# Munboy Where is the Statement?



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian  claims there is a statement in the manga that directly says that Naruto SM offers a greater boost then Jiraiya to all attributes and says it’s a greater then x10 boost. I’ve read the manga many times and data books and even in Japanese, never seen this statements. I’ve asked Multiple times for it and he keeps saying read the manga:



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its in the manga you didn't read.



I tend to just ignore people who straight lie; but since Munboy was a good poster back in the day I want to give him or anyone else for that matter a chance to produce this supposed statement from Databooks or otherwise, before I just put him on my ignore list.

So I’ll ask one more time Munboy where’s the statement?

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian

You have till the end of the day, then ignore list

Or you can admit you were lying and stop being this shit up...your choice


----------



## Francyst (Apr 20, 2019)

Tbh I'm curious too. I keep seeing Naruto benefits more from SM and that Jiraiya doesn't have danger sense but I never see any proof


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Wtf did you really make a thread for this???


Tired of people straight lying; and if he’s not lying I would like to see the statement


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Francyst said:


> Tbh I'm curious too. I keep seeing Naruto benefits more from SM and that Jiraiya doesn't have danger sense but I never see any proof


Even if Naruto has danger sensing and Jiraiya didn’t, which I don’t agree with and but can understand where people are coming from with that. That still doesn’t mean Naruto gets some massively greater boost from Sage Mode that Jiraiya doesn’t


----------



## SakuraLover16 (Apr 20, 2019)

I personally believe the difference is minimal at best and believe Jiraiya's is more useful because it's practically unlimited

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

I triggered Turrin. 

Address the arguments you never properly addressed and then we can go from there -- so lazy, he couldn't even search for them himself.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I triggered Turrin.
> 
> Address the arguments you never properly addressed and then we can go from there -- so lazy, he couldn't even search for them himself.


None of those links take me to the statement you have been claiming exists.

So I’m still waiting

I’ll address whatever argument you want after you admit your lying about this statement; or show it to me



Ishmael said:


> You won't have anyone to debate with at the rate you're throwing people on ignore lmao


I’ve put 2 people on my ignore list both for lying; that’s it In my entire “career” on the forums


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Jesus Christ, I seem to trigger posters who have an obsession with characters. 

1. Nikushimi who said he got a migraine and was emotionally fucked because I said Sasuke>Itachi

2. Turrin who has not gotten so affected he has to name a thread after me and cause drama because I said Naruto's SM > Jiraiya's SM.

Fun fact: Nikushimi's thread was in 2009... Turrin's is in 2019. 



Turrin said:


> None of those links take me to the statement you have been claiming exists.
> 
> So I’m still waiting



Read the stuff you are ignoring, I'm not reposting all of that for you. I'm sure you can read posts properly, you used to back in the day.

Show me that you actually read them the first time as I'm not going to regurgitate the exact same points over and over again.


----------



## Sufex (Apr 20, 2019)

this retcon turrin arc is getting so good. never seen him this triggered or incensed.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> this recon turrin arc is getting so good. never seen him this triggered or incensed.



I want to know why it is always _me _triggering these posters.

There was also Jizz, a rapid Sasuke fan, and Sujee, a bigger Itachi fan than all the fan girls and that guy in Russia who killed himself because Itachi died in the anime (bear in mind the chapters where Itachi was revived were released). The list goes on.



I must be connected to these posters like how Indra and Asura were connected to one-another.


----------



## Sufex (Apr 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Lying this, lying that, Turrin is acting like a twat.





Turrin said:


> I’ve put 2 people on my ignore list both for lying; that’s it In my entire “career” on the forums


You've only been a member since feb. Thats a damn achievement zembie


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read the stuff you are ignoring, I'm not reposting all of that for you. I'm sure you can read posts properly, you used to back in the day.
> 
> Show me that you actually read them the first time as I'm not going to regurgitate the exact same points over and over again.


Munboy your acting like it’s some incredibly hard task to Quote a statement.

For example: “this might mean Naruto boy has become a sage exceeding Jiraiya” 

Is a statement that says Naruto is a better Sage then jiraiya (well might be), but *does not say Naruto Sage Mode boosts him in all aspects more then Jiraiyas or more then x10*

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Munboy your acting like it’s some incredibly hard task to Quote a statement.
> 
> For example: “this might mean Naruto boy has become a sage exceeding Jiraiya”
> 
> Is a statement that says Naruto is a better Sage then jiraiya (well might be), but *does not say Naruto Sage Mode boosts him in all aspects more then Jiraiyas or more then x10*



It is incredibly hard to make an effort with someone who ignored *three *posts addressing the *exact same questions *he asked before. I was kind enough to link you to the posts, go read them. If you're unwilling to read the posts, it automatically tells me that you're going to ignore stuff I present _from the exact same posts I linked you to*. *_

For example, I showed you the pages where Naruto was said to be a better Sage. I showed you feats where Naruto did what Jiraiya could not do.

The one thing I did not do was show you how the CS, which you say is the same as SM, was Oro's _*stepping stone *_to obtain a perfect SM. In fact, I did point this out to you many times in other posts.

If you're not going to bother looking at the links and addressing the same arguments I'd use here then there's hardly any point in this.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Zembie (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is incredibly hard to make an effort with someone who ignored *three *posts addressing the *exact same questions *he asked before. I was kind enough to link you to the posts, go read them. If you're unwilling to read the posts, it automatically tells me that you're going to ignore stuff I present _from the exact same posts I linked you to*. *_
> 
> For example, I showed you the pages where Naruto was said to be a better Sage. I showed you feats where Naruto did what Jiraiya could not do.
> 
> ...


I gotta applaud you for even debating at this point. You're strong willed that's for sure.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

"Jiraiya boy wasn't able to master this"..."He has become a Sage exceeding Jiraiya-boy"... yet they both only get a 10x multiplier.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Zembie (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> "Jiraiya boy wasn't able to master this"..."He has become a Sage exceeding Jiraiya-boy"... yet they both only get a 10x multiplier.


Using multipliers at all for Naruto power-ups is sad


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

- Jiraiya re shared vision with 2 sets functional Rinnegan: "I'll be killed at this rate".
- Fukasaku after Animal Path was taken down: "the trap won't work again and there are even more eyes out there"... this was re 4 sets of functional Rinnegan.

- Naruto re shared vision with 5 sets of functional Rinnegan: "I'll hit them with something they can't see"-- job done. 
- Shared vision only becomes an issue when SM is about to run out. 
- Deva's powers return, Naruto still has no problems with shared vision. 

Yet Naruto, who mastered SM, and Jiraiya, who did not master SM, get the same boosts.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is incredibly hard to make an effort with someone who ignored *three *posts addressing the *exact same questions *he asked before. I was kind enough to link you to the posts, go read them. If you're unwilling to read the posts, it automatically tells me that you're going to ignore stuff I present _from the exact same posts I linked you to*. *_
> 
> For example, I showed you the pages where Naruto was said to be a better Sage. I showed you feats where Naruto did what Jiraiya could not do.
> 
> ...


It’s increidlby hard to discuss something with someone who asserts a statement exists that doesn’t.

You keep showing me a statements that say Naruto is a better Sage or Sage Mode > CS. I’ve never disputed any of this. However being a better Sage or Sage Mode being more advanced then CS does not mean that Naruto Sage Mode offers universally greater boosts nor are any of those statements saying that.

So again if you want to admit your lying / misrepresented those statements I will gladly take time to address any other points you think are valid. But if your going to continue to assert a statement exists that doesn’t your going on my ignore list by the end of the day


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Kabuto "unlike [Oro], I have become a perfect Sage"... apparently that's nonsense seeing as Oro and Kabuto would have the same boost in power seeing as being a perfect Sage has no real benefits. 

I was going to address the fact Jiraiya couldn't detect Nagato's location with his infinite SM when he got stabbed by the Outer Path stake yet Naruto did... but I remembered that I already did in the posts Turrin doesn't want to read.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto "unlike [Oro], I have become a perfect Sage"... apparently that's nonsense seeing as Oro and Kabuto would have the same boost in power seeing as being a perfect Sage has no real benefits.
> 
> I was going to address the fact Jiraiya couldn't detect Nagato's location with his infinite SM when he got stabbed by the Outer Path stake yet Naruto did... but I remembered that I already did in the posts Turrin doesn't want to read.


No one asked you to address any of this; I asked you to address the statement your lying about.

And again being better Sage statements are not the same thing as a statement that says someone is boosts all around more

Can you not comprehend that someone can be a better Sage but not get a greater raw power boost. Can you not comprehend that Naruto being a superior Sage can make him better in other ways then just raw power?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It’s increidlby hard to discuss something with someone who asserts a statement exists that doesn’t.



That's your poor interpretation, I said you ignore a lot of things. I pointed out what you choose to ignore, somehow your brain processed that there's a statement. In fact, you did find one (Naruto is a better Sage) but found excuses to deny it; whilst you chose to leave out the statement indicating Jiraiya did not master SM. 

Yet ninja wants to talk about dishonesty. 



> You keep showing me a statements that say Naruto is a better Sage or Sage Mode > CS. I’ve never disputed any of this. However being a better Sage or Sage Mode being more advanced then CS does not mean that Naruto Sage Mode offers universally greater boosts nor are any of those statements saying that.



Most of this is addressed *in the posts you refuse to read. *See where I'm going with this? 



> So again if you want to admit your lying / misrepresented those statements I will gladly take time to address any other points you think are valid. But if your going to continue to assert a statement exists that doesn’t your going on my ignore list by the end of the day



No Turrin, you're lying and misrepresenting. If you're not, address the points, I've linked them and I've even posted some sarky editions ITT. Put me on ignore if you don't have the courtesy to even address the points.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's your poor interpretation, I said you ignore a lot of things. I pointed out what you choose to ignore, somehow your brain processed that there's a statement. In fact, you did find one (Naruto is a better Sage) but found excuses to deny it; whilst you chose to leave out the statement indicating Jiraiya did not master SM.
> 
> Yet ninja wants to talk about dishonesty.
> 
> ...


You claimed there was a statement repeatedly that did not exist. You are lying I will gladly address the other points when your admit this. Stop trying to back out and just admit you were lying


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No one asked you to address any of this; I asked you to address the statement your lying about.
> 
> And again being better Sage statements are not the same thing as a statement that says someone is boosts all around more
> 
> Can you not comprehend that someone can be a better Sage but not get a greater raw power boost. Can you not comprehend that Naruto being a superior Sage can make him better in other ways then just raw power



I changed my mind, you're not lying or misrepresenting, you are genuinely misguided. 

Those are _all _interrelated. Also, why did you quote this post and ignore this one?




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> "Jiraiya boy wasn't able to master this"..."He has become a Sage exceeding Jiraiya-boy"... yet they both only get a 10x multiplier.




One might think you're purposely avoiding things.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I changed my mind, you're not lying or misrepresenting, you are genuinely misguided.
> 
> Those are _all _interrelated. Also, why did you quote this post and ignore this one?
> 
> ...


Statement or admission you were lying or ignore list at end of day. Only 3 options all other posts from you won’t be addresses from here on out

Sorry just don’t see a point in discussing the manga with liars


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You claimed there was a statement repeatedly that did not exist. You are lying I will gladly address the other points when your admit this. Stop trying to back out
> and just admit you were lying



>Turrin: "Stop backing out"

>Munboy: "Read the posts I made which addresses them"

>Turrin: "Provide the statements, don't back out"

>Munboy: "I literally gave you the posts"

>Turrin: "Stop lying, admit you were lying"

>Munboy: 

@WorldsStrongest @Ishmael @King1 

What do I do here? So I have to type in another language?

NF what do I do, I've given him a statement _and _linked him with 3 posts? 



Turrin said:


> Statement or admission you were lying or ignore list at end of day. Only 3 options all other posts from you won’t be addresses from here on out
> 
> Sorry just don’t see a point in discussing the manga with liars







Zembie said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian  I think you should opt for the ignore list. Turrin will put you there regardless, but I think there is no point in arguing with a dumbass.



I even told him to put me on the ignore list if he wasn't going to address the posts. I am honestly beginning to think that he wants the attention. 

The funniest part is one of the posts he's ignoring starts with this:


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I even told him to put me on the ignore list if he wasn't going to address the posts. I am honestly beginning to think that he wants the attention.
> 
> The funniest part is one of the posts he's ignoring starts with this:


Does that statement say Naruto Sage Mode offers a bigger boost no it doesn’t try again. Otherwise like I said won’t address any of the rest


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Does that statement say Naruto Sage Mode offers a bigger boost no it doesn’t try again. Otherwise like I said won’t address any of the rest



How does your mind process "Jiraiya didn't master this"?

How does your mind also process Kabuto making a big deal about becoming a perfect Sage?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Apr 20, 2019)

Naruto is flat out stated to have become a better sage than jiraiya
Naruto is flat out stated to be more powerful than Jiraiya is as a combatant
Naruto has better sensory feats
Naruto has better strength feats
Naruto has an inferior base, but is superior in SM
"Same boost"

Amazing logic Turrin


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

@Android
What language should I use to communicate here?


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 20, 2019)

Have a civil discussion without insulting, please. 

Insults and flaming will result in a warning, at least.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Hardcore (Apr 20, 2019)

Naruto's SM was told to be superior than Jiraya's, and that's referenced and shown directly in many ways. 

You can't take statements that explain Jiraya's SM, and then use them to limit Naruto's SM, sounds so wrong.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

I've provided everything I can, including posts I previously made on this topic. At least address those points, Turrin.


----------



## Android (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> @Android
> What language should I use to communicate here?


Feats?


----------



## Ishmael (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> >Turrin: "Stop backing out"
> 
> >Munboy: "Read the posts I made which addresses them"
> 
> ...



Lmfaoo man they say Turrin likes to ignore his opponent in debates, I'm finally seeing it for myself.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> Naruto's SM was told to be superior than Jiraya's, and that's referenced and shown directly in many ways.
> 
> You can't take statements that explain Jiraya's SM, and then use them to limit Naruto's SM, sounds so wrong.



These posts, the ones he refuses to look at, literally outline these points with pages/panels. 





Jiraiya's physical attacks doing nothing to Pain when the latter blocked compared to Naruto's sending Pain flying in the same conditions should be a huge indicator. Jiraiya is physically stronger than Naruto was in his base form...

All we'll get from Turrin is "Naruto's chakra capacity is why he showed better feats" even through it ignores Fukasaku telling us chakra capacity only makes one eligible to learn Senjutsu.

From the way this is going, I doubt he'



Android said:


> Feats?



I did:




I'm unsure what to do. 



Ishmael said:


> Lmfaoo man they say Turrin likes to ignore his opponent in debates, I'm finally seeing it for myself.



When I saw a thread calling me out, I thought the guy was waiting for my points. But from the way he's acting, it seems like he has no intention of doing so. I've shown him the manga, I've shown him feats-- not sure what more he needs to see. 

Ironically when he says he needs a statement of a multiplier, he doesn't provide any statement saying Naruto's superior showings were only due to Naruto's high chakra capacity.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto is flat out stated to have become a better sage than jiraiya
> Naruto is flat out stated to be more powerful than Jiraiya is as a combatant
> Naruto has better sensory feats
> Naruto has better strength feats
> ...


1. Being a better sage doesn’t mean having a greater boost. It has meaning in other things: Speed at gathering natural energy, ability to gather natural energy with clones, better at Sage Arts,
etc....

