# Base Gai vs (canon) SM Jiraiya *TAIJUTSU ONLY*



## Troyse22 (Jun 15, 2020)

Base Gai vs (canon) SM Jiraiya.

Canon Jiraiya=SM Jiraiya with abilities displayed in canon, meaning no ghost punches or SM sensing, any other variant will be labeled "fanfic Jiraiya"

My opinion? My money is on Gai since he managed to stalemate a Kamui manipulating Rinnegan Obito in a Taijutsu battle, something I couldn't imagine canon Jiraiya replicating.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 15, 2020)

Base Gai was given a freebie Dynamic entry meant for Kisame and Itachi on Base Jiraiya and got tanked.



Without gates Gai won't compete.


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## jesusus (Jun 15, 2020)

Gai decks this fodder who got barebacked by Asura.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 15, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Gai decks this fodder who got barebacked by Asura.



Gai is one of the only Shinobi in the NBD who can stand toe to toe with Rinnegan Obito in CQC and still be labeled a Jonin level by the Sannin camp

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

*Sage Jiraiya *_stomps_.

As another poster mentioned, Guy couldn't give J-Man anything more than a nosebleed when the latter was in base. Sage Jiraiya is _much tougher_, being able to tank a direct hit from Pain's gigantic bull summon (which portrayal wise should be _at least _as strong as Base Guy if not stronger) without so much as a scratch on his person. Jiraiya's strength and speed are also *massively amplified* in this form - with a single kick, the Sage was able to send the Human Path bouncing off the ground flying, bouncing off the ground multiple times like a ragdoll while cracking it each time, and _ultimately crashing into a large rock with enough force to create a small cave_. He outpaced his own sandal falling to the ground and practically zoomed around the battlefield while fighting Pain.

While Troyse22 brings up a good point about how Guy was able to fend off a gunbai-wielding Obito with nunchucks, Obito and Sage Jiraiya are very different opponents. The former was _relatively_ stationary (relying mainly on phasing and his gunbai to avoid getting hit as opposed to more conventional speed) and no stronger than Kakashi physically - the latter is much more mobile and has *genuinely superhuman strength *even by ninja standards. We already saw Kisame, a character who didn't have phasing or a gunbai to hide behind, trounce Guy in CQC because of his superhuman strength and durability. Sage Jiraiya has both of those qualities, greater speed than Kisame had, and the advantage of fighting the Green Beast when the latter _can't _use the Eight Gates.

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## jesusus (Jun 15, 2020)

Doesn't matter how physically strong _Rinnegan _Obito was. But the fact is this is a more powerful Obito than the one that was trolling the _Fourth Raikage_

and almost did Minato in as a 14 year old.

The fact that only Gai with a pair of nunchaku was depended upon by the likes of_ Kyuubi Chakra Mode _Naruto and _Mangekyo Sharingan_ Kakashi in engaging a _Rinnegan (_The Ocular power of the Six Paths mind you) Obito in close quarters speaks volumes about his taijutsu ability and reflexes.

On the other hand, _Sage Mode _Jiraiya's only taijutsu feats is speed blitzing _Human Path _(probably the least battle worthy Path) is not impressive. He could also not react and defend against _Asura Path's iconic blitz. _While _Pain Arc _Kakashi had no trouble reacting to and almost killing the same said Path. The same Kakashi who is somewhat weaker than his_ War Arc _self, and way worse in taijutsu than Might Gai.

Jiraiya's peer, fellow _Legendary Sannin _Tsunade, also almost got blitzed by_ Asura Path._ 
It is safe to say Jiraiya's taijutsu is fairly weak compared to the other tools in his arsenal. Him and Tsunade are nowhere near the level of the others and would get warped almost immediately in close quarters by _Rinnegan_ Obito as demonstrated above. It is clear in a taijutsu only fight, Konoha's _Sublime Green Beast of Prey _would dominate almost effortlessly as the fruits of his labor from years of honing his taijutsu to be unrivaled in the Shinobi world.

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## Soldierofficial (Jun 15, 2020)

SM Jiraiya blitz this overrated fodder.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Doesn't matter how physically strong _Rinnegan _Obito was. But the fact is this is a more powerful Obito than the one that was trolling the _Fourth Raikage_
> 
> and almost did Minato in as a 14 year old.
> 
> ...



The issue with your post is that you're conflating very different opponents (and situations). Just because Guy did relatively well against Obito - _mind you, it's not like he actually defeated or hurt the Uchiha even once in their exchange_ - does not mean he would do so well against Sage Jiraiya. The closest opponent to Sage Jiraiya that Guy has fought is *Kisame*, and the former _lost _their CQC exchange in Part II by virtue of Kisame's superhuman strength. J-Man has both that and superhuman speed.

Also, Obito was not only dealing with Base Guy but also Kakashi and Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto. Outside of his phasing powers and gunbai, Obito isn't even that good at CQC - he lost to Kakashi in CQC when deprived of his phasing powers and gunbai. His Rinnegan didn't really help him there at all. Jiraiya, in contrast, has a 4.5 (almost 5, the _highest possible stat_) in Taijutsu, Power, and Speed according to the Third Databook - and that's one who isn't _even_ using Sage Mode to amplify his abilities.

Obito is not Sage Jiraiya, and Guy does not have Kakashi as well as Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto backing him up against Sage Jiraiya here. If he did, he'd win. But he doesn't, so he loses. Badly. Guy can't even _*hurt*_ J-Man here, which is an issue.

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## Onda Vital (Jun 15, 2020)

Jiraiya may have lost his arm to Asura but Obito lost his to Konan so I don't think base Gai stalemating Obito is that impressive tbh.

30% Kisame was also holding his own against almight base Gai. And Asuma was holding Kisame in CQC.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2020)

Canon = DBIV
Canon = MA/PA have SM
Canon = Jiriaya fighting blind in a smoke screen
Canon =/ Troy’s Shark on Man Hentai

But ether way Jiriaya negs Gai here give his sheer physical might


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## Serene Grace (Jun 15, 2020)

Jiraiya beats the shit out of him


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## Ejenku (Jun 15, 2020)

I think it would go similar to how it did vs Kisame. Gai is the superior cqc combatant but Sage Jiraiya would have superior strength and durability. Gai instead of just dodging and finding openings would try to Parry/block a strike. Thats where he losses. Sage Jiraiya also would have the toads to assist in cqc

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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

Ejenku said:


> I think it would go similar to how it did vs Kisame. Gai is the superior cqc combatant but Sage Jiraiya would have superior strength and durability. Gai instead of just dodging and finding openings would try to Parry/block a strike. Thats where he losses. Sage Jiraiya also would have the toads to assist in cqc


But Jiraiya's punch was getting blocked by Human Path IIRC. Both Jiraiya and the Path don't have more impressive strength feats than Gai.

Being Sage does not translate to being stronger than non-Sages with better feats


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## Onda Vital (Jun 15, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But Jiraiya's punch was getting blocked by Human Path IIRC. Both Jiraiya and the Path don't have more impressive strength feats than Gai.


SM Naruto's punches were tanked by Animal path even tho he was tossing rhinos and shit. So it is not always consistent.


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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> SM Naruto's punches were tanked by Animal path even tho he was tossing rhinos and shit. So it is not always consistent.


When did Animal Path tank Naruto's punch?


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## Onda Vital (Jun 15, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> When did Animal Path tank Naruto's punch?


Inside Gamabunta's mouth.


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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> Inside Gamabunta's mouth.


Eh, tank?

He got immediately knocked down after being hit. And seeing how that Animal Path doesn't have any durability oopses, that's just a feat for him.

Deva Path could also take a kick from SM Naruto.

Not every Path's physicals are the same.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 15, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Not every Path's physicals are the same.



Rendering your original point irrelevant.


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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Rendering your original point irrelevant.


No?
I never said Human Path's feat translates to other Paths or viceversa.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 15, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No?



Yes.

You can't quantify or lateral the physicals of the path (by your own admission) therefore it can neither be a feat or anti feat.


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## Onda Vital (Jun 15, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He got immediately knocked down after being hit.


Knocked down with barely and damage. In the and Naruto needed rasengan to kill her.

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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes.
> 
> You can't quantify or lateral the physicals of the path (by your own admission) therefore it can neither be a feat or anti feat.


Which is pretty much my point.

Neither SM Jiraiya or Human Path have any strength feats outside of the two scenes they clashed with each other. So we really don't know how strong SM Jiraiya is.


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## Subtle (Jun 15, 2020)

Jiraiya wins,

SM provides Jiraiya with an exceptional boost, increasing his strength and speed. Base Gai will require the use of gates and won't be able to do anything to Jiraiya without them.


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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> Knocked down with barely and damage
> 
> In the and Naruto needed rasengan to kill her.


As I've already said, Animal Path can just be that durable.

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## ShinAkuma (Jun 15, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Which is pretty much my point.



Ok. So not a feat.



> Neither SM Jiraiya or Human Path have any strength feats outside of the two scenes they clashed with each other. So we really don't know how strong SM Jiraiya is.



But we know SM Jiraiya is stronger than base Jiraiya who tanked base Gai's dynamic entry. (Direct comparison)

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## t0xeus (Jun 15, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok. So not a feat.


Obviously, since I never said that.



ShinAkuma said:


> But we know SM Jiraiya is stronger than base Jiraiya who tanked base Gai's dynamic entry. (Direct comparison)


He starts bleeding from the nose actually and has to stop the bleeding with cotton.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 15, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Obviously, since I never said that.



You brought it up.

If it's not relevant no reason to bring it up.



> He starts bleeding from the nose actually and has to stop the bleeding with cotton.



I said he tanked it, not that he no sold it.

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## Onda Vital (Jun 15, 2020)

I may have found some physical feats from Jiraiya.

Just before Jiraiya entered SM, bull run at him.


Then bull was sent flying and he dispawned.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> I may have found some physical feats from Jiraiya.
> 
> Just before Jiraiya entered SM, bull run at him.
> 
> ...



Yep. Sage Jiraiya got hit by that massive bull - which is strong enough to wreck a building - and came out completely unscathed.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 15, 2020)

Gai reks. 

SM Jman physicals are overrated imo, the best thing he did was kick the weakest path in the eyes, making him blind.

On the other hand, that same path a few moments later no diffed Jmans punch like it was thrown by a 5 year old Sakura.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Gai reks.
> 
> SM Jman physicals are overrated imo, *the best thing he did was kick the weakest path in the eyes*, making him blind.
> 
> On the other hand, that same path a few moments later no diffed Jmans punch like it was thrown by a 5 year old Sakura.



That kick was a lot more destructive than that, actually - and it's safe to say Sage Jiraiya can do stuff like lifting giant toad statues like Naruto did with that special oil. Either of those things is far more impressive than anything Base Guy has ever done strength wise. Meanwhile, Base Jiraiya took a kick to the face from Base Guy and shrugged it off.



Onda Vital said:


> Knocked down with barely and damage. *In the and Naruto needed rasengan to kill her*.



Proof?


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## jesusus (Jun 15, 2020)

Destruction > Lifting.

Gai destroyed a huge boulder and impressed Obito. That would easily make Jiraiya bleed worse than his Part 1 Dynamic Entry did


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

jesusus said:


> *Destruction > Lifting*.
> 
> Gai destroyed a huge boulder and impressed Obito. *That would easily make Jiraiya bleed worse than his Part 1 Dynamic Entry did *



I would say lifting > destruction, if anything.

Also, considering Base Jiraiya barely bled at all from Part 1 Dynamic Entry and considering the massive boost Sage Mode grants his physicals, that shit would tickle J-Man at best lol. Pain praised J-Man's strength too and he had super strength.

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## Onda Vital (Jun 15, 2020)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Proof?


I mean kunai to the throat would have worked as well but it seem like punches weren't doing it.

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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 15, 2020)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> That kick was a lot more destructive than that, actually - and it's safe to say Sage Jiraiya can do stuff like lifting giant toad statues like Naruto did with that special oil. Either of those things is far more impressive than anything Base Guy has ever done strength wise. Meanwhile, Base Jiraiya took a kick to the face from Base Guy and shrugged it off.



It was an impressive kick but it doesn't speak much about his overall strength.


Specially after seeing this path no sell his punch.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

Onda Vital said:


> I mean kunai to the throat would have worked as well but it seem like punches weren't doing it.



I honestly have to call PIS or PNJ on Naruto using a Rasenrengan at all lol. Like, even if Frog Katas don't work, just stab her in the face with a kunai using all your strength lol. That would save a lot more chakra than expending it on a Ninjutsu.


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## jesusus (Jun 15, 2020)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> I would say lifting > destruction, if anything.
> 
> Also, considering Base Jiraiya barely bled at all from Part 1 Dynamic Entry and considering the massive boost Sage Mode grants his physicals, that shit would tickle J-Man at best lol. Pain praised J-Man's strength too and he had super strength.


It takes more energy to destroy an object than to lift it. An angry mom on adrenaline can lift a car but she certainly can't destroy it.


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## Onda Vital (Jun 15, 2020)

So there are low and high end feats for both Gai and Jiraiya.

Jiraiya's punch got no sold by blind path while Jiraiya tanked Gai's kick to he face.

Jiraiya also send bull flying while Gai broke boudler.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

jesusus said:


> *It takes more energy to destroy an object than to lift it*. An angry mom on adrenaline can lift a car but she certainly can't destroy it.



True, but Jiraiya wasn't trying to destroy those toad statues, was he now? My point is that Base Guy likely couldn't have lifted those statues at all, whereas Sage Jiraiya_ could_. SM Jiraiya shouldn't be that much weaker than Sage Naruto, who was able to stop a Gamabunta-sized summon in its tracks (said summon was strong enough to tear up the ground underneath it with its charge) before hurling it into the sky so high that Gamabunta and his friends were forced to jump up even_ multiple panels later_ to deal with it. Even if Jiraiya has only a quarter of that strength, that's way better than anything Guy has done without the Sixth Gate or beyond.


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## Bonly (Jun 15, 2020)

Jiraiya would likely win more times then not, while Gai is more skilled, the sheer boost in speed and power that Jiraiya gets from Sage is likely gonna be too much for Gai to overcome throughout the fight

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## Jad (Jun 15, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Jiraiya would likely win more times then not, while Gai is more skilled, the sheer boost in speed and power that Jiraiya gets from Sage is likely gonna be too much for Gai to overcome throughout the fight


The boost in speed Jiraiya got was still reacted to by Preta.
And the strength he got was easily blocked by Human path.

Jiraiya wasn't exactly faster than your average speedster.


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## jesusus (Jun 15, 2020)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> True, but Jiraiya wasn't trying to destroy those toad statues, was he now? My point is that Base Guy likely couldn't have lifted those statues either, whereas Sage Jiraiya_ could_. SM Jiraiya shouldn't be that much weaker than Sage Naruto, who was able to stop a Gamabunta-sized summon in its tracks (said summon was strong enough to tear up the ground underneath it with its charge) before hurling it into the sky so high that Gamabunta and his friends were forced to jump up even_ multiple panels later_ to deal with it. Even if Jiraiya has only a quarter of that strength, that's way better than anything Guy has done without the Sixth Gate.


Nah if Gai can bust huge boulder casually there's no doubt he has the strength to lift them as well. Gai can bust walls and send things flying as well. He's no slouch in strength..  
Pair that with this.. Parrying Obito who can engage Minato and A4 and live.

And you get a beast.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 15, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Nah if Gai can bust huge boulder casually *there's no doubt he has the strength to lift them as well*. *Gai can bust walls and send things flying as well. He's no slouch in strength*..
> Pair that with this.. Parrying Obito who can engage Minato and A4 and live.
> 
> And you get a beast.



The boulder Guy busted is way smaller than those stone toads lol. Seems a lot weaker too.


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## Zero890 (Jun 15, 2020)

Jiraiya stomps, not a match.

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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> You brought it up.
> 
> If it's not relevant no reason to bring it up.


I didn't tho. 

Onda Vital started bringing up feats from other Paths, so I only informed him that Paths differ in physicals and since Animal has no other feats of durability, Naruto not oneshotting is tells us nothing but that Animal is durable.

Had nothing to do with my initial point.



ShinAkuma said:


> I said he tanked it, not that he no sold it.


Alright, he didn't get oneshotted, you're right about that. 

Now switch Dynamic Entry for the Pinky Crusher he used on Gedo Mazo or nunchakus hit, and not even cotton might save Jiraiya this time.


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## Jad (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Obviously, since I never said that.
> 
> 
> He starts bleeding from the nose actually and has to stop the bleeding with cotton.


Damn I love that scene. It's Gai literally putting a Sannin on his ass 

No hate, Jiraiya took it like a champ. Next time maybe he can try and dodge it.

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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I didn't tho.
> 
> Onda Vital started bringing up feats from other Paths, so I only informed him that Paths differ in physicals and since Animal has no other feats of durability, Naruto not oneshotting is tells us nothing but that Animal is durable.
> 
> Had nothing to do with my initial point.





What the fuck are you babbling about?



You literally brought it up *out of nowhere* as an anti feat.

loooooool




> Alright, he didn't get oneshotted, you're right about that.



Tanked.

That's what I'm right about.



> Now switch Dynamic Entry for the Pinky Crusher he used on Gedo Mazo or nunchakus hit, and not even cotton might save Jiraiya this time.



Gai wouldn't get any freebies in a real fight. Nor would he get a chance to apologize. Jman would just paste him.


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## Tri (Jun 16, 2020)

Jiraiya should win rather handily here.


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> What the fuck are you babbling about?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I was just thinking two steps ahead of him there. 

I knew that if I asked "why is Jiraiya stronger?", he'd bring up the feat of Human Path getting kicked. So I just said that Human Path blocked his punch, meaning Jiraiya has no actual legit strength feats in the manga.

As the only guy he showed his good strength against no-sold it moments later. 

So I just shut down his argument in advance.



ShinAkuma said:


> Tanked.
> 
> That's what I'm right about.


Not really. 

The scene cuts. It's possible Jiraiya was knocked out and had to be helped to get up before we see him again.



ShinAkuma said:


> Gai wouldn't get any freebies in a real fight. Nor would he get a chance to apologize. Jman would just paste him.


Jman definitely doesn't have the feats for this argument to work. IMO it's a close fight as it is.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, I was just thinking two steps ahead of him there.





No, you're exposed.




> So I just shut down his argument in advance.



Deepthroating a double standard of your own creation isn't "shutting down his argument".

It's shutting down your own loooooooool


> Not really.



Really.

That's why I said it.


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## LostSelf (Jun 16, 2020)

Gai can outskill SM Jiraiya with superior Taijutsu skill. His Taijutsu skill was taking in consideration in three instances, if not four.

Though his most impressive one was his clash against Obito who is kind of overlooked. While Gai was not going to beat Obito in base for extremely obvious reasons, we have a very good comparison here when it comes to Taijutsu skills and this is KCM Naruto.

KCM Naruto was being fodderized by Obito in separate ocassions in one-two panels. And that was a Naruto also using clones in close combat. Naruto was helpless in this regard. While Gai showcased skills against the same opponent Naruto was suffering against that showed a huge skill difference in this art. Not to mention that this same opponent in a weaker version almost two panneled Minato had it not been for Hiraishin.

