# Deidara vs. Onoki



## Rocky (Oct 18, 2013)

Location/Distance
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: None


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 18, 2013)

Seems to me that Onoki is overall stronger than Deidara, but Deidara has tools to defeat Onoki nontheless. He can use the small guided birds to slip past Onoki's defenses, while he keeps him busy with bigger bombs, or he can alternatively use C4 and end the old man. 
On the flipside, all Onoki needs is 1 clean shot of Jinton, a longer range version and there is no defensive measure Deidara can take to keep himself safe other than just staying out of jinton's effective range, constantly moving.

I'd say this can go eitherway.


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## Kai (Oct 18, 2013)

Onoki annihilates. 

About to unleash his Jinton, prior to being stopped by Akatsuchi, he reminded Deidara not to forget how terrifying his particle style was.

His power and scale are on a completely different tier than Deidara's, and his flight speed could keep pace with Deidara without any issue. Furthermore, he knows everything about Deidara since he was a child and has vastly more experience than the young artist.

Onoki mid-difficulty.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2013)

Kai said:


> About to unleash his Jinton, prior to being stopped by Akatsuchi, he reminded Deidara not to forget how terrifying his particle style was.




I don't know about you, but the prospect of being run down by multiple guided high tier explosives is equally terrifying to me.

Deidara's bombs are  just as destructive as Jinton, but also alot more versatile. 



> His power and scale are on a completely different tier than Deidara's




Deidara is a casual village buster, so Onoki is most certainly not a tier or two ahead in "power and scale."

If it comes to it, C0 is far above anything Onoki has shown.




> Furthermore, he knows everything about Deidara since he was a child and has vastly more experience than the young artist.




They both demonstrated knowledge on each other during their fight, and the older more experienced fighter with unpredictable back problems doesn't necessarily always beat a young prodigy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (Oct 18, 2013)

I'd say Onooki more times then not. Onoki has shown he can keep up with as well as have Jinton which can destroy any clay creation Deidara makes and sends to attack along with golems to protect him from Deidara weaker attacks. I see Onoki landing a Jinton hit before Deidara landing a deadly blow.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2013)

I don't know, Rocky. . .Deidara seemed pretty panicked about Ohnoki resorting to _Jinton_ so quickly.

More than Ohnoki seemed panicked about Deidara at least.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2013)

He was more surprised that Onoki was resorting to his strongest abilities so shorty. That one scene isn't going to change my views. A linear Jinton beam and or cube is less frighting than, say, a horde of microscopic bombs transmissible by _air_ that detonate inside one's cells.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 18, 2013)

I think deidara can evade jinton better than onoki can evade guided c1. Onoki would have to manually touch and slow deidara down I feel.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2013)

When you consider that one can be survived by holding your breath for a minute?

I'd chose that over molecular disassembly any day.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> When you consider that one can be survived by holding your breath for a minute?
> 
> I'd chose that over molecular disassembly any day.




Holding your breath wouldn't stop microscopic bombs from entering through the multiple orifices of the body. There's a reason Deidara stands outside of his cloud when he uses the technique.

I'd also like to add that's it would be sort of stupid to create a technique designed to kill a super intelligent Ninja that has the drawback "can be countered by momentarily holding breath."


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Holding your breath wouldn't stop microscopic bombs from entering through the multiple orifices of the body.



The bombs have to be actively breathed in as Tobi stated, they don't just slip into anything they can fit through on their own (in an amount sufficient to injure, at least). There's a reason none of the trees in the area died when he used the technique.



> I'd also like to add that's it would be sort of stupid to create a technique designed to kill a super intelligent Ninja that has the drawback "can be countered by momentarily holding breath."



Designed to kill a super intelligent ninja _without knowledge on it_. . . .key point. Intelligence doesn't always make up for a lack of information.


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## Scarlet Ammo (Oct 18, 2013)

Oonoki can lift a meteorite and has the most haxx jutsu jinton. He should have no trouble winning this fight.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Designed to kill a super intelligent ninja _without knowledge on it_. . . .key point. Intelligence doesn't always make up for a lack of information.




Yeah, Onoki doesn't have knowledge on it...


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## Nikushimi (Oct 18, 2013)

Deidara has far greater versatility with C1 than Oonoki has with Jinton; although Jinton is faster, multiple guided explosives make dodging a lot more complicated.

They have virtually the same area of effect with their attacks and their flight speed was shown to be on the same level. One thing working against Oonoki is his age; we know he has back problems. If that problem manifests itself here, he's a goner.

But what really clinches this for me is C4. Oonoki has no way to detect the microscopic bombs. The technique has such a wide range, and Oonoki prefers to engage his opponents at short distances (relative to Deidara, who prefers the "keep out of reach" approach). For this reason, I don't think Oonoki has to worry about C3, because Deidara can't set that off near himself, but C4 is something Deidara can utilize at point-blank and spreads far enough that Oonoki really has no chance of clone feinting.

If Deidara is cornered, there's also a chance he could try to use CO, and Oonoki has no way to stop that explosion. His only option would be to deconstruct Deidara's body with Jinton before it detonates, but it's unclear if that would dismantle him safely or just cause him to blow up. I tend to think it would stop Deidara's body from detonating by deconstructing the mechanism for it, but if Deidara plays keep-away then Oonoki is racing against the clock to take him out with a direct hit, and I don't think the old man's odds are good.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't know, Rocky. . .Deidara seemed pretty panicked about Ohnoki resorting to _Jinton_ so quickly.
> 
> More than Ohnoki seemed panicked about Deidara at least.



Onoki didn't know about C4 though, which Deidara admitted he created to defeat Itachi, which presumably happened after he left his village to join Akatsuki(If he hadn't left already @ that time).

Sure, Onoki can fly out of its range to avoid C4, but that'd require him to have some knowledge.


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## DCI Kurusu (Oct 18, 2013)

C4 destroys Oonoki. Even with knowledge, the old fart won't be able to escape the radius.

Sasuke couldn't. Unless you can prove to me that Oonoki is three or four times faster than Sasuke at the time I'm sticking with Deidara.


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## Bonly (Oct 18, 2013)

DCI Kurusu said:


> C4 destroys Oonoki. Even with knowledge, the old fart won't be able to escape the radius.
> 
> *Sasuke couldn't.* Unless you can prove to me that Oonoki is three or four times faster than Sasuke at the time I'm sticking with Deidara.



But he did.


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2013)

Deidara was shitting himself at the thought of fighting Onoki, and for good reason. Deidara would have died as soon as he started fighting Onoki, if Onoki didn't have to worry about the safety of turtle island:
But he did
But he did

Than Deidara like the dumbass he is, was about to throw his little C4 Bomb into a Dust Release Technique, which would have just been atomized and him along with it. Basically Deidara was portrayed as a little angsty pupil who was about to get bitch slapped by his master. 

Let's also consider their portrayal in the Manga. Onoki was fighting powerful Kages & countering Hashirama and Madara level attacks. Meanwhile Deidara got bitch slapped by Kankuro, Omoi, and Sai, despite him having Sasori and Shin as back up. Kishi even had it stated that out of anyone in the entire alliance the only one who could oppose Jinton was another Jinton user Onoki.  So while no one in the alliance could step to Onoki, some third rate characters fodderized Deidara. There is no way Kishi wants readers to see Deidara as even remotely near Onoki's level. 

From a BD perspective 
-C1 gets casually blocked by even mini Rock Golems. 
-C2 probably can be blocked by large Rock Golems or Jinton can blow them away while simultaneously killing Deidara
-C3 won't work because it's a bomb that gets dropped on someone and Onoki is flying
-Large C4 won't work as it also gets dropped on someone and Onoki is flying
-CO takes too long to charge and Deidara would be blown away by Jinton before he could detonate

That leaves the only thing that might work is the Mini-C4, but because it's smaller it would have to land right in Onoki's face. To which I say good luck throwing a Mini-C4 bomb that perfectly at a someone whose flying as fast as Onoki, can use clones, can block with Goelms, someone who is several times more intelligent and experienced than Deidara,  or can atomoize the bomb with Jinton (which is what was about to happen in the manga). And I also say good luck to Deidara to last long enough to even pull out Min-C4 bomb, when he was going to be killed long before that, if not for Onoki not wanting to endanger turtle island in the manga-cannon.

On the flip side this Deidara has zero counter to Jinton and is basically dead the moment Onoki pulls it out. And he has no counter to Iwa Bushin attack him all at once  and is dead the moment the are pulled out. He also has no counter of having a Golem dropped on top of him via an Onoki flying at the same speed as him and is pretty much dead the moment that is brought out. So basically Onoki uses any Jutsu and Deidara dies, because Deidara's only defense is flight and Onoki is able to easily keep up with his speed.


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## blk (Oct 18, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He was more surprised that Onoki was resorting to his strongest abilities so shorty. That one scene isn't going to change my views. A linear Jinton beam and or cube is less frighting than, say, a horde of microscopic bombs transmissible by _air_ that detonate inside one's cells.



The problem is that Deidara won't even arrive to the point of using C4.

With the starting distance established in the OP, Onoki will win in seconds with this kind of Jinton [1].
There is no way that Deidara can avoid such a thing, which an injured and tired Onoki could use while flying and waver at high speed as he wanted [2].

Any attempt at counter-attacking from Deidara will be useless, because the bombs won't pass through the Jinton.

This is an extremely one-sided battle.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> -C1 gets casually blocked by even mini Rock Golems.
> -C2 probably can be blocked by large Rock Golems or Jinton can blow them away while simultaneously killing Deidara
> -C3 won't work because it's a bomb that gets dropped on someone and Onoki is flying
> -Large C4 won't work as it also gets dropped on someone and Onoki is flying
> -CO takes too long to charge and Deidara would be blown away by Jinton before he could detonate




The Golems are slabs of rock. They may provide a frontal defense to straight line attacks, but they won't cut it if Deidara simply maneuvers the bombs _around_ the Golems. Onoki would need an omnidirectional defense to completely protect himself from explosives of Deidara's caliber, as dodging isn't going to cut it against guided techniques. 




blk said:


> With the starting distance established in the OP, Onoki will win in seconds with this kind of Jinton [1






			
				Original Post said:
			
		

> Mindset: IC


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> He also has no counter of having a Golem dropped on top of him via an Onoki flying at the same speed as him



Whats the logic behind this ? 
You claim they fly @ the same speed.
You also claim that Deidara can't drop a bomb on Onoki because he is flying. 
But onoki can somehow drop a golem on Deidara ?