2. Naruto being a better combatant doesn’t mean he has a large boost from Sage Mode. He’s better in other ways then Jiraiya

3. Sensing is a product of Frog Fu and yeah he might be better then Jiraiya at this. But this irrelevant to how much of a boost his Sage Mode gives him in comparison to Jiraiya

4. He doesn’t; both have slapped boss summon sized creatures; the limits of both haven’t been tested

5. Naruto Base being inferior is irrelevant as Sage Mode makes things possible for Naruto that aren’t possible in Base such as using Sage Arts and FRS 100%. If Naruto had Frog Fu and SM sensing + FRS 100% in base he’d be superior to Base Jiraiya too. The boost isnt  why he’s better



Hardcore said:


> Naruto's SM was told to be superior than Jiraya's, and that's referenced and shown directly in many ways.
> 
> You can't take statements that explain Jiraya's SM, and then use them to limit Naruto's SM, sounds so wrong.


It’s never been stated to offer greater boosts. I agree Naruto is a better Sage



Ishmael said:


> Lmfaoo man they say Turrin likes to ignore his opponent in debates, I'm finally seeing it for myself.


I was thinking about mentioning you as. One of the best debaters, this is disappointing man


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Being a better sage doesn’t mean having a greater boost. It has meaning in other things: Speed at gathering natural energy, ability to gather natural energy with clones, better at Sage Arts,
> etc....



Are you being serious? Naruto literally showed things Jiraiya could not do... Fukasaku even said Jiraiya did not master Senjutsu...



> 2. Naruto being a better combatant doesn’t mean he has a large boost from Sage Mode. He’s better in other ways then Jiraiya



How can he go from being physically weaker and slower than Jiraiya to being physically stronger and faster than Sage Jiraiya, dude? 



> 3. Sensing is a product of Frog Fu and yeah he might be better then Jiraiya at this. But this irrelevant to how much of a boost his Sage Mode gives him in comparison to Jiraiya



Irrelevant boost... Jiraiya's main issue was shared vision and it wasn't a tremendous factor for Naruto. For goodness sake, Deva didn't even need to use his powers on Jiraiya. :lmso



> 4. He doesn’t; both have slapped boss summon sized creatures; the limits of both haven’t been tested



Jiraiya punched one after being hit... Naruto stopped one and flung it in the air... Naruto tossed the damn Kyuubi. What more do you need? 



> 5. Naruto Base being inferior is irrelevant as Sage Mode makes things possible for Naruto that aren’t possible in Base such as using Sage Arts and FRS 100%. If Naruto had Frog Fu and SM sensing + FRS 100% in base he’d be superior to Base Jiraiya too. The boost is why he’s better



Do you not realise you inadvertently conceded to him?

You are saying base Naruto needs frog fu, SM sensing and 100% FRS to be superior to base Jiraiya -- put another way, without these things base Naruto _*is not *_superior to base Jiraiya. In other words for SM to take Naruto beyond Jiraiya, it needs to have a superior boost compared to what Jiraiya gets. 

Now, Turrin Homles, if they got *the same boosts *Fukasaku would have said Jiraiya mastered it and Jiraiya would also have ghost punching, superior Sage sensing etc... it is almost like Jiraiya _doesn't _get the same boosts. 

Also, you chose to ignore SM Naruto could detect Naruto after being hit with the Outer Path stakes whilst Jiraiya could not... Same boost?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Zembie (Apr 20, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Will @Munboy Dracule O'Brian  deliver the statement?!
> Will @Turrin even accept the statement?!
> 
> Is SM=CS?!
> ...






You should make a RSM Naruto = Hashirama one.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Will @Munboy Dracule O'Brian  deliver the statement?!
> Will @Turrin even accept the statement?!
> 
> Is SM=CS?!
> ...


Are you going to also claim that Fusaku saying Naruto is a better Sage is the same thing as his Sage Mode boosting him more?

I have room on my ignore list for another.

I have zero tolerance for people saying a statement says one thing when it doesn’t. Want to say that’s your interpretation that’s fine though.


----------



## Hardcore (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It’s never been stated to offer greater boosts. I agree Naruto is a better Sage



if you agree that, then you can't limit him to the same boost, feats contradict that, and using multipliers to determine key components of an argument doesn't sound right to begin with.



Turrin said:


> Are you going to also claim that Fusaku saying Naruto is a better Sage is the same thing as his Sage Mode boosting him more?
> 
> I have room on my ignore list for two



can you remove @Hussain?



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Dude thats the part that ım disagree. W/o sagehood potential (the thing that exceeding over) There is no indiciation about  (at least not clearly) Sage Jiraiya inferior ninja to Rookie PA SM Naruto.
> 
> Im agree with you about Naruto has better boost (which is kinda bit about Kyuubi and plot) but its not "INSANELY" different.
> 
> ...



Good effort, still wrong. 

It was literally said that Jiraiya never mastered Senjutsu and Naruto mastering Senjutsu made him a better Sage. Feats also show this. What more do you really need? Kurama only aids in regeneration, that is it... but feats show Naruto's benefits expand beyond that.

1. Their "sagehood" is their final SM. 

2. Your points are all wrong. 
a. Yes, which is why Naruto's SM is superior; it makes Naruto stronger than SM Jiraiya. 
b. Same scenarios, Naruto did exceptionally better. If you read the links I posted that everyone arguing for Jiraiya ignores, you'd see that. One big hint: Deva Path's powers weren't use on Jiraiya.
c. He compared them as Sages.

Nothing you say is supported by the manga.



> Jiraiya also can enter it on his own. The opppsite of it never stated. On the contrary ı proved it with manga panel.



I literally gave you a page where the opposite was stated. 
All you proved was Jiraiya can enter SM in Myoubokuzan where the toad oil is...



> So he is basicaly better instant control but bad at it almost any other thing of it. And when Minato perform sage mode he was edo and has kyuubi ( that means a lot of energy recovery and chakra regeneration ) We actualy dont know a thing about Base Sage Minato.
> 
> And he didnt said "Im worse than Naruto" He said "ım not good at it." And Fukasaku said "He is one of the best" for Jiraiya.
> 
> In the end there is nothing "obvious" about what did u say. I think this is the reaon why Turrin turned on. Dude implies =/= clear statements. Most of the things you and ı said is "observative conclusions" not "clear author aprooved statements". So NO! Minato not "OBVIOUSLY" better sage. He could be idk but ı know its not "OBVIOUS"



What does Minato's Edo status have anything to do with this? Minato wasn't a Jinchuriki when he entered SM... 

It is obvious, you're just being incredibly dishonest like Turrin is. 

Fukasaku said that Jiraiya, who didn't master Senjutsu, was one of the the best. _One _of the best. That means there were others, including those better such as Minato. 



> That quote would be have the meaning of what wrote in it. But since we have Fukasaku other statement about Jiraiya (who is fine with get in SM By himself) that quote kinda a thing like "Jiraiya why the heck you called us and why doing your job by yourself". After all, Ma is kinda has complaining figure a lot. She also rejected the idea of Frog Song at first too. So she could be complaining again.
> 
> Cuz we have a panel about Jiraiya in sage mode w/o toad oil or toads. And Fukasaku praises him as his trainee.



Addressed earlier.



> Context matters.



It does, so start using it.

@WorldsStrongest @Ishmael 

Now they've decided to make up a different form of Sage Mode.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> if you agree that, then you can't limit him to the same boost, feats contradict that, and using multipliers to determine key components of an argument doesn't sound right to begin with.


I can state my opinion on anything I want to state my opinion on. If you have a different opinion that’s fine man. It’s just people like Munboy claiming it’s been stated as fact that Naruto Sage Mode offers a greater boost that I have a problem with; as that’s a straight lie.

As far as my opinion goes Jiraiya Sage Mode is suppose to be more advanced then CS yet we see the same x10 boost. So personally I believe that the boot isn’t what’s being increased between these Senjutsu buffs but rather someone’s mastery of the Sage Arts


----------



## Soul (Apr 20, 2019)

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian Turrin wants a scan SAYING IT.
You can't provide it because it doesn't exist. Hope you are at least having fun with the debate.



Turrin said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian  claims there is a statement in the manga that directly says that Naruto SM offers a greater boost then Jiraiya to all attributes and says it’s a greater then x10 boost.



There isn't a scan like you are asking about but it can be inferred from the manga that Sage Mode gives a substantial boost on most base stats like speed, strength, awareness, etc. No, there is no statement of someone actually saying it's more than a x10 boost.
With that being said...



Turrin said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> You have till the end of the day, then ignore list
> 
> Or you can admit you were lying and stop being this shit up...your choice



What are you trying to accomplish with this Turrin? You sounds childish and petty. I would ask you if you are 12 but you have been posting here for 13 years now.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There was also Jizz, a rapid Sasuke fan, and Sujee, a bigger Itachi fan than all the fan girls and that guy in Russia who killed himself because Itachi died in the anime (bear in mind the chapters where Itachi was revived were released). The list goes on.



Jizz purposely posted like was borderline retarded though.



Zembie said:


> I gotta applaud you for even debating at this point. You're strong willed that's for sure.



Munboy is just as stubborn as Turrin.
Nothing to applaud here.



FoboBemo said:


> Will @Munboy Dracule O'Brian  deliver the statement?!
> Will @Turrin even accept the statement?!
> 
> Is SM=CS?!
> ...



Great OC right here.
Also go outside. I hear it's nice sometimes.



Turrin said:


> I have room on my ignore list for another.



Please be trolling.


----------



## kokodeshide (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. Nikushimi who said he got a migraine and was emotionally fucked because I said Sasuke>Itachi


I REMEMBER this.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> guy in Russia who killed himself because Itachi died in the anime (bear in mind the chapters where Itachi was revived were released).


May that ultra weeb rest in peace.


Zembie said:


> Not my problem Turrin can't take criticism


To be fair to Turrin, he can take ALOT of shit, and does so regularly.



Zembie said:


> or any other POV except for his


This is true though lol.

@Turrin 
What do you think about the fact that Naruto has a weaker base form but at the very least equal to higher SM form? That is basically proof enough that Narutos sage mode is stronger.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Apr 20, 2019)

Trash retort here


Turrin said:


> 1. Being a better sage doesn’t mean having a greater boost.


Yes it does

Being a better Sage means being better at EVERY ASPECT OF SAGE MODE due to havinga BETTER VERSION OF SAHE MODE and being BETTER AT USING NE ENTIRELY

You are bending over backwards to cherry pick and force conjecture in favor of canon fact


Turrin said:


> 2. Naruto being a better combatant doesn’t mean he has a large boost from Sage Mode


Yes

Yes it does

Naruto having an inferior base, but being superior in Sm, means the boost he gets from SM is larger than the boost jiraiya gets from his

End of story

Simple math kiddo

Base Jiraiya = 10
Base Naruto = 5
SM Jiraiya = 10X
Sm Naruto = 5Y

But, we KNOW that SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya...Therefore, regardless of the values given, we KNOW that Y NEEDS TO BE > X

This is literally grade school level problem solving and it is whooshing you


Turrin said:


> 3. Sensing is a product of Frog Fu and yeah he might be better then Jiraiya at this. But this irrelevant to how much of a boost his Sage Mode gives him in comparison to Jiraiya


Sensing is not an aspect of Frog Fu...What are you talking about?

And no

Naruto blatantly gets more out of SM than Jiraiya does...His better sensory ability and use of Frog Fu is proof of that.


Turrin said:


> 4. He doesn’t; both have slapped boss summon sized creatures; the limits of both haven’t been tested


He does


Jiraiya landed a direct fucking KICK to a Paths face, and did next to nothing to it and it keeps fighting no diff
Naruto MISSED a Path with a punch and still had enough force to FUCKING KILL IT

Naruto tags Deva path, the most powerful path, with a kick that Deva blocks and still gets sent flying
Jiraiya tags Human path with a blindside punch, Human no diff blocks it with one hand
Thats direct proof of Narutos striking strength FAR exceeding Jiraiyas

Jiraiya also didnt throw that boss sized creature...He used some form of Jutsu or explosion. No fucking punch or kick carves tunnels through concrete like that. Jiraiya was also not anywhere near the Summon when it was sent flying...He walks toward the summon from FAR inside the wall after it happens. Ergo, he used a ranged attack of some kind.

And even IF you believe it was with a physical attack...Even tho there is literally no way he could have physically reached the summon, but whatever. Narutos feat is still WAY more impressive, as he through the summon MUCH farther.


Turrin said:


> 5. Naruto Base being inferior is irrelevant


No its not

And the fact you think it is is real sad

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Soul (Apr 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> @Turrin
> What do you think about the fact that Naruto has a weaker base form but at the very least equal to higher SM form? That is basically proof enough that Narutos sage mode is stronger.



You don't get it.
The manga needs to say +x10 otherwise it won't matter for him.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Soul said:


> There isn't a scan like you are asking about but it can be inferred from the manga that Sage Mode gives a substantial boost on most base stats like speed, strength, awareness, etc. No, there is no statement of someone actually saying it's more than a x10 boost.
> With that .


What I’d like to accomplish is to get a once good poster to realize he shouldn’t go around lying about a statement. You can say it’s childish but the guys been following me around quoting my posts and off topic referencing this statement for months now. I could have just ignore list him and maybe that would have been better but I did used to like discussing things with Munboy so I didn’t want to do that. After explaining to him multiple times my stance and how the statement doesn’t exist, this has become my only option. 

As far as Sage Mode goes we know Jiraiya gives around a x10 boost; and we know CS does the same. So right there we have an example of a more advanced Sage still gaining the same stat boost. So I don’t see why a more advanced Sage Naruto would necessarily get a bigger stat boost ether. It seems like to me the stat boosts are the same, but their skill with Sage Arts increase. 

If you disagree fine, just don’t follow me around for a month quoting every post I make that isn’t even about this talking about how I’m not reading the “manga statement” that says Naruto Sage Mode offers a greater boost, which straight doesn’t exist. 

I think I’m being pretty fair considering the circumstances.


----------



## Ishmael (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I was thinking about mentioning you as. One of the best debaters, this is disappointing man



It is what it is... man like I said I have no personal issue with you, you got good points but you're ignoring what munboy is presenting.


----------



## kokodeshide (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> As far as Sage Mode goes we know Jiraiya gives around a x10 boost


Where does it say that?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

@kokodeshide

Base IA Naruto has always had greater Raw Power then Jiraiya. His chakra is much higher allowing him to pull off moves like FRS; Clone Spamming, and Rasengan Barrage. Base Jiraiya is better because greater experience and versatility allows him to make better use of their Toad Summons. Take away summons and Base IA Naruto wins. Against an enemy like Pain in a direct fight summons matter less, so it comes down to the individual. So Naruto will perform better because he’s got more Raw Power in a direct struggle like that. Especially when you add on that his superior skill in Sage Arts allows him to achieve Sage Mode faster and potentially also gives him better command of Sage Art Frog Fu. 

And did Naruto really ever do better then Jiraiya against Pain due to being way stronger or faster; no he didn’t. He did better due to Ghost Punches which speaks to him potentially having higher skill in Sage Arts (not boosting) and him having greater raw power IE him being able to use FRS and Clones; something which he already outdoes Jiraiya in Base


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Where does it say that?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 20, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> It is what it is... man like I said I have no personal issue with you, you got good points but you're ignoring what munboy is presenting.


Here I’ll explain it to you. Munboy keeps asserting that he has a statement that says Naruto Sage Mode offers greater boosts then Jiraiya and greater then x10. But all he points back to are statements that say Naruto is a better Sage. Someone can be a better Sage though without getting a bigger boost. Case and point CS offers the same x10 boost as Jiraiya SM, despite him being a better Sage (well him even being a Sage). So being a better Sage can have impact elsewhere like higher skill at Sage Arts. I’ve explained this to Munboy over a dozen times and he keeps just quoting me and saying read the manga because it’s stated that Naruto Sage Mode gives a bigger boost. When that’s a lie.

