# SM Jiraiya vs WA Masters



## Shazam (Jun 23, 2021)

Knowledge: Manga
IC
40m
Restrictions: 8th Gate 

In-Character mindset 

On the fence myself for this one. But I'll argue Jiraiya wins once he summons other toads to outnumber his opponents

Reactions: Funny 5


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## t0xeus (Jun 23, 2021)

Either ragdolls Jman if unrestricted, lol. They're both Itachi-level fighters by the end of WA, and we all know what Itachi did to Jman's superior ex-teammate.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5 | Winner 4 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Siskebabas (Jun 23, 2021)

What is location? With favorable location and full knowledge jman could win but on neutral grounds he get clapped

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 23, 2021)

7G Guy blitzes and one-shots with Hirudora

WA Kakashi one-shots with Kamui

They're easily above Jiraiya's paygrade by midway through the War Arc, not really much to discuss here. 

You'd have to cap Guy to six Gates only and restrict MS from Kakashi for this to be an actual discussion. As of now, Jiraiya gets folded worse than Asura Path did him

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jun 23, 2021)

Jiraiya overwhelms them with summons.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## GrandBenja (Jun 23, 2021)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Jiraiya overwhelms them with summons.


I'm not sure about that.
Orochimaru certainly would win this 1v2 the way you are suggesting. Jiraiya, however, isn't exactly the kind of ninja who'd use his toads like cannon fodder. I don't see him sacrificing a toad to tank a Kamui / Hirudora.

Good guys are too soft, aren't they?


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## Draghensalk (Jun 23, 2021)

SM Jiraiya stomps Gai but loses to Kakashi

Remember guys Kakashi is stronger than Kaguya with only his dogs that fodderized Zabuza


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2021)

Either Kakashi or Gai can solo Jiraiya with very little problems so putting them on the same team with almost no restrictions makes this an unholy stomp match which makes me think you don't like Jiraiya anymore!

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 23, 2021)

Masters low-mid diff. 

Either one can beat Jiraiya or vice versa high diff so he ain't winning against both. 

Jman could only have a decent shot at  winning if you gave him full knowledge and prep while Masters got none, even THEN kamui is too versatile and Jman could still get rekk.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Charmed (Jun 23, 2021)

Jman cant really win this, Shazam.
Your thoughts on this match?


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## cptwolf (Jun 23, 2021)



Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 7 | Useful 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 23, 2021)

Kakashi and Gai play rock, paper, scissors for who gets to solo with 7th gate or Kamui

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 23, 2021)

Either negs

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 23, 2021)

Jiraiya doesn’t know about Kamui (game over there) and thinks Kakashi is too weak to be a serious kage candidate (bad news bears, drops his win probability against Kakashi substantially)

If he knew close to nothing about Kakashi or his powerscale he won’t know much about Guy (which is really bad) or his 7G/MP/AT (Now he’s definitely toast as he literally walks into MP when he charges Guy, or BFR’d mince meat when he tries to attack from range and Guy decides to throw his fastest punch that blasts through his entire arsenal easier than the 1000x water wall Daikodan)

If he refused to summon against Pain who was Orochimaru and Itachi’s superior and wielding a Dojutsu above Itachi’s, as well as the “World Ender” he sure as hell isn’t implementing a “summon all toads and outnumber” tactic against two dudes he thinks are supports for a Kage at best

He’s really screwed here, give him full knowledge and the masters still stomp because he’s not on Guy’s speed plane, he can’t stop or avoid AT at any battle range and can’t avoid Kamui or HLM ambush Raikiri with someone as fast as Gated Guy pressuring as an alpha feint

Reactions: Winner 4


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## deltaniner (Jun 23, 2021)

Duo low-diffs.


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## Kisame (Jun 24, 2021)

Jiraiya wins since he starts in SM.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3 | Disagree 1


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## Azula (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> 7G Guy blitzes


Gai impales himself on spiky hair and dies




ATastyMuffin said:


> one-shots with Hirudora


Jiraiya turns himself paper thin and lets Hirudora pass over him.



and then returns to kill Gai.


ATastyMuffin said:


> WA Kakashi one-shots with Kamui


any LoS blockers like clones or fireball or smoke bomb defeats kamui.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 3 | Optimistic 3 | Lewd 2 | Dislike 1


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## ShadowBlade77 (Jun 24, 2021)

Either mid diffs, team stomps.

Deal with it, Wooly.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Charmed said:


> Jman cant really win this, Shazam.
> Your thoughts on this match?



Jiraiya has the advantage in CQC and can overwhelm the duo thanks to Ma+Pa and he has the advantage in the range game thanks to the swamp, Goemon, his hair, etc. which means he can likely overpower whatever the duo dishes out. It's basically Kamui or bust as usual for the masters since Jiraiya's too well rounded and a good match for them.

Also, Kakashi thought it was crazy that Jiraiya fought all six paths together, for all intents and purposes one-armed Jiraiya's off-panel scuffle against the six paths is a better speed (and overall performance) feat than Kakashis' since he could willingly escape death against all six paths while Kakashi died against two with Chouza and Choji around as support.

And much of this depends on whether you think Guy could solo the toads with Hirudora or not..Jiraiya has the numbers advantage to him so he'd most likely win this one..Kakashi cant do much besides waiting for the right moment for Kamui GG..Besides that his regular arsenal wouldnt make much of a difference

Reactions: Funny 2 | Useful 1 | Disagree 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

A good post from @Mithos is always nice  

_"The Masters can't win here. The stipulations are stacked against them.

First, it was heavily implied that Sage Mode put Jiraiya on a much higher level than Kakashi or Gai. Kakashi couldn't fathom that Jiraiya managed to take on all 6 Paths at once. Further, Gai was portrayed as someone who would get in Naruto's way against Pain. Indeed, Shikaku stated that once Naruto achieved Sage Mode like Jiraiya, Naruto was on 'another level' to the rest of the village, which would include the Masters.

In Sage Mode, Jiraiya can overpower both the Masters with his Sage Arts (e.g., Sage Art: Massive Rasengan, Toad Oil Deep Fryer). With his speed and tactics, he's apt to outmaneuver one of them fairly early on. For example, obscuring line of sight with a smoke bomb and then using Hair Needle Barrage. Without Shared Vision, it's likely that whomever is targeted wouldn't be able to dodge it.

Second, you gave Jiraiya too much back-up. He has four Boss Toads here. One of them, Gamakichi, can use Sage Arts that were effective against even Juubito; another, Gamabunta, can stalemate Shukaku's Air Cannonballs with his own Water Cannonballs, and can partner with Jiraiya to use Toad Oil Flamethrower; and the rest are massive and powerful enough to crush either of the Masters up close, and would require a lot of effort for Kakashi or Gai to dispatch.

Jiraiya is going to dominate this match."_

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1 | Lewd 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Kisame said:


> Jiraiya wins since he starts in SM.



I might need to add Gama Trio with him


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Also, in terms of Gai's portrayal, even when factoring in his Gates - 

"Gai was known for his Gates. Even someone like Yamato knew of _Afternoon Tiger_, and Gai's been known as the _Azure Beast_ - a title he gained from his aura in the 7th Gate. Despite this knowledge, Gai was not seen as a secret weapon against Pain, nor was he seen as big of a player in the War as the Five Kage. Gai is not the Kage slayer the BD thinks he is - not unless he opens the 8th Gate. 

The only unknown about Gai was the 8th Gate because it had never been used or seen before. Obviously, if Gai uses the 8th Gate he could kill Jiraiya in a suicide rush, but outside of that, he's inferior. Gai's portrayal as Kakashi's rival, and as someone inferior to the Sannin or SM Naruto,  includes everything up to the 7th Gate."

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 4


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2021)

While the masters are much closer to Jiriaya level as of the WA; they are still closer IMO to Base Jiriaya (Rather then Sage Jiriaya); and this being 2v1 doesn’t offer the big advantage that it normally would considering SM Jiriaya is actually 3 Fighters in one himself; and he can further augment his numbers with Bushin and additional Summons if necessary. So if Kakashi and Gai go up against SM Jiriaya, Jiriaya can attack one of them while Ma/Pa attack the other. Additionally Frog-Song is one of the best moves to deal with multiple enemies in the entire Manga; and Deep Fryer / Gama Yu Endan are also up there.

On the opposite end Kamui is not as dangerous to Jiriaya as I believe people think, since he and the Elder Toads have sensing (it’s also likely he has knowledge of it too); and will simply sense a Dojutsu is coming, and Jiriaya can use Bushin or Smokescreen to block it or simply throw an attack at Kakashi to ether disrupt him casting it; or get him to use Kamui to defend the attack instead. MP is easily overcome by Fire-Release Techs. AT should be blocked by Boss Toads, yes it’s powerful, but Boss Toads have shown the durability to tank Shukaku Bijuu level Air Bullets; and should be equally as durable (if not more in the case of Ken with his shield) then Manda who meat shield CO for Sasuke. It can also be defeated if AT would bust through SCOR with enough force left to do major damage to Jiriaya.

Im also not even going to entertain the idea that Gai blitz’s Jiriaya, when we had characters weaker/slower then Jiriaya keeping up to a certain extent (enough to react) with 8G Gai, like Gaara and near blind Kakashi. SM Jiriaya should have enough time to cast one seal for a Summon or use sealess SCOR

The fight should be a good one, but I see Jiriaya edging it more often then not through his usage of AoE Techs to eventually win

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Also, in terms of Gai's portrayal, even when factoring in his Gates -
> 
> "Gai was known for his Gates. Even someone like Yamato knew of _Afternoon Tiger_, and Gai's been known as the _Azure Beast_ - a title he gained from his aura in the 7th Gate. Despite this knowledge, Gai was not seen as a secret weapon against Pain, nor was he seen as big of a player in the War as the Five Kage. Gai is not the Kage slayer the BD thinks he is - not unless he opens the 8th Gate.
> 
> The only unknown about Gai was the 8th Gate because it had never been used or seen before. Obviously, if Gai uses the 8th Gate he could kill Jiraiya in a suicide rush, but outside of that, he's inferior. Gai's portrayal as Kakashi's rival, and as someone inferior to the Sannin or SM Naruto,  includes everything up to the 7th Gate."


Yamato worked with them before and he is part of their generation

Guy was seen by Minato and Kakashi as someone who had a chance to harm 3E Six Paths Senjutsu Juubi Jin Madara, portrayal doesn’t get much better than that imo

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Guy was seen by Minato and Kakashi as someone who had a chance to harm 3E Six Paths Senjutsu Juubi Jin Madara,



If I wasn't mistakened, I'd think you're implying 7th Gate Gai is God Tier? 

