# Jiraiya vs. Orochimaru



## Rocky (Jul 15, 2015)

*Location:* Sannin Battleground
*Distance:* 15m
*Mindset:* IC
*Knowledge:* Manga

Hiruzen-fight Orochimaru, but he's got all of his feats from Part II that come before the Zetsu body.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 15, 2015)

Increase the distance to 50m (standard), you're deliberately giving Orochimaru the advantage as the superior close quarter animal.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 15, 2015)

50 meters is standard...?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 15, 2015)

Are you suggesting 15m is more standard?


----------



## Rocky (Jul 15, 2015)

Yes, fights normally begin around conversation distance. You can comment on how you think the fight would go at a longer range though.


----------



## Kai (Jul 15, 2015)

Orochimaru. 

Oro at this time possessed both of his arms, was the main villain of Part 1, the labeled genius among the Sannin, and killed Hiruzen who was the strongest of all Konoha shinobi at the time of the invasion. When Orochimaru meets Jiraiya, the former knows he is stronger than Jiraiya and Jiraiya doesn't contest this sentiment. Instead, we're shown Jiraiya's failure to bring Orochimaru back to the village, and this _is_ an indication of his inferior strength as proven in the parallel with Naruto and Sasuke. When Naruto failed to bring Sasuke to the village the first time, he cursed his own lack of strength and we're to believe Jiraiya felt no differently.

Last but not least, Orochimaru's boss summon is superior to Jiraiya's in a one on one.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

Jiraiya wins more often than not, because he achieves Sennn Modo more often than not, and once he's in Sennin Modo he's much stronger than Orochimaru. Orochimaru IC is not likely to hit Jiraiya hard and fast enough to prevent Sennin Modo, quite frankly very few characters IC are likely to do so, as IC most Naruto characters start with their weaker shit and work their way up to their triumphs, which is exactly why Jiraiya was able to reach Sennin Modo against someone much stronger than Orochimaru [Nagato].

And as far as the actual comparison at the heart of this thread between Jiriaya and Orochimaru. SM-Jiraiya > Orochimaru. Granted if he doesn't achieve SM, than Orochimaru is better, but in most instance Jiraiya will achieve SM, not just because of what I said above, but because most of the time matches in the Naruto world are between Teams and in Team matches Jiraiya will have teammates to cover for him increasing the odds of him reaching SM. Likewise Jiraiya has a number of abilities that can significantly aid him in reaching SM given the location he's in. If he's in a cave, building, etc... Toad Stomach is a good way to create a safe space to reach the mode. If he's near water Toad Gourd can be utilized to create a similar safe space to reach SM. If the battlefield has LOS blockage Gamagakuru can be used to escape detection while reaching Sennin Modo, depending on the enemy. This besides the fact that Jiraiya can reach SM before the battle begins if he has prior prep which most of the time Shinobi in the Naruto manga do have.

For example every battle in the War-Arc Jiraiya would have been able to reach SM in, ether because of teammates or prior knowledge from HQ


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 15, 2015)

Ninja have conversations over hundreds of meters of distance, it has happened.

15m distance, in an open field, only happens when one ninja works his ass off to achieve it, or they both don't give a shit about separation from the start. 

Base Jiraiya isn't adept in close quarters, Orochimaru is a regenerating, durable immortal with stretching limbs, neck, barfing & stretching Kusanagi and randomized Oral Rebirth- he's made for close quarter interaction. 

If you're attempting to equal out the plane of competition you need to increase the distance to 50m, which isn't close enough for Jiraiya to be a disadvantage, yet not far enough for Orochimaru to be at a disadvantage. 

The reason you made this thread is to decide who is stronger, right?

Would you start a battle between Deidara & the 3rd Raikage at 15m?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 15, 2015)

Orochimaru wins with the invisible neurotoxins.



Kai said:


> When Orochimaru meets Jiraiya, the former knows he is stronger than Jiraiya and Jiraiya doesn't contest this sentiment.



Typical crazy villain taunting.

Implicit in the phrasing of "against one of those Sannin another of the Sannin is required" is that they are identically powerful, as they are explicitly stated to be in the fan book later.



> Instead, we're shown Jiraiya's failure to bring Orochimaru back to the village, and this _is_ an indication of his inferior strength as proven in the parallel with Naruto and Sasuke. When Naruto failed to bring Sasuke to the village the first time, he cursed his own lack of strength and we're to believe Jiraiya felt no differently.



This is ignoring how it's been established _at least_ four times (Deidara, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Suigetsu come to mind) that capturing someone alive (what Jiraiya would have been doing then, as Naruto would have been) is more difficult than simply fighting to kill them.



> Last but not least, Orochimaru's boss summon is superior to Jiraiya's in a one on one.



It has a natural advantage over Jiraiya's summon. It isn't _superior_ to it.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 15, 2015)

Just came here to see Flamingrain vs Kai. They have been ignoring themselves for far too long already. 

My opinion doesn't matter. Kai vs FR now! Here's the theme song


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Typical crazy villain taunting.



Orochimaru was taunting Jiraiya, but he was referencing to the past. His taunt wasn't unsubstantiated.
Even if he had an elevated opinion of himself, he wouldn't say this if he was actually weaker than Jiriaya. 

I always assumed it was more of a Naruto vs Sasuke thing between those two. They were almost equal, but Sasuke always had a higher opinion of himself(being a genius and all) and considered himself to be superior. Through out the most of the manga, he had a slight edge too, up until war arc where shark was jumped and nothing made sense anymore. 

Thats always been my take on Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Two shinobi of equal power, but Orochimaru seemed to have the slight edge going by his own definition and Naruto/Sasuke parallel.

People used to play the SM card before War arc, and claim that Orochimaru didn't know about SM but then we learned that he did.
Though it may be a retcon. 

But all in all, I don't think you can decide who is stronger solely going by what Orochimaru said.
I still think they are more or less equal in power. People usually discredit Orochimaru because we really haven't seen what Yamata no Orochi is capable of. But then, Itachi'd do the same thing to Jiraiya, so it is a moot point.

In a match up between the two however, Orochimaru would win because he is better equipped to deal with Jiraiya's moveset than Jiraiya is equipped to deal with his. 

Orochimaru can tank or oral rebirth through most of Jiraiya's arsenal, even use snakes as meat shields like Sasuke did. Jiriaya doesn't have a realistic way of putting him down, while Orochimaru has more than a few jutsu to put Jiriaya down. 

Frog song seems like Jiraiya's only chance of victory, but Orochimaru can repell the sound with his fuuton or simply by merging with the ground(some people love to use this argument against Itachi) and it is an overall hard jutsu to pull off.

tl;dr

Orochimaru wins.

edit : 50 meters isn't standart, like rocky said most fights start off close quarters, although I don't think distance matters much here, as they have hugeass summons and that distance will be closed in no time. So this fight could start from 150 meters for that matter, nothing would change.


----------



## Kai (Jul 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Typical crazy villain taunting.
> 
> Implicit in the phrasing of "against one of those Sannin another of the Sannin is required" is that they are identically powerful, as they are explicitly stated to be in the fan book later.


Orochimaru, who is one of the most knowledgeable people about Jiraiya, saying something about their relative strengths is not typical taunting. If anything it is the most substantiated taunting based on shared history. Jiraiya says his technique wasn't effective, and Orochimaru then implied he would have the advantage if he pushed a little more.

Also, "needing a Sannin against another Sannin" is phrased completely within the context of Konoha and its resources. In Konoha, only a Sannin could possibly match another Sannin, at least at that critical time. It wasn't referred to on a global stake if we want to discuss the Narutoverse.



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> This is ignoring how it's been established _at least_ four times (Deidara, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Suigetsu come to mind) that capturing someone alive (what Jiraiya would have been doing then, as Naruto would have been) is more difficult than simply fighting to kill them.


Don't know where you surmised that.

It's been established quite clearly in this manga that one needs to fight to kill in order to win. Suffering loss is cited as a result when the merciful one continues to act merciful. When fighting Killer B, Taka discarded that restrictive mentality and fought to kill in order to win.



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> It has a natural advantage over Jiraiya's summon. It isn't _superior_ to it.


All you provide is but one rationale as to why Orochimaru's summon is superior over Jiraiya's summon.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jul 15, 2015)

Jiraiya would have stopped Oro before Part 1 if he truly was stronger. He knew where he was and what he was doing. And he was perfectly willing to kill Tsunade and Nagato - so teammate/friend/student doesn't stop him from killing someone if necessary. So yeah. Oro had the edge until he lost his arms. And jumped a tier+ after gaining near-perfect Edo Tensei and Zetsubody.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> *Location:* Sannin Battleground
> *Distance:* 15m
> *Mindset:* IC
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> ...



What feats? 



Kai said:


> Last but not least, *Orochimaru's boss summon is superior to Jiraiya's in a one on one*.



Not sure if serious! 

-----------

Oro With ET (part 2) > SM Jiraiya > Oro = base Jiraiya (tho match ups might be in favour of Oro)


By feats however, I honestly see Jiraiya as the stronger man. I have no clue how Oro was able to win! 

Even tho it seems Jiraiya was holding back against him because "I want to bring you back home" type of shit! 

@Turrin


> For example every battle in the War-Arc Jiraiya would have been able to reach SM in, ether because of teammates or prior knowledge from HQ



Fairly sure if Jiraiya was brought back as an ET, he will use SM MUCH faster. 
it's just first time deal thing same like with every other move. I can give a list if it needs to. I am fairly sure Kishi is not going to waste chapter entirely
to show that process all over again. Same deal with other SM users.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Increase the distance to 50m (standard), you're deliberately giving Orochimaru the advantage as the superior close quarter animal.



Most fights start closer than 15 meters. 5 meters would be standard in canon.


----------



## Kai (Jul 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not sure if serious!


Not sure if serious


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ...



_Grimmjowsensei_, did you just notice that one sentence and quote it right away, or actually read more than that sentence out of my post?

Because I can't tell what you bothered to quote me for if you did.

We seem to _agree_ insofar as thinking that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equals with Orochimaru simply matching up better against Jiraiya specifically than vice-versa.



Kai said:


> Orochimaru, who is one of the most knowledgeable people about Jiraiya, saying something about their relative strengths is not typical taunting.



It is typical taunting.

Orochimaru told Jiraiya that with both of them being mutually handicapped he'd win. He didn't say "it's because I'm the strongest", and you _don't_ have to actually be _stronger_ than someone to have an advantage specifically over them.

You read that much into the page, not off of it.

Their relationship is one of competition. A deadlock is a stalemate, a standoff- they are for all intents and purposes even, which is why you have the string of interchangeability including Ebisu's "against one of the Sannin another Sannin is needed" and the second databook's "are the only ones who can fight against the Sannin the Sannin themselves" which _imply the same thing the fanbook says straight up_ with "Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya _and_ Orochimaru".

Tsunade can't be every bit a match for _both_ of them if they themselves are not equals, and yet she is, necessitating that they _are_ equals.

Orochimaru being especially powerful in comparison to Jiraiya is a myth that flies in the face of what's been said about them in canon.



> Also, "needing a Sannin against another Sannin" is phrased completely within the context of Konoha and its resources. In Konoha, only a Sannin could possibly match another Sannin, at least at that critical time. It wasn't referred to on a global stake if we want to discuss the Narutoverse.



