# KCM Naruto vs The Sannin



## Kyu (Aug 3, 2014)

*Location:* Naruto vs Ei
*Distance:* 20m
*Knowledge:* Manga
*SoM:* Bloodlusted
*Conditions:*
-No ET
-Jiraiya starts in SM
-Tsunade has 10% Katsuyu on the battlefield
-Naruto can't summon any other toad besides Gamakichi
-This is the most recent KCM so Kurama is cooperative 


Fight.


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## Cognitios (Aug 3, 2014)

So just to clarify Kurama will take Naruto out of Genjutsu?
And won't take chakra away?
Will Kurama give more chakra upon request?


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## Kyu (Aug 3, 2014)

> So just to clarify Kurama will take Naruto out of Genjutsu?



Yeah. Why wouldn't he?



> And won't take chakra away?


No.



> Will Kurama give more chakra upon request?


Yes but not enough to enter Biju Mode.

The maximum amount of chakra Kurama will provide is enough to pop out a dozen clones.(although Naruto can do that while Kurama was siphoning his chakra but neither here nor now).


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2014)

I'm in the opinion that KCM Naruto only surpassed Jiraiya, and I believe Jiraiya can give him one hell of a fight.
I do not believe that KCM Naruto can defeat all 3 sannin, and no, I don't believe in the whole clones thing. As I think the way people think
of the clones is way too broken, and it's not as such in the manga imo.

but either way, that's how I see it.
Not gonna debate it though.


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## Kyu (Aug 3, 2014)

> I'm in the opinion that KCM Naruto only surpassed Jiraiya, and I believe Jiraiya can give him one hell of a fight



Despite the fact that SM Naruto is superior to SM Jiraiya in damn near all physical aspects and is packin a shit ton more firepower?

and Naruto's KCM > SM by a considerable margin.


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## Cognitios (Aug 3, 2014)

KCM Naruto takes this. 
His innate durability allows him to tank most of the Sannin's attacks. It's easier to list the things that could harm him than the things that couldn't. Tsunade's punch is really the only game changer they have, nothing else is life threatening to Naruto.
His overwhelming offense allows for many 1hko moves against the sannin, and his improved chakra capacity allows him to carry those  out. At 20 meters bloodlusted I can see him taking out Orochimaru or Tsunade from the getgo. 
Naruto takes this mid diff


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## Ghost (Aug 3, 2014)

Naruto low diff.

20 meter starting distance and blood lust? Naruto is going to kill one of them immediately.


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## Tohoma (Aug 3, 2014)

Naruto takes this.


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Despite the fact that SM Naruto is superior to SM Jiraiya in all physical aspects and is packin a shit ton more firepower?
> 
> and Naruto's KCM > SM by a considerable margin.



The statement was about the mastery of SM itself. 

and I honestly see KCM and SM comparable. @.@
Regardless, that's how kishi portrayed them when he compared team 7 to the Sannin.
That's how I see those chapters...


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## xZurp (Aug 3, 2014)

Nardo stomps, under these stipulations, it's going to be VERY hard for the Sannin to do much of anything. While I'm one of those who think Naruto CAN do very well against opponents in his tier level. Simply because of clones spamming powerful attacks. He can't do it against more powerful ones, so spamming KCM clones isn't > all.

But against groups of opponents around his level, he's a monster. It's just so hard to deal with all those clones at once, with their emotion sensing, and with the sheer amount of chakra at their disposal. If any of them run out, Kurama just gives them more (like when Naruto took out Madara's Mokuton jutsu).

I don't really see what they could do against him, Frog Song takes too long to prep, Jiraiya would be hard pressed to deal with 4 of these clones spamming FRS and maybe COFRS to summon Ma + Pa and survive long enough for them to gather the nature chakra. Even if by some divine miracle he does, I'm not sure if it can target more than one person. (I can't remember, it probably can and I'm being an idiot)

That's their only hope. Sanin are pretty much screwed otherwise.


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## Hachibi (Aug 3, 2014)

Doing a Stan Lee just to say that FRS GG


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## xZurp (Aug 3, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Doing a Stan Lee just to say that FRS GG



You read me like a book


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## egressmadara (Aug 3, 2014)

naruto shouldn't have much trouble here.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

Naruto gets fodderized. Anyone of the sannin would still provided a very tough match for KCM-Naruto. In-fact I don't even think KCM-Naruto is above their general "level" individually.


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## Hachibi (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Naruto gets fodderized. Anyone of the sannin would still provided a very tough match for KCM-Naruto. In-fact I don't even think KCM-Naruto is above their general "level" individually.





Sanin have no anwser to close-range FRS, Kage-level clone or enough speed to dodge his rasengan


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## JuicyG (Aug 3, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Sanin have no anwser to close-range FRS, Kage-level clone or enough speed to dodge his rasengan





SM Jman's big ball rasengan can nullify naruto's...as for the FRS i'm not sure how they will deal with this..certainly they wont go head to head with it.


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> SM Jman's big ball rasengan can nullify naruto's...as for the FRS i'm not sure how they will deal with this..certainly they wont go head to head with it.



Oro can summon the Rashomon gates.


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## xZurp (Aug 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Oro can summon the Rashomon gates.



Then they can just go around and shoot more off . Orochimaru can't just go around summoning gates willy nilly after all.


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## Mercurial (Aug 3, 2014)

Lol typical Turrin.

Nardo makes some clones and throws some Rasenshuriken while the Sannin cannot stop or harm him. Then the Sannin die.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

Typical Naruto-Fan, ignoring what Kishimoto made blatantly obvious. Base-Jiriaya w/o killing intent fought KN4 and Orochimaru w/ body failure and missing his arms fought KN4 and survived. KN4's raw-power is greater than anything KCM-Naruto demonstrated. So KCM-Naruto's raw-power is not winning him the match easily, even against handicapped Jiriaya and Orochimaru. As for the clones, once again people like to only look at Dat-clone, but don't consider other clones which failed to defeat Kimimaro or all the other clones that were lack luster in comparison to Dat-Clone. Dat-Clone had more chakra dedicated to him and help, that's all that was. 

Anyway nothing indicates KCM-Naruto would stomp all over any Sannin individually. He stands zero chance against all three.


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## Kai (Aug 3, 2014)

The most recent KCM should have the ability to merge SM with KCM, therefore his raw power should be magnitudes greater than KN4.


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## Cognitios (Aug 3, 2014)

> Turrin arguing about kishimoto's portrayal of character being uber important
> Hates Itachi


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## LostSelf (Aug 3, 2014)

Naruto wins. I mean, wasn't him the guy whose clones were fighting Kages? If Naruto focuses those clones on the Sannin and moves at the speed he moved against the Raikage's full power, then the Sannin gets wasted as they will be getting a lot of incredibly fast shinobis beyond their skill to react all the time greeting them with FRS.

Now, if Naruto fights like he did against Itachi, he is screwed.


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## Bonly (Aug 3, 2014)

To put it simple and short Naruto just overwhelms them eventually, he pretty much outclasses the three of them.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

Kai said:


> The most recent KCM should have the ability to merge SM with KCM, therefore his raw power should be magnitudes greater than KN4.


This is true, but I get the impression that when someone says KCM-Naruto, they mean Naruto only using his KCM form, not KCM and SM, KCSM, or whatever. 

KCSM-Naruto would decisively defeat the Sannin individually (sans Edo-Tensei Orochimaru). Though I still believe he looses to them collectively; with that said having never seen KCSM-Naruto it's hard to say anything definitive (he certainly looses though if Orochi has Edo-Tensei).


