# Luka enters Fate/Stay verse



## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

About time I got to this, probably going to get no replies

Luka from MGQ enters the 4th and 5th holy grail war as the 8th holy spirit, how far does he make it in each respective verse?



Second Scenario : Luka starts off each battle asleep


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

Biggest problems I see for him are Fate Berserker (Zero berserker might be an issue depending on equipment given to him), either Gilgamesh, Saber if she gets excalblast off, fake Assassin if he goes straight for Tsubame Gaeshi, Archer, Fate Lancer, True Assasin's NP, Rider can actually capitalize on his weakness...


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 11, 2012)

He can't do squat to Hercules either, iirc.


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## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

how well does Hercules like attacks that cut through time and space?


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## Voyeur (Aug 11, 2012)

Didn't expect to see an MGQ thread here.  Been playing more eroges ?


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## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

Voyeur said:


> Well, I can't blame ya, there really isn't' that many games to look forward to now a days, been doing the exact same thing really.
> 
> Also I really need to replay MGQ again, I guess I missed out on it feats wise, didn't expect Luka to be that powerful.



Well the only games I have been excited about are HD collections, currently have Rachet and Clank preordered.

I didn't expect Luka to get that powerful either, but he became a monster towards the end of the series. Erubtia was going to blow up the entire continent of Hellgondo to make sure Luka wouldn't survive. Part 3 looks to make him even more powerful, possible planetary threats since he his now facing Ilias holy army.


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> how well does Hercules like attacks that cut through time and space?



Tsubame Gaeshi is an attack that ignores time and space and produces three simultaneous slashes, and it wouldn't do any damage to Hercules.

Mind you, as a servant, do we consider Luka as a genuine legend? 

If you insert him as it is, he'll basically have no fame, myth, and age. That means he will be considerably weakened.

If you do, then he'll have a small-medium fame and myth, with a small amount age. He still won't be summoned at full power.

You can actually note that some servants, like Hercules, will be forever held back by the servant container, while others can be as strong as they were in their lives, like Arthur.

Depending on class.... Ahh, dammit.

The moment you put him in as a servant is the moment you basically made the debate vague, there are too many things to consider under the summoning of servants and the rules of the Holy Grail.


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## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

> Tsubame Gaeshi is an attack that ignores time and space and produces three simultaneous slashes, and it wouldn't do any damage to Hercules.



I don't remember Assassin ever fighting Hercules, let alone using the attack on Hercules.



> The moment you put him in as a servant is the moment you basically made the debate vague, there are too many things to consider under the summoning of servants and the rules of the Holy Grail.



I only used it as a way to insert Luka, I rather not put gauntlet since thats not the results I am after. Lets just assume he is at full power.


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> I don't remember Assassin ever fighting Hercules, let alone using the attack on Hercules.





			
				food's Complete Material III translation said:
			
		

> God Hand
> A blessing of Gods, as well as a curse. It is a Noble Phantasm given to Heracles, representing immortality. This Noble Phantasm does not have an overt external manifestation such as a weapon or armour, but if you hazard to put a shape to it, the body itself can be called the Noble Phantasm. God Hand turns one?s body into a tough suit of armour and nullifies all attacks *Rank B or lower, regardless the attack being physical or magical. *It also has the effect of automatic resurrection after death. Because the resurrection effect has 11 uses, Heracles cannot perish unless killed 12 times. In addition, due to Ilya?s immense magical energy, given enough time, the lives lost can also be regenerated.
> Resurrection as well as attack-nullification. Besides these two effects, God Hand also possesses a third effect: rendering an attack that it has experienced before useless. Regardless how powerful is the Noble Phantasm that defeated Heracles, it would be completely nullified after he resurrects.



Tsubame Gaeshi isn't even ranked and is .

Going into the relevant stat Tsubame Gaeshi uses, Assassin strength's rated at C, again, it fails at the rank check and will therefore have no damage.



> I only used it as a way to insert Luka, I rather not put gauntlet since thats not the results I am after.



So you'll disregard all the rules in the universe you pit him into?


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## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

> Going into the relevant stat Tsubame Gaeshi uses, Assassin strength's rated at C, again, it fails at the rank check and will therefore have no damage.



You can't give someone resistances if they haven't shown it, ingame/series stats don't mean shit here unless they can be properly quantified. You are also equating strength with a attack that bypasses conventional durability.



> So you'll disregard all the rules in the universe you pit him into?



Of course, this is the OBD, if you really want it to be, just assume its a round robin gauntlet where he fights everyone in a neutral universe.


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## Rene (Aug 11, 2012)

TetsuoS2 said:


> You can actually note that some servants, like Hercules, will be forever held back by the servant container, while others can be as strong as they were in their lives, like Arthur.


Arthur actually can't be as strong as she was in her old form.

I don't think any of them really could be.



Xiammes said:


> I don't remember Assassin ever fighting Hercules, let alone using the attack on Hercules.


They did, Caster and Assassin had to fend off Berserker and Ilya's attack on the temple. (which they succesfully did)

It's in one of the completed materials.



Xiammes said:


> You can't give someone resistances if they haven't shown it,


At best the attack would take one life from him (due to the hypothesized concept of it), but after that he'd just grow resistance to any further attacks.

He can already no sell causality reversing attacks, attacks that deal in time reversal and he wouldn't be affected by Caster space freezing magic.

He also broke out of Gilgamesh's Enkidu with pure strength and determination even though it bound the time and space around him.



> ingame/series stats don't mean shit here unless they can be properly quantified.


Fate stats are actually pretty accurate most of the time, though they still take a backseat to feats. 

All characters with a high luck stat for example have some degree of small passive probabilty manipulation.



> You are also equating strength with a attack that bypasses conventional durability.


God hand is far from any kind of conventional durability though.


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## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

> He also broke out of Gilgamesh's Enkidu with pure strength and determination even though it bound the time and space around him.



It relies on divinity, its a really strong chain otherwise, that was also a powered up Hercules anyways.

I am still not well versed enough in fate/stay verse to comment on anything else.


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## Rene (Aug 11, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> It relies on divinity, its a really strong chain otherwise, that was also a powered up Hercules anyways.


The literal quote from the VN is: "The giant tries to break the chain that binds space itself"

Yeah the divinity affects how strong the chain is, but this is about the way that the chain binds people.

Also he wasn't really powered up, the command spell tried to teleport Berserker out of the chains, but it was blocked. Also afterwards Gilgamesh destroyed all of berserkers remaining lives before he broke out of the chains.


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 11, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> You can't give someone resistances if they haven't shown it, ingame/series stats don't mean shit here unless they can be properly quantified. _You are also equating strength with a attack that bypasses conventional durability._



[Citation needed]

As far as I know, Tsubame Gaeshi are normal sword slashes that ignore the concept of time and space by the virtue of being a simultaneous triple slash using the multidimensional refraction phenomena.

If you want an actual attack that actually bypasses defense, try the melee version of Gae Bolg. But it still won't help,



			
				Dengeki Q&A said:
			
		

> Q. Lancer, Caster, Assassin, and True Assassins; all with normal attack and Noble Phantasms of B or lower. If they fought against Berserker, wouldn't it be a one-sided fight? Or are there any of them that can match up against him?
> A: *Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily raise the rank to A,* but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but "one with some chances".



You're equating God Hand to conventional defense.



Rene said:


> Arthur actually can't be as strong as she was in her old form.
> 
> I don't think any of them really could be.





			
				food's Complete Material III Translation said:
			
		

> Altria’s abilities rose when having Kiritsugu as Master. Her LCK status decreased since even Kiritsugu still could not provide sufficient magical energy, as a result the status was affected by the Master's way of life. *When having Rin as a Master, Altria was able to unleash her original abilities without being affected by the Master. *



And .

Edit:
There, finally remembered an attack that rends space and time, .

He blocked a little too late, but this is .


