# Could Itachi actually beat Jiraiya?



## N4GAmbush (Dec 25, 2013)

I believe I have found sufficient evidence to prove one and for all that the legendary Itachi Uchiha was capable of defeating the beloved Jman.

Let us consider this. 

When Itachi and Kisame were sent by Nagato to hold off  team Kakashi and team Guy, they were asked for 30% of their chakra so he could make an elaborate clone of them. If you read the description on the Shapeshifting Technique, it says:
"The power of the copy is in proportion to the volume of allocated chakra, which is decided by Pain. "

I'll come back to this in a second. Read this first: 
* he probably holds a significant strength advantage as well*
(In case the link get's broken it's Naruto Shippuden: Chapter 259: Page 7)

Itachi states that he is incapable of using Tsukuyomi. Why? Simply because it requires too much chakra (at least 30%) Keep in mind that that is after the time-skip as well.

If you examine the confrontation between Jiraiya and Itachi in the manga (pre-timeskip) the conversation between Kisame and Itachi will go like this: (after the battle)

Kisame: "You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know"..."Our levels are too far apart"

Itachi: "Yeah... If we fought him we might both be killed. If it goes well we might take him with us. Even if the number of people were to increase this probably wouldn't change."

Kisame: "It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is one of those Legendary Three Ninja"

Itachi: "Yes... However"..."No matter how strong a person is he is bound to have a weakness."

Keep in mind that the conversation is in past-tense, indicated by the words "fought" and "found".

Going back to what I've said earlier, we've established precisely how much chakra tsukuyomi costs (around 30%). If you recall correctly, Itachi used Tsukuyomi to paralyze Kakashi only shortly before his short battle with Sasuke. There goes 30%. Itachi then decided to use Tsukuyomi again on his brother to make him resent him more and give him incentive to get stronger. Itachi has now used at least 60% of his chakra by using one of his most taxing abilities, twice. 

Naruto then decides to be stupid and get in the way, giving Jiraiya the opportunity to aide in the fight as well. 

Here's were we break again--

After the revelations that we now know  about Itachi and how he never wanted to 
*Spoiler*: __ 



harm the village or kill Naruto


 in the first place, it wouldn't make any sense for him to even suggest fighting against Jiraiya. The smartest move was for him to, at this point, run away as to avoid killing eachother. The reason Itachi went to Konohagakure in the first place was:

"After the Invasion of Konoha and the death of Hiruzen, Itachi infiltrated Konoha with Kisame to use his presence to remind Danzō, Homura and Koharu that he was still alive and to not think of harming Sasuke. Itachi used Akatsuki's goal of capturing Naruto to disguise his true intentions in order to keep his cover intact. "

So the idea of Itachi wanting to actually collect Naruto is complete trash, considering that it wasn't his true intention at all. Unfortunately for Itachi, Kisame was a dedicated member of the Akatsuki and had to be manipulated as for him to avoid any unnecessary casualties (Like Naruto) 

The way Itachi responed to Kisame makes perfect sense as he basically said "Yes, if we fought him we would die, that's a bad idea, let's not even think of going back with more people as it won't matter" and made it seem like getting Naruto at that time would be a bad idea. This is simply Itachi being deceitful, protecting the village from the shadows. 

To continue: 

The above section was just to prove Itachi's unwillingness to actually fight Jiraiya. Why would he purposely fight Jiraiya when he surely knew how important he was to the village and to Naruto? 

Also, he HAD to know about Jman. Here's proof:

"Even from a young age, Itachi was noted to be wise beyond his years and spent much of his time researching the history of the village from the writings their ancestors left behind. From this, by the age of seven, his understanding of the world was on par with that of a Hokage." -Narutopedia 

Now to further stress his exhaustion:

We've now established that Itachi only had about 40% of his chakra reserve left after using tsukuyomi twice. Nobody in the right mind would engage in a fight with Jiraiya if they were that low on chakra, that's suicide(especially with low reserves like Itachi's). To top it off, Itachi had to use his highest level ninjutsu, amaterasu, to escape from the stomach of the toad Jiraiya summoned. It is said that amaterasu puts a considerable amount of strain on the user, but doesn't specify to what extent. I'm going to assume that the technique would require a similar amount of chakra, especially considering that the black flames cannot be extinguished and is Itachi's best ninjutsu. To be fair I will say that it would have cut him off at least another 15% but I'll get the exact amount tomorrow after I review the fights between Itachi and Sasuke and maybe Sasuke and Killer B as a reference. 

With this calculation, Itachi's chakra was down to at least 25% (100-30-30-15) or possibly 10% if amaterasu is in fact equal to tsukuyomi. 

The fact that Itachi stated that they may still be able to end the fight in a draw at that state is what intrigues me the most as he would have to be extremely careful about what he did and when. 

With all of this evidence I believe it's safe to say that Itachi backed out of the fight between himself and Jiraiya not because Jman was the greater threat, but because A.) Itachi didn't want to fight him in the first place and B.) Didn't have enough energy to fight him anyways.

I do apologize if I didn't satisfy some of my readers however, I found this evidence to be of great significance. I didn't go into abilities at all but I would be happy to discuss those as well to further prove that Itachi could beat Jiraiya. Tell me your thoughts (:


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## Nikushimi (Dec 25, 2013)

Most people know by now that Itachi can beat Jiraiya even when sick, badly injured, and almost out of chakra, thanks to Susano'o. Starting fresh, Itachi could off him with Genjutsu and a kunai. Jiraiya is Orochimaru's peer, and Orochimaru barely qualifies as a morning workout for Itachi.

This was a very elaborate trolling attempt, though; I will give you that much.


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## Csdabest (Dec 25, 2013)

Dude Jiraiya Sucks at genjutsu. Itachi points at him and its GG pretty much. Itachi was handeling SM Genetically enhance Kabuto. While protecting sasuke. Yeah he took his licks but only because he was protecting Sasuke. Jiraiya will get faded


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## N4GAmbush (Dec 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> This was a very elaborate trolling attempt, though; I will give you that much.



Yeah... I wasn't trolling. There's just too many people on here saying that Jiraiya would stomp Itachi in SM when the truth is, there's absolutely nothing Jman could do against him. But thanks, I spent like 2 hours writing this xD


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## Nikushimi (Dec 25, 2013)

N4GAmbush said:


> Yeah... I wasn't trolling. There's just too many people on here saying that Jiraiya would stomp Itachi in SM when the truth is, there's absolutely nothing Jman could do against him. But thanks, I spent like 2 hours writing this xD



There are only like four people on the internet NF who think Jiraiya can beat Itachi--three of them hate Itachi's guts and one of them just bases everything he believes in on an out-of-context interpretation of Itachi's comment about fighting Jiraiya back in part 1.

Everyone else pretty much says base Jiraiya>Itachi as a joke.



Rocky said:


> Base Jiraya soul rips.



Base Jiraiya eats a crow.


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## N4GAmbush (Dec 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> There are only like four people on the internet NF who think Jiraiya can beat Itachi--three of them hate Itachi's guts and one of them just bases everything he believes in on an out-of-context interpretation of Itachi's comment about fighting Jiraiya back in part 1.
> 
> Everyone else pretty much says base Jiraiya>Itachi as a joke.
> 
> ...



Yeah, dude. I literally just tried explaining why that quote in part one is null and void because Itachi was obviously exhausted when he said it.


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## Ersa (Dec 25, 2013)

Sick Itachi is SM Jiraiya's equal but in most cases will come out on top due to Susanoo, Edo Itachi steamrolls SM Jiraiya low difficulty at worst. However if Jiraiya stays in base then Itachi will need Kisame and the Pein Rikudo to force a stalemate.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 25, 2013)

Yomi Numa was made to counter Susano. Anyone who suggests otherwise does not understand physics. 

He cannot defeat Jiraiya in any mode because he lacks a logical counter to his most powerful technique, which is manifested in a single seal.

I hate nothing more than a sloppy ass essay with the premise of fanboying Itachi. All of it was worthless, as it usually is. The dome understands Itachi's power scale at this point, and it is not on the level of this Sage.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 25, 2013)

No matter what you do, there will always be a debate. No if ands or buts. That's how Itachi vs Anyone works.


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## Bonly (Dec 25, 2013)

It's clear that Itachi could beat Jiraiya but whether one thinks he wins more times then not is another thing. So far I have only see that one guy who constantly makes dupe(forgot his first account name) and Ellia(or however his name is spelt, to lazy to go look) say he never has a chance to win.


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## Turrin (Dec 25, 2013)

This again...

Can Itachi beat Jiraiya, sure, but Jiriaya can also beat Itachi. It's as simple as that.


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## Trojan (Dec 25, 2013)

itachi is better shinobi than Hashirama.
Jirayia defeated Juubito.

See the different?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 25, 2013)

A healthy Itachi is around Jiraiya's level, so the regular Itachi has a shot.

However a sick Itachi probably wouldn't have a shot, if Jiraiya got into SM.

Edo Itachi, whose far superior to a healthy Itachi, he has more than a mere shot to beat Jiraiya.

As for the fanon Itachi... he solos. :ignoramus


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## ueharakk (Dec 25, 2013)

finger genjutsu gg is the equivalent of saying jiraiya turns susanoo into a frog.

their abilities while living puts them at rough equals.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> finger genjutsu gg is the equivalent of saying jiraiya turns susanoo into a frog.



Frog transformations was never shown working on chakra constructs. Finger genjutsu works on people, and Jiraiya immediately knowing he's in an illusion is a biased assertion.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Edo Itachi, whose far superior to a healthy Itachi, he has more than a mere shot to beat Jiraiya.



All Edos underperform from their prime in life.​


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## Trojan (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> All Edos underperform from their prime in life.​




Do you REALLY believe in this?​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> All Edos underperform from their prime in life.​



Only if stated as is the case with the Senju bros and Rikudou Madara. Or if they possessed the Rinnegan, rather a fake Edo Rinnegan.

Though, dunno about you but not huffing and puffing after using the MS twice (as an Edo) sounds like a massive over performance relative to their prime in life.


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## ueharakk (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Frog transformations was never shown working on chakra constructs. Finger genjutsu works on people, and Jiraiya immediately knowing he's in an illusion is a biased assertion.​


Frog transformations were never shown to not work on chakra constructs just like finger genjutsu was never shown to not work on someone of jiraiya's calibre which is the only reason why you can even postulate the argument that it beats him or even is a factor in a match against him.



Elia said:


> Do you REALLY believe in this?



he obviously doesn't which is why whenever I or anybody brings up people other than sasori or deidara, he gets quiet or conveniently forgets about the explicitly stated/shown reasons for them under performing.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 25, 2013)

Jiraiya's ninjutsu was never shown to work on anybody at "Itachi's caliber." I guess Itachi's immune to his ninjutsu! Oh wait. That's not adequate reasoning by any stretch.

Unless Jiriaya has special eyeballs or is so hyper-observant that even Itachi's hyped genjutsu talent can't manufacture a realistic enough illusion to fool him, then the genjutsu works on him.

Hell, even if Jiriaya did realize he was in an illusion immediately (hint: he wouldn't,) he still wouldn't have time to kai out before the shuriken found their way into his brain.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> None of Jiraiya's ninjutsu has worked on anybody near "Itachi's caliber."
> 
> Herpa derpa lerpa, I guess base Itachi's immune.



Didn't base Kakashi keep up with base Itachi?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Didn't base Kakashi keep up with base Itachi?



Base Kakashi (back then) couldn't even get an ambush off on a 30% dying clone of base Itachi.

Kakashi then used Naruto's help, who in turn had used Chiyo and Sakura's help, all against someone's 30% clone that Chiyo would later state was clearly only stalling.​


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## ueharakk (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> None of Jiraiya's ninjutsu has worked on anybody near "Itachi's caliber."
> 
> Herpa derpa lerpa, I guess base Itachi's immune.


Except ninjutsu working isn't calibre based since you can directly compare them to the abilities that the one its being used on displays.  

Genjutsu working obviously is which is why the manga consistently shows that the higher calibre a person is, the harder it is to get them in genjutsu and more powerful genjutsu is required to do so.

Also even your own biased logic fails as Jiraiya's ninjutsu worked on someone not only near, but ABOVE itachi's calibre (pain/nagato), so it would most definitely work against itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 25, 2013)

C using genjutsu successfully on Taka destroys that sad excuse of an "argument." Sorry. You don't get to allow your brain to short-circuit and claim genjutsu isn't mechanically-based like ninjutsu.

In before someone claims C is a better genjutsu user than Itachi, because that's clearly what the author believes.​


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## ueharakk (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> C using genjutsu successfully on Taka destroys that sad excuse of an "argument." Sorry. You don't get to allow your brain to short-circuit and claim genjutsu isn't mechanically-based like ninjutsu.​



Um, how does the elite kage guard and sensor, C successfully using a mere distracting genjutsu on partially transformed kid juugo (one that he didn't even need to kai out of) destroy that argument?  



Strategoob said:


> In before someone claims C is a better genjutsu user than Itachi, because that's clearly what the author believes.




Debate honestly.  Itachi is obviously better than C in genjutsu however, that doesn't mean that ALL of Itachi's genjutsus are better than C's.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Um, how does the elite kage guard and sensor, C successfully using a mere distracting genjutsu on partially transformed kid juugo (one that he didn't even need to kai out of) destroy that argument?



He used it to momentarily trap Sasuke as well, and Sasuke needed rescuing, so that basically destroys the whole tier-based "understanding" of how genjutsu effects people.​


ueharakk said:


> Debate honestly.  Itachi is obviously better than C in genjutsu however, that doesn't mean that ALL of Itachi's genjutsus are better than C's.



Both genjutsu require a small charge time, and one's coming from a vastly superior potrayed genjutsu user. 

