# It's either Izuna or Obito,and that's that.



## Khazzar (Aug 1, 2012)

No more options,no more theories.

Kakashi and Tobi share the Sharingan dimension. We know Kakashi got Obito's eye,and Tobi uses something similiar and to an greater extent. He has no strain,and he does not lose his eye-sight,meaning Tobi is 100% an Uchiha,and with an EMS in his right eye.

So either it's really Obito,which i doubt cause he was a grown man and experienced with Bijuu and ancient jutsu at the time he fought Minato. The other option is the one i like more,it's Izuna,always second to Madara,Madara's little brother,who's true endings remained a mystery. Eye robber and schemer.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

Why would Izuna need to sneak back into the Uchiha compound to read the stone tablet?


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## Mateush (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Why would Izuna need to sneak back into the Uchiha compound to read the stone tablet?



1. He upgraded his eye to get more info from the tablet.
2. One of his hideouts, since Itachi said only Uchihas know that place.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

Mateush said:


> 1. He upgraded his eye to get more info from the tablet.



Izuna already had the MS when he was alive.  Only way to get EMS is to steal back his eyes from Madara.  Tobi's jutsus are nothing like Madara's.



Mateush said:


> 2. One of his hideouts, since Itachi said only Uchihas know that place.



What? Itachi specifically stated that he saw Izuna reading the tablet at the shrine.  A shrine is not a hideout.


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## Edo Madara (Aug 1, 2012)

Izuna stole obito eye, awakened MS, using senju dna to prevented blindness and gives him more chakra

there's many hints about it, read my post =



Edo Madara said:


> Well I just come up with my new Tobi theory so here it is =
> 
> 
> *-The Man who know everything*
> ...


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## u8mychipz (Aug 1, 2012)

i duno OP people that make "sure" guesses like that are usually wrong... it could be future kakashi for all we know.. or a piece of madara's consciousness


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

My goodness.

Stop putting Izuna in the mix already.

*Mask cracks*

"Oh hi everyone, my name is Izuna but none of you know who I am. I just happen to be Madara's brother, to whom I gave my own eyes.

Despite the fact that none of you know who I am, for some reason I still decided to put a mask on."

Kakashi & co's reaction "????????????????????????????"

Hahaha.


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> My goodness.
> 
> Stop putting Izuna in the mix already.
> 
> ...



Can I hear your explanation of how Obito and Madara know each other please? Also on how Kurama recognized Tobi the night of the attack. Why Obito knows everything about Madara's life.


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## Awesome (Aug 1, 2012)

Kurama could have recognized Tobi because Obito was a part of Minato's squad, and it's certainly possible Kurama saw Obito through the eyes of Kushina. That's an easy explanation for how Kurama knew Obito.

As for Madara knowing Tobi? No possible explanation unless Madara managed to extend his lifespan with Hashirama's DNA and through Zetsu goo. The only other theory out there besides this one that has any sort of merit is the Izuna theory, and the basis behind him staying alive is the same way Madara could have stayed alive. If Izuna could stay alive that long, why can't Madara?


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## Yuna (Aug 1, 2012)

Kurama has Negative Emotion Sensing powers, not Chakra Sensing powers. Tobi was masked. It was impossible for Kurama to have been able to recognize Tobi if he was Obito on That Night 17 Years Ago unless you think that Obito was full of hatred while alive.


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> My goodness.
> 
> Stop putting Izuna in the mix already.
> 
> ...





Stop being a dick. Izuna with Tobi's eye makes more sense then Obito anyway

- he knows Uchiha history, lineage and secrets
- DB3 gives Tobi & Izuna an height and weight that nearly matches --> Izuna 174.8 cm and 55.9 kg while Tobi is 175.0 cm and 55.9kg
- the comments about Rinnegan being "his eyes" makes sense. Cuz if Madara took his eyes upgraded them to Rinnegan then it being Izuna's eyes makes sense
- Tobi was around _before_ Obito anyway, as evident by all the stuff the masked man did under Madara's name in the past
- Long haired masked man hairstyle matches Izuna's hairstyle
- Izuna being the villain with Madara matches with Kishimoto's whole "brothers theme" that has been going since part II

My money is on it being Izuna with Obito's eye


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## takL (Aug 1, 2012)

izuna is dead according to madara who is acquainted with tobi.


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## Edo Madara (Aug 1, 2012)

^ 
yup if itachi/sasule are good uchiha bros then madara/izuna are bad uchiha bros


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

takL said:


> izuna is dead according to madara who is acquainted with tobi.



They know better than Madara himself!



And Madara who is acquianted with Tobi doesn't know that Tobi is Izuna, his own brother.

LOL!


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Kurama could have recognized Tobi because Obito was a part of Minato's squad, and it's certainly possible Kurama saw Obito through the eyes of Kushina. That's an easy explanation for how Kurama knew Obito.
> 
> As for Madara knowing Tobi? No possible explanation unless Madara managed to extend his lifespan with Hashirama's DNA and through Zetsu goo. The only other theory out there besides this one that has any sort of merit is the Izuna theory, and the basis behind him staying alive is the same way Madara could have stayed alive. If Izuna could stay alive that long, why can't Madara?



The explanation of Kurama knowing Obito through Kushina is retarded. Kurama probably recognized Madara's chakra through Tobi.

Izuna makes the most sense. Obito has no reason to be this evil.

_edit: He makes the most sense out of these two possibilities. I wouldn't be surprised if it was neither. Bar Obito's sharingan._


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## Yuna (Aug 1, 2012)

takL said:


> izuna is dead according to madara who is acquainted with tobi.


And Madara would never lie, now would he?

Also, wasn't Madara's words "What did my brother die for?"? Several people have died and come back to life in Naruto.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> My goodness.
> 
> Stop putting Izuna in the mix already.
> 
> ...



This same horseshit line again?

Any possibility that the mask is purely defensive and not there to hide his identity from the 4 people in front of him?

Tobi's ONLY vulnerability is his head. Everything we've seen otherwise says that he's made of Zetsu Goo. It stands to reason that guarding his head  would be a good idea if he wants to survive a war.

Tobi couldn't have known that he'd be squarely up against Kakashi. Everyone else who could possibly remember Obito is long dead. Why hide the fact that you're Obito if only 1 person on the planet knows what he looks like, and that 1 person isn't even guaranteed to match up against you.

The mask is not for identity concealing purposes. It's a defensive item.

Your argument is like saying Tobi only has the fan to try to look like Madara.


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

You're grasping at straws.

Madara would have no reason to lie about that.

You people see lies everywhere and take other statements at face value just because it suits your argument.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> What? Itachi specifically stated that he saw Izuna reading the tablet at the shrine.  A shrine is not a hideout.



It was a hideout. It was specifically stated to be one on multiple occasions. Once as a hideout for the Uchiha (Konoha Police Force) to conduct meetings, and another time it was expressly shown in the background when Tobi was talking about the Uchiha planning a revolt.

It may not have been Tobi's hideout, but it was a hideout.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> You're grasping at straws.
> 
> Madara would have no reason to lie about that.
> 
> You people see lies everywhere and take other statements at face value just because it suits your argument.



Pot meet kettle.

That's every Tobi theorist, especially Tobito fans.


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 1, 2012)

Madara makes the claim about Izuna dying and him leaving his power to him.

And this is true, Izuna did die. Doesnt mean he is *still* dead. In fact Rinnegan is knows for Reincarnation and Outher Path that hover between life and death and shit. If Madara achieveed Rinnegan shortly befofe his death, then most likely he revived his brother too. 

The upper panel I posted in no way disputes that Tobi cant be Izuna
The comment Madara made was more in context to show what he had to do to gain more power


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## Daryoon (Aug 1, 2012)

Acts goofy, makes up silly jutsu, but turns serious when the sharingan comes out? Wears a mask people (both in-story and audience) have been wanting to see removed for years? Has tutored Sasuke and been an influence on his growth? Has the power to warp space/time?

Who am I talking about, Tobi or Kakashi?

And that is why Tobi _has_ to be Obito. He is Kakashi's mirror. Only by overcoming Tobi, and thus his own past, can Kakashi achieve his full character development.

People obsess too much over nitpicky details, forgetting that this is a story, and Tobi being anyone but Obito does nothing to service the narrative.


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Tobi told Kabuto that Nagato's eyes were originally his own. How are they Obito's? Explain that to me please.

Plus for everyone complaining and saying Izuna is dead, did Madara not showcase his knowledge of Edo Tensei seals? Not to mention he has the Rinnegan.


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## Sareth (Aug 1, 2012)

It's the Elder Son in Obito's body. Believe me.


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> Acts goofy, makes up silly jutsu, but turns serious when the sharingan comes out? Wears a mask people (both in-story and audience) have been wanting to see removed for years? Has tutored Sasuke and been an influence on his growth? Has the power to warp space/time?
> 
> Who am I talking about, Tobi or Kakashi?
> 
> ...



What a great post my friend.

Their mind can't grasp such simple concepts.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> It may not have been Tobi's hideout, but it was a hideout.



Yes, and?  It doesn't matter if the Uchiha were using it as a hideout.


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> Acts goofy, makes up silly jutsu, but turns serious when the sharingan comes out? Wears a mask people (both in-story and audience) have been wanting to see removed for years? Has tutored Sasuke and been an influence on his growth? Has the power to warp space/time?
> 
> Who am I talking about, Tobi or Kakashi?
> 
> ...



What the fuck? Kakashi isn't the main character. His full character development has nothing to do with Tobi.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Tobi told Kabuto that Nagato's eyes were originally his own. How are they Obito's? Explain that to me please.



Maybe Madara embedded Uchiha eyes into Nagato as a test to see if that would awaken the Rinnegan.  Maybe he promised the eyes to his loyal apprentice, Tobi, before he died.

Or maybe Tobi was just lying in the same way he was lying to a dying Konan.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> He is Kakashi's mirror. Only by overcoming Tobi, and thus his own past, can Kakashi achieve his full character development.



Why does Kakashi have to do anything? He's a side character. Kakashi Gaiden ended 350+ chapters ago. His character is plenty developed after nearly 600 chapters.

Kakashi is there because Naruto always has someone senior to himself there to keep Naruto in line and/or do all of the thinking for him. Every single fight, without fail.


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> What the fuck? Kakashi isn't the main character. His full character development has nothing to do with Tobi.



It's Naruto who has nothing to do with Obito.


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## Daryoon (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> What the fuck? Kakashi isn't the main character. His full character development has nothing to do with Tobi.



The main characters are Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura and Kakashi. If this simple fact is lost on people, I've no idea how they can make elaborate theories about what's going on.


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Maybe Madara embedded Uchiha eyes into Nagato as a test to see if that would awaken the Rinnegan.  Maybe he promised the eyes to his loyal apprentice, Tobi, before he died.
> 
> Or maybe Tobi was just lying in the same way he was lying to a dying Konan.



Yeah, all 3 of those excuses sound like bullshit. None of you people can convince me with your half-ass reasons.

Obito claims Nagato's eyes to be his own. When Obito only had 1 eye. That makes no sense. You people have the worst theories.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> It's Naruto who has nothing to do with Obito.



Exactly. This manga has nothing to do with Obito, thanks for agreeing.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> The main characters are Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura and Kakashi. If this simple fact is lost on people, I've no idea how they can make elaborate theories about what's going on.



LOL. Oh Yeah? How'd that work out for Sakura being a "main character"?


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Yeah, all 3 of those excuses sound like bullshit. None of you people can convince me with your half-ass reasons.



Why not?  We know that Madara has something to do with Nagato...


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

Naruto the character, not the manga.

Sakura is still part of the main cast so to speak, even though she barely gets screen time as of now.

Daryoon is right on that.


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Aug 1, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Kurama could have recognized Tobi because Obito was a part of Minato's squad, and it's certainly possible Kurama saw Obito through the eyes of Kushina. That's an easy explanation for how Kurama knew Obito.
> 
> As for Madara knowing Tobi? No possible explanation unless Madara managed to extend his lifespan with Hashirama's DNA and through Zetsu goo. The only other theory out there besides this one that has any sort of merit is the Izuna theory, and the basis behind him staying alive is the same way Madara could have stayed alive. If Izuna could stay alive that long, why can't Madara?



