# Kizaru vs Shanks



## Goodboy (Jun 20, 2019)

Just curious...
How would battle go? How can shanks deal with overpowered devil fruit of kizaru....What can admiral come up with , when fighting against an emperor?

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## Shishio ishere (Jun 20, 2019)

Prime Shanks ~ Kizaru > Cripple Shanks = Fujitora


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## Etherborn (Jun 20, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Prime Shanks ~ Kizaru > Cripple Shanks = Fujitora



You think he was stronger 12 years ago than he is now?

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## barreltheif (Jun 20, 2019)

Etherborn said:


> You think he was stronger 12 years ago than he is now?



I don't know whether he was stronger back then, but it's certainly not impossible. Shanks was a yonkou at that point, and still had his dominant hand.
Either way, Shanks probably never realized his true potential.


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## Shishio ishere (Jun 20, 2019)

Etherborn said:


> You think he was stronger 12 years ago than he is now?


I will state a few things before I answer my question
->Shanks Vivre card that states that Shanks has been an emperor for 14+ years right?
->Mihawk vivre card that claims "Mihawk is waiting for swordsman stronger than his rival red hair Shanks to give him a challenge" right?
-> Shanks was a promising rookie at the age of 14 in Gol D Roger's ship right?
->I don't think there will be another time skip and Zoro and Luffy will become WSS and Pirate King respectively in their early 20s.
->Shanks is currently 39 years old right? That would mean he would be in his late 20s 12 years ago?

With all that yes Shanks was in his prime 12 years ago before he lost the arm and with loss of one arm, he is weaker now like any human top tier would be, be it Mihawk or Garp or Dragon or Rayleigh or Roger.


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## Etherborn (Jun 20, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> I will state a few things before I answer my question
> ->Shanks Vivre card that states that Shanks has been an emperor for 14+ years right?
> ->Mihawk vivre card that claims "Mihawk is waiting for swordsman stronger than his rival red hair Shanks to give him a challenge" right?
> -> Shanks was a promising rookie at the age of 14 in Gol D Roger's ship right?
> ...



I wouldn't call Luffy and Zoro's situation the norm. The other Supernovas were considered rookies as well and some of them were older. And yet they still got stronger after the timeskip just like everyone else. 

I don't think age acts quite as much of a limit in the One Piece world as it does in ours. The age where characters are considered past their prime is far higher, because it's not just the body itself that needs to get stronger. Ambition, willpower, mental fortitude...these are all things that have a direct correlation with the strength of one's Haki in the One Piece world. Haki itself is referred to as the strength of one's spirit, and unlike the body, that's something that keeps growing with time. 

Whitebeard himself was 72 when he died, which means he was around 50 when Roger died. Well past the age where you'd think any fighter would retire, at least in our world. And yet he was still considered to be in his prime when Roger was alive. 

Luffy and Zoro are special cases because they've been through so much at a relatively young age, which allows the strength of their spirit to grow alongside the strength of their bodies. Most rookies don't grow as fast as they do. Not even Ace did.

Shanks might be one of those special cases, who knows. It's not a certainty though. 

Anyway, on topic, I give this to Shanks high difficulty. The Marines had 2 Admirals in prime condition at the end of the Marineford war, but Sengoku still stopped it when he arrived. I doubt he would have done that if a single Admiral could take him down. Considering the relatively small size of his crew, I'd go as far as to say that he wouldn't be a Yonko if that was the case.

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## barreltheif (Jun 20, 2019)

Etherborn said:


> I wouldn't call Luffy and Zoro's situation the norm. The other Supernovas were considered rookies as well and some of them were older. And yet they still got stronger after the timeskip just like everyone else.
> I don't think age acts quite as much of a limit in the One Piece world as it does in ours. The age where characters are considered past their prime is far higher, because it's not just the body itself that needs to get stronger. Ambition, willpower, mental fortitude...these are all things that have a direct correlation with the strength of one's Haki in the One Piece world. Haki itself is referred to as the strength of one's spirit, and unlike the body, that's something that keeps growing with time.
> Whitebeard himself was 72 when he died, which means he was around 50 when Roger died. Well past the age where you'd think any fighter would retire, at least in our world. And yet he was still considered to be in his prime when Roger was alive.
> Luffy and Zoro are special cases because they've been through so much at a relatively young age, which allows the strength of their spirit to grow alongside the strength of their bodies. Most rookies don't grow as fast as they do. Not even Ace did.
> ...



Shanks, at age 27, was a yonkou and rival to Mihawk. He had already had legendary duels. Now, it's very possible that he still had room to grow at that point. He probably still had some unrealized potential. Except he sacrificed that potential for Luffy. He gave up his dominant arm. At that point, Mihawk lost interest in fighting Shanks, and decided to wait for someone who surpassed his old rival. This heavily implies that Shanks peaked at age 27.


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## Corax (Jun 21, 2019)

I ll give it to Kizaru as Shanks has only one arm. Anyway all that Mihawk situation is unclear. Yes,now he waits for a true champion to face him and challenge for WSS title (so in his eyes Shanks isn't worthy). But may be they used only swords in their duels (though unlikely,as they both are haki masters and have no DF)?We don't know much about their duels and Shank's fighting style.


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## barreltheif (Jun 21, 2019)

Corax said:


> I ll give it to Kizaru as Shanks has only one arm. Anyway all that Mihawk situation is unclear. Yes,now he waits for a true champion to face him and challenge for WSS title (so in his eyes Shanks isn't worthy). But may be they used only swords in their duels (though unlikely,as they both are haki masters and have no DF)?We don't know much about their duels and Shank's fighting style.



Why would they not use haki? Haki is a crucial part of high level swordsmanship. Do you think they also blindfolded themselves while they fought?


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## Corax (Jun 21, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Why would they not use haki? Haki is a crucial part of high level swordsmanship. Do you think they also blindfolded themselves while they fought?


Not all types may be?Mihawk can't use CoC. But anyway CoC is trash at that lvl. (Chinjo vs Luffy kinda proves it). They very likely used CoO and CoA.


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## barreltheif (Jun 21, 2019)

Corax said:


> Not all types may be?Mihawk can't use CoC. But anyway CoC is trash at that lvl. (Chinjo vs Luffy kinda proves it). They very likely used CoO and CoA.



Why would some types be allowed but not others? Do you think Zoro is planning to avoid using CoC (or other types of haki) when he fights Mihawk?


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## Corax (Jun 21, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Why would some types be allowed but not others? Do you think Zoro is planning to avoid using CoC or other types of haki when he fights Mihawk?


Zoro can't use CoC at least for now. As for Mihawk I don't know can't remeber his vivre card entry.


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## barreltheif (Jun 21, 2019)

Corax said:


> Zoro can't use CoC at least for now. As for Mihawk I don't know can't remeber his vivre card entry.



I wasn't suggesting that they can use CoC (well, Zoro probably can, but that's irrelevant). I don't get why haki would be banned from swordfights. There's never been any indication that haki of any sort wouldn't be allowed in a swordfight. Haki is a supplement to any fighting style. Having good haki is like having good eyesight.


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## YellowCosmos (Jun 21, 2019)

Tough to say. Shanks probably has the haki requirements to deal with Kizaru's speed and his lasers, but with only one arm... I don't know.

I'm gonna say Shanks until we see more of them, but I'm very doubtful of it.

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## Luke (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks.


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## Law (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks very high diff.

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## Fel1x (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks mid-high diff

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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks mid diff IMO

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## Geralt-Singh (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks with extreme diff

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## YellowCosmos (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks winning with medium difficulty is absurd. There is nothing that says he is that far above other Yonkirals.

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## TheWiggian (Jun 21, 2019)

Can go either way.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks > Rayleigh = Kizaru

Extreme diff win


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## Flame (Jun 21, 2019)

Either way, extreme diff.


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## Mysticreader (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks wins, at least high difficulty. Still peg Admirals to be on the same level as YK but excepting for the FA, leaning towards the YK in a 1 vs 1.

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## Steven (Jun 21, 2019)

Shanks

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## Kroczilla (Jun 22, 2019)

Sharks mid diffs


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## Amol (Jun 22, 2019)

Kizaru the guy who is constantly gets paired against FM and gets stalled by them vs Shanks the guy who is MC's idol, Wearer of Strawhats(which might indicate PK potential even though he doesn't have it now) and who stopped the war by arriving at it. 
Kizaru can not compete with Shanks in terms of hype and portyal. He legit can't. Shanks is infinitely more important to plot. The fact it will take PK level BB to beat him should tell you something. 
So yeah it is pure fanboyism to say Kizaru wins here. You can argue Kizaru puts very good fight sure but no way he is winning. 
Oda will never ever write that fight with Shanks losing. 
Shanks wins with High diff.


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## pedxi (Jun 22, 2019)

Shanks will stomp or worst case scenario mid diff


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## Sherlōck (Jun 22, 2019)

Can go either way extreme difficulty.

Favoring Shanks as he was the successor of Rogers SH. 



Amol said:


> The fact it will take PK level BB to beat him should tell you something.



Or beating another top tier (Shanks in this case) will make BB PK level.

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## Amol (Jun 22, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Can go either way extreme difficulty.
> 
> Favoring Shanks as he was the successor of Rogers SH.
> 
> ...


What you are saying actually supports my argument. 
Shanks has to have very very powerful even by Yonkou standards if beating him places you on PK level. 
There are multiple examples of one Top tier beating another Top tier but we don't consider them PK level. 
So yeah Shanks has extreme hype and portyal and there is no way in hell he loses. He has too much of plot importance for that.

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## Sherlōck (Jun 22, 2019)

Amol said:


> *What you are saying actually supports my argument. *
> 
> Shanks has to have very very powerful even by Yonkou standards if beating him places you on PK level.
> 
> ...



It actually doesn't .

Ignoring that I do think currently Shanks is the second strongest Yonko after Kaido. So yes, beating a top tier of Shanks caliber will certainly elevate BB to PK level.

There aren't multiple example of one top tier beating another. There is only one example. And you might not consider Akainu PK level but many including Oda certainly does.


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## Amol (Jun 22, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> It actually doesn't .
> 
> Ignoring that I do think currently Shanks is the second strongest Yonko after Kaido. So yes, beating a top tier of Shanks caliber will certainly elevate BB to PK level.
> 
> There aren't multiple example of one top tier beating another. There is only one example. And you might not consider Akainu PK level but many including Oda certainly does.


Old dying WB beat Akainu and he certainly wasn't PK level by his own admission. 
And let me get this straight. 
You think Akainu is PK level(so should be Aokiji too given it was an extreme diff fight). 
But wait Kaido currently is the strongest. So he is also PK level? 
Just how many PK level characters do you think are running around here? 
I like to think Oda will make big deal about it when someone actually reaches to that level. Considering he hasn't I have no reason to believe it. It is just your wishful thinking and bias towards Akainu at the moment. 
There are exactly two characters in entire manga that are going to enter PK level territory. Luffy and Blackbeard. Not everybody has that potential. It is extremely rare. 
Best thing Akainu should hope is old WB level. 
So on topic due to all plot related reasons and in general portrayal of Shanks he wins with High diff.


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## Santoryu (Jun 22, 2019)

Quite one sided.

We already seen a pensioned-aged, out of prime, rusty, and idle Rayleigh stalemate Kizaru and later spare his life.
Shanks clears convincingly as per authorial intent.


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## Sherlōck (Jun 22, 2019)

Amol said:


> Old dying WB beat Akainu and he certainly wasn't PK level by his own admission.



Yeah, he beat him. WB beat Akainu so hard that almost lost another "son" to the same guy few moments later. 



Amol said:


> And let me get this straight.
> 
> You think Akainu is PK level(so should be Aokiji too given it was an extreme diff fight).
> 
> ...



Currently there are two, in future there will be four (assuming Kaido remains alive). It's not that hard to comprehended considering Roger's era had three. 



Amol said:


> I *like* to think Oda will make big deal about it when someone actually reaches to that level. Considering he hasn't I have no reason to believe it.



Who is basing his argument based on his wishful thinking again?   



Amol said:


> There are exactly two characters in entire manga that are going to enter PK level territory. Luffy and Blackbeard. Not everybody has that potential. It is extremely rare.



So is COtC yet plenty people has it. And four out billions does make it rare.    



> Best thing Akainu should hope is old WB level.



Now who is biased against Akainu?


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## Kasai Kingu (Jun 22, 2019)

I don't remember where but it was stated that Shanks was stroung enough to easly fight against an Admiral......In a vivre card or something....


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## Amol (Jun 22, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Yeah, he beat him. WB beat Akainu so hard that almost lost another "son" to the same guy few moments later.


Please tell me we are not going to argue semantics here?
Akainu got knocked out. That is a win for WB.




