# Healthy Nagato vs SM Hashirama



## LegionGod (Jul 15, 2020)

Full Knowledge
Restrictions: None
Intent: to kill

Who wins?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Danisor (Jul 15, 2020)

Nagato has no answer for Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands.Restrict Sage Mode, Nagato's gets ripped apart.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lyren (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama cockslaps

Reactions: Like 4


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## Gianfi (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama low diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama overwhelms his opponent with the Mokujin and the Buddha statue.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Jul 15, 2020)

Low diff spite.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Jul 15, 2020)

Nagato gets destroyed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## blk (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama literally clap diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 15, 2020)

Healthy Nagato vs Sick Man Hashirama? Nagato has a good chance here tbf.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama shitdffs

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

Nagato summons Gedo Mazo and Spirit Dragon blitzes and soul rips Hashirama if Wood Buddha is summoned out the gate like it was against Madara. If that's not how Hashirama usually fights then it's even worse for Hashirama since boss toad crippling Shinra Tensei oneshots from this distance


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## Grinningfox (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama pummels him with SS

Reactions: Like 2


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato summons Gedo Mazo and Spirit Dragon blitzes and soul rips Hashirama if Wood Buddha is summoned out the gate like it was against Madara. If that's not how Hashirama usually fights then it's even worse for Hashirama since boss toad crippling Shinra Tensei oneshots from this distance



Hanzo trolled that dragon with a simple body flicker technique. It will *never* touch Hashirama especially when he's using Sage mode.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> Hanzo trolled that dragon with a simple body flicker technique.


That wasn't a simple body flicker or else Hanzo's army would have "simply body flickered" away.. Clearly Hanzo is a much more skillled teleporter than average. That's like giving Shisui's body flicker feats to everyone because "Hey, simple body flicker right? "


Mr Killer said:


> It will *never* touch Hashirama


Why wouldn't it at it's velocity while Hashirama has to sit stationary ontop controlling the Wood Buddha?


Mr Killer said:


> especially when he's using Sage mode.


How does Sage Mode help him against Spirit Dragon?


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> That wasn't a simple body flicker or else Hanzo's army would have "simply body flickered" away.. Clearly Hanzo is a much more skillled teleporter than average.


Uh, no it's still a simple body flicker technique. Of course Hanzo is above the average shinobi. But this doesn't change the fact that it's still a simple body flicker technique.

That's like saying Naruto's shadow clone technique is different from the one used by any average Jounin because he's Naruto.



MaruUchiha said:


> That's like giving Shisui's body flicker feats to everyone because "Hey, simple body flicker right?


Wrong.

Because Hanzo was never praised for his speed. Unlike Shisui who made a nickname of it.



MaruUchiha said:


> Why wouldn't it at it's velocity while Hashirama has to sit stationary ontop controlling the Wood Buddha?


A) because Hashirama is faster than Hanzo.
B) if Hashirama is already in top of the Buddha he simply uses it to squish the Gedo Mazo before it can cause him any trouble.



MaruUchiha said:


> How does Sage Modwle help him against Spirit Dragon?


By increasing his already fast reflexes and by giving him sensing.


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## Itachi san88 (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama obliterates Nagato and his Gedo Mazo with SS, Mokujin or the Deity Gates (they takes away the will of opposing, one of the best Hashi's jutsu).  Wood Dragon also can counter Nagato's Preta Path.

Kishi never intended for Nagato to be interpreted stronger than Hashi or Madara.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> Uh, no it's still a simple body flicker technique. Of course Hanzo is above the average shinobi. But this doesn't change the fact that it's still a simple body flicker technique.


Besides God Tiers we've only seen *Minato and Shisui* teleport out of an entire area like Hanzo did. He might not have teleportation hype like Minato or Shisui, but to act like anyone can replicate that teleportation feat is nonsense. Especially because we saw his entire army get massacred right before that


Mr Killer said:


> That's like saying Naruto's shadow clone technique is different from the one used by any average Jounin because he's Naruto.



Naruto's Shadow Clone Jutsu IS different from any average Jonin's, that's my entire point. He's been shown using it on a level far beyond the average, but with your logic Naruto's Shadow Clone spam applies to just anyone? Because "Hey basic Shadow Clone Jutsu"


Mr Killer said:


> Because Hanzo was never praised for his speed. Unlike Shisui who made a nickname of it.


So regardless of his insane teleportation feat it applies to every other ninja because Hanzo was never hyped for his teleportation?



Mr Killer said:


> A) because Hashirama is faster than Hanzo.


Except Hashirama is not a teleporter, and he's stuck stationary ontop of the Wood Buddha anyway


Mr Killer said:


> B) if Hashirama is already in top of the Buddha he simply uses it to squish the Gedo Mazo before it can cause him any trouble.


This is a standard distance. The slow ass Wood Buddha is not reaching the Gedo Mazo in time before the fast ass Spirit Dragon soul rips Hashirama

Besides this was a far weaker version of Nagato

How much damage would 1000 Hands really do against a far stronger version of this?


Mr Killer said:


> By increasing his already fast reflexes and by giving him sensing.


That doesn't help against Spirit Dragon. Especially not when Hashirama is starionary controlling the Buddha.. If he even jumps off to avoid the dragon then the Wood Buddha stops functioning


Itachi san88 said:


> Hashirama obliterates Nagato and his Gedo Mazo with SS


That slow thing is not reaching Nagato before the way faster Spirit Dragon soul rips. There's also this

Which would be far stronger here

Preta Path also negs


Itachi san88 said:


> Mokujin


Preta Path negs


Itachi san88 said:


> Deity Gates


OOC to use here since Nagato isn't a Bijuu, and Hashirama has no reason to seal Nagato. This is almost as bad as "Totsuka Blade gg"


Itachi san88 said:


> Wood Dragon also can counter Nagato's Preta Path.


It would also get obliterated by Deva or Asura Path before it reaches Nagato


Itachi san88 said:


> Kishi never intended for Nagato to be interpreted stronger than Hashi or Madara.


Sure Pain and Edo Nagato aren't, but based on what is a full powered Nagato with full powered Gedo Mazo not with Rinnegan's Godlike power and portrayal?


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## Speedyamell (Jul 15, 2020)

I have nagato on founder tier below SS hashirama and kurama madara, but above base hashirama and madara without kurama. 
He might lose here. But saying it's low diff just sounds redundant to me. How does hashirama "low diff" someone that can create village sized meteors and crater konoha several yards deep.. Someone that can use gedo mazo and soul draining dragons..
I don't see that being the case at all

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> I have nagato on founder tier below SS hashirama and kurama madara, but above base hashirama and madara without kurama.
> He might lose here. But saying it's low diff just sounds redundant to me. How does hashirama "low diff" someone that can create village sized meteors and crater konoha several yards deep.. Someone that can use gedo mazo and soul draining dragons..
> I don't see that being the case at all


See I don't mind this. We can atleast agree Nagato vs Hashirama is debatable, but we get into Naruto Founderdome territory when fools start talking about Hashi low or shit diffs


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## LegionGod (Jul 15, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> I have nagato on founder tier below SS hashirama and kurama madara, but above base hashirama and madara without kurama.
> He might lose here. But saying it's low diff just sounds redundant to me. How does hashirama "low diff" someone that can create village sized meteors and crater konoha several yards deep.. Someone that can use gedo mazo and soul draining dragons..
> I don't see that being the case at all


But most of Nagato's jutsus has many side effects and even his super Shinra Tensei needs prep time. Hashirama can casually spam OP jutsu without problems. He's more powerful.


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## Speedyamell (Jul 15, 2020)

LegionGod said:


> But most of Nagato's jutsus has many side effects and even his super Shinra Tensei needs prep time. Hashirama can casually spam OP jutsu without problems. He's more powerful.


I didn't say otherwise..
But while nagato's jutsu have more "side effects" they are also more powerful than hashirama's. 
Nagato's strongest jutsu are > hashirama's. 
It's because of the very fact that hashirama can use his more casually that I believe he can win.
But I definitely don't concur to it being a low diff difficulty

Reactions: Like 1


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Besides God Tiers we've only seen *Minato and Shisui* teleport out of an entire area like Hanzo did. He might not have teleportation hype like Minato or Shisui, but to act like anyone can replicate that teleportation feat is nonsense. Especially because we saw his entire army get massacred right before that


Wrong again buddy.

Killer teleported across a mountain range during his fight with team Taka. So not that is not exclusive to speed legends like Minato or Shisui. I don't care about Hanzo's army of nameless ass fodders got massacred. Hashirama >>>> Hanzo >>>>> fodders. And Hanzo dodged that dragon.

The complete insanity here is thinking that a jutsu that its best feat is killing fodders is gonna blitz Hashirama.



MaruUchiha said:


> Naruto's Shadow Clone Jutsu IS different from any average Jonin's, that's my entire point. He's been shown using it on a level far beyond the average, but with your logic Naruto's Shadow Clone spam applies to just anyone? Because "Hey basic Shadow Clone Jutsu"



No, it's not different at all. It creates an exact replica of the user using the same chakra split method. Just like when used by any other jounin.

The only difference is that Naruto can creat much more thanks to his massive chakra. 



MaruUchiha said:


> So regardless of his insane teleportation feat it applies to every other ninja because Hanzo was never hyped for his teleportation?


Hashirama kept up with EMS Madara, nough said.


MaruUchiha said:


> That doesn't help against Spirit Dragon


It helps if he's on the ground.

If he's on top of the Buddha then he simply crushes the GM with a barrage of fists.


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> I didn't say otherwise..
> But while nagato's jutsu have more "side effects" they are also more powerful than hashirama's.
> Nagato's strongest jutsu are > hashirama's.
> It's because of the very fact that hashirama can use his more casually that I believe he can win.
> But I definitely don't concur to it being a low diff difficulty


Nagato has to push his eye power to the maximum to operate on the same scale that Hashirama casually operates on.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashi low diffs cuz Nagatos feats are shit by comparison

His stans also dont seem to grasp that if hes not an edo, he cant use the Rinnegans big guns or even spam the thing at all due to its strain.

Living Nagato has no fucking chance because using a ST on the scale hed need to in order to even PRAY he is relevant to Hashirama would make him cough out a lung

Poll is 1 to fucking 14 anyway

Tells you all you need to know about whos stanning in here

Reactions: Like 3


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## Speedyamell (Jul 15, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> Nagato has to push his eye power to the maximum to operate on the same scale that Hashirama casually operates on.


No. Nagato's full power eclipses hashirama's.
Nagato's best feats are on a far bigger scale than hashirama's and he still has some of the best feats on panel


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## LegionGod (Jul 15, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> I didn't say otherwise..
> But while nagato's jutsu have more "side effects" they are also more powerful than hashirama's.
> Nagato's strongest jutsu are > hashirama's.


Highly debatable. Hashi's second strongest jutsu is equal to 100% Kyuubi and he suppressed something like the Juubi in canon....


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> No. Nagato's full power eclipses hashirama's.
> Nagato's best feats are on a far bigger scale than hashirama's and he still has some of the best feats on panel


Nagato at full power can't match EMS Madara with the Kyuubi.


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## Speedyamell (Jul 15, 2020)

LegionGod said:


> Highly debatable. Hashi's second strongest jutsu is equal to 100% Kyuubi and he suppressed something like the Juubi in canon....


Equal to 100% kyuubi? And?
Even kyuubi + PS is still smaller than mountains 

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



And the CT a weakened nagato made still dwarfed the nearby mountain range

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



Nagato still shits on both founders it terms of scale. And we haven't even gotten to him cratering konoha 


And while suppressing the juubi is impressive I don't see how that is supposed to counter my scale argument


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## Speedyamell (Jul 15, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> Nagato at full power can't match EMS Madara with the Kyuubi.


Due to?


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> Due to?


Due to bein weaker than the founders via portrayal and feats (example: no counter to a mountain-range slicing waves).

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama stomps. Hashirama nuked Madara's Perfect Susano'o which > Madara's meteors which > anything Nagato has done.


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## ZmkSc (Jul 15, 2020)

If not for deva power's cool down, nagato could beat hashiram. With existing cool down, i would have to give it to  hashirama high diff.

