# Hashirama vs Nagato



## Bonly Jr. (Feb 20, 2013)

Current Hashirama vs Nagato

Knowledge: None
Distance: 30m
Restrictions: None
Location: Kimmimaro vs Gaara

Nagato is completely mobile.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 20, 2013)

Is Nagato crippled or mobile? Is he emaciated or in optimum condition?


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 20, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Is Nagato crippled or mobile? Is he emaciated or in optimum condition?



Thanks for reminding me. Yeah, he's mobile.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 20, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Thanks for reminding me. Yeah, he's mobile.



Should we assume he's emaciated or not? (Emaciated implies he's got less chakra than he would if he wasn't.)


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 20, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Should we assume he's emaciated or not? (Emaciated implies he's got less chakra than he would if he wasn't.)



Lol, he's got his original chakra pool. The one granted to him by his Uzumaki heritage.

Nagato is not weakened in any way.


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## Lurko (Feb 20, 2013)

Wood wood every where, wood dragon, wood clones, 1,000 wooden hands summon, wood forests etc


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 20, 2013)

Obd lurker said:


> Wood wood every where, wood dragon, wood clones, 1,000 wooden hands summon, wood forests etc



10,000*


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



It's been made crystal clear that Hashirama is on a different level at this point.

Hashi's Mokuton can physically defend against Mountain cutting strength, and he's dealt with the Bijuudama of the Kyuubi twice. Basically, Nagato can defend himself once with a massive Shinra Tensei, and then Shodai runs him over with the sheer scale of his attacks. Preta wouldn't prevent being crushed by the physical might of the Mokuton creatures.

Then we have Sage Mode, in which Hashirama's techniques dwarf Kyuubi-zord Susano'o. Shinsuusenju would crush Nagato like an _ant_.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2013)

Why do this to poor Nagato?


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well said man. Can't wait to see what Shinsusenju does!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 20, 2013)

Hashirama is on a league of his own... but what _hasn't_ he shown that the Preta Path can't nullify?


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## Joakim3 (Feb 20, 2013)

Hashi honestly stomps, a blight with _some_ difficulty due to no knowledge on rin'negan hax

Nagato would be forced to rely on Gedo Mazo & his summon armada just to simply defend against the ridiculousness of _Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan_ spammage (as _Fujutsu Kuyin_ doesn't stop him from being crushed), granted him camping on his bird summon could become *HIGHLY* problematic 

Eventually things escalate to large AoE like boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ & Gedo Mazo chakra roars & _Laser Explosion_ in which Hashi ups the anti with _Mokuton: Mokuryū no Jutsu_ & _Mokuton: Mokujin no Jutsu_. Gedo Mazo & the summons become a non factor at this point, at which point Nagato turns to uber nuking with CST & CT..... 

At which point Hashi enters SM....... at which point he proceeds to troll, stomp, humiliate & jailrape Nagato into oblivion with _Senpō: Mokuton Shinsūsenju_, in SM he's simply in a different league


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## Rocky (Feb 20, 2013)

I would advise restricting Sage Mode. Most will still support Hashirama, but at least it becomes a match rather than a slaughter.


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## Duality of Man (Feb 20, 2013)

Most important thing here is knowledge. 

Hashirama is always at a disadvantage because he's been dead for a century, he generally has no knowledge on any of the current ninja unless there's something that he can identify with. Though that doesn't matter here as they don't have any knowledge both ways.

I give Nagato the advantage here simply because Hashirama doesn't have knowledge on his gravity bursts and chakra absorption ability, which can really be more devastating in the surprise factor. Also, soul ripping is a rather unavoidable technique without knowledge. 

I assume Hashirama looks at Nagato as fodder, and as such attempts a shunshin blitz or Mokuton quick-grab, where Nagato will counter with an ST or Chakra absorption. 

I assume Nagato looks at Hashirama as some weird ass dude wearing Samurai armor and blitzes him like fodder. Where the above will happen. 

What happens after that ST/Chakra Absorption counter I can't really say since I've never seen Hashirama fight anyone without knowledge, does he immediately go all out? What technique does he use after his speed isn't sufficient and he realizes his opponent has strange powers? 

A final note, Nagato may be able to gauge the chakra density and capacity of Hashirama and automatically realize he is no normal fodder, giving him the advantage. 

