# Taijutsu Fight 23: Gai vs Tsunade



## RedChidori (Aug 23, 2014)

The title says it all .



VS




Location: Open field
State of Mind: IC, Intend to kill
Starting Distance: Face-to-face
Knowledge: Gai is aware of Tsunade's strength and Byakugo, Tsunade knows about Gai's Taijutsu prowess and Gates.
Restrictions: *STRICTLY TAIJUTSU NIGGAS !* The 8th Gate, Hirudora
Additional Info: Both are in base at the beginning of the battle. Scenarios are of the following:

*SCENARIOS*
Scenario 1: Base Gai vs Base Tsunade

Scenario 2: 5th Gate Gai vs Base Tsunade

Scenario 3: 5th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade

Scenario 4: 6th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade

**BONUS SCENARIO**
7th Gate Gai (Hirudora Unrestricted) vs Byakugo Tsunade (with 10% Katsuyu at her side)


Please provide a legitimate reason why either combatant wins, loses, or stalemates.

*READY?! FIGHT   !!!!!* *-RedChidori*


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## Mercurial (Aug 23, 2014)

Tsunade can't even dream to touch Gai that is a thousand times faster, swifter and more skilled in taijutsu. Gai dodges, blitzes and ragdolls her. This is the man that, being worn out and in base, could fight Obito's CQC Kamui without letting him lay a single finger to do the I-touch-I-win.


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## t0xeus (Aug 23, 2014)

Gai takes first two scenarios, then I don't see him injuring with punches/kicks Tsunade enough so she can't regenerate the damage, so Tsunade probably outlasts (if Byakugo is permanent for Tsunade ofc, if not, then Gai outlasts).

And for bonus scenario, Gai destroys once again.


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## bleakwinter (Aug 23, 2014)

Gai needs Asakujaku, Hridora, etc. to do any sort of substantially damage to Tsunade to the extent of killing her. Without it, all he can attempt to do is pummel her to death, which clearly won't be possible against someone who possesses Senju stamina, regeneration, and a healing ability capable of of healing the five Kage back to health even in their gravely wounded state. 6th gated Gai kicked 30% Kisame directly in the head and he still lived, leaving me to believe that gated punches and kicks areinsufficient to outdamage her regeneration. Even in the scenarios where Byakugo is restricted, Tsunade still has access to Souzou Saisei if she becomes too wounded, which would heal up all her injuries just fine.


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## Kyu (Aug 23, 2014)

Gai clearly more skilled in taijutsu. 

He beats the breaks off Tsunade in the scenarios where she doesn't have access to her regeneration jutsu.

W/ it she endures the punishment & puts him down once the gates take its toll on Gai's body.


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## Hachibi (Aug 23, 2014)

> Scenario 1: Base Gai vs Base Tsunade



Gai win Very High-Diff. While her strenght is superior than his, he should wear her with his superior skill in taijutsu along with his speed.



> Scenario 2: 5th Gate Gai vs Base Tsunade



Gai win High-Diff with the same reason as above except that he is in the same level in strenght as her now imo, so he kinda ragdoll her.



> Scenario 3: 5th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade



Does Byakugo heal Tsunade or it is just here for a strenght boost? Either way, she can outlast him now with various level of difficulty.



> Scenario 4: 6th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade


She win Very-High Diff if she has healing. Could go Either Way without.




> 7th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade (with 10% Katsuyu at her side)



10% Katsuyu give her the win with High-Diff thank to 7th Gate's speed.

So does Byakugo give her healing or just a strenght boost?


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## RedChidori (Aug 23, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Gai win Very High-Diff. While her strenght is superior than his, he should wear her with his superior skill in taijutsu along with his speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Byakugo only gives Tsunade super enhanced healing abilities. It doesn't boost her already monstrous strength .


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## OG Appachai (Aug 23, 2014)

> Scenario 1: Base Gai vs Base Tsunade


Gai wins no doubt he rapes in base especially when the nunchaku come out.



> Scenario 2: 5th Gate Gai vs Base Tsunade


Gai Rapes even more but ragdoll style



> Scenario 3: 5th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade


Tsunade takes a beating but outlasts



> Scenario 4: 6th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade


Morning Peacock Slays.



> 7th Gate Gai vs Byakugo Tsunade (with 10% Katsuyu at her side)


Taijutsu only but restricting Hirudora(somthing that actually is taijutsu) and allowing tsunade ninjutsu? unfair match up on this one . Tsunade wins this scenario too due to outlasting and help from godslug


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## RBL (Aug 23, 2014)

since it's 100% taijutsu.

gai wins all scenarios with low-mid diff, tsunade's punches aren't 100% taijutsu.


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## RedChidori (Aug 23, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Gai wins no doubt he rapes in base especially when the nunchaku come out.
> 
> 
> Gai Rapes even more but ragdoll style
> ...



Hirudora isn't restricted when Gai has the 7th Gate . I'll be sure to clarify that in the OP.


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## Veracity (Aug 24, 2014)

Does Tsuande atleast have chakra enhanced strength ? If she does then she can win. Gai may be more skilled but Tsuande has more destructive output, durabilty, resiliance, intelligence, chakra, endurance, ETC. Gai really has only 2 advantages compared to Tsuandes 6+ but the advantages he has are VERY important in this match up( skill + speed). It's also to note that Tsuande doesn't have to actually hit Gai, she can punch the ground around him creating an FRS sized crater + shockwave that would easily injure Gai , unlike Gai who has to actually land a good amount of hits. 

