# Akainu vs Marco and Jozu



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 9, 2013)

Location: Marineford, starting distance is 60 meters.
Intel: Full.
Mindest: Bloodlusted.
Restrictions: None.

All three are Pre TS versions.


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## Goomoonryong (Nov 9, 2013)

Probably Marco and Jozu very high diff.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

Marco and Jozu with moderate difficulty.


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## Katou (Nov 9, 2013)

Team B wins . . Extreme Difficulty


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 9, 2013)

Marco is marginally weaker than Akainu, and Jozu is slightly weaker than Marco. Together, I'd imagine they could take him down, but it'd be a hard fight, given how resilient and durable all three characters here are.


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## Vengeance (Nov 9, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Marco is marginally weaker than Akainu, and Jozu is slightly weaker than Marco. Together, I'd imagine they could take him down, but it'd be a hard fight, given how resilient and durable all three characters here are.



Imo the gap between Akainu and Marco isn't that small. 
Still I think it could either way, but if I had to decide my money would be on Akainu.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

Akainu is not beating Marco and Jozu at once. That's just stupid. They were 2/3 of the Whitebeard pirates monster trio in the war that were implied to be evenly matched with the 3 admirals; 1 of them is not going to solo. That's not only fucking retarded, but it has virtually _no_ basis. 

Honestly, you people are way too deluded with Akainu's "feats" later on and just fail to acknowledge Marco's and Jozu's accomplishments. From war portrayal we can infer that, while Marco may be below the admirals (that's debatable as well), he's at least in the same ballpark as them and could give any a tough fight. Jozu is a bit below Marco and has just as impressive showings; he casually redirected a slash from Mihawk, performed the second greatest strength feat in the manga, and later on fought _Akainu's equal_, who could not land a single hit on him without a convenient distraction despite having a solid element to keep him at bay (he could ignore Jozu's defense with his freezing techniques). 

Akainu beating both of these fighters, who have fought alongside each other for years and view one another as brothers *at once* - honestly, acknowledge the difficulty behind fighting multiple people - is preposterous.


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## November (Nov 9, 2013)

^I think you mean Aokiji there.

Also i?m agree


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 9, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> Imo the gap between Akainu and Marco isn't that small.
> Still I think it could either way, but if I had to decide my money would be on Akainu.



I would think that Marco is at least in the same ballpark, based on his performances against Kizaru and Aokiji. Akainu is definitely stronger, but the gap isn't to the point where he can take Marco on plus another fighter on a similar level to him.


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## Vengeance (Nov 9, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Akainu is not beating Marco and Jozu at once. That's just stupid. They were 2/3 of the Whitebeard pirates monster trio in the war that were implied to be evenly matched with the 3 admirals; 1 of them is not going to solo. That's not only fucking retarded, but it has virtually _no_ basis.
> 
> Honestly, you people are way too deluded with Akainu's "feats" later on and just fail to acknowledge Marco's and Jozu's accomplishments. From war portrayal we can infer that, while Marco may be below the admirals (that's debatable as well), he's at least in the same ballpark as them and could give any a tough fight. Jozu is a bit below Marco and has just as impressive showings; he casually redirected a slash from Mihawk, performed the second greatest strength feat in the manga, and later on fought _Akainu's equal_, who could not land a single hit on him without a convenient distraction despite having a solid element to keep him at bay (he could ignore Jozu's defense with his freezing techniques).
> 
> Akainu beating both of these fighters, who have fought alongside each other for years and view one another as brothers *at once* - honestly, acknowledge the difficulty behind fighting multiple people - is preposterous.



No it's not stupid to question their win imo
Both Marco and Jozu weren't portrayed as that strong in the offensive, and they are up against the man who
-  has one of the deadliest powers in the manga
-  fought on equal terms with Whitebeard and his quake powers
-  took two point black quake punches and was able to continue fighting a short time later
  ( and despite his condition he wasn't stopped after this temporary defeat)
-  took two point black attacks from enraged Marco and Vista without too much trouble
-  was able to fight an equal opponent for 10 days and emerge victorious


Where do Marco and Jozu stand?

Marco:
Marco managed to seemingly fight on par with Kizaru, some exchange with kicks, 
neither really hurt the other. Impressive, but mostly based on his great defensive powers.
Blocked Akainu's attack: Ok, also impressive.
Was he actually able to really hurt some top tier during the war? Nope

Jozu:
Made Aokiji bleed with a point black attack and almost took out Croc.
Was able to stand his ground against Aokiji, but one mistake and he was done.
Again not really someone with impressive offensive moves.

So in general the Marco and Jozu are portrayed as people who are inferior to Akainu and lack attacks on his level, but can still hold their own quite well. 
But  is it enough for the 2 of them to surely win this, do they have enough strength and offensive power to surely put Akainu down or outlast him and deal with all those lethal
magma attacks? I have my doubts.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 9, 2013)

The gap between Marco and Akainu is not small, but still Team 2 Wins Extreme Difficulty and just Marco survives because of his phoenix form .


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## GrizzlyClaws (Nov 9, 2013)

Pre skip version, i'd say Marco and Jozu win very high diff. They should have splendid teamwork which will be crucial in dealing with a deadly person such as akainu. Also i'd like to see how Akainus and Jozus powers interact with each other. Off the top of my head i'd say Jozu should be immune to Magma, but on the other hand i think with akainus better haki he could maybe overpower jozus diamond form and deal reduced damage. Still jozu should have high resilience against magma. And as for marco, we already saw him tanking akainus attacks and not flinching an inch.


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## Beckman (Nov 9, 2013)

Always find it hilarious how people try to convince themself that Marco & Jozu lacks offensive powers just becasue they don't have any flashy large scale AoE attacks. Akainu & Aokiji fought eachother for 10 days, it's kinda obvious that they wouldn't colapse after a few punches from Marco & Jozu but that doesn't mean they're not taking any damage.

Jozus tackle on Aokiji made about as much damage as Garps punch on Marco yet I've yet to see anyone trying to argue that Garp lacks offensive powers.

Akainu ain't winning this.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

> No it's not stupid to question their win imo



Yes it is. 



> Both Marco and Jozu weren't portrayed as that strong in the offensive, and they are up against the man who



According to who? You? They don't have super awesome, flashy, lethal moves if that is your definition of good offense. Luffy then doesn't have good offense either. Neither has Garp. 

Besides, defense is their specialty anyway.



> has one of the deadliest powers in the manga



Which canonically did absolutely nothing to Marco and will in all likelihood do absolutely nothing to Jozu, unless he lands virtually hundreds of attacks on them which is impossible because he's fighting 2 people at once.



> fought on equal terms with Whitebeard and his quake powers



Yeah, and Jozu fought on equal terms with Aokiji. What is your point here? Not getting steamrolled by an impaled and restricted Whitebeard who already faced and exerted himself against numerous powerful enemies doesn't mean anything here. 



> took two point black quake punches and was able to continue fighting a short time later



Okay. 



> took two point black attacks from enraged Marco and Vista without too much trouble



Okay.



> was able to fight an equal opponent for 10 days and emerge victorious



Okay.







You've yet to make a decent argument why any of these things suggest Akainu can handle both Jozu and Marco at once. Citing Akainu's feats and then using them to say why 2 virtually featless people can't beat him is fallacious. 

Did we ever see Marco's full arsenal? Did we ever see the limit of his regeneration? Did we ever see how much damage Jozu's diamond can sustain? The limit of _his_ arsenal? 

Unless you provide me manga evidence for all these things, I'm not going to bother with you listing Akainu's feats and tell you, _just fucking read the manga. _

When Oda deliberately has Marco face all 3 admirals within the same arc, and not have him lose the edge once, what is the picture Oda is trying to paint? When he shoves it into our faces that Kizaru _requires_ outside help to dispatch him, what does that mean? Could it mean that Marco is *gasp* shockingly on par with the admirals? Or are the admirals stronger because their abilites have been simply exploited much more making them seem more impressive?

When we _see_ how someone - for all intents and purposes - just as powerful as Akainu can not do a single thing to Jozu without a convenient free opening, does that not mean that a tough fight would occur under regular circumstances? 

Marco and Jozu are both powerful enough to give Akainu tough fights on their own. They're both members of the Whitebeard pirates monster trio who have been matched with the 3 admirals; a point I've already brought up earlier but you for whatever reason ignored. The two of them, fighting together,  can beat a single admiral. Saying Akainu has more impressive *feats* so he wins against 2 people who've barely had panel time to flash out their own abilites is stupid.

2 of Whitebeard's best men can beat a single admiral and it's not going to be close or anything like that.


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## trance (Nov 9, 2013)

Been done. Marco and Jozu win with high-extreme difficulty. Sakazuki has inpressive feats, a strong portrayal and is stronger than both individually but he's not capable of defeating Marco and Jozu at the same time.


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## Mihawk (Nov 9, 2013)

Marco alone can push Akainu to high diff
Jozu can push him to mid diff

Together, the brothers win high difficulty


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## Sentomaru (Nov 9, 2013)

I hate to admit it but Akainu would lose. Marco + Jozu are a deadly combination, while Marco lacks offensive skills and Jozu mobility together they're one hell of a combo.

I strongly believe that Akainu could beat Marco + Vista, though.


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## Rob (Nov 9, 2013)

Extreme either way.


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## Kid (Nov 9, 2013)

Akainu takes this.


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## Freechoice (Nov 9, 2013)

There is absolutely no way Akainu is winning this.


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## jNdee~ (Nov 9, 2013)

Akainu with beard >> No beard.

I'll be patient to wait.


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## Vengeance (Nov 9, 2013)

I can't see anything to convince me that Marco's and Jozu's victory is certain. 




> According to who? You? They don't have super awesome, flashy, lethal moves if that is your definition of good offense.


According to the manga... We saw what an enraged Marco was able to do to a already severly hurt Akainu with a point black attack. Not much.
Marco and Jozu are not on the same level as the admirals concerning their offensive powers.



> Which canonically did absolutely nothing to Marco and will in all likelihood do absolutely nothing to Jozu, unless he lands virtually hundreds of attacks on them which is impossible because he's fighting 2 people at once.



Marco and Akainu had no consistent fight, at least not a shown one. And Marco managed to do absolutely nothing to Akainu as well, even from point black and enraged it wasn't doing much.




> Did we ever see Marco's full arsenal?



Again, can you imagine a better opportunity than the one where Akainu had already killed Ace and an enraged Marco had a free shot on him? Why shouldn't he have used his strongest attack or one of them there?



> When Oda deliberately has Marco face all 3 admirals within the same arc, and not have him lose the edge once, what is the picture Oda is trying to paint? When he shoves it into our faces that Kizaru requires outside help to dispatch him, what does that mean? Could it mean that Marco is *gasp* shockingly on par with the admirals? Or are the admirals stronger because their abilites have been simply exploited much more making them seem more impressive?



It shows that the admirals can't put Marco down in a shorter amount of time, that doesn't mean that they are not superior to him...



> When we see how someone - for all intents and purposes - just as powerful as Akainu can not do a single thing to Jozu without a convenient free opening, does that not mean that a tough fight would occur under regular circumstances?



Jozu coulnd't do shit against Aokiji as well, but if one of them does a mistake it shows their difference.
Jozu and Marco had a convenient free opening on Aokiji: Nothing happened.
Aokiji had a convenient free opening on Jozu: Jozu is beaten.
See the difference?



> Citing Akainu's feats and then using them to say why 2 virtually featless people can't beat him is fallacious.


Wait, now Marco and Jozu are virtually featless and you want to convince me that virtually featless people beat Akainu? 
And I never said they can't beat him, I said it can go either way.  Read my posts...


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

> According to the manga... We saw what an enraged Marco was able to do to a already severly hurt Akainu with a point black attack. Not much.
> *Marco and Jozu are not on the same level as the admirals concerning their offensive powers.*



They aren't. But how does that mean that their offense is poor? The admirals are not the standard for something that can be considered an "average offense". They're absolute offensive and lethal gods.



