# Black Clover vs Aizen Sosuke



## Keishin (Apr 6, 2022)

How far has BC come now? Aizen descends on the verse.


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## Casval Rem Aznable (Apr 6, 2022)

If he is lucky with KS he can pull a Win. But most likely he gets killed by God tiers. BC verse' is much faster and hax some good hax in their disposal


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 6, 2022)

Julius time stops him gg

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Daio (Apr 6, 2022)

Aizen passively erases.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 6, 2022)

what is he doing to Julius


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 6, 2022)

BC vs FT threads would be more fitting


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 6, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Julius time stops him gg



Would that work seeing the kototsu didn't affect Aizen?


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## Keishin (Apr 6, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> what is he doing to Julius


kill


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 6, 2022)

how


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## Keishin (Apr 6, 2022)

wasnt he going to crush the royal realm with his reiatsu? i wouldnt say julius can do that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 6, 2022)

Keishin said:


> wasnt he going to crush the royal realm with his reiatsu? i wouldnt say julius can do that.


Julius can reverse time over a whole country


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Would that work seeing the kototsu didn't affect Aizen?


Lol? Am i really reading this shit? The Kototsu can displace you in time due to the properties of the dangai, not specifically the kototsu itself


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 6, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Lol? Am i really reading this shit? The Kototsu can displace you in time due to the properties of the dangai, not specifically the kototsu itself



The kototsu is a literal time current.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 6, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> what is he doing to Julius



EOS Aizen reiatsu crushes this Julius guy...

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 6, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> EOS Aizen reiatsu crushes this Julius guy...


you have no idea what you are talking about

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 4


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 6, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Julius time stops him gg


Didn't he ignore time based abilities with cleaner?


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 6, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Julius can reverse time over a whole country
> 
> Lol? Am i really reading this shit? The Kototsu can displace you in time due to the properties of the dangai, not specifically the kototsu itself


It does both,  it can send you centuries in the future under its own power but aizen destroying it is still a feat.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 6, 2022)

Medjaynegus said:


> Didn't he ignore time based abilities with cleaner?


No, again thats not how the cleaner works.

him blowing it up also doesnt even magically make him immune to time shit cause he just killed it, he never touches it


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 6, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> No, again thats not how the cleaner works.
> 
> him blowing it up also doesnt even magically make him immune to time shit cause he just killed it, he never touches it


He did touch it, hell the little interaction ichigo's group did with the cleaner sent them days earlier than what they should have arrived. If it was not for kisses technology they might have been sent further.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 6, 2022)

Medjaynegus said:


> He did touch it, hell the little interaction ichigo's group did with the cleaner sent them days earlier than what they should have arrived. If it was not for kisses technology they might have been sent further.


Post the panel of Aizen directly touching the cleaner


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 6, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Post the panel of Aizen directly touching the cleaner


His reiatsu interacted with the cleaner. That is him directly touching jt


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 6, 2022)

Also yourichi confirms the kotustu chasing them did change their time of arrival in ss


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 7, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> you have no idea what you are talking about



Don't you think it's better to explain why you think so ? 
So I can learn?

Cause as far as I know Julius guy is far below EOS Aizen in power.
And what can time stop do to Kyoka Suigetsu kanzen Saimi ???

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 7, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> Don't you think it's better to explain why you think so ?
> So I can learn?
> 
> Cause as far as I know Julius guy is far below EOS Aizen in power.
> And what can time stop do to Kyoka Suigetsu kanzen Saimi ???


Blitz him and timestop him before he can even think lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 8, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Blitz him and timestop him before he can even think lol



Why would timestop work if the kototsu didn't ?


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## Akira1993 (Apr 9, 2022)

Doesn't Aizen passively put them down with his reatsu judging the gap in their stats?

He literally put Grimmjow down by the pressure of his reatsu alone.


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## BossKitten (Apr 9, 2022)

Aizen should be able to resist or effect time abilities given what he did to the cleaner.


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## Djomla (Apr 9, 2022)

Julius Novachrono.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 9, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Why would timestop work if the kototsu didn't ?





BossKitten said:


> Aizen should be able to resist or effect time abilities given what he did to the cleaner.


Are yall going to give any explanation as to fucking why it would work? Displacing someone in time is far different from having time stopped on yourself, Aizen needs feats for both

Also again, he never resisted the cleaner, he just killed it lol, like if someone has a gun and i stab them before they shoot me, clearly im faster than a bullet

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 9, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Are yall going to give any explanation as to fucking why it would work? Displacing someone in time is far different from having time stopped on yourself, Aizen needs feats for both
> 
> Also again, he never resisted the cleaner, he just killed it lol, like if someone has a gun and i stab them before they shoot me, clearly im faster than a bullet



Why so emotional? Lol. 

The cleaner automatically effects time and space. The ability to do so is part of its existence. Aizen killing it off along with whatever aura it had around it shows he can interact with those types of abilities, which is all I said. 

It's been a long time since I seen Julius's time-stop, but if Aizen can still think, he still has options. Also, Julius is going to be effected by KS just by looking at current Aizen. He'll end up time stopping Asta thinking that its Aizen, lol.


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 9, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Are yall going to give any explanation as to fucking why it would work? Displacing someone in time is far different from having time stopped on yourself, Aizen needs feats for both
> 
> Also again, he never resisted the cleaner, he just killed it lol, like if someone has a gun and i stab them before they shoot me, clearly im faster than a bullet


His reiatsu came into contact with the cleaner and he was not sent in time, that is more than enough proof here.


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## Sabotage (Apr 9, 2022)

Lol at the Bleach wank. Killing the cleaner doesn't give Aizen the ability to resist or no sell time stop.

Julius blitzes and time stops

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Keishin (Apr 9, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Lol at the Bleach wank. Killing the cleaner doesn't give Aizen the ability to resist or no sell time stop.
> 
> Julius blitzes and time stops


does julius have enough feats to be able to blitz and time stop transcended aizen who destroyed cleaner?


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## Sabotage (Apr 9, 2022)

Keishin said:


> does julius have enough feats to be able to blitz and time stop transcended aizen who destroyed cleaner?


Julius is FTL. Aizen might as well be a statue to him.

Also,

>the cleaner distorts time in the Dangai
>Aizen killing it means he is immune to time manipulation

That's not how it works. He has no feats of resisting time stop.


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## Daio (Apr 9, 2022)

Hikone is at least light speed based on his "God speed" in CFYOW. Aizen isn't getting blitzed by anyone.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 9, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Julius is FTL. Aizen might as well be a statue to him.
> 
> Also,
> 
> ...



Post Julius's time stop. 

Also, he's still getting effected by KS just by looking at EOS Aizen.


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## Sabotage (Apr 9, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Post Julius's time stop.
> 
> Also, he's still getting effected by KS just by looking at EOS Aizen.


Julius is able to freeze people in time and even put them in a . He was even able to dodge and  and send it back to Patry.

He also aged people so fast they .


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## Skaddix (Apr 9, 2022)

He is going be in KS so it really doesn't matter.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 9, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Julius is able to freeze people in time and even put them in a . He was even able to dodge and  and send it back to Patry.
> 
> He also aged people so fast they .



Okay, so its how I remembered... There is a few issues here for Julius:

1) The people he aged are humans, not gods that live for thousands of years, so that feat does nothing here; especially against Aizen.

2) His time stop is a very small sphere and would be coming in contact with Aizen's reitsu, which we know can effect time and space energy. 

3) You're still aware in the sphere, so nothing stops Aizen from using KS, flexing reitsu for an offensive attack, or using kido that has range outside of the sphere, assuming it could even hold him in the first place. 

Aizen has more experience against Julius's type of ability than Julius has experience fighting a being like Aizen that's constantly putting out power and pressure that can effect time/space beings, passively kill human, and require shinigami to be cautious....and once again, there's KS.


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## Sabotage (Apr 9, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Okay, so its how I remembered... There is a few issues here for Julius:
> 
> 1) The people he aged are humans, not gods that live for thousands of years, so that feat does nothing here; especially against Aizen.


I'm not entirely sure if Julius can age Aizen, I'll give you that, but he can definitely incapacitate him.


BossKitten said:


> 2) His time stop is a very small sphere and would be coming in contact with Aizen's reitsu, which we know can *effect time and space energy.*


When did it do that? The kototsu? How does that make Aizen immune to being frozen in time?


BossKitten said:


> 3) You're still aware in the sphere, so nothing stops Aizen from using KS, flexing reitsu for an offensive attack, or using kido that has range outside of the sphere, assuming it could even hold him in the first place.


Again, how is he going to do this while frozen in time?


BossKitten said:


> Aizen has more experience against Julius's type of ability than Julius has experience fighting a being like Aizen that's constantly putting out power and pressure that can effect time/space beings, passively kill human, and require shinigami to be cautious....and once again, there's KS.


Recent bleach calcs put the top tiers at sub-rela (I'm not getting into novel shenanigans and possible mistranslations). Aizen is basically a statue to Julius. He blitzes him before he can activate KS


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## Steven (Apr 9, 2022)

Timestop aint a Autowin


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## Sabotage (Apr 9, 2022)

^When you can make your opponent immobile to the point they can't fight anymore, then that's a win

Reactions: Like 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 9, 2022)

Ziggy said:


> Timestop aint a Autowin


Aizen is incapacitated and cant do anything to overcome it, thats a win my dude

Reactions: Agree 2


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## BossKitten (Apr 9, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> I'm not entirely sure if Julius can age Aizen, I'll give you that, but he can definitely incapacitate him.
> 
> When did it do that? The kototsu? How does that make Aizen immune to being frozen in time?
> 
> ...



In your own scans it shows that the people are still aware while in the sphere. It isn't a complete time stop like you're implying. 

Julius's time stop is limited to very small sphere's which are easily in Aizen's aura range. He constantly emits power, which would interact with the sphere. There's nothing to suggest that Julius's sphere's can hold out against that kind of pressure. 

Julius himself calls it a "continues split second". 

All Julius has to do is look at Aizen and he's effected.  Also Aizen's aura is passive.


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## Sabotage (Apr 9, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> In your own scans it shows that the people are still aware while in the sphere. It isn't a complete time stop like you're implying.
> 
> Julius's time stop is limited to very small sphere's which are easily in Aizen's aura range. He constantly emits power, which would interact with the sphere. There's nothing to suggest that Julius's sphere's can hold out against that kind of pressure.
> 
> ...


So he's aware, and? He still can't do anything, just like the members of the EMS. Julius's Chrono Stasis can even freeze light. Why is Aizen supposed to be able to break out of it? Because it's a small sphere? Because he's a "transcendent being"? Please.

Post evidence of Aizen brute forcing his way out of a time stop with reiatsu alone.


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## BossKitten (Apr 9, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> So he's aware, and? He still can't do anything, just like the members of the EMS. Julius's Chrono Stasis can even freeze light. Why is Aizen supposed to be able to break out of it? Because it's a small sphere? Because he's a "transcendent being"? Please.
> 
> Post evidence of Aizen brute forcing his way out of a time stop with reiatsu alone.



LMAO, The members of the EMS are trash tier and really aren't worth note. Aizen's thoughts and feelings effect the hog, so yeah, him being aware matters. He can produce a crazy amount of force and power while covered in seals strapped to a chair, and immobile. 

What feats does Lict's light magic have that has anything to do with what is being discussed? 

Aizen can break out because his aura and KS have passive effects within a certain range. Do you not understand how range works?

Post evidence of Julius using his sphere on ANYONE who emits outward pressure on the level of Aizen as a passive ability.


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## Sabotage (Apr 9, 2022)

I've learned a few things from the wanking and stonewalling of the Cloroxfags in this thread. Apparently killing somebody or something gives you immunity to their abilities. I guess since Ultimate Kars can kill Dio, he's immune to time stop. Something to remember




And apparently Aizen's aura gives him abilities he's never had or shown. I never knew this. Truly amazing


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## BossKitten (Apr 9, 2022)

Also, stopping time isn't implied to be anything major in Bleach.





And we know raw power can destroy space and time abilities in Bleach because of what Aizen did to the cleaner, and this:





Not to mention that in Bleach, anyone at Fullbrig Ichigo's level and above can  produces enough power to destroy pocket dimensions with their reitsu flexing. Julius's sphere's have never been tested on that level.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 9, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Also, stopping time isn't implied to be anything major in Bleach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


again, nothing here implies he can resist timestop. Tessai is literally the only dude who has shown a form of timestop, and its never used again, plus we dont know how his even works lol

distorting time and space =/= resisting timestop

also, raw power isnt >> stopping time, thats not how it works lmao

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 10, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> again, nothing here implies he can resist timestop. Tessai is literally the only dude who has shown a form of timestop, and its never used again, plus we dont know how his even works lol
> 
> distorting time and space =/= resisting timestop
> 
> also, raw power isnt >> stopping time, thats not how it works lmao



Do you guys not understand how range and containment works?


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## Steven (Apr 10, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Aizen is incapacitated and cant do anything to overcome it, thats a win my dude


How is that a win?Unless Julius can keep his timestop up forever


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 10, 2022)

Ziggy said:


> How is that a win?Unless Julius can keep his timestop up forever


He can, not that he needs to lmao

if Aizen is incapacitated for a reasonable length of time, thats a win


BossKitten said:


> Do you guys not understand how range and containment works?


The hell are you talking about? Julius has as much range as Aizen, dude can cover a whole country with his magic


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 10, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Are yall going to give any explanation as to fucking why it would work? Displacing someone in time is far different from having time stopped on yourself, Aizen needs feats for both
> 
> Also again, he never resisted the cleaner, he just killed it lol, like if someone has a gun and i stab them before they shoot me, clearly im faster than a bullet





Sabotage said:


> Julius is able to freeze people in time and even put them in a . He was even able to dodge and  and send it back to Patry.
> 
> He also aged people so fast they .



Either reiatsu or his hand touching Kototsu means time BFR while simultaneously being aged to dust, none of those things happened to Aizen.

That's resistance to time displacement and having his time manipulated.




OneSimpleAnime said:


> again, nothing here implies he can resist timestop. Tessai is literally the only dude who has shown a form of timestop, and its never used again, plus we dont know how his even works lol
> 
> distorting time and space =/= resisting timestop
> 
> also, raw power isnt >> stopping time, thats not how it works lmao



The whole point of Aizen was that he had the powerlevel to ignore anything in Bleach, Tessai ain't time stopping Aizen.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 10, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Either reiatsu or his hand touching Kototsu means time BFR while simultaneously being aged to dust, none of those things happened to Aizen.
> 
> That's resistance to time displacement and having his time manipulated.
> 
> ...


No it is not lmao, its, at best, time displacement resistance, which means shit all for time stop

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 10, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He can, not that he needs to lmao
> 
> if Aizen is incapacitated for a reasonable length of time, thats a win
> 
> The hell are you talking about? Julius has as much range as Aizen, dude can cover a whole country with his magic



Julius reversal in the fight with Lict took everything he had and lasted for a few seconds, which isn't going to be enough to win a fight here. The only mid-battle time-stop that hasn't been shown to take a big toll on him is the spheres, which are based on keeping an opponent confined in a small space.

*The issue here is NOT Aizen no selling time-stop, its the containment basis of Julius's specific time stop*

Shinra from Fire Force can stop time, and Aizen wouldn't have a counter because Shinra's range is planet level, and his time stop effects what he wants without needing a container. In that case, Aizen's spiritual force, aura, etc; would do nothing as there isn't anything to break free from within close range.

Julius NEVER contained anything or anyone that exhorted pressure. The fragility of his spheres are an issue, and can only scale to whatever he scales to at best. The people he locked in the sphere were weak humans that don't even scale to city level. They also produce no pressure to break themselves free because that isn't a thing in Black Clover (at least up to that point in time).

Unless you think Tessai, Urahara's assistant can beat Aizen, you're kidding yourself for the sake of wank. The mechanics of Bleach, just like Dragon Ball, allow you to do things based on raw power. Aizen and Ichigo destroying things that effect space and time is based on them being stronger than the user of the effect (in this case, it would be Julius). Spiritual Pressure brining city, island, and country level people to their knees, or causing them to freeze up for a second is an effect. Aizen casually produces enough pressure to freakout island level people even while covered in seals, and you're assuming that pressure isn't going to break him free based on nothing.

Lastly, Julius's spheres still allow normal ass humans to formulate thought and be aware while being in an *continues split second*. A split second is more than enough time for Aizen to flex his power.

Oh, and none of this really matters since Julius is going to be done in by KS anyway.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 10, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Julius reversal in the fight with Lict took everything he had and lasted for a few seconds, which isn't going to be enough to win a fight here. The only mid-battle time-stop that hasn't been shown to take a big toll on him is the spheres, which are based on keeping an opponent confined in a small space.
> 
> *The issue here is NOT Aizen no selling time-stop, its the containment basis of Julius's specific time stop*
> 
> ...


My dude, the explained mechanics of the sphere dont work like that, the explanation and actual performance of the spheres do not line up. He can stop things moving at C and they are frozen, if it was actually a split second loop deal it wouldnt keep light trapped lmao


He can also spam the spheres to basically no end, he used tons of them in the fight with literally 0 issue. 

Also please tell me how KS would work on a guy hundreds of times faster than Aizen, who has precog, country wide range, and can timestop him with a thought lol


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## BossKitten (Apr 10, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> My dude, the explained mechanics of the sphere dont work like that, the explanation and actual performance of the spheres do not line up. He can stop things moving at C and they are frozen, if it was actually a split second loop deal it wouldnt keep light trapped lmao
> 
> 
> He can also spam the spheres to basically no end, he used tons of them in the fight with literally 0 issue.
> ...



The point is that you're still aware in the sphere, just physically immobile, which has nothing to do with being able to contain the spiritual pressure. 

And those spheres are going to deal with containing the spiritual pressure how? 

KS is going to work because Julius is going to look at him, which is all it takes to effect him. Julius isn't going to fight from a country-wide distance. He relies heavily on his speed and would have no idea that he's effected.


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## J★J♥ (Apr 11, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Julius time stops him gg


Time stop alone aint going to do shit. Time stop and then what ?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 11, 2022)

J★J♥ said:


> Time stop alone aint going to do shit. Time stop and then what ?


Why? Aizen cant overcome the timestop, hes fucked


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## J★J♥ (Apr 11, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Why? Aizen cant overcome the timestop, hes fucked


Is it permanent ?


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## Steven (Apr 11, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> if Aizen is incapacitated for a reasonable length of time, thats a win


Yeah no,thats no win-con

Can Julius K.O. or Kill or BFR Aizen?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 11, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> No it is not lmao, its, at best, time displacement resistance, which means shit all for time stop



Why do you think it isn't?

Was pretty clearly stated that's what could have happened to the group if not for Urahara's tech and the fact only Orihime's energy shield and not her hairpins touched the time current.


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## BossKitten (Apr 11, 2022)

Steven said:


> Yeah no,thats no win-con
> 
> Can Julius K.O. or Kill or BFR Aizen?



Nope. Julius's fire power is nothing special whatsoever, especially by Bleach standards.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 11, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Blitz him and timestop him before he can even think lol



1. How cam he blitz EOS Aizen? Who even if you low ball his speed would easily be sub relativistic scaling from Ichibei's 1000 ri.

2. How can he get close to Aizen , the reiatsu will vaporize the Julius guy , no?

3. Superior reiatsu negates abilities. Meaning Aizen's reiatsu negates the timestop of Julius..

Aizen stops the verse bro , simple.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 11, 2022)

CBA with all the time shit, but if the ability to freeze Aizen in time isn’t permanent, then it’s not a wincon, Aizen will wait out the time due to being immortal and then shit stomp Julius once he’s ran out of magic.

BFR is removing someone who can’t return, if Aizen just has to chill in frozen time until the magic runs out, he’s got that on lock.


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## accountmaker (Apr 11, 2022)

The Bleach wank is insane

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Voyeur (Apr 11, 2022)

What is going on here? Are people actually claiming that a sub rel character can react to a FTL dude that controls time? Lawl.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 11, 2022)

Trust me, I don’t wanna be associated with it either despite being a chlorox fan.

Anyone know if the time bubble lasts forever?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 11, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> What is going on here? Are people actually claiming that a sub rel character can react to a FTL dude that controls time? Lawl.



Doesn't really matter given the range Aizenhas with his attacks.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 11, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Doesn't really matter given the range Aizenhas with his attacks.


Julius could lap earth before the attack is even launched mere centimetres from Aizen’s hands

Speed of light is massively quicker than sub Rel. Especially at Aizen’s numbers.

His only way to win is if Julius runs out of “time” trying to defeat Aizen. As it seems his magic is a limited resource, thereby it stands to reason he can’t forever keep someone in a time loop? Or am I wrong?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 11, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Julius could lap earth before the attack is even launched mere centimetres from Aizen’s hands
> 
> Speed of light is massively quicker than sub Rel. Especially at Aizen’s numbers.
> 
> His only way to win is if Julius runs out of “time” trying to defeat Aizen. As it seems his magic is a limited resource, thereby it stands to reason he can’t forever keep someone in a time loop? Or am I wrong?



Aizen can just use the 5 dragon spell or kurohitsugi for basically city level AoE, with no warning, or just cover himself with barriers and the like the moment he realises Julius is too fast, or just melt the guy when it gets close which is a passive thing.


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## Steven (Apr 11, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> The Bleach wank is insane


The Ironie coming from a One Piece wankes.Great


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## BossKitten (Apr 11, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> The Julius wank is insane



Agreed


Voyeur said:


> What is going on here? Are people actually claiming that a sub rel character can react to a FTL dude that controls time? Lawl.



Julius is fast with no fire power. His best case scenario is getting outlasted.


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## Voyeur (Apr 11, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Julius is fast with _no fire power_. His best case scenario is getting outlasted.


I'm not versed in BC very well, but even I know that's false.


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## Big Bob (Apr 11, 2022)

Would Julius not be able to infinitely use his time spells since Aizen is immortal?


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 11, 2022)

The Belch wank is flat out disgusting man  . Shit should have been over as soon as someone mentioned FTL let alone fucking Julius of all nibbas .

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Voyeur (Apr 12, 2022)

You guys are saying that Aizen has resistance to being incapacitated by time stop, then prove it.  Your claim about the cleaner got debunked.  Aizen can't react to someone that is literally hundreds of times faster than him. There's a reason why Professor X can arguably solo Dragon ball pre-super despite not having the raw fire power that the characters do, and it's because he has faster reactions and because of his mind fuck abilities which is something no one in Dragon ball has shown resisting to his degree. The same principle applies here. Aizen cannot react or have resistance to being trapped in a time sphere by a FTL character.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> You guys are saying that Aizen has resistance to being incapacitated by time stop, then prove it.  Your claim about the cleaner got debunked.  Aizen can't react to someone that is literally hundreds of times faster than him. There's a reason why Professor X can arguably solo Dragon ball pre-super despite not having the raw fire power that the characters do, and it's because he has faster reactions and because of his mind fuck abilities which is something no one in Dragon ball has shown resisting to his degree. The same principle applies here. Aizen cannot react or have resistance to being trapped in a time sphere by a FTL character.


Nobody debunked the cleaner, his reiatsu interacted with it and he was not affected.


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## BossKitten (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> I'm not versed in BC very well, but even I know that's false.



Black Clover has speed and haxx. They don't pack much of a punch. So no, it isn't false. Time Stop and speed makes Julius a threat. Speed and Anti Magic make Asta a threat. Speed and Darkness makes Yami a threat, and so on. The verse as a whole lacks DC power compared to Bleach and Naruto unless they got a major calc upgrade recently.


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## BossKitten (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> You guys are saying that Aizen has resistance to being incapacitated by time stop, then prove it.  Your claim about the cleaner got debunked.  Aizen can't react to someone that is literally hundreds of times faster than him. There's a reason why Professor X can arguably solo Dragon ball pre-super despite not having the raw fire power that the characters do, and it's because he has faster reactions and because of his mind fuck abilities which is something no one in Dragon ball has shown resisting to his degree. The same principle applies here. Aizen cannot react or have resistance to being trapped in a time sphere by a FTL character.



No claim about the cleaner has been debunked. 

Ichigo destroying Black Coffin which also effects time and space backed up that being more powerful reitsu lets you effect time and space abilities with raw power.

Tessei can also stop time and didn't even see it as an option against shinigami Aizen, yet alone EOS Aizen.

Now how about you or anyone else prove that:
1) Julius isn't going to be done in by KS when he looks at Aizen.

2) Julius's sphere's won't be effected by Aizen's passive spiritual pressure.


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 12, 2022)

I'm with BossKitten on this one (mostly).

Aizen's passive reiatsu is a pretty solid counter to a speed advantage. Especially if BC hasn't seen any serious upgrades to their DC.    

And Aizen being clearly superior to things/characters like the cleaner, Tessai, and Baraggan makes it really hard to accept that Julias' spells won't just dissolve on contact with Aizen's reaitsu like it's made out of anti-magic.



BossKitten said:


> ) Julius isn't going to be done in by KS when he looks at Aizen.


That's not how KS works. 

Its shikai's power is activated the same as any Zanpaktou. Aizen specifically gathered the Vice Captains in order to demonstrate its release and thus get them all under its effect. 

If Julius is hundreds of times faster than Aizen, KS isn't going to come into play. Julius either has the means to shut him down, or he crashes and burns against Aizen's passive reiatsu.


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## Voyeur (Apr 12, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Black Clover has speed and haxx. They don't pack much of a punch. So no, it isn't false. Time Stop and speed makes Julius a threat. Speed and Anti Magic make Asta a threat. Speed and Darkness makes Yami a threat, and so on. The verse as a whole lacks DC power compared to Bleach and Naruto unless they got a major calc upgrade recently.


..what? Having broken abilities that don't necessarily have raw firepower does make you powerful. What are you talking about? Nobody's arguing that BC is on power pure damage wise to Bleach and Naruto, it's the abilities in the universe that make it a threat.



BossKitten said:


> No claim about the cleaner has been debunked.



Except it has. Aizen destroying the cleaner doesn't give him resistance to being time stopped.




BossKitten said:


> Ichigo destroying Black Coffin which also effects time and space backed up that being more powerful reitsu lets you effect time and space abilities with raw power.



When was Ichigo ever frozen in time?
Did we read the same manga? Cause I'm sure we didn't.



BossKitten said:


> Tessei can also stop time and didn't even see it as an option against shinigami Aizen, yet alone EOS Aizen.



CIS isn't a valid argument.




BossKitten said:


> Now how about you or anyone else prove that:
> 1) Julius isn't going to be done in by KS when he looks at Aizen.


Burden of proof rests on the positive claim. You're claiming Aizen can resist being frozen in time. So fucking prove it. It's already common knowledge that Aizen is a fucking statue to Julius.  So I don't even need to address the fact that Julius would have already done thousands of fucking actions before Aizen moves his hand .



BossKitten said:


> 2) Julius's sphere's won't be effected by Aizen's passive spiritual pressure.


 Prove it. Prove Aizen's spiritual pressure will affect Julius.

LAWL REIATSU CRUSH  isn't an argument.


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## Linvel (Apr 12, 2022)

I think the Reiatsu argument stems from the fact that Aizen has been shown to null hax just by having so much more reiatsu than his opponent and using it to nullify the hax an example would be Soi Fon’s shikai who I think scales higher than Julius. The only other things that comes to mind is people being injured or killed by his reiastu pressure alone. An example would be bringing Grimmjow to his knees by flexing his reiatsu.

Probably wrong someway though.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Except it has. Aizen destroying the cleaner doesn't give him resistance to being time stopped.



Where?

Nobody has given any counter-argument to that.





Voyeur said:


> When was Ichigo ever frozen in time?
> Did we read the same manga? Cause I'm sure we didn't.



In Bleach powerlevel allows you to ignore anything a weaker character does if there's enough of a difference, Urahara and Tessai knows timestop but they didn't try that on Aizen, instead they developed new sealing techniques specifically for him.

And even that only worked when he got depowered.





Voyeur said:


> Prove it. Prove Aizen's spiritual pressure will affect Julius.
> 
> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH isn't an argument.



Is not reiatsu crush, is a literal invisible armor that melts weaker beings passively.


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## Voyeur (Apr 12, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Where?
> 
> Nobody has given any counter-argument to that.


Read the thread. This has been addressed multiple fucking times in the first two pages.
Trolling is frowned upon and given your reputation, I'm not addressing this again.  


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> In Bleach powerlevel allows you to ignore anything a weaker character does if there's enough of a difference, *Urahara and Tessai knows timestop but they didn't try that on Aizen*, instead they developed new sealing techniques specifically for him.
> 
> And even that only worked when he got depowered.


That's great and all but plot kai doesn't apply here, and it has not been shown in the entirety of Bleach that he or anybody in the story for someone to resist time stop. Try again. Feats > Character Statements



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Is not reiatsu crush, is a literal invisible armor that melts weaker beings passively.



That's great and all but REIATSU has to be CONSCIOUSLY released. So I'm not sure where you and your buddies  keep thinking Aizen has time to react to someone that is literally hundreds of not  thousands of times faster than him.


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## Keishin (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> That's great and all but REIATSU has to be CONSCIOUSLY released. So I'm not sure where you and your buddies  keep thinking Aizen has time to react to someone that is literally hundreds of not  thousands of times faster than him.


aizen doesnt in fact he has to lower his reiatsu instead of use it, and that his reiatsu close to him due to the chair and clothes.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Read the thread. This has been addressed multiple fucking times in the first two pages.
> Trolling is frowned upon and given your reputation, I'm not addressing this again.



No it hasn't, try and quote anyone.




Voyeur said:


> That's great and all but plot kai doesn't apply here, and it has not been shown in the entirety of Bleach that he or anybody in the story for someone to resist time stop. Try again. Feats > Character Statements



Is not plot kai, that's the whole reason Aizen wanted to evolve and why he doesn't dodge anything anymore, is also why Gin is there to give context to the cleaner scene.



Voyeur said:


> That's great and all but REIATSU has to be CONSCIOUSLY released. So I'm not sure where you and your buddies keep thinking Aizen has time to react to someone that is literally hundreds of not thousands of times faster than him.



Not at all, actually the opposite, can't be stopped.


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## Captain Quincy (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> That's great and all but REIATSU has to be CONSCIOUSLY released.


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## Voyeur (Apr 12, 2022)

Keishin said:


> aizen doesnt in fact he has to lower his reiatsu instead of use it, and that his reiatsu close to him due to the chair and clothes.


Aizen doesn't start the fight with his REIATSU released.  Actually, for almost the entire manga he doesn't have it passively activated. By that logic, all of the characters would have fainted or been killed everytime he was on panel.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> -Snip-




If you aren't going to read the thread then I'm done talking to you.


The entire fight undermines your argument because once Ichigo strengthens his REIATSU consciously, he over powers Kenpachi. Kenpachi's entire gimmick is the fact that he never got his shikai until EOS and that he was fighting everyone on an incomplete shikai release that was constant so he used his eye patch to nerf himself. Kenpachi is not Aizen. False equivalence.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Captain Quincy (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> The entire fight undermines your argument because once Ichigo strengthens his REIATSU consciously, he over powers Kenpachi. Kenpachi's entire gimmick is the fact that he never got his shikai until EOS and that he was fighting everyone on an incomplete shikai release that was constant so he used his eye patch to nerf himself.


You said reiatsu has to be consciously released.

But that's not true. It's also unconsciously released.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 12, 2022)

This retarded shit is still going on I see  . Belch nibbas truly are built different.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Keishin (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Aizen doesn't start the fight with his REIATSU released.  Actually, for almost the entire manga he doesn't have it passively activated. By that logic, all of the characters would have fainted or been killed everytime he was on panel.


he does now so your argument has been completely debunked

was there anything else...?


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## Voyeur (Apr 12, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> You said reiatsu has to be consciously released.
> 
> But that's not true. It's also unconsciously released.


Except in the following chapter Kenpachi admits he's in a constant state of release on purpose.


Keishin said:


> he does now so your argument has been completely debunked
> 
> was there anything else...?


Changing the terms of the battle to fit your narrative doesn't debunk my argument, it strengthens it actually.

Time stop GG.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 12, 2022)

Edward Nygma said:


> I'm with BossKitten on this one (mostly).
> 
> Aizen's passive reiatsu is a pretty solid counter to a speed advantage. Especially if BC hasn't seen any serious upgrades to their DC.
> 
> ...


BC should be at least island level or so, one of the ancient demons was said to be able to blow away the Clover Kingdom and the only reason Julius couldnt stop it was because of his age nerf, and Asta oneshot it pmuch


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## Keishin (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Except in the following chapter Kenpachi admits he's in a constant state of release on purpose.
> 
> Changing the terms of the battle to fit your narrative doesn't debunk my argument, it strengthens it actually.
> 
> Time stop GG.


 concession accepted


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## Voyeur (Apr 12, 2022)

Belchtards :





Tl Dr; OP got butthurt Aizen lost.  Thread can get locked now. Gg.


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## Captain Quincy (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Except in the following chapter Kenpachi admits he's in a constant state of release on purpose.


He's not even in the next couple chapters.

I assume you mean this scene:




He's just saying his zanpakuto is always in base because he can't transform into shikai or bankai. That's not related to what we're discussing. It's explicitly stated reiatsu is also released unconsciously, this isn't debatable.


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 12, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> BC should be at least island level or so, one of the ancient demons was said to be able to blow away the Clover Kingdom and the only reason Julius couldnt stop it was because of his age nerf, and Asta oneshot it pmuch


To be fair, If it came to that it’s still not close enough. Island Level is like Grimmjow level. They just way quicker and have Julius to stop the verse being shitstomped.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 12, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> The entire fight undermines your argument because once Ichigo strengthens his REIATSU consciously, he over powers Kenpachi. Kenpachi's entire gimmick is the fact that he never got his shikai until EOS and that he was fighting everyone on an incomplete shikai release that was constant so he used his eye patch to nerf himself. Kenpachi is not Aizen. False equivalence.



This is a very uneducated response. You clearly have no clue about Bleach.
The reiatsu of the Shinigami is something that leaks out of their bodies unconsciously. So they don't have to be in the defensive constantly.

Ichigo cutting Kenpachi's skin means Ichigo got stronger than before and hit harder than before. And lol at the rate spam...U mad bro?

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 12, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> And lol at the rate spam...U mad bro?



I rate him optimistic and he instantly rate me with 3 optimistic reactions hahahahahhahahaha

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Daio (Apr 12, 2022)

I don't get why people love to be loud and wrong.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 12, 2022)

To be precise about the reiatsu stuff.
In chapter 623 is specified that "spiritual pressure springs eternally" so it's true that's a passive thing but that's "as long as their heart continues beating". I don't know BC or this specific time stop, but it can stop the heart it should work



Voyeur said:


> When was Ichigo ever frozen in time?


Chapter 110.
But seriously, I can see some point for having some kind of time-related resistance (given barragan, tessai, kōtotsu...) but I understand that's not a clear time-stop resistance. Better to discuss about it on the Meta-Battledome and move on to another character?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Voyeur (Apr 12, 2022)



Reactions: Creative 1


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 12, 2022)

Like bruh some of you nibbas just mention shit effecting space and time and characters resisting it. As if time and space distortion and time stop are the same thing. Hint: they aren't   . So throw the black coffin Kido into the fucking trash where it belongs.


Bad Wolf said:


> Chapter 110.
> But seriously, I can see some point for having some kind of time-related resistance (given barragan, tessai, kōtotsu...) but I understand that's not a clear time-stop resistance. Better to discuss about it on the Meta-Battledome and move on to another character?


Are people legit using Ichigo's inner world bullshit as time stop resistance? Really ? There's nothing to discuss about that type of shit .


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 12, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Are people legit using Ichigo's inner world bullshit as time stop resistance? Really ? There's nothing to discuss about that type of shit


Nope, it was a joke, even though is a legit time stop, it was never used again or relevant in any way.


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## GregSteve (Apr 12, 2022)

A whole verse of haxxed ftl characters against a statue I wonder who wins

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 13, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> If you aren't going to read the thread then I'm done talking to you.



Don't be a clown and at least try to back up your argument 




TrueG 37 said:


> Are people legit using Ichigo's inner world bullshit as time stop resistance? Really ? There's nothing to discuss about that type of shit .



Is about the actual timestop, time acceleration, and time BFR that Aizen is immune against.





Voyeur said:


> Except in the following chapter Kenpachi admits he's in a constant state of release on purpose.



He isn't a constant release type, that doesn't actually exists.




Bad Wolf said:


> To be precise about the reiatsu stuff.
> In chapter 623 is specified that "spiritual pressure springs eternally" so it's true that's a passive thing but that's "as long as their heart continues beating". I don't know BC or this specific time stop, but it can stop the heart it should work



That mostly refers to being alive, given Aizen got bisected and his torso dusted but that didn't stop his reiatsu or kill him. He is in prison because there's no way to kill him in Bleach.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 13, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> A whole verse of haxxed ftl characters against a statue I wonder who wins


Tis a damn mystery   . Didn't you know that Aizen was secretly universal ++++ ftl and resistant to time stop even though he isn't . He was actually at -300% full power when he fought Ichigo.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Don't be a clown and at least try to back up your argument
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So far all anyone has brought up is the cleaner. Which isn't time stop and is barely even time resistance, certainly not to the bullshit  extent Julius pulls off, Ichigo nulling a hado spell that distorts time and space which also isn't time stop resistance or anything really. And a dude who didn't use a time related power that he had, which means fuck all.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 13, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> So far all anyone has brought up is the cleaner. Which isn't time stop and is barely even time resistance, certainly not to the bullshit extent Julius pulls off, Ichigo nulling a hado spell that distorts time and space which also isn't time stop resistance or anything really. And a dude who didn't use a time related power that he had, which means fuck all.



The cleaner is equal or better than Julius on account of BFRing while also aging the target millions of years by merely touching the thing, Aizen was completely unaffected by that.

Tessai didn't use his timestop because Aizen would just ignore that like he did everything else up until he was de powered, there's no need to specifically say the name of every technique that doesn't work when you have Isshin and Urahara saying that there's nothing to do because the strength difference is too great.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 13, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The cleaner is equal or better than Julius on account of BFRing while also aging the target millions of years by merely touching the thing, Aizen was completely unaffected by that.


He didn't even touch the damn thing. He just blew it apart with his spirit energy/pressure whatever. Logically he shouldn't even get anything now that I think about it. 

>Its better than Julius 

It really isn't but honestly it doesn't even matter. It does nothing for timestop, timeloops etc. All shit that Julius can casually do with the flick of his wrist. All shit that Aizen has no defense against.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Tessai didn't use his timestop because Aizen would just ignore that like he did everything else up until he was de powered, there's no need to specifically say the name of every technique that doesn't work when you have Isshin and Urahara saying that there's nothing to do because the strength difference is too great.


Wouldn't of hurt the poor bastard to fucking try (well it would but whatever). Strength difference didn't matter for other techniques against people like Uwack so my only conclusions are Kubo's fucking inconsistent and straight up retcons his own shit when it suits his whims or Tessai is a fucking idiot who didn't even try to come up with a counter measure. I'm a petty bastard so I'll just say both .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 13, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The cleaner is equal or better than Julius on account of BFRing while also aging the target millions of years by merely touching the thing, Aizen was completely unaffected by that.


I would say that's different stuff. You could make a point for being resistant to time-related power but it's hard to say that's straight-forward better than a time stop


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Tessai didn't use his timestop because


We really don't know because. That's the problem. It could be useless against aizen, yes, but could also have other problems like a long casting time or some limitation for the combat functionality of the spell (for example, in D&D a time stop prevent you from damaging enemies)... or else. Best we've is resistance to some time-related powers


TrueG 37 said:


> He didn't even touch the damn thing. He just blew it apart with his spirit energy/pressure whatever. Logically he shouldn't even get anything now that I think about it.