I give this to *Nagato 6/10 Extreme Difficulty*. I know I'm gonna take some thrashing for this, but I simply can't see Hashirama catching on fast enough to use a sufficient amount of power to take Nagato out, especially considering how much he was holding back against Madara and the nature of his forgiving, lenient personality.


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## Jak N Blak (Feb 20, 2013)

Uncle Nagato can handle this.

But we'd need to give him more than the direct feats he's shown on panel and be FAIR and give him abilities that are HIGHLY probable he'd be capable of.

Example.
Although not shown, Nagato, especially in prime condition should be more than capable of sustainable flight and I'm talking zipping around DBZ-style once buffed further by his Asura Path abilities (rocket boots). That would give him quite the advantage and a higher chance of surviving against Hashirama.

Then he should more than capable of drawing chakra from the Gedo Mazo Statue which would allow him to amplify his attacks. Hell...the Gedo Mazo statue is well suited against Hashirama Snatch & Grab attacks once it uses things like its Shockwave roar and ThunderStorm.

Lets not go about underplaying the rut Chibaku Tensei would put Hashirama in once he's caught in it. Hashi could resist being crushed in it I'm certain but escaping it is a story of its own.


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## JoJo (Feb 20, 2013)

> Current Hashirama


Wouldn't that mean Edo Tensei Hashirama?


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## Katana King (Feb 20, 2013)

It honestley depends on Preta being able to absorb Mokuton. But even if it does the sheer amount of wood he can produce is ridculous. 

Nagato dies unless he goes for an instant Chou Shinra Tensei.


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## ueharakk (Feb 20, 2013)

You gotta at least restrict sage mode.

Even in base Hashirama was spamming mokuton dragons and creating wood arms as large as 100% Kurama.  I have no idea how Nagato wins this.

He wastes a huge shinra tensei on a mokuton dragon, hashi kills him with kyuubi-sized wood arms.  If we give him the ability to absorb any mokuton, hash puts him to sleep with flower tree world which he can't absorb instantly.


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## DraconianMithril (Feb 21, 2013)

Same thing with Akatsuki. If Each individual Pain body cannot Defeat Hashirama, then Nagato Automatically loses.

Hashirama's chakra levels are so high it would be futile to argue whether he can make 7 Mokubunshins or not. I say Hashirama makes a clone for every Pain body and Nagato himself. Then Since Each Clone is half as powerful as the Maker..then in Hashirama's case...see where I'm going?


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## Magician (Feb 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I would advise restricting Sage Mode. Most will still support Hashirama, but at least it becomes a match rather than a slaughter.



I agree, restrict Sage Mode and Hashi would still win, but it _at least_ won't be a stomp. Shinsūsenju surpasses anything we've ever seen in Naruto besides Juubi or PS.


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## Stermor (Feb 21, 2013)

can even large shinra tensei's bugde the wood? since if the kyuubi can't bugde them nor ps cut them.. it would require a shit load of force just to move it.. not sure nagato is capable of doing that without using cst.. hell actually can cst bugde them?? 

as for preta path.. preta can suck in the chakra from the wood.. but the wood is still wood.. and a mountain(or even kyuubi sized branches) of wood will still crush nagato.. 

anyway nagato has to pull out all stops to counter even relativly small portions of hashi's wood.. while hashi can control huge and huge ammounts..


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hashirama is on a league of his own... but what _hasn't_ he shown that the Preta Path can't nullify?



Flower World and its pollen and Bringer of Darkness come to mind.
Other than that, he doesn't seem to have other abilities that would affect Nagato (well, that 1000 hands statue is featless, so i'll not consider it).

Though, these abilities used in conjunction with the general Mokuton spam should suffice for win the battle.


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## Dominus (Feb 21, 2013)

inFAMOUS said:


> Vegeta wins



That's the only thing I'm sure about.


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## Prinz Porno (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm a huge Nagato fan but i dont see how Nagato can beat this guy. At this point, only Madara should be on the same level as Hashirama. Hashirama wins low-mid difficulty.


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## BroKage (Feb 21, 2013)

Most of Nagato's offense ends up useless thanks to power scaling.

Shinra Tensei - Resisted and reversed by 6TK, since Hashirama's wooden beasts can physically compete with full Susano'o Kyuubi it shouldn't scratch them.

Demon Realm and Animal Realm - Their damage output is plain too small to do anything to Hashirama's wooden beasts, and Hashirama can heal off the damage.

