# RM Naruto vs Sasuke



## joshhookway (Jun 5, 2013)

Location: Plain
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: BM
SOM: IC
Distance: 40 M


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## ueharakk (Jun 5, 2013)

Guided Fuuton Rasenshuriken x 13 or guided bijuurasengan x 13 gg.

not to mention that fact that current KCM Naruto is even more broken since Kurama can gather and create KCM chakra while Naruto is in that mode.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 6, 2013)

Amaterasu and all of its Enton variants won't even touch Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto. That's a given, and Sasuke's recent feats with the aforementioned technique certainly haven't changed that (it was only as fast as the Rasenshuriken, or so it seemed).

Sasuke will most definitely need to rely on Susano'o to defend against the latter's super-fast Shunshin, ala the Fourth Raikage, but Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto has a few more tricks up his sleeve rather than direct assaults. He can form a dozen clones, each with a great enough chakra capacity to throw a Wind Style: Rasenshuriken with little effect on his chakra reserves - in fact, each clone should technically be capable of wielding at least two given that the original Naruto did so in the confrontation with Nagato and Itachi.

Basically, over two dozen Rasenshuriken. Feats-wise, Sasuke's Susano'o can't even survive one. His so-called 'unbreakable defense' will be completely obliterated, and his EMS techniques won't do a damned thing to change that.


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## trance (Jun 6, 2013)

If KCM Naruto beats EMS Sasuke, then just what is Sasuke gonna do when he fights Naruto and Naruto goes BM? He'll get raped within .5 seconds.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2013)

Lazers said:


> If KCM Naruto beats EMS Sasuke, then just what is Sasuke gonna do when he fights Naruto and Naruto goes BM? He'll get raped within .5 seconds.


From feats and portrayal, KCM Naruto is still far stronger than EMS Sasuke. Sasuke's new Susano'o isn't going to even hit Naruto, Naruto has far more firepower than Sasuke put together, has Futon: Rasenshuriken and Cho Mini Bijudama available to blow it down. And finally if it comes to a physical confrontation, Sasuke gets his ass handed to him by Naruto's superior strength and speed-even his Chidori Gatana won't get through Naruto's shroud.

Until Sasuke gets Perfect Susano'o, he simply can't compete.


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## trance (Jun 6, 2013)

Perfect Susanoo would probably close the gap. Madara himself said PS is on par with a bijuu in power. Or was just _his_ PS he was talking about?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Perfect Susanoo would probably close the gap. Madara himself said PS is on par with a bijuu in power. Or was just _his_ PS he was talking about?


Perfect Susano'o in general. Though Madara is the only EMS user which possesses it.


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## trance (Jun 6, 2013)

If Minato gives Naruto the 2nd half of Kurama's chakra like some say he will, Sasuke's definitely gonna be need PS.


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## Trojan (Jun 6, 2013)

Lazers said:


> If Minato gives Naruto the 2nd half of Kurama's chakra like some say he will, Sasuke's definitely gonna be need PS.



but does he have all that huge chakra for the PS? 
Sasuke hasn't been known for his huge chakra!!!
but, I guess Kishi does not care anymore. lol


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## trance (Jun 6, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> but does he have all that huge chakra for the PS?
> Sasuke hasn't been known for his huge chakra!!!
> but, I guess Kishi does not care anymore. lol



Who knows what the EMS has done for Sasuke (besides eliminating his chance of going blind). I'll guess we'll see what it can do in the fight against Madara.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 6, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Amaterasu and all of its Enton variants won't even touch Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto. That's a given, and Sasuke's recent feats with the aforementioned technique certainly haven't changed that (it was only as fast as the Rasenshuriken, or so it seemed).



Watch as I debunk your argument with a single panel.

Naruto couldn't even react to Amaterasu.

Please start using the actual manga to present your argument.



> Sasuke will most definitely need to rely on Susano'o to defend against the latter's super-fast Shunshin, ala the Fourth Raikage, but Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto has a few more tricks up his sleeve rather than direct assaults. He can form a dozen clones, each with a great enough chakra capacity to throw a Wind Style: Rasenshuriken with little effect on his chakra reserves - in fact, each clone should technically be capable of wielding at least two given that the original Naruto did so in the confrontation with Nagato and Itachi.


Naruto's super-fast Shunshin?

Yea, when is the last time he blitz anyone?

Kisame, and....

Clones can be dealt with easily.


Sasuke can also wield it naturally.

It's funny you boast about KCM Naruto's speed but Sasuke's been keeping up with him just fine.

What Naruto hasn't utilized shushin?

Neither has Sasuke.




> Basically, over two dozen Rasenshuriken. Feats-wise, Sasuke's Susano'o can't even survive one. His so-called 'unbreakable defense' will be completely obliterated, and his EMS techniques won't do a damned thing to change that.


It can?

Post a panel of a Rasenshuriken breaking a Susano?

Post a panel of this Susano being breached.

Lol, what has FRS done to any defensive technique to warrant it being capable of dealing with Susano?(Please stop using Danzo's feat people, they ain't the same jutsu)

It failed miserably against Sandame Raikage last I check, and Sandame Raikage doesn't have the feats of Susano.

Do you think FRS is stronger than this?

Susano tanked it just fine.

He's clearly capable of implementing Enton into his standard move set.

Naruto is looking for the money shot with FRS? Sasuke can swing a sword and set Naruto on ablaze.

Distance or Range....

No matter how you slice it, Sasuke holds the advantage.

And last I check FRS isn't that fast.

Finally, you people do know this Sasuke is going to match BM Naruto right?
Those theories regarding Sasuke obtaining the Rinnegan, SM, etc. etc. to match current Naruto were false.

Sasuke is currently matching Naruto feat for feat and there's NO POWER UP FOR HIM IN SIGHT.(He's yet to reach his full potential with this one)

Good old fashion application seems to be the direction Kishi is heading.

He may get a few modifications here and there, but the potential to match BM Naruto clearly lies with mastery with what he currently has access too.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 6, 2013)

Why jump into it before the next several chapters?

Sasuke most obviously is going to showcase a new improved arsenal and style with his snake, and Naruto most obviously is going to showcase a new style of fighting with Gamakichi- aside from the fact he's about to awaken Rikudo powers.

This is literally a time in the manga where everyone from Konoha is improving on an extreme scale. 

...So you decide to put the two strongest against each other prematurely? As far as I'm concerned, everything that is said in this debate is completely irrelevant.


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## Coldhands (Jun 6, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Do you think FRS is stronger than this?
> 
> Susano tanked it just fine.



I don't want to get myself involved into this too much but even fodders with initial 0-tailed Kyubimode tanked Tenpechii, just like Susano:
fine

Do you think fodders with initial Kyubimode can tank a direct FRS hit? 

We'v seen how insane Juubi's durability is. It tanked it's own Bijudama. Twice. With barely any damage. And we'v already seen how Naruto and the alliance cut through Juubi's tails with FRS.

Can initial Kyubimode fodders and Susano tank Juubi's Bijudama?

I know you can be reasonable, there's no shame in being wrong from time to time. Even one FRS can definitely do major damage to Susano, there's no denying it.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 6, 2013)

JuubiSage said:


> I don't want to get myself involved into this too much but even fodders with initial 0-tailed Kyubimode tanked Tenpechii, just like Susano:
> [1]
> 
> Do you think fodders with initial Kyubimode can tank a direct FRS hit?


Then Kudo's to Kyubimode 0.

And FRS doesn't have any breaching feats.

But several breaching failures.



> We'v seen how insane Juubi's durability is. It tanked it's own Bijudama. Twice. With barely any damage. And we'v already seen how Naruto and the alliance cut through Juubi's tails with FRS.


Cutting the Jubi's tail, not it's main body.

It failed to breach Raikage.


The same Raikage whose body is compared to steel.

Blood iron.

.

And Susano was proven to be harder than and Kimimaru's bones.



> Can initial Kyubimode fodders and Susano tank Juubi's Bijudama?


Is FRS on the level of Bijudama?

Check out the comment here.

Considering that was what Naruto was trying to utilize it after FRS failed, I doubt it.



> I know you can be reasonable, there's no shame in being wrong from time to time. Even one FRS can definitely do major damage to Susano, there's no denying it.


Being wrong?

I think you spoke too soon.


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## Kai (Jun 6, 2013)

It's relatively equal despite many of these inflated claims about Naruto's clones and physical capability.