7 gated Gai wins though.


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## trance (Aug 24, 2014)

Gai is leagues above anyone else in the series in terms of taijutsu. He easily outmatches the likes of a primarily straight-forward brawler like Tsunade. Still, her strength is surpassed by only a handful, so he has to be careful not to get hit. With greater speed and knowledge of this, he has a chance.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 24, 2014)

Just saying, this isn't a taijutsu only match given that Tsunade has access to Byakugou and Sozou Saisei, which are ninjutsu. It would be more accurate to say it is a close combat match.

Anyway, Base Tsunade beats Base Gai - she's durable and resilient enough to take a lot of hits from Gai, while he would be hard pressed to take even one. She does struggle, especially because of the speed gap, but wins eventually by virtue of playing possum tactics.

Fifth Gated Gai is too much for Tsunade, she can't overcome the speed advantage and needs her medical ninjutsu to sustain her as he repeatedly lands hits. Gai wins mid difficulty at most.

Fifth Gated Gai is defeated by Byakugou Tsunade, who continually regenerates as Gai lands hits on her. She outlasts him, waits until he's on his cool-down period after he de-activates the fifth gate, and kills him while he's temporarily weakened. That, or she lands a lucky, fleeting hit during one of their many exchanges as he speeds into close range to hit her. 

As per the above. The only difference is that Gai will inflict more damage using Asa Kujaku, but even the flames that engulf Tsunade won't kill her given how incredibly resilient she is. Furthermore, if Gai used Asa Kujaku at a range, as he did against Kisame, Tsunade can bat away any fireballs that approach her using just her fists. Basically, she outlasts Gai again and kills him while he's temporarily weakened during his cool-down, she just sustains significantly more damage in doing so.

Seventh Gated Gai vs. a practically unrestricted Tsunade will always go in Tsunade's favour. No matter how many hits he lands she will just regenerate and keep fighting, and when he flies into the air and tries to blast a Hirudora at her, a massive 10% Katsuyu protects her and she probably doesn't even need Byakugou to sustain her since Katsuyu will have taken the brunt of the damage. Tsunade then finishes Gai off on his cool-down.​​


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## FlamingRain (Aug 24, 2014)

Tsunade's durable enough that she can be hit by projectiles hard enough that she gets flung into boulders with sufficient force to smash them and yet come out of it just fine, and she's resilient enough to keep fighting through actual injury like nothing's happened to her anyways even before regenerating, so she can definitely take base Gai's strikes without issue for a while, boulder shattering or no. Nun-chucks are outright inferior to Susano'o weapons, which Tsunade can already break, and a number of Gai's named techniques and combinations are aerial, and as a result poor choices of attack against Tsunade because she won't go flying so long as she isn't already in the air for whatever reason, and Gai can't even back out of danger in that scenario. Terrain destruction has also hindered Gai before during the battle with the Jinchūriki, and Tsunade is not above resorting to it IC.

So she definitely wins scenario 1.

In each of scenarios 3, 4, and 5 Tsunade outlasts his Gated state assault with her regeneration. Although, in scenario 5 I imagine she has a fair chance of catching Gai by surprise through a collaboration effort with Katsuyu (giant, divided, or melted, and maybe even each of them), so she may not have to wait for his stamina to tire out. If Ranshinshō were unrestricted (Byakugō is allowed, so idk if OP just means exclusively close-combat or if he really means Taijutsu-only sans Byakugō) she may have the option of "blocking" with it as well and shattering an unsuspecting Gai's neural system to end the match before waiting for him to exhaust himself.

The only scenario I see Gai taking is scenario 2. (Though again, with Ranshinshō Tsunade would have a shot).


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## Butterfly (Aug 26, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Tsunade can't even dream to touch Gai that is a thousand times faster, swifter and more skilled in taijutsu. Gai dodges, blitzes and ragdolls her. This is the man that, being worn out and in base, could fight Obito's CQC Kamui without letting him lay a single finger to do the I-touch-I-win.



Guy blitzes her, that I can agree with, but what attack does Base Guy have that can put her down? This is the woman that took Susanno's strongest ranged attack (as stated by Itachi) to the face and came out without being marred in any way shape or form - and this attack also breached a combined defense set up by Onoki and Gaara earlier. It's clear that Tsunade's physical durability (as also seen when Pain leveled Konoha) is off the charts that she can take hits as she pleases and just strike back while he's in her face. 

Guy can only take scenario 2, but even then with tsunade's durability, it might be possible she can strike back for a win once he thinks she's done for. 



t0xeus said:


> Gai takes first two scenarios, then I don't see him injuring with punches/kicks Tsunade enough so she can't regenerate the damage, so Tsunade probably outlasts (if Byakugo is permanent for Tsunade ofc, if not, then Gai outlasts).
> 
> And for bonus scenario, Gai destroys once again.


Guy doesn't have anything to put her down in base while a single blow from her without chakra enhanced strength is enough to knock someone out. 



OG Appachai said:


> Gai wins no doubt he rapes in base especially when the nunchaku come out.


He doesn't rape in base. Tsunade tanked Susanno's strongest ranged attack which made contact with her body. This attack went through Gaara and Onoki's defense earlier (although not fully) so she'll be able to take these attacks and just kill him in response with a punch (chakra enhanced or non chakra enhanced, it'll at least knock him out). 



