# Kenshin vs Captain America



## eaebiakuya (Apr 11, 2012)

Who win this fight ?


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## Ice (Apr 11, 2012)

Who? Himura Kenshin?


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## eaebiakuya (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes. Kenshin Himura.


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## Ice (Apr 11, 2012)

Then its possible Kenshin can win. Unless jobber aura comes in.


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## familyparka (Apr 11, 2012)

Kenshin restrains a lot and cannot defeat him with his reverse blade.

Battousai on the other hand...


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## Lord Raizen (Apr 11, 2012)

familyparka said:


> Battousai on the other hand...



Would get pwned as well..

He's impressive for Low level metahumans, but Captain America wouldn't have much trouble defeating him.

Cap's reaction speed and strength coupled with his shield makes all of Kenshin's sword techniques useless. And if by some chance, Kenshin could land a hit on Captain America, it likely wouldn't be a wound he couldn't endure and regenerate from.

His endurance is leagues above Kenshins,  considering even the battousai tires after fighting for a few hours as we saw in his battle with Saitou. Captain America fought Wolverine(who would also defeat Kenshin) for several days without tiring out.

Captain America takes this 9/10 with Moderate difficulty.


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 11, 2012)

Kenshin swings his sword at full speed

Steve counters with Vibranium shield

Sword snaps in two, y/n?


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 11, 2012)

Unless Kenshin sword can cut Vibranium, then America dominates.


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## familyparka (Apr 11, 2012)

And you all are forgetting one thing: Captain America is a Superhuman, who's body has been improved in possibly every way. That includes his 5 senses.

Ryu Mei Sen and he will be in a lot of trouble.


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## Narcissus (Apr 11, 2012)

Lina Inverse said:


> Kenshin swings his sword at full speed
> 
> Steve counters with Vibranium shield
> 
> Sword snaps in two, y/n?



Yes.

Kenshin had his first reverse blade cut by Sojirou with another katana. There is no way he's going to do anything to Captain America's vibranium-based shield. And that was before.

Now the shield has Asgardian Uru infused with it to make it stronger. 

Kenshin loses this.


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## Kurou (Apr 11, 2012)

I remember arguing with IWD about this topic. Like 5-10 pages of me telling him Kenshin dies.


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## Light Summers (Apr 11, 2012)

Kenshin wins with ease. he has every single advantage possible.


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## Lord Raizen (Apr 11, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> Kenshin wins with ease. he has every single advantage possible.



Are you trolling or have you payed little attention to the posts above you.

Kenshin loses.


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## Gone (Apr 11, 2012)

Lord Raizen said:


> Are you trolling or have you payed little attention to the posts above you.
> 
> Kenshin loses.



Yea clearly its impossible for any rational person to disagree with the crowd and not be trolling 

Anyway can Cap bullet time without jobbing? I was under the impression Kenshin was faster, Ill admit to knowing little about Caps feats though.


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## Light Summers (Apr 11, 2012)

Lord Raizen said:


> Are you trolling or have you payed little attention to the posts above you.
> 
> Kenshin loses.



are you trolling with such a ridiculous question? i was under the impression that opinion didn't equal fact.

Kenshin is physically superior in every way possible. i'd also say he's far more skilled but comic art has never been good at showcasing martial arts abillity so it's not that fair of a comparison.

regardless, Kenshin wins.


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 11, 2012)

America can bullet time and I believe he has shown supersonic reflexes, not sure if those are Jobber aura.


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## Light Summers (Apr 11, 2012)

definately jobber aura. he's a peak human. but in his defense, practically all marvel characters are casual bullet timers. even guys like Punisher, a 60+ regular human.


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## neodragzero (Apr 11, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Yea clearly its impossible for any rational person to disagree with the crowd and not be trolling
> 
> Anyway can Cap bullet time without jobbing? I was under the impression Kenshin was faster, Ill admit to knowing little about Caps feats though.





Light Summers said:


> are you trolling with such a ridiculous question? i was under the impression that opinion didn't equal fact.
> 
> Kenshin is physically superior in every way possible. i'd also say he's far more skilled but comic art has never been good at showcasing martial arts abillity so it's not that fair of a comparison.
> 
> regardless, Kenshin wins.



...Rogers can easily see bullets move through air even though he's usually fighting people packing high spec military hardware.

That's without bringing up Civil War feats.


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## Strange of Eternity (Apr 11, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> definately jobber aura. he's a peak human. but in his defense, practically all marvel characters are casual bullet timers. even guys like Punisher, a 60+ regular human.




Nah, ain't jobber aura, caps it's bullet timer, it's not like once he dodged a single bullet, he usually dodge bullets' even in mid air.
Just some bullet-timing feats.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Light Summers (Apr 11, 2012)

i'm aware of how often he does it. what i'm saying is, Cap is not Supersonic. in fact, he's nowhere even close. which would make it PIS. 

the super soldier serum turned him into a peak human. his official speed is between 30-60 miles per hour. that makes him dodging bullets complete bullshit.

i've seen him react to laser beams hundreds of times but it doesn't mean he should.


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## neodragzero (Apr 11, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> i'm aware of how often he does it. what i'm saying is, Cap is not Supersonic. in fact, he's nowhere even close. which would make it PIS.


Already had this discussion before. With what was explained in Brubaker's run, he actually is faster than a bullet while he easily sees bullets while they travel through air as the explanation for how he dodges bullets with ease.

Marvel has a funny definition of peak human when even doing what Daredevil does all the time would destroy a person's knees among other issues.


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## Red Angel (Apr 11, 2012)

Yeah, Captain America wins. Not only does he have a vibranium shield that can deflect Wolverines Claws (which can slice through Hulks skin) but he also can throw his shield hard enough to slice through a truck, dodge bullets because he can see faster than them, jump 2 stories and run 60mph casually


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 12, 2012)

familyparka said:


> And you all are forgetting one thing: Captain America is a Superhuman, who's body has been improved in possibly every way. That includes his 5 senses.
> 
> Ryu Mei Sen and he will be in a lot of trouble.



bloody tossers ignoring this post. The technique won't screw Cap up near close to as much as Enishi, but it should still screw him up. His senses have certainly been demonstrated to be acute enough. He'll be off balance, and at that point Kenshin simply slashes in a way intent on getting his shit parried to get the vortex crack going. Steve is fucked after that. 

Disagree if you want, but it won't prevent america from falling.


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## Narcissus (Apr 12, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Yea clearly its impossible for any rational person to disagree with the crowd and not be trolling


The trolling came in the form of making a statement without any reasoning or bothering to address anything anyone else had said, not because of disagreement. 


Light Summers said:


> i was under the impression that opinion didn't equal fact.


And had people only posted opinions, you would have a point. But various people provided reasoning behind their arguments. You didn't, which is why it amounted to trolling.





> Kenshin is physically superior in every way possible.


Assertions are nice, but you're going to need to provide some evidence. 



And besides which, one blow from America's shield would put Kenshin down.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Apr 12, 2012)

In fiction land reaction speed doesn't equal movement speed. You you can dodge several bullets without being super sonic.


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## familyparka (Apr 12, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> bloody tossers ignoring this post. The technique won't screw Cap up near close to as much as Enishi, but it should still screw him up. His senses have certainly been demonstrated to be acute enough. He'll be off balance, and at that point Kenshin simply slashes in a way intent on getting his shit parried to get the vortex crack going. Steve is fucked after that.
> 
> Disagree if you want, but it won't prevent america from falling.



Thank you, finally someone realized about that post.


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## neodragzero (Apr 12, 2012)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> In fiction land reaction speed doesn't equal movement speed. You you can dodge several bullets without being super sonic.



Except that seeing faster alone doesn't mean much if your body can't keep up at all. The general point that was reached is that he's not simply aim dodging. All the more so when he's typically dodging bullets from rapid fire military weaponry.


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## Distracted (Apr 12, 2012)

So the argument against cap is that "he shouldn't be as good as the feats he uses show"  does that strike anyone as a bit... contrived?