The reality is, separate from battledome fantasy, that Naruto's KCM clones can't all flash blitz at the speeds he demonstrated against Kisame and A - it simply isn't within his ability as we saw Naruto's clones fight throughout the entirety of this war without tapping into that level of speed that has now apparently become an occurrence of only short and extreme bursts/situations. 

The writing is all over the wall that Sasuke can keep up with KCM Naruto. This chapter and the last have already played with that comparison. Sasuke marveled at Naruto's control over Kurama's chakra just as Naruto marveled at Sasuke's control over the black flames. They are very comparable in power. Enton is still a _major_ concern for Naruto, a canonical expression from the character himself that can't be ignored.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 6, 2013)

so you didnt restrict sasuke at all? current base sasuke is more than a match for kcm naruto. dear god, an unrestricted ems sasuke one shots kcm naruto.


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## Stermor (Jun 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> It's relatively equal despite many of these inflated claims about Naruto's clones and physical capability.
> 
> The reality is, separate from battledome fantasy, that Naruto's KCM clones can't all flash blitz at the speeds he demonstrated against Kisame and A - it simply isn't within his ability as we saw Naruto's clones fight throughout the entirety of this war without tapping into that level of speed that has now apparently become an occurrence of only short and extreme bursts/situations.
> 
> The writing is all over the wall that Sasuke can keep up with KCM Naruto. This chapter and the last have already played with that comparison. Sasuke marveled at Naruto's control over Kurama's chakra just as Naruto marveled at Sasuke's control over the black flames. They are very comparable in power. Enton is still a _major_ concern for Naruto, a canonical expression from the character himself that can't be ignored.



uhm not really you make the mistake of thinking naruto's clones can't use their shunsin.. when they have used it everytime they needed.. 

then there is the fact that kcm naruto doesn't even ahve to go all out to go faster then sasuke can react.. there is a huge gap between them.. 

then there is the fact that the cloaks would not be bothered by flames.... and seeing sasuke's control over the flames is alot different between actually beeing equal(that is a really wacky fanfic lol).. 

no sasuke is horrible outclassed by naruto..


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## ueharakk (Jun 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> It's relatively equal despite many of these inflated claims about Naruto's clones and physical capability.


How many clones can naruto make?
How fast can each clone move?
What jutsu can each clone use?
How much chakra does each clone have?
Does a fresh KCM Naruto have as much chakra as the one who made the KCM clones?
Can Kurama create KCM chakra while Naruto uses that mode?



Kai said:


> The reality is, separate from battledome fantasy, that Naruto's KCM clones can't all flash blitz at the speeds he demonstrated against Kisame and A - it simply isn't within his ability as we saw Naruto's clones fight throughout the entirety of this war without tapping into that level of speed that has now apparently become an occurrence of only short and extreme bursts/situations.


who's arguing that it's a one-sided match due to Naruto's clones being able to flashblitz?



Kai said:


> The writing is all over the wall that Sasuke can keep up with KCM Naruto.


characters don't always move at their fastest speeds... since base naruto was keeping up with the same sasuke that was keeping up with KCM Naruto, you'd have to argue that base naruto is as fast as KCM Naruto in order for Sasuke to be Naruto's equal in that department.



Kai said:


> This chapter and the last have already played with that comparison. Sasuke marveled at Naruto's control over Kurama's chakra just as Naruto marveled at Sasuke's control over the black flames. They are very comparable in power.


from a subjective view about what the author is trying to portray.  It could be that at the end of the day, Sasuke pulls out EMS Jutsu far beyond what he has been shown to do in order to be on par with KCM Naruto.  That's why right now I and I think a lot of posters on this thread are arguing with feats only until we get more from Sasuke (which is typical battledome mentality). 

 I think most would agree with your view that Kishi is portraying him and KCM Naruto as equals.



Kai said:


> Enton is still a _major_ concern for Naruto, a canonical expression from the character himself that can't be ignored.


Not much of a concern based on Sasuke's feats and how they stack up to Naruto's arsenal.


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## bsteves33 (Jun 6, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> so you didnt restrict sasuke at all? current base sasuke is more than a match for kcm naruto. dear god, an unrestricted ems sasuke one shots kcm naruto.



Lol ur joking right? Base sasuke is more than a match for KCM naruto? This is a case of wanking at its best.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 6, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Watch as I debunk your argument with a single panel.
> 
> Naruto couldn't even react to Amaterasu.
> 
> Please start using the actual manga to present your argument.



Does not contradict, sorry. Naruto going 'whoa!' could have just as been easily been a panicked reaction to the Amaterasu landing within vicinity, given that it has a reputation for spreading extremely quickly. 

Or he was simply surprised that Itachi used Amaterasu. Not seeing where he 'failed' to react.



> Naruto's super-fast Shunshin?
> 
> Yea, when is the last time he blitz anyone?



Having proved to be faster than Fourth Raikage with his top-speed punch, which itself had blitzing capacity against the likes of, ahem, Sasuke himself, who unfortunately hasn't given me reason to say his reactions have improved since that time, given his lack of feats in that department thus far.

So, yes, Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto's Shunshin is highly dangerous to the Uchiha.



> Kisame, and....
> 
> Clones can be dealt with easily.



Um, that's cool and all, but we have no idea how fast the Blaze Release: Yasaka no Magatama is. Tagging Zetsu bodies doesn't lend any sort of credence to having the speed to catch Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto clones who are at the _very least _as fast as the Fourth Raikage in his initial Lightning Shroud.



> Sasuke can also wield it naturally.



And that's supposed to do what? Through panel depiction alone, that technique is only about as fast as the Futon: Rasenshuriken and even the clones of Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto handily outspeed that level. They can dodge it with absolutely no trouble.



> It's funny you boast about KCM Naruto's speed but Sasuke's been keeping up with him just fine.



He has? Since Sasuke arrived at the battlefield, Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto has done exactly three things: a) Throw a Futon: Rasenshuriken at a giant Ten-Tails clone b) Catch a falling Sai with his Chakra Arm and c) Summon Gamakichi.

How do any of those instances indicate what you're trying to claim?



> What Naruto hasn't utilized shushin?
> 
> Neither has Sasuke.



Neither fighter utilizing Shunshin doesn't lend any sort of credence towards: thereby Sasuke can keep up with Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto just fine. 

That was one terrible leap of logic you just made. 



> It can?



Based on what we've seen? Yes.



> Post a panel of a Rasenshuriken breaking a Susano?



You realize this is a really asinine way of refuting an argument, right? 

It's like saying, 'Post a panel of a Tailed Beast Bomb breaking through a ribcage Susano'o. See, you can't do it, I win.'



> Post a panel of this Susano being breached.



It has no durability feats that would grant it a higher level than the feats demonstrated by Sasuke's Susano'o all the way back in the Kage Summit Arc.

Sorry, but as I've said before, Sasuke's Susano'o is very much lacking in feats involving durability, hence why Futon: Rasenshuriken for now can penetrate it. I could very well be proven wrong next chapter, but as it stands, my claim remains valid.



> Lol, what has FRS done to any defensive technique to warrant it being capable of dealing with Susano?(Please stop using Danzo's feat people, they ain't the same jutsu)



Uh, have 665-707 kilotons of raw destructive power, in other words, a town-level+ attack? Sasuke's Susano'o hasn't ever survived an attack *remotely* close to that scale.



> It failed miserably against Sandame Raikage last I check, and Sandame Raikage doesn't have the* feats *of Susano.



In what sense? 



> Do you think FRS is stronger than this?



Um, Madara's Susano'o =/= Sasuke's version. The former's V2 version is every bit as likely of being superior to Sasuke's fully-formed iteration as being equal, or inferior.

It'd be incorrect to scale Sasuke to the likes of Madara.



> He's clearly capable of implementing Enton into his standard move set.
> 
> Naruto is looking for the money shot with FRS?* Sasuke can swing a sword and set Naruto on ablaze*.
> 
> Distance or Range....



Yes, right, the slashes of Sasuke's Susano'o have been shown to be_ so _fast.

Oh wait, they haven't done absolutely anything yet. What are you talking about?



> And last I check FRS isn't that fast.



Doesn't need to be. Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto's Shunshin that was > V2 Fourth Raikage is all the speed Naruto needs to get past Sasuke's reactions and ram his Susano'o in the back with a Futon: Rasenshuriken.



