# WHY DEIDARA IS STRONGER THAN KISAME : AN IN DEPTH ANALYSIS



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

@Troyse22
I've laid out my argument piece by piece, and even have manga scans to support my argument. Whenever there is an unbeatable argument in front of your face, you just say that you've addressed all of the other sides points and that our argument is garbage, and that you're out of here.

How is this the case? In the Deidara vs Kisame thread, you had explanations placed in front of you, you just said "Oh, there's too much garbage in this thread, I'm out of here." The same happened in the Kisame vs Pain PM debate, many people can back this up for me.

I'm creating another thread for this, you have no excuse.
Are you going to :

*a). Concede your argument*
*b). Attempt to meme your way out of this (which is a concession)*
*c). Counter each and all of my points in great detail*

Anything other than Choice C will be accepted as a concession. I'm going to state the conditions and location of the battle, just for clarity.


> *Location : *Sannin Deadlock
> *Starting Distance : *60m
> *Knowledge : *Manga
> *Mindset : *IC
> ...



Without further ado, let's get into the essay, Izaya style. 
_______________
​In this scenario, Deidara will take to the skies, especially with the stipulation that he's starting with his bird. Saying he won't is a classic example of bias, especially since he's taken to the skies in all his fights regardless of whether the opponent was capable of flight : he did so against Gaara, and also against Sasuke before he went into CS2. [1][2] 

It's also not like Deidara can't hold his own against Kisame in CQC. He was able to avoid Naruto and replace himself with a clay clone before he got struck by a Rasengan, so he could easily outperform Kisame in clone feints, allowing him to take down Kisame in taijutsu.  He's reacted to and dodged Hebi Sasuke's speed blitz which is miles beyond in speed than anything Kisame's showcased, so he'll have no problem reacting to and dodging Samehada.  

Now, I agree, Kisame is stronger than Deidara in taijutsu, but it's purely out of bias to say that Deidara can't hold his own in CQC for quite a while.

He doesn't even need to, being IC dictates that he hops onto his clay bird and starts soaring in the skies, raining literal death onto Kisame. From there, Kisame's Suitons are easily avoided, while Deidara spams C1. C1 itself (not C2) has the ability to home in on it's target, as stated by Gaara's own mouth.  These are the same bombs that killed three people instantly , and knocked out the Three Tails . With their homing on ability, Kisame can't dodge it. So what is his other choice? 

Oh, right, he doesn't have one. He can choose to tank it, but it'll easily kill him, considering it knocked out the Three Tails, scan above. Without any free bijuu chakra from the second strongest tailed beast, what suggests that he can tank it and heal it? Oh right, nothing outside of comical bias. Don't play the "He tanked Hirudora" card.

First off, he didn't tank shit. He was left in a sniveling, heaping mess of fried fish. He had only the energy to twitch and move his finger before he got knocked out. Not sure how that translates to him being 100% and still being fresh and ready to fight.

Second off, explosions and a beam of air pressure are massively different. Hirudora is brute force, Deidara's clay bombs are lethal and designed to kill, they're are explosions after all. Not saying one is stronger than the other. Just that they're massively different.

This is literally neg diff for Deidara, seeing as how he's using his most basic technique. Since they've showed the ability to knock out the 3 Tails and kill people instantly, without 6 freaking bijuu tails of chakra, he's not going to heal from them, it's been stated that he needs chakra to steal for his durability.  Samehada can't absorb the chakra inside C1, that's fucking ridiculous, they'll explode and kill Samehada and Kisame. Suitons won't do shit against C1, they might push it back, but can Kisame form the necessary hand seals and blow out a Suiton before Deidara can drop a couple balls of clay? Nope, I didn't think so.

Now let's say Kisame somehow survives, which is the scenario you were suggesting in the other thread's debate. So somehow, Kisame survives a spam of C1 that rocked Turtle Island, damaged the turtle, and was said to be like "the heaven and earth switching places", and even mistaken for an earthquake [9] without any free bijuu chakra. This is the scenario you're implying, do you see how comically biased this is?

Let's say this nigh impossible scenario happens, and somehow, Kisame spews out Waterdome.

Now let's remember, this Waterdome is going to be like an ant in size compared to the one used against Bee, since this time, he doesn't have 6 Tails of chakra from the second strongest bijuu in existence, his Waterdome is going to be much smaller. Nothing indicates that it'll be the same size - oh, wait, except for extreme bias. From there, Deidara is literally going shit all over Kisame. He can simply drop C1 fish down, which has the ability to knock out the 3 Tails [10], it's going to fuck Kisame up, especially multiple of them, without free bijuu chakra, he's dead. 

Now let's say, somehow, Kisame survives an explosion that can insta kill people and knocked out the 3 Tails and allowed someone of the power level of Goofball Tobi to capture the 3 Tails. Meanwhile Kisame is being negged by C1 fish, Deidara can prep C3, a village busting explosion, which will be much stronger than a simple C1 bomb that capsized an entire island. [11] This will dispel the ant sized Waterdome w/o bijuu chakra, and literally vaporize Kisame. Show me some scans of Kisame tanking things on bijuu damaging levels without a freaking coat of chakra to eat. Exactly. C3 negs Waterdome, and turns Kisame into blue dust.

Another option, is to drop C4 Garuda onto Waterdome, the sheer size of it will simply dispel the much smaller dome than when he fought KB. C4 Garuda was able to clear an entire forest while expanding [12], so logic dictates that it will be easily able to dispel a smaller Waterdome. If it gets to this point, which as I've proved is going to be nigh impossible, it's going to be high diff at most, since Deidara is using his most powerful technique.

INB4 Deidara needs prep for C3, as WS pointed out, he can dodge all of Kisame's attacks on his bird, he has all the time in the world to prep a simple clay bomb.

________________
​
That moment when you call my argument garbage when everything I've said in this essay is 100% supported by the manga.
​I'm going to tag some relatively unbiased posters to see what they think, and if they believe my essay.

@UchihaX28
@HandfullofNaruto
@emanthespriggan1234
@cctr9
@WorldsStrongest

________________​Like I said, you now have three options.

*a). Concede your argument*
*b). Attempt to meme your way out of this (which is a concession)*
*c). Counter each and all of my points in great detail*

Alright @Troyse22, got anything else?

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

I think Deidara is equal to Kisame under normal circumstances, but Deidara is simply far too dangerous for Kisame given the aerial advantage he possesses and the fact that explosions are more potent underwater.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I think Deidara is equal to Kisame under normal circumstances, but Deidara is simply far too dangerous for Kisame given the aerial advantage he possesses and the fact that explosions are more potent underwater.


I also explained how he could win under normal circumstances, it also surprises me that you could have read the whole thing in like 2 minutes. 

He simply holds off Kisame in taijutsu, he can board his bird really quickly if he plays it smart. I proved all this. Read below for the specific part.


> It's also not like Deidara can't hold his own against Kisame in CQC. He was able to avoid Naruto and replace himself with a clay clone before he got struck by a Rasengan, so he could easily outperform Kisame in clone feints, allowing him to take down Kisame in taijutsu.  He's reacted to and dodged Hebi Sasuke's speed blitz which is miles beyond in speed than anything Kisame's showcased, so he'll have no problem reacting to and dodging Samehada.
> 
> Now, I agree, Kisame is stronger than Deidara in taijutsu, but it's purely out of bias to say that Deidara can't hold his own in CQC for quite a while.
> 
> He doesn't even need to, being IC dictates that he hops onto his clay bird and starts soaring in the skies, raining literal death onto Kisame. From there, Kisame's Suitons are easily avoided, while Deidara spams C1. C1 itself (not C2) has the ability to home in on it's target, as stated by Gaara's own mouth.  These are the same bombs that killed three people instantly , and knocked out the Three Tails . With their homing on ability, Kisame can't dodge it. So what is his other choice?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

Nah, I was giving my opinion first. 

 I'll go read it now.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 17, 2016)

C4 should kill Kisame in his base form but Kisamehada would likely absorb the chakra. C3 is likely a game ender for Kisame.


----------



## Rai (Nov 17, 2016)

Did not read 

Kisame is stronger than Deidara

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Nah, I was giving my opinion first.
> 
> I'll go read it now.


I can see right through your lies Uchiha 



Ryuzaki said:


> C4 should kill Kisame in his base form but Kisamehada would likely absorb the chakra. C3 is likely a game ender for Kisame.


I explained how only C1 is needed for Kisame, seeing as how it knocked out the Three Tails and can kill a human instantly. C3 isn't likely a game ender, it's a village busting technique, it's going to vaporize Kisame. It definitely IS a game ender.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

ℜai said:


> Did not read
> 
> Kisame is stronger than Deidara


Despite the manga contradicting this silly notion? Yeah, no.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

@PhantomSage 

 Read it all. I already agree.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 17, 2016)

That's just too much to read and respond to on my phone, I get off work in an hour and a half, I'll give my response around then.

Kisame>Deidara by a pretty substantial margin though.


----------



## Sapherosth (Nov 17, 2016)

Pretty sure that Kisame can take on Deidara. Waterdome counters his flight ability quite handily. Can Deidara even form his clay underwater? The water would go into his hands, or perhaps make his unused clay unusable if it gets wet. Who knows.


----------



## Suoh (Nov 17, 2016)

This thread seems to be an analysis of 1v1 between Kisame and Deidara, not an explanation of why he's stronger. 1v1 isnt an absolute measurement of who is stonger

As for how i view these two, i feel like Kisame is a bridge between the Big Three in Akatsuki and everyone else. Deidara is certainly in his league but imo Kisame is a bit stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ishmael (Nov 17, 2016)

Hm...Yes you can argue that Deidara has a stronger arsenal then Kisame. But physical strength we all know kisame>Deidara. This seems to be a why Deidara beats kisame thread and even that is very debatable. I agree to Deidara's arsenal being more stronger or powerful though but not by a large gap.


----------



## Matty (Nov 17, 2016)

Hi, Izaya

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Bonly (Nov 17, 2016)

While I agree that Deidara would beat Kisame in a fight, that doesn't necessarily make Deidara stronger then Kisame which Deidara isn't overall wise.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 17, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> How is this the case? In the Deidara vs Kisame thread, you had explanations placed in front of you, you just said "Oh, there's too much garbage in this thread, I'm out of here." The same happened in the Kisame vs Pain PM debate, many people can back this up for me.



Well, being the garbage poster/s that some people are  you repeated the same arguments as if they're new despite me refuting them, or those people won't provide scans to back up their statements.

Didn't name names. Fight me mods



PhantomSage said:


> In this scenario, Deidara will take to the skies, especially with the stipulation that he's starting with his bird. Saying he won't is a classic example of bias, especially since he's taken to the skies in all his fights regardless of whether the opponent was capable of flight : he did so against Gaara, and also against Sasuke before he went into CS2.



Oh big surprise, trash.

Deidara was toying with Sasuke 

and for multiple pages onward 

here's the link, go read it for yourself, something i'm sure you haven't done yet.the beheader



PhantomSage said:


> It's also not like Deidara can't hold his own against Kisame in CQC. He was able to avoid Naruto and replace himself with a clay clone before he got struck by a Rasengan, so he could easily outperform Kisame in clone feints, allowing him to take down Kisame in taijutsu.  He's reacted to and dodged Hebi Sasuke's speed blitz which is miles beyond in speed than anything Kisame's showcased, so he'll have no problem reacting to and dodging Samehada.



Kisame is far above and beyond BoS Naruto in CQC, i'm talking like 3 tiers at minimum.

Master swordsman, amazing strength, speed and reflexes. Deidara lacks in CQC against Kisame horribly, he'll get his shit pushed so fast that Kisame doesn't even know wtf happened.

Deidara gets DEMOLISHED by an opponent who's CLEARLY, VASTLY superior to him in CQC, he made Gai, a formidable opponent of nearly unrivaled Taijutsu skill fly 50+ feet and cough up blood, are you going to say Deidara beats Gai in CQC now? Even though Deidara has next to no CQC feats?

Ridiculous, you shouldn't have put that in there, I could go on and on about how garbage that argument is, but you'd likely cry and report, so I won't 



PhantomSage said:


> Now, I agree, Kisame is stronger than Deidara in taijutsu, but it's purely out of bias to say that Deidara can't hold his own in CQC for quite a while.



It's bias to say he can.

See? We can throw around baseless horseshit, but unlike you, ,I prefer to substantiate my arguments.

Kisame has superior CQC feats that put him above Deidara by a hilariously large margin, Deidara's attack style is mid-long range, not CQC, he gets smoked in CQC by any swordsman or taijutsu expert.

It's not bias. It's fact, you saying that makes me not even want to debate this, because you'll likely retort with "lel bias" despite the manga proving you wrong. You're so full of it.




PhantomSage said:


> He doesn't even need to, being IC dictates that he hops onto his clay bird and starts soaring in the skies, raining literal death onto Kisame. From there, Kisame's Suitons are easily avoided, while Deidara spams C1. C1 itself (not C2) has the ability to home in on it's target, as stated by Gaara's own mouth.  These are the same bombs that killed three people instantly , and knocked out the Three Tails . With their homing on ability, Kisame can't dodge it. So what is his other choice?



Since this is simply what it would be like if they faced off in the manga, as per the stipulations, Kisame can outlast. Kisame possesses his own share of mid-long range jutsu that can be used to slowly (but surely) run Deidara out of clay. People seem to forget that he doesn't possess an infinite supply, and against an opponent like Kisame, of nearly infinite regen and reserves comparable to Bijuu's he outlasts.

Kisame doesn't need to hit Deidara with Suitons until he wants to finish it. He can merely stop Deidara's bombs with his suiton, slowing them down or outright stopping them, so he can casually avoid them.

Do me a favor, fill take a basketball, throw it hard as you possibly can in a pool or bathtub full of water. What did it do? That's exactly what would happen between Kisame's suiton and Deidara's bombs.

Kisame's durability is insane, comparing him to three fodder-tard shinobi negates your argument alone.

Dude tanked V2 lariat and proceeded to taunt Bee. Dude tanked Hirudora, and was ready to battle after that, it wasn't until Gai hit him again that he was down for good. Dude broke out of Yamato's chakra suppressing Mokuton and immediately used a jutsu. He is not someone who is going to go down from fodder C1, be realistic.



PhantomSage said:


> Without any free bijuu chakra from the second strongest tailed beast, what suggests that he can tank it and heal it? Oh right, nothing outside of comical bias



He'd need to absorb even a little bit of chakra to regenerate via Samehada, i've never denied that. But to suggest he needs Bijuu levels of chakra to regenerate is horseshit, as i'm sure you know.

Deidara IC is not jumping on his clay bird he knows next to nothing about. He'll likely try to battle Kisame on the ground first.

Assuming, in an unlikely scenario he does jump on his clay bird immediately, Kisame flies up to him and one shots, a la suiton 




PhantomSage said:


> Don't play the "He tanked Hirudora" card



Already did 




PhantomSage said:


> First off, he didn't tank shit. He was left in a sniveling, heaping mess of fried fish. He had only the energy to twitch and move his finger before he got knocked out. Not sure how that translates to him being 100% and still being fresh and ready to fight.



Did I say he was fresh? No.

I said he was ready to battle, if Gai didn't strike him right at that moment, I don't have a doubt in my mind Kisame would've had the stamina, endurance and reserves to go on. 

Think of it like this, you get punched in the face, are you down?

Well, you probably are, but the average person isn't.

Just trying to give a real life equivalent of that moment.

Never did I say he was 100%.

Don't put words in my mouth, it hurts you argument 




PhantomSage said:


> Second off, explosions and a beam of air pressure are massively different. Hirudora is brute force, Deidara's clay bombs are lethal and designed to kill, they're are explosions after all. Not saying one is stronger than the other. Just that they're massively different.



To compare Hirudora to a beam of air pressure is like comparing Madara's meteors to a rock you saw on the side of the road, they're on two completely different power levels.

They're not the same, but they're similar. explosions are high releases of energy. As is Hirudora. (simplified explanation of the two, but you get the idea)



PhantomSage said:


> This is literally neg diff for Deidara,






PhantomSage said:


> Samehada can't absorb the chakra inside C1, that's fucking ridiculous, they'll explode and kill Samehada and Kisame.



It can. Why wouldn't it? Oh right, because of your bias, forgot that bias serves as an argument with the worst of debaters.

Oh wait, it doesn't, shouldn't and won't be validated by me.

So long as Kisame strikes the C1 before the actual detonation, it will absorb the chakra out of them, suggesting otherwise is..say it with me....horse... 

Just because you don't like the argument, does not make it invalid.



PhantomSage said:


> but can Kisame form the necessary hand seals and blow out a Suiton before Deidara can drop a couple balls of clay? Nope, I didn't think so.



I think so, Kisame's jutsu don't require a lot of handseals, and being the best Suiton user in the manga (Calm down Tobirama fans, show me Suiton that Tobirama used that's on the same level as Waterdome or Daikodan, no? okay lets continue) he will have no trouble slowing the bombs down enough to dodge them or absorb them with Samehada.

And there, he has chakra, and can regen any attacks that may land on him in the future (to an extent, since Deidara's bombs don't contain a lot of chakra)



PhantomSage said:


> So somehow, Kisame survives a spam of C1 that rocked Turtle Island, damaged the turtle, and was said to be like "the heaven and earth switching places", and even mistaken for an earthquake [9] without any free bijuu chakra. This is the scenario you're implying, do you see how comically biased this is?



From the get-go of this thread, you've insulted me and i've met it with equally, and possibly worse insults, cut it out and I will to. Who's the guy who got smacked down trying to call me out as being unfriendly in a public thread?

You need to learn your place 

I just meet insults with insults. A fighting fire with fire sort of deal.

OT: Kisame casually avoids C1, as i've explained earlier. the heaven and earth switch places? wtf are you talking about that fodder ninja's statement?



PhantomSage said:


> Now let's remember, this Waterdome is going to be like an ant in size compared to the one used against Bee, since this time, he doesn't have 6 Tails of chakra from the second strongest bijuu in existence, his Waterdome is going to be much smaller. Nothing indicates that it'll be the same size - oh, wait, except for extreme bias. From there, Deidara is literally going shit all over Kisame. He can simply drop C1 fish down, which has the ability to knock out the 3 Tails [10], it's going to fuck Kisame up, especially multiple of them, without free bijuu chakra, he's dead.



