# Kisame vs. Itachi



## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2013)

While a agree that Itachi is the stronger of the partners, just how big is the gap... because I find it quite small

*Distance:* 30m
*Location:* Grassy field
*SoM:* IC
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Restrictions:* None

*Stipulations:* 
Itachi is healthy, Kisame starts out with Samehada wrapped


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 23, 2013)

Kisame should win this. He can use his mega shark blast that will eat any of Itachi's jutus.


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 23, 2013)

...What the fuck.

Itachi literally just rapes Kisame with Genjutsu or puts up Susano'o and blitzes him.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 23, 2013)

Yeah Itachi can pressure Kisame with Genjutsu relentlessly. To fight Itachi, he'll need _someway_ to avoid the Sharingan's illusions. Otherwise, Kisame will be stuck with avoiding eye contact, which is going to lessen his combat efficiency in what is already an uphill battle.

At range, Yata Mirror in theory should prevent Daikoden from being an issue. Susano'o in general stops Kisame's entire arsenal if that's the case. Amaterasu is too fast for Kisame, and though Samehada may be able to absorb it, it would still create an opening for the efficient Uchiha to end this with his absorption-proof sword. Kisame isn't the fastest of characters; he isn't dodging Itachi's quick strikes last minute while recovering from the damage of the black flames.

Up close, Itachi's faster, and has the Sharingan & Susano'o to null any gap in skill & strength respectively. Susano'o grabs and mauls Kisame should the fight venture into a CQC exchange.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2013)

Rocky handled the match-up well, but one final note:

Samehada has been shown to have a mind of it's own, as it has moved on it's own even in a direct trajectory against Killer B's Raiton sword. 

Should Kisame be caught in an illusion, it's doubtful Samehada doesn't sense and bite him to obstruct the chakra in-balance. The only question is whether or not it will happen in time. Though, we can expect Kisame to attempt to avoid eye-contact.

Kisame really only has (1)physical strength, (2)bodily durability and (3)stamina on Itachi. Similar to Orochimaru (Snake-like), all three categories provided by the inhumane creature Kisame is (Shark-like). Every other possible category to define a ninja's power scale Itachi overlaps, he simply could never duplicate the benefits of someone who is born a beast. Ironically, both beasts were assigned as his partner in the Akatsuki, suggesting he was the best suited to control them.


----------



## egressmadara (Apr 23, 2013)

Genjutsu
Amaterasu
Kisame is not getting past Susanoo with the Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror

The gap is considerable.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 23, 2013)

Samehada will break Kisame out of genjutsu. Mega Shark eats ninjutsu, so Itachi is screwed there.


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 23, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kisame really only has (1)physical strength, (2)bodily durability and (3)stamina on Itachi. Similar to Orochimaru (Snake-like), all three categories provided by the inhumane creature Kisame is (Shark-like). Every other possible category to define a ninja's power scale Itachi overlaps, he simply could never duplicate the benefits of someone who is born a beast. Ironically, both beasts were assigned as his partner in the Akatsuki, suggesting he was the best suited to control them.



Orochimaru was Sasori's partner, not Itachi's.

Itachi's only partner was Kisame.

Unless that's not what you were trying to say, in which case, I misunderstood.



joshhookway said:


> Samehada will break Kisame out of genjutsu.



Samehada did not break B out of Itachi's Genjutsu.

And that won't work against Tsukuyomi, anyway.



> Mega Shark eats ninjutsu, so Itachi is screwed there.



Or Itachi just nullifies it with the Yata no Kagami.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 23, 2013)

Itachi is stronger than kisame. However, If Kisame started with his shark form that will make the battle
very hard for Itachi and he might lose. 

I'll say Itachi wins more time than not though.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2013)

egressmadara said:


> Genjutsu



Kisame can created 3 _Mizu Bunshin no Jutsu_ (with 30% chakra)..... i'd think that would be a HIGHLY problematic for landing genjutsu 



egressmadara said:


> Amaterasu



_Amaterasu_ can be absorbed via Samehada. Before we start saying it can't, Samehada merely complained about the heat, yet still foddered Itachi's _katon_. It was merely the sword showing discomfort nothing more



egressmadara said:


> Kisame is not getting past Susanoo with the Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror



Why can't Kisame just drown Itachi via _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_, and if _Sasuno'o_ is up.... just wait for Itachi to collapse? Seeing last time I checked winning via attrition is a legitement win



egressmadara said:


> The gap is considerable.



