# Apollo vs Saturn (Saint Seiya, Ω)



## Xeogran (Jul 11, 2015)

Both are above Hades. Which one is the current strongest seen entity who's not named Saga in the SS verse so far?

Anything Goes scenario.


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## Yagami1211 (Jul 11, 2015)

Apollo barely appears 2 minutes in the Tenkai movie. Does he haves any notable feat ?

Unless there is something I'm not aware of.


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## Xeogran (Jul 11, 2015)

Athena was afraid to face him, and he wasn't even wearing his cloth.
 So there's that.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 11, 2015)

yeah appolo has an absurd hype
but hey absu also fucked up athena and he didn't even need to show up
and saturn is more than likely above him


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 11, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> full-power Subaru is likely > Pallas since the Eternal Dance was emitting a stronger cosmo than the time Pallas wielded it when it was reacting to Subaru's awakening





Crimson Dragoon said:


> I made some speculations on Subaru's (who's Saturn in kid form) full power
> 
> [3/31/2015 10:31:05 PM] Crimson Dragoon: also, I just realized that the gap between Kid Saturn and adult Pallas might be huge as fuck
> [3/31/2015 10:33:17 PM] Crimson Dragoon: >Aegir couldn't get the most out of Cataclysm Slash
> ...



just thought I'd post those again


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## Imperator100 (Jul 11, 2015)

Saturn probably wins.


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

Yagami1211 said:


> Apollo barely appears 2 minutes in the Tenkai movie. Does he haves any notable feat ?
> 
> Unless there is something I'm not aware of.



Besides the aforementioned fact Athena didn't feel she could face her older brother, even with the God-Slayer post-Hades arc Seiya who had managed to damage Hades' surplice with his Gold Cloth, he took a punch from a potentially stronger Seiya unflinching without his own God Cloth, and reset the entire universe with a hand wave.

Of course Omega while following the anime Toei Saint Seiya "canon"/continuity ignores the Tenkai-Hen/Chapter Overture movie and Next Dimension, its harder to scale Saturn vs Apollo.

Apollo is > Hades.

Saturn was > Pallas or Athena even together.

So the safest bet is Apollo takes this with some effort.


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## Sablés (Jul 11, 2015)

Fang said:


> Besides the aforementioned fact Athena didn't feel she could face her older brother, even with the God-Slayer post-Hades arc Seiya who had managed to damage Hades' surplice with his Gold Cloth, he took a punch from a potentially stronger Seiya unflinching without his own God Cloth, and reset the entire universe with a hand wave.
> 
> Of course Omega while following the anime Toei Saint Seiya "canon"/continuity ignores the Tenkai-Hen/Chapter Overture movie and Next Dimension, its harder to scale Saturn vs Apollo.
> 
> ...



Was Seiya wearing his God-Cloth when Apollo tanked whatever he dished out?

Saturn's also more than likely above Hades as well.


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Was Seiya wearing his God-Cloth when Apollo tanked whatever he dished out?
> 
> Saturn's also more than likely above Hades as well.



[YOUTUBE]MzV_K2oILR8[/YOUTUBE]


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## Extravlad (Jul 11, 2015)

Omega Seiya >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hades Arc Seiya or Tenkai Movie Seiya.

Saturn >>>>>>>>> Omega Seiya.

Saturn most likely curbstomps.


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

I like how you have no idea what you are talking about

How does God-Gold Cloth Seiya losing to Saturn prove Saturn > Apollo?


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## Imperator100 (Jul 11, 2015)

Looking over the evidence again, I believe I was mistaken before. Apollo has better showings and probably wins.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 11, 2015)

Fang said:


> I like how you have no idea what you are talking about
> 
> How does God-Gold Cloth Seiya losing to Saturn prove Saturn > Apollo?


it means something because he casually defeated a stronger version of seiya
then again saturn was with his cloth appolo didn't need his


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 11, 2015)

well, being fair, Saturn powers up one more time after wrecking Seiya by fusing with the Eternal Dance


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## Extravlad (Jul 11, 2015)

> I like how you have no idea what you are talking about


I like how you let your bias and the fact that Omega is garbage influence your opinion on who wins this battle.



> How does God-Gold Cloth Seiya losing to Saturn prove Saturn > Apollo?


It definitely gives him the benefit of doubt, he proved he could curbstomps a God Cloth Seiya who was shown to be a shit ton stronger than the Seiya who fought in the Hades arc.

I should be the one asking this question actually.

How does Athena being afraid of Apollo proves that he can win vs Saturn?
Athena's saints at the time of Tenkai movie aren't even comparable to what they are in Omega, Apollo made joke out of them.


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> it means something because he casually defeated a stronger version of seiya
> then again saturn was with his cloth appolo didn't need his



He exerted effort against Seiya and Titan

It doesn't correlate to magically equating Saturn > Apollo, especially considering Apollo rebooted the universe while taking a punch from a stronger Seiya post-Hades fight to the face without wearing his Cloth

The same Apollo that Athena and Artemis were shitting themselves over as soon as he popped up



Extravlad said:


> I like how you let your bias and the fact that Omega is garbage influence your opinion on who wins this battle.



No, when did my post even say Omega was garbage? Most of us actually liked it but that is one stupid non-sequiter you made.



> It definitely gives him the benefit of doubt, he proved he could curbstomps a God Cloth Seiya who was shown to be a shit ton stronger than the Seiya who fought in the Hades arc.



Kuramada's continuity ! = Toei's own.

Seiya was stronger then Hades arc Seiya too, even without wearing his God Cloth, that doesn't relate to whatever degree you are implying that he magically is a lot stronger. Or are you going to tell me Titan is as strong or stronger then Hades and Apollo?



> How does Athena being afraid of Apollo proves that he can win vs Saturn?



How does a single adult Seiya with a God Cloth version of the Gold Cloth suddenly  rise in power over 5 over God Cloths and Athena's own Kamui?



> Athena's saints at the time of Tenkai movie aren't even comparable to what they are in Omega, Apollo made joke out of them.



So you are claiming Omega Seiya > 5 God Bronze Saints and Athena herself?

Wank.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 11, 2015)

Fang said:


> He exerted effort against Seiya and Titan



Titan was dispatched without effort, actually, and Seiya only when burning his cosmo to the max was able to get something resembling strain 

Saturn wrecked Titan with one shot IIRC, and Seiya's cloth was being shredded with casual swings of the Eternal Dance

max cosmo burning Seiya though managed to push through and shanked Saturn with the Golden Dagger 

so like I said, out of the two, only Seiya giving it his all can get Saturn to actually take notice


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Titan was dispatched without effort, actually, and Seiya only when burning his cosmo to the max was able to get something resembling strain
> 
> Saturn wrecked Titan with one shot IIRC, and Seiya's cloth was being shredded with casual swings of the Eternal Dance
> 
> ...



