# Itachi Vs Minato



## Six (May 30, 2015)

Setting: Final Valley

Knowledge: Reputation. Itachi knows he is the yellow flash of the leaf. 
Minato knows Itachi like how well Shikaku and Ao do.

No Restrictions

Starting distance: 


Who wins?

*Quietly waits for Hussain*


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

I like Minato. 

He wins.


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## Six (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I like Minato.
> 
> He wins.



How insightful 

*Spoiler*: __


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

I get that alot. 

I won an award ya' know.


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## Sadgoob (May 30, 2015)

Minato only has the one S-rank trick, and Itachi knows about it. Itachi has many S-rank tricks, and is more intelligent and versatile than Minato in battle. So I'd favor genjutsu before Hiraishin.​


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

I'll use Minato argument #27.

Itachi's heavy hitting jutsu are quite tiring and could prove an opening for somebody as quick as Minato to swoop in and tap him on the shoulder (after dodging Amaterasu,  for example). 

Strat, you use Itachi argument #62.

Then we can keep going back and forth. 

And prove why this can go either way.


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## Sadgoob (May 30, 2015)

This must be what a dead marriage is like.


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## LostSelf (May 30, 2015)

Hussain and another one told me that Minato argument #139 was that he's fast enough to blitz Hashirama from a distance much bigger than this one.

Or was #143? Can't remember. Come here, *Hussain*! 

The thing is that Itachi has no chance, according to those statements.


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## Bonly (May 30, 2015)

Either Itachi manages to catch Minato in a genjutsu and then lands a fatal blow(assuming the genjutsu isn't said fatal blow) or Minato eventually tags Itachi or gets some tags near him and show off that yellow flash


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

@LostSelf

Argument 143 was Minato sealing the distance away with Hakke Fuin so that he could start with his Rasengan on Itachi's sack. 

I typically don't use that one unless the op is being cheeky.


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## Bonly (May 30, 2015)

@LostSelf

Argument 143 was Minato sealing the distance away with Hakke Fuin so that he could start with his Rasengan on Itachi's sack.

I typically don't use that one unless the op is being cheeky


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## StickaStick (May 30, 2015)

Minato throws a kunai towards Itachi at the speed of light, resulting in a draw.


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## Six (May 30, 2015)

Don't forget minato can also use tailed beast mode


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## Elite Uchiha (May 30, 2015)

Minato defeats Itachi with mid (low) difficulty, at most. If I wasn't biased towards the Uchiha, I'd say Minato wins with low (mid) difficulty. Minato literally BAMFlashes at that distance with relative ease. 

You might want to add another Itachi (or two) to make this fair.


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## RBL (May 30, 2015)

Madara to Gokages:


Madara vs Minato


Hashirama addmiting inferiority to the king



Hashirama>Madara

Madara > Minato

Itachi > Hashirama

Therefore Itachi Wins.


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## KeyofMiracles (May 30, 2015)

Dusk Crow Genjutsu + Kunai Slash to the neck.


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## LostSelf (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @LostSelf
> 
> Argument 143 was Minato sealing the distance away with Hakke Fuin so that he could start with his Rasengan on Itachi's sack.
> 
> I typically don't use that one unless the op is being cheeky.




Oh, i see. What's the one of Minato beggining the fight with a Kunai 1 meters away from his opponent and using Hiraishin directly with said Kunai inside his victim's neck already?

Also, Minato looked at Obito's eyes while he was fighting him and believing he was Madara Uchiha. Itachi argument #1,765,458,796 says that, if you look at his eyes, even if he's not aware, you're caught in genjutsu.



Bonly said:


> @LostSelf
> 
> Argument 143 was Minato sealing the distance away with Hakke Fuin so that he could start with his Rasengan on Itachi's sack.
> 
> I typically don't use that one unless the op is being cheeky



Oh, i see. What's the one of Minato beggining the fight with a Kunai 1 meters away from his opponent and using Hiraishin directly with said Kunai inside his victim's neck already?

Also, Minato looked at Obito's eyes while he was fighting him and believing he was Madara Uchiha. Itachi argument #1,765,458,796 says that, if you look at his eyes, even if he's not aware, you're caught in genjutsu.


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Don't forget minato can also use tailed beast mode



Lol this is BM Minato?

He wraps a tail around Itachi's Susano'o, sends it to the Hokage mountain, and smashes Itachi like a used soda can before the displaced one goes away and Itachi has a chance to make another one.


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## UchihaX28 (May 30, 2015)

Minato warps Itachi's Susano'o and then proceeds to get beaten up by Itachi's bushin feint and superior Taijutsu.

 Itachi low-diffs. Minato screws himself here.


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## Six (May 30, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato defeats Itachi with mid (low) difficulty, at most. If I wasn't biased towards the Uchiha, I'd say Minato wins with low (mid) difficulty. Minato literally BAMFlashes at that distance with relative ease.
> 
> You might want to add another Itachi (or two) to make this fair.



Your name is ironic since you seem to really underrate Uchiha's. He'll probably lose a an arm and a foot  in the process. Dude looked like a straight retard fighting 80% of the time. Kishi ruined him
  

*Spoiler*: __


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## LostSelf (May 30, 2015)

MS can control Kyuubi and supress it. Also, Zetsu said that Itachi is invincible with Totsuka and Yata. And Zetsu is someone that knows what Kaguya, who is leagues above BM Minato, is capable of.


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## Six (May 30, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> MS can control Kyuubi and supress it. Also, *Zetsu said that Itachi is invincible* with Totsuka and Yata. And Zetsu is someone that knows what Kaguya, who is leagues above BM Minato, is capable of.



:
*Spoiler*: __ 



 Well if Zetsu(Kishi) said it, it must be true 





Hmmm, still no sign of Hussain


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## UchihaX28 (May 30, 2015)

This is Itachi vs. Juubidara who Itachi blitzes effortlessly.



 This is Minato getting his arm chopped off by 1 Eyed Juubidara who didn't even absorb the God Tree yet. Keep in mind that SM Minato suffered got his arm chopped off and kick back before being able to use Hiraishin. As Itachi is faster than a much stronger Juubidara, Minato has no chance here. 

 How Minato beats Itachi is beyond me. Itachi negs here.


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## Rocky (May 30, 2015)

Itachi argument #1,034

Itachi reveals that the sex between Minato's parents was actually his genjutsu and Minato was never conceived. Minato fades out of existence, no diff.


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## Six (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi argument #1,034
> 
> Itachi reveals that the sex between Minato's parents was actually his genjutsu and Minato was never conceived. Minato fades out of existence, no diff.



That's actually Aizen's bankai


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## Ryuzaki (May 30, 2015)

Itachi Argument ????

I'll go ahead and use that Itachi's Hokage level thinking is already greater than Minato because Itachi had that thinking at 4 and Minato got much older, so Itachi has better strategy and therefore Itachi wins, low to mid difficulty.


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## Bloo (May 30, 2015)

I think the manga made it explicitly clear what would happen:


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## Trojan (May 30, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Hussain and another one told me that Minato argument #139 was that he's fast enough to blitz Hashirama from a distance much bigger than this one.
> 
> Or was #143? Can't remember. Come here, *Hussain*!
> 
> The thing is that Itachi has no chance, according to those statements.



Don't feel like writing. 
but yeah, Itachi is going to get his fodderstompped like his other uchiha fellows.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I think the manga made it explicitly clear what would happen:



So shameless. At least put the entire fight.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 30, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Your name is ironic since you seem to really underrate Uchiha's. He'll probably lose a an arm and a foot  in the process. Dude looked like a straight retard fighting 80% of the time. Kishi ruined him
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



I never underrate Uchihas. If anything, I _overrate _them. I'm a realist though, so I have to call it how I see it. Itachi, by his own admission, is weaker than Jiraiya. Minato is far stronger than Jiraiya and Itachi.


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## Six (May 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Don't feel like writing.
> but yeah, Itachi is going to get his fodderstompped like his other uchiha fellows.





Hussain said:


> So shameless. At least put the entire fight.




*Spoiler*: __


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## qOcOp (May 30, 2015)

itachi has low chakra, but then again i dont think the 4th has high chakra either. both of them had super chakra control. dunno if the 4th could compete with the MS but then again which itachi is this? is he almost blind itachi or prime itachi? not sure how well the 4th handles super genjutsu. 4th has speed doe, itachi is also not too shabby on speed either. not as fast but enough. i think itachi wins if its prime, but if its itachi who needs lasik surgery he loses


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## Trojan (May 30, 2015)

qOcOp said:


> itachi has low chakra, but *then again i dont think the 4th has high chakra either*.



you know Minato is SM user, right?


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## JessePinkman (May 30, 2015)

Isn't Itachi's Susanoo op as hell? Correct me if I am wrong, but I was sure it was able to seal and absorb any attack.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 30, 2015)

Nothing's change. Minato wear him out due to strategic usage of ftg. If itachi tries to get to agressive he gets telestabbed in the chest.


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## Six (May 30, 2015)

qOcOp said:


> itachi has low chakra, but then again i dont think the 4th has high chakra either. both of them had super chakra control. dunno if the 4th could compete with the MS but then again which itachi is this? is he almost blind itachi or prime itachi? not sure how well the 4th handles super genjutsu. 4th has speed doe, itachi is also not too shabby on speed either. not as fast but enough. i think itachi wins if its prime, but if its itachi who needs lasik surgery he loses



Itachi most likely had not reached his prime by death. We can assume this is sick Itachi since we've never seen him healthy sans reanimation. He has perfect eyesight too.

Edit: I doubt either of them reached their primes since they died young


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## Bloo (May 30, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I never underrate Uchihas. If anything, I _overrate _them. I'm a realist though, so I have to call it how I see it. *Itachi, by his own admission, is weaker than Jiraiya*. Minato is far stronger than Jiraiya and Itachi.




By Itachi's own admission, he killed the Uchiha Clan to test his power. Sorry, but the admission logic is completely flawed with a character who lied throughout his entire life.

I'm fine with thinking that Itachi would lose to Minato. But at least come up with a good argument/reason for that thinking.

Also, A > B > C logic works in DBZ, not Naruto.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2015)

Unlike his uchiha statement (which was reteconned, rather than him lying), there was nothing came after that suggested otherwise. They were peers to each other until the end. As such, both died in the same Arc, both have 35.5 in the Databook, and both (Kinda) passed down their strongest thing to Narudo and Sasuke after their death.


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## Bloo (May 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Unlike his uchiha statement (*which was reteconned, rather than him lying*), there was nothing came after that suggested otherwise. They were peers to each other until the end. As such, both died in the same Arc, both has 35.5 in the Databook, and both (Kinda) passed down their strongest thing to Narudo and Sasuke after their death.


First of all, there's little to no evidence to support the idea of it being a retcon. But, retcon or not, it's the plot. He said that, so that point is moot and he still _*lied*_ because he said that and the plot saw that to be a lie. The explanation of it being a retcon to say it's not a lie is desperate and illogical.

That Databook stat implies there equal, not unequal. Try again, Hussain.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 31, 2015)

Bloo said:


> By Itachi's own admission, he killed the Uchiha Clan to test his power. Sorry, but the admission logic is completely flawed with a character who lied throughout his entire life.



If you want to believe that every word Itachi has stated in the manga is a lie, then by all means do. If I use that logic for one statement then I will apply it to all statements made by Itachi to be completely unbiased. 



> I'm fine with thinking that Itachi would lose to Minato. But at least come up with a good argument/reason for that thinking.



Explained my reasoning on page 1. Due diligence is key in the real world 



> Also, A > B > C logic works in DBZ, not Naruto.



I somewhat agree. But there are very very few instances where A>B>C logic does not apply in Naruto. Just think about it a little before posting next time buddy


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Depends on incarnations. Minato would own Hebi-Sasuke fight Itachi, as Itachi could never afford to give someone like Minato the openings sickness and blindness gave Hebi-Sasuke as he'll simply be blitz'd. A healthier Itachi vs Minato would be a good fight, but ultimately I think both would just keep countering each others techniques and Minato would win via attrition as even healthy Itachi is quite inferior to Minato in that regard. Edo-Itachi could go even further though and could probably force Minato to pull out Shiki Fuujin to end things in a draw, but Edo-Minato stomps the fuck out of Edo-Itachi, so yeah....

I think Minato is better than Itachi simply due to plot though. The plot demanded Itachi be handicapped as otherwise he'd be too powerful of a force on the side of good, for the villains to succeed. Minato having died before the story began didn't need to have his strength and growth handicapped. Than finally when Itachi had his handicapps lifted as an Edo and he was about as strong as Minato, Minato was subject to nonsense Juubi-fight power scaling and became much stronger than Itachi.



Bloo said:


> First of all, there's little to no evidence to support the idea of it being a retcon. But, retcon or not, it's the plot. He said that, so that point is moot and he still _*lied*_ because he said that and the plot saw that to be a lie. The explanation of it being a retcon to say it's not a lie is desperate and illogical.
> 
> That Databook stat implies there equal, not unequal. Try again, Hussain.


The main difference Bloo, is that he had no other choice but to lie about wishing to test his power against the clan, as that was the only way to explain his actions that night while keeping in line with his facade of being a villain. In the case of Jiraiya, he had multiple other valid excuses he could have given for why fighting him was not a necessary risk for him and Kisame to take, w/o needing to lie about his strength in comparison to Jiraiya's. Fuck literally a chapter before than he told Kisame that they shouldn't fight Gai because it would draw unwanted attention, so why didn't he just say that about Jiraiya, instead of launching into this whole quite frankly nonsensical lie. And I say nonsensical, because if he was going to lie about Jiraiya's strength it doesn't make sense to say he could take Jiraiya on and potentially even fight equally with him, rather he should have said Jiraiya would undoubtably beat him, if he wanted him and Kisame to stay away.


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## Dr. White (May 31, 2015)

Turrin;53701203Depends on incarnations. Minato would own Hebi-Sasuke fight Itachi said:
			
		

> Idk how you could try to compare such.. a fight where Itachi purposely was going to lose and not be at his best potential....even sick....


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## Trojan (May 31, 2015)

Bloo said:


> First of all, there's little to no evidence to support the idea of it being a retcon. But, retcon or not, it's the plot. He said that, so that point is moot and he still _*lied*_ because he said that and the plot saw that to be a lie. The explanation of it being a retcon to say it's not a lie is desperate and illogical.
> 
> That Databook stat implies there equal, not unequal. Try again, Hussain.



-Pretty sure Kishi mentioned that the idea about Sasuke's story was to revenge his bro who did something terrible, with no plans whatsoever on what that terrible thing may have been. In addition, since itachi's characters is entirely based on reteconns, that would explain all the nonsense he was saying, or doing. For example, why we haven't seen him giving Konoha any info at all, or trying to kidnap Naruto ....etc. Those things were their simply because Kishi did not plan things ahead, and he even admits as such. 

- You can take things that he lied about based on some other things that appeared latter on. However, it was never mentioned not even hinted at that he lied of his statement being inferior to Jiraiya. 

- Ok, so? 
I just told you Jiraiya is the one who's presented to be his peer.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If you want to believe that every word Itachi has stated in the manga is a lie, then by all means do. If I use that logic for one statement then I will apply it to all statements made by Itachi to be completely unbiased.



They are all lies except when it comes to his Tsuki (for wank) for example. Then his words is a God-like facts.


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## ueharakk (May 31, 2015)

Minato decisively wins against the strongest incarnation of living itach as all of itachi's heavy hitting jutsu are easily avoided with both his reaction, body speed and hirashin.  Amaterasu is never hitting if Ei dodged it, tsukuyomi is never hitting considering what was required to put Ei into it, and susanoo is definitely not landing a hit any time soon.  

Minato has the ability to fill the immediate area with kunai at a whim can use shadow clones who can also use FTG, itachi's only defense against flashblitz is to keep susanoo constantly activated throughout the match which eventually kills him.

Even if this was edo itachi, minato still wins by summoning ma and pa and using frog song.  

Itachi is completely outclassed here.  His lesser genjutsu have no chance of catching minato, crow clones get blitzed or taken out by minato's own clones, and if he wants to deflect kunais with his own, minato just picks up his old kunais and throws them again, something itachi can't do since his will be scattered among minato's kunai.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2015)

> keep susanoo constantly activated throughout the match which eventually kills him.



He can teleport that tho. 

as for the Genjutsu, you did not mention he is a sensor as well.


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## Rocky (May 31, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Idk how you could try to compare such.. a fight where Itachi purposely was going to lose and not be at his best potential....even sick....



Sick Itachi wasn't faking his sickness, which was what caused such openings.


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## Six (May 31, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Minato decisively wins against the strongest incarnation of living itach as all of itachi's heavy hitting jutsu are easily avoided with both his reaction, body speed and hirashin.  Amaterasu is never hitting if Ei dodged it, tsukuyomi is never hitting considering what was required to put Ei into it, and susanoo is definitely not landing a hit any time soon.
> 
> Minato has the ability to fill the immediate area with kunai at a whim can use shadow clones who can also use FTG, itachi's only defense against flashblitz is to keep susanoo constantly activated throughout the match which eventually kills him.
> 
> ...



Who said A can't be put under Tsukuyomi when he was put under by a lesser genjutsu. And how does this apply to Minato?

I'm trying to be objective and stay out and see what others say, but I really have to call bullshit on your post. The least you could do is have some sort of proof for these outlandish claims.


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## ueharakk (May 31, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Who said A can't be put under Tsukuyomi when he was put under by a lesser genjutsu. And how does this apply to Minato?


Tsukuyomi being more powerful is irrelevant, both require eye contact and Madara needed 5 susanoos + hours of battle + Ei being distracted by tsunade in order to get Ei into it.  Itachi has no way of applying that kind of pressure against Minato, Minato doesn't have a third party to be worried about, and Minato is incomparably harder to put under genjutsu since he's the one who blitzes Ei.



Law Trafalgar said:


> I'm trying to be objective and stay out and see what others say, but I really have to call bullshit on your post. The least you could do is have some sort of proof for these outlandish claims.


I'm pretty sure you only perceived it as an outlandish claim because you didn't understand what I meant when I said that Ei wouldn't be put into tsukuyomi.

You probably interpreted that as "if Ei looked directly into Itachi's eyes, tsukuyomi wouldn't work because Ei" which no one that I'm aware of is claiming.

That and you're probably a little trigger happy because you don't agree with the overall conclusion of my post.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Idk how you could try to compare such.. a fight where Itachi purposely was going to lose and not be at his best potential....even sick....


I'm not speaking towards his only giving Sasuke what he could handle, i'm speaking towards his own inability to avoid attacks he normally would due to blindness and illness.


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## Six (May 31, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Tsukuyomi being more powerful is irrelevant, both require eye contact and Madara needed 5 susanoos + hours of battle + Ei being distracted by tsunade in order to get Ei into it.  Itachi has no way of applying that kind of pressure against Minato, Minato doesn't have a third party to be worried about, and Minato is incomparably harder to put under genjutsu since he's the one who blitzes Ei.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure you only perceived it as an outlandish claim because you didn't understand what I meant when I said that Ei wouldn't be put into tsukuyomi.
> ...


First I'd like you to show me proof of Madara trying and failing to put A under any sort of genutsu. If the author wanted to make a point that A was near impossible to place under genjutsu, then he would have showed Madara constantly trying to use it on him.
I guess he needed 5 susanoo's and hours of battle to get the other page under genjutsu as well right?
Heres a little tip for you, just because someone didn't use something during a fight, doesn't mean it's ineffective unless they outright say it. I guess you think Minato is immune to genjutsu since Obito didn't try it on him. 
Or that since Sasuke didn't try it on A that A is immune huh?

And since when does it take pressure to look a person in the eye? You forget Itachi only needs a glance and you're toast. Going from Minato's past where he charges directly at opponents or stares them down, this does not bode well.

No troll harder, in a series where ninja stare each other down before a fight theres absolutely no way Itachi doesn't put you in genjutsu.

Madara didn't use genjutsu on Tsunade, I guess she's immune or impossible to place under it right?


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## Trojan (May 31, 2015)

It's basically means putting Kage level under a genjutsu and defeating them is not as easy as itachi's fans would like to believe. 
It's not if itachi is the only genjutsu user that ever existed in the uchiha clan. lol

Obito, and most likely Izuna as well both can use Genjutsu, and we have seen their share of luck against FTG users.


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## Kyu (May 31, 2015)

Amaterasu & Susano'o aren't going to do a goddamn thing against any version of Minato wielding Hiraishin - at least not offensively. 


Tsukuyomi is Itachi's best bet. Anything else not used to defend or as a distraction is a complete waste of chakra.


Kyuubi Minato >>> Healthy Itachi = Base Minato

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2015)

Genjutsu GG vs Bamflash GG

Genjutsu GG wins


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 31, 2015)

You can't put Minato in a Genjutsu. He's a Hokage, highly knowledgable of the uchiha, ruled over them as Hokage. This was shown in his fight against Obito, he knew exactly how to fight him, showed that he had knowledge on Madara uchiha as well. No Hokage has ever been caught in sharingan genjutsu in battle.

Hashirama faced Madara many times, we've never seen him get caught in genjutsu
Tobirama defeated Izuna, again no genjutsu
Minato defeated Obito, he wasn't worried about genjutsu
Tsuande engaged Madara multiple times and not once was caught in genjutsu 
Kakashi was caught by itachi the first time because he thought that he was the only one capable of resisting with his sharingan, but that proved wrong. However on their second fight, that didn't work, Kakashi learned.
In Naruto and Sasuke's final battle, didn Naruto once worry about being caught in genjutsu? No

I'm afraid being put under genjutsu isn't an easy thing, no matter how much you wish it, not for Hokage tiers. Especially when you have the arsenal and speed to perfectly counter it. People need to drop the Ei arguments and understand that he was only caught because he was distracted by tsuande, and even then, it required Madara to pick him up with Susanoo and hold him up right to his face. Reason Madara did this is because there was no other way to catch ei, he was too fast and tricky. Same EI told Sasuke that sharingan wouldn't work on him.

There is no way Itachi is incapacitating minato to put him in genjutsu. Itachi can't produce 25 clones that can all use Susanoo either.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2015)

it's pointless to write too much, it's not like anyone would change his mind for anything. 
you could write who you think would win, and that's about it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 31, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> You can't put Minato in a Genjutsu. He's a Hokage, highly knowledgable of the uchiha, ruled over them as Hokage. This was shown in his fight against Obito, he knew exactly how to fight him, showed that he had knowledge on Madara uchiha as well. No Hokage has ever been caught in sharingan genjutsu in battle.
> 
> Hashirama faced Madara many times, we've never seen him get caught in genjutsu
> Tobirama defeated Izuna, again no genjutsu
> ...




So you'r basically saying that Minato can't be genjutsu'd because he is a hokage and no one attempted to put him under a genjutsu on panel.
Basically some vague shit that accounts to nothing and absence of evidence is your argument.

How about this..  Itachi was able to successfully cast genjutsu on every opponent he has fought so far, including dojutsu users, jins and a sage who was practically immune to all visual genjutsu. 



> Itachi can't produce 25 clones that can all use Susanoo either.


What the fuck does this have anything to do with this thread ?


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## ueharakk (May 31, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> First I'd like you to show me proof of Madara trying and failing to put A under any sort of genutsu. If the author wanted to make a point that A was near impossible to place under genjutsu, then he would have showed Madara constantly trying to use it on him.
> I guess he needed 5 susanoo's and hours of battle to get the other page under genjutsu as well right?


The author went out of his way to show Ei being put into genjutsu only after fighting for hours, against 5 v3 susanoos, and having been distracted by tsunade.  The author even went out of his way to imply that Ei being caught in a genjutsu, even by madara, was something that was extremely unlikely and thus embarrasing for Ei since it was due to him being distracted by tsunade.

Any sharingan user who has more than 2 braincells always has genjutsu in mind as an option they can use to take out their opponent, and thus is always looking for opportunities to do so. 

Now if you want me to show you 'proof' as in panels of madara actively thinking to himself "I'ma try put Ei into genjutsu" then you have to be willing to give me equal proof as in panels of madara actively thinking to himself "im NOT trying to put Ei into genjutsu" because the burden of proof works both ways.  Do you have that proof?  If not, then I have no obligation to meet a certain standard of proof that you yourself can't meet.



Law Trafalgar said:


> Heres a little tip for you, just because someone didn't use something during a fight, doesn't mean it's ineffective unless they outright say it. I guess you think Minato is immune to genjutsu since Obito didn't try it on him.
> Or that since Sasuke didn't try it on A that A is immune huh?


Unless Obito has less than 2 braincells, he jumps at ANY opportunity to beat Minato with it.  The same thing is true for Sasuke vs Ei.  Sharingan genjutsu and not looking into the opponent's eyes is extremely basic knowledge for both the user and the opponent, if the sharingan user doesn't get the opponent into genjutsu, it's not that he never tried, it's that he was never presented with the opportunity to do so.  



Law Trafalgar said:


> And since when does it take pressure to look a person in the eye? You forget Itachi only needs a glance and you're toast. Going from Minato's past where he charges directly at opponents or stares them down, this does not bode well.


It takes pressure to force soemone to look you directly in the eye long enough to use the sharingan jutsu on them when they are actively trying to avoid eye contact. That's the reason why we literally see Madara needing to force Ei into it, the reason why itachi needs to force Kakashi's clone into it during their second encounter, and the reason he had to get right up to sasuke's face and trick him into making direct eyecontact.  

If Minato charges directly at the opponent or 'seems' to be staring them down, he's doing both without making direct eyecontact.  



Law Trafalgar said:


> No troll harder, in a series where ninja stare each other down before a fight theres absolutely no way Itachi doesn't put you in genjutsu.
> 
> Madara didn't use genjutsu on Tsunade, I guess she's immune or impossible to place under it right?


Since when do ninja look directly into each other's eyes while staring each other own?  Naruto actively avoids looking directly at the sharingan user's eyes, we know this, yet without that knowledge it would seem naruto is looking *right into itachi's eyes as he talks to him* like any other ninja would when pre-fight talking.  Kishi doesn't have to go out of his way to draw panels of people not looking at their opponent's eyes in order for the readers to know that direct eye contact isn't being made unless the readers have an agenda which they won't drop unless kishi constantly displays shinobi avoiding direct eyecontact throughout the fight.  

Madara didn't use genjutsu on Tsunade because he never had an opportunity to put her into it when using the arsenal (5 susanoo clones) she was up against, if genjutsu was a viable option to beat her, he'd have used it that's something that's simply assumed by now for every sharingan user due to how many fights they've been shown in, how many times it's been explained to avoid eye contact, and the fact that madara's character and every other sharingan user would have to be a complete moron in order for them not to win if given the opportunity to do so.  

So no, if they weren't put into genjutsu it's because the sharingan user wasn't able to put them into genjutsu, not because the sharingan user had a surefire easy win in his hands but decided not to take it.


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## Six (May 31, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> The author went out of his way to show Ei being put into genjutsu only after fighting for hours, against 5 v3 susanoos, and having been distracted by tsunade.  The author even went out of his way to imply that Ei being caught in a genjutsu, even by madara, was something that was extremely unlikely and thus embarrasing for Ei since it was due to him being distracted by tsunade.
> 
> Any sharingan user who has more than 2 braincells always has genjutsu in mind as an option they can use to take out their opponent, and thus is always looking for opportunities to do so.
> 
> ...



If we go by your logic saying "the author went out of his way" then I guess we can also say Itachi *IS* invincible. I mean the author went out of his way to state that with his spirit weapons that he's invincible....You see how flawed that logic is? The author goes out of his way to show everything in the series, there is no absolute worse argument than the one you just posted. the author continuously goes out of his way to prove that Itachi is th best genjutsu user in the series and your logic sucks.

Yes, any uchiha always has genjutsu as an option. But what you fail to account for is their fighting styles for fucks sake. Obito's fighting style has always revolved around his use of kamui from the moment we were introduced to him.Sasuke has always been through ninjutsu and use of weapons. Madera of course is ninjutsu. Itachi is the only on panel Uchiha who's primary fighting style has revolved around mostly genjutsu. 
Hell, I guess since Obito didn't use fire style or earth style, he was incapable of using it against Minato right? No, everyone has their preferred style, Naruto uses his shadow clones, minato ft. and Itachi genjutsu.

I am not even going to entertain that extremely fallacious argument you just put up there. That's something I'd expect from a highschooler(unless you are in high school). You clearly stated that Madara needed all those conditions to work in order for A to be placed under a genjutsu. I ask you for substantial proof that showed him actively trying and failing to land him under a genjutsu and all you did was rebut with an appeal to ignorance. If you don't know what that is, I suggest you retake eng101   
or go on wikipedia or any other web help tool. They will explain to you that you just rebutted with one of the most childish and fallacious arguments there is.  Don't go n life thinking that avoiding and not answering the question is a get out of jail free card with that 6 year old logic. Go ahead and look up appeal to ignorance, I'm sure any other poster would tell you the same exact thing.

Again, I state at the time, and for most of his life, Obito's fighting style revolved around mainly his use of Kamui. When before his powerup did you see him fighting any other style? Kakashi didn't use genjutsu against Kakuzu and Hidan, so I guess they're both immune to it or somewhere off panel he kept on trying and failing huh? Again, I repeat take into account peoples fighting styles. Genjutsu is not always Sasuke's go to move at the beginning of a fight. Sasuke's use of it is to throw an opponent off guard such as Danzo. Hey I guess when Sauce fought B, before he placed him in that gents which got him lariated he kept on trying and failing to place him under gents, even when they were staring each other down right?
No, kit makes sure to go out of his way everytime to show whenever someone is being placed under a genjutsu. Orr, B, Kakashi and if a person escapes it, he shows it like with Karachi's clone or bee. Suddenly he ignores Madara and A and expects the reader to assume that he tried and failed? Do you see the flaw in your reasoning? Hell, I guess since the other 4 page were actually immune to madder's genjutsu too, since they were under the same conditions as A. But according to you, we should assume that Madara was constantly trying and failing to place them under genjutsu.

Yeah, it's so hard to even get a glimpse of a person's eyes, I have no idea why Kakashi was freaking out at Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes? Makes no sense since Itachi would have to lock on directly to each eye like a cannon, and calibrate and activate the just, instead of the simple glance we've seen countless times throughout the anime and manga.

Naruto avoids looking at his eyes and still gets placed under genjutsu, jeez I wonder how that worked. Don't see whats stopping the same thing from happening to Minato. You only strengthened my argument. He doesn't need eye contact or a finger, but has some other secret way to place them under gents.

I won't waste my time arguing with you because I have the feeling I'm arguing with an 8th grader because your reading comprehension and argument skills fall under that level. Don't bother expecting a response from me and come back in 5 years.


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## UchihaX28 (May 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So shameless. At least put the entire fight.



 What you posted was Itachi's genjutsu, so Minato already lost from the beginning.


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## Raiken (May 31, 2015)

How does Minato breach Susano'o V3-V4.
His most powerful Jutsu by feats is like a Rasengan somewhere in-between the standard one, and the smaller Oodama Rasengan's we've seen. That might break through Itachi's Susano'o's Skeletal Form, V1-V2, but beyond that, I doubt it.
So his only hope would be to outlast him, but keep forcing him to use it. Because if he just retreats, Itachi just stops using it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 31, 2015)

We know that Itachi is screwed if Fukasaku and Shima are summoned, right? Summoning those toads result in an effortless win for Minato. Without them, he'd probably need to put in some effort.


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## ueharakk (May 31, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> If we go by your logic saying "the author went out of his way" then I guess we can also say Itachi *IS* invincible. I mean the author went out of his way to state that with his spirit weapons that he's invincible....You see how flawed that logic is? The author goes out of his way to show everything in the series, there is no absolute worse argument than the one you just posted. the author continuously goes out of his way to prove that Itachi is th best genjutsu user in the series and your logic sucks.


Itachi being invicible has absolutely nothing to do with my logic, since 'invicible' is a no limits hyperbole statement something Ei was not given.  'invicible', 'unbeatable' all of those no limits statements aren't to be taken literally, they are to be evaluated within the context.

Within the context of itachi's fights, such as against hebi sasuke, sure he's invincible with those weapons as sasuke has nothing that can beat it, outside of that context it's obviously false.  Within the context of going up against 5 susanoo clones, it's embarrasing for Ei to get put into genjutsu.  Outside of that context, that's not necessarily true because there are people who can put up a greater pressure than 5 susanoo clones.



