# SM Jiraiya vs Alive Itachi, MS Sasuke, War Arc Kakashi



## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 30, 2015)

Location: Amegakure

Distance: 50 M

Knowledge: Full for Jiraiya, manga for trio

State of mind: IC

Assume base Jiraiya is as fast as V2 Ei, his sage time won't run out.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

Is he fighting them all at once?



> Assume base Jiraiya is as fast as V2 Ei, his sage time won't run out.



He still stomps anyway assuming this.


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

holy shit the GOAT sannin wanker has returned.

jiraiya gets shit stomped.


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## SSMG (Jan 30, 2015)

Jiraiya at this speed goes in hiding with ease to activate sm. Once he goes sm he usesa frog song while blitz them all and wins with ease..


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

Jiraiya at this speed can't even react to his own speed.


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## Skywalker (Jan 30, 2015)

SM Jiraiya gets his smacked down like a disagreeable hooker.

If this was Base Jiraiya, he'd school the three of them effortlessly.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 30, 2015)

Skywalker said:


> SM Jiraiya gets his smacked down like a disagreeable hooker.
> 
> If this was Base Jiraiya, he'd school the three of them effortlessly.



Jiraiya gets V2 Ei's speed in base, but it is amplified by SM. just to clarify.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 30, 2015)

Right, so Jiraiya stomps.

You can hardly expect to give someone with as dangerous a ranged game as Jiraiya Ay's speed amplified and not expect a massacre to take place.


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## SSMG (Jan 30, 2015)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Jiraiya gets V2 Ei's speed in base, but it is amplified by SM. just to clarify.



 Damn dude why do you hate the sharigan users so much?


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## Arles Celes (Jan 30, 2015)

This is just silly.

One might as well start a Part 1 Sasuke Vs BSM Naruto, Hashirama and BM Minato thread.

...Assuming that Part 1 Sasuke for some crazy reason was given all of Kaguya's power.

Couldn't the OP just put restrictions on Uchihas(like not using a particular jutsu or MS) instead of giving Jiraiya something that he never got?

A base speed of V2 Ei amplified by SM is something that we do not even know how great it actually is nor how can Jiraiya control it.

 Besides that no one aside from God tiers should be able to handle it.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 31, 2015)

v2 is not a mode. It's a short, charged burst of shunshin. Also, War Kakashi and Healthy Itachi have better reflexes than MS Sasuke did when he went up against v2 A, so they'd react like Madara.

Sasuke could just throw up more than a rib cage and not have a problem against v2 A either. Jiraiya's definitely more versatile, but since v2 is not a mode but a concentrated burst, he'd be hit after.​


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

Kakashi kamuis totsuka and thenn warps it straight to jiraiya, thus killing him off,


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## RedChidori (Jan 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Kakashi kamuis totsuka and thenn warps it straight to jiraiya, thus killing him off,



This riiiiiiggggggghhhhhhttttt here .


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## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Kakashi gets blasted away by a Chō Odama Rasengan before he does anything.



Strategoob said:


> v2 is not a mode. It's a short, charged burst of shunshin.​



No, V2 is the fully-powered Raiton no Yoroi signaled by Ay's hair spiking up even more which allows him to use those short, charged bursts of Shunshin, not the Shunshin itself.



> Also, War Kakashi and Healthy Itachi have better reflexes than MS Sasuke did when he went up against v2 A, so they'd react like Madara.



Having better reflexes than Sasuke doesn't necessarily mean having reflexes as good as Madara's, does it?

Madara didn't react to a V2 Shunshin *further amplified by Senjutsu*, anyway.



> Jiraiya's definitely more versatile, but since v2 is not a mode but a concentrated burst, he'd be hit after.​



Susano'o doesn't save Sasuke from Yomi Numa.


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## Icegaze (Jan 31, 2015)

how much does senjutsu amplify the shunshin?? no way to know 
jiraiya still looses. 

kakashi can save them from YN. since ill just say to avoid a pointless debate that itachi and sasuke need saving from YN. despite the ridiculousness of that train of thought


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Madara didn't react to a V2 Shunshin *further amplified by Senjutsu*, anyway.



 Well, he reacted to BM Naruto who's much faster than V2 Ei.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> how much does senjutsu amplify the shunshin?? no way to know



It will amplify it just as much as it amplified base Jiraiya's in the manga, which is drastically. We don't need an exact speed. Dealing with Ay's Shunshin is hard enough. Drastically enhanced? These guys are in trouble.



> kakashi can save them from YN.



How in the mess does Kakashi save them from Yomi Numa?

But Jiraiya has full knowledge, so Kakashi dies first.



NarutoX28 said:


> Well, he reacted to BM Naruto who's much faster than V2 Ei.



I don't think BM Naruto's clone in free-fall is much faster than V2 Ay level speed amplified by being in Sage Mode.