Which is irrelevant.

We're talking about Jiraiya and Orochimaru here, and what _the way that statement is phrased_ implies for how _they_ compare.

It implies the same thing _for them_ regardless of who else exists on the planet that is capable of matching them.



> Don't know where you surmised that.



Deidara's complaint after capturing Gaara _(1)_.

Tsunade's orders for the Nijyu Shotai _(2)_.

Jiraiya's comment about what someone would do if they found Itachi _(3)_.

Suigetsu's comment about Killer Bee demonstrates the same thing. It's just that Killer Bee was _so_ strong that fighting to kill would be required if they wanted to capture him.

If it takes _more_ skill to capture someone than to kill them, then in a fight _between equals_ where one is trying to capture the other failure is obviously going to become particularly likely.



> All you provide is but one rationale as to why Orochimaru's summon is superior over Jiraiya's summon.



No, because being able to win against someone isn't the same thing as being superior to them outright.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 15, 2015)

As Ninja overall I think it's clear that Jiraiya is the superior shinobi, just like with itachi as shown in the 3rd Databook. But, then it comes in to advantages when they come to face each other.

Tho, since part 2 started, I feel like Kishi was saying that Oro is not someone who's meant to be taken seriously honestly.
He was more like a walking joke! That was never the case about Jiraiya however.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _Grimmjowsensei_, did you just notice that one sentence and quote it right away, or actually read more than that sentence out of my post?
> 
> Because I can't tell what you bothered to quote me for if you did.
> 
> We seem to _agree_ insofar as thinking that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equals with Orochimaru simply matching up better against Jiraiya specifically than vice-versa.



Sorry, the whole reply wasn't directed @ you, just the part regarding the quote. 
I just think dismissing Oro's remark about their strength as "crazy villain taunting" isn't exactly right.



Hussain said:


> As Ninja overall I think it's clear that Jiraiya is the superior shinobi, just like with itachi as shown in the 3rd Databook. But, then it comes in to advantages when they come to face each other.
> 
> Tho, since part 2 started, I feel like Kishi was saying that Oro is not someone who's meant to be taken seriously honestly.
> He was more like a walking joke! That was never the case about Jiraiya however.



Stat totals don't mean shit.

Itachi has better stats.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 15, 2015)

Itachi's stats include his most valuable tool (Sharingan/MS). Jiraiya's stats however does not include his most powerful jutsu (SM), which with it, itachi will be left completely outclassed in all of those areas.

And even then, the different is really small, when itachi is lacking where it matters most (chakra). His small advantage in those areas are only going to last
for a little while. Not to mention that Jiraiya has areas where he is better than itachi anyway.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Itachi's stats include his most valuable tool (Sharingan/MS). Jiraiya's stats however does not include his most powerful jutsu (SM), which with it, itachi will be left completely outclassed in all of those areas.


what ? no.


> And even then, the different is really small, when itachi is lacking where it matters most (chakra). His small advantage in those areas are only going to last
> for a little while. Not to mention that Jiraiya has areas where he is better than itachi anyway.



Jiraiya is better than Itachi in stamina and strength, which have nothing to do with skill or talent. And guess what, 95% of Databook is better than Itachi in stamina, if it worth a damn, Itachi'd be weaker than most of the shinobi in the databook.

Itachi is better in speed, genjutsu, handseals and intelligence. On par with taijutsu and ninjutsu.

So Itachi is superior in 4 stats. Jiraiya is superior in 2 and tied in 2.

How is Jiraiya Itachi's equal in stats ?


----------



## Duhul10 (Jul 15, 2015)

It is funny the fact that every time comparison between the three of them was made, Jiraiya was not in his sage mode (exeption can be considered Animal Path's statement, yet it was referring to abillities only, not match-up ) and the databook stats sustain that. We saw that an opponent has to be on a rinnegan user's caliber for Jiraiya to resort to sage mode. I mean he faced people like Orochimaru ( with both his arms sealed, the three way battle and unsealed, in their youth ) , Itachi, Kisame, Konan   and he did not feel he needs to enter that mode.

Oh, grimmy, that is Base Jiraiya


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 15, 2015)

Asuma thought he could take Itachi and Kisame. Jiraiya thought he could kill Itachi & Kisame with his toad stomach.

Characters understimate each other, or make in character mistakes. 

Jiraiya not using SM agianst Itachi doesn't mean anything. Itachi turned his back on Jiraiya and mindfucked Sasuke. He wasn't concerned about jiraiya one bit.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 15, 2015)

> [=Grimmjowsensei;53996211]what ? no.


What do you mean "What? no." ? 

See, there is notes in the first Databook that indicates the stats about the sound 5 for example is
about their "normal" stats


and you can see those statements here
the impact scale
Look at the statement under their stats. And I believe ShounenSuki is one of the best translators out there. 

Now, we know that CS are "imperfect" SM, so same shit apply here. Which makes sense!
Because even Naruto got a 4 in the chakra depart meant in the first 2 databooks, unless you believe
Kurama's chakra is not enough to make his chakra 5, it's obvious that those "outside" powers are not included. 

and you can't see that note with eyes powers since they are part of their owners power naturally. 


> Jiraiya is better than Itachi in stamina and strength, which have nothing to do with skill or talent. And guess what, 95% of Databook is better than Itachi in stamina, if it worth a damn, Itachi'd be weaker than most of the shinobi in the databook.



They are better than him in stamina, but they don't have near everything else like Jiraiya does. 



> Itachi is better in speed, genjutsu, handseals and intelligence. On par with taijutsu and ninjutsu.
> 
> So Itachi is superior in 4 stats. Jiraiya is superior in 2 and tied in 2.
> 
> How is Jiraiya Itachi's equal in stats ?



Jiraiya has better Ninjutsu than itachi, and much more than him as well tho.  
and aside from the Genjutsu, the other 2 is by a really little different (I doubt handseal is even relevant to be honest. ). 


I did not say he is "equal" in the stats, I admitted there is a little differences


> And even then,* the different is really small*, when itachi is lacking where it matters most (chakra).



I am talking about SM Jiraiya outclassing itachi in those stats however. I don't think you will deny the SM boost to those stuff, will you?


----------



## Duhul10 (Jul 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Asuma thought he could take Itachi and Kisame. Jiraiya thought he could kill Itachi & Kisame with his toad stomach.
> 
> Characters understimate each other, or make in character mistakes.
> 
> Jiraiya not using SM agianst Itachi doesn't mean anything. Itachi turned his back on Jiraiya and mindfucked Sasuke. He wasn't concerned about jiraiya one bit.



Actually he was concerned about Jiraiya, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to trick him and would have face him.  And no, Jiraiya was threatening Itachi and then Sasuke appears begging Jiraiya not to kill Itachi and saying shit like he has to face him or something like that.

chameleon came up - Itachi did not look like he does not give a darn. Actually we have rarely seen Itachi so concerned

Jiraiya actually let them fight because he respected Sasuke's decision. 


He did not underestimated Itachi , he actually used like one of his strongest, if not strongest base Jutsu, a trap that was considered unescapable., yet Sage mode was still not worth to be used.


----------



## Kai (Jul 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru told Jiraiya that with both of them being mutually handicapped he'd win. He didn't say "it's because I'm the strongest", and you _don't_ have to actually be _stronger_ than someone to have an advantage specifically over them.


The shoe consistently fits FR. Orochimaru being above Jiraiya when they were young; Orochimaru being above Jiraiya while both have mutual handicaps. The idea that Jiraiya is in fact stronger or even his equal is a thought never propelled by J-man.

Also, where does Orochimaru have a natural advantage specifically over Jiraiya? 



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Their relationship is one of competition. A deadlock is a stalemate, a standoff- they are for all intents and purposes even, which is why you have the string of interchangeability including Ebisu's "against one of the Sannin another Sannin is needed" and the second databook's "are the only ones who can fight against the Sannin the Sannin themselves" which _imply the same thing the fanbook says straight up_ with "Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya _and_ Orochimaru".


Orochimaru and Jiraiya have never had a deadlock relationship.

Orochimaru is comfortable with the fact that he has historically been above Jiraiya, being considered the genius of the three man team. Naruto curses his own lack of strength in relation to Sasuke so we can only assume Jiraiya historically felt the same way. When Jiraiya told Naruto to forget about Sasuke, he immediately thought of the past with Orochimaru.



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Tsunade can't be every bit a match for _both_ of them if they themselves are not equals, and yet she is, necessitating that they _are_ equals.


Except she isn't. Nowhere in the primary manga canon is Tsunade stated to be equal to Jiraiya and Orochimaru.




			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Which is irrelevant.
> 
> We're talking about Jiraiya and Orochimaru here, and what _the way that statement is phrased_ implies for how _they_ compare.
> 
> It implies the same thing _for them_ regardless of who else exists on the planet that is capable of matching them.


Not necessarily. 

Orochimaru is the main villain and the strongest of the three ninjas. Another one of the three ninjas is the only other possibility to fight him. 

I fail to see where Ebisu's statement demands equality among the three ninjas.



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Deidara's complaint after capturing Gaara _(1)_.
> 
> Tsunade's orders for the Nijyu Shotai _(2)_.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right in the cases of Deidara vs. Gaara and Jiraiya talking about capturing vs. killing in chasing Itachi, however Jiraiya's case with Orochimaru identically mirrors Naruto's with Sasuke, a case where Naruto felt powerless. In these specific cases between best friends they have no other choice to win but to fight in order to kill.



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> No, because being able to win against someone isn't the same thing as being superior to them outright.


That depends on how one is able to win, the method as you shared in this case being Manda having a natural advantage over Gamabunta.

I'd consider a natural advantage over another a case of superiority in a fight.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 15, 2015)

Tsunade is fully capable of killing Oro. 
She defeated him when both had some issues. She was going to kill him with her midical jutsu had it not
been for Kabuto saving his ass. Taking those things with Oro, and leaving them when it against him is dishonesty. 

And just like how manda has natural advantage over Gamabunta, Katsuyu has it over manda.


----------



## Kai (Jul 15, 2015)

Question Hussain.

Was it a free for all between Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade or were Jiraiya and Tsunade on the same side?


----------



## Hexa (Jul 15, 2015)

Orochimaru has some degree of imperfect sage mode as well,
_Kabuto: However, he still did not have a body capable of withstanding that power. That's why... Not even he could become a perfect sage like me!_​We don't really get much details on what that entails, but the dialogue between Kabuto and Sasuke suggests that Orochimaru's true snake form is the result of his inability of his body to acclimate to sage mode perfectly like Kabuto did.  Plus, it fits the theme of the sage snake being a giant white snake and imperfect sage mode turning the user animal-like.
_Sasuke: you are a snake failure just like orochimaru, huh!
Kabuto:  [...] I am no longer a snake... The perfected power of a Sage has shed my snake skin... And transformed me into a dragon!!_​
Orochimaru's strongest jutsu (edo tensei withstanding) is the Yamata no Orochi. We didn't get to see much of, but from its description, it should be a crazy, powerful  technique.  I don't see how Jiraiya could deal with a gigantic, unkillable many-headed monster snake that's made of smaller, presumably also poisonous snakes.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 15, 2015)

Kai said:


> Question Hussain.
> 
> Was it a free for all between Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade or were Jiraiya and Tsunade on the same side?