> Marco and Akainu had no consistent fight, at least not a shown one. And Marco managed to do absolutely nothing to Akainu as well, even from point black and enraged it wasn't doing much.



How does that disprove my point?



> Again, can you imagine a better opportunity than the one where Akainu had already killed Ace and an enraged Marco had a free shot on him? Why shouldn't he have used his strongest attack or one of them there?



Akainu managed to mitigate his blow with his logia properties which has happened even to Whitebeard. You have absolutely no idea how Akainu would have taken the attack if Marco were to connect with his body. 



> It shows that the admirals can't put Marco down in a shorter amount of time, that doesn't mean that they are not superior to him...



No, it clearly shows he's in the same league as the admirals. Denying such strong portrayal is absurd. What do you think Oda was thinking when he wrote the scene of Marco casually flying in and kicking Aokiji aside like the utmost fodder?



> Jozu coulnd't do shit against Aokiji as well, but if one of them does a mistake it shows their difference.
> Jozu and Marco had a convenient free opening on Aokiji: Nothing happened.
> Aokiji had a convenient free opening on Jozu: Jozu is beaten.
> See the difference?



Luffy attacks Crocodile. Has him lying on the ground for a few seconds. He gets up a little roughed up and laughing. Crocodile attacks Luffy, dehydrates him entirely and defeats him.

Yet, who was the on that ultimately won?



> Wait, now Marco and Jozu are virtually featless and you want to convince me that virtually featless people beat Akainu?



Yes, because _portrayal_ suggests he's on the same level as the admirals and Jozu is not that far below. Honestly, the only thing he did throughout the entire war was plunt admirals aside like footballs and he fought evenly with Kizaru. 

We can definitely infer how strong they are based on their low amount of showings.


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## Slenderman (Nov 9, 2013)

^ Marco kicking Aokiji away like fodder. Yeah right. Remember when Marco looked like a wild dog running around and Onigumo caught his ass? Failing to hurt admirals when Jozu was able to hurt them. Getting embarrassed by Garp who sent him flying like a novice boxer fighting Mike Tyson. Garp shot him km's away. OT: Akainu wins extreme difficulty. Marco with his super duper talons did Jack shit to Akainu. Jozu would probably do better since he was at least able to hurt an admiral.


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## Doma (Nov 9, 2013)

Benn Beckman said:


> Jozus tackle on Aokiji made about as much damage as Garps punch on Marco yet I've yet to see anyone trying to argue that Garp lacks offensive powers



That's not really a fair comparison though. Marco has the ability to regenerate. After seeing Marco regenerate completely from Kizaru's yasakini no magatana or whatever it's called, it's impressive that Garp left any damage with what seems like a basic punch.

Also, I'm not disagreeing that Marco and Jozu would win. I just thought this was a flawed comparison.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

> Marco kicking Aokiji away like fodder.



Yes, that's exactly what he did. Marco kicked Aokiji a great distance away and the latter did absolutely nothing in response. 



> Remember when Marco looked like a wild dog running around and Onigumo caught his ass?



You've yet to tell me why it is so damn detrimental that the strongest Vice Admiral managed to SNEAK UP on Marco. 


> Failing to hurt admirals when Jozu was able to hurt them.



That completely misses the point. 



> Getting embarrassed by Garp who sent him flying like a novice boxer fighting Mike Tyson. Garp shot him km's away.



Because getting blindsided by a marine legend while pre-occupied in mid air and smacked down to the ground with a haki punch yet sustaining virtually no injury is not impressive. Right.....


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## Vengeance (Nov 9, 2013)

I won't reply to the rest anymore, cba sorry.



> They aren't. But how does that mean that their offense is poor?


Where did I say here that their offense is poor? I just said it's not on the level of the admirals...



> They're absolute offensive and lethal gods



Right, same goes for their defense. You are basically argueing for my point.


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## Marcο (Nov 9, 2013)

lol

Marco and Jozu win with mid-high difficulty.


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## Furinji Saiga (Nov 9, 2013)

The Duo take it high difficulty


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 9, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OH WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT ! The bolded part, let me make one thing clear: Kuzan's gap with Jozu is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger than Sakazuki's with WB and most probably Kuzan's with WB, if they were on virtually equal grounds one free shot would do nothing against Jozu except make him spill blood(a lot) and even be dizzy for a certain time making more time to one attack the other, but no, he was frozen by one free shot, and when he got one shot at the Admiral what he did ? Made him just spill blood and just that, Aokiji is way too superior to Jozu, they weren't fighting in equal ground, Akainu fought on equal grounds with WB, Aokiji stomp Jozu .


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## Kid (Nov 9, 2013)

The WB-Commanders are inferior to the Admirals.


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## Halcyon (Nov 9, 2013)

WB commanders take it high diff max.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2013)

> Kuzan's gap with Jozu is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger than Sakazuki's with WB and most probably Kuzan's with WB



No it isn't. They're probably pretty similar actually. It's just the case that you're generalizing their abilites to fit some preconcieved notion about Jozu being far weaker than Kuzan.

When will you people start to comprehend that different fighters have different skills and abilites? That's like me saying that Aokiji is far below Jozu because he couldn't block a slash from Mihawk with his bare body. But obviously, Jozu managed to do that because of his Devil Fruit, which allows him to harden his skin. 

Why would the Aokiji case be _any_ different? Aokiji has an extremely lethal ability that allows him to ignore the conventional durability of ANY fighter, Jozu, similarly to Luffy uses punches in battle. It's clear that ones attacks are going to be much deadlier than the other's. 

Hell, I'll refer to a post I made in this very thread about the matter;



> Luffy attacks Crocodile. Has him lying on the ground for a few seconds. He gets up a little roughed up and laughing. Crocodile attacks Luffy, dehydrates him entirely and defeats him.



By that logic, Luffy was much weaker than Crocodile. But how come he defeated him then? 

And even if you want to throw all logic and common sense out of the window, then you have to apply the same to Sakazuki as well; a magma punch to Edward's chest impeded his rampage for no more than a few seconds, yet an earthquake punch to Sakazuki's chest reduced his 10 days worth of stamina to zero and had him fall down a crevice that spawned right off his fucking chest.



> The WB-Commanders are inferior to the Admirals.



Marco is up there.


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## Vengeance (Nov 9, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> By that logic, Luffy was much weaker than Crocodile. But how come he defeated him then?



We can't really use Luffy here and I don't really get your point.
He lost 3 times iirc and had a massive plot armor. 



> And even if you want to throw all logic and common sense out of the window, then you have to apply the same to Sakazuki as well; a magma punch to Edward's chest impeded his rampage for no more than a few seconds, yet an earthquake punch to Sakazuki's chest reduced his 10 days worth of stamina to zero and had him fall down a crevice that spawned right off his fucking chest.



Because this is  Whitebead we are talking about, and still these attacks from Akainu were mainly responsible for Whitebeard's later death.  It clearly shows how deadly Akainu is. Only because Whitebeard was an absolute monster he could keep going.

Marco on the other hand point black attacked an Akainu that had been down to zero a short time before as you said yourself. Still he didn't achieve much, even with Vista.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 9, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No it isn't. They're probably pretty similar actually. It's just the case that you're generalizing their abilites to fit some preconcieved notion about Jozu being far weaker than Kuzan.
> 
> When will you people start to comprehend that different fighters have different skills and abilites? That's like me saying that Aokiji is far below Jozu because he couldn't block a slash from Mihawk with his bare body. But obviously, Jozu managed to do that because of his Devil Fruit, which allows him to harden his skin.
> 
> ...


There's something called Haki, Donquixote used it to break free from Aokiji's Ice(Please, do not think that I'm saying here that Donquixote > Jozu or Donquixote's Haki > Jozu's Haki, I'm completely aware that Kuzan wasn't being serious at the slightest and if he wanted to Donquixote by now would be dead meat), if Jozu was so much close to Aokiji he would be able to break from the Ice at the very least even if took some time, but no, he was encased in Ice, WB broke by DF but sure he would break by Haki, if Jozu was in the same tier as Aokiji he would've been able to do it, I myself believe that Marco would be able to get out(Without fenix fire) using Haki . To your post's last part that has nothing to do with me: Yep, you're right, Marco is in the same tier as the Admirals, he's just not stronger than any of them .


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## Dunno (Nov 9, 2013)

Click at your own risk:


*Spoiler*: __


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## Slenderman (Nov 9, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Yes, that's exactly what he did. Marco kicked Aokiji a great distance away and the latter did absolutely nothing in response.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Onigumo being the strongest VA is a baseless assumption used by you in order to make Marco look good. Marco actually felt the punch and even though he wasn't hurt Garp bypassed Marco's regen. YNM didn't. You're making up things that have never been true just to try to back up Marco. Marco casually kicked away Aokiji as you like to say. Garp casually punched Marco away. Both of these can work against you and the Onigumo things like I said is complete conjecture used to try to amplify an faulty argument. It's never stated nor implied that he's the strongest. That's just fans making up things that the author has never hinted nor implied. Also OBD Newbie Haki won't help you break out. It's physics. The vibrations caused by WB's fruit was able to shake off the ice. DD had strings that cut of the dense layer of ice without being killed. If Jozu was able to give Aokiji a bloody lip with haki it doesn't make sense for the ice part. Having haki would give you hardening. It wouldn't break you out of the ice. Also Jozu got deep freezed since Aokiji touched him. DD got a generic freeze from a non bloodlusted Aokiji.


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## Teach (Nov 9, 2013)

Akainu beats them both at the same time. They don't have the firepower to take Akainu down, the same Akainu that took epicenter of Whitebeards strongest quake to the rib and still walked afterwards, and not only did he walk, he was still fighting and beating WB commanders.


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## Lawliet (Nov 9, 2013)

I'm going with this ^
If two commanders are enough to take down one of the WG's strongest force, then the WG are fucked.


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## Captain Altintop (Nov 9, 2013)

jMarco and Jozu win mid-high diff. Akainu is chanceless.

Akainu could maybe draw / tie with Marco + Vista.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm going with this ^
> If two commanders are enough to take down one of the WG's strongest force, then the WG are fucked.



How does that even make sense?


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

> Onigumo being the strongest VA is a baseless assumption used by you in order to make Marco look good.



No it isn't. It's based on the fact that Oda put explicit emphasis on him out of all the Vice Admirals and he is the one who has the best showings out of all. Even if you want to argue that he isn't the strongest, he's_ one of_ the strongest VA's. 



> Marco actually felt the punch and even though he wasn't hurt Garp bypassed Marco's regen. YNM didn't.



Uhm, okay?



> You're making up things that have never been true just to try to back up Marco.



I never make things up. 



> Marco casually kicked away Aokiji as you like to say. Garp casually punched Marco away. Both of these can work against you



Indeed, both of those scenes mean something.


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## Giocatser (Nov 10, 2013)

Akainu win mid-high/high diff. If you want to make a memory..



Ace was the 2nd division commander of the Whitebeard Pirates. How long he could withstand the Sakazuki's attack?


By the way, Marco and Vista.. Both tried to stop him at Marineford..:





And you have to remind how Blackbeard pirates escaped from him..:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjZbL0NKKUc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Canute87 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No it isn't. It's based on the fact that Oda put explicit emphasis on him out of all the *Vice Admirals and he is the one who has the best showings out of all. *



Using Soru to cuff a guy who was focused of regenerating himself qualifies Onigumo for best showing?



> Even if you want to argue that he isn't the strongest, he's_ one of_ the strongest VA's.
> .



Vice admirals is such a broad spectrum of levels that barely has any merit at all.

I remember when people thought he would have been admiral.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

> Using Soru to cuff a guy who was focused of regenerating himself qualifies Onigumo for best showing?



Well, considering the best feat the others have is getting owned by someone............ :ignoramus

ahahahah, the One Piece anime is terrible as fuck


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## Mihawk (Nov 10, 2013)

Hmm I think that the fact onigumo managed to cuff Marco, is what sets him apart from his colleagues. 

Until then, we could only assume that he was one of the strongest, as he was one of the Buster 5  and also charged with escorting Ace, while Momonga similarly escorted Hancock, though Ace was a greater responsibility at the time. 

