# Katakuri vs Rayleigh



## Cognitios (Oct 6, 2017)

This is current Rayleigh vs current Katakuri
Location: Marineford
Distance: 50 meters
Knowledge: Rep


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## chinesesoccerplayer (Oct 6, 2017)

With old Rayleigh it could go either way, but I'd still give him a slight edge over Katakuri. Oda mentioned in an SBS that unlike in RL, One Piece characters still maintain most of their strength as they age. So since I have no doubt Rayleigh could defeat Katakuri in his prime, he still has a good chance of winning now that he's old. 

Oh but whoever wins is going to be extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## barreltheif (Oct 6, 2017)

chinesesoccerplayer said:


> With old Rayleigh it could go either way, but I'd still give him a slight edge over Katakuri. Oda mentioned in an SBS that unlike in RL, One Piece characters still maintain most of their strength as they age. So since I have no doubt Rayleigh could defeat Katakuri in his prime, he still has a good chance of winning now that he's old.
> 
> Oh but whoever wins is going to be extreme diff.



lolwut?

Rayleigh mid diff. Possibly even low, given that Big Mom is unstoppable to Katakuri, and I doubt she's terribly far above Rayleigh.


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## Furinji Saiga (Oct 6, 2017)

I have Rayleigh beating Marco based on portrayal and feats

and I have Marco > Katakuri, though by a small margin. 

Rayleigh takes it close to high difficulty.


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## savior2005 (Oct 6, 2017)

could go either way imo.


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## Dunno (Oct 6, 2017)

Rayleigh win with mid to high diff. He has both the feats and the hype on his side. We have Garp hyping him as a legend comparable to Whitebeard, and he managed to best Kizaru in a straight up clash. He's legit Admiral level, not some measly Yonkou FM scrub.


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## Gohara (Oct 6, 2017)

Lord Katakuri wins with high to extremely high difficulty in my opinion.  Both are First Mates but Old Rayleigh is likely around a good deal inferior compared to Prime Rayleigh since he has been inactive as a Pirate for multiple decades.  Furthermore Lord Katakuri's physical strength is superior to Gear 3rd Luffy's whose physical strength in turn is superior to Fujitora's.  From that I infer that Lord Katakuri's physical strength is likely superior to Old Rayleigh's from what we've seen so far.  Defensively Lord Katakuri not only has superior stamina but also superior evasive skills from what we've seen so far, another aspect that I give his character an edge in.  Rayleigh likely has superior combat ability as it seems fair to assume that he's one of the top swordsmen in the series.  Haki I have no idea.  Lord Katakuri's Observation Haki is the most impressive that we've seen so far but it's not out of the realm of possibility that Old Rayleigh's Haki could still be on par with his.  Lord Katakuri does have more versatility with his Devil Fruit Abilities.  Based on both them having comparable ranks but Prime Rayleigh being a league above Old Rayleigh and also Abilities I'm inclined to give Lord Katakuri an edge.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 6, 2017)

Old Rayleigh takes it with mid-high difficulty.


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## titantron91 (Oct 6, 2017)

Hype plus feats? Rayleigh

He has massive hype and he ain't sick like Whitebeard. Plus he has real feats vs. Admiral Kizaru


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## xmysticgohanx (Oct 7, 2017)

Rayleigh is above every fm


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## trance (Oct 7, 2017)

ray's not losing this


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## Furinji Saiga (Oct 7, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Rayleigh is above every fm



Thats Old Rayleigh

Imagine Prime Rayleigh!

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Oct 7, 2017)

Furinji Saiga said:


> Imagine Prime Rayleigh!



it was vaguely implied that Rayleigh in his prime is comparable to Whitebeard in his old age courtesy of our friendly neighborhood badass, Garp given those are the only frames of reference that make sense

even without that, he's solidly above an Admiral which again, p much gives him parity with Whitey at that point

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shanks (Oct 7, 2017)

Ray wins high dif.


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## Kyte (Oct 7, 2017)

why is that a thread, NF?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Rayleigh would literally pluck his guts out, lol


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 7, 2017)

Rayleigh mid difficulty. 

Far more impressive feats & portrayal so far. The guy was able to at least stop an Admiral for a while whilst there's a good chance Katakuri is going down to a wounded Luffy in the upcoming chapters.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yuki (Oct 7, 2017)

What's up with this mid dif shit...