> Currently there are two, in future there will be four (assuming Kaido remains alive). It's not that hard to comprehended considering Roger's era had three.


That is all nice and dandy but evidence less. You are now just randomly claiming people to be on PK level because you want them to be. That is all there is.




> Who is basing his argument based on his wishful thinking again?


What??
This is weird rebuttal.
This entire manga is about people trying to reach to that PK level. Of course it would be a big deal when someone actually reaches there.
What are you even arguing here?




> So is COtC yet plenty people has it. And four out billions does make it rare.


You should look up to logical fallacy called False Equivalency.
Because clearly CoC has same meaning or importance as Pirate King.




> Now who is biased against Akainu?


Burden of proof lies on you mate not me. I am not the one who is making outlandish claims here. That is you. You want us to believe that Akainu who was weaker than dying sick WB suddenly went to PK level for apparently no reason. Even Luffy needs MC title and Blackbeard needs 2(maybe 3) overpowered DFs for that. I am on the other hand Is  basically saying Akainu stays where he was unless we get explicit reason to believe otherwise. My bias is very clear here.
So please this 'no you!' argument doesn't hold water. You are very clearly biased towards Admirals and giving them hype and portyal they never had. I just don't think you get what being PK is. Contrary to what you think being on PK level is kind of huge deal. It is just our MC's dream after all.


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## Beast (Jun 22, 2019)

If Kizaru vs WB is anything to go on... Kizaru> Shanks.

But I think shanks would edge it out


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## Sherlōck (Jun 22, 2019)

Amol said:


> Please tell me we are not going to argue semantics here?
> 
> Akainu got knocked out. That is a win for WB.



We are not. 

Cause Akainu wasn't knocked out. If he was he would have died by falling into the sea. He isn't Meme.



> What?? This is weird rebuttal.
> 
> This entire manga is about people trying to reach to that PK level. Of course it would be a big deal when someone actually reaches there.
> 
> What are you even arguing here?



You mean when someone reaches Raftel? People didn't say Roger is PK because he is WSM. They started calling it after he reached Raftel. Hell, his two rival WB and Garp was alive and kicking. More that WB had the WSM title that time. Meme claimed if she had Elbaf's support then she would become PK.

Of course it would be a big deal when someone becomes PK. But being PK level character and becoming PK are actually two different things. You can be PK level character without being PK.

You are romanticizing something that you want to happen the way you want to be. Not something necessarily likely to happen based on history.



> You should look up to logical fallacy called False Equivalency. Because clearly CoC has same meaning or importance as Pirate King.



You mean the thing everyone shits their pants after learning someone has it? Yeah. 



> Burden of proof lies on you mate not me. I am not the one who is making outlandish claims here. That is you. You want us to believe that Akainu who was weaker than dying sick WB suddenly went to PK level for apparently no reason. Even Luffy needs MC title and Blackbeard needs 2(maybe 3) overpowered DFs for that. I am on the other hand Is  basically saying Akainu stays where he was unless we get explicit reason to believe otherwise.



Weaker that dying sick WB? 

Literally every confrontation Admirals had with WB they had the upper hand or stalemated. And that's taking into account they were trying to not destroy MF. The only time WB gained advantage was when he sneak attacked Akainu. 

You mean fighting against WB and entire WB pirates and later on being the *only person* in the manga who has a *confirmed win against another top tier*? 

Not everyone needs something special to reach PK level. What we know so far Garp didn't need a DF. Blackbeard might need 3 DF but that's BB's own shortcoming not anyone else's. 



> My bias is very clear here.
> 
> So please this 'no you!' argument doesn't hold water. You are very clearly biased towards Admirals and giving them hype and portyal they never had. I just don't think you get what being PK is. Contrary to what you think being on PK level is kind of huge deal. It is just our MC's dream after all.



As you said your bias is very clear. 

But claiming Yonko ~ Admiral has no bias involved. I have no bias favoring Admirals cause in PK level character list I put three pirate and only one marine. 

Admirals have the best feats in the manga. They are clearly not afraid to confront two Yonko as we have seen Kizaru offered to do. We have Oda saying Akainu would become PK in one year and Aokiji gave him an extreme difficulty fight over 10 days and scarred him permanently something that enraged WSM failed to do. 

I know you are jumping at joy that Meme took out Queen this chapter. But I will take Akainu vaporizing half of WSM's face over beating Queen any day of the week.


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## Red Admiral (Jun 22, 2019)

Shanks is in the lone of kings and freest man 

in a story about pirate king and being freest man 

and lived up to the hype needed for the plot armor 


this thread was more interesting if it was about Ben Vs Kizaru ...

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## Topi Jerami (Jun 23, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> this thread was more interesting if it was about Ben Vs Kizaru ...


Well, it's exactly the same anyway, whether it's Ben vs Kizaru or Shanks vs Kizaru.
Ben = Shanks (proven in VC) as I told you

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## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2019)

Topi Jerami said:


> Well, it's exactly the same anyway, whether it's Ben vs Kizaru or Shanks vs Kizaru.
> Ben = Shanks (proven in VC) as I told you



don't make me start an ignore list Topi ...


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## Major Lee Hung (Jun 23, 2019)

Shanks lost his arm to a fish and got defeated by base Teach while openly admitting that he wasn’t being careless.

Shanks is Beckmann Level which optimistically makes him First Mate level

He is nowhere near Kizaru level, who trolled Whitebeard himself who is > Shanks


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## Gianfi (Jun 23, 2019)

Shanks high diff

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## Red Admiral (Jun 27, 2019)

Amol said:


> What you are saying actually supports my argument.
> Shanks has to have very very powerful even by Yonkou standards if beating him places you on PK level.
> There are multiple examples of one Top tier beating another Top tier but we don't consider them PK level.
> So yeah Shanks has extreme hype and portyal and there is no way in hell he loses. He has too much of plot importance for that.



I guess right now Wano is a hype for any Haki master as well ... since we get to know haki limits are far above what we assumed it would be

Shanks is a man not a monster and have no DF but he have/most likely have

Top Tier Swordsmanship
Top Tier Base CoA
Top Tier Advance CoA
Top Tier base CoO
Top Tier Advance CoO
Top Tier base CoC
Top Tier Advance CoC
and he might be the only one alive with advance CoC


in some many cases if some one don't have some type of powers ... like advance CoO or advance CoA

they won't even stand a chance to fight Shanks cause you can't keep up with Shanks speed or can't defend his attacks

and we don't even know what the hell is advance CoC

we just know this is a power that it's potential can bring fear in to top tiers eyes!!!!


 now Kizaru is even a better match up for Shanks than rest of admirals since his speed is the best

but the fight can't end in anything more than a high diff win for Shanks


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## LolonoisZolo (Jun 27, 2019)

It could go extreme diff either way.
Kizaru's speed is not absolute as shown with Rayleigh keeping up, and I think Shanks is around prime Rayleigh level.
The admirals on top of mastering all rokushiki techs, have prolly mastered both Coo/Coa and possibly Coc and have a hax mastered DF.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jun 28, 2019)

Shanks in all scenarios.

That being said, Kizaru is FAR stronger than the fandom believes he is. He is the Zoro to Akainu.

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## Red Admiral (Jun 28, 2019)

LolonoisZolo said:


> It could go extreme diff either way.
> Kizaru's speed is not absolute as shown with Rayleigh keeping up, and I think Shanks is around prime Rayleigh level.
> The admirals on top of mastering all rokushiki techs, have prolly mastered both Coo/Coa and possibly Coc and have a hax mastered DF.



I don't think admirals Haki be on mastery level

it one thing to be able to use advance Haki ... even high tier and lower can do that ...

it one thing to be master of it

Admirals would be far too powerful if they have full mastery of 2 Haki ..

*in fact in CANON Big Mom showed us better advance CoA than admirals 

and I don't think she be that close to likes of Shanks in any Haki*


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## YellowCosmos (Jun 28, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> in fact in CANON Big Mom showed us better advance CoA than admirals



The Admirals together created a haki barrier larger than the execution scaffold in Marineford which negated one of Whitebeard's attacks. Big Mom has yet to use any of the advanced forms of CoA and her best feat with hardening is blocking G4 Luffy.

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## Red Admiral (Jun 28, 2019)

YellowCosmos said:


> The Admirals together created a haki barrier larger than the execution scaffold in Marineford which negated one of Whitebeard's attacks. Big Mom has yet to use any of the advanced forms of CoA and her best feat with hardening is blocking G4 Luffy.



if this is not advance CoA ... than what is this 

no admiral yet showed us this aura

p.s

*Major disagree with manga ... LOL....*

no news over here


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## Kinjin (Jun 28, 2019)

*Don't bring up points from the newest chapter outside the OP telegrams.*


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## Red Admiral (Jun 28, 2019)

Kinjin said:


> *Don't bring up points from the newest chapter outside the OP telegrams.*



hmmm .... for how long it count as spoiler ?


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## Kinjin (Jun 28, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> hmmm .... for how long it count as spoiler ?


Until Sunday when the threads from the telegrams get moved to the Ohara Library.

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## Tenma (Jun 30, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> I don't think admirals Haki be on mastery level
> 
> it one thing to be able to use advance Haki ... even high tier and lower can do that ...
> 
> ...



Not that I don't think Shanks is stronger than Kizaru (he clearly is without having to downplay the admirals' skills), but 'admirals haven't mastered haki because that would make them stronger than I want them to be' is a pretty goofy argument.

Especially when you go on to say you have no problem with BM having mastered haki though that should make her 'far too powerful' as well, based off an ambiguous panel which in any case didn't demonstrate any of the properties of advanced haki. Some argue it was energy drain or w/e but either way that's not what advanced Ryou does.

Kizaru fought on par with Rayleigh who mastered CoA, CoO and probably CoC...don't see why he wouldn't have mastery also.


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## Fel1x (Jul 1, 2019)

If in MF there was Shanks' crew instead WB's, Kizaru would fight Roo. 2 fastest men alive!


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## Hades92 (Jul 1, 2019)

Shanks _*mid high diffs*_ Kizaru


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## Quipchaque (Jul 1, 2019)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Shanks in all scenarios.
> 
> That being said, Kizaru is FAR stronger than the fandom believes he is. He is the Zoro to Akainu.



No he is not. Kizaru is depicted as Sanji's counterpart. Dumb vs smart, speed vs observation haki, kicker vs kicker. Aokiji was the Zoro to Akainu.


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## Fel1x (Jul 1, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No he is not. Kizaru is depicted as Sanji's counterpart. Dumb vs smart, speed vs observation haki, kicker vs kicker. Aokiji was the Zoro to Akainu.


they are both speedsters now. Sanji had a great speed feat in WCI


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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Tenma said:


> Kizaru fought on par with Rayleigh who mastered CoA, CoO and probably CoC...don't see why he wouldn't have mastery also.



dude you know Dark King said himself that his age is letting him down

Dark King didn't use advance Haki in his fight Vs Kizaru ... at least we know he didn't use 2 of them in worst case .. and we know as a fact Haki would get weaker by age for normal humans

and

Dark King didn't used any named sword skill related attack ...


so if you consider Old Rayleigh equal to Kizaru

Shanks is CLEARLY above that since he is a full master of all 3 Haki and unlike Old Dark King can use it way more and a Master swordsman and he have all of this powers to add to what Dark King did + better endurance and stamina


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## Tenma (Jul 1, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> dude you know Dark King said himself that his age is letting him down
> 
> Dark King didn't use advance Haki in his fight Vs Kizaru ... at least we know he didn't use 2 of them in worst case .. and we know as a fact Haki would get weaker by age for normal humans
> 
> ...



We already know Rayleigh mastered CoA and CoO (no reason why he would 'unmaster' it with age), he's the _only_ character we _know_ has both, though we can conjecture yonko and admirals do as well. We didn't see much of Kizaru vs Ray and we know Ray used advanced haki in Sabaody, Oda just didn't show it in the actual arc 

Whether Shanks is better or not is irrelevant. As I said, Shanks is stronger than Kizaru, but there's no need to downplay Kizaru's skills or imply he is somehow deficient haki wise for that to be the case.

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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Again, Vivre Card confirms Shanks as First Mate level, nowhere near Kizaru Level. This was actually stated by Oda. There is no debate to be had here, Kizaru is much stronger than Shanks.