Kisame has the reserves to support a waterdome of similar size to his Bijuuchakra amped one, as there's nothing indicating he even used a huge fraction of the bijuu chakra to begin with!!!

Something people like to forget, but I don't mind, it makes an easy argument for me 

C1 has no speed feats, Kisamehada is leagues faster than Deidara's C1, as he was able to easily outrace Bee underwater.

I find it odd as well that people call it "free" bijuu chakra, the dude had his chest blown out getting it. It was hardly free, but then again, i'm dealing with trash debaters on a regular basis




PhantomSage said:


> ow let's say, somehow, Kisame survives an explosion that can insta kill people and knocked out the 3 Tails and allowed someone of the power level of Goofball Tobi to capture the 3 Tails. Meanwhile Kisame is being negged by C1 fish, Deidara can prep C3, a village busting explosion, which will be much stronger than a simple C1 bomb that capsized an entire island. [11] This will dispel the ant sized Waterdome w/o bijuu chakra, and literally vaporize Kisame. Show me some scans of Kisame tanking things on bijuu damaging levels without a freaking coat of chakra to eat. Exactly. C3 negs Waterdome, and turns Kisame into blue dust.



Except Deidara won't be prepping C3, he'll be being tossed around like a ragdoll by Kisame underwater, making this entire paragraph of yours, trash.



PhantomSage said:


> Another option, is to drop C4 Garuda onto Waterdome, the sheer size of it will simply dispel the much smaller dome than when he fought KB. C4 Garuda was able to clear an entire forest while expanding [12], so logic dictates that it will be easily able to dispel a smaller Waterdome. If it gets to this point, which as I've proved is going to be nigh impossible, it's going to be high diff at most, since Deidara is using his most powerful technique.



People seem to forget that Waterdome revolves around Kisame himself, it's not just a mass of water not connected to anything. Frankly, once waterdome is up, it's done, it's hard to even address half of your bias seriously.

Comparing trees to a waterdome connected to Kisame himself is like comparing LED christmas lights to the Sun, it's just nonsensical. 

You're right, getting to this point will be impossible, for Deidara 




PhantomSage said:


> I'm going to tag some relatively unbiased posters to see what they think, and if they believe my essay.
> 
> @UchihaX28
> @HandfullofNaruto
> ...



"relatively unbiased posters" 2 of them have a strong disdain for me (As I have for them) and are on my ignore which you can see in my sig, you're so full of shit man, seriously, about to get put on ignore, knock off the repeated callouts, knock off the insults, because i'll just retaliate, and we're both left banned. Do you want that?

HoN won't comment, because he doesn't get into arguments that have already started (by his own admission)

Worlds is okay, but I doubt he'd be interested in such an extensive debate.

Uchiha's posts have SERIOUSLY decreased in quality over the past week, it's almost embarassing, and they're barely worth reading anymore.

An example is in this thread alone 




UchihaX28 said:


> Read it all. I already agree.





I've addressed every relevant point and refuted.

Now, are we going to knock off the ridiculous insults and callouts, or shall we continue until a mod is forced to intervene?


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure that Kisame can take on Deidara. Waterdome counters his flight ability quite handily. Can Deidara even form his clay underwater? The water would go into his hands, or perhaps make his unused clay unusable if it gets wet. Who knows.


Pretty sure being able to fly as high as you want and rain down C1 Fish that had the power to knock out the 3 Tails is a good counter to Waterdome. 

@LAZLOLAZZING
@Suoh

Read my essay, then we'll talk. I clearly explain how Deidara wins.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 17, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I explained how only C1 is needed for Kisame, seeing as how it knocked out the Three Tails and can kill a human instantly. C3 isn't likely a game ender, it's a village busting technique, it's going to vaporize Kisame. It definitely IS a game ender.


I agree as long as he is not in the waterdome, but if he is, then I see the waterdome cushioning the brunt of the explosion.


----------



## Suoh (Nov 17, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @LAZLOLAZZING
> @Suoh
> 
> Read my essay, then we'll talk. I clearly explain how Deidara wins.


That is my point. You explain why he wins, not why he's stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## The_Conqueror (Nov 17, 2016)

Deidara is a case of bad matchup for kisame but I view kisame as overall stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ishmael (Nov 17, 2016)

I read the essay. I believe Deidara has what it takes to beat kisame, his arsenal and unique fighting style isn't something Kisame will keep up with easily. 
Also it is in character for Deidara to hop on his bird, don't see how it would be out of character. Another thing kisame is a former swordsmen from the hidden mist and possesses one of the strongest swords they have. That's common knowledge in my opinion and look at kisame, why would Deidara want to test out or even engage in a taijutsu fight with kisame?


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 17, 2016)

Also, something I forgot to mention

Daikodan negs Deidara's clay, and one shots him.


Kisame has so many ways to win early or late in the battle that it's not even funny.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I agree as long as he is not in the waterdome, but if he is, then I see the waterdome cushioning the brunt of the explosion.



 I'm confused by what you mean here.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Oh big surprise, trash.
> 
> Deidara was toying with Sasuke
> 
> ...


It's because Sasuke was Itachi's brother, and uses the Sharingan, he naturally despises him. Are you suggesting that Deidara, already starting with a bird right fucking next to him, won't jump onto the bird? 


> Kisame is far above and beyond BoS Naruto in CQC, i'm talking like 3 tiers at minimum.
> 
> Master swordsman, amazing strength, speed and reflexes. Deidara lacks in CQC against Kisame horribly, he'll get his shit pushed so fast that Kisame doesn't even know wtf happened.
> 
> ...



You do know what making a point is right? The point was that Deidara could easily clone feint out Kisame and hit him from behind. He could also use an exploding clone.



> It's bias to say he can.
> 
> See? We can throw around baseless horseshit, but unlike you, ,*I prefer to substantiate my arguments.*
> 
> ...



@Bold, like you saying Hirudora >>>>>>>> ST in terms of damage to a single target without any feats to back this up?
           like you saying Daikodan can absorb Indra's Arrow?
           I could go on. The hypocritism is disgusting.



> Since this is simply what it would be like if they faced off in the manga, as per the stipulations, Kisame can outlast. Kisame possesses his own share of mid-long range jutsu that can be used to slowly (but surely) run Deidara out of clay. People seem to forget that he doesn't possess an infinite supply, and against an opponent like Kisame, of nearly infinite regen and reserves comparable to Bijuu's he outlasts.


He doesn't need an infinite supply, he can just throw C1 bombs, it's easy a fuck, and using them across a wide distance, they'll kill Kisame.



> Kisame doesn't need to hit Deidara with Suitons until he wants to finish it. He can merely stop Deidara's bombs with his suiton, slowing them down or outright stopping them, so he can casually avoid them.


No, he can't. C1 missiles have been stated by Gaara to be homing missiles that track their target, read my essay, the scan's in there.


> Do me a favor, fill take a basketball, throw it hard as you possibly can in a pool or bathtub full of water. What did it do? That's exactly what would happen between Kisame's suiton and Deidara's bombs.


If I throw it as hard as I can, it goes right through the water, and splashes everywhere. You don't need to do this ridiculous experiment to know that the bombs will literally go through the Suitons, plus Doton>Suiton, and Deidara can drop clay fish.
[QUOT]Kisame's durability is insane, comparing him to three fodder-tard shinobi negates your argument alone.[/QUOTE]
Show me scans that prove Kisame is durable without free chakra.


> Dude tanked V2 lariat and proceeded to taunt Bee


With 6 tails worth of bijuu chakra, moving on. 


> . Dude tanked Hirudora, and was ready to battle after that, it wasn't until Gai hit him again that he was down for good.


He didn't tank shit. He has burns all over his face, he has the energy to twitch. Like I said, there's nothing outside of bias that dictates that Kisame could still fight. If you're gonna claim that Kisame could still fight, bring a scan that indicates this.


> Dude broke out of Yamato's chakra suppressing Mokuton and immediately used a jutsu.


And he died seconds later. It's easy to do something with the willpower knwoing you're gonna die, Itachi kept himself alive with medicine for years and then used several MS techs, Itachi is a chakra monster confirmed by Kishi 


> He is not someone who is going to go down from fodder C1, be realistic.


Yet the 3 Tails did? There are scans in the essay.
Show me a scan of Kisame showing incredible durability without free bijuu chakra. Exactly.


> He'd need to absorb even a little bit of chakra to regenerate via Samehada, i've never denied that. But to suggest he needs Bijuu levels of chakra to regenerate is horseshit, as i'm sure you know.
> 
> Deidara IC is not jumping on his clay bird he knows next to nothing about. He'll likely try to battle Kisame on the ground first.
> 
> Assuming, in an unlikely scenario he does jump on his clay bird immediately, Kisame flies up to him and one shots, a la suiton


Kisame can fly now? 
Suiton won't one shot shit, not from 60m, Deidara hops onto the bird and he's in the sky before Kisame can cross that distance. Bias is hilarious


> I said he was ready to battle, if Gai didn't strike him right at that moment, I don't have a doubt in my mind Kisame would've had the stamina, endurance and reserves to go on.
> 
> Think of it like this, you get punched in the face, are you down?
> 
> *Well, you probably are,* but the average person isn't.


Don't talk shit you know nothing about. The average person won't be able to withstand a hard punch to the face, they'll go down. Have you ever been punched in the nose extremely hard? Well you probably haven't, but I have.
@Bold, this is fucking retarded, do you know me? No, don't talk shit like this.


> To compare Hirudora to a beam of air pressure is like comparing Madara's meteors to a rock you saw on the side of the road, they're on two completely different power levels.
> 
> They're not the same, but they're similar. explosions are high releases of energy. As is Hirudora. (simplified explanation of the two, but you get the idea)


To compare Daikodan to Indra's arrow is like to compare the strength of an ant to the strength of a gorilla.



Troyse22 said:


> It can. Why wouldn't it? Oh right, because of your bias, forgot that bias serves as an argument with the worst of debaters.
> 
> Oh wait, it doesn't, shouldn't and won't be validated by me.
> 
> ...


Horseshit. Samehada has only been shown to absorb chakra when the opposition is wearing it like a coat, Deidara literally infuses his chakra within the clay, prove that Samehada can eat chakra that's literally infused within the clay. Oh, right, nothing indicates that, except, say it with me, bia -


> I think so, Kisame's jutsu don't require a lot of handseals, and being the best Suiton user in the manga


He can make handsigns faster than Deidara can drop a bomb? Clear bias 



> he will have no trouble slowing the bombs down enough to dodge them or absorb them with Samehada.


Doton>Suiton, you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Deidara can create clay fish. Horseshit man


> From the get-go of this thread, you've insulted me and i've met it with equally, and possibly worse insults, cut it out and I will to. Who's the guy who got smacked down trying to call me out as being unfriendly in a public thread?


I didn't try to call you out, this is a clear example of your psychosis, I just said that's you're not the most friendly of members. Neither am I, I just tried to provide a reason that you wouldn't make the MOTM list. Nice, lashing out at me like that huh  



Troyse22 said:


> You need to learn your place
> 
> OT: Kisame casually avoids C1, as i've explained earlier. the heaven and earth switch places? wtf are you talking about that fodder ninja's statement?


Nice, you conveniently ignore Naruto's statement of an earthquake and ignore the fact that the turtle was completely turn sideways. Stop cherrypicking my argument, an unaddressed argument is a conceded one.


> Kisame has the reserves to support a waterdome of similar size to his Bijuuchakra amped one, as there's nothing indicating he even used a huge fraction of the bijuu chakra to begin with!!!
> 
> Something people like to forget, but I don't mind, it makes an easy argument for me
> 
> ...


Kisamehada's speed is fast enough to avoid fish, and a spam of clay fish? Comically biased, they hone in on the target, Kisame isn't going to swim around the Waterdome forever.

So you're saying Base Kisame's Waterdome = Kisame + 6 Tails of Bijuu chakra Waterdome

My friend, when there is nothing indicating something, you use logic. Logic tells you that 6 tails of the most potent chakra in the manga is going to give his Waterdome a boost.



Troyse22 said:


> Except Deidara won't be prepping C3, he'll be being tossed around like a ragdoll by Kisame underwater, making this entire paragraph of yours, trash.





> People seem to forget that Waterdome revolves around Kisame himself, it's not just a mass of water not connected to anything. Frankly, once waterdome is up, it's done, it's hard to even address half of your bias seriously.
> 
> Comparing trees to a waterdome connected to Kisame himself is like comparing LED christmas lights to the Sun, it's just nonsensical.
> 
> You're right, getting to this point will be impossible, for Deidara


Right, C3 will easily push Kisame and the waterdome in half, it's hard to adress your bias seriosuly when you have Kisame right below Vote Hashi and Mads, it's ridiculous. It's not like Kisame has roots connecting him to the ground, is it? 


> "relatively unbiased posters" 2 of them have a strong disdain for me (As I have for them) and are on my ignore which you can see in my sig, you're so full of shit man, seriously, about to get put on ignore, knock off the repeated callouts, knock off the insults, because i'll just retaliate, and we're both left banned. Do you want that?


Put me on ignore then. THat's a concession, all your points aren't valid at all and are just assumptions.
Like "Hirudora >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>C3 in terms of damage to a single target" back that up with some scans.


> HoN won't comment, because he doesn't get into arguments that have already started (by his own admission)
> 
> Worlds is okay, but I doubt he'd be interested in such an extensive debate.
> 
> ...


I just want these people to give their thoughts.
Uchiha's posts have not decrease in quality, quote some that have.

Reactions: Friendly 2


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Also, something I forgot to mention
> 
> Daikodan negs Deidara's clay, and one shots him.
> 
> ...


Daikodan is neg diffed dodged on Deidara's bird, especially when on bird Deidara could avoid Gaara's sand for quite a while.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

Show me durability feats of Kisame's without 6 tails of bijuu chakra.
Also, Samehada can't absorb chakra that's infused within the cla,y the only times your little sword has been shown to do this is when the opposition is wearing Chakra like a coat.

It's not like the chakra infused in the clay is comparable to 6 tails of bijuu chakra anyways.

Also, Deidara keeping up with Kisame in CQC was just a side note, he will hop onto the bird. I'm just giving another defense, which yes, Deidara can keep up with him for a while. Or he could just exploding clone feint and get on the damn bird.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

You've yet to explain this scan. The 3 Tails got knocked out via this, show me a scan that even implies that Kisame has bijuu level durability. Exactly, you say that you substantiate your arguments, except you have multiple holes in them, or just plain assumptions. In the Kisame vs Pain debate, you just said Hirudora > Full charged ST, and you comapred Pain's summons to Ponta, when Ponta isn't even tree height, yet Gamabunta dwarfs a forest, and Pain's summons are the same size and Bunta.

Nagato > Pain >>> Deidara >>>> Kisame.

Show speed scans of Kisame also that suggest he can dodge
c1 fish which swim in water
C2 + Landmines, Sasuke had to use his CS2 wing to tank this


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm confused by what you mean here.


C3 vs. Waterdome Kisamehada

I don't think C3 will get the job done if he's Kisame is in the Waterdome, as it will cushion the explosion.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Well, being the garbage poster/s that some people are  you repeated the same arguments as if they're new despite me refuting them, or those people won't provide scans to back up their statements.
> 
> Didn't name names. Fight me mods
> 
> ...


 Do you even click the scans I've linked? Killer Bee was the one who said the heaven and earth switched places, the same guy that if he went into BM would turn Kisame into paste, how is he fodder in anyway? 

Your argument is filled with holes.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Well, being the garbage poster/s that some people are  you repeated the same arguments as if they're new despite me refuting them, or those people won't provide scans to back up their statements.
> 
> Didn't name names. Fight me mods


THey're called links, I've showed multiple scans, infact, in this very essay I've shown 10 + scans which is better than what you can say at least. Concession accepted


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> C3 vs. Waterdome Kisamehada
> 
> I don't think C3 will get the job done if he's Kisame is in the Waterdome, as it will cushion the explosion.



 The Waterdome would compress the explosion, making it stronger as a result. I don't see how it would cushion the explosion.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The Waterdome would compress the explosion, making it stronger as a result. I don't see how it would cushion the explosion.


It would explode on contact with water I believe but Kisame would have enough of a barrier to not be fatally hurt.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It would explode on contact with water I believe but Kisame would have enough of a barrier to not be fatally hurt.



 Deidara can control the detonation of the bomb, so that's not likely.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Deidara can control the detonation of the bomb, so that's not likely.


Yeah, but he detonated the explosive above the village, he'll likely do the same here.


----------



## Veracity (Nov 17, 2016)

I guess I'm one of the few that doesn't view C3 or even C0 as fatal as most. If Gaara can block C3 with his chakra not infused with Sand and Manda can survive C0 long enough to speak, then I think someone like Tsuande can survive C3 with Katsuyu.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, but he detonated the explosive above the village, he'll likely do the same here.



 Yet he has also detonated a bomb capable of producing mass destruction underwater when it flipped over the entire turtle island. He's not constrained to detonate a bomb upon reaching the surface of the water and I fail to see why when Deidara's already detonated a bomb underwater before.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I guess I'm one of the few that doesn't view C3 or even C0 as fatal as most. If Gaara can block C3 with his chakra not infused with Sand and Manda can survive C0 long enough to speak, then I think someone like Tsuande can survive C3 with Katsuyu.



 Katsuyu's actually pretty damn resilient though.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 17, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yet he has also detonated a bomb capable of producing mass destruction underwater when it flipped over the entire turtle island. He's not constrained to detonate a bomb upon reaching the surface of the water and I fail to see why when Deidara's already detonated a bomb underwater before.


Deidara's most basic technique knocked out the 3 tails, something that troysee has not countered successfully


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 17, 2016)

It depends on what Katsuyu's purpose on the battlefield is.


UchihaX28 said:


> Yet he has also detonated a bomb capable of producing mass destruction underwater when it flipped over the entire turtle island. He's not constrained to detonate a bomb upon reaching the surface of the water and I fail to see why when Deidara's already detonated a bomb underwater before.


