# Official Manga Complaints Thread



## Hiroshi (Mar 5, 2011)

Unhappy that your favourite character was killed?  Displeased by who is winning (or participating in) the current battle?  Can't get over a decision Kishimoto made?  Planning on quitting the manga?  Come here to discuss general complaints about the plot, direction, or writing of the manga.  All general complaint threads found in Library outside this thread will be merged.  Any specific discussion worthy grievances about the manga that have not been sufficiently addressed can still be placed in the Library main, and will remain there at the discretion of the section moderators.

No flaming, please.



			
				Jetstorm said:
			
		

> 1. *Anyone not coming to this thread to criticize can leave and not come back.* If you come in here to troll, flame, etc I will happily delete your posts, infract, and outright ban the serious/repeat offenders. I'm dead fucking serious.
> 
> 2. *Criticism=/=hatred.* Yes, there are those that DO hate the story now but do not lump everyone that has a problem with the story together.
> 
> ...


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## Trent (Mar 7, 2011)

There's not enough T & A. 

Without going up to Fairy Tail level (), a little fan service wouldn't damage the manga. 

Edit: I was about to add 
*Spoiler*: __ 



"woohoo, first" " 


then I remembered I actually hate seeing people post that. So I won't.


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## bearzerger (Mar 7, 2011)

The design of Naruto's Rikudou mode sucks. It's too white, there's just no shading, no contrast it looks like a human shaped void. It needs a more finished look.


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## nebojsaxfarseer (Mar 7, 2011)

i dont like the jumping from fight to fight, forget what was going on. Also dont like the kumo hype, or kick them out or more from every village


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## Trent (Mar 7, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> The design of Naruto's Rikudou mode sucks. It's too white, there's just no shading, no contrast it looks like a human shaped void. It needs a more finished look.



I especially dislike the whirlpool with the weird ugly tomoe-like tail thing on his belly.

It's good that there are markings on Naruto's body in RM but the ones Kishi came up with do not look cool at all.


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## Adagio (Mar 7, 2011)

I agree with the new look of the new mode, I also think that it completely voids the need for a new outfit for Naruto, which I'm sure many people were looking forward to. It just seems like lazyness on Kishimoto's part because it makes it easier to draw him.


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## bullsh3t (Mar 7, 2011)

I hate how deidara and sasori got trolled.


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## bearzerger (Mar 7, 2011)

Trent said:


> I especially dislike the whirlpool with the weird ugly tomoe-like tail thing on his belly.
> 
> It's good that there are markings on Naruto's body in RM but the ones Kishi came up with do not look cool at all.



true, sadly without those whirlpools and those strange black markings it would look even worse. My only hope is that Kishi will combine RM and SM and give him a new design instead of that crappy one.


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## dream (Mar 7, 2011)

I dislike how small of a part the other ninja villages played in Part 2 until now.  Before the TS I thought that the other villages would come into conflict with a weakened Konoha but that never happened.  Instead the story shifted from being about a boy who wanted to be the leader of a ninja village to a story about a boy wanting to "rescue" his friend and fight off people who want to capture him because of a demon he contains.

And that change, I feel,  was a big mistake.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 7, 2011)

Stick with one fight at a time. Showing so many at once, and leaving many of them off panel is really annoying. It would be much better if we saw Kakashi, Sakura, Lee and Gai vs The Seven Swordsmen, Ino-Shika-Cho vs Asuma, Choza vs Dan, Mifune vs Hanzo etc. as seperate matches taking up a number of chapters. Instead of seeing random cut scenes of the fight =/


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## CrazyAries (Mar 7, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> I dislike how small of a part the other ninja villages played in Part 2 until now.  Before the TS I thought that the other villages would come into conflict with a weakened Konoha but that never happened.  Instead the story shifted from being about a boy who wanted to be the leader of a ninja village to a story about a boy wanting to "rescue" his friend and fight off people who want to capture him because of a demon he contains.
> 
> And that change, I feel,  was a big mistake.



I do not like that shift, either.  For one thing, Naruto lost his narrative in more ways than one.  He put his goal to become Hokage on the sidelines because he could not save his  friend.  We did not see him on very many  productive missions on which he could travel to other villages.  Naruto was not getting stronger primarily to prepare for the role of leading Konohagakure, but to have a rematch with Sasuke.  This leads me to the issue of the power-scaling of this manga.

As Naruto is preparing to have that long-awaited showdown with Sasuke, the two have gotten exponentially stronger.  This narrowed down the number of characters that could conceivably hold their own against them and made other characters look largely irrelevant.  Kishimoto has to find excuses to keep Naruto out of the action and make a grand entrance in the end. Also, to what end are these two becoming so powerful?  Sure, both may very well face Madara, but what happens after the smoke clears?  There will be two powerful being left in the story with village-busting jutsus but no conceivable reason to use them.  Naruto will most likely avoid killing anyone, as well.

Also, as I said in the other complaints thread, the title of kage looks irrelevant, as well, due to Naruto's role as the destined child.  World peace is so much grander than the role of village leader.  Kishimoto drastically changed the scope in Part 2.


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## PuppetDoctor (Mar 7, 2011)

The manga is just not interesting to read right now and has become almost a chore. The whole war so far has been a huge disappointment. Seriously, I feel like I am watching an American cartoon (nothing against American cartoons). Its like this: 

For the next two weeks we have have a character you have never seen before battle this person you have never seen before. 

*Two weeks later* We will have this character come back who was from the beginning of Naruto fight this character until they are defeated. 

*Rinse and Repeat*

Its getting very tiresome and it feels like Kishimoto wants to draw out this manga longer than it needs to be. We all know the grand scheme of things and that Sasuke will eventually battle Naruto. 

Another, disappointment is that there is no deaths. Have a major character die off to make the suspense go up. Isn't that what a war is about? But even if a major character does die off I doubt I will believe they will stay dead after what happened at the end of the Pain arc. 

I just wish that these random battles would stop happening and its disappointing that once formidable opponents are now getting beaten up within two chapters. 

When I think back to when I most enjoyed Naruto it was during the Chunnin Exams and the battle between the 3rd Hokage and Orochimaru. What happened Kishimoto?


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## Judecious (Mar 7, 2011)

Manga needs Naruto and Sasuke back


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## C-Moon (Mar 7, 2011)

I hate Rikudou and every connection made to him.


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## Judecious (Mar 7, 2011)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> I hate Rikudou and every connection made to him.



He's not that bad but the freaking Juubi killed the story


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## Addy (Mar 7, 2011)

Addy's thread. part 2 



Judecious said:


> He's not that bad but the freaking Juubi killed the story



for some it took for him just being mentioned to ruin the story and for others is juubi.

im from the former.


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## Patrick (Mar 8, 2011)

i dislike that sasuke's EMS and naruto's rikudo mode both seem as small power ups.
RM should be stronger than KN8 but i feel like it is as stong as KN1.
EMS just restores sasuke's eyesight and an extra jutsu.

also the war arc should stop shifting. it seems so rushed. a better way to do this would be CE style. make the fights only 2-3 chapters, but atleast don't skip in the middle of the fight.


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## SaVaGe609 (Mar 8, 2011)

Sai vs Deidara would've been a badass fight. I've been anticipating it forever. They're fighting styles are parallels in quite a few ways. But instead, Kishi rushed through it and Sai showed us, as always, nothing new. Other than the drawing of the Benevolent Twins, which was cool, but the way they were used? Angry Sai has the ability to magically leap behind two high class ninja? Kishi should've put more effort into it. 

The most I can hope for is that we see the "sealing jutsus" Kakashi asked him to use, when we finally get back to that story.


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## Aleeight (Mar 9, 2011)

Judecious said:


> He's not that bad but the freaking Juubi killed the story



What really killed me was when it was mentioned that the Rikudou _made_ the moon in order to seal the Juubi in.


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## jux (Mar 9, 2011)

I dislike the power scaling that is know is used in Naruto. It's now more about haxx power ups then it is about stealth, tactic and deception that made the fights so charming back in Part 1. The impossible tip of Sasuke and Naruto's power skill just makes them all too exclusive to each other and Madara. There is no risk, and thus the climax of their fights are dampened.

The way Kishi has handled Part 2 has been disappointing overall. I don't mind the direction Part 1 took, to Sasuke leaving Konoha, but the way Kishimoto has handled the manga since then has been offputting. He should have written it in a way that had Sasuke action's challenge and change Naruto's idealistic world view and philosophy on the responsibility Hokage's took in the management of missing-nin/criminals that have become so due to being marginalized in a community fuelled by the villages (and thus the leader's) lack of care, rather then make Sasuke utterly impede on Naruto's path in becoming Hokage.


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## Raging Bird (Mar 9, 2011)

I hate how everyone in the manga is so dense, it reminds me sometimes of Natsuru from Kampfer a show you shouldn't watch.


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## Skywalker (Mar 9, 2011)

Kakashi isn't dense.


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## ovanz (Mar 10, 2011)

I dislike the wasted potencial of some characters in part II, the autor should've made better work with them, they were so much letdowns characters, example:

*1- Danzo as Hokage:* a Hokage that was ruthless and power hungry. A hokage who wanted sasuke death, who will put naruto in custody, and so many other things, all this elements could've create a civil war inside Konoha, maybe even naruto and co go rogue ninjas, and fighting to re-gain the village from the hands of Danzo, that will put naruto in a higher place for a hokage candidate. *What we got:* Danzo's reign was so short and he was killed several times thanks to Izanagi. 

*2- Pain:* he was in the beginning the mysterious Akatsuki leader, showing incredible jutsus and all, telling the akatsuki some sort of plan to control the world, even were theories that he was naruto's father or related to him at last (ok he is an uzumaki, that's just a clan or family name) He was incredible powerfull enough to make konoha a crater *What we got:* the leader we all saw, was just a puppet, the real one was a mayor letdown, crippled, anorexic and beated by a book, and worst, he revive all the people who he killed, people who he hate for years (konoha killed his parents), just by the words of some random kid he just meet. Oh and he himself was Madara's puppet.   

*3- Orochimaru's deffeat/seal:* He was the first mayor villain, he did a great damage to konoha, characters were afraid of him (kakashi, the guy from interrogation, to name a few) we waited for the fight between him and sasuke will be epic, *What we got:* a great villain, trolled so many times by sharingan.  

So i don't hate this characters, they were probably my favs characters, so i dislike how they potencial was wasted.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 10, 2011)

*I'm almost done with Naruto*

That had to be one of the worst chapters of the entire manga, the only thing that was even close to being interesting was seeing how Pein ended Hanzou but FFS, all these villains, all of them are getting trolled, why aren't any of the good guys dieing? What the fuck kind of war is this?

What's next? Sai reveals his expert hidden abilities and kills Madara?

It's now getting to the point of which where i'm almost begging one of my favorite characters like Kakashi to get slashed up into little pieces. At least ONE good guy has to die PLEASE, i don't care who it is, get one of team 8's guys to die, hell get all of them to die, just someone DIE please.


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## vjpowell (Mar 10, 2011)

I liked it. This is a Shounen where the good guys usually wins. No one is making you watch the series.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 10, 2011)

Lol I don't really care about rep, unless it's positive of course

Is it a too much to ask for just a little bit more drama? Everything is so predictable, with every new chapter, another bad guy gets trolled. The Zetsu's are all looking like fodder, Hanzou was fodder, The 2 brothers were fodder, the 7 swordsman are looking like fodder, Chiyo and Kimmimaro are dead certs to be fodder, Gaara's dad will no doubt be fodder, Asuma will completely dominate his old team but for some reason will get things turned on him and will no doubt be fodder etc


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## Megaharrison (Mar 10, 2011)

This desperation for death is pretty pathetic. If you want everybody to die read a different genre. In the OP war only 2 died and at the very end and in the Bleach war nobody died.


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## Haruhifan21 (Mar 10, 2011)

Well, OP does have a point.

Kishi seems to be twisting all scenarios too much to have the good guys win.

Just look how Mifune is pawning Hanzou, and Jiraiya respected him almost like he was invincible.


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## Aced (Mar 10, 2011)

I think there will be casualties later on the war, the war right now seems like it's just heating up we haven't really seen the big guns come out, but I agree about Hanzou getting trolled, he was hyped up to be a beast yet he gets owned in 1 chapter by a dude that I thought was fodder.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 10, 2011)

rainyrabbit said:


> Well, OP does have a point.
> 
> Kishi seems to be twisting all scenarios too much to have the good guys win.
> 
> Just look how Mifune is pawning Hanzou, and Jiraiya respected him almost like he was invincible.



That's the other thing, all this tier power-scaling from everything we've read has been totally farked, some of the most revered guys we've read about, getting absolutely trolled by almost anyone? I mean I can understand how Darui was able to at least hold his own against the brothers but Mifune being able to effortlessly destroy Hanzou? Fucking Mifune? The guy that dropped his balls when he saw Sasuke in the flesh? 

Yes we know Jiraiya, Oro and Tsunade were young, this and that, and that it was a long time ago, but fucking Mifune? You've got to be kidding that shit is just wrooooooong! It looked like it was going to be one amazing war but it's been a complete disappointment so far at how uncompetitive the bad guys have been.

As a Shounen i do not expect the bad guys to win, and I also do not expect most of the good guys to die, but what I do expect is something competitive, not a fucking walk-about! So far only 2 good guys of any half-decent sort of meaning have died and thousands of fodder.


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## Rakiyo (Mar 10, 2011)

sounds like your complaining more for the lack of death then the actual chapter


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## Sounday (Mar 10, 2011)

Tsuchikage (mid-war) and/or Raikage (end-war) will probably die.


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## Nfpsouljah (Mar 10, 2011)

Rakiyo said:


> sounds like your complaining more for the lack of death then the actual chapter



Yeah probably, but this chapter was just one of a broader issue that has been almost all of the chapters


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## Rakiyo (Mar 10, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> Yeah probably, but this chapter was just one of a broader issue that has been almost all of the chapters



Really? I felt differently imo the worst was the whole Kinkaku Ginkaku thing with the horrible kyuubi chakra filler like power, It seemed to be more style then substance. I really loved this chapter it felt more of the old pt 1 style in terms of power levels and story telling not to mention the beast page spread with mifune at the end


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## ashher (Mar 10, 2011)

Look at the war this way... You remember the demon of mist zabuza...he killed no named character, even though they were GENINS. The chunin exams...where anybody could die? Nobody did except some fodder. Sound invasion...only one named guy died, even though it was an attack to 'crush' the leaf. Retrieve sasuke...the first S class mission led by a new chunin, who estimated he needs two junins and a chunin, instead got only genins. Did anybody die? Nah. Don't expect to this trend to change.


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## Reddan (Mar 10, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> Lol I don't really care about rep, unless it's positive of course
> 
> Is it a too much to ask for just a little bit more drama? Everything is so predictable, with every new chapter, another bad guy gets trolled. The Zetsu's are all looking like fodder, Hanzou was fodder, The 2 brothers were fodder, the 7 swordsman are looking like fodder, Chiyo and Kimmimaro are dead certs to be fodder, Gaara's dad will no doubt be fodder, Asuma will completely dominate his old team but for some reason will get things turned on him and will no doubt be fodder etc



Give Kishimoto some time. Judge the war when it is over. Remember the Phony War? It takes time for things to build up. If the war ends and no one dies then is the time to vent your frustration and criticise Kishimoto.

I hope and believe Kishimoto has the courage to carry out all the deaths he hinted: the story demands it, Nagato's words must come true.

*War inflicts death...injury and pain to both sides...The more precious someone is to you, the harder it is to accept they might die... In fact you convince yourself there is no way they could die.....It especially can't be helped with your generation who don't know war. And you might try to find meaning in death....But all there is ...is pain...unbearable hatred...wasteful death....eternal hatred... and pain that does not heal... that's what war is AND THOSE ARE THE THINGS YOU WILL FACE IN THE COMING DAYS NARUTO*

After such a build up to this coming war, I think he will deliver.


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## Saunion (Mar 10, 2011)

If you didn't understand with the Pain arc that no one is going to die except maybe (and that's a big maybe) old mentor figures like Tsunade, then it's your loss.

That being said, that chapter was indeed lame.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 10, 2011)

Expect few people to die. Some will be recurrent characters and other important ones, i.e. the current Kages and probably some senseis/fathers.

This isn't that uncommon in comic/manga wars, the casualties are always few.


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## Egotism (Mar 10, 2011)

Onoki's death is almost a given so you have one there. Um, other than that I can't think of any one else. Eh, if Oro was in charge of this war we would have some deaths


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## falsepod (Mar 10, 2011)

*This war arc is getting stupid now.*

We have:

Kakashi vs The Seven Swordsman
Gaara and Onoki vs Previous Kages
Darui vs Kakuzu
Chouza vs Dan
Hiashi vs Hizashi
Ino Shika Chou vs Asuma
Kimmimaro vs Samurai
and now Kishi's added Mifune vs Hanzou?

Not to mention there's Naruto's training going on, Sasuke with his new eyes and Zetsu going after the Daimyo's?

Kishi has branched himself way to thin and yet he just isn't stopping. I havn't checked but i'm pretty sure its something like 10 weeks since we saw Kakashi now.

Anyone else think he needs to slow down and actually develop whats happening?


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## Pseudo (Mar 10, 2011)

Kishi can't please you guys at all. You guys complain the the fights were long and drawn out drawn out. I understand what you're saying though, and I think he's saving the development for all the big fights.


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## GangWarlord (Mar 10, 2011)

I thought this chapter was actually awesome, and a breath of fresh air. I mean, in this series dominated by ninja, the samurai got trolled to Hell and back every time they appeared... Until now. It's nice to finally see the underdog do something cool, even if Zombie Hanzo hasn't really been defeated (which I don't believe he has, 'cause the zombies can regenerate and all that).


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## falsepod (Mar 10, 2011)

ThePsuedo said:


> Kishi can't please you guys at all. You guys complain the the fights were long and drawn out drawn out. I understand what you're saying though, and I think he's saving the development for all the big fights.



your saying "you guys" like i'm not a single person whose posted a thread. I don't mind long drawn out fights at all. What I don't like is having no focus though. He's jumping around way too much and leaving shit loads of stuff unfinished which means when you finally return to it it won't be as potent as it was when it actually started.


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## corsair (Mar 10, 2011)

Only _now_?


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## _Chiyo_ (Mar 10, 2011)

THIS IS WAR!!


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## takL (Mar 10, 2011)

tyhe former kages, the former jins and itach and pain...the stronger zombies are waiting.
im all for the good guys but things arent so rosy for them.


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## gabzilla (Mar 10, 2011)

They would get revived anyway.



Nfpsouljah said:


> That had to be one of the worst chapters of the entire manga, the only thing that was even close to being interesting was seeing how Pein ended Hanzou but FFS, all these villains, all of them are getting trolled, why aren't any of the good guys dieing? What the fuck kind of war is this?
> 
> What's next? Sai reveals his expert hidden abilities and kills Madara?
> 
> It's now getting to the point of which where i'm almost begging one of my favorite characters like Kakashi to get slashed up into little pieces. At least ONE good guy has to die PLEASE, i don't care who it is, get *one of team 8's guy*s to die, hell get all of them to die, just someone DIE please.


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## Kage (Mar 10, 2011)

looks like you have not made peace with the fact kishi rarely deems casualties necessary.

i should pity you but i don't.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 10, 2011)

Its called building anticipation...and suspense to come degree.


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## gabzilla (Mar 10, 2011)

Getting?

It hasn't felt like a real war since day one.


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## Pseudo (Mar 10, 2011)

falsepod said:


> your saying "you guys" like i'm not a single person whose posted a thread. I don't mind long drawn out fights at all. What I don't like is having no focus though. He's jumping around way too much and leaving shit loads of stuff unfinished which means when you finally return to it it won't be as potent as it was when it actually started.



I said "you guys" because I've seen a lot of folks complain that Kishi's fights are too long, so now I'm surprised to see complaining once more, and don't get me wrong I agree with you on what you said about these fights.


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## FearTear (Mar 10, 2011)

There are dead bodies everywhere, ok they're all fodders but better then nothing


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## HInch (Mar 10, 2011)

The lack of an extended, brutal and graphic torture/rape scene makes me question Kishi's commitment to cater for a non-target audience who read the manga via the internet in foreign countries.

Kishimoto, please stop trying to comply with Shounen tradition whilst also targeting your audience of children. I, as a foreign male who should probably stop reading cartoons, demand to see a graphic portrayal of Sakura being beheaded in front of the allied forces. 

Wait, actually I'd like to see Sakura beheaded. Scrap this post, kill Sakura.


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## WorstUsernameEver (Mar 10, 2011)

HInch said:


> The lack of an extended, brutal and graphic torture/rape scene makes me question Kishi's commitment to cater for a non-target audience who read the manga via the internet in foreign countries.
> 
> Kishimoto, please stop trying to comply with Shounen tradition whilst also targeting your audience of children. I, as a foreign male who should probably stop reading cartoons, demand to see a graphic portrayal of Sakura being beheaded in front of the allied forces.
> 
> Wait, actually I'd like to see Sakura beheaded. Scrap this post, kill Sakura.



lol 10/10 post

And to the TC, see you next week


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## Psi Factor (Mar 10, 2011)

arednad said:


> I hope and believe Kishimoto has the courage to carry out all the deaths he hinted: the story demands it, Nagato's words must come true.



hmm...arednad, which good character you see dying apart from the given Bee and maybe Tsukage? And how do you see this war will playing out in terms of matchups?


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## Dolohov27 (Mar 10, 2011)

Then when people do die you would still complain about your favorite character being killed off. There really is just no pleasing some people.


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## Killer Zylos Wolf (Mar 10, 2011)

Something being "stupid" is nothing but an opinion, as such the war isn't stupid. People like different things and that's all.

I see nothing stupid about this war.

This arc is going to be long, very long. Kishi obviously doesn't want to focus on just one thing at a time, and I think it's good he doesn't.


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## Skeith (Mar 10, 2011)

People complain that the fight were too draw out and never focus on the side characters.


People complain that the fight are too thin out and don't care about these character and just want Naruto/Sasuke/Itachi/Nagato fight.

And I'm complaining about people complaining about this. 


*WHEN WILL IT END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## sadino (Mar 10, 2011)

Actually if you just had some sense there was a lot of drama with Haku+Zabuza already,why u think Kakashi got pissed anyways?

Good chances for deaths, imo: Oonoki,A,Bee,Lee/Gai(8th gate),Kiba/Akamaru,Inoichi,Ao,Shikaku,Mabui.

Yeah the guys on the inteligence division will probably be attacked by Itachi/Nagato or the Jins,so they're pretty screwed.Can't imagine a better turn around on this war than that,since the inteligence division is responsible for all the alliances victories so far.


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## Reddan (Mar 10, 2011)

Psi Factor said:


> hmm...arednad, which good character you see dying apart from the given Bee and maybe Tsukage? And how do you see this war will playing out in terms of matchups?



I think Gai will die, because we have to see the 8 gates. I am not sure, who will be the person worthy to push him to the 8th gate, but if Mangetsu is stronger than Kisame it could be him. After all he already is Gai's worst match up.

I think Tsunade will die by the hands of Kabuto or Madara.

I can see Mifune dying too. In addition Shikaku and Inoichi may go as well.

In an ideal world I would take out more, but I think the deaths of Gai, Tsunade, Ohnoki, Mifune, Shikaku, Bee and Inoichi are enough to drive the point hom.


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## Ninamori Espeon (Mar 10, 2011)

_Chiyo_ said:


> THIS IS WAR!!



War?!? This Is NARUTO!!!


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## takL (Mar 10, 2011)

among the naruto's friends im guessing kiba better worry bout his ass.  for making a bold statement.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Mar 10, 2011)

Complain all you want, Kishimoto doesn't pay attention to our rants. He pays attention to his editor's assessment and the Japanese readers' votes of Shonen Jump manga chapter ranking.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 10, 2011)

You gotta understand that a war would be very hard to show and get the feel of since...well...its a manga. You just got pictures and something called main characters which need to be focused on. What you wanna see? pics of the opposing side running into oneanother in a big clash? Even military(real world) wars are extremely slow and last for YEARS. IMO, I just think you guys have the wrong interpretation of what a war should be like. Just sayin


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## BrokenBonds (Mar 10, 2011)

... It wouldn't be a war if he focused on one thing at a time, everyone is fighting, everything is happening.

War = Amazing.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 10, 2011)

falsepod said:


> i'm pretty sure its something like 10 weeks since we saw Kakashi now.


7 =/= 10 weeks


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## JiraiyaTheGallant (Mar 10, 2011)

Oh stop your bitching, OP. Some deaths have already been foreshadowed such as Gai, Onoki and Killerbee. You just have to wait for it, and if you can't, drop this like you dropped Bleach.


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## Ninamori Espeon (Mar 10, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> That had to be one of the worst chapters of the entire manga, the only thing that was even close to being interesting was seeing how Pein ended Hanzou but FFS, all these villains, all of them are getting trolled, why aren't any of the good guys dieing? What the fuck kind of war is this?
> 
> What's next? Sai reveals his expert hidden abilities and kills Madara?
> 
> It's now getting to the point of which where i'm almost begging one of my favorite characters like Kakashi to get slashed up into little pieces. At least ONE good guy has to die PLEASE, i don't care who it is, get one of team 8's guys to die, hell get all of them to die, just someone DIE please.



True, this whole war is just one BIG! fail.
This manga did some serious stuff to hype up all these bad guys, and then they just get pwned like there's nothing to it.

And I hate how they're trying to make all this stuff and symbolism that they keep talking about seem important, and as if they have been talking about it since the beginning, and are now explaining and resolving it.
Like the "gold, silver, and copper" and "the ninja and samurai thing" or "the whole swords being sharp and like people thing or w/e" I mean like honestly! none of this stuff matters, it's like a filler.


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## jacamo (Mar 10, 2011)

its barely getting started!!!


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## Psi Factor (Mar 10, 2011)

arednad said:


> I think Gai will die, because we have to see the 8 gates. I am not sure, who will be the person worthy to push him to the 8th gate, but if Mangetsu is stronger than Kisame it could be him. After all he already is Gai's worst match up.
> 
> I think Tsunade will die by the hands of Kabuto or Madara.
> 
> ...



These deaths actually will be more than enough...Gai's death is an interesting thought 

Dunno about Shikaku as Shika has had his growth through Asmua's death already; and Tsunade who I think will matchup against Itachi and as with other poor zombie will come at top (it is a horrible thought tho', having Itachi defeated by Tsunade ). Besides Tsunade needs to live to see Naruto becoming Hokage I think, as she wished for Dan and her brother. 

We'll see, your optimistic attitude has given me some hope tbh, otherwise the war situation is too rosy right now to expect substantial tragedies at the horeo's side as well.


----------



## lathia (Mar 10, 2011)

I don't know about you guys, but I welcome all this rushed writting. I don't want to be 30 odd years old and the manga still hasn't come to resolution. With that, I praise Kishi for making all these wannabe "villains" look like utter crap. 

I personally want to see the characters with a more important role get back on panel. Madara, Naruto, Sasuke, Kabuto, Juubi, RS, and whoever else the future might reveal. It's too bad it can't be rushed anymore. Now that is something I would really be happy about.


----------



## Ninamori Espeon (Mar 10, 2011)

This war is getting really stupid and pointless.

They hyped up all these villains/heroes who were supposed to be well known _legends!_ and then when these _legends_ fight, they just get crapped on.

Kishi wasted his time hyping up these losers.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Mar 10, 2011)

Aside from death, some kind of adversity would be good. The OP isn't so much complaining about the lack of death but rather that this is supposed to be a war yet everything seems to be going easily and smoothly. All plans work out, all opponents get defeated or even talked into being defeated, and all of that in a shorter time than it took a few genin to write a written exam.

That's not a war but rather it's trolling the once so hyped enemies.


----------



## HInch (Mar 10, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> leave if you're just gonna QQ



Haven't seen that in a while, and I'm reppin' because I like it.


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Mar 10, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> That had to be one of the worst chapters of the entire manga, the only thing that was even close to being interesting was seeing how Pein ended Hanzou but FFS, all these villains, all of them are getting trolled, why aren't any of the good guys dieing? What the fuck kind of war is this?
> 
> What's next? Sai reveals his expert hidden abilities and kills Madara?
> 
> It's now getting to the point of which where i'm almost begging one of my favorite characters like Kakashi to get slashed up into little pieces. At least ONE good guy has to die PLEASE, i don't care who it is, get one of team 8's guys to die, hell get all of them to die, just someone DIE please.



I liked it. I saw nothing wrong.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 10, 2011)

NEWS FLASH: entire war arc is filler + fanservice, till sasuke and naruto begin moving..


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## Arsecynic (Mar 10, 2011)

Ninamori Espeon said:


> This war is getting really stupid and pointless.
> 
> They hyped up all these villains/heroes who were supposed to be well known _legends!_ and then when these _legends_ fight, they just get crapped on.
> 
> Kishi wasted his time hyping up these losers.



This is the only thing that's bugging me atm. Kin/Gin got all that hype and got shat on so easily. Apart from that I'm finding the arc ok.


----------



## Hated Uchiha (Mar 10, 2011)

all this fighting is boring to you guys? i think its boring when chapters come out with no fighting. its been non stop action. this war wont get the recognition it deserves until its animated an the manga has gon back to talkin out differences


----------



## jacamo (Mar 10, 2011)

Hated Uchiha said:


> all this fighting is boring to you guys? i think its boring when chapters come out with no fighting. its been non stop action. this war wont get the recognition it deserves until its animated an the manga has gon back to talkin out differences




precisely.... non stop action and its only just started


----------



## VlAzGuLn (Mar 10, 2011)

Khris said:


> NEWS FLASH: entire war arc is filler + fanservice, till sasuke and naruto begin moving..



or kakashi's rampage


----------



## truetomyself (Mar 10, 2011)

Ninamori Espeon said:


> This war is getting really stupid and pointless.
> They hyped up all these villains/heroes who were supposed to be well known _legends!_ and then when these _legends_ fight, they just get crapped on.
> Kishi wasted his time hyping up these losers.



The whole Edo Tensei thing is stupid and pointless.
The war could've been much more interesting if it was just Akatsuki (with the addition of some new members/accomplices) vs Allied Shinobi Forces.


----------



## Addy (Mar 10, 2011)

now it's boring?

really? it took you this long to realize that? 

the only part i am taking any joy of is in some good diologue.


----------



## Skeith (Mar 10, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Aside from death, some kind of adversity would be good. *The OP isn't so much complaining about the lack of death but rather that this is supposed to be a war yet everything seems to be going easily and smoothly. *All plans work out, all opponents get defeated or even talked into being defeated, and all of that in a shorter time than it took a few genin to write a written exam.
> 
> That's not a war but rather it's trolling the once so hyped enemies.



