# Monkey Trouble on De Nile



## Kagekatsu (Jun 30, 2013)

> CAIRO (AP) ? Tens of thousands of opponents of Egypt's Islamist president massed in Cairo's Tahrir Square and in cities around the country Sunday, launching an all-out push to force Mohammed Morsi from office on the one-year anniversary of his inauguration. Fears of violence were high, with Morsi's Islamist supporters vowing to defend him.
> 
> Waving Egyptian flags, crowds packed Tahrir, the birthplace of the 2011 uprising that toppled autocrat Hosni Mubarak, and chants of "erhal!", or "leave!" rang out.
> 
> ...



Cue Morsi blaming the inevitable violence on "teh ZIONISTS" in 3...2...1


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## Megaharrison (Jun 30, 2013)

It looks like the Islamists days might be over, they were barely able to terrorize the country for a year before,blowback. I admit I'm impressed so many Egyptians are fighting for their countries future like this, though the opposition parties are not going to solve the enormous level of shit Egypt finds itself in.

The key now is the army. Morsi purged it of secularist and nationalist officers last year, most notably defense minister Tantawi. The MB may still count on their loyalty.


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## E (Jun 30, 2013)

also, the sun rose today


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## Jin-E (Jun 30, 2013)

Morsi is right in that demanding the ouster of democratically elected leaders can lead to bad precendents, but he has really only himself and his movement to blame for this mess.

Especially since noone of those protesting him believe the MB will leave power constitutionally even if they lose the next presidential election.


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## Deleted member 84471 (Jun 30, 2013)

> "Today is the Brotherhood's last day in power," predicted Suliman Mohammed, a manager of a seafood company who was protesting at Tahrir, where crowds neared 100,000 by early afternoon.
> 
> "I came here today because Morsi did not accomplish any of the (2011) revolution's goals. I don't need anything for myself, but the needs of the poor were not met."



The atmosphere's rather ominous, but whatever the outcome here, this kind of solidarity is inspirational and propitious for the people. 

 and  - "The beginning of the end came in November, almost a year to the day after the Mohamed Mahmoud battle, when Morsi issued a package of sovereign decrees - just four months into his term - that essentially placed himself and assembly above judicial review. He and his allies argued that to stand by and do nothing would leave courts packed with Mubarak appointees free to undermine every step of the transition. The opposition, which may have once been inclined to agree, did not take his side. There had been too many betrayals, trust had evaporated. To the apparent surprise of Morsi’s administration, they were outraged. Protesters took to the streets, calling the president a “new pharaoh.”"


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## IchLiebe (Jun 30, 2013)

WTF does Egypt want, a clusterfuck of society.


Seriously are they this dumb, I thought they had schools in Egypt?


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## Al Mudaari (Jun 30, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> I admit I'm impressed so many Egyptians are fighting for their countries future like this,




Indeed 



> There was also some evidence of anti-American and anti-Israeli feeling among the protesters, with one flag portraying President Morsi inside a Star of David.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23115821


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## Sunuvmann (Jun 30, 2013)

^ Why do you have to be so terrible?


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## IchLiebe (Jun 30, 2013)

^Cause it feels so good


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## Mael (Jun 30, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Indeed



Would've been the same at a pro-Mursi rally lollerskates.

Your kind of ilk would blame the entire universe for their woes than spend one second looking inward.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 30, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Indeed



Gypos are so brainwashed that anything they don't like is Israel's/America's fault. You're not hurting me by showing this, only making Egypt look like a country full of idiots.


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## Fiona (Jun 30, 2013)

Somehow this is not in the least bit surprising


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## Thor (Jun 30, 2013)

What did they think was going to happen? Hitting your head on the ground doesn't pay the bills.


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## Megaharrison (Jun 30, 2013)

MB HQ in Cairo burning at the moment. Morsi has fled his palace as well. The Army has said more people are out on the streets then were against Mubarak.

The Islamists have certainly pissed the country off.


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## Mael (Jun 30, 2013)

*Seven dead in Egypt clashes, scores wounded*



> (Reuters) - At least seven people were killed in Egypt and more than 600 wounded on Sunday in clashes between supporters and opponents of Islamist President Mohamed Mursi, security and medical sources said.
> 
> Five of the dead were shot in towns south of Cairo, one each in Beni Suef and Fayoum and three in Assiut.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/01/us-egypt-protests-benisuef-idUSBRE96000R20130701


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## Sarry (Jun 30, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> The key now is the army. Morsi purged it of secularist and nationalist officers last year, most notably defense minister Tantawi. *The MB may still count on their loyalty*.



Concerning the Bolded bit, The egyptian army did announce that it will intervene if things get ugly
But they don't give  alot of details, so my curious question is: 

Will the army assist the protesters or the MB?


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## Mael (Jun 30, 2013)

Hopefully the Army already knows the mistake the Muslim Brotherhood is and side with the protesters.


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## Fiona (Jun 30, 2013)

If they side with the MB then this could become a massacre.


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## Mael (Jun 30, 2013)

Fiona said:


> If they side with the MB then this could become a massacre.



I don't think they will.  I know Mursi sacked some of the leaders but the military also knows that an Islamist government is bad for their power grip.


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## Kagekatsu (Jun 30, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> MB HQ in Cairo burning at the moment. Morsi has fled his palace as well. The Army has said more people are out on the streets then were against Mubarak.
> 
> The Islamists have certainly pissed the country off.



Morsi: ITS ALL THE ZIONISTS FAULT


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## navy (Jun 30, 2013)

Protest in egypt is like an nfl player getting arrested during the off season.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 30, 2013)

Protest in Egypt is about as common as the sun shining.


Protest in Egypt is like Jesse Jackson bitching about race.

Protest in Egypt is just as funny as Daniel Tosh....hilarious


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## Mael (Jun 30, 2013)

Protest in Egypt is as common as the South regressing.


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## Fiona (Jul 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Protest in Egypt is just as funny as Daniel Tosh....hilarious



Protest in Egypt is as common as me being disgusted by members of this forum.


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## Mael (Jul 1, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Protest in Egypt is as common as me being disgusted by members of this forum.



Protest in Egypt is as common as mutual sentiments at the bewilderment of others and that only a confession to thinking Dane Cook is superior outdoing such things.


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## kandaron (Jul 1, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]gtp4N4jUibA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Jin-E (Jul 1, 2013)

kandaron said:


> [YOUTUBE]gtp4N4jUibA[/YOUTUBE]



Something tells me chubby here is a Morsi supporter.


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## Golden Circle (Jul 1, 2013)

Protest in Egypt may be just as common as bushfires in Australia, but that doesn't make it any less concerning.

Good grief, guys.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 1, 2013)

Jin-E said:


> Something tells me chubby here is a Morsi supporter.



They're plainclothes Muslim Brotherhood Shabiha. Have been active in Egypt for 2 years now serving as a private police force of the MB to quash dissent, crack down on Coptics, drive out Bedouin Gaza smugglers (useful idiots!), and so on. MB doesn't trust the Army or Central Security Forces and Suleiman's old Mukhabarat has been purged in an act of vengeance, so not many options left for the MB to solidify rule. One of the reasons they've been so bad at it.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 1, 2013)

Also another Western reporter raped by Egyptian mobs:


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## Pliskin (Jul 1, 2013)

kandaron said:


> [YOUTUBE]gtp4N4jUibA[/YOUTUBE]



Whenever you see these vids it's like they are all Pokemon named Ahlackbar.

 OT: Hope the country finds rest soon. Must be a real downer to be on the streets again only 2 years after you thought you kicked the last asshole out.
Revolution eating its own children.


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## Al Mudaari (Jul 1, 2013)

The Tamarod movement says more than 22 million people have signed a petition complaining that:



> Security has not been restored since the 2011 revolution that toppled Hosni Mubarak
> 
> The poor "have no place" in society
> 
> ...


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> They're plainclothes Muslim Brotherhood Shabiha. Have been active in Egypt for 2 years now serving as a private police force of the MB to quash dissent, crack down on Coptics, drive out Bedouin Gaza smugglers (useful idiots!), and so on. MB doesn't trust the Army or Central Security Forces and Suleiman's old Mukhabarat has been purged in an act of vengeance, so not many options left for the MB to solidify rule. One of the reasons they've been so bad at it.



Classic Islamists.

Of course they'd emulate Iran.


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## Blue (Jul 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> WTF does Egypt want, a clusterfuck of society.
> 
> 
> Seriously are they this dumb, I thought they had schools in Egypt?



Condescending post of the year, 10/10, I laughed.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> WTF does Egypt want, a clusterfuck of society.
> 
> 
> Seriously are they this dumb, I thought they had schools in Egypt?


They want economic growth. They also want secularism. 

Basically they don't want to be a shithole like most of the other middle eastern states.

They want how things were like under Mubarik but y'kno, without the dictator. Also they think Morsi has authoritarian inclinations and want that nipped in the bud.

And yeah actually, Egypt has some of the best universities in the region.  (That's not exactly saying much but its something)


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## Al Mudaari (Jul 1, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> They also want secularism.




Lmaooooooo


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## navy (Jul 1, 2013)

They dont want secularism. But they dont want the Brotherhood either. (Half of them anyways)


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## Jin-E (Jul 1, 2013)

Makes me wonder how Morsi won the election considering the massive amount of opposition he's facing now. Surely they didn't believe he could fix Egypt's deep problems within a year?


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## Nemesis (Jul 1, 2013)

He won by a minute margine in a dirty election with enough invalid votes that could have changed the result.


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## Jin-E (Jul 1, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> He won by a minute margine in a dirty election with enough invalid votes that could have changed the result.



But the guy who lost was the generals favorite and pretty much the establishment candidate. If the election was dirty, i'd assume it would have benefitted him?

And MB supporters aren't mobilizing in any numbers similar to the opposition. It's kinda weird, as this is basically a make or break moment for them.


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## Sarry (Jul 1, 2013)

Jin-E said:


> And *MB supporters aren't mobilizing in any numbers similar to the opposition*. It's kinda weird, as this is basically a make or break moment for them.



I'd assume they don't want to make it worse or being held back. 
If equal numbers of MB supporters descend into Tahrir square, they are going to be violent, and oppressive. 

Sparking either the army to join in or a civil war to begin. And both options are pretty bad.


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## Nemesis (Jul 1, 2013)

Jin-E said:


> But the guy who lost was the generals favorite and pretty much the establishment candidate. If the election was dirty, i'd assume it would have benefitted him?



I guess that was why the MB has done everything to limit the power and influence of the army,  even with sacking generals and such who were not sucking up to the MB.  

On the civic side the MB always had the power and it was seen as the main opponent to Mubarrak but now it seems that many have seen the MB for what they are and would have preferred Ahmed Shafik.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Lmaooooooo


Okay yeah, there's also the Salafists. But those people are fucking insane and should hopefully be completely marginalized.


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## C-Moon (Jul 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> WTF does Egypt want, a clusterfuck of society.
> 
> 
> Seriously are they this dumb, I thought they had schools in Egypt?



You live in Mississippi, you have no right to blast anyone's schooling.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> You live in Mississippi, you have no right to blast anyone's schooling.


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## Blue (Jul 1, 2013)

Okay but seriously ousting a democratically elected president just makes you a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor, not a legitimate protester.

People with their shit together wait for the next election and have the kind of revolution democracies are meant to have. France is dealing with Flanby and his 20% approval rating for the next 5 years. Egypt can take responsibility for their stupid decision.


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## Mael (Jul 1, 2013)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> You live in Mississippi, you have no right to blast anyone's schooling.



Third-degree burn.


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## Goobtachi (Jul 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> WTF does Egypt want, a clusterfuck of society.
> 
> 
> Seriously are they this dumb, I thought they had schools in Egypt?



You're worse...went to school and still this dumb.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

Blue said:


> Okay but seriously ousting a democratically elected president just makes you a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor, not a legitimate protester.
> 
> People with their shit together wait for the next election and have the kind of revolution democracies are meant to have. France is dealing with Flanby and his 20% approval rating for the next 5 years. Egypt can take responsibility for their stupid decision.


I generally agree with that argument. But Morsi's been authoritarian-lite so I'm rather conflicted.

I think the best solution would be to force parliamentary elections or something and then let him continue as president but be rendered impotent.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 1, 2013)

The MB's authoritarian streak has invalidated the whole DERP DEMOCRACY angle. People have demanding Morsi change course for a year now and he has never listened. Brought this shit on himself.

Anyway the opposition is only slightly less fucktarded them the MB and will still screw shit up. Egyptians just like protesting shit and overthrowing shit but no matter how many times they do that the endemic social and economic problems turning the country to shit won't get solved. ElBaradei will get overthrown a year from now as well.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 1, 2013)

*Egypt army gives Mursi 48 hours to share power*





> (Reuters) - Egypt's armed forces handed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi a virtual ultimatum to share power on Monday, giving feuding politicians 48 hours to compromise or have the army impose its own roadmap for the country.
> 
> A dramatic military statement broadcast on state television declared the nation was in danger after millions of Egyptians took to the streets on Sunday to demand that Mursi quit and the headquarters of the ruling Muslim Brotherhood were ransacked.
> 
> ...



Sauce

Looks like the Army is ready to save the day. Or whatever it is military coups do.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

Good news everyone?


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## Overwatch (Jul 1, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Good news everyone?



Unless it turns into a massacre.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 1, 2013)

Egypt's military, which is more or less the only institution in the country that hasn't absolutely gone to shit thanks to its massive funding, has played this very skilfully and is coming off as savior of the people again. They more or less deposed Mubarak last time as well, they're just repeating the process now with Morsi.

Egyptians love the military, it's the only thing that makes them feel like they're not a shit country and the only thing they have that "rivals" hated Israel, despite that rivalry being definitively one-sided and unrequited.. Countless Medals, fancy uniforms, holiday after holiday dedicated to them, parades, lavish museums, Egypt's military is what celebrities are in most societies. The militarism deep rooted in Egyptian society is the primary reason the country has such a massive force despite not needing it. Thus they can get away with quite a bit.


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## Mael (Jul 1, 2013)

Good.  Someone is taking command of the situation and it might as well be those NOT led by some theocratic background.


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## Sarry (Jul 1, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> *Egypt army gives Mursi 48 hours to share power*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like a good thing, hopefully the army doesn't use heavy-hand tactics, at least not in the early stages. 


Also, i am having a kick watching an 'argument' between pro-morsi contacts that i have on facebook. 
They're pulling out the democracy card and saying 'what's wrong with these people/protesters'.


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## Mael (Jul 1, 2013)

Well judging by the last time this happened in Egypt, the military stayed its hand for the most part.  They'll probably do the same now.  But lo and behold we've discovered the true power in Egypt and it isn't the Muslim Brotherhood...thank God.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Jul 1, 2013)

and last I read Morsi condemned the Army for issuing that 48 hour warning for him to step down and it looks like he is digging in..  Mega.  What sayeth you on this breaking out into a civil war?  or is the army simply too strong and Morsi will be deposed with minimal bloodshed?


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## Sanity Check (Jul 1, 2013)

*Egyptian Protesters Bombard Helicopter With Lasers*



> Party copter? Rotor raver? Chillout chopper?
> 
> Whatever you call it, this Egyptian military helicopter certainly got more than it bargained for on Sunday.
> 
> ...


[/sp]



New form of 'protest' is born. 

:WOW


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## Pliskin (Jul 1, 2013)

Hmmm. On one and good ridance to that theocratic scum, on the other hand this reaaaalllly stinks like the rotten corpse of what could have been a democracy.

I mean, it's like all parties involved happily threw that notion out as soon as things got tough. Opposition burning the rival parties HQ down, Government pretty much discarding the part of the population that did not vote them in, military giving a big middlefinger to being overlooked by elected officials.

Not looking good for the Gypos. Time to awaken Ramses II or Atemu, the King of games.


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## Chelydra (Jul 1, 2013)

Thus giving the pilots justifiable reason to fire into the crowed


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## wibisana (Jul 1, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]OmoldX1wKYQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## Stunna (Jul 1, 2013)

That's not as cool as a bunch of Egyptians taking aim with blaster rifles.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 1, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> They want economic growth. They also want secularism.
> 
> Basically they don't want to be a shithole like most of the other middle eastern states.


 Yes, so run away Americans and other non-arab nationalist that bring in most of the big business over there. Oh so they want to be like Israel except restrict people's religious freedom(killing christians because of religion) and oppress a certain group of people. Or do they want to be like pre-IRaq war and kill their own people? Seriously they keep saying different shit every year the protest and tear shit up and kill people for no good reason....especially when they elected that person. Thats like millions of Americans killing numerous amounts of people and destroying thousands if not millions of dollars worth of infrastructure just because Obama didn't close gitmo in his first year.....Stupid.





> They want how things were like under Mubarik but y'kno, without the dictator. Also they think Morsi has authoritarian inclinations and want that nipped in the bud.


 So they want it the way Mubarak ran things and liked him yet thats why he is in jail? WTF thats like saying FDR was liked but because of his 3rd term we didn't want him in office any more because he had to much power to do actual good instead of having to bullshit with bureaucrats on a daily basis which only slows improvement? WTF.





> And yeah actually, Egypt has some of the best universities in the region.  (That's not exactly saying much but its something)


Who the fuck would want to go to Egypt other than Muslims? Dumbasses. We all know its a huge clusterfuck of idiots that don't know what they want nor who they want.

They wanted a radical Mubarak in office.

Dictatorship can be defined as a form of government in which the power is centralized. It either lies with a single person or a small group of people. The general population has no say in the functioning of the government...Sounds a lot like America where a group of people or a groups of people control the government and not the actual citizens.

The advantages to having a dictator:
Stable government- Instead of having 2 parties who ideals grossly differentiate from the others ideals and throwing the government in loops there is actual stability with a dictator as their ideals don't differentiate from their own.

Less likely for corruption to occur- Usually a dictator has rules, regulations that people must follow and will be rewarded or punished. And he has more oversight.

When a country faces any kind of emergency, such as a war or a health epidemic, a dictatorship government can prove to be the most efficient one. The reason being that all the decisions are taken by one person, so there is no ambiguity with regards to the plan of action as well as individual responsibilities that are fixed to cope with the emergency. So one of its main advantages over democracy is that it is better equipped to face emergencies.

Most of the dictatorship governments are police states. So, in a way there is low crime rate under such regimes. Another reason for a better law and order situation in these states is that various laws are passed immediately, without any discussion or waiting for the public opinion on them. This leads to better control over crimes too.

Although for these advantages to translate into real life, a dictator needs to be self less, benevolent, well experienced and intelligent. As a dictator has unlimited power, if he does not possess these qualities, the disadvantages of dictatorship, such as oppression of people, no freedom of choice for the people, accumulation of wealth in a few hands, loss of civil rights, flawed decision-making, etc. can lead the country towards a wrong path. Looking at the stakes associated with a dictatorship form of government, many countries under such a regime are considering becoming democracies, which is a form of government for the people, of the people and by the people. Today, looking at the progress democracies such as America and India are making, democracy is considered the best form of governance.

And now look at them Cairo is falling apart, umemployment sky rocketing and many more problems for the civilian population that although oppressed was taken care of.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2013)

> So they want it the way Mubarak ran things and liked him yet thats why he is in jail? WTF thats like saying FDR was liked but because of his 3rd term we didn't want him in office any more because he had to much power to do actual good instead of having to bullshit with bureaucrats on a daily basis which only slows improvement? WTF.


You misunderstand my point.

Egypt (under Mubarak) generally had a decent economy. And was getting lots of tourist dollars.

So they have buyers remorse. But they also don't want to live under an autocracy (as it was with Mubarak)


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## Megaharrison (Jul 1, 2013)

Egypt under Mubarak was shit, just not as big shit as it is today. After the First Gulf War and an influx of Western aid, Egypt's grew from 1993 but had a severe recession in 2004, the aftermath of reduced tourism (their only market of worth after cheap textiles) after 9/11 and overspending on a conventional military intended to fight Israel. This combined with Egypt's massive overpopulation from everyone having too many kids (which is a double wammy, as a huge part of the country today is under 18), few women working due to their culture, and massive corruption left the economy in the stinker. Mubarak at least kept the stinker quiet, the MB has been unable to stabilize it and the Egyptian economy has had to take out billions in foreign loans which have obviously accomplished little. Another huge economic problem was the mass social chaos that erupted in parts of the country, such as the Sinai, which more or less became no-man-lands administrated by private Bedouin and Al Qaeda-esque militias. This devastated the tourism industry of Sinai resorts in the area, and also foreign investment.

What should Egypt do? Cut their massive military for one, after North Korea and Eritrea they probably the worst case of poverty vs. unnecessary military buildups, though their exact budget is very hard to come by as they keep it classified (their official figure is a joke, and they've called for arrests of Israeli scholars who have tried to publish a real figure). However going back to my post about enthusiastic militarism in Egyptian society and their classic hatred of Israel, this is unlikely to occur. Especially now that the Army more or less can do whatever it want these days, with the civilian government and opposition parties at its mercy.

Another solution would be to actually take control of parts of the country from smugglers and militias. Since November, Morsi has been doing this to a degree. Previously the MB was reluctant to as much oif the smuggling there is for weapons to Gaza, who they did not want to see as "betraying". However Morsi has more or less become fed up with Hamas in recent months for a variety of reasons. Egypt uses the excuse of "well Israel won't let us militarize the Sinai!" as an excuse for why they can't control the Peninsula, which is more or less absolute bullshit. Egypt has a 350,000 paramilitary force with light artillery and APC's specifically designed to control the Sinai, and Mubarak did it for 30 years without trouble despite the Camp David Accords. They can manage if they really want to, Morsi has just been dragging his feet.


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## Tsuchi (Jul 1, 2013)

There seems to be alot of protesting happening these days


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## lacey (Jul 1, 2013)

Well, now time to see if Morsi folds, or if there's going to be more trouble. I have a bad feeling, honestly.



Pliskin said:


> Not looking good for the Gypos. Time to awaken Ramses II or *Atemu, the King of games*.



Wouldn't even be worth a duel. Morsi would be insta-banned to the Shadow Realm.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 1, 2013)

Hey Megaharrison, what's the chance of a Civil War breaking out due to Morsi not complying with the Military's demand?


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## Megaharrison (Jul 1, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hey Megaharrison, what's the chance of a Civil War breaking out due to Morsi not complying with the Military's demand?



