# Final Databook Scores for these characters...



## Kyu (May 15, 2016)

Naruto Uzumaki
Sasuke Uchiha
Toneri Otsutsuki
Sakura Haruno
Hashirama Senju
Tobirama Senju
Minato Namikaze
Itachi Uchiha
Nagato Uzumaki
Post-chapter 700/Gaiden/Boruto Movie, what would their total score be?


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

To spice things up, I'm just going to refer to Naruto and Sasuke strictly in Base as if they didn't have Rikudou's Chakra.


Naruto Uzumaki
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 4.0
Genjutsu: ???
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 4.5
Speed: 4.0+
Stamina: 5.0+
Hand Seals: 2.0

Sasuke Uchiha
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 4.5+
Genjutsu: 5.0
Intelligence: 5.0+
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0+
Stamina: 5.0+
Hand Seals: 4.5

Sakura Haruno
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 4.5
Intelligence: 5.0+
Strength: 5.0+
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 5.0+
Hand Seals: 4.0 (???)

Hashirama Senju
Ninjutsu: 5.0+
Taijutsu: 5.0+
Genjutsu: 4.0-
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 5.0+
Speed: 5.0+
Stamina: 5.0+
Hand Seals: 5.0+

Madara Uchiha
Ninjutsu: 5.0+
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 5.0+
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 5.0+
Speed: 5.0+
Stamina: 5.0+
Hand Seals: 5.0+

Tobirama Senju
Ninjutsu: 5.0+
Taijutsu: 5.0+
Genjutsu: 4.0+
Intelligence: 5.0+
Strength: 5.0+
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 5.0+
Hand Seals: 5.0+

Minato Namikaze
Ninjutsu:5.0
Taijutsu: 4.0
Genjutsu: 3.0
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 5.0
Hand Seals: 4.5

Kushina Uzumaki
Ninjutsu: 5.0+
Taijutsu: ???
Genjutsu: ???
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: ???
Speed: ???
Stamina: 5.0+
Hand Seals: ???

I wasn't sure how Team 7 stacked up Post-Chapter 700, so I stuck with Post-VoTE 2 instead.


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## Kyu (Jul 24, 2016)

Nerco's Pheel.

Made several changes.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 24, 2016)

Naruto Uzumaki
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 4.0
Genjutsu: 2.5
Intelligence: 3.5
Strength: 4
Speed: 3.5
Stamina: 5.0
Fuinjutsu : 4.0

Sasuke Uchiha
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 4.0
Genjutsu: 4.5
Intelligence: 4
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5 (?)
Fuinjutsu : 4.0

Sakura Haruno
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 3.5
Genjutsu: 4.5
Intelligence: 4.0
Strength: 3.0
Speed: 3.5
Stamina: 2.5
Fuinjutsu : 5

Hashirama Senju
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Fuinjutsu : 5

Madara Uchiha
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 5.0
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 5.0
Fuinjutsu: 5.0

Tobirama Senju
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 5.0
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 5.0
Hand Seals: 5.0

Minato Namikaze
Ninjutsu:5.0
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 4.5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 4.0
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Fuinjutsu : 5


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## Icegaze (Jul 24, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Naruto Uzumaki
> Sasuke Uchiha
> Toneri Otsutsuki
> Sakura Haruno
> ...



Naruto : 5 in ninjutsu , taijutsu , speed , stamina , strength

3 in intelligence , hand seals

Minato: 5 in ninjutsu , speed , intelligence , hand seals

4 in stamina and strength

Hashirama :5 across the board

Tobirama 5: except in strength and genjutsu where I'll give him a 3 

Itachi :5 except in stamina and strength Where he gets 3 at best 

Nagato : 5 across the board


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## Kyu (Jul 24, 2016)

I'll give it a whirl.


Naruto Uzumaki
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 4.0
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 5.0
Hand Seals: 5.0 (one-handed seals)

*Overall - 38.5*


Sasuke Uchiha
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 5.0
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 4.0
Hand Seals: 5.0 (one-handed seals)

*Overall - 38.5*


Toneri Ōtsutsuki
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 5.0
Genjutsu: 5.0
Intelligence: 4.0
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 4.5
Hand Seals: 4.5

*Overall - 38*


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 24, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Naruto Uzumaki
> Sasuke Uchiha
> Toneri Otsutsuki
> Sakura Haruno
> ...



I love these threads 

If the databook stayed consistent and based its rankings on their base forms, then:

*Naruto Uzumaki*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 4.5
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 4.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 38.5_

*Sasuke Uchiha*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 4.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 39.5
_
*Sakura Haruno*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 39.5
_
*Minato Namikaze*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 3.5 (?)
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 4.5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 36
_
*Hashirama Senju*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 39.5
_
*Tobirama Senju*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 4 (?)
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 4
Handseals: 5
_Total: 36
_
*Nagato Uzumaki*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 2
Genjutsu: 3.5
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 2
Speed: 0.5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
Total: 27.5

I didn't rank Itachi because he didn't change, and I don't think Toneri is even considered a ninja, so things like handseals can't be applied to him. Also, he didn't really show anything in the way of raw strength iirc.


_
_


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 24, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Naruto Uzumaki
> Ninjutsu: 5.0
> Taijutsu: 4.0
> Genjutsu: 2.5
> ...


This is pretty much my Opinion too. Except I would give Tobirama at least 3-4 in Fuinjutsu,since someone with his Intelligence and Researching/Knowledge is bound to have some sort of Fuinjutsu.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 24, 2016)

Naruto Uzumaki Nin: 5 , Gen 3.5, Int 4.5, Str: 5, Spe: 5. Sta , Tai 5 , Sea 4.5

Sasuke Uchiha Nin 5, Gen 5 , Int 4.5 , Str 3.5, Spe 5, Sta 5, Tai 5, Sea 4.5

Toneri Otsutsuki Nin 5 , Gen 5 , Int 5 , Str 3.5, Spe 5, Sta 5, Tai 4, Sea 5

Sakura Haruno  Nin 4.5, Int 5 , Str 5, Spe 4, Sta 4.5, Tai 5 , Sea 4

Hashirama Senju Nin 5 , Int 4.5 , Str 5 , Spe 4.5 , Sta 5 , Tai 4.5 , Sea 5 , Gen 4.5

Tobirama Senju Nin 5 , Int 5, Str 5 , Spe 5, Sta 5 , Tai 5, Sea 5 , Gen 4

Minato Namikaze Nin 5 , Int 5 , Str 4 , Spe 5 , Sta 4.5 , Tai 4.5 , Sea 5 , Gen 4

Itachi Uchiha Nin 5 , Int 5 , Str 3.5 , Spe 5 , Sta 3.5 , Tai 4.5 , Sea 5 , Gen 5

Nagato Uzumaki  Nin 5 , Int 5 , Str 3.5 , Spe 5, Sta 5, Tai 4.5 , Sea 5 , Gen 5


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## Mithos (Jul 25, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> *Naruto Uzumaki*
> Genjutsu: 4.5



Why?

Naruto has never been a genjutsu type. Even if he may be able to defend against genjutsu, I don't think he has enough knowledge and proficiency in it to score that high...



Eliyua23 said:


> Sakura Haruno  Nin 4.5, Int 5 , Str 5, Spe 4, Sta 4.5, Tai 5 , Sea 4



Sakura's ninjutsu should definitely be a 5 in my opinion. She's supposedly caught up to Tsunade in medical ninjutsu and has mastered Byakugou.

Her strength might be lower, since I don't think the DB takes into account _Okasho_. 3 or 3.5 if that's the case.


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

I'll give it a shot.
*
Naruto Uzumaki*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 3.5
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 4.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 4.5
_Total: 37_

*Sasuke Uchiha*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 4.5
_Total: 37
_
*Sakura Haruno*
Ninjutsu: 4
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 3.5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 4
_Total: 35.5
_
*Minato Namikaze*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4
Genjutsu: 3.5 (?)
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 4
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 4
_Total: 35.5
_
*Hashirama Senju*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 4.5
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 4.5
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 4.5
_Total: 37
_
*Tobirama Senju*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4
Genjutsu: 3.5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 4
_Total: 35
_
*Nagato Uzumaki*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 3.5
Genjutsu: 4
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 5
Speed: 4
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 4.5
_Total: 35.5
_
The main thing I think Kishi would do is keep Naruto and Sasuke's base stat totals (BSTs) equal while also capping Minato and Nagato at the same BST as Jiraiya. I think Tobirama would probably be in the 35-35.5 BST range as well. As for Sakura, I somehow doubt Kishimoto would give her the same score as Naruto and Sasuke, "base forms" or no. I also doubt anyone in the manga would get a higher score in hand seals than Jiraiya. Itachi had a higher score than Jiraiya in hand seals despite Jiraiya having one of the largest ninjutsu arsenals in the manga, and his hand seal skill was emphasized so much that I doubt anyone else would be awarded a 5 in that area.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 25, 2016)

There is no such thing as Stat Total in DBs.


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## Mercurial (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> The main thing I think Kishi would do is keep Naruto and Sasuke's base stat totals (BSTs) equal while also capping Minato and Nagato at the same BST as Jiraiya. I think Tobirama would probably be in the 35-35.5 BST range as well. As for Sakura, I somehow doubt Kishimoto would give her the same score as Naruto and Sasuke, "base forms" or no. I also doubt anyone in the manga would get a higher score in hand seals than Jiraiya. Itachi had a higher score than Jiraiya in hand seals despite Jiraiya having one of the largest ninjutsu arsenals in the manga, and his hand seal skill was emphasized so much that I doubt anyone else would be awarded a 5 in that area.


Base stat totals don't even exist in the databooks. It was a bullshit created by the fandom, that mistakingly thought the databook stats as something useful to make a power level ranking with the total of the stats. Which is completely wrong, because most stats are both completely not consistent with what the manga actually showed and not consistent if one make a comparison between different characters's stats: and the stats weren't meant to be summed to begin with (lol Asuma with 32.5 is better than Gai, Deidara and Hidan and on par with Kisame and Kakuzu... Shizune is better than Gaara... lol).


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> There is no such thing as Stat Total in DBs.





Raikiri19 said:


> Base stat totals don't even exist in the databooks. It was a bullshit created by the fandom, that mistakingly thought the databook stats as something useful to make a power level ranking with the total of the stats. Which is completely wrong, because most stats are both completely not consistent with what the manga actually showed and not consistent if one make a comparison between different characters's stats: and the stats weren't meant to be summed to begin with (lol Asuma with 32.5 is better than Gai, Deidara and Hidan and on par with Kisame and Kakuzu... Shizune is better than Gaara... lol).