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## AliceKumo (Aug 11, 2012)

TetsuoS2 said:


> [Citation needed]
> 
> As far as I know, Tsubame Gaeshi are normal sword slashes that ignore the concept of time and space by the virtue of being a simultaneous triple slash using the multidimensional refraction phenomena.
> 
> ...



I think it came to a conclusion that Rin Saber is very close to full power but not quiet there yet. Saber Alter relies more on raw power and unlimited mana, while Arturia is more versatile.


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 11, 2012)

*Altria was able to unleash her original abilities.*

I don't see any word that says very close.


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## AliceKumo (Aug 11, 2012)

TetsuoS2 said:


> *Altria was able to unleash her original abilities.*
> 
> I don't see any word that says very close.



Feats say otherwise...


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

Angel Halo is quite strong in verse (can seal the monster Lords), but Luka with it has an issue sealing beings that accumulated a lot of power over time. He should be capable of harming their goddess Illias with it (although I don't believe he could seal her at end of Part 2).

There is also the Giganto weapon he managed to seal even through its regeneration, but it was noted in game it was weaker than its normal strength.


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 11, 2012)

AliceKumo said:


> Feats say otherwise...



What? You have feats from the real Arturia?

What makes it so that she doesn't?

Not trying to be an ass or anything, but she isn't the only one who could be at full power.

I'd go as far as to say FSN!Archer is already at max, since he's not really that strong and power given by the Counter Force isn't really his either.

False Assassin is already as strong as he can be, he shouldn't be even able to have stats that high.


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## AliceKumo (Aug 11, 2012)

TetsuoS2 said:


> What? You have feats from the real Arturia?
> 
> What makes it so that she doesn't?
> 
> ...



I never went against "a Servant can't be as powerful as he was while alive" i just was against the Saber thing. In F/HA Shirou use a command spells to get her back to former-glory and she has a mach 13 feat... something i don't recall Rin Saber having.


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

FSN Archer's summoning was imperfect, I believe his stats were actually lowered becoming a servant (he's not a proper Heroic Spirit to begin with).


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 11, 2012)

^No, he wasn't, he was just using excuses for to be able to escape Tohsaka's questions of who he was. You can see that he never actually complains for the "botched summoning" during battles.

The only actual mistake that Tohsaka did was summoning at the time when her power wasn't at her peak.



			
				arai's Complete Material III Translation said:
			
		

> Birth of Heroic Spirits
> It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are ones of legends. *Also, Emiya and Altria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world.　*Those who have become Heroic Sｐirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.


------
Anyway, on forming Saber's contract with Rin.


Anyway, for the bridge to skyscraper leap:


			
				Fate/Zero Vol.4 said:
			
		

> Such is a Command Seal. If the Command Seals were used with the consent of both Master and Servant, *then no matter how impossible the task*, it could be completed.



So yeah, Command spells allow for miracles, or would you put teleporting under Saber's feats too?



Why am I even doing this? I need some sleep, dammit.


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## AliceKumo (Aug 11, 2012)

TetsuoS2 said:


> ^No, he wasn't, he was just using excuses for to be able to escape Tohsaka's questions of who he was. You can see that he never actually complains for the "botched summoning" during battles.
> 
> The only actual mistake that Tohsaka did was summoning at the time when her power wasn't at her peak.
> 
> ...



Pretty sure theres a part in F/HA that stats the because of a command spell she returned to her former power...

And having her "full power" in that context could just as well mean full power as a Servant now that she got a Master that doesn't suck.

And oh, good night.


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

Zero Caster was also screwed up by an imperfect summoning, was Emiya's class even supposed to be Archer when he's a CG from the future and not a HS?


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## Rene (Aug 11, 2012)

TetsuoS2 said:


> *Altria was able to unleash her original abilities.*
> 
> I don't see any word that says very close.


This is mentioning that she can now use Excalibur at full power.

When under Shirou her Noble Phantasm rank was only C because she couldn't use a true excalibur.



TetsuoS2 said:


> I'd go as far as to say FSN!Archer is already at max, since he's not really that strong and power given by the Counter Force isn't really his either.


This is pretty probable.



> False Assassin is already as strong as he can be, he shouldn't be even able to have stats that high.


Well Fake Assassin was made up, so obviously he'd be as strong as ever, since he never existed before.

In the F/HA bridge scene they refer to the fact that with the mana of the command seal she could return to being as powerful as she was during the time she still fought on the battlefields of old.

So yeah it's feat with the command seal, but we also know that it's a feat she could pull off in her original form.



Qinglong said:


> Zero Caster was also screwed up by an imperfect summoning, was Emiya's class even supposed to be Archer when he's a CG from the future and not a HS?


Zero Caster was screwed up because they summoned someone who wasn't a true Caster into the role.


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

EDIT: After looking over it again I agree that actually might have been his full power.

I would say he can take out weaker servants but he can't really deal with hax very well and wouldn't get past high tier servants.


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## Zombehs (Aug 11, 2012)

Everyone I'd just like to mention that Luka managed to beat Alice.

Someone who tanked getting thrown all the way from the Dark Continent (whatever it's called) to Luka's village by Illias.....


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

His DC and durability aren't the problem, it's abilities that circumvent that that are the problem for him.


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## Zombehs (Aug 11, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> His DC and durability aren't the problem, it's abilities that circumvent that that are the problem for him.



If Mountain Busting is to be believed from the link posted by OP, I'm really not seeing the problem he is supposed to have here...

Unless what I've heard about giga/teraton Excalibur calcs being redone or something is true. In which case, meh.

Though Enkindu would be highly interesting here.... Luka is implied to be descended from a high ranking angel, so would his divinity be quite high?


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

Godhand's NLF (unless someone can explain to me how or why caliburn took multiple lives when he tanks excaliblast in one bad ending), Whether Angel Halo would be a NP and what rank, what should his Magic Resistance be at, lolGaebulg, Zero Gilgamesh if he's serious could most likely do him in, Saber depends on excalblast's power and if she has Avalon.

Thankfully he most likely won't have his lamesauce weakness capitalized on.


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## Rene (Aug 11, 2012)

Zombehs said:


> If Mountain Busting is to be believed from the link posted by OP, I'm really not seeing the problem he is supposed to have here...


From what I gather it's similar to the claims of mountain busting that FSN has. (Such as Gil's GoB fire being able to split a mountain or Berserker's strongest swing able to level a mountain)



> Unless what I've heard about giga/teraton Excalibur calcs being redone or something is true. In which case, meh.


I believe it was redone into a couple of megatons/possible city level by what CGs of F/HA show.

Since the alternative was something of the single digit petatons, but that would stretch the suspension of disbelief a bit too much. 



> Though Enkindu would be highly interesting here.... Luka is implied to be descended from a high ranking angel, so would his divinity be quite high?


Since Zero Rider's divinity was already high enough by simply the rumor of him being the son of a god, he would definitely rank as high divinity since he seems to be a form of fallen angel.



Qinglong said:


> Godhand's NLF (unless someone can explain to me how or why caliburn took multiple lives when he tanks excaliblast in one bad ending)


Caliburn scene is probably the epitome of lolnasu.



> Thankfully he most likely won't have his lamesauce weakness capitalized on.


Dark Sakura and Rider.


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

Don't remind me of the vore scenes ><

Rider gets a new prana battery for life.


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## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

> Angel Halo is quite strong in verse (can seal the monster Lords), but Luka with it has an issue sealing beings that accumulated a lot of power over time. He should be capable of harming their goddess Illias with it (although I don't believe he could seal her at end of Part 2).



Luka didn't directly fight Illias at the end of part 2, she simply came down and he rebelled against her and he dodged some lighting attack from her, she then says that she can't correct the corrupt blood in him then she unleashes her Angels on the castle.

Angel Halo works by sealing off the magic, it should theoretically work on Illias since it worked Erubtia who has enough magically energy to blow up the continent if she blows her self up. So I don't see why it shouldn't work on servants.



