# Yu-Gi-Oh vs MTG



## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 25, 2012)

note : maybe I forgot to add another such famous title, but only played these 2 myself


1) Which do you like to play more ?
2) Which verse wins in a fight ?


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## Stunna (Jul 25, 2012)

Never played Magic, but YGO is a good time if you know how to play.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 25, 2012)

I like Magic's artwork More.

YGO has gotten a bit expensive to play IMO, and Magic has a bit more depth to it.

Hated the Planeswalker mechanic for Magic though, and some of the Synchros in YGO were pretty Fucking Game Breaking.

I play both, and as for which I enjoy playing more, it really depends on my mood. I lean more towards Magic though.


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## King Hopper (Jul 25, 2012)

a. both started out good and turned shit. Saga's tears make YGO more enjoyable on occasion, while OS's frustration make MTG worthwhile.

b. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Saint Saga (Jul 25, 2012)

Tears ? you mean when my randomly put together team can beat your metagamed and following an expert guide teams  ?


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## Xelloss (Jul 25, 2012)

OS play magic I so want to play with him now ^^

Now where did I put that old sliver deck.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 25, 2012)

I'd play with OS


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 25, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> OS play magic I so want to play with him now ^^
> 
> Now where did I put that old sliver deck.


Fellow Sliver User?

This is the best moment of today.


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## Akatora (Jul 25, 2012)

1) Magic, I play magic about once a week lately ~ 7-8 hours a time, I think i've played a total of ~ 5 games of Yu-Gi-Oh the latest more than 5 years ago.(Still got my cards, Got a standard pegasus deck with a few additional cards)

2) Probably magic unless yugi-oh is far above what i expected



My main decks in MTG would be:

Green/Blue Graveyard based
Green/Red Elemental
Green/White/Black Treefolk


Playing casual game though rather than competitive and usually we play 3 headed giant, star, emperor, arch enemy, 2 headed free for all highest i recall was something along 5 headed giant


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## Xelloss (Jul 25, 2012)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Fellow Sliver User?
> 
> This is the best moment of today.



Depends on my mood i haven't buy cards in years now

But I have 

Stasis
Academy
Elves
WW armageddon
10 land stompy
Rock
Slivers


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## Akatora (Jul 25, 2012)

Rock deck? = Elemental?


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## Xelloss (Jul 25, 2012)




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## Xiammes (Jul 25, 2012)

1) I play Yugioh, but only with IRL friends and one or two people online, own a Ojama and a Skull Servants deck that I spent about $200 on just to play with like 4 friends. 

2) Yugioh has The Creator of Light, a unquantifiable god. It also has a few universals(going off that duel terminal respect thread) and a few star busters, don't know about MTG.


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## hojou (Jul 25, 2012)

1. yugioh thats for sure
2. depends but yugioh has more broken cards in it, and its alot more fast pace then  magic.


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## Calamity (Jul 25, 2012)

1)Yugioh
2)Yugioh - Some of the high tier monsters are apparently universal if we are counting backstories


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## randomsurfer (Jul 25, 2012)

I prefer magic the gathering in terms of playing and even more so because it's actually collectable. With YuGioh, all cards are eventually almost worthless because of reprints from higher rarity to lower rarity, making it bad to collect.


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## hammer (Jul 25, 2012)

atem rapes the shit out of magic with his autowin hax


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## openrulez (Jul 25, 2012)

1 Having played both, yugioh.

2.Yugioh


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## Xiammes (Jul 25, 2012)

I really was confused when I found out how the heart of the cards works, shattered my entire perspective of the world. He was the biggest fucking cheater in the entire series, and the final duel where they were just abusing the hell out of it. 

I don't see how anyone could be Atem in a card game.


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## Xelloss (Jul 25, 2012)

Fight tolarian academy deck, lose on 1 turn now thats magic.


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## hammer (Jul 25, 2012)

you know whats magic?  I have a continues trap card that will get rid of 500 lp for every magic card I won on my opponents first turn.


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## Majinvergil (Jul 25, 2012)

1- I use to play both and like both lol

2- yu-gi-oh  has  universal monsters.


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## Helel (Jul 25, 2012)

1-Yu-Gi-Oh!

2-Genesis Star God, Sophia solos.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 25, 2012)

I also once played YuGioh but I prefer magic the gathering. If we go by overall sales, Magic would win by a mile.


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## Zarkus (Jul 25, 2012)

1. I couldn't get in to Magic. MtG has a far better company behind it though, but I'd edge out personal preference to Yugioh.

2. Aren't some MtG creatures Multiversal? Or just multi-dimensional? If not (or the latter) then YGO takes this due to having several universal monsters.


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## Helel (Jul 25, 2012)




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## randomsurfer (Jul 25, 2012)

And how exactly does guinness find out that it's the most selling card game? Yugioh might edge magic slightly in sales in USA but magic is a global card game that's printed in English, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Italian, French, Spanish, etc.


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## King Hopper (Jul 25, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> Tears ? you mean when my randomly put together team can beat your metagamed and following an expert guide teams  ?



metagamed decks my ass i just slap together everything of the same name and call it a deck :uvalaugh


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## King Hopper (Jul 25, 2012)

Horakhtys got shit for on screen feats for the record


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## familyparka (Jul 25, 2012)

I can't believe you actually made this thread.

I played MTG for the first time when I was 6 years old, I'm 20 now and I sincerilly feel offended by this.

There is NO point of comparison, you understand me? NO FREAKIN POINT.