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 3, 2014)

KCM Naruto with all 12 of his clones pre BM could definitely push the Sannin , but defeating all 3 would be tricky , at this point he was barely scratching the surface of his power and had finally reached the point where he's slightly stronger than them but not yet quite as strong as Nagato or Minato until he got to BM, I give it to Sannin probably Mid Diff based on the feats he showed in the war , to be honest Sage Mode was outperforming KCM throughout the war


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## Mercurial (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Typical Naruto-Fan, ignoring what Kishimoto made blatantly obvious. Base-Jiriaya w/o killing intent fought KN4 and Orochimaru w/ body failure and missing his arms fought KN4 and survived. KN4's raw-power is greater than anything KCM-Naruto demonstrated. So KCM-Naruto's raw-power is not winning him the match easily, even against handicapped Jiriaya and Orochimaru. As for the clones, once again people like to only look at Dat-clone, but don't consider other clones which failed to defeat Kimimaro or all the other clones that were lack luster in comparison to Dat-Clone. Dat-Clone had more chakra dedicated to him and help, that's all that was.
> 
> Anyway nothing indicates KCM-Naruto would stomp all over any Sannin individually. He stands zero chance against all three.



And they were utterly trashed.

And KCM Naruto >>>>>>>> KN4 Naruto.

Not at all. It's simply that Kishimoto didn't care (probably there weren't sealers to use fuuinjutsu on Chiyo and Kimimaro) or their strength wasn't needed (the 1st and 2nd division field was already floored and the 3rd division field had Kakashi and Gai so there wasn't much to show for the Naruto clone). Saying otherwise it's just speculation.

His feats and their feats perfectly indicate that he fodderstomps them and that they get fodderstomped. He could defeat all of them like the clone did initially with the 3rd Raikage, or just make clones and launch some fucking Rasenshurikens.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 3, 2014)

Lol wat.

COFRS >> Anything KN4 Naruto dishes out. And there's the difference between berserk and using power under control.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 3, 2014)

Narutos clones are Third Raikage level. Naruto wins


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Lol wat.
> 
> COFRS >> Anything KN4 Naruto dishes out. And there's the difference between berserk and using power under control.


How is COFRS > Bijuu-Bomb?


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## Psp123789 (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Typical Naruto-Fan, ignoring what Kishimoto made blatantly obvious. Base-Jiriaya w/o killing intent fought KN4 and Orochimaru w/ body failure and missing his arms fought KN4 and survived. KN4's raw-power is greater than anything KCM-Naruto demonstrated.


KN4 naruto was fighting mindlessly against oro and jirayia. KCM naruto would dance over a mindless KN4 Naruto



> So KCM-Naruto's raw-power is not winning him the match easily, even against handicapped Jiriaya and Orochimaru.


 Base jirayia and armless oro are tiers below KCM naruto. Yes it is. Unless you can tell me how they're stopping COFRS or multiple regular FRS coming from a dozen different clones. They also need to deal with his speed, chakra arms, emotion sensing, etc.



> As for the clones, once again people like to only look at Dat-clone, but don't consider other clones which failed to defeat Kimimaro or all the other clones that were lack luster in comparison to Dat-Clone. Dat-Clone had more chakra dedicated to him and help, that's all that was.


We don't even know what happened when the clone fought kimmi and the clones disappeared anyway when naruto started fighting tobi. Dat clone had just as much chakra as the other clones. This sounds like a bullshit excuse dude.



> Anyway nothing indicates KCM-Naruto would stomp all over any Sannin individually. He stands zero chance against all three.


Tsunade, jirayia and oro would get destroyed completely against a Full power KCM naruto by themselves. Even together they're still getting their asses kicked.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> KN4 naruto was fighting mindlessly against oro and jirayia.
> .


So it's about the tactical ability of KCM-Naruto, not the raw-power, correct. Hence my point that  KCM-Naruto isn't overwhelming them with raw-power alone. 

With that said I do not think it's fair to say Naruto lacks any tactical ability when he is in Tailed form. We clearly saw him use tactics against Orochimaru and against Deva-Realm. In-fact the higher end tactical feats of KN4 are much better than the lower end tactical feats of KCM-Naruto; or do I need to point out how KCM-Naruto handled himself against Nagato's abilities?



> KCM naruto would dance over a mindless KN4 Naruto


No he wouldn't. KCM-Naruto fought V2 Jins that don't have feats anywhere close to the power of KN4, and he was not dancing all over them. In-fact we never saw him strike a decisive blow against any of them. 



> Base jirayia and armless oro are tiers below KCM naruto


Jiriaya and Orochimaru while significantly  handicapped would loose to KCM-Naruto, but not because of raw-power alone.



> Yes it is. Unless you can tell me how they're stopping COFRS


BZ was stopping FRS by simply tripping Naruto with roots and throwing off FRS trajectory. Jiraiya's Doton skills can do the same exact thing; so could Fusaku and Shima's sound based techniques. Orochimaru survived a Bijuu-Bomb with Sanju Roshomon and Doton; he'd do the same thing here. Naruto simply throwing a FRS or COFRS at Orochimaru or Jiriaya is not going to work. He'd have to use feints, which means using his tactical skill rather than raw-power.



> or multiple regular FRS coming from a dozen different clones.


Give me the panel where Naruto has Dozens of clones use FRS in tandem; otherwise it's fanfiction. 



> They also need to deal with his speed


His speed when not using Shunshin is not astronomically high. 



> chakra arms


They dealt with KN4, chakra arms aren't cutting the mustard. His Shunshin is dangerous, but he hardly ever uses it offensively and never uses it consistently.



> emotion sensing


Jiriaya's detection barrier; Shima/Fusaku Sensing/Tracking abilities are vastly superior to emotion sensing. So is Orochimaru's Snake Detection 



> e don't even know what happened when the clone fought kimmi and the clones disappeared anyway when naruto started fighting tobi. Dat clone had just as much chakra as the other clones. This sounds like a bullshit excuse dude.


You know what sounds like a Bullshit excuse. We don't know what happened with the other clones, that sounds like a bull-shit excuse to me. You wanna know why, because none of the other clones demonstrate the level of dat-clone and KCM-Naruto in general never demonstrated anywhere near the ability where he could take on 14 Kages at once, ether. The guy was overpowered the moment he faced multiple V2 Jin, and there is no way those V2 Jin are suppose to be stronger than 14 Kages. Sandaime-Raikage alone fought Hachibi to a draw, who is much stronger than any single V2 Jin. And so on. Not even BM-Naruto could take 14 Kages, that's how ridiculous this shit is.



> Tsunade, jirayia and oro would get destroyed completely against a Full power KCM naruto by themselves. Even together they're still getting their asses kicked.


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2014)

KCM Naruto w/ less than half his max chakra made 13 clones that could fight at the kage level, use super speed, chakra arms, form bijuudama rasengan, and fire guided fuuton rasenshuriken.  A single one showed the ability to land a rasenshuriken on someone as fast as sandaime raikage.

The sannin get stomped.  Each of the members are going to be up against at least 5 kcm clones, none of them survive a rasenshuriken that sandaime raikage couldn't dodge.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> KCM Naruto w/ less than half his max chakra made 13 clones that could fight at the kage level, use super speed, chakra arms, form bijuudama rasengan, and fire guided fuuton rasenshuriken.  A single one showed the ability to land a rasenshuriken on someone as fast as sandaime raikage.
> 
> The sannin get stomped.  Each of the members are going to be up against at least 5 kcm clones, none of them survive a rasenshuriken that sandaime raikage couldn't dodge.