Titan's Chronotector still survived his attack relatively unscathed if I remember right

I still don't buy Omega Seiya > 5 Bronze God Cloths + Athena's own though


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 11, 2015)

Fang said:


> Titan's Chronotector still survived his attack relatively unscathed if I remember right



there was damage around the left shoulder area, but it was mostly in one piece, yeah



> I still don't buy Omega Seiya > 5 Bronze God Cloths + Athena's own though



well yeah, that's obviously pretty ridiculous


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> there was damage around the left shoulder area, but it was mostly in one piece, yeah
> 
> 
> 
> well yeah, that's obviously pretty ridiculous



Pretty much. Athena and Artemis were both stone dead with fear as shown as Apollo showed up. More to the fact, she even brings up to Seiya its impossible to fight him and its relatively only a short time that the 6 of them together combined to beat Hades and the Twin Gods.

It says a lot to me that Apollo in Kuramada's eyes is just THAT strong that he can sit there tanking hits from a Seiya whose weaker version managed to crack Hades surplice, unarmored without defending or even bothering to defend himself.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 11, 2015)

saturn is above hades because he was shattering the enterity of seiya gold god cloth without even moving himself
Hades actual attacks were just putting cracks and what not on the bronze god cloths
but yeah appolo is likely above saturn


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

You mean the same Hades with a single attack managed to damage and throw back 5 Bronze God Saints at the same time with zero effort? And the one time he focuses a proper attack he puts Seiya out of the fight?

Yeah.


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## Extravlad (Jul 11, 2015)

Wait how is Tenkai Seiya stronger than Hades arc Seiya??
I haven't seen the movie in a while but I remember Seiya not having his god cloth and struggling vs Icarus.

Hades arc Seiya pretty much fodderized Thanatos.


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

Because its stated his Cosmos is more powerful then Hades arc Seiya wearing his God Cloth? Duh.

And movie credits shows Seiya having a more complete version of the Pegasus Cloth then anything that came before it, once again unsubtly and implicitly showing Seiya was much stronger then his Hades arc version, which happened earlier.


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## Sablés (Jul 11, 2015)

Fang said:


> [YOUTUBE]MzV_K2oILR8[/YOUTUBE]



I'm clearly missing something here (probably because I can't read the translation) If Seiya isn't wearing his God Cloth, why are we bothering with mentioning Apollo tanking that hit? Bronzes aren't nearly as strong as they were in Elysium.

This doesn't prove that Apollo is stronger than Saturn either, the latter who absorbed the power of 2 universal Gods while being above them by himself prior.


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## Sablés (Jul 11, 2015)

Isn't it stated somewhere that the 3 strongest Olympians were Zeus Hades and Poseidon?


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## Fang (Jul 11, 2015)

Liquid said:


> I'm clearly missing something here (probably because I can't read the translation) If Seiya isn't wearing his God Cloth, why are we bothering with mentioning Apollo tanking that hit? Bronzes aren't nearly as strong as they were in Elysium.



His Cosmos is greater then it was with his God Cloth in the Hades Arc when he burned it, and he temporarily resisted Apollo rebooting the universe. At that instance, Seiya was stronger in Tenkai-Hen then he was with his God Cloth facing Hades.

So clothless Seiya at his best > God Cloth Hades arc Seiya by a huge margin.



> This doesn't prove that Apollo is stronger than Saturn either, the latter who absorbed the power of 2 universal Gods while being above them by himself prior.



It actually does.

Considering Apollo > Athena and Artemis and Athena whose fully aware of her and the Bronze Saints abilities with God Cloths, that's more impressive then a failure like Pallas. Also you are neglecting to remember the fact Pallas was being drained by Saturn with his word the entire time in S2, and over a duration of a long period of time before he got his strength back and overpowered her and Athena who fought each other earlier.



Liquid said:


> Isn't it stated somewhere that the 3 strongest Olympians were Zeus Hades and Poseidon?



No. And it was said that Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus were "equal". But this is a crock of shit because Kuramada has repeatedly said the same about all the Gold Saints being equal in power to each other despite the disparity in their actual showings facing each other or databook entries.

Poseidon dropped in power with the loss of his original body.
Athena is scared shit-less of the mere presence of Apollo even without his Kamui while she showed none of that weeks earlier with Hades.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> Also you are neglecting to remember the fact Pallas was being drained by Saturn with his word the entire time in S2



I think you mean Athena, and Pallas was getting her cosmo anyway, so Saturn still pretty much got Athena's and Pallas's cosmos stacked onto his own anyhow


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Yeah but my point was more or less it was an active drain the entire time of S2 which takes place over what? Several days? A couple weeks? Neither of them were fresh when they faced him and Athena of course was being actively drained.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 12, 2015)

well, what I'm saying is he snacked on the vast bulk of both their cosmos and would be hilariously beyond both of them even if they were at full strength with their gear, which I think we both agree on 

and as I said earlier, I consider an awakened Subaru to be superior to Pallas, possibly by a gross amount


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## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> His Cosmos is greater then it was with his God Cloth in the Hades Arc when he burned it, and *he temporarily resisted Apollo rebooting the universe*. At that instance, Seiya was stronger in Tenkai-Hen then he was with his God Cloth facing Hades.
> 
> So clothless Seiya at his best > God Cloth Hades arc Seiya by a huge margin.



I watched the vid you linked in subs and it isn't stated that Seiya's more powerful than he was in Hades arc. Why does Seiya temporarily halting Apollo's attack mean he's stronger than his God Cloth forms? This at the very least means his cosmo is higher than it was without it in Hades arc where he was less than dirt compared to shit Gods like Thanatos however the comparison stops there when God Cloth Seiya could actually wound Hades when raising his cosmo to the max, who in turn is a good deal more than just  Universal.

Also, Seiya resisting the reboot is kind of counter-intuitive no? That pretty much means in that state, Seiya was powerful enough to momentarily stop Apollo's _active _ efforts.



> It actually does.
> 
> Considering Apollo > Athena and Artemis and Athena  whose fully aware of her and the Bronze Saints abilities with God Cloths, that's more impressive then a failure like Pallas. Also you are neglecting to remember the fact Pallas was being drained by Saturn with his word the entire time in S2, and over a duration of a long period of time before he got his strength back and overpowered her and Athena who fought each other earlier.



Pallas is a weakling but she's at least more powerful than the 4HK who stand on the threshold of Universals anyway. Athena even while drained was stronger than Pallas and Saturn gains all of their power stacked into his own. As CD already explained, Subaru is stronger than Pallas in the first place. 

Basically we're stuck with a minimum of feats.

Saturn/Apollo/Hades >>> Athena + Artemis/Pallas

and no upper limit beyond Hades being surpassed by Athena + 4 God Saints



> No. And it was said that Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus were "equal". But this is a crock of shit because Kuramada has repeatedly said the same about all the Gold Saints being equal in power to each other despite the disparity in their actual showings facing each other or databook entries.



True, in fact  I remember he straight up retconned that with ND where Poseidon and Hades were stated equal and second to Zeus.  That question was more for posterity's sake. If Seiya's more powerful in overture then feats would overrule character statements anyway so this is kind of irrelevant.




> Athena is scared shit-less of the mere presence of Apollo even without his Kamui while she showed none of that weeks earlier with Hades.