What kind of a double standart is this ?


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> -C3 won't work because it's a bomb that gets dropped on someone and Onoki is flying
> -Large C4 won't work as it also gets dropped on someone and Onoki is flying
> 
> 
> ...




If this isn't a classic example of bias effecting an argument, then what is....


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## kaminogan (Oct 18, 2013)

ohnoki can counter the bombs with doton, 

deidara could attack ohnoki with C3 only to find the real one charging a jinton obtuse triangle,

although deidara would probably notice this seeing as ohnoki wouldnt just die so easily,

the battle would last a long time, seeing as there attacks can be blocked and dodged easily,

deidara would probably run out of clay if anything else, 

although if ohnoki gets a sudden back pain deidara could use that as his chance,

for those saying C4,

the charge time is so large that ohnoki could fly away from the range easily,

 that and ohnoki could summon the rock golem to pound away at it, (rock golem is immune to C4 as well)

although the rock golem(s)   would have been destroyed by clay dragons/birds earlier,

any way i would give this to ohnoki,


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## blk (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Mindset: IC



Is there something not IC with what i proposed? Trying to win in the most safe and fast way possible seems rather IC to me.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2013)

blk said:


> Is there something not IC with what i proposed? Trying to win in the most safe and fast way possible seems rather IC to me.




Onoki didn't bring out that Jinton until he was well into the battle with Madara, after a flashback regarding his "Stone Will" and how he had the power to change the world. Oh, and this flashback happened because he thought he was going to die....

So no, it is not "IC" to open with that scale Jinton. It's not even IC for Onoki to open with Jinton at, considering Deidara's surprise that he was going to resort to it so quickly during their canon skirmish.


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## Kai (Oct 19, 2013)

It's pretty clear to anyone who reads the manga that Onoki is on a completely different level than Deidara in a similar manner that Kisame is on a completely different level than Zabuza.

Onoki called Deidara a punk for losing to "a kid from the Leaf" and Deidara said the situation was getting ridiculous that Onoki was resorting to his particle style.

Jinton eradicates anything Deidara tries. He has absolutely no counter to Onoki's range.

Muu>Onoki>Deidara


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2013)

Kai said:


> It's pretty clear to anyone who reads the manga that Onoki is on a completely different level than Deidara in a similar manner that Kisame is on a completely different level than Zabuza.




Not at all. Deidara beat Gaara, one of Onoki's fellow Kage. Zabuza isn't even close to Kage level.



> Onoki called Deidara a punk for losing to "a kid from the Leaf" and Deidara said the situation was getting ridiculous that Onoki was resorting to his particle style.




Sasuke Uchiha isn't just any kid from the leaf.




> Jinton eradicates anything Deidara tries. He has absolutely no counter to Onoki's range.




Jinton is a straight line beam, or cube. It's a very linear attack vs. Deidara's unpredictable, guided bombs.

Speaking of unpredictability, Onoki has random back spasms that could pretty much end the match right there.


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## Kai (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Not at all. Deidara beat Gaara, one of Onoki's fellow Kage. Zabuza isn't even close to Kage level.


Onoki is the most powerful and troublesome of the five Kage as observed by Madara.

And no, it is not about willpower. Madara outright stated Onoki's battle experience was showing itself rather clearly.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Sasuke Uchiha isn't just any kid from the leaf.


It's not about who he is talking about, it's about how he treats Deidara.

It's no different than how Kisame talks about Zabuza. Paying attention to how characters interact with each other tells a lot.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Jinton is a straight line beam, or cube. It's a very linear attack vs. Deidara's unpredictable, guided bombs.
> 
> Speaking of unpredictability, Onoki has random back spasms that could pretty much end the match right there.


Name a single bomb in Deidara's arsenal that can travel as fast as Onoki in the air. C0 is the only debatable factor here.

Deidara is not avoiding Jinton's range, and it shoots out significantly faster than any of Deidara's chakra types. If Onoki even so much grazes any of Deidara's hands, Deidara is immediately done for.

Jinton is the most devastating attack to ever emerge from the Hidden Rock. Deidara's efforts are pretty futile against an infinitely superior fighting style.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2013)

Kai said:


> Onoki is the most powerful and troublesome of the five Kage as observed by Madara.
> 
> And no, it is not about willpower. Madara outright stated Onoki's battle experience was showing itself rather clearly.




Yes it was about willpower. Madara said he needed to break Onoki's will. It wasn't about _battle_. Madara could have killed them all in seconds. He was playing games, he wasn't worried that Onoki's battle experience was a legitimate threat. He was just annoyed that Onoki was ruining his play time. 

The moment Madara felt like leaving the battle, the Gokage were off-paneled. 



> It's not about who he is talking about, it's about how he treats Deidara.
> 
> It's no different than how Kisame talks about Zabuza. Paying attention to how characters interact with each other tells a lot.




Are you seriously making the argument that one who acts superior is automatically so? 



> Name a single bomb in Deidara's arsenal that can travel as fast as Onoki in the air. C0 is the only debatable factor here.
> 
> Deidara is not avoiding Jinton's range, and it shoots out significantly faster than any of Deidara's chakra types. If Onoki even so much grazes any of Deidara's hands, Deidara is immediately done for.
> 
> Jinton is the most devastating attack to ever emerge from the Hidden Rock. Deidara's efforts are pretty futile against an infinitely superior fighting style.




Any of Deidara's C2 bombs would, and It's incredibly possible that Onoki wouldn't be able to keep track of the various C1 bombs Deidara can craft. 

Jinton speed is so ridiculously overrated. It's an an overt attack with a charge time, yet people speak of it as if it has Bijuudama's AoE. A Shadow Clone of Naruto had time to miss an attack, turn around, and still strike Muu before he could fire off a Jinton.

And like I said, Onoki has back problems that could emerge at any time and end the fight.


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## LogiaMaster666 (Oct 19, 2013)

I'm not even gonna bother reading stats or posts. Onooki stomps, he's a Kage. Deidara couldn't even beat pre mangekyo Sasuke.


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## Kai (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes it was about willpower. Madara said he needed to break Onoki's will. It wasn't about _battle_. Madara could have killed them all in seconds. He was playing games, he wasn't worried that Onoki's battle experience was a legitimate threat. He was just annoyed that Onoki was ruining his play time.
> 
> The moment Madara felt like leaving the battle, the Gokage were off-paneled.





*"Damn you Onoki. Looks like we're starting to see a difference in battle experience."*

Nobody said Onoki was a legitimate threat against Madara. He is legitimately the most powerful of the Gokage.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Are you seriously making the argument that one who acts superior is automatically so?


In the way Onoki talks to Deidara and Kisame talks about Zabuza?

Absolutely.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Any of Deidara's C2 bombs would, and It's incredibly possible that Onoki wouldn't be able to keep track of the various C1 bombs Deidara can craft.


There's as much bias in this post as what Turrin said.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Jinton speed is so ridiculously overrated. It's an an overt attack with a charge time, yet people speak of it as if it has Bijuudama's AoE. A Shadow Clone of Naruto had time to miss an attack, turn around, and still strike Muu before he could fire off a Jinton.


KCM Naruto with chakra arms and Gaara's platform striked Muu before he could fire Jinton.

That's a far cry from Deidara's C2 bombs which couldn't even tag Hebi Sasuke with a direct shot without land mines littering the surrounding area restricting his physical movements.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> And like I said, Onoki has back problems that could emerge at any time and end the fight.


Don't worry, Onoki can stop a meteor and carry the Turtle Island without back problems when he really tries (or he just straight ignores it). The back problem doesn't even register to Onoki when he puts his life on the line.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2013)

Kai said:


> Nobody said Onoki was a legitimate threat against Madara. He is legitimately the most powerful of the Gokage.




Or....

"Your combat experience finally begins to show itself."

That doesn't indicate that Onoki is outright superior to all of the Gokage. Depends on the translation. 




> In the way Onoki talks to Deidara and Kisame talks about Zabuza?
> 
> Absolutely.




So I guess Frieza was superior to the "filthy monkey trash" that was Super Saiyan Goku. 



> There's as much bias in this post as what Turrin said.




No.

Turrin said that Onoki can drop Golems on Deidara because they fly the same speed, but Deidara can't drop bombs on Onoki because he flies. 

I said guided bombs can maneuver around frontal defenses, and Deidara is clever enough to possibly slip bombs past Onoki, just as he did against Gaara.

So no, not even slightly. I don't even particularly care for Deidara.



> KCM Naruto with chakra arms and Gaara's platform striked Muu before he could fire Jinton.
> 
> That's a far cry from Deidara's C2 bombs which couldn't even tag Hebi Sasuke with a direct shot without land mines littering the surrounding area restricting his physical movements.




My argument is not that C2 will "blitz" before Jinton can fire. My argument is that Jinton isn't as unexpected and fast as people make it out to be. Deidara dodged a sand limb barrage from every which way in his fight with Gaara. Onoki's linear Jinton techniques aren't magically connecting just because. Deidara will clearly see him charging it up, and prepare himself to dodge. 



> Don't worry, Onoki can stop a meteor and carry the Turtle Island without back problems when he really tries (or he just straight ignores it). The back problem doesn't surface when Onoki puts his life on the line.




Onoki's back problems surfaced in his death match with Muu, and that would've cost him his life had Naruto not shown up.


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## Kai (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Or....
> 
> "Your combat experience finally begins to show itself."
> 
> That doesn't indicate that Onoki is outright superior to all of the Gokage. Depends on the translation.


Of course it does. "Your combat experience finally begins to show itself." 

How?

*"You used your weighted rock technique to stop Susano'o. And you even saved the Raikage."*

"Onoki is the true problem here." 