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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Tenma said:


> We already know Rayleigh mastered CoA and CoO (no reason why he would 'unmaster' it with age), he's the _only_ character we _know_ has both, though we can conjecture yonko and admirals do as well. We didn't see much of Kizaru vs Ray and we know Ray used advanced haki in Sabaody, Oda just didn't show it in the actual arc
> 
> Whether Shanks is better or not is irrelevant. As I said, Shanks is stronger than Kizaru, but there's no need to downplay Kizaru's skills or imply he is somehow deficient haki wise for that to be the case.



well I have to disagree ... even in 2 years ago Oda did showed us advance Haki in color ... so if Dark King was using advacne we would know

dark King only could use CoC 3 times in the row ... as he said himself ... he didn't unmastred it but now he can use it to a certain limit 

now not at all Shanks Vs Kizaru for me is even a harder fight than Shanks Vs Akainu cause I assume Shanks speed would be at least on same level of Dark King if not more but that speed can't give him any major advantage in fight Vs Kizaru 


but Shanks win is a sure thing for me ... since there is no limit to advance CoC we can't even know how strong is Shanks

but if he can be a legendary fighter by age 20 is , a Yonko by age 22 , 23 and legend among men in eyes of Oda himself ... I have more thing to expect form him than I have from Kizaru


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## Beast (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Again, Vivre Card confirms Shanks as First Mate level, nowhere near Kizaru Level. This was actually stated by Oda. There is no debate to be had here, Kizaru is much stronger than Shanks.


Or or or Ben Beckmann is a top tier.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Again, Vivre Card confirms Shanks as First Mate level, nowhere near Kizaru Level. This was actually stated by Oda. There is no debate to be had here, Kizaru is much stronger than Shanks.



FM is not a level is a rank

Prime Dark King is a First mate 
Prime Zoro is a first mate

and both of them are clearly above Akainu


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Or or or Ben Beckmann is a top tier.



No first mate is top tier lol. Especially not when his captain is the only crippled supposed top tier (really a high tier) who lost a fight to a YC2

Reactions: Like 1


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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> No first mate is top tier lol. Especially not when his captain is the only crippled top tier who lost a fight to a YC2



Oda : Ben beckman is a man of great power and wisdom 
Data book : even strongest Pirate fear his mere existence 
manga : Hold it there Kizaru


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## Beast (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> No first mate is top tier lol. Especially not when his captain is the only crippled top tier who lost a fight to a YC2



I know who the crippled top tier is but who is the yc2?


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> I know who the crippled top tier is but who is the yc2?



Base Teach ofc. He scarred Shanks on the face while Shanks openly admitted he was not being careless.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 1, 2019)

Fel1x said:


> they are both speedsters now. Sanji had a great speed feat in WCI



Yeah but I mean specialty-wise and what they have over each other.


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## Beast (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Base Teach ofc. He scarred Shanks on the face while Shanks openly admitted he was not being careless.


Base Teach is equal to Snack.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Base Teach ofc. He scarred Shanks on the face while Shanks openly admitted he was not being careless.



Yet that same Teach runs away from Shanks after gaining massive boosts from the fruits. Troll some more.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Base Teach ofc. He scarred Shanks on the face while Shanks openly admitted he was not being careless.



judging a scar with zero info about it

same old Major 
same old BS


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## Tenma (Jul 1, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> well I have to disagree ... even in 2 years ago Oda did showed us advance Haki in color ... so if Dark King was using advacne we would know
> 
> dark King only could use CoC 3 times in the row ... as he said himself ... he didn't unmastred it but now he can use it to a certain limit
> 
> ...



Rayleigh never said he could only use Haki 3 times, where did you get that from? Again, Rayleigh used advanced haki when removing Camie's collar but Oda only showed it 400 chapters later.  He's the only character we know has both- we can only conjecture for Shanks and other characters. Also, Oda doesn't color the colored manga.

Like I said, Shanks being stronger than Kizaru doesn't mean Kizaru can't be a haki master himself, so beats me why you are trying to prove to me Shanks>Kizaru or Ray when that's not what I'm arguing for.


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Base Teach is equal to Snack.



You’d better hope not, or else Prime shanks was < YC4 lol



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yet that same Teach runs away from Shanks after gaining massive boosts from the fruits. Troll some more.



No, Blackbeard ran away from the Red Hairred Pirates. 

His exact words were: 

“*We* are not ready to fight *you guys *yet.”

After Burgess’ display in DR, it should be clear that the RHP >>> the BBP at the moment. 

But Teach has already given defeated Shanks and given him PTSD in the past.


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## Hades92 (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Again, Vivre Card confirms Shanks as First Mate level, nowhere near Kizaru Level. This was actually stated by Oda. There is no debate to be had here, Kizaru is much stronger than Shanks.


Vivre card confirms shit....Vivre card said "Sabo is dead" and manga has shown otherwise....



Major Lee Hung said:


> “*We* are not ready to fight *you guys *yet.”


and yet he is ready to destroy MF before Shanks appeared


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## Beast (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> You’d better hope not, or else Prime shanks was < YC4 lol.


Just as that wasn’t a prime BB, that wasn’t a prime Shanks either.


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> Vivre card confirms shit....Vivre card said "Sabo is dead" and manga has shown otherwise....



Sabo WAS dead for a time until Oda revealed otherwise. 

Shanks has never been proven to be above Beckman. In fact they’ve been portrayed as equals a few times. 

How much more needs to be said until people accept that Shanks = FM level? Oda has said it himself and shown it in his manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Topi Jerami (Jul 1, 2019)

Kizaru will turn Shanks into a beehive.

Last time Admiral tier goes against YC1, the YC1 got destroyed.
So yes, Kizaru destroyed Shanks / Beckman like Kaido destroyed Lulffy.


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Just as that wasn’t a prime BB, that wasn’t a prime Shanks either.



That was prime shanks actually. Shanks lost a lot of power when he lost his arm. 

That’s the whole point of him making a *sacrifice* for Luffy.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Tenma said:


> Rayleigh never said he could only use Haki 3 times, where did you get that from? Again, Rayleigh used advanced haki when removing Camie's collar but Oda only showed it 400 chapters later.  He's the only character we know has both- we can only conjecture for Shanks and other characters. Also, Oda doesn't color the colored manga.
> 
> Like I said, Shanks being stronger than Kizaru doesn't mean Kizaru can't be a haki master himself, so beats me why you are trying to prove to me Shanks>Kizaru or Ray when that's not what I'm arguing for.



after he used CoC and said I can't do that ... read the first meeting of Dark King 

+

no ... Dark King showed us advance Haki in color WHEN Dark King was talking about the haki

his hand was full with ryu that moment

read it again if you want

+

cause Kizaru is a Top Tier thanks to his DF
Shanks is a Top tier thanks to his Haki


Kizaru can have LEGIT Haki 

but for me there is no living or dead man who can be a master of a Top Tier DF and 3 Haki ... this is just a bug ... too much power for one man


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## Hades92 (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Sabo WAS dead for a time until Oda revealed otherwise.


exactly...until Oda shows don't make it as a fact...



Major Lee Hung said:


> Shanks has never been proven to be above Beckman. In fact they’ve been portrayed as equals a few times.


why he has to prove...Shanks is a Yonko and a captain of RHP whereas Beckman is a subordinate...they have never portrayed as equals anywhere in manga..or you say Akainu=Kizaru=Aokiji=Fujitora=Greenbull because it seems from manga they were portrayed equals....



Major Lee Hung said:


> How much more needs to be said until people accept that Shanks = FM level? Oda has said it himself and shown it in his manga.


Oda hasn't shown anything....


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## Topi Jerami (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee with the truth bombs.

How come it's 2019 and so many people still wanking Shanks into oblivion?
If anything, the 1 very strong is his sword, Gryphon, not the user the crippled emperror.

> Shanks with Gryphon blocking Akainu's attack towards fodder Coby:  successfully blocked the attack without dying or losing any limb

> Shanks without Gryphon trying to block Lord of the Coast, an East Blue fish attack: losing his arm completely.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> why he has to prove...Shanks is a Yonko and a captain of RHP whereas Beckman is a subordinate...they have never portrayed as equals anywhere in manga..or you say Akainu=Kizaru=Aokiji=Fujitora=Greenbull because it seems from manga they were portrayed equals....



Marco (a first mate) was a Yonko candidate. You don’t have to be top tier to be a Yonko lol. Marco could’ve been one and so could Beckman.

Yonko are not all top tiers. Only Kaido (debatably) and Blackbeard.

But you DO have to be top tier to be an Admiral seeing as how the marines measure the strength of their Admirals.


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## Topi Jerami (Jul 1, 2019)

Would be more interesting if it's Sentomaru vs Shanks.

Sentomaru with invisible CoA and toughest defense hype
Shanks with Gryphon hype and haki that can destroy woods.


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

List of confirmed high tiers who could’ve been Yonko:

Marco 
Beckmann
Katakuri 
Big Mom

Being a top tier is not a requirement to be a Yonko. Kaido took 7 Ls and Kuri took 1.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tenma (Jul 1, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> after he used CoC and said I can't do that ... read the first meeting of Dark King
> 
> +
> 
> ...



I literally just reread it and he says nothing to that effect.

We see him use it on the elephant (the same form we see Kizaru use in Marineford) but Oda chose not to show when he used the actual advanced form of Haki in Camie's collar (which also appears less flashy in general).

Kizaru only has 2 forms of Haki though, he definitely doesn't have Conqueror's.


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Tenma said:


> Kizaru only has 2 forms of Haki though, he definitely doesn't have Conqueror's.



1. Conqueror’s is irrelevant in fights 

2. I will tell you as someone who argued that Katakuri would have CoC, when every other fan said he would not:

Every Admiral has Conqueror’s Haki. Lol


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## Sherlōck (Jul 1, 2019)

Tenma said:


> Kizaru only has 2 forms of Haki though, he *definitely doesn't *have Conqueror's.



When Oda is giving everyone and their mother (literally) COC saying top tiers from marine side *definitely *won't have COC is a pretty big claim.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Again, Vivre Card confirms Shanks as First Mate level, nowhere near Kizaru Level. This was actually stated by Oda. There is no debate to be had here, Kizaru is much stronger than Shanks.


Shanks blocked Akainu´s magmafist pretty easy

FM level Akainu


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Shanks blocked Akainu´s magmafist pretty easy
> 
> FM level Akainu



That attack was meant for Coby lol.


Frankly, if Shanks needs Gryphon to stop that attack, Akainu wouldn’t even need Haki to defeat him.


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## Hades92 (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Only Kaido (debatably)


???...World's strongest creature (WSC) > anyone in One Piece world...and you say Kaido debatably is a top tier??



Major Lee Hung said:


> if Shanks needs Gryphon to stop that attack, Akainu wouldn’t even need Haki to defeat him.


you are saying like Akainu needed magma punch instead of normal punch to defeat fear struck Coby


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> ???...World's strongest creature (WSC) > anyone in One Piece world...and you say Kaido debatably is a top tier??



Who told you WSC was the strongest? Lmfao, Kaido has suffered more confirmed defeats than even Shanks. He has a massive gaping scar on his abdomen likely given by Oden or Ryuma who are scrubs.

Admirals didn’t have scars until they fought other Admirals lmfso.

Kaido is not the strongest lol. Not even close.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Tenma said:


> but Oda chose not to show when he used the actual advanced form of Haki in Camie's collar



well ... I guess this is Ryu in flash and bones 



p.s

your claim is only true of Advance CoC be >= a Top tier DF


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> you are saying like Akainu needed magma punch instead of normal punch to defeat fear struck Coby



Now you’re just trolling lmfao. 

If Shanks = Akainu fodder attacks 

Then full power Akainu would defeat Shanks in minutes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Red Admiral (Jul 1, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> you are saying like Akainu needed magma punch instead of normal punch to defeat fear struck Coby


my advise ... don't take any joke too seriously ... the joke we take it as if it's really funny 


the fact he is not longer the same old fighter for admiral fan base

and now is just a troll

prove he know he lost the fight but since he don't want to admit he was wrong he taking his jokes to next level

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hades92 (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> Who told you WSC was the strongest? Lmfao, Kaido has suffered more confirmed defeats than even Shanks. He has a massive gaping scar on his abdomen likely given by Oden or Ryuma who are scrubs.
> 
> Admirals didn’t have scars until they fought other Admirals lmfso.
> 
> Kaido is not the strongest lol. Not even close.


Oda's words >>> your head canon....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> Oda's words >>> your head canon....



I agree.

“Shanks is equal to a first mate.”-Oda

“Kaido has suffered more Ls than any top tier.”-Oda

Glad we can agree that Oda’s words are most important.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hades92 (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> “Shanks is equal to a first mate.”-Oda


it is opposite...his first mate rivals him (if we take VC as credible source)...not the other way around....



Major Lee Hung said:


> “Kaido has suffered more Ls than any top tier.”


doesn't change his present status....he is present *"strongest character"* backed by title box introduction...past L's doesn't matter to present condition...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Hades92 said:


> it is opposite...his first mate rivals him (if we take VC as credible source)...not the other way around....



Semantics. First Mates are very powerful. It’s a very hype thing to state Shanks = first mate. It’s just that Kizaru is much stronger than that. 



Hades92 said:


> doesn't change his present status....he is present *"strongest character"* backed by title box introduction...past L's doesn't matter to present condition...