She said her (and Seiya) had no chance of beating Apollo initially then has no problem challenging him moments later. I don't consider Saori's reactions consistent here. When there's no other option, she'll fight if the situation demands it and Hades had long since cemented his antagonism. Even with feats, Hades kind of shits on  her while spending energy maintaining his own universe.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 12, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Basically we're stuck with a minimum of feats.
> 
> Saturn/Apollo/Hades >>> Athena + Artemis/Pallas
> 
> and no upper limit beyond Hades being surpassed by Athena + 4 God Saints



the way I look at things regarding Saturn vs Hades in terms of sheer cosmo is that Saturn before merging with the Eternal Dance should be on par with Hades, maybe slightly above at most 

basically, it's taking out large chunks of a Gold God Cloth with just the cosmo emitted from slashing with the Eternal Dance versus sending two God Cloth wearing Saints and later on all five flying back just by waving a sword around

rough parity without a sizable difference in power, IMO 

after merging with his weapon, I'd say Saturn > Hades by a solid amount


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## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> the way I look at things regarding Saturn vs Hades in terms of sheer cosmo is that Saturn before merging with the Eternal Dance should be on par with Hades, maybe slightly above at most
> 
> basically, it's taking out large chunks of a Gold God Cloth with just the cosmo emitted from slashing with the Eternal Dance versus sending two God Cloth wearing Saints and later on all five flying back just by waving a sword around
> 
> ...



Usually, that'd be an incontestable argument (and I agree Saturn's a good deal stronger too) though I think we've had this disagreement of examples before.

Omega cloths in general are fucking glass m8. They're damaged by attacks that shouldn't nearly pack that kind of power. If we used this logic there'd be no question that Saturn's stronger than the Olympians when Abzu can shatter Athena's Kamui while not even being in the same dimension and the former is ludicrously more powerful considering what it took to beat them respectively 

EDIT: Scratch that.Saturn actually won that fight.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 12, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Usually, that'd be an incontestable argument (and I agree Saturn's a good deal stronger too) though I think we've had this disagreement of examples before.
> 
> Omega cloths in general are fucking glass m8. They're damaged by attacks that shouldn't nearly pack that kind of power. If we used this logic there'd be no question that Saturn's stronger than the Olympians when Abzu can shatter Athena's Kamui while not even being in the same dimension and the former is ludicrously more powerful considering what it took to beat them respectively



the higher tier cloths in Omega only really get damaged by other stupidly powerful things from what I remember 

Gold Cloths in Omega only get cracked by either Bronzes burning their cosmo to the limit and beyond, which was also a thing in the original series, or by other Gold Saints 

also, I found Abzu's defeat, while awesome like that entire ep is, to have a fair amount of PIS 

a broken piece of Aria's staff somehow became relevant when the whole thing didn't stop Mars and it also didn't stop Kougabzu


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> well, what I'm saying is he snacked on the vast bulk of both their cosmos and would be hilariously beyond both of them even if they were at full strength with their gear, which I think we both agree on
> 
> and as I said earlier, I consider an awakened Subaru to be superior to Pallas, possibly by a gross amount



Yes, but he never faced a fresh Athena or Pallas in the first place.



Liquid said:


> I watched the vid you linked in subs and it isn't stated that Seiya's more powerful than he was in Hades arc. Why does Seiya temporarily halting Apollo's attack mean he's stronger than his God Cloth forms?



Seiya actively trying to resist and partially succeeding against a casual attack from Apollo is more impressive then being fly-swatted by two attacks from a serious Hades without his God Cloth.



> This at the very least means his cosmo is higher than it was without it in Hades arc where he was less than dirt compared to shit Gods like Thanatos however the comparison stops there when God Cloth Seiya could actually wound Hades when raising his cosmo to the max



Seiya never wounded Hades. He did minor damage to a small part of Hades' surplice, and nothing more. Period. Its also worth noting that once Seiya had his God Cloth, he could one-shot Thanatos, while it took the other God Cloth Bronze Saints together to beat Hypnos.



> Also, Seiya resisting the reboot is kind of counter-intuitive no? That pretty much means in that state, Seiya was powerful enough to momentarily stop Apollo's _active _ efforts.



Apollo wasn't actively doing to Seiya specifically attack wise. Seiya attacked him, he took it, and Saori/Athena is the one freaking out. When Apollo does his hand wave,  he's still being clearly affected. 

This all indicates that Seiya even without his God Cloth > Hades arc God Cloth Seiya. He's grown THAT much in that time period.



> Pallas is a weakling but she's at least more powerful than the 4HK who stand on the threshold of Universals anyway. Athena even while drained was stronger than Pallas and Saturn gains all of their power stacked into his own. As CD already explained, Subaru is stronger than Pallas in the first place.



Pallas is comparable to Athena. So is Artemis, in fact Artemis is probably as strong or stronger then her kid sister. Meanwhile again, both were dead scared of Apollo.



> Basically we're stuck with a minimum of feats.
> 
> Saturn/Apollo/Hades >>> Athena + Artemis/Pallas
> 
> and no upper limit beyond Hades being surpassed by Athena + 4 God Saints



I don't know where this came from. Hades was dominating all five Bronze Saints with their God Cloths. Athena literally wins by blocking an attack with her Aegis shield and then getting a lucky hit with her staff which inhabitated by the LITERAL Goddess of Victory.

Apollo strolls in meanwhile with no God Cloth/Kamui, takes a punch and several attacks from an enraged Seiya, and reboots the universe while the same Athena knows fighting him is fruitless unlike facing Hades.



> True, in fact  I remember he straight up retconned that with ND where Poseidon and Hades were stated equal and second to Zeus.  That question was more for posterity's sake. If Seiya's more powerful in overture then feats would overrule character statements anyway so this is kind of irrelevant.



^ (use bro), Saint Seiya is riddled with plot-holes, inconsistencies and "retcons". Like I said, in terms of what Kuramada says, its not really worth much. Like ignoring Saga being possessed by a God with the same characteristics and mannerisms associated with Shun's possession by Hades but then just later saying, LOL BIPOLARISM.




> She said her (and Seiya) had no chance of beating Apollo initially then has no problem challenging him moments later. I don't consider Saori's reactions consistent here. When there's no other option, she'll fight if the situation demands it and Hades had long since cemented his antagonism. Even with feats, Hades kind of shits on  her while spending energy maintaining his own universe.



She did not challenge Apollo to a fight even after she changed her mind. She was talking philosophically about protecting humans and being the guardian of humanity. Her reaction is plenty consistent, in fact it explains why Apollo decided to spare her and Seiya and their friends in the end.

Comparing Hades vs Apollo is unique only in the fact that Apollo is fully aware of what Athena and the Bronze Saints did and still faces them without his God Cloth, and ends everything with a hand gesture.

Even when Saturn faced Omega God-Gold Cloth Seiya, he went full out to put Seiya down. Apollo didn't have to bother with that.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> Yes, but he never faced a fresh Athena or Pallas in the first place.



well, we're in agreement there


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## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> the higher tier cloths in Omega only really get damaged by other stupidly powerful things from what I remember
> 
> Gold Cloths in Omega were only really damaged by Bronzes burning their cosmo to the limit and beyond, which was also a thing in the original series, and by other Gold Saints
> 
> ...




