# Hiruzen Vs Onoki



## Trojan (Jan 3, 2015)

Location: Onoki & Gaara Vs Edo Kage
knowledge: manga 
Distance: 60m
Mindset: IC
Conditions:  

Hiruzen is as when he was facing Kurama (55 y/o)
Onoki is at the age of 57. 
So, basically neither have much terrible with chakra, and can use their feats, and no back problems for onoki

Who wins?


----------



## ShadowReaper (Jan 3, 2015)

Hiruzen wins, because he has more hype.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 4, 2015)

I'd like to say Onoki mainly due to having a jutsu that could destroy all of Madara's Susanoo clones.


----------



## Sablés (Jan 4, 2015)

Hiruzen has more hype. Was also stated to be the strongest of a generation that included Onoki, IIRC.

Onoki has far better feats, naturally.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2015)

Apparently Hiruzen was stronger than Oonoki, and if his assessment of Juubito's ink blots was any indication, was intimately familiar with Oonoki's jinton and jutsu.  So I guess Hiruzen wins somehow?  Hiruzen did have some stamina issues already when he fought 9 tails.  There's a panel of him out of breath after he pushed the kyuubi outside the village.  Side note, Hiruzen is out of breath and the kyuubi is outside the village.  So I'll leave that hanging.  On panel feats, Oonoki decimates Hiruzen.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 4, 2015)

in term of hype, this a quote from NarutoBase. Hiruzen's fans always post it. :rofl



			
				Big Third said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



here's part 2 of that post if someone want to use it to prove Hiruzen's superiority. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JuicyG (Jan 4, 2015)

Hiruzen is SO underrated


----------



## Ghost (Jan 4, 2015)

Really can't see Onoki losing with the clear difference in feats.



JuicyG said:


> Hiruzen is SO underrated



He just sucks ass.


----------



## Patrick (Jan 4, 2015)

Hiruzen's hype puts him above Hashirama. Onoki shouldn't be that much of a problem going by that.

If we go by feats however it should be a closer match. I'd give Onoki the edge due to his Jinton though.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 4, 2015)

Not sure how Hiruzen hype is still valid in 2015. After all, it got invalid after Hashirama was made strongest Hokage

So Onoki solo.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 4, 2015)

lol no. The Kid is the strongest Hokage. Hashirama has never been called the strongest Hokage though as far as I remember.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2015)

Hiruzen wins.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol no. The Kid is the strongest Hokage. Hashirama was never been called the strongest Hokage though as far as I remember.



The Kid didn't exist back then 

Also its logic that Hashi is the strongest one:
-Broke Edo Tensei's control
-Is the only one to beat Madara
-Is called a God of Shinobi
-Was used for the Zetsu


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol no. The Kid is the strongest Hokage. Hashirama was never been called the strongest Hokage though as far as I remember.



That is the most insane, stupid, pointless comment i have *EVER* seen in my life. A guy, who read the manga, wrote something like that. That comment is beyond stupidity.

I personally think that Hussain is just trolling around. Anybody who read the manga knows Hiruzen is not the strongest Hokage - Hashirama is. But he wrote something like that. And he created many spite threads. 

Hussain should be BANNED.

Hiruzen has no feats to compete with Hashirama. And he was called the strongest only by Iruka. Thats all. 

HYPE AND PRAISE ARE NOT PROOFS OF SOMEONES POWER.



Hachibi said:


> The Kid didn't exist back then
> 
> Also its logic that Hashi is the strongest one:
> -Broke Edo Tensei's control
> ...



Even in latest Databook you can read that up to 4th Shinobi World War, there is no shinobi who could compete with Hashirama in terms of power. 


But, as i mentioned already, *Hussain is just trolling around*. And some people called him the best debater in this forum. 

LOL.


----------



## SusanooKakashiCanon (Jan 4, 2015)

Onoki can carry islands, and stop meteors.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Honestly based on feats oonoki takes it...but hiruzens hyped multiple times as the strongest of the gokages..of his time knowing kabutos knowledge on the shinobi world im inclined to agree with him..not to mention a young sarutobi was mentioned to have surpassed tobirama in talent and he considered himself stronger then tobirama


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Honestly based on feats oonoki takes it...but hiruzens hyped multiple times as the strongest of the gokages..of his time knowing kabutos knowledge on the shinobi world im inclined to agree with him..not to mention a young sarutobi was mentioned to have surpassed tobirama in talent and he considered himself stronger then tobirama



Hiruzen is faster and is more versitile with his techniques. Plus clones.