Law Trafalgar said:


> Yes, any uchiha always has genjutsu as an option. But what you fail to account for is their fighting styles for fucks sake. Obito's fighting style has always revolved around his use of kamui from the moment we were introduced to him.Sasuke has always been through ninjutsu and use of weapons. Madera of course is ninjutsu. Itachi is the only on panel Uchiha who's primary fighting style has revolved around mostly genjutsu.
> 
> Hell, I guess since Obito didn't use fire style or earth style, he was incapable of using it against Minato right? No, everyone has their preferred style, Naruto uses his shadow clones, minato ft. and Itachi genjutsu.


That's laughable logic.  Obito didn't use fire or earth style against minato because they wouldn't have made a difference or wouldn't have been better than what he was using against Minato as minato would have just avoided it and using the jutsu would have put obito at risk of being hit since he has to be tangible in order to attack.  Sure Itachi has had more opportunities to put his opponents into genjutsu, has more powerful genjutsu than  obito and sasuke, but a lot of that has to do with the opponents he's gone up against and how drastically lacking they were in knowledge about the sharingan or MS.  Orochimaru?  Looked right into his eyes.  Deidara? Looked right into his eyes.  Kakashi? Looked right into his eyes, which is why itachi had to force him to make eye contact the second time they fought.  Sasuke?  Needed to be forced into it.  Bee?  He's a perfect jinchuriki, he doesn't care about avoiding eye contact.  Kabuto?  Had to be forced into the genjutsu.  It's the same case with almost any character who has knowledge on the sharingan and actually cares about being put into genjutsu. 

Itachi probably tries to trick his opponents into it more than those three, however all that goes out the window when we're comparing ability to force someone into eye contact and an instance where Madara was trying to do so.



Law Trafalgar said:


> I am not even going to entertain that extremely fallacious argument you just put up there. That's something I'd expect from a highschooler(unless you are in high school). You clearly stated that Madara needed all those conditions to work in order for A to be placed under a genjutsu. I ask you for substantial proof that showed him actively trying and failing to land him under a genjutsu and all you did was rebut with an appeal to ignorance. If you don't know what that is, I suggest you retake eng101


Well that's 2 concession on your part since I've given you an argument.  The first because you could do is call mine 'fallacious' and throw personal insults at me without giving any reasoning for rejecting my assertion which means you've ignored my argument.
The second because you've ignored my explanation about why you claiming I need 'substantial proof' is completely irrelevant unless you're able to meet that same burden of proof as you're trying to impose on my own arguments.



Law Trafalgar said:


> or go on wikipedia or any other web help tool. They will explain to you that you just rebutted with one of the most childish and fallacious arguments there is.  Don't go n life thinking that avoiding and not answering the question is a get out of jail free card with that 6 year old logic. Go ahead and look up appeal to ignorance, I'm sure any other poster would tell you the same exact thing.


Once again, just personal insults and assertions without any attempt at providing reasons why the actual argument you're addressing is fallacious, which is a concession on your part.



Law Trafalgar said:


> Again, I state at the time, and for most of his life, Obito's fighting style revolved around mainly his use of Kamui. When before his powerup did you see him fighting any other style? Kakashi didn't use genjutsu against Kakuzu and Hidan, so I guess they're both immune to it or somewhere off panel he kept on trying and failing huh? Again, I repeat take into account peoples fighting styles. Genjutsu is not always Sasuke's go to move at the beginning of a fight. Sasuke's use of it is to throw an opponent off guard such as Danzo. Hey I guess when Sauce fought B, before he placed him in that gents which got him lariated he kept on trying and failing to place him under gents, even when they were staring each other down right?


IF Obito never got anyone with genjutsu, it's because it was completely unnecessary since they were fodder to him or they simply avoided eye contact, that's the rule that applies to ANY sharingan user as it's explained countless times that the most basic of rules is to avoid eye contact with them.  

Sasuke heavily underestimated bee, he thought he could take bee out like a fodder, and when we actually saw him use the genjutsu on bee, it had required bee to be running straight at sasuke and for bee to be within almost kissing distance.  That opportunity never arose considering distance, how sasuke's entire focus throughout a lot of the fight was on not getting murdered by bee's swordwork, bee wears sunglasses so it's harder for Sasuke to tell where he's looking and a bunch of other factors like bee himself just being fast, and not running right at him.



Law Trafalgar said:


> No, kit makes sure to go out of his way everytime to show whenever someone is being placed under a genjutsu. Orr, B, Kakashi and if a person escapes it, he shows it like with Karachi's clone or bee. Suddenly he ignores Madara and A and expects the reader to assume that he tried and failed? Do you see the flaw in your reasoning? Hell, I guess since the other 4 page were actually immune to madder's genjutsu too, since they were under the same conditions as A. But according to you, we should assume that Madara was constantly trying and failing to place them under genjutsu.


When did I ever dispute kishi showing someone getting put into genjutsu?  I've stated that kishi doesn't go out of his way to show people actively avoiding eye contact.  The readers know that Madara was looking for opportunities to put Ei into genjutsu, the readers know that Ei was only put into the genjutsu because he was forced into it due to being distracted by tsunade, why in the world would the readers have any reason to not believe that Madara didn't have any opportunities to put Ei into genjutsu beforehand?  

Madara was trying to beat the other four as well, which means that had he been given the opportunity to beat them via genjutsu at any time during the fight, he would have done so, yet he either wasn't given that opportunity or the other members saved each other before he could capitalize on the genjutsu.



Law Trafalgar said:


> Yeah, it's so hard to even get a glimpse of a person's eyes, I have no idea why Kakashi was freaking out at Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes? Makes no sense since Itachi would have to lock on directly to each eye like a cannon, and calibrate and activate the just, instead of the simple glance we've seen countless times throughout the anime and manga.


Asuma and Kurenai in part 1 have nothing to do with the kage-level ninja who fight Itachi, Sasuke, Obito and Madara in part 2.  Not only that, but asuma and kurenai had almost no knowledge about the sharingan while the people who do fight the sharingan users in part 2 are some of the most well informed shinobi in the NV which is why asuma and kurenai listen to Gai as he tells them to open their eyes and focus on the feet.



Law Trafalgar said:


> Naruto avoids looking at his eyes and still gets placed under genjutsu, jeez I wonder how that worked. Don't see whats stopping the same thing from happening to Minato. You only strengthened my argument. He doesn't need eye contact or a finger, but has some other secret way to place them under gents.


Unless you want to argue that Minato is as easy to put in genjutsu as a mere shadow clone of pre-SM Naruto, and that Itachi has shisui's eye then naruto being placed into it has nothing to do with your argument.  Since you haven't addressed the actual point that i've made: that the author shows Naruto staring at itachi pre and mid battle yet has shown naruto is actively avoiding even looking at itachi's head, then you've conceded that anyone who's as informed as naruto or wants to avoid eye contact with the sharingan user is doing the same by default unless shown otherwise.



Law Trafalgar said:


> I won't waste my time arguing with you because I have the feeling I'm arguing with an 8th grader because your reading comprehension and argument skills fall under that level. Don't bother expecting a response from me and come back in 5 years.


So within a single post, you go from calling me a 'highschooler' to '8th grader'?  Seems like you're just trying to throw insults at me because you have no logical way of addressing my arguments, which is why you literally don't address them.  You're just mad that your vision of itachi or whatever character you hold dear was easily shattered by arguments that are far more plausible than their alternatives.


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## meadie (May 31, 2015)

Minato wins............


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## Phonas (May 31, 2015)

Minato has no answers to the Dusk Crow genjutsu and Yata Mirror.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> How does Minato breach Susano'o V3-V4.
> His most powerful Jutsu by feats is like a Rasengan somewhere in-between the standard one, and the smaller Oodama Rasengan's we've seen. That might break through Itachi's Susano'o's Skeletal Form, V1-V2, but beyond that, I doubt it.
> So his only hope would be to outlast him, but keep forcing him to use it. Because if he just retreats, Itachi just stops using it.



Or he simply can teleport it away? 
Sasuke with Susanoo
_ambushing_
Sasuke without Susanoo
_ambushing_

Amazing how people always ignore this.


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 1, 2015)

If it was Minato before the 4th War, his feats were awesome. He didn't lose one fight, owned both Killer Bee and Kira A, owned Obito, well u know... My friends and I (who read naruto), and even those that I met on some forums always though about him with respect. Kishimoto always passed the image that he was indeed a genius that only appears sometimes, because he was "perfect". Badass, calm, genius intelect, fast, good at every ninja art.

However, the war arc fucked him nicely. He had the Kyuubi but Kishimoto didn't use him nicely... He wanted to show Tobirama and because of that he made Minato a emotional character, thinking about what he could've done, having regrets, blablabla, lost 1 arm because of that (he wasn't calm), and... Tobirama was just showing that he was one level ahead.

Itachi is the exact opposite. Every fight we saw from him he was holding back, even against Kabuto he was holding himself back, since he couldn't kill him. He's feats (in the end of the manga) surpassed Minato's feats (in the end of the manga).

Now talking about the fight... Neither Madara, Obito or Izuna are Genjutsu users. They use it with the Sharingan, but that's all, they are not TOP users. Itachi is. He can casts Genjutsu just by moving a finger..

Also, Orochimaru was a candidate to Hokage. We all know that happened to him, right? That was the only time we saw Itachi using Genjutsu for the purpose it should be used: Distraction. 

Minato, as every Hokage, can change his chakra flow and dissipate it. The thing is: Can he do it before losing a hand, or getting sealed?

It's complicated for someone like Minato getting caught, but it's not impossible. 

In the end, it's a 50x50 change. Can Minato blitz Itachi before getting caught in a Genjutsu?
Can Itachi put Minato on a Genjutsu?

Knowledge:
Minato knows Itachi like how well Shikaku and Ao do (= Great Genjutsu user)
Itachi knows he is the yellow flash of the leaf. (= God speed)

Minato isn't going to fall for a Genjutsu. Itachi isn't going to fall for speed too.

In the end, we have a fight of chakra. Itachi needs Susano'o, if he wants to protect himself from Minato's speed. Minato just needs to jump and hold the fight. Both have genius intelect, they can't catch themselves out of guard. 

Minato wins by having more chakra reserves and that's all.

EDIT:

Actually, Itachi still has Izanagi.

I guess that he might use it as a last strike when he has almost no chakra left. Fakes his death (or he does the same thing has madara, programming his eye to use izanagi like 10 seconds later), and it might work (i just gave a example). 

Minato has sensing abilities but... It might work .


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

Ok, let's go with the corrections. 



> However, the war arc fucked him nicely. He had the Kyuubi but Kishimoto didn't use him nicely... He wanted to show Tobirama and because of that he made Minato a emotional character, thinking about what he could've done, having regrets, blablabla, lost 1 arm because of that (he wasn't calm), and... Tobirama was just showing that he was one level ahead.



First of all, you have to take on consideration that was JJ Obito. Although Minato's mind was fuzzy that he was against his student, but in comparison, even in such a fuzzy state of mind he outdone all the other Hokages. Like Tobirama got half of his body destroyed, and had it not been for PnJ, he should have been killed via the Gedu-dama, and the same with Hiruzen who got half of his upper body destroyed. The same with Hashirama and Madara who got blown up from the crossfire alone. So, Minato losing 1 arm is still better than all of them. 

And that does not take much of him being hit by someone of that level. Your beloved itachi got destroyed by a far weaker opponent. 



> Itachi is the exact opposite. Every fight we saw from him he was holding back, even against Kabuto he was holding himself back, since he couldn't kill him. He's feats (in the end of the manga) surpassed Minato's feats (in the end of the manga).



 nonsense. Itachi was far weaker than Minato, that there is no comparison whatsoever to begin with.
Or you saying those hits

are less than losing an arm? And by who? Kabuto lol, are you seriously comparing Kabuto's level to Obito's? 



> Now talking about the fight... Neither Madara, Obito or Izuna are Genjutsu users. They use it with the Sharingan, but that's all, they are not TOP users. Itachi is. He can casts Genjutsu just by moving a finger..



Clearly you don't read the manga. They are all genjutsu users. Since when were you under the impression that itachi is the only genjutsu user that has ever existed in the uchiha clan? Also, they are (at least Madara and Obito)
superior Genjutsu users than itachi. You're just being delusional to think itachi is comparable to them in that regard. lol



> Also, Orochimaru was a candidate to Hokage. We all know that happened to him, right? That was the only time we saw Itachi using Genjutsu for the porpose it should be used: Distraction.


So? Oro is weaker than Minato. 



> Minato, as every Hokage, can change his chakra flow and dissipate it. The thing is: Can he do it before losing a hand, or getting sealed?



Yes, he is the Yellow Flash. Your question should be, can itachi moves an inch before he gets beheaded? 
Because it's laughable to think itachi is going to be faster than Minato. 



> In the end, it's a 50x50 change. Can Minato blitz Itachi before getting caught in a Genjutsu?
> Can Itachi put Minato on a Genjutsu?



Yes, itachi will get speedblitzed. If far faster characters than him got, he stands no chance. 



> Minato isn't going to fall for a Genjutsu. Itachi isn't going to fall for speed too.



How isn't itachi going to fall for speed? lol 
A who is much faster did. Obito with teleportation jutsu did, Izuna did, and so on and so for.
Heck, even Kaguya and Madara fell short against high speed from Gai and Narudo.



> In the end, we have a fight of chakra. Itachi needs Susano'o, if he wants to protect himself from Minato's speed. Minato just needs to jump and hold the fight. Both have genius intelect, they can't catch themselves out of guar



Except the Susanoo is not helping him here when Minato can simply teleport it away, or speed blitze him right away.



> Actually, Itachi still has Izanagi.
> 
> I guess that he might use it as a last strike when he has almost no chakra left. Fakes his death (or he does the same thing has madara, programming his eye to use izanagi like 10 seconds later), and it might work (i just gave a example).
> 
> Minato has sensing abilities but... It might work .



Nice Fan-fiction. Where has itachi ever showed that he can use Izanagi exactly?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 1, 2015)

Its always hilarious seeing people try and downplay Minato because he lost his arm against Juubito, the same person that literally was stomping the whole alliance + Edo Hokages single handedly. 

Lets not forget that Minato saved the whole alliance, twice. Not to mention he even reacted to 8 gate Gai, showing his unparalleled reflexes. On the other hand, my favorite character Itachi Uchiha was getting babyshaked by the weak Kabuto. Itachi even had EMS Sasuke Uchiha to help him!

Minato low diffs.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Minato only has the one S-rank trick, and Itachi knows about it. Itachi has many S-rank tricks, and is more intelligent and versatile than Minato in battle. So I'd favor genjutsu before Hiraishin.​



fair enough but you do know itachi has to actively want to use it right. meeting sharingan eyes isnt enough 

mifune looked straight at sasuke eyes. No genjutus 
Minato did the same to obito 
jiriaya did to itachi 

Now considering A speed has already been shown too difficult for 5 madara clones to catch in genjutsu without distractions. I am thinking itachi being able to catch minato in genjutus is very very unlikely


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> fair enough but you do know itachi has to actively want to use it right. meeting sharingan eyes isnt enough
> 
> mifune looked straight at sasuke eyes. No genjutus
> Minato did the same to obito
> ...



Just because they made eye contact and genjutsu wasn't used in those situations doesn't mean it could not have been used or they were immune.
Jiraiya flat out admitted he was a dud when it came to genjutsu, so how could you explain Itachi not using it on him? It's because he didn't want a fight.

Just because something isn't used on someone doesn't mean they're immune to it.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Just because they made eye contact and genjutsu wasn't used in those situations doesn't mean it could not have been used or they were immune.
> Jiraiya flat out admitted he was a dud when it came to genjutsu, so how could you explain Itachi not using it on him? It's because he didn't want a fight.
> 
> Just because something isn't used on someone doesn't mean they're immune to it.



i never claimed they were immune though. 
read what i wrote before replying 

yes jiriaya is a dud in genjutsu. my point was genjutsu must be actively used and itachi did not attempt genjutsu. 

i agree itachi did not want a fight. 

how about sasuke then? gettign rid of mifune would have been a good move, wouldnt you say?

again never claimed any immunity, try read my posts please

Speed as stated by kishi through A, has been said to put sharingan genjutsu in difficulty. Now A speed is not only slower than minato's but far more predictable 

All i am saying is minato, who can jump from kunai to kunai will be avoiding eye contact, without even trying to. 

itachi eyes cant keep up. regardless of how keen his eye sight is, he cannot see minato if minato gets behind him. which he can do once kunai are about the place


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 1, 2015)

I guess Minato could teleport Itachi out of Susanoo.

Minato can use Hiraishin to teleport Itachi out of Susanoo. If the kunai, with Minato's chakra, is near or on Susanoo, then the Susanoo chakra (Itachi's chakra) is connected with Itachi's. Itachi is indirectly connected to Minato's chakra... Minato can teleport Itachi out of Susanoo... or within it.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 1, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> \No Hokage has ever been caught in sharingan genjutsu in battle.



Orochimaru is one Hokage-level character and got caught in Genjutsu by a teenage version of Itachi. Hashirama and Tobirama actually fought Uchiha their entire lives, though nothing indicates that even Madara is nearly as crafty/skilled as Itachi when it comes to illusions. Sure, he managed to use Infinite Tsukuyomi, but he never made that area part of his fighting style from what we've seen. Sage Kabuto - who is far stronger than Minato and has better methods of avoiding Genjutsu - still got caught in one eventually. So it's definitely not impossible for Hokage to get caught in Genjutsu; it just never happened on panel due to the scarcity of them and just... the way this manga went on.

And yeah, Minato has knowledge of Uchiha like any high-ranking individual would, but it doesn't automatically mean he's got experience in fighting them. Chances are, 14-year-old Obito was the only Uchiha he ever fought. As far as we know, the village and that clan didn't have major issues until the coup, which actually occurred after Minato's death. Itachi and Shisui seemed to be the known prodigies among their clan, so I'm not sure if there's anyone notable Yondaime could have possibly fought.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Its always hilarious seeing people try and downplay Minato because he lost his arm against Juubito, the same person that literally was stomping the whole alliance + Edo Hokages single handedly.
> 
> Lets not forget that Minato saved the whole alliance, twice. Not to mention he even reacted to 8 gate Gai, showing his unparalleled reflexes. On the other hand, my favorite character Itachi Uchiha was getting babyshaked by the weak Kabuto. Itachi even had EMS Sasuke Uchiha to help him!
> 
> Minato low diffs.





another ranged attack


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 1, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Orochimaru is one Hokage-level character and got caught in Genjutsu by a teenage version of Itachi. Hashirama and Tobirama actually fought Uchiha their entire lives, though nothing indicates that even Madara is nearly as crafty/skilled as Itachi when it comes to illusions. Sure, he managed to use Infinite Tsukuyomi, but he never made that area part of his fighting style from what we've seen. Sage Kabuto - who is far stronger than Minato and has better methods of avoiding Genjutsu - still got caught in one eventually. So it's definitely not impossible for Hokage to get caught in Genjutsu; it just never happened on panel due to the scarcity of them and just... the way this manga went on.
> 
> And yeah, Minato has knowledge of Uchiha like any high-ranking individual would, but it doesn't automatically mean he's got experience in fighting them. Chances are, 14-year-old Obito was the only Uchiha he ever fought. As far as we know, the village and that clan didn't have major issues until the coup, which actually occurred after Minato's death. Itachi and Shisui seemed to be the known prodigies among their clan, so I'm not sure if there's anyone notable Yondaime could have possibly fought.



Orochimaru was a fool obsessed with the uchiha clans eyes. Orochimaru is weaker than Minato, so irrelevant, and he's not a Hokage so don't bring him up, I only mentioned the actual true Hokage who aren't sharingan obsessed and as careless as him. This is the same orochimaru who attacked the leaf and thought he could win lol, guy couldn't even properly handle his old worn out sensei (even with edo tensei on his side), and lost both his arms. Don't compare that clown to the likes of Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama etc.

Madara was the greatest of all uchiha. His opponents were just too good and experienced, of course the God of SHINOBI and fastest ninja of their time wouldn't get caught in genjutsu. Also Madara taught Obito bout genjutsu and how he could manipulate the time and space within the illusion, so yes they were highly skilled in genjutsu. Obito controlled a perfect Jinchuuriki which shouldn't be possible, He was controlling the nine tails by age 14. And nice try, Itachi used Izanami, that's the only getsuju that will work on Kabuto. And we all know Izanami doesn't work on someone like Minato, plus it sacrifices Itachis eye. If he does that then he's definitely dead.

Pls don't talk about Obitos age like it matters. He was personally trained by Madara uchiha himself and possesses Hashirama cells and a Mangekyou with space time ninjutsu that surpasses minatos own.14 year old Obito is superior to any version of Itachi, so don't even play that age card with me. Obito>>>Itachi and Shisui. So your point about Minato not facing many uchiha is obsolete.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 1, 2015)

Using a Juubi Jinchuriki to compare Minato and Itachi is a very silly thing to do since both would slaughtered by a one, even if they worked together.

Maybe if you used an opponent that was above one, but below another that could work. But when you start using characters like Juubito who're far above Minato and Itachi... it doesn't work. Even if you buy into the jokes the Itachi fandom have about Itachi being above Hashirama.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Using a Juubi Jinchuriki to compare Minato and Itachi is a very silly thing to do since both would slaughtered by a one, even if they worked together.
> 
> Maybe if you used an opponent that was above one, but below another that could work. But when you start using characters like Juubito who're far above Minato and Itachi... it doesn't work. Even if you buy into the jokes the Itachi fandom have about Itachi being above Hashirama.





 But Itachi blitzed 3 Eyed Juubidara.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Now considering A speed has already been shown too difficult for 5 madara clones to catch in genjutsu



Was Mei to fast for 5 Madaras to catch in genjutsu too? No? 

That's because Madara wasn't actively trying, because he's not a genjutsu type.

It's a supplement to him, not his main skill-set, like it is for Itachi.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Was Mei to fast for 5 Madaras to catch in genjutsu too? No?
> 
> That's because Madara wasn't actively trying, because he's not a genjutsu type.
> 
> It's a supplement to him, not his main skill-set, like it is for Itachi.



Or maybe genjutsu is overrated and most Kage tiers have enough knowledge and skill of how to combat Uchiha. First thing ohnoki told the alliance when Madara attacked , is not to look directly into his eyes. Indicating Madara is an expert in genjutsu, and that ohnoki knows how to combat genjutsu..


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Or maybe genjutsu is overrated and most Kage tiers have enough knowledge and skill of how to combat Uchiha. First thing ohnoki told the alliance when Madara attacked , is not to look directly into his eyes. Indicating Madara is an expert in genjutsu, and that ohnoki knows how to combat genjutsu..



Chiyo said that's common knowledge from the war about generic Uchiha.

It doesn't make you an expert in fighting genjutsu.

And it doesn't make the Uchiha a master of genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Was Mei to fast for 5 Madaras to catch in genjutsu too? No?
> 
> That's because Madara wasn't actively trying, because he's not a genjutsu type.
> 
> It's a supplement to him, not his main skill-set, like it is for Itachi.




He did not need genjutsu to kill Mei at that level 

however he obviously felt the need to against A due to A defense. notice after he took him out with genjutsu he tried to cut him down with the sword

despite being distracted, madara didnt attempt an initial sword swing. he grabbed him, genjutsu him
then swung his sword 

so to me that shows madara already knew A defense was more than his offense at that level. And genjutsu needed to be used to weaken his defense. 

A is the only one he would have been trying to genjutsu 

also kishi already had A mention he was too fast to be caught in genjutsu. note despite it being madara 
A repeats himself, how can i be caught by a mere sharingan genjutsu 

btw A is slower than minato, has no clones and isnt a sensor


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Or maybe genjutsu is overrated and most Kage tiers have enough knowledge and skill of how to combat Uchiha. First thing ohnoki told the alliance when Madara attacked , is not to look directly into his eyes. Indicating Madara is an expert in genjutsu, and that ohnoki knows how to combat genjutsu..



Or maybe because A is physically durable and strong enough to brawl with Susano'o clones and Mei isn't ? Thats why Madara opted to take A down with genjutsu to bypass his durability ? 

Its not that hard to grasp these things lol.


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2015)

Nobody save Gai have been said to fight genjutsu efficiently. Sage Kabuto, who could rely on sensing, had to cover his eyes. Yet, Gaara and Mei fights it from 5 opponents strong enough to corner V2 Ei, and dodges the genjutsu like nothing?

Let's face it. That argument holds no ground and if Madara wanted to put them in genjutsu, he would've bitchslapped them and put them on it. He was just toying differently with each one.

Also:



There's Minato looking at "Uchiha Madara"'s eye.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nobody save Gai have been said to fight genjutsu efficiently. Sage Kabuto, who could rely on sensing, had to cover his eyes. Yet, Gaara and Mei fights it from 5 opponents strong enough to corner V2 Ei, and dodges the genjutsu like nothing?
> 
> Let's face it. That argument holds no ground and if Madara wanted to put them in genjutsu, he would've bitchslapped them and put them on it. He was just toying differently with each one.
> 
> ...



yes because the guy who he knows as uchiha madara isn't famous for his genjutsu 

he is simply famous for being overly powerful. 

itachi is known for his genjutsu ability. 

No reason to know someone is famous even amongst uchiha for being a genjutsu nightmare and then deciding lemme fight him the way he fought obito

he is far more likely to spread kunai so he can get behind itachi sharingan


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## Legendary Itachi (Jun 2, 2015)

- Control the Kyubi with Genjutsu in front of his damn eyes
- Not famous for it

Poor Minato.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> - Control the Kyubi with Genjutsu
> - Not famous for it
> 
> Poor Minato.



when was madara famous for controlling kyuubi with genjutsu. 

he did it no doubt but that's not what he is famous for 

clearly if genjutsu hits minato even hebi sasuke level. minato drops...am not one to debate that

good luck hitting him with it though when the guy could have any number of kunai behind itachi LOS


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes because the guy who he knows as uchiha madara isn't famous for his genjutsu
> 
> he is simply famous for being overly powerful.
> 
> ...



No, they didn't. Why do you think the Uchihas hype came? From Itachi? Of course not. It surely came from Madara Uchiha and the others.

I wonder what proofs does people have to assume Madara tried and failed to put them in genjutsu. Seriously, i don't know why people keep bringing that up.

I am not saying who wins between Itachi and Minato. Actually, i'd rather keep out of it. The last time i debated against Minato, i was met with him blitzing Hashirama from 50 fucking meters.


*Spoiler*: __ 



No offense, Hussain. You know i love you .




And the last time i debated against Itachi he was busting an extremely durable core by himself with no argument at all to assume he can.

So the best i do is stay away from that kind of popular characters.

The point is that none of the kages are able to avoid genjutsu had Madara tried to put them in. There's no proof at all to assume such. There's not even a "tease" to say he might've when we have everything against it.

Kabuto had to cover his eyes. People needing to fight Uchihas 2 vs 1 (And they were 1 vs 5), Gai developing a method to fight Kakashi, who wasn't a master of genjutsu, etc.

And, of course, the best one. The fact that Madara was so far above them that he didn't even need genjutsu and could've stomped them and force them to be put in, if he wanted.

Either way, "The kages avoiding 5 genjutsu from 5 Susano'os powerful enough to force V2 Ei to block" argument is a desperate argument against an Uchiha with no floor to stand on. With all respect to everybody that supports this theory.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nobody save Gai have been said to fight genjutsu efficiently. Sage Kabuto, who could rely on sensing, had to cover his eyes. Yet, Gaara and Mei fights it from 5 opponents strong enough to corner V2 Ei, and dodges the genjutsu like nothing?
> 
> Let's face it. That argument holds no ground and if Madara wanted to put them in genjutsu, he would've bitchslapped them and put them on it. He was just toying differently with each one.
> 
> ...



Because he does not think he is going down nor does he have a boner for Genjutsu. He simply knows that this shit is not working on him. 



> No offense, Hussain. You know i love you .



No worries as long as you know he solos (unless it's Juubi's host level then they land a hit or 2).


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Because he does not think he is going down nor does he have a boner for Genjutsu. He simply knows that this shit is not working on him.



Then that's a terrible mistake.



> No worries as long as you know he solos (unless it's Juubi's host level then they land a hit or 2).



I know that. Especially the latter. Because Gai lands like 50 or 60, you know. And i know Minato is in second place to that, not counting Super Saiyan free cheatmodes. .


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

- Not really, unless you can show me if he fell for it. 
- Not really, Gai landed 6, and even that was thanks to Minato who weakened Madara severely unlike some other overrated, yet useless Hokage. 

If only Kishi kept his hands, oh well, he had to be nerfed.


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - Not really, unless you can show me if he fell for it.
> - Not really, Gai landed 6, and even that was thanks to Minato who weakened Madara severely unlike some other overrated, yet useless Hokage.
> 
> If only Kishi kept his hands, oh well, he had to be nerfed.



He didn't fell because it wasn't used.


*Spoiler*: __ 



PNJ




Gai landed more, because the fight continued off panel. And probably even got hit by Juudara without losing an arm .


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

Just like how Minato did not teleport Kurama's TBB to his ass because "PnJ", or how he did not teleport Kushina directly despite being already marked because "PnJ". If anyone was hit by massive ass PnJ to hold him back, that someone would be Minato. 

- Yeah, thank you Minato for taking Madara's offensive and defensive GD with you. He also probably did not use Limbo or the other things because of the PnJ. 

Regardless, Itachi is one or 2 tier below Minato. Comparing the 2 is ridiculous.


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2015)

Kurama was inside the village, he couldn't have been so selfish. And he had to save Naruto first. Also, Gai could've dodged the black spheres pretty easy, he already outran them in like the second gate .

He should thank Kakashi, who took out the black shield. But Minato is still in second place, as Madara didn't need to use both, while against Gai, Madara was running with fear. And how do you know he didn't use Limbo? .

Itachi was called invincible by the man who knew how strong Kaguya was. Only base Jiraiya is above him.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Kurama was inside the village, he couldn't have been so selfish. And he had to save Naruto first. Also, Gai could've dodged the black spheres pretty easy, he already outran them in like the second gate .
> 
> He should thank Kakashi, who took out the black shield. But Minato is still in second place, as Madara didn't need to use both, while against Gai, Madara was running with fear. And how do you know he didn't use Limbo? .
> 
> Itachi was called invincible by the man who knew how strong Kaguya was. Only base Jiraiya is above him.



-What does him being inside the village has to do with anything? Minato marked obito as his bitch after the Rassengan. When Minato went back to the village Kurama was using his TBB, but instead of teleporting the TBB to Obito's face, he took both with him. We know as a fact that Minato can teleport to X place, while teleporting the other to Y place as he did with Tobirama and Hiruzen, but lolPnJ. 

- And yet he needed Minato's help, and plan to open a whole in the other GD, so Gai can land his last hit. 

- Yeah, it's not like if it was Minato's plan, or that he is the one who teleported them or anything. 

- Because he would have defeated Gai, but then PnJ strikes. 

- That was more or less a retecon really. Zetsu did not even know what Susanoo was back then when he supposedly saw Madara's. 

anyway, how did this thing get to Minato and Gai anyway.  

Itachi is a mid Kage level at best without the wank power tho.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> No, they didn't. Why do you think the Uchihas hype came? From Itachi? Of course not. It surely came from Madara Uchiha and the others.
> 
> I wonder what proofs does people have to assume Madara tried and failed to put them in genjutsu. Seriously, i don't know why people keep bringing that up.
> 
> ...



btw kishi in his manga mentioned A speed made it difficult for sharingan genjutus to be cast on him 

A again mentions it, saying how could he be caught by a mere sharingan genjutsu 

when he was hit by madara's

minato is faster, so if A speed is a counter to genjutus as stated by kishi. minato speed laughs it off 

u need to see ur enemy to cast genjutsu. minato can basically fight itachi ensuring itachi lags behind

lets not forget this is the guy who jumped mid kamui wrap..thats faster than anything itachi can pull off


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> -What does him being inside the village has to do with anything? Minato marked obito as his bitch after the Rassengan. When Minato went back to the village Kurama was using his TBB, but instead of teleporting the TBB to Obito's face, he took both with him. We know as a fact that Minato can teleport to X place, while teleporting the other to Y place as he did with Tobirama and Hiruzen, but lolPnJ.
> 
> - And yet he needed Minato's help, and plan to open a whole in the other GD, so Gai can land his last hit.
> 
> ...



