# Current Kakashi vs Tsunade



## Grimsley (May 11, 2014)

Location: Kages vs Madara
Distance: Same distance the kages were from maddie
Restrictions: obviously kakashi doesn't have sharingan and neither of them have knowledge on their opponents abilities.


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## Katou (May 11, 2014)

Trollkage takes this 
she has better Martial Prowess . .
and better punching power ( Obviously ) 

Kakashi is helpless without the Sharingan . . it gives him Precognition  . .which he doesn't have now 

Tsunade High diffs it . . since Kakashi is a Pain to deal with . .


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## Cognitios (May 11, 2014)

No sharingan percog means that Kakashi gets killed in one hit.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 11, 2014)

No knowledge of her abilities? Kakashi dies, quite horribly.

He'll engage her in close combat immediately, and she'll end up killing him. In the off-chance that he sends in a clone to deal with her and see's that she has super strength, then he's still only going to be delaying the inevitable. I doubt she needs to activate Byakugou, or summon Katsuyu. She can just use smashy smashy tactics and dodge whatever ninjutsu he throws at her if needs be.​​


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## Blu-ray (May 11, 2014)

Kakashi dies. Hell can he even do anything to Katsuyu? As if the woman even needs it. Byakugo means he can't do shit to damage her, and without Sharingan, he can't dance around her and avoid her hits forever. He dies to a punch.


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## Ersa (May 11, 2014)

Kakashi legitimately could get soloed by Katsuyu 

Lack of Kamui and MS genjutsu means two of his greatest weapons against her are gone. Raiden Chains are nice and all but they waste a tonne of stamina and cutting up a massive slug is going to be taxing. Not to mention he has to deal with Tsunade who can comfortably match him in CQC since he lacks the massive advantage Sharingan gives.


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## IchLiebe (May 11, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No knowledge of her abilities? Kakashi dies, quite horribly.
> 
> He'll engage her in close combat immediately, and she'll end up killing him. In the off-chance that he sends in a clone to deal with her and see's that she has super strength, then he's still only going to be delaying the inevitable. I doubt she needs to activate Byakugou, or summon Katsuyu. She can just use smashy smashy tactics and dodge whatever ninjutsu he throws at her if needs be.​​



The off-chance that he sends in a clone? You mean to tell me that you don't think he will against a person he has no knowledge on. Even though he does it against literally every person he's ever fought. The second she hits RKB it's GG. She won't summon Katsuyu, no reason to on one small target. She isn't dodging everything. Her tactics are to tank. Kakashi's still faster, and is just better in general. The second Kakashi sees her smash something, it's over for her. This is the smartest shinobi with the most diverse ninjutsu in the manga. No way in hell does she ever get close to connecting.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 11, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The off-chance that he sends in a clone? You mean to tell me that you don't think he will against a person he has no knowledge on. *Even though he does it against literally every person he's ever fought.*



This is blatantly incorrect. Against Zabuza, he doesn't send in a Kage Bunshin in his initial skirmish with him, nor does he do so against any of those fodder Otogakure shinobi that attacked Konoha. He doesn't send in Kage Bunshin against Hidan or Kakuzu when he first faces against them (despite his limited knowledge) and he doesn't send in Kage Bunshin in his initial attacks against Pein either (who he, again, has very limited knowledge of). He may send in Kage Bunshin at _some point_, assuming he survives long enough, but near the match's starting point? Nope.



> The second she hits RKB it's GG.



Lol. No it isn't. This is the same woman that survived for several hours without a functioning spine or lower body, and who survived rapid transportation inside a lightning bolt, and you mean to tell me a generic raiton will GG her? Get out of here.



> She isn't dodging everything.



She doesn't need to. She can probably dodge the majority of what he dishes at her, though. 



> Her tactics are to tank.



Only whenever she can't dodge or when she can't connect any hits at all.



> Kakashi's still faster,



He is, but not enough to make much of a difference.



> and is just better in general.



No, he isn't.



> The second Kakashi sees her smash something, it's over for her.



Uhh . . care to elaborate on that? How is he going to end her? With a kunai? With a linear Raikiri that he can't control properly? With a ninjutsu that she can dodge or tank? 



> This is the smartest shinobi with the most diverse ninjutsu in the manga.



And even _then_ he can't pull off a win. How embarrassing.



> No way in hell does she ever get close to connecting.



Considering that she's better than him in taijutsu, has huge AoE in her attacks, and can dodge a lot of his attacks and use playing-possum tactics to ambush him, I think it's really quite clear that she can land hits on him.​​


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## IchLiebe (May 11, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> This is blatantly incorrect. Against Zabuza, he doesn't send in a Kage Bunshin in his initial skirmish with him, nor does he do so against any of those fodder Otogakure shinobi that attacked Konoha. He doesn't send in Kage Bunshin against Hidan or Kakuzu when he first faces again them (despite his limited knowledge) and he doesn't send in Kage Bunshin in his initial attacks against Pein either (who he, again, has very limited knowledge of). He may send in Kage Bunshin at _some point_, assuming he survives long enough, but near the match's starting point? Nope.​




Against Zabuza he did. Or are you talking about the second time, when he had full knowledge?

Village was being attacked, he didn't need to use chakra on fodders. He also had Might Gai 2 inches away from him.

He thought he killed Kakuzu and Hidan was going to die. Their plan was damn near perfect, except they didn't see both of them being near immortal. Against Pain, he did have some knowledge. The second he used a jutsu Kakashi switched to a bunshin to get more. 

Here he has absolutely no knowledge, no plan, and no backup. It's obvious he would go for a bunshin feint.



> Lol. No it isn't. This is the same woman that survived for several hours without a functioning spine or lower body, and who survived rapid transportation inside a lightning bolt, and you mean to tell me a little electric shock will GG her? Get out of here.



RKB+Raikiri or RKB+Rasengan combo.



> He is, but enough to make much of a difference.



When her whole thing is "land one punch", it kinda is.



> No, he isn't.



Yep.0



> Uhh . . care to elaborate on that? How is he going to end her? With a kunai? With a linear Raikiri that he can't control properly? With a ninjutsu that she can dodge or tank?



If you think he can't come up with a plan to hit her with rasengan, or raikiri after he see's her destructive ability then you are HIGHLY underestimating Kakashi. This is the guy who beat the 5 second interval.



> And even _then_ he can't pull off a win. How embarrassing.


​
Not only does he pull off a win, it's mid dif.


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## Hijack (May 11, 2014)

Most likely, Kakashi uses a Raiton Bunshin to distract her. Most likely, she'll try to hit him with all costs, but Kakashi is not slow at all. Without his Sharingan, he stopped Mangekyō Sasuke in his tracks when trying to kill Sakura. While the Raiton Bunshin has lost in terms of CQC and paralyzed Tsunade, Kakashi can use sneak attack with Rasengan to hit her on spot. She'll attempt to recover, but a simple Raikiri would cut her head off.

This is probably a mid-difficulty match.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 11, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Against Zabuza he did. Or are you talking about the second time, when he had full knowledge?



No, I'm talking about the first time when he didn't. The only clone Kakashi used was a Mizu Bunshin which he copied off Zabuza with the sharingan, he didn't send in a bunshin to fight him to discover his abilities. 

In relooking a that fight, though, Kakashi did have some basic knowledge on Zabuza. [1]



> Village was being attacked, he didn't need to use chakra on fodders. He also had Might Gai 2 inches away from him.



He had no knowledge on them, how did he know they were fodders? They could have all been elite jonin on par with him, meaning Might Gai and all of his comrades would have had their hands full. 



> He thought he killed Kakuzu and Hidan was going to die. Their plan was damn near perfect, except they didn't see both of them being near immortal.



This is irrelevant. He still didn't use a Kage Bunshin at the match's starting point to figure out their abilities. 



> Against Pain, he did have some knowledge. The second he used a jutsu Kakashi switched to a bunshin to get more.



In his initial counter with Pein, he didn't use any bunshins. 



> Here he has absolutely no knowledge, no plan, and no backup. It's obvious he would go for a bunshin feint.



Kakashi didn't know he would receive any backup in his fight against Pein, and he had no knowledge on those fodder Otogakure ninja, or on Obito (then Tobi) during his first encounter with him . 



> RKB+Raikiri or RKB+Rasengan combo.





He doesn't even ICly use Rasengan, and how the hell does he even kill her with it anyway? It will inflict pitiful levels of damage to her. Without a sharingan he can't even use Raikiri properly either, its linear and he'll be moving so quickly that he won't be able to do anything whenever she reaches out to punch his as he pierces her. 




> When her whole thing is "land one punch", it kinda is.



This doesn't even make any logical sense. 



> If you think he can't come up with a plan to hit her with rasengan, or raikiri after he see's her destructive ability then you are HIGHLY underestimating Kakashi. This is the guy who beat the 5 second interval.



No, on the contrary, you're highly under-estimating Tsunade. You're all but ignoring her durability, resilience, and CQC prowess, which render everything Kakashi can do null. 



> Not only does he pull off a win, it's mid dif.



​​


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## Kai (May 11, 2014)

Without the Sharingan, Kakashi will be extremely hard pressed to land a Raikiri on someone of Tsunade's caliber ? and even if he did, he gets the Ei treatment against Sasuke.

Tsunade heals the damage in her chest with ease, grabs him arm even tighter than Haku did, and one shots Kakashi.

Tsunade mid-difficulty.


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## tkpirate (May 11, 2014)

Tsunade will win with mid or high difficulty.