----------



## KyuubiFan (Jan 4, 2015)

Going by feats Onoki destroys Hiruzen pretty fast.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 4, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> The Kid didn't exist back then
> 
> Also its logic that Hashi is the strongest one:
> -Broke Edo Tensei's control
> ...



So, it's an opinion.  
though did not get the last point. 

OT: I agree with those who say that Onoki wins. 



StarWanderer said:


> That is the most insane, stupid, pointless comment i have *EVER* seen in my life. A guy, who read the manga, wrote something like that. That comment is beyond stupidity.
> 
> I personally think that Hussain is just trolling around. Anybody who read the manga knows Hiruzen is not the strongest Hokage - Hashirama is. But he wrote something like that. And he created many spite threads.
> 
> ...




honestly, seeing your butthurtness is always gold. :rofl


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So, it's an opinion.
> though did not get the last point.



Didn't know that Naruto did another time travel 

I mean by the last one that his cell boosted Zetsus form normal human level (since Kaguya and her sons were the only one to have chakra) to be able to somewhat hold their ground against Normal Chunin-Jonin.

The cell also boosted Madara to the point of having the Rinnegan and almost blitzing SM Naruto


----------



## Trojan (Jan 4, 2015)

I would argue that Minato's cells that made the Kid is greater than chunnin/jonin. 

Also, the Kid did not get god of shinobi's title, would you say that he is weaker than Hashirama and Hiruzen? 

lol, nvm, I think if we continue the topic will change. lol

I wonder of Hiruzen can dodge Onoki's jinton, since he is as fast as Hashirama and Tobirama's shunshin in his old age. So, I guess in his 50s, he should be a bit faster or something.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2015)

> honestly, seeing your butthurtness is always gold.



So you just trolled me?



Hussain said:


> I would argue that Minato's cells that made the Kid is greater than chunnin/jonin.
> 
> Also, the Kid did not get god of shinobi's title, would you say that he is weaker than Hashirama and Hiruzen?
> 
> ...



He is not as fast as Hashirama.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jan 4, 2015)

It was stated in the manga that Hiruzen was the strongest kage out of the gokage.
Hiruzen has in-depth knowledge of Onoki's jutsu and even knows how it works.
Hiruzen has access to all five elements.

Hiruzen wins this.
Logically.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jan 4, 2015)

Oonoki got better feats including actually destroying GuruGuru's Shinsenju while Hiruzen did no actual damage and Ooonki was tired after his fight with Madara.

Hiruzen got better hype. At least in part 1.

If they fought in manga I see Hiruzen winning as Kishi faps to hokages and won't let them lose to anyone but a FV candidate like Madara, Rinnegan Sasuke, Juubito or Kaguya. Feats wise though Oonoki wins with medium to high difficulty.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He is not as fast as Hashirama.



My bad, he is faster.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> My bad, he is faster.



My internet is too slow to watch that gif. You better give me his manga speed feats.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He is not as fast as Hashirama.



Depends if you're including Hiraishin or not.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 4, 2015)

When they arrived, it's in chapter 630, or 631 can't remember which one...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> When they arrived, it's in chapter 630, or 631 can't remember which one...



I am too lazy to find his feats there. Can you tell me what exactly has he done there? What happened? Or give me the exact page.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I would argue that Minato's cells that made the Kid is greater than chunnin/jonin.



Lolno. It's Kurama, Sage Mode and latter Rikudo boost that did that. Minato's cell aren't a factor compared to that.



> Also, the Kid did not get god of shinobi's title, would you say that he is weaker than Hashirama and Hiruzen?



Already said that Naruto didn't count (both him and Sasuke are the strongest alive)



> I wonder of Hiruzen can dodge Onoki's jinton, since he is as fast as Hashirama and Tobirama's shunshin in his old age. So, I guess in his 50s, he should be a bit faster or something.



Edo Hiruzen barely reacted to Mindless Juubito but he couldn't dodge him. So depending on the distance.