Touching doesn't seems to be a requisite for that, even with the Ichigo squad no one was directly touched by it and they still got shifted in time


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 13, 2022)

Not to be that guy, but the Reiatsu of Aizen touching it isn’t that far off from Aizen himself touching it. Plus his attacks are all made of his Reiatsu.

Ergo, his attacks didn’t get yeeted through time by the cleaner. The same Reiatsu that made up those attacks is like a passive armour for him at the sheer volume and intensity he possesses it.

Don’t wank, but don’t go off the rails the other way.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 13, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> He didn't even touch the damn thing. He just blew it apart with his spirit energy/pressure whatever. Logically he shouldn't even get anything now that I think about it.
> 
> >Its better than Julius
> 
> It really isn't but honestly it doesn't even matter. It does nothing for timestop, timeloops etc. All shit that Julius can casually do with the flick of his wrist. All shit that Aizen has no defense against.



Touching it with reiatsu has the same effect, and the details of the time manipulation aren't that relevant as the fact Aizen has resistance towards that.

Would be different if Julius had shown to affect someone that can normally resist tie manipulation.





TrueG 37 said:


> Wouldn't of hurt the poor bastard to fucking try (well it would but whatever). Strength difference didn't matter for other techniques against people like Uwack so my only conclusions are Kubo's fucking inconsistent and straight up retcons his own shit when it suits his whims or Tessai is a fucking idiot who didn't even try to come up with a counter measure. I'm a petty bastard so I'll just say both .



Ywach was stronger than anyone else tho, only Ichigo with Bankai and Aizen are in his tier.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 13, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> I would say that's different stuff. You could make a point for being resistant to time-related power but it's hard to say that's straight-forward better than a time stop



True, but Julius also has an aging trough time acceleration technique, I was referring to that.




Bad Wolf said:


> We really don't know because. That's the problem. It could be useless against aizen, yes, but could also have other problems like a long casting time or some limitation for the combat functionality of the spell (for example, in D&D a time stop prevent you from damaging enemies)... or else. Best we've is resistance to some time-related powers



There's that too, but the reasoning behind transcendence was being unaffected by anything else, by Gin's explanation the cleaner should have been dangerous to Aizen because is not made of reishi or reiatsu but literal time, so powerlevel shouldn't matter, yet Aizen was unaffected.

Would be weird if a timestop from a spell based on reiatsu worked after something that is by definition above reiatsu failed.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 13, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> There's that too, but the reasoning behind transcendence was being unaffected by anything else, by Gin's explanation the cleaner should have been dangerous to Aizen because is not made of reishi or reiatsu but literal time, so powerlevel shouldn't matter, yet Aizen was unaffected.
> 
> Would be weird if a timestop from a spell based on reitsu worked after something that is by definition above reiatsu failed.


Yeah, there's something but Gin explanation is a bit lacking in details and doesn't tell that much and Tessai time stop is used off panel and never again, could even not be combat related.


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## GregSteve (Apr 13, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Tis a damn mystery   . Didn't you know that Aizen was secretly universal ++++ ftl and resistant to time stop even though he isn't . He was actually at -300% full power when he fought Ichigo.
> 
> So far all anyone has brought up is the cleaner. Which isn't time stop and is barely even time resistance, certainly not to the bullshit  extent Julius pulls off, Ichigo nulling a hado spell that distorts time and space which also isn't time stop resistance or anything really. And a dude who didn't use a time related power that he had, which means fuck all.


3 guys can literally erase him, 1 with time hax, 1 nullified magic and another can equalize his stats with him but he reitsu crushes


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## J★J♥ (Apr 13, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Where?
> 
> Nobody has given any counter-argument to that.
> 
> ...


That is literally reatsu crush. It works like a barrier there only because aizens chair limits how far his reatsu can reach from there. People would be crushed kilometers away without it.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 13, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> I would say that's different stuff. You could make a point for being resistant to time-related power but it's hard to say that's straight-forward better than a time stop
> 
> We really don't know because. That's the problem. It could be useless against aizen, yes, but could also have other problems like a long casting time or some limitation for the combat functionality of the spell (for example, in D&D a time stop prevent you from damaging enemies)... or else. Best we've is resistance to some time-related powers
> 
> Touching doesn't seems to be a requisite for that, even with the Ichigo squad no one was directly touched by it and they still got shifted in time


They got shifted through time (by a couple of days I think?) But they didn't get aged a million + years and die while getting booted or whatever happens when you or your spirit weapon actually directly touch the thing. In its debut it says Ichigo would have straight up died if he tried cutting it with his sword and the same would have happened to Orihime if she didn't use her barrier. Touching the thing or using your spirit weapon on it like an idiot and using spirit energy produces different effects for whatever reason from what I see. Not like Kubo will explain though   .


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> True, but Julius also has an aging trough time acceleration technique, I was referring to that.


That wasn't just what you and other people here were referring to man.
>"the details of the time manipulation aren't that relevant"- You

Come on now  . Time displacement resistance at best got turned into a resistance to time related everything including shit that Aizen's never resisted  .


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Touching it with reiatsu has the
> 
> Would be different if Julius had shown to affect someone that can normally resist tie manipulation.


That someone ain't Aizen.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Ywach was stronger than anyone else tho, only Ichigo with Bankai and Aizen are in his tier.


Then why the fuck were certain other characters able to affect him with their techs. Stronger reiatsu is supposed to always come out on top right?


GregSteve said:


> 3 guys can literally erase him, 1 with time hax, 1 nullified magic and another can equalize his stats with him but he reitsu crushes


And they're all faster than fucking light. I like how people going to bat for Bleach try to ignore this   . As if Aizen will even have the time to use meme Suigetsu before he's folded immediately . Can't even say Julius won't know about it since he can use his magic to see into the future and prep for incoming attacks .

Reactions: Funny 3


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 13, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Yeah, there's something but Gin explanation is a bit lacking in details and doesn't tell that much and Tessai time stop is used off panel and never again, could even not be combat related.



The explanation from Gin is based on the reason why Ichigo got to use Dangai as a time chamber, time there is 2000 times faster because is a pathway made of stacked time layers, that's the purple mud that makes the walls, the cleaner is also made of the same thing.

The line about the cleaner being made of reason is about the fact that is not a technique or made of reishi, should be imposible to use reiatsu vs that, because is literally made of time.




TrueG 37 said:


> hat wasn't just what you and other people here were referring to man.
> >"the details of the time manipulation aren't that relevant"- You
> 
> Come on now  . Time displacement resistance at best got turned into a resistance to time related everything including shit that Aizen's never resisted  .




Because I said Aizen has resistance to time manipulation equal or greater than Julius shown abilities based on how each thing accelerates time.





TrueG 37 said:


> They got shifted through time (by a couple of days I think?) But they didn't get aged a million + years and die while getting booted or whatever happens when you or your spirit weapon actually directly touch the thing. In its debut it says Ichigo would have straight up died if he tried cutting it with his sword and the same would have happened to Orihime if she didn't use her barrier. Touching the thing or using your spirit weapon on it like an idiot and using spirit energy produces different effects for whatever reason from what I see. Not like Kubo will explain though  .




Because of Urahara's tech, otherwise they would have been annihilated.





TrueG 37 said:


> That someone ain't Aizen.




Based on what?





TrueG 37 said:


> Then why the fuck were certain other characters able to affect him with their techs. Stronger reiatsu is supposed to always come out on top right?




When there's an big strength difference, both Aizen and Ichibei where somewhat close in strength when they used their abilities.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 13, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> They got shifted through time (by a couple of days I think?) But they didn't get aged a million + years and die while getting booted or whatever happens when you or your spirit weapon actually directly touch the thing. In its debut it says Ichigo would have straight up died if he tried cutting it with his sword and the same would have happened to Orihime if she didn't use her barrier. Touching the thing or using your spirit weapon on it like an idiot and using spirit energy produces different effects for whatever reason from what I see. Not like Kubo will explain though


That's not exactly correct, it was explained. Kōryū is the substances around that trap/entangle who get trapped, like Ishida was risking, using zanpakutou or else will get you trapped, but that alone seems just to stop people from passing/escaping the area.

But it's kototsu that has time-shifting/killing properties. Orihime barriers didn't get them killed because  and they got shifted.
So, touching it directly have a killing/worst effect rather than just using some kind of protection or attack, but even 


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The explanation from Gin is based on the reason why Ichigo got to use Dangai as a time chamber, time there is 2000 times faster because is a pathway made of stacked time layers, that's the purple mud that makes the walls, the cleaner is also made of the same thing.
> 
> The line about the cleaner being made of reason is about the fact that is not a technique or made of reishi, should be imposible to use reiatsu vs that, because is literally made of time.


It's the "being made of time" that's missing, as far I remember it's not something that got mentioned. Even the Kōryū is not exactly stated to be stacked time layers, just the Dangai itself


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 13, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> It's the "being made of time" that's missing, as far I remember it's not something that got mentioned. Even the Kōryū is not exactly stated to be stacked time layers, just the Dangai itself



Dangai itself is stated as a space surrounded by stacked time layers in the form of a current, the purple thing can be said to be the time current based on Gin dialogue about cleaner being made of reason, or made from a law of the world or nature.


> 2
> Aizen: Here comes the Cleaner.
> Gin: Well, damn. // We should get going, Captain Aizen. // ...Captain Aizen... / Shall we get going? Quickly? // That thing doesn't function in terms of reiatsu... it's more like a sheer force of nature. / It's not something you can simply defeat.
> 
> ...







We can say the current and the cleaner are the same because they look the same, purple mud, and share the same kanji in their name ,Koryu 拘流, _Wresting Flow_ and the Kototsu 拘突, _Wresting-Surge_


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 13, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> That's not exactly correct, it was explained. Kōryū is the substances around that trap/entangle who get trapped, like Ishida was risking, using zanpakutou or else will get you trapped, but that alone seems just to stop people from passing/escaping the area.
> 
> But it's kototsu that has time-shifting/killing properties. Orihime barriers didn't get them killed because  and they got shifted.
> So, touching it directly have a killing/worst effect rather than just using some kind of protection or attack, but even


Ngl I almost forgot about the Urahara's technology bullshit. Even taking this face value though it's just time displacement resistance. Which is a small part of what Julius can do.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because I said Aizen has resistance to time manipulation equal or greater than Julius shown abilities based on how each thing accelerates time.


Julius's shown abilities:

>Can stop people and objects in time.
Q:Has Aizen dealt with abilities that straight up stop time. Not put people years in time but flat out stopped it?
A: No he hasn't

>Can trap people in time loops

Q: Has Aizen dealt with this type of ability
A: No he hasn't

>Can see into the future and prep shit

Q: Has Aizen dealt with this type of ability
A: No he hasn't

> Can heavily age a person to their deaths
Q: Has Aizen dealt with this type of ability
A: #probably  

>Can move at speeds faster than fucking light

Q: can Aizen compete with that level of speed

A: lol not even fucking close

Out of all of his time related abilities he has resistance to literally one of them and can't do Jackshit to prevent anything else because they're different abilities and the Black Clover verse in general is too damn fast for Bleach to measure up to.  Thems the breaks . His resistance to time manipulation isn't greater or equal to Julius's abilities, its straight up nonexistent more than it isn't (literally just one). He just has resistance to one of many things he can do with his magic and he can't do anything to stop him because Julius may as well be Quicksilver in the X men movies compared to Aizen doing his best statue impression.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because of Urahara's tech, otherwise they would have been annihilated.



Ah Yes the ultimate plotkai. Urahara's tech . Shit just reminds me of one of many reasons why I fell off of Bleach .


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Based on what?


Based on lack of(and by "lack" I mean straight up nonexistent) feats  . Time displacement isn't stopping time, looping time etc., you can't just give characters abilities that they don't have and show no reason to have. You're trying to give Aizen (and Ichigo for others) a general broad resistance to time manipulation when he's only shown resistance to displacement at best.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> When there's an big strength difference, both Aizen and Ichibei where somewhat close in strength when they used their abilities.


Inconsistencies? In MY BLEACH ?!!!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 13, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Julius's shown abilities:
> 
> >Can stop people and objects in time.
> Q:Has Aizen dealt with abilities that straight up stop time. Not put people years in time but flat out stopped it?
> ...



Sure but of those things the only one that doesn't exist in Bleach is timeloops but even that is still just time manipulation which Aizen is resistant against.

Being fast and seeing the future is good except he can't get close to Aizen who has ways to deal with that difference, either with big AoE spells or increasing gravity.

Then there's the fact he doesn't need to release KS anymore, as long as he knows Julius is watching him he can use his illusion.





TrueG 37 said:


> Based on lack of(and by "lack" I mean straight up nonexistent) feats  . Time displacement isn't stopping time, looping time etc., you can't just give characters abilities that they don't have and show no reason to have. You're trying to give Aizen (and Ichigo for others) a general broad resistance to time manipulation when he's only shown resistance to displacement at best.



Timestop does exist in Bleach and there's no reason to believe that would work when the cleaner which is superior by definition failed.

Yes, resistance does apply in generally broad terms, same as we equate all forms of energy in here, else everyone could getaway with arguing any hax as absolute based on not being the exact same across different works.





TrueG 37 said:


> Inconsistencies? In MY BLEACH ?!!!



More like the characters in the last arc never reached Aizen tier except Ywach.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 13, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Dangai itself is stated as a space surrounded by stacked time layers in the form of a current, the purple thing can be said to be the time current based on Gin dialogue about cleaner being made of reason, or made from a law of the world or nature.


"the purple thing" is said to be Kōryū and the point is exactly this, when it's said that thing to be "time current"? They described it a few times, but they never called it time current or else, as far I remember.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> We can say the current and the cleaner are the same because they look the same, purple mud,


Can we say that? They're pretty different, one is just a "mud-like" substance and the other is like a living being and they've different properties.


TrueG 37 said:


> Ngl I almost forgot about the Urahara's technology bullshit. Even taking this face value though it's just time displacement resistance. Which is a small part of what Julius can do.


Oh I don't know about Julius/Black clover, I can't argue much about that. I can just reply for some bleach-feats



TrueG 37 said:


> >Can see into the future and prep shit
> 
> Q: Has Aizen dealt with this type of ability
> A: No he hasn't


Well, he messed up with Bach precognition, which isn't quite bad given that he can see into multiple possible futures and even manipulate that


TrueG 37 said:


> > Can heavily age a person to their deaths
> Q: Has Aizen dealt with this type of ability
> A: #probably


I guess it depends how much he can age people.
Even because Aizen is supposed to be immortal even by shinigami standards, implied to survive a sentence of 18.000+ years were they even point out that he's immortal.

For the others point I don't see much else to say


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 13, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> "the purple thing" is said to be Kōryū and the point is exactly this, when it's said that thing to be "time current"? They described it a few times, but they never called it time current or else, as far I remember.
> 
> Can we say that? They're pretty different, one is just a "mud-like" substance and the other is like a living being and they've different properties.
> 
> ...


Julius basically has super respira, he can age trees to dust in an instant and age people so far that not even bones are left. And thats all incredibly casual for him and spammable, and it technically makes him stronger the more he uses it since some of his other techs use the stolen time to function


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 13, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Julius basically has super respira, he can age trees to dust in an instant and age people so far that not even bones are left. And thats all incredibly casual for him and spammable, and it technically makes him stronger the more he uses it since some of his other techs use the stolen time to function


Super respira in what way? And It would important to ask what's the usual lifespan of the people he aged
But honestly I don't really think that will work on this Aizen


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## Top59 (Apr 13, 2022)

There is a forbidden Kidō that stops an individual's time. 


Depends on how look at it, Hogyoku should be able to adapt to that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 14, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Super respira in what way? And It would important to ask what's the usual lifespan of the people he aged
> But honestly I don't really think that will work on this Aizen


Super Respira in that his is instant and can easily age things thousands of years with contact, are spammable and fast as fuck


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## Voyeur (Apr 14, 2022)

>the usual suspect still going

Just take your L and go dude. It's embarrassing at this point.


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## BossKitten (Apr 14, 2022)

Edward Nygma said:


> I'm with BossKitten on this one (mostly).
> 
> Aizen's passive reiatsu is a pretty solid counter to a speed advantage. Especially if BC hasn't seen any serious upgrades to their DC.
> 
> ...



You're explaining Shinigami Aizen's KS. EOS Aizen's KS works once you look at him which is what happened to Bach once he he looked at Aizen while strapped to his chair. This is due to him now being one with his Zan, so there is no longer a need to see his release.


Voyeur said:


> ..what? Having broken abilities that don't necessarily have raw firepower does make you powerful. What are you talking about? Nobody's arguing that BC is on power pure damage wise to Bleach and Naruto, it's the abilities in the universe that make it a threat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know what makes BCverse a threat. I literally outlined it in another post; however, Aizen is a bad matchup specifically. There's only about 4 bad matchups and Aizen is one of them. 

Aizen's effect on the cleaner and Ichigo's effect on Black coffin shows that their raw power allows them to effect time and space abilities from weaker opponents. That gives them a feat where they interact with a time effect. Does Julius have a feat where he has to deal with constant spiritual pressure? If not then there is more working for Aizen than against him.

You calling something CIS doesn't mean its CIS. Tessai would know that abilities won't work if the opponent is too strong. So would Urahara, who strategically used an ability that didn't work until Aizen's power dropped, showing that Aizen's level of power was too high for the ability of weaker characters to effect him... and that's coming from someone who scales to country-level, which is far more than Julius. 

Burden of proof works both ways. Show Julius's sphere could hold a being like Aizen.

Aizen is always releasing spiritual pressure, even while in the seals, so there's nothing for me to prove there. You have to prove that Julius can deal with the constant pressure. And lord help Julius if this is EOS Aizen without seals.

Lastly, KS.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 14, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> You're explaining Shinigami Aizen's KS. EOS Aizen's KS works once you look at him which is what happened to Bach once he he looked at Aizen while strapped to his chair. This is due to him now being one with his Zan, so there is no longer a need to see his release.


Won't lie. The Blood War is a complete blur. I legit don't even remember that. 

I guess I'll play devil's advocate and mention that being under the effect of KS isn't the same as being in an illusion. If Aizen is drastically slower, he may not have time to actually alter Julius' perception. Julius' senses would technically be under his control from the start, he just wouldn't have a chance to exert that control. 

Of course, for this to be a problem, Julius still needs to incapacitate Aizen. Either with his free opening move(s) or, at the very least, before Aizen can assert control with his first thought of the match. A thing I don't think Julius can do.   

Honestly, with the DC gap, "can Julius incapacitate Aizen before he thinks", is the whole match in a nutshell.


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## BossKitten (Apr 14, 2022)

Edward Nygma said:


> Won't lie. The Blood War is a complete blur. I legit don't even remember that.
> 
> I guess I'll play devil's advocate and mention that being under the effect of KS isn't the same as being in an illusion. If Aizen is drastically slower, he may not have time to actually alter Julius' perception. Julius' senses would technically be under his control from the start, he just wouldn't have a chance to exert that control.
> 
> ...



Julius's time sphere leaves the person aware and able to think. 

Honestly, Julisus's specific time stop ability is the issue here.


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 14, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Julius's time sphere leaves the person aware and able to think.
> 
> Honestly, Julisus's specific time stop ability is the issue here.


They are still slowed significantly, iirc. 

With Aizen already at a serious speed disadvantage, I don't doubt that Julius can land his spheres. It also seems likely that they would delay the proper activation of KS even longer. But *A)* I don't think Julius' spheres will survive contact with Aizen's reiatsu, and *B) *even if they did, what is he going to do with those extra couple moves it buys? He's not aging Aizen to death. 10 years / second is still a couple of minutes to reach 1000 years. It's just not going to happen.


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## BossKitten (Apr 14, 2022)

Edward Nygma said:


> They are still slowed significantly, iirc.
> 
> With Aizen already at a serious speed disadvantage, I don't doubt that Julius can land his spheres. It also seems likely that they would delay the proper activation of KS even longer. But *A)* I don't think Julius' spheres will survive contact with Aizen's reiatsu, and *B) *even if they did, what is he going to do with those extra couple moves it buys? He's not aging Aizen to death. 10 years / second is still a couple of minutes to reach 1000 years. It's just not going to happen.



Yeah, Aizen is at a serious speed disadvantage, but like you pointed out, there's not much Julius can do with the borrowed time. Shinigami already live thousands of years (maybe longer based on Ichibei and Oetsu), and the hog makes Aizen immortal. So even if Julius could speed up time, it would do nothing. Julius doesn't have the fire power to do anything to him either, which is another issue. It's only a matter of time before KS kicks in, and once it does, he'll get the win.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 14, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because they look the same, are named the same, function as the time current would and are all but spelled out to be that time current and to be the same thing.


We already talked about the same exact thing. They've not the same name, they don't have the same function (Koryu don't have any time related property) and they're not the same stuff.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> of another unmentioned rule of reality being embodied by the cleaner and having time powers


Because it's like this. Kototsu and the Dangai have time-related attributes, the Koryu don't. It was talked about it many times, by different characters and as far I remember no one stated any time related stuff about it. If you have something about it you can end this discussion by posting it, otherwise it's useless for the discussion... Well, it's already out of the scope of the discussion, given that no one had any meaning interaction with the Koryu.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The point of Dangai is to be used as av time machine for Ichigo's power up.


That is a plot point, for that specific moment in the story, with that specific circumstance and the Koryu had nothing to do with it. On the opposite, it was kept away.

Anyway, I opened a thread for talk about stuff like this,


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 14, 2022)

Can't wait for the totally fair Guilty Gear vs Bleach topic  next . Nibbas are on their way with the belch wank recently .

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Voyeur (Apr 14, 2022)

So  in summary this thread has gone from: the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!  ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GregSteve (Apr 14, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Can't wait for the totally fair Guilty Gear vs Bleach topic  next . Nibbas are on their way with the belch wank recently .


Sol has no reitsu gg

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 14, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> Sol has no reitsu gg


Sol cant hit a shinigami gg

Reactions: Funny 4


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 14, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> So  in summary this thread has gone from: the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!  ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!


Umm. At least no one tried to argue universal Bleach   . Only some people here tried to argue for characters being faster than the speed force in other threads- Oh wait that's even worse .


OneSimpleAnime said:


> Sol cant hit a shinigami gg


"That Black hole he punched would get swatted away by Ichigo. It was smaller man."- Belch fans

Reactions: Funny 2


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 14, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> You haven't addressed anything. All you're doing is talking out your ass like you always do and are trying to get the last word in. Dumbass.
> 
> You haven't brought up any other examples of Aizen having resistance to being time stopped other than the cleaner claim which got debunked.
> 
> ...



Nah, you said a bunch of stupid things like Aizen needing to activate his reiatsu, or that the cleaner isn't time manipulation, then got BTFO and you still whining about that, which is why you couldn't quote anyone arguing against any of that  





Voyeur said:


> So in summary this thread has gone from: the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!! ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!



Well summarized because all of that happens to be true, except reacting to Julius but that's why the hogyoku and KS are fused 





Bad Wolf said:


> Because it's like this. Kototsu and the Dangai have time-related attributes, the Koryu don't. It was talked about it many times, by different characters and as far I remember no one stated any time related stuff about it. If you have something about it you can end this discussion by posting it, otherwise it's useless for the discussion... Well, it's already out of the scope of the discussion, given that no one had any meaning interaction with the Koryu.



The Koryu is the very reasoning for why time goes 2000 times faster in the Dangai, again to argue they aren't the same and they aren't time means ignoring all the context and hints given about that just because is not spelled out.


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## Voyeur (Apr 14, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> -snip-





Voyeur said:


> So  in summary this thread has gone from: the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!  ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!





Concession accepted.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 15, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The Koryu is the very reasoning for why time goes 2000 times faster in the Dangai, again to argue they aren't the same and they aren't time means ignoring all the context and hints given about that just because is not spelled out.


If it's the Koryu, post the evidence for it


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## BossKitten (Apr 15, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> So  in summary this thread has gone from: the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!  ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!



Nah,

- Time stop can work depending on the user, like Shinra from Fire Force, which I gave as an example.
- The issue with Julius's time stop is that it works based on him keeping his opponent contained in a small sphere, which you'd have to prove he can do, but can't.
- Aizen DOES NOT NEED to draw out KS BECAUSE it TAKES EFFECT SIMPLY BY LOOKING AT HIM.
- Aizen doesn't need to have the reaction time here because KS, being far, far, above the BCverse fire-power, regen, + immortality
- Aizen is literally the only guy in Bleach that still uses "LAWL REIATSU CRUSH" in the final arc to kill off the Soul King pieces...you know, the things that other island - country-level people had a hard time dealing with.


*The BC argument up until this point has been:*

-But time stop should work, even though there's nothing to suggest Julius's sphere's can contain Aizen.
-KS shouldn't work because Julius is faster
- and Even though Aizen is immortal Julius wouldn't have to worry about getting outlasted, simply because.


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## BossKitten (Apr 15, 2022)

Just got up to date with Black Clover...

Asta himself has a limit to his anti-magic. Not once was he able to completely cut off Luci's magic ability, and when he was laid out by Luci's gravity, he needed Yami and the Black Bulls VC to save him since he didn't have enough anti-magic left to coat his body. This shows that everyone in BC has a limit to how far they can push their abilities and even Asta reached that limit while fighting what would be a fodder in raw power compared to the HST.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 15, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Just got up to date with Black Clover...
> 
> Asta himself has a limit to his anti-magic. Not once was he able to completely cut off Luci's magic ability, and when he was laid out by Luci's gravity, he needed Yami and the Black Bulls VC to save him since he didn't have enough anti-magic left to coat his body. This shows that everyone in BC has a limit to how far they can push their abilities and even Asta reached that limit while fighting what would be a fodder in raw power compared to the HST.


Okay, Asta isnt in this thread lol

Yami’s spatial slash has only been diverted by gravity lol


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## GregSteve (Apr 15, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Okay, Asta isnt in this thread lol
> 
> Yami’s spatial slash has only been diverted by gravity lol


Nah my dude it's the whole verse vs Aizen it's worse than you think


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 15, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> Nah my dude it's the whole verse vs Aizen it's worse than you think


Oh hes fucked, he gets instadrained by the bulls or magna just fucks him over lol

way too much hax here

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 15, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Okay, Asta isnt in this thread lol
> 
> Yami’s spatial slash has only been diverted by gravity lol



People here thought Asta didn't have a limit to what he could negate, similar to how they're pretending Julius's time-stop doesn't have a limit. The last chapter shows that they all reach a limit, and pretty quickly based on their opponent. This works against Julius and lines up with what I've been saying.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 15, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> People here thought Asta didn't have a limit to what he could negate, similar to how they're pretending Julius's time-stop doesn't have a limit. The last chapter shows that they all reach a limit, and pretty quickly based on their opponent. This works against Julius and lines up with what I've been saying.


no, their magic isnt the same at all lmao


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## BossKitten (Apr 15, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> no, their magic isnt the same at all lmao



LOL  

They all have limits, especially Julius. He did what he did against Lict thanks to storing up his magic. It took everything for him to reverse Lict's attack, which shows he has a limit as well. 

Julius, Yami, Vannesa and Asta have all shown that they have limits, and they're the 4 most important people in BC to secure a win over someone like Aizen. There's nothing in the BCverse at this point that would suggest they can do anything here at the moment. 

This is similar to how Fire Force was weaker not to long ago, but now they'd stomp Bleach. BC might become stronger than Bleach in the future, but that's not the case today.


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## BossKitten (Apr 15, 2022)

This is from Julius's Wiki:

*"Immense Magic Power*: As the Magic Emperor and the strongest Magic Knight of the Clover Kingdom, Julius possesses an immense amount of magic power. The true nature of his magic is "stealing time" from those he targets. The time he has stolen is stored away as reserves and he can use that power anytime he desires. His vast levels of magic power allows him to perform a  that covers the entirety of the Clover Kingdom.* Before his death, Julius had thirteen years worth of time saved up.*"

Julius at his best only had 13 years worth of time stored up. That's a clear limit and it's going to be interacting with an immortal being with reiatsu that can effect time and space.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> LOL
> 
> They all have limits, especially Julius. He did what he did against Lict thanks to storing up his magic. It took everything for him to reverse Lict's attack, which shows he has a limit as well.
> 
> ...


Yall are so thirsty for this shit youll do anything for it lol


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yall are so thirsty for this shit youll do anything for it lol



The only thirsty people here are the BC team. You're literally ignoring known limitations in BC to pretend that they have a chance here. They have speed, and only speed. 

Yami slices through dimensions. Fullbringer Ichigo tier can destroy pocket dimensions with little to no effort.

Julius has small time spheres and a limited amount of magic. Aizen's reiatsu effect time and space + is constantly producing more power than what BC has been shown to produce. 

Asta can negate magic, yet reached his limit against Luci... who only used punches and gravity. The only thing he had going for him was his overall raw power, which is fodder tier by HST standards. 

Nobody in BC has a counter for KS, Aizen's immortality, or his raw power. If I missed something, let me know. The only hope was Julius.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Okay, so it's time to end this thread, and its crazy how disingenuous Black Clover fans seem to be. 

The following is from the fight with Luci, a devil who's power is GRAVITY. Not any type of reality warping, or anything crazy; just gravity. In his fight with the captains, it is made clear that raw power cancels out all forms of magic, as there isn't a single captain who's abilities aren't negated do to the power difference (Though Yami could mark him):























None of the magic worked because of the huge gap in magic power between Luci and the captains. This shows that raw power can in fact cancel the effect of abilities, even by BC standards. So both Bleach and BC use the same logic of: Massive power gap > abilities used by weaker people.

Lastly, Aizen's reaitsu crush killed creatures that island - country level fighters had a hard time dealing with while using physical attacks. Luci, who is far, far weaker produced enough power to bring all the magic knights to the floor and the captains were only able to fight thanks to being assisted by a special magic ability:






All of that adds to my point that they wouldn't be able to do anything thanks to Aizen's spiritual pressure. So yes, a massive raw power gap counters their haxx abilities, and "LAWL reiatsu crush"

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 16, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> Nah my dude it's the whole verse vs Aizen it's worse than you think


Ngl I legit forgot about that.  Why in the name of fuck is this debate going on   ? Bleach gets steamrolled here.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sabotage (Apr 16, 2022)

Dorothy should be as fast as Yami. She BFRs him into Glamour World gg


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Dorothy should be as fast as Yami. She BFRs him into Glamour World gg



Except she can't as shown with Luci since the raw power gap is too big.


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## Sabotage (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Except she can't as shown with Luci since the war power gap is too big.


Luci is able to negate spells, even ones that can BFR you.

Aizen, who has never shown the ability to do this, can resist BFR because he's powerful? How many more abilities are you going to give him that he doesn't have?


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Luci is able to negate spells, even ones that can BFR you.
> 
> Aizen, who has never shown the ability to do this, can resist BFR because he's powerful? How many more abilities are you going to give him that he doesn't have?



Luci's power is gravity, not spell negation. The only explanation we get is that he has far more magic power than everyone else, which is why they can't do anything to him.


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## Sabotage (Apr 16, 2022)

Aizen vs Legends Sidious.

Obviously Aizen. What Palps gonna do to his passive aura?


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Aizen vs Legends Sidious.
> 
> Obviously Aizen. What Palps gonna do to his passive aura?



The funny thing about all of this is that I'm using more BC facts than the BC supporters. 

You guys have no actual counter, so you just make jokes to make it seem like you have an actual point, when you don't. 

All of this is also funny because I also have a thread where 5 Fire Force characters take on the HST (Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece).


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Oh, and here is proof that Luci doesn't have magic negation. Nothing worked due to raw power:







Thanks to the counter magic, Yami's darkness, Fire Bae's constantly increasing magic as she fights, and Asta's anti-magic, Luci admits that it is possible for humans to kill him.  The other attacks didn't work because of a power gap, not some made up magic negation.


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## Sabotage (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> The funny thing about all of this is that I'm using more BC facts than the BC supporters.
> 
> You guys have no actual counter, so you just make jokes to make it seem like you have an actual point, when you don't.


No. Your arguments consist of giving Aizen resistance to abilities he's never shown. "Well this much weaker guy in BC has shown the ability to resist BFR, so Aizen can resist BFR" Even though that's a feat for Luci, and nothing suggest Aizen could do the same.

I guess Raditz can resist all the hax in BC. He's far more powerful than anyone in Bleach, and ki and reiatsu are pretty similar 
 


BossKitten said:


> All of this is also funny because I also have a thread where 5 Fire Force characters take on the HST (Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece).


You made a stomp thread. Good for you


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> No. Your arguments consist of giving Aizen resistance to abilities he's never shown. "Well this much weaker guy in BC has shown the ability to resist BFR, so Aizen can resist BFR" Even though that's a feat for Luci, and nothing suggest Aizen could do the same.
> 
> I guess Raditz can resist all the hax in BC. He's far more powerful than anyone in Bleach, and ki and reiatsu are pretty similar
> 
> ...



Now this is getting sad. 

The Black Clover manga itselfl used Luci's "overwhelming" magic power as the only reason why nothing worked. You're making things up that go against the manga at this point.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 16, 2022)

"Anti magic reached its limit through gravity magic and punches"

......no it didn't   . Asta couldn't move for a while because he got punched in the face and nearly got k.o'd. Pages before that and the chapter afterwards have him move around so long as his union is fully active. Its literally a major plot point that they have to rely on him because of it.


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## Sabotage (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Now this is getting sad.
> 
> The Black Clover manga itselfl used *Luci's "overwhelming" magic power as the only reason why nothing worked*. You're making things up that go against the manga at this point.


Yes.....and how does this translate to Aizen not getting bfr'd or stopped in time


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> "Anti magic reached its limit through gravity magic and punches"
> 
> ......no it didn't   . Asta couldn't move for a while because he got punched in the face and nearly got k.o'd. Pages before that and the chapter afterwards have him move around so long as his union is fully active. Its literally a major plot point that they have to rely on him because of it.



"I can't cloak us in *ENOUGH ANTIMAGIC TO CANCEL OUT THIS GRAVITY*"


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Yes.....and how does this translate to Aizen not getting bfr'd or stopped in time



I shows that everyone has a cap to the amount of power their abilities can and can't work on. Aizen is far beyond those limits in addition to his constant spiritual pressure, reiatsu that engages with time and space, and KS.

If they can't contain or hurt Luci because of his raw power, none of them can do anything to Aizen.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> "I can't cloak us in *ENOUGH ANTIMAGIC TO CANCEL OUT THIS GRAVITY*"


I clearly said  when the union is fully active. That page clearly shows that it ran out since at the moment  they only had 5 seconds  left of the form.  That has nothing to do with anti magic meeting its hax kryptonite, its them not being able to use it to cloak his body.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> I clearly said  when the union is fully active. That page clearly shows that it ran out since at the moment  they only had 5 seconds  left of the form.  That has nothing to do with anti magic meeting its hax kryptonite, its them not being able to use it to cloak his body.



Is there a limit to anti-magic, yes or no?


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Is there a limit to anti-magic, yes or no?


For magic in series its only limit is how long Asta can keep it up. At that exact moment he only had 5 seconds left and is tapped out for 30 minutes until he regains the form.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> For magic in series its only limit is how long Asta can keep it up. At that exact moment he only had 5 seconds left and is tapped out for 30 minutes until he regains the form.



The form has a 5 second limit, I'm asking about the amount of anti-magic Asta can produce.


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## Sabotage (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> I shows that everyone has a cap to the amount of power their abilities can and can't work on. Aizen is far beyond those limits in addition to his constant spiritual pressure, *reiatsu that engages with time and space*, and KS.
> 
> If they can't contain or hurt Luci because of his raw power, none of them can do anything to Aizen.


 

When has Aizen's reiatsu passively effected time and space, in a way that makes him immune to time and spatial manipulation?


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> The form has a 5 second limit, I'm asking about the amount of anti-magic Asta can produce.


The unite form doesn't have a 5 second limit. It has a 5 minute limit. Asta only had 5 seconds left at the time and needed to wrap things up. The amount depends on Liebe and like always they'd have to wait 30 minutes to use any of their forms again.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> When has Aizen's reiatsu passively effected time and space, in a way that makes him immune to time and spatial manipulation?


Do you belive that Julius is somehow the only person in Black Clover that won't have an cap on the amount of power he can contain?



TrueG 37 said:


> The unite form doesn't have a 5 second limit. It has a 5 minute limit. Asta only had 5 seconds left at the time and needed to wrap things up. The amount depends on Liebe and like always they'd have to wait 30 minutes to use any of their forms again.



I understand this. I'm asking if Liebe has an overall limit to his anti-magic. That's what all of this is going to come down to.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Do you belive that Julius is somehow the only person in Black Clover that won't have an cap on the amount of power he can contain?
> 
> 
> 
> I understand this. I'm asking if Liebe has an overall limit to his anti-magic. That's what all of this is going to come down to.


I don't get what you mean by limit though. If its magic type then no. None seen in the manga anyways. It erodes all forms of magic no matter what type it is.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> I don't get what you mean by limit though. If its magic type then no. None seen in the manga anyways. It erodes all forms of magic no matter what type it is.



What I mean is that Liebe can negate any type of magic, but can he negate any amount?

When being held down by the gravity, he himself couldn't get up, not just Asta. 

When their fused form cut Luci, he still had access to his magic. 

When Luci grabbed Asta's fused form's blade, his gravity was still effecting all of the royal knights, meaning it was never fully negated by anything Asta did regardless of his form.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> What I mean is that Liebe can negate any type of magic, but can he negate any amount?


Yes. If the amount of mana Lucifero had was a problem they wouldn't have been able to move. Asta mentioned at the start of their fight that it doesn't matter how powerful his magic is.


BossKitten said:


> When being held down by the gravity, he himself couldn't get up, not just Asta.


He was drained and couldn't use it to cloak them anymore. The other panels have him in his small familiar state which happens when Asta has used up all of his anti magic. The last union drained him. It's that simple. 



BossKitten said:


> When their fused form cut Luci, he still had access to his magic.


Because Anti magic doesn't just get rid of magic forever if it touches  you  . The amount of magic he negates is limited to what he can cut with his sword and initially they were barely able to make his finger bleed. When he managed to slice his body it did negate his gravity for a while. He just activated it again despite his injuries. 



BossKitten said:


> When Luci grabbed Asta's fused form's blade, his gravity was still effecting all of the royal knights, meaning it was never fully negated by anything Asta did regardless of his form.


His gravity had no effect.....on Asta because his body is cloaked in anti magic. His advantage was that he's stronger and more durable so Asta couldn't really cut him. I think  you're a little confused on what anti magic does tbh.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Yes. If the amount of mana Lucifero had was a problem they wouldn't have been able to move. Asta mentioned at the start of their fight that it doesn't matter how powerful his magic is.
> 
> He was drained and couldn't use it to cloak them anymore. The other panels have him in his small familiar state *which happens when Asta has used up all of his anti magic.* The last union drained him. It's that simple.
> 
> ...



You literally proved my point without realizing it. 

The only thing I wanted was to prove that Asta has limitations like everyone else in BC. 

Asta being able to move while in his fused form is great and all, but the only thing it showed was that he could negate the gravity effect on his own body at that time. Luci's gravity being in effect while holding Asta's sword should not be a thing if Asta has no limit to the amount of power he could negate because all the magic in Luci should have been negated while holding Asta's sword.


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## Big Bob (Apr 16, 2022)

Julius stops Aizen infinitely since he's immortal.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Julius stops Aizen infinitely since he's immortal.



Lol, prime Julius only has 13 years of time stored up and it took everything he had to reverse one clover kingdom level attack, which also shows a raw power limit.


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

So are we back to the "Aizen can react to FTL characters argument cause he's sub relativistic" or "Aizen has resistance to abilities even though he's never demonstrated it in the manga" arguments?


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> So are we back to the "Aizen can react to FTL characters argument cause he's sub relativistic" or "Aizen has resistance to abilities even though he's never demonstrated it in the manga" arguments?



When did I say anything about him reacting to FTL?

We're talking about how BC magic has limitations to the amount of power that they can deal with. You know, like their own manga shows.