Was Tsunade by herself against Oro by himself before that, or was Kabuto on his side? 

@Hexa

Oro was never able to achieve that. He only got the ability to give the CS to others because of Jugo's ability. Nothing more, nothing less. 



> I don't see how Jiraiya could deal with a gigantic, unkillable many-headed monster snake that's made of smaller, presumably also poisonous snakes.



How is it unkillable when it got killed? 
Jiraiya dealt with Pain's dog, which is much harder, and it's indeed "unkillable"
and it was many-headed as well, no? 

And all the dogs have shared vision as well.


----------



## Hexa (Jul 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Oro was never able to achieve that. He only got the ability to give the CS to others because of Jugo's ability. Nothing more, nothing less.


If by "that", you mean _perfected sage mode_, then yeah that's exactly what the manga says.  Orochimaru failed to achieve perfect sage mode due to him not having a body suited for it.  The implicature, though, of him failing to achieve _perfect_ sage mode is that he achieved it to some degree less than "perfect".

Definitely, he access to sage chakra since he was capable of applying the curse seal.  But that's as minimal as you can make it.



Hussain said:


> How is it unkillable when it got killed?


It didn't.  It's a transformation of Orochimaru, who was sealed.

Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi is bigger than Manda and is stated to be "more akin to a dragon" than a snake.  Pain's dog is difficult to kill, and put Gamaken on the back foot, but it's not on really on the same level in size or power.  A ninja  can ignore it (like Naruto just straight rode on top of it) and deal with the summoner if he can't seal it (or use Amaterasu, or probably a few other techniques will work as well).   For the Yamata no Orochi, the "summoner" is part of the unkillable thing that's huge, powerful, and made up of even more snakes.


----------



## ShadoLord (Jul 15, 2015)

I always view Jiraiya as the stronger one, incomplete as it may be, Jiraiya got Sage Mode while Orochimaru don't. That and the Itachi&Kisame's statement of being able to draw equal to Jiraiya while Orochimaru blatantly said that Itachi is above him.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

Kai said:


> The shoe consistently fits FR. Orochimaru being above Jiraiya when they were young; Orochimaru being above Jiraiya while both have mutual handicaps.


Orochimaru and Jiraiya are rivals, and therefore will be better than each others at different times. Orochimaru holding the advantage when they fought 16 Years ago [or whatever the nonsense time-line claims it to be] doesn't reflect on their current standings anymore than Sasuke being superior to Naruto at the Valley of the End, while later admitting in their final duel, that Naruto was usually ahead of him, and he was the one chasing Naruto. 

As far as their Sannin duel goes all Orochimaru says is that the "difference" between them remains, but never qualifies what he means by that. It is purely fan assumption that he is referring to strength, when in reality he could be referring to killer instinct, and Jiraiya's inability to really commit to killing him.  So given the original Japanese it's perfectly acceptable to read the line as even though they are handicapped a difference between them remains, because the difference something much deeper than strength, in the same regard that Naruto comments about how he can't beat Sasuke the way he is now, which we later learn wasn't a reference to strength at all, but something deeper. And certainly that would fit more than a declaration of a difference in strength, when Orochimaru was winning in part due to outside assistance. It also certainly conforms to Kishimoto's writing and why Jiraiya would not deny the difference between them as he acknowledges his weakness of being both unable to bring to bear the same killer instinct as Orochimaru, but at the same time being unable to save Orochimaru.

Though even taking it to mean strength, your constantly comparing Jiriaya and Orochimaru to Naruto and Sasuke in your posts, but your not acknowledging here how many times Sasuke made bullshit accusations about his and Naruto's strength that even he did not believe, and therefore based on the same criteria your drawing from to form your other points, it should be clear that the Sasuke rival's accusations are dubious at best.



> Orochimaru is comfortable with the fact that he has historically been above Jiraiya, being considered the genius of the three man team.


Orochimaru escapiing Jiraiya in a fight that we don't know the circumstances off, does not put him historically above Jiraiya. Thee only comments about their standings is that Itachi considered Jiraiya  a greater threat than Orochimaru and Jiraiya achieved greater mastery of Senjutsu than Orochimaru. 



> Naruto curses his own lack of strength in relation to Sasuke so we can only assume Jiraiya historically felt the same way.


If you wish to compare their relationship to Naruto and Sasuke, than I seriously fail to see how the conclusion is that Jiraiya is consistently weaker than Orochimaru. Sasuke himself admitted that Naruto was usually ahead of him and indeed Naruto was yet again ahead of him in their final duel. 



> Orochimaru is the main villain and the strongest of the three ninjas.


Come on Kai, that is soo Chunin Exams. In reality Orochimaru was the whipping boy of Uchiha, while Jiraiya had a much better showing against Pain-Rikudo than any in Orochimaru's career, and the same Uchiha who whipped Orochimaru's ass twice, showed great respect and caution over both Jiraiya himself as well as Senjutsu/Sennin Modo, which was Jiraiya's main ability. There is no question who was portrayed the most favorably among the Sannin, up until the point where the plot demanded Orochimaru be capable of summoning the Edo-Hokages.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 15, 2015)

You keep comparing Jiraiya & Orochimaru to Naruto & Sasuke, but I don't think that's the way to go. Naruto was supposed to be the successful version of Jiraiya who _succeeded_ in bringing Sasuke back to the village, unlike Jirayia himself who failed to "rescue" Orochimaru. 

Sasuke ran his mouth alot, but we _did_ get a fight between him & Naruto at the end. There was no such interaction between Jiraiya & Orochimaru. All of the interactions between them _in the entire story_ blatantly portray Orochimaru as the superior.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You keep comparing Jiraiya & Orochimaru to Naruto & Sasuke, but I don't think that's the way to go. Naruto was supposed to be the successful version of Jiraiya who _succeeded_ in bringing Sasuke back to the village, unlike Jirayia himself who failed to "rescue" Orochimaru.


I didn't bring up Naruto and Sasuke, Kai did. But if you don't think Jiraiya was suppose to be seen as a success given his accomplishments in the Pain Arc, your reading the story incorrectly anyway.



> Sasuke ran his mouth alot, but we did get a fight between him & Naruto at the end. There was no such interaction between Jiraiya & Orochimaru. All of the interactions between them in the entire story blatantly portray Orochimaru as the superior.


There was one interaction, 16 Years Ago that we don't know the circumstance of and another where Orochimaru got outside help. Nether portray PI/PII Jiriaya as inferior to PI Orochimaru. They just don't.



Hexa said:


> If by "that", you mean _perfected sage mode_,.


No the manga says his body couldn't handle that power. I.E. Sennin Modo, at all. So no he did not have imperfect SM. Never showed it. Never stated to have it. Just outright made up on your part.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I didn't bring up Naruto and Sasuke, Kai did. But if you don't think Jiraiya was suppose to be seen as a success given his accomplishments in the Pain Arc, your reading the story incorrectly anyway.



Jiraiya was always supposed to be seen as an incredibly powerful ninja (which his showing against Pain backs), but so was Orochimaru. And Tsunade for that matter, which is why their collective title is known throughout the world.

I'm not saying Jiraiya was a complete failure, but he consistently failed to bring Orochimaru back, while Naruto eventually succeeded in bringing Sasuke back. So, I wouldn't be surprised if Jiraiya was a bit worse than Orochimaru while Naruto was a bit better than Sasuke. 



Turrin said:


> There was one interaction, 16 Years Ago that we don't know the circumstance of and another where Orochimaru got outside help. Nether portray PI/PII Jiriaya as inferior to PI Orochimaru. They just don't.



I disagree. The flashback shows a collected Orochimaru calling a panting Jiraiya a pathetic fool, and we're given that flashback in the context of Jiraiya telling Naruto to give up on Sasuke. Imo, that's portraying Orochimaru as the superior.

Regardless, it _certainly_ doesn't portray Jiraiya as the superior, and I think they're relative equals with Orochimaru winning the match up game. As for Orochimaru having Kabuto's help, I went over this with you. Armless Orochimaru has access to things like WSM & Yamata no Orochimaru. He didn't _need_ Kabuto to do anything.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not saying Jiraiya was a complete failure, but he consistently failed to bring Orochimaru back, while Naruto eventually succeeded in bringing Sasuke back. So, I wouldn't be surprised if Jiraiya was a bit worse than Orochimaru while Naruto was a bit better than Sasuke.


Your shifting the goal post from Naruto is the successful Jiraiya, to Naruto succeeded in one aspect that Jiraiya didn't. But even before Naruto succeeded in bringing back Sasuke there were many times Naruto was stronger than Sasuke. So the point is moot.



> I disagree. The flashback shows a collected Orochimaru calling a panting Jiraiya a pathetic fool, and we're given that flashback in the context of Jiraiya telling Naruto to give up on Sasuke. Imo, that's portraying Orochimaru as the superior.


The context isn't about strength it's about how Jiraiya got hurt because he was trying to talk sense into Orochimaru and convince him to come back, and couldn't reach him.

Jiraiya, "Why...." "Why are you..." 

Jiraiya, "We were called the Sannin...were we not comrades since we were kids?"

Orochimaru, "Kukuku...to the bitter end your a naive fellow Jiraiya"

Orochimaru, "No matter what your thinking it's not enough"

Orochimaru, "Because your not aware of the things i've done..."

Jiraiya, "....Right now, your not thinking straight...Orochimaru..."

Orochimaru, "Ridiculous..." 

Orochimaru, "Your stupidity knows no limits"

As far as portraying Orochimaru as stronger goes, that doesn't mean shit. Jiraiya wasn't there to beat Orochimaru, but talk sense into him, that's why he isn't even using Sennin Modo there. But even assuming Orochimaru was stronger, it still would be just as meaningless as how Sasuke was "stronger" at the Valley of the End.



> ]Regardless, it certainly doesn't portray Jiraiya as the superior,


It's your argument for why Orochimaru is >= Jiraiya, my reasons for why Jiraiya is > P1-Orochimaru are totally unrelated to this. So what exactly are you arguing against here.



> and I think they're relative equals with Orochimaru winning the match up game. As for Orochimaru having Kabuto's help, I went over this with you. Armless Orochimaru has access to things like WSM & Yamata no Orochimaru. He didn't need Kabuto to do anything.


And I went over with you that if he can use his strongest Jutsu then he is vastly less handicapped than Jiraiya who couldn't even summon Gammabunta at that time. So your point is moot.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 15, 2015)

Snake>Toad.  Orochimaru wins.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 15, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Orochimaru has some degree of imperfect sage mode as well,
> _Kabuto: However, he still did not have a body capable of withstanding that power. That's why... Not even he could become a perfect sage like me!_​We don't really get much details on what that entails, but the dialogue between Kabuto and Sasuke suggests that Orochimaru's true snake form is the result of his inability of his body to acclimate to sage mode perfectly like Kabuto did.  Plus, it fits the theme of the sage snake being a giant white snake and imperfect sage mode turning the user animal-like.
> _Sasuke: you are a snake failure just like orochimaru, huh!
> Kabuto:  [...] I am no longer a snake... The perfected power of a Sage has shed my snake skin... And transformed me into a dragon!!_​
> Orochimaru's strongest jutsu (edo tensei withstanding) is the Yamata no Orochi. We didn't get to see much of, but from its description, it should be a crazy, powerful  technique.  I don't see how Jiraiya could deal with a gigantic, unkillable many-headed monster snake that's made of smaller, presumably also poisonous snakes.