Nowhere has Kaido been called the strongest in this manga. He is stronger than every creature yes. But he is not the strongest character. 

Whitebeard was stronger than Kaido and the Admirals all embarrassed Whitebeard.


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## Steven (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> That attack was meant for Coby lol.
> 
> 
> Frankly, if Shanks needs Gryphon to stop that attack, Akainu wouldn’t even need Haki to defeat him.


What is tha for a list?

The list just shows me which attack has more AoE


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> What is tha for a list?
> 
> The list just shows me which attack has more AoE



No, it shows you which attacks have more power. 

Just like Gomu Gomu no Giganto Pistol >>>>>>> Gomu Gomu no Pistol

Daifunka and Meteor Volcano >>>>>> Akainu’s attack that Shanks blocked. Lol


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jul 1, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No he is not. Kizaru is depicted as Sanji's counterpart. Dumb vs smart, speed vs observation haki, kicker vs kicker. Aokiji was the Zoro to Akainu.


I disagree. The moment between Kizaru, Rayleigh and Zoro told me that he was going to be Zoro’s admiral opponent.

The cover with Kizaru and Akainu hanging together also led me to believe that.

I guess I could be wrong, but we’ll see.


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## Beast (Jul 1, 2019)

Major Lee Hung said:


> That was prime shanks actually. Shanks lost a lot of power when he lost his arm.
> 
> That’s the whole point of him making a *sacrifice* for Luffy.


So, tell me when did BB give him the scar? 
Before he became a Yonko right? 

Couldn’t have been after because why would Yonko shanks come on WBs ship and start fighting BB? 

Now pre Yonko Shanks is buggys rival and not at prime level.


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## Geralt-Singh (Jul 1, 2019)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> I disagree. The moment between Kizaru, Rayleigh and Zoro told me that he was going to be Zoro’s admiral opponent.
> 
> The cover with Kizaru and Akainu hanging together also led me to believe that.
> 
> I guess I could be wrong, but we’ll see.



Add the fact that he interacted with 2 others FM (Marco / Beckman) and is a master swordsman

Zoro AND Sanji might fight him at EoS, regardless of powerlevels it would be dope


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## Sherlōck (Jul 1, 2019)

I don't see Sanji being top tier at EoS.

At best he will be old Rayleigh level (Top tier >> Sanji >> YFM ). I see him joining hands with Jinbe to fight an Admiral.

Also, yeah I see Zoro fighting Kizaru during the final war. And it’s possible that Fujitora won’t even fight for the WG during the final war.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Major Lee Hung (Jul 1, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> So, tell me when did BB give him the scar?
> Before he became a Yonko right?
> 
> Couldn’t have been after because why would Yonko shanks come on WBs ship and start fighting BB?
> ...



Who said Teach scared him on Whitebeard’s ship? That’s a detail that’s never been specified. 

All we know is that YC2 Teach scarred prime Shanks. We don’t know when or where but we do know Shanks openly admitted that he wasn’t being careless.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 1, 2019)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> I disagree. The moment between Kizaru, Rayleigh and Zoro told me that he was going to be Zoro’s admiral opponent.
> 
> The cover with Kizaru and Akainu hanging together also led me to believe that.
> 
> I guess I could be wrong, but we’ll see.



So assuming Zoro would fight Kizaru. What about Sanji? There is Noone who is being depicted more closely as a rival to him than Kizaru. If Zoro would fight an admiral it is clearly Fujitora. (I don't think he will fight either though.)


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 1, 2019)

Fujitora will be fought before the final war. He needs Luffy and Law’s head


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jul 1, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> So assuming Zoro would fight Kizaru. What about Sanji? There is Noone who is being depicted more closely as a rival to him than Kizaru. If Zoro would fight an admiral it is clearly Fujitora. (I don't think he will fight either though.)


Maybe Green Bull. He seems to like women in a similar manner to Sanji.


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## Shishio ishere (Jul 10, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> So assuming Zoro would fight Kizaru. What about Sanji? There is Noone who is being depicted more closely as a rival to him than Kizaru. If Zoro would fight an admiral it is clearly Fujitora. (I don't think he will fight either though.)


Why does Sanji have to fight a major opponent in final war? In Skypea Zoro fought strongest priest, Sanji tag teamed weakest priest. In Fishman Island he tag teamed an opponent, in Punk Hazard he didn't even have an opponent. He didn't have a solo fight in Dressrosa either.

The base case scenario I can see for Sanji is Sanji+Jinbei vs Green Bull, Zoro vs Kizaru and Luffy vs Akainu. 
Otherwise Sanji will probably face some hyped up Vice Admiral like Tokikake or Gion who are admiral candidates. He might even fight old garp in kicks vs fists fight I guess. But he is definitely no soloing an admiral.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 11, 2019)

Shishio ishere said:


> Why does Sanji have to fight a major opponent in final war? In Skypea Zoro fought strongest priest, Sanji tag teamed weakest priest. In Fishman Island he tag teamed an opponent, in Punk Hazard he didn't even have an opponent. He didn't have a solo fight in Dressrosa either.
> 
> The base case scenario I can see for Sanji is Sanji+Jinbei vs Green Bull, Zoro vs Kizaru and Luffy vs Akainu.
> Otherwise Sanji will probably face some hyped up Vice Admiral like Tokikake or Gion who are admiral candidates. He might even fight old garp in kicks vs fists fight I guess. But he is definitely no soloing an admiral.



Because Oda won't finish one of the highlight arcs of the whole 1000+ chapter story with Sanji-disrespect and his concept was 99% of the time strongest fights strongest, second strongest fights second strongest etc. And the third strongest is 99% probable to be an admiral in the marines which means Sanji is going to fight an admiral.


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## stealthblack (Jul 11, 2019)

Gonna give it to shanks extreme diff for now. But this could last 10 days.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

why we have a Shanks Vs Kizaru but not a Shanks Vs Akainu Thread ?

I can't create that since any thing I do about Shanks is a "fanboy act"


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## Sherlōck (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> why we have a Shanks Vs Kizaru but not a Shanks Vs Akainu Thread ?



Cause Akainu beats Shanks. With Kizaru it's 50-50 chance.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Jul 11, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Also, yeah I see Zoro fighting Kizaru during the final war. And it’s possible that Fujitora won’t even fight for the WG during the final war.



Or Zoro will fight GB after GB takes out Mihawk.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Cause Akainu beats Shanks. With Kizaru it's 50-50 chance.



create the thread and meet me there


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## Sherlōck (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> create the thread and meet me there



Not interested. We did this dance on OJ before anyway.

BTW, here is the thread.


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## Edogawa (Jul 11, 2019)

Shanks is featless, and even if we scale him to Whitebeard, whom Kizaru defeated in their brief confornation, he would lose.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> Shanks is featless, and even if we scale him to Whitebeard, whom Kizaru defeated in their brief confornation, he would lose.


a major character with deep role to play in story would be weaker than one of admiral with no real value to plot

sure ... Oda would do that

p.s

well done ... 3 big BS in one post ... indeed a top tier feat for you


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## Edogawa (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> a major character with deep role to play in story would be weaker than one of admiral with no real value to plot
> 
> sure ... Oda would do that
> 
> ...



Kid, in Vs battle forum we discuss feats, which Shanks has zero of it.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> Kid, in Vs battle forum we discuss feats, which Shanks has zero of it.


don't dare kid me ... your IQ need to be 20 in order to have that right ...

you know who have less feat than Shanks? Roger ... so I guess Roger < Buggy

since Buggy feat is more than Zero

firstly Shanks have feats and good ones too
2nd in one piece

plot armor/plot
Rank
title
portrayal
hype
achievement
Oda words
Data Book
Novel (canon)

do matter

if your brain can't understand this simple fact ... get out of Vs battle forum and get back in 20 years ... when your brain is as good as a 10 years old

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edogawa (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> don't dare kid me ... your IQ need to be 20 in order to have that right ...
> 
> you know who have less feat than Shanks? Roger ... so I guess Roger < Buggy
> 
> ...



You don't know how to debate.

Roger conquering the Grand Line is a feat, something Yonkos could not do. Roger stalemating Prime Whitebeard in their fights is a feat. Sure, they're all off-panel feats but it doesn't change the fact they're feats since they did happen.

Now let's look at Shanks: His only apparent _feat_ is he used to duel against Mihawk, who is only a Warlord and his brief clash with medically machine tied Whitebeard, who didn't use his DF. 

Let's assume Shanks has comparable feats to Mihawk and Whitebeard on the basis of his Yonko title:

Strength: Mihawk's world strongest slash was stopped by Jozu. Shanks presumably using Haki = Whitebeard without using his DF. Kizaru without using his DF stopped Whitebeard's Gura Gura earthquake with a *single foot*. So strength wise, Kizaru >>> Shanks

Speed: Kizaru is the fastest in the manga because of his DF.

Endurance: Kizaru scales to Aokiji and Akainu, so he's able to fight for 10 days straight. 

Kizaru outclasses Shanks in raw stats.

Attack potency: Whitebeard's best DC feat is splitting the tiny island of Marineford, so Shanks presumably is able to replicate that with his sword attacks. Meanwhile, Kizaru scales to Aokiji and Akainu, he's able to replicate what they did to Punk Hazard, which dwarfs Marineford many times. So attack potency and AoE, Kizaru >>> Shanks.

On top of Shanks's lack of quantifiable feats, he's still below Kizaru in stats and AoE through scaling.

Portrayal doesn't mean shit when you don't have the feats to back it up.


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## Canute87 (Jul 11, 2019)

Goodboy said:


> Just curious...
> How would battle go? How can shanks deal with overpowered devil fruit of kizaru....What can admiral come up with , when fighting against an emperor?



KIzaru's fruit  isn't like Akainu or Kiji;s.  ANd even then both of those guys were able to avoid one shotting each other for ten days.

So if shanks makes a misstep it isn't checkmate


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Canute87 said:


> KIzaru's fruit  isn't like Akainu or Kiji;s.  ANd even then both of those guys were able to avoid one shotting each other for ten days.
> 
> So if shanks makes a misstep it isn't checkmate



Shanks is a legendary fighter ... it's more likely Kizaru make a mistake during fight than Shanks


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## Canute87 (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> Shanks is a legendary fighter ... it's more likely Kizaru make a mistake during fight than Shanks



I know.  It's just that in a realisitc scenario i don't see shanks taking out kizaru without him getting some hits in.

 But his hits don't cripple like kiji and akainu can not without well placed movesets.

All akainu had to do was swipe left on whitebeard like a tinder  profile.


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## Steven (Jul 11, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> I also forgot to add durability as well.* Shanks took scars from a Blackbeard who didn't have DFs at the time*, to which he admitted he was fighting seriously. Meanwhile, Kizaru didn't take a single damage in the MF war or even in his lifetime.


Thats what we call PIS,same shit with the fish and Shanks arm

Shanks´dura is top-tier.N1gga is for a reason a yonkou


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Canute87 said:


> I know.  It's just that in a realisitc scenario i don't see shanks taking out kizaru without him getting some hits in.
> 
> But his hits don't cripple like kiji and akainu can not without well placed movesets.
> 
> All akainu had to do was swipe left on whitebeard like a tinder  profile.


sure ... it's not an easy fight for Shanks ... it's not possible to do it unless with a hard try

but Shanks have the speed and skill to face Kizaru and if you ask me even more deadly attacks that Kizaru have

but Shanks would be injured a lot too ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Flame (Jul 11, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Thats what we call PIS,same shit with the fish and Shanks arm
> 
> Shanks´dura is top-tier.N1gga is for a reason a yonkou


Doesn't really have to be PIS, since we don't know when that happened nor how strong was Shanks at the time. It probably happened in a fight between Roger and WB pirates, at his apprentice days. We haven't seen his face at all in chapter 0. He might have had the scar already.


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 11, 2019)

Should be extreme diff either way imo


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Flame said:


> Doesn't really have to be PIS, since we don't know when that happened nor how strong was Shanks at the time. It probably happened in a fight between Roger and WB pirates, at his apprentice days. We haven't seen his face at all in chapter 0. He might have had the scar already.



the back story of that scar should be deeper than that

I would say Shanks wanted to help Teach to be the next king and for a time they were on really good terms 

until Shanks understand the dark side of Teach ...

Teach was fooling White Beard and his whole crew and the world for his most like , he could fool young Shanks too


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## Sabco (Jul 11, 2019)

Borsalino is already confirmed above Shanks. Borsalino gave no fuck about Beckman who is confirmed to be = Red Snitch :


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Edward Teaches said:


> Borsalino is already confirmed above Shanks. Borsalino gave no fuck about Beckman who is confirmed to be = Red Snitch :



some times I think One Piece fandom can't get any more dumb ... and than there it is


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## Flame (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> the back story of that scar should be deeper than that
> 
> I would say Shanks wanted to help Teach to be the next king and for a time they were on really good terms
> 
> ...