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## Light (Jul 25, 2012)

Back in the good old days, I used to play Yugioh with my cousin. It was really fun. But what universal monsters does Yugioh have?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 25, 2012)

Yu-gi-oh is a classic, original that is after GX its pretty lame in terms of cards and show. 

Magic the gathering can suck Yugi's dick though. Original Yu-gi-oh>Magic, also i would think Magic would have stronger cards i mean from what i recall the God cards can destroy the world but um pretty sure a lot of cards can do that in MTG. I only care about original don't know how strong the stuff is story wise in GX and after that.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 25, 2012)

Sure...Yugioh is so good that it's not even the best selling card game in Japan, the country that created it. Yugioh is generally a bad game that's mostly played by kids and thugs. Some card shops I know of stopped selling the card game due to the large amount of stealing and mugging with those crowds.


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## Solrac (Jul 26, 2012)

I miss the original Yu-Gi-Oh! The new yugioh is well... mediocre or crap. 

I am planning to see the "Bonds Beyond Time" movie online later this year if i'm in the mood and have time.


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## familyparka (Jul 26, 2012)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yu-Gi-Oh just copied MTG, that's why it came 3 years later.



I know right?


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## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2012)

Yugi debut 1999

MTG 1993... yeah 3 years.


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## Voyeur (Jul 26, 2012)

1. Magic, it's more complicated in my opinion and its funner. You can also make a variety of decks with its colors and types of cards.

2. Magic by a long shot, Pre mending Planeswalkers are at least universe+. Some planes walkers have almost caused planes (universes in Magic) to collapse due to their presence alone before the Mending.


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## Solrac (Jul 26, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Yugi debut 1999
> 
> MTG 1993... yeah 3 years.



actually yugioh as a whole started in 1997.


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## Xelloss (Jul 26, 2012)

As a game it started on 1999, if you want to go that was mtg is based on dungeons and thats from 1970.


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## familyparka (Jul 26, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> Yugi debut 1999
> 
> MTG 1993... yeah 3 years.



It's ok I gave them handicap


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## Xiammes (Jul 26, 2012)

randomsurfer said:


> Sure...Yugioh is so good that it's not even the best selling card game in Japan, the country that created it. Yugioh is generally a bad game that's mostly played by kids and thugs. Some card shops I know of stopped selling the card game due to the large amount of stealing and mugging with those crowds.



Wait people actually steal cards past elementary school? That is some petty shit.


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## Voyeur (Jul 26, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Wait people actually steal cards past elementary school? That is some petty shit.



You would be amazed, due to the value of some cards people will actually try to steal cards from others or if they want a certain card and they know you have it. Had a page of my Magic rare binder stolen before.


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## Xiammes (Jul 26, 2012)

I had cards stolen all the time from me when I was little, but I haven't heard of any cards being stolen since elementary.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 26, 2012)

For Yugioh, it's not just stolen like reach into your bag when you're not looking, there are people who wait a block away from the card shop and when you get out, they jump on you and then forcibly take your cards.


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## Baroxio (Jul 26, 2012)

Whoever spends money on Yugioh is kinda dumb. Internet exists now. Just go to duelingnetwork.com.

Build any deck you like and face off against whoever you want. With the internet, Yugioh wins.

Plus, the yugioh anime was awesome.


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## RosenWitch (Jul 26, 2012)

randomsurfer said:


> And how exactly does guinness find out that it's the most selling card game? Yugioh might edge magic slightly in sales in USA but magic is a global card game that's printed in English, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Italian, French, Spanish, etc.


That's cute. Yu-Gi-Oh! is also played globally, and printed in more than several languages.


> For Yugioh, it's not just stolen like reach into your bag when you're not looking, there are people who wait a block away from the card shop and when you get out, they jump on you and then forcibly take your cards.


Ridiculous. You've such extremes on MtG's side, as well. Don't single out Yu-Gi-Oh! as the only card game targeted by fraud and larceny when Wizard's own employees have stolen _very_ gratuitous sums of money from storage. Theft and aggression are inevitable when those pieces of cardboard are worth hundreds of dollars.

Back on topic, as somebody who plays both, I enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh! more as a whole by a slight margin, even though I'm still a huge fan of Magic, a more balanced game (especially as of late).

Secondly, Platinum Angel soloes.


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## Light (Jul 26, 2012)

Baroxio said:


> Whoever spends money on Yugioh is kinda dumb. Internet exists now. Just go to duelingnetwork.com.
> 
> Build any deck you like and face off against whoever you want. With the internet, Yugioh wins.
> 
> Plus, the yugioh anime was awesome.



Because dueling network occasionally has tournaments where you can win money right?


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## familyparka (Jul 26, 2012)

Light said:


> Because dueling network occasionally has tournaments where you can win money right?



The best part of this is that it's also copied from MTG, we had the Gatherer Online years before that shitty internet duel simulator started being designed lol


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## Light (Jul 26, 2012)

familyparka said:


> The best part of this is that it's also copied from MTG, we had the Gatherer Online years before that shitty internet duel simulator started being designed lol



Or maybe they just made a way for people who didn't want to make decks all over the place and pay a lot of money to play for free.


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## hojou (Jul 27, 2012)

familyparka said:


> The best part of this is that it's also copied from MTG, we had the Gatherer Online years before that shitty internet duel simulator started being designed lol



Really -_- wasn't there online poker? For god sakes anything that becomes popular usually gets there own online thing. Before dn there was a shitty yugioh duel site that cost money.  You sound jelly that magic is slowly getting less popular. Its a great collecting card game but terrible for having fun.


