# Ending the Amaterasu vs. Kamui debate



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

*The point of this thread is to put an end to the Amaterasu vs. Kamui debate. I will go over statements and feats to show which attack is faster & which is deadlier. If, by chance, I forget to add an important piece of information, please provide the link so that we can add it to the discussion....now then, let's begin. *

*Zetsu's comment about Amaterasu*

This is something that people on these forums have misused.  People say that Amaterasu is the strongest ninjutsu; however, that is taking Zetsu's words out of context: 
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

"If the left Mangekyou possesses the most powerful genjutsu?then the right one holds the most powerful physical attack. ?Amatersaru burns anything that enters the eye?s field of vision to cinders with an unholy black flame?*or so I?ve heard*." - Zetsu

The comment made by Zetsu wasn't one that was stating facts, he was saying what he heard, NOT what he knew. 

Zetsu thinks that Amatersaru can't be avoided, something that we later learn is false. This also discredits Zetsu's thoughts on the jutsu a bit:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

We latter see that Zetsu made his comments without knowing about Susanoo:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

*What Amaterasu has shown*

Next, we have Amaterasu being used by the Master himself against a non MS fire jutsu being used by CS Sasuke:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

That feat proved that Amaterasu can, indeed burn fire itself. However, the jutsu takes time when it actually comes down to it's ability to kill:
Sasuke gets hit and lives. His wing just starts to burn, yet Sasuke isn't reduced to ash. 
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Here we see Raikage's arm on fire from Amaterasu, yet he didn't feel an immediate need to get rid of the flame, instead he went on to try and land another hit:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

*Amaterasu is instant/it is extremely fast?*
Another thing people say on these forums is that Amaterasu is instant, which goes against what the manga clearly shows. 

We see Amaterasu traveling here, as Sasuke tries to outrun in and Itachi guides it:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Not only do we see that Amaterasu has a traveling time, we see that with enough speed, you can dodge the attack:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Once again, we see that Amaterasu has a traveling time and this time Gaara blocks the attack with his sand, which doesn't get eradicated: 
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Later we see Gaara is able to block Amaterasu again with his sand, and Sasuke comments on Gaara's defense:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is. 

*It is also interesting to note that Raikage did not make a single comment about Amaterasu's speed, while he openly praises Minato's speed and commented on Kakashi's jutsu. From what the manga shows, we know a few things:*
*1) Zetsu's comments were based on what he heard, not on what he knew, and he didn't know about Susanoo.
2) Amaterasu is NOT instant, it has a traveling time and can be blocked or dodged
3) Even when Amaterasu lands, it takes a good amount of time before it burns you to death. 
4) The fastest target Amaterasu hit in the history of the manga is CS Sasuke.*

**Note**
*I didn't add the scan of Karin getting hit by Amaterasu because I didn't think it was legit for a real debate. *


*Now it is time to look at kamui.....*

We know that Kamui is more advanced than Minato/Tobirama's flying thunder god jutsu:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Diedara says that Kakashi's dojutsu is on the same level of Itachi, even though Kakashi's skill with kamui is horrible at the time:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Minato says that Kamui is a greater space-time jutsu than his own and the second's:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

*Kamui's speed*

Here we see Kakashi use kamui on Sasuke's Susanoo arrow, keep in mind that this is, in fact, Sasuke's strongest and fastest attack before he gained EMS. The Susanoo arrow is the one jutsu of Sasuke's that Danzou could not physically dodge:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Later we see Kakashi use kamui so fast that Obito didn't notice it; moreover, his kamui was able to reach Naruto's bunshin faster than Obito's kamui attack, even though Obito was face to face with Naruto:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

*Now it is time to rewind...*.

From what we know, Minato is the fastest person in the manga, let's take a look at his fight with a young Obito:

Here, Minato, the same guy who Raikage praises as the fastest person alive, says that his fight with Obito comes down to who can attack a split second earlier:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

Minato won by throwing his kunai first, which made him the first to attack, and resulted in the Flying Thunder God jutsu, level 2:
And yet Asura still survived long enough to fire a missile at Choji, and only died after that, just to show you how insanely high his level of endurance is.

*Summing up some quick facts:*
*1) Deidara compared Kakashi's dojutsu with Itachi's back when Kakashi wasn't good with kamui.
2) Minato, the fastest man alive gave kamui credit for it's speed, even while being used by a young Obito. The Raikage, on the other hand, a slower fighter, had nothing to say about the speed of Amaterasu. 
3) Kakashi's kamui is even faster than Obito's.* 

The feats and statements above make it obvious that kamui is faster than Amaterasu. If there is any doubt, think of this. _*Obito's kamui is slower than Kakashi's, yet the fight against Madara came down to a split second, and who attacked first. Sasuke fired off Amaterasu at Raikage (who is slower than Minato) first, and the attack was easily dodged without any comment  or worry about the jutsu's speed.*_

Finally, to cap this off, we will revisit the killing power of both jutsu. As we seen in the Amaterasu section, once the attack lands, it doesn't immediately kill you. It burns you and eventually it should kill you; however, the time it takes to die gives you enough time to think of a counter or escape. Once kamui lands; however, it automatically teleports whatever it hits. In Kakashi's case, the wrap should happen around the same speed, if not faster than Minato's teleportation speed (unless you think Obito's kamui never improved over the years). 

**Final Verdict**
From what the manga has shown, kamui is both faster and deadlier than Amaterasu. As I said earlier, if I missed anything important, please provide a scan so that we can add it to this thread.


----------



## boohead (Dec 9, 2013)

There was a debate?

I thought everyone who wasn't a shitty fanboy pretty much knew Kamui was superior...


----------



## HoriMaori (Dec 9, 2013)

Excellent analysis with valid evidence to support. 

+Reps

But you forgot the most important factor: Kamui can beat armour and clothing.



Kamui wins.


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> Excellent analysis with valid evidence to support.
> 
> +Reps
> 
> ...



That is true, armor and raw power don't matter against kamui.


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2013)

just  a few point outs

amatarasu flares where ever the eye focuses. thats not amatarasu traveling.....its spawning everywhere itachi is putting his focus on. he's missing because 1. sasuke is fast 2. itachi cant see for shit

2) the amatarasu/enton sasuke used vs gaara, is sasuke using it to block gaara's sand. not the other way around. it was instantaneous.

3. raikage dodged, obviously he's not exactly an easy target to focus on when he's dashing around in the speed of light. it doesnt indicate travel time.

what part of "this jutsu is instant just like amatarasu (referring to kirin) dont u understand? it's INSTANT. amatarasu has been called instant more than several times, kamui hasn't.

in other words you got your citations wrong, therefore the thread is not credible.


----------



## Cord (Dec 9, 2013)

*Jutsu vs Jutsu* match ups, like this one, are more suitable to be discussed in the Naruto Battledome section. So I'm going to move this particular thread there, if you don't mind.


----------



## Krippy (Dec 9, 2013)

> The feats and statements above make it obvious that kamui is faster than Amaterasu. If there is any doubt, think of this. Obito's kamui is slower than Kakashi's, yet the fight against Madara came down to a split second, and who attacked first. Sasuke fired off Amaterasu at Raikage (who is slower than Minato) first, and the attack was easily dodged without any comment or worry about the jutsu's speed.



Raikage is faster than Minato. Hiraishin coupled with his natural reflexes is what allows Minato to hang with him. If you replaced Sasuke at the kage summit with Kakashi and gave Raikage knowledge, he could likely dodge Kamui with his Shunshin charged with bijuu levels of chakra.

and Gaara never blocked Amaterasu, he blocked Kagetsuchi, which is about as fast as FRS. 

Kamui is a bit better than Amaterasu due to the nature of the attack, however it's been left behind by techniques like Enton: Kagetsuchi, haxx Genjutsu, and Susano'o.

Nobody cares about Amaterasu anymore. Kishi is never gonna show anybody important being burned alive by black flames. Just like how FRS has only killed dead people.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 9, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> 3. raikage dodged, obviously he's not exactly an easy target to focus on when he's dashing around in the speed of light. it doesnt indicate travel time.


Ei moved after sasuke launched amaterasu.  Amaterasu can't literally be instant, as you can't dodge an instant attack after the attack is released.  