> If Mountain Busting is to be believed from the link posted by OP, I'm really not seeing the problem he is supposed to have here...



As for now take it with a pinch of salt tbh, we don't get any physical evidence, I don't have a problem saying Luka's Quadruple Giga is Mountain level since he split apart a large chunk of the earth. The claims are about even causal sword swings able to harm beings with mountain level durability. 

They were adamant with Mountain level.

1) Luka claims it feels as if a Mountain is standing before him
2) Taomao said when she is infused with the earth, her body is the same as the mountains
3) Granberia said that she trained herself so that she could slice down mountains so she would never be left vulnerable to earth magic.



> Though Enkindu would be highly interesting here.... Luka is implied to be descended from a high ranking angel, so would his divinity be quite high?



Probably none, at least while awake. If he was asleep, then his body becomes that of an angels where he gains his extra sealing abilities and intangibility, then I would Enkindu has a chance to become highly effective.



> Don't remind me of the vore scenes ><



You didn't turn them off? As soon as I saw the option I turned them off, I find nothing appealing about getting eaten.


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Aug 11, 2012)

I love eating people.


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## AliceKumo (Aug 11, 2012)

Some sort of zombie said:


> I love eating people.



Well you *are* Some sort of zombie.  (yes a very lame pun)


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## Qinglong (Aug 11, 2012)

I censor nothing and take all my deaths

Only other VN I've played recently that interested me was Dengeki Stryker (might get a supersonic+ large hill+ spammable mountain buster from final villain if I can peg speed... too many uses of faster than eye when BoS main has supersonic flight)


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## Orochibuto (Aug 11, 2012)

I have just finished MGQ and sorry, but Luka aint at this level yet, to be honest I dont see him even beating Narutoverse, the biggest durability feat we have going by hype him is taking a "tap" bolt from Ilias with dealt 26 damage.

Not to mention that one of my biggest complaints so far has been that Luka hasnt won a lot battles clean. He defeated the 4 Heavenly Knights just because each of them wanted to eat his dick instead of killing him.

Now dont get me wrong, I think when MGQ is over he will be able to shit on HST but only when he gets Ilias level.

The main problem with Monster Girls is that it doesnt matter who is it, we never get to see the full extent of their abilities because when MGs fight 90% of their efforts is to rape you, only when they see its useless they resort to kill.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 11, 2012)

Zombehs said:


> Everyone I'd just like to mention that Luka managed to beat Alice.
> 
> Someone who tanked getting thrown all the way from the Dark Continent (whatever it's called) to Luka's village by Illias.....



Read my post, Luka's victories against a lot of MGs are at a lot of times as legit as Naruto defeating Pain. BTW we dont know where Alice was when she was battling Ilias, so no there is no known feat of tanking being thrown from Hellgondo to Ilias's Village.

The only 2 really important high level clean victories I recall from Luka are when she beats Alma and Tamamo.


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## Sieghart92 (Aug 11, 2012)

AliceKumo said:


> I never went against "a Servant can't be as powerful as he was while alive" i just was against the Saber thing. In F/HA Shirou use a command spells to get her back to former-glory and she has a mach 13 feat... something i don't recall Rin Saber having.



She didn't really come into a situation where she would have to. So we can just assume Rin Saber is mach 13.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 11, 2012)

I see that it has already being turned into an internal FSN debate. So current Luka cant beat anyone right?

I mean yeah, he "beat" a lot of strong girls, just as how Naruto defeated Pain and there is no known scale on his angel powers, my guess is that it would allow Luka to actually fight high end MGs that are bloodlusted rather than lusted.

MGs fans if you want to use debates use the Monster Girl Encyclopedia verse which is way way stronger than MGQ.


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## Xiammes (Aug 11, 2012)

> Not to mention that one of my biggest complaints so far has been that Luka hasnt won a lot battles clean. He defeated the 4 Heavenly Knights just because each of them wanted to eat his dick instead of killing him.



Erubetia actually fought Luka with the intention of killing him. After Luka mastered Gnome, none of the Heavenly Knights besides Granberia could physically hurt him. Besides the training, only Granberia actually let Luka hit her with his final attack. He also beat Alice in 1 on 1 combat who defeated the 4 heavenly knights in a battle royal.



> The only 2 really important high level clean victories I recall from Luka are when she beats Alma and Tamamo.




He bested all the Heavenly knights fairly, he defeated Alma, Taomao and Erubtia fairly, and Granberia was able to fight him as a swordsman, but she allowed Luka to hit her with Quadruple Giga to see how powerful it was. He also defeated Alice who wasn't holding back.


Luka in angel form should allow him to beat anyone in the HST, his intangibility and the ability to slice through time and space and sealing powers, there is no reason why he can't.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 12, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Erubetia actually fought Luka with the intention of killing him. After Luka mastered Gnome, none of the Heavenly Knights besides Granberia could physically hurt him. Besides the training, only Granberia actually let Luka hit her with his final attack. He also beat Alice in 1 on 1 combat who defeated the 4 heavenly knights in a battle royal.



Wrong, well not wrong but you missed some parts.

Tamamo and Alma Elma (*yes, supposedly)*- Supposedly here Luka won clean, however Erubieta claimed the fights were training attempts at least at first but granted I can say he did beaten them because we could take it as he was weaker before the training but after that became stronger than them.

Erubieta (*Fuck no)*- She indeed claimed she unlike Tamamo and Alma wouldnt coach him during the fight and instead fight him, but didnt said she would kill him. Her quote is "There will be no foolish attempt at training you. Nor will I be a fool and try to do anything less than crush you." Okay she fought indeed all out but it was all out to rape (until the end of the fight). The difference is that unlike Alma and Tamamo she didnt went easy at TEH RAPEZ attempt and tried to coach him.

And during ALL THE DAMN FIGHT her entire purpose was to rape you and you can corroborate you by losing. However you are right, she fought to kill and you remember what happened then? Luka was completely and utterly owned. When she actually binded him with the intent to kill Luka couldnt break free even with Gnome coupled with the fact that Luka would had been destroyed for sure with the continent busting ability.

The bind that cant be released even with Gnome was never used in the rape fight, so no when she actually went from "I will turn you into my sex slave" to batshit psycho Luka got owned and he had to use talk no jutsu to "win" that fight.



Xiammes said:


> He bested all the Heavenly knights fairly, he defeated Alma, Taomao and Erubtia fairly, and Granberia was able to fight him as a swordsman, but she allowed Luka to hit her with Quadruple Giga to see how powerful it was. He also defeated Alice who wasn't holding back.



I covered the others, Granberia....... that one is another issue.

Granberia - (*Fuck no*) With Granberia it was outright stated by Luka that if she actually had attacked him while prepping the Giga it would had been "an easy win." Also it doesnt help the fact that Granberia was saying "Okay time to end the bout" to which Luka responded "WTF bout? Im going all out" also the fact that when she attacks you simply say "Just a tap."

Without Quadruple Giga there is simply no way to beat her, she has an attack that takes away 70% of your HP and she simply doesnt use it often and prefer to give what is dubbed by her "taps." Not to mention that her Rebellion Sword is an unblockable oneshot. So no, with Granberia more than anyone else had she fought all out she would had wiped the floor with Luka and raped him both figuratively and literally.

Alice wasnt holding back? When you are about to beat her she says "Okay do it" and drops the fighting. Also the fact that Alice herself asked Luka to kill her and she only says "If I sense hesitation in your sword." Not that he must actually be stronger than she going all out and the fact that when she actually beats you she says like "Huh, you were fighting seriously?" There is no real indication she went all out, considering she outright dropped the end of the fight and she has a oneshot technique.