> Gai Rapes even more but ragdoll style


I can agree with this. 



> Morning Peacock Slays.


Regeneration strikes back  



> Taijutsu only but restricting Hirudora(somthing that actually is taijutsu) and allowing tsunade ninjutsu? unfair match up on this one . Tsunade wins this scenario too due to outlasting and help from godslug


I can agree with this. Hirudora needs to be unrestricted because the truest OP character, Katsuyu, isn't. 

Guy can only take scenario two and even then, it's entirely dependent on Tsunade's durability. If this was purely taijutsu (no regeneration, etc) Guy would most likely win, barring him thinking Tsunade's done for and her surprise striking him, but truthfully I don't see that happening.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2014)

I wonder why Tsunade got a Katsuyu she is not able to summon by herself, that's a boost for her.

Base Gai should beat base Tsunade dodging her attacks or outspeeding her punches.

The scenarios where Tsunade gets Byakugo and Gai doesn't get his 7th gate are going to Tsunade, even though Gai in the 6th gate is able to outrun her regen as he punches notable faster than she can heal. The last scenario, where Gai in the 7th faces a boosted Tsunade with Katsuyu is going to Tsunade.


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## Butterfly (Aug 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I wonder why Tsunade got a Katsuyu she is not able to summon by herself, that's a boost for her.


Honestly, I think she could summon a 10% Katsuyu. You have to keep in mind that she wasn't able to totally refill her chakra with Karin, and, even then, had to heal the other kage. Even when she was bisected, she was able to summon a Katsuyu roughly half the size  - and this was post byakugo and battle against Madara. 



> Base Gai should beat base Tsunade dodging her attacks or outspeeding her punches.


But what does he have to put her down? She's already demonstrated the durability to remain unscathed from his attacks.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Honestly, I think she could summon a 10% Katsuyu. You have to keep in mind that she wasn't able to totally refill her chakra with Karin, and, even then, had to heal the other kage. Even when she was bisected, she was able to summon a Katsuyu roughly half the size  - and this was post byakugo and battle against Madara.



Sakura had more chakra than a god Naruto clone and she only could summon a 5% one, while Tsunade could as well summon the 5% one with her low chakra reserves.

Wich leads me to believe that they are restricted to the 5% one



> But what does he have to put her down? She's already demonstrated the durability to remain unscathed from his attacks.



Boulder crushing hits at insane speed should accumulate damage, though. It might take a while, but he can pull it off.


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## Butterfly (Aug 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Sakura had more chakra than a god Naruto clone and she only could summon a 5% one, while Tsunade could as well summon the 5% one with her low chakra reserves.
> 
> Wich leads me to believe that they are restricted to the 5% one


Tsunade seemed to be unaware of Sakura's stipulations, and, additionally, you have to keep in mind that they're both making conservative estimates when it comes to chakra. Not only would it be totally impractical to summon a really large Katsuyu and then have no chakra left to heal the army, but, summoning a really large Katsuyu in this case might not be the best option as other people would have to work around a giant slug for the attack. 





> Boulder crushing hits at insane speed should accumulate damage, though. It might take a while, but he can pull it off.


It would take a while. I don't think he could pull it off before Tsunade gets one strike in, especially since she can attack while he closes in on her, force him into the air, or shoulder him away. Base Guy could pummel her repeatedly, but i don't think he could defeat her before she gets her hit in and her hit would be the only one she needed.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Tsunade seemed to be unaware of Sakura's stipulations, and, additionally, you have to keep in mind that they're both making conservative estimates when it comes to chakra. Not only would it be totally impractical to summon a really large Katsuyu and then have no chakra left to heal the army, but, summoning a really large Katsuyu in this case might not be the best option as other people would have to work around a giant slug for the attack.



It's not that. Sakura had years stored in her seal. If a drained Tsunade could summon a 5% Katsuyu, then you can tell it cost little no to chakra, therefore summoning a 10% should not be a problem. If chakra quantity were a problem, summoning even a 20% Katsuyu would be nothing to them, but they couldn't. Sakura should be able to use it with her long chakra reserves and shrug it off like nothing, yet, she never did.

A 10% Katsuyu would also be a great help against Madara due to the size, yet, Tsunade never pulled it off. And the 10% was needed in there, she was more help than being a bother to the alliance. 

I actually don't think they can summon more than their 5%, considering they had every chance to summon and i would find weird that a 10% katsuyu would cost much more than twice the chakra it would be needed to summon the 5, and Tsunade said they both could summon the 10% because they were two and their 5% of the summon would merge. I don't think chakra was involved there.




> It would take a while. I don't think he could pull it off before Tsunade gets one strike in, especially since she can attack while he closes in on her, force him into the air, or shoulder him away. Base Guy could pummel her repeatedly, but i don't think he could defeat her before she gets her hit in and her hit would be the only one she needed.



He can considering he was able to avoid being warped away by Obito with only his striking speed. If we take into account that he could attack twice in mid-air before Obito could just touch him and he forced him to phase. Remembering that Obito had Sharingan precog and is faster than Tsunade, forced Minato to use Hiraishin in CqC and almost one panelled RM Naruto in CqC as well.... Then i don't see her getting a hold on Gai if he decides to hit and run.

She might tank a hit, but i don't think Gai's hits will be weak enough for her to shrug it off without flinching for the milisecond that Gai needs to strike again or jump back.