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## Icegaze (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It will amplify it just as much as it amplified base Jiraiya's in the manga, which is drastically. We don't need an exact speed. Dealing with Ay's Shunshin is hard enough. Drastically enhanced? These guys are in trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



kakashi kamui's them to safety. it can be used that way can it now. 

actually dealing with Ay's shunshin was hard for an inexperience MS user. who somehow still got the draw. when he couldnt even manifest V1 susanoo and was crying from the pain. 

here he is fighting a user who even when sick and dying can manifest V4 and keep it moving. 

So no Ei shunshin would not be a problem for itachi, when even EMS sasuke still couldnt follow itachi hand seal speed. 

also note MS sasuke could still control enton before Ei got to him. 

As for this fanfic jiraiya. he cannot be using Ei speed and using YN. that slows him down. would be like minato using danzo type wind jutsu mid hirashin . would be pointless.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kakashi kamui's them to safety. it can be used that way can it now.



If they're inside Susano'o wouldn't the Kamui just take out a chunk of Susano'o like it did Madara's shield when 8 Gated Gai was going after it? Pretty sure it would.



> actually dealing with Ay's shunshin was hard for an inexperience MS user.



When I said it was hard to deal with I meant it was hard to visually keep track of. Sasuke wasn't able to keep a lock on Ay when he started using V2, so you can imagine how much of a mess he would have been in had Ay's speed been further bolstered by Senjutsu. He wouldn't have even been able to manifest Enton in time considering that he just barely made it when Ay had no Sage Mode boost.



> who somehow still got the draw. when he couldnt even manifest V1 susanoo and was crying from the pain.



I thought ribcage Susano'o was V1 Susano'o? Regardless, Sasuke wasn't crying from the pain until he got to Mei, later on. He was able to manifest an armored Susano'o before that- he tried burying everybody in the room with it by cutting up the pillars.

This has nothing to do with his ability to keep track of Ay, though, which is what I was getting at.



> here he is fighting a user who even when sick and dying can manifest V4 and keep it moving.



For like a minute.

That has nothing to do with reflexes, either.



> So no Ei shunshin would not be a problem for itachi, when even EMS sasuke still couldnt follow itachi hand seal speed.



When did EMS Sasuke even try to follow Itachi's handseal speed?



> As for this fanfic jiraiya. he cannot be using Ei speed and using YN. that slows him down.



Yomi Numa doesn't slow Jiraiya down because he doesn't have to stop in order to cast it.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> No, V2 is the fully-powered Raiton no Yoroi signaled by Ay's hair spiking up even more which allows him to use those short, charged bursts of Shunshin, not the Shunshin itself.



It's explicitly stated by C in its introduction to be a shunshin with a massive "tailed beast amount" build-up of chakra, which is why his hair moved upward. "v2 cloak" is a fan-made DBZ term.​


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## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's explicitly stated by C in its introduction to be a shunshin with a massive "tailed beast amount" build-up of chakra, which is why his hair moved upward. "v2 cloak" is a fan-made DBZ term.​



Don't think I ever denied that V2 was a fan-made term, that has nothing to do with what I said.

What C states is that Raikage is keeping his Chakra that active in order to counter the Mangekyō with Shunshin. "Chakra that active" as in, so active that Raikage's hair spikes even further _because_ the cloak is being used to its fullest extent, which is the entire reason why his hair stays that way _even when he isn't moving_.

He doesn't mean that all of that Chakra is going into _a_ Shunshin. That would mean that Ay has to pump out Tailed Beasts levels of Chakra in order to use that Shunshin _at all_, which just wouldn't make any sense considering that Ay's father only managed to _tie_ with the Eight Tails, and that Karin said Ay's Chakra was reaching Tailed Beast level when the only Tailed Beast she's encountered is...the Eight Tails.

He's raising his Chakra that high  in order to maintain a better shroud over a period of time, so for all intents and purposes it's a mode allowing him to use successive enhanced Shunshins as a result.


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## Mercurial (Jan 31, 2015)

Why fanfiction threads. I can do Choji with Madara's Perfect Susanoo vs the Gokage and so Choji is stronger than the Gokage, but what's the point. Anyway Kakashi and Itachi are able to react and follow V2 Ei's speed, Kakashi definitely. Itachi puts up Susanoo, Sasuke surrounds it with Enton, Kakashi leaves a clone in the Susanoo while he warps himself or moves underground away in a good position and then it's Kamui GG.

Usually, either one of the three would defeat SM Jiraiya. War Arc Kakashi low diffs, Itachi mid diffs, high diffs at worst, MS Sasuke too.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't think BM Naruto's clone in free-fall is much faster than V2 Ay level speed amplified by being in Sage Mode.



 Oh no, I agree, I'm just putting things in perspective.

 It's possible that SM might not amplify V2 Ei Level speed that much considering boosts such as CS and KN0 seemed to have gotten smaller the stronger the user got. Even Madara using Hashi's senjutsu chakra seemed very small, but again, we won't know.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> What C states is that Raikage is keeping his Chakra that active in order to counter the Mangekyō with Shunshin.