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2015)

Onoki drops an island on him


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 4, 2015)

Hiruzen wins. Onokis entire arsenal is countered by Hiruzen. Mid difficulty win for the professor.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 4, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> Hiruzen wins. Onokis entire arsenal is countered by Hiruzen. Mid difficulty win for the professor.



how does sarutobi counter a large scale jinton?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2015)

Edo Hiruzen's elemental jutsu really impressed me.

I like to think he'd beat Onoki and make good on his hype. 



sabre320 said:


> how does sarutobi counter a large scale jinton?



I don't think the Jinton used on Madara's clones is possible without Tsunade.


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> how does sarutobi counter a large scale jinton?



His biggest Jinton is the one he used versus Madara to kill the Mokuton. Its narrow and easily avoidable with kage bunshins. He can only chase one at a time.


----------



## Van Konzen (Jan 5, 2015)

Kishi won't be showing this panel if this two didn't had an encounter wayback..
they have been kage for like decades and their tenure was full of conflicts..

surviving a jinton means he was able to counter it mostlikely with his combo of 5 elements..
his deduction of Juubito's black balls composed of several elements gives us the idea Hiruzen knows well the elements in Oonoki's jinton..

his shunshin isnt sloppy either, dodging it isnt impossible.. 
jinton does have a significant casting time..

and my money goes to Hiruzen... mainly for the Kabuto statement..
that's one hell of a direct statement..
that's canon.. Kishi wrote that shit, take it or leave it..


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> When they arrived, it's in chapter 630, or 631 can't remember which one...



Does that prove anything? No it doesnt. Maybe his Shunshin is faster. Only maybe, because i dont think they were rasing there. But his own natural speed is not faster. Hashirama fought Madara on par. That puts him above Hiruzen in terms of speed.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 5, 2015)

How is fighting Madara puts him above anyone? 
that Iwa fodder in Kakashi Gaidan fought Minato, so he is faster than Hashirama and Madara? lol

the thing is, we saw them arriving at the exact same speed, and they were actually rushing to get to their ASAP.
So, yeah, they are as fast as each other.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2015)

onoki trolls...kishi statements are contradicted by himself for the lolz all the time. wont give them any credit whatsoever
unless we want to start agreeing that amaterasu is the most powerful ninjutsu!!!...this was stated by zetsu...

if u cant agree to that no reason to agree to iruka nonesense hype


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is fighting Madara puts him above anyone?
> that Iwa fodder in Kakashi Gaidan fought Minato, so he is faster than Hashirama and Madara? lol
> 
> the thing is, we saw them arriving at the exact same speed, and they were actually rushing to get to their ASAP.
> So, yeah, they are as fast as each other.



1. Minato is not faster than aither Hashirama, or Madara. Their feats are better. You want me to explain why? I can, if you want.

2. Edo Madara, whos physical traits are not as good as those of EMS alive Madara, reacted to prime V2 Raikage point blank with no problem. His mokuton clones were so fast they could tag V2 Raikage. And he dodged Gaara's sand that could react to V2 Raikage. Those speed feats are already above anything Hiruzen has shown. And Hashirama fought with Edo/alive Madara as his equal. At least in physical traits. That puts him in a very high speed class. Plus, he was outrunning TBB while fighting with Madara *without his Sage Mode*. 

3. Shunshin has nothing to do with speed and reactions. Its a technique. Travel speed has nothing to do with fighting speed. Olympic boxer will be faster in a fight than olympic runner. And we dont know why they arrived in such a manner. Hashirama could prepare his chakra for his techniques. Because of feats, it seems to be true that they were not in the race and that their arrival proves nothing at all in terms of their speed class. 

And Hiruzen was eating punches from Orochimaru's Edo Hashirama. Alive Hiruzen, i might add.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 5, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. Minato is not faster than aither Hashirama, or Madara. Their feats are better. You want me to explain why? I can, if you want.






> 2. Edo Madara, whos physical traits are not as good as those of EMS alive Madara, reacted to prime V2 Raikage point blank with no problem. His mokuton clones were so fast they could tag V2 Raikage. And he dodged Gaara's sand that could react to V2 Raikage. Those speed feats are already above anything Hiruzen has shown. And Hashirama fought with Edo/alive Madara as his equal. At least in physical traits. That puts him in a very high speed class. Plus, he was outrunning TBB while fighting with Madara *without his Sage Mode*.