Not to mention it wouldnt make sense, its a given Luka couldnt defeat a bloodlusted Erubiete when she went from rape mode to kill mode, he had to outright use talk no jutsu to get out of the fight, is an outright given said by Luka himself that he couldnt beat Granberia if it wasnt for her wanting to see the most powerful attack, if Luka really beat a bloodlusted for the kill Alice it would mean that at least Granberia > Alice.

Not to mention that Alice outright said in the arena that monsters go easy on humans they almost never fight all out because they are only interested in rape.

In fact the author of the Monster Girl Encyclopedia, the work on which MGQ is based on said that MGs only go to the army to find husbands and they fight going easy to avoid kill men since for them the only purpose of joining the monster army is to be able to easily get husbands by capturing them in battles. For them the war is the equivalent of you going to a "Hot girl get all you can" party.

Dont get me wrong, Luka is strong yes, but so far he hasnt shown without angelic power to be able to fight MGs that arent trying to go for his cock and are actually fighting all out, since he had to use talk no jutsu to beat a Heavenly Knight, another one outright gave the fight by receiving Quadruple Giga and likely Alice wasnt going for the kill all out either.



Xiammes said:


> Luka in angel form should allow him to beat anyone in the HST, his intangibility and the ability to slice through time and space and sealing powers, there is no reason why he can't.



It hasnt been hinted or shown that Luka has angel intangibility, the fact that he actually has to dodge the attacks with fallen angel dance seems to indicate otherwise. I dont see anyone bar Juubi being able to tank the hit of something that can cut space-time based attacks, but he hasnt shown the feats of speed and durability to be able to do it.


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## Xiammes (Aug 12, 2012)

> Erubieta (Fuck no)- She indeed claimed she unlike Tamamo and Alma wouldnt coach him during the fight and instead fight him, but didnt said she would kill him. Her quote is "There will be no foolish attempt at training you. Nor will I be a fool and try to do anything less than crush you." Okay she fought indeed all out but it was all out to rape (until the end of the fight). The difference is that unlike Alma and Tamamo she didnt went easy at TEH RAPEZ attempt and tried to coach him.



She did try to kill him, or did you miss her attempting to blow her self up when she killed him.



> Okay she fought indeed all out but it was all out to rape



Raping is the easiest way to kill someone in MGQ, if she tried physical moves like Taomao or Granberia she wouldn't damage Luka.



> And during ALL THE DAMN FIGHT her entire purpose was to rape you and you can corroborate you by losing. However you are right, she fought to kill and you remember what happened then? Luka was completely and utterly owned. When she actually binded him with the intent to kill Luka couldnt break free even with Gnome coupled with the fact that Luka would had been destroyed for sure with the continent busting ability.



Luka could have defeated before that happened, he refused to seal her since he thought the fight was over.



> The bind that cant be released even with Gnome was never used in the rape fight, so no when she actually went from "I will turn you into my sex slave" to batshit psycho Luka got owned and he had to use talk no jutsu to "win" that fight.



It says many times that Luka couldn't release his binding before, but even after a few tries he was able escape, the difference here being she would have detonated before he escaped. It was still a fair fight in which he bested her in combat.



> Granberia - (Fuck no) With Granberia it was outright stated by Luka that if she actually had attacked him while prepping the Giga it would had been "an easy win." Also it doesnt help the fact that Granberia was saying "Okay time to end the bout" to which Luka responded "WTF bout? Im going all out" also the fact that when she attacks you simply say "Just a tap."



Of course if she attacked him he would have lost, but he also didn't need the Quadruple giga to beat her.



> Without Quadruple Giga there is simply no way to beat her, she has an attack that takes away 70% of your HP and she simply doesnt use it often and prefer to give what is dubbed by her "taps." Not to mention that her Rebellion Sword is an unblockable oneshot. So no, with Granberia more than anyone else had she fought all out she would had wiped the floor with Luka and raped him both figuratively and literally.



She was not just attacking with "taps", considering she couldn't hurt Taomao before, and she was causing damage to Luka who has equal durability.

It takes her a turn to start with vaporizing rebellion blade, in the mean time you can counter with your own Rebellion blade. It is completely possible to beat her without quadruple Giga in battle. I hate to bring up non canon shit, but in the NG+ mod, there is a rematch with Granberia where she is buffed up and you are the exact same and you can win normally, there is even a point where she starts spamming her strongest attacks.



> Alice wasnt holding back? When you are about to beat her she says "Okay do it" and drops the fighting. Also the fact that Alice herself asked Luka to kill her and she only says "If I sense hesitation in your sword." Not that he must actually be stronger than she going all out and the fact that when she actually beats you she says like "Huh, you were fighting seriously?" There is no real indication she went all out, considering she outright dropped the end of the fight and she has a oneshot technique.



There is no reason to assume she wasn't going all out, she dropped at the end so Luka would to kill her  with the iron sword instead of sealing her with Angels Halo.



> Not to mention it wouldnt make sense, its a given Luka couldnt defeat a bloodlusted Erubiete when she went from rape mode to kill mode, he had to outright use talk no jutsu to get out of the fight, is an outright given said by Luka himself that he couldnt beat Granberia if it wasnt for her wanting to see the most powerful attack, if Luka really beat a bloodlusted for the kill Alice it would mean that at least Granberia > Alice.



Already covered it, Erubtia was revered for her fighting skill, not because of her ability to blow herself up. 



> It hasnt been hinted or shown that Luka has angel intangibility, the fact that he actually has to dodge the attacks with fallen angel dance seems to indicate otherwise.



You have a point here, but he has displayed sealing powers, no reason to assume he wouldn't have the intangibility to go along with it.



> I dont see anyone bar Juubi being able to tank the hit of something that can cut space-time based attacks, but he hasnt shown the feats of speed and durability to be able to do it.



What has Juubi shown that allows him to resist an attack the bypasses durability.


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## Lucifeller (Aug 12, 2012)

Sigh.

Luka can and should beat any Servant in a straight fight because his own weapon could be easily put in the same category as a Noble Phantasm. It's a cursed sword made of 666 melted angels that inflicts no wound on the body and instead drains magic power, and it doesn't seem to make a distinction between what kind of magic power. On top of that it doesn't kill, so Berserker won't have the chance to grow immune to it. Only stuff that KILLS him won't work on him again. Which is a pretty fuckhuge handicap when being attacked by a sword that, instead of killing you, simply eats the force that's keeping you anchored to the world.

Servants don't have a regular body, and need magic to even keep going (as mentioned when Rin chastised Shirou because Saber was barely standing and unable to fight properly because she lacked prana), and if all magic were drained, they'd just plain cease to exist.

What Angel Halo would do, in essence, is drain the very energy that lets Servants remain anchored to the world with each strike. Not only will that cause them to dissipate, but it will also make them weaker and less able to use their own abilities with every hit.

Even worse, a case can be made for Angel Halo causing THEIR WEAPONS to dissipate, since they too are conceptual weaponry materialized through magic. So they can't even use their swords, etc. to clash with Luka's, as there's a good case for Angel Halo more or less eating them.

Asleep Luka is even worse because unlike normal Luka he doesn't have a SP limit and has an on-crack version of Undine's Serene Mind always active which autododges everything thrown at him, no matter how improbably difficult to dodge it should be. He can use all his moves with no SP expenditure at all, and repeated spammings of Ninefold Rakshasa will very quickly chop down to size the magic power of any and all Servants, no matter how quickly their Master can provide more to them. Hell, a case could be made for the Master getting killed trying to keep up with the constant drain...



> Not to mention it wouldnt make sense, its a given Luka couldnt defeat a bloodlusted Erubiete when she went from rape mode to kill mode, he had to outright use talk no jutsu to get out of the fight, is an outright given said by Luka himself that he couldnt beat Granberia if it wasnt for her wanting to see the most powerful attack, if Luka really beat a bloodlusted for the kill Alice it would mean that at least Granberia > Alice.



