# Gaara vs Raikage



## Hossaim (Jan 27, 2013)

Location: Madara vs 5 kage
Distance: 30 M
Knowledge: Cannon
Restrictions: None

Who wins this battle of kage?


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## bleakwinter (Jan 27, 2013)

*Gaara wins 8/10 (High-Difficulty)*

We know for a fact that Gaara's sand can react to Raikage's speed, in addition to being able to withstand his brute strength (1). However, if Ei's strength is at least similar to his father's, then he should have little difficulty breaking out of Gaara's sand entrapments (2). One major aspect that does swing the battle in favor of Gaara is his ability to fly/levitate. Ei has no method of striking an airborne target, something which I believe Gaara will take advantage of given the knowledge he is provided with. Additionally, the location favors Gaara, as he was able to manifest his sand avalanche in mere seconds in that same environmental setting (3).

This isn't to say that it will be easy for Gaara, as catching and entrapping someone as swift and durable as Ei is difficult to do. The only way Gaara could possibly lose is through attrition by virtue of the fact that he is virtually safe from Ei at all times by simply being suspended in air. To that respect, both fighters do have considerable amounts of stamina since Ei's Chakra was said to comparable to a tailed beast's, while Gaara was actually Jinchuuriki at one point. In terms of Chakra-level, I would crown Ei as having possessing the most Chakra/stamina out of the two, but for Ei to win by attrition, he would have to continually avoid Gaara's sand to the point of Gaara being too exhausted to stay airborne which I feel is unlikely to happen.​


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## Pein (Jan 27, 2013)

Garra should win, the sheer amount of sand he can produce should just overwhelm A. If A had something like nukite and he could just pierce through the sand he would have a better shot at winning. 

Overall Garra takes it with extreme difficult


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## Nikushimi (Jan 27, 2013)

You guys have gotta be kidding me. Raikage speedblitzes and snaps Gaara between his thighs like a skinny white twig boy.


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## Rocky (Jan 27, 2013)

Yeah I agree with Nikushimi. The Raikage's charged flicker was even too quick for the likes of Sharingan Sasuke to follow, who's far and above the young Kazekage in the reflex department. Yondaime removes Gaara's head without much effort as soon as max-power is used.


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## bleakwinter (Jan 27, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You guys have gotta be kidding me. Raikage speedblitzes and snaps Gaara between his thighs like a skinny white twig boy.





> Yeah I agree with Nikushimi. The Raikage's charged flicker was even too quick for the likes of Sharingan Sasuke to follow, who's far and above the young Kazekage in the reflex department. Yondaime removes Gaara's head without much effort as soon as max-power is used.


...Yet Gaara's sand canonically had no problem intercepting that same charged flicker before it struck Sasuke. I don't see why you think Gaara would get blitzed given that:

He knows the extent of Ei's speed at the start of the match (He would just go airborne from the start. Gaara's sand was fast enough to lift all the Kage from ground-to-air in one panel (1))
We have physical proof of Gaara's sand reacting to Raikage's speed at an even shorter distance than the one OP provided. It should have no problem reacting to Ei at 30 meters.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 27, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> ...Yet Gaara's sand canonically had no problem intercepting that same charged flicker before it struck Sasuke.



Gaara never, _ever_ intercepted A's Shunshin. He stopped A's Guillotine Drop when he was free-falling onto Sasuke's helpless Uchiha ass, but that's not the same thing.



> I don't see why you think Gaara would get blitzed given that:
> He knows the extent of Ei's speed at the start of the match (He would just go airborne from the start. Gaara's sand was fast enough to lift all the Kage from ground-to-air in one panel (1))



So what if he knows how fast A is? It's not going to make him fast enough to keep up and do anything about it.

He tries going airborne, guess what happens? Raikage spikes him to the ground like a volleyball. Then Gaara gets to feel what it's like to be buried 200m underground for a change.



> We have physical proof of Gaara's sand reacting to Raikage's speed at an even shorter distance than the one OP provided. It should have no problem reacting to Ei at 30 meters.



