# Itachi vs. Sandaime Raikage



## Rocky (Feb 18, 2013)

Location: Naruto vs. Sandaime
Distance: 20m
Knowledge: Full
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Amaterasu


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## Nikushimi (Feb 18, 2013)

Itachi still wins with either Tsukuyomi or the Totsuka no Tsurugi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi still wins with either Tsukuyomi or the Totsuka no Tsurugi.


Can Itachi even pin the Third Raikage down long enough for Tsukuyomi (even A had to be pinned down by five Susano'o so he could be genjutsued). And Totsuka? Really against the guy with the best on screen tanking feat?


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## Rocky (Feb 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi still wins with either Tsukuyomi



With full knowledge, Itachi actually has work to catch Sandaime, and that means getting close against Sandaime & his Nukite.



> or the Totsuka no Tsurugi.



Only Sandaime's own 1-Finger Nukite can pierce his defenses.


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## ueharakk (Feb 18, 2013)

Sandaime probably wins.

The only option itachi has is either Tsukuyomi.  Even if he gets sandaime with paralysis genjutsu, its likely that he can still use his raiton shield, or just muscle out of it considering orochimaru was granted limited motion.

With his RoY up and amaterasu restricted, itachi has no means of really inflicting meaningful damage on him while his shield is activated.  Ei's karate chop has far greater piercing feats than totsuka, and Sandaime's hellstab even in its 4 fingered form is hyped to be stronger.

So it comes down to if Itachi can land tsukuyomi on the guy, and considering the requirements to land EMS genjutsu on Ei (5 susanoos plus tsunade distraction) and full knowledge, I don't see Itachi having good chances of doing so.

Include that fact that while any MS user is alive, they experience not only massive chakra drain, but also bodily pain and fatigue which affects their movements, Sandaime potentially plows through susanoo and the user with a hell-stab before Itachi starts running low on stamina.


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## Magician (Feb 18, 2013)

Since when do you have to _tank_ Totsuka? Isn't it a spirit weapon?


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## Rocky (Feb 18, 2013)

BDProductions34 said:


> Since when do you have to _tank_ Totsuka? Isn't it a spirit weapon?



No, it's physical. Otherwise it couldn't _cut_ the Hydra heads.

And that's it's best cutting feat actually, which isn't above what Sandaime Raikage can take.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Feb 18, 2013)

Itachi has more than 1 tools to defeat him and with his brain he should be able to land them.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2013)

Rocky said:


> With full knowledge, Itachi actually has work to catch Sandaime, and that means getting close against Sandaime & his Nukite.
> 
> 
> Has to work to catch him? There is no catching him, he's stabbing u. He can go through all defenses.
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 18, 2013)

Itachi wins with low difficulty.

Sandaime can't really touch Itachi, with Itachi's reflexes and Susano'o. 
Itachi can genjutsu GG him, or just go merciless mode and 2 panel with stage 4 Susano'o.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi wins with low difficulty.
> 
> Sandaime can't really touch Itachi, with Itachi's reflexes and Susano'o.
> Itachi can genjutsu GG him, or just go merciless mode and 2 panel with stage 4 Susano'o.


Highly doubtful considering he dodged chakra arm launched FRS twice, and Itachi is sick. All of his Susano attacks miss. Who the fuck do you think this is- Nagato? 

With amy restricted the shield can lay back feet up beer in hand tanking his attacks should he choose to watch ESPN instead of dodge. 

With full knowledge he casually outlasts Itachi's chakra pool and finishes him with Nukite or BL once he collapses.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Can Itachi even pin the Third Raikage down long enough for Tsukuyomi (even A had to be pinned down by five Susano'o so he could be genjutsued).



He may not need to pin the Raikage down at all. It's not like we have any information suggesting that the Raikage is used to fighting while avoiding eye contact.

Though if Itachi really needs to, yeah, I could see him catching the Raikage with a Susano'o hand and then going for the Tsukuyomi takedown. It wouldn't be easy and it would probably require some kind of diversionary attack first, but Itachi of all people shouldn't be incapable of pulling that off. He's displayed greater skill and insight than the Raikage, so I would expect him to be the one controlling the way the battle plays out- at least enough to earn the benefit of the doubt here.



> And Totsuka? Really against the guy with the best on screen tanking feat?



Well admittedly we don't have feats to suggest whether the Totsuka would work one way or the other, but given the physical power of Susano'o and the apparent sharpness of the sword (displayed when it produced a clean cut through Kabuto's Sawarabi no Mai), I would say it's at least plausible.



Rocky said:


> With full knowledge, Itachi actually has work to catch Sandaime, and that means getting close against Sandaime & his Nukite.



With Susano'o, I don't really see how that's a problem; he can safely approach the Raikage with the Jutsu active and then hit him with Tsukuyomi or the Totsuka while he's trying to bore through with his Nukite.



> Only Sandaime's own 1-Finger Nukite can pierce his defenses.



That is literally its only piercing feat (besides cutting off the Hachibi's tentacles), so I don't see how you reached that conclusion. Obviously it's a very penetrative attack, but saying it's the only thing capable of damaging the Raikage is not supported by anything we have been shown.

I'd wager there are other attacks/weapons that can damage the 3rd- the Totsuka no Tsurugi being one of them, as it cut through a dense field of Kabuto's Senjutsu-powered Shikkotsumyaku without any apparent resistance.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2013)

> Though if Itachi really needs to, yeah, I could see him catching the Raikage with a Susano'o hand and then going for the Tsukuyomi takedown. It wouldn't be easy and it would probably require some kind of diversionary attack first, but Itachi of all people shouldn't be incapable of pulling that off.


The shield closes his eyes and goes to sleep in Susano's arms. 

Maybe Itachi can read him a bed time story while his ocular Genjutsu fails to do anything.

What you fail to understand is unlike A his pop has no reason to fear death here, Itachi doesn't have a Rinnegan that absorbs cloaked chakra or Mokuton that can put him to sleep. He also doesn't have anyone else to protect. A needed to keep his eyes open because he was in mortal danger. His father is not.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 18, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> The shield closes his eyes and goes to sleep in Susano's arms.
> 
> Maybe Itachi can read him a bed time story while his ocular Genjutsu fails to do anything.
> 
> What you fail to understand is unlike A his pop has no reason to fear death here, Itachi doesn't have a Rinnegan that absorbs cloaked chakra or Mokuton that can put him to sleep. He also doesn't have anyone else to protect. A needed to keep his eyes open because he was in mortal danger. His father is not.



That's all well and good if the Raikage has time to process the situation and react accordingly, but the key to Itachi's victory here is not allowing him the chance to do that.

He's gotta strike hard and fast and try to take the Raikage by surprise. It's not easy, but it's doable.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2013)

> That's all well and good if the Raikage has time to process the situation and react accordingly, but the key to Itachi's victory here is not allowing him the chance to do that.


The key doesn't fit in this door way. Not only will Sick Itachi fail to physically come within 5m of touching him all fight, but the Raikage is hardly stupid enough to keep his eyes open with full knowledge the only way he can lose is through ocular connection. He always came off to me as a kage on par with his peers mentally, he is not a stupid individual.



> He's gotta strike hard and fast and try to take the Raikage by surprise. It's not easy, but it's doable.


It's not, at all. Just because this is Itachi doesn't mean he can still defeat someone he literally has no chance of defeating. 

-snip-


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## Rocky (Feb 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> With Susano'o, I don't really see how that's a problem; he can safely approach the Raikage with the Jutsu active and then hit him with Tsukuyomi or the Totsuka while he's trying to bore through with his Nukite.



Sandiame isn't going to look into Itachi eyes, that would be stupid.

And Susano'o isn't physically more powerful than the Hachibi, who Sandaime was apparently able to wrestle with. The Raikage is faster than Itachi, so Itachi isn't casually running him down and grabbing.