All three Sannin are imperfect sages.  Orochimaru was an imperfect sage, so he developed the cursed seal, and his own variants on snake senjutsu.  He turned into a giant snake for failure to control it.  Jiraiya couldn't control it perfectly, so he fused with the toads.  He was slightly toady.  Tsunade lacked the stamina of Hashirama, so she developed chakra seal to store her chakra in order to use his jutsu.  All three have tattoos in their super modes, and two of them have animal transformations, with the third never being shown.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Snake>Toad.  Orochimaru wins.


Jiraiya >>>>>>>>> Orochimaru because in that same tale he gains the Namikirimaru sword by the end that puts him so far above Orochimaru in strength, that Orochimaru literally has no recourse but to commit suicide for fear off him. I mean since were treating the Jiraiya G?ketsu Monogatari as Naruto cannon 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> All three Sannin are imperfect sages.  Orochimaru was an imperfect sage, so he developed the cursed seal, and his own variants on snake senjutsu.  He turned into a giant snake for failure to control it.  Jiraiya couldn't control it perfectly, so he fused with the toads.  He was slightly toady.  Tsunade lacked the stamina of Hashirama, so she developed chakra seal to store her chakra in order to use his jutsu.  All three have tattoos in their super modes, and two of them have animal transformations, with the third never being shown.


Literally Orochimaru and Tsunade's have nothing to do with being imperfect Sennin.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 16, 2015)

I might re-arrange the order of these quotes when I respond, Kai.



Kai said:


> Except she isn't. Nowhere in the primary manga canon is Tsunade stated to be equal to Jiraiya and Orochimaru.



You shouldn't need her to be.

I disagree with your interpretation of what Orochimaru's comments actually imply, and say there are good reasons to continue thinking you're the one mistaken in the form of Kishimoto's sentiments elsewhere.

You're going to have to do more than say "manga > guidebooks" when the question is whose interpretation of the manga is correct and the guidebooks are  also authored by Kishimoto.

It doesn't matter whether or not one source is primary while the other is secondary if there's a consistent reading of both of them, and the content of the guidebooks doesn't inherently contradict the manga. Your interpretation of it maybe, but you could always be interpreting it incorrectly.

It's better to first consider whether or not your presumption might need to be revised before you just up and throw out something else stated in canon material as blatantly false.

At the very least, it seems lazy to just say the manga trumps the guidebooks so as to get out of even considering what's in the guidebooks.



> The shoe consistently fits FR. Orochimaru being above Jiraiya when they were young; Orochimaru being above Jiraiya while both have mutual handicaps. The idea that Jiraiya is in fact stronger or even his equal is a thought never propelled by J-man.



I don't think it does.

Hiruzen, who admitted that he probably wouldn't be able to stand up to Orochimaru, had people look for Jiraiya instead. Going by Ebisu's conversation with him (among other villagers' claims), the basis of that was that they were both members of the Sannin, which by definition only means much as the individuals who make up the trio.

Why appeal to that if not to point out that their strength was identical and Jiraiya was in actuality weaker than Orochimaru was?

He probably wouldn't have even bothered.



> Orochimaru and Jiraiya have never had a deadlock relationship.





> Also, where does Orochimaru have a natural advantage specifically over Jiraiya?



Snakes have the natural advantage over toads in the three-way-deadlock way of thinking.

The two are associated with those animals, and the chapter title of the climax of the battle between the Sannin was titled Sansukumi no Kōbō while the three were referred to as a Sansukumi again in Jiraiya's third databook profile.

You got a glimpse of it in the Search for Tsunade arc when Orochimaru temporarily knocked out Jiraiya with a trick that soon lead to him _getting knocked out_ temporarily by Tsunade.

Tsunade of course being associated with the slugs that boast an advantage over snakes, and yet are disadvantaged against the toads associated with _Jiraiya_, who not surprisingly said twice that if circumstances demanded it he'd kill Tsunade, even though she said she'd kill Orochimaru.

The implication is there.



> That depends on how one is able to win, the method as you shared in this case being Manda having a natural advantage over Gamabunta.
> 
> I'd consider a natural advantage over another a case of superiority in a fight.



I wouldn't.

I point you to how the tongue lashing worked out when used on Tsunade instead of Jiraiya.

Essentially the same thing. It's not necessarily the mark of being above the other person you're fighting.



> Orochimaru is the main villain and the strongest of the three ninjas.



Being the main villain doesn't mean anything. It demonstrably doesn't make him the strongest because he admitted that he was weaker than Itachi.

Repeating that he's the strongest of the three ninjas isn't an argument, _it's what we're arguing about._



> You're absolutely right in the cases of Deidara vs. Gaara and Jiraiya talking about capturing vs. killing in chasing Itachi, however Jiraiya's case with Orochimaru identically mirrors Naruto's with Sasuke, a case where Naruto felt powerless. In these specific cases between best friends they have no other choice to win but to fight in order to kill.



I don't get it.

"You're right in those cases, but they're best friends, so it doesn't count in these"? Is that it?

I don't see how the fact that they were friends makes those cases any different than the ones I just pointed out to you.

Jiraiya yelled at Naruto that friends don't injure their companions and his flashback involved him basically _pleading_ with Orochimaru to come back, after which he made the mental note that he _kept_ asking before he eventually accepted that Orochimaru wouldn't change his mind.

Excuse me if I don't think that sounds like they weren't fighting in order to kill, especially when even in the second Valley of the End fight Naruto said he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Actually he was concerned about Jiraiya, otherwise he wouldn't have tried to trick him and would have face him.  And no, Jiraiya was threatening Itachi and then Sasuke appears begging Jiraiya not to kill Itachi and saying shit like he has to face him or something like that.


Itachi didn't want to confront Jiraiya because he had no reason to. He was planning ot check on Naruto.
And when Jiraiya appeared, he didn't seem concerned or surprised at all.
He either anticipated it(Kisame suggested that they knew their diversion wouldn't hold Jiriaya off for long) or he simply didn't care.



> warning - Itachi did not look like he does not give a darn. Actually we have rarely seen Itachi so concerned
> 
> Jiraiya actually let them fight because he respected Sasuke's decision.


That look isn't concern, at best you can argue that he looked serious and thats probably because he realized Jiraiya knew what they were up to as Jiraiya was explaining it to him.

Itachi only looked concerned against Kabuto, because he knew Sasuke's safety was at stake. 



> He did not underestimated Itachi , he actually used like one of his strongest, if not strongest base Jutsu, a trap that was considered unescapable., yet Sage mode was still not worth to be used.



And he shat his pants when he saw Amaterasu bust a hole through it. Which means he underestimated Itachi.
And going back to my initial post, Asuma also thought he could take on Itachi and Kisame, just like Jiraiya.

Like I said, characters are prone to making IC mistakes, underestimating their opponent etc.
Jiraiya not using SM doesn't prove anything, especially when you consider that he failed to kill Itachi as he was claiming he could. 
That look on his face when he saw Amaterasu is him realizing that he had no shot @ defeating Itachi from the start, a guy who possesed a power he couldn't fully comprehend.



Hussain said:


> What do you mean "What? no." ?
> 
> See, there is notes in the first Databook that indicates the stats about the sound 5 for example is
> about their "normal" stats
> ...


You can't see that note with eye powers because eye powers don't increase stats 




> They are better than him in stamina, but they don't have near everything else like Jiraiya does.


So you admit that stamina alone isn't an indicator of superiorty.



> Jiraiya has better Ninjutsu than itachi,


Ninjutsu stat refers to how proficient and knowledgeable you are in that area. 
It doesn't account in arsenal. 
And when you account in arsenal, Itachi has Amaterasu and Susano'o and Jiraiya doesn't have any jutsu that even remotely comes close to those.



> and aside from the Genjutsu, the other 2 is by a really little different (I doubt handseal is even relevant to be honest. ).


It means Jiraiya isn't as proficient and knowledgeable as Itachi in handseals, and his movements and reflexes aren't as fast as Itachi's.

Genjutsu is just a whole spectrum of ninja art Itachi is massively superior to Jiraiya.


> I did not say he is "equal" in the stats, I admitted there is a little differences


I thought you implied otherwise when you grouped Jiraiya "with Itachi."



> I am talking about SM Jiraiya outclassing itachi in those stats however. I don't think you will deny the SM boost to those stuff, will you?



SM would allow him to outclass Itachi in strength and nothing else.
Itachi'd still have 4 superior stats, maybe 3 if you think Jiraiya'd hit tier 5 in speed with SM boost.

But then Itachi's MS makes that superiority meaningless through the arsenal it grants him.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You can't see that note with eye powers because eye powers don't increase stats


Actually the Data-book specifically notes that they do increase stats:


----------



## The Undying (Jul 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Actually the Data-book specifically notes that they do increase stats:



Interestingly, it also implies that advanced Doujutsu powers like Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan are a part of its user's _base_ repertoire (at least as far as the statgrams are concerned) since DB1 confirmed the stats only account for a shinobi's "normal state".

Just a neat little observation.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2015)

It mentions growth. As in sharingan allows him to learn/copy and master techniques faster.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 16, 2015)

True, but that was always a property of the base Sharingan. 

_"Now that he has awakened the Mangekyou, his numbers are bound to grow even more."_

If you believe that this quote speaks towards Sasuke's ability to copy techniques using the Sharingan, then "now that he has awakened the Manegkyou" shouldn't be there.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2015)

MS gives better perception, so I guess it is another way of saying MS does what sharingan can do better.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It mentions growth. As in sharingan allows him to learn/copy and master techniques faster.


It says now that he has Mangekyo Sharingan his stats will increase. Considering Mangekyo does not grant copy abilities, the normal Sharingan does, that excuse makes no sense. 

How the stats are recored are not a hard concept to grasp. Innate physical abilities like Kekkai Genkai, are accounted for in a person's stats. Enhancements granted by Jutsu, are not outside off the characters' mastery of a specific Jutsu adding to their Ninjutsu stat. Summons and other entities powers such as Bijuu are also not accounted for in a person's stats, because their abilities are their own. 

Simply put Sharingan/Byakugan/MS/EMS/Rinnegan count for all stats they are pertinent to just like ones physical conditioning count for all stats that is pertinent to. SM counts for the users Ninjutsu mastery just like any other Jutsu, but it's increases to other areas aren't recorded anymore than any other Jutsu's increases are recorded to other areas. And Nether would Shima and Fusaku's abilities be recorded for Jiraiya.

Or to put it another way Jiraiya's Summons and Sennin Modo abilities are not accounted for in his stats, while Itachi's Sharingan is accounted for in his stats. In fairness though Susano'o's abilities aren't accounted for Itachi's stats ether.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It says now that he has Mangekyo Sharingan his stats will increase. Considering Mangekyo does not grant copy abilities, the normal Sharingan does, that excuse makes no sense.
> 
> How the stats are recored are not a hard concept to grasp. Innate physical abilities like Kekkai Genkai, are accounted for in a person's stats. Enhancements granted by Jutsu, are not outside off the characters' mastery of a specific Jutsu adding to their Ninjutsu stat. Summons and other entities powers such as Bijuu are also not accounted for in a person's stats, because their abilities are their own.
> 
> ...



I just don't see how Sharingan increases stats passively. Maybe it factors in as proficiency ? I really don't know. 