While that may be true, the base stat totals still exist. Anyone can add the stats up, and I'm sure whoever came up with those stats did. Naruto wouldn't be the first fictional franchise not to publish that sort of information and leave analysis of the numbers up to the fanbase. IMO, it wasn't a coincidence that certain characters shared the same score in the Databook. There are a few anomalies like Gai, but most of them make sense in context.

The Databook stats are of course subjective (ironically) despite appearing objective on the surface, as it's impossible to translate each character's feats to precise numerical values. What is possible, however, is the establishment of baselines and extremes. Itachi and Jiraiya's BSTs are not likely be surpassed by the likes of Sakura, for example. Naruto and Sasuke are not likely to have the same extreme score in hand seals as Itachi, for example. In that vein, I think Itachi and Jiraiya's BST set a good baseline for how high other characters' BSTs can go.

The Databook is very much about appearances, so that's why I think Kishi (or whoever _actually_ worked on the Databook) would give the appearance of Naruto and Sasuke being equal.


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## Mercurial (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> The Databook is very much about appearances, so that's I why I think Kishi (or whoever _actually_ worked on the Databook) would give the appearance of Naruto and Sasuke being equal.


Then why he didn't make Kakashi and Gai's stats equals, actually not even almost equals, even if Kakashi and Gai are more or less equals.

Why did he make fodder Shizune over Kazekage Gaara.

Why did he make Asuma over Hidan, if Asuma himself said "This guy (referred to Hidan) is much more powerful than I am", and on par/over people like Deidara, Kakuzu and Kisame, who would stomp him 10 times on 10.

And so on, so many examples can be made.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 25, 2016)

Simply adding stats up is a bad idea to measure strength. 1 Point in Handseals isn't going to be equal to 1 Point in Speed or Ninjutsu. You have Genjutsu stat not giving any perks until it goes above 3.0 aside from very vague knowledge/defense. Then there are modes or bloodlines we don't know how to properly include, maxed stats not being equal. Wind Arc Naruto had 26, Kakuzu had 32.5, Wind Arc Kakashi had 34.5. Asuma had 32.5 and Hidan had 31.5. Naruto was ~/> Kakashi. Asuma nearly shat his pants after seeing Kakuzu and Hidan. And we saw Kakuzu vs Kakashi/Naruto fights. Stats give us the general idea on someone's strength and weaknesses. And growth. I still think that they are not meant to be compared directly(or as directly as we do). Far too many contradictions between them and manga.


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Then why he didn't make Kakashi and Gai's stats equals, actually not even almost equals, even if Kakashi and Gai are more or less equals.
> 
> Why did he make fodder Shizune over Kazekage Gaara.
> 
> ...



Like I said, Gai is an anomaly. Naruto and Sasuke, not so much.

Gaara is another anomaly because of his fighting style.

IIRC, Asuma actually said something to the effect of "these _guys_ are stronger than me," so he was referring to both Kakuzu and Hidan with that statement. Asuma fought pretty evenly with Kisame in Part I, so evidence suggested that those two were on similar footing at the time that the Third Databook was released (and if you take Samehada away from Kisame, I think they still very much are).



Alex Payne said:


> Simply adding stats up is a bad idea to measure strength. 1 Point in Handseals isn't going to be equal to 1 Point in Speed or Ninjutsu. You have Genjutsu stat not giving any perks until it goes above 3.0 aside from very vague knowledge/defense. Then there are modes or bloodlines we don't know how to properly include, maxed stats not being equal. Wind Arc Naruto had 26, Kakuzu had 32.5, Wind Arc Kakashi had 34.5. Asuma had 32.5 and Hidan had 31.5. Naruto was ~/> Kakashi. Asuma nearly shat his pants after seeing Kakuzu and Hidan. And we saw Kakuzu vs Kakashi/Naruto fights. Stats give us the general idea on someone's strength and weaknesses. And growth. I still think that they are not meant to be compared directly(or as directly as we do). Far too many contradictions between them and manga.



Interestingly enough, I agree that stats should not be compared, but I do believe that stat extremes (e.g. 5 compared to anything <5) and stat totals can be compared in context.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> I'll give it a shot.
> *
> Naruto Uzumaki*
> Ninjutsu: 5
> ...


_
_
I think you scored all these guys quite lowly. By the end of the series, I see no reason why Kishimoto wouldn't have the main characters peak the databook stats.

Sasuke had a 4 in handseals at the start of Part II, as did Sakura, so I find it hard to believe that one of their best traits would stagnate before they had even reached their physical, intellectual prime. Sasuke's taijutsu should have easily reached a 5 too, if his performance against Kinshiki was anything to go by. This was at a 3.5 at the start of shippuden, and I'm certain that he uses Taijutsu frequently enough that it would have improved a lot over about 20 years.

In The Last, Sakura's genjutsu resistance improved to the point that she could resist Toneri's illusion, something Naruto couldn't do despite being a PJ, and Hinata couldn't do despite having a Byakugan and high chakra control. Genjutsu was always her natural area of talent, so I see no reason why it wouldn't have improved even further in adulthood and reached a 5. Likewise, her taijutsu should surely have increased to a 5 .. because it's her main combat focus in battle. And given that she can use Byakugou and summon Katsuyu, her ninjutsu should certainly be at a 5, even more so 20 years after the war. 



> *Hashirama Senju*
> Ninjutsu: 5
> Taijutsu: 4.5
> Genjutsu: 4.5
> ...


_
_
Hashirama is a God of Shinobi, like Hiruzen is, except he isn't hindered by age. For that reason alone he should have 5s in every category.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Why?
> 
> Naruto has never been a genjutsu type. Even if he may be able to defend against genjutsu, I don't think he has enough knowledge and proficiency in it to score that high...



He went up one stat point in 2 and a half years, from a 1 to a 2, and that was as a child, where he was far less intelligent or intuitive. I would guess that over 20 years his genjutsu knowledge would surely increase further, if only from battle experience, and nothing else. His ability to sense chakra means he can also recognise when he's in genjutsu and break out. I don't think he would ever master genjutsu which is why he doesn't have a 5, but to reach the Jounin level he would have needed at least above average talent in genjutsu, and that can only have increased through combat experience.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 25, 2016)

Don't think Naruto will become better at genjutsu than Jiraiya.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

At the least, I think he has a 3.5. I bumped him up to a 4.5 for the sake of being closer to Sasuke and Sakura in stat total.


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think you scored all these guys quite lowly. By the end of the series, I see no reason why Kishimoto wouldn't have the main characters peak the databook stats.
> 
> Sasuke had a 4 in handseals at the start of Part II, as did Sakura, so I find it hard to believe that one of their best traits would stagnate before they had even reached their physical, intellectual prime. Sasuke's taijutsu should have easily reached a 5 too, if his performance against Kinshiki was anything to go by. This was at a 3.5 at the start of shippuden, and I'm certain that he uses Taijutsu frequently enough that it would have improved a lot over about 20 years.



Peaking is the not the default stat option for end of series characters.

But an important question should be asked first: is kenjutsu lumped in with taijutsu? I don't think it was ever made clear.

Additionally, a 5 in taijutsu/kenjutsu is not needed to compete with or even overcome someone who's skilled in or has a 5 in taijutsu/kenjutsu. Sasuke has Sharingan precognition and speed. He has never been implied to be a master of kenjutsu, nor is he implied to have honed those skills any further than he had before the Boruto movie. A 1-point improvement in that stat (a half-point away from being a master) is more than fair IMO.

I'm not sure how you can be certain of anything about how frequently Sasuke used taijutsu, let alone that he used it frequently enough to make remarkable improvement (all the way to the master class) when we don't know what he's been doing in his wandering days.



> In The Last, Sakura's genjutsu resistance improved to the point that she could resist Toneri's illusion, something Naruto couldn't do despite being a PJ, and Hinata couldn't do despite having a Byakugan and high chakra control. Genjutsu was always her natural area of talent, so I see no reason why it wouldn't have improved even further in adulthood and reached a 5.



That feat doesn't show any improvement because all of the characters Sakura beat to the punch were worse than her in genjutsu to begin with. Hinata had a 2.5 in genjutsu in the Third Databook--a relatively pathetic score for someone of Sakura's stature. Shikamaru had a 3--worse than Sakura's score. Sakura would've woken up before all of these characters even before the events of The Last.

You seem to have the attitude of "Such and such will naturally progress to the highest class of a given category because they can," or "they've gotten stronger, so why not," but IMO it's not that simple and numbers shouldn't be given out so generously.



> Likewise, her taijutsu should surely have increased to a 5 .. because it's her main combat focus in battle. And given that she can use Byakugou and summon Katsuyu, her ninjutsu should certainly be at a 5, even more so 20 years after the war.



Just because taijutsu is Sakura's main combat focus doesn't mean that she's a master in that area. Why? Because she doesn't need to be in order to be effective. Sakura is far more powerful than Tsunade was, so she can compensate for her lack of taijutsu skill with her unparalleled strength. Sakura having 4.5 in taijutsu as opposed to a 5 contradicts no sort of rule. You could even say that giving Sakura a 4.5 as opposed to a 4 in taijutsu is being generous considering she had a 3 before, and showed off no new taijutsu techniques.

As for ninjutsu, Sakura hasn't made enough improvement to suggest that she has a 5 in that area IMO. Being able to use Byakugou is certainly impressive, but that's just one ninjutsu. Her Sannin sensei who had a 5 in ninjutsu knew at least one more jutsu than Sakura did: Ranshinshou. Moreover, at least one character has mastered an S-Rank jutsu without having a 5 in ninjutsu: Naruto Uzumaki with his arm-ravaging Rasenshuriken.



> Hashirama is a God of Shinobi, like Hiruzen is, except he isn't hindered by age. For that reason alone he should have 5s in every category.



Those two things don't correlate and that conclusion doesn't follow. If Hashirama has greater stamina than Hiruzen, then he should have a greater stamina score. He shouldn't automatically get a 5 in everything for bearing a dated title at a younger age.


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## Mercurial (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> Like I said, Gai is an anomaly. Naruto and Sasuke, not so much.
> 
> Gaara is another anomaly because of his fighting style.
> 
> ...


There are too much anomalies around then, lol.

Asuma clearly meant that both were stronger than him, massively, 1 vs 1, not that Hidan + Kakuzu as a group reached a power level beyond him. Kisame didn't even consider Asuma as a worthy opponent, he was literally using the tip of his sword to fight Asuma, and Asuma was portrayed as completely defenseless against Kisame's Suikodan no jutsu, with Kakashi needing to join the fray and jump between Kisame and Asuma to stop Kisame's technique with his own and save Asuma. Kisame then said that now that Kakashi (Part 1 Kakashi) had arrived, he finally had a worthy opponent to fight seriously with (impling that Asuma wasn't a worthy opponent, and that he just played around against him). Kisame has Samehada fusion, Suiton: Bakusoi Shoha and Dai Bakusoi Shoha, Suiton: Senshokuko and Daikodan no jutsu that literally let him shit on Asuma 24 yrs a day (and he always had those techniques, it's not like he developed them after volume 43 and databook 3). No contest, completely.