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## Butterfly (Aug 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> It's not that. Sakura had years stored in her seal. If a drained Tsunade could summon a 5% Katsuyu, then you can tell it cost little no to chakra, therefore summoning a 10% should not be a problem. If chakra quantity were a problem, summoning even a 20% Katsuyu would be nothing to them, but they couldn't. Sakura should be able to use it with her long chakra reserves and shrug it off like nothing, yet, she never did.


She had two years of chakra stored in her seal, and again, as previously highlighted, Tsunade had less than a substantial amount of chakra and Sakura needed her chakra for other endeavors, like healing a whole army. Tsunade's seal alone healed Konoha from Pain's destruction, and Konoha's shinobi reserves are implied to be in the thousands (regardless of how nonsensical it is), and this isn't factoring in the parade of civilians we consistently see. They just can't summon willy nilly. 




> A 10% Katsuyu would also be a great help against Madara due to the size, yet, Tsunade never pulled it off. And the 10% was needed in there, she was more help than being a bother to the alliance.


So? Ranshishou would also have been great help against Madara or Susanno clones yet she never used it. That doesn't mean she can't. A 10% against Madara wouldn't be helpful as you think anyways, because then Mei, A, Onoki and Gaara have to fight around a giant slug and it's acid spit/multiple clones. The only thing Katsuyu would be good for in this case would be defense. I don't see what the point of this is, because Tsunade will fully charged chakra, and Byakugo (provided it's more around the Pain Arc) would be more than capable of summoning Katsuyu at 10%. She doesn't have the burden of healing an entire army whose total in the tens of thousands this time around.  



> I actually don't think they can summon more than their 5%, considering they had every chance to summon and i would find weird that a 10% katsuyu would cost much more than twice the chakra it would be needed to summon the 5, and Tsunade said they both could summon the 10% because they were two and their 5% of the summon would merge. I don't think chakra was involved there.


I think there are more factors in play than just the amount of chakra they have. Utility, future uses of chakra, total amounts of chakra, etc. 



> He can considering he was able to avoid being warped away by Obito with only his striking speed. If we take into account that he could attack twice in mid-air before Obito could just touch him and he forced him to phase. Remembering that Obito had Sharingan precog and is faster than Tsunade, forced Minato to use Hiraishin in CqC and almost one panelled RM Naruto in CqC as well.... Then i don't see her getting a hold on Gai if he decides to hit and run.


If Gai decides to hit and run then it only serves to make Tsunade able to heal herself with shosen as she waits for Gai to approach. I agree, base Gai's speed is quick but I don't think it's so quick that she's not going to be unable to hit him. She was able to hit Orochimaru despite hampered muscles and three stab wounds, she was able to take out a Madara clone before it could react despite these clones possessing the speed to put A in a genjutsu when they off guard. Tsunade isn't _slow_, and if it's just a matter of attacking through something, she should be more than capable of punching through as Guy's punching her. 




> She might tank a hit, but i don't think Gai's hits will be weak enough for her to shrug it off without flinching for the milisecond that Gai needs to strike again or jump back.


She shrugged off a YM and being tossed into a boulder. She was able to release her seal and transfer her chakra while Konoha was being turned into an empty lake (and keep in mind, this impact was enough to break legs, kill people, etc. and many were only saved because of Katsuyu). When Orochimaru stabbed her three times, the only thing hampering her was her fear of blood, as the moment she got over that she attacked him (despite the fact that he was watching her intently to notice she stopped trembling). Tsunade's ability to keep on fighting through the damage is ridiculous, and, if we're looking at this from a physics stand point, Tsuande obviously has to withstand her own impacts and the force she puts on the ground otherwise she'd run the risk of injury. Her resilience has provided some of the best feats in the manga, she awoke before the other, less injured kages, and healed them for what seems to be a substantial period of time before while being _sliced in half_. Guy's punches aren't going to be doing anything to her, her sense of focus is impeccable. 

Even as Guy runs around punching everything, every encounter runs the risk of a well timed counter attack. As Guy continues to tag her, he's using up chakra and Tsunade certainly has more chakra than he does. Additionally, depending on _how_ he attacks her, she might be able to recognize the patterns of his attack and maneuver around them. After all, she was able to land hits on someone with Sharingan precog and Rinnegan, which I believe would imply linked vision amongst the clones (although I might be wrong about this so feel free to dispute it).


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## Veracity (Aug 26, 2014)

Rep to you butterfly, some amazing points you brought up .

People also tend to forget that Tsuande can create and explosion with this area of effect with a single hit: _sent flying_

Meaning that A taijustu expert like Gai will have to notice Tsuande is aiming for the ground and completely evade the AoE basically instantly. Yeah that's not happening. To make matters worse, this battle tactic is unpredictable . Gai could force CQC, land a couple of hits, and then Tsunade could throw a punch...miss, hit the ground and Gai would get caught right in the explosion.


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## Jad (Aug 26, 2014)

Editing post [Only posting for Base Gai vs. Base Tsunade | Unrestricted Gai vs. Unresriected Tsunade:











​


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## tari101190 (Aug 27, 2014)

Tsunade wins in ever CQC matchup 4/5 times. 

If she has Byakugou, she heals after a Gated Gai attack. Gai is too drained to handle her full power after she's healed and his stamina is spent.

Tsunade is a taijutsu specialist. She is world renowned and heralded as one of the strongest three ninja in the world for a long while. Why on Earth would she not be able to defeat Gai? Gai isn't so fast that he cannot be touched.


