# Kimimaro vs. Rusty Tsunade



## Ersa (Nov 16, 2013)

*Location*: Sannin Showdown
*Distance*: 10m
*Knowledge*: Full
*Mindset*: In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions*:
- Kimimaro is healthy.


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## richard lewis (Nov 16, 2013)

Tsunade grabs him and plants an earth shattering punch square in his face. She doesn't care if haku slices her up a bit b4 grabbing him b/c she will heal afterward.


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## Ersa (Nov 16, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Tsunade grabs him and plants an earth shattering punch square in his face. She doesn't care if haku slices her up a bit b4 grabbing him b/c she will heal afterward.


Just like she did to a slower Kabuto who didn't have Cursed Seal, am I right?


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 16, 2013)

w/ full intel, I don't see why Kimi couldn't counter the slug divisions with bone forest teleporting... So I say kimi wins high diff.

but generally speaking, Kimi likely works her flesh, cuts off an arm & stabs Tsunade in the head


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2013)

Tsunade turns Kimimaro's chest into a vagina.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Tsunade turns Kimimaro's chest into a vagina.



Eww that's a horrible image.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2013)

ChaddyMan1 said:


> Eww that's a horrible image.



Kimimaro's chest vagina or Tsunade's entire fist all up in it?


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## Bonly (Nov 16, 2013)

Full knowledge? I'd go with Tsunade due to the fact that she can outlast him, heal from most of what he can dish out and has the Great Katsuyu-Sama. Unless Kimi can touch the ground faster then Tsunade make a handseal to use Byakugo, Kimi is going to lose as long as Tsunade has full knowledge.


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## richard lewis (Nov 16, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Just like she did to a slower Kabuto who didn't have Cursed Seal, am I right?



yup. except in kabuto's case she scrambled his nervous system, which by the way is also a viable option here and w/o an extensive understanding of the human body I doubt kimmimaru could fight with a scrambled nervous system as easily as kabuto did.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 16, 2013)

Tsunade could barely touch Kabuto, so Kimimaro being a tier faster and over a tier more skilled at taijutsu is not getting touched. Healthy Kimimaro would probably be even more impressive with a full 5/5 speed, etc. She stands no chance in a contest of finesse.

Besides, even if Kimimaro took a direct blow to the face, _like Orochimaru did_, he has the Kaguya kekkei genkai that Orochimaru wanted, which allows him to create bone armor more durable than steel and regenerate flesh instantly. He can tank hits no problem.

Furthermore, he can also jut out swords at the last moment right where Tsunade is punching, meaning that she's only going to skewer her hand without doing much damage, and also leave herself wide open to getting a swift counter-stab through the face.

However, with full knowledge, my usual opinion of Kimimaro winning is a little fuzzy, because Tsunade knows everything I just said, so she'll summon Katsuya. And from there it's more of a stalemate, as Kimimaro can dodge acid no problem. 

And since this is healthy Kimimaro, who had an impressive amount of stamina even when sick (due to his kekkei genkai regen,) he isn't going to drop dead or tire very easily. He created _hundreds of thousands of pounds_ of bones before doing so when sick, guys. 

So yeah. It's a draw because Katsuya is a bitch to kill. But Kimimaro is easily the superior between these two, and I'd back him taking on part II Tsunade for similar reasons as stated above. But in part one, it's no contest. Kimimaro is just an overall better version of her.​


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## Veracity (Nov 16, 2013)

Tsunade with full knowledge + Katsuyu results in the end of Kimmi. 

Once Tsunade started getting serious(after Kabuto) she started wrecking everyone's shit. She paneled Manda , then proceeded to humiliate Oro.

The same Oro who was going toe to toe with a 4k Naruto. Kimmi cannot hope to even come close to a 4k Naruto while even Rusty Tsunade(healthy tears him to shreds for awhile) has a chance similar to Oros.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 16, 2013)

I don't think having bones with 'stronger-than-steel' durability is going to help Kimimaro in this case, because we're talking a woman that can render craters with her punches.

Steel is fucking *piss* compared to that. Now, when it comes to range and taijutsu skill? That may play a factor.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Nov 16, 2013)

Does this include Hemophobia? 

Because that's basically Bone Boy's only chance.


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 16, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> yup. except in kabuto's case she scrambled his nervous system, *which by the way is also a viable option here *and w/o an extensive understanding of the human body I doubt kimmimaru could fight with a scrambled nervous system as easily as kabuto did.



no, no its not; go read that part again...


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## Mithos (Nov 16, 2013)

As long as Tsunade doesn't have hemophobia she wins. 

Souzou Saisei nd her resilience will protect Tsunade from pretty much anything Kimi will dish out. If he impales her - as is bound to happen - Tsunade can grab him and either smash his face in or paralyze him with Ranshinshou. 

Katsuyu offers good support in large acid blasts that can bypass Kimi's durability. Katsuyu is also immune to the type of damage Kimi deals so he can't take out the slug. 

Even when Rusty and in a situation where she was stacked with disadvantages, Tsunade was besting someone of Kakashi's level without Katsuyu or her regeneration. Tsunade is just on another level.


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## Vice (Nov 16, 2013)

Tsunade couldn't even beat Kabuto, Kimimaro was tanking Gaara's sand.

Please.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Nov 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kimimaro's chest vagina or Tsunade's entire fist all up in it?



The chest vagina of course. I hate creepy anatomy


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## Baroxio (Nov 16, 2013)

Either Tsunade summons Katsuya or Tsunade looses. Kimimaro is faster, more reflexive, and incredibly difficult to land an attack on. Plus he has useful range attacks in the form of his Dances and bullet fingers.

It will be a tough, and grueling match where Tsunade could likely end him with a good well-placed hit (that would be almost impossible if Kimimaro uses Dance of the Pines), but eventually Kimimaro would take it.

Unless Tsunade is smart enough to summon Katsuya, which easily wipes the floor with Kimimaro, no questions asked.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 16, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't think having bones with 'stronger-than-steel' durability is going to help Kimimaro in this case, because we're talking a woman that can render craters with her punches.
> 
> Steel is fucking *piss* compared to that. Now, when it comes to range and taijutsu skill? That may play a factor.



Well, "stronger than" is important. Kimimaro's defensive jutsu tanked an attack that turns ninja to juice. His flesh was literally peeled from his body in the sand coffin and he shrugged it off.

Not many ninja can get back up from a punch from Tsunade. Orochimaru is one of the few. But Kimimaro is definitely among that few as well, and he can take them better than even Orochimaru. 
​


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## Baroxio (Nov 16, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Well, "stronger than" is important. Kimimaro's defensive jutsu tanked an attack that turns ninja to juice. His flesh was literally peeled from his body in the sand coffin and he shrugged it off.
> 
> Not many ninja can get back up from a punch from Tsunade. Orochimaru is one of the few. But Kimimaro is definitely among that few as well, and he can take them better than even Orochimaru.
> ​


I'm actually of the opinion that if Tsunade was able to get a good clean hit on him without him using Dance of the Pines or anything similar, she'd be able to break his bones and deal massive damage.

But not only is that unlikely due to faster speed, better reflexes, and the existence of Dance of the Pines, but even if she does break through the bones, they'll cushion off a huge amount of their force, and then Kimimaro could just regenerate the damage.

That said, the "Orochimaru survived" argument, while nicely done, can likely be explained away as some version of the "Tsunade was Rusty" argument.


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## Veracity (Nov 17, 2013)

Oro is specifically designed to take blunt force damage. He was taking direct hits from 4k Naruto like it was nothing.

Mind you Tsunade with a causal leg dropped created a crater superior to a full powered liger bomb - lifted and traveled with a sword the size of a skyscraper - and created fissures on the ground with her damn finger.

Not to mention you could directly power scale a Rusty Tsunade to the Oro that fought 4k Naruto meaning she would give him a hell of a lot of problems.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 17, 2013)

Unlike Kabuto, I don't Kimi is going to spend 90% of the match dodging around the field.  He'll probably be much more aggressive, which will open up more opening for her.  But they're equal in taijutsu mastery, and he's faster, and knows what's going on with her, so he can afford to.

I still think Tsunade should still win, but she's probably going to be needing SS to do it, and the entire match is going to be a gigantic struggle for her, and her win will probably come from deception or trickery or some other tactic than straight up combat.  She's going to be very hurt by the time she hits him, though when she does, it's game over.

This isn't counting summoning, which just lets her win.  Kimi doesn't have an answer for that.

I consider both rusty Tsunade and healthy Kimi low kage level anyway.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

while kimimaro is faster than this tsunade, just one of her punches could KO him,

if kimi tries bone bullets tsunade will just go ballist..

wait this is rusty tsunade ? as in the boodphobia tsunade ?

yea kimi should take this somewhat easily,


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## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2013)

Vice said:


> Tsunade couldn't even beat Kabuto, Kimimaro was tanking Gaara's sand.
> 
> Please.



Tsunade would use pre-skip Gaara like a tampon.



ChaddyMan1 said:


> The chest vagina of course. I hate creepy anatomy



So then I'm guessing you don't want me to tell you what happens when Tsunade busts out the "toys."


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## Baroxio (Nov 17, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Oro is specifically designed to take blunt force damage. He was taking direct hits from 4k Naruto like it was nothing.
> 
> Mind you Tsunade with a causal leg dropped created a crater superior to a full powered liger bomb - lifted and traveled with a sword the size of a skyscraper - and created fissures on the ground with her damn finger.
> 
> Not to mention you could directly power scale a Rusty Tsunade to the Oro that fought 4k Naruto meaning she would give him a hell of a lot of problems.


Oro is designed for defense and Kimimaro isn't? Wasn't Kimimaro's defensive bloodline the literal reason Orochimaru wanted him as a container in the first place?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 17, 2013)

Oro has defence in the ability to get ripped in half and snake himself back together.

Kimi has defence in the ability to not get ripped in half in the first place.

It's classic bending grass vs mighty oak, with Tsunade's punch it the hurricane that topples the latter.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

^ thats not defence, thats HP,


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## Veracity (Nov 17, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Oro is designed for defense and Kimimaro isn't? Wasn't Kimimaro's defensive bloodline the literal reason Orochimaru wanted him as a container in the first place?



They have different durabilty strong points. Oros is specifically Blunt force damage which I already proved. Tsunade creates craters superior to fucking V2 Ay, and lifts skyscraper sized swords effortlessly. Oro HAS to be resistant to that type of pain while Kimmi is not. His first layer of bone was literally obliterated by a simple sand coffin. The same sand coffin that failed to "liquify"(LOL) a severely weakened(gates shredded muscles) durabilty lacking Lee.  Tsunade is going to destroy him with a punch.

Who said Oro wanted Kimmi just for his defense? He probabaly wanted him because of his added defense - Added range - Kekkei Genkai - and youth. It would overall make a more powerful ninja against all ninja except specifically Tsunade. Lol it's like saying Oro wanted Sasuke for his base Sharingan. Lol or just the added effects it would have Oro.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> His first layer of bone was literally obliterated by a simple sand coffin. The same sand coffin that failed to "liquify"(LOL)



No need for quotations. It's a word, but it's spelled liquefy.

Secondly, no bones were obliterated. What are you basing that view on? His skin was ripped off because the bone armor was what endured it, but the bones were fine, and his flesh regenerated.​


Likes boss said:


> a severely weakened(gates shredded muscles) durabilty lacking Lee.



Against Lee, Gai interrupted the jutsu and only a thinner layer of sand was wrapped around Lee's limbs. We've seen what happens when there's more sand, as Diedara and Shigure had noting left.​


Likes boss said:


> Tsunade creates craters superior to fucking V2 Ay



Don't overblow punching craters. You know who punched the biggest craters? . The poor dude Kimimaro casually slapped around as part of his job. So yeah. Craters. Not a big deal.

In fact, I feel like Jūgo more or less directly implied that Kimimaro was the only person that could take those hits because of his kekkei genkai, and calmly control him when he went berserk.

Kimimaro was also employed to gently slap around another ninja that punched craters: . So it's incredibly unlikely that Kimimaro couldn't handle crater-punching strength.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Oro has defence in the ability to get ripped in half and snake himself back together.
> 
> Kimi has defence in the ability to not get ripped in half in the first place



Kimimaro has regeneration too. And is a bone logia.​


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## richard lewis (Nov 17, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> no, no its not; go read that part again...



Why is that not an option?


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2013)

Tsunade takes this by activating SS, grabbing Kimi when Kimi goes for kill shot and smashes his face in.


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## Vice (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Tsunade would use pre-skip Gaara like a tampon.



The same way she did with Kabuto, right?


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## Ghost (Nov 17, 2013)

Kabuto is well above pre-skip Gaara m8


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## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

Seriously? Tsunade doesn't need SS. She neither needs Katsuya to win this. "Rusty" Tsunade was only a bit weaker than Kabuto, who was Kakashi's equal back then. Tsunade will rape Kimimaro in less than a minute. What is he supposed to do against he? His guard worthless when it comes to her strength.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Tsunade would use pre-skip Gaara like a tampon.
> 
> 
> 
> So then I'm guessing you don't want me to tell you what happens when Tsunade busts out the "toys."



At least you didn't say anything about her growing something  I'd be very disturbed.


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## Veracity (Nov 17, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> No need for quotations. It's a word, but it's spelled liquefy.
> 
> Secondly, no bones were obliterated. What are you basing that view on? His skin was ripped off because the bone armor was what endured it, but the bones were fine, and his flesh regenerated.​
> 
> ...