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## Mawt (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama wins, sitting ovation diff.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

Restrict Wood Style and then we have a fight.


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## Bonly (Jul 15, 2020)

Nagato can put up a fight for a bit thanks to his arsenal but he doesn't stand a chance in beating Hashi once he starts bringing out his bigger guns like wood human and what not, having Hashi start in Sage Mode just means Nagato get taken out pretty fast


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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2020)

Hashirama would win without much trouble. Kishi made it very clear how powerful the Founders were when PS alone was something that was seen as completely above the paygrade of all 5 Kage. Hashirama took on Perfect Sussano *and* Kurama at the same time and came out on top. Nagato got taken out by KCM Naruto, Itachi and Killer Bee, there difference should be clear.


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

I can see it going either way. 

Pain's CST was far larger than Hashirama's Buddha, and we know for a fact that Nagato's power is ever greater than that.
SideNote: Pain's CST was used when Nagato was a mere skeleton, let alone Nagato with a healthy body.

CST has no gabs in between, so they will hit all arms at once. However, that will also depend on how the Buddha will take the hit.

From an ability perspective, Nagato should be fully capable of giving Hashirama a run for his money, if not outright defeat him.

 From a manga perspective, Hashirama will most definitely win one way or the other.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

Veracity said:


> . Nagato got taken out by KCM Naruto, Itachi and Killer Bee, there difference should be clear.


I am assuming the OP means Nagato can freely move and not under someone's control... 

But that's just an assumption...


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Restrict Wood Style and then we have a fight.


No, Hashirama gets demolished.


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

LegionGod said:


> But most of Nagato's jutsus has many side effects and even his super Shinra Tensei needs prep time.


You're talking about Pain, who was being controlled by a weakened cripple Nagato right?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Hashi low diffs cuz Nagatos feats are shit by comparison


Right this from a weakened Nagato is shit by comparison



WorldsStrongest said:


> His stans also dont seem to grasp that if hes not an edo, he cant use the Rinnegans big guns or even spam the thing at all due to its strain.


What strain? We've only seen drawbacks from using Gedo Mazo, and Chibaku Tensei from a weakened cripple Nagato.. This is a new one to downplay Nagato. I guess the downplayers will run with this one since I shut down the "Prime Nagato is fanfic" nonsense


WorldsStrongest said:


> Nagato has no fucking chance because using a ST on the scale hed need to in order to even PRAY he is relevant to Hashirama would make him cough out a lung


Where are you getting this from? The biggest drawback we saw from this is Nagato needing to shut off the other Paths.. Besides, the weaker version of Nagato aka Pain's scale with Cho Shinra Tensei was already on the level of the Founders



WorldsStrongest said:


> Poll is 1 to fucking 14 anyway
> 
> Tells you all you need to know about whos stanning in here


Right because the NBD which has a bad general consensus, that downplays Nagato plus Rinnegan in general, and is also ran by Founders wankers is definitely a place we can get honest results for this match


Veracity said:


> Nagato got taken out by KCM Naruto, Itachi and Killer Bee


That was a weakened version of Nagato who was being controlled by Kabuto, and was defeated by Totsuka Blade which is OOC for Itachi to use against a living Nagato

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> No, Hashirama gets demolished.



Nah, he can win. Sage Mode + Bringer of Darkness + Earth Style is all he needs.


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nah, he can win. Sage Mode + Bringer of Darkness + Earth Style is all he needs.





you do realize that Nagato is a sensor, and Hashirama's pitiful Genjutsu won't do jackshit, right?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

Hussain said:


> *you do realize that Nagato is a sensor, and Hashirama's pitiful Genjutsu won't do jackshit, right?*



Funny, where were all those sensors when Gengetsu was rickrolling an entire division of the Allied Shinobi Forces?

Also, , so...

Lmao at calling Hashirama's A-Rank Genjutsu that confounded a Kage (who himself has a 5 in the stat and is the Professor) pitiful.


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

Hussain said:


> you do realize that Nagato is a sensor, and Hashirama's pitiful Genjutsu won't do jackshit, right?


It's like the Rinnegan no longer works when Nagato faces Hashirama in the NBD


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Funny, where were all those sensors when Gengetsu was rickrolling an entire division of the Allied Shinobi Forces?
> 
> Also, , so...
> 
> Lmao at calling Hashirama's A-Rank Genjutsu that confounded a Kage (who himself has a 5 in the stat and is the Professor) pitiful.


He mentioned sensing because Bringer of Darkness takes away sight and Hiruzen demonstrated that you can keep fighting using other 4 senses and with chakra sensing you still have 5. So only logical question for you now is..

Can you turn left ?


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Funny, where were all those sensors when Gengetsu was rickrolling an entire division of the Allied Shinobi Forces?
> 
> Also, Sasuke canonically destroyed a sensor with his Genjutsu, so...
> 
> Lmao at calling Hashirama's A-Rank Genjutsu that confounded a Kage (who himself has a 5 in the stat and is the Professor) pitiful.



- dafug does Gengetsu's genjutsu (Which was specifically stated to block sensing) have to do with Hashirama's Genjutsu exactly? 

- Dafuq does Sasuke's Genjutsu have to do with anything? You do realize that those Genjutsus are different, right? 

- Yes, the same Kage who was 70+ (or 60+? can't remember his exact age) fought Hashirama & Tobirama at the same time just fine.

But I guess you also think old Hiruzen is stronger than Nagato 
or that his ability to smell is better than Nagato's ability to sense.


Speaking of which, Tobirama fought in that darkness just fine as well... 
I wonder how did he do it  maybe Hashirama was given him the location through the wireless




MaruUchiha said:


> It's like the 6 Paths no longer work when Nagato faces Hashirama is the NBD



People tend to stupidly believe that if X character is overall stronger, then EVERYTHING said character does must be out of the world
and no one can deal with ANYTHING it can pull out 


So, if Hashirama's Buddha > Onoki.
Then God forbid Onoki can deal with the regular wood attacks with his Jinton


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> He mentioned sensing because Bringer of Darkness takes away sight and Hiruzen demonstrated that you can keep fighting using other 4 senses and with chakra sensing you still have 5. So only logical question for you now is..
> 
> Can you turn left ?


heck, even affecting Nagato's sight at all is questionable.

Funny enough, he used C whose Genjutsu is an extreme light (the exact opposite of Hashi's darkness) and Sasuke's Sharingan saw through it just fine.


So, how does Hiruzen's inability to see (with his regular eyes) tells us anything about Nagato's Rinnegan not being able to see through it?

Reactions: Like 1


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Hussain said:


> heck, even affecting Nagato's sight at all is questionable.
> 
> Funny enough, he used C whose Genjutsu is an extreme light (the exact opposite of Hashi's darkness) and Sasuke's Sharingan saw through it just fine.
> 
> ...


Sharingan can't see through Bringer of darkness. That's Senju tech. Everything related to Senju> Everything related to Uchiha.


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Sharingan can't see through Bringer of darkness. That's Senju tech. Everything related to Senju> Everything related to Uchiha.


in which case, wouldn't it be convenient to Hashirama to just use it on Asspulldara and be done with it?


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Hussain said:


> in which case, wouldn't it be convenient to Hashirama to just use it on Asspulldara and be done with it?


 He most likely did.


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## LegionGod (Jul 15, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Right because the NBD which has a bad general consensus, that downplays Nagato plus Rinnegan in general, and is also ran by Founders wankers is definitely a place we can get honest results for this match


Founders>Nagato is a popular opinion in the fandom, actually. I've never seen anyone say Nagato beats them, except here.


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

LegionGod said:


> Founders>Nagato is a popular opinion in the fandom, actually. I've never seen anyone say Nagato beats them, except here.


Oh don't get me wrong. Of course that's the general consensus. Kishi hyped the Founders up so much that's gotta be the case. All I'm saying is Hashirama shouldn't be winning by THAT MUCH of a landslide. Usually when it's a close match, like this is whether you like it or not, the results show it. Hashi is only winning by that much because of reasons I named


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Can you turn left ?



Have you ever had an intelligent thought in your entire existence?


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Have you ever had an intelligent thought in your entire existence?


But can you turn left ?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> But can you turn left ?



I can. Can you?

Also, answer my question and don't run away like the coward you are - you have a bad habit of running away from arguments, it's become a trend.


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I can. Can you?
> 
> Also, answer my question and don't run away like the coward you are - you have a bad habit of running away from arguments, it's become a trend.


I don't believe you. Show me lift your left hand up.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> I don't believe you. Show me lift your left hand up.



Show me your cock first.


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Show me your cock first.


Turn to your left and it will be there


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Turn to your left and it will be there



I don't see it. It must be microscopic


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I don't see it. It must be microscopic


Because you turned to wrong side


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Because you turned to wrong side



I can't see it no matter where I look. Get me a microscope.


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I can't see it no matter where I look. Get me a microscope.


You need to turn left


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## Speedyamell (Jul 15, 2020)

How did this turn to a discussion about turning left and microscopic cock?


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## J★J♥ (Jul 15, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> How did this turn to a discussion about turning left and microscopic cock?


He can't turn left so he lashes out


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nah, he can win. Sage Mode + Bringer of Darkness + Earth Style is all he needs.


Bringer of darkness is useless against Nagato's sensory power.

SM won't help without his Mokuton.

Lmao, earth what ??


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> Bringer of darkness is useless against Nagato's sensory power.



Pretty sure Hiruzen's a sensor too and he was screwed.

Sage Mode will help without Wood Release.

Scale Hashirama's Earth Style to his Wood Style, dawg.


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Pretty sure Hiruzen's a sensor too and he was screwed.


Forget about this for a second, what's a cock fist ? And what's microscopic ?

Legit asking.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 15, 2020)

Mr Killer said:


> Forget about this for a second, what's a cock fist ? And what's microscopic ?
> 
> Legit asking.



The guy I was arguing with - turns out he was a wild imagination.



J★J♥ said:


> He can't turn left so he lashes out



Who's he?


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The guy I was arguing with - turns out he was a wild imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> Who's he?


Still don't get it...


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 15, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Right this from a weakened Nagato is shit by comparison


Yes

Yes it is

V2 Jin TBB compared to the aftermath of that exact feat

And that feat takes prep for Nagato to do, and leaves him heavily nerfed afterwards

Even if you wanna go full mental Olympian gymnast and say that a CST is Founders tiers of power (its fucking not) it requires Nagato to go ALL OUT to match even ONCE and then he CANT DO IT AGAIN FOR SEVERAL MINUTES.

Not even a tiny basic bitch ST in fact, let alone shitting out CSTs one after teh other

Whereas the Founders are casually at this level of ability

So, even if youre right here youre wrong.

1 off founders tier performance (which Nagato isnt even at, his best technique got overpowered by the damn 8 tails) doesnt equate to founders tier in general or even being a decent fight for the founders

Example in canon, Hebi Sasuke with Kirin has Susanoo tier offensive power in a ONE OFF shot AND it requires prep for him to even use (legit the exact same relationships CST has vs the founders)

Does Hebi Sasuke scale to be Itachis general equal or peer due to Kirin?

Fuck no

Same shit here


MaruUchiha said:


> What strain?


Rinnegan strain

Using CT or CST or the Gedo path or really any Rinnegan ability at its full output fucks Nagato

Read the manga


MaruUchiha said:


> I shut down the "Prime Nagato is fanfic"


Thats amazing Im proud of you for addressing a strawman argument I never made and then congratulating yourself for doing so

Cuz lord knows you cant actually address any point I do make


MaruUchiha said:


> Where are you getting this from?


Canon

Use of the Deva path at its peak level fucks Nagato in the long run and cant be done consecutively 

Even pretending he can make a CST have the juice to repel a PS slash or Mokujin fist and even pretending hes fast enough to deactivate all the other abilities or focus all of his energy into that one task with no knowledge, he cant do it twice so he fucking dies even assuming he can block one.

Which he cant.