Actually, Kurama was referring to Tobi as Madara well after he was revealed as simply Nobody. Whoever Tobi is is a mixture of Madara's conciousness (or another Uchiha with comparable chakra to Madara just like Sasuke's), Hashirama and Zetsu's cells in which case the timeline and the potential in power growth doesn't make sense for it to be Obito...


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Why not?  We know that Madara has something to do with Nagato...



And you have no proof that Obito has anything to do with either. When Izuna has something to do with Madara. Especially when it comes to eyes.


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## gershwin (Aug 1, 2012)

Obito, possessed by Juubi`s evil spirit. Thats it 
They will remove it from Obito`s body and Kakashi gets his character development. But still won`t get rid of Juubi/whoever evil ghost so he can be the finale villain in other form.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> And you have no proof that Obito has anything to do with either.



Except for all of his personal knowledge of Kakashi and his eye ability is a  mirror of Kamui...  He can even cancel Kamui.


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## Easley (Aug 1, 2012)

Izuna makes more sense than Obito, but unless Madara shows up there's no-one who can recognize him. That's a bad reveal. However, it would certainly explain how he knows so much about Madara. Acting can only go so far, you need intimate details in order to fool people. I can't forget his 'arm clench' either - that didn't seem like part of his act.

Obito's only reason to appear is to shock Kakashi. Once that's over I'm not sure what he brings to the story, and he's gonna 'die' again. Except this time it won't be as a hero, but as a reviled villain Kakashi wants to kill. Some reunion that would be.

I have no problem with Tobi using Obito's sharingan... but I'd really dislike Obito in mind and body.


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## Mayaki (Aug 1, 2012)

People might mistake Izuna for Madara. They are brothers after all and as very few pics were seen from Izuna, we do not really know wether they look alike or not. 
I can see the mask break and a Madaralike face appears. People are like "WTF? How can THAT be!? Are there two Madaras!?"
And then he tells them that he is Izuna, the one who was forced to sarcrifize his eyes for the sake of the Uchiha and after all for Konoha. That would explain why Tobi has a grudge against the Uchiha, why he seeks all of their eyes, why he calls himself nobody (because he was forgotten by history anyway).

If we would say that the longhaired and shorthaired Madara are not the same (which is part of the Obito theory if I remember right) then (!) they HAVE to look alike because Kisame recognized them as the same. 

Thus Izuna would have a shocking impact on the reader..


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Except for all of his personal knowledge of Kakashi and his eye ability is a  mirror of Kamui...  He can even cancel Kamui.



That has nothing to do with Madara or Nagato.

Can you pay attention please? I asked how is it possible for Obito to claim that Nagato's eyes were his own when he only had 1 eye. Given that Kakashi has the other?


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> That has nothing to do with Madara or Nagato.



That has to do with Tobi and Obito.  They obviously have a connection.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

The manga is not titled "Konoha Ninja's" or "Team Seven" or any of that nonsense. It's called "Naruto" and everyone else is a side-character.

Kakashi is no more important than the J-man in the storyline. Even less important, actually. The same with Sakura. If you put them as "main characters" simply because they were introduced before some others, then sure. I guess Mizuki is more important than both of them.


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## takL (Aug 1, 2012)

Yuna said:


> And Madara would never lie, now would he?
> 
> Also, wasn't Madara's words "What did my brother die for?"?



no he didnt say that.
and 
do u really think he was lying when he said "my brother is dead and only these eyes of mine remain."


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> That has to do with Tobi and Obito.  They obviously have a connection.



That wasn't my question. 

I asked how is it possible for Obito (Tobi) to claim that Nagato's eyes were originally his own when he only has ONE eye.

Stop butting into my conversations if you don't know what we are talking about.


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

This is Kakashi's fight, if that's not clear enough? so you can keep on blabbering about Naruto all you want.

The manga title is meaningless.


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> This is Kakashi's fight, if that's not clear enough? so you can keep on blabbering about Naruto all you want.
> 
> *The manga title is meaningless*.



Get lost man.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Sutol said:


> This is Kakashi's fight, if that's not clear enough? so you can keep on blabbering about Naruto all you want.
> 
> The manga title is meaningless.



Obvious troll is obvious.

You're saying Naruto was only there to clear out the Jinchuriki's and Tailed Beasts so that Kakashi can fight his dead friend?

[sarcasm]Sounds plausible.... [/sarcasm]


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> I asked how is it possible for Obito (Tobi) to claim that Nagato's eyes were originally his own when he only has ONE eye.



And I answered that already  to you.  It's like going round and round and round....

And if Obito and Tobi aren't the same, as the Tobito theorists claim, then Nagato's eyes would not be Tobi's originally.


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> And I answered that already  to you.  It's like going round and round and round....
> 
> And if Obito and Tobi aren't the same, as the Tobito theorists claim, then Nagato's eyes would not be Tobi's originally.




Yeah and I already said all those reasons sound like bullshit. None of you can convince me with your half-ass reasons. 

Madara promised his loyal apprentice? Yeah ok. Can't wait to read that in the manga.


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> Obvious troll is obvious.
> 
> You're saying Naruto was only there to clear out the Jinchuriki's and Tailed Beasts so that Kakashi can fight his dead friend?
> 
> [sarcasm]Sounds plausible.... [/sarcasm]



Naruto was there to recieve all those power-ups from the Bijuu's and become best buddies with Kurama. 

If that's not obvious.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Madara promised his loyal apprentice?



Or Tobi was lying.  Could be anything.


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## Synn (Aug 1, 2012)

It's Kagami.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> And I answered that already  to you.  It's like going round and round and round....



You really didn't answer him. You responded to him, but you didn't answer him. You posted a few maybe's and then some theory that doesn't make much sense outside of your own head.


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## Daryoon (Aug 1, 2012)

Easley said:


> Obito's only reason to appear is to shock Kakashi. Once that's over I'm not sure what he brings to the story, and he's gonna 'die' again. Except this time it won't be as a hero, but as a reviled villain Kakashi wants to kill. Some reunion that would be.



Yes, I sure can't imagine what use having an Uchiha, once good, but devoured by their cycle of hatred could possibly bring to a story where a major theme is about overcoming the cycle of hatred; where the protagonist is driven by his desire to save a friend (and the world) from the cycle of hatred; where the ultimate power is an ancient entity said to be an amalgam of hatred, and the fusion of nine beings who themselves have been locked in a continuous cycle of hatred.

Nope. Can't see the narrative or thematic potential in Tobito _at all_.

Let's not even start with the whole 'name' thing that's been going on lately.


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## gabzilla (Aug 1, 2012)

I doubt it's Izuna. No direct connection to the main characters. 

Besides, I think the biggest clue is that Kishimoto created a Gaiden to show what happened to Kakashi's team. You have to remember this is a manga for kids. Who are they going to remember? Kakashi's teammate or Madara's brother?


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Or Tobi was lying.  Could be anything.



No. I believe that Tobi was telling the truth when he said Nagato's eyes were originally his. Especially since Tobi knew that Kabuto already knew that he wasn't actually Madara. He had no reason to lie.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

ceralux said:


> No. I believe that Tobi was telling the truth when he said Nagato's eyes were originally his. Especially since Tobi knew that Kabuto already knew that he wasn't actually Madara. He had no reason to lie.



Well, I think that's just bullshit.


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## Phemt (Aug 1, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> I doubt it's Izuna. No direct connection to the main characters.
> 
> Besides, I think the biggest clue is that Kishimoto created a Gaiden to show what happened to Kakashi's team. You have to remember this is a manga for kids. Who are they going to remember? Kakashi's teammate or Madara's brother?



Clearly Izuna who had 2 panels dedicated to him!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

xD


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> Yes, I sure can't imagine what use having an Uchiha, once good, but devoured by their cycle of hatred could possibly bring to a story where a major theme is about overcoming the cycle of hatred;



You mean Izuna, right?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 1, 2012)

Obito was a good person who just wanted to prove himself to the village and Rin another naruto basically. Tobi is a crazy, demented, butt hurt individual who, Wants to mind fuck the world.

I find it insulting to obito that people think they are the same person. Yea obito survived, turned evil, and become all powerful and received all this knowledge Ect I can not put into words how retarded this is from a story standpoint.


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## ceralux (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Well, I think that's just bullshit.



But Madara promising Obito the rinnegan isn't? LOL I'm done here.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Well, I think that's just bullshit.



Right... the things you make up are more believable to you than the conversation in the manga.

Makes perfect sense.


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## Corvus666 (Aug 1, 2012)

Very interesting OP, also have you ever thought of this 
TOBI =
T- The
O- Other
B- Brother
I-  Izuna

imagine if it had been hiding in front of our eyes all this time..


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## Mayaki (Aug 1, 2012)

Pein was introduced without anything before. Kishi also made a huge secret out of it.
Izuna would have an impact if he looked like Madara which is possible. "What? Are there two Madaras? WTF? Confused as hell!!11one"
Easy peasy. Obito is just as bullshit as every other theory but one of it will eventualy come true.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Obito was a good person who just wanted to prove himself to the village and Rin another naruto basically. Tobi is a crazy, demented, butt hurt individual who, Wants to mind fuck the world.
> 
> I find it insulting that people think they are the same person.



Yeah, and Itachi said that if Naruto wasn't careful, he'd turn into the next Tobi.


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## Daryoon (Aug 1, 2012)

Corvus666 said:


> Very interesting OP, also have you ever thought of this
> TOBI =
> T- The
> O- Other
> ...



It was. Like this.
Tobi: トビ
Obito: オビト


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## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Yeah, and Itachi said that if Naruto wasn't careful, he'd turn into the next Tobi.



He said this to make Naruto accept help from his friends.

This is completely contradictory your Tobito theory, because the Tobito theory REQUIRES lots of help from friends to turn Obito into Tobi.

Your own point refutes your argument.


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## gabzilla (Aug 1, 2012)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Obito was a good person who just wanted to prove himself to the village and Rin another naruto basically. Tobi is a crazy, demented, butt hurt individual who, Wants to mind fuck the world.
> 
> I find it insulting to obito that people think they are the same person.



Sasuke was a cute kid that loved his brother.

Gaara was a cute kid that loved his uncle.

Nagato was a cute kid that wanted to protect his friends.

Do I see a pattern here? 

Not even bloody Kyuubi was able to escape it.



Sutol said:


> Clearly Izuna who had 2 panels dedicated to him!!!!!!
> 
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> xD



Clearly


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## Edo Madara (Aug 1, 2012)

Mayaki said:


> Pein was introduced without anything before. Kishi also made a huge secret out of it.
> Izuna would have an impact if he looked like Madara which is possible. "What? Are there two Madaras? WTF? Confused as hell!!11one"
> Easy peasy. Obito is just as bullshit as every other theory but one of it will eventualy come true.



THIS
seriously tobito will be just another BS like orocimaru revived and magical powerfull scroll which sugetsu found by accident, its feels so forced and doesn't make any sense


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## Corvus666 (Aug 1, 2012)

Possibly it just makes me beyond frustrated that theres a break next week


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## Easley (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> Yes, I sure can't imagine what use having an Uchiha, once good, but devoured by their cycle of hatred could possibly bring to a story where a major theme is about overcoming the cycle of hatred; where the protagonist is driven by his desire to save a friend (and the world) from the cycle of hatred; where the ultimate power is an ancient entity said to be an amalgam of hatred, and the fusion of nine beings who themselves have been locked in a continuous cycle of hatred.
> 
> Nope. Can't see the narrative or thematic potential in Tobito _at all_.


I agree with all that actually. What I'm wondering is why Obito fans _want_ it to happen? The good person who saved Kakashi is now a hated enemy and will probably die a pathetic death. That's ruins his character, imo. His final scene in Kakashi Gaiden was heroic and touching. I'd prefer that it ended there instead of returning as Tobi and hatching a crazy plan to genjutsu the world.