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## Big Bob (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Lol, prime Julius only has 13 years of time stored up and it took everything he had to reverse one clover kingdom level attack, which also shows a raw power limit.


Julius steals time, Aizen has infinite time since he's immortal, Julius has infinite time to keep him trapped.

Put a fork in him, he's done.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Julius steals time, Aizen has infinite time since he's immortal, Julius has infinite time to keep him trapped.
> 
> Put a fork in him, he's done.



Show a single time where he's stolen time mid-battle against someone with time distortion energy/power.


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Show a single time where he's stolen time mid-battle against *someone with time distortion energy/power.*


Except Aizen has never shown this. Try again.


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## Big Bob (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Show a single time where he's stolen time mid-battle against someone with time distortion energy/power.


Show a single time where Aizen has resisted a direct time stop.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Show a single time where Aizen has resisted a direct time stop.



The burden of proof is on you. I've already showed:

-Raw power in Black Clover negates abilities from weaker people (which is massively in Aizen's favor)

-Aizen's reiatsu release is passive and can effect time and space.

So you have to prove that against all Bleach and Black clover logic, Julius would some how be an exception to the rule.


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

You didn't prove anything about Aizen having having resistance to time stop.


Voyeur said:


> So  in summary this thread has gone from: the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!  ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!


We are now here:

*AIZEN HAS RESISTANCE TO TIME STOP EVEN THOUGH HES NEVER SHOWN IT!!!*

_Lawl _


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> You didn't prove anything about Aizen having having resistance to time stop.
> 
> We are now here:
> 
> ...



So you're pretending Julius has no limits now? Got it.

All of Julius's time had to be used for Lict's attack and Luci showed that raw power negates magic abilities. There's more working against Julius than for him.


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## Big Bob (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> The burden of proof is on you. I've already showed:
> 
> -Raw power in Black Clover negates abilities from weaker people (which is massively in Aizen's favor)
> 
> ...


Devil magic is different to normal magic in the first place. Only special magic can even fight it so not like Aizen scales to that since he isn't a devil.

There is no proof of his reiatsu being able to resist time stop so that's pointless.

And you have already posted a direct quote yourself saying that Julius' magic works by stealing time from others. Most people have limited time so that is where his limit would be but Aizen supposedly doesn't have that limit due to his immortality (not sure of the extent of it but being able to survive a 20k year sentence is a good indicator).


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

You got nothing. Got it. You haven't provided evidence that Aizen has resistance to time stop and are just resorting to whataboutism to discredit arguments bout Julius being able to relax with Aizen. It's the Entire verse against Aizen, so even IF Julius can't steal all of Aizen's time, he can hold Aizen down for everyone else to kill/incapacitate him. 

And just because you have time distortion abilities, it doesn't automatically mean you have resistance against them unless it's demonstrated. Jotaro time stopped Dio in JoJo even though Dio was consistently shown to time stop everyone else. So just because Dio had time stop he didn't show any feats resisting Jotaro's. 

Aizen loses. Deal with it.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Devil magic is different to normal magic in the first place. Only special magic can even fight it so not like Aizen scales to that since he isn't a devil.
> 
> There is no proof of his reiatsu being able to resist time stop so that's pointless.
> 
> And you have already posted a direct quote yourself saying that Julius' magic works by stealing time from others. Most people have limited time so that is where his limit would be but Aizen supposedly doesn't have that limit due to his immortality (not sure of the extent of it but being able to survive a 20k year sentence is a good indicator).



Falling back on "Devil Magic is different to normal magic" is no different than saying normal shinigami or people can't do anything to Aizen because he's a higher dimensional being.

Luci did everything he did due to a difference in raw power like the manga said.

I know what Julius's power is. Doesn't change the fact that he has a limit which scales to Lict's attack. That shows that his "time" is used up quicker based on what he's "stopping".



Voyeur said:


> You got nothing. Got it. You haven't provided evidence that Aizen has resistance to time stop and are just resorting to whataboutism to discredit arguments bout Julius being able to relax with Aizen. It's the Entire verse against Aizen, so even IF Julius can't steal all of Aizen's time, he can hold Aizen down for everyone else to kill/incapacitate him.
> 
> And just because you have time distortion abilities, it doesn't automatically mean you have resistance against them unless it's demonstrated. Jotaro time stopped Dio in JoJo even though Dio was consistently shown to time stop everyone else. So just because Dio had time stop he didn't show any feats resisting Jotaro's.
> 
> Aizen loses. Deal with it.



You're the one with nothing. Read the scans on page 6. Black Clover magic can do nothing when there is a massive power gap. That's according to their own manga.


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> You're the one with nothing. Read the scans on page 6. Black Clover magic can do nothing when there is a massive power gap. That's according to their own manga.


I'm not the one making bullshit claims about x having y abilities when x hasn't demonstrated it in the fiction it was printed on. You haven't brought a shred of evidence showing said abilities and now you're trying to argue that limits inside of a fiction apply to cross fictional debates because you say so. What's next? The Bount arc is canon too?


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> I'm not the one making bullshit claims about x having y abilities when x hasn't demonstrated it in the fiction it was printed on. You haven't brought a shred of evidence showing said abilities and now you're trying to argue that limits inside of a fiction apply to cross fictional debates because you say so. What's next? The Bount arc is canon too?



You're the one literally ignoring what the Black Clover manga shows and says to try and pull out a desperate win.

Now your argument is what, the power gap issue only applies in-verse?


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> You're the one literally ignoring what the Black Clover manga shows and says to try and pull out a desperate win.
> 
> Now your argument is what, the power gap issue only applies in-verse?


>"No, you!"

We're done here. Concession accepted.

Inb4 "CONCESSION ACCEPTED"


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

The cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!! ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!----->AIZEN HAS RESISTANCE TO TIME STOP EVEN THOUGH HES NEVER SHOWN IT!!!----_*-->THE LIMITS OF BLACK CLOVER PREVENT THEM FROM BEATING AIZEN. -----> NO  YOU!*_


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> >"No, you!"
> 
> We're done here. Concession accepted.
> 
> Inb4 "CONCESSION ACCEPTED"



Exactly, you have no point. 

As the Black Clover manga shows, they can't do anything if there is too much or a raw power gap. They get stomped.

The only hope they had was Julius and he needs to use up 13 years of magic (pretty much all of it) to stop an attack that rained on clover kingdom. 

Nice try though.


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Exactly, you have no point.
> 
> As the Black Clover manga shows, they can't do anything if there is too much or a raw power gap. They get stomped.
> 
> ...





Voyeur said:


> The cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!! ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!----->AIZEN HAS RESISTANCE TO TIME STOP EVEN THOUGH HES NEVER SHOWN IT!!!----_*-->THE LIMITS OF BLACK CLOVER PREVENT THEM FROM BEATING AIZEN. -----> NO  YOU!*_


Concession accepted.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> The cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!! ----> Aizen can draw out KS and react to a FTL character !!!------> LAWL REIATSU CRUSH -------> REIATSU IS PASSIVE AND JULIUS CANT DO ANYTHING!!! --------> the cleaner gives Aizen time manipulation resistance and time stop is useless cause they said so even though they never tried it!!!----->AIZEN HAS RESISTANCE TO TIME STOP EVEN THOUGH HES NEVER SHOWN IT!!!----_*-->THE LIMITS OF BLACK CLOVER PREVENT THEM FROM BEATING AIZEN. -----> NO  YOU!*_



1) Aizen DOES NOT NEED to draw out KS. His Zan is part of him and its activated by looking at him.

2) You keep saying that I'm saying Aizen can react to FTL people, when I've never said it. So stop the nonsense. 

3) I already said, early on TIME STOP CAN WORK ON AIZEN. The issue here is JULIUS'S SPECIFIC TIME STOP ABILITIES. 

You're acting like you can't read, which I know isn't the case.


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> 1) *Aizen DOES NOT NEED to draw out KS. His Zan is part of him and its activated by looking at him*.



No, it doesn't. It's activated by the command shatter. What's fucking next? Bakudos are passive abilities ? The manga directly contradicts you by saying that one can prevent the effects by touching the sword before it finishes activation. Chapter 414 pages 14-15.


BossKitten said:


> 2) You keep saying that I'm saying Aizen can react to FTL people, when I've never said it. So stop the nonsense.


Your arguments say otherwise.  Lawl



BossKitten said:


> 3) I already said, early on TIME STOP CAN WORK ON AIZEN. The issue here is JULIUS'S SPECIFIC TIME STOP ABILITIES.



No, you fucking didn't. You've spent 2 + fucking pages saying that he has resistance when he doesn't. Now you're resorting to lying?



BossKitten said:


> You're acting like you can't read, which I know isn't the case.


I'm not the one peddling bullshit, sorry.


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## BossKitten (Apr 16, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> No, it doesn't. It's activated by the command shatter. What's fucking next? Bakudos are passive abilities ?
> 
> Your arguments say otherwise.  Lawl
> 
> ...



1) This is EOS Aizen. The one that effected Bach while strapped to a chair in seals. Not shinigami Aizen.

2) Not a single time did I suggest Aizen wasn't at the speed disadvantage. That's just something you kept saying for no reason.

3) Go back and read. I said two time already if it was time-stop by someone like Shinra, then Aizen would be done for; however, Julius's specific time-stop is the issue. You probably ignored it while pretending I said he was FTL.

4) You're very much so "peddling bullshit" by ignoring both the Bleach manga and the Black Clover manga to fit your own made up narrative.


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## Voyeur (Apr 16, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> 1) This is EOS Aizen. The one that effected Bach while strapped to a chair in seals. Not shinigami Aizen.


Where does it say that he's in constant KS release?  I'll answer it for you. It doesn't. One of the main plot points in bleach is that Ichigo has never seen the KS. Which gives him the advantage of being able to beat Aizen. So guess what, you're fucking wrong.



BossKitten said:


> 2) Not a single time did I suggest Aizen wasn't at the speed disadvantage. That's just something you kept saying for no reason.



You're arguing that he even has a fucking chance to react.


BossKitten said:


> 3) Go back and read. I said two time already if it was time-stop by someone like Shinra, then Aizen would be done for; however, Julius's specific time-stop is the issue. You probably ignored it while pretending I said he was FTL.


So everyone else is wrong too? All the other posts that asked you to provide proof that Aizen has resistance to time stop?



BossKitten said:


> 4) You're very much so "peddling bullshit" by ignoring both the Bleach manga and the Black Clover manga to fit your own made up narrative.


I'm not the one making up bogus claims about Aizen that have no substance or are lying about my previous posts. So you are peddling bullshit.


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Where does it say that he's in constant KS release?  I'll answer it for you. It doesn't. One of the main plot points in bleach is that Ichigo has never seen the KS. Which gives him the advantage of being able to beat Aizen. So guess what, you're fucking wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) Bach was put under KS how?

2) Can you still move while being attacked by ants and flies?

3) You're avoiding the manga to create your own fanfic. The Black Clover limitations are in the manga. Read it.

4) Show me where I lied. I'm the only one who posted scans here. Black Clover can't do anything to someone with way more raw power as shown in the fight with Luci. You oddly enough keep pretending that it isn't a thing.


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## Voyeur (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> 1) Bach was put under KS how?


It was never addressed how Ywach was put under KS. So you can't make your own assumptions to fit your argument.



BossKitten said:


> 2) Can you still move while being attacked by ants and flies?



Not if you're time is stopped?


BossKitten said:


> 3) You're avoiding the manga to create your own fanfic. The Black Clover limitations are in the manga. Read it.


So everyone else who has read it is lying?



BossKitten said:


> 4) Show me where I lied. I'm the only one who posted scans here. Black Clover can't do anything to someone with way more raw power as shown in the fight with Luci. You oddly enough keep pretending that it isn't a thing.





BossKitten said:


> Also, he's still getting effected by KS just by looking at EOS Aizen.





BossKitten said:


> Aizen should be able to resist or effect time abilities given what he did to the cleaner.





BossKitten said:


> No claim about the cleaner has been debunked.
> 
> Ichigo destroying Black Coffin which also effects time and space backed up that being more powerful reitsu lets you effect time and space abilities with raw power.
> 
> ...


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## Voyeur (Apr 17, 2022)




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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> It was never addressed how Ywach was put under KS. So you can't make your own assumptions to fit your argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) Aizen is covered in seals and bound to a chair with no Zan, so clearly he didn't pull his zan out of the air and issue the scatter command while Bach sat there and watched.

2) Aizen should be able to "resist *or effect*"

3) Is everyone lying? Can't say that outright, could simply be a lack of  understand or oversight. That stuff happens all the time regardless of the manga in question. Doesn't change the facts of the manga though.


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## Voyeur (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> 1) Aizen is covered in seals and bound to a chair with no Zan, so clearly he didn't pull his zan out of the air and issue the scatter command while Bach sat there and watched.



Making assumptions on a plot hole made by the author is frowned upon. It was never addressed how Ywach was influenced under KS. So making your own shit up just because it fits your narrative doesn't make it canon or truth.




BossKitten said:


> 2) Aizen should be able to "resist *or effect*"



What is time resistance for 500 Alex?



BossKitten said:


> 3) Is everyone lying? Can't say that outright, could simply be a lack of  understand or oversight. That stuff happens all the time regardless of the manga in question. Doesn't change the facts of the manga though.


Again, it was never stated. So just because you say so doesn't mean it's true.


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Let's make all of this simple...

According to Black Clover none of the magic knights, including the Captains could stop Luci other than Asta. Why? Due to a sheer difference in magical power. That takes into account all forms of haxx:




Julius also needed to use 13 years of stored magic power to stop one attack from a much weaker opponent. So you tell me how none of this matters.


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Making assumptions on a plot hole made by the author is frowned upon. It was never addressed how Ywach was influenced under KS. So making your own shit up just because it fits your narrative doesn't make it canon or truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol, okay, so now you want to use plot hole as a defense  

So me saying that Aizen's reaitsu can effect time based abilities are the same as saying he can resist time-stop? 

Read the scans and tell me how you understand it.


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## Voyeur (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Lol, okay, so now you want to use plot hole as a defense



I'm not the one claiming that Aizen's Shikai some how fucking upgraded to a passive ability without evidence. And Aizen's statement that Ichigo not seeing the KS worked to his advantage by helping defeat Ywach directly refutes your claim that KS is passive because Ichigo would have then fallen under the spell of KS. 



BossKitten said:


> So me saying that Aizen's reaitsu can effect time based abilities are the same as saying he can resist time-stop?
> Read the scans and tell me how you understand it.



Where's the proof?


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> -Snip-



Read the Black Clover scans and tell me how you understand it.


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## Voyeur (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Let's make all of this simple...
> 
> According to Black Clover none of the magic knights, including the Captains could stop Luci other than Asta. Why? Due to a sheer difference in magical power. That takes into account all forms of haxx:
> 
> ...


What is plot induced stupidity for 500 Alex?


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

While were at it, how about you tell me about your thoughts about Julius having to use 13 years of stored time to counter an attack that was going to kill the Clover Kingdom's* population*.




*Why did he need 13 years worth of magic to stop the attack? Because of its overall power:*


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> What is plot induced stupidity for 500 Alex?



Lol, exactly. When you have to use PIS to justify your own no limit fallacies, you hit a sad spot.

But go ahead and ignore the Black Clover manga to help yourself feel better.


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## Sablés (Apr 17, 2022)

What even is this argument?

Reiatsu provides passive resistance towards space-time manipulation. Dimensional BFR can be broken by grabbing the space (Kenpachi vs Gremmy) broken altogether (Ichigo in Yukio's dimension) or spatial hax can be tanked (Gerard sustaining no damage from Hachi's space barriers). Barragan's time acceleration can be halted with spirit energy so stands to reason it can be stopped.

Now timestop? Has never been resisted in any capacity. No use bringing resistance that doesn't exist into the table. If is caught in a neutral timestop, there's no reason to assume he would break out of it. Although I don't know what Julius trapping Aizen in a timestop is meant to accomplish. He won't win that way and he's not keeping his magic up forever.

Rather a big problem is that Chrono-Stasis isn't even true timestop. The mages it sealed were all still able to process the situation and the conversation. It's just everything physical that's rendered immobile. As Aizen fused with KS, it can be activated just by looking at him. Not a good situation to be in. It's also possible that Aizen can still form Kurohitsugi outside the barrier, assuming his ability to generate spiritual pressure isn't affected, but that's a harder argument to make.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Voyeur (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Lol, exactly. When you have to use PIS to justify your own no limit fallacies, you hit a sad spot.
> 
> But go ahead and ignore the Black Clover manga to help yourself feel better.


There it is. The "I'm not gonna address any of my bullshit claims that have been pointed out by others" argument. We're done here. 


Sablés said:


> *As Aizen fused with KS, it can be activated just by looking at him*.


Never happened. Post the scan.


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> -snip-



Nope, we're not going to play your little game. You've spent this entire thread not making a single point for the sake of being bias.

I posted scans from Black Clover going over Julius's limitations and the limitations of the rest of the cast. 

Address the scans or concede.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sablés (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Never happened. Post the scan.


Sword is fused to his arm just like with Dangai Ichigo. Already a flag for the powers merging with his body.



Yhwach got locked in KS the first time he met Aizen and didn't realize it.



So unless you assume Yhwach just let Aizen trap him in a very elaborate ritual, then ended up being surprised that he was trapped, despite knowing full well how KS works, pretty clear how he was duped.


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## Voyeur (Apr 17, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Sword is fused to his arm just like with Dangai Ichigo. Already a flag for the powers merging with his body.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.  All I fucking asked for was some scans and a certain some one resorted to bullshit claims and PIS.


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## Sablés (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> *Why did he need 13 years worth of magic to stop the attack? Because of its overall power:*


Or...scale? Julius' time magic is usually local. The whole point of the elves' most powerful attacks is how widepsread they become. If Julius wants to expand his time magic's range to cover an unprecedented area, that will naturally take more energy.


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Or...scale? Julius' time magic is usually local. The whole point of the elves' most powerful attacks is how widepsread they become. If Julius wants to expand his time magic's range to cover an unprecendented area, that will naturally take more energy.



Scale could be implied since he comments on the size of the attack in another scan; however, his commit about the amount of magical energy lines up with everything done by Luci in the latest chapters as well.


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## Sablés (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Scale could be implied since he comments on the size of the attack in another scan; however, his commit about the amount of magically energy lines up with everything done by Luci in the latest chapters.


Not really. What hax do the magic knight captains really have? Most of them (actually all except 'Leona) can't even stand without backup. And even if there is resistance to their magic, what does that have to do with timestop?

Like actually think this through. "Licht" just used light magic enough to wipe out a whole ass mountain-city. Julius didn't just stop that attack, he reversed it. All this really suggests is that time magic uses up energy. Different types of time magic and how wide he applies it, can use up more energy. This doesn't really have much to do with the energy of the opponent. You normally don't assume that hax can be negated by power until it happens. And even when it does, it's case-by-case basis.


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Not really. What hax do the magic knight captains really have? Most of them (actually all except 'Leona) can't even stand without backup. And even if there is resistance to their magic, what does that have to do with timestop?
> 
> Like actually think this through. "Licht" just used light magic enough to wipe out a whole ass mountain-city. Julius didn't just stop that attack, he reversed it. All this really suggests is that time magic uses up energy. Different types of time magic and how wide he applies it, can use up more energy. This doesn't really have much to do with the energy of the opponent. You normally don't assume that hax can be negated by power until it happens. And even when it does, it's case-by-case basis.



This is largely true. The issue is that with the Captains, you have Dorthey and her dream world that got denied by raw power, Yami's darkness only left a scratch, and Luci's gravity was still in effect while holding onto Asta's sword.

The idea that Julius's magic was used up due to scale is still an interesting angle though. So that would mean its drained by the area of effect and not just time at face value?


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 17, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Aizen, who has never shown the ability to do this, can resist BFR because he's powerful? How many more abilities are you going to give him that he doesn't have?


I don't know this specific BFR, but yeah they can resist being BFR or closed in other dimension --

Reactions: Like 2


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## Keishin (Apr 17, 2022)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 17, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Luci is able to negate spells, even ones that can BFR you.
> 
> Aizen, who has never shown the ability to do this, can resist BFR because he's powerful? How many more abilities are you going to give him that he doesn't have?



EOS Aizen is superior to Base Ulquiorra , Shikai Kenpachi and Fullbring Bankai Ichigo.
And those 3 names have shown the ability to resist being BFR.

So you are wrong....

Reactions: Like 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> While were at it, how about you tell me about your thoughts about Julius having to use 13 years of stored time to counter an attack that was going to kill the Clover Kingdom's* population*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


he didnt use all of his stored time, Patolli didnt know about his revival spell which took a ton


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> You literally proved my point without realizing it.
> 
> The only thing I wanted was to prove that Asta has limitations like everyone else in BC.
> 
> Asta being able to move while in his fused form is great and all, but the only thing it showed was that he could negate the gravity effect on his own body at that time. Luci's gravity being in effect while holding Asta's sword should not be a thing if Asta has no limit to the amount of power he could negate because all the magic in Luci should have been negated while holding Asta's sword.


Well yeah duh everyone has some form of limits. You were at least in one of your posts implying unless I missed  something that it's a limit in magic type instead of a general time limit. Which is wrong 

"People here thought Asta didn't have a limit to what he could negate"

 .


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 17, 2022)

Let the retardation continue though guys. This is the most active obd's been in a while . Once Bleach vs Guilty Gear starts then the embarrassing laughter can truly begin for me.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 17, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> No, it doesn't. It's activated by the command shatter. What's fucking next? Bakudos are passive abilities ? The manga directly contradicts you by saying that one can prevent the effects by touching the sword before it finishes activation. Chapter 414 pages 14-15.


also on this, it never used “shatter” in that way. You’re referencing Barragan and Unohana. You should notice that before he shows his sword to Unohana he’s already in released state. “Shatter” is him removing the illusion in a really  exaggerated way (he doesn’t even need to do this). It’s the same with Barragan, he says “Shatter” then the illusion breaks down to shown the Hollows being killed. He didn’t do this when duping Halibel, Yhwach and many others

Aizen learned Bankai, thus can release Shikai without saying a word, then having merged with it, you need only look at him when he thinks about activating KS to fall under it.

I used to have this wrong too.


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> he didnt use all of his stored time, Patolli didnt know about his revival spell which took a ton


The time used to revive him was stored in a magic storing machine. 



TrueG 37 said:


> Well yeah duh everyone has some form of limits. You were at least in one of your posts implying unless I missed  something that it's a limit in magic type instead of a general time limit. Which is wrong
> 
> "People here thought Asta didn't have a limit to what he could negate"
> 
> .



There's not a single post where I said Asta's limit was based on a type of magic. I said he had a limit to the amount that he could negate. 

The entire point of me posting the Luci fight was to show that nothing in BC works if the power gap is too big based on the Black Clover manga, and Bleach also uses power gaps to negate abilities. That was the point I was making.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> The time used to revive him was stored in a magic storing machine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No it wasnt, it was stored in the mark on his body, he learned about the storage magic from ancient tech


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## BossKitten (Apr 17, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> No it wasnt, it was stored in the mark on his body, he learned about the storage magic from ancient tech



You're right. However, Julius implies that the magic stored in the mark is specifically for the revival purpose, not combat.


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## Sabotage (Apr 17, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> I don't know this specific BFR, but yeah they can resist being BFR or closed in other dimension --


I forgot about the fullbringers lol. I guess since Ichigo was able to bust out of Yukio's dimension, Aizen should be able to do it to Dorothea like Yami did. Avoiding getting bfr'd in the first place from an ftl character, I highly doubt that.

Again, Aizen is pretty much a statue to several people in BC


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> You're right. However, Julius implies that the magic stored in the mark is specifically for the revival purpose, not combat.


He doesnt imply that at all? Its literally there for him to use lol


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## Juan (Apr 18, 2022)

belch sucks

just because raw power lets you nope abilities in BC that doesn't suddenly apply to other universes, that's not how the obd's system works. what happens is that the character who nopes said ability gets given "resistance". it's not something that transfers out to any and all different series. 

it's the same with dragon ball- we don't say that out of the verse characters are immune to hit's time skip or hakai's soul bullshit, we give goku and co resistance to that kind of skill.

a character from another show needs to prove they have resistance to that skill/ability, it's not something given away, else we'd be claiming goku/superman/your mom's fat fucking ass can solo bastard!! simply because their biggatons are larger. 

tl;dr: learn how energy equivalence works before making dumb ass claims

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Juan (Apr 18, 2022)

also belch sucks

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 18, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Avoiding getting bfr'd in the first place from an ftl character, I highly doubt that.
> 
> Again, Aizen is pretty much a statue to several people in BC


I wasn't 100% accurate. They can get out from dimensional BFR, as the scan showed. It's not an instant loss if they can get out, so being faster than him just to BFR it's not that helpful, given that he can get out. Unless there's some specific condition on the place he's being placed


Juan said:


> belch sucks


Nice to know, but it really doesn't matter.
But I agree for the rest


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## Steven (Apr 18, 2022)

The paper verse wank is strong here


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## J★J♥ (Apr 18, 2022)

So does Julius stop time permanently or not ?


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

no and im surprised there are so many voting against aizen despite the overwhelming proof of time/space superiority. and aizen is also a "transcended being".


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 18, 2022)

Like, the whole point of the cleaner feat is showcasing nothing the other characters have can affect Aizen, and those characters can use timestop.

Is that simple.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 18, 2022)

>does Julius time stop permanently 

Considering that nothing in Bleach has shown resistance to timestop yes .


Now continue on .


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

So what exactly is preventing asta from using causality break and just undoing everything Aizens got since the sword severs the cause and effect?


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

What's stopping Aizen from having Yuno teleport the dude who can scoop space in his face and just deleting Aizen? What's stopping Gauche from mass cloning Asta and just dumping a zone if Anti Magic on his head?

Niggas are so focused on Julius that they forgot other niggas exist


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Also idk who the fuck brought up Anti-magic not being able to stop lucifero and therefore it has limits to what it can negate, when they defeated the dude by negating his gravity magic. 

Yall talk about people not reading but yall don't even be reading the fights and shit


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> So what exactly is preventing asta from using causality break and just undoing everything Aizens got since the sword severs the cause and effect?





Masterblack06 said:


> What's stopping Aizen from having Yuno teleport the dude who can scoop space in his face and just deleting Aizen? What's stopping Gauche from mass cloning Asta and just dumping a zone if Anti Magic on his head?
> 
> Niggas are so focused on Julius that they forgot other niggas exist


Transcendent being.Jpg  bruh . Get with the times bruh.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> So what exactly is preventing asta from using causality break and just undoing everything Aizens got since the sword severs the cause and effect?



Does that work on things unrelated to spells and magic?



Masterblack06 said:


> What's stopping Aizen from having Yuno teleport the dude who can scoop space in his face and just deleting Aizen? What's stopping Gauche from mass cloning Asta and just dumping a zone if Anti Magic on his head?
> 
> Niggas are so focused on Julius that they forgot other niggas exist



Aizen has resistance to space based attacks, and if anything has his reiatsu passively erasing things near him, as well as KS which can target multiple people at once if they are looking at him.


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Does that work on things unrelated to spells and magic?


I'm pretty sure equivalency covers this so his anti-magic would work on other universes powers


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Aizen has resistance to space based attacks, and if anything has his reiatsu passively erasing things near him, as well as KS which can target multiple people t once if they are looking at him.


KS targeting multiple people means nothing Causality Break is an AoE. How high is his resistance cause if it isn't high enough it means nothing here


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 18, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Does that work on things unrelated to spells and magic?


What does that even matter? Weren't people trying to combine these two power systems to the best of their ability beforehand? Yes it does. Spells in series include invisible concepts and shit.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 18, 2022)

Juan said:


> also belch sucks


Clorox & Black Clover are both downright awful

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

So wait a minute why then fuck is aizen getting resistance to an attack he never took?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> I'm pretty sure equivalency covers this so his anti-magic would work on other universes powers



In Bleach magic and spells are applications of reiatsu, Aizen's power are based on reiatsu itself and the hogyoku reality warping.

Can Asta pull a Ger and undo the actions and events performed by the target.




Masterblack06 said:


> KS targeting multiple people means nothing Causality Break is an AoE. How high is his resistance cause if it isn't high enough it means nothing here



Tearing trough space is easy, can destroy and escape sealed dimensions, Hachi's power or Yukio's game reality warping shouldn't work on him.




TrueG 37 said:


> What does that even matter? Weren't people trying to combine these two power systems to the best of their ability beforehand? Yes it does. Spells in series include invisible concepts and shit.



There's a difference between merelly changing technique outcomes and events.




Masterblack06 said:


> So wait a minute why then fuck is aizen getting resistance to an attack he never took?



Because is stated they wouldn't work and resisting something that outranks such attacks.


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## Voyeur (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> So wait a minute why then fuck is aizen getting resistance to an attack he never took?


Because people are stonewalling and adamant that Aizen is omnipotent and has resistance to everything, including having almighty like Ywach.


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> In Bleach magic and spells are applications of reiatsu, Aizen's power are based on reiatsu itself and the hogyoku reality warping.


So then anti magic works here


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Can Asta pull a Ger and undo the actions and events performed by the target.


He doesn't undo them he negates.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Tearing trough space is easy, can destroy and escape sealed dimensions, Hachi's power or Yukio's game reality warping shouldn't work on him.
> 
> There's a difference between merelly changing technique outcomes and events.
> 
> Because is stated they wouldn't work and resisting something that outranks such attacks.


Post the scans of all of this then


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 18, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> In Bleach magic and spells are applications of reiatsu, Aizen's power are based on reiatsu itself and the hogyoku reality warping.
> 
> Can Asta pull a Ger and undo the actions and events performed by the target.
> 
> ...


He didn't change technique outcomes. He flat out negated it for him and everyone else .


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 18, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because is stated they wouldn't work and resisting something that outranks such attacks.


Except for those instances where outranking attacks doesn't apply though right . Not that we would know either way for the time stop shit since nobody bothered to even try .


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Like if you didn't take the attack then you have no resistance to it. That's how resistances work. So if Aizen hasn't been hit by an attack that deletes space, he has no resistance to it


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## GregSteve (Apr 18, 2022)

Congrats on 9 pages Keishin you fucking mastermind you're truly the top tier of my heart

Reactions: Funny 4


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> He doesn't undo them he negates.



The events or the effects?




Masterblack06 said:


> Post the scans of all of this then



Already posted, Urahara and Isshin agree nothing they have can damage Aizen, Gin says the cleaner is above spiritual beings means to fight or resist, but Aizen is unaffected.






TrueG 37 said:


> Except for those instances where outranking attacks doesn't apply though right . Not that we would know either way for the time stop shit since nobody bothered to even try .



Which instances specifically?

Because this Aizen only fought Ichigo and Ywach who are stronger than him.



TrueG 37 said:


> He didn't change technique outcomes. He flat out negated it for him and everyone else .



That sounds like Orihime which is why I asked for details.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 18, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The events or the effects?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


>Which instances specifically 

I am 99% sure we've been here before .


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 18, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> >Which instances specifically
> 
> I am 99% sure we've been here before .



And I answered with the same question  


Nanana affected Aizen because his ability targets reiatsu voids, so he never really contended with his defense, even then that barely stopped him for a second.


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The events or the effects?


The effects of it by severing the ability or power from whatever is causing it. 


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Already posted, Urahara and Isshin agree nothing they have can damage Aizen, Gin says the cleaner is above spiritual beings means to fight or resist, but Aizen is unaffected.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Imma state it again, unless Aizen has actually been hit by an attack that deletes space he has no resistance to it. That's how all hax works, you need to experience the actual hax and show it not to affect you all to much or at all to have resistance. 

People saying it doesn't affect you doesn't count as you having resistance. Assuming such is gonna backfire on every verse


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> So what exactly is preventing asta from using causality break and just undoing everything Aizens got since the sword severs the cause and effect?


Lack of firepower.


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Lack of firepower.


Not how that works Keishin. Nice try though

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Pretty sure he survived Yhwach too yes.


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Pretty sure he survived Yhwach too yes.


 
What the fuck does that have to do with stopping aizens hax from working. Keishin are you keeping up with what people are talking about

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> What the fuck does that have to do with stopping aizens hax from working. Keishin are you keeping up with what people are talking about


Because Yhwach negged the rejection of events... and Ichimonji...


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## El Hermano (Apr 18, 2022)

Imagine browsing this place for almost a whole ass decade and still having no fucking idea how things work here.

Bleach fans ran out of manga material so they started consuming actual bleach.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 7


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Because Yhwach negged the rejection of events... and Ichimonji...


And? Aizen isn't Yhwach and he doesn't negate stuff he just switches future's so stuff doesn't affect him. He doesn't sever cause and effect.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

It's like I stopped being a mod and some of yall dudes lost your minds


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> And? Aizen isn't Yhwach and he doesn't negate stuff he just switches future's so stuff doesn't affect him. He doesn't sever cause and effect.


it doesnt matter what the method is when the effect is that it negs ichimonji and rejection of events.


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## BossKitten (Apr 18, 2022)

Juan said:


> belch sucks
> 
> just because raw power lets you nope abilities in BC that doesn't suddenly apply to other universes, that's not how the obd's system works. what happens is that the character who nopes said ability gets given "resistance". it's not something that transfers out to any and all different series.
> 
> ...



Raw power lets you negate abilities in both series.

Also magic power = reiatsu = ki. So no, BC isn't doing much to Aizen.

As for the DB reference, HIt is performing time-stop on universe-level beings. Obviously his time stop is on another level than anyone in this thread.


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## Big Bob (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> It's like I stopped being a mod and some of yall dudes lost your minds


Yes, everyone here lost the plot without someone to keep a leash.

TikTok VS will soon take over this section.


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> it doesnt matter what the method is when the effect is that it negs ichimonji and rejection of events.


With Hax it actually does matter. Where in the world do you get the idea that the method of the hax doesn't matter. How long have you been apart of this hobby dawg

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> With Hax it actually does matter. Where in the world do you get the idea that the method of the hax doesn't matter. How long have you been apart of this hobby dawg


also you're wrong he literally states whatever he sees will not be able to be used against him. 
literal hax negation.


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## GregSteve (Apr 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Raw power lets you negate abilities in both series.
> 
> Also magic power = reiatsu = ki. So no, BC isn't doing much to Aizen.
> 
> As for the DB reference, HIt is performing time-stop on universe-level beings. Obviously his time stop is on another level than anyone in this thread.


He's saying just because Jiren flexed doesn't mean we give Goku and Vegeta the same resistance


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> also you're wrong he literally states whatever he sees will not be able to be used against him.
> literal hax negation.


If his powers worked anything like asta he wouldn't have been affected by aizens hack even after the fact. That's what your not understanding


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## Voyeur (Apr 18, 2022)

You heard it here folks. Aizen has almighty now cause he survived Ywach.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sablés (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> If his powers worked anything like asta he wouldn't have been affected by aizens hack even after the fact. That's what your not understanding


Why make this assumption? Are you implying that no magic ability whatsoever, from whomever, can override anti-magic?


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Raw power lets you negate abilities in both series.
> 
> Also magic power = reiatsu = ki. So no, BC isn't doing much to Aizen.
> 
> As for the DB reference, HIt is performing time-stop on universe-level beings. Obviously his time stop is on another level than anyone in this thread.


Unless you have actually done the resisting then you don't get the feat of resisting. 



Sablés said:


> Why make this assumption? Are you implying that no magic ability whatsoever, from whomever, can override anti-magic?


 
Why are yall being weird. The Whole point is that Aizen has no answer for Causality Break, he has never dealt with someone literally severing cause and effect.


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## Sablés (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> Why are yall being weird. The Whole point is that Aizen has no answer for Causality Break, he has never dealt with someone literally severing cause and effect.


Not talking about Aizen here. I'm interested in where you're choosing to cap Asta's anti-magic, if at all. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is just blanket resistance to all magic and spells right?


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## Sablés (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> Unless you have actually done the resisting then you don't get the feat of resisting.


Or the power system in place provides that resistance, as power specifically does in regards to specified forms of space hax, time hax (not timestop), and memory manipulation.

For one example:

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Not talking about Aizen here. I'm interested in where you're choosing to cap Asta's anti-magic, if at all. Correct me if I am wrong, but this is just blanket resistance to all magic and spells right?


I'm confused on what your asking me


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Or the power system in place provides that resistance, as power specifically does in regards to specified forms of space hax, time hax (not timestop), and memory manipulation.
> 
> For one example:


It all depends on how the hax is done


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## Sablés (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> I'm confused on what your asking me


I'm trying to get a read on how far Asta's anti-magic goes, because I don't remember the mechanics myself. How does he negate magic. Does he interact with some abstract vehicle for disabling magic (like how the cat can protect the Black Bulls by manipulating fate) or is it just "magic stops working when it comes into contact with Asta"?

Although if it's the latter case, you're running head first into NLF territory.



Masterblack06 said:


> We don't do that with DB we can't do it for bleach


DB isn't Bleach so I have no idea why you're conflating them.

Fraccions (normal victims) can be permanently trapped inside a dimensional prison. Espada can't be, because they are too strong. In other words, spiritual strength interacts with dimensional BFR. This isn't the last time we see this either.

Yukio traps Ichigo in his pocket dimension as wide as Karakura Town from the inside. Ichigo busts out of it by flexing sufficiently powerful spiritual pressure.





Gremmy tries to BFR Kenpachi into space, and he grabs it with his bare hands and slices it open.



All these techniques are completely unrelated in origin and function. And Ichigo/Zaraki are two of the most basic fighters in the setting without any unique qualities besides their strength and spiritual power.

For memory hax. Rukia was forgotten by everyone in KT except Ichigo and co, because they had spiritual awareness.


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> If his powers worked anything like asta he wouldn't have been affected by aizens hack even after the fact. That's what your not understanding


aizen is a transcended being ie. time and space mean nothing to him. you know what aizen did isnt just showing one illusion but bypassing the almighty in its entirety.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Sablés (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> aizen is a transcended being ie. time and space mean nothing to him



I'm starting to see how this thread has gone 10 pages with arguments like this.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Sablés said:


> I'm starting to see how this thread has gone 10 pages with arguments like this.


>fucks over almighty
>fucks over cleaner
>reiatsu reaches the royal realm


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## Sablés (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> >fucks over almighty
> >fucks over cleaner
> >reiatsu reaches the royal realm


You just threw a whole bunch of words at me that mean totally nothing in this context and damn sure don't support Aizen is beyond time and space.

This thread fucking sucks.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Keishin (Apr 18, 2022)

Sablés said:


> You just threw a whole bunch of words at me that mean totally nothing in this context and damn sure don't support Aizen is beyond time and space.
> 
> This thread fucking sucks.


id say its ultimate proof. especially dealing with almighty.


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## Sablés (Apr 18, 2022)

Yeah sure whatever.


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## BossKitten (Apr 18, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> He's saying just because Jiren flexed doesn't mean we give Goku and Vegeta the same resistance



That's all fine and good. The issue is that Black Clover and Bleach both go by the Raw Power > Abilities rule if the gap in power is large enough. The only hope is Julius and he's not going to be able to hold Aizen forever.


Masterblack06 said:


> Unless you have actually done the resisting then you don't get the feat of resisting.



That would be fine if it didn't go against the mechanics of the actual mangas involved. You literally have to ignore Black Clover and Bleach rules to push this in this fight.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 18, 2022)

Keishin said:


> id say its ultimate proof. especially dealing with almighty.


Ultimate proof that this section is a complete shithole maybe lmao

Reactions: Funny 2


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## BossKitten (Apr 19, 2022)

Keishin said:


> aizen is a transcended being ie. time and space mean nothing to him. you know what aizen did isnt just showing one illusion but bypassing the almighty in its entirety.



This argument wouldn't be any different than saying that Devils in Black Clover are different beings and require a special kind of power to deal with them.