His outside layer of bone was completely destroyed, and even commented saying the technique would have killed him if he didn't take action in time.

No, Gai did not interrupt the Justu. Lees arm and leg successfully got Sand Coffined, Gai interrupted  Lees entire body from being destroyed. 

I honestly don't seethe difference between the amount of sand he used against others?(except Deidara) & with Deidara he ripped his at off into the sand, of course nothing was left.

You also have to take into consideration the durability of said opponents he liquefies(autocorrect). Of their durability is piss poor like fodders and Lee and Deidara(all have weak durabilty feats) then it's no that impressive. But say he was to Sand coffin Kisame or Tsunade or Sandaime Raikage. He would get absolutely nowhere. Especially in part 1. His part 1 sand coffin is not even close to the physical output Tsunade can put out.

 True Jiribo and Jugo can create craters, problem is they are extremely slow and inexperienced. Especially  considering the Jugo that Kimmi was ""handling"  was a lot younger and could have been half the strength. Pain arc Naruto - Current Naruto.

Yeah craters are sort of irrelevant and don't indicate the level if strength the ninja truly has.
Jugo creates giant craters but punches like a complete bitch. A Casual KB, tanked his full powdered attack, while his older brother was cracking Sussano ribs, and his teammate was stated to be stronger then him and was obliterating the Sussano instead. 

The problem is this is Rusty Tsunade, but I still think she can kill him with a single punch(before I was arguing for Current Tsunade who obviously kills him with a finger; literally). We must not forget that this Tsunade punches of similar power to a 4k Naruto. I just don't add Kimmi surviving any attack from that level of Naruto. As well as Tsunade creating craters with her finger? In complete honesty, the craters she should have dwarfed even V1 KB.


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## Baroxio (Nov 17, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> His outside layer of bone was completely destroyed, and even commented saying the technique would have killed him if he didn't take action in time.




lol wut?


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## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2013)

Vice said:


> The same way she did with Kabuto, right?



Kabuto took two soldier pills before fighting her, exploited a psychological weakness Gaara would have no way of knowing about, and used extensive anatomical knowledge Gaara doesn't have to adapt to the changes in his nervous system that Tsunade caused with Ranshinshou. And he never had to deal with Katsuyu or Byakugou, either.

That said, even Kabuto would beat part 1 Gaara, provided he did so before any Bijuu transformation occurred.

But no one is really stupid enough to believe a part 1 Genin can handle a Sannin, so I can only assume that you're just messing around.



ChaddyMan1 said:


> At least you didn't say anything about her growing something  I'd be very disturbed.



Of course not. After all the trouble she went through to have it removed surgically...


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## Veracity (Nov 17, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> lol wut?



Eh. Guess I was wrong about that specific thing. Doesn't change anything though. 

If his Sand Buriel cannot liquefy a weakened Rock Lee( still could walk) and only kill absolute fodders with no durabilty feats, then it shouldn't even phase Kimi. 

Yeah, so are you gonna reply to the many posts I quoted of yours, or just this specific part?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm stupid enough to think pI Gaara can trouble rusty Tsunade.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2013)

He can trouble her but he doesn't have a chance in hell of winning.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm stupid enough to think he has a chance in hell of winning.


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## Baroxio (Nov 17, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I'm stupid enough to think pI Gaara can trouble rusty Tsunade.


P1 Garra can solo Kabuto, but he can't do shit against Tsunade. We've seen from the Kimimaro fights that he has problems with people who can basically bulldoze through his sand, and no amount of Sand Armor in the world is going to save him from Tsunade's atacking power.

On second thought though, he may have a chance dependin on how smartly he is able to play the matchup and if Katsuya is restricted. If he flies up into the air and grinds enough sand to catch everything, then he can just quicksand Tsunade and have her die of asphyxiation. So in that sense, yeah, Part 1 Gaara could totally win.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2013)

I think sand armor + shield could allow him to survive a hit. Gated Lee basically tore a stone arena apart just from moving, and Gaara tanked dozens fo hits from that sort of power.

Anywho, I made a thread about it.​


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## LostSelf (Nov 17, 2013)

Healthy Kimimaro should be able to best rusty Tsunade confortably, especially if he has cursed seal. To the point of outlasting her stamina. Tsunade, at this point, hasn't shown to be gathering chakra (I can be wrong here). But she is hardly contending with someone that fast and with such taijutsu level of skill.

If she doesn't use Katsuyu, she's not beating him. And Kimimaro might still win here if bone forest forces the slug to divide.


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## Vice (Nov 17, 2013)

Kabuto isn't doing shit to part 1 Gaara or Kimimaro. That assertion is absurd.


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## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't know how people can compare Part 1 Gaara and Kabuto. Hell, Kabuto was known as Kakashi's equal! His abilities are insane, and he is smarter than anyone. Part 1 Gaara was worthy of being a great Chuunin, but Kabuto could have been a worthy Anbu! Kabuto can simply harm his enemies from the inside. He was trying NOT to kill Tsunade and he still won. You can't tell me he is anywhere near fodders like Part 1 Gaara or Kimimaro. That guy is WAY too smart and powerful for that.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Tsunade would use pre-skip Gaara like a tampon.
> 
> 
> 
> So then I'm guessing you don't want me to tell you what happens when Tsunade busts out the "toys."



Someone give me brain bleach please


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## Vice (Nov 17, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> I don't know how people can compare Part 1 Gaara and Kabuto.



Gaara's a bijuu.



> Hell, Kabuto was known as Kakashi's equal!



In intelligence maybe.



> His abilities are insane



What abilities? His medical jutsu? Lol.



> and he is smarter than anyone.



Cute. Gaara's a bijuu. 



> Part 1 Gaara was worthy of being a great Chuunin



He was also considered Orochimaru's trump card for his invasion of Konoha.



> but Kabuto could have been a worthy Anbu! Kabuto can simply harm his enemies from the inside.



Please tell me what Kabuto can do against Shukaku.



> He was trying NOT to kill Tsunade and he still won.



Yes, Tsunade is quite pathetic.



> You can't tell me he is anywhere near fodders like Part 1 Gaara or Kimimaro. That guy is WAY too smart and powerful for that.



Fodder? Fucking ridiculous. Part 1 Kabuto is trash.


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## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

Vice said:


> Gaara's a bijuu.


Yeah, the weakest one who was defeated by a few Genins.




Vice said:


> In intelligence maybe.



He was said to be Kakashi's equal a million times. Kabuto was smarter than Kakashi. Read the Data Book. Kakashi had a 4.5 while Kabuto had a 5.





Vice said:


> What abilities? His medical jutsu? Lol.


Because being able to stop your heart with just one attack isn't impressive, right?




Vice said:


> Cute. Gaara's a bijuu.


As I said: The weakest Bijuu.




Vice said:


> He was also considered Orochimaru's trump card for his invasion of Konoha.


Which doesn't put him even close to Kabuto's level.



Vice said:


> Please tell me what Kabuto can do against Shukaku.


Climb up and stop Gaara's heart to kill both him and the Bijuu.





Vice said:


> Yes, Tsunade is quite pathetic.


No. It's just that Kabuto was too strong.




Vice said:


> Fodder? Fucking ridiculous. Part 1 Kabuto is trash.


lol.


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## Vice (Nov 17, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> Yeah, the weakest one who was defeated by a few Genins.



And a boss summon. Remind me, does Kabuto have one?



> He was said to be Kakashi's equal a million times. Kabuto was smarter than Kakashi. Read the Data Book. Kakashi had a 4.5 while Kabuto had a 5.



And yet feats suggest otherwise.



> Because being able to stop your heart with just one attack isn't impressive, right?



And that has what to do with taking out a bijuu?



> As I said: The weakest Bijuu.



Still stronger than Kabuto.



> Which doesn't put him even close to Kabuto's level.



Uh, what? It puts him higher.

Are you intentionally being stupid right now?



> Climb up and stop Gaara's heart to kill both him and the Bijuu.



Because Shukaku's just going to stand there doing nothing to let him do it, right?



> No. It's just that Kabuto was too strong.



lol. How does Kabuto escape Prison Sand Burial? Think hard now, he's really strong right?



> lol.





> Are you intentionally being stupid right now?



Okay, question answered. You must be.


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## Ersa (Nov 17, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov, Kabuto suggested no one in Konoha at the time could stop Kimimaro.

That includes Part I Kakashi and Rusty Tsunade without Sozo Saisei. It even implies he's superior to Kabuto himself. I highly doubt he is fodder. And Kabuto's 3.5 Spe / 2.5 Tai isn't going shit to Kimimaro's 4.5 Spe / 5 Tai. Also add on Cursed Seal and Kimimaro murderstomps Kabuto in CQC.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 17, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Emporio Ivankov, Kabuto suggested no one in Konoha at the time could stop Kimimaro.
> 
> That includes Part I Kakashi and Rusty Tsunade without Sozo Saisei.



What Kabuto suggested was that nobody Konoha could _send_ after Sasuke could stop Kimimaro. That automatically _*ex*_cludes Part 1 Kakashi and rusty Tsunade (who had _Sōzō Saisei_) because the village's Jōnin, _including Kakashi himself_, were out on other missions already and Tsunade as the Hokage cannot just up and leave her village behind when it's in such a devastated condition.

On a smaller note, Kabuto actually had a 3.5 in Taijutsu.


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## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

Vice said:


> And a boss summon. Remind me, does Kabuto have one?


Why would he need one? Naruto only needed it to reach Gaara. Kabuto is MUCH faster and physically stronger than Part 1 Naruto. Would he really need one?



Vice said:


> And yet feats suggest otherwise.


Nope.





Vice said:


> And that has what to do with taking out a bijuu?


Kabuto only has to kill Gaara to kill the Bijuu. Stopping Gaara's heart = taking out Bijuu.




Vice said:


> Still stronger than Kabuto.



Nope.




Vice said:


> Uh, what? It puts him higher.
> 
> Are you intentionally being stupid right now?



LOL. Nope.





Vice said:


> Because Shukaku's just going to stand there doing nothing to let him do it, right?


Providing that Shukaki can keep up with Kabuto's speed, his ability to hide underground AND providing that Gaara has the chance to turn into Shukaku before Kabuto kills him.





Vice said:


> lol. How does Kabuto escape Prison Sand Burial? Think hard now, he's really strong right?


His speed is almost on par with Pre-Skip Lee's base speed (Kabuto= 3.5 and Lee= 4), so who says that Gaara can even catch him easily? And let's not forget that Kabuto could easily fool Gaara with a fake corpse, IF he needed that.






Vice said:


> Okay, question answered. You must be.


Wow. Flaming much? Listen, if you can't come up with good arguments, don't leave it out on me, buddy. 



Kyokan said:


> Emporio Ivankov, Kabuto suggested no one in Konoha at the time could stop Kimimaro.
> 
> That includes Part I Kakashi and Rusty Tsunade without Sozo Saisei. It even implies he's superior to Kabuto himself. I highly doubt he is fodder. And Kabuto's 3.5 Spe / 2.5 Tai isn't going shit to Kimimaro's 4.5 Spe / 5 Tai. Also add on Cursed Seal and Kimimaro murderstomps Kabuto in CQC.



Really? First of all, he never said that. But even if, how does it imply that he is above Kabuto's level? Do you really think it's a fact that Kimimaro is stronger than anyone in Konoha? Do you really think that after watching him struggling while fighting a Genin is a horrible medical condition? Just how much do you overestimate him!? Kimimaro is not even close to the Leaf's higher ups.  And Tsunade's strength was said to be the same as always, which means her strength was at 5 while Kabuto's was at 3. Did he lose because of that? No he didn't. Kabuto is no Taijutsu combatant, if you didn't know already. Taijutsu is not all.


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## Ersa (Nov 17, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> What Kabuto suggested was that nobody Konoha could _send_ after Sasuke could stop Kimimaro. That automatically _*ex*_cludes Part 1 Kakashi and rusty Tsunade (who had _Sōzō Saisei_) because the village's Jōnin, _including Kakashi himself_, were out on other missions already and Tsunade as the Hokage cannot just up and leave her village behind when it's in such a devastated condition.
> 
> On a smaller note, Kabuto actually had a 3.5 in Taijutsu.


I have trained in the ways of debating, today I will win 

Kabuto's quote suggested no one in Konoha, here. He did not know if Kakashi was out on a mission to be honest as the Sound 4 saw Kakashi in the village and might have notified him. The hype itself suggests Kabuto himself cannot beat Kimimaro and as we know Kabuto = Part I Kakashi. Tsunade probably didn't have much chakra in her seal as she expended it all after the Sannin showdown.

My bad, Kabuto got bumped up to 3.5 in the later part of Part I. It still stands that a CS-boosted Kimimaro would masscre Kimimaro in CQC due to vastly superior speed, his Kekkai Genkai and his 5 in taijutsu.


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## Rosencrantz (Nov 17, 2013)

Unlike Kabuto, he does not have soldier pills. An exhausted AND rusty Tsunade without Genesis Rebirth, Byakugou, AND Katsuya was enough to take on a Kakashi level opponent and force a draw. Stats are cute and all, but they are supplementary. Kabuto is Kakashi level and Tsunade drew with him without using byakugou, katsuya, genesis rebirth while exhausted.

Tsuande wins this match.