Right. He built up a tailed beast chakra build-up for one shunshin, which is exactly what C and Karin said, and why "v2" has never lasted for more than a few seconds (a shunshin.)
​


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## FlamingRain (Jan 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Right. He built up a tailed beast chakra build-up for one shunshin.​



If it was for a single Shunshin then explain to me why his hair never went down after he stopped in front of Sasuke's Enton?

I don't see where Ebisu's graph rules out building up Chakra for multiple uses of a technique.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If it was for a single Shunshin then explain to me why his hair never went down after he stopped in front of Sasuke's Enton?



It did the moment after.​


FlamingRain said:


> I don't see where Ebisu's graph rules out building up Chakra for multiple uses of a technique.



Built-up chakra is good for only one jutsu, and the rest disperses. That is the reason he stated Naruto was so inefficient with his chakra usage, and why he needed to build up less for jutsu.​


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## FlamingRain (Feb 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It did the moment after.​



That shouldn't matter. If his built-up Chakra had really all been focused into that one Shunshin it would have fallen down long before that.

When Ay appeared Sasuke brought up Enton and he halted. The Shunshin was finished at that point so his hair should have fallen, but before that ever happened Karin specified what Sasuke was attempting to do, C took note of Sasuke's ability to manipulate the shape of the flames and contemplated whether or not he was even more skilled with them than Itachi, Sasuke turned to look at Raikage, and only after that did Raikage finally say "screw it" and sacrifice his arm to attack Sasuke.



> Built-up chakra is good for only one jutsu, and the rest disperses. That is the reason he stated Naruto was so inefficient with his chakra usage, and why he needed to build up less for jutsu.​



If that were the case then maintaining techniques like Susano'o and Enton simultaneously would be impossible, even though we see it happen in canon. Meticulously gathering Chakra into the Byakugō no In for three years would also be impossible since Sakura still used other techniques in the meantime.

Ebisu's explanation was by his own admission both simplified and exaggerated. The general principle, however, can still be applied if the built-up Chakra is focused towards multiple places, because there is something of an "in-between" state after building and prior to actually expelling. Ebisu provided no reason that built up Chakra could not be maintained if properly controlled in the meantime, as the unused Chakra dispersing was only due to a lack of control/ability to reconvert on the part of the user. "Because Sasuke-kun will not be able to reconvert the extra Chakra" is what he said. Genin Sasuke specifically (Naruto himself being even worse than Sasuke), who for the purposes of the example was only attempting to use a single technique- he didn't necessarily mean it was impossible for anyone fullstop.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

Well, Bee and Naruto can store chakra and spread it out over multiple Bijuudamas. I'd think it's safe to say for elite ninjas that chakra can be stored for multiple techniques.


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## Icegaze (Feb 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If they're inside Susano'o wouldn't the Kamui just take out a chunk of Susano'o like it did Madara's shield when 8 Gated Gai was going after it? Pretty sure it would.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Both Kakashi and itachi reflexes vastly exceed in experienced MS sasuke 
So they would have no issues putting up auto defenses 

I do like what you said though if only ichibe agreed. Kakashi cannot use kamui to support or against itachi if itachi has susanoo up . It would just take a chunk out of it 

As for YN being a treat it won't be Yata beats it . Susanoo can move the fact that the mirror can't is irrelevant. It's wing weildwd by a chakra structure that can move and put the shield right below it's torso 

Ei and minato don't use jutsu for a reason 
Fighting at those speed essentially means ninjutsu requiring hand seals are out of the question 

Imagine minato trying to use Danzo jutsu after a hirashin 

What's the point of gettin to the enemy so quick if u then need to use seals and attack the enemy with a relatively slow attack 

YN is slower than any of minato or Ei attacks

Btw Ei can obviously maintain his max shroud 
With more difficult of course than his base shroud 
It's chakra not too different from susanoo for example

the constant use of it would tire out Ei but won't be anytime soon. He doesn't always need to power up after every max shushin
That would make him quite abit weaker than he actually is


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## StarWanderer (Feb 1, 2015)

Even with V2 Ei's speed, 3 of them are too much. War Arc Kakashi is at least as fast as V1 Ei + MS Sasuke who could react to V2 Ei a little bit. Plus, alive Itachi.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 1, 2015)

What is wrong with your tier list?

Hebi Sasuke and Sasori above Gaara?

Why is Tsunade above Ohnoki and Gaara? Why are the Sannin so high? 

Jiraya gets fucked either one can solo


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## Icegaze (Feb 1, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> What is wrong with your tier list?
> 
> Hebi Sasuke and Sasori above Gaara?
> 
> ...



wrong thread maybe?
or maybe you talking to that star person. i dont see his posts. 

hebi sasuke above gaara. shocks me equally, so does sasori. 

onoki above gaara makes perfect sense. however tsunade above either onoki or gaara makes me laugh

because people love to give sannin undue hype. Tsunade however had so much potential if only kishi cared more for her. orochimaru was a fail character once part 2 started.

this jiraiya they speak of is a fanfic one much stronger than the actual one. but yes any MS user can beat jiraiya


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 2, 2015)

Full knowledge means Ma blows a Dust Cloud [1] to disallow targeting from Ocular Genjutsu, Amaterasu and Kamui (Dojutsu variants dependent on AOS). 