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## Xelloss (Jul 27, 2012)

I have more fun with magic that with Yugi.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 27, 2012)

RosenWitch said:


> Ridiculous. You've such extremes on MtG's side, as well. Don't single out Yu-Gi-Oh! as the only card game targeted by fraud and larceny when Wizard's own employees have stolen _very_ gratuitous sums of money from storage. Theft and aggression are inevitable when those pieces of cardboard are worth hundreds of dollars.
> 
> Back on topic, as somebody who plays both, I enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh! more as a whole by a slight margin, even though I'm still a huge fan of Magic, a more balanced game (especially as of late).
> 
> Secondly, Platinum Angel soloes.




Yes, it happens for all card games but the key word is frequency. There has never been any other card games I have seen to have such bad reputation. Some card shops have literally stopped selling them and prohibit them from being played there.


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## Geralt of Rivia (Jul 27, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> I had cards stolen all the time from me when I was little, but I haven't heard of any cards being stolen since elementary.



I stole a Raigeki from someone right when he was dueling back when it was extremely prized. 

Now I play thief classes in MMOs.


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## Xelloss (Jul 27, 2012)

Gold Sarcophagus (Pharaoh’s Tour & Shonen Jump) – $2,195.00 or $399.00

An exact figure on the price of the most valuable Magic: The Gathering card is unavailable, but collectors have paid $15,000 for lesser Black Lotus cards.

this picture


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## Kevin T (Jul 27, 2012)

To have cards as common as Black Lotus of which there exists thousands of in each edition it was printed, selling for $15,000 only proves the stupidity of the community. I'm sorry, but it does. Especially since the card have only dropped in value since.

YGO! is the most popular of the two,  in 2006 and ever since with each application they've made. In other words YGO! sold more cards in 7 years than M:TG in 13 years, which is especially impressive since M:TG was the first and originality tends to be praised.

To the thread.

1. I enjoy both games for what they are and I feel that comparing them is like comparing Chess to Backgammon. Some days I feel like playing M:TG others like YGO!. Neither of the game is insanely strategical or skill-dependent, but they're both fun.

2. YGO!. In M:TG you have infinite loops (allowing for any finite damage you decide) but in YGO! you have actual infinite damage. YGO! also have creator deities and Lovecraftian horrors sealed in other dimensions. Pre-melding Planeswalkers can only destroy planes (small dimensions) by a chain-reaction draining the plane from mana. Since planes can't exist without mana. They never destroyed planets or continents, unless you count the mana-drain planar collapse side effects.


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## Xiammes (Jul 27, 2012)

Baroxio said:


> Whoever spends money on Yugioh is kinda dumb. Internet exists now. Just go to duelingnetwork.com.
> 
> Build any deck you like and face off against whoever you want. With the internet, Yugioh wins.
> 
> Plus, the yugioh anime was awesome.



duelingnetwork is shit for competitive dueling, it is very convenient for testing out a deck before spending the huge amount to play online. It is perfect causal dueling too.



> I stole a Raigeki from someone right when he was dueling back when it was extremely prized.



I'll admit that I "borrowed" a complete set of exodia from my cousin to show off in school, I had intended to give it back to him. Man o man did I get in trouble.

I hated my elementary years, I wouldn't trade my Blue Eyes I got from a starter deck for a holo first edition Blastoise(which would have been a great trade for me, but my interest for pokemon cards was gone), the kid forced me down and stole the card right in the middle of the playground. Cards of all kind were banned at school so I couldn't get help from the teachers about a theft.

Its just super petty shit.


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## Calamity (Jul 27, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> duelingnetwork is shit for competitive dueling,



Agreed. 
I wished they'd just make it totally automated.


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## Xiammes (Jul 27, 2012)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Agreed.
> I wished they'd just make it totally automated.



Fully automated no, I like the way dueling network is set up, but it shouldn't be a basis for any kind of competitive dueling. You could have 3 Tyler the Great Warrior when there is only one is existence.


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## Xelloss (Jul 27, 2012)

Kevin T said:


> To have cards as common as Black Lotus of which there exists thousands of in each edition it was printed, selling for $15,000 only proves the stupidity of the community. I'm sorry, but it does. Especially since the card have only dropped in value since.



And this shows how little you know about mtg, in 1997 a Mint quality Black lotus cost 300 us, nowadays a Mind quality is around 25,000 and there are just 4 confirmed to exist. And black lotus was just printed in alpha and beta sets.

Popularity is never quality and 1 prize vs 


    1994: Mensa Select Award winner[19]
    1994: Origins Awards for Best Fantasy or Science Fiction Board game of 1993 and Best Graphic Presentation of a Board game of 1993[20]
    1994: Origins Award for the Legends expansion as Best Game Accessory[19]
    1995: Deutscher Spiele Preis special award for new game mechanics[21]
    1995: Italian Gaming Society Gioco dell'Anno award winner[19]
    1996: Super As d'Or award for "Best New Game Concept and Genre Introduced in France"[19]
    1997: InQuest Fan Award for Best CCG Expansion for the Weatherlight expansion[19]
    1998 Origins Award for the Urza's Saga expansion as Collectible Card Game Expansion of the Year[22]
    1999: Inducted alongside Richard Garfield into the Origins Hall of Fame[22]
    2003: Games Magazine selected Magic for its Games Hall of Fame[23]
    2005: Origins Award for the Ravnica: City of Guilds expansion as Collectible Card Game Expansion of the Year[24]
    2009: Origins Award for the Shards of Alara expansion as Collectible Card Game Expansion of the Year[25]
    2012: Origins Award for the Innistrad expansion as Collectible Card Game Expansion of the Year[26]

About combos

Silver Queen, Heartstone, and Ashnod's Altar, Sliver Legion

Infinite power/toughness slivers number on the infinite.