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## gabzilla (Aug 1, 2012)

Easley said:


> I agree with all that actually. What I'm wondering is why Obito fans _want_ it to happen? The good person who saved Kakashi is now a hated enemy and will probably die a pathetic death. That's ruins his character, imo. His final scene in Kakashi Gaiden was heroic and touching. I'd prefer that it ended there instead of returning as Tobi and hatching a crazy plan to genjutsu the world.



I'm not particularly attached to the theory. I like the way Obito's story ended. But that doesn't mean I can't see the signs that indicate Tobi could be a corrupted version of Obito.


----------



## Chuck (Aug 1, 2012)

I think we should still leave the "future Kakashi" option on the table.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 1, 2012)

Easley said:


> I agree with all that actually. What I'm wondering is why Obito fans _want_ it to happen? The good person who saved Kakashi is now a hated enemy and will probably die a pathetic death. That's ruins his character, imo. His final scene in Kakashi Gaiden was heroic and touching. I'd prefer that it ended there instead of returning as Tobi and hatching a crazy plan to genjutsu the world.



and I for the life of me can't fathom why you wouldn't want it to be obito. Some random ass nobody or uchiha that received 1 or 2 panels as a whole... has no impact.

Obito would obviously get redeemed and instead of dying under a rock, this time he could go out as a true hero.

meh w/e, to each his own.


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> But that doesn't mean I can't see the signs that indicate Tobi could be a corrupted version of Obito.



There are less plot holes having one of Kakashi's ninja dogs be Tobi.


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## Kanae (Aug 1, 2012)

Easley said:


> I agree with all that actually. What I'm wondering is why Obito fans _want_ it to happen? The good person who saved Kakashi is now a hated enemy and will probably die a pathetic death. That's ruins his character, imo. His final scene in Kakashi Gaiden was heroic and touching. I'd prefer that it ended there instead of returning as Tobi and hatching a crazy plan to genjutsu the world.


As an Obito fan myself, that's pretty much why I'm torn about the matter, despite thinking it is probably him behind that mask


----------



## auem (Aug 1, 2012)

takL said:


> izuna is dead according to madara who is acquainted with tobi.



all madara said was his brother gave him his own eye before his death.....but that doesn't stop him bringing him back with rinnegan....a man who had plotted his own resurrection via rinnegan had it within his power...

moreover madara lied there...he 'stole' izuna's eye(i believe itachi's words are cannon in this manga),yet he put it like his brother gave up willingly....

tobi said the same thing but he cringed while saying that...sasuke noticed that too...


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Aug 1, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> The main characters are Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura and Kakashi. If this simple fact is lost on people, I've no idea how they can make elaborate theories about what's going on.



Sakura stopped being a main character a long time ago. Even Hinata is more important than her right now.


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 1, 2012)

I also agree that Obito is a possibility. If time stops in the other dimension of course. And I also think that it would be cool to hear that story Kishi has to tell about his drastical change then. But it is not a proven fact, it is not even NEAR to be proven. People in this board like to act like that though.


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## Daryoon (Aug 1, 2012)

Easley said:


> I agree with all that actually. What I'm wondering is why Tobito fans _want_ it to happen? The good person who saved Kakashi is now a hated enemy and will probably die a pathetic death. That's ruins his character, imo. His final scene in Kakashi Gaiden was heroic and touching. I'd prefer that it ended there instead of returning as Tobi and hatching a crazy plan to genjutsu the world.



He can still have a heroic ending. If we presume Tobi=Obito, it means he's had a very fucked up life, and that he's so intent on hiding/denying his identity (this ties in with the 'name' thing: Kabuto never knew his identity; the bijuu were denied identity by others; Tobi denies his own) suggests he's maybe even _ashamed_ of what he's become. Very much "everything's gone wrong, I can't go home again, I may as well continue on in Madara's footsteps and unite this suffering world in eternal illusion - at least then I'll be free".

In other words, he's reflects what Sasuke could well become. We know he still holds Team 7 in his heart (see: battle with Killer B), but he's desperate to sever those ties, deny his own past (see how this relates to Tobito also?). If Kakashi can't save Obito, Naruto can't save Sasuke, and no one can save the world. Which is what this is ultimately all about.

Vague guess: Tobi planned to use Zetsu spores to drain the allied army's chakra for the purposes of his plan - Obito instead uses it to give Naruto/Sasuke a final recharge for their final attack on Juubi!Madara. Standard SPIRIT BOMB and all that. Voil?, Obito gets to die heroically (Madara is clearly going to push him aside now he no longer needs him).


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Izuna with Tobi's eye makes more sense then Obito anyway.


This and this disagree with that notion.



> - he knows Uchiha history, lineage and secrets


So?



> - DB3 gives Tobi & Izuna an height and weight that nearly matches --> Izuna 174.8 cm and 55.9 kg while Tobi is 175.0 cm and 55.9kg


That's more destructive than supportive. If Tobi was meant to be Izuna, why give out Izuna's height and weight and give it away. Kishi was most likely just trying to throw us off.



> - the comments about Rinnegan being "his eyes" makes sense. Cuz if Madara took his eyes upgraded them to Rinnegan then it being Izuna's eyes makes sense


The Rinnegan were also Madara's eyes once he took them from Izuna. So it also applies to Madara. And Tobi was posing as Madara at the time.



> - Tobi was around _before_ Obito anyway, as evident by all the stuff the masked man did under Madara's name in the past


Show me PROOF that he was around before Obito's time and I'll believe you. The earliest Tobi was confirmed to have appeared was when he fought Minato. That is certainly not before Obito's time. I hate when people say Tobi was around before Obito's time when they have no proof of that.



> - Long haired masked man hairstyle matches Izuna's hairstyle


So? First of all, no it doesn't. Second of all, what does hair have to do with this?




> - Izuna being the villain with Madara matches with Kishimoto's whole "brothers theme" that has been going since part II


It just wouldn't fit though as Izuna being final villain. Izuna wasn't named in the manga, he had no lines, and we've only seen him in a few panels and wouldn't recognize his face. Why the emphasis on his face and even being teased by the mask cracking if it's just going to be Izuna, who would have had no reason to wear a mask if his face looked so similar to Madara's.

Madara also knows Tobi and yet still said Izuna is dead and that all that is left of him is his eyes. Going by the tense in his sentence, Izuna is currently dead and all that is currently left of him is his eyes. Thus izuna is currently dead and tobi is currently alive. So Tobi =/= Izuna.

Happy?



> My money is on it being Izuna with Obito's eye


Your money is placed wrongly then.

How would Izuna come across a bunch of boulders and just assume that there was a crushed Uchiha teenager under there? And then dig up every single rock, steal the eye from under an enormous boulder, come back out, and put all the boulders back in place so no one would find that crushed Uchiha teenager's body?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 1, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> THIS
> seriously tobito will be just another BS like orocimaru revived and magical powerfull scroll which sugetsu found by accident, its feels so forced and doesn't make sense



And every other theory with unnamed characters like Izuna(unnamed in manga) and Elder son or future ____ is not forced?  

Let me ask you this.  Why do you think Tobi's MS pattern is hidden, How Kakashi obtained MS, Rin's death is a mystery, Kakashi suddenly is in a battle with god tier characters and unlimited stamina, and his powers offset Tobi etc?

Thing is even if Tobi or Madara is the final villian it's known that the final conflict is Naruto/Sasuke.  Not to mention if anything Tobi has more conflict with Naruto than Kakashi even if he's Obito.  Unless you don't count killing his parents as not serious. Obito died friends with Kakashi.  

The masked man at earliest appeared 16 years ago to a young adult or late teenaged Kisame who is a only 2 years older than Obito.  Obito was crushed 17 years prior to now. 

It's almost certain that Rin was killed in the 2 years between Obito being crushed and the Kurama attack because all non-Uchiha where there and Rin was not shown.  I wouldn't be suprised if Madara or Obito killed Rin.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 1, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Sasuke was a cute kid that loved his brother.
> 
> Gaara was a cute kid that loved his uncle.
> 
> ...



They all had various reasons for becoming evil, obito had half his body crushed gave up his eye and had more rocks fall on him, so when he magically survived he just said fuck the village/clan, and all my friends then became strong enough to fight minato/mind rape the mizukage Ect sounds reasonable to me. Obito had a lot of potential you know.


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

All Obito theories rely on the following premise:

The alternate dimension's time is slowed. Obito exploited this to gain super abilities in the year between when he died and when he attacked Minato.

We know from two things, this cannot possibly be true:


1) If time slowed down in that dimension, Sasuke wouldn't still look a little beat-up when he gets spit back out to fight Danzo. Karin wouldn't still be tired. 

2)If time slowed down in the other dimension, Tobi would've been able to avoid this. 

All Tobito threads are null and void until the timeline is explained without time slowing in that other dimension.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> And every other theory with unnamed characters like Izuna(unnamed in manga) and Elder son or future ____ is not forced?
> 
> Let me ask you this.  Why do you think Tobi's MS pattern is hidden, How Kakashi obtained MS, Rin's death is a mystery, Kakashi suddenly is in a battle with god tier characters and unlimited stamina, and his powers offset Tobi etc?
> 
> ...


Lol, why/how would/could Obito kill the girl who's death he wants to avenge?


Anonymouse said:


> The alternate dimension's time is slowed. Obito exploited this to gain super abilities in the year between when he died and when he attacked Minato.


The time preiod between Obito's "death" and Tobi vs. Minato was more like 2-3 years. How is there a problem there?



> All Tobito threads are null and void until the timeline is explained without time slowing in that other dimension.


The timeline can easily be explained without time slowing in that other dimension.


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 1, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The time preiod between obito's "death" and Tobi vs. Minato was more like 2-3 years. How is there a problem there?
> 
> The timeline can easily be explained without time slowing in that other dimension.



It was not several years. It's been explained here dozens of times. I'm not digging it up again.

No current theories have explained Tobito logically and realistically without time-shifting.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 1, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> All Obito theories rely on the following premise:
> 
> The alternate dimension's time is slowed. Obito exploited this to gain super abilities in the year between when he died and when he attacked Minato.
> 
> ...



What super abilities does Tobi have?  He has used two ninjutsu ever.  Everything else is Sharingan/Rinnegan based doujutsu.  Naruto/Sasuke have gained serious and vast powers in no time why is it impossible for Obito to develop a two doujutsu S/T and Kurama control?

The only thing in Obito timeline that's hard to answer is what we assume about Nagato that he's has Madara's eyes and Madara would be dead.  There are theories to that like Nagato being given Uchiha eyes to mature in Rinnegan because he's Senju related or him actually being Madara's with a Uzumaki.


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## Raventhal (Aug 1, 2012)

> Lol, why/how would/could Obito kill the girl who's death he wants to avenge?



Since when has Obito wanted revenge exactly?  He sounds more depressed.

Killing Rin on accident would be a reason for him not to return the village or Madara finding out who was closest to him and killing her(or genjutsu Obito to kill) to awaken his MS.


----------



## NW (Aug 1, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> It was not several years. It's been explained here dozens of times. I'm not digging it up again.


 Timeline studies have shown that it was closer to 2-3 years.



> No current theories have explained Tobito logically and realistically without time-shifting.


yes they have. Look at  post.



Raventhal said:


> Since when has Obito wanted revenge exactly?  He sounds more depressed.
> 
> Killing Rin on accident would be a reason for him not to return the village or Madara finding out who was closest to him and killing her(or genjutsu Obito to kill) to awaken his MS.


I'm just saying that Rin's death would probably be a pivotal part of his motive. Him killing Rin would seem odd and ruin the sympathy of his character. I don't see how he could kill her on accident.

Maybe Madara killed her.


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 1, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> There are less plot holes having one of Kakashi's ninja dogs be Tobi.



Whatever lets you sleep at night, my friend. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *They all had various reasons for becoming evil*, obito had half his body crushed gave up his eye and had more rocks fall on him, so when he magically survived he just said fuck the village/clan, and all my friends then became strong enough to fight minato/mind rape the mizukage Ect sounds reasonable to me. Obito had a lot of potential you know.