I'll give that the description of Cap makes him sound like he should just be a peak human and thus not a bullet timer... but he is a bullet timer.  Many times over, in the most impressive ways.  He also has a ton more endurance and a nigh unbreakable defense here.

Kenshin has the speed to keep up with the Cap probably, but he's not going to be 'superior' in any way.  Not to mention the endurance gap here is pretty ridiculous.


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## SAFFF (Apr 12, 2012)

This is such an unfair fight. What is Kenshin going to defend with? Cap is too super powered for Kenshin who's just an above average swordsman with insane stamina and durability. Still not enough to handle Cap. 

A better fight would be Kenshin vs Batman.


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## Hale (Apr 12, 2012)

I know the endurance gap is pretty big but, but speed should be about equal couldn't kenshin do something smart and not aim at cap's shield


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## Narcissus (Apr 12, 2012)

familyparka said:


> Thank you, finally someone realized about that post.


Except that it assumes Kenshin will have knowledge of Captain America's enhanced senses.





Distracted said:


> So the argument against cap is that "he shouldn't be as good as the feats he uses show"  does that strike anyone as a bit... contrived?


To some extent.

The Cap admittedly has feats that we disregard because they make no sense (like wailing on Onslaught with his shield), hence his "jobber aura." In this case though you are right; people are taking it too far and attempting to discredit feats that don't apply to said aura.


Hale said:


> I know the endurance gap is pretty big but, but speed should be about equal


I don't think anyone is arguing that there is much of a speed gap here.





> couldn't kenshin do something smart and not aim at cap's shield


It's not about Kenshin not aiming for the shield. It's just the fact that Rogers can react fast enough to block an attack with his shield. He has feats for bullet timing, and has reacted to Cyclops' optic blast at close range.


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## Ice (Apr 12, 2012)

Isn't Kenshin counted as super-sonic? Shouldn't that be enough to tangle with CA's RT?


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> The trolling came in the form of making a statement without any reasoning or bothering to address anything anyone else had said, not because of disagreement. And had people only posted opinions, you would have a point. But various people provided reasoning behind their arguments. Y*ou didn't, which is why it amounted to trolling.Assertions are nice, but you're going to need to provide some evidence. *
> 
> 
> 
> And besides which, one blow from America's shield would put Kenshin down.



you must not read well then huh? i clearly stated Cap loses because he loses in every single department. anyone who knows anything about Captain America knows he's a peak human and not a superhuman. whereas Kenshin is clearly a superhuman. 

and for the record, having a reason for an opinion doesnt change the fact that its still an opinion. specially when it's based off of a human beating a superhuman.

and hows Kenshin's gonna get caught by a guy with mid double digit speed? even factoing in PIS reaction doesnt mean he's gonna be hitting Ken with his shield. also Ken is stronger as well as faster, he could snatch the shield right out of his hands if he wanted to and steve wouldnt be able to do shit about it.

@ Brubaker explaining how he dodges bullets - it was explained he dodges because he sees faster then them. but seeing faster then a bullet would require a superhuman level of accerlated vision. which means that its PIS because we know the SS Serum augmented his body into human perfection. this isn't opinion. this is fact. this is basic character knowledge. so him dodging bullets is no different then him dodging lasers. it's the character doing something he is not capable of doing for plot related reasons. also, it just makes Brubaker look like an idiot. if he was fast enough to dodge bullets he wouldnt be getting tagged by punches/kicks moving at 30-60 MPH from peak humans. hell, Daredevil beat him with ease and he's not even a peak human (physically speaking)


so if we're citing things he's done on panel with complete disregard for what he's actually capable of then Steve solo's the entire HST with his FTL reactions, enough durabillity to take punches from the hulk and enough power to make him bleed. 

take away the bullshit? Kenshin lobs his off. 

Superhuman > Peak Human. 
30-60 mph speed < whatever level of superhuman speed Ken has. 
Strenght in the tons range > can lift no more then 800 pounds


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## Distracted (Apr 12, 2012)

.... are you real?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2012)

> has reacted to Cyclops' optic blast at close range.


very very recently too


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted said:


> .... are you real?



what do you mean by that?


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## Ice (Apr 12, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> very very recently too



Captain America is Marvel's favourite Wankboy. He'll probably be fighting cosmic level dieties and beating them next...


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

maybe i'm missing something since i'm new here but what exactly are the rules on PIS/CIS? i assume you disregard it completely but i'm getting the feeling thats not the case.


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## EvilMoogle (Apr 12, 2012)

As it's two of my favorite characters I can say honestly it would be a good fight.

Let me break it down though:

Strength (attack): 
Obviously Cap would win a power-lifting contest so we'll focus on their attack strength.  

Kenshin's blunted sword has been shown to cave in the chest of opponents in the past.  But at the same time Kenshin never really fights anyone terribly beyond human durability wise.

Cap on the other hand can use his shield as a lethal weapon capable of hurting the Hulk (in part due to the unique nature of the shield, but that's beside the point here).​Durability:
I don't think there's any argument that Cap's more durable.  Kenshin (granted an exhausted Kenshin) was KOd by a simple gunpowder blast.

At the same time Cap has been subjected to much larger explosions (as well as blows from much stronger opponents than Kenshin).​Reflexes:
Okay, so Cap hits harder, and can take more blows than Kenshin can.  The obvious route to victory for Kenshin is his speed then.

In Kenshin's series there are a few cases of Kenshin (and others at his level) blocking bullets.  By their reactions this seems near the limit of their reflexive speed (for example Kenshin and Aioshi didn't simply wade into the gatling gun parrying bullets left and right).

There are multiple, multiple examples of Cap reflexively blocking bullets with his shield.  At least once at range (he throws his shield to block bullets from hitting other people).

As far as responding to attacks I'd say they're both about equal.
​Speed:
As far as movement speed and mobility goes, I don't think there's much of an argument that Kenshin has the edge here (though personally looking at things I wonder if Soujiro wouldn't be a better opponent for Cap).​Stamina:
There is no argument that Cap wins here.  One of the advantages of his "super soldier" potion is unlimited stamina.  If it comes down to attrition Cap wins.​So how do I score the fight?  Cap wins, after a moderately long.  He'd be injured but it would be a decisive victory 9/10 times.

Kenshin's mobility will do well in keeping him alive, however even if he can manage a hit on Cap with his blunted sword, he's just not going to hurt Cap very much.  And any time Cap gets a hit on Kenshin it hurts much more.

To make matters worse, if Cap ever gets a hand on Kenshin, the fight's over.  In grappling or a contest of raw strength Cap will rip Kenshin apart.

Ultimately the confusion comes at Cap being referred to as a "peak human" in the comics.  That definition doesn't jive with the definition commonly used elsewhere for a "peak human."  Cap is _clearly_ superhuman in strength, speed, stamina, etc.

He's called "peak human" because that's what's always used to describe him, not because that's accurate to the definitions used in Marvel's database and the like.


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## eaebiakuya (Apr 12, 2012)

Guys, i know it is off-topic, but a question: Batman is superhuman too?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2012)

peak human in comics

which is above peak human in real life


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

peak human strength means he maxes out at 800 lbs
peak human speed means a character can move as fast as.... i forget this one. somewhere between 30-60 mph though. for example, Spidey has low level superspeed and he's just 60-100 mph
peak human durability... you can take more blunt damage then a normal human (getting hit by a car and falls from greater heights) but guns and knives will still kill you.

so again... my question is, how does it work here? if we base it off of what Cap is officially capable of, then he loses. he wouldnt have a single advantage. Peak Human by definition means he's not capable of doing anything at a superhuman level. and its not really a real world vs. comic debate since Marvel has official claims for what makes you superhuman. 

but if official power levels are disregarded and you go off of only what he's shown to do on panel, then that opens up huge inconsistencies. one moment, he's dodging bullets and lasers. then the next he's getting tagged by guys who cant move anywhere near as fast as as a professional baseball pitch muchless a laser. 

so whats the rules here? i've seen threads where PIS was disregarded and i see threads where its accepted without question.