But the page you posted is a comparison page of character stats from DB 2 to DB3 and it says "now that he has MS, his stats are bound to grow more" Referring to the next databook.

What I understand from that is, MS will aid/amp his progress, rather than a passive stat increase.

Though I could be be wrong.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 16, 2015)

It is weird though. Sharingan Sasuke is only 3.5 in taijutsu, yet Sharingan alone pretty much makes you a taijutsu beast in regards to reading and anticipating attacks.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I just don't see how Sharingan increases stats passively. Maybe it factors in as proficiency ? I really don't know.
> 
> But the page you posted is a comparison page of character stats from DB 2 to DB3 and it says "now that he has MS, his stats are bound to grow more" Referring to the next databook.
> 
> ...


MS doesn't amp or aid someone's progress it outright grants them the proficiency to use hax Genjutsu and Ninjutsu techniques. That's a passive increase to ones skill w/o the need for training or any growth. Like wise Three-Tome enhances someone and increase in speed, just by being active. 



Rocky said:


> It is weird though. Sharingan Sasuke is only 3.5 in taijutsu, yet Sharingan alone pretty much makes you a taijutsu beast in regards to reading and anticipating attacks.



That's because speed is a separate stat and it's speed that Three-Tome enhances. Unlike in the case of Mangekyo-Sharingan, which actually directly grants a person the proficiency necessary to cast higher end Ninjutsu and Genjutsu techniques, Three-Tome does not bestow the ability to innately pull out hax Taijutsu techniques out of their hat. It aids a person in hand-to-hand combat, but by enhancing a person's speed.

That's why Sasuke's Taijutsu stat does not rise between DBI and DBII despite gaining Three Tome, but his Speed stat goes up an entire tier tier, despite the fact that between DBI and DBII, he sat ether in the hospital or a barrel the entire time, leading up to the Naruto vs Sasuke battle, doing nothing that would increase his speed other than gaining Three-Tome.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 16, 2015)

Jiraiya can neutralize any Edo Tensei by trapping them in his toad gourd, removing them from the battlefield. Gamarinsho would also be effective, and it might catch Orochimaru as well; however, Orochimaru is a Fuuton user, and we saw Temari counter Tayuya's sound-based Genjutsu with her Fuuton, so it's at least plausible that Orochimaru can protect himself.

Oro can match Sage Mode's raw muscle with the sheer mass of his Yamata no Jutsu. Manda can handle Gamabunta, although Orochimaru's other snakes aren't really up to the task of handling Gamaken and Gamahiro, so Manda would be overwhelmed if Orochimaru can't amass enough large snakes to back him up adequately. Oro's Edo Tensei can definitely compensate, at least until Jiraiya can get rid of them. In Sage Mode, Jiraiya has the two elder sages for backup.

Then there are also Orochimaru's true form, the blood vapors that Jiraiya most likely doesn't know about, and Fushi Tensei. So even if it's possible that Jiraiya will overwhelm Orochimaru through force, there's still a good chance Oro can turn the tables at the end.

This match is tough to call, and they've always been rivals by portrayal. Could go either way, although Orochimaru's beaten Jiraiya twice in-series under purportedly fair conditions.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It is weird though. Sharingan Sasuke is only 3.5 in taijutsu, yet Sharingan alone pretty much makes you a taijutsu beast in regards to reading and anticipating attacks.





Turrin said:


> That's because speed is a separate stat and it's speed that Three-Tome enhances.



All Sharingan does is predict movement; that increases the user's window of reaction time, but it does nothing to his or her movement speed or martial prowess (Taijutsu).

Its effects would not be reflected in any stat.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> MS doesn't amp or aid someone's progress it outright grants them the proficiency to use hax Genjutsu and Ninjutsu techniques[


If that was true then Sasuke'd start off by Stage 4 Susano'o just as soon as he gained MS.
He progressed from bottom to the top.



> . That's a passive increase to ones skill w/o the need for training or any growth.


The databook contradicts that notion though, it says Sasuke's stats will grow even further. 



> Like wise Three-Tome enhances someone and increase in speed, just by being active.



Technically it is not a speed increase, it is precognition that allows you to react beforehand. 
This was noted in the chuunin exam arc when Lee was observing Sasuke's fight against Gaara.

I just think Databook is referring to the potential of growth due to having a higher form of sharingan.

Just like how Nagato was able to master all chakra natures due to Rinnegan @ a younger age.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> True, but that was always a property of the base Sharingan.
> 
> _"Now that he has awakened the Mangekyou, his numbers are bound to grow even more."_
> 
> If you believe that this quote speaks towards Sasuke's ability to copy techniques using the Sharingan, then "now that he has awakened the Manegkyou" shouldn't be there.



It does.  Sasuke's base abilities improved by means of doujutsu upgrades.

It does him no good to see Madara's Limbo clones if he couldn't react to them or clash with them.  Otherwise it would be like giving someone with Academy Sakura abilities Rinnegan.  Great abilities you can't utilize before a chunin lethally punches you in the face.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya >>>>>>>>> Orochimaru Namikirimaru Orochimaru Orochimaru Jiraiya G?ketsu Monogatari as Naruto


----------



## Rocky (Jul 16, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> All Sharingan does is predict movement; that increases the user's window of reaction time, but it does nothing to his or her movement speed or martial prowess (Taijutsu).
> 
> Its effects would not be reflected in any stat.



Predicting movement is a facet of "martial prowess." An extremely important one.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 16, 2015)

It is, but it falls more under reactions and speed than refinement and efficacy of movement, which the taijutsu stat refers to.  When Sasuke fought Bee, he could perceive his sword play, and his speed was roughly equal, but his actual sword skill was too far below Bee to keep up.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 16, 2015)

"His number are bound to grow even more." The Sharingan aids growth, not stats themselves. Sasuke's MS (likely all MS) increases perception according to Madara (and chakra potency.)

Plus if you think Kakashi without his Sharingan has a 3.5 in speed then you're a tool. The Sharingan itself is not factored into stats, but does help ninja increase their proficiency and knowledge.​


----------



## Rocky (Jul 16, 2015)

I think the problem with B was the unpredictability of the style. Sasuke's Sharingan could not get a read on B's unorthodox movements.

What the Sharingan does is largely remove reflex speed from the equation. You don't have to wait for the attack to fully happen before you begin responding to it because a picture is painted in your head right when it starts. 

I'll admit that I could be wrong. This is another matter in the story that's not explained very well imo.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think the problem with B was the unpredictability of the style. Sasuke's Sharingan could not get a read on B's unorthodox movements.



Sasuke simply couldn't keep up because B's sword style is simply too overwhelming, too many attacks coming at once. Even if he can see all of them, he has only 1 sword, he can't deflect all of  them. Even if he does to certain extent, he can't find a window to counter attack because his hands are full and he'll eventually get overwhelmed, which is exactly what happened.



> What the Sharingan does is largely remove reflex speed from the equation. *You don't have to wait for the attack to fully happen before you begin responding to it because a picture is painted in your head right when it starts*.



That is exactly what sharingan does. 



> I'll admit that I could be wrong. This is another matter in the story that's not explained very well imo.


Are  you referring to precog or databook stats ? Because to me sharingan is explained quite well, we've been given visual hints and literal explanations in more than one occasion.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jul 16, 2015)

Always thought that Sasuke's DB1 -> DB2 growth was mainly from Cursed Seal mastery.


----------



## Kai (Jul 16, 2015)

Responding to this bit Turrin since your other points mirror FR's.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> As far as their Sannin duel goes all Orochimaru says is that the "difference" between them remains, but never qualifies what he means by that. It is purely fan assumption that he is referring to strength, when in reality he could be referring to killer instinct, and Jiraiya's inability to really commit to killing him.  So given the original Japanese it's perfectly acceptable to read the line as even though they are handicapped a difference between them remains, because the difference something much deeper than strength, in the same regard that Naruto comments about how he can't beat Sasuke the way he is now, which we later learn wasn't a reference to strength at all, but something deeper. And certainly that would fit more than a declaration of a difference in strength, when Orochimaru was winning in part due to outside assistance. It also certainly conforms to Kishimoto's writing and why Jiraiya would not deny the difference between them as he acknowledges his weakness of being both unable to bring to bear the same killer instinct as Orochimaru, but at the same time being unable to save Orochimaru.


If we only peeked into Orochimaru's side of things, then perhaps it could be ambiguous. On Jiraiya's end he even still holds some level of regret being unable to stop Orochimaru when Naruto talks about Sasuke. When Naruto couldn't stop Sasuke, he *cursed his own lack of strength.* He didn't say "I couldn't bring myself to kill Sasuke." 

We're to believe a younger Jiraiya felt identically to Naruto at the end of Part 1.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Though even taking it to mean strength, your constantly comparing Jiriaya and Orochimaru to Naruto and Sasuke in your posts, but your not acknowledging here how many times Sasuke made bullshit accusations about his and Naruto's strength that even he did not believe, and therefore based on the same criteria your drawing from to form your other points, it should be clear that the Sasuke rival's accusations are dubious at best.


This is fallacious thinking because we have never seen Orochimaru make bullshit accusations about Jiraiya's strength, nor have we witnessed Orochimaru feel any inferior complex by Jiraiya's developments.

Orochimaru is comfortable with the history that he has always been above Jiraiya.



FlamingRain said:


> You shouldn't need her to be.
> 
> I disagree with your interpretation of what Orochimaru's comments actually imply, and say there are good reasons to continue thinking you're the one mistaken in the form of Kishimoto's sentiments elsewhere.
> 
> ...


Well first off, I don't need her to be equal to Jiraiya nor Orochimaru because my argument doesn't hinge on the idea that the Sannin are all equal with one another.

What we have seen, however, are hype tools for both J-man and Orochimaru in the manga that don't welcome Tsunade in the same level of discussion.




			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> I don't think it does.
> 
> Hiruzen, who admitted that he probably wouldn't be able to stand up to Orochimaru, had people look for Jiraiya instead. Going by Ebisu's conversation with him (among other villagers' claims), the basis of that was that they were both members of the Sannin, which by definition only means much as the individuals who make up the trio.
> 
> ...


Hiruzen expressed that Orochimaru was most likely above even himself in strength, yet he was the best possible match against him in strength and it took an epic battle for him to lose.

Just because Ebisu stated Jiraiya was the best possible match as a fellow Sannin doesn't demand equality in their strength. Orochimaru was, for all intents and purposes, the top of the Sannin and the potential succeor as hyped by Hiruzen during their fight. All Ebisu was saying was that a Sannin was the best possible hope against Orochimaru, and given the village's dire situation that was absolutely true.

Again, equality was not a necessary tip given how urgent matters were in the village.



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Snakes have the natural advantage over toads in the three-way-deadlock way of thinking.
> 
> The two are associated with those animals, and the chapter title of the climax of the battle between the Sannin was titled Sansukumi no Kōbō while the three were referred to as a Sansukumi again in Jiraiya's third databook profile.
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, as soon as Tsunade recovered from her hemophobia, she was the strongest Sannin member on the battlefield as her handicap was removed while the other two were still suffering from their deficits. 

