# Gear 5 Luffy vs Big Mom



## Okkutsu (Mar 24, 2022)

Imo the only hope for Big Mom here is if Gear 5 has a time limit. If it does, I’d give it to Big Mom out of respect for her stamina, endurance and the fact that she can heal herself if necessary.

Assuming there is a limit to Gear 5, it’ll be an absolute slaughter until Luffy is finally gassed lol.

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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 24, 2022)

Luffy solos

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## ShadoLord (Mar 24, 2022)

Big Mom won't cut it anymore. We need better than this for Luffy's challenges.

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## convict (Mar 24, 2022)

It isn't going to be a slaughter if it is unlimited just wait until Kaido struts his stuff in the next couple chapters.

People sleeping on the Yonkou. Kaido still has yet to get fully enraged and fight desperately. When he does he will be more than a match and Luffy will win by the skin of his teeth.

Still giving it to Luffy as the victor against her extreme difficulty but I may change my opinion on that as we see how he stacks up.

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## JustSumGuy (Mar 24, 2022)

Need to see more.

But things ain’t looking good for Mama.

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## Xebec (Mar 24, 2022)

goddman luffy wankers/yonko downplayers are dumb

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## Okkutsu (Mar 24, 2022)

convict said:


> It isn't going to be a slaughter if it is unlimited just wait until Kaido struts his stuff in the next couple chapters.
> 
> People sleeping on the Yonkou. Kaido still has yet to get fully enraged and fight desperately. When he does he will be more than a match and Luffy will win by the skin of his teeth.
> 
> Still giving it to Luffy as the victor against her extreme difficulty.


I don’t think it’s fair to use Kaido’s feats to scale Big Mom, especially when his feats completely shits on hers. Only thing saving her is portrayal honestly.

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## Luffyfan38 (Mar 24, 2022)

Die-Hardman said:


> goddman luffy wankers/yonko downplayers are dumb


You should have been here when we got that actual loss for Luffy before the revelation of JoyBoy, the madnes.

i think Big Ma won’t get another fight, I think she’s out for good.


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## convict (Mar 24, 2022)

Okkutsu said:


> I don’t think it’s fair to use Kaido’s feats to scale Big Mom, especially when his feats completely shits on hers. Only thing saving her is portrayal honestly.



I agree Kaido is stronger than her but at least they are not too far apart in strength so it will at least let us know she is in the ballpark.

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## Great Potato (Mar 24, 2022)

This will be nothing new for Big Mom, she's already used to getting treated like a Tom & Jerry character.

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## Djomla (Mar 24, 2022)

Disney vs Hanna-Barbera
​

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## Gabzy (Mar 24, 2022)

Lightning can't hurt Luffy, and now he can deflect fire too, Linlin's DF is useless against him

Luffy has 3 types of advanced haki and an awakened mythical zoan, he is just too much

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## Grinningfox (Mar 24, 2022)

Luffy at this stage has a better fruit than her,better Haki than her, and he counters aspects of her fruit

I thought this match was within his  ability to win before, I think it’s a clear win for him now.

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## josh101 (Mar 24, 2022)

There are people still deluding themselves that Big Mom is returning for a 1vs1 against Luffy?    

I said it in the prediction thread and I'll say it here; BM's done for. We're in the end game now.

Luffy beating Kaido here will just put him a tier above BM. He has two serious fights left in the manga; BB at Raftel then Imu in the final war.

Elbaf will be a shortish lore dump arc to do with the Sun God Nika as they worship him.

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## Maruo (Mar 24, 2022)

I'm guessing that Luffy high diffs, but it could be mid diff or extreme diff depending on how close Luffy is to the former Joyboy's level. This is assuming G5 has no limitations.

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## VileNotice (Mar 24, 2022)

The real question is who has the bigger fire hair

I think we know the answer

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## Ren. (Mar 24, 2022)

VileNotice said:


> The real question is who has the bigger fire hair
> 
> I think we know the answer


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## OG sama (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffys slaps that ass, she also gets hard countered in addition to being weaker than Luffy altogether.

Awakened Luffy wins.

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## Rp4lyf (Mar 25, 2022)

The Luffy from chapter 1037 beats her high-extreme diff. Current luffy mid diffs her.

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## Travis Touchdown (Mar 25, 2022)

We see Big Mom's awakening yet?

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## nyamad (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy wins.
What will BM do? She couldn’t even put kid and law down, and now Luffy has Zoan stamina regeneration aswell. Her best aCoC feat is taking out page one lol.

Luffy on the other hand, has force that exceed mecha bill (which broke her bones) and aCoA+aCoC+G5 to break her internally. What she going to do, scream mamamamama with her non lethal attacks. Luffy will literallly be laughing the whole time.

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## Corax (Mar 25, 2022)

She can't do anything here. Without plot/prison gains upgrade. So Elbaf BM vs Elbaf G5 Luffy will never happen. Without plot boost at least.

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## Draffut (Mar 25, 2022)

Die-Hardman said:


> goddman luffy wankers/yonko downplayers are dumb



I am one of the least Luffy wankers around, but if he has Toon Force then BM has no chance.

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## Dark Knight (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy and it would be the most hilarious fight in one piece. Looney toons Luffy vs Big Meme?  Make it happen Oda!

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## TheWiggian (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy low diff.

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## Ludi (Mar 25, 2022)

I don't think G5 would be needed for Wano Big Mom, G5 Luffy Blueno diffs.

If BM becomes stronger than this the diff can go up.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

Lol, Joyboy extreme diffs in Elbaf. The delusional people are the ones who think that a character who Oda has set up as an enemy for Luffy since the literal time skip and that Luffy actually has enmity towards is just going to be skipped over or beaten easily. 

Oda literally had to do everything he can in the Kidd and Law fight to deny her feats on panel while at the same time refusing to give Kidd and Law an actual victory against her. 

Luffy needs this many asspulls against a Yonko Tier character because nothing less will cut it. Even then, Anyone who thinks that this fight isn't going to be extreme difficulty with all the asspulls that has happened in Luffy's favor is reading two piece.

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## Garcher (Mar 25, 2022)

G5 destroys her very badly.


RossellaFiamingo said:


> Lol, Joyboy extreme diffs in Elbaf. The delusional people are the ones who think that a character who Oda has set up as an enemy for Luffy since the literal time skip and that Luffy actually has enmity towards is just going to be skipped over or beaten easily.


You are the delusional one here. Looking forward to your crying when Oda proves you wrong.

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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

The first part Luffy took Kaido by surprise, and so if Big Mom is took by surprise it is gonna play out the same. We'll need to wait and see for the next chapter to scale Kaido's feats back to Big Mom. Namely durability and regen. Which Big Mom both has extremely impressive feats of.

For now, we know Luffy can reflect Prom and Hera's attack through Rubber Environment. But Those attacks don't really do shit to Big Mom to begin with.

So we need to wait.

But Luffy is now easily Yonko level. So she's not low-diffing or mid-diffing him anymore, that's for sure.

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## Captain Quincy (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Lol, Joyboy extreme diffs in Elbaf. The delusional people are the ones who think that a character who Oda has set up as an enemy for Luffy since the literal time skip and that Luffy actually has enmity towards is just going to be skipped over or beaten easily.


It's possible Luffy doesn't have mastery over the form yet and can't transform at will. If that's the case then you can keep both Joy Boy being insanely powerful and BM still being an extreme diff fight.

If BM fight in Elbaf does happen then I could see the possibility of her being the stepping stone for him finally mastering the form in time for the Blackbeard fight. That would tie her in nicely narratively at least I think.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

Garcher said:


> G5 destroys her very badily.
> 
> You are the delusional one here. Looking forward to your crying when Oda proves you wrong.


 Naa, theres no delusion here. I know my limits as a wanker and unlike some in this thread, I actually read with a decent comprehension and don't make my conclusions based on single chapters nor am I a prisoner of the moment.

Luffy was never Yonko level before this powerup. If he was, he wouldn't need it.  Kaido and every other Villian bar Teach has less set up as an opponent for Luffy than Linlin. Heck, Luffy doesn't even give a shit about Kaido or his actions. He's just enjoying his fight with him. Meanwhile, he has actual dislike and hate for Linlin and the feeling is mutual.  

You have to literally discard 100s of chapters worth of setup to come to the conclusion that a fight between them is not happening. Or, you're severely lacking in reading comprehension, or you're tired of her taking up panel time, or you have a healthy diet of crayons. Either way, the people who can't read what's blatantly been set up are going to be the one's bitching once she's back in Elbaf as a fight for Joy boy Luffy.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> It's possible Luffy doesn't have mastery over the form yet and can't transform at will. If that's the case then you can keep both Joy Boy being insanely powerful and BM still being an extreme diff fight.
> 
> If BM fight in Elbaf does happen then I could see the possibility of her being the stepping stone for him finally mastering the form in time for the Blackbeard fight. That would tie her in nicely narratively at least I think.



Exactly, the people arguing like it's going to be a non fight sound like Zoro wankers claiming that Zoro low diffed King. 

If Luffy was Yonko level before this powerup, he wouldn't have gotten his ass handed to him 4 times and treated like a whack a mole. 

Luffy is only now reaching Yonko level with this powerup we don't even know the limits of. He likely surpasses that level only after mastering it. 

We see with his different powerups that it takes him at least another arc to get proper use to them. We saw him treat Doffy like a pinball with G4 but, from Cracker onwards we saw that G4 was not a big deal to a proper high tier. 

G5 is going to be incredibly powerful, yes, but to think that it's going to be some massive game-changer where he's one-shotting people that were clearly stronger than him before makes no sense.

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## Captain Quincy (Mar 25, 2022)

OT: I don't think Luffy's handling of Kaido this chapter will be accurate to how a straight up fight between them would go. Seems like Kaido was just caught by surprise for the most part. I think Joy Boy would win but I'll at least wait until next chapter or whenever we see the fight continue to judge how much of a boost this really is.

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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

> Luffy doesn't even give a shit about Kaido or his actions. He's just enjoying his fight with him. Meanwhile, he has actual dislike and hate for Linlin and the feeling is mutual.



Come on man Luffy didn't give 2 shits about Big Mom on the rooftop and concentrated all his attacks on Kaido. Give a single example of him choosing to go for her instead of Kaido. It has always been Kaido Kaido Kaido all arc Big Mom is an afterthought.

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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> Come on man Luffy didn't give 2 shits about Big Mom on the rooftop and concentrated all his attacks on Kaido. Give a single example of him choosing to go for her instead of Kaido. It has always been Kaido Kaido Kaido all arc Big Mom is an afterthought.



Yeah. He said he was gonna focus on her after he beats Kaido. Said it in WCI, and I think even hinted at it in Wano (I need to look for the panel). That does not guarantee a fight because Oda can do whatever he wants, but you can't dismiss the build up between the two. @RossellaFiamingo has every right to believe a Luffy vs. Big Mom fight will happen. I do believe it will happen as well, but it depends on the aftermath of Wano. Like I said, Oda can always changes things.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> Come on man Luffy didn't give 2 shits about Big Mom on the rooftop and concentrated all his attacks on Kaido. Give a single example of him choosing to go for her instead of Kaido. It has always been Kaido Kaido Kaido all arc Big Mom is an afterthought.


I guess you forgot the part where he explicitly states that he is here to fight KAIDO and not her and that he'll be back for her after he beats Kaido? 

This is the type of selective reading that is mind-boggling. Even then, we have a panel disproving that he aimed no attack at her. Just because Oda chose to off-panel the attacks on her (a conscious decision) doesn't mean they didn't happen. 

I don't know how many times Oda has to reiterate that Luffy vs Linlin is happening for people to get into their heads. But sure, let's discard 100s of chapters of setup and constant nauseating reiteration (implicit and explicit).

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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Yeah. He said he was gonna focus on her after he beats Kaido. Said it in WCI, and I think even hinted at it in Wano (I need to look for the panel). That does not guarantee a fight because Oda can do whatever he wants, but you can't dismiss the build up between the two. @RossellaFiamingo has every right to believe a Luffy vs. Big Mom fight will happen. I do believe it will happen as well, but it depends on the aftermath of Wano. Like I said, Oda can always changes things.



He never hinted anything of the sort. Fact of the matter was she was there. Ripe for the taking. Both of them were there side by side. Luffy always goes for the strongest opponent and selfishly hogs the one he is most interested in. He didn't even care to bless her with a single punch. 

He won't get Kid and Law's sloppy seconds. I thought that was possible before but thinking about it rationally it isn't happening.

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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> I guess you forgot the part where he explicitly states that he is here to fight KAIDO and not her and that he'll be back for her after he beats Kaido?
> 
> This is the type of selective reading that is mind-boggling. Even then, we have a panel disproving that he aimed no attack at her. *Just because Oda chose to off-panel the attacks on her (a conscious decision) doesn't mean they didn't happen.*
> 
> I don't know how many times Oda has to reiterate that Luffy vs Linlin is happening for people to get into their heads. But sure, let's discard 100s of chapters of setup and constant nauseating reiteration (implicit and explicit).





All the on-panel attacks focused on Kaido but off-panel I am sure he told Zoro and Kid to distract Kaido while he changes tact to focus on Big Mom. He was doggedly pursuing her the whole time when we moved away from the rootop but when the scene changed back to the rooftop 5 that is precisely when he decided he had enough of Big Mom and focus back on Kaido. Lets go with that.

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## Garcher (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Naa, theres no delusion here. I know my limits as a wanker and unlike some in this thread, I actually read with a decent comprehension and don't make my conclusions based on single chapters nor am I a prisoner of the moment.
> 
> Luffy was never Yonko level before this powerup. If he was, he wouldn't need it.  Kaido and every other Villian bar Teach has less set up as an opponent for Luffy than Linlin. Heck, Luffy doesn't even give a shit about Kaido or his actions. He's just enjoying his fight with him. Meanwhile, he has actual dislike and hate for Linlin and the feeling is mutual.
> 
> You have to literally discard 100s of chapters worth of setup to come to the conclusion that a fight between them is not happening. Or, you're severely lacking in reading comprehension, or you're tired of her taking up panel time, or you have a healthy diet of crayons. Either way, the people who can't read what's blatantly been set up are going to be the one's bitching once she's back in Elbaf as a fight for Joy boy Luffy.


You are either a troll or genuinely detached from reality   BM being a extreme diff antagonist for Luffy in a future arc isn't going to happen. Anyone with actual reading comprehension knows this. Oda brought her to Wano to go down with Kaido, she's dealt with and has nothing to offer as a main antagonist anymore.