But that can't be, you're obviously trolling

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Genuinely don't know what goes through these people's heads when they see SM Minato blatantly cuck to 7G Guy in performance then think a much worse version of him is somehow beating him in a battle

Like what is going on between the ears bruh

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> If I wasn't mistakened, I'd think you're implying 7th Gate Gai is God Tier?
> 
> But that can't be, you're obviously trolling


No, Minato and Kakashi thought he could harm him

A far cry from not being “a secret weapon against Pain (ironically being one against the far superior Judara)” or “a big player in the war as the five kage (ironically being a big player in the hopes of harming a juiced up version of Madara who stomped Gokage prior as a garbage version of himself in comparison)”

I don’t have to argue anything, it’s portrayal, it exists regardless of an argument

Minato and Kakashi thought Guy had a chance to compete with and harm Judara, they let him go alone at him, this is all-manga portrayal from two Hokage

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Genuinely don't know what goes through these people's heads when they see SM Minato blatantly cuck to 7G Guy in performance then think a much worse version of him is somehow beating him in a battle
> 
> Like what is going on between the ears bruh


Your definition of "performance" is wack then. 

Madara easily blocked Gai's fastest punch and would have killed him if not for lee's rescue.

Just because Madara did not defeat him immediately and allowed him to display his taijutsu does not mean 7G is better than a Hirashin blitz, otherwise Mei is better than Minato and Gai because she lasted far longer than both combined.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Azula said:


> Your definition of "performance" is wack then.
> 
> Madara easily blocked Gai's fastest punch and would have killed him if not for lee's rescue.
> 
> Just because Madara did not defeat him immediately and allowed him to display his taijutsu does not mean 7G is better than a Hirashin blitz,


???

I'm not saying 7G Guy did _well_ against Mads, I'm saying he did way better than SM Minato did.

Minato couldn't last a second against Madara and got slapped to the dirt with two other Kage-level shinobi; Guy at least had a brief exchange and pushed the guy back before conceding


Azula said:


> otherwise Mei is better than Minato and Gai because she lasted far longer than both combined.


Mei fought non-Jūbi Madara with four other Kage, how the hell is that a comparison

You know this man, you don't have to just say things

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, Minato and Kakashi thought he could harm him
> 
> A far cry from not being “a secret weapon against Pain (ironically being one against the far superior Judara)” or “a big player in the war as the five kage (ironically being a big player in the hopes of harming a juiced up version of Madara who stomped Gokage prior as a garbage version of himself in comparison)”
> 
> ...



Do you understand?

For what you're implying to work, you'd have to believe 7G Gai > Founders by merit of the claim


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## Azula (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm not saying 7G Guy did _well_ against Mads, I'm saying he did way better than SM Minato did.





ATastyMuffin said:


> Guy at least had a brief exchange and pushed the guy back before conceding


"brief exchange" not owing to his merits but because of Madara allowing it to see his taijutsu.

Here is Sakura "successfully" landing a hit on Madara on first try so I guess she did better than Gai and Madara.



If Madara is stronger than someone then how long a fight lasts is also dependant on his (Madara's) mindset.

So we are back to 7G Gai being less helpful than SM Naruto because he was told to stay out of Pain fight. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> Mei fought non-Jūbi Madara with four Kage, how the hell is that a comparison
> 
> You know this man, you don't have to just say things


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> ???
> 
> I'm not saying 7G Guy did _well_ against Mads, I'm saying he did way better than SM Minato did.
> 
> ...


Except he didn’t; when he threw his Jutsu it was blocked just like Minato’s Rasengan; and then Gai was laid out about to die; as oppose to Minato who could actually continue fighting despite loosing his arm. Loosing arm is not nearly as bad as dying dude

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Azula said:


> "brief exchange" not owing to his merits but because of Madara allowing it to see his taijutsu.


Nope

You said it yourself

Madara had every intent of killing him; that's why he threw the Truthseeker at Guy after Hirudora was launched and Lee had to save him

If Guy didn't at least force Madara to defend himself wouldn't have elicited that reaction of surprise with the first attack


Azula said:


> Here is Sakura "successfully" landing a hit on Madara on first try so I guess she did better than Gai and Madara.


Two things

1) That hit was blocked by Limbo, it never landed
2) Did you miss Sakura getting stabbed by a TSB rod literally in the previous page?

How tf did she do better than Guy OR Minato?


Azula said:


> If Madara is stronger than someone then how long a fight lasts is also dependant on his (Madara's) mindset.


Madara's mindset against both Minato and Guy are the same - dicking around

Except one did far better


Azula said:


> So we are back to 7G Gai being less helpful than SM Naruto because he was told to stay out of Pain fight.


We don't even know if Guy had 7G at the time of the Pain Arc

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 24, 2021)

Either master solo as shown by feats

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 24, 2021)

Jiriaya has the advantage in cqc 
And the reeeeh clan are surprised they get teased . Such words were actually written down 
 
Cqc advantage against by far the best taijutsu user shown in the manga is an intensely stupid thing to say

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 5 | Kage 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

JMan didn't even have the CQC advantage against Asura Path

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 3


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> JMan didn't even have the CQC advantage against Asura Path



You're right, he was at a disadvantage with guard down and back turnt. Good thing that doesn't apply here unless they can fake being dead

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> You're right, he was at a disadvantage with guard down and back turnt. Good thing that doesn't apply here unless they can fake being dead


So if Kakashi warps to the Kamui world then warps back on top of Jiraiya, what happens?

Since Jiraiya can't fight against blindsides

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> So if Kakashi warps to the Kamui world then warps back on top of Jiraiya, what happens?
> 
> Since Jiraiya can't fight against blindsides



Well, his guard isn't down just because Kakashi exists the battlefield. 

Kakashi would have to pull a naraka path for this to work or have Izanagi


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Well, his guard isn't down just because Kakashi exists the battlefield.
> 
> Kakashi would have to pull a naraka path for this to work or have Izanagi


True they need blind sides to win
Thanks to Jiriaya unparalleled cqc advantage 
Shown to us in the manga 

said advantage allowed him to get blocked by a blind path and have his fastest possible attack in SM blocked by another 

all of this certainly points to his superiority in cqc however Gai and Kakashi


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Well, his guard isn't down just because Kakashi exists the battlefield.
> 
> Kakashi would have to pull a naraka path for this to work or have Izanagi


Really? That's so weird, his guard being up didn't stop him and Fukasaku - who is apparently a "sensor" - from getting blindsided like this



Oh, and Mr. "has the CQC advantage against 7G Guy" couldn't even stop himself from getting ganked by *Animal Path* so what happens when Kakashi and Guy get a hold of him?

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> True they need blind sides to win
> Thanks to Jiriaya unparalleled cqc advantage
> Shown to us in the manga
> 
> ...



Yes. Shared vision that Jiraiya at the time of those events did not know about worked well


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## Charmed (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> "Gai was known for his Gates. Even someone like Yamato knew of _Afternoon Tiger_, and Gai's been known as the _Azure Beast_ - a title he gained from his aura in the 7th Gate. Despite this knowledge, Gai was not seen as a secret weapon against Pain, nor was he seen as big of a player in the War as the Five Kage. Gai is not the Kage slayer the BD thinks he is - not unless he opens the 8th Gate


Agreed.
Tbf, tho, his arsenal is hardcountered by the 6PoP (especially Deva Path) and Edo regen.
He wouldbt be useful against Madara because even if he uses the 7G right off the bat, he wouldnt be able to inflict serious damage o Edo Mads, and, he would need constant healing from Tsunade.
The Raikage was a much better asset in that fight, because he can mantain his top speed for long periods of time and he's far more durable than Gai.
So yeah, Gai would be a hindrance.




Shazam said:


> The only unknown about Gai was the 8th Gate because it had never been used or seen before. Obviously, if Gai uses the 8th Gate he could kill Jiraiya in a suicide rush, but outside of that, he's inferior. Gai's portrayal as Kakashi's rival, and as someone inferior to the Sannin


But both War Kakashi and 7G are still Mid Kage right?




Shazam said:


> Also, Kakashi thought it was crazy that Jiraiya fought all six paths together, for all intents and purposes one-armed Jiraiya's off-panel scuffle against the six paths is a better speed (and overall performance) feat than Kakashis' since he could willingly escape death against all six paths while Kakashi died against two with Chouza and Choji around as support.


Ok, but what about his War feats?



Shazam said:


> Jiraiya has the advantage in CQC a


Initially yes because i believe SM Jman's stats are considerably higher than Kakashi and Base Gai's.
The problem is the starting distance being 40 meters, makes it impossible for Jman to blitz either one of em.
Furthermore, Kakashi, tho slower than Jman, should be able to dodge any incoming blitz attmepts thanks to the sharingan.

Gai should have plenty of time to activate the 6th Gate at least.





Shazam said:


> can overwhelm the duo thanks to Ma+Pa a


How can you be so sure they can keep up with 6G Gai for example?


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Really? That's so weird, his guard being up didn't stop him and Fukasaku - who is apparently a "sensor" - from getting blindsided like this
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and Mr. "has the CQC advantage against 7G Guy" couldn't even stop himself from getting ganked by *Animal Path* so what happens when Kakashi and Guy get a hold of him?





ATastyMuffin said:


> Really? That's so weird, his guard being up didn't stop him and Fukasaku - who is apparently a "sensor" - from getting blindsided like this
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and Mr. "has the CQC advantage against 7G Guy" couldn't even stop himself from getting ganked by *Animal Path* so what happens when Kakashi and Guy get a hold of him?



Sure. The difference being that rather than Jiraiya being outnumbered, working through his thoughts to figure out what's going on, and bleeding out in the process...

He will have the Masters outnumbered 3 to 1. He will have nothing to figure out. And he won't be in a starting position of have 1 arm. 

Not to mention we need to give Jiraiya credit for still killing 1 path while all 6 were there and with only one arm


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Sure. The difference being that rather than Jiraiya being outnumbered, working through his thoughts to figure out what's going on, and bleeding out in the process...


Why does that matter? Fukasaku wasn't injured at all and he didn't anticipate Asura Path

I thought you said they were sensors? What happened to all that? Is Fukasaku not a sensor now? Why didn't he pick up on the blitz?

Does that mean if someone is relative to Asura Path in speed, they can completely blitz Fukasaku's sensing reactions now?