> That is literally its only piercing feat (besides cutting off the Hachibi's tentacles), so I don't see how you reached that conclusion. Obviously it's a very penetrative attack, but saying it's the only thing capable of damaging the Raikage is not supported by anything we have been shown.
> 
> I'd wager there are other attacks/weapons that can damage the 3rd- the Totsuka no Tsurugi being one of them, as it cut through a dense field of Kabuto's Senjutsu-powered Shikkotsumyaku without any apparent resistance.



This is ludicrous. Cutting Bones does in no way equate to cutting the man that shrugged of Rasenshuriken, an attack that shreds it's opponents to bits.

His less durable son can have concentrated lighting, shaped specifically to pierce, shoved into his chest....and it only causes a paper-cut like wound.

Sandaime's Nukite is called the "strongest spear", while his body was "the strongest shield". Kishi didn't write those things for his health. You're using dismissive wording to take away from that.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 18, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> The key doesn't fit in this door way. Not only will Sick Itachi fail to physically come within 5m of touching him all fight, but the Raikage is hardly stupid enough to keep his eyes open with full knowledge the only way he can lose is through ocular connection. He always came off to me as a kage on par with his peers mentally, he is not a stupid individual.



While that is true, Itachi is more than "on par with" the Raikage's peers when it comes to intellect.

It wouldn't take much more than a wayward dust cloud at an opportune moment for him to capitalize, either, and his greater versatility with Ninjutsu makes him more apt to exploit a situation like that.



> It's not, at all. Just because this is Itachi doesn't mean he can still defeat someone he literally has no chance of defeating.



Itachi is more likely to beat the Raikage than not... Whether or not the Totsuka no Tsurugi can penetrate him is still up in the air, but all Itachi really needs to win is a moment's eye-contact, and the Raikage can't very well fight with his eyes closed.



> I'm sorry, the fanboying stops here. He gets fucking destroyed by the Spear.



The Raikage's Nukite is only going to put him in a position where Itachi can grab him with Susano'o. And, again, since the Raikage can't really hope to hit Itachi without looking at him, there's a very good chance he'll just get caught in Tsukuyomi first.


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## Doge (Feb 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's all well and good if the Raikage has time to process the situation and react accordingly, but the key to Itachi's victory here is not allowing him the chance to do that.
> 
> He's gotta strike hard and fast and try to take the Raikage by surprise. It's not easy, but it's doable.



Susanoo is not the speed demon that is necessary to put down the Raikage.  Once he goes into Susanoo, Itachi just forfeited any chance of sneaking up on the Raikage or preventing an attack towards the backside of Susanoo.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 18, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sandiame isn't going to look into Itachi eyes, that would be stupid.



It's not always a choice. Unless the Raikage intends to keep his eyes closed for the entire duration of the encounter, he's going to be vulnerable at some point. It then falls on Itachi to find (or make) a window and exploit it, which is not that demanding of a task since all the Raikage can do literally is just run around stabbing shit with his fingers.



> And Susano'o isn't physically more powerful than the Hachibi, who Sandaime was apparently able to wrestle with.



The issue is not how strong Susano'o is relative to Sandaime, but how much of that strength goes into its attacks with the Totsuka no Tsurugi. Sandaime was strong enough to pierce himself with the right weapon; provided the Totsuka is sharp enough, Susano'o is surely strong enough to be just as effective.



> The Raikage is faster than Itachi, so Itachi isn't casually running him down and grabbing.



Susano'o is also faster than Itachi... Not saying that catching the Raikage would be easy, but it would be doable. Particularly as melee attacks are really the Raikage's only option.



> This is ludicrous. Cutting Bones does in no way equate to cutting the man that shrugged of Rasenshuriken, an attack that shreds it's opponents to bits.



Those bones are harder than steel...even without being augmented by natural energy.



> His less durable son can have concentrated lighting, shaped specifically to pierce, shoved into his chest....and it only causes a paper-cut like wound.



So what?

All we really know is that the Raikage is really durable and the Totsuka no Tsurugi is really good for cutting. The main difference is that we have cap feats for the Raikage's durability while we do not have any for the Totsuka no Tsurugi's cutting power.



> Sandaime's Nukite is called the "strongest spear", while his body was "the strongest shield". Kishi didn't write those things for his health. You're using dismissive wording to take away from that.



That's...just flowery hype. It doesn't take much more than a cursory glance to realize that the Raikage would be smeared out of existence along with his "strongest spear" by something like a Perfect Susano'o slash or the Kyuubi's full power Bijuudama.

Acknowledging that he's really durable and has a really sharp attack is one thing, but let's not kid ourselves here.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 18, 2013)

kresh said:


> Susanoo is not the speed demon that is necessary to put down the Raikage.  Once he goes into Susanoo, Itachi just forfeited any chance of sneaking up on the Raikage or preventing an attack towards the backside of Susanoo.



If Itachi wants to sneak up on the Raikage, then of course he would not activate Susano'o until the right moment. But if the Raikage is coming at Itachi, it will be necessary to fend him off, so it's not really a choice.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 18, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Highly doubtful considering he dodged chakra arm launched FRS twice, and Itachi is sick. All of his Susano attacks miss. Who the fuck do you think this is- Nagato?



Itachi being sick has no effect on his accuracy.
Magatama is as fast as FRS and it is more spammable and Itachi can throw 4 @ once. 
Raikage isn't dodging everything. Lol.





> With amy restricted the shield can lay back feet up beer in hand tanking his attacks should he choose to watch ESPN instead of dodge.


Just because he dodged Naruto twice doesn't mean he can dodge everything. Itachi's skillset is more versatile, he gets Raikage with his 2nd or 3rd attack whether it is magatama or Totsuka.



> With full knowledge he casually outlasts Itachi's chakra pool and finishes him with Nukite or BL once he collapses.



That'd be a cool story if we didn't see him get soloed by a kagebunshin. 

I absoltely have no idea where you came up with all that bs.


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 18, 2013)

Totsuka blade is an ethereal weapon, and it's actually made from liquid. From that jug, and it takes the form of a blade. It's not physical, it's spiritual.

OT: I think Sandaime will ultimately win.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi being sick has no effect on his accuracy.
> Magatama is as fast as FRS and it is more spammable and Itachi can throw 4 @ once.
> Raikage isn't dodging everything. Lol.
> 
> ...


[/quote]

He didn't even see it coming till it was feet away. Yet he still dodged it.
And again from his back, he dodged it like child's play.
Just swinging his arm causes people to go flying.
He apparently even tanked a bijuudama. 
Naruto had doubts he could dodge in RM.

Basically too fast, too durable, too strong, and too boss. Itachi has nothing to hurt him, nor to block him.


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## Thunder (Feb 18, 2013)

Disclaimer: I don't know who wins this, and I don't care. But I feel the need to point out that some of the pro Sandaime arguments start to fall apart under scrutiny. 

*
Tsukuyomi vs. Sandaime*

Not sure why people are disregarding Tsukuyomi and other visual genjutsu here. Just because a character possesses full knowledge on a jutsu doesn't necessarily mean said jutsu becomes useless. 

The fact of the matter is, we have little reason to believe that someone like the Sandaime _can_ fight effectively without his eyes; his linear fighting style is too reliant on them. If you're going to fight without looking at your opponent, you need to possess _some_ method of compensating for your lack of vision like these characters do:


 Gai has trained himself to look at the feet.
Zabuza relies on his sense of hearing.
Hiruzen has an a good nose.
Tsunade can monitor heartbeats.
There are other ways to get around a lack of sight, but those are just some examples. And of course, none of these methods are going to be 100% accurate.