However, it was the cuffing of Marco and leading the marines under Absolute Justice after Akainu started to talk bloodcurdling, which sealed the deal for me.

For example, if Oda chose to let Momonga be the one to cuff Marco instead, in addition to his already decent portrayal and screen time, most would think Momonga is indisputably the strongest.


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## Canute87 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Well, considering the best feat the others have is getting owned by someone............ :ignoramus



Lucky for Onigumo he didn't have a direct confrontation with anybody.


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## Canute87 (Nov 10, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Hmm I think that the fact onigumo managed to cuff Marco, is what sets him apart from his colleagues.



That's like saying if lionel messi goes through all the defense and goalkeeper and the ball stops short of the goal line the one who scores the goal gets all the credit.

Onigumo was just "there".  Nothing more to take from that.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

Canute87 said:


> Lucky for Onigumo he didn't have a direct confrontation with anybody.



And you think that's a coincidence? :ignoramus

Honestly though, Onigumo's feat tends to be absolutely fucking overrated. People act like it's somehow detrimental to Marco that it happened. 

I'd consider it pretty fucking sad if the next best thing to the admirals in the marines couldn't sneak up on an a lasered, distracted, multitasking top tier without getting instantly owned.


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## Lmao (Nov 10, 2013)

I was expecting to see Akainu losing but mid diff?


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## Mihawk (Nov 10, 2013)

Canute87 said:


> That's like saying if lionel messi goes through all the defense and goalkeeper and the ball stops short of the goal line the one who scores the goal gets all the credit.
> 
> Onigumo was just "there".  Nothing more to take from that.



Well he was the one Kizaru trusted with the task and to collab with.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

Lmao said:


> I was expecting to see Akainu losing but mid diff?



Yeah, it's seems outrageous but people always understate the ridiculous advantage 2vs1 brings

I mean, Kuzan couldn't even react to Jozu when he had his hands full with Whitebeard

Marco is no Whitebeard of course, but you get the point

Honestly, what is Akainu going to do to them? He's fighting two people who are virtually immune to his attacks at once. If he goes for Marco, Jozu will most likely smack him in the face. If he despite that gets a hit in, it's canonically not doing anything to Marco. The same goes for vice-versa. That's not even taking the fact that the two should have perfect teamwork

And simply the fact that Akainu as a fighter of an Emperors caliber is not beating the right and left hand of the strongest Emperor. On paper, it should be no different from pitting Lufy against Zoro and Sanji

He's simply outmatched


----------



## Harard (Nov 10, 2013)

A better question would be Akainu vs Marco and Vista. Akainu would still lose, but at least it would be a fair fight.


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## Lmao (Nov 10, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> I mean, Kuzan couldn't even react to Jozu when he had his hands full with Whitebeard


Kuzan didn't see Jozu coming, we don't know how he would have reacted (if at all) had he seen him coming.



Sakazuki said:


> Honestly, what is Akainu going to do to them?


Dude, Whitebeard witnessed Akainu murdering Ace - got behind him to land a vicious blow and next thing he knows half his face is missing. What is Akainu going to do to them? Same thing first chance he gets and considering how much he can take and keep going he'll eventually get a chance. On the other hand what do Marco/Jozu have that can put Akainu down?



Sakazuki said:


> On paper, it should be no different from pitting Lufy against Zoro and Sanji


Except the gap is not as small as you think, mind you this is coming from someone who _dislikes _Akainu but there are some flat out *bad *showings for Marco, like him _and _Vista combined failing to even hit Akainu's real body. Since you mentioned Luffy/Zoro/Sanji what do you think would happen if Zoro/Sanji attacked Luffy in the same manner? I think it'd look pretty bad.

Usually that's what happens when someone on your level gets a hit in while you're not paying attention, you get fucked up. It's not just Marco, Jozu landed a hit on Kuzan who was focused on Whitebeard and only managed to give him a bloody lip.

Then there's  _AFTER_ having fought Whitebeard. Now, of course both sides were injured and Akainu had backup but let's be honest other than fodder no character of importance is shown assisting the Admiral so unless proven otherwise it was Akainu doing all the heavy lifting.


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## Vengeance (Nov 10, 2013)

It even says "over there it's Akainu and the captains" on the next page so he should indeed be the one to do the main work.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

> Dude, Whitebeard witnessed Akainu murdering Ace - got behind him to land a vicious blow and next thing he knows half his face is missing. What is Akainu going to do to them? Same thing first chance he gets and considering how much he can take and keep going he'll eventually get a chance. On the other hand what do Marco/Jozu have that can put Akainu down?



So he's going to blow off their faces how? He punched Marco straight into the face with a magma punch and did absolutely nothing to him. Jozu's diamond can most likely withstand his magma too.

You're just failing to comprehend the point. It doesn't matter that he's a decent bit above them individually, a notion that I agree with, because he's fighting against the 2 of them_ at once_. He is fighting 2 people *who he cannot injure unless he gives them his undivided attention* simultaneously. There is absolutely no way he's going to land hits on either of them without leaving himself completely exposed. He tries to go for Marco, Jozu punches him in the gut; he tries to defend himself from Jozu's punch, Marco slashes him in the neck. The amount of multitasking and power required to somehow injure both of them badly while somehow evading getting hit is absolutely ridiculous. It will take a huge amount of time, but neither will be in any danger of being badly injured; hence mid difficulty.

This is no different from putting 2 admirals against Whitebeard. I think that's a good comparison as opposed to the one I made previously. 



> Except the gap is not as small as you think, mind you this is coming from someone who dislikes Akainu but there are some flat out bad showings for Marco, like him and Vista combined failing to even hit Akainu's real body. Since you mentioned Luffy/Zoro/Sanji what do you think would happen if Zoro/Sanji attacked Luffy in the same manner? I think it'd look pretty bad.



I agree that Zoro and Sanji are closer to Luffy than Marco and Jozu are to Akainu, that was just a vague comparison; but your point is moot. Whitebeard sneaked up on Borsalino and cleaved him in two, yet failed to harm him in any significant way. Kuzan managed to evade a blow from Whitebeard who gave him his undivided attention. 

We have absolutely no idea how top class level logias interact with haki usage, but it definitely isn't something consistent. 

The scene against Akainu made Marco look bad; that's true. But that's not his only showing. He engaged admirals throughout the entire war and never once lost the edge; even when letting his guard down.

He's definitely to Akainu what Sanji is to Luffy, no doubt.



> Then there's Akainu taking on Marco, Vista and 8 other Commanders AFTER having fought Whitebeard. Now, of course both sides were injured and Akainu had backup but let's be honest *other than fodder no character of importance* is shown assisting the Admiral so unless proven otherwise it was Akainu doing all the heavy lifting.





Bottom right panel.

The only thing we know about the back-up is that it was powerful enough to push all the commanders away from Akainu; either that or they didn't exactly focus on Akainu. Those options are the only ones viable because Akainu was deliberately shown on multiple occassions and he was never dealing with the commanders except for when he defeated Curiel; and no other commanders were in vicinity.

As for your last point, the same can be said about Marco. It sure does sound impressive that Akainu fought this many people, unless you consider the fact that only 2 out of the entire bunch have displayed the ABILITY TO HURT HIM.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No it isn't. It's based on the fact that Oda put explicit emphasis on him out of all the Vice Admirals and he is the one who has the best showings out of all. Even if you want to argue that he isn't the strongest, he's_ one of_ the strongest VA's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He's one of the only VA's that has show anything. He is one of the strongest imo but that's just speculation. We haven't even seen Doberman. For all we know John Giant could be the strongest but let's agree to disagree because were just using speculation.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm going with this ^
> If two commanders are enough to take down one of the WG's strongest force, then the WG are fucked.



And this makes sense how? In the war the WB pirates were out matched. The strongest Yonkou crew failed to beat the WG.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> Akainu win mid-high/high diff. If you want to make a memory..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm AK's right hand man and even I don't say mid-high diff. That's nonsense.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> I'm AK's right hand man and even I don't say mid-high diff. That's nonsense.



           .


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> And this makes sense how? In the war the WB pirates were out matched. The strongest Yonkou crew failed to beat the WG.



They were doing just fine before Whitebeard got the heart attack which lead to the subsequent defeat of his top men.

Or in other words, fucking plot.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

^ The raw amount of VA's hurt them. Aokiji and Brosalino were fine the whole war. Even with Luffy freeing Ace they still lost. They all had to run before Akainu stated fisting people. They abandoned Curiel and let him get sacrificed.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

> ^ The raw amount of VA's hurt them



As far as I recall, the Vice Admirals were evenly matched by the New World captains. I could be wrong though. 



> Aokiji and Brosalino were fine the whole war.



As was Marco really.....and I doubt Jozu and Whitebeard would have been defeated either if not for the distraction/heart attack. 



> They abandoned Curiel and let him get sacrificed.



Nah man, Curiel was at the funeral only covered in bandages.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

^ They were evenly matched but it was only a teaser. Well eventually if Jozu tries to punch him again if Aokiji connects it's done.


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## Canute87 (Nov 10, 2013)

Even though people use the sanji zoro against luffy card people should know understand two things.

Sanji and Zoro actually have attacks comparable to luffy.  Not the case with Marco and Josu to WB.

And Sanji and Zoro even by themselves are in close proximity to luffy's strength,  Marco and Josu with Whitebeard?  Not so much.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 10, 2013)

I said that Akainu loses this Extreme Difficulty but I'm changing my opinion to the other side, Akainu wins this Highest End High Difficulty . He's got too much durablity to die here .


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## Extravlad (Nov 10, 2013)

Marco and Jozu wins without a doubt.

They can beats everyone alive in the OPVERSE.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

Canute87 said:


> Even though people use the sanji zoro against luffy card people should know understand two things.
> 
> Sanji and Zoro actually have attacks comparable to luffy.  Not the case with Marco and Josu to WB.
> 
> And Sanji and Zoro even by themselves are in close proximity to luffy's strength,  Marco and Josu with Whitebeard?  Not so much.



Nobody really compared them to Whitebeard, but to Akainu.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 10, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Marco and Jozu wins without a doubt.
> 
> They can beats everyone alive in the OPVERSE.



Glad you said alive but still ... Sakazuki has too great durability to lose here, what are they going to do ? Kick and Brillant Punk him until he falls unconsciousness ? Those attacks pack a lot of power but it's nothing compared to the beatdown Akainu took and Akainu's firepower is greater than Marco's and Jozu's .


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> .



Honestly people need to read the manga or read the manga and the anime. Akainu never in the manga was standing  in front of the whole crew.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Marco and Jozu wins without a doubt.
> 
> They can beats everyone alive in the OPVERSE.



Arguably Shank's, Akainu, and Aokiji imo. Glad you said alive.


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## Lmao (Nov 10, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He punched Marco straight into the face with a magma punch and did absolutely nothing to him.


If you're talking about  then just no.  without losing his arm, why? Those were attacks aimed at Luffy.



Sakazuki said:


> You're just failing to comprehend the point. It doesn't matter that he's a decent bit above them individually, a notion that I agree with, because he's fighting against the 2 of them_ at once_. He is fighting 2 people *who he cannot injure unless he gives them his undivided attention* simultaneously. There is absolutely no way he's going to land hits on either of them without leaving himself completely exposed.


I'm well aware of the difference between a 2v1 and a 1v1 fight, you are the one missing the point. That being, Akainu _can _afford to leave himself exposed for the exact reason he can tank massive damage while the Commanders simply don't have enough firepower to put him down. Again, Jozu landing a hit on an off-guard Kuzan only managed to give him a bloody lip.

This is no mid diff fight by any means.



Sakazuki said:


> The only thing we know about the back-up is that it was powerful enough to push all the commanders away from Akainu; either that or they didn't exactly focus on Akainu. Those options are the only ones viable because *Akainu was deliberately shown on multiple occassions* and he was never dealing with the commanders except for when he defeated Curiel; and no other commanders were in vicinity.