Hungry Ghost Path - Not that this would work anyway thanks to Hashirama's large amount of chakra to steal, but when he goes SM trying it is basically suicide due to Nagato being unable to manage sage chakra.

Human Path - Doesn't steal souls quickly enough against those with large chakra reserves, as seen when Nagato tried to kill KCM Naruto with it. Hashirama'll just snap it.

Chakra Rods - Overpowered by KSM Naruto, Hashirama should be able to handle them easily.

Bansho Tenin - Theoretically it could move Hashirama, but... Then what? We've established that nothing Nagato can pull Hashirama into will actually work on him.

Chibaku Tensei - Nagato had trouble making a ball big enough to contain 8TK, and SM Hashirama's summon is dozens of times bigger than the full Kyuubi.

What can Nagato even do? Fly around on his bird? Hide in the chameleon? Because he's not going to _hurt_ Hashi. And even if he could, he has Flower World's sleep pollen and Bringer of Darkness's blindness induction to contend with. Nagato's hax but this battle is like putting him up against a character from another series that just has higher power levels overall.


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 21, 2013)

I think we can all agree on leaving the 10,000 hand out of this. We don't even know what it's capable of. For all we know, it could just absorb chakra...


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## GunX2 (Feb 21, 2013)

Hashirama has shown nothing that is capable of putting down Nagato for good. Hashirama cant fly which Nagato can. Also shared rinnegan vision gives him a huge advantage. Dont get me wrong the fight would last alot longer then im making it sound. Whats going to save Hashirama if Nagato pulls him in and rips his soul out?


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## Rocky (Feb 21, 2013)

GunX2 said:


> Dont get me wrong the fight would last alot longer then im making it sound. Whats going to save Hashirama if Nagato pulls him in and rips his soul out?



A giant tree branch with the strength of The Perfect Susano'o Kyuubi erupting from the ground and crushing Nagato.....


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## The_Evil (Feb 21, 2013)

What will Nagato do against Mokuton beasts that tank point blank range BM explosions?

Or invisible pollen that sends him to sleep?

Or blindness genjutsu?

This isn't fair fight even without taking into account Sage Mode. Hashirama is simply on another level.


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## DraconianMithril (Feb 21, 2013)

Tobi and Nagato cannot hide from Hashirama anywhere, because Hashirama in SM would definitely Sense their location and he'd react to their attacks way to beautifully exactly how Naruto trolled 3rd Raikage or Kabuto trolling Uchiha-Bros. Then he'd blind them with with Bringer of Darkness, after that Mokubushin spam.


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## GunX2 (Feb 21, 2013)

The_Evil said:


> What will Nagato do against Mokuton beasts that tank point blank range BM explosions?
> 
> Or invisible pollen that sends him to sleep?
> 
> ...



1 Shinra Tensei is capable of dealing with all that. Nagato easily knocked 3 giant toads across the whole leaf village and he was using Yahiko path for this. Real Nagato's ST is on a whole nother level.


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## The_Evil (Feb 21, 2013)

GunX2 said:


> 1 Shinra Tensei is capable of dealing with all that. Nagato easily knocked 3 giant toads across the whole leaf village and he was using Yahiko path for this. Real Nagato's ST is on a whole nother level.



lol toads. BM evaporates mountains it's way stronger than than Shinra tensai and mokuton tanked that.. Not to mention using ST of this level drains Nagato life force and prevents him from using it again for substantial amount of time.

And how does St deals with invisible pollen or genjutsu is something I'd like to hear.


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## Shinryu (Feb 21, 2013)

Mountain size wood dragons solo


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## LostSelf (Feb 21, 2013)

If Nagato's preta path can absorb Hashirama's mokuton then this becomes a fight of who has the biggest chakra pool in my opinion. Until, of course, Senju of the thousand hands comes out and kills Nagato.


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## Shinryu (Feb 21, 2013)

some people forget Hashi has the most dangerous genjutsu Bringer of darkness


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## Joakim3 (Feb 21, 2013)

ChaosX7 said:


> some people forget Hashi has the most dangerous genjutsu Bringer of darkness



Nagato himself is a sensor on top of having a back up physical sensing technique via _Ujizokai no Jutsu_, he is SM Naruto, Mu sensing tier, bringer of darkness is not doing anything to a ninja of Nagato's caliper 

Nagato still loses with or without bringer of darkness


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## egressmadara (Feb 21, 2013)

He'd crush him.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 21, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> If Nagato's preta path can absorb Hashirama's mokuton then this becomes a fight of who has the biggest chakra pool in my opinion. Until, of course, Senju of the thousand hands comes out and kills Nagato.