Shazam said:


> He will have the Masters outnumbered 3 to 1. He will have nothing to figure out. And he won't be in a starting position of have 1 arm.
> 
> Not to mention we need to give Jiraiya credit for still killing 1 path while all 6 were there and with only one arm


So Animal Path without summons and basic taijutsu can deal severe injuries to SM Jiraiya even with the Elder Sages being uninjured and able to intercept/defend against attacks

In other words, if someone relative to Animal Path in taijutsu attacks Jiraiya, the Elder Sages are useless and won't protect him in time

Glad to see you concede that

Jiraiya even said HIMSELF that he dragged Animal Path into his barrier and still got stabbed, so the latter was alone and literally had no help from the other Paths

That's so weird, even fodder like Ibiki and ANBU randoms were keeping up with Animal Path



So Ibiki + ANBU ~ Animal Path >= SM Jiraiya > Elder Sages' reactions


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Yes. Shared vision that Jiraiya at the time of those events did not know about worked well


And yet killer bee mentioned yugito getting swifter primarily because of sharingan 
Something Kakashi has 

though it’s cute you dodge the main issue which is gai and kakahsi hilariously have better speed feats than paths Jiraiya failed to blitz


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> And yet killer bee mentioned yugito getting swifter primarily because of sharingan
> Something Kakashi has
> 
> though it’s cute you dodge the main issue which is gai and kakahsi hilariously have better speed feats than paths Jiraiya failed to blitz



Logic says the paths + shared vision should replicate what Nagato himself was shown to do in the WA. And he could react to Kcm Naruto


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> though it’s cute you dodge the main issue which is gai and kakahsi hilariously have better speed feats than paths Jiraiya failed to blitz


Not even just failed to blitz

Jiraiya got CLAPPED by those Paths

See Animal and Asura


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why does that matter? Fukasaku wasn't injured at all and he didn't anticipate Asura Path
> 
> I thought you said they were sensors? What happened to all that? Is Fukasaku not a sensor now? Why didn't he pick up on the blitz?
> 
> ...



Sages are sensors. The constant repetitive argument of Asura Path makes no difference. Jiraiya isn't starting with this back turned and guard down. 

We see Jiraiya earlier when he wasn't injured and was confronting Animal Path who was spamming summons, deal with him in base. So that argument is irrelevant 

Jiraiya was able to use his Toad Gourd Prison on him admist the other Paths and their shared vision being present at the time


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Not even just failed to blitz
> 
> Jiraiya got CLAPPED by those Paths
> 
> See Animal and Asura



We know this is a bad attempt to downplay Jiraiya when we have Obito telling us Pain had his hands full and Nagato stating Jiraiya could have beaten his real self who is comparable to his WA self in white hair

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Sages are sensors.


So why didn't Fukasaku react to him?

Are the Elder Sages useless?

Are their reactions Chūnin-level?

Either SM Jiraiya and co. aren't sensors or Asura Path is faster than they can perceive

It's one or the other bucko




Shazam said:


> We see Jiraiya earlier when he wasn't injured and was confronting Animal Path who was spamming summons, deal with him in base. So that argument is irrelevant


All I saw was Jiraiya running from Animal Path and deciding he needed SM to fight him




Shazam said:


> Jiraiya was able to use his Toad Gourd Prison on him admist the other Paths and their shared vision being present at the time


Finish your sentence bud

"-at the time...then Animal Path stabbed him without SM Jiraiya being able to react or defend"

Animal Path >= SM Jiraiya > Elder Sages' reactions


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## JayK (Jun 24, 2021)

Bonly said:


> Either Kakashi or Gai can solo Jiraiya with very little problems so putting them on the same team with almost no restrictions makes this an unholy stomp match which makes me think you don't like Jiraiya anymore!


/thread

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## JayK (Jun 24, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Jiriaya has the advantage in cqc
> And the reeeeh clan are surprised they get teased . Such words were actually written down





ATastyMuffin said:


> JMan didn't even have the CQC advantage against Asura Path


But Jman super stronk and fast!

he reaches Preta before his sandal falls to the ground which is like subsonic in speed and got his punch blocked by the physically weakest path!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> So why didn't Fukasaku react to him?
> 
> Are the Elder Sages useless?
> 
> ...



The databook will tell you the Sages are sensors. 

Jiraiya went Sage Mode at the prospect of facing the Rinnegan. 

Yes, he landed an unseen attack while Jiraiya was processing what was Pain's secret and with one arm. While earlier his CqC speed blasted a kick in the paths face sending him Rolling for 20 meters.

Anything else?


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Do you understand?
> 
> For what you're implying to work, you'd have to believe 7G Gai > Founders by merit of the claim


No, I’m just stating what occurred

Portrayal usually falls short so it’s no surprise Guy’s wouldn’t match up with his feats or true powerscale anyway

But strictly in portrayal Guy is not what Narutowiki Mithosbot implied, his portrayal is far above that level


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Genuinely don't know what goes through these people's heads when they see SM Minato blatantly cuck to 7G Guy in performance then think a much worse version of him is somehow beating him in a battle
> 
> Like what is going on between the ears bruh



Woah are you serious? 

We all know that Madara took Minato super seriously and that's why he casually stomped him in a sec, while instead he decided to play around with Gai and not try to kill him a *single time *because he just wanted to see the 8th Gate and thus did not make any attempts to injure or Kill Gai previously. 

What makes you think that a Taijutsu master with a power up superior to SM could last longer than Minato in a CQC exchange?! 

How do you not know this???

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, I’m just stating what occurred
> 
> Portrayal usually falls short so it’s no surprise Guy’s wouldn’t match up with his feats or true powerscale anyway



Portrayal may fall short of readers expectations, but that doesn't mean it goes against what the author intends. 

Again. For any of what you said to matter would, it would have to follow that Gai is above the Founders and easily so.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Portrayal may fall short of readers expectations, but that doesn't mean it goes against what the author intends.
> 
> Again. For any of what you said to matter would, it would have to follow that Gai is above the Founders and easily so.


No it wouldn’t. portrayal is just what peers think about someone, it’s not based on any concrete truth

We learned that with Guy, two hokage thought he was strong enough to probe and maybe hurt someone above Jubito, that was wrong, way wrong, but that was his portrayal


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## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

You know it's kinda sad when the thread maker starts arguing in his own vs thread when he doesn't get the answers he wishes for and is deeply bothered by that .

Kakashi has feats of going toe to toe with V2 Jins that were pressuring KCM 1 Naruto who is faster than SM Naruto who blitzed the Asura Path that Jiraiya couldn't react to on at least 2 occasions .

On top of that , he matched WA Obito in CQC who physically reacted to KCM 2 Naruto who would outright molest Jiraiya , SM or not .

While his Kamui was fast enough to trick Obito into thinking he destroyed a KCM2 clone when in fact said clone was warped . No feats on Jiraiya's part to suggest he can react to a Kamui portal .

Guy also went toe to toe with those V2 Jins and was relative to Kakashi in the 6th Gate , and the 7th Gate is MUCH faster .

Not only his Hirudora literally blitzed ET Madara who reacted to a KCM 2 flicker but the explosion is large enough to cover an island , so even if Jman reacts , he is not dodging that .

Portrayal alone puts them above Jiraiya , and either can stomp diff him .

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> So why didn't Fukasaku react to him?
> 
> Are the Elder Sages useless?
> 
> ...



Animal Path casually blocking SM Jmans blindside punch doesn't bode well for Jman either. 

If he was a physical monster he would have gone right through him. 

I wouldn't even put him decisively above Base Gai's Taijutsu tbh.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> The databook will tell you the Sages are sensors.
> 
> Jiraiya went Sage Mode at the prospect of facing the Rinnegan.
> 
> Yes, he landed an unseen attack while Jiraiya was processing what was Pain's secret and with one arm.


Why do you keep talking about Jiraiya?

I'm talking about Fukasaku

You said he's a sensor right? So why did he let Asura crush his buddy's throat? Was he too slow? Does he hate Jiraiya? Which is it?


Shazam said:


> While earlier his CqC speed blasted a kick in the paths face sending him Rolling for 20 meters.
> 
> Anything else?


This guy keeps dodging the fact that Jiraiya got shit-diffed by a mid-tier Path in CQC 

Tough



Even look at the Elder Sages' faces, they're all like "wtf you doing getting your ass handed to you by fodder"




ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> You know it's kinda sad when the thread maker starts arguing in his own vs thread when he doesn't get the answers he wishes for and is deeply bothered by that .


Shazam and getting obliterated in his own threads

A timeless duo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Azula (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Two things
> 
> 1) That hit was blocked by Limbo, it never landed



Minato failed to land a hit and Madara dodged several of Gai's attacks so looking at "performance" Sakura "outshined" both of them.

Maybe Sakura is so fast Madara had no choice but to block her attack with Limbo, a technique stronger than what he had to use against Minato and Gai.  



ATastyMuffin said:


> 2) Did you miss Sakura getting stabbed by a TSB rod literally in the previous page?



Oh so now we are looking at the full fight but Gai's initial attacks (that are dodged easily) are somehow used to hype him, why the double standards?


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## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why do you keep talking about Jiraiya?
> 
> I'm talking about Fukasaku
> 
> ...


He should just accept the masters scale above Jiraiya instead of being dishonest and making threads out of insecurity .

Or at least come up with better arguments to justify his beliefs .

But unfortunately , this is Juicy G's limit .


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Azula said:


> Minato failed to land a hit and Madara dodged several of Gai's attacks so looking at "performance" Sakura "outshined" both of them.


Sakura didn't land a hit

It was blocked just as Madara blocked Guy's hits here



See the impact bubbles with the "THK THK" SFX? That's Madara blocking his hits just like he did Sakura


Azula said:


> Maybe Sakura is so fast Madara had no choice but to block her attack with Limbo, a technique stronger than what he had to use against Minato and Gai.


I mean that's possible

I actually rate WA Sakura higher than most here give credit her for

It actually lines up with her feat being able to intercept Kaguya

But most here aren't ready for that discussion   


Azula said:


> Oh so now we are looking at the full fight but Gai's initial attacks (that are dodged easily) are somehow used to hype him, why the double standards?


I hype them relative to Minato

Again, Guy got CLAPPED by Madara, I've been saying this

He just did way better than Minato with literally the same approach of attack

Minato couldn't even get a single attack in before getting fodderized

Hence, 7G Guy is > SM Minato and >>>> SM Jiraiya

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Why do you keep talking about Jiraiya?
> 
> I'm talking about Fukasaku
> 
> ...



Yes, Fukasaku is a Sage. Him and Shima are indeed sensors due to being Sages. 

I fail to see how your argument applies to this thread battle. At no moment will Jiraiya be sitting down, with one arm and processing Pain's secret for an opening like this to occur. Nor will he ever be outnumbered in this fight 

Anything else?


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Yes, Fukasaku is a Sage. Him and Shima are indeed sensors due to being Sages.
> 
> I fail to see how your argument applies to this thread battle. At no moment will Jiraiya be sitting down, with one arm and processing Pain's secret for an opening like this to occur. Nor will he ever be outnumbered in this fight
> 
> Anything else?


Kamui GG?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Yes, Fukasaku is a Sage. Him and Shima are indeed sensors due to being Sages.


So Asura blitzed Fukasaku's sensing range?

Does that mean Kakashi, who in the PA, got the upper hand against Asura, can blitz Fukasaku before he can be sensed?



Is that what you're saying?




