# Ace, Sabo, and Luffy vs. Aokiji and Kizaru



## MYJC (Mar 12, 2018)

Match takes place in Dressrosa. Current Luffy and Sabo, and Ace as he was at his most powerful. Manga knowledge, no restrictions. Both Sabo and Ace have the Mera Fruit. 

Who takes it and whats the diff?


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## Djomla (Mar 12, 2018)

Ace is a non factor here seeing how he either sucks at AH or is just a retard when it comes to battle. Luffy and Sabo ain't no threat to these two monsters.

Admirals low midd diff.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 4


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## Gohara (Mar 12, 2018)

Ace's character, Sabo, and Luffy win in my opinion.  Luffy is physically superior, likely has superior defense, and has comparable Haki to the Admirals.  Luffy's speed is also significantly superior to Aokiji's and feats wise isn't inferior to Kizaru's.  So basically Luffy's stats are comparable to the Admirals'.  Sabo's arguably are as well.  Plus Sabo has matched up on par with an Admiral.  Ace's character gives the team more of an edge.  The team wins with no less than around high difficulty.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 4


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## Luceus (Mar 12, 2018)

I think they can only take out one at once

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Mar 12, 2018)

Either Admiral defeats Luffy with mid (high) - high (low) diff while Sabo is defeated by the other with solid mid diff and Ace gets killed in the crossfire.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 12, 2018)

Ace isn't going to make a difference here. Aokiji and Kizaru win.


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## Luke (Mar 13, 2018)

Admirals win. Kizaru defeats Luffy (around the same level of difficulty he'd have against Marco), and Aokiji wins a close fight against Sabo and Ace.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 13, 2018)

The elemental factor is being underestimated. Sabo and Ace would defeat Aokiji.
Ace can still be a factor against Aokiji due to how the elements work against one another. Aokiji can't deal with Sabo and Ace at the same time. Luffy can at least give Kizaru a mid-diff fight at this point.

I'm going with the brothers, as Aokiji would have his hands full and go down quickly.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Luke (Mar 13, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> The elemental factor is being underestimated. Sabo and Ace would defeat Aokiji.



Kuzan managed to last an incredibly long amount of time against Akainu despite being at a disadvantage. I don't see Sabo + Ace being as strong as Sakazuki at this point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 14, 2018)

Djomla said:


> *Ace is a non factor here* seeing how he either sucks at AH or is just a retard when it comes to battle. Luffy and Sabo ain't no threat to these two monsters.
> 
> Admirals low midd diff.



Didn't a tired Ace stop an Aokiji attack instantly? I'd hardly call that non factor.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Djomla (Mar 14, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Didn't a tired Ace stop an Aokiji attack instantly? I'd hardly call that non factor.



He did. But not a single Admiral out of these two went serious at Marineford.

Akainu killed Ace with no sweat, didn't give a shit about two commanders with Haki going at him for a kill and it took that guy 10 fucking days to defeat Aokiji even though he had elemental advantage. That's a serious Admiral fight. 

So yeah, Ace who is either really bad at AH or is a retard when it comes to any battle sense, is literally a non factor.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 14, 2018)

Djomla said:


> He did. But not a single Admiral out of these two went serious at Marineford.
> 
> Akainu killed Ace with no sweat, didn't give a shit about two commanders with Haki going at him for a kill and it took that guy 10 fucking days to defeat Aokiji even though he had elemental advantage. That's a serious Admiral fight.
> 
> So yeah, Ace who is either really bad at AH or is a retard when it comes to any battle sense, is literally a non factor.



A non factor is someone who can't make a difference. Ace stopped an admiral level attack. We can't speculate on how much Aokiji was or wasn't holding back, but he stopped an admiral level attack in its tracks. 

If he can stop those attacks, he can help Sabo or Luffy avoid them at the worst, and at best the amount of firepower he has that can stop an attack like that will certainly hurt. 

He's also not retarded in combat, especially since he fought Jinbe (who specializes in combat) for days on end and was said to have potential on Luffy's level. He was also a Yonkou commander. Ace isn't as strong as any of the fighters, but he isn't some gag character here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 14, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Ace stopped an admiral level attack.


Doesn't mean much. Daz Bones and Crocodile did the same thing with Mihawk.

Anyway, Ace lost to Yami Teach, the same Teach who got destroyed by a half dead Whitebeard. Ace just isn't strong enough to make a difference in this fight.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## DoctorLaw (Mar 14, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Doesn't mean much. Daz Bones and Crocodile did the same thing with Mihawk.
> 
> Anyway, Ace lost to Yami Teach, the same Teach who got destroyed by a half dead Whitebeard. Ace just isn't strong enough to make a difference in this fight.



There were a handful of people at that war that could stop that attack, and Ace was one of them. He can stop some Aokiji attacks, ergo he's useful in a fight against Aokiji. He makes a difference, its not a stretch to believe that.

To be fair that same WB put Akainu in the ground moments after he got his face blown off, minutes after a heart attack. I don't think it makes Teach look all that weak to lose to him, especially since BB usually gets wrecked when he's cocky (Luffy punching him, Ace shooting him, WB cutting him, Magellan poisoning him).

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 14, 2018)

Admirals win mid diff.

Would normally be mid-high diff but Luffy or Sabo will get hit hard when they're forced to save Ace from Kizaru's lasers


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## Kai (Mar 17, 2018)

Ace is for sure the weak link here; none of his other skills show he can even hurt an Admiral and Sabo isn't up to par with that yet. Although he is close now neither is Luffy yet.

Admirals high diff this.


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## Fly God Fly (Apr 10, 2018)

Get touched by Aokoji and it's game...

I really doubt that Aokoji vs Akainu fought for 10 straight days. A few seconds of rest or pausing or taking a break or collapsing from exhaustion and it's game 

Can't they just charge and it's Ice *Time*

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 10, 2018)

Fly God Fly said:


> Get touched by Aokoji and it's game...
> 
> I really doubt that Aokoji vs Akainu fought for 10 straight days. A few seconds of rest or pausing or taking a break or collapsing from exhaustion and it's game
> 
> Can't they just charge and it's Ice *Time*



Sabo and Ace can't be frozen. This thread more or less proves why the admirals are overrated.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## MO (Apr 10, 2018)

the admirals win high diff.


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## Quipchaque (Apr 11, 2018)

I think the admiral duo wins higher end of high diff.


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## Extravlad (Apr 12, 2018)

Akainu solos.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Apr 30, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> Akainu solos.


 honestly he probably does. Sabo gets f'd due to matchup + being lower tierwise in general

Ace sucks

and Luffy can't win alone


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## Samehadaman (Apr 30, 2018)

I like that people arguing for elemental advantage also let the brothers team pick their opponents at will.
If it's a big deal why would the Admirals conveniently have Kizaru fight only Luffy and let Aokiji for the fire users?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 30, 2018)

Samehadaman said:


> I like that people arguing for elemental advantage also let the brothers team pick their opponents at will.
> If it's a big deal why would the Admirals conveniently have Kizaru fight only Luffy and let Aokiji for the fire users?


Well because Lord Luffy in G4 is arguably faster than Kizaru, so he'd force Kizaru to keep his attention on him. Lord Sabo vs Aokiji is already a fight that can go either way, so giving him Lord Ace would allow them to beat Aokiji without much of a problem, and then they'd help Lord Luffy with Kizaru.
But ofc, this is all just imo. : p

Reactions: Funny 3 | Friendly 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## ~Avant~ (May 3, 2018)

Once we get that Ace flashback in Wano I think things will change.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Extravlad (May 3, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Well because Lord Luffy in G4 is arguably faster than Kizaru,

Reactions: Like 1


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## Milkydean (May 3, 2018)

Samehadaman said:


> I like that people arguing for elemental advantage also let the brothers team pick their opponents at will.
> If it's a big deal why would the Admirals conveniently have Kizaru fight only Luffy and let Aokiji for the fire users?



Because there are 2 fire users?Both Sabo and Luffy are strong enough to hold off the admirals.Ace just joins against Aokiji.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (May 3, 2018)

Milkydean said:


> Because there are 2 fire users?Both Sabo and Luffy are strong enough to hold off the admirals.Ace just joins against Aokiji.


Ace is fodder to Admirals tho.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blacku (May 6, 2018)

Kizaru solo's.


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## Furinji Saiga (May 6, 2018)

Talk about a mismatch.
The ASL brothers are out of their depths here, they are facing two men who are far more experienced, powerful, and have them completely outmatched in terms of overall power whether its Haki or DF power. The Admirals have also shown to have outstanding team work. 

Aokiji and Kizaru take it mid diff at most.


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## Furinji Saiga (May 6, 2018)

~Avant~ said:


> Once we get that Ace flashback in Wano I think things will change.



Yeah we will learn that Ace is actually more powerful then Gol D Roger, and WB was forced to Seal off his power in seperate containers that he hid throghout the New World.

Only Luffy the one worthy of the Will of Ace will be able to find them and use them to become the PK.

/s

Seriously what will we learn that will change his overall standings in the series?
Hes a dead character,  and we have seen the level he was at in his fight against the likes of Jinbe, Blackbeard, and Akainu.

At the time of his death he was simply no match for people who are as powerful as the Admirals.


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## Gohara (May 6, 2018)

I agree that Ace isn't in the same league as the Admirals however there isn't really any evidence yet that Ace is nothing compared to the Admirals and if that were the case I don't see how Ace's character clashes evenly with Aokiji.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Blacku (May 6, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I agree that Ace isn't in the same league as the Admirals however *there isn't really any evidence yet that Ace is nothing compared to the Admirals and if that were the case I don't see how Ace's character clashes evenly with Aokiji*.



The downplay. 

Akainu defeats Ace with Zero difficulty. Akainu than takes 10 days to beat Aokiji. Ace only clashed evenly with Aokiji because Aokiji let him nothing else.


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## xmysticgohanx (May 6, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I agree that Ace isn't in the same league as the Admirals however there isn't really any evidence yet that Ace is nothing compared to the Admirals and if that were the case I don't see how Ace's character clashes evenly with Aokiji.



Akainu >>> BB w/ Gura + Yami >>> BB w/ Yami >>> Ace 

Akainu > Aokiji


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## Quipchaque (May 7, 2018)

Black otaku said:


> The downplay.
> 
> Akainu defeats Ace with Zero difficulty. Akainu than takes 10 days to beat Aokiji. Ace only clashed evenly with Aokiji because Aokiji let him nothing else.



You could just as easily say Ace let Aokiji clash evenly with him. It´s both completely baseless. Yes Ace is indeed outmatched by Aokiji but Ace also has the advantage which no matter how you look at it gives him the power to fight Aokiji on par. What feats can you even bring up that say otherwise? Any attack Aokiji has shown can be parried by the wide array of fire powers of Ace and it took an mountain level attack to defeat him. That´s no joke that an admiral can overcome just by "being stronger" especially if you add Sabo in that battle. I swear some people just have to be biased and can´t look rationally at things. "lol admiral stronger than ace and sabo so loool stooooomp" derpa derpaaa.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (May 8, 2018)

Intentionally taking a technique from Akainu to defend another character =/= being bested with no difficulty and there's no reason why Aokiji would intentionally allow Ace to successfully defend Luffy and match up on par with his character.

"Akainu >>> BB w/ Gura + Yami >>> BB w/ Yami >>> Ace"

I don't disagree with that ranking however I do respectfully disagree with the degree of differences between those characters because I would argue that Pre Time Skip Akainu somewhat > Pre Time Skip Quake Blackbeard > Pre Quake Blackbeard somewhat > Ace's character.


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## TheWiggian (May 8, 2018)

Ace got no business on the level of current Luffy and Sabo - Admirals. He is horribly outmatched and the best he can hope for is stopping 1-2 attacks and using himself as a meatshield.


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## Quipchaque (May 8, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Ace got no business on the level of current Luffy and Sabo - Admirals. He is horribly outmatched and the best he can hope for is stopping 1-2 attacks and using himself as a meatshield.



based on what? I ask what I asked Black otaku as well. What can Aokiji do that would make him win against Ace after 3 attacks? Back your arguments up for once.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (May 8, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> based on what? I ask what I asked Black otaku as well. What can Aokiji do that would make him win against Ace after 3 attacks? Back your arguments up for once.



Ace was shown to stop 1 attack from Aokiji and used himself as a meatshield against Akainu. I considered both these overwhelming feats of him against the Admirals. What do you want me to do more?


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## Quipchaque (May 8, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Ace was shown to stop 1 attack from Aokiji and used himself as a meatshield against Akainu. I considered both these overwhelming feats of him against the Admirals. What do you want me to do more?



Nothing I´m just asking why you think Ace would lose so quickly if Aokiji hasn´t shown the necessary feats for that? Aokiji´s attacks are basically irrelevant so I can´t see it going that smoothly.


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## TheWiggian (May 8, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nothing I´m just asking why you think Ace would lose so quickly if Aokiji hasn´t shown the necessary feats for that? Aokiji´s attacks are basically irrelevant so I can´t see it going that smoothly.



Well simply because a fellow Admiral who is basically equal to Aokiji 1 shotted Ace? It seems that Aokiji despite not having the feats for such statements magically was able to put permanent scars on Akainu who is superior to Ace during their fight.

Aokiji's attacks are not irrelevant for a top tier yet they are against someone like Ace? He's been shown to literally 1 shot Jozu a fellow Commander from the same crew. 

Plus 2 superior Commander's to Ace couldn't harm an Admiral who is more or less equal to Aokiji.

If you want to talk about match-ups be my guest, where was it stated that Aokiji's ice is inferior to Ace's fire?


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## Gohara (May 8, 2018)

Akainu one shotted Ace because Ace intentionally took that technique though.  Plus Akainu's firepower is significantly superior to Aokiji's.  So not only would a normal Ace vs. Akainu match up not necessarily play like that there's also Aokiji not having those same techniques as Akainu.  The Jozu vs. Aokiji example would make sense if we were discussing a distracted Ace.

Those same 2 Yonkou Commanders have shown even clashes against Admiral+ tier characters.  That doesn't necessarily mean that every single slash they use is going to work on an Admiral.  And one slash not working against an Admiral doesn't invalidate their previous feats against the Admirals.  It simply means that sometimes Admirals can avoid techniques from characters of that caliber.  The same how Lord Katakuri can do that against Luffy.  So Zoro's question stands.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (May 8, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Akainu one shotted Ace because Ace intentionally took that technique though.  Plus Akainu's firepower is significantly superior to Aokiji's.  So not only would a normal Ace vs. Akainu match up not necessarily play like that there's also Aokiji not having those same techniques as Akainu.  The Jozu vs. Aokiji example would make sense if we were discussing a distracted Ace.
> 
> Those same 2 Yonkou Commanders have shown even clashes against Admiral+ tier characters.  That doesn't necessarily mean that every single slash they use is going to work on an Admiral.  And one slash not working against an Admiral doesn't invalidate their previous feats against the Admirals.  It simply means that sometimes Admirals can avoid techniques from characters of that caliber.  The same how Lord Katakuri can do that against Luffy.  So Zoro's question stands.



Still ignoring that Akainu amd Aokiji got permanent scars after their fight? You really must've missed them, Aokiji is missing a leg and Akainu got scars on his face as we haven't seen his whole body yet we still can assume he got more injuries.

Also Aokiji did create the 1 arm Jozu. That and scars on Akainu easily throw this "Aokiji's attacks are not lethal" over board.

I don't remember Commander's fighting anyone stronger than Admiral's (not that there are alot of people stronger than them in the first place) and even then they basically lost in a single shot in a matter of a second.

His point doesn't stand as it got no legs to stand on in the first place.


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## landondonnovan (May 8, 2018)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Akainu >>> BB w/ Gura + Yami >>> BB w/ Yami >>> Ace



No fruit Black Beard hurt Shanks, he ain't weak, Ace getting alot of disrespect here.
However Admirals extreme diff.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Sherlōck (May 9, 2018)

What is ASL brothers going to do here? Get fisted? 

Either Aokiji or Kizaru alone is enough to take them down. The other can watch or hold the den den mushi to broadcast the fight throughout the NW.


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## Quipchaque (May 9, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Well simply because a fellow Admiral who is basically equal to Aokiji 1 shotted Ace? It seems that Aokiji despite not having the feats for such statements magically was able to put permanent scars on Akainu who is superior to Ace during their fight.
> 
> Aokiji's attacks are not irrelevant for a top tier yet they are against someone like Ace? He's been shown to literally 1 shot Jozu a fellow Commander from the same crew.
> 
> ...




As Gohara pointed out the 1-shot against Ace only happened because Akainu baited him into that situation and he has a devil fruit advantage as well. Yes Aokiji put scars on Akainu but how much difficulty did it require? Surely a lot so it doesn´t tell us much about the difficulty between Aokiji and Ace. All we can conclude from that is that Aokiji would beat Ace alone and that he would very likely need less than extreme difficulty that is literally it and I never argued against either of those 2 assertions.

They are irrelevant against Ace. How could they not be if we see Ace neutralizing a named attack from Aokiji with one of his own weakest attacks? Chances are that Aokiji only fared as well as he did against Akainu because he has superior haki or "just" very strong haki that makes it tough to beat him even with a DF advantage but again that is never what I suggested. I only said Ace can give him a run for his money. 1-shotting Jozu is irrelevant because Aokiji can almost 1-shot everybody that is caught off guard just like Akainu can 1-shot almost everybody that he gets to impale with his fists. That´s how their powers work and why they are implied to be above the standard admiral level.

Jozu did harm Aokiji and he is actually inferior to Marco who failed against Akainu so that is also a moot point because it clearly depends on which admiral we talk about and which commander we talk about and which kind of attacks and defenses the character uses in those scenarios. E.g. I have no doubt if Marco decided to use his claws against Aokiji instead of just kicking him away then Aokiji would have taken notable damage since that would be akin to a sword strike and he was in fact tangible when Marco attacked him. He didn´t break apart or anything he was hit clean. So ABC is not a good way to decide if Ace could hurt Aokiji but even if we assume he can´t (which to be fair is at least possible given the strength difference overall) that still wouldn´t mean he would be a non-factor. He can still serve as distraction or defense in a tag team battle with Sabo.

It wasn´t stated but it was shown. Or how else do you explain that the ice vaporized from Ace´s attack? And if it wasn´t superior to Aokiji´s then that would just make that feat all the more impressive. But mate seriously open your eyes. Just look at what the mera mera no mi which Sabo couldn´t even control did against Fujitora a fellow admiral. It gave him the capability to neutralize multiple attacks from Fujitora and in the end they came out of that scuffle as nigh-equal. Just because of that simple fruit without Sabo showing any visible devil fruit advantage or advanced skills that Ace didn´t have. That alone should give you a picture how powerful Ace´s fruit actually is and how much it can help even against admiral level fighters.

Add on top of that, that every single battle that Ace fought and lost was against opponents with DF advantages and that he couldn´t be put down by anything less than a mountain buster from Blackbeard or organ damage. AND that he can even fight for 5 days not too long after starting his journey, then you will realize that Ace is just not such a non-factor as you make him out to be. I just don´t see it happening that Aokiji can dispatch of him like low-diff style. Anything between mid-diff or lower end of high diff seems more likely to me. I tend to higher end of mid-diff and that is a very relevant fighter imo if you put him into a tag team battle with Sabo who has the same advantage and likely even greater strength.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (May 9, 2018)

Yami Blackbeard > Ace. Yami Blackbeard got fodderized by a half dead Whitebeard, who in that condition was weaker than any Admiral. Ergo, Ace gets fodderized by an Admiral.
Also, blocking one attack doesn't mean much. Case in point:



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Just look at what the mera mera no mi which Sabo couldn´t even control did against Fujitora a fellow admiral. It gave him the capability to neutralize multiple attacks from Fujitora *and in the end they came out of that scuffle as nigh-equal.*

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (May 9, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> As Gohara pointed out the 1-shot against Ace only happened because Akainu baited him into that situation and he has a devil fruit advantage as well. Yes Aokiji put scars on Akainu but how much difficulty did it require? Surely a lot so it doesn´t tell us much about the difficulty between Aokiji and Ace. All we can conclude from that is that Aokiji would beat Ace alone and that he would very likely need less than extreme difficulty that is literally it and I never argued against either of those 2 assertions.