Help him how? 

We don't know anything so it could be possible, just want to know what you mean.


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## Edogawa (Jul 11, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Thats what we call PIS,same shit with the fish and Shanks arm
> 
> Shanks´dura is top-tier.N1gga is for a reason a yonkou



It's not PIS when Shanks himself says he was fighting for real.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Flame said:


> Help him how?
> 
> We don't know anything so it could be possible, just want to know what you mean.



Shanks knew the way to Raftel ever since age 14 ...

if he help any pirate they can reach Raftel in matter of few weeks ... they honestly just need a boat or ship 

and yes ... I think Shanks job in one piece lore is to guard the one piece for the rightful hair

he failed with Teach
but went with Luffy


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 11, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> You don't know how to debate.
> 
> Roger conquering the Grand Line is a feat, something Yonkos could not do. Roger stalemating Prime Whitebeard in their fights is a feat. Sure, they're all off-panel feats but it doesn't change the fact they're feats since they did happen.
> 
> ...



Bad comparison, WB could have been the PK but he did not want to, Roger even offered to tell him how to get to Raftel but he refused, Shanks, a yonko, can be the PK, but he is not interested in it. Yonko just need the poneglyphs to be the PK, they already have sufficient strength.

Addressing the Warlord title like that is absurd, Warlords range from Yonko level + to Buggy level (PK level lol), it is not a set ranking, like the Admiral title is. Mihawk is > one of the admirals, and by extension and scaling, as I said admiral is a strength based rank and fights between Admirals are extreme diff fights, Mihawk is >Admirals, Shanks to this day is his biggest rival and most powerful opponent, so that implies that Shanks is >Fuji, and by extension Admirals, but for now him being stronger than Fuji is certain. 

Marine fodders called that slash the world's strongest, and it was stopped by Jozu because of his fruit, you need to aim to cut jozu to be able to cut him, the same thing happened when Daz stopped one of the slashes, but the next one aimed at him put him down. Do you mean this? 


Gura is not active here, as you can see. The one who stopped a gura quake was Akainu, but he was using his df then. 
Shanks clashed evenly with a WB in much better condition, so I would not be so quick to say Kizaru>Shanks in strength, although it is possible. 

Kizaru was matched in cqc by an old Ray, who had not picked up a sword in 20 years and was inactive, if Ray could match up with Kizaru and keep up with his speed, I am not saying Kizaru is not the fastest, he can be, but the top tiers can match him otherwise he would blitz all of them. Shanks' speed was also praised in MF as well. 

No info on how long Shanks can go, but if high tiers can go on for 5 days, I think it is safe to say that the top tiers can do at least that.

Mihawk's casual slash that left an air slash that then traversed a vast distance cut up lifted and destroyed the pieces of an iceberg created by Aokiji's ice, the feat was island level, and that was a casual Mihawk, Shanks gets scaled to a serious Mihawk who is above island level, when his casual slashes produce an air slash that weakens the more distance it crosses and is still island level. 

Other stats are not mentioned, lethality and haki are more probably Shanks' forte, especially haki as Kizaru seems to be a DF oriented combatant.

Tl;dr Shanks is nigh-featless but Kizaru can get his scaling from Aokiji and Akainu who went all out, so it is not a good idea to compare their stats just like that.

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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Bad comparison, WB could have been the PK but he did not want to, Roger even offered to tell him how to get to Raftel but he refused, Shanks, a yonko, can be the PK, but he is not interested in it. Yonko just need the poneglyphs to be the PK, they already have sufficient strength.
> 
> Addressing the Warlord title like that is absurd, Warlords range from Yonko level + to Buggy level (PK level lol), it is not a set ranking, like the Admiral title is. Mihawk is > one of the admirals. and by extension and scaling, as I said admiral is a strength based rank and fights between Admirals are extreme diff fights, Mihawk is >Admirals, Shanks to this day is his biggest rival and most powerful opponent, so that implies that Shanks is >Fuji, and by extension Admirals, but for now him being stronger than Fuji is certain.
> 
> ...



you know things are wrong so deeply when you and I both call an argument wrong


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> you know things are wrong so deeply when you and I both call an argument wrong


Not really though, we do not disagree that much, I still have Shanks very high, top 4 certainly, maybe even top 3, I just have Mihawk edging him out.

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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Not really though, we do not disagree that much, I still have Shanks very high, top 4 certainly, maybe even top 3, I just have Mihawk edging him out.



I have Mihawk at top 5 and closest to Yonko level ... an insult to Mihawk is an insult to Shanks and the other way around  ... and if you see things like that I'm really fine

in fact I'm OK as long as Shanks be on top 5 .... he is indeed not active for now

but the part about agreement was about dumb shit some people use as argument

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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> I have Mihawk at top 5 and closest to Yonko level ... an insult to Mihawk is an insult to Shanks and the other way around  ... and if you see things like that I'm really fine
> 
> in fact I'm OK as long as Shanks be on top 5 .... he is indeed not active for now
> 
> but the part about agreement was about dumb shit some people use as argument


And that is fine with me, I am more against those people that say Mihawk is low top tier or even high tier, top 5 is excellent. I agree about the insults as well, people downplay them because deep down they know they are going to be >their faves.

I agree here as well, both of them lack feats for now, but there are some hints and clues from which we can infer how strong they should be.

Once again I agree, the argument had flaws in it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Steven (Jul 11, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> It's not PIS when Shanks himself says he was fighting for real.


So,you think Pre-Yami BB>Shanks?


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> So,you think Pre-Yami BB>Shanks?



I saw people who think Doffy can beat all Yonko in a 1 Vs 4 ... 

and think current Luffy > Kaido even now ... 

we should not care when the nonsense is too big


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## LolonoisZolo (Jul 11, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> I saw people who think Doffy can beat all Yonko in a 1 Vs 4 ...
> 
> and think current Luffy > Kaido even now ...
> 
> we should not care when the nonsense is too big


This is outright craziness wtf lol


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## Red Admiral (Jul 11, 2019)

LolonoisZolo said:


> This is outright craziness wtf lol


I know ... I saw 300 people me included can't change that guy mind ...

so ya ... I saw the darkest hours ... my stamina for BS is Kaido level

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Jul 11, 2019)

Shanks wins high difficulty.


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## Sengoku (Jul 11, 2019)

Shanks probably edges out Kizaru. But it could go either way. It's a shame because Kizaru's fruit has the most potential imo. If this was a fight between Sakazuki and Shanks then it would be a different story.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MYJC (Jul 11, 2019)

Shanks is too lacking in feats for OBD matches IMO, but if I have to choose I'll go with him high diff, mainly due to hype.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Jul 12, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> I saw people who think Doffy can beat all Yonko in a 1 Vs 4 ...
> 
> and think current Luffy > Kaido even now ...
> 
> we should not care when the nonsense is too big


Was it SanjiKun?


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## Red Admiral (Jul 12, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Was it SanjiKun?


no ... you don't know him but he was on OJ for a short time 

saying Garp can one shot Kaido


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## Steven (Jul 12, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> no ... you don't know him but he was on OJ for a short time
> 
> saying Garp can one shot Kaido


Lol


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## Edogawa (Jul 12, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Bad comparison, WB could have been the PK but he did not want to, Roger even offered to tell him how to get to Raftel but he refused, Shanks, a yonko, can be the PK, but he is not interested in it. Yonko just need the poneglyphs to be the PK, they already have sufficient strength.



All of this is speculation, but that's another topic.
​


Light D Lamperouge said:


> Addressing the Warlord title like that is absurd, Warlords range from Yonko level + to Buggy level (PK level lol), it is not a set ranking, like the Admiral title is. Mihawk is > one of the admirals, and by extension and scaling, as I said admiral is a strength based rank and fights between Admirals are extreme diff fights, Mihawk is >Admirals, Shanks to this day is his biggest rival and most powerful opponent, so that implies that Shanks is >Fuji, and by extension Admirals, but for now him being stronger than Fuji is certain.



Yonkos and Admirals are top of the food chain in the manga, not Mihawk. A Yonko Whitebeard >>> Mihawk by latter's own admission, since the distance in their prowess is huge by how Mihawk describes it. Luffy will barely surpass the Yonkos and Admirals, while Zoro will surpass Mihawk. We've seen how a Yonko can one-shot the first mate. 



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Marine fodders called that slash the world's strongest, and it was stopped by Jozu because of his fruit, you need to aim to cut jozu to be able to cut him, the same thing happened when Daz stopped one of the slashes, but the next one aimed at him put him down. Do you mean this?



Oda through those marines called it world strongest slash, so it's a statement from the author. 



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Gura is not active here, as you can see. The one who stopped a gura quake was Akainu, but he was using his df then.
> Shanks clashed evenly with a WB in much better condition, so I would not be so quick to say Kizaru>Shanks in strength, although it is possible.



My mistake then. But even then, WB was using Haki. Kizaru scales to Akainu who stopped WB's earthquake with 1 foot. WB is the strongest man, the strongest Yonko and we've seen his feats of strength. Meanwhile, Shanks = WB who wasn't using his DF in strength. So Kizaru outclasses Shanks in strength by large magnitudes.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Kizaru was matched in cqc by an old Ray, who had not picked up a sword in 20 years and was inactive, if Ray could match up with Kizaru and keep up with his speed, I am not saying Kizaru is not the fastest, he can be, but the top tiers can match him otherwise he would blitz all of them. Shanks' speed was also praised in MF as well.



Didn't say Kizaru can blitz Shanks. All I said was he's faster, that's all.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> No info on how long Shanks can go, but if high tiers can go on for 5 days, I think it is safe to say that the top tiers can do at least that.



BM can endure for 48 hours only. WB can endure for few hours. To say Shanks can do what Ace and Jinbei did is baseless and non-supported. He may have great, he may not. All that is speculation. But Kizaru still outclasses him in stamina.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Mihawk's casual slash that left an air slash that then traversed a vast distance cut up lifted and destroyed the pieces of an iceberg created by Aokiji's ice, the feat was island level, and that was a casual Mihawk, Shanks gets scaled to a serious Mihawk who is above island level, when his casual slashes produce an air slash that weakens the more distance it crosses and is still island level.



The distance the slash travelled is not an island level. The iceberg he cut is not an island level. Marineford in its entirety is tiny compared to Punk Hazard. Whitebeard > Mihawk (Mihawk's admission) = Shanks. WB's best DC feat is splitting that tiny island in half. To say Mihawk scales above WB directly goes against Mihawk's words and powerscaling establishment of OP.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Other stats are not mentioned, lethality and haki are more probably Shanks' forte, especially haki as Kizaru seems to be a DF oriented combatant.



Kizaru can stalemate Rayleigh in Haki, so no proof Shanks's Hkai is any superior.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Tl;dr Shanks is nigh-featless but Kizaru can get his scaling from Aokiji and Akainu who went all out, so it is not a good idea to compare their stats just like that.



I scaled Shanks to WB and Mihawk, and even with that he's inferior.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 12, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> All of this is speculation, but that's another topic.
> ​
> 
> Yonkos and Admirals are top of the food chain in the manga, not Mihawk. A Yonko Whitebeard >>> Mihawk by latter's own admission, since the distance in their prowess is huge by how Mihawk describes it. Luffy will barely surpass the Yonkos and Admirals, while Zoro will surpass Mihawk. We've seen how a Yonko can one-shot the first mate.
> ...



How is it speculation? Roger offered to tell WB the location of Raftel, WB said no, Shanks was in Roger's crew when they went to Raftel, he knows how to get there, he is just not interested, like WB. To reach Raftel you need the poneglyphs.

Yes, Yonko and Admirals are at the top, but Mihawk is>a yonko and an admiral, Fuji was even addressed as a blind swordsman

and as I said earlier, through scaling the Admirals, and their battles, you have them as equals, meaning that if Mihawk is superior to one, he can be superior to all of them. Actually, the best translation from that comes from Den Den mushi and goes like this "This is merely a conjecture, but the true distance between that man and us seems rather small'', and this was before the stab and before people were aware of how badly WB's health deteriorated. Both Zoro and Luffy will surpass them, Zoro may not surpass all the Yonko, but he will some, as Mihawk as I said earlier is >a yonko and an Admiral, and by extension all the Admirals.

Fodder marines, who have probably never seen Mihawk fight made that statement, just because the slash came from the World's strongest swordsman does not mean any slash of his is the world's strongest, and if we took statements like that at face value, we would have Dofla hyping Pica to be able to best Fuji, BM being unstoppable during her hunger pangs by her crew, etc.