> Finally, you people do know this Sasuke is going to match BM Naruto right?
> Those theories regarding Sasuke obtaining the Rinnegan, SM, etc. etc. to match current Naruto were false.



Contrary to your argument to belief, we have no idea how Sasuke will eventually stack to BM Naruto. Again, you're arguing mainly on assumptions that Kishimoto would write with such an approach; you're basically debating with conjecture.

Never mind how Sasuke's level will finally end up at has no relevance to this thread's question.



> Sasuke is currently matching Naruto *feat for feat *and there's NO POWER UP FOR HIM IN SIGHT.(He's yet to reach his full potential with this one)



Yeah, sure he has.


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Perfect Susano'o in general. Though Madara is the only EMS user which possesses it.



Well, Madara is the only other EMS that we know of, period.

And you know what? What if Sasuke's Susano'o with his EMS already IS Perfect Susano'o?
I mean, Sasuke seems to have PERFECTED the jutsu?

And even if we have Perfect Susano'o, who's to say it will do anything to a Kurama Shroud? That thing is all sorts of broken.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2013)

How isn't the Futon: Rasenshuriken NOT fast IP? It _crosses an entire mountain range in less than a single fucking second._



TheGreen1 said:


> Well, Madara is the only other EMS that we know of, period.
> 
> And you know what? What if Sasuke's Susano'o with his EMS already IS Perfect Susano'o?
> I mean, Sasuke seems to have PERFECTED the jutsu?
> ...


Sasuke doesn't have perfect Susano'o. No legs, no giant size, no nothing.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 6, 2013)

Outside of Shunshin, their speed shouldn't be noticeably different. Sasuke's reaction time probably isn't quite up to par, though. If Naruto uses any Kage Bunshin (and let's face it- he probably will), he'll be splitting his chakra and thereby cutting his Shunshin speed, making him more accessible to Sasuke's attacks.

Sasuke can also use Enton to restrict Naruto's movement across the battlefield. In doing so, he can set up Kirin, too; fast as Naruto is, I doubt he'll be avoiding that completely. He may avoid enough of it to survive, though he won't be touching Sasuke at all as long as Susano'o is up.

That said, the outcome really depends on how this fight plays out and is probably one of those "it can go either way" kind of matches.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How isn't the Futon: Rasenshuriken NOT fast IP? It _crosses an entire mountain range in less than a single fucking second._



If the OBD calcs hold any merit, any shinobi upwards of Kakashi's level could do that casually on-foot.

Granted, a KCM FRS is probably considerably faster than an SM FRS.


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 6, 2013)

Anyhoo, RM Naruto should suffice. Hell, we've seen Sound Genjutsu work on Sasuke before, especially done by Sages, so Frog Song has a good chance of ending Sasuke right then and there. 

Still, even if we restrict that, Sasuke has no answer for multiple FRS('s?) thrown by various RM Naruto clones. Not to mention, the Chakra Arms will be giving Sasuke a real hard time, especially if Naruto decides to do the Sandusky Reach-Around and hit Sasuke from Underground while Sasuke's understandably heckled by a few other RM Clones.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 7, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Does not contradict, sorry. Naruto going 'whoa!' could have just as been easily been a panicked reaction to the Amaterasu landing within vicinity, given that it has a reputation for spreading extremely quickly.



Naruto wasn't just going "Whoa" 

He failed to remove himself from his current position before Amaterasu successfully landed on it's intended target in which he originally thought was himself.

Look at Naruto's comment, he thought Itachi missed.

So it wasn't just the "Whoa!" good sir.

It was the "Whoa!" "His Amaterasu missed?"

That informs the reader that had Itachi been aiming at Naruto he would have successfully been hit by the jutsu.



> Or he was simply surprised that Itachi used Amaterasu. Not seeing where he 'failed' to react.


No, please look at the panel again.

He wasn't surprised Itachi used Amaterasu.


In fact Nagato warned Naruto prior too. 

Besides Naruto has been hit by much slower attacks.

Perhaps I should make the list for you.


In fact Nagato warned Naruto prior too

In fact Nagato warned Naruto prior too

In fact Nagato warned Naruto prior too

In fact Nagato warned Naruto prior too

I didn't even link the many times he got hit by Raikage.

Naruto is fast, yes but AVOIDING ALL OF SASUKE'S ATTACKS is never going to happen, period.



> Having proved to be faster than Fourth Raikage with his top-speed punch, which itself had blitzing capacity against the likes of, ahem, Sasuke himself, who unfortunately hasn't given me reason to say his reactions have improved since that time, given his lack of feats in that department thus far.



He's only faster than the fourth when successfully implementing shushin.

Neither the fourth or Naruto consistently move at high speeds.

And Sasuke reaction doesn't need to improve to react to Naruto.



He was able to react to V2 Raikage as well remember.

Sasuke has had no trouble keeping up with KCM Naruto, so I don't see where you're going with this.



> So, yes, Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto's Shunshin is highly dangerous to the Uchiha.





> Just like the Raikage's oh wait?
> 
> It's funny how you keep alluding to the Raikage, but you ignore that that very Raikage was disfigured by that Uchiha in question.
> 
> ...


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## Doge (Jun 7, 2013)

1.) Naruto makes 13 clones and proceeds to rape Sasuke.  He has no way of Amaterasu'ing all of them at once.

2.) Enton isn't touching Naruto.  Kishi blessed us with a Naruto that was supposed to be faster than V2 Raikage, yet his speed kept get stifled for plot reasons.  Unless of course, everyone reacts to V2 Raikage now.

3.) Susanoo can't tank multiple FRS's.


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2013)

Here's the bottom line. KCM Naruto and Current EMS Sasuke have been portrayed as equals in the war so far. KCM Naruto pulls out FRS and Sasuke pulls out Enton, that is a clear comparison by the author that these two jutsu are equivalent, only difference is unfortunately for Naruto Sasuke has the elemental advantage, luckily Naruto now makes up for that by being able to use Mini Bijuu Dama Rasengan and Shit like planetary Rasengan. Sure you can say that Naruto can pull out multiple FRS at once thus showing has more raw power, but Sasuke can and undoubtably will pull out larger Enton via his Stage 4 Susano'o. Also while Naruto seems to have the advantage in Summons, the appearance of random boss snake should tell someone that Kishi will pull any snake he needs to out of his ass for Sasuke. Also while Naruto can uses some impressive bursts of speed, Sasuke can turtle defend with Susano'o as he did against Raikage and honestly with the retecon where Sasuke now has his snake powers back it wouldn't surprise me if he could also use Oral Rebirth even w/o Orochimaru. 

Bottom line is Kishi clearly considers KCM Naruto equal to current Sasuke so Sasuke will pull out the powers necessary to not fall behind KCM Naruto. So the battle should realistically end in ether a tie or Naruto edging it with extreme difficulty. Naruto won't be able to win with anything less than extreme difficulty unless he went BM, which is restricted here, and by the time Naruto gather enough chakra to reenter BM I fully suspect Sasuke will have achieved another power up to match him - most like P-Susano'o.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 10, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That informs the reader that had Itachi been aiming at Naruto he would have successfully been hit by the jutsu.
> I didn't even link the many times he got hit by Raikage.
> 
> Naruto is fast, yes but AVOIDING ALL OF SASUKE'S ATTACKS is never going to happen, period.



With clones, yes, he's not going to avoid Amaterasu. We've seen that performing Multi-Shadow Clone Technique slows him down tremendously; on his lonesome, however, the Shunshin he used to surpass V2 Ei's top-speed punch is easily viable.

In which case, Sasuke isn't touching him at all. Or reacting to him, as far as I've seen.



> And Sasuke reaction doesn't need to improve to react to Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> He was able to react to V2 Raikage as well remember.



That's not reacting to V2 Raikage, that's Sasuke activating his Blaze Release as a fail-safe defense in case the former came swinging.

Fuck, we even have Karin confirming it as such on that same very page and you have the audacity to argue that? 



> Sasuke has had no trouble keeping up with KCM Naruto, so I don't see where you're going with this.



Both of them swinging their arms at the same time = Sasuke being able to keep up with Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto's Shunshin?

Am I reading this right? How did that panel even connote movement speed in the slightest?



> So, yes, Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto's Shunshin is highly dangerous to the Uchiha.[/COLOR]
> 
> Just like the Raikage's oh wait?
> 
> It's funny how you keep alluding to the Raikage, but you ignore that that very Raikage was disfigured by that Uchiha in question


.