Moreover, all genjutsu siezes control of the enemy's chakra system through sensory stimuli. What the user decides to do from that point, and how well they do it, is based entirely on their own skill.

And because Itachi's been hyped to control vastly more individuals' chakra systems though genjutsu at one time, and without sensor's detecting him, it means he's the absolute outlier in that arena.​


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## Trojan (Dec 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> It's clear that Itachi could beat Jiraiya but whether one thinks he wins more times then not is another thing. So far I have only see that one guy who constantly makes dupe(forgot his first account name*) and Ellia(or however his name is spelt, to lazy to go look) say he never has a chance to win*.



Honestly, with the horrible spelling system you people use in your language, how spilling "Elia" is hard. 

Also, I never said he has no chance to win. I just point out that Jiraiya is superior my what you like to call "Our King, Lord Itachi" own mouth. U_U

Thank you. U_U


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Base Kakashi (back then) couldn't even get an ambush off on a 30% dying clone of base Itachi.
> 
> Kakashi then used Naruto's help, who in turn had used Chiyo and Sakura's help, all against someone's 30% clone that Chiyo would later state was clearly only stalling.​



Kakashi kept up fine. 30% is worthless unless you're talking about MS Itachi; it was representative of base Itachi. Base Itachi who performed similarly in part 1... the same Itachi who resorted to the MS to eliminate Kakashi.


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## ueharakk (Dec 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He used it to momentarily trap Sasuke as well, and Sasuke needed rescuing, so that basically destroys the whole tier-based "understanding" of how genjutsu effects people.​


no he didn't sasuke saw right through it and was never implied to have needed saving considering Juugo, who Sasuke warned about it ended up having enough time to intercept Ei's hit on Sasuke.




Strategoob said:


> Both genjutsu require a small charge time, and one's coming from a vastly superior potrayed genjutsu user.
> 
> Moreover, all genjutsu siezes control of the enemy's chakra system through sensory stimuli. What the user decides to do from that point, and how well they do it, is based entirely on their own skill.
> 
> And because Itachi's been hyped to control vastly more individuals' chakra systems though genjutsu at one time, and without sensor's detecting him, it means he's the absolute outlier in that arena.​


that's all irrelevant unless you assert and support the argument that his genjutsu hype comes from finger genjutsu alone.

Sharingan genjutsu as a standalone receives massive hype, so much so that no matter what your skill level avoiding eye contact is a must.  On top of that Itachi's a genjutsu expert which means that massive hype does not apply to his non-sharingan genjutsus.  In addition to that, Shikaku didn't take into account the number of people itachi was controlling when he postulated itachi, the context was the mere range at which they must have been being controlled at not the number at which were being controlled which is why aoba followed up that statement by saying only itachi could control them outside the sensors range.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 25, 2013)

Regular Sharingan genjutsu doesn't have any hype that  regular genjutsu does not. The Sharingan merely allows people that would otherwise be non-genjutsu types to use it (all Sharingan users.) 

This is supported by Jiriaya telling Naruto how to break them and the method for doing so being one in the same and Shikamaru saying sound genjutsu is worse.

Genjutsu is the most difficult of the ninja arts, requiring ultra-precise chakra control and high intellect. Not many are capable of it, and even a legendary Sannin is no good with it.

Moreover, the reveal of Itachi's ephemeral genjutsu is the basis of an entire chapter called "Itachi's Power!" i.e. it epitomizes Itachi's phenomneal genjutsu skill and power. 

So the question isn't which Kages it will work on temporarily, as all genjutsu works temporarily, even C's worked a bit on Taka Sasuke, _but which Kages can *possibly* break out of it_. 

If Hiruzen was trapped by 10% Edo Hashirama's genjutsu, then why would he fare better against the genjutsu legend, Uchiha Itachi? Let alone the dumber Kage with less technical finesse like A.



ueharakk said:


> In addition to that, Shikaku didn't take into account the number of people itachi was controlling



Shikaku obviously took into account the number of controlled ninja during his postulation, because he was trying to explain the phenomenon of the war. Ao argued that the scope was too large for even Itachi, but that was Ao's opinion.

The context was not just range for Ao either, as Ao specifically elaborated that it was the sheer scope of the number of people throughout huge expanses of distance that he considered too much for even Itachi. Not the individual factors, but the two together.



ueharakk said:


> no he didn't sasuke saw right through it and was never implied to have needed saving considering Juugo, who Sasuke warned about it ended up having enough time to intercept Ei's hit on Sasuke.



The Raikage pointblank says Sasuke took too long to see through it.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> it was representative of base Itachi.



Think of this way, Munboy: if sick Itachi made two Kage Bunshin, and sent one to *stall* (not kill) Kakashi, Naruto, Chiyo, and Sakura, then that's exactly what would have happened.

Btw, the clone easily evading the doton ambush and promptly controlling Kakashi's head after seconds of close quarters makes "kept up" rather tentative as well, given it was *stalling*.​


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## Garcher (Dec 26, 2013)

Well Itachi solos him. He simply does the finger genjutsu + kunai gg like on Oro


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi kept up fine. 30% is worthless unless you're talking about MS Itachi; it was representative of base Itachi. Base Itachi who performed similarly in part 1... the same Itachi who resorted to the MS to eliminate Kakashi.



Clones are a major part of base Itachi's arsenal. He couldn't use clones with the shouten. + He was just stalling and wasn't trying to harm them.

Also Kisame stated  that clones strength is also lower than the original. 
So no, it doesn't represent base Itachi, not in capability nor mind  set.


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## ARGUS (Dec 26, 2013)

Itachi is above all the sannin individually 
therefore itachi can defeat jiraiya 
jiraiya cant tank or evade the susanoo arrow nor can he tank or evade amaterasu 
SM gives him the sensing credibility but he doesnt have V2 A's speed to counter it 
Itachi > SM Jiraiya >> Orochimaru (without ET)


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## Ersa (Dec 26, 2013)

Shoten Itachi is not Base Itachi at all. Less chakra for a sick, dying individual is a massive nerf, not only could Itachi not use clones like he normally does (as a tactical fighter this is huge) but he has to conserve chakra for even simple things like Katon and Shunshin. Add on the fact he didn't even want to hurt them in the first place and it hardly reflects base Itachi vs. base Kakashi. 

It's also amusing that certain people say KCM Naruto was massively weakened in the Nagato fight due to not having access to all his chakra yet somehow Shoten Itachi is the same as base Itachi. I love double standards


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## Sans (Dec 26, 2013)

Kisame literally says the Shouten Bunshins physical attributes and jutsu strength is diminished in proportion to the chakra put into it. 

So, no, it's blindingly obvious that wasn't Itachi's full range of abilities excluding the Mangekyou.


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## Mr.Blonde (Dec 26, 2013)

As for the debate itself, Jiraiya is at the very least Itachi's equal, but I'm way past caring. I will say this: while Jiraiya has been dead a long time and Itachi was resurrected, circumstantial evidence that favors Jiraiya has emerged more than once.

- we have two instances of Susano-o users being vulnerable from below, both involving Madara, a superior dojutsu user to Itachi. Is Yomi Numa not the best attack from below in the manga?

- we have sound/vibration attacks fucking the Uchiha brothers up. Are Magen: Gamarinshou and Senpō: Kawazu Naki not the best sound (gen)jutsu in the manga?

- we have Itachi creaming his pants just at the mention of Sage Mode. Is Jiraiya not the best Sa-
Okay, so he's not the best, but he's still a Sage Mode user.

While none of this is necessarily conclusive proof(at this point, after years of debate, only a direct statement from the author will settle it), the fact that the Itachi fanbase is quick to jump on the "at this point everyone knows Itachi>Jiraiya" bandwagon without so much as attempting to address evidence to the contrary is further proof of it being the worst fanbase on the forum.


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## Bonly (Dec 26, 2013)

Elia said:


> Honestly, with the horrible spelling system you people use in your language, how spilling "Elia" is hard.
> 
> Also, I never said he has no chance to win. I just point out that Jiraiya is superior my what you like to call "Our King, Lord Itachi" own mouth. U_U
> 
> Thank you. U_U



There's another user with a similar user name so I wasn't sure if your name had another "L" or not and I was to lazy to look.

Whenever anyone says Itachi can win you just say it isn't canon and continue to shot it down no matter what so you basically saying he never has a chance to win o

But it doesn't matter really


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## Legendary Itachi (Dec 26, 2013)

Desperate Jiraiya fans now calling Itachi fanbase the worst when the best they can say is Base Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame by canon words now? Or Jiraiya > Nagato by Pain's words now? 

Yeah, I guess because Jiraiya deserves all the magical powerup. And we never need debate to judge that Jiraiya > Akatsuki


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Jiraiya most certainly win of be favored in that matchup , 

1. We saw in the Kabuto fight Sage Mode gives MS users trouble 

2. Itachi can't fight a long drawn out battle, his most useful technique in this battle would eventually kill him

that's why he said so himself the best he could do is maybe kill Jiraiya in the process of dying with totsuka sword, the Hebi fight and the Kabuto fight just verified why he couldn't fight Jiraiya at that point in time , Sage Mode is a bad match for him and he was dying of illness.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Think of this way, Munboy: if sick Itachi made two Kage Bunshin, and sent one to *stall* (not kill) Kakashi, Naruto, Chiyo, and Sakura, then that's exactly what would have happened.
> 
> Btw, the clone easily evading the doton ambush and promptly controlling Kakashi's head after seconds of close quarters makes "kept up" rather tentative as well, given it was *stalling*.​



If Itachi's performance suffered, we'd have known. The only performance dent with Shouten Itachi was the lack of MS... apparently base Itachi was alright.

We only know that Itachi tried not to kill Naruto; nothing about Kakashi.

The clone that evaded the Doton fell for Kakashi's feint. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Clones are a major part of base Itachi's arsenal. He couldn't use clones with the shouten. + He was just stalling and wasn't trying to harm them.
> 
> Also Kisame stated  that clones strength is also lower than the original.
> So no, it doesn't represent base Itachi, not in capability nor mind  set.



He was free to use Karasu Bunshins, something better for his chakra levels.
He did use a clone, though.

He was also trying to capture Naruto hence the Genjutsu to try to put Naruto to sleep. 

You're wrong. Kisame said Shouten doesn't represent the power of the original; the original Itachi can use the MS and the shouten cannot. We're still free to infer that base Itachi was unrestricted.


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## Jagger (Dec 26, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Jiraiya most certainly win of be favored in that matchup ,
> 
> 1. We saw in the Kabuto fight Sage Mode gives MS users trouble
> 
> 2. Itachi can't fight a long drawn out battle, his most useful technique in this battle would eventually kill him.



1. Different teachers, different techniques. Kabuto was pretty much built to fight an Uchiha and counter every single one of their techniques (Genjutsu, Susano'O, etc.). Jiraiya really isn't for some reason. Of course, his arsenal is pretty wide, but not exactly to fight an Uchiha.

Edit: Eliyua, did you fvcking put Nagato below Mito?

2. Itachi can end fights quickly, he doesn't really need to use all his MS techniques at once since he doesn't have the luxury to spam them around like his brother.


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## Turrin (Dec 26, 2013)

Mr.Blonde said:


> As for the debate itself, Jiraiya is at the very least Itachi's equal, but I'm way past caring. I will say this: while Jiraiya has been dead a long time and Itachi was resurrected, circumstantial evidence that favors Jiraiya has emerged more than once.
> 
> - we have two instances of Susano-o users being vulnerable from below, both involving Madara, a superior dojutsu user to Itachi. Is Yomi Numa not the best attack from below in the manga?
> 
> ...


I agree w/ this. If anything recent chapters have supported all the points that people used to argue would allow Jiriaya to combat Itachi. While on the other hand there is really nothing in recent chapters that indicates Sick Itachi's odds against Jiriaya are any better. We've only really gotten hype for an Itachi who no longer has any draw backs due to Edo perks and hype for Itachi as someone who is specifically well suited against taking down villains w/ misguided views, which Jiriaya is not.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Is it possible that the rush for Itachi>Jiraiya is there because Jiraiya=Itachi would imply Minato>Itachi?


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## Blu-ray (Dec 26, 2013)

Anyone with a little common sense knows that Itachi is far beyond Jiraiya. The argument used that Jiraiya is above Itachi is one from a decade ago when Itachi had every reason to lie. Feat wise Itachi is blatantly stronger. Itachi already beat Orochimaru with genjutsu and a Kunai, and he was equal to Jiraiya if not superior. Jiraiya also has the same if not less resistance to genjutsu than Orochimaru. Hype is cheap, and if we wanna go that route, there is no better hype than being called invincible, and from someone as credible as Madara's will no less.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He was free to use Karasu Bunshins, something better for his chakra levels.
> He did use a clone, though.


When did he use a clone ? 



> He was also trying to capture Naruto hence the Genjutsu to try to put Naruto to sleep.


Or simply wanted to put him down ? 



> You're wrong. Kisame said Shouten doesn't represent the power of the original; the original Itachi can use the MS and the shouten cannot. We're still free to infer that base Itachi was unrestricted.



Oh, Kisame makes a distinction between chakra levels and their strength though


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## Remsengan (Dec 26, 2013)

Jiraiya would be able to put up resistance with guerrilla tactics and his experience, but Itachi wins in a straight up BD matchup.  I think the odds slightly favor Jman if he had prep and knowledge, which is a very possible scenario in the manga seeing as how Jman had intel on Itachi and Akatsuki without them knowing and well before anyone even knew the organization existed.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 26, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> Anyone with a little common sense knows that Itachi is far beyond Jiraiya. The argument used that Jiraiya is above Itachi is one from a decade ago when Itachi had every reason to lie. Feat wise Itachi is blatantly stronger. Itachi already beat Orochimaru with genjutsu and a Kunai, and he was equal to Jiraiya if not superior. Jiraiya also has the same if not less resistance to genjutsu than Orochimaru. Hype is cheap, and if we wanna go that route, there is no better hype than being called invincible, and from someone as credible as Madara's will no less.