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## richard lewis (May 11, 2014)

Kakashi is being massively underestimated here. Kakashi is considerably faster than tsunade going both by feats and by DB stats, loosing the sharingan wont make kakashi any slower and tsunade speed isn't at such a lvl where precog is necessary to keep up IMO. Kabuto was dodging tsunade's punches no problem kakashi should be able to do so even easier. kakashi will quickly realize how strong tsunade is and use an RKB to stun here and then take her out with raikiri, if she has byakugo active then things could get tricky, she could potentially take kakashi out with a counter attack b/c he will be thinking she's dead. If kakashi however avoids the counter attack I see him out maneuvering her and the second raikiri will simply decapitate her.

I'm 60/40 in kakashi's favor


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 11, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Kakashi is being massively underestimated here. Kakashi is considerably faster than tsunade going both by feats and by DB stats, loosing the sharingan wont make kakashi any slower and tsunade speed isn't at such a lvl where precog is necessary to keep up IMO. Kabuto was dodging tsunade's punches no problem kakashi should be able to do so even easier. kakashi will quickly realize how strong tsunade is and use an RKB to stun here and then take her out with raikiri, if she has byakugo active then things could get tricky, she could potentially take kakashi out with a counter attack b/c he will be thinking she's dead. If kakashi however avoids the counter attack I see him out maneuvering her and the second raikiri will simply decapitate her.
> 
> I'm 60/40 in kakashi's favor



Kakashi is a tier above her in speed, going by the Databook. That's it.

By feats he is certainly faster than her, but then a lot of Kakashi's speed feats were aided by the fact that he had sharingan precognition, which he no longer has. Tsunade has some good speed feats too, making her comparable or even faster than other characters who have been hailed for their speed, such as _Base Ei_ or _airborne-Onoki_. The gap between Tsunade and Kakashi is definitely noticeable but it isn't huge.

Kabuto was dodging part I Tsunade's blows. Part I Tsunade is slower than Part II Tsunade. Kakashi rarely aims for the head with Raikiri, and he also can't use Raikiri properly without the sharingan. 

Tsunade's taijutsu is better than Kakashi's, and in close range her ability to tear up the earth with a footstomp or a finger poke fucks him up. 

All of your points are incorrect.​​


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## richard lewis (May 11, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakashi is a tier above her in speed, going by the Databook. That's it.​




A full tier is pretty significant IMO



Godaime Tsunade said:


> By feats he is certainly faster than her, but then a lot of Kakashi's speed feats were aided by the fact that he had sharingan precognition, which he no longer has.



so we agree kakashi is faster
Sharingan precog has nothing to do with speed but more so reactions, we saw when sasuke fought rock lee that precog is useless unless you have the physical speed/agility to back it up.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade has some good speed feats too, making her comparable or even faster than other characters who have been hailed for their speed, such as _Base Ei_ or _airborne-Onoki_. The gap between Tsunade and Kakashi is definitely noticeable but it isn't huge.



I agree the gap isn't huge but it is enough for kakashi to avoid her punches



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kabuto was dodging part I Tsunade's blows. Part I Tsunade is slower than Part II Tsunade. Kakashi rarely aims for the head with Raikiri, and he also can't use Raikiri properly without the sharingan.



Sasuke has used raikiri w/o the sharingan just fine. the only reason you need the sharingan is if you charge in linearly, w/o it you can see counter attacks when moving at high speed. However kakashi can use raikiri with his kunai to make them sharper, he can also use raiton hound or his raikiri chain. It can be used just fine with or w/o the sharingan.

I'm also aware that kakashi typically doesn't aim for the head which is why I said tsunade will most likely survive his initial raikiri attack and could kill him with a surprise attack since he will be thinking she's dead and won't see it coming. I said that the fight would depend upon whether kakashi can avoid that counter attack.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade's taijutsu is better than Kakashi's, and in close range her ability to tear up the earth with a footstomp or a finger poke fucks him up.



This is why kakashi uses clones. tsunade punches an RKB, gets stunned, kakashi goes in for the kill.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> All of your points are incorrect.


​
how so?


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## Veracity (May 11, 2014)

Tsunade trashes Kakashi easily. Without his previous Sharingan, he has 0 chance in CQC, and doesn't even wield a speed advantage.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 11, 2014)

Kakashi cuts her head off.

Also tsunade is not a super master of CQC. She got took to the bank by Kabuto who not only cashed a big ass check he was holding back as to not kill her.


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## Bonly (May 11, 2014)

No Sharingan means I side in favor of Tsunade as of now. He won't be able to use his speed to it's fullest potential and he may have lost the advantage when it comes to CQC. With a lack of a good ranged jutsu capable of killing her, his only choice is either a kunai/Raikiri kunai/Raikiri to her head which his chances have gotten lower now. Though depending on what happens in the next few weeks Kakashi may have this.


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## Tarot (May 11, 2014)

I don't see how Kakashi wins this without sharingan, without it, he can't use most of his chidori variants or fight as well in cqc. Lightning clones won't paralyze Tsunade since she can counter with her own raiton. Besides that, if he has no intel then he'll go for a close range and get quickly killed by Tsunade's punch.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 11, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Kakashi cuts her head off.
> 
> Also tsunade is not a super master of CQC. She got took to the bank by Kabuto who not only cashed a big ass check he was holding back as to not kill her.



Why are you using Rusty Tsunade's part I feats to justify why a part II Kakashi would beat her? Tsunade's part II feats are infinitely more impressive.



richard lewis said:


> A full tier is pretty significant IMO



Yes, but not so much whenever your opponent can often circumvent that speed advantage with a greater or similar taijutsu stat. Orochimaru is a full 1.5 ahead of Hiruzen in speed, for example, but Hiruzen is 1.5 ahead of Orochimaru in taijutsu and so was able to disarm him in a close combat exchange.

Asuma is a full tier ahead of speed than Hidan, but Hidan equals him in taijutsu with a 4.5, allowing him to keep up with the majority of his attacks. (also, Hidan has the same speed stat as Tsunade, but his taijutsu is a 0.5 worse than her's is, but he still manages to keep up with Kakashi in CQC for a while).

Part I Kabuto is faster than Part I Tsunade, but with greater skill in taijutsu she is still able to react to and dodge all of his attacks (it's only when she tackles herself into Kabuto and immobilises herself with his Chakra Scalpels by accident that she starts to take hits). 

Etc.



> so we agree kakashi is faster
> Sharingan precog has nothing to do with speed but more so reactions, we saw when sasuke fought rock lee that precog is useless unless you have the physical speed/agility to back it up.



Which is exactly what I meant. _Reaction speed_. Precognition helps to slow down a foe's attack. Kakashi does have high movement speed but it will be his reactions combined with his taijutsu prowess that allow him to dodge Tsunade's blows effectively. I should add, whenever Tsunade misses a strike she is potentially going to strike the earth by accident (as she often does) causing huge collateral damage to occur, which Kakashi will also have to dodge lest he be pelted with debris or lose his balance.

She can keep him on the defence constantly. 




> I agree the gap isn't huge but it is enough for kakashi to avoid her punches



As per my above points, I don't think he can do this for very long.



> Sasuke has used raikiri w/o the sharingan just fine. the only reason you need the sharingan is if you charge in linearly, w/o it you can see counter attacks when moving at high speed. However kakashi can use raikiri with his kunai to make them sharper, he can also use raiton hound or his raikiri chain. It can be used just fine with or w/o the sharingan.



Sasuke doesn't use Raikiri though, he uses Chidori, which is a lower ranked technique and apparently easier to control. Kakashi doesn't use Raikiri on his kunai either, he just imbues it with raiton-chakra, which is  different. The Raikiri chain he used in unison with a clone was used while his sharingan was active, and again, he doesn't have that here. 

You confuse other raiton techniques with Raikiri, they aren't the same.



> I'm also aware that kakashi typically doesn't aim for the head which is why I said tsunade will most likely survive his initial raikiri attack and could kill him with a surprise attack since he will be thinking she's dead and won't see it coming. I said that the fight would depend upon whether kakashi can avoid that counter attack.



Personally I don't think he'll be able to hit her head. The only time shinobi ever effectively cut their foes head off is whenever they are leagues above them in speed, to the point that their foe cannot even register their movements or move at all whatsoever. That really isn't the case here. The best Kakashi can do is slice her neck open or something with a grazing raiton-kunai that she fails to completely dodge, but that won't kill her or even slow her down at all, so it's ineffective. 



> This is why kakashi uses clones. tsunade punches an RKB, gets stunned, kakashi goes in for the kill.



Kakashi doesn't use Raikiri Bunshins from a battle's outset though. Even if Tsunade does punch one, why would she be stunned when she has tanked far worse damage without being immobilised? Her spine was severed for instance, which should have paralysed her, but it didn't. She was transported to a battlefield inside an actual lightning bolt, but that didn't stun her either.​​


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## Cord (May 11, 2014)

Gondaime Tsunade is going ham. 

But yeah, no Sharingan, no Mangekyo pretty much guarantees Tsunade's win and the no knowledge stipulation hurts Kakashi more than his opponent. He may be the kind of combatant who takes caution before rushing in against an enemy whom he doesn't have any knowledge of, but it doesn't mean he could consistently spar with a renowned Taijutsu master without taking any damage himself, let alone, come out completely unscathed. Not without the Sharingan that's supposed to give him every edge in the close quarters combat. He'll eventually get hit while Tsunade regenerates from every damage she'll possibly acquire.