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## Solar (Apr 19, 2022)




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## DarkSlayerZero (Apr 19, 2022)

I knew this was gonna be dumb but not THIS dumb.


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## Akira1993 (Apr 19, 2022)

Aizen solo 99% of the verse, they have no way to put him down.

He has far superior DC and dura, and he is literally immortal and regenerate from those who can bypass his durability with superior speed (cough Yami). He literally crushes the rest with just using his reatsu, as shown that he can use it in an offensive manner against Grimmjow and I doubt Black Clover characters have the stats to equal that Hueco Mundo arc Grimmjow.

The only threat is Julius and his time hax.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Ningen 1


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## Akira1993 (Apr 19, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> So what exactly is preventing asta from using causality break and just undoing everything Aizens got since the sword severs the cause and effect?


Asta get crushed by Aizen's overwhelming reatsu dude, he is barely town level+ and Aizen managed to put down a city level+ character ( Arrancar arc Grimmjow) with his aura without breaking a sweat.

Only Aizen has shown to use his reatsu in an offensive manner in Bleach multiple time, and also has the greatest control of it. He wasn't chosen as a special war potential for his reatsu for nothing.

That is basically his greatest strength in Bleach and why he is among the god tiers.

No matter how many haxes Asta possesses, they still cap at town level at best unless he has something that ignores durability which I doubt.

Causality break is useless as well since he needs to:

1) take his sword in order to use it which I wish him good luck before getting crushed by his reatsu alone.

2) want to use it which I doubt he will if he is under Kyoka suigetsu's absolute hypnotism (Aizen can create an atmosphere which makes him less likely to use it or even being in battle mode), he wouldn't know that something wrong is going on (not even a guy who can see all futures at the same time and manipulate it saw through Kyoka suigetsu's absolute hypnotism).

Aizen will literally toy with him with his Zanpakuto.


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## Akira1993 (Apr 19, 2022)

For Julius, his time stop and FTL speed neutralizes Aizen.

But time stop requires Julius's mana and magic to maintain it because it is a magic spell, and his mana isn't infinite, one day, he will ruin out of mana and he will be at the mercy of Immortal Aizen who can wait months or years in order to kill Julius.

For Aizen, fighting Julius is synonymous to fight a jail time that will one day end on its own, like how he is sealed in Muken.

So at the very end, technically, Aizen still solo Black Clover because one day, he will get out of that time stop spell simply because Julius can't maintain it indefinitely unless proven otherwise.

So how long Julius can maintain his time stop? One day? One week? One month?

I doubt his feats suggest that he can even maintain his magic spell for more than 3 days and that is being generous.

Time is ironically on Aizen's side, not Julius lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 19, 2022)

I remember when i used to go to bat for Bleach, now i just regret it with all these fuckos here

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 19, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I remember when i used to go to bat for Bleach, now i just regret it with all these fuckos here



All you're doing is talking crap instead of making any points. People are really mad about a manga full of town level characters getting beat by a multi-continental character with hax, which is odd in itself. 

People are literally on here ignoring Black Clover power mechanics to try and give BC the win, but trying to say its the Bleach side that's wanking. Nobody here can give a valid reason as to why this wouldn't come down to Aizen vs. Julius, and everyone knows that Julius can't keep Aizen "time stopped" forever. That doesn't even include the outcome of people getting effected by KS.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 19, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> People are literally on here ignoring Black Clover power mechanics to try and give BC the win, but trying to say its the Bleach side that's wanking. Nobody here can give a valid reason as to why this wouldn't come down to Aizen vs. Julius, and everyone knows that Julius can't keep Aizen "time stopped" forever. That doesn't even include the outcome of people getting effected by KS.


Even if the mechanics are similar, both verses still need to show having resistance to that specific power in their own verse.
And for the fight, pretty much it sums as Aizen being slower, against a lot of faster enemies, with a lot of hax.

People just need to watch aizen to get into KS, but he still have to "activate" the shikai. He can do that without the command order, but he still need to decide to do that, and being slower means that he can do that after everyone else already used their hax.

Bleach has a time stop, but we never actually saw how that works, if it's usable in combat and else, so I wouldn't count on that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 19, 2022)

Literally no idea why yall think he has to keep Aizen time stopped forever, once he wins through making his opponent unable to do anything the fight is over and it doesnt matter lmao

Julius could also literally just accelerate Aizen at FTL speeds into space lol

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 19, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Even if the mechanics are similar, both verses still need to show having resistance to that specific power in their own verse.
> And for the fight, pretty much it sums as Aizen being slower, against a lot of faster enemies, with a lot of hax.
> 
> People just need to watch aizen to get into KS, but he still have to "activate" the shikai. He can do that without the command order, but he still need to decide to do that, and being slower means that he can do that after everyone else already used their hax.
> ...



The only thing in question is Julius's time-stop. Even if we assume his version works, Aizen would still be fully aware as we seen when Julius used it before. So all he is really doing is keeping his body motionless. That doesn't stop Aizen from starting KS because he'd still have his thought, and there's nothing to suggest he can't still perform chantless kido.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Literally no idea why yall think he has to keep Aizen time stopped forever, once he wins through making his opponent unable to do anything the fight is over and it doesnt matter lmao
> 
> *Julius could also literally just accelerate Aizen at FTL speeds into space lol*



Something he isn't even hinted at being able of doing, lol.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 19, 2022)

Genuinely though, how does one equalise Reiatsu crush into the OBD. I don’t want to NLF it to say you need to be a soul to resist it or some shit, but it is definitely a thing. Not only has it been used to negate hax, but it legitimately made a MHS+ and Country Level character drop to his knees unable to fight.  

That Aizen ain’t shit to this one. Or do you want to just say it doesn’t work?

Lawl Reiatsu crush is retarded, but acting like it’s not a thing is equally dishonest. The sheer power output different between these verses is ridiculous and in series the application of his Reiatsu has incapped a much weaker fighter in Grimmjow when he was still base Shinigami Aizen.


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## Akira1993 (Apr 19, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Genuinely though, how does one equalise Reiatsu crush into the OBD. I don’t want to NLF it to say you need to be a soul to resist it or some shit, but it is definitely a thing. Not only has it been used to negate hax, but it legitimately made a MHS+ and Country Level character drop to his knees unable to fight.
> 
> That Aizen ain’t shit to this one. Or do you want to just say it doesn’t work?
> 
> Lawl Reiatsu crush is retarded, but acting like it’s not a thing is equally dishonest. The sheer power output different between these verses is ridiculous and in series the application of his Reiatsu has incapped a much weaker fighter in Grimmjow when he was still base Shinigami Aizen.


Reatsu crush argument was hated because people back then used it wrongly in cross verse battles.

Because the other verse didn't had reatsu, a Bleach character can easily reatsu crush it with that sole reason. That was the logic.

I agree it is retarded, I use reatsu crush as it should have been, meaning by going with its best feats.

For instance Aizen's reatsu crush can easily neutralize city level+ characters BY FEAT, anything beyond would be NLF.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 19, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> The only thing in question is Julius's time-stop. Even if we assume his version works, Aizen would still be fully aware as we seen when Julius used it before. So all he is really doing is keeping his body motionless. That doesn't stop Aizen from starting KS because he'd still have his thought, and there's nothing to suggest he can't still perform chantless kido.
> 
> 
> 
> Something he isn't even hinted at being able of doing, lol.


You mean, something he literally did on panel by sending Patolli’s light magic back at him even faster? Lol


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 19, 2022)

Akira1993 said:


> For instance Aizen's reatsu crush can easily neutralize city level+ characters BY FEAT, anything beyond would be NLF.



Shouldn't the difference in raw power between EOS Aizen and Julius be as big as the difference between Shinigami Aizen and Base Grimmjow ?? Who got reiatsu crushed.


If so , then I think EOS Aizen should reiatsu crush Julius. And it seems that Julius only has the speed advantage. But that's not gonna help him either cause he can't win with it. He can only buy time to avoid the inevitable.

He may also buy time by using his time manipulation abilities. But they don't last forever from what I heard. And Aizen may instantly negate them with more reiatsu.

EOS Aizen should solo.


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## BossKitten (Apr 19, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You mean, something he literally did on panel by sending Patolli’s light magic back at him even faster? Lol



So Julius sent someone to space on panel like you suggested he could do?

Nice, post that scan just for fun.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 19, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> The effects of it by severing the ability or power from whatever is causing it.



Orihime does that too but even Ulquiorra can counter that.




Masterblack06 said:


> Imma state it again, unless Aizen has actually been hit by an attack that deletes space he has no resistance to it. That's how all hax works, you need to experience the actual hax and show it not to affect you all to much or at all to have resistance.
> 
> People saying it doesn't affect you doesn't count as you having resistance. Assuming such is gonna backfire on every verse



No, assuming a character can resist hax without feats based on powerlevel is a thing in vs debates, Aizen being stated as not being affected by anything previously seen in the manga and proving that by resisting a more broken type of hax than those things is different.





OneSimpleAnime said:


> Julius could also literally just accelerate Aizen at FTL speeds into space lol



And what would that accomplish?

Mildly annoying the immortal guy with teleportation?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 20, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> So Julius sent someone to space on panel like you suggested he could do?
> 
> Nice, post that scan just for fun.


He can accelerate things in his spheres as he pleases, so yes he can easily do that lol

yall act like you cant extrapolate from shit that happens on panel only when it doesnt serve you


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He can accelerate things in his spheres as he pleases, so yes he can easily do that lol
> 
> yall act like you cant extrapolate from shit that happens on panel only when it doesnt serve you



So he has nothing that shows he could actually do what you’re saying? Got it.


You can be creative with Julius’s options, but not to a point where you act like he doesn’t have limits.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 20, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> So he has nothing that shows he could actually do what you’re saying? Got it.
> 
> 
> You can be creative with Julius’s options, but not to a point where you act like he doesn’t have limits.


What the fuck are you actually talking about? He has accelerated something to FTL speeds before, if he does that to Aizen the dude is gonna be in space instantly without realizing whats happening lol


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> What the fuck are you actually talking about? He has accelerated something to FTL speeds before, if he does that to Aizen the dude is gonna be in space instantly without realizing whats happening lol



I’m not arguing his speed. I’m talking about the idea that his range can hit space in the first place.


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## Akira1993 (Apr 20, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> Shouldn't the difference in raw power between EOS Aizen and Julius be as big as the difference between Shinigami Aizen and Base Grimmjow ?? Who got reiatsu crushed.
> 
> 
> If so , then I think EOS Aizen should reiatsu crush Julius. And it seems that Julius only has the speed advantage. But that's not gonna help him either cause he can't win with it. He can only buy time to avoid the inevitable.
> ...


Yeah but Julius is FTL, he could probably strike first with his time hax before Aizen has the time to flexe his reatsu.


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## Keishin (Apr 20, 2022)

Akira1993 said:


> Yeah but Julius is FTL, he could probably strike first with his time hax before Aizen has the time to flexe his reatsu.


Aizen reiatsu is dangerous to even get near while hes sealed

Reactions: Like 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

While we're talking about Aizen's reiatsu, there is also this:

The seals on him restricted his reiatsu so much that he could even communicate. Out of around 20 seals, everything Aizen did was with only 3 of them unlocked.

*Spoiler*: __ 








After Shunsui used one key, Aizen produced so much power that Shunsui thought Aizen freed himself from all the seals. This shows how much stronger he is to his shinigami version that reiatsu crushed Grimmjow.



The seals keep Aizen's reiatsu close to his body, but his energy release is both passive and harmful:


Aizen's  passive reiatsu is the same thing that can destroy the cleaner, which is not supposed to be possible with spirit energy.

*Spoiler*: __ 








The cleaner that Aizen destroyed on contact is a thing from the dangai, which is outside of "time and space" and it emits and energy to where simply being chased by it distorts time.


While still have 17 seals and strapped to a chair, Aizen was able to reiatsu crush the soul king parts that required physical attacks from everyone else.

*Spoiler*: __ 










Once again, everything shown is while Aizen is sealed. If this is him without his seals, then his reiatsu is going to have a larger range and the Black Clover cast will have issues just getting close to him. This still doesn't take into account KS, which will only require a thought for him to activate, and given that Julius's time stop leaves the person aware, he'd have more than enough time to activate it.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 20, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> I’m not arguing his speed. I’m talking about the idea that his range can hit space in the first place.


His range doesnt matter? He can just fling him lol


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> His range doesnt matter? He can just fling him lol



So fling him out of his sphere or fling the time sphere? Both seem like bad options.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

A few points.
How could he move a stronger opponents? A common trope in fiction is to associate strength with "weight", like, they've country/continental strength, a casual swing should launch the opponent into space but that doesn't happen, even with surprise attacks.

It's not like there's no telekinesis or similar stuff that they've already resisted or limited by their powers.

How faster are they? Because from what I've understood they're like light speed or a bit faster, not MFTL. They act first, without too much problems. But it's not like Aizen would reach the end of the solar system before he can react, given that he's relativistic.

What throwing him out of space should accomplish? He's immortal, he can resist space effects, he can teleport and dimensional shift, he can fly/have physical stuff to balance/stop himself, 500k thousand km range (from the royal palace to soul society distance... It's not like he's never coming back from that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 20, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> A few points.
> How could he move a stronger opponents? A common trope in fiction is to associate strength with "weight", like, they've country/continental strength, a casual swing should launch the opponent into space but that doesn't happen, even with surprise attacks.
> 
> It's not like there's no telekinesis or similar stuff that they've already resisted or limited by their powers.
> ...


Can Shinigami fly in space? Dont they need to have reishi in the air to fly?


BossKitten said:


> So fling him out of his sphere or fling the time sphere? Both seem like bad options.


He can fling things out of his spheres


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Can Shinigami fly in space? Dont they need to have reishi in the air to fly?


They solidify the reishi (chapter 63), which something that a shinigami can produce by himself while quincy usually gathers from the ambient around (chapter 49). And we've even saw Kenpachi standing and flying while being in outer space with Gremmy.

But he could even use kido to create barriers, teleport... And all the other point I made


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> They solidify the reishi (chapter 63), which something that a shinigami can produce by himself while quincy usually gathers from the ambient around (chapter 49). And we've even saw Kenpachi standing and flying while *being in outer space with Gremmy*.


Please don't give them more ammunition. It wasn't a true vacuum of outer space.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 2


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## Keishin (Apr 20, 2022)

of course it was

Reactions: Old 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Gremmy’s reality warping makes real things. I don’t know why this space and the vacuum would be different.

He imagined missiles and they have electronics and were properly built. The meteor was also real.

Why make an exception for Galaxy Room? He’s not making a Galaxy, but he’s 100% opening an hole into outer space.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Please don't give them more ammunition. It wasn't a true vacuum of outer space.


Well, it wasn't _really_ out in space outside Earth, but that space acted like a vacuum, closed to what we need for that.
Still, it's not that relevant, the whole "throwing him in space" is a bit pointless, especially if they've better hax


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

What the fuck are y'all talking about? Are you all seriously trying to argue that Bleach characters can breathe in space?


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> What the fuck are y'all talking about? Are you all seriously trying to argue that Bleach characters can breathe in space?


No, that’s why Zaraki got hurt by being in space.

Aizen is immortal though so he doesn’t care and has regen. He can’t suffocate to death.

Reactions: Like 2


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Can Shinigami fly in space? Dont they need to have reishi in the air to fly?
> 
> *He can fling things out of his spheres*



He'd most likely be under KS while attempting this; however, this idea would be bad because Aizen can make a foothold in the air, is immortal, and it would end up being a waste of energy for Julius.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> What the fuck are y'all talking about? Are you all seriously trying to argue that Bleach characters can breathe in space?


No one's saying that, on the opposite Kenpachi example showed that even a shinigami like him need to breath, and I remember even other instances that suggest that.

But for Aizen, that's another topic, given his state and regeneration


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> No one's saying that, on the opposite Kenpachi example showed that even a shinigami like him need to breath, and I remember even other instances that suggest that.
> 
> But for Aizen, that's another topic, given his state and regeneration


Aizen is a bleach character. And regeneration and most types of immortality don't protect you from the vacuum of space. Why are you people insisting of giving him abilities and resistances that have NEVER been shown on panel? When this place used to have actual mods, that shit was worthy of a thread lock.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Aizen is a bleach character. And regeneration and most types of immortality don't protect you from the vacuum of space. Why are you people insisting of giving him abilities and resistances that have NEVER been shown on panel? When this place used to have actual mods, that shit was worthy of a thread lock.


He’s not protected.

He just won’t die, there is a huge difference. I’m not immune to the flu, but I won’t die from it. Aizen isn’t immune to the vacuum of space, but he can’t die to it.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> He’s not protected.
> 
> He just won’t die, there is a huge difference. I’m not immune to the flu, but I won’t die from it. Aizen isn’t immune to the vacuum of space, but he can’t die to it.



How about you prove it?


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 20, 2022)

If EOS Aizen is in the vacuum of space , he will not die because of his regeneration+ immortality.
And he can use reishi on his feet to stand in the space.

Although he will get damaged as long as he is in it. He just won't die . he will not suffocate to death. Simple.


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## GregSteve (Apr 20, 2022)

12 pages in and it's still Aizen vs Julius what a time


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Aizen is a bleach character. And regeneration and most types of immortality don't protect you from the vacuum of space. Why are you people insisting of giving him abilities and resistances that have NEVER been shown on panel? When this place used to have actual mods, that shit was worthy of a thread lock.


We're talking about Aizen, why do you generalize to "every bleach character" or "regeneration" "or most types of immortality"? Why should I care about other character or immortality/regeneration if here we've a specific case, here?

And when people argue about resistance that weren't proper to him, I argued against that. But here the topic is different.
Shinigami need to breath, but Aizen changed with the Hogyoku, even physically.
We know that no one in the soul society could kill him. So, it's clear that lack of air or food won't kill him, otherwise they would have just done that.
They don't speak about it, but for example, he's usually sealed, even in his mouth and I doubt someone goes to feed him. Even because, we've seen that stuff that goes near to him gets destroyed, so probably he can't even eat even if he wanted.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 20, 2022)

Im so glad i could derail this shit thread further with nonsense  

Bleach nerds will bite at anything

Reactions: Funny 3


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Soul Society can’t physically kill Aizen, even beheading doesn’t work. Yhwach injured him and he was fine and then sealed again.

However no oxygen and some crushed lungs will do it?


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## Keishin (Apr 20, 2022)

any wise bleach character would just open a portal or rip the space to go to garganta if they have trouble in outer space anyway since outer space is just a fragment of whats in the Macroverse inside Garganta


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> We're talking about Aizen, why do you generalize to "every bleach character" or "regeneration" "or most types of immortality"? Why should I care about other character or immortality/regeneration if here we've a specific case, here?



You're claiming Aizen had a "special" kind of immortality. Prove it. What fucking case? You haven't proven shit.
Cars from JoJo had much better feats showcasing his immortality and even he couldn't deal with space.



Bad Wolf said:


> And when people argue about resistance that weren't proper to him, I argued against that. But here the topic is different.
> Shinigami need to breath, but Aizen changed with the Hogyoku, even physically.



He doesn't have the hogyoku anymore and there is no onfeat panel of his breathing being changed. Again where's the evidence?


Bad Wolf said:


> We know that no one in the soul society could kill him. So, it's clear that lack of air or food won't kill him. otherwise they would have just done that.



Argument from speculation. Got it.



Bad Wolf said:


> They don't speak about it, but for example, he's usually sealed, even in his mouth and I doubt someone goes to feed him. Even because, we've seen that stuff that goes near to him gets destroyed, so probably he can't even eat even if he wanted.


What the fuck are you talking bout dude?  Why the fuck do you and your fuckbuddies keep giving Aizen feats and abilities that were never shown in panel?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> You're claiming Aizen had a "special" kind of immortality. Prove it. What fucking case? You haven't proven shit.
> Cars from JoJo had much better feats showcasing his immortality and even he couldn't deal with space.


Didn’t Kars specifically not die? He’s frozen alive and drifting in space no?


Voyeur said:


> He doesn't have the hogyoku anymore


It’s literally in his chest  


Voyeur said:


> and there is no onfeat panel of his breathing being changed. Again where's the evidence?


He’s not a normal being anymore, he’s been changed by the Hogyoku, he’s unkillable by Soul Society, including Urahara Mayuri and gang and you honestly think shoving his ass in a vacuum chamber didn’t cross their minds before they decided to seal him for 20,000 years because they couldn’t kill him? Idk, waterboarding? They individually sealed up his body parts, including his mouth and nose, he’s literally covered head to toe.


Voyeur said:


> Argument from speculation. Got it.
> 
> 
> What the fuck are you talking bout dude?  Why the fuck do you and your fuckbuddies keep giving Aizen feats and abilities that were never shown in panel?


You don’t even know he still has the Hogyoku, so idk what to say.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> You're claiming Aizen had a "special" kind of immortality. Prove it. What fucking case? You haven't proven shit.
> Cars from JoJo had much better feats showcasing his immortality and even he couldn't deal with space.


There's no "special kind" of immortality, you're just giving a bad argument. Basically every kind of immortality can have some common ground but then you go by feats. In Bleach, aizen's immortality meant that no one could kill him, and given all the hax around, that's way better than kars immortality (which is totally out of topic here).
Why should I argue about generic immortality if I can argue for what Aizen have? What kinda of logic is that?


Voyeur said:


> He doesn't have the hogyoku anymore and there is no onfeat panel of his breathing being changed. Again where's the evidence?


The hogyoku rejected him at one point, but where's the evidence that it isn't anymore with him? 
And even with that, it doesn't really matter, given that he's still immortal, he still regenerate, can't be killed by the SS and became stronger.
I could just post a picture of his butterfly/monster form which show holes in his torso, which clearly show a physical change for his body, including organs. Or when Bach blow a hole in his torso and Aizen still managed to speak, something that usually could't happen, because hair, breathing... eetc


Voyeur said:


> Argument from speculation. Got it.


Dude, the whole battleboard is speculation and hypothetical scenarios. Do you think all the calcs are present on screen?
Do you want a scan showing Aizen hit konohamaru to say that Aizen can hit him?


Voyeur said:


> What the fuck are you talking bout dude? Why the fuck do you and your fuckbuddies keep giving Aizen feats and abilities that were never shown in panel?


First of all, why are you arguing if you don't wanna argue?
Second, why do you argue that people give him feats when you have already failed to remember many feats? Should we just ignore stuff because you're on nerves the whole topic?
If you can't even separate the hate from the manga to the feats, it's better if you just stop posting in the battledome.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Didn’t Kars specifically not die? He’s frozen alive and drifting in space no?


Cars was literally incapacitated when he went to space. Nice try.



WhiskeyThan said:


> It’s literally in his chest
> 
> He’s not a normal being anymore, he’s been changed by the Hogyoku, he’s unkillable by Soul Society, including Urahara Mayuri and gang and you honestly think shoving his ass in a vacuum chamber didn’t cross their minds before they decided to seal him for 20,000 years because they couldn’t kill him? Idk, waterboarding? They individually sealed up his body parts, including his mouth and nose, he’s literally covered head to toe.
> 
> You don’t even know he still has the Hogyoku, so idk what to say.


Again. Fucking prove it.


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

@Bad Wolf 

One of the novels Kubo gave lore for confirmed he still had the Hogyoku, someone wanted to break into Muken to steal it from him.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Cars was literally incapacitated when he went to space. Nice try.


He’s not dead, he’s incaped himself by using air and freezing himself in ice, with no oxygen. Aizen opens a portal and fucks off back to earth. So why is this beating Aizen? Kenpachi survived several seconds of raw space?


Voyeur said:


> Again. Fucking prove it.


I’m not spoonfeeding you shit when you’re being like this.




it’s outdated still, but still has the regen and shit on there. I am not going through the entire Manga to pull basics facts for you. Use the OBD sources.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> There's no "special kind" of immortality, you're just giving a bad argument. Basically every kind of immortality can have some common ground but then you go by feats. In Bleach, aizen's immortality meant that no one could kill him, and given all the hax around, that's way better than kars immortality (which is totally out of topic here).


You're the one that's arguing Aizen has resistance to a vacuum because of his immortality and Regen. Reread your posts again. And no he doesn't have better showings then cars.



Bad Wolf said:


> Why should I argue about generic immortality if I can argue for what Aizen have? What kinda of logic is that?



Because you made the claim. Burden of proof.


Bad Wolf said:


> The hogyoku rejected him at one point, but where's the evidence that it isn't anymore with him?


It regressed his transformations. But it still hasn't shown up again in the manga, so I'm not sure why you guys are using it part of his arsenal.



Bad Wolf said:


> And even with that, it doesn't really matter, given that he's still immortal, he still regenerate, can't be killed by the SS and became stronger.





Bad Wolf said:


> I could just post a picture of his butterfly/monster form which show holes in his torso, which clearly show a physical change for his body, including organs. Or when Bach blow a hole in his torso and Aizen still managed to speak, something that usually could't happen, because hair, breathing... eetc





Bad Wolf said:


> Dude, the whole battleboard is speculation and hypothetical scenarios. Do you think all the calcs are present on screen?
> Do you want a scan showing Aizen hit konohamaru to say that Aizen can hit him?


You're just pulling shit out of your ass dude.  There's a limit to what characters can and can do based on their showings. You and your buddies at making miles fucking leaps on what Aizen can do, even with shit he hasn't show on panel.



Bad Wolf said:


> First of all, why are you arguing if you don't wanna argue?



Why are you posting?


Bad Wolf said:


> Second, why do you argue that people give him feats when you have already failed to remember many feats?



I misremembered fucking two. You and you buddies are giving him shit he hasn't done. Ever. And you haven't posted scans backing your claims.


Bad Wolf said:


> Should we just ignore stuff because you're on nerves the whole topic?


Should I just ignore you because you're being a dipshit like your buddies?



Bad Wolf said:


> If you can't even separate the hate from the manga to the feats, it's better if you just stop posting in the battledome.



You can fuck right off dude.  You aren't much better,trying to sound like the voice of reason when you are basically doing the same thing is worse. I have been here longer than you, and know the rules clearly which you and your buddies keep avoiding to adhere them. Ignoring the requests for evidence, stone walling, so please do everyone a favor and step off.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> He’s not dead, he’s incaped himself by using air and freezing himself in ice, with no oxygen.


I just said that. Read my post again, but slowly. And incapacitation is a winning scenario. Try again




WhiskeyThan said:


> Aizen opens a portal and fucks off back to earth. So why is this beating Aizen? Kenpachi survived several seconds of raw space?


Kenpachi didn't survive raw space. It was created by Gremmy.



WhiskeyThan said:


> I’m not spoonfeeding you shit when you’re being like this.



Asking for evidence is spoon-feeding? Concession accepted.


WhiskeyThan said:


> it’s outdated still, but still has the regen and shit on there. I am not going through the entire Manga to pull basics facts for you. Use the OBD sources.


Manga sources trump secondary information. Dumbass. Oh look another dipshit that thinks he's a veteran.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Kenpachi didn't survive raw space. It was created by Gremmy.



Bruh , you are in such extreme denial.
Gremmy can turn fantasy into reality. Him creating a galaxy/space room means that Kenpachi was in space.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> I just said that. Read my post again, but slowly. And incapacitation is a winning scenario. Try again


Aizen was conscious when split in half, he either didn’t have lungs or just doesn’t care. This won’t kill him or incap him


Voyeur said:


> Kenpachi didn't survive raw space. It was created by Gremmy.


Ridiculous, he was burned, exposed to a vacuum and the entire visionary ability is reality warping to make “real” things. The real meteor made of rock that wouldn’t disappear if Gremmy died, real missiles made of electronic components. And a real fucking vacuum.

Veteran odb indeed.


Voyeur said:


> Asking for evidence is spoon-feeding? Concession accepted.
> 
> Manga sources trump secondary information. Dumbass. Oh look another dipshit that thinks he's a veteran.


If the mods claps the link I’ll blame you. I’ll get them from VsBattles or something

these ain’t illegal host site urls, they be VsBattles ones


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Aizen was conscious when split in half, he either didn’t have lungs or just doesn’t care. This won’t kill him or incap him


That's regeneration. Bravo. You learned something.



WhiskeyThan said:


> Ridiculous, he was burned, exposed to a vacuum and the entire visionary ability is reality warping to make “real” things. The real meteor made of rock that wouldn’t disappear if Gremmy died, real missiles made of electronic components. And a real fucking vacuum.


Prove it. Prove it was a real fucking vacuum like space.




WhiskeyThan said:


> Veteran odb indeed.
> 
> If the mods claps the link I’ll blame you. I’ll get them from VsBattles or something






I'll give you props for posting a scan dude, but going through a portal doesn't equal to or mean he can survive going into space. It's the same logic applied to Dragon ball BEFORE super. None of the characters displayed breathing in space even though they traveled to different planets. Same thing applies here.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 20, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Ridiculous, he was burned, exposed to a vacuum and the entire visionary ability is reality warping to make “real” things. The real meteor made of rock that wouldn’t disappear if Gremmy died, real missiles made of electronic components. And a real fucking vacuum.



This.

Lol , I am not sure what he was trying to accomplish by saying ''didn't survive raw space''.

It reminds me of that old argument that Gremmy did not create a Meteor , he created ''a rock that simply had flames'' 
And their evidence was that ''there is no proof that Gremmy knows what a meteor is'' 

I suggest to ignore him at this point. He is ridiculous.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Old 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> That's regeneration. Bravo. You learned something.


Quite, and it’s going to repair his lungs while the vacuum tries to crush them. 


Voyeur said:


> Prove it. Prove it was a real fucking vacuum like space.


Visionary is a reality warping hax ability to imagine things into existence. He’d imagined bones to be literally cookies with the consistency of them, he made real missiles, real lava, real water and a real meteor.

first an non manga source: 
from a novel,”
Making one’s imagination transform into reality as it stands, is evidently a phenomenon close to the power of a god, in the life or death struggle against Zaraki Kenpachi, he conjured everything from a huge meteorite within Seireitei to the vacuum of outer space. 

In the end, he imagined power that could overcome Zaraki Kenpachi and made it his own, but because he couldn’t completely imagine a body that was able to withstand that power, it resulted in his self-destruction, he awakened from his dreams, and his brain ceased all function.”

Then. Can’t lie, I don’t know where to find a good scan so I might get burned here. Ignore the retards in the forum, just look at the scan. If that’s not edited, then it’s quite clear the reality of space is behind him.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Linvel (Apr 20, 2022)

Idk about you guys but whether I was a Bleach fan or not if someone told me that the vacuum Gremmy created wasn’t real and that I had to prove it, that would’ve been my cue to not take said person seriously.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Dislike 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

If I had to post a panel for everything with these rules I’d sooner off myself.

Hopefully this should be enough to explain how his reality warping works.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 20, 2022)

Linvel said:


> Idk about you guys but whether I was a Bleach fan or not if someone told me that the vacuum Gremmy created wasn’t real and that I had to prove it, that would’ve been my cue to not take said person seriously.



It's really simple. Gremmy Visionary power is to create reality with his thoughts. 
So whatever he creates is real.... That's what reality warping is at the end of the day

Not to mention ,that once he send Kenpachi into space ....Gremmy  explains what happens once someone is in  space. And at the same time we see Kenpachi suffer the exact fatal torture that Gremmy describes.


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> It's really simple. Gremmy Visionary power is to create reality with his thoughts.
> So whatever he creates is real.... That's what reality warping is at the end of the day
> 
> Not to mention ,that once he send Kenpachi into space ....Gremmy  explains what happens once someone is in  space. And at the same time we see Kenpachi suffer the exact fatal torture that Gremmy describes.


Where you’d get these scans?


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> You're the one that's arguing Aizen has resistance to a vacuum because of his immortality and Regen. Reread your posts again. And no he doesn't have better showings then cars.


Lol, should I open a Aizen vs kars thread like people to around?
And yes, vacuum isn't going to kill him, it won't stop him from coming back, unlike Kars.



Voyeur said:


> Prove it. Prove it was a real fucking vacuum like space.


Gremmy imagine stuff and creates it. It , it , any counter-argument?


Voyeur said:


> Because you made the claim. Burden of proof.


Hellooo, are you reading stuff or just writing random stuff? Why should I argue about generic immortality and not what aizen's have?



Voyeur said:


> It regressed his transformations. But it still hasn't shown up again in the manga, so I'm not sure why you guys are using it part of his arsenal.


, so wrong again. He clearly still has the upgrades made by the hogyoku



Voyeur said:


> You're just pulling shit out of your ass dude. There's a limit to what characters can and can do based on their showings. You and your buddies at making miles fucking leaps on what Aizen can do, even with shit he hasn't show on panel.


So, you don't have any counter-argument? Nice.


Voyeur said:


> Why are you posting?


Why are you complaing at every post while still not improving the quality?


Voyeur said:


> I misremembered fucking two. You and you buddies are giving him shit he hasn't done. Ever. And you haven't posted scans backing your claims.


And the numbers are rising. I'm not giving him anything that he doesn't have, at this point you should ask yourself if you're able to say what Aizen can do or not. Should I post the scan because you can't remember?


Voyeur said:


> Should I just ignore you because you're being a dipshit like your buddies?


And you're the one that speak about mods all the time, it's a true pleasure to engage in this hobby while people like you needs to talk shit to other people like that. Very rude.


Voyeur said:


> You can fuck right off dude. You aren't much better,trying to sound like the voice of reason when you are basically doing the same thing is worse. I have been here longer than you, and know the rules clearly which you and your buddies keep avoiding to adhere them. Ignoring the requests for evidence, stone walling, so please do everyone a favor and step off.


Don't even try, you're the one talking shit about users and the manga every post, it's really tiresome to read after a few posts.
I don't care about it, stop being so annoying. And I'm not even arguing for the win of Aizen, but every post there's so much wrong stuff that it seems stupid to let it fly. You talk about evidence when you can't remember a thing and never posted evidence for anything, you keep stone walling against everyone...
lol at being here more time than me, just a few months.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Lol, should I open a Aizen vs kars thread like people to around?
> And yes, vacuum isn't going to kill him, it won't stop him from coming back, unlike Kars.



We don't know that. Keep asking for proof and all you're doing is blowing smoke.


Bad Wolf said:


> Gremmy imagine stuff and creates it. It , it , any counter-argument?


Yes. That's how visionary works. Cept you keep saying it's like space and keep trying to say Aizen somehow magically has resistance to a vacuum.



Bad Wolf said:


> -snip-


Done arguing with you about this. Concession accepted.



Bad Wolf said:


> , so wrong again. He clearly still has the upgrades made by the hogyoku


Aizen was still one of the strongest beings in the series. He still regressed when he lost.



Bad Wolf said:


> So, you don't have any counter-argument? Nice.



Yep. Too bad they're going over your head.



Bad Wolf said:


> Why are you complaing at every post while still not improving the quality?


You can't complain bout shit posting when you're doing it yourself.  The fact that you can't see that multiple users challenged the notion your side is making claims about Aizen is being intentionally obtuse. 



Bad Wolf said:


> And the numbers are rising. *I'm not giving him anything that he doesn't have.*


Yes you are. If you weren't making such ridiculous claims about Aizen we wouldn't be here.




Bad Wolf said:


> And you're the one that speak about mods all the time, it's a true pleasure to engage in this hobby while people like you needs to talk shit to other people like that. Very rude.


I stated that shit like this is what got threads locked in the past in one post. Not sure what you mean by "all the time".  I haven't even begun starting talking shit and am just scratching the surface. 



Bad Wolf said:


> Don't even try, you're the one talking shit about users and the manga every post, it's really tiresome to read after a few posts.



You mean the users like you that are being obstinate and are stone walling?

Cause breaking debate rules is still breaking rules. I quit being civil the moment your side went full retard.



Bad Wolf said:


> I don't care about it, stop being so annoying. And I'm not even arguing for the win of Aizen, but every post there's so much wrong stuff that it seems stupid to let it fly.


Then stop posting.




Bad Wolf said:


> You talk about evidence when you can't remember a thing and never posted evidence for anything, you keep stone walling against everyone...



How bout you fucking look up what stone walling is and not use it as a buzzword cause I used it against you?

For the millionth time. Burden of proof rests on the positive. It's not my job to prove Aizen does X because I'm stating the opposite and negating the argument. It's your job to prove Aizen does X. It's not my job to prove the negative it's how debating works .




Bad Wolf said:


> lol at being here more time than me, just a few months.


I've been in this section for a decade. Smartass.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> We don't know that. Keep asking for proof and all you're doing is blowing smoke.


How should the vacuum kill him? Why didn't the shinigami just throw him in space? Suffocate him? Create a vacuum chamber?
What's this vacuum wank


Voyeur said:


> Yes. That's how visionary works.


So, no anti-argument for that? Nice.


Voyeur said:


> Aizen was still one of the strongest beings in the series. He still regressed when he lost.


Wait a second, are you trying to say, that Aizen after that fight with Ichigo, doesn't have any hogyoku's power? It's back to just his shinigami's power?
And any evidence for that?


Voyeur said:


> Yep. Too bad they're going over your head.


Like all the feats you've missed and I've to remind you?


Voyeur said:


> The fact that you can't see that multiple users challenged the notion your side is making claims about Aizen is being intentionally obtuse.


My side... I challenged many notion that someone made in favor of Aizen.
Now I'm challenging your notion in the same exact way.


Voyeur said:


> Yes you are. If you weren't making such ridiculous claims about Aizen we wouldn't be here.


We're here because you don't remember a thing about Aizen and I'm here to correct those mistakes. And what kind of power I'm giving to Aizen that he doesn't have? Kinda hard to reply when you're just saying "no, you're wrong, I'm correct" without even adding anything. Remember when you talked about stonewalling?


Voyeur said:


> I stated that shit like this is what got threads locked in the past in one post. Not sure what you mean by "all the time". I haven't even begun starting talking shit and am just scratching the surface.


And a good mod would even prevent people like you to continue joining discussion while being rude like this, insulting and complaining.
Your behaviour isn't any better than the people which you complain about.


Voyeur said:


> You mean the users like you that are being obstinate and are stone walling?


You know that I'm just replying to your post? And I've even posted less than you in this thread.
And you're the one that complain while not remembering stuff about one character.


Voyeur said:


> Cause breaking debate rules is still breaking rules. I quit being civil the moment your side went full retard.


So, instead of being better and improve the thread you too go full retard and start acting like this? Nice attitude.


Voyeur said:


> Then stop posting.


Guess what, I won't.


Voyeur said:


> For the millionth time. Burden of proof rests on the positive.


No one would read the manga for you just because you can't read it and you can't connect the dots.


Voyeur said:


> I've been in this section for a decade. Smartass.


Dude, you joined  Apr 3, 2012
I've joined Aug 2, 2012.
Can't you even read the dates now? I bet that I'm the smart one between us.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 20, 2022)

Here's hoping we make it to 20 pages

Reactions: Agree 2


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 20, 2022)

Why are you all even entertaining Voyeur nonsense?



Even the user that brought up the idea of launching Aizen to space already played the "I WAS ONLY PRETENDING TO BE RETARDED CARD"

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Apr 20, 2022)

Gotta do something to make 20 pages.


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## Big Bob (Apr 20, 2022)

Julius launches Aizen into space to meet up with Kars and make a new space shinigami/vampire order.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

The Black Clover side has been reduced to "what if Julius could send Aizen to space....wait, I was just kidding that was dumb".

Voyeur is nothing more than a troll at this point. No real argument and rejects facts from both Black Clover and Bleach just to try and give Black Clover the win.

At this point, it's clear that this comes down to Aizen vs. Julius and that Julius can't win.


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

Also, Ichiebi was there before the SK seperated the worlds. So by lore, the god-level beings in Bleach should be fine in space anyway.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 20, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Also, Ichiebi was there before the SK seperated the worlds. So by lore, the god-level beings in Bleach should be fine in space anyway.



I doubt they where ever left floating in space, Ichibei seems to imply he was told about the change later so he didn't notice the division despite being alive.