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## DeathScream (Jul 27, 2012)

Magic: Mainly because it 1st Fantasy RPG card came(far as i remember), thus the number of cards, strategies, tournaments thus the planeswalker PC game is better than YGTCG Games(minus Forbidden Memmories)

Yu-Gi-Oh was Awesome back in the days when both anime and Cards were related to Konami, now its useless thx to the Banned Cards, childish community and the lack of Good Games and criativity.

and i've played YGH like a crack addict when i was a kid

(edit: Xellos can you send to the me Full img of your av?)


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## Kevin T (Jul 27, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> And this shows how little you know about mtg,


Lol.



Xelloss said:


> in 1997 a Mint quality Black lotus cost 300 us, nowadays a Mind quality is around 25,000 and there are just 4 confirmed to exist.


The Black Lotus that sold for $25,000 was the BGS 9.5 alpha, the best rated version in the world.

 And those are not selling.

You also have your facts twisted. In alpha-unlimited around 10,000 Black Lotus cards are estimated to have been printed.



Xelloss said:


> And black lotus was just printed in alpha and beta sets.


And Unlimited, and Collector's Edition.



Xelloss said:


> Popularity is never quality and 1 prize vs
> 
> 
> 1994: Mensa Select Award winner[19]
> ...


None of those awards are anything exceptional. A lot of them, like Mensa Select, is given to the first variant of a game and would've been given to YGO! as well if not for this rule.



Xelloss said:


> About combos
> 
> Silver Queen, Heartstone, and Ashnod's Altar, Sliver Legion
> 
> Infinite power/toughness slivers number on the infinite.


That's unlimited, not infinite. M:TG doesn't have infinity like YGO! does.

Unlimited means that you are allowed to choose any number you want. A million, a billion, or a googolplex. But any number you choose will be less than infinity.


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## Xelloss (Jul 27, 2012)

... I choose a infinity of slivers, I sacrifice a unlimited with acid sliver

There goes your damage.

Oh yeah use ebay to track transction, because you know ebay publish the sales of each person, you can't disprove that claim, the same way you can't prove that yugi more expensive card is sold, and lets not go on the moxs.


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## Kevin T (Jul 27, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> ... I choose a infinity of slivers


Doesn't work that way. You can't loop an action infinity times, because infinity isn't a number.





Xelloss said:


> Oh yeah use ebay to track transction, because you know ebay publish the sales of each person, you can't disprove that claim, the same way you can't prove that yugi more expensive card is sold, and lets not go on the moxs.


What are you talking about? There are mint Alpha Black Lotus for under $5,000 with "Buy it now" that aren't selling.

Anyhow, Cyber-Stein sold for $23,000 a few years back when only 2 of them existed.

Link removed

Obviously it's not worth anything now when it has been released in Standard Decks, as well as another 10 in SJC of them were handed out as Tournament prizes.


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## Voyeur (Jul 27, 2012)

Kevin T said:


> Doesn't work that way. You can't loop an action infinity times, because infinity isn't a number.



Except it's actually possible do an infinite amount of something. Saguine Bonds = When you gain life, target opponent loses that much life, and a card with an effect that says Target player loses X amount of life and you gain that much amount of life, that combination right there has potential to do infinity damage since both effects won't stop. Or Niv-Mizzet and Curiosity combo, Niv-Mizzet is a red/blue Dragon wizard with an effect: *Whenever you draw a card, Niv-Mizzet deals one damage to target creature or player.* Curiosity:* Whenever enchanted creature you control deals damage to a player, draw a card.* Theoretically, it can do infinite damage, however this is only limited due to the Life total of the player being dealt damage, and the number of cards you have in your library.

EDIT: 




> What are you talking about? There are mint Alpha Black Lotus for under $5,000 with "Buy it now" that aren't selling.
> 
> Anyhow, Cyber-Stein sold for $23,000 a few years back when only 2 of them existed.
> 
> Link removed



Okay, and? Most people aren't willing to drop several thousands of dollars over one card that gives you 3 mana for 0.




> Obviously it's not worth anything now when it has been released in Standard Decks, as well as another 10 in SJC of them were handed out as Tournament prizes.



That happens to every card that gets mass printed. Jace, Memory Adepts used to run almost $50 at their highest when he came out. Now he dropped to almost 7 dollars due to the reprints every year. Cards also drop in price when people find ways to make the card's effect lose its value by finding alternatives.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 28, 2012)

Kevin T,

First of all, show me the source of your proof that that many Black Lotus were made? I seriously doubt your number and also, CE does not count cause it's not a real card. They're squared bordered and used as a proxy for a real card.

About the price of Black Lotus, it certainly did fall a slight bit from its height about 5-6 years ago when alot more people played vintage but the card is still alot more expensive than it was excluding that period of time. Overall, the card has gone up from when it was first made along with many other older cards, unlike Yugioh. The way they reprint stuff, Konami might as well as tell their customers to bent over.

