# Ten-Tails Revival Arc: SM Naruto VS EMS Sasuke



## Raiken (Mar 29, 2013)

*Restrictions:*
Summoning Jutsu: Restricted for Naruto and Sasuke.
The Kyuubi has been Unsealed from Naruto.
Kirin Restricted. "Personally don't think he could pull it of anyway."
*Knowledge:*
What they knew of each other at the current point of the Manga.
*Battlefield:*
Valley of the End
*Starting Distance:*
30 meters. 
*State of Mind:*
Calm, going for the kill.
*Conditions:*
Naruto starts in SM.
Everything else goes other than Restrictions.
Both start at full Health and Stamina.

*How does it go down? Who eventually wins?*


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 29, 2013)

a calm ems sasuke has no problem instantly putting up level 4 susano & burning everything in sight with amaterasu and enton. you basically didnt do anything to restrict sasuke.

he doesnt use kirin anymore. every attack in narutos arsenal gets tanked & he gets burned to ashes by enton & amaterasu. sasuke low diff.


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## Krippy (Mar 29, 2013)

you need to give Naruto his summons for him to have even a remote chance of winning this


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## Raiken (Mar 29, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> a calm ems sasuke has no problem instantly putting up level 4 susano & burning everything in sight with amaterasu and enton. you basically didnt do anything to restrict sasuke.
> 
> he doesnt use kirin anymore. every attack in narutos arsenal gets tanked & he gets burned to ashes by enton & amaterasu. sasuke low diff.


Naruto starts with Taju Kage Bunshin, and spreads out across the map. Sasuke gets L4 Susano'o up, starts spaming Enton.
Takes out a fair few of the Bunshins being on the defence as they're attacking him with Rasengan Variants.
Rest leap into the air, and fire two FRS from different directions at Sasuke.
Sasuke's obliterated.

See what I did there. We can both make Naruto or Sasuke own the other with their powers.
But it's not quite as simple as that and you know it.


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## Cromer (Mar 29, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> a calm ems sasuke has no problem instantly putting up level 4 susano & burning everything in sight with amaterasu and enton. you basically didnt do anything to restrict sasuke.
> 
> he doesnt use kirin anymore. every attack in narutos arsenal gets tanked & he gets burned to ashes by enton & amaterasu. sasuke low diff.



Low diff? Are you serious right now?


Sasuke only pulls this off with high to extreme difficulty, -snip-


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## Raiken (Mar 29, 2013)

Krippy said:


> you need to give Naruto his summons for him to have even a remote chance of winning this


I can understand you thinking Sasuke has the advantage here.
But to say that he doesn't even have a remove chance against him.
-snip-. Do you even understand what current SM Naruto is capable of?


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## richard lewis (Mar 29, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Naruto starts with Taju Kage Bunshin, and spreads out across the map. Sasuke gets L4 Susano'o up, starts spaming Enton.
> Takes out a few of the Bunshins.
> Rest leap into the air, and fire two FRS from different directions at Sasuke.
> Sasuke's obliterated.
> ...



1. fire > wind so enton should be a good counter to FRS
2. I'd question as to if FRS could break through sasuke's current susanoo
3. If naruto spams KB's and FRS then he'll run out of SM and at that point he gets raped

See what I did there


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## Stermor (Mar 29, 2013)

naruto in sm has reaction speed better then kcm naruto(better then the raikage) which means he can dogde amaterasu.. better reactions compesating for the raikages better shunsin(both can drop shitloads of chakra in a shunsin anyway).. 

clones come out.. sasuke starts having alot of trouble following 1/2 clones.. naruto makes more.. eventually( really quickly) sasuke starts beeing unable to follow any of them.. 

and then he either has the option of setting the hole field on fire.. which is countered by a shunsin away.. just having sasuke expand energy at the possible cost of a clone or 2.. 

or naruto starts landing frses.. and well sasuke has no feats of tanking anything even close to a frs.. 

enton is nice and all but sasuke is to slow.. he has crappy(relative) reaction speed.. he couldn't follow the raikage at all.. it wasn't that he had trouble.. but he couldn't at all.. there is a decent gap between that.. and naruto in sm easily falls into that category..



richard lewis said:


> 1. fire > wind so enton should be a good counter to FRS
> 2. I'd question as to if FRS could break through sasuke's current susanoo
> 3. If naruto spams KB's and FRS then he'll run out of SM and at that point he gets raped
> 
> See what I did there



which only works if sasuke is capable of targeting frses in time.. and with the aoe of frs.. that is unlikely.. especially when distracted.. 

sasuke susanoo was breached by much weaker attacks.. it is up to you to prove a stronger version can when even madara thought a frs was a bit to much.. 

not really. naruto can literly shunsin away regain sm in seconds and then run back(fun thing is he can have clones do it).. and naruto should have no problems throwing several frses.. plenty to take out sasuke..


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## Raiken (Mar 29, 2013)

Cromer said:


> Low diff? Are you serious right now?
> 
> 
> Sasuke only pulls this off with high to extreme difficulty, your fanboyism to the contrary.


To be honest, I was kind of thinking Sasuke's Victory: Very High Difficulty.
But obviously there is possibilities for Naruto to win. That's what we're debating, how it would go down.
Yet some people say current EMS Sasuke takes current SM Naruto low difficulty. I mean, really?



richard lewis said:


> 1. fire > wind so enton should be a good counter to FRS
> 2. I'd question as to if FRS could break through sasuke's current susanoo
> 3. If naruto spams KB's and FRS then he'll run out of SM and at that point he gets raped
> 
> See what I did there


Feats prove Naruto can create more Sage Chakra to re-enter Sage Mode almost instantly.
So that isn't an issue as long as his Base Chakra holds up.


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## Stermor (Mar 29, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Feats prove Naruto can create more Sage Chakra to re-enter Sage Mode almost instantly.
> So that isn't an issue as long as his Base Chakra holds up.



which created thousand?? clones wielding cho odama rasengans against madara chakra pool shouldn't be a problem at this point..