Shazam said:


> I fail to see how your argument applies to this thread battle. At no moment will Jiraiya being sitting down, with one arm and processing Pain's secret for an opening like this to occur. Nor will he ever be outnumbered in this fight


Because JMan and Elder Sages can't keep up with Ibiki-tier fighters

We literally see this






So either Kakashi or base Guy can replicate Animal Path's feat and stab JMan without him being able to react

PA Kakashi/base Guy > Asura Path > Animal Path ~ Ibiki/ANBU >= SM Jiraiya's reactions > Elder Sages
reactions/sensing


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> So Asura blitzed Fukasaku's sensing range?
> 
> Does that mean Kakashi, who in the PA, got the upper hand against Asura, can blitz Fukasaku before he can be sensed?
> 
> ...



Kakashi never was in the position of having his back turned and guard down when approached by Asura and the other Paths. 

Again, not sure how this applies to the thread.

And clearly Jiraiya can, as he literally did earlier in the fight and more than just keep up, he blitzes one in CqC. So we know this is just more of your blatant downplay on display.

Anything else?


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi never was in the position of having his back turned and guard down when approached by Asura and the other Paths.
> 
> Again, not sure how this applies to the thread.
> 
> ...


Kamui GG?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi never was in the position of having his back turned and guard down when approached by Asura and the other Paths.


Yet Kakashi very clearly outspeeds Asura in that exchange

So Kakashi >= Asura in speed

And you said Fukasaku is a Sage, so he must have had his sensing on when Asura approached but STILL couldn't do shit

So Kakashi >>> Fukasaku's reactions?


Shazam said:


> And clearly Jiraiya can, as he literally did earlier in the fight and more than just keep up, he blitzes one in CqC. So we know this is just more of your blatant downplay on display.


Yet he got shit-diffed by Animal Path

Your body pillow favorite has worse stats than Hidan


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Yet Kakashi very clearly outspeeds Asura in that exchange
> 
> So Kakashi >= Asura in speed
> 
> ...



Yes, Kakashi did well while facing Asura Path with his guard up. Jiraiya would do the same.

Again. Guard was down for all three of the Sages after defeating the 3 paths. As stated in the manga.

The same Animal Path that couldn't kill Jiraiya while he was in base and was CqC blitzed while in SM.

Anything else?


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## t0xeus (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Yes, he landed an *unseen* attack


Wow, so Jman's gold fish-like memory doesn't even allow him to remember dropping Animal Path into the acid lake few seconds before Animal Path attacks him from there? 


Shazam said:


> *while Jiraiya was processing what was Pain's secret*


Wait, excuse me? 

So Jiraiya thinking about something slows his reactions to the point where Animal Path can blitz him?

Is Jman a cretin now or what? Why can't he just think while not losing focus on his battle like literally any other character does? 


Shazam said:


> and with *one arm*.


This is where you stepped over the 'reaching' boundaries and went straight into just the 'excuses' territory.

Having one arm literally doesn't hinder your ability to react in any shape or form, no matter how much jizz comes out of you when discussing Jman.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Yes, Kakashi did well while facing Asura Path with his guard up. Jiraiya would do the same.
> 
> Again. Guard was down for all three of the Sages after defeating the 3 paths. As stated in the manga.
> 
> ...


Kamui


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jun 24, 2021)

Needs to just be some super thread for these tired arguments so they stop leaking in to all the others.

"but the masters PORTRAYAL"

"but ASURA PATH"

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Wow, so Jman's gold fish-like memory doesn't even allow him to remember dropping Animal Path into the acid lake few seconds before Animal Path attacks him from there?
> 
> Wait, excuse me?
> 
> ...



How does any of this apply here? At what point will Jiraiya be outnumbered, facing shared vision, be operating with one arm or have his guard down?

You guys are pretty desperate


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> How does any of this apply here? At what point will Jiraiya be outnumbered, facing shared vision, be operating with one arm or have his guard down?
> 
> You guys are pretty desperate


Authority of the Gods? (> Kotoamatsukami, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Izanami, Izanagi, Susano, Totsuka, Yamata).

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Sometimes I wonder how this all started

How did ol Shazzy get to this point

Furiously defending old men on an anime forum

And failing harder than he does his day job

Him and Jiraiya are of similar age so maybe that explains it, you defend your own

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## t0xeus (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> How does any of this apply here? At what point will Jiraiya be outnumbered, facing shared vision, be operating with one arm or have his guard down?
> 
> You guys are pretty desperate


I mean going off your analysis of why Animal Path stabbed SM Jman, all it takes for Masters to win here is to moderately injure Jman and to make him think about something, and as a result of that Jman's reflexes will drop to the point where he's a blitz material, so I'd say it's a pretty important factor here.


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Sometimes I wonder how this all started
> 
> How did ol Shazzy get to this point
> 
> ...



Ok concession accepted 

Next


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> I mean going off your analysis of why Animal Path stabbed SM Jman, all it takes for Masters to win here is to moderately injure Jman and to make him think about something, and as a result of that Jman's reflexes will drop to the point where he's a blitz material, so I'd say it's a pretty important factor here.



Well, it would take them having all of what Pain had.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Ok concession accepted
> 
> Next


Is Authority of the Gods restricted?


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## blk (Jun 24, 2021)

Kakashi 's smarts&hax with Gai's raw power are a bit too much for Sage Jman.

He is gonna get feinted & electrocuted or Kamui'd eventually.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Logic says the paths + shared vision should replicate what Nagato himself was shown to do in the WA. And he could react to Kcm Naruto


Which got nothing to do with reacting to gai 
As we saw KCM naruto couldn’t do shit speed wise or anything wise against juubito


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Jiraiya simply has too much AoE and numbers with summons for these two to handle. 

He will exhaust Gai and overwhelm Kakashi

Reactions: Funny 5


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 24, 2021)

Shame this thread should have a poll
So we can all laugh

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Which got nothing to do with reacting to gai
> As we saw KCM naruto couldn’t do shit speed wise or anything wise against juubito



Gai's speed is severely overplayed and overrated. The only arguments made for Gai has to do with upper God Tiers which he has no business being in discussions with

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya simply has too much AoE and numbers with summons for these two to handle.
> 
> He will exhaust Gai and overwhelm Kakashi


This is what desperation and cope looks like in 2 sentences .


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> This is what desperation and cope looks like in 2 sentences .



No, it's called facts and peeps are made about it.


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## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> No, it's called facts and peeps are made about it.


Not sure who is mad about it given that you made this thread with the sheer purpose of hoping that people will give answers that would satisfy your insecurities , and when that didn't happen you desperately started trying to " debunk " every response , failling in every possible way , and keeping this circus up because of your frustrations with the result .


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## JayK (Jun 24, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> You know it's kinda sad when the thread maker starts arguing in his own vs thread when he doesn't get the answers he wishes for and is deeply bothered by that .


/thread

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Not sure who is mad about it given that you made this thread with the sheer purpose of hoping that people will give answers that would satisfy your insecurities , and when that didn't happen you desperately started tryinf " debunk " every response , failling in every possible way , and keeping this circus up because of your frustrations with the result .



I stated at the beginning I was on the fence


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Shame this thread should have a poll
> So we can all laugh


The reason why he doesn't is because he knows it'll be like 30-7 pro Masters

7 being his rugrats Sanninband

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> I stated at the beginning I was on the fence


Perhaps you should bring Jiraiya's Urashiki feats in this thread as a last resort .

Maybe you'll have a convincing case with them seeing as you failed to make one already .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JayK (Jun 24, 2021)

It's like the Sannin fandom has never heard of Death of the Author with all their portrayal garbage which holds close to no ground to begin with.

Their portrayal claims are essentially just their deep believe without much evidence actually pointing towards it .Also called fanfic or headcanon in short.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 24, 2021)

JayK said:


> It's like the Sannin fandom has never heard of Death of the Author with all their portrayal garbage which holds close to no ground to begin with.
> 
> Their portrayal claims are essentially just their deep believe without much evidence actually pointing towards it .Also called fanfic or headcanon in short.


You know DOTA?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## JayK (Jun 24, 2021)

Code said:


> You know DOTA?


Ofc

and pretty much even the weakest of the cast can solo the Sannin with actual feats instead of ignoring DOTA

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> I stated at the beginning I was on the fence

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Perhaps you should bring Jiraiya's Urashiki feats in this thread as a last resort .
> 
> Maybe you'll have a convincing case with them seeing as you failed to make one already .



I would only do that as a rebuttal to those who are serious about Gai's speed being God Tier


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The reason why he doesn't is because he knows it'll be like 30-7 pro Masters
> 
> 7 being his rugrats Sanninband



I dont add polls because it gives voice to all the dupes being used by these exact members


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Do you need something?


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## Speedyamell (Jun 24, 2021)

Jiraiya overwhelms them more times than not

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> I dont add polls because it gives voice to all the dupes being used by these exact members


----------



## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Do you need something?


----------



## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> I dont add polls because it gives voice to all the dupes being used by these exact members


Says the dupe itself


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Says the dupe itself



You want to debate or complain about Master dupes not being able to vote?


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## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> You want to debate or complain about Master dupes not being able to vote?


Prove they are dupes in the first place

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Impulse (Jun 24, 2021)

This match up needs another or maybe all 3 Sannin to be fair as right now the masters stomp Jiraiya SM or not


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Prove they are dupes in the first place



Yeah, like I'm going to waste my time there.

Again, do you want to debate or complain about not having a poll?


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Impulse785 said:


> This match up needs another or maybe all 3 Sannin to be fair as right now the masters stomp Jiraiya SM or not



Not in reality though but it's nice to have dreams


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Still waiting on sincere debate


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## JayK (Jun 24, 2021)

this guy is literally living in his own universe

really scary to look at

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam if you don't want to get owned so often in your threads just stop making them



You're getting dogpiled every thread, is this really a productive use of your time


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Shazam if you don't want to get owned so often in your threads just stop making them
> 
> 
> 
> You're getting dogpiled every thread, is this really a productive use of your time



If you're conceding just say that. Otherwise let's hear more of your arguments


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## Monarch (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Yeah, like I'm going to waste my time there.


Concession accepted .


Shazam said:


> Again, do you want to debate or complain about not having a poll?


Never mentioned that in the first place .

I know you aren't gonna add a poll because the so called " dupes " that you can't even prove are " dupes " will dog diff Jiraiya in the poll .

So whatever , Juicy G .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> If you're conceding just say that. Otherwise let's hear more of your arguments


I gave you plenty

You didn't have an answer for Asura's Fukasaku-blitzing speed or Animal Path's Jiraiya-blitzing speed or JMan's Ibiki-tier reactions

All you did was dance around the question bc the sanctity of your idol was questioned

That's tough

It's okay tho man, Kashin Koji had good feats


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Gai's speed is severely overplayed and overrated. The only arguments made for Gai has to do with upper God Tiers which he has no business being in discussions with


Still regardless of what you think speed wise he is faaar more impressive than Jiriaya 
As he is comparable to SM Minato 

unless you want to head canon Jiriaya Being Minato speed tier

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I gave you plenty
> 
> You didn't have an answer for Asura's Fukasaku-blitzing speed or Animal Path's Jiraiya-blitzing speed or JMan's Ibiki-tier reactions
> 
> ...