So according to your estimate KCM-Naruto could fight 28+ Kages 

Even BSM Naruto would have his ass handed to him by 28+ Kages


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So according to your estimate KCM-Naruto could fight 28+ Kages


Nah, but he can beat 13+ kage level ninjas depending on who those shinobi are



Turrin said:


> Even BSM Naruto would have his ass handed to him by 28+ Kages


based on?


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So according to your estimate KCM-Naruto could fight 28+ Kages
> 
> Even BSM Naruto would have his ass handed to him by 28+ Kages



The clones are overrated, and they obviously not at the same level either as I doubt BZ, Chiyo, or Kimmimaro as powerful as the 3rd either.

Also, Naruto's clones fought Madara's Limbo, and Kaguya defeated hundreds of those clones at once. Does that mean Kaguya can defeat several hundreds of JJ madara as well. -_____-

but oh well, I guess all those 600+ chapters of mass of the clones getting defeated easily, are not enough...


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Nah, but he can beat 13+ kage level ninjas depending on who those shinobi are


You said he could create 13 Kage-Class KB, when at less than half his chakra. Therefore he must be able to create at least 26 Kage Class KB when at full chakra. Than he should be able to take on 1 Kage himself. So that's 27, but since you said less than half I imagine it must be at least 28, if not more; hence 28+

But even 13+ is laughable



> based on?






Hussain said:


> The clones are overrated, and they obviously not at the same level either as I doubt BZ, Chiyo, or Kimmimaro as powerful as the 3rd either.
> 
> Also, Naruto's clones fought Madara's Limbo, and Kaguya defeated hundreds of those clones at once. Does that mean Kaguya can defeat several hundreds of JJ madara as well. -_____-
> 
> but oh well, I guess all those 600+ chapters of mass of the clones getting defeated easily, are not enough...



Thank god somebody gets it. I mean for fucks sake, KCM-Naruto never once performed up to the standard that he'd be at if he could take 13+ Kages. Even BM-Naruto never lived up to that standard. And what's even funnier is the feat of taking that Kage, happened with Sennin Modo (& help) and not KCM.


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The clones are overrated, and they obviously not at the same level either as I doubt BZ, Chiyo, or Kimmimaro as powerful as the 3rd either.


1) the clone didn't solo the third
2) Chiyo and Kimimaro were working together
3) You doubt black zetsu wasn't as powerful as the third?  Even by feats, BZ was stalemating Mei, choujurou and a small army of jounin



Hussain said:


> Also, Naruto's clones fought Madara's Limbo, and Kaguya defeated hundreds of those clones at once. Does that mean Kaguya can defeat several hundreds of JJ madara as well. -_____-


The heck?  since when does limbo clone = JJ Madara?  Naruto's clones lost to madara's limbo clones, and I don't doubt that Kaguya could just fodderize Madara's limbo clones like she did to Naruto's kagebunshins



Hussain said:


> but oh well, I guess all those 600+ chapters of mass of the clones getting defeated easily, are not enough...


That's such a ridiculously boneheaded statement.  I'm sure people way weaker than Kaguya would slaughter KCM Naruto's clone army, yet does that mean a clone can't beat Konohomaru?  

You consciously deciding to ignore who's the one instantly defeating these mass bunshins shows how unsupported your argument is as it forces you to ignore crucial points that would flat out falsify it.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 3, 2014)

If naruto and his clones perform at maximum proficiency(full co-op from kurama, FRS in KCM, Big ball rasengan barrages in SM, expert usage of sage sensing and flash shunshin etc) i could see him pulling off a win.

It's not totally out of this world to think that.


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You said he could create 13 Kage-Class KB, when at less than half his chakra. Therefore he must be able to create at least 26 Kage Class KB when at full chakra. Than he should be able to take on 1 Kage himself. So that's 27, but since you said less than half I imagine it must be at least 28, if not more; hence 28+


except he's only been shown to hold 13 kagebunshins of that quality.  Simply having the chakra to make a certain amount of clones =/= ability to make and maintain that amount of clones.




Turrin said:


> But even 13+ is laughable



based on?  Yeah that's what I thought, you've got absolutely nothing.


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## Psp123789 (Aug 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So it's about the tactical ability of KCM-Naruto, not the raw-power, correct. Hence my point that  KCM-Naruto isn't overwhelming them with raw-power alone.
> 
> With that said I do not think it's fair to say Naruto lacks any tactical ability when he is in Tailed form. We clearly saw him use tactics against Orochimaru and against Deva-Realm. In-fact the higher end tactical feats of KN4 are much better than the lower end tactical feats of KCM-Naruto; or do I need to point out how KCM-Naruto handled himself against Nagato's abilities?


No, Tailed beast mode naruto doesn't use tactics. He relies on overpowering his opponents. What tactical feats does KN4 naruto have? KCM naruto is the same as SM naruto who was casually outsmarting pein. Okay dude first of all naruto was gimped in the nagato fight since he could not use clones, second that fight was full of PIS. For example how naruto forgets the abilities of pein right after fighting him.




> No he wouldn't. KCM-Naruto fought V2 Jins that don't have feats anywhere close to the power of KN4, and he was not dancing all over them. In-fact we never saw him strike a decisive blow against any of them.


 KCM naruto was exhausted and out of chakra when he fought the jins. Did you not see him switching in and out of his KCM? There's also the fact that he didn't even have kurama's cooperation at that point.




> Jiriaya and Orochimaru while significantly  handicapped would loose to KCM-Naruto, but not because of raw-power alone.


So you're saying naruto can't just overpower a gimped jirayia and oro? 




> BZ was stopping FRS by simply tripping Naruto with roots and throwing off FRS trajectory. Jiraiya's Doton skills can do the same exact thing; so could Fusaku and Shima's sound based techniques. Orochimaru survived a Bijuu-Bomb with Sanju Roshomon and Doton; he'd do the same thing here. Naruto simply throwing a FRS or COFRS at Orochimaru or Jiriaya is not going to work. He'd have to use feints, which means using his tactical skill rather than raw-power.


Wow can't believe you're using that BS showing to further you r argument. Jirayia's dotons are all getting either dodged or destroyed by rasengan variants. Naruto goes around rashomon and proceeds to nuke oro. Who said overpowering them is the only way he can beat them?




> Give me the panel where Naruto has Dozens of clones use FRS in tandem; otherwise it's fanfiction.


Lol dude 1 clone used FRS against the 3rd raikage right? Each clone has equal chakra right? So why the hell wouldn't he be able to do that?




> His speed when not using Shunshin is not astronomically high.


Much higher than anything the sannin have shown. He was on par with a V1 Ei.




> They dealt with KN4, chakra arms aren't cutting the mustard. His Shunshin is dangerous, but he hardly ever uses it offensively and never uses it consistently.


Those chakra arms are capable of casually crushing stone and can fire off techs so yes they are a problem. Shunshin is something he can spam tho and the mindset here is BL so why wouldn't he take advantage of it.




> Jiriaya's detection barrier; Shima/Fusaku Sensing/Tracking abilities are vastly superior to emotion sensing. So is Orochimaru's Snake Detection


Not really since emotion sensing prevents them from landing any attacks on him while all of the things you listed don't.