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 29, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Naruto starts with Taju Kage Bunshin, and spreads out across the map. Sasuke gets L4 Susano'o up, starts spaming Enton.
> Takes out a fair few of the Bunshins being on the defence as they're attacking him with Rasengan Variants.
> Rest leap into the air, and fire two FRS from different directions at Sasuke.
> Sasuke's obliterated.
> ...


naruto didnt think that rasenshuriken would destroy madaras lvl 2 incomplete susano but you think it has any chance of even scratching sasukes lvl 4 complete susano? sad.


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## ueharakk (Mar 29, 2013)

Naruto needs Ma and Pa (in other words indefinite sage mode) to compete.  Without it, he becomes instantly exhausted when he exits the mode which would allow Sasuke the opportunity to end him, and if he wants to do the clone method, he's going to be restricted from clone spam (unless he sends a clone to gather natural energy right before SM ends).  
The worst part is that Naruto can only fire 3 FRS at a time and Sasuke with his enton arsenal is going to make it nigh impossible for all 3 to connect.

Sasuke wins mid diff.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto didnt think that rasenshuriken would destroy madaras lvl 2 incomplete susano but you think it has any chance of even scratching sasukes lvl 4 complete susano? sad.


when was this ever implied?  

Madra's susanoo wasn't even level 2, it was muscular/skin which is very close to a lvl3.  Naruto opting to throw the FRS at an unprotected madara in no way means his FRS wouldn't have destroyed the susanoo, at best it implies that it wouldn't be able to both destroy his susanoo and kill madara at the same time.


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## Stermor (Mar 29, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto didnt think that rasenshuriken would destroy madaras lvl 2 incomplete susano but you think it has any chance of even scratching sasukes lvl 4 complete susano? sad.



madara kinda thought frs was a bit to much for his full sized susanoo to handle and absorbed it rather then summon susanoo as he had done against a cho odama rasengan.. 

if madara thought it a bit to much what chance does sasuke have ?



ueharakk said:


> Naruto needs Ma and Pa (in other words indefinite sage mode) to compete.  Without it, he becomes instantly exhausted when he exits the mode which would allow Sasuke the opportunity to end him, and if he wants to do the clone method, he's going to be restricted from clone spam (unless he sends a clone to gather natural energy right before SM ends).
> The worst part is that Naruto can only fire 3 FRS at a time and Sasuke with his enton arsenal is going to make it nigh impossible for all 3 to connect.
> 
> Sasuke wins mid diff.



he only became exhausted from using kcm to much .. and you are now talking about a clone that already was close to exhaustion even before going in to sm.. i really don't think naruto will be so exhausted, if he didn't previously fought for a while.. 

anyway since he can pretty much gather nature energy in a split second.. clones still become viable.. it is unlikely that a clone will pop(distract) the split second naruto is gathering nature energy.. and even then he could still do that a few times during the pain fight.. 

it is ofcourse also possible naruto himself just gathers nature energy a decent lentgh away while clones attack sasuke.. and then he is no longer limited on clones or nature chakra.. 

also how is sasuke ever going to use enton on 3 frses at the same time?? he kinda needs eyesight.. and naruto is smart enough to try from different directions.. at best he can take them out 1 at a time.. 

also he can spend a cho odama rasengan clone infront of the frs to protect it.. take the blow..


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto needs Ma and Pa (in other words indefinite sage mode) to compete.  Without it, he becomes instantly exhausted when he exits the mode which would allow Sasuke the opportunity to end him, and if he wants to do the clone method, he's going to be restricted from clone spam (unless he sends a clone to gather natural energy right before SM ends).
> The worst part is that Naruto can only fire 3 FRS at a time and Sasuke with his enton arsenal is going to make it nigh impossible for all 3 to connect.
> 
> Sasuke wins mid diff.
> ...



no, my interpretation is pretty much implied. naruto holds back frs while gaara talks about how madara is just like sasuke &* outer attacks wont work*. gaara then pulls madara out of susano then naruto proceeds to launch frs.


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## Krippy (Mar 29, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> I can understand you thinking Sasuke has the advantage here.
> But to say that he doesn't even have a remove chance against him.
> Some serious bias. Do you even understand what current SM Naruto is capable of?



Without his summons and without Kurama, Naruto will fall prey to his Enton spam or his genjutsu, he's not fast enough to physically avoid Amaterasu and Enton magatama's will destroy his clones

he needs Ma and Pa here to block his LOS with dust cloud, otherwise Sasuke takes with with reletively low diff

Magatama's should nullify FRS's as well so he is essentially fucked


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## ueharakk (Mar 29, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no, my interpretation is pretty much implied. naruto holds back frs while gaara talks about how madara is just like sasuke &* outer attacks wont work*. gaara then pulls madara out of susano then naruto proceeds to launch frs.


[/QUOTE]

Once again, how does that imply that FRS would not have destroyed that susanoo?  Even if the susanoo was destroyed and Madara didn't receive lethal damage, then Gaara's statement about external attacks won't work would still hold true.

And Gaara's statement has been proven false on more than 1 occasion in addition to the fact that he doesn't even know how powerful FRS is.


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## ueharakk (Mar 29, 2013)

Stermor said:


> he only became exhausted from using kcm to much .. and you are now talking about a clone that already was close to exhaustion even before going in to sm.. i really don't think naruto will be so exhausted, if he didn't previously fought for a while..


No, I wasn't talking about the clone, I was talking about the original who became exhausted after throwing the 3 FRS to stop the Juubi's mokuton hailstorm.  He became instantly exhausted after that and it's partly the reason why Neiji died.



Stermor said:


> anyway since he can pretty much gather nature energy in a split second.. clones still become viable.. it is unlikely that a clone will pop(distract) the split second naruto is gathering nature energy.. and even then he could still do that a few times during the pain fight..


this is true



Stermor said:


> it is ofcourse also possible naruto himself just gathers nature energy a decent lentgh away while clones attack sasuke.. and then he is no longer limited on clones or nature chakra..


no i think that the clone limit would still apply to naruto as concentration is what limits the amount of clones he can make, and the original does have to concentrate in order to hold the shadow clone tech.