T-Bag said:


> what part of "this jutsu is instant just like amatarasu (referring to kirin) dont u understand? it's INSTANT. amatarasu has been called instant more than several times, kamui hasn't.
> 
> in other words you got your citations wrong, therefore the thread is not credible.


Kirin is a perfect example as to why amaterasu isn't really instant as kirin does have a travel time, it's merely in the context of the combatants: sasuke and itachi that kirin is unavoidable since they lack the speed to dodge.


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Ei moved after sasuke launched amaterasu.  Amaterasu can't literally be instant, as you can't dodge an instant attack after the attack is released.


raikage is also instant tho, he moved before sasuke could get him. and he had knowledge on amatarasu prior the fight, so he anticipated it 



> Kirin is a perfect example as to why amaterasu isn't really instant as kirin does have a travel time, it's merely in the context of the combatants: sasuke and itachi that kirin is unavoidable since they lack the speed to dodge.



kirin is a lightning strike LOL. the speed is literally unavoidable. dont let the cool fancy dragon effect fool u  thats what it is, an effect.


----------



## HoriMaori (Dec 9, 2013)

Put it this way:

Unless Amaterasu hits the head or torso directly, it can be avoided if the clothes or affect limbs are removed. (See Samurai armour, Madara armour, Karin's clothes, Ay's arm, Juubi body part split).

Not that Kakashi has murked anyone with his Kamui yet, but hitting a Susano'o arrow in mid flight or something as small as a nail in mid flight? Damn....


----------



## Chaelius (Dec 9, 2013)

You're confusing Amaterasu for Kagutsuchi in your Gaara example, Sasuke is controlling the flames above his head not using Amaterasu.

We've also seen from the Danzo fight that Amaterasu  can engulf and kill people in instants, the fanon logic people use is that it burns faster if the user is focused on the target, plot logic is that a jutsu like Amaterasu(Or kamui) will never kill anyone unless they're already dead, a clone or have magic immortality, it's why it can burn through a fire resistant magic frog throat, harm a bijuu, kill a man in the blink of an eye but at the same time doesn't burn a cape or samurai armor.

two

In the debate of Amaterasu vs Kamui I think they're both extremely deadly in a battledome logic scenario, but in the manga the most they'll do is make someone lose an arm or something .


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Raikage is faster than Minato. Hiraishin coupled with his natural reflexes is what allows Minato to hang with him. If you replaced Sasuke at the kage summit with Kakashi and gave Raikage knowledge, he could likely dodge Kamui with his Shunshin charged with bijuu levels of chakra.
> 
> and Gaara never blocked Amaterasu, he blocked Kagetsuchi, which is about as fast as FRS.
> 
> ...


1) Minato's jutsu makes him faster than Ei. Replace Kakashi with Sasuke, and Ei would have been killed if we are using current Kakashi whos kamui is faster than Obito's. 

2) Prove the jutsu you named are better than Kamui. This thread requires feats for statements made. 



T-Bag said:


> *raikage is also instant tho, he moved before sasuke could get him. and he had knowledge on amatarasu prior the fight, so he anticipated it *
> 
> 
> 
> kirin is a lightning strike LOL. the speed is literally unavoidable. dont let the cool fancy dragon effect fool u  thats what it is, an effect.




So Amaterasu is instant, but slower than Raikage, because he is also instant, but he is slower than Minato's jutsu so does that make him super instant? 

You don't seem to understand how the word instant works. What is instant for one person isn't instant for another. For use, the speed of sound seems instant, yet it is slow compared to Mach 10 speeds, which is slow compared to the speed of lightning, which is slow compared to the speed of light. All of them seem instant to use; however, not when compared to each other. What is instant to Sasuke isn't instant to Hashirama, Madara, Minato, Tobirama, etc.  Also, if Kirin was instant, what does that make Susanoo??? What would that make Susanoo's attacks?


----------



## Garcher (Dec 9, 2013)

So why Obito thought he would be dead if Itachi wanted so?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Kamui, obviously. Kakashi's, obvious; Obito used it to remove Itachi's Amaterasu.



Itachi the Best said:


> So why Obito thought he would be dead if Itachi wanted so?



Amaterasu with a Fuuinjutsu >>>>>> Amaterasu.


----------



## Brooks (Dec 9, 2013)

The only problem with this agreement is when you compare Gaara blocking Enton kagutsuchi to Amaterasu's speed...

Amaterasu spawn at where the user focus his eyes on(which seems to be instant from our eyes), While Kagutsuchi is simply thrown from a distance(much like Rasen-Shuriken) which is why Gaara was able to react to it and block it with his Sand.







^See the flames are coming from the upper part of the Ribcage instead of Sasuke's eyes.


----------



## Brooks (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kamui, obviously. Kakashi's, obvious; *Obito used it to remove Itachi's Amaterasu*.
> 
> 
> 
> Amaterasu with a Fuuinjutsu >>>>>> Amaterasu.



And how would you know Obito used Kamui to escape from the Amaterasu?

He could have used Izanagi....lets try not to claim something we can't proof.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Brooks said:


> And how would you know Obito used Kamui to escape from the Amaterasu?
> 
> He could have used Izanagi....lets try not to claim something we can't proof.



Not Izanagi because it goes against how the jutsu works. Mokuton; possible. Though warping the flames away is even more possible.


----------



## egressmadara (Dec 9, 2013)

Kamui has been numerous times more successful than Amaterasu.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

In terms of portrayal. Amaterasu has been countered several ways, yet Kamui was only countered by Kamui.


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> So Amaterasu is instant, but slower than Raikage, because he is also instant, but he is slower than Minato's jutsu so does that make him super instant?



what the fuck are u talking about? u're confusing ur self with my words.

raikage moves at instantaneous speeds around the field, fast enough that even the sharingan couldn't keep up as per C. u need to learn how amatarasu works, it's instant and it spawns where the eye focuses, but since sasuke cant focus on the guy he's obviously going to miss. thats how itachi kept missing as well.

saying amatarasu travels  





> You don't seem to understand how the word instant works. What is instant for one person isn't instant for another. For use, the speed of sound seems instant, yet it is slow compared to Mach 10 speeds, which is slow compared to the speed of lightning, which is slow compared to the speed of light. All of them seem instant to use; however, not when compared to each other. What is instant to Sasuke isn't instant to Hashirama, Madara, Minato, Tobirama, etc.  Also, if Kirin was instant, what does that make Susanoo??? What would that make Susanoo's attacks?



susano spawns instantaneously.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In terms of portrayal. Amaterasu has been countered several ways, yet Kamui was only countered by Kamui.



thats why obito beat everyone. and explains why he created akatsuki to capture the bijuus.


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

Brooks said:


> The only problem with this agreement is when you compare Gaara blocking Enton kagutsuchi to Amaterasu's speed...
> 
> Amaterasu spawn at where the user focus his eyes on(which seems to be instant from our eyes), While Kagutsuchi is simply thrown from a distance(much like Rasen-Shuriken) which is why Gaara was able to react to it and block it with his Sand.
> 
> ...


+Reps

Good post. That would justify Gaara not blocking Amaterasu; however, it's still the black flame, so wouldn't that hold the same destructive power? 



egressmadara said:


> Kamui has been numerous times more successful than Amaterasu.



Not everyone wants to believe that.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In terms of portrayal. Amaterasu has been countered several ways, yet Kamui was only countered by Kamui.


Exactly! People try to avoid that fact. 


T-Bag said:


> what the fuck are u talking about? u're confusing ur self with my words.
> 
> raikage moves at instantaneous speeds around the field, fast enough that even the sharingan couldn't keep up as per C. u need to learn how amatarasu works, it's instant and it spawns where the eye focuses, but since sasuke cant focus on the guy he's obviously going to miss. thats how itachi kept missing as well.
> 
> ...



Clearly, once again, you fail to comprehend the definition of instant. Also, once again, the scan clearly shows Amaterasu being fired first. Raikage moved after the attack was used. He wasn't moving around in circles or zig zagging before the attack. 


Your excuse for everything is that everything is instantaneous. Kirin was launched before Itachi activated Susanoo. Obviously Itachi's Susanoo must manifest faster than Kirin can strike. If Kirin is instantaneous like you say amaterasu is, how is it that a jutsu used after Kirin was already moving had the capability to block it? You keep using talking about jutsu being instant without knowing the meaning, which makes your rebuttals sound foolish. 

