# Tobirama vs Ginkaku and Kinkaku



## joshhookway (Apr 1, 2014)

Location: juubi battlefield
Knowledge: full
Restrictions: Tobirama gets two generic fodder jounin edos


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

Um he looses. Read the Manga, it's in there.


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## Cognitios (Apr 1, 2014)

> Um he looses. Read the Manga, it's in there.


We don't know if he had full knowledge on the tools, if he didn't thats probably a major reason as to why he lost.
But I think Ginkaku and Kinkaku win this, make Tobirama Edo Tensei with Full knowledge and he wins.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 1, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Location: juubi battlefield
> Knowledge: full


Tobirama cannot win this...his defeat was noted in the manga for a reason.



> Restrictions: Tobirama gets two generic fodder jounin edos



Inb4 fan-fic flood...


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## Veracity (Apr 1, 2014)

Are you serious lol? We have no idea how that fight played out ? There is numerous amounts of shit that could of happened.

It's like saving Itachi lost to Hebi Sasuke without knowing the specifications of the battle. 

Anyway, feat wise Tobirama trashes these 2.


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## Rob (Apr 1, 2014)

Kishi is so inconsistent with his words... 

Kakuzu fought Hashirama? 
>Shows us Hashi's feats, which make that scenario nearly impossible

Gin/Kin beat Tobirama? 
>Though they have some hax tools, I'm almost certain that Tobi has feats that far surpass anything they've shown

Jiraiya>Kisame or Itachi? 
>I won't argue here, but I won't say that an argument couldn't be made for the latter 2

Kishi, Kishi'ing


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## Cognitios (Apr 1, 2014)

> Are you serious lol? We have no idea how that fight played out ? There is numerous amounts of shit that could of happened.
> 
> It's like saving Itachi lost to Hebi Sasuke without knowing the specifications of the battle.
> 
> Anyway, feat wise Tobirama trashes these 2.


Portrayal wise too, Tobirama was stated to be at the same level as EMS Madara, Gin and Kin have been portrayed at the level of Darui individually, and probably in the Mid Kage Tier Together, but that's when someone has knowledge on the tools.
Gin and Kin are like Hidan, the more knowledge you have on them, the weaker they get.


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It's like saving Itachi lost to Hebi Sasuke without knowing the specifications of the battle.




Except Tobirama didn't have any reason to throw the fight against them. 

The second Raikage was also there, and Tobirama still nearly died...


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## Rob (Apr 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Except Tobirama didn't have any reason to throw the fight against them.
> 
> The second Raikage was also there, and Tobirama still nearly died...



I hate it when authors use false-hype like that 

It's almost enough to ruin the great-Tobirama.


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## Cognitios (Apr 1, 2014)

> Except Tobirama didn't have any reason to throw the fight against them.
> 
> The second Raikage was also there, and Tobirama still nearly died...


For all we know the Second Raikage had a reason to throw the fight. Maybe Tobirama couldn't attack a cloud ninja, especially when discussing a peace agreement, it wouldn't look very good if Tobirama attacked 2 cloud shinobi while saying he's not going to attack any cloud shinobi.


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Kakuzu fought Hashirama?
> >Shows us Hashi's feats, which make that scenario nearly impossible




Kakuzu was sent to assassinate him IIRC, which wouldn't involve direct confrontation. It also didn't seem like Kakuzu gave Hashirama any difficulty. 



> Gin/Kin beat Tobirama?
> >Though they have some hax tools, I'm almost certain that Tobi has feats that far surpass anything they've shown




Nah they were doing well against the division. Darui is just bad as hell. 

But honestly, they probably bet him using Rokubi Mode.



> Jiraiya>Kisame or Itachi?
> >I won't argue here, but I won't say that an argument couldn't be made for the latter 2




It was in regards to that exact scenario, and it was Part 1 Kisame.




RobLucciRapes said:


> I hate it when authors use false-hype like that
> 
> It's almost enough to ruin the great-Tobirama.




Since the hype came in the recent War Arc, I'm sticking to it. It was also stated like three or four different times, so I'm thinking Kishimoto believes they are better...


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## Veracity (Apr 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Except Tobirama didn't have any reason to throw the fight against them.
> 
> The second Raikage was also there, and Tobirama still nearly died...