Stermor said:


> also how is sasuke ever going to use enton on 3 frses at the same time?? he kinda needs eyesight.. and naruto is smart enough to try from different directions.. at best he can take them out 1 at a time..


I said it's nigh impossible for him to connect all 3 FRS, not that it's nigh impossible for him to connect any of the three.  That would mean Sasuke takes out at least 1 of the FRS.



Stermor said:


> also he can spend a cho odama rasengan clone infront of the frs to protect it.. take the blow..


FRS are much faster than SM Naruto's running speed, he's going to have to send the clone out long before.


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## Stermor (Mar 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> No, I wasn't talking about the clone, I was talking about the original who became exhausted after throwing the 3 FRS to stop the Juubi's mokuton hailstorm.  He became instantly exhausted after that and it's partly the reason why Neiji died.
> 
> no i think that the clone limit would still apply to naruto as concentration is what limits the amount of clones he can make, and the original does have to concentrate in order to hold the shadow clone tech.
> 
> FRS are much faster than SM Naruto's running speed, he's going to have to send the clone out long before.



oh.. but that wasn't sm mode right?? his bm ran out?? hum i'll check.. anyway he still returned back to health few seconds later.. 

i always thought the limit of clones was imposed because multiple memory's hitting naruto at ones interrupt the concentration?? he has never shown any concentration problems summoning 100s of clones.. and all clones are capable of thought.. 

anyway even with 5 clones sasuke is going to have a really shitty time trying to keep up.. 

and ye but i would asume that would work more or less like against pain where rocks where transformed kage bunshins.. that show up when needed..


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## Ghost (Mar 29, 2013)

Sasuke destroys. And again, he can set up Kirin easily.


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## αce (Mar 29, 2013)

Using summons against a Mangekyou user isn't the wisest of ideas.


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## Jizznificent (Mar 29, 2013)

naruto gets his ass kicked. 

with ma and pa naruto's chances of winning would increase a bit but sasuke would ultimately still be the dominant one of the two. naruto's big boss summons wouldn't change much since they would just be a big target for amaterasu/enton.


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## Raiken (Mar 29, 2013)

Why do you guys think Sasuke would win easily?
I mean; I agree that Sasuke probably has the advantage.
But win low difficulty?
Come on,  current SM Naruto can put up more of a challenge than that.
Either Sasuke wins with a kill shot. If he can get one in on him
Or Naruto's performance in the battle allows him to survive long enough to outlast Sasuke. And wins.
And if he can get 2 FRS in on Sasuke's Susano'o. That's likely Sasuke done for.


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## richard lewis (Mar 29, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Feats prove Naruto can create more Sage Chakra to re-enter Sage Mode almost instantly.
> So that isn't an issue as long as his Base Chakra holds up.



He can enter SM instantly but his time in SM is still limited, we've only seen him using it in short bursts not over long time periods.



Stermor said:


> which created thousand?? clones wielding cho odama rasengans against madara chakra pool shouldn't be a problem at this point..



Actually he was using kurama's chakra when he did that 

AoE


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## Raiken (Mar 29, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> He can enter SM instantly but his time in SM is still limited, we've only seen him using it in short bursts not over long time periods.


Yes that's true. But the point is, that after that short burst is over: After 3 FRS or 1 or 2 FRS + other Technique's; or just over 5 Minutes, to our knowledge.
He can almost instantly re-enter it. So the fact that it only allows for a short bust if he uses his more powerful technique's is a moot point.
Like I said, as long as his Base Chakra holds up, and he can literally just get, a couple of seconds without being relentlessly attacked. Which considering the attacks that would be used on Sasuke before dropping out of Sage Mode. I'm sure that'll be managed.
He can carry on in Sage Mode throughout the entire fight.


richard lewis said:


> Actually he was using kurama's chakra when he did that
> 
> AoE


That is true. Although, from what we seen; that Chakra didn't have any special properties. It gave him no kind of aura or any noticeable augmentation.
So it's logical to assume that Kurama simply filled Naruto's Base Chakra up. And he spent *all* of it on that attack.
So it certainly wouldn't be something Base Naruto could use multiple times.
But we're talking about Sage Mode here, and that feat is far surpassed by one already established.

*Spoiler*: __ 







I imagine Sasuke would have really hard time dealing with that Combo:
Senpo: Cho-Oodama Rasen Tarengan. Followed immediately by a Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 29, 2013)

Sasuke takes this easily.

Itachi's Skeletal Susanoo (Level 2)took on Kirin, protecting him from the blast but he was knocked on the floor, still alive and well. Kirin>FRS in power so Sasuke's V3 Susanoo should be able to block it while his V4 Susanoo should be able to block it with moderate damage. FRS is Naruto's strongest tech and he can only fire off 3 due to limited Sage chakra, and that isn't even considering the other moves he may use. Not to mention Enton Magatama should be able to block FRS. If he fires multiple FRS in multiple directions he could block one with Susanoo and counter the other with Magatama.

If him or any of his clones get close Enton burns them up. Enton sword, Kagutsuchi, and Magatama take care of clone spam+Rasengan combo.

When Naruto leaves SM he has already been shown to be exhausted. If he runs out of SM an arrow takes out an exhausted Base Naruto with ease.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 29, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Underlined=Your argument really doesn't suggest that.
> Bolded=Complete Assumption. *Itachi re-created that Susano'o after the first one he used was obliterated.*
> For all we know, Itachi could have gone right into L4 Susano'o off the bat. We have no idea.
> So we have no basis for how strong a Susano'o took Kirin. But whatever it was, it was obliterated by it, only just managing to protect the user, which still received some damage.



That Susanoo reforming after the blast and Itachi noting that he only survived due to this strongly implies that it was the one that blocked Kirin.

I also highly doubt Kirin managed to obliterate a level 4 Susanoo equipped with Yata Mirror AND damage Itachi.