The writing is all over the wall.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> So I guess Frieza was superior to the "filthy monkey trash" that was Super Saiyan Goku.


DBZ character interactions when talking about Naruto character interactions? 



The relationship in question between characters isn't even remotely similar for a sound argument to be made.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Turrin said that Onoki can drop Golems on Deidara because they fly the same speed, but Deidara can't drop bombs on Onoki because he flies.
> 
> ...


Under what kind of logic does Deidara slipping bombs past Gaara means slipping C1 bombs past Onoki? Onoki is a horrible match for Deidara that Gaara can't even begin to step comparable game with.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> My argument is not that C2 will "blitz" before Jinton can fire. My argument is that Jinton isn't as unexpected and fast as people make it out to be. Deidara dodged a sand limb barrage from every which way in his fight with Gaara. Onoki's linear Jinton techniques aren't magically connecting just because. Deidara will clearly see him charging it up, and prepare himself to dodge.


Except Jinton fires more immediately at targets than either Gaara or Deidara can send their sand attacks or bombs respectively.

Jinton is simply on such a more advanced level, and so is Onoki's experience and knowledge compared to Deidara's.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Onoki's back problems surfaced in his death match with Muu, and that would've cost him his life had Naruto not shown up.


Yet it didn't surface when Onoki was taking the brunt of a meteor and carrying the Turtle Island, some of the most physically straining feats displayed in the manga.

The depth of Onoki's will can outright ignore his back pain.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2013)

Kai said:


> Of course it does. "Your combat experience finally begins to show itself."
> 
> How?
> 
> ...




Ok, I'll concede the point.




> DBZ character interactions when talking about Naruto character interactions?
> 
> 
> 
> The relationship in question between characters isn't even remotely similar for a sound argument to be made.




Your argument is: "Onoki speaks to Deidara with a superiority complex, and therefore is superior." What Manga I use has nothing to do with that logical fallacy. Hell, I don't even know if I would call it a fallacy, it just doesn't even make sense. The Raikage spoke to Sasuke as if he was some punk brat, Tobirama speaks to Hashirama as if he's a bumbling idiot, Obito thought he was superior to _everybody_, etc etc etc. Since when does Onoki acting like he's better make him automatically so? Onoki doesn't even have knowledge on one of Deidara's most powerful techniques. 



> Under what kind of logic does Deidara slipping bombs past Gaara means slipping C1 bombs past Onoki? Onoki is a horrible match for Deidara that Gaara can't even begin to step comparable game with.






Deidara and Onoki match up well. I'm not sure how a Golem that covers only the front or a straight-line Dust beam is a better defense than Gaara's omnidirectional sand shields and desert manipulation. 




> Except Jinton fires more immediately at targets than either Gaara or Deidara can send their sand attacks or bombs respectively.




Again: 

Jinton is a _linear_ attack. Straight line. Predictable. Gaara's sand and Deidara's bombs are fluid and spontaneous. If you have sufficient reflexes to avoid both, It's much harder to dodge the latter. 

Jinton's travel speed isn't overwhelming a flying Deidara if Sasuke's flicker speed couldn't blitz a grounded Deidara from a few meters out. 




> The depth of Onoki's will can outright ignore his back pain.




...What?

His back problems pop up at random times. They didn't appear when he was carrying a superlightweighted Turtle Island or stopping a metror. This doesn't mean he's automatically now, immune to them popping up at random times. They canonically do.


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## Kai (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Your argument is: "Onoki speaks to Deidara with a superiority complex, and therefore is superior." What Manga I use has nothing to do with that logical fallacy. Hell, I don't even know if I would call it a fallacy, it just doesn't even make sense. The Raikage spoke to Sasuke as if he was some punk brat, Tobirama speaks to Hashirama as if he's a bumbling idiot, Obito thought he was superior to _everybody_, etc etc etc. Since when does Onoki acting like he's better make him automatically so? Onoki doesn't even have knowledge on one of Deidara's most powerful techniques.


There's just a lack of consideration of context in all of your examples. Onoki's relationship to Deidara in strength is akin to Tobi to Itachi's and Kisame to Zabuza's. 

The former know everything about the latter, have a higher order as senpais (superiors), and are just flat out more powerful. The manga has reflected these relationships pretty openly.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Deidara and Onoki match up well. I'm not sure how a Golem that covers only the front or a straight-line Dust beam is a better defense than Gaara's omnidirectional sand shields and desert manipulation.


First of all, Onoki flies faster than any of Deidara's attacks so Deidara is looking at a situation where he's wasting an unfavorable amount of clay.

Secondly, Jinton as a beam or laser is leagues faster than attacks that need to be sent out or guided, like Gaara's sand or Deidara's bombs. 



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Again:
> 
> Jinton is a _linear_ attack. Straight line. Predictable. Gaara's sand and Deidara's bombs are fluid and spontaneous. If you have sufficient reflexes to avoid both, It's much harder to dodge the latter.
> 
> Jinton's travel speed isn't overwhelming a flying Deidara if Sasuke's flicker speed couldn't blitz a grounded Deidara from a few meters out.


Sasuke has absolutely no chance to Shunshin away from a Jinton assault either, so what's the use of setting the bar with a half measure?

We're going to have to just agree to disagree. I don't believe Deidara is avoiding Onoki's Jinton. If it so much grazes Deidara's hands it's no longer a discussion.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> ...What?
> 
> His back problems pop up at random times. They didn't appear when he was carrying a superlightweighted Turtle Island or stopping a metror. This doesn't mean he's automatically now, immune to them popping up at random times. They canonically do.


If you assume Onoki's back problems occur randomly, then what position are you in to state they can cost him the fight, or that they will happen at all?

Onoki's willpower has shown to endure more strenuous injuries than his back pain. He got up from getting knocked out for the count through sheer Will of Stone for crying out loud.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes it was about willpower. Madara said he needed to break Onoki's will. It wasn't about _battle_. Madara could have killed them all in seconds. He was playing games, he wasn't worried that Onoki's battle experience was a legitimate threat. He was just annoyed that Onoki was ruining his play time.



This is correct.



Kai said:


> *"Damn you Onoki. Looks like we're starting to see a difference in battle experience."*





Kai said:


> The writing is all over the wall.



The writing is all over the wall for those who don't choose to ignore context.

Ohnoki's will being the subject is evidenced by Madara's opting to break said will as opposed to going through the much simpler task of outright killing Ohnoki then and there. It is why Ohnoki was not called the 'true problem' _until his speech_. You have to remember that Madara had been trying to break the will of the Five Kage since revealing Hashirama's face some time ago, and why he chose to mock the Kage by conjuring up twenty-five clones because five on one was fun.

The aforementioned speech isn't reflective of power, and had Madara actually been referring to power he should have acknowledged Ohnoki as the problem in the same breath he stated that "his wisdom shows through at last" (the translation by viz: aka. the people who actually get paid to translate this mess).

_Momentarily_ stopping _Susano'o_ clones that can absorb standard laser beams and tank rock punches in order to save Ay was a _smart_ move because it made the best use out of what Chakra the Tsuchikage had left, hence the recognition of wisdom. It is not, however, a move that elevates Ohnoki's _general strength_ above the remainder of the Five Kage.


Consider what it would have been like had neither been concerned for allies:

Ay wouldn't have been caught had he not tried talking to Tsunade, and would take forever and a half for Madara clones to catch thanks to Hachibi level Chakra.

Ohnoki still would have spent almost all of his Chakra in order to temporarily stun the _Susano'o_ of his clones and very soon become easy pickings for them.


That doesn't look like superiority for Ohnoki.


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## Kai (Oct 19, 2013)

Except that possibly, Onoki's will and wisdom may also well be a contribution to his general level of power?

Madara lauded at Onoki's battle experience, then followed up with how that was so (stopping Susano'o while even saving Raikage). That is pure experience in battle.

Onoki's will doesn't mutually exclude itself from Onoki standing out from the other Kages in fighting ability against Madara, who observed his superiority after fighting all of them firsthand.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2013)

Flaming Rain, do you have the entire viz scan of that panel?


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If this isn't a classic example of bias effecting an argument, then what is....



Yes it is a classic example of that from your end, as you are not considering the differences between C3 and Golem. If Deidara drops a C3 explosive towards Onoki, when they are flying around he'll also get stuck in the explosion. This is not the case with a golem. 

Maybe next time don't take notes from Grimjow on whose bias or not.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2013)

Why would Deidara detonate C2, C3, or C4 when he is still in range. He drop it, it'll collide with Onoki (just like the Golem would collide with Deidara), and Deidara pulls the trigger when the bomb is far enough out of range.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 19, 2013)

@ _Rocky_,

Not at the moment because I'm out of town, I just know those chapters by heart at this point.



Kai said:


> Except that possibly, Onoki's will and wisdom may also well be a contribution to his general level of power?



Possibly, but the reason his will became a problem was because of his speeches boosting other people's morale; he was acting as morale support, which is detrimental to a person playfully trying to lower everyone's determination. I often don't consider traits that supplement others when considering general _power_ for characters.



> Madara lauded at Onoki's battle experience, then followed up with how that was so (stopping Susano'o while even saving Raikage). That is pure experience in battle.



That is called a smart move, and you don't even need to be experienced for that. Madara simply made an observation that Ohnoki had finally wised up.

Kakuzu's general intelligence > Naruto's, and his battle experience vastly moreso, a lot more than Ohnoki and Ay, but that didn't stop Naruto from pulling a fast one over Kakuzu, did it?



> Onoki's will doesn't mutually exclude itself from Onoki standing out from the other Kages in fighting ability against Madara, who observed his superiority after fighting all of them firsthand.



Boosting the fighting ability of others was the reason Ohnoki became problematic considering Madara's specific intentions of lowering morale, not a reason he became superior as a fighter in general.

Please tell me who this speech is going to help Ohnoki beat by himself?


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## LogiaMaster666 (Oct 19, 2013)

Ohnooki is a Kage, likely the strongest. The strongest person Deidara beat was Gaara, who would lose to Onooki, and only did so because Gaara simply has a jutsu that is weak to Deidara's. Just because rock beats scissors, and scissors beats paper, does not mean that rock can beat paper.

