# Law Gauntlet



## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Location: Greenbit Coast
Distance: 10M
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: Ic 
Restrictions: Law cannot use any DF powers *except for Injection Shot and Radio Knife.*

Law must rely on his swordsmanship/unique Sword skills to win

- Pre skip Zoro and Ryuuma (no haki for Law)
- Hyozo
- Cavendish
- Diamante 
- Zoro (Two Swords)

Scenario 1: No heals
Scenario 2: Healed every round


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## drew8324 (Jan 19, 2015)

Law take all. However he would have an extreme diff with Zoro and a High-high diff with Diamante


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## convict (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm not entirely sure if injection shot is a DF power. Going with reaching Diamante both times but losing with high difficulty. Diamante may be weaker than I imagine so that is still iffy but for sure Law is not beating 2 sword Zoro. I still feel he will be able to put up a decent fight against Zoro though since, if anything, he has drilled into our skulls how comprehensively powerful he is - not lacking in stats or Haki. He can hold his own without the fruit but when Zoro starts utilizing his more big guns the match can only end in Law's defeat.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 19, 2015)

Stops at Diamante.


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## Amol (Jan 19, 2015)

Is room restricted ?
I am not sure whether I understood restrictions clearly or not.
Neither Radio Knife nor Injection shot requires room.
Anyway he stops at Diamante.


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## trance (Jan 19, 2015)

> - Pre skip Zoro and Ryuuma (no haki for Law)
> -Hyozo



He stomps the first two fights. Let's assume his swordsmanship skill is less than pre-TS Zoro and Ryuuma's for a second just for shits and giggles. His stats are enough to repeatedly clash against a physically-oriented fighter like Smoker without looking two badly and can even intercept and block Doffy's "Overheat" with nothing but his own genuine strength. He can simply bash that incarnation of Zoro, Ryuuma and Hyouzo around like ragdolls.



> - Cavendish



I'd say a DFless Law is still a bit above Cavendish. I don't see Cavendish being able to replicate Law's feats.



> - Diamante



I suppose Diamante's swordsmanship + his DF hysteria may pose a problem for Law. It allowed him to gain the edge over Kyros but I'm not sure if that's enough to suggest he can match or defeat Law. 



> - Zoro (Two Swords)



Law loses handily. There should be _no doubt_ that Law needs his DF to beat any form of current Zoro. Not only is Zoro's swordsmanship - even with one or two swords - comfortably above Law's but I can't help but feel stats like physical strength are a bit above Law's, at the bare minimum, being no less. There's also the question that Zoro's Haki _may_ be stronger than Law's but even if it's not, he still beats a DFless Law.

So, overall, he probably stops at Diamante with no heals but might make it to Zoro. With heals, he stops at Zoro.


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## Bernkastel (Jan 19, 2015)

Scenario 1: stops at Zoro high(low) diff.
Scenario 2: Clears extreme diff.

With Law you either have much superior stats to fill the gap or u have much better haki than him.
Zoro has none but he should be able to push him that far.

Edit: Wait is room and its whole properties restricted by saying that he cant use df powers?


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## Datassassin (Jan 19, 2015)

_With_ haki Law should comfortably beat pre-skip Zoro+Ryuuma but without it and without most of his powers I don't see how Law is surviving. Law can use a sword to block bear-swipes from DD well enough, but is he skilled enough to take that duo? I really doubt it. Law can't do energy slashes like both pre-skip fighters can, he can't manipulate the wind with his blade, he can't use friction/flames with swordplay, he doesn't even have any real skillful techniques/maneuvers. Hardening would be what Law would ordinarily use to tank their flying thrusts/slashes and stop blades not blocked with his sword but without Hardening I don't see Law as skillful enough to win. Asura with Ryuuma shooting from the side fuck Law up.

Otherwise Law would have won + blown past Hyouzou then get beat by Cavendish, who should be able to give an unrestricted Law high diff depending on how long Hakuba is out and more importantly how their haki matches up. Law restricted like this should lose to most M3 level fighters. Diamante eventually would prevail and Zoro slaughters.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Datassassin said:


> *With haki Law should comfortably beat pre-skip Zoro+Ryuuma but without it and without most of his powers I don't see how Law is surviving.*


Thank you for entering my thread. Unfortunately, it has been calculated that a conversation from here would go absolutely no where. Thank your for stopping by, please grab a sticker as you exit in the top left corner of your screen.



> *he doesn't even have any real skillful techniques/maneuvers. *Hardening would be what Law would ordinarily use to tank their flying thrusts/slashes and stop blades not blocked with his sword but without Hardening* I don't see Law as skillful enough to win. Asura with Ryuuma shooting from the side fuck Law up.
> *
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kaiser (Jan 19, 2015)

S1: Stops at Cavendish
S2: Not sure. Either stops at Cavendish or Diamante


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## Datassassin (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


>


a) I must have missed where suddenly Zoro doesn't have ample strength with one-sword techniques, let alone two. Shishi Sonson, Daishinkan, pound canons, Kiryu Kaen and Rashomon must all be carefully constructed illusions. The guy who relies mainly on his DF power will _really_ pose a challenge to the guy whose bread and butter is swordplay, and who is only slightly weaker overall.
b) Looked for sword techniques or even nameless skillful strikes from Kenshin Law and found dust dear sir. Such is life.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Datassassin said:


> a) I must have missed where suddenly Zoro doesn't have ample strength with one-sword techniques, let alone two. Shishi Sonson, Daishinkan, pound canons, Kiryu Kaen and Rashomon must all be carefully constructed illusions.


Zoro stomping Law is very funny. 