Akainu one shotted Ace is a fact. No amount of excuses will change it anymore. Ace went against Akainu and got sodomized, why are you looking for excuses for Ace? All Admirals got overpowered logia powers and iam pretty sure they're all extremely lethal in their own way.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> They are irrelevant against Ace. How could they not be if we see Ace neutralizing a named attack from Aokiji with one of his own weakest attacks? Chances are that Aokiji only fared as well as he did against Akainu because he has superior haki or "just" very strong haki that makes it tough to beat him even with a DF advantage but again that is never what I suggested. I only said Ace can give him a run for his money. 1-shotting Jozu is irrelevant because Aokiji can almost 1-shot everybody that is caught off guard just like Akainu can 1-shot almost everybody that he gets to impale with his fists. That´s how their powers work and why they are implied to be above the standard admiral level.



What's the point here? Thanks for admitting how powerful the fruits of the Admirals are. 1 second of not concentrating and Ace is a goner. Backed up by the manga and you don't seem to disagree at all.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Jozu did harm Aokiji and he is actually inferior to Marco who failed against Akainu so that is also a moot point because it clearly depends on which admiral we talk about and which commander we talk about and which kind of attacks and defenses the character uses in those scenarios. E.g. I have no doubt if Marco decided to use his claws against Aokiji instead of just kicking him away then Aokiji would have taken notable damage since that would be akin to a sword strike and he was in fact tangible when Marco attacked him. He didn´t break apart or anything he was hit clean. So ABC is not a good way to decide if Ace could hurt Aokiji but even if we assume he can´t (which to be fair is at least possible given the strength difference overall) that still wouldn´t mean he would be a non-factor. He can still serve as distraction or defense in a tag team battle with Sabo.



Point is Ace got no Haki feats and if we take the novel into consideration it's only enough to defeat a VA who is leagues below a Admiral. I don't see Ace putting a single scratch on a logia Admiral and Sabo not being able to do anything against a tangible Admiral just further reinforces that point since he ate Ace's DF. Iam also not giving Ace Jozu's and Marco's haki feats since nothing suggest he could do the same. Marco being able to injure Aokiji with his talons is fanfic as it's never been shown and contradicts the showing against Akainu anyway.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> It wasn´t stated but it was shown. Or how else do you explain that the ice vaporized from Ace´s attack? And if it wasn´t superior to Aokiji´s then that would just make that feat all the more impressive. But mate seriously open your eyes. Just look at what the mera mera no mi which Sabo couldn´t even control did against Fujitora a fellow admiral. It gave him the capability to neutralize multiple attacks from Fujitora and in the end they came out of that scuffle as nigh-equal. Just because of that simple fruit without Sabo showing any visible devil fruit advantage or advanced skills that Ace didn´t have. That alone should give you a picture how powerful Ace´s fruit actually is and how much it can help even against admiral level fighters.



Ace vaporized it by continuously producing fire against said Ice block Aokiji send his way, that's all. There's nothing more to it, every discussion going further is assuming based on nothing. It never been stated Ace's fire was somehow a counter against Aokiji's Ice.
Sabo basically dodged gravity thrusts by being intangible with a logia, nothing more. He didn't neutralize said gravity, he escaped/dodged it. Also Sabo was nowhere close to Fujitora, he was literally helpless and could't put a single scratch on Issho despite the latter not even taking it seriously as shown later in the arc. Ace fruit is powerful but it does't give him any advantage except against fodders who could't use Haki.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Add on top of that, that every single battle that Ace fought and lost was against opponents with DF advantages and that he couldn´t be put down by anything less than a mountain buster from Blackbeard or organ damage. AND that he can even fight for 5 days not too long after starting his journey, then you will realize that Ace is just not such a non-factor as you make him out to be. I just don´t see it happening that Aokiji can dispatch of him like low-diff style. Anything between mid-diff or lower end of high diff seems more likely to me. I tend to higher end of mid-diff and that is a very relevant fighter imo if you put him into a tag team battle with Sabo who has the same advantage and likely even greater strength.



You can view Ace how you want. It's just doesn't stack up to the manga showings. Ace lost against Teach who got manhandled by a deathbed WB who was weaker than any Admiral at that point. The moment Ace decided to go against an Admiral he got quickly defeated. It just doesn't portray him as someone who can give Admirals a tough fight and Teach almost breaking his neck in a single chop honestly contradicts anything Oda wanted to build up by hyping his endurance and durability. Teach commented on it that it was a long time ago since Ace been hit the last time meaning his physical prowess heavily declined to before he got the fruit.


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## Gohara (May 9, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Still ignoring that Akainu amd Aokiji got permanent scars after their fight?



Nope.  It's not impossible for characters with inferior firepower to another character to create scars on their opponents.  I'm not necessarily suggesting that Aokiji's firepower is entirely lackluster.  Simply that it's not in the same league as Akainu's therefore using something that Akainu can do as an example doesn't necessarily translate as a feat for Aokiji.



TheWiggian said:


> Also Aokiji did create the 1 arm Jozu.



Including distractions however how would that come into play in a match up where if anything those Admirals will be distracted?



TheWiggian said:


> and even then they basically lost in a single shot in a matter of a second.



Ace and Jozu are the only characters that have.  However Ace intentionally takes that technique and Jozu is distracted.  Plus I'm not sure that we can characterize it like that even including those contexts.  Ace is significantly battle worn going into that Arc and Jozu matches up on par with Aokiji for more than a chapter prior to that so that's hardly a second.


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## TheWiggian (May 9, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Nope.  It's not impossible for characters with inferior firepower to another character to create scars on their opponents.  I'm not necessarily suggesting that Aokiji's firepower is entirely lackluster.  Simply that it's not in the same league as Akainu's therefore using something that Akainu can do as an example doesn't necessarily translate as a feat for Aokiji.



It was enough to scar Akainu permanently and defeat Jozu in a blink of an eye.



Gohara said:


> Including distractions however how would that come into play in a match up where if anything those Admirals will be distracted?



We already saw what happens when a Admiral is distracted or gets a cheapshot. Bloody cheek and bloody lip. When Admirals get in an attack on someone who is distracted or can't defend, the fight ends in their favour.



Gohara said:


> Ace and Jozu are the only characters that have.  However Ace intentionally takes that technique and Jozu is distracted.  Plus I'm not sure that we can characterize it like that even including those contexts.  Ace is significantly battle worn going into that Arc and Jozu matches up on par with Aokiji for more than a chapter prior to that so that's hardly a second.



Let's see Ace still got one shotted just as Jozu. Talking about baking and stonewalling isn't changing what the manga has shown. Commander's ain't outlasting Admirals and don't have enouh firrpower to put them down. Learn to live with that.

They take this match-up.


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## Quipchaque (May 9, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Yami Blackbeard > Ace. Yami Blackbeard got fodderized by a half dead Whitebeard, who in that condition was weaker than any Admiral. Ergo, Ace gets fodderized by an Admiral.
> Also, blocking one attack doesn't mean much. Case in point:


You are ignoring the context. You know very well that Blackbeard is cocky, even Whitebeard pointed that out as his big flaw. On top of that Whitebeard carried a weapon that isn´t affected by Blackbeard´s devil fruit and is also very likely a lot stronger physically than Aokiji. So all things considered while you bring up a legitimate argument, imo it is not enough to say that Aokiji outright destroys Ace. I will admit tho that I forgot that panel and underestimated the gap a little bit so I retract my statement about Ace possibly giving high diff. Mid diff at most.

The Fujitora vs Sabo argument stands though. Did it look to you like Sabo was about to lose? They were very evenly matched with Fujitora kinda surprising Sabo for 1 instance which is why I said NIGH equal. Also keep in mind Sabo never seriously attacked Fujitora. Neither with fire powers nor with haki claw attacks it was all just a "game" to both of them, don´t underestimate Sabo.


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## Daisuke Jigen (May 9, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are ignoring the context. You know very well that Blackbeard is cocky, even Whitebeard pointed that out as his big flaw.


Stop making up excuses. Cocky or not, the fact remains Whitebeard on death's door was still strong enough to cut Blackbeard down, and he felt like he needed to call in his crew to help finish the job. Yami Blackbeard and by extension Ace are fodder to Admirals, end of story.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> On top of that Whitebeard carried a weapon that isn´t affected by Blackbeard´s devil fruit and *is also very likely a lot stronger physically than Aokiji.*


Whitebeard on *death's door* is likely physically stronger than Aokiji? 


DiscoZoro20 said:


> The Fujitora vs Sabo argument stands though. Did it look to you like Sabo was about to lose? They were very evenly matched with Fujitora kinda surprising Sabo for 1 instance which is why I said NIGH equal.


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## Mr. Good vibes (May 9, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Stop making up excuses. Cocky or not, the fact remains Whitebeard on death's door was still strong enough to cut Blackbeard down, and he felt like he needed to call in his crew to help finish the job. Yami Blackbeard and by extension Ace are fodder to Admirals, end of story.
> 
> Whitebeard on *death's door* is likely physically stronger than Aokiji?


Your arguing with someone who still thinks Enel is anything more than fodder to the likes of Vergo and Law.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Quipchaque (May 9, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Akainu one shotted Ace is a fact. No amount of excuses will change it anymore. Ace went against Akainu and got sodomized, why are you looking for excuses for Ace? All Admirals got overpowered logia powers and iam pretty sure they're all extremely lethal in their own way.



I don´t see how that is an excuse you know that is true. Akainu himself admitted he has an devil fruit advantage and the 1-shot was Ace trying to shield Luffy. You can´t deny that it is simply true lol. That doesn´t mean Akainu didn´t 1-shot Ace however it means we don´t know if he could do that in an open battle. To me it looked like Akainu is fairly slow, he couldn´t catch a base luffy and Ace that were running away and Ace actually caught up to Akainu before he could reach Luffy. Also Buggy could dodge his attacks so no I do not believe for a single second Akainu could 1-shot Ace. That´s a bit too optimistic. 




> What's the point here? Thanks for admitting how powerful the fruits of the Admirals are. 1 second of not concentrating and Ace is a goner. Backed up by the manga and you don't seem to disagree at all.



Yeah I don´t disagree with that. I thought I made my point clear. It´s that Aokiji doesn´t seem capable to overpower Ace casually like Akainu could just because his devil fruit has lethality. And why do you assume Ace wouldn´t be concentrating? He seemed fairly concentrated in all his battles we saw. Hence why I think mid-diff is possible he is just not that weak trust me.




> Point is Ace got no Haki feats and if we take the novel into consideration it's only enough to defeat a VA who is leagues below a Admiral. I don't see Ace putting a single scratch on a logia Admiral and Sabo not being able to do anything against a tangible Admiral just further reinforces that point since he ate Ace's DF. Iam also not giving Ace Jozu's and Marco's haki feats since nothing suggest he could do the same. Marco being able to injure Aokiji with his talons is fanfic as it's never been shown and contradicts the showing against Akainu anyway.



As I said even if Ace were too weak to hurt an admiral he could still help massively in a tag team battle like this. All he has to do is intercept or weaken Aokiji´s mid-level attacks like he did in Marineford. That alone could make the difference between stomp and an actual battle which is why I said the admirals win but with difficulty. Sabo not being able to do anything is baseless he barely even tried. 1 kick that is all. No haki no fire fruit nothing and all he aimed for was stalling Fujitora which he successfully did without a single injury himself. So I don´t see how that clash works as feat against him? You make it sound like he was covering in the ground begging Fujitora for mercy but that´s not what happened lol.




> Ace vaporized it by continuously producing fire against said Ice block Aokiji send his way, that's all. There's nothing more to it, every discussion going further is assuming based on nothing. It never been stated Ace's fire was somehow a counter against Aokiji's Ice.
> Sabo basically dodged gravity thrusts by being intangible with a logia, nothing more. He didn't neutralize said gravity, he escaped/dodged it. Also Sabo was nowhere close to Fujitora, he was literally helpless and could't put a single scratch on Issho despite the latter not even taking it seriously as shown later in the arc. Ace fruit is powerful but it does't give him any advantage except against fodders who could't use Haki.



Now that sounds like an actual excuse. Ace produced as much fire as Aokiji produced ice and no matter how you look at it it worked that´s all that matters. Besides the attacks looked perfectly matched in size and power and if that´s all it takes for Ace to stop a named attack of Aokiji then I´m actually quite unimpressed by Ao and my believe for a mid-diff battle is reinforced. Why do you need a statement about that advantage when at the same time you said Akainu´s magma was an advantage for him against Aokiji? It´s the same mechanic of heat beating ice. On top of that we *saw* that the attack melts the ice. fire melts ice why are you pretending you don´t know that and that it shouldn´t apply here when we see that that is exactly what happened?



> You can view Ace how you want. It's just doesn't stack up to the manga showings. Ace lost against Teach who got manhandled by a deathbed WB who was weaker than any Admiral at that point. The moment Ace decided to go against an Admiral he got quickly defeated. It just doesn't portray him as someone who can give Admirals a tough fight and Teach almost breaking his neck in a single chop honestly contradicts anything Oda wanted to build up by hyping his endurance and durability. Teach commented on it that it was a long time ago since Ace been hit the last time meaning his physical prowess heavily declined to before he got the fruit.



Again you are ignoring that Ace was nerfed against Teach. Ace is actually stronger than it looks in that battle just like Blackbeard is stronger than it looks against Magellan. Just think of it this way: we know blackbeard is stronger than Shiryu, we also know that Shiryu and Magellan are equal in strength. So why is it that Magellan manhandled Blackbeard? Because of match-up and because of state of mind. Both are important factors and the comparison between these 3 proves that. Also Deathbed WB is not weaker physically than the admirals only in overall power and unlike the admirals he had the perfect weapon to counter Blackbeard´s fruit effect. It´s all about the context. And teach almost breaking Ace´s neck contradicts his durability hype (which I never said he has) but not his endurance hype.


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## Blacku (May 9, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Yami Blackbeard > Ace. Yami Blackbeard got fodderized by a half dead Whitebeard, who in that condition was weaker than any Admiral. Ergo, Ace gets fodderized by an Admiral.
> Also, blocking one attack doesn't mean much. Case in point:



I find it hilarious he's using the Aokiji vs Ace feat yet ignoring the Mihawk vs Crocodile.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (May 9, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Stop making up excuses. Cocky or not, the fact remains Whitebeard on death's door was still strong enough to cut Blackbeard down, and he felt like he needed to call in his crew to help finish the job. Yami Blackbeard and by extension Ace are fodder to Admirals, end of story.
> 
> Whitebeard on *death's door* is likely physically stronger than Aokiji?



It´s literally stated in the manga and shown on panel that both Blackbeard is too overconfident and that his devil fruit can´t block sharp attacks. So that´s anything but an excuse. Yes death door whitebeard is indeed physically stronger than Aokiji. He does not lose muscle strength just because you injure him. That same death door whitebeard still put down Akainu in 2 hits for a few minutes and split the whole marineford as a side effect and stopped Squard´s ship. I challenge you to show me the admirals doing that.

I also challenge you to show me what makes you think what I said about Fujitora and Sabo is wrong? Do you disagree that Sabo didn´t use named attacks or that he was uninjured or that they were both left standing as equals? I hope not, all of those things are again all on-panel in the manga. I already was fair enough to you and conceded a point because for once you actually brought up a decent argument and yet you are sitting here even denying on-panel evidence. Maybe I should just post emojis when you say "whitebeard manhandled blackbeard" and pretend that didn´t happen as well? That´s basically what you are doing now.


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## Quipchaque (May 9, 2018)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Your arguing with someone who still thinks Enel is anything more than fodder to the likes of Vergo and Law.



And you are the someone who just thinks he is right and pretends the others are dumb now trying to look better with that response and trying to find allies. Man you are so cool and smart.



> I find it hilarious he's using the Aokiji vs Ace feat yet ignoring the Mihawk vs Crocodile.


I find it hilarious that you literally make that up when in reality that argument is just not relevant because I never said Ace is equal or close in strength because of that attack. I merely said that it proves he can at least stop NAMED ATTACKS from Aokiji WITH A DEVIL FRUIT ADVANTAGE which makes the comparison MORE CREDIBLE. Unlike Crocodile who is far further down the food chain and thus less likely to be relevant and merely stopped a skypia Zoro fodder level attack to no effect. Mihawk also wasn´t even trying for real to kill Luffy while Aokiji actually did try to kill L+A.


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## Daisuke Jigen (May 9, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I do not believe for a single second Akainu could 1-shot Ace.





DiscoZoro20 said:


> Also Deathbed WB is not weaker physically than the admirals.





DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yes death door whitebeard is indeed physically stronger than Aokiji.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (May 9, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I don´t see how that is an excuse you know that is true. Akainu himself admitted he has an devil fruit advantage and the 1-shot was Ace trying to shield Luffy. You can´t deny that it is simply true lol. That doesn´t mean Akainu didn´t 1-shot Ace however it means we don´t know if he could do that in an open battle. To me it looked like Akainu is fairly slow, he couldn´t catch a base luffy and Ace that were running away and Ace actually caught up to Akainu before he could reach Luffy. Also Buggy could dodge his attacks so no I do not believe for a single second Akainu could 1-shot Ace. That´s a bit too optimistic.



Iam not denying anything here you deny that Ace can be one shotted while i just brought up a manga feat where it happens. In an open battle Ace was down on the ground after 1 clash screaming in agony. And the next time we saw him was when he got fisted by Akainu. You can believe what you want but Jinbei disagrees with you on Akainu being slow despite having WB commanders on him. Akainu been shown to put down Ace with 1 attack in the manga, DiscoZoro >>> no Akainu 1 shotting Ace is a bit too optimistic.





DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yeah I don´t disagree with that. I thought I made my point clear. It´s that Aokiji doesn´t seem capable to overpower Ace casually like Akainu could just because his devil fruit has lethality. And why do you assume Ace wouldn´t be concentrating? He seemed fairly concentrated in all his battles we saw. Hence why I think mid-diff is possible he is just not that weak trust me.



Ace got nothing that comes even close to oppose an Admiral. The best he got is melting an ice block by continously producing fire. He got nothing else. He is not pushing an Admiral to mid diff. Why should i trust you on this if the manga shows the opposite? Ace was good in the first part of OP when noone was able to touch him he had godlike portrayal and once someone touched him we saw what he really was.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> As I said even if Ace were too weak to hurt an admiral he could still help massively in a tag team battle like this. All he has to do is intercept or weaken Aokiji´s mid-level attacks like he did in Marineford. That alone could make the difference between stomp and an actual battle which is why I said the admirals win but with difficulty. Sabo not being able to do anything is baseless he barely even tried. 1 kick that is all. No haki no fire fruit nothing and all he aimed for was stalling Fujitora which he successfully did without a single injury himself. So I don´t see how that clash works as feat against him? You make it sound like he was covering in the ground begging Fujitora for mercy but that´s not what happened lol.