And what makes you think Obito won't?


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## Raventhal (Aug 1, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Timeline studies have shown that it was closer to 2-3 years.
> 
> yes they have. Look at  post.
> 
> ...



Madara manipulation or genjutsu.  Think like what we saw with Kabuto and "Mother."  It seems right up Madara's alley to try to force Obito's MS.  

I think him being tricked into killing Rin would lend to his sympathy.

Though Madara kiling him could allow him some redemption if he find out.  

Lol, my fan fiction.  Tobi is defeated and outed as Obito.  Madara appears and tells a defeated Obito he was always weak and he killed or manipulated Rin's death by him.  A dying Obito takes Madara to other dimension and dies sealing invincible Madara forever lol.


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## Combine (Aug 1, 2012)

What if it's both?


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 1, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol, my fan fiction.  Tobi is defeated and outed as Obito.  Madara appears and tells a defeated Obito he was always weak and he killed or manipulated Rin's death by him.  A dying Obito takes Madara to other dimension and dies sealing invincible Madara forever lol.



Wait, isn't that Star Was ending?  That would make Obito Darth Vader, Rin as Padm?, Madara the Emperor...


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 1, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> This and this disagree with that notion.



How do these links diagree with the notion that Izuna has Obito's eye?



> So?



Tobi know quite a lot of the shinobi world. Even if we left out all the Uchiha secrets (assuming those could be read from RS Tablet at Uchiha shrine) then Tobi still knows a lot about the shinobi world. Things from the past that only people like Madara (or someone who was alive in that era ) would have know 



> That's more destructive than supportive. If Tobi was meant to be Izuna, why give out Izuna's height and weight and give it away. Kishi was most likely just trying to throw us off.



For the casual reader Obito = Tobi is waaay more likely then Izuna being Tobi, hence for the reasons you mentioned: Obito is more known. Espcially since Obito = Tobi backwards and the MS powers he shares with Kakashi. Its *too obvious* for Tobi to be Obito

Not to mention Kishi throwing us off with a red herring with DB info? Highly unlikely. In fact, in DB2 (back in 2005!!!) Kishi already revealed Itachi had only 1 S-rank mission. For someone of his level that was a bitt suspicious. And now we know (since 2008!!) what that single S-rank mission of Itachi was. 



> The Rinnegan were also Madara's eyes once he took them from Izuna. So it also applies to Madara. And Tobi was posing as Madara at the time



I'll give you this one. 



> Show me PROOF that he was around before Obito's time and I'll believe you. The earliest Tobi was confirmed to have appeared was when he fought Minato. That is certainly not before Obito's time. I hate when people say Tobi was around before Obito's time when they have no proof of that.



When Madara was revived he mentioned Nagato being a "brat". Which means real Madara was still alive up until the point that Nagato was a child. We saw Six year old Nagato activate a Rinnegan. At this point real Madara was already dead, since he also mentioned he died shortly after achieving the Rinnegan. 

Recent Interview with Kishimoto states that Tobi and real Madara *know* each other. This would have been before Nagato got his Rinnegan, since Madara was not alive to see Nagato grow up. Which means waay before Obito was even a proper shinobi. 



> So? First of all, no it doesn't. Second of all, what does hair have to do with this?



Yeah they do. Tobi from Itachi's flashback has smilair hairstyle with Izuna. Its not the most convincing, since we dont have other angles of his hair-style. 



> It just wouldn't fit though as Izuna being final villain. Izuna wasn't named in the manga, he had no lines, and we've only seen him in a few panels and wouldn't recognize his face. Why the emphasis on his face and even being teased by the mask cracking if it's just going to be Izuna, who would have had no reason to wear a mask if his face looked so similar to Madara's.



He looks similair, but not the same as Madara. The reason for the mask was initially for us and the MC's to assume he is Madara. Since that notion is dispelled it is now for us, the reader. We are currently debating who's behind that mask. Kishi is doind a fine job



> Madara also knows Tobi and yet still said Izuna is dead and that all that is left of him is his eyes. Going by the tense in his sentence, Izuna is currently dead and all that is currently left of him is his eyes. Thus izuna is currently dead and tobi is currently alive. So Tobi =/= Izuna.
> 
> Happy?



Madara never said he is *still* dead. Madara only said Izuna died and left his eyes.




> Your money is placed wrongly then.
> 
> How would Izuna come across a bunch of boulders and just assume that there was a crushed Uchiha teenager under there? And then dig up every single rock, steal the eye from under an enormous boulder, come back out, and put all the boulders back in place so no one would find that crushed Uchiha teenager's body?



Zetsu. is the key 

I find Izuna facing Minato more likely then Obito (who was 12 when he died) and less then a year later comes back as a full grown adult, almost Minato's height and knowledge of all Uchiha secrets

Not to mentioned Madara and Tobi know each other. Which means they met before Nagato got the Rinnegan. Which was durin WWII. Dont think Obito was even born then. If he was, he was shitting his diapers


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Aug 1, 2012)

All inconsistencies can be fixed by saying Tobi is one of Madara's Sharingan experiments.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 1, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Wait, isn't that Star Was ending?  That would make Obito Darth Vader, Rin as Padm?, Madara the Emperor...



Lol, yep.  If Tobi is Obito you know he's going to revert at some point likely on death door.  Likely put that way by Kakashi since Naruto doesn't really kill except for Pain dummies as far as I can remember.  

If you think about there will likely be a Tobi/Madara reunion and the only people who can likely stop Madara right now are Kakashi or Tobi by putting him in the Obitoville dimension.


----------



## Saru (Aug 1, 2012)

1. You didn't disprove any theory there. There are still plenty of options.

2. Tobi is using Hashirama's DNA. Obviously he has a heightened level of stamina while doing this, which could account for his use of Sharingan without strain.

I don't like either of your scenarios, OP (way to go with obvious choice, amirite?)


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## Res1990 (Aug 1, 2012)

my bet is still on tobi being izuna


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## Archangel Michael (Aug 1, 2012)

He is none of them. Izuna is dead and how the hell would madara gain ems with him alive?  Obito lol. He's dead too. It would make no sense if he's tobi. He also on the stone tablet.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Aug 1, 2012)

I doubt it's Izuna. The mask would be pointless if that were the case.


----------



## Res1990 (Aug 1, 2012)

izuna was dead but madara may have revived him with rinne tensei since he had the rinnegan


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## overlordofnobodies (Aug 1, 2012)

Seeing that  NEW INTERVIEW Link removed

I can see it being Izuna. Of course it will not make any seance but hell this manga stop that a long time ago.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 1, 2012)

It's very possible that Madara figured out how to gain Rinnegan, then effed up and used Rinnei tensei to revive his brother, Izuna, dying in the process...


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 1, 2012)

It's not Izuna or Obito.


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## Chibason (Aug 1, 2012)

Who is it, Hellz?


----------



## SaiST (Aug 1, 2012)

Lancebob The Tyrant Destroyer said:


> Izuna is dead and how the hell would madara gain ems with him alive?


Madara only had to exchange his Mangekyou Sharingan with Izuna's to acquire the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. Izuna living or dying after the fact is irrelevant.

Still can't believe how many people are missing the context of Madara's statement in Chapter 577.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 1, 2012)

Tobi is either Obito or someone else.

Wait, that's not right.

He could be Obito *and* someone else.


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## Archangel Michael (Aug 1, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Madara only had to exchange his Mangekyou Sharingan with Izuna's to acquire the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. Izuna living or dying after the fact is irrelevant.
> 
> Still can't believe how many people are missing the context of Madara's statement in Chapter 577.



It is relevant to what I am saying of why he's not tobi because madara said he's dead.


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## Somnus (Aug 1, 2012)

The Tobi=Izuna or Tobi=Madara Clone is far more ridiculous than Obito=Tobi.

At least we had a couple of chapters to get acquainted with Obito, someone will recognize him when Tobi takes off his mask and kinda fits the "clues" we have about Tobi.

The other choices are ridiculous, and if true are HORRIBLE writting (yeah Obito=Tobi is bad but the others would be beyond f***ing bad). Specially Izuna, I don't think he was even named in the manga but only in the databooks. The whole mystery around the hidden person behind the mask would be a joke, and only people that invested their time and ego into denying Tobi=Obito even when we have more proof of that that any other theory would be happy with it just because they could say "I'm right!! I'm smart and you're stupid !!"

If Tobi is some barely known Uchiha or Izuna it would be as bad as if Darth Vader in Star Wars turned to Luke and said: "Luke, I'm Chewbacca's uncle!!". At least if Tobi is Obito there's room for some drama between him and Kakashi, if he's some unknown guy it will be:"Okay..so you're Uchiha Something...hmm ok...nice to meet you...let's resume the fight"


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## Nuuskis (Aug 1, 2012)

I'm still in favor of my theory that Madara created Tobi from Zetsu's goo(which contains Hashirama's DNA), and Zetsu has the ability to copy another person's looks, so he would look like real Madara.(Of course Madara would implant his own DNA to this clone too) Then Madara would infuse the clone with lifeforce with Izanagi, making it alive.

Tobi=Madara's clone.

But he might use Obito's Sharingan, but I think that's the only thing that links Tobi to Obito.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 1, 2012)

Lancebob The Tyrant Destroyer said:


> It is relevant to what I am saying of why he's not tobi because madara said he's dead.


Madara said he *d i e d*?there's a difference.

Izuna surviving somehow has no bearing on Madara's acquisition of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## Archangel Michael (Aug 1, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Madara said he *d i e d*?there's a difference.
> 
> Izuna surviving somehow has no bearing on Madara's acquisition of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.



I didn't know their was a difference between died and dead until now. 

True, izuna surviving has nothing to do with madara gaining ems. I confused it with ms.


----------



## MYJC (Aug 1, 2012)

Somnus said:


> The Tobi=Izuna or Tobi=Madara Clone is far more ridiculous than Obito=Tobi.
> 
> At least we had a couple of chapters to get acquainted with Obito, someone will recognize him when Tobi takes off his mask and kinda fits the "clues" we have about Tobi.
> 
> ...



What's wrong with Tobi=Madara Clone? 

It would explain a lot, including:

1. Why Tobi claimed he was Madara (he is...in a way)
2. Why he knows so much about Madara (has Madara's memories)
3. How he can control the nine-tails (has the same eye powers as Madara)
4. Why he's at least partially made of Zetsu goo
5. Why he now says he's "no one" (with the real Madara around, he has no identity)


At this point I'd guess that it's Obito somehow, but Madara clone (with Obito's eye) is the next most likely. Izuna I doubt...it would have no impact when he was revealed. I doubt anybody on the battlefield knows who Izuna is anyway.


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## SaiST (Aug 1, 2012)

Lancebob The Tyrant Destroyer said:


> I didn't know their was a difference between died and dead until now.


Please tell me you aren't being sarcastic...



> _True, izuna surviving has nothing to do with madara gaining ems. I confused it with ms._


Wouldn't have anything to do with Madara's acquisition of the Mangekyou Sharingan either. If you think Izuna was the person Madara had to lose in order to awaken his Mangekyou Sharingan, you'd be wrong.


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## Rabbit and Rose (Aug 1, 2012)

Omg everyone knows this in the back of their skull that Tobi is Obito.

Kakashi knows this, I know this, and the whole forum knows this even if they are denying it like a damn politician.


----------



## Archangel Michael (Aug 1, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Please tell me you aren't being sarcastic...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't have anything to do with Madara's acquisition of the Mangekyou Sharingan either. If you think Izuna was the person Madara had to lose in order to awaken his Mangekyou Sharingan, you'd be wrong.



I'm not being sarcastic. I thought they were the same. 

No, I was thinking you had to kill your brother to gain ems then take his eye . I already know that you can kill your closet friend to gain ms.


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## Khazzar (Aug 1, 2012)

How can you not see the relevance of "bonds" in this manga.