Fair enough but Kisamehada will likely sense that before it goes boom and more to the point, the water actually serves as an excellent padding, sure the water will be dispersed but we know what it's like out in the air so we know the upper limit of it and it won't be close to that level.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 17, 2016)

hmmm... I don't know that I would call Deidara STRONGER than Kisame, but it does make sense that Deidara would beat Kisame in a battle between the 2. If Deidara starts with his bird and gets airborne, it's pretty much a wrap. If Kisame uses the waterdome, Deidara can just fly out of the range. If Kisame is in the water, Deidara can hit him with his clay fish he used vs the 3 tails. And since these are clay bombs, not chakra attacks, Samehada can't absorb em. With no chakra to absorb, Kisame is at a pretty distinct disadvantage. Every example of him fighting at his best, he's been able to absorb a good deal of chakra beforehand. Without being able to do so, Deidara should be able to take this relatively easy really


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 17, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> In this scenario, Deidara will take to the skies, especially with the stipulation that he's starting with his bird. Saying he won't is a classic example of bias, especially since he's taken to the skies in all his fights regardless of whether the opponent was capable of flight : he did so against Gaara, and also against Sasuke before he went into CS2. [1][2]


Agreed 




PhantomSage said:


> It's also not like Deidara can't hold his own against Kisame in CQC. He was able to avoid Naruto and replace himself with a clay clone before he got struck by a Rasengan, so he could easily outperform Kisame in clone feints, allowing him to take down Kisame in taijutsu.  He's reacted to and dodged Hebi Sasuke's speed blitz which is miles beyond in speed than anything Kisame's showcased, so he'll have no problem reacting to and dodging Samehada.


Dont forget he also clone feinted Hebi sasuke who was point blank on deidara with his sharingan active. He also trapped sasuke in a smaller version of C4 and sasuke woulda been screwed if he didnt use chidori on himself. Love to know how kisame would get out of that one.




PhantomSage said:


> Now, I agree, Kisame is stronger than Deidara in taijutsu, but it's purely out of bias to say that Deidara can't hold his own in CQC for quite a while.


This is something id need to disagree with you on however, if kisame got close to deidara, and deidara couldnt get away, kisame ends him. However this is extremely unlikely, if not totally impossible given the starting distance combined with the fact he has a flight summon good to go, making this kinda moot.

60m is also no smaller than the distance that deidara reacted to hebi sasuke from, meaning if kisame tried to rush in on deidara from the start and deidara didnt have a bird prepped, he can still avoid kisames attack with ease as he avoided a far faster hebi sasuke, and rather than attack kisame with C1 like he did against sasuke, he could simply make his C2 dragon right then and there after avoiding kisames opening move, or literally any other flight summon instead.




PhantomSage said:


> He doesn't even need to, being IC dictates that he hops onto his clay bird and starts soaring in the skies, raining literal death onto Kisame. From there, Kisame's Suitons are easily avoided, while Deidara spams C1. C1 itself (not C2) has the ability to home in on it's target, as stated by Gaara's own mouth.  These are the same bombs that killed three people instantly , and knocked out the Three Tails . With their homing on ability, Kisame can't dodge it. So what is his other choice?


Agreed.




PhantomSage said:


> Don't play the "He tanked Hirudora" card.


Oh boy...



PhantomSage said:


> First off, he didn't tank shit. He was left in a sniveling, heaping mess of fried fish. He had only the energy to twitch and move his finger before he got knocked out. Not sure how that translates to him being 100% and still being fresh and ready to fight.


Thank you 



PhantomSage said:


> This is literally neg diff for Deidara,


Ehhhh i dont know about this, more like mid-high imo, deidara walks away with the win for sure, but not neg.



PhantomSage said:


> without 6 freaking bijuu tails of chakra,


Fun fact, it was actually 10 tails of V1 chakra, at least 4 tailed V1 right here, followed by 6 tails here, proving your point even further, kisame also called it the greatest amount of chakra he had ever absorbed, saying samehada had never before reached that size, and that was before he even ate bees V2.




PhantomSage said:


> Suitons won't do shit against C1, they might push it back,


Agreed, although Id argue that C1 would rip through suiton uncontested, C1=Doton, Dton>Suiton, ergo...


PhantomSage said:


> Let's say this nigh impossible scenario happens, and somehow, Kisame spews out Waterdome.


Waterdome means nothing.

C3 pops the bubble effortlessly and ends kisame in the process.

C1 that leveled turtle island would ruin waterdome and kisame simultaneously.

And C4 simply enters the dome via gravity, considering deidara can fly directly over the dome and puke C4 directly into it, and ends kisame with a little more subtlety.

C0 forces a draw, nothing kisame has comes remotely close to saving him from that.



PhantomSage said:


> he doesn't have 6 Tails of chakra from the second strongest bijuu in existence,


As i stated earlier, it was at least 10 tails of V1 chakra + an entire V2 cloak that amped that waterdome, a tad more than 6 V1 tails, proving your point even further.



PhantomSage said:


> C3 negs Waterdome, and turns Kisame into blue dust.


Yep.




PhantomSage said:


> Another option, is to drop C4 Garuda onto Waterdome, the sheer size of it will simply dispel the much smaller dome than when he fought KB. C4 Garuda was able to clear an entire forest while expanding [12], so logic dictates that it will be easily able to dispel a smaller Waterdome. If it gets to this point, which as I've proved is going to be nigh impossible, it's going to be high diff at most, since Deidara is using his most powerful technique.


I wouldnt say C4 dispels waterdome, but it doesnt even need to to kill kisame while hes inside it, so theres that.



PhantomSage said:


> INB4 Deidara needs prep for C3, as WS pointed out, he can dodge all of Kisame's attacks on his bird, he has all the time in the world to prep a simple clay bomb.


Awwwww, i get a mention :ho ty fam.

My opinion will be a tad more condensed lol...

Ahem....

Kisame loses due to bad matchup, doton>suiton, deidaras long range attacks> Kisames mid range ones, C4 ignores durability and negates kisames regen, C3 simply plows through waterdome and/or regen with sheer force, C1 pops waterdome as it capsized an entire island, deidaras mobility via flight summons means kisame never lands a hit on him.

Imho, kisame can take out more people in the verse than deidara could, and can likely hold his own against higher tier characters than deidara can, its just that people like deidara and gai are nightmare matchups for shark boy, so he gets the short end of the stick here.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 18, 2016)

I lean towards Deidara beating Kisame.

However, I rank Kisame higher as a shinobi.

He's simply a better shinobi overall when you go through all of the categories and grade them.

Kisame is not only a ranged nuker like Deidara, he's a literal monster.

All four speeds (Perception, Reaction, Shunshin, Limb), Physical Strength, Durability, Experience, Weapon Skills, Taijutsu, Physical Stamina, Chakra Pool, Portrayal are all above Deidara.

Where they're near equals is in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Range and Intelligence, Deidara may have the slight edge in Ninjutsu but it's hard to say that because his techniques are literally deactivated by even the weakest Raiton on contact - not the case for Kisame's Suitons against Doton.

Deidara has him in support and the fact he can fly makes him a unique shinobi.

But Kisame is unique as well, being able to absorb opponent's chakra/techniques and grow in power/regenerate is something that a literal few shinobi are capable of, just like flight.

Overall - Deidara is in the middle of the mid kage class with shinobi like Gengetsu, Ei, Gaara, Tsunade, MS Sasuke, Armless Orochimaru etc, while Kisame is in the upper mid kage class with shinobi like Mu, Sick Itachi, 3rd Raikage, Pain-arc SM Naruto, SM Jiraiya etc - I believe there's three distinctive classes within the mid kage class.

Without Samehada Kisame drops to that middle mid kage class, and Deidara's edge in Ninjutsu (the most important category) would put him above Kisame despite Kisame still winning most categories, the loss of Samehada means no jutsu sapping or healing, and no offensive waterdome - Deidara is simply stronger than that version of Kisame.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> It's because Sasuke was Itachi's brother, and uses the Sharingan, he naturally despises him. Are you suggesting that Deidara, already starting with a bird right fucking next to him, won't jump onto the bird?



...you said he beats him in CQC, implying YOU didn't think he'd jump on his bird.

Once again, full of shit.



PhantomSage said:


> You do know what making a point is right? The point was that Deidara could easily clone feint out Kisame and hit him from behind. He could also use an exploding clone.







PhantomSage said:


> @Bold, like you saying Hirudora >>>>>>>> ST in terms of damage to a single target without any feats to back this up?
> like you saying Daikodan can absorb Indra's Arrow?
> I could go on. The hypocritism is disgusting.



What are you even talking about? Hirudora is clearly the superior attack for single target.
Madara would casually brush off ST and would only be sent flying by CST, whereas he was burned from Hirudora (a literal immortal for the record)

Nothing indicating Daikodan can't absorb even the likes of BPS, Indra's arrow, Madara's PS etc etc.

Daikodan grows in power in direct proportion to the enemies chakra/jutsu. This means that is chews through all forms of chakra, be they Rikudo, Bijuu whatever, it eats it, NOTHING indicates otherwise, unless someone can provide a scan specifically stating "Daikodan can absorb chakra, except X, Y, Z" etc. It says it absorbs chakra, that's it, just because you despise Kisame for whatever reason, does not make my point any less true.




PhantomSage said:


> He doesn't need an infinite supply, he can just throw C1 bombs, it's easy a fuck, and using them across a wide distance, they'll kill Kisame.



Then Kisame proceeds to swing Samehada remotely in the direction of C1 and absorbs the chakra out of it, as it has shown it doesn't need to be in direct contact with the jutsu to absorb it (see when Samehada absorbs Katon without touching it)



PhantomSage said:


> No, he can't. C1 missiles have been stated by Gaara to be homing missiles that track their target, read my essay, the scan's in there.



C1 Negated as per my reasoning above.



PhantomSage said:


> Show me scans that prove Kisame is durable without free chakra.



Frankly you're not worth fetching scans for at this point, although I see you stopped with the insults, so I might get some if you keep it up, champ.

V1 Bee blew out Sasuke's chest and stomach areas, as well as the organs beneath as per Jugo's statement correct, beyond even the healing of Karin, a notably powerful medical shinobi.

Bee needed V2 to replicate the same feat against Kisame.

And, once again, Kisame tanked Hirudora, an attack that burned a literal immortal and forced him back.

Kisame is clearly above average in durability.

Kisame tanked Hirudora without "free" chakra.

Really annoyed at the term "free" chakra though, as he has to risk his life getting it. It's like working for 60 hours a week, and your employer says "here's your free money"



PhantomSage said:


> He didn't tank shit. He has burns all over his face, he has the energy to twitch. Like I said, there's nothing outside of bias that dictates that Kisame could still fight. If you're gonna claim that Kisame could still fight, bring a scan that indicates this.



Gai felt that Kisame was still in a position to fight, hence why he punched him again. He would not have punched him if he felt he wasn't a threat, no ifs, ands or buts about that.

Kisame was still ready to fight and he still posed a big enough threat to where Gai felt the need to strike him yet again.



PhantomSage said:


> And he died seconds later. It's easy to do something with the willpower knwoing you're gonna die, Itachi kept himself alive with medicine for years and then used several MS techs, Itachi is a chakra monster confirmed by Kishi



If you really think Willpower is all you need to survive then I don't know what to tell you, bullshit is the only word I can think of. There's a ton of examples in the Manga where willpower isn't enough to beat something. You need to actually have strength, intelligence and overall power on your side too.



PhantomSage said:


> Show me a scan of Kisame showing incredible durability without free bijuu chakra. Exactly.



You don't deserve a scan for your extremely disrespectful first post, but I gave you examples above.



PhantomSage said:


> Kisame can fly now?
> Suiton won't one shot shit, not from 60m, Deidara hops onto the bird and he's in the sky before Kisame can cross that distance. Bias is hilarious



I linked a scan of Kisame flying bruv, I don't know what more you want.

Although he was traveling through the air via a suiton, I don't know if that's the same as flying on like...Sasuke's or Deidara's level, but that's just semantics.

Suiton will one shot shit, especially Kisame's, he possesses the most powerful Suiton arsenal in the Narutoverse, he makes Tobirama look the "White Autistic of the Leaf"



PhantomSage said:


> Don't talk shit you know nothing about. The average person won't be able to withstand a hard punch to the face, they'll go down. Have you ever been punched in the nose extremely hard? Well you probably haven't, but I have.
> @Bold, this is fucking retarded, do you know me? No, don't talk shit like this.



Surprisingly, despite all the fights i've been in in my life, no i've not been punched in the nose hard enough to break it. However i've experienced enough fights to say I have never went down from one punch, even when I got sucked punched in the back of the head one time.

As for me talking shit, you talked shit first fam, like I said you insult me and i'll insult you.

Don't give what you can't take.



PhantomSage said:


> o compare Daikodan to Indra's arrow is like to compare the strength of an ant to the strength of a gorilla.



Standard Daikodan vs Indra's arrow and Daikodan looks like a joke, however, a Indra's arrow amped Daikodan is clearly superior to Indra's arrow.

Daikodan alone isn't powerful, as a great portion of its power comes from the opponents chakra/jutsu, it's only slightly more powerful than the Jutsu it absorbed.

But if we're talking like, Standard Daikodan vs Indra's arrow, which does more damage, the obvious answer is Indra's arrow. But a Indra's arrow amped Daikodan vs Indra's arrow, which does more damage, the obvious answer is Daikodan, not by a huge amount however.



PhantomSage said:


> Samehada has only been shown to absorb chakra when the opposition is wearing it like a coat, Deidara literally infuses his chakra within the clay, prove that Samehada can eat chakra that's literally infused within the clay. Oh, right, nothing indicates that, except, say it with me, bia -



I actually discussed this with @HandfullofNaruto in a PM a few days back, and we agreed that so long as Samehada is touching the person, it can absorb chakra directly out of them.



PhantomSage said:


> He can make handsigns faster than Deidara can drop a bomb? Clear bias



The bombs need a bit to travel to their intended target buddy. In that time Kisame can make the handsigns easily, and his strongest Jutsu, Daikodan, only requires 2 handseals.

Are you really going to sit there and say that Deidara can drop the bombs, have them travel to his target AND form the handseal to detonate them before Kisame can form 2 hand seals? Really? I smell...say it with me...horse




PhantomSage said:


> Doton>Suiton, you're also conveniently ignoring the fact that Deidara can create clay fish. Horseshit man



Not all Suiton are negated by Doton, just like not all Katon are instantly negated by any Suiton. Kisame's Suiton are in another league than Deidaras Doton, therefore I cannot see it negating his Suiton.



PhantomSage said:


> I didn't try to call you out, this is a clear example of your psychosis, I just said that's you're not the most friendly of members. Neither am I, I just tried to provide a reason that you wouldn't make the MOTM list. Nice, lashing out at me like that huh



Difference is, i'm friendly to anyone who's friendly to me. Just because I don't tolerate people calling me out and baiting me does not make me unfriendly. Let me ask you if someone came up to you and said "screw you, dirtbag", would you be friendly toward them? No? Okay, then by your logic, you're unfriendly. Get some perspective, kid.




PhantomSage said:


> Nice, you conveniently ignore Naruto's statement of an earthquake and ignore the fact that the turtle was completely turn sideways. Stop cherrypicking my argument, an unaddressed argument is a conceded one.



How does Naruto know what an earthquake feels like? Scans of Naruto enduring an earthquake?



PhantomSage said:


> Kisamehada's speed is fast enough to avoid fish, and a spam of clay fish? Comically biased, they hone in on the target, Kisame isn't going to swim around the Waterdome forever.



Those clay fish can chase him all around all they want, doesn't mean they'll ever reach him due to him clearly outspeeding them. Kisame can also be totally mobile and avoid C1 while striking Deidara with powerful strikes




PhantomSage said:


> Right, C3 will easily push Kisame and the waterdome in half, it's hard to adress your bias seriosuly when you have Kisame right below Vote Hashi and Mads, it's ridiculous. It's not like Kisame has roots connecting him to the ground, is it?



Kisame's chakra>fodder tree roots.

Waterdome goes where Kisame goes, it can't seperate. If Kisame gets sent flying, waterdome goes with him.




PhantomSage said:


> Uchiha's posts have not decrease in quality, quote some that have.



Kinda funny, considering I gave an example right in that post 



PhantomSage said:


> Nagato > Pain >>> Deidara >>>> Kisame.

Reactions: Disagree 2


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Nagato > Pain >>> Deidara >>>> Kisame.


More like...

Nagato>Pain>>>Kisame>=<Deidara

Deidara beats kisame due to a really bad matchup, but id argue kisame is the superior shinobi in terms of all around ability and other matchups in general. Deidara has the edge in DC and mobility, but not much else honestly.


----------



## Serene Grace (Nov 18, 2016)

I Thought you had great points, and went into depth on why you think Deidara wins. I think Deidara wins as he probably has one of the biggest advantages against: His flight. Once he's in the air, there isn't much kisame could do to him and he could just keep spamming his explosions.

@PhantomSage I would go in depth on why I think Deidara stomps, but I'm not really in the mood.

Lol and remember you're arguing with a guy who thinks Kisame is superior to pein and that Nagato is Kisame's equal, this might take a while

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> ...you said he beats him in CQC, implying YOU didn't think he'd jump on his bird.
> 
> Once again, full of shit.
> 
> ...


Deidara doesn't use chakra attacks though. He uses bombs. Samehada can't absorb bombs

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Nov 18, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> Deidara doesn't use chakra attacks though. He uses bombs. Samehada can't absorb bombs


Lol I was thinking this too.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 18, 2016)

Deidara is like Kisame's worst nightmare 1v1. His long range style will keep him outside of Kenjutsu and Chakra absorption range, as well as allow him to avoid any water sources Kisame might create. Also Deidara's ability to control the detonation of his bombs, should enable him to figure out what a safe range is to detonate them outside Kisame's ability to absorb chakra out of them (if he even can absorb chakra from them), while still hitting Kisame. Also as one of the most accomplished Doton users in the entire verse he has a steep elemental advantage over Kisame's primary affinity of Suiton, and without a Bijuu chakra source I doubt any of Kisame's Suitons can overcome this advantage. 

