# Challenger Arena - Shazam (SM Jiraya) vs Ziggy Stardust (Living Itachi)



## t0xeus (May 26, 2020)

*Challenger Arena Battle (Third Battle)*

*@Shazam  vs @Ziggy Stardust *​
*
Match: *SM Jiraiya vs Living Itachi
*Location: *
*Knowledge: *Manga
*Mindset:* IC + Killing Intent
*Distance: *25m
*Restrictions: *Kotoamatsukami

*Win conditions: *
Shazam - Jiraiya wins 50% of the times
Ziggy Stardust - Itachi wins majority of the times.
*Word count*: 500-1500 words per post.
*Number of posts*: 4 posts total (1 intro, 2 rebuttals, 1 conclusion)


*This thread is for Shazam, Ziggy Stardust and the judges only.*

*Other posters can observe or show encouragements via Like, Dislike etc. If you want your own match, go challenge someone here:*
​*Judges for the match:*

@Shark
@Veracity
@Cherry
@Mawt
@Atlantic Storm
@Soul
@FlamingRain


*Spoiler*: _Judging Criteria_ 





Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
Creativity (The creativity)
Structure (The structure/flow of argument/Visually appealing)
Factual (Are they using logical/factual contents from the manga?)
Persuasiveness (How persuasive were they? Did they convince you?)

On the basis of S, A, B, C (+/-)

For example:
*Analysis - S+*
(Followed by reason - How far did they go to analyse a situation? The level of thinking and detail?)

*Creativity - A-*
(Followed by reason - New methods of winning that you didn't previously thought of? Combinations that you didn't know existed?)

*Structure - B+*
(Followed by reason)

*Factual - C-*
(Followed by reason - Point out things you see seriously wrong. Point out on things you didn't previously know. )

*Persuasiveness - S+*
(Followed by reason - Did you change your mind on the match up? Did you gain a new perspective?)

Reactions: Like 12


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## Shazam (May 26, 2020)

@FlamingRain Pin this please for now until its over. 

@Ziggy Stardust It will take me a day or two to start

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sufex (May 26, 2020)

Does jman start in sm or not?


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## Mawt (May 27, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Does jman start in sm or not?


Yep


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## Troyse22 (May 27, 2020)

I look forward to reading the arguments and the 4 valid judges analysis', good luck you 2


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## hbcaptain (May 27, 2020)

Both are solid posters, Looking forward for their debate.


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## Lurko (May 27, 2020)

Is Ziggy bloodlusted?


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## Tsukuyomi (May 27, 2020)

I can't wait.


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## Santoryu (May 27, 2020)

Judge of the Judges intervention:


*'This thread is for Shazam, Ziggy Stardust and the judges only.*

*Other posters can observe or show encouragements via Like, Dislike etc. If you want your own match, go challenge someone here'
*
Henceforth, please keep this in mind.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Troyse22 (May 29, 2020)

Is this a debate thread or not? Someone start ffs


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> @Ziggy Stardust It will take me a day or two to start







Shazam said:


> Dude make your opening post already.....





You'll have to excuse my opponent boys.  He's having a little trouble getting it up.  You know  and all that. 

I'll start this.


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> You'll have to excuse my opponent boys.  He's having a little trouble getting it up.  You know  and all that.
> 
> I'll start this.




@Ziggy Stardust this is not the place to be meme'ing and junk posting as you usually do. If you are not able to go first thats fine, just say so.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I will try to keep it short. 




*Portrayal no Jutsu

Link Removed 
*

The last words uttered for a dream match that piqued the curiosities of fanboys far and wide.  The last words uttered in _canon _at least.  When Orochimaru invaded the leaf he chipped away a portion of it's military strength along with their general. The Third, who at least by repute, was their strongest asset bar one. The last strongest lieutenant, Jiraiya.  I think we can agree he takes first spot to an undeveloped Kakashi, Might Guy and a wayward Tsunade, who's part one fighting skills are much less impressive than her 106 cm bust.  The time for ignorance has been over for more than a decade.  Is it really any surprise knowing what we know about Itachi's _true_ affiliation, that he would not want to kill or seriously injure the last strongest lieutenant?  Does debating the Jiraiya vanguard have to always be a game of pointing out the earth is not flat.

_*.... But He ordered the heads of Kurenai and Asuma ....*

*.... He tried to kill Kakashi! .... *

*.... He would have done in Jiraiya, if he could !...*_


*An Agent Who Pretends*
_
*Link Removed*
_

Pretending for whom?  You might say Kisame, but also the reader.  He needs to play the role of Akatsuki man, the villain who committed patricide, matricide and fratricide for nothing but personal gain. The twist can't be too obvious.  Nonetheless, there some hints to the truth of it.  Kakashi, to his own surprise, was spared death, the leaf wouldn't lose much without Kurenai & Asuma and he must have somehow gambled on Tsukuyomi's effects getting healed eventually, having cast it on Sasuke.  He can and did get away with all of this.  But maiming Jiraiya, comatosing him, or worse yet, killing him would have ensured the rape of Konohagakure by neighbouring nations.  Kisame's explicit refutation of Itachi's lie and part two's revelations paint a rather stark picture of the Portrayal no Jutsu at hand.  And if you can open your mind to truths this obvious, then you might discover the world isn't flat too..


*A False Parallel*

*Link Removed*


It _was_ a staple argument to parallel SM Naruto = MS Sasuke.  To say both surpassed their predecessors and declare the "mentors" themselves equal.  That Sasuke only beats Itachi after the EMS puts a wrench in that argument.  Databook IV doesn't hold back. Pain arc Naruto is still rather starkly painted as Jiraiya's superior by both feat and hype.  So if we continue along that same line we get Itachi => MS Sasuke = SM Nardo > Jiraiya.  It's no wonder why the false parallel isn't brought up anymore. That isn't to say the parallel theme is useless.  I think that MS Sasuke and SM Naruto _did_ overtake their respective *teachers*...


*A True Parallel *

*Link Removed*


Naruto and Sasuke attain forms that surpass both their old teachers. FKS Sasuke is still romanticised as a younger Orochimaru by Kakashi, who left the village to seek power only to come back to destroy it. Naruto, the friend who failed to stop him.  Obviously a comparison the Jiriaya vanguard wants to avoid... but it's narrative abundance is too hard for the discerning reader to gloss over. By the parallels, you can replace Jiraiya for orochimaru both times against a serious Itachi with little difference in result.  The portrayal no jutsu is on Itachi's side and his been since part one.  However, when we talk about match ups, I don't think 3t alone is enough to make the toad croak, not in SM anyway.  But he does have 3 surefire methods to kill this Sage off the bat.


*The Nightmare Realm 

Link Removed 

*
After realising the woman he courted was a sharingan puppet, Jiraiya confronted Itachi and _seemed_ to look into his eyes.  We can forgive him that, but that he left Naruto with genjutsu training destined to fail against Itachi or Sasuke is inexcusable... the former of whom was _hunting_ him and the latter of whom was his goal and target.  Naruto, despite spending 3 years with Jiraiya alone, did not know that eye contact with Itachi's is a non starter.  He only discovered the news when Kakashi exposited Tsukyomi's nature in part two.  Now we can deduce two things from this - Jiraiya is innately pathological and deliberately stunted his godson's training.... or he thinks a strong enough Kai seal or the parter method protects Naruto, and by extension himself.  In other words, Pervy Sage will probably go into the fight without any special measures, relying on Ma & Pa as his illusion defence, meaning that the old toad experiences a few days torture in a mere moment before his final croak.


*3rd Eye *

*Link Removed*


Jiraiya might not be smart enough to avoid eye contact, but if he is, then Itachi can simply touch transfer tsukuyomi into Shisui's eye (the crow).  It will not take him long given that Jiraiya will probably start off the fight dancing or in mid ginyu pose, extolling his romantic or battle exploits like he did against Hanzo's killer.  A crow summoning and a touch is no problem for the fastest hands in the manga.  if he can transfer Mangekyou techniques into another eye, as he did with Sasuke in his last moments, then the theory works fine.  It's as solid as Yomi Numa landing and sinking "x",  only far more deadly.  Of course, if Jiraiya is in some way compromising his own vision to fight Itachi, all the worse for him against the next two techniques.


*Unblockable Fire*

*Link Removed *

According to Jiraiya and the databook the fire breathing toad stomach has never been breached. That he believed two S-rank ninja would've been swallowed there and then tells us that conventionally high level ninjutsu and weaponry is out of the question. There's a large difference between the highs : killing cerberus, disintegrating sasuke's CS wings, threatening to kill hachibee... and the lows : leaving Samurai unharmed, slowly burning trees.  It's pretty clear to me that the caster has some degree control over how hot this technique burns, which might have to do with chakra input. An Amaterasu with intent to kill going to be lethal to Jiraiya, even if he's clad in protective hair.  Not that he can react to it once it's cast.


*Unavoidable Fire*

*Link Removed*


Jiriaya knows how hot the fire burns.  However, the technique was not cast in front of him.  Not knowing how fast it travels...that it simply appears to spawn on targets at a certain range.  A4 skimmed it using a Bijou level body flicker... his max speed.  And of course, he was tipped off by looking at Sasuke's eyes first.  Something Jiraiya can not afford here. The speed of it means cannot rely on whatever semblance of sensing prowess he may or may not possess.  The premier mangekyou techniques alone are enough.  An Itachi victory is based on a decision on his part, the decision to win..


*The Sword & The Sake

Link Removed *


The final weapon of the trifecta.  Can Jiraiya evade?  Depends on whether he's faster than Nagato or Orochimaru can think.  Edo Nagato could activate barriers before KCM Naruto and Bee with intimate space, both of whom are on V2 A's plain of speed.  On the other hand, the Human path could react to Jiriaya in a puff of smoke. From what I can tell the Totsuka blade is faster than Sasuke's arrow... but the _true_ beauty of it lies in the fact that a sword swing can change trajectory if it misses.  Can Jiraiya tank?  If the Totsuka blade is formless, an ethereal object in nature as reported, than no physical defence will even interact with it. It will slip through the strongest wall like an apparition.  But if it does have a physical limit, it's at least stronger than the thick protruding bones of Kimmimaro as channelled by Sage Kabuto.  If Jiraiya shows us an aptitude of skill beyond what manga pages depict by avoiding Amaterasu & Tsukyomi, then final trump card should seal him for good.


*Countermeasures #1 : feint
*
*Link Removed*


If a perfect jins attacks are foiled, the same can certainly be said for any jutsu Jiriaya has, and those tentacles were able to intercept Minato.  It can indeed troll all offensives:  Swamps, Fires, Chakra Spheres, Wild Hair, Frog Call (which probably doesn't work on shinobi), Wind, Oil etc.  And yes... it can be cast with just a finger.   If for some fan fiction tier reason genjutsu is off the cards completely he can do the same with a crow clone.. Just like with Kabuto.  


*Countermeasures #2: Side Step No Jutsu

Link Removed 

*
Jiraiya claims hair needles are his fastest offence covering a wide range, yet Itachi can dodge blindsides from Bee's while swapping hands with KCM?  It's just another cost effective method at negating Jiraiya's arsenal, and it's not like shunshin is limited in range either.  The _theory _that AOE attacks are undodgable is an idea born from Sanninband dreams...  you simply upgrade to _big side step no jutsu_ if the person you're arguing for is good enough.  This is of course, is assuming that Itachi is in a playful mood and doesn't try to end the match in the three ways outlined straight away.  If all fails, there are the lesser forms of Susanoo to fall back on as a defense for Jiraiya's attacks.  V4 isn't needed. 


*Countermeasures #3 Rebuking LOS Blockers

Link Removed 
*

Itachi is already capable of evading attacks without looking as seen above.  He did the same to Naruto's clones taking his back in the _Itachi Pursuit _arc.  But even while partially paralysed, blinded and deafened by White Rage, his insightfulness allows him predict an opponents next move.  But beyond that, he can literally see through solid rocks with his Sharingan...  If Jiraiya thinks he's safe in the cover of physical smoke bombs, he's doomed.  The only other option is Ma's Wind Style used blow up dust against Pain.  But as low ranked wind style, it's only fuel for amaterasu or even Katon.  Their attempt to block Itachi's LOS would result in their cremation... and that's true for which ever method they chose.


*Addendum*

Against Itachi, with intent to kill under in character conditions, the Toad Sage will exhale his last croak.  Jiraiya does nt behave like a genius.  The match is his to lose regardless of in-character foibles that have been his stock and trade since the manga's inception. If he acts goofy even in front of opponents he deems seriously dangerous (pain), he can lose this match instantly.  He needs perfect knowledge and the savy to make an immediate retreat for Frog Song to even eek out a one out of ten.  To stand a chance against Itachi, he needs to be smarter than Itachi.  But alas, he's not.

Reactions: Like 18


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## Soul (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
> Creativity (The creativity)
> Structure (The structure/flow of argument/Visually appealing)
> Factual (Are they using logical/factual contents from the manga?)
> ...



Please elaborate on how this works.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

Expect my opening tmrw

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (May 30, 2020)

sorry but i'd like to withdraw as a judge. I got a few stuff going and I'll be a bit busy


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Soul said:


> Please elaborate on how this works.




@t0xeus 

The judging criteria is a little daunting.

I think you need to streamline it to judges writing a few bullet points of good and bad arguments made for both sides as it pertains to how each combatant beats the other, with a verdict at the end.  You might scare a few people off with a daunting grading system and categories.




Cherry said:


> sorry but i'd like to withdraw as a judge. I got a few stuff going and I'll be a bit busy



I think if the judging criteria is streamlined, then all you will have to do is read the arguments on both sides once everything is done (shouldn't take long) and make a verdict.  This isn't such a big contribution it will only take an hour (if you type slow) once all the arguments have been made.  If you leave now ShazzyG may not post.


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## Shazam (May 31, 2020)

*Spoiler*: _Title _ 



Opening Post for Jiraiya - My goal for this opening post is not to try and re-iterate the manga to you, as you all (at least I hope) have read the manga and watched the anime. You saw, you read the same material as I. Actually, my goal is to simply remind you all of who Jiraiya's character is and what he represents in Kishimoto's manga. I want to paint the picture of the standing of Jiraiya - My posts about how the fight will flow against Itachi will be made as my second post (rebuttal). But at the start, I think it is important to remember who we are talking about first and foremost!

Hope you enjoy!


 - Read 

*Portrayal: The Manga's Depiction of 蝦蟇仙人, Gama Sennin

*
_
*Hiruzen was much younger at this time - Considered strongest of the Gokage  DB 1 pg 162 
*Minato held immense knowledge of characters like the Raikage and Killer Bee when making this statement 
*Likelihood is high that he also knew of the other Gokage members at this time

Lets quickly lists Jiraiya's accolades 

*Spoiler*: (0) 



1: Base Jiraiya defeated Konan within seconds.


2: The village doesn’t expect Kakashi, Gai, or Tsunade to handle Pain, instead putting their hopes on Naruto. It is later said Gai wouldn’t make a difference against Pein and that a Sage is effectively needed. This reinforces Jiraiya’s superiority to the rest of the village that only a Sage with Jiraiya’s summons and several of Jiraiya’s Jutsu who has Jiraiya as his benchmark can be expected to stand up to Pain.


3: Pein said Jiraiya would have defeated him if Jiraiya knew his secret from the start. If you disagree it doesn’t matter. Jiraiya already showed he could evade all Six Paths while missing an arm, and Nagato already underestimated the Frog Song. If Jiraiya knew it was Nagato from the start and Nagato had no knowledge of the Frog Song, Jiraiya would have defeated Nagato with it.

4: Jiraiya while in Sage Mode defeated Three Paths of Pein without taking a scratch. The statement about potentially dying against them is irrelevant because Jiraiya put multiple conditions to that statement which were later dealt with when Jiraiya figures out they only had one ability each, had a shared field of vision, and defeated them all swiftly without injury.

5: Whether you think Jiraiya lived up to his reputation or not isn’t relevant. After Jiraiya’s death it was directly stated by Obito that Jiraiya lived up to his reputation. We also had both Pein and Zetsu suggest Pein was held up for a decent amount of time, and Black Zetsu comes out and says it isn’t surprising given his opponent was Jiraiya, once again implying that Jiraiya is strong enough that it would be expected that he hold up to Pain for an extended period.