I dunno man, Gold Cloths in the original were durable enough to withstand AE.

Then motherfucking Aegir comes in with Cataclysm Slash and tears through Genbu's Libra like paper. Aegir is a scrub compared to Hyperion and _he _gets overpowered by AE.  _Then _ we have TItan literally fisting the Taurus cloth without using his own Chronotector. Of course,  Titan could just be that stupidly powerful but...

Abzu's loss was indeed bullshit but its pretty clear Kouga with -insert bs shounen power up here- was portrayed to be on his general level. The Omega cloths are the staple of that series so it stands to reason that Kouga's final power-up down the line would be notably more  powerful IMO.


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

The Gold Cloths never withstood AE's directly. Shaka was atomized by the AE from a weakened Saga, Shura, and Camus after he passed on the message he left for Athena and died, Cloth and all with him.

The Gold Cloths have issues with Absolute Zero. They are not withstanding the energies generated head on by a focused miniature Big Bang.

Also on the issue of Genbu vs Aegir, he was using the Heavenly Sword and Hyperion's power. And while AE damaged his sword, the Heavenly Kings are not exactly regular mortals and are God Cloth equivalents themselves with the the Four King's Chronotectors.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 12, 2015)

Liquid said:


> I dunno man, Gold Cloths in the original were durable enough to withstand AE.
> 
> Then motherfucking Aegir comes in with Cataclysm Slash and tears through Genbu's Libra like paper. Aegir is a scrub compared to Hyperion and _he _gets overpowered by AE.  _Then _ we have TItan literally fisting the Taurus cloth without using his own Chronotector. Of course,  Titan could just be that stupidly powerful but...



Next Dimension has Garuda Suikyo piercing through Taurus Ox's Gold Cloth with his icicles and I remember Pisces Cardinale piercing through a Gold Cloth as well with his rose

that kind of shit happens in the canon series too



> Abzu's loss was indeed bullshit but its pretty clear Kouga with -insert bs shounen power up here- was portrayed to be on his general level. The Omega cloths are the staple of that series so it stands to reason that Kouga's final power-up down the line would be notably more  powerful IMO.



Kouga was getting his ass kicked for most of the ep


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## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> The Gold Cloths never withstood AE's directly. Shaka was atomized by the AE from a weakened Saga, Shura, and Camus after he passed on the message he left for Athena and died, Cloth and all with him.



Unless Gold Cloths fix themselves, the Gold Cloth would still have taken the brunt of AE along with him. 

This also corroborates with the cloths taking the backlash from all 12 Gold Saints combined power required to destroy the wall.



> The Gold Cloths have issues with Absolute Zero. They are not withstanding the energies generated head on by a focused miniature Big Bang.



Absolute Zero is rarely ever treated in a consistent light in regards to pure energy. I wouldn't wager that Aurora Execution is in anyway comparable to something like Galaxian Explosion from Saga but Gold Cloths have tanked that too.



> Also on the issue of Genbu vs Aegir, he was using the Heavenly Sword and Hyperion's power. And while AE damaged his sword, the Heavenly Kings are not exactly regular mortals and are God Cloth equivalents themselves with the the Four King's Chronotectors.



Hyperion states that Cataclysm Slash is more powerful in his hands than it would be in Aegir's, which is fairly common sense and he's stronger than AE anyway. The sword however, isn't and that was mainly my point.


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## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Next Dimension has Garuda Suikyo piercing through Taurus Ox's Gold Cloth with his icicles and I remember Pisces Cardinale piercing through a Gold Cloth as well with his rose
> 
> that kind of shit happens in the canon series too



Fair enough. Where would Abzu rank then?


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Unless Gold Cloths fix themselves, the Gold Cloth would still have taken the brunt of AE along with him.



Shaka? Sure, he was at point blank and the target of the attack. But he didn't survive it, and his Cloth was destroyed along with him in the end after all things considered.



> This also corroborates with the cloths taking the backlash from all 12 Gold Saints combined power required to destroy the wall.



They didn't use an Athena Exclamation against the Wailing Wall. We generally have the average Gold Saint's durability around star to multi-star level. That's a far cry from tanking the backlash of an exploding minature Big Bang even when you add them all up.

All we know and saw was the living and dead Gold Saints (sans Kanon and Shion) concentrating their combined energies and making a hole in the Wailing Wall. With the living Gold Saints; Dohko, Aiolia, Mu, Milo, etc...dying from the backlash of energy.



> Absolute Zero is rarely ever treated in a consistent light in regards to pure energy. I wouldn't wager that Aurora Execution is in anyway comparable to something like Galaxian Explosion from Saga but Gold Cloths have tanked that too.



Your comparing two very different forms of energetic attacks. And for the record, Camus' mere glancing hits was freezing parts of Shaka's Virgo Gold Cloth.



> Hyperion states that Cataclysm Slash is more powerful in his hands than it would be in Aegir's, which is fairly common sense and he's stronger than AE anyway. The sword however, isn't.



How does this contradict anything I said? The entire fight between Aegir vs Genbu was largely Genbu vs Hyperion's sword, not Aegir. The sword possesses its own power and abilities that were amping and making Aegir a threat to Genbu.


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## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Gonna take care of this in one since I'm getting tired and incoherent 


Fang said:


> Shaka? Sure, he was at point blank and the target of the attack. But he didn't survive it, and his Cloth was destroyed along with him in the end after all things considered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) Issue of the cloth being destroyed. There is no record evidence of the Virgo Cloth  getting BTFO (only that Shaka took it with in) nor is there any precedent for Cloths being able to repair themselves (See Taurus) That was always Ikki's shit and Mu's territory. If AE had destroy the Virgo Cloth, Shaka wouldn't have gotten it back.

2)  Wailing Wall example was an incident of the GC tanking the combined cosmo of all 12 GS when AE can be powered by 1/3 of the number. More importantly, had Athena Exclamation been enough to accomplish the task of destroying the wall, they would only need 3 Gold Saints to do the job and the other 9 would help Seiya and the others rescue Athena, their main perogative. That all 12 were needed to be sacrificed in order to destroy the wall (putting them at a massive disadvantage down the road) is evidence that Athena Exclamation which at most would have only killed 3, while the others dipped with the bronzes wouldn't have cut it. The Gold Cloths withstood that energy and consequently AE should be no issue for them.

3) I wasn't disagreeing with you on Aegir, in fact, I already conceded that point to CD.  My reasoning relates back to the Gold Cloths tanking AE (we disagree but that's besides the point here) however Aegir is a weakling and all his feats of destroying a Gold Cloth come from the sword. The sword's power can be maximized when Hyperion is at the helm and yet it still pales before Athena Exclamation, the same technique that (again by my POV) can't destroy a Gold Cloth.

Essentially:

AE > Holy Sword > Gold Cloth Durability > AE

It doesn't make any goddamn sense, brah. 