Jiraiya defeated Jyuubito, according to himself, while Itachi was schooled by Tayuya and needed Sasuke to save him


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Jiraiya defeated Jyuubito, according to himself, while Itachi was schooled by Tayuya and needed Sasuke to save him



I wonder what Tayuya would do to Hashirama then, given she schooled a better shinobi than him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did he use a clone ?



My mistake, he didn't. 

However clones aren't a massive part of base Itachi's style; you're thinking of Naruto. 
Itachi's clone use is similar to Kakashi's.



> Or simply wanted to put him down ?



That still suggests he was following his "capture the Kyuubi" orders. Ergo, not stalling primarily. Stalling was the benefit following his orders brought.



> Oh, Kisame makes a distinction between chakra levels and their strength though



Clearly base Itachi doesn't utilise chakra draining jutsu as often as you implied. As for strength: MS is a huge distinction between Itachi and the fake.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 26, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I wonder what Tayuya would do to Hashirama then, given she schooled a better shinobi than him



she would do nothing because being a better shinobi is not being a stronger shinobi


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 26, 2013)

I don't understand why people keep doing this. At this point, I doubt anyone's opinions on the matter will change. We've seen what both have to offer. We've had quite a few threads already discussing the topic, so I heavily doubt that there will be any new information regarding this fight.

In short, we've seen what everybody thinks, and it's pointless to try to convince anyone. I will say this, though, some of your arguments give me quite the chuckle.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Jagger said:


> 1. Different teachers, different techniques. Kabuto was pretty much built to fight an Uchiha and counter every single one of their techniques (Genjutsu, Susano'O, etc.). Jiraiya really isn't for some reason. Of course, his arsenal is pretty wide, but not exactly to fight an Uchiha.
> 
> Edit: Eliyua, did you fvcking put Nagato below Mito?
> 
> 2. Itachi can end fights quickly, he doesn't really need to use all his MS techniques at once since he doesn't have the luxury to spam them around like his brother.



1. Same Sage Mode we even saw Itachi feared Kabuto having Sage Mode , Yeah he was built to fight a Uchiha because of Sage Mode and using Sage Mode allowed him to push them as far as he did and he would've won if not for Izanami which is a technique that wouldn't even work on Jiraiya 

2. Itachi would need his MS if he hoped to survive No Susanoo means he gets destroyed and using Susanoo would just kill him.

The problem with this matchup is that you have someone with a shitload of chakra fighting someone who is dying of illness and is already a terrible matchup to boot, this is a bad fight for Itachi and in the end he did the smart thing and flee

Mito is on Nagato's level if not stronger she sealed the entire 9 tails within herself might be one of the most powerful tech in the manga, and she might have been able to use BM considering she could also sense emotions , she's the Hashirama of Uzumaki


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

This was debatable with sick Itachi versus Sage Jiraiya back when the forum didn't think Uchiha could do anything while Susano'o was out and that Itachi's controlling genjutsu was ineffective.

As it stands, Itachi can either blitz base Jiraiya, or genjutsu one of the toads on Sage Jiraiya's shoulder into lopping off his head.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Itachi's performance suffered, we'd have known.



Like if the author said it was a 30% clone (1 of 3 Kage Bunshin) that was only stalling, then revealed that even 100% Itachi was in a severely weakened state due to disease eating away his tissue. 

If he'd only done that, we'd have conclusive proof that Itachi's performance suffered and Kakashi and Naruto's struggle amounted to beating one of sick Itachi's 3 created Kage Bunshin.

That was only stalling.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The clone that evaded the Doton fell for Kakashi's feint



"Falling" for a feint doesn't mean much when a sight blocker is used. Kakashi "fell" for Zabuza's feint. Itachi's clone didn't have the chakra to use one of his own at the time.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Is it possible that the rush for Itachi>Jiraiya is there because Jiraiya=Itachi would imply Minato>Itachi?



Jiraiya = Itachi (backup doesn't changes anything) > Minato
​


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Minato is stronger than both of them his feats in base trump even what Itachi did as an Edo Tensei

being able to defeat Rinnegan Tobi, teleporting a ten tailed beast bomb, ect

Minato>Jiriyia>/=Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

(BM Itachi >) BM Minato > Itachi > Minato



Minato pushed back non-Rinnegan Tobi, but Itachi kept him from even trying.

Obito was also like 15 when he fought Minato (no extra eyes for Izanagi.)



Plus Minato's kind of dumb. (Jiraiya's no better.)



Itachi's likely the smartest and most talented in the manga.


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> BM Minato > Itachi > Minato
> 
> Minato beat non-Rinnegan Tobi, but Itachi kept him from even trying.



oh dear! Your post changed suddenly! But whatever. 

alive Minato() > BM Minato > KCM Minato > Edo Minato > alive itachi () > Edo itachi. 

No, itachi made a deal with obito to not attack konoha, that's all. It was not about itachi's power
or anything as itachi himself admitted that obito is stronger than him.


> Plus Minato's kind of dumb. (Jiraiya's no better.)



here

itachi is also a fool.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

If it were about the deal and not his fear of Itachi's retaliation against Akatsuki if he broke the deal, then Obito wouldn't have gone back on the deal the day Itachi died. 

His betrayal of the deal at the instance shows he never had any honor concerning his promise, but that he simply feared having Itachi as an enemy, as Obito was .​


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If it were about the deal and not the power, then Obito wouldn't have gone back on the deal after Itachi died. It was the consequences of Itachi that kept him from making a move, not the honor of keeping a promise...​



Why wouldn't he do that?  

Itachi did not help when Kakuzu & Hidan were targeting Konoha, did he?  
Actually he himself went their and attacked konoha's jonin and tried to kidnap Naruto!

Edit!
Stop editing your post every second! ~.~


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Kakuzu and Hidan were not targeting Konoha. They were targeting a single Konoha nin to be captured, who Itachi himself had "targeted" before for Akatuski. It's not the same thing as a full scale attack.

I'm also not sure if you know this or are just trolling, but English rappers don't use the term "fool" literally, just like they don't use "dog" literally. Killer Bee called Itachi "brilliant" shortly afterward.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> My mistake, he didn't.
> 
> However clones aren't a massive part of base Itachi's style; you're thinking of Naruto.
> Itachi's clone use is similar to Kakashi's.


Thats true, but still clones are an important part of Kakashi's arsenal as well.

Considering how effectively Itachi uses them, I'd say clones would make a huge difference in "base" Itachi's performance.





> That still suggests he was following his "capture the Kyuubi" orders. Ergo, not stalling primarily. Stalling was the benefit following his orders brought.



I don't get how you came to that conclusion.

Putting someone to sleep would stall them in a more safe manner and probably longer too.



> Clearly base Itachi doesn't utilise chakra draining jutsu as often as you implied. As for strength: MS is a huge distinction between Itachi and the fake.



Kisame specifically said "our strength and* jutsu we can use* are proportionally limited."

He used them seperately.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kakuzu and Hidan were not targeting Konoha. They were targeting a single Konoha nin to be captured, who Itachi himself had "targeted" before for Akatuski. It's not the same thing as a full scale attack.
> 
> I'm also not sure if you know this or are just trolling, but English rappers don't use the term "fool" literally, just like they don't use "dog" literally. Killer Bee called Itachi "brilliant" shortly afterward.​



They killed the monks and they are targeting the most important shinobi in konoha!
Or does itachi think the buildings are more important the the civilians? 

Well, I don't listing to rap or songs, so whatever. Also, B is supposed to be a Japanese, no? 

anyway, it was only to point out that you just used a lame proof. Tobirama did not mean Minato
is stupid, but his naming to jutsus is stupid! So, I put that scan to show you how silly it was to put
what Tobirama said out of context.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Kisame also says beating the clones is *not significant* because their strength *and* jutsu (not just jutsu, sorry) were proportionally reduced, which is what most clone jutsu do to clones.​


Eliyua23 said:


> Strategoob is hilarious I can't even get mad at his Itachi trolling just simply for entertaining purposes



The author dehyped Minato after his awesome entrance. There's an undeniable intelligence and skill difference, Itachi has a better arsenal of jutsu feats, and Itachi's jutsu hype is vastly superior.

Without Kurama, Minato is inferior to him. The only reason people thought Minato was the bee's knees because they assumed he invented Hiraishin and Shiki Fūjin.​


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If it were about the deal and not his fear of Itachi's retaliation against Akatsuki if he broke the deal, then Obito wouldn't have gone back on the deal the day Itachi died.
> 
> His betrayal of the deal at the instance shows he never had any honor concerning his promise, but that he simply feared having Itachi as an enemy, as Obito was .​



He feared Itachi because he had the info on Obito being an accomplice in the Uchiha Massacre , Obito was trying to hide his identity from the world,


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kisame says beating the clones is not significant.
> 
> 
> 
> The author clearly dehyped Minato after his awesome entrance.



So being inferior to Juubito is dehyping him lol

Itachi being more intelligent means little considering there are several other characters who have shown greater intelligence than Minato, doesn't matter just like with Itachi , Minato is stronger than all of them

Minato defeated MS Obito, Rinnegan Obito, defecletd 9-10 tailed beast bombs in base , defeated Kumo bros at once , 

hype, Minato was considered the savior of the world and the greatest ninja Jiraiya or Tsunade has ever seen, he had flee on sight orders from an entire nation lead by Onoki,


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> He feared Itachi because he had the info on Obito being an accomplice in the Uchiha Massacre , Obito was trying to hide his identity from the world,



Is that why he announced his identity to the world after Itachi died? The reason he was hiding in the shadows of even Akatsuki was Itachi. He said that if he hadn't guarded his secrets, Itachi'd kill him.

Which more or less goes to show how little Itachi knew about "Madara," because Obito was so busy staying away from him.​


Eliyua23 said:


> So being inferior to Juubito is dehyping him



Not at all. Tobirama calling Minato mentally challenged and Minato asking for forgiveness is dehyping him.​


Eliyua23 said:


> Minato defeated MS Obito, Rinnegan Obito, defecletd 9-10 tailed beast bombs in base , defeated Kumo bros at once



Minato never beat Rinnegan Obito, unless you mean the weakened one that base Kakashi already soloed? Minato also never fought Kinkaku or Ginkaku, just random Kumo nins.

Minato defeated Mangekyō Obito, but a weaker incarnation that was a young teenager and din't have extra Sharingan to use Izanagi. With Izanagi, it would've been much harder.

Deflecting the bijūdama was cool, but that's not "level," just a unique ability. Otherwise, I could argue that Kakashi trumps BM Minato because Kakashi took Gedō's arm and Minato did nothing.​


Eliyua23 said:


> he had flee on sight orders from an entire nation lead by Onoki



The entire Uchiha clan had flee on sight orders according to Chiyo. I imagine most high Jōnin and Kage level ninja had similar order to not be approached by small numbers of weaker ninja.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats true, but still clones are an important part of Kakashi's arsenal as well.
> 
> Considering how effectively Itachi uses them, I'd say clones would make a huge difference in "base" Itachi's performance.




Like Itachi, clones are important depending on the purpose. Not important as they are for someone like Naruto, for instance.

Clones are things he chooses to use when the situation commands one; apparently the shouten situation didn't command the clone usage. 

Clones aren't a measure on whether or not Itachi was held back.



> I don't get how you came to that conclusion.
> 
> Putting someone to sleep would stall them in a more safe manner and probably longer too.



Itachi's mission happened to be to capture Naruto _alive_. Of course he'd want to ideally make sure Naruto isn't dead.

We've no indication he took such special measures for Kakashi.



> Kisame specifically said "our strength and* jutsu we can use* are proportionally limited."
> 
> He used them seperately.



That still implies MS in Itachi's case. Itachi isn't a Madara Uchiha who uses very high chakra jutsu on a regular basis. If he was then we could generalise that statement to Itachi's base form, otherwise there's no reason to believe it extends past his MS form.


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kisame says beating the clones is not significant.​
> 
> 
> The author clearly dehyped Minato after his awesome entrance. There's an undeniable intelligence difference at this point, Itachi has a better arsenal of feats, and Itachi's jutsu hype is vastly superior.
> ...



OK strategood! 
I was planning to see all the photos that you have for itachi and compare them to Minato 
in the first place, and Jman in the second place. Of course I don't care about itachi as you may
know, so that's part for you.

Let's start with Minato!
I'm not sure how Kishi dehyped him, yes, he surely nerfed him, but still.

Minato:

*Spoiler*: __ 




1- Obito:

*Spoiler*: __ 








2-Naruto

*Spoiler*: __ 













3- A
*Spoiler*: __ 











4- Fodders
*Spoiler*: __ 













5- Minato himself

*Spoiler*: __ 






He could have done what itachi couldn't. 





6- Kushina

*Spoiler*: __ 








7-Tsunade

*Spoiler*: __ 









8- Tobirama

*Spoiler*: __ 













9- Jman

*Spoiler*: __ 












10- Itachi

*Spoiler*: __ 








11- B

*Spoiler*: __ 









12- Anko & Hiruzen

*Spoiler*: __ 








13- Kakashi
*Spoiler*: __ 












Jiraiya

here
here
here
here
here
here

and the famous one. XD

The 10 photos limit is so annoying. -_______-


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

The one that stuck out to me was you saying "He could have done what Itach couldn't." As in, the Hokage had the power to make peace when a 13 year old didn't. You see how that's incongruous?

It's already been stated that Itachi did the best he could, and ended up having to make a hero's sacrifice for Hiruzen and Konoha that had even the god of shinobi humbling himself to honor him.

But yeah, Itachi and Minato have sudh large amounts of hype that it would be pointless to bring it all up rather than just the best. I still think Minato is in the "Ascended" tier in my list in my sig.