What multiple occasions? He's shown on the spread against the Commanders on  then again on  of the next chapter having defeated Curiel, with Marco looking troubled in-between. Even after Shanks arrives  if you pay attention it's still the same Commanders in a close formation near a battleship, as it was when Akainu confronted them.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

> If you're talking about this then just no. Jinbe also stopped Akainu's magma without losing his arm, why? Those were attacks aimed at Luffy.



Good job conveniently ignoring how the attack completely burned Jimbe's arm. 

So what if they were attacks aimed at Luffy? Magma is magma. Akainu putting more strength behind his punch is not going to make it more lethal. 

Besides, why would Akainu give Luffy a love tap in the first place? He was absolutely hellbent in killing the brothers and already had multiple strong people get into his way, thinking the attack he used was anything but a powerful one is stupid. 



> I'm well aware of the difference between a 2v1 and a 1v1 fight, you are the one missing the point. That being, Akainu can afford to leave himself exposed for the exact reason he can tank massive damage while the Commanders simply don't have enough firepower to put him down. Again, Jozu landing a hit on an off-guard Kuzan only managed to give him a bloody lip.



He can't leave himself exposed. That's stupid. Kuzan mitigating Jozu's blow with his logia properties bears absolutely no credence here. It's actually an extremely exaggerated feat. The first few blows Luffy dealt to Lucci did absolutely nothing to the latter, yet he was down within chapters. Hell, Marco took Garp's blow just as good as Kuzan did Jozu's. By that logic Marco can casually tank everything Garp dishes out for ages. 

But that is obviously not the case. Marco _and_ Jozu pounding at him at once will have him down long before Akainu deals any serious damage to them, and this is not even considering Marco's talons. There's absolutely no reason to believe Akainu's haki will overshadow Marco's every single time - what if Marco connects with his human body and cleaves his neck in two. Will he tank that?



> *What multiple occasions?* He's shown on the spread against the Commanders on pg 15 ch578 then again on pg 8 of the next chapter having defeated Curiel, with Marco looking troubled in-between. Even after Shanks arrives when they're weeping if you pay attention it's still the same Commanders in a close formation near a battleship, as it was when Akainu confronted them.





He's seen with an army behind him not fighting the commanders.



He looks like he's about to do fodder sweep.


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## Tiger (Nov 10, 2013)

Marco didn't "take" anything from Garp. He received a punch that slammed him into the ground and knocked him out of his zoan form.

Kuzan, on the other hand, kept his DF fully intact and shattered into pieces of ice with no more than a shallow cut on his face. Barely more damage dealt to him than when Robin tried to break his back during their meeting pre-skip.

How can people read the same manga and have such wildly different interpretations of events?

People act like Marco is a logia around here, it's fucking bananas. You let the off-hand comment of the Gorusei formulate a fictitious level of power we never actually witnessed from the man. It's just as bad as the people who think he can't hurt anyone with his claws. Both sides hurt his character by either deflating or inflating him to what he never was.

Marco was nowhere _near_ Whitebeard. Marco could stand up to Kizaru, _for a bit_. He then couldn't do fuck-all to Akainu, even with a surprise attack.

He is not as close to the Admirals as some of you pretend he is. Nor is Jozu. The Whitebeard Pirates, as a whole, even without Whitebeard are still an incredibly powerful force in the New World - but a Yonko-level crew they no longer can claim to be, because not one of them is strong enough to reach that height.

If Garp had followed Marco to the ground immediately to follow-up with his attacks, we wouldn't even be talking about this right now, because Marco would be a dead man. Before the skip, my estimation was that Marco was the top of the high-tier category, not quite top-tier, and I still see no argument good enough to change that opinion.


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## Giocatser (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Honestly people need to read the manga or read the manga and the anime. Akainu never in the manga was standing  in front of the whole crew.





Chapter 578.. Yeah.. I read the manga. There is a huge gap between Akainu's level and Marco&Jozu's level. Is my opinion. 



Sakazuki said:


> Yeah, it's seems outrageous but people always understate the ridiculous advantage 2vs1 brings
> 
> I mean, Kuzan couldn't even react to Jozu when he had his hands full with Whitebeard
> 
> ...



According with your reasoning "advantage 2vs1".. I don't understand why Aokiji was able to defeat Luffy-Zoro-Sanji before Water 7 saga. I don't understand how Kizaru was able to defeat the Supernovas. I don't understand how Ozu was able to defeat the Straw Hats Pirates (except Luffy). I don't understand how Magellan was able to defeat the Blackbeard Pirates.. Etc, etc, etc..


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## Canute87 (Nov 10, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> Chapter 578.. Yeah.. I read the manga. There is a huge gap between Akainu's level and Marco&Jozu's level. Is my opinion.
> ..



You realize that they were only like two people out of that group that stood any chance of hurting Akainu much less fighting.


Akainu being a logia and all


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## Tiger (Nov 10, 2013)

Not many people in that picture I'd expect don't have haki, but even with haki it doesn't mean you can hurt a logia.

Marco and Vista proved that when they failed miserably to do anything besides slow down Akainu with a surprise attack.

How exactly do they beat Akainu here?

Add Vista to this fight.

If they can't hurt his real body...what the hell do you expect them to accomplish just because it's a 2 on 1? Or a 3 on 1?


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

> Marco didn't "take" anything from Garp. He received a punch that slammed him into the ground and knocked him out of his zoan form.



Nobody is saying that Marco "took" the punch.

Marco was slammed into the ground and emerged with a tiny scratch on his face. By the obtuse logic some people use however, Marco could take those punches forever, because they didn't do heavy damage. But it's clear that another few of those would've fucked him up to no avail. 

Why would Kuzan's case by any different? Nobody is saying he'd get killed in a few punches but when people act like the dude could sustain a hundred of those and only have a bleeding fucking lip - then yeah, that's an absolutely retarded claim to make and I sincerely hope you share that point of view.



> Marco was nowhere near Whitebeard. Marco could stand up to Kizaru, for a bit. He then couldn't do fuck-all to Akainu, even with a surprise attack.
> 
> He is not as close to the Admirals as some of you pretend he is



Nobody was "near" Whitebeard. When the author had the guy devastate the strongest admiral in a fatal condition with 2 punches, it becomes pretty fucking apparent that the man was in a league of his own.

But nobody is saying Marco is _near_ Whitebeard. But he damn is admiral level.

Please don't understate Marco's feat against Kizaru to make your points. If Oda truly wanted us to believe that Kizaru was significantly stronger, he easily could have done so - but he did the exact opposite.  They were dead even from beginning to end - when outside interference is required for him to go down, it becomes pretty obvious that he's playing at that level.

Marco taking on the admirals left and right in the war and Akainu sustaing little injuries from Marco's attack both mean something - the former that Marco is in the same general league as the admirals, the latter meaning that despite that, he's weaker than Akainu by a significant amount. 



> According with your reasoning "advantage 2vs1".. I don't understand why Aokiji was able to defeat Luffy-Zoro-Sanji before Water 7 saga. I don't understand how Kizaru was able to defeat the Supernovas. I don't understand how Ozu was able to defeat the Straw Hats Pirates (except Luffy). I don't understand how Magellan was able to defeat the Blackbeard Pirates.. Etc, etc, etc..



Applying that advantage to fodder is not going to do a lot. 

I think Marco and Jozu are a lot closer to the admirals than you do so that gives them a huge advantage - if you don't share the same opinion, I don't really care.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> Chapter 578.. Yeah.. I read the manga. There is a huge gap between Akainu's level and Marco&Jozu's level. Is my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> According with your reasoning "advantage 2vs1".. I don't understand why Aokiji was able to defeat Luffy-Zoro-Sanji before Water 7 saga. I don't understand how Kizaru was able to defeat the Supernovas. I don't understand how Ozu was able to defeat the Straw Hats Pirates (except Luffy). I don't understand how Magellan was able to defeat the Blackbeard Pirates.. Etc, etc, etc..



I concede the point but still if their was a huge gap Marco wouldn't have been able to block his attack. The gap is big but not mid-high diff. Like said me a major supporter of the admirals doesn't delude myself with such nonsense.


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## Tiger (Nov 10, 2013)

I responded to your post, where you quite literally said "Marco took the punch".

And he didn't just get a scratch, he was knocked out of his Phoenix form. Do you not understand what that means?

I'm not underestimating anything. You don't have to be an Admiral to fight an Admiral. It's not as if he ever had the upper-hand. Nor can his attacks even harm Akainu - clearly.

He's not Admiral-level.

Kuzan and Kizaru were never in danger in their fights, and Marco/Vista were unable to even hit Akainu.

Kuzan even went straight against Whitebeard and sustained no injury, whatsoever.

Marco and Jozu are not Admiral-level just because they don't get killed right away when fighting one, otherwise I could argue that Kuzan is Whitebeard-level, because he traded attacks with him and didn't get hurt. Crocodile is on Mihawk's level, because he clashed with him and was no worse for wear. The same people who think Vista is on Mihawk's level simply because he's not fucking dead right now? Knobs.


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## Naisutime (Nov 10, 2013)

Going with Akainu. Marco and Vista couldn't scratch him and I sincerely doubt switching Vista with Jozu would make the outcome any different. Furthermore, Akainu has the stamina to fight for 10 days...He's eventually gonna get through their imba defenses.


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## Giocatser (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> I concede the point but still if their was a huge gap Marco wouldn't have been able to block his attack. The gap is big but not mid-high diff. Like said me a major supporter of the admirals doesn't delude myself with such nonsense.



Jinbe was able to block his attack too, and we all know how Jinbe ends.. If we shared all the views, forums would have no sense.. Free thinking!


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## Canute87 (Nov 10, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> Jinbe was able to block his attack too, and we all know how Jinbe ends.. If we shared all the views, forums would have no sense.. Free thinking!



Well...Jinbei actually blocked an attack aimed for Luffy..after that you saw Akainu turned up the heat.  Well Jinbei's fish-fu was pretty damn useless against the man.


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## Giocatser (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> I concede the point but still if their was a huge gap Marco wouldn't have been able to block his attack. The gap is big but not mid-high diff. Like said me a major supporter of the admirals doesn't delude myself with such nonsense.



By the way.. Whitebeard wasn't able to block Akainu's attack. Maybe... Are you suggesting that Jinbe or Marco are stronger than Whietebeard because they were able to block Akainu's attack and Whitebeard didn't?


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## RF (Nov 10, 2013)

> I responded to your post, where you quite literally said "Marco took the punch".



I meant that in a different context, that much is clear. But this is just pointless quibble over semantics anyway.



> And he didn't just get a scratch, he was knocked out of his Phoenix form. Do you not understand what that means?



Please. Don't. You know exactly how many people in this section share this view - you, and nobody else, aside from perhaps Slenderman who just likes trolling. The point is Marco received very negligible, true, permanent damage against Garp. He was fighting Kizaru immediately afterwards for God's sake. 



> I'm not underestimating anything. You don't have to be an Admiral to fight an Admiral. It's not as if he ever had the upper-hand



Yes, you are hand wiping at portrayal as if it was nothing and looking at feats only. That's absolutely fallacious when it comes to the war arc. 

Oda couldn't have everyone flash their abilites out to the maximum, and his only way to show us how these characters compare to one another is during these brief, short alternications.

Jozu is not admiral level. All it required was a single lapse of concentration and he was dispatched with ease - albeit Aokiji was a good match-up, the picture being painted was clear.

Marco is the exact opposite is what I'm trying to tell you. He casually exchanged attacks with Kizaru at the beginning of the war which resulted in a draw and both were mocking each other in a similar manner. We then later on see how Kizaru can not do a single thing to Marco and was forced to enlist outside help so he could take him down. Kizaru did never, throughout their entire skirmish display an ounce of superiority. If Oda was intending to make us think Kizaru is superior - then he did a horrible job at doing so.

These scenes quite clearly suggest Marco is at the level of the admirals, which is only further bolstered by his showing against Kuzan. Yes, the scene against Akainu was detrimental, but Akainu's superiority is just that - Akainu's, and while we can infer that he's below the other admirals as well, it is by no significant amount.