Actually, that may well be the case. Do remember Alice had to struggle to defeat Granberia, and following her victory, she's spent her time more or less wallowing in self pity over ruining her mother's plans. Granberia, on the other hand, explicitly tells you that she's been training very hard since the Monster Lord's melee, as shown when she manages to injure Luka through Gnome (she was previously unable to even scratch Tamamo), and as shown by how her damage output is actually higher than Alice's (she has to multicast Omega Fire, Frost Ozma and Monster Lord's Cruelty to exceed Granberia's damage). All that, when she's 20 levels lower than Alice. It's actually fair to assume Alice slacked off due to her depression, and if they fought again in the game, she'd probably lose to Granberia.

If you stop and think, Alice was lucky. Pretty much all the other contenders were on her level or higher. Alma Elma just plain stopped fighting, because she didn't really care about becoming Monster Lord, and Tamamo and Erubetie, both of whom could've crushed young Alice like a bug, ended up KOing each other. Granberia was the one opponent Alice could realistically beat back then... which makes it a lucky coincidence that she was the one who ended up standing along with her in the end.

...And all this MGQ talk reminds me I need to finish chapter 9 of my fanfiction. See you all later.


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 12, 2012)

food's Complete Material III Translation said:
			
		

> Battle of Servants
> The battle between Servants can be called a process of gradually shaving off the magical energy that forms the their bodies. Attacks that consume a great amount of magical energy will inflict a massive amount of damage on the opponent, but it will also weaken yourself in the process. In order to inflict a great amount of damage with minimum expenditure of magical energy, it is necessary to collect intelligence regarding the enemy and assault his weakness.



The reason why you don't do damage to monsters is because they are physical bodies with magical energy, which is the target of the Angel Halo.

What would happen if you hit a magical body with it? They will get damaged instead.

To put it in easier terms, think about a weapon in an rpg game that absorbs MP, if you use it against enemies, they obviously won't get killed. 

But if you're are fighting servants however, think of their health as HP and MP as one.

Oh? And as for the weapons? Remember Gae Dearg, the spear that nullifies all magical projections? It didn't pass through Excalibur, remember?


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## Qinglong (Aug 12, 2012)

He harmed and sealed ghost girl who was stated directly physical attacks cannot harm, but attacks imbued with dark power would be effective on. Harming Servant bodies shouldn't be impossible for him, what is questionable is if Angel Halo is a NP, what rank would it be considered. 

EDIT: After checking he can cut prelati's which is A rank while being B rank, Invisible Air is C rank. Although I could have sworn Excalibur and some other swords had an enchantment making them indestructible. It was created by Fairies.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 12, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> He harmed and sealed ghost girl who was stated directly physical attacks cannot harm, but attacks imbued with dark power would be effective on. Harming Servant bodies shouldn't be impossible for him, what is questionable is if Angel Halo is a NP, what rank would it be considered.
> 
> EDIT: After checking he can cut prelati's which is A rank while being B rank, Invisible Air is C rank. Although I could have sworn Excalibur and some other swords had an enchantment making them indestructible. It was created by Fairies.



Except Invisible Air isn't really the Sword itself. it's something to cover up and conceal Excalibur from her opponents


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## TetsuoS2 (Aug 12, 2012)

I never said that he can't harm servants, as long as the object has a magical charge, iirc, then it can harm servants.



			
				Fate/Zero Vol.2 said:
			
		

> The countless alien demonic monsters on the ground all liquefied in the blink of an eye. The demonic monsters, which were originally created from the flesh and blood of the sacrifices, changed back into blood and scattered away. They lost the power to materialize into being the moment the prana supply from Prelati's Spellbook was terminated.
> Within the rapidly retreating Caster’s hands, the grimoire immediately activated its ability as a prana furnace and quickly regenerated the damaged cover. *The prana was only cut off during the brief moment when G?e Dearg’s blade was in contact with the grimoire; the spear had no power to damage the Noble Phantasm itself. *However, once canceled, the magecraft can’t be salvaged. Even if he wanted to repeat the summoning spell, Saber and Lancer’s holy sword and twin spears wouldn’t give him the time either.



As for the second one, only Arondight has the concept of indestructible.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 12, 2012)

It is to note that to seal monsters girls you have to do them the same damage it would take to kill them. Angel Halo is a sword, when the sword deals a damage that would kill a monster girl it seals her instead.

Aka its not a sealing that bypass durability and is auto seal like some people seem to think here, its an alternative to killing.

About the posters above, I havent forgot, but I am re-playing the game to be able to post the proper answers.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> She did try to kill him, or did you miss her attempting to blow her self up when she killed him.



Yes and it was one of my points, she tried.......... in the end of the fight which was at the point in which Luka was helpless and had to use talk no jutsu.




Xiammes said:


> Raping is the easiest way to kill someone in MGQ, if she tried physical moves like Taomao or Granberia she wouldn't damage Luka.



Except that if you lose the fight you become her sex slave, not die. So again she wasnt fighting to kill until the end.




Xiammes said:


> Luka could have defeated before that happened, he refused to seal her since he thought the fight was over.



Oh boy, you actually know only to answer this quote I had to go through that horrible horrible fight again . And no, it wasnt anywhere seen, when you defeat the triplets she use a bind that you cant shake and proceed with the nuke, so no at any point seen Luka could seal her bar when she surrenders.



Xiammes said:


> It says many times that Luka couldn't release his binding before, but even after a few tries he was able escape, the difference here being she would have detonated before he escaped. It was still a fair fight in which he bested her in combat.



Except that if you use struggle in all attempts you cant shake it off, when it would had in the fight normally been freed. Its just a conjeture at this point, there is no proof Luka could had shaken off the bind when the fight is he didnt and he was fighting like a madman to do it becuase he was about to die with the entire continent causing a slaughterhouse in the process. Such bind was completely bloodlusted and was the one he could not shake.

And no, it wasnt a fight in which he bested her in combat, he had to use talk no jutsu to win. Seriously, if he cant beat her bloodlusted then he cant, thats the fact, there was no way Luka could survive the nuke thus he used talk no jutsu instead, thats a fact. If I beat my adversary during the fight and then I have to use talk no jutsu because I cant defeat her best move then I have not bested her in combat, rather I bested her in combat up until the point where I cant face one of her abilities.




Xiammes said:


> Of course if she attacked him he would have lost, but he also didn't need the Quadruple giga to beat her.



Yes he did, her rebellion sword is unblockable one shot.




Xiammes said:


> She was not just attacking with "taps", considering she couldn't hurt Taomao before, and she was causing damage to Luka who has equal durability.



Except she herselfs says it "just a tap" when she attacks, also she says for her the fight up until that point was just a bout.




Xiammes said:


> It takes her a turn to start with vaporizing rebellion blade, in the mean time you can counter with your own Rebellion blade. It is completely possible to beat her without quadruple Giga in battle. I hate to bring up non canon shit, but in the NG+ mod, there is a rematch with Granberia where she is buffed up and you are the exact same and you can win normally, there is even a point where she starts spamming her strongest attacks.



It does? Or it does in the modded version where they obviously gave RB a turn to charge and a counter because otherwise it would be one shot and attacks values are modified?




Xiammes said:


> There is no reason to assume she wasn't going all out, she dropped at the end so Luka would to kill her  with the iron sword instead of sealing her with Angels Halo.



Luka didnt needed that, since during that fight he was using the iron sword from the beginning as instructd by alice. She instead decided to drop the fight.

If Luka is really stronger than her, then it means already that 2 of the Heavenly Knights are stronger than Alice, becuase Luka himself stated that he wouldnt be able to beat Granberia would had won easily if she wasnt waiting for Quadruple Giga, and the fact that he had no way to survive the nuke.

Thus this would mean that Nuke Erubiere and Granberia > Alice.




Xiammes said:


> Already covered it, Erubtia was revered for her fighting skill, not because of her ability to blow herself up. .