However I also don't think 1v1 is the best way to decide a Shinobi's overall level. Kisame level itself fluctuates. Without stolen chakra he is very clearly bellow Deidara's level imo, considering the indication that he'd have a tough time with 3T-Kakashi and Roshi, who Deidara would likely beat (I only say likely due to the steep type disadvantage he has against Kakashi). However if Kisame gets a large quantity of chakra he can perform on a much higher level as seen against B & Gai, albeit 7th-Gated Gai still thrashed him pretty hard even after absorbing tons of Bijuu-Chakra, so he still has his limits, but I could see him performing better against many enemies than Deidara due to chakra absorption. So while I'd say Deidara is overall superior, I think Kisame can perform up to or better than his standards against certain enemies.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Android (Nov 18, 2016)

Yes @PhantomSage , Deidara is stronger than Kiss-ass-same .

And no , it's not just because of match up. Deidara overall is the stronger.
Doton > Suiton .
Deidara fighting style >> Kisame's .
Deidara's bombs and nano bombs > Kisame's chakra absorption abilities.
Everything about Deidara screams bad match up for Kisame , tho Deidara is the superior one even without that .


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

@PhantomSage you've also given no reason as to why Deidara is stronger than Kisame overall, merely examples of how he beats him.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> actually discussed this with @HandfullofNaruto in a PM a few days back, and we agreed that so long as Samehada is touching the person, it can absorb chakra directly out of them.





The All Unknowing said:


> Deidara doesn't use chakra attacks though. He uses bombs. Samehada can't absorb bombs



See, this is what I mean by garbage posting, I already addressed it and people just repeat the same arguments, there's nothing more annoying, and should be report worthy.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 18, 2016)

@Turrin he only struggled against Roshi because of the lava style, Samehada has issues with heated chakra and it would no doubt vaporize some of his water techniques if you consider the fact Gai's Morning Peacock did.

Against Gai he did absorb a lot of Killer Bee's chakra, but he was also starved for multiple days in a cramped blade without sleep and didn't mould chakra during that entire time, and looked weak as shit by the end of it.

It's debatable whether that chakra grossly increased his power or merely took him back to his normal chakra levels, or boosted him very little.

Against Killer Bee it's my opinion the chakra did make him much stronger in that instance.

It's irrelevant though. Overall, Kisame is superior, even if you give Deidara the slight Ninjutsu edge he can't compare in many of the other shinobi categories, Kisame is an above average kage at almost every category that a shinobi is graded upon, he has very few weaknesses.

I challenge you to provide multiple scenarios in which Kisame would be incapable of matching or exceeding Deidara's results, on a battlefield, infiltrating a village, and in a kage level small skirmish battle.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Typing up a rebuttal now. @Troyse22, as for hwo Deidara is stronger than Kisame, that was simply bad wording on my part. I'm arguing how Deidara beats Kisame.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Typing up a rebuttal now. @Troyse22, as for hwo Deidara is stronger than Kisame, that was simply bad wording on my part. I'm arguing how Deidara beats Kisame.



So you believe Kisame is stronger than Deidara?


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> See, this is what I mean by garbage posting, I already addressed it and people just repeat the same arguments, there's nothing more annoying, and should be report worthy.


lmao. Yeah, so because you discussed it with one random poster, it becomes fact and any post that disagrees is report worthy. Aside from the part where his bombs are NOT his person. You're outright delusional dude. Prove to me that Samehada can absorb an explosive. Until you do that, you're wrong. Bitching/crying/reporting just shows how trash your argument is because you can't prove shit so you have to pathetically try to change the focus. 

Show me a scan where Samehada absorbs an explosive, then report me to your hearts content

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Alright @Troyse22, your argument has become cluttered, filled with concessions like the vomit photo you posted, and you are just cherrypicking my argument, which I think is the most annoying thing (no offense).

Here's an example, when I said that a simple C1 Explosion rocked Turtle Island, and was described by Killer Bee as the "heaven and earth trading places" and by Naruto as an earthquake, you immediately jumped and said that Naruto has never felt and earthquake and that the "heaven earth" statement was made by a fodder.


Which ain't even true, Killer Bee was the one who said that, and in no way is he fodder. But you just cherrypicked those two parts, and conveniently ignored the fact that it capsized a fucking island.



Anyways, due to the low quality of your counterargument, I'm gonna try to clear this up. I just want you to counter 7 major points. If you counter them with irrefutable evidence to the point where I can't refute it, I will concede. It won't be a half assed concession that you've done several times, like posting an emote, I will flat out concede, if you counter each point in great detail without cherrypicking my argument. Got it?

Oh, also, you need to address my points with valid argument, not some unsubstantiated shit, mkay? 

Here are the 7 points.

*1.* In what manga do you read in which C1 is fodder? Are you forgetting the fact that it capsized an entire island? Are you forgetting that a single C1 bomb knocked out a Bijuu? [1][2]

*2.* How is Kisame living through these bombs? 

- C1, which canonically capsized an entire island [3], which even dwarfed Manda II in size, and knocked out a bijuu [4], to add onto the fact that it's a homing missile and will continue to pursue it's target?

- C2, which completely removed Sasuke's wing, like it literally, was blasted off. [6] This is the same wing that could literally tank hits from a KN1 Naruto's attack. [7] Kisame isn't regenning from that. The C2 bombs are also stated to be homing missiles. [8]

- C3, which is a village sized technique. Deidara can prep this with no diff, being on his bird allows him to casually dodge Suitons, he has as much time as he likes.

INB4 you cherrypick this point as well, counter each and every single one of the bombs.

*3. *Prove Kisame's durability, w/o literally 10 Tails of the most potent chakra in the whole Narutoverse. Like WS said, at least 4 tails of chakra here [9], and then 6 tails afterwards. [10]

Your only feat for him here is "tanking Hirudora".
I want to shut that shit down now, Kisame was only shown to be able to twitch his finger before being struck by Gai. You said you were "confident that he could get up and fight back if he had not received that punch."

Guess what?  
Your confidence doesn't sell me. It's literally a biased assumption, which is not based off the manga, rather your "confidence".

*4. *How will Suitons overcome Explosive Clay, especially when :

- Explosive clay is made by infusing Explosion Release chakra into the clay. Guess the two releases involved in Explosion Release? Doton, and Raiton, both which are > Suiton.

- C1 and C2 bombs are homing missiles as I proved above, Suiton pushes them back? No problem, they literally home in again. Kisame may have large reserves, but he won't have the chakra to spam Suiton after Suiton fruitlessly, everyone has a limit. Deidara can just wait until the bombs get a bit closer to Kisame, then detonate the bombs, the AOE or just the shockwave alone will damage Kisame, considering it knocked out a Bijuu and sent Tobi flying so far that he looked like an ant from the shockwave.

*5.* You said you supposedly proved that Samehada can absorb chakra infused within something to @HandfullofNaruto. Prove it to me then. Saying you proved it to someone else is not a viable argument, prove it to me, then we'll talk.

*6. *Deidara has showcased the ability to create C1 fish that have the ability to take out a Bijuu, and another version of the same technique flipped an island onto it's side. Not gonna link the scans since I've done it multiple times already, just look at Point 1, 2, and 3.

Are you honestly telling me that when Deidara sees Waterdome up, he won't put together two and two, and not drop clay fish in? 

Kisame can swim away from C1 fish forever, they've created a shockwave that pushed Tobi so far that it made him look like an ant, it capsized an island, Deidara can just detonate the fish near Kisame, the AOE will one shot, given it's knocked out a bijuu. Are you saying Kisame can survive an explosion that knocked out a Bijuu, w/o Bijuu chakra this time? 

*7.* If they enter CQC, which BTW is completely OOC for Deidara, who's to say Kisame doesn't get clone feinted and killed with no diff? He did it to BoS Naruto, and he clone feinted Sasuke who had his 3TS activated [11], it's purely conjecture to say that it can't happen to Kisame, seeing as how Kisame doesn't have the reactions granted by Sharingan precog, which literally allowed Sasuke, who just awakened 3TS, to dodge KN0 Naruto's attacks with shit diff.

I'd love to see how Kisame gets himself out of this pickle, considering he doesn't have a single Raiton technique.

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Nov 18, 2016)

I don't see why people think Kisame is so great when the thought of him fighting one of the legendary sanin almost made him crap his pants.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

Okay so i'm going to ignore the beginning of your post @PhantomSage cause it's irrelevant, you want me to counter the points you listed, so that's where i'll start.



PhantomSage said:


> In what manga do you read in which C1 is fodder? Are you forgetting the fact that it capsized an entire island? Are you forgetting that a single C1 bomb knocked out a Bijuu?



1. I left it alone because I clearly made a mistake, I thought you were talking about when the island flipped upside down and that fodder Ninja (can't even remember his name) was talking about it where Naruto was in the room with the Islands animals.



PhantomSage said:


> How is Kisame living through these bombs?
> 
> - C1, which canonically capsized an entire island [3], which even dwarfed Manda II in size, and knocked out a bijuu [4], to add onto the fact that it's a homing missile and will continue to pursue it's target?
> 
> ...



C1, it did no damage to turtle island, all it did was roll it over, that's not a feat worth hyping up. 

C2, Hebi Sasuke is fodder in comparison to Kisame, his durability is FAAAAAAAAAAAR below Kisame's, as i'm sure anyone would be willing to agree with. I already gave the example of Bee blowing out Sasuke's chest and stomach areas and organs with V1, whereas he felt the need for V2 to replicate the same feat against Kisame.

C3, this requires significant prep (in terms how fast this battle is going to flow) and by this time, both Kisame and Deidara are going to be bringing out their strongest techs. Waterdome is an immensely large structure, dwarfing the likes of Katsuyu, Manda and Bunta two fold easily. When Kisame vomits it up, it's going to catch Deidara, it's not like Deidara is going to above the fkn clouds, he doesn't know of Waterdome, he has no reasons to be prepared for it.

Fair enough? Good. Once Waterdome is up, this battle is sealed.

So it doesn't matter if Deidara can dodge Kisame's lower rank Suitons, all that matters are two things.

1. Running Deidara out of clay, which can likely happen if Deidara is forced to spam out C1 and C2.

2. Waterdome.

Let me put it to you like this, give Deidara full knowledge and Kisame only manga knowledge and this is an unholy stomp, but Deidara does not know of Waterdome, it's never once indicated. 

Once both are in Waterdome, Kisame can casually avoid C1 with his clearly VASTLY superior speed, as C1 has absolutely no notable speed (that's made evident in the manga, or hell, even the Anime) while casually beating Deidara down, as Deidara can not match anything Kisame can do underwater.

1000 feeding sharks tear Deidara's ass out, if not that, then powerful Taijutsu strikes by Kisame.

There's also nothing indicating (As i've pointed out on multiple occasions) that Kisame can not manifest a waterdome of close to the same size as his Bijuu chakra amped one because 1. Kisame's Chakra reserves were noted to be vastly superior to anyone elses in the Akatsuki's, an organization that has had the likes of Orochimaru in their ranks.

2. There's nothing indicating that Kisame used a large fraction of the Bijuu chakra manifesting or maintaining the waterdome.

There. Did I leave anything out? No? Good moving on.



PhantomSage said:


> Prove Kisame's durability, w/o literally 10 Tails of the most potent chakra in the whole Narutoverse. Like WS said, at least 4 tails of chakra here [9], and then 6 tails afterwards. [10]



There's nothing indicating that the Bijuu chakra increased Kisame's durability, because it's clear he didn't use it there. All it did was aid his REGEN, not durability, so him surviving a V2 Lariat and still being conscious is still a durability feat.

Okay, good, moving on.



PhantomSage said:


> Your only feat for him here is "tanking Hirudora".
> I want to shut that shit down now, Kisame was only shown to be able to twitch his finger before being struck by Gai. You said you were "confident that he could get up and fight back if he had not received that punch."



If Gai didn't feel as if he was a threat, he wouldn't have struck him again, as i've pointed out in my last argument. Even Gai thought he was still ready to battle. There was no indication that Kisame had broken bones, or ran out of stamina/chakra. Okay? Good. Moving on.



PhantomSage said:


> Your confidence doesn't sell me. It's literally a biased assumption, which is not based off the manga, rather your "confidence".



Pot calls kettle black.



PhantomSage said:


> How will Suitons overcome Explosive Clay, especially when :
> 
> - Explosive clay is made by infusing Explosion Release chakra into the clay. Guess the two releases involved in Explosion Release? Doton, and Raiton, both which are > Suiton.



You didn't read my last argument. Kisame's Suiton exceeds Deidara's clay by such a vast margin that it won't simply cancel it out. And Raiton does not decrease Suiton's power for the record.



PhantomSage said:


> C1 and C2 bombs are homing missiles as I proved above, Suiton pushes them back? No problem, they literally home in again. Kisame may have large reserves, but he won't have the chakra to spam Suiton after Suiton fruitlessly, everyone has a limit. Deidara can just wait until the bombs get a bit closer to Kisame, then detonate the bombs, the AOE or just the shockwave alone will damage Kisame, considering it knocked out a Bijuu and sent Tobi flying so far that he looked like an ant from the shockwave.



Deidara will run out of clay long LONG before Kisame runs out of chakra, his chakra are Bijuu level, and exceed Bijuu level if he absorbs others chakra. So yes, Kisame can casually spam out Suiton.

They slow down to such an extent that Kisame literally chops them in half via Samehada. (Deidara's bombs contain chakra and can be negated by Samehada, as indicated by Sasuke detecting Nanobomb chakra with his Sharingan, and could react accordingly) 

The shockwave alone will not even gain Kisame's attention, let alone hurt him, be real, the guy has far above average durability.

Good? Moving on.



PhantomSage said:


> You said you supposedly proved that Samehada can absorb chakra infused within something to @HandfullofNaruto. Prove it to me then. Saying you proved it to someone else is not a viable argument, prove it to me, then we'll talk.



Mmkay. 

Kisame clearly absorbed chakra directly from Gyuki, as Gyuki was out of chakra and couldn't bring Bee back up, there's no way that 2 V2 cloaks and a couple of V1 cloaks are the extent of Gyuki's chakra, Kisame clearly absorbed chakra DIRECTLY from Gyuki, as he was out of chakra.



PhantomSage said:


> Are you honestly telling me that when Deidara sees Waterdome up, he won't put together two and two, and not drop clay fish in?



Addressed the waterdome thing in detail earlier.



PhantomSage said:


> Kisame can swim away from C1 fish forever, they've created a shockwave that pushed Tobi so far that it made him look like an ant, it capsized an island, Deidara can just detonate the fish near Kisame, the AOE will one shot, given it's knocked out a bijuu. Are you saying Kisame can survive an explosion that knocked out a Bijuu, w/o Bijuu chakra this time?



Except it won't, suggesting that Kisame dies to a slow ass fuck C1 bomb is ridiculous, he can easily far outrun them while still continuing to bombard Deidara with everything hes got.

Fuck Tobi, Kisame's durability far exceeds Tobi's durability, who has no durability feats.

I'm saying Kisame can avoid the explosion altogether.



PhantomSage said:


> If they enter CQC, which BTW is completely OOC for Deidara, who's to say Kisame doesn't get clone feinted and killed with no diff? He did it to BoS Naruto, and he clone feinted Sasuke who had his 3TS activated [11], it's purely conjecture to say that it can't happen to Kisame, seeing as how Kisame doesn't have the reactions granted by Sharingan precog, which literally allowed Sasuke, who just awakened 3TS, to dodge KN0 Naruto's attacks with shit diff.



Look, you're the one who said Deidara can match Kisame in CQC, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

BoS Naruto is far below Kisame's IQ and battle intelligence overall, it's like comparing Shukaku to Genin Naruto, they're so far apart in that department it's not even funny.

Deidara also knew exactly what was going to happen with 3TS Sasuke, and prepped in advance for it.

Kisame's reactions far exceed Sasuke's, Kisame is a master swordsman, a skill that requires insane reaction times. He was also able to dodge AND counter a 3 way speed blitz in the Bee fight, clearly showing his vastly superior CQC skills in comparison to V1 Bee. And V1 Bee almost one shotted a SUPERIOR version of Sasuke.

Nothing ignored besides insults, addressed every argument.

Kisame takes this in a high diff battle.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

but they wouldn't hurt Kisame?


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Okay so i'm going to ignore the beginning of your post @PhantomSage cause it's irrelevant, you want me to counter the points you listed, so that's where i'll start.


Okay then  



> C1, it did no damage to turtle island, all it did was roll it over, that's not a feat worth hyping up.




Are you fucking kidding me?
You are literally saying that flipping over an island is not a good feat. You can't be serious right now. 
Having enough force to even be able to shift an island is already a good feat, a giant ass turtle's mass >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kisame. 

*DEIDARA'S MOST BASIC TECHNIQUE HAD THE POWER TO FLIP OVER AN ENTIRE - FUCKING - ISLAND. *

Can I make this more clear? Probably not.




> C2, Hebi Sasuke is fodder in comparison to Kisame, his durability is FAAAAAAAAAAAR below Kisame's, as i'm sure anyone would be willing to agree with. I already gave the example of Bee blowing out Sasuke's chest and stomach areas and organs with V1, whereas he felt the need for V2 to replicate the same feat against Kisame.



CS2 Wing isn't FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR below Kisame's, it tanked a V1 jin's attack with no diff, this leads me to believe it should be able to tank slightly stronger attacks given it tanked a slightly weaker one with NO DIFF. If Sasuke had his wing, he probably would have been able to withstand the attack, same how Kisame used Samehada to partially absorb the impact of a Lariat.



> C3, this requires significant prep


Baseless statement, we don't know how much prep time it needs. But Deidara has all the time he has up on his bird, literally dodging Kisame's Suitons with neg diff.


> and by this time, both Kisame and Deidara are going to be bringing out their strongest techs. Waterdome is an immensely large structure, *dwarfing the likes of Katsuyu, Manda and Bunta two fold easily*. When Kisame vomits it up, it's going to catch Deidara, it's not like Deidara is going to above the fkn clouds, he doesn't know of Waterdome, he has no reasons to be prepared for it.