> Nor can his attacks even harm Akainu - clearly.



Based on what? Marco just got rid of the seastone and he clearly wasn't in the best condition of his life - he attacked Akainu who managed to avoid getting damaged, yet was still irritated he had to face haki users which clearly wouldn't be the case if Marco couldn't hurt him. The next moment, Marco stops his attempt at taking Luffy's life by himself. So it looks like you're really just reading into this scene way too much and disregarding Marco's other showings.



> otherwise I could argue that Kuzan is Whitebeard-level



If Whitebeard was not the World's Strongest Man and didn't rape Aokiji's equal at his death bed - yeah, you could fucking argue that he's Whitebeard level. The big picture is what matters, and it is a fact that Marco never displayed inferiority to the admirals whenever he engaged them.


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## Canute87 (Nov 10, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Based on what? Marco just got rid of the seastone and he clearly wasn't in the best condition of his life - he attacked Akainu who managed to avoid getting damaged, yet was still irritated he had to face haki users which clearly wouldn't be the case if Marco couldn't hurt him. The next moment, Marco stops his attempt at taking Luffy's life by himself. So it looks like you're really just reading into this scene way too much and disregarding Marco's other showings.
> .



Vista was there too.  Need to address his failure as well.


----------



## Kid (Nov 10, 2013)

Also noteworthy is that the attacks from Marco and Vista which '' tickled '' Akainu , where *after *Akainu fought against fucking whitebeard who hit him with two monster shots.

Akainu is a fucking beast and the commanders just aren't in his league.

Doesn't mean that they aren't strong or something.


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## Tiger (Nov 10, 2013)

Anyone who knows how to read understands there's a very simple order of events:

1. Marco is in Phoenix form, flying through the air
2. Garp surprise-punches him downward
3. Marco hits the ground, and is no longer in Phoenix form.

Only a fucking wanker doesn't understand that the force of Garp's punch knocked Marco out of his regenerative zoan. There is no feasible explanation for why else he would no longer be a fucking Phoenix.

And it literally does not fucking matter how many other people are smart enough and not dick-riding Marco too much to understand how to read the goddamn manga.

Straight-up, prove Marco can even _hurt_ Akainu or stop posting here. By scans, the only ones you can provide would be him being completely ineffectual against Akainu.

So until that changes, the only reason people would honestly post here saying Marco and Jozu win are because they a) don't know how to read, b) don't remember or care what happens in the manga, and go by tiers only, or c) are pretending that's not how it happened, and don't want to believe their precious, over-rated characters aren't Admiral level, even when they team up.

Basically, you can add as many high-tier characters you want to this fight - if their attacks can't bypass Akainu's logia intangibility, it won't make a fucking difference.


----------



## Teach (Nov 10, 2013)

It doesn't matter whether they get past his intangibility or not. They can't hurt Akainu, intangibility or not Akainu blows through them.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Nov 10, 2013)

How can Akainu bypass Jozu's diamond defense, by the way?


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## Teach (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> How can Akainu bypass Jozu's diamond defense, by the way?



He uses his magma to burn or melt his face.


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## Tiger (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> How can Akainu bypass Jozu's diamond defense, by the way?



If he's encased in magma, he's still going to die...it doesn't have break through his defense to cook him alive.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> How can Akainu bypass Jozu's diamond defense, by the way?



He doesn't quite literally have to melt him for him to defeat him. Roasting him to a crisp, by pouring hot magma onto his body will also do the trick. And then there's the fact with his Dai Funka he can just simply punch Jozu out of the way, even if the heat doesn't affect him, the force of the blow would. 


As for this topic, normally I would post at tl;dr on it but I'm sure everyone already knows my views and I CBA. 

Problem really is that Marco and Jozu don't have the combined firepower to take out Sakazuki. It's widely accepted that Marco is very poor offensively and whilst Jozu has a decent arsenal, his brilliant punks are nothing compared to a Whitebeard quake, two of which Sakazuki was able to survie from at close range and continue fighting.

The only way they could win is if they outlast Sakazuki in terms of endurance, however with Sakazuki managing to last ten days against Kuzan who's a much superior and dangerous foe that's also unlikely.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> Jinbe was able to block his attack too, and we all know how Jinbe ends.. If we shared all the views, forums would have no sense.. Free thinking!



The difference is that one was not injured after that and the other one was. Great job on not reading the panel properly.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> By the way.. Whitebeard wasn't able to block Akainu's attack. Maybe... Are you suggesting that Jinbe or Marco are stronger than Whietebeard because they were able to block Akainu's attack and Whitebeard didn't?



WB was reckless and his COA was bad the entire war. Hence he needed to be bloodlusted to hurt them. Blocking an attack doesn't mean that you're stronger then them. Marco just has better defence then WB. WB still won the fight. Something else you didn't add in. WB wasn't thinking he was a wild dog going mad. Also Sakazuki i'm not trolling for believing that Marco isn't as great as many like to suggest.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 10, 2013)

Also after quickly reading the wiki article on it, I've just found out that Diamond is a very strong thermal conductor, five times higher than copper. That makes things even worse for the duo.

Jozu will be turning into charcoal very quickly then.


----------



## Doma (Nov 10, 2013)

Canute87 said:


> Well...Jinbei actually blocked an attack aimed for Luffy..after that you saw Akainu turned up the heat.  Well Jinbei's fish-fu was pretty damn useless against the man.



The punch Marco blocked was also aimed for Luffy.



Slenderman said:


> The difference is that one was not injured after that and the other one was. Great job on not reading the panel properly.



So you're just gonna ignore the fact that Marco can heal himself? Marco covered his arms in blue flames to block it. They have no offensive capabilities, so he must have done it because he thought he'd get burned despite it being a weaker attack.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

^ Marco used haki you're over complicating things. what makes it a weaker attack. You have no proof. This is just speculation as to how hard he punched. He wanted to kill Luffy. Everything else is your speculation.


----------



## Doma (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> ^ Marco used haki you're over complicating things. what makes it a weaker attack. You have no proof. This is just speculation as to how hard he punched. He wanted to kill Luffy. Everything else is your speculation.



Why did were there flames then? There's no other use to his flames than to heal himself.





The proof is right here. The attack he threw at Ace was clearly much stronger than the punch he aimed at Luffy. If Ace had the power to heal himself, he'd have been just fine too.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Nov 10, 2013)

Marco and Jozu mid difficulty


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

@ Doma I say COA had play in that too but whatever. The second part is conjecture. What proof do you have that it was stronger? No he wouldn't that's more conjecture. The magma didn't pass into him like what happened with YNM. He used COA to block the attack. You have no proof which attack is stronger. It was never shown in the manga.


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## Doma (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> @ Doma I say COA had play in that too but whatever. The second part is conjecture. What proof do you have that it was stronger? No he wouldn't that's more conjecture. The magma didn't pass into him like what happened with YNM. He used COA to block the attack. You have no proof which attack is stronger. It was never shown in the manga.



What more proof do I need? It's pretty damn clear which attack was stronger. 

You don't think Ace would have been able to heal a burnt arm? 

It didn't pass into him because it was a weak attack. Besides, I said it'd burn him not turn his hand into a stump.

Again, the proof is right there in the manga. It doesn't even make sense for it not to have been a stronger attack. We know logias burn energy producing their element. He's not gonna make all that magma unless it  was necessary.


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## Slenderman (Nov 10, 2013)

^ I never said a burnt arm. So Garp's punch which sent him flying was a weak attack because it didn't go through him? That logic makes zero sense. It honestly doesn't matter how much magma is in it. It's how much power is in it. Your argument is extremely fallacious.


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## Doma (Nov 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> ^ I never said a burnt arm. So Garp's punch which sent him flying was a weak attack because it didn't go through him? That logic makes zero sense. It honestly doesn't matter how much magma is in it. It's how much power is in it. Your argument is extremely fallacious.



Oh, I see. You were saying it's conjecture Marco has another use for his flames. Maybe he does, but they don't help him offensively.

This is a terrible comparison. Akainu's magma is what allows him to burn holes into people. Garp doesn't have that power.

Explain to me exactly how it doesn't make sense. It does matter how much magma is in it. Oda's not always gonna shout out how much power they're using. If something is visually impressive, it's safe to assume it's stronger unless we have reason to believe otherwise. By your logic we have no proof Yasakani no Magatama is stronger than Kizaru's generic finger lasers.


----------



## RF (Nov 11, 2013)

Law said:


> Anyone who knows how to read understands there's a very simple order of events:
> 
> 1. Marco is in Phoenix form, flying through the air
> 2. Garp surprise-punches him downward
> ...



Yes, there is a very simple order of events:

1. Marco is in Phoenix form, flying through the air
2. Garp surprise-punches him downward
3. Marco hits the ground and leaves his Phoenix form manually because there's no need to maintain it, *hence why both of his arms were still engulfed in flames*.

What's worse is that you won't even admit that you're wrong but claim that everyone in this section aside from yourself "can't read the manga".




> Straight-up, prove Marco can even _hurt_ Akainu or stop posting here. By scans, the only ones you can provide would be him being completely ineffectual against Akainu.
> 
> So until that changes, the only reason people would honestly post here saying Marco and Jozu win are because they a) don't know how to read, b) don't remember or care what happens in the manga, and go by tiers only, or c) are pretending that's not how it happened, and don't want to believe their precious, over-rated characters aren't Admiral level, even when they team up.
> 
> Basically, you can add as many high-tier characters you want to this fight - if their attacks can't bypass Akainu's logia intangibility, it won't make a fucking difference.



Holy fucking shit.

What you're arguing here is insanity. It's like me asking proof as to why Whitebeard would be able to hit Kuzan and Borsalino because he failed to do so once.

Or even better, you provide evidence of how Akainu hurts Marco, because the one time he tried, he failed brilliantly at inflicting any sort of damage whatsoever. It was virtually Akainu vs Marco (and Vista) with the roles reversed.

So until further notice, no participant in this match can be hurt, and Marco and Jozu win via outlasting him, right ....?

No. Akainu can hurt Marco and Marco can hurt Akainu. Anything else doesn't even make a _lick _of sense. Why would Akainu be irritated that he has to fight Marco if he couldn't even _hurt_ him? Stark making some sense, please.

This is arguably the worst cop-out I've ever seen. You can't disprove my points about Marco being at the level of the admirals so you resort to treating brief circumstanical alternications as they were set in stone manga facts. Good grief. Once you stop talking out of your asshole and start being objective, I might as well take you seriously. Until then....



> no participant in this match can be hurt, and Marco and Jozu win via outlasting him


----------



## Giocatser (Nov 11, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> WB was reckless and his COA was bad the entire war. Hence he needed to be bloodlusted to hurt them. Blocking an attack doesn't mean that you're stronger then them. Marco just has better defence then WB. WB still won the fight. Something else you didn't add in. WB wasn't thinking he was a wild dog going mad. Also Sakazuki i'm not trolling for believing that Marco isn't as great as many like to suggest.



I was just kidding about Whitebeard! XD 




Slenderman said:


> I concede the point but still if their was a huge gap Marco wouldn't have been able to block his attack. The gap is big but not mid-high diff. Like said me a major supporter of the admirals doesn't delude myself with such nonsense.





Slenderman said:


> The difference is that one was not injured after that and the other one was. Great job on not reading the panel properly.



I read the panel properly.. 

It was not me the one who was speculating about Marco's power by the fact of blocking Akainu's attack. It was you, that's why I mentioned Jinbe's example. Anyway, Marco is able to regenerate from his wounds but that doesn't make him invecible neither puts him near from Admiral level.

It is only a matter of time.. Akainu would destroy Marco with a deadly blow sooner or later. Marco can't heal himself if he is unconscious or if Akainu breaks his neck with one of his letal blows. Marco can heal himself but is not immortal. 

Marco&Jozu, has nothing more than strenght and haki to wound Akainu. Akainu is in possession of all the resources. 

Yeah, I still think there is a huge gap between Marco&Jozu's level and the Akainu's.