Edo Madara > alive EMS Madara.


> 3. Shunshin has nothing to do with speed and reactions. Its a technique. Travel speed has nothing to do with fighting speed. Olympic boxer will be faster in a fight than olympic runner. And we dont know why they arrived in such a manner. Hashirama could prepare his chakra for his techniques. Because of feats, it seems to be true that they were not in the race and that their arrival proves nothing at all in terms of their speed class.






> And Hiruzen was eating punches from Orochimaru's Edo Hashirama. Alive Hiruzen, i might add.


Filler, I might add.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

> Edo Madara > alive EMS Madara.



We had that debate before and i wanted to see a proof Kabuto amped his physical traits. You never gave such a proof. Edo Madara, according to Kabuto, was beyond his prime because he was a fusion of himself and Hashirama. He could use mokuton. And he had Rinnegan. Thats all. By the way, Kabuto didnt know anything about Madaras prime.

That arguement of yours was countered so many times, realy. But i am not surprised you brought that up. You are trolling around, as usual.



> Filler, I might add.



Manga, by the way. Should i bring here scan were Hiruzen got kicked away by Orochimaru's Edo Hashirama and Tobirama? Should i bring here scan were they dodge Hiruzens attack effortlessly? Should i bring here scan were Orochimaru blocked Hiruzens attack? Should i bring here proof Edo Hiruzen was weaker than alive Hiruzen, who was not faster even than Oro's Edo Hokage's?

Hashirama is heads and shoulders above Hiruzen in fighting speed.

It has been proven by me already that both Madara and Hashirama are faster than Minato.You can put laugh images here, but you lost that debate long time ago.


----------



## Dominus (Jan 5, 2015)

We don't know much about their strength back then. We don't know how many Jinton attacks can Onoki do before getting tired and we don't know how many clones Hiruzen could make for elemental attacks and avoiding Jinton.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 5, 2015)

@StarWanderer

Yes please, bring Hashirama's punch because as far as I remember that was filler. As for the first part, you're being delusional as always.  

an the other stuff do not really worth the time, to deal with such silliness.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @StarWanderer
> 
> Yes please, bring Hashirama's punch because as far as I remember that was filler. As for the first part, you're being delusional as always.
> 
> an the other stuff do not really worth the time, to deal with such silliness.



They dodged his attack: outshone Kakashi at 26.

They send him flying: outshone Kakashi at 26.

And Orochimaru blocked Hiruzens attack: outshone Kakashi at 26.

That was alive Hiruzen, who is overall more powerfull than his Edo self, because he wasnt revived with his full power, just like the other Edo Hokage.

And those were Orochimarus Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, who are overall many times weaker than their alive selfs.

Just as i wrote before - Hashirama is heads and shoulders above Hiruzen in speed.

And were is a silliness in my posts? Show me that.

But anyway, you know what is delusional? Its to think that Kabuto's words about his prime prove something, although he never knew about his prime in the first place. Madara being faster and stronger than his EMS alive self is your fantasy. Kishimoto and manga counters your fantasy. Easily.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 5, 2015)

- You think kicking is the same as punching? 



> And were is a silliness in my posts? Show me that.





> *
> ]1. Minato is not faster than aither Hashirama, or Madara. Their feats are better. You want me to explain why? I can, if you want.*






> But anyway, you know what is delusional? Its to think that Kabuto's words about his prime prove something, although he never knew about his prime in the first place. Madara being faster and stronger than his EMS alive self is your fantasy. Kishimoto and manga counters your fantasy. Easily.


Sure, my fantasy is what created that chapter. I can agree with that.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

> Minato is not faster than aither Hashirama, or Madara. Their feats are better. You want me to explain why? I can, if you want.



Oh yeah? That is silliness? Ok, lets compare their feats and see what is silly and what is not.

Minato Namikaze - killed many fodders, was all about praise and hype, beat featless young Ei many times and, with problems, almost ending up in Kamui, beat featless young Obito. 