Not very much. The MB has lightly armed Shabiha militia but they wouldn't last very long against the Army. Mass defections by the army to the Islamists is unlikely as well, given the show of support they've been showing the protesters in recent days (soldiers have been joining them, dropping leaflets in support, cheering for them, doing honorary fly-overs, etc.)


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## Fiona (Jul 1, 2013)

Would have been cooler if it was a death ray. 


But ill accept a laserlight show on multi-million dollar aircraft


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 1, 2013)

Let's blind a helicopter that is flying directly above us.


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## Fiona (Jul 1, 2013)

Danger Doom said:


> Let's blind a helicopter that is flying directly above us.


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## Lina Inverse (Jul 1, 2013)

you know your day's gonna be shit when your flying a helicopter at night and lasers are beaming at your face


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## blakstealth (Jul 1, 2013)

#lazering

it almost has potential. I mean, #hernandezing is a thing now, right?


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## dummy plug (Jul 2, 2013)

pilots were partying in midair


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## Sarry (Jul 2, 2013)

I get what you're saying, and i agree but i have to be a partypooper for a sec. 
But the gif is not helping. 

That is a phenomena that happens when the shutter speed of the camera matches the speed of the fans but not the lamps, hence why only the lamps are only moving. 
So it doesn't defy logic, nor does it do anything that can't be explained. 


Ok..i am done.


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## navy (Jul 2, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> You misunderstand my point.
> 
> Egypt (under Mubarak) generally had a decent economy. And was getting lots of tourist dollars.
> 
> So they have buyers remorse. But they also don't want to live under an autocracy (as it was with Mubarak)



Didnt the United States...you know wreck the world economy? Perhaps you should cut Morsi some slack there...


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## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

navy said:


> Didnt the United States...you know wreck the world economy? Perhaps you should cut Morsi some slack there...



Are you really serious here?


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## navy (Jul 2, 2013)

Mael said:


> Are you really serious here?



Well China and Europe helped....


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## Xyloxi (Jul 2, 2013)

navy said:


> Didnt the United States...you know wreck the world economy? Perhaps you should cut Morsi some slack there...



Telling non-Islamic tourists to essentially stay out of Egypt through Islamist policies does wonders for a country so dependent on tourism.

Maybe Egypt could boost their economy by opening up to LGBT tourism?


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## Thor (Jul 2, 2013)

"Muslim Brotherhood":.....the name says it all....they could care less what the people want. 
The strength of the Egyptian people is exceptional...They are brave enough to stand up to these barbaric Islamist radicals.


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## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

Mursi is of course defiant in front of the military.

That won't last long.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 2, 2013)

> *'Say Goodbye To Your Mother, Father, And Wife, Because You Will Sacrifice Your Soul' For Morsi*
> 
> Mohamed ElBeltagi, a member  of the Muslim Brotherhood's Freedom and Justice Party, reportedly called  on President Morsi's supporters to sacrifice themselves in defense of  Morsi's presidency , the sister English-language publication of Egypt's flagship independent paper Al Masry Al Youm.
> “Say goodbye to your mother, father, and wife, because you will  sacrifice your soul to defend Mohamed Morsy’s legitimacy,” ElBeltagi  reportedly said at a gathering on Tuesday.
> _--Ahmed Shihab-Eldin _


Man, I hope MB does something stupid and the military have to exterminate them


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## Mael (Jul 2, 2013)

Can't believe the Egyptian populace didn't see this level of derp when they voted this assclown into office.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 2, 2013)

Mael said:


> Can't believe the Egyptian populace didn't see this level of derp when they voted this assclown into office.


It wasn't like they had a choice in the General Election. It was either these derps or a flunky from the Old Regime. The problem is they hadn't in the primary rallied behind someone new. Instead it was a clusterfuck of little parties that spread out the vote.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

So not only did the military back the people, they are the ones who issued the ultimatum   


You done goofed


----------



## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

Morsi rejected the ultimatum, by the way. 

Time for a big bowl of coup coup puffs.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

I hope it doesnt turn into a blood bath


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue said:


> Morsi rejected the ultimatum, by the way.
> 
> Time for a big bowl of coup coup puffs.





> Egyptian President Morsi demands army withdraw ultimatum; says he rejects any deviation from constitutional legitimacy- Twitter via @Reuters


Yep.

Dictator #2 will soon be ousted


----------



## Jin-E (Jul 2, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Not very much. The MB has lightly armed Shabiha militia but they wouldn't last very long against the Army. Mass defections by the army to the Islamists is unlikely as well, given the show of support they've been showing the protesters in recent days (soldiers have been joining them, dropping leaflets in support, cheering for them, doing honorary fly-overs, etc.)



Didn't the Algerian civil war start off in the same way? Islamists wins an election, the military invalidates the victory= Shit breaking loose?


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Yep.
> 
> Dictator #2 will soon be ousted



So basically he is staring down the barrel of a thousand guns, tanks and air support. He is telling them to fuck off and all he is armed with is a piece of paper and his own ego?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 2, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Yep.
> 
> Dictator #2 will soon be ousted



Wouldn't really call Morsi a dictator, considering he was democratically elected and hasn't been in power very long.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 2, 2013)

Fiona, he staring out into a crowd of millions....this man has some balls...nuff said.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Fiona, he staring out into a crowd of millions....this man has some balls...nuff said.



Balls that will soon be removed if he doesnt stop acting like a moron. 

There is a difference between bravery and stupidity. 


This guy has done a swan dive into the stupid end.


----------



## Doge (Jul 2, 2013)

Yet another elected leader decides to do what he wants and ignore the people.  What's new?


----------



## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

To be honest I hope I'd have the courage to do the same thing as Morsi. He was democratically elected, and the stupid fucking mongrels that he has to call his countrymen don't understand democracy well enough to know that to throw out a democratic government, you wait for fucking election day.

The alternative is dictatorship or anarchy.

He's standing between Egyptian democracy - the first ever - and a return to the dark ages. He should stay.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue said:


> To be honest I hope I'd have the courage to do the same thing as Morsi. He was democratically elected, and the stupid fucking mongrels that he has to call his countrymen don't understand democracy well enough to know that to throw out a democratic government, you wait for fucking election day.
> 
> The alternative is dictatorship or anarchy.
> 
> He's standing between Egyptian democracy - the first ever - and a return to the dark ages. He should stay.



*But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.*


----------



## Blue (Jul 2, 2013)

Fiona said:


> *But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.*



>Despotism
>Democratically elected

Pick one?


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue said:


> >Despotism
> >Democratically elected
> 
> Pick one?



My point is that the government failed. 

Democratically elected or not. 

The vast majority of the entire country wants him gone. 

The military is backing them. 

All that is going to happen at the end of this is either he and his cabinet will step down willing or they will be taken down by force. 

He was given the option. He chose to not use common sense. 

Thats not the fault of the people.


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 2, 2013)

Fiona said:


> My point is that the government failed.
> 
> Democratically elected or not.
> 
> ...



Still has a bitter feel to it. Suppose the MB lose the next election. but not by a landslide.
Why should they accept the result and not try to force a reelection via the streets.

Whether you want him to step down or not, I think you can agree that democracy took a big hit.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue said:


> >Despotism
> >Democratically elected
> 
> Pick one?



The man can still act as a despot even though he was democratically elected.  I think this shows how democracy itself can be flawed - people often pick the wrong person - and the need to have recall laws in case an elected official does actions so terrible that the populace can't accept his leadership.

But Morsi should be removed not because of anything to do with Egypt but because he's a radical and the MB are enemies of the US.  We should support anything that removes him and his ilk from power.


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 2, 2013)

Morsi refuses to step down:



Dis is gonna be good


----------



## Sarry (Jul 2, 2013)

Blue said:


> To be honest I hope I'd have the courage to do the same thing as Morsi. He was democratically elected, and the stupid fucking mongrels that he has to call his countrymen don't understand democracy well enough to know that to throw out a democratic government, you wait for fucking election day.
> 
> The alternative is dictatorship or anarchy.
> 
> He's standing between Egyptian democracy - the first ever - and a return to the dark ages. He should stay.



Last time i checked, Democracy in Egypt was rendered invalid the moment Morsi gave himself immunity from any court law. And i do believe the Parliament(filled with MB lackeys) is included in that immunity as well,

If he isn't listening to the people now, nor he is accountable for his decrees, then there is no guarantee that the next election would be done without tampering.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 2, 2013)

Morsi is not some democratic champion that Blue is making him out to be. Egyptians were faced with an eventual Islamist dictatorship or a military junta, and in the long-term an MB tyranny of the majority-like regime would have been worse for the country.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> *Morsi is not some democratic champion that Blue is making him out to be*. Egyptians were faced with an eventual Islamist dictatorship or a military junta, and in the long-term an MB tyranny of the majority-like regime would have been worse for the country.



Which is why i didnt take his point about democracy seriously at all.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 2, 2013)

baconbits said:


> The man can still act as a despot even though he was democratically elected.  I think this shows how democracy itself can be flawed - people often pick the wrong person - and the need to have recall laws in case an elected official does actions so terrible that the populace can't accept his leadership.
> 
> But Morsi should be removed not because of anything to do with Egypt but because he's a radical and the MB are enemies of the US.  We should support anything that removes him and his ilk from power.


Much as I hate when threads do the Godwin's law thing, it ofc should be noted "Hitler was democratically elected".


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 2, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Morsi is not some democratic champion that Blue is making him out to be.



That seems to be a trend with Blue


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 2, 2013)

First Tsurugi said:


> Wouldn't really call Morsi a dictator, considering he was democratically elected and hasn't been in power very long.


Give it a few years.

But yeah, its hyperbole. But he was certainly taking authoritarian steps to consolidate his power. What with trying to enshrine all that Islamist shit in the new constitution.

I really think it a good thing him getting ousted though. In the long run it'll make Egypt a more democratic society. It certainly will make future Egyptian leaders gun-shy towards ever trying to take steps that could in any way be perceived as autocratic. Which is a good thing for a democracy to have. Governments should fear the people, etc.


Blue said:


> To be honest I hope I'd have the courage to do the same thing as Morsi. He was democratically elected, and the stupid fucking mongrels that he has to call his countrymen don't understand democracy well enough to know that to throw out a democratic government, you wait for fucking election day.
> 
> The alternative is dictatorship or anarchy.
> 
> He's standing between Egyptian democracy - the first ever - and a return to the dark ages. He should stay.


True courage would been calling new elections. He had clearly lost legitimacy from the vast majority of people.

While it doesn't speak much for a societies stability, its generally a good idea for democracies to have mechanisms to recall leaders. Giving their populace an option to democratically remove a leader early if they're really fucking up is a potent tool to keep leaders from going to extremes.

And that's what they were essentially doing. They were getting petitions for essentially a recall election.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 2, 2013)

> *SCAF will fight against 'terrorists', 'extremists', Egyptian Armed Forces statement*
> Last modified: 3 Jul 2013 03:51
> 
> Share
> ...


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 2, 2013)

Oh shit, Morsi has to be sweating balls now


----------



## Fiona (Jul 2, 2013)

Morsi HAS to back down. 

Otherwise the military will MAKE him back down. 

I also find it hilarious that just might be one of the few instances where america is totally okay with a military rising up against a "Democracy"


----------



## Sarry (Jul 2, 2013)

That's good to read/hear. Bye bye MB.

Can't wait to see how Pro-Morsi people justify his illegitimacy


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue said:


> >Despotism
> >Democratically elected
> 
> Pick one?



Hitler was democratically elected and everything he did to get to power was allowed for in the constitution


----------



## lacey (Jul 3, 2013)

Was quite dumb of Morsi to not back down when he had the chance.
Now he's really screwed.


----------



## Roman (Jul 3, 2013)

Fiona said:


> I also find it hilarious that just might be one of the few instances where america is totally okay with a military rising up against a "Democracy"



Quite funny too how some people were laughing at Egypt complaining about Mosri after they elected him


----------



## steveht93 (Jul 3, 2013)

In Egypt they are ready to oust another asshole and the Syrians.......L.O.L


----------



## Selva (Jul 3, 2013)

morsi should've stepped down already but he's an idiot.
i hope it won't turn bloody and ugly now ><


----------



## Roman (Jul 3, 2013)

According to my friend in Egypt, 16 are already dead in Cairo, but it looks like the Morsi supporters are vastly outnumbered, especially now with the military backing the protesters. Fingers crossed that it won't get any worse than it already has.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> MB tyranny of the majority-like regime would have been worse for the country.


"Tyranny of the majority" is what the minority calls a democracy when they don't like where it's going.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue said:


> "Tyranny of the majority" is what the minority calls a democracy when they don't like where it's going.



It's actually called ochlocracy, not democray. Your definition of democracy would allow for things like apartheid.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

> ABC News        ✔ @ABC
> 
> #Breaking: Egyptian TV reports #Morsi under house arrest   #Egypt
> 11:21 AM - 3 Jul 2013



Unverified but it looks like Morsi's been put under house arrest.




Blue said:


> "Tyranny of the majority" is what the minority calls a democracy when they don't like where it's going.


The thing was MB isn't exactly the majority. Rather they're just the most organized.

And then the true majority organized against them. It is democracy in the literal sense.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> And then the true majority organized against them. It is democracy in the literal sense.



[Citation needed]


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue said:


> "Tyranny of the majority" is what the minority calls a democracy when they don't like where it's going.



Yep. Seems common outside the US. When one party cannot be defeated politically, claim tyranny.


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Yep. Seems common outside the US. When one party cannot be defeated politically, claim tyranny.



And in the U.S. we never see people calling Obama/Bush/whatever Hitler, nope.....

Edit: Well, technically your sentence does not exclude political intolerance existing inside Murica, so I will let it slip.

This time


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 3, 2013)

We don't protest. It's mostly shit talking on the internet. We certainly don't start coups.

Come to think of it, when is the last time we had a significant anti-government protest? Glenn Beck?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue said:


> [Citation needed]


Democracy
The term originates from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokrat?a) "rule of the people"


Direct Democracy


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> We don't protest. It's mostly shit talking on the internet. We certainly don't start coups.



Well to be fair, the Coup was started by the military. Though I have no doubts the protesters would have tried one eventually, given that they burned MB buildings.


----------



## Jin-E (Jul 3, 2013)

> Syria: Morsi's departure key
> to solving Egypt crisis
> 
> Egypt will overcome its current crisis if President Mohamed Morsi leaves office, Syria's Information Minister Omran al-Zohbi said on Wednesday, as massive protests against the Islamist leader went into their fourth day.
> ...



Lol, Syria trolling hard


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

> Military vehicles heading in direction of pro Morsi rally pic.twitter.com/74n7NBWlpc





> Islamists fighting with officers. Commander orders soldiers down from vehicles pic.twitter.com/QM3yZteXVd



Oh I hope the Islamists do something stupid giving the army an excuse to exterminate them


----------



## iander (Jul 3, 2013)

I love the popular protest and all but I am very wary of the military taking the reins of the transition. It will be very easy for them to subvert the popular will if they take power again just as they have done many times before. Egypt won't be doing well until it sidelines Islamists and the Military. Good luck though, they are the two largest power blocs.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 3, 2013)

Deadline expired, MB didn't respond. Military has just removed Morsi from power



Islamists have vowed to resist the action.

As for how Israeli's view all of this:


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Deadline expired, MB didn't respond. Military has just removed Morsi from power
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ryan Reynolds is jewish ?


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Ryan Reynolds is jewish ?



He's in Hollywood. So that goes without saying.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> He's in Hollywood. So that goes without saying.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
YOU CANT TAKE HIM AWAY

NOW I DONT FEEL SAD FOR ISRAEL FALLING IN WORLD WAR Z


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 3, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> NOW I DONT FEEL SAD FOR ISRAEL FALLING IN WORLD WAR Z



Yet again, that was the Palestinians fault.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Democracy
> The term originates from the Greek δημοκρατία (dēmokrat?a) "rule of the people"
> 
> 
> Direct Democracy



I meant that the Morsi detractors are the majority. It's safe to say that his approval rating is under 50%, but there's a difference between disapproving of job performance and wanting to remove from office.



Elim Rawne said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> YOU CANT TAKE HIM AWAY
> 
> NOW I DONT FEEL SAD FOR ISRAEL FALLING IN WORLD WAR Z



God damn that fucking movie was stupid.


----------



## Saishin (Jul 3, 2013)

I'm watching the tv news right now,a coup by the militaries is under way and from what I heard it seems Morsi is under arrest now

*Egypt in Crisis: Live*


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Yet again, that was the Palestinians fault.



ITS JEWISH LIBERAL NEOCON MEDIA ELITE THAT CHANGED THE MOVIE


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 3, 2013)

Egypt has a vice-president right?
Egypt has a vice-president right?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

makeoutparadise said:


> Egypt has a vice-president right?
> Egypt has a vice-president right?



Pretty sure they don't much care for following protocol right now.
From what the press said, the military wants to install an interim government of technocrats.


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

Thanks to Mursi oil is going past $100 again.


----------



## Madara103084 (Jul 3, 2013)

So what's going on now? I guess I have to read up on it.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 3, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Hitler was democratically elected and everything he did to get to power was allowed for in the constitution



Actually he wasn't.  He was in second place in the German elections but was given power by the German president cause they thought he could be controlled.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> Actually he wasn't.  He was in second place in the German elections but was given power by the German president cause they thought he could be controlled.



How does that contradict what I said? Are chancellors or prime minister elected democratically or are they despots?


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 3, 2013)

Army has just appointed Chief Justice of the Egyptian Supreme Court (Aldy Mansour) President.


----------



## KyuubiFan (Jul 3, 2013)

Interesting. Are there going to be new elections, or will the MB try to turn it into a bloodbath?


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Army has just appointed Chief Justice of the Egyptian Supreme Court (Aldy Mansour) President.



Haha, revenge for the judicial power grab. I'm okay with this.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 3, 2013)

KyuubiFan said:


> Interesting. Are there going to be new elections, or will the MB try to turn it into a bloodbath?



Not like they can, they're outnumbered by both the military and regular citizens.

New presidential elections are supposedly soon.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jul 3, 2013)

This is a very dicey situation. Even if the April 6 movement get what they want: elections, and a government that fulfilled the needs of the people, would the MB simply quiesce? That doesn't seem likely. What of the military?



Shinigami Perv said:


> Yep. Seems common outside the US. When one party cannot be defeated politically, claim tyranny.


The MB will be defeated easily in a poll. Morsi got 13.23 million votes in the election - 22 million signed a petition of no confidence in him, and the reports on the evening news estimated over (some say well over) 18 million people across Egypt were out on the streets against him. He had the boon of running against Mubarak's prime minister in the election at that (who still got 48.3%). The military shouldn't have had to intervene, he should have resigned in acknowledgement of the democratic recall.


----------



## Mansali (Jul 3, 2013)

Morsi and his MB are a bunch of dumb ass monkeys. 

Even thought I do not agree with the MB winning the election I still felt that the Arab Spring brought Egypt closer to a democracy. Now that the people were more empowered they had a bigger say on how their country should be run. 

At the same time I felt that Morsi was smarter than that. But instead he went ape-shit and crafted that stupid new constitution. How can anyone with a brain think that the people would just ignore that BS. This is the first time that the MB had a chance to prove themselves. But instead they acted like a bunch of numskulls and blew their chances away.


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

Egyptians take action. Here in America we complain on Yahoo News.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 3, 2013)

Military will probably be keeping a close eye on the MB for some time to come. True, the bulk of the Brotherhood's resistance are untrained and poorly equipped militia, so its doubtful they'll resist militarily. Still, if the new government can't get the economy stable (Which as Mega mentioned, is possible if they can seriously cutback their military spending, though very unlikely), it won't be long before the MB exploits that situation under the guise of "Give us another chance".


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

navy said:


> Egyptians take action. Here in America we complain on Yahoo News.



Ok then rally the military to stage a coup.

C'mon it's easy here, right?


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

Mael said:


> Ok then rally the military to stage a coup.
> 
> C'mon it's easy here, right?



Okay. Let me get my illegally concealed  pistol and we can get started.


----------



## Platinum (Jul 3, 2013)

Well that went as expected.


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

What's stopping another Morsi from getting elected?


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 3, 2013)

erictheking said:


> The MB will be defeated easily in a poll. Morsi got 13.23 million votes in the election - 22 million signed a petition of no confidence in him, and the reports on the evening news estimated over (some say well over) 18 million people across Egypt were out on the streets against him. He had the boon of running against Mubarak's prime minister in the election at that (who still got 48.3%). The military shouldn't have had to intervene, he should have resigned in acknowledgement of the democratic recall.



The job approval of our congress hovers between 9% and 15%. I could probably get 80% of Americans to vote "no confidence" on this congress. Doesn't matter. When the votes were tallied up, this is what we got. The military doesn't step in and remove them despite being grossly incompetent, bought off and generally acting against the interests of the public. 

A re-election is fine as long as political parties aren't banned. If the military runs the show, and can topple any president it wants, the presidency is nothing more than a military dictatorship by another name. Let's hope a more palatable option is chosen honestly and not because other options were under house arrest like in Iran.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 3, 2013)

navy said:


> Egyptians take action. Here in America we complain on Yahoo News.



We don't have as much crap to deal with from our Government as the Egyptians do.  Give us a little slack, lol.



navy said:


> What's stopping another Morsi from getting elected?



Nothing.  If people are stupid anything can happen.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 3, 2013)

The US Embassy in Cairo has been evacuated. 

The MB has called for sit ins and protests of actions of the military

*Morsi still claims to be president of Egypt and That he is Still Willing To Negotiate *


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

On one hand I dont mind the overthrow, but on the other-hand he was democratically elected...


----------



## Fiona (Jul 3, 2013)

navy said:


> On one hand I dont mind the overthrow, but on the other-hand he was democratically elected...



By a narrow margin and then he proceeded to drive the country into ruin. 

Whether as a direct result of himself or his cabinet the country suffered even more under his reign. 

I have no issues with this takeover at all. 

When it comes down to single politician or political party driving the country into ruin it is the right of the people to overthrow said person or group in order to save their nation.


----------



## Mider T (Jul 3, 2013)

There's still a large amount of Morsi supporters.

Someone change the title of this thread.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 3, 2013)

> Someone change the title of this thread.