6: Base Jiraiya defeated Kn4 in Base with extreme difficulty. Jiraiya had the advantage of the key to seal Kn4 while operating with the disadvantage of no killer intent.

7: Itachi said Jiraiya would be evenly matched with him, and had to use the MS to counter Base Jiraiya’s ability.

8: Jiraiya was considered Konoha’s only chance to defeat Orochimaru. Even though Old Hiruzen was still regarded as the strongest of the Five Kage. Telling us that Jiraiya is regarded as above the Five Kage.

9: Jiraiya evaded all Six Paths by himself with only one arm and permanently defeated One Path. All of Konoha failed to permanently defeat One Path.

10: Jiraiya is a village level threat. Jiraiya speculates early in PII that he isn’t sure a village like Suna could stop him. This later reinforced when we see one armed Jiraiya outperform all of Konoha against Pein and we see Jiraiya enter Amegakure while expecting to fight a High Kage alone. Jiraiya and other people both seem to believe he is capable of fighting villages competently or standing up to village level threats competently.

11: Kakashi thought it was reasonable to believe that Jiraiya was what was preventing the Akatsuki from attacking Naruto. Meaning Kakashi believes risking a fight with Jiraiya might be ballsier than everything else the Akatsuki has done up to that point and that it was reasonable to assume that Jiraiya was strong enough to defeat multiple Akatsuki members solo. Kisame also thought Jiraiya could handle multiple Akatsuki members by himself.

12: Base Jiraiya would have defeated Kisame within seconds, Jiraiya had a location advantage). Kisame also admitted he had no chance against Jiraiya.

13: Minato wants to fight Jiraiya more than anyone. This implies that Jiraiya would put up atleast some fight against Minato.



_

From the very beginning, Kishimoto placed high importance and relevancy on Jiraiya in the manga. The Toad Sage would help lead & mold the destiny of the Child of Prophecy that would either grow up to save or destroy the world  *[]*

This makes perfect sense when considering that Jiraiya is Kishimoto's favorite character (despite popular belief that it was Itachi) that he would portray Jiraiya in the brightest of lights. 

*Spoiler*: _(1)_ 








And although often used in the NBD to meme, this aligns with how Kishimoto views Jiraiya's importance to the manga 


Jiraiya was offered the Hokage seat on 3 separate occasions: Once prior to the Third's retirement, Once after the Fourth's death and Once again after the Third's death

*Controversial Topic on Portrayal: *

We have little that actually ties Jiraiya directly to Itachi in the manga. What do I mean by that? I mean there is little canoncial statements that involve both of these characters in direct relation to one another bypassing the ever-so bad ABC logic which is a fan-favorite here for the support of Itachi. 



*Spoiler*: _ABC Logic Flaws _ 





There are many threads in the past about the failures of ABC Logic here - This is one simply outlines the issue

Some members of the NBD are seemingly using the ABC logic in their attempt to gauge and explain different hypothetical battles that we all set up here. I wont name them directly, but after I explain how this logic fails to follow through as a good method of logic, hopefully they will stop using it as if it works.

With the series Naruto specifically, ABC logic does not work. It would work in a series like Dragon Ball Z for example perfectly as its all about power levels there. Its simple...

If character A beats character B, then it meant he had a higher power level, thus as long as B's power level is higher than C's, the logic follows as A>B>C.

This is not the case with Naruto. Its not about 'power level' because the fights are not as linear as that. Far more so in Naruto as opposed to a series like DBZ, is that match ups, conflicting fighting styles, thousands of different sets of jutsu, some that set you up for another and some that are just OHKO's, elemental advantages and disadvantages, strong characters with low speeds and high speed characters that aren't that strong; these ups and downs with the series of Naruto is why A>B>C logic fails with this series and prevails with other series.

In the series of Naruto, when Character A beats Character B, what does that mean, likely? No its not because of his Naruto series 'overall' power level, think again. Likely, it'd have something to do with an advantage he has over his opponent. Maybe it was elemental advantage, maybe it was chakra/stamina advantage, maybe his jutsu worked perfectly against the opponent, maybe he speed was far to superior, and maybe it was a combination of all. Point is battles in Naruto can be won or lost with just the smallest advantages.

Character A might have the advangates in certain areas that gives him the edge over Character B that he might not have over Character C, where it just happens that Character B advantages lay. Thus instead of ABC, we have C>A>BC. (Sounds a lot like the Sannin now doesn't it)

*What is ABC logic exactly?*




*Spoiler*: _ABC Logic Flaws _ 








If Character A & B fought, Character A wins

If Character B & C fought, Character B wins

Thus, without doubt and with total certainty, Character A also beats Character C

This above is what ABC logic looks like. Just plug in the names of the characters. As I said, it works fine with a series like DBZ because Power Level >>>>> All things. As long as A's power level is the highest, that's all that matters.

_Can you imagine why that doesn't work with the series Naruto? Take a guess, shot in the dark if you need to._






*Example #1 *- This depicts the first statement that directly ties Itachi to Jiraiya and how they relate to one another in character standing. 

What is there to gather from this panel? Kisame is the biggest part, not what Itachi states because he is a double agent (oddly enough this means whatever he says or does not say should be taken with a grain of salt) 

Kisame; who is well aware of Itachi and his abilities in combat, he of course has seen what his sharingan can do and what abilities Itachi possesses 
Kisame does not say that Itachi CAN take on Jiraiya, what he says is, _"even if you might be able too"_...
We can confidently say that given this and what we can expect that Kisame know's about Itachi, he is unsure still that Itachi can even take Jiraiya on.
Furthermore is flat out states that he himself is not capable of fighting Jiraiya (remind ourselves this is the same Kisame who forces Gai to use 7th Gate and pressures Bee who isn't using his Full Bijuu state), the same Kisame who took down the 4 Tails Jin by himself without showing signs of injury



*Example #2* - This depicts Kakashi (widely considered among-st the most insightful characters in the manga), Hokage Tsunade, and Jiraiya in a room discussing the capture of Itachi Uchiha. This is another closely made dialogues concerning both Itachi and Jiraiya (the few that we even have). 

What can we gather from this? Lets take a look. 


As we know Kakashi is a mastermind strategist, arguably top 3 in the series. Kishimoto has established Kakashi's character as such (holding a max rating of 5 in intelligence in the DB). Its clearly one of his better traits. 
We know that Kakashi has intel on Itachi with the Mangekyo Sharingan. Why is that important? Because that is Itachi's trump card, and Kakashi got to see first hand what it can do (tsukuyomi) 
Despite knowing this, Kakashi is confident that he does not need to ask for Jiraiya's help in taking on Itachi to capture him
Jiraiya is also important here. Why? Because not only does he know that Itachi's MS exists with him and that it can cast a massively strong genjutsu that nearly took out Kakashi, Jiraiya also knows that Itachi uses a strong black flame called Amaterasu. Why is that important? Since we are talking about portrayal here in this section its important to realize how Kishimoto had Kakashi and Jiraiya feel when it came to Itachi, neither of these characters felt the necessity to be together for this mission
Jiraiya instead opts to go after the leader of the group that housed a character like Itachi, rather (we see this later on in the next chapter or two I believe) 





*Jiraiya's Death to Pain -*

Many times I think we devalue Jiraiya's performance against Pain. It was the only opponent at the time Kishimoto found fitting enough to fight Jiraiya at his best, the Akatasuki Leader 

Let's take a look at these panels here. What can we gather about Jiraiya's portrayal even in death?


Pain gives his highest praise to Jiraiya - 
We can see that Fukasaku makes the statement that nobody could ever beat Pain without knowing the extent of his powers (what Jiraiya was up against) 
We know that Fukasaku says only Jiraiya could have done as well as he did against Pain - This goes against the idea that Orochimaru, Tsunade are his equals, we are explicitly being told that Jiraiya is superior right here in this indirect manner 
Obito in the panel below stating that Jiraiya has lived up to his reputation by making the "All-Knowing, Unstoppable" Pain struggle (his hands were full with Jiraiya). Pain does not disagree and states that now they can go to Konoha (speaking on the level of deterrence Jiraiya was to the Akatasuki) 
Kishimoto illustrates Nagato/ Itachi (The Akatsuki Members), Danzo/Shisui (The Koto Incident), and then we see Jiraiya is mentioned, together, this panel illustrates Jiraiya being amongst the highest value pieces that Kabuto desired and the ones that would prove to be his strongest assets 

*Spoiler*: _Honor in Death_ 












*My Quick Thoughts On Parallels: 
*

I don't want to spend much time on the topic of parallels because its mostly a fan-made idea that helps us depict which characters belong in which group. The problem is the story is an ever-moving timeline, and so there can be depicted multiple parallels in the manga (especially over time). What we have with Itachi and Jiraiya is the influences Jiraiya had on Naruto parallels to the influence Itachi had on Sasuke. Because of Itachi, Sasuke was driven to kill Danzo. Because of Jiraiya's death, Naruto was driven to take out Pain. Because of Itachi, Sasuke awaken the MS, because of Jiraiya, Naruto learns SM. Itachi and Jiraiya also died at virtually the same time in the manga just as the Main and Co-Main characters came to eclipse their standing.

With that being said I want to just quickly state that the portrayal that some hold on Itachi in the DB claiming that Sasuke only surpasses Itachi with EMS is a bit of a hasty interpretation. The short passage depicts Itachi and Sasuke reuniting and coming back as brothers (hence the flashbacks during the Kabuto fight), it represents Itachi's will to open up to Sasuke and provide him the truth of what he's been hiding, and standing behind Sasuke no matter what he decided to do there on out.

*Concluding the Opening Post: *

This does it for my first post, I wanted to make sure we know exactly who we are discussing before the flow of the battle arguments come about. 

As you can see, Jiraiya is very much so portrayed above of the individual Gokage, above his peer Sannin (refer to the Fukasaku's statement in the presence of the 5th Hokage my Sannin friends), and high enough that the leader and superior of Itachi believed him to be a difficult and challenging opponent. 
.
Pain > Jiraiya 
Pain > Itachi 

Jiraiya = Living Itachi (they go even more times than not)

That is my win condition 50/50.



Thanks for you time!

Reactions: Like 18


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## Shazam (May 31, 2020)

This is two rebuttal attempts per myself and Ziggy correct? @t0xeus


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Shazam said:


> This does it for my first post, I wanted to make sure we know exactly who we are discussing before the flow of the battle arguments come about. Thanks for you time!


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## Shazam (May 31, 2020)

Was this your rebuttal? Should I go ahead an post my follow up then?

If not, then quit with the immature BS fogging up the thread like this. Plenty of other threads where this is your best work anyways

Its exactly why I wanted @FlamingRain to oversee it

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

I'm ever so sorry shazzyg

I just got a sense of deja vu reading parts of your post.  Like I'd already seen them before





Shazam said:


> Some members of the NBD are seemingly using the ABC logic in their attempt to gauge and explain different hypothetical battles that we all set up here. I wont name them directly, but after I explain how this logic fails to follow through as a good method of logic, hopefully they will stop using it as if it works.
> 
> With the series Naruto specifically, ABC logic does not work. It would work in a series like Dragon Ball Z for example perfectly as its all about power levels there. Its simple...
> 
> ...


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## Shazam (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I'm ever so sorry shazzyg
> 
> I just got a sense of deja vu reading parts of your post.  Like I'd already seen them before



Yeah... its my post.

Make your second post.

You are clouding the thread and its annoying


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yeah... its my post.
> 
> Make your second post.



No need to rush, afterall, every good play has it's intermission. 



> You are clouding the thread and its annoying



I was actually wondering about that.  I  think we should let other people comment on the thread, for discussion purposes and what not.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yeah... its my post.



I'm also glad to have finally got this admission out of you. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



After a year of gas lighting.


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## Shazam (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> No need to rush, afterall, every good play has it's intermission.
> 
> 
> 
> I was actually wondering about that.  I  think we should let other people comment on the thread, for discussion purposes and what not.



No. Its all about the Judges. Nobody else is needed or necessary. And posts that aren't the actual debate posts are irrelevant


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## Soul (May 31, 2020)

I agree with Shazam that cluttering the thread with memes and baits is not only unnecessary, it's annoying. And I never agree with him.

Reactions: Like 9


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 1, 2020)

I don't care.

The memes will continue.


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## t0xeus (Jun 1, 2020)

Shazam said:


> This is two rebuttal attempts per myself and Ziggy correct? @t0xeus


Yup.


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I don't care.
> 
> The memes will continue.



Because you _are_ the meme. 

Now make your second post kid.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 1, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Because you _are_ the meme.
> 
> Now make your second post kid.





Genuine question : Is there a deadline for posting?


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Genuine question : Is there a deadline for posting?



Yes. Today.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 1, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yes. Today.





Citation for this? 

I didn't receive a copy of the rules...


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I don't care.
> 
> The memes will continue.



Fair point


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I'm ever so sorry shazzyg
> 
> I just got a sense of deja vu reading parts of your post.  Like I'd already seen them before



What's the ruling on what constitutes a rebuttal? Because this is clearly a rebuttal to the initial post Shazam made. Same with the other post.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 2, 2020)

*Rebuttal I*



Shazam said:


> Can someone tell @Ziggy Stardust to hurry up and make his second post, I can sense that I'm going to win that debate with him fairly easy. Hence his delay, arguments concerning replacement judges and meme/shit posting in what was supposed to be a formal debate thread







Shazam said:


> Portrayal: The Manga's Depiction of 蝦蟇仙人, Gama Sennin



*Link Removed*

Its funny Shazam, whilst having nothing to say on the match up itself you've somehow attempted to place Jiraiya above other characters as a means to scapegoat Itachi... despite lambasting ABC logic with a copy pasted manifesto from your faithful dupe.  Anyway... it's not like any of your hypes are worth a damn thing...

*Mis(L)reading*




			
				Shazam said:
			
		

> _*Hiruzen was much younger at this time - *Considered strongest of the Gokage*_



How you emphasised Hiruzen's _strongest _accolades reveals your game. We can safely say that Minato isn't declaring Jiraiya the _strongest_ person he's ever met with the above praise in mind.  What he actually means...

*Link Removed*​
Splendid. Not for possessing supreme power or killing proficiency...
but something else entirely :

*Link Removed*​
Minato thinks genuine talent is the determination to never give up.  Something Jiraiya embodies well, yet not evidence for superiority over the Third, Kumo's finest or the other Gokage.  Let's _not_ extrapolate what can't be extrapolated, because If I were to do that

*Link Removed*​

*The Legendary Hypocrite *

It must be noted that your model of wanking scaling involves taking old hype and applying them to characters neither conceived or included in the Manga at the time. All the while, remaining ignorant of using logic the Shazam/JuicyG Bible _calls _sin...



Shazam said:


> the ever-so bad ABC logic which is a fan-favorite here for the support of Itachi.





Shazam said:


> If character A beats character B, then it meant he had a higher power level, thus as long as B's power level is higher than C's, the logic follows as A>B>C.
> 
> This is not the case with Naruto







Shazam said:


> 8: Jiraiya was the only chance to defeat Orochimaru. Even though Old Hiruzen was still regarded as the strongest of the Five Kage. Telling us that Jiraiya is regarded as above the Five Kage.





So because the Perv can beat Oro, he must be > Hiruzen, who is > other Kage...  Jiraiya > Hiruzen > any Kage.  A>B>C.  So really what you meant to say Juicy, is that ABC's are no good unless wanking Jiraiya is the goal. For the hype itself:



Shazam said:


> Even though Old Hiruzen was still regarded as the strongest of the Five Kage



Per  and he adds the words "by reputation" almost as if to dress it with plausible deniability. From an in universe level,  you can say characters are bound to their own perspectives and are _potentially_ failable.  But even from an authorial intent ethos, the months and years means writer opinions can quite  over time, depicted by introducing new characters or fleshing out the . Perhaps we don't always have to head the old paradigm... I hope you'll agree, because If I we're to do that :

*Link Removed*​
You might argue the statement above comes before scans of Minato feats and battling the Kumo brothers, yet the same can be said for _every _hype regarding Hiruzen...  For example, I don't much like Hiruzen trading death for Orochimaru's arms compared to Onooki's Susanoo killing.  But if dated statements alone are the hill you want to die on, we can play that game.

