# Tobirama vs Nagato



## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Location: Sannin field
Distance: 40 meters
Restrictions: none
Knowledge: none
SOM: IC

Tobirama has edo Fuu and Torune


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## Nikushimi (Aug 4, 2013)

Nagato pulverizes the shit out of Tobirama with Shinra Tensei when he tries to attack at close-range and then proceeds to soul-rip his Edo Tensei while they are regenerating.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 4, 2013)

I'm not even going to go into detail....

A large _Shinra Tensei_, _Laser Explosion_ followed by some _Soul Rips_ and we have a winner


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## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Tobirama has FTG to get out of shinra tensei.


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

Nagato makes a stain on the wall


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama has FTG to get out of shinra tensei.



Explain how FTG undoes the damage that ST will do to Tobirama.


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## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

^ don't ask him difficult questions go easy on him 
chibaku tensei If Nagato woke up on the wrong side of the bed


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## Nikushimi (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama has FTG to get out of shinra tensei.



Tobirama can't see Shinra Tensei coming, and he's pretty much dead or seriously wounded by the time it hits him (depending entirely on how much effort Nagato decides to put forth).


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 4, 2013)

Unless tobirama sense the ST super duper fast, warp away, and then come back and slash nagato head off he will not win. We all know this ain't gonna happen so tobirama gets repelled/crippled by a serious ST and then the animal path, asura path and deva path powers finish him if he is not down already.

The fodder edo tensei gets soul ripped after being manhandled by nagato's asura path and animal path.


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## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Explain how FTG undoes the damage that ST will do to Tobirama.



Its called evading the attack. Shinra Tensei is not that fast.


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## LostSelf (Aug 4, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Its called evading the attack. Shinra Tensei is not that fast.



Yes, yes it is fast. Faster than any Shinobi reaction if we combine the jutsu's speed, activation speed, no handseals and the surprise factor.

You need Mind reading no jutsu to attempt to avoid Shinra Tensei.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Its called evading the attack. Shinra Tensei is not that fast.



i actually agree with you on this 
however tobirama would have to have tags already spread to avoid it. Its not that easy to avoid and could leave him open. 
granted he might avoid shinra tensei he still has nothing that can actually harm nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Its called evading the attack. Shinra Tensei is not that fast.



Shinra Tensei has shown that all its targets only realise the jutsu has been used after they've been hit. So unless Tobirama can foresee ST, which no ocular power or sensor alike, as been able to do... Then sure Hiraishin can evade it well.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Shinra Tensei has shown that all its targets only realise the jutsu has been used after they've been hit. So unless Tobirama can foresee ST, which no ocular power or sensor alike, as been able to do... Then sure Hiraishin can evade it well.



I don't recall any sensor ever failing to detect ST. KCM Naruto was alerted to Nagato's presence before he even used it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't recall any sensor ever failing to detect ST. KCM Naruto was alerted to Nagato's presence before he even used it.



Naruto, Fukasaku and Shima are sensors when using Sage abilities. KCM was aware of _Nagato's_ presence, he wasn't able to sense the chakra build up for Shinra Tensei, again. 

It is the same reason why Naruto, with chakra sensing, wasn't able to sense Bansho Tenin. This is with Sage Mode _and_ KCM.

Generally if Sages and KCM can't sense something, then it is very probable that a regular sensor will have no chance.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Location: Sannin field
> Distance: 40 meters
> Restrictions: none
> Knowledge: none
> ...



LMAO, Nagato just throws out chikabu tensai to trap the edo's and kill Tobirama then walks away bored...

How could you pit tobirama even with a very low level fuu and torune which would be the levl he uses edo's, if he can. Against Nagato who was able to own Killer b with samehada and RM naruto at the same time... Forced to be saved by Itachi who needed the totsuka sword to beat nagato which says allot...


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## richard lewis (Feb 3, 2014)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> LMAO, Nagato just throws out chikabu tensai to trap the edo's and kill Tobirama then walks away bored...
> 
> How could you pit tobirama even with a very low level fuu and torune which would be the levl he uses edo's, if he can. Against Nagato who was able to own Killer b with samehada and RM naruto at the same time... Forced to be saved by Itachi who needed the totsuka sword to beat nagato which says allot...