Yeah they can be compared. Just as Itachi and Orochimaru have 5/5 in genjutsu and Kakashi and Sakon/Ukon have 5/5 in ninjutsu, and so on...


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Asuma clearly meant that both were stronger than him, massively, 1 vs 1, not that Hidan + Kakuzu as a group reached a power level beyond him.



We'll have to agree to disagree there.



> Kisame didn't even consider Asuma as a worthy opponent, he was literally using the tip of his sword to fight Asuma [...]



And he got injured doing that.



> and Asuma was portrayed as completely defenseless against Kisame's Suikodan no jutsu, with Kakashi needing to join the fray and jump between Kisame and Asuma to stop Kisame's technique with his own and save Asuma



I think you're using slippery wording here. What do you mean Asuma was "portrayed" as completely defenseless? Kisame's attack never reached Asuma. How can a non-feat be "portrayed" in a negative light in regards to Asuma, and what does that even mean? At best, you can speculate about how well Asuma would have been able to deal with that attack, but no one can say for sure because nothing happened. Additionally, Asuma was fighting Kisame in a disadvantageous location to begin with, and he's also at an elemental disadvantage to Kisame specifically.



> Kisame then said that now that Kakashi (Part 1 Kakashi) had arrived, he finally had a worthy opponent to fight seriously with (impling that Asuma wasn't a worthy opponent, and that he just played around against him). Kisame has Samehada fusion, Suiton: Bakusoi Shoha and Dai Bakusoi Shoha, Suiton: Senshokuko and Daikodan no jutsu that literally let him shit on Asuma 24 yrs a day (and he always had those techniques, it's not like he developed them after volume 43 and databook 3). No contest, completely.



What Kisame said is from Kisame's perspective, not the author's.



> Yeah they can be compared. Just as Itachi and Orochimaru have 5/5 in genjutsu and Kakashi and Sakon/Ukon have 5/5 in ninjutsu, and so on...



That's not what I mean.

A 5 in a stat can be compared to anything lower than a 5 (<5) in good conscience IMO. Equal stats cannot be compared.


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## Mercurial (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you think that Asuma is more or less equal to Hidan and Kakuzu and only weaker than Hidan + Kakuzu? I guess why Asuma couldn't even tag Hidan, not even when Asuma + Shikamaru fought Hidan, while Asuma got tagged by Hidan very easily.

And that was because he was playing around casually, while Asuma utilized what was basically his best attack.

He was portrayed as defenseless because Kishimoto made Kakashi enter the fray just right to deflect Kisame's jutsu directed to Asuma. If Asuma could defend himself, Kishimoto would have Asuma defend himself from Kisame's jutsu, and then Kakashi enter the fight, as the plot would have been exactly the same, Kakashi fighting against Itachi and so on. But he made things in a different way. And also had Kisame say that (now that Kakashi arrived) he has a worthy opponent to fight, suggesting that the one who he was fighting previously (Asuma) wasn't a worthy opponent at all. I think this is one of the clearest portrayals in the series.

Characters' perspective, when are declarations of inferiority, are mostly the author's perspective. Like Part 1 Kakashi feeling inferiority towards Orochimaru, or Orochimaru feeling inferiority to Itachi, and so on.

But most equal stats sholdn't be equal because the manga showed a wide gap. Most stats are completely inconsistent, both with manga feats and if you use them to compare characters.


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> So you think that Asuma is more or less equal to Hidan and Kakuzu and only weaker than Hidan + Kakuzu?



No. I do think Asuma is more or less equal to Hidan, though.



> I guess why Asuma couldn't even tag Hidan, not even when Asuma + Shikamaru fought Hidan, while Asuma got tagged by Hidan very easily. And that was because he was playing around casually, while Asuma utilized what was basically his best attack.



Hidan had a significant range advantage in CQC, which is part of what helped him get a scratch on Asuma. Under different circumstances, I think Asuma would have performed much better, but that's for another thread.



> He was portrayed as defenseless because Kishimoto made Kakashi enter the fray just right to deflect Kisame's jutsu directed to Asuma. If Asuma could defend himself, Kishimoto would have Asuma defend himself from Kisame's jutsu, and then Kakashi enter the fight, as the plot would have been exactly the same, Kakashi fighting against Itachi and so on. But he made things in a different way. And also had Kisame say that (now that Kakashi arrived) he has a worthy opponent to fight, suggesting that the one who he was fighting previously (Asuma) wasn't a worthy opponent at all. I think this is one of the clearest portrayals in the series.



That's an assumption about what the author had in mind with absolutely nothing to back it up. As readers, we can only really analyze the manga, not the creative process that went into making it.



> Characters' perspective, when are declarations of inferiority, are mostly the author's perspective. Like Part 1 Kakashi feeling inferiority towards Orochimaru, or Orochimaru feeling inferiority to Itachi, and so on.



It's factually not. The author isn't a character in the manga. He can make the characters say things to create a certain effect or impression, but he doesn't step into the manga himself to tell us things. As for your example with Kisame, his statement was one that implied superiority--a type of statement that is notorious for not being valid at face value because they come from a biased and often uninformed perspective (*ex:* Sasuke thinking he's stronger than Itachi, Deidara thinking he's stronger than Sasuke, etc.).



> *But most equal stats sholdn't be equal because the manga showed a wide gap.* Most stats are completely inconsistent, both with manga feats and if you use them to compare characters.



I'm not entirely certain how this relates to what I said, but I don't think stats that are equal should be compared in the first place.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> Peaking is the not the default stat option for end of series characters.



No, but we had characters like the Sannin, Kakashi, Itachi and Hiruzen reaching between 34-36 in stat totals, and I'm certain that end game Team 7 are portrayed on another level to that.



> But an important question should be asked first: is kenjutsu lumped in with taijutsu? I don't think it was ever made clear.
> 
> Additionally, a 5 in taijutsu/kenjutsu is not needed to compete with or even overcome someone who's skilled in or has a 5 in taijutsu/kenjutsu. Sasuke has Sharingan precognition and speed. He has never been implied to be a master of kenjutsu, nor is he implied to have honed those skills any further than he had before the Boruto movie. A 1-point improvement in that stat (a half-point away from being a master) is more than fair IMO.
> 
> I'm not sure how you can be certain of anything about how frequently Sasuke used taijutsu, let alone that he used it frequently enough to make remarkable improvement (all the way to the master class) when we don't know what he's been doing in his wandering days.



I'm not sure, but I would guess that it is. Otherwise we'd have to consider Gai's nunchuku style as separate to his taijutsu skill, Hidan's scythe skills as separate, Hiruzen's Enma staff skills separate etc. And I'm pretty sure all those characters have 4.5/5s because of their diverse knowledge of taijutsu attacks, which should include using weapons. What I do know is that Sasuke had a 3.5 in taijutsu as a teenager - it went up a point over the time skip, meaning it was a skill he had been training. Logically, then, he should go up to a 5 20 years afterwards, if he had continued training and honing his skills in battle.



> That feat doesn't show any improvement because all of the characters Sakura beat to the punch were worse than her in genjutsu to begin with. Hinata had a 2.5 in genjutsu in the Third Databook--a relatively pathetic score for someone of Sakura's stature. Shikamaru had a 3--worse than Sakura's score. Sakura would've woken up before all of these characters even before the events of The Last.



True, but Shikamaru becomes a Jounin in The Last, meaning all of his skills had to be above average in order for him to have gotten the title. He showed a knack for genjutsu early on when he was only one of two Genin-levels capable of dispelling Kabuto's illusion. And then again when he immediately recognises that he's caught in an illusion by Tayuya's flute. Unlike Jiraiya who actively admitted that he was bad with Genjutsu and capped at a 3, Shikamaru showed promise at a young age, and so I think it's probable that his genjutsu talent went up if he attained the rank of Jounin.



> You seem to have the attitude of "Such and such will naturally progress to the highest class of a given category because they can," or "they've gotten stronger, so why not," but IMO it's not that simple and numbers shouldn't be given out so generously.



We see teenaged characters progressing by one or two points in the DB stats over a period of two and a half years. Over a period of at least 20 I think it's logical to assume that their stats have jumped up more dramatically.



> Just because taijutsu is Sakura's main combat focus doesn't mean that she's a master in that area. Why? Because she doesn't need to be in order to be effective. Sakura is far more powerful than Tsunade was, so she can compensate for her lack of taijutsu skill with her unparalleled strength. Sakura having 4.5 in taijutsu as opposed to a 5 contradicts no sort of rule. You could even say that giving Sakura a 4.5 as opposed to a 4 in taijutsu is being generous considering she had a 3 before, and showed off no new taijutsu techniques.



Sakura was taught by a master of taijutsu. I see no logical reason why she wouldn't eventually inherit her master's taijutsu skill and surpass her. I mean I doubt Tsubade randomly decided she didn't want to teach Sakura anymore after the War arc, and stopped. Sakura then had another 10+ years to hone her skills; it's more logical to assume she mastered the skill she was vigorously training herself in over the timeskip, than to assume she dramatically slowed down her progress and capped at a 4.5 because she didn't seem it necessary to train that skill anymore.



> As for ninjutsu, Sakura hasn't made enough improvement to suggest that she has a 5 in that area IMO. Being able to use Byakugou is certainly impressive, but that's just one ninjutsu. Her Sannin sensei who had a 5 in ninjutsu knew at least one more jutsu than Sakura did: Ranshinshou. Moreover, at least one character has mastered an S-Rank jutsu without having a 5 in ninjutsu: Naruto Uzumaki with his arm-ravaging Rasenshuriken.



True, but it's possible for 2 characters to cap at 5 and for one to still be superior to the other ie. Itachi and Kurenai in genjutsu, or Gai and Tsunade in strength. Naruto did learn the Rasenshuriken, but it was an incomplete version that he didn't master until later on. Sakura masters ninjutsu that even Shizune was incapable of learning, and Shizune had a 4.5. I should remind you, Infuin: Kai, Souzou Saisei and Byakugou are three different techniques that she would have had to learn individually, and they're all S Ranked. Furthermore, Sakura learns not only to summon Katsuyu (something she couldn't do at the start of Part II) but also to use her Immense Network Healing, an A Ranked Technique. After the War Arc, Sakura opens up her own children's clinic and devotes her time to medical research. Her ninjutsu could only have improved from there.



> Those two things don't correlate and that conclusion doesn't follow. If Hashirama has greater stamina than Hiruzen, then he should have a greater stamina score. He shouldn't automatically get a 5 in everything for bearing a dated title at a younger age.



