# Complete Xblade Vanitas vs Xemnas



## Orochibuto (Feb 1, 2011)

Who would win the fight between these 2 monsters? Xemnas has the powers of all his forms, including the powers from his KH Final Mix fight at hollow bastion.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 1, 2011)

Xemnas wins this.

Lets just say him


*Spoiler*: __ 








When sitting down is a hell of a lot easier compared to when he stands up (I know it was gameplay but Jesus Christ).


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## Orochibuto (Feb 1, 2011)

Dont count out Vanitas yet, remember Vanitas one shotted at the same time 2 Keyblade Masters with an attack that missed and that was with an incomplete xblade. Remember Xblade exists alongside Kingdom Hearts the whole thing, so its power is on the scale while Xemnas merged with a cripple KH. I am not saying he wins as clearly KH > Xblade even if they are on the same scale I am just saying that you shouldnt count Vanitas out yet.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 1, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Dont count out Vanitas yet, remember Vanitas took out at the same time 2 Keyblade Masters with an attack that missed. Remember Xblade exists alongside Kingdom Hearts the whole thing, so its power is on the scale while Xemnas merged with a cripple KH. I am not saying he wins as clearly KH > Xblade even if they are on the same scale I am just saying that you shouldnt count Vanitas out yet.



I'm aware. It's bad enough that he can get back up no prob after being double teamed by Ven and Mickey or that after he fought Aqua (which the first time they fought that she got worn the fuck out) and got up like nothing. Or with a incomplete X-Blade he manages to destroy Ven's Station of Awakening in one shot.


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## noobthemusical (Feb 2, 2011)

basch71 said:


> Xemnas wins this.
> 
> Lets just say him
> 
> ...



Dude that move where you get thrown in the air, and the keyblades surround you out of nowhere is epic.

Although I'd probably give the fight to Vanitas with X-blade I mean really he was punking Mikey and Aqua like nothing in the final battle. He only lost because once Ven's defeated him inside his heart, The X-blade got weaker and so did the body. Also Aqua used power of Friendship hax.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Feb 2, 2011)

noobthemusical said:


> Dude that move where you get thrown in the air, and the keyblades surround you out of nowhere is epic.
> 
> Although I'd probably give the fight to Vanitas with X-blade I mean really he was punking Mikey and Aqua like nothing in the final battle. He only lost because once Ven's defeated him inside his heart, The X-blade got weaker and so did the body. Also Aqua used power of Friendship hax.



Master Xehanort apparently learned Gate of Babylon when we weren't looking. I was like


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## cnorwood (Feb 2, 2011)

was i watching the same keyblade graveyard battle as you? i mean he was beating aqua and mickey but its not like he was raping them


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## Orochibuto (Feb 2, 2011)

cnorwood said:


> was i watching the same keyblade graveyard battle as you? i mean he was beating aqua and mickey but its not like he was raping them



He 1 shotted them with an attack that missed with an incomplete Xblade.


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## noobthemusical (Feb 2, 2011)

basch71 said:


> Master Xehanort apparently learned Gate of Babylon when we weren't looking. I was like



And he also learned to fly.


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## Enclave (Feb 2, 2011)

Xemnas in a stomp.

Sure Vanitas was stronger than any of TVA but TVA themselves are at best around end of Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora in strength.  Xemnas totally babyshakes Vanitas, he's many magnitudes stronger.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 2, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Xemnas in a stomp.
> 
> Sure Vanitas was stronger than any of TVA but TVA themselves are at best around end of Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora in strength.  Xemnas totally babyshakes Vanitas, he's many magnitudes stronger.



How are you so sure they are weaker? They had for years a proper Keyblade training, they were as strong as King Mickey and Aqua was a master on her own right, while Sora got the title of "Keyblade Master" because there was no one else aroung with the Keyblade.

The only thing that makes me consider you may be right is that Lingering Will defeated the most powerful version of Xehanort and Sora cannonically defeated Lingering Will.


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## cnorwood (Feb 2, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> How are you so sure they are weaker? They had for years a proper Keyblade training, they were as strong as King Mickey and Aqua was a master on her own right, while Sora got the title of "Keyblade Master" because there was no one else aroung with the Keyblade.
> 
> The only thing that makes me consider you may be right is that Lingering Will defeated the most powerful version of Xehanort and Sora cannonically defeated Lingering Will.



im pretty sure sora donald and goofy beat the lingering will, and IDK if he had the same killer intent that terranort had


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## Orochibuto (Feb 2, 2011)

cnorwood said:


> im pretty sure sora donald and goofy beat the lingering will, and IDK if he had the same killer intent that terranort had



Where did Donald and Goofy defeated Lingering Will? It was Sora as far as I am aware, and yes he had the same killer intent, he thought Sora was Xehanort this is why he attacked him in the first place.

But again you are most likely right that Sora in KH2 is stronger, Xehanort in one of his reports admits that he became a heartless because "his body was too frail" which somehow seems to confirm that heartless and nobody versions are stronger than the original versions.

It was stated that the destruction of Ansem and Xemnas recreated the original persona of Terranort, I wonder how the fuck is Terranort going to fight against a Sora who will most likely be stronger than his KH2 self, this time it seems the villain is the one in disadvantadge.


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## Enclave (Feb 2, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> How are you so sure they are weaker? They had for years a proper Keyblade training, they were as strong as King Mickey and Aqua was a master on her own right, while Sora got the title of "Keyblade Master" because there was no one else aroung with the Keyblade.
> 
> The only thing that makes me consider you may be right is that Lingering Will defeated the most powerful version of Xehanort and Sora cannonically defeated Lingering Will.



Proper keyblade training?  Their mark of mastery exam was going to be stationary balls of light and once Xehanort made them start moving around it Eraqus was worried it'd be too difficult.

Also, Mickey it should be pointed out wasn't overly powerful as of BBS.  Remember, there is a 10 year difference between BBS and KH1.  Mickey got a LOT stronger in that time as did in all likelyhood villains such as Maleficent.

One thing is clear in the KH-verse.  Real combat experience is VASTLY superior to conventional training.  Sora made MUCH greater gains than TVA in MUCH shorter periods of time.  Hell, look at Ven.  At the beginning of BBS he was pathetic canonically compared to Terra, Aqua and Vanitus however by the end of BBS he was the equal of Vanitus and it was his travels through the various worlds that powered him up so much so fast.  Not only due to real combat situations but also because of the connections he made with others through his travels (which is one of the major reasons Sora's heart is so ridiculously strong, he makes connections easily and those connections strengthen his heart which in turn strengthen himself.  Hell, Sora has been making connections since the day he was born when he saved Ven's life, it comes that naturally to him)

Really if you look at the big picture it's clear that TVA are at *best* around end of KH1 Sora (most likely though even weaker).  The only possible exception is Aqua since we don't know how strong she's gotten while in the World of Darkness (but time runs differently there so even though 11 years has passed we don't know how much time has passed for her specifically).


edit:

Oh and Terranort will likely be stronger than Xemnas and Xehanorts Heartless for the same reason Sora got so strong after remerging with Roxas.  Terranort will gain both Xemnas' power and his heartlesses power.  So even though Terranort was weaker than both his heartless and his Nobody initially, after the merge it would make sense that he'd be even stronger than both.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 2, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Oh and Terranort will likely be stronger than Xemnas and Xehanorts Heartless for the same reason Sora got so strong after remerging with Roxas.  Terranort will gain both Xemnas' power and his heartlesses power.  So even though Terranort was weaker than both his heartless and his Nobody initially, after the merge it would make sense that he'd be even stronger than both.



I dont know what to think, it looks like a cheap form of gaining power to me. I mean the guy basically send his heartless and nobody to become the strongest of their kind while he just waited and then profit. Though I assume it is logical if Xehanorts pulls an Aizen and says "just as planned I have the power of the strongest heartless as well as the strongest nobody plus a direct connection with Kingdom Hearts".