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## Veracity (Nov 17, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I have trained in the ways of debating, today I will win
> 
> Kabuto's quote suggested no one in Konoha, here. He did not know if Kakashi was out on a mission to be honest as the Sound 4 saw Kakashi in the village and might have notified him. The hype itself suggests Kabuto himself cannot beat Kimimaro and as we know Kabuto = Part I Kakashi. Tsunade probably didn't have much chakra in her seal as she expended it all after the Sannin showdown.
> 
> My bad, Kabuto got bumped up to 3.5 in the later part of Part I. It still stands that a CS-boosted Kimimaro would masscre Kimimaro in CQC due to vastly superior speed, his Kekkai Genkai and his 5 in taijutsu.



I don't understand how you use that as a means of debate? To make matters worse, Kabuto said " there is nobody who can beat Kimimaro" which is even more of an exaggeration then what your assuming.

Saying Kimi can beat everyone in Konoha( scan actually said everyone period) just because  Kabuto said so simply cannot be used. How much does Kabuto know about anybody for that matter?

So Tsunade and Gated Gai cannot beat Kimi based off of that specific comment made by a completely irrelevant character ? 

The hype itself is completely false and an exaggeration on Kishis part. Think about it.

- The hype itself would mean Kimi is stronger then Hiruzen, the strongest version of Oro Kabuto has seen,  Jirayia with Summoning, Tsunade with summoning, and all the Leaf Jounin. That's some bullshit.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 17, 2013)

I do not see kimimaro taking a counter attack from tsunade which will come after he gets a hit in at this close distance. Besides her tank and counterattack trick she also can resort to katsuyu or creation rebirth if the match starts to get dragged out. 

Kimimaro's superior speed is not enough to fight a taijutsu boss with other high level tricks. He won't be functioning right if he get from tsunade(provided he does not die) and she can regen from he sickest stabs and slicing if it comes down to it. 

Tsunade takes it with maybe mid diff due to his agility but it would just be all for show in the end.


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## Vice (Nov 17, 2013)

Bansai said:


> Why would he need one? Naruto only needed it to reach Gaara. Kabuto is MUCH faster and physically stronger than Part 1 Naruto. Would he really need one?



Uh, yes. To avoid being annihilated by Shukaku.



> Nope.



What feats does Kabuto have that puts him above Kakashi, much less fucking Shukaku?



> Kabuto only has to kill Gaara to kill the Bijuu. Stopping Gaara's heart = taking out Bijuu.



And he has to get around Shukaku to do so. 



> Nope.
> 
> LOL. Nope.



Nice counter arguments. Legit question, are you trolling right now?



> Providing that Shukaki can keep up with Kabuto's speed



 

Seriously?



> his ability to hide underground



Yeah, about the best he could do is try to hide from a rampaging bijuu.



> AND providing that Gaara has the chance to turn into Shukaku before Kabuto kills him.



I don't even think Gaara even needs to transform here. Kabuto can't escape from Gaara turning the entire battlefield into sand, burying Kabuto and crushing him.

I mean Kimimaro couldn't avoid this and he's much faster and on an entirely different planet from Kabuto taijutsu wise.



> His speed is almost on par with Pre-Skip Lee's base speed (Kabuto= 3.5 and Lee= 4)



Gaara was doing just fine handling Lee's speed. Kabuto doesn't have gates to resort to like Lee.



> so who says that Gaara can even catch him easily?



He caught Kimimaro. Shukaku certainly would have no trouble with it.



> And let's not forget that Kabuto could easily fool Gaara with a fake corpse, IF he needed that.



K. And then what?



> Wow. Flaming much? Listen, if you can't come up with good arguments, don't leave it out on me, buddy.



If your argument is that part 1 Kabuto can beat Shukaku then it's awful and barely worth responding to.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 17, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I have trained in the ways of debating, today I will win







> Kabuto's quote suggested no one in Konoha, here. He did not know if Kakashi was out on a mission to be honest as the Sound 4 saw Kakashi in the village and might have notified him.



And Kidomaru immediately suggested that they wait for him to leave because he was too high of a caliber, and they did not make a move until night fell after he had gone. So ...yeah...

Kabuto is also well aware of what condition Konoha is in because he is partially at fault, and as smart as he is we can count on him having reasoned that the top dogs of the village would already have their hands full at the time.



> My bad, Kabuto got bumped up to 3.5 in the later part of Part I. It still stands that a CS-boosted Kimimaro would masscre Kimimaro in CQC due to vastly superior speed, his Kekkai Genkai and his 5 in taijutsu.



What "vastly superior speed"? The only "speed" I saw was the speed sufficient to keep pace with a weighted Lee that Gaara said was underperforming compared to the exams (makes sense since he just got out of surgery and wasn't supposed to leave yet). I'm pretty sure Kabuto with the augmentation of the _Hyōrōgan_ can keep up with that, too.

I'm hesitant to believe Kimimaro would "massacre" roided up, super-healing Kabuto in close-quarters even if he won.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

so kimimaro wins ?


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## Vice (Nov 17, 2013)

Kimimaro would mow over Kabuto almost as easily as Shukaku could.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

lol,

gaara is not the shukaku, he can however transform into it,


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## Ersa (Nov 17, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> And Kidomaru immediately suggested that they wait for him to leave because he was too high of a caliber, and they did not make a move until night fell after he had gone. So ...yeah...


Kakashi would beat the Sound 4. However they had no knowledge Kimimaro was coming as evidenced by Tayuya's reaction to him.



> Kabuto is also well aware of what condition Konoha is in because he is partially at fault, and as smart as he is we can count on him having reasoned that the top dogs of the village would already have their hands full at the time.


But there is no proof of this. We'll agree to disagree here.

However note he calls Kimimaro, Orochimaru's greatest servant. Orochimaru considers Kabuto one of his servants as evidenced by their conversation on Itachi where Orochimaru makes it clear he "commands" Kabuto. That comment by Kabuto would imply Kimimaro is stronger than he is.




> What "vastly superior speed"? The only "speed" (in quotations because Lee attributed it to skill) I saw was the speed sufficient to keep pace with a weighted Lee that Gaara said was underperforming compared to the exams (makes sense since he just got out of surgery and wasn't supposed to leave yet). I'm pretty sure Kabuto with the augmentation of the _Hyōrōgan_ can keep up with that, too.
> 
> I'm hesitant to believe Kimimaro would "massacre" roided up, super-healing Kabuto in close-quarters even if he won.


Cursed Seal boosted Sasuke so much, he could blitz the Sound Ninja who wrecked 1st Gate Lee. Kimimaro has a 4.5 in speed, if he activates Cursed Seal level one; he will run circles around Kabuto. 

Lee was not weighted, why would he weaken himself before fighting real opponents ready to kill him? He casually reacted to a 1st Gate unweighted Lee not to mention decimated VOTE KN0 Naruto whose weaker Wave Arc counterpart blitzed Haku (with 4 in speed). His speed is very real.

_Hyōrōgan_ does not make up for a Cursed Seal boost nor does it make up for a big gap in taijutsu skill, speed and a Kekkai Genkai built for CQC. Disregarding circumstances, base Naruto was able to catch Kabuto. Can you imagine what happens if Kimimaro (who fodderized a strong KN0 Naruto) does? 

Senjutsu-infused bones to the head/neck. And medical ninjutsu is not going to heal that.


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## Rosencrantz (Nov 17, 2013)

She broke Susano. His bones do not have shit on that.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

^ this is rusty tsunade,


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## Rosencrantz (Nov 17, 2013)

Indeed. Didn't she lift Bunta's sword and stab Manda to the ground?


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## FlamingRain (Nov 17, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Kakashi would beat the Sound 4. However they had no knowledge Kimimaro was coming as evidenced by Tayuya's reaction to him.



They didn't need it. You just suggested they could have notified Kabuto, meaning that Kabuto's statement wouldn't include Kakashi as he would have been gone.



> But there is no proof of this. We'll agree to disagree here.



Maybe not, but I find it hard to imagine that someone like Kabuto didn't consider it.

We know the village's other missions took precedence over pursuing Sasuke as Konoha's power as a major nation had been greatly diminished, so I don't find it likely that Kabuto expected Tsunade to call the top Jōnin to drop everything and chase Sasuke.



> However note he calls Kimimaro, Orochimaru's greatest servant.



In the Viz he calls him no such thing. All he says is:

_*"I'm sorry ...It's just that ...Lord Orochimaru, you know. It doesn't matter who stands in his way ...there is nobody who could overcome Kimimaro."​*_
I don't see "greatest servant" anywhere on the page.



> Cursed Seal boosted Sasuke so much, he could blitz the Sound Ninja who wrecked 1st Gate Lee. Kimimaro has a 4.5 in speed, if he activates Cursed Seal level one; he will run circles around Kabuto.



The effects of the Curse Seal rather obviously vary between individuals. If the second level of the Cursed Seal actually _slows Kimimaro down_ why would we assume Kimimaro gets a speed boost from the first level of the _same mark_?



> Lee was not weighted, why would he weaken himself before fighting real opponents ready to kill him?



Because Lee simply habitually puts his weights on. His opponents were ready to kill during the exams too and he didn't take them off until he got the okay from Gai, and he's activated the lower gates before considering removing them. So as far as I'm concerned if we don't see him take them off he has them on.



> _Hyōrōgan_ does not make up for a Cursed Seal boost nor does it make up for a big gap in taijutsu skill, speed and a Kekkai Genkai built for CQC.



Why doesn't the _Hyōrōgan_ make up for the gap in speed that isn't big in the first place? What does Kimimaro's Cursed Seal afford him outside of more raw power that would make no difference against _Chakra Scalpels_ that can bypass your skin and bones to target organs and muscle tissues? Dissection blades alongside _In'yu Shōmetsu_ healing seem like they're built for close-quarters too imo; Kabuto can afford to get his hand stabbed to touch Kimi and get at his insides.

I'm also not seeing how you can just disregard circumstances when said circumstances are the only reason something comes to pass, either.

But I'm not saying Kabuto necessarily wins in a close-quarters brawl anyway since there are still the Kekkei Genkai and pure skill disadvantages, I simply questioned him being "massacred".


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2013)

Kimimaro's databook stats, and his parallel to pre-Hebi Sasuke, both suggest that he was heavily superior to Kabuto in terms of fighting ability. I doubt Kabuto could control this guy.

Also, I doubt Kabuto could beat the Sound 4. Just because the four weren't willing to engage Kakashi in the middle of enemy territory doesn't mean Hatake'd win in neutral circumstances either.

Plus databook gold:



> -Shikotsu no Mai
> 
> The reason Orochimaru desired Kimimaro is solely because of the "strongest" battle ability flowing in his blood. The bloodline limit, Shikotsumyaku. It implements a perfect attack and flawless defence, that is like the power of a god or a demon.





> -A defensive power that can endure the pressure of Gaara's "Sand Funeral". Truly an omnipotent offense and defense.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 17, 2013)

In regards to the Kimi vs. Part I Kabuto....... Kimi (even his sick ridden self) feat wise would use Kabuto as a damn pincushion.

In terms of Kimi surviving _rusty_ Tsunade's hits... do you _honestly_ think Orochimaru would want a body _less_ durable than his? Kimimaro straight up tanked a technique that turned people into cranberry juice..... and the proceeded to bulldoze his way out in CS1, and that was before he was buried under 200m of sand, had that recompressed on him and bulldozed his way out of that shit too in CS2

.....in a physical state worse than Itachi's at the time of his death


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## FlamingRain (Nov 18, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Except Kakashi was in the village



He went on a mission after he left and only got back from it well after the Sasuke retrieval mission was approaching its final stages, so ...no, no he wasn't in the village.



> Chase the last of the Uchiha? Tsunade wanted to send better people but had her hands tied. Powering Orochimaru up more by giving him the strongest body possible is not a good idea and she knows that. If she could have sent Kakashi she would have. It's possible Kabuto took this into account.



Possible maybe, but still not probable. It was a matter of what Tsunade _would_, not _could_, do in the situation that Kabuto and Orochimaru knew the village had been put into.

Tsunade had two Jōnin request that she send Jōnin after Sasuke and she went "Nnnnope, I need you guys for something else" because even if the Sharingan fell into Orochimaru's hands their top priority was discouraging war with the other nations.

So like maintain that Tsunade wasn't going to pick Kakashi of all the Jōnin to drop his missions and go after them; we even saw her argue with Kakashi over chasing Sasuke because she wanted him on _another mission_ once he got back in chapter 228.



> It could still very well imply Kimimaro > Kakashi. And Kabuto doesn't show this level of respect to people weaker then him. He only talks about this when addressing Orochimaru and Tobi.



I disagree.

Kabuto appreciates the abilities of others whether they are weaker than he is or not. Example: he praised each of the ninja that released his Genjutsu in the invasion, despite the fact that the vast majority were weaker than he was.

He only comes off as having a lack of respect for someone when he has more respect for someone else around them. Example: he acknowledged Naruto's power and potential in the Forest of Death, but then mocked Naruto's abilities when compared to Sasuke's (who at that point still weaker than he was) or those of the Sannin.



> The second state yes but the first state sped him up as he could actually react to Drunk Lee after using it.



Err ...he was _already_ reacting to drunken Lee _before_ using it. He noted that he couldn't _predict_ Lee's moves anymore because they had become so unorthodox, but he could still _react_ to them just fine.

In retaliation to this stylistic transgression Kimimaro then decided to get more _unpredictable_ himself by erupting boney spires enhanced by his Cursed Seal out of his upper body as he saw fit.