Writing those paragraphs to convince yourself of the opposite will only make it harder when Oda proves you wrong

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> He never hinted anything of the sort. Fact of the matter was she was there. Ripe for the taking. Both of them were there side by side. Luffy always goes for the strongest opponent and selfishly hogs the one he is most interested in. He didn't even care to bless her with a single punch.
> 
> He won't get Kid and Law's sloppy seconds. I thought that was possible before but thinking about it rationally it isn't happening.


Tell me you're kidding. 

How many times must it be said? 

Luffy outright states he is here for Kaido and not her and that he'll be back for her afterward. Even the outcome of the fight between Kid and Law makes this obvious to anyone reading without a bias. Luffy won't get Kid and Law's sloppy seconds because they never beat her. He did everything in his power to not give them a clean victory.  

Her "last" words were that the plot bombs are not enough to do her in and that she would be back. 

If you want I can literally start pulling you panels from the start of the timeskip everytime Luffy makes mention of him fighting her.

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## God Movement (Mar 25, 2022)

Super close one. Wouldn't be surprised if Luffy could edge this one out. Could easily go the other way though.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

Garcher said:


> You are either a troll or genuinely detached from reality   BM being a extreme diff antagonist for Luffy in a future arc isn't going to happen. Anyone with actual reading comprehension knows this. Oda brought her to Wano to go down with Kaido, she's dealt with and has nothing to offer as a main antagonist anymore.
> 
> Writing those paragraphs to convince yourself of the opposite will only make it harder when Oda proves you wrong



The troll here is you. Put down the bottle and go take some reading lessons.

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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Tell me you're kidding.
> 
> How many times must it be said?
> 
> ...



Except Big Mom destroyed this line of reasoning when she chose to pursue Luffy straight to Wano, side with Kaido in an equal alliance, and supported all his plans and was right next to him just as big a threat. Luffy still ignored her. If he was that interested and hated Big Mom so much more than Kaido as you claim there was no reason to wait. She was right there. Both had to be taken out as both were at that point terrorizing Wano. And he chose Kaido. He was perfectly content in having Kid and Law take out Big Mom for him. Taking out Big Mom later was the original plan. But since she came to Wano he was happy with his allies taking her out now in his place.

Go for it if it makes you happy.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> All the on-panel attacks focused on Kaido but off-panel I am sure he told Zoro and Kid to distract Kaido while he changes tact to focus on Big Mom. He was doggedly pursuing her the whole time when we moved away from the rootop but when the scene changed back to the rooftop 5 that is precisely when he decided he had enough of Big Mom and focus back on Kaido. Lets go with that.


Nice, we're now going to act facetious and sarcastic when our headcanon is disproven. Prove that he never attacked her. This is something you cannot do without jumping to conclusions. The panel tells us that They were all attacking the Emperors and that nothing was working not that "Oh, our attacks on KAIDO aren't working"

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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Nice, we're now going to act facetious and sarcastic when our *headcanon* is disproven. Prove that he never attacked her. This is something you cannot do without jumping to conclusions. The panel tells us that They were all attacking the Emperors and that nothing was working not that "Oh, our attacks on KAIDO aren't working"



Headcanon is actually inserting your interpretation - actually desires - on the off-panel events rather than what we blatantly see on panel which I have been using in my argument this whole time.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> Except Big Mom destroyed this line of reasoning when she chose to pursue Luffy straight to Wano, side with Kaido in an equal alliance, and supported all his plans and was right next to him just as big a threat. Luffy still ignored her. If he was that interested and hated Big Mom so much more than Kaido as you claim there was no reason to wait. She was right there. Both had to be taken out as both were at that point terrorizing Wano.
> 
> Go for it if it makes you happy.


This is getting really frustrating. If you would be privy to reading what's in front of you, we wouldn't need to have this conversation. 

He has literally set out from the very start of the time skip to beat Kaido first before facing her. The whole plot of Wano and the alliance with Law was to take down Kaido. Luffy had her in her sights and outright tells her that he wasn't here to fight her and that he would deal with her later. 

in WCI, after fighting Katakuri, he tells Katakuri that he'll be back to beat his mother. And guess where he goes next after WCI? To Kaido because Luffy is still following along with the plan he and Law made during PH to bring down Kaido. He clearly has an order he wants to do things in. It's Kaido then her.

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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> Headcanon is actually inserting your interpretation - actually desires - on the off-panel events rather than what we blatantly see on panel which I have been using in my argument this whole time.


A single panel outright disproves your original notion, move on you lost that argument. We know how much Oda has offpaneld this arc especially when it comes to her action and we know how Oda selectively off panels when he decides it isn't time to see what x character can or will do against Y. If Kaido is luffys goal this arc, why wouldn't he focus on Luffy?

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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> This is getting really frustrating. If you would be privy to reading what's in front of you, we wouldn't need to have this conversation.
> 
> He has literally set out from the very start of the time skip to beat Kaido first before facing her. The whole plot of Wano and the alliance with Law was to take down Kaido. Luffy had her in her sights and outright tells her that he wasn't here to fight her and that he would deal with her later.
> 
> in WCI, after fighting Katakuri, he tells Katakuri that he'll be back to beat his mother. And guess where he goes next after WCI? To Kaido because Luffy is still following along with the plan he and Law made during PH to bring down Kaido. He clearly has an order he wants to do things in. It's Kaido then her.



You didn't address the point that Linlin completely wrecked whatever plans they had cooked by ACTIVELY pursuing him on to Wano and being just as complicit as Kaido for all the future misery on Wano by teaming up with him in an equal alliance. And at Luffy having full faith that his alliance comrades would deal with Big Mom while he was content on Kaido. If we are going in circles then so be it I'll stop.



RossellaFiamingo said:


> A single panel outright disproves your original notion, *move on you lost that argument.* We know how much Oda has offpaneld this arc especially when it comes to her action and we know how Oda selectively off panels when he decides it isn't time to see what x character can or will do against Y. If Kaido is luffys goal this arc, why wouldn't he focus on Luffy?



You can tell yourself that. Tell yourself that Oda could have had at least a couple on-panel instances of Luffy choosing to attack Big Mom over Kaido to highlight this so called hate Luffy has for Big Mom but chose not to so we all have to user our imagination. When he actually had plenty of action panels on the rooftop for other things.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> You didn't address the point that Linlin completely wrecked whatever plans they had cooked by ACTIVELY pursuing him on to Wano and being just as complicit as Kaido for all the future misery on Wano by teaming up with him in an equal alliance. And at Luffy having full faith that his alliance comrades would deal with Big Mom while he was content on Kaido. If we are going in circles then so be it I'll stop.



Why is an active pursuit even worthy of discussion? Her joining Kaido does not change a thing. Even then, we see no Indication of Luffy disliking Kaido despite his heinous acts hence, that aspect of your argument falls flat. 

Luffy having full faith does not reverse 100s of chapters of setup especially when her last words were that the bombs won't be enough to put her away. We see how she "loses". Now if you believe that to be an actual victory for Kid and Law, that is your prerogative. But to me, and I'm sure some others, we saw a fight where Kid and Law were given the spotlight and where all her sequences leading to her having an upper hand were actively skipped, only for their ultimate attacks to fail and for a literal plot hole and plot bombs to conveniently be there to remove her from the battlefield. Heck, we even have Kidd and Law change their goal from beating her to simply not allowing her to freely make her way to the rooftop.


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## nyamad (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy supposedly hates Big Mom —> Luffy will definitely fight her
Luffy definitely hates Akainu —> nah he won’t fight him.

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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> He never hinted anything of the sort. Fact of the matter was she was there. Ripe for the taking. Both of them were there side by side. Luffy always goes for the strongest opponent and selfishly hogs the one he is most interested in. He didn't even care to bless her with a single punch.
> 
> He won't get Kid and Law's sloppy seconds. I thought that was possible before but thinking about it rationally it isn't happening.



Good job ignoring Luffy's statements in WCI. He both stated to her and to Katakuri. I think Luffy said we wanted to beat the entire alliance. Add to that he was "busy" with Kaido for now. He wasn't gonna focus on two Yonko. Not even Luffy is that confident of his abilities. 

Law and Kid didn't even beat her cleanly. There's an asterisk on her defeat, even Kaido got more plot-support than her, if she was defeated cleanly I would've agreed. But given that her arc is still wide open and the build up is still there, it's natural to think she'll get a fair fight with Luffy.

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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Good job ignoring Luffy's statements in WCI. He both stated to her and to Katakuri. I think Luffy said we wanted to beat the entire alliance. Add to that he was "busy" with Kaido for now. He wasn't gonna focus on two Yonko. Not even Luffy is that confident of his abilities.
> 
> Law and Kid didn't even beat her cleanly. There's an asterisk on her defeat, even Kaido got more plot-support than her, if she was defeated cleanly I would've agreed. But given that her arc is still wide open and the build up is still there, it's natural to think she'll get a fair fight with Luffy.



As I said those were statements in WCI before Big Mom altered the game. Luffy has stated he wants to beat multiple people like Jack who he ended up not beating when events change things.  Either way this is a retread of the above conversation.

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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

nyamad said:


> Luffy definitely hates Akainu —> nah he won’t fight him.



Who said he wont fight him. I think the people that think Sabo will finish him off don't really think Luffy wont fight Akainu. There's a difference. 

Luffy and Big Mom's "fights" constituted of a neg-diff and a support attack in a team fight.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> As I said those were statements in WCI before Big Mom altered the game. Luffy has stated he wants to beat multiple people like Jack who he ended up not beating when events change things.  Either way this is a retread of the above conversation.



Yes, because saying he wanted to beat Jack holds the same weight as directly stating he wants to beat Big Mom both directly to her and to her First Mate.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Yes, because saying he wanted to beat Jack holds the same weight as directly stating he wants to beat Big Mom both directly to her and to her First Mate.



A statement is a statement. They are fallible as I showed, good luck hedging your hopes and dreams on an outdated statement.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> A statement is a statement. They are fallible as I showed good luck hedging your hopes and dreams on an outdated statement.



Hopes and dreams? Now you're just being unnecessarily confrontive. All I said there's is reasonable belief that they'll fight again, given multiple factors. All you're holding on is the fact that she didn't *FIGHT *Luffy, and thus can't happen. 

But going by your logic, if things change because Big Mom went to Wano, isn't equally possible that things change again, and Luffy and Big Mom gets into a fight due other following events? 

You can't tell me there is absolutely zero chance of that happening. Especially when Elbaf is possibly coming up.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> *Hopes and dreams? Now you're just being unnecessarily confrontive. *All I said there's is reasonable belief that they'll fight again, given multiple factors. All you're holding on is the fact that she didn't *FIGHT *Luffy, and thus can't happen.
> 
> But going by your logic, if things change because Big Mom went to Wano, isn't equally possible that things change again, and Luffy and Big Mom gets into a fight due other following events?
> 
> You can't tell me there is absolutely zero chance of that happening. Especially when Elbaf is possibly coming up.





Your radar for confrontational is really off.

Big Mom's beef with Luffy is a thing of the past. Her beef is now with Kid and Law mostly. When she was yelling she was coming back she specifically said that to Kid and Law. That they won't hear the last of her. Luffy was not even in the discussion as he was busy fighting someone he actually wanted to take down and not have his friends do it for him.

There is a chance they fight in Elbaf. A minimal one but it is there.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> it is there




Eureka. He finally gets it.


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## convict (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Eureka. He *finally* gets it.



I mean ever since the ending with an asterisk I have been saying it is still possible just_ highly_ unlikely for months but


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## Amol (Mar 25, 2022)

I don't think Luffy vs Big Mom is happening anymore.

How there hypothetical fight would go is something that I will answer after next chapter.


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> If Luffy was Yonko level before this powerup, he wouldn't have gotten his ass handed to him 4 times and treated like a whack a mole.


This isn't true. Luffy obviously didn't start the battle Yonko level; hence all the losses. 

But those losses don't take away from how Luffy performed after receiving his power ups from those defeats. From Luffy splitting the skies, to Kaido acknowledging Luffy as one of the few that can genuinely challenge him it was made pretty clear that Luffy was Yonko level; even if on the lower end of the spectrum. He needed G5 as a power up because he needs to actually surpass the Yonko to win this battle against the strongest Yonko, and eventually become the Pirate King.

G5 Luffy could easily have surpassed Big Mom without it ruining their future fights. Obviously won't be an easy fight for Luffy, but it definitely makes the most sense to favor Luffy in this fight right now.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## A Optimistic (Mar 25, 2022)

If Oda wanted us to think Luffy vs Big Mom was going to happen, then why did Oda show all of Linlin’s abilities and have her defeated by the Worst Generation on Wano?

There is no Luffy vs Big Mom. This is the end of Linlin’s pirate career. She won’t even be considered a Yonko anymore after Big News Morgan is done roasting her in his next article.

And of course current Luffy is stronger than her.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 25, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> If Oda wanted us to think Luffy vs Big Mom was going to happen, then why did Oda show all of Linlin’s abilities and have her defeated by the Worst Generation on Wano?
> 
> There is no Luffy vs Big Mom. This is the end of Linlin’s pirate career. She won’t even be considered a Yonko anymore after Big News Morgan is done roasting her in his next article.
> 
> And of course current Luffy is stronger than her.


Oda had the narrator box announce Luffy’s defeat, and then wrote him back into the fight the very next chapter.

If anything, the fact that Law & Kidd could only barely manage a BFR with Big Mom shouting that their efforts wouldn’t be enough to kill her is probably him setting up her return as a future opponent. She was defeated, but not in a way that diminishes her threat like every other antagonist written out of the story.

I agree that Luffy is stronger than her now tho.


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## A Optimistic (Mar 25, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Oda had the narrator box announce Luffy’s defeat, and then wrote him back into the fight the very next chapter.
> 
> If anything, the fact that Law & Kidd could only barely manage a BFR with Big Mom shouting that their efforts wouldn’t be enough to kill her is probably him setting up her return as a future opponent. She was defeated, but not in a way that diminishes her threat like every other antagonist written out of the story.
> 
> I agree that Luffy is stronger than her now tho.



when was luffy given a defeat narrator box? Regardless, luffy is the main character and isn’t allowed to stay down

big mom doesn’t get that luxury. There is no main antagonist that has been defeated during the current storyline and then proceeded to be luffy’s main opponent in a future arc. If it didn’t happen to lucci, crocodile, and Moria when they returned, why should it be any different now?

what new abilities would big mom even show in elbaf anyways? She showed advanced coc, fusing 3 homies together, and she even got two flashbacks. That’s enough 

the theme of this arc is the rock pirates duo to go down for good this arc. She won’t be a Yonko after this arc ends and she won’t be the main antagonist of elbaf, I can promise you that

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## JustSumGuy (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy fighting BM after Wano would be like if Zoro and Sanji “defeated” Lucci in Water 7 by sending him flying or whatever and then Luffy beats him up again in Enies Lobby.