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## Omnirix (Feb 2, 2011)

Not true. When a heartless and nobody got destroyed, their original form gets restored. Nowhere does it say said person gains additional power whatsoever. Its different from when Sora fused with Roxas and gained a power-up.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 2, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Not true. When a heartless and nobody got destroyed, their original form gets restored. Nowhere does it say said person gains additional power whatsoever. Its different from when Sora fused with Roxas and gained a power-up.



But Xehanort has to get a massive power up, otherwise I dont see him beating Sora who will most likely be stronger than his KH2. Sora prior to finishing his KH2 quest defeatedn the Lingering Will canonically, even the will admitted defeat to Sora and the will defeated Xehanort and this was Sora prior to merging with Roxas.


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## Omnirix (Feb 2, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> But Xehanort has to get a massive power up, otherwise I dont see him beating Sora who will most likely be stronger than his KH2. Sora prior to finishing his KH2 quest defeatedn the Lingering Will canonically, even the will admitted defeat to Sora and the will defeated Xehanort and this was Sora prior to merging with Roxas.



Apparently not at the moment. Even Yen Sid was confident that Sora and Riku can take care of Xehanort if he was alone. But I am pretty sure Xehanort's bound to get a power up sooner or later. He is the main villain after-all.


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## Disaresta (Feb 2, 2011)

Im fairly certain sora and riku are both stronger then TAV with maybe aqua being an exception as she has continued to progress


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## Orochibuto (Feb 3, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Apparently not at the moment. Even Yen Sid was confident that Sora and Riku can take care of Xehanort if he was alone. But I am pretty sure Xehanort's bound to get a power up sooner or later. He is the main villain after-all.



This power-up better be the fucking X-blade or merging with the complete Kingdom Hearts (not a cripple KH as Xemnas did) or both.


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## Omnirix (Feb 3, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> This power-up better be the fucking X-blade or merging with the complete Kingdom Hearts (not a cripple KH as Xemnas did) or both.



Or maybe getting back his youth and get back to his prime power


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## Orochibuto (Feb 3, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Or maybe getting back his youth and get back to his prime power



He basically got back his youth while becoming Terranort, he got all his powers + I assume some of Terra's power. I doubt young Xehanort is stronger than young Xehanort + Terra.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 3, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Proper keyblade training?  Their mark of mastery exam was going to be stationary balls of light and once Xehanort made them start moving around it Eraqus was worried it'd be too difficult.



I wasnt talking about the mark of maestry, I am talking that they had been Keyblade trainees for year all their life, and had as master the most powerful keyblade master so far in the game.

There are some harcore Keyblade abilities that Sora dont know as he was nevern taught how to wield the keyblade by someone experienced with it as the ability to shape his own world to be a suitable home for him and his keyblade trainees for example.


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## Omnirix (Feb 3, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> He basically got back his youth while becoming Terranort, he got all his powers + I assume some of Terra's power. I doubt young Xehanort is stronger than young Xehanort + Terra.



Oh yeah my bad.


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## noobthemusical (Feb 3, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Xemnas in a stomp.
> 
> Sure Vanitas was stronger than any of TVA but TVA themselves are at best around end of Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora in strength.  Xemnas totally babyshakes Vanitas, he's many magnitudes stronger.



Vanitas without the X-blade isn't stronger than TAV.

Ventus did defeat him fair and square.
And Aqua knocked him out for real in neverland, he just happened to wake up first. (Hell he could have been rescued we don't actually see what happens).

And Terra could defeat Old Man Xehanort how is possibly stronger than Vanitas.


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## The last Dalek (Feb 3, 2011)

I was always under the impresion that TAV were more skilled in the use of keyblades while Sora and Riku were just plain stronger then TAV.


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## Enclave (Feb 3, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> I wasnt talking about the mark of maestry, I am talking that they had been Keyblade trainees for year all their life, and had as master the most powerful keyblade master so far in the game.



Most powerful master so far in the game?  That's likely Mickey or Yen Sid.  Of course Sora and Riku are stronger than Eraquis but they've yet to undergo the mark of mastery so they aren't technically masters yet.



> There are some harcore Keyblade abilities that Sora dont know as he was nevern taught how to wield the keyblade by someone experienced with it as the ability to shape his own world to be a suitable home for him and his keyblade trainees for example.



While they certainly know more about how the Keyblade works than Sora and Riku their extra skill isn't nearly enough to make up for the massive raw power difference.  Not to mention that Sora and Riku now are quite skilled in combat even if they don't know of some of the more obscure powers the Keyblade has.



noobthemusical said:


> Vanitas without the X-blade isn't stronger than TAV.



He wasn't stronger than Aqua and Terra.  He was stronger than Ven until the very end of the game.



> Ventus did defeat him fair and square.



It was a fight between equals.  If Sora and Riku were to fight the fight likely could go either way, that's the sort of fight that Ven and Vanitus had.



> And Aqua knocked him out for real in neverland, he just happened to wake up first. (Hell he could have been rescued we don't actually see what happens).
> 
> And Terra could defeat Old Man Xehanort how is possibly stronger than Vanitas.



When I was saying that Vanitus was stronger than any of TVA I was talking about with the X-Blade.  It seems I wasn't clear on that.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 3, 2011)

Mickey more powerful than Eraqus? No fucking way, I dont know about Yen Sid though, he has never shown to wield a Keyblade.


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## Enclave (Feb 4, 2011)

Mickey as of Birth by Sleep is definitely not more powerful than Eraquis.  Mickey as of Kingdom Hearts on the other hand is a completely different story.


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## ensoriki (Feb 4, 2011)

I laugh at the idea of TVA being KH1 level.
Theres literally nothing in KH1 that wouldn't be a joke for them.
KHII itself is easily within their abilities to handle.

Theres such a throbbing Xemnas bias it's almost sad.
Xemnas and Ansem:SoD don't even have the memories of being Master Xehanort. The knowledge, the experience, hell Nomura even hinted that Xemnas had the potential to use a keyblade and just didn't. Like nobody weapons rival keyblades  oh wait they dont.

A complete Vanitas would win.
Vanitas has enough power at his disposal, to fend of Xemnas, summon the true Kingdom hearts, take it's power and win.
Simple.
Even then the only reason he'd need the power of kingdom hearts is because Xemnas already got power from a fake Kingdom hearts.
With the X-blade and the full KH at his disposal, this is Vanitas victory.

Vanitas can teleport away from all the potent threats. Get KH boosted and stomp.


For reference to those in the dark.
The Masters in the series currently are Aqua, Mickey, Yen Sid, Xehanort and Eraqus. Tera technically had the power but Xehanort manipulated the whole situation so that he could obtain Tera to begin with. Ventus himself can be argued at Aqua's level. The masters with the most experience is yen sid, least is Aqua & tera.
The current Mickey should have no problem with Eraqus, Eraqus like Xehanort suffers from the problem of old age. Yen Sid as the oldest should have this problem even worse then the rest of them, Mickey could likely beat all the current masters. Especially since he has what 10 years of experience after the events of BBS.



> Proper keyblade training? Their mark of mastery exam was going to be stationary balls of light and once Xehanort made them start moving around it Eraqus was worried it'd be too difficult.


The mark of master exam isn't training to begin with. Their training came before the exam. Eraqus wasn't worried it be too difficult, he thought some shit was went wrong, and he was right. He was suspicious of the things moving. Even then Xehanort plotted to make Terra & ventus stronger, and Aqua got stronger as a side-effect of his focus on the two boys.


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## cnorwood (Feb 4, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> I laugh at the idea of TVA being KH1 level.
> Theres literally nothing in KH1 that wouldn't be a joke for them.
> KHII itself is easily within their abilities to handle.
> 
> ...


i dont see anything done in bbs besides aqua beating terranort that would even be put at KH2 level


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## Enclave (Feb 4, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> I laugh at the idea of TVA being KH1 level.
> Theres literally nothing in KH1 that wouldn't be a joke for them.
> KHII itself is easily within their abilities to handle.



I got this far before I couldn't read your post anymore.  You do realise that TVA fought for the most part opponents who were weaker versions of what Sora fought in KH1 right?


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## Orochibuto (Feb 5, 2011)

Guys after doing some research I have to say that even if all feats say otherwise creator things BBS guys are stronger than KH and KH2 guys.