Even without him being hopped up of Hachibi chakra? 
@Bold, this is 100% baseless, provide scans for this, in my mind of the size scaling, I see Waterdome more or less equal to Bunta's size.


Are you implying that Deidara can't see water rising and accelerate upwards when he reacted to Hebi Sasuke's blitz which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kisame's speed? His bird literally avoided something with the speed of Gaara's sand.


> So it doesn't matter if Deidara can dodge Kisame's lower rank Suitons, all that matters are two things.


Okay.... he can dodge the Suitons but gonna see what you have to say..


> 1. Running Deidara out of clay, which can likely happen if Deidara is forced to spam out C1 and C2.


Which he doesn't need to, the homing ability will lock in again.



> Once both are in Waterdome, Kisame can casually avoid C1 with his clearly VASTLY superior speed


He's not gonna be swimming away from multiple C1 fish forever, is he? The AOE of the C1 explosions doesn't require the fish to catch up, just requires them to get close enough. Deidara can also sneak up fish on him, in such a large dome, Kisame isn't going to be paying attention to every side. He did do this to the 3 tails.



> There's also nothing indicating (As i've pointed out on multiple occasions) that Kisame can not manifest a waterdome of close to the same size as his Bijuu chakra amped one because 1. Kisame's Chakra reserves were noted to be vastly superior to anyone elses in the Akatsuki's, an organization that has had the likes of Orochimaru in their ranks.



Prove Orochimaru's vast chakra reserves?
Also, it's common sense, that with literally 10 tails of chakra, he wouldn't use it to amp up Waterdome, especially since you try to say Kisame has the intelligence on par with Kakashi, Itachi, Shika, etc.



> 2. There's nothing indicating that Kisame used a large fraction of the Bijuu chakra manifesting or maintaining the waterdome.
> There. Did I leave anything out? No? Good moving on.



So where did 10 tails of the most potent chakra in the world go? You've got to be joking



> There's nothing indicating that the Bijuu chakra increased Kisame's durability, because it's clear he didn't use it there. All it did was aid his REGEN, not durability, so him surviving a V2 Lariat and still being conscious is still a durability feat.
> Okay, good, moving on.



Basically, the extreme amounts of chakra immediately started regenning him, allowing him to survive. It's the same with Kabuto taking a Rasengan, he said himself that he anticipated it and already began moving chakra to the location to help heal it, except 10 tails of Bijuu chakra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kabuto.



> If Gai didn't feel as if he was a threat, he wouldn't have struck him again, as i've pointed out in my last argument. Even Gai thought he was still ready to battle. There was no indication that Kisame had broken bones, or ran out of stamina/chakra. Okay? Good. Moving on.


You sure Gai just didn't do it because *he specifically told Kisame not to move a muscle?*
Gai feeling he's a threat =/= Kisame actually still being a threat
What? Is Gai a sensor now? He can detect health and chakra amounts?


> Pot calls kettle black.


Okay, whatever you like  



> Deidara will run out of clay long LONG before Kisame runs out of chakra, his chakra are Bijuu level, and exceed Bijuu level if he absorbs others chakra. So yes, Kisame can casually spam out Suiton.


Now we're getting somewhere. Kisame can't form handseals fast enough before Deidara throws a handfull of these, which home in. Deidara can also, with all the time he wants up there, use C2, the dragon literally hurls bombs out of his mouth, when used in combination with landmines, they are extremely deadly and can't be dodged.


> They slow down to such an extent that Kisame literally chops them in half via Samehada. (Deidara's bombs contain chakra and can be negated by Samehada, as indicated by Sasuke detecting Nanobomb chakra with his Sharingan, and could react accordingly)




Kisame is chopping something this small in half with Samehada?




> The shockwave alone will not even gain Kisame's attention, let alone hurt him, be real, the guy has far above average durability.


Which is based on your assumption of Kisame tanking Hirudora.


> Mmkay.
> 
> Kisame clearly absorbed chakra directly from Gyuki, as Gyuki was out of chakra and couldn't bring Bee back up, there's no way that 2 V2 cloaks and a couple of V1 cloaks are the extent of Gyuki's chakra, Kisame clearly absorbed chakra DIRECTLY from Gyuki, as he was out of chakra.


Can you provide a scan for this, or clarify?
Also, Bee could have clearly used another cloak which got absorbed, a lot of the battle happened off panel, with other shit in between iirc.



> Except it won't, suggesting that Kisame dies to a slow ass fuck C1 bomb is ridiculous, he can easily far outrun them while still continuing to bombard Deidara with everything hes got.


Kisame's speed feats again, right he doesn't have any.


> Fuck Tobi, Kisame's durability far exceeds Tobi's durability, who has no durability feats.


But, durability doesn't stop you from being knocked back.
Maybe person X can take a punch. But if you give him a shove, he'll still get pushed back.


> Look, you're the one who said Deidara can match Kisame in CQC, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.


Because you said that argument was trash.


> BoS Naruto is far below Kisame's IQ and battle intelligence overall, it's like comparing Shukaku to Genin Naruto, they're so far apart in that department it's not even funny.


What are Kisame's intelligence feats? I'm aware of his DB stat(3.5), but DB stats have been retconned before.



> Deidara also knew exactly what was going to happen with 3TS Sasuke, and prepped in advance for it.


There's no evidence that he prepped in advance for it. In fact, Sasuke caught him off guard with a genjutsu, this shocked Deidara since he had specifically trained his eye for this, Deidara clone feinted him with Sasuke point blank, right there, with Sharingan active.


> Kisame's reactions far exceed Sasuke's, Kisame is a master swordsman, a skill that requires insane reaction times. He was also able to dodge AND counter a 3 way speed blitz in the Bee fight, clearly showing his vastly superior CQC skills in comparison to V1 Bee. And V1 Bee almost one shotted a SUPERIOR version of Sasuke.


The 3 way blitz, two people were fodder, not worth mentioning, as when I brought up C1 one shotting fodder, you dismissed it.

Sakura is a medic, medics are trained to evade attacks, Sakura has god tier reactions confirmed. 
Rather, Kisame relies on his brute strength and the chakra absorption abilities of Samehada, we've never seen a good Kenjutsu feat from him (like ttwirling around his sword and all that crazy ass stuff Sasuke does).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> hat fodder Ninja (can't even remember his name)


It was clearly Killer Bee who said this, i've linked the panel multiple times, this is emphasized by the fact that the arrow was pointing towards KB, and the fact that he ends it with "ya fool" basically proves it's KB, not some fodder.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Are you fucking kidding me?
> You are literally saying that flipping over an island is not a good feat. You can't be serious right now.
> Having enough force to even be able to shift an island is already a good feat, a giant ass turtle's mass >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kisame.



Agree to disagree I guess, obviously the turtle islands mass far exceeds Kisame, but I don't consider flipping turtle island over with NO visible damage done to it a good feat, a casual ST, Hirudora etc could replicate that.



PhantomSage said:


> CS2 Wing isn't FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR below Kisame's, it tanked a V1 jin's attack with no diff, this leads me to believe it should be able to tank slightly stronger attacks given it tanked a slightly weaker one with NO DIFF. If Sasuke had his wing, he probably would have been able to withstand the attack, same how Kisame used Samehada to partially absorb the impact of a Lariat.



Yes CS2 wing is far below Kisame's durability. Can you imagine if CS2 Sasuke tried to tank Hirudora? 

The kid would be fucking dust.



PhantomSage said:


> Baseless statement, we don't know how much prep time it needs. But Deidara has all the time he has up on his bird, literally dodging Kisame's Suitons with neg diff.



Love the way you ignored me saying (based on the speed at which the fight will flow) 4 or 5 seconds is the difference between life and death in a battle of this magnitude.

And like I said, if Kisame knows he can reach or hit Deidara, he simply spawns dome.



PhantomSage said:


> Even without him being hopped up of Hachibi chakra?
> @Bold, this is 100% baseless, provide scans for this, *in my mind *of the size scaling, I see Waterdome more or less equal to Bunta's size.
> 
> 
> Are you implying that Deidara can't see water rising and accelerate upwards when he reacted to Hebi Sasuke's blitz which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kisame's speed? His bird literally avoided something with the speed of Gaara's sand.



Bold is why I don't give a shit.

I see Waterdome as gargantuan, far above any boss summon (bar maybe Manda II) in size.

We can circle this, so lets just agree to disagree.

Deidara can also not fly upwards fast enough to avoid the manifestation of waterdome, an attack that he knows nothing about, as Kisame has shown to manifest it nearly instantly.



PhantomSage said:


> Which he doesn't need to, the homing ability will lock in again.



Not addressing this a third time.




PhantomSage said:


> He's not gonna be swimming away from multiple C1 fish forever, is he? The AOE of the C1 explosions doesn't require the fish to catch up, just requires them to get close enough. Deidara can also sneak up fish on him, in such a large dome, Kisame isn't going to be paying attention to every side. He did do this to the 3 tails.



What i'm saying is, the homing ability of C1 can be exploited by Kisame, as they'd be chasing him constantly, but he's faster so they'll never catch him, while he proceeds to hammer Deidara 

C1 will never even get close enough to Kisame to be relevant.



PhantomSage said:


> Prove Orochimaru's vast chakra reserves?



In a failing body, he was able to use Oral Rebirth 3 times against Naruto, an ability that Sasuke could only accomplish once is a healthy body.

He's also experimented on himself, do you really think he hasn't worked on his own chakra reserves over the years? 



PhantomSage said:


> So where did 10 tails of the most potent chakra in the world go?



Samehada clearly was holding a large amount of it, as it was able to revive Bee with chakra alone




PhantomSage said:


> Basically, the extreme amounts of chakra immediately started regenning him, allowing him to survive. It's the same with Kabuto taking a Rasengan, he said himself that he anticipated it and already began moving chakra to the location to help heal it, except 10 tails of Bijuu chakra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kabuto.



Difference is Kabuto outright stated this.

Samehada was immediately seperated from Kisame upon impact, therefore it had no time to heal him, Samehada cannot heal in advance, only injuries that have already been sustained 



PhantomSage said:


> You sure Gai just didn't do it because *he specifically told Kisame not to move a muscle?*
> Gai feeling he's a threat =/= Kisame actually still being a threat
> What? Is Gai a sensor now? He can detect health and chakra amounts?



Your shit ass opinion does not dwarf the actions taking by Gai.




PhantomSage said:


> Now we're getting somewhere. Kisame can't form handseals fast enough before Deidara throws a handfull of these, which home in. Deidara can also, with all the time he wants up there, use C2, the dragon literally hurls bombs out of his mouth, when used in combination with landmines, they are extremely deadly and can't be dodged.



So you think...Deidara can throw his bombs, have them fall to Kisame and form the handseal to detonate them...before Kisame can form 2 handseals? You're joking right?



PhantomSage said:


> Kisame is chopping something this small in half with Samehada?



Love the way you've ignored half of my argument, but this stuck out for me big time.

You ignored that Deidaras bombs actually do contain chakra as per Sasuke's own words. Therefore Samehada negates them.

As for saying cutting them in half, an exageration.



PhantomSage said:


> hich is based on your assumption of Kisame tanking Hirudora.



Something only a handful of people can do in base.



PhantomSage said:


> Can you provide a scan for this, or clarify?
> Also, Bee could have clearly used another cloak which got absorbed, a lot of the battle happened off panel, with other shit in between iirc.





Gyuki out of chakra, as per his own statement.



PhantomSage said:


> Kisame's speed feats again, right he doesn't have any.



You do realize he's practically a literal shark underwater and was able to casually outswim Bee easily...




PhantomSage said:


> Because you said that argument was trash.



And I explained why it was trash...moving on.



PhantomSage said:


> What are Kisame's intelligence feats? I'm aware of his DB stat(3.5), but DB stats have been retconned before.



I've said Kisame's analytical abilities in COMBAT are on par with Itachi and Kakashi. You put words in my mouth as usual.


You've cherry picked almost my entire argument, i've laid out exactly why Kisame wins, and you have no more counters, as all of your "arguments" are contradictory (big example comes from Deidara being able to drop bombs on Kisame before Kisame can react, despite being high enough in the air to avoid waterdome)  

Your entire argument is unsatisfactory and actually made me laugh out loud as I was reading it

You have no more counter arguments, you just don't want to admit you're wrong, you've circled the same arguments i've already addressed (As usual) which clearly signals you're out of arguments.

This debate is done, Kisame is the clear victor, if you respond to this with arguments i've addressed already, i'm throwing you on ignore.

Bring something fresh to the table, or concede


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> You've cherry picked almost my entire argument


The hypocritism is really disgusting, it makes me want to puke.
I'll address your arguments, but I'll just say as for the quote below


> You have no more counter arguments, you just don't want to admit you're wrong, you've circled the same arguments i've already addressed (As usual) which clearly signals you're out of arguments.


I think I'll take more value in the opinions of WS, HoN, and Uchiha, those are the ones you said that you don't hate lol, they are all siding with me.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Agree to disagree I guess, obviously the turtle islands mass far exceeds Kisame, but I don't consider flipping turtle island over with NO visible damage done to it a good feat, a casual ST, Hirudora etc could replicate that.


Right, flipping over an island is not an example of force from a damage. Do you hear this guy right now?


> Yes CS2 wing is far below Kisame's durability. Can you imagine if CS2 Sasuke tried to tank Hirudora?
> 
> The kid would be fucking dust.


Again, based off of pure bias. Concession accepted.


> Love the way you ignored me saying (based on the speed at which the fight will flow) 4 or 5 seconds is the difference between life and death in a battle of this magnitude.
> 
> And like I said, if Kisame knows he can reach or hit Deidara, he simply spawns dome.


Love the way you ignore that Deidara can just shit all over Suitons, he can fly as high as he can and prep C3 in peace.


> Bold is why I don't give a shit.
> 
> *I see* Waterdome as gargantuan, far above any boss summon (bar maybe Manda II) in size.
> 
> ...


Bold is why I don't give a shit either.
Waterdome with biju chakra dwarfed a forest. Gamabunta replicated this.





In fact, it doesn't even look like Waterdome is fully out of the forest, but still in denial of the manga, are you? 


> Not addressing this a third time.


Sure, because your argument is invalid.


> What i'm saying is, the homing ability of C1 can be exploited by Kisame, as they'd be chasing him constantly, but he's faster so they'll never catch him, while he proceeds to hammer Deidara
> 
> C1 will never even get close enough to Kisame to be relevant.



Yes it will, these are fucking fish we're talking about, the only reason Kisame was able to outrace Bee was due to his shark like design, which is shared with fish.

The double standard is real, you call me out for cherrypicking my argument, which I haven't done, yet you conveniently AGAIN ignore the fact that I said that Deidara can sneak up a fish on him. 



> In a failing body, he was able to use Oral Rebirth 3 times against Naruto, an ability that Sasuke could only accomplish once is a healthy body.
> 
> He's also experimented on himself, do you really think he hasn't worked on his own chakra reserves over the years?



Okay, whatevs.



> Difference is Kabuto outright stated this.
> 
> Samehada was immediately seperated from Kisame upon impact, therefore it had no time to heal him, Samehada cannot heal in advance, only injuries that have already been sustained


Prove this, especially since you like to wank the hell out of Samehada's intelligence? You are also conveniently ignoring the fact that Samehada could have transfered Gyuki chakra to him way before this, since bijuu chakra was absorbed from Bee way before he got hit by a lariat.



> Your shit ass opinion does not dwarf the actions taking by Gai.


However, common sense does.


> So you think...Deidara can throw his bombs, have them fall to Kisame and form the handseal to detonate them...before Kisame can form 2 handseals? You're joking right?


Kisame's going to use Daikodan to counter tiny balls that he has no knowledge on? You're joking right? 


> *Love the way you've ignored half of my argument, but this stuck out for me big time.*
> 
> You ignored that Deidaras bombs actually do contain chakra as per Sasuke's own words. Therefore Samehada negates them.
> 
> As for saying cutting them in half, an exageration.


@Bold, like you enjoy saying, Pot calls kettle black.
Deidara's bombs contain chakra, it's infused within it, it won't be absorbed by Samehada, I'll counter this further down.
Love how you're ignoring the fact that the clay bombs are tiny and spammed, Samehada can't cover all of them. Once Samehada touches them, the bombs detonate, flipping an island suggests it can easily knock Samehada out of Kisame's hands, knocking out a bijuu suggests it will probably one shot Kisame as well.



> Gyuki out of chakra, as per his own statement.


Not countering this again.
Kisame absorbed at LEAST 10 tails worth of bijuu chakra, Gyuki definitely still has some chakra, but he's pretty sapped, wouldn't you say?
Also, cherrypicking again, you didn't adress the fact that lots  of the battle happened off panel, more free bijuu chakra could have been sucked.


Troyse22 said:


> You do realize he's practically a literal shark underwater and was able to casually outswim Bee easily...



You do realize the C1 are literally fish and so tiny that they'd be able to take Kisame from behind easily, right?


> And I explained why it was trash...moving on.





> I've said Kisame's analytical abilities in COMBAT are on par with Itachi and Kakashi. You put words in my mouth as usual.


Same thing, referring to intelligence in the NBD is usually referring to analytical skills, the two are usually mutually inclusive anyways. 

Also, didn't provide a single intelligence/combat analysis feat. Nice strawman


> You've cherry picked almost my entire argument, i've laid out exactly why Kisame wins, and you have no more counters, as all of your "arguments" are contradictory (big example comes from Deidara being able to drop bombs on Kisame before Kisame can react, despite being high enough in the air to avoid waterdome)
> 
> Your entire argument is unsatisfactory and actually made me laugh out loud as I was reading it
> 
> ...