> Gai was there watching him for the battles; Neji and Tenten generally had his back in the FoD. There's no reason to assume he'd deliberately slow himself down with such high stakes. The stakes were not as high in the Chunin Exams plus he was healthier then.
> 
> Lee has youth but he isn't dumb. He's fighting real opponents, he's not 100% and he rushes and brings the wrong medicine. Why would he decide to spend more time grabbing his heavy weights and strapping them on?



None of those people were there when he went to help Sakura, and his life was, alongside the lives of his peers, at risk in _both_ scenarios. Stakes don't get much higher, brah.

More than once Lee has resorted to the self-damaging (even if not extremely) lower leveled Gates before removing his weights. Why would he do that? Because it's habitual for him to wear them, and he was fighting "real opponents" in the exams. It's called being consistent, not dumb; it's not far from being the equivalent to one of those "until I say stop" workouts. The medicine was a new thing that was sitting next to a similar looking bottle, and thus is far more understandable to confuse. There is nothing Lee could have confused with those weights that I can think of.



> Because _Hyōrōgan_ was more for his blood loss as well as slightly boosting him; I think you over exaggerate the effects it has on Kabuto. Shizune didn't like that he was using them but neither implied it changed the fight between Tsunade and Kabuto.



You're confusing the _Hyōrōgan_ with the _Zōketsugan_; they're different sets of pills with different effects, and Kabuto took both kinds. The former is packed with incredibly powerful stimulants that augment physical performance and stamina, having nothing to do with blood loss. The latter is a blood stopping pill that Kabuto took after slitting his wrist like an emo to exploit Tsunade's hemophobia.



> I think his Kekkai Genkai not letting Kabuto touch him with his scalpel would indeed stop Kabuto slicing him up.



Kabuto can afford to get himself hurt touching Kimimaro, though, because he will heal.



> If Base Naruto can with some luck catch Kabuto, a KN0 Naruto can do it easier, Kimimaro does it even easier then him and if Kabuto gets caught by Kimimaro...well it's not pretty.



Kimimaro gets his hand stabbed after getting beaten up even easier than Naruto did .....okay then, no that won't be pretty.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Indeed. Didn't she lift Bunta's sword and stab Manda to the ground?



Yeah. 

Rusty Tsunade's initial heel drop was more destructive than Ei's Liger Bomber, and it was stated that no one has ever survived that move before Sasuke.  Which he only lived through because of Susano, which got pieces broken off of it, and even that didn't keep him from getting really messed up by it.  

So saying that Rusty Tsunade could still break Susano, albeit, at least the ribcage version, isn't wrong.  

Though for breaking the better versions like Madaras, you have to ask yourself if you think Tsunade got stronger when she got back into shape, or if she was always that strong to begin with.  Usually people just assume she was strong enough to smash whatever and we just hadn't seen her hit them yet, but that might not be the case.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 18, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Kakashi would beat the Sound 4. However they had no knowledge Kimimaro was coming as evidenced by Tayuya's reaction to him.
> 
> 
> But there is no proof of this. We'll agree to disagree here.
> ...



Kabuto couldn't leave Oto because he was Orochimaru's doctor, and Orochimaru was dying.  If he left, there wouldn't be anyone to mix up and administer the drugs that were staving off the body transfer long enough for Sasuke to get there.  In the event that Sasuke didn't arrive in time, Kabuto was the one who orchestrated the death tournament to choose another body.  These are things Kimi could not do, hence why he was the only one of the two that could be sent.  Medical skill set aside, Kabuto was the only one who could be trusted around dying Orochimaru, because as Tayuya said and Suigetsu later reaffirmed, legions of Oto nin hated Orochimaru, and everyone was looking for a chance to kill him.  Sasuke was just the only one to get a chance.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 18, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Rusty Tsunade's initial heel drop was more destructive than Ei's Liger Bomber, and it was stated that no one has ever survived that move before Sasuke.  Which he only lived through because of Susano, which got pieces broken off of it, and even that didn't keep him from getting really messed up by it.
> 
> ...



I'd say she simply got back in shape as she had to train Sakura for 2+ years, there is a reason even Raikage said she had gotten sloppy after the years even against Madara


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## Ersa (Nov 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> He went on a mission after he left and only got back from it well after the Sasuke retrieval mission was approaching its final stages, so ...no, no he wasn't in the village.


I doubt the Sound 4 knew that however. They decided to wait until night because they needed Kakashi gone.



> Possible maybe, but still not probable. It was a matter of what Tsunade _would_, not _could_, do in the situation that Kabuto and Orochimaru knew the village had been put into.


They knew the village was damaged but very well alive; they might have considered the possibility that another attack was coming and left some decently strong shinobi as defense.



> Tsunade had two Jōnin request that she send Jōnin after Sasuke and she went "Nnnnope, I need you guys for something else" because even if the Sharingan fell into Orochimaru's hands their top priority was discouraging war with the other nations.
> 
> So like maintain that Tsunade wasn't going to pick Kakashi of all the Jōnin to drop his missions and go after them; we even saw her argue with Kakashi over chasing Sasuke because she wanted him on _another mission_ once he got back in chapter 228.


Partly that was due to plot, I know it's a poor excuse for a debate but sending Kakashi in would render every enemy but Kimimaro moot and ensure Sasuke gets his ass kicked and brought back to the village. You could say Tsunade took a very risky gamble by putting her priority on defenses and lost. I'll concede this point but you know it's as much PIS as it is Tsunade choosing. Look how much it ended up biting them by letting Sasuke go.



> I disagree.
> 
> Kabuto appreciates the abilities of others whether they are weaker than he is or not. Example: he praised each of the ninja that released his Genjutsu in the invasion, despite the fact that the vast majority were weaker than he was.
> 
> He only comes off as having a lack of respect for someone when he has more respect for someone else around them. Example: he acknowledged Naruto's power and potential in the Forest of Death, but then mocked Naruto's abilities when compared to Sasuke's (who at that point still weaker than he was) or those of the Sannin.


I agree somewhat but it's very high praise from Kabuto and brings up the question of whether Kimimaro is stronger than he is and I say there's a very good possibility he is. 



> Err ...he was _already_ reacting to drunken Lee _before_ using it. He noted that he couldn't _predict_ Lee's moves anymore because they had become so unorthodox, but he could still _react_ to them just fine.
> 
> In retaliation to this stylistic transgression Kimimaro then decided to get more _unpredictable_ himself by erupting boney spires enhanced by his Cursed Seal out of his upper body as he saw fit.


He couldn't predict his moves well however; he could react but just not as well as he wanted. The Curse Seal I feel augmented his reflexes to the point where he could easily react and erupt his bones as evidenced by his relatively smug look.



> None of those people were there when he went to help Sakura, and his life was, alongside the lives of his peers, at risk in _both_ scenarios. Stakes don't get much higher, brah.
> 
> More than once Lee has resorted to the self-damaging (even if not extremely) lower leveled Gates before removing his weights. Why would he do that? Because it's habitual for him to wear them, and he was fighting "real opponents" in the exams. It's called being consistent, not dumb; it's not far from being the equivalent to one of those "until I say stop" workouts. The medicine was a new thing that was sitting next to a similar looking bottle, and thus is far more understandable to confuse. There is nothing Lee could have confused with those weights that I can think of.


Yes he jumped in with his weights because there was no time to take off his weights. This case is different as he had to get dressed, decide on what to wear and leave. In such a rush he got the wrong medicine, I don't see how someone that hurried would have time to sit down and slug on some massive weights.

Lee would've seen the weights and maybe pondered, "Man I'm not really 100%, I'm kinda in a rush, should I weaken himself and lose valuable time while Sasuke gets away? Hmmm..YES!"



> You're confusing the _Hyōrōgan_ with the _Zōketsugan_; they're different sets of pills with different effects, and Kabuto took both kinds. The former is packed with incredibly powerful stimulants that augment physical performance and stamina, having nothing to do with blood loss. The latter is a blood stopping pill that Kabuto took after slitting his wrist like an emo to exploit Tsunade's hemophobia.


Conceded, but the boost is not what you suggest I feel. It'll close the gap but the taijutsu and speed deficient is significant, Kekkai Genkai and Juin to boot. Juin Kimimaro is much faster than a rusty, alcoholic Tsunade.



> Kabuto can afford to get himself hurt touching Kimimaro, though, because he will heal.


If Kimimaro in his CS1 state hurts Kabuto, it won't be anything that his medical ninjutsu can fix. He smashes Kabuto with some of his Kekkai Genkai attacks, Kabuto isn't going to be able to get away. As soon as Kimimaro tags Kabuto once, he goes CS2 for extra power and destroys him completely.



> Kimimaro gets his hand stabbed after getting beaten up even easier than Naruto did .....okay then, no that won't be pretty.


I'm saying if Kimimaro catches Kabuto, the nerd is getting ripped to shreds via senjutsu bones. And given the former can school a much stronger version of the guy who caught (with some luck/CIS) Kabuto I think it's very likely.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2013)

Tsunade one-shots him. Or after her first hit Kimi gets too messed up to defend against her second one. 

Kimi-wank needs to stop. Kabuto was numerous time shown reassuring Orochimaru with dubious statements. Every time Oro told him to shut it. "Nobody can stop Kimimaro" - right. It was a shitty hype for an Arc boss. Kishi has used it every time. Kakuzu's "I can't kill him" for Hidan. Pain's "Never lost a battle". It's a cheap tool for creating suspense via overblown hype. 

Kimimaro was an obstacle for Part 1 Rookies and P1 Gaara. Kishi used his illness for him to look good after losing. Healthy Kimimaro high diffs P1 Gaara who isn't using Biju forms. That's his level. And even Rusty Tsunade when she got her shit together is comparable to _Current_ Gaara. I like to use feats over hype myself, especially when matchups matter. But Tsunade is simply way above Kimi and his fighting style+abilities are ill-suited to fight her.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2013)

Tsunade couldn't one-shot Orochimaru, so she's not one-shotting the guy Orochimaru envied for being able to resist any physical attack. That just seems like common sense, doesn't it?

She's not hitting him easily either given his feats against the KN0 army and how he's superior to part II Tsunade in the databook, let alone the rusty Tsunade that was trolled someone tiers less reflexive and physically skilled than Kimimaro.​


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## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2013)

You have a link with Orochimaru's specifically stating that? That he wanted Kimimaro's body solely for his defensive capabilities? And not for overall bloodline power?


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2013)

alex payne said:


> You have a link with Orochimaru's specifically stating that? That he wanted Kimimaro's body solely for his defensive capabilities? And not for overall bloodline power?



The first thing out of his mouth when envying Kimimaro's bloodline was its defensive capability. link. It's not hard to see which aspect he was more impressed with. The spear point? Or the physical invulnerability? Hmm.

On the other hand, I'd love to see feats from part one Tsunade that suggest she can tag Kimimaro or dodge the bone bullets he can gleefully send through her. Because I think Kimimaro's more agile than Kabuto while throwing them.


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## Rocky (Nov 18, 2013)

alex payne said:


> You have a link with Orochimaru's specifically stating that? That he wanted Kimimaro's body solely for his defensive capabilities? And not for overall bloodline power?




He wanted Kimimaro's body for his bloodline abilities which include those insane defensive capabilities.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 18, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Tsunade one-shots him. Or after her first hit Kimi gets too messed up to defend against her second one.



Rusty Tsunade could not one shot a arm sealed Orochimaru eating her punches to he face, yet Kimimaro is supposed to be oneshotted when he displayed higher durability?

I.e have his skin/muscle peeled of his body to the bone layer, on top of a completely different body structure than normal people?



alex payne said:


> Kimi-wank needs to stop. Kabuto was numerous time shown reassuring Orochimaru with dubious statements. Every time Oro told him to shut it. "Nobody can stop Kimimaro" - right. It was a shitty hype for an Arc boss. Kishi has used it every time. Kakuzu's "I can't kill him" for Hidan. Pain's "Never lost a battle". It's a cheap tool for creating suspense via overblown hype.



Feat wise at the time...... ugh no one could stop Kimimaro, just like feat wise at the time no one could have beat Pain without his gimping

Jugo stated Kimimaro was comparable to Hebi-Sasuke, who is VERY much Tsunade level, i'd don'ts see why it's a stretch to think he could give a rusty version of herself a good run for her money



alex payne said:


> Kimimaro was an obstacle for Part 1 Rookies and P1 Gaara. Kishi used his illness for him to look good after losing. Healthy Kimimaro high diffs P1 Gaara who isn't using Biju forms. That's his level. And even Rusty Tsunade when she got her shit together is comparable to _Current_ Gaara. I like to use feats over hype myself, especially when matchups matter. But Tsunade is simply way above Kimi and his fighting style+abilities are ill-suited to fight her.



Healthy Kimimaro......? Kimimaro was literally in the worst physical condition any one has been in during a fight in the entire manga? I don't recall any character fighting 3 people back to back to back after literally getting out of bed on will power alone after laying in a hospital bed with towels over your with I.V. tubes running into his body for weeks

Healthy Kimimaro is hyped at Hebi-Sasuke level, thats casual low diffing Gaara via a blitz 

Believe me I'm all for the feats > hype, but feat wise... Tsunade isn't oneshotting a guy that on his deathbed was flattened under 200 meters of sand and broke free, when Kage level opponents need were restrained by said sand. And seeing Part II sand doesn't way any more than Part I sand... i'd think the feat is VERY impressive even for being part I


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## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2013)

So he wanted it for the neat bloodline package, just as I said. Orochimaru's defense is regen+True From that isn't reliant on the actual body. Kimimaro's defense grants the body high-level physical defense. There is nothing that suggest that Kimi's Bone Defenses are superior to White Snake Regen in terms of defense. They do things differently. But to say that Kimi's defense is superior to Orochimaru's own because he wanted it... is simply wrong. Orochimaru's various regeneration tech and body modifications >> Bones. But those abilities makes a powerful combination when used together.