Other than that, I don't recall any implication in the manga that Tsunade is stronger than Orochimaru, let alone so by "natural advantage." For someone as daunting to the plot as Orochimaru was, Tsunade being the best possible match against Orochimaru would have been made just as clear to the readers as a potential foil to the main villain. Reality is she's inferior to both Jiraiya and Orochimaru in strength, given the other two's later developments and their assembly of hype tools that Tsunade 




			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> I wouldn't.
> 
> I point you to how the tongue lashing worked out when used on Tsunade instead of Jiraiya.
> 
> Essentially the same thing. It's not necessarily the mark of being above the other person you're fighting.


Since the Sannin's introductions through Hiruzen/Jiraiya's flashbacks, we were never invited to the idea that the Sannin were equal in strength. Orochimaru was portrayed as the strongest member of the Sannin and potential successor to Hiruzen that turned dark.

What Pain later emphasizes about the Sannin depicts their stature: They all have unique abilities that make them worthy as one of the "three ninjas." quality among them 





			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Being the main villain doesn't mean anything. It demonstrably doesn't make him the strongest because he admitted that he was weaker than Itachi.


Again, in the context of the three ninjas it does imply he's the strongest as Jiraiya is part of that tie. Itachi's plot line is a completely separate matter that involves Sasuke's development for the future. Orochimaru is merely a stepping stone in that plot line. 



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> I don't get it.
> 
> "You're right in those cases, but they're best friends, so it doesn't count in these"? Is that it?
> 
> ...


It's not the fact that they truly don't desire to kill their friends; it's the fact that they have to aim to kill in order to win even if that's not what they truly intend to do.

Taka vs. Killer B is a prime example of discarding that mentality in order to win, even without wanting to actually kill the target. Kakashi stated during the bell test the three students had to come at him like they were aiming to kill him or else they stood no chance at getting the bells.

A fight between best friends demands they fight like they're killing each other even if that's not what they truly want in their hearts.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 16, 2015)

Kai said:


> Well first off, I don't need her to be equal to Jiraiya nor Orochimaru because my argument doesn't hinge on the idea that the Sannin are all equal with one another.



You're arguing that Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya.

But if somebody is stated to be equal to _both_ Orochimaru _and_ Jiraiya, he cannot be.

Such is what makes sense out of the individual Sannin being referred to primarily by their status as one of those three, because if Orochimaru actually stood above the others, it's bizarre that everyone speaks as though their respect for his strength is a result of his being one of those _three_.

Nobody in their right mind read Ebisu's sentence for the first time and failed to think the intent behind it was to place Jiraiya right there with Orochimaru in strength, and given Kishimoto's sentiment in the fanbook later the intent just became that much _more obvious_ for anybody who amazingly managed to miss it the first time, especially for when a similar statement was given again in the next databook.



> What we have seen, however, are hype tools for both J-man and Orochimaru in the manga that don't welcome Tsunade in the same level of discussion.



What are you even referring to here?



> Just to be clear, as soon as Tsunade recovered from her hemophobia, she was the strongest Sannin member on the battlefield as her handicap was removed while the other two were still suffering from their deficits.



Tsunade's handicap was being out of practice. That's what Jiraiya mentioned after he was drugged and what Kabuto was awed by during his scuffle with her.

Overcoming her hemophobia didn't do anything about _that_. It removed her restriction on summoning, but Kabuto's presence removed Orochimaru's.

Orochimaru could have pulled that trick when she still had her phobia and he'd have gotten a fist to his face all the same, since there was no blood involved there.



> Other than that, I don't recall any implication in the manga that Tsunade is stronger than Orochimaru, let alone so by "natural advantage." For someone as daunting to the plot as Orochimaru was, Tsunade being the best possible match against Orochimaru would have been made just as clear to the readers as a potential foil to the main villain.



Might be something to be said about her becoming the Hokage and protector of the village when Orochimaru swore to get back his arms and destroy it, if you're looking for foils...but my entire point is that there is nothing in the manga that necessarily needs to be taken as an implication that one Sannin is stronger than another, so it hardly matters.

Plot relevance has nothing to do with strength, or we'd have seen Sakumo and Izuna actually do something relevant.



> What Pain later emphasizes about the Sannin depicts their stature: They all have unique abilities that make them worthy as one of the "three ninjas." quality among them



It's no coincidence that those unique abilities are linked to the equally revered legendary regions.



> Again, in the context of the three ninjas it does imply he's the strongest as Jiraiya is part of that tie.



No...it doesn't. _Naruto_ is not even one of those stories where the villain has to be the strongest up until the main character peaks, and to make it worse Orochimaru's not even the strongest villain.

There's nothing wrong with people being equal to the main villain.



> It's not the fact that they truly don't desire to kill their friends; it's the fact that they have to aim to kill in order to win even if that's not what they truly intend to do.



Sasuke made his comment _because of how Naruto attacked_, which is representative of the fact that he was not even aiming for the kill, which is why Naruto clarified that he wasn't trying to do it (not just that he didn't want to do it).


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> Responding to this bit Turrin since your other points mirror FR's.
> 
> 
> If we only peeked into Orochimaru's side of things, then perhaps it could be ambiguous. On Jiraiya's end he even still holds some level of regret being unable to stop Orochimaru when Naruto talks about Sasuke. When Naruto couldn't stop Sasuke, he *cursed his own lack of strength.* He didn't say "I couldn't bring myself to kill Sasuke."
> ...


First off I was talking about the Sannin duel, here you seam to be talking about the Jiraiya vs Orochimaru flashback. To which your wrong, it was never about Naruto cursing his lack of strength, in-fact he never said that once, it was about Naruto and Jiraiya not being able to persuade Sasuke and Orochimaru respectively into coming back from the darkside, and the fact that attempting to do so only brought them hardships.



> This is fallacious thinking because we have never seen Orochimaru make bullshit accusations about Jiraiya's strength, nor have we witnessed Orochimaru feel any inferior complex by Jiraiya's developments.


If Orochimaru is saying he was stronger than Jiriaya because he was winning in the Sannin, like your saying he was asserting, that is a BS accurastion, because he had Kabuto's help and therefore the handicapps weren't equal.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If that was true then Sasuke'd start off by Stage 4 Susano'o just as soon as he gained MS.
> He progressed from bottom to the top.


Sasuke did not have to train to use any of the MS Techs. He activated them in response to emotional stimulus causing the cerebral chakra that Tobirama speaks off to increase. The fact that he did not have to train tells you that MS increased his proficiency.



> The databook contradicts that notion though, it says Sasuke's stats will grow even further.


No it doesn't because again the DB records performance. Sasuke had yet to fight with MS.



> Technically it is not a speed increase, it is precognition that allows you to react beforehand.
> This was noted in the chuunin exam arc when Lee was observing Sasuke's fight against Gaara.


Which increases someone's reaction time which is part of the speed stat, or do you care to explain how Sasuke's speed stat went up a tier between DBI and DBII, despite him not doing any training?



> I just think Databook is referring to the potential of growth due to having a higher form of sharingan.


How does Mangekyo help potential growth?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke did not have to train to use any of the MS Techs. He activated them in response to emotional stimulus causing the cerebral chakra that Tobirama speaks off to increase. The fact that he did not have to train tells you that MS increased his proficiency.



I do agree that MS increases his proficiency, but nothing is taken for granted. 
Sasuke's training was basically field practice. He first awakened those powers, and then used them and got better with them during the course of the fight. 



> No it doesn't because again the DB records performance. Sasuke had yet to fight with MS.


Exactly, thats why it was talking about Sasuke's potential growth in the next databook.

If you notice, the picture of Sasuke in that page is the one with the cursed seal and all of his feats and jutsu in the databook are Hebi Sasuke's. 

"he'll even grow further" is a reference to the next databook.



> Which increases someone's reaction time which is part of the speed stat, or do you care to explain how Sasuke's speed stat went up a tier between DBI and DBII, despite him not doing any training?



The same way Kakashi increased half tier in intelligence, taijutsu and speed during the same amount of time. 
Coz he is a genius or off panel training.

And for the sake of the argument, lets say we attributed his half tier jump in speed to sharingan.
How are you going to explain his whole tier jump in strength(from 2 to 3) then ? Thats sharingan too ?



> How does Mangekyo help potential growth?



Like you said, by increasing proficiency, by allowing him to understand and learn techniques better/faster etc.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

Why is itachi beign mentioned in this thread. eurgh hate the trolling

In any case jiriaya would loose simply because he doesnt have any way of putting orochimaru down bar using frog call to paralyze orochimaru mind then seal orochimaru 

orochimaru can kill jiriaiya through basic things like snake bites or kusanagi strikes.

also yamata>>any summon jiriaya has. though Yomi numa could as well sink it. 

this will be decided by the little things more than powerful jutsu. 

Regardless of how shitty snake hands is. all orochimaru needs to do is land 1 bite and he wins


----------



## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

> Why is itachi beign mentioned in this thread. eurgh hate the trolling



The whole thing between Oro/Jiraiya/itachi threads is based on those statements. That's why in any thread
2 of those characters involve, the other gets dragged on automatically, either to downplay one, or to overrate the
other. 



> In any case jiriaya would loose simply because he doesnt have any way of putting orochimaru down bar using frog call to paralyze orochimaru mind then seal orochimaru



Actually Oro can die. I don't know why people think there is no way of killing him. Tsunade was going to kill him with her jutsu.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I do agree that MS increases his proficiency, but nothing is taken for granted.
> Sasuke's training was basically field practice. He first awakened those powers, and then used them and got better with them during the course of the fight.
> .


What did he practice in the field to improve with MS? Right after awakening MS he is able to cast MS-Genjutsu. Than w/o trianing anything related to Amaterasu or it's mechanics in the field or otherwise, he is immediately able to cast Amaterasu in response to the emotional stimulus of Team Taka being wiped out. Than immediately in response to Karin being on fire, he turns the flames off. Than at the start of the Kages arc he's immediately able to use Rib-Cage Susano'o and Enton. I guess you could say he trained off panel, but the implication of Sasuke saying there is something he wanted to try out, implies that he never attempted it prior to fighting Ei. From there every Susano'o form awakens in rapid succession to emotional stimuli not Sasuke. You could argue he trained in battle with Susano'o, but given that each form awakens due to emotional stimuli I find the insanely brief period of usage to be the unlikely reason for the awakening and find the emotional stimuli to be the much more likely cause.

So yeah I don't see any indication that MS didn't just increase his proficiency automatically.



> Exactly, thats why it was talking about Sasuke's potential growth in the next databook.
> 
> If you notice, the picture of Sasuke in that page is the one with the cursed seal and all of his feats and jutsu in the databook are Hebi Sasuke's.
> 
> "he'll even grow further" is a reference to the next databook.


I never disputed that. What I dispute is that Mangekyo isn't giving him passive increases to his stats. They just aren't recorded yet because Sasuke hadn't used MS yet.



> And for the sake of the argument, lets say we attributed his half tier jump in speed to sharingan.
> How are you going to explain his whole tier jump in strength(from 2 to 3) then ? Thats sharingan too ?


That's fair enough, I can't explain it, because the dude was in a hospital or a barrel the entire time. Well perhaps his physical abilities increased passively just thanks to undergoing the whole CS evolution thing, even outside of CS. But that's all I got.



> Like you said, by increasing proficiency, by allowing him to understand and learn techniques better/faster etc.