Like I said, I'll value the opinions of @WorldsStrongest, @HandfullofNaruto, @UchihaX28 over your clearly biased opinion, these are the three people you said don't carry bias against you.
Oh, @DaVizWiz also.
It also doesn't help your case the the people biased against you also disagree with you case.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> You've cherry picked almost my entire argument, i've laid out exactly why Kisame wins, and you have no more counters, as all of your "arguments" are contradictory (big example comes from Deidara being able to drop bombs on Kisame before Kisame can react, despite being high enough in the air to avoid waterdome)


As for this, Deidara can detonate his bombs whenever he likes, Samehada isn't absorbing the chakra literally infused inside the clay faster than Deidara can form the handseal for Katsu.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
@HandfullofNaruto
@UchihaX28
@WorldsStrongest
@emanthespriggan1234
@DaVizWiz
@cctr9

The above are the people that agree with me. The majority of them are not biased against you that I know of.

Tagging some other folks, who do you guys think won this debate?
@The All Unknowing
@Empathy
@Drake
@Matty
@t0xeus


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @HandfullofNaruto
> @UchihaX28
> @WorldsStrongest
> @emanthespriggan1234
> ...



Don't remember seeing HoN in here.

Uchiha is lately, a poster of laughably terrible quality (as of late, I don't know what happened, he went from a legit poster to nothing in the span of a week)

Eman dislikes me, as I do him, he can't give an unbiased opinion to save his life when it comes to me.

Same with cctr9

Only opinions there I can even come close to respecting due to them not being biased are HoN and Viz

I don't even respect your shit ass opinion, you changed your sig and avatar to Deidara and then called me out in a Kisame vs Deidara thread, claiming I'M biased. Fucking hypocrite.

And you're so full of it, anyone who can read a sig knows how things stand between me and Emas, Cctr9, i don't care about their opinions, I don't even remotely value them on the most minimal scale.


Anyone who reads my final argument/s and is not biased can clearly see Kisame wins

Hell, a mod had to intervene against cctr9 just to get him to stop trolling me, to suggest he has no bias against me is garbage


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Don't remember seeing HoN in here.


He repped me and gave a comment that basically says he agrees.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> He repped me and gave a comment that basically says he agrees.



Well, he didn't comment or give a valid argument, so his opinion is disregarded, despite me respecting it.

An unsubstantiated argument is not an argument at all.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> opinion, you changed your sig and avatar to Deidara and then called me out in a Kisame vs Deidara thread



I'll let you contemplate this. Seriously man, think about this. Calling me biased for having a deidara avatar.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Well, he didn't comment or give a valid argument, so his opinion is disregarded, despite me respecting it.
> 
> An unsubstantiated argument is not an argument at all.


Alright then, we'll see what the people Ive tagged had had to say. I assume the other ones I did hold no bias against you?

Also ignored Worlds, his posts are always filled with manga links, and you conceded to him in the other thread iirc.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I'll let you contemplate this. Seriously man, think about this. Calling me biased for having a deidara avatar.



I know what I said, it's just SUDDENLY you have a Deidara avatar and then a Kisame vs Deidara matchup comes up by you, with you specifically calling me out.

Nothing wrong with having an avatar to show that's your favorite.

There's something wrong with these callouts, especially when they're some of Kisame's worst matchups.


I've said before on multiple occasions, the only ones who can put Kisame down for good with Samehada are the trascendent tiers+ with a handful of exceptions (Sasori being one, and Kisame is easily 3 tiers above him)

Deidara does not fall into this category of exceptions as per my reasoning in my arguments.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Alright then, we'll see what the people Ive tagged had had to say. I assume the other ones I did hold no bias against you?
> 
> Also ignored Worlds, his posts are always filled with manga links, and you conceded to him in the other thread iirc.



Nothing wrong with conceding when provided with compelling evidence that changes your view.

Maybe you should take notes.

Open your mind, you might learn a thing or two.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I know what I said, it's just SUDDENLY you have a Deidara avatar and then a Kisame vs Deidara matchup comes up by you, with you specifically calling me out.
> 
> Nothing wrong with having an avatar to show that's your favorite.
> 
> ...


Alright then, it was a coincedence that i changed my av and sig.

I guess you could interpret my first post in here as rude, frankly, I don't care, I never directly insulted you 
I never said
"Troyse is an Etc.... or Troyse is so full of ..."

I just said bias a lot, you jump in here, with insults like I'm trash and crap when Ive never directly insulted you. 

Same thing happened in the restructure thread, I just tried to provide a legitimate explanation,you disliked and starting lashing out atme.Srsly

Also, you mean borderline top and god toer when you say transcendent? just asking since tier names in tier lists are different for most.


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 18, 2016)

I refuse to read the entire debate since half way down to the comment box I see stuff like this. 





Troyse22 said:


> Anyone who reads my final argument/s and is not biased can clearly see Kisame wins





Troyse22 said:


> I don't even respect your shit ass opinion, you changed your sig and avatar to Deidara and then called me out in a Kisame vs Deidara thread, claiming I'M biased. Fucking hypocrite.





Troyse22 said:


> You've cherry picked almost my entire argument


what??^


Troyse22 said:


> C1, it did no damage to turtle island, all it did was roll it over, that's not a feat worth hyping up.





Troyse22 said:


> The shockwave alone will not even gain Kisame's attention, let alone hurt him, be real, the guy has far above average durability. Good? Moving on.


___________________


Troyse22 said:


> Well, he didn't comment or give a valid argument, so his opinion is disregarded, despite me respecting it. An unsubstantiated argument is not an argument at all.


Earlier in this thread you said that I agree with you in order to strengthen your argument and now that I may agree with him it's just worth shit. I don't care much about this thread but here are your words Troyse22: "It takes massive DC to defeat someone like Kisame" 

Deidara capitalizes on DC more than any other shinobi. Deidara takes this battle Medium Difficulty, explosions counter his Regeneration & Doton > Suiton.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Also, you mean borderline top and god toer when you say transcendent



Yes

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I refuse to read the entire debate since half way down to the comment box I see stuff like this.



Then your opinion is irrelevant.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> As for this, Deidara can detonate his bombs whenever he likes, Samehada isn't absorbing the chakra literally infused inside the clay faster than Deidara can form the handseal for Katsu.
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________________
> ...


It's like I said in my first post. I can't honestly call Deidara STRONGER than Kisame. But I do believe Deidara would BEAT Kisame. It's a matchup in Deidara's favor. Though Kisame can defeat shinobi that Deidara couldn't too. Deidara takes to the sky and Kisame is SOL. Kisame can spit up his water bubble, but Deidara would just fly out of range and throw the fish bombs in there that he smashed 3-tails with. Kisame's strength comes from CQC. If he's not in a position to hit an opponent to take chakra as well as to deal damage, his hands are pretty well tied


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> It's like I said in my first post. I can't honestly call Deidara STRONGER than Kisame. But I do believe Deidara would BEAT Kisame. It's a matchup in Deidara's favor. Though Kisame can defeat shinobi that Deidara couldn't too. Deidara takes to the sky and Kisame is SOL. Kisame can spit up his water bubble, but Deidara would just fly out of range and throw the fish bombs in there that he smashed 3-tails with. Kisame's strength comes from CQC. If he's not in a position to hit an opponent to take chakra as well as to deal damage, his hands are pretty well tied


I agree. the title was just bad wording on my part.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Then your opinion is irrelevant.


My opinion on your debate with PhantomSage may be irrelevant (I never took a stance on that) but my reasons for ignoring it are valid. The fact that there was that much rubbish just seen by my peripheral vision means that it is not worth reading & that the majority of it is going to be full of statements like those.. I usually enjoy debating with you and I enjoy calling you out on the rather weak arguments you bring up but this is ridiculous.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> My opinion on your debate with PhantomSage may be irrelevant (I never took a stance on that) but my reasons for ignoring it are valid. The fact that there was that much rubbish just seen by my peripheral vision means that it is not worth reading & that the majority of it is going to be full of statements like those.. I usually enjoy debating with you and I enjoy calling you out on the rather weak arguments you bring up but this is ridiculous.


since you're here at the moment. I'm curious since your opinion was mentioned earlier. Do you think Samehada can absorb an explosive?


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> since you're here at the moment. I'm curious since your opinion was mentioned earlier. Do you think Samehada can absorb an explosive?


I  know you asked HoN but lol ill just drop in my opinion.

Ive rebutted what troyse said about this, plus, even if what he said was true, C1 are round shaoed and have showcased the ability to move, they can easily avoid Samehada. Deidara detonates island busting, bijuu damaging C1 near Kisame. gg


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

@Matty 

Lol i actually based the format of this off of one of Izaya's many walls of text. I'm not like Izaya in the sens that I won't keep writing essays when I feel like Ive proved my point enough.Which I think I have.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I  know you asked HoN but lol ill just drop in my opinion.
> 
> Ive rebutted what troyse said about this, plus, even if what he said was true, C1 are round shaoed and have showcased the ability to move, they can easily avoid Samehada. Deidara detonates island busting, bijuu damaging C1 near Kisame. gg


and that's just one reason it wouldn't work. They're bombs, not chakra attacks. Plus, they can just detonate right before Samehada touches them. The argument is flawed in so many ways


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> My opinion on your debate with PhantomSage may be irrelevant (I never took a stance on that) but my reasons for ignoring it are valid. The fact that there was that much rubbish just seen by my peripheral vision means that it is not worth reading & that the majority of it is going to be full of statements like those.. I usually enjoy debating with you and I enjoy calling you out on the rather weak arguments you bring up but this is ridiculous.







The All Unknowing said:


> and that's just one reason it wouldn't work. They're bombs, not chakra attacks. Plus, they can just detonate right before Samehada touches them. The argument is flawed in so many way



Samehada cannot absorb the explosions after they've detonated.

However since they require chakra to activate AS PROVEN BY SASUKE, if Samehada strikes them before they detonate, it will absorb the chakra out of them, rendering them useless.

As for Samehada not being able to strike them, garbage argument, C1 does not have crazy reflexive feats or even hype, no amount of C1 wank changes that, Samehada casually strikes them.

Of course, this is all assuming Deidara is alive.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Samehada cannot absorb the explosions after they've detonated.
> 
> However since they require chakra to activate AS PROVEN BY SASUKE, if Samehada strikes them before they detonate, it will absorb the chakra out of them, rendering them useless.
> 
> ...


no, the Sasuke fight didn't prove they needed chakra to activate. It only proved that it was an earth element attack that was vulnerable to his lightning. Similarly, Samehada can't absorb Onoki's Stone Golem, but it would still be weak to lightning

but regardless, even if we can't agree on this point. If he surrounded him with the explosive fish and just detonated them before he could touch 'em, Kisame's still done for


----------



## Sapherosth (Nov 18, 2016)

You guys are ruthless. 



Personally I think Kisame wins, and I can probably give some valid reasons to it too. But this is just some next level shit that I am not really interested in getting involved with.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You guys are ruthless.
> 
> ever since Trump got elected, the BD has been much more aggressive


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

@Sapherosth 

What do you mean by next level shit?


----------



## Sapherosth (Nov 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @Sapherosth
> 
> What do you mean by next level shit?




figure of speech. It's basically me saying the entire argument so far is too heated to get involved with.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> figure of speech. It's basically me saying the entire argument so far is too heated to get involved with.


Gotcha


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> figure of speech. It's basically me saying the entire argument so far is too heated to get involved with.


I can't speak for everyone, but I don't give a shit if you prove me wrong. I'm not so arrogant as to think I can't be proven wrong. But I'm genuinely curious how Kisame could beat him in this situation


----------



## HandfullofNaruto (Nov 18, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> since you're here at the moment. I'm curious since your opinion was mentioned earlier. Do you think Samehada can absorb an explosive?


If the explosion were entirely chakra based then _maybe_.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 19, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If the explosion were entirely chakra based then _maybe_.



Example: Rasengan is typically described as explosive DC, but Samehada would casually absorb it.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 19, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> @Turrin he only struggled against Roshi because of the lava style, Samehada has issues with heated chakra and it would no doubt vaporize some of his water techniques if you consider the fact Gai's Morning Peacock did.


Which is my point. If Kisame goes up against an enemy where he has a difficult time absorbing chakra, then he's overall level is much lower. Versus when he does absorb a large quantity of chakra his level is much higher.



> Against Gai he did absorb a lot of Killer Bee's chakra, but he was also starved for multiple days in a cramped blade without sleep and didn't mould chakra during that entire time, and looked weak as shit by the end of it.


He didn't look weak until Samehada stole his chakra, which he then stole back ontop of absorb nearly all of B's Chakra and Aoba's chakra. Then on-top of that he had the topographic advantage of fighting in the middle of an ocean.

It's ridiculous to believe that abilities Kisame demonstrated in that scenario are representative of what he's able to do w/o absorbing chakra and on a neutral battlefield.



> . Overall, Kisame is superior, even if you give Deidara the slight Ninjutsu edge he can't compare in many of the other shinobi categories, Kisame is an above average kage at almost every category that a shinobi is graded upon, he has very few weaknesses.


He obviously can compare in many categories. From the Data-book alone we know:

Deidara is superior in Genjutsu
Deidara is superior in Intelligence
Deidara is superior in Ninjutsu
Deidara is superior in Speed
Deidara is comparable in Hand-Seals

While Kisame is only better in Strength, Taijutsu, and Stamina



> I challenge you to provide multiple scenarios in which Kisame would be incapable of matching or exceeding Deidara's results, on a battlefield, infiltrating a village, and in a kage level small skirmish battle.


Deidara was able to cause difficulty for PII-Kakashi and Naruto, down an arm and with next to no clay, while Itachi stated Kisame would struggle with PI-Kakashi. So I think it's fair to say Kisame with handicaps as steep as Deidara would have performed worse against Naruto and Kakashi.

I also don't think Kisame would have performed nearly as well against Gaara, as given the fact that Madara's HG Realm couldn't absorb Gaara's Sand, then Samehada likely can't do the same. Considering Kisame struggled with the much weaker Roshi when he had trouble stealing chakra, I must imagine he would loose to Gaara in the desert, let alone if he was handicapped like Deidara was (low on clay).

In general against any enemy Kisame can't readily steal chakra from I see him performing worse then Deidara.

The scenario's where Kisame could do better is against enemies that knew Deidara's weakness to Raiton and exploited it, like Hebi-Sasuke and the Ambush Squad. Or in scenario's where Kisame can absorb a large quantity of chakra.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 19, 2016)

Im confused as to why i was tagged again, i gave my opinion already, Deidara wins due to a shit matchup for kisame, its really that simple. Ive already given reasoning as well, so people know where i stand, and know why i stand there.

And id rather not to just post another wall of text explaining the exact same thing the exact same way, but im glad to restate my opinion more concisely.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Matty (Nov 19, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @Matty
> 
> Lol i actually based the format of this off of one of Izaya's many walls of text. I'm not like Izaya in the sens that I won't keep writing essays when I feel like Ive proved my point enough.Which I think I have.



Nah I was just messing, man lol. I have just seen his Orochimaru in depth analysis so much that I thought of him instantly. You pose a good thread though and provide good backup so keep that up

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 19, 2016)

> Which is my point. If Kisame goes up against an enemy where he has a difficult time absorbing chakra, then he's overall level is much lower. Versus when he does absorb a large quantity of chakra his level is much higher.


The same can be said for Deidara, if he goes up against a raiton user (Kakuzu, Gin/Kin, Sasuke, 3rd Raikage, Kakashi) his power scale is significantly weakened.



> He didn't look weak until Samehada stole his chakra, which he then stole back ontop of absorb nearly all of B's Chakra and Aoba's chakra. Then on-top of that he had the topographic advantage of fighting in the middle of an ocean.


He was practically skin and bones prior to absorbing Killer Bee's chakra.

The location avantage didn't mean much, he could've just spit out a lake himself. More or less irrelevant considering Gai is one of the worst matchups for Kisame in the entire manga considering his speed and the fact the only attack he has a chance against him with is countered fundamentally by Afternoon Tiger.

Overall, that may be one of the worst matchups for a legit battle between any two characters.



> It's ridiculous to believe that abilities Kisame demonstrated in that scenario are representative of what he's able to do w/o absorbing chakra and on a neutral battlefield.


I understand where some people come from when they say not really. He's been called the bijuu without a tail by another shinobi who knew his abilities well, he called himself it, he's been called a monster by other shinobi.



> Deidara is superior in Genjutsu
> Deidara is superior in Intelligence
> Deidara is superior in Ninjutsu
> Deidara is superior in Speed
> Deidara is comparable in Hand-Seals


He has no Genjutsu

He was tactically outplayed by a shinobi ranked an entire point lower in intelligence (Hebi Sasuke- 3.5) and is the reason why he lost to him; If you think Pre-Pain arc 15 year old Sakura is smarter than Kisame (4 to 3.5), or Hebi Sasuke for that matter, you're not very smart, 3.5 for Kisame in intelligence is a gross underestimation

His speed is not good consideirng he admitted Hebi Sasuke was too fast for him and that was the reason why he opted to use C2 Dragon and fly several hundred meters above him, while Kisame handled V1 Killer Bee, a significantly faster and more skilled shinobi than 3-toma Sasuke- on ground zero

Hand seals are irrelvant in this manga



> While Kisame is only better in Strength, Taijutsu, and Stamina


Correction- significantly better.

Databook stats don't mean much when you evaluate them all together, they're inconsistent with what is displayed in the manga.

Kisame has a higher databook score overall, the databook doesn't cover all skills of the shinobi, such as durability, weapon skills, experience, which Kisame is superior in

Not to mention *portrayal*, which Kisame wins by a significant degree

That being, apparently, your favorite category as it pertains to the strength of a shinobi



> Deidara was able to cause difficulty for PII-Kakashi and Naruto, down an arm and with next to no clay, while Itachi stated Kisame would struggle with PI-Kakashi. So I think it's fair to say Kisame with handicaps as steep as Deidara would have performed worse against Naruto and Kakashi.


Kisame nearly defeated Killer Bee, a high kage level - with limited knowledge, and pushed Gai to the 7th Gate without Samehada.



> I also don't think Kisame would have performed nearly as well against Gaara, as given the fact that Madara's HG Realm couldn't absorb Gaara's Sand, then Samehada likely can't do the same. Considering Kisame struggled with the much weaker Roshi when he had trouble stealing chakra, I must imagine he would loose to Gaara in the desert, let alone if he was handicapped like Deidara was (low on clay).