> You know what sounds like a Bullshit excuse. We don't know what happened with the other clones, that sounds like a bull-shit excuse to me. You wanna know why, because none of the other clones demonstrate the level of dat-clone and KCM-Naruto in general never demonstrated anywhere near the ability where he could take on 14 Kages at once, ether.


Hahah okay dude. Despite the fact that all of the clones were distributed equal amounts of chakra, somehow one of them is more powerful than the others . All clones have the same abilities of the original. Also I'm pretty sure KCM naruto could handle a dozen tsunades.



> The guy was overpowered the moment he faced multiple V2 Jin, and there is no way those V2 Jin are suppose to be stronger than 14 Kages.


He was overpowered because he was exhausted. Again do you not remember him switching in and out of KCM? Why do u keep mentioning 14 kages?  



> Sandaime-Raikage alone fought Hachibi to a draw, who is much stronger than any single V2 Jin. And so on. Not even BM-Naruto could take 14 Kages, that's how ridiculous this shit is.


Again i'm pretty sure BM naruto could take out 14 tsunades.



>


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2014)

ueharakk

I don't plan to debates about this whole clones thing. I think it's painfully obvious how such jutsu works in the manga. What even worst, it's the fact when there are masses of clones they are treated the same in every damn manga I have ever watch, not only Naruto, and surely, it's not as people think they are.... 

but whatever you like man....


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ueharakk
> 
> I don't plan to debates about this whole clones thing. I think it's painfully obvious how such jutsu works in the manga. What even worst, it's the fact when there are masses of clones they are treated the same in every damn manga I have ever watch, not only Naruto, and surely, it's not as people think they are....
> 
> but whatever you like man....


Exactly, you're forced to back out of the debate and just close by reasserting the biased argument that because mass clones 'get treated the same in every manga' that it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it could be 100 konohomarus vs 100 kcm clones, the results will be the same: the KCM clones get fodderized.


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2014)

^

take it however you like, I don't really care. I do care how kishi portrayed them.
1

^^


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> take it however you like, I don't really care. I do care how kishi portrayed them.
> 1
> ...



Parallels don't only exist for power levels my friend.

Oh yeah and don't forget about gamakichi+giant FRS i should put that in the last post in the thread.


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## ueharakk (Aug 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> take it however you like, I don't really care. I do care how kishi portrayed them.
> 1
> ...



Right, because orochimaru w/ edo minato, edo tobirama and edo hirzuen = tsunade

Kishi portrayed them all as equally useful.  He portrayed a KCM Naruto who had just got back enough chakra to re-enter that form as equally useful to the alliance as Sakura after storing chakra in her seal for 2.5 years to heal the entire remainder of the shinobi alliance.

That has absolutely nothing to do with a combat scenario where KCM Naruto w/ his full chakra reserves goes up against Sakura 1 vs 1.  

If you want to comment on something, comment on how a single KCM clone fought on par with the edo kages, how a base naruto clone saved gaara and oonoki, a sm clone combo'd with gaara and oonoki to force madara to use the rinnegan.

comment on how all of the gokage bar oonoki were getting thrashed by 5 mokuton clones.

comment on your precious hiruzen actually beating edo hashirama and tobirama via base kagebunshins in part 1.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> No, Tailed beast mode naruto doesn't use tactics. He relies on overpowering his opponents. What tactical feats does KN4 naruto have? KCM naruto is the same as SM naruto who was casually outsmarting pein.


I already cited the tactical feats. Go back and re-read the Pain and Orochimaru fights.



> . Okay dude first of all naruto was gimped in the nagato fight since he could not use clones, second that fight was full of PIS. For example how naruto forgets the abilities of pein right after fighting him.


More clones doesn't erase Naruto's tactical blunder and everything is plot so that is a poor argument. Naruto has always been inconsistent as far as his tactical prowess is concerned. He makes stupid mistakes some-times while making brilliant ploys other times. 



> KCM naruto was exhausted and out of chakra when he fought the jins. Did you not see him switching in and out of his KCM? There's also the fact that he didn't even have kurama's cooperation at that point.


If Naruto could WTFPWN KN4, it should not matter if he was lower on chakra or not; he should have still been winning easily against V2-Jin that were not as powerful as KN4. If you want to bring up Naruto needing to be full power, than fine, but that in-turn tells us Naruto isn't stomping KN4.



> So you're saying naruto can't just overpower a gimped jirayia and oro?


He could the gimped versions, because they'd run out of steam due to their gimping. However he would not do so casually, we'd get something akin to KN4 vs Orochimaru, where Orochimaru counters KCM-Naruto's attacks, than eventually his body fails and he escapes. But he wouldn't stomp them with raw-power alone, even when they are gimped. And when at full-power raw-power alone isn't working.



> Wow can't believe you're using that BS showing to further you r argument. Jirayia's dotons are all getting either dodged or destroyed by rasengan variants.


Yes let's pretend that using Doton to change the trajectory of attacks, doesn't work. It's not like Kitsuchi did it against the Juubi; oh wait. And let's pretend BZ's fucking around root trips are more potent than Jiriaya's Doton's (or even Senpo Dotons). That makes a whole lot of sense 



> Naruto goes around rashomon and proceeds to nuke oro.


What's that you say; Naruto use tactical ability rather than Raw-Power alone working. Yeah that was my whole point.



> Who said overpowering them is the only way he can beat them?


I said Raw-Power alone isn't enough. You than proceed to put my post on blast. Now your arguments have to do with tactical ability. Maybe you should have read my post first, before responding 



> Lol dude 1 clone used FRS against the 3rd raikage right? Each clone has equal chakra right? So why the hell wouldn't he be able to do that?


All the clones have equal chakra is so P1, clones are no longer bound to that shit anymore. 



> Much higher than anything the sannin have shown. He was on par with a V1 Ei.


You mean the R1 Ei Suigetsu reacted to? Yeah Sannin can deal with that level of speed. In-fact Ei saw KCM Naruto's speed, and expected Tsunade to be effective against KCM-Naruto; and Tsunade is the slowest Sannin. 



> hose chakra arms are capable of casually crushing stone and can fire off techs so yes they are a problem.


Nothing KN4 couldn't do; in-fact KN4 had better chakra arm manipulation



> Shunshin is something he can spam tho and the mindset here is BL so why wouldn't he take advantage of it.


Because he's never shown the ability to efficiently use Shunshin offensively or consistently in KCM.



> Not really since emotion sensing prevents them from landing any attacks on him while all of the things you listed don't.[/QUOTE
> No it doesn't. Your making it seem like emotion sensing is like Sennin Modo sensing when it's not.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Trojan (Aug 3, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Parallels don't only exist for power levels my friend.
> 
> Oh yeah and don't forget about gamakichi+giant FRS i should put that in the last post in the thread.



it's not only about power, but in that case it was clearly about power. Team 7 have surpassed the Sannin, and a new area has come. As for scenarios they are easy to make. For example

Jiraiya use his Barrier: , and stay there until Ma/Pa prepare their Frog Song, when its ready, he comes out and use it directly.

and there you have it folks, Jiraiya is stronger than all SA, the Hokages, Madara, 8th gate Guy...etc
put together as none of them can stop Frog Song. 

Naruto defeats 14 Tsunade? It sure would be lovely to see him against 100% Katsuyu wouldn't you agree? 

anyway, as I stated earlier, that's my interpretation of those chapters, they were clearly portrayed to have surpassed the Sannin in those chapters, and Kishi even spent several chapters about that, and even the volume itself named after it.