Ohnooki views Deidara as a junior, and Deidara showed clear fear of Ohnooki for a reason. Granted, claiming to be superior doesn't mean you are so, but in this case, just like Kisame and Zabuza, it counts. Kishi almost literally said it outright.

Jinton is faster, and while their flight speeds were the same, Ohnooki didn't pull out all the stops until the Madara fight. I'm willing to bet he was faster then.

Ohnooki has back problems, yes. Will they cost him the match? Are they even guaranteed to occur? Probably not.

Microscopic bombs are not a problem. If Ohnooki sees Deidara preparing an attack, he'll be wary enough to not be caught off guard.

Deidara's only shot is his suicide attack, which Ohnooki can fly away from. It simply takes too long to prep. Sasuke only had to be saved by Manda because Sasuke was injured, and close to Deidara. Ohnooki will be at a distance, and can fly. Even if by some miracle, Deidara kills Ohnooki with this attack, he'll be dead too, so it's a draw, and a draw is not a win, it is a draw.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why people are siding with the guy who lost to Pre Mangekyo Sasuke. 
An admin needs to close this thread, because this is getting ridiculous. People are just finding more and more ways to implement denial and/or bias. Deidara is weaker than majority of the Akatsuki, and Ohnooki is probably the strongest Kage.

I eagerly await the claims of bias from the Deidara supporters. I'm done.


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why would Deidara detonate C2, C3, or C4 when he is still in range. He drop it, it'll collide with Onoki (just like the Golem would collide with Deidara), and Deidara pulls the trigger when the bomb is far enough out of range.


That is exactly the difference between C3 & Golem. C3 has to be detonated to do it's damage. So dropping a C3 bomb on Onoki won't do anything to him, only the explosion post detonation will. While a golem dropped on Deidara's head would kill him instantly. 

C3 isn't going to work well against Onoki due to flight and the need for the bomb to be detonated. If Onoki is flying around at the same speed as Deidara, there is going to be next to no chance that  Deidara will be able to drop the bomb and fly to safe enough distance away to detonate it, and Onoki will remain in the position that the bomb was dropped. Rather if Deidara flies away Onoki will just chase him down and the bomb will be left behind.


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## kaminogan (Oct 19, 2013)

ohnoki isn't the strongest kage,

raikage is,

that or SOAT stunade,


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## LogiaMaster666 (Oct 19, 2013)

Raikage? Possibly. I'm still trying to decide that one.
I don't believe that Tsunade in any form is stronger than those two. That form was just so Kishi could create a more direct and personal connection between Hashirama's granddaughter and Madara, who still shit on her regardless.


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## Empathy (Oct 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Onoki called Deidara a punk for losing to "a kid from the Leaf" and Deidara said the situation was getting ridiculous that Onoki was resorting to his particle style.



Onoki's pride talking. He doesn't respect youngsters. 



> Jinton eradicates anything Deidara tries. He has absolutely no counter to Onoki's range.



Onoki's biggest, baddest jinton didn't come close to Deidara's range. Island-buster?

I'd arbitrarily equate jinton's formation speed to Deidara's formation with _Kibaku Nendo_. If the fight had continued I would've favored a mutual kill (with Deidara regenerating). Deidara was never portrayed out of his league when facing Onoki and there wasn't an implication in favor of either of the two before the fight was interrupted. I also don't like the idea of Onoki laser-beaming _C4_ models, head-to-toe before they can be detonated and spread into air. Onoki isn't stopping _C4_ and Deidara can't dodge jinton indefinitely. 

Onoki keeping up with Deidara proves that Onoki isn't fast enough to outrun his more agile _C1_ models. He'll have to block them with doton. Based on his performance against Gaara, Deidara can definitely circumvent frontal doton walls. A brittle man like Onoki is in a lot of trouble if he's hit by _C1_ directly, especially when Gaara's armor couldn't protect him from it. However, Deidara doesn't have the evasive feats to remain untouched by jinton forever. Cellular or atomic decomposition becomes nit-picking at such miniscule degrees, but overall I'd favor a draw based on their canon encounter.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2013)

Empathy said:


> I'd arbitrarily equate jinton's formation speed to Deidara's formation with _Kibaku Nendo_. If the fight had continued I would've favored a mutual kill (with Deidara regenerating). Deidara was never portrayed out of his league when facing Onoki and there wasn't an implication in favor of either of the two before the fight was interrupted. I also don't like the idea of Onoki laser-beaming _C4_ models, head-to-toe before they can be detonated and spread into air. Onoki isn't stopping _C4_ and Deidara can't dodge jinton indefinitely.
> 
> Onoki keeping up with Deidara proves that Onoki isn't fast enough to outrun his more agile _C1_ models. He'll have to block them with doton. Based on his performance against Gaara, Deidara can definitely circumvent frontal doton walls. A brittle man like Onoki is in a lot of trouble if he's hit by _C1_ directly, especially when Gaara's armor couldn't protect him from it. However, Deidara doesn't have the evasive feats to remain untouched by jinton forever. Cellular or atomic decomposition becomes nit-picking at such miniscule degrees, but overall I'd favor a draw based on their canon encounter.


The thing is Onoki did pull Jinton before Deidara had a chance to use C4. Deidara got lucky that Onoki couldn't use Jinton at that moment due to turtle island. This gave Deidara the time to realize the necessity of C4 and pull it out. But even still Onoki had Jinton ready and if Deidara throws a C4 bomb towards Jinton it's going to get atomized along with Deidara. Even if through some miracle -- I don't even know how -- Deidara is able to get the C4 bomb around Jinton and disperse the nano-bombs w/o it being atomized; Deidara still has to actually form the seal to detonate them once Onoki has ingested them, which he's not going to be able to if he's been atomized by Jinton.

In the manga scenario Deidara was an Edo and can therefore tank Jinton and reform, than detonate C4, but if he's living he won't have this chance as he's dead the moment Jinton connects. Though even as an Edo we can assume reforming from something like Jinton would take quite a bit of time, and that gives Onoki time to use his weighted rock technique to bind Deidara before he's able to re-form enough to use the seal necessary to detonate C4. So even in that case Deidara's chance in such a clash are pretty slim.


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## DCI Kurusu (Oct 20, 2013)

How can this discussion still be going on? Deidara turns Oonoki to dust.. ironically.


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## blk (Oct 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Onoki didn't bring out that Jinton until he was well into the battle with Madara, after a flashback regarding his "Stone Will" and how he had the power to change the world. Oh, and this flashback happened because he thought he was going to die....
> 
> So no, it is not "IC" to open with that scale Jinton. It's not even IC for Onoki to open with Jinton at, considering Deidara's surprise that he was going to resort to it so quickly during their canon skirmish.



Onoki was going to use Jinton against Deidara very quickly, as you wrote, so (even if it doesn't happen right at the start of the battle) what i suggested might very well happen quickly enough.

But regardless, that kind of Jinton will most likely end the match even if used after some time.


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## Shiny (Oct 20, 2013)

i can see oonoki winning because his agility seems better in the air than deidara


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## Kanki (Oct 20, 2013)

Deidara was portrayed as the little apprentice brat who Onoki could have schooled under normal circumstances.

'Feats' are so ridiculous these days with virtually every character having the ability to literally rape the other, that I take portrayal as being even more important.

Onoki wins.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 20, 2013)

C4 wont work against Oonoki if hes pursuing deidara in flight; rock clones nullify clay/c4clones...

C3 & C0 r too impractical; this could get out of hand quickly if oonoki starts beaming the insect bombs, rather than countering w/ rock stuffs...

..yeah, jinton is the difference, oonoki wins



Shiny said:


> i can see oonoki winning because his agility seems better in the air than deidara



that's a view I share as well; if one method is faster, its the flight technique. And deidaras bird taxi is not very maneuverable at all...if oonoki catches up to him, hes stuck


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## Empathy (Oct 20, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The thing is Onoki did pull Jinton before Deidara had a chance to use C4. Deidara got lucky that Onoki couldn't use Jinton at that moment due to turtle island. This gave Deidara the time to realize the necessity of C4 and pull it out. But even still Onoki had Jinton ready and if Deidara throws a C4 bomb towards Jinton it's going to get atomized along with Deidara. Even if through some miracle -- I don't even know how -- Deidara is able to get the C4 bomb around Jinton and disperse the nano-bombs w/o it being atomized; Deidara still has to actually form the seal to detonate them once Onoki has ingested them, which he's not going to be able to if he's been atomized by Jinton.



Onoki hasn't shown a jinton that Deidara absolutely couldn't evade except perhaps the super-sized one used on Madara's _Susanoos_ if he did it at a certain range. I'm sure Deidara's familiar with jinton so he had time to prepare to dodge it. Deidara didn't use _C4_ out of necessity but of personal history with Onoki. What proof do you have that jinton would release and atomize _C4_ and Deidara before Deidara had any time to detonate it? Deidara having to perform the seal to detonate the micro-bombs once they're ingested is irrelevant. 

Onoki certainly won't be atomizing them at that point. Based on their encounter before it was interrupted, there was no indication that either would release their jutsu before the other, which leads to me equating their formation and execution, thus concluding a mutual strike would've occurred. Jinton isn't unavoidable by any stretch. Onoki and Muu avoided the hell out of some jinton.



> In the manga scenario Deidara was an Edo and can therefore tank Jinton and reform, than detonate C4, but if he's living he won't have this chance as he's dead the moment Jinton connects. Though even as an Edo we can assume reforming from something like Jinton would take quite a bit of time, and that gives Onoki time to use his weighted rock technique to bind Deidara before he's able to re-form enough to use the seal necessary to detonate C4. So even in that case Deidara's chance in such a clash are pretty slim.



Edo's have regenerated normally when hit by jinton and there's been no established class-based regenerating rate for stronger Edos.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2013)

Empathy said:


> Onoki hasn't shown a jinton that Deidara absolutely couldn't evade except perhaps the super-sized one used on Madara's _Susanoos_ if he did it at a certain range. .