But without wank Minato is just some blonde guy who resembles Naruto a little


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

but Narudo is fucking awesome.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> but Narudo is fucking awesome.



Yeah.. thats why I said "a little."


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 2, 2015)

Genjutsu is a main tool for Itachi because he has low chakra reserves. If Minato knows not to look at Itachi's eyes, and all other Genjutsu Itachi has is just good for Chunin level bar Izanami... there's no way Genjutsu is going to work.

Itachi just has to hope that his 5 uses of MS will do something before he drops dead. Itachi _should_ start with Susanoo to begin with so it gives him room to use other jutsu. That's something he'll do as, unlike the exaggerated arguments, Itachi knows without Susanoo, he's just waiting to die.

Then from there you get things like Itachi being teleported out of Susanoo. Of course if you factor in Fukasaku and Shima making SM permanent, or Minato having Kurama... then this is just a stomp in Minato's favour.


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> btw kishi in his manga mentioned A speed made it difficult for sharingan genjutus to be cast on him
> 
> A again mentions it, saying how could he be caught by a mere sharingan genjutsu
> 
> ...



I am not talking about how Minato can dodge it or if he can. I am just saying how bad the "The Gokage dodged Madara's genjutsu" argument is.

Hussain: Because we need Gai. He makes everything better.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I am not talking about how Minato can dodge it or if he can. I am just saying how bad the "The Gokage dodged Madara's genjutsu" argument is.
> 
> Hussain: Because we need Gai. He makes everything better.



oh no the gokage didn't dodge genjutsu 

who the  claimed that ? I need to scold that person

only A was actually implied to make genjutsu difficult to land and only A needed to be genjutsu'd 

the rest didn't need to be. they could be steamrolled without it


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh no the gokage didn't dodge genjutsu
> 
> who the  claimed that ? I need to scold that person
> 
> ...



 Exactly. Ei was the only Kage hyped up to the point where Sharingan Genjutsu would not work, largely based on speed due to his Flicker being able to escape the Sharingan's LoS and also having reflexes/ speed that surpasses what a Sharingan can perceive (as hinted by C). The other Kages haven't received such hype and haven't earned feats that deserve that hype anyways.

 Onoki arguably needed to be genjutsu'd, though clearly Madara felt the need to only genjutsu Ei to diminish his willpower quickly due to his lack of attention towards Onoki and the fact that he disregarded him based on his performance against Madara in the past. Furthermore, the Kages were in bad shape and the only Kage who continued fighting was starting to show signs of fatigue as Tsunade began coughing up blood. Ei didn't exactly need to be Genjutsu'd, but he needed to in order to diminish his spirit quickly unless the Susano'o clones wanted to engage in an extended clash against Ei.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Exactly. Ei was the only Kage hyped up to the point where Sharingan Genjutsu would not work, largely based on speed due to his Flicker being able to escape the Sharingan's LoS and also having reflexes/ speed that surpasses what a Sharingan can perceive (as hinted by C). The other Kages haven't received such hype and haven't earned feats that deserve that hype anyways.
> 
> Onoki arguably needed to be genjutsu'd, though clearly Madara felt the need to only genjutsu Ei to diminish his willpower quickly due to his lack of attention towards Onoki and the fact that he disregarded him based on his performance against Madara in the past. Furthermore, the Kages were in bad shape and the only Kage who continued fighting was starting to show signs of fatigue as Tsunade began coughing up blood. Ei didn't exactly need to be Genjutsu'd, but he needed to in order to diminish his spirit quickly unless the Susano'o clones wanted to engage in an extended clash against Ei.



A hyped to the point genjutsu wont work means. minato gets that hype 

therefore itachi isn't going to be landing genjutsu 

A<<<<<<<minato in speed


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Unfortunately, Minato's reaction speed pales in comparison to RCM Ei and Minato heavily relies on CQC, so after a Hiraishin warp, he will be susceptible to genjutsu provided he doesn't avoid eye contact which is arguable considering he didn't do so against Obito despite having knowledge on his genjutsu capabilities.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Unfortunately, Minato's reaction speed pales in comparison to RCM Ei and Minato heavily relies on CQC, so after a Hiraishin warp, he will be susceptible to genjutsu provided he doesn't avoid eye contact which is arguable considering he didn't do so against Obito despite having knowledge on his genjutsu capabilities.



but his movement speed>>>>>>>>>>A 

think of it this way. movng from point A to B minato will always get there first. 

now if A movement from point A to B is too fast for sharingan to follow. then minato movement will be as well 

juubito after hirashin wrap failed to react to the attack. assuming itachi can react is nice and dandy but isn't nearly as likely as u would like to think 

when by being marked a fly like SM Naruto was able to tag juubito who is several tiers ahead 

he did not do so against obito because obito fighting style was fairly obvious. phasing then physically attack 

itachi doesn't fight in that manner. so I see no reason for him not to resort to the common try get behind the sharingan user LOS 

something even A did, despite being a brute. sasuke activates MS, A next plan of action get out of LOS

minato sees MS. and does the same but quicker 

since minato moving from point A to B>>>>>>A doing the same thing


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> but his movement speed>>>>>>>>>>A



 Is that why he needed a field of Kunai to evade Young Ei's Shunshin, the same Shunshin that surpassed his expectations. C's statement directly states that Minato's speed and reflexes aren't comparable to RCM Ei's.



> think of it this way. movng from point A to B minato will always get there first.



 Sure, but Hiraishin isn't pure movement speed.



> now if A movement from point A to B is too fast for sharingan to follow. then minato movement will be as well



 But it's not. MS Sasuke managed to follow Ei's flicker until he escaped his LoS as his flicker is faster than how fast Sasuke can rotate his head.



> juubito after hirashin wrap failed to react to the attack. assuming itachi can react is nice and dandy but isn't nearly as likely as u would like to think



 Sure, but he was partially distracted and didn't expect it. Itachi would be incapable of doing so not being of inferior reflexes, but because he doesn't have any techniques such as Hiraishin that can instantly and safely bail him out.



> when by being marked a fly like SM Naruto was able to tag juubito who is several tiers ahead



 SM Naruto tagged him due to leaving his weak spot unprotected. Think of it as a blind spot. 

 Also had to be done for plot protection or Juubito wouldn't have a legit reason to defending against BM Minato's and BSM Naruto's teamwork.



> he did not do so against obito because obito fighting style was fairly obvious. phasing then physically attack



 It's not. Minato used basic logic to counter it. No one has Hiraishin, so therefore it would take far more critical thinking to counter it.



> itachi doesn't fight in that manner. so I see no reason for him not to resort to the common try get behind the sharingan user LOS



 Not sure if I can properly refute this as I'm confused about what you're implying. Can you please elaborate further?



> something even A did, despite being a brute. sasuke activates MS, A next plan of action get out of LOS



 Which he could b/c his flicker is faster than how quick Sasuke rotates his head.



> minato sees MS. and does the same but quicker



 Yes, and he's less reflexive overall.



> since minato moving from point A to B>>>>>>A doing the same thing



 Minato needs great reflexes accompanying his Hiraishin or he gets fodder-stomped.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

> NarutoX28 said:
> 
> 
> > Is that why he needed a field of Kunai to evade Young Ei's Shunshin, the same Shunshin that surpassed his expectations. C's statement directly states that Minato's speed and reflexes aren't comparable to RCM Ei's.
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Unfortunately, Minato's reaction speed pales in comparison to RCM Ei and Minato heavily relies on CQC, so after a Hiraishin warp, he will be susceptible to genjutsu provided he doesn't avoid eye contact which is arguable considering he didn't do so against Obito despite having knowledge on his genjutsu capabilities.



Kakashi and Naruto were able to do what the could with Itachi despite not looking into his eyes. Especially the latter where Itachi had to resort to different Genjutsu outlets to take him.

Most likely the same applied to Minato.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

Minato moves faster than A and we saw how A made it bloody difficult for both MS sasuke and madara to land genjutsu or to even track his movements

Itachi will be hard pressed to genjutsu someone who he cant track


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## Bloo (Jun 3, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi and Naruto were able to do what the could with Itachi despite not looking into his eyes. Especially the latter where Itachi had to resort to different Genjutsu outlets to take him.
> 
> Most likely the same applied to Minato.


This can't be applied here. First of all, Kakashi trained under Gai's recommendation for future encounters with Itachi specifically. Minato has never been hinted at doing the same.

Naruto didn't evade shit. He was hit with a genjutsu before he moved a foot. Naruto did not fight with Itachi and avoid genjutsu at the same time.  Naruto is not one to successfully evade genjutsu:


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 3, 2015)

Minatto didn't try to avoid eye contact because Minato already knew he was using genjutsu to control the nine tails.

Then after he stabs Obito and removes his control of the nine tails, you see him duck down while looking upwards, in order to avoid eye contact. 

No one questions Hashirama making eye contact with Madara "magically" got below Tobi. Typical I guess, no one ever questions Hashirama.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minatto didn't try to avoid eye contact because Minato already knew he was using genjutsu to control the nine tails.
> 
> Then after he stabs Obito and removes his control of the nine tails, you see him duck down while looking upwards, in order to avoid eye contact.
> 
> No one questions Hashirama making eye contact with Madara "magically" got below Tobi. Typical I guess, no one ever questions Hashirama.



fair point

madara did genjutsu hashirama though. perhaps hashirama shouldnt have looked at his eyes

and true minato did know obito was using genjutus to actively control the 9 tails. cant believe i forgot that


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> fair point
> 
> madara did genjutsu hashirama though. perhaps hashirama shouldnt have looked at his eyes
> 
> and true minato did know obito was using genjutus to actively control the 9 tails. cant believe i forgot that


I dont recall hashirama getting caught in genjutsu 

I assumed hashirama was also well aware that madara was already using genjutsu to control kurama, just like minato.

And yh, when minato rrmoved obitos control, you see minato avoiding eye contact here (3)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

Bloo said:


> This can't be applied here. First of all, Kakashi trained under Gai's recommendation for future encounters with Itachi specifically. Minato has never been hinted at doing the same.



Kakashi asked how Gai did it, going by Chiyo, not looking into a Sharingan user's eyes is common knowledge. Minato obviously would have such knowledge.

Kishi doesn't need to baby us through every little thing. If Obito couldn't use Genjutsu on Minato, it was probably because it wasn't possible. Perhaps because there was no eye contact. Which means a lot seeing as Obito's *base* Genjutsu is comparable to Itachi's Tsukuyomi in terms of how it damages the victim.



> Naruto didn't evade shit. He was hit with a genjutsu before he moved a foot. Naruto did not fight with Itachi and avoid genjutsu at the same time.  Naruto is not one to successfully evade genjutsu:



Read: Itachi had to resort to different Genjutsu outlets to take him. Shisui eyed crow was used because Itachi couldn't get Naruto.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Minato moves faster than A and we saw how A made it bloody difficult for both MS sasuke and madara to land genjutsu or to even track his movements
> 
> Itachi will be hard pressed to genjutsu someone who he cant track



 You lost me at Minato being faster than A when C implies that his reflexes and speed is only on Base Ei's caliber.

 MS Sasuke tracked his movements until Ei flickered faster than Sasuke can rotate his head. Likewise, Madara easily tracked Ei's movements despite being preoccupied with Mei's Lava Release.

 Itachi is more reflexive than EMS Sasuke who's even more reflexive than MS Sasuke and Itachi has shown superior feats in his physical stats anyways compared to EMS Sasuke (Pre-Juubito) during their fight with Kabuto. Even then, MS Sasuke still tracked Ei as he displayed no surprise when Ei managed to flicker behind him.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 3, 2015)

Ei: there is no one faster than me, now that the fourth has passed.

Databook:
- praised as the greatest amongst all ninja in god like speed
- raiton chakra mode was able to chase naruto in kyuubi chakra mode and praised to be as fast as the yellow flash.

Naruto fantards: No Ei is faster, we know more than kishi.

Im honeslty tired of this bull $hit. Why we denying manga facts.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You lost me at Minato being faster than A when C implies that his reflexes and speed is only on Base Ei's caliber.
> 
> MS Sasuke tracked his movements until Ei flickered faster than Sasuke can rotate his head. Likewise, Madara easily tracked Ei's movements despite being preoccupied with Mei's Lava Release.
> 
> Itachi is more reflexive than EMS Sasuke who's even more reflexive than MS Sasuke and Itachi has shown superior feats in his physical stats anyways compared to EMS Sasuke (Pre-Juubito) during their fight with Kabuto. Even then, MS Sasuke still tracked Ei as he displayed no surprise when Ei managed to flicker behind him.





A himself said minato is faster

databook says A speed lags behind minato's 

btw when I said V2 A moves slower than minato. that's a fact. as his movement involves hirashin unless u think he got magic marks everywhere

A claiming minato is faster than he is, also involves minato ability to set up marks as well. 

Sasuke could barely keep track of A who is slower than minato by his own admission. and also by minato getting behind him with ease 

and avoiding him again without A being able to even track where he went 

if A speed was implied to make it difficult for genjutsu to land. minato speed will be trolling genjutsu casually 

him getting behind itachi is as simple as throwing 6 kunai at itachi. his are heavier than itachi's. so delfecting them wont move them so far off that they would be out of hirashin wrap range. 

from there he is already behind itachi

if the guy can get kunai close to juubito and juudara casually. itachi will not be getting away from any kunai. 

now itachi reactions<<<<<<<<<<<<<juubito reactions. and we saw how having hirashin mark on him worked against him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2015)

Why is Ei vs Minato in speed relevant when Itachi's speed cannot compare to either. 

The only speed Itachi has that could be comparable is hand seal speed.


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## Kyu (Jun 3, 2015)

> C implies that his reflexes and speed is only on Base Ei's caliber



People bring up C as if he's some unbiased credible source and hadn't previously shown a mild disdain for konoha shinobi. He had to be what? Six y/o during the third war?(C was 26 when he first made the claim - the kage summit incident occurred 16 years after Minato's death & Minato/Ei first clashed approximately 20 years post C's statement - Minato was 20 at the time, iirc.)

We've seen guys slower than Minato react to v1 RCM Ei, therefore I'm more inclined to say C was slobbering on his boss' knob more than anything else.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 4, 2015)

Kyu said:


> People bring up C as if he's some unbiased credible source and hadn't previously shown a mild disdain for konoha shinobi. He had to be what? Six y/o during the third war?(C was 26 when he first made the claim - the kage summit incident occurred 16 years after Minato's death & Minato/Ei first clashed approximately 20 years post C's statement - Minato was 20 at the time, iirc.)
> 
> We've seen guys slower than Minato react to v1 RCM Ei, therefore I'm more inclined to say C was slobbering on his boss' knob more than anything else.



People are just confused by C's wording. He never said anything about raikages speed surpassing minatos, only that in rcm, sasukes sharingan will struggle to follow him.

Datebook has already debunked peoples claims anyway. Considering it says that rcm is just as fast as e yellow flash. So really, i dont understand why people grasp at straws.


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

I honestly would LOVE to see how itachi is going to react to this shit.


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## Six (Jun 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I honestly would LOVE to see how itachi is going to react this shit.



The moment he teleports and looks in his eyes, it will all be over


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I honestly would LOVE to see how itachi is going to react this shit.



His body wouldnt be able to react to that speed, however he should be able to activate susanoo at the last second to block it, but in doing so, minato marks his suanoo in that one moment. And its pretty much over from there.

Only a rikudo character could have done what madara did against minato.


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> The moment he teleports and looks in his eyes, it will all be over



if only Genjutsu was automatic.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I honestly would LOVE to see how itachi is going to react this shit.



* it sent bee flying through the earth in a futile attempt to stop it.*

The question is, how is Minato going to react to flash Susano'O ?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> * it sent bee flying through the earth in a futile attempt to stop it.*
> 
> The question is, how is Minato going to react to flash Susano'O ?



And in doing so, his susnoo gets marked and he becomes minatos b1tch


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> * it sent bee flying through the earth in a futile attempt to stop it.*
> 
> The question is, how is Minato going to react to flash Susano'O ?



I see itachi open there. 
Also, since when is Kabuto as fast as Minato?


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## Rai (Jun 4, 2015)

It will end like Naruto vs Sasuke.

Minato wins.

He become Hokage and Itachi will be his dog.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> * it sent bee flying through the earth in a futile attempt to stop it.*
> 
> The question is, how is Minato going to react to flash Susano'O ?



You're seriously implying that a "flash Susanoo" has activation speed comparable to Juubidara?


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

you all do know that marking susanoo is marking itachi right

he is marking itachi chakra. so all minato needs to do is play the dodge game till itachi runs out of chakra for susanoo then he absolutely violates him by ripping his head off 

Minato cant exactly loose to itachi. the guy specializes in throwing kunai, so much so that its fast enough to get him from point A to B 

before V2 A can get there. that should tell u something 

and yes I believe minato throwing a kunai from point 0 to the enemy and getting there will always be done quicker than A going full blitz in V2


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why is Ei vs Minato in speed relevant when Itachi's speed cannot compare to either.
> 
> The only speed Itachi has that could be comparable is hand seal speed.



because I believe as most that itachi ability to strike an enemy down can be as quick as A speed at the very best 

for example at 5m away itachi tskuyomi can drop an enemy as quick as A going V2 and blitzing

itachi reactions are also I believe better than minato's

however where itachi pales compared to both is movement speed. in that regard they leave him well behind


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> because I believe as most that itachi ability to strike an enemy down can be as quick as A speed at the very best
> 
> for example at 5m away itachi tskuyomi can drop an enemy as quick as A going V2 and blitzing
> 
> ...



The only speed he beats both in are hand seal speed.


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> because I believe as most that itachi ability to strike an enemy down can be as quick as A speed at the very best
> 
> for example at 5m away itachi tskuyomi can drop an enemy as quick as A going V2 and blitzing
> 
> ...



What is itachi's reaction feats that exceeds Minato's exactly when he always react to the fastest shit around? 

Can you for example give us something that is better than Minato reacting to Gai's full speed?


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## Six (Jun 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> if only Genjutsu was automatic.



Tsukuyomi is


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

I think you are reading Raruto, my dear.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What is itachi's reaction feats that exceeds Minato's exactly when he always react to the fastest shit around?
> 
> Can you for example give us something that is better than Minato reacting to Gai's full speed?



if gai was moving full speed then rock lee kunai throwning speed is monstrous u get that right 

combined attack mainly 

I think he got better reactions because he got keener eyes mainly. don't got feats like that to go on not gonna claim I do 

regardless though and what my point is, is regardless of if itachi has better reactions or not. minato ability to be unpredictable and having access to far greater movement speed ensures he will be winning 

I just think people with boosts in precog, eg: SM, MS, RCM should have better reactions than minato


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

> if gai was moving full speed then rock lee kunai throwning speed is monstrous u get that right



He was, and yes, Lee's throwing speed is insane, that's why he was using the 6th Gate as well.



> I just think people with boosts in precog, eg: SM, MS, RCM should have better reactions than minato



They don't. Not by feats at least. Only ones who do are those with the Juubi's powers, and Gai with Gates.


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

why would gai move full speed in a combined attack though

that puts lee and minato reactions above the likes of juudara which is laughable 

juudara could barely turn his head round to follow guy. yet these guys can just catch up to him like that. nope don't believe it 

yh by feats sure, perhaps. He did escape kamui mid wrap 

yh I recant. he an annoying character. lol


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2015)

Because he was told to go at full speed. I still haven't figure out from where people came up with that crappy excuse that Gai was not going at full speed honestly.  

- you know how this manga work, it's nothing new. Those type of shits are all over the place.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 4, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> And in doing so, his susnoo gets marked and he becomes minatos b1tch



Susano'o is a chakra construct. Marking dissapears as soon as Itachi turns susano'o off and on.
Not that Minato is stupid enough to try to touch it and take the risk of being crushed like a cardboard.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're seriously implying that a "flash Susanoo" has activation speed comparable to Juubidara?



No, I'm saying that it is fast enough to defend him from Minato. 



Hussain said:


> I see itachi open there.


Itachi was able to activate Susano'o and grab Sasuke before Kabuto could cover a small distance. 
Sasuke was able to flash activate Susano'o and protect Naruto from Juubito before Minato could do anything. 
Susano'o flash activation isn't something to be fucked with.



> Also, since when is Kabuto as fast as Minato?



They are both sage mode users. Minato's body speed ain't that impressive anyways. He isn't blitzing anyone of Itachi's caliber unless he blindsides him, especially with sharingan precog reading his moves like a book.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, I'm saying that it is fast enough to defend him from Minato.



So an "instant Susanoo" is as fast as Juubidara to defend from a SM Minato?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Susano'o is a chakra construct. Marking dissapears as soon as Itachi turns susano'o off and on.
> Not that Minato is stupid enough to try to touch it and take the risk of being crushed like a cardboard.
> 
> 
> ...


This huy talks so much bull its incredible. Its like when itachi is involved, your brain stops working and switches to wank mode.

First of all, minato isn't getting crushed by susanoo, its not fast enough to touch him, and unlike itachi, minato is a sensor, he can easily react so such things. Once minato touchs the susanoo, he can instantly separate it from itachi, and then itachi is left vulnerable, if itachi deactives susanoo in attempt to remove the seal, then he oeaves himself vulnerable to an ftg blitz. Itachi cannot and will not be able to track minatos ftg movements. Not when he can move between dozens of of kunai in mere second. So i dont inow what youre arguing, if itacho does get up suanoo before being blitzed, then his susanoo gets touched and moved away. And if he doesnt bring up susnoo, he gets slaughtered in cqc.

Kabuto is nowhere near minatos level of speed. Ftg or not. Considering minatos shunshin has been associated with the yellow flash moniker multiple times in the manga, by both obito and killer bee and yamato, and considering the databook says rcm as fast as the yellow flash, then yeah, your underestimation of speed is quite sad here. Considering ms sasuke could barely follow ei, who is slower overall.

Then theres the fact that itachi fans cant accept that alive sick itachi doesnt even have the stamina to compete with a sage user. Everytime itachi uses an ms technique, he has to cover his eye in pain. If he uses amaterasu, he bleeds in agony. If he uses susanoo, he'll probably start coughting up blood, even tsukuyomi makes him pant. If itschi has to cover his eye in pain for one moment against an ftg user, he's dead. He physically cannot compete. I think the feats of edo itachi have spoiled some of you, considering susanoo was only itachis trump card when he was alive. It was never something he could even dare spam, or use multiple times in battle. That'll literally sap all his chakra.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 4, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So an "instant Susanoo" is as fast as Juubidara to defend from a SM Minato?



Jubidara _casually_ pwned Sage Minato. Whether Susano'o is equally as fast is beside the point. It is faster than Bee, who we saw skillfully counter base Minato's Hiraishin.​


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## Rocky (Jun 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It is faster than Bee, who we saw skillfully counter base Minato's Hiraishin.



B guessed right on a 50/50 shot to temporarily fend off Minato, and he was only in position to do that in the first place because Minato was being run down by the second fastest man in the world.

Minato noticed B's "counter" and, instead of just switching his attack direction, decided to complement B for even managing to get that far. Minato did not have a serious interest in killing them, and that was evident when he starting spewing life lessons and speaking of the future. 

My guess is that if B were alone and Minato wanted him gone we'd be looking at a much different outcome than what happened in the manga.


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## LanzaVelocity (Jun 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So an "instant Susanoo" is as fast as Juubidara to defend from a SM Minato?


:ignoramus


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

why would marking on susanoo disappear ? when itachi turns it off. 

marking susanoo links minato chakra with itachi's 

itachi cannot remove the seal by deactivating susanoo. the mark will link itachi chakra (susanoo) to minato 

what sort of fan fic is that. deactivate susanoo to get rid of the mark. hirashin mark is a cursed seal mark, linking minato to what he touches via imprinting his chakra and sealing it

its like saying if minato touches A RCM, all A has to do is deactivate it to get rid of it


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

> [=Grimmjowsensei;53732476]
> 
> Itachi was able to activate Susano'o and grab Sasuke before Kabuto could cover a small distance.
> Sasuke was able to flash activate Susano'o and protect Naruto from Juubito before Minato could do anything.
> Susano'o flash activation isn't something to be fucked with.



I'll wait for Kabuto's speed feats that comparable to Minato. As for your second example, Minato was headed towards Obito to attack, when Obito suddenly appeared and tried to attack them, and he also attacked Minato with his legs. I don't see how is that comparable to anything with the uchiha's fight, or in this fight.

Minato won't have to protects the kids nor will he have to worry about anything else besides flooring itachi. 





> They are both sage mode users. Minato's body speed ain't that impressive anyways. He isn't blitzing anyone of Itachi's caliber unless he blindsides him, especially with sharingan precog reading his moves like a book



Nonsense. Minato shunshin is fast enough to save Kushina from Kurama's attack and go to the Tree on the mountain, when SM Narudo was blitzed by Kurama. Minato's shunshin was fast enough to cross Konoha and drop a huge ass frog on Kurama out side the village. His shunshin speed was fast enough to go all around the Juubi without a single shinobi even noticing him.  

What does Kabuto have to even come close to that exactly? 

lol Sharingan. My Dear Grimm, even if we assume that's true, itachi's speed is no where near Minato's. He will get the Lee - Sasuke's treatment.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I'll wait for Kabuto's speed feats that comparable to Minato.


What are Minato's feats outside Hirashin ?



> As for your second example, Minato was headed towards Obito to attack, when Obito suddenly appeared and tried to attack them, and he also attacked Minato with his legs. I don't see how is that comparable to anything with the uchiha's fight, or in this fight.


Actually Minato had time to react and do something about it, he said something like "please make it in time." Sasuke simply acted faster with flash Susano'o.



> Minato won't have to protects the kids nor will he have to worry about anything else besides flooring itachi.


That part is irrelevant. I'm merely talking about the time it takes to activate Susano'o.




> Nonsense. Minato shunshin is fast enough to save Kushina from Kurama's attack and go to the Tree on the mountain,


Interception feat.


> when SM Narudo was blitzed by Kurama.


when did that happen ?


> Minato's shunshin was fast enough to cross Konoha and drop a huge ass frog on Kurama out side the village.


Not a combat feat.


> His shunshin speed was fast enough to go all around the Juubi without a single shinobi even noticing him.


I don't remember this but I'm 100% sure this isn'T a combat feat either.



> What does Kabuto have to even come close to that exactly?


The thing is, Minato never used his body speed in combat. So it is hard to tell really. I have no doubt that it is top tier, Like Itachi's or Gai's(shinobi without any chakra enhancements) but I have no reason to put him above people like those I mentioned. I mean, the dude couldn't use a rasengan before black Zetsu stole Kyuubi 



> lol Sharingan. My Dear Grimm, even if we assume that's true, itachi's speed is no where near Minato's. He will get the Lee - Sasuke's treatment.


Itachi's speed is enough to go toe to toe with Naruto and is well above B. 
There is actually 0 evidence in the manga that Minato's speed, bar Hirashin, as above those.

So again, Itachi having having sharingan on top if it is icing on the cake.

Remember how Sasuke was able to pre-empt and counter all of Kn0 Naruto's moves, despite Kn0 being massively faster than him.

Even if we assume that Minato is that much faster(which obviously isn't the case), Itachi can still read him with the sharingan.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So an "instant Susanoo" is as fast as Juubidara to defend from a SM Minato?



Juubidara chopped Minato's arm and kicked him twice before Minato could properly move.

I am merely saying that Itachi can activate Susano'o during that time, not that he can do the same thing Madara did.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> This huy talks so much bull its incredible. Its like when itachi is involved, your brain stops working and switches to wank mode.


Ad hominem. 
Ironic coming from someone who can't properly see because of all the Minato sperm he has on his eyes 



> First of all, minato isn't getting crushed by susanoo, its not fast enough to touch him, and unlike itachi, minato is a sensor, he can easily react so such things. Once minato touchs the susanoo, he can instantly separate it from itachi, and then itachi is left vulnerable, if itachi deactives susanoo in attempt to remove the seal, then he oeaves himself vulnerable to an ftg blitz. Itachi cannot and will not be able to track minatos ftg movements. Not when he can move between dozens of of kunai in mere second. So i dont inow what youre arguing, if itacho does get up suanoo before being blitzed, then his susanoo gets touched and moved away. And if he doesnt bring up susnoo, he gets slaughtered in cqc.


I said* if* Minato tries to touch Susano'O he gets crushed. Because I believe Minato's body speed isn't faster than Susano'o. So he either has to back off, or get wrecked.
And like I already mentioned, unless Minato has a Kunai around Itachi that Itachi isn't aware of, he isn't blitzing Itachi. 



> Kabuto is nowhere near minatos level of speed. Ftg or not. Considering minatos shunshin has been associated with the yellow flash moniker multiple times in the manga, by both obito and killer bee and yamato, and considering the databook says rcm as fast as the yellow flash, then yeah, your underestimation of speed is quite sad here. Considering ms sasuke could barely follow ei, who is slower overall.


Minato is yellow flash because he is fast overall, including Hirashin, obviousyl
Minato hasn't done anything, even with KCM(which he doesn't have here), that seperates him other fast people. He literally has no speed feats in combat aside from the ones that involve Hirashin.



> Then theres the fact that itachi fans cant accept that alive sick itachi doesnt even have the stamina to compete with a sage user. Everytime itachi uses an ms technique, he has to cover his eye in pain. If he uses amaterasu, he bleeds in agony. If he uses susanoo, he'll probably start coughting up blood, even tsukuyomi makes him pant. If itschi has to cover his eye in pain for one moment against an ftg user, he's dead. He physically cannot compete. I think the feats of edo itachi have spoiled some of you, considering susanoo was only itachis trump card when he was alive. It was never something he could even dare spam, or use multiple times in battle. That'll literally sap all his chakra.



Itachi started couging blood after his 2nd Amaterasu.
His condition got worse when he used full Susano'o.
If he uses ribcage here and there, he'll be fine, which is enough to tank or fend of all of Minato's attacks.
Itachi doesn't need Stage 2 - 3 or 4 here.

I also assumed this is Itachi without sickness to make things fair. Or do you think Itachi is too much for Minato that he needs some kind of a nerf for Minato to stand a chance ?


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

odd how juubito couldnt read Sm naruto attack thanks to hirashin, or tobirama's

i guess juubito did not have the rinnegan or sharingan or sage sensing...oh no wait he did


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## Legend777 (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Interception feat.



Means jack considering he used Hirashin to get to Kushina and then used his own body speed to move her to the top of the tree while Kyuubi was in the middle of striking . 

Interception feats are usually discounted because we have no idea when the movement of the shinobi in question started nor his distance from the target  . And Hirashin usage makes it in this scenario.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

I almost got depressed when I saw that wall of text, Grimmjowsensei. 
thank God it was not all towards me. 

I might get to it latter on. Put here is some rep for the effort tho.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

interception feats or not. unless itachi got reactions a la juubito if he is tagged he is screwed

note minato still got his tags within striking range of juudara and juubito effortlessly 

so this whole itachi can anticiapte the tags is fan fic. he can defend with susanoo. sadly he cannot keep defending

the polls say it all really


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Legend777 said:


> Means jack considering he used Hirashin to get to Kushina and then used his own body speed to move her to the top of the tree while Kyuubi was in the middle of striking .
> 
> Interception feats are usually discounted because we have no idea when the movement of the shinobi in question started nor his distance from the target  . And Hirashin usage makes it in this scenario.



All interception feats can be safely discounted as they are off combat feats(performed by a 3rd party), are plot driven, and usually come into picture at a very critical life and death moment to give the audience the feels(so they can exaggerated).


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 5, 2015)

Legend777 said:


> Means jack considering he used Hirashin to get to Kushina and then used his own body speed to move her to the top of the tree while Kyuubi was in the middle of striking .
> 
> Interception feats are usually discounted because we have no idea when the movement of the shinobi in question started nor his distance from the target  . And Hirashin usage makes it in this scenario.



He didnt use hiraishin to get to kushina. He used his own body speed to save her. He only used hiraishin to take her back home.