*Link Removed*​
GG Kaguya, Haragomo, Hamura, Indra, Ashura and all those known to Black Zetsu. On the other hand, most of your Jiraiya hypes still intrinsically bind him as one of the Legendary three, much like Ebisu's maxim :

_... Only a Sannin can beat another Sannin ..._

The "only" part has been refuted, but other part of that statement remains intact - that a sannin can beat another sannin... implying any _one_ would have even chances against another.  The hype for Jiraiya is almost always based on this token. 


*Kisame's Reprisal*



Shazam said:


> Kisame; who is well aware of Itachi and his abilities in combat, he of course has seen what his sharingan can do and what abilities Itachi possesses
> Kisame does not say that Itachi CAN take on Jiraiya, what he says is, _"even if you might be able too"_...



Yes he _knows _what Itachi is capable of, but does he know what Jiraiya can do?  

*Link Removed*​
It always comes back down to being _one of the three_.  




Shazam said:


> We can confidently say that given this and what we can expect that Kisame know's about Itachi, he is unsure still that Itachi can even take Jiraiya on.


​
But that sentiment didn't last long, did it?

*Link Removed*​
Given what we know - how Itachi stomped another one of the three - is it really any wonder why Kisame questions Itachi's retreat after they finally see the babysitter in action? It's very simple.  Kisame wasn't sure before, but he certainly was after.




Shazam said:


> Furthermore is flat out states that he himself is not capable of fighting Jiraiya (remind ourselves this is the same Kisame who forces Gai to use 7th Gate and pressures Bee who isn't using his Full Bijuu state), the same Kisame who took down the 4 Tails Jin by himself without showing signs of injury


​Not _the same _kisame who does all those things.  There is 3 years between there and then.  Yes they are the _same person_, but do they have the same strength? Hard to say.  If you want to abscond feats completely and hold the old guard statements supreme, then fine.  MS Sasuke is the strongest person Bee ever fought. Kaguya's will thinks Itachi is invincible. 

Kisame's words don't help you.  Everything he questions gets refuted after they see Jiraiya fight. It gets even worse when you realise that Kisame warns against using the Mangekyou so many times a day. The fact of Orochimaru's humiliation just means his last interpretation is valid.

*Link Removed*​
Jiraiya doesn't suffer this fate because our thread allows him to start in SM, and that's the only reason.  We have to give the Toad prep in order to step up to Itachi.. which really tells you about the relationship between these characters. The ABC logic is fine because he never stops being compared as one of the Legendary three.

*Accepting Pain*

*Link Removed *​
The same notion goes for the last segment he's featured in and even _after_ the Pain fight. You made note of what Tobi said 

*Link Removed*​
The man known throughout the annals of Shinobi history as one of the Legendary Three lived up to his reputation... He lived up to it... Rather than _exceeding _it. The final reprisal of his power reminds us what we already know but doesn't allow him to break the Sannin Barrier.  The final chance to distinguish Jiraiya as _better_ would have been here.  Sorry about the blue balls. 




Shazam said:


> Pain states that now they can go to Konoha, speaking on the level of deterrence Jiraiya was to the Akatasuki


​Oh no...



*Link Removed*​
The true deterrent is Jiraiya's opponent here.  Pain obviously couldn't leave while Jiraiya was snooping around Amekagure. That doesn't make him Konoha's deterrent. It makes him the turd Pain had to flush before leaving the bathroom. 





Shazam said:


> We know that Fukasaku says only Jiraiya could have done as well as he did against Pain - This goes against the idea that Orochimaru, Tsunade are his equals, we are explicitly being told that Jiraiya is superior right here in this indirect manner


​
We don't have to include Orochimaru in that statement, an enemy for the last couple decades and also presumed dead when Jiraiya set out for Amekagure.  When Fukusaku makes a statement like that we don't have to extend it to all shinobi who ever lived in history good or evil.  

As for Tsunade... I think need to consult the Shazam/JuicyG manifesto 



Shazam's ABC's said:


> In Naruto, when Character A beats Character B, what does that mean No its not because of his Naruto series 'overall' power level, think again. Likely, it'd have something to do with an advantage he has over his opponent. Maybe it was elemental advantage, maybe it was chakra/stamina advantage, maybe his jutsu worked perfectly against the opponent, maybe he speed was far to superior, and maybe it was a combination of all. Point is battles in Naruto can be won or lost with just the smallest advantages.)



So according to my pamphlet, being able to do well against pain doesn't translate to _better than Tsunade._
Well done on scoring the own goal numbnuts.  And yes, of course Tsuande is less equipped to fight duels with Pain then jman is, being the trio's medic. 


*The Hunt for Itachi Uchiha*



Shazam said:


> Despite knowing this, Kakashi is confident that he does not need to ask for Jiraiya's help in taking on Itachi to capture him​



The weakest and most vague portion of your argument. As for the portrayal involved : two teams who never faced an Itachi willing to kill thought they could defeat him - the Konoha 8 man cell and Hebi.  Two teams... here's what Tobi says about one 

*Link Removed* 
​
Is what's true for one true for the other?  Kakashi, despite his smarts, still had gaps in his knowledge and never knew Itachi's true intentions when fighting him.  Ultimately, Kisame knows Itachi better and _does _think he could whip Jiraiya.  Kisame is also suspicious of Itachi's motives, unlike the others.  The only person knowing Itachi better being Obito : 

*Link Removed*​
 There are other reasons for excluding Jiraiya of course that go beyond power levels.

 *Link Removed*​
It says right here that Shinobi who've been on missions together is desirable.  Every person on that group had worked with _at least_ another.  Grandpa Jiraiya on the other hand is from a different generation.  He's not even fought with Naruto, unless maybe some thugs attacked them in their 2 & a half year jaunt. In other words Shazzy, no I don't think Kakashi excluding Jiraiya from the squad means the latter is better than Itachi.  The kind of non-sequitur made by someone digging for crumbs.




Shazam said:


> Jiraiya instead opts to go after the leader of the group that housed a character like Itachi, rather (we see this later on in the next chapter or two I believe)


​
Yes he went for the "leader" who he didn't intend to fight but merely gather information on, as his expertise for espionage would warrant. 

*Link Removed*

*The Expert on Parallels*




			
				shazam said:
			
		

> I don't want to spend much time on the topic of parallels because its mostly a fan-made idea that helps us depict which characters belong in which group. The problem is the story is an ever-moving timeline, and so there can be depicted multiple parallels in the manga (especially over time). What we have with Itachi and Jiraiya is the influences Jiraiya had on Naruto parallels to the influence Itachi had on Sasuke. Because of Itachi, Sasuke was driven to kill Danzo. Because of Jiraiya's death, Naruto was driven to take out Pain...


​As you said, this was a fan made parallel to implicate equality between the two. Problem is the manga exposition even as far as FKS arc (read MS Sasuke) still lets us know who his true mirror is as well as Kakashi's...

*Link Removed* 
​The man who left the village only to come back to destroy it..



Shazam said:


> the portrayal that some hold on Itachi in the DB claiming that Sasuke only surpasses Itachi with EMS is a bit of a hasty interpretation. The short passage depicts Itachi and Sasuke reuniting and coming back as brothers (hence the flashbacks during the Kabuto fight), it represents Itachi's will to open up to Sasuke and provide him the truth of what he's been hiding, and standing behind Sasuke no matter what he decided to do there on out.





A _hasty_ interpretation?  This is what the databook says : 

_Implanting Itachi’s Mangekyo Sharingan, it gave him an eternal light that was turned and surpassed his older brother’s ninjutsu and doujutsu._

_- Databook IV, page 49_​
Nothing in regards to Itachi's _will_ to open up and provide Sasuke with the truth or standing by his brothers side...  Just that Sasuke straight up surpassed his brothers powers with the EMS. 



I think that's enough for now.  There's honestly so much shit here Juicy.  Logical errors, straight up false information and reaching interpretations.  More oversights than I even have time to respond to, so I focussed on the most important parts.  Worst of all, you tried to tar the opposition for using ABC logic despite it permeating _every_ argument you made.  It's clear that you wanted ABC logic to work for your personal proposals while denying it for Orochimaru.  Not being smart enough to see the hypocrisy.  The culmination of this resulted in a most flaccid conclusion :



Shazam said:


> Pain > Jiraiya
> Pain > Itachi
> 
> Jiraiya = Living Itachi (they go even more times than not)
> ...



In other words :

​

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 2, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> *Rebuttal I*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Expect my first rebuttal Thursday.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jun 3, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Expect my first rebuttal Thursday.



No worries. 

I mean you were kicking a screaming when I didn't give you a next day reply, but no worries...


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## t0xeus (Jun 3, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> @t0xeus
> 
> The judging criteria is a little daunting.
> 
> I think you need to streamline it to judges writing a few bullet points of good and bad arguments made for both sides as it pertains to how each combatant beats the other, with a verdict at the end. You might scare a few people off with a daunting grading system and categories.


It's just a template, it shouldn't really be taken as some strict ruling on what they have to cover in their judgement.
It's just something they should use for inspiration. I am fine with them taking a different approach as long as they put some thought into it.



Ziggy Stardust said:


> Genuine question : Is there a deadline for posting?


No, it's up to you two as long as we are talking few days between each post.
If you go missing for a week or longer then that'd be a problem lol.


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## Soul (Jun 3, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It's just a template, it shouldn't really be taken as some strict ruling on what they have to cover in their judgement.
> It's just something they should use for inspiration. I am fine with them taking a different approach as long as they put some thought into it.



Then I assume my normal approach to judging will do. Cool.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 3, 2020)

Could somebody tag me when it's time to vote? Otherwise I'll probably forget.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mawt (Jun 5, 2020)

Ziggy failed to restrain himself and got banned again. Shazam wins by default.

Low key sorta disrespectful though. He handed Shazam a false win.


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## t0xeus (Jun 5, 2020)

Maybe we do then just one round of rebuttals and then judging so at least we get some form of conclusion?


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## Mawt (Jun 5, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Maybe we do then just one round of rebuttals and then judging so at least we get some form of conclusion?


Suppose that could work. @Shazam can make his last rebuttal, and the judging process begins. I guess Ziggy can view it as a guest and see how he does


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## Shazam (Jun 5, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Suppose that could work. @Shazam can make his last rebuttal, and the judging process begins. I guess Ziggy can view it as a guest and see how he does



Taking extra time because of work


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## Mawt (Jun 5, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Taking extra time because of work


No problem. I'm ready to vote at any time.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 5, 2020)

Lol Ziggy stomped in that last rebut.

GG

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sufex (Jun 6, 2020)

Ziggy really got banned before he finished


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## Troyse22 (Jun 6, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Ziggy really got banned before he finished



Just more proof that the biased mods are Sannin wankers. They saw him slap the shit out of Shazam in that rebut and they were like "SHUT IT DOWN NOW!!!"


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jun 6, 2020)

Ziggy was being ziggy so its not a surprise, really, lol. Guy is the most unapolagetic asshole on the boards and he knows it.

The actual topics of his rebuttal are solid but it's slathered with sarcasm, mocking, and a general disregard for debate etiquette. He's a damn good troll.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 7, 2020)

@Shazam Will you be posting your Rebuttal 1?


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## jesusus (Jun 7, 2020)

Shazam loses by default then?


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## Mawt (Jun 7, 2020)

@Shazam Don't mean to pressure you, but are you close to posting your rebuttal? I don't mean to keep @Orochimaru op waiting on his match with me.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 8, 2020)

@Shazam hurry up, it’s not like the guy you were debating with is banned or anything, don’t keep your opponent waiting!


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## ShadowSoul (Jun 8, 2020)

.... & when the world needed him most, he vanished.


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## Soul (Jun 10, 2020)

Been over two weeks since the OP was posted. A regular Colosseum match with full strategies and rebuttals +5-25 votes took _three days_.

What's taking so long?


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 10, 2020)

Soul said:


> Been over two weeks since the OP was posted. A regular Colosseum match with full strategies and rebuttals +5-25 votes took _three days_.
> 
> What's taking so long?


If @Shazam doesn't post within a week, I will declare Ziggy the winner, based on feats.


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## Soul (Jun 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> If @Shazam doesn't post within a week, I will declare Ziggy the winner, based on feats.



Yeah, some time limit should be enforced. I don't see how we could make  work consistently enough to make a scheduled tournament, 4 matches every 3 days, yet now no one can post twice a week.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> If @Shazam doesn't post within a week, I will declare Ziggy the winner, based on feats.


technically it's been a week since ziggy's rebuttal... and shazam has been active and posting/making threads anyway


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## Kisame (Jun 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> If @Shazam doesn't post within a week, I will declare Ziggy the winner, based on feats.


But Ziggy is banned, isn't that autoforefeit?


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## Soul (Jun 11, 2020)

Shark said:


> But Ziggy is banned, isn't that autoforefeit?



It would if his side of the argument wasn't ready. He posted more than once in rebuttal form, while his opponent hasn't.


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## t0xeus (Jun 11, 2020)

Yeah I guess @Shazam has time until the end of the week (Sunday) to post his rebuttal. After that I'll ask the judges to give us their judgement based on the opening posts only.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 11, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Yeah I guess @Shazam has time until the end of the week (Sunday) to post his rebuttal. After that I'll ask the judges to give us their judgement based on the opening posts only.


Would be great if @Shazam could post his rebuttal


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## Mawt (Jun 12, 2020)

If @Shazam doesn't make his rebuttal post by tomorrow, I'll be withdrawing from my judging position.


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Mawt said:


> If @Shazam doesn't make his rebuttal post by tomorrow, I'll be withdrawing from my judging position.


Do you not want to wait until Sunday? Then I'd ask the judges to give their verdict.


t0xeus said:


> Yeah I guess @Shazam has time until the end of the week (Sunday) to post his rebuttal. After that I'll ask the judges to give us their judgement based on the opening posts only.


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## Mawt (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Do you not want to wait until Sunday? Then I'd ask the judges to give their verdict.


Ah, I didn't see that. Sure, I'll wait until Sunday.


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## PocketGod (Jun 12, 2020)

It's become clear, Shazman has no rebuttal and thus used his influence with the sannin band mods to get Ziggy banned in hopes of winning that way.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 12, 2020)

Are we certain he didn't put @t0xeus on ignore again


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## jesusus (Jun 12, 2020)

Shazam has abused his power as Kellogg's head engineer and Sannin Board of Directors chairman to get Ziggy banned. 

Justice for Ziggy! 

[HASHTAG]#FreeZiggy[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#NotMyKelloggs[/HASHTAG] [HASHTAG]#NotMyBoardofDirectors[/HASHTAG]


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## Kisame (Jun 12, 2020)

Never thought someone _not_ posting would have so many people on edge, people really out here wishing Shazam would post just cause they want to see him lose. I bet ya'll immediately check the thread every time there's a new reply hoping it's Shazam just to find out it's others like you complaining about him not posting.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2020)

I’m not a judge or anything,




but I just wanted to come in here to thank @Shazam for working hard to create these wonderful Kellogg’s I’m enjoying tonight I’m in such good mood he’s winner in my book


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## Quipchaque (Jun 13, 2020)

Shark said:


> Never thought someone _not_ posting would have so many people on edge, people really out here wishing Shazam would post just cause they want to see him lose.* I bet ya'll immediately check the thread every time there's a new reply hoping it's Shazam just to find out it's others like you complaining about him not posting. *



Well shit you got me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mawt (Jun 14, 2020)

The deadline has been reached. Begin the voting process. 

EDIT: Or do we wait a day?


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## t0xeus (Jun 14, 2020)

I guess we can start.

So could the judges give us their verdict please?  Just based on the two opening posts, since Shazam didn't post his rebuttal.

@Shark
@Veracity
@Mawt
@Atlantic Storm
@Soul
@FlamingRain


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 14, 2020)

vote incoming tomorrow (probably)


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## Soul (Jun 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I guess we can start.
> 
> So could the judges give us their verdict please?  Just based on the two opening posts, since Shazam didn't post his rebuttal.
> 
> ...