We also didn't see when Gaara moved his sand to intercept the Raikage, so there's a tiny issue with what you're considering the "start" of the feat.


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## katanalauncher (Jan 28, 2013)

In that location Gaara wins high difficulty.


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## bleakwinter (Jan 28, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Gaara never, _ever_ intercepted A's Shunshin. He stopped A's Guillotine Drop when he was free-falling onto Sasuke's helpless Uchiha ass, but that's not the same thing.



It's a pointless assertion regardless, as once Ei closes distance with his Gaara via Shunshin , he would have to follow-up with a guillotine drop, kick, punch, or some type of offense anyway, unless you think he's performing Shunshin just for the sake of doing it. To that regard, I've already shown you that Gaara's speed would be able to react to such an attack. 



> So what if he knows how fast A is? It's not going to make him fast enough to keep up and do anything about it.


Ei would have to use his full Shunshin speed from the beginning for Gaara's sand to have any problem's intercepting his blows. Anything less than his full speed wouldn't suffice at all, as we've seen Juugo be quick enough to form a shield to block his punch, as well as Suigetsu's blocking his downward arm thrust with his cleaver. As far as I'm concerned, Ei has only used his Shunshin in only a few discreet cases.



> He tries going airborne, guess what happens? Raikage spikes him to the ground like a volleyball. Then Gaara gets to feel what it's like to be buried 200m underground for a change.


Doubtful. Despite his speed, Ei can be easily caught off guard with assaults from behind (Or from some other direction that he cannot see from) (1). Gaara conveniently possesses one of those attacks (2), which caught three of Kage off guard. It may not permanently trap him, but that would certainly allot Gaara the time needed to go airborne and thus be out of reach (Which he was able to do in one panel). 



> We also didn't see when Gaara moved his sand to intercept the Raikage, so there's a tiny issue with what you're considering the "start" of the feat.



That isn't a pertinent detail. There was a set window of time between when Ei initiated his kick and when Ei almost landed it. Gaara's sand was fast enough to fit into this window of time. You could give him 2 seconds to prepare his sand to react to the kick. You could alternatively give his sand 500 years to block to the kick.  Unless the sand possesses sufficient speed, it wouldn't be able to do so in time in either of those example cases I've given. Starting time doesn't matter, speed does.


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## raizen28 (Jan 29, 2013)

How the heck is Raikage defeating Gaara in the Desert Airborne in a Sand Dome.

Theyre are sitting ducks. The entire field is Gaara's weapon. Speed wont matter when Gaara goes to the sky and Gaara still has his sand shield and Sand Armor for Defense.


Gaara takes this no doubt about it.
 Everything I wouldve said, bleakwinter already soloed with it.
I had to just say something basic at least.


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## PDQ (Jan 29, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> We know for a fact that Gaara's sand can react to Raikage's speed, in addition to being able to withstand his brute strength (1).


As someone said, he was freefalling.  Your falling speed is limited to the acceleration of gravity which is height dependent.  The only way he could've sped up his fall is if he pressed against the ceiling, which he wasn't shown doing.  He hasn't been shown intercepting A's punch or kick, which aren't free fall attacks and have Shunshin speed behind them.  Free fall only refers to downward attacks where you're falling down on someone.

We can also see in-manga how slow it is by the fact that Sasuke could form Amaterasu while he was falling, while earlier, Raikage was able to dodge it completely. 

Also, interfering with an attack between two people is different from avoiding one aimed at you.  Even Sakura almost managed to jump between Sasuke' Chidori and Naruto's Rasengan, who are each much faster, at least Sasuke at the time.

A also has the offensive advantage of having Raiton, which should be able to cut through sand, which is ultimately made of earth.  Should he use it in a cutting fashion.  But blocking his leg and Amaterasu is pretty impressive.



That being said, Gaara probably wins because A hasn't shown any long range attacks and Gaara can fly, although he'd have to do it very high since A can jump very high.  Offensively, speed isn't a problem for someone who can do this


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## Frostey (Jan 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You guys have gotta be kidding me. Raikage speedblitzes and snaps Gaara between his thighs like a skinny white twig boy.