And i should have known this guy would say "interception feats" again. Always the same excuse, as if an interception feat cant be turned into an offensive one, when minato saved kaakshi from the rock ninja, he simultaneoulsy placed a marking on the guys foot. That is striking speed and well as simultaneously intercepting. So that interception crap is a flawed excuse.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 5, 2015)

Even if Minato tags Susanoo, its over. As shown multiple times in the manga, there is a radius around the marking at Minato can teleport to. Also in the manga, Gaara was able to grab Madara's arm in Susanoo. This indicates that Susanoo is not some solid thing all the way around.

Easy win for Minato. No Hirashin Minato makes the fight better IMO.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> He didnt use hiraishin to get to kushina. He used his own body speed to save her. He only used hiraishin to take her back home.
> 
> And i should have known this guy would say "interception feats" again. Always the same excuse, as if an interception feat cant be turned into an offensive one, when minato saved kaakshi from the rock ninja, he simultaneoulsy placed a marking on the guys foot. That is striking speed and well as simultaneously intercepting. So that interception crap is a flawed excuse.



Rock ninja are fodder. Feats performed on fodder don't count.

Itachi simultaneously beat down 3 adult Uchiha with 3 tomoe sharingans without breaking sweat when he was basically a kid. Can I use that a basis for any of my arguments ?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Rock ninja are fodder. Feats performed on fodder don't count.
> 
> Itachi simultaneously beat down 3 adult Uchiha with 3 tomoe sharingans without breaking sweat when he was basically a kid. Can I use that a basis for any of my arguments ?



And kid Minato defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha and stole the Kyuubi Jin right under the noses of ninja like Prime Sarutobi. Every ninja in the Konoha (including the legendary Prime Sarutobi) gave up because they knew they couldn't find Kushina. In essence, Kid Minato showed intelligence and strength of that beyond Prime Sarutobi and any ninja in the Konoha. 

In addition, Tobirama faced a similiar Kumo Ninja Task Force and died miserably. 

Kid Minato > Prime Sarutobi 

Kid Minato >  Tobirama 

Damn, Minato is just on another level


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Rock ninja are fodder. Feats performed on fodder don't count.
> 
> Itachi simultaneously beat down 3 adult Uchiha with 3 tomoe sharingans without breaking sweat when he was basically a kid. Can I use that a basis for any of my arguments ?


You have a lot of made up rules. But you could just save us all the trouble and say "any feat that doesnt support itachi shouldnt be taken into consideration"

Youre the same guy who just said minato flicking his wrist and throwing a kunai above Ei From 5m while he was moving at his stop speed is no big deal. I know 100% of that was itachi, it would be a big deal. But that isnt how your mind works of course. 

The Mahiru wasnt fodder, he was a jonin whith chakra reserves high enough to create 19 shadow clones and enough swordsmanship to intercept kakashis full speed. And it was minato intercepting kakashis speed as well. Kakashi who also wasnt fodder, he was a jonin and he was running at top speed, which minato intercepted in a second.

You said he has no speed feats, he has plenty but you deny them all. And this is a character who has minimal screen time and feats, being dead and all.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> And kid Minato defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha and stole the Kyuubi Jin right under the noses of ninja like Prime Sarutobi. Every ninja in the Konoha (including the legendary Prime Sarutobi) gave up because they knew they couldn't find Kushina. In essence, Kid Minato showed intelligence and strength of that beyond Prime Sarutobi and any ninja in the Konoha.
> 
> In addition, Tobirama faced a similiar Kumo Ninja Task Force and died miserably.
> 
> ...



In other words, it wasn't just against fodder, but also off paneled.

So its like 0 + 0 = 0





RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> You have a lot of made up rules. But you could just save us all the trouble and say "any feat that doesnt support itachi shouldnt be taken into consideration"


I just said Itachi beating down 3 adult Uchiha doesn't count too.



> Youre the same guy who just said minato flicking his wrist and throwing a kunai above Ei From 5m while he was moving at his stop speed is no big deal. I know 100% of that was itachi, it would be a big deal. But that isnt how your mind works of course.


It isn't a big deal. Because what A did in that instance *physically*, is fuckloads more impressive.
I don't think Itachi would be able to accomplish anything by flicking his wrist, he'd turn to paste.
So no, I wouldn't find it impressive if it was Itachi.



> The Mahiru wasnt fodder, he was a jonin whith chakra reserves high enough to create 19 shadow clones and enough swordsmanship to intercept kakashis full speed. And it was minato intercepting kakashis speed as well. Kakashi who also wasnt fodder, he was a jonin and he was running at top speed, which minato intercepted in a second.


Again, Minato was able to intercept a 13 year old kid who just was promoted to jounin.
From that perspective, the guys Itachi beat weren't fodder too. They all had 3 tomoe sharingan.
Guess who started whooping rock shinobi ass when he got the 2 tomoe  ? 



> You said he has no speed feats, he has plenty but you deny them all. And this is a character who has minimal screen time and feats, being dead and all.


He doesn't though, I am not denying anything.
Minato's speed feats are either against relatively week fodder or interception feats or both.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In other words, it wasn't just against fodder, but also off paneled.
> 
> So its like 0 + 0 = 0



Fodder > Prime Sarutobi + Konoha?

Off=paneled means something didnt happen?

Sounds like desperate attempt at discrediting Minato


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jubidara _casually_ pwned Sage Minato. Whether Susano'o is equally as fast is beside the point. It is faster than Bee, who we saw skillfully counter base Minato's Hiraishin.​



Bee countered nothing, he exploited the time Minato spent talking to A. Goob, I'm sure we've already gone through purposely misinterpreting arguments which have implications in a thread relating to Itachi. 

Also you didn't even bother talking about Susanoo properly, so your response was pretty pointless. It seems like you were more interested at trying to highlight that Godara Uchiha owned Minato.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Juubidara chopped Minato's arm and kicked him twice before Minato could properly move.
> 
> I am merely saying that Itachi can activate Susano'o during that time, not that he can do the same thing Madara did.



I know, that's why I am puzzled on why you'd even compare Susanoo's activation time, from the weakest MS user in the original manga, to the reflexes/speed of the second strongest Juubi Jinchuriki. 

Minato's a fast mofo in base, with Sharingan prediction... Mangekyou Sharingan prediction*, I can understand the possibility of countering base Minato with the method you're referencing. That's even arguable as prediction only kicks in when Minato appears; he was able to move faster than Tobi could react. Something that was part of his reputation (though that's with speed inferior to shrouded A's).

That's a fast mofo. Now Senjutsu will *drastically* increase Minato's already exceptional speed.
And you're telling me that Itachi can react to that? This isn't like Kabuto who wasn't insanely fast prior SM, this is Minato who was already pretty damn fast without SM.

Minato's speed may very well be too much for Itachi to react to in that scenario. Whether that precise scenario will be set up or not is another discussion. I'm saying because Juubidara was able to do it, it doesn't mean Itachi can react. Obito is a unique case as he doesn't even have to react, he just has to use Kamui which works on the likes of Juubidara. 


_
Danzou...Sasuke is an Uchiha, and a wielder of the Mangekyou Sharingan.
His eyes are superior to yours.
He noticed what happened a split second before you would have_​Link


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I know, that's why I am puzzled on why you'd even compare Susanoo's activation time, from the weakest MS user in the original manga, to the reflexes/speed of the second strongest Juubi Jinchuriki.


That is with the fallacious assumption that JJ Madara's reaction speed is the bar minimum reaction speed that is required to react to Minato.
Which we know is wrong because Juubito, in both his states(mindless and the latter) didn't have any trouble reacting to KCM Minato(which should be alot faster than his base version). 

When you prove to me that base Minato(or sage Minato) can move too fast for the sharingan to see, then I'll accept that Itachi can't react to him.



> Minato's a fast mofo in base, with Sharingan prediction... Mangekyou Sharingan prediction*, I can understand the possibility of countering base Minato with the method you're referencing. That's even arguable as prediction only kicks in when Minato appears; he was able to move faster than Tobi could react. Something that was part of his reputation (though that's with speed inferior to shrouded A's).
> 
> That's a fast mofo. Now Senjutsu will *drastically* increase Minato's already exceptional speed.
> And you're telling me that Itachi can react to that? This isn't like Kabuto who wasn't insanely fast prior SM, this is Minato who was already pretty damn fast without SM.
> ...



So you just learned the word "mofo"  How adorable.




Elite Uchiha said:


> Fodder > Prime Sarutobi + Konoha?


Unnamed/insignificant characters who are dealt off panel = Fodder
Prime Hiruzen = shit.
These are common knowledge.


> Off=paneled means something didnt happen?
> 
> Sounds like desperate attempt at discrediting Minato



Yeah pretty much. 
I know Minato doesn't have many onpanel feats but come on, we can't make an exception just because he is Minato


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

What does "mofo" mean?


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## Platypus (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What does "mofo" mean?





Thank you, Internet


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unnamed/insignificant characters who are dealt off panel = Fodder
> Prime Hiruzen = shit.
> These are common knowledge.






These "fodder" almost tilt the balance of power of the world. If the Kumo had the Hachibi and the Kyuubi, it would have been game over for the Konoha during the war. Guess our definitions of fodder are a tad bit different.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Thank you, Internet



Thanks. 



Elite Uchiha said:


> These "fodder" almost tilt the balance of power of the world. If the Kumo had the Hachibi and the Kyuubi, it would have been game over for the Konoha during the war. Guess our definitions of fodder are a tad bit different.



How people here think. 

1- If they want to defend a character that they either like or because if they hate the character s/he is against. Then, they use "We don't know" card. For example, the infamous Tobirama Vs 20 Kumo. They say "we don't know how powerful they are" "maybe they used this or that" "the 3rd Raikage might worked with the worst criminal in his village's history to take him down". Or when it's Hashirama, "Well, he may have been sick", "those in the war were surely not fodders, where does it say they are fodders?" and so on and so forth.


2- then we come to Minato and the others. In Minato's case, they are all fodders. It's true that they almost defeated Konoha, but yeah, fodders nonetheless. Or if the character not so popular like with Dai's case for example.   Yes, he can use all 8 gates, but fuck him, he is not strong because the rule only apply to Gai. Did I mention to fuck the swordsmen because them surviving against an 8th Gate user is nothing impressive? 

and so on and so forth.


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## StickaStick (Jun 5, 2015)

How do these Minato-Itachi threads still manage to draw so many replies with the information never changing lol

On-topic: Minato wins high diff.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

Well, there is nothing else really. 

If you want to put Naruto and Sasuke, they are too powerful, and people will judge purely on raw power, even tho were taken down by Kunais in the last chapter. So, it's not fun to talk about them.

Same shit with Madara (EMS) and Hashirama, most will say they defeat all characters together because all that matter is raw power and nothing else. 

Then you come to characters that are no so popular so there is not so many people care to talk about. Or characters that are have extremely limited amount of feats to do anything with like the 7 swordsmen for example. Even the Edo Kages were barely given 1 chapter to 2 chapters at most to work with.

Unfortunately, Minato was dragged down to be compared to the like of itachi/Tobirama as his "lolpeers" 
And with them beeing popular characters, and has decent amount of screen time, except for itachi who had plenty of it, and without huge ass jutsus, it's kinda actually more fun to deal with as well. 

Sad to see him being put down like this, but it can't be helped. 
Guess Kishi did great job of taking his hands off.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> These "fodder" almost tilt the balance of power of the world. If the Kumo had the Hachibi and the Kyuubi, it would have been game over for the Konoha during the war. Guess our definitions of fodder are a tad bit different.



Your gif's aren't funny m8. Do you want me to lend you some good ones ?


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## Six (Jun 5, 2015)

Itachi marks the fuck out of him with tsukuyomi.
Makes hime watch Itachi fucking Kushina for a week straight in his head, then cuts his throat.


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## Six (Jun 5, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> These "fodder" almost tilt the balance of power of the world. If the Kumo had the Hachibi and the Kyuubi, it would have been game over for the Konoha during the war. Guess our definitions of fodder are a tad bit different.



You're pathetic af if you're truly overhyping fodder.
Wipe that Minato cock sperm out of your eyes.


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What does "mofo" mean?



>>>>>>>

First Vader and now this.

Dude where do you live?


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

shaddup Rocky.


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> shaddup Rocky.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Itachi marks the fuck out of him with tsukuyomi.
> Makes hime watch Itachi fucking Kushina for a week straight in his head, then cuts his throat.



 Itachi fucks him with just Amaterasu at close-range.

 Like seriously, Minato struggled to dodge Young Ei's V2 Shunshin while Adult Ei's Shunshin which is superior due to having Bijuu Level Chakra still travelled substantially slower than Amaterasu. Minato's not dodging multiple Amaterasu via warping and if he does, he gets placed in a vulnerable position and gets sealed into Jar-land.

 Unless Minato has knowledge on Amaterasu's speed or can interpret what the chakra build-up in Itachi's MS would imply, he has no chance of evading it. Hell, KCM Naruto with danger sensing couldn't even determine whether Itachi was going to Amaterasu or Tsukyomi. Only Nagato managed to do so, but he's arguably one of the best sensors in the manga and has complete knowledge on Itachi's MS while Minato does not.

 You could argue that Minato would be able to react considering Ei did without Shunshin, but that's not likely considering Minato's implied to have Base Raikage reaction speed compared to Ei who had amped up his Shroud to the point of having chakra levels comparable to that of a Bijuu which enhanced his reaction speed substantially. That, and he had some knowledge on the Mangekyo's capabilities.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That is with the fallacious assumption that JJ Madara's reaction speed is the bar minimum reaction speed that is required to react to Minato.
> Which we know is wrong because Juubito, in both his states(mindless and the latter) didn't have any trouble reacting to KCM Minato(which should be alot faster than his base version).
> 
> When you prove to me that base Minato(or sage Minato) can move too fast for the sharingan to see, then I'll accept that Itachi can't react to him.



SM Minato, you basically said Itachi can react to SM Minato. 

The proof should be on your end. Juubi Jinchuriki have proved to be the exceptions on being the ones who can react to an enhanced Minato like that. Other characters have jutsu whose nature allows them to react.

You're claiming Itachi's Susanoo activation is enough to catch a enhanced Minato. Also read my post, I was somewhat open to the idea that he could react to a base Minato... but your notion that he can react in that scenario to an enhanced Minato is just plain baseless.



> So you just learned the word "mofo"  How adorable.



It felt appropriate. 

Though you didn't say my point was wrong. :ho


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2015)

What does SM Minato have in comparison to SM Kabuto in terms of reflexes?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> What does SM Minato have in comparison to SM Kabuto in terms of reflexes?



Base Minato's reflexes are superior to base Kabuto's. It stands to reason that if SM allowed Kabuto's reflexes to drastically improve, then Minato's already superior reflexes would also improve with SM.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Base Minato's reflexes are superior to base Kabuto's. It stands to reason that if SM allowed Kabuto's reflexes to drastically improve, then Minato's already superior reflexes would also improve with SM.



 It actually doesn't as it relies more on the person's quality and chakra reserves which Base Kabuto is arguably superior in due to naturally having Jugo's, the Sound 4, Karin, Suigetsu's, and even Orochimaru's Cells implying that his reflexes would be far superior in Base simply because the results of his Chakra being enhanced by Sage Mode would be greater. 

 Base Minato's reflexes being superior doesn't seem convincing considering Base Kabuto is already a Kage level ninja himself and Base Minato's reaction speed is only comparable to Base Ei's. I wouldn't be doubtful if SM Kabuto is more reflexive than SM Minato or at least comparable. Though to be honest, based on feats alone, I wouldn't be surprised if Kabuto's Sage Sensing was superior to Minato's as it seemed to have more of an impact on his abilities compared to Minato's and Minato relies on high reflexes if he wants to achieve a successful offensive maneuver after a Hiraishin warp.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It actually doesn't as it relies more on the person's quality and chakra reserves which Base Kabuto is arguably superior in due to naturally having Jugo's, the Sound 4, Karin, Suigetsu's, and even Orochimaru's Cells implying that his reflexes would be far superior in Base simply because the results of his Chakra being enhanced by Sage Mode would be greater.



The extra DNA didn't improve Kabuto's reflexes. Orochimaru's chakra didn't improve Sasuke's reflexes.

The chakra reserves have no bearing on one's physical speed.



> Base Minato's reflexes being superior doesn't seem convincing considering Base Kabuto is already a Kage level ninja himself and Base Minato's reaction speed is only comparable to Base Ei's. I wouldn't be doubtful if SM Kabuto is more reflexive than SM Minato or at least comparable. Though to be honest, based on feats alone, I wouldn't be surprised if Kabuto's Sage Sensing was superior to Minato's as it seemed to have more of an impact on his abilities compared to Minato's and Minato relies on high reflexes if he wants to achieve a successful offensive maneuver after a Hiraishin warp.



Base Minato's speed is comparable to base A. But both have speed superior to Kabuto, there's a reason they're both famous for their speed. Minato is able to slightly react to a shrouded A, hence the Hiraishin possibility in the flashback. That famed speed could be drastically enhanced with SM.

I'm not talking about sage sensing, I'm talking about the impact SM would have on Minato's reflexes. Minato already has insane base reflexes; SM rapidly increases those. That's why I'm sceptical to the notion that Itachi can suddenly react to that.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your gif's aren't funny m8. Do you want me to lend you some good ones ?





My gifs aren't meant to be funny. They represent my facial expressions at the time of reading a quoted post. But please, do lend me some good ones. Im sure you have accumulated plenty over your extensive time on NF with nearly quadruple my posts . Teach me how you find so much time in your day? 



Law Trafalgar said:


> You're pathetic af if you're truly overhyping fodder.
> Wipe that Minato cock sperm out of your eyes.



Fodder don't mess with a whole village + Prime Sarutobi and get away with it. Moreover, it should be noted I'm a Itachi fan not a Minato fan. But.....Minato's sperm cells did produce the strongest being ever, Naruto 



NarutoX28 said:


> What does SM Minato have in comparison to SM Kabuto in terms of reflexes?



SM Kabuto is slower than Jiraiya, who is far slower than base Minato. Itachi could barely react to Kabuto


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The extra DNA didn't improve Kabuto's reflexes. Orochimaru's chakra didn't improve Sasuke's reflexes.
> 
> The chakra reserves have no bearing on one's physical speed.



 It actually does. Enhancing one's quality of chakra alone provides a massive boost to the user as shown with Base Kabuto. Chakra consists of 2 primary components with the physical attribute being one of them, so it does have a bearing on one's physical speed. 





> Base Minato's speed is comparable to base A. But both have speed superior to Kabuto, there's a reason they're both famous for their speed. Minato is able to slightly react to a shrouded A, hence the Hiraishin possibility in the flashback. That famed speed could be drastically enhanced with SM.



 Part 1 Kabuto already was a genius in terms of reflexes, being compared to Part 1 Base Kakashi is still no joke. Combine that with the fact that he received notable improvements during the 3 Year Gap implies he had fairly high reflexes. That's excluding the boosts he received with Orochimaru alone which shown that Kabuto managed to far surpass what Orochimaru was capable of and that guy managed to evade and land a direct hit on KN4 Naruto who's relatively fast.

 But even then, the main point that I had to offer was his superior quality of chakra and reserves which would imply that the effects he'd receive from Sage Mode would be far greater as Natural Energy molding around stronger Chakra would obviously yield superior results.



> I'm not talking about sage sensing, I'm talking about the impact SM would have on Minato's reflexes. Minato already has insane base reflexes; SM rapidly increases those. That's why I'm sceptical to the notion that Itachi can suddenly react to that.



 Sage Sensing enhance's one's reflexes, so yes, we actually should take that into consideration.

 Great, SM rapidly enhances his reflexes yet that has an even greater effect on Kabuto as I stated above. Even then, we also have to take into consideration that Sage Sensing has shown to have given Kabuto far superior results compared to Minato in terms of reflexes and Sage Sensing is the "bulk" of the increase that Senjutsu has on one's reflexes.

 Edit: ^ SM Kabuto slower than Jiraiya? I'm convinced ....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It actually does. Enhancing one's quality of chakra alone provides a massive boost to the user as shown with Base Kabuto. Chakra consists of 2 primary components with the physical attribute being one of them, so it does have a bearing on one's physical speed.




Base Kabuto didn't show that.




> Part 1 Kabuto already was a genius in terms of reflexes, being compared to Part 1 Base Kakashi is still no joke. Combine that with the fact that he received notable improvements during the 3 Year Gap implies he had fairly high reflexes. That's excluding the boosts he received with Orochimaru alone which shown that Kabuto managed to far surpass what Orochimaru was capable of and that guy managed to evade and land a direct hit on KN4 Naruto who's relatively fast.
> 
> But even then, the main point that I had to offer was his superior quality of chakra and reserves which would imply that the effects he'd receive from Sage Mode would be far greater as Natural Energy molding around stronger Chakra would obviously yield superior results.



It was just said he was around Kakashi's level, nothing about him being a genius with reflexes. 

Enhanced chakra might have implications for enhanced physical and mental capabilities... but insofar that it takes Kabuto above Minato? That takes some serious proving. Minato and A's speed were famous in spite of Hashirama and Madara's insanely superior chakra influencing their physical speed... there's probably an element you're underestimating.



> Sage Sensing enhance's one's reflexes, so yes, we actually should take that into consideration.
> 
> Great, SM rapidly enhances his reflexes yet that has an even greater effect on Kabuto as I stated above. Even then, we also have to take into consideration that Sage Sensing has shown to have given Kabuto far superior results compared to Minato in terms of reflexes and Sage Sensing is the "bulk" of the increase that Senjutsu has on one's reflexes.
> 
> Edit: ^ SM Kabuto slower than Jiraiya? I'm convinced ....



SM sensing is like Sharingan prediction: a tool which is only helpful if the user themselves can react to a threat. But that's something SM Minato would also have, so we can eliminate that and focus just on how SM enhances their base speeds. The latter is more appropriate as this is the main discussion point. 


Be precise with which Minato you're referring to; if you say base, then that has serious implications for what I was talking about initially.


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## Six (Jun 5, 2015)




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## Icegaze (Jun 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Itachi fucks him with just Amaterasu at close-range.
> 
> Like seriously, Minato struggled to dodge Young Ei's V2 Shunshin while Adult Ei's Shunshin which is superior due to having Bijuu Level Chakra still travelled substantially slower than Amaterasu. Minato's not dodging multiple Amaterasu via warping and if he does, he gets placed in a vulnerable position and gets sealed into Jar-land.
> 
> ...



 u do know he can wrap out of amaterasu even after it hits right


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u do know he can wrap out of amaterasu even after it hits right



 Sure he can and Itachi would sure as hell anticipate that.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u do know he can wrap out of amaterasu even after it hits right



That depends on the strength (chakra put into) of the Amaterasu used. An Amaterasu that doesn't burn clothes (Sasuke) and one that instantly incinerates fireproof flesh (Itachi) are different beasts.

The two times we saw Itachi's Amaterasu land while alive, it ate away fireproof toad innards and fireproof CS2 wings in an instant. Sasuke _can_ make his strong, but he doesn't. (Plot.)

Just like a 72-hour Tsukuyomi (Itachi) and a 2-second Tsukuyomi (Sasuke) are different beasts. You can't just pick Sasuke's weaker usages and then nerf Itachi's feats, bro.​


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That depends on the strength (chakra put into) of the Amaterasu used. An Amaterasu that doesn't burn clothes (Sasuke) and one that instantly incinerates fireproof flesh (Itachi) are different beasts.
> 
> The two times we saw Itachi's Amaterasu land while alive, it ate away fireproof toad innards and fireproof CS2 wings in an instant. Sasuke _can_ make his strong, but he doesn't. (Plot.)
> 
> Just like a 72-hour Tsukuyomi (Itachi) and a 2-second Tsukuyomi (Sasuke) are different beasts. You can't just pick Sasuke's weaker usages and then nerf Itachi's feats, bro.​



 Then he's going to argue that Obito managed to warp out of it despite half his body being made of Hashi's Cells or that Karin survived Amaterasu despite having high regenerative properties to begin with.


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## Trojan (Jun 6, 2015)

It's refreshing to see that it's a tie between Tobirama and itachi, but Minato is the one leading. 
I guess people have some common sense.


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## KamiKira (Jun 6, 2015)

Itachi wins against base minato. Tskuyomi would be an instant rape unless minato has gamabunta on his side who can break him out of it, but the damage would still be there since the tsukiyomi user can control the time inside the genjustu.However BM minato low diffs, that is not even debatable.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Then he's going to argue that Obito managed to warp out of it despite half his body being made of Hashi's Cells or that Karin survived Amaterasu despite having high regenerative properties to begin with.



Karin survived fledgling flames, which aren't in the same ballpark. Obito was hit on the Zetsu-side of his body, which we saw from his fight from Torune, he can quickly detach and replace.

And as a side note, Itachi's Amaterasu-trap was designed to trigger the moment Sasuke saw Obito's Kamui-eye. So that eye should've been burned. But Sasuke plot-shifted his gaze to Obito's shoulder.

​


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Karin survived fledgling flames, which aren't in the same ballpark. Obito was hit on the Zetsu-side of his body, which we saw from his fight from Torune, he can quickly detach and replace.
> 
> And as a side note, Itachi's Amaterasu-trap was designed to trigger the moment Sasuke saw Obito's Kamui-eye. So that eye should've been burned. But Sasuke plot-shifted his gaze to Obito's shoulder.
> 
> ​



 I don't find either of the potential arguments I brought up as a means to imply that Amaterasu can't burn through Minato's flesh.

 As I said before, A huge portion of Obito's body was composed of Hashirama's Cells and has regenerative properties and Karin as you said, was hit by a minuscule amount of flames and has regenerative properties to begin with as well. Minato's not comparable to these guys and has no feats to suggest he's more resilient than either of them, so Amaterasu burns him regardless.

 If he does manage a Hiraishin warp, Itachi simply perceives where he'll warp and Minato eventually dies due to being placed in a vulnerable position.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Base Kabuto didn't show that.



 So him having techniques that far surpassed Orochimaru's version of them along with the fact that Sasuke compared him to Orochimaru doesn't mean anything? The fact that the Byakugan detected Kabuto's Chakra being influenced by Orochimaru implies that he had a major boost in the quality of his Chakra and his Reserves as he managed to handle Sage Mode perfectly.




> It was just said he was around Kakashi's level, nothing about him being a genius with reflexes.



 A CQC Fighter being around Kakashi's Level who is also a well renowned CQC fighter in Base implies Kabuto's reflexes are comparable to Kakashi's as both are dominant in Taijutsu and CQC techniques. It's as simple as that.



> Enhanced chakra might have implications for enhanced physical and mental capabilities... but insofar that it takes Kabuto above Minato? That takes some serious proving. Minato and A's speed were famous in spite of Hashirama and Madara's insanely superior chakra influencing their physical speed... there's probably an element you're underestimating.



 Hashirama and Minato cannot surpass Minato's level of speed due to their Hiraishin.

 Hashirama and Madara simply had more things going for them other than their speed and it's not like people were around during Hashirama and Madara's fight once the extent of their powers began to show. 

 Hashirama and Madara both displayed impressive levels of speed that Ei has not shown, both which includes Hashirama out-maneuvering Madara's Kyuubisano'o and TBB and EMS Madara managed to compete with Base Hashirama's speed. They clearly had very high levels of speed.




> SM sensing is like Sharingan prediction: a tool which is only helpful if the user themselves can react to a threat. But that's something SM Minato would also have, so we can eliminate that and focus just on how SM enhances their base speeds. The latter is more appropriate as this is the main discussion point.



 Precognition is such a huge boost and you can't deny that it doesn't have a huge impact on one's reflexes. It's what allowed 3T Sasuke to dominate KN0 Naruto and even react KN1 Naruto's attacks despite being blitzed by KN0 Naruto with his 2T activated.

 SM Minato hasn't displayed feats of having Sage Sensing comparable to SM Kabuto's and Kabuto's Sage Sensing was hyped up to have a huge impact on his own reflexes.

 As I said before, Base Kabuto has a higher quality of chakra, so the effects of Natural Energy on his own chakra would enhance his Chakra to greater levels compared to Minato which would result in higher speed.


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## StickaStick (Jun 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Karin survived fledgling flames, which aren't in the same ballpark. Obito was hit on the Zetsu-side of his body, which we saw from his fight from Torune, he can quickly detach and replace.
> 
> And as a side note, Itachi's Amaterasu-trap was designed to trigger the moment Sasuke saw Obito's Kamui-eye. So that eye should've been burned. But Sasuke plot-shifted his gaze to Obito's shoulder.
> 
> ​


Not sure if you're serious (because of the emoticon), but actually going panel-by-panel it's pretty obvious that Obito noticed Sasuke's eye bleeding (indicating MS tech) and shifted himself. Sasuke never changed his gaze.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If he does manage a Hiraishin warp, Itachi simply perceives where he'll warp and Minato eventually dies due to being placed in a vulnerable position.



It perceives his movements not warping.



NarutoX28 said:


> So him having techniques that far surpassed Orochimaru's version of them along with the fact that Sasuke compared him to Orochimaru doesn't mean anything? The fact that the Byakugan detected Kabuto's Chakra being influenced by Orochimaru implies that he had a major boost in the quality of his Chakra and his Reserves as he managed to handle Sage Mode perfectly.



It just means that Kabuto had stronger techniques and some benefits from the extra cells.
We need to believe that Orochimaru's physical capabilities are so much more superior to Kabuto's for us to assume his chakra will generate the effect you're saying it'll generate. Or the chakra just suggests that the quality of Kabuto's jutsu would change, nothing about his physical attributes.




> A CQC Fighter being around Kakashi's Level who is also a well renowned CQC fighter in Base implies Kabuto's reflexes are comparable to Kakashi's as both are dominant in Taijutsu and CQC techniques. It's as simple as that.



Or it just implies what the statement said: Kabuto is on Kakashi's level. That's really all that was said. No implications about reflexes or what not. It just means Kabuto's skills set put him on par with Kakashi's.



> Hashirama and Minato cannot surpass Minato's level of speed due to their Hiraishin.
> 
> Hashirama and Madara simply had more things going for them other than their speed and it's not like people were around during Hashirama and Madara's fight once the extent of their powers began to show.
> 
> Hashirama and Madara both displayed impressive levels of speed that Ei has not shown, both which includes Hashirama out-maneuvering Madara's Kyuubisano'o and TBB and EMS Madara managed to compete with Base Hashirama's speed. They clearly had very high levels of speed.



They weren't famed for their speed unlike A and Minato. If your chakra theory was correct, those two should've been famous in everything from strength and speed to their powerful jutsu. However it seems like it wasn't that simple.

Ei was outspeeding a Bijuu too, the Hachibi. Minato was also using his speed well against a Bijuu. Hashirama wasn't too shabby. But yet the manga has us believe that the former two's speed are famed and emphasized and Hashirama's was not. 

That signals that Minato and Ei are above those that came before them, which completely goes against your chakra hypothesis.



> Precognition is such a huge boost and you can't deny that it doesn't have a huge impact on one's reflexes. It's what allowed 3T Sasuke to dominate KN0 Naruto and even react KN1 Naruto's attacks despite being blitzed by KN0 Naruto with his 2T activated.
> 
> SM Minato hasn't displayed feats of having Sage Sensing comparable to SM Kabuto's and Kabuto's Sage Sensing was hyped up to have a huge impact on his own reflexes.
> 
> As I said before, Base Kabuto has a higher quality of chakra, so the effects of Natural Energy on his own chakra would enhance his Chakra to greater levels compared to Minato which would result in higher speed.



Of course, but that sage precog is something both parties would have. So it comes down to whose faster, SM Kabuto or SM Minato. Manga would say the latter because nothing meaningful supports the claims you've made about the former.

SM Minato hasn't displayed the feats, but we know SM and how it operates on a basic level. Kabuto's SM sensing, to be honest, was no different to Naruto's. It is all the same thing. Kabuto's wasn't radically different.

Higher chakra quality just means higher jutsu quality, not superior physical capabilities. 

If you want to play the feats game, Kabuto has shown no speed comparable to Minato, ever. So it would stand to reason that their difference in speed would remain if they went in SM.


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 7, 2015)

Minato without Hiraishin can't blitz Itachi, and that's a fact.