Why would we judge if neither contestant is interested? Seems like a waste of time.
I'd rather close this one and judge people that actually want to play.


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## t0xeus (Jun 14, 2020)

Soul said:


> Why would we judge if neither contestant is interested? Seems like a waste of time.
> I'd rather close this one and judge people that actually want to play.


Yeah, you don't have to if you don't want to. 

Just thought it'd be nice if the people that were reading this got to see a conclusion of it.


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## Soul (Jun 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Yeah, you don't have to if you don't want to.
> 
> Just thought it'd be nice if the people that were reading this got to see a conclusion of it.



Just wondering if it actually matters. I don't mind doing it, just try to find people that actually want to do this.


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## t0xeus (Jun 14, 2020)

Soul said:


> Just wondering if it actually matters. I don't mind doing it, just try to find people that actually want to do this.


Well one of them got banned so it's not really like they bailed due to lost of interest.


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## Mawt (Jun 14, 2020)

Tbh, I'm only going to vote if @Shazam confirms ITT that he wants a vote. 

I don't feel like wasting my time on a stillborn debate where one contestant is banned and the other doesn't seem to care at all.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 14, 2020)

@Ziggy Stardust's opening is clearly better than @Shazam's, just going off a preliminary look.

Now that I think about it, even if Shazam were to post, Ziggy would likely still have the upper hand. Why? Ziggy's opening is better than Shazam's, and he has a strong rebuttal. It's already 2-0 and Shazam merely matching that rebuttal in quality would have put it at 2-1. Without his extra posts to detail feats (which is what he planned to do), it was clear Shazam was on the losing side.

Thus he gave up despite many people asking him whether he would continue. Understandably, he had work-related duties in the real world, but Shazam also had spent a good chunk of time outside this debate on NF. Would have been good to provide some closure but he believed he couldn't win without the extra posts where he was going to detail more about feats, which is, of itself, understandable too -- after all, he didn't sign up for a 2-post debate. However, with this much time, it would have been possible to write an exceptional rebuttal, knocking Ziggy's opening down by a peg, putting it at 2-2 (or possibly 2-3), closing the gap. The only issue with that is it's extremely difficult to knock down manga facts; the alternative is scaling Jiraiya higher but that is difficult to do (for obvious reasons).

In the end, either no one won the debate yet (because the debate was abruptly put on hold by Ziggy's ban) and we could wait until Ziggy is unbanned, or Ziggy won this (in consideration of the time limit).


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## Kisame (Jun 14, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @Ziggy Stardust's opening is clearly better than @Shazam's, just going off a preliminary look.
> 
> Now that I think about it, even if Shazam were to post, Ziggy would likely still have the upper hand. Why? Ziggy's opening is better than Shazam's, and he has a strong rebuttal. It's already 2-0 and Shazam merely matching that rebuttal in quality would have put it at 2-1. Without his extra posts to detail feats (which is what he planned to do), it was clear Shazam was on the losing side.
> 
> ...


Technically Shazam doesn't have to post anything since his opponent is banned, and some would say the debate was over the moment Ziggy was banned anyway. Other than that there's also the fact that in his introduction Shazam implies that he's just introducing us into who Jiraiya is before the "flow of arguments" commences.


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## Sufex (Jun 14, 2020)

IMO i think it should be a default win to shazzy or just a null match tbh just cus he didn't get banned. Unfortunate as ziggy was clearly destroying him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG String (Jun 14, 2020)

Shark said:


> Technically Shazam doesn't have to post anything since his opponent is banned, and some would say the debate was over the moment Ziggy was banned anyway. Other than that there's also the fact that in his introduction Shazam implies that he's just introducing us into who Jiraiya is before the "flow of arguments" commences.



And to think you _were _chosen for impartiality.

After berating half of NBD for wanting to see Shazam lose, here you are pleading for his victory by "technicality". Appealing to the motives of a man obtuse enough to block t0exus and wonder why the thread disappeared, audacious enough to declare himself the winner after I didn't give him a next day reply and yet spinless enough to give no closure on the delay, despite acknowledging the ban and still promising a post.

He's ducking.  That's all. I have no idea why you'd pretend it anything else.  The debate was over... you're right.  It was over the moment he decided to challenge ol Ziggy.... the victor, really, was never in question and the rest is theatre.  The _ban_ is merely an inconvenience to that theatre.  They can bar my account for a hundred years, and I'd still finish this debate from alternatives.

So there it is.  If Shazam wants to post, I will post back.  If he doesn't, that's what traditional school of thought would call _quitting.  
_
And some traditions should be cherished forever.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 14, 2020)

JuicyG String said:


> And to think you _were _chosen for impartiality.
> 
> After berating half of NBD for wanting to see Shazam lose, here you are pleading for his victory by "technicality". Appealing to the motives of a man obtuse enough to block t0exus and wonder why the thread disappeared, audacious enough to declare himself the winner after I didn't give him a next day reply and yet spinless enough to give no closure on the delay, despite acknowledging the ban and still promising a post.
> 
> ...


I agree with the gist of this. Do you think you would be willing to let @t0xeus post on your behalf, i.e., write your post and let him copy and paste it for you? If so, how would you go about doing that?


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## JuicyG String (Jun 14, 2020)

I can post from an alt easy enough.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 14, 2020)

JuicyG String said:


> I can post from an alt easy enough.


In that case, it appears that Ziggy does not want to quit.

@Shazam, will you post your first rebuttal now?


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## jesusus (Jun 14, 2020)

Shazam has lost by default.


Mad Scientist said:


> In that case, it appears that Ziggy does not want to quit.
> 
> @Shazam, will you post your first rebuttal now?


JuicyG's in trouble now that his ban Ziggy plan has backfired


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## Sufex (Jun 14, 2020)

Holy shit, the plot twist. Ziggy comes back from the dead to finish what he started


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## blk (Jun 14, 2020)

Maybe while making the rebuttal @Shazam realized that there is no path to victory for Jman, so he threw the towel


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## ShadowSoul (Jun 14, 2020)

Omg this is getting spicy lmaooooo. ... fight on !!!


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## jesusus (Jun 14, 2020)

ShacyG let me finish your rebuttal as a fellow Base Jiraiya comrade.


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## jesusus (Jun 14, 2020)

Nvm bro you're doomed. Forgot this is SM Jiraiya


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## JuicyG String (Jun 14, 2020)

Indeed. Not even the deepest worship of Numagoth can save him.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 14, 2020)

JuicyG String said:


> And to think you _were _chosen for impartiality.
> 
> After berating half of NBD for wanting to see Shazam lose, here you are pleading for his victory by "technicality". Appealing to the motives of a man obtuse enough to block t0exus and wonder why the thread disappeared, audacious enough to declare himself the winner after I didn't give him a next day reply and yet spinless enough to give no closure on the delay, despite acknowledging the ban and still promising a post.
> 
> ...



You lost the right to partake in the debate (or any other discussions here) when you got banned.


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## Kisame (Jun 14, 2020)

JuicyG String said:


> And to think you _were _chosen for impartiality.
> 
> After berating half of NBD for wanting to see Shazam lose, here you are pleading for his victory by "technicality".


I'm not berating them for wanting to see him lose, that's their inclination and they're free to have it. I'm berating them for pretending that there are no other conclusions to a debate where one person got banned when in reality they should admit they really want to see him badly lose. They even go out of their way to demand judges voting when neither contestant has fulfilled their criteria of posts nor agreed to change terms of voting.

Plenty of other posters pointed out the that there were other conclusions to be made, _I_ even acknowledged judging only the OPs as one possible conclusion - but I am sure people will be triggered either way.

Also, Ziggy, are you implying that you are doubting my impartiality in Itachi vs Jiraiya? Because if so I wouldn't think it's fair for you to have a judge you feel might be not be fair towards you, and I can withdraw my name from the judges in that case.


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## jesusus (Jun 14, 2020)

A debate is a debate. Bans are irrelevant here and do not warrant a loss.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 14, 2020)

jesusus said:


> A debate is a debate. Bans are irrelevant here and do not warrant a loss.



No.

A ban means you lose the privilege to post.



Shark said:


> I'm not berating them for wanting to see him lose, that's their inclination and they're free to have it. I'm berating them for pretending that there are no other conclusions to the debate where one person got banned when in reality they should admit they really want to see him badly lose. They even go out of their way to demand judges voting when neither contestant has fulfilled their criteria of posts nor agreed to change terms of voting.
> 
> Plenty of other posters pointed out the that there were other conclusions to be made, I even acknowledged judging only the OPs as one conclusion - but I am sure people will be triggered either way.
> 
> Also, Ziggy, are you implying that you are doubting my impartiality in Itachi vs Jiraiya? Because if so I wouldn't think it's fair for you to have a judge you feel would be not be fair towards you, and I can withdraw my name from the judges in that case.



Your level of impartiality is fine. 

Don't concern yourself with the opinion of bums.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 14, 2020)

I wanna see Itachi win. But ban = no post. I'm pretty sure @t0xeus shouldn't post on behalf of him because that's circumventing a ban and is a no go? Why even ban when people can still participate in tourneys? IMO ban = you lose the privilege of posting and as punishment you lose stuff.

However in defense of Ziggy you can even argue Shazam didn't post for 1.5 weeks when it was his turn... if that's the case, and Ziggy was only banned for a day, then we'd still be waiting on his post and it'd be Ziggy's win, no?


Either way, there seems to be valid reason for both side to claim victory by technicality. However, I don't think either side would want a win with an asterisk next to their win. I think that's why I and many others want to see at least the rebuttal put in and votes to see the winner.


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## Ren. (Jun 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> *Challenger Arena Battle (Third Battle)*
> 
> *@Shazam  vs @Ziggy Stardust *​
> *
> ...


Wank vs Wank, I see you have chosen death.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 14, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> I wanna see Itachi win. But ban = no post. I'm pretty sure @t0xeus shouldn't post on behalf of him because that's circumventing a ban and is a no go? Why even ban when people can still participate in tourneys? IMO ban = you lose the privilege of posting and as punishment you lose stuff.
> 
> However in defense of Ziggy you can even argue Shazam didn't post for 1.5 weeks when it was his turn... if that's the case, and Ziggy was only banned for a day, then we'd still be waiting on his post and it'd be Ziggy's win, no?
> 
> ...


I disagree with ban = auto forfeit. Anyone can be banned and the reason can be unwarranted and unrelated to the NBD. It doesn't mean the banned member wants to discontinue the debate. Evidently, it is Ziggy who wants the debate to continue but Shazam who has had enough time and has not yet even posted his first rebuttal. Moreover, no ruling was specified that says in the case of someone being banned the match immediately ends.

As there was no initial time limit specified, and in light of Ziggy's return, I say that the match should continue (as it would if Ziggy was banned for only a day).

Ziggy wants to continue. The question is if Shazam will rise to the challenge, no strings attached.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 14, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> I disagree with ban = auto forfeit. Anyone can be banned and the reason can be unwarranted and unrelated to the NBD. It doesn't mean the banned member wants to discontinue the debate. Evidently, it is Ziggy who wants the debate to continue but Shazam who has had enough time and has not yet even posted his first rebuttal. Moreover, no ruling was specified that says in the case of someone being banned the match immediately ends.
> 
> As there was no initial time limit specified, and in light of Ziggy's return, I say that the match should continue (as it would if Ziggy was banned for only a day).
> 
> Ziggy wants to continue. The question is if Shazam will rise to the challenge, no strings attached.


Yeah, I didn't say I think ban = forfeit, but I can see why other people would think so. In either case, I'm just saying it's iffy and might be against the rules for t0xeus to post a rebuttal on behalf. Or for him to use an alt to post. Because it is circumventing a ban.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 14, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Yeah, I didn't say I think ban = forfeit, but I can see why other people would think so. In either case, I'm just saying it's iffy and might be against the rules for t0xeus to post a rebuttal on behalf. Or for him to use an alt to post. Because it is circumventing a ban.


Well, fair enough for t0x not posting on his behalf as that would circumvent Ziggy's (main account) ability to post, but I still think the debate should continue because at this rate Ziggy is not going to give in even if it means using dupes. What the mods decide to do with his dupe's post or the dupe itself is up to them.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 14, 2020)

I don’t understand all of this. Just keep it on hold, or neither side wins the debate lol.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 14, 2020)

@JuicyG String How long is your ban btw?


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## Mawt (Jun 14, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @JuicyG String How long is your ban btw?


It's a perma ban, according to Santi (I think)


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## JuicyG String (Jun 14, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> @JuicyG String How long is your ban btw?



None of you wants to wait for four months.  Which is now privy to resetting, in the event that I post the rest of the debate from an alt.  I did ask Santi this.  I'm aware of the consequence and I will post the rest of the debate from an alt even if it means a perma. 

I've posted my rebuttal. 

Shazam is due for his. I will find away to reply, and obviously you won't be waiting more than a week from me.  

If Shazam doesn't want to reply, that's his forfeit.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Ayala (Jun 14, 2020)

With Ziggy having posted his 2 pieces already while Shazam has gone past the timeline, i believe the judging should start and finish with what there is, Ziggy being banned doesn't mean he loses the debate automatically. 

Plus, Ziggy sacrificed his whole career and is risking a perma just to get his word on this, at least respect his last wish lol


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## Sufex (Jun 14, 2020)

Hasn't the deadline already gone? So you might as well start voting


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## Soul (Jun 15, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> A ban means you lose the privilege to post.



Ziggy posted enough to be evaluated. Still don't understand why he would be disqualified since there isn't a rule for it. He has actually posted more than Shazam and is banned.
I'll judge this tomorrow by what we have.


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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

IMO Shazam has made it clear he is no longer interested in the debate when he stopped updating us on his rebuttal progress etc.

I think the best course of action is to get judges to give us their verdict based on the OPs or to leave this unsolved (this is the worse option IMO).

Also considering that Shazam wanted an all-mods judging desk, I think that assuming he is going to agree to Ziggy posting through dupes is hard optimistic lol.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jun 15, 2020)

Shazam debated himself in to a corner when he made one of the 4 posts he gets(although it seems he's only going to use 1) about nothing but Jiraiya's portrayal/how strong characters in the series consider him to be/how much they respect him and nothing about actually fighting Itachi(which while sure, portrayal can matter in debates, feats and fight discussions are always going to reign supreme, I'd say that goes for pretty much any judge you'd find on here).

Feel like Shazam probably realized this and that's why he's bowed out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Jun 15, 2020)

Literally zero reasons to have an auto win for Shazam, there is no rule for it and Ziggy has made both an OP and a rebuttal.

Sure the debate initially was supposed to have another rebuttal on top of the first, but just one is enough to have a legitimate ending.

Most debates on T0xeus's Arena only have an OP and a rebuttal anyway.

And regardless, i doubt Shazam would have been able to complete more rebuttals when he can't even provide a single one 

Which is funny considering that after starting this debate he the audacity of making a thread about formal debates (as if he became an expert suddenly), challenging people left and right and calling out those that wouldn't do them. 
Lol.


Also it's curious how only Sannin stans are asking for an auto win for Shazam


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## jesusus (Jun 15, 2020)

JacyG probably has all the judges on block by now


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## Yumi Zoro (Jun 15, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> *Rebuttal I*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am surprised @Shazam, IS not answering @Ziggy Stardust , although there are so many flaw in the later's argument.


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## Shazam (Jun 15, 2020)

redboy776 said:


> I am surprised @Shazam, IS not answering @Ziggy Stardust , although there are so many flaw in the later's argument.



I lost interest with my opponent being banned. I dont even care now. The whole point was for me to tackle his logic personally. Now that chance is gone.


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## Sufex (Jun 15, 2020)

Welp thats a wrap @t0xeus  can you finish this then.


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## NumaGoth (Jun 15, 2020)

Shazam said:


> I lost interest with my opponent being banned. I dont even care now. The whole point was for me to tackle his logic personally. *Now that chance is gone*.



Wrong you are.

The chance is here and now.