_Fujutsu Kuyin_, can absorb Mokuton, the problem is how the trees are made.

If the _Mokuton_ is produced from Hashirama own body, then yes _Fujutsu Kuyin_ trolls and be completely absorbs it as the wood would not be "natural". If Hashi goes the gaara route and animates *natural* living wood, then Nagato can at best absorb the chakra from it but the actually wood itself would still be persist


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## The_Evil (Feb 21, 2013)

Mokuton is made from Hashirama own cells, I doubt Nagato can absorb it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2013)

blk said:


> Flower World and its pollen and Bringer of Darkness come to mind.
> Other than that, he doesn't seem to have other abilities that would affect Nagato (well, that 1000 hands statue is featless, so i'll not consider it).
> 
> Though, these abilities used in conjunction with the general Mokuton spam should suffice for win the battle.



Flower Tree World is an extension of Tree World, so it is made of chakra. Bringer of Darkness is a valid choice, however Nagato's a sensor. 
1000 Hands Statue, that's made from Mokuton _chakra_. 

Nagato only has problems absorbing Sage Mode directly while the user is entering it. So absorbing Senjutsu won't be a problem, he's done it against two Sages before. 

Now I asked what does Hashirama have that _can't_ be stopped with the Preta Path. You only told me about a Genjutsu; the rest are absorbent. 

This is one of the main reasons Nagato, or any Rinnegan user, is so hard to argue against in the battledome. One Path completely nullifies Ninjutsu, then you've got the other Paths on top of that. 

I'm sure Hashirama will reveal abilities that can help him beat Nagato. However right now he hasn't quite shown something that can help him.


I used to give Sages the benefits of the doubt and assumed that they could use the "ghost punches" Naruto used. However this is a Naruto exclusive thing given it is _frog_-fu. 
In other words I'm not going to assume Hashirama has the frog-fu.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Flower Tree World is an extension of Tree World, so it is made of chakra. Bringer of Darkness is a valid choice, however Nagato's a sensor.



I don't think that Nagato can stop the Flower World expansion process, it is far too fast and is omnidirectional.
The pollen would become a problem for him.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 21, 2013)

The_Evil said:


> Mokuton is made from Hashirama own cells, I doubt Nagato can absorb it.



When Hashirama animates or spams a forest of _Mokuton_ said forest is NOT produced from his body. 

Even if it was.... he'd still need *chakra* to control the trees (living or not).... at worst Nagato/Madara would absorb the chakra used to animate them, not the trees themselves


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2013)

blk said:


> I don't think that Nagato can stop the Flower World expansion process, it is far too fast and is omnidirectional.
> The pollen would become a problem for him.



Its still a Mokuton, as its made form chakra he can absorb it all by touching a piece of it. Though assuming it really is that troublesome, Nagato could just use CT or CST. That's assuming the Preta Path won't shut it all down.

The pollen would be an issue if he stuck to the Preta Path alone.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its still a Mokuton, as its made form chakra he can absorb it all by touching a piece of it. Though assuming it really is that troublesome, Nagato could just use CT or CST. That's assuming the Preta Path won't shut it all down.
> 
> The pollen would be an issue if he stuck to the Preta Path alone.



Well, i don't think that Mokuton can be literally absorbed with Preta Path (but stopped by it, yes, since the absorption of its chakra would prevent any further grow), since it was stated to create _living wood_, so the same should apply to the pollen.

Either way, you are right that Nagato can sweeps it away with a big Shinra Tensei.
But.... would Nagato even know that he would be inspiring a soporific pollen? Because none of them have knowledge of the other in this match.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2013)

blk said:


> Well, i don't think that Mokuton can be literally absorbed with Preta Path (but stopped by it, yes, since the absorption of its chakra would prevent any further grow), since it was stated to create _living wood_, so the same should apply to the pollen.
> 
> Either way, you are right that Nagato can sweeps it away with a big Shinra Tensei.
> But.... would Nagato even know that he would be inspiring a soporific pollen? Because none of them have knowledge of the other in this match.