It’s not me ignoring Munboy it’s me not tolerating a lie


----------



## JuicyG (Apr 20, 2019)

Jiraiya's lack of mastery comes from his inability to access Sage Mode on his own. That was stated. And he gets the toad features because he is not a master. I don't recall Jiraiya ever to be stated to be have an inferior Sage Mode in any other terms other than his inability to access it like the others and not being able to completely balance the NE as well having to use Senpō: Ryōsei no Jutsu. For example Jiraiya is still listed in the Databooks as a user of Frog Kata, as is Minato. Naruto is simply a stronger character than Jiraiya at further points in the series.

Not a master = Toad Features and lack ability to self access

Master = No toad features and can access on their own


----------



## Trojan (Apr 20, 2019)

Omote said:


> The same way he misunderstands Tobirama's power in general


he is really amazing if you think about it... of how wrong he can get...




JuicyG said:


> Jiraiya's lack of mastery comes from his inability to access Sage Mode on his own. That was stated. And he gets the toad features because he is not a master. I don't recall Jiraiya ever to be stated to be have an inferior Sage Mode in any other terms other than his inability to access it like the others and not being able to completely balance the NE as well having to use Senpō: Ryōsei no Jutsu. For example Jiraiya is still listed in the Databooks as a user of Frog Kata, as is Minato. Naruto is simply a stronger character than Jiraiya at further points in the series.
> 
> Not a master = Toad Features and lack ability to self access
> 
> Master = No toad features and can access on their own


regardless of Jman's condition

I think it's amazing how people say "Jman gets frog features. Therefore, he is not a perfect SM user"
at the same time "Kabuto gets snake-like features such as the horns, but he is a perfect SM user"


----------



## JuicyG (Apr 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he is really amazing if you think about it... of how wrong he can get...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting take never considered that with Kabuto. More inconsistencies I suppose


----------



## Symmetry (Apr 20, 2019)

Francyst said:


> Tbh I'm curious too. I keep seeing Naruto benefits more from SM and that Jiraiya doesn't have danger sense but I never see any proof




SM naruto blitzes the asura  path but SM jiriya gets blitzed by the asura  path


----------



## kokodeshide (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Base IA Naruto has always had greater Raw Power then Jiraiya. His chakra is much higher allowing him to pull off moves like FRS; Clone Spamming, and Rasengan Barrage.


Chakra reserves dont equal power though. naruto has ALWAYS had greater chakra reserves than pretty much everyone. His base stats dont exceed jiraiyas though Jiraiya Is comparable to Orochimaru in base. Naruto is no where near that in base, Maybe he is in KN0, not base though



Turrin said:


> Base Jiraiya is better because greater experience and versatility allows him to make better use of their Toad Summons. Take away summons and Base IA Naruto wins.


, I doubt it, they both can use rasengan. Base Naruto either doesnt use FRS or cant, cause he was in KN0 when he used it VS kakuzu. And they clones are fodder for Jiraiyas hair jutsu and Yomi Numa.




Turrin said:


> Especially when you add on that his superior skill in Sage Arts allows him to achieve Sage Mode faster and potentially also gives him better command of Sage Art Frog Fu.


IDK about achieving SM faster, but Jiraiyas better CQC ability should make him the better CQC fighter.


Turrin said:


> And did Naruto really ever do better then Jiraiya against Pain due to being way stronger or faster; no he didn’t. He did better due to Ghost Punches which speaks to him potentially having higher skill in Sage Arts (not boosting) and him having greater raw power IE him being able to use FRS and Clones; something which he already outdoes Jiraiya in Base


You have a fair point here, except for WTF blitzing Asura and also whipping the rhino into the sky.

That just says that Jutsu is 10 times stronger, That doesnt mean HE is 10x stronger. Look at rasengan to rasengan, its like night and day in terms of power he is able to output.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 20, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Tbh I'm curious now too and munboy is yet to deliver..


it's a no brainer. Turrin is just being a fool tbh.

Naruto's SM is superior to Jman's SM. Since it's a power-up mode, it being superior only means it gives more power to the user.

It's no different than how BM is superior to KCM, and thus gives more chakra, speed, power...etc.


----------



## Speedyamell (Apr 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it's a no brainer. Turrin is just being a fool tbh.
> 
> Naruto's SM is superior to Jman's SM. Since it's a power-up mode, it being superior only means it gives more power to the user.
> 
> It's no different than how BM is superior to KCM, and thus gives more chakra, speed, power...etc.


I think the issue here is the difference between better and stronger. We know Naruto is a better sm user meaning he can utilize it better I guess.. but is he necessarily a stronger one? In the sense that he somehow has more powerful nature chakra? Or can amass more? I don't think so..


----------



## Trojan (Apr 20, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> I think the issue here is the difference between better and stronger. We know Naruto is a better sm user meaning he can utilize it better I guess.. but is he necessarily a stronger one? In the sense that he somehow has more powerful nature chakra? Or can amass more? I don't think so..


it is. Because that's all SM is about. Getting more chakra and balancing it out. 
There is no other factor to it.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Why do I have 20+ notifications for this thread. 



Turrin said:


> Are you going to also claim that Fusaku saying Naruto is a better Sage is the same thing as his Sage Mode boosting him more?



That's what everyone without a Jiraiya bias will infer.



> I have room on my ignore list for another.
> 
> I have zero tolerance for people saying a statement says one thing when it doesn’t. Want to say that’s your interpretation that’s fine though.



Ignore everyone who disproves you, it clearly sounds like you need a NF safe space.



Hussain said:


> Lol, why do u want him to remove me?
> 
> The way it is is not too bad, since he can’t see my posts and therefore can’t reply to me I don’t have to go into an endless debate with him



This is why I am looking forward to going in his ignore list seeing. As we've seen ITT, it isn't like he'll actually read what I give him. 



Turrin said:


> I can state my opinion on anything I want to state my opinion on. If you have a different opinion that’s fine man. It’s just people like Munboy claiming it’s been stated as fact that Naruto Sage Mode offers a greater boost that I have a problem with; as that’s a straight lie.
> 
> As far as my opinion goes Jiraiya Sage Mode is suppose to be more advanced then CS yet we see the same x10 boost. So personally I believe that the boot isn’t what’s being increased between these Senjutsu buffs but rather someone’s mastery of the Sage Arts



I give you facts and feats which you dismiss and give us information you've misunderstood and made up... wut? 



Soul said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian Turrin wants a scan SAYING IT.
> You can't provide it because it doesn't exist. Hope you are at least having fun with the debate.



He can't even read his own "evidence" where Jiraiya's SM was shown to be >10x boost. I've given him statements where it is said Naruto is a better Sage, I've cited Kabuto who made a big deal about being a perfect Sage over one that isn't perfect. I gave him multiple feats illustrating Naruto's SM boost is superior.

Back then, he ignores all that and runs with his headcanon that Naruto's superior feats and the accompanying statements are due to Naruto's chakra capacity (he's purposely being dishonest by using the eligibility to obtain SM to say it links to Senjutsu potency). Now, as you can see ITT he literally just ignores what he's told.



> Jizz purposely posted like was borderline retarded though.



Lately I'm seeing parallels with Turrin's conduct and that of Jizz's. 



> Munboy is just as stubborn as Turrin.
> Nothing to applaud here.



Key difference: I don't need do ignore points and distort manga context with my points. In fact, I've come a long way since 07, now I'm more selective with which posters are worth my time i.e. how I deduced that nowadays it isn't worth getting in a lengthy debate with Turrin. 



kokodeshide said:


> @Turrin
> What do you think about the fact that Naruto has a weaker base form but at the very least equal to higher SM form? That is basically proof enough that Narutos sage mode is stronger.



He'll either ignore you or say its because Naruto has a greater chakra capacity.



Soul said:


> You don't get it.
> The manga needs to say +x10 otherwise it won't matter for him.



The manga doesn't even say that Jiraiya's SM is 10x, he got that from the databook from a jutsu used by SM Jiraiya not Naruto... He's being dishonest and is fully aware of it.



Turrin said:


> What I’d like to accomplish is to get a once good poster to realize he shouldn’t go around lying about a statement. You can say it’s childish but the guys been following me around quoting my posts and off topic referencing this statement for months now. I could have just ignore list him and maybe that would have been better but I did used to like discussing things with Munboy so I didn’t want to do that. After explaining to him multiple times my stance and how the statement doesn’t exist, this has become my only option.



You've been shown every feat and statement which even ITT you're choosing to ignore, there's no sympathy. Especially when you're counterarguments ITT are really low quality and don't adequately address the points against your "stance".



> As far as Sage Mode goes we know Jiraiya gives around a x10 boost; and we know CS does the same. So right there we have an example of a more advanced Sage still gaining the same stat boost. So I don’t see why a more advanced Sage Naruto would necessarily get a bigger stat boost ether. It seems like to me the stat boosts are the same, but their skill with Sage Arts increase.



So in your mind Naruto being a better Sage by _mastering Senjutsu _which Fuksaku said Jiraiya did not master isn't something worth considering? I like how you're running with this yet consistently ignoring Jiraiya's teacher saying Jiraiya didn't even master the mode... What's more laughable is that you don't think mastery of the form provides a greater boost than its unmastered counterpart. Its like saying KCMv1 = KCMv2. 



> If you disagree fine, just don’t follow me around for a month quoting every post I make that isn’t even about this talking about how I’m not reading the “manga statement” that says Naruto Sage Mode offers a greater boost, which straight doesn’t exist.
> 
> I think I’m being pretty fair considering the circumstances.



No, you look silly especially when you're ignoring the points I presented.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Here I’ll explain it to you. Munboy keeps asserting that he has a statement that says Naruto Sage Mode offers greater boosts then Jiraiya and greater then x10. But all he points back to are statements that say Naruto is a better Sage. Someone can be a better Sage though without getting a bigger boost. Case and point CS offers the same x10 boost as Jiraiya SM, despite him being a better Sage (well him even being a Sage). So being a better Sage can have impact elsewhere like higher skill at Sage Arts. I’ve explained this to Munboy over a dozen times and he keeps just quoting me and saying read the manga because it’s stated that Naruto Sage Mode gives a bigger boost. When that’s a lie.
> 
> It’s not me ignoring Munboy it’s me not tolerating a lie



When you refuse to address the points I provided, that's you ignoring the points I provided. And you _are _being dishonest. I never said there was a statement, I said you blatantly ignored the manga if you say that Naruto and Jiraiya get the same boosts with SM for reasons I've given you - ITT and posts you ignored - and reasons other posters have given you.



Hussain said:


> Am I reading this wrong, or does this page says
> "the flames are *MORE* than 10 times..."
> 
> 
> how did Turrin understand "more than 10 times" as "it's exactly 10 times"?



Its the same reason why Turrin doesn't believe Naruto has a better boost in SM despite mastering the mode (when Jiraiya couldn't) and showing better feats. And how his brain processed "if you think Jiraiya and Naruto get the same boost, you've not read the manga" as "there is a statement saying perfect SM provides a >10x than imperfect ones".

The ironic thing, he's not using the manga either.




King1 said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian what did you do to turrin that he had to make a thread about you



All I said was Jiraiya's SM doesn't provide the same boost as Naruto's.




Speedyamell said:


> Tbh I'm curious now too and munboy is yet to deliver..



You mean apart from the 3 posts containing the arguments I'd use -- which Turrin ignored back then -- that I continually cited ITT; the very same arguments multiple people are using against him ITT?



Hussain said:


> it's a no brainer. Turrin is just being a fool tbh.
> 
> Naruto's SM is superior to Jman's SM. Since it's a power-up mode, it being superior only means it gives more power to the user.
> 
> It's no different than how BM is superior to KCM, and thus gives more chakra, speed, power...etc.



I'd have to agree. I mean, it takes a special kind of poster to ask for an argument, then ignores the counterpoints. Then asks for manga statements for a stance disproving his when his own stance doesn't use the manga and ignores it ("Jiraiya didn't master this").

I'm so glad Naruto got BM/KCMv2 after KCMv1, otherwise Turrin would be here saying they provide the same power boost.



Speedyamell said:


> I think the issue here is the difference between better and stronger. We know Naruto is a better sm user meaning he can utilize it better I guess.. but is he necessarily a stronger one? In the sense that he somehow has more powerful nature chakra? Or can amass more? I don't think so..



Fukasaku outright said Jiraiya did not master Sage Mode; Naruto did. Kabuto made a huge deal about him being a perfect Sage, unlike Oro. There is clearly a power difference, see the posts Turrin can't address:








Also think about the way you're presenting this. How can Naruto use SM better than Jiraiya who didn't master SM? Mastering it.

Seriously ask yourself, how can Naruto who mastered SM _*not *_have a stronger SM than Jiraiya who the manga said _did not _master it. And don't buy that rubbish @JuicyG is running with saying the "lack of mastery is due to Jiraiya not entering it on his own". The feats clearly show Naruto has a better SM; within those links are common scenarios Naruto and Jiraiya faced which illustrate this.

To assume Naruto and Jiraiya get the same boost in power is basically ignoring the manga.



Hussain said:


> what type of quoting is that?
> 
> negged



A mistyped square bracket in light of all these mountains of text.


Saying Jiraiya's unmastered SM is equal to Naruto's SM is no different to saying an incomplete FRS has the same power as a completed FRS.

I still cannot believe this is 2019 and I have to explain to Turrin why an unmastered SM is inferior to a mastered SM.



To address the Kabuto point, @JuicyG and @Hussain Kabuto said he was a perfect Sage indicating he mastered SM. The guy who helped Jiraiya use SM -- Fukasaku -- said Jiraiya did not master the mode.

That's you're differing factor, the manga literally went out of its way to say Jiraiya did not master it. Why am I having to spell this 10 years after Naruto used SM in battle for the first time?


----------



## Trojan (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> To address the Kabuto point, @JuicyG and @Hussain Kabuto said he was a perfect Sage indicating he mastered SM. The guy who helped Jiraiya use SM -- Fukasaku -- said Jiraiya did not master the mode.


Well, based on what we know about SM, he was simply wrong. 
he is the same guy who thought he is the closest to Hagu's power, and we know how that turned out to be...


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Well, based on what we know about SM, he was simply wrong.
> he is the same guy who thought he is the closest to Hagu's power, and we know how that turned out to be...



Why would Kabuto be wrong about perfecting Sage Mode? He actually did perfect it though, which is why he said he did. He compared his Senjutsu to Orochimaru's. Even Mitsuki perfected Sage Mode has those horns.

Maybe a nod to the dragon representation, I don't know.


Either way, Kabuto did perfect SM. Understandably this will annoy Jiraiya fans seeing as he would be the only imperfect Sage. Or you can pull a Turrin and pretend Jiraiya is a perfect Sage. But that brings us to scenarios like the one ITT.

As for why he thought he was closest to Hagoromo, it was because he considered the power of all his Edos to be his power like Itachi said. I.E. in Kabuto's mind he had mastered Senjutsu and had all the abilities of Edo Madara. At that point in time, a lot of people would assume Edo Madara with Senjutsu would be the closest thing to Hagoromo, until Juubito came into the picture.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would Kabuto be wrong about perfecting Sage Mode? He actually did perfect it though, which is why he said he did.
> 
> As for why he thought he was closest to Hagoromo, it was because he considered the power of all his Edos to be his power like Itachi said. I.E. in Kabuto's mind he had mastered Senjutsu and had all the abilities of Edo Madara. At that point in time, a lot of people would assume Edo Madara with Senjutsu would be the closest thing to Hagoromo, until Juubito came into the picture.