Like I said before though, CD already pointed out these inconsistencies exist in the main storyline too so there we have it.




Fang said:


> Yes, but he never faced a fresh Athena or Pallas in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We're reaching some serious circular logic on the front.

You consider Apollo stronger than Hades because:

A) He shits on a stronger Seiya. 
B) Athena is scared shitless of him

I disagree on the first because you're using Seiya's feats of repelling Apollo to be evidence of how much stronger he is than Hades arc when the reasoning can simply be Apollo isn't as strong Hades. There's too little information to go around here. For one reason, why is Seiya stronger in the first place, he literally spent all his time strapped unconscious to a wheelchair. I don't consider momentarily stopping a Universal reboot out of reach for Hades arc Seiya either seeing as he hurt Hades, and while you may think this is insignificant, the story does not portray it that way. Everyone, including Hades himself was flipping out because of the damage he took, that makes it a big deal. As it should considering Hades is severely above the borderline Universal. A clothless Seiya being able to deter (not even stop) a Universal-Reboot should be par for the course later on. It doesn't mean that he's stronger than his God Cloth form, the two don't correlate at all.


The issue with Athena thinking they stood no chance against Apollo is equally as trivial because the two of them weren't exactly a major problem for Hades either , who swatted away her Aegis and was about to finish her off before Seiya got a lucky hit in. In Overture, Athena has neither her God Cloth, nor does Seiya (note: even if you think that Clothless Seiya is stronger here, he doesn't show it until he repels Apollo's reset  thus Athena wouldn't know about it either) and it stands to reason both Apollo would be above them even if they were at full strength really. Again, this only establishes a minimum of power i..e Hades/Apollo >>> Athena and Seiya doesn't say squat about how they compare to each other without circular reasoning on how strong Seiya is at this point. Not sure what you mean by philosophy though, she stands behind Seiya and outright says she'll fight Apollo if he tries to threaten humanity; that's what a guardian does after all. NOT sit on their ass when an even bigger asshole than Deathmask strolls in and wants to destroy what you're protecting.


Think there was more but that's a bit much of a tl;dr. Going to bed.


----------



## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Gonna take care of this in one since I'm getting tired and incoherent
> 
> 1) Issue of the cloth being destroyed. There is no record evidence of the Virgo Cloth  getting BTFO (only that Shaka took it with in) nor is there any precedent for Cloths being able to repair themselves (See Taurus) That was always Ikki's shit and Mu's territory. If AE had destroy the Virgo Cloth, Shaka wouldn't have gotten it back.



This happened before in the Sanctuary arc when it appeared that Shaka had died. He can regenerate his own Cloth, its part of his power set. Both he and the Virgo Cloth were absolutely destroyed by the AE from Saga and the others.

That simple.



> 2)  Wailing Wall example was an incident of the GC tanking the combined cosmo of all 12 GS when AE can be powered by 1/3 of the number. More importantly, had Athena Exclamation been enough to accomplish the task of destroying the wall, they would only need 3 Gold Saints to do the job and the other 9 would help Seiya and the others rescue Athena, their main perogative. That all 12 were needed to be sacrificed in order to destroy the wall (putting them at a massive disadvantage down the road) is evidence that Athena Exclamation which at most would have only killed 3, while the others dipped with the bronzes wouldn't have cut it. The Gold Cloths withstood that energy and consequently AE should be no issue for them.



No.

The Gold Saints concentrated their energies against the Wailing Wall. No where was it ever stated this somehow makes it 4x stronger then an Athena's Exclamation. AE is a specific "shadow" technique that got forbidden because it very specifically is considered a dishonorable tactic in duels and 1 on 1 fights by Athena and the Grand Popes.

We have no comparison that them concentrating their Cosmos together in Aiolos' arrow works on the same mechanic or behavior as 3 Gold Saints performing AEs together.

Thirdly, its an explosion. They are not tanking it, they are not caught in the center of the blast, they died from the backlash of the damage they caused when they unleashed their combined energies. You are pushing an outlier even if what you claimed was true.



> 3) I wasn't disagreeing with you on Aegir, in fact, I already conceded that point to CD.  My reasoning relates back to the Gold Cloths tanking AE (we disagree but that's besides the point here) however Aegir is a weakling and all his feats of destroying a Gold Cloth come from the sword. The sword's power can be maximized when Hyperion is at the helm and yet it still pales before Athena Exclamation, the same technique that (again by my POV) can't destroy a Gold Cloth.



Let me break this down for you:

- Gold Saints do not tank AEs
- Gold Cloths do not tank AEs
- Aegir did not destroy a Gold Cloth even with Hyperion's sword; he just pierced the Libra Cloth and did fatal damage to Genbu
- The sword was damaged before hand by Genbu's Libra Sword before its crack and damage was taken advantage of by Shiryuu, Kiki, and Fudo's combined AE attack



> Essentially:
> 
> AE > Holy Sword > Gold Cloth Durability > AE



Wrong.

AE ! = Holy Sword > AE >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gold Cloths.



> It doesn't make any goddamn sense, brah.



The inconsistency argument was used against you when he pointed out Suikyo's fingers > would be greater than a AE attack by your logic. Which is what is flawed.



> We're reaching some serious circular logic on the front.



Not really.



> You consider Apollo stronger than Hades because:
> 
> A) He shits on a stronger Seiya.
> B) Athena is scared shitless of him



Wrong.

Athena is scared of Apollo.
Artemis is scared of Apollo.

Athena absolutely does not want to face Apollo even after seeing Seiya beat down Artemis 'Angels' including Marin's brother. 

Athena is fully aware of what Posideon and Hades are capable of, Athena does not want to face him.


> *snip*



That's a nice speculation. Its too bad it doesn't actually mean anything relevant.



> *snip*



You are making things more convoluted and unnecessarily complicated then they need to be. Athena can summon her Kamui if she needed it, Athena is well aware of the miracles her Saints can cause to grow inexplicitly stronger and more powerful with their own Cosmos and their Cloths. 

Athena did not want to face Apollo even after the trials with Hades. The guy is not taking anything Seiya is doing seriously, even when he has a reputation of being a God-Slayer, without Apollo bothering to wear his own God Cloth.

It very simply tells me that Apollo is that much stronger when he can literally handwave everything away in the universe even when Hades himself could not. Hades still took the 5 God Cloth Bronze Saints seriously even if he was curbstomping them.

Athena never displayed the level of fear, paranoia, or fright when confronted with Hades in Makai, even which can arguably be brought to be the God of the Underworld's personal realm where he's at his strongest when facing him without her Kamui activated.

There is nothing suggesting that Hades is comparable to Apollo. And nothing Saturn displayed is above casual universal level reboots or his level of reality warping.


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jul 12, 2015)

Seiya wasn't even wearing his god cloth and  he managed to  land a blow on saturn:

Athena said in next dimension that god cloths return to its regular form after its finished with its duty.  Seiya's gold cloth remained the same so it's not a god  cloth.