Except the Raikage could have said freaking lariat and got instantly sealed making it 2 vs 1. Then Tobirama could have been protecting people( Kakashi vs Zabuza) . 

We also do not know what techniques Tobirama had at the time, he obviously want using Edo, and his FTG could have been severely basic.  Kin and gin could have had full knowledge on Tobirama and could have had a shit ton of back up( canonically already happened) or Tobirama could have had a freaking cold lol we have no idea.

It's also to note that even if Tobirama fair and square lost that was mainly due to the BM Cloak that Tobirama cannot get through. He could have been massively superior to them btw.

It's like giving Iruka iron mans armor and putting him up against Hashirama Senju.


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> For all we know the Second Raikage had a reason to throw the fight. Maybe Tobirama couldn't attack a cloud ninja, especially when discussing a peace agreement, it wouldn't look very good if Tobirama attacked 2 cloud shinobi while saying he's not going to attack any cloud shinobi.




....then Second Raikage would've stepped in and stopped the brothers. The Peace Treaty was mutual. 

Kin & Gin were trying to stage a coup d'etat, so both the Raikage & Hokage would've logically attempted to stop that. It isn't like Tobirama would just stand there and let them beat him to the brink of death anyway; obviously he's going to defend himself regardless of any peace agreements.


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## richard lewis (Apr 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Except Tobirama didn't have any reason to throw the fight against them.
> 
> The second Raikage was also there, and Tobirama still nearly died...



Yea but we don't know what kind of prep they had, for all we know they could have rigged a billion explosive tags like konan and nearly killed the kages in the blast. Lets not make assumptions about how the fight went down.

Any way tobirama should most likely win this, FTG plus multi explosive tags ends the gin min bro's


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

Haven't they defeated him twice already?  
even with his 6 students they still thought that they don't have a chance.  

Well, I don't see why would it be hard to defeat him a 3rd time.


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## richard lewis (Apr 1, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Haven't they defeated him twice already?
> even with his 6 students they still thought that they don't have a chance.
> 
> Well, I don't see why would it be hard to defeat him a 3rd time.



Was it ever even stated that gin and kin are in the kinkaku squad? That just seems like an assumption people made, even if they where it was gin and kin plus other 18 elite ninja.


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Except the Raikage could have said freaking lariat and got instantly sealed making it 2 vs 1. Then Tobirama could have been protecting people( Kakashi vs Zabuza) .




The Raikage wasn't stated to have been killed there, and if Tobirama had anyone with him, it was most likely his Jonin body guards.



> We also do not know what techniques Tobirama had at the time, he obviously want using Edo, and his FTG could have been severely basic.  Kin and gin could have had full knowledge on Tobirama and could have had a shit ton of back up( canonically already happened) or Tobirama could have had a freaking cold lol we have no idea.




Kishimoto didn't supply us with any of that detail because he didn't think it was important. What we do have is multiple character statements reassuring us that he lost. You're just making excuses because you think Tobirama's feats are better. 

It baffles me that you think the brothers weren't actually stronger, even though all of the dialogue about them was put there to directly hype their power.



> It's also to note that even if Tobirama fair and square lost that was mainly due to the BM Cloak that Tobirama cannot get through. He could have been massively superior to them btw.




Tobirama isn't massively superior to v2 Kinkaku or Ginkaku if he can't get through their cloaks... 



> It's like giving Iruka iron mans armor and putting him up against Hashirama Senju.




So basically Iron Man vs. Hashirama. Tony Stark is just a normal human. 

..what's your point?


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Yea but we don't know what kind of prep they had, for all we know they could have rigged a billion explosive tags like konan and nearly killed the kages in the blast. Lets not make assumptions about how the fight went down.




If they won by some extensively prepared trap like that, I'm sure the Tsunade would've mentioned it.


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## Cognitios (Apr 1, 2014)

> ....then Second Raikage would've stepped in and stopped the brothers. The Peace Treaty was mutual.
> 
> Kin & Gin were trying to stage a coup d'etat, so both the Raikage & Hokage would've logically attempted to stop that. It isn't like Tobirama would just stand there and let them beat him to the brink of death anyway; obviously he's going to defend himself regardless of any peace agreements.