What said living wood? If he manipulates actual trees, I can' see it happening. However Mokuton chakra does exist, so there's a chance that _he_ simply creates it. For example I don't think wood dragons just happen to exist without Hashirama using his chakra to create it. 

I imagine that without knowledge he wouldn't just walk in to pollen he knows nothing about. Though there's a chance he could walk into it and effectively lose the fight.

What we've got to ask is, what is Nagato going to do when someone spawns an entire forest to fight him. Preta Path is likely to be used on Ninjutsu that come for him. 

With no knowledge he might go for CST, but I believe Hashirama might be able to survive due to his healing. Hashirama living is what a sensor, Nagato, would detect. The question then becomes, can Hashirama stop the CT?

Assume he does, what then against the Gedo Mazo? Say he does well against that then what against he soul dragon?


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 21, 2013)

How the hell can Preta path absorb FTW? 

It's a forest the size of a small village, and you think one standing icon can absorb it all, let alone before he gets put to sleep?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> How the hell can Preta path absorb FTW?
> 
> It's a forest the size of a small village, and you think one standing icon can absorb it all, let alone before he gets put to sleep?



"FTW" is a Mokuton, the Preta Path can absorb jutsu. It has absorbed an element like Jinton before.

One standing icon stopped a massive beam of energy that destroys on a molecular level. Why not Mokuton?


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What said living wood? If he manipulates actual trees, I can' see it happening. However Mokuton chakra does exist, so there's a chance that _he_ simply creates it. For example I don't think wood dragons just happen to exist without Hashirama using his chakra to create it.



It was said long ago that the trees/wood that Mokuton creates from nothing, are alive.

So, he does create them, but they are also living beings.



> I imagine that without knowledge he wouldn't just walk in to pollen he knows nothing about. Though there's a chance he could walk into it and effectively lose the fight.



I don't think that the pollen is visible, and considered how fast its effect takes places, once that Nagato inspires it he will be put at sleep.



> What we've got to ask is, what is Nagato going to do when someone spawns an entire forest to fight him. Preta Path is likely to be used on Ninjutsu that come for him.
> 
> With no knowledge he might go for CST, but I believe Hashirama might be able to survive due to his healing. Hashirama living is what a sensor, Nagato, would detect.



Well, if Nagato uses a big Shinra Tensei for destroy the part of forest that comes towards him, then he will surely not be affected by the pollen.



> The question then becomes, can Hashirama stop the CT?



With what he shown so far, he really can't.
Though, if Nagato is defenseless while the CT is forming, Hashirama might kill him by attacking him with some wood.



> Assume he does, what then against the Gedo Mazo? Say he does well against that then what against he soul dragon?



I'm pretty sure that Wood Dragon, that Mokuton hands as big as 100% Kurama and some other wood, can restrict the Gedo.

Don't know what he can do against the soul dragon.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2013)

blk said:


> It was said long ago that the trees/wood that Mokuton creates from nothing, are alive.
> 
> So, he does create them, but they are also living beings.



Said by whom? I'm sure this is before we learnt: Mokuton = Suiton + Doton.



> I don't think that the pollen is visible, and considered how fast its effect takes places, once that Nagato inspires it he will be put at sleep.



How did Tsunade tell the rest of the Kage to avoid the pollen if it wasn't visible. 



> With what he shown so far, he really can't.
> Though, if Nagato is defenseless while the CT is forming, Hashirama might kill him by attacking him with some wood.



Where does this notion come from? Nagato being defenceless while CT is forming? I've seen nothing to imply this. God Realm could still move and Kabuto didn't move Nagato*.

*He commented on Nagato's hampered mobility. Nagato's mobility is fine ITT. Even then I see no reason why he can't defend himself with a ST.



> I'm pretty sure that Wood Dragon, that Mokuton hands as big as 100% Kurama and some other wood, can restrict the Gedo.



Even though Gedo has 7 Bijuu within it? What about its jutsu like the omnidirectional jutsu it used? Furthermore if Kurama can damage it, why not Gedo?


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## panda123456789e (Feb 21, 2013)

Unless Nagato flies way up into the sky and stays there, Hashirama takes this with his hands tied behind his back (Exaggeration....or maybe not.) Seriously, the 7 Paths of Pain lost to Naruto, who is WAAAY weaker than Madara (Not to mention Naruto hadn't even attained the Kyuubi's cooperation yet) , who Hashirama won against. Hashirama takes this, with or without sage mode. With SM it's a massacre.
EDIT: Not to mention we haven't even seen Hashirama's capabilities to their full extent yet.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Feb 22, 2013)

We've never seen Nagato absorb anything on the scale of Hashirama's attacks.