Thousand explosions would destroy the core of CT. I actually think tobirama has a decent shot here if he can manage to mark nagato with an FTG seal. which will be damn hard to do since getting close to him is a death wish "ST and asura path" but not impossible. I'm 50/50 here


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## Bonly (Feb 3, 2014)

We be bringing back threads almost a full 6 months old. Yolo bitches

As for the thread, Nagato gives Tobi a spanking and puts him in a corner after trolling Tobi for a while.


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## richard lewis (Feb 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> We be bringing back threads almost a full 6 months old. Yolo bitches
> 
> As for the thread, Nagato gives Tobi a spanking and puts him in a corner after trolling Tobi for a while.



I figured tobirama has a few new feats now so why not bring it back to see if opinions have changed. I think tobi has a decent shot here, with FTG it's gunna be almost impossible for nagato to touch him. With edo's and KB's to use as distractions tobirama might be able to slip an FTG seal on him and from there he should win more times than not.


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## Krippy (Feb 3, 2014)

Still a horrible rape in Nagato 's favor


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## Bonly (Feb 3, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> I figured tobirama has a few new feats now so why not bring it back to see if opinions have changed. I think tobi has a decent shot here, with FTG it's gunna be almost impossible for nagato to touch him. With edo's and KB's to use as distractions tobirama might be able to slip an FTG seal on him and from there he should win more times than not.



Tobi's not gonna get to touch Nagato to place a seal on him, Nagato's reactions and jutsu are to good of a defense.


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## Ersa (Feb 3, 2014)

Tobirama doesn't go down without a good fight but Nagato takes this very comfortably. He can counter everything Tobirama has, has more stamina and firepower.


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## ARGUS (Feb 3, 2014)

Nagato wins this low diff only due to FTG


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 3, 2014)

Nagato won't even need to bring out the big attacks a charged Asura gun taes it home


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 4, 2014)

I've seen some pretty silly claims about avoiding shinra tensei...

It doesn't even require a hand sign and it's warmup is 0. Only ways to tell he's going to use it are

1.) Timing and taking guesses like Kakashi did with deva path due to 5 second cooldown
2.) Somehow reading into his mind (Which isn't as near as easy as many think. Nagato is not weak against genjutsu, being effected by the 1st or 2nd most powerful sound genjutsu in the manga doesn't make you weak against genjutsu) 
3.) Foresight ability like the sharingan. Hinata obviously failed to avoid ST with Byakugan... and Itachi didn't waste much time getting Nagato sealed so didn't get to find out. I'd imagine though that sharingan can at least let the user know, and from then on it's about getting your body to react in time. Kakashi didn't pull this off but he's not an Uchiha so not the best way to form a solid guess.

Only one of those three things Tobirama can attempt is 1.), and let's not forgot that Kakashi still got defeated trying that method...

AoE isn't good for Tobirama's health.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> I've seen some pretty silly claims about avoiding shinra tensei...
> 
> It doesn't even require a hand sign and it's warmup is 0. Only ways to tell he's going to use it are
> 
> ...



AT isn't instant the shock wave has to travel from nagato to tobirama it is fast but I would say it's at best as fast as full speed Ei, probably a bit slower. That mean tobirama has a split second window to dodge it. and with chakra sensing tobirama should be able to tell when nagato is gathering chakra for his attack and time his defense accordingly. Also once using ST tobirama has a 5 second window to try and attack nagato, and if he as much as touches nagato in the window then the fights over b/c he can place an FTG seal on him at which point he can blitz nagato at will.


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## babaGAReeb (Feb 4, 2014)

nagato will win unless tobirama just simply says fuck this and FTG's to a bar and to get drunk


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 4, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> AT isn't instant the shock wave has to travel from nagato to tobirama it is fast but I would say it's at best as fast as full speed Ei, probably a bit slower. That mean tobirama has a split second window to dodge it. and with chakra sensing tobirama should be able to tell when nagato is gathering chakra for his attack and time his defense accordingly. Also once using ST tobirama has a 5 second window to try and attack nagato, and if he as much as touches nagato in the window then the fights over b/c he can place an FTG seal on him at which point he can blitz nagato at will.



That speed you guess is backed up by absolutely nothing...

KCM Naruto was unable to even come close to dodging ST, and KCM Naruto's speed is very close to Ei's. So no, by no means is the effect of ST slower than Ei's speed.

Yes there is a 5 second window, but that doesn't really matter considering how Nagato can put so much force into ST it launches giant toads hundreds of meters(And that was through Deva path, Nagato's jutsu is more effective when it's just him). I don't think Tobirama has enough durability to tank something with that much force. 