I think he should. Even feat wise, he dominates in almost every area. He obviously gets a 5 in ninjutsu because of Mokuton and his possession of all five elements. He should certainly get a 5 in taijutsu because he's able to tango with Madara in close quarters, who possesses Sharingan precognition and appeared to move faster than him. In an extremely weakened form, he uses a high-level illusion on Hiruzen (who has a 5/5 in genjutsu) who is incapable of breaking out, and is forced to rely on his sense of smell. In Stamina he is compared to Naruto. Strength-wise, he possesses the ability to wield and throw huge weapons:

x

Plus he has the body of the Rikudou, and he's a Senju, and Tsunade's grandfather no less.

He has a grand wealth of knowledge on just about everything, and even if he is less intelligent than Tobirama, he's got enough intellect to be deservant of a 5.

He showed a wide variety of hand-seals on panel, and given that he's so proficient in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and that he's clearly very intelligent, I think he should have a 5 in this area too.

The only area that I can't testify for is his speed, which I don't believe is top-tier level, but then he's hardly a snail to have followed Obito's movements, or to have sparred with Madara.


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No, but we had characters like the Sannin, Kakashi, Itachi and Hiruzen reaching between 34-36 in stat totals, and I'm certain that end game Team 7 are portrayed on another level to that.



End-game main character and his rival, maybe. End-game Sakura and Kakashi? Not IMO.



> I'm not sure, but I would guess that it is. Otherwise we'd have to consider Gai's nunchuku style as separate to his taijutsu skill, Hidan's scythe skills as separate, Hiruzen's Enma staff skills separate etc. And I'm pretty sure all those characters have 4.5/5s because of their diverse knowledge of taijutsu attacks, which should include using weapons. What I do know is that Sasuke had a 3.5 in taijutsu as a teenager - it went up a point over the time skip, meaning it was a skill he had been training. *Logically, then, he should go up to a 5 20 years afterwards, if he had continued training and honing his skills in battle.*



Not really. People can plateau or have smaller gains just like when building new muscles.



> True, but Shikamaru becomes a Jounin in The Last, meaning all of his skills had to be above average in order for him to have gotten the title. He showed a knack for genjutsu early on when he was only one of two Genin-levels capable of dispelling Kabuto's illusion. And then again when he immediately recognises that he's caught in an illusion by Tayuya's flute. Unlike Jiraiya who actively admitted that he was bad with Genjutsu and capped at a 3, Shikamaru showed promise at a young age, and so I think it's probable that his genjutsu talent went up if he attained the rank of Jounin.



Sure. None of this really has any bearing on the point I made about the Hanabi Rescue Squad's genjutsu skill in relation to Sakura, though.



> We see teenaged characters progressing by one or two points in the DB stats over a period of two and a half years. Over a period of at least 20 I think it's logical to assume that their stats have jumped up more dramatically.



One of the reasons that those characters grew so rapidly is _because_ they were teenagers. You develop at a much faster rate in those years than you do in old age.



> Sakura was taught by a master of taijutsu. I see no logical reason why she wouldn't eventually inherit her master's taijutsu skill and surpass her. I mean I doubt Tsubade randomly decided she didn't want to teach Sakura anymore after the War arc, and stopped. Sakura then had another 10+ years to hone her skills; it's more logical to assume she mastered the skill she was vigorously training herself in over the timeskip, than to assume she dramatically slowed down her progress and capped at a 4.5 because she didn't seem it necessary to train that skill anymore.



If Sakura's growth slowed down, it would probably be moreso due to age and having slower gains than anything. Tsunade had a 5 in taijutsu at 50, not at 15. The logical reasons are as simple as growth rate (which is non-linear) and age.



> True, but it's possible for 2 characters to cap at 5 and for one to still be superior to the other ie. Itachi and Kurenai in genjutsu, or Gai and Tsunade in strength. Naruto did learn the Rasenshuriken, but it was an incomplete version that he didn't master until later on. Sakura masters ninjutsu that even Shizune was incapable of learning, and Shizune had a 4.5. I should remind you, Infuin: Kai, Souzou Saisei and Byakugou are three different techniques that she would have had to learn individually, and they're all S Ranked. Furthermore, Sakura learns not only to summon Katsuyu (something she couldn't do at the start of Part II) but also to use her Immense Network Healing, an A Ranked Technique. After the War Arc, Sakura opens up her own children's clinic and devotes her time to medical research. Her ninjutsu could only have improved from there.



Those are all valid points, and perhaps I was a bit stingy in the ninjutsu category. I could see Sakura having a 5 in that area.



> I think he should. Even feat wise, he dominates in almost every area. He obviously gets a 5 in ninjutsu because of Mokuton and his possession of all five elements. He should certainly get a 5 in taijutsu because he's able to tango with Madara in close quarters, who possesses Sharingan precognition and appeared to move faster than him. In an extremely weakened form, he uses a high-level illusion on Hiruzen (who has a 5/5 in genjutsu) who is incapable of breaking out, and is forced to rely on his sense of smell. In Stamina he is compared to Naruto. Strength-wise, he possesses the ability to wield and throw huge weapons:
> 
> x
> 
> ...



Speaking of Madara, I don't think he'd have a 5 in taijutsu either. Much like Sasuke, he has Sharingan precognition and high speed to help him out in close quarters, and I would expect those areas to be more exceptional than his taijutsu prowess relative to other characters. The illusion that Hashirama used on Hiruzen was powerful, true, but it was no Tsukuyomi. Hashirama didn't specialize in or use a wide array of genjutsu like Kurenai, and genjutsu isn't his calling card. A single A-Rank jutsu a genjutsu master does not one make, IMO, and that one jutsu isn't enough for me to consider giving Hashirama a 5 in genjutsu.

As for the weapons, lugging those around isn't much more impressive than Kakashi lugging around Kubikiribocho with no prior conditioning. I certainly don't see evidence of roof-tier strength in Hashirama like I do Tsunade.

As for intelligence, Hashirama is like Naruto: goofy and not exceptionally bright. Tobirama even likens him to Naruto after originally thinking he was an idiot. To emphasize how rarely a 5 in intelligence is awarded, these are the only characters with a 5 in intelligence off the top of my head:

Itachi
Kakashi
Kabuto
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Sasori
Chiyo
A very special group of individuals, indeed. Hashirama just doesn't belong to that group IMO.



> *He showed a wide variety of hand-seals on panel*, and given that he's so proficient in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and that he's clearly very intelligent, I think he should have a 5 in this area too.



Did he? The only hand seal I recall Hashirama showing was snake.

Ninjutsu proficiency doesn't really correlate to hand seals. The number of ninjutsu one can use maybe (and that's almost just as iffy), but proficiency not so much. Hashirama's genjutsu proficiency consists of a single known genjutsu. I don't think Hashirama's any more skilled than Jiraiya in this regard, and that's not a poor reflection on Hashirama's abilities. Intelligence definitely has nothing to do with hand seals.



> The only area that I can't testify for is his speed, which I don't believe is top-tier level, but then he's hardly a snail to have followed Obito's movements, or to have sparred with Madara.



I think Hashirama has roof-tier speed too, actually. That one was a mistake.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alex Payne (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> Hashirama's genjutsu proficiency consists of a single known genjutsu. *I don't think Hashirama's any more skilled than Jiraiya in this regard*, and that's not a poor reflection on Hashirama's abilities..


Are you serious?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> End-game main character and his rival, maybe. End-game Sakura and Kakashi? Not IMO.



Maybe not Kakashi, but Sakura yes. She helps to defeat Kaguya without any uber-power-up, would have defeated Shin single-handedly if not for his army of minions intervening, and Boruto even names her as a suitable replacement for Hokage. Not to mention, she surpasses Tsunade, who peaked at 35/40. So she's certainly deserving of at least being around the same level as her team-mates in base stats, who almost fully peak.





> Not really. People can plateau or have smaller gains just like when building new muscles.



But why should we assume that Team 7 (excluding Kakashi) peaked before they reached their physical prime, which is some time in their 20s? And if the Sannin are anything to go by, even in their 30s their physical stats shouldn't have suffered much, and their knowledge of techniques simply widen. Sasuke should be no different because .. he's Sasuke.



> Sure. None of this really has any bearing on the point I made about the Hanabi Rescue Squad's genjutsu skill in relation to Sakura, though.



It does. Shikamaru had a 3 in genjutsu, while Sakura had a 3.5. If Shikamaru's genjutsu skill went up, that would mean Sakura's did too, because she saw through the illusion while he didn't.



> One of the reasons that those characters grew so rapidly is _because_ they were teenagers. You develop at a much faster rate in those years than you do in old age.



And you continue to do so up until you hit your mid 20s. And even if their rate of progress slowed after that, they had at least _20 years _to train. Slow progress or not, its very likely that they grew more in that time than they did over the timeskip.



> If Sakura's growth slowed down, it would probably be moreso due to age and having slower gains than anything. Tsunade had a 5 in taijutsu at 50, not at 15. The logical reasons are as simple as growth rate (which is non-linear) and age.



Tsunade had a 5 in tajutsu long before that. She quit the world of shinobi and went into exile for about 20 years. If anything, her physical stats were even better in her 30s.




> Those are all valid points, and perhaps I was a bit stingy in the ninjutsu category. I could see Sakura having a 5 in that area.







> Speaking of Madara, I don't think he'd have a 5 in taijutsu either. Much like Sasuke, he has Sharingan precognition and high speed to help him out in close quarters, and I would expect those areas to be more exceptional than his taijutsu prowess relative to other characters.



I don't think Madara had a 5 in taijutsu, though I could see it being at a 4 or 4.5. Furthermore, it seemed as though Madara was somewhat faster than Hashirama, and that coupled with his sharingan precognition should have made him a more fierce combatant in CQC. But the truth is that Hashirama completely matched Madara in close-range, leading me to believe that Hashirama was better at raw taijutsu, enough to close the gap between Madara's higher speed and precog.



> The illusion that Hashirama used on Hiruzen was powerful, true, but it was no Tsukuyomi. Hashirama didn't specialize in or use a wide array of genjutsu like Kurenai, and genjutsu isn't his calling card. A single A-Rank jutsu a genjutsu master does not one make, IMO, and that one jutsu isn't enough for me to consider giving Hashirama a 5 in genjutsu.



Senju means "One Thousand Hands", alluding to the Senju clan's proficiency in a wide array of jutsu, and Hashirama was the strongest Senju it ever produced. Just because Genjutsu wasn't his favoured method of combat, it doesn't mean he was any less knowledgeable of it. Hiruzen also didn't use Genjutsu much, but we can be sure that he possessed a very high knowledge and resistance to it. I don't think Hashirama is as proficient in genjutsu as Itachi, or maybe even as talented as Kurenai, but he doesn't need to be as good as them to still be deservant of that 5, Tayuya and Hiruzen are perfect examples of that.