On paper at least... Kisame is _realistically_ capable of beating Itachi under quite fair circumstances (disregarding hype & portrayal)

So no the gap is not considerable


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 23, 2013)

The water dome would be a bad idea, as Itachi is a Suiton user himself and can most likely make use of Kisame's own Suikoudan no Jutsu to transport himself around at high speed (the same way Kisame escaped Gai & co. at the Waterfall of Truth). I'm sure he'd at least be able to make it to the surface of the water dome by swimming up instead of _away_ from Kisame.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 23, 2013)

Kisame shouldn't use water dome. Kisame's mega shark is enough. It can absorb Itachi's ninjutsu and kill Itachi.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The water dome would be a bad idea, as Itachi is a Suiton user himself and can most likely make use of Kisame's own Suikoudan no Jutsu to transport himself around at high speed (the same way Kisame escaped Gai & co. at the Waterfall of Truth). I'm sure he'd at least be able to make it to the surface of the water dome by swimming up instead of _away_ from Kisame.



Recreating the technique like Kakashi via sharingan replication is one thing, but applying/manipulating it in a way only Kisame has ever shown (and specializes in) is an entirely different thing

And even if he could..... Kisame is realistically the fastest character in his element (i.e underwater), Itachi is not out swimming him inside his own dome. Secondly if Kisame wanted to troll he could always out swim Itachi to the top of the dome, making escape impossible


----------



## Rocky (Apr 23, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Why can't Kisame just drown Itachi via _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_, and if _Sasuno'o_ is up.... just wait for Itachi to collapse? Seeing last time I checked winning via attrition is a legitement win



This isn't Pokemon. If Itachi activates Susano'o, he isn't required to wait for Kisame to set up the waterdome.

Itachi is one of, if not the most battle efficient Shinobi the Manga has to offer. If Susano'o is used, it's most likely going to be up close, and from there Kisame doesn't have the time to do _anything_ except try to defend against the Totsuka with Samehada (which won't work). This is the way Itachi thinks. He won't _let_ Kisame gain the upper hand here.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This isn't Pokemon. If Itachi activates Susano'o, he isn't required to wait for Kisame to set up the waterdome.
> 
> Itachi is one of, if not the most battle efficient Shinobi the Manga has to offer. If Susano'o is used, it's most likely going to be up close, and from there Kisame doesn't have the time to do _anything_ except try to defend against the Totsuka with Samehada (which won't work). This is the way Itachi thinks. He won't _let_ Kisame gain the upper hand here.



When did I say Itachi is going to *let* Kisame _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_? How does battle efficiency correlate to being able to counter/defend against an attack? 

Itachi is a close-mid range fighter, Kisame canonically has and this time round, the incentive to play the long range nuke game. He is going to do EVERYTHING in his power to keep Itachi away from him

Kisame's has been partnered with Itachi for some 7 years, he knows that going CqC is the absolute last thing he wants to do with Itachi. Kisame is going to create distance and either A) drown Itachi via _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_ or B) nuke him with _Suiton: Senshokukō_ & _Daikodan_

All three of which IC he opts for in the face of danger, can be used faster than Itachi can materalize a Lv4 _Sasuno'o_, and more importantly... be spammed


----------



## Rocky (Apr 23, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> When did I say Itachi is going to *let* Kisame _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_? How does battle efficiency correlate to being able to counter/defend against an attack?
> 
> Itachi is a close-mid range fighter, Kisame canonically has and this time round, the incentive to play the long range nuke game. He is going to do EVERYTHING in his power to keep Itachi away from him
> 
> ...



"Everything in Kisame's power" is a rather ambiguous way to word things. Sure, if he get's far enough away he can begin wearing Itachi with mass Suitons...but it's only 30 meters. 

Itachi has knowledge as well, I assume you agree? Well then he won't fuck around. Amaterasu knocks Kisame down...and while Samehada absorbs the flames off him and heals him from the damage, Itachi flickers up and impales him with the Totsuka. Itachi's on a different level than Kisame; the Manga has made that evidently clear.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> "Everything in Kisame's power" is a rather ambiguous way to word things. Sure, if he get's far enough away he can begin wearing Itachi with mass Suitons...but it's only 30 meters.