*
Totsuka vs. Sandaime*

As for the Totsuka: _no one_ knows exactly what the limitations of this sword are, so who are you to say what it can or can't pierce based on the lack of info we have? It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the Sandaime can _avoid_ the blade, but it's anyone's guess what happens if it does hit him. All we know for sure is that the Totsuka hasn't failed to run through anything yet (possibly due to its spiritual nature), and the Sandaime is absurdly durable. 

We've reached an impasse.


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## Rocky (Feb 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It's not always a choice. Unless the Raikage intends to keep his eyes closed for the entire duration of the encounter, he's going to be vulnerable at some point. It then falls on Itachi to find (or make) a window and exploit it, which is not that demanding of a task since all the Raikage can do literally is just run around stabbing shit with his fingers.



Listen, Genjutsu is not passive. We saw that Madara needed a distraction to ensnare Ei and capture him in a Genjutsu. It's difficult to hold eye contact with someone who utilizes speed as a major point in his combat style. Coincidentally, Sasuke's only full on-battles that Genjutsu was not a part of were against Ei & Kabuto. 

Sandaime with knowledge will attempt to avoid eye contact with Itachi at all costs, and that doesn't mean he needs to fight keeping his eyes closed. The lighting running through his reflexes making him abnormally fast & reflexive would significantly decrease Itachi's chances.

And Itachi, with his 2.5 in stamina, isn't going to chill in final Susano'o forever until it happens either.




> The issue is not how strong Susano'o is relative to Sandaime, but how much of that strength goes into its attacks with the Totsuka no Tsurugi. Sandaime was strong enough to pierce himself with the right weapon; provided the Totsuka is sharp enough, Susano'o is surely strong enough to be just as effective.



Raikage fell on his Nukite and it put a hole through his chest. It wasn't a matter of strength. 

I'm not questioning the strength of Susano'o, just why you believe the Totsuka sword could tear a body that was left intact after a point blank hit from a Kyuubi-powered, Super-Effective, Cellular level disk that literally shred's it's opponents to pieces.



> Susano'o is also faster than Itachi... Not saying that catching the Raikage would be easy, but it would be doable. Particularly as melee attacks are really the Raikage's only option.



Susano'o is faster than Itachi?



> Those bones are harder than steel...even without being augmented by natural energy.



Harder than steel.... In all honestly that's cute at this point. I would hope that a spiritual war god swinging it's giant sword could at least penetrate steel.

Being able to pierce Kimimaro and being able to pierce the Raikage are different, and I would hope you could realize that.



> So what?
> 
> All we really know is that the Raikage is really durable and the Totsuka no Tsurugi is really good for cutting. The main difference is that we have cap feats for the Raikage's durability while we do not have any for the Totsuka no Tsurugi's cutting power.



The cap feat argument.....don't venture into the land of the No-Limits Fallacy my friend. Nukite has no cap feats, yet you don't see me saying the Riaikage runs down Itachi and shoves the Nukite through Susano'o, who caps at Kirin.

Sasuke's Kusanagi can apparently cut diamond, & when he enhances his blade further with lighting, it bounces off Sandaime's less durable son. Yes Totsuka is really good at cutting...because it's a goddamn giant sword. That doesn't translate into slicing through the Raikage. 



> That's...just flowery hype. It doesn't take much more than a cursory glance to realize that the Raikage would be smeared out of existence along with his "strongest spear" by something like a Perfect Susano'o slash or the Kyuubi's full power Bijuudama.
> 
> Acknowledging that he's really durable and has a really sharp attack is one thing, but let's not kid ourselves here.



I didn't bring those statements up to make a case for the Raikage shrugging off attacks that eradicate mountains, Nikushimi.

I was only backing up my claims in that Itachi is not waltzing up and solo'ing the Raikage with a sword that he can only use for 5 minutes.


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## Mibu Clan (Feb 18, 2013)

Itachi wins with high difficulty, resorting to the Susanoo. However, people should realize that Itachi is a blitzer too, and not ontly has the speed but the eyes to avoid the Raikages movement, as he has demonstrated fully in his time.

Susanos Totsuka is both physical, spiritual and sealing Jutsu, his sword will pierce thE Sandaimes defence and the shield will protect from it. 

Besides the fact that the Susano Spirit itself is strong enough to protect him without its weapons, although not sure if he could win without them.


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## Dr. White (Feb 18, 2013)

Itachi takes this Mid High Diff.

Naruto was able to keep up with him in SM speed, and sage sensing, Itachi's speed is near equal and he has sharingan pre-cog making his odds of fighting with him probable: need be susano blocks any life threatning hits(unless you think he is putting out more DC than Kirin) Tsukyomi only requires a half second, and with partial hand Susano from up close he could grab him similar to the way Madara did Ei, or how Itachi grabbed Bee/Naruto from Nagato. IF it comes down to it Itachi sets up a genjutsu/and or genjutsu trap in order to land Totsuka. 

Their seems to be this misconception that Totsuka sword was used to cut the Hydra heads, when it wasn't. Sasuke was able to use the same sword of susano'o that Itachi did vs Kabuto. It seems all susano have swords, the totsuka sword specifically seals, and was used against Oro not the previous heads. Sandaime can't break Yata mirror, and can't resist Totsuka.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 18, 2013)

I think Itachi would win with Tsukiyomi.

Even with full knowledge, Itachi will be able to trap him with either eye contact or a finger or crow genjutsu. 

He could also genjutsu him _while in the middle_ of attacking with something else like he genjutsu'd Killer Bee while falling back from his katon.

He could also pop a crow clone as a diversion and then genjutsu him while they're all flocking around(what he did vs Sasuke).

Once Itachi traps him in any of his rudimentary genjutsu, he can just layer his special Tsukiyomi over it for a KO.


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## crisler (Feb 18, 2013)

People like A or 3rd raikage is no match for fast, detrimental, smart fighters like Itachi who specializes in genjutsu and has a good, guaranteed defence.


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## joshhookway (Feb 18, 2013)

Raikage can run circles around Susanoo until Itachi dies from overuse.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 18, 2013)

Brown Dick said:


> Ha Itachi wins. Genjutsu is all thats needed. They should be around the same level of speed.


Unless Itachi can pin the Third Raikage down, he can't put a genjutsu on him at all. And when has Itachi genjutsued a Kage-Level opponent without a distraction or the Kagel-Level opponent knew of Itachi's strengths? 

And no, Itachi doesn't have the feats. Oh what can Itachi even do to HURT the Third Raikage without Amaterasu too?



crisler said:


> People like A or 3rd raikage is no match for fast, detrimental, smart fighters like Itachi who specializes in genjutsu and has a good, guaranteed defence.


It took _FIVE SUSANO'O'S_ as well as A being distracted by Tsunade for _Madara_ of all people to land a genjutsu on him. Sandaime Raikage is even stronger than him.

What can Itachi even DO to him besides genjutsu?


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## Pink Matter (Feb 18, 2013)

The only way I see Itachi winning is through genjutsu or running Sandaime through with the Totsuka. Sandaime outclasses him in everything other category. The question is, will Itachi be able to tag Sandaime with the Totsuka or hit him with Tsukyomi?


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## Bonly (Feb 19, 2013)

This is a close match up.

Itachi doesn't have many things in his arsenal that could hurt the Sandaime Raikage due to his great durability as well as the Sandaime Raikage's speed which allows him do dodge most(if not all) of Itachi's Katons+Suitons. Itachi would have to rely on Genjutsu and Susanoo to do the trick.