Except for the first few pages of every chapter showing all the dead Zetsu and allies Ninjas.


----------



## Undertaker (Mar 10, 2011)

I agree.

To die list:
Ino, Sakura, Hinata, Kiba, Chouji, Lee, Neji, their parents, Gai, Kakashi, Gaara, Anko, Shizune, etc.

TenTen should live, she is cool.


----------



## Ninamori Espeon (Mar 10, 2011)

kids said:


> The whole Edo Tensei thing is stupid and pointless.
> The war could've been much more interesting if it was just Akatsuki (with the addition of some new members/accomplices) vs Allied Shinobi Forces.



Yeah I would probably prefer this, 
because they did all that hyping on the characters who were brought back to life and they're not doing anything but just dying again. 
I was seriously expecting some damage from them. But yet again I am seriously disappointed.


----------



## Hitt (Mar 10, 2011)

Why are people STILL surprised at all this lack of death on the good guys' side?

HELLO!  Pain arc!

Should've removed any doubts anyone would've had about how this manga is going to go.

There are plenty of other mangas, especially seinnen, which feature plenty of people dying...in general.  If you're expecting that here, this is just not your cup of tea.


----------



## Tengu (Mar 10, 2011)

Don't worry Itachi's time will come.


----------



## falsepod (Mar 10, 2011)

i think most of you are totally missing the point of my OP. my argument is that theres no focus atm because nothing is being adequately developed.


----------



## CCV (Mar 10, 2011)

Ninamori Espeon said:


> This war is getting really stupid and pointless.
> 
> They hyped up all these villains/heroes who were supposed to be well known _legends!_ and then when these _legends_ fight, they just get crapped on.
> 
> Kishi wasted his time hyping up these losers.



I guess you missed the memo that new legends replacing the old ones was the theme of the story.


----------



## Cursed Avenger (Mar 10, 2011)

ashher said:


> Look at the war this way... You remember the demon of mist zabuza...he killed no named character, even though they were GENINS. The chunin exams...where anybody could die? Nobody did except some fodder. Sound invasion...only one named guy died, even though it was an attack to 'crush' the leaf. Retrieve sasuke...the first S class mission led by a new chunin, who estimated he needs two junins and a chunin, instead got only genins. Did anybody die? Nah. Don't expect to this trend to change.


 
Sarutobi, Asuma, Jiraiya, Itachi, Nagato, Konan....the trend was like that back in part one but it's changed in part two. The current trend is having people die for the plot.


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Mar 10, 2011)

kids said:


> The whole Edo Tensei thing is stupid and pointless.
> The war could've been much more interesting if it was just Akatsuki (with the addition of some new members/accomplices) vs Allied Shinobi Forces.



Then we would be left with a bunch of unfinished things. We'd never know about the whole Seven Swordsmen Of The Mist. We'd never see the people responsible for the death of Tobirama. We'd never get any kind of development for anyone. It would just fall apart and have more complaints then there is now.

Akatsuki alone(Even with some new members) wouldn't have been able to handle the alliance.

It's not stupid(Since something being stupid is nothing but opinions) and it's not pointless since it clearly shows things so many wanted to see, and gives development to characters who haven't gotten it yet.


----------



## 8 (Mar 10, 2011)

OP don't fool yourself. we all know your gonna stick with it till the end. :ho


----------



## 9TalesOfDestruction (Mar 10, 2011)

Yeah, this manga has been making less and less sense ever since the first "magical" weapon was introduced.  All these random characters and back stories i've never known or cared to know about popping up.  Is kishimoto still writing this thing?  or did it get passed on to someone else, cause this doesn't even seem like the same manga anymore.

Seems like they saw the war in one piece and said "hey thats' a good idea lets do something like that"  without any regard to the plot or the characters.  After 9 years of reading this manga it's like they are just shitting on it trying to milk some more chapters out of it.  Just completely shitting on established characters to introduce random new characters that nobody cares about simultaneously turning the plot into a convoluted mess.

I used to criticize people who said the manga sucked, but still read it every week.  but now that it's been damn near a decade of reading i'm in the same boat as them. smh


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 10, 2011)

Ninamori Espeon said:


> Yeah I would probably prefer this,
> because they did all that hyping on the characters who were brought back to life and they're not doing anything but just dying again.
> I was seriously expecting some damage from them. But yet again I am seriously disappointed.



Lower your damn expectations. Everyone who has been captured were captured legitly and sensibly according to the story. They all had their powers. Living or Edo the good guys always killed the bad guys no matter how much "hype" they got (Pain), whats so bad now? And whos been dying? Zabuza and the twins? That alone and u guys are saying the badside is getting trampled? LOL. Like some sensible people have been saying, ITS ONLY STARTED.


----------



## Judecious (Mar 10, 2011)

kages will die


----------



## HolyHands (Mar 10, 2011)

Skeith said:


> Except for the first few pages of every chapter showing all the dead Zetsu and allies Ninjas.



Yes, because we're totally going to care about nameless, faceless cannon fodder dying.


----------



## Deleted member 175252 (Mar 10, 2011)

it is pretty annoying when the good guys seem to win all the time 

but i guess its still early days, i mean i can see ninja's that weve already seen alot of dying quickly but to see people like hanzo and the kin/gin bros getting beaten so quickly is pretty trollish i guess


----------



## 8 (Mar 10, 2011)

HolyHands said:


> Yes, because we're totally going to care about nameless, faceless cannon fodder dying.


especially when they are already dead to begin with.


----------



## LMJ (Mar 10, 2011)

gabzilla said:


> Getting?
> 
> It hasn't felt like a real war since day one.




wtf?

/10chars


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm loving this arc, there are only certain aspects of it that I don't like.

Pros: 
+Seeing secondary characters in the limelight after being neglected for so long.
+Learning more about the world and history of the Narutoverse.
+Seeing legends of the Narutoverse that aren't from Konoha or Akatsuki.
+Seeing new jutsus and abilities.
+Powerscales look more balanced. 

Cons:
-The fights seem a little too "convenient." 
-Characters aren't getting to show everything they can do.
-Too many things we want to see happen.


----------



## Deleted member 175252 (Mar 10, 2011)

8 said:


> especially when they are already dead to begin with.



hehehe


----------



## LMJ (Mar 10, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I'm loving this arc, there are only certain aspects of it that I don't like.
> 
> Pros:
> +Seeing secondary characters in the limelight after being neglected for so long.
> ...



I agree with you, although I dont mind the convenient encounters, they seem fitting to each other and not out of place when they match up.


----------



## Agony (Mar 10, 2011)

i totally agree with OP.kishi fucking the manga up.he cant just let the alliance go raping around akatsuki and edo tensei's.it's not even WAR.it's a mother fucking alliance massacre day.


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## zlatko (Mar 10, 2011)

Ok when they wher reserected it was so cool now it's borin people cant understand you and as i dont know who said it's WAR so there must be a lot of fights in world war 2 there war like 60 countries fighting and here you have 6 peoples and you complain the only bad thing is that i miss naruto i couldnt imagin to miss him but now i do ftw


----------



## Saunion (Mar 10, 2011)

The problem with this war is that it feels like Kishi is trying to adress the complaints about his lack of backstory and worldbuilding as well as the way he ignored side characters, but it's done in such a way that it feels shallow and mostly "too little too late".


----------



## Agony (Mar 10, 2011)

i think how's he scheduling the fights are fine with me but how he ends the fight,is not so pleasing to me.


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## GunX2 (Mar 10, 2011)

Haterz gonna hate.


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## goldendriger (Mar 10, 2011)

But lets reverse it, lets say it was Kakashi vs swordsmen, then it moves to Gaara.
People would be "Why not send everyone after Kakashi, they're not doing anything PLOTHOLE!" and "OMG Zetsus are so slow"
I think he's being smart, Kakashi has to show off 1,000 Jutsu, he now has weeks to think of good ones without people complaining that theres no action, and he can skip back and forth as he pleases.


----------



## Mind of the North Star (Mar 10, 2011)

Yeah I use to see these threads and be like "LOLUMAD?.gif" .....but man....I understand to a point. It really doesn't make any sense as to why there is no true struggle in this war yet. 

I have said in previous post that these Edos, all of them, are here for two things: Showcasing and Getting Trolled. This it. End of story. However, the execution of this is just crazy. So Hanzo, the guy who SCHOOLED the Sannin and was believed to be unbeatable by any one *man*( whether the man is a ninja, samurai, serial rapist, wizard, son of God) just said "Fuck it, I don't care anymore"? *That* is what weaken him to the point where he could lose to a guy with a sword who can't even do a shunshin? 

And I am not even trying to shit on Mifune here. I would react the same way if one of my favorite characters beat Hanzo so easily. With that said, I am no where need done with this ridiculous manga  . It's still highly entertaining. Nothings perfect


----------



## Saunion (Mar 10, 2011)

As I said in the Telegrams, I think this war arc is really bad.

Basically it feels like Kishimoto is aware of the complaints about how his world feels fake and shallow, how there's no backstory and no worldbuilding, how his side characters are constantly ignored, so he tries to adress this.

Problem: as he stopped caring ages ago, he's just going through the motions and the end result is terrible. 

Like these few chapters with the Kin/Gin brothers fighting Darui. Not only is the backstory absolutely idiotic (they got eaten by Kyuubi, lived inside him like Gepetto inside of the whale and when the monster finally pooped them out they had Kyuubi chakra hurr hurr, it sounds like a childish fairytale that's completely at odds with the more serious tone Kishimoto would like to instil into his work), but the way Kishimoto forcefully linked them to the Sage of the Six Paths felt really awkward.

It was only an arc ago Kakashi, who isn't some random ignorant civilian, said the Sage was a myth, that there was no real proof he existed, and that Rinnegan was a "mutation": and now you have the Raikage casually talking about the Sage's legendary weapons Kumo had all this time. Far from making the world more tangible and consistent, it actually reminds the readers the author retcons things constantly and has no firm grasp on his story nor a clear vision of his universe.

Then there's the problem of Darui and the other Kumo characters showcased in these chapters. There's simply no implication from the readers here: no emotional bond whatsoever with extremely caricatural characters (the hot blooded guy called "Hot" whose favorite word is "hot" and his cool headed sister named "Cold" who likes to say "cool") who are introduced and defeated in a single chapter. Who will remember these guys in 6 months? There's simply no reason for anyone to care about Darui, except if you're a fickle internet fanboy who just wants to attach himself to the flavor of the week character who just showed a flashy jutsu.

On the other hand, there are reasons for the readers to be emotionally involved with the Konoha rookies. Most of the appeal of the Naruto manga in part 1 was the promise to see flawed young ninjas develop into honorable men and women. Yet here again this war is severely lacking, because most of them have been shelved for hundreds of chapters, and so everything they do now can only be described as the epitome of "too little too late". Team 10 is the perfect example: their victory over a second rate Jinchuuriki was so anticlimatic and dull that it felt like Kishimoto was telling us "there's a reason why I don't use these guys, because they're fucking boring!".

So that's my two cents. God knows I've complained about the ridiculous focus on Sasuke and wanted to see something else for a change, but now I realize that I was wrong, because the damage was done as early as during the Valley of the End fight: there was no reason to hope for anything else than a Sasuke centric story, I should have realized it and stopped wishing for Kishimoto to expand on other aspects of his world, because he's blatantly unable to write about anything else than his Uchiha darling and his lunatic avenger's adventures.


----------



## Odlam (Mar 10, 2011)

It's not the lack of death, it's the lack of tension - it's not that the good guys can't die, it's that they can't lose or even be hurt seriously. And I'm not talking about losing the total war, but they aren't even losing the skirmishes. It's like they've all got invisible deflector shields on.

We had the Deidara/Sasori, alliance wins easily
We had Kin/Gin, alliance wins easily
We had Hanzou, alliance wins easily

I'm not feeling any tension so far. And this is supposed to be a world war.


----------



## Omoi0714 (Mar 10, 2011)

People need to calm down and wait a little longer, authors don't just start out with tension right away.

I also don't understand why people are getting upset that Mifune beasted Hanzo. The two had a clash and Mifune won. The battle isn't over though, Hanzo has yet to be sealed. I also remember someone saying how they were let down by Hanzo but honestly Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunade didn't have gas masks when they fought Hanzo and the fact that they lasted so long and didn't die is testament to their strength. IMO

 In my opinion there are two ways kishi can go from this point of the war: One is in the direction tite went (god no, i'll stop reading), and two is the way Oda went (please and thank you). I'm sure that something is going to happen and the tide of the battle will shift completely in the opposite direction.


----------



## nadinkrah (Mar 10, 2011)

why do people get so butt hurt when someone rants about a chapter?


----------



## gabzilla (Mar 10, 2011)

Odlam said:


> It's not the lack of death, it's the lack of tension - it's not that the good guys can't die, it's that they can't lose or even be hurt seriously. And I'm not talking about losing the total war, but they aren't even losing the skirmishes. It's like they've all got invisible deflector shields on.
> 
> We had the Deidara/Sasori, alliance wins easily
> We had Kin/Gin, alliance wins easily
> ...



Basically.

There's no sense of danger


----------



## truetomyself (Mar 10, 2011)

Killer Zylos Wolf said:


> Then we would be left with a bunch of unfinished things. We'd never know about the whole Seven Swordsmen Of The Mist. We'd never see the people responsible for the death of Tobirama. We'd never get any kind of development for anyone. It would just fall apart and have more complaints then there is now.
> 
> Akatsuki alone(Even with some new members) wouldn't have been able to handle the alliance.
> 
> It's not stupid(Since something being stupid is nothing but opinions) and it's not pointless since it clearly shows things so many wanted to see, and gives development to characters who haven't gotten it yet.



You have a point. But then again - what's the point of seeing all those legendary people if they're being treated like fodder? 

And i've got nothing against development... But there would've been much more of it if Kishi came up with some decent (and alive) enemies e.g. Pain. All it takes is just one good enemy. You don't even need 100000 white zetsus. 

I'm starting to think that Madara's real plan is to bore manga readers to death.


----------



## HawkMan (Mar 10, 2011)

You people never learn. Go ahead and stop, so we don't have to put up with your incessant bitch-fest. 

Your fucking whining does absofuckinglutely nothing to affect/change the story. Nothing. If you don't like it, move on. If it's not for you, move on.


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 10, 2011)

Omoi0714 said:


> People need to calm down and wait a little longer, authors don't just start out with tension right away.
> 
> I also don't understand why people are getting upset that Mifune beasted Hanzo. The two had a clash and Mifune won. *The battle isn't over though, Hanzo has yet to be sealed.* I also remember someone saying how they were let down by Hanzo but honestly Jiraiya, Oro, and Tsunade didn't have gas masks when they fought Hanzo and the fact that they lasted so long and didn't die is testament to their strength. IMO
> 
> In my opinion there are two ways kishi can go from this point of the war: One is in the direction tite went (god no, i'll stop reading), and two is the way Oda went (please and thank you). I'm sure that something is going to happen and the tide of the battle will shift completely in the opposite direction.



People, just this. The fight isn't even over yet with Hanzou. He got damaged, but he's an Edo Tensei. He can heal from that shit easily. He might be just getting warmed up. 

These complaints are getting stupid. How many chapters has it been since the war started? Maybe a dozen? I don't know how many times I have to say this: THIS IS ONLY THE BEGINNING! We still haven't seen the real high tier Edo Tensei yet - that includes the old Kages, Jinchuurikis, Itachi, Nagato, and possibly even the bijuu themselves. The allies are doing good in the beginning, but things will start to go south when the real villain powerhouses step forward. 

Also, look at the Sound Invasion/Chuunin Exam War. How many named good guy characters actually died in that? I think it was only the Third Hokage. Every other scene we see with the Konoha villagers fighting - Shikaku, Chouza, Hiashi, Gai, Asuma, etc - has them utterly dominating their foes. And yet it was also said that the Leaf Village lost up to HALF its strength. Where were the complaints then?



Mind of the North Star said:


> Yeah I use to see these threads and be like "LOLUMAD?.gif" .....but man....I understand to a point. It really doesn't make any sense as to why there is no true struggle in this war yet.
> 
> I have said in previous post that these Edos, all of them, are here for two things: Showcasing and Getting Trolled. This it. End of story. However, the execution of this is just crazy. So Hanzo, the guy who SCHOOLED the Sannin and was believed to be unbeatable by any one *man*( whether the man is a ninja, samurai, serial rapist, wizard, son of God) just said "Fuck it, I don't care anymore"? *That* is what weaken him to the point where he could lose to a guy with a sword who can't even do a shunshin?
> 
> And I am not even trying to shit on Mifune here. I would react the same way if one of my favorite characters beat Hanzo so easily. With that said, i am know where need done with this ridiculous manga  . It's still highly entertaining. Nothings perfect



People act like talented geniuses don't ever age and get complacent after they get successful. You see that all the time. You think Mao Zedong in his later years was as good as he was when he was leading his guerilla forces in his youth? Elvis was great in his prime, but got bloated and drugged up after years of success. Hanzou was good in his prime but its likely after he got to the top he just let himself go. Nobody was fighting him and he just rested on his laurels and relied on his rep to scare everyone off. A sword that isn't used or maintained often enough gets rusted, thats pretty much the gist of what Mifune said.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Mar 10, 2011)

Yeah last chapter (531) was fucking lame. And a fucking anticipated character too, one of the few never seen in a proper fight, and i guess never will be seen.

Fewer characters, fewer chapters, more developed characters, more substance. But no, Ki$hi learned from Kubo. How fitting, though, considering the manga is about a clan of form over substance people nowdays.


----------



## crystalblade13 (Mar 10, 2011)

i am almost done with this topic. nothing good happens in your post at all, but the bitching is hilarious. whats next? bitching about the next chapter? now im getting to the point where I WANT you to make a good topic! damn!

on a side note, hanzo is immortal, and cutting arms off does not equal killing.  the chapter was cool and entertaining.


----------



## Judecious (Mar 10, 2011)

gabzilla said:


> Getting?
> 
> It hasn't felt like a real war since day one.



Kakashi division fight was a real war.


----------



## Bill_gates (Mar 10, 2011)

Almost huh? see ya next week!


----------



## Pseudo (Mar 10, 2011)

Kishimoto is the Obama of manga and you guys are The American people.


----------



## Mexicano27 (Mar 10, 2011)

I agree with OP. The only reason it's even interesting to read the fights anymore is to see if the alliance members show any new feats when they destroy their edo tensei opponents.


----------



## The Butcher (Mar 10, 2011)

Between Darui changing his most popular word as he was being sucked into the gourd and this, I really don't know what to expect throughout the rest of this "war".

There hasn't even been any trouble for the Allies. I do expect some kind of tension, but when is it going to occur, after more than half of Akatsuki's forces have been diminished?

Hanzo has been hyped since the introduction of Nagato. As of now he's being trolled by a man we've just been introduced too, which I can't imagine is stronger than ANY of the Sanin. I understand the "match up" arguement as to where if Mifune can stop Hanzo from using any and all Jutsu, he probably has the edge, but I am at my wits end with all of these villians being taken out in a single chapter, at least some kind of drama could unfold. 

I'm already expecting Samui and her brother to be saved from the gourd by the end of the war, and they are basically just as important as the the guy who was blown up by the Edo Tensei who's name I can't remember (Garui?).

So far to me this war is rather pathetic and uninteresting, I am hoping this changes, but I am already expecting Asuma to get one paneled, same with Chiyo and who knows who else.

Rather disappointing if you ask me.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Mar 10, 2011)

Animesing said:


> I agree with you, although I dont mind the convenient encounters, they seem fitting to each other and not out of place when they match up.



I suppose. And at least the encounters show that power alone can only get you so far, and that match-ups and strategy are important.


----------



## Ukoku (Mar 10, 2011)

I think each week, the Telegrams should have a General Bitching Complaint Thread so we won't have threads like this wasting space.


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## The Butcher (Mar 10, 2011)

This isn't "wasting space".

Listen, I in general have taken a defending approach when it comes to Kishimoto and people criticsizing his writing, and the general direction of the story. However, what has been going on in past chapters especially this one is pretty outlandish.

This chapter is supposed to lead me to believe that Mifune someone who was just introduced into the story, is now on par with the likes of Pain and all three Sanin, which in significance to the story should never have happened.

Hanzo was used to hype the significane of Pain's strength and is the reason the Sanin are who they are. 

To be taken out in a single chapter by Mifune is extremely disappointing, and should not be "considered a waste of time".


----------



## HolyHands (Mar 10, 2011)

The Butcher said:


> This isn't "wasting space".
> 
> Listen, I in general have taken a defending approach when it comes to Kishimoto and people criticsizing his writing, and the general direction of the story. However, what has been going on in past chapters especially this one is pretty outlandish.
> 
> ...



This is how I feel too.

Hanzo was used as a benchmark to hype up how legendary the Sannin and Pain were, so seeing him get owned by Mifune is rather jarring. Simply using the "complacency" excuse doesn't cut it in my opinion. A professional bodybuilder and fighter is still going to kick most people's asses even if he DOES become complacent. Getting a little rusty is fine, but growing so weak that a incredibly minor character can kick Hanzo's ass is a little extreme. It'd be like the Rikudo Sennin being beaten by Moegi because Rikudo got lazy for a few years. It just doesn't work. Years of power and experience don't wear out that quickly.


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## Skywalker (Mar 10, 2011)

Go cry elsewhere.


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## handsock (Mar 10, 2011)

Look at it this way. This entire timeskip, they lost lots of good guys. Kage's, Jiraiya, Itachi (yep he's a good guy IMO), Konoha village, Chiyo, etc. Not to mention how much intel the joint-shinobi army has on their enemies. It's all about balance. All this winning? Just wait til Madara or Kabuto's plans come to fruition. A candle always burns brightly before it goes out. Darkness approaches.


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## Bender (Mar 10, 2011)

WTF do you expect? 

It's Naruto

The baddest of the bad Shounen manga (second to Bleach of course ). Even if Good guys do die expect an asspull to bring them back  to life like the shit in the Pain attacks Konoha arc.


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## Skywalker (Mar 10, 2011)

What if all the good guys except for Naruto died?

Then you people would _still_ be crying.


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## len77 (Mar 10, 2011)

I agree that there are just too many fights taking place at once. I like the match-ups, the focus on secondary characters and legends and so on. But that many battles happen simultaneously is not building up suspense. Because there are so many, some fights are just completely forgotten (I seriously forgot about Kakashi). And I don't care about the out-come of fights I forgot about. 

I know that it's war and so many battles do happen at once but it's just not good story-telling. Kishi should have finished at least some fights before setting up new ones. Didn't Jiraya vs Pain happen simultaneously to Itachi vs Sasuke? Wasn't the slow pace the problem, too? I'm sure that the anime will be much better, though.


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## Superstars (Mar 10, 2011)

The war just started. Why do people panic and act like this is near the climax of it?


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## daschysta (Mar 10, 2011)

This is just the first round of fights, to give some variety. After these are over the big players and main chars will get more traditional fights imo, and some development will happen. I prefer he skim over the side characters fights than spend 5 chapters on each of them.


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## Haruhifan21 (Mar 10, 2011)

Superstars said:


> The war just started. Why do people panic and act like this is near the climax of it?



Cuz with the way it's going, we feel that all the other strong Edos will be trolled like Hanzo, Sasori, Deidara, etc.

Let me describe why I say "trolled":
- Hanzou was supposed to be very strong, and was respected by Jiraiya like he was invincible, but he seems to have easily been defeated by Mifune.
- Deidara didn't really do anything, and got sealed. He should have been a lot better than that.
- Sasori... lol. I know he didn't have puppets, but to be defeated by "Kankuro" like that seems ridiculous.

More deadly and awesomer fights could have occurred between the Edos and the alliance.


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## Superstars (Mar 10, 2011)

ThePsuedo said:


> Kishimoto is the Obama of manga and you guys are The American people.



lol, it's a shame...This forum got problems.


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## KillerFlow (Mar 10, 2011)

It's not like the first three ninja wars where the nations have bigger land to battle each other off of. It's just a war to protect the last two Jins so surely the fights and skirmishes will be more exclusive. If it's too panned out and Kishi only focuses on one fight at a time, I would get bored of the arc so splitting the chapters into separate fights is chill. It only worked in the Sasuke Retrieval arc.


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## KillerFlow (Mar 10, 2011)

Hanzou got hella trolled mang.


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## Superstars (Mar 10, 2011)

rainyrabbit said:


> Cuz with the way it's going, we feel that all the other strong Edos will be trolled like Hanzo, Sasori, Deidara, etc.
> 
> Let me describe why I say "trolled":
> - Hanzou was supposed to be very strong, and was respected by Jiraiya like he was invincible, but he seems to have easily been defeated by Mifune.
> ...



These were not the strong Edo's and were beaten convincingly. To assume that the rest of the war is gonna play out like this is not wise.


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## Skywalker (Mar 10, 2011)

It's war, what were you expecting.


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## Supa Swag (Mar 10, 2011)

Saunion said:


> So that's my two cents. God knows I've complained about the ridiculous focus on Sasuke and wanted to see something else for a change, but now I realize that I was wrong, because the damage was done as early as during the Valley of the End fight: there was no reason to hope for anything else than a Sasuke centric story, I should have realized it and stopped wishing for Kishimoto to expand on other aspects of his world, because he's blatantly unable to write about anything else than his Uchiha darling and his lunatic avenger's adventures.



Good post, and this part in particular really strikes home.

Developing the secondary cast the way he has now has really put Kishimoto in a no win situation. Their actions have little to no consequence on the main plot (the actions concerning Naruto/Sasuke). We see the rest of the swordsmen, Kin/Gin (how they got their powers, their weapons and relation to Rikudou, etc), info on the samurai, info on why Hanzou was weakened, Team 10 seeing Asuma, Hiashi/Hizashi fighting, and many other reunions. And for me it all amounts to...

*yawn* so what?

The swordsmen had little hype, played no role prior to this arc and are seemingly about to be wasted by Kakashi, Kin/Gin apparently were responsible for the 2nd Hokage's death but were pretty easily taken out (barring irrelevant fodder death) I don't even think there was any indication that samurai were even prevalent prior to the Kage Summit arc, Hanzou has never been that important outside of giving the Sannin their name and all the emotional reunions will have a painfully obvious conclusion to them.  All this adds to mostly inconsequential battles that just being used to pass the time...which isn't necessarily bad or rare, but with this being one of the final arcs is a bit of a shame. It would be very different if these battles actually had any impact to Naruto/Bee getting captured.

For a while I found it funny that people would want the see the secondary cast so badly but the reality is there's no point if they don't contribute to the main plot. Hell, not too long ago we had Sakura trying to kill Sasuke and giving Naruto some silly ass fake confession, but at the end of the day her actions were meaningless and all that was left was a trainwreck of a character. If anything she's been moved further into the secondary role, despite being the main female.

The reality is since the Rescue Sasuke arc (I would even say since Tsunade search arc) he's focused too much on the Naruto/Sasuke dynamic and mostly disregarded the rest of the cast (and the world itself really) to the point where the impact these characters can make are very little, especially when they're put into situations like we see now. It's no surprise that we see people not liking this development, unless you're a fanboy who'll literally slurp up anything and give out an in-depth explanation to justify their enjoyment when chances are Kishimoto didn't put nearly as much thought into it. Of course there are also the ones who'll never like anything Kishimoto does, where he could make the right move every step of the way and there'll still be that person who for some reason refuses to like it.


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## Mercury Smile (Mar 10, 2011)

Yamato and Anko are pretty much dead. Muta Aburame died. Some of the ppl from the ambush may die from the poison. Sumai and Atsui are finished (for now). Onoki and A will prolly die. Tsunade could possibly die. Shikaku, Chouza, Inoichi, Hiashi should die. Izumo and Kotetsu could die. Bodygaurds like Okisuke and Arakaku, Shii and Ao may die. Omoi and Karui may die. Gai, Baki, Juugo, Suigetsu, Karin may die. None of the Konoha youngsters will die except maybe Sai.


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## Ichiurto (Mar 10, 2011)

Remember the Pain Arc.

Kishimoto wrote a moronic Resurrection jutsu so no one died.

Don't expect any good guys to die in this manga.


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## hcheng02 (Mar 10, 2011)

Mercury Smile said:


> Yamato and Anko are pretty much dead. Muta Aburame died. Some of the ppl from the ambush may die from the poison. Sumai and Atsui are finished (for now). Onoki and A will prolly die. Tsunade could possibly die. Shikaku, Chouza, Inoichi, Hiashi should die. Izumo and Kotetsu could die. Bodygaurds like Okisuke and Arakaku, Shii and Ao may die. Omoi and Karui may die. Gai, Baki, Juugo, Suigetsu, Karin may die. None of the Konoha youngsters will die except maybe Sai.



Don't forget Fuu and Torune. They died pretty gruesomely.


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## KLoWn (Mar 10, 2011)

Ichiurto said:


> Don't expect any good guys to die in this manga.


He's right ya know, cuz like no good guys have ever died in this manga right?
The fact speaks for themselves!


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## Ichiurto (Mar 10, 2011)

KLoWn said:


> He's right ya know, cuz like no good guys have ever died in this manga right?
> The fact speaks for themselves!



A named character dieing for no reason, largely?

The 3rd died protecting the village
Jirayia died fighting Pain
Azuma died fighting Akatsuki

All three got flashbacks, etc. That's how Kishimoto writes, any named/developed characters need flashbacks.

So don't expect the Shikamaru's, Chouji, Ino, Sai's etc. of the world to get killed be these super-strong, undying S-Ranked Ninja.

Fuu and Torune are the closet we have, and they are BARELY good guys considering they followed Danzou.

Face it. This Manga and author handles the good side of kid gloves.


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## Rokudaime (Mar 10, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> That had to be one of the worst chapters of the entire manga, the only thing that was even close to being interesting was seeing how Pein ended Hanzou but FFS, all these villains, all of them are getting trolled, why aren't any of the good guys dieing? What the fuck kind of war is this?
> 
> What's next? Sai reveals his expert hidden abilities and kills Madara?
> 
> It's now getting to the point of which where i'm almost begging one of my favorite characters like Kakashi to get slashed up into little pieces. At least ONE good guy has to die PLEASE, i don't care who it is, get one of team 8's guys to die, hell get all of them to die, just someone DIE please.



Be fair, Kishimoto usually kill characters at the end of the arc. Since, this is a long arc, of course it gives you the impression that no one is dying. I think Kishimoto is trying to give us a false security now and caught us off-guard and kill the good guy later.

Please refrain your rant/complain after the arc ended. It is fair for everyone.


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## On and On (Mar 10, 2011)

I'll agree with everyone that "no one is making you read/this is Naruto, lower your expectations"

but at the same time, this chapter was AWFUL.