Ace goes down to fast to Admiral calibers to be of much use in a prolonged fight, this is undeniable.
Sabo set the whole town ablaze and Fujitora still didn't got a single scratch or dirt mark, despite the Admiral not even being serious. How am i making it sound like he was covering the ground when he's shown completely roughed up sitting on the ground after Fujitora left already? He should be happy Issho didn't end him there.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Now that sounds like an actual excuse. Ace produced as much fire as Aokiji produced ice and no matter how you look at it it worked that´s all that matters. Besides the attacks looked perfectly matched in size and power and if that´s all it takes for Ace to stop a named attack of Aokiji then I´m actually quite unimpressed by Ao and my believe for a mid-diff battle is reinforced. Why do you need a statement about that advantage when at the same time you said Akainu´s magma was an advantage for him against Aokiji? It´s the same mechanic of heat beating ice. On top of that we *saw* that the attack melts the ice. fire melts ice why are you pretending you don´t know that and that it shouldn´t apply here when we see that that is exactly what happened?



Aokiji sent a small ice block compared to his other attacks like ice age it was nothing. There was no continuous ice produced unlike in Ace's case who had to constantly use his fire powers creating a wall of fire producing his element for so long till the ice block completely melted. 
Iam not impressed of Ace either that he had to produce so much fire to melt such a small ice block thrown at him. That just further reinforces that Ace got no chance of doing anything to attacks like ice age. This works both ways and is no argument at all, your belief is not having any ground. I don't need a statement for that since it's a favour for Ace to have a small advantage in the element field but it was nowhere stated, so the argument that fire is superior to ice falls apart.
As i said it was a simple ice block not a continuous creation of ice while Ace had to keep producing fire to melt it in the shape of a wall, it doesn't melt instantly if it meets the fire genius. And i never said that Akainu got an advantage against Aokiji lol, don't put words in my mouth, if you got no arguments just concede.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Again you are ignoring that Ace was nerfed against Teach. Ace is actually stronger than it looks in that battle just like Blackbeard is stronger than it looks against Magellan. Just think of it this way: we know blackbeard is stronger than Shiryu, we also know that Shiryu and Magellan are equal in strength. So why is it that Magellan manhandled Blackbeard? Because of match-up and because of state of mind. Both are important factors and the comparison between these 3 proves that. Also Deathbed WB is not weaker physically than the admirals only in overall power and unlike the admirals he had the perfect weapon to counter Blackbeard´s fruit effect. It´s all about the context. And teach almost breaking Ace´s neck contradicts his durability hype (which I never said he has) but not his endurance hype.



How was Ace nerfed against BB? You talk about match-ups and SoM but are excusing it in Ace's case because BB could hit him thanks to the Yami? That's pretty biased. Ace was not nerfed he simply lost because he was physically too weak. Deathbed WB could barely stand how is he stronger than Admirals? Well if Ace's endurance was that good why did he lost to someone who was manhandled by deathbed WB?


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## Gohara (May 12, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> It was enough to scar Akainu



Which doesn't necessarily mean that it's enough of a technique to one shot Ace.



TheWiggian said:


> and defeat Jozu



While distracted which doesn't apply to that match up that we're discussing.



TheWiggian said:


> We already saw what happens when a Admiral is distracted or gets a cheapshot. Bloody cheek and bloody lip.



We've seen what happens when Jozu uses Brilliant Punk to the face of an Admiral.  That doesn't translate to Jozu being unable to break an Admiral's neck in a distraction, Vista slicing off the head of an Admiral in a distraction, Lord Katakuri bludgeoning through a character's body in a distraction, Sabo burning through a character in a distraction, etc..



TheWiggian said:


> When Admirals get in an attack on someone who is distracted or can't defend, the fight ends in their favour.



We've seen many characters withstand those types of techniques from Kizaru.  Which is consistent with my point that not all Admirals have the same degree of firepower.  They might all be around the same tier ranking when you tally up all their skills.  However Akainu's techniques have more firepower than other Admirals' techniques so far and because of that we can't rightfully use Akainu's firepower as an example for the other Admirals' firepower.



TheWiggian said:


> Commander's ain't outlasting Admirals and don't have enouh firrpower to put them down.



How do you figure that?  We have yet to see a full fledged match up between those characters and excluding distractions the Admirals have almost never gotten the upper hand in their many confrontations.  Plus is that even the point?  We're discussing whether or not Ace's character is nothing compared to the Admirals I have no disagreements that the Admirals are a league superior however there isn't really any evidence for Ace's character being nothing compared to the Admirals.


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## TheWiggian (May 12, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Which doesn't necessarily mean that it's enough of a technique to one shot Ace.



Boy Aokiji's fruit was effective against a guy whose fruit drastically outclassed Ace's to the point of creating permanent scars on his real body. You seriously believe it won't do anything close to someone who couldn't take a single magma fist?

Aokiji's and Sakazuki's fruits where portrayed equal and Punk Hazard is the fossil and proof for that. Be it Aoe, Destruction or lethality. Both defeated a Commander with a single shot in a split second.

Not much room for a debate. PH disagrees with your opinion.




Gohara said:


> While distracted which doesn't apply to that match up that we're discussing.



Doesn't matter distraction or not, Jozu is not in this match-up. And you seem to focussed on the distraction part for someone who believes Aokiji cannot 1 shot Ace, unless you're lying to yourself about the 1 shot part.




Gohara said:


> We've seen what happens when Jozu uses Brilliant Punk to the face of an Admiral. That doesn't translate to Jozu being unable to break an Admiral's neck in a distraction, Vista slicing off the head of an Admiral in a distraction, Lord Katakuri bludgeoning through a character's body in a distraction, Sabo burning through a character in a distraction, etc..



It means just that 
If Jozu was capable of more than creating a bloody lip then we would've seen this, yet we didn't, it never happened. So it translates that he can't break an Admiral's neck same as Vista together with Marco can't chop off Akainu's head while the Admiral is distracted and Sabo couldn't even burn through Burgess. This was all on panel in the manga, the Commander's couldn't do more than being an annoyance and making an Admiral's lip bleed. Manga speaks against you, come up with something more solid the ice melted long since MF.





Gohara said:


> We've seen many characters withstand those types of techniques from Kizaru. Which is consistent with my point that not all Admirals have the same degree of firepower. They might all be around the same tier ranking when you tally up all their skills. However Akainu's techniques have more firepower than other Admirals' techniques so far and because of that we can't rightfully use Akainu's firepower as an example for the other Admirals' firepower.



Well don't know about you but i saw all Admiral's, Fujitora included having island devastating attacks, the only one who withstood Kizaru's YnM was Marco and that thanks to the regeneration. And you can even count in that they had to hold back their destruction powers as it was a home game and they already had an enemy that could wreck whole MF. When going all out look what happens to an island > Punk Hazard.



Gohara said:


> How do you figure that?  We have yet to see a full fledged match up between those characters and excluding distractions the Admirals have almost never gotten the upper hand in their many confrontations.  Plus is that even the point?  We're discussing whether or not Ace's character is nothing compared to the Admirals I have no disagreements that the Admirals are a league superior however there isn't really any evidence for Ace's character being nothing compared to the Admirals.



We saw full fledged confrontations at MF and guess what all Commanders were at a disadvantage when they were able to prove what they are capable off.
The Marines had to hold back their devastating attacks and you argue that they couldn't get an advantage without distractions? Commander's couldn't even get a single hit on the Admirals without distractions, WB included couldn't even touch a single one of them without the Marines being busy with someone else.


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## xmysticgohanx (May 12, 2018)

landondonnovan said:


> No fruit Black Beard hurt Shanks, he ain't weak, Ace getting alot of disrespect here.
> However Admirals extreme diff.


 BB hurting Shanks must have been some sort of sneak attack where Shanks used haki a little too late

That's the best to reconcile everything


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## TheOmega (May 13, 2018)

2 Mera Mera Users will literally Low Diff Aokiji

One Neutralizes his Ice and one Melts him

I personally believe that the fight depends on how long it takes A&S to kill Aokiji

If they can do it before Kizaru starts nuking and possibly sniping Luffy then ASL will proceed to gang bang stomp Kizaru.

Aokiji is not getting out of this fight alive.

Fire is not Magma, Fire is actually intangible as opposed to Magma being liquid. You can't cool fire like you can cool Magma. Aokiji will be fully outclassed against 2 Mera Mera no Mis.


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## TheWiggian (May 13, 2018)

Sabo and Ace can't even hurt Aokiji with their fire as he is a logia and now they're supposed to kill him in such a short time even thought he battled someone superior to them for 10 days?

Damn these logic and science freaks of the new generation


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## DoctorLaw (May 13, 2018)

Ace underestimation is depressing, but there’s no way he can beat Aokiji, even with Sabo’s help. However, Aokiji isn’t going to roflstomp the two, again, Ace stopped Aokiji’s ice. That’s extremely impressive, and shows how dangerous his fire is. Aokiji will actually have to fight the pair very seriously. I still say Aokiji wins because he fought the mad dog himself for 10 days


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## TheOmega (May 14, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Sabo and Ace can't even hurt Aokiji with their fire as he is a logia and now they're supposed to kill him in such a short time even thought he battled someone superior to them for 10 days?
> 
> Damn these logic and science freaks of the new generation





DoctorLaw said:


> Ace underestimation is depressing, but there’s no way he can beat Aokiji, even with Sabo’s help. However, Aokiji isn’t going to roflstomp the two, again, Ace stopped Aokiji’s ice. That’s extremely impressive, and shows how dangerous his fire is. Aokiji will actually have to fight the pair very seriously. I still say Aokiji wins because he fought the mad dog himself for 10 days



What part of Magma and Fire are different because Magma can be Cooled and Fire Cannot did ya'll not understand?

Aokiji is at an actual disadvantage against Fire. He's not as disadvantaged against Magma as you people think.

2 Mera Meras are gonna melt Aokiji whether he's "tangible" or not because he turns to solid Ice and Fire melts Ice.


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## TheWiggian (May 14, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> What part of Magma and Fire are different because Magma can be Cooled and Fire Cannot did ya'll not understand?
> 
> Aokiji is at an actual disadvantage against Fire. He's not as disadvantaged against Magma as you people think.
> 
> 2 Mera Meras are gonna melt Aokiji whether he's "tangible" or not because he turns to solid Ice and Fire melts Ice.



Go ahead and prove that he is at a disadvantage. As far as iam concerned Aokiji had no problems dealing with fire.

I don't need to prove shit as it never happened in the manga, if you think Mera got any kind of advantage against Hie then so be it, show us something related to it. A panel or a statement from someone.


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## TheOmega (May 14, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Go ahead and prove that he is at a disadvantage. As far as iam concerned Aokiji had no problems dealing with fire.
> 
> I don't need to prove shit as it never happened in the manga, if you think Mera got any kind of advantage against Hie then so be it, show us something related to it. A panel or a statement from someone.



Uhh.. the fact that Ace straight up no sold Aokiji's attack with no diff?

If you think Ice has no disadvantages against Fire then you really are lost lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Quipchaque (May 14, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Go ahead and prove that he is at a disadvantage. As far as iam concerned Aokiji had no problems dealing with fire.
> 
> I don't need to prove shit as it never happened in the manga, if you think Mera got any kind of advantage against Hie then so be it, show us something related to it. A panel or a statement from someone.



You know the panel...
You are living in denial or it´s a silly trolling attempt if you can´t concede that fire is superior to ice. Like do you even realize what ice is...? And have you ever heard of frozen fire? I bet next we have to prove that magma can burn wood because it isn´t shown in the manga or that Luffy can´t breathe underwater or whatever sillyness we can come up with next.


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## DoctorLaw (May 14, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> What part of Magma and Fire are different because Magma can be Cooled and Fire Cannot did ya'll not understand?
> 
> Aokiji is at an actual disadvantage against Fire. He's not as disadvantaged against Magma as you people think.
> 
> 2 Mera Meras are gonna melt Aokiji whether he's "tangible" or not because he turns to solid Ice and Fire melts Ice.



Where in my post did I mention Aokiji being at a disadvantage? I think I even pointed out Ace can melt Aokiji’s ice. That still doesn’t change the fact that Aokiji has superior haki and fighting ability to both of them. I don’t shit on Ace like a lot of people here, but he’s not ready to tango with a guy that fought Akainu for 10 days. Mad dog stopped a WB QUAKE at point blank range, and Aokiji fought that guy.


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## TheWiggian (May 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You know the panel...
> You are living in denial or it´s a silly trolling attempt if you can´t concede that fire is superior to ice. Like do you even realize what ice is...? And have you ever heard of frozen fire? I bet next we have to prove that magma can burn wood because it isn´t shown in the manga or that Luffy can´t breathe underwater or whatever sillyness we can come up with next.



So you have nothing? You suggest to apply real life logic to One Piece? Go ahead i will wait here and accept concessions if you break during the time explaining everything.

How about Ice melting from heat? Why didn't Aokiji's Ice melt while dividing PH with Magma, how can it survive heat melting it that goes up to 1200 degree celsius?

How is Ace's fruit inferior to Magma if fire can go up to a much higher temperature?


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## TheWiggian (May 14, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> Uhh.. the fact that Ace straight up no sold Aokiji's attack with no diff?
> 
> If you think Ice has no disadvantages against Fire then you really are lost lol



So you got nothing and just spam your headcanon? I suggest you to help DiscoZoro answer some questions ina fantasy word where you want to apply real life physics:



> How about Ice melting from heat? Why didn't Aokiji's Ice melt while dividing PH with Magma, how can it survive heat melting it that goes up to 1200 degree celsius?
> 
> How is Ace's fruit inferior to Magma if fire can go up to a much higher temperature?



Have fun with the mental gymnastics to help your Ace-kun here.


----------



## Quipchaque (May 14, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> So you have nothing? You suggest to apply real life logic to One Piece? Go ahead i will wait here and accept concessions if you break during the time explaining everything.
> 
> How about Ice melting from heat? Why didn't Aokiji's Ice melt while dividing PH with Magma, how can it survive heat melting it that goes up to 1200 degree celsius?
> 
> How is Ace's fruit inferior to Magma if fire can go up to a much higher temperature?



How should I know what happened in the Akainu battle? I could clutch for straws now like you did and say "aokiji Continously created icewalls while akainu only used one small attack." anyway we can hardly analyze a battle that happened off-panel. I also can't read Oda's mind about fire and magma you can go ask him if that bothers you that much. What matters is that Aokiji has a natural weakness against fire just like Crocodile has a weakness against liquids or Enel against rubber. Those are all things based on real life logic, deal with it.


----------



## TheWiggian (May 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> How should I know what happened in the Akainu battle? I could clutch for straws now like you did and say "aokiji Continously created icewalls while akainu only used one small attack." anyway we can hardly analyze a battle that happened off-panel. I also can't read Oda's mind about fire and magma you can go ask him if that bothers you that much. What matters is that Aokiji has a natural weakness against fire just like Crocodile has a weakness against liquids or Enel against rubber. Those are all things based on real life logic, deal with it.



So you got nothing? So should i take it as a concession?


----------



## Quipchaque (May 14, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> So you got nothing? So should i take it as a concession?



Nah as I already said Aokiji continously created ice walls to cool down akainu mini ice attacks. Also Show me the statements and panels in the Manga that say Akainu can't melt Aokijis ice.


----------



## TheWiggian (May 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nah as I already said Aokiji continously created ice walls to cool down akainu mini ice attacks. Also Show me the statements and panels in the Manga that say Akainu can't melt Aokijis ice.



He could but he needed 10 days for it but you think that a far weaker character can do it in much less time?




Still nothing but headcanon?
I accept your concession.


----------



## Gohara (May 14, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Boy Aokiji's fruit was effective against a guy whose fruit drastically outclassed Ace's to the point of creating permanent scars on his real body.



Akainu's Fruit is superior however what evidence is there that it significantly outclasses it?  Also we have no idea what circumstances and what techniques Aokiji uses to create those scars.



TheWiggian said:


> You seriously believe it won't do anything close to someone who couldn't take a single magma fist?



Ace intentionally took that technique.  In a fair one on one match up perhaps Ace dodges it somewhat and it doesn't touch any significant organs?  In a fair one on one match up perhaps Ace is fully healed rather than being significantly battle worn?



TheWiggian said:


> Aokiji's and Sakazuki's fruits where portrayed equal



Those fruits don't have to be equal in order for each one to effect different sides of an island.



TheWiggian said:


> And you seem to focussed on the distraction part for someone who believes Aokiji cannot 1 shot Ace, unless you're lying to yourself about the 1 shot part.



I'm focusing on that distraction point because I know that's what you're basing the idea that they can one shot Ace on.  However your argument isn't acting like they were distractions and are applying them to normal match up examples.  We have no idea if they can one shot that caliber of characters without distractions.



TheWiggian said:


> If Jozu was capable of more than creating a bloody lip then we would've seen this, yet we didn't, it never happened.



If Kizaru were capable of one shotting a Pre Time Skip Supernova we would have seen that so therefore Kizaru can't one shot Pre Time Skip Supernova tier characters.  Obviously you don't agree with that argument and yet that argument is using that same reasoning.  Jozu using that technique doesn't necessarily suggest that he doesn't know how to break necks.



TheWiggian said:


> Well don't know about you but i saw all Admiral's



Aokiji's firepower is not yet as impressive as Fujitora's and Akainu's.  Kizaru's is even less impressive so far.  They're all amazing Devil Fruits however some excel in some aspects more than others.



TheWiggian said:


> We saw full fledged confrontations at MF and guess what all Commanders were at a disadvantage



None of them were at disadvantages outside of Curiel excluding distractions.



TheWiggian said:


> Commander's couldn't even get a single hit on the Admirals without distractions



Outside of Marco sending Kizaru flying none of those characters got the upper hand against each other excluding distractions.


----------



## TheWiggian (May 14, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Akainu's Fruit is superior however what evidence is there that it significantly outclasses it?  Also we have no idea what circumstances and what techniques Aokiji uses to create those scars.



Evidence points that Akainu's fruit was easily stronger than Ace's as in a clash he was down on his ass screaming in agony and the second time they met in the war it was Ace's end. Doesn't matter which techniques Aokiji used to create those scars, he fucking did it.



Gohara said:


> Ace intentionally took that technique.  In a fair one on one match up perhaps Ace dodges it somewhat and it doesn't touch any significant organs?  In a fair one on one match up perhaps Ace is fully healed rather than being significantly battle worn?



Ace could've tried to kick Akainu away like Marco or clash with him again like the first time but he knew he had no chance so he used his body as a meatshield. What fair one on one match? Akainu literally went for someone else but Ace died like in a crossfire.



Gohara said:


> Those fruits don't have to be equal in order for each one to effect different sides of an island.



Lol? Even if they wouldn't need to be equal which you can't prove they've been portrayed equal by PH, by the scars on the bodies of the fighters and by how long the battle took with a miniscule edge for Akainu winning it.



Gohara said:


> I'm focusing on that distraction point because I know that's what you're basing the idea that they can one shot Ace on.  However your argument isn't acting like they were distractions and are applying them to normal match up examples.  We have no idea if they can one shot that caliber of characters without distractions.



Your focusing on the distraction because it's the only thing that holds the Yonkou commanders head above the water surface in the debate against Admiral's. While it might be not the best argument but the one been shown in the manga on numerous occasions i see that Admiral's are lethal enough to one shot characters of that caliber and don't assume something based on nothing.



Gohara said:


> If Kizaru were capable of one shotting a Pre Time Skip Supernova we would have seen that so therefore Kizaru can't one shot Pre Time Skip Supernova tier characters. Obviously you don't agree with that argument and yet that argument is using that same reasoning.  Jozu using that technique doesn't necessarily suggest that he doesn't know how to break necks.



Jozu haven't been shown to do something like that against such powerful characters even with distractions the best he managed is creating a bloody lip. While Aokiji could one shot him in the same situation. You don't see me claiming that Aokiji could one shot Shanks because that would be the same reasoning and not Kizaru defeating fodders with 1 click.