Your logic:

Amaterasu - instant
Kirin - instant
Raikage's movement - instant
Susanoo - instant

If you only fall back on the word instant, which jutsu is faster?


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2013)

Amatarasu was stated to be instant be instant several times though, no matter how you interpret it. can you say the same about kamui? nppe, u lose by default. and the images u cited in your OP are wrong.

how much more wrong do u wana be?


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> Amatarasu was stated to be instant be instant several times though, no matter how you interpret it. can you say the same about kamui? nppe, u lose by default. and the images u cited in your OP are wrong.
> 
> how much more wrong do u wana be?



Feats > Statements.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> thats why obito beat everyone. and explains why he created akatsuki to capture the bijuus.



He _almost_ beat Minato, scared Itachi away from confrontation and managed to fight a 4 of top tier foes at once... who only stood a chance _because_ of Kamui.


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Feats > Statements.



false. in fact u couldnt be more wrong.

statements are kishimoto's messages to the readers. feats are often over exaggerated and nit picked by fans lol. everyone interprets them differently. i mean for fucks sasuke, ur a prime example, here you are trying so hard to prove Ama isn't instant  despite kishi saying different.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He _almost_ beat Minato, scared Itachi away from confrontation and managed to fight a 4 of top tier foes at once... who only stood a chance _because_ of Kamui.



ill twist that.

minato beat him.
tobi was afraid of itachi
tobi hung around with 4 top tiers, with absolutely no progress.

cmon man lol. if kamui was that OP he'd nvr have created akatsuki to begin with. kamui everything and everybody. but obviously its not as easy as it looks.


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> false. in fact u couldnt be more wrong.
> 
> statements are kishimoto's messages to the readers. feats are often over exaggerated and nit picked by fans lol. everyone interprets them differently. i mean for fucks sasuke, ur a prime example, here you are trying so hard to prove Ama isn't instant  despite kishi saying different.
> 
> ...



Do you look at what you write before you make a post? Obviously you don't know what the word instant means. Also, saying that statements are > feats just shows how petty your argument actually is. You disregard feats because of statements that have been proven wrong. Also, I already posted a scan showing that Zetsu didn't even know what he was talking about.


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2013)

your scans are incorrect.

now regarding feats v. statements --> statements win. minato's feats appeared to be much better than naruto's by pain arc, yet kishimoto states naruto has surpassed the 4th. Which even many people like yourself to this day still can't accept. can't accept because "minato's FEATSSSS > narut's FEAAAATSS.

feats are worthless in front of statements. u need to learn that, ur behind.

edit: thx 4 the neg. i wont neg u, i'd only be offending myself by neggin someone like.... Hamaru


----------



## Krippy (Dec 9, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> 1) Minato's jutsu makes him faster than Ei. Replace Kakashi with Sasuke, and Ei would have been killed if we are using current Kakashi whos kamui is faster than Obito's.



Hirashin is what makes Minato faster than Ei. Base Minato (No S/T jutsu) would get wrecked by Ei so hard it isn't even funny.

And no, it's not faster than Amaterasu. They both spawn "instantly" on the target and nothing you said proves other wise besides Obito not seeing it being used despite fighting 3 Kage level ninja at the same time.



> 2) *Prove the jutsu you named are better than Kamui.* This thread requires feats for statements made.



I dont need to prove anything. That's not what's being argued. This is Amaterasu vs. Kamui last I checked.

Amaterasu isn't what makes Sasuke's or Itachi's moveset lethal. It's their use of it. On it's own, Amaterasu has been portrayed as just a extremely hot fire that's hard to avoid and impossible to extinguish. However, Enton:Kagetsuchi has never been trolled or countered, really. Just like how regular MS Genjutsu like Sasuke uses can be countered, but Tsukuyomi has only been countered by another Uchiha.

Nobody is arguing that Kamui is superior, feats and portray put it on another level. This however, doesn't change the fact that Kakashi isn't troubling any top-tier with Kamui.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 9, 2013)

Kamui shits on Amaterasu 
Obito jus used kamui against KCM Naruto Killer B Kakashi and Guy 
And still managed to stalemate them 
Kamui is also faster and I reckon is one of the best defence


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> your scans are incorrect.
> 
> now regarding feats v. statements --> statements win. minato's feats appeared to be much better than naruto's by pain arc, yet kishimoto states naruto has surpassed the 4th. Which even many people like yourself to this day still can't accept. can't accept because "minato's FEATSSSS > narut's FEAAAATSS.
> 
> ...


Everyone and their mother knows that Naruto surpassed Minato in attack power a long time ago, which is what the FRS training was all about; however, we all know that not just because of some comments, but because of what Naruto has accomplished. You're like a kid who closes his eyes, puts his fingers in his ears, and say, "lalalalalalalala" to avoid the truth. 

You're welcome, you've earned it. 



Krippy said:


> Hirashin is what makes Minato faster than Ei. Base Minato (No S/T jutsu) would get wrecked by Ei so hard it isn't even funny.
> 
> And no, it's not faster than Amaterasu. They both spawn "instantly" on the target and nothing you said proves other wise besides Obito not seeing it being used despite fighting 3 Kage level ninja at the same time.
> 
> ...



Obviously I was talking about Minato's Hirashin, which makes him the fastest, Ei admits to that. Even with that jutsu Minato knew that it came down to a split second between him and Obito. As for your "instant" comment, which is faster the speed of sound or lightning? 

Kagetsuchi moved around the same speed as FRS and it's flames doesn't kill on contact. That is, in no way, better than kamui. 

Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was canceled by Danzou. 

Only kamui has dealt with kamui. Also, Kakashi is top tier. Fact is that kamui has better speed feats than Amateratsu, if you have a feat to prove otherwise, feel free to post it.


----------



## StickaStick (Dec 9, 2013)

Y'all get back to me when Kamui is being referenced as "not even worth acknowledging". Until then Kamui > Amatarasu, undeniably. Kamui allows you to hang with the likes of Nardo, Kakashi, Gai, and Bee and is  the key to countering itself. Amatarasu has failed over and over again. Doesn't matter if it's against top tier or not. Kishi doesn't portray this stuff the way he does for no damn reason. 

If Kishi doesn't minimalize Kamui in the upcoming chapters like he just blatantly did Amatarasu (and the oppurtunity is obv. there with Kakashi and even Obito still around) this debate is officially dead.


----------



## Brooks (Dec 9, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> +Reps
> 
> Good post. That would justify Gaara not blocking Amaterasu; however, it's still the black flame, so wouldn't that hold the same destructive power?



Thank you

I wouldn't say Amaterasu hold that much of destructive power over Kagutsuchi but it seems to burn faster than Enton Kagutsuchi which is why Sasuke turns Enton Kagutsuchi into a weapon in order to hurt his enemies with full force of black flames to make up for the lack of hotter flames...


----------



## Ersa (Dec 9, 2013)

The techniques are basically equals in my eyes. If you're going to throw out low-ends to degrade Amaterasu then there's also high-ends (hurting Juubi/Hachibi, putting down FRS-tanking Cerberus, burning through fire-resistant toad stomach). Authors can get inconsistent (in One Piece for example, I think one of Admirals (a top tier) failed to kill fodders with his fire); it's best to look at high-ends for a more accurate gauge of where the author places the technique.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 9, 2013)

Itachi's ama>Kakashi's Kamui>>>>>>>>Sasuke's ama.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 9, 2013)

Sasuke's Amaterasu isn't even that weaker than Itachi's. 

It's not Sasuke's fault everytime he has used it on a target, it has a convenient counter for the flames. Put Itachi in the same kind of situations and it'd fail as well.

Had Itachi used Amaterasu on the Juubi, the beast would had just cut off the burned part and the same for everything.

Before the "LOL, it failed to burn Karin's body!" comes, that was MS Sasuke, not the current one whose flames are obviously more stronger and more versatile.


----------



## Risyth (Dec 9, 2013)

boohead said:


> There was a debate?
> 
> I thought everyone who wasn't a shitty fanboy pretty much knew Kamui was superior...



