# Neji (War Arc) vs CS2 Sasuke and KN1 Naruto (Part 1)



## jashro44 (Dec 28, 2018)

Area: Konoha Forest
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 20 meters
Restrictions: None


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 28, 2018)

hiashi destroys them

kaiten makes naruto eat dirt &the divinations topple sasky when in range


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 29, 2018)

Neji bearts them. Mid Diff.


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## Esano (Dec 29, 2018)

I'm not sure Neji wins this tbqh


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

1 Tail Naruto blitzes Neji same way he did to Orochimaru (> War Neji)
If he isn't finished from that a dark purple Rasendori should do the trick


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> 1 Tail Naruto blitzes Neji same way he did to Orochimaru (> War Neji)
> If he isn't finished from that a dark purple Rasendori should do the trick



A Chunin cant blitz a Jonin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> A Chunin cant blitz a Jonin.


That "Chunin" blitzed a Sanin so

You actually think kid Obito is Jonin level and 1 Tail Naruto is Chunin level lol must be trolling

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> That "Chunin" blitzed a Sanin so
> 
> You actually think kid Obito is Jonin level and 1 Tail Naruto is Chunin level lol must be trolling



Gaiden Obito >> VOTE1 Naruto >>>>>>> CE 2T Sasuke = Orochimaru

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> That "Chunin" blitzed a Sanin so
> 
> You actually think kid Obito is Jonin level and 1 Tail Naruto is Chunin level lol must be trolling


Part 1 Naruto did not Blitz Orochimaru. Orochimaru was more or less fascinated to see the Kyubi Jinchuuriki. He got neg diffed once Orochimaru tried a little bit. 
Even if you believe he did, the same Naruto who "blitzed" orochimaru failed to blitz Kimimaro who is leagues inferior to Orochimaru, and he also failed to blitz CE Neji who reacted fought back and Naruto resorted to clone Feint.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> Gaiden Obito >> VOTE1 Naruto


Oh my God you still think it



Soldierofficial said:


> CE 2T Sasuke = Orochimaru


What??



Soldierofficial said:


> Gaiden Obito >> VOTE1 Naruto >>>>>>> CE 2T Sasuke = Orochimaru


Can we just talk about how wrong this whole ranking is? Everyone is in the wrong place.. Moment of silence for this dude

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Oh my God you still think it
> 
> 
> What??
> ...


Lmao...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Dec 29, 2018)

Wtf did I just read


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 29, 2018)

Grinningfox said:


> Wtf did I just read


Result of street drugs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Braiyan (Dec 29, 2018)

Neji taps them both to death. At the time of the War Arc, most of the Konoha 11 were solid jonin level fighters. Neji would be even more so considering he started Shippuden with the title. Lol at either Part 1 Naruto or Sasuke being able to blitz him when they aren't even far above his part 1 self. Rasengan and Chidori get shut down with Kaiten, then Neji wails on them with Air Palms and 64 Palms.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Part 1 Naruto did not Blitz Orochimaru


No, but 1 Tail Naruto did.. 1 Tail BoS Naruto = 1 Tail kid Naruto


PradyumnaR said:


> was more or less fascinated to see the Kyubi Jinchuuriki


No that was when he went 3 & 4 Tails.. He was clearly caught off guard


PradyumnaR said:


> He got neg diffed once Orochimaru tried a little bit.


I don't remember Orochimaru neg diffing 1 Tail Naruto.. Scans or it didn't happen


PradyumnaR said:


> Even if you believe he did, the same Naruto who "blitzed" orochimaru failed to blitz Kimimaro


Huh? That wasn't 1 Tail Naruto


PradyumnaR said:


> he also failed to blitz CE Neji


Huh? That wasn't 1 Tail Naruto


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## goombanthime (Dec 29, 2018)

Sure KN1 Naruto can blitz Oro even he kept up with KN4 Naruto a few instant latter

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> he kept up with KN4 Naruto a few instant latter


Doesn't change the fact he got blitzed whatsoever


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## goombanthime (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Doesn't change the fact he got blitzed whatsoever


You don't need to blitz to land a blow, especially against a extremely casual Orochimaru

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> No, but 1 Tail Naruto did.. 1 Tail BoS Naruto = 1 Tail kid Naruto


Catching off guard =/= blitzing. 
Genin Naruto got Kakshi off guard during the bell test. Would you call that a blitz??  Nope. 


MaruUchiha said:


> No that was when he went 3 & 4 Tails.. He was clearly caught off guard


He was amazed, not threatened or even mildly miffed. He literally states it would be interesting to see how he develops. 


MaruUchiha said:


> I don't remember Orochimaru neg diffing 1 Tail Naruto.. Scans or it didn't happen


He put the five finger seal once he got a bit annoyedband tossed Naruto away. What's worse sakura had to save him. 


MaruUchiha said:


> Huh? That wasn't 1 Tail Naruto


Got confused. My bad. That was Kyubi Chakra Naruto.


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Huh? That wasn't 1 Tail Naruto



That was KCM Naruto, which is much stronger than KN1 Naruto.

WA Neji >> CE Neji ~ KCM Naruto >>>>>>>>> KN1 Naruto

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> You don't need to blitz to land a blow, especially against a extremely casual Orochimaru


That's one way to look at it.. I guess..


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Catching off guard =/= blitzing.


Whatever you guys say


PradyumnaR said:


> He put the five finger seal once he got a bit annoyedband tossed Naruto away. What's worse sakura had to save him.


Huh? That was kid Kyuubi Mode Naruto.. Not 1 Tail BoS Naruto..


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> WA Neji >> CE Neji ~ KCM Naruto >>>>>>>>> KN1 Naruto


There's no way you're not fucking trolling

And no KCM Naruto wasn't involved in any of these fights we're discussing wtf are you talking about


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> There's no way you're not fucking trolling
> 
> And no KCM Naruto wasn't involved in any of these fights we're discussing wtf are you talking about



Naruto used KCM to defeat Neji, and still defeated him with extreme difficulty, KN1-3 would not do anything to Neji, the difference is huge, KCM Naruto has teleportation and Neji could exchange blows with him.

Read the manga, kid.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> Naruto used KCM to defeat Neji


When did this happen??


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> When did this happen??


Chapter 103

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> Chapter 103


That's not Kyuubi Chakra Mode


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> That's not Kyuubi Chakra Mode



Yes, is Kyubi Chakra Mode, or do you think that is the Cursed Seal? Tell me you're trolling ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> Yes, is Kyubi Chakra Mode, or do you think that is the Cursed Seal? Tell me you're trolling ...