So, Jiraiya is outmatched featwise on great lengths by skill alone, which is what this match is for. The advantage he has is possible greater strength and durability that could allow him to put down Gai first.

But with that, we resort to gates. Gai could keep operating with his body being turned into ashes and the far higher damaging effects of Gates than Jiraiya can dish out with Taijutsu only, while we cannot say the same for Jiraiya taking constant beatings as he is outskilled by Gai in Taijutsu.

Money's on Gai.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> Gai can outskill SM Jiraiya with superior Taijutsu skill. His Taijutsu skill was taking in consideration in three instances, if not four.
> 
> *Though his most impressive one was his clash against Obito who is kind of overlooked*. While Gai was not going to beat Obito in base for extremely obvious reasons, we have a very good comparison here when it comes to Taijutsu skills and this is KCM Naruto.
> 
> ...



Base Jiraiya tanked Base Guy's Dynamic Entry, Sage Jiraiya is even tougher (much more so in fact), and the Eight Gates boost Guy's durability (in addition to his strength). I don't think Guy's clash against Obito is overlooked at all, in fact I would say it is blown out of proportion - Obito was actually *worse than Kakashi in CQC* and lost the fight they had in the space-time dimension and in that fight, was occupied with_ three_ opponents as opposed to one (KCM Naruto, Kakashi, _and _Guy).


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## Mithos (Jun 16, 2020)

There's no way for Gai to overcome the difference in speed or strength here, even if we don't grant Jiraiya his _Frog Kata_ (which the DB tells us he can use, making it canon). Let's remember that despite his speed and skill, (Base) Gai was struggling in close combat against Fake Kisame, and actually lost the first attempt in CQC, getting himself smashed in the chest and spitting blood because Kisame overpowered him. Not only could Kisame react to Gai's movements, he could block and counter attack. Likewise, in their second battle, Kisame easily blocked (Base) Gai's kick without issue.

Sage Jiraiya will have no problem reacting to Gai's strikes, is able to block them with his enhanced strength and durability, and can potentially cripple or seriously injure Gai with a single blow given that he was able to one-shot a giant bull, as well as blind a Path with a kick. Sage Jiraiya is also much faster, with a feat of outpacing his sandal hitting the ground even though he didn't move until it was mere inches from the ground. That's in addition to blitzing Human Path. He also blitzed Animal Path and interrupted the Path's hand-seals.

In short, Sage Jiraiya reacts to everything Gai can dish out and quickly overwhelms him with his sage-enhanced speed, reflexes, and strength. Add in _Frog Kata_ and Gai really can't do much.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Matto said:


> There's no way for Gai to overcome the difference in speed or strength here, even if we don't grant Jiraiya his _Frog Kata_ (which the DB tells us he can use, making it canon). *Let's remember that despite his speed and skill, (Base) Gai was struggling in close combat against Fake Kisame, and actually lost the first attempt in CQC, getting himself smashed in the chest and spitting blood because Kisame overpowered him. Not only could Kisame react to Gai's movements, he could block and counter attack. Likewise, in their second battle, Kisame easily blocked (Base) Gai's kick without issue*.
> 
> Sage Jiraiya will have no problem reacting to Gai's strikes, is able to block them with his enhanced strength and durability, and can potentially cripple or seriously injure Gai with a single blow given that he was able to one-shot a giant bull, as well as blind a Path with a kick. Sage Jiraiya is also much faster, with a feat of outpacing his sandal hitting the ground even though he didn't move until it was mere inches from the ground. That's in addition to blitzing Human Path. He also blitzed Animal Path and interrupted the Path's hand-seals.
> 
> In short, Sage Jiraiya reacts to everything Gai can dish out, and will quickly overwhelm him with his sage-enhanced speed, reflexes, and strength. Add in Frog Kata and Gai really can't do much.



I love how people are forgetting Guy's miserable attempts at defeating Kisame without the Eight Gates here.


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## LostSelf (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Base Jiraiya tanked Base Guy's Dynamic Entry, Sage Jiraiya is even tougher (much more so in fact), and the Eight Gates boost Guy's durability (in addition to his strength). I don't think Guy's clash against Obito is overlooked at all, in fact I would say it is blown out of proportion - Obito was actually *worse than Kakashi in CQC* and lost the fight they had in the space-time dimension and in that fight, was occupied with_ three_ opponents as opposed to one (KCM Naruto, Kakashi, _and _Guy).



This was a comedy relief scene, not sure how it'd fit a real battle scenario. Also, gates don't boost durability, and even if they did, we're talking about pain tolerance and endurance. If gates increased that, everybody would be able to open them since gates would prepare your body to do so.

Gai's clash against Obito is not overblown because we have the same Obito having a very easy time in Taijutsu against Naruto. And Obito's clash against Kakashi was not even using Kamui, obviously he'd be weaker.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> *This was a comedy relief scene, not sure how it'd fit a real battle scenario*. *Also, gates don't boost durability*, and even if they did, we're talking about pain tolerance and endurance. If gates increased that, everybody would be able to open them since gates would prepare your body to do so.
> 
> *Gai's clash against Obito is not overblown because we have the same Obito having a very easy time in Taijutsu against Naruto*. And Obito's clash against Kakashi was not even using Kamui, obviously he'd be weaker.



That might work as an excuse if Jiraiya took *way more than a nosebleed* (comedy relief scenes generally _ignore_ durability as opposed to acknowledging it, think Chi-Chi scaring and beating up Goku for instance) - he didn't. Also, the Eight Gates absolutely boost durability, unless you think Base Guy's leg is really harder than Madara's chakra shell that tanked BSM Naruto's Tailed Beast Bomb. It's a required secondary power. The boost is just temporary and taxes your body once it's gone.

Yes, Guy's clash against Obito is overblown. Obito was fighting Guy, KCM Naruto, and Kakashi at the same time when he was using the Mangekyo Sharingan. Sage Jiraiya and Madara's protege are two entirely different opponents, and Sage Jiraiya's fighting style is more like Kisame's - Kisame who beat the green beast in base. Being able to fight a dude with phasing abilities as part of a team has nothing to do with fighting a dude with super strength alone. The two situations are very different.


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I love how people are forgetting Guy's miserable attempts at defeating Kisame without the Eight Gates here.


Could be because we realize Kisame would have mopped the floor with Jiraiya in CQC based on his feats.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> *Could be because we realize Kisame would have mopped the floor with Jiraiya in CQC based on his feats*.



Who's ''we''? You don't speak for everyone here.


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who's ''we''? You don't speak for everyone here.


The people who you think forgot about it.

And I do speak for everyone.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> The people who you think forgot about it.
> 
> *And I do speak for everyone*.



No, you don't. You'd be arrogant to think you even could.


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, you don't. You'd be arrogant to think you even could.


I do, did, and I will continue on doing it.

Now explain why Jiraiya doesn't get punked in CQC far worse than Gai or stop quoting me.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> *I do, did, and I will continue on doing it*.
> 
> *Now explain why Jiraiya doesn't get punked in CQC far worse than Gai* or stop quoting me.



Well, feel free to make a fool out of yourself. I ain't getting in your way.

Technically, you're the one who should explain why Kisame could ever punk Jiraiya in CQC to begin with. Sage Jiraiya is faster, has strength comparable to Sage Naruto *who can throw gigantic animals far into the sky to the point the Toad Triad need to jump high up themselves - multiple panels later - to take them out, and that too after stopping the destructive charge of one that was tearing up the ground underneath it*, and has durability enough to no-sell Base Guy's Dynamic Entry even outside SM.


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Well, feel free to make a fool out of yourself. I ain't getting in your way.
> 
> Technically, you're the one who should explain why Kisame could ever punk Jiraiya in CQC to begin with.


No, that's not how it works. 

YOU made the claim. You back it up. I am not posting evidence for the claims you make. 

You made the claim of Gai losing to Kisame in CQC being somehow relevant here. So explain why is it relevant - I assume it is because Jiraiya would have done a better job, since otherwise it makes no sense to bring it up.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, that's not how it works.
> 
> YOU made the claim. You back it up. I am not posting evidence for the claims you make.
> 
> *You made the claim of Gai losing to Kisame in CQC being somehow relevant here. So explain why is it relevant - I assume it is because Jiraiya would have done a better job, since otherwise it makes no sense to bring it up*.



You do realize I wrote an entire post about why that's relevant, right? Not my fault you didn't see it or may have been too lazy to even look at it. Sage Jiraiya, like Kisame (and unlike Obito), is a brawler with super strength and durability. He also has super speed, something Kisame does *not* have. And if Guy had trouble with Kisame, he'd have trouble with SM Jiraiya.

Also, I edited my original post in case you want to read it.


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## Zero890 (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> And I do speak for everyone.



You speak only for yourself, Jiraiya stomps.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You do realize I wrote an entire post about why that's relevant, right? Not my fault you didn't see it or may have been too lazy to even look at it. Sage Jiraiya, like Kisame (and unlike Obito), is a brawler with super strength and durability. He also has super speed, something Kisame does *not* have. And if Guy had trouble with Kisame, he'd have trouble with SM Jiraiya.
> 
> Also, I edited my original post in case you want to read it.


Can you post the feats of that super-strength or super-speed?

Because Kisame has super-strength backed by actual feats. And he is fast enough to deal with Killer Bee in CQC, the guy who was moving too fast even for 3T Sasuke.



Zero890 said:


> You speak only for yourself, Jiraiya stomps.


No, for everyone.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Can you post the feats of that super-strength or super-speed?
> 
> Because Kisame has super-strength backed by actual feats. And he is fast enough to deal with Killer Bee in CQC, the guy who was moving too fast even for 3T Sasuke.



Maybe you should just, idk, look up my original post on this same thread? SM Jiraiya has super strength backed up by actual feats too and Killer Bee didn't use his speed against Kisame so I don't know what the fuck that has to do with anything.


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## Zero890 (Jun 16, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No, for everyone.



Sorry but not everyone is wrong like you

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That might work as an excuse if Jiraiya took *way more than a nosebleed* (comedy relief scenes generally _ignore_ durability as opposed to acknowledging it, think Chi-Chi scaring and beating up Goku for instance) - he didn't. Also, the Eight Gates absolutely boost durability, unless you think Base Guy's leg is really harder than Madara's chakra shell that tanked BSM Naruto's Tailed Beast Bomb. It's a required secondary power. The boost is just temporary and taxes your body once it's gone.
> 
> Yes, Guy's clash against Obito is overblown. Obito was fighting Guy, KCM Naruto, and Kakashi at the same time when he was using the Mangekyo Sharingan. Sage Jiraiya and Madara's protege are two entirely different opponents, and Sage Jiraiya's fighting style is more like Kisame's - Kisame who beat the green beast in base. Being able to fight a dude with phasing abilities as part of a team has nothing to do with fighting a dude with super strength alone. The two situations are very different.



Having injuries doesn't mean these are not part of comedy relief scenes in the slightest when the same injury was shown as comedy. And you're using punching in a shonen to dictate the durability of a person. Would this mean Tsunade is as durable as her own punches? Naruto is not as durable as his flash kick, otherwise, he'd not have broken his angle after smashing Kisame.

Obito fought Gai 1 vs 1, there was no Naruto or Kakashi or Killer Bee there, nobody interfered. It is a very valid feat to gauge his skills.

And Kisame is not Jiraiya either. Kisame was disarmed by Gai and was about to be killed by his own sword used by Gai had Samehada not been alive.

Is not an accurate example imo. And Kisame with Samehada + using ninjutsu would beat a Taijutsu restricted Jiraiya.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> *Having injuries doesn't mean these are not part of comedy relief scenes in the slightest when the same injury was shown as comedy*. And you're using punching in a shonen to dictate the durability of a person. *Would this mean Tsunade is as durable as her own punches*? *Naruto is not as durable as his flash kick, otherwise, he'd not have broken his angle after smashing Kisame*.
> 
> Obito fought Gai 1 vs 1, there was no Naruto or Kakashi or Killer Bee there, nobody interfered. It is a very valid feat to gauge his skills.
> 
> ...



You missed my point. If that scene was played for comedy, Jiraiya would have taken a* lot *more damage.

Tsunade's punches are *chakra enhanced*. That's not her natural strength. KCM Naruto* is* as durable as his flash kick, he broke his ankle because he went too fast and got his leg trapped in a wall (*also, you do realize people can and do injure themselves with their own strength, right?*). If he _wasn't _that durable, his body would've been destroyed by the speed and impact involved. Obito didn't fight Guy 1-vs-1, KCM Naruto is shown helping Guy in that very same chapter and Kakashi is there as well.

Kisame is not Jiraiya, but the two are far more similar. Kisame overpowered and beat the shit out of Guy in CQC in spite of being slower and less skilled overall. SM Jiraiya can do so too.  Ninjutsu had nothing to do with it.


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## LostSelf (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You missed my point. If that scene was played for comedy, Jiraiya would have taken a* lot *more damage.
> 
> Tsunade's punches are *chakra enhanced*. That's not her natural strength. KCM Naruto* is* as durable as his flash kick, he broke his ankle because he went too fast and got his leg trapped in a wall (*also, you do realize people can and do injure themselves with their own strength, right?*). If he _wasn't _that durable, his body would've been destroyed by the speed and impact involved. Obito didn't fight Guy 1-vs-1, KCM Naruto is shown helping Guy in that very same chapter and Kakashi is there as well.
> 
> Kisame is not Jiraiya, but the two are far more similar. Kisame overpowered and beat the shit out of Guy in CQC in spite of being slower and less skilled overall. SM Jiraiya can do so too. Ninjutsu had nothing to do with it.



No, for a scene to be comedy relief you don't have to suffer a lot of damage or no damage at all. It just has to be funny, which was the case here seen in Jiraiya's annoyed face. Not to mention that even if you take that scene seriously, some stuff happened off panel considering we see Jiraiya standing and with something on his nose a panel after seeing him flying. 

Therefore, even taking the scene likely, at the very least, Jiraiya clashed to the floor, some reaction had to have happened considering Naruto was already tending Sasuke without saying anything of it and Jiraiya had the stuff on his nose.

That's hardly tanking and is being taken here as if Jiraiya received the hit and stayed on his feet. 

-- Yet, Naruto hit Kisame with his fist at the same speed. How come his leg is less durable than his fist? 

In Gai's exchange vs Obito, when did Naruto, Kakashi or Bee helped? And not at all. Kisame is stronger than SM Jiraiya physically considering Human path was able to easily block Jiraiya's punch while Gai couldn't do it with both hands. That already is a huge stretch. Not to mention that there were things beyond Taijutsu here because Kisame's swords backfired against Gai when Kisame was already done for.
Kisame also was intact after Hirudora, so he is even likely more durable than Jiraiya based on feats. Not something comparable in the slightest.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> No, for a scene to be comedy relief you don't have to suffer a lot of damage or no damage at all. It just has to be funny, which was the case here seen in Jiraiya's annoyed face. Not to mention that even if you take that scene seriously, some stuff happened off panel considering we see Jiraiya standing and with something on his nose a panel after seeing him flying.
> 
> Therefore, even taking the scene likely, at the very least, *Jiraiya clashed to the floor, some reaction had to have happened considering Naruto was already tending Sasuke without saying anything of it and Jiraiya had the stuff on his nose*.
> 
> ...



In other words, he...tanked it? A nosebleed isn't really that bad in a fight and Jiraiya wasn't exactly prepared to take a hit in the first place. Being sent flying isn't proof of damage. Chouji knocked Kakuzu down but couldn't injure him either.

Who told you Naruto's leg is less durable than his fist? Naruto *lost control of his speed* is the issue here.

Kakashi, Naruto, and Bee helped _multiple times_ against Obito. The two attacked alongside Guy.

Kisame was intact after Daytime Tiger *because Guy didn't want to kill him*. This was explicit.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 16, 2020)

All guy did was delay the inevitable, this doesn’t mean he can beat someone who is faster than him, stronger than him and more durable than him. We saw how fast it took for the far slower Kisame to overwhelm him, and guy is beating someone who is faster, but also has 2 sage toads that can easily throw a bjuii sized summoning up in the air like nothing? 

As usual the guy wank is at astronomical levels. Jiraiya punches his teeth out


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## Troyse22 (Jun 16, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> All guy did was delay the inevitable, this doesn’t mean he can beat someone who is faster than him, stronger than him and more durable than him. We saw how fast it took for the far slower Kisame to overwhelm him, and guy is beating someone who is faster, but also has 2 sage toads that can easily throw a bjuii sized summoning up in the air like nothing?
> 
> As usual the guy wank is at astronomical levels. Jiraiya punches his teeth out



Problem is you view everything backwards

Kisame has very solid CQC feats against 2 known speedsters, saying he's slow is, by all measures, stupid. Using his loss against Kisame to downplay him is idiotic

And this is purely a Taijutsu battle between Jiraiya and Gai, the elder toads are there for nothing in this situation than to keep Jiraiya in SM


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## Serene Grace (Jun 16, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame has very solid CQC feats against 2 known speedsters, saying he's slow is, by all measures, stupid.


Nobody said he’s slow, try actually reading my argument. I said he’s slower than Jiraiya which is fact that is supported by the manga, him reacting to someone that is faster than Jiraiya doesn’t make him faster than Jiraiya since far slower people can react to far faster people(Suigetsu, Jugo reacting to A4, Dodai reacting to A3).

Guy didn’t get overwhelmed because of Kisame’s speed, it was because of his strength so it’s more so you with the stupid/idiotic argument 


Troyse22 said:


> And this is purely a Taijutsu battle between Jiraiya and Gai, the elder toads are there for nothing in this situation than to keep Jiraiya in SM


The toads physical strength isn’t attributed to ninjutsu though


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## Troyse22 (Jun 16, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> Nobody said he’s slow, try actually reading my argument.





Serene Grace said:


> far slower Kisame



The implication is he's slow, yet he can fuck with speedsters in CQC consistently?



Serene Grace said:


> I said he’s slower than Jiraiya which is fact that is supported by the manga, him reacting to someone that is faster than Jiraiya doesn’t make him faster than Jiraiya



Yes if does.

If he can fuck with Gai and Bee in CQC consistently, he's faster in CQC than Jiraiya.

Period.



Serene Grace said:


> Guy didn’t get overwhelmed because of Kisame’s speed, it was because of his strength so it’s more so you with the stupid/idiotic argument



If Kisame was just a slow and dumb brute Gai would finesse on him left and right, yet both clashed for a notable amount of time, with Kisame only gaining the upper hand as the battle went on.

Kisame would never tag Gai if he was slow


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## Serene Grace (Jun 16, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> The implication is he's slow, yet he can fuck with speedsters in CQC consistently?


He’s SLOWER than Jiraiya. When has kisame ever overwhelmed anybody with his  speed? Whereas Jiraiya was overwhelming the hypersonic paths. SM Jiraiya>Kisame in speed 


Troyse22 said:


> Yes if does.
> 
> If he can fuck with Gai and Bee in CQC consistently, he's faster in CQC than Jiraiya.
> 
> Period.


Just because someone is faster than you doesn’t mean you can’t tag them lol. KCM Naruto is faster than V2 Jins, yet he got tagged by them and even Base Jins in CQC. Kisame reacting to Bee or Guy doesn’t make him fast. It does mean he is reflective enough to keep up with them in cqc. Kisame has never overwhelmed anybody with his speed 

If he has post the scan


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> If he can fuck with Gai and Bee in CQC consistently, he's faster in CQC than Jiraiya.