I disagree, water innately counters sand, Waterdome is a virtual one shot against Gaara who cannot manipulate or constrain with sand inside a lake as is Daikodan which without knowledge one shots a Gaara who canonically doesn't attempt to avoid attacks with speed, only blocking with defensive sand.



> In general against any enemy Kisame can't readily steal chakra from I see him performing worse then Deidara.


Kisame without Samehada performs better against all the high level raiton users like 3rd Raikage, Kakashi, Sasuke, Kakuzu, etc.

I already stated without Samehada he's below Deidara.



> The scenario's where Kisame could do better is against enemies that knew Deidara's weakness to Raiton and exploited it, like Hebi-Sasuke and the Ambush Squad. Or in scenario's where Kisame can absorb a large quantity of chakra.


Of course he does.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 19, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If the explosion were entirely chakra based then _maybe_.


word. But specifically in this fight, Deidara's clay explosives


----------



## Turrin (Nov 19, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> The same can be said for Deidara, if he goes up against a raiton user (Kakuzu, Gin/Kin, Sasuke, 3rd Raikage, Kakashi) his power scale is significantly weakened.


I don't disagree with this



> He was practically skin and bones prior to absorbing Killer Bee's chakra.


Because Samehada had absorbed his chakra, which he then absorbed back + B's + Aoba's



> The location avantage didn't mean much, he could've just spit out a lake himself. More or less irrelevant considering


Kisame wouldn't have mentioned the topographic advantage if it didn't have an impact. And while Kisame can generate a large water source even when one doesn't exist, it's nowhere near the level of an entire Ocean.



> Gai is one of the worst matchups for Kisame in the entire manga considering his speed and the fact the only attack he has a chance against him with is countered fundamentally by Afternoon Tiger.


Copy- _Which is my point. If Kisame goes up against an enemy where he has a difficult time absorbing chakra, then he's overall level is much lower. Versus when he does absorb a large quantity of chakra his level is much higher._ -Paste



> He has no Genjutsu


We don't know the full scope of Deidara's arsenal. The fact that he's above average in Genjutsu suggest that he likely can use Genjutsu 



> He was tactically outplayed by a shinobi ranked an entire point lower in intelligence (Hebi Sasuke- 3.5) and is the reason why he lost to him; If you think Pre-Pain arc 15 year old Sakura is smarter than Kisame (4 to 3.5), or Hebi Sasuke for that matter, you're not very smart, 3.5 for Kisame in intelligence is a gross underestimation


That Shinobi also had Sharingan to enhance his insight drastically. And i'm not going to argue against the author about his own manga. If he says these characters are more intelligent then they are, end of story.



> His speed is not good consideirng he admitted Hebi Sasuke was too fast for him and that was the reason why he opted to use C2 Dragon and fly several hundred meters above him, while Kisame handled V1 Killer Bee, a significantly faster and more skilled shinobi than 3-toma Sasuke- on ground zero


Kisame didn't handled B, Samehada was the one reacting, and that was after doping up on Hachibi Chakra itself while siphoning off B's chakra. I.E. Samehada became stronger and B became weaker in those clashes.



> Hand seals are irrelvant in this manga


No they aren't, they are irrelevant in certain situations against certain opponents, but if you wish to speak within that context then Kisame's physical strength and taijutsu is largely irrelevant against an enemy like Deidara, which are like his only two areas he's superior to Deidara in besides Stamina.



> Kisame has a higher databook score overall,


Overall scores were made up by fans. The Data-books stats are meant to be used to compare characters in specific areas, in which we can see Deidara is better then Kisame in more areas, than reverse. Granted Kisame has some areas where he's much better than Deidara, but your statement was that Deidara can't compare in many of categories, hence me sighting that indeed he can.



> the databook doesn't cover all skills of the shinobi, such as durability, weapon skills, experience, which Kisame is superior in


The only thing the Data-book doesn't cover for Kisame is Samehada. But then the Data-book doesn't cover the abilities that Deidara' Claymations can grant him, such as high-speed movement through water, air, ground, etc... It also doesn't count the users Ninjutsu itself just the skill the user has in the art, but Deidara's Ninjutsu is superior to Kisame's anyway.

Durability is cover in physical power. Weapons skill is covered in Taijutsu. Experience is covered in the knowledge portion of intelligence.



> Not to mention *portrayal*, which Kisame wins by a significant degree


No it doesn't. It was stated Kisame would have a tough time with PI-Kakashi and had a tough time with Roshi. On the flip side of this Deidara took Hebi-Sasuke to near death, whose much stronger than both of those individuals. And before you cite Kisame having any disadvantages keep in mind that Hebi-Sasuke was also a very disadvantageous enemy for Deidara. Kisame himself also acknowledge Deidara's strength, saying how strong he was. 



> Kisame nearly defeated Killer Bee, a high kage level - with limited knowledge, and pushed Gai to the 7th Gate without Samehada.


Yeah and he was able to steal a shit ton of chakra during or prior to those battles.



> I disagree, water innately counters sand, Waterdome is a virtual one shot against Gaara who cannot manipulate or constrain with sand inside a lake as is Daikodan which without knowledge one shots a Gaara who canonically doesn't attempt to avoid attacks with speed, only blocking with defensive sand.


Gaara was able to easily manipulate his sand while it was covered by Mei's Giant water dragon, so I don't buy this idea that water prevents Gaara's sand manipulation at all.

And if Gaara could block C3 in Suna, then I have zero doubts he could block a non Chakra Buffed and Non Ocean buffed Kisame's Daikodan.



> Kisame *without Samehada* performs better against all the high level raiton users like 3rd Raikage, Kakashi, Sasuke, Kakuzu, etc.


LOL, no he doesn't. And you can feel free to make the thread.



> I already stated without Samehada he's below Deidara.


So in essence he's bellow Deidara when he can't absorb large quantities of chakra prior or during the battle, which is exactly what I said.


----------



## Serene Grace (Nov 19, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Eman dislikes me, as I do him, he can't give an unbiased opinion to save his life when it comes to me.


I honestly don't remember saying or doing anything that suggested I disliked you @Troyse2, if it was because of that thread where I reminded you about what happened in the pein vs kisame pm, you had it coming as you were insulting  every member who participated in that pm calling them garbage posters and that kind of irritated me( not because of you disrespecting me, but doing it to the other people participating too, annoyed me). So please don't make people believe I have a certain ideology or bias against you because I truly don't. Like I've said to countless members, it would be stupid of me to take debates so seriously, to the point where I start hating or disliking someone because I don't agree with them.

Sidenote: You could keep me on ignore if you want, I don't really care I just wanted to clear up, the me "Hating you, or me being biased against you" thing you keep bringing up.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

@Turrin 

So your viewpoint is that Deidara is overall atronger than Kisame?


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 19, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @Turrin
> 
> So your viewpoint is that Deidara is overall atronger than Kisame?


if you missed it, I suggest you read his first post. It seems his opinion is that it's situational. Deidara wins head to head, but when he's able to absorb chakra, Kisame is stronger. It's harder for me to try to explain than he made it in his first post


----------



## Turrin (Nov 19, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @Turrin
> 
> So your viewpoint is that Deidara is overall atronger than Kisame?





The All Unknowing said:


> if you missed it, I suggest you read his first post. It seems his opinion is that it's situational. Deidara wins head to head, but when he's able to absorb chakra, Kisame is stronger.


This


----------



## Icegaze (Nov 19, 2016)

i was hoping to read an analysis . 
sounds more like a rant. 

point to note though is deidara bombs are quite effective even under water so location doesnt really impede deidara here


----------



## Sapherosth (Nov 19, 2016)

Can I ask why you think the bombs will be effective against Kisame?

Because it was effective on the 3 Tails?

We have plenty of information suggesting that Tailed beasts on their own aren't that strong in the first place, with the exception of the top 2, possibly Hachibi and Kurama.

Not to mention the fact that it was an ambush on 3 Tails + he was slow as hell, due to his size.


Kisame on the other hand will be on guard, will be extremely fast underwater when fused with Samehada so he can EASILY out swim Deidara's bombs. He also has a long-ranged technique that can catch Deidara.

The waterdome can serve as a way for him to chase Deidara when he's flying as well since the waterdome has Kisame as its center.

The only technique that Deidara has that can kill Kisame is his suicide move. C4 wouldn't even work since Kisame can probably absorb its chakra with his technique or Samehada. He absorbs chakra on contact when fused, so it should detonate the C4 bombs on contact. As for all the other bombs, they get dodged or tanked with a water prison around himself which will serve as a shield.


Deidara's clay will run out before Kisame.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Can I ask why you think the bombs will be effective against Kisame?



Deidara's most basic technique knocked out a Bijuu and flipped over an entire island.




> Because it was effective on the 3 Tails?
> 
> We have plenty of information suggesting that Tailed beasts on their own aren't that strong in the first place, with the exception of the top 2, possibly Hachibi and Kurama.
> 
> *Not to mention the fact that it was an ambush on 3 Tails + he was slow as hell, due to his size*.


Yet we haven't seen any fact that contradicts the durability of the 3 Tails. I mean, it's a bijuu, it's oobviously going to have superhuman durability. It also flipped an island.'

@Bold, Deidara can drop in like multiple clay fish, they home in on him, and one can also ambush Kisame from behind or the side.


> Kisame on the other hand will be on guard, will be extremely fast underwater when fused with Samehada so he can EASILY out swim Deidara's bombs.


The bombs dropped in can be fish, s I find it hard to believe that Kisame is going to be outspeeding them that much.
Also, the the above scan, did you see the AOE of that thing?


> He also has a long-ranged technique that can catch Deidara.



He's going to use a water technique inside a dome of water? What?


> The waterdome can serve as a way for him to chase Deidara when he's flying as well since the waterdome has Kisame as its center.


Kisame can't fly, can he?


> The only technique that Deidara has that can kill Kisame is his suicide move.


C2, it completely blew off CS2 Sasuke's wing, which was bale to tank attacks from V1 Naruto with no diff.


> C4 wouldn't even work since Kisame can probably absorb its chakra with his technique or Samehada. He absorbs chakra on contact when fused, so it should detonate the C4 bombs on contact. As for all the other bombs, they get dodged or tanked with a water prison around himself which will serve as a shield.


I've never mentioned C4, I agree with this pretty much.




> The waterdome can serve as a way for him to chase Deidara when he's flying as well since the waterdome has Kisame as its center.


But Deidara can always avoid with his mobility, and just fly above Waterdome. Unless Kisame can fly?


> The only technique that Deidara has that can kill Kisame is his suicide move. C4 wouldn't even work since Kisame can probably absorb its chakra with his technique or Samehada. He absorbs chakra on contact when fused, so it should detonate the C4 bombs on contact. As for all the other bombs, they get dodged or tanked with a water prison around himself which will serve as a shield.



Like Uchiha said, bombs are compressed underwater, making their explosions more powerful.
Are you suggesting Kisame > Bijuu in durability, w/o free bijuu chakra that's worn like a coat?

That's okay, if you believe like troyse that Kisame tanked hirudora.


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 19, 2016)

Saph look back at the previous arguments made please, there's no use restarting the debate.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Can I ask why you think the bombs will be effective against Kisame?
> 
> Because it was effective on the 3 Tails?
> 
> ...


Kisame is called "the tailless tailed beast". Comparing him to a bijuu isn't something unique to this thread. The story did consistently. So it's not illogical to use Deidara defeating a bijuu that was underwater as an example


----------



## Sapherosth (Nov 19, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Deidara's most basic technique knocked out a Bijuu and flipped over an entire island.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet we haven't seen any fact that contradicts the durability of the 3 Tails. I mean, it's a bijuu, it's oobviously going to have superhuman durability. It also flipped an island.'.



It's durability is undermined the moment it got knocked out by Deidara's bombs. Even Gaara's sand is tougher than that Bijuu.

Flipping an island doesn't mean much when it's going to have a hard time hitting Kisame. We've also seen first hand how those explosives work against Gaara's sands.



> @Bold, Deidara can drop in like multiple clay fish, they home in on him, and one can also ambush Kisame from behind or the side.
> 
> The bombs dropped in can be fish, s I find it hard to believe that Kisame is going to be outspeeding them that much.
> Also, the the above scan, did you see the AOE of that thing?



Kisame can sense with Samehada, ambush won't work. The size of Deidara's bombs that he used underwater wasn't that big, so naturally its speed couldn't be compared to Kisame. It's like having a normal goldfish racing a shark.






> He's going to use a water technique inside a dome of water? What?
> 
> Kisame can't fly, can he?



Kisame cannot fly technically, but his waterdome's is pretty huge. It's height is also high as well, and Kisame can swim at the top of it.

I don't see any reason why Kisame cannot use his suiton techniques inside his waterdome. It's not like it can only be used on land.






> But Deidara can always avoid with his mobility, and just fly above Waterdome. Unless Kisame can fly?



He can't fly, but he can move inside the waterdome. Deidara will have to be close enough to use his bombs, and far enough to be out of Kisame's reach. If he's too far he cannot land and if he's too close he'll get hit by suitons. 




> Like Uchiha said, bombs are compressed underwater, making their explosions more powerful.
> Are you suggesting Kisame > Bijuu in durability, w/o free bijuu chakra that's worn like a coat?
> 
> That's okay, if you believe like troyse that Kisame tanked hirudora.



Kisame doesn't have to be as durable, but he can probably take a hit or two but not directly. Like I said, he's too fast under water to be hit by Deidara's bombs and he can always retaliate using his long-ranged suiton. 

Deidara doesn't have unlimited supply of clay you know, and Kisame can easily outlast.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It's durability is undermined the moment it got knocked out by Deidara's bombs. Even Gaara's sand is tougher than that Bijuu.
> 
> Flipping an island doesn't mean much when it's going to have a hard time hitting Kisame. We've also seen first hand how those explosives work against Gaara's sands.


Actually, explosive clay is made from infusing Explosion Release chakra into the clay. It makes sense that Deidara can infuse more chakra if he wants a larger explosion. 

Also, instead of taking that as a durability feat for Gaara's sand, you take it as C1 being weak? Okay.
Gaara's sand does have many respectable durability feats, an example is it taking multiple slashes from PS mokubunshins.


> Kisame can sense with Samehada, ambush won't work. The size of Deidara's bombs that he used underwater wasn't that big, so naturally its speed couldn't be compared to Kisame. It's like having a normal goldfish racing a shark.


Gotcha. Still, it's not like Kisame's going to swim away forever, like I said, have you seen the AOE of that thing? Dropping C3 would OHKO, it's village sized.


> Kisame cannot fly technically, but his waterdome's is pretty huge. It's height is also high as well, and Kisame can swim at the top of it.
> I don't see any reason why Kisame cannot use his suiton techniques inside his waterdome. It's not like it can only be used on land.


Pretty sure Deidara can see Kisame puking water from the sky, and react to it by simply flying higher, especially when he reacted to Hebi Sasuke's blitz.

Kisame can't use Suiton techniques inside Waterdome, because, you know, it'll just merge with the existing water. If swim to the bottom of a pool and spit out lots of water, is it going to go far? Nope. Not at all.

Suitons are also dodged via bird.



> He can't fly, but he can move inside the waterdome. Deidara will have to be close enough to use his bombs, and far enough to be out of Kisame's reach. If he's too far he cannot land and if he's too close he'll get hit by suitons.


Suitons were countered above. He can prep C3 from there, waterdome's literally forest size, Deidara would have to be an autistic to miss that.


> Kisame doesn't have to be as durable, but he can probably take a hit or two but not directly. Like I said, he's too fast under water to be hit by Deidara's bombs and he can always retaliate using his long-ranged suiton.
> 
> Deidara doesn't have unlimited supply of clay you know, and Kisame can easily outlast.


Deidara doesn't need unlimited clay.
Just some C1 bombs, and possibly a C3 like I've said.
He starts with the bird, so that doesn't detract from his clay storage.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Nov 19, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Actually, explosive clay is made from infusing Explosion Release chakra into the clay. It makes sense that Deidara can infuse more chakra if he wants a larger explosion.
> 
> Also, instead of taking that as a durability feat for Gaara's sand, you take it as C1 being weak? Okay.
> Gaara's sand does have many respectable durability feats, an example is it taking multiple slashes from PS mokubunshins.



Gaara's sand feats are pretty inconsistent imo. At one point his mummy defense got broke through by a single yasaka bead. The next minute it can block susano clone slashes (although the clone slashes are weaker than originals).




> Gotcha. Still, it's not like Kisame's going to swim away forever, like I said, have you seen the AOE of that thing? Dropping C3 would OHKO, it's village sized.
> 
> Pretty sure Deidara can see Kisame puking water from the sky, and react to it by simply flying higher, especially when he reacted to Hebi Sasuke's blitz.



While it would be hard to argue for Kisame against C3, the only argument would probably be Daikodan since it has the potential to suck all the chakra and potentially absorb some of the impact. I am pretty sure that C3 will contain plenty of chakra as well.




> Kisame can't use Suiton techniques inside Waterdome, because, you know, it'll just merge with the existing water. If swim to the bottom of a pool and spit out lots of water, is it going to go far? Nope. Not at all.




Not sure why he can't? He used Daikodan under water. It'll just take a different form than normal water.



> Suitons are also dodged via bird.



Not when he gets closed to use his bombs though.




> Suitons were countered above. He can prep C3 from there, waterdome's literally forest size, Deidara would have to be an autistic to miss that.



Pretty sure it's a mountain size, perhaps a little bigger.





> Deidara doesn't need unlimited clay.
> Just some C1 bombs, and possibly a C3 like I've said.
> He starts with the bird, so that doesn't detract from his clay storage.



So far the only thing I am buying that Kisame will have trouble with is C3.


----------



## U mad bro (Nov 19, 2016)

Deidara is a terrible match up for kisame. He doesn't produce jutsu that kisame can easily absorb. C4 would rape. In fact c4 in the scheme is op for the majority of the cast. No magic eyeballs makes it extremely dangerous especially under stealth attacks.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

Also, Kisame has 3x chakra of Kurama, because of a statement by Neji. 
Kisame tnaking Hirudora, an assumption, just because Gai punched Kisame again.