I have been reading the next KH Synopsis which is called Dream Drop Distance and Yen Sid personally trains Sora and Riku just to be able to fight because he is informed that the defeat of Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas resulted in the resurrection of Xehanort.

In other words Yen Sid thinks Sora and Riku stand no chance against a Xehanort that as far as we know has received no power up without a proper Keyblade Master training.

The whole game is going to be a training only to defeat Xehanort, they arent even going to defeat him till KH3.


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## Omnirix (Feb 5, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Guys after doing some research I have to say that even if all feats say otherwise creator things BBS guys are stronger than KH and KH2 guys.
> 
> I have been reading the next KH Synopsis which is called Dream Drop Distance and Yen Sid personally trains Sora and Riku just to be able to fight because he is informed that the defeat of Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas resulted in the resurrection of Xehanort.
> 
> ...



Quite the contrary. I already told you before. Even Yen Sid himself is confident that Sora and Riku can take care of Xehanort had he been all by himself. You cannot also dismiss the possibility that whoever Xehanort's new cohorts are, they must be super strong too as Yen Sid wants Sora and Riku to get a new power up before they face their new enemies. No doubt Xehanort himself will get a power-up as Aqua herself was much stronger than she was 10 years ago as she was fighting heartless the whole time.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 5, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Quite the contrary. I already told you before. Even Yen Sid himself is confident that Sora and Riku can take care of Xehanort had he been all by himself. You cannot also dismiss the possibility that whoever Xehanort's new cohorts are, they must be super strong too as Yen Sid wants Sora and Riku to get a new power up before they face their new enemies. No doubt Xehanort himself will get a power-up as Aqua herself was much stronger than she was 10 years ago as she was fighting heartless the whole time.



Where did he said that? Are you sure you arent confusing Xehanort with Xemnas?

KH 3D is basically a training, Yen Sid will train Riku and Sora up to the mark of maestry only to make them capable of defeating Xehanort who has just been revived.

In other words Yen Sid thinks that if Sora and Riku were to fight the revived Xehanort they would lose. And he has just been revived he had no time to get a power up, Xehanort should be as strong as when he divided between Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas.


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## The last Dalek (Feb 6, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Where did he said that? Are you sure you arent confusing Xehanort with Xemnas?
> 
> KH 3D is basically a training, Yen Sid will train Riku and Sora up to the mark of maestry only to make them capable of defeating Xehanort who has just been revived.
> 
> In other words Yen Sid thinks that if Sora and Riku were to fight the revived Xehanort they would lose. And he has just been revived he had no time to get a power up, Xehanort should be as strong as when he divided between *Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas.*



There's no reason to believe  SoD and Xemnas were anny weaker the Xehanort. It's not like they were each only half of the origional's power nobodys and heartless dont work like that.

Did you miss the part in Trunk's post about Xehanort having back up?


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## noobthemusical (Feb 6, 2011)

^Yes but regardless when the heartless and nobody fuse they reborn being should be as strong as the combination...

Also @Oro KH3D won't be just the MoM exam Nomura confirmed that only part of the game will be the test.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 6, 2011)

The last Dalek said:


> There's no reason to believe  SoD and Xemnas were anny weaker the Xehanort. It's not like they were each only half of the origional's power nobodys and heartless dont work like that.
> 
> I guess the power-up will have something to do that Xemnas achieved an incomplete merget with KH, I doubt this power is lost, though this is just speculation.
> 
> Did you miss the part in Trunk's post about Xehanort having back up?



No you missed my point, I actually said that SoD and Xemnas were stronger than current Xehanort. In fact Xehanort himself admits it.

So the newly revived Xehanort will have to be something very broken as it will somehow be stronger than SoD and Xemnas. As Yen Sid will prepare both Riku and Sora only to fight him, something Yen didnt felt the need to do against Xemnas.



noobthemusical said:


> ^Yes but regardless when the heartless and nobody fuse they reborn being should be as strong as the combination...
> 
> Also @Oro KH3D won't be just the MoM exam Nomura confirmed that only part of the game will be the test.



Yes but the game will be a preparation to face Xehanort, the entire game. I dont doubt Sora and Riku may fight some threats and pawns that Xehanort sends but they wont fight Xehanort until KH3.

I want that Xehanort this times achieve merger with KH, I want to see if this "will remake existence in his image" thing is true or baseless hype. Though sadly I doubt is, how is Sora going to fight an universal reality warper?


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## Omnirix (Feb 7, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Where did he said that? Are you sure you arent confusing Xehanort with Xemnas?


No I am not
Halberd




Orochibuto said:


> In other words Yen Sid thinks that if Sora and Riku were to fight the revived Xehanort they would lose. And he has just been revived he had no time to get a power up, Xehanort should be as strong as when he divided between Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas.






noobthemusical said:


> ^Yes but regardless when the heartless and nobody fuse they reborn being should be as strong as the combination...



Well its difficult to confirm atm. 




Orochibuto said:


> No you missed my point, I actually said that SoD and Xemnas were stronger than current Xehanort. In fact Xehanort himself admits it.
> 
> So the newly revived Xehanort will have to be something very broken as it will somehow be stronger than SoD and Xemnas. As Yen Sid will prepare both Riku and Sora only to fight him, something Yen didnt felt the need to do against Xemnas.


My vid saids otherwise. 





Orochibuto said:


> Yes but the game will be a preparation to face Xehanort, the entire game. I dont doubt Sora and Riku may fight some threats and pawns that Xehanort sends but they wont fight Xehanort until KH3.
> 
> I want that Xehanort this times achieve merger with KH, I want to see if this "will remake existence in his image" thing is true or baseless hype. Though sadly I doubt is, how is Sora going to fight an universal reality warper?


LOL at anything in Kingdom Hearts being anywhere close to universal. 
(Video game of Jafar doesn't counts, he never displayed the feats in the movie and gets defeated by Sora who is only skyscrapper-level)


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## Enclave (Feb 7, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Guys after doing some research I have to say that even if all feats say otherwise creator things BBS guys are stronger than KH and KH2 guys.
> 
> I have been reading the next KH Synopsis which is called Dream Drop Distance and Yen Sid personally trains Sora and Riku just to be able to fight because he is informed that the defeat of Seeker of Darkness and Xemnas resulted in the resurrection of Xehanort.
> 
> ...



The returned Xehanort will be stronger than Terranort as he'll be a combination of Ansem SoD's strength and Xemnas' strength.  It's just like how once Sora and Roxas merged Sora became MUCH more powerful.

No matter how much people want it to be, this isn't proof that the BBS characters are stronger than I've been claiming.

Also Orochibuto?  can you please link me to any interview where Nomura has talked about such things in the Dream Drop Distance trailer?  I've only found him talking in very general ways.  At no point did he mention that the mark of mastery exam was to prepare Sora and Riku for Xehanorts return.  Hell, if that was the case he would have had Kairi come along as well as she needs training up.

Really, the logical reason for why Sora and Riku are going to undergo the Mark of Mastery right now is because for one thing they are *more* than strong enough to be Keyblade Masters, they are currently skilled enough and finally they aren't under immediate threat so it's a perfect time to give them the test.

Meanwhile Kairi who actually needs significant training unlike Sora and Riku isn't included.  Why?  She's just not ready to take the Mark of Mastery.  She lacks the required skills and strength.



noobthemusical said:


> ^Yes but regardless when the heartless and nobody fuse they reborn being should be as strong as the combination...
> 
> Also @Oro KH3D won't be just the MoM exam Nomura confirmed that only part of the game will be the test.



The result is stronger, not as strong.  *Especially* in this case since Xemnas and Ansem SoD both had 10 years to power up before they were destroyed.


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## ensoriki (Feb 8, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Quite the contrary. I already told you before. Even Yen Sid himself is confident that Sora and Riku can take care of Xehanort had he been all by himself. You cannot also dismiss the possibility that whoever Xehanort's new cohorts are, they must be super strong too as Yen Sid wants Sora and Riku to get a new power up before they face their new enemies. No doubt Xehanort himself will get a power-up as Aqua herself was much stronger than she was 10 years ago as she was fighting heartless the whole time.