Do it yourself, you lazy fuck.


----------



## Vegeta's Urine (Jul 3, 2013)

Al Jazeera says its offices has been stormed by the military, they were shut down and many were arrested.
The military will only allow news that they want.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

Mider T said:


> There's still a large amount of Morsi supporters.
> 
> Someone change the title of this thread.



Better now?


----------



## Stunna (Jul 3, 2013)

Yes.**


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jul 3, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> The job approval of our congress hovers between 9% and 15%. I could probably get 80% of Americans to vote "no confidence" on this congress. Doesn't matter. When the votes were tallied up, this is what we got. The military doesn't step in and remove them despite being grossly incompetent, bought off and generally acting against the interests of the public.
> 
> A re-election is fine as long as political parties aren't banned. If the military runs the show, and can topple any president it wants, the presidency is nothing more than a military dictatorship by another name. Let's hope a more palatable option is chosen honestly and not because other options were under house arrest like in Iran.



No - the Tamarrod petition which collected over 22 million signatures called for Morsi's resignation. It is not remotely analogous to a "job approval rating". 

This idea floating around here that the principle of a political party being recalled during its term 'undermines democracy' is simply the opposite of the truth. Underlying it is a specific conception of democracy that strictly limits accountability to one vote every 4 or 5 years, regardless of how far the government diverges from the platform it was elected on. It completely guts the merits of democracy as far as I'm concerned.

This is essentially a popular recall, not a traditional military coup. Of course I don't think political parties should be banned - and Egyptian secularists and leftists have been criticising the SCAF's repression of MB media (arresting all the staff at one TV station), and sensibly so. I don't think the MB will be banned, but I'm sure they'll be punished severely by the electorate. It seems likely that the power of the military is going to be an issue for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 3, 2013)

I just hope that the extreme religious parties get a major crackdown after this election/protest. They serve no good what so ever.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jul 3, 2013)

What kind of "major crackdown"?


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 3, 2013)

Considering the muslim brotherhood is a terror group they should be dealt with in a harsh fashion.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jul 3, 2013)

So you want to drive this terror group underground? You can't arrest or murder them all.


----------



## lacey (Jul 3, 2013)

I was trying to find this thread, and it took me a minute to realize the title had been changed. 

Well, this was expected. I doubt MB is going to take it calmly however. 



Fiona said:


> The US Embassy in Cairo has been evacuated.
> 
> The MB has called for sit ins and protests of actions of the military
> 
> *Morsi still claims to be president of Egypt and That he is Still Willing To Negotiate *



Is he really now? The military storms in, and _then_ he wants to talk? What an idiot.


----------



## Linkofone (Jul 3, 2013)

When I saw this thread, I actually thought that there were a large population of monkeys causing trouble near the Nile River.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 3, 2013)

Wars about to commence in Egypt. 

You have the Mursi supporters, understanding that Islam may suffer without him. Then you have the extreme salafi group that just betrayed Mursi. You then have the people who want Shariah/Caliphate etc. who opposed Mursi, saying he "didn't do enough", and then you have the tiny minority secularists who are playing these three against each other like tools.

I'm more worried about this group;



> I voted for President Morsi, but I regret it. I hoped his performance would be better than this. He doesn't take firm decisions, and when he does, he doesn't keep them.
> 
> I expected President Morsi to be much stronger, to preserve the dignity of Egyptians abroad, but we are still being humiliated by countries like Ethiopia. I don't see any improvement. *I wish he'd implement the Islamic project - as he promised - and Sharia law, that's why we voted for him.*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23096848





> We assumed that he was up to the job, but unfortunately he isn't. I will not protest against him though. These protests are not in the best interest of the country. Even if we want to judge him, we need to give him a proper chance. Honestly, one year is not enough to fix what 30 years of corruption have left behind. It's very difficult.
> There's nothing I can do. I'm helpless and the only thing I'm asking for is to live with dignity.* I voted for Morsi, I thought he was a religious man, and knew God and knew about the poor people.* My family paid a fortune to educate me and I was able to secure a degree in agriculture, but I have never been able to get a job in the government.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23096848





> "It's fine," says Mohamed Tariq, a 16-year-old student carrying a drum emblazoned with the word 'Egypt'.  He added: "It's either an Islamist state, or we get martyred."
> *  said Badr Badradin, an advertising agent who feels Morsi hasn't done  enough to promote Islamist rule. "But it's not just about Morsi. It's  about the future of political Islam. He just happens to be its face  right now."
> *
> Many anti-Morsi protesters see him as a betrayal of the revolution – but  those here are living in a parallel universe. "Sisi said he would stand  with the people. But those in Tahrir are not with the people,"  Abdel-Maksoud claimed. "They represent the old regime."
> He added: "If they remove Morsi, I hope it does not go that way, but there will be a war on the streets."



Basically, Al-Nour party and these Muslims have not thought this one through at all. They think removing Mursi is somehow going to improve their situation, including from a religious perspective. 

Anyways, pro Mursi Supporters - 





My sources in Egypt are telling me that people aren't willing to take it, some of those who originally supported Al-Nour party are turning over, and people are starting to see the situation for what it is.

Alot of women in hijab/niqaab are also being harassed/raped, including people with beards. 

There's going to be war. Alot of negative rumours are also spreading about the army and their intentions.


----------



## Blue (Jul 3, 2013)

> "It's fine," says Mohamed Tariq, a 16-year-old student carrying a drum emblazoned with the word 'Egypt'. "If he goes down, we'll bring down the president they elect."



This is WHY you don't fuck with democratically elected leaders.


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

> There's going to be war, and the Muslim world will finally realise, that theocracy is not for us, and never will be.



Fixed for actual human progress.



> "It's either an Islamist state, or we get martyred."



Get martyred then.  There's almost 7 billion people on this planet. Do you think we'll cry over the loss of one such as yourself?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

baconbits said:


> Nothing.  If people are stupid anything can happen.


Yeah, I'm fully expecting the various opposition groups will coalesce as some Anti-MB party.

Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if that coalition in the future breaks apart and this Anti-MB party generally becomes the center-left party of the country.

And MB moderates a bit and becomes the center-right party.

And the Salafists become the tea party which nobody wants a part of that crazy.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 3, 2013)

Vegeta's Urine said:


> Al Jazeera says its offices has been stormed by the military, they were shut down and many were arrested.
> The military will only allow news that they want.




A lot of blood is going to be shed, because of the actions by the Military. People are starting to see this for what it is (in regards to going back to the old regime).

Unfortunately, Mursi wasn't able to do anything to the Army in his 1 year in power (which isn't that long). The old remnants of Mubarak are still there. 

Pray for Egypt.


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

This thread title is racist. I demand a change.


----------



## Chelydra (Jul 3, 2013)

navy said:


> This thread title is racist. I demand a change.



Monkeys don't live in Egypt so its fine


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 3, 2013)

Ok, I'll ignore the derogatory comments (including the thread title by immature mods) and by people who have no clue of the situation.



Blue said:


> This is WHY you don't fuck with democratically elected leaders.




Most people in Egypt want Shariah anyways, but the situation is so complicated now because of the economical situation etc.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue said:


> This is WHY you don't fuck with democratically elected leaders.


Well what's generally the smart thing is to have the ability to do citizen's recall petitions. That way if the country gets buyer's remorse, there's a civil way to deal with it. Collecting petitions to force a new election.

Hopefully their next constitution will allow that


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

Apparently Syria and Tunisia disagree...


----------



## Fiona (Jul 3, 2013)

This is gonna turn into a bloodbath


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> One good thing that will come out of this is that, Muslims will finally realise, Democracy, Secularism etc. is not for us, it never has been and never will be.
> 
> Most people in Egypt want Shariah anyways, but the situation is so complicated now because of the economical situation etc.


Why are you so intent on living in a society from a thousand years ago 

Much as I find medieval fiction to be interesting, I have no interest in living in a feudal society.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Jul 3, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> You have the Mursi supporters, understanding that Islam may suffer without him. Then you have the extreme salafi group that just betrayed Mursi. You then have the people who want Shariah/Caliphate etc. who opposed Mursi, saying he "didn't do enough", and then you have the tiny minority secularists who are playing these three against each other like tools.


You do realise that publicly available facts, such as er, the election results, comprehensively disprove that 'analysis' of the Egyptian electorate? You've just pulled that out of your arse.


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

Theocracies once again belong in the past.  Progression does not come from complete reliance on an existential deity that might not even exist.


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

Chelydra said:


> Monkeys don't live in Egypt so its fine



That's precisely why it's racist.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 3, 2013)

Looool who changed the thread title. Don't blame me


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

Blue, das racist.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 3, 2013)

* “This is the same [Egyptian] army that, just a few months ago, was responsible for the Maspero massacre, that unleashed angry mobs against the peaceful protesters who objected to its rule, that conducted virginity tests on Egyptian women, and that subjected 12,000 civilians to military trials.”*
—  	

Mohamed El Dahshan


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> You mean the 51% who voted for an Islamist, and the 21% who voted for an even bigger Islamist?
> 
> Sit down please. And the table results are done by Gallup, look them if you must.



Voter's reMorsi. 

Still, people got it wrong, and those who want even more theocratic policies should look at the absurdity with Saudi Arabia and Iran.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 3, 2013)

Protests in Egypt is as common as Aizen fodderising. :amazed


----------



## navy (Jul 3, 2013)

Protest in Egypt is like Naruto learning a new rasengan.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 3, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> When I saw this thread, I actually thought that there were a large population of monkeys causing trouble near the Nile River.



I am a bit disappointed too; I was hoping I'd see something like this:

[YOUTUBE]v4fDR-LAlPQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 3, 2013)

Morsi is in custody at the Defense Ministry and the Army has issued arrest warrants for 300 top MB officials. 



Round up the rats!


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 3, 2013)

Mudaari apologizing for Islamists, news at 11.


----------



## Utopia Realm (Jul 3, 2013)

Now for the Hide and Seek Championship 2013 begins Mega.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 3, 2013)




----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

Because they had voters reMorsi for the umpteenth time...plus Morsi was really enacting measures to erode what democracy remained like he used it as a tool to be disposed so Islamism couldn't ever lose power in Egypt.

Thank God for small miracles.


----------



## Linkofone (Jul 3, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> I am a bit disappointed too; I was hoping I'd see something like this:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]v4fDR-LAlPQ[/YOUTUBE]



I know, I was expecting some light-hearted article about local escaped zoo monkeys causing trouble among citizens. Not some deep subject that I can't seem to grasp.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 3, 2013)

Only reason people voted Morsi into power was because the guy he was running against was Mubarak's former PM.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 3, 2013)

maybe because said leader drove the country into the ground? 

There is no irony in it at all.


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

Fiona said:


> maybe because said leader drove the country into the ground?
> 
> There is no irony in it at all.



Morsi was going to be awful for Egypt and further antagonize Israel and other parts of the ME.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 3, 2013)

Granted, Egypt always has kind of been passive-aggressive with Isreal since Sadat made peace, (and got killed for it).

The big question now is whether or not the new government will stop referring to Hamas as "heroic freedom fighters'


----------



## Lina Inverse (Jul 3, 2013)

when I saw the title I thought monkeys invaded a place called De Nile


----------



## Linkofone (Jul 3, 2013)

Lina Inverse said:


> when I saw the title I thought monkeys invaded a place called De Nile



Thats similar to what I thought.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

>Watching news reports on the Egypt stuff
>Fireworks over Tahrir Square

Heh. Egypt is getting 4th of July early.


----------



## lacey (Jul 3, 2013)

Come to think of it, the timing couldn't have been better in that regard, haha.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoLywiaM6PA[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## ExoSkel (Jul 3, 2013)

*Mohammed Morsi Overthrown, Army kicks out Muslim Brotherhood from power in Egypt*



> CAIRO ? Egypt?s military officers removed the country?s first democratically elected president, Mohamed Morsi, on Wednesday, suspended the Constitution and installed an interim government presided over by a senior jurist.
> 
> Tahrir Square, where tens of thousands of opponents of the government had gathered each night since Sunday to demand Mr. Morsi?s removal, erupted in fireworks and jubilation at news of the ouster. At a square near the presidential palace where Mr. Morsi?s Islamist supporters had gathered, men broke into tears and vowed to stay until he was reinstated or they were forcibly removed. ?The dogs have done it and made a coup against us,? they chanted. ?Dying for the sake of God is more sublime than anything,? a speaker declared.
> 
> ...




Big day for Egypt. First successful coup in Middle East with less amount of bloodshed.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 3, 2013)

Hoooray???????


----------



## Dolohov27 (Jul 3, 2013)

Are they blaming the jews yet ??


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 3, 2013)

Already a thread on this.


----------



## Stannis (Jul 3, 2013)

This is just sad. To overthrow the first president in the country's history  that came with a democratic way by army coup...  Hopefully they can go through the next few months peacefully and things get better after the elections.


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

Boshi said:


> This is just sad. To overthrow the first president in the country's history  that came with a democratic way by army coup...  Hopefully they can go through the next few months peacefully and things get better after the elections.



Everyone makes mistakes.  Hopefully this time they'll learn not to go Islamist with baggage.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 3, 2013)

*Okay so we are clear the new Egyptian constitution will have a provision in which a democratically elected president can be overthrown if enough people are in Tahir square and start a riot and the Army has to intervene. Checks and balances! the system works!!!!*


----------



## Mael (Jul 3, 2013)

For people claiming that it's such a shame that the first democratically elected president, despite being sympathetic to Islamic terrorism and initiating measures that makes PRISM look silly, gets overthrown by the military to establish a more sensible ruler, there's a reason the Mulligan exists.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 3, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]1tWtk30W0ck[/YOUTUBE]
Skip to 1:10


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 4, 2013)

what is he saying hwy is it funny?


----------



## Sarry (Jul 4, 2013)

^^From what i understand, in the beginning the dude with the glasses is saying that Morsi's speech was BS, and the president was threatening to harm his own population. 
Operations from using Terrorists in the Sinai, Snipers in streets, and etc. He started to scream saying that the Morsi is a liar, a conman and a leader of a certain group(couldn't understand as he started choking)

Afterwards, he continues about the MB's and Morsi's shitty behaviour.


In short, he's very passionate about it, and this is a good thing. 



Mael said:


> For people claiming that it's such a shame that the first democratically elected president, despite being sympathetic to Islamic terrorism and initiating measures that makes PRISM look silly, gets overthrown by the military to establish a more sensible ruler, there's a reason the Mulligan exists.



Indeed, the Egyptians do deserve a do-over to get a more responsive government. Or at least better representation and constitution.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 4, 2013)

kandaron said:


> [YOUTUBE]1tWtk30W0ck[/YOUTUBE]
> Skip to 1:10



He seems upset


----------



## dummy plug (Jul 4, 2013)

Mael said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/01/us-egypt-protests-benisuef-idUSBRE96000R20130701



i hope this is the last casualty report but we all know it wont be


----------



## lacey (Jul 4, 2013)

kandaron said:


> [YOUTUBE]1tWtk30W0ck[/YOUTUBE]
> Skip to 1:10



I thought he was going to have a heart attack.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 4, 2013)

*Shots fired pro-Morsi protest near a Cairo mosque as many of the men were praying. Multiple casualties.  

*
*The attackers wore plain clothes, just like Egypt's glory days.  

*لا حول ولا قوه الا با الله*
All I can predict now is that the pharoahs of Egypt are coming back more  forcefully and brutally but this is the last time Inshallah.

*Also; 

Which is brilliant news, as approval from the Americans in such a situation can never be a good thing. Will certainly make some Egyptians who picked the wrong side reflect.



Dolohov27 said:


> Are they blaming the jews yet ??




Well, some of the protesters are singing "Mursi is a Israeli agent and slave of America" chants  

For example;

[youtube]0UaHUKnaWUw[/youtube]


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't like the now former president of Egypt because by most accounts, under his leadership, the country has eroded worse than the buildings built by ancient Egyptians. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the Egyptians have a bit of a revolution fetish and unrealistic hopes: they are surely aware that a revolution and change of government system won't bring about change over night in national culture and the economy and everything else in the country... it will take decades - at least - for the country to transition from government dominated by corrupt politicians to one that has less corruption. The economy also needs time to change and the drivers of that change should not be the president, but rather the people themselves. I recall what an awesomess president once said: 

[YOUTUBE]JLdA1ikkoEc[/YOUTUBE]

Too often, the people expect miracles from their leader and when the leader inevitably fails, they turn on him/her.... although usually their dissatisfaction falls short of bashing their leader's skull in. ...I suppose moderation is a western thing. 

I also don't like the silly celebrations by the army; after a military coup, the protestors look as though they're celebrating something to be happy about... the reality is they are celebrating the failure of their country and its government...    ...talk about delusions.... :amazed:amazed



Al Mudaari said:


> *Shots fired pro-Morsi protest near a Cairo mosque as many of the men were praying. Multiple casualties.
> 
> *
> *The attackers wore plain clothes, just like Egypt's glory days.
> ...



Yes yes, they should've waited for the elections to kick Morsi out of office, like all real democracies... but should we listen to a terrorist like you? That damn name alone scares the fucking shit out of me.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

So can Independance Day in Egypt be July 4th now?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 4, 2013)

Blue said:


> So can Independance Day in Egypt be July 4th now?



Depends. Do you really think the new president will make it more than a year?


----------



## Sarry (Jul 4, 2013)

Honestly, this revolution should have been done now than wait longer. 
Democracy doesn't just mean electing a president and leaving him there. It means that a president's actions are accountable for. 
Morsi stopped being a democratic leader the moment he granted himself immunity from any review. His term was filled with decisions to cement blind islamic law, and struggle with the military.  
There is no guarantee that if elections came, the MB would play it fair and not force people into revoting for them.

Oh well, Morsi fans(everywhere) love to bring up the democracy card  in defense of Morsi's shitty rule.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Depends. Do you really think the new president will make it more than a year?



Maybe.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 4, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Depends. Do you really think the new president will make it more than a year?





Blue said:


> Maybe.


It depends on if the new administration, whenever that comes around, is effectual.

If not, then MB will take every opportunity they can to poach them. With intense amounts of butthurt.

But I can definitely see the majority of the country (the actual majority, not Al Maduri's pulling out of ass figures) creating a coalition which can last for a significant time by marginalizing MB and Salafists.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 4, 2013)

> *Turkey Calls Military Overthrow Of Egypt's Mohammed Morsi 'Unacceptable' *
> 
> ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey, which had formed an emerging alliance with Egypt's ousted Islamist leader Muhammed Morsi, on Thursday slammed the democratically elected leader's overthrow by the military as "unacceptable" and called for his release from house arrest.
> 
> ...




Lol. Edrogan's sweating bullets.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 4, 2013)

They`re bashing the new guy for being a Christian apparently.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Lol. Edrogan's sweating bullets.



Democracies supporting democracies, how unusual.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 4, 2013)

More like he is worried cause of Turkey's history of  coups that get rid of leaders from time to time.  Considering him being unpopular these days it was obvious how he was going to come out.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> More like he is worried cause of Turkey's history of  coups that get rid of leaders from time to time.  Considering him being unpopular these days it was obvious how he was going to come out.



Erdogan's popular as fuck. A few chimps flinging poo at a park doesn't mean his government is about to collapse.

But yes, democracies support other democracies because militaries getting the idea it's okay to overthrow governments they don't like is tiresome.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 4, 2013)

Guess some people on here _finally_ have something in common with Saudi, Qatari etc. Both welcomed the new coup by the military. 



> Several TV stations sympathetic to the Brotherhood have been taken off the air, and a state-owned printing press is said to be refusing to print a newspaper run by the FJP.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23189180




Welcome to democracy and freedom of speech. Mursi allowed all stations to commence, even those that would speak ill of him during his reign. Soon as he comes off power, the Mubarak Era Military typically does what it's best at, oppression and suppression.

Tomorrow's Friday, for anyone that doesn't know, it's Jummah (around 1:30pm). Huge protests are going to commence after prayers.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 4, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Honestly, this revolution should have been done now than wait longer.
> Democracy doesn't just mean electing a president and leaving him there. It means that a president's actions are accountable for.



Actually, yes it means exactly what you've said. If not this way then why have a government at all? Seems you prefer government at household level.



> Morsi stopped being a democratic leader the moment he granted himself immunity from any review. His term was filled with decisions to cement blind islamic law, and struggle with the military.



Governments usually operate secretly. His term was fixed and if he tried to extend his term or disregarded laws made by the parliament and courts, then people might have a reasonable reason to overthrow the government. 



> There is no guarantee that if elections came, the MB would play it fair and not force people into revoting for them.



There's no guarantee that the next president will be Mr Perfect. And if there's no election and nobody works on it and the government has to constantly kiss public ass for random things like the banning of a bin in a park, then nothing will get done.  



> Oh well, Morsi fans(everywhere) love to bring up the democracy card  in defense of Morsi's shitty rule.



Shitty governments exist from time to time... shitty laws are made from time to time, but that's just life in democracies. You can't just turn Aladdin into the Genie and empower him with Allah almighty's blessing and watch your shitty country emerge as a new superpower. Come now, let's be realistic about this. This isn't Bruce Almighty.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 4, 2013)

The Israeli newspaper (al-Ma'arif) writes as its front page headline:
*
"Al-Sisi (minister who ordered coup against mursi) the hero who managed to take back Egypt from the grip of the Islamists and return it to our laps again"*

[youtube]qipf_tY2r2s[/youtube]

They're not going home anytime soon.



Sarry said:


> Oh well, Morsi fans(everywhere) love to bring up the democracy card  in defense of Morsi's shitty rule.




You fail to be objective here. If this wasn't a so called "Islamist", you'd be throwing a hissy fit in regards to how backward Muslims are for not being able to uphold democracy. You'd be out-raged if a military coup like this had happened in the UK or America.

Now that its happened in Egypt, and because of your emotional hate, you can't see past the reality here - instead, you'll justify anything based on your subjective moral approval. 

You don't need to be a Mursi supporter to know injustice has been been done. And soon, the Egyptians are going to rise up together against the Military.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 4, 2013)

Oh fuck off. Morsi was well on his way of installing himself as a dictator. If the US or the UK were pulling the same shit, people would be outraged too.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> You fail to be objective here. If this wasn't a so called "Islamist", you'd be throwing a hissy fit in regards to how backward Muslims are for not being able to uphold democracy. You'd be out-raged if a military coup like this had happened in the UK or America.