Are you serious?

You think bringing up the Raikage is any sort of valid argument despite the fact that we only see Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto using his top-speed once and only trying to evade the Fourth, not attack him, and in the confrontation with the Third he was only trying to solidly land a Rasenshuriken (which he did)?



> Naruto's Shunshin hasn't been dangerous since Kisame, so please oh please stop referring to it as his saving grace, with little to no feats to support your claim.



Really? So Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto blatantly outperforming the Fourth Raikage's top-speed punch, which was casually faster than Amaterasu, means nothing just because we never see it again, despite the very obvious slow-down we see Naruto being affected by due to his performing Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu?

So by this logic, Base Jinchuuriki are as fast as Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto, and by extension, V2 Ei? 

Stop being intentionally obtuse. 



> We don't need to know how fast it is.



Uh, yes we do. They could be as slow as kunai and it would undermine the entirety of your excuse of an 'argument' given that no Nine-Tails Chakra clone is ever getting tagged by something of that speed.

Stop ignoring what needs to be proved and stop employing red herrings.



> And please note the performance of Naruto's clones.
> 
> Mr. I can't control my speed.



Do you think this is actually indicative of the performance general Nine-Tails chakra clone, or merely the effect of Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto being fatigued from hours of battle and losing focus?

Because we've never, ever seen such a similar blunder from another clone.



> URL="http://manga.anime-media.com/naruto/562/9/"]
> And Mr. here I come, oh wait my foot gets caught by a root[/URL].



Yeah, Mr. Black Zetsu made use of the ground. Kind of bothersome when you can't see it from underneath you.

Something Sasuke unfortunately can't make use of. 



> Imagine a unit under continuous heavy fire, so much so that they are unable to counter attack.
> 
> Sasuke can do the above while still being inside the protection of Susano.
> 
> ...



That's cool and all, chuckles, but the point is: you can't ever prove the speed of Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama, so your argument is essentially rendered meaningless.

I mean, we have no idea how fast they are, we've never seen its speed relative to something other than slow-as-fuck fodder, so why on earth are you trying to claim its capability of tagging clones as fast as V1 Raikage?

Come on, child.



> Note what I said, Sasuke is able to wield it.
> 
> Meaning if Naruto opts to engage him in CQC Sasuke would yield the advantage.



Why's that? If you read what I said, that particular Enton was only shown to be as fast as Rasenshuriken, something Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto can effortlessly dodge.

If so, why would Sasuke have the advantage in CQC? 



> Referring to speed good sir.



Exactly.

I analyzed every moment they've been seen together in the current battle with Juubi, and in every instance, Sasuke _hasn't_ been depicted as being as fast as a Shunshin or even general movement speed from Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto, so why are you trying to emphasize a baseless claim?

What I need you to do, is show me an instance in which both characters were shown to have equal speed in terms of movement speed, not speed of throwing projectiles. 



> But he is currently keeping up with Nine-Tails Naruto Chakara Naruto just fine.



He's not, you're just horribly misinformed.



> But we've yet to see FRS breaking Susano, so how can you support your thesis.



I'm talking about its calculated destructive capacity. Way above what Sasuke's Susano'o has been shown to tank thus far.

I'm not incorrect in my claim, I specifically stated _based on what we've seen._ As thus, based on what we've seen, FRS would obliterate it.



> No, it isn't.
> 
> Because you are allocating something you can't support.



Yes it is, because finding a specific panel of FRS making contact with Susano'o is not the only way my claim can have any sort of credibility.



> Tailed Beast Bomb has feats to indicate it capable breaching Susano'os ribcage.



Exactly. FRS does, in having 3.8 *megatons* (updated) of destructive capacity (Chibaku Tensei crater feat).



> Yet we can apply commons sense to indicate that it's much stronger defensively than it's previous forms.



Logically, yes. Strong enough to survive a 3.8 megaton FRS?

That's entirely another argument, something you can't support with the durability feats, or lack thereof, that Sasuke's fully-formed Susano'o has displayed thus far.



> Please leave your fanfiction at the door.
> 
> I only speak panel.
> 
> A town level attack, yet it couldn't put a scratch on Third Raikage? Yea, get the fuck out of here bro.



Wait, are you trying to refute by saying there's no possibility of FRS being a town-level attack because Sandaime Raikage managed to tank it?

Did it ever occur to you, dear child, that Sandaime Raikage was simply durable enough to take something of that scale unscratched?

Fuck, my sides. 



> Tanking attacks.



Sasuke's Susano'o has tanked a large-building to city-block attack from Gaara/Temari/Kankuro/Darui at best.

3.8 megatons, low city-level from an FRS is such an enormously higher scale that I'm absolutely flabbergasted you're even bothering to argue this.



> Can you validate that?
> 
> Susano'o is Susano'o mate.



Nope, given that Madara's ribcage deflected Raikage's Horizontal Chop without a scratch.

Whereas Sasuke, ahem, shattered to pieces. 



> Or at least that was Gaara implicates.



He was talking about its shape, not general strength. 

Are you really this bad at interpreting basic sentences and making logical inductions?



> Besides aren't you translating Raikage's feat, avoiding Amaterasu, to Naruto?
> 
> Naruto never indicated he's capable of avoiding Amaterasu, talk about double standards.



That was such a god-awful analogy, I'm surprised you thought it was clever to mention it. Then again, I shouldn't be.

Let's go through this slowly, Iphrozeni. Madara's ribcage Susano'o survived Raikage's Lightning Chop. Sasuke's did not, it was utterly destroyed. Therefore, it's incorrect to scale Sasuke's version to Madara's since the latter is stronger, right?

Following me? Good.

Now, your analogy is an absolute travesty since V2 Raikage dodged Amaterasu. So V2 Raikage > Amaterasu in speed, right? And if Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto outpaced V2 Raikage, therefore Naruto > Raikage > Amaterasu, right?

Make sense?



> They haven't done anything yet?
> 
> Please read the manga young man.
> 
> They've cut through a stone pillar, Kimimaru's harder than temper steel bones, and Kidamaru's threads.



I'm talking about speed, Christ.

Fuck, it's right in the part you quoted. 



> But not his reaction speed apparently.
> 
> Naruto failed to react to Amaterasu, that's manga canon.



A Naruto already drained from utilizing a ton of clones in battle. 

Clones aren't necessarily needed in this battle. Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto goes full-powered Shunshin on his ass, blitzes Sasuke, and beats him around like a red-headed stepchild.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jun 10, 2013)

> It failed to scratch Raikage.
> 
> 
> The same Raikage whose body is compared to steel.
> ...



...

Holy shit. This is an honest, actually serious argument from you.

Ladies and gentlemen, the crown jewel of the works of Iphrozeni. He somehow believes that the analogy Mabui made is meant to be taken literally.

Despite the fact that a goddamn Part 1 Genin had a technique capable of piercing steel.

Despite the fact that Part 1 Gaara's shield wasn't fazed by it.

Despite the fact that a Part 1 Sasuke's Chidori blew past it casually.

Despite the fact that a Part 1 Naruto's Rasengan is equal to that.

Despite the fact that Sage Naruto's Rasenshuriken should be entire magnitudes superior to that.

_Holy shit, I have no words._



> (Please start using the manga when presenting an argument)



And he even posts this! What a precocious child!



> You claim that Sasuke's Susano is not Madara's, yet you're treating Naruto FRS as if it was Danzo's Futton.



Uh, you got it wrong, I'm treating Naruto's FRS as if it's something much stronger than Danzo's Fuuton, as it is.

Here, genius, I'll give you this page if it helps you understand.



> You call foul on me using Madara's Susano to represent Sasuke's, yet you're using Ei's and Danzo's feats to represent Naruto's.



Yes, _because Ei was flat-out inferior to Naruto's speed._ Was Madara's? *No.*

Are you seriously *this* dense that you can't comprehend that?



> I never claimed I did.



Okay, but wait...



> But *I do know that Sasuke is going to match Naruto's feat for feat*, as he is currently doing.
> 
> But I do know it's going to be with the EMS, and not some third party power up in which wasn't promised.



You just contradicted yourself in the same three sentences. 



> It does, as if current Sasuke matches BM Naruto.
> 
> The idea that KCM Naruto being on current Sasuke's level would go down the drain, right?