MaruUchiha said:


> Besides, the weaker version of Nagato aka Pain's scale with Cho Shinra Tensei was already on the level of the Founders


Ive already gone over why this doesnt fucking matter


MaruUchiha said:


> Right because the NBD which has a bad general consensus, that downplays Nagato plus Rinnegan in general, and is also ran by Founders wankers is definitely a place we can get honest results for this match


Imagine thinking that the reason this poll is literally everyone telling you that youre wrong is solely due to character bias when you cant even admit Nagatos abilities have inherent shortcomings 

Imagine being that fucking conceited and hypocritical

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Sufex (Jul 15, 2020)

Im sorry but this turn left this has me screaming laughing

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 15, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Im sorry but this turn left this has me screaming laughing


Just makes me feel old as shit

Zoolander was awhile ago


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 15, 2020)

Vs




MaruUchiha said:


> the NBD which has a bad general consensus, that downplays Nagato plus Rinnegan in general, and is also ran by Founders wankers is definitely a place we can get honest results for this match


"thERes JUsT sOmEthIng WRonG WitH tHe NbD cOnsEnsuS"

Uh huh

Thats much more believable than just being wrong or a troll bud

Like...Theres legit fanf from every single character base who voted for Hashi in this poll

Youve got Masters stans, Uchiha stans, Sannin stans, Hiruzen stans, newbies, veterans...

But apparently its just bias for Hashi clouding the thread results here


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Pretty sure Hiruzen's a sensor too


he isn't.
only Tobirama & Minato are.

and possibly Hashirama when using SM.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 15, 2020)

Hussain said:


> he isn't.
> only Tobirama & Minato are.
> 
> and possibly Hashirama when using SM.


Hashis a sensor in base

Ive had to point this out to you for like 3 years now

How can you not retain this information


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## Goku Black (Jul 15, 2020)

For love's sake what's a cock fist ?!


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hashis a sensor in base
> 
> Ive had to point this out to you for like 3 years now
> 
> How can you not retain this information


he isn't, nor does he have any feats either. 

even when Oro talked about the war, only Minato & Tobirama were shown to be able to sense

and before you come with "Well, he knew about his cells in Oro" that is not a sensing feat.
Just like how Oro is not a sensor, and he knew about them as well.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 15, 2020)

Hussain said:


> he isn't


He is


Hussain said:


> nor does he have any feats either


Yes he does

*Link Removed*

In base.

He also detects Madara when Tobi doesnt in the flashback


Hussain said:


> only Minato & Tobirama were shown to be able to sense


Minato and Tobi could have better range than he does 

Or he could have just not fucking bothered because Tobi told him everything he needed to know

Or he could have also sensed it and just made no comment as Tobi was already explaining it to everyone else 

This doesnt prove hes not a sensor in base tldr


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He is


nope, sorry.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yes he does
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> In base.


dafuq is this? 
Naruto's chakra is literally visible in front of him, he didn't sense shit.
just like how Taka & Oro felt Naruto's chakra when they were in Konoha's doors, and none of them was a sensor

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*



So, Hashi perceiving the chakra is not a sensor feat nor is it anything special.

and here, Sasuke (who is not a sensor) also can realize how massive Naruto's chakra is, so what?

*Spoiler*: _2_ 



*Link Removed*





I mean it can't get more obvious that it being literally visible in front of you 


Edit:


> He also detects Madara when Tobi doesnt in the flashback


not sensing, it the normal "feels" like when you feel you are being watched for example.
hence, he asked Tobirama to use his sensing ability



> Minato and Tobi could have better range than he does
> 
> Or he could have just not fucking bothered because Tobi told him everything he needed to know
> 
> ...



it's not about range, it's him not having it at all.
never stated or shown to have sensing ability. It's as simple as that.


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## Onyx Emperor (Jul 15, 2020)

Ahahahahahahahaha


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

I will have to go now, but here is another part just in case

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




Hashirama having fought Kurama before, wont have a problem realizing his chakra as well.
Kakashi, Zabuza, Hiruzen, Hiashi...etc all of which are not sensors either realized it immediately as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jul 15, 2020)

Hussain said:


> he isn't.
> only Tobirama & Minato are.
> 
> and possibly Hashirama when using SM.



Base Hashirama and Hiruzen are both seemingly indicated to be able to sense to some degree here as well:


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2020)

last reply, it's too late 



~Kakashi~ said:


> Base Hashirama and Hiruzen are both seemingly indicated to be able to sense to some degree here as well:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Nope.

As I posted before, BM Naruto's chakra was so massive that Taka & Oro felt it on Konoha's doors.

JJ Asspulldara & Kaguya's chakra are way beyond BM Naruto's chakra. And the Hokages are even closer to where the event took place.
no reason why they wouldn't feel a ginormous chakra when it was so big that it started exploding out the earth 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*





here again, Sasuke

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




he is no sensor (his sensing is only linked to Naruto via the seal)


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## The Great One (Jul 15, 2020)

Nagato.

ST Mokujin and Mokuryu ass off.

Flies up to stratosphere outside of SS range.

Creates a CT of multi mountain range and drops it up on SS.

GG Hashirama.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AfroUchiha (Jul 15, 2020)

Edo Madara who is far stronger than Nagato in every conceivable way was only equal to Edo Hashirama.

Alive Hashirama>Edo Hashirama=Edo Madara.

How tf is Nagato winning unless you're gonna tell me Nagato is somehow as strong as the original owner of the eyes he's using?


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## BlueMeteor (Jul 16, 2020)

Hashi babyshakes


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 16, 2020)

Batzzaro and Maru 

What a fucking dream team 


The Great One said:


> Nagato.


More like nopeato 


The Great One said:


> ST Mokujin and Mokuryu ass off.


Nagato would need to use CST to hurt Mokujins durability

And use of CST requires prep, exhausts him, is a one off technique and leaves him unable to use any Deva path abilities for several minutes afterwords 

And even a CST isnt gonna do shit to Mokujin that, in base, tanked a Kurama TBB at point blank

Even if you think CST is equal to a Kurama TBB (lol) its still doing nothing to Hashirama through his constructs 

And even attempting it severely nerfs Nagato


The Great One said:


> Flies up to stratosphere


He cant do this 

He cant follow up a CST with Deva powered flight

He cant use Deva path at all after his initial attack in this strategy 

Regardless, flight gets him negged by Deity gates that could restrain the fucking Juubi


The Great One said:


> Creates a CT of multi mountain range


Which he cant do  

His CTs are blatantly too weak and dont have the feats to suggest he can pull this off


The Great One said:


> drops it up on SS.


Really wouldnt honestly 

Id hesitate to say Nagatos CT ramming into SS would even hurt it

His CT is a proven TBB level attack, a Gyuki TBB nonetheless and even WEAKER than it.

SS was able to fend off over a dozen Kurama TBBs amped by Iso blades and remained near perfectly intact aside from the arms

Even assuming Nagato can make like 9 CTs at the same time like Sasuke did (which he cant, one alone damn near kills him if hes not edo) SS is just slapping that shit away no diff with its Kurama sized hands of which it has over 1000


The Great One said:


> GG Hashirama.


In fanfic happy land maybe

Reactions: Like 2


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## sanninme rikudo (Jul 16, 2020)

Hashi trashes.


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## uchihakil (Jul 16, 2020)

Edo hashi stalemated edo madara who is stronger than Nagato, hashi mops the floor with Nagato (not gonna be a walk in the park though)

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 16, 2020)

AfroUchiha said:


> Edo Madara who is far stronger than Nagato in every conceivable way was only equal to Edo Hashirama.





uchihakil said:


> Edo hashi stalemated edo madara


No, he wasn't. Madara was just stalling Hashirama until Rinne Tensei so he can steal Sage Mode. That's the whole reason Madara was fighting Hashirama in the 1st place. He even already had Rinnegan rods all in Hashirama's back he could've used to paralyze him at any time


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## t0xeus (Jul 16, 2020)

Hashi wins with Mokujin.


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## uchihakil (Jul 16, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> No, he wasn't. Madara was just stalling Hashirama until Rinne Tensei so he can steal Sage Mode. That's the whole reason Madara was fighting Hashirama in the 1st place. He even already had Rinnegan rods all in Hashirama's back he could've used to paralyze him at any time



Madara had myoujin mun seals restraining him and wood dragon, you have no proof whatsoever to disprove this fact.


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## Itachi san88 (Jul 16, 2020)

One of the most one-sided polls i've seen so far here


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## Stonaem (Jul 16, 2020)

ST + Five Seal Trap Barrier + Sudden Mirrored Attacker Technique turns this into SM Hashirama vs SM Hashirama×5

Nagato just sits back and enjoys the show.

Assuming that's restricted:
Is Hashi too resistant for chakra rods in SM? 

I think not, based on Madara tagging him with them. So Nagato FCDs the hell out of him and uses an opening to Chakra Rod GG

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 16, 2020)

Nagato is starting to become one of the most overrated pieces of shit I have ever fucking seen

OT: Hashi shitdiffs.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 16, 2020)

King789 said:


> Nagato is starting to become one of the most overrated pieces of shit I have ever fucking seen
> 
> OT: Hashi shitdiffs.



At least no one has tried to argue he > Goku or Galactus...


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## Soldierofficial (Jul 16, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> a full power Rinnegan user


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## Perfect Susano (Jul 16, 2020)

I can see Nagato giving Base Hashirama a good match and decisively lose when the Mokujin comes out. He can't contest SM Hashirama though. The Mokujin is stated to be equal to 100% Kurama & 50% KN8 broke out of CT. Quite a large gap to cover for Nagato even if he could make one that's bigger than Pain's. Edo Madara possesses all of Nagato's powers yet Perfect Susano'o is still his greatest power. Simply looking at the AOE of CST and concluding that Nagato>founders is inaccurate. Katsuyu's clones provided adequate defense from CST. It definitely isn't incapacitating something like 50% Kurama for example let alone the Mokujin. Preta Path isn't even useful against the majority of Hashirama's arsenal. Madara's Preta Path wasn't a factor against the Mokujin and was countered by lower scale Wood Dragons than the one used against Kurama.

Base Hashirama wins with mid diff and SM Hashirama wins with low diff.


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## JayK (Jul 16, 2020)




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## MaruUchiha (Jul 16, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


>


Obviously I don't mean on the level of Limbo Madara smatass.. I mean full power in the sense this isn't Pain, cripple Nagato, or Edo Nagato



Perfect Susano said:


> Preta Path isn't even useful against the majority of Hashirama's arsenal.


When it completely negs Wood Style?



Perfect Susano said:


> Madara's Preta Path wasn't a factor against the Mokujin


Edo Madara doesn't use Deva Path or Asura Path like Nagato. Both would easily obliterate Wood Dragon. Edo Madara wasn't serious against Hashirama either. He said himself he was stalling for Rinne Tensei and to steal Hashirama's Sage Mode


Perfect Susano said:


> and was countered by lower scale Wood Dragons than the one used against Kurama.


Huh? It was the same scale Wood Dragon


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## Mawt (Jul 16, 2020)

Maru, just admit that Nagato gets pasted. 

If it makes you feel any better, Rinnegan Obito can at least push Hashi to mid-high diff. 

And Juubito stomps.


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 16, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Maru, just admit that Nagato gets pasted.


Just admit Preta Path negs Wood Style


Mawt said:


> If it makes you feel any better, Rinnegan Obito can at least push Hashi to mid-high diff.


And so can Nagato. That's my only issue here. Users acting like this isn't high diff either way


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## Mawt (Jul 16, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Just admit Preta Path negs Wood Style


 



MaruUchiha said:


> And so can Nagato.




Sitting ovation diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 16, 2020)

Mawt said:


>


What's your point with this? Wood Dragon is another chakra absorption ability, that Hashirama makes clear counters Preta Path. If anything this scan proves me right, and Hashirama needed to find a way to counter Preta Path since it negs his Wood Style normally



Mawt said:


> Sitting ovation diff


Even you're a Founders wanker


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## Charmed (Jul 16, 2020)

hmm I dunno, this match makes me dizzy.
In one hand, we have the author telling us that Hashirama an Mads (When they were alive) they were more or less equal in power (prolly Hashi was a little stronger, thus Madara needed Kyubi's aid for the final battle).
Then, in War arc, we have Edo Madara, who's literally Madara + 2 Rinnegan + Hashirama; yet Edo Madara and Edo Hashi were kinda equal (?)... unless Edo Madara wasn't being serious at all; all this regarding their overall power.
Talking about speed, neither Madara nor Hashirama were know for their speed nor their superb sensing skills, but shinobi like Tobirama, and later, Minato, were. Does this mean Hashi and Mads are slower than those 2 (ofc slower doesn't mean weaker)? If they are indeed alittle bit slower, then a cripple puppet version of Nagato lolblitzing Bee an KCM Naruto must mean that Nagato's speed is relevant against Hashi or Mads.