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## Slenderman (Nov 11, 2013)

Doma said:


> Oh, I see. You were saying it's conjecture Marco has another use for his flames. Maybe he does, but they don't help him offensively.
> 
> This is a terrible comparison. Akainu's magma is what allows him to burn holes into people. Garp doesn't have that power.
> 
> Explain to me exactly how it doesn't make sense. It does matter how much magma is in it. Oda's not always gonna shout out how much power they're using. If something is visually impressive, it's safe to assume it's stronger unless we have reason to believe otherwise. By your logic we have no proof Yasakani no Magatama is stronger than Kizaru's generic finger lasers.



 I'm just copying what you're saying. Nope you just got caught with a fallacious argument and know you're saying something else. You said that Akainu's attack was weak because it didn't go through Marco. By that logic Garp attack was weak to. That's literally what you're saying. Akainu's hand was engulfed with magma. I'm not falling for your trap where you just tried to make me contradict myself. I know that those flames don't help him. Well this is getting no where so let's agree to disagree.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 11, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> I was just kidding about Whitebeard! XD
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How was I speculating. I said Marco stopped the attack without injury. Jinbe didn't do that. It's as clear as that. Believe what you want but if Jozu was as far off as you insist Akainu's colleague wouldn't have gotten a bloody nose because of it.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 11, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> I was just kidding about Whitebeard! XD
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How was I speculating? I said Marco stopped the attack without injury. Jinbe didn't do that. It's as clear as that. Believe what you want but if Jozu was as far off as you insist Akainu's colleague wouldn't have gotten a bloody nose if there as far of as you insist. They're not close to the admirals strength but you're not giving them enough credit.


----------



## Doma (Nov 11, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> I'm just copying what you're saying. Nope you just got caught with a fallacious argument and know you're saying something else. You said that Akainu's attack was weak because it didn't go through Marco. By that logic Garp attack was weak to. That's literally what you're saying. Akainu's hand was engulfed with magma. I'm not falling for your trap where you just tried to make me contradict myself. I know that those flames don't help him. Well this is getting no where so let's agree to disagree.



You're just being willfully ignorant here. You yourself are making the fallacious argument. You're taking something I said in relation to one character and jumping to the conclusion it must hold true for all characters or I'm wrong.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Nov 11, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> He doesn't quite literally have to melt him for him to defeat him. Roasting him to a crisp, by pouring hot magma onto his body will also do the trick. And then there's the fact with his Dai Funka he can just simply punch Jozu out of the way, even if the heat doesn't affect him, the force of the blow would.
> 
> 
> As for this topic, normally I would post at tl;dr on it but I'm sure everyone already knows my views and I CBA.
> ...



Well, I am pretty sure that against both Marco and Jozu, Akainu should take quite a few brilliant punks from Jozu and one of them was enough to make Aokiji bleed. Marco can match Akainu in speed, block a lot of his attacks and push him towards Jozu, who has offense to hurt him (not that I believe that Marco cannot hurt him at all). This is why I see the duo winning.  They would also likely defeat MF WB IMO.

And this argument about fighting for days is not that strong, as Jimbei and Ace fought for five days and they are weaker than both Marco and Jozu.

Also, outside from Marco and Jozu having great feats, though Admirals have more consistent ones, I cannot accept the notion that an Admiral could beat two strongest people in WSM's crew at once. Such idea makes MF plot stupid as the Marines were quite keen to have all their strenght, Schibukai and Pacifista against WB and his allies. I cannot find it at the moment, but before MF, there was a panel of shadowed faces of WB, Marco and Jozu when incoming great battle was discussed. MF would not be called War of the Best if WB was the only threat to Marines top fighters.


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## Shanks (Nov 11, 2013)

same old same old.... Marco and Jozu wins mid dif.


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## Lmao (Nov 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Good job conveniently ignoring how the attack   completely burned Jimbe's arm.


I'm not ignoring anything, I   clearly said Jinbe took the attack _without losing_ _his arm_,   which given the huge gap between them and you thinking he used  powerful  attacks to kill Luffy is what should've happened - Jinbe's arm   melting/seriously damaged. 





Sakazuki said:


> So what if they were attacks aimed at Luffy?   Magma is magma. Akainu putting more strength behind his punch is not   going to make it more lethal.


Magma is magma is a piss poor   excuse. Never mind the fact we've seen Akainu's magma burn people to   different extent: Jinbe/Ace's arm light burns - Kuzan/WB permanent   scars|lost limbs. I won't go in depth explaining you why Akainu can   adjust the power and lethality behind his attacks but you're *seriously *asking why he would give freaking _comatose Luffy_ a love tap?



....



Sakazuki said:


> He can't leave himself exposed. That's stupid.   Kuzan mitigating Jozu's blow with his logia properties bears absolutely   no credence here. It's actually an extremely exaggerated feat.


"bears  absolutely no credence" and "is an exaggerated feat" are no   arguments. You can keep ignoring it all you like, fact remains the top   Commanders repeatedly failed to do anything significant to off guard   Admirals.

It's no coincidence Oda showed us _all_ top commanders failing, they had their time to shine justifying their title as Whitebeard's top fighters but that's about it, fighting someone stronger for short periods of time does not equate equality it simply proves you are strong enough to hold your ground against them. I'm not sure you're aware but fighting Admirals without getting humiliated is a great feat.

On the other hand Kuzan proved it only takes one small lapse of concentration/slip up on the Commanders' part to deal fatal blows.



Sakazuki said:


> But that is obviously not the case. Marco _and_ Jozu pounding at   him at once will have him down long before Akainu deals any serious   damage to them, and this is not even considering Marco's talons.


Akainu goes down long before he does any serious damage? It's like you're deliberately ignoring he took bloodlusted attacks from Whitebeard and he *still* went on to trash like 4 high tiers moments later. 



Sakazuki said:


> There's  absolutely no reason to believe  Akainu's haki will overshadow Marco's  every single time - what if Marco  connects with his human body and  cleaves his neck in two. Will he tank  that?


If him and Vista  combined can't even hit Akainu's real  body with a surprise attack _after _him  taking monster hits from  fucking Whitebeard then I have very good  reason to believe Marco will  have a far harder time damaging Akainu than  vice-versa.



Sakazuki said:


> He's seen with an army behind him not fighting the commanders.
> 
> 
> 
> He looks like he's about to do fodder sweep.


Just because we don't see Akainu fighting the commanders in _every damn panel_ he's in doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen. Defeating Curiel proves he was indeed fighting the Commanders he engaged a dozen panels prior, unless you think Curiel sacrificed himself/others went to deal with 'more' important issues than an ADMIRAL.Also like I mentioned in my previous post, the location/surroundings are the same so it's impossible for them NOT to be close.

And of course there are going to be other people attacking Akainu too, you don't expect fodder to watch them duke it out from the sidelines cheering _"Get him, Marco!"_, _"Looking good there, Vista"_  now do you?


----------



## RF (Nov 12, 2013)

> I'm not ignoring anything, I clearly said Jinbe took the attack without losing his arm, which given the huge gap between them and you thinking he used powerful attacks to kill Luffy is what should've happened - Jinbe's arm melting/seriously damaged.
> 
> His arm was fine later, he even used it to attack.



It's simply a testament to Jimbe's power that he managed to block Akainu, it's not an indicator that Akainu held back. That's stupid.





> *Magma is magma is a piss poor excuse*. Never mind the fact we've seen Akainu's magma burn people to different extent: Jinbe/Ace's arm light burns - Kuzan/WB permanent scars|lost limbs



No it isn't. Magma is magma. Akainu putting more strength in his punch is not going to make the magma hotter.  

Jimbe's and Ace's arms were only burned because they blocked the attack. When he hit their bodies, they were pierced melted. Just like how Whitebeard's was.



> you're seriously asking why he would give freaking comatose Luffy a love tap?



Yes. Luffy is Dragon's son and is in possession of the Conqueor's disposition. He's a _huge_ threat to the Goverment. Akainu is a cold-blooded extremist who blew up a ship full of civilians because of the slight possibility of a scholar escaping.

He had Jimbe, Marco, Vista and countless of other pirates get in his way already. Why the fuck would he give Luffy a love tap just because he isn't in a position to defend himself? That's not what Akainu's character is about.

I'm not saying he went all-out, he didn't. But he didn't hold back. That doesn't make sense unless you're an overzealous supporter of tiers. The attack was just as powerful as the one he gave Whitebeard in the plaza, and the one he delivered to Ace.



> *"bears absolutely no credence" and "is an exaggerated feat" are no arguments*. You can keep ignoring it all you like, fact remains the top Commanders repeatedly failed to do anything significant to off guard Admirals.



Yes they are. You just can't expect brawlers to land significant hits on opponents on the same level. That's fucking retarded. Luffy's punches did nothing to Lucci at first, yet he defeated him in a few chapters. Hell, Luffy's punches barely drew blood from Crocodile, yet a single move from the guy and Luffy was down. Who won their battle?

 Why would the same not be the case with Jozu? Another few of those and Aokiji would have broken ribs, not bloody lips. Add in Marco in the equation and it's hardly a contest.

Besides, what did an admiral do to off-guard Marco?



> It's no coincidence Oda showed us all top commanders failing, they had their time to shine justifying their title as Whitebeard's top fighters but that's about it,* fighting someone stronger for short periods of time does not equate equality* it simply proves you are strong enough to hold your ground against them. I'm not sure you're aware but fighting Admirals without getting humiliated is a great feat.



I agree. Fighting someone dead evenly from beginning to end and that person being incapable of doing a single thing to you even when you're not paying attention to them without enlisting a seastone wielding Vice Admiral does. 

If Oda wanted us to think that Kizaru is superior to Marco by any substanital amount then he did a horrible job portraying that. 



> *Akainu goes down long before he does any serious damage?* It's like you're deliberately ignoring he took bloodlusted attacks from Whitebeard and he still went on to trash like 4 high tiers moments later.



Yes.

He didn't "take" anything. He was knocked out cold and was forced to recuperate before resurfacing. Recuperating in general just isn't as impressive as people make it out to be. Chopper was devastated by hits from Oars, yet was running around a few minutes later. 

There is no way Akainu is significantly injuring them. He's fighting two people at once for God's sake. You can cite all of Akainu's feats all you want, but this match-up doesn't change. He's fighting two strong and fast brawlers with near inpenetrable defenses at once. He can't keep up with two of them at once, he can't evade the two of them at once, and he really can't siginificantly injure if he divides his attention to both. The only thing he can do here is take hits, and injure them moderately before going down.

Again, do you think Whitebeard could give 2 admirals a tough fight? Because for all intents and purposes, the gap between Whitebeard and Akainu is _at least_ as big as the one between Akainu and Marco.

Whitebeard was way, way more impressive than Akainu. He has a much greater offense, and can endure much more. That does not change the fact that 2 admirals fighting against him at once wouldn't result in a comfortable victory for the duo. Same case here. 



> If him and Vista combined can't even hit Akainu's real body with a surprise attack after him taking monster hits from fucking Whitebeard then I have very good reason to believe Marco will have a far harder time damaging Akainu than vice-versa.



First of all, it was a full chapter before Whitebeard attacked Akainu. Just wanted to clear that out. 

Second of all, Marco failed to hit the admirals once, and hit them twice. There's absolutely no reason to believe he'll have _that_ much of a problem hitting Akainu, especially when he's fighting with Jozu. And slashing attacks in general do significant damage so Marco won't need to hit him a million times to take him down.



> Just because we don't see Akainu fighting the commanders in every damn panel he's in doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen. Defeating Curiel proves he was indeed fighting the Commanders he engaged a dozen panels prior, unless you think Curiel sacrificed himself/others went to deal with 'more' important issues than an ADMIRAL.Also like I mentioned in my previous post, the location/surroundings are the same so it's impossible for them NOT to be close.
> 
> And of course there are going to be other people attacking Akainu too, you don't expect fodder to watch them duke it out from the sidelines cheering "Get him, Marco!", "Looking good there, Vista" now do you?