@ at the batman question - he's a peakhuman too.


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

So let me get this straight Light Summers

You're saying Cap _shouldn't_ be able to do the super human stuff he's doing because he's supposed to be just peak human and that said feats _should_ be automatically considered PIS, cause, you know, he's just peak human and said feats _aren't_ peak human feats so they should be ignored

...are you for real?


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

what is PIS? someone doing something they're not capable of doing correct?

if Cap beat Doom by hitting him with a fireball it would be PIS because we know he doesnt have fire powers.

we also know the extent of his physical capabillites, which is at a superhuman level.

for example, i see alot of things get labeled as outliers and disregarded because it doesnt match with what a character should be able to do. how is this any different?

as for your "he shouldn't be able to do it" mockery. does that mean Silver Surfer isn't massively FTL since he couldnt prevent himself from being put in an armbar by Black Panther (a peak human) or does that mean Black Panther is also massively FTL? 

you see what i'm saying?


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## EvilMoogle (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> peak human strength means he maxes out at 800 lbs


Here's the issue, he's not peak human.  He's mild superhuman.  He can lift on the 1-2 ton level.



Light Summers said:


> so again... my question is, how does it work here? if we base it off of what Cap is officially capable of, then he loses. he wouldnt have a single advantage. Peak Human by definition means he's not capable of doing anything at a superhuman level. and its not really a real world vs. comic debate since Marvel has official claims for what makes you superhuman.


Cap is consistently shown to be superhuman in terms of strength, stamina, and reaction time.

If you're asking if we should ignore the consistent feats in favor of a tagline that is applied to Cap, my answer is "no."

That doesn't mean that outlier feats aren't open to debate (ala Spider-Man vs. Firelord).

Your argument could be turned the other way.  Megumi clearly states that Kenshin is "just a human" at the end of the Kyoto arc.  Clearly his speed, strength, etc can't be any better than peak human right?  Turning this fight into "weak strength peak human with a blunt sword vs. peak human with an unbreakable 'magic' shield."


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

a peak human with a blunt sword that can't even break his opponent's shield vs a peak human that has a shield that can probably stand up to Thor's mjolnir strike

things not looking good with the blunt sword user

EDIT: IIRC Thor DID manage to bend he living hell out of cap's shield

funny thing though he hammered it back to the original shape


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## Ice (Apr 12, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> Guys, i know it is off-topic, but a question: Batman is superhuman too?



F*ck. No. Lulz


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

EvilMoogle said:


> Here's the issue, he's not peak human.  He's mild superhuman.  He can lift on the 1-2 ton level.
> 
> 
> Cap is consistently shown to be superhuman in terms of strength, stamina, and reaction time.
> ...



but the problem is, theres no constinecty in comics. Cap being a bullet timer isnt even consisent. bullets are supersonic on average right? the guys he fights, Crossbones, Batroc, Red Skull, Zemo, etc. none of them move remotely that fast.

so now you'd have to ask your self, which one is correct? him not being able to dodge double digit attacks? or him being able to effortlessly dodge gunfire and lasers? 

ones backed up by his official rating and ones not. its also how we know Spidey beating a herald is PIS as opposed to Spidey losing to street level villains.

dont get me wrong, i'm not saying official ratings > everything else. i'm just saying given how inconsistent the medium is in comparison to manga (generally speaking) it makes it alot easier to decide someones power level. thats all i'm trying to say here.

but if thats the rules here then thats the rules. On Panel Showings > Official Ratings is fine with me. i just needed it cleared up since the 1st thread i posted in was Roshi vs. Cyclops and it was concensus Roshi would speed blitz him. my logic was Cyclops has tagged people faster then Roshi numerous times but it was disregarded as PIS. so i was working under the assumption that its Official Ratings > On Panel Showings.


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 12, 2012)

Just to solidfy why peak human in comics doesnt mean exactly peak human in real life.

Almost all the none super powered street level heroes are peak human and half the stuff the do is borderline super human. 

DC does the same treatment in Batman what Marvel does for Cap, they refuse to classify them as superhuman but both have shown low-mild superhuman feats some even consistently .


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## hammer (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> what is PIS? someone doing something they're not capable of doing correct?



PIS is sauske not getting wtf pwned by dedira's bombs


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

@ huey - i agree. i think it would be alot easier to just say they started out as peak humans but became superhumans via years of training. most characters current power level far exceed the levels they started out as anyways. i dont get why they limit their human characters.

do they really think Batman, Nightwing, Punisher and Cap doing half the shit they do is less far fetched then them simply evolving into superhuman characters? by real standards. If Cap was a peak human back when he was 19, then simply a year of training (much less 15) would make him a superhuman.  which would make the shit they do seem far less forced. (maybe not as far dodging lasers though)

@ hammer - not sure if you're legitmately answerin my question or trying to come at me by attackin a Sauske feat. 

i dont really remember that fight that well, but if it was PIS then it was PIS.


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## EvilMoogle (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> but the problem is, theres no constinecty in comics.


If that's what you believe then there's little point in you debating in comic threads.



Light Summers said:


> Cap being a bullet timer isnt even consisent. bullets are supersonic on average right?


No, actually.  It depends on the type of gun/bullet.  But he has dodged bullets from high powered rifles so the point is the same.



Light Summers said:


> the guys he fights, Crossbones, Batroc, Red Skull, Zemo, etc. none of them move remotely that fast.


Red Skull is canonically as fast as Cap, so there's no surprise there.

Most of the others have very high levels of skill and technique to bridge the reflex gap.  Bullets don't change how they move once they're fired, the same is not true of martial artists.

Reznor (I think) put it best quite some time ago.  Imagine a train on a track headed toward you, even if you notice it fairly close to you, you can still dive out of the way.

Does this make you faster than a train?  No, of course not.

Cap's reflexes are proportionately faster than a normal humans, he can "see" bullets and he can get out of the way of them.  He cannot outrun a bullet.

When he fights someone in melee it's different, he can certainly "see" the fist, but as he dodges his opponent can also take action to redirect.  There's also feints, misdirections, etc that can cause problems.


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## hammer (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> @ hammer - not sure if you're legitmately answerin my question or trying to come at me by attackin a Sauske feat.
> 
> i dont really remember that fight that well, but if it was PIS then it was PIS.



It is both at the same time actually.


he had no chakra left but did a boss sumon and genjutsed inside manda's mind with NO chakra in like 2 seconds, THAT is PIS


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> @ huey - i agree. i think it would be alot easier to just say they started out as peak humans but became superhumans via years of training. most characters current power level far exceed the levels they started out as anyways. i dont get why they limit their human characters.
> 
> do they really think Batman, Nightwing, Punisher and Cap doing half the shit they do is less far fetched then them simply evolving into superhuman characters? by real standards. If Cap was a peak human back when he was 19, then simply a year of training (much less 15) would make him a superhuman.  which would make the shit they do seem far less forced. (maybe not as far dodging lasers though)
> 
> ...



Actually they can screw over their characters and fanbase if they try put Batman as a superhuman because his whole gimmick is being a regular human who can go toe to toe with the strongest super powers up there.


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## Raid3r2010 (Apr 12, 2012)

Basically he's one of the fastest peak humans in comics.

Captain America displayed many times bullet trigger timing which is not even near to someone who's in the super-sonic range like Kenshin Himura.

I also tend to believe Kenshin is stronger physically,going with Kenshin for now.


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## SAFFF (Apr 12, 2012)

eaebiakuya said:


> Guys, i know it is off-topic, but a question: Batman is superhuman too?



No, which is why he'd be a more interesting opponent for Kenshin.



Raid3r2010 said:


> Basically he's one of the fastest peak humans in comics.
> 
> Captain America displayed many times bullet trigger timing which is not even near to someone who's in the super-sonic range like Kenshin Himura.
> 
> I also tend to believe Kenshin is stronger physically,going with Kenshin for now.