Deidara can't evade any Jinton as Onoki can fly just as fast as Deidara.



> Deidara didn't use C4 out of necessity but of personal history with Onoki.


Deidara used C4, because he was shitting his pants when Onoki brought out Jinton, so in his desperation he pulled out his strongest Jutsu.



> What proof do you have that jinton would release and atomize C4 and Deidara before Deidara had any time to detonate it?


Common sense. The time it took Deidara to form C4 didn't seem any shorter than the time it takes Onoki to form Jinton. In-fact they were portrayed to be forming at the same time. However Jinton once formed blasts the enemy nearly instantly. On the other hand Deidara has to throw C4, wait for the nano-bombs to be ingested, and than form the hand-seals to detonate it. All of this takes far more time than Jinton simply expanding into a beam. And I don't see how C4 is evading being atomized by a large Jinton beam, it's not some super evasive clay structure.



> Deidara having to perform the seal to detonate the micro-bombs once they're ingested is irrelevant.


How is this irrelevant, it's thee most relevant thing to this discussion, because if Deidara gets atomized he isn't going to be around to detonate C4 after Onoki ingests it.



> Onoki certainly won't be atomizing them at that point. Based on their encounter before it was interrupted, there was no indication that either would release their jutsu before the other, which leads to me equating their formation and execution, thus concluding a mutual strike would've occurred. Jinton isn't unavoidable by any stretch. .


And if C4 was thrown at an atomizing beam what is going happen to C4. And if Deidara is hit by Jinton what is going to happen, when he's atomized and not able to detonate C4



> Onoki and Muu avoided the hell out of some jinton.


When have Onoki and Mu avoided Jinton? I don't remember this at all in the manga, rather I remember it specifically being stated that Onoki was needed to counter Mu because Jinton was need to counter Jinton. 



> Edo's have regenerated normally when hit by jinton and there's been no established class-based regenerating rate for stronger Edos.


No one said their regen rate was different. I just said it takes longer to regen their entire body, when atomized to nothing. This is more than enough time for Onoki to use weighted rock technique to bind Deidara.


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## Empathy (Oct 21, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Deidara can't evade any Jinton as Onoki can fly just as fast as Deidara.



What does that have to do with jinton's speed compared to Deidara? How was Onoki not hit by Muu's jinton if it was just as fast as him? He couldn't have stopped all his jinton with his own, as that only makes the attack larger. Onoki's flight speed has no bearing on the speed his jutsu activates.



> Deidara used C4, because he was shitting his pants when Onoki brought out Jinton, so in his desperation he pulled out his strongest Jutsu.



That's the way you like to see it, Turrin. The closest Deidara came to fear was anxiousness when jinton was initially brought out, which is understandable, as you dematerialize when hit by it. I hardly call, "_Screw you old man_," and, "_It was just getting good_," words of diarrhea-inducing terror and desperation. Deidara was interested if his greatest jutsu would prevail over that of his former master's, as a result of their previous history together. Truthfully, this has no detrimental impact for Deidara. Him being liberal with _C4_ does nothing but help him here. This is just disparaging libel on your part.



> Common sense. The time it took Deidara to form C4 didn't seem any shorter than the time it takes Onoki to form Jinton. In-fact they were portrayed to be forming at the same time. However Jinton once formed blasts the enemy nearly instantly. On the other hand Deidara has to throw C4, wait for the nano-bombs to be ingested, and than form the hand-seals to detonate it. All of this takes far more time than Jinton simply expanding into a beam. And I don't see how C4 is evading being atomized by a large Jinton beam, it's not some super evasive clay structure.



Jinton is projected and then expands. It is a projective after all. Nigh-instantaneous would be an outrageous exaggeration. And it is again, entirely evadable. There wasn't an edge in execution shown and if Onoki would've won that clash, I'm sure the implication would've been given.



> How is this irrelevant, it's thee most relevant thing to this discussion, because if Deidara gets atomized he isn't going to be around to detonate C4 after Onoki ingests it.



The fight's over if Deidara's hit by jinton, just as it's over if _C4_ is detonated inside Onoki. _C4_ detonating as Deidara's hit by jinton was more what I had in mind; mutual decomposition. The trick would be Deidara avoiding jinton.



> And if C4 was thrown at an atomizing beam what is going happen to C4. And if Deidara is hit by Jinton what is going to happen, when he's atomized and not able to detonate C4



Why would Deidara throw his clay model at a projectile that dematerializes any matter it comes in contact with? There's no evidence supporting that Deidara can't evade jinton. 



> When have Onoki and Mu avoided Jinton? I don't remember this at all in the manga, rather I remember it specifically being stated that Onoki was needed to counter Mu because Jinton was need to counter Jinton.



Jinton can clash with jinton, in which case they combine to larger construct of jinton rather than jinton just consuming whatever is in it's path. That's only what could've been meant by that; not that Onoki can only be beaten by Muu or that Muu only can be stopped by Onoki. Onoki and Muu turned the battlefield to swiss-cheese and judging by the size of some of those smaller craters, jinton could not have always been combining to expand into bigger explosions. Rather, Muu would have no need for invisibility if evasive stealth were not being used. 



> No one said their regen rate was different. I just said it takes longer to regen their entire body, when atomized to nothing. This is more than enough time for Onoki to use weighted rock technique to bind Deidara.



My mistake. I thought you meant it would take longer to regenerate from jinton due to caliber, as Muu took longer to regenerate from _Wakusei Rasengan_. Madara regenerated from jinton quite quickly and there was never a discrepancy of regeneration stated based on class. That was the point I was trying to make. I will point out that Shin, Madara, and the Seven Swordsman regenerated from head-to-toe in a matter of seconds and Onoki can't touch what's not there yet.


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## Kai (Oct 21, 2013)

Empathy said:


> Onoki's pride talking. He doesn't respect youngsters.


That may be. At the same time, he knows absolutely everything about Deidara that would validate such an attitude.



			
				Empathy said:
			
		

> I'd arbitrarily equate jinton's formation speed to Deidara's formation with _Kibaku Nendo_. If the fight had continued I would've favored a mutual kill (with Deidara regenerating). Deidara was never portrayed out of his league when facing Onoki and there wasn't an implication in favor of either of the two before the fight was interrupted. I also don't like the idea of Onoki laser-beaming _C4_ models, head-to-toe before they can be detonated and spread into air. Onoki isn't stopping _C4_ and Deidara can't dodge jinton indefinitely.


Except Deidara capitalized on Onoki being open when he was talking to Akatsuchi and Akatsuchi was able to make a golem after Deidara made the seal to detonate.



Onoki himself is capable of reacting to anything Deidara tries, even after he makes the _Katsu_ seal.



			
				Empathy said:
			
		

> Onoki keeping up with Deidara proves that Onoki isn't fast enough to outrun his more agile _C1_ models. He'll have to block them with doton. Based on his performance against Gaara, Deidara can definitely circumvent frontal doton walls.


Empathy, has this debate really gone in the direction of whether Onoki can outmaneuver C1 models? _Really_?

Sasuke was outmaneuvering *C2* models when he was *grounded.*





None of Deidara's bombs, which travel nowhere near the speed of Deidara himself, have any chance of tagging Onoki in the air.



			
				Empathy said:
			
		

> A brittle man like Onoki is in a lot of trouble if he's hit by _C1_ directly


It appears the fight against Madara has by and large escaped your memory.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2013)

Empathy said:


> What does that have to do with jinton's speed compared to Deidara?


Because Onoki can fly the beam at Deidara, which Deidara won't be able to escape because Onoki is able to keep up with his flight speed. For example if Onoki used Jinton here:
Actually it looks like Madara was aiming to blow off the Shinsusenju ten thousand arm back.

How would Deidara evade it.



> How was Onoki not hit by Muu's jinton if it was just as fast as him? He couldn't have stopped all his jinton with his own, as that only makes the attack larger.


We were directly shown Onoki being able to cancel out Mu's Jinton with his own Jinton, in such a way that he was safe from the attack:
Actually it looks like Madara was aiming to blow off the Shinsusenju ten thousand arm back.
Actually it looks like Madara was aiming to blow off the Shinsusenju ten thousand arm back.

So the off-paneled Jinton struggle between Onoki and Mu, could have easily been Mu and Onoki simply clashing Jinton beams like that.



> That's the way you like to see it, Turrin. The closest Deidara came to fear was anxiousness when jinton was initially brought out, which is understandable, as you dematerialize when hit by it. I hardly call, "Screw you old man," and, "It was just getting good," words of diarrhea-inducing terror and desperation. Deidara was interested if his greatest jutsu would prevail over that of his former master's, as a result of their previous history together. Truthfully, this has no detrimental impact for Deidara. Him being liberal with C4 does nothing but help him here. This is just disparaging libel on your part.


Empathy your obviously not picking up on the visual ques the author is giving us. Deidara is  shown in a cold sweat when Onoki talks about how terrifying he can be. This is used as a plot device by the author to show that Deidara is the one being pressured:
Actually it looks like Madara was aiming to blow off the Shinsusenju ten thousand arm back.
Actually it looks like Madara was aiming to blow off the Shinsusenju ten thousand arm back.
Actually it looks like Madara was aiming to blow off the Shinsusenju ten thousand arm back.



> Jinton is projected and then expands. It is a projective after all. Nigh-instantaneous would be an outrageous exaggeration. And it is again, entirely evadable. shown and if Onoki would've won that clash, I'm sure the implication would've been given.


Empathy it's kind of ridiculous to me that your saying Jinton's expansion effect is going to take just as long as it takes for Deidara to throw a C4 bomb over to Onoki, the nano-bombs to spread, Onoki to ingest them, and Deidara to form the hand-seal to explode those nano-bombs. This paints the picture that Jinton's expansion is relatively slow, which is not even close to how it's been portrayed. 



> There wasn't an edge in execution


I'm sorry but there was an edge shown. Deidara and Onoki were forming their attacks at the same rate, but we know that C4 has to be thrown, disperse nano-bombs, ingested, and hand-seal for detonation after that. So the edge goes to Jinton which merely has to expand. 