The bond of Itachi and Sasuke. The bond of Madara and Izuna. Elder and younger brother,in which elder was always more famous and superiour,but younger still had just as much potential and was missunderstood somehow.

There is no reason for Obito to be so much heavily connected to the misfortunes that happened to Naruto and Sasuke. Tobi was directly responsible for their misfortunes,he was the one that was involved in deaths of both Naruto's parents and Sasuke's clan. Obito was important to Kakashi and his own development,not to the main plot of Narutoverse.

The Sharingan,all variations,dimensions and jutsu's that go along with it are connected. Tobi was the one that used the most Sharingan,the one who collected them. What's to stop him from finding Obito's corpse and Sharingan and develop it to this stage? It's only logical *Izuna* switched numerous eyes and could never be as powerful as Madara,because Madara stole his own,as an elder brother, and gained EMS.


----------



## Xerces (Aug 1, 2012)

Its neither Obito nor Izuna. *Tobi is Uchiha Kagami*


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 1, 2012)

Please anyone, ANYONE but Izuna please


----------



## Kage (Aug 1, 2012)

or it could be someone new with an uchiha eye. not like that ever happens.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 1, 2012)

Lancebob The Tyrant Destroyer said:


> I'm not being sarcastic. I thought they were the same.


Ah... Then, I apologize.



> _No, I was thinking you had to kill your brother to gain ems._


No. There were a number of Uchiha since Madara's time that murdered their siblings, and other close family in their failed pursuits of eternal _"light"_, but that was most likely due to the taboo that surrounds the Mangekyou Sharingan in general.

While the loss of an Uchiha's eyes can be seen as something of a death flag for them(and that is ultimately why Izuna died in battle afterwards), Izuna didn't have to die in order for Madara to acquire the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. All that is required is an Uchiha that has awakened a Mangekyou Sharingan of their own, must exchange it with one that belongs to someone closely related to them, in order to increase the chance of compatibility.



Somnus said:


> If Tobi is some barely known Uchiha or Izuna it would be as bad as if Darth Vader in Star Wars turned to Luke and said: "Luke, I'm Chewbacca's uncle!!". At least if Tobi is Obito there's room for some drama between him and Kakashi, if he's some unknown guy it will be:"Okay..so you're Uchiha Something...hmm ok...nice to meet you...let's resume the fight"


This is part of the problem with those of you who can't seem to accept the possibility of Tobi being Izuna, undermining his significance to events related to much of the drama that has been bred amongst the Uchiha, and their conflict with the Senju over the past century or so.

The guy said to be Madara's equal, and lead the Uchiha clan to prominence alongside him. The way Madara felt Izuna's sacrifice was insulted was the primary reason behind the grudge he bore towards the clan, and one of the key reasons behind his defection from Konoha—this was even recently touched on at the tail end of his oft-misinterpreted conversation with Tsunade throughout 576-577.

Yet that is ignored, and he is likened to just any random Uchiha like _Kagami_, or _Setsuna_, simply because his name has yet to be given in the manga...

You've got the army of Allied Shinobi Forces heading for Naruto's position right now, that's sure to have some old heads, or history buffs familiar with Izuna's accomplishments alongside Madara. You've got Madara himself, who's just been revived and free to do whatever he pleases as soon as he wraps up his fight with the Gokage. If Tobi turns out to be Izuna, you'll get your drama—it doesn't necessarily have to come from any interpersonal relationships between himself the protagonists currently in front of him.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 1, 2012)

I used to feel that Izuna was a likely option if not the most likely option, but there really has been nothing indicating that he might be Tobi in a long time.

The most recent event was Madara saying he had died and that "only the power of his eyes remained". Before that it was Tobi's comments about Nagato's Rinngegan being "his to begin with".

Meanwhile, Tobi's dropping mysterious comments that indicate a familiarity with Kakashi and Guy, and his eye seems to possess a similar if not identical power to Kakashi's.


----------



## Boreas (Aug 1, 2012)

It's Obito... another paralel everybody forgot: 

with his whole body being intangible.


Obito was like naruto when we saw him, and now wants to use infinite tsukyomi to "save" the world alone. 


And by the way... 

with his whole body being intangible.


Has anyone never wondered who's talking in the darkness here? 

Kakashi had already his eye opened...


----------



## Augors (Aug 1, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> I'm still in favor of my theory that Madara created Tobi from Zetsu's goo(which contains Hashirama's DNA), and Zetsu has the ability to copy another person's looks, so he would look like real Madara.(Of course Madara would implant his own DNA to this clone too) Then Madara would infuse the clone with lifeforce with Izanagi, making it alive.
> 
> Tobi=Madara's clone.
> 
> But he might use Obito's Sharingan, but I think that's the only thing that links Tobi to Obito.


I'm sorry if I'm raging at you, but I hate the idea that people are saying that Tobi has Obito's Sharingan. There's no way. We ALL saw he whole right body smash by a bounder rock. Also, Tobi has two sharingans in both eyes, not just one.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 1, 2012)

Boreas said:


> And by the way...
> 
> with his whole body being intangible.
> 
> ...


That was Kakashi, looking up at the starry night sky, wondering where he was after just regaining consciousness.



Augors said:


> I'm sorry if I'm raging at you, but I hate the idea that people are saying that Tobi has Obito's Sharingan. There's no way. We ALL saw he whole right body smash by a bounder rock. Also, Tobi has two sharingans in both eyes, not just one.


We don't know how thoroughly crushed the right side of Obito's body was, his eye could have been left intact for others to recover.

That said, the similarities between Kakashi's Kamui, and Tobi's Jikuukan Idou don't necessarily have to mean that they are both Obito's ocular powers. Even if they are related, much in the same way Amaterasu and Sasuke's Kagutsuchi are, not all Mangekyou Sharingan techniques are unique; some have been reoccurring with inferred history.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 1, 2012)

Another parallel would be this page and the this page (there might be more).

And this one is just...  Kakashi is concentrating in Tobi's left eye, with the Rinnegan. However, Kakashi and us know that his phasing power is from the right eye, because Tobi used before having Rinnegan. So why would Kakashi focus on it? Because that right eye, the one that Tobi is missing, is the one that Kakashi has, and he's understanding the connection.



Boreas said:


> And by the way...
> 
> this one
> 
> ...



That would be pretty cool. Unfortunetly, that's the night sky.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 1, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> These are NOT coincidences.
> 
> I seriously lol at people who think that one panel random fodder Kagami could personally know Kakashi and Guy somehow and be able to cancel Kamui.
> 
> ...




posting this here to further add to the evidence


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## Summers (Aug 1, 2012)

OMG Kakashi looking and Tobi, Tobi looking at Kakashi! 2 people identified by their eyes and masks.This is compelling. Its set in stone now.


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## Augors (Aug 1, 2012)

SaiST said:


> That was Kakashi, looking up at the starry night sky, wondering where he was after just regaining consciousness.
> 
> 
> We don't know how thoroughly crushed the right side of Obito's body was, his eye could have been left intact for others to recover.
> ...


I'm pretty sure after 2nd round of rocks coming down, there will be nothing left to even recover.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 1, 2012)

Summers said:


> OMG Kakashi looking and Tobi, Tobi looking at Kakashi! 2 people identified by their eyes and masks.This is compelling. Its set in stone now.



I'm glad you've seen the error of your ways.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 1, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> There is no reason for Obito to be so much heavily connected to the misfortunes that happened to Naruto and Sasuke.



The same can be said about Izuna. His character has absolutely no relationship with any of other characters. It would just be a parallelism that further develops his story with his older brother. Itachi and Sasuke ended with the elder entrusting his younger brother's future to Naruto. Izuna's character itself hasn't received any sort of commentary, development, or subtle intertwining with Naruto's story. 

I'm not discounting him because one of them probably is Tobi. But all candidates are hard sells at the moment.

Except Kagami Uchiha, the one character whose absence actually makes a ton of sense.


----------



## Akumu877 (Aug 2, 2012)

If from those two I would have to pick Izuna.  Just for the fact Tobi has a stockpile of eyes.  What would make anyone want to collect so many? I say fear of going blind and if you run onto a set or even one why not take it.  Just my thought on it prob wrong but just my thought.


----------



## Tony Lou (Aug 2, 2012)

How come the new character option never gets much love. It's Nagato all over again.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 2, 2012)

Actually, according to the timeline barring Madara being a time traveling space alien it can only realisticly be Izuna or Kagami.


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## Raiden (Aug 2, 2012)

Luiz said:


> How come the new character option never gets much love. It's Nagato all over again.



Because people here especially want the manga to be like puzzle pieces they can fit together. I actually wouldn't mind a new character. We don't know many Uchiha anyway.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 2, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> This same horseshit line again?
> 
> Any possibility that the mask is purely defensive and not there to hide his identity from the 4 people in front of him?



   Bahahahaha

That is the most hilarious argument I've ever heard.  Yes, a guy that can phase his entire body at will feels the need to have a mask for defense.  Did I mention he has Sharingan prediction too?? ROFL!  Do you read what you're typing? Please tell me how that makes a lick of sense? It doesn't, that was madness lol.

What's even more hilarious is that you're implying Tobi is so certain he'll get one-shotted that he keeps a mask on to protect his life.  He does not strike me as the type that thinks anyone is hitting him anytime soon.  It's clear as day that mask is to protect his identity, making Izuna a rather pointless option.


----------



## Talis (Aug 2, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> This same horseshit line again?
> 
> Any possibility that the mask is purely defensive and not there to hide his identity from the 4 people in front of him?


Oh god should i sign this? 
And this is why i hate Tobito haters, they call Tobito believers dumbs while their arguments are incredible hilarious.


----------



## Lelouch71 (Aug 2, 2012)

Honestly at this point I wouldn't be shock if Kishi does make Tobi turn out to be Obito. I always saw Tobi as the dark Naruto. So it would make some sense in that regard.


----------



## kyuubinaruto12 (Aug 2, 2012)

Ummmm if Kurama knows who Tobi is......why doesnt he just say something... maybe its not important or whatever but it seems like Naruto & Com. want to know who their fighting


----------



## Nuuskis (Aug 2, 2012)

Augors said:


> I'm sorry if I'm raging at you, but I hate the idea that people are saying that Tobi has Obito's Sharingan. There's no way. We ALL saw he whole right body smash by a bounder rock. Also, Tobi has two sharingans in both eyes, not just one.



It's ok if you don't agree with my theory. But I think that the things that's been revealed about Tobi could indicate that he is using Obito's eye. But that still doesn't prove he would be Obito himself.

And Tobi doesn't have two Sharingans, he has Rinnegan in the left eye.


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## Khazzar (Aug 2, 2012)

It's definetly similar to Obito's eye. But i doubt it's Obito himself.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 2, 2012)

kyuubinaruto12 said:


> Ummmm if Kurama knows who Tobi is......why doesnt he just say something... maybe its not important or whatever but it seems like Naruto & Com. want to know who their fighting



Well maybe he doesn't actually know.

He's called him "The Masked Man" like everyone else at least twice now.


----------



## Augors (Aug 2, 2012)

Nachrael said:


> It's ok if you don't agree with my theory. But I think that the things that's been revealed about Tobi could indicate that he is using Obito's eye. But that still doesn't prove he would be Obito himself.
> 
> And Tobi doesn't have two Sharingans, he has Rinnegan in the left eye.


Let me rephrase that; he had two sharingans before he mange to obtain the rinnegan back. He took off part of his mask to use Izanagi.



*Spoiler*: __


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 2, 2012)

Augors said:


> Let me rephrase that; he had two sharingans before he mange to obtain the rinnegan back. He took off part of his mask to use Izanagi.
> 
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



The Sharingan he used for Izanagi was not originally his.


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## Summers (Aug 2, 2012)

Ya know looking at all the sigs/ava I and others have of Tobi, I am gonna be kinda sad to see it go. I know just earlier as was hyped for it, but that mask is so him, without it what will he be? Just some another guy.