Of course. Would that be valid, at this point in time? Of course not. We're debating using EMS Sasuke's current feats.


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 10, 2013)

Whoa now, I saw someone say that Clones can be dealt with Easily. I highly disagree, look at DatClone. 

A clone, beat a revived Kage, famous for not being able to be hurt and well known for his super speed. This is a man who took on a Bijuu by himself, and tied with it. And afterwards, lived to tell the tale. Actually, that Clone took on two Kage's and Madara. Imagine 14 or more of those... actually, I believe that Naruto can use much more than that now that Kurama is on his side. 14+ DatClone's, imagine how Broken Naruto would be against Sasuke.


----------



## Doge (Jun 10, 2013)

TheGreen1 said:


> Whoa now, I saw someone say that Clones can be dealt with Easily. I highly disagree, look at DatClone.
> 
> A clone, beat a revived Kage, famous for not being able to be hurt and well known for his super speed. This is a man who took on a Bijuu by himself, and tied with it. And afterwards, lived to tell the tale. Actually, that Clone took on two Kage's and Madara. Imagine 14 or more of those... actually, I believe that Naruto can use much more than that now that Kurama is on his side. 14+ DatClone's, imagine how Broken Naruto would be against Sasuke.



But...Susanoo is unbreakable and Amaterasu GG?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 11, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> With clones, yes, he's not going to avoid Amaterasu. We've seen that performing Multi-Shadow Clone Technique slows him down tremendously; on his lonesome, however, the Shunshin he used to surpass V2 Ei's top-speed punch is easily viable.



No it's not just above avoiding Amaterasu....

It's about avoiding Amaterasu, Enton, Kagutsuchi, eye contact, etc. etc.

And Naruto's shushin speed isn't consistent. 

Naruto's reactions speed hasn't proven to be on the level of Ei's, and more importantly he hasn't proven to be capable of performing in the matter you are suggesting he needs too in order to win.

If speed was as intricate of a part of Naruto's arsenal as you are suggesting, why oh why did he require Kakashi to land a hit on Obito.

Where was that speed here.

Where was that speed in the above exchange?

Did Biju Mode Naruto manage to blitz Madara here?



> In which case, Sasuke isn't touching him at all. Or reacting to him, as far as I've seen.


Because Sasuke didn't react to V2 Raikage?


Please read the manga.

The same Raikage you are alluding too...

Is the same Raikage who was about too....

If the above is not reacting, then I question your definition of reacting.



> That's not reacting to V2 Raikage, that's Sasuke activating his Blaze Release as a fail-safe defense in case the former came swinging.


You activated my trap card.

What is Minato doing here?

Activating Harashin before Raikage lands his hit correct?

What's so different about Sasuke's actions above?

Sasuke activated his fail-safe defense BEFORE RAIKAGE COULD CONNECT WITH HIS ATTACK.

That's reacting in every since of the word.



> Fuck, we even have Karin confirming it as such on that same very page and you have the audacity to argue that?


How does Karin words distract my statement?

This isn't exactly a debatable issue.

Sasuke was clearly able to activate a jutsu before RAIKAGE WAS CAPABLE OF CONNECTING WITH HIS OWN ASSUALT, much like a certain Minato.

That's defines reaction according to the dictionary.

-An action performed or a feeling experienced in response to a situation or event



> Both of them swinging their arms at the same time = Sasuke being able to keep up with Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto's Shunshin?


I don't recall using the word Shushin...

I simply arbitrated Sasuke has demonstrated no trouble keeping up with Nine-Tailed Chakara Mode Naruto.

And you keep arbitrating shushin, shuhin....

Forgetting that Naruto's usage of shushin isn't consistent.

You want to know the last time Naruto actually utilized the D rank skill?

Read the manga homeboy.

Roughly 25 chapters ago...

Yet you discuss it as if a primary go to skill for current Naruto?




> Am I reading this right? How did that panel even connote movement speed in the slightest?


Sasuke reached Sakura first correct?



> Are you serious?


Are you? Because thus far this argument has been one sided.

You haven't been exactly accurate on anything.



> You think bringing up the Raikage is any sort of valid argument despite the fact that we only see Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto using his top-speed once and only trying to evade the Fourth, not attack him, and in the confrontation with the Third he was only trying to solidly land a Rasenshuriken (which he did)?


What does this have to do with what you were responding too here?

I specifically cited there that Raikage's speed wasn't the be all end all of the bout with Sasuke, yet respond with this?

As I said before one sided affair.






> Really? So Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto blatantly outperforming the Fourth Raikage's top-speed punch, which was casually faster than Amaterasu, means nothing just because we never see it again, despite the very obvious slow-down we see Naruto being affected by due to his performing Multi-Shadow Clone Jutsu?


No, I'm referring to how you are using him.

You're not just citing Naruto is fast.

You're pitching the argument that Naruto is capable of avoiding ALL OF SASUKE'S ATTACKS CONSISTENTLY.

That idea itself is preposterous considering he's never been able to do that in a match against anyone.

Speed isn't much of a factor in Naruto's assaults, he's not Minato and he will never be.

Your slowing down because of clones theory is preposterous as well, considering shushin is a low level D  jutsu. That part one Sasuke was doing quite frequently.

And I don't specifically think part 1 Sasuke has 1/12 of the chakara capacity of current Naruto.

Excuses to mask the obvious.

Naruto isn't his pops period.

-snip-


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 11, 2013)

> What I need you to do, is show me an instance in which both characters were shown to have equal speed in terms of movement speed, not speed of throwing projectiles.


Look above.

Does Naruto appear to be outpacing Sasuke?

It's funny how you utilize this panel to compare the speed of enton and FRS, but not the general speed of KCM Naruto and Sasuke.

Sasuke was able to keep up and even outmaneuver V1 Raikage....

The very V1 Raikage in which you bragged Naruto clones have an equivalent speed too.

In fact Sasuke was the first to have a speed comparison to the Raikage....

C was also impressed with his ability to keep up with the Raikage.

So once again the ball is in your court Mr.

Prove that Naruto's KCM speed is too much for THIS SASUKE.

I'm willing to bet you couldn't.





> He's not, you're just horribly misinformed.


Panel says otherwise.

Panel > your opinion.




> I'm talking about its calculated destructive capacity. Way above what Sasuke's Susano'o has been shown to tank thus far.


Based on what.

They don't have a direct comparison.

What's FRS destructive capacity? It failed to scratch the Raikage.

But hell stab didn't.

In other words destructive capacity means little in determining the outcome of destroying Susano, as FRS > hell stab in destructive capacity, but the later succeeded where as the former didn't.

Sasuke's susano has actually dealt with DESTRUCTIVE ATTACKS quite well.

It's the incredibly strong precise attacks that have had more success against Susano.



> I'm not incorrect in my claim, I specifically stated _based on what we've seen._ As thus, based on what we've seen, FRS would obliterate it.


And what have we seen outside of failure from the FRS?

Where has FRS manage to breach anything?

It failed to do much against both the Raikage and Kyuubi.

I'm requesting the "What we've seen" because I already dispelled the notion that it could.



> Yes it is, because finding a specific panel of FRS making contact with Susano'o is not the only way my claim can have any sort of credibility.


Then find me a panel of FRS breaching any defense.



> Exactly. FRS does, in having 3.8 *megatons* (updated) of destructive capacity (Chibaku Tensei crater feat).


And what sources are you utilizing to validate such a claim?

Your head? 



> Logically, yes. Strong enough to survive a 3.8 megaton FRS?


But didn't the third Raikage manage tank the "3.8 megaton" FRS without a scratch?

What was his body compared too? Steel?

?

Guess what? Susano proved to be stronger than both steel and Kimimaro's bones.

I think it's safe to say Susano is > third Raikage defensively.

(The above is how you validate a point without direct evidence)

So please oh please get on my level before posting please.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jun 11, 2013)

> That's entirely another argument, something you can't support with the durability feats, or lack thereof, that Sasuke's fully-formed Susano'o has displayed thus far.


Don't need too.

FRS isn't breaching stage two Susano.

You have seen the video of Sasuke batting away FRS with this Susano right?

It's a none canonical clip from one of the games, so it isn't set in stone.

But it does not only support the idea of Susano dealing with Susano just fine, it's more proof than your little "3.8 megaton" argument.

What breaching feats of worth does FRS have?

It failed against the Raikage who represents Susano more than that of the pain bodies,mountains, Juubi's tails, etc. etc.