No indication of WB using haki, quite the contrary actually, if he were using haki he would have cut Kizaru when he swung his bisento at him

but as we know Kizaru came out of it unscathed. Admirals are not equals in all stats, as you yourself demonstrated, Kizaru is probably the fastest, meaning Akainu and Aokiji also have areas in which they excel at, they are equals overall, but not in all stats. Old sick dying WB was definitely not the strongest Yonko as shown with his performance in MF, and being matched by Admirals, he was getting heart attacks mid battle, was not able to use haki properly, and was even wounded and sabotaged by his own son, and could not react to him, emphasized by Marco as well. Calling that WB the strongest Yonko is absurd. Shanks matched a healthier version of WB, and stopped Akainu's punch without any problems and made Akainu sweat
 .


I did not say that you said that Kizaru can blitz Shanks, I said top tiers can match him, when an old Ray who was inactive for 20 years was able to match him in CQC, do not strawman me.

Hunger pangs BM has issues, and a sick old dying WB had issues, not exactly sure how that has any connection to healthy young non dying without hunger pangs top tiers, comparing them to people who do not suffer such problems is not a good idea. To say Kizaru definitely outclasses him in stamina is baseless, when we have no info on Shanks' stamina and only through scaling do we have any idea on Kizaru's stamina.

My point with the distance was to show you that air slashes weaken the more distance they cover. The iceberg dwarfed MF in size



Check out the size of the Island compared to the ships. The island of Marine ford is a lot bigger than people think it is, there were tons of ships as big as Moby dick around it, the island has a city in it, you can kinda grasp the idea of the size of Marine Ford when Whitebeard split it in half or when we get distant camera angles of it. Mihawk, as I said, produced a casual slash that left an air slash, that then traversed the distance, and cut, then lifted the ice, and then caused it to shatter, the feat is an island level feat, and that was a casual Mihawk, Shanks gets scaled to a serious Mihawk, the WB part I have already covered in the previous paragraphs so I will not repeat it here again.

No proof of that, Ray was not shown using any advanced form of haki in his clash with Kizaru, and even then Kizaru was the one who got cut and not Ray, and as I said before Kizaru is a more df oriented combatant, while Shanks is hailed as the master of all three types of haki, implying his haki>Kizaru's. You did not answer some of my points in the post, therefore I will regard them as conceded points.

You did not scale properly, that is why some points are more in Kizaru's favour, try again now.

Reactions: Like 3


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## silverfire (Jul 12, 2019)

I think Kizaru wins, but if Shanks had either two arms or a good DF, it’d be a different story.

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## Red Admiral (Jul 12, 2019)

silverfire said:


> I think Kizaru wins, but if Shanks had either two arms or a good DF, it’d be a different story.



you really think Oda would let that happen? like really?

like Oda ignore Shanks who matter as fuck for himself and plot and let Kizaru who really is just a solder win?

p.s

welcome


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## silverfire (Jul 12, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> you really think Oda would let that happen? like really?
> 
> like Oda ignore Shanks who matter as fuck for himself and plot and let Kizaru who really is just a solder win?
> 
> ...


Yes, because Shanks can still have high plot importance without being the absolute strongest.

And thank you

Reactions: Like 1


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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

silverfire said:


> Yes, because Shanks can still have high plot importance without being the absolute strongest.
> 
> And thank you



yes ... not absolute strongest ... but stronger than some admiral ... I can name 8 people stronger than Kizaru ... so you don't need to be THE STRONGEST to beat Kizaru

I'm not even want to use same old argument about what powers Shanks may have and ....

but people need to respect the plot ... people who are main bosses of the story have the respect of Oda and he are now below others unless plot need them to be and atm, plot need them stronger but not weaker


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## Sengoku (Jul 13, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> yes ... not absolute strongest ... but stronger than some admiral ... I can name 8 people stronger than Kizaru ... so you don't need to be THE STRONGEST to beat Kizaru
> 
> I'm not even want to use same old argument about what powers Shanks may have and ....
> 
> but people need to respect the plot ... people who are main bosses of the story have the respect of Oda and he are now below others unless plot need them to be and atm, plot need them stronger but not weaker



But of course weaker than some admirals too, right? And also weaker than Mihawk as well.

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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> But of course weaker than some admirals too, right? And also weaker than Mihawk as well.



Admrilas are Top tiers thanks to their DF

not thanks to their skill of fight and their Haki ...

as Mihawk called it DF is nothing but cheap trick ... so they are* FAKE TOP TIERS *


and even with a top Tier DF ... Kizaru become a admiral on age +46 ... and base on out knowlage there wasn't a waiting line for being admiral ... there wasn't 3 admiral before him cause if it was we would know or see

and yet

Shanks was a LEGIT Yonko in age -26 with no help of any DF


Shanks Vs Mihawk was a LEGENDARY CLASS duel ...

while even

Akainu Vs Kuzan is not known as legendary ... just very famous

sorry mate ... can't see Kizaru or any admiral that close to the level of skill and talent that Shanks have and in a fight that matter the most

I'm not even bring up 3 Top Tier class Haki , top tier swordsmanship , Old Beard strength and unrealistic speed of Shanks

hype and achievement alone prove Shanks to be most skilled and stronger than any admiral

and if you compere Shanks power set with any of them Shanks out classes them too




Only Yonko and Mihawk CAN have a claim to be above Shanks ... a claim I would consider if it be logical but for now only Kaido claim surpass Shanks claim ... and that's cause of Shanks MAJOR lack of feat and info


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## Sherlōck (Jul 13, 2019)

Kizaru is only weaker than Kaido & Akainu at this point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Jul 13, 2019)

stealthblack said:


> Gonna give it to shanks extreme diff for now. But this could last 10 days.



That sounds really biased. Kizaru doesn't have endurance hype yet you just give him random feats because he has the same rank as Akainu and Aokiji did which is just flawed logic. The Admirals were also vice admirals at one point so can the vice admirals fight for 10 days as well now?


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## Flame (Jul 13, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That sounds really biased. Kizaru doesn't have endurance hype yet you just give him random feats because he has the same rank as Akainu and Aokiji did which is just flawed logic. The Admirals were also vice admirals at one point so can the vice admirals fight for 10 days as well now?


What's so flawed about it? it's scaling. Both Yonko and Admirals benefit from it. He obviously should be on the same level as them. Also why do you compare a vice admiral to an admiral? They obviously got way stronger since their VA days.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Kizaru is only weaker than Kaido & Akainu at this point.



that's way too much hype for no real reason ...

I can even understand (not agree) why some one would say Akainu is top 2 ... 

but to say Kizaru is above Shanks , Big Mom , Teach , Mihawk and Dragon ... no real logic would back this up


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## Sherlōck (Jul 13, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> that's way too much hype for no real reason ...
> 
> I can even understand (not agree) why some one would say Akainu is top 2 ...
> 
> but to say Kizaru is above Shanks , Big Mom , Teach , Mihawk and Dragon ... no real logic would back this up



I didn't say Kizaru is above Shanks. It's 50-50 either way for me.

I think Mihawk is weaker than Shanks so automatically means he is weaker than Kizaru imo.

Meme's feats speaks for themselves. Her feats are even unimpressive than the weakest Admiral Fujitora. Be glad that I at least don't put her below Fujitora as well. She is weaker than Kizaru based on feats & scalling from other Admirals.

Teach is currently weaker but by the time he fights Luffy he will have already defeated Shanks and be PK level. So he will be stronger by then.

Dragon is a wild card. I am betting he will beat Im. But without feats I can't put him so high up on the ladder.


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## Sherlōck (Jul 13, 2019)

Also can you merge these two threads @Soca,


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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> I didn't say Kizaru is above Shanks. It's 50-50 either way for me.
> 
> I think Mihawk is weaker than Shanks so automatically means he is weaker than Kizaru imo.
> 
> ...



one advise from me ... 
never and never and never let yourself to be SO CONFIDENCE to assume you can guess what would happen in a story who like twists  


but again ... Big Mom feat make a YC 2 cry and shit himself in fear while in MF a YC had no fear facing an admiral even when their captain was dead

we have no clear data about Teach power level atm but his achievement speak for itself and ANY DF user would be in a DEADLY danger facing him ... and now his darkness might be on next level

Dragon is as good as logia admirals unless he have advance CoC 

Mihawk is a legendary fighter and legend among men as Oda called him and the end goal for Zoro ... can't see him be below any admiral ... but Akainu still might have a claim .... 

your whole claim for Kizaru > Mihawk is Shanks ~ Kizaru .... but Shanks have both better skill and better power set than Kizaru and better achievement .... no real logic to imply Shanks ~ Kizaru



so again ... Kizaru don't have a CLAIM to be above this people ... 

people are overrating him if they put him in top 5



still ... you are free to hype people as much as you like , but bet wisely


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## Sengoku (Jul 13, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> Admrilas are Top tiers thanks to their DF
> 
> not thanks to their skill of fight and their Haki ...



So Blackbeard, an emperor, is only top tier thanks to his DF, right?



> as Mihawk called it DF is nothing but cheap trick ... so they are* FAKE TOP TIERS*



Do you have a panel of this?



> and even with a top Tier DF ... Kizaru become a admiral on age +46 ... and base on out knowlage there wasn't a waiting line for being admiral ... there wasn't 3 admiral before him cause if it was we would know or see



You are putting too much emphasis on age when in reality it's really not that big of a deal lol.



> and yet
> 
> Shanks was a LEGIT Yonko in age -26 with no help of any DF



It matters more when the opponent doesn't have haki. Once you have mastered other hakis and you are an actual top tier, having DF or not doesn't really matter all that much. Otherwise, why won't Garp, Shanks, Mihawk all just say, "Fuck our egos. Let's just eat DF and become even more powerful".

It makes zero sense to think that Shanks or Garp would refuse to eat a DF solely on ego issues.




> Shanks Vs Mihawk was a LEGENDARY CLASS duel ...
> 
> while even
> 
> Akainu Vs Kuzan is not known as legendary ... just very famous



Yeah, that is because most of these quotes are directly from pirates themselves.

Ask any marine fodders and then would likely say Borsalino, Kuzan, and Sakazuki are legendary in their own right.



> sorry mate ... can't see Kizaru or any admiral that close to the level of skill and talent that Shanks have and in a fight that matter the most



Garp doesn't have a DF and he was nigh-close to PK level. And he is only a vice admiral.
You should give credit to the marines side too, ya know?



> I'm not even bring up 3 Top Tier class Haki , top tier swordsmanship , Old Beard strength and unrealistic speed of Shanks



Ehh Kizaru is faster, imo.



> hype and achievement alone prove Shanks to be most skilled and stronger than any admiral



Hype has Sakazuki finding One Piece in 1 year. Shanks has been an emperor for how many years now? He still couldn't find One Piece and obtained PK status. Meanwhile, Sakazuki obtained fleet admiral status. That is a fucking good resume if you ask me.



> and if you compere Shanks power set with any of them Shanks out classes them too



Almost zero feats. I'll wait instead of putting all of the eggs in 1 basket, thank you very much.




> Only Yonko and Mihawk CAN have a claim to be above Shanks ... a claim I would consider if it be logical but for now only Kaido claim surpass Shanks claim ... and that's cause of Shanks MAJOR lack of feat and info



Sakazuki, Garp, Sengoku, etc...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 13, 2019)

Its a bit too soon to say exactly how strong Shanks is. Aside from his bond with Luffy we know very little about him. We certainly know nothing about how he fights. 

But I would be very surprised if Kizaru was the stronger one. For the One Piece lore to work Shanks is required to be stronger than an admiral. The balances of power dictates that the Yonko are kept in check by the combined force of the Marines and disinterested Shibukai, and the disunity between the Yonko. This balance would not exist if an admiral was stronger than Shanks. If Admirals were the equal of the Yonko then what do they need the Shibukai for? Why are the Yonko still free and ruling large swats of the new world if sending an admiral was enough to take them down? 