 T





> he guy who relies mainly on his DF power will _really_ pose a challenge to the guy whose bread and butter is swordplay, and who is only slightly weaker overall.


Law has training in martial arts and swordsmanship.

Law has shown the ability to parry someone like Dofla multiple times, and block Overheat with just his swords. Got a stab wound on the reaction feats of Dofla, someone who lol dodged Sanji's Premiere Hachi's from a similar distance, and has been making Luffy look like a Paradise Fodder in CqC.

But I guess your just like Don Usopp, and think Parrying/Defense require no skill 



> b) Looked for sword techniques or even nameless skillful strikes from Kenshin Law and found dust dear sir. Such is life.



Swordsman
-

Law


Swordsman


Law 


Swordsman


Law


Some Extra's


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## Typhon (Jan 19, 2015)

Gets to Diamante with no heals. Loses to Zoro

Yeah, being able to take Smoker in CQC is all Law really needs to say he'd beat the duo, Cavendish, and Diamante imo, granted, he would have lost in a straight CQC fight (Once Smoker choke slammed him), which is why Zoro beats him with mid diff.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Gets to Diamante with no heals. Loses to Zoro
> 
> Yeah, being able to take Smoker in CQC is all Law really needs to say he'd beat the duo, Cavendish, and Diamante imo, granted, he would have lost in a straight CQC fight (Once Smoker choke slammed him), which is why Zoro beats him with mid diff.



While I do agree that DF Smoker would have eventually beaten a DF'less Law, Smoker only got the jump on Law originally because he intercepted Law from attacking Tashigi, and immediately used a smoke creep attack to surprise Law. The rest of the fight he was golden.

Alot of people think this is a shambles feat, but it isn't. It's a speed feat.


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## Datassassin (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Zoro stomping Law is very funny.


You took away 85% of Law's strength, what did you expect?  Removing one or even two swords from Zoro wouldn't be remotely as great of a handicap.



Dr. White said:


> Law has shown the ability to parry someone like Dofla multiple times, and block Overheat with just his swords. Got a stab wound on the reaction feats of Dofla, someone who lol dodged Sanji's Premiere Hachi's from a similar distance,


You gave Law two opponents who each with a free hit could land a lethal blow. You took away Law's means of compensating for that, the armor of Hardening COA, so while parrying 9 swords he's getting blasted by Ryuuma's energy-thrust things which will quite plainly pierce his flesh. Yes, Law can parry, we know that well. Can he attack half as decently as he holds up his sword to block? Likely not, nor has he demonstrated the skill to be able to block sword strikes from multiple directions simultaneously. Law isn't physically stronger than always-been-a-monster Zoro either so it's not like he's just going to overpower him in an instant, nor will he be able to just break any of his opponents' legendary blades because he'd need COA for that as well.



Dr. White said:


> and has been making Luffy look like a Paradise Fodder in CqC.


Not worth bragging too hard about looking better than someone who hasn't been 100% serious yet, really. As it stands Law certainly seems stronger than Luffy but we know that train will see its last stop soon enough.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Datassassin said:


> You took away 85% of Law's strength, what did you expect?  Removing one or even two swords wouldn't be remotely as great of a handicap.


Law is much more balanced than you are leading yourself to believe 

So does two sword Zoro stomp Base Luffy 




> You gave Law two opponents who each with a free hit could land a lethal blow. You took away Law's means of compensating for that, the armor of Hardening COA, so while parrying 9 swords he's getting blasted by Ryuuma's energy-thrust things which will quite plainly pierce his flesh.


Because they are going to be on Law's speed/Reaction level 

Because Law doesn't have amazing attack speed on his own 

Because if we pitted Pre Skip zoro and Ryuuma at their best vs Doflamingo just using 5 colored strings, they wouldn't get no diffed right 



> Yes, Law can parry, we know that well. Can he attack half as decently as he holds up his sword to block? Likely not, nor has he demonstrated the skill to be able to block sword strikes from multiple directions simultaneously.




Parrying/Defense is just as much of swordsmanship as attacking. Apparrently you don't know jack about swordsmanship.

Also his feat against Dofla was straight out of a Parry, further highlighting his ability to go from defense to offense.

He cut up Trebol (who was looking him straight in the face)  before he could react, evenly kept pace with Smoker in CqC, beat Vergo to the punch in a duel, and *stabbed Doflamingo* (just in case you missed that part). His feats against Dofla coming while being severly stamina drained and injured.

As for Law not being able to dodge from two directions.....

A.) I won't get into the fact that Law has better reactions/speed.

B.) The main point is the fact that.......
Law did react tomulti directional attacks from Smoker, on two occasions  Someone who would destroy Zoro and Ryuuma 




> Law isn't physical stronger than always-been-a-monster Zoro either so it's not like he's just going to overpower him in an instant, nor will he be able to just break any of his opponents' legendary blades because he'd need COA for that as well.


Because Zoro could catch overheat with his sword 

Because Zoro could parry attacks from Dofla without Haki 

Because Smoker wouldn't overpower the fuck out of Zoro, and send his swords flying 




> Not worth bragging too hard about looking better than someone who hasn't been 100% serious yet, really. As it stands Law certainly seems stronger than Luffy but we know that train will see its last stop soon enough.


Yep, because Law hasn't been gimped this whole arc, and has gone all out yet too right? 

I would ask you to add 50 Cents and try again, but after seeing the arguments above against Law, I'd really rather not.


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## Typhon (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> While I do agree that DF Smoker would have eventually beaten a DF'less Law, Smoker only got the jump on Law originally because he intercepted Law from attacking Tashigi, and immediately used a smoke creep attack to surprise Law. The rest of the fight he was golden.
> 
> Alot of people think this is a shambles feat, but it isn't. It's a speed feat.