Are you trying to say "KCM" kid Naruto is almost as strong as KCM War Naruto?


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Are you trying to say "KCM" kid Naruto is almost as strong as KCM War Naruto?



No, why would they be the same? War Naruto is a little stronger since he knows the Rasengan.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> No, why would they be the same? War Naruto is a little stronger since he knows the Rasengan.


So you think "KCM" from Chunin Exams is a strong as KCM from the War Arc?


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> So you think "KCM" from Chunin Exams is a strong as KCM from the War Arc?



No, I already told you that WA Naruto is stronger, as we all know.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Whatever you guys say
> 
> Huh? That was kid Kyuubi Mode Naruto.. Not 1 Tail BoS Naruto..


That was the only p1 Naruto who fought Orochimaru directly. So I don't know what other instance of orochimaru getting blitzed by kid Naruto you are referring to.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 29, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> That was the only p1 Naruto who fought Orochimaru directly. So I don't know what other instance of orochimaru getting blitzed by kid Naruto you are referring to.


I'm talking about when 1 Tail BoS Naruto blitzed Orochimaru. 1 Tail BoS Naruto = 1 Tail kid Naruto


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 29, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> 1 Tail BoS Naruto = 1 Tail kid Naruto





There's no way you're not fucking trolling

Read the manga, kid


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 29, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> He put the five finger seal once he got a bit annoyedband tossed Naruto away. What's worse sakura had to save him.



A Sakura feat


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 30, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> I'm talking about when 1 Tail BoS Naruto blitzed Orochimaru. 1 Tail BoS Naruto = 1 Tail kid Naruto


No they are not. BoS One Tail Naruto =/= Part 1 one tail Naruto.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> No they are not. BoS One Tail Naruto =/= Part 1 one tail Naruto.


Yes, the only difference is BoS Naruto has Giant Rasengan, but Kurama's power boost is the same


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## Santoryu (Dec 30, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> CE 2T Sasuke = Orochimaru





i hope you're joking


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 30, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Yes, the only difference is BoS Naruto has Giant Rasengan, but Kurama's power boost is the same


And also the 3 year worth of training with a Sannin and a better physical body. 
They are not the same.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> i hope you're joking


He rated you Lewd for thinking it's a joke!


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## Santoryu (Dec 30, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> He rated you Lewd for thinking it's a joke!



got him back with a spicy disagree


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> And also the 3 year worth of training with a Sannin and a better physical body.
> They are not the same.


That might be how it works for base Kyuubi Mode, but once he starts growing Tails he's turning into Kurama. Naruto's own power is irrelevant at that point.. Unless you think 4 Tails kid Naruto that almost killed Jiraiya is weaker than 4 Tails Naruto that fought Orochimaru?


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## hbcaptain (Dec 30, 2018)

Neji wins handly, his overall strengh is most likely comparable to War Lee who in turn can be a great part of a combination attack envolving multiple Kage level fighters.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 30, 2018)

Soldierofficial lives on a planet where kid Obito >>> Orochimaru and 1 Tail Naruto.. Very interesting


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 30, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> That might be how it works for base Kyuubi Mode, but once he starts growing Tails he's turning into Kurama. Naruto's own power is irrelevant at that point.. Unless you think 4 Tails kid Naruto that almost killed Jiraiya is weaker than 4 Tails Naruto that fought Orochimaru?


Definitely. A toddler who goes tailed mode isn't as strong as a grown ass man who goes tailed mode.
Naruto's power is very relevant as long as he is in control. That's the whole point of Mastering the Chakra mode.
At 4 Tails Naruto is no longer in control so your argument doesn't translate to one tail.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 30, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> got him back with a spicy disagree


He rates most of my comments lewd.  Whatever gives him the funny feeling.


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## Santoryu (Dec 30, 2018)




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## Esano (Dec 31, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Doesn't change the fact he got blitzed whatsoever


Yes. Yes it does.


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## Esano (Dec 31, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Soldierofficial lives on a planet where kid Obito >>> Orochimaru and 1 Tail Naruto.. Very interesting


I honestly thought he was fucking around just trying to "counter" your point by doing what you did ( 1 Tail Kid = 1 Tail BOS). Though it doesnt work cuz KCM/Kn0.

But then I remembered he said Orochimaru was weaker than 1 Tailed Naruto and a bunch of other stuff.

Are we talking Kid Obito who fought the Mist or the one who fought the Stone Ninja? I could totally buy the former being above 1 T Naruto.


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 31, 2018)

Esano said:


> I honestly thought he was fucking around just trying to "counter" your point by doing what you did ( 1 Tail Kid = 1 Tail BOS). Though it doesnt work cuz KCM/Kn0.
> 
> But then I remembered he said Orochimaru was weaker than 1 Tailed Naruto and a bunch of other stuff.
> 
> Are we talking Kid Obito who fought the Mist or the one who fought the Stone Ninja? I could totally buy the former being above 1 T Naruto.


No the dude actually thinks Obito who just awakened his 2 tomoe Sharingan is Jonin level and stronger than 3 tomoe Sharingan CS2 Sasuke, 1 Tail Naruto, and Orochimaru.. And he thinks Orochimaru = 2 tomoe Sharingan Sasuke


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## Esano (Dec 31, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> No the dude actually thinks Obito who just awakened his 2 tomoe Sharingan is Jonin level and stronger than 3 tomoe Sharingan CS2 Sasuke, 1 Tail Naruto, and Orochimaru.. And he thinks Orochimaru = 2 tomoe Sharingan Sasuke


Is there any...proof? I don't remember the flashback stuff that well. I guess maybe he did save Kakashi...What rank where those stone Ninja?

I can understand people who think Hebi Sasuke is Orochimaru level ( he isn't ) but KID Sasuke??? How?? Kid Sasuke is Sanin/ Low Hokage level now???


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 31, 2018)

Esano said:


> Is there any...proof? I don't remember the flashback stuff that well. I guess maybe he did save Kakashi...What rank where those stone Ninja?
> 
> I can understand people who think Hebi Sasuke is Orochimaru level ( he isn't ) but KID Sasuke??? How?? Kid Sasuke is Sanin/ Low Hokage level now???


Ask him I'm just as confused as you lol


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 31, 2018)

Hey Soldierofficial you got time to neg rate me why don't you explain to my man Esano how in the blue fuck kid Obito is stronger than a Sanin or even 3 tomoe Sharingan CS2 Sasuke for that matter


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## Esano (Dec 31, 2018)

MaruUchiha said:


> Hey Soldierofficial you got time to neg rate me why don't you explain to my man Esano how in the blue fuck kid Obito is stronger than a Sanin or even 3 tomoe Sharingan CS2 Sasuke for that matter


Yes please.