I just think the author clearly hinted that Minato has Naruto's propensity to make borderline mentally challenged mistakes in battle and that Itachi is more or less the exact opposite.

So even thought living Itachi and Minato are in the same tier, I'd say Itachi clearly comes out on top due to having more brains, skill, and more hyped jutsu (army controlling genjutsu + legendary items.)​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

How could Itachi be portrayed as superior to Minato, when Itachi said the MS was the *sole* reason Sasuke wouldn't beat him? 

Plus the timing of Naruto>Sasuke was around the time Naruto surpassed base Minato and when Sasuke surpassed Itachi, so that in-itself suggests Minato>Itachi - with, or without, Yin Kurama. 

Though it may imply Jiraiya = Itachi since Naruto surpassed Jiraiya around that time too... Maybe it would've been Naruto = Sasuke had Naruto not surpassed base Minato, but only surpassed Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The one that stuck out to me was saying "he could have done what Itach couldn't."
> 
> As in, the Hokage had the power to do (make peace) what a 13 year old didn't.



Of course it would, it's the whole reason to why I wrote it. 

lol, it's not about the power. Hiruzen was a Hokage yet he couldn't find a solution! 
Neither was the "fool" itachi! Why all his "intelligence"  could not help him to find the answer? 

Edit: 
Tobirama said goofy not mentally ill! 
when he was a kid


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How could Itachi be portrayed as superior to Minato, when Itachi said the MS was the *sole* reason Sasuke wouldn't beat him?



Oh, were using what Itachi told Sasuke as fact now. Kay.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Plus the timing of Naruto>Sasuke was around the time Naruto surpassed base Minato and when Sasuke surpassed Itachi, so that in-itself suggests Minato>Itachi - with, or without, Yin Kurama.



Mangekyō Sasuke and Sage Naruto were said to be equal. Sage Naruto surpassed Minato. Mangekyō Sasuke was last said by Danzō to be like earth below heaven compared to his brother's ability.

Kabuto certainly didn't act like Eternal Mangekyō Sasuke had surpassed his brother either, for that matter. Given Kabuto was wanking Itachi the whole time, not Sasuke.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Though it may imply Jiraiya = Itachi since Naruto surpassed Jiraiya around that time too... Maybe it would've been Naruto = Sasuke had Naruto not surpassed base Minato, but only surpassed Jiraiya.



Fukasaku said Minato was about equal to Jiraiya, as Naruto surpassed them both at the same time. Minato said he couldn't think of a better shinobi than Jiraiya.

Sure, we have evidence that Minato is goofy, mentally challenged, whatever, so maybe he didn't think of himself when saying that, but the Jiraiya = Itachi tripe doesn't exclude Minato.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Elia said:


> That's so confusing. .
> 
> Strategoob
> 
> All that editing that you do drive me crazy.



*I'm* Strategoob? 



Strategoob said:


> Oh, were using what Itachi told Sasuke as fact now. Kay.​



You have you real argument against it.



> Mangekyō Sasuke and Sage Naruto were said to be equal. Sage Naruto surpassed Minato. Mangekyō Sasuke was last said by Danzō to be like earth below heaven compared to one of his brother's abilities
> 
> And we know at the time, his Susano'o form was inferior, and lacked legendary items. And Sasuke's general intellect in approaching some of those battles was way below Itachi's level to boot.
> 
> Basically, taking Shī seeing Kagutsuchi for the first time and wondering why Itachi could do that stuff with black fire isn't the same thing as Fukasaku's statement of Naruto "surpassing the ones before."​



Zetsu never said they were equal. Furthermore Danzo never said Itachi was above Sasuke.

It was amazing, with an inferior Susanoo, Kishi considered Sasuke>Itachi. That only furthers the Sasuke>Itachi argument. The fact Kishi placed Sasuke vs higher level opponents, whilst receiving less help, supports that too.

Take that and put it together with Itachi's own words about how he's inferior to a MS Sasuke and it is just as good.



> Fukasaku said Minato = Jiraiya, as Naruto surpassed them both at the same time, and Minato said Jiraiya > Minato because Minato said there wasn't a finer shinobi than him.​



Fukasaku never said Minato=Jiraiya, just that Naruto surpassed them both. Jiraiya's own words put Minato above himself.

About this part _"Minato said Jiraiya > Minato because Minato said there wasn't a finer shinobi than him."_ Along with the other example when you mistake Danzo comparing Tsukuyomi to Sasuke's normal Genjutsu as Danzo comparing Sasuke and Itachi's overall abilities.

That's very shaky support: considering you purport that they suggest things they don't suggest. 



> Sure, we have manga evidence that Minato is mentally challenged, so maybe he didn't think of himself when saying that, but your pointless Jiraiya = Itachi tripe doesn't exclude Minato by a longshot.



Cute. 

Though it does exclude Minato, the seeds of Jiraiya = Itachi were planted by Itachi himself. The seeds of Minato being above Jiraiya were planted by Jiraiya himself and reinforced by every other instance he was mentioned.

In other to say Minato and Itachi are comparable in power, we need to prove Itachi is above Jiraiya.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Minato's own words put Jiriaya above him. It's what we call a sensei-student circlejerk.

And like I said before, Kabuto was more impressed by Itachi than Eternal Mangekyō Sasuke. Let alone Mangekyō Sasuke, who was equal to Sage Naruto, who was better than Minato and Jiraiya.

Danzō also very clearly didn't think Mangekyō Sasuke was better than Itachi, so I don't know what you're getting at. That was never said, implied, or anything close to it.

"I'm impressed you trapped me in genjutsu. But compared to Itachi's genjutsu, you're like the earth below heaven." 

"Why did you spare him, Itachi? He was your only mistake." 

Etc. You're kidding yourself.​


----------



## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Oh, were using what Itachi told Sasuke as fact now. Kay.​
> 
> 
> Mangekyō Sasuke and Sage Naruto were said to be equal. Sage Naruto surpassed Minato. Mangekyō Sasuke was last said by Danzō to be like earth below heaven compared to his brother's ability.
> ...



 

1- I don't know why people always take that out of context. 

Fukasaku was talking about SM. Jman couldn't perfect it and Minato couldn't learn it. Therefore,
Naruto surpassed both of them because he did what they couldn't do!

2- That's like saying Naruto only surpassed Base Minato & Kushina in chapter
617 when Kurama stated that he surpassed them. 

so did Naruto surpassed base Minato with SM or BM? 
is Minato in the same level as Jman or as Kushina?  

Minato has ALWAYS been Naruto's benchmark since chapter one and up until now. Kishi always
compare him to Minato in every power up that because Naruto is surpassing Minato step by step. 

Examples of those.

1- When Naruto learned FRS Minato's shadow appeared behind him, does that mean he surpassed them completely from back then?

2- When he learned SM he was compared to Minato & Jman. 

3- When he had his flash speed Yamato, A, and Kakashi compared him to Minato again.
That's include KCM and BM.

4- When he learned the transferring chakra Kurama compared him to his parents. 

and so on and so fourth.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Minato's own words put Jiriaya above him. It's what we call a sensei-student circlejerk.
> 
> And like I said before, Kabuto (and the readers) were more impressed by Itachi than EMS Sasuke. Let alone MS Sasuke, who was equal to Sage Naruto, who was better than Minato and Jiraiya.​



Itachi's own words put him below a lot of people; his own words put him on Jiraiya's level; his own words put him beneath MS Sasuke. If we didn't try to apply the characters' words to the context the manga has set out, we'd get clusterfucks like this.

Kabuto was impressed Itachi got out of Edo Tensei. He never considered Itachi's power as the strongest; clearly he felt there were those above him. That's not to say Itachi needs to be the strongest to be praised.
Even though EMS Sasuke is far superior to Itachi, it doesn't mean the latter can't be praised. 

Either way the manga still suggests Minato>Jiraiya=Itachi. Something we can infer from Zetsu's _actual_ words alongside manga statements about Minato, particularly those from Jiraiya.



> Danzō also very clearly didn't think Mangekyō Sasuke was better than Itachi, so I don't know what you're getting at. That was never said, implied, or anything close to it.
> 
> "I'm impressed you trapped me in genjutsu. But compared to Itachi's genjutsu, you're like the earth below heaven."
> 
> ...



You're mistaken. He thought Itachi's _Tsukuyomi_ (you left out Tsukuyomi and put "Genjutsu" in) was far better than Sasuke's generic Genjutsu. 

The part in bold is meaningless in this discussion.

If the "etc" is anything like you've provided thus far, I'd say you're not going to make a convincing case.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi's own words put him below a lot of people; his own words put him on Jiraiya's level



Was Minato also a double agent trying to get out of helping Akatsuki in that instance? Didn't think so. Also, Itachi was talking about Kurama's power, not base Jiraiya's power. 

Only Kurama is believably taking on Itachi, Kisame, and more backup. Not the Sannin who has less rep than Orochimaru, who Akatsuki knows an 11 year old Itachi completely punked.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> his own words put him beneath MS Sasuke.



Saying Sasuke stood no chance against him without a Mangekyō isn't the same as saying he's weaker than Mangekyō Sasuke. Even the fake evil Itachi planned to beat Mangekyō Sasuke.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Either way the manga still suggests Minato>Jiraiya=Itachi. Something we can infer from Zetsu's actual words alongside manga statements about Minato, particularly those from Jiraiya.



Zetsu called Itachi completely invincible, offensively and defensively. He also said sick Itachi fought as if he had started the fight with severe injuries. Don't pretend like you listen to Zetsu now.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Was Minato also a double agent trying to get out of helping Akatsuki in that instance?



Tell me you're attempting to hide behind the old "but he was lying" cop out. 



> Saying Sasuke stood no chance against him without a Mangekyō isn't the same as saying he's weaker than Mangekyō Sasuke.



He said the *only reason Sasuke wouldn't win* was due the the lack of MS. That's Kishi telling us MS Sasuke>MS Itachi.



> Zetsu called Itachi completely invincible, offensively and defensively. He also said Sick itachi fought as if he had started the fight with severe injuries. Don't pretend like you listen to Zetsu now.



Minato was called someone who couldn't be surpassed, Pain was called a God, Madara an invincible immortal... like I said put the statements in context to avoid cluster fucks. 

Actually I listen to _all_ of Zetsu's words. He said the *only* things wrong with Itachi was his inability to dodge a rigged shuriken and the fact he coughed blood. Nothing else, amigo.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

> Is that why he announced his identity to the world after Itachi died? The reason he was hiding in the shadows of even Akatsuki was Itachi. He said that if he hadn't guarded his secrets, Itachi'd kill him.



No he waited until after Itachi died , because Itachi had the info that could've exposed him as the atakuski leader, the only reason he exposed himself was because after Nagato died he had to capture the tailed beast so he used Madara's rep to start a war, No if he hadn't know about Izanagi he would've killed him, Obito was running the show , why would he fear Itachi when he could've had 7 members just destroy Itachi anytime he became expendable.



> Which more or less goes to show how little Itachi knew about "Madara," because Obito was so busy staying away from him.[/indent]



How was Obito staying away from him,when they massacred the clan together.




> Not at all. Tobirama calling Minato mentally challenged and Minato asking for forgiveness is dehyping him.​



That was a joke





> Minato never beat Rinnegan Obito, unless you mean the weakened one that base Kakashi already soloed? Minato also never fought Kinkaku or Ginkaku, just random Kumo nins.​




Rinnegan Obito was marked with the tag , so Minato could've killed him at any point before he became the Juubi Jin, Kumo Bros are Bee and Ei who are brothers that reside from Kumo.



> Minato defeated Mangekyō Obito, but a weaker incarnation that was a young teenager and din't have extra Sharingan to use Izanagi. With Izanagi, it would've been much harder.


 
How was he weaker Obito was dominating Bee,Gai,Kakashi,Naruto with the exact same technique Minato countered in seconds, even if he had another eye that would only mean Izanagi once and he still couldn't hit Minato due to FTG




> Deflecting the bijūdama was cool, but that's not "level," just a unique ability. Otherwise, I could argue that Kakashi trumps BM Minato because Kakashi took Gedō's arm and Minato did nothing.



Currently Minato is without a arm and at the end of the day Kakashi failed where as Minato succeeded , and that would be wrong because Kakashi tried to Kamui the whole Juubi failed and only got an arm, Minato succeeded both times saving the alliance, and Kakashi with that same Kamui struggled with Obito with BM Naruto, Bee, Gai as back up, if you want to say in said scenario he would prove more useful sure, but Minato destroys Kakashi with feats





> The entire Uchiha clan had flee on sight orders according to Chiyo. I imagine most high Jōnin and Kage level ninja had similar order to not be approached by small numbers of weaker ninja.​




Not by an entire nation lead by one of the strongest characters in the manga​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 26, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]45mMioJ5szc[/YOUTUBE]

Thats why Itachi is the best 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Like Itachi, clones are important depending on the purpose. Not important as they are for someone like Naruto, for instance.
> 
> Clones are things he chooses to use when the situation commands one; apparently the shouten situation didn't command the clone usage.
> 
> Clones aren't a measure on whether or not Itachi was held back.



Normally I'd agree with you.
But we are talking about a base Itachi here. 

Crow and exploding bunshins are valuable assets of his base arsenal.




> Itachi's mission happened to be to capture Naruto _alive_. Of course he'd want to ideally make sure Naruto isn't dead.
> 
> We've no indication he took such special measures for Kakashi.



Well, he tried to genjutsu Kakashi as well.

But my question is, why does putting NAruto to sleep have anything to do with capturing him ?

I don't see a correlation there.
Itachi is a genjutsu user, sleep genjutsu is an effective way of puıtting an enemy out of the fight.