Iirc, there was a pause when Smoker blocked him and Law's eyes were able to follow Smoker, but he couldn't defend himself.

Edit: Misread, but logically Law is all in all tougher then a pacifista so neither Zoro or Ryuuma will be able to put him down even with their best moves.


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## Extravlad (Jan 19, 2015)

Knife Zoro > DFless Law.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Iirc, there was a pause when Smoker blocked him and Law's eyes were able to follow Smoker, but he couldn't defend himself.



My point is that he used his interception, to use logia form to outmaneuver Law. The fact that once they engaged eachother, Law dealt with it fine without using Room to dodge, tells us, the interception played a major role there.


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## Datassassin (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> So does two sword Zoro stomp Base Luffy


Base Luffy still shits on Base Law, so of course not. Zoro does win without being pushed at all though.



Dr. White said:


> Because they are going to be on Law's speed/Reaction level
> Because Law doesn't have amazing attack speed on his own


Law has fast-movement feats without Shambles? I never said he couldn't react to the arms of Asura, but he won't be able to deal with Asura + another person attacking blind spots. "No haki" = no COO.



Dr. White said:


> Because if we pitted Pre Skip zoro and Ryuuma at their best vs Doflamingo just using 5 colored strings, they wouldn't get no diffed right


They don't even have COA so of course they die horribly. I generally assume most high-level clashes have the normal invisible force-augmenting COA involved, especially after Boo said a run of the mill slash from him had COA in it.



Dr. White said:


> He cut up Trebol (who was looking him straight in the face)  before he could react,


He cut him after surprising him by instantly teleporting in front of his screaming-at-DD face, and we shouldn't pretend as if Trebol is known as some CQC beast here.



Dr. White said:


> evenly kept pace with Smoker in CqC, beat Vergo to the punch in a duel


Law's swordplay never had Smoker on the ropes. He blocked and dodged Smoker's repeated attempts to whack him, but somehow I doubt Law would have done as well if Smoker had 8 more arms and someone firing projectiles from the side. Wasn't Vergo doing some excessive wind-up for his strike while 100% confident Law's strike would bounce off his body before he struck?



Dr. White said:


> Law did react tomulti directional attacks from Smoker, on two occasions


Blocking a singular thing whizzing around you is not the same as blocking at least ten things _at once_ (Zoro's swords + Ryuuma's). Two arms of Asura swing down and Law stoically stops them with his blade, then immediately a third comes down to add pressure. A fourth swings from an angle and Law has to adjust the entire position of his blade. Arms five and six slash out and Law has to actually move his feet now, an energy attack from Ryuuma whizzing by. Arms seven through nine go for strikes in different areas, Law probably gets a non-lethal cut and then pierced by Ryuuma in that instant.



Dr. White said:


> Because Zoro could catch overheat with his sword
> 
> Because Zoro could parry attacks from Dofla without Haki


Coming back to my earlier point...why wouldn't Law have used haki? Honestly. When 'poorly trained' run-of-the-mill goons like Boo will just put COA into ordinary strikes lowkey, why wouldn't Law or anyone sensible block using the invisible COA as well? And current Zoro probably could catch Overheat or redirect it. Don't see why not. If you mean pre-skip Zoro, guy-with-no-haki let alone _good_-haki, no shit he fails.



Dr. White said:


> Because Smoker wouldn't overpower the fuck out of Zoro, and send his swords flying


DF-less, haki-less Smoker vs pre-skip Asura and Ryuuma would also be in hot water but would likely win as he's been portrayed as a considerably superior CQC fighter to Law.



Dr. White said:


> Yep, because Law hasn't been gimped this whole arc, and has gone all out yet too right?


We've seen Law's best move (mountain-cutter), we've seen how far he can push someone of DD's level solo (bridge fight + current), and we're seeing every nook and cranny of his other DF powers as he fights against someone he desperately wants to kill. His injuries/fatigue should only impact his movements/Room size, not whether or not he can use all of his abilities. After the effects of Injection Shot kick in I wouldn't be surprised if that was all Law had.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Datassassin said:


> Base Luffy still shits on Base Law, so of course not. Zoro does win without being pushed at all though.


You think Two sword Zoro beats Base Luffy without atleast Mid Diff?

Also I'm sure you have some proof that Base Luffy would beat Base Law, other than your baseless opinion right? Don't worry I'll wait.




> Law has fast-movement feats without Shambles?


If you bothered to take a look at the scans I have been posting yes, he dodged Smoker's Jutte thrust, and got his side for a slash.



> I never said he couldn't react to the arms of Asura, but he won't be able to deal with Asura + another person attacking blind spots. "No haki" = no COO.


None of these people are on his reaction tier though. That's what you aren't understanding. Law hasn't been using COO for most of his fights, I don't know why you would think they'd even be close.




> They don't even have COA so of course they die horribly. I generally assume most high-level clashes have the normal invisible force-augmenting COA involved, especially after Boo said a run of the mill slash from him had COA in it.


Okay. So despite the fact, that that is baseless, do you think Zoro and Ryuuma would get no diffed by dofla without Haki?




> He cut him after surprising him by instantly teleporting in front of his screaming-at-DD face, and we shouldn't pretend as if Trebol is known as some CQC beast here.


Trebol is still a Mid High Tier, which showcased amazing reactions. He stared Law in the face before Law, cut him up from a sitting down position. How are you gonna say that requires no swordsmanship skill?




> Law's swordplay never had Smoker on the ropes. He blocked and dodged Smoker's repeated attempts to whack him, but somehow I doubt Law would have done as well if Smoker had 8 more arms and someone firing projectiles from the side.