Gohara said:


> Aokiji's firepower is not yet as impressive as Fujitora's and Akainu's.  Kizaru's is even less impressive so far.  They're all amazing Devil Fruits however some excel in some aspects more than others.



They all have shown island devastating feats, yet again how comes he is less impressive with it? PH man PH remember?



Gohara said:


> None of them were at disadvantages outside of Curiel excluding distractions.



Curiel been literally shown one shotted, Jozu been shown one shotted, Ace been shown 1 shotted, Aokiji's lip was bleeding, Marco and Vista didn't even damage Akainu = Not at a disadvantage






Gohara said:


> Outside of Marco sending Kizaru flying none of those characters got the upper hand against each other excluding distractions.



Yea and sending Kizaru flying damaged him that much that he literally came out unscathed at the end of the war.


----------



## Quipchaque (May 15, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Evidence points that Akainu's fruit was easily stronger than Ace's as in a clash he was down on his ass screaming in agony and the second time they met in the war it was Ace's end. *Doesn't matter which techniques Aokiji used to create those scars, he fucking did it.*



It matters because you are saying Ace is practically fodder in this whole match-up which is not true if Aokiji would have to resort to high-end attacks or his strongest non-awakening attacks etc. and as I´ve pointed out a few posts ago chances are Aokiji did hold his own with very strong attacks since Akainu is unlikely to go easy in such a battle. So to use this as evidence to suggest that Aokiji can swat away a fire fruit user basically casually just because Akainu could do so with 2 advantages is outright dishonest and selective reading.




> Ace could've tried to kick Akainu away like Marco or clash with him again like the first time but he knew he had no chance so he used his body as a meatshield. What fair one on one match? Akainu literally went for someone else but Ace died like in a crossfire.



Man come on bringing up this point. You act like Ace would just be standing there letting Akainu push a hole in his stomach if they actually fought for real let alone if his only purpose would be try and minimize damage against others in a tag team battle. You also ignore that Akainu and Aokiji are not the same people. Akainu and Ace clash... Ace gets overpowered. Aokiji and Ace clash... stalemate. That´s why Ace matters in a battle against Ao but not so much against Akainu.




> Lol? Even if they wouldn't need to be equal which you can't prove they've been portrayed equal by PH, by the scars on the bodies of the fighters and by how long the battle took with a miniscule edge for Akainu winning it.



Ace´s and Aokiji´s fruits also have been portrayed as equal. Again portrayal of punk hazard is flawed because for all we know Aokiji´s fruit was only equal in that battle because he used stronger armament haki or things like that. We gotta see a few panels from that battle to properly gauge their devil fruit strength. You can´t be nitpicky for Ace vs Aokiji saying "more fire thus dfs not equal" but at the same time say "lol island split- thus dfs equal". Gotta be consistent with your argument.



> Your focusing on the distraction because it's the only thing that holds the Yonkou commanders head above the water surface in the debate against Admiral's. While it might be not the best argument but the one been shown in the manga on numerous occasions i see that Admiral's are lethal enough to one shot characters of that caliber and don't assume something based on nothing.



It´s not the only thing. You are also arguing under the assumption that Yonko commanders can´t do significantly more than what they´ve shown in Marineford which is more likely to be wrong than not as evident by Katakuri´s vast amount of skills that would work perfectly fine against distracted admirals.




> Jozu haven't been shown to do something like that against such powerful characters even with distractions the best he managed is creating a bloody lip. While Aokiji could one shot him in the same situation. You don't see me claiming that Aokiji could one shot Shanks because that would be the same reasoning and not Kizaru defeating fodders with 1 click.



Same as Luffy against Arlong when he attacked him with headbutts and kicks in his entrance.. yet look what Arlong looked like at the end of the battle. Crocodile also only had a bloody lip from that same attack.. do you think Jozu won´t be able to beat Crocodile because of that?



> Yea and sending Kizaru flying damaged him that much that he literally came out unscathed at the end of the war.



That´s to be expected given that Marco attacked him from the front without transforming fully and since Kizaru used his arm to block and transformed into light before the impact. What did you expect would happen?


----------



## TheWiggian (May 15, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> It matters because you are saying Ace is practically fodder in this whole match-up which is not true if Aokiji would have to resort to high-end attacks or his strongest non-awakening attacks etc. and as I´ve pointed out a few posts ago chances are Aokiji did hold his own with very strong attacks since Akainu is unlikely to go easy in such a battle. So to use this as evidence to suggest that Aokiji can swat away a fire fruit user basically casually just because Akainu could do so with 2 advantages is outright dishonest and selective reading.





Aokiji sent 1 attack, 1 and Ace melted it. It doesn't result in a all out battle where both were serious as fuck compared to Akainu vs Aokiji.
Weren't you the one liking logic to the point of saying Ace got the advantage on Aokiji? Now you just deny that someone even stronger than Ace, who in fact burned Ace in their encounter barely defeated the ice man after 10 days. Why so much hypocrisy and iam biased, dishonest with selective reading?







DiscoZoro20 said:


> Man come on bringing up this point. You act like Ace would just be standing there letting Akainu push a hole in his stomach if they actually fought for real let alone if his only purpose would be try and minimize damage against others in a tag team battle. You also ignore that Akainu and Aokiji are not the same people. Akainu and Ace clash... Ace gets overpowered. Aokiji and Ace clash... stalemate. That´s why Ace matters in a battle against Ao but not so much against Akainu.



Minimize damage against other team players = sacrificing himself so said team player still about to die after.

Superior Ace >>> Ace
Ace > Ice
Superior Ace >= Ice

Splendid logic.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Ace´s and Aokiji´s fruits also have been portrayed as equal. Again portrayal of punk hazard is flawed because for all we know Aokiji´s fruit was only equal in that battle because he used stronger armament haki or things like that. We gotta see a few panels from that battle to properly gauge their devil fruit strength. You can´t be nitpicky for Ace vs Aokiji saying "more fire thus dfs not equal" but at the same time say "lol island split- thus dfs equal". Gotta be consistent with your argument.



Yea Ace's and Aokiji's single clash they had was portrayed equal despite Aokiji sending a single block of ice towards Ace who melted it by continously creating a fire wall, which is literally called so by his attack name.

PH is only flawed for you because you have no arguments against the war between 2 Admiral's that turned an island to a uninhabitable zone.
They were portrayed deadly equal by the whole event that happened there and Jinbei also commented on it. No amount of denying and headcanon will change that.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> It´s not the only thing. You are also arguing under the assumption that Yonko commanders can´t do significantly more than what they´ve shown in Marineford which is more likely to be wrong than not as evident by Katakuri´s vast amount of skills that would work perfectly fine against distracted admirals.



They haven't shown to be capable of more so iam not assuming they can. Katakuris display of skill was awesome but against a Luffy that was growing throught their fight. Luffy also is no logia so it's really questionable how great he would fare against an Admiral, Fujitora excluded. Iam not gonna give them feats that they don't deserve, haven't been hinted to have and haven't shown up to date.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Same as Luffy against Arlong when he attacked him with headbutts and kicks in his entrance.. yet look what Arlong looked like at the end of the battle. Crocodile also only had a bloody lip from that same attack.. do you think Jozu won´t be able to beat Crocodile because of that?



Hey it's not my problem that it works against Jozu. If you don't believe in it disprove that, for all i know, i don't care about Jozu's and Crocodiles meeting in the war.


----------



## TheOmega (May 15, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> So you got nothing and just spam your headcanon? I suggest you to help DiscoZoro answer some questions ina fantasy word where you want to apply real life physics:
> 
> 
> 
> Have fun with the mental gymnastics to help your Ace-kun here.




You people need to understand that Fire and Magma are NOT the same thing.

The same qualities that make Magma overpower Fire are the same qualities that allow it to be affected by Ice.

Magma and Fire interact differently with Ice.

Magma is goopy and is palpable, fire is not.

Magma on top of Fire smothers it and causes it to die from lack of oxygen.

Magma cools naturally over time, Ice cools it even faster.

Fire doesn't cool and has no form to even freeze, in fact it's combustion itself. Fire melts Ice.

Just cuz Akainu has an Advantage against Ace and Aokiji can fight him doesn't mean he can fight Ace, Ace has the Elemental Advantage against Aokiji


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## TheWiggian (May 15, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> You people need to understand that Fire and Magma are NOT the same thing.
> 
> The same qualities that make Magma overpower Fire are the same qualities that allow it to be affected by Ice.
> 
> ...



Yea magma cools just like on Punk Hazard after the battle ended for weeks and probably permanently gonna burn for now same with how Ice melted close to the magma heat on Punk Hazard after the battle ended for weeks and probably permanently gonna be frozen for now.

Great logic and physical laws you guys apply in the One Piece world.

Try again.


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## TheOmega (May 15, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Yea magma cools just like on Punk Hazard after the battle ended for weeks and probably permanently gonna burn for now same with how Ice melted close to the magma heat on Punk Hazard after the battle ended for weeks and probably permanently gonna be frozen for now.
> 
> Great logic and physical laws you guys apply in the One Piece world.
> 
> Try again.



I'm saying when cooling is directly applied to it. You can tell that that magma wasn't directly hit with cooling powers of the Hie Hie fruit -_-


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## TheWiggian (May 15, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> I'm saying when cooling is directly applied to it. You can tell that that magma wasn't directly hit with cooling powers of the Hie Hie fruit -_-



Dude wanna still apply real life physics?

1 half of the island is not melting and the other half is not cooling?

It's not my manga wether i believe in it or not. We can also apply Kizaru being so fast that he blitzes Roger, WB and Garp in their prime versions without them realizing what happened and defeats them all at the same second even if they're spread on the whole planet all at different locations.


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## TheOmega (May 15, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Dude wanna still apply real life physics?
> 
> 1 half of the island is not melting and the other half is not cooling?
> 
> It's not my manga wether i believe in it or not. We can also apply Kizaru being so fast that he blitzes Roger, WB and Garp in their prime versions without them realizing what happened and defeats them all at the same second even if they're spread on the whole planet all at different locations.



Yea cuz 1 half turned to ice and the other half turned to magma, duh.

Kizaru might be able to blitz anyone if he catches them off guard. In my opinion he had the best showing against Whitebeard during Marineford


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## TheWiggian (May 15, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> Yea cuz 1 half turned to ice and the other half turned to magma, duh.
> 
> Kizaru might be able to blitz anyone if he catches them off guard. In my opinion he had the best showing against Whitebeard during Marineford



So why does 1 half doesn't congeal being right next to freezing temperatures? And why does the Ice not melt being that close to the heat of fire/magma?

Why doesn't Kizaru move at the speed of light in combat?


----------



## Gohara (May 15, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Evidence points that Akainu's fruit was easily stronger than Ace's



Besting a character =/= easily more skilled.  Yeah more skilled however what part of that clash implies easily?  Characters burned do react that way even when they're not bested such as Blackbeard.  Especially since Ace's character is significantly battle worn in that Arc



TheWiggian said:


> Doesn't matter which techniques Aokiji used to create those scars, he fucking did it.



You're suggesting that Aokiji creates those scars specifically using ice and I'm suggesting that we have no idea what circumstances and techniques Aokiji uses to create those scars.



TheWiggian said:


> Ace could've tried to kick Akainu away like Marco or clash with him again like the first time but he knew he had no chance so he used his body as a meatshield.



That lava is travelling at Luffy.  Even if techniques in Ace's arsenal rank highly enough to counter Akainu's magma how would Ace's character create such high ranking techniques at that degree of speed?  Also what if those techniques negate a lot of the lava yet some of that lava lands on Luffy?  Also again that point isn't factoring in that Ace's character is significantly battle worn in that Arc.



TheWiggian said:


> Your focusing on the distraction because it's the only thing that holds the Yonkou commanders head above the water surface in the debate against Admiral's.



It's the opposite.  Top Yonkou commander tier characters have consistently evenly confronted against Admiral tier characters with the only detriments that Admiral => Yonkou fans attempt to argue being that the Admirals have more feats of besting Yonkou Commanders.  However those examples are from distractions.  Which makes it an invalid point.  As does superior one shot techniques =/= being superior in combined skills like how Aokiji having superior one shot techniques compared to Kizaru and yet Aokiji isn't > Kizaru.  Outside of that I would argue that basically all evidence that we have so far suggests that top Yonkou Commander tier characters are comparable to Admiral tier characters.  The water isn't even above the bathing suits of those arguments much less that head.  One shot techniques are great for characters however even Sugar's character has some of the most impressive one shot techniques in the series.

While it might be not the best argument but the one been shown in the manga on numerous occasions i see that Admiral's are lethal enough to one shot characters of that caliber and don't assume something based on nothing.



TheWiggian said:


> Jozu haven't been shown to do something like that against such powerful characters even with distractions the best he managed is creating a bloody lip.



Jozu breaking a neck is obviously something that his character knows how to do so unless you're arguing that Jozu doesn't know how to break necks the fact that he creates bloody lips in that one example doesn't imply that it's as good as his one shot techniques are.  Also and again Aokiji isn't > Kizaru even though Aokiji has more impressive one shot techniques.  Crocodile isn't > Ivankov even though he has more impressive one shot techniques.  Sugar's character isn't > Diamante even though her character has more impressive one shot techniques.



TheWiggian said:


> They all have shown island devastating feats, yet again how comes he is less impressive with it?



Aokiji's feat is from using ice for a long time straight.  Whether that makes his firepower on par with Fujitora's and Akainu's is a different discussion and so far seeing those Devil Fruits in action magma and gravity have superior firepower.



TheWiggian said:


> Curiel been literally shown one shotted



True however Bartolomeo easily besting Mayanard doesn't suggest that he's around Admiral tier like how easily besting Curiel doesn't suggest that a character is decisively superior to Yonkou First Mates.



TheWiggian said:


> Jozu been shown one shotted



Distraction.



TheWiggian said:


> Ace been shown 1 shotted



Multiple disadvantages.



TheWiggian said:


> Marco and Vista didn't even damage Akainu = Not at a disadvantage



True however isn't enough to really qualify as a disadvantage.  We know that characters of that caliber can land techniques on Admirals and have done so on many occasions.  Plus some would argue that those slashes land.  The standard of being around Admiral tier isn't slashing Akainu's head off in one slash.



TheWiggian said:


> Yea and sending Kizaru



We have no idea if Marco's technique harms Kizaru at all because any harm would be bruises and Kizaru is wearing clothes.  Plus the point is that Marco has an advantage against Kizaru in that clash which is contrary to your point that Admirals always have advantages against top Yonkou Commander tier characters.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Fel1x (May 15, 2018)

Luffy and co wins because of a teamplay


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## TheWiggian (May 15, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Besting a character =/= easily more skilled.  Yeah more skilled however what part of that clash implies easily?  Characters burned do react that way even when they're not bested such as Blackbeard.  Especially since Ace's character is significantly battle worn in that Arc.



Magma is superior to fire ---> Akainu's words. 1 clash = Ace down, 2nd encounter = Ace dead. Say what you want, i didn't expected something reasonable anyway. Lord Ace dies.



Gohara said:


> You're suggesting that Aokiji creates those scars specifically using ice and I'm suggesting that we have no idea what circumstances and techniques Aokiji uses to create those scars.



I expect a logia Admiral that creates frozen oceans and uses freezing abilities to do that with his Hie Hie no Mi just as i expect the other logia Admiral that creates Volcanoes to use his Magu Magu no Mi for that. But that just me, ofc the Admirals got other fighting styles than using their logia elements. Akainu probably kicked off Aokiji's leg while Aokiji shredded his right side of the face and neck with a powerful Haki spit.



Gohara said:


> That lava is travelling at Luffy.  Even if techniques in Ace's arsenal rank highly enough to counter Akainu's magma how would Ace's character create such high ranking techniques at that degree of speed?  Also what if those techniques negate a lot of the lava yet some of that lava lands on Luffy?  Also again that point isn't factoring in that Ace's character is significantly battle worn in that Arc.



In other words, Ace couldn't do anything except using his body as a meatshield. Thanks for admitting it.



Gohara said:


> It's the opposite. Top Yonkou commander tier characters have consistently evenly confronted against Admiral tier characters with the only detriments that Admiral => Yonkou fans attempt to argue being that the Admirals have more feats of besting Yonkou Commanders.  However those examples are from distractions. Which makes it an invalid point. As does superior one shot techniques =/= being superior in combined skills like how Aokiji having superior one shot techniques compared to Kizaru and yet Aokiji isn't > Kizaru.  Outside of that I would argue that basically all evidence that we have so far suggests that top Yonkou Commander tier characters are comparable to Admiral tier characters. The water isn't even above the bathing suits of those arguments much less that head.  One shot techniques are great for characters however even Sugar's character has some of the most impressive one shot techniques in the series.



They all confronted Admiral's and not a single one came out victorious. The stronger ones are even able to tango with Admirals for a while before going down. But they never showcased superiority against the marines.



Gohara said:


> Jozu breaking a neck is obviously something that his character knows how to do so unless you're arguing that Jozu doesn't know how to break necks the fact that he creates bloody lips in that one example doesn't imply that it's as good as his one shot techniques are.  Also and again Aokiji isn't > Kizaru even though Aokiji has more impressive one shot techniques.  Crocodile isn't > Ivankov even though he has more impressive one shot techniques.  Sugar's character isn't > Diamante even though her character has more impressive one shot techniques.



Iam sure Jozu can break a neck and got the knowledge doing so from observing his stature. Does he have the feats to do so with an Admiral? Meehh.



Gohara said:


> Aokiji's feat is from using ice for a long time straight. Whether that makes his firepower on par with Fujitora's and Akainu's is a different discussion and so far seeing those Devil Fruits in action magma and gravity have superior firepower.



Akainu's feat was from using magma for a long time straight. Yet the island was divided 50:50, not 75:25 for Akainu due to having the greater firepower. So how was it 50:50 if Akainu have the greater firepower? No matter how you turn it, they were portrayed dead equal even on firepower, as shown by PH.



Gohara said:


> True however Bartolomeo easily besting Mayanard doesn't suggest that he's around Admiral tier like how easily besting Curiel doesn't suggest that a character is decisively superior to Yonkou First Mates.



Still Curiel got one shotted.



Gohara said:


> Distraction.



Still one shotted.



Gohara said:


> Multiple disadvantages.



Still one shotted for someone you expect to put up a fight.



Gohara said:


> True however isn't enough to really qualify as a disadvantage.  We know that characters of that caliber can land techniques on Admirals and have done so on many occasions.  Plus some would argue that those slashes land.  The standard of being around Admiral tier isn't slashing Akainu's head off in one slash.



It did nothing to him. Only the WSM was able to hit and damage him. Write that in your book. Lord Marco and Lord Vista couldn't even scratch Lord Sakazuki.



Gohara said:


> We have no idea if Marco's technique harms Kizaru at all because any harm would be bruises and Kizaru is wearing clothes.  Plus the point is that Marco has an advantage against Kizaru in that clash which is contrary to your point that Admirals always have advantages against top Yonkou Commander tier characters.



Lets see. Marco who can fly kicked down a character who was hovering mid air with no hold = Marco overpowering him


----------



## Mister LoLz (May 15, 2018)

ASL brothers could edge out a single admiral. 3 would be too much for 1 but 2 admirals are still stronger than them. Ace is lacking in power here.


----------



## Quipchaque (May 16, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Aokiji sent 1 attack, 1 and Ace melted it. It doesn't result in a all out battle where both were serious as fuck compared to Akainu vs Aokiji.
> Weren't you the one liking logic to the point of saying Ace got the advantage on Aokiji? Now you just deny that someone even stronger than Ace, who in fact burned Ace in their encounter barely defeated the ice man after 10 days. Why so much hypocrisy and iam biased, dishonest with selective reading?
> 
> 
> ...