> That still implies MS in Itachi's case. Itachi isn't a Madara Uchiha who uses very high chakra jutsu on a regular basis. If he was then we could generalise that statement to Itachi's base form, otherwise there's no reason to believe it extends past his MS form.



I am not sure. 
He states that the jutsu they can use are limited. 
Then he also says their strength is limited.

It is no brainer that a person who has a limitation on the amount of jutsu he can use will have his overall strength reduced.

Either Kisame is retarded, or strength and the jutsu they can use are independant from each other.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Normally I'd agree with you.
> But we are talking about a base Itachi here.
> 
> Crow and exploding bunshins are valuable assets of his base arsenal.



I agree on crow, but exploding clones are something he only used *once*... he doesn't deem it as valuable. Going by his performance with Bee, Naruto and Kakashi (part 2), he uses it on a "need-to-do" basis. 
Meaning if he didn't use them, he didn't feel he needed to.



> Well, he tried to genjutsu Kakashi as well.
> 
> But my question is, why does putting NAruto to sleep have anything to do with capturing him ?
> 
> ...



He didn't try to put Kakashi to sleep with Genjutsu. As for Naruto, Naruto at that point was considered weak in Itachi's eyes. So low level Genjutsu would logically immobilise him... we cannot forget he was acting as a member of Akatsuki. Obviously implying he was fighting with the intent to capture Naruto, which would stall Team Kakashi anyway.



> I am not sure.
> He states that the jutsu they can use are limited.
> Then he also says their strength is limited.
> 
> ...



Why does it have to include their base forms? In Kisame's case you could understand as a chakra beast would naturally have a lot of high chakra taxing attacks.

However the only thing Itachi has that is chakra taxing is the MS, the only thing he said he wouldn't use because he couldn't. His fireball was considered to be the real deal by Kakashi, so that in-itself suggests base Itachi wasn't limited.

Besides, Itachi's power isn't mostly from his base. So why does the statement have to apply to his base when his main power, the MS, was capped?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Alright, I'm tired, everybody. Lol. Thanks for debating with me, it was fun. Suffice it to say that I think living Itachi and Minato's abilities are in the same tier, with Itachi having the edge because Itachi's more diverse in abilities and style.

However, Minato being stated to be the progenitor of Naruto's silly mistakes in battles makes me think Itachi's trickiness would be successful against him and give Itachi the win.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, I'm pooped, everybody. Lol. Thanks for debating with me, it was fun. Suffice it to say that I think living Itachi and Minato's abilities are in the same tier, with Itachi having the edge.
> 
> However, Minato being stated to be the progenitor of Naruto's silly mistakes in battles makes me think Itachi's trickiness would be successful.​



Even though Minato was able to understand Obito's Kamui's mechanisms in-battle. IIRC Itachi couldn't at all*; Kakashi wasn't able too till after his encounter with him. 

*Hence he kept away from him.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even though Minato was able to understand Obito's Kamui's mechanisms in-battle. IIRC Itachi couldn't at all*; Kakashi wasn't able too till after his encounter with him.
> 
> *Hence he kept away from him.



Eh.

The databook makes it clear that Obito never let Itachi fight him or see Kamui, and Obito says that if he hadn't guarded that secret carefully, he was sure Itachi would kill him.

The author clearly hyped Itachi's ability to find weaknesses in techniques, like Rinnegan shared vision, so even _you_ should agree that Itachi would match *Fū and Torune* in deduction of Kamui... 

~

Similarly, the author wrote a movie where Itachi figured out a way around Kamui or the ghost-state instantly upon rescuing Sakura, and Obito said "you're trouble here too" before warping away.​


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## Ersa (Dec 26, 2013)

Yeah, considering Itachi managed to quickly figure out Rinnegan's shared vision in a brief moment when it took two Ancient Sages and someone as experienced as Jiraiya several bouts to notice is a testament to Itachi's analytical skills. Kakashi is superior to Itachi when it comes to tactics but he's inferior when it comes to insight by feats, he would have figured out Kamui faster I feel. But he never got the same opportunity as Minato and Kakashi.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

If Kakashi were superior in tactics, he'd use genjusu more. 

If you mean clone feints, they're about equal. In part one, Kakashi intercepted Itachi's clone feint _on Kurenai_ with his own, an advantage Itachi mitigated with an explosive bunshin.

In part two, that was already an Itachi clone with a small fraction of chakra i.e. as if Itachi had created three Kage Bunshin and only let one of them fight, so it couldn't exactly create more clones.​


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## Ersa (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If Kakashi were superior in tactics, he'd use genjusu more.
> 
> If you mean clone feints, they're about equal. In part one, Kakashi intercepted Itachi's clone feint _on Kurenai_ with his own, an advantage Itachi mitigated with an explosive bunshin.
> 
> In part two, that was already an Itachi clone with a small fraction of chakra i.e. as if Itachi had created three Kage Bunshin and only let one of them fight, so it couldn't exactly create more clones.​


You can't use it more if you lack the skills to do it 

I agree they are similar in clone feints, Itachi is somewhat more efficient in that regard considering his sickness. No what I feel gives Kakashi the edge is we always see him plan out his attack, using a combination of clones, ninjutsu and occasionally MS to get to where he wants. Itachi's tactics are no less clever but he's shown less (although both have shown some pretty smart tactics) so I'd favour Kakashi simply because there's more to work with.

Although if it came down to who is more intelligent overall, Itachi is the clear victor. Similar tactics, better insight, Hokage level wisdom, more knowledge  and he can read people's hearts.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

I believe when it comes to tactics Kakashi and Itachi are about even maybe slight edge to Kakashi, what sets Itachi apart from other shinobi, is his wisdom,knowledge of the shin obi world and his keen insight ,


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Eh.
> 
> The databook makes it clear that Obito never let Itachi fight him or see Kamui, and Obito says that if he hadn't guarded that secret carefully, he was sure Itachi would kill him.
> 
> ...



When did the databook say that. Also he was sure Itachi's Fuuinjutsu would've killed him, *not* Itachi. 

The author hyped no such thing. He only pointed out that Itachi saw CT's weakness -- much later said no-one beats Kakashi* in that regard. Itachi and Nagato were talking about a lot of things, so it is probable Itachi knew of shared vision that way. He seemed to tell Nagato that Koto worked as if Nagato knew.

*Kakashi who actually figured Kamui out.

Fuu and Tourne required both of them together to figure out Kamui in one fight. Something Kakashi didn't do; Kishi said no-one beats Kakashi on jutsu analysis... from a character (Gai) who knows Itachi.

~

You're seeing things that aren't there. Kishi didn't write a movie where Itachi saw through Kamui. The "you're trouble here too" doesn't reference Itachi's power.

Besides if Itachi is capable of this then Jiraiya, his equal, is capable of doing things on Minato's tier.



Strategoob said:


> If Kakashi were superior in tactics, he'd use genjusu more. ​



Kakashi has a 3 out of 5 in stamina though... Itachi has a 2.5 out of 5 for stamina (comparable to the women and children of the manga).

That in-itself suggests _why_ he uses Genjutsu more.


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## Turrin (Dec 26, 2013)

The dick measuring contest between Itachi nonsense hype vs Minato nonsense hype in this thread was hilarious. I don't get why anyone cares so much about Base Minato vs Itachi anyway. The manga makes it abundantly clear that Minato will always be ahead of Itachi by a large margin the moment Minato was given Yin Kurama. So basically Minato supports won the argument of Minato vs Itachi almost a year ago & anyone who doesn't admit that is just trolling anyway. So let' the Itachi-fans believe whatever they want about Base Minato, I mean at this point it's like beating a wounded dog.


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The dick measuring contest between Itachi nonsense hype vs Minato nonsense hype in this thread was hilarious. I don't get why anyone cares so much about Base Minato vs Itachi anyway. The manga makes it abundantly clear that Minato will always be ahead of Itachi by a large margin the moment Minato was given Yin Kurama. So basically Minato supports won the argument of Minato vs Itachi almost a year ago & anyone who doesn't admit that is just trolling anyway. So let' the Itachi-fans believe whatever they want about Base Minato, I mean at this point it's like beating a wounded dog.



How could you say itachi's hype is nonsense? 
Minato has no feats with KCM. 

oh Dear! Fu*k me! I lost my mind


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Turrin completely misunderstands why Itachi fans are Itachi fans. It's not chakra power or jutsu. If it were jutsu, all Itachi fans would be Sasuke fans. Sasuke has cooler versions of the same jutsu.

People like Itachi because of the individual. The ninja skill, intellect, insight, and developmental strength he epitomized. 

Itachi took fundamental shinobi skills and honed them to the max, like Prime Hiruzen before him. His true draw is his supernatural focus on developing his talent, not his Mangekyō Sharingan.

He worked harder than Lee and smarter than Shikamaru to develop his ninjutsu seal speed, genjutsu talent, weapon skill, etc. That's why he surpassed the Uchiha and Sannin in ninja proficiencies as a child. 



Minato doesn't come close to what makes Itachi fascinating. Back when he was thought to have invented Hiraishin, Shiki Fūjin, and _*not*_ share Naruto's miscalculations in battle, he did, but not anymore...

Now the closest person to contending with what makes Itachi enigmatic is Kakashi, but I don't need to go into the age and skill difference to show why Itachi's still the outlier there.​


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## Krippy (Dec 26, 2013)

I have yet to see anyone explain how if Orochimaru is clearly superior to how he stands a chance against itachi who can kill him before he reaches SM.

Orochimaru ~ Jiraiya
Itachi ~ Minato

Itachi fights on a different level from any of the sannin


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> I have yet to see anyone explain how if Orochimaru is clearly superior to how he stands a chance against itachi who can kill him before he reaches SM.
> 
> Orochimaru ~ Jiraiya
> Itachi ~ Minato
> ...




No actually its more like 

Orochimaru~Minato

Jiraiya~Itachi


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The dick measuring contest between Itachi nonsense hype vs Minato nonsense hype in this thread was hilarious. I don't get why anyone cares so much about Base Minato vs Itachi anyway. The manga makes it abundantly clear that Minato will always be ahead of Itachi by a large margin the moment Minato was given Yin Kurama. So basically Minato supports won the argument of Minato vs Itachi almost a year ago & anyone who doesn't admit that is just trolling anyway. So let' the Itachi-fans believe whatever they want about Base Minato, I mean at this point it's like beating a wounded dog.



Minato's hype isn't nonsense , his hype has been backed by feats and aren't taken out of context like Itachi's hype


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## Krippy (Dec 26, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> No actually its more like
> 
> Orochimaru~Minato
> 
> Jiraiya~Itachi



Not according to the manga.


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## YukazuTango (Dec 26, 2013)

I pray that this thread battle is a joke. 

Itachi ends with  Amateratsu using his Sharingan. Jiraiya has the one of the phoniest jutsus that I think of.

Or he can Susano'o the fuq out of Jiraiya. Jiraiya uses his rasengan shit just like naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Not according to the manga.



The manga doesn't suggest Itachi~Minato either, in terms of power.


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## Turrin (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Turrin completely misunderstands why Itachi fans are Itachi fans. It's not chakra power or jutsu. If it were jutsu, all Itachi fans would be Sasuke fans. Sasuke has cooler versions of the same jutsu.
> 
> People like Itachi because of the individual. The ninja skill, intellect, insight, and developmental strength he epitomized.
> 
> ...



Lol strategoob, your not convincing me that it isn't a matter of power. The Itachi-fan base used to be small until it was confirmed he was stronger than Orochimaru and started busting out Hax Jutus. All the intellect and cunning of Itachi and everything else was evident before this point, but the bandwagon didn't begin until than. Additionally if Itachi-fans didn't care about Itachi's strength they wouldn't be constantly posting threads asserting how strong they feel he is, whether they be reasonable threads or ones that are completely nonsense based. We wouldn't see Itachi-fans getting so upset when someone thinks X-character is stronger than him, that they feel the need to make tons of new threads w/ bias conditions in favor of Itachi to try and prove his superiority. It wouldn't be the case where 90% of the time that Itachi-fans talk about the qualities that you highlighted that it's in direct response to the issue of strength, I.E. your posts in this thread saying you think Itachi is stronger than Minato because he's more intelligent, cunning, whatever.

So it's ether they like him because of his strength or like him because they can troll w/ threads about his strength. Ether way it has little to nothing to do w/ the qualities you mentioned. 

I'm a fan of Hanzo for qualities that make up his character, yet I did not become a fan of Hanzo when he was at the peak of his hype in the manga, I became a fan of his when he was being beaten by Mifune. I do not come in here making a million repetitive thread asserting Hanzo's strength across every subsection of the Naruto forum. I do not feel the need to make a million bias BD matches every time someone thinks a character can beat Hanzo in the BD. I do not get upset to the point of attacking someone any-time they don't think Hanzo can win against other fan favorite characters. Same thing can be said about Sasori or Konan, who are also two of my favorite characters. 

That's the clear difference between fans of character for certain qualities they possess/character design and those who only care about strength; Itachi-fans. 

As for Minato vs Itachi as a characters. I tend to agree Itachi is a better character than Minato, as Minato is just a Goku clone and there is nothing redeeming about his character outside of FTG and Shiki Fuujin being cool enough techniques. Not to say I specifically care for Itachi, but he's at least a little less stale and played out than Minato's character. But whatever, I still acknowledge that Minato is leagues above any iteration of Itachi; hell I acknowledge that Minato would most likely rape all of my favorite characters and even Base Minato probably beats them all except maybe Mu (& that's a big maybe), because the author clearly has a huge boner for him. Again a major destination between someone who cares about the character's design and Itachi-fans who clearly care about strength above all else. 

But who knows maybe you could prove me wrong by no longer needing to constantly "prove" Itachi strength to the forum in millions of threads, however I seriously doubt you ever will prove me wrong.