KCM Naruto > Jiraiya
EMS Sasuke (no PS) > Oro
Sakura > Tsunade. 

That's my take...U_U


----------



## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 3, 2014)

Sage Naruto had the power and amount of clones to take out Kyuui 50%. KCM Naruto produced clones that were efficient than Tsunade.

KCM Naruto is faster than Ei, Naruto speedblitzing all of them and hitting them with Rasenshuriken is whats most likely to happen here.


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## Trojan (Aug 4, 2014)

> [=ueharakk;51389473]Right, because orochimaru w/ edo minato, edo tobirama and edo hirzuen = tsunade


If only Kishi takes it the way you do. 
1
Oro having the 4 Hokages under his control is not technically consider his power. What Kishi portrayed is obviously Oro's own power.  


> Kishi portrayed them all as equally useful.  He portrayed a KCM Naruto who had just got back enough chakra to re-enter that form as equally useful to the alliance as Sakura after storing chakra in her seal for 2.5 years to heal the entire remainder of the shinobi alliance.


I don't know what does being useful have to do with what Kishi portrayed. Otherwise he wouldn't have made Sakura states that she caught up to them. 


> That has absolutely nothing to do with a combat scenario where KCM Naruto w/ his full chakra reserves goes up against Sakura 1 vs 1.



She seems to believe otherwise. 


> If you want to comment on something, comment on how a single KCM clone fought on par with the edo kages, how a base naruto clone saved gaara and oonoki, a sm clone combo'd with gaara and oonoki to force madara to use the rinnegan.


We have debated this years ago, and that's why I think it's pointless to go over it again.
As I do believe those clones had help. Not to mention the Raikage was mindless and does not control himself. The brain is a big deal as well. 


> comment on how all of the gokage bar oonoki were getting thrashed by 5 mokuton clones.



The Kages were fighting Madara for hours. Gaara was against the past Kages right before fighting Madara. Tsunade was injured from the teleportation and she was giving her chakra to them the whole time. A was fighting with only 1 hand. 

Not to mention the fact that Madara was a zombi who was revived beyond his true power. He did not have to care about his chakra, on the other hand Naruto has to care about his chakra. 


> comment on your precious hiruzen actually beating edo hashirama and tobirama via base kagebunshins in part 1.



That part is normally for trolling. Nevertheless, Hiruzen used the strongest seal, a seal that makes ALL jutsus useless, and as the DB stated, there is no escaping it. 
and they were mindless as well.


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## Cognitios (Aug 4, 2014)

Sakura's statements on her own abilities should be taken with a grain of salt after she was under the impression she could hold off fucking juubidara


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 4, 2014)

Sage Mode Naruto surpassed Jiraiya during the Pain arc due to mastering Sage Mode, something Jiraiya never could. He had Frog Katas, Sensing, Rasenshuriken, etc.

Then later, Naruto told Nagato he was much stronger than he was when they first fought (which was with Sage Mode).

And even Base Jiraiya is stronger than Tsunade so Tsunade is almost a non-factor here.

Orochimaru without Edo Tensei really can't contribute much here either.

Theres nothing stoping Naruto from just blitzing and landing Rasenshurikens at his leisure.


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## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2014)

oh so im guessing you are going to arge



Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> take it however you like, I don't really care. I do care how kishi portrayed them.
> Link removed
> ...


----------



## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 4, 2014)

If the clone from Naruto wouldn't have gotten out of KCM due to lack of chakra due to Naruto using 12 other clones, he could have defeated the Raikage by himself, which he later did.

So if Naruto only creates two clones, how powerful are they gonna be?

And here in this scenario, Kurama can lend the clones chakra....


----------



## Trojan (Aug 4, 2014)

> =ueharakk;51389592]oh so im guessing you are going to arge


wut? 



> Where did you get this from?  Why are you all of a sudden making exceptions?  Edo tensei is part of Orochimaru's power just like it's part of Kabuto's power.  So no, if you want to make exceptions for Orochimaru despite Kishi never implying such, then you make exceptions for every character, and therefore what I said is true, that Sakura is only being compared as an overal shinobi, not in a 1 vs 1 battle.



1- It's stated otherwise in the manga as believing the other's people's power is your own was considered to be wrong. 

2- For the sake of the argument, let's consider it as such, so? 
You do realise that when Oro is bounding them...

Hashirama might free himself if Oro let his guard down as he stated, so he must be focusing on the the entire time.
Minato and Tobirama can't even use their FTG jutsu, that's barely leave them with anything.
Kurama is not controlled by Oro's edo, and he does not necceiraly going to hel him either. Not to mention Kurama can simply take the control over Minato or break him free. That's in addition to the contract seal...etc




> Because combat obviously isn't the only thing that determines the merit of a ninja.  Naruto and Sasuke went to combat the Juubi, Sakura went to heal the alliance.  Kishi obviously is portraying Sakura healing the alliance as what makes puts her on their level.



Sakura at first went to fight and destroyed a lot of the Juubi's clones with only one punch. Even Hashirama stated that they are touch. Sakura also showed such an enormous amount of chakra...


> oh really?  Show me Sakura stating that she thinks she could compete against KCM naruto at full power in a fight?


Link removed



> Sure the clone had help.  Sure he didn't control himself.  How does that make the clone not kage level?  Did gaara beat the trollkage solo?  Did Oonoki beat muu solo?


"Kage level" is not like a point where the X character must be at this amount of power to be called a Kage. You have for example the 4th Kazekage, he is a Kage, yet people called him fodder, no? 

Jiraiya especially, imo is stronger than all the Kages so far except for Minato and Hashirama... 
also, the clones get destroyed with basically any hit.  


> So what?  They were all getting thrashed and had absolutely no chance at beating even a single of those clones.  Tsunade was constantly healing the gokage before the clones popped up, so all the fighting before that point meant nothing.


So, they were not at full power. The same like Naruto when he fought itachi, a weaker opponent than
Jiraiya, or when he fought the BZ. would you ignore that he was not at full power? 

by that logic as well, the Gokage forced Madara to use his PS twice, while BM Naruto, B, and Guy
couldn't, does that indicates that madara found them stronger? 


> So what?  you said that clones get fodderized right regardless of who they are fighting and regardless of how powerful the clones are.  Are you going to withdraw that statement?


They did got fodderize at the end of the day. 


> So you agree then that even back in part 1, shadow clones can solo kages?  Why does it matter what the clones used?  If anything that hurts your argument since it shows that each clone is capable of using such a high level jutsu.


Solo Kages who are mindless and not at full power? Yeah, sure they can. 
The problem with the Kages being at full power and with their mind.

If it were that easy, then Naruto would have used 6 clones and defeats the 6 jins or 
he would have defeated VOTE Sasuke by making only 1 extra clone, or Kimmimaro and the list goes on and on and on. 

by this logic as well, I suppose Kishi would make Naruto a Hokage, and make him use a clone
or 2 to fight Sasuke and defeat him (which would be nice to see btw lol) 


> And again i'll ask you, can Konohomaru beat one of naruto's KCM clones?  If not, then obviously you're going to make an actual comparison of the clone's abilities and the opponent they are fighting in order to say who'd win or who wouldn't.