This and this only.


----------



## babaGAReeb (Dec 9, 2013)

amatarasu= jutsu that is supposed to be hot as the sun but isnt even hot as orochimarus ice cold heart

Kamui: a teleporter jutsu that actually is what is claims to be

i think we all know which is better


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 9, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> The techniques are basically equals in my eyes. If you're going to throw out low-ends to degrade Amaterasu then there's also* high-ends (hurting Juubi/Hachibi, putting down FRS-tanking Cerberus, burning through fire-resistant toad stomach)*. Authors can get inconsistent (in One Piece for example, I think one of Admirals (a top tier) failed to kill fodders with his fire); it's best to look at high-ends for a more accurate gauge of where the author places the technique.



Those are nice high-ends, however, Kakashi was able to wrap the Hachibi at the blink of an eye. If he was trying to kill Hachibi, he could have just taken the head and ended the Hachibi's life. Obito already knew that Kakashi was to dangerous to have around the Juubi and took him off the battle-field.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> *The point of this thread is to put an end to the Amaterasu vs. Kamui debate. I will go over statements and feats to show which attack is faster & which is deadlier. If, by chance, I forget to add an important piece of information, please provide the link so that we can add it to the discussion....now then, let's begin. *


Which is faster and which is deadlier? Yet your conclusion doesn't support YOUR FACTS.

NOTE THAT AMATERASU has a much, much larger sample size.
NOTE THAT YOU'RE BEING A BIT MORE BIAS TO KAMUI, as you're comparing both variations to a single aspect of the ENTON family.

With that out of the way, let's get to chopping this fable.

[QUOTE[*Zetsu's comment about Amaterasu*

This is something that people on these forums have misused.  People say that Amaterasu is the strongest ninjutsu; however, that is taking Zetsu's words out of context: 
ribs[/QUOTE]
But zetsu's statement is reiterated by Kabuto.

So your TAKING out of context argument doesn't exactly work, as now you're arguing against two canonical statements opposed to one.



> "If the left Mangekyou possesses the most powerful genjutsu?then the right one holds the most powerful physical attack. ?Amatersaru burns anything that enters the eye?s field of vision to cinders with an unholy black flame?*or so I?ve heard*." - Zetsu
> 
> The comment made by Zetsu wasn't one that was stating facts, he was saying what he heard, NOT what he knew.


See above.



> Zetsu thinks that Amatersaru can't be avoided, something that we later learn is false. This also discredits Zetsu's thoughts on the jutsu a bit:
> Kabuto


Oh boy, you see what happens when Iphr0z3nI.....

Deal how.

Zetsu wasn't the original arbitrator of "unavoidable Amaterasu"

That was Sasuke.

Thus the only thing discredited thus far, is you, mate.





> We latter see that Zetsu made his comments without knowing about Susanoo:
> That was Sasuke
> 
> *What Amaterasu has shown*


Yet again, it's not only Zetsu's words you have to dispute, it's Kabuto's and Zetsu's words



> Next, we have Amaterasu being used by the Master himself against a non MS fire jutsu being used by CS Sasuke:
> That was Sasuke
> That was Sasuke
> That was Sasuke
> ...


And people cosigned the openings efforts? You see Iphr0z3nI is a hard one to please, as he knows deep down he can DO IT BETTER, in most cases.

As I stated earlier, your argument is a bit biased as you seem to be selective in regards what feats you are using for what.

Amaterasu never killed Sasuke, so why use it?

Deal how: Amatersu is still fire at the end of the day, right? And fire is a much, much slower means to kill someone in comparison to say....a gun. So why use it? IT'S BECAUSE IT'S A MUCH SLOWER MEANS TO KILL SOMEONE, silly. It's malicious, it's gory, it's agonizingly painful and torturous. 

Thus measuring something by SPEED IN WHICH IT KILLS, is pointless.
But Kamui is even slower.

As it does not even kill outright.

Kamui merely transports one to another dimension, which does not equate to death.

In order for Kamui to be deadly outright, it requires one to AIM AS SPECIFIC BODY PARTS, something Amaterasu doesn't have to deal with as fire spreads.
And depending on which variation of Kamui one is discussing, warping specific body parts of others isn't even an option.

The Kamui to transport body parts HAS BEEN MUCH SLOWER THAN AMATERASU.

Usage against Deidara's arm took a hot minute.

And a similar period took place when trying to warp the Gedo Mazo's head.



> Here we see Raikage's arm on fire from Amaterasu, yet he didn't feel an immediate need to get rid of the flame, instead he went on to try and land another hit:
> Mazo's




Notice that Amaterasu didn't land immediately on raikage's arm.
You see this aura around the Raikage? That's not your  Super saiyan Aura. It's called the , thus very DENSE, very durable.

Amaterasu had to BURN THROUGH THAT TO REACH RAIKAGE'S ARM. Something it manage to do in no time.

Now considering there is NO GAP in between the arm chop and the leg drop. Considering the flames manage to burn through the armor in a very, very short time span, I'd say that's a plus 1 for amaterasu, right?


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2013)

> *Amaterasu is instant/it is extremely fast?*
> Another thing people say on these forums is that Amaterasu is instant, which goes against what the manga clearly shows.


Depending on the range.

In many cases Amaterasu simply appears on it's target, outright.

More examples.



> We see Amaterasu traveling here, as Sasuke tries to outrun in and Itachi guides it:
> examples


That's two examples vs TWELVE.

Any who, there's no doubt that Amaterasu travels after a certain distance. If it didn't the jutsu wouldn't be dubbed UNAVOIDABLE BY SASUKE.

AMATERASU has two functions to ensure it doesn't miss. 

A. It's instantaneous within a certain distance. There's only three times in which Amaterasu has had to travel. Two of those times, the focal point was missed. Therefore the attack had to either chase or converge to a target standing directly behind the initial one.

The third involved Sasuke being a rather sizable distance from the target. But the above is rather inconsistent, as Sasuke is a sizable distance from......And Itachi too, is a sizable distance from......



> Not only do we see that Amaterasu has a traveling time, we see that with enough speed, you can dodge the attack:
> sizable


Already ahead of you buddy, and again that's 1 of 3 out of a selection of 15+ showcasings.

In other words traveling Amaterasu is in the minority.(Yet people cosigned this?)



> Once again, we see that Amaterasu has a traveling time and this time Gaara blocks the attack with his sand, which doesn't get eradicated:
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed


That's NOT AMATERASU.

That's Enton kagutsuchi, and the attack stopped moving when the spikes were formed.

Talk about desperation.

Read Mr.

You guarded against my Enton(Enton does not = Amaterasu), and you notice the BALL OF FLAMES SITTING ON TOP OF SUSANO'O, right?

In short Sasuke's feats there is similar too...

Hence is why on the panel you see three different pools of enton. Thus is why the anime depicts three different locations for the flames displacement.(Sasuke isn't using three different Amaterasu's in quick succession)

And note that SAND IS EXTREMELY RESISTANT TO HEAT. 

Do you know how hot a fire has to melt(regular) sand? 

How did people cosign this? Were they blinded by the links? The effort? The effort is clearly half hearted, as Iphr0z3nI is having no difficulty chopping this fable. 



> Later we see Gaara is able to block Amaterasu again with his sand, and Sasuke comments on Gaara's defense:
> too



Read Mr.

You guarded against my Enton(Enton does not = Amaterasu), and you notice the BALL OF FLAMES SITTING ON TOP OF SUSANO'O, right?

In short Sasuke's feats there is similar too...

Hence is why on the panel you see three different pools of enton. Thus is why the anime depicts three different locations for the flames displacement.(Sasuke isn't using three different Amaterasu's in quick succession)

And note that SAND IS EXTREMELY RESISTANT TO HEAT. 

Do you know how hot a fire has to melt(regular) sand? 

How did people cosign this? Were they blinded by the links? The effort? The effort is clearly half hearted, as Iphr0z3nI is having no difficulty chopping this fable. 