What makes you think Kenshin is stronger than Captain America? Because he can overpower big burly fodder? Seems like every huge guy Kenshin overpowered turned out to be just that. A big huge guy.


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## Narcissus (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> you must not read well then huh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excuse me? because making general statements without clear explanation is not tantamount to reasoning, hence why your statement could be considered trolling.





> i clearly stated Cap loses because he loses in every single department.


Which was an unsupported assertion on your part.





> anyone who knows anything about Captain America knows he's a peak human and not a superhuman. whereas Kenshin is clearly a superhuman.


Anyone who knows anything about Marvel comics knows that peak human there is not the same thing as peak human in real life. Captain America has consistent feats placing him above peak human by our standards.

And no, you do not get to sit there and dismiss them without a valid reason





> and for the record, having a reason for an opinion doesnt change the fact that its still an opinion. specially when it's based off of a human beating a superhuman.


Then you shouldn't be bothering to post in this section, as it involves debating to support your opinion (which you failed miserably to do when you first posted in the thread).





> and hows Kenshin's gonna get caught by a guy with mid double digit speed? even factoing in PIS reaction doesnt mean he's gonna be hitting Ken with his shield.


Stop.

You have yet to provide a legitimate basis for why the reaction feats are PIS. Conversely, there are multiple instances of him reacting to bullets, including an explanation on why. Kenshin's speed advantage isn't enough to blitz Rogers either, so it's a moot point. 


> also Ken is stronger


Based on what?





> he could snatch the shield right out of his hands if he wanted to and steve wouldnt be able to do shit about it.


Until you provide some something to support this, I am disinclined to accept it.

Feats and logical arguments please, or let someone else pick up the debate for you.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> @ Brubaker explaining how he dodges bullets - it was explained he dodges because he sees faster then them. but seeing faster then a bullet would require a superhuman level of accerlated vision. which means that its PIS because we know the SS Serum augmented his body into human perfection. this isn't opinion. this is fact. this is basic character knowledge. so him dodging bullets is no different then him dodging lasers. it's the character doing something he is not capable of doing for plot related reasons. also, it just makes Brubaker look like an idiot. if he was fast enough to dodge bullets he wouldnt be getting tagged by punches/kicks moving at 30-60 MPH from peak humans. hell, Daredevil beat him with ease and he's not even a peak human (physically speaking)


I don't want to repeat myself and I'm not interested in more baseless claims on your part. See above. Others in the thread have also explained to you already that Marvel peak human ≠ real life peak human. America would be considered super human by our standards.





> so if we're citing things he's done on panel with complete disregard for what he's actually capable of then Steve solo's the entire HST with his FTL reactions, enough durabillity to take punches from the hulk and enough power to make him bleed.


Stop.

These are not comparable examples because America having any FTL reactions, wailing on Onslaught, or tanking punches from the Hulk are significantly more impressive than bullet dodging. And far more out of his class too. *THAT* is where PIS comes into play.


> take away the bullshit? Kenshin lobs his off.


Missing a word there? Kenshin isn't going to lob anything off; he's using a reverse blade sword.





> Superhuman > Peak Human.


Well I'm glad we agree on this much. It's a good thing neither are peak human by out standards. 

For the record, I don't think this match would be a stomp in either direction. But I see the odds favoring America a good deal more.


Lina Inverse said:


> a peak human with a blunt sword that can't even break his opponent's shield vs a peak human that has a shield that can probably stand up to Thor's mjolnir strike
> 
> things not looking good with the blunt sword user
> 
> EDIT: IIRC Thor DID manage to bend he living hell out of cap's shield



His shield recently got an upgrade with Asgardian Uru metal.


----------



## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

EvilMoogle said:


> If that's what you believe then there's little point in you debating in comic threads.
> 
> 
> No, actually.  It depends on the type of gun/bullet.  But he has dodged bullets from high powered rifles so the point is the same.
> ...



- sure, the type of gun depends but like i said "on average" i'd say thats a decent estimate of speed. i could look it up though and double check, i'm no gun expert afterall. 

- as for the train part... it's very different due to the sheer size of the moving object. also, if Cap can dodge point blank gunfire. (which he has done) you dont think he should be able to dodge a 60 mph (high guesstimate) punch? if he can follow something that moves 10 times faster then their punches, regardless of how you feint  he would be able to see it coming. but lets say it goes like how you say:

the punch is thrown. Cap see's it coming and dodges. the punch changes accordingly to hit Cap. Cap changes accordingly to dodge it..... thats how it should take place. these dudes would never be able to lay a finger on him if he was really thats fast. not to mention, that doesnt take place at all. i can open up a Cap comic right now and see him getting hit without his opponent changing the angle or direction of the punch before it lands. 

so one of 2 things is happening here.

Cap is not a superhuman and him dodging gunfire is PIS. (which goes along with Marvel telling you he isn't superhuman)
or Cap is a superhuman and everyone who tags him has supersonic hand speed. (which creates even more inconsistencies)

but lets say its option 2. by this logic, he's also faster then light as well since he has dodged lasers. you see what i'm saying? no matter how you look at it, huge inconsisties exist. if we accept one then we have to accept them all. other wise we're just picking and choosing in order to benefit the character.

and for the record. this isnt even about Kenshin vs. Cap at this point. this is just about the process of deteriming how they win.

EDIT... i'd reply to the other posts but this one is already long and i've read double posting is frowned upon here so it'll have to wait.


----------



## Kurou (Apr 12, 2012)

Lina Inverse said:


> a peak human with a blunt sword that can't even break his opponent's shield vs a peak human that has a shield that can probably stand up to Thor's mjolnir strike



Kenshin isn't exactly peak human either. Guys well into the superhuman range. Likewise, Cap still takes a flying shit on him


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## EvilMoogle (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> - as for the train part... it's very different due to the sheer size of the moving object. also, if Cap can dodge point blank gunfire. (which he has done) you dont think he should be able to dodge a 60 mph (high guesstimate) punch?


Actually at point-blank dodging gunfire isn't any different than dodging attacks.  You know where their hand is and the gun only fires one direction.




Light Summers said:


> if he can follow something that moves 10 times faster then their punches, regardless of how you feint  he would be able to see it coming. but lets say it goes like how you say:


Melee combat works on a totally different level than gunplay.

You don't just "throw a punch and change it," at least not if you're a skilled opponent.  The combat tends to be a mix of multiple different attacks from different angles mixed with feints and reading the opponent.

If you're fighting someone that is durable enough to take hits from you (which is most of Cap's named opponents), it's very difficult to have a hand-to-hand fight without getting hit some of the time.

With a gun, at range once the bullet leaves the barrel of the gun it travels in a straight line without changing.  If you can see it and can react at even a fraction of the speed of the bullet, you can move to the side.



Light Summers said:


> but lets say its option 2. by this logic, he's also faster then light as well since he has dodged lasers.


This is very poor logic.  See the "train" example above.

I've seen kids dive out of the way of cars, that does not make a kid faster than a 60mph car.

I've seen kids block 100m/s paintballs, that does not make a kid faster than a paintball.

And cap blocking or dodging a bullet doesn't require him to be faster than the bullet.

(I've never seen an example of Cap reflexively doding laserfire, if others are using that example I'll leave that for them to defend)


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2012)

if Cap dodged a *real* laser after it was fired that's an outlier

if he aim-dodged that's okay


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> Excuse me? because making general statements without clear explanation is not tantamount to reasoning, hence why your statement could be considered trolling.Which was an unsupported assertion on your part.Anyone who knows anything about Marvel comics knows that peak human there is not the same thing as peak human in real life. Captain America has consistent feats placing him above peak human by our standards.
> 
> And no, you do not get to sit there and dismiss them without a valid reasonThen you shouldn't be bothering to post in this section, as it involves debating to support your opinion (which you failed miserably to do when you first posted in the thread).Stop.
> 
> ...