With full knowledge the Sandaime Raikage won't go to look into Itachi's eyes which could prevent him from being caught in a genjutsu although as far as we know the Sandaime Raikage hasn't shown to have a good sense of hearing or smell or a method of fighting a Sharingan user by looking at his feet. This means he'll look towards during the fight which might lead him into a genjutsu via sharingan or fingers. Itachi can quickly summon crows(1) if the Sandaime Raikage gets close and as we have seen a crow can also wield a Sharingan which allows for more uses of genjutsu. We have also seen Itachi make Karasu Bunshin which cost then a . As we have seen Itachi can make clones incredibly fast which can also help in the heat of battle since Itachi's Kage Bunshin can explode which can give Itachi some space as well as block the Sandaime Raikage's LoS. If Itachi can make a Karasu Bunshin as fast as he could make a Kage Bunshin and a crow or two had a sharingan in it, then that could also help in catching the Sandaime Raikage in a genjutsu. Although with his speed, the Sandaime could likely dodge most(if not all) of these attempts at the last second or two.

The Sandaime Raikage's speed is comparable to A but to what we have seen, his speed is comparable to A in V1, before he maxes out his chakra to go full speed. Sasuke was able to react to A in V1 thanks to A's linear attack as well as Sharingan pre-cog. The Sandaime Raikage who is around A's V1 speed and Itachi being equal(if not faster) then Sasuke along with the Sandaime Raikage's linear attacks+ Itachi's pre-cog should result in Itachi reacting to all of the Sandaime's attacks. Itachi as well have Susanoo to help which the higher levels should protect him from most of the Sandaime's attacks.

Overall it becomes a battle of attrition. Can Itachi's hold up Susanoo and get the Sandaime in a genjutsu or hit him with the Totsuka no Tsurugi and seal him or will the Sandaime dodge/tank most/everything that is thrown at him and pull out a win? Im feeling 50/50 here.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2013)

> While that is true, Itachi is more than "on par with" the Raikage's peers when it comes to intellect.


Hardly, Itachi has shown nothing that would give him a significant edge against this Raikage. People overrate intelligence when put against someone they literally have nothing in their arsenal to defeat them with. 



> It wouldn't take much more than a wayward dust cloud at an opportune moment for him to capitalize, either, and his greater versatility with Ninjutsu makes him more apt to exploit a situation like that.


Dust cloud? Is his katon creating a dust cloud? Why didn't Madara create dust clouds to capture the Raikage with his eyes open? 

You make really no sense and you've averted to using dust clouds as diversions for a possible ocular connection which only results in the 3rd closing his eyes or looking away via shunshin immediately. 



> Itachi is more likely to beat the Raikage than not... Whether or not the Totsuka no Tsurugi can penetrate him is still up in the air, but all Itachi really needs to win is a moment's eye-contact, and the Raikage can't very well fight with his eyes closed.


No he's not, at all. In reality the Raikage can probably pierce Itachi's sub-formed Susanos rather casually with his 3 fingered Nukite. 



> The Raikage's Nukite is only going to put him in a position where Itachi can grab him with Susano'o. And, again, since the Raikage can't really hope to hit Itachi without looking at him, there's a very good chance he'll just get caught in Tsukuyomi first.


No it's not, and that only results in an obliterated Susano arm via Nukite. Are you honestly suggesting he doesn't have the capacity to react to Susano's arms if he cut every tail of Gyuki?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 19, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> The only way I see Itachi winning is through genjutsu or running Sandaime through with the Totsuka. Sandaime outclasses him in everything other category. The question is, will Itachi be able to tag Sandaime with the Totsuka or hit him with Tsukyomi?


Totsuka is unlikely, if at all, hurt him. He has the best tanking feat in the manga aside from Naruto's, the Jyubi's, and Bee's in how a Kurama-chakra Rasenshuriken didn't even put him down.


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2013)

We've seen Yondaime Raikage be a bitch to put in Genjutsu due to his speed; even Madara with 5 pairs of eyes had to stop his movements before Genjutsu was possible. However from what we have seen Yondaime Raikage seems to be faster than Sandaime, so it's unclear if Sandaime possess enough speed where Itachi (whose fast in his own right) would have as much trouble placing him in Genjutsu as Madara did with Yondaime. One thing working in Sandaime's favor here is he has full knowledge of Itachi's Genjutsu, but that doesn't guarantee he'll be able to evade it throughout the entire match especially with how clever Itachi is & Itachi's bushin fient capabilities.

Also we saw Sasuke reacted at the last second to R1 Yondaime Raikage's attack. We don't know how Sandaime stacks up to R1 Yondaime in speed, but even if Sandaime is a bit faster than R1 Yondaime, Itachi is a bit faster than Sasuke. So there is a good chance that Itachi could use the same strategy that Naruto did to take Sandaime Raikage, just replace Rasengan with Susano'o attack. The only issue in a normal match would be whether or not Itachi could figure out this method w/o Hachibi providing him intel (for the record I think Kishi would write the battle where Itachi eventually figured it out), however here Itachi has full knowledge on Sandaime so he'll be able to figure out this method for sure. 

So unless Sandaime Raikage is suppose to be seen as equally fast as Yondaime Raikage, which I find unlikely, Itachi has 2 ways to take him down even w/o Amaterasu.

On the flip side of this. Amber Sealing Pot is always a major danger, but due to Itachi having full knowledge it's pretty much a non issue in this match. Sandaime Raikage has superior stamina so he could outlast Itachi in an endurance contest, but most likely Itachi will take him down with one of the above methods before it comes to that. 

This pretty much means breaking through Susano'o is Sandaime Raikage's only chance. So essentially we have several elements clashing we don't know the limits off. We don't know the limits of Hell Bringer's offense except that it's greater than FRS & we don't know the limits of Stage 4 Susano'o's defense or the limits of Yata Mirror's defense. So it's really impossible to tell if Hell Bringer could pierce through Susano'o or not. But even if we were to assume it can, Itachi could still potentially evade Hell Bringer. So odds are not good for Hell Bringer landing on Itachi.

Sandaime Raikage's only options beyond that is Black Lightning, which we really do not know anything about. Also the dude had very little panel time to show off his capabilities. So there is always a chance he'd have something to pull out a win, but on the flip side of this Itachi has greater hype and portrayal, so if I'm going to give anyone the benefit of the doubt on being able to pull out some new skill that is effective in this match, it would be Itachi.

So, I'd bet on Itachi's victory in this match.


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

This is not a good match up for the 3rd Raikage, taking factors such as Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and especially Susanoo into account. 

I'm going with Itachi high difficulty. Tsukuyomi traps the target within an illusion completely under the user's control. it's much different from an actual attack, but since the Raikage should be somewhat resilient to pain, he might not be taken out (it should still affect him though). We don't know if he's fast enough to dodge Amaterasu, dodging it straight out like A did against Sasuke is much different from using it in a multi-step plan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> This is not a good match up for the 3rd Raikage, taking factors such as Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and especially Susanoo into account.
> 
> I'm going with Itachi high difficulty. Tsukuyomi traps the target within an illusion completely under the user's control. it's much different from an actual attack, but since the Raikage should be somewhat resilient to pain, he might not be taken out (it should still affect him though). We don't know if he's fast enough to dodge Amaterasu, dodging it straight out like A did against Sasuke is much different from using it in a multi-step plan.



Raikage is resilient to pain in the physical realm. He doesn't have any durability in Tsukiyomi.


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage is resilient to pain in the physical realm. He doesn't have any durability in Tsukiyomi.




Tsukuyomi cannot be dealt with easily, "Tsukuyomi" can only be broken by a Sharingan user that shares the same blood as the caster. Tsukoyomi is a higher level form of genjutsu due to its near-instant effect and the ability to render victims unconscious and paralyzed altogether. Average genjutsu's can also be broken if you stop the flow of chakra in your body and apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra as seen when "Sasuke" used a powerful Genjutsu on Killer bee but did not take effect due to "Gyuki" intercepting. Though In a way, Tsukoyomi exerts the same harm as physical pain. It also affects the victim on a psychological level. It is said to be used as a method to interrogation. It also breaks someones will power and spirit. Kakashi was left in a coma after what happened, and was left in a critical state until Tsunade arrived.