And now lets see what Edo Madara did - reacted to prime War Arc V2 Raikage Ei (who has some impressive speed feats) *point blank* with no problem. He created his own mokuton clones that were fast enough to tag prime V2 Raikage Ei (if the clones are so fast, you can imagine how fast is the original). And he easily reacted to Gaara's sand that was fast enough to react to prime V2 Shippuden Arc. Raikage Ei. When Madara became alive, he lolstomped SM Naruto without ayes so easily. Nobody had such a performance against SM Naruto using only their speed and strength. And he killed many fodders too.

See the difference? 

But oh, you will bring your fantasy about Madara being modified in all aspects by Kabuto.

Because of that, i wanna ask you some quastions:

1. Why do you think Kabuto's words prove anything, especially after he told Madara he didnt know about his prime?

2. How his modifications we know about can affect his speed and reflexes? What Hashirama's cells have to do with Madara's speed and reflexes? Or even physical strength, when those cells were not in his arms, but in his chest? 

3. Why Edo Hashirama, revived not in his full power, fought that Edo Madara on par and immobilised him twice *without even using his Sage Mode*? 

Can you answer those quastions? I bet you wont answer them. Not because "you dont want to reply to such silliness" or something like that, but because you cant. Why? Because your fantasy is, plain and simple - your fantasy, that has nothing to do with the actual facts.


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 5, 2015)

@StarWanderer


Madara blocked that punch from v1 Raikage, not v2.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> @StarWanderer
> 
> 
> Madara blocked that punch from v1 Raikage, not v2.



It was V2 Ei. His hair was up, just like in his V2 mode. And it is logical he was fighting at his fullest against Madara.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 5, 2015)

What does Hashirama, Madara and Minato have to do with this thread?


----------



## Cognitios (Jan 5, 2015)

It's Hussain, are you seriously telling me you didn't expect a Hussain thread to turn into a Minato argument? 

I thought I trained you better than this 

On the flip side, you know the part where we don't argue like we have alzheimer's Onoki kills Hiruzen with Jinton GG. He can't avoid it,  he can't block it, he has less stamina than Onoki, and both Onoki's offenses and defences are stronger.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> It's Hussain, are you seriously telling me you didn't expect a Hussain thread to turn into a Minato argument?
> 
> I thought I trained you better than this
> 
> On the flip side, you know the part where we don't argue like we have alzheimer's Onoki kills Hiruzen with Jinton GG. He can't avoid it,  he can't block it, he has less stamina than Onoki, and both Onoki's offenses and defences are stronger.



Well, Hiruzen might be fast enough to dodge his Jinton. Am i right?


----------



## Cognitios (Jan 5, 2015)

> Well, Hiruzen might be fast enough to dodge his Jinton. Am i right?


Probably fast enough to dodge once and if he sees it coming. 
Younger Onoki = More Chakra = Larger Jinton blasts
Some jinton minato himself can't dodge.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2015)

Cognitios said:


> Probably fast enough to dodge once and if he sees it coming.
> Younger Onoki = More Chakra = Larger Jinton blasts
> Some jinton minato himself can't dodge.



There is a quastion if Oonoki can dodge his Nature Transformation techniques.

And there are lots of things Minato himself cant dodge. He is one of the most overrated Naruto characters.

Oops, sorry Hussain.


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 5, 2015)

Onoki wins this mid diff 

 - One large scale jinton and thats a GG, not much that hiruzen can do, and his attacks formation speed is just as long as jintons, so hiruzen gets atomised either way, 

 - the starting diistance of 60m, just makes this a piece of cake for onoki, when he can lighten himself to an extent where all of hiruzens attacks are evaded wiith utmost ease,


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 5, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It was V2 Ei. His hair was up, just like in his V2 mode. And it is logical he was fighting at his fullest against Madara.



No it was not V2 Ay. You need to go reread all the chapters Ay was in before you reply again, after that if you still don't understand where you're wrong I'll provide you with the necessary knowledge and enlighten you.


----------



## trance (Jan 5, 2015)

Onoki breathes.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 5, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> No it was not V2 Ay. You need to go reread all the chapters Ay was in before you reply again, after that if you still don't understand where you're wrong I'll provide you with the necessary knowledge and enlighten you.



 He went V2 against Sasuke and Naruto. No reason why he wouldn't against a much stronger opponent.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Jan 6, 2015)

Hiruzen clears his throat


----------



## Mr Dicklesworth (Jan 6, 2015)

Hiruzen soloed Hashirama, Tobirama, and Oro.