Eliyua23 said:


> Minato's hype isn't nonsense , his hype has been backed by feats and aren't taken out of context like Itachi's hype


I didn't mean all of it, I mean the way some instances are being used in this thread, when people were just going back and forth trying to list anything that could possibly be used as hype when taken out of context.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Not according to the manga.



Orochimaru and Minato were both strong candidates for Yondaime Hokage, Minato only won because Orochimaru started to walk down the dark path and Hiruzen questioned his motives for becoming Hokage

Hiruzen and Anko thought that Minato was the only person whom they knew could stand toe to toe with Orochimaru and this was before knowing about Edo Tensei, and not knowing about all of Orochimaru's other juts,

funny how Minato is reinserted in the manga and receives a huge power up then Orochimaru comes back with a power up of his own

shit Orochimaru even countered shika fujin with curse seal

both are known geniuses for their ability to learn/create ninjutsu and take ninjutsu they  learned to greater heights 

Orochimaru was to Hiruzen what Minato was to Jiraiya , 

we can go on all day about the similarities between Itachi and Jiraiya as characters


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Orochimaru and Minato were both strong candidates for Yondaime Hokage, Minato only won because Orochimaru started to walk down the dark path and Hiruzen questioned his motives for becoming Hokage
> 
> Hiruzen and Anko thought that Minato was the only person whom they knew could stand toe to toe with Orochimaru and this was before knowing about Edo Tensei, and not knowing about all of Orochimaru's other juts,
> 
> ...



- Tsunade stated that Hiruzen always wanted Jiraiya to be the 4th. Also, that does not proof anything actually. 

- No, they thought he is the one who can actually defeat Oro. 
- I don't get the power up point and the seal one as well. 
- Similarities does not mean "equal" 
There are tons of characters that similar to Naruto, are all of them as powerful as him?


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Tsunade stated that Hiruzen always wanted Jiraiya to be the 4th. Also, that does not proof anything actually.
> 
> - No, they thought he is the one who can actually defeat Oro.
> - I don't get the power up point and the seal one as well.
> ...



No he didn't he always wanted Jiraiya to succeed him as the 5th Hokage not the 4th, its cannon that he always favored Orochimaru until he went down the dark path


no they didn't guarantee he would win, only that he could stand up to Orochimaru and protect the village

Its just funny how both received  power ups after being reinstated into the manga , their the only past generation characters who aren't villains that have received power ups in the manga, Orochimaru countered an S Rank Uzumaki sealing technique with a sealing of his own.

Didn't say similarities meant equal but Jiraiya and Itachi have a lot of elements in the story that place them around the same level


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 26, 2013)

1) I would have to say I would give Itachi the slightest of advantages now however that does not mean Jiraiya has no shot of killing Itachi

Itachi >= Jiraiya

2) Minato has always been superior to Itachi even before his Edo Tensei form when he access to the kyuubi chakra. Minatos character still sucks 

3) Edo Itachi is not below his living form....Tobirama was talking simply about himself and Hashirama. Now we learn that includes Madara as well. This could also include Nagato imo since the rinnegan was not brought back at full power


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## Trojan (Dec 26, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> No he didn't he always wanted Jiraiya to succeed him as the 5th Hokage not the 4th, its cannon that he always favored Orochimaru until he went down the dark path
> 
> 
> no they didn't guarantee he would win, only that he could stand up to Orochimaru and protect the village
> ...



Raikage's statement
How can he want him to succeed him as the 5th? 
What Tsunade meant from the first part is the elders wanted Jiraiya to be the 5th, but obviously
he refused and Tsunade became the 5th. That has nothing to do with the 3rd. Or at least that
how I understand this. 

- How so? What the point of that to begin with?
 They have no stronger shinobi, so they wished that another one who's also not stronger? 
Hiruzen said that Minato did save the village already, so they shouldn't wait or him to save the
village every time for them, but rather they should stand up to him by themselves. Also, Minato
is obviously stronger than old Hiruzen by far. Oro barely survived against Hiruzen!  

- The only thing Oro received is the WZ, are you trying to say that even come close to Kurama? 
Also, oro did not counter the SF with a sealing jutsu of his own, but it's the same Uzumaki jutsu. 
but I must give him credits for surviving that. 

- Well, it's true that they are around the same level with Jiraiya being superior, but so is oro
as he himself admitted that he is weaker than itachi. 
He also lost 2 times in no time to him, no?


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## Ersa (Dec 26, 2013)

Edo Minato > Prime Itachi > Edo Itachi >= Base Minato > Sick Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Itachi's level of power was close to Jiraiya's. Both had imperfect use of their respective powers (lack of perfect SM; lack of perfect MS use*), and their successors became equal after mastering them. Bearing in mind Sasuke obtaining the MS was central to him surpassing Itachi as per Itachi's own words; mastering SM was pivotal for Naruto to surpass Jiraiya.
Though prior to Sasuke obtaining the full Susanoo, we got the Minato>Itachi=Jiraiya indication.

Either way, tuning out looking at the match up with favourable conditions for the characters we favour... it is hard to deny that Jiraiya and Itachi are close in power... you could call them equals.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

> Sasuke
> How can he want him to succeed him as the 5th?
> What Tsunade meant from the first part is the elders wanted Jiraiya to be the 5th, but obviously
> he refused and Tsunade became the 5th. That has nothing to do with the 3rd. Or at least that
> how I understand this.



It says it right there Hiruzen always wanted Jiraiya to succeed him as the 5th Hokage, but he originally wanted Orochimaru to succeed him the first time he retired but after Orochimaru walked down the dark path he chose Minato instead, but after Minato died Hiruzen wanted Jiriaiya to succeed him



> - How so? What the point of that to begin with?
> They have no stronger shinobi, so they wished that another one who's also not stronger?
> Hiruzen said that Minato did save the village already, so they shouldn't wait or him to save the
> village every time for them, but rather they should stand up to him by themselves. Also, Minato
> is obviously stronger than old Hiruzen by far. Oro barely survived against Hiruzen!



Off course Minato is stronger than Old Hiruzen, much stronger but thats hype for orochimaru if they thought it took Minato to take on Orochimaru, that would be like saying no would could kick his ass I wish Mike Tyson were around 

Orochimaru was much stronger than Hiruzen, only reason why Hiruzen even got as far as he did was because Orochimaru was toying around and was not taking the fight seriously 




> - The only thing Oro received is the WZ, are you trying to say that even come close to Kurama?
> Also, oro did not counter the SF with a sealing jutsu of his own, but it's the same Uzumaki jutsu.
> but I must give him credits for surviving that.



Uh no he received WZ, plus Kabuto's sage mode chakra , as well as 3 Hokage as Edo Tensei

He countered shika fujin as the only way he was able to retrieve his arms was due to him being able to survive with the curse seal




> - Well, it's true that they are around the same level with Jiraiya being superior, but so is oro
> as he himself admitted that he is weaker than itachi.
> He also lost 2 times in no time to him, no?



Orochimaru has never really been shown going all out in battle, his power level has fluctuated throughout the manga and has mostly been conditional,

in Pt 1 with Edo Tensei he was on another tier than Jiraiya

In Pt 2 with no arms he was more than likely weaker than Jiraiya

In the war with Edo Tensei , Sage Chakra, and WZ he's much stronger than Jiraiya

He never lost a one on one battle to Itachi , he was trying to take over his body not kill him yeah he admitted he was weaker when he didn't have any usage of jutsu but a lot of people are stronger than Orochimaru with no arms.

This is how I would stack up the 4 with numbers from 0-100

Minato(Edo)-97

Orochimaru(War Arc)-97

Minato(Base)- 95

Itachi(Edo)-94

Orochimaru(Edo Tensei)- 94

Itachi(sick)-92

Jiraiya-92

Orochimaru(No Arms)-88


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Edo Minato > Prime Itachi > Edo Itachi >= Base Minato > Sick Itachi.



This is my opinion as well. 

I think Edo Itachi would outsmart Minato for a firm victory though.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Edo Minato > Prime Itachi > Edo Itachi >= Base Minato > Sick Itachi.



This is fine except there are only two Itachi's we've seen in the manga Edo and Sick its obvious kishi intended Edo Itachi was supposed to be the Itachi not suffering drawbacks from illness,


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> This is fine except there are only two Itachi's we've seen in the manga Edo and Sick its obvious kishi intended Edo Itachi was supposed to be the Itachi not suffering drawbacks from illness,



Edo Tensei have a long history of underperforming, however. Before Nagato and Itachi debuted, people assumed they'd get trolled not because they were weak, but because they were Edo Tensei. 

Some people argued that Edos got trolled by virtue of being expendable to the author, but it's become more clear that they have a tendency to get trolled because they're not at their true prime.

Instances where this is stated are rare, but among them are the 2nd Mizukage saying not being able to defeat him when he was a corpse was shameful, and Madara saying he could fight normally.

Kabuto also asked Sasuke to betray Edo Itachi, because Edo Itachi was merely a "wooden doll." The whole not-a-real-body thing being inferior in some ways isn't surprising when you think about it.

There's also the common sense sort of reasoning that Orochimaru with Senju DNA, who still can't bring Edos back at 100%, would be better than Kabuto with Orochimaru's pre-Senju DNA powering him.

We may need to wait for further confirmation until everybody is persuaded, but it's questionable whether the Edo Akatsuki were at their best. Most of them were basically trolled by weaker ninja.

Itachi and Nagato were exceptions, but those two were never shown at their best during life. On the contrary, they were shown only crippled by disease and not really going all out anyway.​


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Edo Tensei have a long history of underperforming, however. Before Nagato and Itachi debuted, people assumed they'd get trolled not because they were weak, but because they were Edo Tensei.
> 
> Some people argued that Edos got trolled by virtue of being expendable to the author, but it's become more clear that they have a tendency to get trolled because they're not at their true prime.
> 
> ...



To me being an Edo Tensei varies with each edo tensei but most importably due TO PLOT

in pt 1 when Senju vs Uchiha wasn't established and Hashirama was a bit players their Edo Tensei were made to be drastically weaker than in there primes because that fight was about highlighting Hiruzen


with Madara he needs a living body to become juubi jinchurki but not to make his defeat look foolish , for the sake of plot kishimoto made Madara be stronger than in his Edo form

with Itachi the war was his only shot to show us healthy Itachi therefore with Itachi the edo body enhanced his abilities morso than hindered him, if Itachi was held back kishi would've made a point to tell the reader but he did not which meant he wanted us to see Edo Itachi as Healthy Itachi,

I never make correlations between how Edo Tensei effects each shinobi, because it will always be whatever is best for  the plot


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Yeah, plot-necessity is a fair interpretation, but in viewing things that way, you can see that Kishimoto purposefully never had Itachi go all out. We only ever saw his v4 Susano'o twice, for moments.

All that legendary weapon hype was never really seen for more than a panel. Kishimoto also made sure to hype and yet never show phenomenal genjutsu control abilities specific to Itachi.

So if Kishimoto meticulously kept Itachi, through various circumstances, beneath his best with lethal intent, yet hypes him constantly, then that should imply that he would be quite impressive.​


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## Turrin (Dec 26, 2013)

Orochimaru did not have Senju DNA when has cast Edo Tensei. Just saying


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> So if Kishimoto meticulously kept Itachi, through various circumstances, beneath his best with lethal intent, yet hypes him constantly, then that should imply that he would be quite impressive.​



You're confusing Itachi with Nagato.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> So it's ether they like him because of his strength or like him because they can troll w/ threads about his strength. Ether way it has little to nothing to do w/ the qualities you mentioned.



He's brilliant and lethal, not strong. It's his "Shikamaru with genjutsu" quality that makes him fun. In the Battledome, he is Batman fighting Superman. Superman being someone like Nagato.

The reason hundreds of threads are made about him is because the counters to his specifically hyped talents are often ridiculous e.g. any Chūnin can break his genjutsu and counter his shurikenjutsu.

Some people like Munboy see Itachi as a list of abilities, like a weaker version of Mangekyō Sasuke. That fuels the desire for debate, because others see Itachi's superhuman talents.

Talents that are, by the way, _constantly_ awarded to other ninja without the other ninja being indicated to have them. Before the author specifically point out otherwise, Sasuke was his equal in genjutsu, everybody had his ninjutsu seal speed, weapon ability, etc.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Before the author specifically point out otherwise, Sasuke was his equal in genjutsu​



Doesn't Itachi need Tsukuyomi to do what Sasuke can do with normal Genjutsu?

If Itachi's regular Genjutsu had the power of Sasuke's, then I'd have no doubt he'd doubtlessly be superior to Jiraiya.


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## Csdabest (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Doesn't Itachi need Tsukuyomi to do what Sasuke can do with normal Genjutsu?
> 
> If Itachi's regular Genjutsu had the power of Sasuke's, then I'd have no doubt he'd doubtlessly be superior to Jiraiya.



Sasuke has shown to cast Mangekyo level genjutsu w/o eye contact. Itachi is more skilled with genjutsu and has powerful genjutsu. Sasuke has probably more powerful genjutsu but doesnt have the type of control and skill itachi does


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke has shown to cast Mangekyo level genjutsu w/o eye contact. Itachi is more skilled with genjutsu and has powerful genjutsu. Sasuke has probably more powerful genjutsu but doesnt have the type of control and skill itachi does



When has Sasuke cast Mangekyou level Genjutsu without eye contact?

The only skill Itachi has over Sasuke in Genjutsu is that he could cast it through a finger... which isn't good against strong shinobi. 

Control in a Genjutsu... now you have to be more specific on what you mean. Given that if Sharingan Genjutsu gets used, the user - no matter who it is, Sasuke, Itachi, Madara... - will generally have control. How does one have better control?


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 26, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Control in a Genjutsu... now you have to be more specific on what you mean. Given that if Sharingan Genjutsu gets used, the user - no matter who it is, Sasuke, Itachi, Madara... - will generally have control. How does one have better control?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 26, 2013)

Obito was talking about Izanagi relative to Tsukuyomi.