Thats has to be one of the worst if not the worst excuse I have seen. If a character has an ability is part of their fighting skills. This is like WayOfShinobi saying that Living Tribunal fighting Naruto using reality warping is cheap and didnt count as fighting.

If a character has an ability its part of their fighting skill, if another character cant beat said ability then they cant beat said character.




Xiammes said:


> You have a point here, but he has displayed sealing powers, no reason to assume he wouldn't have the intangibility to go along with it.



And there is no reason to assume he would, you know how OBD works, positive claim has to make the proof, no proof then you cant use it in the debate. I know I am sounding as a hater, but Im just stating the fight, Im confident that at Part 3 Luka will be able to do this, but he isnt at this level yet. The minimum for part 3 Luka will be planetary level and the maximum would be near universe level, since he is going to beat Ilias who could be planetary or near universal. I say near because it was stated Ilias cant break the laws of the universe so she isnt universe level, unless Luka actually surpass her to the point he can break the laws of the universe.



Xiammes said:


> What has Juubi shown that allows him to resist an attack the bypasses durability.



The attack doesnt bypass durability, its a physical attack that is so potent that it breaks through space-time attacks, kinda like when Hulk shattered an armor made of reality warping.


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## Lucifeller (Aug 13, 2012)

To be fair, Tamamo is likely the only person CAPABLE of stalling Erubetie. Being a 9 tailed fox means she's likely hundreds, possibly over a thousand, years old, and the sheer amount of magical knowledge she amassed in that timespan was likely what allowed her to match the sheer brokenness of the Queen Slime's best attack.

The truth is, Neverland Frontier is an instant kill for all intents and purposes, since it not only regresses the body to a child state, but also wipes all memories between the age it's regressed at and the age it was at before. Alice could beat Granberia because none of Berry's attacks worked again after she experienced them once thanks to her adapting to them immediately... but Neverland Frontier makes it impossible to adapt to it, as it wipes the memory of it being used on the victim as well. Alice literally has Tamamo to thank for becoming Monster Lord at all, because Erubetie was an unbeatable opponent for her at that time.

In fact, the battle against Erubetie is only winnable because the RNG makes her do stupid things. If Erubetie had an actual AI, you'd lose on the spot. The whole fight with her consists of setting Gnome and Undine up, and then sacrificing all your family to the Random Number God and praying she doesn't do any number of things that will be an instant kill on you. If you set Gnome up first and she uses Neverland Frontier (which requires Sylph to avoid), you lose. If you set up Sylph first and Erubetie uses Meltostorm, you get an instant 1700 damage KO. If you use Sylph and Erubetie uses Heaven's Prison or Divine Destiny, you lose because you can't struggle free without Gnome and her follow up is an instant KO.

And even if you set both spirits up correctly, if she decides to spam Meltostorm, you will more often than not be heal-locked until you die, because it hits consistently even through Sylph (makes sense, since it's a giant wave of AoE slime attack), and shears off half Luka's HP per hit even with Gnome up.


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## Zombehs (Aug 13, 2012)

Lucifeller said:


> To be fair, Tamamo is likely the only person CAPABLE of stalling Erubetie. Being a 9 tailed fox means she's likely hundreds, possibly over a thousand, years old, and the sheer amount of magical knowledge she amassed in that timespan was likely what allowed her to match the sheer brokenness of the Queen Slime's best attack.
> 
> The truth is, Neverland Frontier is an instant kill for all intents and purposes, since it not only regresses the body to a child state, but also wipes all memories between the age it's regressed at and the age it was at before. Alice could beat Granberia because none of Berry's attacks worked again after she experienced them once thanks to her adapting to them immediately... but Neverland Frontier makes it impossible to adapt to it, as it wipes the memory of it being used on the victim as well. Alice literally has Tamamo to thank for becoming Monster Lord at all, because Erubetie was an unbeatable opponent for her at that time.
> 
> ...



Yeah, basically the entire battle was bullshit. Too many fake difficulty battles in MGQ2 made it sometimes extremely frustrating to play through.

Like for the Lilith Twins, my god that battle was bullshit. Must have died at least half a dozen times, since they decided to spam their 2HKO move twice in a rwo.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

To be fair, I found Tamamo's battle to be the most difficult of them all, which is a shame because Tamamo is the MG I love the most and I cant simply replay the battle becuase its horrible.

Erubiete with a very specific strategy is easy, however yesterday I had to replay a lot to be able to find the strategy I used to beat her easily. Set both of the spirits up and simply attack her with nothing more bar the double criticals, you could use Undine + Serene Demon Sword I guess, but I dont remember if it was part of my original strategy which allowed me to defeat Undine very easily.

Well when she gets less than half, you just dont give a shit about your HP and simply spam Rebellion Sword, you only have to survive a hit from the triplets and after that you summon Salamander. You only need to have 2 sp when the triplets come and you are done. The entire battle depends of Sylph and Gnome not wearing out. Actually if you have Sylph on you HOPE her to use Neverland Frontier because with Sylph it ALWAYS dodges and its a wasted turn for her.

Tamamo on the other hand was sheer luck. The entire battle is dependant on her not using Nine Moons, an attack she actually spams.

But about the battle, Erubiete as I said even storywise was stronger than Luka who had no choice but to use talk no jutsu against nuke no jutsu. Neverland Frontier isnt Erubiete's strongest attack, its nuke no jutsu.


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## AliceKumo (Aug 13, 2012)

... is MGQ based on Monster Girl Encyclopedia?


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## Qinglong (Aug 13, 2012)

Seems that way unless I missed something (not sure on release dates)


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

AliceKumo said:


> ... is MGQ based on Monster Girl Encyclopedia?



Yes it is, look at the Encyclopedia and the MGs in MGQ, even the Minotaurus that is muscular in the encyclopedia is muscular in MGQ and Alice is a Lamia a species that is literally in the MGE.

However MGQ is a parallel universe, hence it has different history etc. As I said the MGE is leagues and bounds above MGQ's power level and the MGs are even more horny and less dangerous in the sense that in MGE you cant die from being sucked your spirit energy and they dont kill people bar to protect their husbands.

Basically MGQ is a MGE version that is yet more rpg-like and with more dangers, MGE which is the original is basically the "perfect waifu" version.

Also the author of the Encyclopedia designed some of the girls in MGQ.


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## AliceKumo (Aug 13, 2012)

Well i'll give it a try...

Hope there are some Dark Elfs in there.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

There's 1.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

Im surprised no one has made a Monster Girl rape thread


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## Qinglong (Aug 13, 2012)

I think my record is 12 to Lamia trying to have a move used before I realized it was mode based...


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

How well would MGs do against Narutoverse?


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## Qinglong (Aug 13, 2012)

I only have a few entries

Baphomet turns the women into lolis.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

Lilim basically has a magical charm spell that is basically a no drawbacks version of Jean Baptiste Grenouille's perfume they can also turn women immediatly and easily into monster girls, then there is also dark matter who has a AOE sphere that every monster on the place instantly gets horny, also they are able to corrupt the land making it a demon realm.

And of course, there is the Kunoichi which would be very valuable against Narutoverse. The 9 tailed Inaris have a power level comparable to the gods, so does the Ryus which can control climate, the dragons can tear steel like paper and incinerate metals in one shot.


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## Xiammes (Aug 13, 2012)

> Oh boy, you actually know only to answer this quote I had to go through that horrible horrible fight again . And no, it wasnt anywhere seen, when you defeat the triplets she use a bind that you cant shake and proceed with the nuke, so no at any point seen Luka could seal her bar when she surrenders.



Fair enough.




> Except that if you use struggle in all attempts you cant shake it off, when it would had in the fight normally been freed. Its just a conjeture at this point, there is no proof Luka could had shaken off the bind when the fight is he didnt and he was fighting like a madman to do it becuase he was about to die with the entire continent causing a slaughterhouse in the process. Such bind was completely bloodlusted and was the one he could not shake.