> *It is also interesting to note that Raikage did not make a single comment about Amaterasu's speed, while he openly praises Minato's speed and commented on Kakashi's jutsu. From what the manga shows, we know a few things:*
> *1) Zetsu's comments were based on what he heard, not on what he knew, and he didn't know about Susanoo.
> 2) Amaterasu is NOT instant, it has a traveling time and can be blocked or dodged
> 3) Even when Amaterasu lands, it takes a good amount of time before it burns you to death.
> 4) The fastest target Amaterasu hit in the history of the manga is CS Sasuke.*


To finish up what I was saying earlier. 

Amaterasu is unavoidable due to two functions the speed in which is deployed(which was never commented ON BY ANYONE, KIRIN WAS DEEMED UNAVOIDABLE DUE TO SPEED, not Amaterasu), and it's ability to be KITED BY THE USER.

We've only seen a KITED amaterasu twice. One when Itachi had it follow Sasuke. The second was when Sasuke used it to form a ring around him and Itachi.

To completely avoid Amaterasu one has to essentially outpace the sharingan, not merely the initial cast of Amaterasu itself. Such is why until today, only A has manage to completely AVOID THE JUTSU. Sasuke avoided the initial conflagration, but ultimately failed to escape Itachi's gaze. Note the words on that panel "the black flames will converge on exactly that spot"

In short if a sharingan user is capable of tracking you with his gaze, he can hit you with Amaterasu.(Hence is why no opponent since A, has avoided it)



> **Note**
> *I didn't add the scan of Karin getting hit by Amaterasu because I didn't think it was legit for a real debate. *


No, you didn't add the scan because you wanted to be taken as slightly credible, but then again Iphr0z3nI probably put an end to that anyways.



> *Now it is time to look at kamui.....*


A jutsu that hasn't killed.

A jutsu that hasn't been utilized offensively in a hot minute.

A jutsu that requires two usages FEAT WISE to match Amaterasu, not Amaterasu + Enton + Enton Kagutsuchi, as it should be.

Yes, let's look at Kamui which shouldn't take too long seeing as it's.......



> We know that Kamui is more advanced than Minato/Tobirama's flying thunder god jutsu:
> initial conflagration


Yet it lost to Minato's.

So you are implementing statements for one, and not the others? Way to damage your credibility even further, mate.

It was cited to be more advance due to requiring no hand seals, yet it was proven to be much slower than Minato's variation, right.

And if I recall correctly Amaterasu proved to be faster than the variation of Kamui in question. 



> Diedara says that Kakashi's dojutsu is on the same level of Itachi, even though Kakashi's skill with kamui is horrible at the time:
> Amaterasu proved to be faster than the variation of Kamui


I don't think the statement was referencing skill anymore than it was arbitrating that Kamui was very similar to Amaterasu.

And did we really need a statement to conclude that? 



> Minato says that Kamui is a greater space-time jutsu than his own and the second's:
> Amaterasu proved to be faster than the variation of Kamui


You already stated such above, stop repeating points mate.

I understand Kamui's resume is lacking, but you knew that coming out the gate.

For all of Kamui's hype it doesn't compare to Amaterasu's.
For all of Kamui's feats it doesn't compare to Amaterasu's.

Kamui is still operating on mostly paper potential.
It's potential to kill up until this point only exist within the minds of fanboys.


Kamui vs. Amaterasu isn't even a legitimate debate at this point because as dehyped as Amaterasu has been, Kamui GG has been made to be even more of a joke.

"This time I'll make the Juubi vanish?" Yeah right Kakashi.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2013)

> *Kamui's speed*
> 
> Here we see Kakashi use kamui on Sasuke's Susanoo arrow, keep in mind that this is, in fact, Sasuke's strongest and fastest attack before he gained EMS. The Susanoo arrow is the one jutsu of Sasuke's that Danzou could not physically dodge:
> Yeah right Kakashi
> Yeah right Kakashi


The same Sasuke arrow that was avoided by Kabuto?

Yet Amaterasu managed to outpace that same Kabuto?

And as I showed you earlier Amaterasu actually proved to be faster than Obito's Kamui.



> Yet Amaterasu managed to outpace that same Kabuto
> Yet Amaterasu managed to outpace that same Kabuto



Amaterasu again is faster.



> Later we see Kakashi use kamui so fast that Obito didn't notice it; moreover, his kamui was able to reach Naruto's bunshin faster than Obito's kamui attack, even though Obito was face to face with Naruto:
> faster
> faster
> faster


Again, Amaterasu already outpaced Obito, so what is your point?



> *Now it is time to rewind...*.


No, now is time for Iphr0z3nI to CASH OUT, and tell you what you have left after he "disfigure your member
then give you your grill back like
we just wanna see where your skills at"

And the answer is a big fat nothing. You have nothing but contradictions, nothing but half truths, nothing but the same bias bullshit I originally predicted your argument was.

Note that I skipped to your conclusion, and deduced EVERYTHING.....

Before I even started chopping your fable, I already predicted the outcome of this dealing. The reason behind such is that Kamui DOESN'T HAVE AMATERASU'S RESUME, period. 

Kamui has only been fully featured on the defensive end. Kamui is only depicted to be broken on the defensive end. Offensively, it's lacking. Offensively it's kept on a much tighter leash than Amaterasu and any of it's variants.

Amaterasu/Enton feat wise, IN TERMS OF A BALANCE SHOWCASING of offensive and defensive escapades, can only be matched by Amaterasu among the list of sharingan abilities.

In an effort to better implement Kamui on the offensive end, it's been given usages such as this, this, and this. All of which are inferior to one being able to shape the actual enton into weapons, etc.

The only way to get a Kamui(offensively) to be as haxed and deadly as an Amaterasu is to warp ones head, a usage in which has ONLY BEEN TRIED TWICE.

How, how does one cite one is deadlier when one has NEVER KILLED EVEN FODDER?



> From what we know, Minato is the fastest person in the manga, let's take a look at his fight with a young Obito:
> 
> Here, Minato, the same guy who Raikage praises as the fastest person alive, says that his fight with Obito comes down to who can attack a split second earlier:
> Link removed
> ...


He still won, and again Amaterasu has already proven to be faster than that variation of Kamui.



> *Summing up some quick facts:*
> *1) Deidara compared Kakashi's dojutsu with Itachi's back when Kakashi wasn't good with kamui.
> 2) Minato, the fastest man alive gave kamui credit for it's speed, even while being used by a young Obito. The Raikage, on the other hand, a slower fighter, had nothing to say about the speed of Amaterasu.
> 3) Kakashi's kamui is even faster than Obito's.*


1.Is an interpretation and a baseless one. It only serves to link Kamui origin to Amaterasu, no different than the later citing that the rasengan was inspired by the tailed beast bomb.
2.Minato never gave it credit for it's speed, he gave it credit for it not requiring hand seals. It's more advance because it didn't require hand seals or tags as Kakashi cited. Minato was simply reiterating what Kakashi already cited in greater detail.(You would be alright but you lying in your lines)
3. Kakashi's Kamui is only faster than Obito's ability to warp targets, which was noted to be slower than Obito's ability to warp himself.(Iphr0z3nI does it better)

So no, Kakashi's Kamui ability to warp targets is faster than Obito's, but that's not surprising considering he's able to warp targets from afar. 



> The feats and statements above make it obvious that kamui is faster than Amaterasu.


What feats and statements?

Your feat argument is crushed with a head to head comparison.
Your feat argument is crushed with the fact that only THREE OF THE FIFTEEN SHOWCASING OF AMATERASU ACTUALLY TRAVELED.

Kamui AT IT'S MOST DEADLIEST has proven to be slower than Amaterasu. I don't think Amaterasu would have took several panels to affect either deidara's arm or the Gedo Mazo's head.

There isn't a single statement that hypes Kamui's speed, where as Amaterasu has the "unavoidable" statement.



> If there is any doubt, think of this. _*Obito's kamui is slower than Kakashi's, yet the fight against Madara came down to a split second, and who attacked first. Sasuke fired off Amaterasu at Raikage (who is slower than Minato) first, and the attack was easily dodged without any comment  or worry about the jutsu's speed.*_


And Raikage until this day is the only person to COMPLETELY DODGE AMATERASU.

Considering Kamui relies on placing a barrier on a focal point, I'm willing to think Raikage would have no trouble doing the same to Kamui from the same MS Sasuke.