Basically all that needs to be said. 

Even if Gaara can fly, Ei could just jump using Lightning Armour. It increases not only speed, but physical power, and after he finally catches Gaara, it would only be a matter of time before he's hit with Guillotine Drop and ultimately defeated. 

I would give Gaara more credit but this is a horrible match up against him. Ei is simply to fast for his long range attacks to hit him. And it's been show several times of Gaara's sand being especially week to overwhelming speed.


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## PDQ (Jan 29, 2013)

Frostey said:


> Even if Gaara can fly, Ei could just jump using Lightning Armour.



Jumping is limited in height, flying isn't.  Furthermore, jumping, you can't change directions in midair(unless you have a kage bunshin to step off of which A hasn't shown any sort of bunshin) so without a ranged attack, Gaara could simply move a few feet to the side as he's jumping and he'll be out of range.

If A had a bunshin to maneuver in midair or long range attacks or Gaara couldn't fly, Gaara would probably be toast.



> And it's been show several times of Gaara's sand being especially week to overwhelming speed.


Unless he puts his shield to cover all sides
Muki Tensei


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## Frostey (Jan 29, 2013)

PDQ said:


> Jumping is limited in height, flying isn't.  Furthermore, jumping, you can't change directions in midair(unless you have a kage bunshin to step off of which A hasn't shown any sort of bunshin) so without a ranged attack, Gaara could simply move a few feet to the side as he's jumping and he'll be out of range.
> 
> If A had a bunshin to maneuver in midair or long range attacks or Gaara couldn't fly, Gaara would probably be toast.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, I agree with most things you said here, but Ei is simply to fast for Gaara to casually step aside and avoid his attacks. Even if it is linear, Gaara just doesn't have the physical feats or reaction time.


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## Amaterasu80 (Jan 30, 2013)

Raiton jutsu can cut through Earth i.e Gaara's sand, cant it.

I also dont believe Gaara is fast enough for A, Gaara's reaction time is probably too slow.

Even if Gaara hid inside the ball I doubt someone as strong as the Raikage couldnt break it, especially with Lightning Armour. 

Gaara doesnt match up well with A, and I think he loses this one.


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## Rocky (Jan 30, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> It's a pointless assertion regardless, as once Ei closes distance with his Gaara via Shunshin , he would have to follow-up with a guillotine drop, kick, punch, or some type of offense anyway, unless you think he's performing Shunshin just for the sake of doing it. To that regard, I've already shown you that Gaara's speed would be able to react to such an attack.



The Raikage has shown he does _not_ need to cancel his Shunshin to utilize basic punches & kicks. In all honesty, that would defeat the purpose by giving the opponent time to react. The only time Ei has stopped his flicker mid-strike is when he had to consider attacking through the Sauce's _Enton-Barrier_ Susano'o.



> Ei would have to use his full Shunshin speed from the beginning for Gaara's sand to have any problem's intercepting his blows. Anything less than his full speed wouldn't suffice at all, as we've seen Juugo be quick enough to form a shield to block his punch, as well as Suigetsu's blocking his downward arm thrust with his cleaver. As far as I'm concerned, Ei has only used his Shunshin in only a few discreet cases.


You played the knowledge card with Gaara, claiming he would take to the skies immediately knowing how dangerous Ei really is. Is it _not_ reasonable to assume that The Raikage, with nearly full knowledge himself, would opt for Shunshin to end this match as early as possible? Why would Ei, being the faster & more reflexive of the two *by far*, let Gaara bury him in a desert of sand? We've seen a similar instance when Ei fought Minato.



> Doubtful. Despite his speed, Ei can be easily caught off guard with assaults from behind (Or from some other direction that he cannot see from) (1). Gaara conveniently possesses one of those attacks (2), which caught three of Kage off guard. It may not permanently trap him, but that would certainly allot Gaara the time needed to go airborne and thus be out of reach (Which he was able to do in one panel).