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## richard lewis (May 11, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Why are you using Rusty Tsunade's part I feats to justify why a part II Kakashi would beat her? Tsunade's part II feats are infinitely more impressive.​




It still shows the fact that she is lacking in speed, she hasn't gotten that much faster since part 1.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yes, but not so much whenever your opponent can often circumvent that speed advantage with a greater or similar taijutsu stat. Orochimaru is a full 1.5 ahead of Hiruzen in speed, for example, but Hiruzen is 1.5 ahead of Orochimaru in taijutsu and so was able to disarm him in a close combat exchange.



Hiruzen only overpowered orochimaru b/c of enma, b4 summoning enma the guy was getting raped



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Asuma is a full tier ahead of speed than Hidan, but Hidan equals him in taijutsu with a 4.5, allowing him to keep up with the majority of his attacks. (also, Hidan has the same speed stat as Tsunade, but his taijutsu is a 0.5 worse than her's is, but he still manages to keep up with Kakashi in CQC for a while).



Kakashi and hidan use totally different fighting styles, if you charge in and fight someone head on "espacially when you can tank all attacks like hidan can" speed becomes less relevant sure. However kakashi is going to fight smart, he'll use KB's, diversion, and considering the location there is a lot of ruble/rocks for him to hide behind and use guerrilla tactics. All of that gives him an advantage over tsunade.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Part I Kabuto is faster than Part I Tsunade, but with greater skill in taijutsu she is still able to react to and dodge all of his attacks (it's only when she tackles herself into Kabuto and immobilises herself with his Chakra Scalpels by accident that she starts to take hits).



Eh.. I'd say he's faster than current tsunade as well, at best she is on par




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Which is exactly what I meant. _Reaction speed_. Precognition helps to slow down a foe's attack. Kakashi does have high movement speed but it will be his reactions combined with his taijutsu prowess that allow him to dodge Tsunade's blows effectively. I should add, whenever Tsunade misses a strike she is potentially going to strike the earth by accident (as she often does) causing huge collateral damage to occur, which Kakashi will also have to dodge lest he be pelted with debris or lose his balance.
> 
> She can keep him on the defence constantly.



Plenty of characters have shown great reactions w/o the sharingan, Ei, Minato, Gai, Bee, ect. Kakashi even w/o his sharingan should be comparable to these guys. I don't see why he can't keep his distance from tsunade and fight use guerrilla tactics like I explained above.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> As per my above points, I don't think he can do this for very long.



He can if he fights using bushins, keeps his distance hide behind rocks and other debris on the battlefield. He can use RKB's to stun tsunade and create opening to take her out.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sasuke doesn't use Raikiri though, he uses Chidori, which is a lower ranked technique and apparently easier to control. Kakashi doesn't use Raikiri on his kunai either, he just imbues it with raiton-chakra, which is  different. The Raikiri chain he used in unison with a clone was used while his sharingan was active, and again, he doesn't have that here.
> 
> You confuse other raiton techniques with Raikiri, they aren't the same.



I was under the impression that raikiri and chidori are the same, but that's irrelivent b/c kakashi created chidori and raikiri so there's no reason why he can't just use chidori here since apparently that version doesn't require sharingan. 
binding jutsu gai explicitly stated that kakashi used raikiri with his kunai"see 3rd panel" and his kunai was more than sharp enough to impale obito so it should be able to do the same to tsunade"except aim for the head and not the chest".

Also the only reason kakashi needs sharingan with raikiri is b/c of the speed he moves at when he uses the jutsu. If kakahsi moves at a slightly slower speed he should be able to use the jutsu just fine w/o the sharingan. So there is no reason why he can't use raikiri chain here.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Personally I don't think he'll be able to hit her head. The only time shinobi ever effectively cut their foes head off is whenever they are leagues above them in speed, to the point that their foe cannot even register their movements or move at all whatsoever. That really isn't the case here. The best Kakashi can do is slice her neck open or something with a grazing raiton-kunai that she fails to completely dodge, but that won't kill her or even slow her down at all, so it's ineffective.



He can decapitate her if he stuns here with an RKB first.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakashi doesn't use Raikiri Bunshins from a battle's outset though. Even if Tsunade does punch one, why would she be stunned when she has tanked far worse damage without being immobilised? Her spine was severed for instance, which should have paralysed her, but it didn't. She was transported to a battlefield inside an actual lightning bolt, but that didn't stun her either.


​
Kakashi used an RKB against pain the first chance he got, tsunade in't any more durable than asura path was and RKB stuned him long enough for choji to smush his ass "I'n this case it will be a raikiri to the head".


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## Master Sephiroth (May 11, 2014)

With no intel, it's probably Tsunade's victory. With intel, Kakashi can turn it around however.


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## trance (May 11, 2014)

Raiton bunshin feint. Raikiri her head off. GG.


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## Jagger (May 11, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Kakashi cuts her head off.
> 
> Also tsunade is not a super master of CQC. She got took to the bank by Kabuto who not only cashed a big ass check he was holding back as to not kill her.


Tsunade is a monster at it, though. Not only that, but Kabuto landed a hit against a Tsunade that was probably rusty and hadn't fought seriously in years considering she spend most of her time gambling and drinking.

You can't really compare that Tsunade to the current one that was keeping 5 Susano'O at bay and knocking them out (not destroying them, though). Kakashi lacks the Sharingan which removes the advantage he had over her concerning CQC, he will have a more harder time landing a sucessfull attack and even if he does, she can still punch him.

Don't forget Tsunade is a tank.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 11, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Raiton bunshin feint. Raikiri her head off. GG.


A combo he's never used and is _incapable_ of using now that Kakashi _lost his Sharingan._

Honestly do people hate Tsunade this much?


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## Veracity (May 11, 2014)

Exactly . The Tsunade hate is ridiculous. And people actually say she is wanked ? That's  cute.


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## Veracity (May 11, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> It still shows the fact that she is lacking in speed, she hasn't gotten that much faster since part 1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No it doesn't ? Using part 1 feats is ridiculous. Especially considering the feat you actually decide to use is a rusty and exhausted part 1 Tsuande against a soldier pill enhanced Kabuto using doton skills. And even then, Tsuande still managed to one panel him. Get that shit out of here.

And as soon as Tsuande got serious, she was capable of blitzing Oro, who could fight on par with 4k Naruto. Sharingan less Kakashi gets his shit stomped .

Current Kakashi and Tsuande are about equal on speed when Kakashi loses his Sharingan which he depends on. The difference is Tsuande is vastly superior in CQC. 

Why the hell would Kakashi have reactions on par with bee, Minato, or Ay without the Sharingan  that's just ridiculous. He barely has reactions on those level with the MS.

RKB will not do anything to a tank like Tsuande who can tank Yasaka with no damage and can still fully move with her spine snapped. It will not paralyze someone as resilient as Tsuande. 

Tsunade is as durable as Asura path. Except she is far more resilient, has more pain tolerance, and has top tiered regeneration . RKB ain't shit on Tsuande.


----------



## Meliwen (May 11, 2014)

Tsunade wins. It's her durability especially that does Kakashi in. Kakashi puts up a good fight though.


----------



## Tarot (May 11, 2014)

Seriously, Tsunade was out of practice for around 20 years and had a hang over, and Kabuto was hopped up on steroids. That fight was hardly a fair way to judge Tsunade in prime condtion.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 11, 2014)

Kakashi trump tools makes him mid-high kage level..without them...tsunade is taking this one. With his sharingan he still was a bit below the big boys when it came to reaction/speed but now he is "normalized" giving tsunade the chance she needs to hit him.

Rakiri through the chest and a haymaker lunge is probably how this ends worst case scenario. Katsuyu is not really needed guys.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (May 12, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> It still shows the fact that she is lacking in speed, she hasn't gotten that much faster since part 1.



By Part II she can attack in unison with Base Ei - who is able to blitz Muu and is cited by Zetsu as being particularly quick. She can also outpace an airborne Onoki in speed, who Akatsuchi regards as being " too fast " to keep up with. Tsunade also jumps at and repels all five of Madara's fireballs in quick succession before any of her Kage peers are able to do anything.

She has definitely gotten faster.



> Hiruzen only overpowered orochimaru b/c of enma, b4 summoning enma the guy was getting raped



Orochimaru never engaged Hiruzen in a taijutsu match before that, so no, he wasn't " getting raped ". Hiruzen also used Enma as a staff ie. a close combat weapon, it still counts as _taijutsu_.



> Kakashi and hidan use totally different fighting styles, if you charge in and fight someone head on "espacially when you can tank all attacks like hidan can" speed becomes less relevant sure. However kakashi is going to fight smart, he'll use KB's, diversion, and considering the location there is a lot of ruble/rocks for him to hide behind and use guerrilla tactics. All of that gives him an advantage over tsunade.



In many ways Tsunade has a similar style to Hidan. Both are trained evasion users, and both have the power to take incredible amounts of damage without dying or even being phased by the damage. The only difference is that Tsunade is better than Hidan in taijutsu, having a 5 as opposed to a 4.5. In addition, Kakashi wasn't doing any of those things you mentioned when sparring against Hidan [1] [2], so there's no guarantee he's going to do them repeatedly against Tsunade.

I doubt Kakashi is going to last long enough in taijutsu for any of those things to actually become effective either.