I think Tobi is going to rage extremely hard when he loses it. Just look how he reacted this chapter to it being scratched. He got blew up by a rasengan and he could not give a darn, but touch his mask and he looks ready to ape shit all over them.


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## DejaEntendu (Aug 2, 2012)

I don't understand why people think Tobi has to have an impact on the people at the battle site. Are readers really that concerned with seeing !!!! !!!! expressions on Naruto and Kakashi's faces? It doesn't matter. What matters is that the reader reacts like that. We all know who Izuna is, even if Naruto doesn't. I assume Kakashi is vaguely familiar with the person as well. And if you have to have that reaction, bring in Madara within mask-revealing range. Create a back story with how Izuna ties in with the first hokage, and maybe Tsunade. I don't know. There's a million ways to make it work. Look at the Pein arc. Pein was no one to Naruto when the Akatsuki were first introduced, and he was revealed to be a fellow student of the same teacher. Things fall into place.

There's so many issues with time, consistency, etc. that just make it impossible to be Obito. I really have no idea how that theory even originated besides ZOMG AN UCHICHA, MUST CONSIDER HIM. I do think it is Izuna and have for a long time, but I could see it being another character as a stretch. There's just really 0% chance for it to be Obito and make any kind of sense. A lot of readers would just quit the manga. Heck, I'm all for it if it can be -rationally- explained, but it just can't. My legitimate guess considering Kishi's....subpar... storytelling is that it's going to be a character we don't know, some sort of resurrection nonsense, or a total pull out of thin air. The answer that makes the most sense? Izuna. No question.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 3, 2012)

^ That's what I've been saying. These fucking theorists suck. They don't understand that it's basically impossible for Tobi to physically be Obito.

Tobi was shocked when fighting Minato.
Tobi claimed that Nagato's eyes were originally his (which makes no sense because Obito only had one eye left)
Tobi knows about Rikudo and the Jubi.
Tobi knows all about Madara's life and his fight with Shodai
Tobi wants to start a war
Tobi personally knows Madara
Tobi made a plan with Madara to resurrect him 
Tobi's chakra is powerful enough to control Kurama (even made Kurama think that it was Madara himself)

You think Obito went from being a lousy Chunin to becoming someone on Minato's level in two years?


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## DejaEntendu (Aug 3, 2012)

In all fairness, that's what Naruto did, but he is our story's hero and all, and it's unlikely anyone else, especially who isn't a Jinchuriki, would be able to; not to mention Tobi and Obito's personalities are polar opposites...even if hatred or some crap turned him like Pein, he was level headed and would have some kind of more down to earth plan than global genjutsu. The problems with the Obito theory are endless and I'm not really sure why people want it to work out so badly.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 3, 2012)

Summers said:


> *Ya know looking at all the sigs/ava I and others have of Tobi, I am gonna be kinda sad to see it go. I know just earlier as was hyped for it, but that mask is so him, without it what will he be? Just some another guy.
> *
> I think Tobi is going to rage extremely hard when he loses it. Just look how he reacted this chapter to it being scratched. He got blew up by a rasengan and he could not give a darn, but touch his mask and he looks ready to ape shit all over them.



Yeah, the greatest high of this series especially is the mystery of unanswered questions. And then after it ends, you realize that you got excitement from the thrill itself, not necessarily the actual character.


----------



## Daryoon (Aug 3, 2012)

ceralux said:


> You think Obito went from being a lousy Chunin to becoming someone on Minato's level in two years?



Chapter One Naruto couldn't even use a basic bushin properly. He's now _one of the most powerful ninjas in the world_. Ino-Shika-Chou went from struggling against the Sound genin to fighting Hidan and Kakuzu, and later being instrumental in the war effort.

These people have aged four years, max.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 3, 2012)

Izun was always my first choice...

The evidence is all there.


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Aug 3, 2012)

Augors said:


> I'm pretty sure after 2nd round of rocks coming down, there will be nothing left to even recover.


That's one point that makes Tobito appear to be unlikely, but does it prevent the readers from speculating that something else happened?



Ezekial said:


> Izun was always my first choice...
> 
> The evidence is all there.


What evidence?


----------



## Audible Phonetics (Aug 3, 2012)

Why are these threads made every week especially when this chapter had nothing revealing or any new revelations lol :LMAO


----------



## takL (Aug 3, 2012)

auem said:


> all madara said was his brother gave him his own eye before his death.....but that doesn't stop him bringing him back with rinnegan....a man who had plotted his own resurrection via rinnegan had it within his power...
> 
> moreover madara lied there...he 'stole' izuna's eye(i believe itachi's words are cannon in this manga),yet he put it like his brother gave up willingly....



un un. he didnt say 'gave' or 'stole' in there. 
he simply said his borther was dead and all that remains was the eye power on his(madaras) eyes. 
he added it in a same breath with the line 'you (hashirama) are dead and all that remains is the lifeforce of the cells sticking to my body'

plus imo there was a tone of  'i miss them!'.


----------



## BlazingCobaltX (Aug 3, 2012)

I've always called Izuna, and I'll keep saying it.


----------



## Khazzar (Aug 3, 2012)

Obito was a child when he died. Tobi was a grown man when he fought Minato,had a voice and appeareance of an ancient Shinobi,who used Bijuu as his pets.. Obito? That's just lol. He was great potential and his eyes were just as special as Shisui's,which can be seen in Kakashi and Tobi.

Obito has small plot relevance,like Shisui,he was a steping stone for a more important character.

Izuna on the other hand has great plot releveance as a younger brother. Like Sasuke is a younger brother of Itachi,but is more important character for the story then Itachi is.

Tobi is more important character in this story then Madara is. Tobi is Uchiha Izuna.


----------



## takL (Aug 3, 2012)

the general readership haven't heard the name izuna.


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## Daryoon (Aug 3, 2012)

Ah man, I'd successfully procrastinated with a reply and it failed to send D:

Long story short: Izuna has no relevance to the overall narrative, whereas Obito continues the tradition of students turning on their masters (Third Hokage/Orochimaru; Jiraiya/Nagato; Minato/Obito; Kakashi/Sasuke), and everyone should know by now that this whole 'cycle' thing is pretty much the core theme (since, you know, Naruto = spiral).

Also: Izuna has no reason to hide his face/identity. Short-haired Tobi is ashamed of who he is, that's why he hides behind a mask, both literal and figurative ('Tobi', 'Madara', 'Nobody'). Self-identity is very much the core theme of this arc (see: Kabuto, the bijuu).

Also, long-haired Tobi is a different character to short-haired Tobi. It was probably Madara. Compare the body posture:
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


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## Easley (Aug 3, 2012)

takL said:


> the general readership haven't heard the name izuna.


True, but I don't think general/casual readers would remember Obito much either. He was mainly in Kakashi Gaiden, which was years ago.


----------



## takL (Aug 3, 2012)

yea altho general readers remember obito more because of their love for kakashi.
and i dont think tobi is simply obito.


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## Iruel (Aug 3, 2012)

takL said:


> the general readership haven't heard the name izuna.



So? Nagato was a brand new character... Theres no rules on what kind of character Tobi could be.. he could be a new character, minor, or an already established important one.


----------



## Jon Snow (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm gonna fucking laugh when/if people get overjoyed if it's Izuna

WHO THE FUCK IS IZUNA

A FUCKING NOBODY WITH 3 PANELS


----------



## Trent (Aug 3, 2012)

The Tobi being a special Zetsu clone of Madara still is my preferred theory so far.

Having him _literally _being no one and a living embodiment of the hatred inherent to the the ninja system, of its darkness, would just be badass.


----------



## takL (Aug 3, 2012)

KuroShiroZetsu said:


> Theres no rules on what kind of character Tobi could be.. he could be a new character, minor, or an already established important one.


 did i say otherwise?


----------



## Jon Snow (Aug 3, 2012)

Easley said:


> True, but I don't think general/casual readers would remember Obito much either. He was mainly in Kakashi Gaiden, which was years ago.



So you're saying that how Kakashi obtained the Sharingan will be a mystery to most people? Give me a break


----------



## Easley (Aug 3, 2012)

Jon Snow said:


> So you're saying that how Kakashi obtained the Sharingan will be a mystery to most people? Give me a break


To general or casual readers? Yeah, I do think that's the case. They aren't invested in the story the way people on this forum are.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 3, 2012)

takL said:


> un un. he didnt say 'gave' or 'stole' in there.
> he simply said his borther was dead and all that remains was the eye power on his(madaras) eyes.
> he added it in a same breath with the line 'you (hashirama) are dead and all that remains is the lifeforce of the cells sticking to my body'
> 
> plus imo there was a tone of  'i miss them!'.


Since I know this could be used to further the misunderstanding, I want to know what you think of . Do you agree that all it confirms is that Izuna did indeed die, but does not deny the possibility of him being resurrected at a later time?



Jon Snow said:


> I'm gonna fucking laugh when/if people get overjoyed if it's Izuna
> 
> WHO THE FUCK IS IZUNA
> 
> A FUCKING NOBODY WITH 3 PANELS


He's a guy that—while currently unnamed in the manga—has been featured in most of the flashbacks, and discussions related to Madara's past throughout Part 2.

A character that played an integral part in making the Uchiha clan the prominent warrior clan they came to be alongside Madara. And whose sacrifice played a large part in driving Madara's decision to defect from Konoha, and fuel the strong grudge he bore towards both it, and the Uchiha clan—which relates to what he says at the tail end of the discussion mentioned in my above reply to takL.


----------



## Danzio (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm pretty sure Madara declared Izuna dead.How could Madara work with a dead person?


----------



## son_michael (Aug 3, 2012)

Trent said:


> The Tobi being a special Zetsu clone of Madara still is my preferred theory so far.
> 
> Having him _literally _being no one and a living embodiment of the hatred inherent to the the ninja system, of its darkness, would just be badass.



that's impossible. If it was that simple he wouldn't be wearing a mask all this time. The madara/zetsu clone theory is as good as dead.


----------



## takL (Aug 3, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Since I know this could be used to further the misunderstanding, I want to know what you think of . Do you agree that all it confirms is that Izuna did indeed die, but does not deny the possibility of him being resurrected at a later time?



i agree with both Mistshadows interpretation and your 'He's denying this concept of "will" having anything to do with "power", he's insisting that "power" must be a corporeal thing... Just as Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan, and Hashirama's genetic material were to him' part.

 i just dont think madara'd know if izuna had been resurrected. he seems to be missing izuna there.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 3, 2012)

Danzio said:


> I'm pretty sure Madara declared Izuna dead.How could Madara work with a dead person?


Madara declared that when Izuna *died*, only his ocular powers were left for him to inherit. This doesn't mean that he could not have been resurrected at a later time.



takL said:


> i just dont think madara'd know if izuna had been resurrected. he seems to be missing izuna there.


Then how do you believe Tsunade's immedaite reply, claiming how "wrong" Madara is, fits in with that?

I also see the remnants of sentimentality in Madara's statement, takL. I just don't think it means that Madara believes that Izuna is currently dead.


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## takL (Aug 3, 2012)

in jp to be dead and to have died are the same.



SaiST said:


> Madara declared that when Izuna *died*, only his ocular powers were left for him to inherit. This doesn't mean that he could not have been resurrected at a later time.


i dont see the "to inherit" bit



SaiST said:


> Then how do you believe Tsunade's immedaite reply, claiming how "wrong" Madara is, fits in with that?


u mean tunade thinks izuna is still  alive?


again it went like this 
madara "you (hashirama) are dead and all that remains is the lifeforce of the cells sticking to my body'
"my borther is dead and all that remains is the eye power on my eyes."

tunade "Again it's not like that!"

madara "if anything can be passed down, its the hatred"


----------



## SaiST (Aug 3, 2012)

takL said:


> i dont see the "to inherit" bit


I'm not a translator, bro—at least, not a good one.  I'm not trying to put Madara's statement out there in the literal, character for character sense. All I'm trying to do is give the readers a greater understanding of the context of the conversation in it's entirety, which that statement is part of.