I said for all we know, the politics back then was kind of tricky, we don't know what Nidaime Raikage was like, he could have been like Muu. Maybe the coup d'etat was actually meant to be an assassination of Tobirama, maybe Gin and Kin pulled a Tobirama, we just don't know, that's my point.


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## Cognitios (Apr 1, 2014)

> If they won by some extensively prepared trap like that, I'm sure the Tsunade would've mentioned it.


Because Tsunade was there.



> Was it ever even stated that gin and kin are in the kinkaku squad? That just seems like an assumption people made, even if they where it was gin and kin plus other 18 elite ninja.


No, it was never stated, but people still view it as canon.



> Since the hype came in the recent War Arc, I'm sticking to it. It was also stated like three or four different times, so I'm thinking Kishimoto believes they are better...


An argument could be made for Kin and Gin beating anyone in the manga if they don't have knowledge, they are just that hax


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## richard lewis (Apr 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If they won by some extensively prepared trap like that, I'm sure the Tsunade would've mentioned it.



Well I'm not, hanzo for example fought all 3 sannin.... He obviously most have had some serious prep or the sannin where weaker than there prime or something but kishi didn't specify. He seems do this stuff a lot.


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Well I'm not, hanzo for example fought all 3 sannin.... He obviously most have had some serious prep or the sannin where weaker than there prime or something but kishi didn't specify. He seems do this stuff a lot.




The Sannin were much, much younger back then....

Plus Hanzo _in his prime_ was _really_ fucking good.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Was it ever even stated that gin and kin are in the kinkaku squad? That just seems like an assumption people made, even if they where it was gin and kin plus other 18 elite ninja.



Well, both of "their" names is Kinkaku, and both were said to battled Tobirama and defeated him.
I don't see why do we have to assume that they are different,  
as a matter of fact that will make Tobirama's case even worst for at least the Kinkaku that we know
of has Kurama's chakra and the Sage's tools. 

but if they were different, then Tobirama basically died to a bunch  of fodders (which he kinda did either way ).


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## joshhookway (Apr 1, 2014)

We never saw Tobirama and Bros fight. You can't assume that they're stronger than Tobirama.

Before we saw Valley of the End, everyone thought Hashirama was fodder to Old Man Hiruzen.


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Because Tsunade was there.




She had the details of the event. How do you think she knew of their treasures and extent of the 2nd's injuries?  



> An argument could be made for Kin and Gin beating anyone in the manga if they don't have knowledge, they are just that hax



They have to touch you with the rope first. So no, because there are quite a few people they couldn't lay a finger on.


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## Veracity (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Raikage wasn't stated to have been killed there, and if Tobirama had anyone with him, it was most likely his Jonin body guards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Raikage was also never stated to not have died. Same the sage was never stated to have a brother despite it being very important right? You know very well that Kishi butchers his story every afternoon. He also forgets important parts like a fucker . 

It doesn't matter what Tobirama has as back up. He had less preparation then the brothers by far. The brothers most likely planned that entire attack and came with hoards of Shinobi plus full knowledge as opposed to Tobirama having 2 Jounin Shinobi and zero knowledge.

Kishi didn't supply any information of the sages brother despite it being the most important thing at the moment? Lol.

Kishi also didn't supply any information to Hashirama's death despite him being the strongest Shinobi vastly at the time. 

We also have multiple character statements that amount to nothing. Like Itachi getting his ass handed to him by both Jirayia despite him having Amaterasu at his disposal and Genjustu that one paneled his Sannin equal.

I don't "think " Tobirama has better feats. Tobirama has better feats. Point blank period. It's like if you found it tomorrow that SM Jirayia lost to Tsunade. Just wouldn't make sense right ? 

It's also to note that a coup implies that Tobirama was probably snuck attack and injured at the start of the battle. He could have been sipping tea and got a sword through his scrotum. 

Yes he can be massively superior to them without having a means to breaking their defense. Great defense doesn't mean anything. It's like he example I just brought up. Iruka with iron man armor would be un killable in this manga solely due to his defense despite him being a poor ninja.

This is more or less like the Sannin vs Hanzo. We have no idea what happened or what techniques were used. All we know is that according to feats each Sannin is massively superior to Hanzos pathetic ass let alone all 3. They could have been no knowledge'd one shotted by poison.