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## Soldierofficial (Dec 31, 2018)

2T Obito defeated a Full Jonin, then was able to fight on par with Kakashi, a Full Jonin, against another Full Jonin that according to DB2 was one of the strongest Jonin of his ale


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 31, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> 2T Obito defeated a Full Jonin, then was able to fight on par with Kakashi, a Full Jonin, against another Full Jonin that according to DB2 was one of the strongest Jonin of his ale


You know as much as I don't like you I'll admit that's a decent explanation, but still doesn't explain how he's stronger than Orochimaru, 1 Tail Naruto, or kid CS2 Sasuke who he doesn't even have as much tomoe in his Sharingan as or any physical amp that matches CS2


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## Esano (Dec 31, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> 2T Obito defeated a Full Jonin, then was able to fight on par with Kakashi, a Full Jonin, against another Full Jonin that according to DB2 was one of the strongest Jonin of his ale


That actually makes sense.

Can you explain the rest now?


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 1, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> You know as much as I don't like you I'll admit that's a decent explanation, but still doesn't explain how he's stronger than Orochimaru, 1 Tail Naruto, or kid CS2 Sasuke who he doesn't even have as much tomoe in his Sharingan as or any physical amp that matches CS2





Esano said:


> That actually makes sense.
> 
> Can you explain the rest now?



There is not much to explain, Gaiden Obito is much stronger than VOTE Naruto & Sasuke since he was Jonin level, the others were not.

The Sound 4 had to use the CS2 to defeat 2 Exhausted Tokubetsu Jonin, CS2 Sasuke and KN1 Naruto are much stronger than The Sound 4, but that does not mean they are at the level of a Full Jonin, which is much stronger than a Tokubetsu Jonin, who even being exhausted can fight the Sound 4.


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## Esano (Jan 1, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> There is not much to explain, Gaiden Obito is much stronger than VOTE Naruto & Sasuke since he was Jonin level, the others were not.
> 
> The Sound 4 had to use the CS2 to defeat 2 Exhausted Tokubetsu Jonin, CS2 Sasuke and KN1 Naruto are much stronger than The Sound 4, but that does not mean they are at the level of a Full Jonin, which is much stronger than a Tokubetsu Jonin, who even being exhausted can fight the Sound 4.


No I get that. I agree that CS2 and Kn1 are prolly around Low-Jounin level at best.

I am talking about Orochi = 2T Sasuke and KN1>Orochimaru


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 1, 2019)

And Kid Obito > Orochimaru


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 1, 2019)

Esano said:


> I am talking about Orochi = 2T Sasuke and KN1>Orochimaru



I'm not the one who believes this nonsense, it's MaruUchiha who believes that KN1 Naruto is capable of blitzing a Sannin just because he could hit a Orochimaru who was in his base form, sick and holding back, in addition to BoS Naruto is much stronger than VOTE Naruto.


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## Esano (Jan 1, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> I'm not the one who believes this nonsense, it's MaruUchiha who believes that KN1 Naruto is capable of blitzing a Sannin just because he could hit a Orochimaru who was in his base form, sick and holding back, in addition to BoS Naruto is much stronger than VOTE Naruto.


So that part was you trying to use his argument against him? Since he said Kid Naruto = Adult Naruto in KN1, and KN1 Blitzed Orochimaru and also Sasuke, they are equal? I see..


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## Esano (Jan 1, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> And Kid Obito > Orochimaru


According to his explanation, he is using your logic.

You said that Kid 1 Tails could Blitz since Teen Naruto could blitz.

Since Sasuke could react to Kn1, but Orochimaru didn't and since Kid Obito > KN1. Then, Kid Obito > Oro

Actually, didn't you agree that Jounin would beat VOTE Naruto and Sasuke? So how could you believe Kn1 could blitz Oro or Neji?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 1, 2019)

Esano said:


> So that part was you trying to use his argument against him? Since he said Kid Naruto = Adult Naruto in KN1, and KN1 Blitzed Orochimaru and also Sasuke, they are equal? I see..


Yes, I was just making fun of Maru, for some reason he thinks that Kid Naruto is able to blitz Orochimaru but at the same time it seems stupid that Kid Sasuke can do it too


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 1, 2019)

Esano said:


> Actually, didn't you agree that Jounin would beat VOTE Naruto and Sasuke?


No I said they're Jonin level


Esano said:


> So how could you believe Kn1 could blitz Oro or Neji?


Because Kn1 DID blitz Orochimaru and Orochimaru > Neji?


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 1, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> No I said they're Jonin level



Proof?



> Because Kn1 DID blitz Orochimaru and Orochimaru > Neji?


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## Esano (Jan 1, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> No I said they're Jonin level


I was going off your response to Soldier. Still, I dont see how you think Kn1 as a kid can blitz Orochimaru when Sasuke was actually able to fight him.



> Because Kn1 DID blitz Orochimaru and Orochimaru > Neji?


Your going to have to show me a scan. And even then it makes 0 sense. That same Orochimaru was fighting 4 Tails Naruto.


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 1, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Proof?


The fact they're stronger than any Jonin besides Kakashi, Gai, or Asuma?


You do know that was all facts right?


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 1, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> The fact they're stronger than any Jonin besides Kakashi, Gai, or Asuma?
> 
> 
> You do know that was all facts right?



Elite Jonin >> Average Jonin >> Tokubetsu Jonin >> Naruto/Sasuke according to manga, kid.


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 1, 2019)

Esano said:


> I dont see how you think Kn1 as a kid can blitz Orochimaru when Sasuke was actually able to fight him.


Decent point but Orochimaru doesn't have 3 tomoe Sharingan to react to that level of speed like Sasuke.. Naruto didn't even have killing intent against Sasuke so


Esano said:


> Your going to have to show me a scan.





Esano said:


> And even then it makes 0 sense





Esano said:


> That same Orochimaru was fighting 4 Tails Naruto.


Uhh no he wasn't.. He got tossed around then had to run for his life from a Bijuu Bomb.. Where does everyone get this idea Orochimaru was actually a match for 4 Tails Naruto?


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 1, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Elite Jonin >> Average Jonin >> Tokubetsu Jonin >> Naruto/Sasuke according to manga, kid.