People thought Luffy and Zoro could give mid dif to the admirals two arcs ago but now a FM is getting mid diffed by Old Ray? Wtf...



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Rayleigh mid difficulty.
> 
> Far more impressive feats & portrayal so far. The guy was able to at least stop an Admiral for a while whilst there's a good chance Katakuri is going down to a wounded Luffy in the upcoming chapters.



Yea... and next arc Luffy is taking down Kaido. o_O This is to show Luffy's progression. He went from barely being able to beat the weakest sweet commander with help to beating the strongest while wounded.

Kakakuri is in the same ballpark as MF Marco. Luffy's just that strong now...

Honestly how are we still at the point where everyone likes to downgrade every Luffy opp? "Well Luffy beat him so he can't be that strong." We should be passed this by now. >_> Next everyone will be saying Kaido is the weakest top tier. >_>

Honestly... BM is the weakest yonko, Kakakuri is now obviously considered the weakest FM... how the fk has Big Mom made if this far...

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## cry77 (Oct 7, 2017)

Rayleigh, if he goes for the kill straight away. With his lower stamina and Katakuris CoC I favor kata in a drawn out fight.


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## DA hawk (Oct 7, 2017)

Rayleigh.

Very high diff


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## Lord Stark (Oct 7, 2017)

Rayleigh high diff.  I think MF Garp>/=Old Rayleigh~Akainu>Fujitora+Green Bull~Marco>Katakuri


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## TheWiggian (Oct 7, 2017)

Rayleigh takes it with solid high diff.


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## Nox (Oct 7, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Lord Katakuri wins with high to extremely high difficulty in my opinion.  Both are First Mates but Old Rayleigh is likely around a good deal inferior compared to Prime Rayleigh since he has been inactive as a Pirate for multiple decades.  Furthermore Lord Katakuri's physical strength is superior to Gear 3rd Luffy's whose physical strength in turn is superior to Fujitora's.  From that I infer that Lord Katakuri's physical strength is likely superior to Old Rayleigh's from what we've seen so far.  Defensively Lord Katakuri not only has superior stamina but also superior evasive skills from what we've seen so far, another aspect that I give his character an edge in.  Rayleigh likely has superior combat ability as it seems fair to assume that he's one of the top swordsmen in the series.  Haki I have no idea.  Lord Katakuri's Observation Haki is the most impressive that we've seen so far but it's not out of the realm of possibility that Old Rayleigh's Haki could still be on par with his.  Lord Katakuri does have more versatility with his Devil Fruit Abilities.  Based on both them having comparable ranks but Prime Rayleigh being a league above Old Rayleigh and also Abilities I'm inclined to give Lord Katakuri an edge.



The old gambling drunk who hadn't been in a 1.5 year training stint Rayleigh kept Kizaru at bay & Admiral mentioned the possibility of preparations to face him. Unless Katakuri >> Marco, who Zaru had no issues attacking how exactly is this word stew valid?


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## Gohara (Oct 8, 2017)

Both Old Rayleigh and Marco have matched up on par with Kizaru with Marco at one point overpowering Kizaru so why would Lord Katakuri have to be significantly superior to Marco to match up on par with if not have a bit of an edge against Kizaru?


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## Kyte (Oct 8, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Both Old Rayleigh and Marco have matched up on par with Kizaru with Marco at one point overpowering Kizaru so why would Lord Katakuri have to be significantly superior to Marco to match up on par with if not have a bit of an edge against Kizaru?



dude, don't just go and casually limp a veteran like Rayleigh with Marco and Katakuri on your whim. Putting Kizaru as a standard is simply meaningless since the situations in which both Marco and Rayleigh encountered him were different, different in the sense that Rayleigh's objective was to halt him for a bit until the straw hats and Koma get on with their shit safely, and he accomplished the task with a smile on his face. On the other hand, the disadvantageous war environment required Marco pushing his powers to the extreme and still, he would match Kizaru but almost being a punching bad towards the end. So Rayleigh met his aim while Marco didn't, it gave us a hint of where the limits of Marco's power lies, but not for Rayleigh. In fact, it's safe to assume that Kizaru must have pushed his strength far more with Rayleigh than with Marco since it was an order from the Noble world unlike in the other situation where the war was already in their pocket.