In theory, Nagato's versatility thanks to the Rinnegan, and his Uzumaki blood plus his sensing skills seem more overwhelming than anything Hashirama has (wood only)... Hashirama 's supposed to be a God of Shinobi, but a Rinnegan wielder becomes kinda like some sort of real God. Pretty much Nagato's strongest jutsu such as CST and CT are far more destructive than anything Hashi can do. Not to mention his other ablitites such as chakra absorption, soul dragon, ashura armor, GM with most biju, the outer path, the power of life and death, etc. are far more difficult to deal with than Hashi's straight forward skillset; also Nagato can spam said techniques and he can also levitate.

Nagato's sensing skills will give him the upper hand and the fact he can counter most if not all of Hashi's jutsu will grant him the victory.
I don't think it's gonna be easy, but for me, a rinnegan user is still above all other ninja.


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## Mawt (Jul 16, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> What's your point with this? Wood Dragon is another chakra absorption ability, that Hashirama makes clear counters Preta Path. If anything this scan proves me right, and Hashirama needed to find a way to counter Preta Path since it negs his Wood Style normally


How does Preta Path counter his Mokuton if he on panel countered Preta with his Mokuton? 



MaruUchiha said:


> Even you're a Founders wanker


Nah, you're just an outlier.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ZmkSc (Jul 16, 2020)

Mawt said:


> How does Preta Path counter his Mokuton if he on panel countered Preta with his Mokuton?
> 
> 
> Nah, you're just an outlier.


Hashirama needed to use wooden dragon with the special chakra absorption properties in order to be able to restrain Madara. That proves that regular mouktun wouldn't have worked because of Preta.


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## Mawt (Jul 16, 2020)

Charmed said:


> than a cipple puppet version of Nagato lolblitzing Bee an KCM Naruto must mean that Nagato's speed is relevant against Hashir or Mads.


He didn't blitz either of them, nor were either of them using Shunshin. He worked around their speed via invisibility and Shinra Tensei.



Charmed said:


> Pretty much Nagato's strongest jutsu such as CST and CT are far more destructive than anything Hashi can do.


His CST's is rivaled by PS swinging its sword. 

His CT was broken by 50% KN8 on panel. Mokujin = 100% Kurama according to DB4. SS is even stronger.

Nagato's power isn't beyond Hashirama's. It's actually *below *it, although they're in the same weight class. The difference is that Hashirama can spam his powers, whereas Nagato literally shortens his life by doing so.

If we take chakra as an accurate gauge of power, Hashirama is also beyond Nagato. He could overpower Orochimaru's control over him and he rivaled BM Naruto in terms of chakra reserves. He's well above Nagato.


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## Mawt (Jul 16, 2020)

ZmkSc said:


> Hashirama needed to use wooden dragon with the special chakra absorption properties in order to be able to restrain Madara. That proves that regular mouktun wouldn't have worked because of Preta.


Okay, I'm not denying that. But the fact that his Wood Dragon countered Preta is a bad thing for Nagato.


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 16, 2020)

Mawt said:


> How does Preta Path counter his Mokuton if he on panel countered Preta with his Mokuton?


Hashirama just explained that to you



Mawt said:


> Nah, you're just an outlier.


Right, an outlier to Founders wankers that think Hashirama can ever low diff a dual Rinnegan user


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## LegionGod (Jul 16, 2020)

> I don't think it's gonna be easy, but for me, a rinnegan user is still above all other ninja.


By this logic Nagato is also above to BSM Naruto, BM Minato or 8 gates Guy.



> also Nagato can spam said techniques


He can't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Jul 16, 2020)

ZmkSc said:


> Hashirama needed to use wooden dragon with the special chakra absorption properties in order to be able to restrain Madara. That proves that regular mouktun wouldn't have worked because of Preta.



Does Hashirama not have Wood Dragon in this scenario? As long as he still can use it, he can use mokuton to counter Preta.


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## Mawt (Jul 16, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Hashirama just explained that to you


Hashirama just explained to you that his Wood Dragon countered Madara's Preta Path, Maru. 



MaruUchiha said:


> Right, an outlier to Founders wankers that think Hashirama can ever low diff a dual Rinnegan user


This is such a simplistic way of looking at it. It's the equivalent of saying Kekkei Touta > Kekkei Genkai, therefore Hashirama and Madara can't low diff Ohnoki or Muu. But look at what happened in canon. 

Having a strong power is one thing. Being able to use it at its max is another thing. Being so strong that you can make a mediocre power turn into a Godly power is another thing. The manga constantly shits down our throats that the Rinnegan's true power can only be used by its original wielder. The manga constantly shits down our throats that Nagato shortens his lifespan using the Rinnegan. The manga constantly shits down our throats that Madara and Hashirama are in a league of their own. The manga literally shows us Hashirama defeating Madara as an Edo Tensei, a *Rinnegan *user with *EMS *powers and *Mokuton *as well.

Sorry Maru, but Hashirama low diffs Nagato. I don't believe I have any bias for the Founders. If there's a single character who I'm honestly biased for, it would probably be Kisame. I'm not even biased towards Itachi (at least I don't think I am). You gotta learn to accept that some people simply have different opinions. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a Founders wanker.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ZmkSc (Jul 16, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Okay, I'm not denying that. But the fact that his Wood Dragon countered Preta is a bad thing for Nagato.


On a second thought, Hashirama was probably referring to Madara's ability to absorb naruto's Rasen shruiken not Mouktun.


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## Charmed (Jul 16, 2020)

Mawt said:


> He didn't blitz either of them, nor were either of them using Shunshin. He worked around their speed via invisibility and Shinra Tensei.


Not even Naruto's sensing helped him to at least react to Nagato's speed. Both Bee and Naruto were about to get killed if not by Itachi saving them. This is a cripple puppet version of Nagato we're talking about.




Mawt said:


> His CST's is rivaled by PS swinging its sword.


If both meet, then obviously the sword is getting deflected back at it's user. I dunno if the sword would be enough to pierce Susano or injure it's caster, tho.



Mawt said:


> The difference is that Hashirama can spam his powers,


Nagato too.



Mawt said:


> Nagato literally shortens his life by doing so


Yeah, and he still lived 35 years or so.
It's not like Hashirama died when he was 100 years old.
Besides, it's not like Nagato needs to fight Hashirama for years. Thanks to soul rip an deflect, this match can end way earlier.



Mawt said:


> If we take chakra as an accurate gauge of power, Hashirama is also beyond Nagato.


why? Nagato literally fought Kurama's Jinchuuriki while crippled and, after destroying the village Hashirama had built a century ago... he also, casually defeated the actual Hokage and the future Hokage amongst other thousands of ninja, afterwards, he still had enough chakra to create 2 moons (much bigger than anything Hashi has done on panel) and revive the entire village in seconds...
I repeat, this was cripple nagato... the guy did all this just with his mind, literally, w/o even moving an inch.
Months later, he was revived, once he gained control of his legs, a little, his speed was still relevant against KCM Naruto and Bee.
If anything, Nagato should be much stronger and in paper, he seems to be a much biger threat than Hashi himself, considering the plot is all about the rinnegan and getting your hands on the eyes of a God to become a real God.



Mawt said:


> He could overpower Orochimaru's control over him and he rivaled BM Naruto in terms of chakra reserves. He's well above Nagato.


Maybe cuz Nagato had a weakened body. But this is a Healthy Nagato we're talking about.
Perhaps an old and cripple Hashirama, wouldn't be strong enough to resist Oro's Edo Tensei.
Who knows.


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## Mawt (Jul 16, 2020)

Charmed said:


> Not even Naruto's sensing helped him to at least react to Nagato's speed. Both Bee and Naruto were about to get killed if not by Itachi saving them. This is a cripple puppet version of Nagato we're talking about.


Which was thanks to his ST and chameleon, not his speed.



Charmed said:


> If both meet, then obviously the sword is getting deflected back at it's user. I dunno if the sword would be enough to pierce Susano or injure it's caster, tho.


No, the sword has shown power on the level of CST. They would counteract at worst.



Charmed said:


> Nagato too.


Not at all. He shortened his life using CST and was on cool down for minutes. Even his ordinary ST isn't spammable lol.



Charmed said:


> Yeah, and he still lived 35 years or so.
> It's not like Hashirama died when he was 100 years old.
> Besides, it's not like Nagato needs to fight Hashirama for years. Thanks to soul rip an deflect, this match can end way earlier.


You missed the point. Nagato shortening his life after using CST shows that CST is clearly not casual usage for him, let alone spammable. Hashirama, on the other hand, can consistently fight at a high level with his Mokuton.



Charmed said:


> after destroying the village Hashirama had built a century ago...


By shortening his life..



Charmed said:


> he still had enough chakra to create 2 moons


He created one, and his "moon"  actually *collapsed *because he was so exhausted that he couldn't even maintain it.  If he couldn't maintain his first one, there's no way he could create another one. 

It baffles me that people take his statement seriously. If I were to claim that I could outrun you and then I sprain my ankle, would you still take my statement seriously?



Charmed said:


> (much bigger than anything Hashi has done on panel)


Not at all true. 

Everything else you mentioned for Nagato's chakra feats are, quite frankly, irrelevant. He himself states that Kisame has the most chakra in the Akatsuki. Hashirama is stated to have roughly as much chakra as BM Naruto, and I don't think I have to remind you of the feats that BM Naruto has performed.



Charmed said:


> Maybe cuz Nagato had a weakened body. But this is a Healthy Nagato we're talking about.
> Perhaps an old and cripple Hashirama, wouldn't be strong enough to resist Oro's Edo Tensei.
> Who knows.


Nagato was rejuvenated after he absorbed Hachibi's chakra. He still couldn't break free of the ET control.

Hashirama's feat of breaking free of the ET control was meant to indicate he was so strong that he could literally upset the power balance between user and minion. With Nagato, you don't see anything like that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jul 16, 2020)

ZmkSc said:


> On a second thought, Hashirama was probably referring to Madara's ability to absorb naruto's Rasen shruiken not Mouktun.


pretty sure Hashi's statement was before Naruto used his FRS.


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## Charmed (Jul 16, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Which was thanks to his ST and chameleon, not his speed.


they both couldn't react to him. Period.



Mawt said:


> No, the sword has shown power on the level of CST. They would counteract at worst.


No... The sword's meant to cut things. You can't cut CST. CST is meant to repel matter. The sword gets repeled by ST, he doesn't even need CST.



Mawt said:


> Not at all. He shortened his life using CST and was on cool down for minutes. Even his ordinary ST isn't spammable lol.


wrong. That was cripple Nagato. Not a hypothetical 100% Nagato. I wouldn't be so sure that ST isn't spammable for alive Nagato anymore. He literally used ST to nullify amaterasu and a panel afterwards he used another ST to repel Naruto, Itachi and Bee.


Mawt said:


> You missed the point. Nagato shortening his life after using CST shows that CST is clearly not casual usage for him, let alone spammable. Hashirama, on the other hand, can consistently fight at a high level with his Mokuton.


like I said, he doesn't even need CST and we don't know if Nagato has the same time lag than 6PoP. Naruto clerly stated Nagato coulduse the Rinnegan's abilities much faste than Pain, and then, there's the panels in which he used 2 successive ST...


Mawt said:


> By shortening his life..


well he's been impaled for decades... what else could you expect?



Mawt said:


> He created one, and his "moon"  actually *collapsed *because he was so exhausted that he couldn't even maintain it.  If he couldn't maintain his first one, there's no way he could create another one.


nope, it's more like Naruto got out of there thanks to Minato giving him the courage to do so (kinda weird how Minato knew a lot of things about the akatsuki, altho, when he was alive, akatsuki haven't been created yet...)