No thats false.
Yen sid is confident that Sora,Riku AND Mickey can take down Xehanort.
However if there is another person, then he is not sure.
Yen Sid's confidence that they can beat Xehanort if he is alone is based on Mickey participating.
Sora & Riku themselves are something he is not confident about, otherwise it wouldn't of been a problem. If Sora & Riku themselves could already take down Xehanort, then a cohort wouldn't be a problem because Mickey himself as the only current Keyblade master shouldn't have any issue with a pawn.

Aqua's strength now is completely unknown.
She doesn't have her keyblade, yes she's a master, but to be fighting heartless 10 years without a keyblade in the very world the strongest of them spawn...I don't know. 

Thing is, Ventus,Terra & Aqua were not given much end-game feats, the game really didn't allow for that in BBS.
Their strength is basicalled powerscaled to the level of the enemy they had to face.

The secret movie & days didn't say "well Sora & Riku can handle it". Mickey was already included into the belief that they could take down Xehanort. 

Yen Sid assumes 3 keyblade wielders can take down xehanort, not 2. With the possibility of help being there then 3 keybladers aren't sufficient.
This is different from TAV, because Ventus alone was able to beat the help, all 3 of them were able to beat the minions, the unversed, and Terra solo'd Xehanort at his strongest. Aqua then later mostly beats Xehanort at his strongest with a little bit of help from Terra at the end.

Why does Yen Sid think 3 keyblade wielders are necessary to beat Xehanort, especially when one of the 3 is already a keyblade master (Mickey)? It wouldn't make sense when a master level keyblade wielder and Terra who is technically master level could both beat Xehanort without assistance.

If it's simply Xehanort then Mickey as a keyblade master who's acquired 10 years of experience since being the weakest in days should be able to rival Xehanort now alone. Riku & Sora shouldn't have trouble with anyone lesser then Xehanort unless Vanitas himself showed up. Even then the two of them combined as they are now wouldn't have any trouble with vanitas as a pair.

We also know from Sora reaccumulating Roxas, that you do not obtain your nobodies battle experience. Even then the supposed power loss of Sora was not because he had a nobody, but because he and the nobody coexisted at the same time, which should not ever occur. For Xehanort, he would return to normal.
Worse yet for Xehanort is that he suffered from amnesia and never fully recovered from this amnesia. Mickey & Yen Sid also did not know Xehanort has a new body, they don't even know wht befell Terra.

Literally Yen Sid feels its dangerous if Master Xehanort, the dying old man from BBS reappears with assistance.
Yet he already had assistance in BBS, and he was beat.

Unless Yen Sid literally knows of another presence stronger than MX or Vanitas, why oh why would he assume that Xehanort has the assistance of someone as strong as himself (Xehanort) or stronger?

If Sora & Riku really were Terra & Aqua level at this present moment in time, then considering that both Terra & Aqua could solo Xehanort in his new body. Then with 3 Keyblade wielders Mickey,Sora & Riku who are at or above Terra & Aqua's strength, then it shouldn't matter at all, as for MX to beat them even with assistance, that assistance would most likely need to be as strong as MX alone.
If we think Sora is as strong as Aqua or Riku is as strong as Terra then they literally should have absolutely no problems with the new threat, add Mickey and they should be more then fine. Hell Kairi has a keyblade too, toss her in as overkill to beat the low level shit. Theres also Goofy & Donald who are also assisting.

So really if Sora & Riku were up to par, & considering that there are even more allies this time around then there were against Xehanort in BBS. Xehanorts allies would have to be stronger than him.

If Xehanort resorts to his amnesiac obsessed with darkness persona no he's screwed.

I see no logic in Sora & Riku being assumed at the level of T & A, as if they were then with Mickey being a keyblade master already, there would be no concern.

Mark of mastery is testing to see their strength if they're actually masters and to better them.



> The returned Xehanort will be stronger than Terranort as he'll be a combination of Ansem SoD's strength and Xemnas' strength. It's just like how once Sora and Roxas merged Sora became MUCH more powerful.


Thats false bro.
When Sora & Roxas merged, Sora was getting his ass kicked by nobodies, and Mickeys gangster ass had to come and solo that shit.
If your combination theory was true then Why did Roxas actually drop Sora to his knees in Final Mix? When Roxas has no memories of being Ventus, no memories of being Sora and existed only for year, especially when the heart he possesses Ventus' was already damaged almost beyond repair...twice. If this was the case and Sora was actually so strong the battles from when Roxas joined with him in Twilight town should have all been a cakewalk.

Even then Sora & Roxas are literally a completely different case.
Sora & Roxas are two hearts not one. You essentially have two keyblade wielders fusing in the case of Sora & Roxas, which is not what happens in the case of Xehanort. Even with Terra's heart (if Riku does not have it now) Terra has continually resists Xehanort, known to us from BBS secret ending, So Terra's power isn't even at his grasp.

What is the actual example, or supporting evidence that Xehanort will be stronger? Sora is a keyblade wielder has his own heart, Roxas is Sora's body has his own heart, Ventus, full keyblade wielder. Ventus' heart had been getting stronger inside Sora since Sora took him in in BBS, Ventus heart then gets to be on it's own in 358/2 days. Ventus heart had been getting stronger when Sora was asleep, why do you think that Sora fusing with Roxas made him stronger because Roxas is his nobody.

It's made clear time & time, that Roxas isn't giving Sora a power boost, Roxas is taking Sora's power. Your nobodies don't make you stronger they take your strength.



> The result is stronger, not as strong. Especially in this case since Xemnas and Ansem SoD both had 10 years to power up before they were destroyed.


So what? The 10 years doesn't mean anything.
If we use Sora as an example because he's literally the only example. When the heart & body came back, Sora did not gain Roxas' memories, hell Roxas never had any of Sora's memories.
It's just not how it works, hell it hardly makes sense that they'd be stronger. Xemnas is the body,  but we already know from Sora that being the body doesn't mean you suddenly gain the physical benefits, as Roxas doesn't even 1:1 look like Sora, the body literally changes to reflect the heart. So even if Roxas does 100 push ups, the body goes back to reflect Sora, so Sora gets no physical gain. We already see this in KH2. Sora wasn't more muscular or anything even though his Nobody had been physically active for all that time performing super human feats.


If Xehanort was stronger, the only reason it would be is because of Ansem:SoD being stronger, not Xemnas.
We already saw from Roxas & Sora that Sora literally did not physically gain anything as a result of obtaining the body strength wise.

Sora was the heart though, and the heart didn't lose power...which is why if Ansem:SoD was stronger than Terranort/master xehanort then okay theirs the possibility he'll be stronger. Based on the evidence we have though, then he'd just be Ansem:SoD strength, which anyone keyblade wielder but Kairi would fucking solo. Ansem:SoD being stronger hell doesn't even make sense, he's not a keyblade wielder, he doesn't remember being a keyblade wielder, he doesn't remember the years of training that MX had. Without the memories he's technically less experienced than MX, and isn't a keyblade wielder. So how the hell was Ansem:SoD stronger? Stronger as a heart maybe, but as a fighter? MX/Terranort was a superior fighter. MX could even use light & darkness.

Xehanort doesn't even technically need to be stronger from the start, if he comes back without his amnesia. Considering Master Xehanort could rend the very earth, teleport with ease, freeze you, use the darkness and had overall more experience than Xemnas and Ansem: SoD. Dudes what, over 60 and has been a keyblade wielder since what 20? At max, possibly less. 

Somehow it's being assumed that the warriors of the past are somehow weaker than the current warriors. Hell maybe with Mickey. Terra was holding off Vanitas & MX at the same time, Terra bested MX, Terra lost his heart & body, and still beat the crap out of the guy. So Sora who beats the nobody of the amnesiac version of that old man is suddenly superior? When even in the FM battle Sora doesn't actually beat Terra they just stop fighting.

Whatever guys. I don't see the sense that suddenly Xemnas & Ansem are now combined & shit it doesn't make sense at all.
We already know first hand that the memories of the nobody don't transfer to the heart. At least in Sora's case.