2Joakim3: Kimimaro was said to have comparable level of CS2 mastery to Sasuke. Not overall level. By overall level he was compared to _Jugo_ because he was the only one who could stop his rampages. So no, his hype isn't overly spectacular.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2013)

Kimimaro has  as well. But I think Orochimaru saying that Kimimaro's bones can resist any physical attack seals the deal on "Tsunade one-shotting," don't you think?

I think it's much more likely that Tsunade's punch would merely push Kimimaro back. His bones might crack, but they regenerate easily, as does his flesh. He can take hits from her, even if he's sent flying.

His ability to fearlessly fight Jūgo and, to a lesser extent Jirōbō, should further indicate how he can potentially take hits from people that punch enormous craters in the earth.

Sure, you can just say Jirōbō could never land a hit, even with S4 support?, and I guess that's an adequate counter, but a berserking Jūgo is a hell of a lot faster and more unpredictable.​


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## Joakim3 (Nov 18, 2013)

alex payne said:


> So he wanted it for the neat bloodline package, just as I said. Orochimaru's defense is regen+True From that isn't reliant on the actual body. Kimimaro's defense grants the body high-level physical defense. There is nothing that suggest that Kimi's Bone Defenses are superior to White Snake Regen in terms of defense. They do things differently. But to say that Kimi's defense is superior to Orochimaru's own because he wanted it... is simply wrong. Orochimaru's various regeneration tech and body modifications >> Bones. But those abilities makes a powerful combination when used together.



Feats suggest Kimi's bones are more durable.... seeing Oro was turned into meat chunks by ration blades and Kimi foddered them in base. The fact Itachi had resort to V2.5 _Sasuno'o_ do deal with his bones (which weren't even the same scale as his Part I feat) shows it's not your average bloodline

Yes your right in that that's comparing apple to oranges. But we have zero feats to directly compare said defensives against the same type of attack. We simply have to weight each defenses "best" feat in relation to Tsunade's attack and whoever has the most convincing argument "wins"

It's Oro tanking rusty tsunade punches with his face vs. Kimi shrugging off having his skin peeled off and crushed by 600ft of chakra infused pressurized sand that can juice people


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## Ersa (Nov 18, 2013)

It'd be wanking Kimimaro if he didn't get any Part II feats/hype but he did.

Stacking his reasonably impressive Part I feats/hype running on sheer willpower and dying and his Part II feats (dodging FRS, being one of the last Edo Tensei standing, subduing CS2 Juugo) and his added hype of being somewhere near Hebi Sasuke's level suggests that Kimimaro is definitely at least low Kage level.

He's not fodder to rusty Tsunade at all; hell he's not fodder to current Tsunade either (just he couldn't exactly win ).


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2013)

It'd be wanking if I said he casually tanked FRS with bone armor. 

It's possible. Probable? Maybe. Certain? Does anybody believe it's _certain?_

Well, there you have it.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 18, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Stacking his reasonably impressive Part I feats/hype running on sheer willpower and dying and his Part II feats (dodging FRS, being one of the last Edo Tensei standing, subduing CS2 Juugo) and his added hype of being somewhere near Hebi Sasuke's level suggests that Kimimaro is definitely at least low Kage level.


Chiyo was the reason Kimi survived that long 
She was the one to counter FRS too


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## Veracity (Nov 18, 2013)

Lol Kimi did not dodge shit. Can I get some proof, or was that off paneled ? Lol someone prove their shit.


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## Bonly (Nov 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lol Kimi did not dodge shit. Can I get some proof, or was that off paneled ? Lol someone prove their shit.



So you think he tanked it?


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## Ersa (Nov 18, 2013)

Naruto is about to throw a FRS at him on-panel, we cut out of the fight and return to the fight later.
- Kimimaro is unharmed
- There are sealed Edo Tensei near him. 

Conclusion; He dodged the FRS, if he didn't dodge it then he would've been sealed like his poor companions in their caskets. But you know if he can tank FRS then it's fine by me too; because FRS is certainly stronger than anything Tsunade can dish out


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

there's only three conclusions you can draw:

1) Dodged
2) Tanked
3) No sealers were around

To me, 'dodged' seems to be the most likely conclusion.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 18, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I doubt the Sound 4 knew that however. They decided to wait until night because they needed Kakashi gone.



Yes they needed him gone as in _out of the village gone_, so that he wouldn't randomly happen to come back.

They wouldn't wait until nighttime otherwise because Kakashi left the vicinity, leaving Sasuke right in front of them, way back when it was still daytime.



> They knew the village was damaged but very well alive; they might have considered the possibility that another attack was coming and left some decently strong shinobi as defense.



According to Kisame it was "barely" alive.

And that defense was the newly inaugurated Hokage (_the_ strongest ninja at the time), who wouldn't leave the village; everyone else was busy making sure not to turn down missions.

Orochimaru especially, as a legendary veteran ninja and former Hokage candidate, would know how important the village's perception to the rest of the world was, and surely Kabuto wasn't about to lie to a pissed off Orochimaru.



> Partly that was due to plot, I know it's a poor excuse for a debate but sending Kakashi in would render every enemy but Kimimaro moot and ensure Sasuke gets his ass kicked and brought back to the village. You could say Tsunade took a very risky gamble by putting her priority on defenses and lost. I'll concede this point but you know it's as much PIS as it is Tsunade choosing. Look how much it ended up biting them by letting Sasuke go.



I'm not on board with the "that was due to plot" retort. Since obviously every narrative point is motivated by plot I don't think it should be used as an excuse as long as one can make logical sense out of it in some way, which we _can_ do here.

Still, one could just as easily claim that it was "plot" that protected Kimimaro from being rendered moot by Kakashi right alongside the Sound 4.

Tsunade prioritizing defense was no gamble, it was simply more important as disregarding it to go after Sasuke would signal to the remaining nations that Konoha was weak and that would have been very nasty for the village. Sending the rookies after Sasuke was the only actual risk, and that was because she didn't have a choice in the matter. So ...hardly a "gamble".



> He couldn't predict his moves well however; he could react but just not as well as he wanted. The Curse Seal I feel augmented his reflexes to the point where he could easily react and erupt his bones as evidenced by his relatively smug look.



He wasn't reacting any quicker once he activated the Cursed Seal, only reacting _differently_ by erupting unpredictable boney spires instead of using a boney sword; he was getting his actual strikes parried just like he had before activating the Cursed Seal. So I'm confident that it served to fortify his bones instead of increasing his speed and reflexes.



> Yes he jumped in with his weights because there was no time to take off his weights. This case is different as he had to get dressed, decide on what to wear and leave. In such a rush he got the wrong medicine, I don't see how someone that hurried would have time to sit down and slug on some massive weights.



"Get dressed" and "decide on what to wear" are the same thing I believe. Typical attire is typical attire and the weights only take a second to put on like anything else, heavy or not.

I'm pretty sure he had ample time to slip off those weights while he was moving through treetops with a squirrel. Even if he did stop for the couple seconds it would take to remove them the speed increase should have made up for it.

I'm also not thinking that grabbing the sake suggests he was in some enormous rush so much as he legitimately got the bottles mixed up, since he wasn't in a rush against Kimimaro (he had gotten to his destination and Kimi was allowing him to take his medicine) and still didn't notice that it was sake. The bottles are identical in appearance, and thus easily confused.



> Conceded, but the boost is not what you suggest I feel.





FlamingRain said:


> Why doesn't the _Hyōrōgan_ make up for the gap?





You said:


> It'll close the gap



???



Strategoob said:


> Tsunade couldn't one-shot Orochimaru, so she's not one-shotting the guy Orochimaru envied for being able to resist any physical attack. That just seems like common sense, doesn't it?​



Not really, no.

I find it somewhat misleading to claim that Tsunade "couldn't one-shot" Orochimaru while failing to acknowledge that her strike _*1.)*_ momentarily knocked him unconscious, and _*2.)*_ was the decisive blow that subsequently made Orochimaru decide to run home, _ending the fight_.

Orochimaru's face may not be as _hard_ as Kimimaro's bones but I'd say it _does_ surpass the Kaguya's body in overall resistance to impactful blunt force trauma because of the extremely advanced elasticity of _Nan no Kaizō_ (which _was_ active because had it not been his head would have flown right off considering the position it was in relative to his shoulders, and of course Orochimaru's tongue wouldn't be doing what it was).

Think of it this way: the impact of a hammer will do better against a diamond than a mound of rubber, because the latter can shift to accommodate the momentum of the blow before resuming its shape afterwards while the former cannot do anything but break into pieces in spite of being much harder comparatively.

A hyperbolic statement that was falsified when he shattered his _Tessenka no Mai: Hana_ (which is maximum-degree  ) upon _impacting_ Gaara's_ Saikō Zettai Bōgyo: Shukaku no Tate_ doesn't suggest he can withstand Tsunade's strike.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I find it somewhat misleading to claim that Tsunade "couldn't one-shot" Orochimaru while failing to acknowledge that her strike _*1.)*_ momentarily knocked him unconscious



Just because he didn't get up immediately, it doesn't mean he was out cold. He was down for a second or two. Boxers go down for longer and people don't say they were unconscious.​


FlamingRain said:


> and _*2.)*_ was the decisive blow that subsequently made Orochimaru decide to run home, _ending the fight_.



Armless Orochimaru realizing he was overwhelmed in a 6 vs 2 fight doesn't mean that Tsunade's punch alone scared him away. He didn't seem wounded at all upon making his exit.​


FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru's face may not be as _hard_ as Kimimaro's bones but I'd say it _does_ surpass the Kaguya's body in overall resistance to impactful blunt force trauma because of the extremely advanced elasticity of _Nan no Kaizō_ (which _was_ active because had it not been his head would have flown right off considering the position it was in relative to his shoulders, and of course Orochimaru's tongue wouldn't be doing what it was).



Really? His stretchy neck protected him from Tsunade's super-duper vaporazation punches more than a defensive kekkei genkai would? Maybe Orochimaru should have used  as a host instead.​


FlamingRain said:


> A hyperbolic statement that was falsified when he shattered his _Tessenka no Mai: Hana_ (which is maximum-degree  ) upon _impacting_ Gaara's_ Saikō Zettai Bōgyo: Shukaku no Tate_ doesn't suggest he can withstand Tsunade's strike.



It was an _offensive_ technique. A spearpoint, as you ought to know, is not a shape that's ideal for absorbing of force (if it can't pierce.) That's not the same thing as an armor technique being broken.​


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## Ersa (Nov 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes they needed him gone as in _out of the village gone_, so that he wouldn't randomly happen to come back.
> 
> They wouldn't wait until nighttime otherwise because Kakashi left the vicinity, leaving Sasuke right in front of them, way back when it was still daytime.


They waited til nighttime because there is little to no chance of anyone interrupting.

blends into

They waited til he was gone not til he was out of the village. Tayuya implies the S4 could have taken him. I don't buy that but they could definitely give Kakashi a good fight in their CS2 states. And Kimimaro is the guy who wiped the floor with them at a fraction of his full power.


> According to Kisame it was "barely" alive.
> 
> And that defense was the newly inaugurated Hokage (_the_ strongest ninja at the time), who wouldn't leave the village; everyone else was busy making sure not to turn down missions.
> 
> Orochimaru especially, as a legendary veteran ninja and former Hokage candidate, would know how important the village's perception to the rest of the world was, and surely Kabuto wasn't about to lie to a pissed off Orochimaru.


Yet they still had Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai, Gai in the village. Shinobi who actually matter. Dead =/= Undefended. Orochimaru could have also guessed that there still might be capable shinobi in the village.



> I'm not on board with the "that was due to plot" retort. Since obviously every narrative point is motivated by plot I don't think it should be used as an excuse as long as one can make logical sense out of it in some way, which we can do here.
> 
> Still, one could just as easily claim that it was "plot" that protected Kimimaro from being rendered moot by Kakashi right alongside the Sound 4.


Which is why I said it was poor but it really is the reason. We needed a retrieval arc, if Kakashi had gone then Sasuke would've come back. Kishimoto wanted him gone; the defenses was an excuse for him to do this. Except even sick Kimimaro has the hype and feats to suggest he can tie and defeat Kakashi.



> Tsunade prioritizing defense was no gamble, it was simply more important as disregarding it to go after Sasuke would signal to the remaining nations that Konoha was weak and that would have been very nasty for the village. Sending the rookies after Sasuke was the only actual risk, and that was because she didn't have a choice in the matter. So ...hardly a "gamble".


If Tsunade had known that two of her Genin would have almost died, two more were badly wounded and that they would not have retrieved a member of the strongest clan being delivered to Konoha greatest (at the time) enemy then I think she would have gone herself because that's IC for her. She cares a lot about the Rookies, it's why she agreed to risk Lee's life for his dream. As it stands she trusted Naruto and Shikamaru, especially the former because he has proven her wrong multiple times and because of her position.  



> He wasn't reacting any quicker once he activated the Cursed Seal, only reacting _differently_ by erupting unpredictable boney spires instead of using a boney sword; he was getting his actual strikes parried just like he had before activating the Cursed Seal. So I'm confident that it served to fortify his bones instead of increasing his speed and reflexes.