Law got multiple slashes at Smoker within his room, and he was using DF more so than his swordsmanship. 

Smoker would fucking destroy pre skip Zoro and Ryuuma. I dont understand why you don't get that there is a huge speed/reaction gap present. So yeah if Smoker (with High Tier reactions and speed) with 8 arms and someone firing at LAw's sides would so something, because of his base stats.



> Wasn't Vergo doing some excessive wind-up for his strike while 100% confident Law's strike would bounce off his body before he struck?


Vergo did the wind up vs Smoker. Vs Law he was banging it on the ground akin to a batter warming up before a strike. Then he got beat to the punch by Law.



> Blocking a singular thing whizzing around you is not the same as blocking at least ten things _at once_ (Zoro's swords + Ryuuma's).


You're right. It's much harder considering Smoker is much faster and stronger.

also why are you assuming that:
A.) Zoro will got Asura before he gets cut down.
B.) That Zoro can sustain Ashura for more than 1 strike?



> Two arms of Asura swing down and Law stoically stops them with his blade, then immediately a third comes down to add pressure. A fourth swings from an angle and Law has to adjust the entire position of his blade. Arms five and six slash out and Law has to actually move his feet now, an energy attack from Ryuuma whizzing by. Arms seven through nine go for strikes in different areas, Law probably gets a non-lethal cut and then pierced by Ryuuma in that instant.


This is really some awesome fanfic.

But in reality its more like.

Zoro engages, Law. Who parries and then outreacts Zoro and cuts him in half. 

Then Ryuuma comes in with a thrust that gets promptly dodged, and he gets a radio knife to the midsection.




> Coming back to my earlier point...why wouldn't Law have used haki? Honestly. When 'poorly trained' run-of-the-mill goons like Boo will just put COA into ordinary strikes lowkey, why wouldn't Law or anyone sensible block using the invisible COA as well?


Because nothing suggest that he did. You are making a claim that he did with no visual indicators from Oda that such a thing occured. Why would Oda then highlight Law blocking himself with Black armaments?



> And current Zoro probably could catch Overheat or redirect it. Don't see why not. If you mean pre-skip Zoro, guy-with-no-haki let alone _good_-haki, no shit he fails.


Why the hell do you think that Haki is the only thing people trained?

Pre skip Zoro would get fucking molested by post skip zoro or law. they are faster, stronger, more reactive, durable, have better endurance, etc. It's not even close. 



> DF-less, haki-less Smoker vs pre-skip Asura and Ryuuma would also be in hot water but would likely win as he's been portrayed as a considerably superior CQC fighter to Law.


Ok lol. 




> We've seen Law's best move (mountain-cutter), we've seen how far he can push someone of DD's level solo (bridge fight + current),


-Prove that Law's mountain cutter is his best move. It's his most destructive move so far but prove Law couldn't do more. 

By that logic Luffy has gone all out as well. 

*Also his fight with DD doesn't count as Law's potential. He was low on DF ability from PH and that was before his fight with Dofla/Fuji.*





> and we're seeing every nook and cranny of his other DF powers as he fights against someone he desperately wants to kill. His injuries/fatigue should only impact his movements/Room size, not whether or not he can use all of his abilities.




Law has been showing he can physically keep up and fight Dofla, something Luffy as of yet cannot do, and Sanji failed at to boot.

Ok so then a severly drained Law, whose reactions, movements, and room ability is drained, is not something indicative of his full potential. The fact that he's showing Luffy up in such a state should be speaking volumes to you.



> After the effects of Injection Shot kick in I wouldn't be surprised if that was all Law had.


Yeah because let's forget that he hasn't been 100% since PH, fought Dofla multiple times, and survived town busting attacsks from Dofla, and Fujitora at once, prior to being in this fight with Luffy, in which he's done the heavy lifting.

Yeah, I knew you were trouble when you walked in.


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## ShadowReaper (Jan 19, 2015)

Loses to Zoro in both scenarios.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

ShadowReaper said:


> Loses to Zoro in both scenarios.



What diff's?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 19, 2015)

Stops at Diamante in both rounds.


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## ShadowReaper (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> What diff's?



First scenario Zoro mid difficult's him.

Second high level of difficulty perhaps. Zoro is a better swordsmen and has plentiful of feats to back it. He was trained by Mihawk, he easily cleaved Pacifista and even cut Kuma before TS and has cut Pica without much trouble. They are about the same in other areas and Law has better Haki, but Zoro is more skilled.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

ShadowReaper said:


> First scenario Zoro mid difficult's him.
> 
> Second high level of difficulty perhaps. Zoro is a better swordsmen and has plentiful of feats to back it. He was trained by Mihawk, he easily cleaved Pacifista and even cut Kuma before TS and has cut Pica without much trouble. They are about the same in other areas and Law has better Haki, but Zoro is more skilled.



Well I think Law would lose Low diff if he made it past Diamante. Cav would give Law some trouble, and Hakuba could possibly end him (although with Law's reaction/Parry feats, and Haki to boot I can't see it). Diamante is gonna push him because he doesn't have to get close and can use Bantera to mess up the surroundings.

But I agree with Law pushing two Sword Zoro to High if he's fresh.


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## Datassassin (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> You think Two sword Zoro beats Base Luffy without atleast Mid Diff?
> Also I'm sure you have some proof that Base Luffy would beat Base Law, other than your baseless opinion right? Don't worry I'll wait.


-Lower-end of mid diff, and I wouldn't categorize it as legit pressuring since Zoro could come away with no injuries.
-Luffy's physical strength >>>>>> Law's. His speed without G2 should also still be superior. Luffy has great COO, is a close-quarters specialist to begin with, and it's unlikely Law has better COA than the guy who uses it all the time.