Rayleigh didn't simply match Kizaru, he had no intentions of overpowering him to start with!

and if you're assuming that Katakuri can do it since Marco has done it, are you saying that all the Yonku commanders are on roughly on the same bar? so ... Luffy, by overpowering Cracker, are you saying that he's above Katakuri who's above Rayleigh?

NF, autism upgraded above the level it used to be on a couple of years ago

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Milkydean (Oct 8, 2017)

Yuki said:


> What's up with this mid dif shit...
> 
> People thought Luffy and Zoro could give mid dif to the admirals two arcs ago but now a FM is getting mid diffed by Old Ray? Wtf...
> 
> ...


Admiral Fanboys will go to any lengths to downplay the Yonkous or their crew.I mean,how the hell can they say Ray>Marco?We clearly saw Marco overpowering Kizaru in their clash and Kizaru needed help from VA to defeat him but apparently Ray who stalemated Kizaru is stronger than Marco.And why is Katakuri considered weaker than Marco?By that logic I can also render all of Kizaru's scaling useless.Kizaru shouldn't get any scaling from Aokiji and Akainu if Katakuri doesn't get scaling from Marco.


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## barreltheif (Oct 8, 2017)

Here is what we know.
- Old Rayleigh is at least reasonably close to the admirals.
- The admirals are at least reasonably close to Big Mom.
- Big Mom is massively stronger than Katakuri, to the point that she is "unstoppable" to Katakuri + the rest of her crew. A fellow sweet commander would rather let a crewmate die than try to stall Big Mom.
Conclusion: Rayleigh is much stronger than Katakuri. He will, at most, need mid diff to beat Katakuri.


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## Kyte (Oct 8, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Here is what we know.
> - Old Rayleigh is at least reasonably close to the admirals.
> - The admirals are at least reasonably close to Big Mom.
> - Big Mom is massively stronger than Katakuri, to the point that she is "unstoppable" to Katakuri + the rest of her crew. A fellow sweet commander would rather let a crewmate die than try to stall Big Mom.
> Conclusion: Rayleigh is much stronger than Katakuri. He will, at most, need mid diff to beat Katakuri.



not bad deductive reasoning


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 8, 2017)

Rayleigh high diff. I give it to him because he was *Roger FM* and while he is in old age now he can still go toe to toe with an Admiral but so did Kata in my opinion.


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## Nox (Oct 9, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Both Old Rayleigh and Marco have matched up on par with Kizaru with Marco at one point overpowering Kizaru so why would Lord Katakuri have to be significantly superior to Marco to match up on par with if not have a bit of an edge against Kizaru?



Read your own post:



> ...Lord Katakuri's physical strength is likely superior to Old Rayleigh's* from what we've seen so far*. Defensively Lord Katakuri not only has superior stamina but also _*superior evasive skills from what we've seen so far*_, another aspect that I give his character an edge in.



My question: What is the basis of the bold? This fight is in relation to Ray & Kata. *An inactive* out of practice Ray fought Kizaru & momentarily overwhelmed him; hence injury inflicted. You dubiously implied Katakuri > G3 Luffy > Fujitora. Still, Fujitora's strength relative to Kizaru is unknown. Next, *current* Ray was actively training Luffy (1.5 yrs). He's reacted to Kizaru (mid light form) & the later failed to wound him. Mochi has been effective against blunt trauma Ray is a swordsman = slashing dmg. Also his superior evasion has been against G2/G3 Luffy who was getting dicked by Cracker. Ray even in old age is above this level.


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## Gohara (Oct 9, 2017)

@ Kyte.

Are you suggesting that Old Rayleigh was holding back in that match up?  If so that's fine, I'm just trying to clarify what you're suggesting.  Either way nothing required Marco to go all out specifically in that part of the Arc.  I'm not necessarily suggesting that Marco was holding back in that match up but nothing makes it clear one way or the other.  Marco might have been holding back in that match up but he might not have been.  Who knows?  I agree that none of those points prove without question that Lord Katakuri is superior to Old Rayleigh.  I don't consider it to be factual.

Marco turning into a punching bag seems like an exaggeration but that doesn't really matter that much either way because that was while Marco was handcuffed with Seastone so of course Kizaru was able to have an edge during that part of the Arc.

You suggest that The World Government already had the War won at the beginning of that Arc but Sengoku suggests that the War can go either way multiple times throughout the Arc.