You overlook an important detail. Ei was distracted by Tsunade's condition. That was made obvious by the "Hokage!" cry, and Madara simply took advantage of a stationary Raikage with his attention diverted. The circumstances are not similar here. It's Gaara vs. Ei, man vs. man. There are no distractions here for Gaara to capitalize on, meaning his chances of hitting Ei with that move are....quite low.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 31, 2013)

Surrounded in a shroud of lightning, the beast utilizes the element wheel to excuse himself out of any possible death via sand. 

Directly after Gaara is blitzed by the one-step 30m Madara style shunshin already drawn in the manga for us. Unless Gaara possesses a sharingan to react, a painless immortal zombie body to resist or a Susano to absorb the drop force let's all agree that punch shatters every bone in Gaara's body and he dies of starvation several days later whilst still bodily implanted in the boulder he was subsequently punched into.

This debate is ridiculous. I've engaged in debates where the likes of war arc Kakashi from 70m was adamantly argued to be blitzed by V2 A by well known debaters with Kamui and knowledge. Gaara? Really?


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## Alita (Jan 31, 2013)

4th Raikage is overrated IMO. Yeah he's fast but his other stats arn't all that impressive in comparison to the other kages. 

And I definately don't see him blitzing gaara from 30 meters before he can react and get sand up. His sand was also able to tank a leg drop from raikage too so  raikage will have a difficult time trying to penetrate through it. Gaara also has big advantages over raikage in range and versatility. He could drop a giant sand wave over the whole battlefield and drown the raikage in sand. Then he could drag raikage 200 meters below the earth and let him suffocate to death. With enough sand moves like desert coffin and desert funeral can big threats to raikage as well. 

I see gaara taking this more often than not with mid difficulty.


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## Shinryu (Feb 1, 2013)

Gaara can block A's attacks with his sand shield and spawn a desert in seconds he stomps


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## Bonly (Feb 1, 2013)

Location really favors Gaara here. Welp it depends if A can cross 30 meters with in max powered Shunshin and blitz Gaara. If so then he would win more times then not. If not Gaara can easily float up high and spam large amounts of sand until A is buried and the Gaara could crush him.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

Bonly said:


> If not Gaara can easily float up high and spam large amounts of sand until A is buried and the Gaara could crush him.



Gaara attempting to fly here ends in him getting _swatted_ back down to the ground.


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## Bonly (Feb 1, 2013)

Rocky915 said:


> Gaara attempting to fly here ends in him getting _swatted_ back down to the ground.



And why can't Gaara move around on the sand in the air?


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

Bonly said:


> And why can't Gaara move around on the sand in the air?



Because Gaara's sand isn't faster than Ei's punches.


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## Bonly (Feb 1, 2013)

Rocky915 said:


> Because Gaara's sand isn't faster than Ei's punches.



So your saying Gaara's sand won't be able to move out of the way when Gaara will clearly be able to see A coming at him which gives him time to react faster as if its un expected when A is still on the ground and has to jump?


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

Bonly said:


> So your saying Gaara's sand won't be able to move out of the way when Gaara will clearly be able to see A coming at him which gives him time to react faster as if its un expected when A is still on the ground and has to jump?



RM Naruto, who is _much_ more reflexive than Gaara, didn't notice Ei's jump until they were _face to face._ That's not enough time to move. 

Why would you automatically assume it takes one of the physically strongest & quickest Shinobi in the verse a decent amount of time to get in the air?


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## Bonly (Feb 1, 2013)

Rocky915 said:


> RM Naruto, who is _much_ more reflexive than Gaara, didn't notice Ei's jump until they were _face to face._ That's not enough time to move.
> 
> Why would you automatically assume it takes one of the physically strongest & quickest Shinobi in the verse a decent amount of time to get in the air?



And you show me Naruto looking down at A and that happening where Gaara would be able to here? Or can you show me Naruto jumping and expecting A to not pop up?

Why do you automatically assume Gaara who has defense can tank A's attack won't be able to here and he will just be sent flying down?