I never said that it will result in an all out battle. I'm saying that your argument would fall apart if it has to be all out which is what you are implying if you say the PH feats from all out Aokiji are what put him significantly above Ace. (which BTW is true I already said I would expect a mid diff win but that was not the point)

-yep and that advantage for Ace is still there or are you finally going to explain what made the ice vaporize? Clearly when you can vaporize named attacks of an admiral there must be some kind of advantage involved. And before you start this "constant wall of fire" nonsense again who is to say Ace couldn't do just that in the tag team battle? 

-I'm not denying that. The problem is that you are assuming that Aokiji can do the same casually against Ace and that it was thanks to his devil fruit skills instead of Haki that he can keep up with Akainu based on an off panel battle. You gotta prove that first.

No minimizing damage is not the same as sacrificing yourself... Did you see Ace sacrifice himself when protecting Luffy from Aokiji?


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## TheOmega (May 16, 2018)

All I know is that ASL are gonna gang bang stomp Aokiji and then they're gonna do Kizaru like that tiger from their childhood lol

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Fel1x (May 16, 2018)

Ace would be Admiral level now if he didn't die in Marineford.
Sabo and Luffy will finish Kizaru and help Ace to finish Aokiji. Something like that

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (May 16, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I never said that it will result in an all out battle. I'm saying that your argument would fall apart if it has to be all out which is what you are implying if you say the PH feats from all out Aokiji are what put him significantly above Ace. (which BTW is true I already said I would expect a mid diff win but that was not the point)



All out battle is were Ace gets swatted aside by any serious Admiral like Luffy did with Trebol. He got no business here. Which will happen in the battledome as there will be no plot, no pis/cis involved for either side.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> -yep and that advantage for Ace is still there or are you finally going to explain what made the ice vaporize? Clearly when you can vaporize named attacks of an admiral there must be some kind of advantage involved. And before you start this "constant wall of fire" nonsense again who is to say Ace couldn't do just that in the tag team battle?



Ace's technique he used was a fire wall thats what it's literally called he needs to supply it with new fire as there is nothing to burn on a ice surface while Aokiji sents an alrdy created ice block at him. There's nothing impressive in that feat since from the scale, this is nothing for an Admiral. If you can't refute it, it's not nonense. Maybe you just need an update on attacks in OP.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> -I'm not denying that. The problem is that you are assuming that Aokiji can do the same casually against Ace and that it was thanks to his devil fruit skills instead of Haki that he can keep up with Akainu based on an off panel battle. You gotta prove that first.



Proof is there. PH is proof, the island is perfectly divided 50:50 in Ice/Snow and Magma/Fire. Yet i don't see scars on the landscape created from Aokiji the Haki spitsman. There is not a single point of evidence Aokiji has greater Haki than Akainu, but there is evidence that their DF power's were equal. There's no need to assume if we have on panel evidence for their powers being equal for 10 days.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> No minimizing damage is not the same as sacrificing yourself... Did you see Ace sacrifice himself when protecting Luffy from Aokiji?



Nope because they ran from him and met someone equal to him. Akainu was more dedicated to get them and so it happened.



TheOmega said:


> All I know is that ASL are gonna gang bang stomp Aokiji and then they're gonna do Kizaru like that tiger from their childhood lol



All we know here is that they can't do shit to him and will lose in the end.


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## Daisuke Jigen (May 16, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> 2 Mera Mera Users will literally Low Diff Aokiji


Wow, Sabo + Ace together are >>> Akainu? Never heard that one before.


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## TheWiggian (May 16, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Wow, Sabo + Ace together are >>> Akainu? Never heard that one before.



It's literally impressive how ignorant people are. They think Aokiji got no chance just because Ace melted a small ice block from him.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Quipchaque (May 16, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> All out battle is were Ace gets swatted aside by any serious Admiral like Luffy did with Trebol. He got no business here. Which will happen in the battledome as there will be no plot, no pis/cis involved for either side.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes if Aokiji goes all out against Ace I agree he will likely get decimated.But this match up is Ace with Sabo at his side against Ao. Sabo has already held his own against a top tier without even using named attacks. That should be a completely different match up. Ace could go for blind shots while Sabo keeps Aokiji occupied. That's just one of many  options.

The second paragraph is meaningless. We already agree that serious Aokiji should far outclass Ace but as mentioned above that doesn't mean it's easy to get rid of him in a tag team battle. We aren't talking about buggy the clown here I hope you remember that lol. This is the guy that can fight a 5 day battle and survive mountain level attacks. 

That's no proof because a) Aokiji was in fact weaker hence why he lost b) we still don't know if it was thanks to his Haki that he could counter the attacks .. or do you believe Aokiji attacked Akainu with non-haki infused attacks? I also didn't mention that Aokiji can spit haki lol.

You said Ace has to throw his body as a meatshield to minimize the potential damage from Aokijis attacks, clearly he doesn't though.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (May 16, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yes if Aokiji goes all out against Ace I agree he will likely get decimated.But this match up is Ace with Sabo at his side against Ao. Sabo has already held his own against a top tier without even using named attacks. That should be a completely different match up. Ace could go for blind shots while Sabo keeps Aokiji occupied. That's just one of many  options.



How exactly is Sabo going to help him if he couldn't do anything against a tangible Admiral?



DiscoZoro20 said:


> The second paragraph is meaningless. We already agree that serious Aokiji should far outclass Ace but as mentioned above that doesn't mean it's easy to get rid of him in a tag team battle. We aren't talking about buggy the clown here I hope you remember that lol. This is the guy that can fight a 5 day battle and survive mountain level attacks.



It's not meaningless. He might be able to fight someone for 5 days but someone far below Admiral's, that is fact. Once he was up against Admiral's the best he could do is block a low scale attack. He almost died from a karate chop and the Darkness - Light clash doesn't indicate he tanked the Yami attack but clashed with it. There's no evidence for it, he just lost somehow after that explosion.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> That's no proof because a) Aokiji was in fact weaker hence why he lost b) we still don't know if it was thanks to his Haki that he could counter the attacks .. or do you believe Aokiji attacked Akainu with non-haki infused attacks? I also didn't mention that Aokiji can spit haki lol.



Fact: Aokiji lost after 10 days against Akainu
Fact: It was an extremely difficult fight for both
Fact: PH was perfectly divided by their powers 50:50 and Smoker commented how ferocious it was that it changed the climate of an island. It seems like your a troll or just refuse to understand that they're evenly matched...

Here's the cnet translation to that event:



> _1(2b): Normally, Aokiji never shows much interest in anything. However, he was vehemently against Akainu becoming Fleet Admiral.
> 2: And so the two opposed each other.
> 3(3b): This kind of dispute was unheard of between admirals, and it finally came to a boil on a certain island. They decided to confront one another, to settle things once and for all. Dead men tell no tales. The loser would be allowed no further interference.
> 4: The governing of the entire Marine force would be entrusted to the hands of the winner.
> ...



We don't need your assumptions here or your opinion of not knowing details and how Aokiji uses Haki, ofc they use Haki against each other they're both logias and can't hurt each other without it.
Fact is they were a perfect match.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> You said Ace has to throw his body as a meatshield to minimize the potential damage from Aokijis attacks, clearly he doesn't though.



He preferred to run from Aokiji instead of melting more of this easy to melt ice, that should tell you were he stands.


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## TheOmega (May 16, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> Wow, Sabo + Ace together are >>> Akainu? Never heard that one before.



Yup never heard it cuz 2 people never had the same fruit at the same time before lol. One stops the ice and one attacks Aokiji directly. Luffy uses his KKG and that's one dead pheasant.

Then they proceed to go to work on lightsaber boi


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## TheWiggian (May 16, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> Yup never heard it cuz 2 people never had the same fruit at the same time before lol. One stops the ice and one attacks Aokiji directly. Luffy uses his KKG and that's one dead pheasant.
> 
> Then they proceed to go to work on lightsaber boi



While they think about it, Kizaru already chopped their heads off with his lightsaber and pierced their bodies with hundreds of lasers at lightspeed.


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## Daisuke Jigen (May 16, 2018)

TheOmega said:


> One stops the ice and one attacks Aokiji directly. Luffy uses his KKG and that's one dead pheasant.


And I'm assuming Kizaru is just standing in the background twiddling his thumbs because...?

Anyway, Ace is fodder to Admirals. Seriously, he is. He was taking serious damage from Blackbeard's punches. Admiral attacks >>>>>>>>>> punches from a guy who got fodderized by Whitebeard on his deathbed. Sabo and Luffy are the only ones who matter and they definitely aren't winning this fight at this point in time.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 16, 2018)

Ace is fodder. 

Aokiji and Kizaru win


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## Gohara (May 16, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Magma is superior to fire ---> Akainu's words.



Right however what you're arguing is that it's easily superior rather than simply superior.  As for those clashes, right except in the first clash Ace's character gets back up and the second clash isn't a clash rather Ace's character intentionally taking that technique.  Plus that's a significantly battle worn version of Ace's character negating most of those points.



TheWiggian said:


> I expect a logia Admiral that creates frozen oceans and uses freezing abilities to do that with his Hie Hie no Mi just as i expect the other logia Admiral that creates Volcanoes to use his Magu Magu no Mi for that.



Admirals are likely proficient at multiple combat styles.



TheWiggian said:


> In other words, Ace couldn't do anything except using his body as a meatshield.



While having no fair opportunities to create a counter and while significantly battle worn.



TheWiggian said:


> They all confronted Admiral's and not a single one came out victorious.



No Admirals have won those match ups fair and square as well.



TheWiggian said:


> But they never showcased superiority against the marines.



That can be said about the Admirals as well.  Plus that's arguably not even true because Luffy has overpowered Fujitora, Kizaru not shooting lasers with Beckman around that area and arguably only doing so after Beckman is miles into Marineford, Marco has overpowered Kizaru, etc..



TheWiggian said:


> Does he have the feats to do so with an Admiral?



You mean like the Admirals' necks being too physically strong?



TheWiggian said:


> Akainu's feat



Isn't based on firepower.  If it were the Admirals would have easily destroyed an Island far more easily.  The environment itself is effected because a lot of magma and ice are being used for a long time straight.  To effect the environment doesn't require a lot of offensive firepower.



TheWiggian said:


> Still Curiel got one shotted.



Ace's character is significantly superior to Curiel.



TheWiggian said:


> Still one shotted.





TheWiggian said:


> one shotted for someone you expect to put up a fight.



However Sugar's character can one shot any character in those specific circumstances.



TheWiggian said:


> It did nothing to him.



Again Kizaru doesn't one shot Pre Time Skip Supernova characters on many occasions so does that suggest that Kizaru can't one shot Pre Time Skip Supernova characters?  Plus if Marco can land techniques on other Admirals however not Akainu then how is Akainu not significantly superior to the other Admirals?



TheWiggian said:


> Marco who can fly kicked down a character who was hovering mid air with no hold = Marco overpowering him



We've seen Admirals effortlessly hover on multiple occasions so it's not like a normal jump.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (May 17, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Right however what you're arguing is that it's easily superior rather than simply superior.  As for those clashes, right except in the first clash Ace's character gets back up and the second clash isn't a clash rather Ace's character intentionally taking that technique.  Plus that's a significantly battle worn version of Ace's character negating most of those points.



I base this on Ace going down in one hit and there's nothing contradicting his inferiority in Df powers.



Gohara said:


> Admirals are likely proficient at multiple combat styles.



Alright show me the feats for their other combat styles on the scale of an island. I got 50 % magma and 50 % ice on PH as evidence for their DF usage. What you got?



Gohara said:


> While having no fair opportunities to create a counter and while significantly battle worn.



Thank god you start to understand how helpless he was against a superior being. He couldn't do a anythung vecause he lacked strenght, btw your god Shanks commented on Ace lacking strenght when meeting WB.



Gohara said:


> No Admirals have won those match ups fair and square as well.



It was fare and square as you haven't realized yet and the commanders alll dropped like flies.



Gohara said:


> That can be said about the Admirals as well.  Plus that's arguably not even true because Luffy has overpowered Fujitora, Kizaru not shooting lasers with Beckman around that area and arguably only doing so after Beckman is miles into Marineford, Marco has overpowered Kizaru, etc..



Admirals one shotted most of their match-ups at MF, talking about not showing superiority. Luffy and Marco overpowering Admirals in a world where Nami damages 1 of the 4 strongest pirates of the planet while Chopper tanks her hits, Jinbei overpowers her fair and square and the other of the strongest 4 strongest pirates gets his arm eaten by a fish EB Luffy one shotted.



Gohara said:


> You mean like the Admirals' necks being too physically strong?



I mean that this scenario doesn't happen unless it's an Aokiji that is laying on the ground right after Sakazuki defeated him.



Gohara said:


> Isn't based on firepower.  If it were the Admirals would have easily destroyed an Island far more easily.  The environment itself is effected because a lot of magma and ice are being used for a long time straight.  To effect the environment doesn't require a lot of offensive firepower.



Going in circles again 
Island is still split in their elements 50/50 doesn't matter how much power they used in your headcanon, they were perfectly matched.



Gohara said:


> Ace's character is significantly superior to Curiel.



Not much proof for that, the division number doesn't indicate their strenght at all.



Gohara said:


> However Sugar's character can one shot any character in those specific circumstances.



She can, but Haki can protect just like it can protect against Admirals, too bad they haven't showcased it.



Gohara said:


> Again Kizaru doesn't one shot Pre Time Skip Supernova characters on many occasions so does that suggest that Kizaru can't one shot Pre Time Skip Supernova characters?  Plus if Marco can land techniques on other Admirals however not Akainu then how is Akainu not significantly superior to the other Admirals?



Well he one shotted Zoro and Zoro is a SN. Marco can land hits on all Admirals, he even did so in the manga, but didn't damage a single one of them. Also Admiral's been all portrayed more or less equal.



Gohara said:


> We've seen Admirals effortlessly hover on multiple occasions so it's not like a normal jump.



Hovering is not the same as having solid ground to stand on.


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## Gohara (May 17, 2018)

Characters get knocked on the floor and get back a lot so Akainu knocking his character on the floor doesn't suggest a lot.  The other clash is again Ace's character intentionally taking that technique.  In a fair one on one match up Akainu wouldn't have that automatic opening.  Especially if a top Yonkou Commander tier character is matching up against Akainu as well.

Other combat styles is about creating scars not destroying islands.

What does it matter that a nerfed version of Ace's character can't do anything else while also making sure to protect Luffy from AoE against an Admiral?  That doesn't suggest anything about a fair one on one match up between Ace's character and an Admiral.  Since none of those disadvantages would be included.

How is it that match ups with disadvantages and distractions are Admirals winning those match ups fair and square?

A significantly battle worn version of Ace's character and Jozu are the only characters that were "one shotted" and again those were distractions.  We're not asking for proof that Admirals can do that if characters are distracted.  We're asking for proof that Admirals can easily best Ace's character in a fair match up while also matching up against a top Yonkou Commander tier character.  Sugar's character is capable of one shotting any character with those same distractions.

Nami's lightning doesn't do anything to Big Mam's character.

Chopper doesn't tank any techniques.  He "tanks" Big Mam's character's attempt to grab Nami.  We've seen characters inferior to Chopper tank full fledged punches from a Fleet Admiral.  Jinbe doesn't overpower that character because no resistance was offered against that punch.  If that's being overpowered then how was Fujitora not overpowered against a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy when Fujitora even attempts to defend and is still sent flying?

Why wouldn't that scenario happen if Aokiji is fully healed?  Is Aokiji's neck too physically strong to be broken from a character who is physically superior to the Admirals?

I'm saying that the same thing can happen whether or not their elements are equal.  All that is required is for them to both be using a lot of magma and ice for a long time straight and naturally those elements will both cover that island.  And even if you argued that it implies equality, which isn't automatically true, that would have more to do with energy and less to do with firepower.

Ace's character is significantly superior to Moriah who if I remember correctly is shown matching up against Curiel.

Haki wouldn't negate those Devil Fruit skills so I'm not sure what you mean and plus if they're distracted then naturally Haki wouldn't be automatic.  Therefore Sugar's character can still do that.

Kizaru doesn't one shot Zoro.  Because Zoro is capable of getting back up.  And even if that were the case it's not really a good example because that's a significantly battle worn Zoro.  And Zoro still isn't conclusively defeated from it so even being generous that argument would still apply.

We have no idea if Marco's kick wounds Kizaru's arm at all because we have no way of verifying if there are any bruises.  So I'm not sure why we would assume one way or the other.

Basically you would have to assume that Kizaru is gravity dependent while in the air.  If he is then your point makes sense.  However we've seen logias freely hover in the air a lot.  So it's unlikely that Kizaru's version of hovering means less ground to stand on.


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## Nox (May 17, 2018)

BB took Ace out in 4 hits. All the while he was preaching to him. He physically dominated him. Ace’s Logia is canonically inferior to Akainu. Kizaru’s fruit more so it’s explosiveness, heat emission gives Ace no immediate advantage or superiority. This leaves Kuzan. Whom Ace stopped one of his attacks. Which IIRC was intended for Luffy? Now suddenly convinced everyone Ace = Kuzan. Why are we pretending Kuzan doesn’t have physical capabailities equal to if not superior to Teach? Kuzan doesn’t have to trade DF powers with Ace. 

He can move in and dominate him the same way BB did. Afterall their battles are similar. In that DF wise Kuzan has an edge; in that he has executed greater AOE (Ocean, Tsunami) in faster speed; Comapred to Dai Entei [Ace’s Greatest Tech]. However, it’s not enough that Ace cannot counter. Refer to Teach using Kurozou but Ace would counter in the last minute. Kuzan is an Admiral, a militaristic position so he’s a battle vet. A battle of attrition is worthless; thought he might win since 10 day stamina vs Akainu > 5 day vs Jinbei. If he moves into CQC, he’s beating the shit outta Ace. If you honestly erroneously might i add believe Ace = Kuzan DF wise, try and think how then does Kuzan go 10 days with Akainu who’s > Ace DF.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (May 18, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Characters get knocked on the floor and get back a lot so Akainu knocking his character on the floor doesn't suggest a lot.  The other clash is again Ace's character intentionally taking that technique.  In a fair one on one match up Akainu wouldn't have that automatic opening.  Especially if a top Yonkou Commander tier character is matching up against Akainu as well.



Character is only showing his inferiority throughout the manga. Could he perform better, really questionable as the manga dictates otherwise. In a fair match-up Ace would've performed the same as we have a clear statement of Ace's DF being inferior to Akainu's. Thinking otherwise is speculation with no proof or hints.



Gohara said:


> Other combat styles is about creating scars not destroying islands.



Have they shown other fighting styles at MF? Kizaru and Aokiji can form swords from their elements and fight with them pretty proficiently, but then again it's their DF mastery that allows them to form said element weapon and it's their DF power that cuts through the flesh if they land a hit. You got some other evidence of their "other combat styles"? Be honest you have nothing.



Gohara said:


> What does it matter that a nerfed version of Ace's character can't do anything else while also making sure to protect Luffy from AoE against an Admiral?  That doesn't suggest anything about a fair one on one match up between Ace's character and an Admiral.  Since none of those disadvantages would be included.



There was no AOE from Akainu 5o begin with. Ace simply couldn't do anything and he shielded Luffy with his body. He was desperate against the overwhelming might of the Admiral.



Gohara said:


> How is it that match ups with disadvantages and distractions are Admirals winning those match ups fair and square?



They are fair and square simply because the Commanders had their chance of doing the same. There were no disadvantages for the Commanders just because they were dropped by lack of strenght.



Gohara said:


> Nami's lightning doesn't do anything to Big Mam's character.