> And you talk like Naruto's going to get exhausted from using Techs before Sasuke, I mean, really? Naruto's Stamina shits on Sasuke's.
> Sasuke will be on his knee's coughing up blood from Susano'o over-usage before Naruto's exhausted from exiting Sage Mode.



I really hope you are joking because what you said makes absolutely no sense at all. SM only lasts for 5 minutes and after he loses it he becomes exhausted, already shown in the manga. 
If you think Sasuke is going to be coughing up blood due to Susanoo despite EMS removing  the strain of MS techniques (hence Sasuke being able to use multiple Amaterasu's with no sign of physical strain) after only 5 minutes then you are really kidding yourself.



Cryorex said:


> Also, you guys talk like Sasuke can keep Susano'o up indefinitely through the whole fight.
> When his past fights have shown that's not the case. He uses it for short bursts, a lot shorter bursts than Sage Mode.
> Likely because if he kept it up constantly throughout a fight. His Chakra would go down, very fast.



Why are you even mentioning his past fights here when EMS completely changes the tables? MS Strain was the main reason Susanoo couldn't be held up so long and EMS completely renders that strain non existent. He was able to use a V2 and V3 Susanoo during the whole Danzo fight and that was with MS and the strain that it gives. The longest this fight is going to last is 5 min as Naruto can't evade arrows or Amaterasu while he is in Base mode exhausted.


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## Raiken (Mar 29, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> That Susanoo reforming after the blast and Itachi noting that he only survived due to this strongly implies that it was the one that blocked Kirin.
> 
> I also highly doubt Kirin managed to obliterate a level 4 Susanoo equipped with Yata Mirror AND damage Itachi.


Your point is invalid as you can use Susano'o weapons at any Susano'o level, this has already been proven.


> I really hope you are joking because what you said makes absolutely no sense at all. SM only lasts for 5 minutes and after he loses it he becomes exhausted, already shown in the manga.


Yes that has been shown in the Manga. Since then Naruto has shown more proficient use of Sage Mode.
And very quickly recovered from SM after using 3 FRS. And also fighting a hell of a lot before hand.
So that wouldn't be a major issue, as it would only serve as a minor delay.
And he would promptly re-enter Sage Mode. Which he's shown to be able to do almost instantly.


> If you think Sasuke is going to be coughing up blood due to Susanoo despite EMS removing  the strain of MS techniques (hence Sasuke being able to use multiple Amaterasu's with no sign of physical strain) after only 5 minutes then you are really kidding yourself.


Haha, wow. And what proof do you have that EMS in "FACT" makes  MS techniques, primarily Susano'o; incur less/no physical strain on the users Body?
Because to my knowledge, your point is completely invalid. So we can only use evidence of pro-longed Susano'o usage from the past (VS Danzou).
And 5 minutes is a long time in a fight. And it's a fact that Naruto worked on improving how long he can hold Sage Mode. But that doesn't matter anyway.
As he usually uses Sage Chakra up before running out of time. After which he can simply re-enter it.


> Why are you even mentioning his past fights here when EMS completely changes the tables?


That's some imagination of yours. Because so far. Sasuke's EMS has just been an unblindable MS, with just an aesthetically different L4 Susano'o.
Nothing has suggested otherwise.


> MS Strain was the main reason Susanoo couldn't be held up so long and EMS completely renders that strain non existent. He was able to use a V2 and V3 Susanoo during the whole Danzo fight and that was with MS and the strain that it gives. The longest this fight is going to last is 5 min as Naruto can't evade arrows or Amaterasu while he is in Base mode exhausted.


Yes the MS strain problem has been removed, like what happened when he was fighting Kakashi. And he didn't use L2/L3 Susano'o constantly, he was using it for bursts.
But this issue, The Susano'o strain on the Physical Body, to our knowledge, still remains:

*Spoiler*: __ 









And in pretty much every other panel that I didn't link, in which he's using Susano'o in, he's huffing and panting, showing exhaustion.


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## Sans (Mar 30, 2013)

Sasuke wins because Kishi wouldn't draw his brand new Eternal Mangekyou losing to a transformation two modes out of date.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 30, 2013)

Whichever way we look at it, Sasuke emerges the victor here. From an in-story point of view, what Komnenos says is actually correct. The manga's current flow would dictate that Naruto will use the Kyūbi to try and combat Sasuke. I mean, the whole reason Naruto bothered trying to master the Kyūbi was because he didn't think he could defeat Sasuke without it, and this was seeing Sasuke with only the _normal_ Mangekyō Sharingan.

From a feat-comparison however, it's still not a particularly close match. 

With Naruto starting with Sennin Mōdō, he might not die _instantly_ as he would if he started with base, but the fight is going to be uphill for Naruto from the get-go, since Sasuke has the tendency to start with _Susano'o_ these days, now that he can afford it. And bear in mind his _Susano'o_ is armed with an _Enton: Yasaka no Magatama_, as well as a generic chakra sword, which is probably still enhanced with the flames.

As a result, Naruto is probably going to be trying to survive in this battle, rather than actually win. _Kage Bunshin no Jutsu_ is probably going to be worthless here, since Sasuke's crowd control abilities these days are ridiculous, and with the threat of very fast flaming arrows, orbs of black flames and . . . a lot of other stuff, it's only a matter of time until Naruto runs out of natural energy to sustain Sennin Mōdō and dies.



> Susano'o weapons at any Susano'o level, this has already been proven.



The _Yata no Kagami_ and _Totsuka no Tsurugi_ aren't _Susano'o_ weapons. According to Zetsu, they are spiritual items that Itachi found himself . . . somehow.


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## Raiken (Mar 30, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Sasuke wins because Kishi wouldn't draw his brand new Eternal Mangekyou losing to a transformation two modes out of date.


So what. By that logic. You think:
SM Naruto = MS Sasuke
CM1 Naruto = EMS Sasuke

Because: CM2/Bijuu Mode Naruto would obliterate Sasuke.
Unless Sasuke has a massive power up on the way.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 30, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Your point is invalid as you can use Susano'o weapons at any Susano'o level, this has already been proven.


