# 5 KAGE vs MADARA (Alive no rinnegan, no hashirama cells)



## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

This battle is here because I'm sick of the fandom. The 5 kage vs Madara battle could have been great but it was executed poorly and people believe that madara could beat all 5 kage (A, Garra, Mei, oonoki, tsunade.)

Setting: 5 kage vs Madara  battlefeild

Mindset: Kage: Bloodlusted, Leve headed
                 Madara: IC

Knowledge:
Kage have full knowledge of Madras offense.  including the perfect susanoo and come out full swing from the top. Meaning the hidden mist is on the field, tsunade is all 100 healings up a is V2 etc
Madara has no prior knowledge of tsunades strength or 100 healings justsu or mei  boil release. 
Also EACH KAGE HAS FULL ARMS meaning shuriken, kunai, flak jackets and food pills.
Madara has NO weapons 

Restrictions:
KURAMA (because kurama is with naruto)
No hashirama cells and all woodstyle jutsu (madara)
No rinnegan or rinnegan afforded techniques I.e. (ninjutsu absorption) 
Chracters are Only allowed to use techniques that were displayed using in the manga up until the end of the 5 kage vs madara battle.. Meaning don't say Madara can uae shadow clones because he has not used them in the manga same goes for the kages 


Now lets begin. I think the five kage take this mid to high difficulty. (I feel the flames lol). Hear me out. The kage vs madara made no sense because the battle lacked one thing strategy. In this case madara is alive and uchias are not the best when it comes to long battles as techniques take bug chakra . Madara is alive and taking hits from anyone will hurt or kill him. He can get speed blitzed by A, punched by tsunade or get boiled by mei.  Now he can use susanoo but it would have to be full size Nd heres my arguement for that... the full susanoo is cool. But tell me... how can it stand up to theparticle style BEAM? Its been shown that  pArticle style can disintegrate susanoo why cant it then rip off limbs of the perfect susanoo. Take out the legs and madara is in free fall and considering madara is without the rinnegan he cant absorb it. 
What if tsunade summons katsuyu Nd has it coil each kage  and it runs ul the full susanoo kage in tow oonoki can weigh it down or lighten it, I cant see that susanoo being heavier than the meteor while  tsunade and a pound away  it 

There's so much more I can think of but what do you think? And remember dont go saying shit like "madara would use substitution jutsu etc) no characters are only alowed jutsu they had used in the manga uo until the end if the 5 kage vs madara battle

Who wins?


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## Kyu (Aug 23, 2015)

Is Madara toying with them or he is actually making an effort to kill them?

Because a swift PS sword slash or summoning Kurama equals an easy win for him.


On the flip side, he'll pretty much shit in his own mouth if he excessively screws around like edo Madara did.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 23, 2015)

Perfect Susano'o was only as much of a threat to the Five Kage as it was because they'd already used up all of their chakra. They had nothing left to fight it with. 

In this scenario they won't have used nearly as much chakra because Madara won't be using Mokuton or Rinnegan. When Perfect Susano'o comes out, Onoki can weigh it down enough for it to either collapse, or move so slowly that its unable to dish out any damage. Then, once Tsunade starts chakra pumping him with Byakugou, Jinton should be large enough to bypass Susano'o and hit Madara. 

Even if jinton fails, Madara is still wasting his time and chakra maintaining the Susano'o whenever its been weighed down and made ineffective. He wouldn't be able to do anymore than stalemate by camping inside of it.

And if he should drop his Susano'o shroud out of arrogance, he gets overwhelmed by the Kage very quickly. Mei counters his katons, Onoki and Tsunade can plough through his lower level Susano'o defenses, and Ei will trash him in close quarters. Gaara's shields stop any and all of his long ranged attacks. 

The Five Kage are going to win.​​


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## Ejenku (Aug 23, 2015)

I think Madara still wins with perfect Susanoo but the kages will have full knowledge on katons and susanoo so he's going to have win with nothing less than extreme difficulty.. But he has to treat them like they are threats to him. I'm not counting Kurama as he'd stomp them even harder than he did as an edo if he summons him.  If he's fooling around like he was as an edo he will end up getting hit by Jinton,lighted weighted A or Tsunade.. His lower Susanoo forms won't cut it here due to Onoki,Tsunade and A combo attacks.

If Onoki/Gaara/A are full power here and Tsunade summons katsuya he's going to have his luck cut out for him with his only EMS feats have been him using Perfect Susanoo with Kurama.. Katsuya can constantly keep the other kages charged up and healed with a slug on each of their backs. The rest of Katsuya can just be a meatshield and I doubt all of her can be killed with swings from perfect susanoo as she simply splits up into smaller pieces and regens.