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## xenos5 (Aug 27, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> Tsunade wins in ever CQC matchup 4/5 times.
> 
> If she has Byakugou, she heals after a Gated Gai attack. Gai is too drained to handle her full power after she's healed and his stamina is spent.
> 
> Tsunade is a taijutsu specialist. She is world renowned and heralded as one of the strongest three ninja in the world for a long while. Why on Earth would she not be able to defeat Gai? Gai isn't so fast that he cannot be touched.



during the war arc Gai,s been using gates consistently. his stamina doesn,t run out as nearly as fast as you think it does -_-
Gai has the best taijutsu in the series. he can redirect her attacks guard against them and use them against her. it,s like having a brawler fight a martial arts teacher. what I think happens is that she has to heal too many times and runs out of chakra while she can barely get any hits off on Gai. 

the speed difference between Gai in gates and tsunade is to the point where he can stand still and slightly tilt his head or his body to dodge her attacks like final form frieza was doing to gohan and krillin. even in base he,s still faster than her and still has the advantage of more skill in taijutsu. 

don,t underestimate the green beast of konoha


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 27, 2014)

You people need to stop. Tsunades best durable feat was tanking Magatama.
That teleporter was shit and clearly it was outdated. The woman said the last man to survive was the 3 rd Raikage only how long ago?

Her head isn't durable, Gai kicks her head off GG.


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## xenos5 (Aug 27, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> You people need to stop. Tsunades best durable feat was tanking Magatama.
> That teleporter was shit and clearly it was outdated. The woman said the last man to survive was the 3 rd Raikage only how long ago?
> 
> Her head isn't durable, Gai kicks her head off GG.



I don,t get why these people think regeneration will make up for a speed, skill and strength difference 
-_-

they should just accept that the power of youth solos their fav


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## Veracity (Aug 27, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> I don,t get why these people think regeneration will make up for a speed, skill and strength difference
> -_-
> 
> they should just accept that the power of youth solos their fav



Did you just say strength difference ?


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## FlamingRain (Aug 28, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> I don,t get why these people think regeneration will make up for a speed, skill *and strength difference *
> -_-



      



Kazekage94 said:


> Tsunades best durable feat was tanking Magatama.



Still one heck of a feat.



> The woman said the last man to survive was the 3 rd Raikage only how long ago?



That doesn't make the feat out-dated; she said the Third Raikage the only man to ever survive it, not that he was the last one to try it.

It's not as if that makes the feat less impressive anyway. What do you think everybody started popping nonexistent durability-boost pills or something once the Third Raikage died?



> Her head isn't durable.



Based on what? Her head wasn't split into ribbons and paste by Tensō no Jutsu and it was no less exposed than the rest of her body.


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## xenos5 (Aug 28, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Did you just say strength difference ?



The scenarios in which tsunade has regeneration are all against gai with gates. Gai with gates 6 and up should be stronger than tsunade. Maybe even 5 but that,s a little iffy.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 28, 2014)

Base Guy didn't go against Shoten Kisame without being hit, and that guy's a power fighter who's slower, weaker, less skilled, and less durable than Tsunade.


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## OG Appachai (Aug 28, 2014)

^kisame is not slower than tsunade bro and not les skilled, kisame was reacting and fighting on par with killer Bee, someone who is faster the sasuke who has sharingan precog.

Also, the only reason Gai got tagged by kisame was because he had no knowledge on his strength and attempted to parry his strike, in these scenarios he has knowledge on her strength so Gai will not attempt to parry.


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## Veracity (Aug 28, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> The scenarios in which tsunade has regeneration are all against gai with gates. Gai with gates 6 and up should be stronger than tsunade. Maybe even 5 but that,s a little iffy.



7th Gate Gai may be stronger then Tsunade if you agree that his AT destroyed Madara's Sussano and that isn't anything that is confirmed. That's also practically a technique lol. But 6th the Gai isn't even close to the level of Tsuande . He had to fire 10's of fire balls into Kisames body just to put him down, while Tsunade can bust Sussano with a solid kick. The striking difference is ridiculous.


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## JuicyG (Aug 28, 2014)

5 gates and up Tsunade's head flies off GG

If she can't react to the speed how does she outlasts ? Why would Gai continually beat on Tsunade's body until he dies out ? He's not stupid.

Gai goes 5,6,7 Gates, and for over kill 8 gates and goes straight for the head...

Its over in mere moments


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## LostSelf (Aug 28, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> She had two years of chakra stored in her seal, and again, as previously highlighted, Tsunade had less than a substantial amount of chakra and Sakura needed her chakra for other endeavors, like healing a whole army. Tsunade's seal alone healed Konoha from Pain's destruction, and Konoha's shinobi reserves are implied to be in the thousands (regardless of how nonsensical it is), and this isn't factoring in the parade of civilians we consistently see. They just can't summon willy nilly.



I might be wrong, but i don't see how this changes what i said. 10% Katsuyu should be only twice as hard to summon than the 5% one, wich Tsunade could do with barely chakra. 