Though Sora & Roxas are a special case, if we base this off Sora & Roxas then Xehanort should not return stronger then he was. In fact if he returns to as he was before he became a nobody & heartless, when he was Ansem's apprentice, then he's not even a keyblader at that point in time and is weak as fuck with no memories of heartless, Nobody or MX.

There is the possibility that because Xehanort actually became a nobody & Heartless in the proper way, unlike Sora who "broke" the rules, that the memories do get transfered. In that case sure he could be stronger then he was as apprentice Xehanort, hell maybe even his Terranort form but that's also baseless.
Again if we go off the situation with Sora & Roxas, Xehanort has literally no guarantee of remembering anything Xemnas did, with a possibility of remembering what Ansem: SoD did. If we figure that Sora & Roxas are an exception and that there is room for Xehanort to remember Xemnas then okay maybe but then were just creating a theory and not working off of anything. To go even further, Xehanort would return as a human, Ansem: SoD had special powers as a heartless which human's can't perform. Humans can use darkness and control heartless obviously but they aren't the same kind of being. So it's not a 1:1 accumulation of power anyway you splice it.

What makes the most sense though is that Terranort/MX was exceptionally strong, which quite easily works as BBS does not include many feats and the feats MX showed were already impressive.
Furthermore, Xemnas was powered by Kingdom hearts but his kingdom hearts is gone, so what even if the powers were combined it would be likely that Xehanort would gain the power of Xemnas as an actual nobody, not as a KH powered nobody as KH is now absent from the equation (for now).


I literally don't see why it's an issue that MX and Terranort were just stronger than Ansem: SoD & Xemnas to begin with especially considering what Master Xehanort was able to do with ease.
Easily wrecked Land of Departure, easily rended up the ground, easily teleports, Easily freezes you, can split your heart in two blah blah blah.

I think it should of been clear when Xemnas the nobody can't even remember that MX can do these things, that there is a distinct possibility the Xehanort that will return is apprentice Xehanort, who isn't a threat to any of the wielders.


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## Enclave (Feb 8, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> Aqua's strength now is completely unknown.
> She doesn't have her keyblade, yes she's a master, but to be fighting heartless 10 years without a keyblade in the very world the strongest of them spawn...I don't know.



FYI, time flows differently in the World of Darkness.  By her perspective she's not been there for 10 years.  She actually hasn't even visually aged, so I would be surprised if she's been there much more than a year.



> Thats false bro.
> When Sora & Roxas merged, Sora was getting his ass kicked by nobodies, and Mickeys gangster ass had to come and solo that shit.



When they merged at the beginning of the game Roxas was resisting the merger, his power was being held back.  It wasn't until Sora and Roxas fought at Memory's Skyscraper that Roxas finally fully merged with Sora and thus Sora gained Roxas' power and regained his full potential.

This shouldn't be an issue for Xehanort though since he's being reunited the normal way.  His Nobody and his Heartless are destroyed and thus remerge.  The reason Roxas resisted was because he willingly merged back with Sora but didn't want to die, so he held back.



> Even then Sora & Roxas are literally a completely different case.
> Sora & Roxas are two hearts not one. You essentially have two keyblade wielders fusing in the case of Sora & Roxas, which is not what happens in the case of Xehanort. Even with Terra's heart (if Riku does not have it now) Terra has continually resists Xehanort, known to us from BBS secret ending, So Terra's power isn't even at his grasp.



Actually, no.  All Roxas got from Ven's heart was the ability to dual wield Keyblades and his appearance.  Ven's heart had no impact on Roxas' strength as his strength was taken from Sora when Sora became a Heartless (thus why enemies suddenly all got more difficult after Sora became a Heartless in the first game).

See, over the 10 years it's a very safe bet that Xemnas and Ansem SoD got stronger than they were after they were born in BBS.  When they rejoin Xehanort should have both their power just as Sora had both his own power and Roxas' power once he and Roxas finally merged near the end of the game.



> It's made clear time & time, that Roxas isn't giving Sora a power boost, Roxas is taking Sora's power. Your nobodies don't make you stronger they take your strength.



You're confusing what Nobodies do with what Xion does.  Roxas only took Sora's power once, he took half of Sora's power when Sora became a Heartless.  At that point he built on it through his time with the Org and afterwards.  Xion on the other hand, as she was absorbing more and more of Sora's memories she was actually stalling the revival process on Sora and was sapping away his power to power herself up.  She in fact was taking both Sora's and Roxas' power.  Roxas defeated her and regained his own power as well as Sora regaining what Xion had taken..

Also it's pretty clear, once your Nobody and Heartless rejoin completely you do become stronger since the Nobody and Heartless have power of their own and it's combined after the merge.  The only way I can see them not getting stronger is if the Heartless and Nobody do not get stronger before they're remerged, but that's highly unlikely especially since 10 years have passed since BBS.



> So what? The 10 years doesn't mean anything.
> If we use Sora as an example because he's literally the only example. When the heart & body came back, Sora did not gain Roxas' memories, hell Roxas never had any of Sora's memories.



Sora actually did gain remnants of Roxas' memories.  However after Memory's Skyscraper he did gain Roxas' power.  Thus why you see such a massive jump in Sora's capabilities after that fight.  He basically doubled his strength once Roxas fully merged with him finally.

Anyways, I may deal with the rest of your post later.  I don't have time to completely read and dissect it at this point in time.  But it is clear that Terranort is most certainly NOT stronger than Ansem SoD or Xemnas and he in all likely hood is significantly weaker.


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## cnorwood (Feb 8, 2011)

thats alot of reading but enclave is right


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## Omnirix (Feb 8, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> No thats false.
> Yen sid is confident that Sora,Riku AND Mickey can take down Xehanort.
> However if there is another person, then he is not sure.
> Yen Sid's confidence that they can beat Xehanort if he is alone is *based on Mickey participating.*


You maybe right about Mickey's participation, but when did he say that or implied anything of that of the bolded? Even he praised them for their strength. 



ensoriki said:


> *Sora & Riku themselves are something he is not confident about,* otherwise it wouldn't of been a problem. If Sora & Riku themselves could already take down Xehanort, then a cohort wouldn't be a problem because Mickey himself as the only current Keyblade master shouldn't have any issue with a pawn.


Erm......he is confident they alongside Mickey, are capable taking down Xehanort. He only tried to give them a power up after knowing Xehanort's not alone. He may as well say Mickey can take care of Xehanort all by himself if the other 2 are incompetent. But he didn't without first implying Xehanort's new allies. Not to mention, why say "cohort"? I said "cohorts", its possible Xehanort have more than just one helper and they are likely super-strong that can overwhelm the 3 keybladers at their current state. Xemnas had 12 powerful nobodies and he's not stronger than them as a whole to keep them in line.   



ensoriki said:


> Aqua's strength now is completely unknown.
> She doesn't have her keyblade, yes she's a master, but to be fighting heartless 10 years without a keyblade in the very world the strongest of them spawn...I don't know.


Oh yeah she doesn't. But, Terra and Ven's keyblades were also protecting her so she may not fight much. 



ensoriki said:


> *snip*






Enclave said:


> FYI, time flows differently in the World of Darkness.  By her perspective she's not been there for 10 years.  She actually hasn't even visually aged, so I would be surprised if she's been there much more than a year.


Not exactly, Ansem the Wise said that it has been a year between when he met Aqua and when he met Sora. He has been stuck in the Realm of Darkness ever since his machine blew up. I am pretty sure despite memory loss, he can still count.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Feb 8, 2011)

I cannot remember all the details, but I don't recall Sora actually getting stronger after merging with Roxas.

Are you guys sure that he did? Was the power boost in the form of Final Form?


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## Omnirix (Feb 8, 2011)

Colonel Awesome said:


> I cannot remember all the details, but I don't recall Sora actually getting stronger after merging with Roxas.
> 
> Are you guys sure that he did? Was the power boost in the form of Final Form?



Ansem the wise once said he holds half of Sora's power within him and in the end he have to give it back. But we know Roxas => KH1 Sora as he gained more strength and experience by fighting Heartless and training with Nobodies for a full year.