Lol, nice try. Certain weapons only manifest at certain levels. If you are trying to imply Itachi used the mirror to block you better go bring me scans of V2 Susanoo ever wielding Yata Mirror. I'll be waiting. Not to mention they aren't even Susanoo weapons, they are spiritual weapons equipped to Susanoo. Also how is his V2 Susanoo going to hold a mirror when it has no arms? Did you even think before you decided to post this?



> Yes that has been shown in the Manga. Since then Naruto has shown more proficient use of Sage Mode.
> *And very quickly recovered* from SM after using 3 FRS. And also fighting a hell of a lot before hand.
> So that wouldn't be a major issue, as it would only serve as a minor delay.
> And he would promptly re-enter Sage Mode. Which he's shown to be able to do almost instantly


.
Quickly recovered you say? We must be reading separate manga.

He got tired after exiting SM right here and then collapsed. He need Hinata to save him from the first spike and Neji to save him from the second one. That isn't very quickly. When he exits SM against Sasuke instead of a spike coming to kill him it will be an arrow or Amaterasu killing him and this time he has no one to save him.
spiritual items that Itachi found himself




> Haha, wow. And what proof do you have that EMS in "FACT" makes  MS techniques, primarily Susano'o; incur less/no physical strain on the users Body?
> *Because to my knowledge*, your point is completely invalid. So we can only use evidence of pro-longed Susano'o usage from the past (VS Danzou).
> And 5 minutes is a long time in a fight. And it's a fact that Naruto worked on improving how long he can hold Sage Mode. But that doesn't matter anyway.
> *As he usually uses Sage Chakra up before running out of time. After which he can simply re-enter it.*


Your knowledge obviously isn't that great.

Sasuke using Amaterasu in large amounts, after using Susanoo in a few short bursts a couple times and still hasn't and never did show any visible strain during the Kabuto fight. 
spiritual items that Itachi found himself
spiritual items that Itachi found himself

When he uses his Sage chakra up he is still rendered exhausted and vulnerable so whether he runs out of time or uses it all up.He gets KO'd once SM runs out.




> That's some imagination of yours. Because so far. Sasuke's EMS has just been an unblindable MS, with just an aesthetically different L4 Susano'o.
> Nothing has suggested otherwise.


I was simply talking about the length he can use it.  Completely obvious based on the context of my sentence. Not to mention he now has Enton Magatama, Enton Blade, longer Susanoo usage, more Amaterasu usage, no MS strain so if you don't think that makes things completely different from when he had MS then you are kidding yourself.



> ]Yes the MS strain problem has been removed, like what happened when he was fighting Kakashi. And he didn't use L2/L3 Susano'o constantly, he was using it for bursts.
> But this issue, The Susano'o strain on the Physical Body, to our knowledge, still remains:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Lmao, nope. Not at all. Didn't pant once when using Susanoo against Kabuto even after using other MS techs besides Susanoo. Didn't show a hint of pain, exhaustion or strain when he put up lvl 4 Susanoo and used Enton to torch all those Zetsu.

Susanoo usage for a little bit and then one Amaterasu left him panting, that obviously doesn't happen anymore. 
Link removed

By the time he made it to Mei he couldn't even keep Ribcage up due to the pain his body was in due to its use and he was only using a V1 Susanoo and V2 Susanoo, the latter being used more than the former. Yet he didn't shown a tiny hint of strain VS Kabuto despite using multiple Amaterasus, Susanoo in short bursts multiple times. (V1 for a little bit. V2 once, V3 most of the time).

Madara was able to fight Hashirama from nighttime to daytime with his Perfect Susanoo and showed no signs of visible strain in the panels we saw him in and you think EMS users are subject to Susanoo strain? You have to be joking.


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## Sans (Mar 30, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> So what. By that logic. You think:
> SM Naruto = MS Sasuke
> CM1 Naruto = EMS Sasuke
> 
> ...



Bingo. **


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## Krippy (Mar 30, 2013)

make this current Sasuke versus the KCM Naruto that fought Itachi and Nagato and then you have something to argue about


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## TraderJoe (Mar 31, 2013)

Wasn't it said that MS Saskue= SM Naruto, I think EMS Saskue is a bit to much for sage mode Naruto. Susanoo plus genjutsu is to much.


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## Stermor (Mar 31, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> He can enter SM instantly but his time in SM is still limited, we've only seen him using it in short bursts not over long time periods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



no kyuubi recharged his reserves.. there are no signs of kyuubi chakra or anything..


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 31, 2013)

Stermor said:


> no kyuubi recharged his reserves.. there are no signs of kyuubi chakra or anything..



Kurama did the same thing with Kakashi and we all thought that he simply refilled his chakra reserves when in reality he put them over the max.


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## Raiken (Apr 1, 2013)

Krippy said:


> make this current Sasuke versus the KCM Naruto that fought Itachi and Nagato and then you have something to argue about


That's true enough. But I don't think the difference between SM Naruto and EMS Sasuke is that big.
Just like I don't think there's a massive difference between EMS Sasuke and CM1 Naruto.
Kind of like this:

EMS Sasuke => SM Naruto
CM1 Naruto => EMS Sasuke

Basically: CM1 Naruto > SM Naruto. And EMS Sasuke's somewhere in between that gap.

That's my opinion at least.

Although I guess SM Naruto. With Kyuubi Breaking Genjutsu's and Heightened Chakra Refils. Would Equal EMS Sasuke.


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## Raiken (Apr 1, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Kurama did the same thing with Kakashi and we all thought that he simply refilled his chakra reserves when in reality he put them over the max.


That is true.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 1, 2013)

Heightened chakra refills wouldn't be helpful to Naruto here, though. Sennin Mōdō requires a delicate balance of natural energy and chakra; having too much of one thing messes it up.