Hiruzen>>>>>>>>>>>Kaguya


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 6, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> No it was not V2 Ay. You need to go reread all the chapters Ay was in before you reply again, after that if you still don't understand where you're wrong I'll provide you with the necessary knowledge and enlighten you.



*You* are the one who needs to re-read that chapter. Ei's hair was up when he prepared to attack Madara. That means he used his V2 cloak against Madara.

And before you try to "enlighten" me, i'll provide a link here: here

And later, what can we see? We can see this: here

here

Ei was at his fullest. But couldnt beat Madara. He even commented on it himself, that Madara can counter his speed. And later, he needed Oonoki to make him even faster with his Doton.

Oh by the way, let *me* enlighten you: here

And now i want you to explain me, why V2 Raikage didnt dodge that Susanoo punch from a *clone* when he is so fast he could dodge it. Or he couldnt because he was not fast enough?


----------



## Kyu (Jan 6, 2015)

Onoki embarrasses Hiruzen. Flight+Jinton sweep = a dead monkey.

Hiruzen has tons of outdated hype but that's the only thing he's got going for him.



> Minato is not faster than aither Hashirama, or Madara.



Except he _is_ faster. 

The legendary lovers being a shitload more powerful overall doesn't automatically equate to them being faster. Because they're not. Minato's _Body Flicker_ is the second fastest among the Hokage - behind his son.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 6, 2015)

Well, theoretically, they are not all outdated.  

the 4th Databook still says that he is better than Tobirama, and he knows all the jutsus in konoha.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 6, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Onoki embarrasses Hiruzen. Flight+Jinton sweep = a dead monkey.
> 
> Hiruzen has tons of outdated hype but that's the only thing he's got going for him.
> 
> ...



Except he is *not* faster.

Body Flicker is a technique - a ninjutsu, that has nothing to do with speed and reflexes. And Body Flicker wont give him any advantage, since it allows only to move fast from point A to point B. That wont give him an advantage against aither Madara, or Hashirama. Because they have better speed and reflexes. Their feats are much better.

Minato's speed is highly overrated. EMS Madara can kill him with his taijutsu skills and Gunbai only. Hashirama can kill him without his mokuton - simply with Sage Mode and taijutsu skills. Let me know when Minato has speed feats better than aither Madara, or Hashirama and than we can talk.



> Well, theoretically, they are not all outdated.
> 
> the 4th Databook still says that he is better than Tobirama, and he knows all the jutsus in konoha.



Nonsense. 4th Databok says Minato is better than Tobirama in terms of Hiraishin. Thats all. Nothing more.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 6, 2015)

lol, you think of Minato even in your nightmares, don't you? 
I was talking about Hiruzen. 

also, it's not like if Tobirama has anything else. lol

@Kyu

honestly it's better to not waste your time. lol
the guy still does not know what he's talking about. :rofl

but, on the other hand, it will be nice seeing you suffer.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, you think of Minato even in your nightmares, don't you?
> I was talking about Hiruzen.
> 
> also, it's not like if Tobirama has anything else. lol
> ...



Sorry, it happens. 

Anyway, Hiruzen may be better than Tobirama in terms of talent when he was younger. There is a statement about it in databook. But does that mean he surpassed Tobirama? No.

I know what i am talking about. And i am not surprised you ant bat with m. Its that simple - you cant. Because i countered your nonsense lots of times.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, you think of Minato even in your nightmares, don't you?
> I was talking about Hiruzen.
> 
> also, it's not like if Tobirama has anything else. lol
> ...



By the way, you can prove that Shunshin has anything to do with natural speed and reflexes of those who use this technique. This *ninjutsu technique*. Come on, i'll wait.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jan 6, 2015)

By feats Onoki demolishes Hiruzen with moderate difficulty


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 6, 2015)

why is this still goign on?? 
yes kishi in his sucky ways implied hiruzen survived jinton or at least has seen it in battle. 
he however utterly failed to show how hiruzen would be any better than asuma against onoki 

with jinton u need 2 things..
1) faster attack to prevent it
2) a defense against it- now considering the only defense against it is rikudo 4 elemental combination 
that leaves every one else with option 1 
bar S/T related techniques or super speed

on that basis onoki should troll an army of hiruzen


----------



## Trojan (Jan 6, 2015)

though, I wonder if Hiruzen uses all 5 elements at the same time, would it be able to overwhelm the Jinton
since it's 5 vs 3 elements? 

though I guess making them KKG and/or KKT should make them several times stronger.