Madara will have to take out Onoki first and Tsunade second as she can be a battery for him to super charge jinton. Madara's best bet would be to amp up a perfect shroud. ignore the others and go straight for Onoki to beat him down. Madara will have to also survive Gaara yanking him out of Susanoo before the perfect form not sure what his counter would be without preta path,his war fan and no knowledge. Going for Perfect Susanoo can be countered by Onoki making Susanoo heavy and Tsunade amping Onoki up for a mega jinton towards the head of susanoo.. Gaara/Katsuya can be meatshield and Mei can put up the mist.


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## Altair21 (Aug 23, 2015)

A single PS slash still trashes them. Unless you restrict that then the 5 Kage will never have a chance of beating Madara.


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## iJutsu (Aug 23, 2015)

Madara wins. Madara literally summoned PS while being blasted by Oonoki powered up by Tsunade and didn't get hurt. Nothing in the 5 kage's arsenal can hurt him.


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## Alucardemi (Aug 23, 2015)

Alive Madara can likely kill them in CQC with Susanoo hands, genjutsu, his shunshin and his Fire Release: Hiding in Ash and Dust Technique.


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## The Undying (Aug 23, 2015)

An alive blind Madara was stated to be closer to his full power than his Edo Rinnegan counterpart, and this statement likely includes his base stats since he was suddenly casually busting open Hashirama's Myojinmon gates and blitzing SM Naruto. In turn, Edo Madara was toying with the Gokage to the point that he was at times deliberately _allowing_ them to come up with counters for his attacks just to see what they were capable of.

If this version of Madara fully intends to kill them, I have absolutely no doubt that he could do it without even using PS. He wouldn't be pushed to that point.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 23, 2015)

Are you talking about ems madara or blind madara? If its the former, the kages are one shotted the moment PS comes out.
If its the latter, the kages thrash him.


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Kurama solo.


he can't considering kurama is with naruto... NEXT


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

The Undying said:


> An alive blind Madara was stated to be closer to his full power than his Edo Rinnegan counterpart, and this statement likely includes his base stats since he was suddenly casually busting open Hashirama's Myojinmon gates and blitzing SM Naruto. In turn, Edo Madara was toying with the Gokage to the point that he was at times deliberately _allowing_ them to come up with counters for his attacks just to see what they were capable of.
> 
> If this version of Madara fully intends to kill them, I have absolutely no doubt that he could do it without even using PS. He wouldn't be pushed to that point.


@the undying. that MAKES NO SENSE SHOW ME THE SCAN WHERE IT SAYS THAT


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Is Madara toying with them or he is actually making an effort to kill them?
> 
> Because a swift PS sword slash or summoning Kurama equals an easy win for him.
> 
> ...


you tell me. if madara is in character which he is isn't it his thing to toy with his opponent Tsunade is bloodlusted here so, that means she starts out with everything equipped . if she charges madara nd he tries to use susanoo itll only be a ribcage wich Tsunade I believe could have broken If madara didn't jump away if he takes to the air a well targeted jinton gg's him ubder these conditions he cannot win. madara isn't going ps againist anyone but hashirama out the gate, the ONLY REASON HE DID THE 5 KAGE THE WAY HE DID IS BECAUSE THEY RAN OUT OF CHAKRA


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

iJutsu said:


> Madara wins. Madara literally summoned PS while being blasted by Oonoki powered up by Tsunade and didn't get hurt. Nothing in the 5 kage's arsenal can hurt him.


again, NO HE DIDNT he was standing behind the jinton!!! jinton destroyed 25 susanoo, nd everyone was on their last bit of chakra. don't you think a FULL POWER TSUNADE AIDING oonoki jinton would be about the size of PERFECT SUSANOO?? UGH you people kill me and the perfect susanoo is a lot of thngsa but its not that fast


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 23, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Perfect Susano'o was only as much of a threat to the Five Kage as it was because they'd already used up all of their chakra. They had nothing left to fight it with.
> 
> In this scenario they won't have used nearly as much chakra because Madara won't be using Mokuton or Rinnegan. When Perfect Susano'o comes out,* Onoki can weigh it down enough for it to either collapse, or move so slowly that its unable to dish out any damage. *Then, once Tsunade starts chakra pumping him with Byakugou, Jinton should be large enough to bypass Susano'o and hit Madara.
> 
> ...



Arguments like this can't even come close to being taken seriously by anyone who reads the Manga when manga and Kishi made it clear that PS>Gokage regardless of their reserves. From the feats based perspective, your argument can't be taken seriously for the simple fact that you assume Madara will stand there in PS while Onoki tries to make his Susanoo heavy.