So if that's the case than a person's Ninjutsu and Genjutsu stats would rise just from getting Mangekyo.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The whole thing between Oro/Jiraiya/itachi threads is based on those statements. That's why in any thread
> 2 of those characters involve, the other gets dragged on automatically, either to downplay one, or to overrate the
> other.
> 
> ...



 
what jutsu is that?

also believing she can kill isnt the same as her actually being able to 

or itachi would have died to toad mouth trap 

jiriaya got nothing to kill orochimaru with. whats he goign to do rasengan?


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2015)

I honestly think that if Oro's totally hit with Senpo: Goemon, the man is going to suffer, and who knows if die.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> what jutsu is that?
> 
> also believing she can kill isnt the same as her actually being able to
> 
> ...



Her medical Ninjutsu has enough chakra to kill him. That's why Kabuto protected him. Oro himself
admitted that. He also admitted that Katsuyu's acid can kill him.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I honestly think that if Oro's totally hit with Senpo: Goemon, the man is going to suffer, and who knows if die.


Anything that eliminates Orochimaru's body completely is going to work, which is why Katsuya's Acid works. So Senpo Goemon, Toad Gourd Barrier Seal Acid Lake, and Gama Yu Endan, are all going to kill Orochimaru. Than Jiraiya has a number of techniques that bypass durability like his Shadow Techniques and Frog Song. It's a complete myth that Jiraiya would struggle with Orochimaru's durability, predicated on the continued myth of Slug > Snake > Toad > Slug relationship, which comes from a failed understanding of the Kabuki play about Jiraiya, where that was initially the case, but than Jiraiya eventually becomes so much stronger than Orochimaru, that Orochimaru fucking commits suicide rather than facing him.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Her medical Ninjutsu has enough chakra to kill him. That's why Kabuto protected him. Oro himself
> admitted that. He also admitted that Katsuyu's acid can kill him.




scans please

her medical ninjutsu has enough chakra to kill a sick and dying orochimaru. maybe though no scans to subtantiate that it meant anymore than she had the intention to kill him

so wait kabuto protected him from death. does that mean her jutsu couldnt kill kabuto?

because what can kill orochimaru will kill kabuto several times over 

no he told katsuyu u can kill me if you want. how does that imply katsuyu actually cant..and doesnt just mean you can go on the offensive if i dont do as you say 

if we are going to go with such statements then itachi tskuyomi can kill....

tsunade cant be killed

nothign can kill orochimaru but a BD since thats the only thing he himself actually stated he could die if it hits him

obviously not true but if we are to use BS statements orochimaru still comes out on top


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

@turrin those techniques you imply can kill orochimaru are all countered by orochimaru bar frog call with utmost ease

goemon. lol summon a snake and let it die or yamata

same for acid in toad gourd prison 

so i dont really see how goemon is being mentioned as something that orochimaru has to worry about.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)




----------



## Duhul10 (Jul 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @turrin those techniques you imply can kill orochimaru are all countered by orochimaru bar frog call with utmost ease
> 
> goemon. lol summon a snake and let it die or yamata
> 
> ...



          How many snakes does he have ? Jiraiya can make an entire lake of an oil hotter than lava which will surely melt every snake Oro has, not to say that if it touches him, things like Oral rebirth will do shit when you are covered in an entire lake of that killing liquid .
          Frog call brings an end to him, because after that Jiraiya can continue with Sotu / Goemon


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

yh. and gaara thought he would loose to genin lee. we all know how he ended up unharmed from that fight

orochimaru saying you can kill me with your acid doesnt mean he cant defend against it. he easily will


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> How many snakes does he have ? Jiraiya can make an entire lake of an oil hotter than lava which will surely melt every snake Oro has, not to say that if it touches him, things like Oral rebirth will do shit when you are covered in an entire lake of that killing liquid .
> Frog call brings an end to him, because after that Jiraiya can continue with Sotu / Goemon



himself(yamata). Aoda, manda, the 1000 little ones he spat out and every other fodder sleeve snake that are easily 3 times his size. 

manda can use his skin shedding technique to not only survive it but escape it all together 

so yh it isnt hot oil thats killing orochimaru. its funny to think that. 

or if you think goemon is such a threat...funny as that is. sanju rashomon. he spreads the oil far away from him. simply put 

now unless u want to use speculation and fan hype jiriaya cant control his oil to bend round the gates to burn orochimaru who simply need jump on rashomon makign it a moot point


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)

@Icegaze

This is why I never respond to you, because you consistently shift the goal post. First you say Jiraiya's got nothing to kill Orochimaru with, and than everyone shows you otherwise. Than you shift the goal post to, well Orochimaru won't just stand there and take the attack, he'll attempt tot defend himself, something no one ever doubted. Rather what everyone was pointing out to you was very simply that Jiraiya does have moves that can kill Orochimaru, if they land.  Of course Orochimaru will try to defend himself from being killed and the questions than becomes whether Jiraiya can land his killing blow before Orochimaru lands his, but that's inherently different than claiming Jiraiya literally has nothing that can kill Orochimaru.

As far as Orochimaru's ability to defend goes, he can defend Base-Jiraiya's attacks, but I seriously doubt he's defending Sennin Modo Jiraiya's attacks. If SM Jiraiya can get off Toad Gourd Barrier Seal when up against 6 Paths of Pain and down 1 arm, I have a hard time imagining he'll have trouble trapping Orochimaru with it; and Kuchyiose sure did not help Animal Realm counter the Acid Lake, so I doubt it's helping Orochimaru. As far as Goemon and Shadow manipulation go, the fact of the matter is SM-Jiraiya is much faster and more skilled at CQC than Orochimaru, plus he has more chakra to utilizes KB to help distract and corner Orochimaru, so to me the chances of Jiraiya touching Orochimaru's shadow or hitting him with Goemon before Orochimaru can put up an adequate defense are certainly much higher than zero. Like wise considering SM-Jiraiya great superiority to Orochimaru in many different regards, I have a very hard time believing he will be incapable of holding Orochimaru off long enough to use Frog-Song, which once Orochimaru is ensnared he can than end him with anyone of the Jutsu I listed in my previous post.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> This is why I never respond to you, because you consistently shift the goal post. First you say Jiraiya's got nothing to kill Orochimaru with, and than everyone shows you otherwise. Than you shift the goal post to, well Orochimaru won't just stand there and take the attack, he'll attempt tot defend himself, something no one ever doubted. Rather what everyone was pointing out to you was very simply that Jiraiya does have moves that can kill Orochimaru, if they land.  Of course Orochimaru will try to defend himself from being killed and the questions than becomes whether Jiraiya can land his killing blow before Orochimaru lands his, but that's inherently different than claiming Jiraiya literally has nothing that can kill Orochimaru.



. if he can easily defend then why bring it up as possible ways to kill him

a kunai can kill jiriaya as well. you dont have me mentioning that as ways to kill jiraiya. 

u never respond cuz u get ur feelings hurt. despite me always being polite to you

call it a i like my opinions better than everyone else's complex

i guess we shoudl all start mentioning kunai's as possible ways of killing 90% of the verse then



> As far as Orochimaru's ability to defend goes, he can defend Base-Jiraiya's attacks, but I seriously doubt he's defending Sennin Modo Jiraiya's attacks. If SM Jiraiya can get off Toad Gourd Barrier Seal when up against 6 Paths of Pain and down 1 arm, I have a hard time imagining he'll have trouble trapping Orochimaru with it; and Kuchyiose sure did not help Animal Realm counter the Acid Lake, so I doubt it's helping Orochimaru. As far as Goemon and Shadow manipulation go, the fact of the matter is SM-Jiraiya is much faster and more skilled at CQC than Orochimaru, plus he has more chakra to utilizes KB to help distract and corner Orochimaru, so to me the chances of Jiraiya touching Orochimaru's shadow or hitting him with Goemon before Orochimaru can put up an adequate defense are certainly much higher than zero. Like wise considering SM-Jiraiya great superiority to Orochimaru in many different regards, I have a very hard time believing he will be incapable of holding Orochimaru off long enough to use Frog-Song, which once Orochimaru is ensnared he can than end him with anyone of the Jutsu I listed in my previous post.



why do u doubt it. provide reasoning. just curious, hope it wont be like the sasori vs A post. where sasori scratches him without any thing to go on

he will most certainly trap oro in it if he tried. orochimaru can transform into a giant snake. he wont need kuchyiose. though i dont see how animal realm not being able to defend has anything to do with orochimaru

i mention frog song because its more likely to land so wont argue about it being able to take out orochimaru. never have 

simply most of the things u mention have easy counters to orochimaru. hence why no point in mentioning them 

like i said no one mentions kunai's being able to kill madara even though it would if he pierced his skull

acid, goemon which can cover oro body are countered without any effort. 

hence my statement jiriaya got nothing bar frog song to effectively put down orochimaru


----------



## Duhul10 (Jul 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> . if he can easily defend then why bring it up as possible ways to kill him
> 
> a kunai can kill jiriaya as well. you dont have me mentioning that as ways to kill jiraiya.
> 
> ...



Frog call  Yomi Numa


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> . if he can easily defend then why bring it up as possible ways to kill him
> 
> a kunai can kill jiriaya as well. you dont have me mentioning that as ways to kill jiraiya.



Maybe because you literally said Jiraiya can't kill him:



Icegaze said:


> :
> 
> jiriaya got nothing to kill orochimaru with.





And that's why i'm done responding to you again, because you still are refusing to acknowledge your shifting of the goal post.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Maybe because you literally said Jiraiya can't kill him:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ok then my argument is orochimaru kills jiriaya with a kunai. feel free to tell me why that wouldn't happen....so yes ill say orochimaru cant kill jiriaya with a kunai. because jiriaya can very easily defend against it. why mention it. but I guess with ur logic. one must mention all things including jutsu which have no chance of landing

if u can agree to such being a possibility then you have a point otherwise

am done as well 

I don't get the butthurt at all 

@duhul. human sized YN orochimaru barfs himself out. boss sized if he in human form he goes yamata and barfs himself out 

if in yamata form he just barfs himself out

again mentioning techniques whose chances of ending the match are 1% really serves no purpose

in years of posting on DB no one mentions kunai. despite it being able to kill 90% of the verse


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

my post is no different from saying deidara cant kill itachi. since every jutsu deidara has, itachi can either tank via susanoo, avoid all together or prevent 

so why mention C2 as if it would be relevant in a fight between the 2

its noting short of straw grasping to mention goemon when orochimaru can always defend against such with utter ease while laughing 

never implied it hits orochimaru and it still wont kill him. am saying it never will 

same way orochimaru myriad of snakes will never kill jiriaya 

common sense!!!


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> What did he practice in the field to improve with MS? Right after awakening MS he is able to cast MS-Genjutsu. Than w/o trianing anything related to Amaterasu or it's mechanics in the field or otherwise, he is immediately able to cast Amaterasu in response to the emotional stimulus of Team Taka being wiped out. Than immediately in response to Karin being on fire, he turns the flames off. Than at the start of the Kages arc he's immediately able to use Rib-Cage Susano'o and Enton. I guess you could say he trained off panel, but the implication of Sasuke saying there is something he wanted to try out, implies that he never attempted it prior to fighting Ei. From there every Susano'o form awakens in rapid succession to emotional stimuli not Sasuke. You could argue he trained in battle with Susano'o, but given that each form awakens due to emotional stimuli I find the insanely brief period of usage to be the unlikely reason for the awakening and find the emotional stimuli to be the much more likely cause.
> 
> So yeah I don't see any indication that MS didn't just increase his proficiency automatically.