From there, superior shunshin speed (V2 Ei + Sage Mode) and advanced sensory abilities (Sage Mode, Ma's Tongue, Canopy Barrier) result in the death of the three combatants, assuming Kakashi doesn't warp them out of the cloud immediately. 

Even then, that only buys them time, as Jiraiya will find them again, blow another dust cloud, and begin hunting them again in the rift of vision.

On top of all this, Itachi, Sasuke and Kakashi have never witnessed Yomi Numa, Frog Call, Frog Song, Frog Oil Flame Bullet or Food Cart Destroyer, all valid tactics for defeating all of them in the cloud.

Before anyone suggests the Sharingan grants them the ability to even remotely perceive these attacks in the cloud, refer to the manga where Nagato's Paths, with the Rinnegan (superior ocular device), were unable to effectively avoid the blindside tactics of Sage Mode Naruto to the point of Nagato not knowing the location of one of the path's captured by Gamabunta in said cloud. Even in complete darkness, when matched against the Rinnegan, a Sage's sensory abilities are clearly superior [1] [2] [3].


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 3, 2015)

^ Is Rinnegan even implied to be able to see a person's chakra the way a Sharingan can?

 Even then, Jiraiya himself implies skilled sensing << visual prowess which was the situation that Path was in. Sharingan doesn't have that limitation where it's not capable of seeing in complete darkness. If it can see the color of the chakra of C3 which involves multiple microscopic bombs invisible to the naked eye and even see them flowing throughout Sasuke's body, I can't see why the Sharingan can't see through the dust cloud or why it can't even see through darkness.

 And there's also this:

  Once again, his speed shines, his ability to react after a jutsu shines, he does not waste time (this is CS1 but his mindset hasn't changed).

 From prelims CE Sasuke who's low on chakra.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Is Rinnegan even implied to be able to see a person's chakra the way a Sharingan can?



It saw the Chakra Tsunade was using in her feet ready to counter Shinra Tensei.

I also think it's important to note that Shima's dust cloud _is a Ninjutsu_, and as such should be filled with Chakra. The Sharingan has trouble seeing Chakra through more Chakra if Kakashi's fight with Zabuza and the Five Kage's Kirigakure no Jutsu plan against Madara is anything to go by.


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## Bonly (Feb 3, 2015)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Knowledge: Full for Jiraiya, manga for trio
> 
> Assume base Jiraiya is as fast as V2 Ei, his sage time won't run out.



Welp Jiraiya has this in the bag. If he's that fast in base then SM Shunshin is gonna be a bitch to deal with and with clones, detection barriers,frog call, and his new speed among other things, Jiraiya is simple gonna overwhelm them sooner or later.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Full knowledge means Ma blows a Dust Cloud [1] to disallow targeting from Ocular Genjutsu, Amaterasu and Kamui (Dojutsu variants dependent on AOS)


. 

So the convienent yet dumb implication, is they can do that before itachi makes eye contact with them? considering he needs to effort to make eye contact. when you meet a person 99% of the time you are making eye contact. 

then we have sasuke genjutsu C while C wasnt even making eye contact directly 




> From there, superior shunshin speed (V2 Ei + Sage Mode) and advanced sensory abilities (Sage Mode, Ma's Tongue, Canopy Barrier) result in the death of the three combatants, assuming Kakashi doesn't warp them out of the cloud immediately.



All of those still pales in comparison 2 2 susanoos and kamui 



> Even then, that only buys them time, as Jiraiya will find them again, blow another dust cloud, and begin hunting them again in the rift of vision.



yes because jiriaya can set up a dust cloud quicker than kakashi can kamui, itachi can tskuyomi and sasuke can amaterasu. suuuuure. mind showing me feats of dust cloud being set up quciker than either of those techniques? 



> On top of all this, Itachi, Sasuke and Kakashi have never witnessed Yomi Numa, Frog Call, Frog Song, Frog Oil Flame Bullet or Food Cart Destroyer, all valid tactics for defeating all of them in the cloud.



YN is trolled by all 3 of them. susanoo breaks out. see gaara sand and madara powering up with susanoo. btw, madara was numbed by electricity with sealing tags on him. yet susanoo, casually powers through it



> Before anyone suggests the Sharingan grants them the ability to even remotely perceive these attacks in the cloud, refer to the manga where Nagato's Paths, with the Rinnegan (superior ocular device), were unable to effectively avoid the blindside tactics of Sage Mode Naruto to the point of Nagato not knowing the location of one of the path's captured by Gamabunta in said cloud. Even in complete darkness, when matched against the Rinnegan, a Sage's sensory abilities are clearly superior [1] [2] [3].


[/QUOTE]

sharingan can see through solid walls. read the fight between uchiha bros and kabuto. 