What would Madara be doing while Onoki flies/walks toward his Susanoo aiming to use weighted boulder jutsu? Twiddling his thumbs? Come on now. If Onoki tries it he gets cleaved in half. There is a reason he had his hands up until PS came out, where he decided to drop his hands to the ground. Showing that he could offer no resistance whatsoever.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 23, 2015)

Madara still crushes them. Every single accomplishment they made against him was because he let them do it, and he only fucked around because he was an Edo and knew he couldn't die.

He won't be so lax here, and he especially won't let them have any openings unless he feels like it. Either way PS comes out and then they die.



Neko White said:


> Chracters are Only allowed to use techniques that were displayed using in the manga up until the end of the 5 kage vs madara battle.. Meaning don't say Madara can uae shadow clones because he has not used them in the manga same goes for the kages


Madara has used Shadow Clones though. He used it to help fake his death by replacing himself in his coffin.



> In this case madara is alive and uchias are not the best when it comes to long battles as techniques take bug chakra .



Madara fighting Hashirama and a bunch of other Senju for a full day says otherwise.



> Madara is alive and taking hits from anyone will hurt or kill him. He can get speed blitzed by A, punched by tsunade or get boiled by mei.



Susano'o is a thing, and he'll simply use it to block their offensive.



> Now he can use susanoo but it would have to be full size Nd heres my arguement for that... the full susanoo is cool. But tell me... how can it stand up to theparticle style BEAM? Its been shown that  pArticle style can disintegrate susanoo why cant it then rip off limbs of the perfect susanoo. Take out the legs and madara is in free fall and considering madara is without the rinnegan he cant absorb it.



Did you forget he beat Muu and Onoki, the only two Jinton users, at the same time?

The only threat to him is if Tsunade charges it up, and even then PS says hello.



> *What if tsunade summons katsuyu Nd has it coil each kage  and it runs ul the full susanoo kage in tow oonoki* can weigh it down or lighten it, I cant see that susanoo being heavier than the meteor while  tsunade and a pound away  it



The bold completely lost me. 

I do get the weighing part, except that requires Madara to just stand there and do nothing to work, and even then, deactivating and re activating Susano'o counters it.



> There's so much more I can think of but what do you think? And remember dont go saying shit like "madara would use substitution jutsu etc) no characters are only alowed jutsu they had used in the manga uo until the end if the 5 kage vs madara battle
> 
> Who wins?


Substitution no. Shadow Clone feint, yes.


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## Bonly (Aug 23, 2015)

PS is still gonna screw over the Gokage members so the question is will Madara bring it out before it's to late which depends on how Madara plays things out because as we know he does love himself a good battle though I'd lean towards Madara coming out more times then not.



VolatileSoul said:


> Madara has used Shadow Clones though. He used it to help fake his death by replacing himself in his coffin.



Madara has never used Shadow clones before(closest thing would be limbo or wood clone). IIRC Madara didn't fake his death by using a clone, he actually did die but he used Izanagi to bring himself back to live.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 23, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Arguments like this can't even come close to being taken seriously by anyone who reads the Manga when manga and Kishi made it clear that PS>Gokage regardless of their reserves.



No such thing was ever implied. They were taken aback by how large it was, and in their current conditions were incapable of retaliating. They never fought Perfect Susano'o healthy, so the comparison you're speaking of was never even addressed in the manga. 



> From the feats based perspective, your argument can't be taken seriously for the simple fact that you assume Madara will stand there in PS while Onoki tries to make his Susanoo heavy.
> 
> What would Madara be doing while Onoki flies/walks toward his Susanoo aiming to use weighted boulder jutsu? Twiddling his thumbs? Come on now. If Onoki tries it he gets cleaved in half. *There is a reason he had his hands up until PS came out, where he decided to drop his hands to the ground. Showing that he could offer no resistance whatsoever.*



Please don't try to degrade my comprehension of the manga whenever you yourself have blatantly misunderstood it. Onoki raised his hands in an attempt to charge another Jinton, but failed because _he didn't have any chakra left_. Not because he was giving up.

And anyway, Onoki doesn't need to fly at Susano'o head on. With doton he has methods of _travelling through the ground_ for transportation. He can do that to get close to Susano'o's feet, and from there he just needs to hold onto it for a while until it can no longer move.​​


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## Blu-ray (Aug 23, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Madara has never used Shadow clones before(closest thing would be limbo or wood clone). IIRC Madara didn't fake his death by using a clone, he actually did die but he used Izanagi to bring himself back to live.