Differently is the key word, he could react differently because his reflexes improved. His bones were more than capable of cutting KN0 Naruto who is more durable then Lee.



> "Get dressed" and "decide on what to wear" are the same thing I believe. Typical attire is typical attire and the weights only take a second to put on like anything else, heavy or not.


Actually they took a few panels when Lee took them off. 



> I'm pretty sure he had ample time to slip off those weights while he was moving through treetops with a squirrel. Even if he did stop for the couple seconds it would take to remove them the speed increase should have made up for it.


He wasn't thinking about that then though, he was only thinking about Sakura. This time, he actually would have had to take just a bit of time (very briefly) to look at his weights and go "yeah or nah".



> I'm also not thinking that grabbing the sake suggests he was in some enormous rush so much as he legitimately got the bottles mixed up, since he wasn't in a rush against Kimimaro (he had gotten to his destination and Kimi was allowing him to take his medicine) and still didn't notice that it was sake. The bottles are identical in appearance, and thus easily confused.


It doesn't take that long to read a label and Tsunade commented on his quick escape.



> ???


It'll help close the gap but there is still a fair gap there. As I've said in base Kimimaro is quite a bit faster and his taijutsu is far superior, he has cursed seal to augment speed and reflexes and a Kekkai Genkai to boot. He is literally a faster Tsunade, with less power (but similar damage output due to his senjutsu augmented Kekkai Genkai) and a CQC Kekkai Genkai. 

If the pills can close a 1.5 Taijutsu/1.0 Speed gap plus make up for a Kekkai Genkai plus a cursed seal boost why does no one ever take them? Cause that's the boost Kabuto needs to contend in CQC with Kimimaro. Why doesn't Tsunade use them now and become much faster? Because they aren't that great of a boost.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 18, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Naruto is about to throw a FRS at him on-panel, we cut out of the fight and return to the fight later.
> - Kimimaro is unharmed
> - There are sealed Edo Tensei near him.
> 
> Conclusion; He dodged the FRS,* if he didn't dodge it then he would've been sealed like his poor companions in their caskets.*



This sounds like a rather hasty assumption to make; it's completely possible for the sealers to simply not have made it in time, to seal Kimimaro. Chiyo could have prevented his defeat with her controlled Samurai - perhaps by slicing apart the sealing scrolls, as the Third Raikage did.

In all honesty, I'd even say it's a tad unlikely for Kimimaro to have evaded that Rasenshuriken considering one thrown by another Nine-Tails Chakra Mode clone was dodged by the Third Raikage, who was accordingly considered 'incredibly fast' just for that feat. On the other hand, that same Kimimaro's head-on charge was stopped... by a freakin' *Samurai *. Which, if I'd remind you, a non-serious Sasuke was casually slaughtering in hordes.


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## Bonly (Nov 18, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> This sounds like a rather hasty assumption to make; it's completely possible for the sealers to simply not have made it in time, to seal Kimimaro. Chiyo could have prevented his defeat with her controlled Samurai - perhaps by slicing apart the sealing scrolls, as the Third Raikage did.
> 
> In all honesty, I'd even say it's a tad unlikely for Kimimaro to have evaded that Rasenshuriken considering one thrown by another Nine-Tails Chakra Mode clone was dodged by the Third Raikage, who was accordingly considered 'incredibly fast' just for that feat. On the other hand, that same Kimimaro's head-on charge was stopped... by a freakin' *Samurai *. Which, if I'd remind you, a non-serious Sasuke was casually slaughtering in hordes.



Chiyo was standing right next to Kimi and then we see FRS spear the next page. For one to think Chiyo saved Kimi in said fashion they would have to be under the impression that Chiyo managed to outright dodge the FRS fully. So would you think it's more likely that Chiyo managed to outright dodge it while Kimi couldn't and she proceed to stop the sealing ninja's on standby instead of Kimi being able to outright dodge it as well?


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> the next page. For one to think Chiyo saved Kimi in said fashion* they would have to be under the impression* that Chiyo managed to outright dodge the FRS fully. So would you think it's more likely that Chiyo managed to outright dodge it while Kimi couldn't and she proceed to stop the sealing ninja's on standby instead of Kimi being able to outright dodge it as well?



No, one wouldn't. One thing I have to remind you, we have zero clue what happened after Chiyo finished talking about Naruto's apparent growth in physicality.

We also have zero clue when Naruto even threw his Rasenshuriken. Because for all we know, Chiyo could have launched a group of controlled Samurai at Naruto, who was in turn forced to destroy them; not affecting the puppeteer herself. Or Kimimaro could have utilized Dance of the Seedling Fern, forcing Naruto to destroy the emerging bones while the Macabre Bone Pulse user himself was untouched.

Point is, we've zero idea what transpired. So to claim they dodged it, is unfounded and baseless. Every other possibility is just as likely.


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## Ersa (Nov 18, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> No, one wouldn't. One thing I have to remind you, we have zero clue what happened after Chiyo finished talking about Naruto's apparent growth in physicality.
> 
> We also have zero clue when Naruto even threw his Rasenshuriken. Because for all we know, Chiyo could have launched a group of controlled Samurai at Naruto, who was in turn forced to destroy them; not affecting the puppeteer herself. Or Kimimaro could have utilized Dance of the Seedling Fern, forcing Naruto to destroy the emerging bones while the Macabre Bone Pulse user himself was untouched.
> 
> Point is, we've zero idea what transpired. So to claim they dodged it, is unfounded and baseless. Every other possibility is just as likely.


It's the panel after where it explodes; Naruto tells them he's going to attack and we see the FRS explosion right after. I really doubt they started a counter-attack before KCM Naruto could throw a FRS. Sawabi No Mai takes more time then it does for Naruto to throw a FRS.

I don't see why Kimimaro can't dodge it. Cloaked Lee moved at the same speed as FRS; Kimimaro packs the same speed in the DB and has a cursed seal (which is the same as KN0). It's possible Chiyo got caught and Kimimaro stopped her getting sealed.


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## Bonly (Nov 18, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> No, one wouldn't.



Yes, one would. Your post is just trying to grasp at some straws, it's quite obvious what happened and very very short time that passed between to go from one page to the next there. If you wish not to see it and have some wishful thinking otherwise then that's up to you, we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 18, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> It's the panel after where it explodes; *Naruto tells them he's going to attack *and we see the FRS explosion right after.



No, we don't, that panel could have just as easily been Naruto yelling at Black Zetsu.



> I don't see why Kimimaro can't dodge it. Cloaked Lee moved at the same speed as FRS; Kimimaro packs the same speed in the DB and has a cursed seal (which is the same as *KN0*). It's possible Chiyo got caught and Kimimaro stopped her getting sealed.



It was a one-tailed cloak.

Furthermore, stop being purposefully disingenuous; Cloaked Lee was fast enough to blitz *Madara* of all people, if you seriously believe a cursed seal enhances Kimimaro by such a degree, I have nothing to say to you.

Last but not least, at one point you claim Kimimaro must have not had enough time to use any technique before Naruto threw his Rasenshuriken, the very next moment you're suggesting the former used his cursed seal to evade it, when we've seen that a cursed seal takes quite a bit of hefty time to form in itself.

Stop contradicting yourself.



> Yes, one would. Your post is just trying to grasp at some straws, it's quite obvious what happened and *very very short time* that passed between to go from one page to the next there. If you wish not to see it and have some wishful thinking otherwise then that's up to you, we'll have to agree to disagree.



'wishful thinking' 'grasping as straws'

Is this what you say to everyone you can't refute? I'm stating the obvious: we know nothing that happened. Unless you show me Chiyo/Kimimaro actively dodging the projectile, that's the way it's going to stay, bubs.

Furthermore, you can't prove it was a 'very very short time' either, considering we never see the point in time Naruto actually throws his Rasenshuriken at the duo.

Concession accepted.


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## Veracity (Nov 18, 2013)

I honestly don't find it even close to plausible for Kimi to dodge FRS. His feats aren't even close for this.

It's more logical for; 

-  Chiyo to have helped him out( with the manga stating she's Kage level)
-  The sealing team to just fuck up.
-  Or Kishi literally just have made a mistake and my thought it out clearly. He does that all the damn time( Hashirama statement about Tsunade: Minato's face on mountain)

Especially considering how relatively unimportant that squad was


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## bleakwinter (Nov 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I honestly don't find it even close to plausible for Kimi to dodge FRS. His feats aren't even close for this.
> 
> It's more logical for;
> 
> ...



Why wouldn't it be plausible for a taijutsu specialist like Kimimaro to have dodged Rasenshuriken? Deva Path dodged it at point blank range (1). Every path except animal realm was also able to dodge it (2), albeit with a bit more distance required for them to do so.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 19, 2013)

"Databooks are shit" is shit reasoning. The author gave concrete values to characters that are otherwise difficult to compare to one another because they don't all have common variables.

And given that Hizashi died a decade earlier, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that Hiashi has surpassed him since then, although I don't remember it ever being said they were equals.

In fact, Hizashi not being in the main house means he wasn't privilege to certain bloodline secrets, and would therefore be weaker. A part of Neji's genius is that he was self-taught.​


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## asstonine (Nov 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> "Databooks are shit" is shit reasoning. The author gave concrete values to characters that are otherwise difficult to compare to one another because they don't all have common variables.
> 
> And given that Hizashi died a decade earlier, it's perfectly reasonable to believe that Hiashi has surpassed him since then, although I don't remember it ever being said they were equals.
> 
> In fact, Hizashi not being in the main house means he wasn't privilege to certain bloodline secrets, and would therefore be weaker. A part of Neji's genius is that he was self-taught.​



Databooks are shit.  Fact kiddo.



> A part of his genius is that he was self taught...


Grats on writing the dumbest comment I have seen all day.

He is a genius, because he built the techniques from scratch, not because he was self taught.  

It isn't the slightest bit reasonable to suggest that.
Sorry, just more fanficition BS!  It should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about this series.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 19, 2013)

asstonine said:


> Grats on writing the dumbest comment I have seen all day.
> 
> He is a genius, because he built the techniques from scratch, not because he was self taught.



 **


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## Baroxio (Nov 19, 2013)

asstonine said:


> This!
> 
> Tsunade was at best doing on par with Kabuto at the time, and a healthy Kimi is much stronger than Kabuto.   A healthy kimi could put up a decent fight to current Tsunade!
> 
> ...


Hiashi and Hizashi probably did have identical abilities...when Hizashi was still alive, of course.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 19, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Hiashi and Hizashi probably did have identical abilities...when Hizashi was still alive, of course.



I don't think so. Remember how surprised Hiashi was when Neji had surpassed a Main House member?​


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## Baroxio (Nov 19, 2013)

Hinata was a Main House Member. What's your point?


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## asstonine (Nov 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think so. Remember how surprised Hiashi was when Neji had surpassed a Main House member?​



No, I don't.  He already knew Neji was a genius!  He was surprised that he built up a technique from scratch as a boy.

Also, when was the branch family created?  What evidence do you have he didn't receive the same training?  Even without the training, what evidence do you have he was inferior to his son at 14?  None!  Total BS!


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## Baroxio (Nov 19, 2013)

In order for me to differentiate myself from certain people who must not be named (), I will specify that I believe that Neji surpassed Hizashi, his father during the events of Part 1.

I also believe that Neji at that point was likely the second strongest Hyuga after Hiashi himself, likely having surpassed all other members of either the Branch or Main house.


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## asstonine (Nov 19, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> In order for me to differentiate myself from certain people who must not be named (), I will specify that I believe that Neji surpassed Hizashi, his father during the events of Part 1.
> 
> I also believe that Neji at that point was likely the second strongest Hyuga after Hiashi himself, likely having surpassed all other members of either the Branch or Main house.



So wrong it's not even funny.  As if there weren't other jounin Hyuga...


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## Sadgoob (Nov 19, 2013)

asstonine said:


> Even without the training, what evidence do you have he was inferior to his son at 14?  None!  Total BS!



The databook has Neji at 4.5 taijutsu and 4.0 speed at the end of part one. The databook has Hizashi at 4.0 taijutsu and 4.0 speed in the databook. Neji was stronger in close range combat.​


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## Bansai (Nov 20, 2013)

Vice said:


> Uh, yes. To avoid being annihilated by Shukaku.



Because he doesn't have other skills to avoid such attacks, right? Hiding underground will be enough. 





> What feats does Kabuto have that puts him above Kakashi, much less fucking Shukaku?


He was said to be Kakashi's equal at least a million times. If you can't read the manga properly, I can't help you either. 




> And he has to get around Shukaku to do so.


And that's impossible with his skills and speed or what? You act like you could judge that easily. We've seen Shukaku fighting a few Genin whose speed are clearly inferior to Kabuto's.





> Nice counter arguments. Legit question, are you trolling right now?


It's not like I'm trolling, I'm merely saying what needs to be said. These weren't meant to be arguments, especially not COUNTER arguments, because if I want to use a counter argument, you need to bring an argument first. All you did was coming up with baseless assumptions.





> Seriously?



If Shukaku was as fast as other Biju, Team 7 wouldn't have dodged his attacks so easily. If you want to convince me otherwise, show me a nice panel where we can clearly see Shukaku's unsurpassable speed. 



> Yeah, about the best he could do is try to hide from a rampaging bijuu.


And finding the best opportunity to kill the Jinchuriki above the Biju's head. 