No, he's not. Bee didn't even have his seven swords when Kisame engaged him and martial arts skill is_ very _different from speed (Usain Bolt is way faster than Bruce Lee but would never beat Lee in hand-to-hand combat). Jiraiya and Kisame have the same Taijutsu stat (4.5). Base J-Man is faster in fact (4.5 > 3.5, and Kisame has _never _shown an impressive Body Flicker to compensate for this speed gap), and J-Man intercepted Kisame's sword swing with a summoning technique of all things from afar.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 16, 2020)

This is SM Jiraiya at peak performance while also having a blindside advantage..



Is this the peak of his superior strength and skill? 

Gai honestly mid diffs him.

Also @t0xeus does speak for everyone here

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> This is SM Jiraiya at peak performance while also having a blindside advantage..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read the chapter.

There was no blindside advantage.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> This is SM Jiraiya at peak performance while also having a blindside advantage..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is Base Gai at peak performance while also having a blindside advantage..



Is this the peak of his superior strength and skill? 

Jman honestly shit diffs him.

Also @ShinAkuma does speak for everyone logical here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> This is SM Jiraiya at peak performance while also having a blindside advantage..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nonono this is what will happen with Gai


*Spoiler*: __ 









Honestly Jiraiya stomps.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 16, 2020)

FlamingRain said:


> Read the chapter.
> 
> There was no blindside advantage.



There was. 

It just ended up getting cucked by shared vision is all.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> There was.
> 
> It just ended up getting cucked by shared vision is all.



The existence of shared vision means there was never a blindside advantage.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> This is SM Jiraiya at peak performance while also having a blindside advantage..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do realize that just means Human Path is as strong as Sage Jiraiya, right? 

If you want to be taken seriously, try posting the rest of the fight too.



Human Path blocking SM Jiraiya's punch doesn't make Jiraiya weak. It just means Human Path is also strong - much stronger than Base Guy (and Kisame, for that matter).


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You do realize that just means Human Path is as strong as Sage Jiraiya, right?
> 
> Human Path blocking SM Jiraiya's punch doesn't make Jiraiya weak. It just means Human Path is also strong - much stronger than Base Guy (and Kisame, for that matter).
> 
> This is like saying the Rasenshuriken is weak because the Third Raikage shrugged it off. Troll harder next time.



Yeah, I do realize it means SM Jman is as weak and unskilled as Human Path.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


>



Wouldn't this just prove Asura is faster and stronger than Gai?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


>


Very compelling argument that Asura>>>>>Base Gai.

Good job!


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## Zero890 (Jun 16, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Very compelling argument that Asura>>>>>Base Gai.



Asura>>7G Gai tho.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 16, 2020)

FlamingRain said:


> The existence of shared vision means there was never a blindside advantage.



Let's see, he was fighting against a blind path, he was attacking from his back and he was concealed in a cloud of dust.

I agree, shared vision helped greatly but if you think it equalized the situation while Pain could barely make out human and Jman inside the cloud, let's agree to disagree.



FlamingRain said:


> Wouldn't this just prove Asura is faster and stronger than Gai?



No, only that Asura is faster and stronger than SM Jman


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Yeah, I do realize it means SM Jman is as weak and unskilled as *Human Path*.



Human Path > Base Guy though. Guy would need the Gates to beat Human Path.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Human Path <  Base Guy though. Guy wouldn't need the Gates to beat Human Path.



Agreed


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Agreed, Human Path>>>7G Guy



IKR?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Let's see, he was fighting against a blind path, he was attacking from his back and he was concealed in a cloud of dust.
> 
> I agree, shared vision helped greatly but if you think it equalized the situation while Pain could barely make out human and Jman inside the cloud, let's agree to disagree.



Again read the chapter.

_"...not just once, but twice!"_ - Jman when trying to figure out how the Pains respond _even better than a trio of sensory-types would_. They could see well enough from where they were that there was never a blindside advantage.



> No, only that Asura is faster and stronger than SM Jman



Base Jiraiya had more time before he was struck by Gai than SM Jiraiya did before he was struck by Asura though...

Reactions: Like 1


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## jesusus (Jun 16, 2020)

Of course Kishi wouldnt have Gai beheading Jiraiya on accident with his base kick (which would totally happen without plot to save him) 

Leg strength > arm strength. Gai's arms can break boulders with nunchaku. His legs are at least 4 times stronger than that. 

WA Gai with his speed and strength would cause this:


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

jesusus said:


> *Leg strength > arm strength. Gai's arms can break boulders with nunchaku. His legs are at least 4 times stronger than that*.



Jiraiya can break boulders with his arms in Sage Mode too. He literally shattered the ground just by leaping on it. As for kicks, J-Man blinded Human Path with his kick (something we've never seen a person do before with Taijutsu) and created a small cave where Human Path was sent flying. And there's the fact his strength shouldn't be_ too_ far from Sage Naruto who can toss giant animals into the sky so high that equally large summons need to jump up high to kill them *multiple panels later*.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 16, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Of course Kishi wouldnt have Gai beheading Jiraiya on accident with his base kick (which would totally happen without plot to save him)
> 
> Leg strength > arm strength. Gai's arms can break boulders with nunchaku. His legs are at least 4 times stronger than that.
> 
> WA Gai with his speed and strength would cause this:





Should be the NBD banner

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Should be the NBD banner



Nah, the NBD banner should be Sage Jiraiya kicking Guy like he kicked Human Path. Only this time, Guy's head falls off.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 16, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nah, The Fanfic NBD banner should be Sage Jiraiya kicking Guy like he kicked Human Path. Only this time, Guy's head falls off.



Yes


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 16, 2020)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Yes, except it should be Base J-Man and not Sage Jiraiya that's blowing Guy into a million pieces with one finger



Jiraiya knocked Naruto away with one finger. Naruto >>>>>>>> Guy by the end of Part II. 

Therefore, Jiraiya >>>>>>>>>>> Eight Gated Guy even in base.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> He’s SLOWER than Jiraiya. When has kisame ever overwhelmed anybody with his speed



He overwhelmed Gai with his speed.

With Gais skill, speed and agility if he could dodge it, he wouldve.

That is him point blank being outsped, and then overpowered.



Serene Grace said:


> Whereas Jiraiya was overwhelming the hypersonic paths. SM Jiraiya>Kisame in speed



Using colorful words like hypersonic doesn't make you right. Genin move at hypersonic speeds by calcs.

He has NO CQC speed feats, NONE, and the times he did engage in CQC his speed feats were average or just poor


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> *He overwhelmed Gai with his speed*.



Yeah, this never happened. Kisame overwhelmed Guy with his *strength*. Not once was speed involved.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Gai is one of the only Shinobi in the NBD who can stand toe to toe with Rinnegan Obito in CQC and still be labeled a Jonin level by the Sannin camp


He went into a cqc match where he dies if he gets touched. Not even hit but touched. A physical combat where he can't get touched by someone who has sharingan precog. 
And he's still jonin level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> *He went into a cqc match where he dies if he gets touched*. Not even hit but touched. A physical combat where he can't get touched by someone who has sharingan precog.
> And he's still jonin level.



And in the event Guy got touched, Obito would leave himself open to an attack from Kakashi and KCM Naruto (which is what happened). I like Guy as much as the next guy (lol), he's one of my favorites actually. But come on now...


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I love how people are forgetting Guy's miserable attempts at defeating Kisame without the Eight Gates here.


Because Kisame is insanely durable. Much durable than Jiraiya.. And ten ten was legit dying inside the water prison for Gai to bust out some base dimension moves.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> *Because Kisame is insanely durable. Much durable than Jiraiya*.. And ten ten was legit dying inside the water prison for Gai to bust out some base dimension moves.



Not *Sage Mode* Jiraiya, no. Also, Tenten dying inside the water prison is irrelevant to the fact Guy needed SIX Gates to beat Kisame.

*SIX*. The first alone gives you 5x strength. And even then, Kisame survived a kick from Guy.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> And in the event Guy got touched, Obito would leave himself open to an attack from Kakashi and KCM Naruto (which is what happened). I like Guy as much as the next guy (lol), he's one of my favorites actually. But come on now...


Yet Obito tried to warp him and Gai made him fail... He outplayed him and his blindsided attack that followed. 
So your argument doesn't hold much weight.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> *Yet Obito tried to warp him and Gai made him fail... He outplayed him and his blindsided attack that followed*.
> So your argument doesn't hold much weight.



Yes, let's totally ignore the fact KCM Naruto was attacking Obito in tandem with Guy and Kakashi was there from a distance to check Obito if needs be. Of course. Guy didn't ''outplay'' anything, he just defended himself. He couldn't actually hurt the Uchiha.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not *Sage Mode* Jiraiya, no. Also, Tenten dying inside the water prison is irrelevant to the fact Guy needed SIX Gates to beat Kisame.


Based on what???
Kisame was strong enough to physically fight killer Bee... He is physically more resilient than Jman who got his throat crushed neg diff. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> The first alone gives you 5x strength. And even then, Kisame survived a kick from Guy.


That's a testament to Kisame's durability.... Which is more than Jman's.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Based on what???
> Kisame was strong enough to physically fight killer Bee... He is physically more resilient than Jman who got his throat crushed neg diff.
> 
> That's a testament to Kisame's durability.... Which is more than Jman's.



Man, you post pretty fast (almost like Lee himself might lol). Kisame never physically fought Killer Bee, they had a clash of swords and that was it. Samehada absorbed Bee's Gyuki-boosted attacks and the one that got through blew a hole open in Kisame.

Jiraiya got his throat crushed in base. He wasn't in Sage Mode then, and the person who crushed his throat was Asura Path who is _at least_ as strong as Kisame if not stronger. Sage Jiraiya would manhandle Kisame like he did Pain's bull summon.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yes, let's totally ignore the fact KCM Naruto was attacking Obito in tandem with Guy and Kakashi was there from a distance to check Obito if needs be. Of course. Guy didn't ''outplay'' anything, he just defended himself. He couldn't actually hurt the Uchiha.


Where exactly was Kakashi and Naruto when Obito tried to warp Gai and Gai kicked his nunchuks back?? He made Obito change an offensive situation to a defensive one in one move. That is the definition of out playing.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Where exactly was Kakashi and Naruto when Obito tried to warp Gai and Gai kicked his nunchuks back?? He made Obito change an offensive situation to a defensive one in one move. That is the definition of out playing.



*Um, right...there*? Look at what happens after Guy exchanges hits with Obito.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Jiraiya got his throat crushed in base. He wasn't in Sage Mode then, and the person who crushed his throat was Asura Path who is _at least_ as strong as Kisame if not stronger. Sage Jiraiya would manhandle Kisame like he did Pain's bull summon


Sword clashes have strength behind them.. They weren't fencing like gentlemen. 
Don't compare Asura to Kisame... We have nothing to do that. Just speculation. 
Kisame tanked a gated Gai kick... Hell sure tank a bull tossing punch from Jman. Gai in gate 6 toppled the gedo with a kick... So even going by that Kisame is more durable cause he tanked a much stronger strike.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> *Um, right...there*? Look at what happens after Guy exchanges hits with Obito.


This is not the instance I talk about...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> *Sword clashes have strength behind them*.. They weren't fencing like gentlemen.
> Don't compare Asura to Kisame... We have nothing to do that. Just speculation.
> Kisame tanked a gated Gai kick... Hell sure tank a bull tossing punch from Jman. Gai in gate 6 toppled the gedo with a kick... So even going by that Kisame is more durable cause he tanked a much stronger strike.



Sasuke had absolutely no difficulty blocking Bee's swords...and he's not particularly strong. Neither did Edo Itachi. Asura Path destroyed a small island with a punch, threw Animal Path into the middle of a village, and did other shit I don't even remember.

Kisame didn't tank shit. Coughing up blood from a Gated Guy kick isn't ''tanking'', it's taking serious damage - although the fact it took Guy Six Gates just to* hurt *Kisame doesn't bode well for him in *Base *against *Sage* Jiraiya. Also, that bull would kill Kisame.



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> This is not the instance I talk about...



Then what ARE you talking about? The Guy vs Obito clash happens at 2:49 - right after an attack from KCM Naruto on Obito. A few seconds later, it is followed by Kakashi and KCM Naruto attacking Obito again.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame didn't tank shit. Coughing up blood from a Gated Guy kick isn't ''tanking'', it's taking serious damage - although the fact it took Guy Six Gates just to* hurt *Kisame doesn't bode well for him in *Base *against *Sage* Jiraiya. Also, that bull would kill Kisame.


Bruh.. You yourself said he took it and didn't go down... That is tanking... Now you mad at me?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Then what ARE you talking about? The Guy vs Obito clash happens at 2:49 - right after an attack from KCM Naruto on Obito. A few seconds later, it is followed by Kakashi and KCM Naruto attacking Obito again.


That video is blocked here.. I'm talking about the Instance where Gai attacks Obito, Obito tries to warp him.. Gai kicks his nunchuk back and forces him to go defensive and then blocks a blind side gunbai strike from him.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Bruh.. You yourself said he took it and didn't go down... That is tanking... Now you mad at me?
> 
> That video is blocked here.. I'm talking about the Instance where Gai attacks Obito, Obito tries to warp him.. Gai kicks his nunchuk back and forces him to go defensive and then blocks a blind side gunbai strike from him.



To tank an attack is to survive it with little to no damage. The Third Raikage tanked Naruto's Rasenshuriken. Kisame didn't tank shit.

If that video is blocked here, use this link. I know what you're talking about, I'm just saying KCM Naruto and Kakashi were involved both before and after that moment.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> To tank an attack is to survive it with little to no damage. The Third Raikage tanked Naruto's Rasenshuriken. Kisame didn't tank shit.


Bruh... You said Kisame taking and surviving Gai's kick is an anti feat for Gai.... So I showed how Gai toppled the gedou with a six gate kick, proving how effective gate 6 strike is. .. So that means Kisame taking it is actually a feat for him and his durability ....
But now u mad.
But they weren't in the moment. Gai had to make that choice in a split second... And he had no help and Obito had no duress from either Kakashi or Naruto. Gai was in his mercy and yet he put skilled him and forced him to defend. He then blocked a blindside and still he got no help. He did all of that on his own while Obito had his undivided attention.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> *Bruh... You said Kisame taking and surviving Gai's kick is an anti feat for Gai*.... *So I showed how Gai toppled the gedou with a six gate kick*, proving how effective gate 6 strike is. .. So that means Kisame taking it is actually a feat for him and his durability ....
> But now u mad.
> But they weren't in the moment. Gai had to make that choice in a split second... And he had no help and Obito had no duress from either Kakashi or Naruto. Gai was in his mercy and yet he put skilled him and forced him to defend. He then blocked a blindside and still he got no help. He did all of that on his own while Obito had his undivided attention.



Dude, I never said it was an anti-feat lmao. It's irrelevant anyway as Sage Jiraiya > Kisame too. Also, Guy didn't topple the Demonic Statue on his own - he, Kakashi, KCM Naruto, and Bee did it _as a team_. It is explicitly shown in your picture. Obito was absolutely under duress from Kakashi and Naruto, both were attacking him *before and after* Guy engaged. He had to measure every step he took - even against the Green Beast - while remembering Kakashi had his weakness.

I'm honestly getting confused. Why are people giving Guy full credit for shit he did with others?


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, this never happened. Kisame overwhelmed Guy with his *strength*. Not once was speed involved.



Listen genius, read my post.

The only reason he was in a position to overwhelm Gai with his strength is because he got him with his speed.



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Bruh... You said Kisame taking and surviving Gai's kick is an anti feat for Gai.... So I showed how Gai toppled the gedou with a six gate kick, proving how effective gate 6 strike is. .. So that means Kisame taking it is actually a feat for him and his durability ....
> But now u mad.
> But they weren't in the moment. Gai had to make that choice in a split second... And he had no help and Obito had no duress from either Kakashi or Naruto. Gai was in his mercy and yet he put skilled him and forced him to defend. He then blocked a blindside and still he got no help. He did all of that on his own while Obito had his undivided attention.



KISUHMAY IZ FODDUR SHUDDUP IDEEIT SANNIN #1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> as Sage Jiraiya > Kisame to


We have no means to come to that conclusion. 
Not A and B comparisons as much as i hate them. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Obito was absolutely under duress from Kakashi and Naruto, both were attacking him *before and after* Guy engaged.


Before and after... Not at the moment.
At that moment Gai was on his own. And he okay with the situation he had in his hand.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

Imagine arguing a world renowned Kenjutsu expert and someone with boatloads of feats against speedsters is SLOWER than SM Jiraiya who's best feat is getting blitzed by Asura path LOL


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> We have no means to come to that conclusion.
> Not A and B comparisons as much as i hate them.
> 
> Before and after... Not at the moment.
> At that moment Gai was on his own. And he okay with the situation he had in his hand.



ABC works to a point.

If Kisame tanks an attack FAR stronger than anything Jiraiya has tanked, Jiraiya who has succumbed to FAR weaker attacks, then he is far more durable than Jiraiya

Seems like common sense

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## Serene Grace (Jun 17, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Using colorful words like hypersonic doesn't make you right. Genin move at hypersonic speeds by calcs.


They evaded FRS, genin can’t physically evade something that travels mountain range almost instantly, stop trolling.


Troyse22 said:


> With Gais skill, speed and agility if he could dodge it, he wouldve.


Or or. We could use common sense and come to the conclusion that Guy meet with Kisame’s physical strength and couldn’t contend. I’ve already explained and gave examples of slower people landing hits or evade people that are far faster opponents. 


Troyse22 said:


> He has NO CQC speed feats, NONE, and the times he did engage in CQC his speed feats were average or just poor


Re-read the pein fight. Thanks. Animal path couldn’t even make a single seal at close range against Jiraiya.



Troyse22 said:


> He overwhelmed Gai with his speed.


No he didn’t lol, he overwhelmed him with his strength. In there cqc we literally see Kisame overpowering Guy with his strength as he pushes him into the water that he made

Are you purposely being dense? Or is this because it’s kisame related?

kisame has never overwhelmed shit with his speed, not base bee, not Asuma, not even a midget toad.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

I guess Kisame just walked up to Gai and was like "Hey, stupid, I'm going to overwhelm you with my strength now, don't try to dodge me because I'm too slow to land a hit, ready? 1..2...3!"


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## Serene Grace (Jun 17, 2020)

So basically you’re just trolling and meming after your regurgitated arguments got thrown in the trash

seems like a flawless victory. 

As for me I’m not gonna entertain you if you’re just gonna troll


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> So basically you’re just trolling and meming after your regurgitated arguments got thrown in the trash
> 
> seems like a flawless victory.
> 
> As for me I’m not gonna entertain you if you’re just gonna troll



I'm not trolling, you're just refusing to acknowledge that Kisame put Gai in the position to overwhelm him with strength by first overwhelming him with speed.