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## Akira Kurusu (Mar 10, 2011)

^HOW? this chapter was nothing like how the kin/gin bros went


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## Supa Swag (Mar 10, 2011)

Ichiurto said:


> A named character dieing for no reason, largely?
> 
> The 3rd died protecting the village
> Jirayia died fighting Pain
> ...



This, more or less.



I've said it before, you're only going to be disappointed if you expect majority of the edo tensei to do anything meaningful. They are glorified fodder. This includes the kages/jinchuurikis/itachi/nagato. Don't expect serious tension until Madara steps in.


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## falsepod (Mar 10, 2011)

daschysta said:


> This is just the first round of fights, to give some variety. After these are over the big players and main chars will get more traditional fights imo, and some development will happen. I prefer he skim over the side characters fights than spend 5 chapters on each of them.



agreed. but we already have main characters set to fight. Kakashi was about to face off against the swordsmen. then that got cut off. gaara and onoki where about to fight the previous kage. then that got cut off. even in the latest chapter ino-shika-chou are about to fight asuma and then that gets cut off. two of three fights at once is alright but Kishi is spamming so much in at once its just getting boring. So much is happening at once it feels like nothing is happening at all.


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## HappyHalloween (Mar 10, 2011)

I agree with the OP terrible chapter and up to now a terrible arc.
This isn't a war it's a systematic genocide.  It's like Madara's leading an army of child soldiers vs. the Allaince Spetnaz or something.


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## Skywalker (Mar 10, 2011)

Terrible arc? 

This is leagues ahead of the Pain arc and the arcs before that, never mind that Kage arc garbage.


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## Akira Kurusu (Mar 10, 2011)

plus the war arc hasn't even ended yet....


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## HappyHalloween (Mar 10, 2011)

I enjoyed the Pain arc up until Pain not being able to stab a little girl in the heart, and the mass rez.

I also enjoyed the Kage arc, i liked seeing Sasuke being tossed around like a ragdoll, and Danzo's fight was pretty awesome, despite him getting PNJ'd.


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## Sasuke` (Mar 10, 2011)

War= Brutal. Brutal = War.


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## KLoWn (Mar 10, 2011)

Ichiurto said:


> Don't expect *any good guys to die* in this manga.





Ichiurto said:


> *A named character dieing for no reason*, largely?


^You do realize that this is two diffrent things right?


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## Xerces (Mar 10, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> Terrible arc?
> 
> This is leagues ahead of the Pain arc and the arcs before that, never mind that *Kage arc garbage*.



You mad cause' the Uchiha styled on your favorite characters?


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## Skywalker (Mar 10, 2011)

HappyHalloween said:


> i liked seeing Sasuke being tossed around like a ragdoll.


How could I forget that glory?


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## Superstars (Mar 10, 2011)

Rokudaime said:


> Be fair, Kishimoto usually kill characters at the end of the arc. Since, this is a long arc, of course it gives you the impression that no one is dying. I think Kishimoto is trying to give us a false security now and caught us off-guard and kill the good guy later.
> 
> Please refrain your rant/complain after the arc ended. It is fair for everyone.



You got common sense, which ain't common no more.


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## Akira Kurusu (Mar 10, 2011)

^this, again


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## うずまきナルト (Mar 10, 2011)

I've been saying this since the beginning of the War.

Eventually I will outgrow Naruto and stop reading it(i'm expecting by the end of this year). I've already stop watching the Anime. I now understand that there will be zero important good guys dying, and I'm somewhat fine with that. I just want to see Sasuke's EMS(design and powers), Naruto fighting someone and their fight together. I really don't give a damn about anything else in this Manga.


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## Summers (Mar 10, 2011)

why do people keep saying this only to come back the next week? and he was not trolled. Hanzo was facing someone who he fought before. mizune moved fast enough to prevent hanzo from using jutsu.


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## FitzChivalry (Mar 10, 2011)

The tides has to turn on this war. It absolutely has to. That's how wars in fictional stories are interesting. They're back and forth. Something will happen and the momentum will switch, and then Kishimoto will probably have Naruto do the 11th hour save or something. Just watch.


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## Gameboy (Mar 10, 2011)

Im still waiting for someone to become an hero


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## Madchester (Mar 10, 2011)

It's pretty fucking stupid, a bunch of dumb characters no one cares about versus a bunch of other dumb characters who no one cared about the first time they died, all tied together with cringeworthy proselytising and non-existent moral dilemmas. The emotions are so hackneyed as to be laughable, made all the worse by the fact these characters have no dimension whatsoever.

Don't get me started on Gingaku and Kinkaku.

If you want to see a basic shounen war done well, One Piece just concluded one a few months back.


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## Gabe (Mar 10, 2011)

good guys never die in shonen usually


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## CrystalCypher (Mar 10, 2011)

Samui and Atsui both got their souls sealed last fight. That's two named characters already.


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## Dashido (Mar 10, 2011)

Yea i agree. While reading the last chapter i was thinking wow...he started another battle that he's gonna off panel. He needs to add some quality to the fights. Don't mind the amount but just wish we get some seriously good fights with people showing a broader spectrum of techniques in the limited panels.


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## Gabe (Mar 10, 2011)

many things are happening at the same time he cant just focus on one person


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## Puppetry (Mar 10, 2011)

The war is horrible. Yeah. I'm sorry, but this thread is ridiculous. I complain a lot, but even I can't bare to read this thread. It's been done far too many times.


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## Klue (Mar 10, 2011)

Why do we even have a complaint thread?


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## Bender (Mar 10, 2011)

For the love of god why does every thread in the Konoha Library have to be about how stupid this war arc is? We all know it sucks you don't have to make bitch thread about it every frickin week.


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## T-Bag (Mar 10, 2011)

I completely agree, this is going in a more retarded route than I thought.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Mar 10, 2011)

FitzChivalry said:


> The tides has to turn on this war. It absolutely has to. That's how wars in fictional stories are interesting. They're back and forth. Something will happen and the momentum will switch, and then Kishimoto will probably have Naruto do the 11th hour save or something. Just watch.



Agreed. This arc won't end in the next 3 chapters. Plenty of time for the tension that will overwhelm the good guys that everyone is asking for to appear.


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## Dashido (Mar 10, 2011)

Lol dude just lol. LOL you can't lol just kill people off like that i guess. I would also like more people to die but he'll its shounen and not a Seinen what can you do but watch and enjoy even if it does seem alil to innocent


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## Mastic (Mar 10, 2011)

If you are this far into Naruto, you definitely might as well finish it, its got 2 years left, if that, at the most.


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## Supa Swag (Mar 10, 2011)

CrystalCypher said:


> Samui and Atsui both got their souls sealed last fight. That's two named characters already.



The moment Darui said he would find a way to free them, their fate of being released was guaranteed.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 10, 2011)

i know rite, thats what irritates me, i want kishi to go straight to the point...give me uchihas and naruto please


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## Mako (Mar 10, 2011)

It's not really 'stupid'. I actually missed the old characters. If you don't like it, there's other mangas out there for you. Give Kishi some time. If you want then we'll tell you when the war's done.


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## nadinkrah (Mar 10, 2011)

Donuts said:


> It's not really 'stupid'. I actually missed the old characters. If you don't like it, there's other mangas out there for you. *Give Kishi some time*. If you want then we'll tell you when the war's done.



How many times have i heard this before?


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## Mako (Mar 10, 2011)

nadinkrah said:


> How many times have i heard this before?



Tons. But you know Kishi is gonna take a shitload of time on this arc. That's for sure.


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## Jin-E (Mar 10, 2011)

HolyHands said:


> This is how I feel too.
> 
> Hanzo was used as a benchmark to hype up how legendary the Sannin and Pain were, so seeing him get owned by Mifune is rather jarring. Simply using the "complacency" excuse doesn't cut it in my opinion. A professional bodybuilder and fighter is still going to kick most people's asses even if he DOES become complacent. Getting a little rusty is fine, but growing so weak that a incredibly minor character can kick Hanzo's ass is a little extreme. It'd be like the Rikudo Sennin being beaten by Moegi because Rikudo got lazy for a few years. It just doesn't work. Years of power and experience don't wear out that quickly.



Hanzo and Mifune are both village leaders+Kenjutsu experts, thus making them equal in prestige and authority. In that situation, complacency really could be a game changer. 

Your comparision is just beyond stupid.


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## Skywalker (Mar 10, 2011)

This war isn't going to stay like this, Kabuto and Madara won't let it, their both probably planning something big.


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## k2nice (Mar 10, 2011)

If you have a problem, ask kishimoto personally. If you can't do that then you are fucked. End of story.


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## Creamie123 (Mar 10, 2011)

I think the following good characters will possibly, or probably die in the War Arc, or at least before Naruto ends, should there be another arc/s following this:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Bold = Probably. Not Bold = Possibly
*Tsuchikage
Raikage
Tsunade*
Gai
Kakashi
Mizune
Sasuke
Bee


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## Supersonic Strawhat (Mar 10, 2011)

Bender said:


> For the love of god why does every thread in the Konoha Library have to be about how stupid this war arc is? We all know it sucks you don't have to make bitch thread about it every frickin week.



Kishi doesn't have to make it suck worse each week though.


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## Skeith (Mar 10, 2011)

Watch, a good guy name character will die and we will get 10-30 thread of *"Why did *insert name here* have to die and not *insert name here?*"* the usual *"This Arc is terrible."* And the great *"Fuck you Kishi, I'm not reading the manga anymore!!" *thread.


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## Philip.J.Fry (Mar 10, 2011)

Nfpsouljah said:


> Lol I don't really care about rep, unless it's positive of course
> 
> Is it a too much to ask for just a little bit more drama? Everything is so predictable, with every new chapter, another bad guy gets trolled. The Zetsu's are all looking like fodder, Hanzou was fodder, The 2 brothers were fodder, the 7 swordsman are looking like fodder, Chiyo and Kimmimaro are dead certs to be fodder, Gaara's dad will no doubt be fodder, Asuma will completely dominate his old team but for some reason will get things turned on him and will no doubt be fodder etc



You do realize that the ninja's are getting smashed right? There are still a shitload of edo's left including all the jinchuriiki, itachi, and nagato. Then we also have both zetsu, kabuto, sasuke, and Madara (2 Rinnegan user, one EMS user, and one MS user). Look at the ninja's seriously, everyone's all cut up and losing chakra fast. Kakashi will be drained after he's done with the swordsman, darui looks like he's about finished, and tsuchikage's son looks like he'll do his part and finish soon too.


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## Soul (Mar 11, 2011)

Most fights have been ended stupidly.
I am not liking this arc


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## Yami_no_Princess (Mar 11, 2011)

Naruto Senju said:


> I've been saying this since the beginning of the War.
> 
> Eventually I will outgrow Naruto and stop reading it(i'm expecting by the end of this year). I've already stop watching the Anime. I now understand that there will be zero important good guys dying, and I'm somewhat fine with that. I just want to see Sasuke's EMS(design and powers), Naruto fighting someone and their fight together. I really don't give a damn about anything else in this Manga.



I'm with this guy, all I wanna see is what happens to Naruto and Sasuke, I don't care about this war and was upset when it was revealed there was going to be a war. It was bad then, and it's bad now, seriously that last chapter made me upset that I wasted my time reading it. I should have waited til another chapter had come out before reading it damn. 

I know no one's forcing me to continue following the series, but it's my own morbid curiosity and the fact that all my friends like to get together and discuss the latest chapter. Damn you peer pressure -.-


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## GohanKun (Mar 11, 2011)

Soul said:


> Most fights have been ended stupidly.
> I am not liking this arc



I agree with this, six-tailed Kinkaku died way too stupid imo.


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## jux (Mar 11, 2011)

I'm agreeing there Saunion. The current war arc leaves you starry eyed and mystified by all the haxx jutsus and taijutsus, but you can't really emotionally invests in any of the characters because they're all newly introduced and 2D caricatures. Darui just fucked over The Gin Brothers...and? I have little interest in any of their survivals or really, what they have to say. The impact of their entire fight is lessened due to the lack of development, meaning Kishi has to abuse flashback, which just reminds you how little effort he's put with his secondary characters. Even the Rookies, who a majority of us want development for, fall flat on their face because we haven't seen them for so long, it's just...awkward. Not to mention to rehashing of already dead characters just totally lowers the impact of their initial death. It's too repetitive. 

Kishi's lack of focus on his secondary cast and world building has really dug himself a hole, because while you get sick of the Team 7 drama, you have a complete lack of connection with what is going on elsewhere and anything that is not forwarding the plot.

On the other hand, it's a good break from Team 7.

Can't do much though....


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## Hyuga 4 Eyes (Mar 11, 2011)

The only time in this entire manga where it was believable that "good" characters could be able to die seem to be from the pre-timeskip era. The whole rescue Sasuke arc had me believing that Kishi was going to allow Neji and Chouji die, it would have been great for the story...but alas it wasnt so.

When Asuma died I didnt really care, he was about as useful to the story as Kurenai or Tsunade's assistant (lolz I cant remember her name). It would be cool to see some important characters die (Sai, Tsunade, maybe Ino-pig chan ), but it wont be the popular thing to do...

Meh.


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## jdbzkh (Mar 11, 2011)

People are freaking ridiculous Pain killed/raped all of Konoha and people bitched to no end, now the good guys are winning and putting up a fight and what are people still doing.


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## Drums (Mar 11, 2011)

Kishi is saving all his power and inspiration for the final NaruSasu fight.And even if the rushed war feels kinda annoying, I dont rlly mind that much cause me too, I am in a rush to see the final Narusasu fight. So I am glad Kishi is being kinda rushy so far.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 11, 2011)

While I do want good guys to die, I don't see why this chapter made much of a difference.

People are always saying they want important big names to die (I do as well). This chapter was about...Mifune who, while impressive, is hardly a big name. 

If Mifune had died here, there would have been complaining about how Kishimoto is only killing off minor characters.


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## DremolitoX (Mar 11, 2011)

I'd be okay with some of my favorites dying (like The Raikage) so long as someone stupid dies along with them (like gaara)


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## Aleeight (Mar 11, 2011)

You guys are right in your posts. I think this all is the real reason why I wanted Naruto to be part of this war. Then there would have been a chance for the Konoha 12 to connect back to him instead of leaving everything still in a disconnect between them. He is their only real connection to the main plot for most of them unfortunately now, and if they could have ended up fighting by his side, then what will happen to Naruto, could have ended up happening to them as well. 

Yes, not having Naruto part of the war allows other characters to have battles, but for what purpose? For the development of their own characters? But what is the purpose behind their characters? That is the real question. 

It makes me angry that Naruto's _*friends*_ have been allowed to become irrelevant. His _precious people_ have taken a back seat around a plot that is supposed to value bonds and comrades above all else. Yes, we get that Sasuke is important to Naruto, but how healthy is this if it causes Naruto's character and the plot itself to ignore others and and the purpose of this story?


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## ovanz (Mar 11, 2011)

Is too soon to judge the war, at least in the good guy die department.

I do think is unfair how legends from the past are being beated by nobodies of the present. 

About deaths in the ally side, I think some of the kages are gonna die, but that's pretty much the only good guy deaths.

At least something positive is that so far bad guys didn't "die" yet in this war, as they are already dead and now are sealed. Start bitching when kabuto/madara start dying without killing nobody xD.


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Mar 11, 2011)

Funny, I thought this was one of the best chapters of the war.

I guess I don't get worked up by unsubstatiated hype and just either appreciate the fight(Hanzou) or sigh and move on(Kin and Gin).


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## Palpatine (Mar 11, 2011)

Another one of these threads?

I knew what was coming with this fourth ninja world war crap. Long battles I don't give a crap about. That's why I'm not reading the series each week. I'll just blow through the stupid crap once it reaches it's climax, so I can actually get to the Madara/Naruto/Sasuke confrontation.


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## Luffyfangirl24 (Mar 11, 2011)

StrawHeart said:


> Kishi is saving all his power and inspiration for the final NaruSasu fight.And even if the rushed war feels kinda annoying, I dont rlly mind that much cause me too, I am in a rush to see the final Narusasu fight. So I am glad Kishi is being kinda rushy so far.



But the NaruSasu fight won't take place till the end of the series, which won't be for some time now. They are trying to spread this War out as much as possible, they wouldn't have Naruto train just for the two up coming major villains would they? Na, could it?


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## NU-KazeKage (Mar 11, 2011)

rainyrabbit said:


> Well, OP does have a point.
> 
> Kishi seems to be twisting all scenarios too much to have the good guys win.
> 
> Just look how Mifune is pawning Hanzou, and Jiraiya respected him almost like he was invincible.



i kinda think that the sannin didnt have thier uber boss summons, body mods or thier uber jutsus at that point they probably had throw kunai, heal and generic fire move. hanzou was a big fish in a little pond once he came out to the real world he got pwned pretty hard.


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## Drums (Mar 11, 2011)

Luffyfangirl24 said:


> But the NaruSasu fight won't take place till the end of the series, which won't be for some time now. They are trying to spread this War out as much as possible, they wouldn't have Naruto train just for the two up coming major villains would they? Na, could it?



How does that alter my point? o.O If its a war Kishi will have plenty of things to get out of the way and he cant linger too much on each and every of them, unless you want to be done with this arc in 3 years plus. He needs to save up some strength for the final fight, no matter when it will be, cause rlly I think that one is even more crucial and more interesting than the ones that are happening at the moment. afterall the ones going on now are the necessary step for the final one.


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## Trent (Mar 11, 2011)

Odlam said:


> It's not the lack of death, it's the lack of tension - it's not that the good guys can't die, it's that they can't lose or even be hurt seriously. And I'm not talking about losing the total war, but they aren't even losing the skirmishes. It's like they've all got invisible deflector shields on.
> 
> *1)*We had the Deidara/Sasori, alliance wins easily
> *2)*We had Kin/Gin, alliance wins easily
> ...



I wouldn't say easily, I'd say _quickly_and the Kage Alliance is still suffering losses just not "named" ones.

In 1, some of the 1st scout group was killed then Kankurou's group _had to flee for their lives._

In 2, _most _of the division was killed and reinforcements were needed to take down Kinkaku.

In 3, Kankurou's group was about to be _killed _and had to be saved by more reinforcement (and, even with Hanzou dealt with, there are still a few Edo Zombies to deal with)

I still agree with what you're saying though. 

A big set back for one of the divisions would be great to increase the tension (and named good guys dying would do the same by creating an "anyone can die" vibe) but Madara's army still is serving its purpose and wearing down the Alliance.


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## JiraiyaTheGallant (Mar 11, 2011)

Nic said:


> Even if they die they'll be revived, so you might as well have stopped reading months ago.



Maybe by Edo Tensei, but outright revival like Chiyo's or Nagato's final jutsus is highly unlikely. I know Kishi wouldn't make things that Dragonball-ish.


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## alchemy1234 (Mar 11, 2011)

I thought the chapter was horrible as well. but kishi is leaving the best bits for last. i mean who cares about mifune here....? no one i assume. yet showing him fight is kinda important. once this is over hopefully we'll see sasukes eyes, or kakashis fight. that will be a lot more interesting. lol btw if u think this is bad, wait till asuma starts fighting again.... shite.... that is going to really make me want to quit the manga for a while as well. i hope these fights aren't drawn out.


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 11, 2011)

Soul said:


> Most fights have been ended stupidly.
> I am not liking this arc



And how many fights have their been again that have ENDED? 1? Kin/gin? OK! THATS ALOT OF FIGHTS MAN! Hmmm, how were they defeated again? oh yeah...they were defeated fairly and according to their given powers! That sealing pot wasnt introduced on the fly, we knew from long kumo used to seal in "pots" but now we know what "pot" so yeah. nothing wrong with how they were defeated. They had a weakness and it backfired. Simple


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## Arya Stark (Mar 12, 2011)

I can't get the "Naruto" feeling from war.Where's emotion,where are tears?

It's just...Something lacks.


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## jux (Mar 12, 2011)

Aleeight said:


> You guys are right in your posts. I think this all is the real reason why I wanted Naruto to be part of this war. Then there would have been a chance for the Konoha 12 to connect back to him instead of leaving everything still in a disconnect between them. He is their only real connection to the main plot for most of them unfortunately now, and if they could have ended up fighting by his side, then what will happen to Naruto, could have ended up happening to them as well.
> 
> Yes, not having Naruto part of the war allows other characters to have battles, but for what purpose? For the development of their own characters? But what is the purpose behind their characters? That is the real question.


At the same time I don't think Naruto is ready to join the war yet. I think keeping him out for now is a good move from Kishi because other characters need to be in the spotlight to transpose how big and how great and threatening this war is. Kishimoto is essentially doing his world building through the current war (albiet a little late and totally rushed), which needs to have Naruto's absence to really work. If Naruto had been part of it originally, I feel as if it would have downsize the impact, because the hero would be on focus and always around to save the day.


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## Hiroshi (Mar 14, 2011)

Please use the Manga Complaints Thread which is stickied for threads such as this. I've deleted posts which were not relevant and merged the thread with the sticky. PM me with any questions.


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## JimBobbiJim (Mar 16, 2011)

I hate the way Kishimoto designed Sakura, annoying, obsessive and useless.


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## Mat?icha (Mar 16, 2011)

sinec i can complain all i want here, i'll get it out.
Naruto manga has been sucking big time lately. since the wa started i have started to lose interest in this manga. once my most favorite manga has gone down the crap and now i am just reading it becasue i hope to see Sasuke. Kishi is really doing crappy job of developing the story. anyway, at least i enjoy Toriko, Kekkaishi and One Piece these days.
i feel better now


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## KAKASHI10 (Mar 16, 2011)

*Everything started with Kisame and Gai*

So we were getting close to the chapter 500. Many theories at the time going on and speculations on what happend that night.  We get the prophecy, Naruto been stupid as always, a little thing here and there. But we all/most  were happy with the manga. 

Then Kishi decides to draw the fox really bad, I mean seriously kishi its suppose to be the BADDEST biju of all, the focus of the manga. But he decides to draw it like that.
 But OK, I let it go. Now naruto is fighting the fox then his mom appears, he defeated the fox and now story telling time.  Now we have this: 





> He saw true everything I did


 And Based on the story it did not went like that  OK but Also we have that he sacrifice himself for no reason what so ever. He could have rased naruto, having naruto as the jirunke.  

But OK, for good old times I let it go a bit. Then what do we have. Naruto transform into Jesus like mode, sense kisame and goes behind him. bee says he ony saw a yellow flash, and then then AND ANOTHER then His foot get stuck in the wall  

Kisame scapes, fights the group and then one of the most interested and talked about fights Kisame VS Gai. I was with the part of 30% clone made gai go to 6th gate this will be interesting kisame will win. But what did KISHI did? instead of EXTENDING that fight for one more chapter, and we could see a ittle more fight between the 2 of them, that by the way kisame is 4.5 in tai. would have been cool to see them figthing tai with gai having a little upper hand, then more nin from kisame part and then what happend. But kishi said screw it. He  ended the fight really quick  

AFTER THAT  THE MANGA NEVER WAS THE SAME 

1- Sasori got TROLLED so hard, that he had to make kabuto say that it was experimenting on sasori. When in fact with sais brother that supposly experiment was enough.
2- Sai brother could have gotten a little more pannel time and show a little more moves. 
3- making kankuro superior to sasori 
4- introduction of filler brothers.
5- Hanzo getting it worst than sasori trolling. 
6- Kakashi and edos refight was also bad.
7- naruto counting penises



> * DremolitoX  *
> I want to see Naruto count animal penises again. Alot better than what's currently going on.


I will stop here. you can add more if you want. But seriously The manga went down hill after the kisame fight, the only light was the rampage quote and that does not justify all the bad stuff, trolling and bad writting the manga has had. 
No wonder kisame did this:

 so kishi you are saying that you are taking this direction with the manga, and you will be trolling really hard all the edos.

Kishi: 

 and you also are planning to troll me along with the edos and other good characters?

Kishi: 

 fuck that shit im living in my own terms like a man 

With all the trolling the edos has gotten, the bad writting I have lost all hope and interest in the manga. I keep reading because of habit and just because I want to know how it ends. 


What do you think?


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## Dark Red Z (Mar 16, 2011)

This is precisely why I am against the idea of Edo Kisame.


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## KAKASHI10 (Mar 16, 2011)

Does anyone else feels and see this things the same way as me?


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## Milliardo (Mar 16, 2011)

i'm sure a lot people see it that way.. thats why there were a lot of complaint threads.. the war really hasn't been that interesting at all to me tbh.. hopefully things will pick up when characters like itachi or the kages get involved..


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## Hamaru (Mar 16, 2011)

Kakashi's team has had the best part in this war so far.I think Kishi has done enough to show everyone that Kisame is strong. So I don't think him going out the way he did was that bad. We all know he was not 100% and Gai busted out his best moves to date. With the fight he gave Gai the feats needed to match the hype he already had. 

As for the Edos, they get trolled so that we can move onto other people that Kishi woud like to focus more on. With all of the Edos that Kabuto has, it would take up the year if Kishi made the fights for each one last 3 weeks or more...hell, it would take MORE than a year. Between the Edos, Zetsu (the real one), Sasuke, and Madara, this war can easily last 2 years if they are all given 2+ chapters. Kishi already knows that and can't spend to much time on people that has already shown what they can do.


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## Algol (Mar 16, 2011)

No. I mean I personally can't complain. I have been enjoying all these chapters, regardless of how quick the fights are and how they play out. I already knew kishi kinda screwed himself when he introduced so many edos. It seems he's trying to make atleast the initial part of the war one arc, so rather than having arc-long fights, we get many new chracters with only like 3-chapter fights. This war would be 5 years if he gave every match-up a full dedication.

With that said, i am a bit disappointed, but i really can't blame him. I want to see things progress and the chaos of war, so that is what he seems to be doing, and it is working out, imo. Plus, i actually don't care about many of the edos, cuz they are dead. so i don't really give a crap about dead characters to be honest, cuz i feel they have no potential for future relevance.



KAKASHI10 said:


> 3- making kankuro superior to sasori



Lastly, idk why people keep saying this. It was nvr said that kankuro was a superior ninja/puppet user than sasori. To me, what was said by kankuro implied that he was mentally and philosophically above sasori. Kinda like  kankuro saying "the reason i won is cuz i haven't lost my beliefs in myself and these puppets, and i keep improving. you, sasori, lost your way somewhere, so thats why you lost" rather than actually saying he is a better ninja. (kinda like mifune and hanzo)


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## Hated Uchiha (Mar 16, 2011)

i take it things are moving at the fast pace they are for a build up.
i dont mind how the fox is or was drawn. or how naruto was held back from showing us how bad he woulda been in his newly gotten cloak. 
seeing as how the edo's seem to be conflicted while fighting. it makes sense for them not to be as deadly as they were when alive.
plus their fighting people that have an emotional connection too. supposed to be an advantage for kabuto. but ends up +1 for the allies because they already know their fighting styles. through experience or history. an plus. theirs only 2 ways to beat them without getting kabuto.

i couldve done without the penis shot tho


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## KAKASHI10 (Mar 17, 2011)

Colt said:


> i'm sure a lot people see it that way.*. thats why there were a lot of complaint threads.*. the war really hasn't been that interesting at all to me tbh.. *hopefully things will pick up when characters like itachi or the kages get involved*..



1- exactly
2- Sadly the troll they will get will be so huge it is not even funny. poor ITACHI




Hamaru said:


> *1-* Kakashi's team has had the best part in this war so far.
> *2-*I think Kishi has done enough to show everyone that Kisame is strong. So I don't think him going out the way he did was that bad. We all know he was not 100% and Gai busted out his best moves to date. With the fight he gave Gai the feats needed to match the hype he already had.
> 
> *3-*As for the Edos, they get trolled so that we can move onto other people that Kishi woud like to focus more on.
> ...



1- Yes, I agree with that
2- They could at least fought for one more chapter, having them fight in tai and nin. giving kisame the upper hand and then at the end gai wins the way he won. would have been MORE TOLARABLE AND BETTER than the shit he did.
3- He gave 3 weeks, let me repeat 3 WEEKS to filler brothers/ enough said.
4- You are forgetting that this manga has already 10 years and that there are edos that deserve several weeks. Not just edo them, give them 3 pannels and go they go. 




Jfizz said:


> No. I mean I personally can't complain. I have been enjoying all these chapters, regardless of how quick the fights are and how they play out. I already knew kishi kinda screwed himself when he introduced so many edos. It seems he's trying to make atleast the initial part of the war one arc, so rather than having arc-long fights, we get many new chracters with only like 3-chapter fights. This war would be 5 years if he gave every match-up a full dedication.
> 
> Lastly, idk why people keep saying this. It was nvr said that kankuro was a superior ninja/puppet user than sasori. To me, what was said by kankuro implied that he was mentally and philosophically above sasori. Kinda like  kankuro saying "the reason i won is cuz i haven't lost my beliefs in myself and these puppets, and i keep improving. you, sasori, lost your way somewhere, so thats why you lost" rather than actually saying he is a better ninja. (kinda like mifune and hanzo)



To each their own, but there are some characters that deserve more pannel time and more epicness.

The kankuro part that was not entirely how it went. 



Hated Uchiha said:


> i take it things are moving at the fast pace they are for a build up.
> i dont mind how the fox is or was drawn. or how naruto was held back from showing us how bad he woulda been in his newly gotten cloak.
> seeing as how the edo's seem to be conflicted while fighting. *it makes sense for them not to be as deadly as they were when alive.*
> plus their fighting people that have an emotional connection too. supposed to be an advantage for kabuto. but ends up +1 for the allies because they already know their fighting styles. through experience or history. an plus. theirs only 2 ways to beat them without getting kabuto.
> ...



besides not getting tires and having chakra to no end, they generate how can that not make them stronger than when they were alive.

at least the penis part we agree on. But like the guy in my signature says:
I prefer to see naruto counting penises than the shit is going on. and not to say when the trolling of ITACHI start ITACHI ITACHI poor itachi


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## Ezekial (Mar 23, 2011)

*Manga: Awful illustration lately?*

Ever since this war arc has started it seems like the illustrations of backrounds and scenery has really gone down hill, anyone agree? It seems Kishi is just adding to many new characters and designs and it really takes it away from the location design (which IMO is makes a chapter good I mean who wants to see an army fight on a beach with no detail?) 

The manga just seems to be lacking good quality drawings lately  (Characters and back drops)

Maybe there on a budget?

Hanzo's topless design?
SNSM Luffy? 
Ino's teeth?
Kinkaku holding the gourd?

WTF Kishi.

Atleast the last chapter had some cool back drops and designs. Seem to be getting better.......


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## MCHammerdad (Mar 23, 2011)

They could fight in a blank white background for all I care as long as they fight and not absently talk for 10 pages....


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## Ezekial (Mar 23, 2011)

MCHammerdad said:


> They could fight in a blank white background for all I care as long as they fight and not absently talk for 10 pages....



sometimes it is blank backrounds, atleast a good back drop gives a chapter atmosphere.