> Kyuubi Breaking Genjutsu's



For that, he'd have to know he was in a Genjutsu first. Sasuke can use very subtle illusions that even masters like Danzō can't tell apart from reality,


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## Punished Pathos (Apr 1, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Heightened chakra refills wouldn't be helpful to Naruto here, though. Sennin Mōdō requires a delicate balance of natural energy and chakra; having too much of one thing messes it up.
> 
> 
> 
> For that, he'd have to know he was in a Genjutsu first. *Sasuke can use very subtle illusions that even masters like Danzō can't tell apart from reality,*



Damn... You just gave Sasuke's genjutsu some needed props. 
Why didn't I think of that.
Sasuke's genjutsu may lack the power to control the perception of time in a Genjutsu but he is able to cast "silent" genjutsus.
 *takes notes*


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## Raiken (Apr 1, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Heightened chakra refills wouldn't be helpful to Naruto here, though. Sennin Mōdō requires a delicate balance of natural energy and chakra; having too much of one thing messes it up.


You're right that he probably couldn't combine the attributes of Heightened Base Chakra and Sage Mode. Since his Energies that make up his Stamina, wouldn't be heightened, which balance with Natural Energy. As it's just Heightened Chakra in his Chakra Network.


> For that, he'd have to know he was in a Genjutsu first. Sasuke can use very subtle illusions that even masters like Danzō can't tell apart from reality,


Yes, the subtlety of Sasuke's Genjutsu's can be useful. But it will not go unnoticed by Kurama. And it will be broken. And if Sasuke thinks he's in control of the situation, when in fact the Genjutsu failed. It could turn out worse for Sasuke. And there also has to be something to be taken advantage of that's really subtle. Danzo was constantly checking how many eyes were still open on his arm.
Also, since when was it stated or even suggested, that Danzo was a Genjutsu master?


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## Sans (Apr 1, 2013)

The Hachibi couldn't tell that Kirabi was in an illusion until Itachi explicitly informed them.


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## Punished Pathos (Apr 1, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> The Hachibi couldn't tell that Kirabi was in an illusion until Itachi explicitly informed them.





Sasuke auto wins


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## αce (Apr 1, 2013)

The biggest misconception that Naruto fans have is that he's completely immune to genjutsu from ever effecting him. No. He's immune after the Kyuubi manages to break him out. Clearly there is a lag time between when Naruto is caught in a genjutsu and when the Kyuubi realizes that Naruto is being affected by one. No matter how small the lag time may be, Sasuke has proven that even small weak genjutsu's over small periods of time can completely change the flow of a battle from a strategic standpoint.

Do not simply write off genjutsu because Naruto has the Kyuubi cooperating with him.


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## Krippy (Apr 1, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Also, since when was it stated or even suggested, that Danzo was a Genjutsu master?



having 2 of the most powerful genjutsu in the series at his disposal suggests this


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## αce (Apr 1, 2013)

Breaking a Mangekyou genjutsu casually suggests this as well.


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## Krippy (Apr 1, 2013)

I thought Sasuke ended the genjutsu both times


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## αce (Apr 1, 2013)

The one where he made Itachi appear.









"I commend you for actually trapping me in a genjutsu"
Seems like he's confident in his genjutsu skills as well.


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## Krippy (Apr 1, 2013)

hmm... I thought Sasuke ended the illusion once he became paralyzed but you're probably right


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## αce (Apr 1, 2013)

I don't know. That might be the case but then the comments about his genjutsu being inferior would seem slightly pointless.


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## Raiken (Apr 1, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> The Hachibi couldn't tell that Kirabi was in an illusion until Itachi explicitly informed them.


Yes, because that's exactly how it is.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Sure Sasuke's Genjutsu was noticable. But the Bijuu is directly tied to the Chakra System of the user, and would notice the change in it's flow.
The Hachibi simply didn't break it the immediate moment it was used, but after a very very short time.


αce said:


> The biggest misconception that Naruto fans have is that he's completely immune to genjutsu from ever effecting him. No. He's immune after the Kyuubi manages to break him out. Clearly there is a lag time between when Naruto is caught in a genjutsu and when the Kyuubi realizes that Naruto is being affected by one. No matter how small the lag time may be, Sasuke has proven that even small weak genjutsu's over small periods of time can completely change the flow of a battle from a strategic standpoint.
> 
> Do not simply write off genjutsu because Naruto has the Kyuubi cooperating with him.


Since when did I state that Genjutsu could "not" be used to Sasuke's advantage, no Naruto's not "immune" to it. But Kurama does eliminate most of the threat Genjutsu previously faced towards Naruto.
And ones that work over a period of time wouldn't work as intended. As with the small lag time, it would just get broken.

So I'm not writing it off, nor what "most Naruto fans" are *apparently* like.  It's just with Kurama's Cooperation, it's been extremely devalued.


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## Raiken (Apr 1, 2013)

Krippy said:


> having 2 of the most powerful genjutsu in the series at his disposal suggests this


Koto-Amatsukami is more hax than skill.
And what would the other be? I can't actually recall.

Breaking Sasuke's Genjutsu is fair enough.


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## Sans (Apr 1, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Yes, because that's exactly how it is.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Except that's not what happened with Itachi's subtle genjutsu; which is what I cited.

Itachi presumably applies his genjutsu during the panels in the upper right of the page, where Kishimoto focuses on both their eyes. 1 The fight continues for another page, until the genjutsu becomes obvious and Itachi warns Kirabi. 2 That is when the Hachibi breaks the genjutsu, not before.


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## Raiken (Apr 2, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Except that's not what happened with Itachi's subtle genjutsu; which is what I cited.
> 
> Itachi presumably applies his genjutsu during the panels in the upper right of the page, where Kishimoto focuses on both their eyes. 1 The fight continues for another page, until the genjutsu becomes obvious and Itachi warns Kirabi. 2 That is when the Hachibi breaks the genjutsu, not before.


B already noticed it before Itachi said anything. So even if Itachi did not say anything.
It would have been broke.
Just like against Sasuke: "Is this an Illusion?" *Straight after it was noticed, it was broke." And Sasuke, unwittingly. Almost got himself killed because he thought his Genjutsu worked.
Against Itachi, he noticed: "Genjutsu!" *Straight after it was broke."