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## Turrin (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He's brilliant and lethal, not strong. It's his "Shikamaru with genjutsu" quality that makes him fun. In the Battledome, he is Batman fighting Superman. Superman being someone like Nagato.
> 
> The reason hundreds of threads are made about him is because the counters to his specifically hyped talents are often ridiculous e.g. any Chūnin can break his genjutsu and counter his shurikenjutsu.
> 
> ...


Strategoob you do realize all of this stuff you cited still relates back to strength. Your upset because people say a Chunnin can break out of Itachi's Finger Genjutsu.Your upset because other people see Itachi as weaker than MS Sasuke. Etc... All of that is strength based. And most of these issues are created by Itachi-fans asserting more ridiculous shit, first, like Itachi solo's J-man zero difficulty w/o Sharingan and just Finger Genjutsu; than people retort w/ Chuunin can break Itachi's Genjutsu and counter his Shuriken Jutsu. You put out incredibly ridiculous, you should expect to get at least somewhat ridiculous responses in return; so it makes no sense to me that any Itachi fan would get pissed about that, especially if this is not strength thing (though it very clearly is)

I have never once seen any Itachi-fan argue, Itachi vs Nagato as if it is Superman vs Batman. Instead it's shit like Itachi can Genjutsu all the paths (or Nagato through the paths) because his Genjutsu is so strong and hax. Yata Magatama can bust CT by itself because it is so strong that Itachi really did not need B & Naruto's help. Itachi's Susano'o can tank CST or Seal Gedou Mazou because it's so strong that it's literally invincible. Before recent chapters it used to B Amaterasu sweeps all the paths, while they are helpless against it's strength. These are the arguments of Itachi fans and they are all strength based. So more accurately the discussing is as if it's Superman vs an even more Superman (Itachi).

All of this shows you only care about power. Otherwise there is no reason to care about whether people consider MS Sasuke can perform similar strength feats or if Chuunin can break his Genjutsu. None of that has anything to do w/ the qualities your highlighting for Itachi. And in-fact in many of the discussions/debates I've had w/ Itachi fans I've specifically told them while I think a certain character could defeat Itachi, that I believe Itachi is vastly superior in these qualities, which is why he is even strong enough to contend with X-character at super young age he is at in Part I & Part II. Yet that is never enough for them, they must instead "prove" Itachi is stronger and X-character stands no chance against him (or even weaker form of him); once again displaying that what matters most is his strength.

Also BTW if Itachi-fans really care about the qualities you cited, than why aren't they Shikkamaru fans who has most of these qualities even more so than Itachi. Most of the time I see Itachi-fans not giving a shit about characters like Shikkamaru -- almost certainly because he is not strong enough for them -- and often times they get pissed when I  (& others) say Shikkamaru is the Goat/Fan-favorite of Kishi and not Itachi (despite it being well document that Shikka is one of Kishi's favs; no such thing for Itachi), because once again it comes back to not the qualities, but what makes it easier to argue Itachi's strength.

So yeah I do not buy any of this BS, for even one second. Though again it would be really easy to prove me wrong, buy no longer arguing so vehemently for Itachi's strength based superiority, but again I doubt that you would maintain interest in the character if you didn't.

Edit: Also another thing I'd like to point out is really the only time Itachi is remotely like batman in the manga is when he is brought back and an Edo (and briefly against Kakashi in Part I) and uses strategies to counter Nagato and Kabuto; before that he was essentially all Just point and click Genjutsu/MS Hax; yet the Itachi-fan bandwagon started when he was showing of hax in Uchiha bros arc, not when he was brought back as and Edo. Rather it was people like me who enjoyed his character in Part I for his fight against Kakashi, than didn't like him when he became all hax, and than began to enjoy his character more when he was an Edo again. Meanwhile Itachi-fans when he was brought back as an Edo careless about his strategic ability and team leadership skills, than proving that he is strong enough to beat Nagato and Kabuto solo.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm not upset lol.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Also BTW if Itachi-fans really care about the qualities you cited, than why aren't they Shikkamaru fans who has most of these qualities even more so than Itachi.



What quality aside from planning does Shikamaru rival Itachi in?



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> All of this shows you only care about power.



All Itachi fans agree Sasuke, Nagato, etc. have more raw power.


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## Saru (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm pretty sure he could. I respect your post, OP, but it was a bit shaky for me in terms of calculations and references.

Itachi and Jiraiya are equals in the same way that KCM Naruto and Jiraiya are equals... They would both be considered "top tier ninja", but their strength wouldn't be so vastly different as to be duly acknowledged by the mangaka (like say current Madara, the strongest Uchiha clan member to date and the most experienced of all shinobi bar Rikudou, compared to Kakashi).


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## Veracity (Dec 27, 2013)

Saru said:


> I'm pretty sure he could. I respect your post, OP, but it was a bit shaky for me in terms of calculations and references.
> 
> Itachi and Jiraiya are equals in the same way that KCM Naruto and Jiraiya are equals... They would both be considered "top tier ninja", but their strength wouldn't be so vastly different as to be duly acknowledged by the mangaka (like say current Madara, the strongest Uchiha clan member to date and the most experienced of all shinobi bar Rikudou, compared to Kakashi).



KCM Naruto and Jirayia aren't even close to equals.


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## Turrin (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not upset lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You literally just compared him to Shikkamaru in your previous post. Shikkamaru emboides nearly every quality you cited for why you like Itachi.

It's still about strength as they always must assert Itachi is at least equal strength wise. If it wasn't about strength than the argument might be something along the lines of Itachi w/ the right intel, battlefield, etc... but that is almost never the argument. Also arguments like Itachi's Yata Magatama casually busting CT and Itachi's Amaterasu (& Susano'o) being more powerful than Sasuke are very clearly assertions of superiority in raw power as well.

Additionally in this thread you have been arguing Sasuke's Genjutsu prowess vs Itachi's; it's been a  thing that has been very heavily argued since the Danzo battle. But the thing is Sasuke in the Danzo battle used his Genjutsu very batman-like; in-fact it was one of thee most batman-like displays of Genjutsu usage in the entire manga. Yet what do Itachi-fans point to that makes Itachi vastly better than Sasuke; Danzo's statement that says Sasuke is inferior due to not having as hax'd and powerful of a Genjutsu as Tsukuyomi. If you truly liked the batman style qualities you guys would have put a-lot more stock into Sasuke's feat, but because in reality it's all about power you only care that Itachi is stronger because he has Tsukuyomi and Sasuke doesn't. Also Itachi's most batman like Genjutsu usage was against Kabuto w/ Izanami and how he used a highly specialized Genjutsu that would not work on many people to take him down; yet itach-fans often don't want to look at it that way, but instead want to look it as Izanami is so hax it can take out anyone (ignoring the manga cannon to do so); once again showing Itachi's strength is prioritize over being like batman.

It's the same thing as in discussions of Healthy/Prime Itachi vs Sick Itachi. Not once does the Itachi-fandom consider the experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc... that Itachi gained since becoming sick, all of which are qualities that relate more to Itachi's ability to be like batman; instead all of this is demeaned inconsequential to Itachi's skill as a shinobi, in-favor of a time where Itachi is more physical fit; because again it is about strength. Another example of this appeared just recently when somethings appeared in the manga which may indicate the Edos were weaker, Itachi-fans immediately pegged "Healthy" Itachi as better than Edo Itachi, once again ignoring all the exp, wisdom, etc... qualities Itachi gained since whenever the hell he may or may not have been healthy, and thus throwing away significant character development, in-favor of  the potential for slight physical superiority; again all this has to do w/ is strength.

I could go on and on. I literally have so many examples of Itachi-fans giving no shits about the qualities your mentioned and only caring about strength, it's ridiculous.


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## Rain (Dec 27, 2013)

itachi kills jiraiya without moving Finger genjutsu GG.

itachi strongest character in naruto ever never lose always win. best hax, phyisical ninjutsu and speed.

haters can fk off because itachi >>>> their fave lulululul


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 27, 2013)

I remember comments like Itachi's Genjutsu is too strong for Jiraiya to break... unless you're talking Tsukuyomi then yes. However the debate always extended it to all Genjutsu, which is silly. Even when Jiraiya has access to the swift partner method in SM.

Killer B using Kai isn't a reflection on how strong Itachi's Genjutsu is; it just means Killer B broke out using the fasted method. With kai, he'd have to use it, succeed and possibly risk getting hit with shuriken. Yet with the partner method he could jump to his seven swords style.

However when it comes to Itachi, his foes doing things out of efficiency doesn't come to mind. It seems like that gets taken as a testament to his _raw_ power. Seldom have I ever seen Itachi's actual qualities being a central point in the manga. The rare times they are, his foes' qualities are severely underrated. 

I believe this more pronounced the topics when we compare Itachi and Jiraiya. The presupposition with Itachi arguments is that Jiraiya must lose because he is bad at Genjutsu... we ignore his statistics and also ignore that being skilled at using Genjutsu isn't the same as being knowledgeable. Yet there is a double standard when we apply a similar logic for Jiraiya, such as for stamina. Every out of context argument is used to support Itachi's alleged high stamina over his canonical weak stamina point. 

Though it does become hard to take Itachi side of the arguments seriously -- in Jiraiya vs Itachi -- when the central points include, but aren't limited to out of context statements such as:
- Zetsu's comments on an aspect of Itachi's jutsu.
- Sasuke's comment on Itachi, as a shinobi not his power.
- Hashirama's comment on Itachi, as a shinobi not his power.

etc 
The ironic thing about Zetsu is, we're quick to jump to say that he said Itachi wasn't himself. Yet he is ignored when he elaborates on how; the elaboration isn't as grand as isolating the statement and chucking out the explanation.

So it leaves us with a skewed from canon Itachi vs a closer to canon view Jiraiya. Obviously the former isn't going to be taken seriously like this. 
I'd rather the Itachi arguments use his talents and hype in context, like all the other arguments do. If that's done, you'd see Itachi does beat Jiraiya in a number of scenarios... however without underrating Jiraiya, you see the same is true otherwise.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> You literally just compared him to Shikkamaru in your previous post. Shikkamaru emboides nearly every quality you cited for why you like Itachi.



No, he doesn't. Shikamaru has the brain, but was too lazy to apply himself for any of the talent. If Batman never developed his physical skills, then sure, Shikamaru's Batman.​


Turrin said:


> It's still about strength as they always must assert Itachi is at least equal strength wise.



It's the Battedome. If we argued for Shikamaru overcoming someone with his brains and trickery it would still be "about strength" according to you, despite it being about more.​


Turrin said:


> Also arguments like Itachi's Yata Magatama casually busting CT and Itachi's Amaterasu (& Susano'o) being more powerful than Sasuke are very clearly assertions of superiority in raw power as well.



The superior Amaterasu intensity goes back to more skill with the technique (not Kagutsuchi.) The items were found because Itachi was intelligent enough to find what Orochimaru couldn't.​


Turrin said:


> Yet what do Itachi-fans point to that makes Itachi vastly better than Sasuke; Danzo's statement. Also Itachi's most batman like Genjutsu usage was against Kabuto w/ Izanami.



As if that were the only source and area of Itachi's superiority. And no, it wasn't. It was manipulating Deidara into blowing himself up, and controlling a sexy woman to distract Jiraiya.​


Turrin said:


> It's the same thing as in discussions of Healthy/Prime Itachi vs Sick Itachi. Not once does the Itachi-fandom consider the experience, knowledge, wisdom, etc...



He had a Hokage's wisdom at seven, so at seventeen he would still be wiser, more knowledgeable, etc. than practically anybody while being able to take his amazing skills further with a healthy body.​


Turrin said:


> that Itachi gained since becoming sick, all of which are qualities that relate more to Itachi's ability to be like batman; instead all of this is demeaned inconsequential to Itachi's skill as a shinobi, in-favor of a time where Itachi is more physical fit;



Batman is as much about skill (physical capability) as he is about cunning and mind.​


Turrin said:


> I could go on and on. I literally have so many examples of Itachi-fans giving no shits about the qualities your mentioned and only caring about strength, it's ridiculous.



You're as biased against Itachi as I am for him, as is Munboy. I'm only responding to you two because I'm bored, not because I think I'll change either of your minds.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2013)

The difference between Itachi & Shikamaru is, Shikamaru is a guy with super smarts who has chuunin level skill in shinobi arts. Itachi is a guy with super smarts, super wisdom, super knowledge and kage level skill in shinobi arts, as well as near end game hax jutsus.

On top of that, he is better looking and alot more charismatic and he is Uchiha Fucking Itachi. He is one of the most hyped and anticipated characters in the manga. Plus he has some qualities that make him "human" which some other powerful characters lack.


It is all of that combined that makes Itachi appealing. I don't think any other character in the manga has so many peak qualities in one package.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2013)

He is _beyond_ Kage level skill in ninja arts, Grim:

1. Even when , his ninjutsu speed (clones) .

2. Even when , elite Sharingans  to keep up with his weaponry.

3. He's hyped as , which is the most _talent-based_ field.

~

He's also _beyond_ Kage level , , , and .

~

In terms of talent, no shinobi comes close. Itachi .

And was more skilled than the Sannin as a fifth grader. 

~

The Mangekyō abilities have nothing to do with my fanboyism.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He's brilliant and lethal, not strong. It's his "Shikamaru with genjutsu" quality that makes him fun. In the Battledome, he is Robin the Boy Wonder fighting Superman. Superman being someone like Nagato.​


Errrr not really. Itachi is rather dumb and has never shown feats of having intelligence greater than Sasuke's, Kakashi's, Jiraiya's, and numerous more characters and he is no where near the level of Shikamaru.