I don't think that the common interpretation of _"Madara said Izuna is dead, and that only his eye power is left!"_ is entirely appropiate. Many are taking it in a more absolute sense, that it means that Madara *has* to be saying that Izuna is _currently_ dead.

So while there are traces of sentimentality in that statement, I think that some of us may be misplacing where it lies, so to speak.



> _u mean tunade thinks izuna is still  alive?_


Well, that's not what *I'm* saying. 

If Madara's claiming that Izuna's dead, and that only his doryoku remains, what is the point of Tsunade's forceful reply? How does it relate to the conversation as a whole?


----------



## takL (Aug 3, 2012)

SaiST said:


> If Madara's claiming that Izuna's dead, and that only his doryoku remains, what is the point of Tsunade's forceful reply? How does it relate to the conversation as a whole?



imo tunade believes the wills of the decreased can be passed down as 'power'. madara thinks only material things or ill wills can be passed down.

btw thanks for this civil discussion.  i like i like


----------



## Jon Snow (Aug 3, 2012)

SaiST said:


> He's a guy that?while currently unnamed in the manga?has been featured in most of the flashbacks, and discussions related to Madara's past throughout Part 2.
> 
> A character that played an integral part in making the Uchiha clan the prominent warrior clan they came to be alongside Madara. And whose sacrifice played a large part in driving Madara's decision to defect from Konoha, and fuel the strong grudge he bore towards both it, and the Uchiha clan?which relates to what he says at the tail end of the discussion mentioned in my above reply to takL.



I'm gonna take your word as truth. Still, what purpose would the mask have? Now, I'm unsure how long ago Izuna died/"died" compared to the present, but unless they had cameras and/or had some seriously detailed Izuna drawings on tablets or some shit like that back in the day the mask serves no point, because no one knows who he is. I doubt he's been wearing it all this time out of fear of being recognized by a one-in-a-million resurrection of his brother.

It's still not a character the majority of readers would or maybe even should actually care about. Obito on the other hand created Kakashi. And Kakashi created Naruto, with the influence of Haku/Zabuza.

It just feels... off to have a masked character for 200-300 chapters changing names and personalities only for it to be someone it shouldn't be. Don't shoot me son, I'm only bein' logical


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## Trent (Aug 3, 2012)

son_michael said:


> that's impossible. If it was that simple he wouldn't be wearing a mask all this time. The madara/zetsu clone theory is as good as dead.



He'd have simply been wearing his mask all these decades for the most basic reason anyone would be masked: keeping his identity secret.

Then, for all we know, his face indicates his nature.


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## SaiST (Aug 3, 2012)

takL said:


> imo tunade believes the wills of the decreased can be passed down as 'power'. madara thinks only material things or ill wills can be passed down.


Yes! We're pretty much on the same page here.

Tsunade insists that Hashirama's _"Will of Fire"_ has become a source of _"power"_ for them. Madara denies it, claiming how weak they are compared to his old rival, and that the only _"power"_ he left were the vitality-rich cells currently clinging to his body... *Just* as all his lil' brother had to leave behind upon *his* death was the ocular power of his Mangekyou Sharingan.

Then, Tsunade's rebuttal fits perfectly in line, right? That's how the flow of the conversation went to me. Many people are singling out that one line, and taking it a bit out of context.



> _btw thanks for this civil discussion.  i like i like_


Oh, you also have my thanks! 



Jon Snow said:


> I'm gonna take your word as truth. Still, what purpose would the mask have? Now, I'm unsure how long ago Izuna died/"died" compared to the present, but unless they had cameras and/or had some seriously detailed Izuna drawings on tablets or some shit like that back in the day the mask serves no point, because no one knows who he is. I doubt he's been wearing it all this time out of fear of being recognized by a one-in-a-million resurrection of his brother.


The Uchiha clan's rise to glory hasn't been too long ago. There should still be some old heads and/or history buffs around that're aware of him, even if he was largely overshadowed by his brother...

But, under the assumption that it's Izuna, that's what he was taking advantage of. His brother's name held power, and he would hide his face to ensure he'd be able to take full advantage of it. Even if his facade was exposed through the real Madara's revival, that doesn't mean he'd just have to instantly shrug it off, remove the mask, and go about his business anyways.



> _It's still not a character the majority of readers would or maybe even should actually care about. Obito on the other hand created Kakashi. And Kakashi created Naruto, with the influence of Haku/Zabuza.
> 
> It just feels... off to have a masked character for 200-300 chapters changing names and personalities only for it to be someone it shouldn't be. Don't shoot me son, I'm only bein' logical_


Well, much in the same way Obito played a major part in shaping the personalities of the protagonist(s), Izuna's role had a lot to do with how Madara, arguably the primary antagonist, took action against Konoha, and spurred many of the events that have transpired over the last century or so. And Izuna himself would have good reason(s) to share a lot of the ill will that drove Madara to do those things.

In my opinion, one of the things that makes Izuna such a likely candidate is the fact that he's been only _slightly_ underexposed. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's been so pivotal in Madara's acquisition of power, and the actions he took with it, yet only named in the manga's supplementary reading.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 3, 2012)

*Bet: If Tobi is Izuna I will either quit the forum or become a hardcore Itachitard*

Hardcore Itachitard for a week.

Is that.......... to me Izuna is the worst possible choice, the most boring, I would rather him to be ANYONE than Izuna. So Im making this bet thread as a way of showing my disapproval and to make people think if they want Izuna.

I mean "Yeah, Im Madara's bro" fuck..... I mean even ramen guy would cause more suspense.


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## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 3, 2012)

Wrong, the worst thing is Tobito. I actually don't like any of the theories, if it's a new character or Madara's Frankenstein monster it's okay.


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## Raventhal (Aug 3, 2012)

I don't have anything invested in who Tobi is.  I just hope the Tobi sob story isn't boring no matter who he is.  Kabuto's was horrible lol.   I will miss the debate though.


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## Danzio (Aug 3, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Madara declared that when Izuna *died*, only his ocular powers were left for him to inherit. This doesn't mean that he could not have been resurrected at a later time.



Is that technically possible, sure, but why would Madara later resurrect his brother when he already took his powers, let his brother die in some war -while blind- and by the look it, already mourned his loss? It doesn?t make any sense.


Even if we ignore it, Madara awakened his rinnegan shortly before his death. Madara knew Nagato somehow, which means rinne tensei is out of the question, since Nagato couldn?t even resurrect Jiraiya.


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## Krippy (Aug 3, 2012)

My money is on Izuna.


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## Raiden (Aug 3, 2012)

Jon Snow said:


> It just feels... off to have a masked character for 200-300 chapters changing names and personalities only for it to be someone it shouldn't be. Don't shoot me son, I'm only bein' logical



This is why it must be Aoba.


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## son_michael (Aug 3, 2012)

There's too much evidence in the obito theory's favor. yes im talking about all the little things. 

-Tobi's mask being the same color has obito's goggles. 
- the bolts in the arm
- tobi standing next to a wall of boulders
- tobi's space time technique
- obito's off screen death
- kakashi's NUMEROUS interactions with tobi
- kakashi and tobi sharing the same dimension
- tobi's name 
-obito being the uchiha version of Naruto
- obito failing in love and having regrets



dont you see? this is all evidence. Your going to throw all of this away just because Izuna would make the most sense for revenge? No, the real reason your throwing this evidence away is because you can't understand how obito makes sense.

Well how does Izuna make sense? He should be an old man with no eyes and in actuality he was confirmed dead by Madara himself. He has no connection to Naruto(obito does) and kakashi has no relationship with him either. So your saying all the tobi kakashi interaction was to trick us? 

with all the evidence/hints, its clear to me that tobi is obito, timeline inconsistencies be dammed. It doesn't make sense to you? Well kishi will make it make sense. There's just TOO MUCH evidence for the theory and too many hints by kishi. I dont believe kishi is going to troll us, I believe the manga speaks for itself.

Kakashi doesn't know Izuna and when we first got all those tobi hints it was when Izuna was never even introduced.


It can only be obito, ive tried to stay open about this but with the latest chapter its clear. Kakashi and tobi are connected and there is only 1 logical choice.


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## Frostman (Aug 3, 2012)

If Tobi was a Madara clone it would fit into the who identity crises theme we were forced to sit through with Kabuto and Itachi. These two were both allies of Tobi and would be able to relate to him. Except Tobi would be a more extreme case. 

It would explain why Tobi was referring to himself as Madara. In his mind he really is Madara, but at the same time he isn't because he is aware that he is a clone. This is why he is "nobody" now that the real Madara has made his appearance. 

When it comes time to explain the background, Kishi can tie in the relationship between Orochimaru, Tobi and Madara at the same time. Hell, they can even throw it Yamato and maybe Zetsu if he is also a clone. Viola, the whole cloning, genetic modification sub plot gets a huge explanation all without turning Tobi into a kicked puppy. This is way more interesting the seeing how Obito fell from grace. Something we already saw and was resolved in Nagato's story. It would also be a side track from the main story. God forbid its an amnesia case.

Also imagine the shock on everyone's face when the fake Madara is reveled to be Madara.


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 3, 2012)

son_michael said:


> There's too much evidence in the obito theory's favor. yes im talking about all the little things.
> 
> -Tobi's mask being the same color has obito's goggles.
> - the bolts in the arm
> ...



Latest interview with Kishi mentioned that Tobi & Madara know each other 

Following are facts: 
- It was stated that Madara died shortly after acquiring Rinnegan.
- When Madara was revived he referred to Nagato as a "brat", meaning he *knows* Nagato when he was a kid
- It was revealed Nagato did not "naturally awaken" his Rinnegan and got it from Tobi (aka original Madara's eyes)

From the above the only logical conclusion is that Madara meant for Nagato revive him (Rinne Tense) with the Rinnegan that was eventually implanted into Nagato. Tobi most likely implanted them (as he mentioned vs Konan)

Combined with the fact from latest interview that Tobi and Madara *know* each other, it means Tobi & Madara must have met when Madara was alive, roughly around the time when Nagato was a kid. Or even before that, cuz shortly after he got the Rinnegan Madara died. Either way, *this means it can't be Obito since he was not born back then*

With the all the history at work, Izuna being Tobi posing as Madara, and with Obito's eye makes the most sense

Also, important to note, Madara was a "caring" brother. He could have easily revived Izuna when he got the Rinnegan
Tobi mentioned Izuna gave his eyes willingly. A fact confirmed by Madara. It means once again Itachi was lying vs Sasuke


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## Trent (Aug 3, 2012)

Frostman said:


> If Tobi was a Madara clone it would fit into the who identity crises theme we were forced to sit through with Kabuto and Itachi. These two were both allies of Tobi and would be able to relate to him. Except Tobi would be a more extreme case.
> 
> It would explain why Tobi was referring to himself as Madara. In his mind he really is Madara, but at the same time he isn't because he is aware that he is a clone. This is why he is "nobody" now that the real Madara has made his appearance.
> 
> When it comes time to explain the background, Kishi can tie in the relationship between Orochimaru, Tobi and Madara at the same time. Hell, they can even throw it Yamato and maybe Zetsu if he is also a clone. Viola, the whole cloning, genetic modification sub plot gets a huge explanation all without turning Tobi into a kicked puppy. This is way more interesting the seeing how Obito fell from grace. Something we already saw and was resolved in Nagato's story. It would also be a side track from the main story. God forbid its an amnesia case.



Great post and that's basically what I'm thinking.


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## son_michael (Aug 3, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Latest interview with Kishi mentioned that Tobi & Madara know each other
> 
> Following are facts:
> - It was stated that Madara died shortly after acquiring Rinnegan.
> ...



I said "timeline be damned". Izuna has no connection with kakashi, all that panel time just to trick us? 


obito's death off screen for nothing? Obito's body never been recovered for nothing?  

all the evidence a coincidence?


I think not.