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## Cognitios (Apr 2, 2014)

> She had the details of the event. How do you think she knew of their treasures and extent of the 2nd's injuries?


She was not there, she didn't know exactly what happened, she didn't even know what the tools did. She knew what was told to her, but not the techniques or what happened, she gave a page explanation for a 10 chapter fight.


> They have to touch you with the rope first. So no, because there are quite a few people they couldn't lay a finger on.


I said an argument could be made, Minato goes in CQC and touches it without knowledge.
Basically anyone getting close has a chance to die by it without knowledge. 
Doesn't mean its a high chance, but it is a chance.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The Raikage was also never stated to not have died.




Terrible logic.  



> Same the sage was never stated to have a brother despite it being very important right?




Actually that was stated last chapter.



> It doesn't matter what Tobirama has as back up. He had less preparation then the brothers by far. The brothers most likely planned that entire attack and came with hoards of Shinobi plus full knowledge as opposed to Tobirama having 2 Jounin Shinobi and zero knowledge.




Tsunade didn't mention anything about Kinkaku & Ginkaku having any support when they attacked the Kage.



> We also have multiple character statements that amount to nothing. Like Itachi getting his ass handed to him by both Jirayia despite him having Amaterasu at his disposal and Genjustu that one paneled his Sannin equal.




That's one, from the middle of part one, that actually isn't completely false. Maybe the best Itachi & Kisame could've done was tie in that specific situation.

Btw, Young Orochimaru < Orochimaru < Jiraiya



> I don't "think " Tobirama has better feats. Tobirama has better feats. Point blank period. It's like if you found it tomorrow that SM Jirayia lost to Tsunade. Just wouldn't make sense right ?




You know, I always though that Jubito had better feats than Naruto & Sasuke. Then friendship & subconscious wills came along.



> It's also to note that a coup implies that Tobirama was probably snuck attack and injured at the start of the battle. He could have been sipping tea and got a sword through his scrotum.




Don't make stuff up please. 



> Yes he can be massively superior to them without having a means to breaking their defense. Great defense doesn't mean anything. It's like he example I just brought up. Iruka with iron man armor would be un killable in this manga solely due to his defense despite him being a poor ninja.




Narutoverse >>>> Iruka with Iron Man armor > Iron Man .

But I still don't see your point. If Iruka get's a major boost like Iron Man's armor, then he becomes much stronger. Who cares if he's a poor ninja? 



> This is more or less like the Sannin vs Hanzo. We have no idea what happened or what techniques were used. All we know is that according to feats each Sannin is massively superior to Hanzos pathetic ass let alone all 3. They could have been no knowledge'd one shotted by poison.




I don't really care how the fight went down. If it was important, the author would tell me. Otherwise, Prime Hanzo > Young Sannin. There's really no reason to question it unless it's been contradicted.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> She was not there, she didn't know exactly what happened, she didn't even know what the tools did. She knew what was told to her, but not the techniques or what happened, she gave a page explanation for a 10 chapter fight.




Whoever gave her that information wouldn't leave out that detail.

Actually, if you're suggesting that there was a factor in that fight that boosted the brothers above Tobirama in battle, then the author of the Manga wouldn't have left it out and told us otherwise. 



> I said an argument could be made, Minato goes in CQC and touches it without knowledge.
> Basically anyone getting close has a chance to die by it without knowledge.
> Doesn't mean its a high chance, but it is a chance.




Instead of touching the rope, Minato would cut Kinkaku's head off. 

There's always a "chance" that the G&S bros could beat anybody, but that chance isn't worth mentioning if it's astronomically small. Haku technically has a chance to knock Itachi out with a senbon, but something tells me that probably wouldn't happen....


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## Cognitios (Apr 2, 2014)

> Instead of touching the rope, Minato would cut Kinkaku's head off.


I thought Kunai couldn't get through V2 Shroud?
Unless you wish to suggest that Tobirama entire arsenal is weaker than a kunai



> Whoever gave her that information wouldn't leave out that detail.
> 
> Actually, if you're suggesting that there was a factor in that fight that boosted the brothers above Tobirama in battle, then the author of the Manga wouldn't have left it out and told us otherwise.