And it's been made clear Hashirama is on a different level. Nagato loses badly


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## Jυstin (Feb 22, 2013)

The power scaling ridiculously puts Hashirama in favor here.

If he were restricted to using only his penis, it'd be a slightly closer match.


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## Magician (Feb 22, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> The power scaling ridiculously puts Hashirama in favor here.
> 
> If he were restricted to using only his penis, it'd be a slightly closer match.



I hear from Madara that dat wood is quite large


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## blk (Feb 22, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Said by whom? I'm sure this is before we learnt: Mokuton = Suiton + Doton.



It was said by an anbu when Orochimaru summoned Hashirama as an Edo against Hiruzen.



> How did Tsunade tell the rest of the Kage to avoid the pollen if it wasn't visible.



Now that i saw that chapter again, it seems that the pollen is visible and that Mei was the one who said to not inspire the pollen.

It seems that the absence of knowledge will not be a problem, after all.



> Where does this notion come from? Nagato being defenceless while CT is forming? I've seen nothing to imply this. God Realm could still move and Kabuto didn't move Nagato*.
> 
> *He commented on Nagato's hampered mobility. Nagato's mobility is fine ITT. Even then I see no reason why he can't defend himself with a ST.



I said _if_ he is defenseless, Hashirama can stop CT by directly killing Nagato, but i didn't assumed this.
Why did i mentioned this possibility? Because Nagato needed to concentrate very much in order to create the CT, when he fought against Naruto, therefore someone could suggest that he can't use any other of his powers while he is subjected to such a mental stress.

However, i understand that this is a baseless notion, you can go ahead and ignore it.



> Even though Gedo has 7 Bijuu within it? What about its jutsu like the omnidirectional jutsu it used? Furthermore if Kurama can damage it, why not Gedo?



Seems like the Gedo has some great defenses against Mokuton.


Well, Nagato has more chances to win than what i initially thought.
However, Bringer of Darnkess used in conjuction with other techniques might still grant to Hashirama a win.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2013)

blk said:


> It was said by an anbu when Orochimaru summoned Hashirama as an Edo against Hiruzen.



So before we learnt Suiton+Doton = Mokuton. 

Though it is possible, no doubt he manipulates actual living trees. Regardless, Nagato would still obtain the benefits of absorbing the chakra.




> I said _if_ he is defenseless, Hashirama can stop CT by directly killing Nagato, but i didn't assumed this.
> Why did i mentioned this possibility? Because Nagato needed to concentrate very much in order to create the CT, when he fought against Naruto, therefore someone could suggest that he can't use any other of his powers while he is subjected to such a mental stress.
> 
> However, i understand that this is a baseless notion, you can go ahead and ignore it.



My bad, didn't notice the "if". 

That said, could you not argue that he isn't so stressed when he throws it as you can see here. Rather he adds more mental stress when he's trying to enhance the jutsu, as seen here and here?

Mind you the emaciated Nagato is Nagato with low chakra reserves for his standard; hence why absorbing chakra returns him to his prime look. That's something to factor in too.





> Seems like the Gedo has some great defenses against Mokuton.
> 
> 
> Well, Nagato has more chances to win than what i initially thought.
> However, Bringer of Darnkess used in conjuction with other techniques might still grant to Hashirama a win.



Though it does depend, can Nagato's sensory skills help him against the Genjutsu? Or does the Bringer of Darkness nullify more senses than vision?


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## Dusk Soldier (Feb 22, 2013)

I'll vote for Nagato, Hashirama hasn't shown anything to counter the phantom dragon.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Feb 22, 2013)

Bringer of Darkness genjutsu + any Mokuton jutsu = Nagato gets curbed

Seriously, what chance does Nagato have here?


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## Bonly (Feb 22, 2013)

I'd favor Hashi more times then not.

Nagato has the means to do a decent job here with Asura+Deva path. Nagato has missiles,head canons,rocket boots to fly, and an arm canon. 
With Deva path he has normal size ST, a ST that was used on Gamatrio and a ST that destroyed the leaf as well as CT.