Also, there is no point of comparing the $25,000 bgs 9.5 graded card to those recent psa graded cards cause any knowledgeable collectors will tell you that psa grading is garbage. There have been many instances in which cards graded psa 10 have large visible flaws. Despite that, a few collectors agree that for PSA grading, if a card is graded psa 9, it gets little to no premium, a PSA 10 will get you a large premium (not as much as a bgs 9.5), every other grading below a 9 loses value.

Voyeur,

Are you really saying that the Jace, Memory Adepts is being reprinted every year? The current set, M13 is the first reprint so I don't know where you get that info from and the rarity stays the same. The reason the card dropped so much is simply because the card sucks and nobody ever used it in tournament worthy decks.


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## Kevin T (Jul 28, 2012)

Voyeur said:


> Except it's actually possible do an infinite amount of something. Saguine Bonds = When you gain life, target opponent loses that much life, and a card with an effect that says Target player loses X amount of life and you gain that much amount of life, that combination right there has potential to do infinity damage since both effects won't stop. Or Niv-Mizzet and Curiosity combo, Niv-Mizzet is a red/blue Dragon wizard with an effect: *Whenever you draw a card, Niv-Mizzet deals one damage to target creature or player.* Curiosity:* Whenever enchanted creature you control deals damage to a player, draw a card.* Theoretically, it can do infinite damage, however this is only limited due to the Life total of the player being dealt damage, and the number of cards you have in your library.
> 
> EDIT:


No, that's not theoretically infinite damage. Let's look at the rules.

"104.4b If the game somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw."

But let's not even go there.

Niv-Mizzet, Curiosity: Can only deal as much damage as cards in your deck.

How many cards can you have in your deck? It's limited to the cards the player can properly shuffle for 3 minutes?

I'd be surprised if you could manage a thousand cards, not only not infinitely many cards but so few that you'd run out of cards and lose before you could even hit 8,000 damage.

So not only does the game prevent actual endless loops by the rules, they also prevent you from doing astronomical damage with the Niv-Mizzet Curiosity combo.



Voyeur said:


> Okay, and? Most people aren't willing to drop several thousands of dollars over one card that gives you 3 mana for 0.


Value is determined by demand. If no one is willing to pay $3 for a card then it's not worth that.



randomsurfer said:


> Kevin T,
> 
> First of all, show me the source of your proof that that many Black Lotus were made? I seriously doubt your number and also, CE does not count cause it's not a real card. They're squared bordered and used as a proxy for a real card.


Alpha: 2,6 million cards
Beta reprint: 7,3 million cards
Unlimited reprint: 40 million cards

Each pack of 15 cards contains 1 random rare. There are a total of 116 rares in the set.

Alpha: 2 600 000/(15*116) = 1 494
Beta: 7 300 000/(15*116) = 4 195
Unlimited: 40 000 000/(15*116) = 22 988

A total of 28 677 Black Lotuses in Alpha-Unlimited. Now of course some were destroyed, so 10,000 are a fair estimation.



randomsurfer said:


> About the price of Black Lotus, it certainly did fall a slight bit from its height about 5-6 years ago when alot more people played vintage but the card is still alot more expensive than it was excluding that period of time. Overall, the card has gone up from when it was first made along with many other older cards, unlike Yugioh. The way they reprint stuff, Konami might as well as tell their customers to bent over.


Konami went out publicly and said that their cards were meant to be played and not stashed in a safe somewhere, and that they didn't want to make the game unfair for those who couldn't afford rare cards.

Are there rare YGO! cards? Most definitely. Especially the SJC prize cards, even though they are reprinted.

As for M:TG reprints of Black Lotus, see Collector's Edition. They go for around $50 - $100.



randomsurfer said:


> Also, there is no point of comparing the $25,000 bgs 9.5 graded card to those recent psa graded cards cause any knowledgeable collectors will tell you that psa grading is garbage. There have been many instances in which cards graded psa 10 have large visible flaws. Despite that, a few collectors agree that for PSA grading, if a card is graded psa 9, it gets little to no premium, a PSA 10 will get you a large premium (not as much as a bgs 9.5), every other grading below a 9 loses value.




The most valuable sports cards in the world, which has sold for many millions of dollars are PSA graded. It's by no means garbage.

People don't grade their cards for their quality, but rater to prove that they're authentic. Because any Joe can go and have a Black Lotus printed for under $10.

But a Black Lotus Alpha (the rarest) rated PSA 9 Mint isn't selling for $4,700. So we know for a fact that it isn't worth that much.

As for PSA 10 vs BGS 9.5

, 

EDIT: According to my friend who collects M:TG cards, BGS is better to find out the quality of the card, while PSA is better at finding out if the card is fake or has been trimmed.


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## hojou (Jul 28, 2012)

Magic players will never feel the terror of 0 turn wind up loop.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 28, 2012)

1) Explain to me how dividing the total number of cards printed by the product of the number of cards per pack and the number of rares per set gets you the number of cards each rare are printed when wizards stated they had mistakes in their card printing resulting in unequal amount of rares being printed? And if you're right about it, I'm sure that 10,000 is still an overestimation not simply because of its age but because mtg practically created collectible card games and before that most people don't have any idea that it would be that big and much more were thrown away. In addition, the so called rediculous price of the card has to do with the rarity of its condition because card sleeves weren't made back then and because magic players and collectors on average has larger disposable income.