What I meant is, if the third Raikage ever gets trapped in Itachi's tsukoyomi, he might suffer psychological pain, however he should able to resist the pain momentarily. The only way I see "Raikage" getting out of "Tsukuyomi" is if Itachi runs out of chakra or uses his Raiton Armor to speed up the neural synapses to make falling under genjutsu near impossible.


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## Ersa (Feb 19, 2013)

The problem is Tsukiyomi destroys the mind and puts most of its victims into comas (Kakashi and Sasuke), Kakashi even thought it could cause death. Physical durability means jack in Tsukiyomi, Raikage is a tank but as far as genjutsu resistance goes he has no dojutsu and no notable genjutsu feats.

OT; Itachi wins hard difficulty.

Susanoo and Tsukiyomi should grant him the win, it would be easy by any means however especially since you restricted Amaterasu.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 19, 2013)

Let's give Amaterasu to make it fair for Itachi, He have the best jutsus to deal with Raikagenaut but itachi have low stamina so he can't use his MS carelessly

-Like another guy said A had to be pinned down so he can be genjutsu'ed, it won't be easy for any genjutsu to hit Raikagenaut

-It's debatable if Amaterasu can burn Raikage, Raikage tanked FRS which weaker than amaterasu and it said he can tank Bijuudama but let's say big flame of amaterasu probably can burns him of course if he's fast enough and have great reflexes he can avoid it

-Against Susanoo we don't know if Nukite can pierce yata mirror but I don't think he can because yata mirror said to have very high defense and Totsuka probably can pierce and sealed him as well if Raikagenaut not aware

Itachi takes this with mid difficulty


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> Tsukuyomi cannot be dealt with easily, "Tsukuyomi" can only be broken by a Sharingan user that shares the same blood as the caster. Tsukoyomi is a higher level form of genjutsu due to its near-instant effect and the ability to render victims unconscious and paralyzed altogether. Average genjutsu's can also be broken if you stop the flow of chakra in your body and apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra as seen when "Sasuke" used a powerful Genjutsu on Killer bee but did not take effect due to "Gyuki" intercepting. Though In a way, Tsukoyomi exerts the same harm as physical pain. It also affects the victim on a psychological level. It is said to be used as a method to interrogation. It also breaks someones will power and spirit. Kakashi was left in a coma after what happened, and was left in a critical state until Tsunade arrived.



tl;Dr but I assume this is correct.
What I don't understand is... what did I ever do to be lectured about Tsukiyomi ? 




> What I meant is, if the third Raikage ever gets trapped in Itachi's tsukoyomi, he might suffer psychological pain, however he should able to resist the pain momentarily. The only way I see "Raikage" getting out of "Tsukuyomi" is if Itachi runs out of chakra or uses his Raiton Armor to speed up the neural synapses to make falling under genjutsu near impossible.



Well there are varying opinions on this but I don't think you can resist pyschological pain unless you have some kind of a defense against mental attacks.

Raikage is extremely durable, but thats his exterior. You can't say the same about his mind. 

Also neural synapse theory was proven to be ineffective when Madara OHKO'd A with a genjutsu.

edit : 



Rage of Hate said:


> Koto, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo, Sword of Totsuka, Izanami, Amaterasu
> 
> take your pick.



This reminded me of the initial fight between Zabuza & Kakashi & co where he was listing vital points of human body and asking them to take a pick.

Thats how this will go down. Itachi'll list the techniques which can OHKO Raikage and Raikage will have to pick the least painful one, that being Totsuka.


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> tl;Dr but I assume this is correct.
> What I don't understand is... what did I ever do to be lectured about Tsukiyomi ?
> 
> 
> ...




The only possible way of escaping "Tsukuyomi" is if you share the same blood with the castor or have a Bijuu that will intervene thus bringing you back into consciousness.

Leaving someone as strong as kakashi in a comma is proof of how much physical harm it imposes.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> The only possible way of escaping "Tsukuyomi" is if you share the same blood with the castor or have a Bijuu that will intervene thus bringing you back into consciousness.
> 
> Leaving someone as strong as kakashi in a comma is proof of how much physical harm it imposes.



Having a bijuu ain't gonna help you with Tsukuyomi.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> Having a bijuu ain't gonna help you with Tsukuyomi.


Probably not against Itachi's more advanced forms, which control the illusion of time. This has been debated in the dome before whether Naruto/Kurama could tank a 72 hour Tsukuyomi from Itachi. The fact the Raikage lasted 3 days in real life combat makes me think the illusion probably wouldn't put him down anyway, considering Kakashi was still able to stand after the healthy Itachi's strongest canon Tsukuyomi for several seconds. 

It certainly helped against Sasuke's, that's canon.


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Probably not against Itachi's more advanced forms, which control the illusion of time. This has been debated in the dome before whether Naruto/Kurama could tank a 72 hour Tsukuyomi from Itachi. The fact the Raikage lasted 3 days in real life combat makes me think the illusion probably wouldn't put him down anyway, considering Kakashi was still able to stand after the healthy Itachi's strongest canon Tsukuyomi for several seconds.
> 
> It certainly helped against Sasuke's, that's canon.



Bad Argument.

While it is impressive that Raikage could fight a bjuu for days, this has no bearing on his chances v Tsukyomi. In Tsukuyomi Itachi has 3 days in which he controls all space time, and matter. Raikage won't be able to defend himself here or really do anything except feel pain decided on by Itachi, if he got caught. So no, I doubt he shruggs off Tsukyomi lol.

Itachi did not hit Kakashi with his strongest Tsukuyomi....It is clear in the manga by now that Itachi wanted to do no harm to Konoha nin, and purposefully didn't hit him with his best shot, hell Kakashi himself questions why Itachi didn't just kill him, pointing to the fact Kakashi thouht Tsukuyomi had killing potential(he experienced it 1st hand)


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2013)

> While it is impressive that Raikage could fight a bjuu for days, this has no bearing on his chances v Tsukyomi. In Tsukuyomi Itachi has 3 days in which he controls all space time, and matter. Raikage won't be able to defend himself here or really do anything except feel pain decided on by Itachi, if he got caught. So no, I doubt he shruggs off Tsukyomi lol.


I highly doubt the pain or torture factor is as damaging as you previously suggested. Kakashi, someone who emits a less tough resolve compared to a Raikage who believed so much in his pride he didn't even tell his son how he got a massive scar on his chest was able to stand and trade clear dialogue with Asuma and Itachi after the 3-day Genjutsu. When the other kages thought their villages were doomed upon their revival, the Raikage suggested they should believe in the strength of their children and had no doubt they had already surpassed him. Kakashi is portrayed to be both mentally and physically inferior to the 3rd Raikage in my observation. You need to understand fighting three days straight against 10,000 shinobi isn't just physics, there is a psychological aspect to Gyuki, a tailed bijuu, referring to the Raikage as a "tough man". You highly underrate the Raikage's psychological strength. Canonically, he doesn't give up, ever. 



> Itachi did not hit Kakashi with his strongest Tsukuyomi....It is clear in the manga by now that Itachi wanted to do no harm to Konoha nin, and purposefully didn't hit him with his best shot, hell Kakashi himself questions why Itachi didn't just kill him, pointing to the fact Kakashi thouht Tsukuyomi had killing potential(he experienced it 1st hand)


That was his strongest canonically, the second strongest was used on kid Sasuke (24 hour) who went into a trance immediately. 

His last priority was ensuring Sharingan Kakashi lived on, this was obvious when he instructed Kisame to slaughter him after he collapsed from mental fatigue. Using an exploding shadow clone also isn't done in the mindset of "I don't want to hurt anyone." Itachi would have avoided hurting them if he could, but they were expendable in his view, as his safety (to protect Sasuke) and position in the Akatsuki (spy) was top priority when keeping the illusion in front of Kisame.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi did not hit Kakashi with his strongest Tsukuyomi....It is clear in the manga by now that Itachi wanted to do no harm to Konoha nin



That's actually just flat out false.