So with all of the above Nagato can fly up in the air via rocket boots and use his Asura+Deva powers to constantly destroy wood that comes towards him although he might get overwhelmed due to the sheer size of Hashi's wood(:ho) coming from multiple angles. This wood likely come down to who can outlast who. Both are chakra tanks but I believe after seeing how Hashi is taking on EMS Madara with Kurama and doing multiple wood techs on such huge levels as well as has a Sage Mode to further increase every stat and all his jutsu, Hashi would easily outlast Nagato. And depending on next chapter,this might solo as well. Nagato's good and at a high level but Hashi is on a higher level.


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## blk (Feb 22, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So before we learnt Suiton+Doton = Mokuton.
> 
> Though it is possible, no doubt he manipulates actual living trees. Regardless, Nagato would still obtain the benefits of absorbing the chakra.



Oh, don't get me wrong.
I'm not arguing that Preta Path is useless against Mokuton, but that it cannot literally absorb the wood (since it was stated to be living).
I believe that it can _stop_ any wood coming at him by absorbing the chakra the make it grow, but not absorb the wood directly; Preta Path would still counter most of the Mokuton jutsu, either way.




> My bad, didn't notice the "if".
> 
> That said, could you not argue that he isn't so stressed when he throws it as you can see here. Rather he adds more mental stress when he's trying to enhance the jutsu, as seen here and here?
> 
> Mind you the emaciated Nagato is Nagato with low chakra reserves for his standard; hence why absorbing chakra returns him to his prime look. That's something to factor in too.



Well, i was talking about Nagato himself, not Deva Path.

He seems to require a lot of concentration while creating the Chibaku Tensei [1 ; 2].

But as i already said, this can't prove that he cannot use any other of his powers during the process, so the point is moot.




> Though it does depend, can Nagato's sensory skills help him against the Genjutsu? Or does the Bringer of Darkness nullify more senses than vision?



Bringer of Darkness nullifies only the vision, for what we know.

However, if Nagato can't see, he might fall against a jutsu like Flower World, which he will not know how big it is and will not even be able to see the pollen.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Feb 22, 2013)

Whereas I do think hashirama will win this, I don't quite think it will be a stomp as a lot of people seem to be suggesting.

Look at the firepower that Nagato has, CT alone will cause a fuck load of problems with Hashi, all the wood he produces will just get sucked up. Think about it, if CT can rip apart mountains and the ground you stand on, I think it can quite handily suck up some wood... (no sexual pun intended)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2013)

blk said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong.
> I'm not arguing that Preta Path is useless against Mokuton, but that it cannot literally absorb the wood (since it was stated to be living).
> I believe that it can _stop_ any wood coming at him by absorbing the chakra the make it grow, but not absorb the wood directly; Preta Path would still counter most of the Mokuton jutsu, either way.



True. Hopefully Hashirama's story clears things up.



> Well, i was talking about Nagato himself, not Deva Path.
> 
> He seems to require a lot of concentration while creating the Chibaku Tensei [1 ; 2].
> 
> But as i already said, this can't prove that he cannot use any other of his powers during the process, so the point is moot.



Alright, although I'd like to point out that when he was 'healthy' he didn't seem to have such an issue (he used it like how God Realm did). 




> Bringer of Darkness nullifies only the vision, for what we know.
> 
> However, if Nagato can't see, he might fall against a jutsu like Flower World, which he will not know how big it is and will not even be able to see the pollen.



In that case, what would his sensory abilities? (Including the rain.)
Wouldn't he he able to sense the chakra from the jutsu you described?


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## Lurko (Feb 22, 2013)

Hashi rapes hard, nagato isn't on his level.


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## blk (Feb 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In that case, what would his sensory abilities? (Including the rain.)
> Wouldn't he he able to sense the chakra from the jutsu you described?



The utilization of the rain isn't very IC for him (and we don't really know the specifics of it).

However, he may sense that a big jutsu is coming, but without the vision he will have no idea what it really is.

Yes, without knowing what he is facing, he may use a big Shinra Tensei for be secure, but since without vision his mobility will be severly diminished, Hashirama will have plenty of time for prepare a plan.

There are several combos that can have the work done.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2013)

blk said:


> The utilization of the rain isn't very IC for him (and we don't really know the specifics of it).
> 
> However, he may sense that a big jutsu is coming, but without the vision he will have no idea what it really is.
> 
> ...