If your argument is "Coming down to a split second" what the fuck do you think this or this was? If those two instances weren't split second differentiation's I don't know what to tell you. Sigh, your arguments are weak. WEEAAAK

Anyone backing this shit clearly didn't cipher through it. 




> Finally, to cap this off, we will revisit the killing power of both jutsu. As we seen in the Amaterasu section, once the attack lands, it doesn't immediately kill you. It burns you and eventually it should kill you; however, the time it takes to die gives you enough time to think of a counter or escape. Once kamui lands; however, it automatically teleports whatever it hits. In Kakashi's case, the wrap should happen around the same speed, if not faster than Minato's teleportation speed (unless you think Obito's kamui never improved over the years).


And Kamui once it land doesn't immediately kill you, hence is why it's death tole is 

Note that teleporting doesn't = killing. So why oh why would you make this an argument on which jutsu kills faster?

Note that you've not put up much of an argument in regards to Kamui being deadlier. Note that Kamui has only ended a FIGHT ONCE. Against Torun and Fu if I recall, correctly.

Amaterasu concluded the fight against Bee, A(arguably), White Zetsu, his clones, numerous summons and several Juubi off spring.

Fuck killing, Amaterasu merely transcending beyond the DEPLOYMENT stage is a plus one.

Kamui offensively has been molded into a support/weapon thrower. So much for transporting them to the Kamui plane.



> **Final Verdict**
> From what the manga has shown, kamui is both faster and deadlier than Amaterasu. As I said earlier, if I missed anything important, please provide a scan so that we can add it to this thread.



Hamaru, Hamaru what was this? WHAT WAS THIS?

Between the lying and the selective reading, what possessed you to think this was supposed to end anything?

Why is Kamui allowed to utilize ALL ASPECTS OF IT'S REPRESENTATION. Why is Amaterasu only allowed to utilize the bad representations of it's other representations?

You want to make a Kamui vs. Amaterasu debate, then PLEASE INCORPORATE Sasuke's mastery of ENTON FLAMES PERIOD.

Comparing Kamui and Amaterasu you'd quickly run into a wall when trying to compare them offensively. Kamui has only been the better jutsu defensively, and Amaterasu still musters a strong showcasing in the defensive department. Offensively: Kamui cannot compare in hype or feats, as it's mainly been utilized as support on the offensive end.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 10, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi's ama>Kakashi's Kamui>>>>>>>>Sasuke's ama.



as awesome as Itachi is 
Sasuke amaterasu has been noted to be better and itachi has been noted to be better at tsukuyomi
So 
Sasukes Amaterasu > Itachi's Amaterasu 
Itachi's Tsukuyomi >>>>> Sasuk?s Tsukuyomi


----------



## Ersa (Dec 10, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> as awesome as Itachi is
> Sasuke amaterasu has been noted to be better and itachi has been noted to be better at tsukuyomi
> So
> Sasukes Amaterasu > Itachi's Amaterasu
> Itachi's Tsukuyomi >>>>> Sasuk?s Tsukuyomi


Funnily enough, all of Amaterasu low-ends came from the Sauce. Itachi's burnt through the fire-proof toad stomach, Cerberus, Sasuke's Katon, Kabuto's senjutsu web and Sasuke's CS2 wing. It's never actually failed


----------



## Rios (Dec 10, 2013)

Sasuke burning the Hachibi is like meeeeeh that frog stomach was a much more impressive feat.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 10, 2013)

Itachi's has never failed against mere clothing 

Sasuke hurt the Juubi after implanting Itachi's eyes


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 10, 2013)

TL;DR but my take on this is : 

Casting stage : Amaterasu is harder to avoid.

Post Casting : Kamu is more guaranteed to get the job done because there isn't anything can be done about Kamui if it lands. There are ways to get rid of Amaterasu.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 10, 2013)

This shouldn't even be discussed. Just compare Amaterasu feats from Itachi and Sasuke with Kamui feat from Kakashi against Pain, Sasuke of in the War Arc and lol. Actually even feats against Deidara are better (inspite of the fact that at the time Kakashi, for his own admission, didn't have perfect control of the size and the speed of the space-time barrier): Deidara couldn't avoid the warp (even if Kakashi needed some seconds to fully complete the action) and couldn't do anything to stop or counter it, he was lucky that Kakashi missed slightly from the head to the arm, and then Kakashi warped away a giant explosion who was growing really fast and big.

Kamui >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amaterasu.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Funnily enough, all of Amaterasu low-ends came from the Sauce. Itachi's burnt through the fire-proof toad stomach, Cerberus, Sasuke's Katon, Kabuto's senjutsu web and Sasuke's CS2 wing. It's never actually failed



Sasuke's burn the Hachibi, Raikage's arm, Danzou, white zetsu, zetsu fodder, the Juubi, counter Kabuto's senjutsu x3

With Naruto's help it's burn the Juubi..

Now compare Itachi's list to Sasuke's, it doesn't even come close. 
You got to do the research.


----------



## Kai (Dec 10, 2013)

As stated earlier, there are ways to get rid of Amaterasu even after damage has been delivered.

There is no such solution for Kamui.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2013)

Kai said:


> As stated earlier, there are ways to get rid of Amaterasu even after damage has been delivered.
> 
> There is no such solution for Kamui.



No such solutions for Kamui, A? 

Or is this a case of a jutsu never being relevant enough offensively to produce such solutions?

That's the argument here. It's a jutsu that has something vs. something that has NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO IT'S NAME (OFFENSIVELY)

How do you give more credit to a jutsu that doesn't even..... Put it this way, among Kakashi and Obito, there best one on one W is Torun and Fu, individuals Amaterasu would have have made short work of(theoretically)

Amaterasu vs. Kamui, the former racked up a list of suitable counters because IT'S BEEN HEAVILY UTILIZED IN IT'S MOST OPTIMAL MANNER. Kamui hasn't. Thus from a readers perspective, what makes Kamui above Amaterasu if I KNOW AS, A READER, IT'S NEVER GOING TO BE UTILIZED IN THE SAME MANNER OR SITUATIONS AS AMATERASU?  

As I reiterated in my previous post Amaterasu vs. Kamui is now a joke, as their track records aren't even remotely comparable. Kamui started off as brother, arguably better brother, to Amaterasu but it's sense taken a different turn. Kamui had to be tailored offensively, as this is now the MOST utilized way to implement Kamui offensively.

This thread talks about ending the debate.

But the debate should have ended with Kakashi couldn't even utilize Kamui to defeat deva path, yet Itachi was allowed to hit Nagato?

But the debate should have ended when Kakashi never advanced beyond the threats to do harm to both Gedo Mazo and the Juubi, yet Sasuke with Naruto assistance was allowed to set in on fire briefly.

Don't you see? Do you understand where we're at in the manga. Power scaling has virtually done away the old ideas. Long over are the days where big jutsu were the be all and end all, we're at the point in the manga where it's taking good guys over a hundred chapters to defeat a big baddies.(And both sides are tossing big jutsu after big jutsu)

Amaterasu isn't going to one shot a final villain, nor should you be expecting it to do so. Kamui isn't even going to come into play against the major baddies of the day, as Kakashi has had it all throughout part two, and his only major offensive feat was Deidara.(There's a reason why Kishi is now giving Kakashi other ways to utilize Kamui, that's because he knows as it is currently, the jutsu is rather useless against big baddies)

Finally the only Amaterasu answer that isn't possible against Kamui is the removal of the effected area, a feat in which that has required a third party or additional Kamui answer.

Kamui is a ninjutsu therefore against Juubito it would have been useless.
Kamui positions a barrier of chakara upon it's victim prior to transportation, therefore could be absorbed by a Rinnegan user or dispersed by shenrai tensei if quick enough.
Kamui is a site based jutsu therefore requires the user to be able to track it's victim.
Kamui is a site based jutsu therefore obscuring the victims vision is also possible.

No answers to Kamui one says, but there are several.

The only difference between Kamui and Amatearsu is what it does after it's deployed. It's what it does after it's deployed that has allowed the later to still mostly function as it was originally designed. 

Amaterasu may have become easier to counter throughout the manga, but it has become easier to execute and deploy as well. In short it's Sasuke's new rasengan, or in his case chidori. 