Onoki also had the edge before Deidara even got a chance to bring C4 out, Deidara was just lucky that turtle island was there.



> if Onoki would've won that clash, I'm sure the implication would've been given.


The implication is given via the mechanics of C4 and the hype Jinton is given later on in the arc. I don't need to see the actual clash, when the manga makes it painfully obvious which Jutsu was superior in that position. 



> The fight's over if Deidara's hit by jinton, just as it's over if C4 is detonated inside Onoki. C4 detonating as Deidara's hit by jinton was more what I had in mind; mutual decomposition. The trick would be Deidara avoiding jinton.


So your assuming that Deidara avoids the Jinton beam long enough to throw C4 at flying Onoki, spread nano-bombs, Onoki ingests them, and him to pull out the hand-seal to detonate. I seriously do not see Deidara accomplishing that against someone who is able to keep up with his flight speed perfectly.



> ]Why would Deidara throw his clay model at a projectile that dematerializes any matter it comes in contact with?


Deidara is kind of retarded. I mean honestly the dude did think he could take on the Kyuubi-Jin and Kakashi w/o any clay and one arm. He decide to fight Gaara low on clay for no apparent reason. He decided to go into CQC with Sasuke for no apparent reason. He thought he couldn't be defeated as an Edo Tensei. He was tricked by the most simplistic sword tatic ever on the part of Omoi. Etc...

[QUOTE There's no evidence supporting that Deidara can't evade jinton. [/QUOTE]
Everything points towards Deidara not being able to avoid Jinton, where is the evidence that he can evade it? Dude couldn't even evade Sai's attack for fucks sake.



> Jinton can clash with jinton, in which case they combine to larger construct of jinton rather than jinton just consuming whatever is in it's path. That's only what could've been meant by that; not that Onoki can only be beaten by Muu or that Muu only can be stopped by Onoki.


It's directly stated that only Onoki could have beaten Mu, so that's what I take it as, not some random other thing, which was never expand on in the manga cannon. 



> Onoki and Muu turned the battlefield to swiss-cheese and judging by the size of some of those smaller craters, jinton could not have always been combining to expand into bigger explosions.


Yes it could have, we don't know the sizes or shapes of Jinton they were using each time. We don't know how the two blast connected or when they connected each time. Etc... Your trying to take an off-panel encounter between Onoki and Mu, and use it to imply Deidara can evade Jinton. That is really reaching imo.



> Rather, Muu would have no need for invisibility if evasive stealth were not being used.


Using Invis to cloak one's presence is totally different than evading through flight. So until Deidara shows invis this is pretty irrelevant.



> My mistake. I thought you meant it would take longer to regenerate from jinton due to caliber, as Muu took longer to regenerate from Wakusei Rasengan. Madara regenerated from jinton quite quickly and there was never a discrepancy of regeneration stated based on class. That was the point I was trying to make. I will point out that Shin, Madara, and the Seven Swordsman regenerated from head-to-toe in a matter of seconds and Onoki can't touch what's not there yet.


Yes they regenerated quite quickly, but every Edo Tensei which suffers major damage has not regenerate quick enough where they could avoid being sealed by fodder cloth sealers. So if Fodder clother sealers can pull of cloth sealing in time, I greatly doubt that Onoki would be unable to pull off weighted rock technique in time.


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## Empathy (Oct 21, 2013)

Kai said:


> That may be. At the same time, he knows absolutely everything about Deidara that would validate such an attitude.



Onoki's treated Sasuke and Gaara with the same manner of disrespect. To say that Onoki's attitude toward Deidara has any bearing toward their respective strength levels is just silly.



> Except Deidara capitalized on Onoki being open when he was talking to Akatsuchi and Akatsuchi was able to make a golem after Deidara made the seal to detonate.
> 
> 
> 
> Onoki himself is capable of reacting to anything Deidara tries, even after he makes the _Katsu_ seal.



Good for Akatsuchi. I wouldn't say Onoki couldn't do that, too. However, the point is less impressive when you consider Akatsuchi only had to inhale to perform his jutsu rather than Deidara needing to perform a seal. Evidently, Akatsuch can breathe faster than Deidara can mold his fingers into a shape, which is all this point proves. Deidara's explosives have never relied on unstoppable speed to connect, but rather massive range and maneuverability. Jinton will take a lot longer to perform than simply inhaling oxygen and exhaling doton.



> Empathy, has this debate really gone in the direction of whether Onoki can outmaneuver C1 models? _Really_?
> 
> Sasuke was outmaneuvering *C2* models when he was *grounded.*
> 
> ...



Of course it has, Kai. Although, I'm not quite sure the pertinence Sasuke has here. Deidara's _C1_ model was very clearly moving the same speed as Onoki during their pursuit and that's all that's relevant here. That means Onoki won't be able to fly faster than Deidara's _C1_ (because he didn't) and therefore can be tagged in the air. If Onoki's going to evade _C1_ he's going to need to be faster than it, which he's proven he isn't. Is your point that since Sasuke was able to dodge the larger explosions, Onoki can certainly dodge smaller ones since he's faster? Because he's not. Sasuke is a lot faster on the ground than Deidara or Onoki are in the sky, especially when things like _shunshin no jutsu_ and other chakra-enhanced movement, are possible. 

Comparing _C1_ and _C2_ in that regard is already faulty. Deidara relied more on the massive size of his explosions for the latter and utilized much less mobility. He shot the missiles from the dragon's mouth like a canon and maneuvered them very little to get in range, due to the large size of the explosions. The speed they were propelled at when fired down at the target was relied more on than the maneuverability. In Sasuke's case, he's fast enough to avoid most of the explosion and use the force to propel him from danger. 

With _C1_ the explosions are much smaller, in which case they must be guided and maneuvered with much more trickery to get them to closer proximity (this was shown with Gaara). _C2_ can definitely be stalemated with Onoki's larger doton. In that case I'm certain Deidara can maneuver and circumvent frontal walls of doton golems with _C1_. Don't get me wrong; Deidara shook off one of his own _C1_ just fine, but Onoki's a lot less durable and getting even partially hit with numerous ones can critically injure him and lead to further hinder mobility.



> It appears the fight against Madara has by and large escaped your memory.



Onoki getting bonked on the head by the meteors? Don't be silly now. That was very much the equivalent of a weight being dropped on someone being cushioned by a fluffy pillow buffer. That was undoubtedly the _only_ reason Onoki survived. Make no mistake, there is zero possibility Onoki's aged skin is superior to Gaara's sand armor in durability. You very much underestimate the potency of Onoki's _Doton: Chou Keijuugan no Jutsu_. Onoki is indeed a very fragile old man with very brittle bones. This would be the equivalent of attributing resilience to a man who cannot bear the weight of a box over his entire back, can then go to one-handing an entire island that had to weigh at least thousands of tons, high above his head. Onoki was hit by a meteor weighing at least thousands tons, cushioned by a sphere of equivalent mass composed entirely of fluffy feathers.



Turrin said:


> Because Onoki can fly the beam at Deidara, which Deidara won't be able to escape because Onoki is able to keep up with his flight speed. For example if Onoki used Jinton here:
> box
> 
> How would Deidara evade it.



With flight, of course. Onoki hasn't shown to maintain any jinton construct longer than mere moments, so the notion of Onoki swinging around a giant jinton sword at Deidara in the sky is nothing but unfeasible and unfounded. The linear jinton beam covers a great deal of length, but very little space, especially where the entirety of the open sky is concerned. Onoki is better off firing larger jinton constructs that cover greater space.



> We were directly shown Onoki being able to cancel out Mu's Jinton with his own Jinton, in such a way that he was safe from the attack:
> box
> box
> 
> So the off-paneled Jinton struggle between Onoki and Mu, could have easily been Mu and Onoki simply clashing Jinton beams like that.



Turrin, you didn't read what I said close enough because what I addressed was exactly this. I'll try to be more clear this time. Those jinton are not canceling each other out. They are combining to form a larger, singular jinton construct. That would be like trying to get rid of water by throwing more water at it. Based on the size and shape of some of these craters, they could not have always been parring each others' jinton with more jinton. That only makes them larger and more likely that one of them will get caught in the larger blast (and if they weren't, it only means they had to be dodging jinton). Moreover, it's a terrible strategy from Onoki given he was sent as the only counter to Muu, because Muu has limitless chakra and Onoki would only be outlasted. Furthermore, why would Muu even have the need to turn invisible if he were not employing evasive stealth maneuvers? Restating what was already refuted does not a rebuttal make. 



> Empathy your obviously not picking up on the visual ques the author is giving us. Deidara is  shown in a cold sweat when Onoki talks about how terrifying he can be. This is used as a plot device by the author to show that Deidara is the one being pressured:
> craters
> craters
> craters



One sweat-drop does not entail terror that leads to soiling of one's pants. It's in no way a deviation of what I said it was. Anxiousness and caution toward a force that can reduce all matter on an atomic level is nothing short of understandable. Your interpretation is mere exorbitant, disreputable hyperbole. Deidara's behavior after jinton was initially brought out was nothing except an eagerness at the chance to best his former mentor; thus in no way conveying fear.


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## Empathy (Oct 21, 2013)

> Empathy it's kind of ridiculous to me that your saying Jinton's expansion effect is going to take just as long as it takes for Deidara to throw a C4 bomb over to Onoki, the nano-bombs to spread, Onoki to ingest them, and Deidara to form the hand-seal to explode those nano-bombs. This paints the picture that Jinton's expansion is relatively slow, which is not even close to how it's been portrayed.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but there was an edge shown. Deidara and Onoki were forming their attacks at the same rate, but we know that C4 has to be thrown, disperse nano-bombs, ingested, and hand-seal for detonation after that. So the edge goes to Jinton which merely has to expand.