I don’t think Oda would write a future Luffy opponent losing to anyone before they lost to  Luffy. It just ain’t gonna feel the same.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Adhominem (Mar 25, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> when was luffy given a defeat narrator box? Regardless, luffy is the main character and isn’t allowed to stay down
> 
> big mom doesn’t get that luxury. There is no main antagonist that has been defeated during the current storyline and then proceeded to be luffy’s main opponent in a future arc. If it didn’t happen to lucci, crocodile, and Moria when they returned, why should it be any different now?
> 
> ...


Winner. More precisely, the entire Yonko saga is about the demolition of the existing world order starting with the pirate/Yonko old guard, Law's breaking the gear speech is emblematic of what it was all about.


Big Mom is not coming back in any serious measure post Wano. Very likely, neither is Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 25, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> when was luffy given a defeat narrator box? Regardless, luffy is the main character and isn’t allowed to stay down
> 
> big mom doesn’t get that luxury. There is no main antagonist that has been defeated during the current storyline and then proceeded to be luffy’s main opponent in a future arc. If it didn’t happen to lucci, crocodile, and Moria when they returned, why should it be any different now?
> 
> ...




Events naturally play out differently as the story progresses. Luffy’s never had this many power ups in a single arc before.We’ve never had two main antagonists in a single arc before. 

etc. etc.

Doubt most of us would still be invested if we could expect the same formula every arc.

Could easily say that since Big Mom was technically the side antagonist in Wano she’s yet face true defeat as the main antagonist of her own arc; justifying her return.

As for new things she can show, her ability allows her to freely manifest new soul weapons. Just like how in this arc she created Hera she could also create more like her in the future. She could also show more of her AdvCoC that was notably lacking in her fight against Law & Kidd.

This could also be the first battle where Luffy has to overcome an entire Yonko crew without allies unaffiliated with his banner.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Grimsley (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Lol, Joyboy extreme diffs in Elbaf. The delusional people are the ones who think that a character who Oda has set up as an enemy for Luffy since the literal time skip and that Luffy actually has enmity towards is just going to be skipped over or beaten easily.
> 
> Oda literally had to do everything he can in the Kidd and Law fight to deny her feats on panel while at the same time refusing to give Kidd and Law an actual victory against her.
> 
> Luffy needs this many asspulls against a Yonko Tier character because nothing less will cut it. Even then, Anyone who thinks that this fight isn't going to be extreme difficulty with all the asspulls that has happened in Luffy's favor is reading two piece.


Drag them.

We will be bookmarking these threads when Linlin has her last dance on Elbaf. Her awakening must be broken af if it can compete with Nika awakened Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## A Optimistic (Mar 25, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Events naturally play out differently as the story progresses. Luffy’s never had this many power ups in a single arc before.We’ve never had two main antagonists in a single arc before.
> 
> etc. etc.
> 
> ...



hmm I’m not sure how I missed that narrator box, thanks for the link

anyways we can agree to disagree, we don’t really see eye to eye when Linlin is concerned 

one question though, if big news Morgan publishes an article after Wano ends saying big mom is no longer a Yonko, would that change your mind?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 25, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> hmm I’m not sure how I missed that narrator box, thanks for the link
> 
> anyways we can agree to disagree, we don’t really see eye to eye when Linlin is concerned
> 
> one question though, if big news Morgan publishes an article after Wano ends saying big mom is no longer a Yonko, would that change your mind?


Probably not. Mainly cause I don’t see how a newspaper is meant to decide that. Big Mom would still have her strength & influence; unless it’s announced that she died or something. Plus Law & Kidd shouldn’t be ready to take over her spot individually yet.


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## A Optimistic (Mar 25, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Probably not. Mainly cause I don’t see how a newspaper is meant to decide that. Big Mom would still have her strength & influence; unless it’s announced that she died or something. Plus Law & Kidd shouldn’t be ready to take over her spot individually yet.



well the world values the input of big news Morgan otherwise big mom would not have gotten so triggered at the article that was posted after WCI ended in my opinion 

I do agree that law and Kidd are not ready to take over yet. I just think it will be luffy, shanks and Blackbeard. There was a point where there was only 3 emperors before Blackbeard got promoted so it has precedent


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## Empathy (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy with extreme difficulty. He’s above the average Emperor or Admiral now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TrolonoaZoro (Mar 25, 2022)

God damn, shouldn't we see how the fight plays out first.

Luffy did say this is his peak and "i can fight a little bit longer" and "lets finish this"

At the end of the day he won't solo Kaido, and we can presume at least durability wise Big Mom should be up there with Kaido.

But then again Oda did retroactively said Luffy didn't need any help vs DD the first time he used G4, lol.


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## Jay. (Mar 25, 2022)

that would be the funniest fight in the verse tbh

please make it happen oda

probably a tie but luffy obviously has the momentum and youth factor on his side

Reactions: Winner 1


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## killfox (Mar 25, 2022)

If Kaido (weakened) does significant damage to Luffy even after his power up then a fresh BM who could fight Kaido for days wins. 

Plot held her back from using Advance CoC on pannel, and we don’t really know how much damage it truly takes to put her down.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> It isn't going to be a slaughter if it is unlimited just wait until Kaido struts his stuff in the next couple chapters.
> 
> People sleeping on the Yonkou. Kaido still has yet to get fully enraged and fight desperately. When he does he will be more than a match and Luffy will win by the skin of his teeth.
> 
> Still giving it to Luffy as the victor against her extreme difficulty but I may change my opinion on that as we see how he stacks up.


Even if Kaidou matched G5 in the next chapter (which we know he won’t be able to exactly match it because he’s going to loose); that is not a feat you can magically give BM. When BM best feat is matching much weaker versions of Kaidou.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

killfox said:


> If Kaido (weakened) does significant damage to Luffy even after his power up then a fresh BM who could fight Kaido for days wins.
> 
> Plot held her back from using Advance CoC on pannel, and we don’t really know how much damage it truly takes to put her down.


She fought Base Kaidou for days. Luffy in G2/3 fought Hybrid Kaidou; let’s get real here BM is getting destroyed by G5

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> The first part Luffy took Kaido by surprise, and so if Big Mom is took by surprise it is gonna play out the same. We'll need to wait and see for the next chapter to scale Kaido's feats back to Big Mom. Namely durability and regen. Which Big Mom both has extremely impressive feats of.
> 
> For now, we know Luffy can reflect Prom and Hera's attack through Rubber Environment. But Those attacks don't really do shit to Big Mom to begin with.
> 
> ...


BM doesn’t scale to Kaidou stop being desperate

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Ayy lmao (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy beats her without G5

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> BM doesn’t scale to Kaidou stop being desperate



Right. Because she's Blueno.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Orca (Mar 25, 2022)

Need to see the conclusion of current fight before answering this.

Big Mom is done as antagonist though. Most of her crew including herself have already been defeated. We’ve seen her abilities and flashback. Its done.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> She fought *Base *Kaidou for days.



We know this how?


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## Great Potato (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> We know this how?



Regardless, even if Kaido was in base, so was Big Mom.

She was down two homies at the time and didn't use her Bigger Mom transformation.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## killfox (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> She fought Base Kaidou for days. Luffy in G2/3 fought Hybrid Kaidou; let’s get real here BM is getting destroyed by G5


The same way people claim we BM used Advanced CoC against Law Kid off pannel is the same way I can argue Kaido went hybrid. Also BM only had 1 homie and still had access to Bigger mom and regeneration.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2


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## killfox (Mar 25, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> Regardless, even if Kaido was in base, so was Big Mom.
> 
> She was down two homies at the time and didn't use her Bigger Mom transformation.


Damn u beat me to it lol


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> Regardless, even if Kaido was in base, so was Big Mom.
> 
> She was down two homies at the time and didn't use her Bigger Mom transformation.





killfox said:


> The same way people claim we BM used Advanced CoC against Law Kid off pannel is the same way I can argue Kaido went hybrid. Also BM only had 1 homie and still had access to Bigger mom and regeneration.



Good posts

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Right. Because she's Blueno.


No because  you have zero reason to scale her to Kaidou

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> We know this how?


All we know is he was in Base every time we saw the fight and she never pushed him to ge serious enough to use his druken style and even after fighting her he didn’t consider her one of the individual able to actually fight him seriously like Shanks, Roger, etc…

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

killfox said:


> The same way people claim we BM used Advanced CoC against Law Kid off pannel is the same way I can argue Kaido went hybrid. Also BM only had 1 homie and still had access to Bigger mom and regeneration.


So in a very poor way?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> All we know is he was in Base every time we saw the fight and she never pushed him to ge serious enough to use his druken style and even after fighting her he didn’t consider her one of the individual able to actually fight him seriously like Shanks, Roger, etc…



So you don't really know how.. gotcha


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> No because  you have zero reason to scale her to Kaidou



That's because she's the Blueno of Wano


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin already has 6 posts in this thread. So you know his next post will be Naruto related.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> That's because she's the Blueno of Wano


Deflect all you want it’s just a concession you have no real argument

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> So you don't really know how.. gotcha


We know Kaidou never took her as seriously as G2/3 Luffy which should be enough to tell you the level of that fight

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> We know Kaidou never took her as seriously as G2/3 Luffy which should be enough to tell you the level of that fight



No you don't know.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> No you don't know.


Literally states it but expecting a mod to read the manga is too much I guess

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


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## MO (Mar 25, 2022)

Will know the result when Big Mom comes back In Elbaf.   



anyways fight is premature. Luffy didn't do much to kaido this chapter anyways. I still have Big Mom winning.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MO (Mar 25, 2022)

convict said:


> Big Mom's beef with Luffy is a thing of the past. Her beef is now with Kid and Law mostly. When she was yelling she was coming back she specifically said that to Kid and Law. That they won't hear the last of her. Luffy was not even in the discussion as he was busy fighting someone he actually wanted to take down and not have his friends do it for him.


Her feud with Luffy is still there. Law and Kidd were just obstacles in her way to getting to Luffy. But even throughout her fight she was trying to get to the rooftop.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

I'm a simple man. I see a Turrin post in a Linlin thread, I tier specialist.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## trance (Mar 25, 2022)

luffy high diffs

might even be mid diff

appropriate for the weakest yonko

Reactions: Winner 4 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> I'm a simple man. I see a Turrin post in a Linlin thread, I tier specialist.


It’s really sad how in denial of reality you guys are. Kaidou literally said he hasn’t fought anyone as strong as G2/3 Luffy in a long time:

Which means BM is weaker then G2/3 Luffy. Yet you give people Tier specialist rating for saying G5 (>> G4 >> G2/3) Luffy Mid/High diffs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Canute87 (Mar 25, 2022)

Can Luffy make Big mom look worse than oda has managed to do himself?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## killfox (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s really sad how in denial of reality you guys are. Kaidou literally said he hasn’t fought anyone as strong as G2/3 Luffy in a long time:
> 
> Which means BM is weaker then G2/3 Luffy. Yet you give people Tier specialist rating for saying G5 (>> G4 >> G2/3) Luffy Mid/High diffs.


The problem with your logic is BM didn’t go all out on Kaido.


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## Bernkastel (Mar 25, 2022)

trance said:


> luffy high diffs
> 
> might even be mid diff
> 
> appropriate for the weakest yonko


Do you think he can also mid diff the weakest admiral?


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## trance (Mar 25, 2022)

Bernkastel said:


> Do you think he can also mid diff the weakest admiral?


yes

the logia trio and fujitora are running on outdated feats and hype

Reactions: Informative 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy's bounty will surpass Kaido and people think Big Mom is winning?  He should clown any admiral or Yonko if G5 has no downside.   


MO said:


> Her feud with Luffy is still there. Law and Kidd were just obstacles in her way to getting to Luffy. But even throughout her fight she was trying to get to the rooftop.


It will make sense if she win but she lost to the so called "obstacles"?


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s really sad how in denial of reality you guys are. Kaidou literally said he hasn’t fought anyone as strong as G2/3 Luffy in a long time:
> 
> Which means BM is weaker then G2/3 Luffy. Yet you give people Tier specialist rating for saying G5 (>> G4 >> G2/3) Luffy Mid/High diffs.


Very good point

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s really sad how in denial of reality you guys are. Kaidou literally said he hasn’t fought anyone as strong as G2/3 Luffy in a long time:
> 
> Which means BM is weaker then G2/3 Luffy. Yet you give people Tier specialist rating for saying G5 (>> G4 >> G2/3) Luffy Mid/High diffs.



Likewise Big Mom said it's been decades since she felt "pain like this" after just fighting with Kaido. I guess Law and Kidd damage > Kaido. 

But Blueno


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 25, 2022)

@Turrin, here I made something for you:

Reactions: Funny 9


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## Descent of the Lion (Mar 25, 2022)

She'd get wrecked.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Kingslayer (Mar 25, 2022)

Hard to tell we have zero info about his new gear.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## spawn3 (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy beats her without using Haki.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Draco Bolton (Mar 25, 2022)

Luffy Tunes vs Big Meme who get clowned again and again ?  

If ever she chases Luffy again, till Elbaf, it will be a pure Looney Tunes episode


 

And she will fatally job just like Coyote   So yeah Gear 5 win

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> @Turrin, here I made something for you:

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 25, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> I guess Law and Kidd damage > Kaido.


Puncture Wille *shits* on any attack Kaido has shown so far

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shanks (Mar 25, 2022)

Bro, Luffy's CoC just got even bigger. Big Mom ain't gonna handle this Monkey D, even though she was impregnated by Garp

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kingslayer (Mar 25, 2022)

Turrin said:


> We know Kaidou never took her as seriously as G2/3 Luffy which should be enough to tell you the level of that fight


Seriously  how can you say this ?

Big mom low diffs G2 luffy.


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## Kingslayer (Mar 25, 2022)

Kaido never took the fight seriously  because they were old buddies. It was friendly match.


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## Shanks (Mar 25, 2022)

Kingslayer said:


> Seriously  how can you say this ?
> 
> Big mom low diffs G2 luffy.


He is talking about A.CoC G2 Luffy


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## Kingslayer (Mar 25, 2022)

Shanks said:


> He is talking about A.CoC G2 Luffy


No he didnt write that my man. He literally stated G2 xD.


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## Shanks (Mar 25, 2022)

Kingslayer said:


> No he didnt write that my man. He literally stated G2 xD.



Come on


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 25, 2022)

I really want to see the conclusion with BM and Luffy's plot. Her defeat here in Wano strongly suggest that she may have a role to play in elbaf but this current developement of Luffy kinda ruin that chance for BM. 