- here you go with this "real life" thing. i never once said Caps feats are PIS because "humans in real life cant do that". i said their PIS because they go against what is considered a peak human for his universe. he himself has said he's not a superhuman, as have other characters, as has Marvel's official handbooks.

- dismiss? is that right? me posting my opinion equates to dismissing now?

- prove it? lol... you serious? we all know he's not superhuman. thats basic knowledge. the debate me and ol' dude are having is over which inconstincies are acceptable. 

but for your benefit...



- lol @ "i dont want to repeat myself"... do us both a favor man, dont. or if you do, atleast know what you're talking about. and for the record. Kenshin slices through metal like its tissue with his sword. he is fully capable of splitting Steve in two.

and my bad... it was 30 MPH not 60. i guess Spidey was 60 then.


----------



## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> - here you go with this "real life" thing. i never once said Caps feats are PIS because "humans in real life cant do that". i said their PIS because they go against what is considered a peak human for his universe. he himself has said he's not a superhuman, as have other characters, as has Marvel's official handbooks.
> 
> - dismiss? is that right? me posting my opinion equates to dismissing now?
> 
> ...



Why do you keep dismissing his feats as PIS and keep favoring what is written on databooks/stat sheets and the like?



Narcissus said:


> His shield recently got an upgrade with Asgardian Uru metal.



Loooooool

I would now really love to see kenshin try to hit his shield


----------



## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

I've debated this before. Really both of them have a chance. But I'd give it to cap maybe a very slight majority.


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

I reckon Kenshin shouldn't hit Cap's shield for him to have a chance

Then again nothing's stopping Cap to whack Kenshin's katana


----------



## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

Yes, Kenshin would do better if he had basic knowledge, then he wouldn't try to attack the shield


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 12, 2012)

doesn't kuzu ryusen hit 9 parts of the body simultaneously
although the issue is caps durability


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

That's obviously hyperbole, because unless Kenshin can grow 9 arms or travel through time, that's impossible. It just hits them in rapid succession.


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## Nevermind (Apr 12, 2012)

So it's back to using databooks over actual feats now?


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

and I thought we already grew up from that too

tsk


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 12, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> That's obviously hyperbole, because unless Kenshin can grow 9 arms or travel through time, that's impossible. It just hits them in rapid succession.


 I doubt it is really at the same time but you know what I mean...
 and it is achieved with his godlike speed


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

Simultaneously means "at the same time". It's obviously not literally simultaneous.


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Lina Inverse said:


> Why do you keep dismissing his feats as PIS and keep favoring what is written on databooks/stat sheets and the like?




why do i keep citing his official stats? because they're his official stats and thats and thats partially why they were created. so fans can have an official refference of what the characters can do. i'd say the better question is why are you dismissing it? 
also, i've already stated Cap gets hit regularly by people who have a speed of around 30 mph. Kenshin is obviously supersonic since he can create shockwaves. so that would mean Kenshin is atleast 20 times faster then people who regularly tag him.

so theres you go, feats and databooks. vs. feats.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

Feats win every time


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 12, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Simultaneously means "at the same time". It's obviously not literally simultaneous.


yeah I edited my post


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Feats win every time



you saying feats outweight feats + official rating?


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

Feats outweigh databook shit


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## Nevermind (Apr 12, 2012)

Official ratings are meaningless if they contradict feats.

Hey though I can play that game too. Daizenshuu states that SSJ3 Goku is supersonic.

Regarding Kenshin his movement speed is superior but Cap has the reactions to keep up plus his shield that Kenshin can't do shit against.


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

Cause all your referencing Cap's feat from are from his low end feats(getting hit by 30mph or whatever number you just said) and the 'official stats' you keep bringing up

What about the other stuff he has done? Are they PIS because they don't fall on said categories?

EDIT: Stupid quote button


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm starting to think your biased about this Light Summers, and your cherry picking feats for Cap to support that Kenshin wins this

Don't do that.


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Official ratings are meaningless if they contradict feats.
> 
> Hey though I can play that game too. Daizenshuu states that SSJ3 Goku is supersonic.
> 
> Regarding Kenshin his movement speed is superior but Cap has the reactions to keep up plus his shield that Kenshin can't do shit against.



contradict what feats? Cap constantly getting tagged by guys who move no faster than 30 mph? cap dodging bullets? or cap dodging lasers?

a feat is meaningless if it has complete disregard for what a character can do and is shown to do. otherwise it would Spidey > Firelord.

also, exactly what advantage does Cap have over Kenshin? and why would Kenshin have to do shit against his shield would he could put a sword through his skull? 

even with supersonic reactions that means little since Kenshin also has supersonic reactions, difference is, he's actually far faster. hell, Sano has supersonic reactions and that did him little good against Kenshin.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

Cap has arguably hypersonic reactions.


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## Nevermind (Apr 12, 2012)

You've been shown several of his bullet timing feats. It is part of "what he can do" no matter how much you want to argue otherwise.

He has his shield and the other physical advantages that were laid out earlier.


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Lina Inverse said:


> Cause all your referencing Cap's feat from are from his low end feats(getting hit by 30mph or whatever number you just said) and the 'official stats' you keep bringing up
> 
> What about the other stuff he has done? Are they PIS because they don't fall on said categories?
> 
> EDIT: Stupid quote button



2 way street freind. i havent heard you mention his 30 mph feats so does that make you bias as well?
but no i'm not bias. dont even like Kenshin. dont even like his series.


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> 2 way street freind. i havent heard you mention his 30 mph feats so does that make you bias as well?
> but no i'm not bias. dont even like Kenshin. dont even like his series.



wait what?


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> You've been shown several of his bullet timing feats. It is part of "what he can do" no matter how much you want to argue otherwise.
> 
> He has his shield and the other physical advantages that were laid out earlier.



based off of what? on panel showings? theirs also on panel showings of him getting tagged by guys that dont move annywhere neaaar as fast as Kenshin.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 12, 2012)

well what if there are equal amounts of superhuman and peak human feats?
which do we go by


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2012)

If you want to talk about outliers, we can mention Cap hurting and surviving against the likes of Onslaught and Hulk


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

Lina Inverse said:


> wait what?



rurouni kenshin = cool when i was a kid. had some great characters like Shishio and Sano. not a fan of the series in general though. 
Kenshin Himura = never liked him. dont really like any popular shounen-action male leads to be honest. their all the same. love and freindship conqueres all. 

Ed Elric was ok though.


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 12, 2012)

you just made me even more confused


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## Light Summers (Apr 12, 2012)

why? cuzz the avatar? 
off topic... but i like Lina Inverse as well. she wasnt on that shonen bullshit.


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## Blue (Apr 12, 2012)

I feel like Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki is Kenshin's only real chance, because a shield is a deciding factor in a swordfight; make it unbreakable, and put it in the hands of a bullet timer, and you've got a real problem.

The succession technique actually relies on the initial blow being parried. If you don't, you're still dead, but if you do you get air juggled in a way that prevents you parrying the second, more serious blow. Without any knowledge of it, Cap is pretty much guaranteed to take it in his Liefield chesticles.

That said, it's unlikely Kenshin's blunt sword would put Cap down, because it failed to put Shishio down. Shishio was an enormous badass, but so is Cap.


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## Kurou (Apr 12, 2012)

If cap blocks the ougi Kenshin's sword'll break. He wouldn't be completing the second part of it.


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## Blue (Apr 12, 2012)

NMG said:


> If cap blocks the ougi Kenshin's sword'll break. He wouldn't be completing the second part of it.



I wouldn't think there's any particular reason the sword would have to break. It wouldn't be the first time Kenshin's hit something harder than he could cut.


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## Strange of Eternity (Apr 12, 2012)

Blue said:


> I wouldn't think there's any particular reason the sword would have to break. It wouldn't be the first time Kenshin's hit something harder than he could cut.



Well, vibranium plus asgardian enchanted uru it's something harder than anything kenshin has ever hit.