I saw Big Mom screaming in pain, stopped for the moment and having marks of damage.



Gohara said:


> Chopper doesn't tank any techniques.  He "tanks" Big Mam's character's attempt to grab Nami.



He tanked a hit stop kidding yourself. You even see a classic popped out vein on her arm indicating she put some effort into that hit.



Gohara said:


> We've seen characters inferior to Chopper tank full fledged punches from a Fleet Admiral.  Jinbe doesn't overpower that character because no resistance was offered against that punch.  If that's being overpowered then how was Fujitora not overpowered against a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy when Fujitora even attempts to defend and is still sent flying?



It's okay. A W3 member blocked a angry hit of 1 of the 4 strongest pirates out there. A character which you consider being easily above the average admiral. Using your logic Jinbei even blitzed Big Mom at that point and then even overpowered her, please note how he overpowered her while she had solid ground to stand on while Marco overpowered a hovering Kizaru. Jinbei blitzing and overwhelming 1 of the strongest pirates out there also fits with Brook being able to blitz Big Mom, Nami damaging her and Chopper tanking a serious hit from her, all makes sense. Fujitora pushed a few meters he never lost foothold like Meme.



Gohara said:


> Why wouldn't that scenario happen if Aokiji is fully healed?  Is Aokiji's neck too physically strong to be broken from a character who is physically superior to the Admirals?



It won't happen simply because it was never shown to. 
Just as Ace performing better than he did at MF, it's all fanfiction.



Gohara said:


> I'm saying that the same thing can happen whether or not their elements are equal.  All that is required is for them to both be using a lot of magma and ice for a long time straight and naturally those elements will both cover that island.  And even if you argued that it implies equality, which isn't automatically true, that would have more to do with energy and less to do with firepower.



Clear manga statement of them being perfectly matched and PH being the example is >>> your opinion.



Gohara said:


> Ace's character is significantly superior to Moriah who if I remember correctly is shown matching up against Curiel.



There is no real proof for that even if i agree.



Gohara said:


> Haki wouldn't negate those Devil Fruit skills so I'm not sure what you mean and plus if they're distracted then naturally Haki wouldn't be automatic.  Therefore Sugar's character can still do that.



It does defend against hax reread it in the manga. Character's are capable of countering disadvantages at the last second if they have the abilities and strenght for it.

You view Jozu physically much stronger than any Admiral yet he couldn't damage Aokiji beyond a bloody lip. Classic easy example.




Gohara said:


> Kizaru doesn't one shot Zoro.  Because Zoro is capable of getting back up.  And even if that were the case it's not really a good example because that's a significantly battle worn Zoro.  And Zoro still isn't conclusively defeated from it so even being generous that argument would still apply.



Zoro was down after a laser and had to be saved by the strawhats.



Gohara said:


> We have no idea if Marco's kick wounds Kizaru's arm at all because we have no way of verifying if there are any bruises.  So I'm not sure why we would assume one way or the other.



Nitpicking. Kizaru came out unscathed from the war just like Hancock and Mihawk >>> your opinion.



Gohara said:


> Basically you would have to assume that Kizaru is gravity dependent while in the air.  If he is then your point makes sense.  However we've seen logias freely hover in the air a lot.  So it's unlikely that Kizaru's version of hovering means less ground to stand on.



How many times again. Not everything in OP can be explained with rl physics, why are you guys so stiff about that? And if you really wanna go that route why can't even light escape gravity?



NOX said:


> BB took Ace out in 4 hits. All the while he was preaching to him. He physically dominated him. Ace’s Logia is canonically inferior to Akainu. Kizaru’s fruit more so it’s explosiveness, heat emission gives Ace no immediate advantage or superiority. This leaves Kuzan. Whom Ace stopped one of his attacks. Which IIRC was intended for Luffy? Now suddenly convinced everyone Ace = Kuzan. Why are we pretending Kuzan doesn’t have physical capabailities equal to if not superior to Teach? Kuzan doesn’t have to trade DF powers with Ace.
> 
> He can move in and dominate him the same way BB did. Afterall their battles are similar. In that DF wise Kuzan has an edge; in that he has executed greater AOE (Ocean, Tsunami) in faster speed; Comapred to Dai Entei [Ace’s Greatest Tech]. However, it’s not enough that Ace cannot counter. Refer to Teach using Kurozou but Ace would counter in the last minute. Kuzan is an Admiral, a militaristic position so he’s a battle vet. A battle of attrition is worthless; thought he might win since 10 day stamina vs Akainu > 5 day vs Jinbei. If he moves into CQC, he’s beating the shit outta Ace. If you honestly erroneously might i add believe Ace = Kuzan DF wise, try and think how then does Kuzan go 10 days with Akainu who’s > Ace DF.



They can't follow that logic. They see Ace melting ice and immediately state he is = in DF power or even superior.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (May 19, 2018)

Devil Fruits superiority don't automatically make the opposing Devil Fruits completely worthless and the opponents characters having no ways of landing techniques.  Magma is superior to fire however that doesn't necessarily suggest that fire can't do anything to magma.  Plus if a character is using Haki they don't necessarily need to interact with magma to land techniques.

Marines are trained in hand to hand combat and even Vice Admirals can use Rokushiki techniques.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense for the Admirals to not have an even superior mastery of Rokushiki techniques than most Vice Admirals.  Also none of my arguments are dependent on that point at all.  It's your argument that needs to prove that Aokiji's Devil Fruit Skills are what creates those scars on Akainu I'm simply suggesting that we have no idea.

Ace's character in those specific circumstances has like 4 seconds to react to Akainu's lava which is absurdly disadvantageous and that's not even including Ace's character being significantly battle worn.  Ace's character would also have to consider any AoE which is always possible when a character is throwing a high volume of lava around.  Whether Akainu is throwing a lot of lava around in that specific clash is irrelevant to what Ace's character would have to consider going into that clash.  It's still a consideration that he would have to make since he doesn't have that hindsight reasoning that we do and doesn't know that lava isn't thrown around and his character would have to consider all of those things within like 4 seconds.  If Ace's character does that though then what defends Luffy?  None of those circumstances would apply in a fair one on one match up.  That's why it doesn't make a lot of sense to use that clash as a comparison of what a fair one on one match up might be like between Ace's character and an Admiral.

Again Sugar's character having those same opportunities would be able to one shot any character.  You can't rightfully make those arguments without implying that Sugar's character is top tier.

Big Mam's character is yelling throughout that Arc so attributing it to that is subjective and unlikely.  Those marks aren't wounds otherwise they would consistently be shown and that would imply that a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy wounds Fujitora.  Those characters' reactions suggest that those lightning techniques don't do anything.  They were amazed at that degree of firepower and amazed again when those techniques don't scratch that character.

The only technique that it could have been if not an attempt to grab or a basic slap is a palm strike except the stance and application of it is nothing like a palm strike.  And even a basic slap would have reduced momentum because of that stance.  Previously those same characters are running away from a slap from that same character.  If Chopper thought of the firepower of those slaps the way that you do then why not simply tank all of them?  Veins show when characters are angry as well so that point doesn't really counter any of those previous points.

Luffy overpowers Fujitora because attempts to defend with his sword and is still sent flying.  Jinbe lands a technique on a nerfed Yonkou who doesn't even attempt to counter that technique so what is there for Jinbe to overpower?  I would argue that your points use the word blitzed too arbitrarily however it's not like I disagree that character is one of the least fast top tier characters.  When that Yonkou does attempt to counter her character has shown to easily block Gear 4th Luffy who is significantly physically superior to Jinbe.  Which should tell you the difference between standing there and intentionally taking a punch and actually attempting to counter a punch.

None of those points make sense though because most of them are being assumed and/or didn't even happen.

Okay so Kizaru can't conclusively best any Pre Time Skip Supernovas since it has yet to be shown?

Ace's character being able to perform superior feats while fully healed compared to being significantly battle worn is fan fiction?  How so?

Not that I agree that they're perfectly matched however being perfectly matched in combined skills doesn't suggest being perfectly matched specifically in Devil Fruits.  Also if they're perfectly matched it doesn't make any sense for Akainu to have won that match up and not to mention still have enough energy to land a decisive technique and create more wounds.

Using that reasoning there's no proof for almost anything.

Sai and Chinjao can use Haki and yet don't counter that toy technique and I don't remember Haki outright and completely negating the effects of a Devil Fruit like sea stone hand cuffs do.  We're discussing circumstances in which they have no opportunities to react so arguing that characters can react at the last second has no commentary on our discussion.

It does defend against hax reread it in the manga. Character's are capable of countering disadvantages at the last second if they have the abilities and strenght for it.

Again there's a significant difference between can't and didn't.  Plus how would arguing that as an impressive defensive feat for Aokiji suggest that Jozu isn't physically superior to the Admirals?

Zoro withstands a lot of techniques prior to matching up against Kizaru so I don't see how Kizaru's lasers would get credit for one shotting a Zoro who still wasn't conclusively defeated.

It's not nitpicking to suggest that we have no idea if characters have bruises from verified techniques when their clothes are covering those areas.

If we're using One Piece's version of physics that works even more for my argument because you're arguing that Kizaru is gravity dependent when arguing that he has no foothold.


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## TheWiggian (May 19, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Devil Fruits superiority don't automatically make the opposing Devil Fruits completely worthless and the opponents characters having no ways of landing techniques.  Magma is superior to fire however that doesn't necessarily suggest that fire can't do anything to magma.  Plus if a character is using Haki they don't necessarily need to interact with magma to land techniques.



It's exactly the opposite. Ace was inferior, he couldn't do anything against magma, DFwise Eneru couldn't do anything against Luffy.



Gohara said:


> Marines are trained in hand to hand combat and even Vice Admirals can use Rokushiki techniques.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense for the Admirals to not have an even superior mastery of Rokushiki techniques than most Vice Admirals.  Also none of my arguments are dependent on that point at all.  It's your argument that needs to prove that Aokiji's Devil Fruit Skills are what creates those scars on Akainu I'm simply suggesting that we have no idea.



Lol Aokiji displayed lethality of destroying Jozu's arm. Akainu have shown lethality of melting off body parts like against WB and Aokiji. You can suggest for yourself, manga shows that the Admirals do it with their fruits.



Gohara said:


> Ace's character in those specific circumstances has like 4 seconds to react to Akainu's lava which is absurdly disadvantageous and that's not even including Ace's character being significantly battle worn.  Ace's character would also have to consider any AoE which is always possible when a character is throwing a high volume of lava around.  Whether Akainu is throwing a lot of lava around in that specific clash is irrelevant to what Ace's character would have to consider going into that clash.  It's still a consideration that he would have to make since he doesn't have that hindsight reasoning that we do and doesn't know that lava isn't thrown around and his character would have to consider all of those things within like 4 seconds.  If Ace's character does that though then what defends Luffy?  None of those circumstances would apply in a fair one on one match up.  That's why it doesn't make a lot of sense to use that clash as a comparison of what a fair one on one match up might be like between Ace's character and an Admiral.



Ace was down for the count after 1 hit, he couldn't do anything against the second one that was not even aimed at him. Ace is too weak against top tiers, he is not doing shit here. Your stonewalling got no weight.



Gohara said:


> Again Sugar's character having those same opportunities would be able to one shot any character.  You can't rightfully make those arguments without implying that Sugar's character is top tier.



Sugar haven't been shown to one shot characters of that caliber. You seem very desperate here. You can't just go out and give some fodder feats of a top tier especially with Haki around.



Gohara said:


> Big Mam's character is yelling throughout that Arc so attributing it to that is subjective and unlikely.  Those marks aren't wounds otherwise they would consistently be shown and that would imply that a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy wounds Fujitora.  Those characters' reactions suggest that those lightning techniques don't do anything.  They were amazed at that degree of firepower and amazed again when those techniques don't scratch that character.



I thought that's how evidence works for you. You consider Luffy to overpower Fujitora with G3 there so then it means, Nami damaged Big Mom, Brook and Jinbei blitzed Big Mom, Jinbei also overpowered Big Mom and Chopper can tank Big Mom's hits.



Gohara said:


> The only technique that it could have been if not an attempt to grab or a basic slap is a palm strike except the stance and application of it is nothing like a palm strike.  And even a basic slap would have reduced momentum because of that stance.  Previously those same characters are running away from a slap from that same character.  If Chopper thought of the firepower of those slaps the way that you do then why not simply tank all of them?  Veins show when characters are angry as well so that point doesn't really counter any of those previous points.



Dude she got veins popping out on her arm, that was a full power strike. Veins and dirt marks are evidence for you, so don't deny her trying hard.



Gohara said:


> Luffy overpowers Fujitora because attempts to defend with his sword and is still sent flying.  Jinbe lands a technique on a nerfed Yonkou who doesn't even attempt to counter that technique so what is there for Jinbe to overpower?  I would argue that your points use the word blitzed too arbitrarily however it's not like I disagree that character is one of the least fast top tier characters.  When that Yonkou does attempt to counter her character has shown to easily block Gear 4th Luffy who is significantly physically superior to Jinbe.  Which should tell you the difference between standing there and intentionally taking a punch and actually attempting to counter a punch.



Jinbei overpowered her, she couldn't even block because he was too fast for her but she definitely struggled visibly to not get sent off. Blocking G4 is an outlier since all her other feats lack compared to that one.



Gohara said:


> None of those points make sense though because most of them are being assumed and/or didn't even happen.



They do. You just don't want them to because it would look bad for the Yonkou and Commanders.



Gohara said:


> Okay so Kizaru can't conclusively best any Pre Time Skip Supernovas since it has yet to be shown?



Kizaru 1 shotted Zoro are you high or what?



Gohara said:


> Ace's character being able to perform superior feats while fully healed compared to being significantly battle worn is fan fiction?  How so?



Because there is no evidence that he would perform better as seen against a weaker opponent like BB.



Gohara said:


> Not that I agree that they're perfectly matched however being perfectly matched in combined skills doesn't suggest being perfectly matched specifically in Devil Fruits.  Also if they're perfectly matched it doesn't make any sense for Akainu to have won that match up and not to mention still have enough energy to land a decisive technique and create more wounds.



They were perfectly matched > your opinion. You want them to fight for decades without a break? 10 days indicate clearly how equal they were till Akainu finally got the edge with extreme diff.



Gohara said:


> Using that reasoning there's no proof for almost anything.



So you agree that real life physics can't always explain OP events especially if they contradict them directly?



Gohara said:


> Sai and Chinjao can use Haki and yet don't counter that toy technique and I don't remember Haki outright and completely negating the effects of a Devil Fruit like sea stone hand cuffs do.  We're discussing circumstances in which they have no opportunities to react so arguing that characters can react at the last second has no commentary on our discussion.



Sai and Chinjao are fodders to top tiers. Vergo was known to be able to completly nullify Law's DF effects on him before post TS. No time to react, what a cheap excuse.



Gohara said:


> Again there's a significant difference between can't and didn't.  Plus how would arguing that as an impressive defensive feat for Aokiji suggest that Jozu isn't physically superior to the Admirals?



So significant that Ace and Jozu couldn't and didn't in time. Akainu and Aokiji fucked both over with 1 hit.



Gohara said:


> Zoro withstands a lot of techniques prior to matching up against Kizaru so I don't see how Kizaru's lasers would get credit for one shotting a Zoro who still wasn't conclusively defeated.



A superior Luffy was also done after a laser beam at MF. If not for Ivankov's hormones, he wouldn't have been able to stand up.



Gohara said:


> It's not nitpicking to suggest that we have no idea if characters have bruises from verified techniques when their clothes are covering those areas.



We saw Kizaru together with Hancock and Mihawk coming out unscathed > your assumptions. Marco haven't hurt anyone with his kicks at MF.



Gohara said:


> If we're using One Piece's version of physics that works even more for my argument because you're arguing that Kizaru is gravity dependent when arguing that he has no foothold.



I see you smoking good stuff. Anyway that kick did nothing to the Admiral and haven't even overpowered him to begin with.


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## Canute87 (May 20, 2018)

Luke said:


> Kuzan managed to last an incredibly long amount of time against Akainu despite being at a disadvantage. I don't see Sabo + Ace being as strong as Sakazuki at this point.



if he was able to last a long time then he wasn't disadvantaged.


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## Luke (May 20, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> if he was able to last a long time then he wasn't disadvantaged.



What? If we're going by the logic that the Fire DFs have an advantage over Ice DFs then Kuzan was disadvantaged in that sense against Akainu, but* despite that *still managed to hold his own for a long time, which shows he's not easy to put down, not that he wasn't disadvantaged...I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.


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## Canute87 (May 20, 2018)

Luke said:


> What? If we're going by the logic that the Fire DFs have an advantage over Ice DFs then Kuzan was disadvantaged in that sense against Akainu, but* despite that *still managed to hold his own for a long time, which shows he's not easy to put down, not that he wasn't disadvantaged...I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.



fire does not have advantage over  kiji's DF.

Akainu's slight superiority was due to he himself being overall stronger.


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## Luke (May 20, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> fire does not have advantage over  kiji's DF.
> 
> Akainu's slight superiority was due to he himself being overall stronger.



I can agree with that. In fact I think the whole Devil Fruit advantage thing is stupid in the first place and is only in the story because Oda didn't figure out the concept of Haki yet. I was just going by what others in the thread were saying about Sabo + Ace beating Kuzan because of a Devil Fruit advantage, because I don't see that happening after we saw how much of a fight he put up against Akainu.


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## Canute87 (May 20, 2018)

Luke said:


> I can agree with that. In fact I think the whole Devil Fruit advantage thing is stupid in the first place and is only in the story because Oda didn't figure out the concept of Haki yet. I was just going by what others in the thread were saying about Sabo + Ace beating Kuzan because of a Devil Fruit advantage, because I don't see that happening after we saw how much of a fight he put up against Akainu.



10 day extreme difficulty fight and ended up giving the magma man frost bite.

Their powers were both extremely damaging to each other.

It will help though.  G4 strength augmented by flame plus his own haki should help against the freezing but what happens when the G4 runs out?


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## Gohara (May 23, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Ace was inferior, he couldn't do anything against magma



That's the point that you made most recently which I address in my most recent post.  Inferiority =/= being incapable of doing anything.



TheWiggian said:


> DFwise Eneru couldn't do anything against Luffy.



If anything that's a good example for my argument because even despite rubber being immune to lightning God Enel still puts up a great match up against Luffy.  Furthermore I'm not disagreeing that there are Devil Fruits that can be incapable of doing anything against specific Devil Fruits.  However superiority doesn't necessarily automatically make the opposing Devil Fruit incapable of doing anything.  There has to be some proof of that and Akainu besting a significantly battle worn Ace in 1 clash simply isn't anywhere near enough proof of that.  Again magma being superior to fire is obvious and I'm not disagreeing with that.



TheWiggian said:


> Aokiji displayed lethality of destroying Jozu's arm.



I've never disagreed that if Aokiji successfully freezes a body part he can then break that body part off.  That lacks a correlation to the point that you're arguing.



TheWiggian said:


> Ace was down for the count after 1 hit



A significantly battle worn Ace was knocked down and got back up.



TheWiggian said:


> he couldn't do anything against the second one that was not even aimed at him.



Okay and doing that against a significantly battle worn Ace who isn't given any time to react and who intentionally takes that technique is significantly different than Akainu effortlessly besting a fully healed Ace in a fair one on one match up.



TheWiggian said:


> Sugar haven't been shown to one shot characters of that caliber.



Whoever Sugar's character touches turns into a toy automatically.  Being of a significantly higher caliber doesn't somehow automatically negate that rule.  Also and again we're discussing characters who are distracted.  Even if I agreed with your point on Haki that wouldn't be relevant to that discussion because Haki isn't automatic.