If Seiya's cloth was a god cloth, then it should have returned to the previous version, but it remained the same.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jul 12, 2015)

>using next dimension statements to debate toei cannon 
Zezima,pls
they have no need to follow something they completely disgards


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jul 12, 2015)

If it was a god cloth, it would be stated as being a god cloth. 

Seiya never said his cloth was a god cloth.  He may have gotten the same power as a god cloth, but his durability is sht compared to the MU seiya .


----------



## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Two separate continuities


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jul 12, 2015)

Would you consider the omega cloths as being stronger than the god cloths from the manga? Since the omega cloths didn't crack when Saturn attacked them like Seiya.


----------



## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

I would consider them comparable.


----------



## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> This happened before in the Sanctuary arc when it appeared that Shaka had died. He can regenerate his own Cloth, its part of his power set. Both he and the Virgo Cloth were absolutely destroyed by the AE from Saga and the others.
> 
> That simple.



>Only Shaka never actually died in Sanctuary so this point is moot
>There is no evidence with Shaka's death that the Cloth was destroyed with him nor is there that AE destroyed it either

We are only given 3 sequence of events:

>Saga and Co hit Shaka with AE
>Shaka dies
>Shaka takes the cloth with him to Underworld 

It is confirmed at no point that the cloth was destroyed by AE. That's supposition.





> No.
> 
> 
> Thirdly, its an explosion. They are not tanking it, they are not caught in the center of the blast, they died from the backlash of the damage they caused when they unleashed their combined energies. You are pushing an outlier even if what you claimed was true.





An explosion directly caused by their combined power which is logically > AE given they were all sacrificed instead of just 3 busting it out.  The backlash ensuing also occurring in a small as fuck environment means that, yes, they're taking all of that energy.

_What_ outlier? Cloths in the original timeline were only broken   by 

A) Seiya performing what was considered miraculous against Aldebaran
B) Pissed off Poseidon shattering the center of Sagittarius with his trident
C) Thanatos strongest technique

How does surviving something stronger than AE equate to an outlier in anyway. At worst, there are inconsistencies all over the place.




> -snip-



Why are you bothering refuting what was already a concession?




> Wrong.
> 
> Athena is scared of Apollo.
> Artemis is scared of Apollo.
> ...



Don't see what Artemis has to do with anything here when we're scaling her off her sister and its even doubtful she's as strong considering she was also scared shitless of clothless Seiya's meteor fist. Athena being scared of Apollo means squat as I've said repeatedly, she faces off against him mere moments later to back up Seiya just as she's been doing the whole time with Hades and Poseidon.





Athena's duty as the guardian of Earth and love for humans far exceeds her own innate emotions. Hades and Poseidon were enemies of humans for countless centuries, her not being afraid of them is perfectly understandable  for the same reason as there isn't a trace of her previous fear of facing Apollo when she resolved herself that he was an enemy.



> That's a nice speculation. Its too bad it doesn't actually mean anything relevant.




You sure about that?



			
				You said:
			
		

> even with the God-Slayer post-Hades arc Seiya who had managed to damage Hades' surplice with his Gold Cloth, he took a punch from a potentially stronger Seiya unflinching without his own God Cloth, and reset the entire universe with a hand wave.





			
				You again said:
			
		

> It doesn't correlate to magically equating Saturn > Apollo, especially considering Apollo rebooted the universe while taking a punch from a stronger Seiya post-Hades fight to the face without wearing his Cloth



Cause as I see it,  you've used  Overture Seiya > Hades Seiya as supplementary evidence for Apolla > Hades quite a few times already and that irrelevant post was directly contrary to your stance i.e zero evidence nor sensible for Seiya becoming stronger  and wounding Hades to be a better feat than anything he accomplished in Overture. Not like it makes any sense for Seiya wearing a Goddamn God Cloth which was hyped to hell as the most powerful armor, to now all of a sudden exceed it without wearing any cloth of his own. 

Seiya has absolutely fuck all reason to be stronger when he's unconscious the whole time and wounding Hades at his best with the cloth far exceeds stopping a casual wave from Apollo. Of course, you could consider that Apollo's just that much stronger than Hades in the first place. Which is my point: circular logic, Hades and Apollo have absolutely nothing going for them




> You are making things more convoluted and unnecessarily complicated then they need to be. Athena can summon her Kamui if she needed it, Athena is well aware of the miracles her Saints can cause to grow inexplicitly stronger and more powerful with their own Cosmos and their Cloths



Athena didn't have her Kamui on her and seeing as its normally sealed in that statue and needed the Saints to bring it to her, its unlikely she can just summon it whenever she wants. Saints however have also shown limits with stronger armor/ How is a clothless Seiya meant to stand a second against someone who shits on Athena herself?



> The guy is not taking anything Seiya is doing seriously, even when he has a reputation of being a God-Slayer, without Apollo bothering to wear his own God Cloth..
> 
> It very simply tells me that Apollo is that much stronger when he can literally handwave everything away in the universe even when Hades himself could not. Hades still took the 5 God Cloth Bronze Saints seriously even if he was curbstomping them.



Dude. The very first sentence that Apollo utters affirms  he's just an arrogant dick who believes humans are below and inconsequential to _all _Gods despite the fact that Seiya is a known God-Slayer of two of the strongest 12. It has nothing to do with strength, its hubris born of existential origins.

What's this about Hades not being able to hand-wave everything in the universe? The man is constantly holding the Underworld and everything in it with his own power and nerfs himself as a result and yet he's still powerful enough to wipe the floor with Athena and God Saints.




> There is nothing suggesting that Hades is comparable to Apollo. And nothing Saturn displayed is above casual universal level reboots or his level of reality warping.



More like there's nothing suggesting either way.


----------



## Qinglong (Jul 12, 2015)

Shaka got to the underworld by you know, dying...


Not just dying even

He was fucking obliterated by the AE

I've seen the damage to the area and the cloth is nowhere to be found, unless you're suggesting it magically survived and can go spirit form along with his spirit, because that's all that was left after the AE.


----------



## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> Shaka got to the underworld by you know, dying...



And Shaka dying equates to the cloth being destroyed as well because....



> He was fucking obliterated by the AE
> 
> I've seen the damage to the area and the cloth is nowhere to be found, unless you're suggesting it magically survived and can go spirit form along with his spirit, because that's all that was left after the AE.



I've only seen the anime (because where the fuck is the manga) and Shaka is there at the center after AE and vanishes with it. Unsurprising seeing as when EVERY Gold Saint revives in the Underworld, they brought their cloths with them.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jul 12, 2015)

what is this about hades lacking apollo level feats ?
hades cosmo can hold 2 dimensions several times bigger than our observable universe like nothing
if anything he has better show dc wise (albeit i do agree appolo is likely above him)


----------



## Qinglong (Jul 12, 2015)

Are we seriously talking about Occam's razor on one page while jumping through hoops in the next

because this is getting ridiculous


----------



## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Liquid said:


> >Only Shaka never actually died in Sanctuary so this point is moot
> >There is no evidence with Shaka's death that the Cloth was destroyed with him nor is there that AE destroyed it either
> 
> We are only given 3 sequence of events:
> ...