And Naruto's clearly good at avoiding Genjutsu.
In his skirmish against Itachi, he avoided being caught in a Genjutsu. 
And he's been fighting Obito for ages and Madara for a while after to. Was not at any point caught in a Genjutsu.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 2, 2013)

> And Naruto's clearly good at avoiding Genjutsu.
> In his skirmish against Itachi, he avoided being caught in a Genjutsu.



No he didn't. Each time the two have fought, Itachi has caught him in a Genjutsu. The only time that hasn't happened was with Edo Tensei Itachi; when Itachi was specifically trying to go against Kabuto's orders. Yes, Kurama can break him out of any Genjutsu now. However, the problem is if he'd ever notice it. Your argument here is basically summed up as "yes he can because Bee noticed it" or that "Naruto has not been caught in Genjutsu despite fighting x and y"; Naruto is not Bee, has far less experience as a Jinchūriki, won't be faced with blatantly obvious illusions here, and in the case of the latter argument, neither Obito nor Madara tried to Genjutsu him in the first place, so your argument isn't very valid here.


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## Raiken (Apr 2, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> No he didn't. Each time the two have fought, Itachi has caught him in a Genjutsu.


Beggining of Shippuden Naruto =/= Current Naruto. My god, haha!


> The only time that hasn't happened was with Edo Tensei Itachi; when Itachi was specifically trying to go against Kabuto's orders.


There is no going against Kabuto's Orders when you're under his control.


> Yes, Kurama can break him out of any Genjutsu now. However, the problem is if he'd ever notice it. Your argument here is basically summed up as "yes he can because Bee noticed it"


If a Genjutsu is noticeable it's noticeable. And if it's not, then okay it's not.
If it's noticeable, it will be broke almost immediately.


> won't be faced with blatantly obvious illusions here,


Name something that could be done to Naruto that he wouldn't notice. That would in any way give Sasuke the advantage. And if Kurama even suspected something was up, he'd monitor Naruto's Chakra flow to see.


> or that "Naruto has not been caught in Genjutsu despite fighting x and y"
> 
> and in the case of the latter argument, neither Obito nor Madara tried to Genjutsu him in the first place, so your argument isn't very valid here.


Uchiha who are proficient in Genjutsu are always looking for an opportunity to get a Genjutsu in. To say they weren't trying at all is just naive.
If the opponent leaves themselves in a situation that has them open for Genjutsu being used on them. They're not going to be stupid enough not to take advantage of that. And end the fight quicker.
So either:
*They haven't had the opportunity to.*

*Or they haven't tried because they think it would be useless.*

Take your pick.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 2, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Beggining of Shippuden Naruto =/= Current Naruto. My god, haha!



Sure they're not the same, but has Naruto improved at all since he last got caught in a Genjutsu against Itachi? This was just before Itachi's fight with Sasuke, mind, and ever since then, the only training we've seen Naruto do is for Sennin Mōdō and the training to master the Kyūbi's powers. While the latter does indeed help with 'raw' Genjutsu breaking ability, it still does nothing to add to Naruto's actual skill with it, or his ability to discern illusion from reality. Naruto's 'skill' with Genjutsu here is purely illusory. 



> There is no going against Kabuto's Orders when you're under his control.



Each zombie is implanted with a general order to fight/kill somebody. The way they choose to do so is generally up to them unless Kabuto decides to interfere directly. This is obvious, as Itachi was trying to casually talk to Naruto before Kabuto took over. 

Resistance against Kabuto's control also happened with Zabuza and Haku.



> If a Genjutsu is noticeable it's noticeable. And if it's not, then okay it's not.
> If it's noticeable, it will be broke almost immediately.



Well, yes, but the point is that Sasuke probably won't use noticeable Genjutsu against a perfect Jinchūriki.



> Name something that could be done to Naruto that he wouldn't notice. That would in any way give Sasuke the advantage. And if Kurama even suspected something was up, he'd monitor Naruto's Chakra flow to see.



This. Sasuke can make very subtle differences to the environment and to the user with his Genjutsu. 



> Uchiha who are proficient in Genjutsu are always looking for an opportunity to get a Genjutsu in. To say they weren't trying at all is just naive.



That's argument is silly. Just because Uchihas are proficient in Genjutsu doesn't mean they're always going to look for an opportunity to get one in; the only one who actively does that is Itachi, and to a lesser extent, Sasuke. Obito has never used Genjutsu in battle, and Madara has always been too busy playing around with flashy jutsu to use subtleties like illusions.



> If the opponent leaves themselves in a situation that has them open for Genjutsu being used on them. They're not going to be stupid enough not to take advantage of that. And end the fight quicker.



Yes, but the battle was on far too big a scale at that moment for Genjutsu to even be considered an option there. Neither Obito nor Madara were interested in using it, and were relying on brute force instead.

In any case, regardless of the Genjutsu issue, it doesn't matter here. Naruto can't win against Sasuke here.


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## Sans (Apr 2, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> B already noticed it before Itachi said anything. So even if Itachi did not say anything.
> It would have been broke.
> Just like against Sasuke: "Is this an Illusion?" *Straight after it was noticed, it was broke." And Sasuke, unwittingly. Almost got himself killed because he thought his Genjutsu worked.
> Against Itachi, he noticed: "Genjutsu!" *Straight after it was broke."
> ...



I think you're missing the point I made.

There was an entire page of combat. Kirabi did not know it was false, as he continued to fight without pause. The Hachibi did not know it was false, as he did not break Kirabi out.

Only when it became obvious that there was a genjutsu in place, did anything happen.

Ergo, subtle genjutsu is effective, as Bijuu cannot distinguish them from reality as you stated.

Maybe you should look at the poll results, then at your avatar, and wonder if perhaps your position is being influenced by bias.


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## Krippy (Apr 2, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Koto-Amatsukami is more hax than skill.
> And what would the other be? I can't actually recall.
> 
> Breaking Sasuke's Genjutsu is fair enough.