> I don't even think Gaara even needs to transform here. Kabuto can't escape from Gaara turning the entire battlefield into sand, burying Kabuto and crushing him.
> You're funny.
> 
> I mean Kimimaro couldn't avoid this and he's much faster and on an entirely different planet from Kabuto taijutsu wise.


You're funny. Before mentioning such scenes, you should probably also reread them. Did it look like Kimimaro was trying to dodge? He didn't even move an inch. 




> Gaara was doing just fine handling Lee's speed. Kabuto doesn't have gates to resort to like Lee.


That goes for many other characters as well. Does it mean that all of them can't beat Gaara? I wonder.




> He caught Kimimaro. Shukaku certainly would have no trouble with it.


As I said: Because Kimimaro was absolutely trying to dodge. 




> K. And then what?


Well, I don't know about your logic, but fooling and distracting your opponent is quite helpful. If you missed it: That's how he fooled Kakashi as well. 




> If your argument is that part 1 Kabuto can beat Shukaku then it's awful and barely worth responding to.


I won't even get into the "Kabuto vs Shukaku" battle any further. It's just that you believe in the "X can defeat Y, Y can defeat Z so X can defeat Z" principle. Every character has different abilities. Your way of thinking is WAY too monotonous, so I'm actually wondering why I'm responding to you at all. Also if you can't debate without flaming, why doing so at all?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2013)

As much as I like Kimimaro, he is way out of Tsunade's league here, and quite honestly should never be expected to stand a chance against someone that bears the twin titles of Legendary Sannin and Godaime Hokage, rusty or not. Kimimaro may be good enough to hold his own against Tsunade in CQC, with his level of Taijutsu/Kenjutsu proficiency and speed, but I don't see him taking too many hits from the female Sannin any time soon. He's durable, but not that durable.

Current Tsunade's punches are so strong, that they could even rival an Onoki-augmented Ei's physical strikes in power, as quite aptly demonstrated during the fight against Madara. While rusty Tsunade is undoubtedly a lot weaker than his current self, I would say that Madara's Susano'o is just as much more durable than Kimimaro's Shikomatsukyu. I can see Kimimaro surviving one or two punches, but six more and he's definitely down for the count.

In terms of CQC proficiency, Tsunade managed to hold her own against Kabuto, in spite of being severely exhausted and even managed to land quite a few nice hits on Kabuto, even kinda blitzing him at least once during their fight. Unlike Mr. 4-Eyes here, Kimimaro does not have any way to neutralize Tsunade's monstrous strength, nor is he capable of bypassing her great durability that is also enhanced to insane heights through the use of Sozo Saisei's regeneration.

A lot of people seem to brush off the rusty Tsunade's more impressive feats, such as blitzing the 4.5 speed-tier Orochimaru with her kick (or was it a punch?) in spite of lying down on the ground and having a diamond-hard sword punched through her chest, intercepting the very fast Manda mid-bite against Jiraiya and Gamabunta (with Tsunade even outspeeding the 4.5-tier Jiraiya there), and intercepting all of Orochimaru's Kusanagi attacks intended for Naruto, without fail.

I'm sorry, but if Tsunade's speed is enough to pass muster against or alongside her fellow Sannin's own, then there is absolutely no reason for someone like Kimimaro or Kabuto to be capable of evading her endlessly in a fight, especially considering that Kabuto actually couldn't do that at all, even with Tsunade being severely exhausted from the onset of their fight. I don't see her having much problems with landing hits on Kimimaro at all. It won't be too easy, but it won't be particularly difficult either.

Tsunade's Ranshinsho and Shosen no Jutsu could also give her potential advantages against Kimimaro, as the former allows her to mess up Kimimaro's nerve signals and prevent him from using his body correctly, while the latter enables her to overload the guy's chakra to the point he falls unconscious, not unlike how Kabuto knocked out Kiba with the same jutsu. At the very least, it would make her killing him a hell lot easier.

Oh, and the best part is, the OP hasn't even restricted Katsuyu! Kimimaro has no answer at all for Katsuyu, whose acid seems to be more potent than Mei's Futton: Komu no Jutsu (with the former being able to melt more rock in a shorter time than the latter) and has been hyped up as being capable of one-shotting even someone like Orochimaru, who could tank direct exposure to KN4 Naruto's evil chakra. Katsuyu could also keep it firing it around Kimi to limit his movements, if hitting him directly is impossible.

With Katsuyu also there to hit him with long-ranged, powerful acid blasts - Kimimaro has absolutely no chance against Tsunade in CQC. He would've been able to trade blows with this Tsunade in his CS2 state for some time, no doubt, but the combination of the Hokage's overall combat superiority and her giant slug's acid will eventually close in on Kimi and his chances of victory for good. In short, Hashirama's grand-daughter takes this one, with mid-difficulty or so though. But she still wins.



bleakwinter said:


> Why wouldn't it be plausible for a taijutsu  specialist like Kimimaro to have dodged Rasenshuriken? Deva Path dodged  it at point blank range (1). Every path except animal realm was also able to dodge it (2), albeit with a bit more distance required for them to do so.



IIRC,  Deva Realm required the support of two of Naruto's clones in order to  dodge the FRS at point-blank range, using them as leverage to get high  above the attack in the first place. But that's the way I see it.

Human  Realm wasn't able to dodge the Rasenshuriken either, as he was the one  that got destroyed by the technique in the first place, and he is also a  Taijutsu specialist (as evident from his display against SM Jiraiya)  and pretty damn fast to boot. Also, Naruto didn't aim at any one of the  paths in particular, he just intended to land the FRS in the middle of  all of them and catch them all with the expansion, which admittedly  failed to claim more than one of Pain's paths.



ATastyMuffin said:


> It was a one-tailed cloak.
> 
> Furthermore, stop being purposefully disingenuous; Cloaked Lee was fast enough to blitz *Madara* of all people, if you seriously believe a cursed seal enhances Kimimaro by such a degree, I have nothing to say to you.
> 
> ...



While I agree with you almost every step of the way, there's just one thing I'd like to point out.

Rock  Lee wasn't using KN0, you're right, but he clearly wasn't using KN1  either. Absolutely none of the chakra shrouds that Naruto doled out to  the Alliance had any accompanying tails, and the power demonstrated by  the individual members of the Kyuubi-enhanced Alliance completely blows  any of the actual KN1 form's feats out of the water. BM Shikamaru was  temporarily able to single-handedly restrain the Juubi, for one.

Complete  BM fodders were able to survive Madara's Yasaka Magatama, Madara and  Obito's combined Katons and even the Juubi's Tenpenchii, which far  surpasses not only C2 but even jutsu like Chou Shinra Tensei in sheer  destructive capacity. I simply mentioned C2 because this level of  technique was clearly enough to injure CS2 Sasuke, whose durability was  equal to KN1 Naruto. We see the combination of Hachibi's Biju Dama and  the BM Allies' Ninjutsu actually damaging the 2nd Form Juubi, even when  the 1st Form Juubi completely tanked the combination of Hachibi and BM  Naruto's Biju Dama without retaining any damage whatsoever - with the  Hachibi's Biju Dama being the one thing remaining constant.

The  fact that BM Lee not only managed to blitz Madara in the first place,  but even managed to break through some of his body, strongly hints that  it is far superior to Naruto's KN1 form, and a lot closer to KCM/BM in  terms of power and durability than any of Naruto's original Version 1  shrouded forms. It's very likely that they are in fact KN9 shrouds  (being simply diluted forms of Naruto's original BM shroud), just  without the tails.

At any rate, BM Lee > CS2 Kimimaro.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 21, 2013)

Sorry for the super late response(s) gaiz.



Strategoob said:


> Just because he didn't get up immediately, it doesn't mean he was out cold. He was down for a second or two.



The complete lack of movement as he sat there with his tongue in someone else's fist several dozens of meters away for longer than it took Kabuto to panic before crawling over to him and Manda to complain before exiting after making a death-threat, all of which met with zero reaction, suggests a whole lot more than anything else that that he was out cold for more than a second or two.

If anything it seemed like the jerk on his tongue from Manda disappearing and his subsequent fall woke him back up.

What kind of poor misrepresentation is this 6 vs. 2 matter, though? Shizune took Naruto and fled the scene at Katsuyu's request before things got rolling while Kabuto was still with Orochimaru. In addition to that, even after his summon was incapacitated Orochimaru still tried to keep fighting. He then got punched and got the mess out of there as soon as he got back up; naturally, the punch was what scared him away.

And what do you mean he "didn't seem wounded at all"? A lot of people don't _seem_ wounded externally after they've been knocked unconscious. Sakura was in better condition after smashing the back of her head and falling unconscious for far longer. Heck a guy I knocked out with a headshot in a Tae Kwon Do tournament didn't _look_ any more "wounded" than Orochimaru did, but he was unconscious all the same.



> Really? His stretchy neck protected him from Tsunade's super-duper vaporazation punches more than a defensive kekkei genkai would?



Yes. His neck was part of it, but his entire body is stretchy (head included). The strength of those punches was diminished by decades of inactivity back then, too.

Use your common sense and realize that there is zero reason whatsoever for Orochimaru to take over Misumi's body for a Jutsu he already possesses; his goal in finding new hosts is to add more abilities to his collection. His wanting Kimimaro's ability doesn't suggest that his own capabilities were inferior to it. New stuff is always a plus.



> It was an _offensive_ technique. A spearpoint, as you ought to know, is not a shape that's ideal for absorbing of force (if it can't pierce.)



Being an offensive technique doesn't change the fact that it was his strongest and hardest bone or the fact that in order for it to break like that it had to be less solid than what it was intended to impale, triggering Kimimaro's comment about the solidity of Gaara's shield after his drill broke.

Also, _it_ wasn't a  it was more similar to a _step-drill_ being used to spear (as a verb, not noun) Gaara.



Kyokan said:


> They waited til nighttime because there is little to no chance of anyone interrupting.



Viz Kidomaru asks "isn't that Kakashi the Mirror Ninja" before he says that "it'll be too hard _with a shinobi of that caliber around_" and suggests to  "wait a bit" _after_ Kakashi disappeared- thus after he was gone.

They didn't want someone like him interrupting, so they sat there and watched Kakashi leave while it was still daylight and kept sitting there until night to make sure he absolutely wasn't coming back, which doesn't make sense if Tayuya or Sakon truly believed what they were saying. The fact that they didn't try to gang up on and get Kakashi out of the way right there _where they had four and two times the number Tayuya and Sakon respectively believed was necessary_, if anything suggests that it was nothing more than an empty remark intended to simply pick at Kidomaru.



> Yet they still had Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai, Gai in the village. Shinobi who actually matter.



Nooo they didn't; Tsunade began _naming them off as being out of the village on missions_ when explaining why she had no Jōnin to team Shikamaru up with. The only ones that Tsunade said weren't gone were specified to always remain within the village, and thus wouldn't go after anybody or she'd have sent them with Shikamaru then. Those ninja didn't matter because of their inability to get involved in the first place.

Genius war veteran and former Hokage candidate Orochimaru should have reasoned that situation just like Tsunade said Shikamaru, Genma, and Raidō should have done and already did.



> Which is why I said it was poor but it really is the reason. We needed a retrieval arc, if Kakashi had gone then Sasuke would've come back. Kishimoto wanted him gone; the defenses was an excuse for him to do this. Except even sick Kimimaro has the hype and feats to suggest he can tie and defeat Kakashi.





I'm thinking we might need to do a quick recap: What I'm contesting is who was and wasn't included in Kabuto's statement and I'm asserting that Kakashi was excluded because of his state of being preoccupied, or in other words, that Kimimaro _does not_ have the hype to defeat Kakashi.

Now, is it somehow not occurring to you that, if Kishimoto could free Kakashi of his missions earlier, he could make Kimimaro get off of his bed earlier. If Kimimaro was truly the fighter you're making him out to be then the arc could have gone on regardless of Kakashi giving chase.

Blaming it on plot is virtually tantamount to "plot stopped Kimimaro from being hyped to be able to defeat Kakashi, and we know it was plot because we needed an arc except Kimimaro has the hype to suggest he could beat Kakashi".

We can logically explain it another way, so why is plot especially the reason over said explanation in this case any more than it is in any other case? Especially when one could just as easily turn around and say that there is no "_except_ Kimimaro", and that "plot" did nothing but protect Kimi instead as he would have been rendered moot alongside everyone else?



> If Tsunade had known that two of her Genin would have almost died, two more were badly wounded and that they would not have retrieved a member of the strongest clan being delivered to Konoha greatest (at the time) enemy then I think she would have gone herself because that's IC for her.



How you figure that is beyond me. She saw two of her Jōnin almost die and listened to them say that sending those Genin was being very unreasonable and that she should have sent a team of Jōnin(massive red flags that there were going to be sever repercussions right there), yet wasn't provoked to go after them herself or even so much as bat an eye. That's because she's the Hokage, central pillar of Konoha; the central pillar of a weakened structure _*cannot*_ leave it lest one wishes for it to collapse. Thus, this was not a "gamble", it was her only option.

She also didn't _"agree"_ with Lee's decision, she just left the choice to him because it was his life. Jiraiya thought Naruto was a fool for going after Sasuke but still left the option there for him even as he maintained that it was foolish. Sure, Tsunade was glad to see that the kids could make decisions for themselves, but that isn't the same as legitimately agreeing with said decisions.



> Differently is the key word, he could react differently because his reflexes improved.