Because he has extra features when he uses SM (the horns). We know that a perfect SM user does not have those extra things.
We have seen Naruto, he does not have any extra thing.
We have seen Hashirama, and he also does not have any extra things.

Kabuto does have the horns which are a sign of imperfect SM as we were told. Perhaps the difference is not that big so he considered it "perfect" 

- Even with all of the ET power, he is nowhere near as powerful as Hagu tho. 
Heck, we have seen Hago being able to make the ET disappear as he did to the Edo Hokage.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Because he has extra features when he uses SM (the horns). We know that a perfect SM user does not have those extra things.
> We have seen Naruto, he does not have any extra thing.
> We have seen Hashirama, and he also does not have any extra things.



We know the criteria is the Sage Markings. It seems _where _Sage Mode is learnt plays a part as clearly Hashirama, Naruto and Kabuto have different ones despite perfecting the mode. It seems to be the opposite for Ryuchi Cave, Oro has no animal features yet Kabuto seems to have what you can argue are dragon horns. He compared himself to Oro's imperfect Sage-ness, we're meant to take that as Kabuto's mastered the mode. 



> Kabuto does have the horns which are a sign of imperfect SM as we were told. Perhaps the difference is not that big so he considered it "perfect"



What we were told was that _toad features _were a sign of a imperfect SM. Kabuto seemed to tell us that Oro's "featureless" Sage power was an indication of Ryuchi Cave's imperfect SM.



> - Even with all of the ET power, he is nowhere near as powerful as Hagu tho.
> Heck, we have seen Hago being able to make the ET disappear as he did to the Edo Hokage.



He never said he was as powerful as Hagoromo, he said he was the _closest _to Hagoromo's power. I.E. he believed he was stronger than everyone else because he possessed powers Hagoromo had. Of course, we are aware the difference was huge.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Turrin, why have you left out the fact that you think SPSM is also bound by this 10x multiplier?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Trojan (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know the criteria is the Sage Markings. It seems _where _Sage Mode is learnt plays a part as clearly Hashirama, Naruto and Kabuto have different ones despite perfecting the mode. It seems to be the opposite for Ryuchi Cave, Oro has no animal features yet Kabuto seems to have what you can argue are dragon horns. He compared himself to Oro's imperfect Sage-ness, we're meant to take that as Kabuto's mastered the mode.


they learned it from different locations, but the outcome is the same for all of them.
otherwise, even learning it from the frogs can give you "animal-like" features. Based on your logic, then Jman should also be considered as a perfect SM user. 

Oro was never able to learn SM in the first place, so I am not sure why are you bringing him up. 
The best Oro was able to obtain is the CS from Jugo which is a form of natural energy as well...



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What we were told was that _toad features _were a sign of a imperfect SM. Kabuto seemed to tell us that Oro's "featureless" Sage power was an indication of Ryuchi Cave's imperfect SM.


Again, Oro was never able to achieve SM. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He never said he was as powerful as Hagoromo, he said he was the _closest _to Hagoromo's power. I.E. he believed he was stronger than everyone else because he possessed powers Hagoromo had. Of course, we are aware the difference was huge.


But he was not close, that's the point. His statement implies that he was, but he wasn't...


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> they learned it from different locations, but the outcome is the same for all of them.
> otherwise, even learning it from the frogs can give you "animal-like" features. Based on your logic, then Jman should also be considered as a perfect SM user.
> 
> Oro was never able to learn SM in the first place, so I am not sure why are you bringing him up.
> The best Oro was able to obtain is the CS from Jugo which is a form of natural energy as well...



Why would the outcome be the same for all of them? Naruto and Minato got the exact same markings for mastering SM from Myoboku Mountain. Hashirama had different markings altogether with different eyes compared to Naruto and Minato. Kabuto has horns and darkened sclera along with totally different eyes.

Each Sage Mode "place" has its own mark of mastery, evidently. Jiraiya's own teacher said that he didn't master SM. Kabuto said he mastered SM, and Oro was looking for a suitable body (using the CS) to find a body which could help him master Senjutsu. 

You're making the mistake by generalising Myouboku Mountain's definition to all the others. 

Oro did have the use of Senjutsu chakra, he was even giving it to others via the CS. You cannot use Senjutsu chakra unless you have Sage Mode/power.




> But he was not close, that's the point. His statement implies that he was, but he wasn't...



He never said he was close i.e. he was inches away from having Hagoromo's power. He said he was the _closest _to it i.e. closer than anyone alive in that moment in time.


----------



## Speedyamell (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Saying Jiraiya's unmastered SM is equal to Naruto's SM is no different to saying an incomplete FRS has the same power as a completed FRS.
> 
> I still cannot believe this is 2019 and I have to explain to Turrin why an unmastered SM is inferior to a mastered SM.
> 
> ...


There's absolutely no doubt that Naruto's is superior.
But the power aspect I believe is where trouble lies..
do you think Sm Naruto's Cho odama rasengan would be larger/more powerful than jiraiya's for instance?


----------



## Zembie (Apr 20, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> There's absolutely no doubt that Naruto's is superior.
> But the power aspect I believe is where trouble lies..
> do you think Sm Naruto's Cho odama rasengan would be larger/more powerful than jiraiya's for instance?


Possible, since Naruto has a lot more chakra to spare.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would the outcome be the same for all of them? Naruto and Minato got the exact same markings for mastering SM from Myoboku Mountain. Hashirama had different markings altogether with different eyes compared to Naruto and Minato. Kabuto has horns and darkened sclera along with totally different eyes.
> 
> Each Sage Mode "place" has its own mark of mastery, evidently. Jiraiya's own teacher said that he didn't master SM. Kabuto said he mastered SM, and Oro was looking for a suitable body (using the CS) to find a body which could help him master Senjutsu.
> 
> ...



because it's the same jutsu?  
I am not talking about the design of the marking, I am talking about animal-like features. Yes, Hashirama different marking but he does NOT have additional horns or fins...etc  



> and Oro was looking for a suitable body (using the CS) to find a body which could help him master Senjutsu.


ye tried, but he did not find anybody nor was he able to get SM.  

- the definition is the same for all. The MARKING might be different, but that's it. 



> Oro did have the use of Senjutsu chakra, he was even giving it to others via the CS. You cannot use Senjutsu chakra unless you have Sage Mode/power


Yes, I said that Oro has the CS power. He does not have SM as in the one used by Naruto, Minato, Hash...etc 
it's the one used by Sasuke, Jugo, Sound 4...etc



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He never said he was close i.e. he was inches away from having Hagoromo's power. He said he was the _closest _to it i.e. closer than anyone alive in that moment in time.


that implies closeness tho. What's the point of bringing that up if you are nowhere close to the target as well? 


Imagine part 1 Konohamaro trying to show his power by saying "I am the closest one to Hashi's power" for example, compared to his classmates, what's the point of bringing someone that you know that you are nowhere near his/her power?


----------



## Speedyamell (Apr 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Possible, since Naruto has a lot more chakra to spare.


I think I'm starting to confuse myself 
Either way @Munboy Dracule O'Brian 
My two cents on the matter is, yes, Sm naruto > Sm jiraiya. But not because naruto "has a better sage mode" but rather because he is a better sage/senjutsu user. If that makes any sense..


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> There's absolutely no doubt that Naruto's is superior.
> But the power aspect I believe is where trouble lies..
> do you think Sm Naruto's Cho odama rasengan would be larger/more powerful than jiraiya's for instance?





Zembie said:


> Possible, since Naruto has a lot more chakra to spare.



It is larger ergo more powerful. I showed how it is larger in the second link (IIRC) that Turrin refuses to address.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Zembie (Apr 20, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> I think I'm starting to confuse myself
> Either way @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> My two cents on the matter is, yes, Sm naruto > Sm jiraiya. But not because naruto "has a better sage mode" but rather because he is a better sage/senjutsu user. If that makes any sense..


That's fine, tho not every SM is created equal, hopefully we can agree on that one.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> because it's the same jutsu?
> I am not talking about the design of the marking, I am talking about animal-like features. Yes, Hashirama different marking but he does NOT have additional horns or fins...etc



I know, it makes no sense. However, because Minato showed the exact same markings Naruto did with SM mastery, that automatically tells us that the signs of mastery are different for each place. Hashirama has different eyes altogether. In Ryuchi Cave, the horns seem to indicate mastery, why, who knows. Maybe it has to do with the fact the snake sage bites the prospective sage and injects them with NE.





> ye tried, but he did not find anybody nor was he able to get SM.
> 
> - the definition is the same for all. The MARKING might be different, but that's it.



How can he use Senjutsu chakra without Sage Mode? According to Fukasaku, the only way to use Senjutsu is with Sage Mode.



> Yes, I said that Oro has the CS power. He does not have SM as in the one used by Naruto, Minato, Hash...etc
> it's the one used by Sasuke, Jugo, Sound 4...etc



Juugo's is a different case, as Kabuto told us. However, Kabuto called Orochimaru a Sage, so we have to assume he's a Sage especially if he can create and use his own Senjutsu chakra. He gives the CS (his Senjutsu chakra); he creates that Senjutsu chakra; he needs to be a Sage to create Senjutsu chakra.




> that implies closeness tho. What's the point of bringing that up if you are nowhere close to the target as well?
> 
> 
> Imagine part 1 Konohamaro trying to show his power by saying "I am the closest one to Hashi's power" for example, compared to his classmates, what's the point of bringing someone that you know that you are nowhere near his/her power?



In correct, Kabuto's wording implied he was the closest being alive to Hagoromo's power, not he was literally close to Hagoromo's power. Notice the difference between Kabuto's wording and the wording Hagoromo used to say Madara was close to his power.



Speedyamell said:


> I think I'm starting to confuse myself
> Either way @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> My two cents on the matter is, yes, Sm naruto > Sm jiraiya. But not because naruto "has a better sage mode" but rather because he is a better sage/senjutsu user. If that makes any sense..



What about the fact that Naruto mastered SM and Jiraiya did not? Doesn't that in-itself say Naruto's SM is better/stronger?

*-snip-*


----------



## ShinAkuma (Apr 21, 2019)

Being a better sage is not an indicator of power level.

Naruto is a better sage, and he might be more powerful, but Naruto's proficiency with sage mode is not the determining factor on the power level.


----------



## hbcaptain (Apr 21, 2019)

Jiraya didn't have sage perception back then because of plot as Kishi certainly didnt tought about it yet. When we look at 3rd Databook's description, it makes sens as SM was nothing more than a stat booster back then and there was no mention to danger sensing.
Yet, in DB4, we learnt that Jiraya has Kawazu Kumite and danger sensing as well, so for me the answer is pretty clear.

Also, let's not forget that the manga is not consistant and there was some scenes in which the author forgot that some characters have this abilities (Naruto not recognizing Kakashi when he used Susano'o to grab Sakura, Madara being blindsided by BZ despite having a irrealistically strong SM, etc).

However, I agree about Naruto's SM being > Jiraya's, and this superiority is obviously in terms of strengh, otherwise why the hell trying to balance the 3 energies, because it make the use look cooler ?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Being a better sage is not an indicator of power level.



Naruto is a better sage, and he might be more powerful, but Naruto's proficiency with sage mode is not the determining factor on the power level.[/QUOTE]

Except for the face he surpassed Jiraiya and did exceptionally better in common scenarios? What is the determining factor? And do you really think Naruto and Jiraiya's SM provide exactly the same level of power boosts when one mastered the mode and the other did not?




hbcaptain said:


> Jiraya didn't have sage perception back then because of plot as Kishi certainly didnt tought about it yet. When we look at 3rd Databook's description, it makes sens as SM was nothing more than a stat booster back then and there was no mention to danger sensing.
> Yet, in DB4, we learnt that Jiraya has Kawazu Kumite and danger sensing as well, so for me the answer is pretty clear.



Jiraiya _did _have sage perception back then, that's how he effortlessly blinded Human Realm, and it is natural he has Kawazu Kumite. We're all on the same page here. Where Turrin loses the plot is by thinking Naruto has those abilities on the same level as Naruto... ghost punches and danger sensing which lets him keep up with the Raikage and one that's more reliable.



> Also, let's not forget that the manga is not consistant and there was some scenes in which the author forgot that some characters have this abilities (Naruto not recognizing Kakashi when he used Susano'o to grab Sakura, Madara being blindsided by BZ despite having a irrealistically strong SM, etc).



Those can be explained. Sensing a character's chakra signature is something that usually has to be consciously as we've seen many times in the manga. Madara may've sensed BZ, but didn't expect to be betrayed; a better example with Madara was how his Gedodama didn't return to him after stabbing Sakura.



> However, I agree about Naruto's SM being > Jiraya's, and this superiority is obviously in terms of strengh, otherwise why the hell trying to balance the 3 energies, because it make the use look cooler ?



Exactly.

On top of that, why would Fukasaku throw it out there that Jiraiya didn't master it? If unmastered SM = SM, then there'd be no point in bothering to have Naruto master the mode. In fact, there'd be no point in making every Sage Mode user after the arc a SM master.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 21, 2019)

There probably isn't a huge difference in the boost they receive so much as what they can do with that boost.

Fukusaku directly states that Jiraiya was one of the  at it, and isn't even  Naruto having a better appearance made him surpass Jiraiya as a sage. 

They aren't that far apart in their base forms imho and it's what Naruto does with SM that sets him apart in a lot of ways.

Strength: Naruto has better SM strength feats, but he also had way better strength feats to start with.
The dude is a pretty dang strong according to Deidara who ate a punch from him and has been shown shattering stone with his base strength even after being drained of his chakra and weakened.
If he is getting magnified by even a similar amount he would be massively stronger in SM than J man.
Since we are all doing numbers 
J man 5 str x 10 would be 50
Naruto 8 Str × 10 would be 80
A small gap becomes a big one when multiplied.

Combine that with his better Taijutsu skill and the difference and it's source becomes even more clear.

Jutsu: Naruto's jutsu are stronger than Jiraiya's in base and well. 

Rasenshruiken and even Oodama Rasengan would trash almost everything Jiraiya has with little diff and plow through Jiraiya as well.

While Jiraiya also uses feints to land his Naruto uses clone feints on a whole other level than anyone else and has a higher chance of landing stronger jutsu than Jiraiya does and even has the same summons to help him do it. 



So I'd agree that he probably doesn't get that much different of a boost, it's just what he can do with that boost is much greater than what Jiraiya can do imho.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Turrin (Apr 21, 2019)

So no statement or admission of lying , okay unfortunately to my ignore list you go Munboy

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## hbcaptain (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sensing a character's chakra signature is something that usually has to be consciously as we've seen many times in the manga


regular sensing =/= sage sensing, sage sensing is a passive ability and it's in most if not all cases "way" better than regular sensing.


----------



## Sufex (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So no statement or admission of lying , okay unfortunately to my ignore list you go Munboy


Turrin, do you believe every single sage mode boosts 10 times across the board? If so, why?


----------



## Trojan (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So no statement or admission of lying , okay unfortunately to my ignore list you go Munboy


R.I.P @Munboy Dracule O'Brian it was nice knowing you... 

But then again, we will get to meet each other on the other side...


----------



## Turrin (Apr 21, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Turrin, do you believe every single sage mode boosts 10 times across the board? If so, why?