Mawt said:


> It baffles me that people take his statement seriously. If I were to injure my ankle and then claim that I could outrun you, would you believe me?


and yet, he still had enough power to bring back evryone to life. Can you see Hashirama doing this? Cuz I don't.



Mawt said:


> Not at all true.


Uh-huh, still not bigger than CT. You think Hashirama can create 2 SS?



Mawt said:


> He himself states that Kisame has the most chakra in the Akatsuki.


Uh-huh, and then episodes later, we see him doing so many things in a couple hours than what Kisame did in the entire series. Not to mention Kisame got tired after sealing Shukaku for 3 days... cripple Nagato didn't complain, iirc altho he mantained the GM summon and gathered the akatsuki for those same 3 days w/o sleeping nor eating, etc.. No problem.
Cipple Nagato is still leagues above Kisame, chakra and stamina wise.


Mawt said:


> Nagato was rejuvenated after he absorbed Hachibi's chakra. He still couldn't break free of the ET control.


He still couldn't move freely, tho. It's been decades since he last used his legs.



Mawt said:


> With Nagato, you don't see anything like that


Uh-huh, cuz he was Edo-Tensei'd as his cripple version, not his healthy version.


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## Charmed (Jul 16, 2020)

LegionGod said:


> By this logic Nagato is also above to BSM Naruto,


ofc, Naruto being the exception to the rule as always. He's literally Sasuke's equal, tho.


LegionGod said:


> BM Minato


Preta path drains his kurama avatar in seconds. ST deflects TBB or Preta absorbs it before it explodes.


LegionGod said:


> 8 gates Guy


ST GG. Gai breaks all his bones and he's done for, or, fly as high as he can and wait till Gai dies, it'll only take a minute.


LegionGod said:


> He can't.


He can't what?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ZmkSc (Jul 17, 2020)

Hussain said:


> pretty sure Hashi's statement was before Naruto used his FRS.


It was made exactly as RS was on its way to madara


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 17, 2020)

King789 said:


> I mean I can even see the dude losing to people on his tier such as *Edo Itachi,Sage Mode Kabuto* and Tobirama


See you're just downplaying Nagato.. You're arguing Rinnegan will lose to MS and someone that pissed themself at the thought of fighting Rinnegan

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 17, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> See you're just downplaying Nagato.. You're arguing Rinnegan will lose to MS and someone that pissed themself at the thought of fighting Rinnegan


No Rinnegan>>MS.
Nagato is just a crappy user


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## Mawt (Jul 17, 2020)

Charmed said:


> they both couldn't react to him. Period.


Yes, thanks to him pushing them away and using an *invisible *summon. You repeating yourself doesn't take away from the fact that Nagato didn't blitz or react to either of them at full speed. He circumvented their speed using his abilities.



Charmed said:


> No... The sword's meant to cut things. You can't cut CST. CST is meant to repel matter. The sword gets repeled by ST, he doesn't even need CST.


You're pretending that CST can't be overpowered or canceled out, despite ST being countered on panel in a similar manner.  If you wanna roll with an NLF, then that's fine. The manga disagrees with you though.



Charmed said:


> wrong. That was cripple Nagato. Not a hypothetical 100% Nagato. I wouldn't be so sure that ST isn't spammable for alive Nagato anymore.


How exactly do you think he became emaciated in the first place? How'd he go from this  to this? 

What we know from the soul dragon is that it drains Nagato's life force.  What we know about ST is that it has a 5 second cool down. What we know from CST is that it shortens Nagato's life and that he's used the jutsu multiple times according to him and Konan's conversation,  What we know from CT is that it requires Deva Path to move close to Nagato,  indicating that it requires a lot of chakra. What we know from CT is that it requires Nagato a lot of effort to use,  so much to the point where he starts bleeding from the nose.  We know that CT is so strenuous that Nagato can't even maintain it for long. 

Putting two and two together, it's obvious that Nagato became emaciated in the first place because he overused his Rinnegan. Nagato being able to spam his strongest jutsu is an absolutely silly notion. 



Charmed said:


> He literally used ST to nullify amaterasu and a panel afterwards he used another ST to repel Naruto, Itachi and Bee.


Yes, after he regenerated and summoned a chameleon, lol.

Your argument is literally "Nagato used ST after an unspecified time period, therefore ST is spammable despite literally nothing supporting it and everything in the manga telling us that ST has a cool down period."



Charmed said:


> like I said, he doesn't even need CST


Yes he does. He needs CST and CT if he wants to have any chance at all against Hashirama.



Charmed said:


> Naruto clerly stated Nagato coulduse the Rinnegan's abilities much faste than Pain


He said his powers and moves are out of this world. That doesn't translate to "His ST cool down is now nonexistent and his strongest attacks are spammable."



Charmed said:


> well he's been impaled for decades... what else could you expect?


Shortening his life is owed to him using CST. Not sure what you're trying to argue here.



Charmed said:


> nope, it's more like Naruto got out of there thanks to Minato giving him the courage to do so (kinda weird how Minato knew a lot of things about the akatsuki, altho, when he was alive, akatsuki haven't been created yet...)


Naruto got out, and then the CT collapsed because Nagato didn't have the chakra to maintain it. I posted the scans.

Minato knew about Pain because he was inside Naruto's psyche IIRC.



Charmed said:


> and yet, he still had enough power to bring back evryone to life. Can you see Hashirama doing this? Cuz I don't.


Yes, by giving away his life. 

Deidara could use a C0 when he was out of chakra. Suicide techniques in Naruto are precisely that: *suicide *techniques. They work by giving away your life for extra power.



Charmed said:


> Uh-huh, still not bigger than CT. You think Hashirama can create 2 SS?


That explosion is certainly CT tier in power, and the explosion isn't even necessary to break out of CT. Mokujin is more than enough based off of scaling.

Hashirama can't create 2 SSs, but Nagato can't create 2 CTs either by feats. 

On the other hand, Hashirama can create at least 3 Mokujins, which are strong enough to bust CT by scaling.



Charmed said:


> Uh-huh, and then episodes later, we see him doing so many things in a couple hours than what Kisame did in the entire series. Not to mention Kisame got tired after sealing Shukaku for 3 days... cripple Nagato didn't complain, iirc altho he mantained the GM summon and gathered the akatsuki for those same 3 days w/o sleeping nor eating, etc.. No problem.
> Cipple Nagato is still leagues above Kisame, chakra and stamina wise.


Nagato states Kisame has the most chakra out of the Akatsuki. No reason to doubt his statement. At worst, the two are comparable. Either way, Hashirama ~ BM Naruto >>> Kisame/Nagato.

Nagato did more things than Kisame did because he was a *Rinnegan *user. I also don't remember Kisame ever getting tired during the Akatsuki rituals, but if you got a scan or reference, that'd be appreciated.



Charmed said:


> He still couldn't move freely, tho. It's been decades since he last used his legs.


His legs aren't needed to bust out of ET control. He needs power/chakra. Even after absorbing Hacihbi's chakra, he still couldn't bust out of ET control. That's a clear sign that Hashirama's stronger than him/has more chakra than him.

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## Mawt (Jul 17, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> See you're just downplaying Nagato.. You're arguing Rinnegan will lose to MS and someone that pissed themself at the thought of fighting Rinnegan


You must also be an Ohnoki downplayer for constantly calling him overrated, despite him having a Kekkei Touta which are stated to be stronger than Kekkei Genkai. Therefore, Jinton > Mokuton, right Maru? You see how this line of thinking absolutely flops when you put it under a little bit of scrutiny?

Ignoring my points doesn't make them any less prevalent, Maru. 

Ohnoki > Hashirama or at the very least he's close to his level according to your logic.

EDIT: I do agree Nagato flattens ET Itachi and Kabuto tho. I just disagree with your reasoning.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 17, 2020)

Danisor said:


> Nagato has no answer for Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands.Restrict Sage Mode, Nagato's gets ripped apart.



Preta Path, Shinra Tensei, CT... 3 jutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 17, 2020)

King789 said:


> Nagato is not a full power Rinnegan user
> No Nagato is overrated cause you'll think he is even remotely on the same class as Hashi
> I mean I can even see the dude losing to people on his tier such as Edo Itachi,Sage Mode Kabuto and Tobirama



Do you have any real reason for why Hashirama can take the Rinnegan? I'm sure you don't have any argument apart from Hussain style emojis and "Hashirama".

Nagato just needs a Rinnegan that isn't dampened by Edo Tensei to beat Hashirama. Though, there's a chance Madara simply didn't use all 6 Paths seeing as he didn't seem to use Mokuton. 

Nagato's defo underrated if you think he can lose to Edo Itachi, SM Kabuto and Tobirama. Which is strange as Madara used 2 Rinnegan powers to shut down Hashirama.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 17, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Preta Path, Shinra Tensei, CT... 3 jutsu.



CT got folded by Hachibi, dawg. SM Hashirama who > 100% Kurama wrecks that shit.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> CT got folded by Hachibi, dawg. SM Hashirama who > 100% Kurama wrecks that shit.



Silly arguments. Hashirama got fodderised by 2 Rinnegan jutsu, still. The argument seems like a lazy attempt to dodge the fact Hashirama can't get past CT, Preta and ST.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 17, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Silly arguments. Hashirama got fodderised by 2 Rinnegan jutsu, still. The argument seems like a lazy attempt to dodge the fact Hashirama can't get past CT, Preta and ST.



I literally just pointed out how Hashirama could beat Celestial Destroyer (y'know, Pain's STRONGEST technique) and you elected to ignore it. Not cool, dawg. If he can counter that, he's not gonna have to worry about countering the weaker Ultimate Push. I mean, SM Naruto already tanked that shit and SM Hashirama is_ at least as durable _while also having his Strength of a Hundred-esque regeneration technique on top of that. Preta Path canonically gets countered by Wood Dragon.

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## LegionGod (Jul 17, 2020)

> Preta path drains his kurama avatar in seconds. ST deflects TBB or Preta absorbs it before it explodes.





> ST GG. Gai breaks all his bones and he's done for, or, fly as high as he can and wait till Gai dies, it'll only take a minute.





> Nagato just needs a Rinnegan that isn't dampened by Edo Tensei to beat Hashirama.



 I had no idea Nagato was so wanked here. And the comparison with Madara...

Reactions: Like 3


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Do you have any real reason for why Hashirama can take the Rinnegan? I'm sure you don't have any argument apart from Hussain style emojis and "Hashirama".
> Yes I do.
> Nagato just needs a Rinnegan that isn't dampened by Edo Tensei to beat Hashirama. Though, there's a chance Madara simply didn't use all 6 Paths seeing as he didn't seem to use Mokuton.
> Okay but Madara/=/Nagato so stop comparing them.
> Nagato's defo underrated if you think he can lose to Edo Itachi, SM Kabuto and Tobirama. Which is strange as Madara used 2 Rinnegan powers to shut down Hashirama.


No he can legit be beaten by people on his tier like the guys I mentioned above.
Also what Madara does with the Rinnegan does not translate to Nagato.


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## blk (Jul 18, 2020)

The Nagato wank is pretty intense here 

Hashirama legitimately doesn't even need Wood Human to win this, stuff like Jokai Kotan and Flower World (or other generic large scale Mokuton spam) would overwhelm Nagato low diff.

A casual Jokai Kotan required dozens of Cho Odama Rasengans to be stopped, that's already a stronger attack than anything Nagato has except CST (which he can use once).

Stuff like Flower World that is way more massive, is still casual level for Hashi.
That would 100% require CST to be stopped (it's probably bigger than Konoha too).

After that Nagato is defenseless and any other Mokuton Jutsu one shots him. 

Hashi low diffs without SM and even without any of his wood constructs really.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I literally just pointed out how Hashirama could beat Celestial Destroyer (y'know, Pain's STRONGEST technique) and you elected to ignore it. Not cool, dawg. If he can counter that, he's not gonna have to worry about countering the weaker Ultimate Push. I mean, SM Naruto already tanked that shit and SM Hashirama is_ at least as durable _while also having his Strength of a Hundred-esque regeneration technique on top of that. Preta Path canonically gets countered by Wood Dragon.