If you wish to _personally _tackle my logic then make your reply and you will get one in return. Or you can concede, and be truthful about it.  For once in your miserable life you can be honest with the members here Juicy, having lied to them for the last 3 years.

You didn't lose interest with the ban, you lost interest because you know you can not win.


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## Shazam (Jun 15, 2020)

NumaGoth said:


> Wrong you are.
> 
> The chance is here and now.
> 
> ...



So I take it this is a dupe? 

Then stick around and not get banned from that account too and I will gladly make my first rebuttal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NumaGoth (Jun 15, 2020)

We've been waiting for over a week now boy 

post your stuff or bow out graciously admitting defeat.  There are no excuses this time.


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## Hardcore (Jun 16, 2020)

go with "BaseYomiNuma" as your next dupe

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Illusory (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> You lost the right to partake in the debate (or any other discussions here) when you got banned.



"The right" lol.


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## Soul (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> You lost the right to partake in the debate (or any other discussions here) when you got banned.



He already posted, though.
Any further post counting or not depends on the ruling of whoever is organizing, but even if we are not to evaluate he already posted enough to go by.


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## Shazam (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> He already posted, though.
> Any further post counting or not depends on the ruling of whoever is organizing, but even if we are not to evaluate he already posted enough to go by.



I'm in the midst of finishing my rebuttal now. But the rules were that we each get 2 rebuttals. And a conclusion post. If you guys want to press the issue with him being banned wanting me to still post then I'm still posting all of the PLANNED posts whether he can reply back or not. That's not my problem or issue.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> He already posted, though.
> Any further post counting or not depends on the ruling of whoever is organizing, but even if we are not to evaluate he already posted enough to go by.



He is unable to post enough to meet the *criteria of the debate*. That should be counted as losing or at worst a null debate.

 - He's banned.

 - He can't fulfill the debate parameters

How it is anybody thinks this should continue is absurd.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Soul (Jun 16, 2020)

Shazam said:


> I'm in the midst of finishing my rebuttal now. But the rules were that we each get 2 rebuttals. And a conclusion post. If you guys want to press the issue with him being banned wanting me to still post then I'm still posting all of the PLANNED posts whether he can reply back or not. That's not my problem or issue.



That is correct. Your problem/issue is posting weeks late.



ShinAkuma said:


> He is unable to post enough to meet the *criteria of the debate*. That should be counted as losing or at worst a null debate.
> 
> - He's banned.
> 
> ...



I am saying I have enough to go by to judge. Shazam has the upper hand as he can post conclusions while his opponent cannot.
It's all up to the person that organized this, not to the judges.


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## Shazam (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> That is correct. Your problem/issue is posting weeks late.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which is why I was willing to drop this in the event my opponent can't defend himself. So even if I "win" under these circumstances, it will be downplayed because of his ban.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> I am saying I have enough to go by to judge. Shazam has the upper hand as he can post conclusions while his opponent cannot.
> It's all up to the person that organized this, not to the judges.



I would contend that can't be true. No different than taking the time at 50 meters and saying it's enough to determine all 100 meters in a 100 meter race.

Doesn't make any sense.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I would contend that can't be true. No different than taking the time at 50 meters and saying it's enough to determine all 100 meters in a 100 meter race.
> 
> Doesn't make any sense.



It doesn't in the race context, but there have been sport seasons that weren't finished because of unforeseen circumstances. Not all games were played, yet the playoffs ran just fine. Makes perfect sense to me.



Shazam said:


> Which is why I was willing to drop this in the event my opponent can't defend himself. So even if I "win" under these circumstances, it will be downplayed because of his ban.



Better than losing, that's for sure.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> It doesn't in the race context, but there have been sport seasons that weren't finished because of unforeseen circumstances. Not all games were played, yet the playoffs ran just fine. Makes perfect sense to me.



Sure.

How many teams ejected from the league were allowed to finish the playoffs post ejection?


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sure.
> 
> How many teams ejected from the league were allowed to finish the playoffs post ejection?


This isn't anything NF-official though. It's hosted by me.

Better comparison IMO would be more of an owner of the stadium the league is being played in rejecting one of the players.

So the league itself doesn't really have the problem with any of the players and wants them to participate if possible.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> This isn't anything NF-official though. It's hosted by me.



On narutoforums....

However you are hosting it so you can do whatever with whatever is posted here. I'm just pointing out how absurd it is.

Also that was @Soul  shitty analogy, not mine. I just used his logic to debunk it.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinWankuma said:


> I am banned.



Then get the fuck out lol



> I am capable of fulfilling the debate parameters.



Not really and not "legally".



> Good thing your opinion on the matter is utterly irrelevant.



I'm simply correct. I'm not concerned with the relevancy to one such as yourself.



> Debating is not a race Shin.



Probably the only thing you don't consider a....race.


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

Anyways as long as both participants want to continue, I'm willing to let them have the debate.

Instead of posting through dupes though, Ziggy, you should PM me your rebuttal instead and I'll post it for you, so mods don't shut this thread down.


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## Soul (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Also that was @Soul  shitty analogy, not mine. I just used his logic to debunk it.



Because you want to finds holes in it. Your perspective is looking for ways for it to be wrong.
My example is easy to understand, but you are looking to "beat me" to prove how right you are.

I am disagreeing with your conclusion based on my experience with these kind of things, but your point of view also makes sense. It's up to the organizer to decide what to do.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinWankuma said:


> Nope.



I guess we will see.



> Yes really and yes legally.



 I don't think you know what legally means.



> then get the fuck out lol.



I'm not the one who lost their privilege to post here.



> It is one of many things I don't consider a... race.  Which includes all things that are not... races.


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## ShinWankuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Then I'll have my final question to the last of Shazzam's defenders.

@ShinAkuma In the event that Shazam couldn't post a conclusion post and everyone was willing to judge based on his previous three posts, would you also be arguing so hard for him to lose the match automatically ?

Be honest now....


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> Because you want to finds holes in it. Your perspective is looking for ways for it to be wrong.



I did find holes in it.

That's the point.



> My example is easy to understand, but you are looking to "beat me" to prove how right you are.



I'm pointing out the absurdity.



> I am disagreeing with your conclusion based on my experience with these kind of things, but your point of view also makes sense. It's up to the organizer to decide what to do.



Fair enough.


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## Soul (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I did find holes in it.
> 
> That's the point.



Which proves you are missing the actual point.



> I'm pointing out the absurdity.



It's not absurd at all. If this were an official match where there are strict rules about it, then yeah, but you just saw the ruling.



t0xeus said:


> Anyways as long as both participants want to continue, I'm willing to let them have the debate.
> 
> Instead of posting through dupes though, Ziggy, you should PM me your rebuttal instead and I'll post it for you, so mods don't shut this thread down.



It's pretty straightforward.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinWankuma said:


> Then I'll have my final question to the last of Shazzam's defenders.
> 
> @ShinAkuma In the event that Shazam couldn't post a conclusion post and everyone was willing to judge based on his previous three posts, would you also be arguing so hard for him to lose the match automatically ?
> 
> Be honest now....



Yes.

I don't care who wins. There is parameters set out before the debate. They must be met for the debate to be fulfilled.

If @Shazam got banned and you didn't I would have the exact same argument....


.....except maybe the race troll.....


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> Which proves you are missing the actual point.



No.



> It's not absurd at all. If this were an official match where there are strict rules about it, then yeah, but you just saw the ruling.



Of course it's absurd.

If the parameters meant nothing *they wouldn't have been set to begin with*.

The fact that there is judging and parameters indicates this is far more "official" than you would like to admit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinWankuma said:


> Then I'll have my final question to the last of Shazzam's defenders.
> 
> @ShinAkuma In the event that Shazam couldn't post a conclusion post and everyone was willing to judge based on his previous three posts, would you also be arguing so hard for him to lose the match automatically ?
> 
> Be honest now....


Why is this so hard to get?
You tecnically lost your possibility to respond while Shazam didn't, so Shazam auto won
If Shazam can't post the conclusion cause he was banned, like you're supposing above, then surely you auto win (assuming you weren't also banned tho), without the need for judging on his previous posts

Cause whoever loses the possibility to continue the debate has lost, since he'll not be able to meet the criteria agreed between the two posters

Now Idk how "legal" it is for you to continue posting, but if you are "legally" allowed to do it thanks to private messages then on Shazam's agreement everything's fine

But surely you and Shazam can also reach a different agreement as: "lets ask the judges to only evaluate opening/rebuttals etc.."
And thing is, this is something you both must agree on, not the judges, who decided and agreed on the judging criteria have been the both of you, the judges are people who have been asked to meet those criteria, as long as you both are cool in changing them the judges can go for it, but the judges can't change the debate's criteria (well unless both of you are cool with giving the judges the power to change them as they see fit I guess...)



t0xeus said:


> This isn't anything NF-official though. It's hosted by me.
> 
> Better comparison IMO would be more of an owner of the stadium the league is being played in rejecting one of the players.
> 
> So the league itself doesn't really have the problem with any of the players and wants them to participate if possible.


You're hosting it on the forum, it's like you have your friend Mike who has been arrested in your country but since you're hosting a party in your home then it's fair game, just let them out of jail for the party then back in he goes


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

trocollo said:


> You're hosting it on the forum, it's like you have your friend Mike who has been arrested in your country but since you're hosting a party in your home then it's fair game, just let them out of jail for the party then back in he goes


So he can send me a letter from the jail (that is the email with the rebuttal) and I will post it here. All fair play.


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## trocollo (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> So he can send me a letter from the jail (that is the email with the rebuttal) and I will post it here. All fair play.


Yep as I said Idk if "sending the letter" is legal or not, if it is, it's all cool (as long as Shazam is also cool in debating like this, and seems like he is)


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Illusory said:


> "The right" lol.



Imagine using ''gay'' as an insult.


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## Soul (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have played in this official matches for a while and it has worked itself out many times like it will be here. Still not sure what you don't understand, but this is clearly a waste of time.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Imagine using ''gay'' as an insult.



I know right? That's so 2000s.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Soul said:


> I have played in this official matches for a while and it has worked itself out many times like it will be here. Still not sure what you don't understand, but this is clearly a waste of time.



It's not me who _doesn't understand_.

Your reasoning and logic has been debuked. If you want to play the "I've done this before" card you can, but don't pretend it has anything to do with my "understanding" of the situation.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Based Karen said:


> Shinakuma : Sannin Wanker who thinks forum debates are just like 100-meter sprints (explaining the quality of his posts)
> Zero : Sannin Wanker who's user name reflects his IQ score
> Shark :  Partial Sannin Wanker with a vested interest in protecting Shazam, a pathological liar and hypocrite


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## Illusory (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Imagine using ''gay'' as an insult.



Who said it was an insult? That must just be your own prejudices that you’re projecting.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Who said it was an insult? That must just be your own prejudices that you’re projecting.



It's pretty clear you were using it as an insult. Your gaslighting attempt is pathetic.


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## Illusory (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's pretty clear you were using it as an insult. Your gaslighting attempt is pathetic.



It’s clear that you _inferred_ the image to be an insult because of your repressed homophobia that you feel the need to project whenever possible so that you can whine and virtue signal to assuage your internalized guilt regarding your own very real, very pathetic prejudices.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 17, 2020)

Illusory said:


> It’s clear that you _inferred_ the image to be an insult because of your repressed homophobia that you feel the need to project whenever possible so that you can whine and virtue signal to assuage your internalized guilt regarding your own very real, very pathetic prejudices.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Illusory said:


> It’s clear that you _inferred_ the image to be an insult because of your repressed homophobia that you feel the need to project whenever possible so that you can whine and virtue signal to assuage your internalized guilt regarding your own very real, very pathetic prejudices.



Using ''I know you are but what am I?'' as a comeback...well, we aren't in kindergarten any more. In case you missed that part.


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## Illusory (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Using ''I know you are but what am I?'' as a comeback...well, we aren't in kindergarten any more. In case you missed that part.



“We’re not in kindergarten any more” is something (homophobic) first-graders say.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Using ''I know you are but what am I?'' as a comeback...well, we aren't in kindergarten any more. In case you missed that part.




How do you know *he isn't in kindergarten*?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> How do you know *he isn't in kindergarten*?






Illusory said:


> “We’re not in kindergarten any more” is something (homophobic) first-graders say.



Fine. Are you saying you _are_ in kindergarten?


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## Illusory (Jun 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fine. Are you saying you _are_ in kindergarten?



This is the current year. You should learn how to have conversations where you aren’t overly concerned with people’s sexuality, race, *or* age.


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## t0xeus (Jun 18, 2020)

@Shazam 
Are you going to post the rebuttal? If so, around when can we expect it?


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## jesusus (Jun 19, 2020)

Suzy post your rebuttal so you can lose already.


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## Sufex (Jun 19, 2020)

T0x is on shazams ignore list. This thread is literally pointless . Can u just close this already


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 20, 2020)

Can I argue for Ziggy? I don't know him or particularly care for him, but I would like to try my hand at debating Shazam.


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## t0xeus (Jun 20, 2020)

I think it's safe to say now that Shazam isn't going to post his rebuttal.

@LostSelf @FlamingRain you can unpin this, thanks


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## LostSelf (Jun 20, 2020)

Done.

Let me know if Shazam decides to reply and you want me to pin it again.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 20, 2020)

First time I've seen a shitposter get absolutely demolished by someone who literally can't even post.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 20, 2020)

Shazam's a poster who fails to understand info from 2 manga, more than 4 databooks and several novels. It doesn't surprise me he lost despite his numerous attempts to rig the match beforehand.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShadowSoul (Jun 20, 2020)

Good win ziggy !!!!


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## 僕がキラだ (Jun 20, 2020)

Who won?


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## t0xeus (Jun 20, 2020)

Opening post deffo goes to Ziggy imo.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 20, 2020)

If even SM Jiraiya can't beat Itachi, then base Jiraiya didn't stand a chance in hell, especially against Tailless Tailed Beast Kisame at the same time, all while having to look out for Naruto too. Either Jiraiya had great acting skills and knew he would be screwed if they fought, or he was just in over his head, possibly thinking a shadow clone would be enough to stop Uchiha Itachi (in which case, lol). Him breaking a sweat at some leftover Amaterasu gave it all away tbh - if he thought he could take them on, he really didn't know what the hell he was getting himself into; if he thought he couldn't take them on, he was correct but still very far from the mark.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 20, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> If even SM Jiraiya can't beat Itachi, then base Jiraiya didn't stand a chance in hell, especially against Tailless Tailed Beast Kisame at the same time, all while having to look out for Naruto too. Either Jiraiya had great acting skills and knew he would be screwed if they fought, or he was just in over his head, possibly thinking a shadow clone would be enough to stop Uchiha Itachi (in which case, lol). Him breaking a sweat at some leftover Amaterasu gave it all away tbh - if he thought he could take them on, he really didn't know what the hell he was getting himself into; if he thought he couldn't take them on, he was correct but still very far from the mark.



Ziggy still had better arguments.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 21, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ziggy still had better arguments.


Yup, that's what I mean when I said "If even SM Jiraiya can't beat Itachi"


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## jesusus (Jun 21, 2020)

As expected.. A disappointment, not worthy of the University name. Your tenure on the Board of Directors is over, Jacy.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Yup, that's what I mean when I said "If even SM Jiraiya can't beat Itachi"


When is Ziggy coming back?


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 21, 2020)

King789 said:


> When is Ziggy coming back?


Maybe 2-3 months, I'm not really sure.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Maybe 2-3 months, I'm not really sure.


Hmm I see.


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## jesusus (Jun 21, 2020)

Ziggy said his ban is 4 months if I recall.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 21, 2020)

jesusus said:


> As expected.. A disappointment, not worthy of the University name. Your tenure on the Board of Directors is over, Jacy.


Yeah it is such a sad day for Shazam.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 21, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Ziggy said his ban is 4 months if I recall.


Ohh I see.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2020)

@Shazam

should have posted the manga

Originally Posted by Ch144, p8
Kisame:
「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
「次元が違う」
"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"Our levels are too far apart"

Itachi:
「ああ…やり合えは二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ」
「…たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう」
"Yeah... If we fought him, we might both be killed. If it goes well, we might take him with us."
"Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change"

Kisame
「ラーメン屋で やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
「彼が相手では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」
"It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."