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## Jeαnne (Mar 23, 2011)

looks like even the autor looses motivation with fodder


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## Ezekial (Mar 23, 2011)

Je?nne said:


> looks like even the autor looses motivation with fodder



ha yeh, agreed


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## PuppetDoctor (Mar 23, 2011)

I have also found the artwork lately to be sloppy. It is probably because he keeps having to make new characters to kill off right away or maybe Kishimoto just doesn't care anymore.


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## Bild (Mar 23, 2011)

SuperEzekial19 said:


> Maybe there on a budget?
> 
> *Hanzo's topless design?*
> SNSM Luffy?
> ...


What do the two bolded have to do with the art being "awful"?


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## Sounday (Mar 23, 2011)

I like the art and haven't noticed anything off with the background, I just wish they'd use more dynamic angles. Everything looks like it was shot at eye level on a goddamn camera that's four feet away and then drawn on paper.


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## Hexa (Mar 23, 2011)

It might be worse?  I never thought when reading the recent chapters that the art was off or something, but maybe it is.


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## Palpatine (Mar 23, 2011)

It's had some crap art since before the war honestly. It's just becoming more frequent.

It's so bad that I have trouble telling what the hell is going on during fights at times.


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## jacamo (Mar 23, 2011)

Jeαnne said:


> looks like even the autor looses motivation with fodder





and your avatar is practically giving me a seizure


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## Faustus (Mar 24, 2011)

Hell no! The art is great!


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## jux (Mar 24, 2011)

Funkfreed said:


> It's had some crap art since before the war honestly. It's just becoming more frequent.
> 
> It's so bad that I have trouble telling what the hell is going on during fights at times.



Same here. Kishi's art has gotten really cluttered and messy. This arc just reinforces it because it's got more fighting.


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## Yuna (Mar 24, 2011)

Unless Kishimoto is a wizard, the backgrounds are most probably done by assistants.


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## Waking Dreamer (Mar 24, 2011)

There are few shounen manga that has A-grade art in every chapter, Naruto isnt one of them.


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## Saunion (Mar 24, 2011)

I know Kishimoto has back problems, and sometimes his art looks really sketchy and messy because of it.

Off the top of my head, the first time Kakuzu unleashed his masks during the Immortals arc and when Kakashi "died" against Pain looked really rough and amateurish too.

He'll probably fix it for the tankoubon release.


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## vagnard (Mar 24, 2011)

It's not just the backgrounds. The characters look shitty and generic too just like the camera angles. 

The drawing in Part 1 was way more detailed and dynamic.


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## HInch (Mar 24, 2011)

I don't get what you're all complaining about. Not everything can be as good as his Pain x Naruto fight art.


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## Kirath (Mar 24, 2011)

What's SNSM Luffy? ?


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## LeeTheG7 (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm giving up on both the manga and the Anime I've seen all I can see from this pathetic series. Its sad because I really liked it when the anime was around the Kakuzu arc and the manga was in the Pain arc it was the greatest anime around. However the Anime ruined the pain fight and the manga has been completely boring ever since Pain died. Who cares about Sasuke vs Kages or Danzou. Who cares about some random black dude fighting two fox guys we don't know. I don't I thought I was watching Naruto not random black guy and if that wasn't bad enough next two chapters have two even worse and random. Now they are taking a break in the manga and the anime has already been ruined so I guess I give up. Naruto part 1 during the chuunin exams were great and nothing will take that away but I done with the pathetic stuff they are thinking of now.


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## MCHammerdad (Mar 24, 2011)

I liked the black guys....


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## Supersonic Strawhat (Mar 25, 2011)

LeeTheG7 said:


> I'm giving up on both the manga and the Anime I've seen all I can see from this pathetic series. Its sad because I really liked it when the anime was around the Kakuzu arc and the manga was in the Pain arc it was the greatest anime around. However the Anime ruined the pain fight and the manga has been completely boring ever since Pain died. Who cares about Sasuke vs Kages or Danzou. Who cares about some random black dude fighting two fox guys we don't know. I don't I thought I was watching Naruto not random black guy and if that wasn't bad enough next two chapters have two even worse and random. Now they are taking a break in the manga and the anime has already been ruined so I guess I give up. Naruto part 1 during the chuunin exams were great and nothing will take that away but I done with the pathetic stuff they are thinking of now.



Didn't you know? The real manga ended after Naruto beat Pain. Every after that was imaginary.


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## FearTear (Mar 29, 2011)

All right, here's my complain (sorry in advance for my bad grammar):

I still like to see secondary characters in action, BUT. The fact that they all are considered SECONDARY bugs me as hell. Kishimoto hadn't put so much effort about making his manga intricate, in fact the only characters that are useful for the evolution of the plot are Naruto, Sasuke and Madara, and this is why we're feeling the war like a filler


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## Luxiano (Apr 4, 2011)

This "war" arc is godawful and fillerish.


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## tori22 (Apr 14, 2011)

I really can't stand people who complain about kishi "pulling things out of his ass" seriously he DOESNT. Just because he didn't have the whole series thought up since the beginning doesn't mean it's awful.


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## RyuukanoJutsu (Apr 16, 2011)

Luxiano said:


> This "war" arc is godawful and fillerish.



Only during the Kin/Gin and other people no1curr about parts...I've been feeling it ever since they brought Team Asuma back in. Hopefully Kishi will cycle through the other teams and show us their development too.


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## animeguy91 (Apr 18, 2011)

Sakura Has A Tight Snatch said:


> The romance in this manga...it really sucks in terms of depth and developmetn.



yea and everytime kishi gives us any cance of it developing he takes it bak.....


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## wibisana (Apr 19, 2011)

well, I dont like the plot
what the hell with the war
and finally kishimoto will end the manga wih the end of the war


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## Addy (Apr 19, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> yea and everytime kishi gives us any cance of it developing he takes it bak.....


he never takes it back. i wish he takes back and never shows it again


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## FearTear (Apr 19, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> yea and everytime kishi gives us any cance of it developing he takes it back.....



Thanks God he does!


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## CrazyAries (Apr 19, 2011)

FearTear said:


> Thanks God he does!





Oh, I remember that.  Spoof Sakura had the best lines.  I Sai had great ones, too.  There was just so much truth in that comic.


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## Red Raptor (Apr 23, 2011)

RyuukanoJutsu said:


> Only during the Kin/Gin and other people no1curr about parts...I've been feeling it ever since they brought Team Asuma back in. Hopefully Kishi will cycle through the other teams and show us their development too.



Judging by how he off paneled poor Tenten and the Bashosen... I doubt he will cycle to the other teams. It seems he loves team 10 more than team 8 and team Gai, that much is obvious. Well he loves Gai more than Neji, Lee and Tenten. 

So his recent interview of saying Shikamaru and Chouji (and Kakashi) will be the ones to watch out for this year in the war arc has turned out to be true after all (in Kishi's mind anyway). Chouji went through the same kinda development he had in part one; Kakashi says he would go on a rampage , and even of that's off panel, he's a main player there'll be more things to come for him. Guess Shikamaru will be playing a more significant role in the later part of the war arc as well then.

His depiction of Ino was a real welcomed surprise, no one thought he could show a kunoichi so well! That gave us so much hope for Tenten but ... oh well.

I think he's written himself into a corner and he has had too many fights to flesh out as a result, forcing him to off panel so many interesting fights to stay closer to the main characters' development so that his readers and editors won't keep pushing him to bring Naruto onto the battlefield. I still feel it's too soon for the big guns to join the war (really wonder what Madara is up to!) and as such, the chances of seeing the others shine have been greatly reduced.


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## Yakkai (Apr 25, 2011)

Luxiano said:


> This "war" arc is godawful and fillerish.



Can you imagine what the anime filler of the war will be like? Its like a double rainbow of suck.


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## violentrl (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm not saying that I can write than Kishi, if were to start from scratch and fix up bunch of plot holes, it would definately make the manga better than it already is. Ginkaku/Kinkaku ruined the series so much that it was unbearable and I unfortunately had to drop the series. 
Edo Tensei war is ridiculous enough as it is, I was thinking of making the current war(Bijuu war) a starting point of a *new world* that Naruto and his crew will face. I like the idea of Kabuto becoming the final villain. He's very secretive and a former spy of Akatsuki and someday surpass Orochimaru. He also has vast overall knowledge and he is a cold calculated character, even more so than Madara. It keeps the series unexpected and drag the series(in a good way). He might not have raw destructive powers but, being manipulative, he'll create conflict between one village against another, he'll make his move then. As of now, I can't seem to find someone other than Madara being the final boss, even though he's incredibly lame 90 year old man who got embarrassed by Shodai and Yondaime. Right now, it's just too predictable. Right now, his character is being trolled by giving him a haxxed jutsu like Edo Tensei.

I just have plenty of things to rant about. This will be long so bear with me.

*Part 1:*
1. Naruto using Kyubi chakra after having his chakra points disabled. The manga didn't explain this at all. If your chakra point is disabled, then you can't fight and that is final. No more PNJ. Not a big problem though, the match was good. It could have been better if Naruto used 1000 shadow clones and punched simultaneously and win the match(Similar to Luffy using Gomu Gomu Gatling). Naruto won too easily.

2. Mangekyou Sharingan. Genjutsu is really lame. What happened to the original use of sharingan where you can copy a jutsu and predict the enemy before they even know what they are going to do next. Kishimoto overlooks this and still, sharingan users like kakashi and sasuke gets wtfpwned. If you can create an image into someone's mind, why then create mangekyou sharingan which is a complete ass-pull. What kind of power is unlocking an already haxed eyes with killing your best friend for more power to further troll your enemies. Someone like Itachi could pull Aizen and be like "no, this whole battle was simply a genjutsu. You think you may have killed me but that was only because I made you see that" and go on with this bullshit one hitter KO with "It's time to end this so I'm now gonna make you believe your dead and make you cut your wrist and bleed to death".

3. Chouji surviving after taking the red pill. Why can't Kishi have the balls to kill off the person when the manga promises to do so. The user taking the Red pill should have been dead. I don't care, the manga said so.

4. Neji surviving arrow shot through his vital point. He shouldn't have moved at all, let alone get up and send chakra through the spider web which Kidomaru should have easily cut off the web. Also, most of all, Neji has enough strength to finish off Kidomaru with 64 palms. Lame. At the very most, he should have died after the battle just like Choji.

5. Creation of Cursed Seal level 2: This is pretty lame but why give Sasuke ability to fly and give multiple transformation like it's some retarded version of DBZ? Why not just power up Cursed Seal level 1? His first transformation looked more bad ass. This goes same for the rest of the Sound Five. Cursed Seal 2 was unnecessary.

*Shippuden(Part 2):*
1. Lady Chiyo reviving Gaara with her medical jutsu. Why create such ridiculous jutsu in order to revive the character. Shippuden starting off with Gaara being killed is a bad ass way to make the series even better. We saw the flashbacks of him wanting to protect Sunagakure and he did. If he died, it would have been much more epic. Now, Gaara is seen as retarded fodder.

2. Fuuton Rasenshuriken: More haxxed version of rasengan which allowed him to surpass even Kakashi. No Kakashi, your wrong. His training would be better learning his basics and improving his clone timing and improving chakra control so he can use rasengan with one hand each.

3. Team Hebi: What did team Hebi did something every useful? They are waste of panels and have no character development. I hate Karin the most. Wtf is this sensing chakra level ability. Is she Goku or something? Suigetsu and Juugo are also lame.

4. Sasuke surviving Deidara's explosion with asspull of summoning Manda, genjutsu him and de-summon him in less than 0.1 seconds. He was basically wobbling and about to pass out. Deidara isn't stupid so he would know that Sasuke was at his limit. Why not genjutsu the whole fight so it would look more realistic. The velocity of explosion reaches 2000-8000 m/s which is faster than a speeding bullet. Kishi said that no characters can move faster than speeding bullet. Major asspull. I am disappointed . If only Kishi would have been a better writer, he wouldn't have ended the fight and played out the fight much much better.

5. Kirin: Why create ridiculous jutsu which you can control a lightning with your hands to strike down your enemies. Sasuke even used a tiger seal at penis arc fighting Naruto, Sai, Yamato and Sakura. There was no clouds when Sasuke first attempted to use this jutsu. I was hoping for a Katon jutsu similar to Amaterasu. Fail Kishi. Heating the atmosphere with heat to create clouds would take hours. I'm not a damn meteorologist but which idiot would fall for this?

6. Susanoo: Wtf is this gundam trollbot that is defensive capabilities immune to everything and having attack power wiping out everything. Uber sharingan troll. Look back to Part 1 mangekyou sharingan.

7. Transfer powers through Sharingan: NO MORE SHARINGAN BULLSHIT!!! It's unexplained how Itachi transferred mangekyou sharingan to Sasuke. Quit trolling Kishi. You are losing your fans!

8. Pain reviving entire Konoha: Complete bullshit. No one should have the power to revive anyone. What a total mood kill. The story would develop if Kishi kept killing off people instead of asspull revival.

9. Eye of the Moon Plan: Retarded scheme created by Madara to control the world so he can non-stop wank onto illusional fairy tale world he creates with giant Haxxed Mangekyou Sharingan bullshit Tsukoyomi where everyone is forced to live in it. 

10. Naruto Hyperventilating: Naruto hyperventilates and chosen as the saviour of the world. What happened to the #1 hyperactive knucklehead ninja that beats all the odds and getting the respect he deserved like at end of the match against Neji. Luffy would never do this. He would be like "SHUTTTT UPPPPPP!!!! SASUKE!!! YOUR COMING BACK NOWW!!!" and be like "I DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR REVENGE!! YOUR MY FRIEND!!!" and presuade him to comeback like he did to Nico Robin. The old Naruto would have also done this.

11. Danzo SharingArm is the most retarded thing I've ever seen. Why not have 10 Byakugan on his left arm so he'll practically have no blind spots. With so many sharingan used at once, he should be drained out of chakra less than a minute. Kakashi drops to the ground after sharingan usage from most of his battles.

12. Hawk Summon, where the hell did he get this summon? It's a complete ass-pull and PNJ usage to the max.

13. Sasuke going MUAHAHAHAHA IM GONNA REVENGE MY CLAN BY KILLING YOU ALLZ0R. Seriously, really Kishi? There is so many other bad ass villains and you make Sasuke look like total batshit psycho.

14. Juubi: Combining all bijuus to create a 10 fail fox with Rinnegan and Sharingan all in one. After the Juubi finishes it's transformation, he's going to fuse with all the boss summon and rape their masters in their sleep. Madara then is going to fuse with the haxxed Juubi to become another Flyzen(Aizen) like it's some bastardized Hollowfication.

15. Edo Tensei and Talk no Jutsu: Kishi is so lame that he had to revive all the bad ass ninjas and reuse them. Boring... It's better if Madara planned to take on entire world with his tailed beasts. It would have been so much better.

16. Ginkaku & Kinkaku: I dropped Naruto off my list right after I saw lame-ass Kinkaku and Ginkaku with their bullshit "living inside Kyubi for 2 weeks" and "saying your favorite word and you get sucked into a jar" ability. Kishi you suck. I used to respect you and now I want to reward you by taking a dump in your face and give you a chocolate sundae.

I only wrote up to Ginkaku/Kinkaku because I dropped the series after that. *My Verdict*: Kishi is a terrible writer and I'm a firm believer that I can write better than he could. 
Here is my rating,
*Naruto Part 1*: 7/10
*Naruto Part 2*: 1/10

Overall, it's 4/10.


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## sculeanca (Apr 25, 2011)

What bothers me is that when people die they should stay dead. This way Neji, Choji, Gaara should of stayed dead since they were give honorable and likable fights and respectively deaths. 

Also at the end of part one I thought that part two was supposed to be about jinchurikis and akatsuki but instead we get the chase after Sasuke and the jins getting captured of panel, no flashbacks, no nothing. 

Also I have issues with Kakuzu, Orochimaru and Deidara's deaths. Kakuzu should have retreated and fight another day, Orochimaru was badly handled and Deidara didn't need to fight Sasuke. 
The whole prophecy thing and that only half of the fox was sealed. Pain having somehow the bodies of the people Jiraya met in his life. What was the point of this and how was this even accomplished, did Nagato follow Jiraya?

Sasuke wanting revenge doesn't bother me that much but the way he is doing it is. What happened to the one who was top of the class, did he forget how to be a ninja? 

Danzo hiding in the basement, Tsunade not getting a chance to fight Pain, Naruto fighting Pain alone, of course that was cool, but making an entire village look useless was bad. The same when he went to see Nagato, he was given the opportunity to go alone which was dumb in my opinion. Nagato being crippled and not fighting Naruto, but instead reviving those who died which made 5 months a complete waste. If it was needed for him to have a change of heart than I would rather see him fight against Madara. I think it would have been natural if someone blamed Naruto for the destruction of the village and all the casualties if that were the case. Somehow it seems the whole village forgot why it happened.

Kakashi and Yamato disobeying orders and going to the land of Iron, introduction of samurais, for me they would of been more interesting if they were ninjas, Jugo not dieing when the time was right. The introduction of Jubi. 

Kisame's sword having a mouth, giggling, growing and being able to choose, instead of just being a weapon. 
Danzo's right arm and eventually his death.
Naruto not being told about the war, and instead he is sent to hunt animals. His beast mode. Kisame not killing at least Aoba and Motoi before being taken out.

Kabuto revivng characters that we have seen already fight. Also looking like a snake and having a summon named Manda 2, what ran out of names. Yamata being captured like he is nothing.   

Gaara being both a general of army and a division. What about Baki is he out of the story cause he can be a division general. Mifune being a general. The headbands, now I'm at the jacket to see where is the ninja from. I'd rather keep their original headbands and print the shinobi symbol on the jacket. The edos being talked to death. Kin and Gin having fox's chakra, for me it would have been better if they were in the past the former 2 and 8 tails. The 7 swordsmen being disbanded. Zetsu being called white Zetsu and Black Zetsu like two different people. Naruto not giving a damn about reason and go on the battlefield, at the same time making 8 people look like trash, 2 of whom  as seen in previous chapter can go in butterfly mode.

These are the things that I'm bothered with. If by chance someone reads this, thank you.


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## tori22 (Apr 25, 2011)

violentrl said:


> I'm not saying that I can write than Kishi, if were to start from scratch and fix up bunch of plot holes, it would definately make the manga better than it already is. Ginkaku/Kinkaku ruined the series so much that it was unbearable and I unfortunately had to drop the series.
> Edo Tensei war is ridiculous enough as it is, I was thinking of making the current war(Bijuu war) a starting point of a *new world* that Naruto and his crew will face. I like the idea of Kabuto becoming the final villain. He's very secretive and a former spy of Akatsuki and someday surpass Orochimaru. He also has vast overall knowledge and he is a cold calculated character, even more so than Madara. It keeps the series unexpected and drag the series(in a good way). He might not have raw destructive powers but, being manipulative, he'll create conflict between one village against another, he'll make his move then. As of now, I can't seem to find someone other than Madara being the final boss, even though he's incredibly lame 90 year old man who got embarrassed by Shodai and Yondaime. Right now, it's just too predictable. Right now, his character is being trolled by giving him a haxxed jutsu like Edo Tensei.
> 
> I just have plenty of things to rant about. This will be long so bear with me.
> ...



Ight well I technically don't agree with most of the things you brought up but I liked the way you didn't turn out to be a troll, and that most of them were pretty reasonable. Anyway, I'm actually too lazy to quote them all so just read this paragraph. Also excuse bad grammar if there is any.

It's not like he doesn't have the balls to kill anyone off you know. I in fact DONT want some of the characters to die. It is true that the story will develop, but seriously I mean did you REALLY want kakashi dead? Same with Gaara, after only 2 fights you guys wanna kill him off? Choji I actually like him but that's just me and I understand why the rest of the world wants him dead. As for the sharingan, I kind of agree that the transferring thing was kind of wierd but I didn't consider that an asspull. The genjutsu was an ability that the mangekyo sharingan had, not the sharingan. The thing is genjutsu is one of the main styles of fighting in the series and I'm actually glad that kishi elaborated on it. Also about that thing with naruto's fight with Neji, the reason he was able to use the ninetailed fox's chakra was because it wasn't his own chakra, it was the nine tailed fox's. NARUTO'S chakra stopped flowing but he could still use the nine tailed fox's chakra since it's not HIS and it's coming from his body. Naruto being a jinchurikki is a special case, and since jinchurikki have other beings inside of themselves they can bipass some of those situations. It's like when Killer Bee broke out of Sasuke's genjutsu. As for the cursemark, it didn't actually give the user any real abilities besides giving them "more chakra". I'd say that the curse seal 2 was cool because it gave them a unique form and elaborated more on their abilities. Thus, I'd say that curse seal _1_ was more of a "super saiyan ability" than curse seal 2. As for the bird sasuke summoned, I'd say that would be an asspull.


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## violentrl (Apr 25, 2011)

tori22 said:


> It's not like he doesn't have the balls to kill anyone off you know. I in fact DONT want some of the characters to die. It is true that the story will develop, but seriously I mean did you REALLY want kakashi dead? Same with Gaara, after only 2 fights you guys wanna kill him off? Choji I actually like him but that's just me and I understand why the rest of the world wants him dead.


Well, whatever makes the manga better, it's better than reviving them in an unrealistic manner. I don't know why Nagato couldn't revive Yahiko, it's weird. Naruto has this "new generation surpassing the old", it makes sense if guys like Kakashi and Choza died.


> As for the sharingan, I kind of agree that the transferring thing was kind of wierd but I didn't consider that an asspull. The genjutsu was an ability that
> the mangekyo sharingan had, not the sharingan.


Now the Sharingan can do more and more things without being explained. Next thing you know it's gonna heal people like Orihime by some weird time/space Sharingan jutsu.



> The thing is genjutsu is one of the main styles of fighting in the series and I'm actually glad that kishi elaborated on it.


Orochimaru got ridiculously wtfpwned, it's not funny. Maybe Bijuu's can fight them but I doubt guys like Sarutobi or Jiraiya got escape one once they're caught. 



> Also about that thing with naruto's fight with Neji, the reason he was able to use the ninetailed fox's chakra was because it wasn't his own chakra, it was the nine tailed fox's. NARUTO'S chakra stopped flowing but he could still use the nine tailed fox's chakra since it's not HIS and it's coming from his body.


He couldn't use chakra anymore, it was sealed off. The fight could have been written better if Neji didn't use 64 palms then and managed to learn it against a fight with Kidomaru. I just thought it made Hyuga clan less special by going against the logic, bijuu's help or not.


> Naruto being a jinchurikki is a special case, and since jinchurikki have other beings inside of themselves they can bipass some of those situations. It's like when Killer Bee broke out of Sasuke's genjutsu.


I'm fine with bijuu's helping out by breaking the genjutsu but not re-opening the chakra points. It makes the bijuu smart enough to target which points to re-activate, which requires the byakugan, even though it's already been sealed.



> As for the cursemark, it didn't actually give the user any real abilities besides giving them "more chakra". I'd say that the curse seal 2 was cool because it gave them a unique form and elaborated more on their abilities. Thus, I'd say that curse seal _1_ was more of a "super saiyan ability" than curse seal 2.


I remember Sasuke getting stronger and faster than his base form as he blitzed through Zaku in the Chunin exam. I doubt he could have win against Zaku and Dosu, they wouldn't be scared of him. There was no point of cursed seal 2 if it were only to make you stronger than regular CS, they could have rather permanently change the user's appearance with the "darkness consuming them". It's merely a seal, similar to Neji's curse, why give multiple stages? Kishi could have just buff the current CS instead of making his seals look ridiculous. The next thing you know, Naruto's Kyubi seal will have level 2 seal to further add some trolling. Wait a minute, Minato's appearance after releasing 8 tails is also an ass-pull and a PNJ. If Minato is inside Naruto to hold back the seal, would he return to the world when 9 tails is eventually released? Weird logic.


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## 24 Hours (Apr 29, 2011)

kishi overhyped some characters then trash them like a fodder, just look at Hanzo.  I am sure Pain & Itachi fans will be disappoint after seeing their defeat, especially those who still think Pain > Madara and Itachi > Sasuke


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## Mio Akiyama (Apr 30, 2011)

My only current compliant is lack of Sasuke.
How long do they plan to keep him sitting on his ass blindfolded with Zetsu as his "babysitter"?


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## Escargon (May 1, 2011)

*The only complaint i have is that the young ninjas are in god mode. They would instant kill that skilled guy who runned the middleninja battles back in the start of the manga.

Thats my only complain.*


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## Pseudo (May 2, 2011)

*Wow I think I've read the worst Arc in Naruto history.*

The Kage Summit Arc is terrible. I at first had a meh reaction to the whole thing, but after watching the Anime, I fully realized how bad it was. From Sasuke's attack, to Bee and Kisame's showdown it was abysmal.


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## Bitch (May 2, 2011)

This war is the worst arc in Naruto history.


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## Raidoton (May 2, 2011)

Kage Summit arc was great, so many new characters, abilities, weapons... <3

And yeah, the war arc is even better


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## Aeiou (May 2, 2011)

Not another one of these "whine & bitch" threads


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## Fleet Admiral Akainu (May 2, 2011)

The Sai/Sasuke arc was the worst. If it weren't for KN4 it would have been the biggest bore fest in history. All the characters lacked personality, slooww paced, pointless overall with how it ended.

Kage Summit has characters, plot, fights, etc. Its only Sasuke's stupidity that makes it look bad.


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## GrandLordAtos (May 2, 2011)

This just in: All arcs are expected to be gold by some yet don't hit the mark for every last individual's tastes.

This and more at 11.


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## Eternal Pein (May 2, 2011)

Aeion said:


> Not another one of these "whine & bitch" threads



I'm going with this 
Can you go back to trolling the Lounge please


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## Scizor (May 2, 2011)

Funny, when I read it it was good

lolperspectiveandopinions


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## Killer Zylos Wolf (May 2, 2011)

What's this...someone complaining about the manga, I swear there's a thread for something like that...oh wait there is:




I disagree with your opinion by the way. I thought the Kage Summit was great.


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## Oturan (May 2, 2011)

ThePsuedo said:


> The Kage Summit Arc is terrible. I at first had a meh reaction to the whole thing, but after watching the Anime, I fully realized how bad it was. From Sasuke's attack, to Bee and Kisame's showdown it was abysmal.





cool story bro.


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## BrightlyGoob (May 2, 2011)

Eternal Pein said:


> Can you go back to trolling the Lounge please



.


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## Jak N Blak (May 2, 2011)

Naruto is lacking too much Part 2 fights! Like wtf yo? I have to go watch the frikin MOVIES to get some Part 2 Naruto fights. Deidara fight? Disgrace. Kakuzu fight? Short as hell. Orochimaru fight? Naruto was no longer fighting when he went four-tails. Pain fight? Cool. Kyuubi fight? Kool. Gimme more bitches!


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## Disaresta (May 2, 2011)

Lol you must not have read this arc yet OP :ho


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## Disaresta (May 2, 2011)

My complaint is this hole arc 

mmm thats just what I wanted, trolled, recycled villains, with bits of the worst dialog in the series, combined with a protagonist who has now officially made my shit list, sign me up. We need sasuke back, talk shit on him all day long but this crap didn't happen when he was around...


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## Skywalker (May 2, 2011)

Never seen this thread before.

Go troll another section.


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## Pervy Fox (May 2, 2011)

Thats nice.


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## Skeith (May 2, 2011)

In my Opinion

Itachi's hunt arc/Hebi Arc (or whatever you want to call it) was the worst when I first read it and still bad when I reread it.


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## Veo (May 2, 2011)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> The Sai/Sasuke arc was the worst. If it weren't for KN4 it would have been the biggest bore fest in history. All the characters lacked personality, slooww paced, pointless overall with how it ended.
> 
> Kage Summit has characters, plot, fights, etc. Its only Sasuke's stupidity that makes it look bad.



This 100%... if only we could see the Konoha rookies having more panel...


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## 実 優翔 (May 2, 2011)

Super Pervert said:


> cool story bro.



I agree with this image.


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## Kyu (May 2, 2011)

ThePsuedo said:


> The Kage Summit Arc is terrible. I at first had a meh reaction to the whole thing, but after watching the Anime, I fully realized how bad it was. From Sasuke's attack, to Bee and Kisame's showdown it was abysmal.



Your point being...?


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## Pseudo (May 2, 2011)

Although I think the Sai/Sasuke are was meh, I still hate the Kage arc. The War arc is good with exception of Kakashi's off panel.


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## jso (May 2, 2011)

Penis arc is the worst for me. Turtle Island arc also sucked apart from the awesome flashback and Kisame's GARly death. I wish more time was spent on Dark Naruto, and then I'd even be satisfied with Kyuubi getting beatdown so quick. Counting animals = seriously?


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## violentrl (May 2, 2011)

jso said:


> Penis arc is the worst for me. Turtle Island arc also sucked apart from the awesome flashback and Kisame's GARly death. I wish more time was spent on Dark Naruto, and then I'd even be satisfied with Kyuubi getting beatdown so quick. Counting animals = seriously?



If I recall, the penis arc was the Sasuke rescue pt 2, then it would have that be that or the Ginkaku/Kinkaku battle. Both are utterly


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## Olivia (May 2, 2011)

I personally don't like the Sasuke and Sai arc the most, it was boring for me. The Go-Kage summit arc wasn't bad, just not one of the bests. Personally out of Part II I've liked the Hidan and Kakuzu arc, and the Pain Invasion arc the best.


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## blacksword (May 2, 2011)

look another flagellant.


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## Skywalker (May 2, 2011)

The troll is strong with this one.


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## Orxon (May 2, 2011)

Nothing is worse than penis arc, sorry OP.


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## USSR (May 2, 2011)

Small complaint over Sharingan's overpoweredness. If you guys want me to elaborate as to why, just ask me.


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## Necessary Evil (May 2, 2011)

The kage art was really nice i really enjoyed reading it.The arc tho that im not enjouing at all is this one...almost all the characters get trolled :/


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## Nikushimi (May 2, 2011)

Kage Summit Arc was all right. There was some cool shit, like Sasuke vs. Raikage and Sasuke vs. Danzou, and Bee vs. Kisame wasn't as bad as some people want to pretend like it was. This current war arc isn't that bad, either; aside from a lot of trolling and jobbing, we're getting some neat exposition, and the pacing is good.

The Pain Arc/Gutsy Ninja Arc was the worst arc OF ALL TIME.

*Kanye shrug*


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## Disaresta (May 2, 2011)

^ you didn't like the ark villain was beaten by TnJ or that he brought everyone he killed back to life with a Deus Ex Machina?


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## Nikushimi (May 2, 2011)

sazon uchiha said:


> ^ you didn't like the ark villain was beaten by TnJ or that he brought everyone he killed back to life with a Deus Ex Machina?