Am I suggesting that all Yonkou First Mates are around the same level?  For the most part that seems like a fair assumption so why not?  Prime Rayleigh and Beckman are so far the only First Mates that I consider to be special exceptions.  Kaidou's First Mate might or might not be superior to Lord Katakuri and Marco but who knows?

Lord Cracker seems to have a slight edge against Luffy at the beginning of The Totland Arc so I'm not sure what you mean about Luffy being > Lord Cracker and therefore also > Old Rayleigh and Lord Katakuri.  Furthermore it's possible to be inferior to Lord Katakuri but superior to Lord Cracker.  So I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at with that point.


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## Gohara (Oct 9, 2017)

@ Nox.

I can barely see what's bolded because of the font style that you're posting in but if I'm seeing it correctly:

I'm using Fujitora as a reference point because he's also an Admiral.  If Kizaru does turn out to be significantly physically superior to Fujitora then that could change that point somewhat but for now I'm assuming that most Admirals are relatively even in most aspects.

As for superior evasive skills, Old Rayleigh doesn't really have any feats in that aspect yet.  Old Rayleigh is pretty fast and presumably has great Observation Haki.  However Lord Katakuri is one of the faster characters that we've seen so far, has Logia like qualities, and also has amazing Observation Haki.  Even if Old Rayleigh is just as fast as or faster than Lord Katakuri that would still give Lord Katakuri an edge in the other aspects of evasive skills.  Old Rayleigh is obviously not a Logia and Lord Katakuri has the top Observation Haki feats in the series so far.  

I'm not sure what Luffy vs. Lord Cracker really has to do with the evasive skills that I'm referring to.

Also how does Marco come into play in any of your points?  You initially suggested that Lord Katakuri would have to be significantly superior to Marco in order for my points to stand.


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## Mylesime (Oct 9, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Here is what we know.
> - Old Rayleigh is at least reasonably close to the admirals.
> - The admirals are at least reasonably close to Big Mom.
> - Big Mom is massively stronger than Katakuri, to the point that she is "unstoppable" to Katakuri + the rest of her crew. A fellow sweet commander would rather let a crewmate die than try to stall Big Mom.
> Conclusion: Rayleigh is much stronger than Katakuri. He will, at most, need mid diff to beat Katakuri.



That's one of the most disingenuous argument used to downplay the commanders, and it appears a lot in this section.
I agree with your first two points, but do you really believe that a yonkou could solo his entire crew by himself?

  I mean at one point we have to accept what is shown by oda, these dudes are able to stalemate characters as strong as mihawk or admirals, it is clearly shown and stated that those top tiers (ao kiji, mihawk, kizaru) needs either a significant amount of time or a significant amount of help and avantage to deal quickly with commanders, mihawk stated it himself to vista. A this point it's pretty clear!
Jack attacked battleships despite sengoku and fujitora and not only managed to survive the raid but managed to sink two of the four ships.

  With context it's pretty clear where the challenge lies, *they don't want to kill their leader and main force, they're trying to stop her without hurting her or worse Killing her in the process*, *the situation is akin to what the strawhats where trying to do when facing monster chopper, with the difference being that big mom is currently one of the five or six most powerful being of one piece......*
There is no one able to solo an entire yonkou fleet/army by himself, the portrayal is clear, yonkou commanders can manage to clash with top tiers because they 're themselves top tiers while inferior (beckman, jack, marco). This is why doflamingo was shitting himelf thinking about what kaido and his calamities would do to him, kaido doesn't even need to travel himself to deal with doffy, one calamity is enough, two is overkill.
Luffy is currently able to do so with what he has shown so far (fujitora and big mom....) commanders can too, and have done it, especially the first mates. While the'yre inferior to Rayleigh in his prime and to what zoro will be, they're still comparable, to the same extent that yonkou are comparable to roger or luffy and blackbeard in their prime. Their bounties exceed for the most part the one billion mark.....it's ovious why.

  So in short, this fight could go either way, high or extreme difficulty.

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## barreltheif (Oct 9, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> I mean at one point we have to accept what is shown by oda, these dudes are able to stalemate characters as strong as mihawk or admirals, it is clearly shown and stated that those top tiers (ao kiji, mihawk, kizaru) needs either a significant amount of time or a significant amount of help and avantage to deal quickly with commanders, mihawk stated it himself to vista. A this point it's pretty clear!
> Jack attacked battleships despite sengoku and fujitora and not only managed to survive the raid but managed to sink two of the four ships.