> As for the weapons, lugging those around isn't much more impressive than Kakashi lugging around Kubikiribocho with no prior conditioning. I certainly don't see evidence of roof-tier strength in Hashirama like I do Tsunade.



Again, though, he doesn't need to be as strong as Tsunade to be deserving of that 5. Jirobo also has a 5 in strength, so does Might Gai. I can understand why you might have placed him at a 4.5, but given the hype of the Rikudo, whose strong body Hashirama is said to possess, and given that Tsunade gets her superhuman genes _from_ Hashirama, I think its likely that his physical strength is also tremendous (albeit, not inhuman like Tsunade or Kisame's).



> As for intelligence, Hashirama is like Naruto: goofy and not exceptionally bright. Tobirama even likens him to Naruto after originally thinking he was an idiot. To emphasize how rarely a 5 in intelligence is awarded, these are the only characters with a 5 in intelligence off the top of my head:



And yet, despite Naruto being regarded as goofy and slow, he still ranks a 3/5 at the beginning of Shippuden. Thats sheerly based on his tactical brilliance and general knowledge. While Hashirama is overly optimistic and a bit childish, he never comes off as unintelligent like Naruto does, even at the worst of times. His 'goofiness' is nowhere near on the same scale as Naruto's, but his wealth of battle experience and knowledge of history, jutsu, combat-styles and opponents is leagues above beginning of Part II Naruto's. And its not like he hasn't shown to be tactical in battles, either.



> Itachi
> Kakashi
> Kabuto
> Orochimaru
> ...



Hiruzen can also be goofy, perving on women and naming it as a hobby lol. Yet that doesn't overshadow his genius during battles or his wealth of battle experience. The others on that list probably possess more raw intelligence, the kind that would score them higher on an IQ test, but when we consider that the likes of Deidara and Jiraiya have 4.5s in the DB, I think Hashirama's battle genus and experience makes him deserving of a 5.



> Did he? The only hand seal I recall Hashirama showing was snake.



All you need to do is look up the seals required for his various techniques, of which there are many different kinds for each one.



> Ninjutsu proficiency doesn't really correlate to hand seals. The number of ninjutsu one can use maybe (and that's almost just as iffy), but proficiency not so much. Hashirama's genjutsu proficiency consists of a single known genjutsu. I don't think Hashirama's any more skilled than Jiraiya in this regard, and that's not a poor reflection on Hashirama's abilities. Intelligence definitely has nothing to do with hand seals.



We can't be sure what intelligence actually represents. I think, like every stat, it differs between characters. But there is a consistent trend among highly intelligent, highly skilled ninjutsu and/or genjutsu users, to have an equally as high hand-seals statistic. Examples include Hiruzen, Orochimaru, Kakashi, Shizune, Kabuto, Hiashi and Itachi. Exceptions exist, like Jiraiya, but then I think Hashirama is both better at ninjutsu and more book smart than Jiraiya. There's also Tsunade, but she doesn't use ninjutsu or genjutsu offensively nearly as much as Hashirama, giving her a reason not to excel at handseals. I can think of Chiyo too, but Chiyo mainly uses puppet strings, which don't require hand-seals in the first instance.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 25, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Why?
> 
> Naruto has never been a genjutsu type. Even if he may be able to defend against genjutsu, I don't think he has enough knowledge and proficiency in it to score that high...
> 
> ...



Sakura hasn't shown me enough in the manga to warrant a 5 and in the datebook Tsunade has mastered more elements than Sakura has


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## Kyu (Jul 25, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> *Naruto Uzumaki*
> Ninjutsu: 5
> Taijutsu: 5
> Genjutsu: 4.5
> ...



Shouldn't Naruto easily be a 5 in strength?

He uppercutted Sasuke with his non-dominant several dozens of meters into the air, well past the brink of exhaustion. Fast forward two years later, he KO'd a god tier by channeling chakra into his arm - assuming you're factoring in chakra augmented blows seeing as you gave Sakura a 5.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Shouldn't Naruto easily be a 5 in strength?
> 
> He uppercutted Sasuke with his non-dominant several dozes on meters into the air, well past the brink of exhaustion. Fast forward two years later, he KO'd a god tier by channeling chakra into his arm - assuming you're factoring in chakra augmented blows seeing as you gave Sakura a 5.



I'm not factoring in chakra-enhanced strength. Without any chakra enhancements, Sakura punched her entire house down out of sheer frustration at Sarada. As for knocking Sasuke away, I don't think that means a great deal, plenty of characters have replicated those kind of feats (Part I Sakura and Omoi come to mind).


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## Kyu (Jul 25, 2016)

Ok, fair enough. 

Reading your explanation on Sakura's high ninjutsu stat I can't say I disagree with the ninjutsu score you gave her. Would you say EoS Sakura's _39.5_ suggest she could (at most) hold her own against EoS Naruto/Sasuke's base forms 1v1? Or are your total scores based solely on rating an individual & not designed to be put up against someone else's?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Ok, fair enough.
> 
> Reading your explanation on Sakura's high ninjutsu stat I can't say I disagree with the ninjutsu score you gave her. Would you say EoS Sakura's _39.5_ suggest she could (at most) hold her own against EoS Naruto/Sasuke's base forms 1v1? Or are your total scores based solely on rating an individual & not designed to be put up against someone else's?



Its hard to say. Tsunade and Orochimaru are around the same level as Itachi according to the DB, but the latter is defeated rather easily by Itachi, and the former gives him mid difficulty at best. Sasuke regards Sakura as strong - he struggles to defeat Shin by himself (though he was capable of it), but he is also confident that Sakura could defeat him too. I guess she could give the pair a run for their money, at least until they start unleashing crazy Susano'os and enhancing their attacks with uber chakras.


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## Icelerate (Jul 25, 2016)

Databook stats  in the 4th databook weren't included for a good reason. Asking what stats top tier characters is dumb because even characters far from top tier have 4.5+ in various categories.

It would be more interesting if you asked what databook scores should be given to various non top tier characters.
My definition of top tier is anyone above high kage level.

*Sakura Haruno*
Ninjutsu: 5.0 (by the war arc)
Taijutsu: 4.5 (assumption based on power scaling)
Genjutsu: 3.5
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 5.0
Speed: 5.0 (assumption based on power scaling)
Stamina: 5.0
Handseals: 4.0
_Total: 37.0

*Minato Namikaze*
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 3.0 
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 4.5
Handseals: 5.0
Total: 35.5_
_
*Tobirama*
Ninjutsu: 5.0
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 3.5 
Intelligence: 5.0
Strength: 4.0
Speed: 5.0
Stamina: 4.5
Handseals: 5.0
Total: 36.5_


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 25, 2016)

Icelerate said:


> Databook stats  in the 4th databook weren't included for a good reason. Asking what stats top tier characters is dumb because even characters far from top tier have 4.5+ in various categories.
> 
> It would be more interesting if you asked what databook scores should be given to various non top tier characters.
> My definition of top tier is anyone above high kage level.
> ...


Sakura with Handseals 4 and 5 in Speed!? And she having more than Minato and Tobirama!? I know stats are shit most of the time but still!? o_O


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## Icelerate (Jul 25, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Sakura with Handseals 4 and 5 in Speed!? And she having more than Minato and Tobirama!? I know stats are shit most of the time but still!? o_O


Every single databook gave Sakura a 4 in hand seals. War arc Sakura is easily 4.5 in speed as she's above early Shippuden Neji, Asuma, Deidara, Sasori, etc. A few years later, why do you think she can't be 5.0 based on power scaling. 

Her having total stats higher than Minato and Tobirama means nothing. It's just a calculated figure.   

Do you actually have anything constructive to post instead of saying my stats are shit?


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 25, 2016)

Icelerate said:


> Every single databook gave Sakura a 4 in hand seals. War arc Sakura is easily 4.5 in speed as she's above early Shippuden Neji, Asuma, Deidara, Sasori, etc. A few years later, why do you think she can't be 5.0 based on power scaling.
> 
> Her having total stats higher than Minato and Tobirama means nothing. It's just a calculated figure.
> 
> Do you actually have anything constructive to post instead of saying my stats are shit?


Lol no one said anything about YOUR Stats being shit man,I meant that the Stats thing in Naruto DB are mostly shit because of the feats and the inconsistency  of Kishi. Please read carefully before going wild!

Sakura doesn't use Seals so much if any at all,so no reason to consider she became more skilled with them! How do you made the assumption that Sakura was 4.5 in the War!? All she does is Puch,Summon and Heal!?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Stats are not anymore shit than the manga. Both were written by Kishimoto, both have inconsistencies, both are equally as valid and relevant.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Saru (Jul 25, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Are you serious?



I was talking about hand seals, not genjutsu, lol. Bad choice of organization on my part.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Maybe not Kakashi, but Sakura yes. She helps to defeat Kaguya without any uber-power-up, would have defeated Shin single-handedly if not for his army of minions intervening, and Boruto even names her as a suitable replacement for Hokage. Not to mention, she surpasses Tsunade, who peaked at 35/40. So she's certainly deserving of at least being around the same level as her team-mates in base stats, who almost fully peak.



I think Itachi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, etc. would have performed just as well as Sakura did in those situations or better, and Shin was not a particularly formidable opponent.

When was it stated that Sakura surpassed Tsunade, exactly (specifically in genjutsu, taijutsu, speed, etc.)?



> But why should we assume that Team 7 (excluding Kakashi) peaked before they reached their physical prime, which is some time in their 20s? And if the Sannin are anything to go by, even in their 30s their physical stats shouldn't have suffered much, and their knowledge of techniques simply widen. Sasuke should be no different because .. he's Sasuke.



"Because he's Sasuke" isn't a very strong argument. You ask the question "why should we assume they peaked," but I see no reason to assume they kept growing all the way to roof-tier or master class. It's not like I assigned them the same Databook score they had when they were teenagers; their stats surely improved, just not to the highest level in all categories.



> It does. Shikamaru had a 3 in genjutsu, while Sakura had a 3.5. If Shikamaru's genjutsu skill went up, that would mean Sakura's did too, because she saw through the illusion while he didn't.



"If."

Additionally, there can still be a difference in skill between equal stats.



> And you continue to do so up until you hit your mid 20s. And even if their rate of progress slowed after that, they had at least _20 years _to train. *Slow progress or not, its very likely that they grew more in that time than they did over the timeskip.*



Why?



> Tsunade had a 5 in tajutsu long before that. She quit the world of shinobi and went into exile for about 20 years. If anything, her physical stats were even better in her 30s.



That's just conjecture, though, and it still doesn't mean that Sakura was able to become as skilled as her in the area or went through the same sort of training. Like I said, with her strength she certainly wouldn't need to.