Izanagi

and it is still debatable whether he broke it or Sasuke simply ended it because he became paralyzed

I'm still leaning toward the latter seeing how the illusion stopped immediately after the cursed seal was activated


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## Deshi Basara (Apr 2, 2013)

*First thing's first.....  Naruto ain't winning this.Not unless he's granted unlimited time in Sage Mode.

However, the argument going on right now is ridiculous.

Would someone please, PLEASE explain to me how Sasuke has any chance in hell to land a genjutsu on Naruto?Have we learned NOTHING from the Kabuto fight?

How is a perfect Sage with much,   
      MUCH greater sensing feats than Kabuto, and who is also a Kage Bunshin spammer, getting caught in Sasuke's genjutsu?



			
				Atlantic Storm said:
			
		


			Sure they're not the same, but has Naruto improved at all since he last got caught in a Genjutsu against Itachi? This was just before Itachi's fight with Sasuke, mind, and ever since then, the only training we've seen Naruto do is for Sennin Mōdō and the training to master the Kyūbi's powers. While the latter does indeed help with 'raw' Genjutsu breaking ability, it still does nothing to add to Naruto's actual skill with it, or his ability to discern illusion from reality. Naruto's 'skill' with Genjutsu here is purely illusory.
		
Click to expand...



There is so much wrong with bringing the Itachi incidents, I don't know where to begin..

And im pretty sure Naruto has improved in countering genjutsu, since i seem to remember Pa stating that Sage Mode improves EVERYTHING.








			In his skirmish against Itachi, he avoided being caught in a Genjutsu.
		
Click to expand...


No he didn't. Each time the two have fought, Itachi has caught him in a Genjutsu.
		
Click to expand...


It was explicitly said that Naruto did actually avoid Itachi's eyes, forcing Itachi to resort to tricks Naruto had no knowledge about (finger gen and the crow) to actually trap him in genjutsu.




			The only time that hasn't happened was with Edo Tensei Itachi; when Itachi was specifically trying to go against Kabuto's orders.
		
Click to expand...


That makes no sense considering Itachi used genjutsu on Bee like a minute later.




			That's argument is silly. Just because Uchihas are proficient in Genjutsu doesn't mean they're always going to look for an opportunity to get one in; the only one who actively does that is Itachi, and to a lesser extent, Sasuke. Obito has never used Genjutsu in battle, and Madara has always been too busy playing around with flashy jutsu to use subtleties like illusions.




Yes, but the battle was on far too big a scale at that moment for Genjutsu to even be considered an option there. Neither Obito nor Madara were interested in using it, and were relying on brute force instead.
		
Click to expand...


That sounds like the kinda of arguement people use when they have their mind made about something, and when things don't go as planned..  they rather call "plot" or "piss" rather than accept what the author is trying to tell us.

Fact of the matter is this.. NO, it's not that Obito and Madara conveniently won't resort to genjutsu if their opponent is stupid enough to look directly into their eyes, it's more simple than that.. Kishi just doesn't want to waste panels on Naruto saying how he will avoid eye contact (like he did against Itachi) when it should be god damn obvious after all this time.




			In any case, regardless of the Genjutsu issue, it doesn't matter here. Naruto can't win against Sasuke here.
		
Click to expand...


YES, Sasuke will win.But genjutsu isn't gonna be a factor AT ALL.*


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Sure they're not the same, but has Naruto improved at all since he last got caught in a Genjutsu against Itachi? This was just before Itachi's fight with Sasuke, mind, and ever since then, the only training we've seen Naruto do is for Sennin Mōdō and the training to master the Kyūbi's powers. While the latter does indeed help with 'raw' Genjutsu breaking ability, it still does nothing to add to Naruto's actual skill with it, or his ability to discern illusion from reality. Naruto's 'skill' with Genjutsu here is purely illusory.


genjutsu breaking ability logically should go by powerscale, as unlike other feats in the manga we only see genjutsu every once in a great while, and we have no way of quantifying how powerful one genjutsu is compared to another unless it's given no limits hype or plain stated to be stronger.




Atlantic Storm said:


> This. Sasuke can make very subtle differences to the environment and to the user with his Genjutsu.


that's if he catches naruto in one.  


Atlantic Storm said:


> That's argument is silly. Just because Uchihas are proficient in Genjutsu doesn't mean they're always going to look for an opportunity to get one in; the only one who actively does that is Itachi, and to a lesser extent, Sasuke. Obito has never used Genjutsu in battle, and Madara has always been too busy playing around with flashy jutsu to use subtleties like illusions.


that's not a silly argument at all.  From the beginning of part 2, whenever someone fights a sharingan user, it is assumed that they do not look at their eyes.  
The whole reason why itachi has so many genjutsu feats is because most of them are against people who know jack squat about the sharingan (deidara), how powerful its genjutsu is (Kakashi/orochimaru), want to get genjutsud (Sasuke), or don't care if they get genjutsu'd (Bee).

Madara went out of his way to grab Ei and force him into genjutsu, I have no idea how you can say that Madara would not have genjutsud ei if given the chance.  

We've consistently seen that sharingan genjutsu only lands on non-fodders when the genjutsu user forces them into it, or tricks them into it with some kind of distraction.





Atlantic Storm said:


> Yes, but the battle was on far too big a scale at that moment for Genjutsu to even be considered an option there. Neither Obito nor Madara were interested in using it, and were relying on brute force instead.


Obito wanted to win so badly he opted to nuke team Naruto off the face of the earth, if he or any sharingan users have the opportunity to genjutsu, they would do it unless they do it.  The only alternative reasons would be a lack of chakra or the genjutsu wouldn't do anything.


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## Bonly (Apr 2, 2013)

Naruto only has 5 minutes/2 or 3 FRS before he is back in base. While fighting in Sage Mode Naruto generally doesn't use many clones and im not sure if Naruto has anything to get past Sasuke's full Susanoo(due to lack of feats) and unless Naruto can take out Sasuke in those five minutes/ 2 or 3 FRS then Sasuke can end this with Ama.


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