Not even remotely true.. So you actually see a fodder Jonin defeating 1 Tail Naruto and CS2 Sasuke? Oh yea I guess so since you think kid Obito is stronger


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 1, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Not even remotely true.. So you actually see a fodder Jonin defeating 1 Tail Naruto and CS2 Sasuke? Oh yea I guess so since you think kid Obito is stronger



Genma & Raido (Tokubetsu Jonin) > CS2 Sound 4 as per canon


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## MarF (Jan 1, 2019)

BoS Naruto was holding himself against a sharingan wielding Kakashi for an extended period of time and he alongside with Sai was also stated to be beyond his peers which includes Neji a Jounin. 

In other words BoS Base Naruto is at least a solid Jounin tier fighter. Him blitzing a sick Oro when using KN1 a form that massively boosts both his normal speed and Ninjutsu aka Shunshin isn't exactly farfetched. 

Part 1 Kn1 Naruto is weaker than his BoS base version.

Neji wins this matchup. Both Naruto and Sasuke get oneshotted by a Juuken strike to the chest.


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Not even remotely true.. So you actually see a fodder Jonin defeating 1 Tail Naruto and CS2 Sasuke? Oh yea I guess so since you think kid Obito is stronger


Kid 1 Tailed Naruto is nigh Featless.

We know that

Jounin >> CS2 Sound 4

and

1 Tail >> CS2 Sound 4

But we don't really know anything else.

Most people on here have them at Low Jounin level.


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

MarF said:


> BoS Naruto was holding himself against a sharingan wielding Kakashi for an extended period of time and he alongside with Sai was also stated to be beyond his peers which includes Neji a Jounin.
> 
> In other words BoS Base Naruto is at least a solid Jounin tier fighter. Him blitzing a sick Oro when using KN1 a form that massively boosts both his normal speed and Ninjutsu aka Shunshin isn't exactly farfetched.
> 
> Part 1 Kn1 Naruto is weaker than his BoS base version.


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Decent point but Orochimaru doesn't have 3 tomoe Sharingan to react to that level of speed like Sasuke.. Naruto didn't even have killing intent against Sasuke so



Sasuke fought KID One tails. Bjuu are stated to be stronger with their Jin, and the Jin obviously has an effect. I don't think Kid Naruto's body would even be able to take the higher forms.

Killing intent shouldn't affect speed.

As odd as is, perception speed goes up with power in Naruto. I don't see how Child Sasuke would be able to react on the level of a SANIN.

I guess you could argue that Orochimaru wasn't at full power, and thus it is less incredulous, yet would then have to shown how he is above Neji, though that's obvious, it is also obvious he would be above Sasuke.




> Uhh no he wasn't.. He got tossed around then had to run for his life from a Bijuu Bomb.. Where does everyone get this idea Orochimaru was actually a match for 4 Tails Naruto?





Orochimaru really didn't give a shit vs 1 Tails though. He laughs off the attack, for all we know he was testing Naruto's power.

Even if Orochimaru didn't react to the one tails, he was still Solidly above Child Sauske who fought on par with Child 1 Tails. Regardless of the Sharingan.

Orochimaru also calls the 3 Tails, Teen Naruto (>>>1 Tails Kid) "Interesting".

Fucking Kabuto's like " Alright imma fuck him up " and is Smiling after.


Orochimaru Dodges a 3 tails attack:




Keeps pace with 4 Tails attack:




Lmao:





"Runs":




Naruto lands like one good hit, when he cuts him in half, but Orochimaru doesn't give a shit.

He is also SEVERELY weakened:




But I am not saying he is = In power I am saying he reacted.


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## MarF (Jan 2, 2019)

Did my post confuse you? Or is there a different reason you replied to me with that ugly thing?


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> Kid 1 Tailed Naruto is nigh Featless.


No he's not since he has the same feats as Boss 1 Tail Naruto.. The only thing that makes BoS 1 Tail Naruto stronger is he has Giant Rasengan


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## MarF (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> No he's not since he has the same feats as Boss 1 Tail Naruto.. The only thing that makes BoS 1 Tail Naruto stronger is he has Giant Rasengan



P1 base Naruto is chuunin tier. P1 KN1 Naruto is a low jounin fighter at best by both feats and portrayal.
BoS base Naruto is stronger than BoS Neji a full fledged Jounin. Saying both of them are equal in Kn1 would mean that BoS Naruto gets weaker when he uses Kn1.


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

MarF said:


> P1 base Naruto is chuunin tier. P1 KN1 Naruto is a low jounin fighter at best by both feats and portrayal.
> BoS base Naruto is stronger than BoS Neji a full fledged Jounin. Saying both of them are equal in Kn1 would mean that BoS Naruto gets weaker when he uses Kn1.


Base Naruto's power doesn't matter once he has tails. He's basically Kurama at that point. KN1 is just as strong for kid Naruto as it is for boS Naruto


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Base Naruto's power doesn't matter once he has tails. He's basically Kurama at that point. KN1 is just as strong for kid Naruto as it is for boS Naruto



BoS Base Naruto > BoS KN1 Naruto comfirmed

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## MaruUchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> BoS Base Naruto > BoS KN1 Naruto comfirmed


Huh? Where did I imply that?


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Huh? Where did I imply that?



BoS Base Naruto > BoS KN1 Naruto = SRA KN1 Naruto?

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## MarF (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Base Naruto's power doesn't matter once he has tails. He's basically Kurama at that point. KN1 is just as strong for kid Naruto as it is for boS Naruto



If Kn1 Naruto was basically Kurama he wouldn't be in full control of himself or be capable of using Ninjutsu. He would be a mindless beast fighting on pure instinct like Kn4.

The boost Naruto gets from Kn1 is equal for both version but the endresult is vastly different. Kn1 doesn't replace Naruto's stats it boosts them

quick example:
P1 naruto 1(Base) + 10(Kn1) = 11
BoS naruto 15(Base) + 10(Kn1) = 25

and yes i pulled those numbers from my ass, its just an example.


MaruUchiha said:


> Huh? Where did I imply that?



P1 Kn1 Naruto is a High chuunin to low jounin level fighter.
BoS Base Naruto is a solid jounin tier fighter. If they are equal in Kn1 it would mean that BoS Naruto gets weaker, from at least Mid Jounin to Low Jounin.


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

MarF said:


> Did my post confuse you? Or is there a different reason you replied to me with that ugly thing?





MarF said:


> P1 base Naruto is chuunin tier. P1 KN1 Naruto is a low jounin fighter at best by both feats and portrayal.
> BoS base Naruto is stronger than BoS Neji a full fledged Jounin. Saying both of them are equal in Kn1 would mean that BoS Naruto gets weaker when he uses Kn1.