Konohamaru is a child who barely entered any fight, he has no such feats/hype or anything. 
Kishi obviously does not view the Sannin like that, he did not spen an entire damn volume for that
to tell us "oh see those fodders, they can even deal with Naruto's clones, but I'll just portrayed them like this for the lols"

When Naruto first received his KCM the same thing was said about him, then there was that huge slap when he fought itachi (who's inferior to Jiraiya by his own admission) and Nagato who almost killed him instantly. 

I can't see Kishi making KCM Naruto defeats all of the Sannin by clones. 
you stated in previous debates/threads that you take the portrayal and all of that and that's how 
you rate the characters, so I don't see why is Jiraiya any different. 

anyway, we will probably have to agree to disagree, and I think we both know that.
so let's just leave it at that. 

Thanks for your time. ^_^


----------



## Psp123789 (Aug 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I already cited the tactical feats. Go back and re-read the Pain and Orochimaru fights.


Mindless naruto does not try to include tactics in his actions. The only one I can think of is when he redirected ST back onto pein.




> More clones doesn't erase Naruto's tactical blunder and everything is plot so that is a poor argument. Naruto has always been inconsistent as far as his tactical prowess is concerned. He makes stupid mistakes some-times while making brilliant ploys other times.


Tactical blunder? You mean getting overpowered because you're exhausted is a tactical blunder? Naruto's battle tactics haven't been very inconsistent ever since he fought pein. For the nagato fight you have to remember how useful clones were in his fight against pein so naturally he would need them against someone who's stronger. Naruto also turned into a complete dumbass that fight and that was pretty much the only major retard moment he had the entire war arc.




> If Naruto could WTFPWN KN4, it should not matter if he was lower on chakra or not; he should have still been winning easily against V2-Jin that were not as powerful as KN4. If you want to bring up Naruto needing to be full power, than fine, but that in-turn tells us Naruto isn't stomping KN4.


So you're basically not only restricting 90% of naruto's arsenal, but also kurama's cooperation against multiple V2 Jins that even Bee was struggling against? Then you say that current KCM naruto with war arc feats and kurama's cooperation won't beat mindless KN4 Naruto? Are we reading the same manga?




> He could the gimped versions, because they'd run out of steam due to their gimping. However he would not do so casually, we'd get something akin to KN4 vs Orochimaru, where Orochimaru counters KCM-Naruto's attacks, than eventually his body fails and he escapes. But he wouldn't stomp them with raw-power alone, even when they are gimped. And when at full-power raw-power alone isn't working.


Naruto creates 10 clones that proceed to kick the shit out of jirayia or oro and then Naruto launches a COFRS, what do Jirayia and Oro do? What is your definition of using only raw power? Just running at them blindly?




> Yes let's pretend that using Doton to change the trajectory of attacks, doesn't work. It's not like Kitsuchi did it against the Juubi; oh wait. And let's pretend BZ's fucking around root trips are more potent than Jiriaya's Doton's (or even Senpo Dotons). That makes a whole lot of sense


You're suggesting that naruto can't dodge or destroy jirayia's dotons? 




> What's that you say; Naruto use tactical ability rather than Raw-Power alone working. Yeah that was my whole point.
> I said Raw-Power alone isn't enough. You than proceed to put my post on blast. Now your arguments have to do with tactical ability. Maybe you should have read my post first, before responding


Oh so u agree that naruto beats the sannin just that he needs to use tactical actions in order to do so? 




> All the clones have equal chakra is so P1, clones are no longer bound to that shit anymore.


So you are saying that current KCM naruto's clones can't use FRS even with kurama's cooperation? You do realize kurama can give them enough chakra to use it right? 




> You mean the R1 Ei Suigetsu reacted to? Yeah Sannin can deal with that level of speed. In-fact Ei saw KCM Naruto's speed, and expected Tsunade to be effective against KCM-Naruto; and Tsunade is the slowest Sannin.


Yes the sannin are totally dealing with 13 clones zipping around them while launching FRS while the real naruto preps COFRS to nuke them. Tsunade is shit compared to naruto by feats.




> Nothing KN4 couldn't do; in-fact KN4 had better chakra arm manipulation


Oh so KN4 can launch multiple rasengan variants from its chakra arms?




> Because he's never shown the ability to efficiently use Shunshin offensively or consistently in KCM.


There is no reason why naruto cant use such a low rank tech in battle




> No it doesn't. Your making it seem like emotion sensing is like Sennin Modo sensing when it's not.


It allows naruto to know when his enemy is about to attack him which allows him to counter their attack. Also the clones can go SM if they want to.





> You just said he could take 12 Tsunade. That's 12 Kages. And if all the clones were equal as you say and he created 13+ clones and than there is also the original, that's 14 clones that could fight Kages.


Yup.




>


Lol so you think 14 tsunades could beat BM Naruto? Okay i'll bite. How? I won't try to keep going after since its off topic but just tell me how.


----------



## ueharakk (Aug 4, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ]
> 1- It's stated otherwise in the manga as believing the other's people's power is your own was considered to be wrong.


where?  and was that context in regards to edo tensei? 



Hussain said:


> 2- For the sake of the argument, let's consider it as such, so?
> You do realise that when Oro is bounding them...
> 
> Hashirama might free himself if Oro let his guard down as he stated, so he must be focusing on the the entire time.
> ...


Why wouldn't minato and tobirama be able to use their FTG jutsu?  How can kurama take control over an edo




Hussain said:


> Sakura at first went to fight and destroyed a lot of the Juubi's clones with only one punch. Even Hashirama stated that they are touch. Sakura also showed such an enormous amount of chakra...
> 
> Link removed


So what if Sakura did that?  Naruto and Sasuke were actually attacking the juubi.  Sakura did no attacking after she summoned katsuyu, and it was only after she summoned katsuyu that hiruzen thought about the sannin deadlock.  So nope.

I see nothing that implies Sakura thought she could compete with sasuke and naruto in an actual 1 vs 1 fight.  



Hussain said:


> "Kage level" is not like a point where the X character must be at this amount of power to be called a Kage. You have for example the 4th Kazekage, he is a Kage, yet people called him fodder, no?
> 
> Jiraiya especially, imo is stronger than all the Kages so far except for Minato and Hashirama...
> also, the clones get destroyed with basically any hit.


So you do believe that these clones are kage level then?  These clones obviously don't get destroyed with any hit when Naruto's base clones of clones got sent flying by madara's susanoo, when KCM Naruto blew up a tree by running headfirst into it, when Naruto's clones blocked swordstrikes with no damage, when Naruto's base clone was damaged by the meteors.  So unless it's a very powerful hit, it's not popping the clones.



Hussain said:


> So, they were not at full power. The same like Naruto when he fought itachi, a weaker opponent than
> Jiraiya, or when he fought the BZ. would you ignore that he was not at full power?


Except they were at full power as Tsunade was constantly healing them and restoring their chakra throughout their fight with madara up until the mokuton bunshins were made, so nope.

KCM Naruto wasn't restored to his full chakra before he fought edo itachi (who btw >> Jiraiya), naruto's clone was at full power, as it's full power = the amount of chakra it had when naruto created it.



Hussain said:


> by that logic as well, the Gokage forced Madara to use his PS twice, while BM Naruto, B, and Guy
> couldn't, does that indicates that madara found them stronger?


Except Madara never used mokuryu against the gokage, and BM Naruto only fought seriously with him for half a chapter which resulted in madara getting blown up by hirudorah.  Then before they were able to continue fighting, the Juubi arrived.  So nope.



Hussain said:


> They did got fodderize at the end of the day.