The Cloth turns to dust with Shaka's body as he died. 
Shaka is confirmed dead.
The Cloth is destroyed with him.

This does not magically equate to the Virgo Cloth being undamaged while Shaka dies. That is not how the system works in the mythos.

When Shaka revives, he regenerates himself and his Cloth. Just as he did when the Virgo Cloth was blown to piece in his fight with Ikki.

You are wrong.



> An explosion directly caused by their combined power which is logically > AE given they were all sacrificed instead of just 3 busting it out.  The backlash ensuing also occurring in a small as fuck environment means that, yes, they're taking all of that energy.



Except you have no idea how combining their Cosmos into Aiolos arrow equates to the mechanics of how Athena Exclamation works. And the Wailing Wall was destroyed by them using energy of sun light which powers their Gold Cloths.

Its not comparable, it does not work the same way, and nothing supports what you are arguing. Stop claiming this.



> _What_ outlier? Cloths in the original timeline were only broken   by
> 
> A) Seiya performing what was considered miraculous against Aldebaran



Seiya chipped one of the horns from Alderbaran's helmet, nothing more. He did not destroy or damage the Taurus Cloth outside of that, and that was him temporarily hitting the 7th Sense with a luck shot.



> B) Pissed off Poseidon shattering the center of Sagittarius with his trident



A pissed of Poseidon who was nowhere near full power and didn't have his true body and clearly was not at 100%. Cool.



> C) Thanatos strongest technique



Which shattered the five Gold Cloths into their component pieces, not atmoize them to sub-atomic particles or dust like Saga's GE did to Ikki in the manga or what the three traitor Gold Saints did to Shaka with AE.



> How does surviving something stronger than AE equate to an outlier in anyway. At worst, there are inconsistencies all over the place.



Because a casual attack from Poseidon or an enraged named technique from Thanatos is not equivalent to a focused Big Bang. Nor is an unnamed technique where 12 Gold Saints use a different attack to breaking the Wailing Wall similar to an AE.



> Why are you bothering refuting what was already a concession?



Why are you making this overly complicated, Sables kun?



> Don't see what Artemis has to do with anything here when we're scaling her off her sister and its even doubtful she's as strong considering she was also scared shitless of clothless Seiya's meteor fist. Athena being scared of Apollo means squat as I've said repeatedly, she faces off against him mere moments later to back up Seiya just as she's been doing the whole time with Hades and Poseidon.



Its more equivalent when the fear is tangibly portrayed by both Athena and Artemis when Apollo shows up, which is more then what Hades has going for him.



> Athena's duty as the guardian of Earth and love for humans far exceeds her own innate emotions. Hades and Poseidon were enemies of humans for countless centuries, her not being afraid of them is perfectly understandable  for the same reason as there isn't a trace of her previous fear of facing Apollo when she resolved herself that he was an enemy.



She put herself between Seiya and Apollo the moment she realized he was still going to kill Seiya because of the Bronze Saint's refusal to back down from Apollo. It was a last-ditch resort to deter Apollo from killing Seiya in her eyes, nothing more.



> You sure about that?



I certainly am.



> Cause as I see it,  you've used  Overture Seiya > Hades Seiya as supplementary evidence for Apolla > Hades quite a few times already and that irrelevant post was directly contrary to your stance i.e zero evidence nor sensible for Seiya becoming stronger  and wounding Hades to be a better feat than anything he accomplished in Overture. Not like it makes any sense for Seiya wearing a Goddamn God Cloth which was hyped to hell as the most powerful armor, to now all of a sudden exceed it without wearing any cloth of his own.



1. Its not the most powerful armor, the God's actual Kamuis/Soma armors are.
2. Seiya only did minor damage against Hades at full power with his Surplice when Seiya had his God Cloth
3. Seiya's cosmos was higher then it ever was while the universe was starting to be warped by Apollo's hand.



> Seiya has absolutely fuck all reason to be stronger when he's unconscious the whole time and wounding Hades at his best with the cloth far exceeds stopping a casual wave from Apollo. Of course, you could consider that Apollo's just that much stronger than Hades in the first place. Which is my point: circular logic, Hades and Apollo have absolutely nothing going for them



Except casual universal reboots with a handwave by a nonchalant Olympian who doesn't even bother wearing his Kamui. Yeah, "absolutely nothing" my ass.



> Athena didn't have her Kamui on her and seeing as its normally sealed in that statue and needed the Saints to bring it to her, its unlikely she can just summon it whenever she wants.



That was before she could use her Kamui, you nerd.



> Saints however have also shown limits with stronger armor/ How is a clothless Seiya meant to stand a second against someone who shits on Athena herself?



By reaching higher levels of senses and their Cosmos. Like Ikki's master, Guilty, who had mastered his Cosmos to the point he never wore his Cloth and was one of the strongest Silver Saints in the Sanctuary while whopping Ikki's ass until the end of the fight. Or hell, the Legendary Silver Saint whose mastery of his own Senses and Cosmos put him on par with the top tier Gold Saints despite his Cloth's own handicap.

The manga hammers over our head that at a sufficient level, one's Cosmos can attain heights that approaches the Gods even without having a Cloth.



> *snip*



Irrelevant. Apollo is well aware of what Seiya and the other Bronze Saints are capable of, as well as Hades' death and Poseidon's defeat. 



> What's this about Hades not being able to hand-wave everything in the universe? The man is constantly holding the Underworld and everything in it with his own power and nerfs himself as a result and yet he's still powerful enough to wipe the floor with Athena and God Saints.



>Hades
>nerfs himself

You are pulling shit out of your ass now as much as you were claiming Shaka's Cloth tanked an AE. Stop.



> More like there's nothing suggesting either way.



Wrong.


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> I would consider them comparable.



If Seiya had a god cloth and it got destroyed that easily by Saturn, then I guess the omega cloths  have at least better durability than god cloths. Unless Saturn wasn't going as seriously as he was with Seiya because he had his memories of Subaru towards his friends.


----------



## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Comparable does not mean equal.


----------



## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> The Cloth turns to dust with Shaka's body as he died.
> Shaka is confirmed dead.
> The Cloth is destroyed with him.
> 
> ...








> Its not comparable, it does not work the same way, and nothing supports what you are arguing. Stop claiming this.



I don't care about _how _AE works compared to what the 12 used against the wailing wall nor have I continued to argue because the arrow was fired with the combination of more GS means its superior to AE. Notice how its not part of the last post at all?

What I'm saying is the fact that they don't bother trying to straight up overpower the wall with  AE and instead choose the arrow means it was clearly stronger. Sun-light is irrelevant because they still need the energy to back up that power.




> Why are you making this overly complicated, Sables kun?



Why does everyone keep saying this? I'm perfectly rational 




> Its more equivalent when the fear is tangibly portrayed by both Athena and Artemis when Apollo shows up, which is more then what Hades has going for him.
> 
> 
> She put herself between Seiya and Apollo the moment she realized he was still going to kill Seiya because of the Bronze Saint's refusal to back down from Apollo. It was a last-ditch resort to deter Apollo from killing Seiya in her eyes, nothing more.