> Wait, are you trying to refute by saying there's no possibility of FRS being a town-level attack because Sandaime Raikage managed to tank it?


It's not just Sandaime Raiakge managing to tank it.

It's the idea of a NONE "TOWN-LEVEL" attack succeeding with FRS couldn't.

This was also a town level attack, but it too failed when this didn't.

Scale of the attack doesn't determine it's power.



> Did it ever occur to you, dear child, that Sandaime Raikage was simply durable enough to take something of that scale unscratched?


Read above.

Susano durability > Sandaime Raikage.

Susano > Steel = Sandaime Raikage.

Again "newborn" I'm one step ahead. Stop playing with grown folks. Stop believing you can go the distance against a vet.



> Fuck, my sides.


No thanks.




> Sasuke's Susano'o has tanked a large-building to city-block attack from Gaara/Temari/Kankuro/Darui at best.


Again Size does not determine potency of an attack.



> 3.8 megatons, low city-level from an FRS is such an enormously higher scale that I'm absolutely flabbergasted you're even bothering to argue this.


See above.



> Nope, given that Madara's ribcage deflected Raikage's Horizontal Chop without a scratch.


Madara's was using a more advance ribcage likely from stage 2 Susano.

Screen the difference good sir.

The one comparable to ribcage that was shattered by Raikage was this.

Much smaller than the one he produced above right?

The stage 2 ribcage for Sasuke's Susano is comparable to the one utilized against Raikage's attack.

(Please read the manga mate)




> He was talking about its shape, not general strength.


What? Read that panel again.

"If it's the same as Sasuke's it's useless to attack the outer armor"

That's a defensive comparison, not a shape one.



> Are you really this bad at interpreting basic sentences and making logical inductions?


Please stop the childish remarks.

Look at are arguments.

What have you been right about thus far?

You been man handled thus far.






> That was such a god-awful analogy, I'm surprised you thought it was clever to mention it. Then again, I shouldn't be.


It's not an analogy for starters.

It's more of a lack of double standards situation.



> Let's go through this slowly, Iphrozeni. Madara's ribcage Susano'o survived Raikage's Lightning Chop. Sasuke's did not, it was utterly destroyed. Therefore, it's incorrect to scale Sasuke's version to Madara's since the latter is stronger, right?


Read above, and then come back and holler at me.

You don't know what you're talking about and cannot validate any of your assessments.

FRS a town buster? Really?

3.8 megatons? 

Madara's Susano being above Sasuke's defensively? Where are you getting your facts.

You are incapable of using the manga to produce a seasoned argument for that continuing to wast my time against someone who was dead the first round is meaningless.

Maybe you should study the game taps, or listen to your long man.

Arguing against me without actually knowing what you're talking about isn't a very good idea because Iphr0z3nI can and will make that ass look bad like stretch marks.



> Following me? Good.
> 
> Now, your analogy is an absolute travesty since V2 Raikage dodged Amaterasu. So V2 Raikage > Amaterasu in speed, right? And if Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto outpaced V2 Raikage, therefore Naruto > Raikage > Amaterasu, right?
> 
> Make sense?



Reaction speed is what allowed Raikage to avoid Amaterasu.

And your comparison doesn't make sense because Naruto failed to react to Amaterasu, period.





> I'm talking about speed, Christ.
> 
> Fuck, it's right in the part you quoted.
> 
> ...



Prove that clones affect his shushin speed.



> Clones aren't necessarily needed in this battle. Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto goes full-powered Shunshin on his ass, blitzes Sasuke, and beats him around like a red-headed stepchild.


Your frustration has lead to illogical conjectures.

Naruto isn't blitzing shit, as he's never actually manage to successfully blitz a sharingan user in his life.

Start using the manga buddy, it does wonders.


----------



## Bonly (Jun 11, 2013)

With what has been shown KCM Naruto has been shown to be the stronger of the two.


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## Larcher (Jun 15, 2013)

I don't think Naruto's attacks are going to do anything to Sasuke in Susano maybe odama rasenghan barriage might able to break susano rib cage but definatly not Final form though even ameterasu isn't going to hit KCM which is basically implied sice Ei dodged ameterasu and KCM Naruto doged Ei's fasrest attck so we can gather Naruto's shunshin>Sasuke's Ameterasu  Naruto and the susano arrow is even slower so thats a no brainer he'd evade it with ease even Tsukyomi or any of Sasuke's genjustu will be broken by Naruto this is dependant if a semi- Perfect jin can have the kuruma pull them out of it nothing was specified against it so i think it's more likely he''l break out than not so Sasuke will keep trying to hit him but fail whilst naruto will be dodging and wouldn't be attempting to penetrete susano by this point and keep dodging him Naruto could keep this up longer than Sauce and would most likely outlast susnao more times than not the finish him form then on or he could cast that frog song Sauce whilst Sauce is in Susnao and it could be rather effective for Naruto as his speed would redeem the fact the sound wave is quite slow so Sauce couldn't evade.


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## Krippy (Jun 15, 2013)

Naruto wins with Extreme difficultly 7.5/10.

Outside of their Shunshin, their speed should be about the same, Naruto isn't outright blitzing Sasuke with Flash Shunshin, Susano'o actives much faster than that. Taijutsu should also be about even. 

Sasuke has entered a fray with Mountain+ characters, there's no way his Susano'o is less durable than Itachi's at this point, which tanked a 10MT Kirin back in the day. It should be able to take some punishment. With ranged Enton attacks, his Susano'o can destroy FRS's and keep clones from getting too close.

Enton control is battlefield control. Sasuke can surround clones and shank them from a blind spot with an Enton spikes if need be.

There is also the option of Kirin, which Naruto isn't avoiding with Manga knowledge.

So, pretty much this:



Kai said:


> It's relatively equal despite many of these inflated claims about Naruto's clones and physical capability.
> 
> The reality is, separate from battledome fantasy, that Naruto's KCM clones can't all flash blitz at the speeds he demonstrated against Kisame and A - it simply isn't within his ability as we saw Naruto's clones fight throughout the entirety of this war without tapping into that level of speed that has now apparently become an occurrence of only short and extreme bursts/situations.
> 
> The writing is all over the wall that Sasuke can keep up with KCM Naruto. This chapter and the last have already played with that comparison. Sasuke marveled at Naruto's control over Kurama's chakra just as Naruto marveled at Sasuke's control over the black flames. They are very comparable in power. Enton is still a _major_ concern for Naruto, a canonical expression from the character himself that can't be ignored.



This isn't a stomp as most would like to assume anymore. That's why Atlantic Storm hasn't locked this thread yet.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 15, 2013)

Pretty much, yeah. 

Naruto may still have the superior feats, but Sasuke is quickly catching up to the point where the match would no longer be considered too unbalanced to debate. Along with that, is Kishimoto's literary intent. It's fairly obvious that he and Sasuke are meant to be considered equal. Both have expressed surprise at each other's new abilities, sized each other up, and have roughly been depicted as equals - with even the two combining attacks together. I cannot imagine Naruto just speed-blitzing him, either personally or through the use of kage bunshins. It's unrealistic. Furthermore, while Sasuke, at the moment, does not have perfect Susano'o to match up to Naruto's bijū mode, that's not really relevant here because it's restricted anyway. As far as I'm concerned, the two are equal, with maybe Sasuke having the upper hand because of how pesky Amaterasu is to counter. Ei could dodge it, but this was back when Sasuke was still inexperienced and still using the Mangekyō Sharingan. Sasuke's elemental manipulation abilities are a lot higher now, and he can condense the flames into physical weapons to hold, which means a close quarter scuffle with Sasuke could mean getting hit.

Along with that, Sasuke also has Susano'o, which he can use in tandem with Amaterasu, be it coating it with flames (though, that probably wouldn't do much good against rasenshuriken) or using it with his weapons. Naruto is definitely fast, possibly faster than Sasuke (though this depends on how you interpret the panel where Sasuke reached Sakura before Naruto), but I don't think he could endlessly dodge enton: yasaka no magatama while attacking at the same time.

EDIT:

Also, cool it down with the debate a little. I don't want to have to lock this thread, or ban anybody.