Also, we're just considering Deva path here. Let's not forget the summons, the missiles and lasers, the ninjutsu absorption, etc...


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> That speed you guess is backed up by absolutely nothing...
> 
> KCM Naruto was unable to even come close to dodging ST, and KCM Naruto's speed is very close to Ei's. So no, by no means is the effect of ST slower than Ei's speed.
> 
> ...



Nagato never used ST on KCM naruto so it's impossible to say whether or not he could dodge it. regardless of how fast it is it isn't instant, tobirama with chakra sensing should be able to detect it's activation and counter accordingly like I said b4.


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## LostSelf (Feb 4, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Nagato never used ST on KCM naruto so it's impossible to say whether or not he could dodge it. regardless of how fast it is it isn't instant, tobirama with chakra sensing should be able to detect it's activation and counter accordingly like I said b4.



Sage users failed to sense Nagato's Shinra Tensei. And RM Naruto couldn't sense it either. Since Sage users are probably better than the other sensors sensing, then i do not see Tobirama sensing it.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 4, 2014)

Tobirama slits Nagatos throat.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 5, 2014)

Excuse me what manga are you reading? Hell even in the anime Nagato used ST on KCM Naruto. 

You can see he's obviously using ST, and on the right side of the image there's Naruto getting sent flying back.



Plus like LostSelf said, sage users were unable to detect ST, so I doubt Tobirama can.


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## richard lewis (Feb 5, 2014)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> Excuse me what manga are you reading? Hell even in the anime Nagato used ST on KCM Naruto.
> 
> You can see he's obviously using ST, and on the right side of the image there's Naruto getting sent flying back.
> 
> ...



considering naruto was unfazed by the ST it would lead me to believe that he must have dodged it,  B fight Sasuke was still injured too. you can see on the bottom panel where bee was knocked down by the blast but naruto seems to have avoided it. Also Bee was completely unharmed by the attack so I don't see it doing much harm to tobirama even if it did land. 

As for naruto not sensing ST, he's not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer so it doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't have thought of such a strategy but tobirama who is much smarter probably would.


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## Fiiction (Feb 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Explain how FTG undoes the damage that ST will do to Tobirama.



He can teleport right before Nagato gets it off, or he can teleport when he first gets contact with the force of st.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 5, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> He can teleport right before Nagato gets it off, or he can teleport when he first gets contact with the force of st.



Once he's hit then the damage is done. Furthermore no Doujutsu or sensory abilities have ever been able to predict Shinra Tensei. Tobirama will lose due to ST, therefore.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Once he's hit then the damage is done. Furthermore no Doujutsu or sensory abilities have ever been able to predict Shinra Tensei. Tobirama will lose due to ST, therefore.



Hold on, we have seen Shira tensei used multiple times. The damage comes from being hit by other objects pushed by the force not the force itself. Kakashi used a chain after shira tensei was used to avoid damages. Tobirama should be able to do the same thing. He won't know when Nagato uses shira tensei but the minute the force is released, he can then use hiraishin to move to a marker at a different place where he won't be in the path of shira tensei destruction. 

All in all, shira tensei won't hurt him. Even bansho tennin can be avoided by simply vanishing with hiraishin


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## RedChidori (Feb 5, 2014)

Tobirama loses indefinitely .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 5, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Hold on, we have seen Shira tensei used multiple times. The damage comes from being hit by other objects pushed by the force not the force itself. Kakashi used a chain after shira tensei was used to avoid damages. Tobirama should be able to do the same thing. He won't know when Nagato uses shira tensei but the minute the force is released, he can then use hiraishin to move to a marker at a different place where he won't be in the path of shira tensei destruction.
> 
> All in all, shira tensei won't hurt him. Even bansho tennin can be avoided by simply vanishing with hiraishin



You're telling me Tobirama and other opponents would be unharmed if they got hit with a lot of force that didn't slam them onto something?


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## Senjuclan (Feb 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're telling me Tobirama and other opponents would be unharmed if they got hit with a lot of force that didn't slam them onto something?



No I am telling that Kakashi was struck with shira tensei and used chains to avoid damage. I am telling that Kirabi was struck with shira tensei and used his bijuu form to avoid damage.  I am telling that Naruto was struck with shira tensei and used kyuubi's tails and tajuu kage bunshin to avoid damage. 

