# Madara (Perfect Susano'o) vs Sasuke (Perfect Susano'o)



## Divell (Apr 3, 2016)

More than a battle is a question, do you guys think Madara's Susano'o is even close to Sasuke's



vs



I would say he does.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 3, 2016)

Sasuke's is superior. Then again it's only natural with six paths chakra backing his.

The rubble that came from the meteor that sasuke destroyed was bigger than mountain ranges. Madara's can just wipe off alot of mountain tops.


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## Raiken (Apr 3, 2016)

Sasuke's appeared to have slightly higher destructive capacity with it's slashes than Edo-Madara's.
While Madara's construct appears to be of a greater size than Sasuke's.
However, Sasuke's can also fly.

Flight & Increased Power of Slashes (& likely increased durability) >> Larger Construct

Sasuke's PS is superior.


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## Brooks (Apr 3, 2016)

A chunk of the Meteor that Sasuke's PS cuts dwarfs multiple mountains.
Madara's Perfect Susanoo shouldn't be compare to Sasuke's PS when feats put Sasuke's PS far higher than his.


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## Divell (Apr 3, 2016)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Sasuke's is superior. Then again it's only natural with six paths chakra backing his.
> 
> The rubble that came from the meteor that sasuke destroyed was bigger than mountain ranges. Madara's can just wipe off alot of mountain tops.



is not like sasuke destroyed it completely, he just cuts them, I would say Madara is in the islands as he cut down Hashirama's Woods thing, but Prime Kyuubi didn't even scratch it.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 3, 2016)

This is not even comparable. Sasuke's PS is vastly superior simply due to him having Hagoromo's chakra. It's really that simple.


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## Raiken (Apr 3, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> This is not even comparable. Sasuke's PS is vastly superior *simply due to him having Hagoromo's chakra*. It's really that simple.


It's people like you that have ruined the Battledome. 

Part 1 Rikudou Sakura VS SM Hashirama.
Well Sakura has Rikudou Chakra, sooooooo...


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 3, 2016)

Divell said:


> is not like sasuke destroyed it completely, he just cuts them, I would say Madara is in the islands as he cut down Hashirama's Woods thing, but Prime Kyuubi didn't even scratch it.



Madara didn't completely destroy the mountains he slashed either(neither did he destroy the remnants of the meteors he struck directly).

You mean the wood technique hashirama used to block kurama's bijuudama? I don't remember madara's PS slash destroying that paticular jutsu. I'd like to see a scan showing this. It still wouldn't put him on sasuke's level tho.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 3, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> It's people like you that have ruined the Battledome.
> 
> Part 1 Rikudou Sakura VS SM Hashirama.
> Well Sakura has Rikudou Chakra, sooooooo...



Hagoromo is a God, half of his power made Naruto and Sasuke go from being weaker than VOTE Hashirama and Madara to being able to take on Juudara and later Kaguya. I don't bother having long drawn out discussions about Rikudou Naruto and Sasuke verse anyone else because it's pointless. We all (or rather those who aren't in denial) know who is a lot stronger than the other. Which is why they're excluded from most scenarios.


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## Divell (Apr 3, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Hagoromo is a God, half of his power made Naruto and Sasuke go from being weaker than VOTE Hashirama and Madara to being able to take on Juudara and later Kaguya. I don't bother having long drawn out discussions about Rikudou Naruto and Sasuke verse anyone else because it's pointless. We all (or rather those who aren't in denial) know who is a lot stronger than the other. Which is why they're excluded from most scenarios.



Not necessarily, Naruto hadn't unlocked the six path chakra while Obito had with the power of Juubi, and Madara was that powerful because of Rinnegan, I would say they are close with Sasuke being superior by a small edge since Sasuke and Naruto both unlocked the power of Hagoromo's sons.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 3, 2016)

Divell said:


> Not necessarily, Naruto hadn't unlocked the six path chakra while Obito had with the power of Juubi, and Madara was that powerful because of Rinnegan, I would say they are close with Sasuke being superior by a small edge since Sasuke and Naruto both unlocked the power of Hagoromo's sons.



I'm not really sure what you're trying to say tbh.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 3, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Hagoromo is a God, half of his power made Naruto and Sasuke go from being weaker than VOTE Hashirama and Madara to being able to take on Juudara and later Kaguya. I don't bother having long drawn out discussions about Rikudou Naruto and Sasuke verse anyone else because it's pointless. We all (or rather those who aren't in denial) know who is a lot stronger than the other. Which is why they're excluded from most scenarios.


everything you just said about them possessing half of hagoromos power is wrong since they no longer possess the seals.

the people that disagree on sasukes katana cutting through PS are clearly in denial


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## Divell (Apr 3, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm not really sure what you're trying to say tbh.



Naruto and Sasuke were stronger than 1 Rinnegan Madara because they had unlocked the real power of Indra a Ashura, not the power of Hagoromo, Hagoromo gives them a seal to put Kaguya out. We never saw Sasuke using perfect Susano'o so we can't actually argue about being stronger than now. I do believe Madara's could scale to Sasuke's though. At the very least in close proximity in what raw power refers.


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## hbcaptain (Apr 3, 2016)

The PS used by Rikudou Sasuke is at a whole different league compared to Madara's ,
Madara's slash = 2 mountains in the same line .
Kyubizord slash = 4 mountains .
Sasuke's slash = easily 10 mountains .
C/C : Sasuke shit on Madara with low difficulty .


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 3, 2016)

Divell said:


> Naruto and Sasuke were stronger than 1 Rinnegan Madara because they had unlocked the real power of Indra a Ashura, not the power of Hagoromo, Hagoromo gives them a seal to put Kaguya out. We never saw Sasuke using perfect Susano'o so we can't actually argue about being stronger than now. I do believe Madara's could scale to Sasuke's though. At the very least in close proximity in what raw power refers.



They didn't unlock Indra and Asura's powers. They had powers that Indra and Asura themselves didn't even have. Hagoromo gave them each half of his own chakra, he didn't "awaken" anything inside of them. Sasuke's PS as we saw was cutting through meteors that towered over entire mountain ranges whilst Madara's PS was only shown capable of cutting mountains in half. How are these two things comparable enough for Madara's PS to compete with Sasuke's?


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## Divell (Apr 3, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> The PS used by Rikudou Sasuke is at a whole different league compared to Madara's ,
> Madara's slash = 2 mountains in the same line .
> Kyubizord slash = 4 mountains .
> Sasuke's slash = easily 10 mountains .
> C/C : Sasuke shit on Madara with low difficulty .


two mountains only? you forgot everything that was in the way between Madara and the mountain and it was a after effect of destroying the meteor. Not to mention this

destroying 5 mountains as a after effect of cutting Hashirama's wood monster, same guy that took Kurama Prime's BijuuDama without even a scratch.



Isaiah13000 said:


> They didn't unlock Indra and Asura's powers. They had powers that Indra and Asura themselves didn't even have. Hagoromo gave them each half of his own chakra, he didn't "awaken" anything inside of them. Sasuke's PS as we saw was cutting through meteors that towered over entire mountain ranges whilst Madara's PS was only shown capable of cutting mountains in half. How are these two things comparable enough for Madara's PS to compete with Sasuke's?


Do you have a list of Hyndra and Ashura's powers? Besides the seal that Hagoromo gives them they haven't shown any new power.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> ITT: people still saying they lost the Rikudou Chakra when Naruto still has RSM.
> 
> NBD never fails to disappoint with its hilarious idiots. The seals were a large concentration of six paths chakra, thats it. The rikudou chakra in their body refills like normal chakra does. Hagoromo said they needed the seals/six paths chakra to undo IT. Since they undid IT then it must mean they still have 6 paths chakra.


Don't confuse RinneSharinga and TSB with Rikudou Power, one is obtained by having the power of the nine beast's chakra. And the other is obtained by combining the Senju with Uchiha cells. The Rikudou Power is the tatoo that Naruto and Sasuke had in their hands. That they use to seal Kaguya. That is the Rikudou Power.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 3, 2016)

Divell said:


> two mountains only? you forgot everything that was in the way between Madara and the mountain and it was a after effect of destroying the meteor. Not to mention this
> 
> destroying 5 mountains as a after effect of cutting Hashirama's wood monster, same guy that took Kurama Prime's BijuuDama without even a scratch.



He did that with the Kyuubi's help so that isnt a feat of his PS alone. Next



Divell said:


> Don't confuse RinneSharinga and TSB with Rikudou Power, one is obtained by having the power of the nine beast's chakra. And the other is obtained by combining the Senju with Uchiha cells. The Rikudou Power is the tatoo that Naruto and Sasuke had in their hands. That they use to seal Kaguya. That is the Rikudou Power.



Except Sasuke doesnt have any of Hashirama's cells? What the fuck are you even talking about dude. RSM is short for Rikudou Sage Mode. Its the fucking six paths senjutsu that made it. Nothing about the bijuu. They still have the Rikudou power.


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## Divell (Apr 3, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He did that with the Kyuubi's help so that isnt a feat of his PS alone. Next


It was of his PS alone, he was simply covering Kyuubi.





OneSimpleAnime said:


> Except Sasuke doesnt have any of Hashirama's cells? What the fuck are you even talking about dude. RSM is short for Rikudou Sage Mode. Its the fucking six paths senjutsu that made it. Nothing about the bijuu. They still have the Rikudou power.


Remember when Kabuto healed him? he give him Senju cells. And no Six Path Power is made by having the chakra of Juubi not Hagoromo.


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2016)

Sasukes Rikudo PS is *far* superior


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 3, 2016)

Divell said:


> two mountains only? you forgot everything that was in the way between Madara and the mountain and it was a after effect of destroying the meteor. Not to mention this
> 
> destroying 5 mountains as a after effect of cutting Hashirama's wood monster, same guy that took Kurama Prime's BijuuDama without even a scratch.
> 
> ...



Kurama swung the sword when that happened, Madara's PS on it's own can only cut down two mountains. Besides, that still isn't comparable to what Sasuke's PS can do at all. Indra only has the MS and can use Susanoo, and Asura could use Six Paths Senjutsu that he got from his father. So all of the other powers that Naruto and Sasuke have clearly do not belong to Indra and Asura, besides, Hagoromo stated that he had already given them his chakra anyway. He never "awakened" anything inside of them. This is evident by him saying that he barely has enough chakra left to maintain his form in the physical world after giving 99.9% of it to them.  

No. In order to use the TSB you must possess both Six Paths Senjutsu and the chakra of all of the tailed beasts. This is evident as Naruto only gets them after he activates the chakra cloak while in Six Paths Sage Mode. Sasuke wouldn't unlock the Rinnegan on his own that fast, he unlocked his unique Rinnegan because of Hagoromo and Sasuke states himself that their powers come from Hagoromo.


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## The Undying (Apr 3, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hagoromo said they needed the seals/six paths chakra to undo IT.




That's not what he said.



The only times that the term "Six Paths Power/Chakra" (Rikudou no Chikara) is ever mentioned at all is when the seals on their hands were being referenced.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> That's not what he said.
> 
> 
> 
> The only times that the term "Six Paths Power/Chakra" (Rikudou no Chikara) is ever mentioned at all is when the seals on their hands were being referenced.



Are you blind? He says they need the seals, but you know what happened at VotE2? They kind of destroyed them, yet they could still undo IT. Sasuke even says Naruto could take his Rinnegan and have Kakashi use it with Naruto to undo IT. The seals are just a huge concentration of their six paths power, its still in their bodies which is evident because Naruto still has RSM and Sasuke still has his Six Paths Rinnegan. 

There isnt an argument to be had here. Rikudou Sage Mode from Naruto uses six paths senjutsu, thats its main factor. Hell Naruto has like close to 0 chakra from the tailed beasts after the Kaguya fight because he used it to fight her.


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## fyhb (Apr 4, 2016)

With the Rikudou Boost Sasuke PS becomes naturally way stronger.

If talk about normal PS I would say they are equal in Power but Sasuke has an advantage because his PS can fly which is really big advantage over Madara PS.


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Sasukes Rikudo PS is *far* superior



I wouldn't call it far Superior, Sasuke only has better feats and is the cutting the meteors that were as big as the tree.


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## Android (Apr 4, 2016)

like i really don't know what the fuck do people smock in these forums 
sasuke himself said that their powers were gave to them by hagoromo 
the manga made it clear that their rinnegan and six paths sage mode were gave to them by hagoromo 
the FUCKING 4TH DATABOOK says that their powers were gave to them by hagoromo 

if fucking hagoromo himself came out and says this , people will still make their own shit  
they just like to ignore canon materials and act like a smart asses and pick only what justify their bias
like if sasuke statement , the manga , the databook are not enuff



Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> With the Rikudou Boost Sasuke PS becomes naturally way stronger.
> 
> If talk about normal PS I would say they are equal in Power but Sasuke has an advantage because his PS can fly which is really big advantage over Madara PS.



well , according to the databook , all perfect susanoo's can fly 



ARGUS said:


> Sasukes Rikudo PS is *far* superior



i can't believe this , but ARGUS is right 

i guess there is a one time for everything


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## fyhb (Apr 4, 2016)

Oh I didn't know that all Susanoo can fly. I apologize for my ignorance.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 4, 2016)

Sasuke gained access to Madara's level of Perfect Susano'o after meeting Hagoromo. Naturally, Sasuke is far below Madara's level and caught up to Madara with that upgrade.

Both PS (Madara and Sasuke) are comparable.


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kurama swung the sword when that happened, Madara's PS on it's own can only cut down two mountains. Besides, that still isn't comparable to what Sasuke's PS can do at all. Indra only has the MS and can use Susanoo, and Asura could use Six Paths Senjutsu that he got from his father. So all of the other powers that Naruto and Sasuke have clearly do not belong to Indra and Asura, besides, Hagoromo


manga
sense
sense

anime


video game


it was Madara's Secondary arms.
and yes is as impressive as what Sasuke does is with multiple slashes, that was a single swim. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> stated that he had already given them his chakra anyway. He never "awakened" anything inside of them. This is evident by him saying that he barely has enough chakra left to maintain his form in the physical world after giving 99.9% of it to them.


No, what he give to them was the seal, nothing more. Seal that he himself used to seal Kaguya. A moon sized Chibaku. That's why he didn't had any chakra left. and had to summon the team back.



Isaiah13000 said:


> No. In order to use the TSB you must possess both Six Paths Senjutsu and the chakra of all of the tailed beasts. This is evident as Naruto only gets them after he activates the chakra cloak while in Six Paths Sage Mode. Sasuke wouldn't unlock the Rinnegan on his own that fast, he unlocked his unique Rinnegan because of Hagoromo and Sasuke states himself that their powers come from Hagoromo.


ok, my bad it was Hagoromo's abilities. Still who is superior in raw power. I would say they are close.


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## Android (Apr 4, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Oh I didn't know that all Susanoo can fly. I apologize for my ignorance.



your tact makes my eyes tears  

but wait i second , if all perfect susanoo can fly , but madara didn't flew when fighting hashirama 
that means madara was heavily infected with stupidity at that time


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> your tact makes my eyes tears
> 
> but wait i second , if all perfect susanoo can fly , but madara didn't flew when fighting hashirama
> that means madara was heavily infected with stupidity at that time



or maybe is because Hashirama can't fly so he doesn't really need to.


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## Amol (Apr 4, 2016)

Sasuke obviously. He fodderizes Madara's PS.
He has outright feats to prove that.
Though the fact the he has half of the RS power backing him up should be enough make this clear.
And despite anybody's personal liking or disliking RS Chakra is perfectly valid argument.


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## fyhb (Apr 4, 2016)

Haha thanks,I guess. 

Hmm may be Madara had Fear from Flight or Air Sickness!? o_O


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

Amol said:


> Sasuke obviously. He fodderizes Madara's PS.
> He has outright feats to prove that.
> Though the fact the he has half of the RS power backing him up should be enough make this clear.
> And despite anybody's personal liking or disliking RS Chakra is perfectly valid argument.



besides the meteor feats there isn't much to difference them, and Madara has multiple feats that puts him pretty close if not superior to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o. saying he is stronger because of having Rikudou Power is the equivalent of saying Madara is superior to Hashirama because he had Rinnegan even thought it was shown their difference was the same.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> besides the meteor feats there isn't much to difference them, and Madara has multiple feats that puts him pretty close if not superior to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.



Madara has feats to put his PS on the level of EMS Sasuke's PS. Sasuke's PS sword cut through the Sword of Nunoboko and cut through Juubito, those feats are>>>Anything Madara's PS has done with Kurama's help.

The meteor feat is ridiculously above anything Madara has done with PS


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## fyhb (Apr 4, 2016)

It was able to cut trough Nubobonoko because Juubito didn't have strong enough will and determination which weakened thr sword.