These are trufax


----------



## Jin-E (Jul 4, 2013)

I do have to lol at the EU and the US for skirting around calling this a military coup, which it obviously is. I guess it's easy to stick to principles when they are dealing with insignificant third world countries, less so with strategically important countries such as Egypt.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 4, 2013)

Blue said:


> These are trufax



Morsi won by less than 52% of the vote, a vote in which there were more than enough votes that were for some reason deemed invalid (and most of them were for his opponent) that would easily been called fraudulent in western democracies.  Also his run off was against a Mubarak loyalist who should not have even got close, that was how bad people thought of Morsi.  You had people voting against the Mubarak guy (not for him) and he still did not get a wide enough margine to basically over turn the other guy plus votes thrown out for no reason.

And then he kept changing Egyptian law to give himself more and more power.  And kept trying to Islamise Egypt against the Wishes of the Coptics and many within Egypt.  Doing this instead of building bridges and trying to build the economy.  If anything he wrecked it.  It is things like this that got people to go out onto the streets.  Things like this that had more Egyptians write in calling for him to step down than voted for him in the election.  (22 million wrote in compared to 13 million that voted him in.).  

In the eyes of the people he lost the mandate to rule and they came onto the street to call for early elections.  But instead of listening to the people he got the MB thugs to come out and attack the civilians, instead he should have said. "Yes I messed up but this is your country and I call elections on the presidency to take place in 3-5 weeks time." and if enough people wanted him to stay they would have voted for him.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> Morsi won by less than 52% of the vote



Obama won with less than 53%

TIME FOR THE REVOLUTION

I'm sorry I just ignored the rest of your post, I'll read it now.


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 4, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> ....



Ok. Does not change the fact that what was a really bad democracy is now at risk of turning into a military state. (An U.S. funded one at that, since their economy without aid cannot sustain that unproportionally large army. Once the America loses interest-->Chaos ensues)

Also does not change the fact that the MB, who still have approx 50% support have no reason to accept any of this (except threat of military violence),

So while I think nobody is shedding any tears for that asshole, celebrating this development as anything positive is a bit early.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 4, 2013)

Blue said:


> Obama won with less than 53%
> 
> TIME FOR THE REVOLUTION




Yup, in fact, in ratio, Mursi got more votes than Obama. 

Also, Obama runs the army, Mursi doesn't.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 4, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Yup, in fact, in ratio, Mursi got more votes than Obama.
> 
> Also, Obama runs the army, Mursi doesn't.


Obama didn't get nearly twice as many votes calling for his resignation, did he? Morsi won with 13 million votes...but 22 million people wanted him out of office.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 4, 2013)

Amazing video, some Coptic woman ends up taking Shahadah after seeing the injustice that just happened to Mursi;

[youtube]j7lf5ZhzWzc[/youtube]

Shows there are Copts who support Mursi.

Oh and here's a nice surprise (well, certainly not for me at least);

                                                                                              "We stand by Morsi against the Pharaohs" top trending in 





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obama didn't get nearly twice as many votes calling for his resignation, did he? Morsi won with 13 million votes...but 22 million people wanted him out of office.




That's such a silly example. 22 million out of what, 80-90 millions Egyptians? Whereas, Mursi won 51%+ of all those who had voted.

Had 80-90 million voted, then that means he would've got 50 million votes, you can't help how many people are eligible to vote in the elections. Mursi's votes were counted, with no evidence or whatsoever of corruption; whereas we have no actual reliable data for that 22 million figure - that's why the media keep stressing it's "alleged".

Also, a good portion of those "22 million" have switched sides, watch what happens tomorrow.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 4, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> *Morsi won by less than 52% of the vote, a vote in which there were more than enough votes that were for some reason deemed invalid (and most of them were for his opponent) that would easily been called fraudulent in western democracies*.  Also his run off was against a Mubarak loyalist who should not have even got close, that was how bad people thought of Morsi.  You had people voting against the Mubarak guy (not for him) and he still did not get a wide enough margine to basically over turn the other guy plus votes thrown out for no reason.



Perhaps people didn't count some votes as he won by 51%, thus making it mathematically impossible for the other guy to win. :amazed



> And then he kept changing Egyptian law to give himself more and more power.



Was there a law that prevented him giving himself powers in emergencies? And would the months/years after a major revolution that pretty much rendered police and other major players powerless call for such emergency powers? 



> And kept trying to Islamise Egypt against the Wishes of the Coptics and many within Egypt.  Doing this instead of building bridges and trying to build the economy.  If anything he wrecked it.  It is things like this that got people to go out onto the streets.



Valid point. Although the Islamising thing is part of their national identity; it's not evil by definition. And bridges aren't built over night, especially with a poverty-ridden populace.



> Things like this that had more Egyptians write in calling for him to step down than voted for him in the election.  (22 million wrote in compared to 13 million that voted him in.).



I call bullshit on this. Anyone with common sense can see it as the bullshit it is. For starters, the bias of the group plays a factor: they're called Rebels and they're a youth group. A bunch of 19 year old rugrats printing and forging votes isn't convincing anyone. The amount is also ridiculous. 22 million people voted? You're telling me that it's convincing that 22 million people allowed these babies to run an election and the turn out for them was greater than the real election? Who are you trying to kid?  



> In the eyes of the people he lost the mandate to rule and they came onto the street to call for early elections.



So any government that has poor approval ratings should pack their bags because the retards of the country know how to be politicians? And if you leave a trash can outside of their house, it's justification for a revolution and violence?  

The whole point of democracy is to win with the merits of your arguments and in a civilised a manner as possible. You don't start breaking necks whenever your life sucks or you hate a law.



> But instead of listening to the people he got the MB thugs to come out and attack the civilians, instead he should have said. "Yes I messed up but this is your country and I call elections on the presidency to take place in 3-5 weeks time." and if enough people wanted him to stay they would have voted for him.



Hold on a minute... what did the MB even attack with?  Have there been reports of Muslim dudes smothering people with their beards? Blindfolding people with their hats? Using the power of the Quran to compel the sinful? Making ear drums explode with their calls to pray? Perhaps people were herded over like victims of bullying and they fell over a Muslim dude as he bent over to pray on the streets? Ambulances couldn't pass due to a groups prayers on the streets? Internet connection was slow because they downloaded bazillions of Muslim porn? And people only had access to porn?  Muslim women dressed in black scared babies or were mistaken for the grim reaper? Gave guys heart attacks when they raised the weird hood-like veils to find the women had missing teeth and had three breasts and a penis on the head (not to mention an arm protruding out the back of their head)? 

Fact of the matter is the military was in complete control and the Muslim Brotherhood were simply testing their freedom of speech. The level of control the military had is evident by how easily they arrested Morsi without anyone even fighting back...unless it was with their beards..... and so forth... yeah, Islam isn't great, however, like I've said before, it's not evil by definition.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 4, 2013)

Of course Al Mudaari would support an islamist when the majority of people in Egypt wanted him out due to him not building bridges or focusing on repairing the economy, when he was turning the country into an Islamic Theocracy with him at the head.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 4, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Of course Al Mudaari would support an islamist when the majority of people in Egypt wanted him out due to him not building bridges or focusing on repairing the economy, when he was turning the country into an Islamic Theocracy with him at the head.




Cool story. Now cry over your hypocrisy


----------



## Sarry (Jul 4, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> You fail to be objective here. If this wasn't a so called "Islamist", you'd be throwing a hissy fit in regards to how backward Muslims are for not being able to uphold democracy. You'd be out-raged if a military coup like this had happened in the UK or America.
> 
> *Now that its happened in Egypt, and because of your emotional hate, you can't see past the reality here - instead, you'll justify anything based on your subjective moral approval.*
> 
> You don't need to be a Mursi supporter to* know injustice has been been done*. And soon, the Egyptians are going to rise up together against the Military.



Injustice? 
Morsi was a disastrous leader, who alienated most of the population, and focus on a very small minority. He tried to give himself complete immunity from any egyptian laws or court with a decree back in November, and that's when the protests began in earnest. He was becoming another dictator, had the protests didn't happen. No. There was no injustice.  Mosri was bad; him and the MB couldn't rule worth a dame. 

In other words. Morsi was incompetent, with no charisma, and made too many mistakes. 
He ignored the majority of people who didn't vote for him, and instead focused on a minority. He wasn't the best. He was not fit for the role, neither was the MB for that matter 

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Morsi and his allies in the Brotherhood's Guidance Council - Egypt's liberals called them his puppeteers - also made mistakes: *"He has been a disastrous leader," Shehata said. "Divisive, incompetent, heavy-handed and deaf to wide segments of Egyptian society who do not share his Islamist vision."*
> 
> Broken promises on the economy in particular, where people have suffered shrinking real incomes and lengthening lines for fuel, widened the appeal of a protest movement rooted in a liberal opposition that repeatedly lost elections to Islamists.
> 
> ...









This is why Morsi got removed from rule. Democracy is NOT just about elections. It is also about the actions, decisions and laws that follow. Democratic leaders should be accountable for their actions.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 4, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Cool story. Now cry over your hypocrisy



Is Al short for Alphonse?


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 4, 2013)

Sarry said:


> *




Oh please, don't show me those hand picked minority quotes (in regards to Islamic theocracy). You might want to read  and .

In fact, all emotional Americans who support the coup, here's a gift 

This made me lol though;





♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> Is Al short for Alphonse?




Nope. It's aliases that members of Al-Qaeda use, such as Al-Mudaari, Al-Mohammad, Al-Yusuf etc. The Al- is a prefix for Al-Qaeda's organization.

But, I thought this was obvious.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 4, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> You fail to be objective here. If this wasn't a so called "Islamist", you'd be throwing a hissy fit in regards to how backward Muslims are for not being able to uphold democracy. You'd be out-raged if a military coup like this had happened in the UK or America.
> 
> Now that its happened in Egypt, and because of your emotional hate, you can't see past the reality here - instead, you'll justify anything based on your subjective moral approval.
> 
> You don't need to be a Mursi supporter to know injustice has been been done. And soon, the Egyptians are going to rise up together against the Military.


Nah, pretty much any aspiring dictatorship's ouster would have been just as much celebrated.


----------



## Sarry (Jul 4, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Oh please, don't show me those hand picked minority quotes (in regards to Islamic theocracy). You might want to read  and .


So you ignored what i said and gave irrelevant twitter posts and ramblings of minorities. Ironic. 

You do realize there is a reason why millions of egyptians started protesting against such an ineffective, selfcentered government. 

Oh well. Like all morsi-fans, you don't want to accept that this time, the MB failed flat on it face. Good for you.


----------



## Blue (Jul 4, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Nope. It's aliases that members of Al-Qaeda use, such as Al-Mudaari, Al-Mohammad, Al-Yusuf etc. The Al- is a prefix for Al-Qaeda's organization.
> 
> But, I thought this was obvious.




I would have thought you were simply from Mudaari, whereever that is.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 4, 2013)

Blue said:


> I would have thought you were simply from Mudaari, whereever that is.



His name should mean, "The present".... I think.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 4, 2013)

Then why does he want to live in "the past"


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 4, 2013)

Loool Al-Mudaari is pretending he's a member of Al Qaeda? What a tool.


----------



## navy (Jul 4, 2013)

The NSA will be taking over this website shortly.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 4, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Loool Al-Mudaari is pretending he's a member of Al Qaeda? What a tool.


Nope, ♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ was being an idiot so he didn't take him seriously.

"Al" means "The" in Arabic (An oversimplification, perhaps).


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 5, 2013)

kandaron said:


> Nope, ♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ was being an idiot so he didn't take him seriously.
> 
> "Al" means "The" in Arabic (An oversimplification, perhaps).



BS, Al Mudaari wishes he is an Al Qaeda member just to get laid more. Disgusting.

And there's nothing wrong with thinking Al = Alphonse.


----------



## cag (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> The Israeli newspaper (al-Ma'arif) writes as its front page headline:
> *
> "Al-Sisi (minister who ordered coup against mursi) the hero who managed to take back Egypt from the grip of the Islamists and return it to our laps again"*





Well this definitely made my day. You actually believe in this bullshit?

First, some nitpicking. This isn't Maariv's front page headline, it's the front page of one of Maariv's supplements, namely its daily magazine(creatively named "The Magazine").

As for the actual content of the page, here's a snapshot of it I took from digital edition of Maariv.


You don't even need to be able to read Hebrew to notice a problem. See that 1 in the top left corner? This page isn't from yesterday's paper, it's from last monday, the first of July.

And here's a rough translation of what's actually written there:



> A general in a labyrinth
> 
> Morsi appointed him in an attempt to captivate the crowd after he removed general Tantawi, another representative of the old regime. Now, less than a year later, the defense minister, general Abdul Fatah Khalil Sisi, stands between the crowd and the president's supporters, as his orders to the army are expected to determine the future of Egypt.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

Live feed - 



Sarry said:


> So you ignored what i said and gave irrelevant twitter posts and ramblings of minorities. Ironic.




So you ignored reliable research data from Gallup (they're basically like Pew, but more focused on ME), and gave a complete in denial response? 

 It's your loss, not mine.



Sunuvmann said:


> Nah, pretty much any aspiring dictatorship's ouster would have been just as much celebrated.




I strongly recommend you read this; When is a military coup not a military coup? When it happens in Egypt, apparently - Comment - Voices - The Independent

Oh and;






kandaron said:


> Nope, ♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ was being an idiot so he didn't take him seriously.




Would've been perfect if it was Sarry who said it, complete Islamophobe;



Sarry said:


> but should we listen to a terrorist like you?





Sarry said:


> That damn name alone scares the fucking shit out of me.







cag said:


> This isn't Maariv's front page headline, *it's the front page of one of Maariv's supplements, namely its daily magazine(creatively named "The Magazine").*
> :




You think that makes a lot of difference lmao? 

And the statement has truth in it, the Army's already started; 

Not that I'm complaining or anything, as it's causing more and more people to come to their senses.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> And the statement has truth in it, the Army's already started;
> 
> Not that I'm complaining or anything, as it's causing more and more people to come to their senses.


Yes, how dare Egypt deny Hamas a key supply line and try to thaw relations with its neighbor.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Oh please, don't show me those hand picked minority quotes (in regards to Islamic theocracy). You might want to read  and .
> 
> In fact, all emotional Americans who support the coup, here's a gift
> 
> ...



Stop crying. more people called for Morsi to GTFO than elected him.  Which means he lost his mandate and needed to at the least call early elections at most apologize for being a bad president and walk out with dignity.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 5, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> Stop crying. *more people called for Morsi to GTFO than elected him*.  Which means he lost his mandate and needed to at the least call early elections at most apologize for being a bad president and walk out with dignity.



That's not true, unless of course we finally have something more credible than a youth group called Rebel that didn't print and sign papers 22 million times. They were even caught with copies with the same signatures.

I don't like Morsi and co, but you're just being plain retarded at best.



> CAIRO (AP) — More than 22 million Egyptians have signed a petition calling for the country's Islamist president to step down, the youth group leading the signature campaign said Saturday on the eve of mass protests aimed at forcing Mohammed Morsi from office.
> 
> *The Tamarod, or Rebel, youth movement* says its petition is evidence of the widespread dissatisfaction with Morsi's administration, and has used the signature drive as the focal point of its call for millions of people to take to the streets Sunday to demand the president's ouster.
> ."
> ...



The credibility that youth movement has is equal to the opinions and polls of this forum.... basically, it means less than shit.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 5, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> Stop crying. more people called for Morsi to GTFO than elected him.  Which means he lost his mandate and needed to at the least call early elections at most apologize for being a bad president and walk out with dignity.



No, I think you need to grant him the point that democracy is being overturned.  People did vote for this clown.  But democracy itself is not sacred, nor is it always right.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 5, 2013)

baconbits said:


> No, I think you need to grant him the point that democracy is being overturned.  People did vote for this clown.  But democracy itself is not sacred, nor is it always right.



This is indeed a better argument. 

I hope we don't see the shitty argument that just because 22 million fake petitions by a clearly biased group was collected printed that it somehow justifies a revolution. If any activist group has the kind of power, every country will have revolutions every year. Fuck, what's stopping other activist groups? I mean, all you need to justify a revolution and overwhelm a governments mandate is a very powerful printer and lots of paper. 



What happened exemplifies the fact that the average person like Nemesis has shit for brains and is gullible as a toddler! I am seriously annoyed being around so many dumbasses. I'm not highly intelligent by any stretch, but the amount of stupidity I see is depressing.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 5, 2013)

baconbits said:


> No, I think you need to grant him the point that democracy is being overturned.  People did vote for this clown.  But democracy itself is not sacred, nor is it always right.



This is so silly. Impeachment, recalls, etc. are all part of democracy. Removing an elected official doesn't not necessarily mean overturning democracy.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 5, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> This is so silly. Impeachment, recalls, etc. are all part of democracy. Removing an elected official doesn't not necessarily mean overturning democracy.


Exactly. Even the coup is doing new elections soon.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 5, 2013)

Egypt has been full of violence today, 2 Egyptian soldiers killed by Islamists in the Sinai and 5 Islamist protestors killed by the Army. A quasi-civil war seems to be more likely now. Syria is in ruins, Egypt is finished, Iraq is a sectarian mess, Lebanon is the weak Siamese twin attached to Syria's hip, and Jordan is next.  It's amazing how our neighbors are utterly incapable of running themselves.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 5, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Egypt has been full of violence today, 2 Egyptian soldiers killed by Islamists in the Sinai and 5 Islamist protestors killed by the Army. A quasi-civil war seems to be more likely now. Syria is in ruins, Egypt is finished, Iraq is a sectarian mess, Lebanon is the weak Siamese twin attached to Syria's hip, and Jordan is next.  It's amazing how our neighbors are utterly incapable of running themselves.


Of course, they'll all say its your country's fault.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

Watch the hypocrisy of people on this forum (as if there already isn't in regards to democracy and coup's);

*They're the same ones who condemned Turkish Police for using tear gas and rubber bullets against protesters, but they'll do everything to justify (or remain silent) the use of live rounds by the Egyptian military against civilian protesters in Egypt.*



> *Egyptian troops have opened fire on supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi marching in Cairo, killing three people and wounding dozens more.*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23202096




                                        MB protestor shot dead by army 



*Much anger at site of killing of MB protestor* . More people arriving from Rabaa al Adawiya direction.
                                                                         Retweeted by 

People are simply dictated by their hate. 




Anyways, Turks in support of Mursi;

[youtube]1SqhiQxY_fM[/youtube]




♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> The credibility that youth movement has is equal to the opinions and polls of this forum.... basically, it means less than shit.




It's bull crap, no evidence or authenticity or count for any of those polls. 

Not to mention, the Pro-Mursi rallies are completely eclipsing the anti-Mursi ones.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 5, 2013)

Kagekatsu said:


> Of course, they'll all say its your country's fault.







			
				Al Mudaari said:
			
		

> Watch the hypocrisy of people on this forum (as if there already isn't in regards to democracy and coup's);
> 
> They're the same ones who condemned Turkish Police for using tear gas and rubber bullets against protesters (kemalists), but they'll do everything to justify the use of live rounds by the Egyptian military against civilian protesters in Egypt.



It's hilarious how butthurt you are that your Jihadists got owned.


----------



## navy (Jul 5, 2013)

The only thing about Morsi's overthrowment is that I have not seen it was the will of the people....


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 5, 2013)

navy said:


> The only thing about Morsi's overthrowment is that I have not seen it was the will of the people....



22 million people have signed a petition of no confidence against him, millions have been out in the streets for days demanding that he be removed from office. Pro-Moris rallyes drew some tens of thousands by comparison. How hard is it to imagine that a hardcore islamist, who shat on every single demographic except hardcore islamists, no longer has the approval of the people?


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 5, 2013)

Basically, is this protest/coup proper conduct within the context of a Western liberal democracy? No, it isn't. But Egypt isn't a Western liberal democracy, and the group they ousted from power is very much against the idea of a Western liberal democracy despite being democratically elected. 

There's a huge culture gap between the US/EU and Egypt, which is why the former tends to so badly analyze the latter. Aka the Muslim Brotherhood were brave freedom fighters when they overthrew Mubarak, and now the military is bad for ousting a leader 1/4 of the nation went to the streets to protest again. Both of these things seem strange to the West, but not within the confines of Arab culture. It's why the West needs to listen us more on these issues.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

Alexandria earlier today;



Tahrir sq. (heart of Anti-Mursi protesters) is currently getting cleared by Mursi Supporters, however, there's lots of violence pursuing plus the presence of military.

Watch live stream (though it's in arabic) - 

Today, there were protests going on in...

Raabi' Adawiya
Zagazig
Fayoum
Al Manya
Port Said
October 6
Tanta
Kafr Sheikh
Banu Sweyf
Alexandria
Qena
Kafr Dawar
Helwan
North Sina
Asyut
Suhaj
and more...



The army screwed up completely by using live rounds, killing three people (potentially more), and injuring dozens - AND then trying to deny it (even western journalists actually saw it happen in front of them).


----------



## navy (Jul 5, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> 22 million people have signed a petition of no confidence against him, millions have been out in the streets for days demanding that he be removed from office. Pro-Moris rallyes drew some tens of thousands by comparison. How hard is it to imagine that a hardcore islamist, who shat on every single demographic except hardcore islamists, no longer has the approval of the people?



How do you know those 22 million people were real? 

Just because one side is more vocal doesnt make it larger.

You cant say you support democracy and then say you have no problem with the military ousting elected leaders and then having another election. What's stopping the military from ousting every elected leader until they are back in power? Nothing. In fact did they ever actually lose power to begin with?

Im sorry but Morsi was elected. Dude was barely in office for a year. Yes, Im fully aware he was terrible. How about putting a system in place to remove him legally instead of allowing the military to run amuck.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

@Megan: Yeah, Israel kinda has a vested interest in analyzing the mechanics of the Middle East and have been doing so with much more attention than the West ever has.

Though, Egypt probably isn't nearly as foreign a culture as the far east/more eastern arab states. What with being on the periphery of the West for a couple millenia. Interactions with Greece, etc. And being in the British/Western sphere of influence for the last two centuries.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 5, 2013)

Was able to catch CNN. There's a massive crowd for Morsi right now.