Dr. White said:


> If you bothered to take a look at the scans I have been posting yes, he dodged Smoker's Jutte thrust, and got his side for a slash.


I clearly said "movement speed". Your scan is an example of reflexes/reaction speed after teleporting into place with Shambles.



Dr. White said:


> None of these people are on his reaction tier though. That's what you aren't understanding. Law hasn't been using COO for most of his fights, I don't know why you would think they'd even be close.


Law would need speed greater than what he's shown to handle those two fighters at once. Being fast enough to bend and block against some of the blades won't cut it. If Law was locking swords with Zoro in front of Ryuuma, he's not just going to blitz him and cut him down from behind. The speed of his footwork just isn't there.



Dr. White said:


> do you think Zoro and Ryuuma would get no diffed by dofla without Haki?


>_> Why wouldn't they? DD doesn't need haki to outmaneuver them the same way he's done so to Sanji/Luffy and cut them to pieces. Nevermind Parasite.



Dr. White said:


> Trebol is still a Mid High Tier, which showcased amazing reactions. He stared Law in the face before Law, cut him up from a sitting down position. How are you gonna say that requires no swordsmanship skill?
> 
> Law got multiple slashes at Smoker within his room, and he was using DF more so than his swordsmanship.


-You can't just use tiers to give Trebol attributes he hasn't been shown to have. When have we seen him block _anything_? Where are the panels of him evading slashes? Even Usopp cut Trebol up. He's confident in his ability to reform.
-Law didn't _land_ any slashes on Smoker though. 



Dr. White said:


> Vergo did the wind up vs Smoker. Vs Law he was banging it on the ground akin to a batter warming up before a strike. Then he got beat to the punch by Law.
> 
> Zoro engages, Law. Who parries and then outreacts Zoro and cuts him in half.


-Vergo's arms were far over his head, definitely higher up than they would be for a normal bamboo-whack, as the bamboo was behind Vergo's back.
-So Law blocks all the swords and the energy thrust from behind all at once with his incredible omnidirectional blade. Or some Hyuuga-like whirl, I presume.



Dr. White said:


> why are you assuming that:
> A.) Zoro will got Asura before he gets cut down.
> B.) That Zoro can sustain Ashura for more than 1 strike?



Zoro has only used Asura when he was in a heavily injured barely-functioning state against the Pacifista and after he had been drained and bloodied by the entirety of the Kaku fight. We have nothing to suggest Asura cannot be sustained by a healthy Zoro; Zoro was struggling to even use pound canons on the Pacifista and against Kaku, he didn't need to keep the form since his strikes all landed.

If Zoro, who generally can tell when someone is a big fish, isn't astute enough to bust out Asura against Law then sure, Law would win. And still fall to Cavendish.



Dr. White said:


> Why the hell do you think that Haki is the only thing people trained?


Haven't stated it to have been, lawl. However haki is pretty much what creates the chasm between pre and post skip. Yes, physical attributes have shot up, but it's haki that provides the greatest boost. Remove haki and DFs and pre-skip people can provide post-skip ones trouble.



Dr. White said:


> You are making a claim that he did with no visual indicators from Oda that such a thing occured. Why would Oda then highlight Law blocking himself with Black armaments?


-There were no visual indicators of haki being used when DD blocked Sanji or when Luffy (almost) blocked Hody but we know haki was in fact in play.
-Because Hardening >> normal COA as a defense, and that has been consistently supported as post-skip goes on. Law would be stupid to try to block strings with only his flesh without using the greatest defense he has. 



Dr. White said:


> Prove that Law's mountain cutter is his best move. It's his most destructive move so far but prove Law couldn't do more.
> By that logic Luffy has gone all out as well. Also his fight with DD doesn't count as Law's potential. He was low on DF ability from PH and that was before his fight with Dofla/Fuji.


-There's nothing indicating Law was saving some super special greater attack while fighting DD all this time when he likely understands he can die very easily/swiftly and would want to weaken DD as much as possible before going down.
-EGG very easily could be Luffy's best move, lawl. The thing with Luffy is that he hasn't been serious and focused; ex. he hasn't even stayed in G2, he just pops in for single strikes.
-Lacking in full *stamina* only translates into how freely Law could spam moves. The moves/abilities themselves weren't lessened in any way.



Dr. White said:


> Law has been showing he can physically keep up and fight Dofla, something Luffy as of yet cannot do, and Sanji failed at to boot.


Law and Luffy's engagements with DD have been different. DD hasn't tried to consistently bear-swipe Luffy to death so we don't know if Luffy can similarly defend and get off 1 counter.



Dr. White said:


> Ok so then a severly drained Law, whose reactions, movements, and room ability is drained, is not something indicative of his full potential. The fact that he's showing Luffy up in such a state should be speaking volumes to you.


Bloodied or not, a durability-negating slash retains all its worth, Mes is still an organ-snatcher, and his teleportation is still flat-out teleportation. Law isn't someone whose abilities suffer from him being injured, he'll simply be able to use them less but there shouldn't be any difference between a mountain-cutter from Law now and the mountain cutter on PH despite him bleeding out currently.



Dr. White said:


> Yeah because let's forget that he hasn't been 100% since PH, fought Dofla multiple times, and survived town busting attacsks from Dofla, and Fujitora at once, prior to being in this fight with Luffy, in which he's done the heavy lifting.
> 
> Yeah, I knew you were trouble when you walked in.