Itachi:
「ああ…しかし……」
「どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ……」
"Yes... However......"
"No matter how strong a person is, he is bound to have a weakness..."



and call it a day. Any more than that is a waste of time and effort. 
if the judge(s) are not going to be convinced by a straight-forward statement when the author is spoon-feeding them they won't be convinced by anything else.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Zembie (Jun 21, 2020)

That was a clown fiesta worthy of the NBD.

Reactions: Like 1


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## 僕がキラだ (Jun 21, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Opening post deffo goes to Ziggy imo.


Lel. Rebuttal also goes to Ziggy cuz he destroyed dat ass. Not ignoring he made him “tap out”


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2020)

Hussain said:


> @Shazam
> 
> should have posted the manga
> 
> ...



There was the other part where Kisame didn't believe Itachi needed to run. But akhi knows more about emojis than he does about the manga. Don't bother with the Japanese, you barely grasp the English translations.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 21, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There was the other part where Kisame didn't believe Itachi needed to run. But akhi knows more about emojis than he does about the manga. Don't bother with the Japanese, you barely grasp the English translations.


Lmfao I am dead


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## JayK (Jun 21, 2020)

@Illusory we still waiting for your post here

it's not nice to leave Shazam waiting, even with his weird fetishes


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 21, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Kisame
> 「ラーメン屋で やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
> 「彼が相手では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」
> "It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
> "He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."


How exactly does Jiraiya of the Sannin make Madara of the Uchiha seem like nothing?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> How exactly does Jiraiya of the Sannin make Madara of the Uchiha seem like nothing?



I told you, this dude barely understands the English translations. 

This panel was lost to him:





*Translations
*
Njt goes into this: 
_Why do we need to retreat? // You could (*note it would end in *handle them* or something like that)_​
sss
Gottiem: 

_Kisame: Why do we need to retreat...?/Someone like you could have..._​

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> How exactly does Jiraiya of the Sannin make Madara of the Uchiha seem like nothing?


Simple.

Oro was able to tie with Asspulldara using Edo Hashirama
while at the same time taking on JJ Obito using Edo Minato & Edo Tobirama
and took on SZ using Edo Hiruzen...



what does the uchiha clan have that can handle Edo Hokages?


as for Jman Frog Song GG

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Asspulldara



His butthole is still sore because Minato got owned by Madara through several means. 

Yes... even after the manga ended.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 21, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Simple.


Nice Kakashi! 



Hussain said:


> Oro was able to tie with Asspulldara using Edo Hashirama
> while at the same time taking on JJ Obito using Edo Minato & Edo Tobirama
> and took on SZ using Edo Hiruzen...
> 
> ...


ck


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Nice Kakashi!
> 
> 
> ck



See what I mean.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 21, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> See what I mean.


Why is Hussain ignoring you?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2020)

King789 said:


> Why is Hussain ignoring you?



There was a comment he made to a poster, @t0xeus if I recall correctly about which related to Hussain's own brain cells. Let's just say Hussain walked into one of the best insults that even he couldn't reply to.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> This is the current year. *You should learn how to have conversations where you aren’t overly concerned with people’s sexuality, race, or age*.



Oh, I can do that_ just fine_, bruh. I just thought it was incredibly childish to call someone gAy as an insult. Felt to me as if you were still in kindergarten. That's fine, nothing against that. It does seem weird you're whining about me being ''overly concerned'' with people's sexuality after calling someone gAy as if you were still six years old, but I'll chalk that up to general immaturity.


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## Thenewguysnm1 (Jun 26, 2020)

Ziggy stomped

Just like in the manga the sannin never win.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 26, 2020)

Thenewguysnm1 said:


> Ziggy stomped
> 
> Just like in the manga the sannin never win.



Just like the manga, JuicyG (Jiraiya) got killed and his clone, Shazam (Kashin Koji) is walking around.


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## Sufex (Jun 26, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Just like the manga, JuicyG (Jiraiya) got killed and his clone, Shazam (Kashin Koji) is walking around.


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## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Oh, I can do that_ just fine_, bruh. I just thought it was incredibly childish to call someone gAy as an insult. Felt to me as if you were still in kindergarten. That's fine, nothing against that. It does seem weird you're whining about me being ''overly concerned'' with people's sexuality after calling someone gAy as if you were still six years old, but I'll chalk that up to general immaturity.



It’s been days and you randomly start crying about a meme again lol.


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> *Portrayal no Jutsu
> *
> The last words uttered for a dream match that piqued the curiosities of fanboys far and wide.  The last words uttered in _canon _at least.  When Orochimaru invaded the leaf he chipped away a portion of it's military strength along with their general. The Third, who at least by repute, was their strongest asset bar one. The last strongest lieutenant, Jiraiya.  I think we can agree he takes first spot to an undeveloped Kakashi, Might Guy and a wayward Tsunade, who's part one fighting skills are much less impressive than her 106 cm bust.  The time for ignorance has been over for more than a decade.  Is it really any surprise knowing what we know about Itachi's _true_ affiliation, that he would not want to kill or seriously injure the last strongest lieutenant?  Does debating the Jiraiya vanguard have to always be a game of pointing out the earth is not flat.
> 
> ...



This is all conjecture, mixed in a little assumption. Itachi was ok with furthering the goal for Akatsuki or more than one occasion outside of what occured in Konoha, he allowed Kisame to step foot in the village he was "double agent" to protect, had it not been for Jiraiya, Itachi and Kisame would have fled with the 9-Tails, at what point is this nonsense going to stop? Itachi was obviously more than willing to kill and/or assist the Akatsuki in order to protect what he held dear to his heart ---- Sasuke. Evident by the fact that he was ok with whatever decision Sasuke was going to make after their fight against Kabuto.

So no, Itachi didnt "spare" Jiraiya. That is utter garbage BS.




Ziggy Stardust said:


> *The Nightmare Realm
> *
> 
> 
> After realising the woman he courted was a sharingan puppet, Jiraiya confronted Itachi and _seemed_ to look into his eyes.  We can forgive him that, but that he left Naruto with genjutsu training destined to fail against Itachi or Sasuke is inexcusable... the former of whom was _hunting_ him and the latter of whom was his goal and target.  Naruto, despite spending 3 years with Jiraiya alone, did not know that eye contact with Itachi's is a non starter.  He only discovered the news when Kakashi exposited Tsukyomi's nature in part two.  Now we can deduce two things from this - Jiraiya is innately pathological and deliberately stunted his godson's training.... or he thinks a strong enough Kai seal or the parter method protects Naruto, and by extension himself.  In other words, Pervy Sage will probably go into the fight without any special measures, relying on Ma & Pa as his illusion defence, meaning that the old toad experiences a few days torture in a mere moment before his final croak.



It is true that fighting Itachi on limited or no intel can be disastrous (i.e Orochimaru). But if I recall this match up is with manga intel and with manga intel Jiraiya has heard about what happened with Kakashi. With AoE on his side and partner method actively running within the nature of his SM, genjutsu is unlikely to say the least.



Ziggy Stardust said:


> *3rd Eye *
> 
> Jiraiya might not be smart enough to avoid eye contact, but if he is, then Itachi can simply touch transfer tsukuyomi into Shisui's eye (the crow).  It will not take him long given that Jiraiya will probably start off the fight dancing or in mid ginyu pose, extolling his romantic or battle exploits like he did against Hanzo's killer.  A crow summoning and a touch is no problem for the fastest hands in the manga.  if he can transfer Mangekyou techniques into another eye, as he did with Sasuke in his last moments, then the theory works fine.  It's as solid as Yomi Numa landing and sinking "x",  only far more deadly.  Of course, if Jiraiya is in some way compromising his own vision to fight Itachi, all the worse for him against the next two techniques.



This entire point here is baseless and filled with more assumptions.





Ziggy Stardust said:


> *Unavoidable Fire*
> 
> 
> 
> Jiriaya knows how hot the fire burns.  However, the technique was not cast in front of him.  Not knowing how fast it travels...that it simply appears to spawn on targets at a certain range.  A4 skimmed it using a Bijou level body flicker... his max speed.  And of course, he was tipped off by looking at Sasuke's eyes first.  Something Jiraiya can not afford here. The speed of it means cannot rely on whatever semblance of sensing prowess he may or may not possess.  The premier mangekyou techniques alone are enough.  An Itachi victory is based on a decision on his part, the decision to win..



No where is it stated that Itachi has control over how hot the Amaterasu flames burn. Its simply the result of inconsistency with Kishi and Amaterasu. On one end Itachi fans like to push the narrative of the high end feats of the flame while on the other end I would speak to Amaterasu armor and clothes. Its likely that its somewhere in the middle. Itachi fans also like to take this chance to ignore the Databook about the Amaterasu range of effectivness but then bring up the Databook when convenient when thinking it says Sasuke only surpasses Itachi with EMS... Typical



Ziggy Stardust said:


> *The Sword & The Sake*
> 
> The final weapon of the trifecta.  Can Jiraiya evade?  Depends on whether he's faster than Nagato or Orochimaru can think.  Edo Nagato could activate barriers before KCM Naruto and Bee with intimate space, both of whom are on V2 A's plain of speed.  On the other hand, the Human path could react to Jiriaya in a puff of smoke. From what I can tell the Totsuka blade is faster than Sasuke's arrow... but the _true_ beauty of it lies in the fact that a sword swing can change trajectory if it misses.  Can Jiraiya tank?  If the Totsuka blade is formless, an ethereal object in nature as reported, than no physical defence will even interact with it. It will slip through the strongest wall like an apparition.  But if it does have a physical limit, it's at least stronger than the thick protruding bones of Kimmimaro as channelled by Sage Kabuto.  If Jiraiya shows us an aptitude of skill beyond what manga pages depict by avoiding Amaterasu & Tsukyomi, then final trump card should seal him for good.



"Faster than Orochi or Nagato can think" - This is wank. Orochi was not concerned with the Susanoo or its weaponary, that was evident on panel, he truly believed that nothing was going to hurt him, he wasnt trying to evade or anything literally allowing Itachi to try his best while laughing. He did not know that it had a sealing property, so being stunned or surprised by what was happening is FAR more accurate to the situation that saying "Uh dur Itachi is so fast Orchimaru cant even register a thought"

Again, this wank fest from the beginning sentence is what leads the rest of this paragraph to follow with false conjecture



Ziggy Stardust said:


> *Countermeasures #1 : feint*
> If a perfect jins attacks are foiled, the same can certainly be said for any jutsu Jiriaya has, and those tentacles were able to intercept Minato.  It can indeed troll all offensives:  Swamps, Fires, Chakra Spheres, Wild Hair, Frog Call (which probably doesn't work on shinobi), Wind, Oil etc.  And yes... it can be cast with just a finger.   If for some fan fiction tier reason genjutsu is off the cards completely he can do the same with a crow clone.. Just like with Kabuto.



Itachi is an excellent clone fient user. However the times we seem him use it best was not against mid-ranged AoE ninjutsu users in Sage Mode with 2 other perfect sages actively watching and sensing the surrounding area. Furthermore Itachi was matched by BoS Kakashi in this regard (albeit against a 30% chakra clone). 



Ziggy Stardust said:


> *Countermeasures #2: Side Step No Jutsu*
> Jiraiya claims hair needles are his fastest offence covering a wide range, yet Itachi can dodge blindsides from Bee's while swapping hands with KCM?  It's just another cost effective method at negating Jiraiya's arsenal, and it's not like shunshin is limited in range either.  The _theory _that AOE attacks are undodgable is an idea born from Sanninband dreams...  you simply upgrade to _big side step no jutsu_ if the person you're arguing for is good enough.  This is of course, is assuming that Itachi is in a playful mood and doesn't try to end the match in the three ways outlined straight away.  If all fails, there are the lesser forms of Susanoo to fall back on as a defense for Jiraiya's attacks.  V4 isn't needed.



Base bee was also evaded by Kisame if I recall, and the idea that you believe Living Itachi (i know you like to rely on all this Edo Itachi showings because otherwise, what are you left with...) can keep up with FP KCM Naruto in combat is a joke. This same naruto moments later fizzed out of chakra, he was 1/13th spread about the battlefield and was holding a discussion with Itachi CASUALLY while swapping hands. Nothing to take from that at all.  Again, Jiraiya is fighting with Mid Range AoE, not combating Itachi Hand to Hand, and good luck when you have two toads using Frog Kata



Ziggy Stardust said:


> *Countermeasures #3 Rebuking LOS Blockers
> *
> Itachi is already capable of evading attacks without looking as seen above.  He did the same to Naruto's clones taking his back in the _Itachi Pursuit _arc.  But even while partially paralysed, blinded and deafened by White Rage, his insightfulness allows him predict an opponents next move.  But beyond that, he can literally see through solid rocks with his Sharingan...  If Jiraiya thinks he's safe in the cover of physical smoke bombs, he's doomed.  The only other option is Ma's Wind Style used blow up dust against Pain.  But as low ranked wind style, it's only fuel for amaterasu or even Katon.  Their attempt to block Itachi's LOS would result in their cremation... and that's true for which ever method they chose.



Simple mist jutsu obscures the sharingan vision, so any chakra based AoE does the same.


*5 mins of typing and 90% of what was said here is bologna. This is what everyone was complaining about me not replying too? This is the post with 15 likes on it from Itachi fanboys?*

*Do better. Sitting here on my phone in the shitter at work and I can't believe this was your best argument, I could have argued for Itachi better than this..*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 26, 2020)

Man posts *after *the time limit is elapsed and *after *he knows Ziggy is gone for good. Oh ShazamG


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Man posts *after *the time limit is elapsed and *after *he knows Ziggy is gone for good. Oh ShazamG



Ziggy was gone like 2 days after he made his post. Which made me not want to post. But you idiots want to keep insisting that I do or should have and even when I do you have shit to say. Get a life


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 26, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Ziggy was gone like 2 days after he made his post. Which made me not want to post. But you idiots want to keep insisting that I do or should have and even when I do you have shit to say. Get a life



You posted when you knew he wouldn't reply _after _you tried to rig the debate and _after _the time elapsed and _after _you got wind that he won't get back. You proved you can't debate. Not that it needed proving.


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You posted when you knew he wouldn't reply _after _you tried to rig the debate and _after _the time elapsed and _after _you got wind that he won't get back. You proved you can't debate. Not that it needed proving.



I have not heard he wasnt coming back. Lies

I was planning on a full debate, not him getting banned. More lies

I decided for a long time not to reply since he WAS banned, but people still wanted me too. Even more lies

Get a life


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> It’s been days and you randomly start crying about a meme again lol.



To be quite honest, I didn't see your last post until very recently. That's why it's been ''days''. I respond to people whenever they quote me, even if it may be later rather than sooner. Seems like you're upset that I responded for some reason? I can't imagine why. 

Anyone using ''gay'' as an insult must not have progressed beyond kindergarten. I'm surprised why your mommy allows you to be on your computer instead of playing with the other kids. Maybe I'm missing something. Hmm.


----------



## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> To be quite honest, I didn't see your last post until very recently. That's why it's been ''days''.
> 
> Also, anyone using ''gay'' as an insult must not have progressed beyond kindergarten. I'm surprised why your mommy allows you to be on your computer instead of playing with the other kids.



Lol I love that you're an angry little soyboy that whines about the silliest things.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> I get it, you're an angry soyboy.



Who said I was virtue signalling, bro? I'm just wondering if you didn't get past kindergarten.

Not sure what being in kindergarten has to do with virtue either. Children are _pure of heart_, in my view. Maybe a little rambunctious. I'm also not sure how you got I was an ''angry soyboy'' when I'm not angry at you at all - why would I be angered by the actions of a wayward child? And soyboy? Soy isn't my thing, kiddo. Tried it once and didn't really like it. Full fat milk for me all day. You should try some too, it's good for your brain and good for your bones, especially at your tender age.
*
Edit*: Did you seriously just call *yourself* a nobody? Damn, son. That's way too self-loathing for someone so young. You okay?