Don't waste my time.  Mei vs 5 susanoo clones, does Mei win?  Tsunade vs 5 susanoo clones, does she win?  Ei vs 5 susanoo clones does Ei win?  Gaara vs 5 susanoo clones, does gaara win?

Are we arguing truth here, or is it me arguing truth and you simply trying to dodge my arguments?



Hussain said:


> Solo Kages who are mindless and not at full power? Yeah, sure they can.
> The problem with the Kages being at full power and with their mind.


The kages are being controlled, so their actions are controlled by a mind.  It doesn't matter if those kages are at full power or not, the clones solo'd them and therefore can solo kages.  



Hussain said:


> If it were that easy, then Naruto would have used 6 clones and defeats the 6 jins or
> he would have defeated VOTE Sasuke by making only 1 extra clone, or Kimmimaro and the list goes on and on and on.


*
 Reason why naruto couldn't use clones to defeat jins.  *
*reason why KN1 naruto didn't use clones against sasuke at VoTe* not to mention the same reason he didn't just summon bunta
Kimimaro was simply way more powerful than the kn0 naruto who fought him

The list does not go on, in fact the list you've just provided is absolutely irrelevant since we know the quality of KCM Naruto's clones and what they are capable of.



Hussain said:


> by this logic as well, I suppose Kishi would make Naruto a Hokage, and make him use a clone
> or 2 to fight Sasuke and defeat him (which would be nice to see btw lol)


Why?  Since when have any of naruto's current clones been shown to fight people like Sasuke 1 vs 1 and win?



Hussain said:


> Konohamaru is a child who barely entered any fight, he has no such feats/hype or anything.
> Kishi obviously does not view the Sannin like that, he did not spen an entire damn volume for that
> to tell us *"oh see those fodders, they can even deal with Naruto's clones, but I'll just portrayed them like this for the lols"*


Based on what logic do you claim the bolded?  One of those sannin was getting fodderized by madara's clones, why would kishi have the sannin get fodderized by madara's clones?  What does Kishi spending time on the sannin in a volume have anything to do with how powerful they are compared to the top tiers 400 chapters after that volume came out?  




Hussain said:


> When Naruto first received his KCM the same thing was said about him, then there was that huge slap when he fought itachi (who's inferior to Jiraiya by his own admission) and Nagato who almost killed him instantly.


The naruto that fought edo itachi (who'd wreck jiraiya) and Nagato had split his chakra so much that he couldn't even use another kagebunshin.   Naruto didn't even want to fight with Nagato, and naruto had been fighting nagato for over a chapter, so how in the world is that killing naruto instantly?  The sannnin wouldn't even survive a chapter against crippled nagato.



Hussain said:


> I can't see Kishi making KCM Naruto defeats all of the Sannin by clones.
> you stated in previous debates/threads that you take the portrayal and all of that and that's how
> you rate the characters, so I don't see why is Jiraiya any different.


Yet there's absolutely no portrayal argument that puts jiraiya on the level of defeating multiple clones that fight on the same damn level as gaara.



Hussain said:


> anyway, we will probably have to agree to disagree, and I think we both know that.
> so let's just leave it at that.
> 
> Thanks for your time. ^_^


I'll probably never agree with your argument because it's just so unsupported.


----------



## Panther (Aug 4, 2014)

This matchup has been done since the moment KCM Naruto's clones started beating high-Kage lvl opponents in the manga while having Kurama still draining his chakra, and even then the consensus was that KCM Naruto would stomp the sannin low diff either alone or send 3/4 RM clones to deal with them.


----------



## ARGUS (Aug 4, 2014)

Naruto wrecks them 

--he is faster than all the sannin as none of the sannin are even reacting to his speed that was faster than even V2 A. and can also use his speed to evade most of the sannins attacks as well as bltiz them 

--He creates over 10 KB each of them being kage level, and gets them to fire off FRS/COFRS and Rasengan barraages which shit on any of the sannins defenses and easily overwhelm them

--Kurama cooperating means that he doesnt have to worry about his chakra taken meaning that he can create COFRS to get rid of each of the sannin with ease,

--Summons are utmost non factor and are each getting nuked off the planet through narutos firepower, 

--Restricting ET, and having a starting distance of 20m means sannin are dying


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Mindless naruto does not try to include tactics in his actions. The only one I can think of is when he redirected ST back onto pein.


He doesn't use tactics, but come to think of it, here is a tactic he used. 

That's what you just posted



> Tactical blunder? You mean getting overpowered because you're exhausted is a tactical blunder? Naruto's battle tactics haven't been very inconsistent ever since he fought pein. For the nagato fight you have to remember how useful clones were in his fight against pein so naturally he would need them against someone who's stronger. Naruto also turned into a complete dumbass that fight and that was pretty much the only major retard moment he had the entire war arc.


Naruto didn't make a tactical blunder, but he turned to a complete dumbass that fight. 

That's what you just posted




> So you're basically not only restricting 90% of naruto's arsenal, but also kurama's cooperation against multiple V2 Jins that even Bee was struggling against? Then you say that current KCM naruto with war arc feats and kurama's cooperation won't beat mindless KN4 Naruto? Are we reading the same manga?


The better question is are you reading my posts, because I never said KCM-Naruto wouldn't beat KN4, I said he wouldn't stomp him. The fact that your saying KCM-Naruto needs his full-power to win , tells me you can't defend that assertion ether. 



> Naruto creates 10 clones that proceed to kick the shit out of jirayia or oro and then Naruto launches a COFRS, what do Jirayia and Oro do?


Naruto created a bunch of clones and they get swept by Jiriaya or Orochimaru's AOE Techniques. Naruto launches FRS they get thrown off course by Doton or Roshomon. 



> What is your definition of using only raw power? Just running at them blindly?


My definition is just straight forward attacks. Throwing FRS right at them. Just charging them with Rasengan Variants in a linear fashion. Etc... If Naruto plans and use KB, chakra-arms, etc... strategically then it becomes Naruto using tactics 

Simply put if Jiriaya and Orochimaru lost it wouldn't be because they can't handle the power out put of KCM-Naruto, it would be that they can't handle how KCM-Naruto stragically uses that power.



> You're suggesting that naruto can't dodge or destroy jirayia's dotons?


He failed to dodge BZ's roots, so yeah, I don't think he is going to casually dodge Jiriaya's dotons

Can he eventually formulate a plan around them, sure, but again that comes down to tactics



> Oh so u agree that naruto beats the sannin just that he needs to use tactical actions in order to do so?


No I believe KCM-Naruto can beat a Sannin, depending on the conditions and how tactical he is in that fight. He won't beat all 3.



> So you are saying that current KCM naruto's clones can't use FRS even with kurama's cooperation? You do realize kurama can give them enough chakra to use it right?


The opening restricted the amount of chakra Kurama can give Naruto. Also at the point where Kurama gives Naruto that much chakra it might as well be BM-Naruto vs the Sannin rather than KCM-Naruto.



> Yes the sannin are totally dealing with 13 clones zipping around them while launching FRS while the real naruto preps COFRS to nuke them. Tsunade is shit compared to naruto by feats.


KCM-Naruto has no feats of doing this. Give me one page where he has 13 clones use FRS and the main body use COFRS at the same time. The total amount of FRS we've ever seen KCM-Naruto use at any given time amounts to about 4



> Oh so KN4 can launch multiple rasengan variants from its chakra arms?


How is that solely a chakra arm feat? That's Chakra Arms + other Jutsu. 



> There is no reason why naruto cant use such a low rank tech in battle


Except he never does. 