I meant after he used Izanagi. He used a Kage Bunshin as a fake corpse after he revived.

Bottom left panel.


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## Bonly (Aug 23, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> I meant after he used Izanagi. He used a Kage Bunshin as a fake corpse after he revived.
> 
> Bottom left panel.



Well butter me up and call biscuit he did do that huh. Welp ignore me then, my bad lol


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Show me the scan where madara has used shadow clones. Also tge thing youre all missing is oonoki can fly!! All he has to do is hold on to susanoo. By latching on to its back kind of like the way chaotzu from dbz did nappa. Thats if madara even goes PS at all


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

Neko White said:


> he can't considering kurama is with naruto... NEXT



Except that since Naruto isn't in the match, it isn't the case.

Or rather, whetever Naruto being here or not is irrevelant since for the sake of battle we're using every ability a character (or a version of the character) has show even if it shouldn't be possible.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

Neko White said:


> Show me the scan where madara has used shadow clones.



He actually did.



> Also tge thing youre all missing is oonoki can fly!! All he has to do is hold on to susanoo. By latching on to its back kind of like the way chaotzu from dbz did nappa. Thats if madara even goes PS at all



Flight is irrevelant when Madara's most powerful techniques have long range.


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## Amol (Aug 23, 2015)

I have one question.
What will happen if Onoki fires Jinton(supercharged by Tsunade) towards PS?
Or Onoki fires a fine beam of Jinton at PS.
Would it make a see through hole in it?
If not then why not.
I never understood why PS is invulnerable against Jinton (atleast that is what most think here ).


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## Altair21 (Aug 23, 2015)

Why do people ignore the fact that Madara's PS can fly? 



> Madara's perfect Susano'o is called Perfect Form Susano'o (完成体　須佐能乎, Kanseitai Susano'o), and he's listed as the sole user. It manifests massive amounts of chakra that surrounds the user, taking on the shape of a martial god that dwarfs mountains. It mentions that the difference between this and the normal version is that it perfectly forms an entire body. *It also mentions that it's clad in armor that can be reshaped into wings, allowing the user to fly.*



From DB IV


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Well ill be Damn haha ill grant the kage bushin even tho I have  never seen him use it in battle.


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Im sure oonoki flies faster. Garra can fly and help levitate the other kages as well... onnoki can lighten ppl to make them fly and JINTON WOULD SLICE RIGHT THROUGH PERFECT SUSANOO!!!!!!


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Except that since Naruto isn't in the match, it isn't the case.
> 
> Or rather, whetever Naruto being here or not is irrevelant since for the sake of battle we're using every ability a character (or a version of the character) has show even if it shouldn't be possible.


I restricted kurama


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

Neko White said:


> Im sure oonoki flies faster. Garra can fly and help levitate the other kages as well... onnoki can lighten ppl to make them fly and JINTON WOULD SLICE RIGHT THROUGH PERFECT SUSANOO!!!!!!



And PS can fly as well so.


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Show me a scan where madaras susanoo has flown. And if oonoki takes to the air im sure he can hit madaras susanoo with a jinton beam while airborne


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## Alucardemi (Aug 23, 2015)

Neko White said:


> Show me a scan where madaras susanoo has flown. And if oonoki takes to the air im sure he can hit madaras susanoo with a jinton beam while airborne



Madara's PS Susanoo tanks 100% Kurama Bijuudamas with no damage. He'll be fine.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

Neko White said:


> Show me a scan where madaras susanoo has flown. And if oonoki takes to the air im sure he can hit madaras susanoo with a jinton beam while airborne



Altair literally posted the DB entry a few post above.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Madara's PS Susanoo tanks 100% Kurama Bijuudamas with no damage. He'll be fine.



Jinton ignore durability. Plus Madara's PS only took the explosion.


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## Alucardemi (Aug 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Jinton ignore durability.



Perhaps for normal atomic structures, but how can we say the same for a chakra construct and barrier like Susanoo? I mean, I assume Jinton still requires the energy to break the energy of the atomic bonds of what it hits -- why couldn't Madara's Susanoo just be too energetic for that?

Like its been said before, I believe there's a reason why Oonoki lowered his arms once he saw that. I don't know if Jinton can disperse the bonds of pure chakra stronger than its own.



Hachibi said:


> Plus Madara's PS only took the explosion.



I've no idea what you're trying to say here.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2015)

> I've no idea what you're trying to say here.



I don't either.


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## Alucardemi (Aug 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I don't either.



Fair enough.