I believe

CS and Toad SM offer the same boosts

I don’t know about RSM or Mitsuki Senninka SM. As the mechanics behind those are largely unknown

As for why I believe the former two offer the same boost, it’s because a x10 multiplier has been assigned to CS and Jiraiya SM, despite Jiraiya SM being more advanced then CS. So it doesn’t seem like being a more advanced Toad Sage increases the multiplier which is why I don’t think Naruto more “perfected” Toad SM likely offers a greater stat boosts. Also I didn’t not really see any feats that indicate a greater boost for Naruto, just fears that indicate he’s got a large chakra pull then Jiraiya which has always been the case since Base.

Finally Kishimoto didn’t highlight a greater increase ever, instead he focused on Naruto being a better Sage allowing him greater command of the Sage Arts and being able to enter Sage Mode quicker.

Seems to me that mixing chakra with natural energy results in a x10 boost which is true of both CS and Sage Mode. Where the Sages differ from Cs users is that they have control over natural energy and can use Sage Arts to different degrees, while CS users lack this control and can’t use Sage arts

Edit: with that said I understand the opposing view very well and I don’t discount it as an alternative as most of this is opinion based. My beef with Munboy is that he claims the opposing view is fact and lyes about statements supporting that view existing which don’t; and follows you around to other threads that have nothing to do with this topic and out of context quotes you about said statements


----------



## Sufex (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I believe
> 
> CS and Toad SM offer the same boosts
> 
> ...


Do you believe the same is with minato? Then why didnt he think he was good at SM despite being 'perfect' like naruto?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> There probably isn't a huge difference in the boost they receive so much as what they can do with that boost.
> 
> Fukusaku directly states that Jiraiya was one of the  at it, and isn't even  Naruto having a better appearance made him surpass Jiraiya as a sage.
> 
> ...


Basically my thoughts except I don’t think we can quantify whose really better strength wise



FoboBemo said:


> Do you believe the same is with minato? Then why didnt he think he was good at SM despite being 'perfect' like naruto?


In Minato case ether it was a humble Mary Sue moment or the issue with his is duration.

Minato says it takes him a long time to gather natural energy, and when he uses Sage Mode it only lasts for a brief attack against Madara. So maybe if he wanted to use a 5 Min Sage Mode Like Naruto it would take him too long to gather the natural energy for this.

With that said it took him like a millisecond to gather enough for his strike on Madara, so it could just be Minato holding himself to some insane Gary Stu standard when he’s not that good, and he actually is

Like a genius at sports being like basketball isn’t my forte and then sinking 10 baskets in a row but he’s still considers himself not the best because Michael Jordan is better then him. Some bullshit like that

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> regular sensing =/= sage sensing, sage sensing is a passive ability and it's in most if not all cases "way" better than regular sensing.


Passive, but feats show it isn't consistent for Jiraiya as it is for Naruto and other Sages.


FoboBemo said:


> Turrin, do you believe every single sage mode boosts 10 times across the board? If so, why?


He believes it because he since 2009 he hated Naruto surpassing Jiraiya.


Hussain said:


> R.I.P @Munboy Dracule O'Brian it was nice knowing you...
> 
> But then again, we will get to meet each other on the other side...



Yes Hussain!

Now its 1 - 1 for Jiraiya and Itachi fans.

Divin put me on ignore for saying Sasuke had better MS abilities; Turrin did for me say Naruto has better SM abilities.




Hi no Ishi said:


> There probably isn't a huge difference in the boost they receive so much as what they can do with that boost.
> 
> Fukusaku directly states that Jiraiya was one of the  at it, and isn't even  Naruto having a better appearance made him surpass Jiraiya as a sage.
> 
> ...



The posts Turrin ignored point out Naruto gets a superior boost compared to Jiraiya by a large margin.

Also you're cherry picking, you use Fukasaku's "Jiraiya was one of the best" whilst excluding "truthfully speaking  Jiraiya never mastered this"

Now Minato doesn't know his own Senjutsu capabilities and chose to be humble in a very important battle. 

Since 2007, Turrin's mental gymnastics has been very interesting.


----------



## hbcaptain (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Passive, but feats show it isn't consistent for Jiraiya as it is for Naruto and other Sages.


Which means feats are not consistant and that Kishi simply screwed off.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Which means feats are not consistant and that Kishi simply screwed off.



Perfect Sages consistency had good danger sensing. The only inconsistency is Jiraiya, the one who didn't master it.

We have a way to excuse Jiraiya's shortcoming


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Basically my thoughts except I don’t think we can quantify whose really better strength wise


Not with numbers really.

 But Naruto still has drastically better strength feats than most people including Jiraiya while not in SM


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Not with numbers really.
> 
> But Naruto still has drastically better strength feats than most people including Jiraiya while not in SM



Jiraiya pushed Naruto of a cliff with his finger.


----------



## hbcaptain (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Perfect Sages consistency had good danger sensing. The only inconsistency is Jiraiya, the one who didn't master it.


And RSM Naruto and JJ Mads who couldn't detect characters in their blind spot.
So, again the answer is Kishi screwing off.
Jiraya mastered it as stated in the 4th databook.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Turrin (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Not with numbers really.
> 
> But Naruto still has drastically better strength feats than most people including Jiraiya while not in SM


Both slapped boss sized creatures don’t really see how one is better then the other.  And it’s not like we ever saw the limits of Jiraiyas strength


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The posts Turrin ignored point out Naruto gets a superior boost compared to Jiraiya by a large margin.
> 
> Also you're cherry picking, you use Fukasaku's "Jiraiya was one of the best" whilst excluding "truthfully speaking Jiraiya never mastered this"


Like I said, he is better in ways where he was already either better already or on the cusp of it.


And clearly y'all are the cherry pickers since I posted the whole scan and not just a zoomed in panel of half of his comment.

And notice Fukusaku explicitly says he hadn't completely mastered it because he still got frog features and follows that up with "and he was one of the best at it".

So yes even with the frog features he was one of the best at SM. Same reason Minato still calls it Master Jiraiya's Senjutsu. Jiraiya was a benchmark to surpass because he was good at it.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya pushed Naruto of a cliff with his finger.


Which isn't better than shattering a stone statue from a full Nelson lol.


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Basically I come here to discuss or debate match ups. No point to ether if the other person is just going to lie.


There is not really any lie in uncertainty  It was just a perfect excuse for you to drop him into hell (ignore list). I am sure someday when I disagree again with you I would end up there as well.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Both slapped boss sized creatures don’t really see how one is better then the other.  And it’s not like we ever saw the limits of Jiraiyas strength


Actually we have no idea which of the three sages hit the Ram, it was off panel. 
We don't even know if it was a Senjutsu Rasengan.

And we don't technically know the limits of anybody's strength. Doesn't mean we can't look at strength feats.

Isn't that your same reasoning for going against the manga and databook statements saying Minato is faster than Tobirama, if I'm not mistaken?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Actually we have no idea which of the three sages hit the Ram, it was off panel.
> We don't even know if it was a Senjutsu Rasengan.
> 
> And we don't technically know the limits of anybody's strength. Doesn't mean we can't look at strength feats.
> ...


If it was a Rasengan we would have seen signs of it’s damage on the Ram the way we did with the other summons. So it’s unlikely to be that. 

The Manga nor Databook say Minato is faster... so it doesn’t really go against any of those statements 

Anyway; the way I look at feats is if we have a method of comparison here we really don’t. In the case of Minato and Tobirama we have Tobirama outperform an upgraded Minato many times against the same enemy or a faster enemy then Minato has performed worse against



Artistwannabe said:


> There is not really any lie in uncertainty  It was just a perfect excuse for you to drop him into hell (ignore list). I am sure someday when I disagree again with you I would end up there as well.


If you tell someone a statement exist they doesn’t that’s a lie. There’s no uncertainty their. You need to understand munboy wasn’t saying he think a statement means x he was saying it definitely says x, which it doesn’t 

Plenty of people disagree with me on the regular, why are only 3 on my ignore list?


----------



## Artistwannabe (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If you tell someone a statement exist they doesn’t that’s a lie. There’s no uncertainty their. You need to understand munboy wasn’t saying he think a statement means x he was saying it definitely says x, which it doesn’t
> 
> Plenty of people disagree with me on the regular, why are only 3 on my ignore list?


I was not talking about Munboy, but more about Zembie. But yeah whatever you say, time will tell if I'd end up in that list aswell.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If it was a Rasengan we would have seen signs of it’s damage on the Ram the way we did with the other summons. So it’s unlikely to be that.


You would actually not really be able to tell what damage there to its forehead given the panel. 
Nor does that tell us which of the three hit the Ram as is said right?


Turrin said:


> The Manga nor Databook say Minato is faster... so it doesn’t really go against any of those statements


Is that  what  ? 

It says "Greatest in godlike speed there right" ? 
Not "except for that other dude who also said you were "better at Shunshin than him"

Though I really wasn't trying to start an argument there, just establish a baseline on thought processes so I could under where you were coming from better.


Turrin said:


> Anyway; the way I look at feats is if we have a method of comparison here we really don’t. In the case of Minato and Tobirama we have Tobirama outperform an upgraded Minato many times against the same enemy or a faster enemy then Minato has performed worse against


That's a whole feats debate there that seems to answer my earlier question "yes", in slot of ways.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

Guys let Turrin have his safe space!





hbcaptain said:


> And RSM Naruto and JJ Mads who couldn't detect characters in their blind spot.
> So, again the answer is Kishi screwing off.
> Jiraya mastered it as stated in the 4th databook.



Remind me of these Naruto and Madara moments? 

Jiraiya didn't master SM as per the manga. The 4th DB never said he did IIRC  



Hi no Ishi said:


> Like I said, he is better in ways where he was already either better already or on the cusp of it.


 

Could you please elaborate?



> And clearly y'all are the cherry pickers since I posted the whole scan and not just a zoomed in panel of half of his comment.
> 
> And notice Fukusaku explicitly says he hadn't completely mastered it because he still got frog features and follows that up with "and he was one of the best at it".



I used the most important panel which makes the point: Jiraiya did not master it. The line you're citing was meant to let us know how hard it is to master SM.


----------



## hbcaptain (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Remind me of these Naruto and Madara moments?


Madara => BZ arm stab
Naruto => He didn't recognize Kakashi when he grabbed Sakura with PS


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Could you please elaborate?


Sure!


Hi no Ishi said:


> There probably isn't a huge difference in the boost they receive so much as what they can do with that boost.
> 
> Fukusaku directly states that Jiraiya was one of the  at it, and isn't even  Naruto having a better appearance made him surpass Jiraiya as a sage.
> 
> ...


This.  

Also if you give someone talented with a sword Excalibur and some one talented with a hammer Excalibur you won't get the same effect from it right?

Naruto is obviously more talented in Senjutsu given his leaning speed, even with the clones anyway right? That much I'm sure we agree on.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I used the most important panel which makes the point: Jiraiya did not master it. The line you're citing was meant to let us know how hard it is to master SM.


So yes y'all have been doing the thing you just accused me of then right?

You used the part that you felt helped your case and ignored the modifiers of the complete statement.

The _whole thing_ is about how hard it is to learn not just the last of his sentence.

If I say "Even Tommy had a hard time catching Romero's pitches and he's one our best guys!", I'm clearly saying Romero is a hard guy to get a hit in on and that Tommy is a good hitter. Both. 

Not "Tommy is so bad at hitting that it's like a different mode of hitting!!"

Like y'all were trying  to make it seem by using only the one panel.


----------



## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 21, 2019)

I actually cover this topic up way before. 

Fukasaku and Naruto were freaking out when they understand that Amphibique Technic (Elder Toads on Shoulder) never gonna work on Naruto. And he imply the fact that Naruto's SM would be incomplete. What Fukasaku praised Naruto over Jiraiya was. His containtment of Nature Chakra and cuz of this his transition was smoother. Also brings more potential. 

And Naruto able to do that cuz he has larger chakra pool for dividing chakra to e energies (ying-yang-nature) . And even Fukasaku imply how Kyuubi's chakra kinda doubles some effects of sagehood

SM kinda bit retconned for Naruto's behalf. There is no indication about "Naruto 10x better than J-Man". 

On the contrary what both Naruto and J-Man did against Pain under very different circumstances and how Naruto slipped with plot (Kyuubi + Minato's touch + Nagato's Empathy via Jiraiya's book etc etc while he has full knowledge and preparation for'em) kinda shows Jiraiya was still is the superior ninja at that time. 


And there is some detail people love to overlook or just fairly overlook. Fukasaku aint compare Full Sennin Mode Jiraiya vs Full Sennin Mode Naruto. 

He comparing them as sage mode trainees. And dont count Amphibique Technic.


As you can see Fukasaku describes 3 Sage Combo stance as Jiraiya "Final Form of His Sage Mode". Its not "Jiraiya's Sage Mode".  And Jiraiya aint require'em for getting in SM . Like Fukasaku implied before;

*Link Removed* 
He is (and Ma) just there for making Sage Mode more effective via constant Nature Energy Draining while the summoner can still act active. 

So when Fukasaku compare Naruto and Jiraiya's sagehood its not like he compare Vs Pain Jiraiya and Vs Pain Naruto.

He compare Naruto with this guy;


AS you can see Jiraiya in SM w/o toads. And even like this Fukasaku describes Jiraiya's sagehood as "HE WAS ONE OF THE BEST AT IT." (and we saw Moyobokuzan stone toads behind Jiraiya. Fukasaku clearly compare'em as trainees)

So what Fukasaku is try to say; " w/o final forms Naruto's sagehood has far more potention into it."

Its nothing like ; "Naruto exceeds the final form of Jiraiya's sage mode" . People dont understand that. 

Thats the reason why Minato said " Im not that good at senjutsu" Cuz of his lack of final form. His eyes was exactly like Naruto but he still put himself behind both Jiraiya and Naruto. So controling not always = being better.

And lastly how much power Jiraiya gain via sagehood;



"...*dramaticly increase* the level of ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu..."
"...bringing him *truly* to to the realm of sage..."

Even w/o final form (Amphibique Technic) Fukasaku describes Jiraiya as "one of the best" so surely with the aid of other 2 elder toad sages his stats probably go way higher. And due to DB5 now he has Naruto's SM Attiributes too. 

So the belief that describes as " If Jiraiya gains 2x buff from sagehood then Naruto gets 10x" kinda moot.

Reactions: Like 6


----------



## kokodeshide (Apr 21, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I actually cover this topic up way before.
> 
> Fukasaku and Naruto were freaking out when they understand that Amphibique Technic (Elder Toads on Shoulder) never gonna work on Naruto. And he imply the fact that Naruto's SM would be incomplete. What Fukasaku praised Naruto over Jiraiya was. His containtment of Nature Chakra and cuz of this his transition was smoother. Also brings more potential.
> 
> ...


Great post, the only thing it doesnt really answer is how AFTER naruto had mastered Maintaining SM Fukasaku mentions that he might surpass jiraiya, then in the pain fight, he says he does surpass jiraiya.


----------



## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 21, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> he says he does surpass jiraiya.


He also said Minato's name as well. Do you really think that Rookie SM Naruto superior than Minato ? Fukasaku probably compare them in same age .. Like 16 y/o Minato and Jiraiya and Naruto... And he wasnt say anything about sagehood.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

Let's tackle posters who won't cry in a corner when challenged. 



hbcaptain said:


> Madara => BZ arm stab
> Naruto => He didn't recognize Kakashi when he grabbed Sakura with PS



I addressed both these points. One, he probably did sense but did not expect to be attacked. The other, Naruto needs to consciously sense someone's chakra signature; that's not danger sensing, that's chakra sensing.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Sure!
> 
> This.
> 
> ...




The only thing here is DB3's stats show that Jiraiya was considerably better than Naruto in all areas, though.  You can make a case for Naruto's jutsu, but many -- including Turrin before he backpedaled --  agreed that Naruto's base was inferior to Jiraiya's. The only way Sage Naruto could be better than Sage Jiraiya is if his SM was better.