Mihawk being in Shanks league would kinda work because we know he's extremely disinterested in his role as a Shibukai. Its different with Kizaru who's an active opponent of all pirates.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> So Blackbeard, an emperor, is only top tier thanks to his DF, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes , but he is more than a DF , he is a monster for having +1 DF 
go read Mihawk words after Vista let Luffy run for it
not too much ... Kizaru was good enough to be a admiral when he was +46, that's fact 
yes , at this point there is no real logic behind Garp , Shanks and Mihawk not eating a DF all of would would EASILY be above Prime Beard if they find a Top Tier DF or would be more deadly than Prime Beard if they use sea stone weapon, why not? don't ask me ... atm I consider it a bug of the story
no one called it legend atm , I'm glad to call it that too since BY GIVING FACTS it make more sense of Akainu Vs Kuzan be even a harder and bigger fight ... since Shanks and Mihawk were TOO YOUNG at the time of that duel , but what can I do? it's not my story 
Yes Kizaru is faster , no deny but if Dark King speed is good enough to keep up with Kizaru it make sense if Shanks can do just as good if not more , not to mention Shanks higher class of CoO would not let Kizaru speed give him a disadvantage
hype have Akainu finding one piece IF HE WAS THE PROTAGONIST ... if he was the captain of the strew hat , son on Dragon and grand son of Garp ... at that interview Oda is talking about a *"Akainu level Luffy finding one piece in a year"* not *"the fleet admiral Akainu doing it"* and trust me you don't want to use this as hype *cause Shanks can do it in few weeks if he wanted *... he basically gonna need a good boat since he know the way. so in either case this argument is meaningless. sorry mate but it's foolish if you assume Shanks don't know the way of the one piece and couldn't have it ... Shanks was in Raftel in age 14 ... fucking 14!!! he know way too good why he is not the right person to have the one piece so he simply refuse to have it. he been in raftel or even not he can simply ask Dark King the way and after that it's just a matter of weeks 
well only cause you can deny it don't mean you are right ... but I can call it fair 
Akainu feat is good enough for an old sick Yonko not a prime one ... let alone OLD ASS people like Garp and Sengoku who are at best low top tier


there is not focus in this argument... I can already see too many long post and in the end no result ...


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## Sengoku (Jul 13, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> yes , but he is more than a DF , he is a monster for having +1 DF



But he is cheating according to your logic. He is using a DF so he would never become an emperor if he didn't eat DF.
See how ridiculous this sounds?



> go read Mihawk words after Vista let Luffy run for it



I did and there was not a single mention of "cheap tricks or trickery anywhere".  You are lying here unless you can provide the scan itself. Or you are using the anime as a reference. If it is the latter then you should immediately stop. No one in here uses the anime.



> yes , at this point there is no real logic behind Garp , Shanks and Mihawk not eating a DF all of would would EASILY be above Prime Beard if they find a Top Tier DF or would be more deadly than Prime Beard if they use sea stone weapon, why not? don't ask me ... atm I consider it a bug of the story



No, because that would be hideously stupid on Oda's part if he were to use your logic.

let me ask you this: Why would you give even an inch of advantage to your enemies?

If your enemy has a knife pointed at you and your daughter, then you better utilize everything in your arsenal to win that scenario. You are not just going to fight him with your fists only assuming if you have weapons lying around.

THEREFORE, Oda made it so that even if you acquire a DF (weapon), its not going to matter all that much in HIS STORY. He could easily have Garp obtain the BROKEN light fruit and still he would be inferior to Roger and Whitebeard because that's how he balances his universe.



> no one called it legend atm , I'm glad to call it that too since BY GIVING FACTS it make more sense of Akainu Vs Kuzan be even a harder and bigger fight ... since Shanks and Mihawk were TOO YOUNG at the time of that duel , but what can I do? it's not my story



Ok? So pirates call their fights legendary. So what. Guess what? Right now, I'll call Kuzan and Sakazuki's Punk Hazard fight legendary, too!



> Yes Kizaru is faster , no deny but if Dark King speed is good enough to keep up with Kizaru it make sense if Shanks can do just as good if not more , not to mention Shanks higher class of CoO would not let Kizaru speed give him a disadvantage



No, it wouldn't make sense if Shanks has higher speed than Kizaru just because of his title. You are debating with someone who thinks Admirals = Yonkos here, remember?



> hype have Akainu finding one piece IF HE WAS THE PROTAGONIST ... if he was the captain of the strew hat , son on Dragon and grand son of Garp ... at that interview Oda is talking about a *"Akainu level Luffy finding one piece in a year"* not *"the fleet admiral Akainu doing it"*



Akainu leveled Luffy? No, he didn't. You are choosing to *lie* to everyone here again. According to Sandman (a reputable and well respected poster from another website states): -> *According to the interview between Oda and Yasutaka Nakata, if Akainu becomes the protagonist, he is so strong that he can put an end to ONE PIECE within a year. Akainu (maybe other admirals) seems like one of the strongest characters in ONE PIECE. 

Do not resort to lies just to fit your narrative. *



> and trust me you don't want to use this as hype *cause Shanks can do it in few weeks if he wanted *... he basically gonna need a good boat since he know the way. so in either case this argument is meaningless. sorry mate but it's foolish if you assume Shanks don't know the way of the one piece and couldn't have it



Speculation at best. He isn't Roger or Whitebeard level yet. And he has been an emperor for how long again?




> Shanks was in Raftel in age 14 ... fucking 14!!! he know way too good why he is not the right person to have the one piece so he simply refuse to have it. he been in raftel or even not he can simply ask Dark King the way and after that it's just a matter of weeks



That still doesn't explain why his power level isn't on the same level as Roger or Prime Whitebeard.



> well only cause you can deny it don't mean you are right ... but I can call it fair



You need to explain to me and others here why Shanks hasn't become prime Whitebeard or Roger level. Thank you.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> But he is cheating according to your logic. He is using a DF so he would never become an emperor if he didn't eat DF.
> See how ridiculous this sounds?
> 
> 
> ...




if fact I consider admirals MORE SKILLED fighters than Kaido , Big Mom and Teach .... and NONE OF THEM would be top tier on normal terms if the didn't had fake powers or was a born monsters ... they are not Top Tiers thanks to skill and talent and train ... so all of them are in lower class of skill than likes of Garp , Shanks and Mihawk. that's just logic
I find it for you ... 
a twisted point of view is not fact mate ... like of Garp and Shanks can eat DF or use sea stone weapon but they don't ... why? at this point it's a bug ... end of story
you are not canon base of info for hype 
dude ... I have read the entire interview ... *and it's more than clear you just read some summery* of it who some dude on internet wrote it ... *first go read the whole thing and than come back to me about this* ... it's MORE THAN CLEAR what I said was Oda said as well
again ... saying he didn't found one piece is not proving anything ... only cause people can it don't means they should as we saw in WB case ... and by the way it's not AT ALL Speculation ... even if we assume Shanks wasn't in raftel (no real reason to think why not) Dark King was ... Shanks can ask Dark King and Dark King would tell him. as I said ... it's matter of weeks for Shanks "IF HE WANTED"
his power is not equal to Roger or Prime Beard ... cause NO MAN ALIVE OR DEAD is equal to this two ... but can you prove the gap is big? Shanks already being sated as closest man to the throne ... 
I need to explain what?  being the Pirate King is not a matter of power alone it's a matter of going to raftel ... and Shanks is to blame for not being equal to Roger? what kind of argument is that?  admirals are to blame for not being Prime Garp level as well I guess


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## Soca (Jul 13, 2019)

Sherlōck said:


> Also can you merge these two threads @Soca,


That's a year old thread. Leave it as is.


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## Sengoku (Jul 13, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> I find it for you ...
> a twisted point of view is not fact mate ... like of Garp and Shanks can eat DF or use sea stone weapon but they don't ... why? at this point it's a bug ... end of story
> you are not canon base of info for hype
> dude ... I have read the entire interview ... *and it's more than clear you just read some summery* of it who some dude on internet wrote it ... *first go read the whole thing and than come back to me about this* ... it's MORE THAN CLEAR what I said was Oda said as well



I will wait until you can provide me the scan of Mihawk saying it was some "cheap trick/trickery"
AND the official translation of where he says Akainu-leveled Luffy finishing/finding One Piece in 1 year before I reply back the rest of your post.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> I will wait until you can provide me the scan of Mihawk saying it was some "cheap trick/trickery"
> AND the official translation of where he says Akainu-leveled Luffy finishing/finding One Piece in 1 year before I reply back the rest of your post.



it's really your job to find them since you are the one with not complete info ... but I put some time for it ... 

for now this is the interview 




as you can see the question is about why protagonist of the story (luffy) should not be that strong from the start

and Oda replay if Akainu become the protagonist (luffy) he would find one piece in a year


so it's 100% wrong to say fleet admiral Akainu can find one piece in a year

but the protagonist Akainu can do that ... if he was in Luffy's shoe but with his own power level ... 

it's really a basic thing to understand ... 


cause Luffy could do all of this fight with just a punch fight and end it WAY faster

he don't need time to train and power up and ... 


Luffy himself would find one piece in 4 years at max from the start of the story

he wasted 2 years for train and many times waste too much time for not being strong enough and run away from many fights ...



but to say Fleet admiral Akainu would go fight 4 Yonko and win and become the pirate King is not even logical to consider


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## Sengoku (Jul 13, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> it's really your job to find them since you are the one with not complete info ... but I put some time for it ...



Silly goose, why would it be my job to find something that I know doesn't exist? It would be impossible because it doesn't exist. It is like I don't believe in leprechauns and you are telling me to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow otherwise I'm wrong. Lol wut?



> as you can see the question is about why protagonist of the story (luffy) should not be that strong from the start
> 
> and Oda replay if Akainu become the protagonist (luffy) he would find one piece in a year
> 
> ...



I sincerely hope you are trolling. 

Read the highlighted sentence again. It says "If Akainu BECAME the protagonist, he is so strong that ONE PIECE would come to an end within a year". That is saying Akainu HIMSELF becomes the protagonist. It does NOT SAY Akainu-leveled Luffy or anything remotely close to it.

If he were to say Akainu leveled Luffy like you hoped for, he would have stated something along the lines of: "If Luffy became AS powerful AS Akainu, he is so strong that ONE PIECE would come to an end within a year."

You might be reading things wrong.  

Regardless, both conditions (If Akainu became the protagnoist OR If Luffy became as powerful as Akainu) result in Akainu himself OR a 100% carbon copy of him (same background history, experience, personality, etc...), can end it in 1 year.

Meaning now to the future, Akainu's powers are sufficient enough to beat any Yonkos.


Waiting on the Mihawk scan. Please post url reference as well. I want to check the authenticity of it when you do. Thanks.


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## Red Admiral (Jul 13, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> Silly goose, why would it be my job to find something that I know doesn't exist? It would be impossible because it doesn't exist. It is like I don't believe in leprechauns and you are telling me to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow otherwise I'm wrong. Lol wut?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sigh ... it was so simple to understand what is the meaning of "being the protagonist" ...

but seem to hard for you to understand

protagonist of one piece is from D claim
protagonist of one piece  is son of Dragon
protagonist of one piece is Gran son of Garp
protagonist of one piece is a friend of Shanks 
protagonist of one piece is brother of Sabo
protagonist of one piece is captain of strew hat

if you check all of this ... you are the protagonist of one piece ....


not that Akainu can beat any Yonko ... lol ....


dude first Sabo > Big mom 
now Akainu > any Yonko


in the end all you have is argument about some thing but saying your head canon and see things in a twisted way


every thing is clear ... don't trick yourself in to a BS ... even the next line in that interview Hype Kaido to be the strongest not Akainu


it's funny how you are reading some thing but only see what you like and ignore the rest and logic 


I already waste too much time over this


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## stealthblack (Jul 13, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That sounds really biased. Kizaru doesn't have endurance hype yet you just give him random feats because he has the same rank as Akainu and Aokiji did which is just flawed logic. The Admirals were also vice admirals at one point so can the vice admirals fight for 10 days as well now?


not all vice are the same, only few get selected as admirals. kizaru took Attacks from wb and could have headshot him if he wasn't stupid and aim for his chest instead.

and I did say shanks wins


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## Quipchaque (Jul 13, 2019)

stealthblack said:


> not all vice are the same, only few get selected as admirals. kizaru took Attacks from wb and could have headshot him if he wasn't stupid and aim for his chest instead.
> 
> and I did say shanks wins



Kizaru didn't take a single attack from Whitebeard and that is exactly the thing..If Kizaru was as much of an endurance freak as the other 2 while also being as fast as he already is he would be much... Muuuch stronger than the other admirals which he clearly is not portrayed to be. Headshots are not relevant to what I have said.

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## Sengoku (Jul 14, 2019)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think someone has asked Sandman whether or not strongest and greatest/most skillful can be used interchangeably and he said yes. Which means Mihawk is the strongest.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 14, 2019)

Sengoku said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I think someone has asked Sandman whether or not strongest and greatest/most skillful can be used interchangeably and he said yes. Which means Mihawk is the strongest.



Yea that person was @Erkan12, a DB and One Piece expert that is permabanned in both sections


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 15, 2019)

Only people that can beat Shanks:

Kaido, BB, Mihawk, Akainu


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## Turrin (Jul 15, 2019)

Shanks Mid/Low diff.


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## Shiroryu (Jul 15, 2019)

Shanks high diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edogawa (Jul 16, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Mihawk's title is the world's strongest swordsman, not the world's most skillful swordsman or the sort. Here is a panel of Kuina saying she will lose to men in the physical department and cannot be the WSS



Wtf? There is no reason to even have a title like _most skilful swordsman_. Not only the title sounds dumb, but even in real life, sport titles use either best or strongest. Mihawk's title applies he's the strongest fighter in only using swords, not he's strongest fighter in general because he's not.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> The first thing Mihawk taught Zoro was haki, all swordsmen use haki, I do not even understand the mental gymnastics here. Fuji is introduced as a blind swordsman, while having a df, Shiryu ate a df and is still a swordsman. The title encompasses all stats. Do you honestly believe that the title is for fencing? If so, you are in for a rude awakening.