Here's some Armstrong to off-set it


*Spoiler*: __ 



[youtube]My75o38w8Ys[/youtube]


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## Arles Celes (Aug 23, 2015)

PS destroys them still.

Though if Madara is too arrogant to bring it early and through great teamwork the kages manage a successful Jinton shot then he might not live it through without edo regeneration or Preta.


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Jinton destroyed 25 susanoos. It can eat through madaras perfect susanoo. He'd be a gigantic target he doesnt have rinnegan so he cant absorb it. If SUSANOO can tank jinton then why did madara jump out of its way when theother 25 were destroyed instead of making a susanoo shield. Oonoki and the others ran out of chakra!!! Madaras chakra was infinate whatever they threw his way he absorbed but he cant do that here in fact susanoo may be his worst option here


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Also madara is in cjracter meaning he'll likely fight the way he did during the battle and take the kages lightly.


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## nmwn93 (Aug 23, 2015)

Excuse the typos im using my phone and it's the worst


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## The Undying (Aug 23, 2015)

Neko White said:


> @the undying. that MAKES NO SENSE SHOW ME THE SCAN WHERE IT SAYS THAT











There's a limit to how much power the Edo Tensei can accommodate, even with the level of precision Orochimaru and Kabuto have used it at. Madara, Hashirama and even Tobirama were confirmed to cross that limit with their original strength.



Neko White said:


> Show me the scan where madara has used shadow clones.


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 23, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> [
> 
> *No such thing was ever implied.* They were taken aback by how large it was, and in their current conditions were incapable of retaliating. They never fought Perfect Susano'o healthy, so the comparison you're speaking of was never even addressed in the manga.



[] [] Onoki gave the moment he saw it. Tsunade can't even believe that Hashirama fought against something that powerful. If the power is that overwhelming to her then chances are that the Gokage's combined power is nothing to it.



> Please don't try to degrade my comprehension of the manga whenever you yourself have blatantly misunderstood it. Onoki raised his hands in an attempt to charge another Jinton, but failed because _he didn't have any chakra left_. Not because he was giving up.



 Not sure if bias is driving you here, but the scan above shows Perfect Susanoo in it's initial state, Onoki has his hands up ready to go, the exact moment PS is stablized he puts his hands down and has an expression of surprise in the first panel. If Manga wanted to display that Onoki had no chakra left, Manga would've shown him try to charge up Jinton, but fail like it's done in the past. Instead, Onoki doesn't even attempt to charge his attack.

Did he give up? No. I'll admit that. But Manga made it clear which party was superior.

I wonder why? Doesn't really take much thought to reach the obvious conclusion. Not to mention Onoki still had enough chakra to do *something*, given by his "I'm not giving up" statement.



> And anyway, Onoki doesn't need to fly at Susano'o head on. With doton he has methods of _travelling through the ground_ for transportation. He can do that to get close to Susano'o's feet, and from there he just needs to hold onto it for a while until it can no longer move.[/indent][/justify]



This is probably the funniest part of your post. If you actually believe that Onoki will pull this off against Madara then it's clear some sort of bias is driving your argumentation here.

1. Madara's sword swing rips apart the ground without even touching it, and you are suggesting that Onoki uses that ground to travel? 

2. Madara is 100% aware of Onoki's technique. Sharingan can see chakra through things like walls and rock formations. Yet somehow Onoki will get the jump on Madara and touch his Susanoo before Madara swings his blade and ends his life?

Let's be 100% serious here.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 23, 2015)

This ends with PS coming out and the Kages and their half of landscape being removed from the planet


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2015)

> Madara: IC


He is likely to lose because of his arrogance. 
I think Madara in the manga was given too much unfair advantages in that battle...

1- He has unlimited amount of chakra as his ET is special. Unlike the Kages limited amount of chakra.
2- Gaara, Onoki, and Mei were just finishing their battle. Tsunade & A got damage from the teleportation jutsu. 
3-  A missing 1 arm, and Onoki being too old. 
4- Madara's first attack with the Meteors did a lot of damage to Onoki and Gaara, while madara simple regenerated.
5- any hit he gets, he simply regenerated from, like when Onoki destroyed half of his body.

I really doubt without his special and stronger than normal ET that madara would be able to use 25 clones with
Susanoo to be honest.  As Kabuto stated, that Madara was stronger than he has ever been before...


Depends on Tsunade's full chakra and how much she can increase Onoki's jinton, they can potentially win imo...


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2015)

> [=The Undying;54225710]


wrong translation

Madara is only talking about feeling the battle so to speak



Kabuto's ET > Oro's




> There's a limit to how much power the Edo Tensei can accommodate, even with the level of precision Orochimaru and Kabuto have used it at. *Madara*, Hashirama and even Tobirama were confirmed to cross that limit with their original strength.


wrong.