Fucking hilarious.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Gaara's sand feats are pretty inconsistent imo. At one point his mummy defense got broke through by a single yasaka bead. The next minute it can block susano clone slashes (although the clone slashes are weaker than originals).


It's still pretty strong tho. Plus he had like massive amounts of sand that blocked C3.



> While it would be hard to argue for Kisame against C3, the only argument would probably be Daikodan since it has the potential to suck all the chakra and potentially absorb some of the impact. I am pretty sure that C3 will contain plenty of chakra as well.


This is what I have trouble believing. The explosive release is literally infused inside the clay, not sure Daikodan can absorb that, it's pretty sad that it's featless. I would have liked to see more of Daikodan, but it is off topic


> Not sure why he can't? He used Daikodan under water. It'll just take a different form than normal water.


Oh, you were referring to Daikodan, not just regular Suitons. It still gets dodged.


> Not when he gets closed to use his bombs though.


He doesn't have to get that close, Waterdome is literally mountain size as you stated, Deidara's gonna have to be autistic to miss that. He's dropping ants into a pool, not that hard.


> Pretty sure it's a mountain size, perhaps a little bigger.


Exactly.


> So far the only thing I am buying that Kisame will have trouble with is C3.


He definitely will.



lmao Troyse you're checking my fucking age to insult me? 
Okay man, you're older than me, doesn't mean you're more logical when you believe shit like this.


> Kisame right below vote mads and hashi, it's ridiculous.
> Kisame on par with Itachi/Kakashi in combat analysis.
> Kisame beating Pain, Kisame beating EMS Sasuke.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

Lmao, you're hypocritical af.

I'll quote your own words "It's good to concede when you're wrong'

Your argument is cluttered with concession like the vomit photo you posted.
You said that you properly conceded to WS, when you just called his argument garbage and left, because he left one point out of many unaddressed.


Like HoN said, you used his agreement with Samehada's absorption bility to strengthen your point.

But when he might agree with my stance, his opinion immediately becomes unsubstantiated horseshit.
That's trash.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> i was hoping to read an analysis .
> sounds more like a rant.
> 
> point to note though is deidara bombs are quite effective even under water so location doesnt really impede deidara here


Do you agree with my argument tho?


----------



## Troyse22 (Nov 19, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Lol don't stress it man, he literally put me on ignore because I exposed him after he tried to say he won the kisame vs pain pm despite me( and a pleothora of debaters) pointing numerous errors in his arguments and he just decieded to leave due to frustration and a lack of a comeback



Can only assume you're addressing Phantom. 

There were no errors, only valid points that you guys didn't like.

I've proved Kisame beats Pein on 2 or 3 seperate occasions.

Just when I updated my sig and stuff....such a hassle to screenshot, crop, save etc etc, don't make me do it again so soon

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

Valid points. lmao

Like comparing pain's summons to ponta 

Like saying BT wont work on Kisame in dome because the water will push him back. (If this logic is true, Kisame cant touch his opponent in dome)

Like saying pain wont be able to use a full charged ST when in matchups the opponents always start 100% unless op specifies.

Could go on and on.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 19, 2016)

@Turrin
@Icegaze 

Do yall believe my argument as well? if so that kicks up the amount of people that believe it to 10. 

Compared to Troyse's measly 0. 1 if you count Saph, but he's expressed doubt about Kisame'a ability to defend from C3.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 19, 2016)

> Because Samehada had absorbed his chakra, which he then absorbed back + B's + Aoba's


His chakra was not stored somewhere, it diminished over the time he was spying on them within the blade. Prior to absorbing Bee's chakra Samehada had no chakra within it, period.



> Kisame wouldn't have mentioned the topographic advantage if it didn't have an impact. And while Kisame can generate a large water source even when one doesn't exist, it's nowhere near the level of an entire Ocean.


He easily could've generated enough water to produce 1,000 sharks and Daikodan.

An ocean isn't needed for a mid kage level's Suitons, he's no god and wouldn't be capable of manipulating a percentage of a percentage of it.



> We don't know the full scope of Deidara's arsenal. The fact that he's above average in Genjutsu suggest that he likely can use Genjutsu


You can't grant shinobi powers they don't possess.

Most of the manga's characters do not possess Genjutsu techniques, you don't get to pick and choose who to attribute unknown illusion powers to.

He doesn't have Genjutsu, stop it, please.



> That Shinobi also had Sharingan to enhance his insight drastically. And i'm not going to argue against the author about his own manga. If he says these characters are more intelligent then they are, end of story.


Then you have no business debating.

I'll end it here, I have no interest debating against a databook.

You're a robot debater, cemented into citing databook scores and providing no rational argument to support it's assertions.

If i wanted to talk to Kishimoto's lawyer, I would've called him.

Please return when you've found the will to debate this manga.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Nov 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Do you agree with my argument tho?



With your rant no I don't

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> With your rant no I don't


Then counter my points.

Oh, also, if you are going to counter them, bring some valid ones to ths table, not shit like "Kisame tanked Hirudora".


----------



## Mariko (Nov 20, 2016)

Damn. There're still ppl giving a fuck about these third-rate chars

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Bonly (Nov 20, 2016)

Mariko said:


> Damn. There're still ppl giving a fuck about these third-rate chars



Hey these two are second rate characters  
Also who's that in your set?

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Mariko (Nov 20, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Hey these two are second rate characters
> Also who's that in your set?



A third-rate chick nobody cares about anymore


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 20, 2016)

Mariko said:


> A third-rate chick nobody cares about anymore


lol, well _someone_ cares

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Mariko (Nov 20, 2016)

@PhantomSage You disliked my post, it is your right, but I wait for your arguments proving that they're not third-rate chars nobody cares about anymore (and nobody really cared about even when they were topicals).

Reactions: Useful 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 20, 2016)

Mariko said:


> @PhantomSage You disliked my post, it is your right, but I wait for your arguments proving that they're not third-rate chars nobody cares about anymore (and nobody really cared about even when they were topicals).


Saying they're 3rd rate chars is an opinion, theres nothing I can do to prove an opinion to you.


----------



## Mariko (Nov 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Saying they're 3rd rate chars is an opinion, *theres nothing I can do to prove an opinion to you.*



So you're admitting this thread is all about your own contingent and subjective opinion? That's better.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 20, 2016)

Mariko said:


> @PhantomSage You disliked my post, it is your right, but I wait for your arguments proving that they're not third-rate chars nobody cares about anymore (and nobody really cared about even when they were topicals).


lol, just look at all the posts by Troyse. He definitely cares about Kisame... at an unhealthy level

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 20, 2016)

Mariko said:


> So you're admitting this thread is all about your own contingent and subjective opinion? That's better.


Well, this thread is about how deidara wod beat him, its 100% supported by the manga.

Go argue how good these characters are in the KL.


----------



## Mariko (Nov 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Well, this thread is about how deidara wod beat him, its 100% supported by the manga.
> 
> Go argue how good these characters are in the KL.



I've nothing to argue actually. 

I was just surprised there were still (serious) threads about these old second-rate chars. That's all.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 20, 2016)

Mariko said:


> I've nothing to argue actually.
> 
> I was just surprised there were still (serious) threads about these old second-rate chars. That's all.


Gotcha.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 20, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> k.
> 
> You're a robot debater, cemented into citing databook scores and providing no rational argument to support it's assertions.
> 
> ...


Concession accepted, Please return when your willing to debate based on actual manga facts instead of your own biased interpretation of feats.


----------



## Serene Grace (Nov 20, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Most of the manga's characters do not possess Genjutsu techniques, you don't get to pick and choose who to attribute unknown illusion powers to.
> 
> He doesn't have Genjutsu, stop it, please.


Actually there's a possible chance that Deidara does possess genjutsu ability, as he was able to train his eye to be unaffected by sharingan genjutsu, so he possibly could have used genjutsu himself to train his eye(This just a theory).


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> You said that you properly conceded to WS, when you just called his argument garbage and left, because he left one point out of many unaddressed.


Which point was that exactly?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Nov 20, 2016)

I disagree with this thread and the notion that Deidara is overall stronger than Kisame

Kisame got better portrayal and held more respect and esteem from his fellow peers

He got to defeat Killer Bee head to head now you can say he had circumstantial advantages but so did Deidara against Gaara and yet Kisame fought an enemy that was much stronger than Gaara at the time

He also had more responsibility within the organization he knew Obito as the real leader where as Deidara wasn't privy of this info this tells me that Kisame holds more clout which builds well for his portrayal.

Peopl cite a the fact that Itachi told Kisaame to be weary of Kakashi but would t Kakashi who even in pt 1 was a highly skilled Jounin be able to harm Deidara 2.5 yrs back to pt 1 considering we know h got stronger over time to defeat Itachi


----------



## Sapherosth (Nov 20, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Actually there's a possible chance that Deidara does possess genjutsu ability, as he was able to train his eye to be unaffected by sharingan genjutsu, so he possibly could have used genjutsu himself to train his eye(This just a theory).




Training his eye to defend against *one* genjutsu doesn't mean he's proficient with genjutsu in general..... I wouldn't be surprised if he had studied how to defend against visual genjutsu after that, but I can also argue that Kisame has seen Itachi use his genjutsu countless times to know more about it than Deidara does. After all, Deidara only saw it once whereas Kisame had many years working with Itachi.


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 20, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> I disagree with this thread and the notion that Deidara is overall stronger than Kisame
> 
> Kisame got better portrayal and held more respect and esteem from his fellow peers
> 
> ...


Oh  no man,the title was just bad wording.

My stanceis that Deidara can beat Kisame.

@WorldsStrongest 
The point was how nanobombs wouldn't be effective under water, conveniently ignoring C1 which damaged a bijuu, C2, and C3.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Nov 20, 2016)

I agree with that from a tactical perspective Deidara can defeat Kisame but if they were to face in the manga kishi would have Kisame come out on top


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 20, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Actually there's a possible chance that Deidara does possess genjutsu ability, as he was able to train his eye to be unaffected by sharingan genjutsu, so he possibly could have used genjutsu himself to train his eye(This just a theory).


I gotta disagree with you on that one. Having a resistance to genjutsu doesn't mean one can use it. Sukara also has resistance and was even said to be a genjutsu type, but she has no genjutsu in her arsenal (this part actually really bothered me about her character. She would have been so much better if they gave her genjutsu. Then she wouldn't be simply a Tsunade knockoff. For a main supporting character, she got ripped off honestly)


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Also, Kisame has 3x chakra of Kurama, because of a statement by Neji.
> Kisame tnaking Hirudora, an assumption, just because Gai punched Kisame again.
> 
> Fucking hilarious.



Yeah, he only has 3x the amount of chakra that P1 Naruto exhibited using a portion of 50% Kurama's chakra which is still pretty insane given that he summoned a boss sized summon * purely * using chakra and improper chakra control.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Nov 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Concession accepted, Please return when your willing to debate based on actual manga facts instead of your own biased interpretation of feats.


Don't quote me than edit the content.

It's unbecoming of you.

Deny contradictions in the databook then refusing to debate actual features is your flaw as a debater, it always has been.

Coming in here debating 2011 Nikushima style then questioning my approach.

-Outlined manga feats suggesting Kisame is superior in multiple categories

Turrin's Counter:
Databook stats from a fanservice book years ago that Kishimoto scored while shitting on his jet liner.

-Displayed multiple features indicating databook stats are inaccurate, including an intelligence stat which has Deidara an entire point above Hebi Sasuke, a shinobi who steamrolled him with a strategy based approach forcing him to suicide in the actual manga, written by the actual author, with detailed thought preceding publication.

Turrin's Counter:
Databook stats from a fanservice book years ago that Kishimoto scored while shitting on his jet liner.



How's your shoes? They cement dry yet?

Come on in with the response, we know you have to get that last word in


----------



## The All Unknowing (Nov 20, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Lol guys it was a theory, I even said it in my post. @Sapherosth @The All Unknowing


well sure. As is pretty much every post in this thread since they've never fought. I was only explaining why I believe that theory doesn't work in this scenario


----------



## Turrin (Nov 21, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Don't quote me than edit the content.


It's more like Turrin quotes actual facts from the author, and Daz is like nah nah nah not listening because my subjective interpretation of feats > the author's opinion in on his own manga. 

PS: I never said the DB is flawless, but nether is the manga. Kishi makes mistakes in both. The question is do we have a reason to believe he made a mistake in Deidara's Genjutsu stat. And no the fact that Deidara didn't show a Genjutsu on panel doesn't mean Kishimoto made a mistake giving him a above average Genjutsu score, anymore then saying Kakashi's 1K Jutsu was a mistake in the manga because we didn't see them all. It just means we haven't seen his entire arsenal, which is the case for most characters.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi's 1K Jutsu was a mistake in the manga because we didn't see them all. It just means we haven't seen his entire arsenal, which is the case for most characters.


I dont think there are even 1000 different techniques in the manga fam, even if you included the same jutsu multiple times due to its different variants, like summoning: snakes or summoning: toads or summoning: ET for example, i still dont thing we scratch 1K.

So im 99% sure that kakashis 1000 jutsu hype is bullshit, just meaningless hyperbole, not at all meant to be taken at face value.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont think there are even 1000 different techniques in the manga fam, even if you included the same jutsu multiple times due to its different variants, like summoning: snakes or summoning: toads or summoning: ET for example, i still dont thing we scratch 1K.
> 
> So im 99% sure that kakashis 1000 jutsu hype is bullshit, just meaningless hyperbole, not at all meant to be taken at face value.


Or we just didn't see anywhere near the total amount of techniques in the verse.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Or we just didn't see anywhere near the total amount of techniques in the verse.


This explanation makes more sense to you than simple hyperbole does? 

Ohhhkay then...if thats what you wanna run with.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This explanation makes more sense to you than simple hyperbole does?
> 
> Ohhhkay then...if thats what you wanna run with.


Yes it does. Considering that in a single generation in just the 5 villages alone there were 90,000 Shinobi, meaning even if only 1 out of ever 100 of them possessed a unique technique from one another, that would already be 900 different techniques in a single generation.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yes it does. Considering that in a single generation in just the 5 villages alone there were 90,000 Shinobi, meaning even if only 1 out of ever 100 of them possessed a unique technique from one another, that would already be 900 different techniques in a single generation.


Having a unique jutsu is rare, really rare, look at the chidori, one of the earliest original and unique techniques in the verse, if not the oldest, 2 people can use it.

Yet you are assuming that literally thousands of fodder have the skill necessary to have a unique jutsu?

Sure man, you run with that if that works for you.

I just think its far more logical and far more likely that hyperbole is used, that nmakes more sense to me than making up population concentration equations to account for numbers of jutsu that are blatantly not in the verse, even counting kekkei genkai or even taijutsu techniques added in, we dont come close to 1000.

Soooo, i run with hyperbole.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 21, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Having a unique jutsu is rare, really rare, look at the chidori, one of the earliest original and unique techniques in the verse, if not the oldest, 2 people can use it.
> 
> Yet you are assuming that literally thousands of fodder have the skill necessary to have a unique jutsu?
> 
> ...


No I'm saying roughly 900 individuals out of 90,000 could probably create their own unique technique. And is it really that rare to have your own unique Jutsu. Kakashi invented Rarikiri back right when he just became a Jonin, so it's not like he was crazy ridiculously skilled at that point. If Fresh Jonin Kakashi could invent a technique I would imagine that 900 of the best Shinobi from a sampling of 90,000 could do the same. Also look at Boruto whose defiantly not Jonin-level yet, but still managed to invent a new Rasengan.

Then you have Sasuke, who over the time-skip invented at least 3 new Chidori Variants and Kirin. And it's not like SPII-Sasuke was some god tier character ether.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Nov 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> No I'm saying roughly 900 individuals out of 90,000 could probably create their own unique technique.


Meaning 900 unique techniques, which is more than the total number of confirmed techniques that exist in the entire verse by a mile, are attributed to effectively fodder nin? Yeah that just doesnt sound right to me for some reason.



Turrin said:


> And is it really that rare to have your own unique Jutsu.


Yes, clearly, thats why there are so few jutsu total in the verse, and only shinobi who were acknowledged as abnormally skilled or prodigious have invented their own jutsu.


Turrin said:


> Kakashi invented Rarikiri back right when he just became a Jonin, so it's not like he was crazy ridiculously skilled at that point.


He was a 13 yr old jonin, thats unheard of in the series, pretty safe to say he was ridiculously skilled at that point, kakashi was kinda always ridiculously skilled. kakashi was also stated multiple times to be a genius and a prodigy, by the likes of even minato, something 1000 randoms dont have.


Turrin said:


> Also look at Boruto whose defiantly not Jonin-level yet, but still managed to invent a new Rasengan.


He was stated to have prodigious talent as well, he has the blood of not one, but two prodigous clans, hes also the son of basically the verses version of jesus, and was being trained by the only guy in the verse who can go toe to toe with jesus, not really a fair example.


Turrin said:


> Then you have Sasuke,


Already off to a great start...


Turrin said:


> who over the time-skip invented at least 3 new Chidori Variants and Kirin. And it's not like SPII-Sasuke was some god tier character ether.


God tier? No. Genius and a prodigy? Yes. To top it off he was being trained one on one by the genius of the freaking sannin for 3 years.

Creating jutsu is something that requires great levels of intelligence and intuition, which is very uncommon in the verse, clearly. Thats why techniques like rasengan and chidori are seen as a big deal, if just anyone could create their own jutsu, everyone with a headband would be running around with some A ranked nonsense, as thats not the case, its safe to assume not just anyone can make a jutsu.

At this point id have to simply say agree to disagree, if you wanna believe that kakashi has literally over 1000 jutsu under his belt and just never had occasion to demonstrate even a tenth of that for some reason, rather than believe in simple hyperbole, then be my guest. Same goes for your jutsu creating fodder nin, im just gonna stick with hyperbole, as that requires far less assumptions.


----------



## Icegaze (Nov 21, 2016)

kakuzu> deidara


and kisame as well


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> kakuzu> deidara
> 
> 
> and kisame as well


  Unsubstantiated horseshit, not gonna bother.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Nov 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> kakuzu> deidara



No such thing was implied by me.


----------