G5 luffy vs BM, Im against it now. There will no suspense anymore since G5 luffy is probably above BM but if they fight without G5 then im still all for it.


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## Shanks (Mar 25, 2022)

Big Mom gonna getting Man'ed by Jimbie in Elbaf. Mark my words


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## Kingslayer (Mar 25, 2022)

Kylo Ren said:


> I really want to see the conclusion with BM and Luffy's plot. Her defeat here in Wano strongly suggest that she may have a role to play in elbaf but this current developement of Luffy kinda ruin that chance for BM.
> 
> G5 luffy vs BM, Im against it now. There will no suspense anymore since G5 luffy is probably above BM but if they fight without G5 then im still all for it.


Shanks and blackbeard will play important  role in upcoming  arc. 

Big mom will have mini role she literally got 2 arcs . Hopefully  she gets redeemed  purely because she is not overall a bad person.


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Mar 25, 2022)

Kingslayer said:


> Shanks and blackbeard will play important  role in upcoming  arc.
> 
> Big mom will have mini role she literally got 2 arcs . *Hopefully  she gets redeemed  purely because she is not overall a bad person.*


I had been saying Meme will be redeemed post-Wano for a while now, not sure why people want to see her remain as a villain, she will just get another L as a villain, she probably gives G5 Luffy a high diff fight though if they fight again.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Brian (Mar 26, 2022)

Luffy can't out toon Big Mom just yet

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Kingslayer said:


> Seriously  how can you say this ?
> 
> Big mom low diffs G2 luffy.


 Because it’s literally stated in the Manga by Kaidou:

I also don’t see any basis for claiming BM Low-Diffs G2/3 Luffy. Where is the evidence of reasoning for that

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Likewise Big Mom said it's been decades since she felt "pain like this" after just fighting with Kaido. I guess Law and Kidd damage > Kaido.


Yeah Law and Kidd did more damage then Kaidou, for the already stated reason that Kaidou did not take BM seriously.
—-
Kaidou only became serious against Luffy because Luffy reached a strength threshold at G2/3 CoC where it became interesting for Kaidou to start actually trying to a certain extent. BM isn’t an interesting fight for him because she isn’t at that strength threshold. And guess what you have provided zero evidence that she is other then complaining about Blueno who at least endured a long time against Luffy’s new Gear, I wonder could BM even do that.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 26, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yeah Law and Kidd did more damage then Kaidou, for the already stated reason that Kaidou did not take BM seriously.
> —-
> Kaidou only became serious against Luffy because Luffy reached a strength threshold at G2/3 CoC where it became interesting for Kaidou to start actually trying to a certain extent. BM isn’t an interesting fight for him because she isn’t at that strength threshold. And guess what you have provided zero evidence that she is other then complaining about Blueno who at least endured a long time against Luffy’s new Gear, I wonder could BM even do that.



Same logic can be applied to Kaido not pushing Big Mom to be serious in order to damage her.

I bring up Blueno, because it's the perfect representation of your posting history here. You stubbornly stick to one completely preposterous preposition, and when it expectedly fails, you double down on it making a mockery of yourself because you can't fathom the simple concept of you being wrong or ignorant. So what do you do, you twist completely irrelevant shit to confirm bias your claim.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 26, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I also don’t see any basis for claiming BM Low-Diffs G2/3 Luffy. Where is the evidence of reasoning for that



She neg-diffed G4.


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Same logic can be applied to Kaido not pushing Big Mom to be serious in order to damage her.
> 
> See I can use retarded gymnastics too
> 
> I bring up Blueno, because it's the perfect representation of your posting history here. You stubbornly stick to one completely preposterous preposition, and when it expectedly fails, you double down on it making a mockery of yourself because you can't fathom the simple concept of you being wrong or ignorant. So what do you do, you twist completely irrelevant shit to confirm bias your claim.


No the same logic can’t be applied because it was stated Kaidou didn’t get serious against BM, but nowhere is it stated that BM wasn’t serious against Kaidou; your just asspulling that from your own headcanon.

Its also further implied by the story that BM can’t fight on Kaidou’s level when he’s serious by him not imaging her shadow among those he has faced who have been able to fight him seriously. 
—-
No your being up blueno to deflect from your lack of real evidence. Your also bring it up to try and claim it’s preposterous for however long you can until the forum realizes gee if BM isn’t even G2/3 level, that it’s very questionable that BM can even stand up to G5 the way Blueno did against G2.


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> She neg-diffed G4.


At no point did she neg diff G4 post conquerors. Your reading 2 Piece.

See zero evidence so you got to make shit up huh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 26, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> She neg-diffed G4.


Before he learned AdvCoC & AdvCoA.

Terrible arguments on both sides. Big Mom obviously doesn't lose to G2/G3 Luffy, but she also obviously doesn't beat that version of Luffy with little difficulty after he pushed Kaido so far.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Before he learned AdvCoC & AdvCoA.
> 
> Terrible arguments on both sides. Big Mom obviously doesn't lose to G2/G3 Luffy, but she also obviously doesn't beat that version of Luffy with little difficulty after he pushed Kaido so far.


If it’s a terrible argument explain why she doesn’t loose  to G2/3. Bare in mind I’m not saying G2/3 beat her easily, I’m saying G2/3 wins with at minimum extreme diff off Kaidou’s statements and Luffy’s superior feats with CoC

All I’m asking for is an actual argument for why BM wins, other then Hur Dur Because she’s a Yonko or hur dur she scales to Kaidou off a fight where he specifically was less serious then against G2/3 Luffy


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## Whimsy (Mar 26, 2022)

I hope they fight and Big Mom has a crazy awakening, then we'd get some real Looney Tunes type shit. Let Oda really flex his creativity.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 26, 2022)

Turrin said:


> No the same logic can’t be applied because it was stated Kaidou didn’t get serious against BM, but nowhere is it stated that BM wasn’t serious against Kaidou; your just asspulling that from your own headcanon.
> 
> Its also further implied by the story that BM can’t fight on Kaidou’s level when he’s serious by him not imaging her shadow among those he has faced who have been able to fight him seriously.



It's simple, if Kaido didn't get serious, neither did Big Mom.

*YOU HAVE ABOSLUTELY ZERO PROOF THAT BIG MOM WAS SERIOUS AND KAIDO WASN'T. *

Either they both were, or neither was. Otherwise why not beat her if he can mid-diff her.

But see, you're contradicting yourself, if we're to go by your dumb logic, then Kaido was only serious when he "accepted" Luffy, so non-serious Kaido still pushed G2/G3 Luffy (who is > BM apparently) to high-diff before being serious. Are you saying non-serious Kaido didn't give "substantial Pain in decades" to Big Mom?

Furthermore, where has G2/G3 Luffy or even non-serious Kaido shown an attack that scales damage to Puncture Willie + Multiple Punk Rottens + Multiple Nukes. Cuz last time I checked, that was what put Big Mom "down" when apparently she was already on "death's door".

"Non-serious Kaido" or G2/G3 simply doesn't have that damage output.

The whole calc is dumb.



Turrin said:


> No your being up blueno to deflect from your lack of real evidence. Your also bring it up to try and claim it’s preposterous for however long you can until the forum realizes gee if BM isn’t even G2/3 level, that it’s very questionable that BM can even stand up to G5 the way Blueno did against G2.




*I bring up Blueno, because it's the perfect representation of your posting history here. You stubbornly stick to one completely preposterous preposition, and when it expectedly fails, you double down on it making a mockery of yourself because you can't fathom the simple concept of you being wrong or ignorant. So what do you do, you twist completely irrelevant shit to confirm bias your claim.*


See, you're not even trying to deny it 




Turrin said:


> At no point did she neg diff G4 post conquerors. Your reading 2 Piece.
> 
> See zero evidence so you got to make shit up huh



It's called scaling from WCI to Wano numbnuts. If G2 Luffy is > Big Mom. G4 > Kaido.

Or better yet, let's see how really ignorant you are. Does Kaido mid-diff Big Mom?



Chip Skylark said:


> Before he learned AdvCoC & AdvCoA.



Yeah, but it's called scaling. She neg-diffed him, a literal one-panel. Obviously she doesn't neg-diff him anymore, but how much did Luffy grow in order to beat Big Mom at G2. The same Big Mom that low-diffed Queen whilst completely nerfed, the same Big Mom that had Marco at her mercy whilst nerfed and also at a natural disadvantage from his fruit, the same Big Mom that split the sky with Kaido. The same Big Mom that tanked Law and Kidd's first Awakening attacks. That's not even counting Bigger Mom, or Soul Healing, or AdCoC. The leap has to be completely ridicolous

There's absolutely zero doubt in my mind that she mid-diffs G2/G3.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 26, 2022)

Turrin said:


> All I’m asking for is an actual argument for why BM wins



Soul Healing + Bigger Mom + AdCoC + Maser Saber + Maser Cannon + Simply outlasting him

While G2/G3 has nothing in his arsenal that can put down Big Mom. While we're at it, neither does G4 for that matter.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> It's simple, if Kaido didn't get serious, neither did Big Mom.
> 
> *YOU HAVE ABOSLUTELY ZERO PROOF THAT BIG MOM WAS SERIOUS AND KAIDO WASN'T. *
> 
> ...


1) There are plenty of Instance where one fighter is serious and the other isn’t. Kaidou not being serious doesn’t not automatically mean BM also wasn’t serious. Sorry.

2) Kaidou didn’t cause as significant injuries as Law/Kid awakening on G2/3 Luffy ether prior to getting serious. So that argument does not work ether.

3) Why do you think Puncture willie or Kids’s awakening are stronger then Dozens of Skysplitting Advanced CoC Attacks. And I don’t want to hear any circle jerk reasoning based on damage it did to BM.

4) I don’t deny it becuase I think BM loosing the way Blueno did to G2 to G5 is perfectly reasonable given the scaling Oda has presented 

5) Why would G2/3 being > BM make G4 > Kaidou? I don’t see any semblance of reasoning there.

6) Luffy grew massively lol; all your doing is underrating Luffy’s growth to come him to WCI.


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Soul Healing + Bigger Mom + AdCoC + Maser Saber + Maser Cannon + Simply outlasting him
> 
> While G2/G3 has nothing in his arsenal that can put down Big Mom. While we're at it, neither does G4 for that matter.


I don’t see BM have any feats of tanking repeated CoC sky splitting attacks


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## Lawliet (Mar 26, 2022)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Heck, Luffy doesn't even give a shit about Kaido or his actions. He's just enjoying his fight with him. Meanwhile, he has actual dislike and hate for Linlin and the feeling is mutual.


You must have skipped half the arc and half the rooftop itself.

Luffy constantly yelled at Kaidou for doing what he did to the " strong brave samurai"




RossellaFiamingo said:


> Luffy was never Yonko level before this powerup


I guess kaidou admitting he's going 100% is not enough proof for you.




RossellaFiamingo said:


> Luffy outright states he is here for Kaido and not her and that he'll be back for her afterward.


No. Luffy never said he will be back for her during Wano. He said that during WCI. When he didn't know she be will be on Wano and suffer her first defeat in ages.

Big mom is the new Shiki until Buggy awakens his fruit and takes over. Buggy is gonna overthrow BM, think about that.

If BM shows herself on Elbaf, it will be to fast forward the good relationship between the giants the the SHs by whooping her ass back to WCI and Elbaf should be a mini arc. So the fight is even... Minier



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Good job ignoring Luffy's statements in WCI


Good job ignoring everything that happened on Wano lol




Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> You can't tell me there is absolutely zero chance of that happening. Especially when Elbaf is possibly coming up.


Not 0.. But she won't be the main villain of an arc anymore. This is the yonkou saga and she played her part as a yonkou in it.

If she comes in the future, she's coming as Linlin, the annoying old hag, not the yonkou.

Yonkou big mom was already defeated mate. Luffy doesn't take non virgins


A Optimistic said:


> If Oda wanted us to think Luffy vs Big Mom was going to happen, then why did Oda show all of Linlin’s abilities and have her defeated by the Worst Generation on Wano?


Good question.

I really don't understand the BM fans that want her to fight Luffy. 

You love her so much, you wanna see her being humiliated? I guess this is what they call tough love


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 26, 2022)

Turrin said:


> If it’s a terrible argument explain why she doesn’t loose  to G2/3. Bare in mind I’m not saying G2/3 beat her easily, I’m saying G2/3 wins with at minimum extreme diff off Kaidou’s statements and Luffy’s superior feats with CoC
> 
> All I’m asking for is an actual argument for why BM wins, other then Hur Dur Because she’s a Yonko or hur dur she scales to Kaidou off a fight where he specifically was less serious then against G2/3 Luffy


Big Mom wasn't serious either as others have already pointed out to you. Against Law & Kidd she turned into Bigger Mom specifically because she had sustained more damage than she had in decades. Since she didn't take that much damage against Kaido she obviously wouldn't have had to go that far.

There's been plenty of canon feats/statements in and outside the manga that establish a definitive level of parity between the Yonko. Big Mom fought Kaido for over an entire day at the very least. The Ace manga explained that all of the Yonko were so close that they couldn't afford an all out war against one another. Of course the list goes on, but I'm sure you're familiar with most of it, at least. Doesn't make any sense to dismiss all of that to push some argument that Big Mom loses to a version of Luffy that couldn't even make Kaido use the full extent of his strength. Especially when Big Mom & Kaido clearly didn't even fight seriously in the example you provided.

You'd essentially be arguing that Big Mom barely pushes Kaido to high diff, if even that. Which outright goes against what we've consistently been told of the strength relationship between the two.



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Yeah, but it's called scaling. She neg-diffed him, a literal one-panel. Obviously she doesn't neg-diff him anymore, but how much did Luffy grow in order to beat Big Mom at G2. The same Big Mom that low-diffed Queen whilst completely nerfed, the same Big Mom that had Marco at her mercy whilst nerfed and also at a natural disadvantage from his fruit, the same Big Mom that split the sky with Kaido. The same Big Mom that tanked Law and Kidd's first Awakening attacks. That's not even counting Bigger Mom, or Soul Healing, or AdCoC. The leap has to be completely ridicolous
> 
> There's absolutely zero doubt in my mind that she mid-diffs G2/G3.


That kind of scaling doesn't work because Luffy's recent leaps in strength _have_ been completely ridiculous. Luffy was also splitting the sky with Kaido _in base_. Luffy was also competing with a version of Kaido even stronger than the one that neg-diffed WCI G4 Luffy. Luffy was also winning exchanges against some of Kaido's stronger attacks.