----------



## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who said I was virtue signalling, bro? I'm just wondering if you didn't get past kindergarten.
> 
> Not sure what being in kindergarten has to do with virtue either. Children are _pure of heart_, in my view. Maybe a little rambunctious.
> *
> Edit*: Did you seriously just call yourself a nobody? Damn, son. That's way too self-loathing for someone so young.



Lol it's crazy how much a "mods are gay" meme from nearly two weeks ago has made you cry.

I look forward to having you obsessively whine about other memes in the future.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Lol it's crazy how much a "mods are gay" meme from last week has made you cry.



Who said I was crying? I just think that's kindergarten level humor.

Are you offended I pointed that out? I didn't realize kindergartners were on NF. That's a sobering realization tbh.

Edit: Inb4 Illusory edits his post after the fact like he always does

Edit 2: Yep, Illusory did it again.

Edit 3: And again.


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## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who said I was crying?



You have been non-stop whining, crying, etc. about a meme. Or edits. Or anything, it seems like.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Edit: Inb4 Illusory edits his post after the fact like he always does



_"Waaaaaah,_ he uses the edit function."





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Edit 2: Yep, Illusory did it again.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You did:



Where did I say I was crying?

_


Illusory said:



			Waaaaaah,
		
Click to expand...

_


Illusory said:


> the mean man edits his posts.



Imagine referring to yourself as a ''mean man''. Looks like someone's insecure about his masculinity.


----------



## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Imagine referring to yourself as a ''mean man''. Looks like someone's insecure about his masculinity.



"He referred to himself as a mean man!"


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> "He referred to himself as a mean man!"



Damn, is that you, son? You look adorable!


----------



## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Damn, is that you, son? You look adorable!





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Using ''I know you are but what am I?'' as a comeback...well, we aren't in kindergarten any more. In case you missed that part.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


>



Yo. What's wrong with saying you look adorable?


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## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Damn, is that you, son? You look adorable!





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yo. What's wrong with saying you look adorable?



You do seem like the type of creeper that would try to start a conversation with a baby online this way lol.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You do seem like the type of creep that would try to start a conversation with a baby online lol.



I'm a creep for not knowing I was speaking to a kindergartner? I mean, I wasn't sure the first time, which is why I pointed it out...

Also, is this really coming from the guy who supports legalized child trafficking?


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## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, is this really coming from the guy who supports legalized child trafficking?



I assume you're just projecting your "aren't you an adorable baby" creepiness some more here.

But feel free to quote whatever post you think is saying this (rather than your creepy interpretation/inference).


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Quote me? I assume you're just projecting your "aren't you an adorable baby" *creepiness* some more here.



Unfortunately I can't, as those posts were deleted. I remember the truth though.

Also, it's really sad to imagine that you're terrified of me.


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## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Unfortunately I can't, as those posts were deleted. I remember the truth though. Also, it's really kind of sad to imagine that you're terrified of me.



Lol being creeped out and being terrified are different things.

So far, you've become absurdly fixated on a 2-week-old "mods are gay" meme, and reference "deleted posts" where I support child trafficking (didn't happen) after you creepily assume I'm a baby and repeatedly calling me adorable, _after_ calling me a kindergartner repeatedly (6 times?) and repeatedly asking if I was one. Like WTF, dude. Flamebait like a normal person.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 26, 2020)




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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Lol being creeped out by you and being terrified are different things.



creep someone out
phrasal verb of creep
past tense: *creeped*; past participle: *creeped*
informal
*give someone an unpleasant feeling of fear* or unease.
"an anonymous note like that would creep me out"

Not that different.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 26, 2020)

Shazam said:


> I have not heard he wasnt coming back. Lies
> 
> I was planning on a full debate, not him getting banned. More lies
> 
> ...



You read the thread, you obviously knew he wasn't and decided to reply when you knew he wouldn't reply. You can read, right? Well, you not being able to read or understand what you read could be a good defence seeing as you've proven 2 manga and several databooks are beyond your comprehension. 

Are you rattled, JuicyG?


----------



## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Assume you have the mental capacity of a kindergartner, yes.



You believe I have the mental capacity of a kindergartner, yet you're calling me adorable online and repeatedly trying to interact with me like I'm a kindergartner?



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Damn, is that you, son? You look adorable!





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yo. What's wrong with saying you look adorable?





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who said I was virtue signalling, bro? I'm just wondering if you didn't get past kindergarten.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> I didn't realize kindergartners were on NF. That's a sobering realization tbh.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Felt to me as if you were still in kindergarten. That's fine, nothing against that.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fine. Are you saying you _are_ in kindergarten?





Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm surprised why your mommy allows you to be on your computer instead of playing with the other kids. Maybe I'm missing something. Hmm.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not sure what being in kindergarten has to do with virtue either. Children are _pure of heart_, in my view. Maybe a little rambunctious.





This, combined with randomly believing I support legalizing child trafficking based on "deleted posts" you can't see or reference anymore is a little much (which was 100% not what I said _ever_, btw, which you refuse to believe, which is _weird_, man). Please don't interact with me anymore.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You believe I have the mental capacity of a kindergartner



Where's the lie though?



Illusory said:


> yet you're calling me adorable online


Imagine unironically pretending to be a 2 year old because someone pointed out your jokes stink.



Illusory said:


> and *repeatedly trying to interact with me*? That is just weird.



Gasp, how DARE I reply to your responses to my comment.



Illusory said:


> Do me a BIG favor, and just don't interact with me anymore lol.



You're the one responding to all of my posts, buddy. No one asked or obligated you to do so.

Anyway, concession accepted.

Edit: Also, you 100% supported legalized child trafficking. Don't lie now.


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## Illusory (Jun 26, 2020)




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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You read the thread, you obviously knew he wasn't and decided to reply when you knew he wouldn't reply. You can read, right? Well, you not being able to read or understand what you read could be a good defence seeing as you've proven 2 manga and several databooks are beyond your comprehension.
> 
> Are you rattled, JuicyG?



Why can't we just recall this whole debate and do it again? A ban seems like a reason to redo it all. 

Happy with either character. And it would be nice to have mature discussions as opposed to more ''yOu gAy'' memes or insults.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 26, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Why can't we just recall this whole debate and do it again? A ban seems like a reason to redo it all.
> 
> Happy with either character. And it would be nice to have mature discussions as opposed to more ''yOu gAy'' memes or insults.



ShazamG will just disappear again.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 26, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> ShazamG will just disappear again.



Why not just get new people then? I could take Jiraiya and you could take Itachi.

Or even just the opposite. It would be interesting to argue for Itachi for a change


----------



## Shazam (Jun 26, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You read the thread, you obviously knew he wasn't and decided to reply when you knew he wouldn't reply. You can read, right? Well, you not being able to read or understand what you read could be a good defence seeing as you've proven 2 manga and several databooks are beyond your comprehension.
> 
> Are you rattled, JuicyG?



I havent read shit on this thread. Just like I rarely even read your posts lol


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## Sufex (Jun 27, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Why not just get new people then? I could take Jiraiya and you could take Itachi.
> 
> Or even just the opposite. It would be interesting to argue for Itachi for a change


Head up to the  challenger thread and let this letdown match die


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2020)

the fuck is going on here?


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 27, 2020)

We need more threads like this


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## ShadowSoul (Jun 27, 2020)

Go go go go who’s next ?!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 27, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Why not just get new people then? I could take Jiraiya and you could take Itachi.
> 
> Or even just the opposite. It would be interesting to argue for Itachi for a change



That would be interesting. 



Shazam said:


> I havent read shit on this thread. Just like I rarely even read your posts lol



Someone's mad.


----------



## Shazam (Jun 27, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That would be interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone's mad.



.. well guess it's time. 

Welcome to the ignore list troll


----------



## ShadowSoul (Jun 27, 2020)

Shazam said:


> .. well guess it's time.
> 
> Welcome to the ignore list troll



Isn’t the “ ignore list “ what led to you not seeing tox’s thread in the first place.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 27, 2020)

Shazam said:


> .. well guess it's time.
> 
> Welcome to the ignore list troll



I thought you didn't read the posts?


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## Shazam (Jun 27, 2020)

ShadowSoul said:


> Isn’t the “ ignore list “ what led to you not seeing tox’s thread in the first place.



It was at the beginning around the time my opponent was banned. But nonetheless it serves its purpose and does so very well


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 22, 2020)

Sticky this.

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 22, 2020)

Ahh boys.
The legend @Ziggy Stardust  is back  
@dergeist 
@Illusory 
@Troyse22 
@MaruUchiha 
@Mad Scientist 
@Crimson Flam3s 
@Ayala

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sloan (Dec 22, 2020)

I'm ded.  Thot Ziggs was Perma'd.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 22, 2020)

King789 said:


> Ahh boys.
> The legend @Ziggy Stardust  is back
> @dergeist
> @Illusory
> ...

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 22, 2020)

A reminder that even ShazamG knows his arguments are dogshit.  

I'm convinced Turrin and himself legitimately processed Baryon Mode Naruto vs Isshiki as Kashin Koji vs Isshiki.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Duhul10 (Dec 22, 2020)

The itachi wankfest here is impressive. It feels like it's been 100 years since I've last seen this, lol.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Ayala (Dec 22, 2020)



Reactions: Winner 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Dec 22, 2020)

Ziggy came back from the shadow realm. Interesting.


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## Santoryu (Dec 22, 2020)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Ziggy came back from the shadow realm. Interesting.



Trump lost the election
So it makes sense


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 22, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Trump lost the election
> So it makes sense

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Santoryu (Dec 22, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 22, 2021)

we should really finish this tbh @Shazam

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 22, 2021)

Didnt ShazzyG literally get slaughtered but saved at the last minute by Ziggys ban???

Whats left to finish

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 22, 2021)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Didnt ShazzyG literally get slaughtered but saved at the last minute by Ziggys ban???
> 
> Whats left to finish



@Shazam believes he won this one.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Kinda sad no one picked this up. Oh well.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 22, 2021)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> @Shazam believes he won this one.


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## t0xeus (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazzy can still come back from this, don't you dare underestimate him. We believe in you, JuicyG!! Show him what you got!! Imagine yourself as Jman when the fire of will kicked in and he came back to life!

(no shot he doesnt get embarassed yet again, but he NEEDS some encouragement to come back somehow)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tri (Aug 22, 2021)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shazam (Aug 22, 2021)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> we should really finish this tbh @Shazam



Start a new thread. And eliminate outside posts or its a no for me

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Sufex (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Start a new thread. And eliminate outside posts or its a no for me


WOOO

@t0xeus  LETS GET IT ON!

first aegon vs ws now shazam vs ziggy. Its a nbd christmas

@Ziggy Stardust  try not to get banned again this time

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Aug 22, 2021)

Idk how to eliminate outside posts though, there is no feature for that


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## Sufex (Aug 22, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Idk how to eliminate outside posts though, there is no feature for that


Just tell outside posters not to post till its over like they normally do. And if anyone does just tell them to stfu and ignore them

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Sufex (Aug 22, 2021)

Same judges? 

@Kisame 
@Veracity 
@Soul 
@FlamingRain 
@Mawt 
@Atlantic Storm


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## Shazam (Aug 22, 2021)

Sufex said:


> Same judges?
> 
> @Kisame
> @Veracity
> ...



If the judges I choose aren't active anymore. Replace them with @Mithos / @Isaiah13000

Reactions: Funny 3 | Friendly 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 22, 2021)

get a mod to clean the thread.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazam said:


> If the judges I choose aren't active anymore. Replace them with @Mithos / @Isaiah13000



R you wanting to start an entire new debate, as in new arguments and all?

Because otherwise, we can just get some mod to delete all the posts here.


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## Speedyamell (Aug 22, 2021)

Well this was a treat to read through lmao


----------



## Troyse22 (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazam said:


> If the judges I choose aren't active anymore. Replace them with @Mithos / @Isaiah13000



Lol yeah geez I'm sure their personal biases won't effect their judging at all.

Getting those 2 judges is flat out 2 votes in your favor and you know that.

These debate threads are a fucking joke and the NBD is too polarized either wanking Jiraiya or rating him fairly which Shazam will say is the judges being biased against Jiraiya.

Stupid thread idea. Was stupid then and even dumber now

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shazam (Aug 22, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> Lol yeah geez I'm sure their personal biases won't effect their judging at all.



Which is the exact reason someone like yourself will never judge any thread I'm involved with concerning any Sannin. 

Don't throw rocks when you yourself is a glass house


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## Troyse22 (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Which is the exact reason someone like yourself will never judge any thread I'm involved with concerning any Sannin.
> 
> Don't throw rocks when you yourself is a glass house



I don't wanna be a judge. Because I'm in this camp 


Troyse22 said:


> rating him fairly which Shazam will say is the judges being biased against Jiraiya.



And I don't believe any remotely decent argument exists for Jiraiya beating Itachi. There has never been a decent one, and there never will be because it's impossible. An outdated P1 statement which is already suspicious right on the face of it doesn't change that.


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## Shazam (Aug 22, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> I don't wanna be a judge. Because I'm in this camp
> 
> 
> And I don't believe any remotely decent argument exists for Jiraiya beating Itachi. There has never been a decent one, and there never will be because it's impossible. An outdated P1 statement which is already suspicious right on the face of it doesn't change that.



Your opinion concerning Jiraiya frankly means nothing to me. You aren't involved here kiddo


----------



## Troyse22 (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Your opinion concerning Jiraiya frankly means nothing to me. You aren't involved here kiddo



I don't give a shit  you don't have to want or like my opinion. I think a bag of rocks is smarter than you anyways. This thread is no longer a debate thread, so if you don't like my opinion, ignore me.


----------



## Mawt (Aug 22, 2021)

I guess I can judge.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 22, 2021)

I'm just gonna respond to your last rebuttal tbh.




Shazam said:


> Itachi was ok with furthering the goal for Akatsuki or more than one occasion outside of what occured in Konoha, he allowed Kisame to step foot in the village he was "double agent" to protect, had it not been for Jiraiya, Itachi and Kisame would have fled with the 9-Tails,



nice fanfic

The real reason Itachi was there : 

*Link Removed*

*Link Removed*



Shazam said:


> Itachi was obviously more than willing to kill and/or assist the Akatsuki



*Link Removed*


*Link Removed*


*Link Removed*

And ofc

*Link Removed*



Shazam said:


> Evident by the fact that he was ok with whatever decision Sasuke was going to make after their fight against Kabuto.



Cause he had a contingency

*Link Removed*




Shazam said:


> So no, Itachi didnt "spare" *Jiraiya in that hallway.* That is utter garbage BS



And yet :



Shazam said:


> It is true that *fighting Itachi on limited or no intel *can be disastrous (i.e Orochimaru)





He tried to challenge Itachi in that hallway with no intel, while looking at his eyes no less.

Guess you agree that retreat wasn't necessary for him.



Shazam said:


> This entire point here is baseless and filled with more assumptions.



> Itachi can transfer Ms techs into eyes with a touch, he did so on death's door to Sauce
> Itachi has a crow with an MS implanted

Do the math boyo.



Shazam said:


> No where is it stated that Itachi has control over how hot the Amaterasu flames burn.



How else do you explain the discrepancy?



Shazam said:


> Its simply the result of inconsistency with Kishi and Amaterasu.



And luckily for me, said inconsistencies landed Itachi with all Ama's good feats and none of the bad ones.

One look upon Jman is all it takes for a Toad BBQ, see the fireproof stomach for reference.



Shazam said:


> Itachi fans also like to take this chance to ignore the Databook about the Amaterasu range of effectivness but then bring up the Databook when convenient when thinking it says Sasuke only surpasses Itachi with EMS... Typical



The manga contradicts one and not the other.

*Link Removed*

Also, you got a scan of Jman recalling Amaterasu's range? Because he engaged Pain in Cqc five times and probably does the same here. Looks like he gets ashed even if the DB assumptions hold.



Shazam said:


> "Faster than Orochi or Nagato can think" - This is wank. Orochi was not concerned with the Susanoo or its weaponary, that was evident on panel, he truly believed that nothing was going to hurt him, he wasnt trying to evade or anything literally allowing Itachi to try his best while laughing. He did not know that it had a sealing property, so being stunned or surprised by what was happening is FAR more accurate to the situation that saying "Uh dur Itachi is so fast Orchimaru cant even register a thought"



Orochimaru was literally caught between words.