Again cloud cant be set up before 2 techniques which have been described and shown to be instantaneous.

without the boost anyone of them can take out jiriaya. the boost doesnt suddenly make him stronger than all 3

and oh btw feats of YN sinking anyone or doing anything useful on panel


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2015)

> So the convienent yet dumb implication, is they can do that before itachi makes eye contact with them? considering he needs to effort to make eye contact. when you meet a person 99% of the time you are making eye contact.


Nonense, with full knowledge he won't make eye contact, he literally does not need to. 



> then we have sasuke genjutsu C while C wasnt even making eye contact directly


Dust Cloud is out before anyone is in Genjutsu. 



> All of those still pales in comparison 2 2 susanoos and kamui


Not really, none of the latter can effectively target Jiraiya in the cloud. 



> yes because jiriaya can set up a dust cloud quicker than kakashi can kamui, itachi can tskuyomi and sasuke can amaterasu. suuuuure. mind showing me feats of dust cloud being set up quciker than either of those techniques?


Considering he has V2 Ei shunshin speed + his Sage enhancement, it's doubtful any of those techniques effectively neutralize him before Dust Cloud is out. People have literally made the argument that V2 Ei alone could avoid Kamui and roughly all of the MS moveset by shunshining initially. 



> YN is trolled by all 3 of them. susanoo breaks out. see gaara sand and madara powering up with susanoo. btw, madara was numbed by electricity with sealing tags on him. yet susanoo, casually powers through it


Susano cannot break out, Madara was caught in a pyramid of sand and his Susano has legs meaning he's inside of a full humanoid chakra construct. 

1. You're comparing Gaara's techniques with Yomi Numa, zero connection there
2. You're comparing EMS Madara's V3 Legged Susano and PS capabilities to that of no-legged V3 Susanos 
3. You're comparing Madara to any of these scrubs who are insects compared to him 



> sharingan can see through solid walls. read the fight between uchiha bros and kabuto.


Irrelevant, Rinnegan couldn't see in this cloud. Rinnegan > Sharingan



> Again cloud cant be set up before 2 techniques which have been described and shown to be instantaneous.


Irrelevant, Jiraiya's advanced shunshin speed alone grants him the time to release Dust Cloud. 



> without the boost anyone of them can take out jiriaya. the boost doesnt suddenly make him stronger than all 3


Of course it does. The only one capable of effectively targeting Jiraiya at all is Kakashi with Kamui, and that won't happen immediately because of Dust Cloud. With advanced shunshin and sensory abilities he will literally dodge 95% of their entire arsenals. 



> and oh btw feats of YN sinking anyone or doing anything useful on panel


I provided them in multiple threads, only Kakashi can effectively escape it by warping out with Kamui. If you continue to deny Yomi Numa's effectiveness I will simply not reply to you.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nonense, with full knowledge he won't make eye contact, he literally does not need to.



Danzo, orochimaru, C, killer bee, naruto - all had full knowledge yet still got genjutsu'd

jiriaya would be no different. 



> Dust Cloud is out before anyone is in Genjutsu.



Easier to cast genjutsu than dust cloud which requires seals and inhaling then exhaling but. am sure you know more than kishi. 



> Not really, none of the latter can effectively target Jiraiya in the cloud.



Why cant they. Sasuke got C in genjutsu. during the dust kick up from Jugo blast. 




> Considering he has V2 Ei shunshin speed + his Sage enhancement, it's doubtful any of those techniques effectively neutralize him before Dust Cloud is out. People have literally made the argument that V2 Ei alone could avoid Kamui and roughly all of the MS moveset by shunshining initially.



With that speed though. who would consider using a dust cloud? Those people arent wrong. Ei can avoid kamui. doesnt mean he will always or that he is immune to it. 
What neither Ei or any boosted Ei can do is avoid 3 MS users. 




> Susano cannot break out, Madara was caught in a pyramid of sand and his Susano has legs meaning he's inside of a full humanoid chakra construct.



Yes his susanoo has legs. doesnt make the release of chakra any more useful in breaking out



> 1. You're comparing Gaara's techniques with Yomi Numa, zero connection there
> 2. You're comparing EMS Madara's V3 Legged Susano and PS capabilities to that of no-legged V3 Susanos
> 3. You're comparing Madara to any of these scrubs who are insects compared to him



These scrubs individually exceed jiriaya. Scrubs they are 

So what you are implying is only PS is capable of breaking out of gaara sand when caught in it? if so why did V3 legged susanoo do it as well? 