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2013)

Bonly said:


> And you show me Naruto looking down at A and that happening where Gaara would be able to here? Or can you show me Naruto jumping and expecting A to not pop up?
> 
> Why do you automatically assume Gaara who has defense can tank A's attack won't be able to here and he will just be sent flying down?



Um, reword that if you will. 

If you're asking why Gaara's auto-defense can't block Ei's attacks, it's because Ei has the strength to damage Susano'o, and _speed_ has been displayed as a way around Gaara's Auto-defense before.


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## Bonly (Feb 1, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Um, reword that if you will.
> 
> If you're asking why Gaara's auto-defense can't block Ei's attacks, it's because Ei has the strength to damage Susano'o, and _speed_ has been displayed as a way around Gaara's Auto-defense before.



Why,because im black 

Gaara's sand has blocked attacks from 4 Susanoo attacks successful and  A only managed to break a small piece of the rib cage. I don't think a punch would be enough to get through it. And im not sure how well his speed will do to get around it in the air.


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## Ersa (Feb 1, 2013)

V2 A blitzes and smashes Gaara's face in.

Unless Gaara got some really good reactions I must be missing something


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## Shinryu (Feb 1, 2013)

Gaara's sand can react to Amaterasu


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 3, 2013)

ChaosX7 said:


> Gaara's sand can react to Amaterasu



i thought it reacted to  Kagutsuchi


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## Tobirama Uchiha (May 10, 2016)

Gaara's sand couldn't defend him from Lee and Raikage is much faster and stronger than Lee...
Easy win Raikage


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## Rocky (May 10, 2016)

Tobirama Uchiha is off to a brilliant start in the BD.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tobirama Uchiha (May 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama Uchiha is off to a brilliant start in the BD.


BD?


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## cctr1 (May 10, 2016)

Tobirama Uchiha said:


> BD?


 Battledome he means


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## hbcaptain (May 10, 2016)

Is Gaara as reflexive as Minato ? Obiously not .

Is the automatic sans really instaneous ? Obivously not , and we all know how it work :
1-detect the ennemy's move 
2-waiting 36000 hours until P1 Sasuke and Lee touch Gaara's corps .
3-Activate .

C/C : Raikage fodderstomps once he got V2 cloak , Gaara will never react to such a speed , Ei is simply too fast .


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## Skywalker (May 11, 2016)

Tobirama Uchiha said:


> Gaara's sand couldn't defend him from Lee and Raikage is much faster and stronger than Lee...
> Easy win Raikage


That flawless ABC logic.


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## wooly Eullerex (May 11, 2016)

raikage wins because he has RnY,  making him absolutely invulnerable to sand ninjutsu


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2016)

This is a repeat of Gaara vs lee
Sadly unlikely lee baby shit punches
A caves Gaara skull in
Only to realise it's a clone feint 
And then Gaara Buries Him


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## ARGUS (May 11, 2016)

Gaara wins this, mid/high diff. 

 -- Unless Ay immediately starts off in V2 right off the bat, then iniital blitz just gets coutnered by sand defense. Ay lacks the firepower to just one shot gaaras defense and get him right in one hit. Especially when even V3 susanoos slash was tanked by a small amount of gaaras sand. No diff. Ays hit wont even scratch his defense. Not a chance. 

 -- Blitz gets countered by defense and then Gaara gains flight and changes the entire terrain with his sand. Speed isnt going to let him evade an entire desert worth of sand, and there is no chance  which is *far* above Ays physical strength. 

 -- Ay then gets restrained by sand and then gets squeezed to death.


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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

Gaara would probably win
His sand is pretty tanky even against Raikages strikes


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## Rocky (May 11, 2016)

If Gaara couldn't catch Jōki Bōi in this location, he is not catching Raikage. This is a Rock Lee vs. Gaara repeat, only Ay's punches can actually kill Gaara.


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## Saru (May 11, 2016)

Three years later and people still think that one Kage could "stomp" another? 

Neither A nor Gaara are so much stronger than their opponent that one could stomp the other.