-Law had time to recover from earlier. If Sanji's broken leg can just disappear in under 24hours, the bulk of Law's fatigue can as well. Oda is hardly good about properly factoring in prior exertion/injuries into later fights. Looking at Law you wouldn't think he'd been shot and impaled multiple times.
-Taylor Swift lyrics offend my noble sensibilities.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

Datassassin said:


> -Lower-end of mid diff, and I wouldn't categorize it as legit pressuring since Zoro could come away with no injuries.
> -Luffy's physical strength >>>>>> Law's. His speed without G2 should also still be superior. Luffy has great COO, is a close-quarters specialist to begin with, and it's unlikely Law has better COA than the guy who uses it all the time.


Zoro would defintely get injured. Luffy's Haki would do some damage on Zoro and as you said he's likely still faster in base. Luffy was defeating guys like Croc and Enel with his base moveset, don't forget. Zoro wins Mid diff at best with a couple injuries.



> I clearly said "movement speed". Your scan is an example of reflexes/reaction speed after teleporting into place with Shambles.


I clearly explained the scan I showed was not shambles. The hazy lines you see in Law's place are not indicative of shambles. Go look at every shambles Law has ever done, it's either smoke from the displacement or a small attention bubble indicating the switch.

Law clearly speeded out of the way there. 




> Law would need speed greater than what he's shown to handle those two fighters at once. Being fast enough to bend and block against some of the blades won't cut it.


What speed feats do Zoro and Ryuuma have that pit them on high tier level  




> If Law was locking swords with Zoro in front of Ryuuma, he's not just going to blitz him and cut him down from behind. The speed of his footwork just isn't there.


This is complete BS. Law is physically stronger, faster, and more reactive than both of them. He isn't going to be clashing with Zoro like he would Dofla because Dofla is someone that is much more speedier, stronger, and dluent in combat. (see him snuffing Luffy in the face, lol dodging Sanji, and later kciking through Luffy's haki guard.)

Law's attack speed has always been shown to be extremely fast despite him using a Nodachi. Zoro and Ryuuma literally get cut to pieces. It's not that hard to understand.




> >_> Why wouldn't they? DD doesn't need haki to outmaneuver them the same way he's done so to Sanji/Luffy and cut them to pieces. Nevermind Parasite.


Ok. So if someone who could no diff both of them despite their swordsmanship due to his stats and skill with strings, why the fuck would Law, someone who could blocks his attacks on multiple occassions and land a hit on Dofla, struggle to do so?




> -You can't just use tiers to give Trebol attributes he hasn't been shown to have.


Bullshit you can't. It's called powerscaling.

We have never seen WB use force to split a continent in half. Yet do you think a Haki punch from WB would have less an impact that Don Chinjao?

Do you think any of the admirals would struggle to pull of DC feats using Haki that say Sabo or Chinjao have demonstrated?

So yeah get that B.S out of here.



> When have we seen him block _anything_? Where are the panels of him evading slashes? Even Usopp cut Trebol up. He's confident in his ability to reform.


-He got specific highlights on his reaction speed, hence Robin's concern. Law cut him before he could attempt to dodge.

Trebol knows how dangerous Law is. Don't compare the situation with fucking Usopp (who snuck back) to mid combat Law. that's just dishonest.

The point is he easily decimated Trebol, after setting up Luffy's hit on dofla.




> -Law didn't _land_ any slashes on Smoker though.


Because Smoker is a High Tier with Haki, great speed/Maneuverability, reactions on Law's tier and a sea stone Jutte to block with.

None of which Ryuuma or pre skip zoro have.



> -Vergo's arms were far over his head, definitely higher up than they would be for a normal bamboo-whack, as the bamboo was behind Vergo's back.


Lol what? He was clearly trying to thrust downwards at Law in his best fucking form. also if you actually read the panel, you will see the bottom 1/3 of Vergo's bamboo stick is cut indicating he was actively trying to hit Law and pretty close. Law cut through his stick then his abdomen, causing Vergo to fall forward, which is why it looks like Vergo tried to tank the attack then strike Law. None of which actually happened.



> -So Law blocks all the swords and the energy thrust from behind all at once with his incredible omnidirectional blade. Or some Hyuuga-like whirl, I presume.


Law easily speeds around these mid tiers who would get low - Mid diffed by Pacifista still, and beats their swordsmanship with his superior base stats. 

Implying you need an omnidirectional blade to stop attacks from different angles. I already showed you Law responding to Smoker twice attempting that, with much better speed and CqC viability than Pre Zoro or Ryuuma could ever dream of.

Also > Implying that they can outmaneuver Law.





> Zoro has only used Asura when he was in a heavily injured barely-functioning state against the Pacifista and after he had been drained and bloodied by the entirety of the Kaku fight.


Lol get the fuck out of here. 

Zoro got reduced to literal shreds against Mr. 1 and couldn't put a dent on him. After an extreme diff fight, Zoro transcended himself and broke through steel. By your logic that makes zero sense as his attacks should have been much stronger earlier.

Kaku gave Zoro a a less difficult fight and was dissipating all his attacks with his own. Unless you are suggestting the Zoro feat vs Kaku was signfigantly hindered in some way, which is ridiculous to suggest as that would mean 1/3 Asura >>>>> Amendachi >> Shi shi Son Son.



> We have nothing to suggest Asura cannot be sustained by a healthy Zoro;


So you don't understand the burden of proof?

He hasn't done it on panel. Nothing has indicated he can do so. You have to prove your claim that he can.



> Zoro was struggling to even use pound canons on the Pacifista and against Kaku, he didn't need to keep the form since his strikes all landed.


Prove he can sustain it longer.



> If Zoro, who generally can tell when someone is a big fish, isn't astute enough to bust out Asura against Law then sure, Law would win. And still fall to Cavendish.