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## Kurou (Apr 12, 2012)

But this is Cap's shield. It's harder than anything in RK, unless we go under the assumption that Kenshin's using an unbreakable sword.


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## Blue (Apr 12, 2012)

NMG said:


> But this is Cap's shield. It's harder than anything in RK, unless we go under the assumption that Kenshin's using an unbreakable sword.


How much harder the shield is than the sword is irrelevant. Kenshin would have to apply enough force to the sword to break it plus the force absorbed by Cap recoiling from the blow. 

I don't think that's likely given how solid Shakku Arai's gear was said to be.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 13, 2012)

Kenshin has quasi body/emotion reading. Cap doesn't. Adv Kenshin.

Nothing stops Kenshin from using his sheath as a distraction. The sheath hits cap in the foot when Kenshin goes at him high. However, Kenshin decided to pull back. Ryu Sen. Cap's senses are thrown into oblivion. American falls. The End.


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## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

Most of the impact would be absorbed by the shield and Kenshins sword would break as a result. Cap could just smack his sword with his shield and the sword would still break. Smack kenshin in the face with it and he'd be picking up his jaw.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 13, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Kenshin has body reading. Cap doesn't. Adv Kenshin.



Because it's not like he's beaten Taskmaster who has more advanced "body reading" than you practically ever seen in manga, right?

Oh, wait. He has.


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## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

That was bullshit though


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## Blue (Apr 13, 2012)

NMG said:


> Most of the impact would be absorbed by the shield and Kenshins sword would break as a result. Cap could just smack his sword with his shield and the sword would still break. Smack kenshin in the face with it and he'd be picking up his jaw.



I'm not sure if we're on the same page here. I'm saying that Kenshin doesn't have the strength to so easily break his own sword, which is what would be happening.

Neither does Cap have the strength to "just smack it" apart. A couple of tons isn't going to break a katana that took 7 chapters to introduce, not to mention the crap copy of said katana took on a cannonball and won.

How hard the shield is just doesn't matter. It is the strength of the participants.


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## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

Blue said:


> I'm not sure if we're on the same page here. I'm saying that Kenshin doesn't have the strength to so easily break his own sword, which is what would be happening.



He's swinging his sword with all his might at an object far harder than anything he's ever hit before. It's snapping like a twig.






> Neither does Cap have the strength to "just smack it" apart.



I beg to differ




> A couple of tons isn't going to break a katana that took 7 chapters to introduce,




The amount of plot armor it has is irrelevant in a VS debate



> not to mention the crap copy of said katana took on a cannonball and won.




Which means nothing when comparing it to caps shield.



> How hard the shield is just doesn't matter. It is the strength of the participants.



That's like saying I could go out and swing a twig at a guy wearing armor and it wouldn't break because he's not blocking hard enough.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 13, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Because it's not like he's beaten Taskmaster who has more advanced "body reading" than you practically ever seen in manga, right?
> 
> Oh, wait. He has.



Does Task Master's fighting style use chi/ki? Is TM physically equal to Steve? 

Everything rogers will do will be evident to Kenshin unless Cap has feats of using Chi/Ki, and or absolutely no emotions like Soujiro. The latter I know isn't the case.

*Spoiler*: __ 










Ken reads exactly what steve is planning. Ken set-sup a feint. Ken uses said feint to insure his Ougi is parried. GG.


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## Blue (Apr 13, 2012)

NMG said:


> That's like saying I could go out and swing a twig at a guy wearing armor and it wouldn't break because he's not blocking hard enough.



...
No, it is nothing like that. You're basically saying that Kenshin's sword respective to his strength is the same as a twig respective to your own strength.

This is obviously not true or he'd need a new sword every chapter. 

Imagine, for instance, yourself fighting snowmen with a twig. The twig is demonstrably harder than the snowmen, but you'd still quickly break it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Apr 13, 2012)

LOL, no - limits fallacy. GTFO here with that shit, Cap has beaten people with battle precog all the time.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 13, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> LOL, no - limits fallacy. GTFO here with that shit, Cap has beaten people with battle precog all the time.



Garbage. 

Show me someone equal to cap in physical stats, with a weapon that has higher reach, and the ability to one-shot if he parries ( and Cap has no idea not to parry) with "battle pre-cog" that he's beaten.


----------



## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Does Task Master's fighting style use chi/ki? Is TM physically equal to Steve?




No it doesn't use chi and neither does Kenshin's. Kenshins reads his opponents emotions, it's just called ki.



Even shishio explained it

Joy= fighting Ki

Anger = killing ki ect.

It's why he he had so much trouble against Seta, because Seta has no emotions (suppressed) and therefore Kenshin had nothing to read him with.


----------



## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

Blue said:


> ...
> No, it is nothing like that. You're basically saying that Kenshin's sword respective to his strength is the same as a twig respective to your own strength.
> 
> This is obviously not true or he'd need a new sword every chapter.
> ...



Other than the snowman part as I have no idea what the fuck that's about, I understand what you're saying. In that case sure, it's a matter of how hard Caps shield is, how strong Cap himself is, and how hard Kenshin swings his sword.


It's snapping.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 13, 2012)

After Shishio was knocked down and Kenshin thought he'd won, it was stated Kenshin sensed Shishio's Chi/KI rise...

And Chi/Ki/Emotion or wtv you want to call it, Steve has no means of not being read by Kenshin. That's a decisive point in a fight beaten nigh physical equals...

Edit: Even if taskmaster had the same reading ability as kenshin, unless he had a sword and Kenshin's vortex move, it doesn't reflect on the outcome of kenshin vs cap. Cap doesn't know not to parry. If he tries to ram Kenshin instead, he is dead.


----------



## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> After Shishio was knocked down and Kenshin thought he'd won, it was stated Kenshin sensed Shishio's Chi/KI rise...



I'm not saying the series doesn't use Ki, in fact, Kenshin tried to scare Seta with his sword ki when they first met.

But it's emotions he uses to read his opponents.



> And Chi/Ki/Emotion or wtv you want to call it, Steve has no means of not being read by Kenshin. That's a decisive point in a fight beaten nigh physical equals...




Physical equals? unless I'm missing something only their speed is comparable and considering a lot of shit Cap has done I doubt their equal in that regard as well



> Even if taskmaster had the same reading ability as kenshin,



His is better





> unless he had a sword



he does, a longer one than Kenshins




> and Kenshin's vortex move, it doesn't reflect on the outcome of kenshin vs cap. Cap doesn't know not to parry.



Cap blocks his sword, the vortex pulls him in, Cap puts his shield back up, kenshin's sword breaks from the increased force. Seriously, just because he got caught of guard doesn't mean he's going to just stand there going wh-what is this, trying to rationalize what just happened instead of defending himself again like shishio did.



> If he tries to ram Kenshin instead, he is dead.



He'd run Kenshin over like a tank over kittens.


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## Blue (Apr 13, 2012)

NMG said:


> It's snapping.



Whatever dude. Only in the minds of comic book authors who never passed high school physics do unbreakable objects randomly destroy anything that hits them regardless of the energies involved.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 13, 2012)

Well you see, the vibranium alloy in Cap's shield will interact with the metal of the sword, creating an inverse oscillation pulse that will travel back along its molecular structure, shattering it at its resonance frequency[/technobabble]


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## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

Blue said:


> Whatever dude. Only in the minds of comic book authors who never passed high school physics do unbreakable objects randomly destroy anything that hits them regardless of the energies involved.



You're working under the assumption Kenshin can't swing his sword hard enough to break it and ignoring how hard Cap's shield is, all I'm saying is you can't do that.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 13, 2012)

if this taskmaster really uses Kenshin-Verse style attacks, alirght, Cap wins.  Still, Kenshin has a chance with his ougi. If Steve parries instead of blocks or rams...
----

Also, yeah, they are comparable in physical stats. Kenshin sending a 10 ton machine sailing into the air and knocking down Enishi blimp isn't exactly an average striking feat for Steve. In fact, that's far closer than what Spidey does when he punches venom a block or two away. Edit: Spidey before his current machine upgrades i mean...