Are you making the common mistake of capping Nagato's capabilities to Pain's? 
Preta Path can get countered if it is done under a precise situation, that is Nagato doesn't use other powers like Madara was. Also ITT, Edo Tensei isn't weakening the Rinnegan, so Outer Path stakes stabbing Hashirama would end this battle. 



King789 said:


> No he can legit be beaten by people on his tier like the guys I mentioned above.
> Also what Madara does with the Rinnegan does not translate to Nagato.



Except you can make a strong case for Nagato beating them. The high scale stuff which Madara can do like sealing multiple Bijuu at once and Gedo Chains, of course not. Things like Preta and Outer Path stakes, you can.



blk said:


> The Nagato wank is pretty intense here
> 
> Hashirama legitimately doesn't even need Wood Human to win this, stuff like Jokai Kotan and Flower World (or other generic large scale Mokuton spam) would overwhelm Nagato low diff.
> 
> ...



Mokuton's trolled by Preta. There's a reason Hashirama used a jutsu not made of chakra to bind Madara at the end. Nagato needs to land Outer Path stakes to immobile Hashirama and that's achievable as Madara showed. Madara didn't even need to use Demon Path, summon assistance or any mastery of Ninjutsu to achieve this too.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you making the common mistake of capping Nagato's capabilities to Pain's?
> Preta Path can get countered if it is done under a precise situation, that is Nagato doesn't use other powers like Madara was. Also ITT, Edo Tensei isn't weakening the Rinnegan, so Outer Path stakes stabbing Hashirama would end this battle.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> Yeah and you can make a strong case for them beating him too.



You can't. If your arguments are anything like your Hashirama arguments, then the cases are anything but strong. 



> No you can't cause he is not Madara unless you show us feats that suggests he can.



Desperate on your part. Nagato has shown he can use the Outer Path and Preta Path and these are explicitly stated to be Rinnegan Paths. Again, if this is your argument then like the EMS Madara side, it seems both founders' fans have no counterargument to the Rinnegan's power.


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## Kai (Jul 18, 2020)

Nagato can't even beat 100% Kurama by himself; He has no business fighting either of the Founders at full power.


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## Itachi san88 (Jul 18, 2020)

Kai said:


> Nagato can't even beat 100% Kurama by himself; He has no business fighting either of the Founders at full power.


Nah, Nagato's Preta Path/Shinra Tensei are Kaguya Tier here, it seems.

I can't believe this thread is still open


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You can't. If your arguments are anything like your Hashirama arguments, then the cases are anything but strong.
> 
> I genuinely can but what's the point tbh?
> All you will do is call me a wanker or sum ish.
> ...


No not desperate I am saying that you cannot translate what Madara does with the Rinnegan to what Nagato does with the Rinnegan?
But since you'll like clinging to portrayal I will bite and play along.
Did Madara not say that PS is the most powerful weapon in his arsenal even though he had the Rinnegan at the time?
Did Sage Mode Kabuto not state that Madara and Hashi are his most powerful reincarnations?
Did Madara not shitdiff his own meteors in PS and Hashi,s Wood Dragons are comparable physically?
Were those meteors even when weighted down by Onoki stated to be heavier than islands going by Onoki's own admissions?
So even going by portrayal and not feats Hashi is above.
I did not even touch Thousand Hands just yet or his regen.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Itachi san88 said:


> Nah, Nagato's Preta Path/Shinra Tensei are Kaguya Tier here, it seems.
> 
> I can't believe this thread is still open


Yeah Nagato is low God tier


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

Kai said:


> Nagato can't even beat 100% Kurama by himself; He has no business fighting either of the Founders at full power.



Fighting 100% Kurama has _*nothing *_to do with the fact the founders cannot defeat the Rinnegan's powers. That's simply a lazy argument used by posters to try to skirt around the fact that they cannot make legit counterarguments.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> No not desperate I am saying that you cannot translate what Madara does with the Rinnegan to what Nagato does with the Rinnegan?
> But since you'll like clinging to portrayal I will bite and play along.
> Did Madara not say that PS is the most powerful weapon in his arsenal even though he had the Rinnegan at the time?
> Did Sage Mode Kabuto not state that Madara and Hashi are his most powerful reincarnations?
> ...



Already addressed. 

A lot of what you post involved poor reading and poor interpretation. 

1. That's a Rinnegan (albeit weakened Rinnegan) enhanced PS. Remember, Edo Madara was _better _than EMS Madara due to having the Rinnegan. 

2. The Rinnegan canonically nulled Ninjutsu, including Mokuton; the databook stated Asura nulled CQC and that Deva always catches the foe off-guard. 

3. Madara was Kabuto's most powerful Edo _because _he was better than his prime... for having the Rinnegan. 

4. The meteorites still cleared most of the battlefield. 

5. When Madara was revived and the Rinnegan powers were unweakened, he was immediately able to bind Hashirama with the Outer Path stakes. 

Its like the founders side ITT don't read the manga.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Already addressed.
> 
> A lot of what you post involved poor reading and poor interpretation.
> Sure buddy.
> ...


It's almost like the Nagato side does not understand that Nagato is not Madara and that anything he accomplishes with the Rinnegan does not automatically translate to Nagato


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> It's almost like the Nagato side does not understand that Nagato is not Madara and that anything he accomplishes with the Rinnegan does not automatically translate to Nagato




Its almost like you have you actual argument except rehashing arguments already addressed.


You really don't have an argument, do you?


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its almost like you have you actual argument except rehashing arguments already addressed.


Sure buddy whatever floats your boat


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> Sure buddy whatever floats your boat



Its clear as day. You either can't read or have no argument. Actually, either point would explain your stance.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its clear as day. You either can't read or have no argument. Actually, either point would explain your stance.


No I presented my arguement but you keep regurgitating the same shit over and over again but considering what you just said above I am genuinely not surprised


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

Reminds of when y'all were arguing that only the 5 basic elements could be absorbed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> No I presented my arguement but you keep regurgitating the same shit over and over again but considering what you just said above I am genuinely not surprised



What argument? All you demonstrated was you can't read.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Reminds of when y'all were arguing that only the 5 basic elements could be absorbed.


I never said that


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What argument? All you demonstrated was you can't read.


Hmm okay?
You know what let's start again it seems we are both not getting our points across.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> I never said that



I'm citing the stupid arguments people used to use against the Rinnegan. They're almost as stupid as the ones people use to suggest the founders can actually beat the Rinnegan.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> Hmm okay?
> You know what let's start again it seems we are both not getting our points across.



Sure. 

Preta Path will negate Mokuton, and we know Nagato will be using other abilities (Asura, Deva, Preta, Gedo etc) alongside his Ninjutsu. Hashirama can't rely on Mokuton spam without just giving Nagato extra chakra. If he gets stabbed, he gets controlled. 

BT, all the strong ones (anything stronger than the basic one used on Kakashi), would require jutsu which require no focus to use like Naruto's chakra arms. That won't work as Hashirama's jutsu like that (Mokuton) are absorbent. 

Its the Rinnegan, its too strong. And that's from a user who can't make use of its full powers. That's why we had at least 4 characters (Madara, Oro, Kabuto and Obito) try to seek its power.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sure.
> Okay let's go.
> Preta Path will negate Mokuton, and we know Nagato will be using other abilities (Asura, Deva, Preta, Gedo etc) alongside his Ninjutsu. Hashirama can't rely on Mokuton spam without just giving Nagato extra chakra. If he gets stabbed, he gets controlled.
> I respect you for not saying CT Gg
> ...


I understand the Rinnegan is a haxed dojutsu but you are underselling the creativity of Hashi,s arsenal if he applies it correctly.
Also as a side note Edo Rinnegan Madara admitted he had an advantage over Hashi due to Edo weakening him so that alone tells me he still considers Hashi his peer and you yourself have agreed and conceded to Madara being way above Nagato.
Also there is something I forgot to Mention?
Hashirama can overload the abilities of Preta Path using Senjutsu energy and he would probably turn into a frog.
Or is that only exclusive to Toad Sage Mode?
Just a fruit for thought.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> I understand the Rinnegan is a haxed dojutsu but you are underselling the creativity of Hashi,s arsenal if he applies it correctly.
> Also as a side note Edo Rinnegan Madara admitted he had an advantage over Hashi due to Edo weakening him so that alone tells me he still considers Hashi his peer and you yourself have agreed and conceded to Madara being way above Nagato.
> Also there is something I forgot to Mention?
> Hashirama can overload the abilities of Preta Path using Senjutsu energy and he would probably turn into a frog.
> ...




I understand the creativity of Hashirama's arsenal. But, like many characters, it primarily relies on Ninjutsu which is the problem. It is ripe for Preta to counter. 

I also believe Madara didn't use most of his abilities against Edo Hashirama. Apart from the EMS, he simply used the Outer Path stakes and towards the end, Preta. Not even Mokuton, hence Hashirama's surprise when he saw the Hashiboob. 

The Senjutsu thing is a myth. Nagato has absorbed large volumes of Senjutsu chakra before. The only time that the overwhelm factor would come into play is if Nagato decided to absorb Hashirama's chakra _while _he was entering Sage Mode.

Preta didn't turn into stone when he absorbed SM: *Link Removed*

Preta turned into stone when be absorbed Naruto's chakra *while he entered Sage Mode*: 
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*

That's why Naruto referenced not being able to move and mentioned nature energy was hard to control. 

Madara recreated the same conditions.

First, Hashirama not being able to move: *Link Removed*
Second, absorbing then referencing how easy it was to control: *Link Removed*

*In short: *unless Hashirama sits down to enter Sage Mode and Nagato decides to absorb his chakra instead of killing him, _then _absorption will backfire. Otherwise, it won't.


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## Danyboy (Jul 18, 2020)

Lol Nagato maybe and its big maybe, can beat base Hashirama, but w sm Hashi low diffs him. Non full edo Hashirama stalemated w edo Madara who is superiour to Nagato in every field, including rinnegan. Lol i mean Nagatos strongest Jutsu was destroyed by 50% 8 tailed mindless Kurama.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you making the common mistake of capping Nagato's capabilities to Pain's?
> Preta Path can get countered if it is done under a precise situation, that is Nagato doesn't use other powers like Madara was. Also ITT, Edo Tensei isn't weakening the Rinnegan, so Outer Path stakes stabbing Hashirama would end this battle.
> 
> 
> ...



1. The Wood Dragon will STOP him from using any other powers...

2. Preta Path won't do jack. Wood Dragon GG. Sage Gate GG. 

3. Madara didn't need any of that shit because his other Ninjutsu >>>>>> anything Nagato has.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. The Wood Dragon will STOP him from using any other powers...
> 
> 2. Preta Path won't do jack. Wood Dragon GG. Sage Gate GG.
> 
> 3. Madara didn't need any of that shit because his other Ninjutsu >>>>>> anything Nagato has.



1. That one trick pony would work if Nagato pulls a Madara and only uses Preta and the Outer Path. Except, Nagato will be utilising other Paths ITT and his other jutsu.

2. Lazy argument. Preta solos all the Mokuton and ST solos the Sage Gate.

3. Piss poor argument. 

If this is the extent of your Hashirama argument, then it seems you have no real basis for suggesting the Hashirama can overcome the Rinnegan.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I understand the creativity of Hashirama's arsenal. But, like many characters, it primarily relies on Ninjutsu which is the problem. It is ripe for Preta to counter.
> Not necessarily.
> I am pretty sure I explained Hashi,s win condition above did you not see it?
> I also believe Madara didn't use most of his abilities against Edo Hashirama. Apart from the EMS, he simply used the Outer Path stakes and towards the end, Preta. Not even Mokuton, hence Hashirama's surprise when he saw the Hashiboob.
> ...


Okay fair enough there but my other win conditions are still valid and sound.


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## Itachi san88 (Jul 18, 2020)

The Deity Gates takes away the will of opposing, Nagato is not Juubito, he can't break the Gates used at this level, especially if Hashirama is alive and at full power



We are really claiming that Nagato solos SM Hashirama with Preta Path here. It's not even worth discussing lol


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. That one trick pony would work if Nagato pulls a Madara and only uses Preta and the Outer Path. Except, Nagato will be utilising other Paths ITT and his other jutsu.
> 
> 2. Lazy argument. Preta solos all the Mokuton and ST solos the Sage Gate.
> 
> ...