Thats why whoever wrote the tablet left out RS's brother
That's why the author didn't mention Minato had SM
Kishi is inconsistent in what he says, he doesn't say the whole truth and retcons things constantly


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2014)

It's blatantly stated 3 times that Kin&Gin defeated Tobirama. At absolute best one could argue is that it was a close match, however that actual language used by people speaking about the event seems to indicate it was more around mid to at most high diff. 

Takl Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku? 
Shisui, "Imagine us being caught in the jutsu of the Second Hokage who we wiped the floor with/killed/etc."

Shikkamaru "So we're suppose to fight this legendary monster Kinkaku who once messed up the second Hokage"

Tsunade, "they drove the second hokage to the brink of death"


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## Veracity (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Terrible logic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's nice.

I know it was stated last chapter. But last time he was mentioned there was nothing about him having a brother. Back then it was logical to assume he was an only child , which is wrong.


Kin and gin had knowledge before they attacked. Why would they sneak attack a Kage summit by themselves. It also explains why they brought back up the second time.

Itachi still had Amaterasu and top tiered Genjustu at the time. He also had MS opposed to Jirayia not having SM at all.

All the Sannin are stated to be equal. Especially In base .

Oro has a superior stat in Genjusu compared to Jirayia. Jirayia also commented in the fact that he was a "novice " in the department. Itachi ONE paneled Oro with Genjustu alone. Jirayia was worse then oro at Genjustu. What does this mean ? Even if Jirayia was superior , that doesn't make up the difference of his equal being one paneled without the use of MS.

Itachi also had Kisame as back up.

That has nothing to do with anything. Naruto and Sasuke are the Main characters. They have a heavy plot shield. Juubitos ability also various with his confidence. You know damn well that Tobirama has better feats then Gin and Kin, I shouldn't have to break this down for anyone. I could use the excuse you just did for eventing in the manga. I use to think Tsunade was superior to Iruka until Naruto and Sasuke...

Is that not what a coup implies ?

You most not read marvel comics. Iron man has armor capable of tanking planet busting attacks without a scratch.

I'm not referring to iron mans suit , but his armor . Meaning literally JUST the defensive armor. No offensive ability at all. That would still put Iruka above Hashirama . He could just crouch for an hour and let Hashirama wear himself out and then kill him.

Kishi contradicts himself ALL the time. The Hanzo battle contradicts all feats possible. Character statements are less concrete then pure feats.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I thought Kunai couldn't get through V2 Shroud?
> Unless you wish to suggest that Tobirama entire arsenal is weaker than a kunai




If Kinkaku is in v2, the rope is covered by the shroud and Minato need not worry about touching it.

It's worth noting that Minato may have a way of dealing with the v2 shroud anyway considering he apparently beat the tank Raikage multiple times.



> Thats why whoever wrote the tablet left out RS's brother
> That's why the author didn't mention Minato had SM
> Kishi is inconsistent in what he says, he doesn't say the whole truth and retcons things constantly




Okay, well can you prove that this particular instance is a retcon?


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's blatantly stated 3 times that Kin&Gin defeated Tobirama. At absolute best one could argue is that it was a close match, however that actual language used by people speaking about the event seems to indicate it was more around mid to at most high diff.
> 
> Takl Gin Kaku: t's a damn shame... that we are under the jutsu of the second hokage we fucking wiped the floor with...innit, kinkaku?
> Shisui, "Imagine us being caught in the jutsu of the Second Hokage who we wiped the floor with/killed/etc."
> ...



We don't know what exactly happened during the fight. You can't judge a fight by vague translations.

Gin and Kinkaku were getting handled by Darui with Tobirama is fucking with the Juubi Jin.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Gin and Kinkaku were getting handled by Darui with Tobirama is fucking with the Juubi Jin.




Darui would've lost _even if _he didn't get lucky with "sorry" becoming his most spoken word last-second. He couldn't handle the 6-tailed cloak.

Tobirama got horrifically stomped by Rinnegan Madara, and would stand no chance against Jubito alone.