> Irrelevant, Rinnegan couldn't see in this cloud. Rinnegan > Sharingan



rinnegan cannot predict either, so yes rinnegan is more powerful. doesnt mean it has all the attributes of sharingan 



> Irrelevant, Jiraiya's advanced shunshin speed alone grants him the time to release Dust Cloud.



jiriaya shunshin speed doesnt give him hand seal speed. Ma and pa are also at the same speed. nothing mentioned about them being faster 



> Of course it does. The only one capable of effectively targeting Jiraiya at all is Kakashi with Kamui, and that won't happen immediately because of Dust Cloud. With advanced shunshin and sensory abilities he will literally dodge 95% of their entire arsenals.



sasuke and itachi can target jiriaya as well. Amaterasu 



> I provided them in multiple threads, only Kakashi can effectively escape it by warping out with Kamui. If you continue to deny Yomi Numa's effectiveness I will simply not reply to you.




your multiple threads mean shit. Yn cannot take out either sasuke or itachi. Nothing in those fun threads mention why amaterasu cant simply heat up the mud and change its state. 

kabuto muki tensei suffered to it. and the jutsu wasnt even targetted. but am sure a chakra technique altering the ground >>> a senjutsu+granting will to the ground technique

Then please dont reply to me. Only in your mind and other tards is YN effective. despite it having no feats of putting any ninja down.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2015)

> Danzo, orochimaru, C, killer bee, naruto - all had full knowledge yet still got genjutsu'd


None of the above had the ability to effectively fight without sight, nor were any of them even remotely close to this Jiraiya's speed caliber. 

SM Kabuto, a considerably slower ninja was effectively avoiding their Genjutsu with full knowledge. 



> jiriaya would be no different.


Clearly nonsense. 



> Easier to cast genjutsu than dust cloud which requires seals and inhaling then exhaling but. am sure you know more than kishi.


Not at all, they have to activate Sharingan and the Genjutsu is not instantaneous. 

All irrelevant to the fact that none of them make eye contact at all, considering they do not need to. 



> Why cant they. Sasuke got C in genjutsu. during the dust kick up from Jugo blast.


Sharingan Genjutsu requires ocular connection. None of the above, save perhaps Kakashi have the perceptual speed to make eye contact with a man who is as fast as V2 Ei without Sage Mode enhancing, with it- it literally is impossible to put this version of Jiraiya in ocular Genjutsu for these three men. 

No one around V2 Ei's speed was ever put into Sharingan Genjutsu save Ei himself, who was fighting multiple Madara clones and distracted his own self momentarily- and it was Madara himself to put him into it, Madara himself being notably around V2 Ei's speed as he casually reacted to him without knowledge and while partially distracted by lava spit. 



> With that speed though. who would consider using a dust cloud? Those people arent wrong. Ei can avoid kamui. doesnt mean he will always or that he is immune to it.
> What neither Ei or any boosted Ei can do is avoid 3 MS users.


That's a ridiculous notion. If V2 Ei can avoid Kamui, Amaterasu and Susano certainly aren't going to hit him. 



> Yes his susanoo has legs. doesnt make the release of chakra any more useful in breaking out


It absolutely does. Without legs a Susano does not protect the bottom of the caster, which leaves a hole for the swamp to infiltrate, ensuring the Susano cannot break the user out as they'd still be caught in the swamp. 

With legs, the Susano can move the user out because it pushes the swamp off of the caster then encases him entirely in the structure, then the legs kick them out. Though, even this is doubtful, considering Orochimaru's Boss Snake, which is easily 10x larger than Madara's V3 Legged Susanos couldn't effectively escape a weakened swamp. 



> These scrubs individually exceed jiriaya. Scrubs they are


Not this version of Jiraiya, and I'd argue SM Jiraiya > Sick Itachi any fucking day of the week. 



> So what you are implying is only PS is capable of breaking out of gaara sand when caught in it? if so why did V3 legged susanoo do it as well?


Not at all, Madara's V3 Legged Susano is arguably capable of breaking out. 

MS Sasuke and MS Itachi's V3 no-legged Susanos are not. 



> rinnegan cannot predict either, so yes rinnegan is more powerful. doesnt mean it has all the attributes of sharingan


Not at all, but I doubt the Sharingan has superior sensory capabilities compared to a Rinnegan, that includes the vision scope and chakra detection capabilities. 



> jiriaya shunshin speed doesnt give him hand seal speed. Ma and pa are also at the same speed. nothing mentioned about them being faster


Not at all, but in my observation the cloud is out before Jiraiya faces an attack that he can't otherwise dodge or destroy with Omeda Rasengan, which was manifested nigh-instantly against Preta Path and Judara (Minato faster than Kakashi's Kamui) and does not require hand seals. 



> sasuke and itachi can target jiriaya as well. Amaterasu


He dodges that as easy as V2 Ei dodged it. With chakra sensory abilities (which Naruto showcased to the fullest against the 3rd Raikage) and full knowledge, he'll sense that coming well before Ei did as the chakra builds up in their eyes, and dodge it considerably more effectively. 



> your multiple threads mean shit. Yn cannot take out either sasuke or itachi. Nothing in those fun threads mention why amaterasu cant simply heat up the mud and change its state.


I provided why that wouldn't work, I will not begin debating this with you again. 

Do not bother providing a counter to Yomi Numa again in this thread, my stance is clear- only Kakashi, and Kakashi alone, can counter it. You will _never_ convince me otherwise. Move on.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > None of the above had the ability to effectively fight without sight, Jiraiya does.
> ...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It saw the Chakra Tsunade was using in her feet ready to counter Shinra Tensei.
> 
> I also think it's important to note that Shima's dust cloud _is a Ninjutsu_, and as such should be filled with Chakra. The Sharingan has trouble seeing Chakra through more Chakra if Kakashi's fight with Zabuza and the Five Kage's Kirigakure no Jutsu plan against Madara is anything to go by.