1. Who told you Madara ''only used Preta and the Outer Path''?

2. Preta Path won't solo the Wood Dragon, which will prevent Nagato from using other arguments.

3. It's a pretty good argument though.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. Who told you Madara ''only used Preta and the Outer Path''?
> 
> 2. Preta Path won't solo the Wood Dragon, which will prevent Nagato from using other arguments.
> 
> 3. It's a pretty good argument though.


He won't need wood Dragon.
He can use 5 wood clones to distract Nagato and while his concentration Is diverted he can use the poisonous pollens from his wood style to weaken and temporarily incapacitate him.
Then Hashi can just drop the Deity Gates on him which are not even chakra ambient and it is GG.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> He won't need wood Dragon.
> He can use 5 wood clones to distract Nagato and while his concentration Is diverted he can use the poisonous pollens from his wood style to weaken and temporarily incapacitate him.
> Then Hashi can just drop the Deity Gates on him which are not even chakra ambient and it is GG.



Good point about the pollen. No way is Nagato obliterating that all. Onoki needed Particle Style and Madara standing by to do it.

Nagato would need his biggest guns to do this and Hashirama isn't gonna just stand back to let him do it.

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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Good point about the pollen. No way is Nagato obliterating that all. Onoki needed Particle Style and Madara standing by to do it.
> 
> Nagato would need his biggest guns to do this and Hashirama isn't gonna just stand back to let him do it.


True indeed but you know the logic being applied here is a bit weird don't you think?
Why are Madara's feats and what he does with the Rinnegan suddenly transferable to Nagato?

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> True indeed but you know the logic being applied here is a bit weird don't you think?
> *Why do Madara's feats and what he does with the Rinnegan suddenly transferable to Nagato*?



I think feats are transferable as long as there is precedent for it.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I think feats are transferable as long as there is precedent for it.


True I do not deny that but there must be feats and lore backing it up like you said.
Also look at the Scale of Edo Rinnegan  Madara's Casual CT Compared to Nagato's own.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> True I do not deny that but there must be feats and lore backing it up like you said.
> Also look at the Scale of Edo Rinnegan  Madara's Casual CT Compared to Nagato's own.



Edo Rinnegan Madara's chakra absorption sucked ass compared to Nagato's though.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Edo Rinnegan Madara's chakra absorption sucked ass compared to Nagato's though.


Why do you say so?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> Why do you say so?



Nagato absorbed Bee's V2 chakra shroud and SM Naruto's FRS without issue. Madara complained about doing so.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nagato absorbed Bee's V2 chakra shroud and SM Naruto's FRS without issue. Madara complained about doing so.


SM Naruto probably improved after his fight with the Nine Tails.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> SM Naruto probably improved after his fight with the Nine Tails.



He did, but not that much.


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## Blaze Release (Jul 18, 2020)

Threads like this should be banned.
How this has even gotten to 6 pages is beyond me.
While i tend not to take much notice of the voting, at least majority have a decent enough grasp of the manga to vote overwhelmingly in favour of hashsirama.

Anyway this fight is not even close.
The weakest version of Hashirama which is edo base hashirama Mid diff at the very best A healthy Prime Nagato.
Nagato will be pinned from the start and will have to quickly exhaust himself just to stay alive agains't Hashirama's base mokuton.
The difference between Nagato and the founders is that, they can opt to destroy the battlefield on a whim costing them little to no damage on their health or reserves. Nagato on the otherhand will be exhausted and edge ever closer to deaths door due to the rinnegan overuse.

This isn't a fight, its a massacre.
SM Hashirama rips his head off and shits down his neck.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 18, 2020)

Blaze Release said:


> Threads like this should be banned.
> How this has even gotten to 6 pages is beyond me.
> While i tend not to take much notice of the voting, at least majority have a decent enough grasp of the manga to vote overwhelmingly in favour of hashsirama.
> 
> ...



I agree 100%.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2020)

King789 said:


> Okay fair enough there but my other win conditions are still valid and sound.



Remind me, what's the win condition you have in mind?



Itachi san88 said:


> The Deity Gates takes away the will of opposing, Nagato is not Juubito, he can't break the Gates used at this level, especially if Hashirama is alive and at full power
> 
> 
> 
> We are really claiming that Nagato solos SM Hashirama with Preta Path here. It's not even worth discussing lol



What a stupid argument. 


Shinra Tensei solos those gates. You have no answer to Mokuton being owned by Preta. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. Who told you Madara ''only used Preta and the Outer Path''?
> 
> 2. Preta Path won't solo the Wood Dragon, which will prevent Nagato from using other arguments.
> 
> 3. It's a pretty good argument though.



1. We saw it. If you have evidence he used other Rinnegan powers, then by all means show us. However, we only saw him use the EMS then we only saw him use the Outer Path, then we saw he was only absorbing jutsu. The guy didn't even use Mokuton. 

2. Yes it would. The wood dragon argument relies on it absorbing Nagato's chakra before Nagato absorbs it first. Its not difficult for Nagato (who could out sense every sensor in the war to find Kabuto) to sense where a wood dragon will be. Hashirama's going to be forced into CQC. 

3. Very poor argument. 



Blaze Release said:


> Threads like this should be banned.
> How this has even gotten to 6 pages is beyond me.
> While i tend not to take much notice of the voting, at least majority have a decent enough grasp of the manga to vote overwhelmingly in favour of hashsirama.
> 
> ...



Problem here is this. You're basing this off an emaciated Nagato using Pain. That's where the flaw comes in. If we have to overestimate Hashirama and not even use the correct Nagato arguments, while severely underrating the Rinnegan, to give Hashirama a win. Then obviously the Hashirama argument is weak.


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## Trojan (Jul 18, 2020)

Kai said:


> Nagato can't even beat 100% Kurama by himself; He has no business fighting either of the Founders at full power.


this is irrelevant tho. 

Kushina can defeat Kurama by herself, so she is stronger than Nagato? 
having an advantage over Kurama doesn't translate (necessarily) into having advantage against someone who is weaker than him...


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> I didn't say otherwise..
> But while nagato's jutsu have more "side effects" they are also more powerful than hashirama's.
> Nagato's strongest jutsu are > hashirama's.
> It's because of the very fact that hashirama can use his more casually that I believe he can win.
> But I definitely don't concur to it being a low diff difficulty



It's not low diff at all, having to use Mokujin isn't low diff.

How are Nagatos strongest Jutsu>Hashiramas? Barring a fully charged CST nothing Nagato has can compete with the level of firepower Hashi can produce.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 19, 2020)

There's nothing suggesting Nagato can defeat even 50% Kurama 

His strongest tech as Pain was casually negged by KN8 *with just physical strength* and even if we assume the gap between Pain and Nagato is as large as the one between KN8 and 50% Kurama, that still doesn't remotely account for Bijūdama which is a hard counter to Chibaku Tensei as per Gyūki canonically

What's more? 50% Kurama is far weaker than 100% Kurama who's stated to be a physical peer to Mokujin - not even SM Mokujin, *base* Mokujin

The point is, base Hashirama could bust out of CT from 100%, Gyūki-amped Nagato with just Mokujin *casually*. Mokuryū is not required. Shinsūsenju is not required. Sage Mode is not required.

Nagato gets clapped low-diff.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 19, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Shinra Tensei solos those gates.



No worries. That attack creates a five second interval for Hashirama to clap Nagato to death.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You have no answer to Mokuton being owned by Preta



You have no answer to Preta being owned by Mokuton, as per canon.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. We saw it. If you have evidence he used other Rinnegan powers, then by all means show us. However, we only saw him use the EMS then we only saw him use the Outer Path, then we saw he was only absorbing jutsu. The guy didn't even use Mokuton



1. Wild assumption. Most of the fight was off-panel and Madara used Perfect Susano'o, his strongest weapon. It's safe to say he and Hashirama exchanged plenty of other jutsu, which almost certainly included Rinnegan techniques. It's a no-brainer, to be frank.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 2. Yes it would. The wood dragon argument relies on it absorbing Nagato's chakra before Nagato absorbs it first. Its not difficult for Nagato (who could out sense every sensor in the war to find Kabuto) to sense where a wood dragon will be. Hashirama's going to be forced into CQC



Nagato is immobile - he doesn't have much of a choice. He's going to get flooded by trees and promptly wrapped with a dragon.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Very poor argument



Which is why you have no answer for it?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Problem here is this. You're basing this off an emaciated Nagato using Pain. That's where the flaw comes in. If we have to overestimate Hashirama and not even use the correct Nagato arguments, while severely underrating the Rinnegan, to give Hashirama a win. Then obviously the Hashirama argument is weak.



It wasn't emaciated Nagato whose Celestial Destroyer got wrecked by BM Bee, KCM Naruto, and Itachi. Base Hashirama outpowers all of those fuckers, to say nothing of SM. Also, do you know what a correct Nagato argument even is, bro?

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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 19, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Remind me, what's the win condition you have in mind?
> Okay here it goes:
> 
> Hashirama can spam multiple wood clones across the battlefield and while Nagato is diverting all his attention on those clones and has his hands full,the real Hashirama can incapacitate Nagato using poisonous pollens and while he is vulnerable that leaves a window of opportunity for Hashirama to restrain him with the Deity Gates which are not even Chakra ambient and it is GG since Nagato has no way to escape and he is not on the level of the Ten Tails.
> ...


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## blk (Jul 19, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Mokuton's trolled by Preta. There's a reason Hashirama used a jutsu not made of chakra to bind Madara at the end. Nagato needs to land Outer Path stakes to immobile Hashirama and that's achievable as Madara showed. Madara didn't even need to use Demon Path, summon assistance or any mastery of Ninjutsu to achieve this too.



I'm pretty sure Mokuton is actual living wood.
Caused to grow by chakra, sure, but like Ninjutsu that use chakra to manipulate real physical matter (like some dotons, or suitons made from water already present, etc) it cannot be absorbed.

Hashirama restrained Madara with Wood Dragon initially, then with the Gates.
He couldn't absorb either. 

Nagato is no where near as skilled in cqc as Madara, on top of the fact that cqc won't happen here. 
It happened in that case because the God Tree was keeping them out of chakra while they were between its branches.
Otherwise Hashirama is mostly a mid and long range Ninjutsu fighter.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 19, 2020)

blk said:


> I'm pretty sure Mokuton is actual living wood.
> Caused to grow by chakra, sure, but like Ninjutsu that use chakra to manipulate real physical matter (like some dotons, or suitons made from water already present, etc) it cannot be absorbed.
> 
> Hashirama restrained Madara with Wood Dragon initially, then with the Gates.
> ...


He will not need wood Dragon I will repaste my ish:
He can use wood clones to distract and divert Nagato's attention.
While he is distracted it gives Hashi a window of opportunity to incapacitate him with poisonous pollens and then he will promptly end the fight with Deity Gates which are not even chakra ambient.


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## Danyboy (Jul 19, 2020)

IIRC it says Hashirama uses life force to control real trees, hense mokuton cant be absorb. Now we can assueme Nagato, maybe, can absorb chakra inside mokuton(if there is any), but the tree itself still would be there.
Absorbation still has a limit, w have seenn many times, users w original rinnegan far stronger then Nagato failed to absorb pure chakra ninjutsu. Now we should belive fake user Nagato, somehow going to negate giant constructs coming at him from every direction. Also Nagatos only way to deal w FTW(in case he somehow knows about pollens that cant be detected) is cst, after that comes biiiig cool down.
Oh also Hashirama slams w gates.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Speedyamell (Jul 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> How are Nagatos strongest Jutsu>Hashiramas? Barring a fully charged CST nothing Nagato has can compete with the level of firepower Hashi can produce.