One of many reasons. Lol.


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## Xerces (May 2, 2011)

I'm baffled at how people see the Kage Summit Arc as being one of the _'worst'_ 


Introduction of new, interesting characters
Essential character development
Amazing fights
Plot progession
Team 7 reunion

With the arc having all of these aspects, it should be considered one of the _best_. Moreover, people seem to be misinterpreting their own hatred towards Sasuke, as an overall lack of arc quality. Consequently, it would not surprise any rational reader, that this arc would be a controversial one. 

These things tend to happen when the Uchiha run right through the fanbase's favorite characters.


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## Disaresta (May 2, 2011)

^ People are sad to admit that any ark focusing on sasuke is better than anything


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## Jak N Blak (May 2, 2011)

Confining the Jinchuuriki Arc was my fave of Part 2. Naruto vs Kyuubi was the grandest fight in the manga. (Gedo vs *secret* could be considered better however)
Konan was impressive. Kabuto's return was cool too.

Invasion of Pain comes second- Naruto becoming Kage level was lovely. Konoha being destroyed? Most talked about shit ever. Chibaku tensei? Best jutsu ever. Taka vs Bee was epic too.

Then its Kage Summit for me. Raikage replaced Itachi as my second favorite character after seeing Raiton armor and shit. Susanoo spam was awful to watch however, lol. But seeing Full-Susanoo with Amaterasu in its hand was still bad ass


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## SSGG (May 3, 2011)

Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> The Sai/Sasuke arc was the worst. If it weren't for KN4 it would have been the biggest bore fest in history. All the characters lacked personality, slooww paced, pointless overall with how it ended.


 
Pretty much this.^ KN4 was awesome but the rest of it was pretty meh. Though I did like learning a little about Sai and seeing him develop as a character, his intro was kinda dumb; it was only there to make Naruto have unnecessary tension with him right from the start.



Fleet Admiral Akainu said:


> Kage Summit has characters, plot, fights, etc. Its only Sasuke's *and Sakura's* stupidity that makes it look bad.


 
Fixed.


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## Addy (May 3, 2011)

i think the fights were good. plot was crap though.


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## Coldhands (May 3, 2011)

Well Kage Summit was pretty bad but Penis arc was worse. How can peope say that Kage Summit fights were good? They were just basically Sasuke spamming Susano as <insert Kage name here> was going to utterly rape him. And there was also that horrible Kisame vs. Bee. Sasuke vs. Danzo was decent, team 7 reunion was decent.


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## Mane (May 3, 2011)

What is this penis arc people speak of? Did I miss part of the manga or something


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## FearTear (May 3, 2011)

Mane said:


> What is this penis arc people speak of? Did I miss part of the manga or something



It's the second arc of shippuden, where to start:

-rookies busy with off-panel missions
-Kakashi in a hospital bed
-new character Yamato gives as a pointless NaruSaku hint
-new character Sai who -penis jokes aside- does nothing except being tnj'ed by Naruto
-Naruto's gayness for Sasuke in all its glory
-Sakura's improvements against Sasori, flushed down the toilet

Is it enough?


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## Saunion (May 3, 2011)

The Penis arc was ok for the most part but became awful in its conclusion, with the biggest feat of Gary Stuism in the entire manga when Sasuke curbstomped Team 7 and SUPPRESSED THE F****ING KYUUBI. It honestly read like fanfiction, like the wildest dreams of internet fanboys creeping up in canon. Then Kishimoto had to top it off with Naruto crying on his knees lamenting about his weakness in a poor imitation of Gon from HxH, because that's just what the character needed. Another reminder after the end of the rescue Gaara arc that Naruto trained two years for _absolutely nothing_.


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## Tion (May 4, 2011)

Wow, really Kishimoto? Madara enters the fray _before _Sasuke? Well I guess you're supposed to hype your lead character as much as you can. Naruto who?


----------



## Mashiba Ryō (May 4, 2011)

I know most of these have been said a million times before but I need to get it off my chest.

There are way too many haxxed ninja, it's reaching DBZ levels of rediculousness. (Except DBZ could get away with it as it was always mean't to be an over the top shounen.)

All the characters I actually care about are left in fodderland. 

I wish Kishi would stop bringing everyone back to life, it takes away the impact when the next person "dies". 

Even though I like Naruto I can't bring myself to feel the bond between him and Saskue that's been so heavily emphasised since part 1. 

Beleive it.


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## G (May 4, 2011)

^true... 
That's really annoying..


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## Mane (May 4, 2011)

FearTear said:


> It's the second arc of shippuden, where to start:
> 
> -rookies busy with off-panel missions
> -Kakashi in a hospital bed
> ...



Oh riiiight...

Yeah that sucked.


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## crystalblade13 (May 4, 2011)

at least 4 tails vs. oro was cool in that arc. way to much pointless chitchat though.


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## Sesha (May 7, 2011)

FearTear said:


> It's the second arc of shippuden, where to start:
> 
> -rookies busy with off-panel missions
> -Kakashi in a hospital bed
> ...



You forgot:

 - The story stopping dead in its tracks for a lengthy fight with a berserk Naruto, using his new power up made of black pen scratches.
 - Sakura being knocked out by Kabuto's buttocks.
 - Sakura acting dumber than usual and running towards berserker Naruto and getting pimpsmacked across the chops (gloriously depicted in the anime as her falling in a triple barrel roll.)
 - Naruto's master plan of bringing Sasuke back by... rushing blindly into Orochimaru's base without an actual plan.
 - Sai's utterly forgettable and horribly thought-out back story, and his predictable and equally forgettable heel-face-turn.
 - Sasuke's long-awaited return in full sailor outfit, AHOY CAP'N YARRR
 - Their reuniting, filling an entire chapter with reaction panels, culminating in two full page spreads of Naruto's and Sasuke's undetailed and unshaded faces.
 - Sasooke-kewn utterly stomping Team 7 despite all of them supposedly being highly capable shinobi.
 - The Sauce entering Naruto's mind and completely subduing the 9-tails. 
 - Naruto undermining his entire character and fucking dropping on his knees and crying 'aboobooboo poor thing', because his master plan of rushing in blindly and white-knighting his lady love failing spectacularly.
 - Sai ending the arc with "It's good to have friends. END OF ARC, INSERT DISK TWO".
 - The art generally sucking copious amounts of sweaty male ass cheeks.
 - The whole arc being extremely boring and redundant, with fights as involving as rock'em sock'em robots.

That's about it, I think.


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## Addy (May 7, 2011)

i hate that thing about that chapter with that thing.

it was so annoying


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## crystalblade13 (May 7, 2011)

Addy said:


> i hate that thing about that chapter with that thing.
> 
> it was so annoying



my god, i hated that exact same part too!


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## Addy (May 7, 2011)

crystalblade13 said:


> my god, i hated that exact same part too!



i know. you were like "this is good" but then comes that thing and your like "fuck it's that thing ".


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## FearTear (May 7, 2011)

Sesha said:


> You forgot:
> 
> - The story stopping dead in its tracks for a lengthy fight with a berserk Naruto, using his new power up made of black pen scratches.
> - Sakura being knocked out by Kabuto's buttocks.
> ...



Oh wait, one more thing (I remember this from the anime, don't know if it's a filler or canon scene):

KABUTO VS THE BEES! 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuipsQhWjZg&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Sesha (May 7, 2011)

I'll give the anime one thing, it created some pretty funny moments from that arc. The aforementioned Sakura barrel roll is another one of them.

One could make a pretty good MST3K-type show just from Shippuden episodes alone.


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## crystalblade13 (May 8, 2011)

Addy said:


> i know. you were like "this is good" but then comes that thing and your like "fuck it's that thing ".



Isnt it crazy how that can just ruin the whole chapter!


----------



## Maerala (May 8, 2011)

FearTear said:


> Oh wait, one more thing (I remember this from the anime, don't know if it's a filler or canon scene):
> 
> KABUTO VS THE BEES!
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuipsQhWjZg&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]



Hinata did practically the exact same thing back in the Part I anime fillers.


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## Supersonic Strawhat (May 8, 2011)

What was Danzo's point? I'm having trouble figuring that out.


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## FearTear (May 8, 2011)

Supersonic Strawhat said:


> What was Danzo's point? I'm having trouble figuring that out.



To be killed by Sasuke, letting him enter true darkness.

That's it.


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## Supersonic Strawhat (May 8, 2011)

FearTear said:


> To be killed by Sasuke, letting him enter true darkness.
> 
> That's it.



Aye. Was afraid of that. That's the word.


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## Addy (May 8, 2011)

crystalblade13 said:


> Isnt it crazy how that can just ruin the whole chapter!



i know man, but sometimes it ruins an entire arc.

i am surprised that no one else is complaining about that thing.


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## FearTear (May 8, 2011)

Addy said:


> i know man, but sometimes it ruins an entire arc.
> 
> i am surprised that no one else is complaining about that thing.



That thing > that jutsu


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## Addy (May 9, 2011)

FearTear said:


> That thing > that jutsu



but i hate both


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## SSGG (May 12, 2011)

FearTear said:


> To be killed by Sasuke, letting him enter true darkness.
> 
> That's it.


 
God, what a waste of a character. He could have been an awesome vs. Naruto villain, especially with him trying to control the Kyuubi and all. The fact that Madara revealed that turned out to be utterly pointless, because we never really see Danzo trying to actively pursue Kyuubi(minus the crap about keeping Naruto in the village, which failed anyway...).


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## FearTear (May 12, 2011)

SSGG said:


> God, what a waste of a character. He could have been an awesome vs. Naruto villain, especially with him trying to control the Kyuubi and all. The fact that Madara revealed that turned out to be utterly pointless, because we never really see Danzo trying to actively pursue Kyuubi(minus the crap about keeping Naruto in the village, which failed anyway...).



Not to mention his "reign" as Hokage. What did he do, aside for declare Sasuke Public Enemy Number One?

Nothing.


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## xXHancockXx (May 12, 2011)

I hate that some people are too much overpowered, for example Naruto and Minato. But more than everything I hate the sexism in this manga. I think every halfway sensible reader can see that Kishimoto does not like women. Sakura is always crying and crying. I mean showing some tears is completely alright but not ever so often. Tsunades reign is a disaster. It?s her fault that Konoha-Gakure was destroyed by Pain, but no one mentioned the fact that she saved nearly all people, who were involved.


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## Joker J (May 14, 2011)

I don't like how Kishi trolled Kisame making him stop for no reason to put the scroll in a shark know that he could have kept going and what have made it to the ocean and home free.


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## falsepod (May 14, 2011)

Joker J said:


> I don't like how Kishi trolled Kisame making him stop for no reason to put the scroll in a shark know that he could have kept going and what have made it to the ocean and home free.



Not sure how that was a troll. He was playing it safe. He no longer had Samehada and had to be sure that even if he went down the info still got to Madara.


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## navy (May 16, 2011)

Kisame is one of the few akatsuki kishi did justice to.


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## Sesha (May 16, 2011)

I would agree, up until the point where he transformed into a fishman, his sword became sentient, and we got a hastily put-together backstory summing up his motivations. Not to mention he died just five minutes before the big war. But besides that he was pretty good, despite his lack of depth until the very end.


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## FearTear (May 16, 2011)

Sesha said:


> I would agree, up until the point where he transformed into a fishman, his sword became sentient, and we got an *inconsistent backstory* summing up his motivations. Not to mention he died just five minutes before the big war. But besides that he was pretty good, despite his lack of depth until the very end.



I still don't get the meaning of his flashback (not the one with Itachi, the previous): I remember there was a girl who tried to befriend with him, then a fat-human-fish who was his mentor, then Ibiki, then again his mentor killed... seriously, that flashback was a mess


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## navy (May 16, 2011)

FearTear said:


> I still don't get the meaning of his flashback (not the one with Itachi, the previous): I remember there was a girl who tried to befriend with him, then a fat-human-fish who was his mentor, then Ibiki, then again his mentor killed... seriously, that flashback was a mess



I think you shoul re read it.
Its chapter 507.

Reply if you still dont understand it.


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## tori22 (May 18, 2011)

navy said:


> Kisame is one of the few akatsuki kishi did justice to.



Id like to disagree actually. His fight was PREEETY short. I love naruto and I actually disagree with a lot of people in this thread because I actually like the story now, but I dont wanna be a troll so Im just gonna say my complaints. I think a lot of the fights recently have gotten cut short. Hanzo vs Mifune, Kisame vs Gai. They were all ONE CHAPTER! ONE CHAPTER!!! ONE FRICKIN CHAPTER! GODDAMMIT! *kicks wall


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## navy (May 19, 2011)

Kisame already showed what he had vs KB

And this was the third time Gai fought Kisame
1 chapter was enough in my opinion


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## Supersonic Strawhat (May 19, 2011)

navy said:


> Kisame already showed what he had vs KB
> 
> And this was the third time Gai fought Kisame
> 1 chapter was enough in my opinion



I would rather Guy had fought Kisame for his last battle, personally, but only if it wasn't done in a half-ass way that shoved the confrontation in there for the sake of obligility between the two's rivalry.

Kishimoto: Hey! I got an idea! Let's shove Guy into the story arc he has absolutely no business, rhyme, or reason being in, literally making him come right the fuck out of no-where so that he can beat Kisame! As the author I could've set this up before hand to make it not look contrived and stupid, but I've got far too much money to worry about quality!


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## tori22 (May 22, 2011)

navy said:


> Kisame already showed what he had vs KB
> 
> And this was the third time Gai fought Kisame
> 1 chapter was enough in my opinion



Yea but it was his FINAL Fight. I think it should have been longer, so that he could have fully exploited everything he had against Guy. Kisame showed he could merge with his sword in his fight against KB but he didn't really exploit it as much as I wanted him to.



Supersonic Strawhat said:


> I would rather Guy had fought Kisame for his last battle, personally, but only if it wasn't done in a half-ass way that shoved the confrontation in there for the sake of obligility between the two's rivalry.
> 
> Kishimoto: Hey! I got an idea! Let's shove Guy into the story arc he has absolutely no business, rhyme, or reason being in, literally making him come right the fuck out of no-where so that he can beat Kisame! As the author I could've set this up before hand to make it not look contrived and stupid, but I've got far too much money to worry about quality!



Guy fit into the arc just fine dude. He was one of the bodyguards for naruto on the island, i don't see what's bad about that.


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## FearTear (May 22, 2011)

tori22 said:


> Guy fit into the arc just fine dude. He was one of the bodyguards for naruto on the island, i don't see what's bad about that.



Maybe the fact Kishimoto skipped the scene where Naruto and the others boarded the ship or the fact that Gai was shown in only two panels before Kisame appeared:


----------



## tori22 (May 22, 2011)

FearTear said:


> Maybe the fact Kishimoto skipped the scene where Naruto and the others boarded the ship or the fact that Gai was shown in only two panels before Kisame appeared:



Why did he need to show it? They were headed towards the island. Not everything had to be put onscreen. And as for that other point, Gai was shown before he fought Kisame confronting his "inner darkness" or whatever it was called. And then he fought Kisame. Honestly that really wasn't an asspull.


----------



## LS20 (May 22, 2011)

Guy being on that boat indeed made no sense. He claimed he came a long so he could cheer Naruto on in his training or something like that...since when? Not to mention we were given no prior knowledge of him accompanying Naruto. Then all of sudden he just appears on the boat seemingly like he came out of nowhere. Of course then we automatically knew he was clearly suddenly shoved in there so he could fight Kiame, making the whole ordeal extremely predictable. And even then it didn't stop the whole thing from feeling incredibly forced in when the finally fought. The whole thing was just bad.


----------



## Supersonic Strawhat (May 23, 2011)

tori22 said:


> Guy fit into the arc just fine dude. He was one of the bodyguards for naruto on the island, i don't see what's bad about that.



No. I think that's bullshit. Him just being on the island does not count as proper set-up for a confrontation like that. Going from a chapter that absolutely nothing to do with Guy to one that starts out with him confronting the two people who knew about Naruto's training, being SHOCKED that he had no idea it was happening, and hastily deciding to immediately go toward the area all in the span of two panels does not count as a decent set-up. It was obviously shoe horned in there. If you can't see why I think that's bad than your standards for the quality of the series are too low.



LS20 said:


> Guy being on that boat indeed made no sense. He claimed he came a long so he could cheer Naruto on in his training or something like that...since when? Not to mention we were given no prior knowledge of him accompanying Naruto. Then all of sudden he just appears on the boat seemingly like he came out of nowhere. Of course then we automatically knew he was clearly suddenly shoved in there so he could fight Kiame, making the whole ordeal extremely predictable. And even then it didn't stop the whole thing from feeling incredibly forced in when the finally fought. The whole thing was just bad.



Exactly. If any effort was actually made to disguise the fact that Guy was jammed in there just to fight Kisame then we have a problem because it didn't work AT ALL.


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## tori22 (May 25, 2011)

R u guys serious I mean come on. It's kind of obvious I mean come on it was implied that he was there as a body guard. They wouldn't just leave naruto and bee on the island alone now would they? 

Seriously so now whenever something happens off screen or something in naruto every1 will call it an asspull?


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## Thdyingbreed (May 25, 2011)

The current lack of Sasuke just have him take off the damn bandages already and let him rampage.


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## Supersonic Strawhat (May 27, 2011)

tori22 said:


> R u guys serious I mean come on. It's kind of obvious I mean come on it was implied that he was there as a body guard. They wouldn't just leave naruto and bee on the island alone now would they?
> 
> Seriously so now whenever something happens off screen or something in naruto every1 will call it an asspull?



We're not talking about everytime it happens. We're talking about how it happened THIS time. And this instance was most definately an asspull.

Stop talking like a surfer.


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## tori22 (May 28, 2011)

Supersonic Strawhat said:


> We're not talking about everytime it happens. We're talking about how it happened THIS time. And this instance was most definately an asspull.
> 
> Stop talking like a surfer.



I know I was just speaking to people in general. And how am i talking like a surfer? Regardless, I really have to disagree on this one.


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## jimbob631 (May 28, 2011)

*The war has been sloppy*

I really think the execution Kishi has put into this arc is poor.  Now that round 1 of the war is over the edos that are left are Itachi, Nagato, Chiyo, Kimmimaro, the kages, the jinchuriki, maybe the swordsmen and like two unknown edo.  It just seems random, it should have been only the powerhouses left, including jinchuriki and Kimmimiaro is a little silly imo.  It should have been Itachi, Nagato, a powered up Hanzo, and maybe the kages left.  Also what was up with Gaara and Onoki going to fight the kages and having a whole moment, only to retreat without anything happening.  I have no problem with the retreat but then it shouldn't have been built up as anything yet.

Not to mention, the Kin Gin bros were just annoying and their panel time could have been used on already seen Akatsuki members like Sasori, Deidara, and Kakuzu.


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## tgm2x (May 28, 2011)

Kakashi is about to go on a rampage Oh wait


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## Namikaze-Minato (May 28, 2011)

i'd like to see a whole chapter with kakashi going off. he said he was about to like 10 fucking chapters ago, and then all of a sudden the fighting stops


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## Aeiou (May 28, 2011)

I don't agree with the powerhouses part. All the Edos that are left are important characters in the story that will fill the void that we don't know about yet (Kages, Jinchuuriki). I do agree on the misleading build up though. Really confusing how Kishi built up Gaara/Onoki and Kakashi... just to make them all retreat. In Kakashi's case, his rampage hype was huge, and all of a sudden we see him with his squad. I felt that was going to be a Kakashi-only thing...


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## jimbob631 (May 28, 2011)

Aeion said:


> I don't agree with the powerhouses part. All the Edos that are left are important characters in the story that will fill the void that we don't know about yet (Kages, Jinchuuriki). I do agree on the misleading build up though. Really confusing how Kishi built up Gaara/Onoki and Kakashi... just to make them all retreat. In Kakashi's case, his rampage hype was huge, and all of a sudden we see him with his squad. I felt that was going to be a Kakashi-only thing...



The jinchuriki and the kages make some sense, having Kimmimaro, Chiyo, and possibly the seven swordsmen left does not.


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## Palpatine (May 28, 2011)

What else is new?


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## Deleted member 45015 (May 28, 2011)

To be perfectly honest, I didn't mind Kinkaku and Ginkaku, but cutting out abruptly on the Seven Swordsmen and Kage battles after going out of the way to hype them was a pretty bad move.


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## Aiku (May 28, 2011)

As long as I get to see Itachi again, I don't care.


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## jso (May 28, 2011)

All the powerhouses are left. With the exception of Hanzo perhaps, but he got a nice surprisingly nice sendoff. But there's also some extras around. Not many edo's have been lost yet really.


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## truetomyself (May 28, 2011)

Fuck edos. I hope they're all (except Itachi and Nagato) gonna be off-paneled.


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## Aeiou (May 28, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> The jinchuriki and the kages make some sense, having Kimmimaro, Chiyo, and possibly the seven swordsmen left does not.



Chiyo may fight Sakura. 7 swordsmen were to help Suigetsu's development/fill the void Kishi has left since the beginning of the series. I have no say for Kimmimaro.


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## tori22 (May 29, 2011)

None of the seven swordsmen have been sealed obviously. They'll be back and they'll all get their own fights honestly. Same with the kage. And there are still plenty of people left. None of them were offpanelled. The only ones who were offpanneled were Kakuzu, Dan and Hizashi, but you never know we saw Dan free of the barrier thing so he might be coming back. Honestly you guys have little hope for kishi if you think he'd actually hype up some characters and never show them.


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## Hokage Sennin (May 29, 2011)

tgm2x said:


> Kakashi is about to go on a rampage Oh wait



Kishi! Why did you offpanel Kakashi's rampage!!!


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## FearTear (May 29, 2011)

Maybe we misunderstood everything.
Kakashi is angry with *the Edo Tensei Tecnique*, not with the swordmen.
I believe he's saving his rampage for Kabuto


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## Hokage Sennin (May 29, 2011)

^I do hope that is the case. Then we'll see him roflstomping Kabuto.


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## tori22 (May 29, 2011)

FearTear said:


> Maybe we misunderstood everything.
> Kakashi is angry with *the Edo Tensei Tecnique*, not with the swordmen.
> I believe he's saving his rampage for Kabuto



Of course it's the case. And if it's not then nothing significant must have happened if he did. Why would it get off paneled in the first place?


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## FearTear (May 29, 2011)

Hey guys, it's only me who's bothering on the fact Kurenai and Asuma's baby was introduced in a miserable flashback-panel?


----------



## MYJC (Jun 1, 2011)

*I'm sorry, but Raikage is right and Naruto is acting like a spoiled, arrogant brat*

Yeah. And before anyone says anything, I like Naruto as a character.

But be for real. Naruto, because of his messiah complex or whatever, thinks he somehow has the right to go against the orders of not only his superior (Tsunade) but against the wishes of the whole ninja world?! Naruto is an inexperienced teenage ninja, but yet he seems to think he somehow has a better idea of what's best of the world than the five Kages? Just because of some stupid prophecy? 

And furthermore, he's arrogant enough to think he alone can somehow stop this whole war by himself, defeat Madara, and somehow convince Sasuke to take his mind and get the whole world to forgive him? To make matters worse, he expects the WHOLE NINJA WORLD to risk being enslaved by Madara because of his whims?

Then, to top it off, he thinks he has the right to get into a fight with a Kage from another village and disregard Tsunade's orders?

Does anyone else besides me see how arrogant and obnoxious this is on Naruto's part? He basically expects the whole ninja world to risk their safety and simply bow down and do what he says. 

And somehow the Raikage is the bad guy because he won't have it? Because he's not willing to risk the fate of the ninja world because of Naruto's whim? Or because he's willing to put the good of the world over his own personal wishes?

Naruto is just too used to Tsunade letting him have his way I guess. I'm sorry but this kid needs some humility. He is not the Hokage yet and he doesn't have the right to risk the fate of the ninja world just so he can go try to save Sasuke and fulfill some vague prophecy. I don't think Naruto is in the right expecting the whole ninja world to do like Tsunade does and let him have his way all the time.

Killing Naruto is a little much but I think Raikage would be completely justified in knocking his ass out and dragging him back behind the barrier.


----------



## Sniffers (Jun 1, 2011)

Naruto's argument seems to be: "_I can't live with myself if people die protecting me even though the vast majority agree and want me to stay away. I don't care about what everybody else thinks is important or how much I'm risking a loss as I will do what I feel I want to do. I'm also confident that I can do it, since I'm awesome and dead people trust me._" 

But, yeah, I got the whiney brat vibe from him too. Though Raikage is going overboard as well. Tsunade seems like the only sensible person there. Killer B is just rolling with Naruto lol.


----------



## nightmare realm (Jun 1, 2011)

Honestly Naruto should realize that he is the alliance's ace in the hole per say, being one of their strongest fighters. He needs to sit and wait untill Madara releases Sauske onto the battlefield, otherwise he is kind of pust wasting his chakra and risking his life on fodder for the time being...


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## Descent of the Lion (Jun 1, 2011)

Welcome to the Naruto manga, and thank you for listening to the orientation.


Dude. . . Naruto has been this way since day uno.  In fact, that's why they DIDN'T want him to know. 

It's not arrogance. If Naruto had the power of a bathroom attendant he'd still wouldn't want people to die for him.


----------



## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

Link removed

You mean where he sticks to this instead of contradicting it?


----------



## Akira Kurusu (Jun 1, 2011)

^why people dismiss that is completely beyond me


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## YMICrazy (Jun 1, 2011)

Ya but do you really think he is safer in that cave or w/e where Madara can easily warp in? I mean Naruto thrashed his guards and left. Better on the battlefield with better protection then alone and isolated with crappy guards.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 1, 2011)

Naruto is just doing what is necessary it may seem harsh but Naruto above everybody in the alliance knows what a true threat Madara is you can't go into a battle half hearted not willing to risk everything It's like having a war winning weapon but being to afraid to use it because of risk of capture.


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## MYJC (Jun 1, 2011)

Iovan said:


> Link removed
> 
> You mean where he sticks to this instead of contradicting it?



Caring about your companions means doing what's best for them even if it's not what you want to do.

Naruto is putting his own emotional desire to participate in the war and stop people from dying over the fact that it's best for everybody if he stays out of it. He is not ACTUALLY helping by getting involved (since it will increase Madara's chances of capturing him), he's just making himself feel better.


----------



## Shadow_fox (Jun 1, 2011)

naruto is acting as any human would react. Jinchuuriki are considered tools that should just blindly follow orders and not feel anything, this is what the Raikage is saying. 

 He's an idiot who would throw away the lives of everyone to win. 

 Do you honestly expect him to follow orders from that kind of person? If so then you don't know what's been going on in naruto in 500 chapters.

  Naruto refuses to be a tool and fight for his own way. There's nothing bratty about that.

 Madara is coming after him? Big deal he would have come anyway, better to face them with allies then all alone. 

 Naruto is an important piece in this puzzle, not only is he part of Madara's plan but he is also the corner piece of the alliance, he's what's holding it in place. If he dies, the alliance will fall.


----------



## Skaddix (Jun 1, 2011)

YMICrazy said:


> Ya but do you really think he is safer in that cave or w/e where Madara can easily warp in? I mean Naruto thrashed his guards and left. Better on the battlefield with better protection then alone and isolated with crappy guards.



Read the manga. Madara had no idea where they were. Because the walls make it really hard to detect chakra. Zetsu informed him when they appeared out of nowhere.


----------



## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Caring about your companions means doing what's best for them even if it's not what you want to do.



Just like Obito wanting to save Rin over the safer/practical/"smart" choice of rushing with Kakashi to complete their mission.



> Naruto is putting his own emotional desire to participate in the war and stop people from dying over the fact that it's best for everybody if he stays out of it.



It is merely opinion that it would be best for everyone. Naruto is of the opinion that them dying while he does nothing is not for the best. This "greater good" shit is a slippery slope.



> He is not ACTUALLY helping by getting involved (since it will increase Madara's chances of capturing him), he's just making himself feel better.



Madara sure went and got Naruto soon as he found out right? I mean Madara could have went to take Naruto but didn't. He could have grabbed Naruto when he was resting during the Kage summit as well. Instead he spoke and had a conversation with Naruto...

Not to mention you can't let yourself be paralyzed by the fear of what could happen. Naruto went up against Akatsuki in the beginning of part 2 knowing full well they wanted to capture him. What's the difference now? People's bad memories? I thought so.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Caring about your companions means doing what's best for them even if it's not what you want to do.
> 
> Naruto is putting his own emotional desire to participate in the war and stop people from dying over the fact that it's best for everybody if he stays out of it. He is not ACTUALLY helping by getting involved (since it will increase Madara's chances of capturing him), he's just making himself feel better.



But you're assuming that being trapped somewhere is better for him. Maybe for a regular enemy, but this is Madara. It's better to use Naruto in a strategic way than to hide him. Trying to stop him from participating is what's causing problems.


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## MYJC (Jun 1, 2011)

0Fear said:


> But you're assuming that being trapped somewhere is better for him. Maybe for a regular enemy, but this is Madara. It's better to use Naruto in a strategic way than to hide him. Trying to stop him from participating is what's causing problems.



That's debatable, but the point is that it's not Naruto's decision to make. 

His own superiors, as well as the rest of the ninja world, have decided that it's best he sit this one out. What gives him the right to utterly and completely disregard what his commanders tell him to do?

It's arrogant that he thinks he knows better than them and expects the whole ninja world to go along with it.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Jun 1, 2011)

True but it is better for him to be an arrogant brat and stay true and consistent to his character of caring more about his friends than increasing the risk of losing the war, than him being smart. Consistency is important. This is a shonen so unfortunately you are going to get this type of character with these kind of values as protagonist.  Hit or miss, you are free to not like.


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## Descent of the Lion (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> That's debatable, but the point is that it's not Naruto's decision to make.
> 
> His own superiors, as well as the rest of the ninja world, have decided that it's best he sit this one out. What gives him the right to utterly and completely disregard what his commanders tell him to do?
> 
> It's arrogant that he thinks he knows better than them and expects the whole ninja world to go along with it.



Once again-- Welcome to Naruto.

He doesn't think he knows better than the ninja world. . . he just doesn't give a crap what they think. It's his character as it always been.


----------



## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Caring about your companions means doing what's best for them even if it's not what you want to do.


Thats exactly what Naruto is doing as a leader sometimes you make decisions which upset people and they might dislike you or hate you for but necessary decisions are like that sometimes they can't be universally popular if Naruto is going to be Hokage the decison like he has made to enter the war are going have to be made if he is going to act like a Hokage.



> Naruto is putting his own emotional desire to participate in the war and stop people from dying over the fact that it's best for everybody if he stays out of it. He is not ACTUALLY helping by getting involved (since it will increase Madara's chances of capturing him), he's just making himself feel better.