> So yes y'all have been doing the thing you just accused me of then right?
> 
> You used the part that you felt helped your case and ignored the modifiers of the complete statement.
> 
> ...



Key difference: I gave you the important point: Jiraiya never mastered Senjutsu. The other points don't say anything to contradict this, in fact the thing you cite only illustrates how hard it is to learn SM hence why it is a big deal for Naruto to master it. The key takeaways:

- Jiraiya did not master Senjutsu yet he was one of the best at it
- Naruto will look so much better when he masters Senjutsu which many, including Jiraiya, could not do



JiraiyaFlash said:


> I actually cover this topic up way before.
> 
> Fukasaku and Naruto were freaking out when they understand that Amphibique Technic (Elder Toads on Shoulder) never gonna work on Naruto. And he imply the fact that Naruto's SM would be incomplete. What Fukasaku praised Naruto over Jiraiya was. His containtment of Nature Chakra and cuz of this his transition was smoother. Also brings more potential.



Your page says nothing about how Naruto's chakra capacity comes into it. All Fukasaku said is that a large chakra capacity is needed to learn SM.



> And Naruto able to do that cuz he has larger chakra pool for dividing chakra to e energies (ying-yang-nature) . And even Fukasaku imply how Kyuubi's chakra kinda doubles some effects of sagehood



Except that's not what your page says. All Fukasaku said is that using Senjutsu helps the user recover with each use rather than them being drained and that Kurama's own recovery feature further increases the recovery. Nothing about Naruto's "larger chakra pool". 



> SM kinda bit retconned for Naruto's behalf. There is no indication about "Naruto 10x better than J-Man".



There wasn't a retcon, it was established Jiraiya never mastered SM. It stands to reason that Naruto would have a much greater boost when he actually mastered the mode, otherwise why bother mastering it if the boost won't be substantial?



> On the contrary what both Naruto and J-Man did against Pain under very different circumstances and how Naruto slipped with plot (Kyuubi + Minato's touch + Nagato's Empathy via Jiraiya's book etc etc while he has full knowledge and preparation for'em) kinda shows Jiraiya was still is the superior ninja at that time.



Unlikely. There were not different circumstances. Jiraiya was faced with shared vision, and it plagued him throughout the battle where he had to rely on a one time barrier trap and Pain underestimating his Genjutsu. Naruto overcame shared vision and actually forced Pain to use Deva's power. It showed that Naruto with mastered Senjutsu surpassed Jiraiya.



> And there is some detail people love to overlook or just fairly overlook. Fukasaku aint compare Full Sennin Mode Jiraiya vs Full Sennin Mode Naruto.
> 
> He comparing them as sage mode trainees. And dont count Amphibique Technic.



He compared them as Sages dude, the fact Jiraiya needed the amphibian technique was an indication of his inferiority; he couldn't gather, or maintain, NE himself. 



> As you can see Fukasaku describes 3 Sage Combo stance as Jiraiya "Final Form of His Sage Mode". Its not "Jiraiya's Sage Mode".  And Jiraiya aint require'em for getting in SM . Like Fukasaku implied before;
> 
> *Link Removed*
> He is (and Ma) just there for making Sage Mode more effective via constant Nature Energy Draining while the summoner can still act active.



Yeah, no. This is contradicted by the fact that Jiraiya immediately reverted to his base form in Amegakure the moment one of the toads left him.



> So when Fukasaku compare Naruto and Jiraiya's sagehood its not like he compare Vs Pain Jiraiya and Vs Pain Naruto.



He was comparing them. Jiraiya needed them to enter SM, we saw what happened when one toad wasn't there.



> He compare Naruto with this guy;
> 
> 
> AS you can see Jiraiya in SM w/o toads. And even like this Fukasaku describes Jiraiya's sagehood as "HE WAS ONE OF THE BEST AT IT." (and we saw Moyobokuzan stone toads behind Jiraiya. Fukasaku clearly compare'em as trainees)
> ...



AS you remember, in Myoubokuzan someone like Jiraiya who can't gather NE could have Senjutsu without the toads with the toad oil... He comparing their Senjutsu ability. FYI comparing them as "trainees" would count as that too. 

It seems you don't understand "Jiraiya never mastered this" alongside "no frog features, Naruto exceeded Jiraiya as a Sage"... 



> Thats the reason why Minato said " Im not that good at senjutsu" Cuz of his lack of final form. His eyes was exactly like Naruto but he still put himself behind both Jiraiya and Naruto. So controling not always = being better.





There's no "final form" business here. That "final form" is the Sage Mode Jiraiya uses, presumably without the toad oil. Much like how Naruto's Sage Mode would be the "final form" seeing as it is the one he uses without the toad oil. Minato _did _master Senjutsu, but he put himself behind Naruto and Jiraiya because it takes him too long to gather NE and he cannot maintain it for long. That's it.

Controlling it = better. Minato could enter SM without the toads, unlike Jiraiya; Naruto is the best because he was able to develop a way to enter it quickly.



> And lastly how much power Jiraiya gain via sagehood;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Logically Naruto's would be greater as we learnt this is an unmastered SM whilst Naruto possesses a mastered version.



> Even w/o final form (Amphibique Technic) Fukasaku describes Jiraiya as "one of the best" so surely with the aid of other 2 elder toad sages his stats probably go way higher. And due to DB5 now he has Naruto's SM Attiributes too.
> 
> So the belief that describes as " If Jiraiya gains 2x buff from sagehood then Naruto gets 10x" kinda moot.



A few problems with your statement:
- Like @Hi no Ishi you are only considering "one of the best" whilst neglecting the fact that Jiraiya never mastered the form.
- The entry refers to this final form; the "pre final form" mode you cite is very likely just a toad oil Jiraiya whish is considerably weaker
- When Naruto achieved his "final form" without toad oil, Fukasaku goes on to say Naruto is a better Sage
- DB4 doesn't say Jiriaya has Naruto's SM attributes, in fact, it illustrates Jiraiya's inferiority. Jiraiya had the same abilities, but not on the same level as Naruto's-- hence he struggled where Naruto excelled e.g. no ghost punching or the superior feats Naruto has

As I've said many times and demonstrated with the way you chose to interpret the information, to assume Jiraiya has the exact same boost as Naruto relies on us ignoring the manga -- particularly the part which establishes Jiraiya's lack of mastery of the mode. 

So it stands, as you put it "if Jiraiya gains a 2x buff from sagehood then Naruto gets 10x". Fukasaku's words say it; Naruto's feats show it.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## kokodeshide (Apr 21, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> He also said Minato's name as well. Do you really think that Rookie SM Naruto superior than Minato ?


No doubt. There is a reason Minato needed KCM to contend in the war.
And really, is it such a stretch to believe the main character, the Jinchuriki of the strongest Bijuu, Host of the spirit of a half alien godman, who has used Shadowclone jutsu to super boost his experience gathering, is perfect sage, and his mastery of Rasengan that makes Minato look like a child in comparison, is it REALLY so hard to believe that he, in Sage mode, is stronger?


JiraiyaFlash said:


> Fukasaku probably compare them in same age .. Like 16 y/o Minato and Jiraiya and Naruto...


There is no suggestion of that.


JiraiyaFlash said:


> And he wasnt say anything about sagehood.


Lol, what? He was talking about Minato and Jiraiya as a whole vs Naruto.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

It is hard to take Jiraiya fans seriously when over the years I've seen the following stances (most from Turrin):

- Naruto surpasses Jiraiya: "no, Jiraiya's is better because even though his SM is weaker, it is infinite"
- "Jiraiya can use SM without the toads look at this panel where he was in Myoubokuzan"; ignores Jiraiya reverting to base when he lost a toad
- "Because of databook 4 I will say Naruto and Jiraiya have exactly the same abilities like ghost punching"; ignores Fukasaku saying Jiraiya never mastered the form and that Naruto's form is better. 

Each Jiraiya fan seems to have their own explanation of why Jiraiya's SM doesn't fall short. 

Its like what @hbcaptain suggested, did Naruto only bother to master SM because it looked cool rather than a mastered SM giving some huge benefits compared to an unmastered version.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 21, 2019)

if only those databooks (1-4) were using the exact same system in Boruto's profile data where they show exact numbers (although hopefully more realistic) things would have been easier. although you could argue that butthurt fans will deny them as well which means the end result is more or less the same either way...


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

Hussain said:


> if only those databooks (1-4) were using the exact same system in Boruto's profile data where they show exact numbers (although hopefully more realistic) things would have been easier. although you could argue that butthurt fans will deny them as well which means the end result is more or less the same either way...



I remember when I first joined members, including Turrin actually, used to say the manga's showings take precedence and the DB should be used in context to the manga. Look how that turned out.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The only thing here is DB3's stats show that Jiraiya was considerably better than Naruto in all areas, though. You can make a case for Naruto's jutsu, but many -- including Turrin before he backpedaled -- agreed that Naruto's base was inferior to Jiraiya's. The only way Sage Naruto could be better than Sage Jiraiya is if his SM was better.


That doesn't cover Naruto's improvement from sage training at all, nor hin engancing his stats with chakra and he is clearly closer to Jiraiya than anyone in the village. 

His jutsu are far beyond him so are his feints which is exactly what he uses in his better performance against pain.

So the things Naruto actually uses become better than what Jiraiya can use.

Also refer to the Excalibur example once again, please.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Key difference: I gave you the important point: Jiraiya never mastered Senjutsu. The other points don't say anything to contradict this, in fact the thing you cite only illustrates how hard it is to learn SM hence why it is a big deal for Naruto to master it. The key takeaways:
> 
> - Jiraiya did not master Senjutsu yet he was one of the best at it
> - Naruto will look so much better when he masters Senjutsu which many, including Jiraiya, could not do


The key point to YOU. Not Fukusaku or anyone else in the manga. 

It doesn't matter if his SM could be improved, everybody's can as we see with Naruto later, he is still noted to be one of the best regardless. Please stop trying to parse his sentence and take the whole thing for what he is saying.


Hi no Ishi said:


> The _whole thing_ is about how hard it is to learn not just the last of his sentence.
> 
> If I say "Even Tommy had a hard time catching Romero's pitches and he's one our best guys!", I'm clearly saying Romero is a hard guy to get a hit in on and that Tommy is a good hitter. Both.
> 
> ...


As I said.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> - Like @Hi no Ishi you are only considering "one of the best" whilst neglecting the fact that Jiraiya never mastered the form.


And you aren't considering the whole sentence because it doesn't suit your agenda clearly, right?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That doesn't cover Naruto's improvement from sage training at all, nor hin engancing his stats with chakra and he is clearly closer to Jiraiya than anyone in the village.




Doesn't matter, that was basically Wind Naruto with Senjutsu. 



> His jutsu are far beyond him so are his feints which is exactly what he uses in his better performance against pain.



Made possible by a superior Senjutsu boost compared to Jiraiya.



> So the things Naruto actually uses become better than what Jiraiya can use.
> 
> Also refer to the Excalibur example once again, please.



False analogy for reasons already mentioned and we know base Jiraiya is better than base Naruto. He has more powerful jutsu and superior stats.



> The key point to YOU. Not Fukusaku or anyone else in the manga.



Speak for yourself, Turrin, and anyone else who wants to run with this notion. Jiraiya not mastering Senjutsu was the key takeaway; that's why it was mentioned.



> It doesn't matter if his SM could be improved, everybody's can as we see with Naruto later, he is still noted to be one of the best regardless. Please stop trying to parse his sentence and take the whole thing for what he is saying.
> 
> As I said.



Just accept Fukasaku's words... Jiraiya did not master it. You can pretend he didn't say it and run with "Jiraiya was one of the best", but it still doesn't change the fact Jiraiya did not master the jutsu. 



> And you aren't considering the whole sentence because it doesn't suit your agenda clearly, right?



That's you. You've chosen to completely omit it and come up with some crazy stance (base Naruto>base Jiraiya lol) to support it. I addressed your "proof" and explained it, which you did not even address (a trend I'm noticing ITT with Jiraiya supporters re this issue).

I mean, the very fact you refuse to accept Jiraiya's lack of SM mastery is quite telling. Makes sense as it immediately notifies you that a mastered SM brings a substantial boost compared to Jiraiya's-- this completely shuts down your stance.

Tell me why I should disregard the fact Jiraiya didn't master it and tell me now why I should pretend base Jiraiya is inferior to base Naruto so your stance can stand.


----------



## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 22, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> whilst neglecting the fact that Jiraiya never mastered the form.


 I ever overlooked that fact but what ım saying is "Fukasaku aint consider the final form of amphibique technic while compare'em" . The biggest point that you overlook is that. And pages shows that too.

And ı never try to say their sagehood is equal But when Jiraiya merge with toads he is not weaker or inferior to Rookie SM Naruto. 

And also if sage mode amplify Naruto 10x and Jiraiya 3x Thats still made SM Jiraiya superior char cuz for Pain Arc (w/o kyuubi interaction) Base Jiraiya is like 3 to 5x superior than Base Naruto so in the end .

8x3=24
3x8 =24 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is hard to take Jiraiya fans seriously


Classic Ad Hominem move of NBD. Nice to see this old trick  

Everyone in this forum (bunch of adults discussing over fictional fights of a series that ended years ago) are fans of somethings. And many of 'em are hard to take seriously its not just "X Fans meh" thing.

Turrin asks a fare question. And you only have close implies not an clarifying statement at all. 

And ı bring my perspectice. Im saying yes Naruto got better amps from sagehood but thats not contain Final Form of Sage Mode (for Toad Sages). And manga agrees with me. So you dont have to take it seriously since its an easier thing to do. But at least try to be more relevant dude.

Both Fukasaku and Naruto start to saw all of sagehood training that Naruto master as a "waste of time" when they learned the fact that they cant merge. This shows how important Amphibique Technic is. And Naruto needed an very special arrangement for all of his Sage Mode performance. 3 clones at myobokuzan that feeding with Toad Oil. And he spawns'em. In the end Kyuubi and Minato and Jiraiya's Book save the day for Naruto not his "exceeding sagehood". 

w/o amphibique technic, as bare sages Naruto > Jiraiya is the sentence that Fukasaku try to implies. 

And about Jiraiya sagehood;

Databook: "...bringing him *truly* to to the realm of sage..."
Fukasaku: " One of the best at it"

And Minato the guy who had similar facial features as Naruto says "... Im not very good at it..." Your all defense maded up over that facial feature that Naruto had and Jiraiya aint have but in the end. That feature not automaticly shows "spectacular superiority". 

This 3 sentence happened in the same manga and verse. 

Yes Base SM Jiraiya not potent as Base SM Naruto but Base SM Naruto was a "Base Sage" (until he able to transfer more chakra from Kurama which is another example for how Kurama's chakra reserve amplify Naruto's sagehood) . And on the other hand due to the same dude Fukasaku ; Jiraiya was reaching to the final form of Sage Mode which is never stated as a "false" or "incomplete" or "inferior" to Naruto.


But again, you should try to go with "not taking seriously" cuz its easier and common attidute around these forums.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 22, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I ever overlooked that fact but what ım saying is "Fukasaku aint consider the final form of amphibique technic while compare'em" . The biggest point that you overlook is that. And pages shows that too.
> 
> And ı never try to say their sagehood is equal But when Jiraiya merge with toads he is not weaker or inferior to Rookie SM Naruto.
> 
> ...



No. 

Jiraiya merging with the toads with an unmastered SM _is _inferior to Sage Mode Naruto who mastered Senjutsu. 