Gaara has the locational advantage, but he has no hope of catching A with Desert Sand alone, as A is logically much faster than Gengetsu's Joki Boi (which Gaara couldn't catch with his sand). On the other hand, Gaara should certainly be able to make it into the sky from a reasonable starting distance, and even if A were to try to knock Gaara out of the sky, Gaara's Gourd Sand should be able to not only block A's strike but catch Gaara as he falls. As soon as Gaara's in the air, he'll be in control of the pace of the match. Gaara can likely obstruct A's LOS with Desert Sand, then make Suna Bunshin to feint him, and a brief distraction is all that Gaara would need to restrain A. That said, A's speed and reflexes are demonstrably better than his father's, so what worked on Sandaime isn't necessarily going to work on Yondaime. If this location were anywhere but the desert, I would probably favor A, but Gaara has so much sand to work with here that A shouldn't be able to sidestep all of Gaara's offensive strategies.

Gaara wins with high difficulty IMO.


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## Empathy (May 11, 2016)

If Gaara hits A with one of these, [1] [2] what exactly can A do? If the location were anything besides a desert, then I think Gaara would lose, Otherwise, Gaara buries him with all the land at A's feet, and seals him if he doesn't die right away.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> Three years later and people still think that one Kage could "stomp" another?
> 
> Neither A nor Gaara are so much stronger than their opponent that one could stomp the other.



If you define difficulty by time taken & energy expended, then yeah, it happens. Kabuto vs. Sasuke, Minato vs. Obito, Killer Bee vs. Sasuke, etc. Kabuto one-paneled Sasuke with Hakugeki, Minato bamflashed Obito with Hiraishin after only two exchanges, and Base Bee dispatched Sasuke with Acrobat in between rhymes. Oh yeah, Itachi vs. Deidara/Orochimaru happened too. 



Empathy said:


> If Gaara hits A with one of these, [1] [2] what exactly can A do?



Dodge it like Jōki Bōi or Deidara...


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## Empathy (May 11, 2016)

A can't fly (Gaara also wasn't fighting with killing intent against Deidara), and Gaara wasn't using that volume of sand to contain _Joki Boi_.


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## Saru (May 11, 2016)

What does volume of sand have to do with speed?

@Empathy

Just because Gaara moves more of it doesn't mean it's any faster than the amount of sand Gaara used against Jouki Boi.



Rocky said:


> If you define difficulty by time taken & energy expended, then yeah, it happens. Kabuto vs. Sasuke, Minato vs. Obito, Killer Bee vs. Sasuke, etc. Kabuto one-paneled Sasuke with Hakugeki, Minato bamflashed Obito with Hiraishin after only two exchanges, and Base Bee dispatched Sasuke with Acrobat in between rhymes. Oh yeah, Itachi vs. Deidara/Orochimaru happened too.



Neither Sasuke nor Kabuto were fighting with killer intent, and Amaterasu is faster than Hakugeki.

The Obito that Minato fought either didn't have or simply didn't resort to Izanagi, and he lacked crucial knowledge on Hiraishin (and I cringe every time I consider that fact given Obito's background) as well. The result would probably be the same if they fought again, but Minato would have to work harder for it.

Killer B was easily a tier or two above the Sasuke he fought (no CS durability and stat enhancements, no Susano'o or Enton, stumbling upon Amaterasu, still wounded from the battle with Itachi, etc.), so in that case a stomp was warranted due to the difference in strength.

Itachi is just that far above Orochimaru and Deidara (at least a tier IMO). If A was on a different level than Gaara, I would agree with you, but the gap between those two is smaller than the gap between Orochimaru and Itachi (by Orochimaru's own admission, feats, etc.).

A low-diff win simply would never happen in Kishimoto's manga between any of the Gokage IMO.


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## Empathy (May 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> What does volume of sand have to do with speed?
> 
> @Empathy
> 
> Just because Gaara moves more of it doesn't mean it's any faster than the amount of sand Gaara used against Jouki Boi.