Actually is never stated that people would be harmed by the worlds merging or splitting.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Linvel said:


> Idk about you guys but whether I was a Bleach fan or not if someone told me that the vacuum Gremmy created wasn’t real and that I had to prove it, that would’ve been my cue to not take said person seriously.


Good thing nobody cares about what you think


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Why are you all even entertaining Voyeur nonsense?


Nobody worth their salt here takes you seriously. Too bad alot of them left cause they would have agreed.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Nobody worth their salt here takes you seriously.



Who gives a shit if that's true, I'm right.

Nobody here takes you seriously and you are also wrong, so


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Who gives a shit if that's true, I'm right.


Right about what?  That you're full of shit? Yeah that's true.

Obviously you do give a shit since you bothered to make a post trying to shit talk me. Dipshit.  Still a sad pathetic poster that you are.

Funny that most sane posters believe that Aizen loses and it's just your posse thinking that Aizen wins


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## Linvel (Apr 20, 2022)

Never seen someone go retarded more quickly than Voyeur did in this thread.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Linvel said:


> Never seen someone devolve more quickly than Voyeur did in this thread.


Okay my dude, keep trying to go for those internet points. I'm sure people care bout your thoughts bout a person on the internet.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Right about what? That you're full of shit? Yeah that's true.
> 
> Obviously you do give a shit since you bothered to make a post trying to shit talk me. Dipshit. Still a sad pathetic poster that you are.



I can see that you are seething, but is done, Aizen won, now stop embarrassing yourself


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## Linvel (Apr 20, 2022)

Voyeur said:


> Okay my dude, keep trying to go for those internet points. I'm sure people care bout your thoughts bout a person on the internet.


Not even on my mind. I don’t post enough to care about something like that.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> I can see that I don't really have an argument, but is done, BC won, now I need to  stop embarrassing myself

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Linvel (Apr 20, 2022)

But this thread is embarrassing and besides the usual suspects you’re pretty much the one who’s embarrassing themselves more.


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Linvel said:


> Not even on my mind. I don’t post enough to care about something like that.


You obviously do care since you're replying. Your actions say differently.


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## Linvel (Apr 20, 2022)

Eh it takes like two seconds to reply. Don’t really care about internet points which is what you said I was going for. But you just being stupid and not knowing what you are talking about is pretty consistent with the thread so not really surprised.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Linvel said:


> But this thread is embarrassing and besides the usual suspects you’re pretty much the one who’s embarrassing themselves more.


Nobody's telling you to keep the thread going. Again, you're trying to score internet points by trying to play a reasonable voice.  You're no better than anyone else in this thread, no actually you're worse. Cause you tried to shit talk about poster and now you're getting checked and are trying to claim "you don't care".


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## Voyeur (Apr 20, 2022)

Linvel said:


> -snip- nothing of note here.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 20, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> The Black Clover side has been reduced to "what if Julius could send Aizen to space....wait, I was just kidding that was dumb".
> 
> Voyeur is nothing more than a troll at this point. No real argument and rejects facts from both Black Clover and Bleach just to try and give Black Clover the win.
> 
> At this point, it's clear that this comes down to Aizen vs. Julius and that Julius can't win.


Ah yes, my shitposting plan has succeeded 

double lol you think this comes down to Aizen vs Julius when theres a million dudes with hax in BC


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> I doubt they where ever left floating in space, Ichibei seems to imply he was told about the change later so he didn't notice the division despite being alive.
> 
> Actually is never stated that people would be harmed by the worlds merging or splitting.



From CFYOW 3 - Chapter 22

"_As Ichibē explains, in the primordial world everything was in chaos; there was neither life nor death, progress and regress occurred at random, and it took a hundred million years for the world to become even remotely stable. Eventually, Hollows emerged in this world and started feasting on the human inhabitants, disrupting the circulation of Souls and giving birth to the first Menos. Due to this disruption, the world stagnated until, as if in response, a new being emerged from it, the Soul King, who destroyed the Menos, reducing it to sand. While *Ichibē admits that other special beings, such as himself, emerged as well,* none of them were as exceptional as the Soul King, being who truly approached omnipotence and omniscience.

While the Soul King continued to annihilate the Hollows to protect the world, it caused the world to slowly regress back towards chaos. In response, five powerful beings from that time decided to work together to fix everything; these were the ancestors of the Five Noble Families. However, Ichibē notes that while their methods and goals aligned, their motives did not: Tsunayashiro wanted to control the Soul King's divine power, a different ancestor wanted to create a "lid" to cover up the "pit" that would become known as , Kuchiki wanted to create order, Shihōin wanted to advance this stagnant world, and finally Shiba wanted to create a world were Hollows could live on their own in peace.

Eventually, the five realized that in order to accomplish their goals, they had to split the current world into three new ones and needed the power of a transcendent being to do so. While Shiba initially tried to convince the others to find another way, they nonetheless bound the Soul King and sealed him inside a crystal. *As Ichibē himself witnessed*, using the Soul King's  powers as a keystone, the world was split, life and death were separated, and the cycle of Souls began._"


Ichibei was alive during the primordial times, and was one of the beings created at random. Though it can be argued if they were in space as we know it since there was no real order at the time.


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Ah yes, my shitposting plan has succeeded
> 
> double lol you think this comes down to Aizen vs Julius when theres a million dudes with hax in BC



I was entertaining the space talk just to see where you wanted to go with it. So that was just fun chatter.


It does come down to Aizen vs. Julius since all other BC characters get their haxx busted do to the raw power gap like we seen in the fight against Luci, or are you going to say that the raw power rule only applies in-verse?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 20, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Ichibei was alive during the primordial times, and was one of the beings created at random. Though it can be argued if they were in space as we know it since there was no real order at the time.



The official translation says he wasn't there for the noble clans meeting, but more importantly, we don't know anything about the primordial world, might have been a planet or an infinite plane, but we can deduce that there was some type of civilization and such with culture and technology, and there's no implication of that changing for a noticeable length of time.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 20, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The official translation says he wasn't there for the noble clans meeting, but more importantly, we don't know anything about the primordial world, might have been a planet or an infinite plane, but we can deduce that there was some type of civilization and such with culture and technology, and there's no implication of that changing for a noticeable length of time.



It says he wasn't there for the meeting or for the separation of worlds?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 20, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> I was entertaining the space talk just to see where you wanted to go with it. So that was just fun chatter.
> 
> 
> It does come down to Aizen vs. Julius since all other BC characters get their haxx busted do to the raw power gap like we seen in the fight against Luci, or are you going to say that the raw power rule only applies in-verse?


it does only apply in verse lmao


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## Big Bob (Apr 21, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> It does come down to Aizen vs. Julius since all other BC characters get their haxx busted do to the raw power gap like we seen in the fight against Luci, or are you going to say that the raw power rule only applies in-verse?



*Spoiler*: __ 





Anti-magic seems to be working just fine.


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> it does only apply in verse lmao



Ah, so then there is no energy equivalency then?

Does this mean you also don't believe BC should have the reiatsu based benefits required to deal with bleach characters?


Big Bob said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anti-magic has an effect, just like Yomi's darkness magic, but lets not pretend it's not showing limits in the fight. Anti-magic is supposed to be able to negate magic, even destroying the source of the magic itself; however, Luci could hold Asta's blade and his gravity magic isn't effected at all.




So Asta is strong enough to cut him, but not strong enough to negate Luci's magic.


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## Big Bob (Apr 21, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Ah, so then there is no energy equivalency then?
> 
> Does this mean you also don't believe BC should have the reiatsu based benefits required to deal with bleach characters?
> 
> ...


If Asta has a limit then so does Lucifero. The Demon Slasher Katana cuts through magic and spells so Asta cutting Lucifero is him cutting through his magic or the "raw power" as you put it.

I don't think Asta even used causality break on him either so there's no feat for Lucifero being able to stop it with raw power.


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> If Asta has a limit then so does Lucifero. The Demon Slasher Katana cuts through magic and spells so Asta cutting Lucifero is him cutting through his magic or the "raw power" as you put it.
> 
> I don't think Asta even used causality break on him either so there's no feat for Lucifero being able to stop it with raw power.



Yeah, they both have limits, which is why Asta was cutting Luci up. Asta just reached his overall limit first, which is why his devil didn't have enough anti-magic to fight off Luci's gravity towards the end of the fight (both Asta and his devil were unable to stand and the devil is the source of Asta's anti-magic).



So if Asta's magic is showing limitations (the inability to negate Luci's magic), then what is it supposed to do to someone who is many times stronger? Not to mention KS. 

The problem Black Clover has in this match is that the gap in raw power is just as big as the gap in speed, its just favored in the opposite direction. They also have no answer for KS. All of this can obviously change by the end of the series, but they just need a really good feat to scale from that would get them in the right range. 

Asta specifically just needs to get in spitting range since his magic lets him hit above him pay-grade.


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## Keishin (Apr 21, 2022)

Black Clover is going to 3 month hiatus for final arc and hasnt even had a mountain level feat yet


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Black Clover is going to 3 month hiatus for final arc and hasnt even had a mountain level feat yet



Wait it's going into the final arc already?

They need to bring out the crazy feats then like Naruto, Fire Force and Bleach did.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 21, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Ah, so then there is no energy equivalency then?
> 
> Does this mean you also don't believe BC should have the reiatsu based benefits required to deal with bleach characters?
> 
> ...


Youre being disingenuous which is exactly why i stopped responding to this shit lol, equalizing energy does not give Aizen the benefits of in verse resistance lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## GregSteve (Apr 21, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Black Clover is going to 3 month hiatus for final arc and hasnt even had a mountain level feat yet


They actually have a Island-small Country feat we just need a number to go with it


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Youre being disingenuous which is exactly why i stopped responding to this shit lol, equalizing energy does not give Aizen the benefits of in verse resistance lol



I see. So equalizing energy wouldn't stop the BC team from getting passively killed due to a lack or reiatsu too then? Or is this one of those situations where it only works in ways that you'd like?

Reactions: Like 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 21, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> I see. So equalizing energy wouldn't stop the BC team from getting passively killed due to a lack or reiatsu too then? Or is this one of those situations where it only works in ways that you'd like?


Yall are so rabid for Bleach, stop sucking its fictional dick lol


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 21, 2022)

Yall wanna equalize power that hard? Cause then saiyan saga dragonball is gonna stomp the shit out of Bleach lol


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yall are so rabid for Bleach, stop sucking its fictional dick lol



I like how you go to insults when you have no point to make and realize how hypocritical your stance is. It's funny how personal you take things.


OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yall wanna equalize power that hard? Cause then saiyan saga dragonball is gonna stomp the shit out of Bleach lol



Lol, Noooooo!! I can't believe that they're are other manga out there that would beat Bleach, what ever shall we do  

No way that things like: Dragon Ball, Fire Force, Tenchi Muyo, TTGL, Space Dandy, The Fate Series, Sailor Moon, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, Shield Hero, and many others exist  

Thanks for the eye opener, lol.


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## Big Bob (Apr 21, 2022)

6 pages to go guys.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sabotage (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yall wanna equalize power that hard? Cause then saiyan saga dragonball is gonna stomp the shit out of Bleach lol


They already do

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> They already do



Let him think he made a good point


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 21, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> They already do


saiyan saga? not really lol


BossKitten said:


> I like how you go to insults when you have no point to make and realize how hypocritical your stance is. It's funny how personal you take things.
> 
> 
> Lol, Noooooo!! I can't believe that they're are other manga out there that would beat Bleach, what ever shall we do
> ...


i go to insults when the other person is clearly shitposting and making a terrible point lmao

Youve been around long enough to know how equalization works here, im not gonna humor you

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> saiyan saga? not really lol
> 
> i go to insults when the other person is clearly shitposting and making a terrible point lmao
> 
> Youve been around long enough to know how equalization works here, im not gonna humor you



Nah, you just wanted to avoid the question because you know you're double talking.

Also, I've been posting scans and going by the manga of both series. You've yet to make a single valid point. You just cry and fling insults.


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## Sabotage (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> saiyan saga? not really lol


Bleach top tiers are only sub relativistic and multi continent dc and durability.

So, yeah Raditz murders them

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## SoulOfCinder (Apr 21, 2022)

Does this section not have active mods or....

Reactions: Agree 2


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Does this section not have active mods or....



They want to see if we can make it to 20 pages.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 21, 2022)

Sabotage said:


> Bleach top tiers are only sub relativistic and multi continent dc and durability.
> 
> So, yeah Raditz murders them


Pretty sure Yhwach is at least moon level and has a ton of hax, unless db got faster SS db would lose to Bleach


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 21, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Nah, you just wanted to avoid the question because you know you're double talking.
> 
> Also, I've been posting scans and going by the manga of both series. You've yet to make a single valid point. You just cry and fling insults.


I dont even see how scans matter for the sake of equalizing power systems, that’s completely unrelated


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## Sabotage (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Pretty sure Yhwach is at least moon level and has a ton of hax, unless db got faster SS db would lose to Bleach



Nah, Yhwach is only multi continent level. And even BoZ Piccolo is relativistic+ and small planet+, so his hax is meaningless.


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## BossKitten (Apr 21, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I dont even see how scans matter for the sake of equalizing power systems, that’s completely unrelated



Scans matter when you pretend that I wasn't presenting facts to form an opinion. 

You came along and said that even though magic and reiatsu are equalized, the power gap wouldn't prevent Aizen from countering BC abilities. Then I asked if that would also mean that the BC cast would die from their lack or reiatsu by being around Aizen, since not dying around him has something to do with your reiatsu level.

After that you spazzed out. 

So now that you've had your chocolate milk and calmed down a bit, explain to everyone what you believe equalizing energy/power means, and why it should only benefit Black Clover.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 21, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Does this section not have active mods or....


this section does not even have active users

Reactions: Funny 7 | Winner 1


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## Sablés (Apr 22, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> this section does not even have active users


Where'd everyone go?


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## Voyeur (Apr 22, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Where'd everyone go?


Banned or left after the overlord's rampage. Blade and the others got perma'd.


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## Keishin (Apr 22, 2022)

Blade was like the only guy keeping db section alive with fanart.


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 22, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Where'd everyone go?


people got pissed admin had a bot deleting random posts theyd worked hard on, moved to another site and got banned for inviting fanverse members to go there lol

pretty much every regular here except me and like 3 others got perm'd

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keishin (Apr 22, 2022)

Mr. Bad Wolf here has brought a very good point about ciruccis feat being only like 4 times slower than black clover characters.


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## BossKitten (Apr 22, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Mr. Bad Wolf here has brought a very good point about ciruccis feat being only like 4 times slower than black clover characters.



It seems like wielding a weapon that has that kind of speed. It would mean that Bleach characters can perceive it; however, there would need to be proof that they can react to those vibrations per second as opposed to the person swinging the weapon.


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## Sablés (Apr 22, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> people got pissed admin had a bot deleting random posts theyd worked hard on, moved to another site and got banned for inviting fanverse members to go there lol
> 
> pretty much every regular here except me and like 3 others got perm'd





Voyeur said:


> Banned or left after the overlord's rampage. Blade and the others got perma'd.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 22, 2022)

it isnt exactly hard to find though you can literally google outskirts battledome and it's still one of the first results lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sablés (Apr 22, 2022)

Heh.



Julius vs Aizen overtaking the rest of the verse seems a little funnier in hindsight


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Scans matter when you pretend that I wasn't presenting facts to form an opinion.
> 
> You came along and said that even though magic and reiatsu are equalized, the power gap wouldn't prevent Aizen from countering BC abilities. Then I asked if that would also mean that the BC cast would die from their lack or reiatsu by being around Aizen, since not dying around him has something to do with your reiatsu level.
> 
> ...


Again, equalizing power systems does not grant you the in verse benefits of hax resistance lol

thats never how its worked


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## Sablés (Apr 22, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Again, equalizing power systems does not grant you the in verse benefits of hax resistance lol
> 
> thats never how its worked


This is true.


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## BossKitten (Apr 22, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Heh.
> 
> 
> 
> Julius vs Aizen overtaking the rest of the verse seems a little funnier in hindsight



Yoooooo, This looks cool, lol. 

Julius heard about this thread and was like "Time's up"

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BossKitten (Apr 22, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Again, equalizing power systems does not grant you the in verse benefits of hax resistance lol
> 
> thats never how its worked



I'm asking you to explain what stays in-verse for both series. What protections and what not. It's an actual question.


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## Sablés (Apr 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> I'm asking you to explain what stays in-verse for both series. What protections and what not. It's an actual question.


?
It's not something to think about. Equalization is to avoid arbitrary stupidness and have two verses fight "fairly" with the caveat of not giving an individual verse powers they don't have. 

Things Bleach power system can do remain. Things BC system can do remain as well. They can just interact.


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## BossKitten (Apr 22, 2022)

Sablés said:


> ?
> It's not something to think about. Equalization is to avoid arbitrary stupidness and have two verses fight "fairly" with the caveat of not giving an individual verse powers they don't have.
> 
> Things Bleach power system can do remain. Things BC system can do remain as well. They can just interact.




Break it down like I'm new to the BD please.

Chakra = Magic = Reiatsu = Ki. So people in each series can fight each other, correct?

Itachi uses gengutsu which effects chakra, but is still able to effect people in Bleach or Dragon Ball regardless of the energy source, correct?

So the abilities carry over in cross-universe matches, but power limitations concerning the amounts of energy don't?

This means that Asta should be able to negate a Kamahamaha too since his power is to negate and ki = chakra, magic, etc; or is there a reason as to why he couldn't counter it?


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## GregSteve (Apr 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Break it down like I'm new to the BD please.
> 
> Chakra = Magic = Reiatsu = Ki. So people in each series can fight each other, correct?
> 
> ...


That and Ki, Reitsu, Chakra etc is all the same shit anyways it's like Mexican food


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## BossKitten (Apr 22, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> That and Ki, Reitsu, Chakra etc is all the same shit anyways it's like Mexican food



Lol, yeah, that's a bit of where my confusion is kicking in I guess. So Asta can negate a Kamahamaha then since his raw power limit would only be in-verse?


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## GregSteve (Apr 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Lol, yeah, that's a bit of where my confusion is kicking in I guess. So Asta can negate a Kamahamaha then since his raw power limit would only be in-verse?


I'm not sure how his new sword works more of a @Masterblack06  question though he probably said it earlier in the thread

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Just saw this thread and it looked hectic af. Anyways if you equalize energies Aizen beats everyone here. Aizen scales above Hikone who moves at the speed of light which would make him FTL as well. Bleach character already had FTL reactions since SS arc. 

Julius timestop, ok so? He runs out of magic and dies. KS is passive now since he fused with his sword. He's resisted time manipulation before with the cleaner. He has enough energy to hold 3 planetary (possibly universal, depending on how you view Bleach universes) in place since he's above the SK's husk. 

Then he's got a reality warping, wish granting device that let's him evolve based on his desires. 

The immortal wins here, they can't put him down and he outlasts them

Also true element magic is a thing which kinda implies that the magic spells are real elements. 



Saw some garbage from someone saying Gremmy's space wasn't real when it was. Aizen somehow dies in space but he's immortal? They couldn't even erase him from existence because of the Hogyoku. 

There is wank from both sides, but BC side's downplay and ignorance about Bleach is sad to watch. They really said EoS Aizen needs to pull out his shikai.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Ningen 3


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## Big Bob (Apr 23, 2022)

Just what was needed to get a couple more pages.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Hikone who moves at the speed of light


Do you have any quote/source for that?
Because I'm pretty sure that if something that straightforward was in the novel someone would have already posted.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Aizen scales above Hikone who moves at the speed of light which would make him FTL as well. Bleach character already had FTL reactions since SS arc.



I know where you get that but no, the official translation doesn't say that.




T2K Baka said:


> Then he's got a reality warping, wish granting device that let's him evolve based on his desires.



That's caped by NLF and the Hogyoku being indirect in means, materializing desires from the heart and not from wants.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 23, 2022)

This is definitely TOTY lmao

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Piecesis (Apr 23, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> This is definitely TOTY lmao


The most pages this place has seen in the past year.  Didn't know BC could rustle jimmies this hard

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Do you have any quote/source for that?
> Because I'm pretty sure that if something that straightforward was in the novel someone would have already posted.



Hikone was moving so fast that it appeared that time was stopped. That's literally what shinra does as well, but shinra breaks down his body while Hikone doesn't.



> “_*At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped*. You may notice that Hikone, who should have been crossing swords in the distance with Kenpachi, was standing right behind Aura. What kind of movement did Hikone use? It can't just be speed. While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. *Yet it is a spectacle that even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted by his reiatsu and technique*, that most people aren't even able to react immediately in the face of that seemingly beautiful movement. Only one person was capable of reacting. There was no trace of hesitation, even in the middle of crossing blades with Kenpachi, only Hisagi understood that Hikone would go to attack Aura immediately, in order to protect Aura's rear, he stood in Hikone's way._”



I'm honestly so confused on why people haven't posted it. This is clearly Lightspeed and we've seen this in FF as well with Shinra.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> I know where you get that but no, the official translation doesn't say that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Official translations for what? Hikone? I can't seem to be able to upload the images but I have a screenshot from the officially translated novels for it that shows the same thing.


Edit: Got something here






Not really an NLF just because you claim it is. I'm not saying it has no limits, I'm saying that it's a reality warping device that works based on the user's desires. It gives him immortality and resistance to existence erasure, and if he desires to grow stronger in this battle he will and unless BC has hax that can negate or counter it, they can't do anything.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 2


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Hikone was moving so fast that it appeared that time was stopped. That's literally what shinra does as well, but shinra breaks down his body while Hikone doesn't.


But none of those are enough evidence to suggest Light speed or faster than that


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Official translations for what? Hikone? I can't seem to be able to upload the images but I have a screenshot from the officially translated novels for it that shows the same thing.



That very version of the text says they witnessed his moves but reacted late because of not expecting that and not understanding the technique used.

Shuhei is reacting to the same dialogue from Tokinada meaning he starts moving around the same time as Hikone and was still able to move behind Aura.

So the feat is Hikone moves some 10km in the time Hisagi moves around 100m, which is still impressive.


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## Keishin (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Official translations for what? Hikone? I can't seem to be able to upload the images but I have a screenshot from the officially translated novels for it that shows the same thing.
> 
> 
> Edit: Got something here
> ...


INTERESTING


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> But none of those are enough evidence to suggest Light speed or faster than that



How is that not evidence to suggest Lightspeed? He's moving so fast that time appears to stop, which only happens when your moving LS. This is literally how Shinra moves at LS. LS is how fast you need to move in order to make it seem as if time has stopped.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> That very version of the text says they witnessed his moves but reacted late because of not expecting that and not understanding the technique used.
> 
> Shuhei is reacting to the same dialogue from Tokinada meaning he starts moving around the same time as Hikone and was still able to move behind Aura.
> 
> So the feat is Hikone moves some 10km in the time Hisagi moves around 100m, which is still impressive.



Shuhei only reacted because he predicted it, not because he was able to keep up. He would've been blitzed otherwise. Shuhei knew that Hikone obeys all orders from Tokinada, if it wasn't for that he wouldn't have made it. 

This also doesn't disprove anything about the LS feat of Hikone, moving so fast as if time has stopped. This is the narrator describing what happened, it's not a character's view.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> How is that not evidence to suggest Lightspeed? He's moving so fast that time appears to stop, which only happens when your moving LS. This is literally how Shinra moves at LS. LS is how fast you need to move in order to make it seem as if time has stopped.


No, time would appear to stop if you’re moving at speeds several dozen to hundreds of times faster than things relative to your own in the surrounding area should you perceive your top movement akin to how someone perceived reality based human walking, a jog, or a sprint. Nothing about this is lightspeed, it’s generic fantasy bullshit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sabotage (Apr 23, 2022)

Page 16

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Freddy Mercury (Apr 23, 2022)

The Bleach cliché still going strong i see

Reactions: Agree 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, time would appear to stop if you’re moving at speeds several dozen to hundreds of times faster than things relative to your own in the surrounding area should you perceive your top movement akin to how someone perceived reality based human walking, a jog, or a sprint. Nothing about this is lightspeed, it’s generic fantasy bullshit.



Edit: I've been trying to post a link but it's not showing I think. I'm pasting it as plain text. 



It is lightspeed, just cuz you call it generic fantasy bullshit, doesn't make it so. Hikone was moving so fast that it appeared that everyone else was frozen.

Obviously not everything is realistic here since you would have infinite mass and need infinite energy to if you were actually travelling at lightspeed.


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## El Hermano (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> It is lightspeed, just cuz you call it generic fantasy bullshit, doesn't make it so.


This does nothing to refute his argument. You're just inflating the shit out of a statement that merely says "they felt as though time has stopped", not that it literally did. Something that would happen if there's a significant speed gap.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

El Hermano said:


> This does nothing to refute his argument. You're just inflating the shit out of a statement that merely says "they felt as though time has stopped", not that it literally did. Something that would happen if there's a significant speed gap.



I'm not inflating anything. This is a narrator describing what is going on. It's not a character's view on how they feel, but a narrator describing that to observer time would appear to stop. The closer you are to lightspeed, the slower time moves for you. If you reach LS then time would appear frozen.


Obviously there's gonna be some elements of fiction applied here since there are a lot of other problems moving at LS would have like having Infinite mass and requiring energy .

It's much better than anything BC has presented for it's LS abilities, especially since you got true elemental magic which uses real elements implying that the light magic that was used before wasn't actually LS.

Reactions: Ningen 2


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## GregSteve (Apr 23, 2022)

Hhhmmm as if timestopped I heard someone in this match could do that that beats Aizen


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> Hhhmmm as if timestopped I heard someone in this match could do that that beats Aizen



That wouldn't work since Aizen would be above Hikone and would be able to travel faster. Chronostasis doesn't even fully timestop if the target can still think. Regardless that doesn't do anything since Aizen would outlast the magic Julius has. Although, depending on what we see from these new chapters I'd say it could be a stalemate with Aizen vs Julius.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Btw can someone confirm if they can see the link or not


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## El Hermano (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> I'm not inflating anything. This is a narrator describing what is going on. It's not a character's view on how they feel, but a narrator describing that to observer time would appear to stop. The closer you are to lightspeed, the slower time moves for you. If you reach LS then time would appear frozen.
> 
> Obviously there's gonna be some elements of fiction applied here since there are a lot of other problems moving at LS would have like having Infinite mass and requiring energy .
> 
> It's much better than anything BC has presented for it's LS abilities, especially since you got true elemental magic which uses real elements implying that the light magic that was used before wasn't actually LS.


Once again - it literally indicates nothing aside from said character being really fast. You are indeed inflating it. It didn't even say "he moved so fast, causing time to stop". The characters _felt_ as if it had stopped, simply a metaphor. Black Clover actually has people evading/reacting to light magic attacks that FUNCTION in a manner similar to actual light. It's FAR more reliable than taking a statement like this and twisting it.


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## BossKitten (Apr 23, 2022)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, time would appear to stop if you’re moving at speeds several dozen to hundreds of times faster than things relative to your own in the surrounding area should you perceive your top movement akin to how someone perceived reality based human walking, a jog, or a sprint. Nothing about this is lightspeed, it’s generic fantasy bullshit.



Wouldn't it give us an idea of how much faster people at Hikone's tier is compared to the current Bleach speed calc though? By this I mean Aizen should also have speed that would make it seem like time stopped for people like Shunsui or whoever was in the quote.


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## El Hermano (Apr 23, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Wouldn't it give us an idea of how much faster people at Hikone's tier is compared to the current Bleach speed calc though? By this I mean Aizen should also have speed that would make it seem like time stopped for people like Shunsui or whoever was in the quote.


That would be calc stacking. We don't do that or all hell would break loose.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 23, 2022)

Lightspeed Mha here we come  . I knew O Clock, Number 6 and Koichi could do it .

Reactions: Funny 3


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## BossKitten (Apr 23, 2022)

El Hermano said:


> That would be calc stacking. We don't do that or all hell would break loose.



Meh, I could see that.


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## Top59 (Apr 23, 2022)

> “At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped. You may notice that Hikone, who should have been crossing swords in the distance with Kenpachi, was standing right behind Aura. What kind of movement did Hikone use? It can't just be speed. While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. Yet it is a spectacle that even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted by his reiatsu and technique, that most people aren't even able to react immediately in the face of that seemingly beautiful movement. Only one person was capable of reacting. There was no trace of hesitation, even in the middle of crossing blades with Kenpachi, only Hisagi understood that Hikone would go to attack Aura immediately, in order to protect Aura's rear, he stood in Hikone's way.”



It seems to me that it is not quantifiable in any way beyond giving  power scaling from Kenny, Hisagi and Aura. 

Edit: Perhaps if someone has an idea of the distance between Kenny and Aura at that moment, it could be argued that he covered that distance in less than a second, but with only text I find it difficult to deduce it


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 23, 2022)

Top59 said:


> It seems to me that it is not quantifiable in any way beyond giving  power scaling from Kenny, Hisagi and Aura.
> 
> Edit: Perhaps if someone has an idea of the distance between Kenny and Aura at that moment, it could be argued that he covered that distance in less than a second, but with only text I find it difficult to deduce it


It still probably wouldnt be faster than what other top tiers scale to


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## Top59 (Apr 23, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> It still probably wouldnt be faster than what other top tiers scale to


Is probably


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## BossKitten (Apr 23, 2022)

Shouldn't their be a minimum amount of speed needed to distort gravity and inertia, especially since the speed of gravity is supposed to be as fast as the speed of light?


" While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. Yet it is a spectacle that* even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted* by his reiatsu and technique"


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 23, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Shouldn't their be a minimum amount of speed needed to distort gravity and inertia, especially since the speed of gravity is supposed to be as fast as the speed of light?
> 
> 
> " While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. Yet it is a spectacle that* even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted* by his reiatsu and technique"


But it says his reiatsu is also doing it, not just his speed


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

El Hermano said:


> Once again - it literally indicates nothing aside from said character being really fast. You are indeed inflating it. It didn't even say "he moved so fast, causing time to stop". The characters _felt_ as if it had stopped, simply a metaphor. Black Clover actually has people evading/reacting to light magic attacks that FUNCTION in a manner similar to actual light. It's FAR more reliable than taking a statement like this and twisting it.



Do you not understand how time stop works. You don't stop time for the entire universe while you move fast. It stops based on your perspective. The characters moving at lightspeed would see time as if it's stopped because of the speed they travel at (dumbed down version). This is literally how Shinra does it and I'm only using him to show an example of time stop by travelling at LS.

There is no twisting anything here, you're just in denial.


Black Clover light magic attacks aren't real light, they don't even function to real light nice try tho. Last time I checked Light doesn't speed up, nor does it bend, but ok. Also, like I said the fact that there are true elemental magic that replicates the actual element means those LS attacks weren't actually LS.

Also even granting those attacks LS, just cuz they reacted to so called LS attacks, doesn't mean they can suddenly travel FTL speeds. If that was the case, then by that logic Bleach was FTL since SS arc with Negacion, Aaroniero dodging sunlight, and plenty of other LS feats.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Top59 said:


> It seems to me that it is not quantifiable in any way beyond giving  power scaling from Kenny, Hisagi and Aura.
> 
> Edit: Perhaps if someone has an idea of the distance between Kenny and Aura at that moment, it could be argued that he covered that distance in less than a second, but with only text I find it difficult to deduce it



Only Kenny scales to this since he was fighting Hikone casually without his shikai and eyepatch on. Hisagi only was able to react since he knew Hikone would always obey Tokinada and also had less distance to travel as well. He got lucky here. Aura doesn't even scale since she couldn't react either.

Anyone scaling to and above Hikone would be able to travel faster. Ichigo, Aizen, Yhwach, and Kenpachi. These are like the only 4 that are above him and would be faster

This is one of the more realistic descriptions of LS travel in manga and it's somehow being questioned.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Big Bob (Apr 23, 2022)

Great way to boost page count. 

Keep it up.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> But it says his reiatsu is also doing it, not just his speed


Reiatsu is used to travel fast, that's why it's mentioned.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Shouldn't their be a minimum amount of speed needed to distort gravity and inertia, especially since the speed of gravity is supposed to be as fast as the speed of light?
> 
> 
> " While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. Yet it is a spectacle that* even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted* by his reiatsu and technique"



usm.maine.edu/planet/how-does-time-stop

The closer you get to LS, the greater the time dilation, and at LS time would stop for you. Light from the Sun takes about 8 minutes and 20 seconds to travel from the Sun to the Earth, but that's to our perspective on earth. If you look at it from the Light's perspective then no time would've passed for it.




> Great way to boost page count.
> 
> Keep it up.


@Big Bob  Do page counts mean anything?


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## Big Bob (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> @Big Bob  Do page counts mean anything?


Does anything mean anything in this section anymore?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Does anything mean anything in this section anymore?


Fair enough. 

Though I'd like to ask what you think of this, if you don't mind.


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## Big Bob (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Though I'd like to ask what you think of this, if you don't mind.


Julius timestops, Asta causality slices gg.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Julius timestops, Asta causality slices gg.


Fair enough.

Even if you grant Julius timestop, how would Asta survive reiatsu crush or kill a being who couldn't be erased from existence. I feel like it's only a matter of time before Aizen wins by outliving most of the verse with the exception of devils. 

There's also a matter of KS which works the moment you look at Aizen and nobody in the BC verse would be able to get out of it since KS can affect a being who can see infinite futures simultaneously.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 23, 2022)

Can we go for a Turkey 20 page? This is probably the most attention this subforum has gotten since people left   .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Even if you grant Julius timestop, how would Asta survive reiatsu crush or kill a being who couldn't be erased from existence. I feel like it's only a matter of time before Aizen wins by outliving most of the verse with the exception of devils.
> 
> There's also a matter of KS which works the moment you look at Aizen and nobody in the BC verse would be able to get out of it since KS can affect a being who can see infinite futures simultaneously.


I'm not granting Julius timestop it's literally already his moveset. Causality Break affect cause and effect so his immortality is donezo.

They close their eyes.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 23, 2022)

Also
>Light doesn't bend

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 23, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Also
> >Light doesn't bend


Yes light only goes straight from the sun to your eyeballs. It calculates where your eyes will be facing the sun and then zaps right into them.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> I'm not inflating anything. This is a narrator describing what is going on. It's not a character's view on how they feel, but a narrator describing that to observer time would appear to stop. The closer you are to lightspeed, the slower time moves for you. If you reach LS then time would appear frozen.



"At that instant to *an observer* at that point, it *would appear as if* they're *under the illusion* that the surrounding environment's time stopped."
That's some key part of the text that you should consider more.
Without these, you could try to argue for a time stop, not even LS, given that this is fiction.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 23, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Yes light only goes straight from the sun to your eyeballs. It calculates where your eyes will be facing the sun and then zaps right into them.


And here I thought refraction and shit existed. Clearly I've been lied to all these years   .

Reactions: Funny 2


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## El Hermano (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Do you not understand how time stop works. You don't stop time for the entire universe while you move fast. It stops based on your perspective. The characters moving at lightspeed would see time as if it's stopped because of the speed they travel at (dumbed down version). This is literally how Shinra does it and I'm only using him to show an example of time stop by travelling at LS.
> 
> There is no twisting anything here, you're just in denial.
> 
> ...




Am I supposed to take you seriously after that first paragraph?

Moving so fast your enviornment appears to be frozen in time =/= timestop. It's literally just you moving much faster than anything in your vicinity. It's that fucking simple.  It was just a prose describing extremely fast movement and you are looking like a fool trying to twist it into something more.

This is just getting fucking stupid I'm not even going to address the rest of your comment. I'm done with this shit. Waste of time and brain cells.


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## Big Bob (Apr 23, 2022)

Damn we lost Big T.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Do you not understand how time stop works. You don't stop time for the entire universe while you move fast. It stops based on your perspective. The characters moving at lightspeed would see time as if it's stopped because of the speed they travel at (dumbed down version). This is literally how Shinra does it and I'm only using him to show an example of time stop by travelling at LS.
> 
> There is no twisting anything here, you're just in denial.
> 
> ...


You clearly havent read black clover lmao


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Also
> >Light doesn't bend



My bad, I meant bend as in like a whip. Obviously refraction is a thing, not like what we see in BC with Pastry's magic.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> I'm not granting Julius timestop it's literally already his moveset. Causality Break affect cause and effect so his immortality is donezo.
> 
> They close their eyes.



I meant that even with timestop it doesn't do anything. Asta's soul gets crushed before he can get close enough and they wouldn't know to close their eyes unless they have knowledge of each other. In a situation where Aizen gets dropped, with no knowledge of each other then it's kinda doomed for them.

Actually, I don't even know if verses are equalized here or not.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

El Hermano said:


> Am I supposed to take you seriously after that first paragraph?
> 
> Moving so fast your enviornment appears to be frozen in time =/= timestop. It's literally just you moving much faster than anything in your vicinity. It's that fucking simple.  It was just a prose describing extremely fast movement and you are looking like a fool trying to twist it into something more.
> 
> This is just getting fucking stupid I'm not even going to address the rest of your comment. I'm done with this shit. Waste of time and brain cells.



If you move so fast that everything is frozen to you, how fast are you going? I'm not saying they literally stopped time in the entire universe like some hax or something. I'm saying it appeared as if time had stopped around them, which happens when you move at LS. I'm not arguing that appearing to be frozen in time = timestop.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity

usm.maine.edu/planet/how-does-time-stop

There is nothing being twisted, you lack reading comprehension. Maybe go read up on the links posted.

Not addressing true elements in BC? So I guess True lightning magic and lightning magic are the same, just like true cotton magic and regular cotton magic? Why make a distinction and claim that "true element" uses the natural element or some shit if they're both the same. It applies to all the magic. So why does Light magic speed up, if light moves at a constant.

You calling my arguments stupid doesn't make them stupid, if you lack the brain cells to understand what I'm saying then that's your problem not mine. Don't waste the few that you got.



Bad Wolf said:


> "At that instant to *an observer* at that point, it *would appear as if* they're *under the illusion* that the surrounding environment's time stopped."
> That's some key part of the text that you should consider more.
> Without these, you could try to argue for a time stop, not even LS, given that this is fiction.



It says "Those who witnessed the moment felt as though time had stopped around them". This is referencing Hikone and Kenpachi since they were the only moving that fast. Obviously it's not 100% realistic since you would have infinite mass and need infinite energy to move when you travel at LS, but it's clear what they were going for here. I'm not arguing for a timestop, I'm arguing for LS. Arguing for a timestop wouldn't make sense here since that's not the intent. It was to demonstrate the speed at which Hikone was travelling, so that's why the narrator said it appeared that time had stopped around them.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 23, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You clearly havent read black clover lmao


I'm caught up lmao, nice try tho. You would know what true elemental magic is, if you read it. You can't really ignore this point, since it implies that the elements that aren't true elements are not real, but artificial elements. Luck's Lightning magic wouldn't be real lightning since he learned what true lightning is.

ibb.co/zJCvLwC

If your response is " You clearly haven't read BC lmao" then that just shows that you can't address my point.  I'll accept your concession.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 23, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> I'm caught up lmao, nice try tho. You would know what true elemental magic is, if you read it. You can't really ignore this point, since it implies that the elements that aren't true elements are not real, but artificial elements. Luck's Lightning magic wouldn't be real lightning since he learned what true lightning is.
> 
> ibb.co/zJCvLwC


That only applies to Luck's lightning magic (and presumably the "regular" types that spawn as a variation of elements) . I don't even know why you're trying to relate it to light magic and shit when they state in series that magic like light, Yami's darkness/dimension cutting and Julius's time shit are essentially rare unknowns.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 24, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> That only applies to Luck's lightning magic (and presumably the "regular" types that spawn as a variation of elements) . I don't even know why you're trying to relate it to light magic and shit when they state in series that magic like light, Yami's darkness/dimension cutting and Julius's time shit are essentially rare unknowns.