Of course I don't think that Luffy wins in G2/G3, either. Just pointing out how citing an outdated version of Luffy for your example isn't a great way of proving your argument.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Mar 26, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Big Mom wasn't serious either as others have already pointed out to you. Against Law & Kidd she turned into Bigger Mom specifically because she had sustained more damage than she had in decades. Since she didn't take that much damage against Kaido she obviously wouldn't have had to go that far.
> 
> There's been plenty of canon feats/statements in and outside the manga that establish a definitive level of parity between the Yonko. Big Mom fought Kaido for over an entire day at the very least. The Ace manga explained that all of the Yonko were so close that they couldn't afford an all out war against one another. Of course the list goes on, but I'm sure you're familiar with most of it, at least. Doesn't make any sense to dismiss all of that to push some argument that Big Mom loses to a version of Luffy that couldn't even make Kaido use the full extent of his strength. Especially when Big Mom & Kaido clearly didn't even fight seriously in the example you provided.
> 
> ...


1) Her not using Bigger-Mom doesn’t mean she wasn’t serious. As you said Bigger Mom is a response to the amount of damage she takes. All this would mean is she took less damage from a Non Serious Kaidou then Law/Kidd, but doesn’t mean she wasn’t fighting seriously outside of this 

2) We just established BM fought a Non serious Kaidou for a day. And even if you want to say BM didn’t go all out ether, that still isn’t an indication of equality, as it can simply means Kaidou held back more then BM.

The novel and manga establish the Yonko as equal Pirates not equal in 1v1 combat.

- Kaidou clearly sees Shanks as a serious combatant but not BM; this heavily implies Shanks > BM

- Kaidou wanted to seriously fight WB; while he never acknowledge BM enough to get serious in their fight

- People say bet on Kaidou 1v1, people wouldn’t say this if the Yonko were all equal.

-etc….

I really don’t see anything that goes against what’s stated about their strength


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## Quikdraw7777 (Mar 26, 2022)

No disrespect to @MO  & @RossellaFiamingo  - but that big b**** is just not gonna get it done against G5 Mythical Model: *Luffy da GOD*.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) There are plenty of Instance where one fighter is serious and the other isn’t. Kaidou not being serious doesn’t not automatically mean BM also wasn’t serious. Sorry.



And yet you can't prove Big Mom was serious. Big Mom's indication of being serious against Law/Kidd was when she stated she hasn't felt this much pain in decades. That's how we knew she was serious enough to sacrifice her life span. Something logically would only drive her to do it if she was serious, or in danger.



Turrin said:


> 2) Kaidou didn’t cause as significant injuries as Law/Kid awakening on G2/3 Luffy ether prior to getting serious. So that argument does not work ether.



What the fuck does that even mean? Now you're just spewing shit in hopes of trying to make sense. You just said Kaido wasn't serious against G2/G3 Luffy, of course he's not gonna output Yonko damaging attacks like Law+Kidd Awakening + Nukes.



Turrin said:


> 3) Why do you think Puncture willie or Kids’s awakening are stronger then Dozens of Skysplitting Advanced CoC Attacks.



Because those sky splitting AdCoC attacks haven't been shown to put down a Yonko, while Kid+Law + Nukes did. Use your brain for 3-4 seconds, and maybe you'll reach a sound logical conclusion.




> And I don’t want to hear any circle jerk reasoning based on damage it did to BM.



You don't wanna hear about the only time attacks and weapons actually put down a healthy Yonko on panel?  How fucking convenient.

Don't wanna hear? Circlejerk? Yeah, I'm gonna get some mileage out of this. 

*I bring up Blueno, because it's the perfect representation of your posting history here. You stubbornly stick to one completely preposterous preposition, and when it expectedly fails, you double down on it making a mockery of yourself because you can't fathom the simple concept of you being wrong or ignorant. So what do you do, you twist completely irrelevant shit to confirm bias your claim.*




Turrin said:


> 4) I don’t deny it becuase I think BM loosing the way Blueno did to G2 to G5 is perfectly reasonable given the scaling Oda has presented



*I bring up Blueno, because it's the perfect representation of your posting history here. You stubbornly stick to one completely preposterous preposition, and when it expectedly fails, you double down on it making a mockery of yourself because you can't fathom the simple concept of you being wrong or ignorant. So what do you do, you twist completely irrelevant shit to confirm bias your claim.*




Turrin said:


> 6) Luffy grew massively lol; all your doing is underrating Luffy’s growth to come him to WCI.



To the point he can low/mid-diff a Yonko? You're either delusional or a clown, or both.



Turrin said:


> I don’t see BM have any feats of tanking repeated CoC sky splitting attacks



I don't see Luffy tanking Punctured Willie + Multiple Punk Rottens + Nukes in quick succession.

Also, Big Mom also split the sky with the Kaido, I assure you she can tank sky splitting attacks.

Hell look at Puncture Willie's range and the Nukes radius. That's easily sky splitting, if not sky shattering. 




Turrin said:


> 1) Her not using Bigger-Mom doesn’t mean she wasn’t serious. As you said Bigger Mom is a response to the amount of damage she takes. All this would mean is she took less damage from a Non Serious Kaidou then Law/Kidd, but doesn’t mean she wasn’t fighting seriously outside of this



She fought seriously without her serious form?



Turrin said:


> 2) We just established BM fought a Non serious Kaidou for a day. And even if you want to say BM didn’t go all out ether, that still isn’t an indication of equality, as it *can simply means Kaidou held back more then BM.*






Your whole argument is based on the foundation that Kaido didn't fight Big Mom seriously to a stalemate; but the matter of the fact is you can't prove Big Mom fought Kaido seriously, and thus, this is where the cracks begin to show. If by any chance Big Mom held back just as much, then there is no argument to be made. But I see you using words like "can" or "doesn’t mean" meaning you yourself can't tell for sure. The burden of proof is you. You simply can't prove Big Mom fought Kaido seriously. Especially when we know she didn't sacrifice life span to fight Kaido. Now who held back first in the fight? Irrelevant, because if Big Mom didn't use Bigger Mom, then it just simply means she was as serious as Kaido was, because she didn't think it was worth sacrificing her lifespan.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> And yet you can't prove Big Mom was serious. It's simple for even an oaf like you to understand, Big Mom's indication of being serious against Law/Kidd was when she stated she hasn't felt this much pain in decades. That's how we knew she was serious enough to sacrifice her life span. Something logically would only drive her to do it if she was serious, or in danger.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Are you arguing BM can’t fight seriously unless she takes massive damage first? Because that’s what it sounds like and if so that’s an absurd argument.

Beyond that even if I were to say grant you that BM never went Bigger Mom against Kaidou as she did against Law/Kidd after healing herself; that still would mean everything BM showed outside of bigger mom is inferior to G2/3 Luffy. That still scales BM WAY bellow G5 Luffy, as Bigger Mom was not even as significant of an amp as G4.

2) The fact that Nether Luffy and BM received that type of damage because Kaidou wasn’t serious is my point.

3) No Luffy’s hits failed to take down Kaidou. BM is not Kaidou, nor does she get to have his resilience/durability feats just because both hold the title of Yonko. Unless you can show BM tanking multiple CoC Hits then she does not have the feats to say she can do it; and you have no way to scale Law or Kidds Awakening above dozens of CoC attacks.

4) Dude your Mod, try to be better then deflecting with poor attempts at clown jokes when you don’t have an answer to someone’s argument.

When I say circle jerk reasoning I’m not saying we ignore that these attacks are strong for damaging BM; clearly they are. However we’re not talking about most characters in the verse, we’re talking about Kaidou; and therefore damaging BM is not enough to say they would damage Kaidou to the same degree. Unless you can prove BM is more durable/resilient then Kaidou (or at least equal) these feats aren’t scalable to Kaidou.

Without proving that it’s just circle jerk reasoning because your just presupposing BM is at similar or higher level durability as Kaidou; and then wanking the AP of these moves off that presupposition in a circular fashion.

5) When I’m talking about fighting seriously I’m talking in the context of what Kaidou is referring to as a serious / non serious fight; because that’s what we have been talking about this whole time. So for Kaidou this means taking the fighter in-front of him seriously and no fucking around like he did previously. It does not mean him necessarily using his triumph cards. For example even after getting serious against G2/3 Luffy he didn’t use the stronger attacks he later pulled out against G4.

In that same way BM can be serious against Kaidou in their fight but not bring out her Bigger Mom form. Especially since said for is best tactically saved for when she suffers a certain degree of damage.

6)  Lol, dude, something doesn’t need to be a fact to be much more probable and logically accepted. I use the word “could” because obviously we don’t know for sure as Oda could have BM come back and reveal she has 100 Zeus Homies in storage she didn’t bring to Onigashima or something stupid like that. So I’m only talking about what is most likely/logically the case.

And I’ve given the evidence for Kaidou holding back more then BM. But to reiterate for you.

1) We have a direct statement that Kaidou did not acknowledge or take BM seriously as a fighter; while in BM’s case we don’t have statements reflecting the same degree of sentiment

2) We know Kaidou doesn’t consider BM as someone who can actually fight him seriously like Shanks, Xebec, Roger, etc… which implies held back more otherwise she would not be able to fight him, as she is not among those people

3) Kaidou Drunk Form amped him way more then Bigger Mom Amped BM; therefore Kaidou has shown more power that he held back then BM thus far


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## Inferno Jewls (Mar 27, 2022)

Why is Luffy being matched up against a fodder? 

absolute troll thread

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## ShWanks (Mar 27, 2022)

Luffy is about to extreme diff 75% Kaido. If Gear 5 has no drawback Luffy wins, otherwise if it drains him he loses.

Old Big Mom is about 80-90% Kaido so I'm going with Big Mom. Luffy is about equal to or slightly superior to weakest Yonko Shanks rn.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShWanks (Mar 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Her not using Bigger-Mom doesn’t mean she wasn’t serious. As you said Bigger Mom is a response to the amount of damage she takes. All this would mean is she took less damage from a Non Serious Kaidou then Law/Kidd, but doesn’t mean she wasn’t fighting seriously outside of this
> 
> 2) We just established BM fought a Non serious Kaidou for a day. And even if you want to say BM didn’t go all out ether, that still isn’t an indication of equality, as it can simply means Kaidou held back more then BM.
> 
> ...


SHIKI and Mihawk  > Shanks, Oden and Luffy Kaido's top 6 is almost as retarded as you using that as a point to why Luffy defeats Big Mom.


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> SHIKI and Mihawk  > Shanks, Oden and Luffy Kaido's top 6 is almost as retarded as you using that as a point to why Luffy defeats Big Mom.


Prove Kaidou fought those 2 or you got nothing


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## ShWanks (Mar 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Prove Kaidou fought those 2 or you got nothing


Oh you're saying out of the characters Kaido has fought. My bad. I thought you were still implying those are the 5 strongest fighters to Kaido overall.

I still mantain Big Mom > That Luffy due to the fact she lasted THREE days against Kaido while Luffy got KO'd after a few minutes lmao. Thus still debunking your point.


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Oh you're saying out of the characters Kaido has fought. My bad. I thought you were still implying those are the 5 strongest fighters to Kaido overall.
> 
> I still mantain Big Mom > That Luffy due to the fact she lasted THREE days against Kaido while Luffy got KO'd after a few minutes lmao. Thus still debunking your point.


Luffy got Ko’d by a serious Kaidou; BM lasted 5 days against a Non serious Kaidou, is irrelevant to that. Kaidou himself is saying Luffy is better, so I take Kaidou opinion over yours.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Mar 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Luffy got Ko’d by a serious Kaidou; BM lasted 5 days against a Non serious Kaidou, is irrelevant to that. Kaidou himself is saying Luffy is better, so I take Kaidou opinion over yours.


Kaido literally told Big Mom he'd kill her if she came to Wano and she blew his threat off cuz she knew she was on par with him. He was sweating not to let her get into Wano and nearly had her drown...just because they were shown on good terms after the fight doesn't mean they weren't serious. This EXACT same thing happened with Roger Pirates vs Whitebeard Pirates. Nice Try. You also have no way of knowing if Kaido never used Hybrid during those 3 days.

Idk, Kaido was drunk and tends to say alot of B's when drunk. Him viewing Luffy's potential in comparison to other MALE figures isn't him saying Luffy > Big Mom. That's you misconstrued interpretation of the panel.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Are you arguing BM can’t fight seriously unless she takes massive damage first? Because that’s what it sounds like and if so that’s an absurd argument.



We have seen her playing with her food and ignoring near-dead SNs until she took that kinda damage. That was about the only time she was serious. Likewise, Kaido received a ton of damage from multiple characters before he took Luffy seriously. That's their in-character mindset, but I think that's complicated for you to understan



Turrin said:


> Beyond that even if I were to say grant you that BM never went Bigger Mom against Kaidou as she did against Law/Kidd after healing herself; that still would mean everything BM showed outside of bigger mom is inferior to G2/3 Luffy. That still scales BM WAY bellow G5 Luffy, as Bigger Mom was not even as significant of an amp as G4.



Nice headcanon. Non-Bigger Mom split the sky with Kaido, which is apparently your metric for Yonko damage. She still has AdCoC + Maser Cannon + Ikkakou (island range btw). All that would do damage to G2/G3. Meanwhile, we've never seen G2/G3 put down a Yonko. NEVER. And we'll never see it.





Turrin said:


> 2) The fact that Nether Luffy and BM received that type of damage because Kaidou wasn’t serious is my point.



That's not a point, that's forced correlation. Your entire point is that BM was as serious as G2/G3 Luffy against Kaido without presenting a shred of evidence. Unfortunately, you base your entire dumb argument on this, and it falls flat, so you double down on that headcanon just to make it make sense




Turrin said:


> 3) No Luffy’s hits failed to take down Kaidou. BM is not Kaidou, nor does she get to have his resilience/durability feats just because both hold the title of Yonko. Unless you can show BM tanking multiple CoC Hits then she does not have the feats to say she can do it; and you have no way to scale Law or Kidds Awakening above dozens of CoC attacks.



We've never seen her directly take AdCoC hits, but we've seen her use AdCoC, split the sky with Kaido, and also neg-tank YC attacks like they were nothing, while Kaido received damage from fucking Killer.

In fact, this is how both reacted to Law's non Awakening abilities:







See how Kaido mentions how Law can counter his durability:



BM didn't even bleed from Law until he used Awakening. As opposed to Kaido. Law's attacks are the most directly comparison between the two's durabilities, as they both suffered direct hits from him.

There is no evidence that BM and Kaido's durability aren't comparable. In fact, there's more reason to believe Big Mom's might even be better since it took an Awakening to make her bleed while Kaido bled from base YC attacks. I am merely giving Kaido the benefit of the doubt cuz I understand he's a massive tank.

You can't pick and choose which scales to which and which doesn't. 