> Eh.. I'd say he's faster than current tsunade as well, at best she is on par



Then you'd be wrong, because Part II Kabuto sans-Orochmaru DNA has shown little-no impressive speed feats at all, and certainly not any ones more impressive than those Tsunade has shown.




> Plenty of characters have shown great reactions w/o the sharingan, Ei, Minato, Gai, Bee, ect. Kakashi even w/o his sharingan should be comparable to these guys. I don't see why he can't keep his distance from tsunade and fight use guerrilla tactics like I explained above.



Sharinganless Kakashi's reactions are not comparable to any of these shinobi - Ei (with the raiton shroud) and Minato were hailed as having the fastest reactions of any character in the manga up until recently, and Gai can activate the gates and even in base has a higher speed stat in the databook than Kakashi does. Killer Bee can effortlessly dodge MS Sasuke and easily keep up with V1 Ei's movements in close range too. 

Also, you act like Kakashi will hide for the majority of the match throwing in bunshins and smoke bombs and that Tsunade will be none the wiser. Tsunade isn't borderline retarded and will catch on that he's throwing diversions at her pretty quickly - if he's hiding underground then she starts pulling a Sakura and tearing up the earth around her with monstrous punches and dropkicks that reveal his location, forcing him to fight her up close. 



> I was under the impression that raikiri and chidori are the same, but that's irrelivent b/c kakashi created chidori and raikiri so there's no reason why he can't just use chidori here since apparently that version doesn't require sharingan.
> [2] gai explicitly stated that kakashi used raikiri with his kunai"see 3rd panel" and his kunai was more than sharp enough to impale obito so it should be able to do the same to tsunade"except aim for the head and not the chest".



Again, Kakashi had his sharingan active here, which he no longer has. Also, just because Kakashi cut through a rock with Raikiri, it doesn't mean he's fast enough to cut her head off with one.



> Also the only reason kakashi needs sharingan with raikiri is b/c of the speed he moves at when he uses the jutsu. If kakahsi moves at a slightly slower speed he should be able to use the jutsu just fine w/o the sharingan. So there is no reason why he can't use raikiri chain here.



If he moves at a slower pace then Tsunade's going to have no problem dodging it, so he'll just be wasting his much needed chakra.




> He can decapitate her if he stuns here with an RKB first.



No he isn't, and why would she ever be stunned by a jutsu of that level?



> Kakashi used an RKB against pain the first chance he got, tsunade in't any more durable than asura path was and RKB stuned him long enough for choji to smush his ass "I'n this case it will be a raikiri to the head".



No he didn't. He fought with Deva path for quite a while without using any bunshins, and it was only whenever Asura Path started to fight him also that Kakashi used that tactic, and he only used it _once_. Also, Asura path does have good durability but Tsunade has better. She took a Yasaka Magatama at point blank range without sustaining any visible damage and she was teleported at insane speeds inside a lightning bolt that should have torn her to shreds (and only sustained minor cuts and slashes in the process). In terms of blunt force damage she's been smacked around by Madara's giant Susano'o and pelted with the collateral damage of one of Perfect Susano'o's sword slashes, and she took very little damage.​​


----------



## richard lewis (May 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> No it doesn't ? Using part 1 feats is ridiculous. Especially considering the feat you actually decide to use is a rusty and exhausted part 1 Tsuande against a soldier pill enhanced Kabuto using doton skills. And even then, Tsuande still managed to one panel him. Get that shit out of here.
> 
> And as soon as Tsuande got serious, she was capable of blitzing Oro, who could fight on par with 4k Naruto. Sharingan less Kakashi gets his shit stomped .



I forgot about kabuto using solder pills I'll give you that, but tsunade never one paneled him, he was pretty much winning the whole fight up until jiraiya arrived at which point him and oro started using summons.

And Tsunade never once blitzed oro, I recall it being the other way around, he blitzed her with kusangai. And btw prior to leaving the village she was still traing and creating new jutsu, An unstable force, lacking intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha!

*The Tailed Beast are but slaves to those with blessed eyes*. An unstable force, lacking intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha!

*The Tailed Beast are but slaves to those with blessed eyes*. Oro stated he had never seen her healing jutsu b4.

BTW oro had no arms against tsunade, he did when he fought naruto, big difference.



Likes boss said:


> Current Kakashi and Tsuande are about equal on speed when Kakashi loses his Sharingan which he depends on. The difference is Tsuande is vastly superior in CQC.



Would have to disagree here, personally I think the boost the sharingan gives is being blown out of proportion here. It's impossible to say until we get new feats from kakshi so for now we will just have to agree to disagree.




Likes boss said:


> Why the hell would Kakashi have reactions on par with bee, Minato, or Ay without the Sharingan  that's just ridiculous. He barely has reactions on those level with the MS.



kakashi reaction where a good bit superior to bee and Ei "hence why he could warp the gedo mazo's arm b4 even madara could respond" and comparable to minato. Again I think his reaction are largely due to kakashi's talent as a ninja as opposed to his sharingan. A I said b4 It's impossible to say until we get new feats from kakshi so for now we will just have to agree to disagree.



Likes boss said:


> RKB will not do anything to a tank like Tsuande who can tank Yasaka with no damage and can still fully move with her spine snapped. It will not paralyze someone as resilient as Tsuande.
> 
> Tsunade is as durable as Asura path. Except she is far more resilient, has more pain tolerance, and has top tiered regeneration . RKB ain't shit on Tsuande.



RKB is like a taser basically, even the strongest most durable person in the world is going down for at least a couple seconds if the get hit with a taser, the same applies to tsunade and RKB. Kakashi only needs about a 2 second window to put a raikiri through here skull.


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## richard lewis (May 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> By Part II she can attack in unison with Base Ei - who is able to blitz Muu and is cited by Zetsu as being particularly quick. She can also outpace an airborne Onoki in speed, who Akatsuchi regards as being " too fast " to keep up with. Tsunade also jumps at and repels all five of Madara's fireballs in quick succession before any of her Kage peers are able to do anything.
> 
> She has definitely gotten faster.​




Attacking in unison with base Ei doesn't mean she is as fast as base Ei, IMO. KCM naruto and sasuke attacked obito and the juubi in unison several times, does that mean sasuke is as fast as naruto? No, naruto simply slowed down his movement to fight along side sasuke, he wasn't using his flash shushin.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Orochimaru never engaged Hiruzen in a taijutsu match before that, so no, he wasn't " getting raped ". Hiruzen also used Enma as a staff ie. a close combat weapon, it still counts as _taijutsu_.



A staff that can sprout arms and break people's neck is not just a regular weapon lol, it should be counted as hiruzen's taijutsu ability b/c it isn't. and I meant hiruzen was getting raped by the edo kages.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> In many ways Tsunade has a similar style to Hidan. Both are trained evasion users, and both have the power to take incredible amounts of damage without dying or even being phased by the damage. The only difference is that Tsunade is better than Hidan in taijutsu, having a 5 as opposed to a 4.5. In addition, Kakashi wasn't doing any of those things you mentioned when sparring against Hidan [1] [2], so there's no guarantee he's going to do them repeatedly against Tsunade.
> 
> I doubt Kakashi is going to last long enough in taijutsu for any of those things to actually become effective either.



Hidan doesn't have the physical strength that tsunade has, kakashi was able to block virtually all of hidan's attacks, he won't be able to do so aginst tsunade. It wouldn't make any sense for kakashi to fight her head on like he did against hidan. Also kakashi already had full knowledge on hidan, where as he kons nothing about tsunade, so he will be even more likely to use clones here to try and figure out her abilities. and BTW kakashi still used bushin against hidan as well "don't feel like search for the scan but you can look it up if you don't believe me, choji and ino got caught by kakuzu and kakashi had to use a bushin to slip past hidan and save them" .

It should also be noted that kakashi was fighting kakuzu as well



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Then you'd be wrong, because Part II Kabuto sans-Orochmaru DNA has shown little-no impressive speed feats at all, and certainly not any ones more impressive than those Tsunade has shown.



I guess well just have to agree to disagree here



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sharinganless Kakashi's reactions are not comparable to any of these shinobi - Ei (with the raiton shroud) and Minato were hailed as having the fastest reactions of any character in the manga up until recently, and Gai can activate the gates and even in base has a higher speed stat in the databook than Kakashi does. Killer Bee can effortlessly dodge MS Sasuke and easily keep up with V1 Ei's movements in close range too.



kakashi's reactions where a good bit superior to bee and Ei "hence why he could warp the gedo mazo's arm b4 even madara could respond" and comparable to minato. Again I think his reaction are largely due to kakashi's talent as a ninja as opposed to his sharingan. A I said b4 It's impossible to say until we get new feats from kakshi so for now we will just have to agree to disagree.

Also when did bee dodge any of sasuke's MS jutsu?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Also, you act like Kakashi will hide for the majority of the match throwing in bunshins and smoke bombs and that Tsunade will be none the wiser. Tsunade isn't borderline retarded and will catch on that he's throwing diversions at her pretty quickly - if he's hiding underground then she starts pulling a Sakura and tearing up the earth around her with monstrous punches and dropkicks that reveal his location, forcing him to fight her up close.



Madara summoned a freaking jungle on the battle field along with mountain sized meteors that created massive amounts of debris everywhere that sort of terrain favors kakashi heavily. He can constantly keep tabs on tsunade via scent while she has no way of locating him. and it's not like tsunade can plough the whole freaking forest down, she's gunna be forced to fight kakashi's way.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Again, Kakashi had his sharingan active here, which he no longer has. Also, just because Kakashi cut through a rock with Raikiri, it doesn't mean he's fast enough to cut her head off with one.