It doesn't just apply to Luck, we literally see it happen with fire, *cotton,* plant, earth, water, etc. It's shown to be a general thing across all magic "elements". You need to show that Light and Darkness are exceptions, which nothing states anything like that or implies it. The only thing about these types of magic is that they are extremely rare and that's basically it.

Even in the scan, it's talking about how the "true" is literal, as in actual lightning and we see this applied to like 5 other elements indicating a general case for magic spells. It's not even like 4 natures of Water, Fire, Earth, and Air, they even have true cotton magic and true plant magic. 

Also Light magic has shown to increase in speed, when light is constant. This gives more reason for true light magic to be a thing as well, even though it's already established as a general rule.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> It says "Those who witnessed the moment felt as though time had stopped around them".


Are you quoting a different phrase or the same but changing the text?


T2K Baka said:


> Obviously it's not 100% realistic since you would have infinite mass and need infinite energy to move when you travel at LS, but it's clear what they were going for here. I'm not arguing for a timestop, I'm arguing for LS. Arguing for a timestop wouldn't make sense here since that's not the intent.


First of all, they already scale to relativistic speed thanks to Ishida. And at that speed probably one should already witness to that effect because, even by that logic that's an effect that happen when you go fast and close to light speed.
It's not like that at 299,999 km/s everything is looking fine and at 300,000 shit happens.

Second point, it's full of "felt like" "under the illusion". It's not really like that. Have you ever seen Quicksilver fast movement scenes? It's something like that here. Time feels like it's stopped by it isn't.
The only way this could have worked would had the text say that time was really stopped thanks to their speed reaching light speed.
Instead the text is very clear that time isn't really stopped, they're just faster than the rest. So, unless there's a description that tell us that even something else that moves at a concrete speed is like frozen (like the shrike with a LS attack), it's impossible to tell


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## T2K Baka (Apr 24, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Are you quoting a different phrase or the same but changing the text?


I'm quoting the official translations of CFYOW. The first thing I posted was the translated Japanese I believe, I was just too lazy to type it out since I couldn't copy and paste.


Bad Wolf said:


> First of all, they already scale to relativistic speed thanks to Ishida. And at that speed probably one should already witness to that effect because, even by that logic that's an effect that happen when you go fast and close to light speed.
> It's not like that at 299,999 km/s everything is looking fine and at 300,000 shit happens.



Time starts slowing down for you the closer you get to lightspeed. For your last point, that's exactly what happens. Time will appear slower and slower and when you hit lightspeed it will stop for you.



Bad Wolf said:


> second point, it's full of "felt like" "under the illusion". It's not really like that. Have you ever seen Quicksilver fast movement scenes? It's something like that here. Time feels like it's stopped by it isn't.


Time is relative, not absolute. Just like Quicksilver and Flash, time appears frozen to them because of their speed. When it's completely frozen to you then you are travelling LS. If you watched Flash, you notice as everyone is frozen and he starts to slow down a bit, they start moving again, but slowly. It shows that he's slowing down from LS, back to the speeds of his surroundings. When Light travels from the sun, it reaches us in around 8 min and 20 sec, but that's based on our perspective. From the Light's perspective, no time would pass.



Bad Wolf said:


> The only way this could have worked would had the text say that time was really stopped thanks to their speed reaching light speed.



They don't need to verbatim state light speed if they describe the affects of how fast the person is travelling. Time stop relative to you occurs only at Lightspeed, so anyone who knows about relativity should understand what they are saying.



Bad Wolf said:


> Instead the text is very clear that time isn't really stopped, they're just faster than the rest.


Again time did stop, for the people travelling at those speeds. Time is relative, I didn't think I had to explain this. I don't even do physics and I can at least understand the little bit I know about it.



Bad Wolf said:


> So, unless there's a description that tell us that even something else that moves at a concrete speed is like frozen (like the shrike with a LS attack), it's impossible to tell



It's literally not impossible to tell, they are using a scientific and a little more realistic explanation on how fast they are travelling, this doesn't need debate, it's extremely clear on what is being said here. They are travelling at Lightspeed, if they weren't then they wouldn't be seeing everything as if time was frozen, but slow if they were going less than LS.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity#Special_relativity

sciencealert.com/watch-the-famous-twin-paradox-of-special-relativity-explained

We have the theory of relativity in our universe which is what the World of the Living represents, the Soul Society is a dimension that mirrors the World of the Living, only thing is that it's spiritual instead of physical.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 24, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> It doesn't just apply to Luck, we literally see it happen with fire, *cotton,* plant, earth, water, etc. It's shown to be a general thing across all magic "elements". You need to show that Light and Darkness are exceptions, which nothing states anything like that or implies it. The only thing about these types of magic is that they are extremely rare and that's basically it.
> 
> Even in the scan, it's talking about how the "true" is literal, as in actual lightning and we see this applied to like 5 other elements indicating a general case for magic spells. It's not even like 4 natures of Water, Fire, Earth, and Air, they even have true cotton magic and true plant magic.
> 
> Also Light magic has shown to increase in speed, when light is constant. This gives more reason for true light magic to be a thing as well, even though it's already established as a general rule.


Again, you didnt read this lol. Gaja states that his True magic simply gathers mana from nature to supplement his own, meaning his lightning is more “real” since it comes from nature, but the elves are literally blessed by mana and can naturally attune and use the mana around them, so they dont need scrip to draw in mana from nature lmao

not to mention Yami directly states that both Patolli and Raia move at light speed in the official translation, and the whip is Patolli’s only spell to not behave like light.

get some new fucking material, this was gone through years ago here so unless someone wants to make another meta thread about it, nut up or shut the hell up


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 24, 2022)

Whatre you gonna tell me next? Licht should have “true” sword magic? Lol

Elves passively use mana from nature, they go right from their regular magic to Ultimate magic which is a step above the True magic from Heart kingdom


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> I'm quoting the official translations of CFYOW. The first thing I posted was the translated Japanese I believe, I was just too lazy to type it out since I couldn't copy and paste.


The problem still persist as "Those who witnessed the moment *felt as though* time had stopped around them"


T2K Baka said:


> Time starts slowing down for you the closer you get to lightspeed. For your last point, that's exactly what happens. Time will appear slower and slower and when you hit lightspeed it will stop for you.


Problem here is that is a matter of perception.
And even you're saying that when you get close to light-speed time appear slower, the text doesn't say that time stopped, just that it seems like. Even using you how close that could be? 99,99% the speed of light? 1/2 the speed? 1/10? 1/100?


T2K Baka said:


> Just like Quicksilver and Flash, time appears frozen to them because of their speed.


I was talking about the , time seems to be stopped, but it isn't stopped.


T2K Baka said:


> They don't need to verbatim state light speed if they describe the affects of how fast the person is travelling. Time stop relative to you occurs only at Lightspeed, so anyone who knows about relativity should understand what they are saying.


Novel aren't tight to the standards of battleboards. Here we need evidence, solid facts.
And what you're talking about it's author intent, which we don't know because it isn't that clearly stated. Basically, it's just your interpretation of that.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 24, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> The problem still persist as "Those who witnessed the moment *felt as though* time had stopped around them"


How is this a problem? Again if you understand relativity this is what is supposed to happen when you travel LS. At LS, time will appear to stop for you.


Bad Wolf said:


> Problem here is that is a matter of perception.
> And even you're saying that when you get close to light-speed time appear slower, the text doesn't say that time stopped, just that it seems like. Even using you how close that could be? 99,99% the speed of light? 1/2 the speed? 1/10? 1/100?


The text said that time has appeared to stop around them. That is literally what happens at LS travel. I don't understand what you're even arguing. Time is relative, it's not absolute. 


Bad Wolf said:


> I was talking about the , time seems to be stopped, but it isn't stopped.


Again this is supposed to be what happens at LS travel. When you travel at LS, time is stopped for you. Check out the links I posted previously, there is nothing wrong with that the author is saying. 



Bad Wolf said:


> Novel aren't tight to the standards of battleboards. Here we need evidence, solid facts.
> And what you're talking about it's author intent, which we don't know because it isn't that clearly stated. Basically, it's just your interpretation of that.


There is solid facts, just because you don't know what relativity is, doesn't make it an interpretation. They are explaining how fast Hikone is travelling by using special relativity. We do know what the author's intent is because is extremely clear.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Again this is supposed to be what happens at LS travel. When you travel at LS, time is stopped for you. Check out the links I posted previously, there is nothing wrong with that the author is saying.


See, this is the main issue. You're saying that quicksilver in that video is moving LS?


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## T2K Baka (Apr 24, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Whatre you gonna tell me next? Licht should have “true” sword magic? Lol


That's exactly what I'm gonna tell you, if there is "true" cotton magic, why wouldn't there be "true" sword magic. 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Elves passively use mana from nature, they go right from their regular magic to Ultimate magic which is a step above the True magic from Heart kingdom


Where is it stated that they use mana from nature passively? Also Ultimate magic is essentially just a giant mana costing spell, Ultimate magic doesn't have to be natural. Sword magic itself isn't natural either. True magic is used to get more natural mana to artificially create an ultimate magic spell since they can draw out more mana from nature. Elves have so much more mana than human which is why they can use ultimate magic, it's not about natural mana or something.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 24, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> See, this is the main issue. You're saying that quicksilver in that video is moving LS?


Well, they aren't completely frozen, so he's not moving LS. He was getting close to it, but they were never frozen. In Hikone's case, they were frozen for him which indicates LS travel


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## BossKitten (Apr 24, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> But it says his reiatsu is also doing it, not just his speed



The reiatsu and technique is what Hikone used for the speed feat. There is nothing else being spoken of. So there should be a minimum that can be discovered for distorting gravity. Also, it isn't any different than any other series that uses ki, chakra, etc to produce a speed feat.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Well, they aren't completely frozen, so he's not moving LS. He was getting close it to, but they were never frozen. In Hikone's case, they were frozen for him which indicates LS travel


I think that the point that I'm falling to make you understand is this.
"Those who witnessed the moment felt as though time had stopped around them".
I'm not talking about the relativistic element of time for someone but how it's a matter of perception, details, even a matter of speech.
The text doesn't even say that the time is frozen for them, but it's just felt like that.
It could easily means that other people are so slow that any movement is barely perceptible. 
Even you, just before that post, stated that for quicksilver everything basically frozen, even though it wasn't. It's even a matter of speech.
And , what would that mean for you?


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## Keishin (Apr 24, 2022)

mayuri's drug gives dozens of times FTL reactions...


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## T2K Baka (Apr 24, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> I think that the point that I'm falling to make you understand is this.
> "Those who witnessed the moment felt as though time had stopped around them".
> I'm not talking about the relativistic element of time for someone but how it's a matter of perception, details, even a matter of speech.
> The text doesn't even say that the time is frozen for them, but it's just felt like that.



The problem here is that you don't understand what relativity is. When you move fast to the point where time appears frozen to you, that means you are travelling at LS.

The text says their surroundings appear frozen for them, it also says that to the ones not travelling as fast/the ones who couldn't react, they appeared to be instantaneous. Someone travelling at LS would have everything frozen to them, but to someone who isn't travelling at LS the person who is travelling fast would appear to be travelling instantly.



Bad Wolf said:


> It could easily means that other people are so slow that any movement is barely perceptible.


No that makes no sense. Why would they be that slow? Again relativity is a thing. I suggest reading up on it and understanding it better. If the text is describing how fast someone is travelling and that time around them appears frozen, that shows how fast they are going. Again this only occurs at Lightspeed. It doesn't mention that the others are travelling slow, but Hikone travelling fast

I'm trying to keep this as simple as possible, I don't wanna provide a complicated explanation. I don't need to.



Bad Wolf said:


> Even you, just before that post, stated that for quicksilver everything basically frozen, even though it wasn't. It's even a matter of speech.


I didn't know what scene you were referring to. I thought it was just frozen for him, but it was just super slowed down. He wasn't moving LS since it wasn't frozen, but he was moving closer and closer to LS.



Bad Wolf said:


> And , what would that mean for you?


This means nothing here. The drug Mayuri increases your senses and perception by an extreme amount, they aren't referencing speed here. This is just a red herring. It has nothing to do with speed or how fast someone is moving. Don't use this again please.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Apr 24, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Where is it stated that they use mana from nature passively?


This is one moment



I don't feel like grabbing the other image but go to chapter 47 page 10.


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## Jag77 (Apr 24, 2022)

17 pages? What the fuck? Has Black Clover surpassed Naruto in the Bleach war rivalry?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 25, 2022)

DarkSlayerZero said:


> This is one moment
> 
> 
> 
> I don't feel like grabbing the other image but go to chapter 47 page 10.


This page doesn't say anything and neither does that other page. Btw mana itself is from nature and within yourself. The magic itself is not natural though. So you can use mana from within yourself and around nature. Mana method allows you to focus on the natural mana and use that to generate a "true" element. True elements being the literal element as seen with Luck and his literal lightning, 

Mana zone also uses the mana around you, but that doesn't mean it's the literal element. That's not what it's meant for. Just the same with Ultimate magic. Those are just essentially high mana cost techniques. True elemental magic is the only one described as creating the "literal/true" element.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Voyeur (Apr 25, 2022)




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## Bad Wolf (Apr 25, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> The problem here is that you don't understand what relativity is. When you move fast to the point where time appears frozen to you, that means you are travelling at LS.
> 
> The text says their surroundings appear frozen for them, it also says that to the ones not travelling as fast/the ones who couldn't react, they appeared to be instantaneous. Someone travelling at LS would have everything frozen to them, but to someone who isn't travelling at LS the person who is travelling fast would appear to be travelling instantly.


Seems like you never read bleach.
Where blitzing someone is the usual stuff of the day, moving so fast that the opponent can't do anything, like an instantaneous movement.
This doesn't seems any different and you just picked one side effect and then you're trying to apply it here.
Good luck trying to get this accepted.


T2K Baka said:


> No that makes no sense. Why would they be that slow?


Because... they're way faster. So they could appear that slow.
Like a bullet getting fire is that fast that for us it's basically impossible to react, seems like an instantaneous movement while it's not.



T2K Baka said:


> This means nothing here. The drug Mayuri increases your senses and perception by an extreme amount, they aren't referencing speed here. This is just a red herring. It has nothing to do with speed or how fast someone is moving. Don't use this again please.


Yeah, you didn't understand it. It's all a matter of perception against other stuff.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 25, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> This page doesn't say anything and neither does that other page. Btw mana itself is from nature and within yourself. The magic itself is not natural though. So you can use mana from within yourself and around nature. Mana method allows you to focus on the natural mana and use that to generate a "true" element. True elements being the literal element as seen with Luck and his literal lightning,
> 
> Mana zone also uses the mana around you, but that doesn't mean it's the literal element. That's not what it's meant for. Just the same with Ultimate magic. Those are just essentially high mana cost techniques. True elemental magic is the only one described as creating the "literal/true" element.


Its literally cloud to ground lightning the same as Gaja uses lmao


This whack ass bleach wanker is gonna make this hit 30 pages just talking about some nonsense being C over and over


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 25, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> This whack ass bleach wanker is gonna make this hit 30 pages just talking about some nonsense being C over and over


Nah that argument is already old. I  that can help us reach 30 pages

Reactions: Funny 1


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## El Hermano (Apr 25, 2022)

You'd find more success reasoning with a toddler throwing a tantrum at a Chuck E Cheese than with this absolute troglodyte. Just let this shit drown. He can say whatever the fuck he wants, fact is he's wrong and nobody here outside of living memes like Keishin agrees with him and thus, It's going to be ignored when discussing battles.

Reactions: Like 2


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## T2K Baka (Apr 25, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Seems like you never read bleach.


I definitely have. I'm also caught up on BC. So I know what I'm talking about here. Unlike some people who think Aizen needs to release KS after fusing with it (not referring to you).


Bad Wolf said:


> Where blitzing someone is the usual stuff of the day, moving so fast that the opponent can't do anything, like an instantaneous movement.
> This doesn't seems any different and you just picked one side effect and then you're trying to apply it here.


Blitzing people happens in a lot of series, that's not what's being debated here. This is a LN, where it's describing the effects of someone travelling so fast that everything around them appears frozen in time, which happens at LS. It's called special relativity, read on it. They are giving a more scientific explanation of it.



Bad Wolf said:


> Because... they're way faster. So they could appear that slow.
> Like a bullet getting fire is that fast that for us it's basically impossible to react, seems like an instantaneous movement while it's not.


Way faster, but how fast are they travelling. The 2nd point is literally what I've been saying, except in a case with a bullet. Time would not freeze for the bullet's perspective, it would be slower than someone getting shot, but not frozen. Relativity is a thing. 



Bad Wolf said:


> Yeah, you didn't understand it. It's all a matter of perception against other stuff.


space.com/36273-theory-special-relativity.html
livescience.com/what-is-time-dilation
phy.olemiss.edu/HEP/QuarkNet/time.html

Read up on these.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 25, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Its literally cloud to ground lightning the same as Gaja uses lmao
> 
> 
> This whack ass bleach wanker is gonna make this hit 30 pages just talking about some nonsense being C over and over


What are you talking about? Luck's true lightning? 

If you could read what I'm typing then I'm not arguing "true" elements aren't literal elements. Then magic spells that aren't "true" elements are not real. This has been established as a general rule with what Gaja said. You're in denial at this point.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 25, 2022)

El Hermano said:


> You'd find more success reasoning with a toddler throwing a tantrum at a Chuck E Cheese than with this absolute troglodyte.


No need to be projecting so hard. The only one throwing a tantrum is you, calm down buddy. You're a clown who couldn't respond to actual points and just used ad hominem attacks instead. I understand tho, when you are so frustrated cuz you can't answer, you just want to attack the person.



El Hermano said:


> He can say whatever the fuck he wants, fact is he's wrong and nobody here outside of living memes like Keishin agrees with him and thus, It's going to be ignored when discussing battles.



You haven't actually addressed anything, just because you're deluded into thinking I'm wrong, doesn't make it so. If your response is calling me an "absolute troglodyte" or "Am I supposed to take you seriously after that first paragraph", then you shouldn't be debating. You then tried to twist my argument into me saying "appearing to be frozen in time = time is frozen for everyone", when that's not what I'm saying. 

First it talks about moving so fast *that time appeared to stop around them*, then talks about how *it was instantaneous for the others* and that they didn't even raise a cloud of dust where they came to stand, then talks about how *bending the forces of gravity and inertia*.

If you can read up on special relativity instead of barking like a dog, you would know this happens when you read Lightspeed.

space.com/36273-theory-special-relativity.html
livescience.com/what-is-time-dilation
phy.olemiss.edu/HEP/QuarkNet/time.html

This isn't hard to comprehend.

I dunno if you think that all Bleach characters scale to this, when it's only like 4-5. Don't worry, I'm not using this for every single character in the series, calm down.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 25, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> What are you talking about? Luck's true lightning?
> 
> If you could read what I'm typing then I'm not arguing "true" elements aren't literal elements. Then magic spells that aren't "true" elements are not real. This has been established as a general rule with what Gaja said. You're in denial at this point.


????? I dont think you even know what youre talking about any more lol

Elves are blessed by mana and are far more in tune with nature and mana than humans, thus they have no need for “true” magic to make their elements “real”. Patolli’s light behaves like light 99% of the time, both he and Raia are stated to move at lightspeed by Yami, and even Gauche uses mirrors to attack so his magic is also lightspeed lol


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 25, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Blitzing people happens in a lot of series, that's not what's being debated here. This is a LN, where it's describing the effects of someone travelling so fast that everything around them appears frozen in time, which happens at LS. It's called special relativity, read on it. They are giving a more scientific explanation of it.


I know special relativity, I know novels, I know figure of speech, metaphor and I've read many description of speed-blitz.
Show me why that feat shouldn't be any of these.

Anyway, as I said, even discussing about this is useless given the .
Focus on this, let's see if something is wrong or it stands any argument


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## Rev97 (Apr 25, 2022)

Going through this thread.

Thought I’d seen it all from Bleach tards

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SSMG (Apr 25, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> are stated to move at lightspeed by Yami, and even Gauche uses mirrors to attack so his magic is also lightspeed lol


L's Haku is finally getting accepted?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 25, 2022)

Slowing down? Not on my fucking watch   .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 25, 2022)

@T2K Baka please for the love of god use ctrl+k for those links.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 25, 2022)

Ngl If you're the same guy who tried pulling the "not real lightning" shit on comicvine @T2K Baka  then I'm gonna have a good fucking time here   . Its almost a dead ringer .

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Rev97 (Apr 25, 2022)

> FTL Belch by Soul Society arc according to @T2K Baka 

> Gin’s Not!Mach 500 sword considered the fastest Bankai among Captains

Reactions: Funny 2


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 25, 2022)

I'd mention the whole true magic shit in response to my old comment but everyone else seems to have that covered. Oh well it seemed  like a fun time  .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 25, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> ????? I dont think you even know what youre talking about any more lol
> 
> Elves are blessed by mana and are far more in tune with nature and mana than humans, thus they have no need for “true” magic to make their elements “real”. Patolli’s light behaves like light 99% of the time, both he and Raia are stated to move at lightspeed by Yami, and even Gauche uses mirrors to attack so his magic is also lightspeed lol



I'm replying to like 3 different and what you posted didn't even fit with what we were talking about. Elves are blessed by mana in the sense they have more mana supply than humans do. Mana is everywhere, in people, in nature, etc. Elves have a lot more mana than humans. Patolli's Light literally accelerated which is not what light does, it doesn't fully act like Light. The properties might be essentially the same, but it's speed is clearly not.

Gauche reflecting it back doesn't mean it travelled at LS, it could've been close, but if it's accelerating then it doesn't move LS.

Again "true" elements have been established as a thing. If this wasn't brought up later on, I would have no problem calling the Light magic Lightspeed. Most of it's properties could be light like, but it's not exactly light.



Bad Wolf said:


> I know special relativity, I know novels, I know figure of speech, metaphor and I've read many description of speed-blitz.
> Show me why that feat shouldn't be any of these.


If you know special relativity then this shouldn't even be argued anymore. I literally showed you why it's not a figure of speech since they're using a scientific description of what happens at LS travel. The same thing is shown in FF with Shinra vs Sho when Shinra starting moving at LS.


T2K Baka said:


> First it talks about moving so fast *that time appeared to stop around them*, then talks about how *it was instantaneous for the others* and that they didn't even raise a cloud of dust where they came to stand, then talks about how *bending the forces of gravity and inertia*.


This isn't a metaphor or figure of speech. It's using a scientific explanation of LS travel. We know relativity is a thing in Bleach, it's been mentioned before.


Bad Wolf said:


> Anyway, as I said, even discussing about this is useless given the .


What recent calculation? I don't know anything about calcs here, this is my first cross-battle thread I'm on.


Big Bob said:


> @T2K Baka please for the love of god use ctrl+k for those links.


I didn't know if you guys could see the links or not, nobody confirmed anything when I asked. The ones who replied just kept barking instead.



TrueG 37 said:


> Ngl If you're the same guy who tried pulling the "not real lightning" shit on comicvine @T2K Baka then I'm gonna have a good fucking time here


That's not me, I have no idea what you're talking about. I hate going on comicvine



Rev97 said:


> > FTL Belch by Soul Society arc according to @T2K Baka


Great another person who lacks reading comprehension. When did I say FTL Bleach by SS arc? I literally said the only ones FTL are the ones who scale above Hikone.



Rev97 said:


> > Gin’s Not!Mach 500 sword considered the fastest Bankai among Captains


And what does this exactly prove? It's Mach 500, so what? That has nothing to do with travel speed. Your acting like Ichigo wasn't blocking it without trouble despite being in a bad mental state. It's the fastest sword among the captains, cool, that means nothing.



TrueG 37 said:


> I'd mention the whole true magic shit in response to my old comment but everyone else seems to have that covered. Oh well it seemed like a fun time



Please do bring up those old comments, so I can retract my statement if you provide a good argument. I don't mind changing my stance if you can bring a proper argument, instead of making useless comments.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 25, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> I didn't know if you guys could see the links or not, nobody confirmed anything when I asked. The ones who replied just kept barking instead.


We can see the words but they aren't actually links until you link them on the site.

I know some people use mobile and fuck trying to copy paste links on that so linking them here makes it easier for everyone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rev97 (Apr 25, 2022)

Whatever Bleach tard


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 26, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> I'm replying to like 3 different and what you posted didn't even fit with what we were talking about. Elves are blessed by mana in the sense they have more mana supply than humans do. Mana is everywhere, in people, in nature, etc. Elves have a lot more mana than humans. Patolli's Light literally accelerated which is not what light does, it doesn't fully act like Light. The properties might be essentially the same, but it's speed is clearly not.
> 
> Gauche reflecting it back doesn't mean it travelled at LS, it could've been close, but if it's accelerating then it doesn't move LS.
> 
> ...


you didnt even address the point about Yami saying Patolli and Raia MOVE AT LIGHTSPEED


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> We can see the words but they aren't actually links until you link them on the site.
> 
> I know some people use mobile and fuck trying to copy paste links on that so linking them here makes it easier for everyone.


My bad then, I wanted to be able to make sure people are actually viewing them because I tried to view them on incognito and they showed as a blank space for some reason. Nobody confirmed if they could see them or not, so I just assumed that they were invisible to people. Thanks for confirming tho.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

Rev97 said:


> Whatever Bleach tard


Right, so at least you can admit that you have trouble with reading. Good to know.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> you didnt even address the point about Yami saying Patolli and Raia MOVE AT LIGHTSPEED


Yes Yami said they moved at Lightspeed, but then he says that he got faster. You could make the argument that he's faster than lightspeed at as a light magic user, but then Gauche said his ultimate attack was lightspeed. So you got basic light magic attacks being LS then accelerating faster than LS, only for the strongest and most unavoidable attack to go back down to LS. It's pretty inconsistent. 

Patolli's ultimate light move that Gauche got lucky (because he couldn't actually see the attack and predicted it) and deflected was stated by Gauche to be LS. Even if I accept that they can accelerate their attacks via what Julius did with his time shit, the fact that his ultimate attack was supposedly slower than one of his regular moves shows a lot of inconsistency.


Patolli's ultimate attack moves at Lightspeed according to Gauche.



Even if I concede that it was moving at LS and it was literal light, this doesn't mean anyone else with maybe Julius and other Light magic users can actually move at these speeds. Reacting sure, but not travelling at that speed.


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> you didnt even address the point about Yami saying Patolli and Raia MOVE AT LIGHTSPEED


That could be the speed of magic light instead of True light.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 26, 2022)

Keishin said:


> That could be the speed of magic light instead of True light.


That’s absolutely fucking horeshit and you god damn know it, shut the hell up bleach bitch


T2K Baka said:


> Right, so at least you can admit that you have trouble with reading. Good to know.
> 
> 
> Yes Yami said they moved at Lightspeed, but then he says that he got faster. You could make the argument that he's faster than lightspeed at as a light magic user, but then Gauche said his ultimate attack was lightspeed. So you got basic light magic attacks being LS then accelerating faster than LS, only for the strongest and most unavoidable attack to go back down to LS. It's pretty inconsistent.
> ...


Buddy, multiple people have reacted to and moved faster/dodged light from Patolli. Hes a mid high tier at best currently with his demon light magic, which is both stronger and faster than regular.

also them moving faster doesnt simply negate the statement of light speed? Like, thats not some kind of contradiction lol. Just because he can accelerate it faster than c that somehow negates the original statement? Dumb as hell

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

I think there definitely needs to be throrough debate about if theres proof of magic light's speed being as fast as True light's.


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## Big Bob (Apr 26, 2022)

I agree, keep posting more in this thread.

30 pages is no longer a dream.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Buddy, multiple people have reacted to and moved faster/dodged light from Patolli. Hes a mid high tier at best currently with his demon light magic, which is both stronger and faster than regular



Again, Patolli's light might not be literal light.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> also them moving faster doesnt simply negate the statement of light speed? Like, thats not some kind of contradiction lol. Just because he can accelerate it faster than c that somehow negates the original statement? Dumb as hell



Light doesn't get faster than lightspeed. It also doesn't get slower than lightspeed. That is a contradiction. Light is always constant, if it's moving faster then it's not true light. You can call it magical light, but not literal light.

The problem is that later on in the series we see that true elements become a thing and make everything questionable. Natural lightning seemed more powerful than Luck's regular lightning magic and that was because it became the literal element. It also applied to other elements such as water, plant, earth, air, and even cotton. It's not like it was specific to lightning, but it was more of a general rule.

Because this was introduced, the previous feats that were shown might not be what they seem. Maybe the light from light magic wasn't LS, but close to it.  This makes more sense because it was able to be accelerated and Patolli's ultimate light attack was supposed to be fast and that was lightspeed (according to Gauche at least), but Yami was dodging "accelerated" lightspeed attacks earlier, but for the ultimate attack, even he admits that he was doomed until Gauche came in and got a lucky deflection.

The statements become inconsistent when you go over it and with the introduction of "true" elements, it's more logical to assume that it wasn't truly LS. It might have had the properties of light, but there was something missing because it wasn't the literal element and I only thing that comes to mind is the speed of the attacks.

If they were truly LS-FTL, they would be crossing distances instantly and even having seconds shouldn't be a problem. Against Dante and against Lucifero, the seconds they had, should've been more than enough for them, but that seemed like too little time.

This is why I believe light magic isn't literal light, but magical light which isn't LS, but potentially close to it. The "true" element magic made it seem like it was much more potent than the magical versions.

If we don't get any "true" light or "true" darkness for Yami within a year, since you or maybe someone else said those elements don't have a "true" form despite the series establishing "true" elements as a thing, then I'll concede this point here. For now, I don't believe it's true light, and they only have reactions close to it.


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

Of course its not true light but magic light sincevits not like they are using flashlights to create the light.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

That's not really an argument against it being real light or not lmao. 

It's more like they established a general rule for "true" element magic being the literal element and it was more powerful than the regular magic of that element. If they were the same, there would be no point of making such a differentiation.


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> this section does not even have active users


This thread has over 500 posts

It just depens on the topic


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> First of all, they already scale to relativistic speed thanks to Ishida


What feats makes them relativistic?


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## Daio (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> What feats makes them relativistic?


Apparently Uryu has Sub-Relativistic perception speed based on a calc and it should scale to anyone relevant.


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

Daio said:


> Apparently Uryu has Sub-Relativistic perception speed based on a calc and it should scale to anyone relevant.


I know,but sub-rela aint relativistic


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## Daio (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> I know,but sub-rela aint relativistic


I never said it.


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

Daio said:


> I never said it.


Good

Iirc Clorox caps at mach 13000 or something.Its by far the slowest HST Verse


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

speed isnt everything if you dont have the dc or hax to back it up.


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Good
> 
> Iirc Clorox caps at mach 13000 or something.Its by far the slowest HST Verse


6.5c yhwach


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> What feats makes them relativistic?


His reaction perception to his and Cirucci's weapons, they should have between 34k km/s to 93k km/s.
Now I've done another calculation that could put them higher but it's still getting discussed


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

Wait,do people try to downgrade BC´s speed for whatever reason?Yami dodged Light,which also acted like light by getting deflected by some mirror


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

Keishin said:


> 6.5c yhwach


Such an timeframe will never getting accepted

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Wait,do people try to downgrade BC´s speed for whatever reason?Yami dodged Light,which also acted like light by getting deflected by some mirror


but magic light also should be able to be reflected.


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Such an timeframe will never getting accepted


its just 1 panel to the royal realm and back from there


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## Daio (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Good
> 
> Iirc Clorox caps at mach 13000 or something.Its by far the slowest HST Verse


Untrue. @T2K Baka has already shown the Hikone feat in CFYOW that would make a couple of characters at least light speed.

There's also some speed feats that haven't been calculated that could yield similar or higher results.

In the first place, you do realise some of the higher end speed calcs on this site are explicitly _lowballed_ to _hilarious_ levels?

E.g using _freefall_ for a _superhuman_ character's _maximum_ travel speed to find an important distance in-series.

Bleach is certainly not _capped_ at Sub-Relativitsic. In fact, that's outright _downplay_.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Such an timeframe will never getting accepted


You can come an argue why it shouldn't be a good timeframe, it will be a pleasure, I prefer to test the calc if it's any good. But I prefer on that thread, this is just a random vs and not the right place to discuss it


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 26, 2022)

Yall continue to get more stupid with every post, i didnt think it was possible, you’ve genuinely impressed me with your idiocy. Congrats!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> This thread has over 500 posts
> 
> It just depens on the topic


500 posts from the same 5 people about the same dumbass shit bro
this is far from the first Julius vs Bleach thread too so it isn't even original


this forum is a stagnant swamp of a community that got mercy killed by an incredibly stupid admin banning half of it

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Keishin (Apr 26, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yall continue to get more stupid with every post, i didnt think it was possible, you’ve genuinely impressed me with your idiocy. Congrats!


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> this forum is a stagnant swamp of a community that got mercy killed by an incredibly stupid admin banning half of it


Im not gonna defend Mbxx but the section was a ghosttown even before he perma banned a lot of people.The only active thread was the Convo.


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Im not gonna defend Mbxx but the section was a ghosttown even before he perma banned a lot of people.The only active thread was the Convo.


point is that even that ghost town, is night and day compared to what's left


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## Juan (Apr 26, 2022)

i still hold that belch sucks

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Funny 2 | Disagree 3 | Dislike 1


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> point is that even that ghost town, is night and day compared to what's left


Cant deny that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Apr 26, 2022)

@OtherGalaxy at least with @T2K Baka and @animeallen we got 2 new gems here

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 26, 2022)

Jesus fucking Christ that runaround    .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Good
> 
> Iirc Clorox caps at mach 13000 or something.Its by far the slowest HST Verse



Bleach has LS travel feats with CFYOW and Hikone. Just because people don't understand relativity and just bark like a dog, doesn't mean it's not LS. Only people who scale above him are FTL which is like 4-5 ppl



Steven said:


> Wait,do people try to downgrade BC´s speed for whatever reason?Yami dodged Light,which also acted like light by getting deflected by some mirror



I would have no problem with light magic being LS, if "true" elemental magic which creates the literal element wasn't introduced. It makes everything before that questionable. There would be no point of making a distinction between them if they were both the same.

Reactions: Ningen 2 | Old 1


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## GregSteve (Apr 26, 2022)

Juan said:


> i still hold that belch sucks


Hold strong


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## Kinjin (Apr 26, 2022)

19 pages  

What the hell happened here


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 26, 2022)

Kinjin said:


> 19 pages
> 
> What the hell happened here


Something that should have ended a while ago. Now we got nibbas arguing for lightspeed Bleach   .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

Lightspeed is a thing in Bleach, they even provide a more scientific explanation, but people don't know what special relativity is and start throwing a tantrum when they see LS and Bleach together.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Ningen 1 | Dislike 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 26, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Lightspeed is a thing in Bleach, they even provide a more scientific explanation, but people don't know what special relativity is and start throwing a tantrum when they see LS and Bleach together.


Or maybe

Just maybe

youre stupid lol

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Juan (Apr 26, 2022)

TWENTY 

PAGES

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Daio (Apr 26, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Or maybe
> 
> Just maybe
> 
> youre stupid lol


More refutes and less ad hominems, thank you.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 26, 2022)

Juan said:


> TWENTY
> 
> PAGES


Push for 30. Let's go even further beyond   .

Reactions: Funny 2


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Or maybe
> 
> Just maybe
> 
> youre stupid lol



Are you actually gonna respond?  You immediately attack with insults instead of actually addressing the point. I guess too much BC must've affected you to the point where you forgot what science is. 

How fast do you need to travel to make it appear that time has frozen around you and to bend the forces of gravity and inertia?


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## GregSteve (Apr 26, 2022)

Wtf is suppose to be LS?


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## Rev97 (Apr 26, 2022)

That Legos vs Clorox rematch sounding real good now

Reactions: Funny 3


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> Wtf is suppose to be LS?



Travelling so fast that you bend the forces of gravity and inertia and everything around you appears to be frozen in time for you. As you get closer to lightspeed, time gets slower and slower for you due to time dilation and it comes to a complete stop at LS travel.

There is a character in the LNs who was travelling this fast and only like 4, maybe 5 people scale to him which includes Aizen.


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## GregSteve (Apr 26, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Travelling so fast that you bend the forces of gravity and inertia and everything around you appears to be frozen in time for you. As you get closer to lightspeed, time gets slower and slower for you due to time dilation and it comes to a complete stop at LS travel.
> 
> There is a character in the LNs who was travelling this fast and only like 4, maybe 5 people scale to him which includes Aizen.


What's the quote because they're sub rel which is already within the spectrum of approaching light speed and shonen love speed tropes


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 26, 2022)

Seriously @ChaosTheory123  and a shit load of other people dealt with this lightspeed shit. If all there is is the dude talking about how shit felt slow when he was fast then you may as well throw that shit in the dumpster.


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## GregSteve (Apr 26, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Seriously @ChaosTheory123  and a shit load of other people dealt with this lightspeed shit. If all there is is the dude talking about how shit felt slow when he was fast then you may as well throw that shit in the dumpster.


Even if it is them approaching ls it could still be Sub rel or the bottom of the barrel relativistic and it's not even hate since Bleach was a lot of the banned members favorite of the HST so it was combed though better than the other 2


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 26, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> Even if it is them approaching ls it could still be Sub rel or the bottom of the barrel relativistic and it's not even hate since Bleach was a lot of the banned members favorite of the HST so it was combed though better than the other 2


Yeah. Shits just a character being really fucking fast from the looks of things. For some reason people (well certain Bleach fans) just don't want to accept that things looking slow in high speeds doesn't just translate to light speed

The same reason why KD and Number 6 aren't light speed when using their Overclock quirk in Mha. The environment seems to stop for them too



> “_*At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped*. You may notice that Hikone, who should have been crossing swords in the distance with Kenpachi, was standing right behind Aura. What kind of movement did Hikone use? It can't just be speed. While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. *Yet it is a spectacle that even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted by his reiatsu and technique*, that most people aren't even able to react immediately in the face of that seemingly beautiful movement. Only one person was capable of reacting. There was no trace of hesitation, even in the middle of crossing blades with Kenpachi, only Hisagi understood that Hikone would go to attack Aura immediately, in order to protect Aura's rear, he stood in Hikone's way._



"Appear to an observer"

"Under the *Illusion* that the surrounding environment stopped "

(Which should end conversation right there since time hasn't actually stopped)


Not even sure why I brought this shit up when one of the few nibbas propping it up is Keishin   .

Reactions: Funny 3


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## GregSteve (Apr 26, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> Yeah. Shits just a character being really fucking fast from the looks of things. For some reason people (well certain Bleach fans) just don't want to accept that things looking slow in high speeds doesn't just translate to light speed
> 
> The same reason why KD and Number 6 aren't light speed when using their Overclock quirk in Mha. The environment seems to stop for them too
> 
> ...


Because _30 pages nibba   _


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 26, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> Because _30 pages nibba  _


I'll insure this topic reaches 30 pages if my life depended on it   .


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 26, 2022)

Yes I am creating another post just to talk about how I'll create more posts if I have to. Carry on .

Reactions: Funny 3


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## T2K Baka (Apr 26, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> What's the quote because they're sub rel which is already within the spectrum of approaching light speed and shonen love speed tropes


Official translations from the narrator describing the events


They were moving so fast that to them, time appeared to stop, and they were bending the forces of gravity and inertia. This isn't a character describing what they feel. This is a narrator describing what is going on.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 26, 2022)

Yall will get responses when you post something of value that you didnt pull from the bottom of shit barrel lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sabotage (Apr 26, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 3


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## Big Bob (Apr 27, 2022)

Well guys... we did it! 20 pages!

I feel like we can hit 30 but who knows? let's see what the bleach camp has in store for us.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Keishin (Apr 27, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Lightspeed is a thing in Bleach, they even provide a more scientific explanation, but people don't know what special relativity is and start throwing a tantrum when they see LS and Bleach together.


finally some Common Sense


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## El Hermano (Apr 27, 2022)

Keishin said:


> finally some Common Sense


This actually made me laugh out loud.