Which essentially comes down to can Itachi close the distance, or rather... can Kisame keep said distance



Rocky said:


> Itachi has knowledge as well, I assume you agree? Well then he won't fuck around. Amaterasu knocks Kisame down...and while Samehada absorbs the flames off him and heals him from the damage, Itachi flickers up and impales him with the Totsuka. Itachi's on a different level than Kisame; the Manga has made that evidently clear.



Assuming Kisame can't react to _Ameterasu_ (or Samehada via chakra buildup) then yeah he'd be hit. But Kisame seems like the person who'd "pull an Ei" against _Amaterasu_ (be unfazed) while Samehada healed him..... I mean the man was smiling when his midsection was obliterated by a V2 lariat and when his sharks ate him alive 

And again Itachi cannot manifest Totsuka instantly.... hell he can't even manifest a full V3 _Sasuno'o_ instantly. 

Like I said.... manga portryal yes Itachi is unequivocally seen as the strongest but on paper (i.e battledome) the gap is by no means massive


----------



## Rocky (Apr 23, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Which essentially comes down to can Itachi close the distance, or rather... can Kisame keep said distance



Indeed. Just keep Itachi flicker feats in mind when you make judgement on who controls what distance will be during the fight.





> Assuming Kisame can't react to _Ameterasu_ (or Samehada via chakra buildup) then yeah he'd be hit. But Kisame seems like the person who'd "pull an Ei" against _Amaterasu_ (be unfazed) while Samehada healed him..... I mean the man was smiling when his midsection was obliterated by a V2 lariat and when his sharks ate him alive



Sure he might not be in terrible pain, but being knocked of your feet in general is going to create an opening for Itachi. The fact that he has to heal just makes that opening bigger. Itachi can capitalize on shit like that, just look at what happened with Nagato.



> And again Itachi cannot manifest Totsuka instantly.... hell he can't even manifest a full V3 _Sasuno'o_ instantly.
> 
> Like I said.... manga portryal yes Itachi is unequivocally seen as the strongest but on paper (i.e battledome) the gap is by no means massive



Susano'o manifestation speed won't be a problem. Look how perfectly Itachi timed it against Nagato.

No gap between any two Kage-level Characters is "massive" until you go beyond Kage tier. Whether or not you place Itachi there is your business, but it's been made clear that Itachi is the stronger of the pair by a good margin.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Indeed. Just keep Itachi flicker feats in mind when you make judgement on who controls what distance will be during the fight.



Kisame was physically capable reacting and  defending against to Killer B's V1 & V2 blitz attempts, both are of which are arguably superior to Itachi's _Shunshin_ feats

Seeing the former was able to cross a chunck of mountain range, while the base Kabuto could not anticipate (the reason Edo Nagato absorbed the cloak after being hit)



Rocky said:


> Sure he might not be in terrible pain, but being knocked of your feet in general is going to create an opening for Itachi. The fact that he has to heal just makes that opening bigger. Itachi can capitalize on shit like that, just look at what happened with Nagato.



Again even thats debatable.... Kisame is a physically in the same tier as people like Killer B & Ei. And if he's holding Samehada, the healing process is literally instant & seamless

Nagato was tagged the first time because he choose to. He canonically used _Shinra Tensei_ before _Amaterasu_ was ready on top of Edo's not being able to attack other Edo's



Rocky said:


> Susano'o manifestation speed won't be a problem. Look how perfectly Itachi timed it against Nagato.



Itachi had _Sasuno'o_ up *prior* to attacking Nagato not after. He was playing the side lines, blinded his summons and then attacked with a full V2 _Sasuno'o_ as a precautionary measure. We have zero timeframe of when he entered _Sasuno'o_ before attacking Nagato 



Rocky said:


> No gap between any two Kage-level Characters is "massive" until you go beyond Kage tier. Whether or not you place Itachi there is your business, but it's been made clear that Itachi is the stronger of the pair by a good margin.



Both Kisame & Itachi are beyond your normal "kage tier" Kisame is on the mid-high end of the high tier. Save people like Minato, Itachi, Killer B or someone in that realm... he's stronger than 95% of the verse 

And again portrayal is fine... but that doesn't correlate to battledome standings.


----------



## Legend777 (Apr 24, 2013)

Kisame flat out said that he can't win against Jiraiya.