Like when Zoro pulled his big guns out against a steel Man? Or like when Zoro took out the big guns to fight Mihawk? the only time he immediately went to his top tier moves was after already engaging Kuma, and having Luffy's life be on the line.




> Haven't stated it to have been, lawl. However haki is pretty much what creates the chasm between pre and post skip. Yes, physical attributes have shot up, but it's haki that provides the greatest boost. Remove haki and DFs and pre-skip people can provide post-skip ones trouble.


No they can't. Nothing suggest this in the slightest.

Half of the strawhats don't even have Haki, and are still much much better than their pre skip incantations. Haki was big part of growing in the new world, but obviously not all that mattered. Haki is an autowin either lol. 

-Zoro trained specifically on swordsmanship with the worlds best, sure he learned Haki, but that wasn't the basis of his training. It was only with Luffy that that was the top priority. 




> -There were no visual indicators of haki being used when DD blocked Sanji or when Luffy (almost) blocked Hody but we know haki was in fact in play.


What are you talking about lol?

Dofla blocked Sanji with his foot, with no indication he was using Haki. Neither was their indication from Sanji. Oda already displayed dofla using his Jacket with hardening, and hardening his foot. Two things notably absent from his clash with Sanji. You have to prove Haki was in play, not just assume it off of your subjective interpretation.

Even when hardening specifically isn't in play we get visual indicators such as Vergo and Sanji clashing and us seeing Energy (akin to electricity) and a coating around vergo's foot.




> -Because Hardening >> normal COA as a defense, and that has been consistently supported as post-skip goes on. Law would be stupid to try to block strings with only his flesh without using the greatest defense he has.


Okay and as I showed above we get indication as to when it's being used. You're simply assuming it's always being used which nothing really supports.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

> -There's nothing indicating Law was saving some super special greater attack while fighting DD all this time when he likely understands he can die very easily/swiftly and would want to weaken DD as much as possible before going down.


This doesn't prove Law went all out vs Vergo.



> -EGG very easily could be Luffy's best move, lawl. The thing with Luffy is that he hasn't been serious and focused; ex. he hasn't even stayed in G2, he just pops in for single strikes.


Why is that indication Luffy hasn't been focused? 
 (this is even before  that he would whoop mingo's ass)

He has definetly been focused multiple times this arc, including his latest ass whooping from Dofla.



> -Lacking in full *stamina* only translates into how freely Law could spam moves. The moves/abilities themselves weren't lessened in any way.


No. You are Wrong. Law's Room potency dwindles everytime he uses it. This is why he didn't even want to use it for something as trivial as killing fish real quick and instead unbound Caeser to do it. Then he unexpectedly fought a fucking admiral and Shichi. Then a Shichi alone. 

Law is not only lacking in just physical stamina. He's lacking in legitimate body stamina too boot.

So not only is Law's ability to use Room (and therefore his spatial manipulation) compromised every time he uses it, but Law is actively not physically at his best from ya know, fighting admirals and shit.




> Law and Luffy's engagements with DD have been different. DD hasn't tried to consistently bear-swipe Luffy to death so we don't know if Luffy can similarly defend and get off 1 counter.


What?
So let me get this straight.

Law (tired and drained) successfully pressures dofla with his fruit multiple times (cut his hand, used palace to pressure him), stops all of his attempts to hurt him (prior to Jigsaw string), and then lands an attack by himself.

Luffy: engages him twice (relatively fresh from fighting Caeser at PH, and Flathead Chin in DR) and twice not only gets hit by dofla, but his clone to boot. Luffy gets literally stomped into a basement to fight a clone and Bellamy.

Yet you're giving Luffy the benefit of the doubt, and claiming we don't know how well he could perform in a similar situation.






> Bloodied or not, a durability-negating slash retains all its worth, Mes is still an organ-snatcher, and his teleportation is still flat-out teleportation. Law isn't someone whose abilities suffer from him being injured, he'll simply be able to use them less but there shouldn't be any difference between a mountain-cutter from Law now and the mountain cutter on PH despite him bleeding out currently.


His ability to form Room and his ability to use his speed and reactions to their fullest has been compomised this whole arc. His DF drain being since PH and his actual stamina being lessened by multiple meteors/multiple attacks from doflamingo.

Aren't you the dude who a couple paragrpahs up was saying something about Zoro's ability to use his moves being comprimised against Kaku 




> -Law had time to recover from earlier.


-No he fucking didn't. Law was unconscious in Dofla's palace, and he literally fought Fujitora like an hour ago in story time. He literally just ripped the fucking bullets from his body. Nothing Oda has done suggest LAw got restored. He conserved a bit of DF energy from resting, and that was it.



> If Sanji's broken leg can just disappear in under 24hours,


Sanji got injured last arc. Not only did he heal himself with his special food, but sailing from island to island takes a couple of days.

Law got injured a fucking hour ago in story time, whilst facing meteors and Doflamingo. Not really comparable to a small fracture from vergo 


It's like you don't know how to form an honest comparison between things.




> the bulk of Law's fatigue can as well.


equivocation Fallacy.



> Oda is hardly good about properly factoring in prior exertion/injuries into later fights. Looking at Law you wouldn't think he'd been shot and impaled multiple times.


- Oda has made it a point multiple times that Law is no where near his fucking best. 

-Law mentions he doesn't wanna fight fight fish because of strain from PH.
-Law mentions to Luffy after he warps that each usage cost alot of energy.
-Law pulls bullets out of himself minutes before engaing doflamingo.

Also Law looks fine you say? Let me walk you through how Oda has portrayed Law.

 Law getting tossed around, with Doflamingo commenting on the non mercy from Fuji





- has passed since he has last been injured.





There's more if you'd like.