> The reason hundreds of threads are made about him is because the counters to his specifically hyped talents are often ridiculous e.g. any Chūnin can break his genjutsu and counter his shurikenjutsu.


Hype but not a feat. The reason hundreds of threads are made about him is because people try to change stipulations against certain characters like Jiraiya, Nagato, and Kabuto to try to achieve a different outcome(rather akin to Izanagi) and spew ridiculous bullshit and more than half of the post that his fans make are noncontributive.



> Some people like Munboy see Itachi as a list of abilities, like a weaker version of Mangekyō Sasuke. That fuels the desire for debate, because others see Itachi's superhuman talents.


Well to be fair other than Tsukuyomi Sasuke has a better base arsenal and MS capacity and his chakra levels put him above Itachi as well.  The fuel for the debate is people making ludicrous claims and ignoring credible claims I.E. GrimmjowSensei, Nikushimi, the list goes on.



> Talents that are, by the way, _constantly_ awarded to other ninja without the other ninja being indicated to have them. Before the author specifically point out otherwise, Sasuke was his equal in genjutsu, everybody had his ninjutsu seal speed, weapon ability, etc.



No you are completely wrong. People said Sasuke's genjutsu could be likened to Itachi's Tsukuyomi as to what it did to Bee and C but was later explained by Danzo. You are just putting words in other peoples mouth.

As to handseal speed- We have seen a bunch of people that handseals are not needed for, I.E. Rasengan, and that a bunch of top tier fighters are able to cast a wide array of jutsu's with just 1 hand seal which would make Itachi handseal speed obsolete. What are Itachi's best in battle weapon feat? Blinding the summons? Curving kunais in practice. We have seen shinobi that use their weapons to a better effect and have a greater ability. Like Nagato's paths, or Sasori's puppets, or Kabuto's ET, or Uchiha fan, or Killer Bee, I can go on and on.

And Im sure that most of Itachi's fans have wet dreams about him on an hourly basis. I wouldn't doubt if one of them doesn't go into the fan club and start wanking off.



BTW Jiraiya....YOMI NUMA GG 10/10 no deaf   : PerfectJiraiya


OH BTW: I love how you post TinyPic instead of manga chapters to where someone can't look at the next page and seeing  that it makes no sense for you to reference that, or Itachi being countered.


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## Trojan (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> That's where I stopped reading your post, buddy.



fixed it for you. 

BTW, in your last post, I actually did not understand how some of the photos that you posted
are related to what you said.


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## Turrin (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No, he doesn't. Shikamaru has the brain, but was too lazy to apply himself for any of the talent.​


Did you not read Part II 



> If Batman never developed his physical skills, then sure, Shikamaru's Batman.


Batman was still human, just skilled in Martial arts. Basically nowhere near the level of physical ability that most other DC Heroes and Villains had. Shikkamaru is similar in the sense that his physical abilities are decent, but nowhere near those of other characters in his verse. Itachi is less oriented this way because he actually does have his crazy speed. 



> It's the Battedome. If we argued for Shikamaru overcoming someone with his brains and trickery it would still be "about strength" according to you, despite it being about more.


The problem w/ this is Itachi-fans rarely argue Itachi is overcoming someone w/ brains. It is almost always an issue of Hax w/ Itachi-fans; I.E. Itachi rapes w/ X Genjutsu or MS Technique. Itachi is invincible due to Yata Mirror. Itachi's Totsuka Blade can seal anything. None of this has to do w/ brains or is remotely "batman-like". Instead these are all strength based arguments. 



> The superior Amaterasu intensity goes back to more skill with the technique (not Kagutsuchi.)


Which is a strength issue. 



> The items were found because Itachi was intelligent enough to find what Orochimaru couldn't.


I have never once seen the items argued in the sense that  they display Itachi's intelligence; it is always about how HAX they are.



> As if that were the only source and area of Itachi's superiority.


You just completely ignore the point I was making.



> And no, it wasn't. It was manipulating Deidara into blowing himself up, and controlling a sexy woman to distract Jiraiya.


There is nothing Batman about pulling out a point an click Hax Dojutsu like he did against Deidara. The Jiraiya example would be fine, if it had worked, but it failed. 



> He had a Hokage's wisdom at seven, so at seventeen he would still be wiser, more knowledgeable, etc. than practically anybody while being able to take his amazing skills further with a healthy body.


Itachi-fans have been ignoring this long before the Hokage Wisdom at age seven statement, so that is BS excuse to me. Additionally just because he was wise even young, doesn't mean he didn't continue to gain exp, intelligence, wisdom, etc... after falling ill and later becoming an Edo; in-fact the manga makes it very clear that he did.



> Batman is as much about skill (physical capability) as he is about cunning and mind.


No he's not. Batman is an ant compared to most people in his verse. He gets by not due to pulling out Hax or being superhumanly fast, but due to his intelligence and figuring out the enemies weaknesses and exploiting that. Thee only fights where Itachi really did that was when brought back as an Edo (also against Kakashi in Part I). Yet Itachi-fans have been wanking to him long before that around the Uchiha bros arc.



> You're as biased against Itachi as I am for him, as is Munboy. I'm only responding to you two because I'm bored, not because I think I'll change either of your minds.


This is funny becuase it illustrates my point perfectly. Never once have I ever not given Itachi huge props for the qualities that you cited for liking Itachi. Yet i'm biased against Itachi, why? Because I think Jiraiya can beat a sick and dying version of him or because I thought Minato would turn out stronger than him. All of these things that Itachi-fans get but hurt over w/ me are strength issues. Once again they don't give a shit about anything, but strength.

And i'm only responding to you because I find it hilarious the lack of self awareness the Itachi-fandom apparently has, that they don't realize they care primarily about strength.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Did you not read Part II
> 
> 
> Batman was still human, just skilled in Martial arts. Basically nowhere near the level of physical ability that most other DC Heroes and Villains had. Shikkamaru is similar in the sense that his physical abilities are decent, but nowhere near those of other characters in his verse. Itachi is less oriented this way because he actually does have his crazy speed.



The two verses are different in the sense that Batman isn't instantly turned into paste against someone fighting Superman despite the incomprehensibly massive speed difference.

Shikamaru would not be so lucky if going a round with A, and Shikamaru has superhuman reflexes, better than Batman, and A is incomprehensibly slower than Superman.​


Turrin said:


> There is nothing Batman about pulling out a point an click Hax Dojutsu like he did against Deidara. The Jiraiya example would be fine, if it had worked, but it failed.



Itachi didn't want it to work, and he said he didn't expect it to work (self-fulfilling, most likely.) The Deidara thing was manipulative and awesome. But ok, it was probably more Aizen than Batman.​


Turrin said:


> Itachi-fans have been ignoring this long before the Hokage Wisdom at age seven statement, so that is BS excuse to me.



Even before that statement, it was obvious that Itachi was no ordinary person and that he wouldn't be considered inexperienced or unknowledgeable at seventeen, or even twelve as an ANBU mole.

You could tell just from the difference in behavior at the beginning of battles that, when comparing legendary Sannin and Itachi, it was the goofy, big-talk _Sannin_ who lacked wisdom in approaching battles.

Moreover, the experience and knowledge that matters most is experience with S-ranks, and Itachi likely had been around more S-ranks (Akatsuki, jinchūriki) by age 14 than any A-rank Jōnin.

Hell, even Minato thought it was impossible for someone like Madara to have extended their life over a hundred years, but kid Itachi would know otherwise due to being in Akatsuki.​


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## Kai (Dec 27, 2013)

It matters not how many years after the fact, or what state the manga as in - the same controversial threads get the same controversial answers.

I'd say this is just like back in the day but the debate just never loses fuel


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 27, 2013)

We're discussing the known Itachi variants vs Jiraiya... but what if Jiraiya had the benefits of Naruto's SM with his standard Fukasaku-Shima fusion?


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## Thunder (Dec 27, 2013)

Yomi Numa solos. Same old same old.


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## Kai (Dec 27, 2013)

Thunder said:


> Yomi Numa solos. Same old same old.


Yata's Mirror negates the swamp


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 27, 2013)

Thunder said:


> Yomi Numa solos. Same old same old.



I remember the joke. 

But given Susanoo's performance underground shortcoming... would Yomi Numa be a viable counter? 

Itachi isn't Madara Uchiha who has legged Susanoo that would enable himself to get out of danger. Nor is he Sasuke who would be able to nullify the Doton with his Raiton. 
So how Susanoo would perform against Yomi Numa is still an interesting avenue of discussion. 

Might possibly be a good stall tactic for the Genjutsu that Jiraiya has access too. Or it could possibly be a game ender, depending if Jiraiya could determine how fast the swamp submerges the victim.



Kai said:


> Yata's Mirror negates the swamp



I remember this one too. 

Though, I'm not entirely sure... I'm not sure if a jutsu of Yomi Numa's nature would make the mirror effective. Given that the shield is obviously more effective at attacks charging towards Itachi. It isn't any good repelling parts of the swamp in front of the shield when it is all around the chakra contruct (Susanoo).


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## Ersa (Dec 27, 2013)

You think someone as smart as Itachi won't think to use Yata's Mirror as a surfboard? Or Itachi swims through it. Yomi Numa does shit all


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2013)

1. Itachi's perception sees the jutsu coming. Itachi evades danger. 

2. Yata Mirror nullifies doton element with contrary element.

3. Itachi can wrench himself out with a Susano'o arm as a last resort.

4. Jiraiya's already in genjutsu and was tricked into drowning himself.


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## Thunder (Dec 27, 2013)

Kai said:


> Yata's Mirror negates the swamp



There was a counter to this, but I can't remember.

*looks up thread from 3 years ago*





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I remember the joke.
> 
> But given Susanoo's performance underground shortcoming... would Yomi Numa be a viable counter?
> 
> ...



At the very least it would stall Itachi long enough for Jiraiya to set something else up, or get out of Itachi's range. Assuming of course Jiraiya didn't already fall to finger genjutsu at match start.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi can wrench himself out with a Susano'o arm as a last resort.



Yes, putting his Susanoo arm inside the swamp will help him. 



Thunder said:


> At the very least it would stall Itachi long enough for Jiraiya to set something else up, or get out of Itachi's range. Assuming of course Jiraiya didn't already fall to finger genjutsu at match start.



But Jiraiya doesn't need his eyes when he has the detection barrier and SM sensing.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, putting his Susanoo arm inside the swamp will help him.



The viscosity obviously wouldn't matter for a Susano'o arm like it would for a normal person's arm, so an Archimedean upthrust is easily doable.


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## Turrin (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The two verses are different in the sense that Batman isn't instantly turned into paste against someone fighting Superman despite the incomprehensibly massive speed difference.
> 
> Shikamaru would not be so lucky if going a round with A, and Shikamaru has superhuman reflexes, better than Batman, and A is incomprehensibly slower than Superman.​


Depends what iteration of the DC verse and comic book writer you talk about. However most of the time Superman would own the hell out of Batman unless he's lucky enough to have prior prep and kyrptonite handy. 

Plus if your concerned w/ a character getting own'd by another character, and that's why you like Itachi because he wouldn't get own'd by Ei instead of Shikkamaru who would; again that is a strength issue.



> Itachi didn't want it to work, and he said he didn't expect it to work (self-fulfilling, most likely.) The Deidara thing was manipulative and awesome. But ok, it was probably more Aizen than Batman.


And Aizen is all about hax and strength; not anything brians or batman related. 



> Even before that statement, it was obvious that Itachi was no ordinary person and that he wouldn't be considered inexperienced or unknowledgeable at seventeen, or even twelve as an ANBU mole.
> 
> You could tell just from the difference in behavior at the beginning of battles that, when comparing legendary Sannin and Itachi, it was the goofy, big-talk Sannin who lacked wisdom in approaching battles.
> 
> ...


Way to talk about something completely irrelevant to the point. The point never was that Itachi was inexperience or lacking wisdom as a kid; the issue is that he got more experience, knowledge, wisdom after becoming ill and later an Edo. 

Anyway, Strategoob, like 3 posts up in your response to how Itachi counters J-man's Yomi Numa, you once again confirm my point that it has nothing to do w/ brains, but once again the magical hax argument.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The viscosity obviously wouldn't matter for a Susano'o arm like it would for a normal person's arm, so an Archimedean upthrust is easily doable.



The support for this being... ?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2013)

"Aizen not being about brains" is part of the reason why debating with you is pointless, Turrin. You don't see things clearly, for either character.

And fucking hello, this is an Itachi v Jiraiya thread in the Battledome. Arguing about battle counters in this thread proves nothing other than your inability to separate qualities that people like in a chraracter.


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## Saru (Dec 27, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> KCM Naruto and Jirayia aren't even close to equals.



that's the point I was trying to make.


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## Turrin (Dec 27, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Aizen not being about brains" is part of the reason why debating with you is pointless, Turrin. You don't see things clearly, for either character.
> 
> And fucking hello, this is an Itachi v Jiraiya thread in the Battledome. Arguing about battle counters in this thread proves nothing other than your inability to separate qualities that people like in a chraracter.


Aizen's powers are not about brains, I don't know how you can think they are anything, but Overpowered Hax; they were so overpowered in-fact that the author had to write them out of the manga in-order to give the heroes a chance to defeat Aizen. 

I know what the thread is, I was just giving an example of how Itachi-fans love to promote Hax and talk about Itachi's hax; instead of arguing for intelligence and the qualities that you stress are importnat; its once again all about Itachi beating Jiraiya due to his hax. Why do Itachi-fans think the idea of Jiriaya being able to beat Itachi is so deplorable, hint it's not due to brain power, it's due to the thought that Itachi should be way stronger due to hax. 

So just get real w/ yourself Strategoob, your clearly like the character due to his Hax and strength, more so than the qualities you cited. If it was just those qualities you'd be a Shikkamaru-fan or Shikaku-fan. Etc...


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