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## Enclave (Feb 8, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Not exactly, Ansem the Wise said that it has been a year between when he met Aqua and when he met Sora. He has been stuck in the Realm of Darkness ever since his machine blew up. I am pretty sure despite memory loss, he can still count.



Time flowing differently in the World of Darkness is straight from the mouth of Nomura.  Hell, I'll even post that part of the interview.



> -- At that point, it seems like Aqua has been lost for a long time
> 
> Nomura: Yes. From when she comes to the world of darkness to when she meets Ansem the Wise, over 10 years have passed in the outside world. The flow of time is different in the world of darkness and the outside world, so it doesn't feel like 10 years have passed. But there's no mistaking that she's been in the world of darkness for quite a long time



So as you can see she has most definitely NOT been in the World of Darkness for 10 years, at least by her perspective of time.  She's simply been in there "quite a long time".  Now I'd say a year or longer should qualify as "quite a long time" in such a sucky place to be and based on the fact that she hasn't visually aged, well a year or two seems highly probable.



Colonel Awesome said:


> I cannot remember all the details, but I don't recall Sora actually getting stronger after merging with Roxas.
> 
> Are you guys sure that he did? Was the power boost in the form of Final Form?



You see his improvement in the outrageousness of his reaction commands and the sorts of opponents he's suddenly up against.

Hell, not long after the merger Sora even ends up fighting Xemnas 1 on 1 and wins.


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## Omnirix (Feb 8, 2011)

Okay, but then how does Ansem the wise know that a year has passed in the realm of light since he met Sora? Did he just magically came up with a number?


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## Enclave (Feb 8, 2011)

Ansem is quite a learned man, it's possible that he is aware of how time flows differently and has a way to actually tell how much time has passed in the World of Light.


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## ensoriki (Feb 8, 2011)

Weaker how, Xemnas only comparable feats are when he gets kingdom hearts.
Unless you want to drop the feats for how Xemnas is somehow stronger than Terranort.

Yes she may not of aged in the realm of darkness but that doesn't mean things do not occur there, Ansem the wise makes it pretty clear you can be in the darkness for a damn long time. Ansem implies almost that theres no physical aging but it still feels like real time.

When does it say Roxas was resisting the merger. He wanted to meet Sora, Namine helps him out by telling him earlier that he won't disappear he's the one who willingly joined with Sora. There isn't a hold back to begin with, Roxas is Sora's body when they fuse Sora gets his body back bottom line. What is your backing for the claim that he's resisting? Resisting what, it's not the same situation as Ventus & Vanitas who are arguably very similar in that both have hearts and only one has a body. They fused and Vanitas didn't physically jump in power but more importantly, Vanitas only speaks of the incomplete merger only affecting the forging of the X-blade.
Where is the resist claim coming from, it's not mentioned in-game.

Xemnas and Ansem: SoD were not even born in BBS. I don't even recall if the exact time of their creation is mentioned but to be frank. Xehanort still spent significant time as Ansems apprentice. Them getting stronger is them getting stronger then the amnesiac apprentice which is hard when he has no actual power (that he remembers).

Time & Time again it's assumed that because of the length of time of their existance that they're stronger than MX, yet if the basis for that assumption is how long they've existed, MX/Terranort is one of the oldest characters in the game, well over 40, he's in his what 70's. So the apparent 10 years of these guys suddenly means they'll be stronger then a keyblade master of his age who then regains a body of his youth? Time of their existence doesn't mean anything, they haven't even lived half as long combined as MX/Terranort. He has experience, the keyblade, knowledge, things they do not.
What's this power boost going to be? Earnestly? New powers? How is Terranort going to be stronger. He's not gaining anything new he's gaining what he already was, he comes back into existence. Unlike Sora he doesn't exist at the same time as his nobody and get stronger at the same time.
What is there to make him stronger Eclave? What can Xemnas do that he cannot? What does Ansem:SoD do that he cannot? Merge with a heartless? I don't speak of KH powered Xemnas either, that would be ridiculous. Sora doesn't have "Roxas" power, if that's true even with you saying "Roxas was resisting" wouldn't Sora of recieved somewhat of a power boost? Yet that didn't happen at the beginning either. So suddenly he's hit with some giant boost at memory circle? Im supposed to believe that?

Are you using the difficulty of gameplay? Darksides are killed in one hit. Shadows are killed in one hit. Neoshadows are killed in one hit. Sora not killing them all in 1 hit is gameplay mechanics to begin with. Ventus heart gives Roxas emotions and even allows him to give Axel emotions, your saying it only gives him dual wielding, but it's been effecting his very relationship with those around him from the beginning.

You've got it twisted bro though my wording likely didn't help. I don't mean "take" as in steal. Roxas isn't stealing Sora's power, he's a duplicate of it. Sora doesn't weaken in Kingdom hearts 1 because he ends up as a heart given form which a person can technically stay as. Roxas has the body, and while the body can get stronger, when it goes back to Sora it will alter it's shame regardless to mirror Sora, as such regardless of whether Roxas strengthened the body or not it would go back to normal. Humans do not have nobody powers. Humans do not have heartless powers. There are powers that are mutually exclusive. A human doesn't gain a nobody weapon to be more exact. The powers of the nobody and the power of the heartless don't matter because those powers are not human. The darkness, light, keyblades humans can use that all fine, and Nobodies & heartless can use them too, but things like nobody weapons, shadows abilities are mutually exclusive. 

If the powers were not exclusive then Kairi would have direct power over Sora's heart right now from Namine. The nobodies abilities don't transfer their "power" doesn't.
The only real scrutiny should be whether the memories transfer but the problem with that is that if apprentice xehanort appears he really has no use of those powers except for those from his heartless. Since SoD uses darkness too that darkness is usable by humans and if he retains the memories of the heartless he can also use them. For Master Xehanort retaining the memories is important because it shows how the world has become and he gains the experience of SoD's usage of darkness, and who the threats are.

I feel that this idea that Xehanort comes back "stronger" is based on it being 1:1 but it doesn't make sense at all. An average human can't beat their shadow.
The heart is the real power not the body and we even know this from BBS when what Xehanort took from Ventus to make Vanitas, was part of his heart. Vanitas even when he acquired the body did not gain a sudden power boost only boost was his X-blade.

Unless you feel that Axel would come back with nobody weapons, but that doesn't make any sense with the relation of nobodies, heartless & humans.

When Xehanort comes back, if he retains the memories which in Sora's case are only leaks of the nobody life, he gains knowledge and from his heartless more experience with darkness. He doesn't get some bonus power boost he can't humans can't use nobody power nor do humans have the qualities of a heartless.

Xehanort really does not need this power boost everyones hoping for to begin with anyways, he's already strong enough to compete, and he's more than smart enough.

There seems to be some confusion of "power". I get the impression that you see Power as this pool that everybody has it doesn't differ in anyway it just increases and so when nobodies & humans return the pool just combines additively. This doesn't compute as we knew from KH1 for example that their was a stark difference between being human and being a heartless. If what you said were true then every time a person became a nobody & heartless even if they only lived in those states for a second they would be stronger when they came back. We know from the guy getting attacked in traverse town even for instance by an emblem heartless that heartless are stronger than a normal human. Even shadows are a threat, and nobodies are also the same, considering dusks, the weakest of nobodies can drop Sora. Considering nobodies & heartless are stronger than humans from their creation (unless their original was someone exceptional powerful) then their fusion would always make a stronger human. It doesn't work like that though because the powers are mostly exclusive, all 3 can dip into darkness though so because of that if humans retain the knowledge of their halves they'll learn something about the darkness. That's it though and even then humans cannot safely use the corridors of darkness.

"Power" in kingdom hearts is not some pool that adds up additively. A merging isn't Xemnas is a 10 and Ansem SoD is a 10 so Xehanort = 20.


He didn't double his strength that's fanfic.
Keyblade wielders just literally have a high rate of progression. If it worked additively than Roxas who is stronger than Riku without the assistance of darkness when added with Sora, Sora would outclass Riku from so much it would be surreal but we even see vs Twilight Xemnas how close Sora & Riku actually are in performance.