 I always believed that the Pain or Nagato's ability to actually see chakra only stemmed from his sensing rather than the Rinnegan's ability to actually see chakra.

 True, Dust Cloud is ninjutsu, so you actually did get me there.

 Also, Jiraiya I would believe would falter by looking at Itachi's feet as Jiraiya states not looking at his opponent and only relying on sensing would hinder him more than actually using eye sight, so even if Jiraiya is capable of fighting while looking at his feet, considering even SM Kabuto fell for his bushin feints multiple times (who has superior sensing as he managed to dodge Susanoo Arrow w/o eye sight), Jiraiya gets bushin feinted and gets his teeth knocked out.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2015)

how is using dust cloud faster than making eye contact which is all genjutsu requires

sasuke was able to genjutsu danzo before danzo could look down at his own hand. 
Sasuke again a novice at genjutsu compard to itachi genjutsu C while C basically had his hand covering half his face. 

Not implying genjutsu can GG jiraiya but to assume he cant fall for it is funny as hell. 

when every single uchiha battle genjutsu was used. obito is actually the only one who doesnt use it and even then he did against konan and kakashi


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 5, 2015)

Sasuke and itachi can easily create rings of fire around the battle field and limit Jiraiya's movement, and then itachi can easily create a few crows to scout and put jiraiya in genjutsu.

Raikiri clones, and exploding bushins also fuk up jiraiyas day. The 3 will eventually overwhelm jiraiya imo.

Sasuke has already shown caniocally he can use amatarasu to hault his opponents movement


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 8, 2015)

> Sasuke and itachi can easily create rings of fire around the battle field and limit Jiraiya's movement, and then itachi can easily create a few crows to scout and put jiraiya in genjutsu.


Crows putting V2 Ei-level SM Jiraiya in Genjutsu? You are aware that there are 2 Sages attached to his shoulders, and that basic Genjutsu isn't going to affect him? You're also aware that he can blow them away with any number of his ranged Ninjutsu options? (Frog Oil Flame Bullet, Gama's water bullets, Sage Art: Goemon, Dragon Fire Bullet). You're also aware that he can close his eyes at all times and still fight effectively by sensing?

Dust Cloud immediately negates any chance for ocular connection by any of them at any point.  



> Raikiri clones, and exploding bushins also fuk up jiraiyas day. The 3 will eventually overwhelm jiraiya imo.


No they don't, Jiraiya blows all of them away with Goemon from afar in the dust cloud, they're sunk by Yomi Numa or torched by Jiraiya & Gamabunta. 



> Sasuke has already shown caniocally he can use amatarasu to hault his opponents movement


Why would Jiraiya need to move anywhere? He has a great long range arsenal fully capable of eliminating the lot of them. And, have you heard of Yomi Numa? You can't exactly "stay put" on the ground against Jiraiya unless you plan on going swamp swimming.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 8, 2015)

^ Actually, closing his eyes drastically hinders SM Jiraiya's fighting style and this was made clear when he commented on Human Path's ability to react to him without even seeing him.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 8, 2015)

Doesn't the Fourth Databook grant Jiriaya Sage Sensory and Frog Kata Mastery?

I don't see how it would significantly hinder his attacking style at all, which is the entire basis for Jiraiya's ability to hunt in the Dust Cloud.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Doesn't the Fourth Databook grant Jiriaya Sage Sensory and Frog Kata Mastery?
> 
> I don't see how it would significantly hinder his attacking style at all, which is the entire basis for Jiraiya's ability to hunt in the Dust Cloud.



 That's likely because most opponents have not mastered sensory capabilities that allows them to counter Dust Cloud, so even when Jiraiya is hindered himself, he's not at a complete disadvantage considering the opponent can't see or sense Jiraiya while Jiraiya can at least somewhat sense his target.

 Ma and Pa can also be the real reason why Jiraiya's ability to use Dust Cloud is so effective. It explains why Jiraiya still relied on his Detection Barrier to detect Animal Path's location while Ma just effortlessly sensed him out.

 But yes, Jiraiya does have Sage Sensory and does have Frog Kata. I believe this was stated by Pa during the Manga where Pa was about to teach Naruto the Frog Kata, claiming it's a fighting style that Jiraiya also learned.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 8, 2015)

Jiraiya wasn't in SM when he used Canopy barrier, and you're contradicting clear statements made in the databook by the author which is about as canon as it gets. 

Jiraiya can use Sage Mode to sense the positions and chakras of his enemies, your previous claim is rendered moot.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Jiraiya wasn't in SM when he used Canopy barrier, and you're contradicting clear statements made in the databook by the author which is about as canon as it gets.
> 
> Jiraiya can use Sage Mode to sense the positions and chakras of his enemies, your previous claim is rendered moot.