We're not sure what really makes IC Nagato as Nagato was never given a chance to really fight. Fight controlling his own body. Further it seems these jutsu are used on a need basis i.e. they use it if there's a need. For example Itachi wouldn't needlessly use an exploding clone unless he needed it.

If Nagato felt he needed it, I see no reason for him not to use it. The databook goes into detail with the rain jutsu's mechanisms.

Rain Tiger? at Will Technique (雨虎自在の術, Ukojizai no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, All ranges
User: Pain

Is this heavenly net of rain, falling down and enclosing, the tears of a god grieving for his village?

A perception ninjutsu, allowing one to freely manipulate rain infused with the user's own chakra. In the village of Amegakure, it rains each week on Sunday... This rain falls from rain clouds, formed with Pain's own chakra. During this technique, the falling raindrops are closely linked to pain's senses. When the rain is obstructed by a chakra belonging to someone not of the village, the existence of the intruder can be detected. Also, in order to function in the "place" where the technique was invoked, the rain will keep on falling until Pain uses the seal to cancel it. Therefore, when Pain leaves the village, he always uses this technique, keeping a close eye on the village of Amegakure.

[picture of Pain using this technique]
→When Pain unleashes the technique, the rain falls. The hunt for intruders begins...

Covering the village is a strict, vigilant net!!

[picture of the rain falling down on Amegakure]
↑The rain seems convenient for infiltrating. However, it is a definite trap.​
It is closely linked with his senses, sounds like something he'd need if he's not got his vision. It compliments his sensing ability too.

Though you may have a point about the ST/CST point. However you can argue right after that Nagato will do all he can to compensate for his lack of vision. Perhaps the rain jutsu; or he may be able to get out of the Genjutsu. That's based on his chakra mastery.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 23, 2013)

blk said:


> The utilization of the rain isn't very IC for him (and we don't really know the specifics of it).
> 
> However, he may sense that a big jutsu is coming, but without the vision he will have no idea what it really is.
> 
> ...



Nagato uses the rain as mean of sensing the entire villages population, it's essentially how he tracks the Ame population and how he found Jiraiya. Id think if he was forced into using it he could (and with the rep Hashi brings.. Nagato would hold ZERO back)

Nagato sensing allows him to pinpoint targets, i.e he would know where the attack is coming from, i.e Karin on steroids.

Second whats Bringer of Darkness AoE? seeing if he had a summon (shared vision) outside the perimeter the former would be rather pointless


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## Deleted member 175252 (Feb 23, 2013)

Does Gedo Mezo play any part in this? surely it will cause Hashi some problems...


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## Joakim3 (Feb 23, 2013)

PrazzyP said:


> Does Gedo Mezo play any part in this? surely it will cause Hashi some problems...



Hashi was able to keep 100% Kurama at bay, Gedo Mazo while powerful is not doing any better even with chakra roars, lighting and so forth. 

If Nagato's syncs with the statue on the other hand...... THEN it becomes MASSIVELY problematic, as the _Soul Dragon_ is psuedo intangible and if Hashi touches it in the slightest.. well it's GG


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## blk (Feb 23, 2013)

Ok, i agree about the rain jutsu, it can be usefull.

However, Bringer of Darkness still diminishes Nagato's mobility pretty badly (he cannot "sense" how the battlefield is around him) and gives to Hashirama the possibility to plan something after seeing Nagato's abilities.

Though, Nagato might still win this by using a big CT, to which Hashirama didn't really show a counter.



Joakim3 said:


> Second whats Bringer of Darkness AoE? seeing if he had a summon (shared vision) outside the perimeter the former would be rather pointless



It is a genjutsu, so i don't think that it has an AoE. 
More likely, it nullifies the vision by deceiving the mind of the victim, by making it think that the same is inside a dark dome, or something like this.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Feb 24, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Hashi was able to keep 100% Kurama at bay, Gedo Mazo while powerful is not doing any better even with chakra roars, lighting and so forth.
> 
> If Nagato's syncs with the statue on the other hand...... THEN it becomes MASSIVELY problematic, as the _Soul Dragon_ is psuedo intangible and if Hashi touches it in the slightest.. well it's GG



agreed. But whats to say Nagato HAS to be synced with gedo to actually summon the soul dragon? Can't he just summon it normally?


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