If anything Ansem (to answer the above) has a track of time. Even if you did age at the same rate of everyone in the realm of darkness, you still wouldn't know when a day passed or when a year passed. If anything he knows how to keep time of himself, as it doesn't make sense otherwise.




> Erm......he is confident they alongside Mickey, are capable taking down Xehanort. He only tried to give them a power up after knowing Xehanort's not alone. He may as well say Mickey can take care of Xehanort all by himself if the other 2 are incompetent. But he didn't without first implying Xehanort's new allies. Not to mention, why say "cohort"? I said "cohorts", its possible Xehanort have more than just one helper and they are likely super-strong that can overwhelm the 3 keybladers at their current state. Xemnas had 12 powerful nobodies and he's not stronger than them as a whole to keep them in line.


Thats what I said >.>.
He's confident the 3 keyblade wielders can stop Xehanort. He is not confident the 3 can beat Xehanort has assistance. Mickeys already a master and he knows Mickey's position of power, he doesn't for Sora & Riku so if there is help he cannot be sure that the 3 of them can cope, so he needs to make sure Sora & Riku are up to snuff.



> Oh yeah she doesn't. But, Terra and Ven's keyblades were also protecting her so she may not fight much.


They only protected her once. They came to her aid when she had given up on herself and was willing to let herself die. After that she regains her resolve. We already know that Terra has his keyblade, and we know that Ven's is chilling with him in castle oblivion. It was a temporary thing. It's not that I have any doubt she can't beat the crap out of heartless, she's a skilled magic user and thats her niche over Ventus & Terra, but...the realm of darkness is where true born heartless' live, so I just wonder how she can do that day in and day out.




> Hell, not long after the merger Sora even ends up fighting Xemnas 1 on 1 and wins.


Thats impressive based on hype but Xemnas himself before taking Kingdom hearts wasn't that impressive to begin with.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> No I am not
> bro
> 
> My vid saids otherwise.



He was saying that Xehanort not beign alone > Mickey, Riku and Sora.

Mickey is one heavy asset a full master and he is beign taken in consideration to beat Xehanort. So I dont think Riku and Sora alone as they are without beign masters will be able to duo Xehanort.



Heroic Trunks said:


> LOL at anything in Kingdom Hearts being anywhere close to universal.
> (Video game of Jafar doesn't counts, he never displayed the feats in the movie and gets defeated by Sora who is only skyscrapper-level)



It is not me that said it, was the game. I am not saying it is this is why I want to see a guy powered up with the full Kingdom Hearts to see if it is indeed universal warper or just hype.

And to those who say that Xehanort's Heartless and Xemnas enter into a different case than Roxas and Namine, chances are it wont.

Nomura:*"Still, I get the feeling from the story so far that Xemnas might also be a special Nobody."*


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> Thats impressive based on hype but Xemnas himself before taking Kingdom hearts wasn't that impressive to begin with.



This is because Sora was vastly superior to him, had it been easier to him it would had been a rape. I mean look at how easy 1st form Xemnas was in gameplay and how at the end he was laying in the ground while Sora was standing, without even looking tired and ready to continue fighting.

But Xemnas without KH merger was still one of the most powerful guys, he was the strongest of the organization, this is why it was required some of the strongest and smartest guys in the organization to play a coup on him and even then I remember Marluxia blackmailed an Org member into working with him by saying he would report his failure to Xemnas and the member was shitting bricks and begged not to be turned over to Xemnas.


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## ensoriki (Feb 9, 2011)

Im surprised someone other than myself thinks the state of the fighters actually matter.
I doubt the ease matters because he's said to be stronger than the others...though multiple nobodies were harder boss fights then him. So I wouldn't think the ease of the battle actually equates into something tangible. Compare this guy to his original MX/Terranort or even look at him in days. What can Xemnas actually do without KH?
As far as end-game goes he's not impressive.

Roxas was stronger then everyone in the organization except Xemnas in BBS. He beats Saix, Xion beats Braig, Roxas beats Xion who's recieved a lot of Sora's power by the end, as well as beating the normal Riku. The gap was never that big between Sora, Riku & Xemnas. Riku went into darkness mode and eased Roxas, and we know he's stronger than his normal body in that mode, and hell he can fight with Xemnas powered by KH in his normal mode. Whats the real justification for Xemnas hype, Riku with darkness should be able to solo the guy himself.

All this talk but how are Ansem SoD or the normal Xemnas stronger than MX? Based on what, the 10 years means jack shit, Roxas became the second strongest in hell technically less than a year. Xemnas and Ansem SoD are coming off as blank slates, they're original had no memories, and like Sora with Roxas all they get from those memories are leaks. Little snippets of Xehanort that got through to them like Xemnas adding an X to everyones name out of Xehanorts desire for the X-blade. Then Ansem's speech about all things being born in darkness which Xehanort originally says.

Xemnas without KH merger may be the strongest nobody, but not by much.

X-blade Vanitas would dust that version for sure. Bloodlust on? Must be trolling. Even if Xemnas starts to hurt him he brings out unversed, and will recover when they're defeated. Even in BBS he didn't need them to be defeated as he just absorbed them back into himself.

Only threat is what Twilight Xemnas, and he'll probably beat that too.
Lets look at some facts too, Vanitas tied with a master (Aqua) back in neverland yet Mickey who was NOT a master could save Aqua & Ven.
Imma put it this way the level required to be anything in KH isn't high by their standards. Theres a small power gap that is easy to ascend with the keyblade.


Also Axel says in KH II he's not getting turned to a dusks for Roxas. Xemnas little threat could be reducing them to dusks, which would be nobody exclusive anyways.


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## Enclave (Feb 9, 2011)

You know, it seems you use a lot of opinion and not a lot of fact.

Seriously, you say that 10 years is nothing?  Do you HONESTLY think that the characters didn't get any stronger in that time?

Hell, lets look at Maleficent.  Aqua fought against her and had help from the prince.  Meanwhile Sora fought Maleficent Dragon 10 years later (it is HIGHLY probable that Maleficent was stronger when Sora fought her than when Aqua fought her even ignoring what I'm about to mention) but not only was it 10 years later but she had just had her darkness fully unlocked by the Keyblade of Hearts and thus was even MORE powerful, hell she was practically drunk on the power she had just received.

Then there's the Ice Colossus which the journal even flat out says is a fake and we have Hades even point out that next time he'll use a real Titan.

Seriously, all you have to do is look at the caliber of opponents Sora has fought compared to TVA, Sora's were generally more powerful versions of what TVA fought.

Everything blatantly points to Sora being the more powerful character, just everything including actual feats performed in the game.

You severely over-estimate the BBS crew.  While TVA certainly have potential (especially Aqua) it wasn't realised in BBS.  I'm SURE Aqua is going to power up to the point of Sora and Riku come KH3, but she's certainly not there yet.

edit:

Also, I think you put too much importance on the title of Master.  It's not specifically a title that denotes strength but more about skill and control.  You also really do over-estimate Riku utilising Ansem SoD's darkness quite a lot.  He most certainly isn't a match for Twilight Xemnas.  Twilight Xemnas has been flat out stated by Nomura to be the most powerful being in the series.

Also, if you watch the Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance trailer you'll see gameplay where Sora and Riku are doing CRAZY acrobatics, shit we haven't seen in any other KH game.  The idea that these two characters are in any way weaker or even the same strength as BBS characters is just laughable.


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## ensoriki (Feb 9, 2011)

Stop your bullshit enclave. I didn't say they didn't get stronger, I said it means nothing. Look at the fact 10 years and they all get trumped same way. Maleficient gets trumped by an inexperienced kid who's been basically learning this keyblade stuff from scratch.
You literally think that this 10 years means some relevant power boost, yet that hasn't been shown at fucking all. So cut the semantics of "You really don't think they got stronger" the strength increase is insignificant, they're ass gets beaten same damn way.