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## ARGUS (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> I wouldn't call it far Superior, Sasuke only has better feats and is the cutting the meteors that were as big as the tree.



No his Ps is far superior as feats clearly show. 
Madaras PS best feat is cutting through mountains 

Sasuke cut Madaras CT meteor which is >>>>>>> an average mountain in size 

Pound per pound, CTs is more durable then rock sediments given that just in its early stages it required a TBB FRS and YM to bust it open. And since it's far larger and has much more rock means that a lot more is required

And yes. The roots of shinju span a diameter that's far far larger than that of a mountain. So yeah they are very far apart 



cctr9 said:


> i can't believe this , but ARGUS is right
> 
> i guess there is a one time for everything


Lol I'm always right.  
And you are definitely Hussains alt 
I had my doubts at the start but now I'm sure of it


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## hbcaptain (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> two mountains only? you forgot everything that was in the way between Madara and the mountain and it was a after effect of destroying the meteor. Not to mention this
> 
> destroying 5 mountains as a after effect of cutting Hashirama's wood monster, same guy that took Kurama Prime's BijuuDama without even a scratch.


Read my post I said :
Madara'sPS = 2 mountains *in the same line*
Kyubizord = 4 mountains (the 5th isn't the same line) .
Sasuke's PS = 10 mountains at least , clearly much more since the other meteorites parts are notably bigger .

So basically Rikudo Sasuke's PS>>>>Madara's and it's logical , one is god tier the other isn't .


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## Android (Apr 4, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> No his Ps is far superior as feats clearly show.
> Madaras PS best feat is cutting through mountains
> 
> Sasuke cut Madaras CT meteor which is >>>>>>> an average mountain in size
> ...



nothing's wrong with learning from the great masters right ?


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## Amol (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> besides the meteor feats there isn't much to difference them, and Madara has multiple feats that puts him pretty close if not superior to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o. saying he is stronger because of having Rikudou Power is the equivalent of saying *Madara is superior to Hashirama because he had Rinnegan even thought it was shown their difference was the same*.


What in the world are you talking about? 
Of course Rinnegan Madara was superior to Hashirama.
Was that suppose to be a question?
The sheer strangeness of your argument caught me off guard, I admit.


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## Android (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> or maybe is because Hashirama can't fly so he doesn't really need to.



EMS sasuke and BSM naruto can't fly , but that didn't stop juubito from going airborne
hebi sasuke couldn't fly , but that didn't stop deidara from going airborne
and so on


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Are you blind? He says they need the seals, but you know what happened at VotE2?




As Zef mentioned, he's talking about the _rat hand seal_, not the Yin/Yang seals. Even in Viz's translation, Hagoromo directly says "the seal of the rat" in the panel I provided. He never once mentions anything about his own chakra when he talks about undoing Infinite Tsukuyomi.



> There isnt an argument to be had here. Rikudou Sage Mode from Naruto uses six paths senjutsu, thats its main factor.




And Rikudou Senjutsu likely stems from having the chakra of all Bijuu, as Obito and Madara illustrated when they were Juubi Jinchuurikis and as the Shikamaru novel suggests -- not just "Hagoromo's chakra".

Also, that same novel confirms that Naruto still possesses the chakra of the other Bijuu. The manga also implies it when Hagoromo tells the Bijuu that Naruto will always be their meeting place due to having their chakra.



cctr9 said:


> sasuke himself said that their powers were gave to them by hagoromo
> the manga made it clear that their rinnegan and six paths sage mode were gave to them by hagoromo
> the FUCKING 4TH DATABOOK says that their powers were gave to them by hagoromo




The manga and the fourth databook only describe their RSM/Rinnegan powers to be "gifts" from Hagoromo. Neither source specifies the upgrades to come from his _chakra_; that's actually just an assumption that NBD users make. For all we know, "Hagoromo's gift" simply means that he unlocked their ability to use those powers after they gained the necessary prerequisites.

It's not all that complicated, really. The combined chakra of all nine Bijuu was obtained by Naruto, partially with Obito's help. The combined chakra of Ashura and Indra was obtained by Sasuke when Kabuto ingrained his body with Hashirama's cells. Both of these things were previously suggested to be the needed prerequisites for Naruto and Sasuke's respective power-ups. In addition, the term "Rikudou no Chikara" is only used when the Yin/Yang seals were emphasized in the dialogue. The only logical conclusion from this is that RSM and Rinnegan aren't reliant on having Hagoromo's chakra directly.


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## LightningForce (Apr 4, 2016)

As almost everybody has already mentioned, Rinnegan Sasuke's Kanseitai: Susano'o is obviously superior to that of EMS/Rinnegan Madara's.

Of course, this is naturally logical since Sasuke received Six Paths chakra from Hagoromo himself.

Now, if you compare Juudara's hypothetical Kanseitai: Susano'o, then it would be equal to if not superior than Rinnegan Sasuke's. Likewise, EMS Sasuke's hypothetical Kanseitai: Susano'o would be less better than EMS Madara's simply because of size, and likely strength.

But each Susano'o is different. Sasuke's can fly whereas Madara's cannot. Madara's is far bigger than Sasuke's.


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> EMS sasuke and BSM naruto can't fly , but that didn't stop juubito from going airborne
> hebi sasuke couldn't fly , but that didn't stop deidara from going airborne
> and so on


yet neither are Madara



Amol said:


> What in the world are you talking about?
> Of course Rinnegan Madara was superior to Hashirama.
> Was that suppose to be a question?
> The sheer strangeness of your argument caught me off guard, I admit.


Rinnegan Madara was equal to Hashirama as when they were. Until Madara started using the Rinnegan Power. Their Megazords had the same difference.



hbcaptain said:


> Read my post I said :
> Madara'sPS = 2 mountains *in the same line*
> Kyubizord = 4 mountains (the 5th isn't the same line) .
> Sasuke's PS = 10 mountains at least , clearly much more since the other meteorites parts are notably bigger .
> ...


Sasuke's attacks
even know
even know
even if we were to say were the meteors fall were mountains, they are only 8 mountains range and Sasuke didn't destroy them in one go.
Madara cuts 6 mountains range in one go with his secondary arms. It wasn't his strength combining with Kyuubi's. It was him. And Edo was in just one line and destroyed everything in that line. 

So no basically they are pretty close.



ARGUS said:


> No his Ps is far superior as feats clearly show.
> Madaras PS best feat is cutting through mountains
> 
> Sasuke cut Madaras CT meteor which is >>>>>>> an average mountain in size
> ...


I answer this one to the other guy over there. I'll say Sasuke base > Madara base but when it comes to perfect Susano'o they are even.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Madara has feats to put his PS on the level of EMS Sasuke's PS. Sasuke's PS sword cut through the Sword of Nunoboko and cut through Juubito, those feats are>>>Anything Madara's PS has done with Kurama's help.
> 
> The meteor feat is ridiculously above anything Madara has done with PS


Unless you are telling Sasuke's incomplete Susano'o > Madara's Perfect Susano'o that logic is stupid. You forget the amp they both had together and the fact that the only thing Juubito can't defend against is Sage Chakra.


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## Android (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> *yet neither are Madara*
> 
> 
> Rinnegan Madara was equal to Hashirama as when they were. Until Madara started using the Rinnegan Power. Their Megazords had the same difference.
> ...



and the others are not hashirama either . Your point ?


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> manga
> even know
> even know
> 
> ...



I admit that I was wrong about Madara's PS being unable to cut down multiple mountains on it's own but that is still vastly inferior to what Sasuke's PS could do considering the destroyed chunks of the meteor Sasuke slashed through was towering over multiple mountain ranges. 



The Undying said:


> As Zef mentioned, he's talking about the _rat hand seal_, not the Yin/Yang seals. Even in Viz's translation, Hagoromo directly says "the seal of the rat" in the panel I provided. He never once mentions anything about his own chakra when he talks about undoing Infinite Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Six Paths Sage Mode/Rikudou Sage Mode has nothing to do with the Bijuu, Jin no Sho (The Fourth Databook) made no mention of that being it's requirement and Asura Otsutsuki was able to use it himself despite never being stated to be a Jinchuriki. He was able to use it because his father gave him the power the same way he gave it to Naruto and Sasuke. By "power" he clearly means his chakra as he had no need to give Asura the Yin and Yang Seals. The cloak Naruto adorns is simply an enhancement of the mode's initial state with the chakra of all of the Bijuu.

Juubito and Juudara used Six Paths Senjutsu through the Six Paths Juubi Coffin Seal while Naruto used it through Six Paths Sage Mode. Both of them had Six Paths Chakra due to becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki which is Hagoromo's own chakra which means they got that from the Juubi as well. In conclusion, Naruto cannot possibly have Rikudou Sage Mode without Six Paths Chakra because that chakra is Hagoromo's own, not the chakra of all of the Bijuu that is separate. Which means Sasuke has it too.


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Six Paths Sage Mode/Rikudou Sage Mode has nothing to do with the Bijuu, Jin no Sho (The Fourth Databook) made no mention of that being it's requirement and Asura Otsutsuki was able to use it himself despite never being stated to be a Jinchuriki. He was able to use it because his father gave him the power the same way he gave it to Naruto and Sasuke. By "power" he clearly means his chakra as he had no need to give Asura the Yin and Yang Seals. The cloak Naruto adorns is simply an enhancement of the mode's initial state with the chakra of all of the Bijuu.




1.) Jin no Sho is extremely vague about the source of Rikudou Sage Mode in general and also mentions nothing about Hagoromo's chakra being a prerequisite for the form, so your first argument doesn't help your case. The only things that even remotely hint at the source is A.) the fact that Obito and Madara were retainers for the Juubi and also possessed Rikudou Senjutsu, despite never having received chakra from Hagoromo himself, and B.) Shikamaru Hiden explicitly attributing Naruto's transcendent abilities as having come from from the fact that he possesses the chakra of all nine Bijuu. That's it. Both of these things imply that Rikudou Senjutsu is derived from the chakra of the Juubi or all nine Bijuu individually.

2.) We don't know _what_ Ashura received from Hagoromo so that's a speculative argument from the get-go. The fact remains that for Naruto and Sasuke in particular, Hagoromo's chakra is only mentioned when the Yin/Yang seals are referred to. Therefore, we can't arbitrarily assume that their RSM/Rinnegan power-ups are bolstered by Hagoromo's chakra when that's never directly stated at all in any official source.



> Juubito and Juudara used Six Paths Senjutsu through the Six Paths Juubi Coffin Seal while Naruto used it through Six Paths Sage Mode. Both of them had Six Paths Chakra due to becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki which is Hagoromo's own chakra which means they got that from the Juubi as well. In conclusion, Naruto cannot possibly have Rikudou Sage Mode without Six Paths Chakra because that chakra is Hagoromo's own, not the chakra of all of the Bijuu that is separate. Which means Sasuke has it too.




1.) The Six Paths Juubi Coffin Seal isn't a transformation, it's just the sealing technique Madara and Obito used to absorb the Juubi into their bodies. It's not a Senjutsu technique and has little to do with Rikudou Senjutsu itself beyond sealing the Juubi.

2.) Hagoromo's own chakra isn't contained within the Juubi. The fourth databook only specifies that becoming a Juubi Jinchuuriki allows the retainer to obtain the power of a "god that shapes the land" and "the same power as the Sage of Six Paths", which is obviously referring to the fact that Hagoromo himself was previously the Juubi Jinchuuriki.


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## Android (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> 1.) Jin no Sho is extremely vague about the source of Rikudou Sage Mode in general and also mentions nothing about Hagoromo's chakra being a prerequisite for the form, so your first argument doesn't help your case. The only things that even remotely hint at the source is A.) the fact that Obito and Madara were retainers for the Juubi, despite never having received chakra directly from Hagoromo himself, and B.) *Shikamaru Hiden* directly attributing Naruto's transcendent abilities as having come from from the fact that he possesses the chakra of all nine Bijuu. That's it.
> 
> 2.) Ashura could have received either the Yin/Yang seals or the chakra of the nine Bijuu, but the fact remains that we don't know _what_ he obtained so that's a speculative argument from the get-go. The fact remains that for Naruto and Sasuke in particular, Hagoromo's chakra is only mentioned when the Yin/Yang seals are referred to. Therefore, we can't arbitrarily assume that their RSM/Rinnegan power-ups are bolstered by Hagoromo's chakra when that's never directly stated at all in any official source.
> 
> ...



so shikamaru hiden a filler novel is more legit than the databook  
but lets for the sake of the argument , ignor the databook 
if you combined the chakra of all the nine bijuu will you get six paths senjusu ? 
no , know why ? cuz you still lacking the gedo mazo 
remember when sasuke combined all the bijuu chakra inside his susanoo did it turn into a six paths senjutsu ? , no 
inb4 naruto's body is the gedo mazo 
also there's this : even know 
sasuke clearly stating that his and naruto's powers are from the rikudou sennin 
also hagoromo himself had the six paths senjutsu before even sealing the juubi , that's the same power he later gave to asura and naruto
unless you wanna say hagoromo had the bijuu chakra sealed inside him even before creating the bijuu 
and hagoromo outright said that he made a mistake by giving his power to only one of his sons asura , and he said that this time he will split his power between naruto and sasuke


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> 1.) Jin no Sho is extremely vague about the source of Rikudou Sage Mode in general and also mentions nothing about Hagoromo's chakra being a prerequisite for the form, so your first argument doesn't help your case. The only things that even remotely hint at the source is A.) the fact that Obito and Madara were retainers for the Juubi and also possessed Rikudou Senjutsu, despite never having received chakra from Hagoromo himself, and B.) Shikamaru Hiden explicitly attributing Naruto's transcendent abilities as having come from from the fact that he possesses the chakra of all nine Bijuu. That's it. Both of these things imply that Rikudou Senjutsu is derived from the chakra of the Juubi or all nine Bijuu individually.
> 
> 2.) We don't know _what_ Ashura received from Hagoromo so that's a speculative argument from the get-go. The fact remains that for Naruto and Sasuke in particular, Hagoromo's chakra is only mentioned when the Yin/Yang seals are referred to. Therefore, we can't arbitrarily assume that their RSM/Rinnegan power-ups are bolstered by Hagoromo's chakra when that's never directly stated at all in any official source.
> 
> ...



Except, Asura Otsutsuki has it too and he isn't a Jinchuriki by any means. No, Hagoromo implied that he had only given power to Asura previously while giving Indra some power too this time. Later, Hagoromo flat-out stated that he had entrusted power to Asura before and this time he gave it to them both. He could not have possibly been talking about the Six Paths Yin-Yang Seals because they're no longer around anymore. So he was clearly talking about his chakra since the words are used interchangeably.

Even before becoming a Jinchuriki, Hagoromo and Hamura both had Gudoudama meaning that they must have had Six Paths Senjutsu and that it is separate from the Juubi or the Bijuu in general. Unless you're saying they had Bijuu chakra beforehand even though they didn't exist yet? 

I'm aware that the seal is a technique used to seal them inside of it, but after they become it's Jinchuriki they're able to use Rikudou Senjutsu. If that were true then they wouldn't be able to use Rikudou Senjutsu because "Rikudou Senjutsu" is Hagoromo's Senjutsu. Obito gave Kakashi not only his own chakra but Six Paths Chakra too. That's how he was able to hurt Kaguya, as only Six Paths Chakra or Senjutsu Chakra can harm a Juubi Jinchuriki.  Kakashi's Raikiri also  turns black like Sasuke's Chidori does when he harms Kaguya. Meaning he must possess the chakra which he got from Obito who got it from becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki. Unless you're saying that Kakashi had the chakra of all of the Bijuu too? There literally isn't anyway around this, Hagoromo gave Asura chakra/power in the past and this time he gave it to both Naruto and Sasuke. He cannot be talking about Ninshuu because he didn't give Naruto and Sasuke that, the only thing he gave them was his chakra/power and new abilities.


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> and the others are not hashirama either . Your point ?


what is not of Hashirama?



Isaiah13000 said:


> I admit that I was wrong about Madara's PS being unable to cut down multiple mountains on it's own but that is still vastly inferior to what Sasuke's PS could do considering the destroyed chunks of the meteor Sasuke slashed through was towering over multiple mountain ranges.


yeah but is not vast difference. Pretty mcuh the only difference is a few mountains. And again the CT that Sasuke cut it was in multiple slashes not in just one. Remember Madara also destroy the meteors. Same meteor that falled was only broken a little after crushing the other one and shaking the country. 