Not helping you can't be serious Naruto would be a massive asset to the army not only has he got top tier skills you factor in things like TKB where he can create a whole army of Kage level clones and then there is the multiple battle toads Naruto has as well he clearly has some major tactical advantages

While when they put him into hiding they put him into major danger as they isolated Bee and Naruto and if not for Naruto while the army was fighting  Madara could of come along with Kabuto, Zetsu and Sasuke  really I don't fancy there chances at least in the army they had lot of allies who had there backs


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## MossMan (Jun 1, 2011)

This is exactly the same kind of arguments people were having during the aftermath of the Pain fight.  There were some who argued that Naruto was a fool to face Nagato alone, but Naruto kept his cool and talked Nagato down in the end.  He's not the kind of kid to do things blindly anymore, he's grown stronger and wiser, and he can deliver more than words now.  I believe he has some kind of plan in mind.

I don't believe his plan will go as he expects it to, but this is a shinobi war, there are risks no matter what plan you follow.  But if Naruto's plan works, then it could save many lives.  Whereas if the alliance continues doing what they've been doing, more people will die, win or lose.  And it's looking pretty clear to me that the alliance is losing, badly.

Let's see what Naruto does, then we can criticize him later.  There's still too much we don't know, this is what I've been saying time and time again.


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## Olivia (Jun 1, 2011)

Since people seem to have missed it above, I'll post it myself:

*now that the 4th has passed away*."

Nuff said. Yes it may seem like Naruto is being selfish, but what do you expect him to do? What would you do in this situation? Would you be fine by sitting off to the side because your friends and family are literally dieing just so you can live? Would you be okay with that? I know the logical thing to do is to stay behind, but in those types of moments we wouldn't really think logically if our loved ones were on the line.


----------



## Masato (Jun 1, 2011)

*Naruto has been acting like a douche, lately..*

Somone had to say it. 

The way he treats the Kyuubi. He just used violence instead of trying to reason with it. What Basically happened was that the Kyuubi came with a perfectly good arguement and Naruto couldn't counter it so he resorted to violence then to further humiliate the fox he stepped on it. That is not self confidense but *ARROGANCE*. This is even worst than Vegeta. 

Later after learning that the entire world is trying to protect him, not for his life but for the fate of the world what's the first thing he does? He tries to ruin it all for his selfish desires. 

The worst part of it is that the manga sort of tries to glorify this kind of behavior.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 1, 2011)

Naruto is going in because he wants to.


----------



## SSGG (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Naruto is just too used to Tsunade letting him have his way I guess.


 
^This is exactly what I was planning on saying as I was reading your post. Notice how Naruto tries to get Tsunade to bail him out in this latest chapter.  Not to mention the fact that he grew up without parents telling him what to do...just as Sakura said at the beginning of the series. 

But really, him being a brat who doesn't listen to authority or bow down to anyone, regardless of their reasoning, is a part of his character, I guess. And just like all those times before, he'll probably prove to the Raikage that his bratty stubbornness triumphs over everyone and everything. Though I wouldn't mind seeing it come back to bite Naruto in the butt one of these days...


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## erivar (Jun 1, 2011)

eh...NO. 

First, for practical and narrative reason, Naruto staying on the island like a good little weapon = plot standing still = boring to read because sooner or later, Naruto has to join the damn war for anything big to happen. Fact. So he might as well get there sooner rather than later.

Secondly, Naruto may sound a little arrogant he did defeat Pain and saved all the dead villagers so why the hell not and naive with his position, he always is but the Raikage is no different. Once again, guys like him who can't see the future and only think in a linear rigid perspective can't see beyond his fears and viewpoint and consider that maybe Naruto won't be captured by the enemy and that he may actually have a chance to be of some help rather than be a liability. 

The Raikage considering killing Naruto & Bee is absolutely no different from Danzou who he was angry at. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  He means well as he is thinking of what Madara winning the war would do to the world. But he is crossing many lines to get there. He is jumping the gun and making such a game changing decision without thinking of all the possible consequences besides his goal. 

The Raikage is right and wrong at the same time. His reasoning for why he wants to stop them is correct. But his method of doing so is wrong. 
It's the deal with Sasuke. Sasuke wanting to get revenge for his clan is right. But his method and path that led him there was and is mostly wrong.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 1, 2011)

How do people still not know Naruto's character? He's a rebel, he's always been like this.


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 1, 2011)

haterz gonna hate


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## seastone (Jun 1, 2011)

I was under the impression the Kyuubi wasn't trying to make a point. Rather that it wanted Naruto to doubt himself and fall into despair so he loses control like he did with his battle with Pain. Naruto just made it clear that wasn't going to happen, more so that Naruto doesn't even begrudge anything against the Kyuubi. 

Also Naruto running off to prevent more pain,death and hatred are "selfish desires"? It is not like he wants to a be great hero that people worship him which was his original motive for being a Hokage. He wants to help people rather then sit idly by. 

Personally I disagree with some of things he is doing but I do not think is acting like a douche. Reckless, idiotic and impulsive are more words is the way Naruto is acting.


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## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 1, 2011)

Damn son, Naruto being a boss and getting a lot of hate.


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## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

Naruto is supposed to lay down like a rug and let people walk all over him. If he doesn't he is a douche!


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## MYJC (Jun 1, 2011)

Iovan said:


> Naruto is supposed to lay down like a rug and let people walk all over him. If he doesn't he is a douche!



No, he's supposed to respect the orders of his superiors.


----------



## starmandeluxe (Jun 1, 2011)

If Naruto doesn't do anything, he's a giant pussy. If he stands up for what he believes, he's a douchebag.

Haters gonna hate!!!!!!!!


----------



## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> No, he's supposed to respect the orders of his superiors.



Yes he's supposed to blindly follow all orders as well as let people walk all over him. Thanks for correcting me.


----------



## Neoreobeem (Jun 1, 2011)

Lets face it the Shinobi failed so it's up to Naruto and Bee to fix things. While Naruto acts with thinking that's what his character is about. Bee just likes screwing around. Once the war is done he'll want to just chill. Raikage goes over board when he thinks he is right. this is the Sasme guy who almost got burned to death thanks to Sasuke.


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 1, 2011)

gee, and people bitched at him at kage summit arc but now this? 

@Iovan like naruto would take shit from others wsho tell him what to do


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## Descent of the Lion (Jun 1, 2011)

You make him sound like John Cena.


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## King of the Internet (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh lighten up! 

It's still just a manga


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## MYJC (Jun 1, 2011)

Iovan said:


> Yes he's supposed to blindly follow all orders as well as let people walk all over him. Thanks for correcting me.



Yeah, I suppose it would be better if everybody in the ninja alliance just completely disrespected their leaders' orders and did whatever they wanted regardless of whether it put people at risk. That'll show Madara.


----------



## DanE (Jun 1, 2011)

its just Naruto's phase, lame->arrogant->confident-> angry->depressed->more depressed->happy-> cool-> confident-> hyperventilate->sad->*arrogant*->confident->cool

he is currently there, I hope he finishes cool like Minato


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 1, 2011)

@MYJC  like sakumo hatake?


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## Nic (Jun 1, 2011)

Poor Naruto, how dare you want to save your friends?  How dare you have compassion for others?  How dare you just not sit around while your friends die?  Naruto, you are such a bad bad boy.


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## Masato (Jun 1, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> I was under the impression the Kyuubi wasn't trying to make a point. Rather that it wanted Naruto to doubt himself and fall into despair so he loses control like he did with his battle with Pain. Naruto just made it clear that wasn't going to happen, more so that Naruto doesn't even begrudge anything against the Kyuubi.



I'm not convinced on the whole "fall into despeir" arguement. It's a different matter now that he's in full control of the seal. 

If we go with that arguement however, then he could atleast respond. Naruto has been portrayed as a morally correct character. This must be the first time I've seen him resort to humiliating his opponent rather than coming up with an arguement. 



MaskedMenace said:


> Also Naruto running off to prevent more pain,death and hatred are "selfish desires"? It is not like he wants to a be great hero that people worship him which was his original motive for being a Hokage. He wants to help people rather then sit idly by.



Wether it's his desire to protect friends, his desire to fight or his desire to test out his new powers doesn't matter. Half the army are already dead. If Naruto get's captured then all those deaths would be for in vain. Sitting idly by and enduring the pain of not helping is in my opinion the least selfish act on Naruto's part. He chose to run for the front lines. [/QUOTE]



MaskedMenace said:


> Personally I disagree with some of things he is doing but I do not think is acting like a douche. Reckless, idiotic and impulsive are more words is the way Naruto is acting.



You got me on this. I should have worded it differently. But impulsive, recless and idiotic doesn't cut it. After the sacrifice of half the army he's simply being a dick.



King of the Internet said:


> Oh lighten up!
> 
> It's still just a manga



I'm not mad or anything, just bored


----------



## Aiku (Jun 1, 2011)

What are you talking about? He's being a beast.


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## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Yeah, I suppose it would be better if everybody in the ninja alliance just completely disrespected their leaders' orders and did whatever they wanted regardless of whether it put people at risk. That'll show Madara.



Why are you changing your mind bro? Didn't you just agree with me that blindly following orders and letting people walk all over you is the right thing to do? Stop trying to confuzzle me.


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## jameshawking (Jun 1, 2011)

trollolololol

frankly


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 1, 2011)

Masato said:


> The way he treats the Kyuubi. He just used violence instead of trying to reason with it. What Basically happened was that the Kyuubi came with a perfectly good arguement and Naruto couldn't counter it so he resorted to violence then to further humiliate the fox he stepped on it. That is not self confidense but *ARROGANCE*. This is even worst than Vegeta.



Remember Naruto's answer to Deva Pain? It was a Rasengan in his torso.

Naruto is really the descendant of the Elder Brother.


----------



## The Scientist (Jun 1, 2011)

Masato said:


> Somone had to say it.
> 
> The way he treats the Kyuubi. He just used violence instead of trying to reason with it. What Basically happened was that the Kyuubi came with a perfectly good arguement and Naruto couldn't counter it so he resorted to violence then to further humiliate the fox he stepped on it. That is not self confidense but *ARROGANCE*. This is even worst than Vegeta.



 kyuubi does not respect reason, only strength. kyuubi will use trickery to put its host in a dangerous situation and take power. kyuubi has always tried to consume Naruto's soul and break free of the seal. whatever argument kyuubi comes up with only goes to serve his own end which is to break free of the seal. Naruto was wise to realize that and act accordingly. if he is truly going to control the 9 tail fox, he has to show strength. that may be arrogant but in the end, that is what is going to work. 



Masato said:


> Later after learning that the entire world is trying to protect him, not for his life but for the fate of the world what's the first thing he does? He tries to ruin it all for his selfish desires.



one could make the counter argument that they are not trying to protect him out of the goodness of their hearts. they are only trying to save themselves by hiding the only ingredient left for madara to complete his technique and enslave everyone else. infact this argument is more believable with the reading of the chapter and seeing how raikage is willing to kill the ones he is supposedly fighting to protect, proving that it isnt them he is protecting, it is himself. 

Naruto on the other hand is stepping out without regard for himself because he has seen the vision of his friends fighting and dying he cannot stand by and have them die to "protect" him. if that is a "selfish desire" then what is selfless in your own book? people actually win medals in the real world when they do that



Masato said:


> The worst part of it is that the manga sort of tries to glorify this kind of behavior.



self sacrifice should always be glorified. if others are willing to sacrifice for you and you have the power to end their pain, you should be willing to sacrifice for them. that is what naruto is simply trying to do and that is the point.


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## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> No, he's supposed to respect the orders of his superiors.



Shinobi who disobey orders are trash.

Shinobi who abandon their comrades are worse than trash.

Seems like a lot of you forgot this.


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## general-david (Jun 1, 2011)

I disagree. he's not being a douche...he's being his own man....whats so wrong with that...especially if he ends up winning


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## Nic (Jun 1, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> Shinobi who disobey orders are trash.
> 
> Shinobi who abandon their comrades are worse than trash.
> 
> Seems like a lot of you forgot this.


 
But Kakashi is a no good moron, have you forgotten?


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 1, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> Shinobi who disobey orders are trash.
> 
> Shinobi who abandon their comrades are worse than trash.
> 
> Seems like a lot of you forgot this.



By running away from the protection, he _is_ abandoning his comrades and oh so many more.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 1, 2011)

Masato said:


> Somone had to say it.
> 
> The way he treats the Kyuubi. He just used violence instead of trying to reason with it. What Basically happened was that the Kyuubi came with a perfectly good arguement and Naruto couldn't counter it so he resorted to violence then to further humiliate the fox he stepped on it. That is not self confidense but *ARROGANCE*. This is even worst than Vegeta.
> 
> ...



i don't think so. imagine yourself as being very powerful, someone who could possibly turn the tides of a battle. 40,000 people have already died and that's without fighting the strongest characters. just clones and a few strong members. would you want to stand by and try to talk it out when there is no time and 40,000 people have already died for you. wouldn't you want to, being a "tide changer" intervene to help save lives.


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## jameshawking (Jun 1, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> By running away from the protection, he _is_ abandoning his comrades and oh so many more.



Naruto single-handedly, is supposed to be better than all of Konoha put together by the Pein Arc.  Even if this is untrue, it's what Konoha, and the world, thinks/ should think from that fight.

How the hell is a person better than the entirety of the most powerful nation abandoning his allies by fighting << ?


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## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> By running away from the protection, he _is_ abandoning his comrades and oh so many more.



How so? If he is acting to help them... They are doing what they think is best for him and he is doing what he thinks is best for them. There is no abandoning is comrades by not staying put. He would be abandoning them to their sacrifice if he did stay put.


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## PureWIN (Jun 1, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Remember Naruto's answer to Deva Pain? It was a Rasengan in his torso.
> 
> Naruto is really the descendant of the Elder Brother.



That was BEAST, bro. All arguments should be ended with a Rasegan to the torso.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 1, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Naruto single-handedly, is supposed to be better than all of Konoha put together by the Pein Arc.  Even if this is untrue, it's what Konoha, and the world, thinks/ should think from that fight.
> 
> How the hell is a person better than the entirety of the most powerful nation abandoning his allies by fighting << ?





Iovan said:


> How so? If he is acting to help them... They are doing what they think is best for him and he is doing what he thinks is best for them. There is no abandoning is comrades by not staying put. He would be abandoning them to their sacrifice if he did stay put.



Ironically, joining the front line would invite a lot more pressure.
Pressure which would indeed kill those who could not take it. Naruto won't be able to save them and fight off the endless waves of Edos, Zetsu clones and a goddamn Gedou Mazou at the same time.
His comrades are much, much more likely to die in that scenario.


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## Namikaze-Minato (Jun 1, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Ironically, joining the front line would invite a lot more pressure.
> Pressure which would indeed kill those who could not take it. Naruto won't be able to save them and fight off the endless waves of Edos, Zetsu clones and a goddamn Gedou Mazou at the same time.
> His comrades are much, much more likely to die in that scenario.



as opposed to half of them dying w/o naruto and bee around?


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## ensoriki (Jun 1, 2011)

Nic said:


> Poor Naruto, how dare you want to save your friends?  How dare you have compassion for others?  How dare you just not sit around while your friends die?  Naruto, you are such a bad bad boy.



If this were reality and the world would get fucked up if two people were captured and then you heard on the news "The two most important people for our survival are going out for a jog with the intention of fighting those after them" are you going to approve.

Obviously since this is Shounen we know it all works out for Naruto but on an intellectual scale, Naruto just said he rather everyone die because of his actions than a few people die because of his inaction.


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## jameshawking (Jun 1, 2011)

Ensoriki, he said if everyone he's ever et, his entire caste of society, dies out protecting hi, he'll have nothing left in the world anyway <<

it's an entirely legitimate reason to do something, even if you don't like it.


SS: Madara is trying to blast through the army because he can't/u] handle both the army and the Jinchuuriki.  As such, it wouldn't be a bad thing for them to fight as well; they'd be the tipping point that started causing the collapse of Madara


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## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Ironically, joining the front line would invite a lot more pressure.
> Pressure which would indeed kill those who could not take it. Naruto won't be able to save them and fight off the endless waves of Edos, Zetsu clones and a goddamn Gedou Mazou at the same time.
> His comrades are much, much more likely to die in that scenario.



Says you. It's still the same enemies only now with a strong Naruto in the mix.


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## Masato (Jun 1, 2011)

The Scientist said:


> kyuubi does not respect reason, only strength. kyuubi will use trickery to put its host in a dangerous situation and take power. kyuubi has always tried to consume Naruto's soul and break free of the seal. whatever argument kyuubi comes up with only goes to serve his own end which is to break free of the seal. Naruto was wise to realize that and act accordingly. if he is truly going to control the 9 tail fox, he has to show strength. that may be arrogant but in the end, that is what is going to work.



That may be true, however the Kyuubi  had perfectly valid points. Naruto's respond was rather disgusting, he tells Kyuubi to come closer, attacks him then steps on him.   

Showing strength is not the same as acting like a dick. After learning of all that's happened he should have showed strength by staying put, not rushing into battle. 



The Scientist said:


> one could make the counter argument that they are not trying to protect him out of the goodness of their hearts. they are only trying to save themselves by hiding the only ingredient left for madara to complete his technique and enslave everyone else. infact this argument is more believable with the reading of the chapter and seeing how raikage is willing to kill the ones he is supposedly fighting to protect, proving that it isnt them he is protecting, it is himself.



That's deffinetly true. Naruto isn't being protected for personal reasons. And he has accepted that, but the answer to that shouldn't be to rush into battle. Heck, that should be the reason to stay put. This is something far bigger than him, they are not fighting for his sake, but for the sake of defeating Madara. 



The Scientist said:


> Naruto on the other hand is stepping out without regard for himself because he has seen the vision of his friends fighting and dying he cannot stand by and have them die to "protect" him. if that is a "selfish desire" then what is selfless in your own book? people actually win medals in the real world when they do that



Itachi's decision is selfless in my opinion. Simply because he had to do something incredibly hard, something which took the life of all he loved, the love of his brother and his future. That's selfless. 

On the other hand you have Naruto. Somone who everyone is trying to protect, not for personal reasons but for defeating a great villain. Half the army is already dead. If he is captured then all of that is in vain.

In many situations the most selfless act is to fight. That can change with circumstances. Even fighting to protect his comrades is selfish in this situation. Because if he's captured then not only are all the deaths in vain but also innocent people would get dragget into it by being enslaved. 

So yes, Imo that's an extremely selfish move.  



The Scientist said:


> self sacrifice should always be glorified. if others are willing to sacrifice for you and you have the power to end their pain, you should be willing to sacrifice for them. that is what naruto is simply trying to do and that is the point.



You could argue that he simply want to test his power or is just arrogant. Actually that sound right considering how he disregards any possibility of loosing. 

Even if he did this out of pure self sacrifice it's still selfish. People are dying to protect the world, and he tries to ruin it all by jumping into battle.


----------



## Drums (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh I am sorry, Naruto is such a bad person for not accepting to actually get into a conversation with the demon known as Kyubi who was exactly seeking for that chance, aka to be able to emotionaly manipulate Naruto through that very talk you wanted them to have. It had nothing to do with arrogance, and thinking it does, is dumb beyond words. Its not the first time the Kyubi had tried to influence Naruto and Naruto knows his facts anymore. He wasnt gonna fall for it, as he said himself, again. Discussing with the kyubi wouldnt really help anything, if only cause harm. If you are as naive as actually believing that Naruto should have given the demon a chance at talk for the sole moral heck of it, then what can I say. This is funny. Plus, just cause Naruto is a good person doesnt mean he has to be dumb as well. He is good, cause hes yet to give up on that friend of his who wants nothing to do with him and has tried to him several times, hes good cause hes the one who saved Konohas ass in Pain times single handidly, hes good cause hes rushing in that war so that he will protect as many lives as he can and cause he feels responsible for it(talk about selfish here /sarcasm), yet you say all this means nothing for the qualities hes made off just cause he isnt as dumb as to engage in a pointless talk with the Kyubi? Lol, you might as well want to call PETA and complain to them.
Srsly...


Oh and for christ's sake, dont even expect me to reply to your counter posts. Not even gonna waste time reading them to be frank.This was a venting post, Im not even trying to prove any point to you, I could tell you're a lost case just by reading the first few lines.

Oh and this is not a personal attack. Right now Im just attacking all the general stupidity of some of the fandom around these matters impersonated on your very pixel face.

PS: what was this about Naruto being violent and getting physical with the Kyubi? Lol, are you serious? First, it all happened in his mind, no real actual touch involved(unless I am mistaken about it), secondly since when is putting his foot on the demon's who has wrecked mountains face violent? I am sure Kyubi woke up with bruises the next day. You're reading a manga about ninjas. If you're not into getting physical, then I suggest you drop it.


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## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> If this were reality and the world would get fucked up if two people were captured and then you heard on the news "The two most important people for our survival are going out for a jog with the intention of fighting those after them" are you going to approve.



Considering how powerful they are? I would be pretty damn happy. I can imagine people grumbling about having to die for two people they have never met.



> Obviously since this is Shounen we know it all works out for Naruto but on an intellectual scale, Naruto just said he rather everyone die because of his actions than a few people die because of his inaction.



He did not say this. He intends to save everyone. That may be naive but it's sure not him planning for people to die.


----------



## Pervy Fox (Jun 1, 2011)

Are people still critisizing Naruto's attitude? 

Where have they been for the last 541 chapters?


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 1, 2011)

Minato Namikaze05 said:


> as opposed to half of them dying w/o naruto and bee around?



The death toll would be much higher then, yeah. When they're scrambling to protect Naruto on the battlefield, they become much more easily predictable and in that situation the superiority in numbers becomes a lot more useful etc.


----------



## Skaddix (Jun 1, 2011)

Iovan said:


> Considering how powerful they are? I would be pretty damn happy. I can imagine people grumbling about having to die for two people they have never met.
> 
> 
> 
> He did not say this. He intends to save everyone. That may be naive but it's sure not him planning for people to die.



True because naruto has a goal but absolutely no plan to accomplish said goals. For godaskes, they are not even fighting real battles right now anyway just chasing zetsu clones.


----------



## Iovan (Jun 1, 2011)

I guess Naruto was stupid to confront Pein as well.


----------



## King of the Internet (Jun 1, 2011)

Nic said:


> Poor Naruto, how dare you want to save your friends?  How dare you have compassion for others?  How dare you just not sit around while your friends die?  Naruto, you are such a bad bad boy.



Naruto needs a good spanking.


----------



## Kyu (Jun 1, 2011)

Masato said:


> Somone had to say it.
> 
> The way he treats the Kyuubi. He just used violence instead of trying to reason with it. What Basically happened was that the Kyuubi came with a perfectly good arguement and Naruto couldn't counter it so he resorted to violence then to further humiliate the fox he stepped on it. That is not self confidense but *ARROGANCE*. *This is even worst than Vegeta.*
> 
> ...



Not even close bro...

If you really want an arrogant douche Sasuke says Hi

Seriously, its a Shonen bro what do you expect...


----------



## Masato (Jun 1, 2011)

KyuubiV3 said:


> Not even close bro...
> 
> If you really want an arrogant douche Sasuke says Hi
> 
> Seriously, its a Shonen bro what do you expect...



That's true, it is shounen, but to be honest I don't see that as a valid execuse. Why can't the main character think before acting. Meh, pherhaps I expected to much of this manga.


----------



## Summers (Jun 1, 2011)

Naruto has been told by almost everyone important in his life that he is supposed to bring peace and that he is the chosen one and all that Jazz. Even Itachi put his faith in him. 

The reason Naruto has the kyuubi sealed inside is because of the prophecy. 
The reason he was with Jiraiya is because of the prophecy. 
The reason he fought Nagato is because of the prophecy.
The reason he has suffered is because of the prophecy.

His whole life is molded from this prophecy saying that he is supposed to bring peace and end war. 
Now that he Knows that a war is going on, and that the events he has been warned about are coming he is supposed to sit in the isolation chamber? Fuck that.


----------



## Kage (Jun 1, 2011)

he's just being hotheaded and reckless. it's how he's always been. i wouldn't call him a douche for that at all.


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## Nic (Jun 1, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> If this were reality and the world would get fucked up if two people were captured and then you heard on the news "The two most important people for our survival are going out for a jog with the intention of fighting those after them" are you going to approve.
> 
> Obviously since this is Shounen we know it all works out for Naruto but on an intellectual scale, Naruto just said he rather everyone die because of his actions than a few people die because of his inaction.


 
"the two most powerful assets sit back while all their friends die for the cause. Oh shit the last line of defense are those two most powerful assets anyways" Naruto you're such a jerk. How evil of you to not sit back and let your friends die. How could you? Don't you know the value of being a shinobi, it's all about hiding and ducking"  

I can't take these type of threads seriously anymore.  It's just bitching about a character for the sake of it. lol


----------



## ovanz (Jun 1, 2011)

0Fear said:


> You make him sound like John Cena.


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## Aeiou (Jun 1, 2011)

Masato said:


> Wether it's his desire to protect friends, his desire to fight or his desire to test out his new powers doesn't matter. Half the army are already dead. If Naruto get's captured then all those deaths would be for in vain. Sitting idly by and enduring the pain of not helping is in my opinion the least selfish act on Naruto's part. He chose to run for the front lines.



No. If Naruto *does not* join the war, all those deaths would be in vain. You have to realize that he's one of the strongest in the alliance now, and his presence would greatly benefit the war, along with Bee's.

You should also realize that Naruto has no selfishness whatsoever in his character... Naruto follows only his super-ego and cares about other people over his own well-being. This has been portrayed throughout the whole series of Naruto. For you to call him a selfish dick is completely invalid. That's how Naruto and Sasuke's personalities are complete opposites 

Sasuke --- ID (Cares about himself)
Naruto --- Super Ego (Cares about others over himself)


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## cloudsymph (Jun 1, 2011)

lately, he's been a douche since the start of part 2.


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## MYJC (Jun 1, 2011)

Nic said:


> "the two most powerful assets sit back while all their friends die for the cause. Oh shit the last line of defense are those two most powerful assets anyways" Naruto you're such a jerk. How evil of you to not sit back and let your friends die. How could you? Don't you know the value of being a shinobi, it's all about hiding and ducking"
> 
> I can't take these type of threads seriously anymore.  It's just bitching about a character for the sake of it. lol



You're UTTERLY missing the point. 

Naruto wants to COMPLETELY ruin the ninja alliances plans and risk losing the entire war simply because he doesn't want to feel guilty about sitting this one out. Just because his motivation is to save people doesn't mean that his actions aren't reckless and stupid. And yes, it's SELFISH on some level because he's putting his desire not to feel guilty over the well-being of the entire ninja world.

Staying where Madara can't get to him isn't "hiding and ducking", it's being smart and not giving Madara a chance to easily win the war. Rushing to the battle, ruining everybody's plans, and causing confusion will NOT help his friends, it'll only make things worse. 

That's what people don't seem to get, he may want to help but his actions will do the exact opposite. The best thing he can do to help his friends is follow the plan that the ninja world agreed on.


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## jplaya2023 (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> No, he's supposed to respect the orders of his superiors.



IS He also suppose to stand there and let one of the superiors kill him as well?


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 1, 2011)

That's another reason why I don't like Naruto being made to be some messiah. Naruto is suppose to be an asshole. Hell that's one of the reason why part 1 Naruto was likable. He was a brat who didn't give a shit. He should not be some peace loving hippie.

I take him acting like some cocky punk over him being a whiny little bitch who cries about his boyfriend.


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## Skaddix (Jun 1, 2011)

Lol so he is like Anakin well actually I guess more Cade Skywalker from the Legacy Comics.


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## Nic (Jun 1, 2011)

MYJC said:


> You're UTTERLY missing the point.
> 
> Naruto wants to COMPLETELY ruin the ninja alliances plans and risk losing the entire war simply because he doesn't want to feel guilty about sitting this one out. Just because his motivation is to save people doesn't mean that his actions aren't reckless and stupid. And yes, it's SELFISH on some level because he's putting his desire not to feel guilty over the well-being of the entire ninja world.
> 
> ...


 
You're UTTERLY missing the point. 

Naruto doesn't want to sit this out, because he doesn't want his friends to die when he feels he could have prevented their death.  What a jerk, riight?  btw a douche, would feel no guilt over his freinds deaths. 

Bold part.  Ok doing what you feel is right doesn't make you a douche even if you're wrong.  Do you not understand that? lol  There's a difference between being wrong and being a douche.   If you're intentions are good how can you call someone a douche?  Call him a moron (depending on one's viewpoint), ok, call him a douche, that makes no sense?


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## MYJC (Jun 1, 2011)

jplaya2023 said:


> IS He also suppose to stand there and let one of the superiors kill him as well?



Naruto is the one that's provoking the Raikage, the only reason Raikage said he'd kill him was because Naruto threatened to force his way through and there's no other way to stop him.  

I don't understand how Raikage is supposed to be the bad guy because he doesn't want to let Naruto completely ruin all of the Ninja Alliance's strategies by rushing headfirst into the war without any sort of plan and hoping for the best. 

Naruto basically just wants to rush in and put a giant bullseye on himself just because he thinks he can "end the war" even though he has no idea how. He's wants to risk the fate of the ninja world on a whim and a "feeling".


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## Gunners (Jun 1, 2011)

> The way he treats the Kyuubi. He just used violence instead of trying to reason with it. What Basically happened was that the Kyuubi came with a perfectly good arguement and Naruto couldn't counter it so he resorted to violence then to further humiliate the fox he stepped on it. That is not self confidense but ARROGANCE. This is even worst than Vegeta.


The Kyuubi tried manipulating him so it was necessary for him to assert his position as master. This couldn't be done with tea and biscuits because the Kyuubi is a being of malice and malevolence.



> Later after learning that the entire world is trying to protect him, not for his life but for the fate of the world what's the first thing he does? He tries to ruin it all for his selfish desires.


Not for his selfish desires, he's smart enough to realise that they are losing what is important to them in order to _protect what is important to them._ If they win the war they'll have lost many lives and Madara and the Kyuubi will strike again. 

It should also be noted that Onoki ( A character who has experience more wars than A) thought to use A and Naruto in battle. It was Gaara ( A character who has not experienced war) who stated the Jinchuriki's should be hidden.


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 1, 2011)

Naruto will end up being right because he's the MC. If this was real life he would had been imprison or shot for his disobedience to follow orders. Naruto is being an arrogant little brat but that's who he is. It would be nice to see his choice having consequences though.


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## Cornbreesha (Jun 1, 2011)

I am glad to see that someone doesn't think the Raikage is the devil and Naruto is the messiah 

oh Raikage please put Narudo in his place


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 1, 2011)

It's like I've said, several times: Naruto will get his ass kicked very soon, then realize just how wrong he was in going against everyone's wishes. It's going to happen, because this presumptuous attitude of his needs to be quelled. He can't solo a war by himself, and everybody around him knows it too.