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## MrWano (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> -Law mentions he doesn't wanna fight fight fish because of strain from PH.



When did he say this?

Do you mean this : 

Law: My ability takes a hefty toll on my stamina the more I use it...!! // I need to stay at my best in preparation for the way back. / You get it?! // We have to save every ounce of strength we can!!! // This is Doflamingo we're dealing with...!!!

He claims that he needs every bit of strength he can save, that's all there is to it. Nowhere does he say that he still feels the effect of his PH gauntlet.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

MrWano said:


> When did he say this?


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

MrWano said:


> When did he say this?
> 
> Do you mean this :
> 
> ...



Law using his DF Drains him. Law used it a ton during PH. Like alot.

Then Kishi shows us him complaining about stamina at DR. Never does he mention it, until after his mountain buster. Law doesn't fight from PH to DR. So I inferred that he didn't wanna use his powers because he was still low. 

Granted looking at Cnet's translation it could very well be that he was trying to save Stamina for his fight with dofla. But that doesn't change that his DR feats no doubt took alot out of him (vs Fuji and Dofla.)

So I'll concede half that argument because there is no direct proof Law was affected from PH, as I thought from different scans I had seen.


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## MrWano (Jan 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Law using his DF Drains him. Law used it a ton during PH. Like alot.
> 
> Then Kishi shows us him complaining about stamina at DR. Never does he mention it, until after his mountain buster. Law doesn't fight from PH to DR. So I inferred that he didn't wanna use his powers because he was still low.
> 
> ...



Kishi? 

Ah, I see what you mean. I think that he was never in any danger of running out of stamina on PH, while he thought that in a fight with Doffy, he might. Then there's the option of Oda wanting to keep the "limitations" of his fruit a mystery for a while. That's just a theory though.

I think that Sanji's meal on PH, another meal on the Sunny and then a nights rest on the Sunny should have brought Law to full stamina again, and that he simply wanted to save everything for Doffy.

I absolutely agree that the fight vs Doffy/Fuji took a lot out of him. I actually think that fight gets downplayed more times than not. With the exception of Smoker, Law has either been at a disadvantage or handicaped in every major fight post-ts. There's a reason for this. Went on a tangent, but whatever.

That's seem reasonable


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2015)

MrWano said:


> Kishi?


Marijuana is a hell of a drug ck



> Ah, I see what you mean. I think that he was never in any danger of running out of stamina on PH, while he thought that in a fight with Doffy, he might. Then there's the option of Oda wanting to keep the "limitations" of his fruit a mystery for a while. That's just a theory though.


I think PH took alot out of him (fought Smoker, Tashigi, and G-5, Switched SH's, Beat Scotch, Foguth Vergo/destroyed Lab) and he was trying to save his energy.

I mean if Law was willing to use it on the Toy Soldiers (with stronger people around him ala Cav, Luffy and Kyros) than one would think he'd use it on the Fish. 



> I think that Sanji's meal on PH, another meal on the Sunny and then a nights rest on the Sunny should have brought Law to full stamina again, and that he simply wanted to save everything for Doffy.


I would agree, but Law's DF drain doesn't seem like it has to do with his body. More so it's a special drain that has it's own refractory period. So while Sanji's food healed his injuries and fatigue from fighting (via nutrition) it didn't aid with his DF drain. But yeah Idk it's a bit weird as of now.
[/QUOTE]


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 19, 2015)

Datassassin just went full retard.

You should never go full retard.


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## Coruscation (Jan 20, 2015)

If he can use Radio Knife that's basically the same thing as being able to use his standard cutting power. Unless I'm misunderstanding what RK is. Because I thought it was just a normal Ope Ope slash with the added electrical charge temporarily disabling the opponent's ability to reassemble themselves by basically paralyzing them. Hence why Trebol thought that he wouldn't be affected much by a normal Ope Ope cut, due to being a Logia.

And if he can use his normal slashing power, I don't imagine anyone except Zoro has a chance of resisting it with Haki. Diamante's COA clearly won't be on Vergo's level and even Vergo couldn't resist. It's a big stretch to guess that even Zoro as a COA specialist could when Vergo has been a hardcore specialist in the same Haki for over a decade. Though without teleportation and other debilitating and controlling abilities, at least Diamante and Zoro should be able to avoid getting hit by a clean slash. Diamante's flag powers can act as a pseudo Kami-E to let him dodge Injection Shot as well. That said, with the constant threat of the slash plus the fact that Injection Shot might be able to pierce their defenses, hard to say as we don't know its cap, they could still lose. I think Zoro would win more often than not, but the Seats are looking to be a bit below the likes of Zoro so Diamante might not cut it in the end.

Contrary to the intention of the thread, I don't really feel that allowing Law access to Radio Knife and Injection Shot manages to accurately represent his swordsmanship skills/non-DF stats. Those two moves alone are a huge boon to have on his side due to how irresistible his Ope spatial manipulation in the form of cutting is. If it weren't for them I'd feel confident he loses to both Zoro and Diamante, though he would be able to beat the rest.


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## Dr. White (Jan 20, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Contrary to the intention of the thread, I don't really feel that allowing Law access to Radio Knife and Injection Shot manages to accurately represent his swordsmanship skills/non-DF stats. Those two moves alone are a huge boon to have on his side due to how irresistible his Ope spatial manipulation in the form of cutting is. If it weren't for them I'd feel confident he loses to both Zoro and Diamante, though he would be able to beat the rest.



I assume Radio Knife would just be a really hot Knife Slash that cauterizes. For the sake of this thread assume there is no spatial manipulation involved. Aslo Injection Shot is a regular stab, as far as we know of now, so that's why I added it.


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