All of this is really irrelevant. I never said Akainu didn't take on the commanders AT ALL. I only said he didn't fight Marco, Vista, Crocodile and all the other commanders who rushed at him at once and started pounding at him. If that was the case then I'm sure somebody would be around Curiel when Akainu roasted him.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 12, 2013)

He didn't fight them all at once?  then what's up with that panel where Oda showed us Akainu standing on one side, an the WB's + Crocodile standing on the other side?


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## RF (Nov 12, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> He didn't fight them all at once?  then what's up with that panel where Oda showed us Akainu standing on one side, an the WB's + Crocodile standing on the other side?



He had back-up. Read chapter 579 thoroughly.


----------



## Mys??lf (Nov 12, 2013)

this thread again 

theres just one small thing I wanna point out/contribute.
Every Zoan is at his strongest in his hybrid form yet we never saw Marco fighting in said hybrid form .

We dont know if Marco may be stronger in his hybrid form but I think you still have to take that possibility into account

I dont wanna make a prediction on how this fight ends until I actually see some new feats by all of them.
Imo MF feats are too inconsistent


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 12, 2013)

Doma said:


> You're just being willfully ignorant here. You yourself are making the fallacious argument. You're taking something I said in relation to one character and jumping to the conclusion it must hold true for all characters or I'm wrong.



I'm not the one saying that Akainu's attack was weak because it didn't go through Marco while Garp's didn't but you refuse to listen.  The double standards. You even agreed to me that what you said didn't make sense if Marco didn't use COA to block Akainu's attack. I think it's painfully obvious that your mad know. I'm not ignorant. I said agree to disagree but it looks like you want to be shown up with your grand double standards and argument fallacies. So by that logic YNM is strong because it went through Marco right?  Honestly them double's.


----------



## trance (Nov 12, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He didn't "take" anything. *He was knocked out cold* and was forced to recuperate before resurfacing. Recuperating in general just isn't as impressive as people make it out to be. Chopper was devastated by hits from Oars, yet was running around a few minutes later



Lel. 

He was still conscious after taking those quakes. 

I see that your debating styles revolves around twisting things around to suit your argument. When debating for Marco (or simply against an Admiral), you deliberately bring up Akainu's shortcomings against WB and make him seem like fodder to him but when debating *for* Akainu (or Aokiji), you hype him up almost to WB's level. 

Here's a relatively simple question...how strong do you *honestly* view Akainu in relation to WB and Marco?


----------



## RF (Nov 13, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> Lel.
> 
> He was still conscious after taking those quakes.
> 
> ...



I'm not twisting anything. Akainu was incapacitated and he fell down the crevice. That's what happened in the manga, dude.

Whitebeard beats Akainu high diffculty. Akainu beats Marco very high difficulty.


----------



## trance (Nov 13, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> I'm not twisting anything. Akainu was incapacitated and he fell down the crevice. That's what happened in the manga, dude.



What I mean is, if you're debating for him, you'll glorify that Akainu could fight on par with WB (even saying that WB was near 100%) but when debating against him, the way you describe it, you make it seem Akainu was almost fodder to WB (like saying stab from Squard was insanely powerful and he already exerted himself fight against numerous "powerful" enemies before facing Akainu the first time).



Sakazuki said:


> Whitebeard beats Akainu high diffculty. Akainu beats Marco very high difficulty.



Sounds reasonable.


----------



## Giocatser (Nov 13, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He had back-up. Read chapter 579 thoroughly.



I did.. So what? Akainu was standing against the WB pirates and Crocodile.. If Akainu were near from Marco's level, do you really think that all they would have appeared in front of him, to stop him? I don't think so. This fact, talks for himself. 



Sakazuki said:


> I'm not twisting anything. Akainu was incapacitated and he fell down the crevice. That's what happened in the manga, dude.
> 
> Whitebeard beats Akainu high diffculty. Akainu beats Marco very high difficulty.




I think old Whitebeard could not beat Kizaru, Akainu or, even, Aokiji at Marineford.

What could do the old Whitebeard against Kizaru, for example?

I remind you that Whitebeard's first punch over Akainu, was an attack from behind and by surprise. That punch was launched with all his strenght and Akainu resisted and stood up to continue the fight. That was what happened in chapter 575.

In my opinion.. Akainu >= Old Whitebeard >> Marco


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## RF (Nov 13, 2013)

> I did.. So what? Akainu was standing against the WB pirates and Crocodile.. If Akainu were near from Marco's level, do you really think that all they would have appeared in front of him, to stop him? I don't think so. This fact, talks for himself.



No you didn't because in chapter 579 you can clearly see that Akainu wasn't taking on Marco and all the other commanders, but had a lot of back-up. 



> I think old Whitebeard could not beat Kizaru, Akainu or, even, Aokiji at Marineford.
> 
> What could do the old Whitebeard against Kizaru, for example?
> 
> ...



There was only one man called the world's strongest and it wasn't Akainu.

Whitebeard > Akainu => Aokiji => Kizaru => Marco


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## Giocatser (Nov 13, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No you didn't because in chapter 579 you can clearly see that Akainu wasn't taking on Marco and all the other commanders, but had a lot of back-up.
> 
> There was only one man called the world's strongest and it wasn't Akainu.
> 
> Whitebeard > Akainu => Aokiji => Kizaru => Marco




I will not add more than I've said before.. About 579..


You're right but.. Akainu is a monster, not a man XDD

The strongest, yeah.. So what? Obviously, old Whitebeard is phisically stronger than Akainu, but I consider Akainu, a better warrior than old Whitebeard, more complete. 

For example, in DBZ, Trunks was stronger than Perfect Cell but Perfect Cell was much more powerfull than him. You know what I mean..


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## Kai (Nov 13, 2013)

One Piece has absolutely no similarity to DBZ in terms of power levels.

Whitebeard was stated to be the strongest man in the world, even in his old age. Labels like that in One Piece are definitive until story progression takes over. That means anybody fighting Newgate one on one at least in the pre-skip will lose, period.


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## Giocatser (Nov 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> One Piece has absolutely no similarity to DBZ in terms of power levels.
> 
> Whitebeard was stated to be the strongest man in the world, even in his old age. Labels like that in One Piece are definitive until story progression takes over. That means anybody fighting Newgate one on one at least in the pre-skip will lose, period.




Ok, ok.. Kizaru is the faster man in the world. That means anybody fighting Kizaru one on one at least in the pre-skip will lose, period. That includes Whitebeard? Chapter 570-571. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBfQkWO0oes[/YOUTUBE]


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## Naisutime (Nov 13, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> Ok, ok.. Kizaru is the faster man in the world. That means anybody fighting Kizaru one on one at least in the pre-skip will lose, period. That includes Whitebeard? Chapter 570-571.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Except that fastest =/= strongest, so no.


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## RF (Nov 13, 2013)

> I will not add more than I've said before.. About 579..



Akainu standing in front of the commanders happened in chapter 578, I explicitly told you to read 579.


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## Giocatser (Nov 13, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Akainu standing in front of the commanders happened in chapter 578, I explicitly told you to read 579.




I've already told you:

I read 578 and 579. So what? Akainu was standing against the WB pirates and Crocodile.. If Akainu were near from Marco's level, do you really think that all they would have appeared in front of him, to stop him? I don't think so. This fact, talks for himself. 

How many hyenas are necessary to take down a male lion? Is the same.


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## RF (Nov 13, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> I've already told you:
> 
> I read 578 and 579. So what? Akainu was standing against the WB pirates and Crocodile.. If Akainu were near from Marco's level, do you really think that all they would have appeared in front of him, to stop him? I don't think so. This fact, talks for himself.
> 
> How many hyenas are necessary to take down a male lion? Is the same.



So what if he was standing in front of them when he was never shown actually fighting against them all at once and had back-up?


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## Giocatser (Nov 13, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Akainu standing in front of the commanders happened in chapter 578, I explicitly told you to read 579.




.. The key is.. WHY the WB pirates goes en masse to confront Akainu to block his way and stop his persecution? Maybe because they all are aware of the huge gap between their level and the Akainu's (??) It's obvious.. 

None so blind as those who will not see..


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## RF (Nov 13, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> .. The key is.. WHY the WB pirates goes en masse to confront Akainu to block his way and stop his persecution? Maybe because they all are aware the huge gap between their level and the Akainu's (??) It's obvious..
> 
> None so blind as those who will not see..



Why would they _not_ stop him all at once? Why would they send only Marco alone while the others watch from the sidelines? That's absolutely stupid. It's canonically confirmed that 

All of them agreed that they recognized the massive potential Luffy carries and decided to stop Akainu from going any furhter. Next chapter they appeared, You can twist these scenes and nitpick all you want, but the point is that Akainu never fought all the commanders at once, and he in all likelihood couldn't do that. 

Marco already proved that he can stand up to the admirals and fight on equal ground with them. He clashed dead evenly with Kizaru and their stalemate was only broken when Kizaru enlisted a Vice Admiral to chain him to seastone. That's factual manga evidence, as opposed to the biased picture you're attempting to create. 

By your logic, all 3 admirals are needed to stop a quake from Whitebeard because all 3 of them stopped it in the manga. Or even better, Kizaru needs Onigumo to beat Marco because he required his help to do so in the manga. 

Absolutely nonsensical and brilliantly stupid.


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## Lmao (Nov 13, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> It's simply a testament to Jimbe's power that he managed to block Akainu, it's not an indicator that Akainu held back. That's stupid.
> 
> We can see in the next panel that his arm is burning.


How is it stupid that Akainu held back when even his weakest attack could've killed Luffy? Your point would've had some basis if Luffy was in a fighting stance but in a comatose state? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Why are you showing me that panel when I've already proved his arm ?



Sakazuki said:


> No it isn't. Magma is magma. Akainu putting more strength in his punch is not going to make the magma hotter.


Now you're just being willfully ignorant, for one magma temperature isn't static it ranges anywhere from 700 ?C to 1300 ?C (or 1300 ?F to 2400 ?F), so yeah Akainu putting more 'effort' in his punch IS going to make his magma hotter. Also something to note when Akainu defeated Ivankov:



Looks like he was hit on the chest/abdominal area yet he too didn't sustain any severe injury, further proving he can indeed adjust the power of his attacks. Really giving Marco/Jinbe credit for taking attacks not meant for them is no different than saying  or 



Sakazuki said:


> Yes they are. You just can't expect brawlers to land significant hits on opponents on the same level. That's fucking retarded. Luffy's punches did nothing to Lucci at first, yet he defeated him in a few chapters.


Yes I'm expecting more than just a bloody lip from a brawler with one of the best strength feats in the entire manga, even more so when his opponent wasn't even focused on him.



Sakazuki said:


> I agree. Fighting someone dead evenly from beginning to end and that person being incapable of doing a single thing to you even when you're not paying attention to them without enlisting a seastone wielding Vice Admiral does.


You see that's the problem, you view Marco's exchange with Kizaru throughout the war as some kind of indication of equality between the two while ignoring two major aspects. Kizaru the single goofiest, most laid back character in the series using 2 ranged attacks out of his arsenal (YnM once and just basic finger lasers spam) on Marco, a character whose forte is regeneration aka HEALING himself lead you to conclude that Marco is nigh Admiral level

...

Holy Jesus, do you even comprehend just how flowed that interpretation is? And let's not act like Kizaru's attacks did nothing, they were damaging Marco just fine it's thanks to his ability that it looked like the Admiral was "incapable of doing a single thing". On the other hand, Marco didn't even manage to land one clean hit on the Admiral (or any Admiral for that matter), his kicks were both blocked and his talons never scratched Akainu's real body.

Yeah Oda did a horrible job portraying the Admirals' superiority sure...



Sakazuki said:


> Yes.
> 
> He didn't "take" anything. He was knocked out cold and was forced to recuperate before resurfacing. Recuperating in general just isn't as impressive as people make it out to be. Chopper was devastated by hits from Oars, yet was running around a few minutes later.


Of course he took the attacks, both of them. One of which was a sneak bloodlust attack from the fucking strongest man in the world, he got up immediately took half of Whitebeard's face only to be hit by his strongest quake yet point blank and he still didn't lose consciousness unlike Chopper who was instantly out.