You act like it's impossible for kakashi to use raikiri in any way w/o the sharingan which is just ridiculous.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> If he moves at a slower pace then Tsunade's going to have no problem dodging it, so he'll just be wasting his much needed chakra



not if he uses an RKB to stun her first



Godaime Tsunade said:


> No he isn't, and why would she ever be stunned by a jutsu of that level?



She's never fought a raiton user b4 so this is a silly question, but RKB is derived from KB so I'd imagine it's an A rank jutsu.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> No he didn't. He fought with Deva path for quite a while without using any bunshins, and it was only whenever Asura Path started to fight him also that Kakashi used that tactic, and he only used it _once_. Also, Asura path does have good durability but Tsunade has better. She took a Yasaka Magatama at point blank range without sustaining any visible damage and she was teleported at insane speeds inside a lightning bolt that should have torn her to shreds (and only sustained minor cuts and slashes in the process). In terms of blunt force damage she's been smacked around by Madara's giant Susano'o and pelted with the collateral damage of one of Perfect Susano'o's sword slashes, and she took very little damage.


​
PS sword slash didn't hit any of the kage directly, if it had they would have been turned into roadkill IMO. Tsunade still needed to heal herself after getting teleprted so yea it definitely damaged her, I don't recall her geting hit with Yasaka Magatama, but that's irrelivent b/c a piercing attack like raikiri is still going to decapitate her.

Kakashi set up the RKB well b4 asura path arrived when deva ST'd him to the ruble here [2]
and you can see him clibing out of the ruble here [2]


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## Veracity (May 12, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> I forgot about kabuto using solder pills I'll give you that, but tsunade never one paneled him, he was pretty much winning the whole fight up until jiraiya arrived at which point him and oro started using summons.
> 
> And Tsunade never once blitzed oro, I recall it being the other way around, he blitzed her with kusangai. And btw prior to leaving the village she was still traing and creating new jutsu, Ei Ei Oro stated he had never seen her healing jutsu b4.
> 
> ...



She one paneled him here, with her intercostal lungs severed: Ei

And would have killed him if it wasn't for her phobia. But still, that was a Pre Exhausted, Rusty and un confident Tsuande, and you seem to be comparing it a Current - inshape Tsuande. 

How did Oro blitz Tsunade ? You mean the panel where Tsunade jumps in front of his sword ? Lol hats not a blitz.

And Oro gets blitzed here; Ei

Mind you when she did such, she did such from a from a floored position and with her mid section in pieces 

What does her not having a healing Justu have to do with anything ?

When he fought Naruto all he could do is throw punches and use a single Justu( R gates) . His speed was the exact same as with Tsunade, if ANYTHING, had Tsuande fought the Oro that fought 4k Naruto she would have had a field day. 

Knowing Kishi , he probabaly will have to make Kakashi ridiculously fast to scale to fighting a Juubi powered Madara.

And please do list some speed feats that Kakashi had that is superior to blitzing Oro.

Of course Madara can't physically do anything when all Kakashi has to do is look at the Gedo, but I suppose that was a pretty good feat. Sucks that he doesn't have the Sharingan anymore though.

a taser is completely different in the Naruto world and like I said would still not work against Tsuande. You can be as durable as you want but having your spine snapped means you are immediately paralyzed.  You can be as durable as ever, but having your intercostal lungs snapped means you can breathe at all..... Tsuande isn't just resilient, and has a ridiculous amount of pain tolerance. She can move through RKB just fine.


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## Richard Lionheart (May 12, 2014)

To be honest I don't see how Kakashi is winning this.
Tsunade only needs physical contact with him to end this game.Furthermore Kakashi can't counter Katsuyu.


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## Mithos (May 12, 2014)

Kakashi doesn't stand a chance. 

Without the Sharingan he loses his precognition and the ability to effectively use Raikiri and its variants, his signature techniques. With less movement speed (he can't move as fast or he won't be able to react to a counter-attack) and less reaction speed and less skill in taijutsu than Tsunade, Kakashi cannot engage Tsunade in CQC without taking a hit sooner or later - and it'll probably be sooner. 

His regular ninjutsu can be dodged or tanked, and the AoE from Tsunade's strikes will counter doton and force Kakashi into unfavorable positions where she can hit him. The AoE damage can also be used to destroy clones. If Kakashi does manage to land anything significant on her she can activate Souzou Saisei. Byakugou probably isn't even needed here. 

Katsuyu isn't needed but if Tsunade decides to summon her, there is literally nothing Kakashi can do. 

Add in that he has no knowledge of her and he probably engages her and dies quickly.


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## trance (May 12, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A combo he's never used and is _incapable_ of using now that Kakashi _lost his Sharingan._
> 
> Honestly do people hate Tsunade this much?



Yea, because this thread wasn't made because of Kakashi hate? 



Likes boss said:


> Exactly . The Tsunade hate is ridiculous. *And people actually say she is wanked* ? That's  cute.



No, she's overrated to hell.


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## CheshireAnbu (May 12, 2014)

*Tsunade would win* but don't forget Kakashi usually uses high quality clones to go in first and find out the enemies techniques. Though if Kakashi never had sharingan in the first place BUT was like the white fang I think Kakashi might win. Though right now I'd say tsunade mid-high diff.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 12, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> Gondaime Tsunade is going ham.
> 
> But yeah, no Sharingan, no Mangekyo pretty much guarantees Tsunade's win and the no knowledge stipulation hurts Kakashi more than his opponent. He may be the kind of combatant who takes caution before rushing in against an enemy whom he doesn't have any knowledge of, but it doesn't mean he could consistently spar with a renowned Taijutsu master without taking any damage himself, let alone, come out completely unscathed. Not without the Sharingan that's supposed to give him every edge in the close quarters combat. He'll eventually get hit while Tsunade regenerates from every damage she'll possibly acquire.



Of course I am. Have you _seen_ the responses in this thread? Have you _seen_ them, Cordial? 



richard lewis said:


> Attacking in unison with base Ei doesn't mean she is as fast as base Ei, IMO. KCM naruto and sasuke attacked obito and the juubi in unison several times, does that mean sasuke is as fast as naruto? No, naruto simply slowed down his movement to fight along side sasuke, he wasn't using his flash shushin.



I'd like a scan to this KCM Naruto/Sasuke thing, so that can I see it for myself, but even if it is valid, just because Sasuke and KCM Naruto attacking in unison was inconsistent, it doesn't mean that this feat is inconsistent too. There is no reason to assume Tsunade is slow or that she shouldn't be capable of keeping up with swift foes like base Ei.

Also, KCM Naruto ' slowing down ' for Sasuke seems pretty retarded when they're fighting against an opponent that could kill them quite easily. They couldn't afford to use anything short of their full power, so why would they slow down?



> A staff that can sprout arms and break people's neck is not just a regular weapon lol, it should be counted as hiruzen's taijutsu ability b/c it isn't. and I meant hiruzen was getting raped by the edo kages.



So what? Hiruzen didn't need Enma's sprouting limbs to disarm Orochimaru, he used nothing but his _own skill in wielding the staff_, hence, it was a testament of his taijutsu ability. He also managed to grab Orochimaru in close range despite the latter's best efforts to injure his teacher [1] (bottom left panel)



> Hidan doesn't have the physical strength that tsunade has, kakashi was able to block virtually all of hidan's attacks, he won't be able to do so aginst tsunade. It wouldn't make any sense for kakashi to fight her head on like he did against hidan. Also kakashi already had full knowledge on hidan, where as he kons nothing about tsunade, so he will be even more likely to use clones here to try and figure out her abilities.



What? Your argument makes no sense.  Kakashi did not have full knowledge on Hidan, certainly, he knew nothing of Hidan's taijutsu ability and reflexes. Secondly, Kakashi has no knowledge of Tsunade, so he doesn't know of her super strength and therefore he doesn't know that it wouldn't be a good idea to fight her up close/that it would be impossible to block her strikes. 



> and BTW kakashi still used bushin against hidan as well "don't feel like search for the scan but you can look it up if you don't believe me, choji and ino got caught by kakuzu and kakashi had to use a bushin to slip past hidan and save them" .



No he didn't, that only happened in the anime.



> It should also be noted that kakashi was fighting kakuzu as well



And he didn't use bunshins on him either.



> I guess well just have to agree to disagree here



Honestly, I'll just take it that you're conceding here, because you have literally no evidence, and given that pre-Orochimaru absorption Kabuto has virtually no feats, there isn't any evidence that exists to support your _opinion_ anyway.



> kakashi's reactions where a good bit superior to bee and Ei "hence why he could warp the gedo mazo's arm b4 even madara could respond" and comparable to minato. *Again I think his reaction are largely due to kakashi's talent as a ninja as opposed to his sharingan*. A I said b4 It's impossible to say until we get new feats from kakshi so for now we will just have to agree to disagree.



That is a baseless assumption. Anyway, Madara couldn't have done anything about Kakashi Kamuing Gedou Mazou - Kamui is almost instantaneous, it wasn't Kakashi's high reaction speed that made that attack hard to counter, it was the speed of his jutsu.



> Also when did bee dodge any of sasuke's MS jutsu?