Now if you need me to repeat myself for the 100th time you can fuck off from where ever you fucked on from


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> concession accepted





Troyse22 said:


> you can fuck off from where ever you fucked on from



Concession accepted Sannin camp member, can't even address how Kisame put himself in a position to overwhelm Gai with strength


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## Serene Grace (Jun 17, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted Sannin camp member, can't even address how Kisame put himself in a position to overwhelm Gai with strength





Serene Grace said:


> concession accepted


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Listen genius, read my post.
> 
> *The only reason he was in a position to overwhelm Gai with his strength is because he got him with his speed*.



You just made this up, bro. The most you could say is that Kisame was able to overwhelm Guy because Kisame was close enough in CQC proficiency to do so. Kisame has a 3.5 in speed, bro. He's no speedster. He does, however, have a 4.5 in Taijutsu.



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> We have no means to come to that conclusion.
> Not A and B comparisons as much as i hate them.
> 
> Before and after... Not at the moment.
> At that moment Gai was on his own. And he okay with the situation he had in his hand.



What conclusion?

So you admit Obito only dealt with Base Guy for a very brief amount of time? And even in that time, Obito had to _mentally account_ for the possibility Naruto and Kakashi might attack? At least we're getting somewhere.


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## t0xeus (Jun 17, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Sorry but not everyone is wrong like you


We think you're wrong.


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## Draco Bolton (Jun 17, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Of course Kishi wouldnt have Gai beheading Jiraiya on accident with his base kick (which would totally happen without plot to save him)
> 
> Leg strength > arm strength. Gai's arms can break boulders with nunchaku. His legs are at least 4 times stronger than that.
> 
> WA Gai with his speed and strength would cause this:


The pic that the Sanninbros, @Shazam and the sisters don't want us to see

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bringer (Jun 17, 2020)

What is this fuckery going on in this thread 

Wanking Gai outdoing Obito in close quarters as if that's a feat for Gai and not an anti-feat for Obito. 

The same Gai most master fans say needs 6th gate just to stand up to Kakashi with kamui restricted(and lose anyway). The cognitive dissonance must hurt.

Is this how you guys read the manga? Hurr durr Base Gai outplayed Obito who outplayed KCM Naruto who outplayed V2 Ei therefore Base Gai has V2 Ei speed 


The headassery

Jiraiya cockslaps Gai down into Yomi Numa.


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## Onda Vital (Jun 17, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Bringer (Jun 17, 2020)

Fodder toad blocking a strike that volley ball spiked Gai through a lake like fodder


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## MarF (Jun 17, 2020)

Jiraiya wins.

Gai's skill advantage in Taijutsu is meaningless when there is such a big difference in raw power.

The same Kisame that overwhelmed Gai with physical strength, was blocked by a human sized toad.


Jiraiya was implied to have done this with a kick


Blitzed and crippled one of the Pain Paths with a direct kick and nearly blitzed Animal Path in cqc later on, stopping it in the middle of summoning.


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## LostSelf (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> In other words, he...tanked it? A nosebleed isn't really that bad in a fight and Jiraiya wasn't exactly prepared to take a hit in the first place. Being sent flying isn't proof of damage. Chouji knocked Kakuzu down but couldn't injure him either.



Tanking is not getting hit, falling to the floor, have a bleeding nose and having to put a strap on it. Tanking is how Killer Bee tanked Sasuke's kick, for instance. Jiraiya tanked nothing, comedy relief or not.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who told you Naruto's leg is less durable than his fist? Naruto *lost control of his speed* is the issue here.



Naruto landed a punch at the same speed he was going when he landed on the wall. Why then his feet is broken and not his fist? 

It is because in Shonen often hitting something doesn't take durability into account. And that's assuming we're going there, because my whole point of the gates is endurance, which is Gai being able to fight with the pain coming from it. And being able to use the gates even after having used the 7th gate in the war.

And Jiraiya has shown nothing that'd match this, not when a weaker human path can casually block his Sage Mode punch with one hand and without even flinching once. 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kakashi, Naruto, and Bee helped _multiple times_ against Obito. The two attacked alongside Guy.



Tell me where are Naruto, Kakashi and Bee in this skirmish?


*Spoiler*: __ 











Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame was intact after Daytime Tiger *because Guy didn't want to kill him*. This was explicit.



Still is something beyond what Jiraiya has ever been hit with.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 17, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> Tanking is not getting hit, falling to the floor, have a bleeding nose and having to put a strap on it. Tanking is how Killer Bee tanked Sasuke's kick, for instance. Jiraiya tanked nothing, comedy relief or not.



No that's "no selling".

Tanking is taking hits with little to no injury.

Which Jman did.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 17, 2020)

SM Jiraiya obviously wins with ease due to the variety of advantages he has. People in here talking about Guy's superior skill as if it even matters, we saw shapeshifting Kisame completely overpower and smash base Guy into the ground due to his superior strength alone. So when the difference in physical stats is too vast the skill doesn't matter. SM Jiraiya not only has superior strength, but durability and speed as well. He doesn't even need the retconned SM sensing and Frog Kata that he got later on, what he displayed against the Pains is enough for him to win already.


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## LostSelf (Jun 17, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> No that's "no selling".
> 
> Tanking is taking hits with little to no injury.
> 
> Which Jman did.



There is a panel between Gai figuring out he kicked Jiraiya and Jiraiya being annoyed and with a strap on his nose that measures some time passed between that and Gai apologizing.

I am not sure


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## LostSelf (Jun 17, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> SM Jiraiya obviously wins with ease due to the variety of advantages he has. People in here talking about Guy's superior skill as if it even matters, we saw shapeshifting Kisame completely overpower and smash base Guy into the ground due to his superior strength alone. So when the difference in physical stats is too vast the skill doesn't matter. SM Jiraiya not only has superior strength, but durability and speed as well. He doesn't even need the retconned SM sensing and Frog Kata that he got later on, what he displayed against the Pains is enough for him to win already.



How do you know he is physically stronger than Gai, or to the point of overpowering Gai enough to make his big difference in skill null when he showed to have far less physical strength than Kisame? 

What Jiraiya displayed against Pain was ninjutsu and trickery, not overpowering Taijutsu and huge durability. His best physical showing here is kicking Human Path in the eyes, but with the shoes he carried... it was to be expected.


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## Mithos (Jun 17, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Could be because we realize Kisame would have mopped the floor with Jiraiya in CQC based on his feats.



Kisame had his sword swing countered at close range by Jiraiya summoning Gama, who, unlike Gai, was not overpowered. Further, Jiraiya and Kisame were no more than 5 meters away (classified as close range) in the hotel when Jiraiya sent Kisame fleeing for his life with his _Toad Mouth Trap_. Add in _Rasengan_, _Shadow Clones_, and techniques like _Wild Lion's Mane_, and Jiraiya still defeats Kisame up close. (Base) Jiraiya only loses to Kisame in CQC if he's restricted from using Ninjutsu. Kisame isn't a real threat to Jiraiya, and that includes even if Kisame gets close, which is why Kisame almost died to Jiraiya in a confined space conducive to close combat right after admitting Jiraiya was out of his league. Sage Jiraiya defeats Kisame up close using hand-to-hand combat only.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 17, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Fodder toad blocking a strike that volley ball spiked Gai through a lake like fodder



It's almost like retcons exist


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## dergeist (Jun 17, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Gai decks this fodder who got barebacked by Asura.





Somebody restrict those nun chucks, they colud give base Yomi Noma a run for it's money

@Draco Bolton @Animegoin


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> Tanking is not getting hit, falling to the floor, have a bleeding nose and having to put a strap on it. Tanking is how Killer Bee tanked Sasuke's kick, for instance. Jiraiya tanked nothing, comedy relief or not.




Falling to the floor has nothing to do with tanking, as the Third Raikage was knocked down by FRS too and no one would say he didn't tank it (likewise, Kakuzu tanking Chouji's attack). You can knock a metal chair down but that doesn't mean you actually did any damage to it. A bleeding nose is pretty minor damage coming from a kick you weren't ready to guard against.



LostSelf said:


> Naruto landed a punch at the same speed he was going when he landed on the wall. Why then his feet is broken and not his fist?




What part of Naruto hurting himself by moving too fast for his own body to react to confuses you? Naruto's fist was aimed correctly, his feet however were not and ended up moving faster than he could handle. His feet weren't ''broken'', either - just sprained. People can hurt themselves with their own movements, but they can also tank their own movements. What people CANNOT do is output force that would literally tear their bodies to shreds. That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. 



LostSelf said:


> It is because in Shonen often hitting something doesn't take durability into account. And that's assuming we're going there, because my whole point of the gates is endurance, which is Gai being able to fight with the pain coming from it. And being able to use the gates even after having used the 7th gate in the war.



You just made this up. Hitting something absolutely takes durability into account, save maybe a few PIS instances.

Also, Guy was healed between each time he used Gates...your point?




LostSelf said:


> And Jiraiya has shown nothing that'd match this, not when a weaker human path can casually block his Sage Mode punch with one hand and without even flinching once.




Who told you Human Path is weaker? 

Sage Jiraiya blinded Human Path with a kick, sent him flying and bouncing off the earth like a ragdoll with enough force to crack the ground two to three times, and then smashing into a rock with enough force to create a small cave. 



LostSelf said:


> Tell me where are Naruto, Kakashi and Bee in this skirmish?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



It's kind of dishonest to focus on like a few pages of a CHAPTER where KCM Naruto and Kakashi are explicitly shown pressuring and attacking Obito, alongside Guy and on their own in separate instances. I'd expect better from a moderator.



LostSelf said:


> Still is something beyond what Jiraiya has ever been hit with.



Jiraiya tanked a giant summon's hit and came out of it unscathed in Sage Mode, so no.


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## t0xeus (Jun 18, 2020)

Matto said:


> Kisame had his sword swing countered at close range by Jiraiya summoning Gama, who, unlike Gai, was not overpowered. Further, Jiraiya and Kisame were no more than 5 meters away (classified as close range) in the hotel when Jiraiya sent Kisame fleeing for his life with his _Toad Mouth Trap_. Add in _Rasengan_, _Shadow Clones_, and techniques like _Wild Lion's Mane_, and Jiraiya still defeats Kisame up close. (Base) Jiraiya only loses to Kisame in CQC if he's restricted from using Ninjutsu. Kisame isn't a real threat to Jiraiya, and that includes even if Kisame gets close, which is why Kisame almost died to Jiraiya in a confined space conducive to close combat right after admitting Jiraiya was out of his league. Sage Jiraiya defeats Kisame up close using hand-to-hand combat only.


All this tells us is that Gama > Jiraiya. 

Me saying Jiraiya loses to Kisame in CQC also kinda implies not using ninjutsu but that kinda went over your head I guess.

I am comparing Base Gai to Jiraiya in the same situation, ie not using his mid/long range arsenal that has nothing to do with CQC skill.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Falling to the floor has nothing to do with tanking, as the Third Raikage was knocked down by FRS too and no one would say he didn't tank it (likewise, Kakuzu tanking Chouji's attack). You can knock a metal chair down but that doesn't mean you actually did any damage to it. A bleeding nose is pretty minor damage coming from a kick you weren't ready to guard against.



He had a bleeding nose and the scene after the kick was off panel, unless you tell me he landed standing. He obviously didn't tank it.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> What part of Naruto hurting himself by moving too fast for his own body to react to confuses you? Naruto's fist was aimed correctly, his feet however were not and ended up moving faster than he could handle. His feet weren't ''broken'', either - just sprained. People can hurt themselves with their own movements, but they can also tank their own movements. What people CANNOT do is output force that would literally tear their bodies to shreds. That's kind of the point I'm trying to make.



Again, Naruto hit something at the same speed his feet landed. You could say his feet landed incorrectly and his ankle was twisted, but that's not proven at all in this case.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You just made this up. Hitting something absolutely takes durability into account, save maybe a few PIS instances.
> 
> Also, Guy was healed between each time he used Gates...your point?



No, he wasn't. He used 7th gate against Madara, used Hirudora and went straight to the 8th gate with no healing at al.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who told you Human Path is weaker?
> 
> Sage Jiraiya blinded Human Path with a kick, sent him flying and bouncing off the earth like a ragdoll with enough force to crack the ground two to three times, and then smashing into a rock with enough force to create a small cave.



Human Path having more strength than Gai? Let's assume Jiraiya's strength is as strong as Naruto who can toss boss summons to the air. Why use Asura, then?

The strong path is Asura here. Jiraiya has not displayed strength enough to put him on par with Kisame, therefore the strength argument is moot.

And you're comparing a direct hit with a blocking hit. And he didn't make a small cave.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's kind of dishonest to focus on like a few pages of a CHAPTER where KCM Naruto and Kakashi are explicitly shown pressuring and attacking Obito, alongside Guy and on their own in separate instances. I'd expect better from a moderator.





For real? I give you several panels where Gai is fighting Obito alone, with no help, counter his Kamui attempts and I am dishonest. The manga panels are dishonest.

Ad hominems are not saving your arguments who are being severely lacking here. Show me where Naruto, Bee or Kakashi aided Gai in that skirmish against Obito. 

Save the ad hominems, because the only way they are going to help you here is telling me to not waste my time with you if you're resulting to silly attacks when you cannot back up your claims or are cornered against a wall.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Jiraiya tanked a giant summon's hit and came out of it unscathed in Sage Mode, so no.



Oh, boss summons have more potency than Hirudora? 

----------------------------
General post not directed to you:

It seems the base of all arguments favoring Jiraiya here is: Kisame reacted and pinned Gai. Which is a flawed one considering

1) Kisame is not Jiraiya. Pretty clear when Jiraiya's punch could not even make Human Path flinch when blocked with one hand while Gai was on his knees by blocking Kisame's with two hands.

2) Kisame is a swordsman, adept at close combat, something Jiraiya hasn't dedicated his life to. His own feats of dismantling two Taijutsu experts like Rock Lee and Neji with a single ninjutsu and fighting Gai is far more than enough than what Jiraiya has achieved in Taijutsu.

3) Kisame was disarmed and technically lost had not Samehada rejected Gai.

Basically, using someone better than Jiraiya in Taijutsu and physically stronger than Jiraiya as a way to say why Gai won't win. When all Jiraiya clearly has here over Gai is durability. Which won't make the cut by the sheer difference of skill and will just serve for him to suffer longer or give him an ample time to surrender.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 18, 2020)

Jiraiya destroys him. Gai is more skilled in taijutsu but that matters for nothing when Jiraiya is noticeably better than him in all physical stats. Gai doesn't have knowledge on SM Jiraiya's strength for starters, which means he is liable to attempt parrying or blocking one of his blows like he did to Kisame which doesn't result in a good ending for him.


LostSelf said:


> General post not directed to you:
> 
> It seems the base of all arguments favoring Jiraiya here is: Kisame reacted and pinned Gai. Which is a flawed one considering
> 
> ...



Who has *Base* Gai fought in taijutsu that has all the physicals of SM Jiraiya? Skill counts very little when up against a opponent with unprecedented stats advantage, and when he has no prior knowledge of SM Jiraiya's stats. He can read Jiraiya's punches and kicks but does he have enough speed to reliably stop them all ?  Reacting to and Dodging 4 attacks means nothing if the 5th one hits you and sends you on your way to your loss.  Jiraiya isn't skilled enough to read the timing of Gai's taijutsu moves but he has a reflex boost to react to most of Gai's attacks as they come, he doesn't need to read them in advance-, and the ones he doesn't manage to dodge are irrelevant thanks to durability and endurance lol.  That's the benefit of the stats difference. And its not like Jiraiya is completely unskilled,  regardless of whether he has ghost punches or not he still learned frog kata from Pa.

SM Jiraiya kicked Human Path into the ground several meters without the latter being able to react despite 3  pairs of eyes of shared vision. Jiraiya jumped for that kick so it would be faster than his normal standing punch. His jumping kick also stopped Human Path from completing the activation  of his summoning jutsu.
And to address individual points 

1) We don't have any other feats for Human Path to scale his arm's physical strength, do we? Stopping SM Jiraiya's punch isn't an antifeat unless you can show Human path failing to parry the punch of another character who is shown to be as strong as or weaker than Base Gai. 

Simply jumping a short distance on the ground destroys it noticeably.



2) Stats can make up for a gap in taijutsu skill

3) Two characters of a comparable level will obviously be able to win some clashes and lose others. It isn't always an all or nothing thing. 50/50s exist. If he could do that consistently, then why was he leaning over for his life against Kisame's physical strength before taking internal damage from Kisame's punch?


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## Illusory (Jun 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Base Gai was given a freebie Dynamic entry meant for Kisame and Itachi on Base Jiraiya and got tanked.



Jiraiya literally handled Gai's dynamic entry worse than Haku did lol.


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## jesusus (Jun 18, 2020)

Retrieval arc Naruto > Part 1 Kabuto > Wave Arc Naruto > Haku > Jiraiya = Tsunade

Sannin really are _Wile E. Coyote_ level gag characters, despite what the exalted _Board of Directors _might say.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 18, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Jiraiya literally handled Gai's dynamic entry worse than Haku did lol.



Not a blindside.

Not dynamic entry.

Haku was kicked 25+ feet away.

So no.


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## Illusory (Jun 18, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Not a blindside.
> 
> Not dynamic entry.
> 
> ...



Haku was mid-attack toward another ninja before being blindsided.

Haku blocked.

Haku handled WA Gai, not p1 Gai.

Haku handled WA Lee on top of that.

Haku landed a bit away without an issue.

Jiraiya landed on his backside with a bloody nose from p1 Gai.

So yes.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 18, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Haku was mid-attack toward another ninja before being blindsided.



From the front?





> Haku blocked.



Of course he did. It wasn't a blindside.



> Haku handled WA Gai, not p1 Gai.
> 
> Haku handled WA Lee on top of that.



With his immortal edo body.





> Haku landed a bit away without an issue.





25+ feet away = "a little bit"





> Jiraiya landed on his backside with a bloody nose from p1 Gai.



Did Jiraiya even get knocked down?



> So yes.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 18, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Haku was mid-attack toward another ninja before being blindsided.
> 
> Haku blocked.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya wasn't expecting his ally to attack him though.... Why would you compare this situation to one where Gai fought an enemy who was automatically set to react to his attacks? Jiraiya wasn't just blindsided, he was also mentally off-centered.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 19, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> He had a bleeding nose and the scene after the kick was off panel, *unless you tell me he landed standing*. He obviously didn't tank it.



Okay, I admitted he had a bleeding nose. That's such light damage he as good as tanked it though. Also, what does ''landing standing'' have to do with anything? Being knocked down has _nothing _to do with actually taking damage. Or do you think the Third Raikage didn't tank FRS or Kakuzu didn't tank Chouji's Spiked Ball Tank? Both of those guys sure were knocked down lmao.



LostSelf said:


> Again, Naruto hit something at the same speed his feet landed. *You could say his feet landed incorrectly and his ankle was twisted, but that's not proven at all in this case*.



It's also not disproven. Also, all this proves is that KCM Naruto can hurt himself. Never really contested that. Most people can hurt themselves with their blows. The point is that for someone like Guy to withstand the force of his own kick smashing through a *Sage Mode-enhanced Tailed Beast Bomb tanking chakra shell*, he would need a durability upgrade with the strength upgrade. If this wasn't the case, his kick wouldn't just hurt himself like KCM Naruto did - it would straight up_ obliterate _his body.