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## Stermor (Jun 15, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Here's the bottom line. KCM Naruto and Current EMS Sasuke have been portrayed as equals in the war so far. KCM Naruto pulls out FRS and Sasuke pulls out Enton, that is a clear comparison by the author that these two jutsu are equivalent, only difference is unfortunately for Naruto Sasuke has the elemental advantage, luckily Naruto now makes up for that by being able to use Mini Bijuu Dama Rasengan and Shit like planetary Rasengan. Sure you can say that Naruto can pull out multiple FRS at once thus showing has more raw power, but Sasuke can and undoubtably will pull out larger Enton via his Stage 4 Susano'o. Also while Naruto seems to have the advantage in Summons, the appearance of random boss snake should tell someone that Kishi will pull any snake he needs to out of his ass for Sasuke. Also while Naruto can uses some impressive bursts of speed, Sasuke can turtle defend with Susano'o as he did against Raikage and honestly with the retecon where Sasuke now has his snake powers back it wouldn't surprise me if he could also use Oral Rebirth even w/o Orochimaru.
> 
> Bottom line is Kishi clearly considers KCM Naruto equal to current Sasuke so Sasuke will pull out the powers necessary to not fall behind KCM Naruto. So the battle should realistically end in ether a tie or Naruto edging it with extreme difficulty. Naruto won't be able to win with anything less than extreme difficulty unless he went BM, which is restricted here, and by the time Naruto gather enough chakra to reenter BM I fully suspect Sasuke will have achieved another power up to match him - most like P-Susano'o.



while this is likely true for plot purposes.. by feats it still is not.. therefor rm naruto will continue to rape sasuke untill sasuke gets feats of reacting to people as fast as rm naruto.. which is one of the biggest isue's with sasuke.. he had a very clear feat of not beeing able to react to v2 EI. and since everybody and there mother by now reacted to v2 Ei.. sasuke reaction speed sucks(for a high tier).. and it is going make it extrmely hard for him to hit naruto.. 

and well then you have the hax that is kage bunshin but that is a hole other story...


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## tanman (Jun 15, 2013)

If Naruto didn't have Kage Bunshin, Sasuke would win. And I know that's a big if.
But KCM Naruto can clone himself twelve times and have those clones make a hundred more base clones, which can make man-sized rasengans. To me that's just too much. Sasuke's stamina has greatly improved and he can wipe out entire battalions of clones with Amaterasu, while keeping Susano'o up indefinitely. However, Susano'o can't endure a beating like that. The numbers are just too high. The only way to beat someone like that is with bigger scale. Just look at the scale of Madara, Hashirama, Juubi, Obito or BM Naruto's attacks (the only people I believe can beat KCM Naruto).


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## richard lewis (Jun 15, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Pretty much, yeah.
> 
> Naruto may still have the superior feats, but Sasuke is quickly catching up to the point where the match would no longer be considered too unbalanced to debate. Along with that, is Kishimoto's literary intent. It's fairly obvious that he and Sasuke are meant to be considered equal. Both have expressed surprise at each other's new abilities, sized each other up, and have roughly been depicted as equals - with even the two combining attacks together. I cannot imagine Naruto just speed-blitzing him, either personally or through the use of kage bunshins. It's unrealistic. Furthermore, while Sasuke, at the moment, does not have perfect Susano'o to match up to Naruto's bijū mode, that's not really relevant here because it's restricted anyway. As far as I'm concerned, the two are equal, with maybe Sasuke having the upper hand because of how pesky Amaterasu is to counter. Ei could dodge it, but this was back when Sasuke was still inexperienced and still using the Mangekyō Sharingan. Sasuke's elemental manipulation abilities are a lot higher now, and he can condense the flames into physical weapons to hold, which means a close quarter scuffle with Sasuke could mean getting hit.
> 
> ...



If naruto fights smart he simply cannot lose this fight...... 

1. naruto has been fighting for hours dividing his chakra amount all of the alliance and all of those KB's he was making didn't start to get tired until just a few chapters ago. Naruto should be able to fight for at least an hour straight going all out. There is simply no way that sasuke can fight for as long as naruto can.

2. Naruto can fight this battle in the shadows using smoke bombs, KB's, and other guerrilla tactics I dont see how sasuke is going to handle that? how will he enton naruto when he cant find him? and even if he does locate naruto how will he know which is the real one and which is a clone?

3. naruto could endlessly spam KB's, rasengan, and FRS forcing sasuke to endlessly spam susanoo and enton to keep up..... Naruto will always come out on top in this scenario b/c he has more chakra and can spam his attacks longer.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 15, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> If naruto fights smart he simply cannot lose this fight......
> 
> 1. naruto has been fighting for hours dividing his chakra amount all of the alliance and all of those KB's he was making didn't start to get tired until just a few chapters ago. Naruto should be able to fight for at least an hour straight going all out. There is simply no way that sasuke can fight for as long as naruto can.



Of course Sasuke can't fight for as long as Naruto; stamina has always been Naruto's advantage over Sasuke and just about everybody else in the manga. What Sasuke has over Naruto is his ability to remain calm in the heat of battle and analyze his opponent, before coming up with an appropriate counter. 



> 2. Naruto can fight this battle in the shadows using smoke bombs, KB's, and other guerrilla tactics I dont see how sasuke is going to handle that?



Naruto doesn't even do that any more, but that's besides the point. Sasuke can see through smoke bombs with the Sharingan, and regardless of whether or not Naruto is hidden, Sasuke's area of effect is now so ridiculous he could probably hit him just by randomly setting things on fire with Amaterasu.



> 3. naruto could endlessly spam KB's, rasengan, and FRS forcing sasuke to endlessly spam susanoo and enton to keep up.....



Again, Naruto hasn't used tajū kage bunshin no jutsu to defeat an opponent in a while now; at least, not a serious opponent. The last time I recall him using it was against Madara, and that was only to counter his mokuton jutsu. Sasuke doesn't need to endlessly 'spam' Susano'o; it's a sustained jutsu, not something he has to activate, and then deactivate. Moreover, Amaterasu/enton has been confirmed to be stronger than rasenshuriken now, so simply coating Susano'o with flames would be a logical counter.

I'm not saying Sasuke would win here, but you're kind of ignoring Sasuke's main advantage here, which is his ability to think carefully in battle. Naruto may have higher stamina and physical strength, but Sasuke is the superior when it comes to making tactics (Naruto has done impressive strategies before, but his level and consistency is often variable and, at best, dubious) and now has much higher defense.

Sasuke is written, and intended, as Naruto's rival in this manga. His equal, parallel, and ultimately, his final hurdle and battle. There is no way that the gap between the two would be at the point where Naruto could simply endlessly throw clones and jutsu at him and actually defeat him that way.


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## ueharakk (Jun 15, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Naruto doesn't even do that any more, but that's besides the point.
> 
> Again, Naruto hasn't used tajū kage bunshin no jutsu to defeat an opponent in a while now; at least, not a serious opponent. The last time I recall him using it was against Madara, and that was only to counter his mokuton jutsu. Sasuke doesn't need to endlessly 'spam' Susano'o; it's a sustained jutsu, not something he has to activate, and then deactivate. Moreover, Amaterasu/enton has been confirmed to be stronger than rasenshuriken now, so simply coating Susano'o with flames would be a logical counter.


Naruto hasn't used Tajuu kagebunshin while in KCM to defeat an opponent because he never could do it against a powerful opponent.

Once he split his chakra 13 ways, he couldn't use it against Nagato, against Neo Pain rikudou, or against GM.  He didn't want to kill Obito and not only had Kamui as as counter to him, but already outnumbered him 4 to 1, the battle against Madara was offpanel, and there's no reason to divide his BM chakra when fighting the juubi.

So the argument that 'it's not IC for naruto to use tajuu kagebunshin' is a very unsupported and poor one.

Use the "it's not IC" argument and Madara only uses PS against Hashirama or after he's been killed 2-3 times in a fight.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Sasuke is written, and intended, as Naruto's rival in this manga. His equal, parallel, and ultimately, his final hurdle and battle. There is no way that the gap between the two would be at the point where Naruto could simply endlessly throw clones and jutsu at him and actually defeat him that way.


sure sasuke is written and intended to be Naruto's rival in the manga, however that in no way means that they are equals or even close to being equals at every point in the story.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto hasn't used Tajuu kagebunshin while in KCM to defeat an opponent because he never could do it against a powerful opponent.
> 
> Once he split his chakra 13 ways, he couldn't use it against Nagato, against Neo Pain rikudou, or against GM.  He didn't want to kill Obito and not only had Kamui as as counter to him, but already outnumbered him 4 to 1, the battle against Madara was offpanel, and there's no reason to divide his BM chakra when fighting the juubi.
> 
> So the argument that 'it's not IC for naruto to use tajuu kagebunshin' is a very unsupported and poor one.