You can make that case for Amaterasu, it is a jutsu Sasuke didn't have priorly and all of a sudden he was able to cast it(although to be fair, he researched it and saw Itachi use it a couple of times). 

But seems like he became better with Kagutschi in time as well as Susano'o. Like you said, he started out with ribcage Susano'o and progressed towards the highest stage by the end of his fight with Danzo. Sasuke fought 2 kage level shinobi to death from start to finish, that is real practice. 

And Sasuke expressed how hard it was to maintain just the ribcage at first, then he didn't show any discomfort when he was able to use higher stages up until he overdone it and exhausted himself. 

That surely is a result of progress. 



> That's fair enough, I can't explain it, because the dude was in a hospital or a barrel the entire time. Well perhaps his physical abilities increased passively just thanks to undergoing the whole CS evolution thing, even outside of CS. But that's all I got.


Probably. 

The thing is, it is really hard to explain stat increases, for example Naruto's post skip increase makes sense, considering he had undergone shitloads of training, but other than that, Kakashi or Sasuke's increases in part 1 don't make much sense given they didn't train as hard(at leat not on panel).

All I can say is that they are increasing their passives with less training/experience because they are supposed to be geniuses and they have the sharingan for accelerated growth.



> So if that's the case than a person's Ninjutsu and Genjutsu stats would rise just from getting Mangekyo.



Actually I have to agree with this. To me it isn't very clear whether MS gives you more room for growth, or just  the growth itself, but I think it is both.

For example,Obito basically jumped from 2 tomoe to 3 tomoe and to MS in an instant, and he was able to make use of such an advanced jutsu to some degree without being have to train for it. 

Another example is that,  in part 1 Sasuke didn't have any genjutsu prowess despite having the sharingan. And he only displayed decent genjutsu in part 2. He had to learn how to use genjutsu first to be able to become good @ it, as evident from his masterful use of genjutsu during part 2.

I feel like it increases proficiency, but you still need to learn and use techniques to become better at using them.

Actually it makes sense, because when you look at other shinobi without sharingan or Rinnegan they don't have any jutsu in their arsenal, as haxxed or as advanced as dojutsu users have.
There is no doubt that Dojutsu users have proficiency for both genjutsu and ninjutsu beyond a normal shinobi can ever have. 

Perhaps the only Shinobi who doesn't fit the norm is Hashirama, but then he also has a broken bloodline and unreasonably powerful chakra.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You can make that case for Amaterasu, it is a jutsu Sasuke didn't have priorly and all of a sudden he was able to cast it(although to be fair, he researched it and saw Itachi use it a couple of times).
> 
> But seems like he became better with Kagutschi in time as well as Susano'o. Like you said, he started out with ribcage Susano'o and progressed towards the highest stage by the end of his fight with Danzo. Sasuke fought 2 kage level shinobi to death from start to finish, that is real practice.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but I don't see how that has to do with Sasuke increasing his proficiency. Again it just seems like more of the special chakra Tobirama talked about bloomed in Sasuke as he experienced greater stress and emotional stimulus. 

But even if some of it is skill and some of it is passive, that would still mean just awakening the Mangekyo would passively increase ones stats.



> The thing is, it is really hard to explain stat increases, for example Naruto's post skip increase makes sense, considering he had undergone shitloads of training, but other than that, Kakashi or Sasuke's increases in part 1 don't make much sense given they didn't train as hard(at leat not on p


Everyone's stat increases make sense to me because there was plenty of time to train off panel while Naruto was away with Jiraiya for a month. However in Sasuke's case he was in a coma, so that doesn't really add up.

In his case it really seems like Kishi just had him magically improve so Naruto wouldn't leave him so far behind, by the time of the VOTE battle.



> Another example is that, in part 1 Sasuke didn't have any genjutsu prowess despite having the sharingan. And he only displayed decent genjutsu in part 2. He had to learn how to use genjutsu first to be able to become good @ it, as evident from his masterful use of genjutsu during part 2.


Yeah, these are good points as well, and basically this is what i'm saying Mangekyo passively increases ones proficiency.



> There is no doubt that Dojutsu users have proficiency for both genjutsu and ninjutsu beyond a normal shinobi can ever have.


This i'm not so sure about. I think ultimately it will be possible for anyone to use any of the Dojutsu techniques it's just that the Dojutsu allows them to take a short cut there instead of needing to train ones ass off in different arts to master the necessary skills to use that technique.

For example Enton gives Sasuke the ability to shape the black flames of Amaterasu, but we see characters like Sandaime Raikage and Darui who can manipulate Black Lightning, so I must imagine it's possible for someone to eventually learn Black-Fire, w/o a Dojutsu. Just like someone can eventually learn to control their chakra enough to use Chakra constructs like Susano'o


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 17, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I
> But even if some of it is skill and some of it is passive, that would still mean just awakening the Mangekyo would passively increase ones stats.


That I can agree with. Like... I'm not 100% sure, but from my point of view, MS could actually increase one's ninjutsu and genjutsu proficiency and thus would be reflected on those 2 stats.



> Everyone's stat increases make sense to me because there was plenty of time to train off panel while Naruto was away with Jiraiya for a month. However in Sasuke's case he was in a coma, so that doesn't really add up.
> 
> In his case it really seems like Kishi just had him magically improve so Naruto wouldn't leave him so far behind, by the time of the VOTE battle.


Same goes for Kakashi.
He had stat increase in between databooks 1 and 2, despite being in a coma for a week, but there is no stat increase between databook 2 and 3, where he had like 2.5 years to train.

Though in Kakashi's case, you could argue that he hit his peak by the time of Databook 2.



> his i'm not so sure about. I think ultimately it will be possible for anyone to use any of the Dojutsu techniques it's just that the Dojutsu allows them to take a short cut there instead of needing to train ones ass off in different arts to master the necessary skills to use that technique.
> 
> For example Enton gives Sasuke the ability to shape the black flames of Amaterasu, but we see characters like Sandaime Raikage and Darui who can manipulate Black Lightning, so I must imagine it's possible for someone to eventually learn Black-Fire, w/o a Dojutsu. Just like someone can eventually learn to control their chakra enough to use Chakra constructs like Susano'o



You are talking about possibility, but did we really see any technique on par with Susano'O or Kamui or Koto or Tsukiyomi, coming from a non dojutsu user ? 

Closest things I can think of are Jinton and Hashirama's hugeass Mokutons, but then they are both bloodline users and they also have the benefit of a "special" chakra.

But overall, the most haxxed things we've seen so far are products of Dojutsu.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Same goes for Kakashi.
> He had stat increase in between databooks 1 and 2, despite being in a coma for a week, but there is no stat increase between databook 2 and 3, where he had like 2.5 years to train.
> 
> Though in Kakashi's case, you could argue that he hit his peak by the time of Databook 2.


Kakashi was doing missions like a mad man after Hiruzen died though.

And I think his lack of stat increases between DBII and DBIII is probably due to his focus on Sharingan and his unique circumstances as a none Uchiha Sharingan user, and how he needed to train that.



> You are talking about possibility, but did we really see any technique on par with Susano'O or Kamui or Koto or Tsukiyomi, coming from a non dojutsu user ?


I don't think all of those techniques are the same level. I think most Kages, have Techniques >= Tsukuyomi and Kamui, and some highly skilled Jonin, for example I'd take Dan's Reishi technique or Hidan's Voodoo technique over ether of those any day of the week. Obito's Kamui was so good because he could spam it otherwise it wouldn't have been so OP. 

Susano'o moves the bar a little higher depending on which Stage were talking about, but even Madara's Perfect Susano'o or Sasuke's Rinnegan Susano'o, there are clearly techniques that match or excel that, Gai's 8 Gates, EE, and Night Gai prove that.



> But overall, the most haxxed things we've seen so far are products of Dojutsu


I'd say the techniques that require someone to sacrifice their life or the lives of others, are in general the most hax techniques whether Dojutsu or otherwise. 

Edo-Tensei, Gedo Rinnei Tensei, 8 Gate Opening Formation, Reishi no Jutsu, Shiki Fuujin, Hidan's Voodoo Ritual, Fuushi Tensei, Jingo, Human Puppet Generation, Kishō Tensei, etc...

Are the most fucked techniques in the manga. A-lot of thee should speak for themselves, but to touch on the more controversial ones. 

Reisehi Technique is basically unstoppable because what can stop Dan from possessing someone and having them kill themselves?

Fuushi Tensei, Jingo, and Voodoo Ritual have nigh limitless potential because they enable the user to be immortal, and also come with very powerful abilities with a huge amount of potential. Hidan just sucked. 

Human Puppet Generation is basically Edo-Tensei with some advantageous and disadvantageous comparatively speaking. 

Kishō Tensei is actually super fucked because besides giving life to the dead, the user can actually bring unliving things like puppets back to life according to Chiyo, so there is really nothing stopping the user from creating a fucking god puppet and bringing it to life.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi was doing missions like a mad man after Hiruzen died though.
> 
> And I think his lack of stat increases between DBII and DBIII is probably due to his focus on Sharingan and his unique circumstances as a none Uchiha Sharingan user, and how he needed to train that.
> 
> ...



Yeah but you are comparing Tsukiyomi to other ninjutsu. How many "Kage levels" have genjutsu stronger or more advanced than Tsukiyomi ? 

Also I am not talking about which is better, rather I am talking about which is more advanced and haxxed.

Also Obito's Kaumi is the most haxxed thing in my book. When you think of it in terms of mechanics, I am not sure if any other ninjutsu come close in terms of complexity. Save some stuff we saw in the last 40 - 50 chapters which were mostly dojutsu related stuff as well.

Again, I'm not arguing how good or useful they are. Those things rely on circumstances.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah but you are comparing Tsukiyomi to other ninjutsu. How many "Kage levels" have genjutsu stronger or more advanced than Tsukiyomi ?
> .


How many Kages have been Genjutsu types? Gengetsu's Clam?

Most people outside Uchiha don't use Genjutsu, probably because Kishi figured we were getting enough Genjutsu from Uchiha.



> Also I am not talking about which is better, rather I am talking about which is more advanced and haxxed.


I don't know what you mean by hax, than because I consider all those techniques more Hax.



> Also Obito's Kaumi is the most haxxed thing in my book. When you think of it in terms of mechanics, I am not sure if any other ninjutsu come close in terms of complexity. Save some stuff we saw in the last 40 - 50 chapters which were mostly dojutsu related stuff as well.


How can it be the most hax, when I can summon back a Kamui user with Edo Tensei, alongside another 60 legendary Shinobi? Just to give one example.


And like I said Kamui was so good because Obito could spam it. If he could not, than it's not nearly as versatile as your claiming it to be. Someone would only be able to use it handful of times. Slipping through 3-4 attacks per battle and teleporting a few times per battle isn't that hax.



> Again, I'm not arguing how good or useful they are. Those things rely on circumstances.


I wouldn't take the ability to use any Dojutsu technique over the ability to use any of those sacrificial techniques for any other reason than morality. Maybe I'd take them over the self sacrifice techniques, but not if I'd already resigned myself to death, and just needed the Jutsu with the best odds to down my enemy.


----------