That my friend is how shira tensei works. It is the collateral damage that kills not the force itself. If Tobirama hiraishin out of it, he won't be damaged


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 5, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> considering naruto was unfazed by the ST it would lead me to believe that he must have dodged it,  They bleed you can see on the bottom panel where bee was knocked down by the blast but naruto seems to have avoided it. Also Bee was completely unharmed by the attack so I don't see it doing much harm to tobirama even if it did land.
> 
> As for naruto not sensing ST, he's not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer so it doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't have thought of such a strategy but tobirama who is much smarter probably would.



1.) Naruto was not unfazed - Not only in the manga does he appear to have been hit, but in the anime they display both of them taking the blast.

2.) Completely unharmed? Seriously where do you pull this shit from? First off Bee got sent flying back quite a ways. I really doubt that's unharmed. He put on a large amount of Gyuki's chakra then, hence he had some serious tanking power. So even in the case that we were sure that Bee took absolute 0 damage like you foolishly believe, it wouldn't mean anything because only a complete Tobirama wanker would claim Tobirama is near as durable as Bee. 

3.) Are you serious? Naruto's character generally displays lack of intelligence yes, but it's pretty god damn blatantly obvious since he fought the Six Paths of Pain that he's very adept as a strategist during fights. He has many feats showing this now. Anyone who reads the manga or even only watches the anime should know this. 

4.) Do you not realize that no one has ever dodged ST even once in the entire series? It's able to be used as an AoE and targeted jutsu, and unlike what you think, it's obviously extremely fast.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 5, 2014)

Tobirama summons Edo Hashirama, who proceeds to shit(literally) on Nagato.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 5, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Hold on, we have seen Shira tensei used multiple times. The damage comes from being hit by other objects pushed by the force not the force itself. Kakashi used a chain after shira tensei was used to avoid damages. Tobirama should be able to do the same thing. He won't know when Nagato uses shira tensei but the minute the force is released, he can then use hiraishin to move to a marker at a different place where he won't be in the path of shira tensei destruction.
> 
> All in all, shira tensei won't hurt him. Even bansho tennin can be avoided by simply vanishing with hiraishin



This is not correct, sorry to say.

First off, let me make sure this what you're saying?

When ST is used, the person effected by it will not be hurt unless they collide with something else?

If so, can't say I agree with you. One, assuming what you said was correct, there'd still be one object you're going to collide with even if there's nothing around. The crust of the earth. That's going to hurt. Plus why are we assuming they're no objects to collide with in the first place? I think it's made pretty apparent you're wrong about this anyways looking at what happened to Hinata and the toads. They both got knocked up by ST in a completely flattened crater with no objects around. (That ground in the way, tsk tsk)

Second, dude, are you confusing Bansho Tenin with Shinra Tensei or something? Kakashi didn't avoid the damage of ST. The chain was what he used to try and keep his clone from being pulled in by Bansho Tenin. Meanwhile Kakashi was hiding underneath rubble do to ST, and when he came out he was low on chakra and looked pretty beat up. ST was also what Tendo pain used to knock out Choji's dad and pretty much incapacitate Kakashi to the point he couldn't move anymore. 

Third thing I have to say. Tobirama can teleport, but there's nothing that suggests he has the reaction time to think about using hiraishin before he gets hit. Not a single person in the entire manga has ever reacted to ST before they got hit.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 5, 2014)

Waffle said:


> Tobirama summons Edo Hashirama, who proceeds to shit(literally) on Nagato.



If you bring in Edo Tensei then yeah Tobirama wins lmao.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Feb 5, 2014)

Don't see Tobirama, as strong as he is, to be portrayed on the same level as a Rinnegan user. Edo Tensei would be his only chance, and we do not know who he can Edo, nor do we know his skill in using the techniques, only that he is worse than Orochimaru.

So, unless you go by a sketchy assumption of his Edo Tensei, Nagato should be the winner.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 5, 2014)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> This is not correct, sorry to say.
> 
> First off, let me make sure this what you're saying?
> 
> ...