Only the 4 Edo Hokages are weaker (only by a little) because Oro's ET is weaker than Kabuto's.
this one

and even among Kabuto's ET, Madara got even more special ET. Those are for Kabuto's regular ET


and Madara is completely different


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## The Undying (Aug 24, 2015)

Hashirama knew and fought with Madara personally. Kabuto had no idea firsthand how strong Madara was. Hashirama is ultimately a better source than Kabuto, so your point doesn't hold any water.

Also, there's no reason for Orochimaru's improved ET to be inferior to Kabuto's. Edo Hashirama was fighting on par with Edo Madara.


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## Trojan (Aug 24, 2015)

Except Hashirama does not know anything. Are u seriously suggesting that Hashirama who died thinking he killed
Madara, know about the modifications that happened to Madara more than Kabuto and Madara himself? 

Even when Madara told him he was going to take another chunk of him, Hashirama had no idea what he
was talking about
increasing the distance




> Hashirama is ultimately a better source than Kabuto, so your point doesn't hold any water


Pffff, lol no. Hashiram died and had no  idea what happened after his death. Even if we "arguably" went with you
that he knows better than Kabuto who fixed Madara's body, are you suggesting that he knows about madara more
than madara knows about himself? 

because Madara clearly does not agree with Hashirama. Hence, his statement





> Also, there's no reason for Orochimaru's improved ET to be inferior to Kabuto's. Edo Hashirama was fighting on par with Edo Madara.


Yes there is. Kabuto summons them at full power or beyond their full power (Madara). Oro on the other hand
summons them a bit weaker...


as for the battle with Hashirama. Alive madara needed Kurama to keep up with Hashirama. Edo Madara however was taking on SM Hashirama
without using Kurama or even the wood jutsu he stole, nor even his Rinnegan powers (besides the black rods only)


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## The Undying (Aug 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except Hashirama does not know anything.



>dialogue clearly states Madara has been revived at full power
>statement comes from someone who has more experience fighting Madara than anyone else
>"But but but Hashirama is just talking out of his ass!"

Yes, because Kishimoto totally put that in there to deliberately pull everyone's leg. 



Funny how you conveniently omit the two panels right after that:



Completely shoots down the notion that Kabuto knew the extent of Madara's strength when alive. But of course you knew that, which is why you cropped it out.



Hussain said:


> because Madara clearly does not agree with Hashirama.



>Madara was only referring to his full power _as an Edo_, later states he can now fight unimpeded when he's revived
>Hussain is mentally incapable of reconciling two statements that don't even contradict each other because context is an utterly foreign concept to him

And no, I'm not about to entertain a lengthy back-and-forth conversation with someone who genuinely believes that this distance is ten meters and posts more Hashirama threads than I can count because of his weird obsession with downgrading the character. 

Absolutely insufferable.


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## Kushina san (Aug 24, 2015)

Edo Madara was not at full power because he could not use all his techniques, like Limbo etc...Hashirama himself confirmed that he was not at full power.

The same Hashirama. He could not use the Buddha.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 24, 2015)

I wonder if Kishi retconned Madara's power as Kabuto stated that he resurrected him even better than before and yet Madara after resurrecting claimed he finally recovered his full power which Hashi confirmed.

Either Kishi did not originally plan to make Madara stick around for so long-possibly planning to let the gokage win- OR the improvements that Kabuto gave Madara did make him stronger than his old self but his power as an edo was not brought up fully. So Madara ended up waaay stronger than his old self after recovering his old power AND with his Hashiboob from Kabuto.


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## Kushina san (Aug 24, 2015)

> wonder if Kishi retconned Madara's power as Kabuto stated that he resurrected him even better than before


This is because Kabuto has put the face of Hashirama, also he thought the rinnegan was his creation.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2015)

Gokage still get gutted in the same manner, all you have done is solely restricted Madara to his EMS form, Gokage would put up a better fight but they still cannot do anything about PS. EMS Madara was on par with Hashirama, people tend to forget that.

This is hilarious though, some of the people in this thread a month ago were swearing up and down that Hashirama would curb the Gokage are now saying that Madara would lose to them. The hypocrisy is laughable.


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## ARGUS (Aug 24, 2015)

Madara clowns them 
PS one shots like it would have in canon 

Funny thing is that madara didn't even use PS to fodder stomp the gokage given the type of injuries they had 
The battle was even more of a joke when all madara was doing was buying time for BZ


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 26, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> [] [] Onoki gave the moment he saw it.