Isaiah13000 said:


> Six Paths Sage Mode/Rikudou Sage Mode has nothing to do with the Bijuu, Jin no Sho (The Fourth Databook) made no mention of that being it's requirement and Asura Otsutsuki was able to use it himself despite never being stated to be a Jinchuriki. He was able to use it because his father gave him the power the same way he gave it to Naruto and Sasuke. By "power" he clearly means his chakra as he had no need to give Asura the Yin and Yang Seals. The cloak Naruto adorns is simply an enhancement of the mode's initial state with the chakra of all of the Bijuu.
> 
> Juubito and Juudara used Six Paths Senjutsu through the Six Paths Juubi Coffin Seal while Naruto used it through Six Paths Sage Mode. Both of them had Six Paths Chakra due to becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki which is Hagoromo's own chakra which means they got that from the Juubi as well. In conclusion, Naruto cannot possibly have Rikudou Sage Mode without Six Paths Chakra because that chakra is Hagoromo's own, not the chakra of all of the Bijuu that is separate. Which means Sasuke has it too.


Databook actually mentions it. And the Juubi is Kaguya's power not Hagoromo.


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Except, Asura Otsutsuki has it too and he isn't a Jinchuriki by any means.



How do you know that Ashura was a user of RSM at all beyond him having a chakra construct that vaguely resembles the one Naruto used at VOTE? Even if he _was_ a user of RSM, how do you know that he didn't inherit some fragments of the Bijuu's chakra from Hagoromo?

Again, this is all speculative territory because you don't know the specifics of what transpired. Hagoromo saying that he passed his "power" on to Ashura (whatever that might be) when he chose him as a successor doesn't tell us anything about Ashura's powers. There's also zero confirmation _anywhere_ that Hagoromo just passed on his chakra to his son as opposed to something else.



> He could not have possibly been talking about the Six Paths Yin-Yang Seals because they're no longer around anymore.



He could easily have been referring to RSM and/or Rinnegan, which - as I explained previously - isn't necessarily bolstered by his chakra as power-ups. The RSM transformation that Naruto received could still be considered a "gift" from Hagoromo without automatically jumping to the conclusion that Hagoromo's chakra was the sole prerequisite, especially when it was never _confirmed_ to be, and I've already explained why we have legitimate reasons to conclude that it's derived from the chakra of the Bijuu.



> Even before becoming a Jinchuriki, Hagoromo and Hamura both had Gudoudama meaning that they must have had Six Paths Senjutsu and that it is separate from the Juubi or the Bijuu in general. Unless you're saying they had Bijuu chakra beforehand even though they didn't exist yet?



We don't know if Rikudou Senjutsu is the only requirement for the Gudoudama, particularly considering that Hagoromo and Hamura inherited some of Kaguya's / the Shinjuu's abilities. Toneri's Tenseigan Chakra Mode furthers this point.



> Obito gave Kakashi not only his own chakra but Six Paths Chakra too. That's how he was able to hurt Kaguya, as only Six Paths Chakra or Senjutsu Chakra can harm a Juubi Jinchuriki. Kakashi's Raikiri also turns black like Sasuke's does when he harms Kaguya. Meaning he must possess the chakra which he got from Obito who got it from becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki. Unless you're saying that Kakashi had the chakra of all of the Bijuu too?



Kakashi's Six Paths chakra was Obito's chakra left over from when he was a Juubi Jinchuuriki, not Hagoromo's chakra (Obito was able to retain some of his powers after having the Juubi removed). I really don't know how many times you want me to repeat it -- the Juubi was never said or even IMPLIED to use Hagoromo's chakra. The entire _reason_ that the Juubi's power is called the "Six Paths" power is precisely _because_ it was identical to Hagoromo's power when he was a Juubi Jinchuuriki himself.

The unsealed Juubi =/= Hagoromo.

The unsealed Juubi = Kaguya.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> what is not of Hashirama?
> 
> 
> yeah but is not vast difference. Pretty mcuh the only difference is a few mountains. And again the CT that Sasuke cut it was in multiple slashes not in just one. Remember Madara also destroy the meteors. Same meteor that falled was only broken a little after crushing the other one and shaking the country.
> ...



What difference does it make? One can cut off the tops off mountains and the other can take down entire meteors. Either way, Sasuke's PS is clearly a whole lot stronger. You'll also have to provide some evidence for what you're saying in that last sentence. 



The Undying said:


> How do you know that Ashura was a user of RSM at all beyond him having a chakra construct that vaguely resembles the one Naruto used at VOTE? Even if he _was_ a user of RSM, how do you know that he didn't inherit some fragments of the Bijuu's chakra from Hagoromo?
> 
> Again, this is all speculative territory because you don't know the specifics of what transpired. Hagoromo saying that he passed his "power" on to Ashura (whatever that might be) when he chose him as a successor doesn't tell us anything about Ashura's powers. There's also zero confirmation _anywhere_ that Hagoromo just passed on his chakra to his son as opposed to something else.
> 
> ...



Hagoromo literally stated that he gave his son Asura his power, and this time he gave Naruto and Sasuke an equal amount of it. He is not referring to the seals, Ninshuu, or anything else but chakra because his chakra is the only thing he gave Naruto and Sasuke in this instance. There is literally nothing else it could possibly have been. Saying it "could have been something else" is you speculating. He said power, power = chakra, it's that simple. There is also no evidence anywhere that bijuu chakra can be passed on genetically, you'll have to get a source for that. 

Toneri's Tenseigan Chakra Mode basically uses Rikudou Senjutsu because it uses Hamura's chakra. There is a difference between Hagoromo and Hamura's chakra but not a significant one considering they can all use TSBs. The only instance in which someone used Gudoudama is if if they were Hagoromo and Hamura themselves, received their power, or were their mother. Unless you have another explanation? They're several characters who use the Gudoudama who have nothing to do with bijuu, and these are all either pre-Jinchuriki Hagoromo himself or some of his family. Bijuu chakra cannot be a requirement if those without it are using it. Isn't that basic logic? 

So what you're saying is is that Kakashi had the chakra of the bijuu in that instance? What about Sasuke? Was he using bijuu chakra too? You're saying that Six Paths Chakra/Power is the same thing as bijuu chakra at this point. So every user of it must possess it then according to your argument.


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> He is not referring to the seals, Ninshuu, or anything else but chakra because his chakra is the only thing he gave Naruto and Sasuke in this instance.


I'm only going to repeat this one more time. If you don't understand, there's nothing I can do to convince you and we're just going around in circles.

1.) Naruto and Sasuke have the prerequisites that were previously established to be required for RSM and Rinnegan -- for Sasuke, it was Ashura's chakra and Indra's chakra combined (as established numerous times in the manga, even by Hagoromo himself) and for Naruto, it was the chakra of all nine Bijuu (as suggested by the fact that Madara and Obito obtained Rikudou Senjutsu from the _Juubi_, which DOES NOT contain Hagoromo's chakra, and the fact that Shikamaru Hiden directly attributes the source of Naruto's transcendence to the chakra of nine Bijuu). They already had the pieces of the puzzle, so it could have been Hagoromo's "gift" in the sense that he assembled those pieces for them and subsequently awakened those powers.

2.) "Rikudou no Chikara" is only mentioned in light of the Yin/Yang seals.

3.) Naruto and Sasuke were able to undo Mugen Tsukuyomi only because they possessed the chakra of the nine Bijuu and the Rinnegan respectively. Again, nothing is said about Hagoromo's chakra.



> Saying it "could have been something else" is you speculating.



Saying "we don't know what it was, there was no confirmation on what it was, it could have been anything or this for example" is a fact by definition, not speculation.



> He said power, power = chakra, it's that simple.



Already refuted by the fact that "Six Paths power" doesn't even always refer to Hagoromo's chakra directly, as Obito proves.



> There is also no evidence anywhere that bijuu chakra can be passed on genetically, you'll have to get a source for that.



Kaguya's RinneSharingan is derived from her consumption of the Shinjuu's fruit. Hagoromo's Rinnegan is derived from Kaguya's RinneSharingan.



> Toneri's Tenseigan Chakra Mode uses Six Paths Senjutsu



Literally speculation until you can provide a source directly stating that to be the case.



> Six Paths Senjutsu = Hagoromo and his family's chakra with senjutsu combined. Unless you have another explanation?



I do, actually. 

The Juubi was said to possess an endless mass of natural energy. Natural energy is a component of Senjutsu. 

Likewise, natural energy from the Juubi is very likely a component of Rikudou Senjutsu. It's a far more reasonable explanation than equating Rikudou Senjutsu to "ordinary Senjutsu combined with Hagoromo's chakra" because Obito's and Madara's obtainment of Rikudou Senjutsu literally comes from their obtainment of the Juubi; they never received chakra from Hagoromo.



> You're saying that Six Paths Chakra/Power is the same thing as bijuu chakra at this point..



No, I'm saying that Six Paths chakra doesn't always refer to Hagoromo's chakra. I'm saying that the whole reason it's called "Six Paths power" in Obito/Kakashi's case is because that's the same power that Hagoromo -- the Sage of Six Paths -- possessed as a Juubi Jinchuuriki. This is not difficult to understand.

You're the one conflating the unsealed Juubi with Hagoromo. You still haven't explained how that would even make sense, by the way.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> I'm only going to repeat this one more time. If you don't understand, there's nothing I can do to convince you and we're just going around in circles.
> 
> 1.) Naruto and Sasuke have the prerequisites that were previously established to be required for RSM and Rinnegan -- for Sasuke, it was Ashura's chakra and Indra's chakra combined (as established numerous times in the manga, even by Hagoromo himself) and for Naruto, it was the chakra of all nine Bijuu (as suggested by the fact that Madara and Obito obtained Rikudou Senjutsu from the _Juubi_, which DOES NOT contain Hagoromo's chakra, and the fact that Shikamaru Hiden directly attributes the source of Naruto's transcendence to the chakra of nine Bijuu).
> 
> ...



1. Then you're saying that pre-Jin Hagoromo, Hamura, Asura, and Toneri all possess the chakra of the nine bijuu. 

2. Chakra and power are the exact same thing. Six Paths Chakra is mentioned outside of the seals, such as when Kakashi used it. 

3. I never said Hagoromo's chakra had anything to do with that. 

4. He said power and power and chakra are the same. 

5. Look above. 

6. That has nothing to do with bijuu chakra, those are kekkei genkai. 

7. So then everyone who uses Gudoudama have the Juubi/Bijuu chakra? 

8. And the power that Juubi Jinchuriki possess is the chakra of all of the bijuu and a large amount of natural energy. If Hagoromo's chakra isn't involved, then the only power that Obito could have given to Kakashi is bijuu chakra mixed with natural energy. Which is clearly false. 

For the last time, Hagoromo said that he gave his son Asura everything and all of his power. He then says that this time he gave Naruto and Sasuke the same amount, Naruto is the only one with bijuu power, not Sasuke, so he must be talking about his own chakra. He even said that he was running low on chakra and could barely maintain his appearance. Asura wasn't a jinchuriki so for him to use the Gudoudama he must have had Hagoromo's chakra because Hagoromo can wield them himself without bijuu chakra. Bijuu chakra isn't a component of the Gudoudama because those without it can use them, and Six Paths Chakra cannot be just Juubi/Bijuu chakra because Kakashi could use it and he quite clearly wasn't  a jinchuriki by any means.


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What difference does it make?


i'm asking what is not Hashirama.



Isaiah13000 said:


> One can cut off the tops off mountains and the other can take down entire meteors. Either way, Sasuke's PS is clearly a whole lot stronger.


Not really, if we go by taking down whole meteors, Madara destroyed the one he created, that shaked around the country and more. That same meteors had smashed the one before that and had destroyed and they weren't really that much big of a mountain




Isaiah13000 said:


> You'll also have to provide some evidence for what you're saying in that last sentence.


before


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> 1. Then you're saying that pre-Jin Hagoromo, Hamura, Asura, and Toneri all possess the chakra of the nine bijuu.



None of those characters were confirmed to be Rikudou Senjutsu users, so no. Ashura is a solid possibility though.



> 2. Chakra and power are the exact same thing. Six Paths Chakra is mentioned outside of the seals, such as when Kakashi used it.



"Power" is not a synonym for chakra. It is a vague term that could refer to anything from a specific attribute to the amount of strength one possesses.

For example, Hagoromo could have simply transferred some leftover Juubi chakra over to Ashura and his statement would still carry the same meaning. Again, WE DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS.



> 7. So then everyone who uses Gudoudama have the Juubi/Bijuu chakra?



Not necessarily, but there are certainly more Gudoudama users that possess Juubi chakra than those who possess Hagoromo's chakra. I'm saying that Rikudou Senjutsu, which is obviously the  product of the Juubi or all nine Bijuu, isn't necessarily always a requirement for Gudoudama as Toneri demonstrates. There are clearly other methods of attainment, such as Tenseigan Chakra Mode.



> 8. And the power that Juubi Jinchuriki possess is the chakra of all of the bijuu and a large amount of natural energy.



No, the chakra of all nine Bijuu combined RESULTS in the Juubi's power and the endless natural energy it possesses. Those are not separate concepts. 

The Rikudou power that Obito gave Kakashi was his own chakra that was drastically strengthened from his time as a Juubi Jinchuuriki, not Hagoromo's chakra. No idea why you keep insisting that the Juubi by itself has Hagoromo's chakra. That's absolute nonsense.



> Asura wasn't a jinchuriki



Again, we don't know anything about Ashura so this is a useless argument.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> None of those characters were confirmed to be Rikudou Senjutsu users, so no. Ashura is a solid possibility though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1.How are they using the Gudoudama then? Asura also wasn't stated to have the chakra of all of the bijuu. If he did, that would have had been stated by Hagoromo when he was explaining everything. Instead, he said he gave his son some of his power and mentioned nothing about him being a jinchuriki of any sorts. 

2. It is in Naruto. 

3. Then how did Hamura have them back when he only had the Byakugan? 

4. So you're now saying that Kakashi had the power of the Juubi which is false. 

5. We know that he got power from his father that clearly wasn't Juubi power considering he gave Sasuke some too and Sasuke doesn't have any Juubi power. Are you seeing what I'm saying? Hagoromo couldn't have given Asura any "leftover Juubi chakra" because he didn't give Naruto or Sasuke that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 4, 2016)

Divell said:


> Not really, if we go by taking down whole meteors, Madara destroyed the one he created, that shaked around the country and more. That same meteors had smashed the one before that and had destroyed and they weren't really that much big of a mountain



Juubi Mads meteors were>>>>Tengai Shinsei ones in size. His PS was about as big as the ones he used the first time, but Sasuke's PS is fucking tiny in comparison to his CT meteors.  Stop with this bullshit


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah: I've already thoroughly explained several of the points you keep touching on, such as why Rikudou Senjutsu isn't always needed to produce Gudoudama (Tenseigan Chakra Mode was never confirmed to utilize Rikudou Senjutsu, for example) amongst other things such as the fact that Kakashi was given Obito's own chakra that was greatly enhanced from his JJ form, not Hagoromo's chakra or the Juubi's chakra directly. You've yet to provide an explanation as to why the unsealed Juubi would possess Hagoromo's chakra, which I find to be an incredibly nonsensical argument. Madara and Obito obtained Rikudou Senjutsu from the Juubi and Naruto was strongly implied to have obtained it from the nine Bijuu according to Shikamaru Hiden, there's no way around that.

This whole debate is becoming circular at this point so I'd rather  we just agree to disagree.


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Juubi Mads meteors were>>>>Tengai Shinsei ones in size. His PS was about as big as the ones he used the first time, but Sasuke's PS is fucking tiny in comparison to his CT meteors.  Stop with this bullshit



compare what he cut with the mountains Madara cuts. not to mention Sasuke's Susano'o is smaller than Madara's.


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## Bonly (Apr 4, 2016)

Both there PS is the same more or less but Sasuke has Rikudou chakra backing his up so yeah I'd say that there is a decent gap between the two.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> Isaiah: I've already thoroughly explained several of the points you keep touching on, such as why Rikudou Senjutsu isn't always needed to produce Gudoudama (Tenseigan Chakra Mode was never confirmed to utilize Rikudou Senjutsu, for example) amongst other things such as the fact that Kakashi was given Obito's own chakra that was greatly enhanced from his JJ form, not Hagoromo's chakra or the Juubi's chakra directly. You've yet to provide an explanation as to why the unsealed Juubi would possess Hagoromo's chakra, which I find to be an incredibly nonsensical argument. Madara and Obito obtained Rikudou Senjutsu from the Juubi and Naruto was strongly implied to have obtained it from the nine Bijuu according to Shikamaru Hiden, there's no way around that.
> 
> This whole debate is becoming circular at this point so I'd rather  we just agree to disagree.