> So? Ranshishou would also have been great help against Madara or Susanno clones yet she never used it. That doesn't mean she can't. A 10% against Madara wouldn't be helpful as you think anyways, because then Mei, A, Onoki and Gaara have to fight around a giant slug and it's acid spit/multiple clones. The only thing Katsuyu would be good for in this case would be defense. I don't see what the point of this is, because Tsunade will fully charged chakra, and Byakugo (provided it's more around the Pain Arc) would be more than capable of summoning Katsuyu at 10%. She doesn't have the burden of healing an entire army whose total in the tens of thousands this time around.



Rashinshou would be innefective against Madara considering he can bust Susano'o without moving, it would also be greatly innefective against his clones because she was not able to touch the bodies because of Susano'o. The Gokage were losing against the clones, therefore, Katsuyu would've been a great help there.



> I think there are more factors in play than just the amount of chakra they have. Utility, future uses of chakra, total amounts of chakra, etc.



There's also the fact of a speculation. Because a bigger Katsuyu was needed for the aliance, because the 5% one was not able to heal all of them or to protect all of them, so Katsuyu there would've been very, very useful. Especially when Juubi was stealing the life force of everybody and killing the Katsuyu clones. Yet, Sakura, even with a KCM Cloack was unable to do it and Tsunade said that they both should be able to do it together. Only this makes me only believe it when i see it, actually.



> If Gai decides to hit and run then it only serves to make Tsunade able to heal herself with shosen as she waits for Gai to approach. I agree, base Gai's speed is quick but I don't think it's so quick that she's not going to be unable to hit him. She was able to hit Orochimaru despite hampered muscles and three stab wounds, she was able to take out a Madara clone before it could react despite these clones possessing the speed to put A in a genjutsu when they off guard. Tsunade isn't _slow_, and if it's just a matter of attacking through something, she should be more than capable of punching through as Guy's punching her.



But this fight, in base, should be without healing if i am not mistaken. Hitting Orochimaru and a Madara clone isn't the same as attacking twice as fast as the man that was too fast for RM Naruto to avoid, because if Gai didn't help him, Obito was going to warp him in a two-movements maneuver. Minato is the same.

On top of that, the conditions here are very different. Gai against Obito was not only in a bad position because he was in mid-air, but he will be in the floor here, wich will make his dodging attempt easier against a considerably slower (compared to Obito) opponent. If he sees himself in a bad position, he can jump back before she strikes him just like he was able to attack twice before an Obito that didn't even had to dodge could finish an arm siwing.



> She shrugged off a YM and being tossed into a boulder. She was able to release her seal and transfer her chakra while Konoha was being turned into an empty lake (and keep in mind, this impact was enough to break legs, kill people, etc. and many were only saved because of Katsuyu). When Orochimaru stabbed her three times, the only thing hampering her was her fear of blood, as the moment she got over that she attacked him (despite the fact that he was watching her intently to notice she stopped trembling). Tsunade's ability to keep on fighting through the damage is ridiculous, and, if we're looking at this from a physics stand point, Tsuande obviously has to withstand her own impacts and the force she puts on the ground otherwise she'd run the risk of injury. Her resilience has provided some of the best feats in the manga, she awoke before the other, less injured kages, and healed them for what seems to be a substantial period of time before while being _sliced in half_. Guy's punches aren't going to be doing anything to her, her sense of focus is impeccable.



She didn't shrugged off a YM, she tanked a Mini Yasaka Magatama. The jutsu is not as powerful as the big one and we don't even know if it hits harder than Gai's Soushuga. Chou Shinra Tensei didn't even hit her directly considering that the ANBU that was with her was not protected and survived, or at least, was not seen protected in any moment. She was hit by the destruction the jutsu created. She was hindered by Orochimaru's slasheds. And being sliced in half is a good feat, but she was obviously dying and unable to move properly, therefore she didn't srugg this attack.

I may disagree with Gai's hit not doing a thing to her.  A non healing Tsunade won't be able to overcome the accumulating damage on boulder crushing hits that were said to be impressive by Obito, the man that took a Rasengan to the face.



> Even as Guy runs around punching everything, every encounter runs the risk of a well timed counter attack. As Guy continues to tag her, he's using up chakra and Tsunade certainly has more chakra than he does. Additionally, depending on _how_ he attacks her, she might be able to recognize the patterns of his attack and maneuver around them. After all, she was able to land hits on someone with Sharingan precog and Rinnegan, which I believe would imply linked vision amongst the clones (although I might be wrong about this so feel free to dispute it).



Why would he use chakra? He is a physical beast, his attack doesn't use chakra at all. This is the man that used the bone destroying gates all over the war, that bused the 7th Gate and then busted the eight and was able to bent time and space like nothing. Non-healing Tsunade is not physically outlasting Gai, especially if she is receiving the hits.

She may tag him as i don't think Gai wins every time, but like i said, he could attack and counter attack before the faster Obito with Sharingan precog and without the need of dodging could touch him in close combat. So he should be able to attack twice or more before she does to interrupt her movements or jump back before she hits him.

She landed hits on a non trying Madara and the clones had no need to avoid as they were either way beating her and Madara was toying. He already reacted to a surprise attack from Ei and was able to put up his guard when V1 Ei's fist was less than one inch from his face. He always could react to her if he wanted to.

About the linked vision, i am actually not sure. Nagato might've had it because his paths were different than Madara's clones. They were extensions of his own body more or less while Madara's clones weren't. However, i am not sure, like i said and i wouldn't be surprised if they had it. I can take it too, though.