> Not sure if bias is driving you here, but the scan above shows Perfect Susanoo in it's initial state, Onoki has his hands up ready to go, the exact moment PS is stablized he puts his hands down and has an expression of surprise in the first panel. If Manga wanted to display that Onoki had no chakra left, Manga would've shown him try to charge up Jinton, but fail like it's done in the past. Instead, Onoki doesn't even attempt to charge his attack.



Onoki's hands were raised on the previous page because he was channelling his massive jinton in tandem with Tsunade [1]. He also noted that he would pour all of his chakra into that jinton, and that it would probably be his final attack [2]. He lowered his hands because his jinton died and he could no longer maintain it. 



> Tsunade can't even believe that Hashirama fought against something that powerful. If the power is that overwhelming to her then chances are that the Gokage's combined power is nothing to it.



Tsunade is so astonished that Hashirama fought something like that because he did it _single-handedly_. Granted, even if the Gokage did have full chakra and were healthy, they would still be awe-struck by Perfect Susano'o's power and scale, but that doesn't mean they would consider themselves inferior to it if they were fighting as a team.



> Did he give up? No. I'll admit that. But Manga made it clear which party was superior.



In the context of the situation, where they had no chakra left and were defenceless, yes.



> I wonder why? Doesn't really take much thought to reach the obvious conclusion. Not to mention Onoki still had enough chakra to do *something*, given by his "I'm not giving up" statement.



Yet he already admitted to having almost no chakra left. All of that is irrelevant though. At that point, Onoki, Ei and Tsunade (and maybe Gaara, I'm not sure), didn't care if they died fighting Madara. They would fight him until their dying breath and die a valiant death befitting of a ninja. That was their duty as Kage. Even if all they could do was ineffectively throw low-level attacks at Perfect Susano'o and try to protect each other, they would fight him until the very end.



> 1. Madara's sword swing rips apart the ground without even touching it, and you are suggesting that Onoki uses that ground to travel?



If he does that, Onoki still has ways of devising his plan. If he sends a doton clone to travel beneath the ground, and Madara swipes at it, another clone/the real Onoki swoops down from above and starts using the Ultra-Added Weight Technique. Ultimately, if they have full chakra, the Gokage have ways of distracting Madara for Onoki to fly in at an angle and weigh Susano'o down.



> 2. Madara is 100% aware of Onoki's technique. Sharingan can see chakra through things like walls and rock formations. Yet somehow Onoki will get the jump on Madara and touch his Susanoo before Madara swings his blade and ends his life?
> 
> Let's be 100% serious here.



Yet he can't do anything about Onoki's technique while inside Susano'o unless, as you said, he tries to unearth him from the ground. But even that isn't a fool proof plan because Onoki and the other Kage still have ways of distracting or demanding his Susano'o's attention.​​


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Perfect Susano'o was only as much of a threat to the Five Kage as it was because they'd already used up all of their chakra. They had nothing left to fight it with.
> 
> In this scenario they won't have used nearly as much chakra because Madara won't be using Mokuton or Rinnegan. When Perfect Susano'o comes out, Onoki can weigh it down enough for it to either collapse, or move so slowly that its unable to dish out any damage. Then, once Tsunade starts chakra pumping him with Byakugou, Jinton should be large enough to bypass Susano'o and hit Madara.
> 
> ...



Onoki can make Jinton that big even without Tsunade's chakra. 

But anyway, neither Onoki is fast enough to not get slashed and weigh it down, nor is his Jinton fast enough to hit alive prime EMS Madara. 

Madara stomps.


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## KeyofMiracles (Sep 6, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yet he can't do anything about Onoki's technique while inside Susano'o unless, as you said, he tries to unearth him from the ground. But even that isn't a fool proof plan because Onoki and the other Kage still have ways of distracting or demanding his Susano'o's attention.​​



I'll just drop everything not related to feats. 

Anyway, no, they do not have ways of demanding his attention nor does he need to take his attention off Onoki to hit them when 1 slash tears up the entire battlefield.  The Kage get stomped as per canon.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Onoki can make Jinton that big even without Tsunade's chakra.
> 
> But anyway, neither Onoki is fast enough to not get slashed and weigh it down, nor is his Jinton fast enough to hit alive prime EMS Madara.
> 
> Madara stomps.



He used about 5-10 regular sized jintons against Muu before he became incapable of using it anymore .. so I doubt he could channel one about 100+ times its normal size by himself. 

Onoki isn't fighting by himself. He has 4 Kage supporting him and Doton clones. He doesn't need to be fast enough.