>







> I don't think Madara had a 5 in taijutsu, though I could see it being at a 4 or 4.5. Furthermore, it seemed as though Madara was somewhat faster than Hashirama, and that coupled with his sharingan precognition should have made him a more fierce combatant in CQC. But the truth is that Hashirama completely matched Madara in close-range, leading me to believe that Hashirama was better at raw taijutsu, enough to close the gap between Madara's higher speed and precog.



I think that could definitely be the case as well, but Madara's speed feats were so great that I find it hard to believe someone without a roof-tier taijutsu stat could keep up with him. Even Sage Mode Naruto had trouble dealing with Madara, and although I think that was due to Madara's EMS precognition as well, Naruto should certainly have roof-tier speed in Sage Mode.



> Senju means "One Thousand Hands", alluding to the Senju clan's proficiency in a wide array of jutsu, and Hashirama was the strongest Senju it ever produced. Just because Genjutsu wasn't his favoured method of combat, it doesn't mean he was any less knowledgeable of it. Hiruzen also didn't use Genjutsu much, but we can be sure that he possessed a very high knowledge and resistance to it. I don't think Hashirama is as proficient in genjutsu as Itachi, or maybe even as talented as Kurenai, but he doesn't need to be as good as them to still be deservant of that 5, Tayuya and Hiruzen are perfect examples of that.



Sure, but there's a clear trend of characters with a 5 in genjutsu relying heavily on that category and having a wide array of genjutsu. Hashirama isn't implied to have that same level of reliance or mastery anywhere.



> Again, though, he doesn't need to be as strong as Tsunade to be deserving of that 5. Jirobo also has a 5 in strength, so does Might Gai. I can understand why you might have placed him at a 4.5, but given the hype of the Rikudo, whose strong body Hashirama is said to possess, and given that Tsunade gets her superhuman genes _from_ Hashirama, I think its likely that his physical strength is also tremendous (albeit, not inhuman like Tsunade or Kisame's).



Naruto was also a transmigrant, and there's no sign that his strength is roof-tier. What Tsunade inherited from Hashirama was his medical ninjutsu prowess and life force, not his strength. Not all of Rikudou's descendants have roof-tier strength, and even if Hashirama was the pride of the Senju Clan, it doesn't mean that he had roof-tier strength or even that he was physically the strongest.



> And yet, despite Naruto being regarded as goofy and slow, he still ranks a 3/5 at the beginning of Shippuden. Thats sheerly based on his tactical brilliance and general knowledge. While Hashirama is overly optimistic and a bit childish, he never comes off as unintelligent like Naruto does, even at the worst of times. His 'goofiness' is nowhere near on the same scale as Naruto's, but his wealth of battle experience and knowledge of history, jutsu, combat-styles and opponents is leagues above beginning of Part II Naruto's. And its not like he hasn't shown to be tactical in battles, either.
> 
> Hiruzen can also be goofy, perving on women and naming it as a hobby lol. Yet that doesn't overshadow his genius during battles or his wealth of battle experience. The others on that list probably possess more raw intelligence, the kind that would score them higher on an IQ test, but when we consider that the likes of Deidara and Jiraiya have 4.5s in the DB, I think Hashirama's battle genus and experience makes him deserving of a 5.



End of series Naruto doesn't come across as unintelligent either, nor is a 4.5 in intelligence a poor score. Hashirama's experienced, but he's not smart or analytical like the other shinobi with a verified 5 in intelligence.

I'm not sure how Hashirama is above "the likes of Jiraiya" in intelligence either. Jiraiya was more experienced than he was smart, and Hashirama comes across as very much the same way. I'd also have to reemphasize the fact that there are differences in skill between characters with the same score in a given area.



> All you need to do is look up the seals required for his various techniques, of which there are many different kinds for each one.
> 
> We can't be sure what intelligence actually represents. I think, like every stat, it differs between characters. But there is a consistent trend among highly intelligent, highly skilled ninjutsu and/or genjutsu users, to have an equally as high hand-seals statistic. Examples include Hiruzen, Orochimaru, Kakashi, Shizune, Kabuto, Hiashi and Itachi. Exceptions exist, like Jiraiya, but then I think Hashirama is both better at ninjutsu and more book smart than Jiraiya. There's also Tsunade, but she doesn't use ninjutsu or genjutsu offensively nearly as much as Hashirama, giving her a reason not to excel at handseals. I can think of Chiyo too, but Chiyo mainly uses puppet strings, which don't require hand-seals in the first instance.




Requiring lots of hand seals for jutsu doesn't necessarily mean that a character has master-class skill in that area. Kakashi and Itachi, two of the only characters who had a 5 in hand seals, had their hand seal speed emphasized in the manga. Shizune, who also has a 5 in hand seals, is very skilled at chakra control. If I had to make an inference, I would say that the score for hand seals is based on chakra control and hand seal weaving speed. In the manga, neither Hashirama's hand seal speed nor his chakra control was particularly emphasized, and a 4.5 in hand seals is a higher score than what Jiraiya had, so I think it's a very reasonable score.

But I agree with you that, overall, hand seals are just an ambiguous stat.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 26, 2016)

Can't believe I just saw Naruto with a 5 in intellect and Sakura having the same score as Tobirama and Minato.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 26, 2016)

Saru said:


> I think Itachi, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, etc. would have performed just as well as Sakura did in those situations or better, and Shin was not a particularly formidable opponent.



Admittedly, Shin didn't seem _that_ threatening, but he did manage to react to Sasuke, who moves ridiculously fast, and stab Naruto with a sword. And yet despite that, and possessing many Sharingan in his head, Sakura was able to run up to him and KO. I don't think Tsunade, Itachi or anyone else could have done the same, based on their feats.



> When was it stated that Sakura surpassed Tsunade, exactly (specifically in genjutsu, taijutsu, speed, etc.)?



It wasn't stated anywhere, though she doesn't need to have surpassed Tsunade in taijutsu in order to still possess a 5, they should be about as skilled as one another at this point in time. In Genjutsu, Sakura and Tsunade were equal already, and Kakashi cites Sakura's natural talent with genjutsu as one of the main reasons that she would go on to surpass the Fifth. 20 years on, I'd like to think that statement had came to light. In speed, Sakura had already reacted to Kaguya's chakra arm and blitzed Shin, neither of which I think Tsunade is capable of.



> "Because he's Sasuke" isn't a very strong argument. You ask the question "why should we assume they peaked," but I see no reason to assume they kept growing all the way to roof-tier or master class. It's not like I assigned them the same Databook score they had when they were teenagers; their stats surely improved, just not to the highest level in all categories.



We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think it's a perfectly logical argument because Sasuke is one of the main protagonists, and at the end of the series, after leaving the village many times and performing many high-level secret missions over a period of 20 years, it just seems nonsensical to me that his skills wouldn't have _dramatically_ increased. Sasuke is literally God-Level, he isn't like other ninja who need an abundance of hype and statements to support a 5/5, Sasuke gets it by virtue of being a God-Level main protagonist who excels in all areas. On the contrary, with Sasuke and Naruto, we need reasons _not_ to give them 5s, which we have with stats like physical strength or intelligence, but that's about it.



> "If."
> 
> Additionally, there can still be a difference in skill between equal stats.



We're basing almost all of our assumptions on "If", and you seemed to think Shikamaru's skill increase was plausible too. And yeah, a very marginal difference. Not enough that Shikamaru was totally incapable of seeing through the illusion, while she was, imo.





> Why?



Because .. its 20 years, 'nuff said. 20 years of missions, 20 years of research, 20 years of battling various different opponents.



> That's just conjecture, though, and it still doesn't mean that Sakura was able to become as skilled as her in the area or went through the same sort of training. Like I said, with her strength she certainly wouldn't need to.



You could easily say the same thing about Tsunade. Her superhuman strength is so great that surely she doesn't need to be roof-tier in taijutsu because she one-shots and blows up the ground anyway. But she does have a 5 in taijutsu, and she trains Sakura specifically in taijutsu using her evasive training-style, so I just don't know why she wouldn't at least equal Tsunade in that area after continuing under her tutelage. There's really no reason she shouldn't, I think you're being unnecessarily critical of Sakura here.



> I think that could definitely be the case as well, but Madara's speed feats were so great that I find it hard to believe someone without a roof-tier taijutsu stat could keep up with him. Even Sage Mode Naruto had trouble dealing with Madara, and although I think that was due to Madara's EMS precognition as well, Naruto should certainly have roof-tier speed in Sage Mode.



Which is why Hashirama probably does have a roof-tier taijutsu stat. SM Naruto never actually engaged Madara in a prolonged taijutsu battle iirc, it was just a case of Madara, with Hashirama's Senjutsu powering him, waltzing up to Naruto and blitzing. And I wouldn't say SM Naruto exactly has a roof-tier taijutsu ability either.



> Sure, but there's a clear trend of characters with a 5 in genjutsu relying heavily on that category and having a wide array of genjutsu. Hashirama isn't implied to have that same level of reliance or mastery anywhere.



Itachi is the only character with a 5 in genjutsu who used more than one illusion. Tayuya didn't, Orochimaru didn't, Kurenai didn't, Hiruzen didn't. And neither Tayuya, Orochimaru nor Hiruzen relied heavily on genjutsu, they preferred ninjutsu and taijutsu. Kurenai does use genjutsu often, but then, like Itachi, she's likely even better at genjutsu than any of the others with 5s. 2/5 isn't much of a trend.



> Naruto was also a transmigrant, and there's no sign that his strength is roof-tier. What Tsunade inherited from Hashirama was his medical ninjutsu prowess and life force, not his strength. Not all of Rikudou's descendants have roof-tier strength, and even if Hashirama was the pride of the Senju Clan, it doesn't mean that he had roof-tier strength or even that he was physically the strongest.



Naruto was also an Uzumaki-Namikaze hybrid, and I don't think the Uzumaki, even the non-hybrids, were as closely linked to Asura as the Senju were. I always thought this was implied by Hashirama wielding Mokuton, something previously only seen by the God Tree, a manifestation of Kaguya's power. I guess I could maybe see Hashirama having a 4.5 in strength, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had a 5 either. 



> End of series Naruto doesn't come across as unintelligent either, nor is a 4.5 in intelligence a poor score. Hashirama's experienced, but he's not smart or analytical like the other shinobi with a verified 5 in intelligence.



But, ultimately, more intelligent than either Jiraiya or Naruto. He deserves a 5, whether or not he matches Tsunade, Kabuto, Orochimaru etc. doesn't need to come into it. If it existed, I'd be inclined to give Hashirama a 4.75, but it doesn't, and we may as well bump the God of Shinobi up to a 5 instead of let him hang at a 4.5 where he noticeably outclasses his competition.