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## xenos5 (Aug 28, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> 7th Gate Gai may be stronger then Tsunade if you agree that his AT destroyed Madara's Sussano and that isn't anything that is confirmed. That's also practically a technique lol. But 6th the Gai isn't even close to the level of Tsuande . He had to fire 10's of fire balls into Kisames body just to put him down, while Tsunade can bust Sussano with a solid kick. The striking difference is ridiculous.



I disagree, but don,t have any sufficient evidence that I remember at this moment to prove anything about Gai,s strength as of now.

what I will say is this: the difference in skill should not be overlooked because of regeneration. if tsunade,s hits never land and all of Gai,s do he,s not going to get easily worn out. he can evade redirect and use tsunade,s own attacks against her with taijutsu so she has a higher chance of getting worn down before he does. Gai,s taijutsu is the best in the series so a head on brawler style like the one tsunade uses is not going to do anything to him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 28, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> ^kisame is not slower than tsunade bro and not les skilled, kisame was reacting and fighting on par with killer Bee, someone who is faster the sasuke who has sharingan precog.
> 
> Also, the only reason Gai got tagged by kisame was because he had no knowledge on his strength and attempted to parry his strike, in these scenarios he has knowledge on her strength so Gai will not attempt to parry.



You mean 100% Kisame got his chest caved in by Killer Bee.

The only time he was fighting on par was when he put up the water dome and fused with Samehada, so he could swim at retardo speeds underwater, while Bee's speed was slowed to breast stroke.

I'm talking Shoten Kisame here.  30%.  Base Guy didn't get a clean kick that was "too fast to react to" until after he went 5 gates and kicked him up for AK.

Do you think 30% Kisame, who got disarmed by Lee and hit by Neji's airpalm, is faster and more skilled than the Tsunade who could not be useless in the Gokage fight?


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## OG Appachai (Aug 28, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You mean 100% Kisame got his chest caved in by Killer Bee.



That was V2 Bee a stronger version than the one sasuke fought. Kisame was going toe to toe with base bee and v1 bee,a faster version than sasuke had to fight and only got hurt badly once bee went V2(and got immensely faster). So once again base bee and V1 bee are faster and more skilled than tsunade. 




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'm talking Shoten Kisame here. 30%. Base Guy didn't get a clean kick that was "too fast to react to" until after he went 5 gates and kicked him up for AK.
> 
> Do you think 30% Kisame, who got disarmed by Lee and hit by Neji's airpalm, is faster and more skilled than the Tsunade who could not be useless in the Gokage fight?



most of the fight was off paneled we have no idea what happened before what was shown. What we do know if that gai disarmed kisame himself and was about counter if not for samehada spikes, so its safe to say Gai parobsbly got some hits in. And besides that, you act as if it was a long time, from waht we saw, gai and kisame clashed 2 times and then gai went to the 6th gate, so dont say "until" as if it took gai many times to land a hit.

But for get all that, this is just proof that kisame is way faster than tsunade and has better reaction and cqc skills too. Just because kisame was able to touch him, doesnt mean tsunade can.

Kisame was literally fighting 4 people at once, 3 being CQC masters, 3 being faster than tsuande, and one being a long range fighter. Just because he got disarmed doesn't mean anything when comparing to tsunade, anyone would have lost their weapon if they had one. 

And dont bring up the edo madara fight, its common knowledge that he wasnt even seriously fighting the gokage.


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## Veracity (Aug 28, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> I disagree, but don,t have any sufficient evidence that I remember at this moment to prove anything about Gai,s strength as of now.
> 
> what I will say is this: the difference in skill should not be overlooked because of regeneration. if tsunade,s hits never land and all of Gai,s do he,s not going to get easily worn out. he can evade redirect and use tsunade,s own attacks against her with taijutsu so she has a higher chance of getting worn down before he does. Gai,s taijutsu is the best in the series so a head on brawler style like the one tsunade uses is not going to do anything to him.



I will agree that Gai has more taijustu skill, but I don't see a reason to believe his taijustu skill is so far above Tsuande she will not even be able land hits. I mean Gais taijustu forte is shifty and more acrobatic , while Tsuande focuses on linear and straight forward taijustu attacks . Why? Because she can and she has the durabilty|regeneration to do so while being extremely effective. The misconception that an individual needs to be constantly back flipping and twirling constantly while throwing punches/kicks to actually be an impressive taijustu expert is ridiculous and is seen on this forums to much. You can be even more impressive at CQC with just linear techniques( Wolverine, WW Hulk, Captain America). We always tend to forgot that both Gai and Tsuande both hold perfect taijustu scores and Tsuande could very well perform insane evading , kicking, and punching techniques, but it doesn't cope eh her fighting style so there's no point really. Although I admit Gai is superior to Tsuande in taijustu via hype, don't think he is far above her. Matter of fact, the only reason id credit Gai > Tsuande in taijustu is based on his exaggerated moves( Morning Peacock| Afternoon Tiger) and his mastery over several martial art styles.

The difference is that Tsuande has much more stamina and endurance then Gai, and Gais taijustu style warrants more stamina drain then Tsuande. Tsuande just tanks attacks and throws well placed counter strikes. Gai is constantly flipping and twirling. Tsuande can easily outlast.

How exactly is he going to redirect Tsunade force against her without being physically stronger then her and without sustaining the blow himself ? 

Also people tend to forget that Tsuande can miss a punch, hit the surface of the ground and create an explosion this big: she didn't start fighting w/ Ei 
Gai is not going to escape an AoE the size of the FRS instantly without first sustaining a massive amount of damage.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 28, 2014)

Madara wasn't serious against the Shinobi Alliance he was murdering left and right either.