Your garbage arguments suited only to downplay were taken to the dumpster.

Concede or provide an argument


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Your garbage arguments suited only to downplay were taken to the dumpster.
> 
> Concede or provide an argument


Translation: concession accepted


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## dabi (Jun 24, 2021)

I don’t see SM Jiraiya beating both Kakashi and Guy at the same time

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Translation: concession accepted



Indeed. Your concession is accepted 

Now move out of the way for someone who is smart enough to argue this match


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

dabi said:


> I don’t see SM Jiraiya beating both Kakashi and Guy at the same time



Ok, I am listening


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 24, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Indeed. Your concession is accepted
> 
> Now move out of the way for someone who is smart enough to argue this match


No one has the time or crayons to break it down for you

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> No one has the time or crayons to break it down for you



K

Bye now


----------



## Shazam (Jun 24, 2021)

Anyone else?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 24, 2021)

I love Sannin vs Masters threads because both sides always say the most outlandishly stupid shit to wank both sides over the other

Weve got "Gai impales himself on Jizo" on one side

"Gai blitzes and oneshots" on the other side

Then "Base Gai is stronger than SM jiraiya"

"Itachi level individual masters" 

Its a gold mine for someone like me who doesnt have a dog in the race and can see that both sides have a terrible tendency to get wanked af

Yes that was me shitting on literally all of yall with the hot takes on both sides. Ill pick a fight with both camps. I dont care.


Jiraiya gets rolled btw, like real badly, but in no universe does he get blitzed and oneshotted  

Give him another Sannin and theyd take it decisively tho 

OR just give him Manda instead of his fodder ass toads 

We all know Manda solos the WA masters

Reactions: Optimistic 4


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## Azula (Jun 24, 2021)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I love Sannin vs Masters threads because both sides always say the most outlandishly stupid shit to wank both sides over the other
> 
> Weve got "Gai impales himself on Jizo" on one side


Nothing outlandish about getting impaled on spiky hair.



It is manga facts.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Jiriaya has zero ability to prevent gai from getting into cqc range where once again Jiriaya has zero ability to defend against hirudora 

he also can’t defend kamui despite all the head canon read above 

it’s funny because the same jutsu that allows objto to tower above him Kakashi has . Kakashi also became a happy spammer of the jutsu

to the point Minato knew how it worked


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Azula said:


> Nothing outlandish about getting impaled on spiky hair.
> 
> 
> 
> It is manga facts.


Scans 
What I see is orochimaru getting through it rather easily


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 25, 2021)




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## Azula (Jun 25, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Scans
> What I see is orochimaru getting through it rather easily


No, you see a drugged Jiraiya struggling with an immortal (almost). . Gai is not an immortal.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

I think I've seen all the arguments...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Azula said:


> No, you see a drugged Jiraiya struggling with an immortal (almost). . Gai is not an immortal.


 
So Jiriaya didn’t get bit despite hiding behind his hair ?


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## Azula (Jun 25, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> So Jiriaya didn’t get bit despite hiding behind his hair ?


*drugged jiraiya gets bit by a character who can shrug off getting impaled (unlike Gai).  
*Normal Jiraiya has better control over his hair jutsu and can shred a summon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Azula said:


> *drugged jiraiya gets bit by a character who can shrug off getting impaled (unlike Gai).
> *Normal Jiraiya has better control over his hair jutsu and can shred a summon.


Yes and kid sasuke  can kick a large bear 
No idea what that has to do with being able to do shit against gai
We saw that very same jutsu be laughably trolled by wood replacement something intro Sakura could do

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Yes and kid sasuke  can kick a large bear
> No idea what that has to do with being able to do shit against gai
> We saw that very same jutsu be laughably trolled by wood replacement something intro Sakura could do



Lol

Did this guy really compare a Boss Summon from Pain/Nagato to a bear 

The downplay is absurd


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Lol
> 
> Did this guy really compare a Boss Summon from Pain/Nagato to a bear
> 
> The downplay is absurd


>Strong characters can't use weak summons
Lol, what kind of argument even is that now? Do you also scale Rinnengan Sasuke's hawk to Rikudo level?

The crab was summoned to get rid of the oil, it wasn't even implied that it's a fighting-type summon.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Neutral 1


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## Azula (Jun 25, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Yes and kid sasuke  can kick a large bear
> No idea what that has to do with being able to do shit against gai
> We saw that very same jutsu be laughably trolled by wood replacement something intro Sakura could do


Well then according to your logic Konan must be worse than Sakura if she was restrained by the hair and unable to escape without help. 

Pein was able to escape t because Jiraiya stopped his assault and tried ralking to him, giving him the opening to do so. Also the path has the ability to instantly summon anything giving him more advantage to pull off this.

If Gai gets near Jiraiya he gets  impaled by the hair.


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> >Strong characters can't use weak summons
> Lol, what kind of argument even is that now? Do you also scale Rinnengan Sasuke's hawk to Rikudo level?
> 
> The crab was summoned to get rid of the oil, it wasn't even implied that it's a fighting-type summon.



Wow.  

The downplay these low-lifes pull on Sannin threads is beyond reason. 

CE Sasuke wouldn't hope to defeat ANY boss summon from ANY character we have seen. 

Yet you have the audacity to continue your nonsensical arguments

Why do we even bother


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

The fact that master-fans need to rely on the Asura Path “blitz’d” Jiriaya to argue their stance effectively, shows they are extremely misguided and trolling, and only convinces me even more that the masters loose


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> The fact that master-fans need to rely on the Asura Path “blitz’d” Jiriaya to argue their stance effectively, shows they are extremely misguided and trolling, and only convinces me even more that the masters loose



... And try to compare a wild bear during the FoD that Sasuke uses Lions Barrage on to defeat to Pain's Boss Crab Summon.

Only because Jiraiya easily disposed of it. 

So their downplay logic tells them it's no different than a bear in the woods


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Wow.
> 
> The downplay these low-lifes pull on Sannin threads is beyond reason.
> 
> ...


Pain's Crab is not a boss summon, it's not even bigger than the Oro's snake which was negdiffed by KN0 Naruto in Forest of Death.


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Pain's Crab is not a boss summon, it's not even bigger than the Oro's snake which was negdiffed by KN0 Naruto in Forest of Death.



The fact is we all know it, you're downplaying this _one particular summon_ because Jiraiya easily defeats it. 

And further without evidence compare it to a wild bear in FoD 

Trolls. You guys are some bad ones at that.


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

Well, I think it's established. 

Jiraiya > Kakashi + Gai. 

It was a good chat but we can close it up @FlamingRain

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> The fact that master-fans need to rely on the Asura Path “blitz’d” Jiriaya to argue their stance effectively, shows they are extremely misguided and trolling, and only convinces me even more that the masters loose


Only saw a couple people say this

It shouldn’t impact your conclusion, if it does it just means you’re bias for Jiraiya and seeing people bias against him pissed you off to the point of affecting your frontal lobe

You were never going to conclude them as winners anyway, even if you were the only one to reply in here. No one had to read your post to know that either.


Shazam said:


> Well, I think it's established.
> 
> Jiraiya > Kakashi + Gai.
> 
> It was a good chat but we can close it up @FlamingRain


? 

Majority have Masters winning with flying colors.

We can close it on those grounds I suppose.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> The fact is we all know it, you're downplaying this _one particular summon_ because Jiraiya easily defeats it.
> 
> And further without evidence compare it to a wild bear in FoD
> 
> Trolls. You guys are some bad ones at that.


Sure, sure, and Sasuke's hawk is God Tier.


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Only saw a couple people say this
> 
> It shouldn’t impact your conclusion, if it does it just means you’re bias for Jiraiya and seeing people bias against him pissed you off to the point of affecting your frontal lobe
> 
> ...



Majority = The Master fans and their dupes. 

The arguments so far have all been trollish. "Asura blitzes Jiraiya ", "Pains Summons = Bear in the woods", "Jiraiya can't react to Animal Path"

Yeah, it's over

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Lol
> 
> Did this guy really compare a Boss Summon from Pain/Nagato to a bear
> 
> The downplay is absurd


The summon and bear equally did nothing
So sure they are comparable

the crab has neither feats nor hype
In fact the only thing it showed is it could be killed by a jutsu intro Sakura level of replacement technique can avoid


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Majority = The Master fans and their dupes.
> 
> The arguments so far have all been trollish. "Asura blitzes Jiraiya ", "Pains Summons = Bear in the woods", "Jiraiya can't react to Animal Path"
> 
> Yeah, it's over


No, more arguments were made than the select few fringe sentences you nitpicked from a couple posts.

The “Summon and outnumber” argument is probably the least IC and most idiotic argument you could make for Jiraiya here and that is the premise of several of you

God forbid you criticize anyone else

Reactions: Agree 5


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Azula said:


> Well then according to your logic Konan must be worse than Sakura if she was restrained by the hair and unable to escape without help.
> 
> Pein was able to escape t because Jiraiya stopped his assault and tried ralking to him, giving him the opening to do so. Also the path has the ability to instantly summon anything giving him more advantage to pull off this.
> 
> If Gai gets near Jiraiya he gets  impaled by the hair.


She was by oil 
But nice try


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, more arguments were made than the select few fringe sentences you nitpicked from a couple posts.
> 
> The “Summon and outnumber” argument is probably the least IC and most idiotic argument you could make for Jiraiya here and that is the premise of several of you
> 
> God forbid you criticize anyone else


Facts


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Only saw a couple people say this
> 
> It shouldn’t impact your conclusion, if it does it just means you’re bias for Jiraiya and seeing people bias against him pissed you off to the point of affecting your frontal lobe
> 
> ...


Not really. If an objective person comes in to read arguments counter to their own; and the only arguments they see rely on drawing disingenuous conclusions about Asura, realm, then it simply going to seem like there isn’t an objective argument for the masters win, which would objectively make someone believe Jiriaya win is more likely.
—
You accusing me of bias when I actually said it was a good fight doesn’t really matter to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Wow.
> 
> The downplay these low-lifes pull on Sannin threads is beyond reason.
> 
> ...


Who cares if they think the Crab is weak, like why does this matter in any argument here


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, more arguments were made than the select few fringe sentences you nitpicked from a couple posts.
> 
> The “Summon and outnumber” argument is probably the least IC and most idiotic argument you could make for Jiraiya here and that is the premise of several of you
> 
> God forbid you criticize anyone else



Let's try this one more time. For sake of common sense. 