TheWiggian said:


> I thought that's how evidence works for you. You consider Luffy to overpower Fujitora with G3 there so then it means, Nami damaged Big Mom, Brook and Jinbei blitzed Big Mom, Jinbei also overpowered Big Mom and Chopper can tank Big Mom's hits.



If that is how evidence works for me why wouldn't I have been arguing that Luffy wounds Fujitora?  Dirt marks aren't wounds.  Also Nami is using the skills of Big Mam's character to create those techniques so I don't see how that's even a feat for Nami to begin with.  Luffy overpowering Fujitora is evident from the obvious fact that Fujitora is sent pushed back even though he attempts to resist it with his sword.  Big Mam's character does not attempt to resist Jinbe's technique therefore it's not the same thing as Luffy vs. Fujitora.  I don't know why you think that evidence works that way for me when I've made that difference clear on multiple occasions.



TheWiggian said:


> Dude she got veins popping out on her arm, that was a full power strike.



I have explained how veins aren't evidence for that and provided reasoning for why it isn't a full fledged technique and you have yet to address those reasons.  Also the fact that an infinitely inferior version of Big Mam's character can easily overpower a legendary New World character famed for their physical strength should tell you that it's not a full fledged technique.



TheWiggian said:


> he was too fast for her



Or because of salt water being splashed on her character.



TheWiggian said:


> but she definitely struggled visibly to not get sent off.



Where?



TheWiggian said:


> Blocking G4 is an outlier since all her other feats lack compared to that one.



Most if not all of the feats that you're using in your argument have questionable interpretations and they're from a nerfed version of a Yonkou.  Why wouldn't I take an easily more clear feat from when a Yonkou isn't nerfed?  Also there's that feat of easily overpowering a character physically superior to Chopper while at like 0.0000000000000001% of her character's current physical strength.



TheWiggian said:


> Kizaru 1 shotted Zoro are you high or what?



When a character has withstood many wounds a laser that doesn't even conclusively defeat them is not one shotting.  One shotting is when a laser conclusively defeats a fully healed character who is incapacitated from that laser.  Zoro's defense is more exceptional than many characters who get up from those same lasers throughout that Arc.



TheWiggian said:


> Because there is no evidence that he would perform better



A fully healed character having a superior performance to a significantly battle worn version of those same characters is obvious.  Maybe what you're trying to argue is that a fully healed version of Ace's character would be bested from Pre Time Skip Akainu with no difficulty however there's no evidence of that.  Obviously we can't rightfully use nerfed versions of Ace's character to make that argument.  Especially from 1 clash.



TheWiggian said:


> They were perfectly matched > your opinion.



So then Akainu has no energy at all after that match up and the same degree of wounds as Aokiji?  Because there is evidence contradicting both of those points.



TheWiggian said:


> So you agree that real life physics can't always explain OP events



I'm not sure why you think that my arguments think otherwise.



TheWiggian said:


> Sai and Chinjao are fodders to top tiers.



Yet significantly superior to Sugar's character.  And plus I'm not talking about top tier characters.



TheWiggian said:


> Vergo was known to be able to completly nullify Law's DF effects on him before post TS.



Law's character needs to cut in order to use his Devil Fruit.  Vergo negating the cut because of Haki means that the Devil Fruit can't be used.  Also Vergo's superior Haki doesn't negate multiple of Law's techniques throughout that match up.



TheWiggian said:


> No time to react, what a cheap excuse.



Admiral => Yonkou fans claim that Akainu doesn't have enough time to react to Whitebeard's techniques even though he is verbally told of Whitebeard's presence multiple panels prior to Whitebeard landing those techniques.

Jozu has none of those advantages so I'm not sure why you would call it an excuse when you're okay with that reasoning being used for Akainu.



TheWiggian said:


> So significant that Ace and Jozu couldn't and didn't in time.



That isn't really a response to my point.  And that doesn't address that can't and didn't are different.



TheWiggian said:


> A superior Luffy was also done after a laser beam at MF.



That's another example of using a feat from Kizaru against a character who is already absurdly battle worn.  Again that is not what one shotting is.



TheWiggian said:


> We saw Kizaru together with Hancock and Mihawk coming out unscathed



Not only is that point something that I address with the text that you're quoting it also lacks relevancy because so do characters like Helmeppo's character.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (May 23, 2018)

Gohara said:


> That's the point that you made most recently which I address in my most recent post.  Inferiority =/= being incapable of doing anything.



But he was inferior and couldn't do anything against Akainu. Ace can't do shit to Akainu that's a manga fact.



Gohara said:


> If anything that's a good example for my argument because even despite rubber being immune to lightning God Enel still puts up a great match up against Luffy.  Furthermore I'm not disagreeing that there are Devil Fruits that can be incapable of doing anything against specific Devil Fruits.  However superiority doesn't necessarily automatically make the opposing Devil Fruit incapable of doing anything.  There has to be some proof of that and Akainu besting a significantly battle worn Ace in 1 clash simply isn't anywhere near enough proof of that.  Again magma being superior to fire is obvious and I'm not disagreeing with that.



When Eneru realized that he tried to engage Luffy with CQC and lost aswell. After that he ran away from Luffy. That man lost in all categories, DF powers, Melee combat and willpower. And Ace still can't do anything against Akainu.



Gohara said:


> I've never disagreed that if Aokiji successfully freezes a body part he can then break that body part off. That lacks a correlation to the point that you're arguing.



How does it lacks when my point was that Aokiji can hurt someone superior to Ace?



Gohara said:


> A significantly battle worn Ace was knocked down and got back up.


And then he died. Funny argument.



Gohara said:


> Okay and doing that against a significantly battle worn Ace who isn't given any time to react and who intentionally takes that technique is significantly different than Akainu effortlessly besting a fully healed Ace in a fair one on one match up.


Thats all excuses no one cares about in the battledome. If Ace was more than just hot shit he would've done more than shown but we saw his limit. He couldn't do anything against overwhelming power.




Gohara said:


> Whoever Sugar's character touches turns into a toy automatically.  Being of a significantly higher caliber doesn't somehow automatically negate that rule.  Also and again we're discussing characters who are distracted.  Even if I agreed with your point on Haki that wouldn't be relevant to that discussion because Haki isn't automatic.


Yet she never touched anyone besides fodders to top tiers. Live with that fact. 



Gohara said:


> If that is how evidence works for me why wouldn't I have been arguing that Luffy wounds Fujitora?  Dirt marks aren't wounds.  Also Nami is using the skills of Big Mam's character to create those techniques so I don't see how that's even a feat for Nami to begin with.  Luffy overpowering Fujitora is evident from the obvious fact that Fujitora is sent pushed back even though he attempts to resist it with his sword.  Big Mam's character does not attempt to resist Jinbe's technique therefore it's not the same thing as Luffy vs. Fujitora.  I don't know why you think that evidence works that way for me when I've made that difference clear on multiple occasions.


This is how evidence works. You consider Luffy overpowering Issho isn't that a fact? Alright Luffy overpowers Fujitora i can live with that, just as i can live with Brook and Jinbei blitzing furious Big Mom, Chopper easily tanking her Melee attacks and Nami damaging her to the point of the Yonkou screaming in pain.



Gohara said:


> I have explained how veins aren't evidence for that and provided reasoning for why it isn't a full fledged technique and you have yet to address those reasons.  Also the fact that an infinitely inferior version of Big Mam's character can easily overpower a legendary New World character famed for their physical strength should tell you that it's not a full fledged technique.


Yep and a much stronger Big Mom fails to damage a weak trio fighter liker Chopper with a clearly powerful strike.



Gohara said:


> Or because of salt water being splashed on her character.


Sea water only affect DF users if it goes up to their knees, you as a tier specialist should know this by now. Jinbei blitzes Big Mom when she was enraged.



Gohara said:


> Where?


In the manga.



Gohara said:


> Most if not all of the feats that you're using in your argument have questionable interpretations and they're from a nerfed version of a Yonkou.  Why wouldn't I take an easily more clear feat from when a Yonkou isn't nerfed?  Also there's that feat of easily overpowering a character physically superior to Chopper while at like 0.0000000000000001% of her character's current physical strength.


Iam not the tier specialist here. You seem very desperate that the Yonkou lost so much face with Big Mom, better hope another sea king doesn't eat Shanks second arm else BB will get that PK title way too easy.



Gohara said:


> When a character has withstood many wounds a laser that doesn't even conclusively defeat them is not one shotting.  One shotting is when a laser conclusively defeats a fully healed character who is incapacitated from that laser.  Zoro's defense is more exceptional than many characters who get up from those same lasers throughout that Arc.


In a filler maybe. Anyway Apo was also one shotted so yes Kizaru can one shot pre ts SN's but it shouldn't even be a question because he is a troll and you never know when a serious hit comes from him. From what the manga has shown he can easily one shot those calibers with his high end attacks when casual lightspeed kicks are enough for them.



Gohara said:


> A fully healed character having a superior performance to a significantly battle worn version of those same characters is obvious.  Maybe what you're trying to argue is that a fully healed version of Ace's character would be bested from Pre Time Skip Akainu with no difficulty however there's no evidence of that. Obviously we can't rightfully use nerfed versions of Ace's character to make that argument.  Especially from 1 clash.


You also have no evidence that Ace would've performed better but somehow your opinion outweights mine? Good gag tier specialist Gohara.
With the DF performance Ace had he is not performing much better if at all to his MF self.



Gohara said:


> So then Akainu has no energy at all after that match up and the same degree of wounds as Aokiji?  Because there is evidence contradicting both of those points.


You can type as much as you want i still see nothing refuting this:


> _1(2b): Normally, Aokiji never shows much interest in anything. However, he was vehemently against Akainu becoming Fleet Admiral.
> 2: And so the two opposed each other.
> 3(3b): This kind of dispute was unheard of between admirals, and it finally came to a boil on a certain island. They decided to confront one another, to settle things once and for all. Dead men tell no tales. The loser would be allowed no further interference.
> 4: The governing of the entire Marine force would be entrusted to the hands of the winner.
> ...






Gohara said:


> I'm not sure why you think that my arguments think otherwise.


Sorry i can't help you if you can't see how you contradict yourself.



Gohara said:


> Yet significantly superior to Sugar's character.  And plus I'm not talking about top tier characters.


No evidence for that boy, she was able to react to Kyros who is superior to both but still miles below top tiers.



Gohara said:


> Law's character needs to cut in order to use his Devil Fruit.  Vergo negating the cut because of Haki means that the Devil Fruit can't be used.  Also Vergo's superior Haki doesn't negate multiple of Law's techniques throughout that match up.


He was known to negate all effects of Law's DF on his body till post TS. 



Gohara said:


> Admiral => Yonkou fans claim that Akainu doesn't have enough time to react to Whitebeard's techniques even though he is verbally told of Whitebeard's presence multiple panels prior to Whitebeard landing those techniques.


Iam not claiming Admirals are > Yonkou i put them all on the same ground with Akainu and Kaidou having the edge against the others.



Gohara said:


> Jozu has none of those advantages so I'm not sure why you would call it an excuse when you're okay with that reasoning being used for Akainu.


Jozu had his opportunity of getting in a blind shot and he failed to do anything remarkable.




Gohara said:


> That isn't really a response to my point.  And that doesn't address that can't and didn't are different.


Neither a response to mine when you come around with excues for the Commanders.




Gohara said:


> That's another example of using a feat from Kizaru against a character who is already absurdly battle worn.  Again that is not what one shotting is.


Dude they got one shotted because they were too weak to tank or endure those attacks. We also got evidence for them being too weak.
They had to do a timeskip to grow strong enough for the NW. YOur god Shanks commented on how Ace was not ready yet to face a caliber like BB who in fact is weaker than the other top tiers. Just take the L instead of running from the inevitable.



Gohara said:


> Not only is that point something that I address with the text that you're quoting it also lacks relevancy because so do characters like Helmeppo's character.


Look you blame Oda for not removing Kizarus clothes too show those brutal bruises and dirt marks on Kizarus body while i legit say he came out unscathed out of the 3 people at MF.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Samehadaman (May 23, 2018)

Respect to posters who still have a go at Gohara in Admiral related threads.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## g4snake108 (May 23, 2018)

I don't know why or how this thread got to 6 pages.If kizaru can find time while battling whitebeard(and injuring him with lasers) to destroy the key in luffy's hand some distance away,he can easily find time while fighting g4 to pop a laser through ace's head casually.And I will say goodluck to people who will continue to argue a 2vs2 with the admirals losing...


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## Gohara (May 23, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> But he was inferior



I agree with that.  However I'm asking for proof of a correlation between that and:



TheWiggian said:


> Ace can't do shit to Akainu



And using an example where Ace's character is significantly battle worn with other disadvantages and intentionally takes a technique simply isn't anywhere near enough proof for suggesting that it would be the same in a fair one on one match up and/or a match up in which Akainu is being occupied against other characters.



TheWiggian said:


> When Eneru realized that he tried to engage Luffy with CQC and lost aswell. After that he ran away from Luffy. That man lost in all categories, DF powers, Melee combat and willpower.



I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at so I'll simplify that with a question: what difficulty in your opinion does God Enel give Luffy in that match up?  Also that example is besides the point.  Magma is superior to fire however it has yet to be said that magma nullifies fire and all of it's useful attributes.



TheWiggian said:


> How does it lacks when my point was that Aokiji can hurt someone superior to Ace?



I'm confused as to why you think that I think that Aokiji can't wound characters superior to Ace's character?



TheWiggian said:


> Funny argument.



If the Admirals need a significantly battle worn Yonkou Commander of that caliber to intentionally take their techniques and/or to be distracted then how is it suppose to change the arguments of the Yonkou > Admiral fans who argue that top Yonkou Commander tier characters can match up on par with Admirals in fair one on one match ups?



TheWiggian said:


> Thats all excuses no one cares about in the battledome.



I respectfully disagree.  I see that reasoning used to defend Akainu when he gets bested from a significantly nerfed version of a Yonkou and Akainu's is even less disadvantageous than those other examples.



TheWiggian said:


> If Ace was more than just hot shit he would've done more than shown but we saw his limit.



In addition to not getting a fair opportunity to counter Akainu aiming a technique at Luffy his character is also significantly battle worn so in what way is that getting to see the full degree of his character's skills?



TheWiggian said:


> Yet she never touched anyone besides fodders to top tiers.



Which has no commentary on your point that it would automatically not work against top tier characters.  If it were about how skilled characters are then Sugar's character wouldn't be able to use those techniques against any characters significantly superior top tier or not.  That is also not how Devil Fruits work.  Plus even if it were it would be irrelevant as we're discussing distracted characters whose Haki isn't automatic.



TheWiggian said:


> You consider Luffy overpowering Issho isn't that a fact?



Yes except that is based on Fujitora undeniably defending with his sword.  I can prove that Fujitora holds his sword up.  You can't prove that Big Mam's character is using a full fledged technique and there is even significant evidence against it.  We've seen her character do a lot more using a lot less against characters superior to Chopper.  That and it doesn't at all resemble a palm strike in mechanics.  You can't prove that Jinbe blitzes her character and I'm confused as to how it is at all blitzing.  You agree that dirt marks aren't wounds so I'm not sure why you're still using that Nami argument.  Also Nami is using Zeus which negates that entire argument to begin with.  The Brook point is easily the point that you're making with the most evidence and even that is debatable and is irrelevant to begin with because I wouldn't find it strange for Brook to have superior speed to a Yonkou.



TheWiggian said:


> Yep and a much stronger Big Mom fails to damage a weak trio fighter liker Chopper with a clearly powerful strike.



Which should explain to you why it's not a full fledged technique.  At barely more than a toddler without Haki and without a Devil Fruit her character easily overpowers a character superior to Chopper.  That technique also doesn't at all resemble a palm strike in mechanics.  All that evidence is against that argument.



TheWiggian said:


> Sea water only affect DF users if it goes up to their knees



Jinbe splashes that water all around her character's body.  Plus that is not even the point that I'm making her character is focused on having been splashed in water.



TheWiggian said:


> In the manga.



What page?



TheWiggian said:


> the Yonkou lost so much face



I'm aware that Admiral => Yonkou fans think that way.  However there's a lack of evidence for that.

You're more than welcome to think what you want.  I actually wouldn't have thought that a Yonkou would be able to easily overpower a legendary New World character at barely more than a toddler prior to achieving Haki and a Devil Fruit.  I wouldn't have thought that simply one weapon of a Yonkou would be enough to have Jinbe admitting that protagonists characters have no counter.  I wouldn't have thought a nerfed version of a Yonkou would be unscathed against characters of Luffy's and Jinbe's caliber.  I wouldn't have thought that a Yonkou would be able to brush off Gear 4th effortlessly when Gear 3rd has sent an Admiral flying.

Unproven accusations like being wounded from Nami while also ignoring that it's a technique from a Yonkou are no where near enough to offset the impressiveness of those above feats.  The same with a grab being labeled a full fledged technique.  Yet a character inferior to Chopper has withstood a full fledged technique from a Fleet Admiral.  The same with Jinbe sending a nerfed version of a Yonkou flying especially when that Yonkou didn't even attempt to defend and a battle worn Luffy has done the same to a fully healed Admiral.  Multiple of those points are not only unproven they can even be used against the Admirals more so.



TheWiggian said:


> In a filler maybe.



From The Thriller Bark arc and matching up against PXs.



TheWiggian said:


> Anyway Apo was also one shotted so yes Kizaru can one shot pre ts SN's



Nah Apoo is shown talking in the next panel and obviously gets up as his crew escapes Sabaody.



TheWiggian said:


> he is a troll



Are his lasers dependent on his mood though?



TheWiggian said:


> From what the manga has shown he can easily one shot those calibers



When?



TheWiggian said:


> You also have no evidence that Ace would've performed better but somehow your opinion outweights mine?



Not necessarily.  However Ace's character has briefly clashed equally with Aokiji.  I would think that if Ace's character were fodder compared to Admiral tier characters then Ace's character wouldn't be able to clash equally with Aokiji at all.  Plus Jozu has matched up on par with Aokiji for more than a chapter and in portrayal Jozu doesn't seem leagues superior to Ace's character.



TheWiggian said:


> You can type as much as you want i still see nothing refuting this



Jimbei:  Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength

Jimbei: But even Akainu could not find it in himself... / ...to slaughter the one-time ally who lay helpless before him.



TheWiggian said:


> No evidence for that boy



Chinjao puts up a good match up against Gear 2nd if not Gear 3rd Luffy.  Most Executives are arguably inferior to Base Luffy.



TheWiggian said:


> He was known to negate all effects of Law's DF on his body till post TS.



Where is a distinction made between Vergo specifically negating those Devil Fruit skills and not simply the application of those Devil Fruit skills?  Vergo has superior Haki to Law's character for most of that match up and Law's techniques work on Vergo throughout that whole match up.  Except for slashing techniques.



TheWiggian said:


> Jozu had his opportunity of getting in a blind shot and he failed to do anything remarkable.



Moriah can do more against Crocodile than Jozu with a distraction.  Yet Moriah is not > Jozu.  Crocodile can do more against basically any character than Jozu with a distraction.  Yet Crocodile is not > Jozu.

Neither a response to mine when you come around with excues for the Commanders.



TheWiggian said:


> Dude they got one shotted because they were too weak



You need proof that it's because of that and not because they're significantly battle worn prior to those techniques.



TheWiggian said:


> They had to do a timeskip to grow strong enough for the NW.



How does that disagree with anything that I'm suggesting?



TheWiggian said:


> i legit say he came out unscathed out of the 3 people at MF.



You're more than welcome to say that however that doesn't make is proven.