> I'm not sure how Hashirama is above "the likes of Jiraiya" in intelligence either. Jiraiya was more experienced than he was smart, and Hashirama comes across as very much the same way. I'd also have to reemphasize the fact that there are differences in skill between characters with the same score in a given area.



Hashirama was always reverred as powerful, even in his youth. Jiraiya was incompetent, like Naruto was. But in the end he still garners enough experience to get a 4.5. Hashirama is more naturally intelligent, to have learned high-level shinobi arts at a very young age, then he has almost 50 years of battle experience, pushing him to a 5 overall. Again, Hashirama was overly optimistic, quarrelled with his brother and enjoyed things like gambling, but he was never actually portrayed as stupid.



> Requiring lots of hand seals for jutsu doesn't necessarily mean that a character has master-class skill in that area. Kakashi and Itachi, two of the only characters who had a 5 in hand seals, had their hand seal speed emphasized in the manga. Shizune, who also has a 5 in hand seals, is very skilled at chakra control. If I had to make an inference, I would say that the score for hand seals is based on chakra control and hand seal weaving speed. In the manga, neither Hashirama's hand seal speed nor his chakra control was particularly emphasized, and a 4.5 in hand seals is a higher score than what Jiraiya had, so I think it's a very reasonable score.
> 
> But I agree with you that, overall, hand seals are just an ambiguous stat.



Chakra control may not even be factored into handseals, considering Tsunade only has a 4. Shizune can't be used as a concrete example. Kakashi and Itachi, yeah, but they are just two examples, and both had the screen time and enough battles to be hyped in something as unimpressionable as handseals. There are plenty of other characters with no previous hype in handseals, who still receive 5s. And, technically, Hashirama's hand-weaving was actually emphasised, when Madara stated that his recovery jutsu trumped Tsunade's, in that he could heal without needing to weave seals at all.


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## Saru (Jul 26, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Admittedly, Shin didn't seem _that_ threatening, but he did manage to react to Sasuke, who moves ridiculously fast, and stab Naruto with a sword. And yet despite that, and possessing many Sharingan in his head, Sakura was able to run up to him and KO. I don't think Tsunade, Itachi or anyone else could have done the same, based on their feats.



Sakura attacked Shin from off-panel, taking him by surprise. She didn't blitz him, outmaneuver him, or anything of the sort.



> It wasn't stated anywhere, though she doesn't need to have surpassed Tsunade in taijutsu in order to still possess a 5, they should be about as skilled as one another at this point in time. In Genjutsu, Sakura and Tsunade were equal already, and Kakashi cites Sakura's natural talent with genjutsu as one of the main reasons that she would go on to surpass the Fifth. 20 years on, I'd like to think that statement had came to light. In speed, Sakura had already reacted to Kaguya's chakra arm and blitzed Shin, neither of which I think Tsunade is capable of.



Sakura never blitzed Shin.

As for taijutsu, you haven't really added anything new to your argument. "She should have a 5 by now" isn't a very strong argument.

Kakashi said that Sakura could surpass Tsunade, not that she would. Kakashi's statement never went anywhere regardless of what Sakura's new score in genjutsu would be, because if it had, then Sakura would use genjutsu. Genjutsu wasn't one of the main reasons that Kakashi cited; it was the _only_ reason he cited.



> We'll have to agree to disagree then. I think it's a perfectly logical argument because Sasuke is one of the main protagonists, and at the end of the series, after leaving the village many times and performing many high-level secret missions over a period of 20 years, it just seems nonsensical to me that his skills wouldn't have _dramatically_ increased. Sasuke is literally God-Level, he isn't like other ninja who need an abundance of hype and statements to support a 5/5, Sasuke gets it by virtue of being a God-Level main protagonist who excels in all areas. On the contrary, with Sasuke and Naruto, we need reasons _not_ to give them 5s, which we have with stats like physical strength or intelligence, but that's about it.



And those high-level secret missions were?

And those high-level secret missions boosted their taijutsu skills to master class because... ?

The argument you're making boils down to "they're Gods, so why not," and I don't think that's a very strong argument.



> We're basing almost all of our assumptions on "If", and you seemed to think Shikamaru's skill increase was plausible too. And yeah, a very marginal difference. Not enough that Shikamaru was totally incapable of seeing through the illusion, while she was, imo.



Deidara said Sasuke's speed was too much for him and almost got blitzed despite having the same speed score. So that sort of thing already has precedent.



> Because .. its 20 years, 'nuff said. 20 years of missions, 20 years of research, 20 years of battling various different opponents.



Sure, a lot of time passed, but are you acknowledging the phenomenon of slower/harder gains? That phenomenon would have a definite and possibly equal impact on Team Seven's development. I think the problem is that you're sticking to your guns and saying that Team Seven grew more, only looking at one factor (time) and failing to acknowledge all others (growth rate, necessity of improvement, etc.).



> You could easily say the same thing about Tsunade. Her superhuman strength is so great that surely she doesn't need to be roof-tier in taijutsu because she one-shots and blows up the ground anyway. But she does have a 5 in taijutsu, and she trains Sakura specifically in taijutsu using her evasive training-style, so I just don't know why she wouldn't at least equal Tsunade in that area after continuing under her tutelage. There's really no reason she shouldn't, I think you're being unnecessarily critical of Sakura here.



You could say the same thing, but not to the same degree. The gap in strength between Tsunade and Sakura is gargantuan. I'm not trying to be unusually critical, by the way; just fair. The reasons I cited for Sakura not having as much skill as Tsunade in taijutsu are that she hasn't shown improvement, she doesn't need improvement, and I'll now add that I don't believe there's any evidence Tsunade continued to train her as you've claimed.



> Which is why Hashirama probably does have a roof-tier taijutsu stat. SM Naruto never actually engaged Madara in a prolonged taijutsu battle iirc, it was just a case of Madara, with Hashirama's Senjutsu powering him, waltzing up to Naruto and blitzing. And I wouldn't say SM Naruto exactly has a roof-tier taijutsu ability either.



When I said "roof-tier taijutsu stat" I misspoke. I don't think anyone without a roof-tier speed stat could keep up with Madara, and I think Sage Mode Naruto (practically blitzed Nagato's Path, kept up with Sandaime Raikage, etc.) has a roof-tier speed stat. Having a 5 in taijutsu doesn't afford someone the ability to deal with someone with much greater speed. Tsunade's 5 in taijutsu is nice and all, but if Madara wants to take shots at her in CQC he will IMO. His speed is simply too extreme--especially when backed by EMS precognition.

In other words, you don't need a 5 in taijutsu to keep up with someone who's fast, nor would expertise in that area be particularly helpful in mitigating a disadvantage in speed (and precognition).



> Itachi is the only character with a 5 in genjutsu who used more than one illusion. Tayuya didn't, Orochimaru didn't, Kurenai didn't, Hiruzen didn't. And neither Tayuya, Orochimaru nor Hiruzen relied heavily on genjutsu, they preferred ninjutsu and taijutsu. Kurenai does use genjutsu often, but then, like Itachi, she's likely even better at genjutsu than any of the others with 5s. 2/5 isn't much of a trend.



As far as we know, Orochimaru and Hiruzen were very capable genjutsu users, but didn't care to show it. Tayuya definitely did rely heavily on genjutsu; it was the only ability of hers that Kabuto bothered to assimilate.



> But, ultimately, more intelligent than either Jiraiya or Naruto. He deserves a 5, whether or not he matches Tsunade, Kabuto, Orochimaru etc. doesn't need to come into it. If it existed, I'd be inclined to give Hashirama a 4.75, but it doesn't, and we may as well bump the God of Shinobi up to a 5 instead of let him hang at a 4.5 where he noticeably outclasses his competition.
> 
> Hashirama was always reverred as powerful, even in his youth. Jiraiya was incompetent, like Naruto was. But in the end he still garners enough experience to get a 4.5. Hashirama is more naturally intelligent, to have learned high-level shinobi arts at a very young age, then he has almost 50 years of battle experience, pushing him to a 5 overall. Again, Hashirama was overly optimistic, quarrelled with his brother and enjoyed things like gambling, but he was never actually portrayed as stupid.



I disagree that Hashirama "noticeably outclasses" Jiraiya in intelligence. Whether or not Hashirama matches the other characters with a 5 is _wholly_ relevant because those characters set the precedent for a 5 in intelligence. The fact that you think we need to "bump Hashirama up" is an admission on your part that he's not in the same class of intelligence as the other characters with 5's, and that's precisely why I didn't award him that score.

This is not exactly a glowing endorsement of Hashirama's intelligence.

[x]

I'd say he's more than just overly optimistic.

As for Hashirama's prodigious childhood, he was simply forced to grow at a faster rate than Naruto and Jiraiya did due to growing up in war times.



> Chakra control may not even be factored into handseals, considering Tsunade only has a 4. Shizune can't be used as a concrete example. Kakashi and Itachi, yeah, but they are just two examples, and both had the screen time and enough battles to be hyped in something as unimpressionable as handseals. There are plenty of other characters with no previous hype in handseals, who still receive 5s. And, technically, Hashirama's hand-weaving was actually emphasised, when Madara stated that his recovery jutsu trumped Tsunade's, in that he could heal without needing to weave seals at all.



Madara's statement was not praising Hashirama's hand seal weaving--not even indirectly. The reason that Hashirama doesn't have to use hand seals when healing isn't because he's so good at them; it's because his body is brimming with life energy. Madara was simply taking shots at Tsunade.

Again, hand seals are an ambiguous stat, so it's hard to argue for or against scores in the category.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 26, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Naruto Uzumaki
> Sasuke Uchiha
> Toneri Otsutsuki
> Sakura Haruno
> ...



Most of these have 5s or 4s+, that's why the databook didn't bother giving them stats. But I'll give this a go:

Naruto Uzumaki

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5 
Handseals: 5
_Total: 40
_
FYI his new chakra form gives him awareness of how jutsu works. Plus his post-databook 3 accomplishments showed a lot of improvements.

Sasuke Uchiha

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 40_

Rinnegan plus post-databook 3 accomplishments. 

Toneri Otsutsuki

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 
Handseals: 5
_Total: 40_


Sakura Haruno

Ninjutsu: 4.5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 4
Strength: 5
Speed: 3.5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 3
_Total: 30_

Hashirama Senju

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 40_

Tobirama Senju

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 40_

Minato Namikaze

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 40_

Itachi Uchiha

_Same as databook 3_

Nagato Uzumaki

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 5
_Total: 40_

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 28, 2016)

Saru said:


> Sakura attacked Shin from off-panel, taking him by surprise. She didn't blitz him, outmaneuver him, or anything of the sort.



She caught him by surprise yeah, but she also ran straight at him. She didn't come from behind or from the side, and the guy still has Sharingan precog even if he wasn't expecting her to appear. It was a legitimate feat.