> It allows naruto to know when his enemy is about to attack him which allows him to counter their attack. Also the clones can go SM if they want to.


No it allows Naruto to know his enemy has killer intent. If the enemy always has killer intent it isn't doing shit. Or if his enemy sets up an attack that doesn't have killing intent it isn't doing shit ether; hence why he didn't know BZ's roots were coming at all.

It useful, but it's not allowing him to aim dodge shit and than counter attack. Otherwise give me an example where that is the case. 

The rest I won't even dignify with a response.


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## Psp123789 (Aug 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> He doesn't use tactics, but come to think of it, here is a tactic he used.
> 
> That's what you just posted


Him redirecting ST back onto is the only thing mindless naruto has done that can even be considered a tactic but it's still him overpowering his opponent. Which is by my definition overwhelming them with your attacks. Not fighting like an idiot which is what you're saying.




> Naruto didn't make a tactical blunder, but he turned to a complete dumbass that fight.
> 
> That's what you just posted


Turning into a complete dumbass that fight meaning he forgot nagato's techs due to PIS. I was also talking about his fight against tobi. Error in tactics=tactical error. No he didn't make a tactical error since he was unable to use tactics against nagato in the first place .





> The better question is are you reading my posts, because I never said KCM-Naruto wouldn't beat KN4, I said he wouldn't stomp him. The fact that your saying KCM-Naruto needs his full-power to win , tells me you can't defend that assertion ether.


KCM naruto with his full power would stomp KN4. That's what i've been saying. I never said exhausted KCM naruto without kurama's cooperation would stomp KN4. But with it he would and i have already stated why. You're basically saying that since naruto can't defeat him while in a massively gimped state he can't stomp him at full power.




> Naruto created a bunch of clones and they get swept by Jiriaya or Orochimaru's AOE Techniques. Naruto launches FRS they get thrown off course by Doton or Roshomon.


What attacks do jirayia and oro have that are going to wipe out clones moving at that speed. You're acting like they're fodder. Dotons get destroyed, i already said how he counters roshomon.




> My definition is just straight forward attacks. Throwing FRS right at them. Just charging them with Rasengan Variants in a linear fashion. Etc... If Naruto plans and use KB, chakra-arms, etc... strategically then it becomes Naruto using tactics


Okay so naruto creating clones and then overpowering them is using tactics? You're basically saying that naruto can't use one of his main attacks which is stupid.




> Simply put if Jiriaya and Orochimaru lost it wouldn't be because they can't handle the power out put of KCM-Naruto, it would be that they can't handle how KCM-Naruto stragically uses that power.


So you're basically saying that naruto can't use clones or chakra arms when he's trying to simply overpower them.




> He failed to dodge BZ's roots, so yeah, I don't think he is going to casually dodge Jiriaya's dotons


Except naruto has feats proving that he can casually deal with the dotons. Sounds like you're trying to use that low end showing as an excuse.




> Can he eventually formulate a plan around them, sure, but again that comes down to tactics


Why does that matter? It seems like you're just trying to prove that naruto needs to use tactics to win against the sannin




> The opening restricted the amount of chakra Kurama can give Naruto. Also at the point where Kurama gives Naruto that much chakra it might as well be BM-Naruto vs the Sannin rather than KCM-Naruto.


No naruto still has kurama's full chakra pool available to him. He just can't use it to go BM.




> KCM-Naruto has no feats of doing this. Give me one page where he has 13 clones use FRS and the main body use COFRS at the same time. The total amount of FRS we've ever seen KCM-Naruto use at any given time amounts to about 4


Again each of the 13 clones can use FRS. Naruto has used COFRS. There is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do that. Naruto's clones spam FRS and distract the sannin, KCM naruto preps and launches COFRS. Why can't he do that?




> How is that solely a chakra arm feat? That's Chakra Arms + other Jutsu.


Good job you just stated why they are superior . Since KN4 can't use chakra arms + other justsu




> Except he never does.


In the manga due to PIS. He already showed he can casually do it in the manga so why cant he do it here?




> No it allows Naruto to know his enemy has killer intent. If the enemy always has killer intent it isn't doing shit. Or if his enemy sets up an attack that doesn't have killing intent it isn't doing shit ether; hence why he didn't know BZ's roots were coming at all.


It's still going to be effective against surprise attacks as shown by Han or combination attacks. Naruto can also have his clones use SM so there's that to think about.





> The rest I won't even dignify with a response.


Yes please stop, that tsunade wank was disgusting.


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2014)

He turned into a dumbass, but didn't make a tactical error  

Yeah i'm done with you


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## Psp123789 (Aug 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> He turned into a dumbass, but didn't make a tactical error
> 
> Yeah i'm done with you


 Seems like you don't know what a tactical error is and have never heard of something called PIS. Concession accepted.


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Seems like you don't know what a tactical error is and have never heard of something called PIS. Concession accepted.


The moment you argued PIS, you already conceded the point


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## JuicyG (Aug 4, 2014)

Sannin take this..


with the 3 of them side by side, they should be able to find a way to stop naruto's movements and proceed to Tsuande beat down


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## Psp123789 (Aug 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The moment you argued PIS, you already conceded the point


I wasn't the one that was using PIS genius. You conceded ever since you starting arguing that naruto needs "tactics" to win instead of defending the sannin.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 4, 2014)

Granted KCM Naruto could defeat them 1v1(he's not stomping lol) however I do not see him beating all three together.


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## Amol (Aug 5, 2014)

KCM naruto with his overpowered clones wins very easily actually.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 5, 2014)

Kyu said:


> *Location:* Naruto vs Ei
> *Distance:* 20m
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> *SoM:* Bloodlusted
> ...



I reckon Naruto will win. He's able to make several clones Kurama is cooperative.

About 2, max 3 clones could _easily_ handle a Sannin if Naruto plays his cards right. Here he's got more than enough chakra to make each Sannin deal with, say 6 clones per Sannin.

Since this is BL, you can easily make a game plan for Naruto to win easily. Just get him to distract the Sannin, which he can with the nature of his arsenal in KCM and get him to use some yellow flash speed to land a Rasengan, FRS or even mini-Bijuu Dama.

Worst comes to worst, Naruto can stack SM on top of KCM, which increases how broken he is whilst giving him access to the frog katas.


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## richard lewis (Aug 5, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Granted KCM Naruto could defeat them 1v1(he's not stomping lol) however I do not see him beating all three together.



I'd have to disagree, I think naruto could stomp any of them 1 vs 1. He's tier above all of them in terms of speed "except for SM Jiraiya, who can keep up but naruto would still have a solid edge", he's got far superior fire power, and he's got a near endless chakra supply. I just don't see how they could compete with him at all 1 v 1, naruto could nuke the crap out of them with a barrage of FRS. The only sannin that has a shot is orochimaru with several ET's prepped.

However all 3 at once is a different story, I can see it going either way but would lean slightly towards the sannin very high diff. The sannin have the combined defensive abilities to withstand naruto attacks "rashamon gates, Katsuya, giant snakes, tsunade's healing, ect...". I can see naruto slipping up and leaving himself open for attack, a punch from tsunade would end him, as would a stab through the heart/head from kusangai, even one of Jiraiya's sage powered rasengans would deal heavy damage. Naruto is gunna have to try and separate them and take them down one by one to win. It's not out of the question for him to win but I think the sannin have better odds, and even if he does win it certainly won't be a stomp LMAO.


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