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## Lord Satan (Apr 2, 2014)

1.Tobirama rapes these two if he can use ET to summon someone who was actually a badass. 
2. Tobirama rapes these two if he is at his full power.
3. Tobirama rapes these two if he is a t 50 %.
4. Tobirama gets killed if Kishi is on crack while writing this storyline.


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Darui would've lost _even if _he didn't get lucky with "sorry" becoming his most spoken word last-second. He couldn't handle the 6-tailed cloak.
> 
> Tobirama got horrifically stomped by Rinnegan Madara, and would stand no chance against Jubito alone.



If Gin and Kinkaku weren't edos, Darui would have killed them earlier



Just the fact that Tobirama could compete with Juubito means something. Losing to Rinnegan Senjutus Madara is no shame as an inferior Madara easily beat Hashirama


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

Tobirama was cut in half by Jubito during their first engagement. He didn't compete.

Though I suppose you're right about Darui; The Brothers wouldn't have been able to keep going with those injuries had they been alive. Darui is pretty strong I hear though.


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## Dominus (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Um he looses. Read the Manga, it's in there.



They ambushed him, we don't even know if there was a fight, they could have just jumped and punched him or something, I'm not sure how that proves that they are stronger than him. 

We also don't know if he could use Edo Tensei back then and whether he had full knowledge, I wouldn't say that it wouldn't change anything.


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama was cut in half by Jubito during their first engagement. He didn't compete.
> 
> Though I suppose you're right about Darui; The Brothers wouldn't have been able to keep going with those injuries had they been alive. Darui is pretty strong I hear though.



He was cut in half so that he could tag Obito. He only stayed knowing he was an edo. 

Darui is pretty strong but much weaker than any kage level shinobi.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama was cut in half by Jubito during their first engagement. He didn't compete.
> 
> Though I suppose you're right about Darui; The Brothers wouldn't have been able to keep going with those injuries had they been alive. Darui is pretty strong I hear though.


Kyuubi-Chakra Regen


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## Bonly (Apr 2, 2014)

Gin+Kinkaku were portrayed to get the better of Tobirama and their feats are looking decently nice so I can see them beating Tobi here.


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## ARGUS (Apr 2, 2014)

Kinkaku and Ginkaku win jus like they did in canon


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> He was cut in half so that he could tag Obito. He only stayed knowing he was an edo.



I don't see what being an Edo had to do with anything, considering the alternative was not engaging Jubito at all. That doesn't prove he can compete.



> Darui is pretty strong but much weaker than any kage level shinobi.



See my tier list for what I believe the power levels are. I classify Darui as "Lower Kage," and how I define that is basically people who can compete with Kage but are generally weaker than standard Kage level (Kakashi, all of the Gokage, Deidara, Sasori, etc.)


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't see what being an Edo had to do with anything, considering the alternative was not engaging Jubito at all. That doesn't prove he can compete.
> 
> 
> 
> See my tier list for what I believe the power levels are. I classify Darui as "Lower Kage," and how I define that is basically people who can compete with Kage but are generally weaker than standard Kage level (Kakashi, all of the Gokage, Deidara, Sasori, etc.)



Darui is not competing with any of the Kages. He's your typical Asuma level jounin level.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Darui is not competing with any of the Kages. He's your typical Asuma level jounin level.



He did very well against Kinkaku & Ginkaku, who are easily Kage level.


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He did very well against Kinkaku & Ginkaku, who are easily Kage level.



Or their just both low kage/jounin level. The fact that Kinkaku and Ginkaku could barely keep up with Darui indicates that they are not on Tobirama's level.


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## Rocky (Apr 2, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Or their just both low kage/jounin level. The fact that Kinkaku and Ginkaku could barely keep up with Darui indicates that they are not on Tobirama's level.



Yet they somehow nearly killed him.

HMMM.


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## Veracity (Apr 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Yet they somehow nearly killed him.
> 
> HMMM.



They ambushed him the first time with more knowledge on him then he had on them. 
The second time they had themselves + 18 elite Shinobi. 

But I agree that gin and kin are probably low- mid tiered Kage respectively. They are however more danglers in a no knowledge situation. Darui is simply a beast in CQC.