What are the military going to do if the Muslim Brotherhood is once again elected? Or will they be banned?


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> It's hilarious how butthurt you are that your Jihadists got owned.




Owned? I think you need to re-think this statement; Jihadists on the other hand, are pretty much laughing and having a "I told you so" moment - 

The one's who actually got owned, were those worldwide who supported democracy, and saw it got crapped on.


----------



## navy (Jul 5, 2013)

The military has been locking up media members and killing protestors. The other side isnt much better. This is why I hate the Middle Eastern region. So much conflict and violence and clearly no end currently in sight.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

Huge demo of pro-democracy protesters outside of republican guard HQ!


----------



## baconbits (Jul 5, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> This is indeed a better argument.
> 
> I hope we don't see the shitty argument that just because 22 million fake petitions by a clearly biased group was collected printed that it somehow justifies a revolution. If any activist group has the kind of power, every country will have revolutions every year. Fuck, what's stopping other activist groups? I mean, all you need to justify a revolution and overwhelm a governments mandate is a very powerful printer and lots of paper.
> 
> ...



It is sad but the issue is complex and people are making the mistake of trying to simplify it into bumper sticker statements.  "Democracy is good!"  "Islamists get owned!"



Saufsoldat said:


> This is so silly. Impeachment, recalls, etc. are all part of democracy. Removing an elected official doesn't not necessarily mean overturning democracy.



There was nothing silly about it.  You can argue that the will of the people changed but there was no impeachment, no recall and no vote taken.  What happened was a military coup.  

That doesn't mean I'm not on your side.  I just think there's no point in not granting Al Mudaari's point that this is not democracy in action.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 5, 2013)

> You can argue that the will of the people changed but there was no impeachment, no recall and no vote taken



Mainly because Horsecock changed the laws so that couldn't happen.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Maduri said:
			
		

> I strongly recommend you read this; When is a military coup not a military coup? When it happens in Egypt, apparently - Comment - Voices - The Independent
> 
> Oh and;



There have been a lot of democratically elected dictators.

As I don't want to Godwins law it, lets take Mugabe another example. I'm sure Zimbawe nowadays probably wish the military got rid of him before he completely wrecked their once thriving economy. 

And to answer the article: A military coup is not a military coup when it is acting in what would be universally renowned (except by those ousted) for the good of the people. If they hadn't intervened it probably would have been another civil war in the middle east.

Lives probably were saved.

And its the islamist's own fault. They overplayed their hand trying to consolodate their power and thus became seen as another tyrant like the old regime.


Oh and that picture actually makes sense with the literal definition of the word 'jihad' being 'struggle' (or something like that)

If a fake democracy has to be sacrificed to ensure a true one happens sooner than later, it is worth it.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Mainly because Horsecock changed the laws so that couldn't happen.


Pretty much. Morsi's fuckery with the constitution made it impossible for a democratic means of recall or other such ways of eliminating the aspiring despot.

So they did the direct democracy thing. Voting with their feet.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 5, 2013)

I feel like I need to bring up the "Democracy is two wolves and a ship voting on what's for dinner" quote in regards to Team Morsi continually playing the "DEMOCRACY" card


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Owned? I think you need to re-think this statement; Jihadists on the other hand, are pretty much laughing and having a "I told you so" moment -
> 
> The one's who actually got owned, were those worldwide who supported democracy, and saw it got crapped on.



It got crapped on because Morsi made a mockery of it.


----------



## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Kagekatsu said:


> I feel like I need to bring up the "Democracy is two wolves and a ship voting on what's for dinner" quote in regards to Team Morsi continually playing the "DEMOCRACY" card



That's a dumb analogy and I hope you don't live in a democracy because you don't deserve to

Here's another: A dictatorship is one sheep voting on everything, including the legality of wolf fur coats.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 5, 2013)

Technically, the United States, which is where I live, is not a democracy, but a republic. Same as Egypt. And with a republic comes institutions, checks and balances to prevent a tyranny of the majority. Which is what Morsi spent his presidency trying to remove in effort to create a one-party state.



Blue said:


> Here's another: A dictatorship is one sheep voting on everything, including the legality of wolf fur coats.


So what made Morsi different?


----------



## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Kagekatsu said:


> Technically, the United States, which is where I live, is not a democracy, but a republic.


A democratic republic, actually. Kind of like agnostic atheism, being two separate things together, but less likely to get Kaiba's panties sucked straight up his ass.



> So what made Morsi different?


Legitimacy.

Hollande is running with about a 20% approval rating in France right now. If they held an election he'd get approximately 3 votes. But despite the fact that France has had about 600 revolutions in the past 100 years, they're sucking it up and waiting out his 6 year term because that's what big boys who don't like military dictatorships do.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

New rule: No terrible analogies plz


----------



## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Constitutional republic.*


----------



## baconbits (Jul 5, 2013)

Elim Rawne said:


> Mainly because Horsecock changed the laws so that couldn't happen.



I didn't see him do that, but it's probably something I missed.  That doesn't mean that this wasn't a military coup, because it was.  It just happens to be a good one.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> Legitimacy.
> 
> Hollande is running with about a 20% approval rating in France right now. If they held an election he'd get approximately 3 votes. But despite the fact that France has had about 600 revolutions in the past 100 years, they're sucking it up and waiting out his 6 year term because that's what big boys who don't like military dictatorships do.



Hollande didn't try to rewrite the rulebook so that he and the Socialist Party can do whatever the fuck they wanted.


----------



## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

It's true Morsi tried, but he also failed, and to be fair it's not like there were any precedents.


----------



## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

I recall Chavez trying to pull this sort of shit too.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

@bacon: That's the key distinction. Taking of power for a purpose (stopping a would be despot) or for yourself. So far there has been limited to no inclination of the latter.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 5, 2013)

Possible outcomes

1 Army and Muslim brotherhood will some how reconcile their differences and the republic is saved

2 Egypt is plunged into a Syria like Civil war 

3 Muslim brother hood  loses hope in the democratic process and reverts to terrorism and gorilla warfare tatics against the goverment


----------



## navy (Jul 5, 2013)

The question is will the US still help Egypt before the elections. Legally they cant, but then again fuck  Islamist and the Brotherhood.


----------



## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

navy said:


> The question is will the US still help Egypt before the elections. Legally they cant, but then again fuck  Islamist and the Brotherhood.



Given the reaction behind anything Obama does...why the fuck bother?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> It's true Morsi tried, but he also failed, and to be fair it's not like there were any precedents.



In Egypt, not that I know of. In other countries? Plenty.


----------



## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> In Egypt, not that I know of. In other countries? Plenty.



Again, I remember Venezuela and other countries enacted measures that limited any form of criticism against the ruling government or severely limited opposition parties' abilities.

Democratic or not, sometimes you need a fucking Mulligan.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 5, 2013)

makeoutparadise said:


> Possible outcomes
> 
> 1 Army and Muslim brotherhood will some how reconcile their differences and the republic is saved
> 
> ...



If it comes to civil war, it will be a _very_ one-sided one in the military's favor.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 5, 2013)

Kagekatsu said:


> If it comes to civil war, it will be a _very_ one-sided one in the military's favor.



At which point it would turn into 3.


----------



## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Kagekatsu said:


> If it comes to civil war, it will be a _very_ one-sided one in the military's favor.



The globe-spanning military hyperpower we both know and love massacred Islamic fundamentalists day in and day out for 10 years to make Iraq simmer down.

What makes you think a bunch of entitled third-world flunkies with their 1980s Soviet gear are going to have any joy doing it?


----------



## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> The globe-spanning military hyperpower we both know and love massacred Islamic fundamentalists day in and day out for 10 years to make Iraq simmer down.
> 
> What makes you think a bunch of entitled third-world flunkies with their 1980s Soviet gear are going to have any joy doing it?



Turns out Iraq didn't simmer down (thank you false pretenses) and it took a lot of fed up Sunni tribes to show any sign of success.


----------



## Xyloxi (Jul 5, 2013)

I'd imagine Egyptians would have a much easier time rallying around their own military, which they so highly value as a national symbol than an invasive force from a country viewed as an oppressor. As well as the Egyptian army, as far as I'm aware is much better trained and armed than the Afghan army was/is?


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## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Xyloxi said:


> I'd imagine Egyptians would have a much easier time rallying around their own military, which they so highly value as a national symbol than an invasive force from a country viewed as an oppressor.



...Syria?

Do you guys even news?


----------



## baconbits (Jul 5, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> @bacon: That's the key distinction. Taking of power for a purpose (stopping a would be despot) or for yourself. So far there has been limited to no inclination of the latter.



True, but that doesn't mean this is not a military coup.  It's a good military coup.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

baconbits said:


> True, but that doesn't mean this is not a military coup.  It's a good military coup.


Oh its definitely a military coup.

But that term has a generally negative connotation (and from many a case, for good reason) which glosses over the complexity of the situation.


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## Xyloxi (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> ...Syria?
> 
> Do you guys even news?



Assuming that Egypt will break into conflict, the army will play a very different role than the Syrian Army does, seeing as it isn't alligned with the president in Egypt.


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## baconbits (Jul 5, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Oh its definitely a military coup.
> 
> But that term has a generally negative connotation (and from many a case, for good reason) which glosses over the complexity of the situation.



True.  It's funny how real world situations put you in positions like this.  You and I, supporters of freedom are supporting a military coup.  An Islamist wants democracy to prevail.  But that's why bumper-sticker thinking doesn't get you very far.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> ...Syria?
> 
> Do you guys even news?



Syria doesn't have the militarism ingrained into their society that Egypt does interestingly enough. Egypt's military are fucking heroes there, they fight Israel (kind of) and aren't a afraid of anything.


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## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Xyloxi said:


> Assuming that Egypt will break into conflict, the army will play a very different role than the Syrian Army does, seeing as it isn't alligned with the president in Egypt.


The military IS the president in Egypt.


baconbits said:


> True.  It's funny how real world situations put you in positions like this.  You and I, supporters of freedom are supporting a military coup.  An Islamist wants democracy to prevail.  But that's why bumper-sticker thinking doesn't get you very far.



Pssst. The Islamist is right, even if his motivations are poor.


----------



## KyuubiFan (Jul 5, 2013)

They way I see it, they chose Morsi a year ago to get rid of Mubarak and his system and fix the serious economical and unemployment problems. 

Turns out he's an even greater douchebag who not only tries to become a dictator under the pretense of democracy but also tries to turn the country into it's 5th century version with radical bullshit on top so now the people fed up with him doing nothing about the problems want to fix the problem and call the Army to help. The army is the good guy here.

The real questions are, who will be the next leader and how can the huge economical and social problems get fixed - preferably without further delays.


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

And people need to face it...much like Turkey the military is one of the biggest deciding factors of stay or go with politicians.


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## makeoutparadise (Jul 5, 2013)

Mob rule democracy 

Mobocracy if you will


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

baconbits said:


> True.  It's funny how real world situations put you in positions like this.  You and I, supporters of freedom are supporting a military coup.  An Islamist wants democracy to prevail.  But that's why bumper-sticker thinking doesn't get you very far.


Kinda. But its not too different from France and its multiple republics. If your first revolution fucks up, you keep trying until you get it right.

I mean the US you could consider technically being on its Third Republic. (First being Articles of Confederation, second being the constitutional state, third being post-Civil War)

The difference of course is Egypt's military being the one with the big dick to swing around, bloody revolutions are able to be short-circuited. I'm sure there are other examples in history of the military taking this role. Probably one of the Warsaw Pact states. idk. I don't really don't know the details offhand.


Also, @ Blue: The Islamist is wrong. He's seeing it through rose colored glasses. What everyone else sees as 'An authoritarian regime consolidating its power' he sees as democracy enacting what they were elected to do.

Except that wasn't why Morsi was elected. In the choice between a turd sandwich and a douche (see: South Park), they went with the turd sandwich. He ignored the will of the electorate and acted only in securing power for his regime. That's textbook autocrat.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Mael said:


> And people need to face it...much like Turkey the military is one of the biggest deciding factors of stay or go with politicians.


That used to be how it was. Though Edrogan's done himself a fine job of neutering Turkey's military.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 5, 2013)

And history has shown how bad it is having Islamists in power. They restrict the freedoms of everyone, including Muslims, ignore the crucial separation of Church and State (or throw it out all together), and in the end, are tyrants who want things back in the Middle Ages where Muslims ruled half the developed world.


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## baconbits (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> Pssst. The Islamist is right, even if his motivations are poor.



You're right.  His analysis of what is good for the country also seems poor, though.


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## Yachiru (Jul 5, 2013)

Can't we just kill these Islamists? They reproduce like roaches and then hunt down and kill anyone who even remotely opposes them.


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

baconbits said:


> You're right.  His analysis of what is good for the country also seems poor, though.



Ding!  Correct!  Sometimes relativism shows the truth in the face of blind principles, Blue.


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## Pliskin (Jul 5, 2013)

Mael said:


> Ding!  Correct!  Sometimes relativism shows the truth in the face of blind principles, Blue.



If you hold democracy to be an absolute principle that has to be uphold independent of circumstance, isn't that like the opposite of relativism?

Anyhow, news reports have it that MB leaders are getting arrested, soo... not looking like the miliitary wants democratic elections in the future. more like they wanna force a weak president and reign from the shadows, old Turkey style.


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Pliskin said:


> If you hold democracy to be an absolute principle that has to be uphold independent of circumstance, isn't that like the opposite of relativism?
> 
> Anyhow, news reports have it that MB leaders are getting arrested, soo... not looking like the miliitary wants democratic elections in the future. more like they wanna force a weak president and reign from the shadows, old Turkey style.



But I don't and I believe that there is always a chance to Mulligan if a good enough case can be argued.  In the case of Morsi, he was about to place into effect some VERY oppressive measures especially to the Christian community of Egypt to the point of overlooking violence.  You can't do that as easily in places like the UK or US, but here in Egypt there's no other way to look at it other than the people want a Mulligan.


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## Pliskin (Jul 5, 2013)

Mael said:


> But I don't and I believe that there is always a chance to Mulligan if a good enough case can be argued.  In the case of Morsi, he was about to place into effect some VERY oppressive measures especially to the Christian community of Egypt to the point of overlooking violence.  You can't do that as easily in places like the UK or US, but here in Egypt there's no other way to look at it other than the people want a Mulligan.



Believe me, I am not defending the guy.

I just think that enduring a soft (well, more like not batshit bloodthirsty ) autocrat for a period would have been the lesser evil compared to a military police state with the voting system reduced to a glorified "complaint box".

I might be proven wrong in the future though, just hope the Generals are not going for too big a power grab. OTOH, they are very concerned with keeping peace with their neighbors (a euphemism for te joos), so there is at least that ...


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

I dunno...I'm almost starting to think if Iraq was a lot more stable when Saddam was in charge as compared to now.

I've also come to terms with the realization that some places were meant to be controlled like that.


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## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

" *Egyptian army scumbag on BBC World Service saying army wanted to shut down all tunnels to Gaza but Morsi refused."*


I don't understand why Egypt would shoot at people who are likely going to come back with arms. This isn't Turkey, and these aren't Kemalists - although most of the protesters are peaceful and simply want democracy and legitimacy to be respected, there's a few, who if the Army pushes there buttons, can turn Egypt into Algeria. From someone who just returned from a protest;



> I've just returned from a demonstration here in Marsa Matruh -  al-hamdulillah - the mashayikh here that have been with Hizb Al-Noor  post-revolution, have realised that the official position was wrong -  they said that the Hizb oppressed the Ikhwan and now it seems that they  are taking a stand now. There will be a massive gathering tomorrow after  'asr and people from the whole of the state of Matruh from all the  tribes are coming inshaa'Allaah. BTW - for those that don't know - this  state is inhabited by Arab tribes and many are armed.
> 
> Al-hamdulillah people are standing up all over the country - it seems  that nobody is going to back down. I honestly can't see what the army  can do now. They can only back down or start a mass slaughter.




If the Military isn't careful and underestimates the opposition, then things are going to get really ugly. 

If they want to go by the will of the people, then today's protests completely eclipsed that of Sunday's, but they're not going to "implement the will of the people" now are they? Of course not, moment Mursi or any MB gets into power, the first thing they're going to do is try to completely disintegrate the Military thats held too much power for too long.


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

> Egyptian army scumbag on BBC World Service saying army wanted to shut down all tunnels to Gaza



Oh boo hoo because Hamas is a poor victim.

/crocodile tears


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## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

Mael said:


> Oh boo hoo because Hamas is a poor victim.
> 
> /crocodile tears




1. Tell me about it, why those "terrorists" would ever try defending their occupied land against oppression is truly beyond me.

2. Hamas aside, those tunnels were the only real lifeline for the Gazan civilians. The Israeli blockades are too tough and oppressive for them.


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> 1. Tell me about it, why those "terrorists" would ever try defending their occupied land against oppression is truly beyond me.
> 
> 2. Hamas aside, those tunnels were the only real lifeline for the Gazan civilians. The Israeli blockades are too tough and oppressive for them.



Bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit.

Protip: Don't elect a terrorist organization called Hamas as your government.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

> If the Military isn't careful and underestimates the opposition, then things are going to get really ugly.


And the Islamists will be blamed for being fucking insane (which they are) and acting like animals.

But oh I do hope MB continues being stupid and so the military has to exterminate them 

If they were smart, they'd accept that judgement, work within the current system and maybe be elected back into power in a decade. Instead they'll be completely marginalized in any future political system as power hungry extremists. They could have acted smartly. But then they wouldn't have been islamists in the first place.


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## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> acting like animals.



The double standards here are unbelievable


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> The double standards here are unbelievable



How so?  Morsi was going to enact an irreversible power grab.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> The double standards here are unbelievable


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## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Morsi undermines his own democratic government, people flip their shit
"legitimate protests"
Military destroys the democratic government completely and *arrests its members*, people flip their shit
"Acting like animals"


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## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

For anyone that has a heart, the Army shooting whilst people were peacefully praying (the Asr prayers), amongst who were women and children;

[youtube]2UJaGDAUM34[/youtube]

It's actually quite hard to watch. And around the 1.45 mark, they try to bravely walk back in. 

There are now 12 reported to be dead (most dying from bullet wounds by the Army), and many injured.



Sunuvmann said:


> And the Islamists will be blamed for being fucking insane (which they are) and acting like animals.




I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to blame Islamists if they decide to take up arms, especially after a coup - completely undermining any means of democracy, after 12 people were killed by the Army, hundreds injured and shots fired at people who were simply trying to pray.

I think, if that was you, you'd do the same shit. Typical, that you'd try to justify this disgust right till the end.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> Morsi undermines his own democratic government, people flip their shit
> "legitimate protests"
> Military destroys the democratic government completely and *arrests its members*, people flip their shit
> "Acting like animals"


The difference is the "legitimate protests" were largely peaceful. A few clashes on the fringes. iirc there were only like 3 deaths over the course of the event.

However these protests, not so much. Throwing rocks and fireworks. The goal is to try and incite violence and martyr themselves. Replace rocks with feces and you have acting like animals.

Oh and the democratic government part? Yeahhh it may have started that way. But it didn't last. That's kind of EXACTLY THE PROBLEM.

Oh and most of the arrests were temporary. Except for the ones who actually were doing shit on the street level.


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## Thor (Jul 5, 2013)

"After sunset, President Morsi will be back in the palace," they chanted. "The people want God's law. Islamic, Islamic, whether the army likes it or not."

This is their problem. No compromise. Their way or no way. They will put a stranglehold on power. they should feel the full weight of the military and see who outlasts who.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 5, 2013)

Pliskin said:


> Believe me, I am not defending the guy.
> 
> I just think that enduring a soft (well, more like not batshit bloodthirsty ) autocrat for a period would have been the lesser evil compared to a military police state with the voting system reduced to a glorified "complaint box".
> 
> I might be proven wrong in the future though, just hope the Generals are not going for too big a power grab. OTOH, they are very concerned with keeping peace with their neighbors (a euphemism for te joos), so there is at least that ...



We can expect about the same level of freedom from both a Morsi-led Egypt and a military-led egypt, but on every other count a military rule is clearly better for everyone involved.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Mudaari, why do you support Islamists so damn much? Can't you see how much they restrict basic civil liberties in an attempt to control everything and everyone?


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to blame Islamists if they decide to take up arms, especially after a coup - completely undermining any means of democracy, after 12 people were killed by the Army, hundreds injured and shots fired at people who were simply trying to pray.
> 
> I think, if that was you, you'd do the same shit. Typical, that you'd try to justify this disgust right till the end.


Oh of course they won't blame them. Their party leader got ousted. Of course they'd rage in butthurt. But it is entirely their fault.

Its only undermining if they stay in power. If anything they'd learn from the protests against the army rule last time and make the transition swift.

And again! It wasn't a democracy anymore! If it was a democracy they'd have accepted the petition for a new election and defended themselves via the ballet box and not by fucking with the constitution.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> The double standards here are unbelievable



Yep. **


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 5, 2013)

Blue said:


> Morsi undermines his own democratic government, people flip their shit
> "legitimate protests"
> Military destroys the democratic government completely and *arrests its members*, people flip their shit
> "Acting like animals"





Shinigami Perv said:


> The cognitive dissonance in this thread is comical and disturbing at the same time.



Just curious, if the people were ousting Morsi without the help of the military, would you still think it's wrong?


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## Shinigami Perv (Jul 5, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Just curious, if the people were ousting Morsi without the help of the military, would you still think it's wrong?



No. 

If they shut down the country like they did with Mubarak and forced him to step down, that's totally legitimate. It isn't so much Morsi leaving that disturbs me, it's the return to the old system: interim govt. run by the military and headed by a "senior jurist"- all of whom were Mubarak's men. It's troubling because the current govt is Mubarak without Mubarak.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 5, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> No.
> 
> If they shut down the country like they did with Mubarak and forced him to step down, that's totally legitimate. It isn't so much Morsi leaving that disturbs me, it's the return to the old system: interim govt. run by the military and headed by a "senior jurist"- all of whom were Mubarak's men. It's troubling because the current govt is Mubarak without Mubarak.


That's essentially what they did.

Except Morsi dug in and refused to step down and was readying his followers for counter protests which probably would have led to more violence.

So the military stepped in to try and force Morsi to meet the protester's demands or at least do a unity government or something like that.