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## Kurou (Apr 13, 2012)

He doesn't use "Kenshinverse style" attacks. Whatever the fuck that means. And you say parry, but all Shishio really did was block it then go for a counter attack, got caught by surprise and ended up eating a reverse blade


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## Narcissus (Apr 13, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> - here you go with this "real life" thing. i never once said Caps feats are PIS because "humans in real life cant do that". i said their PIS because they go against what is considered a peak human for his universe. he himself has said he's not a superhuman, as have other characters, as has Marvel's official handbooks.


Sorry to disappoint you, but he has consistent feats above peak human. I've already given you examples of what his PIS feats include (hammering away at onslaught and taking hits from Hulk). Reacting to bullets do not count.


> - dismiss? is that right? me posting my opinion equates to dismissing now?


That's right, you've been dismissing. Regardless of your opinion, this is a debate, meaning you're required to provide support for it. Without it, you have no right to dismiss what's he's consistently demonstrated.


> - prove it? lol... you serious? we all know he's not superhuman. thats basic knowledge. the debate me and ol' dude are having is over which inconstincies are acceptable.


Yes, I am serious. Making more assertions about what everyone supposedly "knows" isn't proof, nor is it an excuse for you not to provide evidence.


> but for your benefit...


Others have already explained to you that feats take precedence over any kind of data books. 


> - lol @ "i dont want to repeat myself"...


I don't, because I shouldn't have to. It's your job to address what I've said in the debate.


> or if you do, atleast know what you're talking about.


This seems to apply to you, rather than me.


> and for the record. Kenshin slices through metal like its tissue with his sword. he is fully capable of splitting Steve in two.


Funny, considering I don't recall him ever slicing through a person with the reverse blade. In fact, as Battousai he flipped his sword to the sharp side when he intended to kill Jinei.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 13, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> you must not read well then huh? i clearly stated Cap loses because he loses in every single department. anyone who knows anything about Captain America knows he's a peak human and not a superhuman. whereas Kenshin is clearly a superhuman.
> 
> and for the record, having a reason for an opinion doesnt change the fact that its still an opinion. specially when it's based off of a human beating a superhuman.
> 
> ...



Kenshin meanwhile, has had no serum at all, he is just human, so he shouldn't be able to bullet-time either. But he can. America has shown feats for dodging bullets, so he can dodge bullet. Marvel humans are obviously more powerful than RW humans. Jobbing is different BTW, because it includes character battles, not feats.


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## HumanWine (Apr 16, 2012)

I really dont understand whats going on here. The OBD went through this years ago. If I throw a baseball at you going 100 mph, even if you are a fat slob, you can dodge it depending on how close I am to you. Does that mean you can move at 100mph? No. It doesnt even mean you can push 3 miles an hour at full sprint.

Its not a stretch for a man in perfect physical condition with enhanced reaction time, can "dodge a bullet". Pointblank, no but from 20ft like he always does fired by a person with typical human reaction time, fuck yes. Hell anyone could dodge a bullet if the gun were far enough and one could see the bullet. Mythbusters proved it.

[DLMURL="[DLMURL]Link removed"]its in the fucking wiki[/DLMURL]


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Apr 16, 2012)

HumanWine said:


> I really dont understand whats going on here. The OBD went through this years ago. If I throw a baseball at you going 100 mph, even if you are a fat slob, you can dodge it depending on how close I am to you. Does that mean you can move at 100mph? No. It doesnt even mean you can push 3 miles an hour at full sprint.
> 
> Its not a stretch for a man in perfect physical condition with enhanced reaction time, can "dodge a bullet". Pointblank, no but from 20ft like he always does fired by a person with typical human reaction time, fuck yes. Hell anyone could dodge a bullet if the gun were far enough and one could see the bullet. Mythbusters proved it.
> 
> [DLMURL="[DLMURL]Link removed"]its in the fucking wiki[/DLMURL]



Modern bullets go at about 1200ms^-1. Captain America is generally about 10m from the gun and has to move 1m to dogdge the bullets in most of his feats, which would give him a speed of about 120ms^-1. Which is still an awful lot faster than normal humans. Aimdodging will help though. It is technically impossible to save a penalty in professional football without aimdodging, for example, but penalties do get saved an awful lot.


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## eHav (Apr 16, 2012)

hammer said:


> It is both at the same time actually.
> 
> 
> he had no chakra left but did a boss sumon and genjutsed inside manda's mind with NO chakra in like 2 seconds, THAT is PIS



nope, thats not PIS. you seem to not get the concept of plot induced stupidity. its when someone much stronger, or with a clear advantage he can use to win, simply doesnt use it and looses. sasuke beating deidara is more of a plot hole, since it is impossible by naruto standards to summon manda, genjutsu him, hop in his mouth and unsummon it while something is exploding in your face.

PIS is Apocalipse getting beat all the time by people he shouldnt be loosing to for example, just because they have him fight like a retard and not use his full powers.

perfect example is the little speech vilains do when they are about to kill the good guy, just to have it backfire on them. 

late as hell but i had to get this out


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## hammer (Apr 16, 2012)

Ehave that is CIS


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## eHav (Apr 16, 2012)

sasuke beating deidara isnt stupidity, its a plot hole unexplainable by the naruto standards. maybe you just gave a bad example.

PIS and CIS are basicaly the same, plot/character, you can blame it on the plot needing the character to be stupid or causing him to do it, or on the character itself, but the result is the same, it makes someone underperform. well thats how i always saw it. i dont see plot holes as PIS


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## hammer (Apr 16, 2012)

CIS is losing because of thinking your dead parents will hug you only to get stabbed by a puppet.


PIS is ounslaught vs capt or spiderman vs firelord


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## Lina Inverse (Apr 16, 2012)

Red Hulk is PIS personified


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 16, 2012)

Lina Inverse said:


> Red Hulk is PIS personified



Or used to be. he actually became rather balanced powerset wise once somebody other than Loeb started writing him


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## Rene (Apr 16, 2012)

Don't really get why there's so much to argue about in here. In these conditions Kenshin will lose easily.

The peak human argument is just silly and I see no point in delving into that. (because the same derpy argument you've been using for cap could be used for kenshin as well)

There is no question asked that in this case if Kenshin were to hit Cap's shield with his sword using the ougi it would break. Simply because it's Captain America's goddamn shield. You can't argue with that. The idea that Kenshin doesn't swing his sword hard enough to actually be able to break it is stupid. Kenshin knocked a puppet that weighed several hundreds of kgs up into the air so high it reached a guy sitting in a hot air balloon using the ougi.

Kenshin battle precog is not that amazing as some people are trying to make it out. It's really helpful, but if you have experience with it there are ways around it as Hiko shows when he's training Kenshin. Cap again has experience with at least some forms of battle precog so I'm sure he'd be able to work around it.

The most important reason Kenshin would lose though is the simple fact that he has no knowledge. He has no idea how tough Cap's shield actually is or how it works and he doesn't know about Cap's heightened senses. If Kenshin had access to these pieces of information he'd be able to have a chance. (and if it was Hiko instead of Kenshin it'd be a decent fight) He doesn't though, so he wouldn't resort to Ryu Mei Sei nor would he avoid hitting cap's shield.

The battle would probably last a while because of the need for Cap to tag Kenshin (if Kenshin doesn't goes in fiercely that is) but Cap will win in an endurance battle with ease.


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## Aokiji (Apr 17, 2012)

Light Summers said:


> but the problem is, theres no *constinecty* in comics. Cap being a bullet timer isnt even consisent. bullets are supersonic on average right? the guys he fights, Crossbones, Batroc, Red Skull, Zemo, etc. none of them move remotely that fast.





See mods, this is what we mean with trolls. In a regular day, OBD regulars would mock this guy and get banned for it when in reality, the troublemaker is the troll himself: anyone who makes arguments like the ones he has been making is either trolling of beyond dumb.