Madara wasn't serious against Guy and BM Naruto and he was murdering them too.

Madara wasn't serious against the Gokage, but he still had to resort to a mokubunshin to avoid getting sealed, because they continuously forced him to up his game until he had to pull his trump card to avoid losing.

Madara acknowledged their power and worth as kage.  in particular, he acknowledged Tsunade as a strong Senju.  Do you think Madara would have acknowledged the power and worth of 30% Kisame?


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## OG Appachai (Aug 28, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara wasn't serious against Guy and BM Naruto and he was murdering them too.


LOL

10char


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 28, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> LOL
> 
> 10char



What lol.

Guy was tied up and bleeding out of his eyes and mouth.  Hachibi is layed out on the ground commenting on how unbelievable Madara is.  Then Madara says he wasn't being serious up until then.


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## OG Appachai (Aug 28, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> What lol.


my bad i thought you were talking about 7th and 8th gated Gai, excuse me.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Guy was tied up and bleeding out of his eyes and mouth.  Hachibi is layed out on the ground commenting on how unbelievable Madara is.  Then Madara says he wasn't being serious up until then.


Yea he was holding back and beat base gai big whoop, we know its well within his power to do so

Plus, Youre taking this panel out of context, Madara was directly talking to Naruto so at this point he was specifically holding back against naruto. But whatever, he was holding back.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara wasn't serious against the Shinobi Alliance he was murdering left and right either.



Its well within his power to do so



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara wasn't serious against Guy and BM Naruto and he was murdering them too.



its well within his power to do so



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara wasn't serious against the Gokage, but he still had to resort to a mokubunshin to avoid getting sealed, because they continuously forced him to up his game until he had to pull his trump card to avoid losing.


WHAT? no, he was steadily increasing the difficulty to toy with them, thats how he was having his fun. They didnt force him to do shit, he busted out PS to show how far above them he is as a show of power, and the moment he did that, they all shat themselves.


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara acknowledged their power and worth as kage.  in particular, he acknowledged Tsunade as a strong Senju.


He acknowledge her as not being weak, whether if he said that or not its obvious he was still holding back.

Fact of the matter is, a serious madara would end them in no time flat with PS from the get go

EDIT: we done went way off topic bro, and i have no idea where youre going with this argument by bringing up those instances of madara holding back


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 29, 2014)

I'm arguing that you can't throw away all feats and comparisons with Madara just because he wasn't going 100% against everyone.  Madara did fight both Tsunade with high level help, and (base) Guy with high level help, so we can use how much effort Madara put into the fight to judge them.

Think about it like the Bell Game in Part I.  Who did better against Kakashi, Sasuke, Naruto, or Sakura?

Most people would say Sasuke did the best, because he made Kakashi put away his book, and he almost touched a bell.  They'll say Sakura did the worst because she fainted with a simple genjutsu trick, andthat Naruto did somewhere in-between because he was using clones and surprised Kakashi a little bit.  So we can make judgements about all three of them and rate them in relationship to how they did against Kakashi.

What we don't do is say none of that counts, because Kakashi was holding back, and could have killed all of them in a moment if he wanted to.  But for some reason people do that with Madara.


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## OG Appachai (Aug 29, 2014)

Okay and this is where i disagree at. Yes we can "throw away" those feats because we know for a fact that if the opposing party was remotely focused on winning the fight as soon as possible and not talking shit the whole time then those feats would not have happened, tsunade would not have gotten a hit in on madara if he was actively looking to dodge or counter, onoki's jinton would not have touched him if he was serious he even admitted that he let the jinton touch him so they could see hashirama's face. Mei is fodder compared to him and he was hadling Ei with little difficulty.

The gokage as a collective unit would have died 10 times over if he was bloodlusted like he was against hashirama, and even then he didnt instantly kill them, just hurt them enough to die slowly.

But yea this is common knowledge in these forums that he was holding back, and even though he attempted to kill them while holding back just means that its well within his power to do so. 

I can still punch a toddler in the face during a boxing match and breaks their nose without using my full strength. Did the toddler force me to use my full strength? NO its just well within my power to hold back and still win


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 29, 2014)

So we can make no judgments about the skills of Sasuke, Sakura, and Naruto from their bell game test against Kakashi because Kakashi wasn't trying?

Sasuke didn't make Kakashi put away his book?


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## Bkprince33 (Aug 30, 2014)

Base gai wins all scenario's the hardest being, the base scenario.


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## LostSelf (Aug 30, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Do you think 30% Kisame, who got disarmed by Lee and hit by Neji's airpalm, is faster and more skilled than the Tsunade who could not be useless in the Gokage fight?



Powerscaling, dear POW, powerscaling .

Gai, along with Kakashi, was of the ones that got a significantly boost in the war. From using gates and being tired, to busting it like nothing. By feats, the Gai that fought Kisame is significantly weaker than the Gai that fought Obito. Kishimoto might not think of it very much, though. But being unable of blitzing Kisame to being able to prevent a touch from a seasoned Sharingan user that can phase through all your attacks after he had days of fighting in the war, probably using gates is quite notable.

I don't think the Gai that fought 30% Kisame would be a good example in this fight, though. But i always thought that Kisame was only hindered in chakra, not in his physical attributes. But that's just me.


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