Link removed
Link removed

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Itachi's lot faster than that Sasuke MS, I do not know why are u losing ur time comparing them. Bee fucked Sasuke pretty easily and he didn't do a scratch on Itachi: Link removed

Let's see some feats:

First off, before saying "Genjutsu doesn't work", u make me laught. Look this:

Link removed

After falling in one Genjutsu, first u need to indentify him and then u can proceed using the chakra dissipation to dispell it. However, sometimes it's impossible to perceive that ur in a genjutsu because he doesn't change almost anything of the reality.

Also, Itachi has the ability to use genjutsu just by moving one hand, finger, looking eye-to-eye, using crows... And Minato has 0 feats at fighting Genjutsu. It's hard to put him under one? Yes. Is it impossible? Nop. 

Itachi has speed feats to fight Minato without Hiraishin, has inteligence (and he is wise than Minato), Genjutsu feats to put Minato under one without him noticing for some little time (Danzou broke a Ocular Genjutsu stronger than that but he didn't break that one because of the timming and type and he had Shisui Sharingan > more feats than Minato on genjutsu), Susano'o who can defend him from every attack, and he loses on.. Stamina.

Itachi's good with weapons, if Minato throws a Kunai right on front of him, he will possibly counter it like he did against Sasuke. 

Itachi seals are too fast even for someone with Sharingan to read. (We are talking about READ).

Itachi has a lot of chances of putting Minato in a Genjutsu and win this fight, but he also has a lot of chances of losing this because of his lack of stamina. 

Minato has 0 chances to speed blitz him without hiraishin, and since has knowledge about the yellow flash, susano'o protects him from every attack.

It's a hard fight for both of them, Itachi chances are on Genjutsu and Minato chances are on Stamina.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2015)

Your opinion is not a fact. Just saying.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 7, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Minato without Hiraishin can't blitz Itachi, and that's a fact.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



10/10
#rekt


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 7, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Your opinion is not a fact. Just saying.



U've reason. However, based on the manga, there's nothing u can pull out that can counter my arguments.

Like I said before, it is not my fault that Kishimoto developed some love with Itachi (as a character) and made him one of the strongests ninja in Naruto. Even when he had no shown feats, Kishimoto said it himself (using other characters) refering him as one of the strongests and best shinobis.

But, in this fight (between Minato and Itachi), there's no need to use what Kishimoto said but what he shown. Itachi can fight on pair with KM1 Naruto who dodged Kira A who got dodged by Minato WITH HIRAISHIN. Minato natural speed and reflexes might be greater than Itachi's (little difference, from what the manga had shown) but Itachi has Mangekyou Sharingan to put them on pair (just like he was on pair with Naruto KM1).

And since has knowledge of Minato being the "Yellow Flash" he just needs to use the lvl1 Susano'o to defend himself of every attack that Minato can pull out. Minato can teleport out Susano'o? Yes, but do u really think that Itachi was going to let him do that? It's the same than believe that Itachi can destroy every Kunai that Minato has, but that's impossible since Minato isn't going to let him do that.

The only chance that Minato had to fight Genjutsu was the sensoring ability. But how good are Minato sensor feats? He was fighting Obito/Black Zetsu and if it wasn't for Kurama he hasn't noted that Naruto had lost his half Kurama. 

Like I said, Itachi Genjutsu vs Minato Stamina. Since Minato lacks on feats on Genjutsu, I would say that Itachi wins. However, the other way around can happen too, since Minato's inteligent enough to know that he can't look in Itachi's eyes and that Itachi's a genjutsu user so he must use the sensor ability everytime. And, in that case, I would say that Minato wins.

Minato lacks in feats because he never fought a TRUE Genjutsu user (the type of ninja that uses Genjutsu every fight, like Itachi). He fought UCHIHAS. Only Shisui had feats that can be compared with Itachi's, following Ao words.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That depends on the strength (chakra put into) of the Amaterasu used. An Amaterasu that doesn't burn clothes (Sasuke) and one that instantly incinerates fireproof flesh (Itachi) are different beasts.
> 
> The two times we saw Itachi's Amaterasu land while alive, it ate away fireproof toad innards and fireproof CS2 wings in an instant. Sasuke _can_ make his strong, but he doesn't. (Plot.)
> 
> Just like a 72-hour Tsukuyomi (Itachi) and a 2-second Tsukuyomi (Sasuke) are different beasts. You can't just pick Sasuke's weaker usages and then nerf Itachi's feats, bro.​



Your right 
I can however say someone slower than Minato side stepped amaterasu and another even slower was able to out run it for a short while 

all minato need to is flick a kunai and itachi wont be able to follow 

this is the same guy who was able to get his marks close to juubito. Now before you say juubito didn't care, he knew all too well about hirashin to not 

advantages of juubito over itachi

- straight line MS (better for tracking movement)
- rinnegan evolved EMS from madara no less
- hashiarama DNA
- sage sensing 

Yet a guy like that couldn't avoid marks getting close to him

Anyway u slice it, one has to really have a biased view to assume amaterasu ever makes contact

@NarutoX28 you are right obito is more durable than minato which allowed for him to be hit then use kamui. Sadly hirashin>>>>>>>>kamui in speed and by a nasty margin. so all minato need to is think and he is some where else 

there isn't any scenario I can think of where amaterasu lands. much less put minato in difficulty

the guy escaped kamui while it was already happening


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2015)

> U've reason. However, based on the manga, there's nothing u can pull out that can counter my arguments.


Here goes then. 


> [=pluuuuffff;53744712]Minato without Hiraishin can't blitz Itachi, and that's a fact.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


You're wasting everyone's time here as Naruto was not using his speed, so that's irrelevant to put
him using his full speed and compare itachi to that. You have done a good job of misleading and fabrication tho.  


> Let's see some feats:
> 
> First off, before saying "Genjutsu doesn't work", u make me laught. Look this:
> 
> ...


You do know that Danzo is neither a sensor, nor is he fast as Minato either right? And yet, he was still
able to stop Sasuke with his seals. So, thinking a Genjutsu is an automatic win is what should makes you laugh because it IS laughable. 


> Also, Itachi has the ability to use genjutsu just by moving one hand, finger, looking eye-to-eye, using crows... And Minato has 0 feats at fighting Genjutsu. It's hard to put him under one? Yes. Is it impossible? Nop.


If it was not hard, then obito would have done so. Minato was never in a situation where he has to deal with genjutsu directly, so why would he do so? The only time a genjutsu was used he destroyed it with his contract seal with out effort. 



> Itachi has speed feats to fight Minato without Hiraishin,



His speed feats does not come close. 


> has inteligence (and he is wise than Minato),


any proof for that? Because his decisions were almost always dumb as fuck. 
Or are you passing your opinion as fact again? 


> Genjutsu feats to put Minato under one without him noticing for some little time (Danzou broke a Ocular Genjutsu stronger than that but he didn't break that one because of the timming and type and he had Shisui Sharingan > more feats than Minato on genjutsu), Susano'o who can defend him from every attack, and he loses on.. Stamina.


Or Minato's speed to put his mark and speedblitze him without noticing like obito and A.  

- Susanoo is useless as Minato can teleport him. Get's your facts straight. 


> Itachi's good with weapons, if Minato throws a Kunai right on front of him, he will possibly counter it like he did against Sasuke.


Except Minato is far faster than him. Minato can throw Kunais even before Kakashi could use Kamui. 




> Itachi seals are too fast even for someone with Sharingan to read. (We are talking about READ).


And? Minato does not even need to use seals.  


> Itachi has a lot of chances of putting Minato in a Genjutsu and win this fight, but he also has a lot of chances of losing this because of his lack of stamina.


No, he does not. Minato is much faster, has clones, is a sensor, smarter and wiser than itachi by far. 



> Minato has 0 chances to speed blitz him without hiraishin, and since has knowledge about the yellow flash, susano'o protects him from every attack.


And from where did you pull out that 0 exactly? I don't remember Minato having problems which much faster opponents.  




> It's a hard fight for both of them, Itachi chances are on Genjutsu and Minato chances are on Stamina.



lol, no. Genjutsu argument is only itachi's fans, which obviously has nothing to do with the manga.
We have already seen how those MS users were kissing the ground when puts against FTG users. 
None of that Genjutsu nonsense comes in as a factor, and don't try to say that itachi is the only Genjutsu user to have ever existed in the uchiha clan.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

So honestly this is how I see it going, NarutoX28 and strat can you tell me whats wrong with my scenario 

First off I imagine minato throws a kunai and it comes close to itachi

Why?

Reason 1: because minato is the same guy who got his kunai close juubito and juudara. Both of whom know of hirashin. Juubito especially considering it trolled him in their first encounter and was used to split his neck open. 

Reason 2: I assume minato starts this way because more often than not he starts with throwing 1 kunai at the enemy. So I am not one to think off the bat he will throw 30 kunai. 

The only reason that happens is if itachi plays the deflecting kunai game. 

Now I do not believe itachi got the speed or reflexes to block minato kunai and still attempt genjutsu or any other bag of tricks

So at this point I assume 

Minato gets in close with a rasengan and itachi blocks with susanoo

From this point on, amaterasu and tsukyomi will basically not be landing since minato can always get within a 360 degree angle 5m away from itachi at any given point and for the lolz 

note the guy in base reacted to guodama you know the same thing that required kmaui speed be doubled to allow obito to escape juudara. Now kamui speed frankly has been more impressive than anything related to speed that itachi has in his arsenal 

Minato realizes he cannot breach itachi suanoo and drops bunta

Good technique to break itachi lower forms of susanoo. And also provides minato with a giant moveable jumping tag always. Now itachi can troll bunta, however minato can counter itachi genjutsu attempt like he did against obito

Itachi will not waste chakra or time using higher end techniques against a summon and he should not 

While itachi can put up a very good fight. He lacks stamina and his jutsu drain him

Sadly he cannot keep up. minato simply need to keep coming at him and eventually. an already marked itachi from their first exchange dies horribly if he cannot keep susanoo up. 

that is his saving grace. here

Juubito got hit by Sm Naruto who is 3 tiers or more below him thanks to being marked. anyone assuming itachi can react after being marked is fooling themselves


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 7, 2015)

Looks like Minato swept Itachi under the rug for the 100th thread in the past decade again 

Thread should have been over when Hussain posted Itachi admitting inferiority to Jiraiya.

Itachi's words > your opinions.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2015)

Lies, Lies everywhere.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 7, 2015)

I wish the poll was public so we could see the pro-minato dupes


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 7, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Minato without Hiraishin can't blitz Itachi, and that's a fact.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



Now... you realise the pages you cited don't say what you claim they said.

The first 4 links: Naruto dodged A, that's a big feat hence characters cite it. The Naruto actually saw Itachi and reacted after the fire jutsu was dealt with, not that significant so no-one really made a big deal out of it. 
So the points you made based on those four links just falls apart from there.

The Genjutsu argument, like just about every Itachi Genjutsu argument made in this threat, is just not accurate. 
Look at the whole explanation, not just one page. The whole thing changes the context. Tobi cited Danzo's *exact* quote on why Tsukuyomi is better than normal Genjutsu (the one people mistake - purposely or not is another debate - for Danzo comparing Itachi and Sasuke's Genjutsu; Danzo compared Tsukuyomi vs Genjutsu). Meaning Sasuke used Tsukuyomi to warp Danzo's perception of time, that's why you see Sasuke's Tsukuyomi eye emphasized when he clashed with Danzo.
That is also why you see Sasuke's Tsukuyomi eye shown after Danzo wonders why Izanami failed which is followed by Tobi answering that question - the link -  with Danzo's Tsukuyomi vs Genjutsu quote (in case somehow you assume that wasn't comparing Tsukuyomi vs normal Genjutsu, note Danzo commented on normal Genjutsu much earlier) from much earlier. Sasuke's Tsukuyomi eye was emphasized again, twice, in the page; note the inverted panels which show up during the whole explanation. Like Itachi, nothing happened to Sasuke's eyes when the Tsukuyomi successfully worked... but also like Itachi, there was a need to hold the eye when the illusion was broken.

So really, it fails because Tobi was carrying on the explanation on why Tsukuyomi is superior to use against foes than normal Genjutsu. Now, as Itachi showed, Tsukuyomi an be a powerful hitter or a simple illusion. Sasuke showed the former on Bee and the latter on Danzo in the fight you're trying to use to support normal Genjutsu. 

Now if you want to argue that using a low powered Tsukuyomi, Itachi could alter Minato's perception of time to influence the battle, that's more plausible as it works with what the manga's shown. However using Tsukuyomi feats to support normal Genjutsu isn't going to cut it due to that unique time feature Tsukuyomi has.

The Itachi Genjutsu arguments would've been stronger if his Genjutsu quality was on par with EMS Madara, EMS Sasuke or even MS Obito.


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2015)

@Munboy 

sasuke does not have tskuyomi. Inverted panels isn't enough to suggest it

do provide a panel where kishi mentions sasuke using tskuyomi 

Also sasuke held his eye when he genjutsu'd C despite it clearly not being tskuyomi since he had his sharingan activated and not MS

he also holds his eye when he genjutsu the kumo fodder despite using his amaterasu eye. 


*sasuke did not in any slight way alter danzo perception of time. he simply made danzo believe he had an eye open, since danzo didn't exactly know when his eyes ran out. Sasuke having tskuyomi is laughable fan fic, an idea that only you have*

On another note Strat or any other decent pro itachi poster (think you the only one really)

Why do you believe genjutsu will have any impact on this match?

Advantages minato has over genjutsu

1) he is a sensor- Karin has already implied being a sensor means you will be able to know when your chakra is being tampered with

2) usage of clones. regardless of what anyone can claim if clones are immune or not, genjutsu on the clone has no effect on the original 

3) Speed has already been implied by A to be a decent counter to sharigan genjutsu which btw would be faster than itachi other forms of genjutsu 

4) Sage mode- further improving his sensing skills

5) Only tskuyomi effect is hyped as instant or on the same level as things such as kamui. Now other genjutsu take much longer to have any effect, so why should these even land on someone who is operating at minato level of speed? Can anyone logically tell me why itachi should be able to flick his cape or point at minato before minato moves? 

itachi 1 advantage is 

he was hyped to be able to genjutsu even sensors without them noticing. However the hype came from Ao, who wasn't talking about himself directly but his featless fodder squad

no reason to believe they are better sensors than minato who is a sensor himself and has sage mode

So in short this thread could be done 100 more times the poll will remain the same regardless of how many pro itachi dupe accounts


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Munboy
> 
> sasuke does not have tskuyomi. Inverted panels isn't enough to suggest it



Inverted panels, plus the opposite eye to Amaterasu plus the effects shown by that illusion indicate Tsukuyomi. That also includes databooks 2 and 3.



> do provide a panel where kishi mentions sasuke using tskuyomi



So you want me to ignore the databooks and the effects which are exactly like Tsukuyomi, just because of a name. Should I say that Sasuke doesn't use Amenojikara because it isn't a named jutsu? Or that Obito never used Gedo Dama because they were never named by him?



> Also sasuke held his eye when he genjutsu'd C despite it clearly not being tskuyomi since he had his sharingan activated and not MS
> 
> he also holds his eye when he genjutsu the kumo fodder despite using his amaterasu eye.



C, he didn't even have his MS active. That was when his base Genjutsu was becoming stronger than the likes of Itachi's MS Genjutsu.



> *sasuke did not in any slight way alter danzo perception of time. he simply made danzo believe he had an eye open, since danzo didn't exactly know when his eyes ran out. Sasuke having tskuyomi is laughable fan fic, an idea that only you have*



How did he trick Danzo that Izanagi was active? Despite Danzo establishing normal Genjutsu wouldn't work on him? Why did Tobi answer his question with his own Tsukuyomi quote?

Itachi supporters only started saying Sasuke lacked Tsukuyomi because Killer B showed that non-Uchiha could break out of it. From then, the Sasuke Tsukuyomi denialist agenda was clear. 

Fanfic is ignoring the databooks and the manga indications Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. Moreover ignoring Danzo saying normal illusions won't work on him and the fact Obito used Danzo's own quote about Tsukuyomi to say why Danzo was hit.

This is the ironic thing I find when people say it is fanon to say Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. The people willing to take that stance are more than willing to *ignore* the evidence I mentioned above to support their stance. Yet considering those pieces of evidence is fanon? 

Think about it: Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi; need to ignore quite a bit to make it work. Sasuke has Tsukuyomi; work with what info we have from the manga and databooks. 

It stands to reason that the stance which requires you to ignore more (which also has an agenda attached; maintaining the Tsukuyomi is only counterable by Uchiha) is the weaker stance.


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2015)

^omg you do have a good point with the name thingy 

however I maintain sasuke never altered danzo perception of time read the panels again

sasuke simply made him believe he had an eye left, because danzo didn't know how long izanagi lasted and had to keep checking it 

if sasuke really had tskuyomi, kishi had the perfect opporutunity to illustrate it when kabuto caught them with tayuya genjutsu 

yet kishi wrote down "MS genjutsu" vs writing down tskuyomi like he did for itachi in the exact same panel 

any reason for that then?

also doesn't killer bee being able to break it go specifically against what kakashi said about partner method?

there is just as much evidence to sasuke not having tskuyomi if you think about it


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 8, 2015)

Sasuke FMS has better feats than Itachi?

I will not answer u anymore. There's no version (besides Sasuke with Rikudo Powers) that can EVEN MATCH with Itachi when we're talking about Genjutsu.

Madara? lol.  Just because he's Madara it doesn't mean that he's better than every other ninja in everything. Gai outmatchs him on Taijutsu, Itachi outmatches him when it comes to Genjutsu (what are Madara feats on Genjutsu, tell me?).

Anyawys, I respect your opinion. I don't see Minato winning if it is not because of Itachi's low stamina. And I don't see Itachi winning without Genjutsu - simple as that.


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## Six (Jun 8, 2015)

People always say that Itachi will get outlasted and then lose, as if we've ever seen that happen before.

And lol at the retarded fanfic that genjutsu won't affect sensors. Genjutsu effects everyone. Never has it been stated that a sensor is immune to genjutsu. Let's also not forget he is the only ninja capable of placing others under genjutsu right under a sensor's nose without them noticing.

Itachi makes eye contact, places him in a subtle genjutsu where nothing is out of the ordinary and cuts his throat. Hell, he'll give him a paralysis genjutsu like he did oro and restrict movements and slice him.
Fuck why not just let him rasengan himself like he almost made deidara do.
People act like it's so easy to notice you've been placed under genjutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ^omg you do have a good point with the name thingy
> 
> however I maintain sasuke never altered danzo perception of time read the panels again
> 
> sasuke simply made him believe he had an eye left, because danzo didn't know how long izanagi lasted and had to keep checking it



However very early on Danzo established normal Genjutsu wasn't going to work on him. The reason was how his perception of time wasn't affected hence his words on Tsukuyomi.

So if normal Genjutsu wasn't going to work, Tsukuyomi was. That's why there was so much focus on Sasuke's Tsukuyomi eye and why Tobi used Danzo's words on Tsukuyomi to explain why Danzo's Izanagi failed. 

There were far too many inverted panels and too much focus on Sasuke's right eye for us to ignore the Tsukuyomi point. If normal Genjutsu could be used, Sasuke would've done it much, much sooner. Except, like I mentioned: Danzo's skill makes it impossible.


> if sasuke really had tskuyomi, kishi had the perfect opporutunity to illustrate it when kabuto caught them with tayuya genjutsu
> 
> yet kishi wrote down "MS genjutsu" vs writing down tskuyomi like he did for itachi in the exact same panel
> 
> any reason for that then?



The reason is simple: it was to illustrate how strong Sasuke's Genjutsu was. As Sasuke showed what Itachi needs Tsukuyomi to achieve (note here that Itachi didn't name the jutsu, just used the relevant eye), he can do with normal Genjutsu. The same feat accomplished by Tobi, thus putting their base Genjutsu skill on par with Madara.

Basically to show the difference between Sasuke and Itachi's illusion prowess.



> also doesn't killer bee being able to break it go specifically against what kakashi said about partner method?
> 
> there is just as much evidence to sasuke not having tskuyomi if you think about it



It doesn't because Killer B _has_ a partner, technically. Though you can argue that at that time Killer B was the only perfect Jinchuriki to have ever existed, so he had his own rules: Tsukuyomi wouldn't work on him because he has a Bijuu comrade. Note how Sasuke held his eye (sign of the illusion breaking) the moment he cast it.

There's a mountain of evidence to suggest Sasuke has it actually. Ranging from the databooks, to the way that eye was shown when Sasuke first had the MS, to it being the only illusion that would work on Danzo... you can make a big case for it.



pluuuuffff said:


> Sasuke FMS has better feats than Itachi?
> 
> I will not answer u anymore. There's no version (besides Sasuke with Rikudo Powers) that can EVEN MATCH with Itachi when we're talking about Genjutsu.



It was one thing when I saw someone here attempting to compare Itachi's Susanoo activation time to Juubidara... Now here you are telling me that RINNEGAN Sasuke is the only guy who can match Itachi's ocular Genjutsu skill.



Itachi's base Genjutsu could never even rival Obito's... and you're saying it takes Rinnegan Sasuke to match Itachi...


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## Icegaze (Jun 8, 2015)

Sorry did u just equate using genjutsu on a fodder zetsu to using tskuyomi on Sm kabuto ?
Am confused 

Also Danzo already said itachi genjutsu abilities >>>sasuke's


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry did u just equate using genjutsu on a fodder zetsu to using tskuyomi on Sm kabuto ?
> Am confused



Itachi got Kabuto to do what he wanted using Tsukuyomi. Sasuke, like Obito, showed he can get a shinobi to do what he wanted with normal illusions. 



> Also Danzo already said itachi genjutsu abilities >>>sasuke's



Look again: he compared Itachi's _Tsukuyomi_ to Sasuke's _normal Genjutsu_.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi got Kabuto to do what he wanted using Tsukuyomi. Sasuke, like Obito, showed he can get a shinobi to do what he wanted with normal illusions.



Itachi was  with his base Sharingan at a younger age than when Sasuke was getting his ass neg-diffed by a weighted down Genin.

Itachi is the more intelligent brother by far, and because of that intelligence, he is more talented in all areas. Sasuke is stronger _solely_ because he was born with Indra's chakra.

You continually confuse power with skill. Sasuke, even as a Rinnegan-wielding god of Narutoverse, is not more skilled than Itachi. Only more powerful. And that's a distinction.​


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi is the more intelligent brother by far, and because of that intelligence, he is more talented in all areas.​



Wasn't Sasuke on RS's level in chakra control or something like that?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wasn't Sasuke on RS's level in chakra control or something like that?



Itachi's hype involves weaving chakra for ninjutsu so fast that the Sharingan couldn't detect it, and undetectably puppeteering huge numbers of people over vast distances.

When talking about skill and not power, those aspects of chakra control are second to none. And Itachi developed those unique talents _without_ divine moon-people handouts.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2015)

Being given the sharingan is pretty much a divine handout.


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## Six (Jun 8, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Being given the sharingan is pretty much a divine handout.



At least he didn't steal copy the second homage's jutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Being given the sharingan is pretty much a divine handout.



Not as bad as being handed the best jutsu of Tobirama/Jiraiya.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi's hype involves weaving chakra for ninjutsu so fast that the Sharingan couldn't detect it, and undetectably puppeteering huge numbers of people over vast distances.
> 
> When talking about skill and not power, those aspects of chakra control are second to none. And Itachi developed those unique talents _without_ divine moon-people handouts.​



Itachi can go fast, but I don't see how that's _better _than Sasuke shutting down all nine Biju with a glace and then later manipulating & flowing their power into a single body with precision comparable to The Sage of the Six Paths.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi can go fast, but I don't see how that's _better _than Sasuke shutting down all nine Biju with a glace and then later manipulating & flowing their power into a single body with precision comparable to The Sage of the Six Paths.



The fact that this wasn't indicated to be in any way possible for MS Sasuke makes me think this isn't a matter of skill, but of power. Do you disagree with that opinion of mine?​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi was  with his base Sharingan at a younger age than when Sasuke was getting his ass neg-diffed by a weighted down Genin.
> 
> Itachi is the more intelligent brother by far, and because of that intelligence, he is more talented in all areas. Sasuke is stronger _solely_ because he was born with Indra's chakra.
> 
> You continually confuse power with skill. Sasuke, even as a Rinnegan-wielding god of Narutoverse, is not more skilled than Itachi. Only more powerful. And that's a distinction.​



A horrible feat to discuss what's being discussed. Sasuke shut down Zetsu, Tsukuyomi style and mind controlled him, Tsukuyomi style. And you compare that to simple Genjutsu, Itachi style.

Itachi isn't overwhelmingly smarter than Sasuke, that's just something you're making up while probably distorting context. 

I don't confuse power with skill, you're simply misinterpreting manga facts again and again. In fact I don't even think you read the post properly to use the Deidara example while trying to generalise it to "S-Rank criminals". One criminal... just one.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A horrible feat to discuss what's being discussed. Sasuke shut down Zetsu, Tsukuyomi style and mind controlled him, Tsukuyomi style. And you compare that to simple Genjutsu, Itachi style.



Are you talking about this? Because that's the EMS, and Zetsu was already shut down and face down in the dirt before the genjutsu.​


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

What's the difference between skill and power?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What's the difference between skill and power?



Power is the tool attained. Skill is how well you wield the tool.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Then what Sasuke did with the Rinnegan would be classified as his skill, and it was what he did with it that was comparable to Rikudo. Naruto wouldn't have had trouble fighting off Nagato.

How Sasuke became that skilled is...unclarified.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then what Sasuke did with the Rinnegan would be classified as his skill, and it was what he did with it that was comparable to Rikudo. Naruto wouldn't have had trouble fighting off Nagato.
> 
> How Sasuke became that skilled is...unclarified.



Sasuke and Rikudo had tools at their disposal that Nagato did not, and Rikudo being Rikudo doesn't mean he's more incredibly skilled than others as opposed to more incredibly powerful.

And this isn't to say that Sasuke was unskilled. On the contrary, he's one of the most skilled ninja in the manga (he amazed Oro) and that shone brightest in his Hebi incarnation. He's just no Itachi.​


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke and Rikudo had tools at their disposal that Nagato did not, and Rikudo being Rikudo doesn't mean he's more incredibly skilled than others as opposed to more incredibly powerful.​



I'm pretty sure Rikudo's "power" comes from his skill with his tools. We've seen the Rinnegan & Senjutsu used by less skilled users (Jiraiya & Nagato) and they weren't even on the same tier list.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm pretty sure Rikudo's "power" comes from his skill with his tools. We've seen the Rinnegan & Senjutsu used by less skilled users (Jiraiya & Nagato) and they weren't even on the same tier list.



Rikudo was essentially born with the combined chakra of Indra and Asura. He was even more of a freak of nature than Hashirama, with both a body that wouldn't quit and Indra's special juice too. 

Nagato had neither of those, albeit Uzamaki juice more powerful than most (all?) non-god-tiers. And I'm pretty underwhelmed by Jiraiya's skill in general when compared to the cream of the crop.​


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Rikudo was essentially born with the combined chakra of Indra and Asura. He was even more of a freak of nature than Hashirama, with both a body that wouldn't quit and Indra's special juice too.



Being born with special power doesn't mean much unless you learn to control it. I think that was a theme in _Naruto._ 

The Indra & Asura chakra just gave him access to the tools (Senjutsu & Rinnegan). He himself still had to master them.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Being born with special power doesn't mean much unless you learn to control it..



Perhaps, but I'd say it still means much. We saw what having an unmastered 2-tomoe did for Obito against the Jonin. We saw what unmastered fox chakra did for Naruto against Haku. Etc.​


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> At least he didn't steal copy the second homage's jutsu.


Are we really resulting in these excuses now? Itachi uses shadow clones, which means he stole tobiramas jutsu as well. Less intelligent people shouldnt speak.

Theres a reason minato is the only person in history to successfully copy and master ftg, its because he has e intelligence and skill to do so. Give minato a freebie sharingan and tell me what skill is needed there. Obito the loser jumped 3 tiers up after awakening his. Lets not compare intelligence and skill to free hand outs.


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi got Kabuto to do what he wanted using Tsukuyomi. Sasuke, like Obito, showed he can get a shinobi to do what he wanted with normal illusions.
> 
> 
> 
> Look again: he compared Itachi's _Tsukuyomi_ to Sasuke's _normal Genjutsu_.



so in short you are comparing a fodder zetsu to Sm fuckign kabuto. 
just when i was taking you seriously 

also didnt sasuke use his tskuyomi eye on the cloud fodder?

 he compared itachi genjutus skill with sasuke's in general. He even called what you think is sasuke tskuyomi a short and weak genjutsu 

i feel like i am being punked here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi got Kabuto to do what he wanted using Tsukuyomi. Sasuke, like Obito, showed he can get a shinobi to do what he wanted with normal illusions.
> 
> 
> 
> Look again: he compared Itachi's _Tsukuyomi_ to Sasuke's _normal Genjutsu_.



Itachi never used Tsukiyomi on Kabuto.


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi never used Tsukiyomi on Kabuto.



True.

Itachi's right eye -> recovery - Amaterasu

Itachi's left eye -> recovery - Tsukuyomi

Every Mangekyou has independent abilities in both eyes. Itachi had Amaterasu (right) and Tsukuyomi(left), Sasuke had Enton (right eye) and Amaterasu (left eye) (not sure about Sasuke's order) and Obito Uchiha had two type of kamuis (right-eye = intangibility and low-range, left-eye = low and long-range (since Kakashi could use it to teleport himself too).

What eye did he sacrifice against Kabuto?

Link removed 

He sacrificed his left eye. 

Itachi manipulated Kabuto by using a normal Genjutsu. 

(Sorry for quoting you, it was just to prove that u were right)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> True.
> 
> Itachi's right eye -> Link removed - Amaterasu
> 
> ...



There is this general misconception that Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kabuto because Itachi mentioned his plan of using it earler.

Itachi's initial plan was to use Tsukiyomi, torture the information out of Kabuto while at the same time leaving him unconscious or semi conscious so it would be alot easier to control him. 

That plan went down the drain when Kabuto made himself immune to visual genjutsu. And at the end,  Izanami had his conscious mind trapped, so controlling him with sharingan genjutsu was easy enough. Even if he was capable of using Tsukiyomi, it would be completely redundant.


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

@Munboy

itachi did not use tskuyomi on kabuto. I did not know that 
Munboy ur argument kinda just fell on its ass. Shame!

sasuke may or may not have tskuyomi. its pretty much irrelevant to this thread

only tskuyomi acts quick enough to be an issue for minato


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 9, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> At least he didn't steal copy the second homage's jutsu.



Yes, because Hirashin was written on a scroll for only Minato to utilize. Minato learned that shit from scratch and then enhanced it beyond the legendary Senju Tobirama. This was all w/o some haxed Uchiha/Senju bloodline 

Itachi was literally gifted a bloodline without equal. If Minato was an Uchiha, he could literally solo Madara + Shodai + Naruto + Sasuke 




Strategoob said:


> Not as bad as being handed the best jutsu of Tobirama/Jiraiya.



Please show me the scroll where Minato learned Hirashin? Why was Minato the only ninja in the universe to be able to learn Hirashin and then improve it beyond the legendary Senju who defeated Izuna (stronger than Itachi) in an instant?

Moreover, at least Minato had to learn a jutsu and not just cry and gain the Sharingan  (look to Sarada, Obito, etc etc).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Are you talking about this? Because that's the EMS, and Zetsu was already shut down and face down in the dirt before the genjutsu.​



Yes, Sasuke could still accomplish with normal Genjutsu what Itachi needs Tsukuyomi yo do.

And you're comparing that to Itachi not making Deidara brain dead and obey. Sasuke deceived Deidara like that _without_ the MS.



Rocky said:


> What's the difference between skill and power?



Apparently no-one can be more skilled than Itachi. Anyone demonstrating superior feats to Itachi is simply more powerful, but not more skilled. 

Flawed, I know.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi never used Tsukiyomi on Kabuto.



You're right. 



Icegaze said:


> @Munboy
> 
> itachi did not use tskuyomi on kabuto. I did not know that
> Munboy ur argument kinda just fell on its ass. Shame!



Just that aspect. Everything else still stands. Why? It doesn't involve disregarding manga panels and databook entries.