2) Stopping saying CE are reprints. They are not real cards and not tournament legal unless the shop accepts proxy cards and if the shop does accept proxy cards, I can just take a blank card and write its name on it or print it's picture on a card and it would work just perfectly fine.

3) How about instead of reading the comments of certain sports card collectors, why don't you look at the completed sales result to see the difference. Last month, there's a bgs 9.5 alpha black lotus sold for $28,000 and here's the link: 


Also, I don't know what qualifies your friend as an expert in graded mtg cards but my experience with it is that they're both not that really reliable in verifying the authenticity of the cards. So unless you can tell us his credentials, his opinion has as much truth as mine since I have been actively playing, trading, and collecting mtg cards for a long time.


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## Gig (Jul 28, 2012)

Magic is a far superior game since from my experience, you can't just win a game from a single top deck, when you're completely behind in card advantage in both hand and field. 

This simply doesn't happen in magic, at least not current format magic, as card advantage and resource control is far more important as cards actually have costs to be used.


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## Zeno (Jul 28, 2012)

As a verse Yu-Gi-Oh! has Horakthy. GG.


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## Light (Jul 28, 2012)

And Horakthy has done...?


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## Xiammes (Jul 28, 2012)

Light said:


> And Horakthy has done...?



Universal via powerscaling, casually wiped Zorc off the face of the planet after Zorc had just solo'd some of the most powerful monsters in the verse.


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## Light (Jul 28, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Universal via powerscaling, casually wiped Zorc off the face of the planet after Zorc had just solo'd some of the most powerful monsters in the verse.



That makes no sense. The Egyptian gods are weaker than Blue Eyes who is about a city buster. Dragon Master Night should be about Multi-Mountain-island based on powerscaling. There is no way Horakthy's powerscaling goes that high.


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## Xiammes (Jul 28, 2012)

Light said:


> That makes no sense. The Egyptian gods are weaker than Blue Eyes who is about a city buster. Dragon Master Night should be about Multi-Mountain-island based on powerscaling. There is no way Horakthy's powerscaling goes that high.



Its from other beings in the universe, The creator of light is the most powerful being in the series and Yugioh has universals. Powerscaling is weird for Yugioh, by hierarchy, the three Egyptian gods are supposed to be stronger then Star Bustering monsters, but that is just wack man.


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## Light (Jul 28, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Its from other beings in the universe, The creator of light is the most powerful being in the series and Yugioh has universals. Powerscaling is weird for Yugioh, by hierarchy, the three Egyptian gods are supposed to be stronger then Star Bustering monsters, but that is just wack man.



What other universals? Some other information was like posted a few pages back but it all seemed like hype and hyperbole.


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## Zeno (Jul 28, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Its from other beings in the universe, The creator of light is the most powerful being in the series and Yugioh has universals. Powerscaling is weird for Yugioh, by hierarchy, the three Egyptian gods are supposed to be stronger then Star *Bustering* monsters, but that is just wack man.



This goes right in with Zaru's argumentation 

Horakthy is supposed to be nigh-omnipotent.


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## Xiammes (Jul 28, 2012)

Light said:


> What other universals? Some other information was like posted a few pages back but it all seemed like hype and hyperbole.



From that Duel Terminal respect thread.


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## Light (Jul 28, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> From that Duel Terminal respect thread.



I never noticed that thread before. But it says Sophia restarted the duel terminal world. It doesn't say universe.


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## Lucifeller (Jul 29, 2012)

Gleemax makes everything moot, anyway.

Seriously, though, the last pre-Mending Planeswalker left is Nicol Bolas, and he was ridiculously weakened, and he shattered the plane of Alara to pieces and created a conflux vortex when the planes started colliding against each other just so he could eat its energies and recover his power.

That's right, he provoked a miniature Big Crunch just to power up. While in a weakened state.

After he recovered his power, he was so ungodly powerful that the only way Ajani (a guy who can raze landscapes to the ground with no effort) could find to stop him was conjure an avatar of Bolas which mirrored him exactly, and the two Bolases ended up swallowed by a rift as they fought, disappearing. Bolas later reappears, having apparently defeated the copy and being no worse for wear.

Now keep in mind Bolas used to be more or less a pile of shit before the Phyrexian invasion, when there were planeswalkers bigger and meaner than he was. He was the strongest of the Dragons, and had a Planeswalker's spark, but he was so irrelevant in the grand scheme of things that Urza didn't even bother calling upon him to fight Phyrexia.

And that's not counting how it took three pre-Mending planeswalkers to seal away the Eldrazi, which are basically Lovecraftian Outer Gods in lawyer friendly form. And then there's Yawgmoth who was literally eating planeswalkers left and right when he finally stopped the Orcus on his throne act.

That's not to mention how Yawgmoth was meant to WIN the war. He only lost because Commodore Guff, a planeswalkers whose hobby was collecting books and paraphernalia detailing the ultimate fate of everything everywhere ever, took an eraser and literally deleted his victory from the books of the multiverse's fate. That's right, an old mad codger with an eraser stopped the Magic equivalent oF Azathoth. Mainly because what Guff had was an actual copy of the plot of the Invasion storyline - he could break the fourth wall. That's kinda hard to match even by YGO standards, because it's the equivalent of him simply taking the card representing each of YGO's gods and ripping it up, then mooning you.

Not saying Magic would win easily, but it'd be a very close fight. The powers at work in both are stupidly great.