Area-of-effect. If Gaara's moving a desert or village's size of sand around, it's just harder to avoid due to being such a large mass. Deidara already pointed out a speed disparity between Gaara's gourd sand, and the sand he grinds up. Obviously, A would avoid the small amount Gaara was using to try and catch _Joki Boi_. His non-gourd sand is slower and he was using small amounts of sand.


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## Saru (May 11, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Area-of-effect. If Gaara's moving a desert or village's size of sand around, it's just harder to avoid due to such a large mass. Deidara already pointed a speed disparity between Gaara's gourd sand, and the sand he grinds up. Obviously, A would avoid the small amount Gaara was using to try and catch _Joki Boi_. His non-gourd sand is slower and he was using small amounts of sand.



You sort of dodged my point. If the speed of Gaara's Desert Sand isn't enough to catch A, then it's not fast enough to catch A no matter how much of it he moves. So I disagree with what you're suggesting.

If Gaara uses a huge amount of sand, not only will it be harder for Gaara to move it, potentially making it slower, it will give A more time to run away.

For example, the waves of Desert Sand Gaara was using against Jouki Boi had human-sized crests, yes?

The waves of Desert Sand Gaara was using against Deidara had village-sized crests, which would take more time for Gaara raise (and move back downward). A can run away farther in that time. There are no "AoE" advantages to be had against superior movement speed.


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2016)

Empathy said:


> A can't fly (Gaara also wasn't fighting with killing intent against Deidara), and Gaara wasn't using that volume of sand to contain _Joki Boi_.



Raikage's not completely helpless.

He can still jump and under this location, there's plenty of platforms for Raikage to jump to which can help him get within range of Gaara.

I agree, Gaara can use flight, but that's simply out of context. He really never flew at distances where his opponent could never reach him.


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## Empathy (May 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> You sort of dodged my point. If the speed of Gaara's Desert Sand isn't enough to catch A, then it's not fast enough to catch A no matter how much of it he moves. So I disagree with what you're suggesting.
> 
> If Gaara uses a huge amount of sand, not only will it be harder for Gaara to move it, potentially making it slower, it will give A more time to run away.
> 
> ...



I addressed your question directly: "_What does volume of sand have to do with speed?" _The answer is area-of-effect. Just because A can easily move out of the way of a handful of Gaara's desert sand, doesn't mean he'll have as easy of a time with a tsunami's worth. Your saying that Gaara's sand will move more sluggishly the greater the amount he tries to move isn't really supported by anything at all. Gaara instantly shielded his village from _C3 _the moment it exploded, and Deidara only ever noted a disparity between Gaara's gourd sand and the rest of the desert; not based on the larger and smaller quantities (which were still quite quite fast). He also used similar quantities to stop Madara's meteor. The tidal wave used on the Edo Kages wasn't slow by any means either, and was actually coming in quite fast. Moving the giant quantities has never been stated or implied to affect the speed Gaara can do it with (or else it'd all be superfluous); it just takes a great toll on his stamina.

He was visibly exhausted after having to block _C3_, visibly exhausted when fighting Gengetsu after already having fought Rasa, and Rasa thought that Gaara's initial tidal wave was the work of the Ichibi, meaning it obviously required chakra similar to a bijuu to infuse that much into sand over such a wide scale. Gaara would only have to do it once to kill A though, and just once never seemed to bother him much. I'm not really speaking about A avoiding an incoming sand tsunami from hundreds of meters away. With no villagers and no fellow shinobi alliance, Gaara has no reason to attack with a desert starting from miles away like he did with Deidara or the Edo Kages, unless the starting distance was miles away. Gaara can literally lift and manipulate the entire desert A's standing on. A has no feats of clearing an entire desert or village instantly, so he's not avoiding all the land around him being lifted, which Gaara can do at a moment's notice. Super-speed is a great ability for avoiding things, but it's useless if A has no footing to run fast on, and Gaara controls the very ground he walks upon.



UchihaX28 said:


> Raikage's not completely helpless.
> 
> He can still jump and under this location, there's plenty of platforms for Raikage to jump to which can help him get within range of Gaara.
> 
> I agree, Gaara can use flight, but that's simply out of context. He really never flew at distances where his opponent could never reach him.