Itachi by feats and hype is quite clearly stronger than Jiraiya (Equals in the worst case) &  Kisame himself thought that Itachi could take him on .

So yeah with manga knowledge and fair starting distance Itachi should win .


----------



## Ersa (Apr 24, 2013)

We have a direct statement from Kisame that he'd be no match for Jiraiya but Itachi would. Feats support this. Author portrayal clearly implies Itachi to be much stronger.

I'd say a there is a tier gap between them. Two tiers if it's Edo Itachi.

Itachi wins mid difficulty. Yata can nullify Daikoden, Tsukiyomi is too dangerous for Kisame and combined with Amaterasu will end him.


----------



## Kai (Apr 24, 2013)

Samehada doesn't possess the intelligence to identify a genjutsu on Kisame anywhere near the time it takes Itachi to deal fatal damage to either his body or his mind.

If Kisame cuts eye contact, Amaterasu becomes his worst nightmare.


----------



## Stermor (Apr 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The water dome would be a bad idea, as Itachi is a Suiton user himself and can most likely make use of Kisame's own Suikoudan no Jutsu to transport himself around at high speed (the same way Kisame escaped Gai & co. at the Waterfall of Truth). I'm sure he'd at least be able to make it to the surface of the water dome by swimming up instead of _away_ from Kisame.



ye uhm itachi beeing superior in suitons to kisame would be kinda wonky.. 

and lol at saying itachi is faster then kisame underwater.. 

anyway waterdome is the ability kisame needs to use to drown itachi.. amaterasu is going to to slow to burn through all the water, susanoo is going to be slowed down in water.. all the while kisame is faster, can attack from all angles (at the same time) and while susanoo will defend against it.. 

itachi is going to run out of steam faster then kisame.. 

anyway itachi's best option is ending the matchup really quick with a tsukiyomi.. 

ones the waterdome shows up itachi is going to be in alot of trouble..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 24, 2013)

Itachi'd 2 panel this.
Yes the gap is big.

You might want to change the scenario a bit, to make things fair. 

Example : Kisame has absorbed Hachibee's chakra and has the dome out already. Itachi starts in the middle of the dome, Kisame is in shark mode and has full intel on Itachi.

^
Above Scenario would be worth debating.


----------



## raizen28 (Apr 24, 2013)

Joker J still solos


----------



## Thunder (Apr 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Samehada will break Kisame out of genjutsu.



Highly doubtful. Samehada may be a sentient sword, but has it shown much in the way of intelligence? Hardly. When it comes to dispelling genjutsu, knowing how to employ the partner method is really only half the battle. Samehada must first recognize that his master is caught, and quickly at that.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 24, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> While a agree that Itachi is the stronger of the partners, just how big is the gap... because I find it quite small
> 
> *Distance:* 30m
> *Location:* Grassy field
> ...



I would say that the gap isn't too big as well. Itachi is just a tier ahead of Kisame IMO.

I'd say Itachi should win this more times then not quite comfortably. To make it quite simple Kisame really doesn't have a good shot at beating an unrestricted Itachi more times then not. Kisame hasn't shown the speed to outright dodge Ama so he's likely to be hit which leaves him open for a follow up attack which could end him. Kisame hasn't shown much defense against genjutsu so he should be under it for quite a few seconds which leaves him open to an follow up attack which could end him, if he gets caught that is. Kisame can't do much against Itachi's Susanoo unless he goes into CQC as the Yata Mirror makes Kisame's Sutions useless. Kisame going into CQC against Itachi with Susanoo up is setting him up to be cut up quite a bit by Itachi's sword. Kisame's good but he can't do too well against the MS jutsu and basic genjutsu leaves him open to many attacks.


----------



## Samehadaman (Apr 24, 2013)

Kisame would need some scenario advantage and/or Itachi restrictions.

As example, without genjutsu and on top of a lake at the most convenient range, Kisame could win if he had full knowledge (I don't see how amaterasu can work against the water dome, and Kisame can outrange the totsuga sword).

But in a fair one vs one Itachi wins.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 24, 2013)

Thunder said:


> Highly doubtful. Samehada may be a sentient sword, but has it shown much in the way of intelligence? Hardly. When it comes to dispelling genjutsu, knowing how to employ the partner method is really only half the battle. Samehada must first recognize that his master is caught, and quickly at that.



If Samehada can give chakra, it should be able to recognize genjutsu and give chakra.