> sasuke may or may not have tskuyomi. its pretty much irrelevant to this thread



The "may" have all the inverted panels, relevant eye shots and databook entries (as well as his awakening Susanoo after showing both jutsu) on its side. The "may not" only has ignoring everything. 

I'd stick with the side which doesn't involve ignoring. Moreover, the side which doesn't have a clear agenda for denying Sasuke's Tsukuyomi.

It is actually quite relevant. Some people wrongly believe Danzo compared Itachi and Sasuke's Genjutsu skill. He only compared Tsukuyomi (when he named Itachi) and *normal* Genjutsu (when he named Sasuke who attempted to use this).

That claim was actually used to justify Itachi's Genjutsu skill vs Minato. That's wrong as it doesn't say anything about Itachi's Genjutsu skill. All that line did was foreshadow how Sasuke would beat Danzo, by altering the latter's perception of time with Tsukuyomi to make him think Izanagi is still active.

Of course this feeds into the agenda of the Sasuke Tsukuyomi denial (which too is relevant ITT) because it shows that merely using Tsukuyomi doesn't mean instant win.



> only tskuyomi acts quick enough to be an issue for minato



Itachi is just going to waste his already little chakra reserves trying to use a jutsu which will probably never hit. The fact he'll be extra desperate to make eye contact is something Minato will pick up on.
It would be more sensible to say that Itachi will try something Sasuke did on Danzo, act normal and just use Tsukuyomi to alter Minato's perception of time i.e. trick Minato into thinking he's got an opportune time to use Hiraishin... only for him to find out his time was lagged. In a sense it might make Minato's reflexes slow enough for Itachi to keep up.

*That* is a more sensible argument as Itachi wouldn't need to act an a way which makes it blatant that he plans to end everything with eye contact. 

If Tobi had Tsukuyomi and used it on Minato, like that, prior their clash, he'd have won that fight.


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Just that aspect. Everything else still stands. Why? It doesn't involve disregarding manga panels and databook entries.



I agree with you on sasuke having tskuyomi. the inverted panels serve as enough evidence. I concede 




> The "may" have all the inverted panels, relevant eye shots and databook entries (as well as his awakening Susanoo after showing both jutsu) on its side. The "may not" only has ignoring everything.



fair enough 



> I'd stick with the side which doesn't involve ignoring. Moreover, the side which doesn't have a clear agenda for denying Sasuke's Tsukuyomi.



fair enough. 



> It is actually quite relevant. Some people wrongly believe Danzo compared Itachi and Sasuke's Genjutsu skill. He only compared Tsukuyomi (when he named Itachi) and *normal* Genjutsu (when he named Sasuke who attempted to use this).



true 



> That claim was actually used to justify Itachi's Genjutsu skill vs Minato. That's wrong as it doesn't say anything about Itachi's Genjutsu skill. All that line did was foreshadow how Sasuke would beat Danzo, by altering the latter's perception of time with Tsukuyomi to make him think Izanagi is still active.





sasuke *NEVER* altered danzo perception of time. here is the panel again. 

Itachi's eyes affected enhanced Itachi's eyes

all obito said is sasuke knew danzo had to keep checking the eye because he did not know when it closed and used a short genjutsu to trick him into believing he had an eye left

no mention of altering danzo perception of time



> Of course this feeds into the agenda of the Sasuke Tsukuyomi denial (which too is relevant ITT) because it shows that merely using Tsukuyomi doesn't mean instant win.



obito words comparing the genjutsu which fooled danzo and itachi tskuyomi 

Itachi's eyes affected enhanced Itachi's eyes

its obvious he was referring to sasuke genjutsu which worked and not the one before. why would he talk about knowing when to use it and keep going on if he was referring to something that failed

so no, sasuke tskuyomi or genjutsu prowess falls behind itachi's as stated both by obito and danzo and Ao and shikamaru dad. itachi is the one hyped for genjutsu ability 



> Itachi is just going to waste his already little chakra reserves trying to use a jutsu which will probably never hit. The fact he'll be extra desperate to make eye contact is something Minato will pick up on.
> It would be more sensible to say that Itachi will try something Sasuke did on Danzo, act normal and just use Tsukuyomi to alter Minato's perception of time i.e. trick Minato into thinking he's got an opportune time to use Hiraishin... only for him to find out his time was lagged. In a sense it might make Minato's reflexes slow enough for Itachi to keep up.



the best thing for itachi to do is suggest where minato lands via genjutsu. then again I don't even see how that would work.



> *That* is a more sensible argument as Itachi wouldn't need to act an a way which makes it blatant that he plans to end everything with eye contact.



for me minato is a good counter, he got speed and clones. eye contact is unlikely. 



> If Tobi had Tsukuyomi and used it on Minato, like that, prior their clash, he'd have won that fight.



doubtful 

@law traf 

kisame statements don't suggest at all that itachi basic genjutsu is on the same level as speed as kamui. note the time it took to control deidara into almost committing suicide, that's what I mean. not his ability to catch you but after he catches and the genjutsu does what its intended there is a time frame which allows minato freedom to escape 

hence why I said its irrelevant 

I also never suggested sensors are immune, just that from what Karin said minato would know if he is caught in genjutsu


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

Top Tier Body Flicker speed
Instantaneous Space Time Ninjutsu
Shadow Clones
Sensory Prowess
Sage sensing 

Minato has all that, how on earth is he getting caught in genjutsu. His entire moveset is anti-genjutsu. Even Hashirama doesnt have that many counters. Guess that means itachi would defeat hashirama with tsukuyomi.

Hashirama>Madara
Tobirama>Izuna
Minato>Obito

All fought powerful uchiha, genjutsu was a non factor. Only genjutsu itachi can use is izanagi and izanami. The latter only works on certain opponents (not good guys), and izangi weakens itachi and is useless against a sensor.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Top Tier Body Flicker speed
> Instantaneous Space Time Ninjutsu
> Shadow Clones
> Sensory Prowess
> ...



By looking in his eyes. How is his movies antigenjutsu?

Well, Hashirama has never gone against tsukuyomi or at least one of Itachi's caliber so we don't 
know.

Kabuto had all of that minus clones which he didn't need and space time ninjutsu.
Yes, because someone doesn't use a certain technique against you, then your immune to it.
I guess when Itachi was fighting kcm naruto and didn't use genjutsu it was because Naruto was immune to it right? Lets ignore Naruto stating to not get caught in tsukuyomi or else it would be over. But the fact that Itachi didn't use it means its useless right?

Too bad Itachi would never use izanagi because it goes against what he believe. So i don't know why you brought that up


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Simply, if Kabuto who had a 4.5 in genjutsu before enhancing it with sage mode had to blind himself to compete with Itachi then that should speak loads, yet people conveniently ignore this fact.
Minato who has not shown the slightest bit of inkling for genjutsu and who is certainly well below sage kabuto in genjutsu stats is not going to be immune to Itachi's genjutsu.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Simply, if Kabuto who had a 4.5 in genjutsu before enhancing it with sage mode had to blind himself to compete with Itachi then that should speak loads, yet people conveniently ignore this fact.
> Minato who has not shown the slightest bit of inkling for genjutsu and who is certainly well below sage kabuto in genjutsu stats is not going to be immune to Itachi's genjutsu.



Being featless in a specific area doesnt mean doesnt mean you have no skill in it. Lord have mercy on this logic. Minato has small screen time and feats, we never got the chance to see him use genjutsu. Hiwever his toads are most definitely 5s in genjutsu, so what does it matter if minato has feats here or not.

Skill in genjutsu does not equate to skill in genjutsu breaking/evasion. Honestly,your post almost gave me cancer. What is this nonsense? No one is immune to genjutsu, the ability to not get caught is whats important. No hokage is getting put under genjutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Being featless in a specific area doesnt mean doesnt mean you have no skill in it. Lord have mercy on this logic. Minato has small screen time and feats, we never got the chance to see him use genjutsu.



I'm pretty sure Itachi can use Hiraishin too. He just doesn't need it.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> By looking in his eyes. How is his movies antigenjutsu?
> 
> Well, Hashirama has never gone against tsukuyomi or at least one of Itachi's caliber so we don't
> know.
> ...



Did you seriosuly ask how his moves are anti genjutsu? Ei already affirmed that with his speed, the sharingan was no match for him. We saw how disgusted Ei was when madsra put him in genjutsu,mand look what that took, a distraction from tsunade plus madara stopping eis movements with susnoo and holding him inches away from his face just so he could make eye contact, itachi is never doing any of that to minato, not in a million years. Minato wont look directly into an uchihas eyes, as a hokage, he knows that better than most. Minato has the chakra to utilise multiple shadow clones in battle, and genjutsu doesnt work on them, so minato can attack freely with clones without worrying about eyesight. Minatos speed is too much for itachi to even keep track of. He can dance around kunai at the speed of light.

Lol, you actually make it sound like itachi has a chance against hashirama. Lol, itachi fans.

Minato has clones, superior speed and space time ninjutsu. Naruto knows all about itachi, tuskuymo wouldnt have worked this time. Kcm naruto is the one who even warned bee not to get caught by his mangekyou. So who cares if itachi used it or not, wouldnt have worked. Plus naruto wasnt even trying against itachi, he used zero ninjutsu, he was only trying to talk while defending himself. Yes naruto stated that like i said, and he didnt get caught, so whats your argument, he was jist being weary and cautions. I never said itachis genjutsu isnt dangerous, but i never said its unavoidable like itachi fans believe. The fact that minato doesnt ever need to go near itachi and can use clones, is a major advantage.and his clones can use ftg. Yeah sorry listen to the poll.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm pretty sure Itachi can use Hiraishin too. He just doesn't need it.


Jiraya was minatos teacher, so no doubt he did known some genjutsu. Jirayas had genjutsu, all though not very good at it. But the point is he did. And you can use all the sarcasm you want, my point wasnt on whether minato has genjutsu or not its that having skill in genjutsu doesnt equate to skill in avoiding/breaking genjutsu or understanding of genjutsu, which is what that guy seemed to be implying,

Minato has sage toads that use genjutsu. So essentially he does have genjutsu. No evidence whatsoever of itachi being able to use ftg, so go cry somewhere else.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Being featless in a specific area doesnt mean doesnt mean you have no skill in it. Lord have mercy on this logic. Minato has small screen time and feats, we never got the chance to see him use genjutsu. Hiwever his toads are most definitely 5s in genjutsu, so what does it matter if minato has feats here or not.
> 
> Skill in genjutsu does not equate to skill in genjutsu breaking/evasion. Honestly,your post almost gave me cancer. What is this nonsense? No one is immune to genjutsu, the ability to not get caught is whats important. *No hokage is getting put under genjutsu*.



He may be skilled in it and he may not be. However Jiraiya=ass--->Minato=???Naruto---->ass. If you go with the trend, then it's not looking good. I'm not saying that's fact because it hasn't been proven, I'm not going to make retarded leaps like you. But if you want a taste of your own medicine, we haven't seen minato placed under genjutsu. Okay, since we haven't seen him battle with ma and pa for their genjutsu then I guess it's safe to assume he can't use them for his shitty sage mode.

FYI, Itachi has had about the same screen time if not less than Minato, yet we got that he is extremely skilled in each ninja area.

His toads have 5's in genjutsu? The retarded leaps I was talking about. Unless you're talking about ma and pa then like I said, reaching. Minute's go to in protecting the leaf was Gamabunta, unless you think Gamabunta has a 5 in genjutsu. But knowing what you'll probably say, "He hasn't shown genjutsu so we don't know if he's not a 5"

Reading your posts give me HIV, nobody who has chakra within their system is immune to genjutsu and that is a fact. There is no not getting caught in Itachi's genjutsu, which is why Kabuto blinded himself  especially when all that is required is eye contact which 99% of ninja have made in some form before or during battle.

makes him superior to Uchihas
makes him superior to Uchihas
There goes you "No hokage is getting put under genjutsu theory" Does the hokage title suddenly make you impervious to genjutsu or are you saying homage level are impervious to genjutsu?  Clarify.
Because if it's the former, then you're dead wrong, A and Hiruzen were under genjutsu.
If it's the latter then Orochimaru who was a legendary ninja at the time of his defection from the leaf and one of it's most powerful ninja was definitely hokage level. He wasn't chosen because hiruzen knew about his darkness.

It's not that no Hokage is getting put under genjutsu, it's just that you're mad at the fact that Itachi can easily put damn near anyone under it just by a glance which is what pisses you off.

I told myself I wouldn't be involved in these pointless Itachi debates so don't expect a response after this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sasuke *NEVER* altered danzo perception of time. here is the panel again.
> 
> makes him superior to Uchihas
> 
> ...



makes him superior to Uchihas

Danzo: "why isn't Izanagi working?!" 
Tobi answers: [...] It's just as you said. Its no match for Itachi's Tsukuyomi which can control time."

Tobi used Danzo's line on Tsukuyomi to answer why Izanagi failed. What you provided is part of Tobi's elaboration on why. 

makes him superior to Uchihas
This pretty much told us that the only Genjutsu that would work on Danzo is Tsukuyomi. Hence Danzo commended Sasuke for being able to actually put him under an illusion from a normal Sharingan Genjutsu i.e. that generally isn't possible. 

Tobi's elaboration and the inverted panels which followed indicated Sasuke used the only illusion that would work on Danzo: Tsukuyomi. That's why you saw the panels with the MS, the particular MS eye and of course the inverted panels.



> obito words comparing the genjutsu which fooled danzo and itachi tskuyomi
> 
> makes him superior to Uchihas
> 
> ...



But Danzo pretty much established no Sharingan Genjutsu would work, except Tsukuyomi. 

Read those words and tell me how they talk about Itachi's Genjutsu prowess. If you look at them, it only refers to Itachi's Tsukuyomi vs Sasuke's normal Genjutsu. 

All Ao and Shikaku said was Itachi could control someone from a distance. Not that his Genjutsu skill was so far above others.



> the best thing for itachi to do is suggest where minato lands via genjutsu. then again I don't even see how that would work.



That involves Itachi knowing where the tags are, an incorrect guess immediately tells Minato he's in a Genjutsu. Let's not forget he's a sensor. Tsukuyomi to create a time lag would be a better option.



> for me minato is a good counter, he got speed and clones. eye contact is unlikely.



That's what I think too. But if someone wants to use the Tsukuyomi angle, that's the most plausible thing. But I don't think Itachi's Genjutsu was so great that only RINNEGAN Sasuke could rival it. That's like saying Madara and Obito's illusions don't compare.



> doubtful



That fight was determined by a split second. Tsukuyomi to alter Minato's perception of time, even by a second would've given Tobi a victory.


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 9, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Top Tier Body Flicker speed
> Instantaneous Space Time Ninjutsu
> Shadow Clones
> Sensory Prowess
> ...



Speed makes Genjutsu difficult to hit, but he isn't invulnerable.

He has Hiraishin but i've never seen Minato jumping all the fucking time that someone looks to him. Against Obito he looked right in the face.

Shadow Clones timming is it? Then, both Itachi and Kakashi are ahead on it.

Sage Sensing? He isn't using Sage Mode, he said it himself. He only did it against Madara because there was nothing more that he could do.. And, he made Gai open the 8th gate because of how bad his sage mode was.

Sensor Prowess? Two pages: Link removed
Link removed

He can't rely on it..

I love Minato, but seriously.. Even he doesn't believe on some jutsus that he has (like Sage Mode) and ur putting him as a Sage Mode user like Naruto or Kabuto.

And I don't get why some people believe that Minato is stronger than Tobirama


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 9, 2015)

Sasuke didn't use Tsukyomi against Danzo. If he had, Tobi would not have felt the need to emphasize Sasuke's skill with genjutsu that allowed him to outclass Danzo despite it being rather weak and short. While Tsukyomi is a short genjutsu, it's by no means weak and that would outright contradict how Kishimoto portrays Tsukyomi's strength.

 3

 This outright contradicts your opinion on this Munboy. The bottom panel on the left corner implies that Sasuke had used that genjutsu to gauge the length of the effect the genjutsu would have on Danzo in order to succeed. He never once manipulated Danzo's perception of time. Why would he need to? He knew that Danzo couldn't even accurately gauge how long Izanagi lasts for each eye, so Danzo himself had to double-check his eye to ensure Izanagi was activated. Sasuke knew this and took advantage of this by using a genjutsu the instant before the eye closed. Time manipulation wasn't even needed.

 And no, it was never established that the only genjutsu that would work on Danzo was Tsukyomi. Quite frankly, the panel that I presented above contradicts your theory as it was used to gauge the length of the effect Sasuke's genjutsu had on Danzo. Danzo managed to perceive it, but there was an instant where he was caught in the genjutsu. This is similar to Deidara as Deidara can perceive Sharingan Genjutsu, but depending on the user's skill with using genjutsu would affect the time it would take for Deidara to register it as a genjutsu. 

 And finally, you might want to take a look at this:

 3

 Look at the middle panel at the very bottom of the page. Sasuke's skill and perceptive capabilities surpassed Danzo because he was an Uchiha with the MS while Danzo is not and only has a 3 Tomoe Sharingan. That by default implied that Sasuke's perception was superior to Danzo and that he would always outrank Danzo in the battle of the Sharingan as implied later here:

 3

 Danzo believing he could defeat Sasuke in the battle of the eyes was false and was his downfall. Sasuke having to resort to a genjutsu that even caused Sasuke to struggle immensely with (despite having a 3T Sharingan on par with Itachi's and being connected to Itachi by blood) would not have emphasized this as no skilled ninja in Genjutsu besides Sasuke could ever hope to deal with Tsukyomi.

 Sasuke being capable of Tsukyomi is your own misinterpretation of the panels that I presented. Sasuke's MS techniques are Enton Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu. He doesn't suddenly have 3 MS techniques just because you want him to have it.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Speed makes Genjutsu difficult to hit, but he isn't invulnerable.
> 
> He has Hiraishin but i've never seen Minato jumping all the fucking time that someone looks to him. Against Obito he looked right in the face.
> 
> ...



Yep, speed makes genjtsu diffuclt to hit, like you said. And minato is the yellow flash, so speed is what you're going to get in abundance. 

When he wiped out that platoon of rock ninja, did you see how many kunai he prepared for those konoha guys to throw? There was like 100 kunai. Minato flickered between the,, wiping out that whole platoon in a near instant. Hence why the konoha guy said blink or you'll miss it. Implying it would be over very quickly. We know his super flash dance technique is about teleporting from kunai to kunai. So you dont need to see something to know it.

Minato was allowed to look into obitos eyes. Minato already established that he was controlling the nine tails. So genjutsu isnt gonna work on minato, minatos entire aim was to remove obitos genjutsu control, after which you see minato clearly avoid eye contact as he stabs hom:
3

Shadow clones isnt something kakashi and itachi can utilise effectively in battle. It uses too much chakra for people with low stamina such as them. Minato not only has enormous chakra, but his clones can teleport at will. So the confusion and versatility is unspeakable.

What did he say exactly? He said he hasnt used it much in combat. Which doesnt really matter because he managed it against juudara, so he can mange it against anyone. Sm is a technique where sometimes you are required to retreat like fukasaku said. Minato has ftg and clones, he has no problem using senjutsu. The amphibian technique also gives him long lasting sm, at this point he low diffs itachi if it reaches that stage.

He was distracted like kurama said, im sure you can read. Even kurama is a refined sensor, he was distracted too. Plus its kuramas other half, yet he didnt notice. Thats not minatos only sensing feat, when hes focused on his opponent, sensing is a breeze. In sm, its constantly active...
Orochimaru

He can rely on it, stop trying to make excuses against every single ability minato has.

Remeber jirsya? He too said his senjutsu wasnt very good. But he had an alternate method, a method any toad sage has access too. Only reason naruto couldnt is because the nine tails didnt allow it. Not that minato needs to bust out sage mode on the likes of itachi lol.

Not some people. Most people with sense. Kishi already portrayed minato as the improved version. Tobirama - former fastest ninja| Minato shunshin surpasses Tobiramas
Tobirama - inventor of ftg| Minato perfects FTG

Tobiramas 2 best traits are inferior to minato. Tobirama uses clones - so does minato, tobirama is a sensor - so is minato. Tobirama has a featless and weaker edo tensei than part 1 orochimaru| minato has an armada of toads. Tobirama has suiton| minato has rasengan and toads with suiton. Its a no brainer really. Tobirama was killed by a squad of no namers. Minatos name was feared across the world that they retreat when they see him. Obviously not the case for tobirama, who had a group of highly skilled ninja on his side ie hiruzen, danzo, kagami etc.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke didn't use Tsukyomi against Danzo. If he had, Tobi would not have felt the need to emphasize Sasuke's skill with genjutsu that allowed him to outclass Danzo despite it being rather weak and short. While Tsukyomi is a short genjutsu, it's by no means weak and that would outright contradict how Kishimoto portrays Tsukyomi's strength.
> 
> 3



Tsukuyomi is also versatile. Sasuke at that point lacked adequate chakra reserves to use a powerful Tsukuyomi. So he used a weak variant, which retained the time perception alteration. Itachi used a weak variant to break Sasuke out of Kabuto's illusion. 

Kishi portrayed Tsukuyomi as a powerful illusion which can be used at different levels. 



> This outright contradicts your opinion on this Munboy. The bottom panel on the left corner implies that Sasuke had used that genjutsu to gauge the length of the effect the genjutsu would have on Danzo in order to succeed. He never once manipulated Danzo's perception of time. Why would he need to? He knew that Danzo couldn't even accurately gauge how long Izanagi lasts for each eye, so Danzo himself had to double-check his eye to ensure Izanagi was activated. Sasuke knew this and took advantage of this by using a genjutsu the instant before the eye closed. Time manipulation wasn't even needed.



How to you explain Sasuke using only the right eye and all the inverted panels? Moreover the fact that Tobi felt the need to mention Tsukuyomi's time perception attribute to why Danzo's Izanagi failed?

Time manipulation was making Danzo think there was more time than he actually had.



> And no, it was never established that the only genjutsu that would work on Danzo was Tsukyomi. Quite frankly, the panel that I presented above contradicts your theory as it was used to gauge the length of the effect Sasuke's genjutsu had on Danzo. Danzo managed to perceive it, but there was an instant where he was caught in the genjutsu. This is similar to Deidara as Deidara can perceive Sharingan Genjutsu, but depending on the user's skill with using genjutsu would affect the time it would take for Deidara to register it as a genjutsu.



Danzo was surprised Sasuke was able to actually put him in an illusion, before he effortlessly broke the illusion. Then he goes on to imply that only a Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi would work on him because it alters time perception. 

If it was just normal Genjutsu, Kishi wouldn't have needed to add your explanation *alongside* the emphasis on the relevant eye and the inverted panels. 

Your assumption only holds if we assume Tsukuyomi *must* follow with a big toll on the user. Itachi saving Sasuke with the illusion shows that's not the case.




> Sasuke being capable of Tsukyomi is your own misinterpretation of the panels that I presented. Sasuke's MS techniques are Enton Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu. He doesn't suddenly have 3 MS techniques just because you want him to have it.



As per the databooks 2 and 3, and what we saw against Killer B (plus the instance we're talking about) Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. To assume otherwise is actually the misinterpretation. 

For instance the databook 2 said those (Uchiha with unaltered genes) with the MS would grant Tsukuyomi. Sasuke showed Tsukuyomi against Bee, which met the criteria including the one for when the illusion fails. The third databook said only those who master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi can unlock Susanoo; Sasuke used both these jutsu prior unlocking Susanoo. Susanoo was something Sasuke had before fighting the Raikage, but Kagutsuchi was something Sasuke discovered during the battle with the Gokage. 
How can Kagutsuchi have been the second eye power when he unlocked it _after_ Susanoo?

Let's not disregard facts established since part 1 and clear artwork which shows Sasuke has Tsukuyomi just because a few of us literally need it spelt out for us. That's like saying Obito never used Gedo Dama because he never named them. Despite the fact that the applications and artwork should be more than enough evidence to indicate that he has them. 
Of course, as I pointed out: there is an agenda to deny Sasuke has Tsukuyomi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsukuyomi is also versatile. Sasuke at that point lacked adequate chakra reserves to use a powerful Tsukuyomi. So he used a weak variant, which retained the time perception alteration. Itachi used a weak variant to break Sasuke out of Kabuto's illusion.
> 
> Kishi portrayed Tsukuyomi as a powerful illusion which can be used at different levels.



 So basically, Sasuke has lower chakra reserves than Sick Itachi? Sorry, but I'm not buying that argument. 





> How to you explain Sasuke using only the right eye and all the inverted panels? Moreover the fact that Tobi felt the need to mention Tsukuyomi's time perception attribute to why Danzo's Izanagi failed?



That honestly doesn't prove that Sasuke used Tsukyomi.

 Tobi felt the need to emphasize Sasuke's accomplishment as he managed to do something that Danzo believed only Tsukyomi would be able to accomplish. It's simply an emphasis on skill and Sasuke's superiority in using the Sharingan compared to Danzo. That's the main purpose of Tobi's explanation.



> Time manipulation was making Danzo think there was more time than he actually had.



 Yet how would that work? Make Danzo believe that 3 seconds is actually 1 second? No. He merely trapped him into an illusion forcing Danzo to believe he had more time correlated to his heavy reliance on double-checking if his Izanagi eye was open. Sasuke knew this and took advantage of this by trapping him into an illusion where the eye remained open when in actuality it was shut. That's no time manipulation, that's just outright deceiving Danzo with proper timing with his illusion.





> Danzo was surprised Sasuke was able to actually put him in an illusion, before he effortlessly broke the illusion. Then he goes on to imply that only a Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi would work on him because it alters time perception.



 Yet my panel presented displayed that there was an interval of time where Danzo was affected and Sasuke used that to his advantage. That's the emphasis on proper timing that Kishimoto attempted to convey through Tobi.



> If it was just normal Genjutsu, Kishi wouldn't have needed to add your explanation *alongside* the emphasis on the relevant eye and the inverted panels.



 Relevant eye? Please prove that his right eye uses Tsukyomi as I'm only convinced that it's his dominant eye for Genjutsu.

 Yes he would have. It being normal genjutsu further emphasize Sasuke's perception, skill, and timing of his Sharingan prowess compared to Danzo. It being Tsukyomi would imply that those things wouldn't have mattered as Danzo would've been fodder-stomped by Genjutsu from the very start.



> Your assumption only holds if we assume Tsukuyomi *must* follow with a big toll on the user. Itachi saving Sasuke with the illusion shows that's not the case.



 Well, he's an Edo Tensei, so his body is constantly regenerating from the cellular damage being inflicted to his eye.






> As per the databooks 2 and 3, and what we saw against Killer B (plus the instance we're talking about) Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi. To assume otherwise is actually the misinterpretation.



 Yet there's nothing hinting towards Sasuke's MS Genjutsu even remotely using time manipulation while Itachi's was outright stated to be it from the very start. If Bee was hit by Tsukyomi, he would have actually died before the Hachibi would manage to break Bee from his genjutsu and if not, he would have at least been traumatized as those are the roots of Tsukyomi: Time manipulation + Psychological trauma. Naruto was merely traumatized after Itachi's basic Genjutsu. Bee, who has no ability to handle it would be traumatized or at least mentally damaged by a full-blown Tsukyomi. 



> For instance the databook 2 said those (Uchiha with unaltered genes) with the MS would grant Tsukuyomi. Sasuke showed Tsukuyomi against Bee, which met the criteria including the one for when the illusion fails. The third databook said only those who master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi can unlock Susanoo; Sasuke used both these jutsu prior unlocking Susanoo. Susanoo was something Sasuke had before fighting the Raikage, but Kagutsuchi was something Sasuke discovered during the battle with the Gokage.
> How can Kagutsuchi have been the second eye power when he unlocked it _after_ Susanoo?



 Except Kakashi unlocked Susano'o through having both eyes that were only capable of using different variations of Kamui. It's never outright stated in the manga for Tsukyomi or Amaterasu to be requirements. All that is required is having the Mangekyo in both eyes which was directly stated by Sasuke.

 Sasuke never used Tsukyomi and the artwork isn't enough to convince me otherwise. With Itachi, we always had statements implying the usage of it. Here, we do not. 



> Let's not disregard facts established since part 1 and clear artwork which shows Sasuke has Tsukuyomi just because a few of us literally need it spelt out for us. That's like saying Obito never used Gedo Dama because he never named them. Despite the fact that the applications and artwork should be more than enough evidence to indicate that he has them.
> Of course, as I pointed out: there is an agenda to deny Sasuke has Tsukuyomi.



 Except the artwork isn't remotely similar. Tsukyomi reprents psychological trauma being inflicted towards it's opponents whereas the genjutsu Sasuke uses are mere illusions. The one used against Danzo merely supports that as his "Tsukyomi" was only used to trap Danzo into an illusion to cause him to lose sight of the Izanagi time-limit. Why not deal unbreakable psychological trauma when Tsukyomi was implied to be unbreakable even in Part 1? Let's not go around ignoring facts from Part 1 now.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Munboy sasuke did not alter danzo perception of time. he had no need to, danzo himself didnt know how long izanagi lasted. All sasuke did was make him believe an eye was still open 

no perception of time was altered at all

If the argument is inverted panel= tskuyomi i will give you that

however obito never once implied tskuyomi was the only way to catch danzo in genjutsu 

All he said is the genjutsu sasuke used which danzo broke was shit level compared to itachi tskuyomi

the genjutsu which worked on danzo was simply a short and weak genjutsu, so weak that danzo wouldnt notice he was in one


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## StickaStick (Jun 10, 2015)

Maybe I'm crazy but I could have sworn it was stated somewhere in the manga that the new host of former host's MS retains their dojustu. Tried finding it but no luck, so idk.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is this general misconception that Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kabuto because Itachi mentioned his plan of using it earler.
> 
> Itachi's initial plan was to use Tsukiyomi, torture the information out of Kabuto while at the same time leaving him unconscious or semi conscious so it would be alot easier to control him.
> 
> That plan went down the drain when Kabuto made himself immune to visual genjutsu. And at the end,  Izanami had his conscious mind trapped, so controlling him with sharingan genjutsu was easy enough. *Even if he was capable of using Tsukiyomi, it would be completely redundant.*


Right...


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Tsukuyomi varies in strength and cost based on time manipulation.

We see 24 hour Tsukuyomi doesn't wear Itachi out like a 72 hour Tsukuyomi.

So a no-time-manipulation Tsukuyomi is basically a normal MS genjutsu.

i.e. it has virtually no stamina impact.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

So is the general consensus that sasuke has tskuyomi?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So is the general consensus that sasuke has tskuyomi?



It's safe to say that anything Munboy thinks is wrong.

Inverted colors don't mean Tsukuyomi.

e.g. Shōten Itachi's base Sharingan genjutsu had inverted colors.

Guess not.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's safe to say that anything Munboy thinks is wrong.
> 
> Inverted colors don't mean Tsukuyomi.
> 
> e.g. Shōten Itachi's base Sharingan genjutsu had inverted colors.



no it did not
if so pretty please show me

I have been looking for how to counter his argument 

please show me


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

I guess I remembered incorrectly. Alternatively, the Tsukuyomi Itachi used on Hebi Sasuke didn't have inverted color until broken. Tsukuyomi without time manipulation is normal MS genjutsu. 

But the entire hype surrounding Tsukuyomi is because _it defeats the partner method entirely_ - the damage is done in a moment, before any chakra-transfer between partners can take place.

If Munboy wants to insist Sasuke has "Tsukuyomi," then it's an infinitely weaker version of Itachi's jutsu usage. You may as well compare Shikamaru's shunshin to A's shunshin.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I guess I remembered incorrectly. Alternatively, the Tsukuyomi Itachi used on Hebi Sasuke didn't have inverted color until broken. Tsukuyomi without time manipulation is normal MS genjutsu.
> 
> The entire hype surrounding Tsukuyomi is that, because it defeats the partner method entirely - the damage is done in a moment, before any chakra-transfer between partners can take place.​





I thought you had something for me

that's not enough though, cuz it really is looking more and more like sasuke got tskuyomi 

kishi only ever does inverted panels for tskuyomi 

not even tayuya genjutsu or any genjutsu has panels like that

its shitty to have Munboy win an argument


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Point being: Obito specifically says Sasuke's genjutsu, whether you want to call it Tsukuyomi or not, _does not control time_, and is no match for Itachi's Tsukuyomi. 