And he dug in some more.

So he had to be removed before more people got hurt.


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## Al Mudaari (Jul 5, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Yep. **




+1 ............



Sunuvmann said:


> And again! It wasn't a democracy anymore!


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 5, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> No.
> 
> If they shut down the country like they did with Mubarak and forced him to step down, that's totally legitimate. It isn't so much Morsi leaving that disturbs me, it's the return to the old system: interim govt. run by the military and headed by a "senior jurist"- all of whom were Mubarak's men. It's troubling because the current govt is Mubarak without Mubarak.



And what do you think would have happened if the people had forced Morsi out? Do you think they would've had elections the next day and a new, working government? No, they would've had an interim government led by the only institution in the country with some semblance of order and organization, the military.

Also, the military can hardly stand by while the country goes into civil war mode over morsi. Unless the people had ousted and lynched morsi in a matter or days, the military would've had to take a side sooner or later. They opted for sooner and took the side of the people.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 5, 2013)

Each and every Egyptian president from now on will know that the military stands over him like the sword over Damocles. Imagine if right-wingers could march on DC and commit gun violence until Obama backs down from gun control, gay rights, etc (or is removed by the military)

In essence, no future president can now implement a policy that goes against military wishes. The first thing the next president must demand is the exile of all senior military leadership, and place it under civilian command. Otherwise the presidency is no more meaningful than the Roman senate was against the first triumvirate.


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Each and every Egyptian president from now on will know that the military stands over him like the sword over Damocles. Imagine if right-wingers could march on DC and commit gun violence until Obama backs down from gun control, gay rights, etc (or is removed by the military)
> 
> In essence, no future president can now implement a policy that goes against military wishes. The first thing the next president must demand is the exile of all senior military leadership, and place it under civilian command. Otherwise the presidency is no more meaningful than the Roman senate was against the first triumvirate.



Cool story, but I fail to see the effectiveness of a hypothetical using the US that has an entirely different system and culture.  The military used itself as a point of order in what could be seen as potentially stopping what could've been an even worse Islamist riot.  They did the right thing.  They sided with the people for the Mulligan when Morsi was clearly shown as a giant mistake and an accident waiting to happen.


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## Saufsoldat (Jul 5, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Each and every Egyptian president from now on will know that the military stands over him like the sword over Damocles. Imagine if right-wingers could march on DC and commit gun violence until Obama backs down from gun control, gay rights, etc (or is removed by the military)
> 
> In essence, no future president can now implement a policy that goes against military wishes. The first thing the next president must demand is the exile of all senior military leadership, and place it under civilian command. Otherwise the presidency is no more meaningful than the Roman senate was against the first triumvirate.



Bullshit. It's not like the military just decided one day out of the blue that they've had it with morsi's bullshit and wanna stage a little coup. *The people* wanted morsi to go, the military merely helped along the process. 

If the people had been happy with morsi's rule, do you think the military would've still done this? Hell no. They didn't like morsi, but they were content with putting up with him as long as he has the mandate of the people.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jul 5, 2013)

Bullshit? Lol

If Bush had been removed by the military, whose lapdog would Obama currently be? Obvious answer: the military's. 

Dress it up any way you want, this is a textbook military coup. Blue had it nailed. 

If the people want him to go, the military should have set up an election rather than staging a coup. Even if it was outside the constitution, it still would have had more legitimacy than this. If they set up a real election, where anyone can run, they can rescue this situation and keep some semblance of democracy. If they start holding sham elections where political parties are banned, it's over.

Mob rule and military coups are not congruent with democracy.


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Bullshit? Lol
> 
> If Bush had been removed by the military, whose lapdog would Obama currently be? Obvious answer: the military's.
> 
> ...



Sometimes to make an omelet you have to break a couple eggs.

And two other things:

1. You're asking the military to do a civilian operation.   Historically that hadn't fared so well.
2. It's ironic when you say this as you're head over heels with a nation that's stubbornly one party.


----------



## Blue (Jul 5, 2013)

Mael said:


> 1. You're asking the military to do a civilian operation.



No I'm not lol


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 5, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Bullshit. It's not like the military just decided one day out of the blue that they've had it with morsi's bullshit and wanna stage a little coup. *The people* wanted morsi to go, the military merely helped along the process.
> 
> If the people had been happy with morsi's rule, do you think the military would've still done this? Hell no. They didn't like morsi, but they were content with putting up with him as long as he has the mandate of the people.



The people = 50 something million.

Protests = 10,000 people at best.

Election turn out 13 million people voted for him. I frankly don't care if he's a Muslim or an incompetent toad, he was elected and unlawfully removed. No democratically elected president should be subjected to crap from mere tools that is the military. It's nothing less than treason to overthrow a man millions elected.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jul 5, 2013)

Mael said:


> 1. You're asking the military to do a civilian operation. Historically that hadn't fared so well.



They did this 18 months ago.  No one said they have to run the fucking voting booths. 



> 2. It's ironic when you say this as you're head over heels with a nation that's stubbornly one party.



Just because I don't freak out and check under my bed at the mere mention of China, please don't say I'm "head over heels" for their party. If the economy of Egypt had been growing like China, Mubarak would sit comfortable as a pharaoh to this day. Regardless, there isn't a single "sinophile" who thinks China shouldn't democratize. 

How many times have you harped about democracy in China threads, but suddenly Egypt's military takes over and we get egg cracking analogies.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 5, 2013)

Why the hell didn't the parliament or courts do something about it?? They should've led everything supported by the citizens(not outsiders).

Again, it's unthinkable that protests and riots in the UK would lead to overthrowing the Government... guess we should've done it the second Cams said there wouldn't be any EU referendum! 

Good job Rebels. These kids know what they're doing. :derp


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## Mael (Jul 5, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> The people = 50 something million.
> 
> Protests = 10,000 people at best.
> 
> Election turn out 13 million people voted for him. I frankly don't care if he's a Muslim or an incompetent toad, he was elected and unlawfully removed. *No democratically elected president should be subjected to crap from mere tools that is the military. It's nothing less than treason to overthrow a man millions elected.*



In principle, yes.

In reality, whatever.  The man was future bad news.

And Shini, for the umpteenth time, I am a relativist.  Different places, different situations, different opinions.  Only a few exceptions exist.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 5, 2013)

Mael said:


> In principle, yes.
> 
> In reality, whatever.  The man was future bad news.
> 
> And Shini, for the umpteenth time, I am a relativist.  Different places, different situations, different opinions.  Only a few exceptions exist.



Neither of us wanted him in office. Regardless Egypt is a Muslim country, from the political elites to the lowest classes. Therefore there's no guarantee that so-called moderates will always be moderate. The man who's in charge now was a judge appointed by Mubarak. So the country is pretty much back to square one. *The only thing that has remained consistent is Islam: he's Muslim*. And how much do we know about this guy? If he was a judge under Mubarak, then chances are he'll be just as corrupt. Muslim + Corruption = Bad government.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 5, 2013)

22 people killed in Egypt on Friday (17 protesters from both sides, 5 soldiers/police by various Islamists). Dis gunna get worse before it gets better.


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## navy (Jul 5, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> Corruption = Bad government.


The muslim part is slightly racist...or religionist. Whatever it's called these days.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 6, 2013)

A good read here.

In short.

The majority did not vote for Morsi (Most hated both candidates)



> You also go on and claim that ‘we’ (this monstrous hybrid of all the worst of Egypt that you’ve assembled) chose to play the game, but are now complaining about results. You’re ignoring (unless you are simply ignorant of) the millions of people who effectively boycotted the elections whether by conscious political design, or because they had already given up on the SCAF coordinated game show, or because they simply rejected the notion that ‘free democratic elections’ could be held under SCAF.



There were voting irregularities all over the country



> The elections were a sham, and the Carter observers said as much, if you paid any kind of attention whatsoever. Carter himself even said that given the restrictions imposed on their monitoring efforts, he should never have agreed to be involved in those elections.
> 
> Voting booths were empty, turnout on the first day, depending on the governerate, was estimated at between 3% to 15%. Magically, the next day, we were told that 26 million invisible voters had voted. Exciting. You comfortably ignore over 3,000 complaints from polling stations, reports of National ID printing machines gone stolen, and an electoral registry that has been estimated to have about 9 million ‘paper’ voters in it.



ok granted this is a personal blog but he does make good points.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 6, 2013)

Mohammed ElBaradei has been named Prime Minister. The MB's biggest dissident.

I lol'd, they're really gonna get butthurt over this one. ElBaradei is an asshole though so I eagerly await his overthrow in a year.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 6, 2013)

navy said:


> The muslim part is slightly racist...or religionist. Whatever it's called these days.



I have almost nothing to build on a good Muslim leader schema. Every Muslim leader we've heard about has been greedy, corrupt, or possessed other bad leadership and human qualities.

You don't like facts?


----------



## navy (Jul 6, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> I have almost nothing to build on a good Muslim leader schema. Every Muslim leader we've heard about has been greedy, corrupt, or possessed other bad leadership and human qualities.
> 
> You don't like facts?



Every Muslim leader is not like that. I cant believe we are even discussing this.

And you clearly have no understanding of the word fact.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 6, 2013)

navy said:


> Every Muslim leader is not like that. I cant believe we are even discussing this.
> 
> And you clearly have no understanding of the word fact.



 Refresh my mind. Tell us all about the amazingly good Muslim leaders that the internationals and nationals actually like. 

If not, my perception about Muslim leaders will not change.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 6, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> Refresh my mind. Tell us all about the amazingly good Muslim leaders that the internationals and nationals actually like.
> 
> If not, my perception about Muslim leaders will not change.




Great to hear, the moment a bigot as yourself likes someone, then something would be terribly wrong.



Megaharrison said:


> Mohammed ElBaradei has been named Prime Minister. The MB's biggest dissident.
> 
> I lol'd, they're really gonna get butthurt over this one. ElBaradei is an asshole though so I eagerly await his overthrow in a year.




Keep loling 

Though, I would prefer if he had got PM, would've increased sympathy for Mursi imo and he would've just got overthrown.


----------



## lacey (Jul 6, 2013)

I can't help but feel that Egypt is going to go on an overthrow spree for at least the next few years.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 7, 2013)

Well if they got a leader that

A) Realised that religion should stay the fuck out of national laws and regulations no matter if 99.9% of the nation wanted it. (Yes even the vatican should shut up shop and just become part of Italy again)

B) Forget about Israel and work on Education, Social change for equality for all regardless of Gender, sexuality etc.

c) Work on building the economy and infrastructure and not be in power to hold onto power.

They might have a leader who won't get overthrown


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 7, 2013)

^Shush, Al Mudaari doesn't like the progressive world view and would pretty much prefer Islamists in power.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 7, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> The people = 50 something million.
> 
> Protests = 10,000 people at best.
> 
> Election turn out 13 million people voted for him. I frankly don't care if he's a Muslim or an incompetent toad, he was elected and unlawfully removed. No democratically elected president should be subjected to crap from mere tools that is the military. It's nothing less than treason to overthrow a man millions elected.



You make a valid point, if democracy is always seen as a good thing and military coups were always seen as negative.  But we ought not look at this in absolute terms.

So let us grant you that this is not a democratic act, Morsi legally should still be in power and the people have no real right to complain since he was legally elected.  I counter with the fact that Morsi was seizing power unlawfully, he was bad for almost the entire region and world and the people seemed to hate him.  Thus I support his overthrow.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 7, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Great to hear, the moment a bigot as yourself likes someone, then something would be terribly wrong.



Why don't you name one single good Muslim leader instead of avoiding the question with personal attacks that mean nothing. I don't really care if you think I'm a bigot. Nevertheless, if you can't show me any proof of a good Muslim leader, then I'm right and you're wrong about everything. You're such a biased little strap-on wanker!


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 7, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> B) Forget about Israel and work on Education, Social change for equality for all regardless of Gender, sexuality etc.
> n



Unfortunately for Egypt he still succumbs to the old Gypo obsession and has called for war against Israel:



Course even if he's serious he'll be rotting in a jail cell long before anyone can start with those shenanigans.


----------



## Xyloxi (Jul 7, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> Why don't you name one single good Muslim leader instead of avoiding the question with personal attacks that mean nothing. I don't really care if you think I'm a bigot. Nevertheless, if you can't show me any proof of a good Muslim leader, then I'm right and you're wrong about everything. You're such a biased little strap-on wanker!



Najib Razak of Malaysia doesn't seem to be an utter gobshite, compared to the dictators of the Middle East, the post-Soviet hell holes of Central Asia and the lulzy levels of fail of South Asia. The guy isn't the greatest fan of Israel, but then again you're unlikely to get a Muslim leader who is going to cuddle up to Israel, but Malaysia being so geographically removed from Israel it isn't a big issue for them. 

He's democratically elected and driven to vastly increase Malaysia's GNP, although a bit neo-liberal for my liking. Will that do for a good Muslim leader?


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 7, 2013)

baconbits said:


> You make a valid point, if democracy is always seen as a good thing and military coups were always seen as negative.  But we ought not look at this in absolute terms.
> 
> So let us grant you that this is not a democratic act, Morsi legally should still be in power and the people have no real right to complain since he was legally elected.  *I counter with the fact that Morsi was seizing power unlawfully, he was bad for almost the entire region* and world and the people seemed to hate him.  Thus I support his overthrow.



This isn't quite true.

 How has Morsi seized power unlawfully? For starters, he was elected. He has used executive privileges to make his administration less transparent. You know.... like most modern governments. Now, if it were true that what he did was unacceptable, why didn't the courts or the parliament impeach him? Perhaps the Morsi administration made the case that it was necessary for national security and for a messed up country fresh out of revolution. 

This new revolution was more or less led by a bunch of teenagers if the news is right about Rebel, a youth movement, who were whining about what they perceived to be bad governance, and then the army carried out their wishes. The will of the people it may be, but so too was the election result that put Morsi in power. Only difference I see is that one was a result of an election, the other was a military coup to appease the loudest, angry mouths in the streets; moreover, they are a minority. What's worse is they faked about 22 million signatures.  They're totally less corrupt than Morsi. 

The West has absolutely no problem doing business with the UAE, Saudi Arabia and other countries, where the governments are explicitly Muslim. They don't care if a monkey is president so long as it's in their national interests: stability and business and ultimately peace.

How was he bad for the entire region?  Has he pissed off the other governments? Has he threatened anyone? Refused to do business?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 7, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> This new revolution was more or less led by a bunch of teenagers if the news is right about Rebel, a youth movement, who were whining about what they perceived to be bad governance, and then the army carried out their wishes. The will of the people it may be, but so too was the election result that put Morsi in power. Only difference I see is that one was a result of an election, the other was a military coup to appease the loudest, angry mouths in the streets; moreover, they are a minority. What's worse is they faked about 22 million signatures.  They're totally less corrupt than Morsi.



Umm, you realize that 50% of the Egyptian populace is teenagers and below, right? And what evidence do you have that the signatures were fake? There were literally millions in the streets protesting Morsi, so why is the fact that they gathered 22 million signatures so hard to accept?


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 7, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Umm, you realize that 50% of the Egyptian populace is teenagers and below, right? And what evidence do you have that the signatures were fake? There were literally millions in the streets protesting Morsi, so why is the fact that they gathered 22 million signatures so hard to accept?



You're telling me petitions which was always designed to be BIASED and set up by a child-group, who clearly want Morsi out, has any credibility? Wow... what a country!  Ruled by 13 year olds. :amazed


----------



## lacey (Jul 7, 2013)

Anyone younger than 18 would be a teenager. So no, not 13 year olds.

And you'd be surprised how important the young can be.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 7, 2013)

♥ Comatose ♥ said:


> Anyone younger than 18 would be a teenager. So no, not 13 year olds.
> 
> And you'd be surprised how important the young can be.



I never said the young aren't important, but they are also not in the zone to dictate the direction the country heads towards. They're too naive; they lack the education and wisdom that comes with experience. They are leaders of the future, not the present. I won't take anyone under 35 seriously in politics. 

Besides, what Morsi was doing didn't directly cause an effect on their lives. It was more an issue for the parliament and courts, and they should've managed it.



> *According to Wikipedia*:
> Mohamed Morsi earned a bachelor's and master's degree in engineering from Cairo University in 1975 and 1978, respectively. He was granted a scholarship to prepare for a PhD degree in the United States; then earned his Ph.D. in materials science from the University of Southern California in the U.S. in 1982 with his dissertation High-Temperature Electrical Conductivity and Defect Structure of Donor-Doped Al2O3. He was an Assistant Professor at California State University, Northridge, from 1982 to 1985. In 1985, he returned to Egypt and began to serve as the head of the engineering department at Zagazig University, where he was a professor until 2010.
> 
> The National University of Sciences and Technology, Pakistan (NUST) conferred the honorary degree of Doctor of Philosophy on Morsi at a special convocation, held at the School of Civil & Environmental Engineering NUST in Islamabad on 18 March 2013. The degree was awarded in recognition of his achievements and significant contribution toward the promotion of peace and harmony in the world and for strengthening bilateral relations with other Muslim countries, especially Pakistan.[21] Prime Minister Raja Pervez Ashraf, as Chancellor of the University, conferred the degree on the Egyptian President together with the Rector of NUST, Muhammad Asghar..



Do the kids truly believe they can match him in a real contest of intelligence and education? 



> According to Wikipedia:
> Morsi was a Member of Parliament in the People's Assembly of Egypt from 2000 to 2005, and a leading member in the Muslim Brotherhood. He became Chairman of the Freedom and Justice Party (FJP) when it was founded by the Muslim Brotherhood in the wake of the 2011 Egyptian revolution. He stood as the FJP's candidate for the May–June 2012 presidential election.



Do 13-19 years truly believe they have the experience to challenge Morsi in real world politics? 

Most of them were still wearing nappies when Morsi became a politician, which means he truly understood the complexities of politics many many years before that. Those kids still don't understand how the word works, yet they think they can tell the President how to run the country?  

Now, I am a bit of a Rebel myself as I enjoy expressing my opinions, sometimes controversial and paradoxical opinions regardless what positions governments adopt, mostly due to the fact I am still fucking learning about the world, making mistakes, and changing myself and because I think it's kinda fun to be a bit different. :amazed But I never pretend I know better than politicians and people who are clearly smarter and more experienced than me; in the end, I would still follow their leadership because THEY ARE THE FUCKING LEADERS NOT ME YOU ASSHOLES. And I'm a bit older than 19. :amazed


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 7, 2013)

> *Mohammed Morsi Shakes Islamists In The Region *
> 
> CAIRO -- The military's overthrow of Mohammed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood's fall from power in Egypt have sent Islamist parties around the region scrambling to preserve gains made in the Middle East and North Africa as a result of the Arab Spring uprisings.
> 
> ...




Good news for pretty much everyone who isn't Al Maduuri and for the middle east in general


----------



## Mael (Jul 7, 2013)

> shows Islamism has a lot to learn when it comes to ruling



Yes, by never running at all and letting progress over religiosity for once take control.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 7, 2013)

Islamist parties could stand to learn from the west's Christianist (read: conservative) parties: Do try and keep a lid on your crazy. Oh and cloak your impulse for authoritarianism by wrapping yourself in the flag.


----------



## Sarry (Jul 7, 2013)

Mael said:


> Yes, by never running at all and letting progress over religiosity for once take control.



I don't think they are that considerate for others that they will allow progress to continue. 
Not if they want to live by 7th century obsolete standards.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 8, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Good news for pretty much everyone who isn't Al *Maduuri* and for the middle east in general



 I like how you call him Maduuri. Also, unless there's real shift in religion in the middle east, there'll always be Muslims in power. This is the main point you keep overlooking. The Muslim Brotherhood is Muslim, of course, but so is the interim president and most likely any new permanent president. What they need is someone who has no religion and who genuinely wants democracy to succeed.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 8, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> I never said the young aren't important, but they are also not in the zone to dictate the direction the country heads towards. They're too naive; they lack the education and wisdom that comes with experience. They are leaders of the future, not the present. I won't take anyone under 35 seriously in politics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which makes me wonder:

[YOUTUBE]5jgVtQTOO74[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 8, 2013)

kandaron said:


> Which makes me wonder:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]5jgVtQTOO74[/YOUTUBE]



Are you telling me his degree has nothing to do with English?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> I like how you call him Maduuri. Also, unless there's real shift in religion in the middle east, there'll always be Muslims in power. This is the main point you keep overlooking. The Muslim Brotherhood is Muslim, of course, but so is the interim president and most likely any new permanent president. What they need is someone who has no religion and who genuinely wants democracy to succeed.


And just like how almost all Western politicians are Christian.

But again it comes to how the left generally wants a secular state whereas the right wants a theocracy.


I think it'll be probably 50 years before there's an out atheist in the White House. At least a century before an atheist presides over a middle eastern country.

I really wish someone did subs of Basam Yousef's show


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 8, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> You're telling me petitions which was always designed to be BIASED and set up by a child-group, who clearly want Morsi out, has any credibility? Wow... what a country!  Ruled by 13 year olds. :amazed



Evidence of all this.

Also Morsi was getting more and more dictator like as the year progressed and the people wanted him out as he is getting oppressive.  Hell doesn't the US have the entire 2nd amendment to deal with all this.

Democracy =/= elections and if you loss deal with it the leader can do what he wants you know.  Morsi was a shit leader and focused on gaining a power base and become another dictator so the people wanted him removed and the army made it so.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 8, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> Are you telling me his degree has nothing to do with English?


No, I'm asking how the fuck was he granted scholarship, earn PhD, and serve as assistant professor in the US with that shitty English; this is an honest question not a rhetorical one.

Either he forgot almost everything he learned about English, or i'm missing something and all that shit doesn't require English.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 8, 2013)

kandaron said:


> No, I'm asking how the fuck was he granted scholarship, earn PhD, and serve as assistant professor in the US with that shitty English; this is an honest question not a rhetorical one.
> 
> Either he forgot almost everything he learned about English, or i'm missing something and all that shit doesn't require English.



It's not uncommon for people to have shitty English and yet have the intelligence, skill and knowledge about their field. Engineering is distinctly not English... as far as I'm aware. I don't know what he did as an assistant professor, although I imagine that his knowledge of the sciences wasn't bad.



Nemesis said:


> Evidence of all this.