That doesn't make Jiraiya superior, base Jiraiya is superior to base Naruto by a lot... that is literally the point I've been making. If we agree on that, that's good. But, that's why SM Naruto's boost is insanely superior to SM Jiraiya's, it took Naruto who couldn't compete with base Jiraiya to being above Sage Jiraiya. In the Pain Arc, he overcame scenarios that Jiraiya couldn't in Sage Mode.




> Classic Ad Hominem move of NBD. Nice to see this old trick
> 
> Everyone in this forum (bunch of adults discussing over fictional fights of a series that ended years ago) are fans of somethings. And many of 'em are hard to take seriously its not just "X Fans meh" thing.



Apparently some like a character so much that they refuse to accept what's written in the actual manga. I wouldn't make the point about the series which ended a while back because those same people still kicked up a fuss (with different arguments, same agenda) when the manga was running. 



> Turrin asks a fare question. And you only have close implies not an clarifying statement at all.



"Jiraiya never mastered [Senjutsu]" & "Naruto has become a Sage exceeding Jiraiya"... these aren't clear enough? 





> And ı bring my perspectice. Im saying yes Naruto got better amps from sagehood but thats not contain Final Form of Sage Mode (for Toad Sages). And manga agrees with me. So you dont have to take it seriously since its an easier thing to do. But at least try to be more relevant dude.



The manga doesn't agree with you, however. The "final form" of Sage Mode you cite is Jiraiya's actual Sage Mode. The "forms" before were the equivalent of Naruto's forms with toad like features. In fact, if you want to get fancy, the page you posted shows Fukasaku "comparing them as pupils" as you put it, after Naruto was turning into a frog for the first time.

Your page... 


The full page
Its not LITERALLY 50% PHYSICAL ENERGIES IS IT

The page in the same chapter which kickstarted the whole explanation:
Its not LITERALLY 50% PHYSICAL ENERGIES IS IT

"Final form" of Sage Mode is the Sage Mode used in battle. That page you brought up was referenced after Naruto mastered his Sage Mode. 



> Both Fukasaku and Naruto start to saw all of sagehood training that Naruto master as a "waste of time" when they learned the fact that they cant merge. This shows how important Amphibique Technic is. And Naruto needed an very special arrangement for all of his Sage Mode performance. 3 clones at myobokuzan that feeding with Toad Oil. And he spawns'em. In the end Kyuubi and Minato and Jiraiya's Book save the day for Naruto not his "exceeding sagehood".



Wrong. Only Naruto was wondering what the training was for. As we know, he saw the point once he discovered his clone method i.e. a good alternative to the merging. 
The Kyuubi, Minato and Jiraiya's book do not prove the point you think it is proving. Pain was so much stronger than Naruto and Jiraiya at that time; Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya though hence Deva's powers were actually used.



> w/o amphibique technic, as bare sages Naruto > Jiraiya is the sentence that Fukasaku try to implies.



A "bare Sage" Jiraiya doesn't exist. He can't even enter the form without 2 toads:
Its not LITERALLY 50% PHYSICAL ENERGIES IS IT



> And about Jiraiya sagehood;
> 
> Databook: "...bringing him *truly* to to the realm of sage..."
> Fukasaku: " One of the best at it"



I already told you about Fukasaku's comments re Jiraiya and Naruto's mastery as well as pointing out all of Naruto's superior feats.



> And Minato the guy who had similar facial features as Naruto says "... Im not very good at it..." Your all defense maded up over that facial feature that Naruto had and Jiraiya aint have but in the end. That feature not automaticly shows "spectacular superiority".



Minato _did _perfect Sage Mode as Fukasaku described it. For starters, unlike Jiraiya he can enter it on his own and balance the energies perfectly. However, you took one line and left it at that, please have a look at Minato's reasoning as to why he's not very good:

Its not LITERALLY 50% PHYSICAL ENERGIES IS IT

It takes him too long to build up the energy and he cannot maintain it for long. Nothing about he's less capable than Jiraiya, his Senjutsu is obviously more powerful than Jiraiya's, but he cannot maintain it. A bit worthless when it takes ages to enter and he cannot keep it for even 5 mins. Though, he does go onto say he hasn't used it much in combat, which highlights experience. In other words, his Sage Mode, though perfect, isn't practical. It still doesn't take away from the fact he's better than Jiraiya at it.



> Yes Base SM Jiraiya not potent as Base SM Naruto but Base SM Naruto was a "Base Sage" (until he able to transfer more chakra from Kurama which is another example for how Kurama's chakra reserve amplify Naruto's sagehood) . And on the other hand due to the same dude Fukasaku ; Jiraiya was reaching to the final form of Sage Mode which is never stated as a "false" or "incomplete" or "inferior" to Naruto.



Final SM = the mode that Naruto and Jiraiya use outside Myoubokuzan without the oil.



> But again, you should try to go with "not taking seriously" cuz its easier and common attidute around these forums.



Do you realise you're in a thread where someone went out of there way to make a thread with my name on it because I said Naruto's SM > Jiraiya's SM and base Jiraiya>base Naruto?


----------



## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 22, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> my name on it because I said Naruto's SM > Jiraiya's SM and base Jiraiya>base Naruto?


Dude thats the part that ım disagree. W/o sagehood potential (the thing that exceeding over) There is no indiciation about  (at least not clearly) Sage Jiraiya inferior ninja to Rookie PA SM Naruto.

Im agree with you about Naruto has better boost (which is kinda bit about Kyuubi and plot) but its not "INSANELY" different.

Basicaly what ı bring to the topic is only 2 things;

1st Fukasaku comparing their bare sagehood. Not their final reach.

2nd SM Jiraiya is not weaker char cuz of 3 reason;

 -a- Base Jiraiya superior to Base Naruto (w/o Kyuubi interaction)
 -b- Their similar results as sages against same godly group under very very different circumstances
 -c- Fukasaku only compares them as trainees and not as "Full fledge sage ninjas" . 

And that 2 point that ı brind kinda aprooved by manga, databook (clearly author) and you're the one still talking about taking someone seriously. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> unlike Jiraiya he can enter it on his own


Jiraiya also can enter it on his own. The opppsite of it never stated. On the contrary ı proved it with manga panel. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It takes him too long to build up the energy and he cannot maintain it for long. Nothing about he's less capable than Jiraiya, his Senjutsu is obviously more powerful than Jiraiya's,


So he is basicaly better instant control but bad at it almost any other thing of it. And when Minato perform sage mode he was edo and has kyuubi ( that means a lot of energy recovery and chakra regeneration ) We actualy dont know a thing about Base Sage Minato.

And he didnt said "Im worse than Naruto" He said "ım not good at it." And Fukasaku said "He is one of the best" for Jiraiya. 

In the end there is nothing "obvious" about what did u say. I think this is the reaon why Turrin turned on. Dude implies =/= clear statements. Most of the things you and ı said is "observative conclusions" not "clear author aprooved statements". So NO! Minato not "OBVIOUSLY" better sage. He could be idk but ı know its not "OBVIOUS"


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It still doesn't take away from the fact he's better than Jiraiya at it.


Yeah it kinda does.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Thats STATED by Sasuke OUTRIGHT


That quote would be have the meaning of what wrote in it. But since we have Fukasaku other statement about Jiraiya (who is fine with get in SM By himself) that quote kinda a thing like "Jiraiya why the heck you called us and why doing your job by yourself". After all, Ma is kinda has complaining figure a lot. She also rejected the idea of Frog Song at first too. So she could be complaining again. 

Cuz we have a panel about Jiraiya in sage mode w/o toad oil or toads. And Fukasaku praises him as his trainee. 

Context matters.


----------



## Prince Idonojie (Apr 22, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> I actually cover this topic up way before.
> 
> Fukasaku and Naruto were freaking out when they understand that Amphibique Technic (Elder Toads on Shoulder) never gonna work on Naruto. And he imply the fact that Naruto's SM would be incomplete. What Fukasaku praised Naruto over Jiraiya was. His containtment of Nature Chakra and cuz of this his transition was smoother. Also brings more potential.
> 
> ...


This should've been an obvious universal fact that all Naruto fans understood... If they weren't so biased or dense.

And the end of the day, even Kabuto had to circumvent that crippling predicament of SM duration via the mutation of Jugo & S5's DNA, which constantly supply him with natural energy. Naruto never achieved *the final form *of SM until near EoS p2, which essentially is staying in SM indefinitely. In stead of Pa and Ma, a befriended Kurama became his partner for gathering natural energy and Naruto was able to remain in SM indefinitely because of that partnership.

Why is this even difficult to understand?


*ANOTHER weakness never talked about*:
When Naruto formed SM Chakra by himself (no partner), he could only form a limited amount of sage chakra because he doesn't have a constant flow of natural energy supplied to him which he can use to transform ordinary chakra into sage chakra. So the longer the battle goes on and the more SM chakra Naruto uses, the less power his SM would have.  

After using one FRS, the power of his SM diminished and his SM duration was hastened. Jiraiya (with fusion) and Kabuto (with mutations) NEVER had this issue.

Naruto with SM might start with 100 in strength, speed, durability, power etc but by reason of his limitation prior to his partnership with Kurama, he couldn't maintain that 100 throughout the duration of his SM. Before you know it he'd be 80, 60, 40 then 0

Jiraiya and Kabuto can start at 95 but from start to finish they can maintain something similar to that 95 because they receive a constant supply of natural energy which they can use to transform every chakra they have into sage chakra without exiting the mode, so whenever their sage chakra goes down to say 85, they can use the already available natural energy to convert and transform it back to 95.

This is the superiority of having *a final SM form.*

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 22, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> make up a different form of Sage Mode.


When fukasaku compare both we saw young jiraiya's sage mode w/o toads. in the panel but same fukasaku calls amphibique mode as final form of sage mode which is also intented for naruto too. Its manga who use the word of "form" we didnt make up genius. 

You're really rotten boy. Good day to you. If you cant be a gentlemen that doesnt even mean who is right or wrong thats mean you're just immature. And tagging people for cheering crowd is just funny. Yeah like ı said before u'll gonna go with "ad hominem" after all. One step closer to the ignore list (which would make you the first ı guess)

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 22, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> When fukasaku compare both we saw young jiraiya's sage mode w/o toads. in the panel but same fukasaku calls amphibique mode as final form of sage mode which is also intented for naruto too. Its manga who use the word of "form" we didnt make up genius.



You saw Jiraiya _in Myoubokuzan _where the toad oil exists. You also were shown Jiraiya immediately losing SM without one toad. You were also shown a page where Jiraiya was told he should learn to enter SM alone. The verdict is clear: Jiraiya *cannot *use SM on his own.

This "final form" of SM you made up doesn't help your point as its just the SM that Naruto surpassed. Sage Mode is its own technique, the amphibian technique is a bolt on, in Jiraiya's case it was a requirement because he cannot enter the mode on his own.. So yes, you made this concept up of a "final form" up to try to avoid admitting that Naruto's SM is just better.



> You're really rotten boy. Good day to you. If you cant be a gentlemen that doesnt even mean who is right or wrong thats mean you're just immature. And tagging people for cheering crowd is just funny. Yeah like ı said before u'll gonna go with "ad hominem" after all. One step closer to the ignore list (which would make you the first ı guess)



Of course its funny, on one hand I get a guy who thinks Jiraiya's unmastered SM has the same boosts as Naruto's mastered SM whilst saying the boost is equal to the CS. Then I get you who has literally made up a lot of stuff and misread a lot pages he posted who also talks about using context whilst omitting context to make his points. 

I mean look at you, you can't even address the points where you were corrected and had to type up a dramatic reply. That itself tells me that you have a weak argument. How do I know this? I literally pointed out things you ignored, you ignored them (seems to be a trend with Jiraiya fans) and *repeated yourself*. That sort of thing makes it hard to have a serious argument with you.

"Final form of Sage Mode". 

@Ishmael Just when I think these Sannin guys can't surprise me.


----------



## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 22, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You also were shown Jiraiya immediately losing SM without one toad.


Who was tired, one arm chopped of, chakra poisoned man ?  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You saw Jiraiya _in Myoubokuzan _where the toad oil exists.


Are toad oils also effect via air ? Do you have any proove about Toad Oil effect on Jiraiya. You're the speculator in this dude but strangely you're the one who talking about "serious arguments".

Like @Hi no Ishi  said before. You just look at what suits you. And your argument style or general behaviour not cool. I bring my points already. Im done. Thnx for conversation.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 22, 2019)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Who was tired, one arm chopped of, chakra poisoned man ?



And you missed out the other points... which is ironic considering what I've said later in the post.




> Are toad oils also effect via air ? Do you have any proove about Toad Oil effect on Jiraiya. You're the speculator in this dude but strangely you're the one who talking about "serious arguments".



Reading this makes me question if you actually read the manga. You're going to say Jiraiya is the only person who didn't use the oil to train? I'm not even going to address the parts you chose to ignore. 



> Like @Hi no Ishi  said before. You just look at what suits you. And your argument style or general behaviour not cool. I bring my points already. Im done. Thnx for conversation.



Actually, the both of you are the ones who cherry pick parts of the manga which suits your agenda whilst suspiciously ignoring the parts which go against you. The bias runs so deep that you can't even address it.

I've seen this tactic: you know you're wrong, but you don't want to concede to save face. 


@Ishmael it isn't just Turrin, the rest of them don't seem to listen to other arguments.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 22, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You would actually not really be able to tell what damage there to its forehead given the panel.
> Nor does that tell us which of the three hit the Ram as is said right?
> 
> Is that  what  ?
> ...


1. Seems unlikely that Fusaku or Shima bound to Jiraiya shoulders hit the ram. But ether way the best you can say is we don’t know; which is my point there’s is no way to tell whose physical faster

2. DB just repeats and fleshes out what was said in the Manga. At one point Minato was praised as the fastest, but that was after Tobirama was dead. So no the Databook isn’t calling him the fastest Shinobi ether, I mean he clearly isn’t Tobirama aside Hagaromo was faster

3. Not sure what your trying to say with the rest of this, but pretty much what it comes down to is we have no basis to compare SM Jiraiya and SM Naruto in physical strength, but we have one to compare Tobirama and Minato in speed.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 23, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Even if Naruto has danger sensing and Jiraiya didn’t, which I don’t agree with and but can understand where people are coming from with that. That still doesn’t mean Naruto gets some massively greater boost from Sage Mode that Jiraiya doesn’t


I don't think it's unreasonable to say Naruto > Jiraiya when it comes to senjutsu, was it not already made clear by his performance against Pain and subsequently thereafter in additional arcs?


Turrin said:


> 1. Being a better sage doesn’t mean having a greater boost. It has meaning in other things: Speed at gathering natural energy, ability to gather natural energy with clones, better at Sage Arts,
> etc....


To be fair, Naruto does enter senjutsu faster than Jiraiya, performs various other abilities with senjutsu than Jiraiya on-panel and is considered to be a better overall sage than Jiraiya.



WorldsStrongest said:


> But, we KNOW that SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya...Therefore, regardless of the values given, we KNOW that Y NEEDS TO BE > X
> 
> This is literally grade school level problem solving and it is whooshing you


Not necessarily, Naruto has Kurama's chakra with him so some his attributes as a senjutsu are greatly magnified and that's an advantage Jiraiya's does not have.



Hussain said:


> he is really amazing if you think about it... of how wrong he can get...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kabuto also combined parts of Orochimaru's modified snake-like body into his being to attain the power as well as multiple other shinobi. We cannot be certain if the snake like features being a side-effect of the integration or a consequence of mastering snake-based senjutsu.


Turrin said:


> So no statement or admission of lying , okay unfortunately to my ignore list you go Munboy


That's petty and toxic Turrin, I know you want him to admit he was wrong for saying that, there has to be another way, but your call man.