1. Tobirama won't collide with the earth since he can teleport
2. The toads and Hinata we're hurt because the force of shira tensei made them collide with other objects, namely the ground. Hitting the ground at high velocity is what hurt them
3. Sorry I got confused. I thought Kakashi used the chains against Shiraz tensei. I will trust you and assume it was bansho tennin. However, it does not change what I said, shira tensei itself is not what kills but rather the collateral damage the force causes
4. I never suggested that he would use hiraishin before getting hit. He would use it after getting hit but before colliding with anything


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## LostSelf (Feb 6, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> No I am telling that Kakashi was struck with shira tensei and used chains to avoid damage. I am telling that Kirabi was struck with shira tensei and used his bijuu form to avoid damage.  I am telling that Naruto was struck with shira tensei and used kyuubi's tails and tajuu kage bunshin to avoid damage.
> 
> That my friend is how shira tensei works. It is the collateral damage that kills not the force itself. If Tobirama hiraishin out of it, he won't be damaged



Sage Naruto had a painful look when he was hit by the attack and the clone dispersed. Chouza was one shotted by the attack, as well as Kakashi.

An attack that comes so hard to send three boss summons away with amazing force should hit you pretty hard.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Sage Naruto had a painful look when he was hit by the attack and the clone dispersed. Chouza was one shotted by the attack, as well as Kakashi.
> 
> An attack that comes so hard to send three boss summons away with amazing force should hit you pretty hard.



Again, you are arguing against something I never suggested. Those people got hurt because the attack hit them against something at high velocity, in most cases the ground. If Tobirama never hits the ground, the attack will have no effect that is my contention.


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## LostSelf (Feb 6, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Again, you are arguing against something I never suggested. Those people got hurt because the attack hit them against something at high velocity, in most cases the ground. If Tobirama never hits the ground, the attack will have no effect that is my contention.



Crashing hard has never been an issue. Madara crashed hard against the floor when he arrived to help Obito. Tsunade crashed har when she was hit by Magatama, Danzo crashed hard and went through a bridge by a Susano'o punch and got up like nothing.

The fact that SM Naruto, who tanked several spiked rocks in his chest, destroying it, felt pain when hit should tell us that the jutsu hurts, and it can be more destructive the more effort you put into it. About your contention is what im debating.

Also, nothing suggest that Tobirama won't keep momemtum behind after he is hit just like Minato.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 6, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Crashing hard has never been an issue. Madara crashed hard against the floor when he arrived to help Obito. Tsunade crashed har when she was hit by Magatama, Danzo crashed hard and went through a bridge by a Susano'o punch and got up like nothing.
> 
> The fact that SM Naruto, who tanked several spiked rocks in his chest, destroying it, felt pain when hit should tell us that the jutsu hurts, and it can be more destructive the more effort you put into it. About your contention is what im debating.
> 
> Also, nothing suggest that Tobirama won't keep momemtum behind after he is hit just like Minato.



1. Minato used regular shunshin there not hiraishin
2. Madara did not crash. He landed out of his own volition, therefore he controlled it. Tsunade and Danzou did not crash with the velocity that shira tensei causes. That's why shira tensei creates craters whereas susano'o punches do not


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## LostSelf (Feb 6, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Minato used regular shunshin there not hiraishin



Minato said he was forced to use the FTG to separate him from Kushina.



> 2. Madara did not crash. He landed out of his own volition, therefore he controlled it. Tsunade and Danzou did not crash with the velocity that shira tensei causes.



Danzo surely crashed harder than the conventional Shinra Tensei. At least harder than the one that almost killed Chouza. Or harder than the one that made SM Naruto's painfully expression.



> That's why shira tensei creates craters whereas susano'o punches do not



ST creates craters because it's omnidirectonal sometimes and it hits the ground as well. Also, to hit you harder than a Susano'o punch should be quite painfully.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Feb 7, 2014)

Restrict ST for a more interesting match


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 7, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> No I am telling that Kakashi was struck with shira tensei and used chains to avoid damage. I am telling that Kirabi was struck with shira tensei and used his bijuu form to avoid damage.  I am telling that Naruto was struck with shira tensei and used kyuubi's tails and tajuu kage bunshin to avoid damage.
> 
> That my friend is how shira tensei works. It is the collateral damage that kills not the force itself. If Tobirama hiraishin out of it, he won't be damaged



Kakashi never used chains to avoid Shinra Tensei damage. 
Killer B has shown decent tanking feats, superior than the vast majority of characters.
Naruto was hit while with a shroud that absorbs damage. Naruto still felt the effect of the omnidirectional Shinra Tensei which is still far weaker than Nagato's.

You realise Shinra Tensei's power can vary.

Now, using an extreme example, you're telling me if Tobirama got hit with a directional CST, he would be okay if he warped before landing?


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