Had it not been for Gai's timely arrival, Kakashi wouldn't be with us today.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 19, 2013)

If Itachi had a jutsu like Chidori, Raikiri, or Rasengan, he'd be able to figure out and safely redirect the Sandaime Raikage's Nukite. But the fact of the matter, he doesn't. And Tsukuyomi, even if it hits it isn't a sure thing due to the sheer mental and physical hype that the Sandaime got. 

Totsuka needs far, far more feats (which it won't get) to have a chance of even piercing the Raiton no Yoroi around Sandaime, much less his extremely durable body. As it stands, that tool is useless. As is the Susano'o's attack Yasaka Magatama. 

Honestly, without Amaterasu Itachi has no means of putting the Raikage down. And even with Amaterasu, given the Raikage's insane chakra reserves there's no reason to believe he doesn't have a higher level of speed to react to and dodge it like his son.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If Itachi had a jutsu like Chidori, Raikiri, or Rasengan, he'd be able to figure out and safely redirect the Sandaime Raikage's Nukite. But the fact of the matter, he doesn't. And Tsukuyomi, even if it hits it isn't a sure thing due to the sheer mental and physical hype that the Sandaime got.
> 
> Totsuka needs far, far more feats (which it won't get) to have a chance of even piercing the Raiton no Yoroi around Sandaime, much less his extremely durable body. As it stands, that tool is useless. As is the Susano'o's attack Yasaka Magatama.
> 
> Honestly, without Amaterasu Itachi has no means of putting the Raikage down. And even with Amaterasu, given the Raikage's insane chakra reserves there's no reason to believe he doesn't have a higher level of speed to react to and dodge it like his son.



Yeah lets give every character an ability to beat itachi and make it canon. 

Dude Tsukuyomi has been hyped to the heavens. Plus there is a huge difference between physical durability and mental durability. 

Durability means shit to *ITACHI'S* Amaterasu as well as totsuka sword.

Any thing dished out by the raikage is either tank by susanoo or a clone or maybe even a genjutsu followed of with :

Koto, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo, Sword of Totsuka, Izanami, Amaterasu

Take your pick


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> > I highly doubt the pain or torture factor is as damaging as you previously suggested. Kakashi, someone who emits a less tough resolve compared to a Raikage who believed so much in his pride he didn't even tell his son how he got a massive scar on his chest was able to stand and trade clear dialogue with Asuma and Itachi after the 3-day Genjutsu. When the other kages thought their villages were doomed upon their revival, the Raikage suggested they should believe in the strength of their children and had no doubt they had already surpassed him. Kakashi is portrayed to be both mentally and physically inferior to the 3rd Raikage in my observation. You need to understand fighting three days straight against 10,000 shinobi isn't just physics, there is a psychological aspect to Gyuki, a tailed bijuu, referring to the Raikage as a "tough man". You highly underrate the Raikage's psychological strength. Canonically, he doesn't give up, ever.
> 
> 
> -I understand where you are coming from but in this case you are ignoring evidence to counter your point. The Raikage was able to fight the Bjuu because he was particularly skilled and had a perfect moveset to do so, I am not going to doubt the physical/mental strain in that situation but he is still a freely moving object capabale of dodging, fighting back, and mentally pushing himself through, but in Itachi's world of Tsukuyomi he controls everything that the user see's feels, hears, etc. Going through that kind of pain will take anyone of their feat who cannot counter. Kakashi is a very mentally tough ninja having been through war at 13, and lost both of his bestfriends in that same time period, not to mention his master a year later. Despite this he always looked out for others especially his team, there is no evidence to suggest Raikage was susbtantially mentally tougher than Kakashi, physically? Yeah that argument could be made but Kakashi is a veterened soldier mentally. Not only was he completely useless in battle after, but was bed ridden for a couple days after
> ...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 19, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> Yeah lets give every character an ability to beat itachi and make it canon.


Except I'm going by what the manga's said and shown.


> Dude Tsukuyomi has been hyped to the heavens. Plus there is a huge difference between physical durability and mental durability.


Yeah, Tsukuyomi's been so hyped it hasn't been relevant for over _200 chapters_. Its not like a MUCH weaker, mentally and physically person was conscious after being hit by it.


> Durability means shit to *ITACHI'S* Amaterasu as well as totsuka sword.


...didn't you read my post? Amaterasu, which is restricted her, is the only thing that can put the Sandaime Raikage down. And Totsuka has _no piercing feats_. If it does, show them. Show me something that shows it can get through the Sandaime Raikage's defenses.


> Any thing dished out by the raikage is either tank by susanoo or a clone or maybe even a genjutsu followed of with :
> 
> Koto, Tsukuyomi, Susanoo, Sword of Totsuka, Izanami, Amaterasu
> 
> Take your pick


Itachi doesn't have Kotoamatsukami. He explicitly said he doesn't have it and couldn't use it. Tsukuyomi, again its hype is kind of gone since it hasn't been used against any Kage-level opponent much less one with all the hyping that the Sandaime Raikage does. Sandaime Raikage which can physically go toe to toe with Biju should be able to rip all but the fourth Stage of Susano'o to shreds (oh, and btw, Itachi can't use it for long). Show Totsuka's feats, don't baselessly claim it can work on the Sandaime Raikage without them. Izanami, useless in this fight since the Sandaime Raikage isn't trying to be anyone else but himself. And Amaterasu is restricted.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 19, 2013)

> -I understand where you are coming from but in this case you are ignoring evidence to counter your point. The Raikage was able to fight the Bjuu because he was particularly skilled and had a perfect moveset to do so, I am not going to doubt the physical/mental strain in that situation but he is still a freely moving object capabale of dodging, fighting back, and mentally pushing himself through, but in Itachi's world of Tsukuyomi he controls everything that the user see's feels, hears, etc. Going through that kind of pain will take anyone of their feat who cannot counter. Kakashi is a very mentally tough ninja having been through war at 13, and lost both of his bestfriends in that same time period, not to mention his master a year later. Despite this he always looked out for others especially his team, there is no evidence to suggest Raikage was susbtantially mentally tougher than Kakashi, physically? Yeah that argument could be made but Kakashi is a veterened soldier mentally. Not only was he completely useless in battle after, but was bed ridden for a couple days after


Gyuki collapsed from fatigue during their battle. That means he outlasted the 2nd most powerful bijuu and managed to damage him severely by cutting his tails.

But this isn't the only example of his psychological and physical stamina. He fought 10,000 ninja for three days. That was not only accomplished with physical stamina, but psychological strength. Do you honestly believe Kakashi could have gone 3 days against 10,000 with the same skill set and physical stamina as the Raikage? The dude went until he collapsed dead. 

I don't think you're getting my point. The 3rd Raikage is perhaps the most powerful psychological fighter in the manga- bar Naruto and Hashirama. The fact his physical stamina allows him the ability to extend battles he can't win in an instant doesn't discount this ability. His resolve is stone cold, he never gave up even in the presence of a bijuu, even in the presence of 10,000 men with killer intent: alone. Do you honestly believe Genjutsu will put him in a coma? 

I used Kakashi as an example since he was the only one to receive this type of Tsukuyomi. The fact he was able to come out of 72 hours of torture and trade dialogue with Asuma and Itachi remaining conscious, standing for half a minute longer to me suggests someone with a stronger resolve and all-around stamina could survive this technique with a significantly lesser affect. I firmly believe he has the best chance out of anyone in the manga who could receive this level of mental stress and come out well enough to continue battle. 