Again, you fail to present a shred of evidence that Big Mom couldn't tank AdCoC hits because your whole dumb argument is based on this and so you childishly double down.




Turrin said:


> 4) Dude your Mod, try to be better then deflecting with poor attempts at clown jokes when you don’t have an answer to someone’s argument.



I didn't deflect. But the clown accusations are 100% warranted. 



Turrin said:


> When I say circle jerk reasoning I’m not saying we ignore that these attacks are strong for damaging BM; clearly they are. However we’re not talking about most characters in the verse, we’re talking about Kaidou; and therefore damaging BM is not enough to say they would damage Kaidou to the same degree. Unless you can prove BM is more durable/resilient then Kaidou (or at least equal) these feats aren’t scalable to Kaidou.



See above. Likewise, you can't say something that doesn't damage Kaido as much will damage BM to the point of her defeat when we see exactly what takes to bring her down.

Again, you can't pick and choose which scales to which and which doesn't. 




Turrin said:


> Without proving that it’s just circle jerk reasoning because your just presupposing BM is at similar or higher level durability as Kaidou; and then wanking the AP of these moves off that presupposition in a circular fashion.



Again, you can't pick and choose which scales to which and which doesn't.  



Turrin said:


> 5) When I’m talking about fighting seriously I’m talking in the context of what Kaidou is referring to as a serious / non serious fight; because that’s what we have been talking about this whole time. So for Kaidou this means taking the fighter in-front of him seriously and no fucking around like he did previously. It does not mean him necessarily using his triumph cards. For example even after getting serious against G2/3 Luffy he didn’t use the stronger attacks he later pulled out against G4.



Likewise, BM was only serious when she was Bigger Mom. That can be directly correlated to when she claims she hasn't been hurt like this in decades. Both statements are clear indication of seriousness.




Turrin said:


> In that same way BM can be serious against Kaidou in their fight but not bring out her Bigger Mom form. Especially since said for is best tactically saved for when she suffers a certain degree of damage.




Yet, you have zero reason to prove this. 



Turrin said:


> 6) Lol, dude, something doesn’t need to be a fact to be much more probable and logically accepted. I use the word “could” because obviously we don’t know for sure as Oda could have BM come back and reveal she has 100 Zeus Homies in storage she didn’t bring to Onigashima or something stupid like that. So I’m only talking about what is most likely/logically the case.



>something doesn’t need to be a fact

That pretty much sums your entire debating approach 



Turrin said:


> And I’ve given the evidence for Kaidou holding back more then BM. But to reiterate for you.



Nope. It's pretty much about the same evidence. Big Mom was playing with her food, laughing her ass off, and even ignoring her targets due to their crew's begging, until she went Bigger Mom.



Turrin said:


> 1) We have a direct statement that Kaidou did not acknowledge or take BM seriously as a fighter; while in BM’s case we don’t have statements reflecting the same degree of sentiment



Direct statement?

Fucking liar. 

I wonder why Kaido didn't just kill her instead of forming an alliance if she was easy-pickings. 



Turrin said:


> 2) We know Kaidou doesn’t consider BM as someone who can actually fight him seriously like Shanks, Xebec, Roger, etc… which implies held back more otherwise she would not be able to fight him, as she is not among those people



No we don't. That's headcanon.

BM was his ally at that point, of course he's not gonna consider her an enemy.



Turrin said:


> 3) Kaidou Drunk Form amped him way more then Bigger Mom Amped BM; therefore Kaidou has shown more power that he held back then BM thus far



Based on what exactly? Your headcanon?

One is an offensive form and the other is a defensive form.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Useful 1


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## Canute87 (Mar 27, 2022)

Been a while since I've seen  @Charlotte D. Kurisu  be flexin the debate muscle.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 27, 2022)

In fact, the mere fact that Big Mom bled was considered a highlight to the point it had to be mentioned, while Kaido bled multiple times before:



Tell me again, who has the durability hype? 


Or if Shock Willie, an Awakening attack wouldn't damage Kaido, when Law's non-Awakening attack did this to Hybrid Kaido:

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## ShWanks (Mar 27, 2022)

Exactly, but people keep trying to downplay Big Mom and wank Kaido like he's significantly above her because of bias.

But I thought it was always obvious Big Mom had superior durability while Kaido had superior endurance. Big Mom is mentioned to have never been injured while Kaido is mentioned to have unrivaled vitality.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Kaido literally told Big Mom he'd kill her if she came to Wano and she blew his threat off cuz she knew she was on par with him. He was sweating not to let her get into Wano and nearly had her drown...just because they were shown on good terms after the fight doesn't mean they weren't serious. This EXACT same thing happened with Roger Pirates vs Whitebeard Pirates. Nice Try. You also have no way of knowing if Kaido never used Hybrid during those 3 days.
> 
> Idk, Kaido was drunk and tends to say alot of B's when drunk. Him viewing Luffy's potential in comparison to other MALE figures isn't him saying Luffy > Big Mom. That's you misconstrued interpretation of the panel.


BM is driven by impulse not intelligence. Even if BM was equal to Kaidou; her coming into Wano with only a small portion of her crew would have surely meant her death if Kaidou wanted to kill her. So this shouldn’t be taken as anything other then a sign of BM stupidity. 
—-
Kaidou wasn’t serious because he literally stated he wasn’t; I’ve shown you the panel, you denying it and comparing this to Roger is not addressing what is verbatim said by Kaidou.
—-
He didn’t say makes figures; your adding to the text; he said those who could fight him seriously. BM would be there if she could do so.


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## Draco Bolton (Mar 27, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> We have seen her playing with her food and ignoring near-dead SNs until she took that kinda damage. That was about the only time she was serious. Likewise, Kaido received a ton of damage from multiple characters before he took Luffy seriously. That's their in-character mindset, but I think that's complicated for you to understan
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Toonrin bros...we failed again

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> We have seen her playing with her food and ignoring near-dead SNs until she took that kinda damage. That was about the only time she was serious. Likewise, Kaido received a ton of damage from multiple characters before he took Luffy seriously. That's their in-character mindset, but I think that's complicated for you to understan
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) BM toying with weaker characters does not mean it’s IC for her to toy with someone at Kaidou’s level. Show me where she has done so before with a character at that level, otherwise this isn’t an argument.

2) Luffy split the sky with Hybrid Kaidou (a better feat then sky splitting with Base); he still lost and had to come back stronger for Kaidou to actually acknowledge him as a fighter worth being serious against. So sky splitting isn’t demonstrating BM is beyond the G2/3 Luffy Kaidou acknowledge; and if Homie attacks like Mazer Saber were really enough to posse a serious threat to Kaidou he would have her among those who can serious fight him which he doesn’t.

3) Please prove to me counter shock scales to Gama Knife and Injection Shot; otherwise your argument of BM handling counter shock better then Kaidou handled these moves doesn’t work.

You also offered no evidence that they have the same resilience at all. So way more is needed for you to scale BM properly to Kaidou here .

4) I didn’t make any claim I simply asked you to prove your claim that Law or Kidds awakenings attacks are > the combined AP/Damaged of dozens of Luffy G2/3 CoC attacks.

The reason I’m not making any claim about the potency of Law/Kid’s attacks is because I don’t think there is anyway to scale them to anything right now as they have only been used against BM and BM has not been hit by any other high level attacks like CoC Coated Blows to scale off BM.

4) I already told you BM can be serious without using Bigger Mom and explained why, which you didn’t address. I also explained if you that even if I grant you that Bigger Mom > G2/3 Luffy > BM; that still would put BM way be slow G5, as even G4 is a bigger power amp then Bigger Mom was shown to be. So I don’t see how this argument helps your case at all

5) I’m totally fine with my debating approaching being summed up as something doesn’t need to be a fact only what’s most probable and logical. What basis are you debating from exactly if not this one? Just deflecting  with clown emoji’s that look surprising like BM herself?

6) How am I lying it literally states Luffy is the only fighter he’s acknowledge and gotten serious against in a long time.

7) Xebec, Roger, and WB are dead, he’s not considering them current enemies ether, he’s simply talking about who could actually fight against him seriously; and BM isn’t there, gee I wonder why….

8) Base on Drunk Allowing Kaidou to match the massive stat increase of G4; while Bigger Mom didn’t show anywhere near that stat amp. Even durability/defense wise it’s not like she went from not being able to tank Shock Willie to being able to do so. There was zero massive amp there


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2022)

Draco Bolton said:


> Toonrin bros...we failed again


Icegaze dupe your blocked

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## Yagami Uchiha (Mar 27, 2022)

Very hard to say. I’ll give it to Luffy high difficulty. Also, is the “tier specialist” (Luffy face) reaction a positive or a negative one? I’m confused since it has the stupid Luffy face haha.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) BM toying with weaker characters does not mean it’s IC for her to toy with someone at Kaidou’s level. Show me where she has done so before with a character at that level, otherwise this isn’t an argument.



And yet we haven't seen her be serious against Kaido. Nor was it ever implied that she was serious against Kaido. Nor did she using Bigger Mom against Kaido. In fact they ended drinking and forming an alliance. So, burden of proof is on you.



Turrin said:


> 2) Luffy split the sky with Hybrid Kaidou (a better feat then sky splitting with Base); he still lost and had to come back stronger for Kaidou to actually acknowledge him as a fighter worth being serious against. So sky splitting isn’t demonstrating BM is beyond the G2/3 Luffy Kaidou acknowledge; and if Homie attacks like Mazer Saber were really enough to posse a serious threat to Kaidou he would have her among those who can serious fight him which he doesn’t.



Maser Saber is a new improvised attack when Big Mom created Hera 

It was *you *who used sky splitting as a metric for Yonko damage. Big Mom can sky split and use AdCoC. Bullshitting an imaginary scenario from your mouth where somehow Big Mom can't sky split with her AdCoC when she sky split without AdCoC is the exact kind of circus I am talking about. 




Turrin said:


> 3) Please prove to me counter shock scales to Gama Knife and Injection Shot; otherwise your argument of BM handling counter shock better then Kaidou handled these moves doesn’t work.



I don't have to. Law could've used Gamma Knife and Injection Shot many times to _*hurt *_Big Mom yet he used Counter Shock on her twice when he had an opening and it was only when he used Shock Willie that it was highlighted that Big Mom bled.





But hey, even if CS doesn't scale to IS, we can at least scale it to the point that Kaido would react the to CS as Big Mom. I.e. Annoying Damage without bleeding. So yeah, their durability is pretty comparable from that. 

Also, funny how you're asking for proof that Big Mom tanking Injection Shot and Gamma Knife, yet you are absolutely certain G2/G3 can do enough damage to defeat Big Mom when there's no proof for that. It's as if you have an agenda or something.



Turrin said:


> You also offered no evidence that they have the same resilience at all. So way more is needed for you to scale BM properly to Kaidou here .



I just showed you how each took Law's non-Awakening attacks. That's the most direct comparison between the two. There's literally no better way to compare their durability. You're a fucking joke and a liar.



Turrin said:


> 4) I didn’t make any claim I simply asked you to prove your claim that Law or Kidds awakenings attacks are > the combined AP/Damaged of dozens of Luffy G2/3 CoC attacks.



Easy. One set of damage took down a Yonko, the other didn't.



Turrin said:


> The reason I’m not making any claim about the potency of Law/Kid’s attacks is because I don’t think there is anyway to scale them to anything right now as they have only been used against BM and BM has not been hit by any other high level attacks like CoC Coated Blows to scale off BM.



No you choose not to. Law's non-Awakening attacks already showed us how Kaido and Big Mom compare. We've also seen how Injection Shot made Kaido bleed. It's quite very easy to scale that Shock Willie and Puncture Willie would damage him. Also scale Kidd's attack and the Nukes. It's very easy to deduce that Kaido would at least tale extreme-diff level damage from those attacks.

It's already been 100% proven that Law's 100% work on Kaido, so yeah, Kaido aint scoffing at that combo at all.



Turrin said:


> 4) I already told you BM can be serious without using Bigger Mom and explained why, which you didn’t address. I also explained if you that even if I grant you that Bigger Mom > G2/3 Luffy > BM; that still would put BM way be slow G5, as even G4 is a bigger power amp then Bigger Mom was shown to be. So I don’t see how this argument helps your case at all



No. That's just your head cannon placement. You still can't prove Big Mom was serious. You still can't prove Big Mom < G2/G3 Luffy. None of your foundations are solid and can have arguments to build on. So your sub-arguments are also shaky.



Turrin said:


> 5) I’m totally fine with my debating approaching being summed up as something doesn’t need to be a fact only what’s most probable and logical. What basis are you debating from exactly if not this one? Just deflecting with clown emoji’s that look surprising like BM herself?



The fact that you don't need facts to argue and use your headcanon instead, is exactly the kind of clowning you deserve to be the recipient of.



Turrin said:


> 6) How am I lying it literally states Luffy is the only fighter he’s acknowledge and gotten serious against in a long time.



Likewise, Law and Kidd were the only ones to give Big Mom pain she hasn't felt in decades. 



Turrin said:


> 7) Xebec, Roger, and WB are dead, he’s not considering them current enemies ether, he’s simply talking about who could actually fight against him seriously; and BM isn’t there, gee I wonder why….



Doesn't matter. He doesn't need to refer to Big Mom as someone to surpass because she is his ally that he was planning to share One Piece with. Keep wondering, maybe you could give your brain the exercise it so desperately needs.



Turrin said:


> 8) Base on Drunk Allowing Kaidou to match the massive stat increase of G4; while Bigger Mom didn’t show anywhere near that stat amp. Even durability/defense wise it’s not like she went from not being able to tank Shock Willie to being able to do so. There was zero massive amp there



She can use Soul Healing you buffoon 

And that was only 1 year worth of Life Span, we have no idea how much stronger she'll be if she used more. That's still up in the air.

Reactions: Like 7


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## RossellaFiamingo (Mar 27, 2022)

Haven't seen a more brutal Ether since Nas vs Jay Z.  

Turrin getting bodied by the comedy mod.

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## Draco Bolton (Mar 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> your blocked


I'm glad to hear it 

In this way you will be able to devote yourself to what really matters to you (no distractions): i.e. Masters genitals, creating false translations in databooks/manga chapters to push your agenda, continuing to churn out tiers specialists statements, mechanically, like a Vegapunk robot  

Are you WG's SSG ?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## AmitDS (Mar 27, 2022)

If Kaido pulls out something new next chapter and still competes with G5 Luffy while he's weakened (though idk if Oda considers this as a handicap) then I'd have to say Big Mom (so do WB, Shanks, Shiki, Roger, Sengoku, Garp & BB) at least until the next arc.