If you meticulously go through the process like that, it's easy to seem arduous (I can do the same with jinton). If we equate formation, then throwing and projection can also be equated. Spread and ingestion occur in unison, and can be equated with jinton traveling toward Deidara. The hand-seal detonation and decomposition when jinton reaches can then finally be equated. When you factor that Deidara has a distance and range advantage, it becomes a lot more feasible. If they were five feet apart, then sure, Deidara would dematerialize before these actions could occur. But if Deidara were far enough away from jinton's reach, you could conclude that Onoki would be the one to dematerialize. Given that they're equal in speed, it seems logical to conclude that Deidara wouldn't let Onoki get too close and that Onoki wouldn't let Deidara get too far away. Thus, a believable mutual death scenario is formed. If you refuse to believe me, then you could just argue Deidara dodging jinton and then firing off _C4_ as a counterattack.



> Onoki also had the edge before Deidara even got a chance to bring C4 out, Deidara was just lucky that turtle island was there.



There's no evidence that Deidara cannot avoid jinton. Island-busting jinton is a misconception. 



> The implication is given via the mechanics of C4 and the hype Jinton is given later on in the arc. I don't need to see the actual clash, when the manga makes it painfully obvious which Jutsu was superior in that position.



That's a subjective conclusion based on mechanics of the jutsu; not an implication. If the author wanted to show that Onoki would've won if they were no interruption, then that implication would've been there and it would've been understandable for more casual readers. Instead the fight ended with neither party seeming to have an advantage and there's a reason for that (the author didn't want to show an advantage). Your, "_painfully obvious_," conclusion however fails to consider that jinton does not meet all distances simultaneously. It reaches shorter distances first and farther distances last, leading to a dichotomy that a middle-ground where both are simultaneously struck can be reached.



> So your assuming that Deidara avoids the Jinton beam long enough to throw C4 at flying Onoki, spread nano-bombs, Onoki ingests them, and him to pull out the hand-seal to detonate. I seriously do not see Deidara accomplishing that against someone who is able to keep up with his flight speed perfectly.



Indeed. The explanations are above.



> Deidara is kind of retarded. I mean honestly the dude did think he could take on the Kyuubi-Jin and Kakashi w/o any clay and one arm.



Before you call someone retarded for braving such a task, look how that turned out. Bare in mind that Deidara had no knowledge of _Kamui_ before that. If it weren't for _Kamui_, Deidara would've killed Naruto, Sakura, Chiyo, Gai, Lee, Neji, and Tenten while armless and out of clay. In that action he successfully eluded both the sharingan and byakugan — showing not only intelligence, but an aptitude that Deidara was not as retarded as you say for believing he could facilitate such a challenge and was very nearly triumphant. 



> He decide to fight Gaara low on clay for no apparent reason.



This was revealed to be a result of Deidara's impulsive, artistic nature rather than being mentally handicapped. He did prepare _C3_ and a strategy to defeat Gaara beforehand.



> He decided to go into CQC with Sasuke for no apparent reason.



He did nothing of the sort. 

Sasuke entered close-quarters when he attempted to blitz him. Deidara began the fight airborne as he'd always done and when his ambush was blocked, he attacked at a distance to assess Sasuke's reactions. The DB details Deidara's varying, calculated approach against different opponents: 


*Spoiler*: _Databook III—Page 107_ 





> _At the start of every battle, Deidara immediately analyzes the surrounding environment and his opponent’s fighting style. This is crucial for Deidara in selecting the right method to attack. Deidara is tenaciously devoted to his Art. He likes tough and challenging battles, because they give him good opportunities show the beauty of his Art._








> He was tricked by the most simplistic sword tatic ever on the part of Omoi. He thought he couldn't be defeated as an Edo Tensei Etc...



Deidara has been portrayed as intelligent, but prideful in his art (which leads to arrogance). Do not confuse that for idiocy. It's a rather interesting dichotomy that you would point out Deidara's actions and accuse them as mistakes or blunders, but never make mention of his feats of cunning. What about his correct assessment of the discrepancy between the sand in Gaara's gourd and the vaster desert he controls?—or his strategy that ultimately lead to his triumph and the Kazekage's defeat? 

At twelve, after being bested by genjutsu, Deidara developed an ability to see through genjutsu and as well as a microscopic gaseous jutsu that disintegrates enemies at a cellular level. Deidara feinted right in front of the sharingan multiple times. He developed the Catch-22 of the _C2_ missile and landmine combination. He's never been portrayed as the bumbling fool you believe him to be. Deidara purposefully throwing his clay model at a substance he knows disintegrates whatever it touches just because you think he's, "_retarded_," is quite honestly one of the worst excuses I have ever heard.



> Everything points towards Deidara not being able to avoid Jinton, where is the evidence that he can evade it? Dude couldn't even evade Sai's attack for fucks sake.



I will gladly answer to provide feats when asked, rather than simply throw the question back at the asker. Deidara was able to evade the entirety of Gaara's far more maneuverable desert numerous times. He was capable of keeping up with and outmaneuvering Team Gai with a feint in close-quarters while exhausted and armless. He was capable of reacting to Sasuke's speed multiple times. He kicked out giant shuriken from his shoulders, reached into his pockets to form a clay model, and then mounted it before he could fall five meters. He moved equally at the speed of Onoki, who had to avoid jinton from Muu. That's all evidence supporting Deidara's speed and reflexes, evading some attacks that are even faster than jinton. If Deidara were truly unable to react to Sai's attack (I personally doubt it), then it just means Sai's attack was faster than jinton. 



> It's directly stated that only Onoki could have beaten Mu, so that's what I take it as, not some random other thing, which was never expand on in the manga cannon.



Then there would have to be a reason for that, Turrin. Onoki was stated to be the only one in the alliance to take on Muu because of they're the only two who know jinton. Well then what would jinton's interaction be with other jinton that would only be able to stop it?



> Yes it could have, we don't know the sizes or shapes of Jinton they were using each time. We don't know how the two blast connected or when they connected each time. Etc... Your trying to take an off-panel encounter between Onoki and Mu, and use it to imply Deidara can evade Jinton. That is really reaching imo.



You can see the aftermath of size and shapes and conclude what was used. That's like saying we can only ever match a footprint if we see who made the footprint as they're creating it. Jinton clashing with jinton only creates bigger jinton. They had to be dodging the larger jinton explosions or one of them would've eventually been consumed. So even if you think all they did was parry jinton with jinton, they still had to evade. It's a logical conclusion based on what we know and what was shown. If I were reaching then it'd be conjecture without evidence to substantiate assertions; that's not what I'm doing (although, I'm sure you'll say otherwise). Reaching would be assuming Muu and Onoki kept firing jinton at jinton to create larger jinton without the need ever presenting itself to evade said larger jinton while also not providing evidence to support that claim.



> Using Invis to cloak one's presence is totally different than evading through flight. So until Deidara shows invis this is pretty irrelevant.



Invisibility's purpose is to mask one's presence so they may not be detected; a form of evasion. Why would Muu need to turn invisible if all he were doing was parrying jinton with jinton and never moving, like you said?



> Yes they regenerated quite quickly, but every Edo Tensei which suffers major damage has not regenerate quick enough where they could avoid being sealed by fodder cloth sealers. So if Fodder clother sealers can pull of cloth sealing in time, I greatly doubt that Onoki would be unable to pull off weighted rock technique in time.



Fair enough, although not necessarily correct.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

Empathy said:


> With flight, of course. Onoki hasn't shown to maintain any jinton construct longer than mere moments, so the notion of Onoki swinging around a giant jinton sword at Deidara in the sky is nothing but unfeasible and unfounded. The linear jinton beam covers a great deal of length, but very little space, especially where the entirety of the open sky is concerned. Onoki is better off firing larger jinton constructs that cover greater space..


Onoki swung around his Jinton and covered a massive amount of space in an incredibly brief period of time when he destroyed Flower-Tree World:
here
here



> Turrin, you didn't read what I said close enough because what I addressed was exactly this. I'll try to be more clear this time. Those jinton are not canceling each other out. They are combining to form a larger, singular jinton construct. That would be like trying to get rid of water by throwing more water at it. Based on the size and shape of some of these craters, they could not have always been parring each others' jinton with more jinton. That only makes them larger and more likely that one of them will get caught in the larger blast (and if they weren't, it only means they had to be dodging jinton).


Once again the differences in terrain damage could have been created by the Jinton Beams making contact at different angles. Or Mu's Jinton Beam blasting through one piece of the topography, before making contact with Onoki's beam, or vica-verse. There are tons of explanations.

Also I honestly can not imagine Kishi actually thought out how each one of those pieces of damage to the topography were created. I truly believe that expecting any higher thought on Kishi's part other than; both clashed Jinton beams so the area is f'd up; is expecting way too much from Kishi and is an extremely silly basis for an argument.



> They had to be dodging the larger jinton explosions or one of them would've eventually been consumed. So even if you think all they did was parry jinton with jinton, they still had to evade. It's a logical conclusion based on what we know and what was shown..


We were shown the two clashing Jinton and thus countering each others Jinton. Did Onoki or Mu have to evade in this instance:
here
here

No they didn't. So there is nothing saying they'd couldn't just defend the beams.



> Moreover, it's a terrible strategy from Onoki given he was sent as the only counter to Muu, because Muu has limitless chakra and Onoki would only be outlasted.


But in-fact that is what's indicated to have happened. That Mu was tiring Onoki out, to exploit Onoki's exhaustion. Yes it's a shitty situation for Onoki, but if all he can do is defend Jinton w/ Jinton he doesn't have much of a choice in the matter.



> Furthermore, why would Muu even have the need to turn invisible if he were not employing evasive stealth maneuvers? Restating what was already refuted does not a rebuttal make. Invisibility's purpose is to mask one's presence so they may not be detected; a form of evasion. Why would Muu need to turn invisible if all he were doing was parrying jinton with jinton and never moving, like you said?


Your confusing the issue. I only said Onoki's and Deidara's shown flight speed won't be evading Jinton. And that Mu and Onoki weren't evading Jinton with their flight. Maybe they were evading it through Invis, maybe Mu just used Invis to ambush Onoki, or both. However Invis evasion is totally irrelevant to a discussion of Deidara vs Onoki, since Deidara doesn't have Invis. Flight speed is what's important here. 



> Reaching would be assuming Muu and Onoki kept stationary firing jinton at jinton to create larger jinton without the need ever presenting itself to evade said larger jinton while also not providing evidence to support such a claim.