I didn't say anything about his _jutsu_. Bee was reacting to MS Sasuke's attacks in CQC pretty effortlessly, though._[2]_ [3]



> Madara summoned a freaking jungle on the battle field along with mountain sized meteors that created massive amounts of debris everywhere that sort of terrain favors kakashi heavily. He can constantly keep tabs on tsunade via scent while she has no way of locating him. and it's not like tsunade can plough the whole freaking forest down, she's gunna be forced to fight kakashi's way.



Again, you're acting like Kakashi fights by hiding and having his clones do all the work, which is never how he has fought, ever. He did that once, against Preta Path, and he didn't spend the entire battle hidden. In fact, he wasn't even hidden for a prolonged period of time at all. 



> You act like it's impossible for kakashi to use raikiri in any way w/o the sharingan which is just ridiculous.



I haven't insinuated that, I've merely pointed out that using Raikiri is meaningless whenever his only way of using it is by slowing himself down to a speed that he can actually keep up with, because Tsunade can dodge/counter it even more easily than she could before.




> not if he uses an RKB to stun her first





Again, a raiton of that level will never stun someone as resilient as Tsunade.



> She's never fought a raiton user b4 so this is a silly question, but RKB is derived from KB so I'd imagine it's an A rank jutsu.



She was teleported inside a lightning bolt and had her spine cut in two, and wasn't paralysed. How many times must I say this for you to get that into your head? A generic raiton will not stun her, ever.



> PS sword slash didn't hit any of the kage directly, if it had they would have been turned into roadkill IMO.



Which is why I said the _collateral_ damage of the sword slash, ie. the aftermath of one of it's blows, which tore the earth in two and sent gigantic blocks of debris significantly larger than the Gokage pelting at them. 



> Tsunade still needed to heal herself after getting teleprted so yea it definitely damaged her



Mabui noted that her technique would tear the normal shinobi to shreds - was Tsunade torn to shreds? No. She just received cuts and slashes. Tsunade even says herself that the damage she received wasn't very threatening. Evidently that is a testament of her durability.



> I don't recall her geting hit with Yasaka Magatama,



Pay closer attention then. [4] 



> but that's irrelivent b/c a piercing attack like raikiri is still going to decapitate her.



Unfortunately, it's user is nowhere near fast enough to do so.



> Kakashi set up the RKB well b4 asura path arrived when deva ST'd him to the ruble here [4]
> and you can see him clibing out of the ruble here [4]



There is no evidence to suggest that that's when he prepared his RKB. The fact that he was desperately trying to use a chain to escape Pein's Bansho Ten'in suggests that he didn't use that RKB until just before he was impaled.​​


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## Hasan (May 12, 2014)

Kakashi may not win, but has anyone from Tsunade's side tried to establish his mindset without the Sharingan? I don't believe you can cite the fights he fought with the Sharingan and apply it in this match-up. Do you honestly believe that he is going to engage in CQC knowing he no longer has the advantage that Sharingan once granted?


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 12, 2014)

He is still fast and skilled in taijutsu, so yes, I do. Without knowledge of Tsunade he's not going to know to avoid direct combat.​​


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## richard lewis (May 12, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> She one paneled him here, with her intercostal lungs severed: Ei
> 
> And would have killed him if it wasn't for her phobia. But still, that was a Pre Exhausted, Rusty and un confident Tsuande, and you seem to be comparing it a Current - inshape Tsuande.
> 
> ...



Sigh... I'm just going to wait until next chapter when kakashi gets more feats, right now we can't seem to agree on anything and probably won't until then.

BTW people seem to think I'm claiming kakashi will win, I'm not, I said in my first post that it's 50/50.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Of course I am. Have you _seen_ the responses in this thread? Have you _seen_ them, Cordial?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't feel like searching for scans but the two had to move in unison when there where using FRS/enton combo attacks, not sure which chapter it was when they tagged obito with it.

Regardless I'd say kakashi is comparable to V1 Ei in terms of speed so tsunade being as fast as base Ei still makes her slower.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> So what? Hiruzen didn't need Enma's sprouting limbs to disarm Orochimaru, he used nothing but his _own skill in wielding the staff_, hence, it was a testament of his taijutsu ability.



Nowhere in that scan did hiruzen disarm oro



Godaime Tsunade said:


> He also managed to grab Orochimaru in close range despite the latter's best efforts to injure his teacher [1] (bottom left panel)



 LOL this was the bases of my point, look at the scan you posted. Enma"the staff" sprouted arms and grabbed oro, not hiruzen himself. Anyone who has the enma staff could catch people off guard like that when the staff can sprout arms and grab you out of nowhere, I don't see how the feat can be attributed to hiruzen.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> What? Your argument makes no sense.  Kakashi did not have full knowledge on Hidan, certainly, he knew nothing of Hidan's taijutsu ability and reflexes. Secondly, Kakashi has no knowledge of Tsunade, so he doesn't know of her super strength and therefore he doesn't know that it wouldn't be a good idea to fight her up close/that it would be impossible to block her strikes.



LOL, he did have full knowledge. or do you think that shikamaru wouldn't have described hidan's abilities to kakashi b4 they set out on the mission? He knew that hidan was superior to asuma in taijutsu, he knew that hidan was immortal, and he knew about hidans ritual, so yea I'd say that basically full knowledge.

I'm aware kakshi has no knowledge here which is why he would first send in a clone to get a feel for tsunade's abilities.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> No he didn't, that only happened in the anime.



hehe... I'f thats the case my bad, I got the anime/manga mixed up.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Honestly, I'll just take it that you're conceding here, because you have literally no evidence, and given that pre-Orochimaru absorption Kabuto has virtually no feats, there isn't any evidence that exists to support your _opinion_ anyway.



Nope, I just haven't seen any feats from tsunade to suggest she's any faster than you standard elite jounin which is right round kabuto's lvl of speed.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> That is a baseless assumption. Anyway, Madara couldn't have done anything about Kakashi Kamuing Gedou Mazou - Kamui is almost instantaneous, it wasn't Kakashi's high reaction speed that made that attack hard to counter, it was the speed of his jutsu.



I agree it is a bit baseless, but it's also baseless to assume the contrary. which is why I think this thread is premature, sharingan less kakashi has no feats, so to assume that he would be slower is baseless when we've seen shinobi w/o the sharingan move faster than most MS users. 

However the sharingan can only react as fast as the user, we saw this when sasuke fought rock lee as I pointed out b4. The MS is similar to FTG, by that I mean it can only be activated as fast as the user can react. If you gave some fodder ninja kakashi's MS they would've been blitzed and killed by sasuke susanoo arrow for example, b/c even with the MS if they can't react they can't warp the arrow. This is why I said kakashi's MS feats can be attributed to his reaction time, which he should retain with or without the sharingan.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I didn't say anything about his _jutsu_. Bee was reacting to MS Sasuke's attacks in CQC pretty effortlessly, though._[2]_ [3]



Sasuke didn't even have the MS activated when he fought bee's 7 sword style he was only using the regular 3 tomoe. he didn't activate his MS until bee used is V1 cloak, so IDK what your trying to prove here.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Again, you're acting like Kakashi fights by hiding and having his clones do all the work, which is never how he has fought, ever. He did that once, against Preta Path, and he didn't spend the entire battle hidden. In fact, he wasn't even hidden for a prolonged period of time at all.



kakashi used bushins against pain, he used them against zabuza, he used them against obito's neo pain. I don't see why he wouldn't use bushins here? [3] choza even commented on how kakashi's "Full of clever tricks as usual" and that "his habits haven't changed" which implies that when ever him and choza fought together kakashi was use similar tactics. That's how kakashi fights.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I haven't insinuated that, I've merely pointed out that using Raikiri is meaningless whenever his only way of using it is by slowing himself down to a speed that he can actually keep up with, because Tsunade can dodge/counter it even more easily than she could before.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, a raiton of that level will never stun someone as resilient as Tsunade.



Well I think an RKB should stun tsunade just fine, you don't..... I guess this is another one of those things we will just have to agree to disagree on. 




Godaime Tsunade said:


> She was teleported inside a lightning bolt and had her spine cut in two, and wasn't paralysed. How many times must I say this for you to get that into your head? A generic raiton will not stun her, ever.



Well the teleportation jutsu was never stated to cause paralysis so IDK what that has to do with anything. She clearly healed her spin, you can't walk around with a broken spine lol. Also after getting impaled she just laid there for a few seconds leading madara to think she was dead, IDK if that was on purpose or if she was waiting for her body to heal up a bit. My point is all kakashi needs to do is stun he for a few seconds to put a raikiri through her skull, but like I said we will just have to agree to disagree here.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Which is why I said the _collateral_ damage of the sword slash, ie. the aftermath of one of it's blows, which tore the earth in two and sent gigantic blocks of debris significantly larger than the Gokage pelting at them.



Mei doesn't have any significant durability feats, neither does gaara. So the damage couldn't have been that bad if those two where perfectly fine afterwards.

Mabui noted that her technique would tear the normal shinobi to shreds - was Tsunade torn to shreds? No. She just received cuts and slashes. Tsunade even says herself that the damage she received wasn't very threatening. Evidently that is a testament of her durability.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Pay closer attention then. [4]



no need to get snippy, lol



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Unfortunately, it's user is nowhere near fast enough to do so.