> So you really don't understand the context of Itachi's character? He wasn't looking to kill any of them, hence why Kurenai's ass didn't get soloed off the bat, and why Kakashi didn't die from Tsukuyomi as he exclaimed. Itachi was playing the villian, who knows if he saw guy coming and set Kisame up to get kicked in the face, we don't know but what we do know is that Itachi was not  actively trying to hurt them, especially considering he was a pacifist and sat out vs fight Roshi.


She wasn't solo'd because Kakashi saved her from an exploding kage bushin, and because Kisame didn't give a darn. *Rocky* provided the scan which shows Itachi literally ordering Kisame to slaughter Kakashi after using his most powerful, most sinister, most damaging Genjutsu on him. 

What part of killer intent are you not getting?

We're aware that Itachi was a leaf ninja, we're aware he sacrificed his life and clan for the leaf, but Kakashi was an expendable ninja, along with Asuma and anyone else who could obstruct Kisame's view of Itachi's cold-blooded intent in that exchange. A final note, there's always the possibility that a grouchy in-pain post-MS Itachi was also annoyed that he would have to go through this amount of resistance just to find Sasuke. The fact that Kakashi was still standing might have pissed him off. Itachi isn't always the golden boy we make him out to be. Remember, at this point, the only thing that mattered to him was Sasuke, and Kakashi was blocking his path to his brother.


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## egressmadara (Feb 19, 2013)

A sick, IC Itachi would not be able to win this. He gets torn to bits by Sandaime.
A healthy/prime Itachi however can get him with Tsukuyomi or pull out the Yata's Mirror and hopefully keep track of Sandaime's movements.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 19, 2013)

egressmadara said:


> A sick, IC Itachi would not be able to win this. He gets torn to bits by Sandaime.
> A healthy/prime Itachi however can get him with Tsukuyomi or pull out the Yata's Mirror and hopefully keep track of Sandaime's movements.


Healthy/Prime Itachi doesn't exist. Its a fan made thing. Only Edo Itachi has a chance since he doesn't suffer from the abysmal stamina problems that Itachi had in life due to having unlimited chakra and stamina. Not only that, Yata Mirror isn't omnidirectional either, the Sandaime hits Susano'o from behind he should be able to cut through it like a hot knife through butter.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi said things like this multiple times while under his evil guise and everytime someone came to stop Kisame.



So you're supporting my point? 

Itachi was pretending to be evil, yes. That doesn't automatically mean Itachi won't kill Konoha's Shinobi. This is the man that murdered his clan, including the ones, such as young children, that were uninvolved in the coup. 

The "context" of Itachi's action were as clear as day. "Take Kakashi out" doesn't leave much room for interpretation, unless you want to argue Itachi meant on a date.

Itachi ultimately cared not for the fate of Kakashi. Otherwise Itachi, who had no way of knowing Gai would intervene, wouldn't have ordered Kisame to slaughter him. Can you not at least admit that?


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Gyuki collapsed from fatigue during their battle. That means he outlasted the 2nd most powerful bijuu and managed to damage him severely by cutting his tails.
> 
> But this isn't the only example of his psychological and physical stamina. He fought 10,000 ninja for three days. That was not only accomplished with physical stamina, but psychological strength. Do you honestly believe Kakashi could have gone 3 days against 10,000 with the same skill set and physical stamina as the Raikage? The dude went until he collapsed dead.
> 
> ...



You wrote alot about nothing dude.

A.) Rakage's feats of physical endurance are very very impressive. This has nothing to do with how he will fair in a world where the opponent controls every damn aspect and can torture you in any fashion to any degree for 3 days time. Raikage fighting the Bjuu required the chakra to last that long, and the moves to fend/attack the Bjuu. Talking about how hard it was means nothing, Tsukuyomi fries minds, and his mind would be fried if he got hit, this is pretty open and closed. The ninja Raikage fought were not all on his level, unless you think there was an army of unstoppable kage level ninja running around, and that Sandaime Raikage would have been able to beat such army. His men were going to lose the battle overall so he sacrificed himself for their escape. You ar blowing stuff out of proportion and trying to give Saindaime some resistance to Tsukuyomi that hasn't been noted or hinted in the slightest. Hell Tsukuyomi is so versatile that not only can it put a person into a coma, but it can actually be used to hypnotize people and control them(Sasuke showed this with his EMS Tsukuyomi and ITachi claimed he would use Tsukuyomi to make Kabuto tell him the secrets then make him dispell ET, before finding out about his genjutsu defenses.) There is really no getting around it Ko'ing you unless you can counter it or not get hit at all.

B.) Itachi did not have killer intent and it is a baseless assumption to assume he was ambivalent to Konoha ninja. Do you even read this manga? honestly? Itachi gave up any chance at a normal or successful life(his potential in the ninja world was amazing) in his choosing to kill the clan. He did this for The clan and Konoha: when Itachi came back as an edo what was the Kotoamatsuki set to do? Hypontize whoever it hit to protect Konoha, Itachi clearly cared about the village deeply. If you can't see how Itachi wasn't fighting with killing intent I don't know what to tell you, he was much more ative vs Hebi Sasuke(which was also thrown) and sits in the dust in comaprison to his edo performance. It is obvious the most logical conclusion is that at the time Kishi was trying heavily to persuade us that Itachi was evil, which would include throwing in actions or statments that appear to be evil. This was fine and dandy until we actually got information on his background and learned he was the complete opposite in that he always cared for Konoha since a young age, and then went on to sacrifice his life by killing his clan for said village. all the evidence we have now points to him being benevolent, and with tobi's claims of Itachi being a pacifist(backed up by his refusal to hrm Konoha nin/Bjuu) and acknowldgment that he was a spy it is fair to say we know for sure Itachi was throwing his mission and went there for ulterior motives and in the midst ha to fight for appearences but didn't want to actively kill them



Rocky said:


> So you're supporting my point?
> 
> Itachi was pretending to be evil, yes. That doesn't automatically mean Itachi won't kill Konoha's Shinobi. This is the man that murdered his clan, including the ones, such as young children, that were uninvolved in the coup.
> 
> ...


-Itachi doesn't like to kill *any shinobi* that is my point. He didn't want to kill ever since he was around 4, he doesn't like it. It is clear as day that Itachi loved his village which includes all inhabitants and ninja, and was acting as a spy for Konoha. Why the fuck would a double spy kill one of his friends from the home country? This wouldn't happen logistaclly unless Itachi was defending himself, or had some personal grudge against Kakashi. We know the former is the correct choice, as he snuck into Konoha so that he could get spotted and find out where Sasuke/Naruto were. Once again Itachi had to keep appearences up as Kisame was Tobi's left hand man and was keeping an eye on him, I don't know if Itachi was serious or if he saw gu coming or what. But with the way Kishi is portraying him, and has ever since that pt. 1 scene the most reasonable conclusion to me is that Kishi had to make him look evil and could easily make it real using plot to cancel out said action. For example do you really expect me to believe Itachi would have let Kisame cut off Naruto's legs then drag him back to base while he bled out? I don't think so, this is why don't take panels in and of themselves(unless for feats or hype) and analyze them because it is fucking stupid and will most likely give you a faulty conclusion, it is akin to taking a line out of a story, and analyzing it as absolute truth when you haven't read the next 300 pages. *It's ridiculous. * It's only when hater's need fuel for their fire that they bring out these panels to juice things up when any objective fan of the series can point out the bias or fallacy in their argument.

The uchiha clan massacre cannot be compared. The only reason Itachi slaughtered the clan is because he was under direct order of Konoha. Either way this was to go down, but one way involoved everybody barring himself, and the other allowed him to save his brother albeit his cooperation. In the end Itachi could have warned his family and crossed Konoha but he decided for the people and stability of Konoha to carry out said deed. You fail to realize that Hiruzen and the people that run Konoha were going to do the same exact thing for the "greater good" the reason they killed the babies is because all uchiha carry the same seed of hatred hence the chain, Itachi was unique and that's why they chose him as the inside wheel to carry out the mission, and even trusted him enough to let Sasuke live, and allow him to work with akatsuki. 