Seriously dude, ignore the description "peak human": Rogers is too good for Kenshin. The only argument that you actually have is that he SHOULD be peak human but like 99% of peak humans in fiction are super human because having peak strength and peak mobility is not possible.

And Cap being superior than Kenshin does not require his jobbing feats his consistent feats are good enough.


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## Aokiji (Apr 17, 2012)

hammer said:


> CIS is losing because of thinking your dead parents will hug you only to get stabbed by a puppet.
> 
> 
> PIS is ounslaught vs capt or spiderman vs firelord



Actually the former is PIS. The latter is horrible jobbing. CIS would be Sanji refusing to hit Kalipha cuz she has a vag.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 17, 2012)

look at his other posts in the m/a battledome
basing whether a poster is a troll in one thread is pretty unfair


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## Aokiji (Apr 17, 2012)

projectcapsule said:


> look at his other posts in the m/a battledome
> basing whether a poster is a troll in one thread is pretty unfair



I said he's either a troll OR a moron. I didn't specify.


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## Light Summers (Apr 17, 2012)

Aokiji said:


> See mods, this is what we mean with trolls. In a regular day, OBD regulars would mock this guy and get banned for it when in reality, the troublemaker is the troll himself: anyone who makes arguments like the ones he has been making is either trolling of beyond dumb.
> 
> Seriously dude, ignore the description "peak human": Rogers is too good for Kenshin. The only argument that you actually have is that he SHOULD be peak human but like 99% of peak humans in fiction are super human because having peak strength and peak mobility is not possible.
> 
> And Cap being superior than Kenshin does not require his jobbing feats his consistent feats are good enough.



name calling? what are you? 7?

and too good based off of what?
Kenshin is faaaar faster. thats not even debatable. skill wise could be debated but post scans of Caps best skill feats and they wouldnt even compare to Kenshins best skill feats. also, Kenshin can easily cut through metal with a dull (non vibranium) sword which gives him some unknown degree of superhuman strength. 

so what exactly are you basing Cap being superior off of? it aint speed, it aint strength, it aint skill so what is it?


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## Blue (Apr 17, 2012)

Rene said:


> There is no question asked that in this case if Kenshin were to hit Cap's shield with his sword using the ougi it would break. Simply because it's Captain America's goddamn shield.


That is some fucking pro logic there, I salute you.


> You can't argue with that. The idea that Kenshin doesn't swing his sword hard enough to actually be able to break it is stupid.


 Kenshin has hit things that didn't break at full power before. The Sakabato Shinuchi is basically indestructible *by Kenshinverse standards*. You are applying comic book physics. Stop it.

Also for god's sake don't bring up Hiko.


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## Rene (Apr 17, 2012)

Blue said:


> That is some fucking pro logic there, I salute you.
> Kenshin has hit things that didn't break at full power before. The Sakabato Shinuchi is basically indestructible *by Kenshinverse standards*. You are applying comic book physics. Stop it.



Kenshin's cut steel/iron before. Somehow I fail to see how that makes his sword indestructible though. Unlike Captain's America's shield which has only gotten dented or broken by cosmic powers basically(correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not that knowledgeable on Cap).

I'm not applying comic book physics, I'm applying real life physics here. If you swing a stick hard enough at a solid block of concrete. What will break? Irregardless of how hard you swing it you won't destroy the block of concrete all that'll happen is just you breaking the stick.


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## hammer (Apr 17, 2012)

wouldn't it be better to say things far stronger then steal only bent it


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## Blue (Apr 17, 2012)

Rene said:


> Kenshin's cut steel/iron before. Somehow I fail to see how that makes his sword indestructible though. Unlike Captain's America's shield which has only gotten dented or broken by cosmic powers basically(correct me if I'm wrong since I'm not that knowledgeable on Cap).
> 
> I'm not applying comic book physics, I'm applying real life physics here. If you swing a stick hard enough at a solid block of concrete. What will break? Irregardless of how hard you swing it you won't destroy the block of concrete all that'll happen is just you breaking the stick.



Again using the same "stick" comparison as the last guy. The sakabato ain't a stick. The only thing in Kenshin that could ever break it is Hiko's dick.

Here's a better question - if you swing a steel bar at a block of concrete, what breaks?

Nothing does. It's not a hard concept.


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## Rene (Apr 17, 2012)

Blue said:


> Again using the same "stick" comparison as the last guy. The sakabato ain't a stick. The only thing in Kenshin that could ever break it is Hiko's dick.
> 
> Here's a better question - if you swing a steel bar at a block of concrete, what breaks?
> 
> Nothing does. It's not a hard concept.


Actually you would chip off the concrete. Simply because steel has a higher density than concrete. There are certain other factors to it such as the elasticity but the example still holds in this case.

This post kind of shows your ignorance on the subject.


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## Blue (Apr 17, 2012)

Rene said:


> Actually you would chip off the concrete. Simply because steel has a higher density than concrete. There are certain other factors to it such as the elasticity but the example still holds in this case.
> 
> This post kind of shows your ignorance on the subject.



Are you fucking serious? You wanna talk physics?

No, it's not because the steel has a higher density than the concrete. It's because x force will cause y deformation to the concrete, and x force acting on the steel is insufficient to cause y deformation, not because the steel is more dense, but because it has a higher tensile strength, which is I'm guessing the "elasticity" you spoke of.

Note, say, Gold. Over twice the density of concrete but would get the shit kicked out of it in a fight.

On the other hand, you could easily damage the steel bar more than the concrete block depending on the angle of incidence because concrete has a higher compressive strength, but I think we're far enough outside junior high school physics for you already, and far enough outside the Kenshinverse for us both.

But ultimately a normal person swinging steel at concrete will fail to produce dramatic results, which was my point.

There are certain factors present in the concrete that wouldn't be present with a Vibranium block, like the very mild material deformation you speak of, but they're just not relevant.

While it's true that the Vibranium wouldn't mitigate force by deformation, the shield - and the dude it is attached to - are also considerably lighter than an average block of concrete, so unlike the block, Cap is going to stagger. A lot of stagger or a little bit of stagger doesn't matter; the point is that, like the concrete, the ∑F applied directly to the sword will not equal 100% of the ∑F of the system.

Long story short: While the force applied to the sakabato striking Vibranium would be higher than it striking a destructible material, even one Kenshin doesn't have the strength to destroy, it wouldn't be significantly higher given how little damage Kenshin has done to the Sakabato (read: none).


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## Doommaker (Apr 17, 2012)

^^ Damn 

Anyone wanna respond to that? I'm not taking either side for this argument cuz I don't know enough about Captain America, but the argument that the guy above just posted is the very definition of "you just got schooled".


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## Blue (Apr 17, 2012)

Don't get me wrong, Cap wins.


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## EvilMoogle (Apr 17, 2012)

Blue said:


> While it's true that the Vibranium wouldn't mitigate force by deformation, the shield - and the dude it is attached to - are also considerably lighter than an average block of concrete, so unlike the block, Cap is going to stagger


Actually this is incorrect.  One of the properties of Vibranium is that it negates the "vibration" of impact (why I refer to it as "magic" metal as it has several physics defying properties).

Black Panther, for example, has vibranium soles to his boots which not only make his footsteps silent allow him to jump off of heights that should liquify his brain when he lands without being hurt.

This same property is what lets cap block punches from the Hulk or hammer blows from Thor without breaking his arm (or getting a shield-shaped hole put in his torso).

Once the initial impact is done, it is possible to "shove" him and stagger him.  However in my opinion a shoving match between Cap and Kenshin will not end well for Kenshin.

Of course, incidentally, this same property of vibranium means that Kenshin's sword is protected so the whole discussion is somewhat moot 

(Now if Cap strikes Kenshin's sword with his shield it's a different story as it acts differently in this case)


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## Blue (Apr 17, 2012)

The more you know!

Well, replace Vibranium with Adamantium and take it away for future reference next time Kenshin fights Wolverine.

(That would end poorly as well).


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