Kakashi snuke up on kakuzu and landed a raikiri on him b4 he even knew what happend. My whole argument here is that kakashi can use clones, to create an open for a suprise attack similar to the one against kakuzu​


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## richard lewis (May 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> There is no evidence to suggest that that's when he prepared his RKB. The fact that he was desperately trying to use a chain to escape Pein's Bansho Ten'in suggests that he didn't use that RKB until just before he was impaled.[/indent][/justify]



Well if kakashi manage to set up a bushin while both pain paths where looking right at him and he was being drawing in by BT then that's even more impressive. Regardless if pain could spot kakashi making a bushin even with their linked vision then I don't see how tsunade would.

I'm going to come back to this thread when the next chapter comes out after kakashi gets more feats, hopefully this will be a little more of a clear debate then.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 12, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> I don't feel like searching for scans but the two had to move in unison when there where using FRS/enton combo attacks, not sure which chapter it was when they tagged obito with it.



You didn't refute anything else I said, so I assume you have conceded on this point.



> Regardless I'd say kakashi is comparable to V1 Ei in terms of speed so tsunade being as fast as base Ei still makes her slower.



In movement speed, yes. I was never saying Tsunade was as fast as Kakashi though, just that she was about as fast, if not faster than Base Ei and that the difference between the two isn't very big (which you agreed to) and therefore that his speed advantage alone isn't enough to make a difference.



> Nowhere in that scan did hiruzen disarm oro



Check the scan I linked you to afterwards. Herp.



> LOL this was the bases of my point, look at the scan you posted. Enma"the staff" sprouted arms and grabbed oro, not hiruzen himself. Anyone who has the enma staff could catch people off guard like that when the staff can sprout arms and grab you out of nowhere, I don't see how the feat can be attributed to hiruzen.



Stop reading the scans I provide you with half-assedly, Hiruzen grabbed Orochimaru, not Enma. That is made _even clearer_ on the following page.



> LOL, he did have full knowledge. or do you think that shikamaru wouldn't have described hidan's abilities to kakashi b4 they set out on the mission? He knew that hidan was superior to asuma in taijutsu, he knew that hidan was immortal, and he knew about hidans ritual, so yea I'd say that basically full knowledge.



Mid-way through fighting Kakuzu and Hidan, Kakashi says " These two are strong . . especially the masked one " which shows that he is actually physically shocked at their abilities and therefore it is implicit that he did _not_ have full knowledge on them. Hidan is not superior to Asuma in taijutsu either - he has a 3.5 while Asuma had a 4.5.



> I'm aware kakshi has no knowledge here which is why he would first send in a clone to get a feel for tsunade's abilities.



Except that he has done this on very few of his opponents that he has no knowledge on, which we've already discussed and you have failed to refute.




> Nope, I just haven't seen any feats from tsunade to suggest she's any faster than you standard elite jounin which is right round kabuto's lvl of speed.



I have literally just provided you with speed feats to suggest that she is far above the standard Jounin, and you have all but ignored them. Kabuto is almost featless speedwise, and yes, while their speed is probably around the same level given thatthey both a 3.5 in the databook, you have to remember that a 3.5 is far above average, and that being only a tier above someone does not mean you can blitz them every time you go to attack, especially not whenever they are significantly better at taijutsu.



> I agree it is a bit baseless, but it's also baseless to assume the contrary. which is why I think this thread is premature, sharingan less kakashi has no feats, so to assume that he would be slower is baseless when we've seen shinobi w/o the sharingan move faster than most MS users.



A bit baseless? It is _completely_ baseless, and no, it is not baseless to assume the contrary, because the sharingan improves reaction speed, and therefore without it we can quite naturally assume that one's reaction speed will be worse. Kakashi has only ever fought foes worthy of mention with his sharingan active, and so yes, it is therefore impossible to say just how quick his reactions are without the sharingan, but they will obviously be slower than they were with the sharingan - that is common sense, so my assertion was not baseless.



> However the sharingan can only react as fast as the user, we saw this when sasuke fought rock lee as I pointed out b4. The MS is similar to FTG, by that I mean it can only be activated as fast as the user can react. If you gave some fodder ninja kakashi's MS they would've been blitzed and killed by sasuke susanoo arrow for example, b/c even with the MS if they can't react they can't warp the arrow. This is why I said kakashi's MS feats can be attributed to his reaction time, which he should retain with or without the sharingan.



The sharingan slows the foes movements down, meaning even with slower reactions you can see an attack coming. Moving out of the way of the attack is dependant on _movement_ speed, not reaction speed. Kakashi's movement speed could keep up with his sharingan-reactions and vice versa, but that is no longer the case now that his sharingan is gone.



> Sasuke didn't even have the MS activated when he fought bee's 7 sword style he was only using the regular 3 tomoe. he didn't activate his MS until bee used is V1 cloak, so IDK what your trying to prove here.



Having the MS activated doesn't magically make your movements faster, it only increases your reactions. Killer Bee would therefore have been able to block and react to all of Sasuke's moves whether his MS was activated or not.



> kakashi used bushins against pain, he used them against zabuza, he used them against obito's neo pain. I don't see why he wouldn't use bushins here? _even clearer_ choza even commented on how kakashi's "Full of clever tricks as usual" and that "his habits haven't changed" which implies that when ever him and choza fought together kakashi was use similar tactics. That's how kakashi fights.



But he never did so at the very outset of the match, which is what you're implying. Yes, he may use bunshins, but not the minute the match begins.



> Well I think an RKB should stun tsunade just fine, you don't..... I guess this is another one of those things we will just have to agree to disagree on.



You mean, this is another thing you cannot refute 




> Well the teleportation jutsu was never stated to cause paralysis so IDK what that has to do with anything. She clearly healed her spin, you can't walk around with a broken spine lol. Also after getting impaled she just laid there for a few seconds leading madara to think she was dead, IDK if that was on purpose or if she was waiting for her body to heal up a bit. My point is all kakashi needs to do is stun he for a few seconds to put a raikiri through her skull, but like I said we will just have to agree to disagree here.



It is lightning. It should quite naturally stun you when it fries your body. Kakashi's Raiton Bunshin was never said to stun foes either but you seem to have attributed it that feat based on the sole fact it is a lightning jutsu, yet you refuse to do the same with Mabui's technique. 



> Mei doesn't have any significant durability feats, neither does gaara. So the damage couldn't have been that bad if those two where perfectly fine afterwards.



Mei and Gaara got smacked around by giant Susano'o clones and could still stand and perform jutsu. Their durability isn't that bad. 




> no need to get snippy, lol



Concession warmly accepted 



> Kakashi snuke up on kakuzu and landed a raikiri on him b4 he even knew what happend. My whole argument here is that kakashi can use clones, to create an open for a suprise attack similar to the one against kakuzu



Again, _with_ the sharingan active. Also, Tsunade was able to hear Orochimaru's heartbeat from a few feet away, chances are she'll detect Kakashi coming, even from behind. [2]



richard lewis said:


> Well if kakashi manage to set up a bushin while both pain paths where looking right at him and he was being drawing in by BT then that's even more impressive. Regardless if pain could spot kakashi making a bushin even with their linked vision then I don't see how tsunade would.



Many shinobi have performed Kawarimi off-panel without their opponent seeing, even ones who are slower than Kakashi, like Orochimaru, or base Naruto. It's not really that impressive.



> I'm going to come back to this thread when the next chapter comes out after kakashi gets more feats, hopefully this will be a little more of a clear debate then.



It is already very clear, but sure, whatever - until next time.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 12, 2014)

> It still shows the fact that she is lacking in speed, she hasn't gotten that much faster since part 1.



This implies PI Kabuto could keep speed with the Gokage while fighting Madara.


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## Hasan (May 12, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He is still fast and skilled in taijutsu, so yes, I do. Without knowledge of Tsunade he's not going to know to avoid direct combat.​​



Why not use Raijū Hashiri no jutsu or Suiton: Suiryūdan or even throw some shuriken? We are assuming that one thing that gives him edge in close quarters is no longer there, and he's just going to waltz in there recklessly?

Now I am not saying that he is going to avoid taijutsu altogether, but your interpretation on how the fight will proceed is way too out of character for Kakashi — with or without the Sharingan. Even against Tendō, he created a mud wall first before attempting decapitation; he observed Kakuzu for a while before stabbing him.

Kakashi is not going to engage in close quarters until he knows what Tsunade is capable of. After then, whether he wins or loses, that's another issue. I would agree with you, if this was Kakashi from the gaiden chapters. I mean, people up there are saying that he can't even use his signature jutsu effectively. . . He did not lose his intelligence along with the Sharingan. 

Two other points on richard lewis-san's behalf:



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Again, _with_ the sharingan active. Also, Tsunade was able to hear Orochimaru's heartbeat from a few feet away, chances are she'll detect Kakashi coming, even from behind. [2]​​



Sharingan only allows him to overcome the tunnel-vision — has no impact on his physical speed, or I missed something? Kakuzu got struck by the jutsu that announces to the would-be victim that it's coming to hit you – he failed to notice.



> Many shinobi have performed Kawarimi off-panel without their opponent seeing, even ones who are slower than Kakashi, like Orochimaru, or base Naruto. It's not really that impressive.​​



The Kakashi who walked out of debris first was the bunshin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 12, 2014)

Kakashi fans know this is a no win, right?

-If Kakashi can't do anything without his sharingan in the next few chapters, then it means that he's only competive at that level because of his magic eyeball.  

-If he fights pretty much on the same level without his sharingan, then it means that the huge advantage of precognitos and bullet time and advanced chakra discernment feeding and analyzing massive amounts of information to him really wasn't all that great to begin with, and didn't offer him much if any of an edge at all.  That takes a lot of the sting out of the hype sharingan holders have over non-sharinganers in taijutsu match ups.