This is not the same as a situation as to which Itachi can control. Oh yeah when did he do that? I don't vs Orochimaru? or how about the man who summoned him from the dead to use him, and tried to snatch his brother..? Oh Kabuto, he spared them both without need and they were actively threatning him with the potential to do it.


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Beating a dead horse here.
> 
> I'm finished.



Informal concession accepted.

Also Beating a dead Horse:

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Itachi doesn't like to kill *any shinobi* that is my point. He didn't want to kill ever since he was around 4, he doesn't like it. It is clear as day that Itachi loved his village which includes all inhabitants and ninja, and was acting as a spy for Konoha. Why the fuck would a double spy kill one of his friends from the home country? This wouldn't happen logistaclly unless Itachi was defending himself, or had some personal grudge against Kakashi. We know the former is the correct choice, as he snuck into Konoha so that he could get spotted and find out where Sasuke/Naruto were. Once again Itachi had to keep appearences up as Kisame was Tobi's left hand man and was keeping an eye on him, I don't know if Itachi was serious or if he saw gu coming or what. But with the way Kishi is portraying him, and has ever since that pt. 1 scene the most reasonable conclusion to me is that Kishi had to make him look evil and could easily make it real using plot to cancel out said action. For example do you really expect me to believe Itachi would have let Kisame cut off Naruto's legs then drag him back to base while he bled out? I don't think so, this is why don't take panels in and of themselves(unless for feats or hype) and analyze them because it is fucking stupid and will most likely give you a faulty conclusion, it is akin to taking a line out of a story, and analyzing it as absolute truth when you haven't read the next 300 pages. *It's ridiculous. * It's only when hater's need fuel for their fire that they bring out these panels to juice things up when any objective fan of the series can point out the bias or fallacy in their argument.

The uchiha clan massacre cannot be compared. The only reason Itachi slaughtered the clan is because he was under direct order of Konoha. Either way this was to go down, but one way involoved everybody barring himself dying(and maybe him since he would have "knew to much"), and the other allowed him to save his brother albeit his cooperation. In the end Itachi could have warned his family and crossed Konoha but he decided for the people and stability of Konoha to carry out said deed. You fail to realize that Hiruzen and the people that run Konoha were going to do the same exact thing for the "greater good" the reason they killed the babies is because all uchiha carry the same seed of hatred hence the chain, Itachi was unique and that's why they chose him as the inside wheel to carry out the mission, and even trusted him enough to let Sasuke live, and allowed him to work with akatsuki. 

This is not the same as a situation as to which Itachi can control. Oh yeah when did he do that? I don't know vs Orochimaru? or how about the man who summoned him from the dead to use him, and tried to snatch his brother..? Oh Kabuto, he spared them both without need and they were actively threatning him with the potential to do it.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> But with the way Kishi is portraying him, and has ever since that pt. 1 scene the most reasonable conclusion to me is that Kishi had to make him look evil and could easily make it real using plot to cancel out said action. For example do you really expect me to believe Itachi would have let Kisame cut off Naruto's legs then drag him back to base while he bled out? I don't think so, this is why don't take panels in and of themselves(unless for feats or hype) and analyze them because it is fucking stupid and will most likely give you a faulty conclusion, it is akin to taking a line out of a story, and analyzing it as absolute truth when you haven't read the next 300 pages. *It's ridiculous. *



You're starting to go off topic and rant about Itachi. I don't need to hear that. I'm aware of Itachi's backstory.

My judgement doesn't require much analysis at all. I'm telling you what Kishi wrote down on the panel. I'm not trying to convince you that Itachi was secretly evil all along, I' telling you what the Ink says.

Itachi tells Kisame to kill Kakashi.

Gai intervenes.

Itachi is _surprised._

You're trying to tell me that Itachi actually never wanted Kisame to kill Kakashi. You're argument is that Kishi wanted to display Itachi as a villain, so he had plot cancel his words. When we discuss the motives of a fictional character, plot is not an argument. Plot is an excuse.

What's even more amusing, is that you claim Itachi had no killer intent, based on Kakashi's "why didn't he kill me?" statement. Well which is it? Was Kishi trying to display Itachi as merciful and unwilling to kill the Leaf Shinobi, like you argued before? Or was Itachi supposed to be displayed as a crook, like you're arguing now?


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> > You're trying to tell me that Itachi actually never wanted Kisame to kill Kakashi. You're argument is that Kishi wanted to display Itachi as a villain, so he had plot cancel his words. When we discuss the motives of a fictional character, plot is not an argument. Plot is an excuse.
> 
> 
> -No I never made an absolute claim to as Itachi's knowledge. What I am saying is that we have these actions from Itachi which at the time appeared to indicate killer intent, and Itachi's true intentions. What we have on those panels is Kishi trying to portray him as evil, we later found out that he wasn't evil and was masqeurading as an evil guy throwing his missions. The consequnces of understanding this is that realizing Itachi was in no way actively trying to harm Kakashi and Co. He was simply defending himself all the while trying get to his goal of checking up on Sasuke. Given this information we can deduce that Itachi did not have killer intent, and was trying only to keep his double act up.
> ...


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> Having a bijuu ain't gonna help you with Tsukuyomi.



Stating something has to be taken with precaution regardless of what proof you have. Killer bee escaped sasuke's weaker version of "Tsukuyomi" due to "Gyuki" intervening. Though Itachi's Tsukoyomi is pretty powerful or should be stronger than sasuke's, Itachi's Tsukuyomi has been shown to but the victim in a very real and very painful Genjutsu. If it is slowing someone down, it is because their mind is getting screwed beyond reason.

Sasuke not being as skilled with Tsukuyomi as Itachi is should be self explainable.

Honestly I'd go with the idea that it cannot be broken unless you fulfill the requirements Itachi stated (the Sharingan + the same blood as him), as it would make much more sense, being a Mangekyo technique and all (even becoming a double edged sword unless you evolve your MS yet again). Of course there are some special conditions that can override this but for the most part... probably not. Some may say that Itachi didn't try it on everybody and thus it's a baseless statement.. but are we sure? If Kakashi wasn't able to think of a way to find a loop hole once trapped (and he even seemed to have previous knowledge of Tsukuyomi), I doubt there are many who can.

This is just the most logical way I can think of unless somebody can write a convincing case stating otherwise.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 19, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> Having a bijuu ain't gonna help you with Tsukuyomi.



Read  With that, I believe it does.


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## KnightGhost (Feb 19, 2013)

Black fire solos

He can fight for 3 days but there is still 4 days left.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Feb 19, 2013)

Itachi wins

Raikage hasn't shown he can avoid eye contact or fight without it, especially with his linear style. And even if he does, Itachi can easily get eye contact with shadow clones. Just because you know you have to avoid eye contact doesn't mean you will avoid it 100% throughout the fight, the entire shinobi world already knows that Uchiha are known for their genjutsu, but knowing about eye contact didn't stop them from being top tier.

From there Itachi genjutsus Raikage into stabbing himself.

Or Amaterasu could possibly beat Raikage after an extended period. He hasn't shown to be as fast as A, and he has no way of putting it out.


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## Thunder (Feb 20, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Black fire solos
> 
> He can fight for 3 days but there is still 4 days left.





Gin Ichimaru said:


> Itachi wins
> Or Amaterasu could possibly beat Raikage after an extended period. He hasn't shown to be as fast as A, and he has no way of putting it out.



Amaterasu is restricted, check the OP.


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## Shinryu (Feb 20, 2013)

3rd Raikge speedblitzes him and dodges his Amaterasus like nothing then impales Itachi before he can even do Susanoo


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