Your reaching, because a large part of what your using to support your argument rests on a scenario you have imagined for off panel events. I merely offered an alternative scenario, to demonstrate how flimsy creating this imaginative scenario and using it as fact is. However my argument for Onoki's victory does not rely on someone scenario I made up for what happened off panel. I'm not coming to you and saying I think Onoki demonstrated even greater flight speed off panel by dodging Mu's Jinton attacks and therefore would outright blitz Deidara. As that would be an imagined scenario.



> One sweat-drop does not entail terror that leads to soiling of one's pants, as you've said. It's in no way a deviation of what I said it was. Anxiousness and caution toward a force that can reduce all matter on an atomic level is nothing short of understandable. Your interpretation is mere exorbitant, disreputable hyperbole.


Onoki talks about how terrifying he can be and we see Deidara break out into a cold sweat. To me that is self explanatory that initially Deidara got scared when Onoki got pissed considering the context of the dialog. He may have composed himself more latter, because the dude's an experienced Ninja, but I can not read that seen in context as any but Deidara getting scared initially.

Whether or not he was scared to the point of shitting his pants is you getting overly finicky about the language I used as I was just being humerus about it, while at the same time clearly conveying my point.



> Deidara's behavior after jinton was initially brought out was nothing except an eagerness at the chance to best his former mentor; thus in no way conveying fear.


Deidara  is always eager to get himself killed in ever increasingly stupid ways, so I would totally buy that.



> If you meticulously go through the process like that, it's easy to seem arduous (I can do the same with jinton).


I'm sorry but this is just ridiculous. It seems more arduous because it is.

Onoki pulls out a massive Jinton beam in the matter of 2-3 panels, even when effected by poisonous vapors:
here
here
here

It is depicted as very quick process. Onoki charges the Jinton in his hands for a bit and than releases the beam. Once something is hit they are instantly atomized.

However Deidara's C4 takes much longer than this:

1. It requires a formation time that is at least comparable to Jinton's charge time, to make the explosive:
here

2, Than it has to be thrown at the target, and nothing indicates that Deidara's throwing speed is equal to the speed at which Jinton expands.

3. Than once the C4 is near the target Deidara has to use 1 hand-seal to detonate the bomb:
here

4. Than the bomb has to expand and buff up, until it explodes dispersing the bombs:
here
here

'That is what I mean by dispersion taking it's own amount of time instead, separate from ingestion.

5. Than the Bombs have to be ingested by the target. Which will at least require a few breaths worth of time.

6. Than Deidara has to form yet another lengthy hand-seal to detonate the Nano-bombs inside the body:
here
here

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way to justify the idea that C4 is employed at the same speed as Jinton. Jinton requires 2 steps, with maybe a brief third where Onoki flies the Jinton beam into the enemy (or sweeps it into the enemy). C4 requires double the amount of steps as this and all except one of these steps (the formation of the bomb) seem to take longer than the other steps of Jinton.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

> If you refuse to believe me, then you could just argue Deidara dodging jinton and then firing off C4 as a counterattack.
> There no evidence that Deidara cannot avoid jinton. Island-busting jinton is a misconception.


For the fifth time how is Deidara evading Jinton when Onoki can keep up with his flight. Simply put if Onoki has a giant Jinton beam in hand and is able to catch Deidara's flight speed, Deidara can't evade the attack, because he won't be able to move faster than the attack, in-fact the attack will be moving faster than him, because it will have both Onoki's flight speed behind it which is equivalent to Deidara's speed and it's own expansion to cover more distance. Additionally all Jinton has to hit is the win of Deidara's clay bird and than he's falling to earth and than the Jinton beam can be directed down on him while he's free falling. So there is no way he is dodging Jinton.

There's my evidence. No where exactly is your evidence for Deidara evading Jinton. All I've seen in the way evidence is your fan-fic on what happen in an off panel battle between two character none of which are even named Deidara.



> That's a subjective conclusion based on mechanics of the jutsu; not an implication. If the author wanted to show that Onoki would've won if they were no interruption, then that implication would've been there and it would've been understandable for more casual readers. Instead the fight ended with neither party seeming to have an advantage and there's a reason for that (the author didn't want to show an advantage). .


The reason the author left it open ended was not to make it seem like the two were equivalent not even close. The author left it like that so he could hold off on revealing Onoki's Beam Jinton. The moment we see Onoki's Beam Jinton it becomes clear that Deidara was fucked in that situation, due to it's range and speed of expansion. This is further enforced by all the hype that Kishi put on Jinton post Deidara battle, hype that far excels anything C4 has ever gotten. For that matter Diedara was fodderized by a bunch of Chuunin/Jonin, while Onoki was off fighting Kages and leading the Gokage in their duel against Madara. The difference in portrayal is really obvious dude.



> . Your, "painfully obvious," conclusion however fails to consider that jinton does not meet all distances simultaneously. It reaches shorter distances first and farther distances last, leading to a dichotomy that a middle-ground where both are simultaneously struck can be reached.


This is rendered a moot point considering that Deidara was in short with Onoki at the time:
here

It's not like Diedara was 60m away and could maybe try to get the drop on Onoki. Deidara tried to get away and distance himself from Onoki, but he couldn't since Onoki flight speed kept up with him. And yet again this is the problem and reason why Deidara has no hope of evading Jinton.



> Before you call someone retarded for braving such a task, look how that turned out. Bare in mind that Deidara had no knowledge of Kamui before that. If it weren't for Kamui, Deidara would've killed Naruto, Sakura, Chiyo, Gai, Lee, Neji, and Tenten while armless and out of clay. In that action he successfully eluded both the sharingan and byakugan  showing not only intelligence, but an aptitude that Deidara was not as retarded as you say for believing he could facilitate such a challenge and was very nearly triumphant.


I'm not going to sit here and play the what if game, which personally I find your conclusions to be extremely biased for Deidara. What actually happened is Deidara got owned, because of his own stupidity. And yes it was stupid to not prep extra clay when the guy native to Suna tells you to do so. It is even more stupid to try and capture Kyuubi-Jin with even less clay and one arm.

There is no excuses to be made.



> This was revealed to be due to Deidara's impulsive, artistic nature than being mentally handicapped. He prepared C3 and a strategy to defeat Gaara beforehand, and you've only to look at the results to see how these decisions worked out.


Mentally handicapped, impulsive artistic nature, you can call it whatever you want, it still results in the same thing, pure and utter stupidity. The result was Deidara lost an arm for no reason and than end up with no clay when Team Konoha came knocking, which resulted in him getting his ass kicked even further because of what happened in the Gaara battle, which was again due to his stupidity.

Heck the only reason he didn't die against Gaara is because he got lucky that Gaara decided to protect the village. Something he later admitted he didn't expect considering the prior Jinchuuriki he encountered. So literally Deidara by his own admission only survived due to a massive gamble. 



> He did nothing of the sort. Sasuke entered close-quarters when he attempted to blitz him. Deidara begun the fight airborne as he'd always done and when his ambush was blocked, he attacked at a distance to assess Sasuke's reactions. The DB details Deidara's varying, calculated approach against different opponents:


Basically what I meant was he was in the Air with the range advantage and decided to land on the ground not that far away from Sasuke. This is a stupid move for a long range fighter and he would have died because of it if not for Obito



> Deidara has been portrayed as intelligent, but prideful in his art (which leads to arrogance).


.
So he's book smart but so arrogant that he lacks common sense and makes stupid decisions. I agree.



> t's a rather interesting dichotomy that you would point out of Deidara's actions and call them mistakes or blunders, but never make mention of his feats of cunning. .


Because his blunders comically out weigh his instances of cunning. I mean the dude literally has some of the best Jutsu in the manga and still fails horrible because of his idiocy. As an Edo Tensei Kishi even said he would be the most lethal due to being able to use CO over and over again rapid fire. But Deidara still managed to loose to Jonin/Chuunin due to sheer idiocy on his part. Think about that for a second:

The Author of the Manga Said Edo Deidara is more lethal than Edo Madara, and he still managed to loose to Kankuro, Sai, and Omoi, due to stupidity. That is absolutely pathetic. 

I'm pretty sure even a zero intelligence berserker could have done better in that scenario, so Deidara is somehow operating at less than Zero intelligence for him to have been fodderized that bad when commanding such power. 

So are Deidara few successful instances of moderate intelligence, which honestly he's never even come close to display again post Suna arc, enough to outweigh such epic-fail; no, not even close



> I will gladly answer to provide feats when asked, rather than simply throw the question back at the asker. Deidara was able to evade the entirety of Gaara's far more maneuverable desert numerous times. He was capable of keeping up with and outmaneuvering Team Gai with a feint in close-quarters while exhausted and armless. He was capable of reacting to Sasuke's speed multiple times. He kicked out giant shuriken from his shoulders, reached into his pockets to form a clay model, and then mounted it before he could fall five meters.


.
Non of that was as fast as Onoki's flight speed + expanding effect of Jinton



> He moved equally at the speed of Onoki, who had to avoid jinton from Muu. T.


In a Fanfic you wrote, tho, which doesn't count in the BD.



> If Deidara were truly unable to react to Sai's attack (I personally doubt it), then it just means Sai's attack was faster than jinton


So basically ether 

A) Deidara took Sai's attack intentionally, which means he was so dumb that it's unimaginable to me and would probably won't even bother to avoid Jinton ether than

or 

B) Sai's attack is faster than Jinton based on absolutely nothing 

These are the two choice your giving me. I'll go with C. Since Sai got close to Deidara, he couldn't evade the attack in time, just like he wouldn't be able to evade Jinton.



> Then there would have to be a reason for that, Turrin. Onoki was stated to be the only one in the alliance to take on Muu because of his they're the only two who know jinton. Well then what would jinton's interaction be with other jinton that would only be able to stop it?


The reason is that Mu's Kekkei Tota could only be countered by Onoki's Kekkai Tota, out of the alliance members. Because Jinton is that strong.



> Fair enough, although not necessarily, entirely correct.


How is not correct. Are you going to argue Onoki is slower than the Cloth Sealers?


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