Obito's own chakra isn't what let Kakashi hurt Kaguya, it was Six Paths Chakra in general that allowed him to hurt her, the same chakra Sasuke used that let him hurt Madara. It doesn't matter how "enhanced" it was you need Six Paths Chakra or Senjutsu Chakra to hurt Juubi Jinchurikis. That's why that part of your argument doesn't make sense. The Juubi would possess some of Hagoromo's own chakra because it use to be inside of Hagoromo and Hagoromo did not give his son the Juubi's power but rather his own power like he said he did to Naruto and Sasuke. Hagoromo's power and the Ten-Tails' power are two separate things.


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## The Undying (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Obito's own chakra isn't what let Kakashi hurt Kaguya, it was Six Paths Chakra in general that allowed him to hurt her, the same chakra Sasuke used that let him hurt Madara. It doesn't matter how "enhanced" it was you need Six Paths Chakra or Senjutsu Chakra to hurt Juubi Jinchurikis. That's why that part of your argument doesn't make sense.




Obito's enhanced chakra IS Six Paths chakra. The latter is known as "Six Paths" chakra because it provides Obito with the same powers Hagoromo had as the Juubi Jinchuuriki, as Obito himself stated while in his JJ form.

See also: Obito calling himself the "Second Sage of Six Paths" on multiple occasions.



> The Juubi would possess some of Hagoromo's own chakra because it use to be inside of Hagoromo




....wow. Not even going to dignify that fanfiction with a response, honestly.

And no, Hagoromo actually kept some of the Juubi's power because he was still said to be the pillar of communication for the Bijuu like Naruto. Any remaining fragments of Juubi chakra that was left behind in his body was most certainly his power.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> Obito's enhanced chakra IS Six Paths chakra. The latter is known as "Six Paths" chakra because it provides Obito with the same powers Hagoromo had as the Juubi Jinchuuriki, as Obito himself stated while in his JJ form.
> 
> See also: Obito calling himself the "Second Sage of Six Paths" on multiple occasions.
> 
> ...



The chakra Obito gave Kakashi is a mixture of his own and Six Paths chakra, Obito's own chakra is not replaced by it. He said that because he obtained power over the Juubi, and it may be "fanfiction" but is the only explanation we have. Most importantly, if Sasuke did not receive half of Hagoromo's chakra because you believe that chakra was used for the seals. Then how was Sasuke powerful enough to take control of all of the bijuu with a glance, fly, combat SPSM Naruto, and even be stated to be on Hagoromo's level by Kurama if all he has to rely on is his own power to do this? Or what about when as an adult he is capable of traversing Kaguya's dimensions something that was noted to cost enormous amounts of chakra and take a toll even on Kaguyra herself? Are you really going to argue that Sasuke with just the Rinnegan and the small portion of Hagoromo's chakra that he would unlock via getting Hashirama's cells is enough to let him do all of that?


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## bhargab (Apr 4, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Obito's own chakra isn't what let Kakashi hurt Kaguya, it was Six Paths Chakra in general that allowed him to hurt her, the same chakra Sasuke used that let him hurt Madara. It doesn't matter how "enhanced" it was you need Six Paths Chakra or Senjutsu Chakra to hurt Juubi Jinchurikis. That's why that part of your argument doesn't make sense. The Juubi would possess some of Hagoromo's own chakra because it use to be inside of Hagoromo and Hagoromo did not give his son the Juubi's power but rather his own power like he said he did to Naruto and Sasuke. Hagoromo's power and the Ten-Tails' power are two separate things.



hagoromo's power and ten tails power should not be completely separate bcuz kaguya only got vast chakra reserves after eating the chakra fruit and that power directly went to hagoromo and humura..that means that hagoromo had the same chakra as  the jubi


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

After Kaguya merged with the Shinju her chakra must have had changed because her sons didn't recognize her, so the Juubi and Hagoromo's chakra must still be different despite logically being similar since the Juubi is just Kaguya + Shinju and Kaguya passed on some of her chakra to her sons.


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## Raiken (Apr 4, 2016)

The Undying said:


> As Zef mentioned, he's talking about the _rat hand seal_, not the Yin/Yang seals. Even in Viz's translation, Hagoromo directly says "the seal of the rat" in the panel I provided. He never once mentions anything about his own chakra when he talks about undoing Infinite Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The Undying said:


> 1.) Jin no Sho is extremely vague about the source of Rikudou Sage Mode in general and also mentions nothing about Hagoromo's chakra being a prerequisite for the form, so your first argument doesn't help your case. The only things that even remotely hint at the source is A.) the fact that Obito and Madara were retainers for the Juubi and also possessed Rikudou Senjutsu, despite never having received chakra from Hagoromo himself, and B.) Shikamaru Hiden explicitly attributing Naruto's transcendent abilities as having come from from the fact that he possesses the chakra of all nine Bijuu. That's it. Both of these things imply that Rikudou Senjutsu is derived from the chakra of the Juubi or all nine Bijuu individually.
> 
> 2.) We don't know _what_ Ashura received from Hagoromo so that's a speculative argument from the get-go. The fact remains that for Naruto and Sasuke in particular, Hagoromo's chakra is only mentioned when the Yin/Yang seals are referred to. Therefore, we can't arbitrarily assume that their RSM/Rinnegan power-ups are bolstered by Hagoromo's chakra when that's never directly stated at all in any official source.


At least some people on this forum understands how things actually are.

This this this... Plus most of The Undying's other posts.


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## Divell (Apr 4, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Both there PS is the same more or less but Sasuke has Rikudou chakra backing his up so yeah I'd say that there is a decent gap between the two.



yeah but is not huge as people suggest, I would say Sasuke destroys 8 mountains in one swim, Madara destroys 6. In number I calculated that to destroy the meteor in one swim it would be 23.9 Teratones, Madara destroyed Hashirama's woods in one swim, who could no-sell Kyuubi Prime's Bijuu Dama, Yang Kyuubi and Hachibi's combined bijuu dama ended in 32 gigatons at the very least. Just so you know how high is Madara. From not even making a dent, to cutting them like butter, that's the type of attack Madara has. Is not very different as people like to argue.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 4, 2016)

Those meteors are bigger than the fucking base of the Shinju. They literally dwarf it several times over with their size. PS is fucking *TINY* compared to the size of the Shinju


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## Raiken (Apr 4, 2016)

Each one is about the size of a mountain range.
About the size of 5/6 mountains each.

I've been doing damage size comparisons for many years, remember all those craters from the final battle.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Divell (Apr 5, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> Each one is about the size of a mountain range.
> About the size of 5/6 mountains each.
> 
> I've been doing damage size comparisons for many years, remember all those craters from the final battle.
> ...


so technically speaking they are not that far, the metoers were 5 or 6 the size of a mountain, Madara cuts 6 mountains on one swim.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 5, 2016)

Stop Bullshitting dude. Juubi Mads CT Meteors>Shinju>>>mountains>PS in size

Sasuke cut them in half with one slice and those things also have fucking momentum from falling, unlike a stationary mountain.


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## Android (Apr 5, 2016)

those meteors are 6-7 mountin saize
the chunkes of those meteors are 6-7 mountain size

i hope you guys make up your mind , and get your shit toghether


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## hbcaptain (Apr 5, 2016)

If Madara cut 6 moutains in one swing relying on Kyubizord which is physically much stronger than Madarai's PS alone . Then Sasuke cut 10*10=100 moutains in one swing (10 mountains in lenght and 10 in widght) , that means he is in a whole another level compared to EMS Madara .


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## Divell (Apr 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> those meteors are 6-7 mountin saize
> the chunkes of those meteors are 6-7 mountain size
> 
> i hope you guys make up your mind , and get your shit toghether


i'm counting the size of the chucks that falled, that Sasuke didn't cut in one swim, it were several ones. Those were like 7 or 8, Madara can easily cut hat much.



hbcaptain said:


> If Madara cut 6 moutains in one swing relying on Kyubizord which is physically much stronger than Madarai's PS alone . Then Sasuke cut 10*10=100 moutains in one swing (10 mountains in lenght and 10 in widght) , that means he is in a whole another level compared to EMS Madara .


He was simply covering the Kyuubi, nothing more. Kyuubi was weaker than PS and Hashirama's Golems.

And for the record in the video game is seen Madara destroying those same mountains by himself


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## hbcaptain (Apr 5, 2016)

Divell said:


> He was simply covering the Kyuubi, nothing more. Kyuubi was weaker than PS and Hashirama's Golems.
> 
> And for the record in the video game is seen Madara destroying those same mountains by himself


No according to DB , the Golem is only Kyubi's level in physical strengh plus the Kyubizord=Kyubi+PS's strengh , apparently the monster is about two times stronger than PS alone . Yet according to feats , Rikudo Sasuke's PS is at least 10 times stronger .


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## Divell (Apr 5, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> No according to DB , the Golem is only Kyubi's level in physical strengh plus the Kyubizord=Kyubi+PS's strengh , apparently the monster is about two times stronger than PS alone . Yet according to feats , Rikudo Sasuke's PS is at least 10 times stronger .



databook doesn't say anything and in the manga itself it Hashirama says he is only covering it as a armor, he isn't using the kyuubi's strength as is a swim from his secondary arm. And no by feats they are still pretty close.


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## hbcaptain (Apr 5, 2016)

The DB said Kyubi=Golem , and common sens say Golem=PS=Kyubi in physical strengh , the DB is also saying that the Kyubizord is a combo using both Kurama and Susano'o's strenghs , Kyubizor = Kurama+PS muscles , it's just natural its strengh is enhanced twice . The feats are pretty clear :
Madara's PS alone = he cut two moutains .
Madara's Kyubizord = four moutains on the same line (6 mountains overall) .
Rikudo Sasuke's PS = 10 moutains in widght and 10 in lenght => 100 moutains overall .
In other words : Rikudo Sasuke PS>>>>Madara's Kyubizord>Madara's PS .


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 5, 2016)

Okay for real though is this dude trying to argue that EMS Madara's basic ass PS is on the same level as Rinnegan Sasuke's that is empowered by 50% of Hagoromo's chakra?

like really???


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## Divell (Apr 5, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> The DB said Kyubi=Golem , and common sens say Golem=PS=Kyubi in physical strengh , the DB is also saying that the Kyubizord is a combo using both Kurama and Susano'o's strenghs , Kyubizor = Kurama+PS muscles , it's just natural its strengh is enhanced twice . The feats are pretty clear :
> Madara's PS alone = he cut two moutains .
> Madara's Kyubizord = four moutains on the same line (6 mountains overall) .
> Rikudo Sasuke's PS = 10 moutains in widght and 10 in lenght => 100 moutains overall .
> In other words : Rikudo Sasuke PS>>>>Madara's Kyubizord>Madara's PS .



show me the page that says so.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Okay for real though is this dude trying to argue that EMS Madara's basic ass PS is on the same level as Rinnegan Sasuke's that is empowered by 50% of Hagoromo's chakra?
> 
> like really???



no, read my comments, I'm saying the difference is not that huge.


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## Bakawaii (Apr 5, 2016)

Sasuke is an Indra's reincarnation like Madara. With Rinnegan and has a lot more Rikudou chakra than Madara. Since Sasuke received his rinnegan from Hagoromo.

Rinnegan Sasuke with a weaker Susano'o than EMS Madara?
This is a Joke.


Madara's biggest achievement in manga with his Susanoo  was cut in  a half two mountains

Madara PS is  smaller than the mountains at the battlefield :



*Spoiler*: __ 











The Yellow and red arrows are the same mountains madara destroyed at this place.
Sasuke sliced rocks that atleast fit 10 mountains




I still think Madara's PS can't fly like Sasuke because his "wings" are completely different and smaller compared to Sasuke PS.

Madara:



Sasuke:



So Sasuke is superior in every aspect like  agility, strength and power..
Madara PS is Fodder compared to Sasuke


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## Android (Apr 5, 2016)

Bakawaii said:


> Sasuke is an Indra's reincarnation like Madara. With Rinnegan and has a lot more Rikudou chakra than Madara. Since Sasuke received his rinnegan from Hagoromo.
> 
> 
> Rinnegan Sasuke with a weaker Susano'o than EMS Madara?
> ...



this .
also pretty sure the databook stats that all PS can fly


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## Divell (Apr 5, 2016)

Bakawaii said:


> Sasuke is an Indra's reincarnation like Madara. With Rinnegan and has a lot more Rikudou chakra than Madara. Since Sasuke received his rinnegan from Hagoromo.
> 
> Rinnegan Sasuke with a weaker Susano'o than EMS Madara?
> This is a Joke.
> ...



Madara actually cuts 6 mountains and destroys Hashirama's wood hands. Same hands that can no-sell Kyuubi Prime's Bijuu-Dama.


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## Android (Apr 5, 2016)

Divell said:


> Madara actually cuts 6 mountains and destroys Hashirama's wood hands. Same hands that can no-sell Kyuubi Prime's Bijuu-Dama.



madara's susanoo blade was also caught with two wood hands , didn't it ? 
and the mokujin catched a non-charged standard BD , from a very short distance , but once the BD blow up, the mokujin got destroyed .


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 5, 2016)

Divell said:


> no, read my comments, I'm saying the difference is not that huge.



Thats still dumb. Sasuke is a god tier, any technique of his will shit on any non-god tier character


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 5, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Thats still dumb. Sasuke is a god tier, any technique of his will shit on any non-god tier character



Sasuke's fireball that only gave shin jr burns>any top tier tech?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 5, 2016)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Sasuke's fireball that only gave shin jr burns>any top tier tech?



hello the outlier central known as Gaiden. If Sasuke's chidori can pierce Juubi Mads I dont see why his fireball couldnt burn him.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 5, 2016)

Do people still not understand that Naruto and Sasuke were rusty, Sasuke was exhausted because he had just finished *hopping Kaguya's dimensions*, Naruto was focusing on protecting the children, and that neither of them wanted to kill Shin (until probably at the end) in all scenarios in Gaiden? Their performance in the Boruto film makes up for their entire performance in Gaiden anyway and only further proves that they were holding back the whole time. Stop bringing Gaiden up in actual arguments.


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## Raiken (Apr 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> this .
> also pretty sure the databook stats that all PS can fly


Then the databook is clearly wrong, yet again... 


Also I take back what I said before about being 6 Mountain sized, those Meteors are 10-15 mountain sized, maybe bigger.
This is a silly argument anyway, Sasuke's PS while battling JJ Madara is obviously going to be fairly superior to Edo-Madara's.


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## Raiken (Apr 6, 2016)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Sasuke's fireball that only gave shin jr burns>any top tier tech?


This so much, ahahaha.


OneSimpleAnime said:


> hello the outlier central known as Gaiden. If Sasuke's chidori can pierce Juubi Mads I dont see why his fireball couldnt burn him.


In the same way Sasuke's PS slashes seem much smaller at VotE2 compared to battling Madara.
Ahhhh... more things pointing towards Sasuke getting weaker after loosing his Yin Seal containing Hagaromo's Chakra. :^) :^) :^)


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## hbcaptain (Apr 6, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> Then the databook is clearly wrong, yet again...
> 
> 
> Also I take back what I said before about being 6 Mountain sized, those Meteors are 10-15 mountain sized, maybe bigger.
> This is a silly argument anyway, Sasuke's PS while battling JJ Madara is obviously going to be fairly superior to Edo-Madara's.


You're wrong the meteros are 10 x 10 moutains that means Sasuke cut 100 moutains at once , while PS cut only two in its circle and the Kyubizord only 6 .


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## The Undying (Apr 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The chakra Obito gave Kakashi is a mixture of his own and Six Paths chakra, Obito's own chakra is not replaced by it. He said that because he obtained power over the Juubi




I derived my argument from the fact that Kakashi said Obito's doujutsu strength was enhanced from the time he had Six Paths power. Either way, you're arguing semantics here -- my point is that Kakashi receiving chakra from Obito wouldn't automatically make him a Jinchuuriki even if it was partially the Juubi's chakra, especially when we've seen non-Jinchuuriki receive partial Bijuu chakra from Jinchuuriki before.

Whatever the case, it's certainly not _Hagoromo's_ chakra.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Most importantly, if Sasuke did not receive half of Hagoromo's chakra because you believe that chakra was used for the seals. Then how was Sasuke powerful enough to take control of all of the bijuu with a glance, fly, combat SPSM Naruto, and even be stated to be on Hagoromo's level by Kurama if all he has to rely on is his own power to do this? Or what about when as an adult he is capable of traversing Kaguya's dimensions something that was noted to cost enormous amounts of chakra and take a toll even on Kaguyra herself? Are you really going to argue that Sasuke with just the Rinnegan and the small portion of Hagoromo's chakra that he would unlock via getting Hashirama's cells is enough to let him do all of that?




Yes, in the same way Sasuke was powerful enough to do things above and beyond what he could possibly do with a normal Sharingan when he obtained his Mangekyou Sharingan, or in the same way Madara could do things above and beyond what he could possibly do with a Mangekyou Sharingan when he obtained his Rinnegan. Tomoe Rinnegan obviously isn't just a vanilla Rinnegan and it stands to reason that upgraded doujutsu powers afford much stronger abilities than what the normal version would offer.