1) Jiraiya (Sannin in general) are renowned for their Kuchiyose. Implications around summoning is highly IC. 

2) Being outnumbered is a strong argument and is entirely true. Whilst in Sage Mode, Jiraiya already has the numbers advantage from the start. Adding more summons to the field (i.e Bunta) increases that advantage. Why can this be important? Because it splits up the fight and can allow for temporary 1v1s (or in Jiraiya's case 3v1). 

So, I'll entertain you for a bit. I'm done with the others and their troll-tier "arguments" they are calling debate. 

The floor is yours


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Who cares if they think the Crab is weak, like why does this matter in any argument here



It doesn't, but just another example of blatant downplay. And dishonesty


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Who cares if they think the Crab is weak, like why does this matter in any argument here


Azula's argument was that Jman beats them with his hair jutsu, so the scene of its best feat where it takes down crab was brought up.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Azula's argument was that Jman beats them with his hair jutsu, so the scene of its best feat where it takes down crab was brought up.


Where did she say that


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Azula said:


> Gai impales himself on spiky hair and dies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@Turrin


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## Azula (Jun 25, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> She was by oil
> But nice try


Excuses. 

Animal path was restrained by hair on all sides yet he still managed this move that supposedly every ninja can do.

Or maybe not everyone can and animal path was a special case due to Jiraiya's leniency.


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## Rin (Jun 25, 2021)

The broken logic of Guy wankers is getting even more weirdo.

1) If Guy is that strong, how is he Kakashi's rival?
2) If Guy is that strong, why couldn't he rebate the TBBs like KCM2 Naruto did?
3) If Guy is that strong, why was he portrayed as weaker than Pain?
4) If Guy is that strong, why didn't he just speedblitz Rinnegan Obito and ended the war?
5) Why would Madara have a tough time reacting to 7G when he reacts to 8G?

The speed and powerscaling people say Guy has goes against his own thoughts.

Guy just has an insane taijutsu, that's it. That is why he could dance for a minimum time against Madara, and that is still debatable since Madara wasn't serious.

He is also a speedster, but not nearly the level people place him. Still inferior to V2 Ei4.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> @Turrin


Seems to me she was only talking about Gai’s physical attacks being countered; not his entire arsenal as she mentions other counters to AT. In which case Hari-Jizo, especially Sage amped causing problems for Gai physical attacks is pretty obvious, no crab debate needed

Reactions: Agree 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Seems to me she was only talking about Gai’s physical attacks being countered; not his entire arsenal as she mentions other counters to AT. In which case Hari-Jizo, especially Sage amped causing problems for Gai physical attacks is pretty obvious, no crab debate needed


Nah read it again, she said that if Gai gets in Jman's face, he gets killed with hair spikes lol


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

R1nn3 said:


> The broken logic of Guy wankers is getting even more weirdo.
> 
> 1) If Guy is that strong, how is he Kakashi's rival?
> 2) If Guy is that strong, why couldn't he rebate the TBBs like KCM2 Naruto did?
> ...



Exactly. 

They bring things about Juubidara, not understanding that those arguments would have to mean Gai could insta-blitz characters like Nagato, EMS Madara, Hashirama and perhaps even Juubito low diff. If he could pressure Juubidara then 7G Gai is God Tier no question. 

How silly is that

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Nah read it again, she said that if Gai gets in Jman's face, he gets killed with hair spikes lol



I haven't heard a decent argument from you yet. 

You've done nothing but imply that Jiraiya can't react to Asura and defend others doing the same essentially. 

Do you even have a non-troll argument


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Nah read it again, she said that if Gai gets in Jman's face, he gets killed with hair spikes lol


Yeah “gets in face” is attacking him physically. Am I wrong @Azula


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Yeah “gets in face” is attacking him physically. Am I wrong @Azula


His attacks being countered isn't the end of it though, she says he DIES against the spikes.


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> I haven't heard a decent argument from you yet.
> 
> You've done nothing but imply that Jiraiya can't react to Asura and defend others doing the same essentially.
> 
> Do you even have a non-troll argument


Jman has simply no counter to Hirudora or Kamui, so he dies to either of those. Not sure what else you need to hear


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> His attacks being countered isn't the end of it though, she says he DIES against the spikes.


I’m assuming she means if Gai throws an attack and gets pierced by the spikes this would the make him an easy target to finish off. I agree it’s worded poorly but usually I would just ask for clariification rather then jump on someone for this


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Jman has simply no counter to Hirudora or Kamui, so he dies to either of those. Not sure what else you need to hear


Probably reasoning as to why he can’t counter them lol


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## Azula (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Hari-Jizo, especially Sage amped causing problems for Gai physical attacks is pretty obvious, no crab debate needed


Agreed.


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> I’m assuming she means if Gai throws an attack and gets pierced by the spikes this would the make him an easy target to finish off. I agree it’s worded poorly but usually I would just ask for clariification rather then jump on someone for this


Eh might as well then reconstruct the Asura Path blitz arguments into a more agreeable version and not jump on the people making them


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Eh might as well then reconstruct the Asura Path blitz arguments the same way and not jump on the people making them


Except I have and all of them dishonestly/ignorantly ignore context. But I’m willing to hear them out again from you, if you want to tell me what I’m missing that makes these good arguments


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## t0xeus (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Except I have and all of them dishonestly/ignorantly ignore context. But I’m willing to hear them out again from you, if you want to tell me what I’m missing that makes these good arguments


Gai can attract Jman's attention for a while, allowing Kakashi to take advantage of that drop in guard in Jman and warp directly behind Jman with Kamui and attack him, basically replicating Asura Path blindside attack which Jman showed he is unable to defend from


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Jman has simply no counter to Hirudora or Kamui, so he dies to either of those. Not sure what else you need to hear



His counter to Kamui is using Summons like Bunta who can force Kakashi's attention and attack with house-sized suiton bombs. And possibly adding another summoning to create more diversions. 

His counter to Hirudora is to constantly badger Gai with ranged ninjutsu. If Gai somehow manages to keep past everything like Yomi Numa, senpo Goemon, Gamayu Edan. Then Jiraiya can insta-create Senpo COR that Gai runs right into. Heck, COR could be used as a shield of sorts against an approaching Hirudora. But least of all, Gai could easily be trapped in Toad Mouth Prison.


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Gai can attract Jman's attention for a while, allowing Kakashi to take advantage of that drop in guard in Jman and warp directly behind Jman with Kamui and attack him, *basically replicating Asura Path blindside attack* which Jman showed he is unable to defend from


When you say this maneuver would replicate Asura’s blindside, you are also not accounting for context, like all the other Asura based Arguments in this thread.

Jiriaya thought Pain was dead, so his guard (and Fusaku/Shima’s) was completely down. Here Jiriaya/Ma/Pa would still know they are fighting 2 enemies and know he needs to be wary of Kakashi even if Gai is currently attempting to distract them.

So the situations are not the same.

Rather the situation your describing is more like when Jiriaya was focusing on one Path and was attack from behind by another; which he and the elder toads handled no issue whatsoever

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Not really. If an objective person comes in to read arguments counter to their own; and the only arguments they see rely on drawing disingenuous conclusions about Asura, realm, then it simply going to seem like there isn’t an objective argument for the masters win, which would objectively make someone believe Jiriaya win is more likely.
> —
> You accusing me of bias when I actually said it was a good fight doesn’t really matter to me.


No, it would remain the same. Dumb arguments on all topics are everywhere in this world it doesn’t shape how I interpret with my frontal lobe. If it shapes how you interpret with yours I’m sorry to hear that.


Shazam said:


> Let’s try this one more time. For sake of common sense.
> 1) Jiraiya (Sannin in general) are renowned for their Kuchiyose. Implications around summoning is highly IC.
> 
> 2) Being outnumbered is a strong argument and is entirely true. Whilst in Sage Mode, Jiraiya already has the numbers advantage from the start. Adding more summons to the field (i.e Bunta) increases that advantage. Why can this be important? Because it splits up the fight and can allow for temporary 1v1s (or in Jiraiya's case 3v1).
> ...


Ok.

No it’s not, being outnumbered only matters when the opponents are of close value. I could beat 20 children to death with my bare hands, but just 1 man could very well beat me to death with his. You think a boss toad is of close value to Kakashi or Guy? You’re insane pal.

It’s not important because he won’t do it. He didn’t do it when he was facing 3 Rinnegan wielders he openly admitted would kill him. He didn’t do it when he was facing 6 Rinnegan wielders, double the amount he admitted would kill him, and was heavily wounded/handicapped.

But now suddenly he’s bringing out his whole toad gang against two guys he thinks are kage supports at best? Get real. 

You’re not done, you’ve been saying you’re done for the last page and you’re not done. Stop saying you’re done. If you’re done then be done.


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, it would remain the same. Dumb arguments on all topics are everywhere in this world it doesn’t shape how I interpret with my frontal lobe. If it shapes how you interpret with yours I’m sorry to hear that.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> ...


Yeah a premise that lacks persuasive arguments is not a persuasive premise for me. If you are persuaded by unpersuasive arguments then you do you


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Yeah a premise that lacks persuasive arguments is not a persuasive premise for me. If you are persuaded by unpersuasive arguments then you do you


You shouldn’t be swayed one way or the other by nonsensical arguments. You are a grown man. The fact that you read a fringe point and somehow got more entrenched in your stance is just proof that you are bias on the topic.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> You shouldn’t be swayed one way or the other by nonsensical arguments. You are a grown man. The fact that you read a fringe point and somehow got more entrenched in your stance is just proof that you are bias on the topic.


Nonsensical arguments are not persuasive; and that’s specifically what I’m saying doesn’t persuade me. So not sure what your missing.

I don’t care if you think I’m bias on the topic since I also think your bias. Gets us nowhere


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Azula said:


> Excuses.
> 
> Animal path was restrained by hair on all sides yet he still managed this move that supposedly every ninja can do.
> 
> Or maybe not everyone can and animal path was a special case due to Jiraiya's leniency.


You arguing your point 
Thus gai will ignore it since animal path could


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya thought Pain was dead, so his guard (and Fusaku/Shima’s) was completely down. Here Jiriaya/Ma/Pa would still know they are fighting 2 enemies and know he needs to be wary of Kakashi even if Gai is currently attempting to distract them.
> 
> So the situations are not the same.


You're right, the situation is not the same. It's worse. Kakashi can literally disappear from the battlefield and reappear wherever and whenever he wants. With Asura, there was still a physical presence TO be wary of. Whether Jiraiya thought he was dead or not, he still had something physical to react to. Asura had to move behind Jiraiya from somewhere. 

Besides, it's not unreasonable to think that Kakashi would play dead before warping away. He did something similar when he hid those chains underneath Pain and he LITERALLY played dead when he used Kamui to save himself from Pain's nail.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rin (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> You've done nothing but imply that Jiraiya can't react to Asura and defend others doing the same essentially.