Where are you getting all this shit? It seems beyond baseless, just pure fabrication.

There's no reason to rate BoS Naruto's skills that high. You'd have to be putting Sakura above Neji as well if you're basing it all on their offscreen fights with Kakashi in the second bell test. Either that or you're vastly underestimating the range of skill that is covered by "chunin level" 

What feats and portrayal are leading you to believe that Naruto is not only jonin level, but is better than Neji, without using any kyuubi forms or chakra?


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Where are you getting all this shit? It seems beyond baseless, just pure fabrication.
> 
> There's no reason to rate BoS Naruto's skills that high. You'd have to be putting Sakura above Neji as well if you're basing it all on their offscreen fights with Kakashi in the second bell test. Either that or you're vastly underestimating the range of skill that is covered by "chunin level"
> 
> What feats and portrayal are leading you to believe that Naruto is not only jonin level, but is better than Neji, without using any kyuubi forms or chakra?



No, Danzo said that Naruto and Sai were the strongest Konoha's ninjas of their generation, so both were stronger than BoS Neji.

BoS Naruto > BoS Neji

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## MaruUchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> BoS Base Naruto > BoS KN1 Naruto = SRA KN1 Naruto?


No.. Base BoS Naruto is weaker than both


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> No, Danzo said that Naruto and Sai were the strongest Konoha's ninjas of their generation, so both were stronger than BoS Neji.
> 
> BoS Naruto > BoS Neji



And where was this?


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## MarF (Jan 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Where are you getting all this shit? It seems beyond baseless, just pure fabrication.
> 
> There's no reason to rate BoS Naruto's skills that high. You'd have to be putting Sakura above Neji as well if you're basing it all on their offscreen fights with Kakashi in the second bell test. Either that or you're vastly underestimating the range of skill that is covered by "chunin level"
> 
> What feats and portrayal are leading you to believe that Naruto is not only jonin level, but is better than Neji, without using any kyuubi forms or chakra?



Im basing it on Naruto's portrayal and feats throghout the entirety of early P2.

Right before the bell test gets offpaneled Kakashi states that it is now his turn to go on the offensive at this point its daytime. In the next panel it's nightime and the moon is high in the air yet Naruto and Sakura are both fine and Kakshi is also in disbelief that he had to use his Sharingan that much.


Danzo states that both Naruto and Sai are stronger than their peers which includes Neji a Jounin.


In chapter 282 Tsunade, Shizune and Sakura have an extended discussion about the future of Team 7 on the hokage tower only Tsunade notices that Naruto was standing above them listening in the whole time. Neither Shizune a Jounin or Sakura a Chunin noticed his presence.



When Team 7 was leaving Konoha to save Gaara, Jiraiya never showed any worry about Naruto not being strong or skilled enough to face them the only thing he was worried about was Naruto losing his temper and acting rashly. He even tells him to not use "that jutsu" which refers to Kn4. Meaning Jiraiya was confident that even without it Naruto would be fine against the Akatsuki as long as he stays calm.


There is also the fact that not much later in the immortals arc Naruto surpasses Kakashi and when fighting Kakuzu he outfeints him twice and if his FRS held out even 1 second longer he would have beaten him in a single exchange.

BoS Naruto being Jounin tier also makes sense when you look at his progression throughout the story.
Preskip - Genin to Chuunin
Postskip - Jounin
Immortals arc - Low Kage
Pain arc - Mid to high kage with SM

If BoS Naruto isn't Jounin tier it would mean he jumps straight from Chunin to Low Kage over the span of two arcs just from his FRS training.

All these things make me believe BoS Base Naruto is in the low to mid Jounin tier.


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> And where was this?

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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> No.. Base BoS Naruto is weaker than both





SRA KN1 Naruto > BoS Neji & BoS Lee comfirmed

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## MaruUchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Esano said:


> Sasuke fought KID One tails. Bjuu are stated to be stronger with their Jin, and the Jin obviously has an effect. I don't think Kid Naruto's body would even be able to take the higher forms


You do know kid Naruto went 4 Tails and almost killed Jiraiya right?


Esano said:


> Killing intent shouldn't affect speed.


Except it does.. Why would Naruto blitz Sasuke the same way if he didn't wanna kill him?


Esano said:


> As odd as is, perception speed goes up with power in Naruto. I don't see how Child Sasuke would be able to react on the level of a SANIN.


Uhh you do know that's one of the reasons Orochimaru wanted Sharingan right? You don't remember Sasuke using Sharingan to react to 1 Tail Naruto?


Esano said:


> Orochimaru really didn't give a shit vs 1 Tails though. He laughs off the attack, for all we know he was testing Naruto's power.


Why do you keep saying that? Orochimaru got bitch slapped across the forest and came back with his face blown off, when did he laugh off the attack?


Esano said:


> Even if Orochimaru didn't react to the one tails, he was still Solidly above Child Sauske who fought on par with Child 1 Tails. Regardless of the Sharingan.


Uhh I never disagreed with that..


Esano said:


> Orochimaru also calls the 3 Tails, Teen Naruto (>>>1 Tails Kid) "Interesting".


.. Okay?


Esano said:


> Fucking Kabuto's like " Alright imma fuck him up " and is Smiling after.


And then proceeds to get one shotted by a roar


Esano said:


> Orochimaru Dodges a 3 tails attack:


Look dude I never denied Orochimaru can react to 1-4 Tails Naruto.. Orochimaru was off guard when he got blitzed, simple..


Esano said:


> Keeps pace with 4 Tails attack:





MaruUchiha said:


> Look dude I never denied Orochimaru can react to 1-4 Tails Naruto.. Orochimaru was off guard when he got blitzed, simple..





Esano said:


> Lmao:


Love how you skim over the fact that Naruto was psuedo clone feinting him


Esano said:


> "Runs":


Where did he go once that Bijuu Bomb settled? Yea, ran for his life..


Esano said:


> "lHe is also SEVERELY weakened:


Why do you think that is? From fighting 4 Tails Naruto.. He's now at his limit


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

Naruto used a shit ton of kyuubi chakra to beat Neji in the chunin exams, so why do you think Danzo is only referring to base Naruto here?


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> SRA KN1 Naruto > BoS Neji & BoS Lee comfirmed


Base Lee with weights on? Maybe


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Naruto used a shit ton of kyuubi chakra to beat Neji in the chunin exams, so why do you think Danzo is only referring to base Naruto here?