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## Kevin T (Jul 29, 2012)

randomsurfer said:


> 1) Explain to me how dividing the total number of cards printed by the product of the number of cards per pack and the number of rares per set gets you the number of cards each rare are printed when wizards stated they had mistakes in their card printing resulting in unequal amount of rares being printed? And if you're right about it, I'm sure that 10,000 is still an overestimation not simply because of its age but because mtg practically created collectible card games and before that most people don't have any idea that it would be that big and much more were thrown away. In addition, the so called rediculous price of the card has to do with the rarity of its condition because card sleeves weren't made back then and because magic players and collectors on average has larger disposable income.


Cards Printed / Card in a Pack = Packs Printed

All cards were put in packs of 15, one of those 15 was a random rare card.

The chances of that card being a specific rare card is 1/116.



> 2) Stopping saying CE are reprints. They are not real cards and not tournament legal unless the shop accepts proxy cards and if the shop does accept proxy cards, I can just take a blank card and write its name on it or print it's picture on a card and it would work just perfectly fine.


It's called a reprint.



> 3) How about instead of reading the comments of certain sports card collectors, why don't you look at the completed sales result to see the difference. Last month, there's a bgs 9.5 alpha black lotus sold for $28,000 and here's the link:


What does that have to do with whose the best grader? That's the argument, remember?



Gig said:


> Magic is a far superior game since from my experience, you can't just win a game from a single top deck, when you're completely behind in card advantage in both hand and field.


That's not the case in the current format of YGO!. Everyone runs strategy decks. Well maybe not the 8 year old kid who just got a starter deck, but you know what I mean.


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## Kevin T (Jul 29, 2012)

Lucifeller said:


> Gleemax makes everything moot, anyway.
> 
> Seriously, though, the last pre-Mending Planeswalker left is Nicol Bolas, and he was ridiculously weakened, and he shattered the plane of Alara to pieces and created a conflux vortex when the planes started colliding against each other just so he could eat its energies and recover his power.
> 
> ...


1. Plane =/= universe, not even close.
2. Mana-draining planar collapse =/= being able to bust a universe/galaxy/planet with sheer power. There's a reason why Yawgmoth needed armies of Slivers.

PM Planeswalkers destroyed mountains and landscapes when they battled, not planets.

Guff's ability is a NLF and he was still killed. Besides Horakthy would in his omniscience find out about his ability and erase him from existence before he'd know what happened and that's assuming that his ability would affect him in the first place.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 29, 2012)

Dude, did you just skimp over my post and missed my point or are you just ignoring it?

In the first paragraph, rather than asking how you came up with the calculation (which you repeated for no reason), I was stating that it was flawed because the amount of each rares being printed are different and because I think the estimation of the surviving cards, especially in good condition, are much lower (see my previous post for the explanation).

As for your comment on the CE, no it's not a reprint. Magic the gathering is a card game and a reprint would be a reprinting of the card that can be played in tournaments, assuming its not banned. A CE is as tournament legal as me writing the name of the card on a blank card and even if you stubbornly refer it as a reprint, it does not affect the rarity and the value of the real card.

As for your last comment, I'm on a point where I can't seem to convince you that BGS is better than PSA grading for mtg card game so I refer back to your original point where you stated that the card has lost its value from $25,000 to whatever low value the PSA one can sell and point out that recently another BGS 9.5 black lotus was sold for over $28,000. Therefore, your claim on the huge drop in the card value is incorrect.


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Jul 29, 2012)

Kevin T said:


> 1. Plane =/= universe, not even close.



Except you're wrong.



> In Magic: The Gathering, planes are parallel universes in the Multiverse (which used to be referred to as Dominia.) Planes are often confused with planets by Magic players, because most planes are named after their primary planets. The two main categories of planes are natural planes and artificial planes.
> 
> Dominia was the general name of the set of infinite planes that make up the Multiverse where the stories of the Magic: The Gathering occur. According to an "Ask Wizards" article recently, the term 'Dominia' is no longer being used to define the Magic: The Gathering Multiverse.
> Each plane is a universe. However, many gameplayers confuse the term 'plane' to a planet when, in fact, it is the entire universe where that certain planet is located. This is because the name of the universe/plane is similar to the name of the main/primary planet.
> ...


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## Voyeur (Jul 29, 2012)

randomsurfer said:


> Kevin T,
> 
> 
> Voyeur,
> ...



What I meant to say was reprints make the cards value drop. I shouldn't have used that specific card since it was only reprinted once, but the value still dropped as a result. ANd Jace, Memory Adepts do NOT suck, they just don't compare to Mind Sculptor.



Kevin T said:


> No, that's not theoretically infinite damage. Let's look at the rules.
> 
> "104.4b If the game somehow enters a ?loop? of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don?t result in a draw."
> 
> ...



Except I already explained the limits of that combo, also try again. I already posted  another example of an infinite loop with the backing of a judge.  You can spout rules all you want, but as long as a judge makes a decision, that decision  takes precedence.



> Value is determined by demand. If no one is willing to pay $3 for a card then it's not worth that.



While this is true, demand isn't simply the only variable that determines a card's price. The supply does as well.



> Alpha: 2,6 million cards
> Beta reprint: 7,3 million cards
> Unlimited reprint: 40 million cards
> 
> ...



Where did you get 28,677? Nothing from that math points to that number. If anything, 10,000 is still a bit too much considering there are 12,246 unique cards.



> EDIT: According to my friend who collects M:TG cards, BGS is better to find out the quality of the card, while PSA is better at finding out if the card is fake or has been trimmed.