Unless, of course, you think Base Guy's body is comparable to a mountain in durability.

And if you do, welcome to my wall of shame.



LostSelf said:


> Human Path having more strength than Gai? Let's assume Jiraiya's strength is as strong as Naruto who can toss boss summons to the air. Why use Asura, then?



Because Asura is...stronger?



LostSelf said:


> The strong path is Asura here. Kisame has not displayed strength enough to put him on par with Jiraiya, therefore the strength argument is moot.



Fixed for you.



LostSelf said:


> And you're comparing a direct hit with a blocking hit. And he didn't make a small cave.



What blocking hit? Yes, SM Jiraiya made a small cave. Look it up.



LostSelf said:


> For real? I give you several panels where Gai is fighting Obito alone, with no help, counter his Kamui attempts and I am dishonest. The manga panels are dishonest.



Never said the manga panels are dishonest. You, however, are quoting them out of context.

Ah, yes, cite a very brief part of the fight where Guy was fighting alone...and ignore the fact in that VERY SAME CHAPTER, Naruto and Kakashi help out both before and after those few (not several) panels. Also ignore the fact that Kakashi and KCM Naruto's presence would obviously put pressure on Obito as Obito KNOWS Kakashi has access to his space-time dimension to hurt him.



LostSelf said:


> Ad hominems are not saving your arguments who are being severely lacking here. Show me where Naruto, Bee or Kakashi aided Gai in that skirmish against Obito.



What about the part where Naruto went after Obito with a Rasengan? It's all in the same chapter. 



LostSelf said:


> Save the ad hominems, because the only way they are going to help you here is telling me to not waste my time with you* if you're resulting to silly attacks when you cannot back up your claims or are cornered against a wall*.



Projection much?



LostSelf said:


> Oh, boss summons have more potency than Hirudora?



Guy wasn't even _trying_ to kill Kisame, something that was and should've been pretty fucking obvious.

When Guy _was_ trying to kill Kisame, *a single Sixth Gated kick *drew blood from Kisame. 



LostSelf said:


> Kisame is not Jiraiya. *Pretty clear when Jiraiya's punch could not even make Human Path flinch when blocked with one hand while Gai was on his knees by blocking Kisame's with two hands*.



Okay, except this says...*absolutely nothing *about how the two pairs compare to each other in strength.




LostSelf said:


> Kisame is a swordsman, adept at close combat, something Jiraiya hasn't dedicated his life to. His own feats of dismantling two Taijutsu experts like Rock Lee and Neji with a single ninjutsu and fighting Gai is far more than enough than what Jiraiya has achieved in Taijutsu.



Irrelevant, considering that J-Man and Kisame BOTH have a 4.5 in Taijutsu and Jiraiya has Sage Mode to boost his CQC skills. Also, lmao at bringing up NINJUTSU when we're talking about Taijutsu. Dude, what are you even doing here? Lol.



LostSelf said:


> Kisame was disarmed and technically lost had not Samehada rejected Gai.



You just made this up. There's no proof Kisame lost or needed Samehada at all. Kisame doesn't need Samehada to overpower Guy.



LostSelf said:


> *Basically, using someone better than Jiraiya in Taijutsu and physically stronger than Jiraiya as a way to say why Gai won't win*.



Except Kisame is neither of these things.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 19, 2020)

Wait

@LostSelf 

Are you asserting Kisame is physically weaker than Asura?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Wait
> 
> @LostSelf
> 
> *Are you asserting Kisame is physically weaker than Asura?*



I can't speak for them, but would they be wrong (if they meant that)?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Yes, yes it is.


Anything for my man Jman.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 19, 2020)

SM Jiraya is faster, far stronger and far more reflexive, so he stomps. Base Gai won't last more than one move and anyway his base Taijutsu skills are little jokes compared to the gated skills.


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## LostSelf (Jun 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Wait
> 
> @LostSelf
> 
> Are you asserting Kisame is physically weaker than Asura?



No, I never draw a comparison between them. The only physical strength comparison I drew was Kisame and SM Jiraiya, since "Kisame overpowering Gai so Jiraiya will also do it" is being used as evidence when Kisame has the better feats by far.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Who has *Base* Gai fought in taijutsu that has all the physicals of SM Jiraiya? Skill counts very little when up against a opponent with unprecedented stats advantage, and when he has no prior knowledge of SM Jiraiya's stats. He can read Jiraiya's punches and kicks but does he have enough speed to reliably stop them all ?



Kisame. Kisame has far more physical strength than Jiraiya and is a better close combat fighter than Jiraiya and Gai disarmed him and took a direct punch from him.

Why Gai needs to stop them all? Gai is not a Pouch Ingball, Gai can dodge and counter attack with superior skill. And why can't Gai stop them like Human Path effortessly did?

What physical stats Jiraiya has shown to the point that Gai won't be able to compete? Unless you are scaling Jiraiya to Sage Mode Naruto, who showed far better strength feats (and still could not one shot paths even with direct hits), what?

Because, again, Pain's paths were both reading his attacks, blocking his attacks and taking his attacks.

So we have: 


A Gai who could parry against an Obito who was schooling KCM Naruto in Taijutsu with two moves.
A Gai that can block Jiraiya's hits with ease just like Human Path did.
A Gai that took a direct hit from someone with far more physical strength than Jiraiya.
A Gai whose body can still use the death gate after using the bone crushing effects of the 7th gate.

And somehow Gai is destroyed.

Imo, I feel people are overinflating Jiraiya's physical stats. If you see the Pain fight, is nothing especial. His Ninjutsu and combo with Ma and Pa are the deadly things here.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Jun 19, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> No, I never draw a comparison between them. The only physical strength comparison I drew was Kisame and SM Jiraiya, since "Kisame overpowering Gai so Jiraiya will also do it" is being used as evidence when Kisame has the better feats by far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah Jiraiya was an imperfect sage and as a result does not share the same boosts.

His physicals are still enhanced, just not to the point Narutos are

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 19, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> No, I never draw a comparison between them. The only physical strength comparison I drew was Kisame and SM Jiraiya, since "Kisame overpowering Gai so Jiraiya will also do it" is being used as evidence when Kisame has the better feats by far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And yeah I don't think it can really be disputed that Kisame is physically stronger than SM Jiraiya, at least not in any respectable capacity.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> It's almost like retcons exist


Or the fact that so called fodder toads have senjutsu amping their strength.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Kamalu said:


> Or the fact that so called fodder toads have senjutsu amping their strength.



Kisame by feats is physically stronger than every sage in the manga minus gods and Hashirama, that scene is a one off whereas his other strength feats are consistent


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame by feats is physically stronger than every sage in the manga minus gods and Hashirama, that scene is a one off whereas his other strength feats are consistent


That's interesting, I'd like to see these feats if you don't mind. That's major shit.

Pound for pound Fukasaku has the best lifting feat of any sage(they still scale anyway). Dude lifted almost 1,000,000 times his body weight with one arm when he carried the statue.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Kamalu said:


> That's interesting, I'd like to see these feats if you don't mind. That's major shit.
> 
> Pound for pound Fukasaku has the best lifting feat of any sage(they still scale anyway). Dude lifted almost 1,000,000 times his body weight with one arm when he carried the statue.



On 30% strength he overpowered might Gai who was=Rinne Obito who's literally 50% Hashi cells.

That strength feat alone is enough...but...

He has other strength feats like wrestling with V2 Bee, who's far far stronger than Base Bee who sent V2 Ay flying into rocks with his Lariat.

He also broke Chakra suppressing Mokuton after he had just been blasted by Hirudora and got mind fucked by mind control. This Mokuton restrained KN4 Naruto without any trouble.

Kisame is pretty insane in the physical strength department, and idk anyone in the verse who could match his physicals that isn't Hashi or a god, maybe Nagato could do it tho given his Edo feats (shit diff restraining KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time)


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Kamalu said:


> That's interesting, I'd like to see these feats if you don't mind. That's major shit.
> 
> Pound for pound Fukasaku has the best lifting feat of any sage(they still scale anyway). Dude lifted almost 1,000,000 times his body weight with one arm when he carried the statue.



And btw I'm giving Hashirama massive benefit of the doubt here since he has no physical strength feats to speak of.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> On 30% strength he overpowered might Gai who was=Rinne Obito who's literally 50% Hashi cells.
> 
> That strength feat alone is enough...but...


Wait, what does having Hashirama's cells mean here. It's not like you're saying base Hashirama is stronger than a sage. Besides Kakashi was duking it out with that Obito anyway


Troyse22 said:


> And btw I'm giving Hashirama massive benefit of the doubt here since he has no physical strength feats to speak of.


Ah, that's good. 



Troyse22 said:


> He has other strength feats like wrestling with V2 Bee, who's far far stronger than Base Bee who sent V2 Ay flying into rocks with his Lariat.


When did this happen because I only saw V2 Bee obliterate Kisame's chest when they clashed. Maybe it's Fused Kisame you're talking about, but that's not who I'm talking about.



Troyse22 said:


> He also broke Chakra suppressing Mokuton after he had just been blasted by Hirudora and got mind fucked by mind control. This Mokuton restrained KN4 Naruto without any trouble.


That mokuton also had the help of Hashirama's necklace. Although I guess the hirudora and mind fuck do even things out(may have made Kisame 's condition worse than KN4's). But do you seriously think sages of Naruto's and Gamabunta's level can't replicate that feat? 



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame is pretty insane in the physical strength department, and idk anyone in the verse who could match his physicals that isn't Hashi or a god, maybe Nagato could do it tho given his Edo feats (shit diff restraining KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time)


I haven't seen any base Hashirama strength feat that suggests he can beat Kisame. I do know that the raikage's, bee, KCM Naruto and sages along with characters on their level equal him or overwhelm him.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Kamalu said:


> Wait, what does having Hashirama's cells mean here. It's not like you're saying base Hashirama is stronger than a sage. Besides Kakashi was duking it out with that Obito anyway
> Ah, that's good.



Yeah, but Obito was holding back against Kakashi, so the feats there don't apply.

And the Hashi cells thing is still relevant, they enhance the users stats, SM or not.



Kamalu said:


> When did this happen because I only saw V2 Bee obliterate Kisame's chest when they clashed. Maybe it's Fused Kisame you're talking about, but that's not who I'm talking about.



Unfused Kisame had his guard lowered, even the Gyuki notes that Lariat won't work because Kisame has raised his guard.

He wascaught off guard by the speed and power, once he knew he was fighting someone like that he stepped it up. 

Samehada also has no physical strength feats at all, saying it augments Kisames strength ten fold is pretty nonsense.



Kamalu said:


> That mokuton also had the help of Hashirama's necklace



We saw what KN6 thought of the Hashi necklace, again, saying it augmented Yamatos jutsu ten fold is baseless.



Kamalu said:


> Although I guess the hirudora and mind fuck do even things out(may have made Kisame 's condition worse than KN4's



MAY have?!

Naruto wasn't even injured as the Kyuubi Chakra protected him from the Kusanagi and the resulting slam into the cliff, he was uninjured, whereas Kisame was blasted directly by these attacks.

KN4 was perfectly fine, Kisame was heavily wounded and at best in his state he may have retreated with a Suiton shark which was implied when Gai punched him again.

Even after all that Kisame mustered up the strength to break Mokuton, use Ninjutsu and lay a trap for the Intel to get away.

Kisame was in horrendous shape and has feats exceeding KN4 lmao



Kamalu said:


> But do you seriously think sages of Naruto's and Gamabunta's level can't replicate that feat?



Yeah, definitely not.

Gama toads are not stronger than KN4.
Neither is SM Naruto.

They'd all get bootyclapped by Gai or Obito in strength alone



Kamalu said:


> I haven't seen any base Hashirama strength feat that suggests he can beat Kisame. I do know that the raikage's, bee, KCM Naruto and sages along with characters on their level equal him or overwhelm him.



It's just blatant fucking delusion, especially the Raikage one since we have almost a direct comparison

Kisame>>>>Base Bee in strength

Base Bee>Ay in strength

So saying Ay or people around that level of strength equal or overpower him is just blatantly untrue


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah, but Obito was holding back against Kakashi, so the feats there don't apply.


I doubt that. I really doubt that Obito has superhuman strength when he was shown phasing away from an attack by Kakashi right when he was about to capture Naruto when he could have just done as bee did with Sasuke and take it there.



> And the Hashi cells thing is still relevant, they enhance the users stats, SM or not.


That would mean Yamato(who is a Hashirama clone) should scale to Obito in strength, and he is equal to kakashi. What about the zetsu, are they also superhuman in strength? Why do we never see this strength?



Troyse22 said:


> Unfused Kisame had his guard lowered, even the Gyuki notes that Lariat won't work because Kisame has raised his guard.


Yet the lariat did work, Kisame's chest was blown off. Unless, lariat working entailed something more happening?



Troyse22 said:


> He wascaught off guard by the speed and power, once he knew he was fighting someone like that he stepped it up.


Did Bee clash with him in V2 again and the stepped up Kisame wrestled him then?



Troyse22 said:


> Samehada also has no physical strength feats at all, saying it augments Kisames strength ten fold is pretty nonsense.


I never said it augmented his strength ten fold. But the fact that the sword was what allowed him to come back from the brink of death, and it fusing with him made him bigger; then yes, he gained a strength boost from fusing with samehada.



Troyse22 said:


> We saw what KN6 thought of the Hashi necklace, again, saying it augmented Yamatos jutsu ten fold is baseless.


KN6 is>> KN4 and where are you getting tenfold from? Regardless of what you think, Yamato thought that the seal was essential in restraining the kyuubi's chakra.



Troyse22 said:


> MAY have?!


Sorry, it was just as bad as KN4's condition. Is that better?



Troyse22 said:


> Yeah, definitely not.
> 
> Gama toads are not stronger than KN4.
> Neither is SM Naruto.
> ...


Gamabunta could restrain full kurama with strength alone to buy enough time for minato. KN4 of half kurama isn't stronger than Full kurama dude. SM Naruto bitch tossing a fully aware kurama is also a greater feat than anything Gai, Obito and Kisame have ever done. 



Troyse22 said:


> It's just blatant fucking delusion, especially the Raikage one since we have almost a direct comparison


I would say Gai being physically stronger than a sage that can restrain full kurama based on a one time feat of Obito hurting KCM Naruto is a greater delusion.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame>>>>Base Bee in strength


That's not true. Kisame never faced a base bee that was at full strength. He absorbed all his  before they even hit each .



Troyse22 said:


> Base Bee>Ay in strength


Base bee only superceded Ay in strength way after his fights with Kisame, right around the chapter that had Naruto powerup to become faster than Ay. After all, Ay was still overpowering bee , and you can't back scale that way.

Even if you still want to back scale. Almost all of Bee's chakra was absorbed by Kisame before they even struck each other. So it's not like kisame was up against a full power bee.



Troyse22 said:


> So saying Ay or people around that level of strength equal or overpower him is just blatantly untrue


If Kisame has samehada, yeah it's untrue. Without it? Absolutely not, he's getting killed by them.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Kamalu said:


> I doubt that. I really doubt that Obito has superhuman strength



Lol

Literally blocked Suigetsus Kubikiri strike with his fucking WRIST.

Literally headbutted KCM Naruto and wasn't sent flying



Kamalu said:


> Kakashi right when he was about to capture Naruto when he could have just done as bee did with Sasuke and take it there.



Obito avoids attacks when possible regardless of how deadly or irrelevant they are.

He acts similar to Nagato/Pain in this way.



Kamalu said:


> That would mean Yamato(who is a Hashirama clone) should scale to Obito in strength



Yamato has tiny fragments of Hashi cells

Obito is literally 50% Hashi cells.

Regardless, Obito himself, being an Uchiha is already far stronger than the average Shinobi, augmenting his already presumably high strength with 50% Hashi cells? Oof 



Kamalu said:


> What about the zetsu, are they also superhuman in strength? Why do we never see this strength?



This, however, was retconned. Obito still possessed Hashi cells through the story and that wasn't retconned, however Zetsus were retconned to just be the old bodies of those under Infinite Tsukuyomi, they have no Hashi cells.

@ARGUS explains it better if he'd be so kind



Kamalu said:


> Yet the lariat did work, Kisame's chest was blown off. Unless, lariat working entailed something more happening?



First Lariat worked, Kisame had his guard lowered at this time

Second Lariat would not work according to Gyuki because Kisame had his guard raised.

It echos Kisames feats against dynamic entry. Kisame comes flying out of the waterfall of truth, Gai kicks him into a wall because Kisame did not expect him to be there.

Gai tries kicking Kisame again moments later, Kisame punches him away shit diff

So yes the first Lariat worked because of his guard being lowered, NOT because of a strength deficit.



Kamalu said:


> Did Bee clash with him in V2 again and the stepped up Kisame wrestled him then?



Yes, Kisame and Bee wrestled inside of Waterdome

Bee was at full speed charge, Kisame was at a standstill and Kisame halted his charge and they briefly wrestled.

That is not the showing of someone who's in a massive strength deficit, especially since it can be argued Kisame didn't show all of his physical strength since he couldn't kill Bee, merely enough to contend with him



Kamalu said:


> I never said it augmented his strength ten fold. But the fact that the sword was what allowed him to come back from the brink of death



It's regeneration abilities are irrelevant to its physical strength abilities (of which it has none)



Kamalu said:


> it fusing with him made him bigger;



Ofc it did, there's a literal sword inside of his body.

That does not translate to a strength enhancement.

There's also no mention of it augmenting his physical strength. We know from Kisame it gives him sensory ability, the ability to be faster underwater etc.

But no mention of physical strength.



Kamalu said:


> KN6 is>> KN4 and where are you getting tenfold from? Regardless of what you think, Yamato thought that the seal was essential in restraining the kyuubi's chakra.



I'm aware KN6>KN4 that doesn't matter since clearly the necklace is garbage relative to Kyuubis power.

It didnt do all or the majority of the work vs KN4, that's all I'm saying.



Kamalu said:


> Sorry, it was just as bad as KN4's condition. Is that better?



No, Kisame was in far far far worse shape than KN4, KN4 was entirely unhurt, Kisame was wounded, broken and just had his mind molested inside of Chakra suppressing Mokuton.

If you think those two situations are comparable then I'm throwing you on ignore.



Kamalu said:


> Gamabunta could restrain full kurama with strength alone



Uh no no no.

He dropped his big fat ass on an unsuspecting Kuramas back.

That's not a feat of strength, that's a feat of being fat as fuck



Kamalu said:


> SM Naruto bitch tossing a fully aware kurama is also a greater feat than anything Gai, Obito and Kisame have ever done.



Ah yes, because internal battles translate perfectly to the in verse battles 

Hey remember when SM Naruto could use SM MID AIR?

Me neither, but it happened inside of that battle



Kamalu said:


> That's not true. Kisame never faced a base bee that was at full strength. He absorbed all his  before they even hit each .



He attempted to headbutt him.

And Kisame stalemated it with a smile

The only Chakra Kisame evidently absorbed at the time was the cloak he just put on

He didn't absorb all of his base Chakra

In fact Bees lack of base Chakra is only noted upon before he goes into V2



Kamalu said:


> Base bee only superceded Ay in strength way after his fights with Kisame, right around the chapter that had Naruto powerup to become faster than Ay. After all, Ay was still overpowering bee , and you can't back scale that way.