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## ShWanks (Mar 27, 2022)

AmitDS said:


> If Kaido pulls out something new next chapter and still competes with G5 Luffy while he's weakened (though idk if Oda considers this as a handicap) then I'd have to say Big Mom (so do WB, Shanks, Shiki, Roger, Sengoku, Garp & BB) at least until the next arc.


He obviously hasn't used his own awakening yet. Yonko awakenings are being saved for their climax in the story. Luffy is gonna leave Wano in the same condition he "defeated" Katakuri in and Gear 5 will obviously have a time limit as he hasn't even mastered gear 4 without one yet.


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## Rp4lyf (Mar 28, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> He obviously hasn't used his own awakening yet. Yonko awakenings are being saved for their climax in the story. Luffy is gonna leave Wano in the same condition he "defeated" Katakuri in and Gear 5 will obviously have a time limit as he hasn't even mastered gear 4 without one yet.


Gear 4 cannot be mastered. It was a temporary form that was fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Gear 5 will be mastered, gear 4 cannot be. And Luffy is weakened as well. He took kaido's biggest attack in 1042 without blocking it clean.  *Even in this chapter he said he can fight for a little bit.*

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## ShWanks (Mar 28, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> Gear 4 cannot be mastered. It was a temporary form that was fundamentally flawed from the beginning. Gear 5 will be mastered, gear 4 cannot be. And Luffy is weakened as well. He took kaido's biggest attack in 1042 without blocking it clean.  *Even in this chapter he said he can fight for a little bit.*


That doesn't change the fact that Gear 5 currently isn't mastered. Luffy is weakened after fighting and losing to Kaido 3 times. Kaido is weakened after fighting 9 Scabbards, 5 Supernova, Yamato, Momonosuke, Luffy again (Rested), and Luffy AGAIN(Rested) all the while purposely taking every attack by not using Future Sight to still be at 100%.

Kaido would still be at 100% had he not "played with his food" but again, plot keeps saving Luffy in 1v1 fights.


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> And yet we haven't seen her be serious against Kaido. Nor was it ever implied that she was serious against Kaido. Nor did she using Bigger Mom against Kaido. In fact they ended drinking and forming an alliance. So, burden of proof is on you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) We have no reason to assume BM wasn’t serious against someone of Kaidou’s level threatening to kill her. Arguably BM best AP Feat is also that first clash with Kaidou too in canon. So unless you have evidence she wasn’t serious (which you clearly don’t) then it makes most sense to go wi  go the more natural assumption that she was.

2) Never said BM couldn’t sky split, your just straight up making that shit up now. And I fail to see why we should assume an improvised Mazer Saber is stronger then her CoC attack which split the sky with Kaidou.

3) How can we scale it to the point where Kaidou would react the same way too it. Your just saying we can via asspull. Also once again you have provided zero argument for BM resilience being comparable to Kaidou’s even if their durability was the same. So you still haven’t presented any real scaling here.
—-
I didn’t say BM would loose to one or two CoC Hits form G2/3 Luffy. I said I see no reason why Shock Willie or Kidd’s Awakening individually would be > *Dozens* of CoC attacks from G2/3 Luffy that hit Kaidou.

However, we can be sure that CoC Attacks from G2/4 Luffy would do decent damage to BM because even Base Luffy CoC Clashed evenly enough with Hybrid Kaidou to sky split; and BM went out of her way to block Base Kaidou’s CoC attack, so it’s not like she is just tanking CoC attacks at that level. Also the very fact that BM is hurt by moves like Counter Shock means she would take much more damage from CoC attacks, which scale much higher then any of R5’s pre-awakening

4/5) So just to be clear all you have is a false equivalency between two totally different attacks and a false equivalency that all Yonko have the same durability? Then you don’t even address resilience at all despite Kaidou’s hype largely coming from his resilience?

6) Nice attempt to shift the goal post lol. The argument was never about Shock Willie not damaging Kaidou at all. Of course it would damage him. The argument is about your claim that Shock Willie would do *more* damage then *dozens* of Luffy’s G2/3 CoC attacks. Which I’m still waiting for proof of.

7) I already explained to you in argumentation we go with what’s most likely to be the case. BM is most likely to be serious when confronted by WSC that says he’s going to kill her…

8) Stop making up lies. No one said they don’t need facts, I said not everything has to be fact for us to arrive at the most likely/logical conclusion.

9) So I didn’t lie about Kaidou not acknowledging BM, you lied about it. And now are simply falsely equating amount of damage to how serious someone is, K moving ob

10) Why does BM being an ally effect her ability to fight him. Especially when literally dead people (who aren’t going to presently fight him ether) and his ex captain (he was allied with) are among those 5; and he highlights constantly how Pirates can betray each other and that he doesn’t fully trust BM.

All your doing is making up some nonsense reason BM wouldn’t be included. It’s like saying well BM wasn’t included because on that day she stubbed her toe lol.

11) Soul healing is just going to delay the inevitable if she is massively out stat’d by Drunk Kaidou and G4 Luffy. As she will just keep getting clapped and healing over and over again.

Though her being able to spam Soul Healing multiple times mid battle is max head-canon right now considering she didn’t seem able to do so against Law/Kidd; and it was stated to consume her own life span which considering her age it’s unlikely she can spam something like that.


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## ClannadFan (Mar 28, 2022)

It's too early to tell, but a wise man would bet on Luffy.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) We have no reason to assume BM wasn’t serious against someone of Kaidou’s level threatening to kill her. Arguably BM best AP Feat is also that first clash with Kaidou too in canon. So unless you have evidence she wasn’t serious (which you clearly don’t) then it makes most sense to go wi go the more natural assumption that she was.



And have you no proof that she was serious. Big Mom is a Yonko, she doesn't give a darn about levels. Kaido got damaged plenty of times before he got serious. Whitebeard was facing fucking Admirals, and only got serious once Ace died. That's their character. The fact that Kaido and Big Mom were drunk and laughing after the fight proves none were serious. Are you telling me a serious Big Mom wont leaves scares/bruises on Kaido? You're even more delusional than I thought you were. 



Turrin said:


> 2) Never said BM couldn’t sky split, your just straight up making that shit up now. And I fail to see why we should assume an improvised Mazer Saber is stronger then her CoC attack which split the sky with Kaidou.



Maser Saber sliced through Kidd's Bison like butter. The same Bison that made her bleed. The fuck you on about. 

According to your metric, if she can sky split, then she can damage Yonko level characters, that included non-Yonko level character like G2/G3 in terms of damage output. So G2/G3 loses, simple as that.



Turrin said:


> 3) How can we scale it to the point where Kaidou would react the same way too it. Your just saying we can via asspull. Also once again you have provided zero argument for BM resilience being comparable to Kaidou’s even if their durability was the same. So you still haven’t presented any real scaling here.



Nope. Not an asspull. Tell me how Kaido will react to countershot? And then tell me how Big Mom would react to Injection shot. Overall, we've seen how they both react to Law's Non-Awakening attacks. And it's more or less comparable. Ergo, comparable durability.

And again, fucking funny how you're asking for proof when there's zero proof that G2/G3's attack would bring down Big Mom.




Turrin said:


> I didn’t say BM would loose to one or two CoC Hits form G2/3 Luffy. I said I see no reason why Shock Willie or Kidd’s Awakening individually would be > *Dozens* of CoC attacks from G2/3 Luffy that hit Kaidou.



Shock Willie and Kid's first Awakening attack together didn't put down Big Mom.



Turrin said:


> However, we can be sure that CoC Attacks from G2/4 Luffy would do decent damage to BM because even Base Luffy CoC Clashed evenly enough with Hybrid Kaidou to sky split; and BM went out of her way to block Base Kaidou’s CoC attack, so it’s not like she is just tanking CoC attacks at that level. Also the very fact that BM is hurt by moves like Counter Shock means she would take much more damage from CoC attacks, which scale much higher then any of R5’s pre-awakening



So it went from G2/G3 to G2-G4 now? And from defeating her to decent damage? 

Just concede my puny friend.

Also, guess who also got hurt by Law's non-Awakening attacks? So yeah, Kaido will also take much more damage from Kidd and Law's Awakening attacks and those nukes. Clown.

>and BM went out of her way to block Base Kaidou’s CoC attack

*Who's to say Kaido didn't block base Big Mom's CoC attack instead? It was an equal clash. You're so blatantly insincere it fucking hurts. *



Turrin said:


> 4/5) So just to be clear all you have is a false equivalency between two totally different attacks and a false equivalency that all Yonko have the same durability? Then you don’t even address resilience at all despite Kaidou’s hype largely coming from his resilience?



It was 3 attacks from the same form and Devil Fruit, even Oda himself can't spoon feed you this shit. If by resilience you mean Endurance, Big Mom got her arm literally broke to the point of it being limp and several ribs shattered and stood up laughing, something Kaido has yet to do. Well, he did get head bonks and saw stars last chapter so....

Tell me again about endurance/resilience. 



Turrin said:


> 6) Nice attempt to shift the goal post lol. The argument was never about Shock Willie not damaging Kaidou at all. Of course it would damage him. The argument is about your claim that Shock Willie would do *more* damage then *dozens* of Luffy’s G2/3 CoC attacks. Which I’m still waiting for proof of.



No, *you're* moving the goalposts. I presented you with proof that Kaido bled to injection shot, and Big Mom survived/tanked *MUCH *stronger attacks of the same attribute. Ergo, Kaido gets that life threatening damage from Law+Kidd+Nukes. Easy math. 



Turrin said:


> 7) I already explained to you in argumentation we go with what’s most likely to be the case. BM is most likely to be serious when confronted by WSC that says he’s going to kill her…



Again, no proof. A True Tier Specialist.



Turrin said:


> 8) Stop making up lies. No one said they don’t need facts, I said not everything has to be fact for us to arrive at the most likely/logical conclusion.



HHHHHHHHHHHHuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh?

This you:



Turrin said:


> Lol, dude, something doesn’t need to be a fact






Turrin said:


> 9) So I didn’t lie about Kaidou not acknowledging BM, you lied about it. And now are simply falsely equating amount of damage to how serious someone is, K moving ob



Not sure what you're even quoting anymore. Try multi-quote, are you purposely misdirecting in order duck inconvenient points to your agenda.



Turrin said:


> 10) Why does BM being an ally effect her ability to fight him. Especially when literally dead people (who aren’t going to presently fight him ether) and his ex captain (he was allied with) are among those 5; and he highlights constantly how Pirates can betray each other and that he doesn’t fully trust BM.



It's not the ability to fight him little buddy. It's that Big Mom isn't in his consideration because she's his ally.



Turrin said:


> All your doing is making up some nonsense reason BM wouldn’t be included. It’s like saying well BM wasn’t included because on that day she stubbed her toe lol.



Stick to Agenda Piece. 



Turrin said:


> 11) Soul healing is just going to delay the inevitable if she is massively out stat’d by Drunk Kaidou and G4 Luffy. As she will just keep getting clapped and healing over and over again.



See, this is why I accuse you of clowning. You don't even consider self-healing? 

Lemme guess, you're gonna count Kaido's regen tho.



Turrin said:


> Though her being able to spam Soul Healing multiple times mid battle is max head-canon right now considering she didn’t seem able to do so against Law/Kidd; and it was stated to consume her own life span which considering her age it’s unlikely she can spam something like that.



Doesn't matter. It's in her arsenal, one use of Soul Healing healed her broken arm and shattered ribs. So G2/G3 isn't gonna cut it. Sorry, you fail again.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> And have you no proof that she was serious. Big Mom is a Yonko, she doesn't give a darn about levels. Kaido got damaged plenty of times before he got serious. Whitebeard was facing fucking Admirals, and only got serious once Ace died. That's their character. The fact that Kaido and Big Mom were drunk and laughing after the fight proves none were serious. Are you telling me a serious Big Mom wont leaves scares/bruises on Kaido?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) I already told you we don’t need a statement saying BM is serious when it’s the most natural assumption when going up against the WSC whose saying he’s going to kill her in a deathmatch. Your arguing from an unlikely premise and therefore the burden is on you.

Also them being drunk and laughing only proves nether was serious by the time they agreed to form an alliance which is extremely obvious and does nothing to indicate BM wasn’t serious during the fight before an alliance was struck.

2) Named attacks aren’t always stronger then unnamed ones. Luffy throws dozens of named attacks at Kaidou that do little to nothing, then he damages him much more with unnamed CoC attacks. Just to give one example that clearly makes that claim false

Also no one doubts BM can hurt a G2/3 Luffy; your attacking a straw-man, there. And then even more bizarrely concluding that since she can hurt him that means she wins, even though being able to hurt someone doesn’t mean you can beat them.

3) I’m sorry but if your only response to the fact that your falsely equating two different attacks is calling me an idiot, and repeating the same false equivalency again, I’ll take that as a automatic concession that you have no real argument.

4) Shock Willie not bring down BM doesn’t matter unless you can scale Shock Willie over dozens of G2/3 attacks without relying on circle jerk reasoning, is the point I’m making. So once again where is the evidence that Shock Willie’s AP scales above this.

5) Your going to accuse me of being insincere while latching into a clear typo of a 4 instead of a 3 to deflect from actually addressing the point. Then proceed  to attack a straw man about how Law and Kidd awakening will hurt Kaidou more then their normal moves which was never in contention at all.

Your a mod try to be better then the average troll this time and answer the actual argument. If BM is hurt by counter shock would she not be hurt way more by G2/3 CoC attacks that scale way beyond Counter Shock in AP. Yes or no.

6) So your response is that attacks from the same Devil Fruit (that aren’t awakening) are all equal in AP, and even worse false equivalency then before? Just want this clear and on the record that you believe this.

And no resilience is the ability to take damage and keep fighting. BM after having her ribs broken was laughing but she needed to use her Soul Heal to repair herself, she didn’t just keep fighting like that. And before you say that her soul healing is part of her resilience, you need to show that she can consistently spam that through a fight rather then it being something she can only use a few times if she even gets the chance to.

7) Except once again this relies on a false equivalency between different attacks and argument I debunked above that doesn’t actually prove similar resilience between the two.

8) Saying something doesn’t need to be a fact, doesn’t mean you don’t need any facts to determine what is most likely. Why do I need to explain a basic concept to you? Aren’t you a mod whose been debating on this forum potentially match ups for years? I honestly can’t tell if you this daft or just pretending to be to avoid conceding the point

9) Says the guy going off on multi-quoting to again deflect from conceding a point. This is like your 5th deflection in this post alone

10) Repeating your baseless stance is not the same as providing a real reasoning behind it. I’ll ask one more time before I take this as a concession. Why would Kaidou not consider BM as someone with the ability to fight him just because she is presently allied with him; despite him considering dead characters, even onces he’s been allied with when they were alive.