---- Friendly reminder ----

Stop posting off topic material, the topic of the discussion is senjutsu and other associated topics with that, we aren't here to discuss Turrin's ignore list as much as you guys think it is an accomplishment for making it, it's a childish aspiration.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 23, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kabuto also combined parts of Orochimaru's modified snake-like body into his being to attain the power as well as multiple other shinobi. We cannot be certain if the snake like features being a side-effect of the integration or a consequence of mastering snake-based senjutsu.


We can. When he turned SM on, he got the 4 horns grown, and when SM turned off, they were gone.
Therefore, the horns are part of his SM


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 23, 2019)

Hussain said:


> We can. When he turned SM on, he got the 4 horns grown, and when SM turned off, they were gone.
> Therefore, the horns are part of his SM


I am referring to snake like features with the scales and reptilian facial look you were commenting on, not so much the horns—those I agree, are unique to the ryuuchi senjutsu but aren't really snake features though.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Turrin (Apr 23, 2019)

@Ryuzaki

My point is that being better at Senjutsu doesn’t necessarily mean a bigger boost. Jiraiya is stated to be one of the best at Senjutsu and still seemingly has the same x10 boost as CS users get. After Naruto has less Frog features even says Naruto only “might” be better then Jiraiya, which implies the more perfect mode isn’t some crazy ascended mode with much greater boost but rather the difference between Naruto and Jiraiya is slight. We also have Minato who says he’s not that great at Senjutsu despite him having a “perfect” SM.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 23, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Ryuzaki
> 
> My point is that being better at Senjutsu doesn’t necessarily mean a bigger boost. Jiraiya is stated to be one of the best at Senjutsu and still seemingly has the same x10 boost as CS users get. After Naruto has less Frog features even says Naruto only “might” be better then Jiraiya, which implies the more perfect mode isn’t some crazy ascended mode with much greater boost but rather the difference between Naruto and Jiraiya is slight. We also have Minato who says he’s not that great at Senjutsu despite him having a “perfect” SM.


I was always under the impression that Naruto having Kurama's chakra was the difference maker in Jiraiya and Naruto, such that Naruto's recovery was significantly faster when compared to Jiraiya.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 23, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> I was always under the impression that Naruto having Kurama's chakra was the difference maker in Jiraiya and Naruto, such that Naruto's recovery was significantly faster when compared to Jiraiya.


That and he’s a bit better at the Sage Arts himself.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 23, 2019)

Jiraiya did not mastery SM; Naruto did. How are some of you thinking that their SMs are comparable?


And the fact some of you outright ignore counterarguments altogether and simply repeat what was already countered doesn't suggest you've got very strong arguments on the matter.



Ishmael said:


> They'll hit you with the "We haven't even really seen a true perfect sage mode" soon



I'm pretty sure someone said that.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 23, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya did not mastery SM; Naruto did. How are some of you thinking that their SMs are comparable?
> 
> 
> And the fact some of you outright ignore counterarguments altogether and simply repeat what was already countered doesn't suggest you've got very strong arguments on the matter.
> ...


Overall, the end result is not much different though, Naruto is comparatively better at it than Jiraiya. We're like comparing two versions of the same car except Naruto's comes supercharged while Jiraiya at best is using a twin turbo.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Turrin (Apr 23, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> Overall, the end result is not much different though, Naruto is comparatively better at it than Jiraiya. We're like comparing two versions of the same car except Naruto's comes supercharged while Jiraiya at best is using a twin turbo.


Agreed


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 23, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> Overall, the end result is not much different though, Naruto is comparatively better at it than Jiraiya. We're like comparing two versions of the same car except Naruto's comes supercharged while Jiraiya at best is using a twin turbo.



I do not understand this analogy. 

Though, it is suggested the end result is different, I've continually cited posts where I addressed this argument last year: 







Apart from the statements, I've even shown feats which demonstrate Naruto's radically different results. 

There's also Pain being the measure himself: firstly, Deva Path's powers weren't even used on Jiraiya, otherwise Kakashi wouldn't have needed to die to discover it. Secondly, Pain said he was never pushed so far -- you'd expect Jiraiya whose SM was exactly the same, or similar, to have at least pushed Pain like Naruto did.

But, above all else, I really need to loop back to the "mastery" part. Consistently in this manga we've seen the difference between mastered and unmastered forms and jutsu, this applies to completed and incompleted jutsu too:
- incomplete FRS vs complete FRS
- KCMv1 vs KCMv2
- Incomplete forms of Susanoo vs Perfect Susanoo
- Incomplete Juubi vs complete Juubi
- Hashirama/Madara's powers separately vs when they're unified (Rinnegan-SM Madara)
- Amaterasu vs Enton Kagutsuchi
- Danzo's Izanagi vs Obito/Madara's
- Tobirama/Oro's Edo Tensei vs Kabuto's

The list goes on. Consistently the mastered/complete versions of the jutsu have dramatically outperformed the unmastered/incomplete versions. Sage Mode is no different, in fact, the statements I mentioned in this post as well as the arguments I proposed in the other 3 posts I linked you cement it this. 

If anything, comparing Naruto and Jiraiya's SM is like comparing Immortals Arc Naruto's FRS' to Pain Arc Naruto's FRS. Perhaps the gap is even wider considering Naruto has more reliable danger sensing and frog fu at much higher levels (shared vision wasn't a persistent problem which made Naruto run away).

Lastly, if the difference isn't so huge, then why make every Senjutsu user we saw after (Kabuto, Hashirama and Madara) have perfect versions of Sage Mode when an imperfect one wasn't that much difference? Even from a story perceptive, assuming the gap isn't terribly huge doesn't make sense.


----------



## Soul (Apr 23, 2019)

Sorry for taking this long to reply Turrin. Been pretty busy but I think you need to hear this.



Turrin said:


> What I’d like to accomplish is to get a once good poster to realize he shouldn’t go around lying about a statement.



This is a pseudo anonymous forum to debate about fictional characters on a manga made for teenagers.
How mature do you think the average poster is?



> You can say it’s childish but the guys been following me around quoting my posts and off topic referencing this statement for months now. I could have just ignore list him and maybe that would have been better but I did used to like discussing things with Munboy so I didn’t want to do that. After explaining to him multiple times my stance and how the statement doesn’t exist, this has become my only option.



Oh but there is another option. It's fairly simple:
Recognize that Munboy is either not willing to concede on something he is wrong or/and is trolling you, then move on to the next debate. You know said fact doesn't exist, I know it doesn't exist. He probably knows, too. It doesn't really matter.
You are taking this way too literal.



> If you disagree fine, just don’t follow me around for a month quoting every post I make that isn’t even about this talking about how I’m not reading the “manga statement” that says Naruto Sage Mode offers a greater boost, which straight doesn’t exist



Why do you care if you know he is wrong?
This forum is to debate man, being right isn't the point. We come here to have fun.



> I think I’m being pretty fair considering the circumstances.



No, you are not.
You are taking this way too seriously and ridiculing yourself to an extent in the process.
Relax, ignore the guy (with out without blocking him) and post on another thread. It's something you should have learned to do about a decade ago.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 23, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I do not understand this analogy.
> 
> Though, it is suggested the end result is different, I've continually cited posts where I addressed this argument last year:
> 
> ...



I feel like Naruto has done more with senjutsu because he's had more ample panel time to show it off, whereas we've only seen one showing of Jiraiya and it's not truly a fair comparison when it comes to their elements. Jiraiya doesn't have much ninjutsu to compare it too outside of Goemon and Super Size Rasengan. I bet if we got a glimpse at Jiraiya's story prior to Naruto during his senjutsu training, we would have a different answer.

As for incomplete vs complete, I think they went to great lengths to set up Hashirama as the perfect shinobi and Madara as his perfect counterpart to see them anything less than perfect versions of senjutsu would be a blemish to their hype. Kabuto made it his goal to surpass Orochimaru and he was able to, I don't know if I would consider him a perfect sage because of his body modifications give him an unnerving fair advantage. 

As it stands, Naruto probably took a mountain of a leap ahead during War Arc with senjutsu, especially when he combined it with Kurama, that's a 3x multiplier that we know of for sure, per Kakashi. Honestly, I think that puts Naruto in a league of his own and that's what I meant by supercharger, whereas Jiraiya on his best day is like a turbo (his version of senjutsu). He's outclassed by Naruto during the War Arc.

During the Pain Arc, I don't think Jiraiya or Naruto where any different with their respective senjutsu, if anything I thought Jiraiya was stronger and fought with a harder handicap (no knowledge) but Pain was at a handicap when he fought Naruto. There was a great deal of things that had to go right for Naruto to win that scuffle, even then he lost as a sage. I can't really say Naruto > Jiraiya in Pain Arc when it comes to senjutsu performance wise.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 23, 2019)

Soul said:


> Sorry for taking this long to reply Turrin. Been pretty busy but I think you need to hear this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Soul I don’t think you understand that Munboy brings this up in all threads and all responses to me; regardless of whether the thread involves Jiraiya, Sage Mode, or otherwise. And I only cared because I used to have fun talking to him so thought I’d give him a chance before I ignored him.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 24, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> I feel like Naruto has done more with senjutsu because he's had more ample panel time to show it off, whereas we've only seen one showing of Jiraiya and it's not truly a fair comparison when it comes to their elements. Jiraiya doesn't have much ninjutsu to compare it too outside of Goemon and Super Size Rasengan. I bet if we got a glimpse at Jiraiya's story prior to Naruto during his senjutsu training, we would have a different answer.



However, if you look at those links a few things are pointed out:
- Jiraiya didn't master Sage Mode
- It also shows comparable jutsu -- Jiraiya had no reason to hold back against Pain
- It also shows how Jiraiya could not overcome abilities like shared vision whilst Naruto did

We may see a few good stuff, but things to only further cement Jiraiya's lack of mastery. 



> As for incomplete vs complete, I think they went to great lengths to set up Hashirama as the perfect shinobi and Madara as his perfect counterpart to see them anything less than perfect versions of senjutsu would be a blemish to their hype. Kabuto made it his goal to surpass Orochimaru and he was able to, I don't know if I would consider him a perfect sage because of his body modifications give him an unnerving fair advantage.



Kabuto did perfect the balance of Senjutsu, however. We this same effect with Mitsuki too. Kabuto did modify himself, that's true. But that is similar to Hashirama's own natural healing giving his SM an extra edge and Naruto's Kyuubi doing the same. All the perfect Sages seem to have some extra inherent ability to get an advantage over other Sages. Minato is the most normal perfect Sage, but has his own problems. 

Needless to say, the perfect vs imperfect, complete vs incomplete, the finished products have consistently shown to be better. Senjutsu is no different.



> As it stands, Naruto probably took a mountain of a leap ahead during War Arc with senjutsu, especially when he combined it with Kurama, that's a 3x multiplier that we know of for sure, per Kakashi. Honestly, I think that puts Naruto in a league of his own and that's what I meant by supercharger, whereas Jiraiya on his best day is like a turbo (his version of senjutsu). He's outclassed by Naruto during the War Arc.



Though, the manga tells us PA Naruto does outclass him. PA Naruto had limited time to show what he could do, and it was impressive. With more panel time, we saw he could keep up with V1 Raikage, his sensing was more amazing than we thought that he even had jutus like frog smash which use pure NE. Apart from using Kurama's chakra, the only new thing WA SM Naruto got was a longer SM and the ability to use 3 FRS before running out. 
Kurama's chakra is only a 3x multiplier with the chakra he dishes out to comrades, its likely a lot more. Similar comparison to Jiraiya's SM and Naruto's, actually.



> During the Pain Arc, I don't think Jiraiya or Naruto where any different with their respective senjutsu, if anything I thought Jiraiya was stronger and fought with a harder handicap (no knowledge) but Pain was at a handicap when he fought Naruto. There was a great deal of things that had to go right for Naruto to win that scuffle, even then he lost as a sage. I can't really say Naruto > Jiraiya in Pain Arc when it comes to senjutsu performance wise.



The knowledge hardly made a difference. When Jiraiya obtained knowledge (shared vision and Preta absorbing), he felt his option was to hide and hope Nagato underestimates his illusion. Jiraiya completely dismissed Ninjutsu and Taijutsu as options. With the same knowledge, Naruto did not dismiss these options.

I'd say Naruto had a harder situation. Jiraiya fought a Pain, and struggled, against 2 sets of Rinnegan which were sharing sight. Naruto was fighting against 5 sets of fully functional Rinnegan which Fukasaku suggested was beyond Jiraiya's ability. 

The most damning evidence: Kakashi confirmed that Asura and Deva's powers were not part of Jiraiya's intel on Pain. This means the two strongest Paths were not used i.e. Pain did not feel he needed them against Jiraiya. Whereas with Naruto he felt he needed Deva Path. 

IMO it is very tough to say SM Jiraiya is comparable to SM Naruto considering all this.


----------



## Soul (Apr 25, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Soul I don’t think you understand that Munboy brings this up in all threads and all responses to me; regardless of whether the thread involves Jiraiya, Sage Mode, or otherwise. And I only cared because I used to have fun talking to him so thought I’d give him a chance before I ignored him.



Which means you are taking him too seriously.
Just do your thing man.


----------



## Mithos (Apr 26, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> SM naruto blitzes the asura  path but SM jiriya gets blitzed by the asura  path



A blind-side from behind is not a blitz.


----------



## Azula (Apr 26, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The most damning evidence: Kakashi confirmed that Asura and Deva's powers were not part of Jiraiya's intel on Pain. This means the two strongest Paths were not used i.e. Pain did not feel he needed them against Jiraiya. Whereas with Naruto he felt he needed Deva Path.



Asura fired a missile at Jiraiya and Fukaksaku. The landscape also shows several craters and destroyed towers.

Them not giving intel is simply due to being pushed into a position where they can only escape instead of properly fighting.

Deva's powers are confusing enough, Kakashi didn't understand it when it was used at first. Running away from all 6 wouldn't give them the time to analyze anymore.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 26, 2019)

Azula said:


> Asura fired a missile at Jiraiya and Fukaksaku. The landscape also shows several craters and destroyed towers.



Could've easily been done by Animal Realm, that's the only conclusion we can draw given Jiraiya's intel had _*nothing *_on Demon Realm. Asura fired a fist, not a missile, at Jiraiya and Fukasaku. By then the fight was over. 



> Them not giving intel is simply due to being pushed into a position where they can only escape instead of properly fighting.



Then not giving intel on Deva and Asura is simply due to the fact that those abilities were not used to fight them.



> Deva's powers are confusing enough, Kakashi didn't understand it when it was used at first. Running away from all 6 wouldn't give them the time to analyze anymore.



Kakashi immediately understood it after being hit with both ST and BT; he was able to also find the 5 second window. Kakashi was also able to deduce Demon Path's power. How? Unlike Jiraiya, those Paths actually used their powers on Kakashi. 

Jiraiya didn't even push the strongest Paths.


----------



## Hazuki (Apr 26, 2019)

Just want to say that when pa said " jiraiya boy wasn't abble to mastered sm "
he said that without a fusion of ma and pa

so for people who have trouble to understand , jiraiya need ma and pa to mastered sennin mod to a certain degree !

that why even minato said to naruto " you mastered sennin mod like jiraiya sensei "
he knew that jiraiya mastered sennin mod too but he knew that he need ma and pa to reach that perfect form

so when pa said that jiraiya wasn't abble to mastered it 
he mean ALONE 
jiraiya can reach a perfect sennin mod ability ALONE 
that why he fuse with ma and pa


----------