Yes. Nagato's strongest attacks dwarf hashirama's in terms of scale. I have posted scans that depict this already. 
The CST and CT we saw nagato use on panel weren't even the strongest.. (nagato used CST after ravaging several konoha shinobi, and we later descover that moving paths closer to nagato actually yielded more power, and he used CT after doing all this prior things and oneshotting konoha e.t.c and he even said he could enlarge in his weakened state.) And those moves already dwarf hashirama's in terms of scale


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 19, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No worries. That attack creates a five second interval for Hashirama to clap Nagato to death.



You forgot that this isn't Pain. Preta nullifies Mokuton and Asura claps Hashi CQC. 



> You have no answer to Preta being owned by Mokuton, as per canon.



Stupid argument. You failed to address Mokuton being owned hence Hashirama trying to nullify it then using pure NE gates thereafter. 



> 1. Wild assumption. Most of the fight was off-panel and Madara used Perfect Susano'o, his strongest weapon. It's safe to say he and Hashirama exchanged plenty of other jutsu, which almost certainly included Rinnegan techniques. It's a no-brainer, to be frank.



I'm going by what we saw. That's the no-brainer. You're taking the leap of faith here. 



> Nagato is immobile - he doesn't have much of a choice. He's going to get flooded by trees and promptly wrapped with a dragon.



Did you even read the OP? 



> Which is why you have no answer for it?



Its a lazy Bonly style argument. It is less thought out than the rest of your Hashi argument which isn't very well thought out to begin with. 



> It wasn't emaciated Nagato whose Celestial Destroyer got wrecked by BM Bee, KCM Naruto, and Itachi. Base Hashirama outpowers all of those fuckers, to say nothing of SM. Also, do you know what a correct Nagato argument even is, bro?



You're right, it was an immobile-Edo Nagato with a Fake-Edo Rinnegan controlled by Kabuto. Going by this, you don't seem to know what a correct Nagato argument is, brah. In fact, you don't even know what a Rinnegan argument is at all.


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## Tri (Jul 19, 2020)

Actual spite.


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## JayK (Jul 19, 2020)

7 pages of SM Hashi vs some peasant

are you guys fucking insane?

How about you put that effort into actually decent threads which are not 1 sided clusterfucks?


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 19, 2020)

JayK said:


> 7 pages for SM Hashi vs some peasant
> 
> are you guys fucking insane?


What do you mean?
Nagato is low God tier and he can only be beaten by another Rinnegan wielder8


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 19, 2020)

JK said:


> 7 pages of SM Hashi vs some peasant
> 
> are you guys fucking insane?
> 
> How about you put that effort into actually decent threads which are not 1 sided clusterfucks?


See these type of posts are the Founders wank I'm talking about. It's fine to argue Hashirama wins here, but posters like this make it sound like Nagato is not even in his same tier..


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 19, 2020)

I still haven't heard a good argument for why Preta Path doesn't neg Wood Style. "lel, real wood" makes no sense because it's ninjutsu, and "Wood Dragon gg" gets it's head blown off by Deva or Asura Path. Hashirama even had to pull out the Wood Dragon against Edo Madara to counter Preta Path. Implying Preta Path was an issue for him


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## Tri (Jul 19, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> See these type of posts are the Founders wank I'm talking about. It's fine to argue Hashirama wins here, but posters like this make it sound like Nagato is not even in his same tier..


because he's not


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 19, 2020)

Tri said:


> because he's not


So Nagato is what? High Kage?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 19, 2020)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You forgot that this isn't Pain. Preta nullifies Mokuton and Asura claps Hashi CQC.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Pretty sure it still has a five second interval. The burden of proof is on you to prove me otherwise.

2. Didn't realize canon was a stupid argument. I'm going by what we saw too.

3. Funny, when *I'm *going by what we saw you start whining about it like Bonly does. That's hypocritical, bro.

4. He's still...immobile? Your point?

5. Don't put me on the same level as that dude. These are fighting words. Also, what I said is the truth.

6. The ''fake Edo Rinnegan'' part is headcanon on your part and ''Healthy Nagato'' is still immobile. Even if he wasn't, he is not dodging a forest.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 20, 2020)

*Hashirama Senju *stomps.

It's worth pointing out that a healthy Nagato's strongest technique, Celestial Destroyer, . Even in base, Hashirama's Wood Style constructs  as well as  who  and and . In Sage Mode, his Wood Style constructs as well as . Even a non-Rinne Perfect Susano'o , so to utterly destroy one is incredible. At that level, Hashirama _dwarfs Nagato at the latter's absolute best_.

Yahiko Path's Universal Pull and Universal Push can both be countered by _Wood Style: Dome Wall_ or a similar technique (it's safe to say Hashirama can easily do anything ). Hashirama could also take a leaf from Naruto's book and  using Shadow Clones - he has , after all. The Wood Clones . Having the ability to , though using , gives the First Hokage yet another way to protect himself. Combined, .

Nagato's other techniques are useless too - , Asura Path's weaponry is worthless against , Preta Path's chakra absorption is , and Naraka and Human Path need the First Hokage to be in the user's proximity which is unlikely to _ever _happen considering the abilities mentioned in the last paragraph. To be specific,  - might face an _army of Sage Mode-enhanced Wood Clones_ if he tried to force Hashirama into CQC.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 20, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> So Nagato is what? High Kage?


Yeah High Kage for Sure. I even give him the benefit of the doubt against BM Bee who is another High Kage who is implied to be able to one shot Nagato's strongest tech, mostly because I have no reason to believe that bijuu damas can't be absorbed. Rasengans and Rasenshurikens were absorbed without issue and they use the exact same chakra principles that bijuu dama use. And Nagato already negged a V2 cloak which is a large portion of BM Bee's chakra but compressed in humanoid form. But he isn't founder tier lol.

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## Final Jutsu (Jul 20, 2020)

Hashirama claps and Nagato retreats back to his father's sack.


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 20, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah High Kage for Sure. I even give him the benefit of the doubt against BM Bee who is another High Kage who is implied to be able to one shot Nagato's strongest tech, mostly because I have no reason to believe that bijuu damas can't be absorbed. Rasengans and Rasenshurikens were absorbed without issue and they use the exact same chakra principles that bijuu dama use. And Nagato already negged a V2 cloak which is a large portion of BM Bee's chakra but compressed in humanoid form. But he isn't founder tier lol.


Pain is already top of High Kage at the weakest. How is a far stronger version of him only on that same level? Shit even KCM Naruto is top of High Kage and still almost died 'with Killer B helping' had Itachi not saved them.. Nagato is in Demi God Tier with the Founders or you're downplaying him, period


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 20, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Pain is already top of High Kage at the weakest. How is a far stronger version of him only on that same level? Shit even KCM Naruto is top of High Kage and still almost died 'with Killer B helping' had Itachi not saved them.. Nagato is in Demi God Tier with the Founders or you're downplaying him, period



Lol, poor Maru. I tried to give you an inch and you take a yard lol. But I'll walk you through this because you are not taking into account knowledge. Knowledge is a part of a ninja's strength, but its the most easily changeable stat. 

Nagato caught KCM Naruto off guard with the two jutsu that Naruto never faced in the PA. the chameleon was wounded in the fight with Jiraiya and didn't heal in time, so Pain never used it, and because it never came up, Ma/Pa didn't inform Naruto about it.

The Ningendo path was also killed early on before it showed its abilities, so he didn't know about it.

Its exactly these two jutsu that caught Naruto off guard, and both of them were game ending. There was nothing much he can do since he was also in the same tier as Nagato. Not to mention, Naruto was only fighting Nagato with 1/13th of his power. KCM Naruto is also only high Kage especially pre-coop and only limited to 1/13th of his power dude lol.


Bee is also a high Kage but his arsenal is limited in that Nagato can troll his V1/V2 cloak based taijutsu moves, and obviously Base bee isn't high kage lol though he can hold his own. He was caught off guard by the shared vision of the chameleon. If he was smarter or had knowledge he would have blinded it first like Itachi did.  Nagato outreacted him and overpowered him sure, but even Suigetsu could block one of Bee's sword strikes lol. And it  all started with lack of knowledge. Nagato overpowered two characters who were at or below High Kage who also had the disadvantage in knowledge, so that doesn't scale Nagato to founder tier when his strongest tech got countered shortly after my guy


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 20, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Lol, poor Maru. I tried to give you an inch and you take a yard lol. But I'll walk you through this because you are not taking into account knowledge. Knowledge is a part of a ninja's strength, but its the most easily changeable stat.
> 
> Nagato caught KCM Naruto off guard with the two jutsu that Naruto never faced in the PA. the chameleon was wounded in the fight with Jiraiya and didn't heal in time, so Pain never used it, and because it never came up, Ma/Pa didn't inform Naruto about it.
> 
> ...


You're reaching for excuses for why Naruto lost.. You want him to start with full knowledge against Nagato, and consider that a fair way to gauge who's stronger? If anything it's more fair for them to start with manga knowledge, or even no knowledge. We saw when Sasori lost to an old lady and Sakura or when Obito was pushed to extreme diff by Konan that full knowledge can help someone punch way above their weight class


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 20, 2020)

Lmao.. What spite.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 20, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> You're reaching for excuses for why Naruto lost.. You want him to start with full knowledge against Nagato, and consider that a fair way to gauge who's stronger? If anything it's more fair for them to start with manga knowledge, or even no knowledge. We saw when Sasori lost to an old lady and Sakura or when Obito was pushed to extreme diff by Konan that full knowledge can help someone punch way above their weight class




I think characters in any fair stipulation should be only given the knowledge they have earned/gain in canon. Nagato beat Naruto in that instance because he happened to choose the two jutsu Naruto didn't know about, which is why he won with ease, since they are in the same tier. That doesn't mean that every battle would go that way. Nagato won fair and square, but the win itself doesn't make him founder tier. I''m saying Nagato is much closer to Naruto in power but gaps in knowledge can make an individual  fight appear more onesided than it actually is.

Imagine we know nothing we know now, and go back in time to when P1 was being written,  and  after Zabuza caught Kakashi in the water prison, and the manga ended there. Would you know that Kakashi also had his chances to beat Zabuza?

 Not necessarily
or invert the first fight. Imagine if the fight didn't open with Mist + Water clone feints, but Zabuza opened with water dragon, and then Kakashi copies it and uses sharingan ala canon. And then the manga ends there. would you know that Zabuza had a chance to beat Kakashi with a clone feint + hidden mist+ water prison? no.


That's why you don't just scale off of one battle that you see in canon unless you know for certain the character was simply outgunned/outclassed/or simply outright inferior in skill and power. Only one mistake is needed for a character to lose to another character of the same level, and knowledge gaps are an easy way for mistakes to happen.
Most fights go either way, but one character tends to have a greater chance of winning more times than not.
 And Knowledge is a big part of that since almost no one has full knowledge, but you don't always get to exploit that.  But what you have is experience and physical stats. 

Nagato isn't founder tier because  he won one battle against two characters under founder tier lol, that was my point You were making it seem like what Nagato showed puts him way above them when if we ran another simulation of that battle Nagato may still win but it might be with different difficulty. Lots of variables that shift depending on decisions made.

I don't think Nagato is founder tier because has less experience than the founders who are experienced just as they are strong, and they outclass Nagato in every way. Even Hashirama who has less knowledge on the rinnegan than Madara can cope and learn on the fly because of his power output and experience against superior opponents than Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. Pretty sure it still has a five second interval. The burden of proof is on you to prove me otherwise.
> 
> 2. Didn't realize canon was a stupid argument. I'm going by what we saw too.
> 
> ...



1. It does, but its not the same as fighting Pain. You need to prove he's fighting Pain since you seem to think Nagato has no other abilities and will be left wide open after using ST. 

2. Canon isn't, but your questionable interpretation is. 

3. Both of you are lazy in different threads when it comes to different characters. The quality of your arguments are a dead give away. 

4. Did you not read the OP?

5. What part was the truth?

6. This is the part where I bring up your questionable interpretation. Nagato was an Edo Tensei, he (Rinnegan and all) were completely made from Edo Tensei dust. It was a fake Edo Tensei Rinnegan. On what basis can't he dodge the forest despite having decent speed feats as a cripple, reactionary feats as Pain, a limited speed feat Hanzo praised and Senju body... because you said so and because you gave Mokuton a random speed multiplier? Also Preta Path says hi.


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