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## Veracity (May 12, 2014)

@Hasan 

Both said Ninjustu techniques can be dodged causally or run through.  She has the leg strength to do casually, and has the durability to tank both considering they are both weaker then Yasaka.


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## richard lewis (May 12, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kakashi fans know this is a no win, right?
> 
> -If Kakashi can't do anything without his sharingan in the next few chapters, then it means that he's only competive at that level because of his magic eyeball.
> 
> -If he fights pretty much on the same level without his sharingan, then it means that the huge advantage of precognitos and bullet time and advanced chakra discernment feeding and analyzing massive amounts of information to him really wasn't all that great to begin with, and didn't offer him much if any of an edge at all.  That takes a lot of the sting out of the hype sharingan holders have over non-sharinganers in taijutsu match ups.



Couldn't agree more 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> You didn't refute anything else I said, so I assume you have conceded on this point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be clear I am not conceding with you on any of your points, quite frankly I've just gotten tired of typing. This whole thread is rather pointless until kakashi gets more feats, were all just assuming here. There's no way to really know how strong he is at this point.


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## Csdabest (May 12, 2014)

Poor kakashi. Oh how you fallen. But i believe you are just crouching down so you can jump for the stars


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## Rocky (May 12, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> Dis so brutal wtf!



Brutality best displays the message I want to send, and it's easy to portray when arguing for Tsunade.


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## LostSelf (May 12, 2014)

I always based Kakashi's victory over her thanks to precog, mostly. Paired up with his Raiden Chain and his versatility, plus his tactical superiority and finese.

Without Sharingan precog, let alone with no knowledge, Kakashi is not attempting to cut her in half, even if Raiton Kage Bunshing works, wich i am certain it would, but i don't know how much time. He will stab her and will die, as simple as that.

It's a close fight between Non Kamui Kakashi vs Tsunade, this one is not that much.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2014)

I'm of the opinion even with the Sharingan, Kakashi's arsenal lacks the oomph needed to take out Tsunade. Only with Kamui he can win, and even then if Tsunade plays her cards right she can win. He's just ill equipped to fight her due to her regen, durability, superior taijutsu and boss summon.


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## Hero (May 14, 2014)

Leave it to Godaime Tsunade to drag everyone in this thread


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## Rocky (May 14, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> What happens if the clone is an RKB? she'll be paralyzed giving kakashi an opportunity to take her out.



If I may ask, why is Kakashi creating a Raiton Kage Bunshin, which presumably takes a good deal of chakra, on an opponent he knows nothing about?

Not that it matters. If it temporarily stuns her, Kakashi's just going to stab her. Then she rips out his arm and...well you know the rest.



> I don't see why he would require a sharingan to set up a plan to tag tsunade with raikiri?



Because Minato Sensei told him not to use it without the Sharingan for a reason. It's easier for the opponent to counter-attack him.

If she's paralyzed, I suppose it shouldn't matter... but she wins, whether she is stabbed by Raikiri or not.



> I agree tsunade could take kakashi out from an attack he's not expecting thinking she's dead, this fight is gunna revolve around whether or not he can determine tsunade's abilities b4 she surprise attacks him.



No. 

He stabs her in the heart, she grabs his arm, rips it off, and beats him to death with it. Then she activates Byakugo and heals off any injuries sustained. There's no need to play dead. He isn't going anywhere with his arm lodged inside her.



> Even if tsunade win's she isn't stomping lol



It's a brutal stomp.


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## Veracity (May 14, 2014)

Tsunade cannot be stunned by a RKB. It lacks the feats to supercede a severed spinal cord, which she fought in perfect condition just fine with.


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## richard lewis (May 15, 2014)

The more I think about it you guys are right. Kakashi can't win this w/o knowledge..... byakugo is too haxxed

both sides should be given at least some knowledge to make this a little more even,


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 15, 2014)

Kakashi gets stomped. He literally has nothing capable of putting Tsunade down without his sharingan.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 15, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> The more I think about it you guys are right. Kakashi can't win this w/o knowledge..... byakugo is too haxxed
> 
> both sides should be given at least some knowledge to make this a little more even,



Even with knowledge Kakashi dies a horrible death. Without knowledge Byakugou Tsunade dumps him, with knowledge Byakugou Tsunade _and Katsuyu_ dump him.

Kakashi needs Kamui to win.​​


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## richard lewis (May 15, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Even with knowledge Kakashi dies a horrible death. Without knowledge Byakugou Tsunade dumps him, with knowledge Byakugou Tsunade _and Katsuyu_ dump him.
> 
> Kakashi needs Kamui to win.​​



I might make a thread on this to see what people think, I think the location is going to play a big role in the fight. If the fight takes place in amegakura or a similar city location kakashi should be able to beat her especially if he has full knowledge on her abilities. In an open field though he would loose for sure.


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## Santoryu (May 16, 2014)

Don't be silly, Kakashi doesn't need Kamui to win, that's absurd; the regular Sharingan would more than suffice, He'd see she's focusing a tremendous amount of energy into her fists, and even if he didn't, he's intelligent enough to know that she has freakish strength, once that's established, Kakashi will try to do what he attempted against the Asura path. expect she won't evade it since she doesn't have a Rinnegan.

If V2 Jins (with a Sharingan/Rinnegan) were having trouble with an exhausted Kakashi, Tsunade sure as hell isn't doing much better. And keep in mind I'm talking about Kakashi with his Sharingan.


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## Magicbullet (May 16, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Even with knowledge Kakashi dies a horrible death. Without knowledge Byakugou Tsunade dumps him, with knowledge Byakugou Tsunade _and Katsuyu_ dump him.
> 
> Kakashi needs Kamui to win.​​



This here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 16, 2014)

Tsunade ends up snorting coke from Kakashi's ass crack. In other words she makes him her bitch.


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## Ryuzaki (May 20, 2014)

Well, we would have to design it differently, I mean sharingan-less Kakashi has 0 feats (aside from Gaiden). The biggest asterisk that could change the match-up is if Kakashi is able to access the jutsu he has attained throughout his life or not. If he can, then it becomes more heavily weighted towards Kakashi winning than Tsunade. As good as she is, she's still a taijutsu fighter and Kakashi has trained with the best taijutsu fighter and with access to all that ninjutsu he's going to have the advantage.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Well, we would have to design it differently, I mean sharingan-less Kakashi has 0 feats (aside from Gaiden). The biggest asterisk that could change the match-up is if Kakashi is able to access the jutsu he has attained throughout his life or not. If he can, then it becomes more heavily weighted towards Kakashi winning than Tsunade. As good as she is, she's still a taijutsu fighter and Kakashi has trained with the best taijutsu fighter and with access to all that ninjutsu he's going to have the advantage.


And Tsunade also has a boss summon Kakashi can't beat. And Tsunade also has regen which Kakashi can't get past. Tsunade's also one of the best Taijutsu fighters Konoha has (the only other person than Guy to have a 5 in the stat).


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 20, 2014)

Ryuzaki said:


> Well, we would have to design it differently, I mean sharingan-less Kakashi has 0 feats (aside from Gaiden). The biggest asterisk that could change the match-up is if Kakashi is able to access the jutsu he has attained throughout his life or not. If he can, then it becomes more heavily weighted towards Kakashi winning than Tsunade. As good as she is, she's still a taijutsu fighter and Kakashi has trained with the best taijutsu fighter and with access to all that ninjutsu he's going to have the advantage.





GG.​​


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 20, 2014)

Without Sharingan, Kakashi lost many perks that made his style deadly. 
He definitely dropped a few tiers. 

He's definitely not beating a Sannin.
Probably around Asuma/Hidan level... A bit stronger, maybe


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## Ryuzaki (May 20, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Tsunade also has a boss summon Kakashi can't beat. And Tsunade also has regen which Kakashi can't get past. Tsunade's also one of the best Taijutsu fighters Konoha has (the only other person than Guy to have a 5 in the stat).


I don't think she would summon her boss summon right off the bat to deal with a sharingan-less Kakashi. Her taijutsu is based on her strength feats and Kakashi was already faster than her to begin without the sharingan, I don't see this being much of a challenge for him.

But *if* Kakashi can use any of the jutsus he has seen with his sharingan with the added stamina boost of not having to worry about chakra drainage, he's going to be able to fight her on equal footing. Right off the bat, I can see him using several water-based/lightning based ninjutsus.  



Godaime Tsunade said:


> GG.​​


LOL


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## Veracity (May 20, 2014)

@Ryzuki. 

Can you list some feats for even MS Sharingan Kakashi to conclude that he is faster or that he can even compete with Tsuande in CQC?

Now take those feats and dumb them down, cause Kakashi now loses pre cog and proficiency with raiton jutsu. So Kakashis reactions, taijustu skill, and raiton go down all because of his Sharingan. Tsunade without the use of Katusyu stomps this Kakashi low difficulty. 

Suiton and raiton Justu get absolutely charged through considering he lacks any long ranged Justu superior to Yasaka.


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## OG Appachai (May 20, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> GG.​​


tsunade using jabs and and kicking technique like that? lol nah

but  yea that wouldn't happen to sharingan kakashi, but without sharingan yea tsunade wins.


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## gawsome (May 22, 2014)

No knowledge? Lol.

Assuming Kakashi even lands a chidori - his go to move for killing - without sharingan precog, Tsuande activates Genesis Rebirth and rips him in two.


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