It allowed to work against lesser characters outright, and only partially successful as one rises up the power later. It's taking the same paths as many other jutsu, it's a much better fate IMO than simply killing off the jutsu all together, right?


----------



## Jagger (Dec 10, 2013)

Also, it's not Sasuke's fault every single enemy he faces can counter Amaterasu somehow.

Put Itachi in Sasuke's position and he wouldn't fare that much better, if better, at all.


----------



## Krippy (Dec 10, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Obviously I was talking about Minato's Hirashin, which makes him the fastest, Ei admits to that. Even with that jutsu Minato knew that it came down to a split second between him and Obito. As for your "instant" comment, which is faster the speed of sound or lightning?



So because Minato was being pressured by Kamui against Obito, which he had no knowledge about, you think you can compare it to Ei, who had knowledge on Amaterasu and a clear counter? lol they don't even work the same way. Kakashi's Kamui is the only one really comparable here. 



> Kagetsuchi moved around the same speed as FRS and it's flames doesn't kill on contact. That is, in no way, better than kamui.



It killed the Juubi fodder pretty easily. Stop trying to compare jutsu that work differently. Kagetsuchi is far more versatile that Kamui.



> Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was canceled by Danzou.



No, Sasuke ended the techinique once he was paralyzed. Don't see how this goes against anything I said.



> Only kamui has dealt with kamui.



Only Kagetsuchi has been delt with by another Uchiha.

Only Tsukuyomi has been delt with by another Uchiha. 

You see where this is going.



> Also, Kakashi is top tier.





lolno. Kakashi is a bit stronger than Gai, who is a high-tier.

Naruto, Sasuke, Madara, Obito, Hashirama, Minato and any other legit top-tier would kick his throat in.



> Fact is that kamui has better speed feats than Amateratsu, if you have a feat to prove otherwise, feel free to post it.



Nope. Your "facts" hold no bearing as they fail to prove that Kamui is indeed faster and Amaterasu undeniably has a slower activation speed.



Jagger said:


> Sasuke's Amaterasu isn't even that weaker than Itachi's.
> 
> It's not Sasuke's fault everytime he has used it on a target, it has a convenient counter for the flames. Put Itachi in the same kind of situations and it'd fail as well.
> 
> ...



Not to mention Sasuke was actively arresting the flames.



Kyokan said:


> Funnily enough, all of Amaterasu low-ends came from the Sauce. Itachi's burnt through the fire-proof toad stomach, Cerberus, Sasuke's Katon, Kabuto's senjutsu web and Sasuke's CS2 wing. It's never actually failed



It failed against Nagato.


----------



## Kai (Dec 10, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Kamui is a ninjutsu therefore against Juubito it would have been useless.
> Kamui positions a barrier of chakara upon it's victim prior to transportation, therefore could be absorbed by a Rinnegan user or dispersed by shenrai tensei if quick enough.
> Kamui is a site based jutsu therefore requires the user to be able to track it's victim.
> Kamui is a site based jutsu therefore obscuring the victims vision is also possible.
> ...


Nobody said there are no answers to Kamui. The same _preemptive_ counters for Amaterasu can also be Kamui, but there are no answers for Kamui after the area has been warped, unlike Amaterasu. 

3rd Raikage's durability can withstand Amaterasu for a period of time but that will not be the case for Kamui, which distorts the very space his body occupies. 

Amaterasu is not as fast as S/T ninjutsu.



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> Amaterasu may have become easier to counter throughout the manga, but it has become easier to execute and deploy as well. In short it's Sasuke's new rasengan, or in his case chidori.


Amaterasu is no easier to execute and deploy than Kamui, both of which charge a physical toll on the user's MS. This can be seen in Kakashi and Itachi respectively.

But if you want to bring up distinct advantages in EMS, then Senju DNA is fair game in which case, Tobi's Kamui is executed far more frequently and with ease than Sasuke's Amaterasu.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 10, 2013)

Kamui is faster than Amaterasu? 

When Kakashi tried to Kamui the Mazou statue, Obito had enough time to beat Naruto out of the way, dodge Gai and jump through shower of rocks before interrupting the process.

Then again, that was pretty much the size limit for a Kamui warp; it may have been slowing it down.


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 10, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> Wow, T-bag, you opened up my eyes. Statements are always the truth in manga, now I see
> 
> So Kiba will become Hokage...so will Naruto and Sasuke....oh, and Chouji, oh yeah, and Sakura too!!!
> 
> ...



seems obvious to me now that 

1) you cant read with context
2) dont understand the difference between, a char just saying something for the sake of saying it (or trash talking) and when the author is reaching out to the readers

you're literally terrible at comprehension and im not even trying to be rude. i wonder how u got this far without dropping it half way.  your OP proves this.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 10, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Funnily enough, all of Amaterasu low-ends came from the Sauce. Itachi's burnt through the fire-proof toad stomach, Cerberus, Sasuke's Katon, Kabuto's senjutsu web and Sasuke's CS2 wing. It's never actually failed



Jutsu accuracy is different from jutsu strength and versatility 
Itachi has used Amaterasu in more suitable situations cause he's smarter than sauce 
But his Amaterasu is still inferior to sasukes as sasuke can also use Enton and coat his susanoo with it... This should be eminent enough that sasukes Amaterasu is better than itachis 
Deal with it


----------



## HoriMaori (Dec 10, 2013)

Kamui has 3 forms:
- Kamui warp projection (Kakashi)
- Kamui intangibilty (Obito)
- Kamui self teleport (Obito)

As a whole, it is very versatile and turns the user into a very difficult opponent without intel. Even with intel, the right combonation of abilities is required to defeat it, and they need to be used correctly. It's evasive capabilities alone make it valuable. It made a boy actually compete (briefly) with Yondaime Hokage


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2013)

Kai said:


> Nobody said there are no answers to Kamui. The same _preemptive_ counters for Amaterasu can also be Kamui, but there are no answers for Kamui after the area has been warped, unlike Amaterasu.


There isn't? You sure about that?

The same LAG TIME was exhibited when attempting to warp Deidara's arm.

So no it isn't always instant. Especially when attempting to warp specific body parts oppose to the shinobi itself.




> 3rd Raikage's durability can withstand Amaterasu for a period of time but that will not be the case for Kamui, which distorts the very space his body occupies.


Yet it's not death...

Are w discussing killing? Or W's.

Amaterasu landing on the 3rd Raikage would equate to a death sentence, without amputation. 



> Amaterasu is not as fast as S/T ninjutsu.


Read my previous entry.

Amaterasu blitz Obito, mate.



> Amaterasu is no easier to execute and deploy than Kamui, both of which charge a physical toll on the user's MS. This can be seen in Kakashi and Itachi respectively.


Referring to Sasuke, the sole successor to Amaterasu.

The jutsu itself is very spammable. 



> But if you want to bring up distinct advantages in EMS, then Senju DNA is fair game in which case, Tobi's Kamui is executed far more frequently and with ease than Sasuke's Amaterasu.


It's not a distinct advantage this is simply the current situation for Amaterasu.

Tobi's Kamui serves as both his Amaterasu and Susano'o.
Sasuke's Amaterasu/Enton possesses way more offensive feats than that of Tobi and Kakashi put together. I don't know where you are going with this, but I've already made a thorough case for Amaterasu above.

When Kakashi or Obito accumulates Sasuke or/and Itachi's feats offensively  with Kamui, then we'll talk.

For now Kamui is most certainly a defensive/support first jutsu. Such is how it's been depicted, such is were it stands.


----------



## lordcloud121 (Dec 10, 2013)

Excellent post, I enjoyed the read.

But clearly Kamui is better because i's Kamui


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 10, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> -snip-


1) We are not going to revisit the whole, "that wasn't amaterasu against Gaara" thing. That was solved back in what, page 1? 