Frostman said:


> If Tobi was a Madara clone it would fit into the who identity crises theme we were forced to sit through with Kabuto and Itachi. These two were both allies of Tobi and would be able to relate to him. Except Tobi would be a more extreme case.
> 
> It would explain why Tobi was referring to himself as Madara. In his mind he really is Madara, but at the same time he isn't because he is aware that he is a clone. This is why he is "nobody" now that the real Madara has made his appearance.
> 
> ...




seeing a madara face under the mask would the biggest troll move kishi could make. it would be completely anti climatic and invoke no emotion or suspense.


and tobi obviously has a completely different personality than madara too.


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 3, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I said "timeline be damned". Izuna has no connection with kakashi, all that panel time just to trick us?



Yess its called a red herring

Also not completely wasted pabel time for Kakashi and Tobi staring. He has Obito's eye. And Kakashi being there is essential to figure *that* part out



> obito's death off screen for nothing? Obito's body never been recovered for nothing?



Obito's death was hardly off screen. We saw his left side being completely crushed by rocks and his final thoughts as Kakashi & co were escaping

As for recovering the body; they were in enemy territory. Not to mentioned people like Jiraya also didnt get their body recovered.



> all the evidence a coincidence?
> 
> 
> I think not.



No, Tobi has Obito's eye. That part is obvious. 99% of Naruto-readers figured that out last 2 chapters

In fact 90% figured that out even before Kakashi and Tobi were battling

If everybody at this point *knows* Tobi had Obito's eye, then why not completely show his face?

Unless Tobi is NOT Obito


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## Orochibuto (Aug 3, 2012)

I dont like the Obito theory, but to be honest every time I see skeptics and with how much of a passion and flaming they treat the Obito theorists is only for that and for that only that each day I am growing more amd more desiring that Tobi turn out to be Obito.


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## mlc818 (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm a Tobito supporter, but Izuna is certainly a possibility.  The main difficulty is, as other comments noted, no one that's present to witness his reveal has any connection to Izuna.

Izuna is about as likely as any other random Uchiha that has no links to main characters; his connection to Itachi and Sasuke's "Uchiha brothers" situation is really the only thing that makes him more likely than some random side character like Kagami.  Of course there could always be a post reveal of his connection to Kakashi or Obito or Minato or someone, but I'd have to say that Obito presently seems most likely, with Shisui and Izuna being the next most likely candidates.


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## son_michael (Aug 3, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Yess its called a red herring
> 
> Also not completely wasted pabel time for Kakashi and Tobi staring. He has Obito's eye. And Kakashi being there is essential to figure *that* part out



and where does it go from there? How does naruto and kakashi have anything in common with someone that was in 2 manga panels? How are we supposed to relate to Izuna?

to have kakashi just be there to expose obito's sharingan is stupid


not to mention. You and most people are so against the theory because obito 'died" but you acknowledge its his eye. Well if tobi has his eye then it should be crushed right? You all argue that obito's body was crushed and for some reason ignore that people are brought back to life left and right and fatal injuries are healed in minutes...but you can accept that everything was crushed except for the eye?  


basically if its obito's eye then it means obito's body wasn't crushed. meaning he's most likely alive. 




> Obito's death was hardly off screen. We saw his left side being completely crushed by rocks and his final thoughts as Kakashi & co were escaping
> 
> As for recovering the body; they were in enemy territory. Not to mentioned people like Jiraya also didnt get their body recovered.



we saw his thoughts but we didn't see him die. Jiraiya's body was dead while sinking and he fulfilled his purpose so there would be no reason for him to escape death.





> No, Tobi has Obito's eye. That part is obvious. 99% of Naruto-readers figured that out last 2 chapters
> 
> In fact 90% figured that out even before Kakashi and Tobi were battling
> 
> ...



The mask stays on because he doesn't want to be uchiha obito, that's why he refers to himself as "no one"

its all psychological


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## Frostman (Aug 3, 2012)

son_michael said:


> seeing a madara face under the mask would the biggest troll move kishi could make. it would be completely anti climatic and invoke no emotion or suspense.



Im talking about the characters in the manga. If it was Obito, only Kakashi would get an emotional response. If it was Izuna, nobody would get an emotional response. If it was Madara then EVERYBODY would be wondering what the hell was going on. It would bring up way more questions.



> and tobi obviously has a completely different personality than madara too.



I never said he was a perfect clone. Just like Yamato isn't a perfect clone. Tobi is aware he is clone, hence the divergence in personality, hence why he referred to himself as nobody.


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## arokh (Aug 3, 2012)

Could be both. Izuna with Obito's eye.


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## Escargon (Aug 3, 2012)

What if Tobi is Kaiza?

And Kaiza is a senju? 

And Kaiza got Obitos eye?

The only proof i need is that the hairstyles are identical in the manga. 

The forum would explode:0


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## Khazzar (Aug 3, 2012)

Re-read this chapter again and notice how it goes in favour of Izuna = Tobi. See how much it explains about the sacrifice of Uchiha's for power and revenge.

Chapter 370

To me this explains why Tobi is behaving the way he does,why he is who he is.


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## Combine (Aug 3, 2012)

Just remember, Kishi's reveals of mysteries don't tend to be that shocking. The whole "who is Pain" mystery turned out to be the most obvious answer (Nagato)


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## Appleofeden (Aug 3, 2012)

I hate both but Obito is a far better option than Izuna @least with Obito there is the drama that will rise from Kakashi. If its Izuna it might as well be some random nin named Tobi.


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## Hexa (Aug 3, 2012)

Madara: Hashirama... I don't know what it is that you left behind... But their strength still falls short of yours! If you wanted your underlings to inherit something you should have taught them a way to revive you like I have been. The only thing you left after you died was the life force of your cells within me.  The only thing my brother left after he died was the power in my eyes.

Tsunade: I told you you're wrong!

Madara: If anything truly can be handed down... It's hatred.​
I interpreted Madara's statement more as him lamenting the fact that Hashirama is dead and gone. He's upset that Hashirama left no way to revive himself.  All Hashirama left was his body energy and all that Izuna left were his eyes. Madara's not really arguing about whether will can be passed down or not.  To Madara, it's either one leaves a way to be revived or leaves nothing (except body parts, I guess).  Tsunade disagrees with there being only those two options.

As for Izuna being Tobi, I guess the statement says that Izuna died without any plan for his own revival.  That doesn't mean a third-party couldn't just revive him anyway.  It's an awkward statement to make if Izuna's death was only temporary, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Izuna can't be Tobi.

But, I guess it's just that translation.  Takl's translation "my brother is dead and all that remains is the eye power in my eyes." leaves very little possibility for Tobi to be Izuna.


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## SaiST (Aug 3, 2012)

Hexa said:


> Madara's not really arguing about whether will can be passed down or not.


Oh no, never tried to imply that. He's basically arguing about what can be considered _"power"_. He does not share the belief that will has anything to do with it, but that Hashirama's cells and Izuna's eyes do. He believes that power is tangible, and that will contributes nothing to it.


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## Hexa (Aug 3, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Oh no, never tried to imply that. He's basically arguing about what can be considered _"power"_. He does not share the belief that will has anything to do with it, but that Hashirama's cells and Izuna's eyes do. He believes that power is tangible, and that will contributes nothing to it.


I don't think that's his focus with that conversation snippet.  I don't think he's making an argument at all.  He's just upset that all that's left of Hashirama is the body energy in his cells.  Tsunade objects to that, since she believes Hashirama handed down more.


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## SaiST (Aug 3, 2012)

True, it's not really much of an argument.

Beh, this is becoming more convoluted than it should be.


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## Combine (Aug 3, 2012)

I guess the main thing that does give me pause about it being Obito is why he'd be so surprised about Minato's abilities (within his own inner thoughts and monologues, not just what he just said to keep his identity secret) to the point where he clearly didn't plan to counter them at all.

The main reason I think it is Izuna is that it fits with the theme of things always revolving around the younger brother who's been overshadowed by the elder brother, be it Rikudos youngest son or Sasuke. That said I'm sure Obito factors into what Tobi really is, with the least being his eye.


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## KevKev (Aug 3, 2012)

I know I look desperate saying this, but I'm still hoping for  Evil Future Sasuke


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## Orochibuto (Aug 4, 2012)

I rather FES than Izuna anyday.



Combine said:


> The main reason I think it is Izuna is that it fits with the theme of things always revolving around the younger brother who's been overshadowed by the elder brother, be it Rikudos youngest son or Sasuke. That said I'm sure Obito factors into what Tobi really is, with the least being his eye.



Yes, elder brother overshadow the younger one this is why RS chose the younger one and the younger one was able to kipp the elder's ass away from the Bijuus and taking his body


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## ch1p (Aug 4, 2012)

Future evil Sasuke is just a pipe dream atm. The only person Tobi shows some "attachment" is Kakashi. If it it was FES, then he'd show attachment for the whole team. It's a pity, because I really am a sucker for those.

I'm still on the fence. Obito alone seems the most likely. However, I can't say the confrontation with the Fourth is favourable to him. So Izuna with Obito's eye seems very likely as well. If Tobi had retained a split personality, it would be a no brainer to me.


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## KevKev (Aug 4, 2012)

You know we could be really overthinking this lol, because Zetsu clone with Madara's conscience implanted kinda makes sense.  Well, not really after these past two chapters


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## Phemt (Aug 22, 2012)

Anonymouse & ceralux still there?

See you next week.



I don't forget.


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## xlab3000 (Aug 22, 2012)

its setsuna uchiha


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## Phemt (Aug 28, 2012)

IT IS DONE!

SHOW YOUR FACES NOW!

;D


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## LogicalShinobi (Aug 28, 2012)

Hello Naruto Fans!!!
Got a surprise for ya!


Well this whole suspense in the manga has reached a level which has forced me to get back to Naruto Forums.

Well we know that Kakashi has said that this Tobi uses only one jutsu.Well we know that this one jutsu is Kumai and is from obito's eye.

Are we not forgeting something here?

Well lets see we have 2 jutsu's mentioned.
1-Phasing
2-absorbing objects/people into the other dimension

Well what about the other jutsu tobi was using?

What am I talking about well I am talking about his teleportation jutsu.We know for sure 97.5% that its his sharingan that allows him to teleport right?

Ofcourse because we see him phase away in a panel and teleport away.
(When kakashi first sees tobi's sharingan!!!)

Hmmm...do you guys see where I am going here?

Tobi's teleportation jutsu is also included in that one jutsu!!! 


But that doesnt make sense right how could he teleport in that way.

Well this proves that in that dimension the way time works is totally different then we think.How? Well in that dimension time runs very slow compared to the real world.So Tobi travels... for example 3 days in that dimension but in the real world only 1 second has passed.Hence how he gets places really fast.

But wait 3 days 72 hours Oopps....Things are beginning to come together.

Remember Itachi's Tsukiyomi well that took kakashi to another dimension in which time was moving really slow!!

Very intresting!

Lets make another observation...remember how tobi so easily finds Minato after he teleports away using his Hirashin jutsu.Well this also explains how that happened.
Tobi phased to that dimension and started walking around looking for minato...probably looking at 1000 places before actually finding him but what in the end he finds him and in real life time only 3-4 seconds have passed but in tobis dimension he has been looking for him for maybe 2 weeks.Hence how tobi easily finds people and teleports to them.He moves in his own dimension until he finds what he wants.

So where does this bring us...we are still not done!!!

If some people say that Tobi is Obito has a big plot hole!!!

Yes indeed its a big plot hole. How obito who should be a young kid fought minato as an adult or maybe even old man.Some people said well that dimension is like the hyperbolic time chamber .Well i have just proved it!!!

This still doesnt cover other plot holes though!!
Please tell me what you think and remind me of other things i may have missed.



Thank You


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## BrokenBonds (Aug 28, 2012)

I am in complete disgust in myself for coming to this conclusion... But it is quite obvious, if I do say so myself, that the Masked Man is Obito Uchiha. I'd much prefer if it were Izuna, or anyone... But that is not the case.

The Masked Man's looks, Kakashi's reactions, the Masked Man's behavior, all logic suggests that he is Obito Uchiha. I dearly hope that I am incorrect, you have no idea how rejoiced I will be if I am incorrect.


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