> As for taijutsu, you haven't really added anything new to your argument. "She should have a 5 by now" isn't a very strong argument.



Honestly, let's just agree to disagree. I think it's more logical to assume that she mastered the field she was arduously training herself in after 20 years. For some reason you demand evidence for such a thing and sceptically believe that she stopped tirelessly training herself in taijutsu. We'll never agree.



> Kakashi said that Sakura could surpass Tsunade, not that she would. Kakashi's statement never went anywhere regardless of what Sakura's new score in genjutsu would be, because if it had, then Sakura would use genjutsu. Genjutsu wasn't one of the main reasons that Kakashi cited; it was the _only_ reason he cited



But Sakura's main talent in genjutsu was always in her innate ability to see through it and break free, not in actually using it. That appears to be the case with Orochimaru and Hiruzen too. Kakashi (and thus Kishimoto) wouldn't have brought up such a thing if he didn't intend on using it later on.

Kakashi: and because she was originally a Genjutsu type, she may even surpass the Fifth...
Kakashi, 20 years later: nvm you haven't improved and I was wrong. am disappoint





> And those high-level secret missions were?
> 
> And those high-level secret missions boosted their taijutsu skills to master class because... ?



The canon missions we know about include stopping Karyu, his followers and fighting Momoshiki and Kinshiki, all powerful foes. He was gone for a long ass time though, so he certainly fought other opponents. In the missions we actually do know about, he was using taijutsu against his opponents. And as someone who was always naturally talented in taijutsu, I would imagine that using taijutsu against a variety of opponents over a long period of time would improve it.



> The argument you're making boils down to "they're Gods, so why not," and I don't think that's a very strong argument.



I think it's a perfectly acceptable argument.



> Deidara said Sasuke's speed was too much for him and almost got blitzed despite having the same speed score. So that sort of thing already has precedent.



Sasuke was using Shunshin, a ninjutsu, which may not even be included in the DB speed stat.



> Sure, a lot of time passed, but are you acknowledging the phenomenon of slower/harder gains? That phenomenon would have a definite and possibly equal impact on Team Seven's development. I think the problem is that you're sticking to your guns and saying that Team Seven grew more, only looking at one factor (time) and failing to acknowledge all others (growth rate, necessity of improvement, etc.).



Growth rate: remains very high up until early-mid 20s, slows somewhat in their late 20s and 30s, but not enough to the point where they're incapable of dramatically improving in areas that they were obviously using on a regular basis. And certainly not to the extent that you seem to think it does. They're in their 30s, not their 50s.

Necessity of improvement: Naruto is trying to become strong enough to be Hokage. Sasuke realises opponents potentially even more fearsome than Kaguya could attack earth, and he's trying to fervently gain favour with the Great Nations by disposing of its enemies. Sakura, a medical ninja, who must never be the first to die on the battlefield, needs to ensure she continues living up to that title.



> You could say the same thing, but not to the same degree. The gap in strength between Tsunade and Sakura is gargantuan. I'm not trying to be unusually critical, by the way; just fair. The reasons I cited for Sakura not having as much skill as Tsunade in taijutsu are that she hasn't shown improvement, she doesn't need improvement, and I'll now add that I don't believe there's any evidence Tsunade continued to train her as you've claimed.



I'm sure you aren't trying to be overly critical, though that's how its coming off. There's no reason to assume that Tsunade would have discontinued her training with Sakura. After all, even after she goes into exile from Konoha and develops a blood phobia, she still manages to teach Shizune how to be a superb medic. You're assuming things that are likely to be true to be false based on the premise that there's no on-panel evidence. I say screw evidence, because Sakura's teacher isn't about to abandon her student before she's even hit her physical prime.



> When I said "roof-tier taijutsu stat" I misspoke. I don't think anyone without a roof-tier speed stat could keep up with Madara, and I think Sage Mode Naruto (practically blitzed Nagato's Path, kept up with Sandaime Raikage, etc.) has a roof-tier speed stat. Having a 5 in taijutsu doesn't afford someone the ability to deal with someone with much greater speed. Tsunade's 5 in taijutsu is nice and all, but if Madara wants to take shots at her in CQC he will IMO. His speed is simply too extreme--especially when backed by EMS precognition.



Hiruzen has a 3 in speed, and he fends off Orochimaru, who has a 4.5, because of his superior taijutsu. Tsunade keeps up with Kabuto despite the clear disparity in their speed, and Hidan keeps up with Asuma despite the tier gap in their speed, and his taijutsu is only on par with Asuma's. There are other examples too, but the point is that a high enough taijutsu stat mitigates speed gaps. Madara could take shots at Tsunade because the speed gap is _too_ big, but then Hashirama is probably faster than Tsunade.



> In other words, you don't need a 5 in taijutsu to keep up with someone who's fast, nor would expertise in that area be particularly helpful in mitigating a disadvantage in speed (and precognition).



Precog helps with allowing Madara to evade/react to Hashirama's attacks in CQC, and true enough, the majority of damage Hashirama inflicted to Madara was with ninjutsu, as opposed to taijutsu. But he had enough raw skill to defend himself without being blitzed.



> As far as we know, Orochimaru and Hiruzen were very capable genjutsu users, but didn't care to show it. Tayuya definitely did rely heavily on genjutsu; it was the only ability of hers that Kabuto bothered to assimilate.



We only know that because of their genjutsu stats. The point is that they have no feats showing off genjutsu worthy of a 5/5, but yet they get the 5s regardless. But yet you insist Hashirama must have Itachi-level genjutsu feats to have the same. Tayuya's strongest technique was a genjutsu, that's why Kabuto assimilated it. On-panel, she uses taijutsu as her first port of call. After that it's the Doki and her chakra eating demons. The genjutsu was a last resort, if anything, and even then it was only a B Rank.



> I disagree that Hashirama "noticeably outclasses" Jiraiya in intelligence. Whether or not Hashirama matches the other characters with a 5 is _wholly_ relevant because those characters set the precedent for a 5 in intelligence. The fact that you think we need to "bump Hashirama up" is an admission on your part that he's not in the same class of intelligence as the other characters with 5's, and that's precisely why I didn't award him that score.



But I also classify him as superior to Jiraiya, hence why I would not hang him in the same basket. Jiraiya sets the precedent for a 4.5, and if Hashirama is better than that, then why should he be placed in that area? You've already admitted that there can be slight disparities in skill with characters possessing the same stat, and that couldn't be more true when it comes to roof-tiers, where we have the likes of Kurenai and Itachi possessing the same genjutsu stat, despite the latter considering her genjutsu inferior. Hashirama can have a 5, be superior to other 4.5s, and still not have to be as intelligent as the other 5s in his category.



> This is not exactly a glowing endorsement of Hashirama's intelligence.
> 
> [x]
> 
> I'd say he's more than just overly optimistic.



That was because he's soft, not because he's unintelligent. He understands why Tobirama proposes that the other villages buy the bijuu, he's just more concerned with creating peace than with tactically taking assets from potential allies. You could call Hiruzen unintelligent for being against the Uchiha Massacre, even though the Uchiha would have killed many innocents. But he was just too soft to demand such serious orders, it made him no less intelligent though.



> As for Hashirama's prodigious childhood, he was simply forced to grow at a faster rate than Naruto and Jiraiya did due to growing up in war times.



Again with the scepticism lol. Yes, he did have to participate in more battles, but at the same time, he possessed no elite teachers, no academy, no vast resources of books and scrolls. He did it all on his own, and that was something Jiraiya, unlike Tsunade or Orochimaru, was incapable of.



> Madara's statement was not praising Hashirama's hand seal weaving--not even indirectly. The reason that Hashirama doesn't have to use hand seals when healing isn't because he's so good at them; it's because his body is brimming with life energy. Madara was simply taking shots at Tsunade.
> 
> Again, hand seals are an ambiguous stat, so it's hard to argue for or against scores in the category.



That's sort of why I said technically. We don't know for sure what is and what isn't included in the DB, but it seems like the type of thing Kishmito might factor in. At any rate, regardless of what is or isn't factored into the DB, Hashirama deserves a 5 in seals based on his skill in other areas, given the existing, proven trend that exists with other characters.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2016)

*Disclaimer: *These are estimations of where I believe them to be at the end of Chapter 700, the bulk of their assessment is dependent on where they were in the 3rd Databook ranking and where I saw them ending up after the several arcs that ensued after that. More to the point, this is an assessment on their 'base' versions, no additional power-ups included.
*
Naruto Uzumaki*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5 (+1)
Genjutsu: 3.5 (+1.5)
Intelligence: 4.5 (+1.5)
Strength: 4.5 (+1)
Speed: 4.5 (+1)
Stamina: 5
Handseals: 3.5 (+2)
*Total: 35*

(Base) Naruto's best feat throughout the war was using a Chou Oodama Rasengan and the reason why he's got a (+2) jump in seals is because he was able to point out the seals required for resurrecting and using Rinne no Tensei as opposed to the others. While both his father and Sasuke were duped along with everyone else.

*Sasuke Uchiha*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5 (+1)
Genjutsu: 5 (+1)
Intelligence: 5 (+1.5)
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5 (+0.5)
Stamina: 4 (+0.5)
Handseals: 5 (+1)
*Total: 37
*
Sasuke is easily the most skilled and versatile shinobi on Team 7, he's essentially a combination of both Itachi/Kakashi as he's surpassed both of them in categories of genjutsu and ninjutsu, respectively. He can easily use multiple elements and has great battle-tested experience, as noted by Kakashi in their duel on the bridge. He did lack experience in taijutsu throughout the earlier parts of Part 2, this was shown and then exemplified when he fought against Itachi and then later you could extrapolate more from the fights he had with Killer Bee and when Killer Bee fought against Itachi. There was a clear difference in experience and skill between Itachi and Sasuke. But a gap that's been closed since then for sure.

*Sakura Haruno*
Ninjutsu: 5 (+2)
Taijutsu: 5 (+2)
Genjutsu: 3.5
Intelligence: 4.5 (+0.5)
Strength: 5 (+2)
Speed: 4 (+1)
Stamina: 3 (+0.5)
Handseals: 5 (+1)
*Total: 35
*
Sakura was difficult to gauge given that she much like her mentor hasn't shown a lick of true offensive ninjutsu but by virtue of their medical expertise and medical ninjutsu, I gave her a 5 in the category. She has more or less proven stats in other categories, he rating in genjutsu hasn't changed and probably won't change either. I don't think she'll get any buffs there.

*Itachi Uchiha*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 2.5
Handseals: 5
*Total: 35.5
*
Itachi for me didn't really change much, he lived up to each of his categories, his edo performance didn't impact anything we didn't already know about him. He's an expert at genjutsu, has great support ninjutsu and can do more than hold his own in taijutsu.


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