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## Ayana (Jun 1, 2011)

Thank you Raikage for brining a bit sense into the manga, now please, continue beating the crap out of Jesusruto. And you bashed Minato too, I love you.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 1, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> Naruto is going in because he wants to.


^Agree with this guy. Raikage's a hot-headed, fascist kage anyways. I'd flip him the bird.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto is right in this. the reasoning?

BECAUSE

I'm sure we can all agree without a doubt that the leader of the alliance would be Minato if he was still alive. HOWEVER he sacrificed himself to make a BETTER weapon for the alliance to use, his son with the kyuubi, so that he can protect his friends and bring peace to the shinobi world. So Minato's sacrifice, the REAL wouldbe leader of the alliance, was for Naruto to enter the war and own.


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## p33man (Jun 2, 2011)

0Fear said:


> Welcome to the Naruto manga, and thank you for listening to the orientation.
> 
> 
> Dude. . . Naruto has been this way since day uno.  In fact, that's why they DIDN'T want him to know.
> ...



Why you hatin' on bathroom attendants?


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## daschysta (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto is acting like a spoiled, petulant brat.

If he gets caught then the sacrifices that everyone has made during the war are suddenly meaningless... But no because naruto would be sad if he was left out it's perfectly ok for him to compromise the entire war and risk utter defeat. Raikage was a bit overboard, but everyone knows he's a rager. This just goes to show that naruto hasn't grown up much at all, and would make an infeasible loose cannon of a hokage, which at the end of the day is still a bureaucrat whose main job is to lead politically, not fight except at direst need.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 2, 2011)

daschysta said:


> Naruto is acting like a spoiled, petulant brat.
> 
> If he gets caught then the sacrifices that everyone has made during the war are suddenly meaningless... But no because naruto would be sad if he was left out it's perfectly ok for him to compromise the entire war and risk utter defeat. Raikage was a bit overboard, but everyone knows he's a rager. This just goes to show that naruto hasn't grown up much at all, and would make an infeasible loose cannon of a hokage, which at the end of the day is still a bureaucrat whose main job is to lead politically, not fight except at direst need.



read what i wrote. naruto was made as a weapon for this sole reason.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jun 2, 2011)

The Raikage is a moron.

All his talk about how strength and determination are everything in the ninja world,and now he expects Naruto to go back in his cage.When Naruto was a pansy it wasn't good,now that he grew a pair it still isn't good.

Honest question:How would the Raikage react if the decision was made that the Five Kage are way too important and should stay hidden and let their top shinobi handle the war?The exact same fucking way.Hypocrisy at its finest.


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## ovanz (Jun 2, 2011)

I think they are both wrong, but bleh Madara must be chuckling at how the aliance is fighting between them, the general of the army and the two objectives no less.


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## Agent of Death/Ergo Proxy (Jun 2, 2011)

Then get ready to be dissapointed. Naruto's getting by him either way and the Raikage can't do shit about it. And I bet A is the one getting put in his place


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## daschysta (Jun 2, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> read what i wrote. naruto was made as a weapon for this sole reason.



By Minato, who is dead.

The shinobi alliance already considered using B and Naruto on the frontline and came to an executive decision to keep them from battle. 

The shared will of the five Kages supercedes the hope of a dead one. Minato's opinion at this point is irrelevant to the strategy of the joint alliance, and you can't risk the survival of the entire world on the faith of a dying father in his baby son.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jun 2, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> How do people still not know Naruto's character? He's a rebel, he's always been like this.



We want him to be a rebel that THINKS when he does so. Kishi keeps presenting it as if Naruto has realized some great wisdom for him to be able to convert Nagato and have this ideal but his actions keep portraying him as just blindly following something he doesn't actually understand.


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## rac585 (Jun 2, 2011)

Agreed, Naruto is an idiot but we all know better than to think this war can end well without the help of the main character. Kishi could and probably should have gone a different route in bringing Naruto to the battlefield.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 2, 2011)

Seriously, what would it look like if the "Destined Child" set on the sidelines doing nothing?



daschysta said:


> By Minato, who is dead.
> 
> The shinobi alliance already considered using B and Naruto on the frontline and came to an executive decision to keep them from battle.
> 
> The shared will of the five Kages supercedes the hope of a dead one. Minato's opinion at this point is irrelevant to the strategy of the joint alliance, and you can't risk the survival of the entire world on the faith of a dying father in his baby son.



Wrong. Destiny(and by destiny, I mean Kishi) made Naruto the weapon to defeat Madara. Raikage may not believe in the prophecy, but that doesn't mean it's not true. You may consider it bullshit, but from the readers perspective(& Naruto's), Naruto is preordained to save the world and bring peace. The Great Toad Sage predicted it(and he's said to never be wrong) and  Jiraiya, Minato, and Nagato all believe in him.


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## daschysta (Jun 2, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> Seriously, what would it look like if the "Destined Child" set on the sidelines doing nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. Destiny(and by destiny, I mean Kishi) made Naruto the weapon to defeat Madara. Raikage may not believe in the prophecy, but that doesn't mean it's not true.



That may be true, but it doesn't mean that naruto isn't acting like an entitled brat, or that raikage, as the leader of an army responsible for fighting the war should base rational decisions on "destiny". Destiny has nothing to do with judging characters reactions to situations. That's not naruto not acting like a spoiled child, that's just bad writing, especially if you turn around and make this kid the leader of a nation afterwards. i know it's irritating and irresponsible when real leaders makes impactful decisions based on "destiny" (religion) an dnaruto's isn't even institutionalized.

It's bad writing to make unrealistic and stupid things happen because of some predetermined plot that is above the circumstances developed holistically throughout the story. if kishi wanted to go with that angle then he shouldn't have had naruto forced to sit out of the war in the first place, this just makes naruto's character look like an immature child who happens to be destined to win when he fights, not the cultural leader that is going to usher in some "new age" that kishi is trying to make him out to be.


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## hcheng02 (Jun 2, 2011)

Raikage also said that he would kill Naruto right then and there to buy the Alliance some time without consulting any of the other Kages in the matter. The guy also lost half his entire army in one goddamn day. He chose to lose his arm punching a burning Susanoo rather than use a shadow clone, distance attack, or keeping his cool and holding back. In short, Raikage isn't shown to be a very rational leader and one can disagree with his decisions.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 2, 2011)

Iovan said:


> _SM Naruto > Pain_
> 
> You mean where he sticks to this instead of contradicting it?



Said by one of the biggest idiots in the manga. 

Pointing this out does absolutely nothing to counter OP's statements.



Lelouch71 said:


> Naruto will end up being right because he's the MC. If this was real life he would had been imprison or shot for his disobedience to follow orders. Naruto is being an arrogant little brat but that's who he is. It would be nice to see his choice having consequences though.



This. Exactly.

We as readers know his decisions will be the 'right ones' in the end. If we had no way of knowing this, I guarantee that his supporters would rapidly dwindle.


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## Frostman (Jun 2, 2011)

Tia Halibel said:


> Since people seem to have missed it above, I'll post it myself:
> 
> _SM Naruto > Pain_
> 
> Nuff said. Yes it may seem like Naruto is being selfish, but what do you expect him to do? What would you do in this situation? Would you be fine by sitting off to the side because your friends and family are literally dieing just so you can live? Would you be okay with that? I know the logical thing to do is to stay behind, but in those types of moments we wouldn't really think logically if our loved ones were on the line.



What exactly did Obito accomplish by doing that? He got himself killed. Kakashi and Rin would have been dead too if it wasn't for Minato being there to save the day. Minato was also there to complete the mission. Had they not been with Minato, all three would have been dead and the mission would have been a failure. The only gain they got out of that was a personal victory for Obito. Just imagine what would have happen if that bridge wasn't destroyed.  Kakashi sure is lucky Minato is so amazing.

Its a good thing no body died during the Pain invasion. Just think of all the guilt Naruto would suffer from, from having the blood off all those that gave their lives to get him information that made his fight with Pain THAT much easier. Naruto needs to have a little faith in his comrades.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jun 2, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> Said by one of the biggest idiots in the manga.
> 
> Pointing this out does absolutely nothing to counter OP's statements.



Oooo, that's a cold one Pika, that's real cold.


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## Iovan (Jun 2, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> Said by one of the biggest idiots in the manga.
> 
> Pointing this out does absolutely nothing to counter OP's statements.



Regardless of what you think of it that's the reasoning and it isn't just about Naruto acting like a spoiled brat. It's "practical" and "expected" to carry out orders or you are "trash". This has already been covered (hence that page I linked) and that is the philosophy that Naruto aspires to. If you or anyone else had issue with it before then you aren't saying anything new. If you didn't then you are only using it as an excuse now to shit on Naruto. 

When Raikage went from wanting to protect Naruto and Bee to talking about killing them to prevent Madara from (*probably, maybe, potentially, "oh me oh my bad things could happen, make sure to wear your jacket its cold outside..."* ) getting them, he crossed a line. The excuses some of you make for him are funny though.


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## Mistshadow (Jun 2, 2011)

daschysta said:


> By Minato, who is dead.
> 
> The shinobi alliance already considered using B and Naruto on the frontline and came to an executive decision to keep them from battle.
> 
> The shared will of the five Kages supercedes the hope of a dead one. Minato's opinion at this point is irrelevant to the strategy of the joint alliance, and you can't risk the survival of the entire world on the faith of a dying father in his baby son.



A dead shinobi who passed on a still asofyet unknown jutsu to naruto that SHOULD be completed now that naruto has control of the kyuubi chakra.
Jiraiya said Minato always thought stuff through, and had a plan with naruto. This is his plan on its way to fruition. Naruto has pretty much been told the plan. Raikage has been told only a glimpse of it, destined child, thats it.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 2, 2011)

daschysta said:


> That may be true, but it doesn't mean that naruto isn't acting like an entitled brat, or that raikage, as the leader of an army responsible for fighting the war should base rational decisions on "destiny". Destiny has nothing to do with judging characters reactions to situations. That's not naruto not acting like a spoiled child, that's just bad writing, especially if you turn around and make this kid the leader of a nation afterwards. i know it's irritating and irresponsible when real leaders makes impactful decisions based on "destiny" (religion) an dnaruto's isn't even institutionalized.
> 
> It's bad writing to make unrealistic and stupid things happen because of some predetermined plot that is above the circumstances developed holistically throughout the story. if kishi wanted to go with that angle then he shouldn't have had naruto forced to sit out of the war in the first place, this just makes naruto's character look like an immature child who happens to be destined to win when he fights, not the cultural leader that is going to usher in some "new age" that kishi is trying to make him out to be.



But Naruto isn't really acting like a spoiled brat. Just because he disagrees with Raikage doesn't mean he's in the wrong. It would be a completely different story if all was going well on the battlefield, but that's not the case. They need Naruto now more than ever and if they all die what good would come from their sacrifice? Who would protect Naruto and Bee then?

I also disagree with your assessment of Kishimoto's writing, from the very beginning Naruto was always suppose to be a "heroic myth". It was never meant to be looked at rationally, mythic hero tales never are. They are more often used as moral lessons to teach the reader. Also, it makes perfect sense why Kishimoto would keep Naruto out of the fighting, he's the hero, he always appears at the time of greatest need. Raikage being the one to confront him also makes sense because their two characters are so similar. Both are hot-headed and stubborn, but that's what makes them strong, it's also why they seem to butt heads every time they meet. When Raikage first met Naruto he's was absolutely right about the way Naruto was acting then, however this time it's Raikage who is acting foolishly. Raikage is taking the same stance as the elders and Danzou during the Pain Invasion Arc, he views the Jinchuuriki as nothing more than weapons that needs to be protected. However, in truth that not want he really believes. He simply wants to protect his younger brother. Kishimoto knows exactly what he's doing, he even had Naruto confront Iruka prior to this situation to give perspective. Naruto is to Iruka, what Killer Bee is to Raikage, a brother. You can't always shelter your loved ones from harm, Raikage has been using Killer Bee's status as a Jinchuuriki to keep out of harms way from the very beginning.


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## Summers (Jun 2, 2011)

Can anyone imagine The alliance winning the war?
does anyone think they will seriously beat all the Zetsu clones and the Edo Tensei march to the Madara's base and defeat EMS sasuke, Rinnengan improved Madara, Gedo Mazo, and Kabuto?  

I dont think so, I think they will crushed. Naruto could wait until the situation is so desperate that they will beg for him to help but then what would people say about him. Some peace bringing hero he is, waiting till nearly everybody dies.
Madara also already has kin and gin who have the kyuubi chakra, so bee is all that Madara needs.
Naruto is going into the war before it becomes a complete mess, and he know it will piss people off but its the right thing to do.


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## Goobalith (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto is a rebel... and he needs to be one if he's going to change the shinobi world. Old ways of thinking need to die before new ones can arise and a revolutionary concept is never going to occur by following the status quo. Thats what this boils down to essentially.


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## Frostman (Jun 2, 2011)

summers said:


> Can anyone imagine The alliance winning the war?
> does anyone think they will seriously beat all the Zetsu clones and the Edo Tensei march to the Madara's base and defeat EMS sasuke, Rinnengan improved Madara, Gedo Mazo, and Kabuto?
> 
> I dont think so, I think they will crushed. Naruto could wait until the situation is so desperate that they will beg for him to help but then what would people say about him. Some peace bringing hero he is, waiting till nearly everybody dies.
> ...



All they need to do is capture Kabuto. Not only will it dispel all the edos, he has that sixith coffin and a poison that can paralyze the zetsu. So its possible to win a war without brute force.

And what makes you think Naruto can take them on. Madara is fully capable of taking care of a jinchiruki or two. He declared this war prepared for it.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 2, 2011)

Specter Von Baren said:


> Oooo, that's a cold one Pika, that's real cold.



I didn't know you were an Obito fan. 



Iovan said:


> Regardless of what you think of it that's the reasoning and it isn't just about Naruto acting like a spoiled brat. It's "practical" and "expected" to carry out orders or you are "trash". This has already been covered (hence that page I linked) and that is the philosophy that Naruto aspires to. If you or anyone else had issue with it before then you aren't saying anything new. If you didn't then you are only using it as an excuse now to shit on Naruto.



The point I was making was that you brought up a manga page that was more or less irrelevant to the thread. Sure, it may be the 'nindo' that Naruto is following, but it would have been preferrable if you'd actually had a page with NARUTO saying it, not some character who Naruto never even met. A character who was also actually punished for thinking the way he did. 



> When Raikage went from wanting to protect Naruto and Bee to talking about killing them to prevent Madara from (*probably, maybe, potentially, "oh me oh my bad things could happen, make sure to wear your jacket its cold outside..."* ) getting them, he crossed a line. The excuses some of you make for him are funny though.



 And what would YOU have done if this were a real-world situation and Naruto was not the fictional 'hero' that we all knew would win anyway? Would you have taken that risk? Would you have let an ignorant, arrogant 16-year-old run off to the battlefield when you knew that on the chance he was captured, the world would end? 

And this is something everyone seems to be overlooking:

*The Raikage already saw Madara destroy one "Destined Child"*. Why should he expect Naruto, who he seems to be even less impressed with, to fare any better?


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## Iovan (Jun 2, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> The point I was making was that you brought up a manga page that was more or less irrelevant to the thread.



No it wasn't. It directly describes Naruto's attitude. He wasn't acting like a spoiled arrogant brat.



> Sure, it may be the 'nindo' that Naruto is following, but it would have been preferrable if you'd actually had a page with NARUTO saying it, not some character who Naruto never even met. A character who was also actually punished for thinking the way he did.



He wasn't punished for that. He saved Kakashi's life when he didn't have to. The rock was falling for Kakashi's blind spot from when Kakashi saved his life. If anything it shows that lives are valuable and saving them can come with a price.

Naruto is fully aware of this as *Kakashi* passed this on to Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke when he took them on as students. Did you forget that?



> And what would YOU have done if this were a real-world situation and Naruto was not the fictional 'hero' that we all knew would win anyway?



I'm not such a wuss that I fear the threat an enemy makes. I would do everything in my power to stop that enemy. I wouldn't threaten to kill one of my allies out of convenience. Basically Raikage came off as a coward to me. Not all cowards are afraid to fight. Some are afraid of things that may be and make rash decisions based on that fear. 



> Would you have taken that risk? Would you have let an ignorant, arrogant 16-year-old run off to the battlefield when you knew that on the chance he was captured, the world would end?



With the intelligence Konaha probably provided the alliance on Naruto's capabilities I wouldn't have hidden him away to begin with and I certainly wouldn't write him off. The world is likely to end if things go on the way they are. The alliance army is in shambles while Madara's assets are pretty much untouched.



> And this is something everyone seems to be overlooking:
> *The Raikage already saw Madara destroy one "Destined Child"*. Why should he expect Naruto, who he seems to be even less impressed with, to fare any better?



Why should I care what the Raikage thinks? He has the strategic mind of a stump. His first conclusion on not being able to persuade Naruto (with slobbery raging screams) was to kill him where he stood. He's ridiculous and frankly I can't see why you or anyone else would dare argue logic while defending him.

Don't get me wrong I don't hate the Raikage. I like him actually (within a certain context). The same way I like the Incredible Hulk and other badder than badass dudes of awesome. That's not the point though. However disliking Naruto and especially Naruto's ideals seems to be the basis for every pro-Raikage argument about this chapter (nearly).


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## Dattebayo-chan (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto is reacting normally. He threw away the normal ninja way where shinobi are nothing but emotionless tools during the very first arc. No one could possibly stand and watch everyone die to protect you, especially not with Naruto's history. The people who are finally acknowledging him are in trouble. 

Naruto has been ruled by his emotions a lot of times, but this is where some underestimate him. He's grown up and can control himself better. For all we know, he may have something in mind already. If not, he needs to get to the battlefield to figure it out. That's how he works. 

Also, this is war, things can go to hell no matter what you do, so it's hard to say that something is right or wrong.


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## MYJC (Jun 2, 2011)

Iovan said:


> Why should I care what the Raikage thinks? He has the strategic mind of a stump. His first conclusion on not being able to persuade Naruto (with slobbery raging screams) was to kill him where he stood. He's ridiculous and frankly I can't see why you or anyone else would dare argue logic while defending him.



Raikage is the leader of the shinobi alliance, it's his decision. He isn't obligated to persuade Naruto anyway, Naruto is his subordinate. Raikage was being more than nice enough by talking it out first. If you're in a war you can't just disregard your superior's orders whenever you disagree with them and then threaten your superior with violence if he tries to stop you. No army in the world would allow people to get away with that and in the real world you'd be arrested for treason if you pulled that.

And furthermore it wasn't his "first conclusion" to kill Naruto, in fact Naruto was the one that threatened to "force" his way through. Yes, NARUTO is the one who threatened to use violence because he couldn't get his way. He basically utterly disregarded the Raikage's orders and threatened to use force his way past him, and somehow the Raikage is the bad guy for saying no? You can't see how biased your being?

It's amazing how people think every character in the story should just bend over and do whatever Naruto wants them to.


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## Iovan (Jun 2, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Raikage is the leader of the shinobi alliance, it's his decision. He isn't obligated to persuade Naruto anyway, Naruto is his subordinate.



He doesn't have the authority to kill Naruto and Tsunade informed him of this. He didn't listen to that though so your argument falls apart when the supposed leader won't even follow the rules.



> Raikage was being more than nice enough by talking it out first.



That's why he interrupts Naruto before he explains himself fully right?

_SM Naruto > Pain_

Naruto: "Plus..."

Raikage: "ABAHLAHRLABLRHALBRLAHALHRBAL!1!!!!!11!!" *spit sprays everywhere*





> If you're in a war you can't just disregard your superior's orders whenever you disagree with them and then threaten your superior with violence if he tries to stop you. No army in the world would allow people to get away with that and in the real world you'd be arrested for treason if you pulled that.



This situation is a bit special. You can't simplify it to this without sounding ridiculous. Naruto isn't just a normal soldier in this army. In fact he wasn't told he was under the authority of a joint army to begin with. He was hidden away and not told anything because those who did know him knew he wouldn't sit down for this bullshit.



> And furthermore it wasn't his "first conclusion" to kill Naruto, in fact Naruto was the one that threatened to "force" his way through.



You're right. He didn't even try to converse with Naruto and decided to kill him after a couple half hearted attempts by Naruto to run past. I count from when the Raikage threatened lethal force as when he came to the conclusion to kill Naruto. Not when Naruto decided to make his KB seal.



> Yes, NARUTO is the one who threatened to use violence because he couldn't get his way.



Bullshit. He said he would force his way past and then went to run past. The Raikage wasn't being reasonable and it was wasting Naruto's precious time where those he cares about could be dying. That's not being arrogant or brattish in any way shape or form.



> He basically utterly disregarded the Raikage's orders and threatened to use force his way past him, and somehow the Raikage is the bad guy for saying no? You can't see how biased your being?



The Raikage wasn't the bad guy for wanting to keep Naruto and Bee safe. He crossed the line when he decided to kill Naruto out of convenience.



> It's amazing how people think every character in the story should just bend over and do whatever Naruto wants them to.



It's amazing how Naruto haters stoop to twisting things to bash him. I don't think everyone should bend over for Naruto. I don't think Naruto should accept false ideals and cowardice though either. The Raikage and the entire alliance are being cowards. They are fighting this war by Madara's rules and it has cost them dearly.


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## Frostman (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto is the one that got in the crouching position long before Raikage interrupted him. Naruto was the one that jumped first.

Also Naruto is wearing the leaf headband. So he is under Tsunade's authority. She has forbid him from entering the battlefield. Naruto is insubordinate, thats why he was kept in the dark.

Raikage wasn't using lethal force. If it was meant to be lethal then Raikage would put more force into it since he knows Naruto can take more than a half hearted hit like that.

He wants to kill Naruto because Naruto is being unreasonable.


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## Zarzamora-no-kimi (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto is a disrespectful, rebellious, naive, hot headed, bratty punk. Good intentions yes; he is strong headed and he doesn't waver, but still.

So what? Aren't characters supposed to have negative qualities in order to be realistic? Aren't we always looking for something that it's not irrevocably Mary-Suish? Naruto has being shat on enough not to be called that but there is still people out there that like to emphasize his humanity as if He. Had. To. Be. Better O.o

So the haters are always the one expecting the best of him. They want him to be smarter, they want him to be more level headed, they want him to follow orders...the fuck?

There is also the ones that accept him for his humanity but resent him because he seems to be always in the right (no consequences to his actions). But isn't he always being tread on and shouted at for those reasons? There has been other manga (if not television, book, movies) that actually ignore that certain part and let them characters go on when it's obvious it shouldn't be like that, but Kishi is always putting obvious, loud, strong barriers for Naruto to overcome and for people to think about. He is always encountering someone that has the antagonist side, and lately is has been Raikage the one to defy him. Raikage has made some very valid points in the past (very loud, very clear, and he is more known because he doesn't kiss the ground Naruto walks on) but those points have not reached a conclusion because Naruto has always (since part II) being on a stand point. The climax and the whole purpose of the war hasn't come yet, so we really cannot talk about consequences when the cause it's just starting.

His actions still haven't come to a conclusion to enable "the proper consequences" so it's rash to jump to the conclusion that he is always in the right when the manga is his but it really hasn't been that much about him until recently. REMEMBER PEOPLE, this is not about good or bad guys, it's about ideologies, even Madara thinks himself capable of bringing peace, but at what cost? He ends up just wanting the world for himself. Pain also wanted peace, hell, even Danzo did.

The difference from all of them it's that Naruto is willing to sacrifice himself (solely himself), whereas the others always looked for other means to do it (whatever it took). He appreciates and knows the meaning of a person's life because he grew up not taking it for granted (given his upbringing). He might believe more in protecting his friends than giving them more credit, but it goes both ways. The Alliance and some readers view him as a burden when in reality it would be easier for Madara to take him while Naruto is hidden away than in the tumult of war. What makes people think Naruto could not defend himself?


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

Zarzamora-no-kimi said:


> Naruto is a disrespectful, rebellious, naive, hot headed, bratty punk. Good intentions yes; he is strong headed and he doesn't waver, but still.
> 
> So what? Aren't characters supposed to have negative qualities in order to be realistic? Aren't we always looking for something that it's not irrevocably Mary-Suish? Naruto has being shat on enough not to be called that but there is still people out there that like to emphasize his humanity as if He. Had. To. Be. Better O.o
> 
> ...



try to act like naruto in life and see how far and well it gets you....................................


naruto gets a carebear costume, a carebear special effects and rainbow  colored blaster-powers (with no negative side-effect consequences as far  as the plot goes)

while ultimately intending to do essentially exactly the same thing that Madara wants.

but we are supposed to believe differently, since naruto is the Plot-Designated Superhero Prima-Dona.

so much that he now feels that he can say: Fuck you military regulations, fuck you Raikage and Hokage.

fuck you logic and common sense

fuck you hard truths of reality.

i'm the Motherfucking Plot's Chosen One Jesus, i will bring back and  brainwash sasuke into our fold and remove the kages and their silly  governments and laws out of the picture, bringing true peace to the  world with my carebears, rainbows and unicorns of RAW POWAAAAAAAHHHH.

behold your awesome Dictator of True Peace, Uzumaki Naruto.

Kishimoto's arrogant double-standard hypocrisy: overwhelming might is  right, POWAHH is okay as long as you dress it up in beautiful and  family-friendly special effects and colors.

sasuke at the very least is honest enough to admit that he's a fucked-up in  the head crazed on bloodthirst, sick-puppy ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) that must be put down  before he WILL PUT YOU DOWN.

naruto is still in denial that he's a Prima-Donna, his might is always RIGHT!!!!

*naruto:* like Okay i'm gonna really speed-jump REALLY SERIOUSLY this time .............

*Raikage-4:* lol no even with that "Mr.Miracle booster costume" you are still no where faster then me and i'm not really trying that much .

*naruto:* 

*Naruto:* believe in me as i believe in you

*Raikage:* you are not even quarter of the manly greatness that Lord.Kamina was.........ya pussy.

*Naruto:* 

Dick-Tatoring everyone into obeying you is okay as long as your costume and magic tricks are rainbow-pretty i guess.

that's why i don't give a shit about naruto in the battledom  calculations, i always know that he's always gonna survive and win  everyone and everything with his invincible Prima-Dona Superhero shield.

there are ZERO side-effect consequences for his combat super-powers.

naruto is overflowing with so much side-effect free upgrades and  power-ups that he can now afford to get on everyone's nerves with his  jesus complex.

common sense military regulations ? FUCK YOU I'M JESUS

Raikage and Hokage giving direct orders to stay down ? FUCK YOU I'M JESUS

are there gonna be any sort of negative consequences for naruto himself ? NO LOL I'M JESUS

therefore kishi's hypocrisy and double-standard is showing and why the  majority of combat-analysis fandom (and some others) ignore and detest  this invincible boring superhero sue character.


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## DiScO (Jun 2, 2011)

Op would you let your friends die  I wouldn`t and I couldn`t .Naruto is just being realistic there.


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## Empathy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yeah, the Raikage is correct. But in this Manga, were Naruto is the main protagonist, he will have his way, and have everyone including the Raikage believe in him. Even though he is indangering the entire world, for his own selfish motives. But I don't think killing Naruto would assist much. It would just end up doing what he is trying to stop Naruto from doing; Bringing the Kyuubi out in the open like that. Instead of Naruto bringing the Kyuubi out in the open, the Raikage will do it instead(albeit it will take some time to revive, but still). Plus the Kyuubi wouldn't exactly be on their side, and just pose more problems and issues for the Alliance who now would have to subdue the beast before Madara does, and take it back into their possession. The Kyuubi itself would definitely cause many casualties itself, upon it's release.


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

DiScO said:


> Op would you let your friends die  I wouldn`t and I couldn`t .Naruto is just being *realistic* there.



the problem is that:

everyone of their friends, family and allies had MADE IT CLEAR that they don't want them anywhere close to the battlefield right now, regardless if they are winning or losing.

naruto's and killerbee's plan hangs on their power potential being overwhelming enough to KILL Zetsu and his entire Regenerator Army, Kabuto and all his toys, Madara and Sasuke.............without a hitch or without Kyubbi's chakra screwing naruto himself first.


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## Saunion (Jun 2, 2011)

Raikage certainly isn't "right". Actually it's one of the stupidest decisions anyone has ever taken in this manga and it's pretty sad that some are so blinded by their hatred of Naruto that they can't see how disastrous killing Naruto would be for the relations between Alliance members as well as stopping Madara's plans.


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

Saunion said:


> Raikage certainly isn't "right". Actually it's one of the stupidest decisions anyone has ever taken in this manga and it's pretty sad that some are so blinded by their hatred of Naruto that they can't see how disastrous killing Naruto would be for the relations between Alliance members as well as stopping Madara's plans.



Killing Naruto is certainly stupid and overboard, locking him out (when EVERYONE agreed on that for now) isn't.


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## Hitomi (Jun 2, 2011)

everyone is finally getting tired of this kid's nonsense..


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## Zarzamora-no-kimi (Jun 2, 2011)

@butcher50

I didn't even read the whole post because my English is not good enough (or bad enough) to understand that O.o

But it comes with the same rebuttal.

It looks as if you didn't really bother to read my post, but I don't blame you, I didn't do that for yours either so...

Haters actually think Naruto is capable of all the fits he claims to have and even more. As if he is physically capable of entering the war and puff, suddenly transport everyone out there to be safe and cosy. As if he is actually capable of doing whatever (I mean whatever) he says he is going to do. You think that by him saying he is going to force himself on everyone and save them all he is actually gonna do it...and the you dislike him even more -_-


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## Saunion (Jun 2, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> Killing Naruto is certainly stupid and overboard, locking him out (when EVERYONE agreed on that for now) isn't.



So you're saying Raikage would be right if he took an entirely different decision then?


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

if naruto screws up so much that the remaining Alliance army has to bail him out which will cost them more blood and limbs then they would have paid for otherwise if naruto was following their plan....................where does that gets us ?


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

Saunion said:


> So you're saying Raikage would be right if he took an entirely different decision then?



overyone agreed that the Villain army is not weakened enough to employ the Bijuus right out in the open without screwing themselves over by accomplishing exactly what the super-villains wanted (and god help you if they succeed)

the Bijuu Powers must be used, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW.


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## MYJC (Jun 2, 2011)

Saunion said:


> So you're saying Raikage would be right if he took an entirely different decision then?



No, it was the Raikage (and the ninja alliance's) decision to keep him out of the war. Raikage only threatened to kill him because he was being insubordinate and threatened to force his way through. The plan was for Naruto to stay out of the war but if he won't do that, then killing him is preferable to letting him rush into the middle of the battlefield, ruin the alliance's plans, and paint a giant target on himself for Madara.