Holy shit. 

He's not just a clown now. He's officially the whole fucking circus, approved by Keishin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 27, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 1 | Useful 1


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## Adamant soul (Apr 27, 2022)

20 fucking pages of the Bleach side flailing widely to protect their villain stu from the hax obliteration that's coming.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Steven (Apr 27, 2022)

Keishin said:


> finally some Common Sense

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Lightspeed is a thing in Bleach, they even provide a more scientific explanation, but people don't know what special relativity is and start throwing a tantrum when they see LS and Bleach together.



Would you say that any Bleach character who scales above Hikone is light speed ?
I mean , even if we low ball Bleach top tiers they are easily sub relativistic which is not a far cry from light speed.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> More refutes and less ad hominems, thank you.



Ad hominems is very typical in this forum.
 I dunno why though they feel the need to insult others with irrelevant words.



TrueG 37 said:


> Push for 30. Let's go even further beyond



We can do this. I can help with that. 
But I think the results are obvious since EOS Aizen not only solos Julius. But the entire Black Clover verse.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Old 1


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## Kinjin (Apr 27, 2022)

OBD 2027 is here at last 

If only @Blade was here to witness this.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> Would you say that any Bleach character who scales above Hikone is light speed ?
> I mean , even if we low ball Bleach top tiers they are easily sub relativistic which is not a far cry from light speed.


Hikone is pretty much stated to be at least lightspeed in CFYOW verbatim. There's been no refutes simply because there's nothing to refute. No amount of denial and lack of reading comprehension will change the facts.

Here's a pretty concise summary of the feat in question:


The likes of Zaraki scale to lightspeed. God tiers scale above it.

I'm just wondering if we can scale people like Gerard and Adult Toshiro to it.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> Hikone is pretty much stated to be at least lightspeed in CFYOW verbatim. There's been no refutes simply because there's nothing to refute. No amount of denial and lack of reading comprehension will change the facts.
> 
> Here's a pretty concise summary of the feat in question:
> 
> ...



This is interesting. Thanks. I never seen that quotes about Hikone. It's time to buy the 3 volumes of CFYOW.

Although wouldn't people who are ''close'' to light speed. Like relativistic characters would also be capable of making time appear slower ?
And Gerard tagged Shikai Kenpach all the time. Don't get confused about his size and assume he is slow. He is very fast. 

Adult Toshiro should be faster than Pre Bankai Kenpachi. But slower than Bankai Kenpachi. 
So I think it's safe to say he gets the Hikone scaling.


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## Keishin (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> Hikone is pretty much stated to be at least lightspeed in CFYOW verbatim. There's been no refutes simply because there's nothing to refute. No amount of denial and lack of reading comprehension will change the facts.
> 
> Here's a pretty concise summary of the feat in question:
> 
> ...


nanatsu no taizai has a character called ludociel with also a power called god speed that could be light speed.


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> It's time to buy the 3 volumes of CFYOW.


Indeed.



Xelioszzapporro said:


> Although wouldn't people who are ''close'' to light speed. Like relativistic characters would also be capable of making time appear slower ?


To my knowledge, they would _only_ make time appear to _slow down significantly_. For time to appear _stopped_ you have to reach C.

Hikone could be even faster than that though, as he blitzed everyone below from thousands of metres in the air - and one of those characters he blitzed has a stated speed.

So, it's funny because you could calculate Hikone's speed even without the blatant statements on time dilation and reach similar conclusions.

The people here need to understand they're very much _in check._



Xelioszzapporro said:


> And Gerard tagged Shikai Kenpach all the time. Don't get confused about his size and assume he is slow. He is very fast.


I know. I'm one of the few that takes his "fastest Sternritter" statement seriously.



Xelioszzapporro said:


> Adult Toshiro should be faster than Pre Bankai Kenpachi. But slower than Bankai Kenpachi.
> So I think it's safe to say he gets the Hikone scaling.


I would agree but some argue Zaraki in CFYOW was stronger than in the TYBW.


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

Keishin said:


> nanatsu no taizai has a character called ludociel with also a power called god speed that could be light speed.


I've seen something like that. Is it accepted?


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> To my knowledge, they would _only_ make time appear to _slow down significantly_. For time to appear _stopped_ you have to reach C.



Which is fair enough!



Daio said:


> Hikone could be even faster than that though, as he blitzed everyone below from thousands of metres in the air - and one of those characters he blitzed has a stated speed.



Which particular character has a stated speed ?



Daio said:


> So, it's funny because you could calculate Hikone's speed even without the blatant statements on time dilation and reach similar conclusions.



That's true also. You raised good points.



Daio said:


> The people here need to understand they're very much _in check._



They are bias against Bleach. This section in particular hates Bleach for some reason...



Daio said:


> I know. I'm one of the few that takes his "fastest Sternritter" statement seriously.



Same here. I don't get why people don't acknowledge this blatant statement. They probably think that Gerard was bragging but the only argument against it is disbelief. There is no speed anti feats done by Titan Gerard to suggest a contradiction.



Daio said:


> I would agree but some argue Zaraki in CFYOW was stronger than in the TYBW.



I mean it only takes a few months after Yhwach was defeated , right ? I don't think Zaraki got stronger during the time.


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> Which particular character has a stated speed ?


Sealed Grimmjow is stated to move exactly like one of Candice's lightning bolts:


It was Panterra Grimmjow that got blitzed. We know Resurreccion increases combat ability at least several times over.



Xelioszzapporro said:


> They are bias against Bleach. This section in particular hates Bleach for some reason...


Yeah, it's quite childish to me. 



Xelioszzapporro said:


> Same here. I don't get why people don't acknowledge this blatant statement. They probably think that Gerard was bragging but the only argument against it is disbelief. There is no speed anti feats done by Titan Gerard to suggest a contradiction.


Pretty much. Gerard scaling to Zaraki would hopefully put that nonsense to bed.



Xelioszzapporro said:


> I mean it only takes a few months after Yhwach was defeated , right ? I don't think Zaraki got stronger during the time.


Yeah, 6 months or so and the only "training" it mentions Zaraki doing is judo sparring with his company members.

If anything, he would be quite rusty after not fighting for a while; similarly to when he fought Nnoitra.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 27, 2022)

More players in the Belch camp approach to push the post count even further.


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## Keishin (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> I've seen something like that. Is it accepted?


not before but there was some new databook information that people just forgot about and it hasnt been touched since, since ppl for some reason dont want to talk about nanatsu no taizai here.


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

Keishin said:


> not before but there was some new databook information that people just forgot about and it hasnt been touched since, since ppl for some reason dont want to talk about nanatsu no taizai here.


Make a thread about it. I think even Gowther has some information that could make his abilities fire at lightspeed.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 27, 2022)

They go from ls bleach to ls pedo no taizai

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Adamant soul (Apr 27, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> They go from ls bleach to ls pedo no taizai


I mean both series mistake "making your villain as broken as possible" for "actually giving them a personality so that they're fun to read" so I guess it's a match made in heaven.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 27, 2022)

Keishin said:


> nanatsu no taizai has a character called ludociel with also a power called god speed that could be light speed.


dont you start this shit too lmao


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> Hikone is pretty much stated to be at least lightspeed in CFYOW verbatim. There's been no refutes simply because there's nothing to refute. No amount of denial and lack of reading comprehension will change the facts.



No he isn't, simply because the so caled relativity effects are just subjective, otherwise Hisagi wouldn't have been able to react even knowing what was going to happen.


Easy breakdown of what happened:

-Tokinada speaks
-Hikone and Hisagi hear, they move.
-Hikone moves 10+ km in what Hisahi moves 100m at most.


Hikone can only be said to be around 100 times faster than Hisagi, whose speed we don't know.


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> No he isn't, simply because the so caled relativity effects are just subjective,


Yes. Relativity is _relative. _Time doesn't actually stop when C is reached. That's why the words "appear" and "illusion" are used.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> otherwise Hisagi wouldn't have been able to react even knowing what was going to happen.


All he did was move due to the heads up he was given. As you said:


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> -Tokinada speaks
> -Hikone and Hisagi hear, they move.
> -Hikone moves 10+ km in what Hisahi moves 100m at most.



Explain to me how that is a strike against Hikone verbatim "distorting intertia" with his movement?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> Explain to me how that is a strike against Hikone verbatim "distorting intertia" with his movement?



Because all of those things are in the minds of those that saw him move, that's the point of the quote, they witnessed his movement but where caught by surprise by Hikone inmediately leaving the Zaraki fight and startled by the combined speed techniques seemingly breaking physics.

The time window itself was enough for Hisagi to actually move behind Aura.




Daio said:


> Yes. Relativity is _relative. _Time doesn't actually stop when C is reached. That's why the words "appear" and "illusion" are used.



Not how that works, just read Wikipedia but basically if time seems to slow down because of general relativity, Hisagi would be affected even if he is reacting to Tokinada's dialogue.


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## Piecesis (Apr 27, 2022)

Remember when Masterblack used to moderate this place. 

pepperidge farm remembers

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Big Bob (Apr 27, 2022)

These posters are lightspeed and the mods are only FWOOSH.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because all of those things are in the minds of those that saw him move, that's the point of the quote, they witnessed his movement


Yes, they saw his movements and the beauty of them is the only thing said to be of their thoughts.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> but where caught by surprise by Hikone inmediately leaving the Zaraki fight


No. They were unable to react immediately because Hikone was simply that fast.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> and startled by the combined speed techniques seemingly breaking physics.


Not "seemingly". Hikone's movement invoked time dilation and distorted gravity and inertia - verbatim. Nothing less than lightspeed would by definition "break physics" (in the context of velocity) - you realise this, right?



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The time window itself was enough for Hisagi to actually move behind Aura.


Well yeah, time didn't stop for everyone because time is relative.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Not how that works, just read Wikipedia but basically if time seems to slow down because of general relativity, Hisagi would be affected even if he is reacting to Tokinada's dialogue.


I think you need to read this sir:


Time appears to stop for Hikone but time still flows for everyone else.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> Time appears to stop for Hikone but time still flows for everyone else.



You are missing the point, Hisagi's frame of reference is the same as the characters that perceive time seemingly slowing down.

Also read the official translation.


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> You are missing the point, Hisagi's frame of reference is the same as the characters that perceive time seemingly slowing down.
> 
> Also read the official translation.


I've read it again, you're correct. What's your point?


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

Loool, I know what you're trying to do and you're wrong @lol 4th dimension reiatsu.

It's explicitly stated that no one could react immediately. Hisagi was able to move at the same time Hikone moved because he predicted what was going to happen. This doesn't scale to anyone present but Zaraki and Hikone.

Hikone's movements cause an effect akin to time dilation at C and are just outright stated to distort gravity and interia. That's at least lightspeed movement.

Finally, you can calculate Hikone's speed based on him blitzing Grimmjow from thousands of metres in the air - which will give you results even faster than that.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Apr 27, 2022)

How bout you go dilate yourself some better series to wank

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Ningen 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 27, 2022)

even if the lightspeed thing were accepted (which it aint) we never use blitzing to calculate speed because of blitzing tropes

if we did jojo characters would go from hundreds of times c to thousands in short order lmao


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## Daio (Apr 27, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> even if the lightspeed thing were accepted (which it aint)


It's legit. At least try to refute it, lol. Just accept it it's pretty unequivocal.



OtherGalaxy said:


> we never use blitzing to calculate speed because of blitzing tropes


Why? 

I'd also like to be clear that the theoretical calculation wouldn't involve calc-stacking, as only stated speeds would be used.



OtherGalaxy said:


> if we did jojo characters would go from hundreds of times c to thousands in short order lmao


What's wrong with that? I don't read the series btw.

To me it seems like a matter of case by case. Sometimes blitzes would lead to an extreme exaggeration of speed. However, that's something that would need to be proven.

Although, with all my experience of this hobby, using stated speeds to calculate another's speed has never been a problem - to my knowledge.


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## TYPE-Rey (Apr 27, 2022)

Me after checking the Obeedee after some time and this being the first thread i stumble into :

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 27, 2022)

Bleach & Black Clover deserve one another

Reactions: Funny 2


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 27, 2022)

TYPE-Rey said:


> Me after checking the Obeedee after some time and this being the first thread i stumble into :


Don't be so down on yourself man. These nibbas simply drank Bleach before posting is all   . Shit kills the brain .


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 27, 2022)

You guys have lost your fucking minds

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Keishin (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> Indeed.


good luck trying to get CFYOW, it's outsold literally everywhere. first volume alone costs $149,99


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 27, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> even if the lightspeed thing were accepted (which it aint) we never use blitzing to calculate speed because of blitzing tropes
> 
> if we did jojo characters would go from hundreds of times c to thousands in short order lmao


Kira boutta solo Bleach


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 27, 2022)

Masterblack06 said:


> You guys have lost your fucking minds


I was about to ask if you could wait until we get to 30 pages but I forgot that you aren't modding the place   .


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 27, 2022)

Let it be known that LS Belch got pushed because of what a character thought he felt basically .

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Disagree 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 27, 2022)

Doesn’t the obd accept Kuma’s lasers as lightspeed same as Kizaru? So Kuma’s lasers that MF Luffy can dodge while still getting blitzed by lightspeed Kizaru. Ftl lightspeed?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Steven (Apr 27, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> even if the lightspeed thing were accepted (which it aint) we never use blitzing to calculate speed because of blitzing tropes
> 
> if we did jojo characters would go from hundreds of times c to thousands in short order lmao


I thought Kars is by default MFTL+


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 27, 2022)

Daio said:


> It's legit. At least try to refute it, lol. Just accept it it's pretty unequivocal.
> 
> 
> Why?
> ...


The passage posted did not mention lightspeed at all, or any relation to any actual light. Speed is being extrapolated based on real life physics that have not been determined to be anything more than flowery language given the indefinite nature of the text, which brings up the feeling of being 'under an illusion'. You can't use "time felt as if it stopped" to gauge anything for reasons Chaostheory mentioned pages ago. That same phenomena will happen when you accelerate to certain speeds regardless of whether it's C or not.  


> No, time would appear to stop if you’re moving at speeds several dozen to hundreds of times faster than things relative to your own in the surrounding area should you perceive your top movement akin to how someone perceived reality based human walking, a jog, or a sprint. Nothing about this is lightspeed, it’s generic fantasy bullshit.


Chaos covered this pages ago. There's also the fact that the distortion of inertia and gravity is mentioned be a cause of this character's reiatsu, which if it were just a result of them moving fast I don't see how that would be the case.

Using a blitz to calculate speed would inherently lend itself to calc stacking because, at least in the obd, it's been required for a character to be 20x faster than another to blitz them. This is a number being applied solely by us and never mentioned in the text for pretty much any series. We'd essentially be giving 20x multipliers out the ass for every series with a blitz. JoJo was an easy example to use because it has an abundance of ftl feats and statements, but you could easily apply this to stuff like One Piece and get characters many times c when it's pretty clear in-story the top tiers are all dancing around relativistic to lightspeed right now.

If you aren't going to use the OBD's 20x number, then I'm not sure how you'd even go about calculating a blitz beyond the fact that it'd just by default be faster than whatever X character's reactions already scale to.


Steven said:


> I thought Kars is by default MFTL+


EM's original calc for him was like 40x c from what I remember
and Stand users range from 70-300
So not mftl, but still pretty fast on all fronts

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## T2K Baka (Apr 27, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> Would you say that any Bleach character who scales above Hikone is light speed ?
> I mean , even if we low ball Bleach top tiers they are easily sub relativistic which is not a far cry from light speed.


Literally only characters that scale above Hikone. Sub relativistic isn't close to LS tho. Isn't it only like 1%-5% SoL.


Xelioszzapporro said:


> I mean it only takes a few months after Yhwach was defeated , right ? I don't think Zaraki got stronger during the time.


Zaraki did get stronger, in TYBW he wasn't the strongest shinigami, but in CFYOW he was. They got a lot of zenkai boosts since that is what happens in Bleach as well.


Adamant soul said:


> I mean both series mistake "making your villain as broken as possible" for "actually giving them a personality so that they're fun to read" so I guess it's a match made in heaven.


Aizen had a pretty interesting personality.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because all of those things are in the minds of those that saw him move, that's the point of the quote, they witnessed his movement but where caught by surprise by Hikone inmediately leaving the Zaraki fight and startled by the combined speed techniques seemingly breaking physics.
> 
> The time window itself was enough for Hisagi to actually move behind Aura.
> 
> ...


The quote didn't include Hisagi as one of the people witnessing everything stopping around them. That only applied to Hikone and anyone who was on his level. Hisagi only moved because he knew Hikone wouldn't hesitate, had a lot less distance to cover, and was already moving behind Aura.

They were caught by surprise becasue they weren't expecting Hikone to just leave the fight, but Shuhei did because of his interaction with Hikone previously. So he wasn't completely caught off guard.

For relativity, time appears to slow down for you as you get closer to LS, and completely stops at LS. When it "stops" for you, it doesn't stop for others. It's relative to the person travelling fast.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> You are missing the point, Hisagi's frame of reference is the same as the characters that perceive time seemingly slowing down.
> 
> Also read the official translation.


Hisagi's frame of reference isn't the same as Hikone's. He was just prepared to move and made it just in time. Without prep time, he would normally be blitzed or caught off guard just like the others.


OtherGalaxy said:


> The passage posted did not mention lightspeed at all, or any relation to any actual light. Speed is being extrapolated based on real life physics that have not been determined to be anything more than flowery language given the indefinite nature of the text, which brings up the feeling of being 'under an illusion'. You can't use "time felt as if it stopped" to gauge anything for reasons Chaostheory mentioned pages ago. That same phenomena will happen when you accelerate to certain speeds regardless of whether it's C or not.
> Chaos covered this pages ago. There's also the fact that the distortion of inertia and gravity is mentioned be a cause of this character's reiatsu, which if it were just a result of them moving fast I don't see how that would be the case.


Physics in Bleach operate the same as real life for the most part. They've established this in the series. You can't dismiss it as flowery language because of a bias you might have or not. Figure of speech, flowery language, etc can't be the case here, they made it clear that it was due to the speed they are travelling at. Chaostheory didn't address anything, according to relativity time only stops which you reach SoL. Time will appear to slow down for you as you move get faster, but it never stops for you until you reach LS.

The distortion of gravity and inertia was due to their speed. They were using a combined high movement speed technique that uses reiatsu to move that fast. That's why reiatsu is mentioned. I didn't think I had to explain what relativity is here and I guess I need to explain what a figure of speech is as well since some people don't understand what that is either apparently. Their bias is clear, and they can't seem to put that aside either, instead they instantly resorted to ad hominem attacks instead.

I can give you an example of a figure of speech using time stop from the same book where Aura stops a collapsing building from falling. Using telekinesis, pieces of the falling building was stopped mid air and it "appeared that time was stopped". We know this has nothing to do with speed because it isn't mentioned, we know it's not some time stop hax because she doesn't have an ability like that. This is what you can consider a figure of speech.

Hikone's example is that they were travelling at such speeds that it time appeared to have stopped around them, a phenomenon that happens at the SoL. This can't be dismissed as some figure of speech because we are explicitly told that it's due to their speed. Then they mention that to the others it seemed instantaneous and that they were bending the forces of gravity and inertia. A figure of speech doesn't go into this much accurate detail to describe what is happening at LS travel.

The argument isn't Hikone felt time had stopped which is LS travel. It's the narrator described the events and to Hikone who was travelling so fast that time appeared to stop and was bending the forces of gravity and inertia due to the movement. This only occurs at SoL and that's why Hikone was travelling at LS.

If I was travelling at the SoL, then time would appear to stop for me, but to you it would be as if I'm moving extremely fast and it doesn't stop for you. This is called special relativity and people should be reading into this before replying with "figure of speech", "flowery language", etc. The first thing I got was someone barking like a dog because their brain got fried when they saw LS and Bleach together in the same sentence. The next person came in and twisted my argument into something that I never claimed, must've been the poor reading comprehension they had. They blatantly lied about my position because of their dislike for Bleach which they are free to do so. That's not important whether they like Bleach or not, but it shows how disingenuous they are if they twist and change my stance.



OtherGalaxy said:


> That same phenomena will happen when you accelerate to certain speeds regardless of whether it's C or not.


No this is wrong, time will never appear to stop for you until you reach SoL. It could get slower and slower for you as you're approach it, but will never stop until you reach C.

t' = t * sqrt(1-(v/c)2 is the time dilation equation, with:


```
t = the time experienced by the reference frame of the earth, or a "stationary" frame

t' (t-prime) = the time experienced by whatever is moving at speed v

c = the speed of light
```

You can substitute the numbers and when you put in the speed of light for v. The time experienced by the person would be 0.


So, until you reach SoL, you will never experience 0 time. You could get closer and closer, but never zero, until you reach c.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Adamant soul (Apr 27, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Aizen had a pretty interesting personality.


Oh please, a plank of wood has more personality than Aizen. 
You can smack things with a plank of wood and at least get some enjoyment out of it.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 27, 2022)

Adamant soul said:


> Oh please, a plank of wood has more personality than Aizen.


Lmao, that's pushing it. Aizen was a cool character. Bit of a troll as well. He always got Toshiro to find his girl getting stabbed. The Espada had some good personalities as well. Syzel , Grimmjow, Barrigan. Then you got Gin and Tosen.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Literally only characters that scale above Hikone. Sub relativistic isn't close to LS tho. Isn't it only like 1%-5% SoL.



''Close'' is subjective. I consider 1% to 5% SoL as close.



T2K Baka said:


> Zaraki did get stronger, in TYBW he wasn't the strongest shinigami, but in CFYOW he was. They got a lot of zenkai boosts since that is what happens in Bleach as well.



In the manga when Gerard fights Kenpachi. There is a statement that says. ''The strongest of the Shinigami and the strongest Quincy clash''
And the CFYOW says the same.

I don't see much of evidence to suggest Kenpachi got any stronger between a period of months. It's possible of course since we dunno what he did. But we have no clarification.



Adamant soul said:


> Oh please, a plank of wood has more personality than Aizen.
> You can smack things with a plank of wood and at least get some enjoyment out of it.



Lol , Adamant you made me laugh. I mean I can agree that Aizen is a bit overrated in terms of character since at the end of the day he is a superficial narcissist with god complex. But he is not less interesting than a plank of wood lmao


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## Adamant soul (Apr 27, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Lmao, that's pushing it.


Nope, if anything I'm underselling how boring this fucker is.

He is quite literally the villainous equivalent of watching paint dry and almost single-handily carried the series straight into the dirt.


T2K Baka said:


> Aizen was a cool character.


If by cool you mean boring, then yes.


T2K Baka said:


> Bit of a troll as well. He always got Toshiro to find his girl getting stabbed.


"Bit of a troll"? being a troll is his ENTIRE personality outside of having a "god complex".

Aided by his hilariously broken Zanpaktou, which is a large part of the reason he is so fucking boring.


T2K Baka said:


> The Espada had some good personalities as well. Syzel , Grimmjow, Barrigan.


It's almost like the Espada were better characters/villains than Aizen himself was, there's a reason the exact point that the series turned to shit, is when the last Espada goes down. 


T2K Baka said:


> Then you got Gin and Tosen.


One of whom is meh and was at his best when he was Aizen's red herring in SS, while the other is complete garbage.


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## Adamant soul (Apr 27, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> Lol , Adamant you made me laugh. I mean I can agree that Aizen is a bit overrated in terms of characters since at the end of the day he is a superficial narcissist with god complex. But he is not less interesting than a plank of wood lmao


Once again, you can actually play with a plank of wood, thus gaining some level of enjoyment out of it, which inherently makes it more interesting than Aizen.

The best I can say for Aizen is that he is better than Mustache. Which isn't saying anything at all really given the latter is just everything bad about Aizen dialled up to 11.

It's actually quite the feat on Kubo's part that he managed to make an even worse villain than Aizen, I'll give him that much at least.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Steven (Apr 27, 2022)

In which world is Aizen a interesting character?

The only good thing about him is the "Just as planned" meme.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

Adamant soul said:


> Once again, you can actually play with a plank of wood, thus gaining some level of enjoyment out of it, which inherently makes it more interesting than Aizen.
> 
> The best I can say for Aizen is that he is better than Mustache. Which isn't saying anything at all really given the latter is just everything bad about Aizen dialled up to 11.
> 
> It's actually quite the feat on Kubo's part that he managed to make an even worse villain than Aizen, I'll give him that much at least.



So would you say that Aizen and Yhwach are the worst villains in the whole Bleach ?
Including filler characters ?


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## Adamant soul (Apr 27, 2022)

Xelioszzapporro said:


> So would you say that Aizen and Yhwach are the worst villains in the whole Bleach ?


They're among the worst villains in Shounen, never-mind just Bleach.


Xelioszzapporro said:


> Including filler characters ?


Yes.

Muramasa is a legitimate contender for one of the best villains in Bleach, Amagai was a pretty darn effective villain given that his heel turn came so late and with no foreshadowing (though you still understand why he does what he does), Kariya and Kageroza are basically better versions of Aizen and Mustache.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

Adamant soul said:


> They're among the worst villains in Shounen, never-mind just Bleach.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Muramasa is a legitimate contender for one of the best villains in Bleach, Amagai was a pretty darn effective villain given that his heel turn came so late and with no foreshadowing (though you still understand why he does what he does), Kariya and Kageroza are basically better versions of Aizen and Mustache.



After reading your post I closed my eyes for 5 minutes and rationalized if Aizen and Yhwach are truly the worst villains ?
I kept thinking and thinking and thinking until I realized something.....

....I REALIZED that actually , you are correct... They don't have anything interesting *(minus the manipulative personality of Aizen which makes him sliiiightly interesting in terms of how he performs his plans)*

I think people get confused that Aizen and Yhwach are ''interesting'' characters simply because they are the main villains and get the most screen time....Which is wrong to equate them as interesting based on that. They don't have shit in terms of personality indeed.

So I guess you are right!! Lol...........and the funniest thing is that I was deeply acting arrogant at first like ''lol adamant has no clue of what he is saying''.... but the tables turned quickly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 27, 2022)

Aizen was decent when he was still largely an enigma & manipulator of things from behind the shadows. Wasn’t until FKT when he started going on obnoxious ass speeches that he sucked. Proceeded to just go downhill from there


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## thegoldenboy2188 (Apr 27, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Aizen had a pretty interesting personality.


...Aizen was literally just arrogant, smart, and OP. Just that. That's all his traits were. Doesn't even have a backstory or anything deeper than that other than the 'he wanted someone on his level thing' when fighting Dangai Ichigo.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Disagree 2


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Aizen was decent when he was still largely an enigma & manipulator of things from behind the shadows. Wasn’t until FKT when he started going on obnoxious ass speeches that he sucked. Proceeded to just go downhill from there



I actually do like Aizen.
All his designs are awesome and his powers are very iconic. Especially the Kyoka Suigetsu. His fights and encounters are great too.

But adamant is right , he has no character. I agree with you on the part that he is interesting when he was shown in SS as a manipulator. Cause he appeared innocent with the glassess and that personality that he was projecting....

But in the Arrancar arc and TYBW in terms of character he is shit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

Turns out that the best Bleach Villains in terms of character are....

*1.* Muramasa (No doubt about it , he is by far the most loyal and respectful villain and has a great personality. Also his dub voice is very iconic , it always stuck in my head the way he talks)

*2. *Ma nigguh Gerard Valkyrie (MIRACLE , The Kenpachi of Quincies , Heart of the Soul King , Millions of years old , can grow to infinity size in my opinion) 

*3.* Nnoitra Gilga....(Succed his goal , passionate , has a reason for fighting , dislikes if they show him pity

*4. *Szayel (scientist , appeared in novels + specials chapters , he is the Mayuri of the arrancar and has made many experiments with his brother)

*5.* Maki Ichinose....(Joined forces with the Bounts to take his revenge on the Shinigami , faithful to his captain , still got schooled by Zaraki in phylosophy and battle)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rev97 (Apr 27, 2022)

More than half the Espadas were garbage too. Especially Yammy, Zommari, and Aaroniero.

Grimmjow, Starrk and Lilynette, and Harribel the only ones I found cool.

Dordonii was pretty awesome too if you count the Privaron Espada


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 27, 2022)

A plank of woods made me feel a wide variety of emotions tbh. Much more than the blank facial expressions Aizen has  . When a punched through a stack of wood when I was younger in martial arts training I felt pride. When I got splinters and shit that can last for days I felt like getting that shit out no matter what. Once you finally do you get a relief like no other. Aizen has a god complex is about the only notable thing about him to me and I can name shit loads of other villains that have that .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 27, 2022)

And besides you're lying if you're saying a plank of wood isn't more interesting. Ever seen this absolute jackass right here?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## GregSteve (Apr 27, 2022)

TrueG 37 said:


> And besides you're lying if you're saying a plank of wood isn't more interesting. Ever seen this absolute jackass right here?


God dammit beat me to it

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 27, 2022)

Adamant soul said:


> Nope, if anything I'm underselling how boring this fucker is.
> 
> He is quite literally the villainous equivalent of watching paint dry and almost single-handily carried the series straight into the dirt.
> 
> ...



The way the top 3 Espada were handled was so trash ngl. Harribel was more of a joke, Barrigan should not have lost given how broken he was, and Starrk just decided to let himself get killed cuz everyone else was losing.

Tosen is a lot more interesting if you read CFYOW. You get a huge backstory for him.

The filler characters were pretty good for the most part, especially Muramasa. 

I liked Yhwach and all the symbolic shit with his character


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## T2K Baka (Apr 27, 2022)

thegoldenboy2188 said:


> ...Aizen was literally just arrogant, smart, and OP. Just that. That's all his traits were. Doesn't even have a backstory or anything deeper than that other than the 'he wanted someone on his level thing' when fighting Dangai Ichigo.


Fair enough


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## T2K Baka (Apr 27, 2022)

I really like Gerard's personality and I think if he had something like All-Might's VA it could work as well. Askin wasn't bad either.


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## Xelioszzapporro (Apr 27, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> I really like Gerard's personality and I think if he had something like All-Might's VA it could work as well. Askin wasn't bad either.



Yeah I like him too. Gerard is something like if you fuse All-Might , Thor and Kenpachi together into one body.

He has the voice and facial expression of All might
The clothes and hair of Thir
And the portrayal and strength of Kenpachi

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GregSteve (Apr 27, 2022)

My favorite part about Aizen is when he got blitzed and murdered by Black Clover it was a good time

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Voyeur (Apr 28, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> My favorite part about Aizen is when he got blitzed and murdered by Black Clover it was a good time


This.


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## Keishin (Apr 28, 2022)

GregSteve said:


> My favorite part about Aizen is when he got blitzed and murdered by Black Clover it was a good time


aizen the immortal? murdered? no lol


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## Big Bob (Apr 28, 2022)

Just show Aizen this thread and he will voluntarily kill himself.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Adamant soul (Apr 28, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> The way the top 3 Espada were handled was so trash ngl. Harribel was more of a joke, Barrigan should not have lost given how broken he was, and Starrk just decided to let himself get killed cuz everyone else was losing.


Stark didn't "let himself" get anything, Shunsui simply got the better of him at the end, which doesn't change the fact Stark was by far the best character in the Espada in spite of how little screen-time he actually got.

Harribel admittedly is saved from obscurity due to the flashback in the anime that expands on her character and actually made her memorable.

Why should Barragan not have lost? Hachigen was capable of some equally broken shit, respira in and of itself is not that broken since it can be avoided or blown away (given that its air). Now yes Soifon and Omaeda should have died but Barragan's defeat isn't nearly on the level of Tosen's sheer fucking stupidity.


T2K Baka said:


> Tosen is a lot more interesting if you read CFYOW. You get a huge backstory for him.


I'm aware of it. It does NOTHING to help him, if anything it actually makes him worse.

The fact he knew who was directly responsible for his friend's murder but chose to go after anyone and everyone EXCEPT him, innocent or not (up to and including his protege and BEST FRIEND), robs the dude of any sympathy factor he might have had. Throw in repeated dumbass jobbing due to his own stupidity and nothing else and it's impossible to take the guy seriously as a threatening antagonist either.

He fails spectacularly both as a character and as an antagonist.


T2K Baka said:


> The filler characters were pretty good for the most part, especially Muramasa.


Finally we agree on something.

The filler in general was really good in Bleach, most of the Bleach filler was better than most of the manga post-Soul Society IMO,


T2K Baka said:


> I liked Yhwach and all the symbolic shit with his character


Blegh, the only thing memorable about him is his mustache, otherwise he is terrible.

Both he and Aizen suffered from a bad case of being too OP for their own good, they're not fun to watch because they steamroll every fight (unless they're actively being dumb and not using their ability for whatever reason). This largely resulting in Kubo writing himself into a corner with both of them, necessitating some really bad dues ex machina and sheer stupidity to take down both of them.

Say what you will about Frieza now, but Namek Frieza was loaded with personality and was legitimately intimidating. We got to see him meet his match in each form (ie we actually got really good fight scenes from him and his transformations weren't unnecessary), there was always an option waiting to be used on him in the background (be it the spirit bomb or super saiyan) so things never seemed hopeless. Not to mention while you could say Frieza shouldn't have toyed with him, he had no way of knowing what was going to happen, whereas Aizen and Mustache KNEW about Ichigo's retarded potential and willingly allowed him to reach it.

Frieza was a good villain, Aizen and Mustache were not.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 28, 2022)

Adamant soul said:


> Stark didn't "let himself" get anything, Shunsui simply got the better of him at the end, which doesn't change the fact Stark was by far the best character in the Espada in spite of how little screen-time he actually got.


Starrk after losing Lilynette, kinda stopped caring. You kinda see him just looking around and noticing that everyone was losing. Aizen wasn't doing anything to help, and he was gonna be alone, so he basically just let it happen. I do agree Shunsui was stronger and did get the better of him at the end, but he did stop trying.  Starrk's potential was completely wasted.


Adamant soul said:


> Why should Barragan not have lost? Hachigen was capable of some equally broken shit, respira in and of itself is not that broken since it can be avoided or blown away (given that its air). Now yes Soifon and Omaeda should have died but Barragan's defeat isn't nearly on the level of Tosen's sheer fucking stupidity.


Hachigen was able to do broken shit, but the fact that respira was aging kido and shit, that last part was an asspull. Soifon and Omaeda should've been yeeted from very early on, but Hachi's kido was too convenient imo. Tosen's loss and death was pretty stupid ngl and I agree it was worse than Barrigan.


Adamant soul said:


> I'm aware of it. It does NOTHING to help him, if anything it actually makes him worse.
> 
> The fact he knew who was directly responsible for his friend's murder but chose to go after anyone and everyone EXCEPT him, innocent or not (up to and including his protege and BEST FRIEND), robs the dude of any sympathy factor he might have had. Throw in repeated dumbass jobbing due to his own stupidity and nothing else and it's impossible to take the guy seriously as a threatening antagonist either.


I disagree. He knew who was responsible for his friend, but literally couldn't do shit. What was he gonna do as some random not even in the Gotei 13 yet? Run up to the royal area and try to kill Tokinada with his hands? He was at an all time low and Aizen came in and gave him an opportunity which he took. Tosen decided to take it a step at a time and he was slowly gonna get there as Aizen replaces the SK (according to the plan) and then gives Tosen the opportunity to kill Tokinada. Speaking of him, he's a pretty good villain as well. He's just some psycho that wants to watch everything get destroyed. His whole family history is pretty interesting as well.

But Tosen's part, at least we understand why he made his decisions. His view of justice differed from his friend's and we see why.


Adamant soul said:


> Both he and Aizen suffered from a bad case of being too OP for their own good, they're not fun to watch because they steamroll every fight (unless they're actively being dumb and not using their ability for whatever reason). This largely resulting in Kubo writing himself into a corner with both of them, necessitating some really bad dues ex machina and sheer stupidity to take down both of them.


Agreed. They were both too OP, especially Yhwach. He was essentially winning and then the deus ex machina came in and stopped his powers. Hopefully the ending is much better in the anime, but it wasn't a good ending. The only time that was exciting to watch Yhwach's fight was vs Ichibei who looked like he won, until the Almighty came in.


Agree with the Frieza stuff.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 28, 2022)

Ugh.
An argument about quality?
What do you think it's this? An art exhibition?
I'd rather go back to the time stop or relativistic discussion.


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## Big Bob (Apr 28, 2022)

Can't wait to see how all this discussion about belch villain quality ties into how they lose against BC.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Adamant soul (Apr 28, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Starrk after losing Lilynette, kinda stopped caring. You kinda see him just looking around and noticing that everyone was losing. Aizen wasn't doing anything to help, and he was gonna be alone, so he basically just let it happen. I do agree Shunsui was stronger and did get the better of him at the end, but he did stop trying.  Starrk's potential was completely wasted.


He only "lost Lilynette" in the anime, that never happened in the manga. Stark NEVER stopped trying, even managing a big hit against Shunsui (after Shunsui got one on him) and the two went blow for blow for a bit before Shunsui got the better of him. So no he did not "let himself die".

I also don't think his potential was wasted. He had a satisfying character arc, where he was fighting for his new comrades and helped show that even a Hollow could yearn for companionship and was more merciful than his Soul Reaper counterpart.

He also curbed two Masked Vaizard Captains and took one of the strongest Captains in Soul Society at the time to the brink of using Bankai, so it's not like he lacks feats especially by Espada standards. I don't see how his potential was "wasted" to be perfectly honest.


T2K Baka said:


> Hachigen was able to do broken shit, but the fact that respira was aging kido and shit, that last part was an asspull.


How? Hachigen teleported his arm into Barragan, creating a hole in his anti-respira field so it would age him. How is that an asspull? There was nothing for respira to age away in that instance, Hachi cleverly turned Barragan's own ability against him.

If anything the issue with it is that Hachigen could have done it and ended the fight at any time. He didn't actually need Soi Fon's help.


T2K Baka said:


> Soifon and Omaeda should've been yeeted from very early on,


Obviously I agree on this.


T2K Baka said:


> but Hachi's kido was too convenient imo.


I mean he had to sacrifice an arm to do it so it wasn't that "conveniant".

Not to mention we'd already seen Kido used to stop time (by Hachigen's superior no less) so nothing Hachigen did was that outlandish by comparison. If anything all it proves is that Kido was an underappreciated and unexplored discipline for the Soul Reapers. That being the only time it was allowed to really shine in combat.


T2K Baka said:


> Tosen's loss and death was pretty stupid ngl and I agree it was worse than Barrigan.





T2K Baka said:


> I disagree. He knew who was responsible for his friend, but literally couldn't do shit. What was he gonna do as some random not even in the Gotei 13 yet? Run up to the royal area and try to kill Tokinada with his hands? He was at an all time low and Aizen came in and gave him an opportunity which he took. Tosen decided to take it a step at a time and he was slowly gonna get there as Aizen replaces the SK (according to the plan) and then gives Tosen the opportunity to kill Tokinada.


And he couldn't have told Aizen that he would serve him ON THE CONDITION that Aizen kill Tokinada first because?

This at least would have made sense with Tosen allowing himself to be rigged to blow (since his biggest goal would be achieved), justify why he's loyal to a fucking sociopath like Aizen and explain why he's willing to go after even innocent people who he's fond of on Aizen's behalf.

As it stands it doesn't really make sense to me.


T2K Baka said:


> Speaking of him, he's a pretty good villain as well. He's just some psycho that wants to watch everything get destroyed. His whole family history is pretty interesting as well.


I actually agree from what I've heard.

He basically uses Kyouka Suigetsu like how Aizen should have. He's powerful but not "soloes five Captains in his sleep" levels of stupidly overpowered and he's just having fun with it.


T2K Baka said:


> But Tosen's part, at least we understand why he made his decisions.


I don't, the sheer lack of any hesitation he has to try and kill his best friend doesn't make any sense to me.