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## KBD (May 24, 2018)

Ace sure is underrated here. He used to be the second commander of the WB pirates afterall... Yet, you lot would probably be more comfortable with discussing something like Sabo, Luffy and Vista or Jozu vs 2 admirals and with an entirely different tone. Even when Ace was on purpose tanking the finishing blow ment for Luffy, and the roflstomp of a punch's effectiveness was even elaborated on by Sakazuki himself but a moment later. 

But hey, its cool to take things out of context and go all "hahaha Ace got one shotted by Akainu :-D there's no way he could put up a fight with other characters of admiral calibre XD in fact I bet he'd job to Vergo!"

All that said, though, any two Admirals would beat the trio with a high mid to low end of high difficulty.


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## TheWiggian (May 27, 2018)

Gohara said:


> I agree with that.  However I'm asking for proof of a correlation between that and:


So you agree he is inferior with his fruit which his only fighting style revolves around but still asking for proof?



Gohara said:


> And using an example where Ace's character is significantly battle worn with other disadvantages and intentionally takes a technique simply isn't anywhere near enough proof for suggesting that it would be the same in a fair one on one match up and/or a match up in which Akainu is being occupied against other characters.


We have a direct statement that fire can't harm magma. It does not matter if Ace is at 100%, 90%, 80%, 70%, 60%, 50%, 40%, 30%, 20%, 10% because it still doesn't harm him in no way. What other disadvantages did he had?



Gohara said:


> I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at so I'll simplify that with a question: what difficulty in your opinion does God Enel give Luffy in that match up?  Also that example is besides the point.  Magma is superior to fire however it has yet to be said that magma nullifies fire and all of it's useful attributes.


From what i've seen in Enel vs Luffy is that Luffy was not even close to his limit when defeating Enel despite following him all the way up to his ship with a huge golden ball wrapped around his arm and taking a cheap shot in the back. So high diff at best and that's being generous.
But he would've defeated everyone with no rubber immunity up to EL calibre.



Gohara said:


> I'm confused as to why you think that I think that Aokiji can't wound characters superior to Ace's character?


Because you believe he can't hurt a inferior being like Ace.



Gohara said:


> If the Admirals need a significantly battle worn Yonkou Commander of that caliber to intentionally take their techniques and/or to be distracted then how is it suppose to change the arguments of the Yonkou > Admiral fans who argue that top Yonkou Commander tier characters can match up on par with Admirals in fair one on one match ups?


Because the Commander's go down not long after the start of the fight? Got more hype and better portrayal with much better feats on top of that?



Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.  I see that reasoning used to defend Akainu when he gets bested from a significantly nerfed version of a Yonkou and Akainu's is even less disadvantageous than those other examples.


Oh ofc you do. I never defended Akainu in that scenario. WB took him out for a short period of time with the most destructive paramecia that has been introduced in the series. There is no reason to believe someone else would've fared better than Akainu in fact there is no proof someone could do it better.



Gohara said:


> In addition to not getting a fair opportunity to counter Akainu aiming a technique at Luffy his character is also significantly battle worn so in what way is that getting to see the full degree of his character's skills?


I'll just repeat my second response in this post because it's the same whining:


> We have a direct statement that fire can't harm magma. It does not matter if Ace is at 100%, 90%, 80%, 70%, 60%, 50%, 40%, 30%, 20%, 10% because it still doesn't harm him in no way. What other disadvantages did he had?





Gohara said:


> Which has no commentary on your point that it would automatically not work against top tier characters.  If it were about how skilled characters are then Sugar's character wouldn't be able to use those techniques against any characters significantly superior top tier or not.  That is also not how Devil Fruits work.  Plus even if it were it would be irrelevant as we're discussing distracted characters whose Haki isn't automatic.


Okay please provide something how she turned someone above fodder to Yonkou/Admirals into a toy and i will concede here. You won't because there is no evidence for it, just as the is no evidence of Ace faring better against Akainu when the manga clearly dictates his only fighting style and DF power being inferior to Akainu's Magu.



Gohara said:


> Yes except that is based on Fujitora undeniably defending with his sword.  I can prove that Fujitora holds his sword up.  You can't prove that Big Mam's character is using a full fledged technique and there is even significant evidence against it.  We've seen her character do a lot more using a lot less against characters superior to Chopper.  That and it doesn't at all resemble a palm strike in mechanics.  You can't prove that Jinbe blitzes her character and I'm confused as to how it is at all blitzing.  You agree that dirt marks aren't wounds so I'm not sure why you're still using that Nami argument.  Also Nami is using Zeus which negates that entire argument to begin with.  The Brook point is easily the point that you're making with the most evidence and even that is debatable and is irrelevant to begin with because I wouldn't find it strange for Brook to have superior speed to a Yonkou.


Jinbei blitzed Big Mom because when charging his attack he is still far from her and the next we see him in he is having physical contact with Mom. Her and Daifuku's reaction clearly show how powerful Jinbei's attack is and overpowered her off the ship is unrefutable evidence.
Doesn't help her that Chopper blocked a serious palm strike from her without a single scratch. Why do you think i agree? Iam just using your logic that dirt marks resemble damage on characters, like you do in the Fuji vs Luffy example and there is nothing wrong with that. As i said i can live with Fuji being overpowered by G3 Luffy just as i can live with Nami damaging Big Mom, Brook and Jinbei blitzing her and Chopper can take serious hits from her with guard point without a single scratch.



Gohara said:


> Which should explain to you why it's not a full fledged technique.  At barely more than a toddler without Haki and without a Devil Fruit her character easily overpowers a character superior to Chopper.  That technique also doesn't at all resemble a palm strike in mechanics.  All that evidence is against that argument.



So Big Mom became weaker? Because clear manga feats dictate Chopper can take a serious strike from adult Big Mom while the legendary giant couldn't take a single swing from toddler Mom. I guess you don't like how debating like you works.



Gohara said:


> Jinbe splashes that water all around her character's body.  Plus that is not even the point that I'm making her character is focused on having been splashed in water.



Nope she isn't. She even screams for cake again and it still contradicts that DF users can handle sea water up to half submerged by it.
One Piece 890, Page 10



Gohara said:


> What page?


One Piece 890, Page 11.



Gohara said:


> I'm aware that Admiral => Yonkou fans think that way.  However there's a lack of evidence for that.
> 
> You're more than welcome to think what you want.  I actually wouldn't have thought that a Yonkou would be able to easily overpower a legendary New World character at barely more than a toddler prior to achieving Haki and a Devil Fruit.  I wouldn't have thought that simply one weapon of a Yonkou would be enough to have Jinbe admitting that protagonists characters have no counter.  I wouldn't have thought a nerfed version of a Yonkou would be unscathed against characters of Luffy's and Jinbe's caliber.  I wouldn't have thought that a Yonkou would be able to brush off Gear 4th effortlessly when Gear 3rd has sent an Admiral flying.
> 
> Unproven accusations like being wounded from Nami while also ignoring that it's a technique from a Yonkou are no where near enough to offset the impressiveness of those above feats.  The same with a grab being labeled a full fledged technique.  Yet a character inferior to Chopper has withstood a full fledged technique from a Fleet Admiral.  The same with Jinbe sending a nerfed version of a Yonkou flying especially when that Yonkou didn't even attempt to defend and a battle worn Luffy has done the same to a fully healed Admiral.  Multiple of those points are not only unproven they can even be used against the Admirals more so.



These points all been dressed alrdy. Big Mom is still a Yonkou yet we never saw the others doing the same at that age, so what's your point with the toddler shitfiction? Chopper already performed better than this legendary giant you keep hyping up tod Mom with by blocking her adult versions attack. I can write tons of shitfiction aswell like. I never expected one of the 4 strongest pirates having her kingdom destroyed by a couple of weaklings compared to her army, just as i never expected her not being able to defeat 2 of the weakest protagonists with some back up. I never expected 1 of the Yonkou to starve like a retarded happy hippo after chasing weaklings for a few hours. Whats your point here? That she is some kind of god but can't go on for a few hours without some chicken to eat?



Gohara said:


> From The Thriller Bark arc and matching up against PXs.


Those were pad cannons and the lasers from the mouth didn't hit anyone. Doesn't even matter because Kizaru also one shotted Apo with a single kick.



Gohara said:


> Nah Apoo is shown talking in the next panel and obviously gets up as his crew escapes Sabaody.


Laying on the ground completly fucked up whipsering 3 words, anyway it doesn't matter cuz we found out that Kizaru let them all escape because he was busy with Rayleigh.



Gohara said:


> Are his lasers dependent on his mood though?


Nope, but doesn't matter as Apo was one shotted by a single kick, him only being able to whisper a few words.



Gohara said:


> When?


When he kicked Apo as example? His fellow equal Admirals were shown to one shot Commander calibers.



Gohara said:


> Not necessarily.  However Ace's character has briefly clashed equally with Aokiji.  I would think that if Ace's character were fodder compared to Admiral tier characters then Ace's character wouldn't be able to clash equally with Aokiji at all.  Plus Jozu has matched up on par with Aokiji for more than a chapter and in portrayal Jozu doesn't seem leagues superior to Ace's character.


And Mihawk clashed equally with Crocodile and Daz Bones. Shanks clashed equally with WB without the gura.
Jozu actually had the best display, he was the only Commander that hurt an Admiral at MF even if it was just a bloody lip and his strenght was portrayed league above the others. Oh yea and compared to Ace he showed Haki.



Gohara said:


> Jimbei:  Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength
> 
> Jimbei: But even Akainu could not find it in himself... / ...to slaughter the one-time ally who lay helpless before him.


Why don't you post the whole translation and not just the points that complement your arguments?



> J_imbei: The battle raged for ten whole days, and the world waited on tenterhooks for the outcome. // Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength, one man ultimately emerged victorious.
> 
> 6
> Jimbei: The victor was Akainu!! // Sakazuki is the new Fleet Admiral of the Marines...!!!
> ...


Still doesn't contradict what i said and that Akainu ultimately won with extreme diff after such a long equal fight adn both being severly wounded.



Gohara said:


> Chinjao puts up a good match up against Gear 2nd if not Gear 3rd Luffy.  Most Executives are arguably inferior to Base Luffy.


And then he loses to Lao G. without putting up a fight.



Gohara said:


> Where is a distinction made between Vergo specifically negating those Devil Fruit skills and not simply the application of those Devil Fruit skills?  Vergo has superior Haki to Law's character for most of that match up and Law's techniques work on Vergo throughout that whole match up.  Except for slashing techniques.


Point is Vergo's full body CoA and Doflamingos speech for that. Law could't do anything against that up to post TS.



Gohara said:


> Moriah can do more against Crocodile than Jozu with a distraction.  Yet Moriah is not > Jozu.  Crocodile can do more against basically any character than Jozu with a distraction.  Yet Crocodile is not > Jozu.
> 
> Neither a response to mine when you come around with excues for the Commanders.


Stay on topic, it would make sense for me to make excuses for Admirals not Commanders but you seem at the verge of a breakdown here.



Gohara said:


> You need proof that it's because of that and not because they're significantly battle worn prior to those techniques.


Proof is already there if you would read the manga.



Gohara said:


> How does that disagree with anything that I'm suggesting?


You think they can take an Admirals attacks while we have evidence that people like Commanders who are far stronger can get one shotted by Admirals. Enjoy the L.



Gohara said:


> You're more than welcome to say that however that doesn't make is proven.


It is because burden of proof lies on you while the manga clearly shows him unscathed but nice try.
Also learn how to quote properly.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (May 27, 2018)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## nmwn93 (May 27, 2018)

I think we are over estimating the kids and underestimating the admirals. Someone said were forgetting the elemets here. Youre correct... If kuzan really got serious.... He would shatter luffy. (Rubber doesn't like being frozen) he did it with a hug b4 and b4 you say ace or sabo will melt luffy out welll if luffy gets frozen kizaru WILL TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO either shatter that body part thru a light speed kick or with a beam at the affected frozen area. As far as kuzans ice effecting ace and sabo. If he was able to handel akainu's lava for ten days is aces FIRE that akainu burned that much of a factor? I saw the same squabble between ace and kuzan that you did but cmon. For all i know we'll find out kuzan was going easy on ace and luffy for garps sake. I say admirals still SPANK. Medium difficulty at the most

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TheWiggian (May 28, 2018)




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## Gohara (May 29, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> So you agree he is inferior with his fruit which his only fighting style revolves around but still asking for proof?



That's not what I'm asking for proof of.  I am asking for proof of a fully healed version of Ace's character being fodder compared to Akainu.  Which you have provided reason to think that Akainu is superior.  However no proof specifically for being fodder.

I also don't agree with that being his character's only skills.



TheWiggian said:


> We have a direct statement that fire can't harm magma.



Akainu says that magma is superior and can burn fire not that fire has no way of landing techniques against magma.  Plus that does not account for Haki.



TheWiggian said:


> What other disadvantages did he had?



Ace's character does not get an opportunity to come up with a counter because his character has to stand as a shield in an instant.  In a fair one on one match up Ace's character would obviously see what techniques Akainu is going to use and can attempt more of a counter.



TheWiggian said:


> So high diff at



So how is that not a great match up?



TheWiggian said:


> Because you believe he can't hurt a inferior being like Ace.



I don't think that and I'm not sure why you think that I think that.



TheWiggian said:


> Because the Commander's go down not long after the start of the fight?



What does it matter if the examples being used aren't valid?  We're not discussing what difficulty distracted top Yonkou Commander tiers can give Admirals who are allowed to use techniques preemptively.  In all fair one on one confrontations between top Yonkou Commander tier characters and Admirals they have basically all been even and in some cases arguably in favor of those top Yonkou Commander tier characters.  There's no reason why Admirals besting top Yonkou Commander tier characters in advantageous situations would change the minds of Yonkou > Admiral fans.



TheWiggian said:


> Got more hype and better portrayal with much better feats on top of that?



How so?



TheWiggian said:


> I never defended Akainu in that scenario.



Many Admiral => Yonkou fans do however.



TheWiggian said:


> Okay please provide something how she turned someone above fodder to Yonkou/Admirals into a toy



I don't need to prove that Sugar's character can turn every category of a character into a toy without there being reason to doubt it.  Fans can argue that there's no proof that Sugar's character can turn a dinosaur into a toy and technically we have yet to see her character do that.  We know that her character has abilities that allow her to turn other characters into a toy no where has it said that it somehow doesn't work against specific characters.  Plus the argument that you're making is that because top tier characters are significantly superior it likely wouldn't work.  Yet we've seen her character use those skills against characters significantly superior.  Those characters don't have to be top tier because if there were some type of barrier that somehow makes significantly superior characters unable to be turned into toys then no character that is significantly superior would be turned into a toy.

Also using that reasoning I can ask what proof there is that Aokiji can successfully freeze characters superior to Jozu?  Therefore Aokiji can't freeze Marco for example.  There's no proof that Kizaru can incapacitate Pre Time Skip Supernova tier characters with his lasers because we have yet to see him do so.  Yet you obviously don't agree with that argument.



TheWiggian said:


> Jinbei blitzed



Unless her character was simply halted from being sprayed in salt water?



TheWiggian said:


> and overpowered



For a character to overpower another character the defending character would have to be attempting to defend.  If they're simply standing there and they get pushed back they're not overpowering.  Like how Marco doesn't overpower Aokiji.  Unless you agree that Marco overpowers Aokiji when he sends him flying?



TheWiggian said:


> Doesn't help her that Chopper blocked a serious palm strike from her without a single scratch.



Again there is no reason to think that it's a palm strike and there is reason to think that it isn't.  There is also proof that using less than that a far inferior version of her character can overpower a character significantly superior to Chopper.



TheWiggian said:


> Iam just using your logic that dirt marks



Where is that in my arguments?



TheWiggian said:


> Because clear manga feats dictate Chopper can take a serious strike from adult Big Mom while the legendary giant couldn't take a single swing from toddler Mom.



The mechanics of a palm strike disagree with that argument.  Even if that weren't the case it's a lot more clear that Chopper isn't yet in the same league of a tier of characters that would be legendary on the most powerful island in the series.



TheWiggian said:


> he even screams for cake again



Jinbe starts travelling to use that technique before that and there is only one panel between that and when that technique lands.



TheWiggian said:


> and it still contradicts that DF users can handle sea water up to half submerged by it.



Again that is not the point and even if it were the water is splashed all around her character.



TheWiggian said:


> One Piece 890, Page 10
> 
> One Piece 890, Page 11.



Her character is not doing anything in those panels so how is her character visibly attempting to defend against that technique?  



TheWiggian said:


> Chopper already performed better than this legendary giant you keep hyping up tod Mom with by blocking her adult versions attack.



There are multiple interpretations to that "palm strike".  There is that it is a palm strike and there is that it is not a palm strike.  The interpretation that it is not a palm strike is backed with how palm strikes are performed and the idea that Chopper is not yet in the same league of a tier of characters who are legendary on the most powerful island in the series.  The interpretation that it is a palm strike is being argued on the basis that her character has veins and is angry.  Yet those descriptions are not exclusive to going all out.



TheWiggian said:


> just as i never expected her not being able to defeat 2 of the weakest protagonists with some back up.



So the argument is that the protagonists characters did a good job running away?  Doesn't seem like much of a shot at the Yonkou when discussing skills.  That's also something that the protagonists characters have been doing consistently throughout the series.  Kizaru doesn't capture any Supernovas characters.



TheWiggian said:


> Those were pad cannons



I'm referring to Zoro's character being significantly battle worn.  I'm not sure what you're referring to.



TheWiggian said:


> Laying on the ground completly fucked up whipsering 3 words



Then afterwards simply got up and escaped and obviously doesn't withstand any significant wounds.



TheWiggian said:


> Kizaru let them all escape because he was busy with Rayleigh.



So why wouldn't Kizaru capture the incapacitated Apoo after a brief clash against Rayleigh if Apoo didn't simply get up and escape almost immediately afterwards?



TheWiggian said:


> His fellow equal Admirals were shown to one shot Commander calibers.



Not all Admirals are proven to have the same degree of offense and again there's good reason to think otherwise.



TheWiggian said:


> And Mihawk clashed equally with Crocodile



However top Yonkou Commander tier characters have done that against Admirals consistently.  Not in simply one clash.



TheWiggian said:


> Still doesn't contradict what i said and that Akainu ultimately won with extreme diff after such a long equal fight adn both being severly wounded.



It contradicts an argument that Akainu is as wounded as Aokiji and has no energy at that point in that match up.  That translation suggests that Akainu is still standing with enough energy to conclusively best Aokiji.



TheWiggian said:


> And then he loses to Lao G. without putting up a fight.



Not only is that point disagreeable on the basis that it's a battle worn Chinjao I also don't see how that disagrees with any of the arguments that I'm making?



TheWiggian said:


> Point is Vergo's full body CoA



Which doesn't make the distinction that I'm asking for.



TheWiggian said:


> Stay on topic



It's on topic because it specifically shows how using that reasoning doesn't validate the claim that you're making.



TheWiggian said:


> It is because burden of proof lies on you while the manga clearly shows him unscathed but nice try.



It shows that his face is unscathed which is not where Marco lands a technique.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Phantom Thief (May 30, 2018)

The Admirals take this with high-difficulty, if that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 3, 2018)

Gohara said:


> That's not what I'm asking for proof of.  I am asking for proof of a fully healed version of Ace's character being fodder compared to Akainu.  Which you have provided reason to think that Akainu is superior.  However no proof specifically for being fodder.
> 
> I also don't agree with that being his character's only skills.
> 
> ...



I'll respond after my vacation.


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## DaJinx (Jun 11, 2018)

Ace and Sabo can both wreck Aokiji. As far as Kizaru, Luffy has to master Shave, which wouldn't take a lot of training, explaining how he did it out of the blue and killed the Pigeon Leopard Guy (Forgot his name).


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