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## Trojan (Apr 2, 2014)

The sad thing about this match is Kin & Gin perhaps were so much better than Tobirama that they did
not even felt like using their Kurama's chakra. U_U

Because Gin with his brother defeated Tobirama


it does not seem right for him to talk in such away if he got his ass handled to him, does it? 

and according to Kakuzu Kin only uses his Kurama's chakra when someone defeats his brother apparently
unnoticeable


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> They ambushed him the first time with more knowledge on him then he had on them.



They staged a coup d'?tat, which isn't necessarily the same thing as an ambush. Furthermore, The Second Raikage was also there, so if anybody was advantaged in that battle, it was the two Kage.

I'm also curious as to how you came to the conclusion that they had knowledge on Tobirama...


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> They staged a coup d'?tat, which isn't necessarily the same thing as an ambush. Furthermore, The Second Raikage was also there, so if anybody was advantaged in that battle, it was the two Kage.
> 
> I'm also curious as to how you came to the conclusion that they had knowledge on Tobirama...



A coup is basically an ambush nontheless.

But if that's not enough for you then Ay directly says ambush; unnoticeable

The second Raikage is Featless and they both had zero knowledge on their opponents. Not to mention that ambushing someone usually implies that they did so with superior numbers.

Why he hell would a ninja purposely attempt to assassinates another ninja without prior knowledge.  That's completely  illogical. I can't even think of an instance in the manga where that happens. Especially if kin and gin were n ones that wanted to assassinate them. Even if they didn't have full knowledge on Tobirama(though it's guaranteed they had plenty) then they DEFINITELY had a shit ton of knowledge on the Raikage.

It's also to note that ambushing Tobirama implied he got injured before he could attack meaning he was basically already screwed over.


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2014)

unnoticeable

Even though Tobirama is a sensor and he should be able to sense them. @.@


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2014)

New Folder said:


> unnoticeable
> 
> Even though Tobirama is a sensor and he should be able to sense them. @.@



Being a sensor doesn't mean you are constantly sensing all the damn time.


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## StickaStick (Apr 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Being a sensor doesn't mean you are constantly sensing all the damn time.



Being in the business (shinobi) and position (hokage) that he was in maybe he should have been.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2014)

The Format said:


> Being in the business (shinobi) and position (hokage) that he was in maybe he should have been.



I don't see why he would ? He was signing a peace treaty with the Raikage . Nobody expected a surprise attack ....


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## Trojan (Apr 3, 2014)

Well, he was in another village, so surely he did not go there by himself without anyone as a body gourd for him
and acted as if he is in his own village. I don't think he's that stupid to do so.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Well, he was in another village, so surely he did not go there by himself without anyone as a body gourd for him
> and acted as if he is in his own village. I don't think he's that stupid to do so.



Plot induced stupidity . It's even happened to Tobirama recently. 

I see no reason to have his sending I while signing a peace treaty . Actually if anything  the only individual Tobirama could have feared would be the Raikage himself.


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## Tarot (Apr 3, 2014)

The details surrounding the Gin/Kin bros with Tobirama is really iffy and unclear.
What we know:
-The bros staged a coup against 2nd Hokage and Raikage
-Tobirama was killed by the Gin/Kin bros and 18-20 other elite jonin(whom could have had kage level shinobi as well)
What we don't know
-If the above 2 events are the same or different 
-If Tobirama was still using Edo Tensei despite banning it
-How the actual fight went down (one guy vs 20+ elite jonin isn't a fair fight.

The Gold and Silver bros seem very arrogant and belligerent. Even if Tobirama pushed them, they seem like the type to talk shit anyway. Not to mention, they had 18+ elite jonin backing them. Even the most skilled kage are gonna have a hard time fighting that onslaught.


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## joshhookway (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Yet they somehow nearly killed him.
> 
> HMMM.



and Sakura nearly killed Sasuke


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## TMD (Apr 3, 2014)

Gin & kin brothers get blitzed


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> and Sakura nearly killed Sasuke



Sauce was blind, and if IIRC, Naruto had to save Sakura, not Sasuke.


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## joshhookway (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sauce was blind, and if IIRC, Naruto had to save Sakura, not Sasuke.



Naruto had to save Sakura because she didn't have the heart to kill sasuke.

The point is Saskura could have killed Sasuke in an ambush, but Sasuke would destroy Sakura in any fight.


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