T2K Baka said:


> His view of justice differed from his friend's and we see why.


But it's not justice at that point, he's literally going after people that have NOTHING to do with his friend's death. Dude's just out for blood and doesn't give a shit anymore, which again doesn't make sense with Tokinada still being alive.


T2K Baka said:


> Agreed. They were both too OP, especially Yhwach. He was essentially winning and then the deus ex machina came in and stopped his powers. Hopefully the ending is much better in the anime, but it wasn't a good ending. The only time that was exciting to watch Yhwach's fight was vs Ichibei who looked like he won, until the Almighty came in.
> 
> 
> Agree with the Frieza stuff.


Yep, it's a tough balance to strike but a villain needs to be powerful eough to be a threat but not SO powerful they're basically untouchable without shenanigans.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 28, 2022)

Adamant soul said:


> He only "lost Lilynette" in the anime, that never happened in the manga. Stark NEVER stopped trying, even managing a big hit against Shunsui (after Shunsui got one on him) and the two went blow for blow for a bit before Shunsui got the better of him. So no he did not "let himself die".
> 
> I also don't think his potential was wasted. He had a satisfying character arc, where he was fighting for his new comrades and helped show that even a Hollow could yearn for companionship and was more merciful than his Soul Reaper counterpart.
> 
> He also curbed two Masked Vaizard Captains and took one of the strongest Captains in Soul Society at the time to the brink of using Bankai, so it's not like he lacks feats especially by Espada standards. I don't see how his potential was "wasted" to be perfectly honest.


Fair enough, in the anime it was kinda portrayed differently and the anime was the last thing I remember. I need to re-read the manga since there's a lot of changes in the anime vs the manga. The part where they mention that any damage Ichigo takes as a soul gets transferred to his real body is taken out from the anime, so there are a few things missing. 

I feel like he could've survived and helped guide the other espada and arrancars together through a more compassionate means along with Harribel, and maybe became a bigger factor in TYBW. All the Espada could learn Segunda Etapa apparently, so he would've had a powerboost to keep up with the Nazi empire. 

The 2 Vizard captains who became fodder in the next arc, and the next head captain who didn't go bankai. Then again the other 2 espada who were fighting went against fodder captains (Toshiro was fodder at the time imo), so you got a point here. 


Adamant soul said:


> How? Hachigen teleported his arm into Barragan, creating a hole in his anti-respira field so it would age him. How is that an asspull? There was nothing for respira to age away in that instance, Hachi cleverly turned Barragan's own ability against him.
> 
> If anything the issue with it is that Hachigen could have done it and ended the fight at any time. He didn't actually need Soi Fon's help.


Yes that was convenient. Respira shouldn't have worked on himself, that was just something that happened to work because they would've lost if it didn't. Maybe if he got some seal like Kisuke did on Aizen and sealed him from the inside, but him dying to his own ability is dumb imo despite the potential symbolism there. 


Adamant soul said:


> I mean he had to sacrifice an arm to do it so it wasn't that "conveniant".
> 
> Not to mention we'd already seen Kido used to stop time (by Hachigen's superior no less) so nothing Hachigen did was that outlandish by comparison. If anything all it proves is that Kido was an underappreciated and unexplored discipline for the Soul Reapers. That being the only time it was allowed to really shine in combat.


Sacrificing an arm lmao. That's the biggest problem with Bleach and honestly I've seen in BC as well. All this shit with losing an arm, or being critically injured makes it look like the stakes are high, but then Orihime comes in and brings it back, just like how Mimosa comes in to heal the day and if she's out of mana, Charmy gives her mana. The high stakes are all gone here and the sacrifice means nothing. 

I do agree that Kido was extremely underutilized in the series. The special Kido of timestop, and teleportation along with all the potential it had should've been explored, but it didn't unfortunately. Maybe Kido becomes more prominent in the new hell arc, if it becomes a thing. Now that Ichigo can actually control his reiatsu, he could also learn it as well.  


Adamant soul said:


> nd he couldn't have told Aizen that he would serve him ON THE CONDITION that Aizen kill Tokinada first because?
> 
> This at least would have made sense with Tosen allowing himself to be rigged to blow (since his biggest goal would be achieved), justify why he's loyal to a fucking sociopath like Aizen and explain why he's willing to go after even innocent people who he's fond of on Aizen's behalf.
> 
> As it stands it doesn't really make sense to me.


They had an agreement that Tokinada was to die by Tosen's hand. The problem is that Tosen's sense of justice where he believed that everyone involved with the Shinigami is corrupt. They were blindly following a corrupt system without any question and to him they all should be eliminated. To destroy the Shinigami, he was going to do it from within as a captain and he asked Aizen that if he starts to join their side, he should kill him instantly which is what Aizen did after Tosen started having a slight change of heart. 

To him those innocent people were for the greater good and he believed in the same ideals as Aizen. That the SS needed to change from their broken system. It started with Tokinada, but then went beyond him.


Adamant soul said:


> I actually agree from what I've heard.
> 
> He basically uses Kyouka Suigetsu like how Aizen should have. He's powerful but not "soloes five Captains in his sleep" levels of stupidly overpowered and he's just having fun with it.


I don't think he could use KS better than Aizen, but he does use it well. His zanpakuto can copy other abilities and he uses Yamamoto's, Aizen's, Gin's, and even Hanataro's abilities. He wasn't as powerful as Aizen so his KS effects weren't as strong and his flames were weaker than Yama's as well. He was still pretty strong though. 


Adamant soul said:


> I don't, the sheer lack of any hesitation he has to try and kill his best friend doesn't make any sense to me.


Again, he had warped sense. That's due to all the vengeance he wanted and was blinded by it. To him, all the things he's done was for the greater good for all of SS. Taking down the Gotei 13 and the SK, and replacing the entire system. 


Adamant soul said:


> But it's not justice at that point, he's literally going after people that have NOTHING to do with his friend's death. Dude's just out for blood and doesn't give a shit anymore, which again doesn't make sense with Tokinada still being alive.


To him, everyone involved is part of the system that caused the death of his friend. He wanted to change the system which is why he joined Aizen because of their similar ideals. He was going to kill Tokinada, but that was going to be later on, which didn't happen because he got yeeted by Aizen since he started having a change of heart.


Adamant soul said:


> Yep, it's a tough balance to strike but a villain needs to be powerful eough to be a threat but not SO powerful they're basically untouchable without shenanigans.


Agreed. That's probably why Tokinada and all the other filler villains were good. Aizen and Yhwach both had reality warping powers, with Aizen more of having constant evolution and a desire granting device, while Yhwach has one of the most broken powers ( Omni-Precog, Powernull, and fate manipulation all in one ability). It kinda made it hard for them to win in a sensible way. At least with Aizen, Ichigo sacrifices all his power to oneshot him and seal him away. He did get it back, but that makes sense, it's part of his soul so it would just take a shit ton of time to recover. They just stabbed him with a sword that jump-started it tho.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## Steven (Apr 28, 2022)

Ulq was not bad

Aizen suxs

Discount Adolf Hitler also suxs

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sablés (Apr 28, 2022)

Oh damn, it got to page 20.


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## Keishin (Apr 28, 2022)

Steven said:


> Ulq was not bad
> 
> Aizen suxs
> 
> Discount Adolf Hitler also suxs


Just say you dont understand bleach and move on.


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## Big Bob (Apr 28, 2022)

"Understanding" Bleach

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Steven (Apr 28, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Just say you dont understand bleach and move on.


Ok Keishin
This is the best part about Yeewack

His mustache

Reactions: Like 1 | Ningen 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 28, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Physics in Bleach operate the same as real life for the most part. They've established this in the series. You can't dismiss it as flowery language because of a bias you might have or not. Figure of speech, flowery language, etc can't be the case here, they made it clear that it was due to the speed they are travelling at. Chaostheory didn't address anything, according to relativity time only stops which you reach SoL. Time will appear to slow down for you as you move get faster, but it never stops for you until you reach LS.


Me and others are dismissing the language because it's _deliberately ambiguous as fuck_. If it wasn't, then we might not be having this discussion, but the use of words such as "felt like" "appeared to be in an illusion" etc do not strengthen the argument that this is supposed to be a real life physical phenomenon.


T2K Baka said:


> The distortion of gravity and inertia was due to their speed. They were using a combined high movement speed technique that uses reiatsu to move that fast. That's why reiatsu is mentioned. I didn't think I had to explain what relativity is here and I guess I need to explain what a figure of speech is as well since some people don't understand what that is either apparently. Their bias is clear, and they can't seem to put that aside either, instead they instantly resorted to ad hominem attacks instead.


Reiatsu is given as the literal reason inertia and gravity are warped in the text.


T2K Baka said:


> I can give you an example of a figure of speech using time stop from the same book where Aura stops a collapsing building from falling. Using telekinesis, pieces of the falling building was stopped mid air and it "appeared that time was stopped". We know this has nothing to do with speed because it isn't mentioned, we know it's not some time stop hax because she doesn't have an ability like that. This is what you can consider a figure of speech.



So they use the exact same terminology, and in neither case is the speed of light actually alluded to, but in one of them it's a strict scientific use of relativity.

Uh huh.....


T2K Baka said:


> Hikone's example is that they were travelling at such speeds that it time appeared to have stopped around them, a phenomenon that happens at the SoL. This can't be dismissed as some figure of speech because we are explicitly told that it's due to their speed. Then they mention that to the others it seemed instantaneous and that they were bending the forces of gravity and inertia. A figure of speech doesn't go into this much accurate detail to describe what is happening at LS travel.
> 
> The argument isn't Hikone felt time had stopped which is LS travel. It's the narrator described the events and to Hikone who was travelling so fast that time appeared to stop and was bending the forces of gravity and inertia due to the movement. This only occurs at SoL and that's why Hikone was travelling at LS.
> 
> If I was travelling at the SoL, then time would appear to stop for me, but to you it would be as if I'm moving extremely fast and it doesn't stop for you. This is called special relativity and people should be reading into this before replying with "figure of speech", "flowery language", etc. The first thing I got was someone barking like a dog because their brain got fried when they saw LS and Bleach together in the same sentence. The next person came in and twisted my argument into something that I never claimed, must've been the poor reading comprehension they had. They blatantly lied about my position because of their dislike for Bleach which they are free to do so. That's not important whether they like Bleach or not, but it shows how disingenuous they are if they twist and change my stance.


This literally is not what the text says though


Here is the exact excerpt you originally posted


> _*At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped*. You may notice that Hikone, who should have been crossing swords in the distance with Kenpachi, was standing right behind Aura. What kind of movement did Hikone use? It can't just be speed. While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. *Yet it is a spectacle that even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted by his reiatsu and technique*, that most people aren't even able to react immediately in the face of that seemingly beautiful movement. Only one person was capable of reacting. There was no trace of hesitation, even in the middle of crossing blades with Kenpachi, only Hisagi understood that Hikone would go to attack Aura immediately, in order to protect Aura's rear, he stood in Hikone's way._”



"It would appear as if they're under the illusion"

You're also ignoring that the text _immediately says Hikone was not using speed_ and that they used some other kind of technique and this is followed by saying inertia and gravity were distorted by his reiatsu and that technique.


> _What kind of movement did Hikone use?* It can't just be speed.*_



This alone pretty much shoots down any idea that Hikone was moving at lightspeed.


T2K Baka said:


> No this is wrong, time will never appear to stop for you until you reach SoL. It could get slower and slower for you as you're approach it, but will never stop until you reach C.
> 
> t' = t * sqrt(1-(v/c)2 is the time dilation equation, with:
> 
> ...


No-one is saying time actually stops the faster you go, they're saying it would appear to relative to your surroundings regardless of whether or not you've reached C


That said, this doesn't really matter since the text explicitly says what Hikone did was not accomplished through speed.


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## accountmaker (Apr 28, 2022)

Wtf is this? Asta was outright immune to his verse's equivalent to reaitsu crush. Aizen is a shinigami, i.e a supernatural entity so he gets blitzed and one shotted. His immortality comes from the Hyogoku, a supernatural rock, so that gets bypassed too. How the hell did this make it to 20 pages?


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## Voyeur (Apr 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> How the hell did this make it to 20 pages?


Keishin and his heralds

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Daio (Apr 28, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> Using a blitz to calculate speed would inherently lend itself to calc stacking because, at least in the obd, it's been required for a character to be 20x faster than another to blitz them. This is a number being applied solely by us and never mentioned in the text for pretty much any series.


Well, yeah. That's just an arbitrary value that holds no real weight.



OtherGalaxy said:


> We'd essentially be giving 20x multipliers out the ass for every series with a blitz. JoJo was an easy example to use because it has an abundance of ftl feats and statements, but you could easily apply this to stuff like One Piece and get characters many times c when it's pretty clear in-story the top tiers are all dancing around relativistic to lightspeed right now.


I wasn't suggesting to just pull numbers out of thin air, lol.

The good thing is Hikone's speed has no contextual upper limit and thus his feat wouldn't be an "outlier", like the examples you have sited.



OtherGalaxy said:


> If you aren't going to use the OBD's 20x number, then I'm not sure how you'd even go about calculating a blitz beyond the fact that it'd just by default be faster than whatever X character's reactions already scale to.


It's quite simple. You just have to compare distances moved and use the stated speeds as the base.



OtherGalaxy said:


> Me and others are dismissing the language because it's _deliberately ambiguous as fuck_. If it wasn't, then we might not be having this discussion, but the use of words such as "felt like" "appeared to be in an illusion" etc do not strengthen the argument that this is supposed to be a real life physical phenomenon.


_Maybe _you'd have a point if that was the only thing that was said but the context is very clear on what Hikone has done. You also seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding on how relativity works.

It states "under the illusion" because at the observer's reference frame, time has stopped but for everyone else, it's still the same. Time does not universally stop at C, only one's perception of it - which is relative.



OtherGalaxy said:


> Reiatsu is given as the literal reason inertia and gravity are warped in the text.


No. It says his "reiatsu and technique" which are literally the two things he used to perform this movement. Have you actually read Bleach?

He combines Shunpo, Sonido, Hirenkyaku and Bringer Light (techniques) to perform high speed movement. They require reiatsu usage as well, self-explanatory.



OtherGalaxy said:


> So they use the exact same terminology, and in neither case is the speed of light actually alluded to, but in one of them it's a strict scientific use of relativity.
> 
> Uh huh.....


It's called context. When the next few lines talk about _interia and gravity _being distorted by _speed_ - like I have to wonder why I'm even entertaining this discussion, lol.



OtherGalaxy said:


> You're also ignoring that the text _immediately says Hikone was not using speed_


Please do go ahead and try to explain how Hikone using high-speed movement techniques to transverse a large distance is something other than speed.

Notice how Hikone moved and made it seem like he didn't move at all? That's what the "not just speed" is in reference to. The high-speed movement techniques he used made him imperceptible - that's what Sonido and Bringer Light do.



OtherGalaxy said:


> and that they used some other kind of technique and this is followed by saying inertia and gravity were distorted by his reiatsu and that technique.


Yes. High-speed movement techniques. His reiatsu ,which is involved to perform these techniques, allowed him to move fast enough to distort interia and gravity. Hmm. I wonder what that means?



OtherGalaxy said:


> No-one is saying time actually stops the faster you go,


So why is one of your refutes that: the wording is "subjective", when the concept itself (special relativity) is subjective?

This is a non-argument.



OtherGalaxy said:


> they're saying it would appear to relative to your surroundings regardless of whether or not you've reached C


Which is false. Time only slows down as you approach C. For it to appear stagnant - you must reach C.



OtherGalaxy said:


> That said, this doesn't really matter since the text explicitly says what Hikone did was not accomplished through speed.


Hilarious.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 28, 2022)

Lol


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## T2K Baka (Apr 28, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> Me and others are dismissing the language because it's _deliberately ambiguous as fuck_. If it wasn't, then we might not be having this discussion, but the use of words such as "felt like" "appeared to be in an illusion" etc do not strengthen the argument that this is supposed to be a real life physical phenomenon.


It's not ambiguous as fuck. You do realize in real life physics, when you travel at SoL, you feel as if time has stopped around you right? It doesn't stop for everything, but only for you. It's relative.  Time will appear to stop for you, but not for others.


OtherGalaxy said:


> Reiatsu is given as the literal reason inertia and gravity are warped in the text.


Reiatsu due to the high speed movement technique used to travel at that speed. I literally explained why reiatsu is provided, they don't travel LS by running normally, they can travel LS using movement speed techniques.


OtherGalaxy said:


> So they use the exact same terminology, and in neither case is the speed of light actually alluded to, but in one of them it's a strict scientific use of relativity.
> 
> Uh huh.....


So you literally ignored everything I said. One case was literally someone holding pieces of a collapsing building and one person was moving so fast that it appeared to stop time. 


OtherGalaxy said:


> This literally is not what the text says though
> 
> 
> Here is the exact excerpt you originally posted


Yes, I used an unofficial translation because I was lazy since I couldn't copy and paste the official ones.

Here is what the official translations say.



> Those who have witnessed that moment *felt as though time had stopped around them*. Far in the sky Hikone, who should have been fighting Kenpachi Zaraki, had come to stand behind Aura. They had likely used *all kinds of hoho to do it*. It was not just their speed that was odd. Even coming from such a high point at a speed that was close to instantaneous, they hadn't as much raised a cloud of dust where they came to stand. The scene made it seem almost as though they had *used spiritual pressure techniques in order to bend the forces of gravity and inertia*. Witnessing those movements, which could have been described as beautiful, most of those present weren't able to respond immediately.



They explain that the reiatsu that you are talking about was reiatsu techniques aka shunpo, sonido, bringer light, and Hirenkyaku.


OtherGalaxy said:


> "It would appear as if they're under the illusion"
> 
> You're also ignoring that the text _immediately says Hikone was not using speed_ and that they used some other kind of technique and this is followed by saying inertia and gravity were distorted by his reiatsu and that technique.


Except Hikone was using speed. Speed and reiatsu techniques to travel. That's literally what the text says. Even in the unofficial translations it says reiatsu and technique.


OtherGalaxy said:


> This alone pretty much shoots down any idea that Hikone was moving at lightspeed.


It doesn't, please re-read the text again.


OtherGalaxy said:


> No-one is saying time actually stops the faster you go, they're saying it would appear to relative to your surroundings regardless of whether or not you've reached C
> 
> 
> That said, this doesn't really matter since the text explicitly says what Hikone did was not accomplished through speed.


I literally gave you an equation that shows that "time stopping" will never happen at speeds lower than SoL. It won't appear to stop until you reach C. If you are going under C, then it will just appear to be slower and slower, but it will never appear to stop.

Please answer this, if you replace v with C in the equation, what is the time experienced by the person moving at t' ? We both know that t' will equal zero. That means the person travelling at SoL will experience 0 time. Don't be disingenuous here please.


The text literally talks about speed, reiatsu techniques, and bending the forces of gravity and inertia. You're selectively reading bits and taking out others. I'm assuming you know how they travel fast in Bleach, but at this point I might need to ask that as well.

Reactions: Like 1 | Ningen 1 | Old 2


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 28, 2022)

Lets make it 50 pages

Reactions: Funny 2


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 28, 2022)

the official text actually makes even _less _sense then


> Those who have witnessed that moment *felt as though time had stopped around them*. Far in the sky Hikone, who should have been fighting Kenpachi Zaraki, had come to stand behind Aura. They had likely used *all kinds of hoho to do it*. It was not just their speed that was odd. Even coming from such a high point at a speed that was close to instantaneous, they hadn't as much raised a cloud of dust where they came to stand. The scene made it seem almost as though they had *used spiritual pressure techniques in order to bend the forces of gravity and inertia*. Witnessing those movements, which could have been described as beautiful, most of those present weren't able to respond immediately.



because now instead of the one moving experiencing something akin to stopped time, it's shifted to the people who witnessed it instead, which is the exact opposite of the argument for lightspeed. You literally argued this for several pages.

I could let the less definitive language slide ("it was almost as" etc.) but the official text is the opposite of what you were initially claiming. Hikone is not experiencing time dilation from their POV at all, the onlookers are, which makes no sense whatsoever if you're trying say this means Hikone was lightspeed.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rev97 (Apr 28, 2022)

Watching paint dry is more productive than arguing with @T2K Baka

No joke too

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 28, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> the official text actually makes even _less _sense then
> 
> 
> because now instead of the one moving experiencing something akin to stopped time, it's shifted to the people who witnessed it instead, which is the exact opposite of the argument for lightspeed. You literally argued this for several pages.
> ...


Welp


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 28, 2022)

23 pages, keep it up guys .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Keishin (Apr 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Wtf is this? Asta was outright immune to his verse's equivalent to reaitsu crush. Aizen is a shinigami, i.e a supernatural entity so he gets blitzed and one shotted. His immortality comes from the Hyogoku, a supernatural rock, so that gets bypassed too. How the hell did this make it to 20 pages?



we arent here to debate weaklings like asta.


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## TrueG 37 (Apr 28, 2022)

Keishin said:


> we arent here to debate weaklings like asta.


The same "we" who spent 20+ pages debating him? Then went on about delusions of LS Bleach because if it? Delusions that not even other Bleach fans agree with you on? Nah fam sit your ass down   .

Reactions: MAXIMUM 2


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## accountmaker (Apr 28, 2022)

Keishin said:


> we arent here to debate weaklings like asta.


If Asta's weak Aizen's a non factor.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 28, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> the official text actually makes even _less _sense then
> 
> 
> because now instead of the one moving experiencing something akin to stopped time, it's shifted to the people who witnessed it instead, which is the exact opposite of the argument for lightspeed. You literally argued this for several pages.
> ...



The POV isn't from the onlookers. It's from Hikone's perspective. The person who is talking is the narrator, they are explaining what Hikone was witnessing and then they mention what Hikone did. The onlookers couldn't react to Hikone. They can't experience time dilation.

The onlookers aka the rest of the people couldn't respond properly, they couldn't see Hikone. They aren't the ones moving to the point where they distort gravity and inertia. That's Hikone. The text didn't shift POVs, you're misinterpreting the text to make it look like that and being very disingenuous right now. If you translate the Japanese to English yourself as well, you can see the POV described is Hikone's. Hikone is genderless, so you might see them be referred to as "it". The narrator is describing what would've been seen by people moving at that speed. There would be no point of mentioning that Hikone was distorting gravity and inertia if it was from the POV of the others, they wouldn't have time dilation because they aren't even moving, and they were unable to respond properly. Claiming that it was the POV of the others and that they were experiencing time dilation makes zero sense because that's how how relativity works. I can see how you might think that it was the observers that had the time dilation, but that makes no sense here. The statement is from the narrator, if it was from a character, then you could make the argument that it's not Hikone. There's also the fact that they mentioned this and then included how Hikone was moving, and then distorting gravity and inertia with his movement (due to reiatsu techniques aka combined version of all movement speed techniques).


Lets examine the text:

Time is "stopped" for a person.

Hikone's movement is described

Narrator provides what Hikone did (use all kinds of hoho), moving so fast, it was instantaneous to others.

They had moved so fast that they were bending the forces of gravity and inertia with spiritual pressure techniques.

The rest weren't able to respond immediately because of how fast Hikone was moving

This shows that the one experiencing time dilation is Hikone, not the others.

According to special relativity, it's impossible for them to experience time dilation if they aren't moving. Please do explain how it's their POV instead of just saying " it shifted POV". It makes no sense based on everything the text says.



Rev97 said:


> Watching paint dry is more productive than arguing with @T2K Baka
> 
> No joke too


You lack reading comprehension, I'm not arguing with you because you can't read text properly. Try and make an actual point instead of useless comments and twisting my stance.

I said: Anyone who scales above Hikone is FTL

You somehow read that as: He said SS arc characters are FTL


Keishin said:


> we arent here to debate weaklings like asta.


What are you on about? Asta isn't even mentioned rn lol.


TrueG 37 said:


> The same "we" who spent 20+ pages debating him? Then went on about delusions of LS Bleach because if it? Delusions that not even other Bleach fans agree with you on? Nah fam sit your ass down   .


Debates are actual discussions while you guys resorted to ad hominem attacks instantly. I provide you guys with a time dilation formula and you guys still don't understand how it works. All you've done is spam comments and emotes most of the time.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 28, 2022)

Nothing about this line sounds like it's referring to Hikone


> Those who have witnessed that moment felt as though time had stopped around them.


Please provide additional context that would indicate that. The way it's worded sounds like it's referring to multiple people, if it was referring to Hikone then this is a weird as fuck and roundabout way to say it. I don't really buy it.


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## Keishin (Apr 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> If Asta's weak Aizen's a non factor.


Comapring Aizen to Asta is like comparing a nuke to a water gun.


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## Juan (Apr 29, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Comapring Aizen to Asta is like comparing a nuke to a water gun.


this is straight up bullshit kenshing mang

aizen has NEVER gotten ANYONE wet tf

Reactions: Winner 2


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## T2K Baka (Apr 29, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> Nothing about this line sounds like it's referring to Hikone
> 
> Please provide additional context that would indicate that. The way it's worded sounds like it's referring to multiple people, if it was referring to Hikone then this is a weird as fuck and roundabout way to say it. I don't really buy it.



The way Hikone is referred to in the novel is "they". Hikone is genderless and is a combination of different souls, from hollows, to dead quincies, to even miscarriages from the world of the living. Added on with pieces of the soul king, they were created to replace the Reio. 

It's also the narrator describing what the people who've seen based on Hikone's perspective which includes Hikone, Kenpachi since he was keeping up with them, and the narrator themselves. Those that witnessed it would've called it beautiful, but nobody from the others present was able to react properly. Hisagi only got to Aura because he moved instantly and had a much shorter distance to cover compared to where Hikone was. He knew that Hikone would not hesitate which is why he got a head start. If it was any other circumstance, then Hikone would've bltized him.

The additional context is right there in the text. Why would the narrator say this and then bring up the speed Hikone was travelling at. They included how he was moving, and then went as far as mentioning that they were bending the forces of gravity and inertia with the reiatsu movement speed techniques. The only ones who were moving that fast was Hikone. 

I can definitely see what you mean by how weird it sounds, but at the end of the day it's a shit translation from VIZ and the Japanese makes more sense in it's original language. If you look at the Japanese text and translate it, it gives a better context. If it wasn't Hikone, then all those points right after make no sense to mention (Hikone's speed, technique, and being the forces of gravity and inertia). 

If you aren't convinced then, fair enough. I tried to explain it to the best I could.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## T2K Baka (Apr 29, 2022)

Juan said:


> this is straight up bullshit kenshing mang
> 
> aizen has NEVER gotten ANYONE wet tf



I think Momo got pretty wet, whether it was in bed or due to her own blood from all the times she got stabbed.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## Big Bob (Apr 29, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Comapring Aizen to Asta is like comparing a nuke to a water gun.


Yes, we all know Aizen is a water gun in comparison to the nuke that is BC.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 29, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> The way Hikone is referred to in the novel is "they". Hikone is genderless and is a combination of different souls, from hollows, to dead quincies, to even miscarriages from the world of the living. Added on with pieces of the soul king, they were created to replace the Reio.
> 
> It's also the narrator describing what the people who've seen based on Hikone's perspective which includes Hikone, Kenpachi since he was keeping up with them, and the narrator themselves. Those that witnessed it would've called it beautiful, but nobody from the others present was able to react properly. Hisagi only got to Aura because he moved instantly and had a much shorter distance to cover compared to where Hikone was. He knew that Hikone would not hesitate which is why he got a head start. If it was any other circumstance, then Hikone would've bltized him.
> 
> ...



They is used for genderless, those is just referring to a group of people, also is said those that witnessed Hikone, that whole page is never about the point of view of the kid.


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## T2K Baka (Apr 29, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> They is used for genderless, those is just referring to a group of people, also is said those that witnessed Hikone, that whole page is never about the point of view of the kid.


Those can still be used for Hikone, they're not a single being, but multiple beings in one body.  It makes no sense to mention this and then talk about Hikone's speed and go into such in-depth details about it. I get what you're saying and that's what I first thought, but it doesn't make sense for time to slow down for them if they aren't moving.

At this point tho, I don't want to continue so I'm conceding this argument. The whole Hikone thing, just forget about it I guess. Aizen also loses here in the Vs matchup.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keishin (Apr 29, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Those can still be used for Hikone, they're not a single being, but multiple beings in one body.  It makes no sense to mention this and then talk about Hikone's speed and go into such in-depth details about it. I get what you're saying and that's what I first thought, but it doesn't make sense for time to slow down for them if they aren't moving.
> 
> At this point tho, I don't want to continue so I'm conceding this argument. The whole Hikone thing, just forget about it I guess. Aizen also loses here in the Vs matchup.


aizen wont lose.


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## Big Bob (Apr 29, 2022)

Keishin said:


> aizen wont lose.


Aizen lost in the first page.


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## Keishin (Apr 29, 2022)

Big Bob said:


> Aizen lost in the first page.


Weak trolling


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## Steven (Apr 29, 2022)

Aizen with Bankai wins...wait


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Those can still be used for Hikone, they're not a single being, but multiple beings in one body.  It makes no sense to mention this and then talk about Hikone's speed and go into such in-depth details about it. I get what you're saying and that's what I first thought, but it doesn't make sense for time to slow down for them if they aren't moving.


This direct, Japanese to English translation makes more sense:

_*"At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped*."_

I don't know why anyone would interpret time stopping for anyone but Hikone, lol.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 29, 2022)

Daio said:


> This direct, Japanese to English translation makes more sense:
> 
> _*"At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped*."_
> 
> I don't know why anyone would interpret time stopping for anyone but Hikone, lol.


Its from a fucking observers PoV so that doesn’t even make any sense, its literal flowery language lol


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Its from a fucking observers PoV so that doesn’t even make any sense,


The narrator is the one speaking. The observer is Hikone himself. 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> its literal flowery language lol


Baseless. Also shows you haven't been keeping up with this thread.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 29, 2022)

Daio said:


> The narrator is the one speaking. The observer is Hikone himself.
> 
> 
> Baseless. Also shows you haven't been keeping up with this thread.


Okay, then the text switches between two PoV because it talks about it from an outside observers perspective, but also somehow from Hikone’s? Thats fucking stupid lol

ah yes, let me just read 24 pages of stupid bullshit from the bleach side, im sure thatll help me “keep up with the thread” ive been posting in since page one


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## Blocky (Apr 29, 2022)

Truly this is something that belongs in the golden age.

this thread shall be in a museum where the future generation can look back and watch

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Okay, then the text switches between two PoV because it talks about it from an outside observers perspective, but also somehow from Hikone’s? Thats fucking stupid lol


No. Here's the whole text:


“_*At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped*. You may notice that Hikone, who should have been crossing swords in the distance with Kenpachi, was standing right behind Aura. What kind of movement did Hikone use? It can't just be speed. While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. *Yet it is a spectacle that even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted by his reiatsu and technique*, that most people aren't even able to react immediately in the face of that seemingly beautiful movement. Only one person was capable of reacting. There was no trace of hesitation, even in the middle of crossing blades with Kenpachi, only Hisagi understood that Hikone would go to attack Aura immediately, in order to protect Aura's rear, he stood in Hikone's way._”
The narrator is the one describing Hikone's movement and not once is any "outsider's" perspective mentioned. 

In Hikone's frame of reference: time appears frozen. For everyone else, it's the same, hence why Hisagi literally intercepted Hikone (after travelling a much, much smaller distance).


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 29, 2022)

Daio said:


> No. Here's the whole text:
> 
> 
> “_*At that instant to an observer at that point, it would appear as if they're under the illusion that the surrounding environment's time stopped*. You may notice that Hikone, who should have been crossing swords in the distance with Kenpachi, was standing right behind Aura. What kind of movement did Hikone use? It can't just be speed. While arriving from that elevation at speed within an instant, Hikone was landing at that spot with raising a single piece of dust. *Yet it is a spectacle that even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted by his reiatsu and technique*, that most people aren't even able to react immediately in the face of that seemingly beautiful movement. Only one person was capable of reacting. There was no trace of hesitation, even in the middle of crossing blades with Kenpachi, only Hisagi understood that Hikone would go to attack Aura immediately, in order to protect Aura's rear, he stood in Hikone's way._”
> ...


It LITERALLY mentions an observer, you are so fucking stupid. It doesnt mention the narrator is the observer, it just says “an observer”.

also “it would appear as if theyre under the illusion” is either describing what Hikone thinks, which wouldnt hold any water, or is describing what it could possibly, but isnt necessarily, look like to an outside observer.

fuck off

Reactions: Funny 2


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 29, 2022)

T2K Baka said:


> Those can still be used for Hikone, they're not a single being, but multiple beings in one body. It makes no sense to mention this and then talk about Hikone's speed and go into such in-depth details about it. I get what you're saying and that's what I first thought, but it doesn't make sense for time to slow down for them if they aren't moving.



On that sense you would also use plural foe every Hollow, the apparent slow down of time is just a perception change in their minds.




T2K Baka said:


> Aizen also loses here in the Vs matchup.



He already won since nothing Julius has will work if the Kototsu failed.


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> It LITERALLY mentions an observer, you are so fucking stupid. It doesnt mention the narrator is the observer, it just says “an observer”.


This is a strawman. I never asserted that the narrator was the observer in the extract. I simply pointed out the narrator is the one describing the scene.

I said "In Hikone's frame of reference: time appears frozen."

Keep up.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> also “it would appear as if theyre under the illusion” is either describing what Hikone thinks,


It's not what Hikone "thinks' it's what he's experiencing. Which combined with:* 

"*_*it is a spectacle that even the force of gravity and inertia are distorted by his reiatsu and technique"*_

Makes it clear that the aforementioned "illusion" is a reference to time dilation. Ignoring the context of what is written, will not do you any favours.

One simply cannot be _this_ *obtuse. *



OneSimpleAnime said:


> or is describing what it could possibly, but isnt necessarily, look like to an outside observer.


It's pretty clear that the observer is the one moving, Hikone's speed is what caused the time dilation in the first place.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> fuck off


Is it too much to keep your composure when discussing the "feats" of fictional characters?

Reactions: Old 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 29, 2022)

Daio said:


> This is a strawman. I never asserted that the narrator was the observer in the extract. I simply pointed out the narrator is the one describing the scene.
> 
> I said "In Hikone's frame of reference: time appears frozen."
> 
> ...


One thing is extremely clear here, that you have no idea what you are even talking about anymore lmao

no wonder yall like Bleach, you have no reading comprehension so you cant see how bad it is


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 29, 2022)

“This is a strawman” bitch thats YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT HERE

you cant even get right what the PoV is for that sentence, youve moved the goalpost so many times or just ignore it when people point out how flowery and nonsensical the language is


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## Sablés (Apr 29, 2022)

Daio said:


> The narrator is the one describing Hikone's movement and not once is any "outsider's" perspective mentioned.


This is a failure to grasp the English language. First off. It is *impossible *to move fast enough to stop time through sheer speed. It says that time only appeared to be frozen. Should already be checking off boxes that this isn't something legitimate, but a perception of events. And perceptions uh, literally require an outsider perspective. It only means that Hikone is moving fast relative to whoever the novel specifies is watching. 

Anyway, as stated. You can't move fast enough to legitimately stop time, only alter perceptions simulating frozen time. Otherwise you're using some weird ability that can't be defined as speed, so FTL claims are bunk. Lose-Lose.


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> One thing is extremely clear here, that you have no idea what you are even talking about anymore lmao
> 
> no wonder yall like Bleach, you have no reading comprehension so you cant see how bad it is


Great refute.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> “This is a strawman” bitch thats YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT HERE


No. This is indeed a strawman. The narrator is only relevant here as he's the one that's speaking - as I said.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> you cant even get right what the PoV is for that sentence, youve moved the goalpost so many times or just ignore it when people point out how flowery and nonsensical the language is


Tis just a load of nonsense and quite ironic tbh. 



Sablés said:


> First off. It is *impossible *to move fast enough to stop time through sheer speed.


Absolutely nobody here is making that claim.



Sablés said:


> It says that time only appeared to be frozen.


That's the point. That's what time dilation is. You reach C, time appears frozen. For everyone else, time flows the same. It's relative.



Sablés said:


> but a perception of events. And perceptions uh, literally require an outsider perspective.


I'm stating that the observer is Hikone, one in his position or one "aboard his ship". You can say "outsider" but that doesn't specify where the POV is.

_*"At that instant to an observer at that point"*_



Sablés said:


> It only means that Hikone is moving fast relative to whoever the novel specifies is watching.


?



Sablés said:


> Anyway, as stated. You can't move fast enough to legitimately stop time, only alter perceptions simulating frozen time.


That wasn't the argument. You _can_ move fast enough to cause _time dilation_ which is what I'm saying has occurred for Hikone.

Time dilation isn't *literal* time-stop. Hence, why the "refutes" that pointed out the language of the text were nonsensical.



Sablés said:


> Otherwise you're using some weird ability that can't be defined as speed,


Hikone has no such ability and everything described is explicitly occurring because of his speed. His speed that "distorts gravity and inertia".

Like, why is that last note being ignored? The implications of such a statement would mean Hikone is moving at LS or faster.



Sablés said:


> so FTL claims are bunk. Lose-Lose.


Nah. As I said much earlier, this is only one aspect of the feat. You can legitimately get much higher speeds for Hikone, lol.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Keishin (Apr 29, 2022)

Is Kirinji's Kinpika LS?


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

Keishin said:


> Is Kirinji's Kinpika LS?


Probably but we don't know for sure.


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## Keishin (Apr 29, 2022)




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## TYPE-Rey (Apr 29, 2022)

Even if you were to steelman Wank-kun's  argument , truly significant time dilation begins at 30kkm/s which is nowhere near light speed either way.

Good luck getting 10 times that from that narration without a calc or without other significant evidence,

As you were.


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## Keishin (Apr 29, 2022)

30 000km/s* not 30


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 29, 2022)

Daio said:


> Probably but we don't know for sure.



Why?


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

TYPE-Rey said:


> Even if you were to steelman Wank-kun's  argument , truly significant time dilation begins at 30kkm/s which is nowhere near light speed either way.
> 
> Good luck getting 10 times that from that narration without a calc or without other significant evidence,
> 
> As you were.


Time only appears to *stop *at C, which is what happened. It appeared _frozen _not slowed down.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Why?


It seems to be light-based.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 29, 2022)

Daio said:


> Time only appears to *stop *at C, which is what happened. It appeared _frozen _not slowed down.



If you are moving, not to the observers, like the people the text is talking about.




Daio said:


> It seems to be light-based.



Because of the name?

He seems to control water with it.


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## Daio (Apr 29, 2022)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> If you are moving, not to the observers, like the people the text is talking about.


There are no "observers" (plural) only a hypothetical observer.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because of the name?


Also because the blade glows with light.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He seems to control water with it.


I don't remember this.


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## Keishin (Apr 30, 2022)

Daio said:


> Also because the blade glows with light.


kirinji was clearly a threat to yhwach and co. too when he attacks he's immediately bypassed them


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## ~Avant~ (Apr 30, 2022)

Julius just pulled an Aizen, so Julius wins on virtue of being the better character alone.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Ningen 1


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## Keishin (Apr 30, 2022)

~Avant~ said:


> Julius just pulled an Aizen, so Julius wins on virtue of being the better character alone.


bootleg aizen*


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## Rev97 (Apr 30, 2022)

And Bleach is a bootleg Yu Yu Hakusho clone

Reactions: Funny 4


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## shieldbounce (Apr 30, 2022)

Rev97 said:


> And Bleach is a bootleg Yu Yu Hakusho clone


Higher quality animation!

Better storyline and characters!

Doesn't job as hard as YYH in the powerscaling community!

A gallon of Clorox sells for 4.99!

Reactions: Funny 1 | Ningen 2


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 30, 2022)

Keishin said:


> bootleg aizen*


Not a bootleg if you do it better

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Apr 30, 2022)

He is more Saga than Aizen.


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