You can backscale in these niche situations because Bee was very arguably holding back, so as not to anger Ay any further and put him beyond convincing, that's also his brother, so it makes sense that he wouldn't be going full force from the get go

Not only that, after their clash Bee states that Ay has always underestimated his power, the implication there being that Bee always had that power and Ay just didn't notice or acknowledge it.



Kamalu said:


> If Kisame has samehada, yeah it's untrue. Without it? Absolutely not, he's getting killed by them.



For this to be true you have to prove Samehada augments Kisames strength

He already has incredible feats of strength in base. Overpowering Gai while Kisame is on 30% is truly incredibly given his Obito feats. Again, that feat alone is a GG for your argume t


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

OH! Or are all of Kisames feats outlier like the Sannin camp claims? His only canon showing is the statement and actions from P1 vs Jiraiya which are hilariously outdated, anything after that is lies!!!!


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame>>>>Base Bee in strength



Yeah...no.


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## Jad (Jun 21, 2020)

I will post my thoughts later on this, but I think Gai has a good chance. Depends how thick skinned Jiraiya is though; I have to go back and look at his tanking feats. Don't remember Jiraiya doing anything too extraordinary in speed or skill wise. And Jiraiya's 'feat' of punching/kicking a Giant summon back is '_dubious_' at best, since no one know how it happened as it was under the shadow of the pipes, and later on both times he used Taijutsu his strength was never displayed to be that high.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah...no.



Do people actually think Kisame is beneath base Bee in strength?

Please confirm @Aegon Targaryen so I can put you on ignore if that's the case


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Literally blocked Suigetsus Kubikiri strike with his fucking WRIST.


Suigetsu's strength isn't superhuman for a jonin of his level. Kakashi could do the same thing he does. And durability isn't the same as physical strength.



Troyse22 said:


> Literally headbutted KCM Naruto and wasn't sent flying


Outlier. Or maybe you think Obito is pimpslapping Bijuudama's away with his hands huh?



Troyse22 said:


> Obito avoids attacks when possible regardless of how deadly or irrelevant they are.


Okay. But he still could have taken a kick from kakashi and managed to carry Naruto into Boxland without major discomfort.



Troyse22 said:


> Yamato has tiny fragments of Hashi cells
> 
> Obito is literally 50% Hashi cells.
> 
> Regardless, Obito himself, being an Uchiha is already far stronger than the average Shinobi, augmenting his already presumably high strength with 50% Hashi cells? Oof


So presumably high strength that we never see feats of is augmented by Hashirama's own super strength that we never see feats of and that's enough to assume that Obito can wrestle bijuu to the ground? Because we're going off of presumptions here?



Troyse22 said:


> This, however, was retconned. Obito still possessed Hashi cells through the story and that wasn't retconned, however Zetsus were retconned to just be the old bodies of those under Infinite Tsukuyomi, they have no Hashi cells.
> 
> @ARGUS explains it better if he'd be so kind


What a surprise. Kind of funny though that Obito with his super strength never displays any feat greater than anything a sage has done. Or even anything base A can do.



Troyse22 said:


> Second Lariat would not work according to Gyuki because Kisame had his guard raised.


No, the main reason it wouldn't work was because they were  also because Kisame was fused with samehada. Him being more on guard was just an additional reason not to use the lariat because Kisame would just absorb his chakra too fast. Not nice to leave out context. Although, you may have forgotten though.



Troyse22 said:


> Yes, Kisame and Bee wrestled inside of Waterdome
> 
> Bee was at full speed charge, Kisame was at a standstill and Kisame halted his charge and they briefly wrestled.
> 
> That is not the showing of someone who's in a massive strength deficit, *especially since it can be argued *Kisame didn't show all of his physical strength since he couldn't kill Bee, merely enough to contend with him


The bold cannot be argued  since Kisame instantly converted Bee from version 2 to 1 the moment they . Therefore, that means bee couldn't use *his* full physical strength and that he was unable to out muscle Kisame. 



Troyse22 said:


> It's regeneration abilities are irrelevant to its physical strength abilities (of which it has none)


You sure bro, a sentient sword that can move on it's own at high speed and has more chakra than Kisame can't have physical abilities? It resisted clone Kisame's strength to cut off bee's legs and threw clone Kisame away. 



Troyse22 said:


> There's also no mention of it augmenting his physical strength. We know from Kisame it gives him sensory ability, the ability to be faster underwater etc.


It gives him the ability to also absorb chakra. And from that we know Kisame never wrestled a full power bee. So he doesn't have any V2 bee level strength.



Troyse22 said:


> clearly the necklace is garbage relative to Kyuubis power.


Read the manga. The necklace is mentioned by yamato to be the reason the Kyuubi can be controlled. Not my problem if you want to ignore what is said in favour of Kisame.

And yes the necklace is garbage... To KN6. Not KN4.



Troyse22 said:


> It didnt do all or the majority of the work vs KN4, that's all I'm saying.


It did according to Yamato. Manga>>your saying.



Troyse22 said:


> If you think those two situations are comparable then I'm throwing you on ignore.


Sorry man. But the necklace is still the major reason yamato could restrain KN4.



Troyse22 said:


> He dropped his big fat ass on an unsuspecting Kuramas back.
> 
> That's not a feat of strength, that's a feat of being fat as fuck


The Kyuubi can destroy Mountain's with a tail swipe and you want me to believe that a Gamabunta who isn't up to 200 tons in weight is pinning him down. Lol Jesus Christ dude. 

But okay so if kurama the strongest Bijuu, can't throw off gamabunta for some time, and this gamabunta can still carry and withstand his own body weight easily; why should Kisame have any chance of performing better than any of them in a lifting contest?



Troyse22 said:


> Ah yes, because internal battles translate perfectly to the in verse battles
> 
> Hey remember when SM Naruto could use SM MID AIR?
> 
> Me neither, but it happened inside of that battle


That battle was a full fledged battle. There is no indication or statement that what happens inside is not real. And Gyuki even follows Naruto inside and protects him from a Bijuudama. This retort means nothing but a desperate attempt to invalidate Naruto's feats. 

The Databook even uses the panel of Naruto using the rasenshuriken in melee range to show that sage mode Naruto isn't susceptible to the previous weakness of the rasenshuriken.

And Naruto didn't have to enter SM in mid air in the battle, he wasn't moving outside, so he definitely didn't violate the rules of staying completely still for SM. And this isn't impossible based on tobirama's explanation for how minato could teleport the alliance despite not physically touching them.



Troyse22 said:


> He attempted to headbutt him.
> 
> And Kisame stalemated it with a smile
> 
> ...


Kisame's sword was noted to be able to absorb up to 6 tails of chakra at once. Bee when headbutting kisame only had 4 tails, the extra two tails worth of chakra would have to come from bee's own personal reserves. 

Besides bee had already confronted Kisame in base before he even went into his 4 tailed form, so his chakra was already at a low level.



Troyse22 said:


> You can backscale in these niche situations because Bee was very arguably holding back,


And A wasn't too? It's even easier to argue that Ay was holding back because he confirms he did so and because after their dad's death, Ay became super protective of Bee. 



> so as not to anger Ay any further and put him beyond convincing,


Bee faked his own death. Not overpowering his brothers lariat because he doesn't want to vex him beyond convincing is bullshit.



> that's also his brother, so it makes sense that he wouldn't be going full force from the get go


And A doesn't get this benefit too I presume? Even though he said it himself that he lowers his power for bee and that bee is precious to him and that he was so paranoid, he forbade bee from going out of the village, but A is just going all out?

My point is, you can't back scale here. Bee would also have no reason to not use his base lariat in front of A at any time before the war. What would A do if he found out bee was stronger than him? Commit suicide? 



Troyse22 said:


> Not only that, after their clash Bee states that Ay has always underestimated his power, the implication there being that Bee always had that power and Ay just didn't notice or acknowledge it.


Then why did Bee not prove him wrong the first time? Bee's words mean nothing when he himself never overpowered A until that moment.



Troyse22 said:


> For this to be true you have to prove Samehada augments Kisames strength


I don't have to. Samehada fusion instantly absorbs the chakra of those touching him. Weakening your opponent while getting stronger is better than plain old superstrength.



Troyse22 said:


> He already has incredible feats of strength in base. Overpowering Gai while Kisame is on 30% is truly incredibly given his Obito feats. Again, that feat alone is a GG for your argume t


Ah, Kisame is stronger than SM Naruto and Gamabunta because 30% Kisame overpowered base Gai, and base Gai is stronger than SM Naruto because he stepped up to Obito, and Obito is stronger than SM Naruto because He was durable enough to withstand Suigetsu wielding kubikiri on his wrist(forget that base bee did that too) and a head butt from KCM Naruto as well(ignore his entire fight with kakashi that contradicts this).

Obito is pimpslapping Bijuudama's with that feat, so is Gai(forget he said he was going to use 8th Gate against five of them) and so is kisame lol.


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## Marvel (Jun 21, 2020)

This is spite. SM Jirayia stomps.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Or are all of Kisames feats outlier like the Sannin camp claims?


No, they just have context which you're ignoring.


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## Marvel (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Do people actually think Kisame is beneath base Bee in strength?
> 
> Please confirm @Aegon Targaryen so I can put you on ignore if that's the case


I'd do that regardless.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> *Do people actually think Kisame is beneath base Bee in strength*?
> 
> Please confirm @Aegon Targaryen so I can put you on ignore if that's the case



Yeah, I'm pretty sure people do, actually. Base Bee overpowered Ay's strongest Lariat and Ay is stronger than Kisame has ever been shown to be. Busting Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage > anything Kisame has ever done. A hit like that would kill Base Guy.

Put me on ignore. See if I care. Congrats btw for making it to my wall of shame.



Marvel said:


> *I'd do that regardless*.



Then why don't you?


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Kamalu said:


> Suigetsu's strength isn't superhuman for a jonin of his level. Kakashi could do the same thing he does. And durability isn't the same as physical strength



It's a massive fucking sword, and blocking a sword that big is a feat of strength.

Did Kakashi do that? If so I concede that that wasn't an exceptional feat for Obito if that's the case.



Kamalu said:


> Outlier



Ohhhhh

So every feat is outlier now.

Fuck off, it's a valid feat, I'm gonna use it.



Kamalu said:


> Or maybe you think Obito is pimpslapping Bijuudama's away with his hands huh?



Uh no?

That's Juubi level shit.



Kamalu said:


> Okay. But he still could have taken a kick from kakashi and managed to carry Naruto into Boxland without major discomfort.



A Raiton kunai through the fucking head is going to hurt Obito big time, nobody is disputing that.

It may outright kill him

A chest shot wasn't a one shot, a brain shot would be.



Kamalu said:


> So presumably high strength that we never see feats of is augmented by Hashirama's own super strength that we never see feats of and that's enough to assume that Obito can wrestle bijuu to the ground? Because we're going off of presumptions here?



That's right

Obito has great feats of strength supporting the fact that he can do this.

Outmuscling KCM being a big one



Kamalu said:


> No, the main reason it wouldn't work was because they were  also because Kisame was fused with samehada. Him being more on guard was just an additional reason not to use the lariat because Kisame would just absorb his chakra too fast. Not nice to leave out context. Although, you may have forgotten though.



Why are u assuming that's the MAIN reason?

There's multiple reasons, and his guard being upped is one of them.



Kamalu said:


> The bold cannot be argued since Kisame instantly converted Bee from version 2 to 1 the moment they . Therefore, that means bee couldn't use *his* full physical strength and that he was unable to out muscle Kisame.



The cloak is only ripped after the impact.

What a boring and stupid argument this is, truly Sannin camp quality stuff.

Just address the goddamn fucking feats in front of you guys and stop dancing around shit with your stupid fucking mental gymnastics.

Holy fuck that's annoying.

The impact literally happens before the cloak is ripped off, Bee still strikes with V2 and the Hachibi skull, now fuck off.



Kamalu said:


> You sure bro, a sentient sword that can move on it's own at high speed and has more chakra than Kisame can't have physical abilities? It resisted clone Kisame's strength to cut off bee's legs and threw clone Kisame away.



This kid has no problem denying Obito who's literally a half senju half Uchiha superhuman hybrid man has high strength levels with feats to back it, yet he argues that a sword with NO physical strength feats or statements gives a big enough boost to Kisames physical strength from weaker than Base Bee to stronger than V2 Bee

Actual fucking neanderthal level mentality.



Kamalu said:


> It gives him the ability to also absorb chakra. And from that we know Kisame never wrestled a full power bee. So he doesn't have any V2 bee level strength.



You're just ignoring the clash when Bee is charging at full strength and Kisame halts him

Again, the impact happens before the Chakra is taken

Anyways I'm done debating with you, you're actually awful at it


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## Troyse22 (Jun 21, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty sure people do, actually. Base Bee overpowered Ay's strongest Lariat and Ay is stronger than Kisame has ever been shown to be. Busting Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage > anything Kisame has ever done. A hit like that would kill Base Guy.
> 
> Put me on ignore. See if I care. Congrats btw for making it to my wall of shame.
> 
> ...



Alright, you can go back to painting with your fingers Sam, peace


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> It's a massive fucking sword, and blocking a sword that big is a feat of strength.
> 
> Did Kakashi do that? If so I concede that that wasn't an exceptional feat for Obito if that's the case.
> 
> ...



Who are you arguing with?



Troyse22 said:


> Alright, you can go back to painting with your fingers Sam, peace



Not sure why you're being so hostile, bro. 

Kisame never showed superior strength to Bee. Period. Tanking a headbutt =/ surviving a Lariat.


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## Bringer (Jun 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame by feats is physically stronger than every sage in the manga minus gods and Hashirama, that scene is a one off whereas his other strength feats are consistent



Kisame has nothing that can compare to Sage Naruto's rhino toss.

His best strength feat is overpowering Base Gai, who is no slouch in strength

He fodderized that one giant animal, but part 1 Sasuke did the same thing to a giant bear/part 1 Naruto did the same thing to a giant snake. 

Base Killer Bee overpowering V2 Ei's lariat falls under "Minato's kunai threatening Raikage" bin. It was purely plot, and after Ei lost Killer Bee went on his spiel about his source of power being the words Ei spoke to him in front of the water fall of truth. The lariat vs lariat was a battle of convictions, not a contest of strength.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 21, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Kisame has nothing that can compare to Sage Naruto's rhino toss.
> 
> His best strength feat is overpowering Base Gai, who is no slouch in strength
> 
> ...



I was with you until you said this. This wasn't ''purely plot'', this is proof Bee actually became a badass and proof Ay had become to underestimate him ever since becoming Raikage. There's also no proof Minato threatening Ay was plot considering that Minato's space-time Ninjutsu might augment his striking force. I mean, it is* light speed travel*, after all - Admiral Holdo in Star Wars sequels showed how this concept could be exploited to do horrific damage.

Minato's Rasengan also did _much _more damage than any regular Rasengan we've ever seen and even Naruto's Odama Rasengan, and that too was a Minato who had just teleported. This would also explain why Sasuke could hurt Ten-Tails Madara with a _sword_


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## Bringer (Jun 21, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I was with you until you said this. This wasn't ''purely plot'', this is proof Bee actually became a badass and proof Ay had become to underestimate him ever since becoming Raikage. There's also no proof Minato threatening Ay was plot considering that Minato's space-time Ninjutsu might augment his striking force. I mean, it is* light speed travel*, after all - Admiral Holdo in Star Wars sequels showed how this concept could be exploited to do horrific damage.
> 
> Minato's Rasengan also did _much _more damage than any regular Rasengan we've ever seen and even Naruto's Odama Rasengan, and that too was a Minato who had just teleported. This would also explain why Sasuke could hurt Ten-Tails Madara with a _sword_




It's not light speed travel. It's teleportation. FTG doesn't increase striking power. Minato's kunai isn't hurting shrouded Ei 


Which Minato rasengan did more damage than Naruto's rasengan?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 21, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *It's not light speed travel. It's teleportation*. FTG doesn't increase striking power. Minato's kunai isn't hurting shrouded Ei
> 
> 
> *Which Minato rasengan did more damage than Naruto's rasengan*?



Teleportation is light speed travel though, at least in this case. I might be wrong, but it would explain a lot of other things.

Minato's Rasengan against Obito blew up the ground in a way Naruto's never did.

Compare this...



To this. Naruto was even in Sage Mode at the time.


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## Bringer (Jun 21, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Teleportation is light speed travel though, at least in this case. I might be wrong, but it would explain a lot of other things.
> 
> Minato's Rasengan against Obito blew up the ground in a way Naruto's never did.



Teleportation _isn't_ light speed travel 

We've never seen Naruto use rasengan on someone into the ground. We saw part 1 Naruto create a massive trail in the ground and launch Kabuto into a large boulder hard enough to dent it, and also completely blow out the back of a steel water tank. And we saw Jiraiya's rasengan only manage to put a small hole into a tree. The DC seems to be influenced by the user.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *Teleportation isn't light speed travel *



It often is in fiction.



BringerOfChaos said:


> *We've never seen Naruto use rasengan on someone into the ground*. We saw part 1 Naruto create a massive trail in the ground and launch Kabuto into a large boulder hard enough to dent it, and also completely blow out the back of a steel water tank. And we saw Jiraiya's rasengan only manage to put a small hole into a tree. The DC seems to be influenced by the user.



We have, actually. Read my last post, I posted a picture!


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## Bringer (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It often is in fiction.



We actually saw light speed travel in Naruto.



Minato body isn't being torn apart.




> We have, actually. Read my last post, I posted a picture!



Oops. You added to your post while my reply was being written. I answer your scan with... scans of my own.



This is what novice Naruto did to the ground without it even being aimed downwards.



I guess part 1 Naruto rasengan is >>>Sage Mode Naruto 

Or Kishi is inconsistent with art/or the power varies depending on the users desired output.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> We actually saw light speed travel in Naruto.



They're two entirely different forms of teleportation. 



BringerOfChaos said:


> I guess part 1 Naruto rasengan is >>>Sage Mode Naruto
> 
> Or Kishi is inconsistent with art/or the power varies depending on the users desired output.



Funny, in none of those images is Naruto slamming an opponent into the ground like in the one I provided.

I agree with the ''power varies'' part, but Naruto wasn't holding back in any of those images and neither was Minato.


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## Bringer (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> They're two entirely different forms of teleportation.





Or one is actual light speed travel and the other is regular teleportation that doesn't work like space wars. Star battles. Sun conflict.

In fact, can you post me a scan or quote that FTG is light speed travel?



> Funny, in none of those images is Naruto slamming an opponent into the ground like in the one I provided.
> 
> I agree with the ''power varies'' part, but Naruto wasn't holding back in any of those images and neither was Minato.



Naruto did substantial damage to the ground_ without_ slamming Kabuto to the ground. I'm just imploring you to use your imagination. If Naruto could create a huge ass trail by launching kabuto foward, what do you think would happen if he slammed Kabuto down?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Or one is actual light speed travel and the other is regular teleportation that doesn't work like space wars. Star battles. Sun conflict.
> 
> In fact, can you post me a scan or quote that FTG is light speed travel?



Gladly.