11) I literally just accounted for self heal and explained why it wouldn’t effect the end result if she was massively out stat’d; and then your response is that I’m not account for it. So again attacking a straw man to deflect. This is what 8 deflections now

12) Once again unless you can prove BM can spam soul healing for long enough for Luffy to run out of stamina to use CoC and G2/3 the. Then saying Luffy looses due to soul healing is baseless.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Subtle (Mar 28, 2022)

Luffy wins, As far weaker fighters (Kid and Law) defeated her. Currently, this isn't debatable. G5 places him on another level.


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## JayK (Mar 28, 2022)

Big Meme is getting molested here.

Luffy always takes on the strongest opponent around which means if Meme miraculously survived getting shit on by the sidekicks she will end up being an afterthought for some shitter like Sabo while Luffy takes on Akainu instead.


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## BladeofTheMorning (Mar 28, 2022)

Luffy is now Yonk level. Love it. However this is nothing less than a high diff win for Luffy. Dare I say that it’s an extreme diff fight?


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## Heart Over Blade (Mar 28, 2022)

With Awakening, Luffy wins. BM hasn't shown that she's equal to an all out drunken Kaidou with FS. Their strongest attacks compared has Kaidou's Roaring Thunder Bagua easily ahead of BM's Misery. Roaring TB knocked aCoC Boundman Luffy, while Misery didn't knock out Kid and got one shotted by Law. She only clashed with Kaidou with neither one going all out. We know this because

1. Kaidou was more excited about fighting aCoC Luffy than he was about fighting BM. He said the last opponent who made him that excited to fight was Oden. We know it was about strength because it only got exciting after Luffy powered up. Meaning he didn't have to go all out to stalemate Big Mom.
2. BM said she hadn't taken that much damage in years, in response to Law and Kid's first Awakening attacks. Unless you think Kaidou using his ultimate repeatedly can't deal the amount of damage that Law and Kid's basic Awakening attacks did, it 
Suggests the fight with Kaidou wasn't an all out battle where they both busted out their strongest attacks.


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## ShWanks (Mar 28, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> And have you no proof that she was serious. Big Mom is a Yonko, she doesn't give a darn about levels. Kaido got damaged plenty of times before he got serious. Whitebeard was facing fucking Admirals, and only got serious once Ace died. That's their character. You're just too dumb to comprehend it. The fact that Kaido and Big Mom were drunk and laughing after the fight proves none were serious. Are you telling me a serious Big Mom wont leaves scares/bruises on Kaido? You're even more delusional than I thought you were.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You see how blatantly insincere they are when it comes to Big Mom? Biased ASF but I'll keep on spectating because I'm too lazy to waste time debating biased people in VS Battles.

People take ONE ATTRIBUTE of combat and think it gives automatic victory here. A guy literally thinks Zoro beats Marco because he Hits harder ignoring 15 other attributes of battle that most of Zoro is inferior to Marco in. Marco isn't even the type of fighter you can oneshot to begin with. He's literally Zoro's worst nightmare.


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## jesusus (Mar 29, 2022)

I've come... to snitch on this fight.


We have been waiting for you Akagami. Please, tell us what you know. We will hold an impromptu emergency meeting when you are done.

The Hito Hito no Mi, Mythological Model: Nika has another name...

Reactions: Funny 4


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## ShWanks (Mar 29, 2022)

jesusus said:


> I've come... to snitch on this fight.
> 
> 
> We have been waiting for you Akagami. Please, tell us what you know. We will hold an impromptu emergency meeting when you are done.
> ...


Shanks: Please provide me with your current best fruit so that I may neutralize the threat should he somehow defeat Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 1 | GODA 1


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## Abyssdarkfire (Mar 29, 2022)

I got Big Mom! Oda bout to have  serious serious Kaidou slap luffy up just to have black beard come in for the old sneak attack


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## Joker55 (Mar 31, 2022)

Could go either way


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## Beyblade (Jun 20, 2022)

Gear 5 Luffy extreme diffs. Big Mom has no answer to Bajrang Gun


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## killfox (Jun 20, 2022)

Beyblade said:


> Gear 5 Luffy extreme diffs. Big Mom has no answer to Bajrang Gun


Plot aside no one would take anyones strongest attack head on for no reason. Big Mom won’t tank it head on like Kaido did.


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## Beyblade (Jun 20, 2022)

killfox said:


> Plot aside no one would take anyones strongest attack head on for no reason. Big Mom won’t tank it head on like Kaido did.


Luffy was delaying his punch for Momo to move the island out of the way and could have pulled the trigger far earlier.

Big mom also has no speed to outrun an Island sized fist.


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## killfox (Jun 20, 2022)

BM wins. Base BM took awakening to damage.

Bigger Mom >>Kid+Law+ their crews without plot.

I don’t see Luffy beating Kid Law and their crews alone yet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## killfox (Jun 20, 2022)

Beyblade said:


> Luffy was delaying his punch for Momo to move the island out of the way and could have pulled the trigger far earlier.
> 
> Big mom also has no speed to outrun an Island sized fist.


Pretty sure Luffy tried to hold Kaido and got burned. Then Kaido said “don’t worry I won’t dodge I’ll take it head on” 

If he wanted to dodged it would mean Luffys death.


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## Beyblade (Jun 20, 2022)

killfox said:


> Pretty sure Luffy tried to hold Kaido and got burned. Then Kaido said “don’t worry I won’t dodge I’ll take it head on”
> 
> If he wanted to dodged it would mean Luffys death.


Kaido had no way of breaking out of it with his strength, only Flame Drum Dragon worked. His goal was to vaporize Luffy's arm too.

What's stopping Luffy from also dodging Kaido's attack? They both have shown to be capable of dodging each other.

The clash is inevitable, Top Tiers clash with their strongest attacks, it has always been the way.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 20, 2022)

Luffy high diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Jun 20, 2022)

killfox said:


> Plot aside no one would take anyones strongest attack head on for no reason. Big Mom won’t tank it head on like Kaido did.


She told Kid to shoot her with rail gun then he shot her off the island, she's gonna be dumb enough tank the attack.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## themightyvoosh (Jun 20, 2022)

Luffy 10/10 times at this point and probably without severe injury at that.


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## Ren. (Jun 20, 2022)

killfox said:


> If he wanted to dodged it would mean Luffys death.


No the context was that Luffy was not hitting the puch because the island what not moved.

The punch is not slow.

Also are you saying BM with the best defense will not have the pride to take that, well the manga disagrees.

Luffy extreme diffs or extreme diff either way.


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## Rp4lyf (Jun 21, 2022)

The moment It eas revealed that kaido and Luffy had Future Sight is the moment this fight became a midd to high diff win in luffy's favor.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ren. (Jun 21, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> became a *midd to high *diff win in luffy's favor.


I removed your Luffy fan membership.

Luffy is not high diffing a Yonko let alone mid.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Rp4lyf (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> I removed your Luffy fan membership.
> 
> Luffy is not high diffing a Yonko let alone mid.


*Luffy, Shanks and Kaido all high diff* *Big Mom*. She lacks future Sight, good adv CoC usage and does not have good battle iq.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Jun 21, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> good adv CoC


That is an Oda nerf.

In the batteldome BM win high- extreme diff vs Law and Kid and goes extreme diff either way vs Luffy while Luffy loses exteme diff vs Kaido when both are fresh.



Rp4lyf said:


> does not have good battle iq.


That is called PIS, not applicable in the battle dome.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Corax (Jun 21, 2022)

Barjang might not be even needed here. BM can't use FS and overall is quite slow so inevitably she will be hit by a lot of aCoC G5 attacks (far more than Kaido was). Her endurance also has a limit obviously and aCoC+aCoA combo ignores her iron body.


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## Rp4lyf (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> That is an Oda nerf.
> 
> In the batteldome BM win high- extreme diff vs Law and Kid and goes extreme diff either way vs Luffy while Luffy loses exteme diff vs Kaido when both are fresh.
> 
> ...


Those are excuses. She has never been shown to competent so, *she is not*. 

No amount of made up headcannon can change this.

She also lacks Future Sight which is means she loses high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 21, 2022)

We can't pretend people like BM and Law have equal battle IQ. Not even in battledome. It's out of character and giving BM ability she doesn't have.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

killfox said:


> BM wins. Base BM took awakening to damage.
> 
> Bigger Mom >>Kid+Law+ their crews without plot.
> 
> I don’t see Luffy beating Kid Law and their crews alone yet.


This


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> That is an Oda nerf.
> 
> In the batteldome BM win high- extreme diff vs Law and Kid and goes extreme diff either way vs Luffy while Luffy loses exteme diff vs Kaido when both are fresh.
> 
> ...


This also


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## Ren. (Jun 21, 2022)

Rp4lyf said:


> Those are excuses. She has never been shown to competent so, *she is not*.
> 
> No amount of made up headcannon can change this.
> 
> She also lacks Future Sight which is means she loses high diff.


Again mate PIS is irrelevant in the  battledome. 

We use all her feats.

She uses Adv COC on the get go.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jun 21, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> We can't pretend people like BM and Law have equal battle IQ. Not even in battledome. It's out of character and giving BM ability she doesn't have.


We also don't give law 100 final moves because the plot dictates so. 

We don't give them bombs and higher ground for her to fall from. 

We also do not forget to use Adv COC on Law and Kid when they were down.

We also use ikoku on they bodies when they are down and put Adv COC on that.

We also make homies each time kid make a meka to balance him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> We also don't give law 100 final moves because the plot dictates so.
> 
> We don't give them bombs and higher ground for her to fall from.
> 
> ...


 PREACH.


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## Ren. (Jun 21, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> PREACH.


I am not a BM fan but...


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> I am not a BM fan but...


Me either tbh I'm just not partial. I'm a Shanks fan but I don't let character designs or popularity influence my powerscaling.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> We also don't give law 100 final moves because the plot dictates so.
> 
> We don't give them bombs and higher ground for her to fall from.


This has nothing to do with fight IQ. First example isn't really good. Law's stamina ended when it actually ended, not when he says for the nth time "I'm about to run out". 
 BM also had outside help, as well as benefitted from PIS on Law and Kid's part.

They could've finished her when they initially knocked her off Onigashima by following her down and preventing Prometheus from saving her.


Ren. said:


> We also do not forget to use Adv COC on Law and Kid when they were down.
> 
> *We also use ikoku on they bodies when they are down and put Adv COC on that.
> 
> We also make homies each time kid make a meka to balance him.*


If only BM wasn't consistently stupid, then it'd be PIS. Since she is, we can't rule out she is just that stupid, especially under pressure. You don't need plot to induce stupidity when you're already stupid.


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## ShWanks (Jun 21, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> This has nothing to do with fight IQ. First example isn't really good. Law's stamina ended when it actually ended, not when he says for the nth time "I'm about to run out".
> BM also had outside help, as well as benefitted from PIS on Law and Kid's part.
> 
> They could've finished her when they initially knocked her off Onigashima by following her down and preventing Prometheus from saving her.
> ...


How is she consistently stupid battle wise? We've only seen her fight in her right state of mind ONCE. It's PIS. She didn't even know she was gonna be BFR so she could've done all of that once she made it back up if not for the unexpected bombs. Also, did she just randomly get amnesia & forget to punch Law with advanced conquerors Haki or was it PIS?


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## Ludi (Jun 21, 2022)

Post wano G4 Luffy might win. G5 Luffy high diffs at worst.

Reactions: Like 1


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## arv993 (Jun 21, 2022)

Hera is useless, prometheus isn't that helpful. Napoleon with adcoc is her best bet. This will go extreme if she uses adcoc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Again mate PIS is irrelevant in the  battledome.
> 
> We use all her feats.
> 
> She uses Adv COC on the get go.


Lol dude her only AcoC feat is using it once against Page 1; going by feats she is also not nearly as good at AcoC as Luffy or Kaidou.


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## Ren. (Jun 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Lol dude her only AcoC feat is using it once against Page 1; going by feats she is also not nearly as good at AcoC as Luffy or Kaidou.


How do you quantify that?

O wait she split the sky.

Do you read OP?


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2022)

Ren. said:


> How do you quantify that?
> 
> O wait she split the sky.
> 
> Do you read OP?


Unclear if Skysplitting is AcOc or just CoC. But ether way, this is something Base Luffy and Casual Kaidou did. Sky splitting is nowhere near their top level feat wise


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## killfox (Jun 21, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Unclear if Skysplitting is AcOc or just CoC. But ether way, this is something Base Luffy and Casual Kaidou did. Sky splitting is nowhere near their top level feat wise


This was base BM who did this as well.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2022)

killfox said:


> This was base BM who did this as well.


Bigger Mom didn’t show any better Haki then Base; or realistically even much better strength feats, just better durability. So this hardly matters as opposed to the huge jump in Haki feats from Base Luffy to G5


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## KBD (Jun 21, 2022)

BM mid-high diffs. It took two 3 billion men to take her down, Luffy is but one.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## killfox (Jun 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Bigger Mom didn’t show any better Haki then Base; or realistically even much better strength feats, just better durability. So this hardly matters as opposed to the huge jump in Haki feats from Base Luffy to G5


In her first appearance as bigger mom we see them both slumped at her feet with their crew begging.


This was a clear showcase of her increased power. So much so that plot stopped her from killing them while they were helpless.


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## trance (Jun 22, 2022)

luffy takes this

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KBD (Jun 22, 2022)

trance said:


> luffy takes this


Hopium

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 22, 2022)

Ruffy wins.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2022)

killfox said:


> In her first appearance as bigger mom we see them both slumped at her feet with their crew begging.
> 
> 
> This was a clear showcase of her increased power. So much so that plot stopped her from killing them while they were helpless.


Increased Power doesn’t mean increased Haki.


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## killfox (Jun 22, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Increased Power doesn’t mean increased Haki.


Haki blooms in battle.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2022)

killfox said:


> Haki blooms in battle.


Okay and…. That doesn’t mean BM had a Haki bloom by going Bigger Mom. There is literally zero evidence of that.


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## Perrin (Jun 22, 2022)

Big Mom uses up her entire life span, becomes biggest mom, punches luffy twice (one of which overcomes bajran gun), splitting the ground and knocking him into it as he loses consciousness. She then dies and Luffy pops out the ground a while later.
Half the OL claim luffy lost at the point of having an underground nap and the other half point out one of the combatants died.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## OG sama (Jun 23, 2022)

BM is getting owned by Bajrang Gun and as the manga has shown us, she is in fact going to be dumb enough to try and tank that shit, she did the exact same thing with Kids laser.

Luffy wins extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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