Fair enough, but I still disagree that Naruto simply throwing waves of clones at Sasuke would do any good. A clone army, unless against a large foe, has generally always been useless and less effective than simply having one clone (which does make sense, mind). Sasuke's crowd control abilities these days are also so good that I'm pretty sure he would be able to wipe out a bunch of them almost instantly with a shot of Amaterasu, or with an enton enhanced Susano'o weapon.



> sure sasuke is written and intended to be Naruto's rival in the manga, however that in no way means that they are equals or even close to being equals at every point in the story.



It's pretty obvious the two are equal right now. The only obvious advantage Naruto has over Sasuke is the full Kyūbi mode, which is restricted in this.


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## ueharakk (Jun 15, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Fair enough, but I still disagree that Naruto simply throwing waves of clones at Sasuke would do any good.


One wave, 13 KCM clones each with V1 Ei/Sandaime Raikage level speed, each that can spam guided FRS.   The waves of clones that didn't do any good were base clones trying to punch their target to death.



Atlantic Storm said:


> A clone army, unless against a large foe, has generally always been useless and less effective than simply having one clone (which does make sense, mind).


When was the last time anyone fodderized a bunch of clones?  And what kind of clones were they? 



Atlantic Storm said:


> Sasuke's crowd control abilities these days are also so good that I'm pretty sure he would be able to wipe out a bunch of them almost instantly with a shot of Amaterasu, or with an enton enhanced Susano'o weapon.


His best crowd control ability has taken out a bunch of white zetsus who were running at him to try and taijutsu him to death.  Unless a KCM clone is portrayed as at the level of a white zetsu and will try and kill sasuke by running at him and punching him, then by portrayal and feats, it does not follow.
Amaterasu?  Hebi Sasuke was able to outrun it for a while, Sasuke has to focus on his target, when he focuses on on the others end him.




Atlantic Storm said:


> It's pretty obvious the two are equal right now. The only obvious advantage Naruto has over Sasuke is the full Kyūbi mode, which is restricted in this.


The only thing that's "obvious" is that current EMS Sasuke is portrayed as KCM Naruto's equal.  However, you are using EMS Sasuke's previous feats in order to try to validate that portrayal argument via feats which requires you to downplay Naruto's own.  

When Kishi fleshes out current EMS Sasuke's full abilities, they could be far greater than what he has shown so far (after all, his best showing has been against fodder white zetsus), so trying to fit feats with portrayal when the character who's being portrayed hasn't been fleshed out yet is fallacious IMO.

And this:


Atlantic Storm said:


> *Naruto is definitely fast, possibly faster than Sasuke* (though this depends on how you interpret the panel where Sasuke reached Sakura before Naruto), but I don't think he could endlessly dodge enton: yasaka no magatama while attacking at the same time.



KCM Naruto is "possibly faster than Sasuke"?  Because he got to Sakura later than Sasuke?  Wasn't Base Naruto keeping up with Sasuke earlier?  So by that logic, wouldn't Base Naruto be faster than KCM Naruto?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> One wave, 13 KCM clones each with V1 Ei/Sandaime Raikage level speed, each that can spam guided FRS.   The waves of clones that didn't do any good were base clones trying to punch their target to death.



Does Naruto even have the chakra capacity to use three kage bunshin in the Kyūbi chakra mode on top of all of them using fūton: rasenshuriken? I personally don't think so, but you might think differently. 



> When was the last time anyone fodderized a bunch of clones?  And what kind of clones were they?



You said yourself it's been a while since Naruto has used tajū kage bunshin no jutsu properly against someone, so this question is kind of redundant. Every time it's been used, the clone army has always been dispersed almost instantly after it's been used.



> His best crowd control ability has taken out a bunch of white zetsus who were running at him to try and taijutsu him to death.



This was only with enton: yasaka no magatama. Given how casually he did it (and by actual feats), it's pretty obvious he can do a lot more than that. Yasaka no magatama is nowhere near Sasuke's best crowd control ability.



> Unless a KCM clone is portrayed as at the level of a white zetsu and will try and kill sasuke by running at him and punching him, then by portrayal and feats, it does not follow.
> Amaterasu?  Hebi Sasuke was able to outrun it for a while, Sasuke has to focus on his target, when he focuses on on the others end him.



By Amaterasu, I meant just making a giant blade of it and swinging it through the group of clones to take a bunch of them out in one go. 



> The only thing that's "obvious" is that current EMS Sasuke is portrayed as KCM Naruto's equal.



Isn't Kyūbi chakra mode Naruto just this Naruto? Bijū mode is restricted here.



> KCM Naruto is "possibly faster than Sasuke"?  Because he got to Sakura later than Sasuke?  Wasn't Base Naruto keeping up with Sasuke earlier?  So by that logic, wouldn't Base Naruto be faster than KCM Naruto?



I was referencing both movement speed and attacking speed, if that wasn't clear. I think Naruto has Sasuke beat in movement speed, but Sasuke has faster attacks.


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## ueharakk (Jun 15, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Does Naruto even have the chakra capacity to use three kage bunshin in the Kyūbi chakra mode on top of all of them using fūton: rasenshuriken? I personally don't think so, but you might think differently.


If Kagebunshin splits the user's chakra evenly between the clones, and one KCM clone after traveling to the battlefield was able to use FRS, rasengan planet, and make a bijuurasengan, then all of the kagebunshins he made (after spamming KCM for more than half a day) would logically have to have that much chakra as well.




Atlantic Storm said:


> You said yourself it's been a while since Naruto has used tajū kage bunshin no jutsu properly against someone, so this question is kind of redundant. Every time it's been used, the clone army has always been dispersed almost instantly after it's been used.


You didn't answer the question.  When was the last time someone fodderized tons of clones, what clones were they, and how did they fodderize them?




Atlantic Storm said:


> This was only with enton: yasaka no magatama. Given how casually he did it (and by actual feats), it's pretty obvious he can do a lot more than that. Yasaka no magatama is nowhere near Sasuke's best crowd control ability.


What is Sasuke's best crowd control ability then?  And how does that stack up to the abilities of the KCM clones?




Atlantic Storm said:


> By Amaterasu, I meant just making a giant blade of it and swinging it through the group of clones to take a bunch of them out in one go.


in order for that to be true, you'd have to argue that the KCM clones would be in the range of the sword, don't have the speed/reactions to dodge said sword or don't have counters to the sword swing.  And while Sasuke is swinging his giant blade at a bunch of clones, the real Naruto and other clones end him with FRS or bijuurasengan.




Atlantic Storm said:


> Isn't Kyūbi chakra mode Naruto just this Naruto? Bijū mode is restricted here.


yes, KCM is what I'm referring to.  



Atlantic Storm said:


> I was referencing both movement speed and attacking speed, if that wasn't clear. I think Naruto has Sasuke beat in movement speed, but Sasuke has faster attacks.


The only attacks of Sasukes that are faster than Naruto's are the arrows and amaterasu.  If you don't mean that by attacking speed, then can you elaborate?


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## Ashi (Jun 25, 2013)

Naruto isn't using shunshin he's just that fast


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## Illusive Frame (Jun 25, 2013)

Naruto wins easy-mid difficulty. 

Sasuke gains more feats, cool. So does KM Naruto and that isn't even his strongest form.


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## Shoukry (Jun 25, 2013)

Naruto's got this.


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## Rosencrantz (Jun 25, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Does Naruto even have the chakra capacity to use three kage bunshin in the Kyūbi chakra mode on top of all of them using fūton: rasenshuriken? I personally don't think so, but you might think differently.



You reading the manga? Dat clone used a FRS, planetary rasengan, and attempted bjuu dama. Naruto himself used a FRS around the same time. Another clone used a FRS fired at Kimmi. Another one used it against Black Zetsu. That is already 3 clones and the real Naruto using 4 FRSs. Each clone has the same amount of chakra. Each one can use a FRS. If one of the 12-13 clones made FRS then each clone can. So yes that means each clone is capable of using at least one FRS as well as some other jutsu. It doesn't matter what you personally think in this matter. The manga disagrees with you.


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