And Nagato could wall Rasengan at this distance :

*Link Removed*

Still cucks to Totsuka.  Argue the smoke cloud made the difference all you want, Itachi can supplement that by sending some god-forsaken crows in Jman's direction.



Shazam said:


> Itachi is an excellent clone fient user. However the times we seem him use it best was not against mid-ranged AoE ninjutsu users in Sage Mode with 2 other perfect sages actively watching and sensing the surrounding area.



He did so against a better sensor in Kabuto while EMS Sasuke didn't notice.



Shazam said:


> Furthermore Itachi was matched by BoS Kakashi in this regard (albeit against a 30% chakra clone).



If you clone feint a clone, who is really the one being feinted?



Shazam said:


> and the idea that you believe Living Itachi (i know you like to rely on all this Edo Itachi showings because otherwise, what are you left with...) can keep up with FP KCM Naruto in combat is a joke. This same naruto moments later fizzed out of chakra,



The same Naruto fought an entire battle with Nagato before that and had a literal tug of war with his soul in which he remarked :

*Link Removed*




Shazam said:


> Simple mist jutsu obscures the sharingan vision



Of which Jman doesn't have.



Shazam said:


> so any chakra based AoE does the same.



Not for any sustained amount of time.

If Itachi can see Jiraiya, he's dead.

If Jiraiya can see Itachi, he's also dead.



Shazam said:


> *Do better. Sitting here on my phone in the shitter at work and I can't believe this was your best argument, I could have argued for Itachi better than this..*



I agree, you merely supporting the other character in this thread does more to convince people Itachi wins than I ever could.

Stack your judges with all the Sannin band members you can find.  They literally wanted to end the thread when I was banned because they all knew you would lose.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazam said:


> If the judges I choose aren't active anymore. Replace them with @Mithos / @Isaiah13000


I appreciate the offer, but I don't want to judge formal debates, I don't even like having them myself.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Capa13 (Aug 22, 2021)

I’m in awe that human beings think SM Jiraiya is above Itachi. Truly in awe.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Creative 1


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## Duhul10 (Aug 22, 2021)

Capa13 said:


> I’m in awe that human beings think SM Jiraiya is above Itachi. Truly in awe.


I'm in awe that people believe the wreck that Sick Itachi is is above a guy said to beat Pain by Pain himself and who wasn't revived due to Obito advising Kabuto not to push it.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Shazam (Aug 22, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I appreciate the offer, but I don't want to judge formal debates, I don't even like having them myself.



Fair enough


----------



## Shazam (Aug 22, 2021)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I'm just gonna respond to your last rebuttal tbh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Save it


----------



## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 22, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Save it



for what my boy?

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Shazam (Aug 22, 2021)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> for what my boy?



For this debate you asking for


----------



## Capa13 (Aug 22, 2021)

Duhul10 said:


> I'm in awe that people believe the wreck that Sick Itachi is is above a guy said to beat Pain by Pain himself and who wasn't revived due to Obito advising Kabuto not to push it.


“Said to beat Pain” ahh yes the “this character said this from a biased perspective so it’s evidence to prove my point”.

Ok Black zetsu lived for 1000 years and saw all shinobi including even Madara and Hashirama and he claimed Itachi was “invincible” sooo looks like Itachi >> Madara and Hashirama. This argument is horrendous.

Jiraiya beat the 3 weakest Pains because of a genjutsu that he couldn’t even cast on his own and he was blitzed by the Asura path despite being a SM sensor.

It’s very obvious to tell hyperbole from factual statements. Pain “aka Nagato” had so much respect for Jiraiya as his teacher/sensei that he held him in high regard. The fact that Jiraiya was an imperfect Sage and required a lot of time to knead the chakra in order to just enter imperfect SM and the fact that Naruto who was stated by Pa to have surpassed Jiraiya’s SM and who had the 3 strongest toad summons in Mount Myoboku still couldn’t beat Pain goes to show the illegitimacy of that statement from Pain. I mean Jiraiya didn’t even push Pain to use any of his stronger abilities like bansho tenin, chibaku tensei or shinra tensei whatsoever and was blitz by the Asura path.

Jiraiya is overrated as fuck. And people either overrate the living shit out of Itachi (like calling him the so called “solo king” and comparing him to SP characters which is ridiculous), or underrate the shit out of him like calling him weaker than SM Jiraiya.

Reactions: Lewd 2


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## Sufex (Aug 22, 2021)

This debate aint happening is it. Welp i guess i got work tomorrow to look foreward to

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Sufex said:


> This debate aint happening is it. Welp i guess i got work tomorrow to look foreward to



Yeah, don't waste your time  

We can have a mini-debate if you'd like though (but we have to finish it tonight)

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Sufex (Aug 22, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, don't waste your time
> 
> We can have a mini-debate if you'd like though (but we have to finish it tonight)


Thanks for the offer but im going to bed

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Sufex said:


> Thanks for the offer but im going to bed



What time is it at your place?


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## Sufex (Aug 22, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What time is it at your place?


12am, why?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Sufex said:


> 12am, why?



Ah lol 

It's only 7:10 PM where I am.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kisame (Aug 22, 2021)

Sufex said:


> Same judges?
> 
> @Kisame
> @Veracity
> ...


As long as everything is agreed upon and @Shazam and @Ziggy Stardust are fine with me being a judge, I'm down.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 22, 2021)

Capa13 said:


> “Said to beat Pain” ahh yes the “this character said this from a biased perspective so it’s evidence to prove my point”.
> 
> Ok Black zetsu lived for 1000 years and saw all shinobi including even Madara and Hashirama and he claimed Itachi was “invincible” sooo looks like Itachi >> Madara and Hashirama. This argument is horrendous.
> 
> ...


Let me guess? You've just joined and you've read the manga maybe once

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Capa13 said:


> Jiraiya beat the 3 weakest Pains



Actually, Animal is one of the three strongest, and the weakest path (Naraka) wasn't there...



Capa13 said:


> because of a genjutsu that he couldn’t even cast on his own



What are you talking about? Jiraiya's summons are a part of his power.

Even Pain praises it as Jiraiya's Genjutsu.



Capa13 said:


> and he was blitzed by the Asura path despite being a SM sensor



This is the only part you got almost right...except Jiraiya has close to zero sensing feats and nothing proves Ma and Pa were actively sensing at the time (we see later on that chakra sensing is not something passive, but active).


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Capa13 said:


> “Said to beat Pain” ahh yes the “this character said this from a biased perspective so it’s evidence to prove my point”



Proof that Pain is biased?  

He is the guy that actually fought Jiraiya. I think he knows full well what his enemy was capable of. Also, explain to us why Pain is a less reliable source of information than some random fanboy.



Capa13 said:


> Ok Black zetsu lived for 1000 years and saw all shinobi including even Madara and Hashirama and he claimed Itachi was “invincible” sooo looks like Itachi >> Madara and Hashirama. This argument is horrendous



Obvious hyperbole is obvious. 

This is the difference between a sports commentator calling Lionel Messi "unstoppable" and the same commentator calling him "one of the best players". The former is hyperbole, the latter is a statement of fact. 



Capa13 said:


> It’s very obvious to tell hyperbole from factual statements. Pain “aka Nagato” had so much respect for Jiraiya as his teacher/sensei that he held him in high regard



Didn't stop Pain from killing Jiraiya and outright spitting on Jiraiya's beliefs though  

He even yells at Naruto about not wanting to believe in Jiraiya again.



Capa13 said:


> I mean Jiraiya didn’t even push Pain to use any of his stronger abilities like bansho tenin, chibaku tensei or shinra tensei whatsoever and was blitz by the Asura path.



Still did better than PA Kakashi though


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## Capa13 (Aug 22, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Proof that Pain is biased?
> 
> He is the guy that actually fought Jiraiya. I think he knows full well what his enemy was capable of. Also, explain to us why Pain is a less reliable source of information than some random fanboy.
> 
> ...


Dude I already said I’m done arguing with you over head canon “ThAtS ObViOuSlY HyPeRbOlE “but “PaIn WaSnT bEiNg BiAsEd”. Move on. Nagato was basically raised for 2 years and had his life saved by Jiraiya. Everything he knows was taught to him by Jiraiya and Jiraiya was his mentor. “PrOoF PaIn WaS bEiNg BiAsEd”.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sufex (Aug 22, 2021)

Capa13 said:


> Dude I already said I’m done arguing with you over head canon “ThAtS ObViOuSlY HyPeRbOlE “but “PaIn WaSnT bEiNg BiAsEd”. Move on. Nagato was basically raised for 2 years and had his life saved by Jiraiya. Everything he knows was taught to him by Jiraiya and Jiraiya was his mentor. “PrOoF PaIn WaS bEiNg BiAsEd”.


Dont forget this great peice of portrayal my young padawan



*Spoiler*: __ 



now just wait for the cope and seething


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## Capa13 (Aug 22, 2021)

Sufex said:


> Dont forget this great peice of portrayal my young padawan
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yea. Let’s just ignore all this.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Capa13 said:


> Dude I already said I’m done arguing with you over head canon



We're done when I say I'm done.



Capa13 said:


> “ThAtS ObViOuSlY HyPeRbOlE “but “PaIn WaSnT bEiNg BiAsEd”. Move on.



You move on...and accept the truth.



Capa13 said:


> Nagato was basically raised for 2 years and had his life saved by Jiraiya. Everything he knows was taught to him by Jiraiya and Jiraiya was his mentor



Still killed Jiraiya and didn't even give him a proper burial. In addition, he openly disavowed Jiraiya's beliefs to Naruto.



Capa13 said:


> “PrOoF PaIn WaS bEiNg BiAsEd”.



Yes, you haven't presented any proof.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Also, respecting someone (someone you killed, btw) is not proof of bias. I can't believe you don't even know what bias means, but given that I'm talking with the guy that also thinks hyperboles either don't exist or aren't separate from facts...


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## Capa13 (Aug 22, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, respecting someone (someone you killed, btw) is not proof of bias. I can't believe you don't even know what bias means, but given that I'm talking with the guy that also thinks hyperboles either don't exist or aren't separate from facts...


When making statements on the prowess of the only father figure in you live since the death of your parents, and the man who believed and called you the “child of prophecy”,  there is a conflict of interest. There is a lot more validity in the statements of people without any familial/close bond between each other???

Answer these questions for me with simply yes or no. They are simply yes or no question.

Did Jiraiya only destroy/kill the 3 weakest Pains (I’ll give you a tip, the answer is yes)

Did Jiraiya only kill those Pains because of a genjutsu that he had Ma and Pa cast and that he couldn’t cast himself?

Did the second/3rd strongest Pain blitz rip his arm off while he was in SM??

Did Pain ever have to use the Deva Path (strongest path of pain) to engage/damage Jiraiya?

All yes or no. Everybody knows the answer.

Also Orochimaru and Jiraiya both think Orochimaru is stronger and even if Jiraiya is stronger, he isn’t sooo much stronger to the point where the gap in power can compensate for a blind and seconds from death Itachi 1 shorting his Hydra.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 22, 2021)

Boy, I seem to have found...the worst debater ever on NBD (outside of Bob and Slime, and those two are probably just trolls or dupes).



Capa13 said:


> When making statements on the prowess of the only father figure in you live since the death of your parents, and the man who believed and called you the “child of prophecy”



None of which stopped Pain from killing Jiraiya. Next.



Capa13 said:


> There is a lot more validity in the statements of people without any familial/close bond between each other???



Pain is Jiraiya's mortal enemy. They were no longer master and student or allies in any capacity. Next.



Capa13 said:


> Did Jiraiya only destroy/kill the 3 weakest Pains[



Nope, he killed the 2nd/3rd strongest path too - the Animal Path.



Capa13 said:


> Did Jiraiya only kill those Pains because of a genjutsu that he had Ma and Pa cast and that he couldn’t cast himself?



No, because Ma and Pa are Jiraiya's summons and thus part of his power.



Capa13 said:


> Did the second/3rd strongest Pain blitz rip his arm off while he was in SM??



Yes, I never contested that 



Capa13 said:


> Did Pain ever have to use the Deva Path (strongest path of pain) to engage/damage Jiraiya?



Nope. 



Capa13 said:


> All yes or no. Everybody knows the answer



Yep, everybody knows you're incorrect  

@ThirdRidoku @Lyren @Code @Isaiah13000 Thoughts?  



Capa13 said:


> Also Orochimaru and Jiraiya both think Orochimaru is stronger and even if Jiraiya is stronger, he isn’t sooo much stronger to the point where the gap in power can compensate for a blind and seconds from death Itachi 1 shorting his Hydra



Never said Jiraiya is much stronger than Orochimaru (and I'm also willing to accept Oro is stronger or equal, just don't agree).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Capa13 (Aug 23, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Boy, I seem to have found...the worst debater ever on NBD (outside of Bob and Slime, and those two are probably just trolls or dupes).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay… the animal path is completely and utterly USELESS when isolated as the animal path has 0 abilities whatsoever other than the rinnegan summons. Jiraiya had the roads deal with the summons as he ran his ass off to stall time so he could enter SM. When he killed the animal path, none of the summons around which left the animal path with literally nothing to do.

It’s like giving Konohamaru the 9 tails to summon, but then finding Konohamaru alone isolated from the 9 tails and killing him by trapping him in a genjutsu so he can’t move and ending him. This doesn’t mean you kill a 9 tailed level threat. You simply killed a defenceless child separated from his source of power???

The animal path WITH HER SUMMONS is deadly and up in the ranks of the Pains. But without her summons basically beside her she is by far the most useless pain as she has nothing else in her Arsenal.

Fair enough when it comes to Ma and Pa being his summons I’ll agree with that.

Also Jiraiya never knew who Pain was hence why he was his “mortal enemy”…. Dude this is pretty ridiculous. Pain when talking to Naruto admits how much he loved and respected Jiraiya as a shinobi and made it clear that Jiraiya was stupid and his ideology was unrealistic which was why he killed him. He didn’t kill Jiraiya out of hate or spite. Simply because Jiraiya was the main one opposing him in terms of what he wanted to accomplish. I ask you this. If your mom was a murderer and you never knew and you were the main detective on the case. Even if you despise the killer in her, you’re still unconsciously biased toward her in terms of how you view her. This has actually been proven psychologically and is called “affinity bias”. You are unconsciously bias toward those who are familiar/remedial to you. And let’s be honest. Jiraiya raised and taught Nagato all he knew for 3 years. His feelings toward Jiraiya never changed. His views changed and as a result, Jiraiya was in his way of achievement his idea of a “perfect world” so he had to remove him from the equation.

But based on your answers you still agree/admit that Jiraiya got blitzed by the Asura path and that the second the Deva path and Asura path entered the fight, he got annhilated.

And if you are also “willing to accept the Orochimaru is equal or stronger than Jiraiya”, let’s just low ball it and state he is equal. Itachi moments from death and almost completely blind no diffed the strongest version of Orochimaru (stated in the data books). How can you still claim Jiraiya beats him LOL

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 23, 2021)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yep, everybody knows you're incorrect
> 
> @ThirdRidoku @Lyren @Code @Isaiah13000 Thoughts?





Capa13 said:


> Did Jiraiya only destroy/kill the 3 weakest Pains (I’ll give you a tip, the answer is yes)


no. he fought animal , preta, and human, the first of which has hax summons, the latter of which can nullify ninjutsu, the third of which can casually rip out his soul.


Capa13 said:


> Did Jiraiya only kill those Pains because of a genjutsu that he had Ma and Pa cast and that he couldn’t cast himself?


summons are part of one's power. kuchiyose is a tech most ninja know and it has a chakra cost.



Capa13 said:


> Did the second/3rd strongest Pain blitz rip his arm off while he was in SM??


not an outright blitz as Jiraiya was a bit distracted and had to turn around first. but sure it can count as a partial blitz,



Capa13 said:


> Did Pain ever have to use the Deva Path (strongest path of pain) to engage/damage Jiraiya?


jman still survived for a bit against all 6  with only one arm and managed to get one more kill before kicking the bucket.

Reactions: Winner 1


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