You provided the evidence: "50% of Egyptians are teenagers". I took your word for it; I'd have to ask you to provide the source to support my claims.



> Also Morsi was getting more and more dictator like as the year progressed and the people wanted him out as he is getting oppressive.  Hell doesn't the US have the entire 2nd amendment to deal with all this.



Americans never use the 2nd amendment to overthrow the government and to be honest, it's not possible. The government is too clever for the vast majority of Americans to do anything more than bitch about it.



> Democracy =/= elections



Wrong, democracy = elections. What warped reality are you living in?



> and if you loss deal with it the leader can do what he wants you know.  Morsi was a shit leader and focused on gaining a power base and become another dictator so the people wanted him removed and the army made it so.



I'm not disagreeing with people about the fact that Morsi was slowly becoming a dictator;  just the fact that he wasn't yet actually a dictator nor even oppressive. You have to be absolutely sure before you act to overthrow a democratically elected government. The right way to do is get the parliament and courts to deal with it. I really wouldn't have a problem if they did because it would be democratic. 

And stop with this shit argument about the will of the people. 1% of the population =/= the people. If 50,000 people wanted a law or an amendment to a law in America, would it justify revolution? Look at the political landscape in America, it's dominated by Republicans and Democrats, not one single party. In other words, people in America differ on what the country should do about everything, hence the need for democracy. Look at the political landscape of Egypt: they have Liberals and Islamists, hence the need for two major parties. There is no overwhelming majority against Morsi.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 8, 2013)

♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> It's not uncommon for people to have shitty English and yet have the intelligence, skill and knowledge about their field. Engineering is distinctly not English... as far as I'm aware.


That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't answer my question.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 8, 2013)

kandaron said:


> That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't answer my question.



Think more then, because I don't the time to simplify things for you. I'm not running GCSE Bitezise here.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 8, 2013)

If my question was about the relation between English and "intelligence, skill and knowledge about their field", your answer would have been relevant, but, alas, my question was more about the relation between English, and getting PhD and serving as an assistance professor at a university in the US.

Looks like I am the one who had to simplify things for you.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 8, 2013)

Egyptian Army massacred a bunch of Mursi/pro-democracy Supporters, about 34+ (some reports 44) claimed dead, amongst them 5 children. 

Get live updates here;


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Jazeera, a pro-Islamic Newspaper and a blog too as your source? Even after learning that Islamists _around northern Africa and even the Middle East_ are seen in an immense negative light now?

And here's the thing Al Mudaari: Islamic Morsi Supporters _do not_ support Democracy. To them, its a tool they use to get their unpopular views in the limelight so they can take control, then limit the right of everyone else, THEN start persecuting Christians and anyone non-Muslim, and make rights worse for women in the country.

And guess what: alleged actions can be MADE UP. And the Muslim Brotherhood, the most unpopular party in Egypt at the moment has a LOT of motive to make up a massacre for the press so they can gain some sympathy.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Al Jazeera, a pro-Islamic Newspaper and a blog too as your source? Even after learning that Islamists _around northern Africa and even the Middle East_ are seen in an immense negative light now?




Absolute dumbass, that's an AJ Egyptian live updates blog. 

And there's nothing "pro-islam" about them, AJ are considered the most popular and reliable news outlet for the ME, both in the ME and *in the west.*



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And here's the thing Al Mudaari: Islamic Morsi Supporters _do not_ support Democracy. To them, its a tool they use to get their unpopular views in the limelight so they can take control, then limit the right of everyone else, THEN start persecuting Christians and anyone non-Muslim, and make rights worse for women in the country.




Typical Islamophopbe. The Protesters are a mix of both MB supporters and Pro-Democracy supporters who saw military intervention as a coup.

And nice of you to bring Christian/Non Muslims into it, as if everything must have something to do with religion. You're obsessed due to your hate.

The great irony of your support is, that if you go to Tahrir Square (where Anti-Mursi supporters are), as an American you would get ripped apart from the hate they're spewing at the USA. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And guess what: alleged actions can be MADE UP. And the Muslim Brotherhood, *the most unpopular party in Egypt* at the moment has a LOT of motive to make up a massacre for the press so they can gain some sympathy.




lmao, you keep believing that @bold.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> at the moment has a LOT of motive to make up a massacre for the press so they can gain some sympathy.




What a sick person you are. I'd post the images but they're too graphic for this forum (and I'm not sure what the rules say about that).

But, glad to know you condone the killing of innocents, especially children (one of them was an infant 6 month year old).


----------



## Xyloxi (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Egyptian Army massacred a bunch of Mursi/pro-democracy Supporters, about 34+ (some reports 44) claimed dead, amongst them 5 children.
> 
> Get live updates here;



Supporting someone who basically wanted to turn themselves into a theocratic dictator is not what pro-democracy means. Anybody can call themselves a democracy, but Islamists and real, liberal democracy go together like water and oil.


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 8, 2013)

Xyloxi said:


> Supporting someone who basically wanted to turn themselves into a theocratic dictator is not what pro-democracy means. Anybody can call themselves a democracy, but Islamists and real, liberal democracy go together like water and oil.




1. Please provide evidence that he was wanted to turn into a  "theocratic dictator". Trying to give yourself slightly more power, in order to make changes (even those powers were not enough to do anything significant) against the Old Mubarak regime does not equate to - "theocratic" and "dictator", especially when the next election was due to be held.

2. Please provide evidence that the next elections were dismantled, as any "dictator" would do.

Pro-democracy means that you choose a leader that's been elected by the majority in a vote. Mursi, no doubt was just that, even the pro-Mursi protests eclipsed what was seen on June 30th (when he was toppled thanks to the Military coup). 

In another vote, he'd win again, probably with a greater margin now that the second most popular party (the Salafi nour party) supporters have abandoned them.


----------



## Xyloxi (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> 1. Please provide evidence that he was wanted to turn into a  "theocratic dictator"
> 
> 2. Please provide evidence that the next elections were dismantled, as any "dictator" would do.
> 
> ...








Evidence showing him to be authoritarian with the repressing of minorities as seen in the new constitution. 

I don't have evidence of him dismantling elections, but as a politician with an ideology and policies not based around liberal democracy, it seems dubious that he won't make himself into a dictator.  As obviously every democratically elected leader has always remained democratic, right?

A leader who oppresses minorities with a democratic mandate is not pro-democracy, that's called mob rule. The principles of democracy shouldn't suddenly disappear after an election, any ideology based on a convert religion is not going to have democratic values at its core, unless they seriously tone the religious nature of their policies down e.g. Germanic Christian Democratic parties.  

The problem with Egyptian non-Islamists is that they aren't truly united ideologically, whereas the Islamists are.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 8, 2013)

kandaron said:


> If my question was about the relation between English and "intelligence, skill and knowledge about their field", your answer would have been relevant, but, alas, my question was more about the relation between English, and getting PhD and serving as an assistance professor at a university in the US.
> 
> Looks like I am the one who had to simplify things for you.



I guess you didn't know that engineering =/= english.


----------



## Sarry (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> *Egyptian Army massacred a bunch of Mursi/pro-democracy Supporters, about 34+ (some reports 44) claimed dead, amongst them 5 children.
> *
> Get live updates here;


Reports from BBC say those pro-morsi supporters were storming an army barracks; they shot  and attempted to stab the soldiers there and threw molotovs. 

It wasn't a massacre. Nowhere close to it. 

Source


----------



## Mael (Jul 8, 2013)

Soldiers are obviously NOT entitled to self-defense unless in the name of Allah, Sarry.


----------



## Blue (Jul 8, 2013)

Un-fucking-believable, where were you people the 57 times there were threads about Israelis or Americans... or _Egyptians_ defending themselves against violent protestors?

I had fucking Freedan up in this bitch telling me that using tear gas was brutal and inhumane and I had to solo him, and these guys get hosed down like a fire and we're all "ahmuhgawd the soldiers were defending themselves"

Cafe, _please_


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> Un-fucking-believable, where were you people the 57 times there were threads about Israelis or Americans... or _Egyptians_ defending themselves against violent protestors?
> 
> I had fucking Freedan up in this bitch telling me that using tear gas was brutal and inhumane and I had to solo him, and these guys get hosed down like a fire and we're all "ahmuhgawd the soldiers were defending themselves"
> 
> Cafe, _please_


/tries to think back to times when any of the 3 had to defend against violent protestors

/only example coming to mind is American ones

Yeahhh, I don't remember any American police officer being killed by a violent protestor in recent years.

Also islamists inciting and escalating things further, etc.


----------



## Blue (Jul 8, 2013)

Benghazi for the first week was all "Ambassador killed by violent protesters"

I was like "why didn't the guards get out the machine guns?"
Cue huge indignation from Jello et. al

We get a Son Goku thread every time an Israeli shoots and does not kill a Palestinian who was throwing rocks at his face

Turkey uses tear gas, one person dies when a canister malfunctions and explodes, we get a discussion about the inhumanity of tear gas

Occupy Oakland burns down the port, some ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) gets a tear gas canister to the skull and ends up in the hospital, threads about that

It's a consistent pattern

Until now.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

Yeah well context.

Here its the ousted regime trying to do the counter revolution thing.


----------



## Blue (Jul 8, 2013)

Anyway, here's a non Al-Jazeera source (not that Al-Jazeera isn't credible; it is) about the 51 dead and 200 injured.



If I was Egyptian I'd be leaving asap. Shit is about to get Syria-level real.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jul 8, 2013)

> Turkey uses tear gas, one person dies when a canister malfunctions and explodes, we get a discussion about the inhumanity of tear gas



Every person who died in the protests was due to bullet wounds, not tear gas. Though, how the police used teargas is completely different matter...


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 8, 2013)

Well, after a dozen or so dead (or like 60+, depending on which side is telling the story) I think we can reasonably bury the chances of this going down peacefully with just new elections.

The arrest warrants on the MB don't help either. Though I have to say I am with Blue here: defending shooting the crowd, really? I think people are letting their dislike (of admittedly scumbag extremists)  cloud their judgement, if this was in any other place of the world you would have people demonstrating in front of embassies, freedom flotillas and what have you. 

Putting an outspoken Mursi enemy in charge (well more like puppet figure) did not help puting the fire out.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 8, 2013)

Yeah, these shootings are not doing anything to ease my worries about this coup. :X

Also people are claiming al Jazeera isn't credible? Fuck outta here.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 8, 2013)

Palestinian Jihadists have invaded the Sinai from Gaza and have been involved in assaults on Egyptian army positions


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

AJ definitely has a bit of a pro-islamist slant.

But its kinda like on a scale of 0-10 with 0 being totally pro-secular, 10 being totally pro-islamist and 5 being true neutral, they're about a 6-6.5

However when it has come to middle east news general, they're pretty spot on.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Palestinian Jihadists have invaded the Sinai from Gaza and have been involved in assaults on Egyptian army positions


Neat.

Hopefully between them and Syria they can gather up all the jihadis of the middle east and that pest can be exterminated.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 8, 2013)

> Adly Mansour also said he had ordered an investigation into the deaths.
> 
> The Muslim Brotherhood says its members were fired on as they staged a sit-in for ousted President Mohammad Morsi, while the army said it had responded to an armed provocation.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23230221

The whole situation is getting exciting.



♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> I guess you didn't know that engineering =/= english.


Nah, you can't be that stupid, you are either a troll or a masochist.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 8, 2013)

kandaron said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23230221
> 
> The whole situation is getting exciting.
> 
> Nah, you can't be that stupid, you are either a troll or a masochist.



I don't understand, are you in a vegatative state or what? What part of English =/= Engineering don't you understand?

As for how a US university allowed him to be an assistant professor is something you have to ask them unless you were being rhetorical... and you told me you weren't.


----------



## kandaron (Jul 8, 2013)

Okay, I'll assume you're serious for a second.





♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> I don't understand, are you in a vegatative state or what? What part of English =/= Engineering don't you understand?


When did I ever say or even imply that English = Engineering? Go ahead read my posts again.

You seem to assume i'm doubting his knowledge or skills regarding his specialization, but that's not what I said, not even remotely.

What i'm saying is: How did he get PhD *In the US* (see the bolded part?) with bad English?



♚Sōsuke Aizen♚ said:


> As for how a US university allowed him to be an assistant professor is something you have to ask them unless you were being rhetorical... and you told me you weren't.


Simply saying "I don't know" or not responding would have been sufficient.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Absolute dumbass, that's an AJ Egyptian live updates blog.
> 
> And there's nothing "pro-islam" about them, AJ are considered the most popular and reliable news outlet for the ME, both in the ME and *in the west.*


AJ is a source which is rarely used here due to its pro-Islamic stance, why not use Reuters? Or something that isn't biased?





> Typical Islamophopbe. The Protesters are a mix of both MB supporters and Pro-Democracy supporters who saw military intervention as a coup.
> 
> And nice of you to bring Christian/Non Muslims into it, as if everything must have something to do with religion. You're obsessed due to your hate.
> 
> The great irony of your support is, that if you go to Tahrir Square (where Anti-Mursi supporters are), as an American you would get ripped apart from the hate they're spewing at the USA.


I'm not an Islamaphobe. I'm anti-Islamist. I'm anti-Theocracy. Islamists have ruined the Middle East and Central Asia for so long, turning their people into sheep so they can blame the West for anything.

And are you ignoring the increase of violence against Christians and non-Muslims in Egypt under Morsi's control? The fact we had an exodus of both when their rights and very lives were infringed? No? 



> lmao, you keep believing that @bold.


13 Million people (allegedly) voted for Morsi. 22 Million people signed a petition and wanted him out. The Muslim Brotherhood isn't popular, its extremely unpopular in Egypt.





> What a sick person you are. I'd post the images but they're too graphic for this forum (and I'm not sure what the rules say about that).
> 
> But, glad to know you condone the killing of innocents, especially children (one of them was an infant 6 month year old).


I'm waiting for PROOF from something OTHER than a mouthpiece from the Muslim Brotherhood. Hell, even the article YOU CITED says it was only Muslim Brotherhood who said it. Not only that, later articles are showing that the 'protestors' attacked first.


----------



## WT (Jul 8, 2013)

White Tiger said:
			
		

> In before after desensitized internet warriors casually posting their garbage while sitting in front of the telly with their fatass bellys out.



Guess I have to pull this previous quote of mine out. Appropriate in this situation.


----------



## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

HEY
my belly isn't fat


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm trying to do sit ups my abbs are just not comming in yet


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 8, 2013)

White Tiger said:


> Guess I have to pull this previous quote of mine out. Appropriate in this situation.



U mad that your islamofascist friend got ousted?


----------



## Blue (Jul 8, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> AJ definitely has a bit of a pro-islamist slant.
> 
> But its kinda like on a scale of 0-10 with 0 being totally pro-secular, 10 being totally pro-islamist and 5 being true neutral, they're about a 6-6.5
> 
> However when it has come to middle east news general, they're pretty spot on.



And Fox has a pro-conservative slant and MSNBC has a pro-liberal stance but none of the above publish lies.

except MSNBC, rarely


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

except Fox, all the fucking time

Yeah, BBC and NPR is pretty much the only news source I've seen without any real slant. I like watching the BBC America broadcast at 5:30 on PBS. But alas, the second 15 minutes or so is usually spent with fluff bits about some woman doing something nice in a third world country or whatever.

I really, really don't care about the going ons of peon states in the global affairs arena.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 8, 2013)

The road to civil war in Egypt seems to be  up ahead let's hope the pullover and figure stuff out


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

I really think the current president should really do a Truth and Reconciliation Committee. Or something of the sort.

Follow Southrica's model.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Jul 8, 2013)

makeoutparadise said:


> The road to civil war in Egypt seems to be  up ahead let's hope the pullover and figure stuff out



We definitely won't see a civil war on the scale of Syria in Egypt unless the military does some ridiculous stuff that alienates people who aren't crazy islamists.


----------



## Blue (Jul 8, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> We definitely won't see a civil war on the scale of Syria in Egypt unless the military does some ridiculous stuff that alienates people who aren't crazy islamists.



You mean like empty their clips into a crowd of people...?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

I wouldn't be surprised if this is MB's plan. Agro the military with fodder promised they'll be 'martyrs' and then milk the PR.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

I bet the IDF leadership are finding this hilarious.

"So Egyptian military, now you know the shit we have to deal with "


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 13 Million people (allegedly) voted for Morsi. 22 Million people signed a petition and wanted him out.




Not to waste my time arguing with an Islamophobe, but I'd suggest you read back on the thread. This has been refuted.

Mursi got 13 million votes, 51%+ of all those who were eligible to vote. That means, that had 100 million voted, 51 million would've been for Mursi. These votes are all counted and verified, without any actual evidence of corruption or rigging.

The "22 million" petition however, has no official count or verification to anyone for that matter. It's basically a baseless claim, and the Pro-Mursi crowds have shown that (although there's no accurate figures for numbers on either side).




Xyloxi said:


>



An opinion blog isn't actual evidence to show that Mursi tried to disband the elections and become a "dictator".

Also might want to actually read your own articles properly;

*Brown said concerns that Morsi is becoming or has become a dictator are "exaggerated for now." But he also said that while Morsi's fears about the judiciary were well grounded, they, too, were most likely exaggerated since Morsi could have just appointed a new constituent assembly.*



Xyloxi said:


> Evidence showing him to be authoritarian with the repressing of minorities as seen in the new constitution.




No evidence as such was shown.

And anyone can claim someone to be repressing of minorities, for example in France when the Burka was banned, it was seen by many as suppression. 



Xyloxi said:


> I don't have evidence of him dismantling elections



Thank you, then case closed.

Absolutely no justification for coup, because if he really "was unpopular" (not that he was, as seen by the latest support he has), then the next election would've picked him out.



Xyloxi said:


> A leader who oppresses minorities with a democratic mandate is not pro-democracy, that's called mob rule.




A person who is elected by the majority to be their president, is a "democracy". Your ideal of suppression is also without much basis.



Xyloxi said:


> The principles of democracy shouldn't suddenly disappear after an election, any ideology based on a convert religion is not going to have democratic values at its core,




This is an ignorant statement considering a nation that follows one ideology would "democratically" have the right to vote in that ideology to govern them. 



Xyloxi said:


> unless they seriously tone the religious nature of their policies down e.g. Germanic Christian Democratic parties.




I don't think any constitution in Egypt will survive without the influence and involvement of Religion - it's apart of Egypt's identity and culture.




Xyloxi said:


> The problem with Egyptian non-Islamists is that they aren't truly united ideologically, whereas the Islamists are.




Yet, most would still have no issues with religion playing a part in their constitution.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Not to waste my time arguing with an Islamophobe, but I'd suggest you read back on the thread. This has been refuted.
> 
> Mursi got 13 million votes, 51%+ of all those who were eligible to vote. That means, that had 100 million voted, 51 million would've been for Mursi. These votes are all counted and verified, without any actual evidence of corruption or rigging.
> 
> The "22 million" petition however, has no official count or verification to anyone for that matter. It's basically a baseless claim, and the Pro-Mursi crowds have shown that (although there's no accurate figures for numbers on either side).


And his victory was in a choice between him and a lackey of Mubarak.

It was a choice between two assholes. Everyone who voted for Morsi who wasn't MB only did it as a vote against the old regime.

As there was no proper opposition to the old regime in elections, many of those votes went to him and he vastly overstepped his mandate. A smart politician would be cognizant of how limited his mandate was and that he was only able to win because of a protest vote. Instead he then went on to take increasingly authoritarian actions.

As such, having overstepped that mandate, people sought to recall him with petitions and protests. Which he ignored.

A coup to prevent a new dictator is entirely justified.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Not to waste my time arguing with an Islamophobe, but I'd suggest you read back on the thread. This has been refuted.
> 
> Mursi got 13 million votes, 51%+ of all those who were eligible to vote. That means, that had 100 million voted, 51 million would've been for Mursi. These votes are all counted and verified, without any actual evidence of corruption or rigging.
> 
> The "22 million" petition however, has no official count or verification to anyone for that matter. It's basically a baseless claim, and the Pro-Mursi crowds have shown that (although there's no accurate figures for numbers on either side).


...I'm not an Islamophobe. I'm _against_ the Islamist Political movement. There's a difference Mudaari. 

Morsi got 13 Million votes. However, that figure is _disputed_. Many people noticed that, given the choices-Morsi or someone of the old regime? Many people didn't vote...yet afterwards Morsi got 51% of the vote with 13 million? You honestly don't see that as fishy?

Not only that, you ignore each and every time where Morsi systematically tried to dismantle the checks and balances, passed unpopular (for everyone not a Muslim Brotherhood) laws, ramped up the persecution of Jews and Christians living in Egypt, ramped up the tension with Israel, etc. 

Oh, and you also ignore that _in the entire region now_ Islamists and pro-Islamist governments are now under fire from the majority.


----------



## αce (Jul 8, 2013)

We can just make me the Pharoah and I shall establish a long and powerful rule. Brown nose me now if you want your own pyramid.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> You mean like empty their clips into a crowd of people...?



Still wont make a full-scale civil war. Te key to Syrians implosion is that its a fake country with deep sectarian tensions. The Sunnis and Kurds revolted against the alawite minority that had been dominating society for the last 40 years. Egypt lacks this sectarian angle, the only real minority are Nubians, coptics, and Ethiopians and the Arab majority has always made sure they're viciously oppressed and disenfranchised.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 8, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> Not to waste my time arguing with an Islamophobe, but I'd suggest you read back on the thread. This has been refuted.
> 
> Mursi got 13 million votes, 51%+ of all those who were eligible to vote. That means, that had 100 million voted, 51 million would've been for Mursi. These votes are all counted and verified, without any actual evidence of corruption or rigging.
> 
> ...



A) The election was a fraud, international observers actually admit that and the carter center has misgivings from the start.

B)It doesn't matter how much want religious based laws.  Unless your god comes down, 100% proves their existence and wins the election they must have 0 influence over law.  Law must be secular and made to make sense.  Not have some mythological being claiming authority when they refuse to show themselves. (This is for all religions)


----------



## Sarry (Jul 8, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if this is MB's plan. Agro the military with fodder promised they'll be 'martyrs' and then milk the PR.



Seems like a standard tactic. 

Anyway, most of promorsi supporters will not stop until Morsi is back on his illegitimate throne. I do recall there were calls to have Islamists focus on this and forget their families, and friends; which may include martyrdom.