Unless your friend  is certified in something, his word is not very credible.



Kevin T said:


> Cards Printed / Card in a Pack = Packs Printed
> 
> All cards were put in packs of 15, one of those 15 was a random rare card.
> 
> The chances of that card being a specific rare card is 1/116.



cept that's not how it is anymore due to the Mythic rarity, and even then some sets are still being reprinted. Alpha, Beta and Unlimited? Not so much, those ceased printing in '94.





> It's called a reprint.


Get it through your head, Collector's editions aren't reprints. 

Unlimited and Beta editions are reprints of Black Lotus.Wizards of the Coast site: 




Kevin T said:


> 1. Plane =/= universe, not even close.
> 2. Mana-draining planar collapse =/= being able to bust a universe/galaxy/planet with sheer power. There's a reason why Yawgmoth needed armies of Slivers.



1. Wizards of the Coast says otherwise: 





> Most planes are spheres with an atmosphere and one or more suns and moons; they resemble planets. But there is no law of physics common to all planes of the Multiverse. Planes can be infinite expanses of matter, tiny specks of empty space, or logic-defying inversions of normal reality. A plane can contain an entire, sprawling universe or nothing at all.






> PM Planeswalkers destroyed mountains and landscapes when they battled, not planets.
> 
> Guff's ability is a NLF and he was still killed. Besides Horakthy would in his omniscience find out about his ability and erase him from existence before he'd know what happened and that's assuming that his ability would affect him in the first place.



PM Planeswalkers created planes as a normal ability ( can't say casually as this was a taxing feat), what are you going on about?  Bolas nearly shattered the Plane of Madara from his presence ALONE. The sheer number of planeswalkers outnumber Yu-Gi-Oh's universe?- level being.


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## randomsurfer (Jul 29, 2012)

You are entitled to your opinion about that card but in my book, if a card is not good enough to be in a tournament worthy deck then it's not good. There has been three different jaces made and that is the only one that has not been used in tier 1 deck.


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## Lucifeller (Jul 30, 2012)

Kevin T said:


> 1. Plane =/= universe, not even close.
> 2. Mana-draining planar collapse =/= being able to bust a universe/galaxy/planet with sheer power. There's a reason why Yawgmoth needed armies of Slivers.
> 
> PM Planeswalkers destroyed mountains and landscapes when they battled, not planets.
> ...



First off, just the act of putting Urza's powerstone eyes together was enough to completely annihilate Serra's Realm - by the way, that was a brilliant idea on Radiant's behalf, wasn't it? - there was nothing left in it, only a void. Which then Urza collapsed on itself. So yeah, PM Planeswalkers could crunch planes if they wanted to, and since planes were AT LEAST the size of a planet, and only grew larger from there...

And do note Urza wasn't even one of the strongest, just the most resourceful. He got his ass handed to him in direct fights by quite a few other planeswalkers, and even some non-Walkers like Radiant (although to be fair, since Radiant actually got more powerful the more winged beings were near her, and she was in the middle of her whole goddamn Angel army when she dueled Urza, she was probably gargantuan in power at the time), but when it came to constructing doomsday machines, which was his planeswalker gift, he was unmatched.

Compare to say, Taysir and Ravidel, who could crunch Dragons in direct fights, or even Dakkon Blackblade, who did have a Spark and was able to walk the planes, but never realized his potential.

Secondly, some planes contain entire constellations in the sky, so at the very least they are their own galaxy, if not bigger. Otherwise explains the SKY LITTERED WITH HUNDREDS OF STARS. Because, you know, for that to actually happen, you need to have at least a large galaxy, if not a small universe. And guess what - most planes do have stars in the sky. There's exceptions, but the bigger ones do.

Guff was killed because he was busy erasing the part where Yawgmoth won and didn't bother erasing his own death. It slipped his mind completely. And with that said, he was still powerful enough to create a giant library the size of a whole Plane which contained everything ever printed. His role is very specific, and he's not a NLF, he's an author avatar with 4th wall breaking powers. Discounting what he can do because it seems like a NLF to you isn't gonna cut it. Hell, in one of his cards he has a caricature of a Batman comic book floating around him... so yeah, when he says he has every literary work ever written in his library he's probably serious.

And Yawgmoth 'needed' armies because he pulled an Orcus for most of the invasion. When he actually got off his cloud-of-death-gas ass and got involved himself, everything in his way just died. Everything. He didn't NEED armies, he just thought he was too good to get involved himself. He was a cloud of black mana that killed everything it touched and then reanimated it under his control. He did that to the entire Metathran army gathered around one of the portals that were planeshifted in when the planar overlay started. Just like that. He needs armies... why exactly when he soloed an army of engineered soldiers just like that as soon as he entered Dominaria?

It took the White mana contained in Dominaria's Null Moon, concentrated and amplified through the Legacy Weapon, and shot at him in a giant laser beam, and THEN the Legacy Weapon ramming into him, to push him back through the portal and into Phyrexia, and that resulted in the death of everyone involved in that firing except Karn.

So basically, he takes a potshot head on from the Death Star's counterpart, he's still alive after that, and then he's rammed into and pushed into Phyrexia, where the soulbombs planted by Freyalise go off, and between that and the Legacy Weapon exploding in his face FINALLY kill him.

Or at least, so we think. Because while Wizards insists he's dead, there's still that event where Karona met him, in a wounded state in the wreckage of what was Phyrexia in the Onslaught block, and was scared silly of him.


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