Comparing the two is like saying Gaara knows the shunshin jutsu, so he can blitz as effectively as A. It's not how it works. Danzo said Sasuke's genjutsu was like the earth beneath heaven in comparison.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Point being: Obito specifically says Sasuke's genjutsu, whether you want to call it Tsukuyomi or not, _does not control time_, and is no match for Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
> ​



oh I know its no match for itachi tskuyomi both obito and danzo confirm this already

was never in doubt. I just didn't think sasuke had tskuyomi to begin with that's all 

What do you think is the fastest of these 3

basic genjutsu 

kamui 

tskuyomi 

and I mean fastest in taking effect against the victim


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh I know its no match for itachi tskuyomi both obito and danzo confirm this already
> 
> was never in doubt. I just didn't think sasuke had tskuyomi to begin with that's all
> 
> ...



All are instant. The difference is that base Sharingan torture genjutsu needs time to be more effective, because a few seconds of torture can be shaken off. 

Itachi's Tsukuyomi is inferior to Kamui because it can be resisted by elite doujutsu users (not partner method.) Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi" is base Sharingan genjutsu that's probably harder to kai-break.​


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## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh I know its no match for itachi tskuyomi both obito and danzo confirm this already
> 
> was never in doubt. I just didn't think sasuke had tskuyomi to begin with that's all
> 
> ...



You like ignoring shit that's already been presented to you don't you?can't move.
I'm sure 5 minutes from now, you'll conveniently forget what's been shown to you.
Key word I*NSTANT* , you can't refute this no matter how hard you try.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> All are instant. The difference is that base Sharingan torture genjutsu needs time to be more effective, because a few seconds of torture can be shaken off.



base sharingan torture genjutsu? you mean the one itachi attempted on kakashi clone? 

don't mind the name 

ok All are instant but aren't all those instant things slower than hirashin 

which is the only true instant thing in the manga so far


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> base sharingan torture genjutsu? you mean the one itachi attempted on kakashi clone?
> 
> don't mind the name
> 
> ...



Hiraishin and summoning are the only jutsu that instantly cross distance, not the only jutsu that instantly take effect. Obito's Kamui also instantly moves his body parts to another dimension.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hiraishin and summoning are the only jutsu that instantly cross distance, not the only jutsu that instantly take effect. Obito's Kamui also instantly moves his body parts to another dimension.​



I get ya

but they are all in the same speed ball park more or less

I just don't see why minato being able to avoid kamui mid wrap isn't taken into consideration as a way to say itachi landing genjutsu on him is a tall order


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

After Minato got away, Obito said he'd _do the next one instantly_.

But IMO Minato can Hiraishin out of Kamui-land anyway.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> After Minato got away, Obito said he'd _do the next one instantly_.
> 
> But IMO Minato can Hiraishin out of Kamui-land anyway.



what he said was unlike the first time where he decided to talk first 

the next time he was just going to get on with it

that's true. However it still doesn't negate the fact that minato only attempted his escape mid kamui wrap 

and obito could never again grab him


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> You like ignoring shit that's already been presented to you don't you?can't move.
> I'm sure 5 minutes from now, you'll conveniently forget what's been shown to you.
> Key word I*NSTANT* , you can't refute this no matter how hard you try.



hirashin is also *FUCKING INSTANT*

so whats ur point 

need panels or DB statements, kishi never highlights anything having to do with speed more than his does minato speed in battle 

so your genjutsu hype train really is nothing compared to how kishi the author views minato ability to get to an enemy or away from said enemy 

kamui is also *INSTANT* guess who escaped it mid wrap ?


----------



## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hirashin is also *FUCKING INSTANT*
> 
> so whats ur point
> 
> ...



Yeah, kamui is instant. That's why he said he'll teleport him immediately next time he touches him right? him.can't move.
Samui may or may not be instant, but the one used on Minato wasn't. Try again


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 10, 2015)

In my estimation Obito underestimated how quickly Minato can teleport out. I'd actually side with Minato who suggested it was more of flip-of-the-coin proposition when he stated that it would come down to a split second difference. Frankly, I don't see how Obito can warp Minato period considering the warping-part takes greater than a split second, which is longer then it takes Minato to mentally activate FTG. But I guess I'll take Minato's word for it


----------



## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> In my estimation Obito underestimated how quickly Minato can teleport out. I'd actually side with Minato who suggested it was more of flip-of-the-coin proposition when he stated that it would come down to a split second difference. Frankly, I don't see how Obito can warp Minato period considering the warping-part takes greater than a split second, which is longer then it takes Minato to mentally activate FTG. But I guess I'll take Minato's word for it



Have we ever been shown a panel where chammy transported a person away instantly, withoutthe couple of seconds of distorting spacetime?


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Yeah, kamui is instant. That's why he said he'll teleport him immediately next time he touches him right? him.can't move.
> Samui may or may not be instant, but the one used on Minato wasn't. Try again





it still was, 

all he said was instead of talking before he attacks. he intends to immediately kamui wrap him

that wont make kamui itself faster since minato only attempted to escape mid kamui 

try a lot harder 

in any case by feats and hype kamui>> itachi genjutsu in terms of speed so keep tryin buddy

 yes we have seen kamui used without the time space distortion 

when obito saved sasuke from jinton. he used kamui wrap twice without anyone noticing it 

btw kamui on himself is even slower than against others. yet was still able to pull it off before jinton exploded.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 10, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Have we ever been shown a panel where chammy transported a person away instantly, withoutthe couple of seconds of distorting spacetime?


chammy?

10char

Nvm, you mean Kamui, right? Anyway, I guess you could say when he saved Sasuke against Jinton:
can't move.

Which is weird that he could do it that fast. Kishi is actually pretty inconsistent with the warp speed of Kamui.


----------



## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> it still was,
> .
> all he said was instead of talking before he attacks. he intends to immediately kamui wrap him
> 
> ...



No it wasn't, then there would have been no point in Tobi's statement. You're the one in denial. Minato has never been shown to escape an instant attack, if he was how'd he end up armless from not being able evade?
Keep reaching buddy, kamui is not instant when transporting a person.


----------



## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> chammy?
> 
> 10char



Damn macbook autocorrect, kamui*


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> No it wasn't, then there would have been no point in Tobi's statement. You're the one in denial. Minato has never been shown to escape an instant attack, if he was how'd he end up armless from not being able evade?
> Keep reaching buddy, kamui is not instant when transporting a person.





obito said next time ill get him immediately. i.e no bloody giving some "i got you now speech"

he cannot suddenly make his kamui go faster

that's your fan fiction 

really if kamui isn't instant when teleporting a person, how did kakashi send Naruto to kamui land without obito noticing it when obito was looking right at Naruto? 

kamui from the start of the manga was hyped on the same level as amaterasu. I guess you want to claim amaterasu isn't instant either, maybe you wanna claim that

just remember its itachi jutsu 

in any case the only truly instant thing ever emphasized in the manga and DB is hirashin 

do tell me where kishi the author says itachi ability to catch people in genjutsu is so fast that its unavoidable ill wait

look at the polls when you got the chance


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 10, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Damn macbook autocorrect, kamui*


Yeah I thought so and edited my post.

here it is anyway

Anyway, I guess you could say when he saved Sasuke against Jinton:
can't move.

Which is weird that he could do it that fast. Kishi is actually pretty inconsistent with the warp speed of Kamui.


----------



## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> obito said next time ill get him immediately. i.e no bloody giving some "i got you now speech"
> 
> he cannot suddenly make his kamui go faster
> 
> ...


Obit said next he'll teleport him the next time he touches him, without talking. And no, transporting people has been wildly inconsistent, whereas amaterasu theres always a reason someone avoids it, a barely dodged it, jubito knew it was coming  because he could sense the chakra buildup.
Amaterasu is consistently shown as fast whereas in your head chammy is constantly instant despite what the manga and other people show/say. And no amaterasu is not instant, it's extremely fast but not instant, because you cannot dodge instant like how Madara dodged flying raijin.

Again for the 100th time
can't move.
"The moment you looked in Itachi-san's sharingan, you were trapped in his illusions" Kisame said *THE INSTANT*
in?stant
ˈinstənt
adjective
1.
happening or coming immediately.
"the offense justified instant dismissal"
synonyms:	immediate, instantaneous, on-the-spot, prompt, swift, speedy, rapid, quick, express, lightning; More

There is a definition of instant right there for you if you can't comprehend. There, I've provided you with what Kisame/Kishimoto has to say about Itachi's genjutsu and a google definition of the word "instant" that was describing Itachi's sharing genjutsu.

I don't know what is so hard to comprehend about this. Just admit you were wrong about Itachi's sharing genjutsu activation time. It is not the end of the world

The polls don't mean shit unless Kishi voted on them. This is no different than the time people said Kabuto would troll Itachi and Sasuke would be the one to defeat Kabuto by himself. Back then and now you're wrong.

Lmfao gtfo as if anyone who's ever said Itachi would lose to someone wasn't proven wrong in the manga 
Pathetic


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 10, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Munboy sasuke did not alter danzo perception of time. he had no need to, danzo himself didnt know how long izanagi lasted. All sasuke did was make him believe an eye was still open



Even *after* Danzo showed normal Genjutsu wouldn't work on him, coupled with the relevant eye being emphasised along with the classic Tsukuyomi inverted panels... Not to mention Tobi's quote. 



> however obito never once implied tskuyomi was the only way to catch danzo in genjutsu



But he implied that's why Izanagi failed. 



> All he said is the genjutsu sasuke used which danzo broke was shit level compared to itachi tskuyomi
> 
> the genjutsu which worked on danzo was simply a short and weak genjutsu, so weak that danzo wouldnt notice he was in one



That's what Danzo said, not Tobi. Tobi said that Sasuke used a weak Genjutsu, while all the artwork and other evidence mentioned pointed to it being Tsukuyomi. The answer is simple: Sasuke used a weak Tsukuyomi.

Or Sasuke used Tsukuyomi, a Genjutsu which Danzo wouldn't recognise as his perception of time was altered.



Icegaze said:


> So is the general consensus that sasuke has tskuyomi?



It has been obvious he had Tsukuyomi since he used it on Bee. The only people at this point who don't believe it are just blatantly ignoring manga evidence. 
Generally you'll find those who say Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi (as a non Uchiha overcome it) are also those who ignore why Zetsu said healthy Itachi>sick Itachi.

Consensus or not, towering evidence such as databooks, statements and even the artwork (sorry guys, but inverted panels _with the relevant MS eye_ means Tsukuyomi) all point to it. It is pretty much like saying Obito lacks Gedo Dama despite the facts and artwork saying otherwise. 

What does this mean? Depending on the circumstances, if Minato has Kurama, even Tsukuyomi is useless. Further limiting Itachi's options in a battle he stands no chance of winning.


----------



## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Yeah I thought so and edited my post.
> 
> here it is anyway
> 
> ...



Yeah you're right about it being inconsistent, when used against Minato and others it shows swirling space time while being absorbed in a couple of seconds, but when he transported Sauce and when Karachi transported the susanoo bow, it was extremely fast.
For him saving sauce, he may have already been transporting him, but that's reaching on my part.

Blame Kishi for being so damn inconsistent


----------



## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even *after* *Danzo showed normal Genjutsu wouldn't work on him*, coupled with the relevant eye being emphasised along with the classic Tsukuyomi inverted panels... *Not to mention Tobi's quote*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



can't move.
can't move.
It's not tsukuyomi. He said it was a weak genjutsu.

Here Itachi was using tsukuyomi but gasp, where are the inverted panels?can't move.
You're entire argument is based off that the inverted panels showed Sasuke using tsukuyomi yet when Itachi used it we din't see inverted panels until here
can't move. when it was being dispelled, care to explain the inconsistency?


----------



## Bookworm (Jun 11, 2015)

*Of course Itachi wins...*

Itachi could win by creating a Shadow clone and having him Shunshin close to Minato like the bottom right panel of the page in the spoiler and genjutsu Minato: 

Or 

He can get on his crow and Amaterasu part of the area and it burn the whole area eventually.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even *after* Danzo showed normal Genjutsu wouldn't work on him, coupled with the relevant eye being emphasised along with the classic Tsukuyomi inverted panels... Not to mention Tobi's quote.



which again got nothing to do with altering danzo perception of time. why would he? think about it



> But he implied that's why Izanagi failed.



izanagi failed because of a short weak genjutsu used to fool danzo into believing he had an eye open. you know the same danzo who kept looking at his hand to see if its closed or not. foolign his perception of time would be pointless



> That's what Danzo said, not Tobi. Tobi said that Sasuke used a weak Genjutsu, while all the artwork and other evidence mentioned pointed to it being Tsukuyomi. The answer is simple: Sasuke used a weak Tsukuyomi.



true



> Or Sasuke used Tsukuyomi, a Genjutsu which Danzo wouldn't recognise as his perception of time was altered.



again it was not altered. why would it? the guy didnt know how long izanagi lasted. why would altering his perception of time help? he kept checking his eyes. make him believe its still open. simple as that



> It has been obvious he had Tsukuyomi since he used it on Bee. The only people at this point who don't believe it are just blatantly ignoring manga evidence.
> Generally you'll find those who say Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi (as a non Uchiha overcome it) are also those who ignore why Zetsu said healthy Itachi>sick Itachi.



ok



> Consensus or not, towering evidence such as databooks, statements and even the artwork (sorry guys, but inverted panels _with the relevant MS eye_ means Tsukuyomi) all point to it. It is pretty much like saying Obito lacks Gedo Dama despite the facts and artwork saying otherwise.



ok



> What does this mean? Depending on the circumstances, if Minato has Kurama, even Tsukuyomi is useless. Further limiting Itachi's options in a battle he stands no chance of winning.



fair enough


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Obit said next he'll teleport him the next time he touches him, without talking.



which is what i said. how does that change the fact that minato still avoided it mid wrap?

rest of your post is bla bla

kisame said its instant, sasuke said amaterasu is instant as well, same thing he said for kirin. yet we know neither are true 



kisame hyping itachi genjutsu is good and all but makes no difference.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> which again got nothing to do with altering danzo perception of time. why would he? think about it



How do you understand the ability to alter the victim's perception of time? I'm getting the idea that we've got different notions.

I'll tackle the other points after I get this key point out of the way.



Trolling said:


> Itachi could win by creating a Shadow clone and having him Shunshin close to Minato like the bottom right panel of the page in the spoiler and genjutsu Minato:
> 
> Or
> 
> He can get on his crow and Amaterasu part of the area and it burn the whole area eventually.



First part, Minato's a sensor, he'll know where Itachi is at all times. He'll also be able to tell when Itachi's charging chakra for jutsu as sensors can do that. 

Burning the area will to no good when Minato can just throw a kunai (pretty quickly) then follow by teleporting and taking Itachi out while Itachi is focusing on Amaterasu. Minato has the reflexes for that and Amaterasu is a jutsu Itachi needs to focus on; Itachi lacks sensing.

Also how on earth will Itachi get on a crow? Pokemon style like using Pidgey to fly?


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How do you understand the ability to alter the victim's perception of time? I'm getting the idea that we've got different notions.
> 
> I'll tackle the other points after I get this key point out of the way.



making you believe 10 hours= 1 hour something along those lines or the opposite 1hr=10 hours

now tell me how is faking an open eye the same as altering danzo perception of time. When danzo didnt even know how much time he had. 

your altering theory would make sense if danzo knew exactly how much time he had and didnt need to check it out 





> First part, Minato's a sensor, he'll know where Itachi is at all times. He'll also be able to tell when Itachi's charging chakra for jutsu as sensors can do that.
> 
> Burning the area will to no good when Minato can just throw a kunai (pretty quickly) then follow by teleporting and taking Itachi out while Itachi is focusing on Amaterasu. Minato has the reflexes for that and Amaterasu is a jutsu Itachi needs to focus on; Itachi lacks sensing.
> 
> Also how on earth will Itachi get on a crow? Pokemon style like using Pidgey to fly?



pretty much


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

just putting this here. 



because why not.


----------



## Bookworm (Jun 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> First part, Minato's a sensor, he'll know where Itachi is at all times. He'll also be able to tell when Itachi's charging chakra for jutsu as sensors can do that.
> 
> Burning the area will to no good when Minato can just throw a kunai (pretty quickly) then follow by teleporting and taking Itachi out while Itachi is focusing on Amaterasu. Minato has the reflexes for that and Amaterasu is a jutsu Itachi needs to focus on; Itachi lacks sensing.
> 
> Also how on earth will Itachi get on a crow? Pokemon style like using Pidgey to fly?



- Where was it shown Minato is a sensor?

- It doesn't matter, Itachi creates KB so fast it wouldn't make a difference. Why would it matter if Minato could sense when he uses kb? The kb could still just shunshin next to him even if he could sense when it's coming out. 

- Itachi could counter Minato's kunai with his own or Itachi could Ameratsu the kunai. Itachi can get on top on his big crow like Sasuke get's on his big eagle.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Trolling said:


> - Where was it shown Minato is a sensor?
> 
> - It doesn't matter, Itachi creates KB so fast it wouldn't make a difference. Why would it matter if Minato could sense when he uses kb? The kb could still just shunshin next to him even if he could sense when it's coming out.
> 
> - Itachi could counter Minato's kunai with his own or Itachi could Ameratsu the kunai. Itachi can get on top on his big crow like Sasuke get's on his big eagle.



Dude, get with the times.





KB is chakra taxing. Itachi doesn't have the stamina to waste using kb. Minato can throw out 30 plus kunai at once with a single hand. Itachi can't counter them all with his shuriken. Nor does itachi have the stamina to burn through all of minatos kunai with amaterasu, he'll go blind.

Itachi doesn't have a big crow you liar.


----------



## Bookworm (Jun 11, 2015)

*Itachi eats Hokages for breakfast!*



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Dude, get with the times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- Minato has only shown to be a sensor with the Kyuubi inside of him.

- He can use a Karasu Bunshin. 

- Minato hasn't shown to be able to throw 30 kunai in one direction, long distances. The kunai went in random places. Itachi doesn't need to counter all 30. Also he could use Amaterasu on all of them at the same time, if they are all in the same area, due to Amaterasu's size.

- Yeah he does. He does have a big crow.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Dude, get with the times.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you even bothered with reading his user name?


----------



## Six (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> which is what i said. how does that change the fact that minato still avoided it mid wrap?
> 
> rest of your post is bla bla
> 
> ...


He escaped because he had some time to react, it wasn't instant. Unlike Itachi's genjutsu was stated to be.
Yeah the rest is blah blah blah you can't refute.
Concession accepted 


Hussain said:


> just putting this here.
> 
> 
> 
> because why not.


Nice, murdering fodder, makes him real cool


----------



## Six (Jun 11, 2015)

Also wasn't Itachi ambiguously stated to be a sensor? He wouldn't say whether he was or wasn't when asked by Kabuto.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

Well, itachi was defeated by fodders (Tayuya), and so was Tobirama, Hashirama, 3rd Raikage, and so one. 
Heck, even Narudo and Sasuke. 



> Also wasn't Itachi ambiguously stated to be a sensor? He wouldn't say whether he was or wasn't when asked by Kabuto.



lol, no.


----------



## Six (Jun 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Well, itachi was defeated by fodders (Tayuya), and so was Tobirama, Hashirama, 3rd Raikage, and so one.



Last time I checked, Itachi was holding back against a sage enhanced Kabuto but I may be wrong. Unless you can prove that he was fighting Tayuya the entire time.
Lol I'm not taking anything away from that gif, Minato actually looks pretty good against fodder.
The others were beaten by hyped fodder which is different. And the third raikage fought 10000 people.

And yes, Itachi never stated whether he was a sensor or not when Kabuto asked, get your hate out of your eyes and be reasonable for once.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Last time I checked, Itachi was holding back against a sage enhanced Kabuto but I may be wrong. Unless you can prove that he was fighting Tayuya the entire time.
> Lol I'm not taking anything away from that gif, Minato actually looks pretty good against fodder.



-Just like how Tayuya was holding back and not using her CS. 
So, yes, you're wrong. 

- He always looks good until PIC/CIS strikes.


----------



## Six (Jun 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> -Just like how Tayuya was holding back and not using her CS.
> So, yes, you're wrong.
> 
> - He always looks good until PIC/CIS strikes.



What are you talking about? Tayuya is dead everything you saw from the sound 4 was Kabuto's jutsu


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Trolling said:


> - Minato has only shown to be a sensor with the Kyuubi inside of him.
> 
> - He can use a Karasu Bunshin.
> 
> ...


Show me the big crow.
The last image i posted he doesnt have kurama inside him.


----------



## Bookworm (Jun 11, 2015)

*Told ya so*



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Show me the big crow.
> The last image i posted he doesnt have kurama inside him.



Here's the big crow:



Being able to sense Naruto's chakra doesn't mean Minato is a sensor, Sasuke and Suigetsu were able to sense Naruto power too and they aren't sensors.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

any proof that crow is actually big and that it wasn't just a close up on the crow?

 minato is a proven sensor. he sensed the fodder iwa guy in the kakashi gaiden arc


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> He escaped because he had some time to react, it wasn't instant. Unlike Itachi's genjutsu was stated to be.
> Yeah the rest is blah blah blah you can't refute.
> Concession accepted
> 
> Nice, murdering fodder, makes him real cool



 

and kamui has been stated to be instant the same way amaterasu was stated to be instant 

yet we have people out running and straight up avoiding it

itachi genjutsu is no different


----------



## Six (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> and kamui has been stated to be instant the same way amaterasu was stated to be instant
> 
> yet we have people out running and straight up avoiding it
> 
> itachi genjutsu is no different



Stating and carrying out are two different things.
Go read that definition of instant I showed you.
You don't dodge instant, it's impossible. No credible writer would ever even think about something that ludicrous.

We have actual panel feats showing that Kamui and Amaterasu are not instant. They are incredibly fast, but not instant.
Not to mention they are physical things, i.e fire and distorting spacetime.
Tanya's sound genjutsu moves at the speed of sound and is incredibly fast, it's not instant but moves at a pretty unavoidable speed.
Itachi's genjutsu requires eye contact and that instant you're already in the just, that has been shown numerous times.
Hell Minato's flying raijin isn't even instant shown when madder dodged it, and here   He doesn't feel it inmediately. You see Obito's hand as soon as he solidifies and right when Minato teleported, you see his fingers bent slightly. That is showing incredibly high speed, if it were instant his hand would in the exact same place as when he started grabbing him.

Keep arguing, I enjoy seeing you make a fool of yourself


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Stating and carrying out are two different things.
> Go read that definition of instant I showed you.
> You don't dodge instant, it's impossible. No credible writer would ever even think about something that ludicrous.
> 
> ...



 you do realize its not just making eye contact right. itachi must control the chakra in your brain

that's not instant you get that right. its also never been shown to be instant, we even see when sasuke used the exact same genjutsu itachi used, 2 panels are shown emphasizing genjutsu being used

faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from instant

genjutsu has never been shown to be instant. even against fodder deidara it took what 2 pages for the genjutsu to do anything to deidara 

if itachi genjutsu were instant then partner method wont be a way to break the genjutsu, if its instantly happened what exactly would the partner be breaking

omg I love tards such as you. I missed that

*list of genjutsu shown to not be instant*

sharinnegan sasuke against sakura - not instant

itachi against kakashi clone not instant

sasuke against C- not instant 

sasuke against danzo- not instant

itachi against kabuto- not instant

So what panels are you using to suggest its instant? the only one you can provide shows itachi controlling deidara for 2 panels before deidara was actually in danger that's actually quite slow. if all it took was to look into his eyes without itachi or any sharingan user doing anything 

jiraiya and mifune would have been caught in genjutsu casually. it takes the user pumping chakra and wanting to active control the enemy chakra....key bloody word actively. hence why partner method works against basic genjutsu


----------



## Six (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you do realize its not just making eye contact right. itachi must control the chakra in your brain
> 
> that's not instant you get that right. its also never been shown to be instant, we even see when sasuke used the exact same genjutsu itachi used, 2 panels are shown emphasizing genjutsu being used
> 
> ...


Quick glance
 He doesn't feel it inmediately.
Quick glance
 He doesn't feel it inmediately.
 He doesn't feel it inmediately. Literally the next panel he's already in genjutsu.

Quick glance
 He doesn't feel it inmediately. Already in the genjutsu

The chakra is being controlled the entire time while images are being fed the victim. Never has it said X character needs to control this persons chakra for a certain amount of time before they are under it's effects.

Blame Kishi for not being thorough, but from what we're are shown and along with Kisame his partner, I'm going to take their word over yours. Kisame>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You

Plus now I know you're high, how long was Naruto running around looking like an idiot until the combined efforts of Sakura and Chiyo broke him out? Partner has to realize the person is under genjutsu then they can break them out. Unlike Tsukuyomi which is only a second long where the partner method is useless other genjutsu move according to normal time allowing a teammate bijou to save you.

Glad I made you shut up about all that other instant nonsense


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Quick glance
> He doesn't feel it inmediately.
> Quick glance
> He doesn't feel it inmediately.
> ...



first scan made me laugh so 2 panels before Bee is in genjutsu. how many panels did it take for obito to wrap Fuu ? or torune? just saying

 that's still quicker than genjutsu

I am also going to take sasuke words over yours since its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wait for it>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>relevant than everything having to do with you 

Calls amaterasu instant. its not. 

Calls kirin instant its not

despite the fact that against SM madara amaterasu appeared on madara 

those panels you provided don't discount the fact that sasuke still took about 2 panels to genjutsu C

kamui will never take that long to wrap him


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2015)

Trolling said:


> - Where was it shown Minato is a sensor?
> 
> - It doesn't matter, Itachi creates KB so fast it wouldn't make a difference. Why would it matter if Minato could sense when he uses kb? The kb could still just shunshin next to him even if he could sense when it's coming out.
> 
> - Itachi could counter Minato's kunai with his own or Itachi could Ameratsu the kunai. Itachi can get on top on his big crow like Sasuke get's on his big eagle.



- Implied during his revival, pretty much stated when Kurama told him to switch to sensor mode when Naruto was being taken to him while he fought Zetsu-Obito.

- Itachi cannot create Kage Bunshins, he lacks the chakra levels to use it well. Karasu Bunshins are another story. It matters that Minato can sense when Itachi uses jutsu because Minato can adapt his game plan easily. 
The KB won't be beating the guy whose got famous speed and reflexes in a Shunshin battle, much less such a fellow whose Shunshin is faster than Itachi's who also has Hiraishin to boot.
Tobi, someone whose much faster than Itachi would've been stabbed in the head if not for Kamui. Relevant as Tobi attempted a much more efficient version of what you're saying Itachi could do. Foiled by the fact Minato can sense chakra and has amazing reflexes.
The only speed edge Itachi has over Tobi and Minato is hand seal speed, that's it.
If Minato uses clones, Itachi is screwed seeing as Minato, unlike Itachi, can trick Itachi into thinking its the real deal. The clones can use Hiraishin too, albeit not as fast as the real user. Itachi isn't a Juubi Jinchuriki nor is he remotely comparable or has the relevant speed/abilities for the KB aspect to make a difference.

- What good is the counter Minato's kunai you suggested? You still give Minato, or a clone, room to teleport to that deflected kunai and throw another one at close range. In fact he could throw one that Itachi can react to alongside another which can be the one that allows him to get at a good range. Minato's reflexes probably mean that Itachi won't be able to adequately counter Minato's kunai spam; Minato would have littered the battlefield with kunai anyway. 

Now when Itachi _focuses_ on incinerating one kunai, Minato can teleport to another and smack Itachi with a Rasengan and simultaneously mark him with Hiraishin. 

Itachi probably has no such summons. Though lets assume big crows exist, what then? Minato will just be encourages to use his own summons. Couple that with his Hiraishin use, Itachi's summons won't be that much helpful. Especially since Itachi's attacks can be sent back at him. Even Amaterasu, whose chakra has to travel to Minato. Juubito pretty much showed sensors with adequate counters render Amaterasu useless.

This is Itachi hoping that Minato doesn't enter SM and summon the Ni Dai Sannin. Look how much base Minato has to make Itachi use to _consider_ victory. Any other forms, IIRC the OP allowed Kurama Minato, such as SM and Itachi gets wrecked.



Law Trafalgar said:


> Also wasn't Itachi ambiguously stated to be a sensor? He wouldn't say whether he was or wasn't when asked by Kabuto.



Itachi was *never* stated to be a sensor in any form. The question you cite was never answered... that's a factual error on your part: Itachi answered that question and said possesses no such ability; he's not a sensor. That explains why he was continually owned by Kabuto in situations where sensory skills would've saved him.


----------



## Bookworm (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Show me the big crow.
> The last image i posted he doesnt have kurama inside him.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - Implied during his revival, pretty much stated when Kurama told him to switch to sensor mode when Naruto was being taken to him while he fought Zetsu-Obito.
> 
> - Itachi cannot create Kage Bunshins, he lacks the chakra levels to use it well. Karasu Bunshins are another story. It matters that Minato can sense when Itachi uses jutsu because Minato can adapt his game plan easily.
> The KB won't be beating the guy whose got famous speed and reflexes in a Shunshin battle, much less such a fellow whose Shunshin is faster than Itachi's who also has Hiraishin to boot.
> ...



- It doesn't matter if Minato is a sensor with the Kyuubi.

- I don't see how that would stop Itachi's KB from shunshin + genjutsu combo.  Tobi never attempted genjutsu on Minato and Tobi's plan was to use Kamui from the start. That's why he fought that way.  There's nothing that suggest Minato would have sent a kunai through Tobi's head, if Tobi didn't use Kamui.

- Minato has never sent more than one kunai, a long distance while going in the same direction. 

- For Amaterasu to be sent back to Itachi Minato would have to see it coming.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2015)

Trolling said:


> - It doesn't matter if Minato is a sensor with the Kyuubi.
> 
> - I don't see how that would stop Itachi's KB from shunshin + genjutsu combo.  Tobi never attempted genjutsu on Minato and Tobi's plan was to use Kamui from the start. That's why he fought that way.  There's nothing that suggest Minato would have sent a kunai through Tobi's head, if Tobi didn't use Kamui.
> 
> ...



- He's a sensor without too. It matters as it helps him see what Itachi plans to do.

- Then that means you don't see how that's countered by Shunshun-sensing-Hiraishin combos. 
Tobi never attempted because as Karin showed, sensors will know when they're being used. He planned to use Kamui from the beginning as that's a jutsu that would be good to use against Minaot..
The panel itself suggests Tobi would've taken a kunai to the head if not for Kamui.

- He never needed to. If he needs to he will.

- Any sensor can see Amaterasu coming.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 11, 2015)

> 2015
> people still take the academy-tier jutsu (Amatersu) seriously!



Minato took on powered up Enton directly, and teleported without any damage.


----------



## Bookworm (Jun 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - He's a sensor without too. It matters as it helps him see what Itachi plans to do.
> 
> - Then that means you don't see how that's countered by Shunshun-sensing-Hiraishin combos.
> Tobi never attempted because as Karin showed, sensors will know when they're being used. He planned to use Kamui from the beginning as that's a jutsu that would be good to use against Minaot..
> ...



- When has Minato sensed without the Kyuubi in him?

- Nope

- Tobi wouldn't have fought in that way without Kamui

- He has only thrown multiple kunai randomly before.

- Being a sensor only means that it's known something is coming, not was is coming. Also that doesn't actually mean Minato would see Amaterasu coming to him


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Also how on earth will Itachi get on a crow? Pokemon style like using Pidgey to fly?


That would be pretty fucking funny actually.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That would be pretty fucking funny actually.



Yo Im dead, absolutely finished 

Plus rep.

I've seen many ridiculous arguments and statements made. But itachi riding his crows  Im so done! This is comedy gold.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

I don' get what's ridiculous. 

The crow guarding the entrance to the cave was huge.

Kind of strange that Itachi thought it could stop EMS Sasuke though.

(This may be why EMS Sasuke couldn't use Perfect Susano'o )


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> any proof that crow is actually big and that it wasn't just a close up on the crow?



I mean... look carefully at the crow, the pillars, and the ceiling.

It's clearly not close up. It's a boss summon crow.

Which explains why it's by itself guarding the entrance.


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## StickaStick (Jun 11, 2015)

Idk if I'd call it _boss summon_ sized. I mean, Gama could probably fit that thing in his mouth and finish it in one bite (or swallow it whole I guess?).