I swear we've been here before.


-Athena is scared of Apollo 
-Athena wasn't scared of Hades
-Athena knows they can't beat Apollo

That's where the agreement ends. You consider Athena standing up to Apollo as a sign of desperation (one logical interpretation I guess), on grounds that she knows he's too strong for them to beat. How is that _any _ different from Hades who wiped the floor with her and even more back-up?

My stance is that her priorities shifted when she acknowledged Apollo as a threat just like Poseidon and Hades and treated him no differently.



> 1. Its not the most powerful armor, the God's actual Kamuis/Soma armors are.
> 2. Seiya only did minor damage against Hades at full power with his Surplice when Seiya had his God Cloth
> 3. Seiya's cosmos was higher then it ever was while the universe was starting to be warped by Apollo's hand.



1) True but its not disregarding the point
2) Damaging someone above Universal >  Temporarily halting a Universal time reset
3) Never stated at any point



> Except casual universal reboots with a handwave by a nonchalant Olympian who doesn't even bother wearing his Kamui. Yeah, "absolutely nothing" my ass.



Absolutely nothing compared to Hades maintaining dimensions at all times? Yeah 




> By reaching higher levels of senses and their Cosmos. Like Ikki's master, Guilty, who had mastered his Cosmos to the point he never wore his Cloth and was one of the strongest Silver Saints in the Sanctuary while whopping Ikki's ass until the end of the fight. Or hell, the Legendary Silver Saint whose mastery of his own Senses and Cosmos put him on par with the top tier Gold Saints despite his Cloth's own handicap.
> 
> The manga hammers over our head that at a sufficient level, one's Cosmos can attain heights that approaches the Gods even without having a Cloth.



Fair enough



> Irrelevant. Apollo is well aware of what Seiya and the other Bronze Saints are capable of, as well as Hades' death and Poseidon's defeat.



This is literally just stone-walling what I've just said. In spite of the fact that Apollo *knows *humans have overcome the strongest Gods, he still considers them insignificant to every last one of them.  His line of thinking from the start is arrogant and contradictory so why are you using it as basis for anything?



> >Hades
> >nerfs himself
> 
> You are pulling shit out of your ass now as much as you were claiming Shaka's Cloth tanked an AE. Stop.



This ain't rocket science. That the underworld vanishes upon Hades' death means he's constantly maintaining its existence with a fixed amount of his power, and he still has left over to beat Athena and the others in excess. This has been a staple argument in the OBD as long as I can remember



> Wrong.



Get rekt, fggt.


----------



## Sablés (Jul 12, 2015)

Mfw I just realized this whole argument has nothing to do with Saturn and was pointless from the start. Fuck it, I'm done, feel free to take that as a concession


----------



## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Liquid said:


> *snip*



Art thou frustrated?



> I don't care about _how _AE works compared to what the 12 used against the wailing wall nor have I continued to argue because the arrow was fired with the combination of more GS means its superior to AE. Notice how its not part of the last post at all?



It doesn't matter what you think with the 12 Gold Saints combining their Cosmos on a single point. An Athena Exclamation is a focused Big Bang, a specific technique that's forbidden for its destructive power and collateral damage.

The 12 Gold Saints combining their Cosmos into Aiolos arrow is not > an AE.



> What I'm saying is the fact that they don't bother trying to straight up overpower the wall with  AE and instead choose the arrow means it was clearly stronger. Sun-light is irrelevant because they still need the energy to back up that power.



Wrong.

They needed to use the sun-light to overcome the dark cosmos or whatever empowering the Wailing Wall. AE is not a technique you would use for breaching Hades' barrier to Elysium. You don't use a shotgun to snipe a man, you use a sniper rifle, in this case AE is not designed for a specific focal point of damage.

Nothing indicates 12 GS Cosmos together being greater then a focused Big Bang technique. You seem to be caught up in in some inane belief that the three Gold Saints are generating the power together for the Big Bang in the AE in terms of energy, we don't know how it works, we just know what it does.

So no, its not flying.



> Why does everyone keep saying this? I'm perfectly rational



Because you are saying a lot of wrong things.






> I swear we've been here before.
> 
> 
> -Athena is scared of Apollo
> ...



When did Hades wipe the floor with Athena? He was wiping the floor with the *five Bronze Saints with their God Clothes*. She was holding her own with him, blocking his attacks with her Aegis and exchanging attacks with him, even if he was stronger, they were comparable.



> My stance is that her priorities shifted when she acknowledged Apollo as a threat just like Poseidon and Hades and treated him no differently.



So she wasn't acknowledging Apollo as a threat when he teleported her against her will and own power into his arms so he could choke/burn her to death? Sure. 



> 1) True but its not disregarding the point
> 2) Damaging someone above Universal >  Temporarily halting a Universal time reset
> 3) Never stated at any point



1. It does.
2. Seiya did MINOR damage to Hades' Surplice and he did not HALT the attack nor was it specifically directed at him from Apollo
3. Except for the fact Seiya with his damaged Cloth had already beaten Toma, the strongest of Artemis angels and was actually powering up even when his Cloth was blown away; its simple observable fact



> Absolutely nothing compared to Hades maintaining dimensions at all times? Yeah



You mean two dimensions, one which is small pocket dimension and the other is comparable to the real universe? Yes. He rebooted the events, time, space, and reality with a fucking hand gesture without his Kamui.

Get over it.



> This is literally just stone-walling what I've just said. In spite of the fact that Apollo *knows *humans have overcome the strongest Gods, he still considers them insignificant to every last one of them.  His line of thinking from the start is arrogant and contradictory so why are you using it as basis for anything?



Irrelevant fluff, ad naseum. Apollo proves his point when he reboots the universe and walks off Seiya's attacks without his Kamui. Hades is dead, Posideon is sealed and turned benign. 

>overcome the strongest Gods

Since when? Seiya overcome and defeated all of ONE God in the series, and that was Thanatos, the weaker twin of the lowest level of Gods in the series. Poseidon was defeated and resealed by Athena. Hades was defeated by Athena in a moment of luck and Seiya accomplished nothing against Apollo save convincing him not to wipe out humanity.



> This ain't rocket science. That the underworld vanishes upon Hades' death means he's constantly maintaining its existence with a fixed amount of his power, and he still has left over to beat Athena and the others in excess. This has been a staple argument in the OBD as long as I can remember



Yes. But that has nothing to do with handicapping or nerfing Hades' power, there has never been a single fucking piece of evidence, argument, citation that Hades was forced to hold back power to maintain Elysium and Makai.

Ever.




> Get rekt, fggt.



You are 10,000 years too early to shit talk me, newbie.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jul 12, 2015)

Fang said:


> Comparable does not mean equal.



So can any omega saint beat manga god cloth seiya or any of the other god saints individually?


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## Fang (Jul 12, 2015)

Your asking me this because no one is posting your thread


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Jul 12, 2015)

Yes.    Other than for durability, the omega saints haven't shown to be superior  in terms of power to the god saints.


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