It says many times "I can't get free" only to free himself several attempts later. Their have been instances even with Gnome you need 5 turns of struggling to get free.




> > And no, it wasnt a fight in which he bested her in combat, he had to use talk no jutsu to win. Seriously, if he cant beat her bloodlusted then he cant, thats the fact, there was no way Luka could survive the nuke thus he used talk no jutsu instead, thats a fact. If I beat my adversary during the fight and then I have to use talk no jutsu because I cant defeat her best move then I have not bested her in combat, rather I bested her in combat up until the point where I cant face one of her abilities.



One of her abilities is to suicide, she isn't known as one of the strongest monsters in the world because she blow herself to oblivion, she is known for her combat prowess and physical stats, that's the version Luka beat.




> Yes he did, her rebellion sword is unblockable one shot.



One Shot, yes, unblockable no. Countering with your own rebellion sword negates it.





> Except she herselfs says it "just a tap" when she attacks, also she says for her the fight up until that point was just a bout.



Unless you are trying to say Granberia got so strong that her taps are able to hit past Gnomes durability(which is the same as Taomao's durability), which is something that she previously couldn't do. Here is the scan, it obviously wasn't taps, no matter what she was saying.






> It does? Or it does in the modded version where they obviously gave RB a turn to charge and a counter because otherwise it would be one shot and attacks values are modified?



RB needs a turn to charge for Granberia to summon fire, the same for Luka. Its the exact same fight with some extra scripting to make the fight harder and her to last longer. None of the attack values are modified.




> Luka didnt needed that, since during that fight he was using the iron sword from the beginning as instructd by alice. She instead decided to drop the fight.



I believe, but to say Alice dropped the fight at the end didn't really matter, her health was down and she didn't have a single ability that could finish Luka off.



> If Luka is really stronger than her, then it means already that 2 of the Heavenly Knights are stronger than Alice, becuase Luka himself stated that he wouldnt be able to beat Granberia would had won easily if she wasnt waiting for Quadruple Giga, and the fact that he had no way to survive the nuke.



 Alice wouldn't survive the Nuke either, none of the Heavenly Knights would have, I have a sick feeling thats how part 3 is going to begin, with Erubtia nuking herself.




> Thus this would mean that Nuke Erubiere and Granberia > Alice.



Nuke Erubtia is top tier, nothing baring Illias herself could survive it, unless we take into account Angel intangibility. 




> Thats has to be one of the worst if not the worst excuse I have seen. If a character has an ability is part of their fighting skills. This is like WayOfShinobi saying that Living Tribunal fighting Naruto using reality warping is cheap and didnt count as fighting.



Okay I'll ask you, why is Erubtia known as one of the most powerful monsters in the series? The skill kills her too, so it hardly counts as a win as everyone dies.



> If a character has an ability its part of their fighting skill, if another character cant beat said ability then they cant beat said character.



In Erubtia case, the match ends in a draw since Erubtia can't survive her own explosion. Or do you think that if Vegeta blows up the planet, kills himself and everyone else, it counts as a win?





> And there is no reason to assume he would, you know how OBD works, positive claim has to make the proof, no proof then you cant use it in the debate. I know I am sounding as a hater, but Im just stating the fight, Im confident that at Part 3 Luka will be able to do this, but he isnt at this level yet. The minimum for part 3 Luka will be planetary level and the maximum would be near universe level, since he is going to beat Ilias who could be planetary or near universal. I say near because it was stated Ilias cant break the laws of the universe so she isnt universe level, unless Luka actually surpass her to the point he can break the laws of the universe.



I understand, but we never see how Fallen Angel dance works, alls we know is that he dodges it, the screen goes crazy. For all we know, the attacks phased right through Luka 




> The attack doesnt bypass durability, its a physical attack that is so potent that it breaks through space-time attacks, kinda like when Hulk shattered an armor made of reality warping.



An attack that slices through time and space, what ever is occupying it, doesn't fair to well. They would need either a ability to resist it, or have impressive regeneration abilities. So yes for all intents and purposes, it is an attack that bypasses conventional durability.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 13, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> It says many times "I can't get free" only to free himself several attempts later. Their have been instances even with Gnome you need 5 turns of struggling to get free.



Except he didnt broke free and if he could, why use talk no jutsu? Assuming he could break free he could seal her and thus end the nuke.




Xiammes said:


> One of her abilities is to suicide, she isn't known as one of the strongest monsters in the world because she blow herself to oblivion, she is known for her combat prowess and physical stats, that's the version Luka beat.



Being known doesnt mean it isnt there, its still her ability and is part of her power, there arent 2 versions of Erubiete there is only one and it includes his nuke, even if there were 2 Luka couldnt defeat the most powerful version.

Just a question? Did Luka beat Erubiete yes or no? No, he had to use talk no jutsu, indeed the fight would have been a draw. But its a fact Luka did not beat her.



Xiammes said:


> One Shot, yes, unblockable no. Countering with your own rebellion sword negates it.



Oh boy...... you have no idea how much I hate you for doing this to me, now Im going to have to go through the fight again to corroborate it  wait here.

I did, and no in the original fight when Granberia states she is going full all out, isnt blockable, I attempted to block with my own vaporizing sword amped by Salamander and having more than 75% of my life, it cant be done, the fight cant be won without using Quadruple Giga unless of course you hack or mod the game.



Xiammes said:


> Unless you are trying to say Granberia got so strong that her taps are able to hit past Gnomes durability(which is the same as Taomao's durability), which is something that she previously couldn't do. Here is the scan, it obviously wasn't taps, no matter what she was saying.



Actually yes, she says she trained for years only to counter that but not only that, Tamamo states it wasnt a fair fight. Granberia claims they are taps, she claims up until the point when she attacks you with her ublockable one shot rebellion sword that the fight for her was nothing but a bout and then allows you to hit her with an ability that is a Monster Lord Killer, Luka himself claims that if Granberia didnt allowed him, it would be an easy win for her.




Xiammes said:


> RB needs a turn to charge for Granberia to summon fire, the same for Luka. Its the exact same fight with some extra scripting to make the fight harder and her to last longer. None of the attack values are modified.



And yet when the "bout" ends and she is going all out she attacks on the very same turn, putting both the sword in fire and then attacking in the same turn. Its only on the modded version where there is charging, even if there was is irrelevant becuase on the original fight nothing short of Quadruple Giga can defeat her.




Xiammes said:


> I believe, but to say Alice dropped the fight at the end didn't really matter, her health was down and she didn't have a single ability that could finish Luka off.



The oneshot ability, if she wasnt really fighting to kill its possible that you couldnt really dodge the bloodlusted attack that deals all of Ailce's attacks in a row.

Enforced that Alice wasnt going for the kill is the fact that she droped the fight, but not only that, if you lose to her she even says "Were you fighting seriously?" and she already had a plotted scenario if you lose to her, which doesnt involve you dying.





Xiammes said:


> Alice wouldn't survive the Nuke either, none of the Heavenly Knights would have, I have a sick feeling thats how part 3 is going to begin, with Erubtia nuking herself.



If Erubieta nukes herself it would be worse that Remina, and this is precisely what is being attempted to prevent a second slaughter.




Xiammes said:


> Nuke Erubtia is top tier, nothing baring Illias herself could survive it, unless we take into account Angel intangibility.



But then this would mean that 2 of the Heavenly Knights are stronger than Alice, nuke erubieta and Granberia since you only win because she allows you to use Quadruple Giga (I played the fight again, just to be able to see if there is ANY other way to beat her) and Luka claiming that indeed Granberia could defeat him.



Xiammes said:


> Okay I'll ask you, why is Erubtia known as one of the most powerful monsters in the series? The skill kills her too, so it hardly counts as a win as everyone dies.



Again its irrelevant, seriously is part of her abilites, she can use her. Its not a win but its still a draw, thus you dont beat her and you have to use talk no jutsu to win.