Regarding Amenominaka, Black Zetsu only mentioned that repeated uses of the technique was starting to take a toll on Kaguya's chakra. Obviously her reserves were massive enough for her to repeatedly spam that ability and use it instantaneously when the fight started.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Do people still not understand that Naruto and Sasuke were rusty, Sasuke was exhausted because he had just finished *hopping Kaguya's dimensions*, Naruto was focusing on protecting the children, and that neither of them wanted to kill Shin (until probably at the end) in all scenarios in Gaiden?




The Gaiden posits two, and only two, explanations for their weaker performance: Naruto's rustiness and Sasuke's weakened doujutsu. Their unwillingness to kill Shin wouldn't have any bearing on their ability to just blitz him and end the fight right there if they were capable of doing that. No one is arguing that Sasuke isn't a god tier, but it makes no sense that ALL of Sasuke's Ninjutsu techniques (including his base ones) automatically shit on all non-god tiers when we have direct evidence to show otherwise.


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## Divell (Apr 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Thats still dumb. Sasuke is a god tier, any technique of his will shit on any non-god tier character


Sasuke and Naruto are top/high tier, Kaguya, Hagoromo and probaly hamura are god tier. such as Kenpachi is a high tier while Yhwach being god tier, or Goku and Vegeta being high tier while Whis and his sister being god tier.



cctr9 said:


> madara's susanoo blade was also caught with two wood hands , didn't it ?
> and the mokujin catched a non-charged standard BD , from a very short distance , but once the BD blow up, the mokujin got destroyed .


yes, twice, but it was caught not stopped, it was skill not power. And BD destroyed the dragon which is equivalent to normal susano'o.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 6, 2016)

The Undying said:


> I derived my argument from the fact that Kakashi said Obito's doujutsu strength was enhanced from the time he had Six Paths power. Either way, you're arguing semantics here -- my point is that Kakashi receiving chakra from Obito wouldn't automatically make him a Jinchuuriki even if it was partially the Juubi's chakra, especially when we've seen non-Jinchuuriki receive partial Bijuu chakra from Jinchuuriki before.
> 
> Whatever the case, it's certainly not _Hagoromo's_ chakra.
> 
> ...



You believe that Hagoromo's chakra was in the Yin and Yang Seals and that it was used to enhance Naruto and Sasuke's abilities correct? Well then, when Sasuke used Hagoromo's chakra, his Chidori became black which he called "Six Paths Power". Later, when Kakashi uses his Raikiri it becomes black after receiving what he too calls "Rikudou's Power" from Obito. Meaning, that they obviously used the same power/chakra which is why their respective Raiton turned black and why their Doujutsu were enhanced. This right here proves that Obito must have had received Hagoromo's Six Paths Chakra from the Juubi and he later gave some to Kakashi since we know for a fact that Sasuke had Six Paths Chakra back when he had the Yin Seal and later Kakashi can use it too. Additionally, Obito didn't have the chakra of any of the tailed beasts leftover because he was no longer the Juubi Jinchuriki and the small amount of chakra he took from Shukaku and Gyuki was transferred to Naruto. So the "Six Paths Power" that Kakashi got once again couldn't have been the Juubi's power but rather Hagoromo's own that is continuously being implied to be in the Juubi. Further more, all of those people received Kurama's chakra cloaks, the chakra was on top of them enhancing their abilities. The chakra was not directly transferred inside of their bodies, it is a different scenario.

Also, just because Sasuke's Chidori was no longer black afterwards doesn't mean he lost the Six Paths Chakra. This is evident that even while still having the Yin Seal his Chidori was not black even while using it in the same hand that has the Yin Seal moments after using the initial Chidori. 

None of that is even *slightly* comparable, Sasuke stated that traversing Kaguya's dimensions uses up a large amount of chakra. So much, that his Rinnegan was weakened and he couldn't even use his EMS at all. Black Zetsu stated that traversing dimensions costs massive amounts of chakra in general. Kakashi, likened the feat to creating Genjutsu.. Kaguya and Sasuke may do it differently, but both of them possesses the power to traverse the dimensions which are later shown to be planets. 

Even Obito with Kamui in both eyes and leftover Six Paths Chakra couldn't hop Kaguya's dimensions by himself, he had to synchronize his own Doujutsu with Kaguya's portals to do it and it took an enormous toll on him. Saying that Sasuke with solely his own power, being able to do all of this, as well as what he did here being stated to put him on the same level as Hagoromo is completely nonsensical. Jin no Sho only refers to Sasuke's Rinnegan as the Rinnegan anyway, the only reason it looks different is because it allows him to use his EMS and Rinnegan powers at once. Other than that, it is the same as any other Rinnegan. Doujutsu do not enormously enhance your chakra reserves either, so for Sasuke to do that means that he must be using chakra from another source unless you're going to continuously drag on a ludicrous argument that Sasuke with his own power is capable of performing god-tier feats. 

I was never trying to argue that Sasuke's base techniques shits on all non-god tiers. I'm just saying that in this scenario, Sasuke's PS and Madara's PS are not comparable to one another in terms of power based off of feats and portrayal.


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## The Undying (Apr 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> This right here proves that Obito must have had received Hagoromo's Six Paths Chakra from the Juubi and he later gave some to Kakashi since we know for a fact that Sasuke had some Six Paths Chakra back when he had the Yin Seal and later Kakashi can use it too.




The technique having a black coloration in itself proves absolutely nothing unless you believe that Sasuke's CS2 state from Part 1 contains Hagoromo's chakra too.

I like how you keep insisting that the Juubi contained Hagoromo's chakra, by the way. You haven't provided a modicum of anything solid that would remotely suggest this because nothing implies it at all; it's purely fanfiction on your part and the fact that you have to induce a fanfiction argument just to construe a rebuttal is honestly just hilarious and desperate.



> The chakra was not directly transferred inside of their bodies




Yes it was. The dialogue makes that perfectly clear when it's stated that Naruto had to specifically align and fill in their personal chakra signatures to transfer the chakra. He didn't just form a bubble around them and call it a day, the shrouds sprouted from their bodies _after_ Naruto touched their hands because they borrowed his chakra.



> None of that is even *slightly* comparable, Sasuke stated that traversing Kaguya's dimensions uses up a large amount of chakra. So much, that his Rinnegan was weakened and he couldn't even use his EMS at all. Black Zetsu stated that traversing dimensions costs massive amounts of chakra in general. Kakashi, likened the feat to Genjutsu.. Kaguya and Sasuke may do it differently, but both of them possesses the power to traverse the dimensions which are later shown to be planets.




I never said that Sasuke and Kaguya didn't have the same ability, I just said that Sasuke's version of Amenominaka was a technique of his tomoe Rinnegan.



> Jin no Sho only refers to Sasuke's Rinnegan as the Rinnegan anyway, the only reason it looks different is because it allows him to use his EMS and Rinnegan powers at once. Other than that, it is the same as any other Rinnegan.




Sasuke specifically attributed his space-time abilities to his Rinnegan, not an alternative chakra source, so this is false right from the get-go. When have you seen characters like Nagato or Madara use Amenotejikara or Amenominaka?



> Doujutsu do not enormously enhance your chakra reserves either.




I never said that either. My point was specifically that upgraded doujutsu abilities provide significantly stronger powers, as shown multiple times. We don't know exactly how much chakra Amenominaka drains other than the fact that it's said to be "a lot of chakra", and that Kaguya can spam it (unlike Sasuke) due to her enormous reserves.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 6, 2016)

The Undying said:


> The technique having a black coloration in itself proves absolutely nothing unless you believe that Sasuke's CS2 state from Part 1 contains Hagoromo's chakra too.
> 
> I like how you keep insisting that the Juubi contained Hagoromo's chakra, by the way. You haven't provided a modicum of anything solid that would remotely suggest this because nothing implies it at all; it's purely fanfiction on your part and the fact that you have to induce a fanfiction argument just to construe a rebuttal is honestly just hilarious and desperate.
> 
> ...



I agree that the coloration doesn't matter, that's why I brought the argument up myself and debunked it to avoid you bringing it up yourself. There is no fan-fictional scenario, Sasuke and Kakashi factually do not have any of the Juubi's power and they both wielded what they called "Six Paths Power" that greatly enhanced their abilities and allowed them to harm Juubi Jinchurikis and Kaguya. Sasuke factually got the Six Paths Power from Hagoromo, so it is his power that they're wielding. The process is still clearly different, as they weren't Jinchuriki by any means of the word and they still exhibited signs that a Jinhuriki would have. Obito and Kakashi exhibited actually nothing to suggest that the "Six Paths Power" is the Juubi's power itself anyway.

So? Madara's Limbo is attributed to his Rinnegan, does Sasuke have Limbo too? Both Sasuke and Madara are natural Rinnegan users who have the basic Six Paths Jutsu and one additional individual ability unique to each other's Rinnegan. Nagato and Obito couldn't use Limbo because they're not it's original wielders, and Momoshiki is an anomaly altogether. Sasuke's Rinnegan is a standard Rinnegan, the only difference is the appearance. 

You aren't getting it. In order for Sasuke to even use his own mimic of Amenominaka means that he has to have Hagoromo's chakra due to the sheer scale of that Jutsu. Obito even with Six Paths Chakra could not traverse her dimensions on his own. The Jutsu uses up enormous amounts of chakra, so much that not even Kaguya: The Progenitor of Chakra cannot use it without it affecting her reserves and slowing her down despite her also being linked to the Infinite Tsukuyomi that was draining the chakra of everyone on Earth that she had access too. Yet Sasuke, without any Six Paths Chakra (except for a fraction even less than Obito's), is also able to traverse them himself according to your logic. Sasuke attributing his powers to his Rinnegan directly includes Hagoromo since he is the one that give him the Rinnegan and it's Amenotejikara.


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## Itachi san88 (Apr 6, 2016)

Rikudou Sasuke PS>>EMS Madara PS

Hypothetical Rikudou Madara PS>Rikudou Sasuke PS

EMS Madara PS>>EMS Sasuke PS



> It does annoy me when peoples entire case for an argument is "insert Rikudou here".


Because is true lol. And yes, all PS can fly.


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## The Undying (Apr 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> There is no fan-fictional scenario




Your entire argument relies on a fanfictional scenario. You think that the Juubi contained Hagoromo's chakra, despite that never having been implied at any point in the manga or the databooks or anything else (in fact, Obito specifically said that his Six Paths powers came from the Juubi). You think that the "sheer scale" of Amenominaka is too much for Sasuke's own reserves to handle, despite the fact that it was never specified how great the chakra cost for the technique _is_ in the first place other than it simply costing a lot of chakra (even though it exhausts Sasuke after likely just two or three uses and that Kaguya could easily spam it at the beginning of the fight). You think that Sasuke's space-time abilities come from Hagoromo's chakra, despite him attributing them to his tomoe Rinnegan and _only ever_ to his tomoe Rinnegan. You think that one single instance of Obito's dimensional traversal is even remotely relevant, despite the fact that Kamui isn't Amenominaka and might require significantly more chakra to travel to the other dimensions than a completely different space-time technique that is already costly by default, and also despite the fact that Obito _already_ possessed Six Paths chakra.

Honestly, you don't have a single leg to stand on. You have to make baseless inferences from literally nothing altogether for your argument to make any sense at all, which makes this whole discussion pointless. I'm pretty much done arguing at this point.


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## hbcaptain (Apr 6, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> Rikudou Sasuke PS>>EMS Madara PS
> 
> Hypothetical Rikudou Madara PS>Rikudou Sasuke PS
> 
> ...


Euh no the manga said Sasuke has better potential than Madara (according to Oro) , so :
Prime EMS Sasuke PS>VoTE Madara PS .

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 6, 2016)

The Undying said:


> Your entire argument relies on a fanfictional scenario. You think that the Juubi contained Hagoromo's chakra, despite that never having been implied at any point in the manga or the databooks or anything else (in fact, Obito specifically said that his Six Paths powers came from the Juubi). You think that the "sheer scale" of Amenominaka is too much for Sasuke's own reserves to handle, despite the fact that it was never specified how great the chakra cost for the technique _is_ in the first place other than it simply costing a lot of chakra (even though it exhausts Sasuke after likely just two or three uses and that Kaguya could easily spam it at the beginning of the fight). You think that Sasuke's space-time abilities come from Hagoromo's chakra, despite him attributing them to his tomoe Rinnegan and _only ever_ to his tomoe Rinnegan. You think that one single instance of Obito's dimensional traversal is even remotely relevant, despite the fact that Kamui isn't Amenominaka and might require significantly more chakra to travel to the other dimensions than a completely different space-time technique that is already costly by default, and also despite the fact that Obito _already_ possessed Six Paths chakra.
> 
> Honestly, you don't have a single leg to stand on. You have to make baseless inferences from literally nothing altogether for your argument to make any sense at all, which makes this whole discussion pointless. I'm pretty much done arguing at this point.



Sasuke and Kakashi both used Six Path Power, which we know is Hagoromo's chakra because that was what Hagoromo gave to Sasuke as stated by Sasuke himself when he used the Yin Seal that Hagoromo gave him. When Obito refers to him getting the Six Paths Power from the Juubi he is referring to Hagoromo's chakra, because he doesn't have the Juubi left him in at all so he obviously couldn't have had it's power and Six Paths Power is Hagoromo's. 

The chakra cost is never specified for 99% of Jutsu, so that isn't an argument. Sasuke got his tomoe Rinnegan from Hagoromo, are you retarded? Obito possessing Six Paths Chakra and being unable to hop dimensions himself is the whole point I am making. So Sasuke clearly must have it to be able to do something so costly. Both Obito and Sasuke's techniques are separate from Amenominaka, so they're in the same situation. 

Sasuke's performance, Sasuke and Kakashi both using a power that is confirmed as Hagoromo's, and Hagoromo's own statement is what has already confirmed that he gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra and that they both still have it. Narutopedia also agrees that they both were given his chakra, and it is filled with many experienced editors and translators (who happen to be more reliable than a lot of the users I've seen here) who have read the databooks too.  It isn't my fault if people are still incapable of grasping and understanding such simple concepts. But I agree, let's forget this argument, it's clearly not worth having since you cannot admit that you're wrong here.


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## hbcaptain (Apr 6, 2016)

[/QUOTE]

*Spoiler*: _Say that to Mr.Kishi_


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 6, 2016)

EMS Sasuke's PS still wasn't stronger than Madara's PS was though. His might've been greater by the time he had become an adult but at that point it was clearly quite inferior.


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## Android (Apr 6, 2016)

*Spoiler*: _Say that to Mr.Kishi_ 






[/QUOTE]

considering you can't even freaking understand your the scan you posted , i'll explain it to 
one he said one day you will surpass him , *one day* , means at that time sasuke with his EMS was still behind madara 
and two , EMS sasuke PS is featless , can give us any feat for it ? , of course you can't 
oh and three : [/QUOTE]


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## hbcaptain (Apr 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> EMS Sasuke's PS still wasn't stronger than Madara's PS was though. His might've been greater by the time he had become an adult but at that point it was clearly quite inferior.


Agree with this . 
In the same time , the manga clearly stated Prime Naruto and Sasuke with many years of training  stronger than VoTE Madara&Hashirama .



cctr9 said:


> *Spoiler*: _Say that to Mr.Kishi_



considering you can't even freaking understand your the scan you posted , i'll explain it to 
one he said one day you will surpass him , *one day* , means at that time sasuke with his EMS was still behind madara 
and two , EMS sasuke PS is featless , can give us any feat for it ? , of course you can't 
oh and three : [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
That's why I said "Prime" Sasuke , learn to read my posts before blablating nonsens .


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## Android (Apr 6, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Agree with this .
> In the same time , the manga clearly stated Prime Naruto and Sasuke with many years of training  stronger than VoTE Madara&Hashirama .



prime naruto and prime sasuke are the rinnegan and the six paths sage mode 
they didn't need training to surpass madara and hashirama , they did that with the powers they got from hagoromo 
however you can say BSM naruto from the last for example is far far above hashirama


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## hbcaptain (Apr 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> prime naruto and prime sasuke are the rinnegan and the six paths sage mode
> they didn't need training to surpass madara and hashirama , they did that with the powers they got from hagoromo
> however you can say BSM naruto from the last for example is far far above hashirama


I was talking about the eventual Prime Sasuke without the Rinnegan .
And agree , BSM Nruto from the last is far above hashirama .