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jan 6, 2015)

Oonoki wins by feats.


----------



## ahodak (Jan 6, 2015)

Hiruzen wins.


----------



## Kyu (Jan 6, 2015)

> Body Flicker is a technique - a ninjutsu, that has nothing to do with speed and reflexes.





			
				Databook 1 - Shunshin no Jutsu said:
			
		

> Appearing along with the wind, disappearing like the wind: the ninja's instantaneous movement technique. This super fast movement is almost impossible to grasp with the naked eye. If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... *In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds*. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.









> Let me know when Minato has speed feats better than aither Madara, or Hashirama and than we can talk.



-Shunshin's across Konoha and intercepts Kurama - a Biju who's speed gave a perfect Sage trouble at _half power of his its full power_.

-Beats Tobirama, _Hashirama_ & Hiruzen to the battlefield with time to spare.

-Casually intercepts a sharingan user juiced up on Hashi's DNA



> Minato's speed is highly overrated. EMS Madara can kill him with his taijutsu skills and Gunbai only. Hashirama can kill him without his mokuton - simply with Sage Mode and taijutsu skills.



Not even.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 6, 2015)

Kyu said:


> -Shunshin's across Konoha and intercepts Kurama - a Biju who's speed gave a perfect Sage trouble at _half power of his its full power_.
> 
> -Beats Tobirama, _Hashirama_ & Hiruzen to the battlefield with time to spare.
> 
> ...




1. Show me at least one example of Minato using Shunshin to amp his arms speed for attack, for example. Show me anyone who can use Shunshin to amp their attacks speed, not their travel speed. Raikage uses his lightning cloak for attack and Shunshin for travel, as i know. Even in the statement from Databook it is sayd only about travel from point A to point B. Wanna see Shunshin usage in h2h combat.

2. Kurama is not that fast and there are some shinobi who reacted to him. Even Hashirama not only reacted to him but also outran his TBB.

3. Its a travel speed by Shunshin. Wanna see his combat speed feats that surpass those of Hashirama and Tobirama. I hope you dont think that olympic runner will be faster in a fight than olympic boxer of the same size. 

4. Hashirama's DNA doesnt increase speed and reflexes. And Minato had troubles with Tobi, who almost got him in Kamui demention there.


Both Ei and Tobi were young and featless at the moment of their confrontations with Minato. They were far below their prime. I highly doubt base Minato could dodge adult Tobi. And i am sure he would have had troubles with prime Shippuden/War Arc Raikage Ei.

And other than that, Minato beat only fodders. 


Edo Madara, being not in his full power (physical traits included) blocked Raikage Ei's V2 cloak punch with *no* problem. Should i remind you that prime Ei has feats and young Ei doesnt have feats? Should i also remind you that young Killer Bee was fast enough to react to young Minato when they had their confrontation? 

Also, even his mokuton clones were so fast they could tag V2 prime Raikage Ei. If clones were so fast, you can imagine how fast the original was. And that original wasnt even as fast as he was during his lifetime with EMS. Plus, Edo Madara dodged Gaara's sand that reacted to V2 Raikage once.

And we know both Madara and Hashirama are in the same speed class. 

Madara can knock Minato out even without his Susanoo, or genjutsu. Hashirama can knock him out without using his mokuton - only with Sage Mode. Minato has faster travel speed, but in the actual fight, both Madara and Hashirama can break his jaw before he teleports anywhere. He gets close with his rasengan, or anything else and ends up bleeding.


----------



## Van Konzen (Jan 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why is this still goign on??
> yes kishi in his sucky ways implied hiruzen survived jinton or at least has seen it in battle.
> he however utterly failed to show how hiruzen would be any better than asuma against onoki
> 
> ...



Prime Hiruzen know and able to use all Konoha jutsus.. 
Hiraishin was invented by Tobirama who hails from Konoha therefore he can use it.. :ignoramus


----------