Neji was not training for 2.5 years with a Sannin, that Naruto needed Kurama to defeat CE Neji does not mean that he also has to use KN0 to defeat BoS Neji.

Danzo only knows the strength of BoS Base Naruto, he is not taking into account that he can use KN4.

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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Base Lee with weights on? Maybe



Base Lee with weights on = Neji?

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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

MarF said:


> Im basing it on Naruto's portrayal and feats throghout the entirety of early P2.
> 
> Right before the bell test gets offpaneled Kakashi states that it is now his turn to go on the offensive at this point its daytime. In the next panel it's nightime and the moon is high in the air yet Naruto and Sakura are both fine and Kakshi is also in disbelief that he had to use his Sharingan that much.
> 
> ...



1) To put things in perspective, Kakashi was using his Sharingan on the kids in their first bell test, when they weren't even full fledged genin yet. You also don't seem to realize that arguing this for Naruto means you're also placing Sakura at jonin level by extension. In either case, it's a bit of a stretch to say sparring with a jonin automatically means you yourself must be jonin level.

2) Kakashi's comment about using the Sharingan is purely relative since we don't know how much he used it. In essence, all he is stating is they are stronger than he expected, which doesn't actually tell us how strong. This is flimsy evidence to argue they are jonin level and requires the person you're debating against to accept your own interpretation rather than you actually supporting it.

3) Why would Danzo only be considering base Naruto in that statement when Naruto only won his chunin exams match by using kyuubi chakra? His chunin exams match was 100% plot. Like, why didn't the ref stop the fight after Naruto got hit with 64 Palms? No one knew kyuubi chakra could save him, so Naruto was basically standing there dying and the ref didn't even stop the match after Neji said "If you don't end this here, I'm going to kill him." If you see one combatant has no way to fight back and was already whooped by his opponent when starting at full strength, then someone warns you that the next hit will kill them, why wouldn't you stop the fight? 

4) Naruto eavesdropping is a non-feat. Might as well say he was jonin level at beginning of part 1 because he was able to steal an S-rank scroll full of kinjutsu and read it, then defeat a village chunin that was corrupt.

5) Why would Jiraiya be worried when Naruto was with Kakashi and had already been bailed out by kyuubi chakra against a good handful of jonin level opponents already? This is a non-feat and isn't suggestive of anything.

6) Kakashi meant Naruto surpassed his skill. Combining nature transformation with Rasengan was something Kakashi didn't have the capability to do, even as an adult. This doesn't mean Naruto's taijutsu, genjutsu, or overall combat potential surpassed Kakashi. Especially not when everyone knows Kakashi also had Kamui at that point in time.




The only solid indicator you have here is Danzo's statement, but it's obvious that Naruto can overwhelm any of the other K11, including Neji, after pulling out kyuubi chakra. Even then, he only tied with Neji the first time he did that and then needed PIS to get a finishing blow (after, as I already mentioned, plot prolonged their fight past the point when Neji beat Naruto fair and square)

What you tried to say was that base Naruto is above Neji. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that. Danzo's statement does not imply that.


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Base Lee with weights on = Neji?


No, but he's closer to Neji than with the weights off or gates


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> You do know kid Naruto went 4 Tails and almost killed Jiraiya right?



Ah, now killing intent doesn't matter XD



> Except it does.. Why would Naruto blitz Sasuke the same way if he didn't wanna kill him?



Because he wanted to hit him



> Uhh you do know that's one of the reasons Orochimaru wanted Sharingan right? You don't remember Sasuke using Sharingan to react to 1 Tail Naruto?


Yeah Orochimaru wanted the Sharingan to react to Kn1 lol.



> Why do you keep saying that? Orochimaru got bitch slapped across the forest and came back with his face blown off, when did he laugh off the attack?



I'm not getting another scan, read the chapter.




> Uhh I never disagreed with that..



Implicitly you did.




> .. Okay?


3 is bigger than 1.





> And then proceeds to get one shotted by a roar



Yes, and yet he wasn't even scared..



> Look dude I never denied Orochimaru can react to 1-4 Tails Naruto.. Orochimaru was off guard when he got blitzed, simple..



That isn't a BLITZ then. And you can just drop it then,




> Love how you skim over the fact that Naruto was psuedo clone feinting him



Should have just hit him straight on, he shouldn't need to do that. Also, not the point, I just thought that can was funny.



> Where did he go once that Bijuu Bomb settled? Yea, ran for his life..



Still... your kinda downplaying him



> Why do you think that is? From fighting 4 Tails Naruto.. He's now at his limit


Because he is being rejected by the body and missing all his power. read the scan.


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> No, but he's closer to Neji than with the weights off or gates



No.

BoS Base Naruto > BoS Neji >= BoS 6th Gate Lee >> SRA KN1 Naruto

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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Neji was not training for 2.5 years with a Sannin, that Naruto needed Kurama to defeat CE Neji does not mean that he also has to use KN0 to defeat BoS Neji.
> 
> Danzo only knows the strength of BoS Base Naruto, he is not taking into account that he can use KN4.



It's a huge contradiction to say Danzo doesn't know Naruto's full strength, but knows everyone else's and knows for sure they are below Naruto.

Also, if you're using the title "sannin" to immediately apply hype to Naruto's training, Sakura too was trained by a sannin for 2.5 years. Sakura also lasted just as long as Naruto in the second bell test training.

There's no way to say Naruto is the strongest in his generation based simply of those two things, but then try and leave Sakura out.


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## Esano (Jan 2, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> No he's not since he has the same feats as Boss 1 Tail Naruto.. The only thing that makes BoS 1 Tail Naruto stronger is he has Giant Rasengan


That is your headcanon my friend


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> It's a huge contradiction to say Danzo doesn't know Naruto's full strength, but knows everyone else's and knows for sure they are below Naruto.
> 
> Also, if you're using the title "sannin" to immediately apply hype to Naruto's training, Sakura too was trained by a sannin for 2.5 years. Sakura also lasted just as long as Naruto in the second bell test training.
> 
> There's no way to say Naruto is the strongest in his generation based simply of those two things, but then try and leave Sakura out.



Danzo knows the strength of Neji, he knows that Neji is a Jonin, and it's not as if Neji had left the village for years, Danzo's comment makes sense.

Yes, Sakura also trained for 2.5 years with a Sannin, and that's why she became much stronger, in fact her strength was very close to BoS Naruto, I have never said that Naruto is much stronger than her.