2) Do you even look at the scans that you post while you are talking s#@t? 
In this one that you posted, the manga says that amaterasu is appearing. In case you didn't know "appearing" isn't something used for "instant". At the very least, it should say appearing suddenly or something to that affect. Also, Itachi was already putting up some resistance with his own attack before he activated amaterasu:
Sealing tags

In this scan, Obito knew it was coming BEFORE amaterasu actually formed. Notice he said "impossible" while looking at his own shoulder before the flames hit him, in which case, it didn't even burn through Obito's shirt. 
Sealing tags
Sealing tags

In this one, which you also posted, I'd hope Sasuke could use amaterasu on his own Susanoo with good speed, but given that it was already dodged, it once again doesn't prove that it is instant, just fast:
Sealing tags

3) The argument about amaterasu lacking destructive power when compared to kamui isn't solely based on it not burning through Raikage's shield. There is also the fact that it didn't cause major damage to Karin, Hachibi screamed a bit but once the fire was gone, he was acting as if nothing happened, after Sasuke slipped out of the attack, he was fine, long story short, when the flames are gone, it doesn't leave any major burns. 

4) It doesn't matter how hot fire has to be to melt sand. According to people on these forums all statements are supposed to be true, which would include amaterasu being as hot as the sun, which is obviously proven false. 

5) Be honest with yourself. Tell me who would not get killed from a direct hit from kamui who isn't named Obito. 





fior fior said:


> Kamui is faster than Amaterasu?
> 
> When Kakashi tried to Kamui the Mazou statue, Obito had enough time to beat Naruto out of the way, dodge Gai and jump through shower of rocks before interrupting the process.
> 
> Then again, that was pretty much the size limit for a Kamui warp; it may have been slowing it down.


Kakashi stated that the problem was the size of the GM. We seen that after he was able to get his chakra restored, he used kamui on Hachibi with extreme speed. 



T-Bag said:


> seems obvious to me now that
> 
> 1) you cant read with context
> 2) dont understand the difference between, a char just saying something for the sake of saying it (or trash talking) and when the author is reaching out to the readers
> ...



You can't have it both ways. You sit here and say that you don't care about feats, only statements count. Then after seeing how many stupid statements are in the manga, you change your tune to, oh wait no, not all statements count, just the ones I want to believe. 

There is a phrase that has long lived the test of time, "Actions speak louder than words". If actions contradict statements that have been made, then the statement is obviously false.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 10, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> ill twist that.
> 
> minato beat him.
> tobi was afraid of itachi
> ...



As usual the Itachi twists are wrong. Itachi was afraid hence he avoided; Obito clearly showed Sasuke was more important to him. Itachi was a simple puppet to groom Sasuke.

Minato beat him, but Kishi attributed it to Obito rushing due to Kurama's summoning time. Plus Minato said a second could determine the fight... still sasys a lot.

Kamui is so OP that it the original user had to get rid of the offensive one. 

No matter what you say, fact is: with that one jutsu Obito was able to fight Gai, Kakashi and two perfect Jinchuriki. With Amaterasu and more, Itachi needed help from people stronger than him to stand a chance against the big boys.

So no, Itachi is by far not a good measure to determine Amaterasu's effectiveness relative to Kamui.

Another portrayal argument:
Amaterasu evolved i.e. Kagutsuchi enhanced by a Kurama powered FRS... was easily dealt with by the Juubi.

Yet Obito considered Kamui (against the Juubi) to be a legitimate threat i.e. unlike an enhanced Amaterasu, Kamui could actually _end_ the Juubi.

Amaterasu and Kamui: with the feats, results and portrayal around both jutsu. It is obvious Kishi already ranks Kamui above Amaterasu.


----------



## Kai (Dec 10, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> There isn't? You sure about that?
> 
> The same LAG TIME was exhibited when attempting to warp Deidara's arm.
> 
> So no it isn't always instant. Especially when attempting to warp specific body parts oppose to the shinobi itself.


Sounds like a troll response on your end. Typically when discussing counters to a jutsu you don't present the same exact jutsu.

That's like me presenting this as a main counter to Amaterasu.


So yes, Obito's left eye can counter his right eye 



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> Yet it's not death...
> 
> Are w discussing killing? Or W's.
> 
> Amaterasu landing on the 3rd Raikage would equate to a death sentence, without amputation.


Under no circumstances would Amaterasu kill 3rd Raikage upon first contact. He'd hold out for a while due to monstrous durability. 

Durability can stall Amaterasu.
Durability can not stall Kamui.



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> Read my previous entry.
> 
> Amaterasu blitz Obito, mate.


Obito got rid of it, mate.

Let's look at what's likely. Itachi couldn't end Obito through a more direct means of Amaterasu with his own eyes. He would have ended a global threat with one jutsu. Obito's Kamui execution is that fast that he can even step up with Minato. 

Ultimately, the Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu was a fail safe on someone who was never expected to use a MS jutsu with a regular Sharingan. It was a complete and utter shock.



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> The jutsu itself is very spammable.
> 
> It's not a distinct advantage this is simply the current situation for Amaterasu.


By no means was Amaterasu ever a spammable jutsu for Itachi during his lifetime.



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> When Kakashi or Obito accumulates Sasuke or/and Itachi's feats offensively with Kamui, then we'll talk.


Bro, the manga has shown Hiraishin get rid of Amaterasu's flames *after* contact was made.

Minato states "whoever strikes first will win" in a contest between his Hiraishin and Tobi's Kamui.



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> For now Kamui is most certainly a defensive/support first jutsu. Such is how it's been depicted, such is were it stands.


Hardly.

Tobi's execution timing with Kamui would not go down to the wire against Minato if that were the case.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 10, 2013)

This is the kind of discussion that needs to be avoided, lol.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 11, 2013)

Kai said:


> Sounds like a troll response on your end. Typically when discussing counters to a jutsu you don't present the same exact jutsu.
> 
> That's like me presenting this as a main counter to Amaterasu.
> 
> ...


We're discussing speed of the jutsu, champ.

There was a very noticeable gap between Kamui's deployment and the actual transmigration.

My assessment is merely trying to disprove your instant theory. It's not always instant, as is Amaterasu. 




> Under no circumstances would Amaterasu kill 3rd Raikage upon first contact. He'd hold out for a while due to monstrous durability.


 

You sure about that?)(As Sasuke doesn't have to deploy the traditional Amaterasu, he could potentially pierce through the shroud and potentially Raikage's body)

The trouble back with your argument is that we really don't have an actual time or confirmation of death from Amaterasu. The flames merely engulf the victim, and the flames eventually spread to cover ones entire body.

Thus Raikage's durability would only equate to a more AGONIZING experience before eventual death. Much better than simply waiting things out in the Kamui dimension, right?


> Durability can stall Amaterasu.
> Durability can not stall Kamui.


Kamui doesn't kill mate, it's transmigration.



> Obito got rid of it, mate.


Irrelevant as the discussion is speed, right?



> Let's look at what's likely. Itachi couldn't end Obito through a more direct means of Amaterasu with his own eyes. He would have ended a global threat with one jutsu. Obito's Kamui execution is that fast that he can even step up with Minato.


No sir.

Obito's Kamui proved to be slower than that of Harashin, hence he lost the battle of speed.

He also lost the battle of speed against Amaterasu, mate.




> Ultimately, the Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu was a fail safe on someone who was never expected to use a MS jutsu with a regular Sharingan. It was a complete and utter shock.


But Amaterasu telegraphs it's execution, mr.
Let's not pretend that Obito wasn't on full alert. 

He even reiterated something before being engulfed by the flames.

Amaterasu speed > Kamui(Obito) mate.




> By no means was Amaterasu ever a spammable jutsu for Itachi during his lifetime.


For Itachi, not Sasuke.

During Itachi's life time Amaterasu didn't possess half as many counters.
During Itachi's life time Amaterasu was still treated as a trump card oppose to a chidori/Katon alternative.



> Bro, the manga has shown Hiraishin get rid of Amaterasu's flames *after* contact was made.


Uhh...what?

Bro, if you're referring too this. Show me where the flames successfully manage to engulf Minato, on that panel?



> Minato states "whoever strikes first will win" in a contest between his Hiraishin and Tobi's Kamui.


Way ahead of your buddy, but how's this relevant considering we have a direct comparison between Amaterasu and Kamui?




> Hardly.
> 
> Tobi's execution timing with Kamui would not go down to the wire against Minato if that were the case.


Yet, how is this relevant considering we have a direct comparison?


----------



## Psp123789 (Dec 11, 2013)

Kamui is overall better than amaterasu. It allowed Obito to fight a top tier and 3 high tiers. He would have gotten badly raped if he had amaterasu instead of kamui.


----------