Then he returns to the battlefield not long after trashing 4 high tiers and would've probably gotten more hadn't Shanks interrupted the war.


Sakazuki said:


> There is no way Akainu is significantly injuring them. He's fighting two people at once for God's sake. You can cite all of Akainu's feats all you want, but this match-up doesn't change. He's fighting two strong and fast brawlers with near inpenetrable defenses at once.


I like how you speak about the Commanders pounding Akainu and all without considering that even getting close to him will be a dangerous enough task considering his AoE.



Sakazuki said:


> First of all, it was a full chapter before Whitebeard attacked Akainu. Just wanted to clear that out.
> 
> Second of all, Marco failed to hit the admirals once, and hit them twice. There's absolutely no reason to believe he'll have that much of a problem hitting Akainu, especially when he's fighting with Jozu. And slashing attacks in general do significant damage so Marco won't need to hit him a million times to take him down.


Fair enough.

'Hit twice', Kizaru blocked the first kick with his arm and Aokiji's ice saber took most if not all the impact from the second kick, those don't count as 'hits' in my book but whatever floats your boat. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why 2 top Commanders, who individually encountered Admiral level opponents, failed to even scratch Akainu's real body under such conditions:

- surprise attack
- bloodlust on
- combined effort of two people, one of which was perfectly healthy

I'm sure if Oda hadn't showed us that panel everyone (me included) would assume 2 bloodlusted top Commanders attacking an Admiral simultaneously couldn't possibly fail to inflict damage, but they did.


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## Giocatser (Nov 13, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Why would they _not_ stop him all at once? Why would they send only Marco alone while the others watch from the sidelines? That's absolutely stupid. It's canonically confirmed that
> 
> All of them agreed that they recognized the massive potential Luffy carries and decided to stop Akainu from going any furhter. Next chapter they appeared, You can twist these scenes and nitpick all you want, but the point is that Akainu never fought all the commanders at once, and he in all likelihood couldn't do that.
> 
> ...




It's not my logic. The 3 admirals were together in that moment. And each time when they faced to old Whitebeard, they were alone. Aokiji vs Whitebeard (interrupted by Jozu), Akainu vs Whitebeard, Kizaru vs Whitebeard (interrupted by Marco).. An admiral would be enough to stop (maybe not to win) old Whitebeard at Marineford. 

Kizaru didn't need help from Onigumo to beat Marco, but he thought the easiest and fastest way of beating him was to use the sea stone handcuff. That's called "intelligence". 

It's not the same logic..  

But, like you want. 

To me, Akainu is, by far, stronger than Marco and much more powerful in all aspects. Obviously Marco is one of the strongest characters in One Piece and has the best regenerating system.. Yeah.. it's clear..

Akainu >= Old Whitebeard >> Marco.


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## Giocatser (Nov 13, 2013)

By the way.. Akainu is not only "magma". He is a walking volcano. He can launch magma with the strength of a volcano's eruption (Dai Funka). Also, magma produces letal toxic gases. The temperature of the magmatic mantle near the nucleous, what (technically) is also magma (although is not called "magma"), is around the 4.000 degrees. The temperature around Akainu's body when he is turned into magma, is very elevated.. This also could help Akainu in a fight, for example in a long one. 

Then.. Akainu is magma (melted rocks), lava, fire, gas, heat.. Is not only "magma". He is a walking volcano!


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## Slenderman (Nov 13, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> I did.. So what? Akainu was standing against the WB pirates and Crocodile.. If Akainu were near from Marco's level, do you really think that all they would have appeared in front of him, to stop him? I don't think so. This fact, talks for himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Old WB beat Akainu. True manga facts.


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## Slenderman (Nov 13, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> I will not add more than I've said before.. About 579..
> 
> 
> You're right but.. Akainu is a monster, not a man XDD
> ...



The WSM counts as in fighting not wieght lifting. Your grasping for straws.


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## Giocatser (Nov 14, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Old WB beat Akainu. True manga facts.




What about the first round between them? Akainu win.

I mean, the problem is we have not seen a fair fight between them, the first round wasn't nor the second one.

The second round, begins with the strongest quake punch ever (from behind and by surprise) from Whitebeard over Akainu. Akainu almost die after that. This is a true manga FACT.

This is like begin a basketball match with 30-0 for one of teams.

Could you agree with that? A little bit?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 14, 2013)

If the admirals wanted to fight WB they won't go blow for blow with him. Saw what happened to akainu? But I guess WB sort of pissed him off which is why he rushed into him.

Kizaru and aokiji were playing smart with the dodging game using logia intangibility.


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## Kid (Nov 14, 2013)

> What about the first round between them? Akainu win.



Which round? Do you mean that round were whitebeard got an heartattack and fall on his knees while spitting blood( because of that illness) and then Akainu walked over to him and magmafisted him in the chest?

Do you mean that round? 

 

Seriously.

Don't even try to argue that Whitebeard = Akainu or even Akainu > Whitebeard or that kinda shit.


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## Giocatser (Nov 14, 2013)

Kid said:


> Which round? Do you mean that round were whitebeard got an heartattack and fall on his knees while spitting blood( because of that illness) and then Akainu walked over to him and magmafisted him in the chest?
> 
> Do you mean that round?
> 
> ...




Akainu was able to block the Whitebeard's Bisento with a foot, and they crashed their powers in a dai funka vs quake punch collision (it is part of the first round too, did you forgotten?). 

And yeah, Akainu magmafisted Whitebeard in the chest because of that illness (because his OLD age). That's why I've said before: "the problem is we have not seen a fair fight between them, the first round wasn't nor the second one", and that's why I always specify "OLD Whitebeard".. OLD Whitebeard is a SICK Whitebeard!

And I'm refering to that round (first) and to the second round. 

I'm not trying to argue "that Whitebeard = Akainu or even Akainu > Whitebeard or that kinda shit" as you say. I don't need argue something like this, because it seems obvious. I've said before too, TO ME - IN MY OPINION:  Akainu >= OLD (SICK) Whitebeard >> Marco. 

I'm not trying to persuade anybody about that, I'm just saying what I think.

What don't you understand?

I know maybe I'm the only one on the universe that thinks that way.. I don't care..



Is this a sect or a forum to debate and compare our opinions? Free thinking!


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## Kid (Nov 14, 2013)

Giocatser said:


> Akainu was able to block the Whitebeard's Bisento with a foot, and they crashed their powers in a dai funka vs quake punch collision (it is part of the first round too, did you forgotten?).
> 
> And yeah, Akainu magmafisted Whitebeard in the chest because of that illness (because his OLD age). That's why I've said before: "the problem is we have not seen a fair fight between them, the first round wasn't nor the second one", and that's why I always specify "OLD Whitebeard".. OLD Whitebeard is a SICK Whitebeard!
> 
> ...



There we go.

No point in arguing with you.

Old Whitebeard > Akainu > Marco.


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## RF (Nov 14, 2013)

Old Whitebeard being above Akainu is a manga fact. What you think is irrelevant.


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## Giocatser (Nov 14, 2013)

Kid said:


> There we go.
> 
> No point in arguing with you.
> 
> Old Whitebeard > Akainu > Marco.



...

I'm not arguing about that.. I'm just reminding you a few little true manga facts. Arguing is a different thing. That's why I'm saying that I'm not trying to argue. 

The question was Akainu vs Marco and Jozu. I've said my point of view "Akainu win mid-high/high diff". If you don't like it.. If you don't agree with that... I'm sorry, what can I do? Must I think as you like?


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## Giocatser (Nov 14, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Old Whitebeard being above Akainu is a manga fact. What you think is irrelevant.




Thanks a lot! XDD


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## RF (Nov 14, 2013)

> How is it stupid that Akainu held back when even his weakest attack could've killed Luffy? Your point would've had some basis if Luffy was in a fighting stance but in a comatose state? It makes no sense whatsoever.



Because Akainu is a cold-blooded extremist who is willing to kill entire families if there's a slight chance that a scholar escaped. He's not modest enough to hold back on his enemy just because he's unconscious. He didn't give Whitebeard a chance to compose himself when he had a heart attack, no, he instantly slammed him into the chest with a magma fist. Luffy is the son of the most dangerous criminal to the Goverment, Akainu considers it a high level priority to kill him. He's just not going to hold back. Period. 



> Now you're just being willfully ignorant, for one magma temperature isn't static it ranges anywhere from 700 ?C to 1300 ?C (or 1300 ?F to 2400 ?F), so yeah Akainu putting more 'effort' in his punch IS going to make his magma hotter.



I'm perfectly aware that the temperature of magma differs. What I'm saying is Akainu putting more strength in his punch (strenght in this context meaning physical strength) is not going to make the magma hotter. If you want to think that Akainu used his least potent incarnation of magma against Dragon's son, then you're free to believe that, but I disagree.

Besides, I dislike applying anything from our universe onto the One Piece one. I don't think Oda wants us to believe that Akainu can drastically change the temperature of his own magma the same way I doubt Oda wants us to think Marco can kick around admirals due to acceleration. 



> Also something to note when Akainu defeated Ivankov:



Ivankov wasn't punched. It was a ranged attack most likely. Any person Akainu punched with magma so far had a huge hole on their chest. No reason to think he wouldn't do the same to Ivankov. 



> Really giving Marco/Jinbe credit for taking attacks not meant for them is no different than saying Daz Bones is great for taking Mihawk's attack with no damage or Crocodile stopping Kokuto Yoru with his hook.



That would be the case if Marco/Jimbe took Dai Funka or something. They didn't. They took a magma_ fist _from Akainu, Marco to the face even, and he was just fine. Daz Bones was one-shotted when Mihawk connected with his blade.

Crocodile didn't stop anything, by the way. He was the one that initiated and Mihawk blocked _his_ attack. 



> Holy Jesus, do you even comprehend just how flowed that interpretation is?



It isn't. You're just approaching the matter from a feat perspective and overanalyzing to make your point. I could very easily turn the table around and claim how the admirals never managed to hurt Marco and then we'd be just going in cycles of irrelevant bullshit. *The following is the core argument, feel free to disagree with it and my interpretation, but that's all it is; a subjective interpretation. *:

Whenever the author wanted us to think that there was a siginificant gap between two characters, he ambigiously made that clear through portrayal; Garp surprise-attacked Marco and slammed him into the ground. The sole point of that scene was to convery Garp's level of strength and superiority to Marco. When Jozu dropped his guard down, Kuzan snapped his arm right off and dispatched him for the remained of the war; one could argue that it was simply because Jozu dropped his guard, but the implication was clear; Kuzan is stronger than Jozu.

Kizaru _never_ had such portrayal going for him. Whenever we saw him and Marco clash, they were stalemated. They had an even exchange right off the bat, and Kizaru couldn't put him down without resorting to outside help. To me, that's a clear cut suggestion that the two of them are close in power. If you want to disagree then please do, but you are in no position to arrogantly claim that my subjective interpretation is wrong. 



> Of course he took the attacks, both of them.



Oh, okay then. I wasn't sure how to contextualize this. 



> I like how you speak about the Commanders pounding Akainu and all without considering that even getting close to him will be a dangerous enough task considering his AoE.



The starting distance is 60 meters. For characters on this level, that's a second. And I fail to see how they're in danger of Akainu's AoE when Kizaru's laser barrage or Mihawk's slash didn't even scratch Marco/Jozu. 



> those don't count as 'hits' in my book



Why not? Marco connected with their bodies and sent them flying. Hell, if Marco couldn't even hurt Kizaru then there would be no reason to block his attack. 



> I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why 2 top Commanders, who individually encountered Admiral level opponents, failed to even scratch Akainu's real body



The same applies to Whitebeard, the strongest man in the world, who failed to scratch Aokiji when imapling him with a haki-enhanced bisento to the gut, but it still happened.

I guess we'll have to wait for a comprehensive explanation.


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## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

They might actually have a chance of winning this. It depends on... in real life, lava can't melt diamond, but is this also the case in the OP world? If it can't, they lose.


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