BringerOfChaos said:


> Naruto did substantial damage to the ground_ without_ slamming Kabuto to the ground. I'm just imploring you to use your imagination. *If Naruto could create a huge ass trail by launching kabuto foward, what do you think would happen if he slammed Kabuto down*?



Yeah, I guess you're right here.


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## Bringer (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Gladly.



It's a space time technique, not light speed travel. The entry even says that the technique works similarly to summoning jutsu. 

You know what was specifically stated to not work like summoning jutsu?

The light speed heavenly transfer jutsu.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> It's a space time technique, not light speed travel. The entry even says that the technique works similarly to summoning jutsu.
> 
> You know what was specifically stated to not work like summoning jutsu?
> 
> The light speed heavenly transfer jutsu.



It's not called light speed, but it is called instant speed.

Also, if the Light Transfer Jutsu doesn't work like Summoning Jutsu...isn't that proving my point?

I_ am_ saying the two techniques are different. You were the one doubting it.



Jad said:


> And Jiraiya's 'feat' of punching/kicking a Giant summon back is '_dubious_' at best, since no one know how it happened as it was under the shadow of the pipes, and later on both times he used Taijutsu his strength was never displayed to be that high.



That's fair, but Jiraiya did _tank_ its attack in Sage Mode. We know it hit Jiraiya at a time the guy could not use Ninjutsu. And we do know even if J-Man is much weaker than SM Naruto, Naruto tossed a summon of incredible size into the stratosphere (or at least so high equally large summons needed to jump up themselves PANELS later to kill them off). Even if Jiraiya has only a _quarter_ of that strength, he'd be Kisame's equal at least in strength. Kisame has never done anything that great.

The other times Jiraiya went up against someone who was his equal in strength. If we looked at Guy vs Kisame, excluded the Gates, and *excluded all other Guy scenes or feats*, Guy wouldn't look so strong either by that logic.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

Jad said:


> And Jiraiya's 'feat' of punching/kicking a Giant summon back is '_dubious_' at best, since no one know how it happened as it was under the shadow of the pipes, and later on both times he used Taijutsu his strength was never displayed to be that high.



That's fair, but Jiraiya did _tank_ its attack in Sage Mode. We know it hit Jiraiya at a time the guy could not use Ninjutsu.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 22, 2020)

Gai cuts his fucking throat. He was shitting on Rinnegan Hashirama Cell Obito, and literally countering him in rapid succession w/o a reaction. What?

Y'all think this is a fucking match?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

Sage light said:


> *Gai cuts his fucking throat. He was shitting on Rinnegan Hashirama Cell Obito*, and literally countering him in rapid succession w/o a reaction. What?



Guy wasn't shitting on anyone, actually. Blocking a few blows =/ shitting, and Obito was dealing with Kakashi and KCM Naruto too.

Also, Rinnegan Obito is a different opponent from SM Jiraiya. Obito has no super strength like Jiraiya does (Kakashi was able to beat Obito down in CQC) and has a relatively stationary fighting style out of his phasing.


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## Bringer (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not called light speed, but it is called instant speed.
> 
> Also, if the Light Transfer Jutsu doesn't work like Summoning Jutsu...isn't that proving my point?
> 
> I_ am_ saying the two techniques are different. You were the one doubting it.




No. I'm saying one technique is absolutely referring to light speed travel. Said technique that was absolutely referring to light speed travel was said to be nothing like summoning jutsu.

But, FTG is a technique that was said to be like summoning jutsu, which was said to be unlike speed of light traveling technique.

My point is, summoning jutsu/FTG isn't traveling point A to be point B. Space/time is manipulated. While actual light speed travel is something moving from point A to point B. 

Teleportation isn't super fast speed. Teleportation is... teleportation. There's a reason why summoning/FTG is called a space time ninjutsu and heavenly transfer isn't called one.

But getting to the root point, no, I don't think Minato's attacks have the momentum of the speed of light behind them.


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## Bringer (Jun 22, 2020)

Sage light said:


> Gai cuts his fucking throat. He was shitting on Rinnegan Hashirama Cell Obito, and literally countering him in rapid succession w/o a reaction. What?
> 
> Y'all think this is a fucking match?




Imagine thinking that's a feat for Gai and not an antifeat for Obito


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Guy wasn't shitting on anyone, actually. Blocking a few blows =/ shitting, and Obito was dealing with Kakashi and KCM Naruto too.
> 
> Also, Rinnegan Obito is a different opponent from SM Jiraiya. Obito has no super strength like Jiraiya does (Kakashi was able to beat Obito down in CQC) and has a relatively stationary fighting style out of his phasing.



Well he couldn't fucking react when Gai consecutively outsmarted him physically. Obito partially tanked a Minato Rasengan the size of a fucking basketball mate.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> No. I'm saying one technique is absolutely referring to light speed travel. Said technique that was absolutely referring to light speed travel was said to be nothing like summoning jutsu.
> 
> But, FTG is a technique that was said to be like summoning jutsu, which was said to be unlike speed of light traveling technique.
> 
> ...



We'll have to agree to disagree then. Hyperspace teleportation allows for destructive damage in Star Wars and I see no reason something similar can't apply in Naruto. Heck, if you want to bring in the Summoning Jutsu, Minato's Food Cart Destroyer was able to pin 100% Kurama (who dug out of Pain's Chibaku Tensei as KN8 50% Kurama) to the ground for a while and Jiraiya's Food Cart Destroyer was able to one-shot Orochimaru's gigantic three-headed snake with an_ equally large_ toad.



Sage light said:


> *Well he couldn't fucking react when Gai consecutively outsmarted him physically*. Obito partially tanked a Minato Rasengan the size of a fucking basketball mate.



Guy never landed a hit on Obito himself, so I think you're exaggerating.

Not sure what tanking a Minato Rasengan has to do with anything. That's ENDURANCE, not strength.


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## Bringer (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree then. Hyperspace teleportation allows for destructive damage in Star Wars and I see no reason something similar can't apply in Naruto. Heck, if you want to bring in the Summoning Jutsu, Minato's Food Cart Destroyer was able to pin 100% Kurama (who dug out of Pain's Chibaku Tensei as KN8 50% Kurama) to the ground for a while and Jiraiya's Food Cart Destroyer was able to one-shot Orochimaru's gigantic three-headed snake with an_ equally large_ toad.



Naruto isn't star wars... if anything, something for analogous to FTG would be Goku's instant transmission. 

Kurama had to deal with the surprise factor. Besides, nothing crazy about kaiju pinning kaiju. Fodder giant snakes dying is also cool. It's not like FCD would one shot Manda.

Do you really think FCD hurls the summon at targets at the speed of light? Like, something that big hitting the ground at the speed of light would... kill everyone.* A penny hitting the earth at the speed of light would destroy our planet*. 

But, ignoring science, because, well, science is dumb when discussing a manga, Kishi literally introduced one rule of light travel in Naruto. Inanimate objects are unaffected, but living things get torn apart if they aren't durable enough. That is his fictional standards of speed of light movement. Why would FTG users and summoning jutsu be exempt by this one very specific rule he established.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Naruto isn't star wars... if anything, something for analogous to FTG would be Goku's instant transmission.
> 
> Kurama had to deal with the surprise factor. Besides, nothing crazy about kaiju pinning kaiju. Fodder giant snakes dying is also cool. It's not like FCD would one shot Manda.
> 
> ...



Naruto isn't Dragon Ball either.

Dude, I just accepted it doesn't have to be at light speed, it can just be at ''instant'' speed or whatever speed it's supposed to be at.

Kaiju killing kaiju of equal sizes by just FALLING on them is kind of a big deal.


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## Bringer (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Naruto isn't Dragon Ball either.
> 
> Dude, I just accepted it doesn't have to be at light speed, it can just be at ''instant'' speed or whatever speed it's supposed to be at.
> 
> Kaiju killing kaiju of equal sizes by just FALLING on them is kind of a big deal.



Okay.

Now what if I said "instantaneous" teleportation has no added momentum behind it, as the characters aren't building any momentum actually traveling from point A to point B.


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## ShadowBlade77 (Jun 22, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> He went into a cqc match where he dies if he gets touched. Not even hit but touched. A physical combat where he can't get touched by someone who has sharingan precog.
> And he's still jonin level.


I know right? It's funny how certain users try to downplay Gai by bringing his early Part 2 performance against Kisame, while completely ignoring his performance against Obito. Apparently Naruto and Sasuke have a monopoly on becoming stronger as the series progresses.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 22, 2020)

Base Gai featless in 1 v 1 situation. People low to throw Obito feats. 

Well same Gai forced to use 6th Gate against %30 Fake Kisame. He wasnt able to hold %30 Fake Kisame's sword thrust while same thing done by Gama effortlessly  And SM Jiraiya throw Boss Summons to air like a towell paper.  


Lol. People are hypocrite as always.

SM Jiraiya dusts him. Give him 6th Gate at least then we have  a fight.


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## JayK (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> no stronger than Kakashi physically


So the Sannin camp has gone as far as to downplay Obito's physical stats.

Obito who is superior to KCM2 Naruto in every way possible is suddenly supposedly weaker than Kakashi.

And ofc the entire Sannin fandom upvotes this trash

Just pure shit.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Base Gai featless in 1 v 1 situation. People low to throw Obito feats.
> 
> Well same Gai forced to use 6th Gate against %30 Fake Kisame. He wasnt able to hold %30 Fake Kisame's sword thrust while same thing done by Gama effortlessly  And SM Jiraiya throw Boss Summons to air like a towell paper.
> 
> ...



30% Kisame has 100% Kisame's physical strength though. They have the same bodies.

Six Gated Guy would beat SM Jiraiya in CQC. Base Guy isn't featless, although he cannot beat a _Sage_.



JayK said:


> So the Sannin camp has gone as far as to downplay Obito's physical stats.
> 
> Obito who is superior to KCM2 Naruto in every way possible is suddenly supposedly weaker than Kakashi.
> 
> ...



Yes, your post is pure shit.

Obito isn't superior to KCM2 Naruto ''in every way possible''. He is exactly as strong as Kakashi physically. Or did you forget the fight where Kakashi handed Obito his ass in Taijutsu? Kakashi is unexceptional in terms of strength.


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## JayK (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Obito isn't superior to KCM2 Naruto ''in every way possible''.


Yes, yes he fucking is.

Dude legit no sells 2 Rasengans of the later, has better reaction speed, has better combat speed (as was literally fucking shown when he fought 4 fucking enemies including KCM2 Naruto at the same fucking time) and easily slices through the Hachibi. Same Hachibi who tanked his own BB flicked back at him from the Juubi.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> He is exactly as strong as Kakashi physically. Or did you forget the fight where Kakashi handed Obito his ass in Taijutsu? Kakashi is unexceptional in terms of strength.


I guess you missed the part where Obito clearly stated that he lost the fight on purpose. Or isn't that the case now anymore as it doesn't fit in the current agenda of this thread for you Sannin wankers?

He even put Kakashi in a Genjutsu at the beginning of the fight to animate him to the very action the fight lead up to.

You know nothing but as is expected from someone shitting out such obnoxious garbage. Just downplaying every character which is not fitting in your idea of having the Sannin look better than they are.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 22, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Base Gai featless in 1 v 1 situation. People low to throw Obito feats.
> 
> Well same Gai forced to use 6th Gate against %30 Fake Kisame. He wasnt able to hold %30 Fake Kisame's sword thrust while same thing done by Gama effortlessly  And SM Jiraiya throw Boss Summons to air like a towell paper.
> 
> ...



Talks about hypocrites and only mentions early p2 Gai's performance while ignoring his WA feats vs Obito


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

JayK said:


> Yes, yes he fucking is.
> 
> Dude has better reaction speed, has better combat speed and easily slices through the Hachibi. Same Hachibi who tanked his own BB flicked back at him from the Juubi.



So much ignorance in one comment lmao._ All _the tailed beasts are resistant to the effects of their own Tailed Beast Bombs. This is proven by the fact that they regularly tank the backlash and even explosions of their own bombs but get damaged by (much) weaker attacks can't damage them. 50% Kurama got put down by a FRS that's nowhere near the power of its Tailed Beast Bomb, the Juubi _lost limbs_ to BMFRS but took ZERO damage from BM Naruto + BM Bee using their Tailed Beast Bombs in a weaker form and tanked its own Tailed Beast Bomb exploding inside its body, and Gyuki was nearly knocked out by Kokuo's horn attack while tanking its own Tailed Beast Bomb without severe damage.

Also, slicing through the Eight-Tails isn't a feat, the Eight-Tails is _weak as shit_ against cutting attacks of any kind lmao. Kakashi blocked that same slicing attack Obito used (fucking _shuriken_) with a fucking MUD WALL. That's nothing impressive.

The rest of this is stuff you made up. Obito doesn't have better reaction or combat speed. Obito got his butt kicked by Kakashi and Base Guy, both of who were trembling in fear of five Tailed Beast Bombs Naruto knocked away like they were nothing.



JayK said:


> I guess you missed the part where Obito clearly stated that he lost the fight on purpose.



Obito didn't lose the fight on purpose. And that's...not proof Obito has super strength though.

Kakashi just beat his ass in Taijutsu just like in the old days. The past and present are even juxtaposed together.

Obito could literally have killed Kakashi and fatally injured himself with a kunai himself to screw Madara over. Obito even outright says Kakashi won the FIGHT (but lost the WAR as winning the fight allowed him to take control of the Ten-Tails).

Or isn't that the case now anymore as it doesn't fit in the current agenda of this thread for you Sannin wankers?



JayK said:


> He even put Kakashi in a Genjutsu at the beginning of the fight to animate him to the very action the fight lead up to.



Kakashi broke out of the Genjutsu. Your point?



JayK said:


> You know nothing but as is expected from someone shitting out such obnoxious garbage. Just downplaying every character which is not fitting in your idea of having the Sannin look better than they are.



Projection much? I actually prefer Kakashi (and Guy) to the Sannin, so you're talking out of your ass here.

Also, watch your mouth before you get banned.


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## JayK (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So much ignorance in one comment lmao._ All _the tailed beasts are resistant to the effects of their own Tailed Beast Bombs. This is proven by the fact that they regularly tank the backlash and even explosions of their own bombs but get damaged by (much) weaker attacks can't damage them.


Headcanon



Aegon Targaryen said:


> 50% Kurama got put down by a FRS that's nowhere near the power of its Tailed Beast Bomb


He literally fucking laughed at SM Naruto's FRS in their inner struggle though?



Aegon Targaryen said:


> the Juubi _lost limbs_ to BMFRS but took ZERO damage from BM Naruto + BM Bee using their Tailed Beast Bombs in a weaker form and tanked its own Tailed Beast Bomb exploding inside its body


(BM) FRS cuts on a molecular level, imagine comparing that to a standard TBB

*weaker* btw



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Gyuki was nearly knocked out by Kokuo's horn attack while tanking its own Tailed Beast Bomb without severe damage.


focused piercing vs pure explosion

*weaker* btw



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, slicing through the Eight-Tails isn't a feat, the Eight-Tails is _weak as shit_ against cutting attacks of any kind lmao. Kakashi blocked that same slicing attack Obito used (fucking _shuriken_) with a fucking MUD WALL. That's nothing impressive.


Yeah it's not a feat. It was only replicated by Minato another top end High Kage.

Other than that only MS Sasuke (High Tier aswell btw, shits on Jiraiya btw) was able to do it with Ninjutsu not strength.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Obito doesn't have better reaction or combat speed. Obito got his butt kicked by Kakashi and Base Guy


Headcanon, never happened



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Obito didn't lose the fight on purpose. And that's...not proof Obito has super strength though.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kakashi broke out of the Genjutsu. Your point?


You are fucking lost.

Imma gonna hold it here actually. You are not worth my time.

cheers


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

JayK said:


> Headcanon



Actually, it's fact - as proven by the evidence I've provided.



JayK said:


> He literally fucking laughed at SM Naruto's FRS in their inner struggle though?



*Yeah, this is a fucking lie*. Kurama was so weakened he couldn't even stand up, allowing Naruto to steal his chakra.





JayK said:


> (BM) FRS cuts on a molecular level, imagine comparing that to a standard TBB



Is that why Naruto wanted to learn the Tailed Beast Bomb in spite of having the Rasenshuriken?



Even tried to use it against the Third Raikage who no-selled the FRS in spite of its elemental advantage?



Standard TBB? I'm comparing BMFRS to *JUUBI'S TBB*. What the actual fuck?





JayK said:


> *weaker* btw
> 
> focused piercing vs pure explosion



Because a pure explosion can't be stronger than forced piercing...according to what, exactly?

Considering that KCM Naruto tried to learn the Tailed Beast Bomb and use it against a guy who tanked FRS, you're wrong.



JayK said:


> Yeah it's not a feat. It was only replicated by Minato another top end High Kage.



Kakashi blocked it with a mud wall, which isn't even close to a Susano'o ribcage in defense. Don't be ignorant.

I like how you ignored that point. So fucking dishonest.





JayK said:


> Headcanon, never happened



Obito lost to Kakashi in CQC and had trouble with Base Guy even with space-time Ninjutsu as well as the gunbai. 

Had Obito been using neither of those, BASE GUY would have annihilated him. It's as if your bae isn't that great.



JayK said:


> Imma gonna hold it here actually. You are not worth my time.



Concession accepted. I am indeed worth more than your time. You are a garbage debater.


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## JayK (Jun 22, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Concession accepted. I am indeed worth more than your time. You are a garbage debater.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> I like how you ignored that point. So fucking dishonest.


You are legit comparing Obito throwing Shuriken to Obito wielding them and then claim I ignored something while you conviniently leave out the fact that Obito was still headtanking KCM Naruto and shitting on him + his clones with the Gunbai super casually in CQC.

But please, feel free to replace Obito with Jiraiya against that squad since you are implying Jiraiya would've performed better than the former here.

I am abandoning this thread. This is beyond hope.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 22, 2020)

JayK said:


> You are legit comparing Obito throwing Shuriken



That's because...Obito did the _exact same thing_ against the Eight-Tails? Are you really -snip- to not understand what I'm saying?



JayK said:


> to Obito wielding them



Funny, because Obito couldn't kill Kakashi with repeated shuriken slashes either.

What's next, Kakashi is more durable than KCM2 Naruto too?





JayK said:


> while you conviniently leave out the fact that Obito was still headtanking KCM Naruto and shitting on him + his clones with the Gunbai super casually in CQC.



Headtanking KCM Naruto? Lol wtf? Obito tanked KCM Naruto's headbutt because he was wearing a durable mask. Knocking KCM Naruto and his clones away with his gunbai is a CQC feat, not a strength feat.



JayK said:


> But please, feel free to replace Obito with Jiraiya against that squad since you are implying Jiraiya would've performed better than the former here.



Never said Jiraiya would've done better. Do not put words in my mouth.

My point is that Jiraiya is superior to Obito in terms of PHYSICAL stats, not in terms of OVERALL fighting ability.



JayK said:


> I am abandoning this thread. This is beyond hope.



Concession accepted.


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## Speedyamell (Jun 22, 2020)

I don't know what's happening here.. but gai gets stomped. Base gai doesn't have a guaranteed win against base jiraiya in cqc. Putting him against sage jiraiya is just dumb

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 22, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> I don't know what's happening here..