I don't know what you mean by "stalemate". Yonkou commanders can fight admirals to some extent. There is no reason at all to think that they could give a high or extreme diff fight to an admiral or Rayleigh.



> With context it's pretty clear where the challenge lies, *they don't want to kill their leader and main force, they're trying to stop her without hurting her or worse Killing her in the process*, *the situation is akin to what the strawhats where trying to do when facing monster chopper, with the difference being that big mom is currently one of the five or six most powerful being of one piece......*


*
*
Incorrect. The Big Mom pirates do not try to stall Big Mom without killing her. They flee from her in terror. Smoothie ran away from Big Mom, letting her kill her crew members. Big Mom's crew cannot beat her. She is unstoppable to them.




> There is no one able to solo an entire yonkou fleet/army by himself, the portrayal is clear, yonkou commanders can manage to clash with top tiers because they 're themselves top tiers while inferior (beckman, jack, marco). This is why doflamingo was shitting himelf thinking about what kaido and his calamities would do to him, kaido doesn't even need to travel himself to deal with doffy, one calamity is enough, two is overkill. Luffy is currently able to do so with what he has shown so far (fujitora and big mom....) commanders can too, and have done it, especially the first mates. While the'yre inferior to Rayleigh in his prime and to what zoro will be, they're still comparable, to the same extent that yonkou are comparable to roger or luffy and blackbeard in their prime. Their bounties exceed for the most part the one billion mark.....it's ovious why. So in short, this fight could go either way, high or extreme difficulty.



Essentially nothing you said here was correct. Doflamingo said nothing about being afraid of the calamities. He showed fear at the wrath of Kaido. Cracker sure as fuck isn't comparable to prime Rayleigh or EoS Zoro.


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## Mylesime (Oct 9, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> I don't know what you mean by "stalemate". Yonkou commanders can fight admirals to some extent. There is no reason at all to think that they could give a high or extreme diff fight to an admiral or Rayleigh.



Not all of them? sure, but some of them may be able to give an extreme difficulty fight to admirals (beckman, shilliew, marco.....it's possible in my opinion), and there are even more commanders able to push them to high diff.
Let's agree to disagree , because none of us will be able to convince the other, but when i see oda drawing jack Attack several marine's ships, sinking some of them despite the presence of a former fleet admiral and an active admiral, i don't see it as the proof that this guy can't be a threat to admirals (their level varies too). Look , i'm not seeing these low diff win by the admirals that some of us are depicting.



barreltheif said:


> Incorrect. The Big Mom pirates do not try to stall Big Mom without killing her. They flee from her in terror. Smoothie ran away from Big Mom, letting her kill her crew members. Big Mom's crew cannot beat her. She is unstoppable to them.


What did jinbei do during her first tantrum at the begining of the arc?
He fed her with some  croque-en-bouche......the same guy who was not afraid to face her and her instant kill ability later on.
We do not see these elements the same way, here again, no need to carry on, as we will not be able to convince each other.
Personally, i don't believe that any character in the story, has ever, is actually, or will be able to solo an entire yonkou army by himself, pedro was no match to perspero a guy with a Bounty of 700 millions berries, daifuku, oven, compote, smoothie, katakuri, you truly believe that all these guys together could not put her down. At this point it just screams massive underestimation, or massive yonkou overestimation.



barreltheif said:


> Essentially nothing you said here was correct. Doflamingo said nothing about being afraid of the calamities. He showed fear at the wrath of Kaido. Cracker sure as fuck isn't comparable to prime Rayleigh or EoS Zoro.


Yeah and luffy has beaten doflamingo and craker alone as characters have stated.....


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## Soljah (Oct 9, 2017)

Imo Rayleigh wins handily.  My logic is Im guessig Kaido is >> Big mom don't know if the gap is huge but he was on the pirate kings crew top 3.  Gold Roger > Silver Rayleigh > Bronze Kaido >>>>>>>>>>>>Katakuri.  Now Shanks vs Rayleigh would be interesting


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## Sherlōck (Oct 10, 2017)

IMO Old Ray~Marco>Katakuri.

Old Rayleigh High difficulty.


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