All that scan shows you can't be a strong swordsman without having great speed, strength and Haki. It doesn't say Mihawk excels in these stats above every other character in the series. That's you reading with your ass, not with your brain. The title only applies to swordsmanship; his title is not the world strongest man.

-Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player in football (soccer). The title doesn't imply he runs faster than anyone or kicks the ball harder than anyone, it just means he's better than everyone in one field and that is football. 

-Floyd Mayweather is the best lightweight division boxer. The title doesn't say he can beat anyone in a fight or he's stronger than anyone, the title means under boxing rules in lightweight division, Floyd is the best. 

I can go on forever but the point is simple: Mihawk beats anyone in swords fight, that is what his title means. He's superior to Fujitora in swordsmanship, that is it. He's not superior Fujitora in fighting prowess, since fights aren't just about swords, they include other things. Nowhere it's stated he's superior fighter than Fujitora. That's again, you, reading with your ass, not with your head.




Light D Lamperouge said:


> As I said a slash from the WSS does not automatically make it the world's strongest slash, and I explained why such statements are not to be taken at face value, or do you wanna say Pica can beat FUji, or that BM is truly unstoppable, etc?



Concession accepted for denying the author's word. Btw, do you think Mihawk has some magical sword ability or something? All he does is swing the sword with Haki, it's not magical or anything to imply that slash wasn't his best.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Proof of him using haki? Kizaru was not even aware that he was going to swing at him. WB was shown to be unable to use his haki properly in MF, Aokiji morphed around the bisento, the only time where he could have used it was in the Akainu fight, but before that no.



> Says WB couldn't use Haki properly.

-Manga shows WB using Observation Haki on Crocodile and Armament Haki on Admirals. Manga shows WB attempting to use Conqueror Haki on the fodder executioners. And then you go on denying facts, how do you expect me to debate you with your denials?

If you're expecting visual proof of Haki, then you're not getting any since Oda didn't color Haki in pre-time skip. So I'll accept your concession for repeating the same addressed question.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Marco and Vista's haki may not hurt him, but WB's haki would. You are now contradicting yourself, if it was enough to hurt Akainu, and as you say they are equals, it would hurt Kizaru as well. You have the panel, Kizaru is not shown reacting to it anywhere.



Kizaru has Observation Haki so he knew WB was behind him. He turned himself to light as response to WB's attack. It's literally similar to Aokiji vs WB.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> You said that Kizaru is the fastest, right? If Akainu and Aokiji are as fast as him, then he is not the fastest, right? Not all feats are immediately given to all Admirals. There are categories in which each of them excel, or Kizaru would then be the strongest one because he would have all of their stats but would be faster. Simple as that.



Repeating your same addressed nonsense isn't gonna make you correct, when you're wrong. Manga shows Akainu vs Aokiji being nigh equal to each other, and Kizaru scales to them in everything; if he's faster then that's a point for him. Not like speed has meant anything in the top tier.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Pretty rich coming from someone who thinks that the world's strongest swordsman is a fencing title. Prime WB was the one elevated at such heights, none of them knew that his health was that bad. You are just strawmanning and not answering my points. WB could not use haki properly, could not react to anything, Squardo was able to stab him, he was getting heart attacks mid battle, you did not answer any of these points. It was quite evident in MF that WB was just a shell of his former self, and by no means the strongest anymore.



Old WB was stated to be above the Yonkos. What part of that do you understand? Your headcanon doesn't override the author's words.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Akainu's df is of the highest tier and packs the highest tier of offensive power, and is extremely lethal, stopping a punch coming from his df and making him sweat is a feat. Do not forget that Shanks moments later challenged everyone, and Akainu, who was in front of him, did not dare engage.



Irrelevant. A punch aimed for Coby is not quantifiable for Shanks. Don't use that again. Sure, he challenged everyone else like how Jack challenged the Marines. Not that Jack compares to Shanks, but that your argument means nothing.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> We have no info as I said, so saying his stamina is better is baseless, or then anyone who has ever fought for even five minutes has better stamina than Shanks.



Concession accepted for not showing Shanks's stamina feats.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Find the calc for Mihawk's feat and you will find that it is island level, a casual Mihawk pulled off an island level feat, an air slash that weakens the more distance it covers was an island level attack from a casual Mihawk. Shanks gets scaled to a serious Mihawk, who is logically above casual Mihawk. He cleaved the iceberg cleanly and caused it go up in air and then shatter in fragments. I already explained this, it is not that hard to understand.



Islands don't have a fixed size. They vary in size. Punk Hazard is much bigger than MF. Admirals forever changed the climate, the ecosystem of that massive island just as side-effect of their fight. So that is superior to MF island feat. End of story.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Now you are literally denying the manga, Ray said that he taught Luffy the basics of haki. FS and ryouy or however it is spelled is the advanced form of simple haki. I did not see Ray using those forms of haki, and as I said Kizaru was the one cut and not Ray. All you have said is speculation, and you are now accusing me of speculating. As I said Shanks is hailed as a master of all three types of haki, is a top tier without a df, and without any monster characteristics like BM or Kaido, it is not hard to see what makes him a top tier, and what swordsmen specialize in.





Light D Lamperouge said:


> Now you are literally denying the manga, Ray said that he taught Luffy the basics of haki. FS and ryouy or however it is spelled is the advanced form of simple haki. I did not see Ray using those forms of haki, and as I said Kizaru was the one cut and not Ray. All you have said is speculation, and you are now accusing me of speculating. As I said Shanks is hailed as a master of all three types of haki, is a top tier without a df, and without any monster characteristics like BM or Kaido, it is not hard to see what makes him a top tier, and what swordsmen specialize in.



Like I said above, repeating your nonsense over and over won't make you correct. All of this was addressed.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Attempts at being supercilious are futile as you are not addressing all of my points and are conceding them, should this trend continue I will stop replying to you, because you are strawmanning.



I destroyed every argument you made. You can stop replying if you want, you concede to almost everything.


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## Edogawa (Jul 16, 2019)

I just noticed you made a thread that Mihawk is top 2. It's clear you're a fanboy and no amount of reasoning you will convince you. Yep, this debater is over now.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 16, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> Wtf? There is no reason to even have a title like _most skilful swordsman_. Not only the title sounds dumb, but even in real life, sport titles use either best or strongest. Mihawk's title applies he's the strongest fighter in only using swords, not he's strongest fighter in general because he's not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Concession accepted. Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, Fujitora is a swordsman, it is rather simple, like 1+1, but it seems that may be a bit advanced for you.


I do like that you think Ronaldo is the best player in the world, kudos for that.

Concession accepted, Fuji loses to Pica, BM is unstoppable.

Manga shows WB unable to react to Squardo, or anticipate what he will do, manga shows WB attempting as you said to use CoC and failing, so much that he had to rely on Luffy to do it. Manga shows WB being unable to even leave a tiny cut on Kizaru with an attack from his bisento.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Kizaru was turning into light to go attack Luffy, see:

Let me help you, manga is read from right to left. Maybe now you can see what happened.


The next part you did not even address what I said, so that is strawmanning that I will not bother with. Concession accepted.

Perhaps a healthy old WB would be above the Yonko, as I said before and you have not even attempted to answer, WB with heart attacks mid battle, with reactions so bad fodder was stabbing him, and without the ability to use haki properly is not the strongest Yonko.



Just because you cannot refute it does not make it irrelevant. Marines decimated Jack, but did not dare engage Shanks. The difference is quite clear.


There is zero evidence of Shanks' stamina and you want me to show you his stamina? I think even you understand how stupid that is.



This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. If you want to say all out admirals>casual Mihawk then sure, but it does not change the fact that a casual Mihawk produced an island level feat accidentally, which was the point discussed, and the point you denied but conceded now.


Concession accepted.

For someone  so wrong you sure try to act intelligent, I am sorry to burst your bubble with this. But good luck have fun in your imaginary world, where you think you even put up a debate and in which it may, emphasis on may, be possible that you addressed or refuted something. Bye bye.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Red Admiral (Jul 16, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Concession accepted. Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, Fujitora is a swordsman, it is rather simple, like 1+1, but it seems that may be a bit advanced for you.
> 
> 
> I do like that you think Ronaldo is the best player in the world, kudos for that.
> ...



just saying

Mihawk > Fuji ... for SURE

but

cause of better hype and possible power set

since Fujitora become a Top Tier maybe YEARS after Mihawk got his title and they never fought

the LOGIC of WSS won't imply to Fujitora ... (even assuming WSS is over all power related)


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## barreltheif (Jul 16, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> just saying
> Mihawk > Fuji ... for SURE
> but
> cause of better hype and possible power set
> ...



Why do you think that Fujitora became a top tier after Mihawk got his title? Fujitora is older than Mihawk, and I see no reason why he couldn't have been a top tier before Mihawk's balls dropped.

Why do you think they never fought? And why is that relevant? Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, not just the strongest swordsman he has met.

WSS means overall power related (when it comes to swordsmanship).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 16, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> just saying
> 
> Mihawk > Fuji ... for SURE
> 
> ...


The title is confirmed in name and actuality and Fuji is addressed as a swordsman in the panel that I posted, he is included in MIhawk's title and is therefore beneath him.

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## Red Admiral (Jul 17, 2019)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> The title is confirmed in name and actuality and Fuji is addressed as a swordsman in the panel that I posted, he is included in MIhawk's title and is therefore beneath him.



that name and actuality is not clear that if it about overall power or just swordsmanship ...



barreltheif said:


> Why do you think that Fujitora became a top tier after Mihawk got his title? Fujitora is older than Mihawk, and I see no reason why he couldn't have been a top tier before Mihawk's balls dropped.
> 
> Why do you think they never fought? And why is that relevant? Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, not just the strongest swordsman he has met.
> 
> WSS means overall power related (when it comes to swordsmanship).




Cause I don't see him eat his DF for a long time .... top tiers are not everywhere to be find... he DF is far too good that he find it randomly ... WG should gave it to him ... and WG only do this if he was proven loyal ... it's very likely Fujitora got his DF just before become an admiral


why is that matter? imagine Rain eat Gura Gura nomi just now and learn all 3 advance Haki in a year .... so his over all power is above if not FAR above Mihawk .... but do you think world would consider him WSS ? as long as a WSS is not beaten he would have his title .... just like White Beard who wasn't strongest on his last years but had his title


I don't want to do Mihawk titles for 10,000,000th time again


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 17, 2019)

Mihawks title doesn't applie to swordsmen who have devil fruits that change there fighting style. 

Mihawks title by virtue doesn't mean he's auto stronger then fuji. 

He just so happens to be in fact stronger then fuji

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## barreltheif (Jul 17, 2019)

Red Admiral said:


> Cause I don't see him eat his DF for a long time .... top tiers are not everywhere to be find... he DF is far too good that he find it randomly ... WG should gave it to him ... and WG only do this if he was proven loyal ... it's very likely Fujitora got his DF just before become an admiral
> 
> why is that matter? imagine Rain eat Gura Gura nomi just now and learn all 3 advance Haki in a year .... so his over all power is above if not FAR above Mihawk .... but do you think world would consider him WSS ? as long as a WSS is not beaten he would have his title .... just like White Beard who wasn't strongest on his last years but had his title


Loads of people have gotten powerful DFs without the government's help. We don't know anything about Fujitora's past.

I don't know who Rain is. If someone became way stronger than Mihawk in swordsmanship, then yes, obviously they'd be the WSS, regardless of whether they ever fought Mihawk. Beating the previous WSS is just the most straightforward way to prove that you're the WSS.

Not that there's any evidence that Fujitora never fought Mihawk anyway.

Again, Mihawk is the strongest swordsman, not the strongest swordsman he has personally met.




Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Mihawks title doesn't applie to swordsmen who have devil fruits that change there fighting style.
> Mihawks title by virtue doesn't mean he's auto stronger then fuji. He just so happens to be in fact stronger then fuji



Agreed

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## Seraphoenix (Jul 17, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Mihawks title doesn't applie to swordsmen who have devil fruits that change there fighting style.
> 
> Mihawks title by virtue doesn't mean he's auto stronger then fuji.
> 
> He just so happens to be in fact stronger then fuji


In one of the volumes Oda calls Fuji a ''blind swordsman''. If you believe the title is word of god then Mihawk>Fuji as Fuji is a swordsman.


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## Soca (Jul 17, 2019)

This thread has gone full off the rails as expected. Closing up.


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