Still, Itachi has no counter to mega shark blast.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> If Samehada can give chakra, it should be able to recognize genjutsu and give chakra.



How does giving chakra away (an action motivated by pure instinct) somehow translate to Samehada recognizing that genjutsu is in play? 



> Still, Itachi has no counter to mega shark blast.



If Kisame is unable to deal with genjutsu here, _Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu_ will only defeat Itachi in Kisame's mind.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 24, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Still, Itachi has no counter to mega shark blast.



Yata no Kagami nullifies ninjutsu.


----------



## ArmorOfWisdom (Apr 24, 2013)

Itachi takes this with mid difficulty, the weasel is just too haxed for the shark.

Amaterasu.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 24, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yata no Kagami nullifies ninjutsu.



Mega Shark Blast absorbs ninjutsu. Susanoo will be absorbed.


----------



## Ababeel (Apr 24, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> Kisame flat out said that he can't win against Jiraiya.
> 
> Itachi by feats and hype is quite clearly stronger than Jiraiya (Equals in the worst case) &  Kisame himself thought that Itachi could take him on .
> 
> So yeah with manga knowledge and fair starting distance Itachi should win .



That's not a proof because they said jman > Itachi & Kisame at the same time
so Itachi is weaker than Jman as well. However, Kisame has indeed made it clear
that Itachi is stronger than him.


----------



## Legend777 (Apr 25, 2013)

Ababeel said:


> That's not a proof because they said jman > Itachi & Kisame at the same time
> so Itachi is weaker than Jman as well. However, Kisame has indeed made it clear
> that Itachi is stronger than him.



Itachi has reasons to lie , why would Kisame do the same ?


----------



## Ababeel (Apr 25, 2013)

Legend777 said:


> Itachi has reasons to lie , why would Kisame do the same ?



Except there is no proof that's tell us he was lying. Itachi had no problem in trying to kill
Kakashi and Kurnai, and there is no reason to say different way about Jman. 

There has been around 488 chapters since that chapter, when did it say in any of them
that was not the truth?

any way it's not about jman & Itachi. The important thing that's the manga agreed that Itachi > Kisame. 
We know as a fact

Jman > Itachi > Kisame.


----------



## Stermor (Apr 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yata no Kagami nullifies ninjutsu.



not from multiple directions.. something that will happen with kisame's sharks.. 

it is not a good reason to say itachi can defend against kisame's jutsu's.. 

also on the samehada breaking genjutsu, if kisame knows itachi uses genjutsu(which he should) samehada can preventativly flood kisame with chakra at short random intervals to break genjutsu.. which would pretty much prevent genjutsu from taking place..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 25, 2013)

Stermor said:


> not from multiple directions.. something that will happen with kisame's sharks..



We are talking about this : weapons
and it doesn't come from multiple directions.

Kisame other jutsu aren't strong enough to breach susano'o, so it is pretty much irrelevant which direction they come from.




> also on the samehada breaking genjutsu, if kisame knows itachi uses genjutsu(which he should) samehada can preventativly flood kisame with chakra at short random intervals to break genjutsu.. which would pretty much prevent genjutsu from taking place..



Thats meta, and not enough proof to suggest if its plausible or not.

Which again wouldn't work with Tsukiyomi anyways.



joshhookway said:


> Mega Shark Blast absorbs ninjutsu. Susanoo will be absorbed.



Yata no Kagami is not ninjutsu.
It is a legendary item and the definition of it explicitely says that all ninjutsu attacks will be nullfied.


----------



## Meruem (Apr 25, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Mega Shark Blast absorbs ninjutsu. Susanoo will be absorbed.



It will be stopped by the Yata before it reaches the rest of the Susano'o.  The Yata isn't a ninjutsu, it's a spiritual object.


----------



## Stermor (Apr 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We are talking about this : weapons
> and it doesn't come from multiple directions.
> 
> Kisame other jutsu aren't strong enough to breach susano'o, so it is pretty much irrelevant which direction they come from.
> ...



oke yes then i think it would stop direct damage to itachi aswell.. but i was more thinking the 1000 shark jutsu.... 

uhm we do know you can brea genjutsu like that and samehada and kisame have shown the skills/brains to do it.. so i don't see why not.. 

and ye it wouldn't work against tsukiyomi.. 

also while yata can prevent damage itachi, it is unlikely that susanoo would survive it, similar to how it was after kirin..