That is like saying Kinkaku can't react to Darui's speed.   





How can people be so delusional.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You're right, the situation is not the same. It's worse. Kakashi can literally disappear from the battlefield and reappear wherever and whenever he wants. With Asura, there was still a physical presence TO be wary of. Whether Jiraiya thought he was dead or not, he still had something physical to react to. Asura had to move behind Jiraiya from somewhere.
> 
> Besides, it's not unreasonable to think that Kakashi would play dead before warping away. He did something similar when he hid those chains underneath Pain and he LITERALLY played dead when he used Kamui to save himself from Pain's nail.



Using Kamui the size of his body to leave the battlefield still takes time to build up said chakra needed. Additionally, to leave and then to come back (likely in quick successions) means heavy chakra drain. How many times did Kakashi use Kamui prior to being recharged by Kurama? And how many of those were consecutive uses? And how many of those where full body sized? 

Jiraiya knew those Paths were dead as he finished them himself and up close. He won't let Kakashi lay there and not do the same.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 25, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Nonsensical arguments are not persuasive; and that’s specifically what I’m saying doesn’t persuade me. So not sure what your missing.
> 
> I don’t care if you think I’m bias on the topic since I also think your bias. Gets us nowhere


It did persuade you, but in the other direction. Which means you got pissed off and your response was to get further entrenched in your original conclusion, which means you’re bias. You had an emotional reaction to someone calling Jiraiya slow for being blitzed by Asura, this means you like Jiraiya a lot, this means you favor him, and your response was to entrench yourself further into supporting him. This is bias.

What you consider bias is irrelevant since you think you aren’t bias, when everyone just saw proof that you were. If you can’t recognize your own bias even when someone points it out to you no one should really be concerned who you consider bias since you clearly can’t identify what bias is to begin with even while being directly instructed.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

Bump


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> It did persuade you, but in the other direction. Which means you got pissed off and your response was to get further entrenched in your original conclusion, which means you’re bias. You had an emotional reaction to someone calling Jiraiya slow for being blitzed by Asura, this means you like Jiraiya a lot, this means you favor him, and your response was to entrench yourself further into supporting him. This is bias.
> 
> What you consider bias is irrelevant since you think you aren’t bias, when everyone just saw proof that you were. If you can’t recognize your own bias even when someone points it out to you no one should really be concerned who you consider bias since you clearly can’t identify what bias is to begin with even while being directly instructed.


1) No the lack of any persuasive arguments from any poster in the thread pushes the needle in the opposite direction. Not one poster individual argument  

2) Yup I don’t think I’m bias and I think you are; and only showing proof of your bias with how your lashing out at my posts. So this goes nowhere.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gulash (Jun 25, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Jiriaya has the advantage in cqc
> And the reeeeh clan are surprised they get teased . Such words were actually written down
> 
> Cqc advantage against by far the best taijutsu user shown in the manga is an intensely stupid thing to say


Cqc is not just about taijutsu 
Just to pint that out


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## LightningForce (Jun 25, 2021)

It's 2021 and people still think Sannins have a chance against WA Kakashi and 7th Gate Guy *together*?

Oh lord...

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> It's 2021 and people still think WA Masters have a chance against *Jiraiya*?
> 
> Oh lord...



Fixed


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## LightningForce (Jun 25, 2021)

Kakashi warping a full body so fast not even Rinnegan Obito could detect it:


*Spoiler*: __ 









7th Gate Guy doing significantly better than SM Minato:


Sannin stand zero chance against WA Masters.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Kakashi warping a full body so fast not even Rinnegan Obito could detect it:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Whose dupe accounts are you using? Nearly word by word of someone familiar


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 25, 2021)

Gulash said:


> Cqc is not just about taijutsu
> Just to pint that out


Then feel free to elaborate on what you believe close quarters combat is 
And how the use of ninjitsu helps Jiriaya in such a situation


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## LightningForce (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Whose dupe accounts are you using? Nearly word by word of someone familiar



Maybe you think that because the same arguments, in the same threads, with the same matchups, have been repeatedly done and beaten to death since 2011?


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## Shazam (Jun 25, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Maybe you think that because the same arguments, in the same threads, with the same matchups, have been repeatedly done and beaten to death since 2011?



And from 2011 - 2020 Masters were largely considered below Sannin until dupes


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## LightningForce (Jun 25, 2021)

Shazam said:


> And from 2011 - 2020 Masters were largely considered below Sannin until dupes



Is that what’s taught at Sannin university? That anybody who argues for Masters is considered a dupe? 


I suggest you finally start reading Naruto manga after Pain arc. I know SM Jiraiya was impressive during his time but it’s time to move on after his death, Naruto did and so should you. You’d find out that Masters’ feats and portrayal are on a whole different level, as expected of the infamous War arc where power levels just went crazy bonkers.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## deltaniner (Jun 25, 2021)

How to say you've lost without actually saying you've lost.

"Dupes."

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 3


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 25, 2021)

Gai slaps Jiraiya while Kakashi reads Makeout Paradise.

JIke’s aside, even if you think Jiraiya can beat either individually, taking both of these guys on at the same time is way above his pay grade. He gets stomped.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 25, 2021)

Azula said:


> Gai impales himself on spiky hair and dies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What speed feats suggest that Jiraiya can keep up with Gated Gai? Never mind the fact that he doesn’t need to touch him with the higher Gates.


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> , even if you think Jiraiya can beat either individually, taking both of these guys on at the same time is way above his pay grade. He gets stomped.



Why so?


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## Lee-Sensei (Jun 26, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Why so?


It’s pretty obvious. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> It’s pretty obvious. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.



I dont think that is obvious at all. But sure, I disagree.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Danisor (Jun 26, 2021)

Lol at J-Man overpowering the Masters with his summons, old fart gets stomped.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Kage 1


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## Monarch (Jun 26, 2021)

Jiraiya got negged by the Masters in this thread , exactly as it would happen in canon .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Danisor (Jun 26, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Jiraiya got negged by the Masters in this thread , exactly as it would happen in canon .

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Danisor said:


> Lol at J-Man overpowering the Masters with his summons, old fart gets stomped.



Ok, let's discuss how this works in your opinion


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Jiraiya got negged by the Masters in this thread , exactly as it would happen in canon .



No really, this response added nothing to the thread. 

How about telling us how Jiraiya gets bodied


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## Danisor (Jun 26, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Ok, let's discuss how this works in your opinion


In what alternate dimension is J-Man ever beating the masters at the same time?


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

The same argument over the first 4 pages that was completely denounced


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Danisor said:


> In what alternate dimension is J-Man ever beating the masters at the same time?



Well, before we start repeating arguments, read through the thread


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

I'm sure I'm quoting the same person between these two


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## Danisor (Jun 26, 2021)

"Hurr durr, J-Man is beating the masters because uhh, uhh... summons, and... anyone who says otherwise is a Sannin hater"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Danisor said:


> "Hurr durr, J-Man is beating the masters because uhh, uhh... summons, and... anyone who says otherwise is a Sannin hater"



Is this your argument?


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## Danisor (Jun 26, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Is this your argument?


Because "hurr durr, J-Man summons go brrr" is so much better.


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Danisor said:


> Because "hurr durr, J-Man summons go brrr" is so much better.



Ok, have I heard your entire premise... or is there more?


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## Danisor (Jun 26, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Ok, have I heard your entire premise... or is there more?


I didn't see you bring anything else besides his summons, was there something I missed?


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Danisor said:


> I didn't see you bring anything else besides his summons, was there something I missed?



Sure I have... it's been posted in this thread. So you haven't even read through it yet


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 26, 2021)

Gotta thank Shazam, he is a great entertainer. 

He wants to keep the forum alive and makes himself look ridiculous to keep the activity going. 

How is anyone going to believe Jman will outplay Kakashi's sharingan or Gai's gates in CQC when he his blindside SM punch got neg blocked by Human or animal Path?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Shazam (Jun 26, 2021)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> when he his blindside SM punch got neg blocked by Human or animal Path?



They weren't _blindside_ when shared vision is involved..


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 27, 2021)

Shazam said:


> They weren't _blindside_ when shared vision is involved..



That's fair but it does not change the fact that it got casually blocked. 

Iirc the best feat he has is blinding a path after it tried to bumrush him by kicking him straight in the eyes. 

Then we have his punch getting neg diffed. 

If I am not mistaken, base Jiraiya has never been shown to be a physical beast so SM making him competent is not surprising, but not nearly enough to say he would even beat base Gai let alone gated Gai. 

Unless you have other feats we can consider?


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## Serene Grace (Jun 27, 2021)

These are the kinds of threads I want to wake up to. 

I love this place

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2021)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> That's fair but it does not change the fact that it got casually blocked.
> 
> Iirc the best feat he has is blinding a path after it tried to bumrush him by kicking him straight in the eyes.
> 
> ...


Base Jiriaya was relative to Konan who is faster then FKS Kakashi, who is probably the same speed as Start of WA Kakashi, who was relative to 6G Gai. Which means Base Jiriaya is faster then Start of WA Kakashi and 6G Gai; and really 7G and End of WA Kakashi are needed just to step to Base-Jiraiya’s speed, let alone Sage Jiriaya.

Also supported Sage Jiriaya (and his Jutsu) being faster then Sage Naruto and his Jutsu, who blitz’d Asura Realm who was faster then PA-Kakashi top speed with Raikiri. And PA Kakashi is also probably the same speed as Early WA Kakashi. Konan was also faster then Asura Realm too as she actually reacted to KSM Naruto as oppose to being outright blitz’d, who again Base Jiriaya is relative too.

So the bottom line is

Sage Jiriaya > Sage PA Naruto >= Base Jiriaya >= Konan > Asura Realm >= Early WA Kakashi =~ 6G WA Gai >= FKS Kakashi >= PA Kakashi

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 27, 2021)

Hilarious reeeeeh going on 
One can outperform SM Minato 
The other fails to outperform hypeless puppets 

NBD logic SM jiraya is as fast as 7G gai

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Jun 27, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Hilarious reeeeeh going on
> One can outperform SM Minato
> The other fails to outperform hypeless puppets
> 
> NBD logic SM jiraya is as fast as 7G gai



All of this is wrong though


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 27, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Base Jiriaya was relative to Konan who is faster then FKS Kakashi, who is probably the same speed as Start of WA Kakashi, who was relative to 6G Gai. Which means Base Jiriaya is faster then Start of WA Kakashi and 6G Gai; and really 7G and End of WA Kakashi are needed just to step to Base-Jiraiya’s speed, let alone Sage Jiriaya.



Wow so despite all of that, SM Jiraiya's punch is shown to be casually reacted to and blocked by Human Path. 

 Would you say Human path Taijutsu abilities that eclipse the Masters and anybody at their level then? 

Also what speed are you referring to? 