 Except Jiraiya outright stated he had his Detection Barrier up which meant SM Jiraiya relied on it with Ma making a remark stating there's no time and instead, outright sensed him out and grabbed the Chameleon.

 Not even KCM Naruto could sense Nagato's Chameleon and Naruto is a superior sensor and has shown some fairly good sensory feats such as sensing Kin and Gin's Kurama Chakra even within the "Temple" (or whatever it is) even though it was stated he shouldn't have been able to.

 I never claimed Jiraiya cannot sense an opponent's chakra, but he isn't very efficient at doing so. Why he was unable to detect Animal Path without his barrier, no idea, but that's what was implied or if he could, would've been too time consuming to do so  suggests his sensory feats are decent at best.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 8, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Except Jiraiya outright stated he had his Detection Barrier up which meant SM Jiraiya relied on it with Ma making a remark stating there's no time and instead, outright sensed him out and grabbed the Chameleon.
> 
> Not even KCM Naruto could sense Nagato's Chameleon and Naruto is a superior sensor and has shown some fairly good sensory feats such as sensing Kin and Gin's Kurama Chakra even within the "Temple" (or whatever it is) even though it was stated he shouldn't have been able to.
> 
> I never claimed Jiraiya cannot sense an opponent's chakra, but he isn't very efficient at doing so. Why he was unable to detect Animal Path without his barrier, no idea, but that's what was implied or if he could, would've been too time consuming to do so  suggests his sensory feats are decent at best.


He said he had it up, while he was in base. He said this basically 5 seconds into Sage Mode. The "we don't have time for that" comment was from Ma who was preparing dinner at the time and is considerably impatient. Ma spit her tongue out seconds into Jiraiya's Sage Mode, the dude didn't even attempt to sense anyone, nor did Pa. 

What are you trying to suggest? That the opposing team has Nagato's chameleon to hide in? Because the points you're making are irrelevant. The Chameleon had no chakra dampening qualities, all it was doing was changing it's appearance to blend in with it's surroundings naturally, basically a better version of Harem Ninjutsu. Assuming it did hide from KCM Naruto's sensing, what in the hell does that have to do with Jiraiya sensing these three ninja with his eyes closed? They don't have the chameleon and Jiraiya never attempted to sense it while in SM, he was still explaining the situation when Ma spit out her tongue. 

He is efficient in doing so, he's a Sage and the databook proves he has Sage sensory. He also has two Sages attached to his shoulder, one of which has scent detection (Ma) and he still has the barrier technique as an option for finding them in the Dust Cloud, though he obviously cannot keep his eyes closed against them and expect this technique to fill that gap.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He said he had it up, while he was in base. He said this basically 5 seconds into Sage Mode. The "we don't have time for that" comment was from Ma who was preparing dinner at the time and is considerably impatient. Ma spit her tongue out seconds into Jiraiya's Sage Mode, the dude didn't even attempt to sense anyone, nor did Pa.



 That would work if it wasn't for Ma's statement about tracking the Chameleon was taking account both Ma and Pa's sensing capabilities, not Jiraiya's as shown here. Jiraiya only considered using the Detection Barrier while Ma tells him both Pa and herself will be able to track him seems to imply that Jiraiya's sensing is decent at best. 



> What are you trying to suggest? That the opposing team has Nagato's chameleon to hide in? Because the points you're making are irrelevant. The Chameleon had no chakra dampening qualities, all it was doing was changing it's appearance to blend in with it's surroundings naturally, basically a better version of Harem Ninjutsu. Assuming it did hide from KCM Naruto's sensing, what in the hell does that have to do with Jiraiya sensing these three ninja with his eyes closed? They don't have the chameleon and Jiraiya never attempted to sense it while in SM, he was still explaining the situation when Ma spit out her tongue.



 It's merely to support the notion that Jiraiya isn't proficient enough as a sensor to the point where he can fight without even looking at his opponent's eyes. The only person that could do that was Gai and he's proficient in Taijutsu and very skilled in reading body movements. 

 Jiraiya never attempted to sense out the Chameleon because he only considered using the Barrier whereas Ma and Pa stated that only Pa and herself will be able to find the Chameleon efficiently which hints towards Jiraiya's sensory skills not being as skilled as what you would believe.



> He is efficient in doing so, he's a Sage and the databook proves he has Sage sensory. He also has two Sages attached to his shoulder, one of which has scent detection (Ma) and he still has the barrier technique as an option for finding them in the Dust Cloud, though * he obviously cannot keep his eyes closed against them and expect this technique to fill that gap. *



 At least we agree there.

 I'll agree to disagree here considering I feel like this argument will get us nowhere. Feel free to continue debating if you want.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

no sensor has been shown to fight blind
jiriaya cant fight blind

naruto rasengan'd animal path in a dark room. doesnt mean naruto can keep fighting blind through out. 

sensors still need to see whats happening in order to avoid it properly and more efficiently

kisamehada is a sensor. doesnt mean he is going to close his eyes and fight


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