----------



## Sferr (Apr 25, 2013)

Itachi should win this especially from 30 meters. I don't believe that Samehada could break Kisame out of genjutsu and even if it does, Tsukiyomi is unbreakable for it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> We are talking about this : _time_
> and it doesn't come from multiple directions.
> 
> Kisame other jutsu aren't strong enough to breach susano'o, so it is pretty much irrelevant which direction they come from.
> ...



As far as I remember, i doesn't nullify ninjutsu but just turns into element that is stronger than the opposing technique's element. If it faces Daikodan, it will just have doton's characteristics and supremacy over suiton. But Daikodan is massive, much much larger than the mirror and will get around it through the sheer massiveness of the attack. The mirror just can't cover such an area.

And behind it Daikodan will absorb the Susanoo that is holding the mirror and make the mirror disappear and then kill Itachi. Daikodan > Itachi if it ever comes to this but Itachi should kill Kisame before Daikodan comes into play.

Saying that the mirror would nullify Daikodan the moment it touches it is the same as saying that Daikodan would get nullified but touching Kakashi's doton wall with dog faces. And that's just stupid.


----------



## Sans (Apr 26, 2013)

Yeah, because the Yata no Kagami is comparable to a mud wall lol.


----------



## Stermor (Apr 26, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Yeah, because the Yata no Kagami is comparable to a mud wall lol.



in this case it would be a really small incredible powerful mud wall


----------



## Sferr (Apr 26, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Yeah, because the Yata no Kagami is comparable to a mud wall lol.



Against Daikodan Yata no Kagami will act a very powerful mud wall. I see no reason why a very powerful mud wall would somehow cancel the absorbing capabilities of technique thousand times bigger than it the moment it touches it.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Apr 26, 2013)

Itachi's shunshin was enough to blitz Bee, he'd simply leave Kisame on his ass.

Really and truly, this isn't getting passed Tsukuyomi. Kisame, having info would try his best to avoid it, but he won't be able to keep it up.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Apr 26, 2013)

Make this Kisamehada and he merks Itachi


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 26, 2013)

Sferr said:


> Saying that the mirror would nullify Daikodan the moment it touches it is the same as saying that Daikodan would get nullified but touching Kakashi's doton wall with dog faces. And that's just stupid.




The irony in this statement. Sweet. Just so sweet.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 26, 2013)

I think Great Shark Bullet surrounds susanoo and absorbs susanoo and kills Itachi.


----------



## Remsengan (Apr 26, 2013)

The basically featless Yata mirror gets over-hyped again.   We haven't actually seen it work and yet somehow it's the answer to all ninjutsu attacks.


----------



## Nikushimi (Apr 26, 2013)

How is this thread still open?

Itachi rapes. Even the people who don't think Itachi rapes don't even question the fact that he wins.

This is Hashirama vs. Nagato all over again.



Remsengan said:


> The basically featless Yata mirror gets over-hyped again.   We haven't actually seen it work and yet somehow it's the answer to all ninjutsu attacks.



That's what the author said, yes.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Apr 27, 2013)

Daikodan is an excellent counter to Amaterasu though. It wraps around Kisame, after all. So any amaterasu on Kisame ends up as a big boost for his jutsu and a big loss of chakra for Itachi. This move is a big 50-50 loss-gain ratio for Itachi, it could work, it could backfire spectacularily.

As for Susanoo, to be honest I don't think it would last very long against Samehada's absorbing properties. There's no way in hell there's more than 6 tails worth of chakra in that thing. It's definately not a guaranteed win for Itachi the way people make it out to be. Also the toll on Itachi for simply using Susanoo is considerable. If he were to lose it by some absorbing means, like Daikodan or Samehada, it's likely over for him. Again this move could backfire on Itachi just as easily as it could be to his advantage.

As for Genjutsu, if Kisame plays it smart, he should fuse immediatly, because he becomes a sensor when fused, and can track his opponent blind, as shown when he was fighting inside a cloud of black ink. This is really the deciding factor for the fight. Both know it's an equal match when exchanging large scale ninjutsu, that Kisame eventually wins due to slightly better counters and better stamina. So Kisame must as quickly as possible, fuse with Samehada, and Itachi must as quickly as possible, make sure this does not happen. This is where Itachi has the edge.