I was talking about Deidara's usage of flight, not Gaara's, which allowed him to evade in three-dimensions as opposed to two. When Gaara controls the entire land, Deidara had the advantage of being able to flee to the sky (and again, Gaara wasn't trying to kill Deidara). A using the small rock formations for safe footing wouldn't prevent the entire desert from swallowing him and the rocks. He also can't evade in mid-air if he jumps, nor can he jump higher than Gaara can raise his desert.


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## Saru (May 12, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Just because A can easily move out of the way of a handful of Gaara's desert sand, doesn't mean he'll have as easy of a time with a tsunami's worth.



I didn't say Gaara moving more sand wouldn't increase the difficulty A would have in avoiding it; I just said that it would lead to the same outcome.




> Your saying that Gaara's sand will move more sluggishly the greater the amount he tries to move isn't really supported by anything at all.



Actually, it is.



> Gaara instantly shielded his village from _C3 _the moment it exploded, and Deidara only ever noted a disparity between Gaara's gourd sand and the rest of the desert; not based on the larger and smaller quantities (which were still quite quite fast).



Deidara noting the difference in speed between tossing around small amounts of sand and really big amounts of sand would be as unnecessary as noting a difference in speed between a man picking up a small rock and a very large boulder. One quite logically requires more effort to lift, and the human body does not lift a small object with same efficiency as it would a large one. It's the same with Gaara's Desert Sand.



> He also used similar quantities to stop Madara's meteor. The tidal wave used on the Edo Kages wasn't slow by any means either, and was actually coming in quite fast.



This sand was moved off-panel, and it cannot compare to the Raikage, who moves at speeds faster than Amaterasu.



> Moving the giant quantities has never been stated or implied to affect the speed Gaara can do it with *(or else it'd all be superfluous)*; it just takes a great toll on his stamina.



I already refuted the first part of that statement, and while the second part is true, the bolded is not. Gaara's inability to move large amounts of Desert Sand with the same efficiency as he can smaller ones does not make using larger amounts of sand a useless ability, because with larger amounts of sand, Gaara can apply a greater amount of force. In addition, large amounts of Desert Sand give Gaara the ability to stealthily surround his opponents with sand as he did to Deidara. There are obvious advantages that come with using larger amounts of sand, but none of them involve speed (which is the key factor in this particular matchup).



> Gaara can literally lift and manipulate the entire desert A's standing on.



What do you mean by this? Gaara can only manipulate so much sand at one time. He has the _potential_ to move every grain of sand in the desert, but he cannot move all of those grains of sand at once. That would be a rather wild exaggeration of Gaara's abilities. Therefore, A wouldn't need feats of clearing an entire desert of sand, because Gaara cannot move an entire desert of sand at one time.



> Super-speed is a great ability for avoiding things, but it's useless if A has no footing to run fast on, and *Gaara controls the very ground he walks upon*.



The bolded statement is misleading and either overly vague or not entirely accurate. Gaara can control a _*portion*_ of the ground that A walks upon, but he's not lifting the entire desert into the sky. Additionally, the speed at which A moves is such that the "portion of the ground" that he's standing on would be rapidly changing. If Gaara could truly move sand in the way that you suggest, he would have sunken all of Madara's Susano'o (but that obviously didn't happen).


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2016)

@Saru 
You make truly valid points 
If Gaara could manipulate all the sand in the desert at once how on earth did jouki boy have such an easy time same for Madara susanoo

However A cannot avoid Gaara sand simply using speed as Gaara can attack with sand rain from the top over a decent area while attacking from below 

A method of fighting is simply too simple for Gaara not to lure him into attacking a clone 

At which point the sand pyramid would keep him sealed or rather should keep him sealed 

I don't see Gaara burying him like some imply or A having an easy time smacking Gaara around 

It would be a repeat of jouki boy vs Gaara . Where A gets feinted and ultimately looses due to that fact

Reactions: Agree 1


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