Thats like saying "Naruto stronger than X character, because X character is known for fighting with swords, not for warping reality." if its their skill they can use it, simple.



Xiammes said:


> In Erubtia case, the match ends in a draw since Erubtia can't survive her own explosion. Or do you think that if Vegeta blows up the planet, kills himself and everyone else, it counts as a win?



Okay, its a draw then, my point Luka didnt beat her, the most he could aim is a draw and this is assuming the unproven assumption that Luka could free himself from the bloodlusted bind which he neverdid.

Luka is not at the point where he can bat all 4 Heavenly Knights that are actually going all out, not that are going after his dick.

Ask yourself, why were the 4 anti-heavenly knights androids created? Exactly! This will be the point where Luka will show up he is > Heavenly Knights, as he will be fighting completely bloodlusted androids that arent after his dick and are actually all out going for the kill.

The same for Alice, why do you think the previous Monster Lord Dark Alice was revived? Again, it will be in this battle where Luka will prove he is above the Monster Lord since he will be fighting a ML that has no attatchment to him and is going all out bloodlusted and not after his dick.

Why do you think completely evil bloodlusted version of both the heavenly knights and Alice were brought? Luka will demonstrate by beating them that he is at the level of beating them when they arent after his dick and actually fighting all out.



Xiammes said:


> I understand, but we never see how Fallen Angel dance works, alls we know is that he dodges it, the screen goes crazy. For all we know, the attacks phased right through Luka



Yet there is no proof of that, and its a dodge, the sound effect is the same as a dodge as oppossed to the sound effect its produced by being unable to touch the Angel Monster Girls.



Xiammes said:


> An attack that slices through time and space, what ever is occupying it, doesn't fair to well. They would need either a ability to resist it, or have impressive regeneration abilities. So yes for all intents and purposes, it is an attack that bypasses conventional durability.



Great durability would do it.

That being said, my argument sums to this: Luka has impressive abilities, but he is lacking in durability, this is why he isnt yet on this level.

It was confirmed by Alice at the colliseum that monsters hold back on humans, which is consistant on a lesser level with the MGE which is the original work from which the MGQ parallel universe came. Luka doesnt have the durability to survive a fully bloodlusted swing from a Minotaurus.

The durability will eventually be made irrelevant if he becomes intangible in angel mode or increase his durablity. It only takes a good hit to beat him.

How is Luka going to beat Gilgamesh, whose one of his attacks is you know....... A NUKE?

This is why he isnt so far soloing Narutoverse, but Im confident he will at the end of part 3 and he may be able to solo the servants.


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## Xiammes (Aug 13, 2012)

> Except he didnt broke free and if he could, why use talk no jutsu? Assuming he could break free he could seal her and thus end the nuke.



You act like this is the first time Luka talked to someone mid battle.



> Being known doesnt mean it isnt there, its still her ability and is part of her power, there arent 2 versions of Erubiete there is only one and it includes his nuke, even if there were 2 Luka couldnt defeat the most powerful version.
> 
> Just a question? Did Luka beat Erubiete yes or no? No, he had to use talk no jutsu, indeed the fight would have been a draw. But its a fact Luka did not beat her.



Its a fact she couldn't beat him without resorting to nuking herself ends in a draw. 



> Oh boy...... you have no idea how much I hate you for doing this to me, now Im going to have to go through the fight again to corroborate it wait here.
> 
> I did, and no in the original fight when Granberia states she is going full all out, isnt blockable, I attempted to block with my own vaporizing sword amped by Salamander and having more than 75% of my life, it cant be done, the fight cant be won without using Quadruple Giga unless of course you hack or mod the game



my bad then.



> Actually yes, she says she trained for years only to counter that but not only that, Tamamo states it wasnt a fair fight. Granberia claims they are taps, she claims up until the point when she attacks you with her ublockable one shot rebellion sword that the fight for her was nothing but a bout and then allows you to hit her with an ability that is a Monster Lord Killer, Luka himself claims that if Granberia didnt allowed him, it would be an easy win for her.



Attacking with her strongest doesn't mean the rest of her attacks are taps, assuming they are taps, she would be stronger then Alice.



> The oneshot ability, if she wasnt really fighting to kill its possible that you couldnt really dodge the bloodlusted attack that deals all of Ailce's attacks in a row.



You have no basis to say that Alice could hit with her oneshot attacks if Luka guards it, the fact he has 2 dodging abilities that counters her attacks along with guard where he prepares. It also suffers from charge up time predictability and gives Luka a free turn.



> Enforced that Alice wasnt going for the kill is the fact that she droped the fight, but not only that, if you lose to her she even says "Were you fighting seriously?" and she already had a plotted scenario if you lose to her, which doesnt involve you dying.



Obviously with the "were you fighting seriously" comes from the fact he should have been able to beat her.



> If Erubieta nukes herself it would be worse that Remina, and this is precisely what is being attempted to prevent a second slaughter.



Its just a gut feeling, the Angel army proves to be powerful to defeat at the moment in time. Erubieta prepares to nuke herself while you and Alice and possible the other 3 knights escape. Its just a little theory of mine.



> But then this would mean that 2 of the Heavenly Knights are stronger than Alice, nuke erubieta and Granberia since you only win because she allows you to use Quadruple Giga (I played the fight again, just to be able to see if there is ANY other way to beat her) and Luka claiming that indeed Granberia could defeat him.



I was wrong about Granberia. Her training obviously allowed her to become stronger then Alice who hasn't done jack shit since. Erubtia is the most destructive person in the series, but it doesn't mean shit since she dies in the process.



> Thats like saying "Naruto stronger than X character, because X character is known for fighting with swords, not for warping reality." if its their skill they can use it, simple.



A more apt comparison would be, Hellmaster isn't stronger then Lina because she can use the Gigaslave. Okay not the best comparison but its better then the one you gave.



> Okay, its a draw then, my point Luka didnt beat her, the most he could aim is a draw and this is assuming the unproven assumption that Luka could free himself from the bloodlusted bind which he neverdid.



Its conjecture to assume he couldn't, we have plenty of examples in the series where the text says Luka can't escape, even with .



> Luka is not at the point where he can bat all 4 Heavenly Knights that are actually going all out, not that are going after his dick.



Of course not, they are among the strongest monsters in the world, only after mastering the 4 spirits he is on their level.



> Ask yourself, why were the 4 anti-heavenly knights androids created? Exactly! This will be the point where Luka will show up he is > Heavenly Knights, as he will be fighting completely bloodlusted androids that *arent after his dick and are actually all out going for the kill.*



Actually, they seemed to be as horny as the rest of the monsters.



> The same for Alice, why do you think the previous Monster Lord Dark Alice was revived? Again, it will be in this battle where Luka will prove he is above the Monster Lord since he will be fighting a ML that has no attatchment to him and is going all out bloodlusted and not after his dick.



Plot, Ilias brought Dark Alice battle to balance the forces of the universe or some crap.



> Why do you think completely evil bloodlusted version of both the heavenly knights and Alice were brought? Luka will demonstrate by beating them that he is at the level of beating them when they arent after his dick and actually fighting all out.



Mayber because Ilias army can't defeat Luka + Alice + 4 heavenly knights and they created monsters to counter the 4 heavenly knights, they are mass producing spirits to counter Luka.



> Great durability would do it.



Durability is irreverent to attack that targets the space not the person, you need other ways to defend against it. Basically you need feats of resisting attacks that target space.  



> That being said, my argument sums to this: Luka has impressive abilities, but he is lacking in durability, this is why he isnt yet on this level.




Why not accept his Mountain level claims 



> How is Luka going to beat Gilgamesh, whose one of his attacks is you know....... A NUKE?



I never said he could be Gilgamesh

Anyways I am out, this discussion is pointless as it has nothing to do with this thread, just pointless theories.


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## Crimson King (Aug 13, 2012)

Akasha, seeing that Luka does not belong here, deletes him.


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