There is movement speed, reaction speed and combat speed, the later 2 which are the most important in a CQC battle.



Turrin said:


> Also supported Sage Jiriaya (and his Jutsu) being faster then Sage Naruto and his Jutsu, who blitz’d Asura Realm who was faster then PA-Kakashi top speed with Raikiri. And PA Kakashi is also probably the same speed as Early WA Kakashi. Konan was also faster then Asura Realm too as she actually reacted to KSM Naruto as oppose to being outright blitz’d, who again Base Jiriaya is relative too.



So according to your logic, Kakashi intercepted Deva's attack on Iruka so that makes him faster than all the characters you listed. He also intercepted Obito's attack faster than BM Naruto could counter, while exhausted, making him massively faster than Jman. 

There is really no difference to the interception feats you posted such as SM Naruto intercepting Asura. 



Turrin said:


> So the bottom line is
> 
> Sage Jiriaya > Sage PA Naruto >= Base Jiriaya >= Konan > Asura Realm >= Early WA Kakashi =~ 6G WA Gai >= FKS Kakashi >= PA Kakashi



I think you meant to type that backwards.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Azula (Jun 28, 2021)

LightningForce said:


> Kakashi warping a full body so fast not even Rinnegan Obito could detect it:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Seems you misunderstood what happened.

Kakashi did not warp it so fast it is undetectable. He just timed it right so that Obito thinks the clone is getting destroyed by his attack. Clone vanishing was very much detectable, Obito just thought it was because of his attack, the clone was destroyed.

Kamui warping is still slower than a lot of things and Obito and Kakashi get frequently interrupted in the middle of it.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 28, 2021)

Shazam said:


> All of this is wrong though


 
You the lad who thinks Gai isn’t faster despite all evidence to the contrary 
How can one take you seriously ?


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## Shazam (Jun 28, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> You the lad who thinks Gai isn’t faster despite all evidence to the contrary
> How can one take you seriously ?



Gai is indeed faster in CqC/Taijutsu. If I have said otherwise then I must have been messing with you. 

Not that it gives Gai and Kakashi the win however


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## Speedyamell (Jun 28, 2021)

Azula said:


> Seems you misunderstood what happened.
> 
> Kakashi did not warp it so fast it is undetectable. He just timed it right so that Obito thinks the clone is getting destroyed by his attack. Clone vanishing was very much detectable, Obito just thought it was because of his attack, the clone was destroyed.
> 
> Kamui warping is still slower than a lot of things and Obito and Kakashi get frequently interrupted in the middle of it.


No one can misinterpret a scene like masters wankers. That's why we have god tier 7G gai

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Jun 28, 2021)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Wow so despite all of that, SM Jiraiya's punch is shown to be casually reacted to and blocked by Human Path.
> 
> Would you say Human path Taijutsu abilities that eclipse the Masters and anybody at their level then?
> 
> ...


1) I would say Human Path with Shared Vision has better reactions then the Early WA Masters (with the exception of 7G, where it’s more debatable). And hopefully this isn’t just leading to an argument form incredulity from you, where despite Human Realm having better Feats, your just going to claim it’s impossible for you to believe he is that fast with Zero evidence to support that claim.

2) I’m talking about Combat Speed

3) Or maybe Deva wasn’t going all out on Iruka there considering Iruka is Fodder to him; and literally a few panels later we see him easily stab Kakashi with the same exact move, this time with Kakashi being unable to react in time to intercept it. And then Deva goes on to have even more impressive speed feats later.

As oppose to Asura realm who outspeeds Kakashi’s Raikiri *twice*, which traditionally is when Kakashi is using his Top Speed and Kakashi has no reason to be holding back when trying to hit Pain.

The comparison your drawing is clearly a false equivalency.

4)  I don’t know what the scene is your referring to with BM Naruto. You will need to give me a scan or chapter for that but I imagine there is different context for that too

5) You would think it’s logical that PA Kakashi >= FKS Kakashi for some reason


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 28, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Gai is indeed faster in CqC/Taijutsu.


And moving from A to B . Unless you are trolling 


Shazam said:


> If I have said otherwise then I must have been messing with you.
> 
> Not that it gives Gai and Kakashi the win however


Sure but featless summons who have amounted to nothing in 700 pages of manga is what guarantees Jiriaya victory right ?


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## Shazam (Jun 28, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> And moving from A to B . Unless you are trolling
> 
> Sure but featless summons who have amounted to nothing in 700 pages of manga is what guarantees Jiriaya victory right ?



Depends on what you consider "_amounted for nothing_"  

And what is Gai's best Shunshin feat


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 28, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Depends on what you consider "_amounted for nothing_"


Scans of what they did please . Because in 700 chapters bar falling on kyuubi. Which is no different to chouji punching GM or 6G gai tripping GM . Can’t really see what achievement you can say the boss of the summons has


Shazam said:


> And what is Gai's best Shunshin feat


Getting in front of a juubi jin
Something hirashin was required to pull off
As KCM naruto and EMs sasuke with their own physical speed couldn’t even do that

only BSM naruto and legged susanoo sasuke after awhile could even physically close the gap between them and a juubi jin

What we do know is SM Minato didn’t do better than 7G gai

what we also know is in every aspect of speed SM MINATO>>> Jiriaya

you are free to head canon that

or show me a scan of any ninja physically closing the gap between themselves and a juubi jin without being easily read

what SM JIRIAYA best speed feat please … I don’t think he even has any bar beating gravity


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## Shazam (Jun 28, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Scans of what they did please . Because in 700 chapters bar falling on kyuubi. Which is no different to chouji punching GM or 6G gai tripping GM . Can’t really see what achievement you can say the boss of the summons has
> 
> Getting in front of a juubi jin
> Something hirashin was required to pull off
> ...



Boss Summons on their own are no more than Low Kage at absolute best. Having several of them on the field against other low, mid or high Kage can certainly help turn the tide in battle. They are more or less useless against Top Tiers and above of course. So yes, they have amounted to nothing if you're focusing on what they've done to top tiers or above. The best showings being Minato using Bunta to pin Kurama for a moment and Bunta holding a weakened Shukaku at bay for a while 

The whole Gai vs Juubidara is blown ridiculously out of proportion and since that is literally the only event you can point to should tell us all we need to know

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 28, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Boss Summons on their own are no more than Low Kage at absolute best.


Sure if you say so . That’s not a high bar so pointless to dwell on tjis


Shazam said:


> Having several of them on the field against other low, mid or high Kage can certainly help turn the tide in battle.


This statement is dumb as it entirely ignores the opponents abilities in question . They are utterly useless against Muu, A3, obito , sharingan users ( impossible not to make eye contact facing giant eyes ) and so on. Useful against people who have to fight them directly sure . A lot of people don’t need to


Shazam said:


> They are more or less useless against Top Tiers and above of course. So yes, they have amounted to nothing if you're focusing on what they've done to top tiers or above. The best showings being Minato using Bunta to pin Kurama for a moment and Bunta holding a weakened Shukaku at bay for a while


The same shukaku could be trolled by rasa though again ignoring people specific abilities . SM naruto could toss 50% kyuubi around with little issue . Again none of this helps the frogs case as both enemies are hilariously faster than they are . As such the frogs will simply be given the run around . One of them can self wrap to travel any distance desired . Again means Kakashi can straight up ignore the toads


Shazam said:


> The whole Gai vs Juubidara is blown ridiculously out of proportion and since that is literally the only event you can point to should tell us all we need to know


And hilariously fought against by you clowns

while ignoring what the author showed is 7G gai did better than Minato

there is no way to deny that . Now if 7G gai could beat SM Minato at what he does best

Only dishonest internet trolls could use that to claim Gai won’t turn any and every non god tier battle into a cqc battle which is what he is good at

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sage King (Jun 28, 2021)

Interesting


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## JayK (Jun 28, 2021)




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## Shazam (Jun 28, 2021)

Rent free


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## Monarch (Jun 28, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Rent free


Says the guy who argued in his own thread for 8 pages .

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 28, 2021)

Strangely if this was Yamata orochimaru Vs masters orochimaru would win 
People ignore specific abilities and skill set alot and just keep screaming tiers list and assume all those in the same tier have the same abilities 
@Shazam


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## Shazam (Jun 28, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Says the guy who argued in his own thread for 8 pages .



Completely irrelevant, but sure.


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## Azula (Jun 28, 2021)

Speedyamell said:


> No one can misinterpret a scene like masters wankers. That's why we have god tier 7G gai


@MHA massive fan  



MHA massive fan said:


> Strangely if this was Yamata orochimaru Vs masters orochimaru would win
> People ignore specific abilities and skill set alot and just keep screaming tiers list and assume all those in the same tier have the same abilities
> @Shazam



Why can't kakashi warp orochimaru's main body so fast he doesn't know what happened. Yamata would be defeated if orochimaru's main body is warped.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 28, 2021)

Azula said:


> @MHA massive fan
> 
> 
> 
> Why can't kakashi warp orochimaru's main body so fast he doesn't know what happened. Yamata would be defeated if orochimaru's main body is warped.


 
Read what I wrote you troll
I said if it’s Yamata orochi( assuming he is already transformed ) same way this thread Jiriaya is already in SM 

before trolling learn to read


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## Azula (Jun 28, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Read what I wrote you troll
> I said if it’s Yamata orochi( assuming he is already transformed ) same way this thread Jiriaya is already in SM
> 
> before trolling learn to read


 Orochimaru still has a main body that is why Yamata isn't sealed when Itachi hits the branch snakes but gets defeated when Itachi hits the main body.

Now answer the question.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 28, 2021)

Azula said:


> Orochimaru still has a main body that is why Yamata isn't sealed when Itachi hits the branch snakes but gets defeated when Itachi hits the main body.
> 
> Now answer the question.


 
Kakashi can’t see that main body though

keep trolling


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## LightningForce (Jun 28, 2021)

Azula said:


> Seems you misunderstood what happened.
> 
> Kakashi did not warp it so fast it is undetectable. He just timed it right so that Obito thinks the clone is getting destroyed by his attack. Clone vanishing was very much detectable, Obito just thought it was because of his attack, the clone was destroyed.
> 
> Kamui warping is still slower than a lot of things and Obito and Kakashi get frequently interrupted in the middle of it.



No, Obito saw Kakashi beginning to warp Rasengan. However, he did not see him warp the clone, which was faster than his own Kamui. That is what it means to be undetectable, Kakashi’s Kamui was faster than Obito could imagine.








Not just the Rasengan, but also the _entire body._

*Speed* was emphasized by Obito in the feint.

You also have Minato not realizing whether Kakashi warped the Gedo Mazo or not.




It’s obvious Kakashi’s top warp speed is extremely fast. He doesn’t use its top speed all the time, but when he does it’s nearly undetectable by even the fastest of shinobi.

Reactions: Agree 3


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