It is the key word, and it isn't synonymous with quicker; he reacted differently because the power of the Cursed Seal allowed him to use his bones more extensively. Improved reflexes do not make one less predictable, and more unpredictability was what Kimimaro was after once what according to the databook was his most unpredictable base attack failed to hit Lee.



> Actually they took a few panels when Lee took them off.



Yes, and said panels only amounted to seconds...and that's with him having to remove the clothing on top of the weights first, which he wouldn't be doing were he just putting them on. It takes no longer to slip the weights on than it does anything else.



> He wasn't thinking about that then though, he was only thinking about Sakura.



He didn't know it was Sakura until _after he got there_. It isn't like her name was on the explosive note, he just went in the direction the squirrel came from to find out what was going on.



> It doesn't take that long to read a label and Tsunade commented on his quick escape.



Tsunade was simply frustrated that he slipped away while she was treating two other heavily injured people, not that it was some super quick event. She did comment on his being confused though, so I don't see why we would attribute his grabbing the medicine bottle to being in a hurry when he still didn't notice that it was sake later on (when he was no longer rushing to get somewhere).

Heck, he didn't even notice it was the wrong thing _after he tasted it_ and just said it was gross medicine, implying that he wasn't even familiar with it in the first place. I'm pretty sure he just the got bottles honestly mixed up because they're identical and taking that medicine was still a new thing to him.



> If the pills can close a 1.5 Taijutsu/1.0 Speed gap plus make up for a Kekkai Genkai plus a cursed seal boost why does no one ever take them?



I think you may have missed where I said Kimi's Kekkei Genkai still disadvantaged Kabuto.

As for why the pills aren't such a widespread thing: they don't work for everybody, but they're still ideal for certain individuals as Asuma clarified during the exam preliminaries. (Though it's slightly different, I'm sure you've heard drug commercials go "taking -insert name here- is not for everybody, talk to your doctor about...".)

You don't see everybody using the blue and yellow pills either despite them granting a general physical disparity + Cursed Seal compensating boost, do you? Even against Pein with the world's top medic in the village? No you don't. Just because only select individuals are seen using something doesn't suggest that its effect isn't a great one.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> _A heavily exhausted_ Tsunade could barely touch Kabuto, so Kimimaro being a tier faster and over a tier more skilled at taijutsu is not getting touched. Healthy Kimimaro would probably be even more impressive with a full 5/5 speed, etc. She stands no chance in a contest of finesse.​




Fixed. ​


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## Stermor (Nov 21, 2013)

the idoicy that kimimaro could touch even rusty tsunade.... 

kimimaro was slower then pre skip just out of the hospital lee.. 

but tsunade actually grabbed and beat orochimaru who is kinda above genin.... by virtue of trouncing team 7 without effort.. or fighting jiriaya.. 

even rusty tsunade is well beyond kimimaro(as are all elite jounin and better)..


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## Ersa (Nov 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> > Viz Kidomaru asks "isn't that Kakashi the Mirror Ninja" before he says that "it'll be too hard _with a shinobi of that caliber around_" and suggests to  "wait a bit" _after_ Kakashi disappeared- thus after he was gone.
> >
> > They didn't want someone like him interrupting, so they sat there and watched Kakashi leave while it was still daylight and kept sitting there until night to make sure he absolutely wasn't coming back, which doesn't make sense if Tayuya or Sakon truly believed what they were saying. The fact that they didn't try to gang up on and get Kakashi out of the way right there _where they had four and two times the number Tayuya and Sakon respectively believed was necessary_, if anything suggests that it was nothing more than an empty remark intended to simply pick at Kidomaru.
> 
> ...


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## Skywalker (Nov 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> the idoicy that kimimaro could touch even rusty tsunade....
> 
> kimimaro was slower then pre skip just out of the hospital lee..
> 
> ...


Kimimro wasn't slower then Lee, Lee was just unpredictable as hell while drunk, but normal Lee got his shit wrecked. 

Also, you're implying Kimimaro isn't hanging around Elite Jounin, which he is. The only thing Tsunade has on Kimimaro is superior strength and healing.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Nov 21, 2013)

Some serious underrating of Kimimaro going on, he's definitely low Kage level and Tsunade is about that same spot.

Healthy, CS2 Kimi ends with dance of seedling fern. Tsunade isn't regenerating when her head is severed. I give it to Kimi 8/10, only real problem is Katsuyu.


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## Stermor (Nov 22, 2013)

Skywalker said:


> Kimimro wasn't slower then Lee, Lee was just unpredictable as hell while drunk, but normal Lee got his shit wrecked.
> 
> Also, you're implying Kimimaro isn't hanging around Elite Jounin, which he is. The only thing Tsunade has on Kimimaro is superior strength and healing.



it doesnt matter he was faster then lee and if he also had better reactions(which he did) even unpredictability would not have mattered.. but it did.. therefor he was slower then lee....  it is either kimimaro had bad reactions or bad speed or bad skill.. 

kimimaro we have seen is slower then pre skip just out of the hospital lee...  this is clear..

therefor regardless of whatever other impressive skills he posseses.. he is way way to slow to compete with elite jounin or hell even kages.. 

base gai was still faster then 5 gated lee.. but somehow another taijutsu oriented kage(like you believe) can't even keep up with lee.. do you understand that is a problem.. either he is not an kage/elite jounin lvl opponent.. or lee is superior to kage lvl opponents.. and 5 gated lee is way beyond kage lvl.. and base gai is way way beyond kage lvl... let not even start how powerful gated gai would be....


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## Ersa (Nov 22, 2013)

Stermor said:


> it doesnt matter he was faster then lee and if he also had better reactions(which he did) even unpredictability would not have mattered.. but it did.. therefor he was slower then lee....  it is either kimimaro had bad reactions or bad speed or bad skill..
> 
> kimimaro we have seen is slower then pre skip just out of the hospital lee...  this is clear..
> 
> ...


Kimimaro was sick and dying, Tayuya and Kabuto commented his body shouldn't even be able to move. And he was not slower than Lee, he wiped the floor with a 1st Gate non-drunk Lee. Drunk First is deadly because it's impossible to predict; even Gai couldn't stop him and got knocked out. Even Tsunade had a bead of sweat on her face from hearing it.

Link removed

He has 4.5 in speed and 5 in Taijutsu and a Kekkai Genkai built for CQC plus his Juin. How on earth do you get slow speed and poor skills? 1st Gate Lee should be faster than ungated Drunk Lee, it's the latters extreme unpredictability that is dangerous. Sasuke can track and react to KN1 Naruto just fine but can't react to the chakra because it's too unpredictable.

He can't compete with Elite Jounin? Um, how come he can easily control an Elite Jounin like CS2 Juugo? Not to mention Kabuto more or less admitted Kimimaro was superior to him.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 22, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Attacking Kakashi who would have back-up due to the commotion it would cause would be borderline-stupid. Kakashi could probably defeat or give them one hell of a fight. I think the statement is very valid, they could win via having CS2 Sakon, Jirobo and Kidomaru distract Kakashi long enough for Tayuya to put him under _Mugen Ousa_ for example.



How is jumping someone and slashing their neck (the action they were bringing up) supposed to cause a commotion? Like at all? That isn't going to draw everyone's attention just like Itachi, Asuma, and Kurenai didn't draw everyone's attention with their fight. Kisame was the only one who could draw attention if he fought, and I'm pretty sure you know why. The Sound 4 do not create tidal waves visible from miles away in their battles.

Or a _Kage Bunshin_ _Raikiri_'s Tayuya while the others get steamrolled. I'm failing to see how a hypothetical scenario that involves all 4 members of the group in any way validates the statements that _one or two_ of them could beat the fresh top Jōnin of Konoha in Kakashi when all four collectively barely managed to beat an already exhausted pair of special Jōnin in Genma and Raidō.



> That was in response to your comment saying Kisame thought the village looked weak







> Orochimaru has made some poor deductions in the past and I doubt he'd think the village would be totally defenseless, regardless of how weak it is.



So because Orochimaru has made poor deductions in the past which consistently involved _under_estimating his opponents you're going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he'd high-end the village's condition? *Under*estimation was Orochimaru's shtick up until he was sealed by Itachi, which happened long after these events, and he didn't learn his lesson until his revival during the Fourth Great Ninja War.

But even then, I didn't say Orochimaru would figure that the village was "totally defenseless". He knew it wasn't because of Tsunade's inauguration as Hokage; however, the Kage is one of the ninja who _stays inside_ the village. Ninjas that don't mobilize wouldn't be a factor in a mission involving carrying someone _away from_ the village.



> See where I'm getting at?



Not really, because you're neglecting to consider how many different ways the arc could progress. Do not underestimate the power of the author to alter courses of action, because there's hardly anything it can't do to a story.

Plot permitting, Kimimaro could come out _first at the beginning of the chase_ while the rest of the Sound 4 continued on their way with Sasuke. Kakashi would be the only one that could handle him and send the rest of the group after the others like he sent Naruto and Sakura after Gaara, and heck back in the village Tsunade could even consider the Sand Siblings unnecessary since Kakashi would actually be there this time.

So, _*unless Kakashi can walk over Kimimaro too*_ the arc _wouldn't_ be finished.

See what _I'm_ getting at? The shoddy "PIS" excuse can be reversed and thrown right back, so why should you expect me to switch to your point of view?



> His Part II feats/hype and his prior hype and feats while fighting near-death suggests he could very well defeat Part I Kakashi.



What hype and feats, though?

Stopping Jūgo, which Suigetsu could replicate with ease? Since when was that enough to put someone on par with any incarnation of Kakashi, or even anything special in the eyes of a Jōnin?



> It's a similar situation to why Minato was never there for Kakashi.



Minato could have solo'd those enemies. Is this meant to imply Kakashi can solo the Sound 5? 



> She trusts Naruto, he beats the odds in her mind. She saw a lowly Genin fight for her and defeat an "Elite-Jounin", yes I know circumstances were not a fair fight *but in her eyes it probably was*.



The bolded is based on?

Tsunade is an optimist not an idiot. Naruto is but a single member of that entire platoon, and no she didn't see a Genin defeat an elite Jōnin; she saw a Genin casually get his butt kicked before lucking out and landing a Jutsu that the Jōnin _recovered from_ while _*she* had to save the Genin's life_. The Genin didn't "defeat" crap.



> She did agree, she went so far out of her way to improve the odds. There was a panel of her reflecting the children of the village had grown up so well due to her teacher.



That "improving the odds" thing was anime-only, and that panel is exactly what I was referring to when I said Tsunade was happy to see that they could make decisions for themselves. It _doesn't_ imply that she agrees with his decision.



> The CS only seems to augment his bones strength not their method of use. That comes from his Kekkai Genkai. Also he did a partial transformation to CS1, I'm very certain it improved his reflexes to a certain extent as he commented he couldn't predict Lee's moves before.



There is a reason he activated the Cursed Seal _before_ his arm started dislodging and a multitude of bones started erupting.

Base Kimimaro only ever elongated and sharpened bones already in the regions and directions they protruded from; CS1 Kimi produced multitudes of more irregularly located, shaped, and directed bones; CS2 Kimi merged with his bones and the databook attributes this ability specifically to the power of CS2.

I'm pretty sure the method of use _is_ affected by the Cursed Seal.

The fact remains that Kimimaro fared no better with actual bodily maneuvers against Lee in CS1 than in base. He was able to react just fine in _both_ states, so really I don't see any reason whatsoever to believe the lesser stage of the same Cursed Seal that slows Kimimaro down would grant him a boost in reflexiveness or speed, because augmented reflexes and speed were not required to catch Lee the way he did, only a difference in method was.



> The point stands, his mind was not on the weights then.



His mind was on why someone would attach an explosive note to a squirrel, which didn't put him in such a hurry that it should make him forget that taking off weights might be safer in the exam where everyone is out to kill each other. Here his mind was on taking everything he had out of the room and leaving.

Actually, you know what: Weights are part of his daily training and as we see in Gai's flashbacks Lee kept up said training even while he was injured. He'd have had them on up until Tsunade took him inside to operate, and with not a single article of his attire being left in that room you'd naturally figure that he had his weights on. 



> The pills burn fat; something not every character has but the Akimichi clan makes full use of. Kabuto isn't part of any clan, the pills work for everyone.



According to you they don't because not a single Akimichi used those pills against Pein. By your logic this means that they don't afford a great boost, in spite of the fact that we already saw them allow Chōji to compensate for Jirōbō's superior base stats _and_ Cursed Seal.

If the pills did work for everyone then they wouldn't be ideal for select individuals according to Asuma. We don't need a specification on the prerequisites as long as they've been implied to be there, it just means that the people we see eat those pills meet said prerequisites. Kabuto being able to use them doesn't mean they work out for everybody, and on top of that simply working doesn't mean everybody will use them as I've pointed out to you with the Akimichis who have only been seen using the pills on a single occasion despite there being several a lot fatter than Chōji, and thus isn't something to discredit the afforded boost.

Also, since when were the ninja steroid pills more for stamina than speed? Kiba wasn't having any issues with stamina when he popped the pills and Kurenai only said that he took the them because he wanted to end it fast (of course, relying on speed and Taijutsu), then Naruto went from being able to counter in spite of a smoke bomb distraction to being unable to keep up with Kiba or Akamaru's movements (and getting lucky that he farted in Kiba's face). Though when ninja, especially ones whose main skills concern evasion such as Kabuto, dodge by driving Chakra to their feet having more than double the Chakra being distributed is obviously going to go quite a ways in boosting your speed.


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