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

It's difficult to know for sure because the dimensions of that portion of the cave is unknown. But it being 20 feet tall instead of 60 is moot for me, as my point is that Itachi flying doesn't have to be...
​


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Good grief, its just a normal sized crow. Its just one of the crows sasuke killed, that itachi summoned back in the forest to slow him down.  Its just been zoomed in on, itachi didn't even summon any more crows when he got to the cave, we saw him bash the cave entrace in and then enter.

Its like itachi fans live in their own little world. Tell me why would itachi summon a crow to guard the cave looool, whats the crow going to do? Hows it gonna guard against sasuke, is itachi really that stupid to think he can guard a cave with a crow?

Guys just watch episode 333 of the anime. Its clearer there. Its just a normal sized crow. They even go a step further in the anime to show hat sasuke leaves a trail of dead crows, the same crows itachi set on sasuke. Itacho doesn't have giant crows, never has.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Let's ignore that the panel clearly displays a big crow for now.  You're saying it's more rational to believe that one normal sized crow kept up with and fought EMS Sasuke from way outside?

And none of the other normal sized crows are seen anywhere in that cave either. So that means it must have been 1 vs 1 for awhile there, and that tiny crow was a BAMF champ.​


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Let's ignore that the panel clearly displays a big crow for now.  You're saying it's more rational to believe that one normal sized crow kept up with and fought EMS Sasuke from way outside?
> 
> And none of the other normal sized crows are seen anywhere in that cave either. So that means it must have been 1 vs 1 for awhile there, and that tiny crow was a BAMF champ.​


Kept up with and fought, wait what manga are you reading, is it the same as the one im reading??


I cant even.. You know what, whatever.

Even the animators of the episode are not so foolish to believe htat was a giant crow. But hey, itachi fans are special afterall. So yes, itachi has giant crows which in all his appearances has never displayed any crow of different size, and now leaves them to fend off against ems users. Dat itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

"Even the animators" is about as shitty an argument as you can make.

(Hello, Toon Deva.)

But explain to me.

Out of the dozens of crows summoned outside.

That one crow is the only one seen in the entire cave.

Why did it last that last 200 feet alone before dying to EMS Sauce?

But again. The manga panel clearly shows a large crow.


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## Six (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> first scan made me laugh so 2 panels before Bee is in genjutsu. how many panels did it take for obito to wrap Fuu ? or torune? just saying
> 
> that's still quicker than genjutsu
> 
> ...


You do realize that Bee and Itachi were looking at each other the exact same time. Those two panels took place at the same time. The panel after that he was already in the genjutsu. If you can't realize simple stuff like that then i'm done.

Care to comment on the time he put deidara under? Was that 3 minutes or whatever you think it is? DIFFERENT PANELS CAN OCCUR AT THE SAME TIME. Such as a staredown which Itachi does with Bee and Deidara. GO and ask anybody else that.

Amaterasu is fast, extremely fast but not instant. I don't remember Sasuke saying it was instant. But even if he did, manga evidence refuted that point. My point of Itachi's genjutsu has never been refuted by the manga.

Even Black Zetsu knew it wasn't instant. Though for sasuke, it might have well been instant because bar Itachi he believe nobody could react lightning.

Like I said amaterasu is fast, too fast for most people to dodge.

amp up people's jutsu We don't know the exact moment Sasuke used his genjutsu on C. Seeing as Sasuke took advantage of the distraction Juugo made.

Lol do you enjoy being wrong and in denial all the time? You should join the SasuSaku fan club ,you'd fit right in


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So is the general consensus that sasuke has tskuyomi?



 No. Munboy is just misinterpreting the entire battle. Tobi never once admitted to Sasuke being able to use Tsukyomi.

 Hell, Danzo outright contradicts that, Tobi emphasizes Sasuke's superior perceptive capabilities and his execution with his genjutsu allowed him to do something that only Tsukyomi would have normally been capable of even with a weak Sharingan genjutsu. The whole scan was used to emphasize Sasuke's skill here and it being Tsukyomi totally deviates from that idea.

 I personally used to believe he had Tsukyomi based on Danzo's statement, but that was a * huge * misinterpretation on my part. I actually had to reread the fight to actually comprehend what Danzo meant.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hirashin is also *FUCKING INSTANT*
> 
> so whats ur point
> 
> ...



 Kamui Warp isn't instant and that's evident when Base Gai managed to evade War Arc Obito's Kamui at close-range and Young Obito is vastly inferior in terms of reflexes.

 So no, Kamui isn't instant. If it was, Gai would've been absorbed as no one can react to something instantaneous. Unless Base Gai is stronger than Kaguya.  

 Even then, Base Minato is a sensor ninja and likely sensed the build up in chakra for Obito's Kamui before it was used considering Kamui requires chakra build-up in the eye.


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## StickaStick (Jun 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kamui Warp isn't instant and that's evident when *Base Gai managed to evade War Arc Obito's Kamui at close-range* and Young Obito is vastly inferior in terms of reflexes.
> 
> So no, Kamui isn't instant. If it was, Gai would've been absorbed as no one can react to something instantaneous. Unless Base Gai is stronger than Kaguya.
> 
> Even then, Base Minato is a sensor ninja and likely sensed the build up in chakra for Obito's Kamui before it was used considering Kamui requires chakra build-up in the eye.


When did this happen?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 11, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> When did this happen?



 1

 Here.


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## StickaStick (Jun 12, 2015)

Your statement suggests that you're equating the speed of Kamui warp with Gai's ability to "evade" it close range, which is confusing because Gai was never in the process of being warped so his evading is not indicative of the warping's speed. Actually, it doesn't appear Gai was attempting to evade at all, as you can see he's basically in the same spot as before Obito's started warping his nunchucks. And warping his nunchucks was all he was trying to do there.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Your statement suggests that you're equating the speed of Kamui warp with Gai's ability to "evade" it close range, which is confusing because Gai was never in the process of being warped so his evading is not indicative of the warping's speed. Actually, it doesn't appear Gai was attempting to evade at all, as you can see he's basically in the same spot as before Obito's started warping his nunchucks. And warping his nunchucks was all he was trying to do there.



 The idea was that even without sensing, he managed to detect Obito's Kamui Warp implying that it's not instantaneous. Hell, the fact that he managed to duck at the right time implies it's not instantaneous. That's a reaction feat and you can't ignore that.

 And yes, Gai was in the process of being warped or else ducking would not have been needed. If what you're suggesting is true, then Gai would have used it as an opportunity to counter-attack, but he did not, implying that Kamui was certainly within Gai's range.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> You do realize that Bee and Itachi were looking at each other the exact same time. Those two panels took place at the same time. The panel after that he was already in the genjutsu. If you can't realize simple stuff like that then i'm done.
> 
> Care to comment on the time he put deidara under? Was that 3 minutes or whatever you think it is? DIFFERENT PANELS CAN OCCUR AT THE SAME TIME. Such as a staredown which Itachi does with Bee and Deidara. GO and ask anybody else that.
> 
> ...



proof the 2 panels happened at the exact same time. ill wait 

genjutsu took 2 panels. kamui takes less than that. hows is genjutus faster then?

ur fan fic

if different panels occur at the same time. how do u determine its faster than things such as amaterasu then? whats your logic? because that was called instant as well 

so now do prove amaterasu is slower. since u know different panels occur at the same time


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kamui Warp isn't instant and that's evident when Base Gai managed to evade War Arc Obito's Kamui at close-range and Young Obito is vastly inferior in terms of reflexes.
> 
> So no, Kamui isn't instant. If it was, Gai would've been absorbed as no one can react to something instantaneous. Unless Base Gai is stronger than Kaguya.
> 
> Even then, Base Minato is a sensor ninja and likely sensed the build up in chakra for Obito's Kamui before it was used considering Kamui requires chakra build-up in the eye.



i agree was speakign trolls language 

my point was its as quick as itachi genjutsu which is clearly not instant

the excuse that oh itachi glances at minato and thats the end of the battle is entire BS

@Strat too much attention is being given to a crow which kishi didnt feel the need to name. All boss summons have names, it was a close up on a fodder little crow


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 12, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> The author went out of his way to show Ei being put into genjutsu only after fighting for hours, against 5 v3 susanoos, and having been distracted by tsunade.  The author even went out of his way to imply that Ei being caught in a genjutsu, even by madara, was something that was extremely unlikely and thus embarrasing for Ei since it was due to him being distracted by tsunade.
> 
> Any sharingan user who has more than 2 braincells always has genjutsu in mind as an option they can use to take out their opponent, and thus is always looking for opportunities to do so.
> 
> ...



But Urahararararek, Madara wasn't fighting seriously, so none of those examples count.  What is your response to this criticism?


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## Sans (Jun 12, 2015)

I think the true loser in any Itachi vs Minato thread is the BattleDome.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i agree was speakign trolls language
> 
> my point was its as quick as itachi genjutsu which is clearly not instant
> 
> the excuse that oh itachi glances at minato and thats the end of the battle is entire BS



 Oh no, I was merely agreeing with you there.


----------



## Sans (Jun 12, 2015)

Saying Itachi takes this fight in an eye-blink implies that he needs to open his eyes to win this battle.

What are you, a Minato-wanker???


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That would be pretty fucking funny actually.



Itachi's flying style.  But it shatters the "boss crow" party as it means this is how Itachi has to fly. 



Trolling said:


> - When has Minato sensed without the Kyuubi in him?
> 
> - Nope
> 
> ...




- Tobi. 

- Yup.

- When the need presented itself. If things change, he'll change up his approach.

- It means you can sense chakra. Two sensors were able to predict Amaterasu was coming before it came. 



NarutoX28 said:


> No. Munboy is just misinterpreting the entire battle. Tobi never once admitted to Sasuke being able to use Tsukyomi.



Except when he quoted Tsukuyomi's traits as Danzo expressed them, to explain why Izanagi failed. Alongside the other towering evidence of Tsukuyomi being in Sasuke's arsenal such as the clear artwork with the relevant MS eye.

These are big details to miss out in order to see it the way you're pitching it.

It is directly relevant to this battle because it implies Tsukuyomi's battle power against non Uchiha.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I mean... look carefully at the crow, the pillars, and the ceiling.
> 
> It's clearly not close up. It's a boss summon crow.
> 
> Which explains why it's by itself guarding the entrance.



boss summons have names
it didnt have a name. therefore its a fodder little crow


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## StickaStick (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The idea was that even without sensing, he managed to detect Obito's Kamui Warp implying that it's not instantaneous. Hell, the fact that he managed to duck at the right time implies it's not instantaneous. That's a reaction feat and you can't ignore that.


He didn't detect Obito was about to use Kamui, he baited him into warping his nunchucks. He didn't duck either, unless you consider him standing in the same exact spot while Naruto launches off his shoulder "ducking".



> And yes, Gai was in the process of being warped or else ducking would not have been needed.


If he were in the process of being warped then he would have started swirling like literally every other character that Obito had attempted to warp.



> If what you're suggesting is true, then Gai would have used it as an opportunity to counter-attack, but he did not, implying that Kamui was certainly within Gai's range.


Except that they did attempt a counter-attack, but with Naruto and his Rasengan instead of Gai.

Frankly to suggest that base Gai of all people could escape being warped if Obito got his hands on him is ridiculous considering that the only person to canonically have done so was Minato via FTG and himself having stated that if would come down to whose attack is an _instant faster_. Once Obito actually gets his hands on you and starts warping you're pretty much fucked, which is why opponents go to such great lengths to avoid being grabbed int he first place. Whether it's instantaneous or a sliver or two slower than that is redundant for the vast majority of the Naruto-verse.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> boss summons have names
> it didnt have a name. therefore its a fodder little crow



The Baku, the Clam, the Cerberus, etc. 

All badass "boss" summons without names.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The Baku, the Clam, the Cerberus, etc.
> 
> All badass "boss" summons without names.



 you got me there

not fair, I wanted to win 

though I don't see the point of itachi having a boss summon or why its relevant in this match up


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 12, 2015)

That was the first thing I said, but people argued about it.

And I was pointing out that he had a big summon.

-

I like to imagine it's better than the clam somehow


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That was the first thing I said, but people argued about it.
> 
> And I was pointing out that he had a big summon.
> 
> ...



lol the clam looks more bossy and went out like a champ. the crow sadly didn't 

do read my pain vs competitors OP. let me know what you understand in the OP. am really curious about something


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## Sadgoob (Jun 12, 2015)

To be fair though, the clam would be fodder 1v1 to EMS Sauce too. 

I'll check it out.


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## beyondsouske (Jun 12, 2015)

If were using  sick halfblind Itachi then Minato spams ftg until Itachi goes blind. 

Prime Itachi still loses the only thing Itachi has going for him is tsukiyomi, but once Minato tags him it's over.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except when he quoted Tsukuyomi's traits as Danzo expressed them, to explain why Izanagi failed. Alongside the other towering evidence of Tsukuyomi being in Sasuke's arsenal such as the clear artwork with the relevant MS eye.
> 
> These are big details to miss out in order to see it the way you're pitching it.
> 
> It is directly relevant to this battle because it implies Tsukuyomi's battle power against non Uchiha.



(2)

 Tobi was actually referring to this comparison made here when he stated that hence why he described Sasuke's genjutsu as weak and short afterwards to further confirm that statement. Danzo never once compared his Izanagi to Tsukyomi. Actually, that doesn't even make sense within the context of Danzo's statement here.

 So Tobi's statement pretty much was meant to confirm Danzo's, that Sasuke's genjutsu was literally nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukyomi.

 I suggest you reread the fight because Danzo never once compared Izanagi to Itachi's Tsukyomi.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> (2)
> 
> Tobi was actually referring to this comparison made here when he stated that hence why he described Sasuke's genjutsu as weak and short afterwards to further confirm that statement. Danzo never once compared his Izanagi to Tsukyomi. Actually, that doesn't even make sense within the context of Danzo's statement here.
> 
> ...



> Sasuke's Genjutsu failed
> Danzo commends Sasuke for getting him in an illusion
> He explains why it didn't work, it doesn't work like Tsukuyomi
> Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi eye
> Danzo asks why Izanagi failed
> Tobi used the quote citing Tsukuyomi
> Tobi's explanation had a lot of Tsukuyomi imagery from the relevant MS eye to the inverted panels

It isn't a hard process to follow. Many chapters later, Itachi showed Tsukuyomi like that when he saved Sasuke from the illusion.

Tobi's statement was there to answer Danzo's question. Danzo's question was why Izanagi failed. See the last 2 ">" to see what that implies. 

Lastly, when did I say Izanagi was compared to Tsukuyomi?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > Sasuke's Genjutsu failed
> > Danzo commends Sasuke for getting him in an illusion
> > He explains why it didn't work, it doesn't work like Tsukuyomi
> > Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi eye
> ...



That didn't even refute what I even said.

 You should refute my argument instead of claiming, "Tobi cited Tsukyomi," because I already refuted that argument.



> Lastly, when did I say Izanagi was compared to Tsukuyomi?



 (2)

 This is a comparison, I hope you do realize that as he claims that something is nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukyomi and that something as Danzo had stated before in the panel I presented, is Sasuke's genjutsu.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That didn't even refute what I even said.
> 
> You should refute my argument instead of claiming, "Tobi cited Tsukyomi," because I already refuted that argument.



Not adequately because you're assuming Danzo and Tobi refer to just a simple Genjutsu while totally ignoring the relevant imagery. Basically to make your argument work I need to ignore the fact the Tsukuyomi eye was used and emphasized a few times; I also need to ignore the inverted panels paired with that eye. The Tobi quote wraps it up nicely to show it is Tsukuyomi.

It seems like you got the interpretation right the first time. However the second time you've placed more emphasis on the words (while misinterpreting Danzo and Tobi's Tsukuyomi line) and totally ditched the imagery which is clear as day. 

Basically your argument makes no sense as it pays no attention to the imagery. Why should I focus on just the choice of words while completely misinterpreting the Tsukuyomi line?



> and dodged with ease.
> 
> This is a comparison, I hope you do realize that as he claims that something is nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukyomi and that something as Danzo had stated before in the panel I presented, is Sasuke's genjutsu.



Re-read, dude. 

Danzo asked a question; Tobi answered that question for the reader. 

Danzo initially said it (normal Genjutsu) was no match for Izanagi. Now Tobi said it (Izanagi) was no match for Tsukuyomi. Yes, you can say there was a comparison. However, Tobi just regurgitated Danzo's line in a different context. This was to show that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi, as reflected by the line that Izanagi was no match for Tsukuyomi while using the imagery to hammer it in that it was Tsukuyomi.

In short: Danzo compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Tobi compared Izanagi, in the manner Danzo used it, to Tsukuyomi.

Considering this is an important point, I'll reiterate here: why should I ignore the imagery, which combined with the text screams Tsukuyomi?


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

why is this thread still going. Dunno which is worse, this or the last minato vs tobirama fiasco. Either way, minato won in both threads.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Not adequately because you're assuming Danzo and Tobi refer to just a simple Genjutsu while totally ignoring the relevant imagery. Basically to make your argument work I need to ignore the fact the Tsukuyomi eye was used and emphasized a few times; I also need to ignore the inverted panels paired with that eye. The Tobi quote wraps it up nicely to show it is Tsukuyomi.



 Tsukyomi eye? Where are you getting this from?

 Inverted panels don't represent Tsukyomi. In all actuality, the artwork for Sasuke's Genjutsu isn't even remotely similar to Itachi's Tsukyomi due to Sasuke's Genjutsu being represented as mere illusions while Itachi's Tsukyomi inflicts psychological trauma.

 Tobi's quote mainly confirmed Danzo's statement in which Sasuke's Genjutsu paled in comparison to Itachi's Tsukyomi.



> It seems like you got the interpretation right the first time. However the second time you've placed more emphasis on the words (while misinterpreting Danzo and Tobi's Tsukuyomi line) and totally ditched the imagery which is clear as day.



 So, tell me what Tobi was referring to when he said, "Danzo, it's just like you said ..."

 Tobi basically confirmed Danzo's comparison between both user's genjutsu's, hence why Tobi claims that Sasuke's genjutsu is weak and short, but despite that, managed to overwhelm Danzo based on his superior perception and execution.



> Basically your argument makes no sense as it pays no attention to the imagery. Why should I focus on just the choice of words while completely misinterpreting the Tsukuyomi line?



 I refuted your argument on imagery, but you overlooked it.

 You should focus on statements as it allows the reader to understand the context of Tobi's statement. 




> Re-read, dude.
> 
> Danzo asked a question; Tobi answered that question for the reader.



 No, Tobi never answered his statement there. He answered Danzo's statement later where Tobi commented that Sasuke's weak genjutsu managed to catch Danzo into an illusion based on being an Uchiha with an MS in which Tobi then claims that Sasuke's superior to Danzo from an observer's perspective. The whole scan was to emphasize Sasuke's superiority and for Danzo not to underestimate Sasuke despite having multiple Sharingan.



> Danzo initially said it (normal Genjutsu) was no match for Izanagi. Now Tobi said it (Izanagi) was no match for Tsukuyomi. Yes, you can say there was a comparison. However, Tobi just regurgitated Danzo's line in a different context. This was to show that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi, as reflected by the line that Izanagi was no match for Tsukuyomi while using the imagery to hammer it in that it was Tsukuyomi.



 Danzo never once conceded to Izanagi being no match for Tsukyomi. He did however, claim that Sasuke's Genjutsu was weak and paled in comparison to Itachi's Tsukyomi and Tobi confirmed it by stating, "Danzo, it's just as you said ..."



> In short: Danzo compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Tobi compared Izanagi, in the manner Danzo used it, to Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Considering this is an important point, I'll reiterate here: why should I ignore the imagery, which combined with the text screams Tsukuyomi?



 You're making shit up. Danzo never compared Izanagi to Tsukyomi.

 Because the imagery used for both Itachi's Tsukyomi and Sasuke's Genjutsu aren't even similar.


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## Sorin (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato wins against sick Itachi. Moments like the shuriken incident against Sasuke aren't going to cut it against Minato. Mid difficulty. 

Against a healthy Itachi, it's another story. I can see Itachi giving hell to Minato. For me it's 50/50.  Itachi still has some drawbacks when using MS techs as evidenced in the skirmish against Kakashi and Jiraya back in part 1. Still, his techs are more diverse and hax than Minato's.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 13, 2015)

Oh man, this thread has become a runaway for Minato 

Its pretty evident Minato is on another level compared to the likes of HM Jiraiya/Itachi tier.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Tsukyomi eye? Where are you getting this from?
> 
> Inverted panels don't represent Tsukyomi. In all actuality, the artwork for Sasuke's Genjutsu isn't even remotely similar to Itachi's Tsukyomi due to Sasuke's Genjutsu being represented as mere illusions while Itachi's Tsukyomi inflicts psychological trauma.
> 
> Tobi's quote mainly confirmed Danzo's statement in which Sasuke's Genjutsu paled in comparison to Itachi's Tsukyomi.



The eye used to execute Tsukuyomi; just like the one used on Bee. 

Inverted panels _with_ the other relevant cues indicate Tsukuyomi. You're trying to discredit the idea by focusing on just inverted panels, not what they came with. 

Read again:
> "Why is Izanagi not working?"
> "It is as you said, it is no match for Itachi's Tsukuyomi"

Tobi *answered* Sasuke's question. "It" was Izanagi. This was after Danzo showed that getting him in an illusion is probably not possible. Obviously when he got caught the first time, he stayed on guard to ensure another normal Genjutsu won't work. As per Danzo, only one illusion would work.


> I refuted your argument on imagery, but you overlooked it.
> 
> You should focus on statements as it allows the reader to understand the context of Tobi's statement.



You didn't refute anything at all. You should focus on statements *and* imagery. Your approach provides an inaccurate picture as you're totally ignoring imagery. While misinterpreting Tobi's quote.



> You're making shit up. Danzo never compared Izanagi to Tsukyomi.
> 
> Because the imagery used for both Itachi's Tsukyomi and Sasuke's Genjutsu aren't even similar.



My friend, you have officially confused yourself. 
_" In short: Danzo compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Tobi compared Izanagi, in the manner Danzo used it, to Tsukuyomi."_

Show me how you processed that line as Danzo comparing Tsukuyomi to Izanagi.

Itachi's Tsukuyomi: relevant MS eye followed by inverted panels when appropriate, not always though. When the illusion fails, Itachi holds the Tsukuyomi eye.

Sasuke's Tsukuyomi: relevant MS eye followed by inverted panels when appropriate, not always though. When the illusion fails, Sasuke holds the Tsukuyomi eye.
Bonus, with Danzo: relevant MS eye emphasized -- Tobi confirms Tsukuyomi -- panels used when appropriate i.e. when what happened was being explained. In case you missed it, the penultimate link shows the relevant MS eye being emphasised _again_ and the last link shows the MS pattern when Tobi said "before you noticed". 

All the imagery and words point to Tsukuyomi. You seriously have to go the extra mile to say Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi. Just like you have to go the extra mile to say healthy Itachi isn't just a sick Itachi who doesn't cough blood and fails to dodge attacks such as the shuriken that hit him.

You realise how much you need to ignore to assert Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi? All this just to prove the outdated notion that Tsukuyomi can only be beaten by Uchiha members, such as Minato esp Bijuu Minato; all this to exclude Sasuke showing how false that is. 

Basically I'm not entertaining the Itachi arguments which require me to ignore or distort the context of a lot of things in the manga.


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## Kaiser (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato would win. Itachi's only chance is genjutsu but the moment Minato uses a clone and the risk of getting caught by genjutsu suddenly vanish. Not only Itachi won't know who to attack, but if either is caught by one, the other will break him out instantly. Minato being a sensor doesn't help either since he would always be aware of his surroundings and could even sense build up of eye techniques. And other than that, all Itachi's techniques would be easily dodged and without Susanoo, he'd be blitzed with his superior shunshin or FTG+Rasengan combo(with maybe even SM), a Susanoo that takes a lot of chakra to him, so becoming a game of endurance where Minato will come out of the top. Not to mention that Susanoo can also be countered with FTG swap and if he summons Pa/Ma, the fight is practically over


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The eye used to execute Tsukuyomi; just like the one used on Bee.
> 
> Inverted panels _with_ the other relevant cues indicate Tsukuyomi. You're trying to discredit the idea by focusing on just inverted panels, not what they came with.



 You haven't proved that Sasuke's genjutsu used on Bee was Tsukyomi. If it were, Bee would've suffered psychological trauma which is a key component of Tsukyomi.

 What other relevant cues were there? Your main argument revolves around the inverted panels. Besides that, you haven't presented any other evidence of it being Tsukyomi. The inverted panels alone do not imply that it's Tsukyomi. The trauma accompanied by it does as Kisame states that the main strength of Tsukyomi is the breakdown of one's spirit accompanied by time manipulation. Sasuke's didn't even accomplish this, all it did was paralyze him with a mere illusion which is something Itachi's base Sharingan genjutsu accomplished against Bee.



> Read again:
> > "Why is Izanagi not working?"
> > "It is as you said, it is no match for Itachi's Tsukuyomi"



 And that in anyway implies that Danzo stated Izanagi was no match for Tsukyomi? Honestly, the key words are, "It's just as you said," which refers to Danzo's comparison between Sasuke's Genjutsu to Itachi's Tsukyomi as Danzo stated that Sasuke's Genjutsu was incomparable compared to Itachi's Tsukyomi which compliments Tobi's statement perfectly.



> Tobi *answered* Sasuke's question. "It" was Izanagi. This was after Danzo showed that getting him in an illusion is probably not possible. Obviously when he got caught the first time, he stayed on guard to ensure another normal Genjutsu won't work. As per Danzo, only one illusion would work.



*If you fight with only one person... this matter could quickly be resolved*, but... you're about to fight many shinobi's and that would take to long, more will come...

 He actually answered it here. The main idea revolving around that situation was that Sasuke's superior perception, execution, and natural superiority in using the Sharingan is what allowed Sasuke to overcome Danzo's Izanagi. Danzo merely underestimated Sasuke's capabilities, esp. when his Genjutsu paled in comparison to Itachi's Tsukyomi and that was his downfall.

 You haven't convinced me that "It" was Izanagi, especially when that "It" was associated with what Danzo had stated before in comparison to Tsukyomi which was Sasuke's Genjutsu not Izanagi. I truly hope you're not suggesting that Tsukyomi is a weak Genjutsu. 

*If you fight with only one person... this matter could quickly be resolved*, but... you're about to fight many shinobi's and that would take to long, more will come...

 And actually, the bottom panels suggested there was an interval of time that Sasuke could take advantage of with his weak Genjutsu. Danzo could easily break through it, but it took a while to actually perceive it. Sasuke using another genjutsu earlier would've been meaningless with Izanagi activated.



> You didn't refute anything at all. You should focus on statements *and* imagery. Your approach provides an inaccurate picture as you're totally ignoring imagery. While misinterpreting Tobi's quote.



 All right, you didn't refute my argument on the imagery, so I won't even respond to this.




> My friend, you have officially confused yourself.
> _" In short: Danzo compared normal Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Tobi compared Izanagi, in the manner Danzo used it, to Tsukuyomi."_



 Except Tobi was confirming what Danzo had stated, so that logic doesn't even work.



> Show me how you processed that line as Danzo comparing Tsukuyomi to Izanagi.



 There is clearly some sort of misunderstanding between us because I never once implied that.



> Itachi's Tsukuyomi: relevant MS eye followed by inverted panels when appropriate, not always though. When the illusion fails, Itachi holds the Tsukuyomi eye.
> 
> 
> Sasuke's Tsukuyomi: relevant MS eye followed by inverted panels when appropriate, not always though. When the illusion fails, Sasuke holds the Tsukuyomi eye.
> Bonus, with Danzo: relevant MS eye emphasized -- Tobi confirms Tsukuyomi -- panels used when appropriate i.e. when what happened was being explained. In case you missed it, the penultimate link shows the relevant MS eye being emphasised _again_ and the last link shows the MS pattern when Tobi said "before you noticed".



 That argument falls apart when you take into consideration that Bee never broke the genjutsu the moment when Sasuke clutched his eye.

 Furthermore, Sasuke never actively used genjutsu on Bee, he merely trapped Bee in an illusion which the Hachibi broke him out of it whereas Sasuke literally overcame Itachi's Tsukyomi while Itachi was actively using Tsukyomi. Those aren't comparable scenarios.

 Tobi's explanation as I stated before confirmed Danzo's statement on Sasuke's genjutsu being inferior to Itachi's Tsukyomi, and then proceeds to explain how Sasuke managed to defeat Danzo with an illusion despite that. You yourself haven't even proven that Danzo stated that Izanagi was no match for Itachi's Tsukyomi, so unless you do, your point is moot.

 And finally, Sasuke's right eye being his Tsukyomi eye? It's more or less implied to be his dominant eye while using Genjutsu as he used Sharingan Genjutsu amplified by his EMS as shown here: 
explained

 His right eye isn't his "Tsukyomi" eye. I don't know where you got that idea from.




> All the imagery and words point to Tsukuyomi. You seriously have to go the extra mile to say Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi. Just like you have to go the extra mile to say healthy Itachi isn't just a sick Itachi who doesn't cough blood and fails to dodge attacks such as the shuriken that hit him.



 Actually, you'd have to go the extra mile to imply that Sasuke has Tsukyomi.

 The words don't even point towards Tsukyomi unless you can find a statement where Danzo compares Izanagi to Itachi's Tsukyomi.

 The imagery factor is meaningless when the images that are displayed during both of their genjutsu's are completely different. 



> You realise how much you need to ignore to assert Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi? All this just to prove the outdated notion that Tsukuyomi can only be beaten by Uchiha members, such as Minato esp Bijuu Minato; all this to exclude Sasuke showing how false that is.
> 
> Basically I'm not entertaining the Itachi arguments which require me to ignore or distort the context of a lot of things in the manga.



 Tsukyomi has only been shown to be overcome by Uchiha members. Problem? 

 I'm actually not even sure what the relevance of Minato has to do with this.


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## Harbour (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato wins without a sweat.


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## Bookworm (Jun 13, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi's flying style.  But it shatters the "boss crow" party as it means this is how Itachi has to fly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- Show me a link

- I said nope to the idea of me seeing Minato countering Shunshin Genjutsu combo, why you say yup? That's not a yup-able statement.

- As far as Sasuke having Tsukuyomi is concerned I doubt it. The artwork being inverted may mean that genjutsu used in MS is sometimes inverted. Sasuke holding his eye may be because he used Sharingan genjutsu with MS.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

Sasuke clutched his eye after merely using 3 Tomoe Genjutsu on C. I doubt clutching his eye is an indicator of Tsukyomi in the way MunBoy implies. 

 General consensus is that Sasuke is unable to use Tsukyomi and I wonder why.


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## Six (Jun 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke clutched his eye after merely using 3 Tomoe Genjutsu on C. I doubt clutching his eye is an indicator of Tsukyomi in the way MunBoy implies.
> 
> General consensus is that Sasuke is unable to use Tsukyomi and I wonder why.


I bet he thinks Kakashi could use it to.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I bet he thinks Kakashi could use it to.



 He also seems to believe that Taka Sasuke has inferior chakra reserves compared to Sick Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

^ 
no way he did not say that. omg did he?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Tsukyomi has only been shown to be overcome by Uchiha members. Problem?
> 
> I'm actually not even sure what the relevance of Minato has to do with this.



I'm not going to spend any more posts on this. You're more focused on the text, I'm focused on the text and the clear visuals which is supported by all the other evidence from other chapters to the databooks. If we're still going to stick to our guns, then there's no real point in carrying on a never ending debate. 

Minato's relevance: Bee beat Tsukuyomi, meaning Minato can too.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

^ bee had a bijuu partner 
minato does not


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 15, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm not going to spend any more posts on this. You're more focused on the text, I'm focused on the text and the clear visuals which is supported by all the other evidence from other chapters to the databooks. If we're still going to stick to our guns, then there's no real point in carrying on a never ending debate.



 Already countered your imagery argument, but yeah, you're stubborn and clearly misinterpret the text, so this debate is pointless.



> Minato's relevance: Bee beat Tsukuyomi, meaning Minato can too.



 Is that why Naruto shat himself at the idea of Bee handling Tsukyomi or Amaterasu?


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