Waterdome is a guaranteed win for Kisame. Anyone who says otherwise is full of crap. Bee himself TRAINS underwater, he's got octopus parts to help him out, and even he gets roflstomped and blitzed like a bitch in that situation. Itachi's tiny suitons will do nothing. I don't think it will get to a waterdome scenario anyway, either Kisame wins due to overwhelming ninjutsu counters, or Itachi debilitates Kisame. Regardless, it never gets so far that waterdome matters.

Here's an interesting point though, Tsukiyomi itself. How damaging is it really? Let's say Itachi tortures someone for 48 hours, but in real life, both of them don't move. Or let's say he messes with Kisame's perception of time or whatever (can Itachi really do that?).

That would leave Itachi completely open to Samehada attacking him. Think about it. Kinda dangerous for both parties if you ask me. Also, does that really take out Kisame? Just Tsukiyomi itself has never actually killed anyone from mental stress as far as I can tell, I don't think it's a guaranteed 1 hit kill, Kisame is a tough mofo. He's no part1 Kakashi or genin Sasuke. 
Lots of people just assume it's an immediate match-ending move. But really though, take a step back and think about if that's true or not. How much does Itachi do when his opponent is in Tsukiyomi? Usually he does nothing but stand there.

As always I think this fight is 50-50 for both parties depending on situational details rather than an outright who is stronger than who.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 28, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> I think Great Shark Bullet surrounds susanoo and absorbs susanoo and kills Itachi.



How does the missle kill someone ? Does it explode ? Crush ? 

Asking out of curiosity because I really don't know what it does.




Kind of a big deal said:


> Daikodan is an excellent counter to Amaterasu though. It wraps around Kisame, after all. So any amaterasu on Kisame ends up as a big boost for his jutsu and a big loss of chakra for Itachi. This move is a big 50-50 loss-gain ratio for Itachi, it could work, it could backfire spectacularily.
> 
> As for Susanoo, to be honest I don't think it would last very long against Samehada's absorbing properties. There's no way in hell there's more than 6 tails worth of chakra in that thing. It's definately not a guaranteed win for Itachi the way people make it out to be. Also the toll on Itachi for simply using Susanoo is considerable. If he were to lose it by some absorbing means, like Daikodan or Samehada, it's likely over for him. Again this move could backfire on Itachi just as easily as it could be to his advantage.
> 
> ...



Madara's clones unnamed genjutsu OHKO'D Raikage. Who is also a tough mofo.

Come on, "X tanks Tsukiyomi" arguments have no merit. 
Surrender !


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 28, 2013)

I would initially say Itachi takes advantage with Kisame's poor Genjutsu knowledge.

However Kisame _knows_ Itachi's specialty and his own ability. So Kisame is more prone to starting with his water dome as soon as possible. Itachi may use Susanoo to compensate. 

Though I don't know if Susanoo's speed will be compromised with the water dome.
All I do know is that Itachi will be stuck to using Totsuka in this situation. However on the other hand Kisame can use tons of jutsu to distract Itachi and get behind and absorb the chakra and Itachi's chakra pretty rapidly. 

However in this situation Itachi is pretty much screwed because Totsuka will be absorbed upon touching Kisame like all chakra based jutsu. 

----

Really it comes down to if Itachi can get to Kisame before Kisame can bring out the dome. So the winner will be determined by the circumstance. Though looking at the distance, I'm inclined to say it'll favour Kisame alongside the knowledge.


----------



## Antos (Apr 28, 2013)

wow how do people think Kisame wins even he himself know the answer to this with the way the match is given it basickly makes it a normal battle which Kisame himself saying Itachi is stronger.  Knowledge they both have a lot on the other with odds of itachi have a little more Kabuto controlling Itachi was able to engade bot naruto and bee with Samehada.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 28, 2013)

Doesn't Kisame use _Mizu Kagebunshin_, I don't understand why he could use that to prevent a genjustu fodderstompage?


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How does the missle kill someone ? Does it explode ? Crush ?
> 
> Asking out of curiosity because I really don't know what it does.
> 
> ...



The missile absorbs Itachi's susanoo and then the high water pressure crushes Itachi brain.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 29, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> The missile absorbs Itachi's susanoo and *then the high water pressure crushes Itachi brain.*



Nope.avi


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Kisame intends to kill his target with any of his water jutsus.


----------