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## Android (Apr 6, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> considering you can't even freaking understand your the scan you posted , i'll explain it to
> one he said one day you will surpass him , *one day* , means at that time sasuke with his EMS was still behind madara
> and two , EMS sasuke PS is featless , can give us any feat for it ? , of course you can't
> oh and three :


[/QUOTE]
That's why I said "Prime" Sasuke , learn to read my posts before blablating nonsens .[/QUOTE]

you need to fucking explain yourself more before posting , you said EMS sasuke , and here in the NBD EMS sasuke means the war arc version 
if you are talking about adult sasuke you should at least used the word '' adult '' 
and '' prime '' sasuke has the rinnegan not just the EMS 
and BTW : [/QUOTE]


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 7, 2016)

Prime EMS sasuke doesnt even exist stop. Anyway I dont see why EMS Sasuke's PS should be any weaker than EMS Madara's. Rinnegan Sasuke PS stomps though


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## Raiken (Apr 7, 2016)

As far as Chakra is concerned, EMS Sasuke has always been much weaker than EMS Madara.

Power output of standard Ninjutsu, Speed, Strength, Stamina.

Madara is superior to Sasuke in all these things simply because he has better Chakra than Sasuke.
EMS Madara's Chakra >> EMS Sasuke's Chakra. Which lets Madara go a lot further in relation to how long he can last and how powerful his Jutsu are.


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## ARGUS (Apr 7, 2016)

Lol Madaras PS >>> EMS sasukes PS 

Rikudo sasukes PS = Rikduo avatar 
Remove Rikudo and we get
EMS Sasuke PS = BM avatar 

Sasukes V3 KCC senjutsu susnaoo = BSM avatar in durability and all physical aspects 
Remove senjutsu and we get 
Sasukes V3 KCC Susanoo = BM avatar = EMS Sasuke (from combining the first 2 equations) 

Databook 4 said that base Mokujin is on par with Full Kyuubi in terms of physical abilities 

Full Kyuubi > BSM avatar > BM avatar = KCC Susanoo = EMS sasuke PS 

Madaras Ps was on par with SM MOkujin which is twice the size of base Mokujin maybe even larger 

So when we combine we get 

Madaras PS = SM Mokujin >> Base Mokujin = Full Kyuubi > BSM avatar > BM avatar = EMS sasukes PS = KCC Susanoo

Output of EMS sasukes PS equaled that of KCC Susanoo which was cutting low mountain level trunk with direct contact 
Madaras PS cut off 5 mountains that were miles away with no contact at all 
So Madaras PS >>> EMS sasukes PS in DC

Sasukes more durable construct got one shotted by an attack that produced a crater nowhere near the size of VOTE and an explosion that was minisucle in comparison. And his PS gets half of its body shrugged off by just 2 regular TBB 
Madaras PS tanked a superior individual TBB with no damage whatsoever 

Thus Madaras PS >>> EMS sasukes PS in durability 

Inb4 - someone Negs me because I hurt their feelings and their faves are nowhere strong as they thought 
Inb4 - someone just complains about this but won't have a single argument to back up their claims or refute mine


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 7, 2016)

Sasuke's PS sword has the assisted feat of cutting through Nunoboko and also Juubito. Those feats shit all fucking over anything Madara's PS has done. Chakra quantity doesnt have anything to do with how strong Sus is, Is EMS Sasuke's Susanoo stronger than Itachi's? he has a superior dojutsu and can spam things like Amaterasu and Susanoo more. Most people would probably say MS Itachi's Sus is = to EMS Sasuke's.


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## Raiken (Apr 7, 2016)

It's more like this:

Rinnegan Madara's PS = SM Hashirama's Mokujin w/ Mokuryu
Rinnegan Madara's V4 = SM Hashirama's Mokujin
Rinnegan Madara's V3 = SM Hashirama's Mokuryu

EMS Madara's PS = Base Hashirama's Mokujin w/ Mokuryu
EMS Madara's V4 = Base Hashirama's Mokujin
EMS Madara's V3 = Base Hashirama's Mokuryu

Basically...

Rinnegan Madara w/o Limbo = SM Hashirama = EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara >> Base Hashirama = EMS Madara


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## Android (Apr 7, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> It's more like this:
> 
> Rinnegan Madara's PS = SM Hashirama's Mokujin w/ Mokuryu
> Rinnegan Madara's V4 = SM Hashirama's Mokujin
> ...



must be why when kurama's TBB exploded , the mokujin turned to dust , while PS was fine


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## Raiken (Apr 7, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> must be why when kurama's TBB exploded , the mokujin turned to dust , while PS was fine


Sure it's superior in durability when comparing the ability to tank 100% Kurama's TBB, but having Mokujin and Multiple Mokuryu's go @ EMS Madara's PS would be a pretty even fight in my opinion.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 8, 2016)

Sasuke's PS sword still cut through Juubito who is more durable than the Juubi. thats>>>>Madara's PS

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## hbcaptain (Apr 8, 2016)

The DB said Hashirama had to sturden Mokujin's head to tank the TBB , it's no coincidence that the whole body disapeared after the explosion apart from the head .

So no Mokujin isn't tanking TBB explosion in base durability , but it is strong enough to catch and deviate it before the bang .

It's the same against PS slashes , the sword got blocked before directly piercing Mokujin corps . But a direct hit would probably slice it into two entities .


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 8, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> please keep on coming at me. Especially if you'll provide me this much comedy
> I thank you sir.



His body has the juubi's shell on it, the same shell that tanked a juubi dama


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## Divell (Jun 19, 2016)

The thing about this is that Madara has as good or even better feats than Sasuke, etc, for striking power there isn't much for Madara but for durability he has island to country and considering how easily Sasuke is getting destroyed every five seconds I wouldn't be surprise if they aren't that different.


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## Mercurial (Jun 19, 2016)

Rinnegan Sasuke BPS > Rinnegan Sasuke PS > Edo\EMS Madara PS > EMS Sasuke PS

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 19, 2016)

sasukes biju PS>madaras majestic attire susano>madaras PS=sasukes PS


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## Mercurial (Jun 19, 2016)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasukes biju PS>madaras majestic attire susano>madaras PS=sasukes PS


Why...


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 19, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Why...


-biju PS produced more destruction than majestic attire.
-majstic attire produced more destruction than eithers PS alone.
-sasukes PS and madaras PS have shown the same destruction.


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## Divell (Jun 19, 2016)

Considering their feats I wouldn't be so sure about Sasuke Rinnegan's Perfect Susano'o being above Madara's.
Striking Power
Sasuke


Madara


Consider this, Madara's was pure air, and destruction caused, not exactly how much was put into that attack, and Sasuke's are direct attacks.

Durability
Sasuke

Madara

Sasuke, like Madara took Kyuubi's Bijuu Bomb, but at the contrary of Sasuke's, Madara's was a full Kyuubi and Kyuubi was going for the kill while Naruto wasn't fighting for real. Heck Kyuubi's explosions at that time were middle island, low country. Naruto and Sasuke were calculated at kilotons.

And considering, how easily Sasuke's Susano'o brakes, is not easy to argue his being superior to Madaras'.

Specially considering the difference between Rinnegan and Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## Divell (Jun 19, 2016)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> -biju PS produced more destruction than majestic attire.
> -majstic attire produced more destruction than eithers PS alone.
> -sasukes PS and madaras PS have shown the same destruction.


Madara's Perfect Susano'o was only convering the Kyuubi, not combining the powers.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 19, 2016)

Sasuke's PS broke "so easily" because the dude was fighting the strongest person in his verse 
Madara couldnt even fight Kaguya for a second considering Black Zetsu oneshotted his ass

Sasuke's BPS>>Rinnegan Sasuke's PS>>>>EMS Madara's PS=EMS Sasuke's PS


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## ARGUS (Jun 19, 2016)

BPS >> Rinnegan sasukes PS >>> Madaras PS >>> EMS sasukes PS 

There's plenty of evidence that supports this


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## Divell (Jun 20, 2016)

Nope, nothing really suggest Sasuke Rinnegan's Perfect Susano'o is superior to Madara's. Considering Madara never really used him when he had the two rinnegan for real. And he only obtained near his real power after become human again. And was still powerful enough to beat Hashirama at near full power. Remember the multimountain feat was while in Edo Tensei, an Edo Tensei is well below the real power of the real person. Also remember how he never really fought Sasuke or Naruto at both of them's real power. And the first time he hit Kaguya failed bc he simply wasn't strong enough. Heck even the shockwaves he was delivering in the fight with Naruto don't give us anything superior to Madara's at that moment.
Naruto and Sasuke shockwaves

Madara's






Is hard to actually take the Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is superior to Madara having on account all this. Yes Naruto and Sasuke may look more bigger and impressive but take in consideration Sasuke's and Naruto's shockwaves are on water and Madara's are on land, and Madara's is by himself. Besides the meteor he has nothing that suggest his attack power is superior to Madara, and considering Madara's Perfect Susano'o's durability scales from Kyuubi's attack since he no-sell it, I would think they are pretty even.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 20, 2016)

Rinnegan Sasuke's PS >>>>> EMS/Rinnegan Madara's PS


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## Divell (Jun 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Rinnegan Sasuke's PS >>>>> EMS/Rinnegan Madara's PS


Rinnegan Madara > EMS buddy. And nothing really suggest that, or denies Madara can't go Kenpachi on that meteor.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 20, 2016)

Divell said:


> Rinnegan Madara > EMS buddy. And nothing really suggest that, or denies Madara can't go Kenpachi on that meteor.


Adult Sasuke >> Juubi Mads >>> Rinnegan Madara > EMS Madara

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Divell (Jun 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Adult Sasuke >> Juubi Mads


Now I see you are joking considering this happened

and this was a thing



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Juubi Mads>>> Rinnegan Madara


Juubidara is not much more stronger than Rinnegan Madara, is like the difference between base Naruto and Sage Power Naruto.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Rinnegan Madara > EMS Madara


That's comun knowledge.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 20, 2016)

Divell said:


> Juubidara is not much more stronger than Rinnegan Madara, is like the difference between base Naruto and Sage Power Naruto.


there are not enough hestons or skully's in existence to show how stupid of a statement that is

Adult Sasuke stomps any version of Madara


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## Divell (Jun 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> there are not enough hestons or skully's in existence to show how stupid of a statement that is
> 
> Adult Sasuke stomps any version of Madara


Let's see,
Strength


Speed


Durability



Endurance


Jutsu



Madara has equal to or even better feats than Sasuke considering he only had one Rinnegan or none every time they fought. The only real difference is Sasuke is more skilled than Madara, Orochimaru himself says so, but in terms of power they are close to equal.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 20, 2016)

Nope. Sasuke >>>>>>> Madara

You posted the difference in their power yourself

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2016)

The boosts people receive while obtaining Rikudou Senjutsu is immense, so no doubt that Juubidara is significantly above Rinnegan Madara.

 Rinnegan Madara even competing with Adult Sasuke in speed let alone Teen Rikudou Sasuke? No, not even possible.


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## Divell (Jun 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Nope. Sasuke >>>>>>> Madara
> 
> You posted the difference in their power yourself


I don't see any.



UchihaX28 said:


> The boosts people receive while obtaining Rikudou Senjutsu is immense, so no doubt that Juubidara is significantly above Rinnegan Madara.
> 
> Rinnegan Madara even competing with Adult Sasuke in speed let alone Teen Rikudou Sasuke? No, not even possible.


Yes Juubi give them a significant boost, but remember we never saw Madara using both of his eyes or fighting at full power, he was still recovering from the beat down Guy give him. And when he finally took his two eyes we never saw him doing anything more than the giant ass chibaku tensei.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 20, 2016)

Its your own fault if you cant see the difference. We arent here to spell it all out for you. Adult Sasuke is far stronger than Madara.

Madara was done recovering when Naruto jumped at him right after he came back to life. Madara says "have i not finished recovering? No. He's gotten stronger!" so he thinks he is done healing. Then when he absorbs the shinjuu he is 100% fine. No wounds from Guy were left.


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## Divell (Jun 20, 2016)

No adult Sasuke doesn't has a feat that Madara can't replicate, either in strength, in speed, durability or endurance.

Really? This is actual Viz translation

when Naruto punches Madara, he hadn't finished healing yet. And yes he also claims Naruto is stronger, but it still wasn't enough to ovepower him. And remember all of this with one Rinnegan, Sakura at that time had better feats for Striking Power than Naruto and Sasuke in their base power.

Madara was casually stooping her.

Yes Naruto's power grow with the rikudou power, to the point he was matching a little against Kaguya,

but it only proof Naruto is stronger than Sasuke nothing more. And without the chakra cloak he wasn't strong enough to completely defeat 1 Rinnegan Juubidara. If you want me, I can post all of Madara's and Sasuke's feats. Sasuke hasn't done anything besides the meteor that says he is stronger than Madara, by the simple fact Madara didn't destroy any meteor. But considering Perfect Susano'o's strength can be scaled to its durability and viceverse we can say Madara can take it, considering when he was convering Kyuubi his Susano'o took Kyuubi's bijuu dama which is calculated in island to low country, when Kyuubi was complete, Sasuke's Susano'o was braking from the clash between him and Naruto.

The difference between Rinnegan Sasuke and Rikudou Naruto is the same as EMS Madara and Hashirama. Hashirama/Naruto could destroy Madara/Sasuke, but Sasuke obtained then the same power as did Madara, they are basically equal with the rinnegans (Madara's two Rinnegans = Sasuke's Rinnegan).


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 20, 2016)

Sasuke cut Juubi Madara in half and as an adult his power is comparable to RSM Naruto. fucking BM Naruto could deflect 5 bijuu dama with his Shunshin, thats the best physical strength feat from anyone who isnt a legit god tier dude. Juubito could destroy Hashirama's gates just by standing up, the same gates tanked a juubi dama. So Obito is physically above a juubi dama by his feats. 

Naruto could knock around Kaguya and his clones could fight Juubi Madara's Limbo evenly. Adult Sasuke is > that Naruto. Madara cant compete dude


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## Divell (Jun 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Sasuke cut Juubi Madara in half


One rinnegan, fleeing, and that same attack would have cut Sasuke in half as well.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> and as an adult his power is comparable to RSM Naruto.


never been stated.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> fucking BM Naruto could deflect 5 bijuu dama with his Shunshin, thats the best physical strength feat from anyone who isnt a legit god tier dude.


That's cute




OneSimpleAnime said:


> Juubito could destroy Hashirama's gates just by standing up, the same gates tanked a juubi dama. So Obito is physically above a juubi dama by his feats.


Gates never took Juubi's Bijuu dama, and different type of damage. If a ant survives a nuclear explosion and we can easily kill an ant, does we have nuclear lv strength?



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Naruto could knock around Kaguya and his clones could fight Juubi Madara's Limbo evenly. Adult Sasuke is > that Naruto. Madara cant compete dude


Hahahaha
Naruto

Sasuke

oh yeah Sasuke > Naruto, totally. Hahahahaha.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 21, 2016)

Divell said:


> One rinnegan, fleeing, and that same attack would have cut Sasuke in half as well.
> 
> 
> never been stated.
> ...


I never said Sasuke was > Naruto dude. We saw Adult Sasuke keep up with RSM Naruto and perform at the same level, thats all we need to say that RSM Adult Naruto = Adult Sasuke.

Gates did take the juubi dama and there's no such things as "different types of damage". 

Good job posting feats from a fight where Sasuke was 16 and not 30


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2016)

Divell said:


> I don't see any.
> 
> 
> Yes Juubi give them a significant boost, but remember we never saw Madara using both of his eyes or fighting at full power, he was still recovering from the beat down Guy give him. And when he finally took his two eyes we never saw him doing anything more than the giant ass chibaku tensei.



 True, we never got to see much of JJ Madara's speed feats based on the position he was in.

 Regardless, Bijuu Chakra has always given people larger boosts and I see no reason why it's any different for Madara. Naruto alone received an immense power boost from Kurama and Rikudou Senjutsu alone gave him power that vastly exceeded Kurama's Power, so it should have been relatively large boost for Madara. Sadly, we didn't get to see much of JJ Madara's feats, but he was up against Naruto and Sasuke who powered up greatly, so against two beings that can compete with his speed, obviously his speed would never really appear to be as impressive.


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## Divell (Jun 21, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I never said Sasuke was > Naruto dude. We saw Adult Sasuke keep up with RSM Naruto and perform at the same level, thats all we need to say that RSM Adult Naruto = Adult Sasuke.
> 
> Gates did take the juubi dama and there's no such things as "different types of damage".
> 
> Good job posting feats from a fight where Sasuke was 16 and not 30


You sure?


> Naruto could knock around Kaguya and his clones could fight Juubi Madara's Limbo evenly. Adult Sasuke is > that Naruto. Madara cant compete dude


really weird.

Sure, then humans are nuclear lv? Good to know.

Because the difference in power is?