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## hbcaptain (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Danzo knows the strength of Neji, he knows that Neji is a Jonin, and it's not as if Neji had left the village for years, Danzo's comment makes sense.
> 
> Yes, Sakura also trained for 2.5 years with a Sannin, and that's why she became much stronger, in fact her strength was very close to BoS Naruto, I have never said that Naruto is much stronger than her.


Team Gai and Team 7/Team 10 are not from the same generation.


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Team Gai and Team 7/Team 10 are not from the same generation.



Yes, they are, a difference of one year isnt another generation, Neji and Naruto are ninjas of the same generation.

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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Danzo knows the strength of Neji, he knows that Neji is a Jonin, and it's not as if Neji had left the village for years, Danzo's comment makes sense.
> 
> Yes, Sakura also trained for 2.5 years with a Sannin, and that's why she became much stronger, in fact her strength was very close to BoS Naruto, I have never said that Naruto is much stronger than her.



He knows Neji is a jonin, but he doesn't know his strength. Other than basic taijutsu, all of Neji's juken skills would be trained in secret. It's one thing for Neji himself to spy on secret training with Byakugan, but it's kind of ridiculous for Hiashi and Neji, both trying to train in secret and both with their Byakugan on, to be spied on by a plain ANBU or ROOT ninja. 

You're begging me to accept your assumptions. 

It's not reasonable for Danzo to know everything about every other K11 ninja. Especially given the kind of reports we've seen the ROOT ninja handing in to their superiors. 

It's not reasonable for Naruto in base to be stronger than Neji given how we've seen Naruto fighting in shippuden.

It's barely reasonable for Sai.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Yes, they are, a difference of one year isnt another generation, Neji and Naruto are ninjas of the same generation.


Not the literal meaning, Team Gai were introduced as a team of a previous generation in P1.


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## MarF (Jan 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> 1) To put things in perspective, Kakashi was using his Sharingan on the kids in their first bell test, when they weren't even full fledged genin yet. You also don't seem to realize that arguing this for Naruto means you're also placing Sakura at jonin level by extension. In either case, it's a bit of a stretch to say sparring with a jonin automatically means you yourself must be jonin level.



Kakashi never used his Sharingan in the first bell test. It wasn't revealed until the Wave arc.

Sakura didn't really do anything in that fight apart from punching the ground once. thats it.
Naruto had a short shuriken fight with Kakashi's clone and also used a clonefeint against him which Kakashi remarks upon. It's also Naruto who figures out Kakashi's "Weakness" and gets them the bells.
Their onpanel contributions aren't exactly equal.



Ultrafragor said:


> 2) Kakashi's comment about using the Sharingan is purely relative since we don't know how much he used it. In essence, all he is stating is they are stronger than he expected, which doesn't actually tell us how strong. This is flimsy evidence to argue they are jonin level and requires the person you're debating against to accept your own interpretation rather than you actually supporting it.


The fact that Kakashi needs his Sharingan  at all is a feat. Remember that rusty P1 Kakashi even without his sharingan casually wrecked two chunin that are listed in the bingo book.



Ultrafragor said:


> 3) Why would Danzo only be considering base Naruto in that statement when Naruto only won his chunin exams match by using kyuubi chakra? His chunin exams match was 100% plot. Like, why didn't the ref stop the fight after Naruto got hit with 64 Palms? No one knew kyuubi chakra could save him, so Naruto was basically standing there dying and the ref didn't even stop the match after Neji said "If you don't end this here, I'm going to kill him." If you see one combatant has no way to fight back and was already whooped by his opponent when starting at full strength, then someone warns you that the next hit will kill them, why wouldn't you stop the fight?


I agree about the CE fight. But why would Danzo use intel thats outdated by 2,5 years?
Fact is we don't know what he is basing his statement on we can only speculate.
Chances are he is basing his statement on the fights Naruto had in Part 2 until this point. Which is the bell test that happened in Konoha. And the fight against the Akatsuki's in the Gaara rescue arc that happened in the River Country but getting Intel about the latter fight would be pretty hard.



Ultrafragor said:


> 4) Naruto eavesdropping is a non-feat. Might as well say he was jonin level at beginning of part 1 because he was able to steal an S-rank scroll full of kinjutsu and read it, then defeat a village chunin that was corrupt.



Naruto standing directly above Shizune for an extended period of time without her noticing is a stealth feat.
If everyone could pull something like that off Hayate wouldn't have been discovered by Kabuto and Baki in the CE arc.

Lets be honest from what we have seen about Konoha and its shinobi in the later stages of the Manga there is no way Naruto should have been capable of pulling that off. The whole event makes no sense. Even moreso than your earlier example of the Chunin exams.

Mizuki is practically featless and Naruto overwhelming somebody with clonespam happened multiple times in the manga.


Ultrafragor said:


> 5) Why would Jiraiya be worried when Naruto was with Kakashi and had already been bailed out by kyuubi chakra against a good handful of jonin level opponents already? This is a non-feat and isn't suggestive of anything.



Kakashi alone isn't nearly enough. The last time he faced the Akatsuki he got put in a coma and we already know what happens when Kakashi fights against Akatsuki members with a team that can't pull its weight in the Immortal arc. Kakuzu would have killed him.



Ultrafragor said:


> 6) Kakashi meant Naruto surpassed his skill. Combining nature transformation with Rasengan was something Kakashi didn't have the capability to do, even as an adult. This doesn't mean Naruto's taijutsu, genjutsu, or overall combat potential surpassed Kakashi. Especially not when everyone knows Kakashi also had Kamui at that point in time.



Kamui is straight up the only way Kakashi can take out Kakuzu outside of that he gets killed and using Kamui on an opponent that can attack from multiple directions is a tall order for IA Kakashi without backup.

When facing Naruto Kakuzu tried to stay away and keep the battle at long range yet Naruto outplayed him twice and got within striking distance both times.

Naruto is also a bad matchup for kakashi. He can outfeint him, he has a large stamina advantage, his Ninjutsu gets overpowered or stalemated by a Rasengan and Kamui is useless against multiple targets.

Genjutsu wise Naruto knows about the Sharingan and how to avoid it, which is why itachi had to use things like finger genjutsu and his Sharingan crow to ensnare Naruto something Kakashi can't replicate. To make matters worse kakashi's best genjutsu feat is him putting featless anbu fodders to sleep. When Itachi tried the same thing against Naruto he resisted it.


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 2, 2019)

MarF said:


> Kakashi never used his Sharingan in the first bell test. It wasn't revealed until the Wave arc.
> 
> Sakura didn't really do anything in that fight apart from punching the ground once. thats it.
> Naruto had a short shuriken fight with Kakashi's clone and also used a clonefeint against him which Kakashi remarks upon. It's also Naruto who figures out Kakashi's "Weakness" and gets them the bells.
> ...