And of course there are these lovely 'peaceful and innocent' types: 

[youtube]SFX1heljE9k[/youtube]
Also, i like how the delusional lady goes: I am not with MB but i attend their protests and support their cause 100%. Lets burn the Christians because some guy said so Rabble rabble.



αce said:


> We can just make me the Pharoah and I shall establish a long and powerful rule. Brown nose me now if you want your own pyramid.



Hmm, can my pyramid have a cat and some cookies on it?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

Oh, remember what Al Mudaari brought up? Well it turns out _the Pro-Morsi supporters not only fired first_, but were firing down from the buildings at the officers!

Oh, and the reason why they were there in the first place? The Pro-Morsi supporters were making molitov cocktails and stockpiling ammunition and firearms.


----------



## Blue (Jul 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh, remember what Al Mudaari brought up? Well it turns out _the Pro-Morsi supporters not only fired first_, but were firing down from the buildings at the officers!
> 
> Oh, and the reason why they were there in the first place? The Pro-Morsi supporters were making molitov cocktails and stockpiling ammunition and firearms.



[Citation needed]




> Anyway, most of promorsi supporters will not stop until Morsi is back on his *illegitimate* throne.


Saying it doesn't make it true.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> [Citation needed]






> Muslim Brotherhood members sit in front of soldiers blocking the road to the Republican Guard headquarters in Cairo. Photograph: Khaled Elfiqi/EPA
> 
> Egyptians are braced for new violence after at least 51 supporters of the deposed president Mohamed Morsi were killed by security forces in what the Muslim Brotherhood condemned as a massacre, but the military insisted was the result of an armed attack on a Cairo barracks.
> 
> ...





> 6:26PM BST 08 Jul 2013
> 
> "It was just after prayers had finished, around 4am on Monday morning, when I heard noises on the street below.
> 
> ...





> Saying it doesn't make it true.


Except its completely true. Barely anyone really voted at all, much less for Morsi.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 8, 2013)

You are essentially just taking the army at their word.



> Except its completely true. Barely anyone really voted at all, much less for Morsi.



Even if that were true, poor voter turnout does not make an election invalid.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

First Tsurugi said:


> You are essentially just taking the army at their word.


Since they are the far more credible source.




> Even if that were true, poor voter turnout does not make an election invalid.


It is true. You honestly wouldn't question how with such a low turnout would get Morsi 13 million votes?


----------



## Sarry (Jul 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> [Citation needed]
> 
> 
> Saying it doesn't make it true.



It lost legitimacy the moment Morsi attempted to expand his powers and give himself immunity from Egyptians laws/reviews back in november. He rescinded it only after it was met with heavy protests. 


His government failed miserably and that's why he was removed from position.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since they are the far more credible source.



They aren't, really, you are just going with what you want to be true. You aren't making any attempt at objectivity.



> It is true. You honestly wouldn't question how with such a low turnout would get Morsi 13 million votes?



Why would I? His competitor in the runoff election got almost as many votes.

It doesn't matter if people abstained because they didn't like the candidates or whatever. That does not magically invalidate the election.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

First Tsurugi said:


> They aren't, really, you are just going with what you want to be true. You aren't making any attempt at objectivity.


Posted a second source which showed the Morsi Supporters firing on the military. 

And there's a video posted on how crazy Morsi Supporters are too.


> Why would I? His competitor in the runoff election got almost as many votes.
> 
> It doesn't matter if people abstained because they didn't like the candidates or whatever. That does not magically invalidate the election.


Since 13 million votes magically appeared FOR MORSI. Hell, there were 22 million people, nearly twice the people who were said to have voted, that wanted him OUT. 

Even observers of the election noticed the irregularities.


And First Tsurugi, _why support an Islamist Government in the first place?_


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Posted a second source which showed the Morsi Supporters firing on the military.
> 
> And there's a video posted on how crazy Morsi Supporters are too.



There have been several accounts claiming the military fired without provocation. And even if they didn't, they fired indiscriminately into a crowd which contained women and children.



> Since 13 million votes magically appeared FOR MORSI. Hell, there were 22 million people, nearly twice the people who were said to have voted, that wanted him OUT.
> 
> Even observers of the election noticed the irregularities.



I don't see why it's unbelievable. There were two candidates, and they split the vote nearly in half.

Moreover, the protests seems to be centered around the fact that Morsi was unlawfully amassing power, not that he was illegitimately elected, so I don't feel the accusations have much merit.



> And First Tsurugi, _why support an Islamist Government in the first place?_



If the people of Egypt want an Islamist government, and I'm not saying they do, because a lot clearly don't, who am I to tell them otherwise? Accepting the principles of democracy means you must also accept the fact that people may not agree with what you think is best, and that not voting means you don't get a say in the election process.

I won't go as far as to say the coup was uncalled for, but it does create a worrying precedent for the country.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 8, 2013)

First Tsurugi said:


> There have been several accounts claiming the military fired without provocation. And even if they didn't, they fired indiscriminately into a crowd which contained women and children.


Women and children which haven't been accounted for. 




> I don't see why it's unbelievable. There were two candidates, and they split the vote nearly in half.
> 
> Moreover, the protests seems to be centered around the fact that Morsi was unlawfully amassing power, not that he was illegitimately elected, so I don't feel the accusations have much merit.


Since 13 million people suddenly, out of no where, voted for Morsi. Several people noted the irregularity. 

And again, 22 million people didn't want Morsi.


> If the people of Egypt want an Islamist government, and I'm not saying they do, because a lot clearly don't, who am I to tell them otherwise? Accepting the principles of democracy means you must also accept the fact that people may not agree with what you think is best, and that not voting means you don't get a say in the election process.
> 
> I won't go as far as to say the coup was uncalled for, but it does create a worrying precedent for the country.


Even though Islamist Governments destroy the very democracies that vote them in?


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Jul 8, 2013)

> Army and police spokesmen said that one soldier and two policemen had also been killed. But according to witnesses and video footage, one of the policemen appeared to have been shot by soldiers, and the military provided little evidence to back its claim that the fighting had been instigated by the Islamists.




51 people dead at a sit-in?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jul 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Women and children which haven't been accounted for.



You can play these technicalities all you want, the fact remains that they fired on non-violent protesters. You should accept that this was a bad thing or come to terms with the fact that you are defending violations of human rights.



> Since 13 million people suddenly, out of no where, voted for Morsi. Several people noted the irregularity.



Out of nowhere? He garnered 5 million plus votes in the first round, and won that round too. There was nothing surprising about his victory.



> And again, 22 million people didn't want Morsi.



Most voters didn't want Bush in 2000 either.



> Even though Islamist Governments destroy the very democracies that vote them in?



Again, it's not my business to tell Egyptians what is best for them.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 9, 2013)

First Tsurugi said:


> You can play these technicalities all you want, the fact remains that they fired on non-violent protesters. You should accept that this was a bad thing or come to terms with the fact that you are defending violations of human rights.


 So its safe to say neither side is particularly noble, though I'm not hearing the army calling for the Coptics blood.



> Out of nowhere? He garnered 5 million plus votes in the first round, and won that round too. There was nothing surprising about his victory.


Morsi only won because the guy he was running against was Mubarak's former PM.



> Most voters didn't want Bush in 2000 either.


Bush and Obama didn't try to structure law whereupon all power would be concentrated in their political parties, there were also checks and balances in place to prevent either man from merging church and state, though Bush certainly gave it a college try.



> Again, it's not my business to tell Egyptians what is best for them.


So what is it you're objecting to here? That we consider the army "the lesser of two evils" compared to the MB?


----------



## Al Mudaari (Jul 9, 2013)

Good ole Saudi Arabia... they must've really hated MB lol

_*Saudi Arabia has approved a $5 billion aid package to Egypt on Tuesday comprising a $2 billion central bank deposit, $2 billion in energy products, and $1 billion in cash, the Saudi Finance Minister Ibrahim Alassaf has told Reuters news agency.*_



Nemesis said:


> A) The election was a fraud, international observers actually admit that and the carter center has misgivings from the start.




Only reason I'm quoting this is because of how much utter rubbish this statement is. Try watching this;

[YOUTUBE]W_bdYjF3wJs[/YOUTUBE]

But feel free to actually bring some proof.



Nemesis said:


> B)It doesn't matter how much want religious based laws.




Actually it does. That's why it's called "democracy". But like, if you support dictatorship then can't argue against that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And again, 22 million people didn't want Morsi.




Already refuted this.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 9, 2013)

Azzam Tamimi is a dyed-in-the-wool Hamas apologist.


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 9, 2013)

Kagekatsu said:


> Azzam Tamimi is a dyed-in-the-wool Hamas apologist.



I really doubt that bothers Al Mudaari, guy is an unapologetic Jihadist and pretends he's a member of Al Qaeda. I keep him around because he's so funny and helps my cause around here.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 9, 2013)

It turns out the muslim brotherhood doesn't like America. That's just weird. How can they not like America? (rhetorical) I mean, America's awesomeness compels people to like them. All Hollywood fans should like America and I think they need to apologise to America and repent; maybe watch Star Wars as a way to become more Americanised. Hell, I've recently started to play Micky Mouse Castle of Illusion to save his girlfriend after it emerged that Disney had bought Star Wars. Now, if I - a guy who used to hate Micky Mouse - can change, so can the muslim brotherhood.


----------



## Sarry (Jul 9, 2013)

Actually, i never understood this:
Saudi Arabia was glad that Mosri was forced out of his position. I would have thought that Saudi Arabia would encourage the MB in egypt.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 9, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Actually, i never understood this:
> Saudi Arabia was glad that Mosri was forced out of his position. I would have thought that Saudi Arabia would encourage the MB in egypt.


Saudis are nothing if not pragmatic.

They're essentially in a cold war with Iran. And Morsi and MB made overtures to the Iranians so Saudis are glad to see them go and want to see Egypt back within their sphere of influence. Hence the aid to buy good will.


----------



## Sarry (Jul 9, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Saudis are nothing if not pragmatic.
> 
> They're essentially in a cold war with Iran. And Morsi and MB made overtures to the Iranians so Saudis are glad to see them go and want to see Egypt back within their sphere of influence. Hence the aid to buy good will.



I see. That makes sense. While both Iran and SA are pretty bad, at least MB wouldn't have a strong influence in the region. 

Thanks!


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 9, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Actually, i never understood this:
> Saudi Arabia was glad that Mosri was forced out of his position. I would have thought that Saudi Arabia would encourage the MB in egypt.



Saudi's preferred Mubarak in power to the MB as the former was friendlier to them than the latter (and did not make overtures to Iran). However they're supporting the MB in Syria over Assad because the former is friendlier to them than the latter (and was not an Iranian puppet).

Welcome to the upside down world of Arab politics.


----------



## dr_shadow (Jul 10, 2013)

*Egypt orders arrest of Brotherhood leaders*



> *(Reuters) - Egypt's prosecutor ordered the arrest on Wednesday of the leaders of ousted President Mohamed Mursi's Muslim Brotherhood, charging them with inciting violence in a clash that saw troops shoot 55 Mursi supporters dead.*
> 
> A week after the army toppled Egypt's first democratically elected leader, bloodshed has opened deep fissures in the Arab world's most populous country, with bitterness at levels unseen in its modern history.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/10/us-egypt-protests-idUSBRE95Q0NO20130710


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 10, 2013)

This is getting a bit familiar 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBw35Ze3bg8[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## dr_shadow (Jul 10, 2013)

Could we change the thread title to include the word "Egypt" somewhere? 

I had to endure the humiliation of having my thread merged into this one because the title wasn't transparent enough to catch my attention when scanning the first 2 pages of the caf?.

I know "the Nile" is in Egypt, but damn it...


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 10, 2013)

> *Egypt crisis: Morsi supporters filmed throwing opponents off tower in shocking video*
> *Two opponents of the ousted Egyptian president were killed on Friday after being thrown from a roof in Alexandria by supporters of Mohammed Morsi, according to dramatic amateur video posted online and witness accounts. *
> 
> One man, thought to be an anti-Morsi protester, appears to be pulled from a water tower on the roof, before being beaten.
> ...




Islamists confirmed for being bloody savages.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 10, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Islamists confirmed for being bloody savages.


Buh...buh...DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM OVER DICTATORSHIP and something, something.


----------



## Sarry (Jul 10, 2013)

And they have think they can rule democratically. From paying , to threatening suicide bombings, and actually fatally hurt and murder egyptians. 

They aren't even fit to rule themselves...bunch of backwards bastards. Maybe their wish should be granted, and the egyptian army should deal with them like the caliphates of old used to deal with difficult populations: violently.


----------



## Fiona (Jul 11, 2013)

This is just horrifying to watch


----------



## lacey (Jul 11, 2013)

> Thousands of Brotherhood supporters braved brutal summer heat to maintain their outdoor protest vigil despite the fast, clustering in tents to protect themselves from sun during daylight hours when Islam forbids eating food or drinking water.



I didn't realize they weren't allowed to drink water during that, I thought it was just food consumption they weren't allowed. So what do they drink instead, if at all?



Sunuvmann said:


> Islamists confirmed for being bloody savages.



Are you fucking kidding me?


----------



## Kagekatsu (Jul 11, 2013)

One thing's for sure, tourism is going to take a dive in Egypt if it hasn't already.

And considering that's half their country's economy...


----------



## Blue (Jul 11, 2013)

>Blow 250 people away with machine gun fire, killing 50
"They were defending themselves!"
>Toss 2 people off a tower
"Those bloody savages!"

You guys aren't even trying to think critically


----------



## Fiona (Jul 11, 2013)

Idk what the other incident you are talking about is. 

But what they did to those people on the tower was savage.

They were trying to escape the violence and where forced to fall and were savagely beaten. 

Sounds like savages to me.


----------



## Blue (Jul 11, 2013)

Yeah it obviously was savage but this is not good guys vs. bad guys

The other incident I refer to is the mass shooting 4 or so days ago of a crowd of people by a military force. You should probably have heard of it.

The islamists claim the people were just praying, which is obviously bullshit because 20 soldiers don't empty their clips into a crowd because they're praying too loud

The military claims the people were armed and attacking, which is obviously bullshit because the only military casualty was shot in the back by his own dudes

So probably the people were throwing rocks or some shit and the soldiers went off the chain. 

So with this incident, these islamists were just like, "hey, you guys, you look kind of dodgy, off the tower with you?"
Probably not. Not that I'm suggesting there's any good reason to push someone out the moon door, but they were probably anti-morsi protesters.


----------



## Sarry (Jul 11, 2013)

Blue said:


> The islamists claim the people were just praying, which is obviously bullshit because 20 soldiers don't empty their clips into a crowd because they're praying too loud
> 
> The military claims the people were armed and attacking, which is obviously bullshit *because the only military casualty was shot in the back by his own dudes*
> .


Source for that, please?


----------



## Megaharrison (Jul 11, 2013)

Blue said:


> >Blow 250 people away with machine gun fire, killing 50
> "They were defending themselves!"
> >Toss 2 people off a tower
> "Those bloody savages!"
> ...



Here in Israel we call those Arab shenanigans where one of the parties happened to have a machine gun.


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## Al Mudaari (Jul 11, 2013)

Sarry said:


> From paying ,




This is absolutely hilarious  Not because it's fox news (no suprise here, on both the source and the one who uses it), but due to the irony on the fact that the rape epidemic has been in Tahrir Sq. where the Anti-Mursi supporters have been held up. Its been unheard off in the "Islamist" marches.


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## Blue (Jul 11, 2013)

Someone who cites Al-Jazeera doesn't have the right to question Fox News. They're both legitimate sources, but.


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## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 11, 2013)

LOL @ the term "islamist"...


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## Sarry (Jul 11, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> This is absolutely hilarious  Not because it's fox news (no suprise here, on both the source and the one who uses it), but due to the irony on the fact that the rape epidemic has been in Tahrir Sq. where the Anti-Mursi supporters have been held up. Its been unheard off in the "Islamist" marches.


1) what's wrong with Fox news as a source?
2)
Interesting that you 'overlooked' the fact that these guys were paid to go the square and rape women. The only ones who'd benefit from this are the Morsi government or MB. 

But i doubt you'll ever see your precious MB any less than perfect.


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## Kagekatsu (Jul 11, 2013)

Sarry said:


> 1) what's wrong with Fox news as a source?
> 2)
> Interesting that you 'overlooked' the fact that these guys were paid to go the square and rape women. The only ones who'd benefit from this are the Morsi government or MB.
> 
> But i doubt you'll ever see your precious MB any less than perfect.


You're trying to argue reason to a guy who thinks the Tsarnaevs are innocent.


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## Mael (Jul 11, 2013)

Not just innocent, but that one of them is an actual martyr.  I don't know whether he's trolling or truly the reason nobody likes Islam nowadays.


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## Xyloxi (Jul 11, 2013)

Mael said:


> Not just innocent, but that one of them is an actual martyr.  I don't know whether he's trolling or truly the reason nobody likes Islam nowadays.



I like to imagine that he's Mega's dupe, to further the cause of Zionism on the internet.


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## Mael (Jul 11, 2013)

Xyloxi said:


> I like to imagine that he's Mega's dupe, to further the cause of Zionism on the internet.



But I thought that was Perserverance?


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## Hand Banana (Jul 11, 2013)

What ever happened to him? Liked that guy.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Jul 11, 2013)

Alphonse Madurri is annoying.


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## Xyloxi (Jul 11, 2013)

Mael said:


> But I thought that was Perserverance?



Well, maybe he just used his Jew gold to get himself a new dupe?


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## Sarry (Jul 11, 2013)

Kagekatsu said:


> You're trying to argue reason to a guy who thinks the Tsarnaevs are innocent.



I thought it would be ok to give him the benefit of the doubt, and try to reason with him.


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## Mael (Jul 11, 2013)

Sarry said:


> I thought it would be ok to give him the benefit of the doubt, and try to reason with him.



There's no reasoning with Islamic extremism, only learning on how to permanently remove Islamic extremism.


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## Blue (Jul 11, 2013)

Mael said:


> There's no reasoning with Islamic extremism, only learning on how to permanently remove Islamic extremism.



1. Education
2. High explosives
3. Let them all murder each other

1 is nice but 3 is often the more practical


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## Sarry (Jul 11, 2013)

Mael said:


> There's no reasoning with Islamic extremism, only learning on how to permanently remove Islamic extremism.



Well, I guess in that case modifying the culture would help greatly. As most of them tend to slack off, and blame everyone when economical/social situation turns bad.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 11, 2013)

Xyloxi said:


> I like to imagine that he's Mega's dupe, to further the cause of Zionism on the internet.


This...this wouldn't surprise me.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 12, 2013)

*Column: Is becoming Pakistan the best Egypt can hope for? - Ian Bremmer*



> *(Ian Bremmer is a Reuters columnist but his opinions are his own.)*
> 
> By Ian Bremmer
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/11/us-bremmer-egypt-idUSBRE96A0XU20130711


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## Kagekatsu (Jul 27, 2013)

> *Death and divisions in Egypt after judge orders Morsy jailed*
> By Ben Brumfield. Hamdi Alkhshali and Ben Wedeman, CNN
> July 27, 2013 -- Updated 1617 GMT (0017 HKT)
> Cairo (CNN) -- Any use of force to end mass protests staged by supporters of deposed Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy will only result in more death, the country's interim interior minister said Saturday.
> ...



Surprised Mudaari hasn't had an aneurysm over this


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## Chelydra (Aug 15, 2013)

At least 600 people have now been killed:


The US is cancelling a joint military exercise with Egypt in response.


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## Mael (Aug 15, 2013)

So aside from a few places in the Maghreb, the Arab Spring has been nothing short of a clusterfuck...


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## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

Al Mudaari said:


> This is absolutely hilarious  Not because it's fox news (no suprise here, on both the source and the one who uses it), but due to the irony on the fact that the rape epidemic has been in Tahrir Sq. where the Anti-Mursi supporters have been held up. Its been unheard off in the "Islamist" marches.


Really, Every Islamic act in the past 50 years has all been about death and destruction.

Morsi, leader of the MUSLIM Brotherhood. Supporters of Morsi and the MUSLIM Brotherhood are creating violence and destruction just because their leader was kicked out for extremist ideology and policies. STFU and deal with it, its a democracy.

Either way I don't give a shit every time I turn my television on they are talking about Islamist killing Islamist over stupid shit. Atleast it isn't like Iraq where the Baptist are killing the Catholics... per say.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 15, 2013)

Mael said:


> So aside from a few places in the Maghreb, the Arab Spring has been nothing short of a clusterfuck...



Well it did start with Arab. It did accomplish things for terrorist groups however. The governments became unstable lost key weapons and territory and gave the extremist a foothold in the region. In that aspect it has been a huge success but working toward a democratic regime and civil aspects they worry about big bad Israel cross the pond. They so evil Islamist kill each other to hurt Israel. Thats why I never see why people side with extremist. They flaunt you religious beliefs in extreme ways, they actively target civilians(in their name Terrorist, to create terror and incite fear in a general population). If there was a bunch of rebellious Christians running around killing folks of different religion and very minuscule differences in America, you think anyone would support them; Maybe a few radicals but thats it.


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## Kagekatsu (Aug 15, 2013)

Mael said:


> So aside from a few places in the Maghreb, the Arab Spring has been nothing short of a clusterfuck...


Its what happens when you try to introduce modern principles to a place that is culturally grounded in the 8th century.

What we tried and failed to do in Iraq should have been an early warning.


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## Sunuvmann (Aug 15, 2013)

Mael said:


> So aside from a few places in the Maghreb, the Arab Spring has been nothing short of a clusterfuck...


I thoroughly disagree.

I mean yes, its been messy as fuck. And certainly could have gone better.

But in a 'Is it worth it' then my answer is a resounding hell yes. Democracy in Europe was a far messier process what with oh, the French Revolution, all the Napoleonic wars, the counter-revolutioning from reactionaries, oh and 2 world wars, and a cold one.

The more or less full democratization of Europe took nearly 2 centuries. 2 years ain't gonna do jack shit in the Middle East.

But without that, there's pretty much been zero progress among the states in the Middle East since, well, the fall of the Ottomans. It was ridiculously stagnant.

And its largely for that reason its been rather violent. Decades of pent up opinions and all.

Remember, they still haven't guillotine'd people lol.


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