That's evident from the conclusion you arrived to.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 22, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Base Gai featless in 1 v 1 situation. People low to throw Obito feats.
> 
> Well same Gai forced to use 6th Gate against %30 Fake Kisame. He wasnt able to hold %30 Fake Kisame's sword thrust while same thing done by Gama effortlessly  And SM Jiraiya throw Boss Summons to air like a towell paper.
> 
> ...




Might just be you underrating Gai and Kisame and wanking Jiraiya to high heaven.

Possible, but you're the least biased poster I know so I doubt it


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 22, 2020)

LostSelf said:


> Kisame. Kisame has far more physical strength than Jiraiya and is a better close combat fighter than Jiraiya and Gai disarmed him and took a direct punch from him.
> 
> Why Gai needs to stop them all? Gai is not a Pouch Ingball, Gai can dodge and counter attack with superior skill. And why can't Gai stop them like Human Path effortessly did?
> 
> ...


Kisame has better physical strength than Base Jiraiya, not necessarily SM. Jiraiya tossed away a gigantic charging bull like it was a fodder. And Kisame hasn't shown SM Jiraiya's speed feats. Base Gai still also has to deal with Jiraiya's superior durability, stamina, and endurance as well is the issue.

Superior skill doesn't mean anything against someone with way better stats. What skill helps with in terms of dodging is reading the attack by noticing the preparatory movements that occur before the punch and kick to determine where the attack is headed and when it will reach, so you can start reacting and dodging in advance. In real life, if you don't read those preparatory movements, you typically won't be able to dodge or parry a strike since the human hand/arm can move at astonishing speeds. But reading an opponent's punches and kicks via the preparatory movements doesn't mean anything unless you have speed to back it up. It gives you more time to react, but doesn't make it a guarantee. For instance, 2 tomoe Sasuke could keep with Transformed Gaara during the Sand Invasion by reading his movements through sharingan- same for 3 tomoe Sasuke against KN0 Naruto. But 2 tomoe Sasuke couldn't keep up with Rock Lee when the latter opened up the first gate. Reading an opponent's movements only goes so far, you still need to have enough speed. Reading the timing only beats speed in equal amounts. Big speed difference  >>>  timing. SM Jiraiya is noticeably faster than Base Gai is the issue, and isn't a completely unskilled opponent. Gai also has to get accustomed to Jiraiya's speed. He is accustomed to sparring with people like Kakashi, who have far less speed than SM Jiraiya.    Gai may have a wider arsenal of taijutsu techniques and more efficiency in movements but that doesn't matter if Jiraiya can close the gap with speed and better physical stats.


Lol. Like I said. Pain only reacted to one of Jiraiya's taijutsu attacks, a standing punch against a target who he believed couldn't see his attack coming.  The other attacks- his jumping kicks against Human path and Animal Path were not reacted to. This is what you aren't taking into consideration. Jiraiya isn't limited to standing punches. you're forgetting he has movement/running speed as well to utilize as well as jumping speed.


Obito and SM Jiraiya are two different types of taijutsu fighters. Obito generally doesn't block or parry attacks, which Jiraiya would have the option to do, which is where his strength and durability advantage against Gai would shine. If he tanks and catches one of Gai's punches or kicks for instance, they can be parried which can throw Gai off balance, like Lee did to Naruto here:


The nunchaku that went through Obito's head thanks to phasing is something that Jiraiya would parry.  Gai kicking the nunchaku back into his head was a feat of good dexterity and good skill but again different scenario and  limitations. They were in mid -air where maneuverability is much more limited. 

Obito kept up with KCM Naruto who didn't use his top speed. Speed isn't a static property, @ShinAkuma make a thread explaining this please XD (P.S. thanks for the rep).  By your logic, if Gai is as fast as KCM Naruto then he should be able to speedBlitz Kisame even in Base, which never happened so... KCM Naruto isn't particularly fast when he isn't using Shunshin. Black zetsu kept up with him, Base Bee kept up with Him, SM Naruto is stated to have faster danger sense and reflexes and CQC than KCM Naruto (sans Shunshin) when he fought the third Raikage, Chiyo and Kimimaro kept up, Kakashi kept up, Itachi kept up etc.  SM Jiraiya showed high movement speed even without Shunshin  (which he only used in tandem with a smokescreen to escape into the pipes). He moved pretty fast when using Cho Odama Rasengan, in addition to the other CQC feats already mentioned.


Obito wasn't moving particularly fast, just evading attacks with instant teleportation lol. 

Base Gai doesn't have any physical strength feats that say he is weaker or stronger or equal to Human Path, now does he?


The 8 inner Gates boost all physical stats. Physical strength doesn't equal durability, but newton's third law dictates that some amount of durability must be paired with physical strength so that you don't completely destroy your hand when you punch something that is reasonably durable.

For instance, if it takes 100 pounds of punching force to break a concrete wall, and you can transmit 130, but your hand can also only sustain 100 pounds of counter-force, then when you punch the wall it will break apart but you will suffer severe external and/or internal damage to your fist lol. No way does Base Gai scale to 7th or 8th gate Gai in durability. Gai took noticeable internal damage from Kisame's punch to the gut, and Kisame  is much weaker than 7th Gate or 8th Gai in punching strength. If Gated Gai punched Base Gai he would be in a hell of pain while Gated Gai wouldn't feel any damage to his fists lol. If they had the same durability than both Gais would feel the same damage when Gated Gai punches Base Gai. Do you really believe that Gated Gai would cough up blood if he was punched by Kisame? Hell no.

Strength doesn't equal durability though as I said. Tsunade hits harder than A4 but is less durable in comparison, any internal damage that would happen inside her hand would be invisible and also quickly healed thanks to her healing. Kimimaro's Bone spear broke against the Shield of Shukaku for instance because Kimimaro was applying too much strength in comparison to what it could tank.

So for instance, say it took 200 pounds of piercing force to break through the Shield of Shukaku. Kimimaro is capable of applying that much force or greater, say 250 pounds,  but his bone spear can only sustain 150 pounds of counter-force before completely breaking, that's why his spear broke into dust while Gaara's shield continued standing unharmed. But if his spear could sustain 230 pounds of force before breaking apart, then The Shield of Shukaku would been pierced through, while the bone spear would have experienced some fracture but wouldn't have been completely disintegrated is the difference. IF Kimimaro only supplied 50 pounds of force though in either scenario, then neither The shield of Shukaku or the bone spear would experience any noticeable damage.

Reactions: Like 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 22, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Might just be you underrating Gai and Kisame and wanking Jiraiya to high heaven


Even if i say "no". You still gonna believe to what you wanna believe. So its pointless.


But im not lowball these two. Just pumping up one little fraction of a moment feat of Gai aint gonna cover all of his career. And even then it wasnt a purely 1 v 1. 

And Base Jiraiya tanked Base Gai's biggest Taijutsu attack soo ? What he can offer more than that ? 

Btw dude, you're the one who thinks Kisame = Nagato. So its clear witch one of s underrating or overrating Kisame and his foes. 

No hard feelings. But if we're gonna talking about each of our bias. 

Yikes ! I'm not match for you in that expertise

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 23, 2020)

Man, we all need to chill. Look at us, throwing and exchanging insults over a fictional comic book.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 23, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Even if i say "no". You still gonna believe to what you wanna believe. So its pointless.
> 
> 
> But im not lowball these two. Just pumping up one little fraction of a moment feat of Gai aint gonna cover all of his career. And even then it wasnt a purely 1 v 1.
> ...





JiraiyaFlash said:


> Even if i say "no". You still gonna believe to what you wanna believe. So its pointless.



Yeah my opinions tend to be based on canon information, while yours are just head canon straight from the leaders of the Sannin wank hivemind, Turrin and Matto.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 23, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> *Yeah my opinions tend to be based on canon information*, while yours are just head canon straight from the leaders of the Sannin wank hivemind, Turrin and Matto.



You mean like Kisame being >>>> Base Bee in physical strength?


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## Troyse22 (Jun 23, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You mean like Kisame being >>>> Base Bee in physical strength?



That's right


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 23, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> That's right



What canon information backs that up?


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## Troyse22 (Jun 23, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What canon information backs that up?



Kisame on 30% being called "superhuman" by Gai.

Gai who equaled Rinne Obito in strength

And it's a bitter to swallow to say Bee is over 3x stronger than Obito and Gai

Rekt


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## Troyse22 (Jun 23, 2020)

And y'know, when Bee charges Kisame and tries to stab him and Kisame blocks with his sword he holds it no problem despite it being a max strength stab, and he does it with a smile on his face.

I mean, it honestly can't be respectably argued that Kisame is beneath BASE Bee in strength


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 23, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> *Kisame on 30% being called "superhuman" by Ga*i.



Kisame's 30% clone has the same body as the original. Kisame himself says this.





Troyse22 said:


> Gai who equaled Rinne Obito in strength



Rinne Obito isn't that strong. Kakashi was able to match blows with him just fine.



Troyse22 said:


> Rekt



Your argument has been, yes.



Troyse22 said:


> And y'know, when Bee charges Kisame and tries to stab him and Kisame blocks with his sword he holds it no problem despite it being a max strength stab, and he does it with a smile on his face.
> 
> I mean, it honestly can't be respectably argued that Kisame is beneath BASE Bee in strength



Implying Bee uses his full strength for a sword stab lmao (that would technically break the swords). You do realize even *a weakened Sasuke* (who has no superhuman strength whatsoever) was able to block Bee's swords, right?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 24, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame's 30% clone has the same body as the original. Kisame himself says this.



Yes the same body, not the same stats though, as he himself remarks in this fucking scan.

"The amount of Chakra taken and passed over isn't that significant. SO IN PROPORTION OUR *STRENGTH* and Jutsu we can use are limited"

Now you could say "he meant battle strength" which would be fine IF he didn't ALSO say Jutsu, which would be part of battle strength. If he meant battle strength the Jutsu part would be entirely redundant.

Kisame was at 30% physical strength, as was Itachi.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Rinne Obito isn't that strong.





I'm not gonna comb through his 1000 war arc feats, big one is him headbutting KCM Naruto and not having his neck broken or at least being sent flying.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kakashi was able to match blows with him just fine.





Obito was holding back, but trying hard enough to make it believable for Kakashi so he could remove the curse mark on his heart, this is well established.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Implying Bee uses his full strength for a sword stab lmao (that would technically break the swords).



Not if he's thrusting them through flesh, which is what he was trying to do to Kisame.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You do realize even *a weakened Sasuke* (who has no superhuman strength whatsoever) was able to block Bee's swords, right?



He blocked slashes, the one time bee applied his strength to a slash it shattered Sasukes guard.

If Bee could handle Kisame in base he wouldn't have even went V1 for Base Kisame.

But it's pointless to talk about this with you because you keep stating that Bee was negatively physically impacted by Samehada, which is not shown or implied *to his base form* . And ESPECIALLY not on their first CQC clash.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 24, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> *Yes the same body*, not the same stats though, as he himself remarks in this fucking scan.



The same body means the same (physical) stats. Sorry.



Troyse22 said:


> "The amount of Chakra taken and passed over isn't that significant. SO IN PROPORTION OUR *STRENGTH* and Jutsu we can use are limited"
> 
> Now you could say "he meant battle strength" which would be fine IF he didn't ALSO say Jutsu, which would be part of battle strength. If he meant battle strength the Jutsu part would be entirely redundant.



Jutsu =/ battle strength. Kakashi would be as strong as he is now if he mysteriously lost 50% of his 1000+ jutsu, so long as he didn't lose anything important like Lightning Blade or his Mangekyo Sharingan warping powers.

That's why it's important to specify both were limited. Notice that Kisame never said_ physical_ strength.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame was at 30% physical strength, as was Itachi.







Yeah, you're wrong. Unless you think Itachi is 3x as strong as Kakashi or something too lol...



Obviously, he's not. Itachi and Kakashi are actually in the same strength tier by both feats and Databook stats.



Troyse22 said:


> I'm not gonna comb through his 1000 war arc feats, big one is him headbutting KCM Naruto and not having his neck broken or at least being sent flying.



This never happened. _Naruto _headbutted Obito and couldn't hurt him because of Obito's mask.

That's not a strength feat. That's a durability feat at best. Are you listening to yourself?





Troyse22 said:


> Obito was holding back, but trying hard enough to make it believable for Kakashi so he could remove the curse mark on his heart, this is well established.



There's no proof Obito was holding back his strength. Not one bit. Obito himself stated Kakashi won the FIGHT.



Troyse22 said:


> Not if he's thrusting them through flesh, which is what he was trying to do to Kisame.



You have no proof to make this claim.



Troyse22 said:


> He blocked slashes, the one time bee applied his strength to a slash it shattered Sasukes guard.



So slashes are less powerful than a thrust according to....what, exactly?



Troyse22 said:


> If Bee could handle Kisame in base he wouldn't have even went V1 for Base Kisame.
> 
> But it's pointless to talk about this with you because you keep stating that Bee was negatively physically impacted by Samehada, which is not shown or implied *to his base form* . And ESPECIALLY not on their first CQC clash.



Yes, conveniently ignore the fact that Bee didn't even have his seven swords against Kisame - y'know, the reason he pwned Sasuke.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 24, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The same body means the same (physical) stats





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Notice that Kisame never said_ physical_ strength.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Databook stats





Aegon Targaryen said:


> There's no proof Obito was holding back his strength





Aegon Targaryen said:


> You have no proof to make this claim





Aegon Targaryen said:


> So slashes are less powerful than a thrust according to....what, exactly



These things will not be responded to, not because they're unaddressable, but because they're fucking stupid.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, you're wrong. Unless you think Itachi is 3x as strong as Kakashi or something too lol...



For sure Itachi is 3x Kakashis physical strength. Not that being 3x Kakashi in physical strength is some huge feat lol.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> This never happened. _Naruto _headbutted Obito and couldn't hurt him because of Obito's mask.



If he was too weak his neck would've broken from the impact or at least he would've been sent flying away


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jun 24, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You mean like Kisame being >>>> Base Bee in physical strength?


Thats one of the most acceptable claims of his  Kisame gives hard diff to Hashirama and he is equal to Nagato  I mean  Base Bee is very sweet at that point .D


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 25, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> These things will not be responded to, not because they're unaddressable, but because they're fucking stupid.



Funny, a lot of people - myself included - would say the same thing about the things you've said.

Including your VERY next comment and your Kisame >>>> Base Bee comment.

*


Troyse22 said:



			For sure Itachi is 3x Kakashis physical strength.
		
Click to expand...

*


Troyse22 said:


> Not that being 3x Kakashi in physical strength is some huge feat lol.



Yeah, this is _absolute bullshit_ - Itachi and Kakashi have the SAME strength stat (3.5) in the Third Databook lmao.



Troyse22 said:


> If he was too weak his neck would've broken from the impact or at least he would've been sent flying away



What part of wearing a fucking _mask_ do you not get? A really durable mask that doesn't even CRACK from Naruto's headbutt?


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## Troyse22 (Jun 25, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, this is _absolute bullshit_ - Itachi and Kakashi have the SAME strength stat (3.5) in the Third Databook lmao.



Idk why you're under the impression that I care about the DB's.

Secondary and non canon source, i'll go with the manga, thanks.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> What part of wearing a fucking _mask_ do you not get? A really durable mask that doesn't even CRACK from Naruto's headbutt?



He still has to possess the strength to not be sent flying.

A4 was not injured from Killer Bee's Lariat, but he was sent flying because he didn't have the strength to hold him back, but had the durability to tank the attack.

If Naruto was physically stronger than Obito, he would have sent him flying, but uninjured

Idk what's so fucking hard to understand about that.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Including your VERY next comment and your Kisame >>>> Base Bee comment.



You act like that's some wild eyed insane theory when it's exactly what we were shown in canon.

If Bee was much physically stronger than Kisame in base, he'd have sent him flying with that headbutt, but Kisame stalemated it while holding back to avoid killing Bee.

Kisame turns up the pressure and Zetsu is like "whoa don't you think that's a bit much" "nope, I used just the right amount for the eight tails" the implication there being Kisame could go even FURTHER if he wanted to.

He was heavily restricted in his Bee fight and still performed amazingly, ignoring feats of chakra exhaustion and such, his strength and speed/reaction feats are incredible.

The debate here is whether Kisame is physically stronger than V2 Bee, not BASE Bee who he absolutely trounces in strength, and the best you can get from the V2 vs Kisame discussion is that they're equals in strength given how they stalemated in the WD, but there's more to that argument than just "lul stalemate"

Kisame is noted throughout the entire manga to possess incredible physical strength, AND put out Jinchuuriki like power. How someone can argue that he's beneath BASE Bee is fucking mind boggling.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 25, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Idk why you're under the impression that I care about the DB's.
> 
> *Secondary and non canon source*, i'll go with the manga, thanks.



Yeah, you made up the non canon part. The Databooks come from Kishimoto himself. By definition they are canon.

''The *Naruto Secret: Scroll of People Character Official Databook* (NARUTO -ナルト- 秘伝・者の書 キャラクターオフィシャルデータBOOK, _NARUTO Hiden: Sha no Sho Kyarakutā Ofisharu DētaBOOK_) is the fourth of the supplementary guidebooks on the  series authored by . It is the third of four databooks and covers the chapters 245 to 402.'' - 

Also, the _manga _says you're wrong too, as I pointed out earlier. Of course you prefer to ignore that since it's inconvenient for your argument.



Troyse22 said:


> He still has to possess the strength to not be sent flying.



Obito's mask absorbed all the impact. I don't know why this is so hard for you to get. It's a tough fucking mask.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame turns up the pressure and Zetsu is like "whoa don't you think that's a bit much" "nope, I used just the right amount for the eight tails" the implication there being Kisame could go even FURTHER if he wanted to.



This has nothing to do with physical strength.



Troyse22 said:


> He was heavily restricted in his Bee fight and still performed amazingly, ignoring feats of chakra exhaustion and such, his strength and speed/reaction feats are incredible.



Bee was pretty damn restricted too and was fighting the worst possible opponent even outside that. You conveniently ignore he couldn't use Tailed Beast Mode due to fear of hurting his friends, didn't have his seven sword style (which is a major part of why he's so fearsome in base), and was fighting a dude whose sword hard counters his fighting style.

Samehada did all the work for Kisame when it comes to speed/reaction.
*


Troyse22 said:



			The debate here is whether Kisame is physically stronger than V2 Bee, not BASE Bee who he absolutely trounces in strength
		
Click to expand...

*
This isn't a debate. Kisame isn't even close to V2 Bee in strength. If he was, Bee wouldn't have torn a hole in him.

Kisame at best is Base Bee's equal, and even _that's_ pushing it. Kisame couldn't even kill Base Guy with a punch, just draw some blood. Base Bee was able to overpower his brother who was able to break Susano'o ribcage bones with his might.

The same Susano'o ribcage tanked Mei's Melt Style, so it >>> Base Guy's durability.


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## Symmetry (Jun 25, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> SM Jiraiya with abilities displayed in canon, meaning no ghost punches or SM sensing,




So you mean the stuff he is stated to have in the DB? Otherwise known as a canon source?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 25, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> So you mean the stuff he is stated to have in the DB? Otherwise known as a canon source?



He says they're not canon.


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