> Seriously, all you have to do is look at the caliber of opponents Sora has fought compared to TVA, Sora's were generally more powerful versions of what TVA fought.
> 
> Everything blatantly points to Sora being the more powerful character, just everything including actual feats performed in the game.
> 
> You severely over-estimate the BBS crew. While TVA certainly have potential (especially Aqua) it wasn't realised in BBS. I'm SURE Aqua is going to power up to the point of Sora and Riku come KH3, but she's certainly not there yet.





> Seriously, all you have to do is look at the caliber of opponents Sora has fought compared to TVA, Sora's were generally more powerful versions of what TVA fought.


Thats all you have to do if your going to make a shit argument.
Nothing against you personally but what a joke, All of the enemies you mentioned are beaten without difficulty. Aqua delibertly holds Zack back so she can do the fight herself. The strength is based on enemies when the enemies shes faced shes had no difficulty with, nd the enemies who are actually relevant to discussion, Vanitas & Xehanort, she handled Xehanort without problem, and Vanitas could only take her to a draw. Even then she Stops Vanitas in a hit, and you can play that Mickey did something but all he literally does is stop the initial attack, he gets knocked back same way after and she finishes the fight.



> Everything blatantly points to Sora being the more powerful character, just everything including actual feats performed in the game.


because Sora fought a shitty nobody & heartless, that can't even touch their original?
MX would stomp them even with his handicap of age.
Titan so what, Hades is stronger than the Titans, and he's still beat. So what he'll add a creature superior to the one he assisted, but still weaker than his ass.



> You severely over-estimate the BBS crew. While TVA certainly have potential (especially Aqua) it wasn't realised in BBS. I'm SURE Aqua is going to power up to the point of Sora and Riku come KH3, but she's certainly not there yet.


Im not overestimating shit, im making the connections. Your doing the same thing everyone does and jumps the gun and just says "10 years- oh this must obviously be stronger" and think that the merge is like something out of DBZ. Why don't we look at how things have actually worked, Nomura can make whatever the fuck he wants but if we look at how the series has been, and what has occured in the story, your assumptions just don't add up. The 10 year gap doesn't equate, if it did Xehanort would still be stronger because he's one of the 3 oldest characters in the bloody game, where Xemnas & Ansem are 10 years old at max and even worse yet the person they are created from, apprentice xehanort, has no memories of being a fighter to begin with. They're starting from scratch. Roxas started from scratch 2, took him less then a year to be stronger then everyone but Xemnas in that fucking organization so what does 10 years REALLY mean. Nothing, that's not how the reality of the world works. Or do you want to really say that Riku, Sora, Roxas, Terra, Aqua, can all beat people with years of experience over them? If your power theory was correct then people wouldn't win to begin with. Hell if it was correct Xigbar, Xaldin and Lexaeus would be the strongest nobodies because they have the most battle experience out of all of them.
That is, plain and simple, NOT HOW IT WORKS.
Even if there is a power boost, it is not significant or hell even relevant to the discussion because time and time again we see that basing shit off the idea that they've recieved a power boost in a time gap doesn't equate. If it was true Roxas wouldn't of become superior to Riku...oh wait...he did. If the merge power theory was correct, Sora would be 2x Riku in power but that's not how it played out. 

Let's get real and look at what really happens in the fucking series, instead of using shittastic battledome logic that "Oh it's been 10 years, clearly they're the fucking shit now" when in those 10 years Captain hook, Maleficient, all still getting their ass beat. Riku being active while Sora's sleeping and by the logic displayed here should then progress past Sora, yet Roxas who's been fighting for even less time than Sora & Riku can beat Riku. Time doesn't mean anything but age and if it does then Master Xehanort would have more power then everyone....but Terra & Aqua both whooped his ass.



> Also, I think you put too much importance on the title of Master. It's not specifically a title that denotes strength but more about skill and control. You also really do over-estimate Riku utilising Ansem SoD's darkness quite a lot. He most certainly isn't a match for Twilight Xemnas. Twilight Xemnas has been flat out stated by Nomura to be the most powerful being in the series.


Your showing right here that you did not understand me Enclave.
I said Riku should've been able to take on Xemnas then because Roxas already outpowers everyone but Xemnas in the organizatioon, and Riku with darkness far outclasses Roxas, to where Roxas can't even react. I'm not talking about Twilight Xemnas, why the fuck would I compare him when Xemnas is powered by a Kingdom Hearts. I'm talking explicitly the normal nobody, same one Sora beat, Same one sora fought in KH 1 final mix. If the logic worked, then Riku is a match for Xemnas to begin with. I speak explicitly about this hype Xemnas has without Kingdom hearts. That being 10 years old means he and his nobody posse have some phenomenal powers, when Roxas already beat the critically aclaimmed Saix with less then a year of battle experience.

It's not even about Saix and Xemnas being weak, it's about the gap that the fans think happens, doesn't. It's not difficult to ascend in Kingdom hearts if you have a keyblade, period.



> Also, if you watch the Kingdom Hearts: Dream Drop Distance trailer you'll see gameplay where Sora and Riku are doing CRAZY acrobatics, shit we haven't seen in any other KH game. The idea that these two characters are in any way weaker or even the same strength as BBS characters is just laughable.


You need to get real with your gameplay. Especially when the limitations of the platforms influence the gameplay. To say what your saying is like comparing FF7 to FF1 in terms of gameplay to make an argument against FF1 when FF1 as a game itself couldn't even replicate the issues.
Hell again if Gameplay counts, then Ghost command style Aqua, will be fucking blitzing everybody. Does it count? I don't think so, but apparently according to you it does.
In which case GG.


Dream drop distance showed them kicking off walls and other such things, which is hardly as impressive as when they're running up entire towers or scaling cliffs, or jumping off them.

Your a visual person which may be all fine and good, but I swear your looking at how things "Should" be from a linear sense, and not how they've displayed themselves to be.



> Everything blatantly points to Sora being the more powerful character, just everything including actual feats performed in the game.


No, a linear perspective looks at Sora being more powerful. With A>B>C logic that
Malificient A is from BBS < Maleficient B is from KH < Maleficient C is from KH2. Without actually looking at what they do and the circumstances of their loss.

I don't hype the master title, I don't mean it as some kind of "power" but instead I would at least think when I mention it I'm implying the skill, knowledge and character attributes that are desired for a "master" to have. Sora & Riku are self-taught and don't know the things they should[/U know about the keyblade, and so then the fans expect them to go fight a guy who does know those things, and can and has put that knowledge to use. It makes more sense for Mickey to fight because Mickey has the knowledge. When Sora can't even open up a portal for himself yet, when BBS showed a keyblade wielder doesn't even need the dark corridor.

If Nomura does something like Advent children then it be easier to do this because you've have more consistency.
I'm going off the consistency and what's shown, and everything I said was based off things that happened. I made my arguments for power based off Roxas' progression, Riku's progression, Kairi's progression, Ventus progression, Aqua, Terra's, Xions. I'm not saying shit out my ass just for the sake of saying it. It would be easy as hell to say "well 10 years, 20 years, 30 years have passed, they obviously must be stronger" without actually looking at the consistency in the verse and the way power is actually displayed. 

Hell you could be correct, because I know Nomura has the liberties to do what he wish. But im saying straight up with what was shown, The Xemnas = 100, Ansem = 100 thefore Xehanort = 200 thing doesn't equate. That's not how it has worked, their is room for it to work as the situation for Xehanort is different than Sora or even Vanitas (with merging) but if we're going to go this route, we should be doing it based on the things that have already occured and Xehanort would not come back stronger because his nobody & heartless had their own respective strength.


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## ligerdrag20 (Feb 23, 2011)

Wow... good job making a complete ass of yourself


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## Bender (Feb 23, 2011)

Ensoriki stop wanking BBS chars


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## Vasto Lorde King (Mar 11, 2011)

Twilight xemnas>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>KH 2 sora >>>>>>>>>>>>>KH1 sora>>>>>Ansem seeker of darkness(guardian)<=Terra Xehanort(guardian)>>>>>>>Terra Xehanort>>>>>>>> master Xehanort>>>>Vanitas


LOL KH 1 sora can pretty much own Vanitas. Twilight xemnas sitting down would be a rapestomp.


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