1) You're downplaying Sakura finding where Kakashi was hiding and stopping his next move, but saying Naruto talking out loud was somehow more impressive? Talk about bias......

2) It's a training exercise with his students. Kakashi is using the Sharingan to avoid using more force on them, not because he's gonna die if he doesn't power up. In order to test Naruto and Sakura's skills, it's necessary to not all out blitz them. If he can beat them both in taijutsu, beating their asses doesn't tell him how much they're grown or what level they're at. It's a feat, in a way, but it's not a faet that says "Kakashi can't beat them without Sharingan!" Kakashi, during the entire training, should be considered as not-serious. Otherwise, Sakura is now sannin level because she survived training with Tsunade where Tsunade tried to land full force blows on her.

3) If Danzo isn't using old data to bolster his current assessments, then his words go out the window. Danzo's assessment being accurate would then rely on Naruto and Neji both being forced to use their full power, and then Danzo being in a position to observe or collect info on that, in the early part of shippuden. If anything interferes with that (and many things could) then Danzo's statement is off. That's far from reliable.

4) Sensing requires effort. You're saying every jonin in every scenario must have equal sensing to whatever bar you've set that suits your argument. There's no reason for Shizune to be on guard in the Hokage's office in the heart of the leaf village.

5) Lol, Mizuki is "featless" so you're just going to ignore his rank because it might damage your argument? Even though several points you've offered so far are based solely on a character's rank and not any actual feats? Please stop

6) So now Naruto, before even developing FRS, is supposed to be good enough to fight Akatsuki? You're confusing manga hype with your own fabrications.

7) No, BoS Naruto won't actually beat Kakashi. What the fuck is wrong with you?


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## MarF (Jan 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> 1) You're downplaying Sakura finding where Kakashi was hiding and stopping his next move, but saying Naruto talking out loud was somehow more impressive? Talk about bias......



Mea culpa Sakura had two feats not one... Also Naruto figuring out a weakness of Kakashi and sucessfully exploiting it is a bit more than just talking out loud, sounds like you are the one downplaying here...



Ultrafragor said:


> 2) It's a training exercise with his students. Kakashi is using the Sharingan to avoid using more force on them, not because he's gonna die if he doesn't power up. In order to test Naruto and Sakura's skills, it's necessary to not all out blitz them. If he can beat them both in taijutsu, beating their asses doesn't tell him how much they're grown or what level they're at. It's a feat, in a way, but it's not a faet that says "Kakashi can't beat them without Sharingan!" Kakashi, during the entire training, should be considered as not-serious. Otherwise, Sakura is now sannin level because she survived training with Tsunade where Tsunade tried to land full force blows on her.


I get what you are trying to say about this being a exercise and Kakashi not being serious, but keep in mind that neither was Naruto if he was he would have used KN0 or higher.



I don't know how that sounds to you, but to me it sounds like Kakashi had to use his Sharingan often enough he can't even say with certainity that his stamina will last until Sunrise.
It's also doubtful if Kakashi can even outright blitz Naruto, seeing as he was able to intercept a serious Chiyo who has a 4.5 in Taijutsu and a 4 in Speed in the databook, could hang with Sasori and survived multiple encounters with Hanzo.



Ultrafragor said:


> 3) If Danzo isn't using old data to bolster his current assessments, then his words go out the window. Danzo's assessment being accurate would then rely on Naruto and Neji both being forced to use their full power, and then Danzo being in a position to observe or collect info on that, in the early part of shippuden. If anything interferes with that (and many things could) then Danzo's statement is off. That's far from reliable.


If Danzo is basing his Statement on data that is outdated by 2,5 years and is completely irrelevant at this point, seeing as Neji obviously got stronger and became a Jounin in that timeframe while Naruto trained with a Sannin for the same amount of time he would have to be a complete and utter retard.

The village elders received regular reports about T7(which would include the belltest and the Gaara rescue mission) from Shizune and Neji is an active Jounin going on missions. Danzo has both elders in his pocket and commands a secret ANBU force... I'd be surprised if he didn't have detailed intel about Naruto and Neji.


Ultrafragor said:


> 4) Sensing requires effort. You're saying every jonin in every scenario must have equal sensing to whatever bar you've set that suits your argument. There's no reason for Shizune to be on guard in the Hokage's office in the heart of the leaf village.


I'd be inclined tp agree with you if it weren't for the fact that the conversation happened outside of the Hokage's tower and they were also talking about the information they gained from Sasori about the meeting he was supposed to have with Kabuto, that's not exactly information you would talk about without making sure nobody is listening in. Naruto also didn't just sneak up on her he stood directly above her quite a while listening in to the whole conversation.


Ultrafragor said:


> 5) Lol, Mizuki is "featless" so you're just going to ignore his rank because it might damage your argument? Even though several points you've offered so far are based solely on a character's rank and not any actual feats? Please stop


Sorry if I was unclear about Mizuki, I was pretty tired yesterday. I brought up Mizuki's lack of feats because he has no known ability or the physical stats needed that would allow him to counter Naruto's clonespam like others did.
Sasuke resorted to his Katon when he got overwhelmed by Naruto's clones in the rooftop fight. Gaara resorted to transforming into Shukaku. Mizuki has nothing like that so him getting beaten by Ch1 Naruto just means that he is trash tier and nothing else.

Also unlike the Jounin rank, the Chunin rank isn't based on skill and power to any degree that we heard of. It seems to be solely based on intellect and leadership skills.


Ultrafragor said:


> 6) So now Naruto, before even developing FRS, is supposed to be good enough to fight Akatsuki? You're confusing manga hype with your own fabrications.


Is he good enough to beat an Akatsuki member(apart from Hidan with knowledge maybe) 1vs1? No definitely not. But strong enough that he isn't a liability like Chouji and Ino against Kakuzu in fact this happened:


And while this is only shoten Itachi, he's still a lot stronger than your average Jounin.


Ultrafragor said:


> 7) No, BoS Naruto won't actually beat Kakashi. What the fuck is wrong with you?


I'm sorry, what?
I never said that BoS Base Naruto will beat Kakashi. I said IA Naruto can beat him based on his feats against Kakuzu, his portrayal that places him on the same level as Kakashi and the fact that he is actually a pretty shitty matchup for Kakashi.

btw aren't we kind of derailing this(possibly dead) thread quite a bit?


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