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## Divell (Jun 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> True, we never got to see much of JJ Madara's speed feats based on the position he was in.
> 
> Regardless, Bijuu Chakra has always given people larger boosts and I see no reason why it's any different for Madara. Naruto alone received an immense power boost from Kurama and Rikudou Senjutsu alone gave him power that vastly exceeded Kurama's Power, so it should have been relatively large boost for Madara. Sadly, we didn't get to see much of JJ Madara's feats, but he was up against Naruto and Sasuke who powered up greatly, so against two beings that can compete with his speed, obviously his speed would never really appear to be as impressive.


Let's put it this way, Juubi dara two rinnegans > Naruto > Sasuke, Juubidara one rinnegan <=> Naruto > Sasuke, Naruto > two Rinnegan Madara alive = Sasuke. That's what I been saying all along.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2016)

Divell said:


> Let's put it this way, Juubi dara two rinnegans > Naruto > Sasuke, Juubidara one rinnegan <=> Naruto > Sasuke, Naruto > two Rinnegan Madara alive = Sasuke. That's what I been saying all along.



 And Sasuke managed to compete with JJ Madara who was significantly above Dual Rinnegan Alive Madara. No way is Rikudou Sasuke only equal to Dual Rinnegan Madara.


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## Divell (Jun 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And Sasuke managed to compete with JJ Madara who was significantly above Dual Rinnegan Alive Madara. No way is Rikudou Sasuke only equal to Dual Rinnegan Madara.


Actually, he doesn't really has any significant power boost. And Sasuke all did was evade an attack and cut him in half. And we don't really know which one is stronger considering prior to that Madara was doing the same while in Edo.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2016)

Divell said:


> Actually, he doesn't really has any significant power boost. And Sasuke all did was evade an attack and cut him in half. And we don't really know which one is stronger considering prior to that Madara was doing the same while in Edo.



 If Sasuke could compete with RSM Naruto in terms of reactions, then yes, he already improved significantly, not to mention his PS actually sliced through Madara's Chibaku Tensei Meteors which easily dwarf the mountains Madara's PS has sliced through.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 21, 2016)

Divell said:


> really weird.
> 
> Sure, then humans are nuclear lv? Good to know.
> 
> Because the difference in power is?


what hell does that even mean? humans cant take nukes dude what the actual fuck are you babbling on on about.

Adult Sasuke > Madara


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## Divell (Jun 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> If Sasuke could compete with RSM Naruto in terms of reactions, then yes, he already improved significantly, not to mention his PS actually sliced through Madara's Chibaku Tensei Meteors which easily dwarf the mountains Madara's PS has sliced through.


I love how people are saying Madara Rinnegan is weaker than Sasuke because Sasuke has better feats, gonna go with Perfect Susano'o feats this time
Sasuke's

Madara's

One is and the other , but then there is one slight problem, Sasuke's is a direct hit, Madara's is a air pressure alone, there hasn't been an example of Madara actually hitting directly, so many people take the multimountain feats as the maximum power of Madara, when there are other factos that denied this, for example
Edo Madara is weaker than alive Madara, this is actually stated in by Hashirama and alive Madara < one rinnegan Madara < Two Rinnegan Madara. This of course doesn't prove much, but add to that Madara's Susano'o was strong enough to no-sell Kyuubi's Bijuu Dama,

which is calculated in here as , while Sasuke's was shattering from those same attacks.


which I can't say how weak that explosion is 

considering it goes from multimountain to island.
There is also the fact that Madara's multimountain calc is calculating the damage caused by the air pressure not how much DC Madara has. Specially if his Susano'o's durability is way above that, as a lower version took Tenpenchi directly without any damage.

Same Tenpenchi is Island to country

And no, Sasuke can't be scaled to Naruto for one small reason
Naruto

Sasuke

Naruto could fudderice him any time he wants. There isn't really that much difference in Adult Sasuke and teen Sasuke really, even in the games they can perform the same feats

though Sasuke's Chibaku's aren't that much of a deal really,

yes, i know games aren't canon but it hasn't give us anything that we can't see Sasuke pulling off, taking in account Sasuke's Chibaku Tensei aren't that big

he can destroy falling meteors


and his own Chidori in Susano'o gives half of the damage needed to shatter Susano'o.

Madara casually destroys Objects bigger than those

and considering the power outputs of a Susano'o can scale to its durability and viceverse the difference between Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o and Madara's Perfect Susano'o, is minimum to nothing.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> what hell does that even mean? humans cant take nukes dude what the actual fuck are you babbling on on about.
> 
> Adult Sasuke > Madara


I'm asking you, an ant can survive a nuclear attack, a human can kill a ant, does that means humans are nuclear lv? the answer is no. There is difference in types of attacks. And again, I can always bring you all of their feats to compare.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 21, 2016)

keep "comparing feats". I dont care at this point and its pretty obvious to everyone who is stronger here.

An Ant could survive nuclear fallout, not having a nuke get dropped on top of them lol


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## Divell (Jun 21, 2016)

Of course everyone knows it, I don't know why you insist in saying is not, even though I been telling you the contrary.

And is the same shit, considering a nuclear fallout > any human.


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## Rai (Jun 22, 2016)

Full Kurama BD is only mountain buster.

Survived Tenpechi? 50% Kurama cloak survived that shit and we know that RSM Naruto avatar is much stronger.

Sasuke's PS survives Tenpechi without a scratch.

Also Oonoki + A destroyed that very same Susano'o and the attack didn't look like anything impressive to me.


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## ARGUS (Jun 22, 2016)

the more i look into it, the more it seems that Madaras CT were just mountain sized themselves. 

the image by itself already compares the diameter of the meteors and the  mountains. There is also the fact that the mountains being measured are from much further away,  making them appear smaller than they actually are. 

there is also the fact that Sasukes PS slashes at VOTE only formed mountain level destruction, which further supports this notion. 
the only outlier to his power is PS chidori which is on par with RSM TBB which is far above madaras PS realm of output. 

anotherr important thing to note is that the meteor is much smaller than the base of the shinju which is completely encased in the crater formed by BM naruto and Killer Bees flash TBB. so Sasukes rikudo PS does not have the power that would immediately one shot madaras PS.

lastly,  theres this: 
Sasukes PS next to the madaras meteoor:  

this is full kyuubi next to mountains. 

the same full kyuubi thats larger than RSM avatar/Sasukes PS 

Kinjutsu: Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei

. which by contrast to the meteors appeared larger than full kyuubi did to mountains at VOTE. 

just my take on the power and size inconsistencies in the manga. 

hell it seems like the gap between tthe 2 may not even exist. sans PS chidori, though that defies everything the manga has addressed given that PS is entirely dependant on the users chakra and sasuke has rikudo buffing him. which is well above madaras base chakra

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2016)

ℜai said:


> Naruto states that Juubidara's CT were bigger than Pain's
> 
> 
> 
> Pain's CT



 Actually, he states that they're bigger than Edo Madara's Meteors.


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## Rai (Jun 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Actually, he states that they're bigger than Edo Madara's Meteors.



How is the JP translation? I forgot about it.

TakL or Ganta only plz


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2016)

ℜai said:


> How is the JP translation? I forgot about it.
> 
> TakL or Ganta only plz



 Oh wait, I skimmed through it. You're right.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 23, 2016)

pretty sure the logic people are using for PS vs madaras meteors make no sense.

for some reason people think that PS cant cut anything thats bigger than a mountain, but thats obviously not whats shown nor does it make sense.

for example to scale, if a mountain is 1 km wide, madaras PS slash would travel 50 km.

*the shockwave doesnt travel the distance of 1 mountain, then stop*, so where are people getting this idea that madaras PS can only cut mountain sized objects? 
the only thing that matters is how far the shockwave can travel.

if madaras meteors are 30 km wide for example, then the slash would cut through them as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 23, 2016)

Compare it to Sasuke's Susanoo before he got a DIRECT UPGRADE from the god of the Naruverse and we can talk about it, otherwise no, it's obvious Madara is a tier below Rikudo Sasuke.

ffs


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## Divell (Jun 24, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Compare it to Sasuke's Susanoo before he got a DIRECT UPGRADE from the god of the Naruverse and we can talk about it, otherwise no, it's obvious Madara is a tier below Rikudo Sasuke.
> 
> ffs


Not really, Madara with 2 Rinnegan and no Six Path should be equal to Rinnegan Sasuke. Remember we never saw Madara at full power or without amps. I would say Six Path +2 Rinnegan Madara > 2 Rinnegan Madara > Six Path 1 Rinnegan Madara > 1 Rinnegan Madara.



ARGUS said:


> the more i look into it, the more it seems that Madaras CT were just mountain sized themselves.
> 
> the image by itself already compares the diameter of the meteors and the  mountains. There is also the fact that the mountains being measured are from much further away,  making them appear smaller than they actually are.
> 
> ...


they are obviously bigger

but nothing Madara isn't able to cut through, specially if we scale him, I mean his Susano'o has multiple island to country lv feats. Specially if we compare the shockwaves


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## Divell (Jun 27, 2016)

If you guys wanna have more reasons to think Rinnegan Madara >=< Rinnegan Sasuke
This is Madara's attack

between all that this is one of the stuff madara destroyed

of course the calc isn't much, but that's just shockwave.
This is Sasuke's attacks

this is what he cut,

nice uh? Calculated, and those meteors have country lv Kinetic Energy

except that he needed multiple strikes to do so

Is good that there are more right? This is his shockwaves striking toward Naruto , . This is the calc, all that is Sasuke btw, Naruto was mostly defending,

Current is not much different, this is what Naruto and Sasuke can do currently,

this is what Edo Madara could do

Madara is probably even stronger than Sasuke. Not to mention remember Madara's Susano'o is way bigger than Sasuke's Susano'o. If we check the rest of their feats, without Susano'o, and go even further from just manga/anime, there will still be no difference.


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## Android (Jun 27, 2016)

Divell said:


> Madara's Susano'o is way bigger than Sasuke's


Not exactly . Adult Sasuke's susanoo is = Adult RSM Naruto's avatar in size 
Adult RSM avatar is bigger than the real kyuubi since it's full kyuubi + rikudou senjutsu 
and Madara's PS is slightly bigger than flesh and blood kyuubi .
Logic speaking and from what we saw in the movie , Sasuke's susanoo is easily above Madara's in size now


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## Jackalinthebox (Jun 27, 2016)

How is this even a discussion? Should be obvious that Sasuke's is superior, hurr durr rikudo PS.


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## Divell (Jun 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Not exactly . Adult Sasuke's susanoo is = Adult RSM Naruto's avatar in size
> Adult RSM avatar is bigger than the real kyuubi since it's full kyuubi + rikudou senjutsu
> and Madara's PS is slightly bigger than flesh and blood kyuubi .
> Logic speaking and from what we saw in the movie , Sasuke's susanoo is easily above Madara's in size now


he couldn't even complete cover Kyuubi's full body while Madara did. Madara is still bigger.



Jackalinthebox said:


> How is this even a discussion? Should be obvious that Sasuke's is superior, hurr durr rikudo PS.


Sasuke doesn't have rikudou's power


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## Android (Jun 27, 2016)

Divell said:


> he couldn't even complete cover Kyuubi's full body while Madara did. Madara is still bigger.


It didn't cover the tails , and that's it . Naruto's avatar is larger than the kyuubi Madara used 
Sasuke's susanoo is bigger than Madara . And far stronger 


Divell said:


> Sasuke doesn't have rikudou's power


Someone is not reading/watching the manga/the movie


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## Divell (Jun 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> It didn't cover the tails , and that's it .


or the heads, or the arms, or the body.



cctr9 said:


> Naruto's avatar is larger than the kyuubi Madara used


actually he is not, at best is equal, if you go and compare Madara and Naruto to the Kyuubi's eyes.



cctr9 said:


> Sasuke's susanoo is bigger than Madara . And far stronger


No he isn't.



cctr9 said:


> Someone is not reading/watching the manga/the movie


someone needs to recheck the last 3 volumens of Naruto 20 times.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jun 27, 2016)

Divell said:


> Sasuke doesn't have rikudou's power


Your headcanon is irrelevant in the battledome...


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## Divell (Jun 27, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Your headcanon is irrelevant in the battledome...


please read viz media's last 3 volumes of Naruto.


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## Android (Jun 27, 2016)

Divell said:


> or the heads, or the arms, or the body.


Didn't need to , scaling the size of the head , the arms , the torso , yep they're the same size


Divell said:


> actually he is not, at best is equal, if you go and compare Madara and Naruto to the Kyuubi's eyes.


Naruto's avatar in VOTE grew like 40 % in size thanks to his RSM buffs , and now he has full kyuubi + RSM , do the math


Divell said:


> No he isn't.


Faaaaar stronger i might add


Divell said:


> someone needs to recheck the last 3 volumens of Naruto 20 times.


You're saying Sasuke doesnt have Rikudou power , and i'm the one who needs to recheck the manga !!


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## Jackalinthebox (Jun 27, 2016)

Divell said:


> please read viz media's last 3 volumes of Naruto.


Okay, I'll bite. What do those volumes say that definitively means Sasuke lost the Rikudou power up while Naruto didn't?


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## Divell (Jun 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Didn't need to , scaling the size of the head , the arms , the torso , yep they're the same size


What part of Susano'o doesn't cover the whole Kyuubi you don't understand, while Madara do covered all of Kyuubi.



cctr9 said:


> Naruto's avatar in VOTE grew like 40 % in size thanks to his RSM buffs , and now he has full kyuubi + RSM , do the math


In Vote? Nigge WTF? Look the gif again, you will see Naruto poping up from somehwhere. I give you a hint, is as big as Kyuubi's face.



cctr9 said:


> Faaaaar stronger i might add


One feat of direct Striking power, Madara's shockwaves > Sasuke's.



cctr9 said:


> You're saying Sasuke doesnt have Rikudou power , and i'm the one who needs to recheck the manga !!


Yes.



Jackalinthebox said:


> Okay, I'll bite. What do those volumes say that definitively means Sasuke lost the Rikudou power up while Naruto didn't?


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## Jackalinthebox (Jun 27, 2016)

Ummm what? That didn't link me to the volumes you mentioned, it took me to a thread that YOU made. Sasuke's Rinnegan obviously isn't a normal one and if he lost his power while Naruro kept his, they wouldn't be called equals as adults. Naruto would've told him to gtfo out when the fight with Momoshiki happened, to say the least. 

So is there any actually proof that he lost the Six Paths Chakra?


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## Android (Jun 27, 2016)

Divell said:


> What part of Susano'o doesn't cover the whole Kyuubi you don't understand, while Madara do covered all of Kyuubi.


What part of Sasuke didn't need to cover the whole body you don't understand ?? 
Sasuke can make his susanoo cove the kyuubi , he did it in the manga , so that's out of the question , if you scal the size of their heads , arms , yes they're the same size .


Divell said:


> In Vote? Nigge WTF? Look the gif again, you will see Naruto poping up from somehwhere. I give you a hint, is as big as Kyuubi's face.


No , it's not , it's bigger , full kyuubi + RSM buffs = bigger kyuubi . End of story


Divell said:


> One feat of direct Striking power, Madara's shockwaves > Sasuke's.


Yeah , when Madara's susanoo can destroy meteors that their small pieces dwarf mountain ranges maybe we can talk 
Right now , a fight between Sasuke's susanoo and Madara's susanoo ends up in Sasuke turning Madara and his puny susanoo into a smear .


Divell said:


> Yes.


Well then , something is wrong with your comprehension , with all due respect .


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## Divell (Jun 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> What part of Sasuke didn't need to cover the whole body you don't understand ??


the part where is bullshit, and a lame ass excuse to say he can't.



cctr9 said:


> Sasuke can make his susanoo cove the kyuubi , he did it in the manga , so that's out of the question , if you scal the size of their heads , arms , yes they're the same size .


smaller and weaker versionn of Kyuubi, with a enhanced Susano'o



cctr9 said:


> No , it's not , it's bigger , full kyuubi + RSM buffs = bigger kyuubi . End of story


sure it is


just as my real name is Kishimoto



cctr9 said:


> Yeah , when Madara's susanoo can destroy meteors that their small pieces dwarf mountain ranges maybe we can talk




the meteor Madara summon reaches even higher than clouds, Chibaku Tensei does not, and neither the mountains.



cctr9 said:


> Right now , a fight between Sasuke's susanoo and Madara's susanoo ends up in Sasuke turning Madara and his puny susanoo into a smear .


Sure, I mean Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o > Madara Humanoid > normal Susano'o > Ribcage. That's for sure.



cctr9 said:


> Well then , something is wrong with your comprehension , with all due respect .


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## Android (Jun 27, 2016)

Divell said:


> the part where is bullshit, and a lame ass excuse to say he can't.