KeyofMiracles said:


> I'll just drop everything not related to feats.



I have no interest in debating with you further then, if you're willing to neglect a bunch of my thoughts .. just because you don't like them.​​


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## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

> He used about 5-10 regular sized jintons against Muu before he became incapable of using it anymore .. so I doubt he could channel one about 100+ times its normal size by himself.
> 
> Onoki isn't fighting by himself. He has 4 Kage supporting him and Doton clones. He doesn't need to be fast enough.



I dont remember him being incapable of using it after fighting Mu. He stopped Madara's meteorm although with Gaara's help, after that. I think Onoki is capable of creating at least 1 big-sized Jinton.

That doesnt matter. Alive Madara is too fast for Gokage.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I dont remember him being incapable of using it after fighting Mu. He stopped Madara's meteorm although with Gaara's help, after that. I think Onoki is capable of creating at least 1 big-sized Jinton.
> 
> That doesnt matter. Alive Madara is too fast for Gokage.



_This will jog your memory._

Alive EMS Madara wasn't as fast as V2 Ei, whose speed shocked him. Even so, collaboratively, they can certainly land hits on him (once his PS is out of the way), just as they did with a stronger version of Madara in-canon.​​


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## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> _This will jog your memory._
> 
> Alive EMS Madara wasn't as fast as V2 Ei, whose speed shocked him. Even so, collaboratively, they can certainly land hits on him (once his PS is out of the way), just as they did with a stronger version of Madara in-canon.​​



Saying that he was "shocked" is too much, i think. He wasnt shocked. He just recognised that Ei is fast. That's it. 

And Edo Madara is slower than alive Madara. Nevertheless, he moved faster than Jinton on several occasions and blocked Ei's V2 punch. Alive Madara easily manhandled SM Naruto, who has reaction speed and CQC speed faster than that of KCM Naruto. 

The only one giving him any trouble will be Ei. Any of Kage's attacks, including Jinton, will be evaded without any problem.


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## Yoko (Sep 6, 2015)

Being alive means Madara is aware of his own mortality and will avoid doing stupid things like allowing Jinton to directly hit him and sitting on a rock while his watered down clones mess around with his opponents.  As demonstrated in manga, the moment Madara was brought back to life, he held no punches, proceeding to immediately floor Naruto, Sasuke, Hashirama, Tobirama, and all the Bijuu.  Madara will bust out Perfect Susano'o and proceed to unsheathe his sword in their general vicinity.

Then there is also the fact that alive Madara's physical stats are implied to be superior than those of his Edo Tensei self, digging the Kage into an even deeper hole.


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## LostSelf (Sep 6, 2015)

The kages have nothing on Perfect Susano'o. They get demolished by it.


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## T-Bag (Sep 6, 2015)

You guys need to pay more attention to the manga than your silly made up feats/scenarios.
Madara was TOYING with the kages from the get go. As he told Black zetsu, he was just interested to see what the 5 kages were all about.

Oh let me throw this one out there too. In case I have to simplify it for some of you, Onoki is shocked he send sasuke in hopes of weakening the kages, when he could just stomp the fuck out of them all. Food for thought


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## KeyofMiracles (Sep 7, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He used about 5-10 regular sized jintons against Muu before he became incapable of using it anymore .. so I doubt he could channel one about 100+ times its normal size by himself.
> 
> Onoki isn't fighting by himself. He has 4 Kage supporting him and Doton clones. He doesn't need to be fast enough.
> 
> ...



Your thoughts are completely irrelevant to the conclusion of the fight, so let's not act a fool here buddy. Your thoughts are why you think that the Gokage weren't finished based on what happened in the Manga. What's even funnier is that I dropped that argument because I agreed with your points.

 So please, let's start using our brain and actually come up with an argument that makes sense.


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## ueharakk (Sep 9, 2015)

when madara fought the gokage, he had an immortal body and unlimited chakra.  He pretty much explains that when he can afford to get hit, *he fights more sloppily.*  Plus, he wanted to test the gokage.

With a living body, he'll simply take less risks and up his game quicker.  Once PS comes out, the gokage are done for, juubito couldn't avoid EMS Sasuke's Susanoo's attacks, even lightened Ei isn't doing that when he's up against someone who has better reactions and a far more advanced Susanoo.  That and the gokage have nothing that can replicate *the required power needed to break his PS*, not when they are baffled by *firepower of this level.*

The only way they can hope to win is to catch him by surprise before he's pulls out stuff they can't handle, which is highly doubtful.


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## AllTriFan (Sep 27, 2015)

The five kages


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