Well , that's your opinion , i guess


Divell said:


> smaller and weaker versionn of Kyuubi, with a enhanced Susano'o


Yeah , and a pre rikudou buff smaller weaker susanoo , also pretty sure Naruto's kyuubi was also senjutsu enhanced if that's what you'rev referring to 


Divell said:


> sure it is
> 
> 
> just as my real name is Kishimoto


I'm sorry but the links aren't work for me for some reason 
Here's the thing , i can bring many scans where TEEN naruto is the same size as kurama's eye , or madara being the same size as his susanoo jewl , and then he's dwarfed by the same jewl 
Naruto's avatar kept on changing many times in their VOTE fight , kish doesn't draw things with a ruler 
We know this : RSM increases kurama's avatar in size , so adult RSM is bigger than the kyuubi .


Divell said:


> the meteor Madara summon reaches even higher than clouds, Chibaku Tensei does not, and neither the mountains.


What the fuck are you trying to prove with this , reaching the clouds ??? 
EDO madara's meteors are like a bug compared to JJ madara's CT , they were stoped by Onoki and Gaara's sand 
JJ madara's CT show the earth's curvature , and are bigger than the Shinjuu stump 


Divell said:


> Sure, I mean Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o > Madara's perfect susanoo >> Madara Humanoid > normal Susano'o > Ribcage. That's for sure.


Fixed
What the hell should i do with a thread that says '' does sasuke still has senjutsu '' which you made ???


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## SuperDragonGirl (Jun 27, 2016)

Even if they are roughly the same size Sasuke stomps Madara's Susanoo.

Moon Level > Multi Mountain

Plus Sasuke's PS can fly Madara's can't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Jun 28, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Well , that's your opinion , i guess


That's my answer to you opinion.



cctr9 said:


> Yeah , and a pre rikudou buff smaller weaker susanoo , also pretty sure Naruto's kyuubi was also senjutsu enhanced if that's what you'rev referring to


The one who fought Obito, was a smaller Kyuubi. It was simple half. Multiple are the times where it can be differenced.



cctr9 said:


> I'm sorry but the links aren't work for me for some reason
> Here's the thing , i can bring many scans where TEEN naruto is the same size as kurama's eye , or madara being the same size as his susanoo jewl , and then he's dwarfed by the same jewl
> Naruto's avatar kept on changing many times in their VOTE fight , kish doesn't draw things with a ruler
> We know this : RSM increases kurama's avatar in size , so adult RSM is bigger than the kyuubi .


Not really considering Kishimoto has many times done that and made Madara's Susano'o 



cctr9 said:


> What the fuck are you trying to prove with this , reaching the clouds ???  EDO madara's meteors are like a bug compared to JJ madara's CT , they were stoped by Onoki and Gaara's sand
> JJ madara's CT show the earth's curvature , and are bigger than the Shinjuu stump


Onoki make it have less mass and even then it took every they both had. And he summoned another, both reashing the clouds easily. 



cctr9 said:


> What the hell should i do with a thread that says '' does sasuke still has senjutsu '' which you made ???


Read it.

Sasuke's Chibaku Tensei maybe better than anything Madara has shown for attack. But everything else Madara surpasses Sasuke, even more so, current Naruto is the one who can create shockwaves on the same lv as Rinnegan Madara. Six Path 2 Rinnegan Madara > 2 Rinnegan Madara = Rinnegan Sasuke > Six Path 1 Rinnegan Madara > 1 Rinnegan Madara.


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## Divell (Jun 28, 2016)

Even with one Rinnegan Madara put down Juubi

Took out the nine Bijuu 1-7 were full power 8 was a tentacle clone and 9 was half.

And sealed them easily inside the Hadou Mazou, all while ripping both Kyuubi from Naruto.

Sasuke put under Genjutsu and Chibaku Tensei, half of Bijuu 1-7, a clone from Hashibi and half of Kyuubi. Madara's feats are better in every way except by Perfect Susano'o's direct strike.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Jun 28, 2016)

I'm confused...is someone saying that Sasuke at his strongest, is weaker than Madara before he became a JuubiJin?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 28, 2016)

Keep the discussion in here civil.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 28, 2016)

Rinnegan Sasuke >>>>> Rinnegan Madara


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## Divell (Jun 29, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I'm confused...is someone saying that Sasuke at his strongest, is weaker than Madara before he became a JuubiJin?


No, Sasuke with Rinnegan = Madara two Rinnegans.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Rinnegan Sasuke >>>>> Rinnegan Madara


Prove it.



ℜai said:


> All Madara did was summon the Juubi or it just simply appeared because it finished in transforming into Ten Tails (You can see smoke that it's like when you use summoning)


And you can see him down, when they summoned him before he was perfectly fine and roaring.



ℜai said:


> Sasuke one shotted all the 9 Bijuu with a single glance without a scratch


Madara knock them aside with Limbo, puts Kyuubi under Genjutsu with EMS alone, and was said to do the same with others beasts.



ℜai said:


> Praised by Kurama to be in the same level as Hagoromo in chakra control


Cool, Madara did the same with Edo Mazou. 



ℜai said:


> Sasuke's PS has destroyed CT by Ten Tails Madara - Madara's PS has never ever destroyed objects as big as those CT


I been answering this since the beginign, we never saw Madara doing anything like that but not being able to do it either. So we compare the shockwaves, Madara's are multimountain, Sasuke's are multitown/multihill.



ℜai said:


> Sasuke is the one who outclass Madara in every feat not the other way around


Nothing really sujest that. Madara being raw power user mostly than Jutsu user. Not to mention also you need to remember Edo Madara > Alive Madara > 1 Rinnegan Madara > Two Rinnegan Madara.



ℜai said:


> Won't ever reply in this thread again


Too bad, too sad.


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## Rai (Jun 29, 2016)

Divell said:


> And you can see him down, when they summoned him before he was perfectly fine and roaring.



The statue finished in transforming into Juubi or Madara summoned it - the smoke implies it.

One panel we don't see Juubi behind Madara then later we see Juubi behind Madara.

You're the one who has to prove that Madara put the Juubi down.


One-Rinnegan Madara hasn't showed anything remotely close that can harm the Juubi when it tanked it's own Juubidama




Divell said:


> Madara knock them aside with Limbo, puts Kyuubi under Genjutsu with EMS alone, and was said to do the same with others beasts.



That was with Hashirama's SM.

We haven't seen Madara's Limbo without SM.

In nowhere is stated that Madara has put all 9 tailed beast under genjutsu - stop inventing

Sasuke's feat is clearly superior - One shotted all the Bijuu in one glance and effortless with Genjutsu

The Biju's put some resistance against Madara and he had to use Gedo Mazo..







Divell said:


> Cool, Madara did the same with Edo Mazou.



Cool, now show me where is stated that what Madara did with the Bijuu-Mazou is Hagoromo level.




Divell said:


> I been answering this since the beginign, we never saw Madara doing anything like that but not being able to do it either. So we compare the shockwaves, Madara's are multimountain, Sasuke's are multitown/multihill.



RSM Naruto tails blocked the swing.



Divell said:


> Nothing really sujest that. Madara being raw power user mostly than Jutsu user. Not to mention also you need to remember Edo Madara > Alive Madara > 1 Rinnegan Madara > Two Rinnegan Madara.



Sasuke vs Bijuu - One shotted All Bijuu with a single glance (Genjutsu) and effortless

Madara vs Bijuu - Hit all the Bijuu with Limbo (they were fine) and had to use Gedo Mazou plus they showed resistance.

Sasuke's PS - has destroyed objects far far far far far bigger than mountains plus they were CT which mean it would require more power to cut through.

Madara's PS -  has only destroyed the top of mountains and a meteor.

Sasuke merging the Bijuu's chakra in his Susano'o - stated to be Hagoromo level.

Madara doing the same thing but with Gedo Mazou - never stated to be Hagoromo level

Winner: Sasuke

It's clearly that Sasuke outclass Madara.




Divell said:


> Too bad, too sad.



After this post I'm done 

No need to come back

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Divell (Jun 30, 2016)

ℜai said:


> The statue finished in transforming into Juubi or Madara summoned it - the smoke implies it.


ok. but when it was first summoned, the Juubi was screaming, but in the second time it was dozil. it implies 1, Madara controls it, 2 Madara put it under genjutsu. Either way is Sasuke lv.



ℜai said:


> One panel we don't see Juubi behind Madara then later we see Juubi behind Madara.


Yes and?



ℜai said:


> You're the one who has to prove that Madara put the Juubi down.


Bro, absorbs the Bijuu, creates the Juubi, Juubi is down. 



ℜai said:


> One-Rinnegan Madara hasn't showed anything remotely close that can harm the Juubi when it tanked it's own Juubidama


Except kick aside the Bijuu, absorbs them into the statue, etc, etc, etc.



ℜai said:


> That was with Hashirama's SM.


Hashirama's Sage Mode is to better manipulation of Jutsu and healing ability, not one time was stated or shown to increase strength.



ℜai said:


> We haven't seen Madara's Limbo without SM.


No need. Limbo is as strong as madara by databooks.



ℜai said:


> In nowhere is stated that Madara has put all 9 tailed beast under genjutsu - stop inventing


It was implied in the past.



ℜai said:


> Sasuke's feat is clearly superior - One shotted all the Bijuu in one glance and effortless with Genjutsu


1-7 and 9 were divided in half and 8 was a tentacle clone. Madara knock aside 1-7 complete, 8 tentacle clone, and 9 half.



ℜai said:


> The Biju's put some resistance against Madara and he had to use Gedo Mazo..


No, he needed the Gedo to summon the Juubi.



ℜai said:


> Cool, now show me where is stated that what Madara did with the Bijuu-Mazou is Hagoromo level.


IDk, how about recreate the Juubi itself?



ℜai said:


> RSM Naruto tails blocked the swing.


He tanked it, not the same. The only thing Naruto or Sasuke have comparable to Madara's shockwaves is this




ℜai said:


> Sasuke vs Bijuu - One shotted All Bijuu with a single glance (Genjutsu) and effortless


You already said this.



ℜai said:


> Madara vs Bijuu - Hit all the Bijuu with Limbo (they were fine) and had to use Gedo Mazou plus they showed resistance.


Knocked aside and he had enough time to summon Gedou Mazou and then pull the chains, and he took his sweat time. And 1-7 were complete at the contrary of Sasuke.



ℜai said:


> Sasuke's PS - has destroyed objects far far far far far bigger than mountains plus they were CT which mean it would require more power to cut through.


No, CT is just more mass because of size, nothing more.



ℜai said:


> Madara's PS -  has only destroyed the top of mountains and a meteor.


With air pressure alone, and devastated everything between his way and the mountains.



ℜai said:


> Sasuke merging the Bijuu's chakra in his Susano'o - stated to be Hagoromo level.


Combining the 9 Bijuu is also Hagoromo lv.



ℜai said:


> Madara doing the same thing but with Gedo Mazou - never stated to be Hagoromo level


No need, he did the same Hagoromo did but the other way around. Instead of separating them, he put them together.



ℜai said:


> Winner: Sasuke


dream on.



ℜai said:


> It's clearly that Sasuke outclass Madara.


Where?



ℜai said:


> After this post I'm done


So you say.



ℜai said:


> No need to come back


good bye.


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## Rai (Jun 30, 2016)

The Bijuu were fine after they were hit by Limbo let alone the Juubi which is far bigger, stronger and has tanked t's own super-charged Juubidama 

Still waiting for you to show me what One-Rinnegan  Madara can do to harm the Juubi 

Oh wait; nothing 

In nowhere is stated that Madara has put all the Bijuu under Genjutsu - just that he one the few people who could control Bijuu 

Sasuke effortless one-shotted all the Bijuu with a glance while the Bijuu were showing resistance against Madara plus had to use Gedo Mazou 

Anyone with common sense knows which feat is superior, but fanboys...

The Hachibi that Sasuke one-shotted was the real one - stop inventing nonsense - All Hachibi did was cut a tentacle so that Bee could survive the Bijuu extraction 

Still waiting for you to show me where is that stated that what Madara did wtih Bijuu-Gedo Mazou is Hagoromo level 

Still waiting for you to show me when Madara's PS has ever destroyed objects as big as those CT 

Oh wait; never 

Anyone with common sense would know that those feats of Sasuke outclass Madara's...but fanboys love to invent things 

Won't bother with fanboys

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Jul 5, 2016)

ℜai said:


> The Bijuu were fine after they were hit by Limbo let alone the Juubi which is far bigger, stronger and has tanked t's own super-charged Juubidama


That one is actually the single most easy question I have answered in all my life, remember how the Hyugas were overpowering him and he was having trouble getting off a mountain? Madara can do this with one eye

Can do this with his Susano'o

and can take Tenpenchii with his normal Susano'o

Yes, Juubi took his own Bijuu dama and Bee's, but remember that's energy based attacks and Madara is physical/piecing/hacking/slashing attacks.


ℜai said:


> Still waiting for you to show me what One-Rinnegan  Madara can do to harm the Juubi
> 
> Oh wait; nothing


How about dropping a meteor on him? Encasing him in Chibaku Tensei? Attacking him with Chibaku Tensei, etc, etc, etc.



ℜai said:


> In nowhere is stated that Madara has put all the Bijuu under Genjutsu - just that he one the few people who could control Bijuu


Then my bad, but we know he efforcestly put FULL KYUUBI WHO COULD SOLO THE BIJUU SASUKE PUT UNDER GENJUTSU. 



ℜai said:


> Sasuke effortless one-shotted all the Bijuu with a glance while the Bijuu were showing resistance against Madara plus had to use Gedo Mazou


Still beat up all Bijuu, overpowering them and putting them inside of Gedo Mazo and they couldn't do anything to stop him.



ℜai said:


> Anyone with common sense knows which feat is superior, but fanboys...


That's my line actually.



ℜai said:


> The Hachibi that Sasuke one-shotted was the real one - stop inventing nonsense - All Hachibi did was cut a tentacle so that Bee could survive the Bijuu extraction


No, Hachibi was under Genjutsu inside of Bee, the one he put under Genjutsu was a tentacle clone like the one Momoshiki absorbed and Akatsuki put inside of Mazou.



ℜai said:


> Still waiting for you to show me where is that stated that what Madara did wtih Bijuu-Gedo Mazou is Hagoromo level


In Chakra Control not in power. It couldn't even one-shot a Naruto clone.



ℜai said:


> Still waiting for you to show me when Madara's PS has ever destroyed objects as big as those CT
> 
> Oh wait; never


Madara destroys 6 mountains with just air pressure, Sasuke's Chubaku tensei in half the one he cut, was around 8 mountain each half, problem? Sasuke's attacks were direct attacks, Madara was air alone. And you are looking at it in just attacks that are differents, one is air pressure and the other is directs attacks. Directs attacks > Shockwaves by definition, so if we compare the shockwaves Sasuke is below Madara's. Sasuke's Susano'o durability is also below Madara, their basic speed and strength feats are comparable, but you wanna tell Sasuke is above Madara because some feats that can't be used for comparison? don't make me laugh.



ℜai said:


> Anyone with common sense would know that those feats of Sasuke outclass Madara's...but fanboys love to invent things
> 
> Won't bother with fanboys


Anyone with a brain knows that's bullshit.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jul 6, 2016)

this should clarify anything regarding the meteors.

*Spoiler*: __ 










just to put the meteor feat into perspective. thats how big they are shown to be compared to the shinjus trunk and bijudama crater up close. not sure how anyone could honestly claim that madara cant cut those meteors.

this isnt close to being above madaras PS considering that you only need something thats a fraction of naruto & bees combined bijudama to dispose of the meteors.
thats the best feat of sasukes PS. his best feat with his PS slash is<<<<<BM naruto and bees strongest move.

fanboys will still lie about the feat and wank though. all one can do is show absolute evidence, nothing can be done about blatant dishonesty.


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## Rai (Jul 11, 2016)

Nothing I said in my post was a lie and dishonesty 

The Bijuu were fine after Limbo  - true

One-Rinnegan Madara hasn't shown anything remotely close that can harm the Juubi - true

In nowhere is stated that Madara in the past has put all the Bijuu in Genjutsu - just that he was one the people who could control Bijuu - true

Sasuke one-shotted all the Bijuu with a single glance while they were showing resistance against Madara plus had to use Gedo Mazo - true

In nowhere is stated that what Madara did with Bijuu-Mazo is Hagomoro level - true

The Hachibi that Sasuke one-shotted with Genjutsu is the real one - true

Madara's PS has never ever destroyed objects as big as those CT - true

Those three feats  of Sasuke outclass Madara's  - true

Stop calling people liar because you don't like that those three feats of Sasuke outlclass Madara's 

You're the who has trying to downplay that meteor feat in the past because you got butthurt or something 

Saying that those meteors were mountain sized or something like that 

Fanboys 

Won't even bother after this post


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