You're acting like Raikage just randomly decided to kill Naruto, but in actuality Naruto is forcing his hand. He doesn't WANT to kill Naruto but it's either that or let him rush off and probably be captured.


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## hcheng02 (Jun 2, 2011)

Saunion said:


> Raikage certainly isn't "right". Actually it's one of the stupidest decisions anyone has ever taken in this manga and it's pretty sad that some are so blinded by their hatred of Naruto that they can't see how disastrous killing Naruto would be for the relations between Alliance members as well as stopping Madara's plans.



This. Naruto is now a great hero in Konoha, and killing him under any circumstances during the war would cause a major upheaval/ mutiny between the Konoha nins and everyone else. Killing Naruto when the Alliance is under siege by perfect spies is even stupider. Let me spell it out for everyone.

Raikage: I just killed Naruto for insubordination. Now we brought time so Madara can't complete his plan!

Random Konoha nin: Hey, I thought we were supposed to protect the Jinns! How do we know the Raikage isn't some Zetsu spy?

Raikage: I'm not a spy...

Random Konoha nin: How do you prove that? How do we know the HQ isn't compromised or that you're not in league with Madara? You were willing to kill our jin but not your villages. That seems awfully suspicious...

Congratulations Raikage, you just magnified the insubordination problem a thousand fold. 



butcher50 said:


> Killing Naruto is certainly stupid and overboard, locking him out (when EVERYONE agreed on that for now) isn't.



First of all, the decision to keep the jinnchuriki's out of the front lines was reached by split decision via narrow majority (3 Kages for VS 2 Kages against). So that's hardly a unanimous decision. Second of all, a leader should be able to display flexibility of thinking. Since the jinns are out already, you might as well use them constructively.


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## Saunion (Jun 2, 2011)

MYJC said:


> No, it was the Raikage (and the ninja alliance's) decision to keep him out of the war. Raikage only threatened to kill him because he was being insubordinate and threatened to force his way through. The plan was for Naruto to stay out of the war but if he won't do that, then killing him is preferable to letting him rush into the middle of the battlefield, ruin the alliance's plans, and paint a giant target on himself for Madara.
> 
> You're acting like Raikage just randomly decided to kill Naruto, but in actuality Naruto is forcing his hand. He doesn't WANT Naruto but it's either that or let him rush off and probably be captured.



How the fuck is that "preferable"? Can you understand, on top of the situation created by Zetsu the chaos it'd create among the alliance ranks if news that Raikage killed Naruto were out in the open? You think the Konoha guys and Gaara would go all "oh well, it was the best decision anyway"? 

I think it's hilarious how everyone gets on Naruto's case for "disturbing the Alliance's plans" but shit like that is apparently perfectly acceptable. 

Raikage could have simply beaten up Naruto to unconsciousness to lock him down again. Trying to KILL him is absolutely retarded, and everyone arguing otherwise is letting their distate for the character of Naruto cloud their judgement.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 2, 2011)

I'll put it this way, Kishimoto knew exactly what he was doing when he had Raikage lose his arm, simply look at the imagery from the story. Raikage is literally a man trying to fight a war one-handed. What does that tell you?


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> First of all, the decision to keep the jinnchuriki's out of the front lines was reached by split decision via narrow majority (3 Kages for VS 2 Kages against). So that's hardly a unanimous decision. Second of all, a leader should be able to display flexibility of thinking. Since the jinns are out already, you might as well use them constructively.



what do we do when naruto fucks everything up in Madara's favor ?


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## hcheng02 (Jun 2, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> what do we do when naruto fucks everything up in Madara's favor ?
> 
> everybody and everything...............DIES.



And killing Naruto now would have the entire army question whether the leadership is compromised. The army would be left rudderless and Madara slaughters them all. In short, having Naruto and Bee join the fight now *might *fuck everything up in Madara's favor. Raikage killing Naruto now would *defintely *fuck everything up in Madara's favor.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 2, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> what do we do when naruto fucks everything up in Madara's favor ?
> 
> everybody and everything...............DIES.



They would die either way since no one in the Alliance has a better chance of stopping him. It's not like Killer Bee & Naruto were untouchable where they were hiding. Madara can get to Naruto whenever he wants, or did you forget Madara's nighttime visit to Naruto's hotel room.


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> And killing Naruto now would have the entire army question whether the leadership is compromised. The army would be left rudderless and Madara slaughters them all. In short, having Naruto and Bee join the fight now *might *fuck everything up in Madara's favor. Raikage killing Naruto now would *defintely *fuck everything up in Madara's favor.



i don't approve of Raikage's short-fused decision to try and kill Naruto.


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## Dejablue (Jun 2, 2011)

If Naruto went into this with even an inkling of a plan of attack then I'd be 100% for him jumping into the war.  But he's just going "let me at em let me at em!"  and it's kinda bothering me.  I hope that Naruto's behavior will be leveled out with him getting rofl stomped by Madara. But that is a really bleak hope.  It's just that I'm freaking sick of him being right about everything all the time.

  I'm also tired of his Talk no Jutsu winning over other people's mindsets.  If Naruto has to make it past Raikage at least treat us to a* fight*.

In Naruto's favor, killing him would be a bad idea.  It's not like Madara needs his retarded moon plan in order to take over the entire Shinobi world.  Yes the death of a Jinchuriki would buy them more time but to what end?  There is no guarantee that they'd be able to locate Madara again and if so could they even defeat him? I highly doubt that.

All I can say is. If Naruto gets his way (and he is as he always does)  He better shed fuck tons of blood.  His victory better not be easy.


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## Axis (Jun 2, 2011)

What Naruto is doing is selfish but because of that it is human and isn't this manga about people learning to be human in a world they are considered and treated like tools?

Once again everyone is thinking only about the mission, about stopping Madara at all costs so the world doesn't end. But if the alliance indeed wins the war, defeats Madara and the world is safe, does anyone think about what is left behind?  Thousands of lost lives, misery, pain and hatred. But hooray the world didn't end! 

It's just like Nagato said about trying to see a greater meaning behind the slaughter when in fact there is nothing but hatred and pain that you can do nothing about.

Naruto takes a much riskier road, it's true, but it's one that isn't inflicted by fear and bitterness (just look at Raikage himself how bitter and miserable he obviously is), it's one where you are allowed to be a human being, to think about your feelings, where finding your inner peace is more important than keeping safe a world that is filled with misery. 

Obito's and Naruto's ideals are about finding your _inner peace_ through giving into who you truly are, basically letting yourself be, even if on this path is not so certain how things will turn out - 'cause until people make pecae with themselves, there will never be peace in the world no matter how intact everything is kept.

It is a very idealistic view so it's understandable if people can't stomach it but then again, you only realise after 500 chapters that you don't like what the manga stands for?


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

Axis said:


> What Naruto is doing is selfish but because of that it is human and isn't this manga about people learning to be human in a world they are considered and treated like tools?
> 
> Once again everyone is thinking only about the mission, about stopping Madara at all costs so the world doesn't end. But if the alliance indeed wins the war, defeats Madara and the world is safe, does anyone think about what is left behind?  Thousands of lost lives, misery, pain and hatred. But hooray the world didn't end!
> 
> ...



i don't like Kishi's hypocrisy.

but his characters and this universe have outgrown him.


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## Dejablue (Jun 2, 2011)

One reason I'm upset is because it looks like Bee is following him all the way to the end.  He's probably gonna die.

I understand having great power equals great responsibility.  But I hate the Jesus complex.  I don't like how Naruto thinks he can shoulder everyone's hate.  As if hate is just some physical manifestation.  As if Naruto has the mental capacity to understand what hate means to thousands of other people.  Not in a million years.

I hate that a story that used  to have teamwork as a central theme has degenerated into 1 on 1 god battles.  The war should have been a counter weight to that but the pacing was bad and more confusing than exciting.

At the same time.  What Naruto is trying to do is both stupid and the best possible idea anyone has come up with.  At this point it is impossible for the Alliance to win this war.  Naruto and Bee are the last line of defense.  If they get captured, everyone is screwed.  But there is the possibility that they will succeed.  

Either way Madara will find Naruto or Naruto will find Madara.  I wish this war had never happened though for that very reason.  It was just a complete waste of time.


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## ashher (Jun 2, 2011)

This is why i like this manga a lot. I feel that someone in raikage's shoes would exactly do what he is doing. And while i may or may not support what naruto's doing,but i can definitely understand why someone would react like that in his shoes. 

Ppl call kishimoto hypocrite,but its really a foolish thing to do. An author's job isn't to be continuous with any particular ideal,cause the world isn't like that. Different character's motives and ideals will always be different and their actions will have to contradictory and conflicting.


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## ashher (Jun 2, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> i don't like Kishi's hypocrisy.
> 
> but his characters and this universe have outgrown him.



This is the foolishness i'm talking about. how could it be a hypocrisy for him,or how can his characters outgrow him,the author? His characters validate or justify things from each of their povs and its to his credit that he's been able to depict them so well that the readers of a goddamn shonen manga actually finds themselves engrossed in topics like this...about right and wrong and idealistic vs realistic...and we can't agree even in the case created by a freaking shonen manga...that's a great credit to the author.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jun 2, 2011)

At least he has good intentions. The Raikage is a hot-headed moron. He's willing to sacrifice Naruto's life and not Bee's. He says he'd kill Bee "when that time came" but that's just bull shit. Killing Naruto would solve nothing. Then everyone would die and it would be a cakewalk for Madara to just wait and get the Nine Tails later. The Raikage is a meathead. Not suited to be the leader of anything. The only reason he's the Raikage is because of his incredible power and speed. Bee is a much better candidate for Raikage. He's powerful and he uses logic.

Naruto wanted to protect his friends. There's nothing "whinny" about that. He made a good point... If all his comrades die protecting him then what's the point of waiting for that to happen. He can help right now and possibly save thousands of lives.

Believe me, it takes a special character to get _me_ to defend _Naruto_... but Raikage fits that bill.


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## butcher50 (Jun 2, 2011)

ashher said:


> This is the foolishness i'm talking about. how could it be a hypocrisy for him,or how can his characters outgrow him,the author? His characters validate or justify things from each of their povs and its to his credit that he's been able to depict them so well that the readers of a goddamn shonen manga actually finds themselves engrossed in topics like this...about right and wrong and idealistic vs realistic...and we can't agree even in the case created by a freaking shonen manga...that's a great credit to the author.



there is no excuse going around disobeying and disrespecting your officers because you are the strongest and luckiest military asset in the base.

none.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 2, 2011)

So Naru is a bastard or selfish prick or whatever, for wanting to protect his friends?


Besides Tobi would've found a way to get Naru and Bee anyway.Lol, at people who think that the Alliance would've stopped him.


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## navy (Jun 2, 2011)

Spoiled? Selfish? 


Naruto is being an arrogant badass, accept it


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 2, 2011)

people making excuses that madara will actually capture the main character when he should've done it really sums up the low IQ that is th NF


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## MYJC (Jun 2, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> So Naru is a bastard or selfish prick or whatever, for wanting to protect his friends?
> 
> 
> Besides Tobi would've found a way to get Naru and Bee anyway.Lol, at people who think that the Alliance would've stopped him.





navy said:


> Spoiled? Selfish?
> 
> 
> Naruto is being an arrogant badass, accept it





No, he's not selfish for wanting to help his friends, he's selfish because he wants to endanger everything and everyone just so he doesn't have to feel bad about staying out of the war. He's putting his desire to soothe his own conscience over the well being of the entire world.

Raikage on the other hand is mature enough to realize that doing what's best for the world is more important than your personal feelings.

*wonders how many times he'll have to repeat this*


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 2, 2011)

MYJC said:


> No, he's not selfish for wanting to help his friends, he's selfish because he wants to endanger everything and everyone just so he doesn't have to feel bad about staying out of the war. He's putting his desire to soothe his own conscience over the well being of the entire world.
> 
> Raikage on the other hand is mature enough to realize that doing what's best for the world is more important than your personal feelings.
> 
> **wonders how many times he'll have to repeat this**



I wonder the same thing 



> *Besides Tobi would've found a way to get Naru and Bee anyway.Lol, at people who think that the Alliance would've stopped him.*



Raikage is stupid enough to think that their "great genius" plan would've worked.

Naru on the other hand knows about the prophecy, knows that he is the one destined to save the world.

The Alliance was screwed either way, at least Naru will save many people now.


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## navy (Jun 2, 2011)

MYJC said:


> No, he's not selfish for wanting to help his friends, he's selfish because he wants to endanger everything and everyone just so he doesn't have to feel bad about staying out of the war. He's putting his desire to soothe his own conscience over the well being of the entire world.
> 
> Raikage on the other hand is mature enough to realize that doing what's best for the world is more important than your personal feelings.
> 
> *wonders how many times he'll have to repeat this*



No, because the alliance is getting shitted on and cant possibly win without Naruto.

Raikage isnt mature enough to keep a cool head.

*Besides Madara doesnt need Naruto to do his plan when he has the Kin/Gin bros.. So Naruto not helping is a dumbass idea. *


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## Drums (Jun 2, 2011)

After reading some of the posts here, it appears to me that the OP has trouble understanding the meaning of the word impulsive, which is Naruto's character sum up, pretty much. When you learn to understand the difference between apples and pears( in this case, arrogant and impulsive) then come and post again.


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## mayumi (Jun 2, 2011)

Lol, naruto should just let his parents sacrifise be in vain. naruto hides in a cave while everyone gets killed then raikage decides he has no option but kill naruto. So either way naruto needs to die. Why not naruto try fighting and if he gets killed he can take the kyuubi with him.


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## Samochan (Jun 2, 2011)

So, how's Raikage not being arrogant here, thinking he can make a joint decision to just kill off Naruto and his brother who are both essential people of this war effort?

It's good neither listen to what A spouts from his mouth, being as hypocritical as it is. Telling them to go back for not following orders, while breaking the rules himself.

Least Naruto is listening to what his heart tells him to do, I cannot find arrogance in thinking how he must go and help those in the battlefield, who just happen to also die because they need to protect him. We all know he can make quite a difference with Tajuu Kage Bunshin alone and take on the big guns of Edo tensei with sage mode/RM mode. Not nearly everyone has the potential to take on S-ranked nins. 

So why wouldn't he, massive powerhouse, go help his chuunin friends on a battlefield that's fought essentially for his sake? I don't think he ever said he could win this war, all he ever said that he wants to help others and make a difference. He'd prolly feel pretty bad if he didn't do shit about it and everyone he knew and everyone he didn't, just got killed and he just sat on his ass contemplating when Madara's gonna fetch him. The war effort is cearly not going well and he sensed it, what 50k people ded, so he's ready to essentially out himself to risk being captured for his friends, just to make a difference, that perhaps more people might survive this war.

And speaking of which, why aren't the Kage participating? They're just sitting on their fancy lounge getting information about more and more people getting killed and sip some more green tea and perhaps strategize a bit how to proceed in lessening their amount of victims (except gaara, he's cool like that). Half of their forces got annihilated, basically. Hell, tsunade alone could have probably kept half of them alive with just her summon and chakra. So essentially they don't seem to care much and then proceed to tear to naruto for caring so much.

But you know what they say, those who don't follow orders are trash, but those who don't care for their comrades are worse than trash. If Naruto didn't care, he'd be one hell of an trash type hero huh. What would people say when he was finally there to save the day, as per rules of the kage council, only there to be nothing left for him to save? People would spat in his direction, demanding him why he didn't come sooner when he was needed, asking him does he mock them with his presence there? A trash hero, indeed.


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## Danchou (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto needs to shut up and do as he's told.


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## Saunion (Jun 2, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Naruto needs to shut up and do as he's told.



Yeah, and if he did that people would call him a bitch and not a good main character because he does nothing while his friends die for him.

Face it at this point he's some sort of male Sakura for a certain part of this manga's fandom. No matter what he does he's getting bashed.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 2, 2011)

Danchou said:


> Naruto needs to shut up and do as he's told.



Yeah shut up until Tobi, Sascake, Kabuto, Zetsu kill everyone and capture Naru and Bee anyway.Genius


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## Danchou (Jun 2, 2011)

His friends aren't just dying for him. They're fighting for their self interest as well. The Alliance is fighting to keep the eight and nine tails out of Madara's hands so that he can't complete his plan and control the world. They would have succeeded because there was no possibility for Madara to get his hands on Hachibi and Kyuubi if Naruto and Bee had just stayed put.

Naruto's trampling all over the resolve and sacrifices of the Alliance. All emotion and no logic. The typical characteristics of an arrogant brat.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 2, 2011)

> They would have succeeded because there was no possibility for Madara to get his hands on Hachibi and Kyuubi if Naruto and Bee had just stayed put.



And you base this on what exactly? Tobi was gonna go and capture Naru and Be on the island before Kabuto interfered (because he has his own interests to look after)

And how was the Alliance gonna stop Akatsuki from taking what they want?You do realize that the Alliance is doing very bad right now, Tobi is already acting on his plan thanks to Kin and Gin and Akatsuki haven't even unleashed it's most powerful weapons yet


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## Saunion (Jun 2, 2011)

Danchou said:


> His friends aren't just dying for him. They're fighting for their self interest as well. The Alliance is fighting to keep the eight and nine tails out of Madara's hands so that he can't complete his plan and control the world. They would have succeeded because there was no possibility for Madara to get his hands on Hachibi and Kyuubi if Naruto and Bee had just stayed put.



...

Are you serious?


----------



## Sorin (Jun 2, 2011)

I wonder who can stand up to Madara, Gedo Mazou, a bunch of regenerating powerful edos, Kabuto and Sasuke from the alliance? 

You should have realized by now that the alliance isn't strong enough to take on Madara and co.Sure Raikage doesn't know this and he thinks they stand a chance but on the other hand the hatred for Naruto is too strong for people to at least aknowledge that standing put isn't a good decision either.Sooner or later Naruto and Bee will have to face their hunters.The question is when's the right time to do this? Wait till most of the alliance is dead or help them destroy some of their powerful foes while most of the alliance's military forces are still high?


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 2, 2011)

Danchou said:


> His friends aren't just dying for him. They're fighting for their self interest as well. The Alliance is fighting to keep the eight and nine tails out of Madara's hands so that he can't complete his plan and control the world. They would have succeeded because there was no possibility for Madara to get his hands on Hachibi and Kyuubi if Naruto and Bee had just stayed put.


The problem is the plan was a failure to start with I don't need to remind you that Madara got Kisame hidden within Samehada who at any time could of sent a message to Madara who then could of teleported to the turtle island with Zetsu, Kabuto and Sasuke somehow I can't see Iruka stopping them and Naruto and Bee against all them plus the E.T Kabuto can summon I don't rate there chances it was tactical blunder by the alliance not to use Bee and Naruto on the front lines created through fear and it's no way to win a war



> Naruto's trampling all over the resolve and sacrifices of the Alliance. All emotion and no logic. The typical characteristics of an arrogant brat


Naruto never asked them to sacrifice themselves for him so whether he is trampling over there feelings if they are proffesional they will get over it Gaara said to Naruto that he had to be prepared to act like a Hokage and this is one of the times where he is doing things that are necessary even if people hate him for it as it is for the overall good of everyone


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 2, 2011)

I still gotta laugh at all the haters in this thread. Fuck the Raikage. I like him as a character, but he's a huge douchebag. Threatening to kill Naruto when he realizes he's not gonna get his way....I know this is a work of fiction, but Raikage's response reminds me of that of an angry dictator. Naruto may be an immature 16 year old, but well, it's a shounen. Do fans of One Piece whine and bitch about Luffy running into battle if it results in an awesome fight? Fuck no.

Let the haters hate, it's funny....because that's all they're doing.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 2, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> I still gotta laugh at all the haters in this thread. Fuck the Raikage. I like him as a character, but he's a huge douchebag. Threatening to kill Naruto when he realizes he's not gonna get his way....I know this is a work of fiction, but Raikage's response reminds me of that of an angry dictator. Naruto may be an immature 16 year old, but well, it's a shounen. Do fans of One Piece whine and bitch about Luffy running into battle if it results in an awesome fight? Fuck no.
> 
> Let the haters hate, it's funny.



This is just about it I think fans of rookies / side characters were hoping for each one like Lee etc to get an individual fight where they go all out which has not worked out and now that Naruto is entering there laying the hate down on him fact is before Naruto was going to the war the plot was severely stagnating


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## SunnyMoonstone (Jun 2, 2011)

He has one solid and logical way out of this that would make them listen too him let him help right now. But using this argument would actually call for shutting up and thinking 10 seconds, so I doubt he'll use it. Leroying only isn't moronic of it's the only way which here it isn't. 

A is right and Naruto is acting a arrogant brat (justified somewhat but still one), but really it doesn't matter as he'll get his way and be right somehow. Tho I do hope he gets some kind of karmic punishment for this soon or later.


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## MYJC (Jun 2, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> I still gotta laugh at all the haters in this thread. Fuck the Raikage. I like him as a character, but he's a huge douchebag. Threatening to kill Naruto when he realizes he's not gonna get his way....I know this is a work of fiction, but Raikage's response reminds me of that of an angry dictator. Naruto may be an immature 16 year old, but well, it's a shounen. Do fans of One Piece whine and bitch about Luffy running into battle if it results in an awesome fight? Fuck no.
> 
> Let the haters hate, it's funny....because that's all they're doing.



1.Naruto was the one that threatened his superior with violence. And quite frankly, killing Naruto beats letting Madara get him because Naruto insists on running to the front lines and making himself a target.

2. Luffy is and always has been a criminal and a lawless pirates. Furthermore Luffy is does not put the entire world at risk by rushing into a fight as there's no one in OP trying to take over the world. And unlike Naruto, Luffy is actually the leader of his crew so he's within his right to make that decision.


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## Sorin (Jun 2, 2011)

MYJC said:


> 1.Naruto was the one that threatened his superior with violence. And quite frankly, killing Naruto beats letting Madaraget him.





lolno...killing him means one less weapon against madara.

If they get rid of their most powerful weapons how the hell does he think he has a chance at killing him?They'll end dead anyway.Think for crying out loud.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 2, 2011)

MYJC said:


> 1.Naruto was the one that threatened his superior with violence. And quite frankly, killing Naruto beats letting Madara get him because Naruto insists on running to the front lines and making himself a target.


So....who cares? I don't. Raikage would be fighting Naruto to kill him, while Naruto wouldn't be. Raikage's the bigger douchebag here, in my opinion. At this point in the storyline, Madara supposedly has a back-up plan in case he can't get the 9-tails anyways (Kin/Gin), so even if Naruto stays put like the Raikage wants him to, doesn't really guarantee anything for the Alliance. They can still get raped to hell and back by Madara and his forces.



MYJC said:


> 2. Luffy is and always has been a criminal and a lawless pirates. Furthermore Luffy is does not put the entire world at risk by rushing into a fight as there's no one in OP trying to take over the world. And unlike Naruto, Luffy is actually the leader of his crew so he's within his right to make that decision.


Ask me if I care. Whatever your or my opinion may be, we both know that things will work out for the Alliance in the end, because Kishimoto says so. And the Alliance aren't exactly doing too hot right now as it is, either. They need some help from Naruto and Bee.


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## Faither (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto is and will be right in terms of everything working out for him in the end, but I feel his reasoning is absurd, and the whole gate-crashing scenario has made him come across exceptionally poorly. Perhaps this is why Raikage resorted to death-threats this chapter, to make him seem even more unreasonable than Naruto, which worked I suppose, but unfortunately leads to _both_ characters coming across as infantile instead of merely Naruto, hooray.

Writing in a straw man taking the other side in a farcical fashion doesn't really help your protagonist look like less of a fool.


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## Dejablue (Jun 2, 2011)

At this point all I can think about is how strong Madara is.  Naruto has gotten all of these free power ups.  Will it be easy for him to defeat Madara?  Maybe Naruto is already playing into his hands?  Maybe not.  But I hope so.  It would be hilarious if, despite how stupid Raikage's logic is, and Naruto's inevitable TnJ attack in combo with flashbacks, he is ultimately right and Naruto gets in over his head.


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## Gabe (Jun 2, 2011)

not really since naruto is suppose to be the savior of the world even A knows about the prophecy and he was told minato was. if he knew naruto was the true savior of the world he would change his mind. A was being unreasonable because naruto knows he has to protect his friends and the world A doe snot seems to realize madara has gin and kin the world is fucked with or with out naruto. even if naruto stayed hidden madara  will still revive the juubi.


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## Gabe (Jun 2, 2011)

Dejablue said:


> At this point all I can think about is how strong Madara is.  Naruto has gotten all of these free power ups.  Will it be easy for him to defeat Madara?  Maybe Naruto is already playing into his hands?  Maybe not.  But I hope so.  It would be hilarious if, despite how stupid Raikage's logic is, and Naruto's inevitable TnJ attack in combo with flashbacks, he is ultimately right and Naruto gets in over his head.



when did naruto get free power ups. also you know naruto will be right in the end and save everyone.


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## Dejablue (Jun 2, 2011)

when I say in over his head I mean when he does win it will be by the skin of his teeth. Of course he will win because he's the hero.  But the win better not be easy


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 2, 2011)

He's doing exactly what I would do.


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## vagnard (Jun 2, 2011)

I agree with you. If this was a good manga this could be handle well. 

But given this is Naruto, he has license as main character to shit all over the orders and will of other people and still be proven "right" at the end. 

Raikage is right, but sadly now Naruto is Jesus second coming he will be able to force his will over the world.


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## Sorin (Jun 2, 2011)

How is killing him right?


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## vagnard (Jun 2, 2011)

Sorin said:


> How is killing him right?



It could be extreme. But given Naruto is risking the whole world it's the right choice given he isn't willing to follow orders and he already prove it's impossible to restrain him. 

Wasn't that the same argument was given for Uchiha Massacre?. Kill them for the sake of the world given their rebellion was risking a Fourth ninja war?


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## hcheng02 (Jun 2, 2011)

vagnard said:


> It could be extreme. But given Naruto is risking the whole world it's the right choice given he isn't willing to follow orders and he already prove it's impossible to restrain him.
> 
> Wasn't that the same argument was given for Uchiha Massacre?. Kill them for the sake of the world given their rebellion was risking a Fourth ninja war?



No, killing Naruto is not the right choice because it would completely undermine the unity of the alliance right when it is undergoing enormous strain under Madara's sneak attack. 

Also the difference between Naruto's situation now and the Uchiha Massacre is that Naruto just wants to help and if he's given the proper supervision and direction he can easily help the Alliance regain the initiative. Whereas the Uchiha was intentionally trying to screw over the village and could not be convinced to do otherwise, assuming that part of Madara's story is correct that is.


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## navy (Jun 2, 2011)

Kin/Gin substitute says hi.


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## BlueBird (Jun 2, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> No, killing Naruto is not the right choice because it would completely undermine the unity of the alliance right when it is undergoing enormous strain under Madara's sneak attack.
> 
> Also the difference between Naruto's situation now and the Uchiha Massacre is that Naruto just wants to help and if he's given the proper supervision and direction he can easily help the Alliance regain the initiative. Whereas the Uchiha was intentionally trying to screw over the village and could not be convinced to do otherwise, assuming that part of Madara's story is correct that is.



Nah, I think the Uchiha massacre comparison is actually valid here but it can be used in your favour.

Danzo and elders essentially had the same beliefs as Raikage. I bet Sandaime could find other peaceful solutions in time and probably could discover some evidence of Madara plotting, but alas, a more militaristic decision was taken. At least in Uchiha case we see that those "sacrifice some people for the greater good" decisions are evil and breed hatred as proved by the very much evil Sasuke 

In parallel, if Raikage hypothetically goes for a kill, I can't imagine what chaos would break out when Alliance finds out. As though Kumo and Konoha do not have enough history to spark a conflict.

In perspective both decisions seem like a preemptive tactics, like a safe bet - a little cowardly (for standard shounen) strategy to fend against hypothetical pessimistic "what if" scenarios that may never happen.


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## Soul (Jun 2, 2011)

*Naruto not fighting the war is extremely stupid*

Not sure if this was made before, as the Search Function sucks.

So the 5 Kages agreed that Naruto shouldn't fight because Madara could capture him, and then extract the Kyuubi.

However, we all know that Ma and Pa can reverse summon him at whim.
Wouldn't that solve the entire issue?

Just assign a tracker that keeps Naruto in check, and, if anything goes wrong, Pa can reverse summon him to Konoha.


Thoughts?


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## Kai (Jun 2, 2011)

Sasuke's portrayal has changed over time, from being the evil one to being the misguided one. A couple of characters have already expressed that Madara was the manga's ultimate evil, while general (recent) conversations about Sasuke involve shit like "erasing the hatred from his heart" and "understanding him."

His fights were with only one of two purposes, or both: 
A) To improve his doujutsu. This has been stated by Madara.
B) He is being puppeteer'd by Madara. Notice how Sasuke always eventually submits to Madara's subtle persuasions.


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## hmph (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm sure theres ways around it. Contract seal, for example.


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## SageRafa (Jun 2, 2011)

Soul is correct . As always 

Saw you sig and couldn't resist  But yes you're right .. Or what about making a Kage Bunshin at the island and then the KB could reverse-summon the Real Naruto just like he did in the battle against Pain ..

Or Naruto could make TKB in SM and let the clones wipe out every Zetsu Clone


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jun 2, 2011)

That sounds right to me, but it may not sound right to the kages. Madara may use a as- yet undiscovered justu to prevent teleportation. It works in Hogwarts, doesn't it?


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## Soul (Jun 2, 2011)

hmph said:


> I'm sure theres ways around it. Contract seal, for example.



Not a problem for the scenario I used.

It pretty simple.
Naruto enters Sage Mode, runs at them, fires 1-2 Fuuton: RasenShuriken to wreck shit, and then he is reverse summoned. Rinse and repeat

It's a cheap as hell tactic, but this is a war.



SageRafa said:


> Soul is correct . As always



I do try.



> Or what about making a Kage Bunshin at the island and then the KB could reverse-summon the Real Naruto just like he did in the battle against Pain ..



That would also work.



> Or Naruto could make TKB in SM and let the clones wipe out every Zetsu Clone



The possibilities are endless.



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> That sounds right to me, but it may not sound right to the kages. Madara may use a as- yet undiscovered justu to prevent teleportation. It works in Hogwarts, doesn't it?



If Madara does has that, then the Kages, canonically, don't have knowledge of it.
And he doesn't needs to get captured; Naruto is quite fast now, and he is also a sensor.


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## Luffyfangirl24 (Jun 2, 2011)

I agree, I wanted to see Naruto fight in the War, it'd be so stupid if they waited till the last second to fight.


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## Eraeleas (Jun 2, 2011)

He can't help it, hes all Yang.  I too hope he gets fixed to balance at the end of all this.


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## Neptun (Jun 2, 2011)

I think it's related to the fact that Kishi was not sure where to go with Sasuke's character at first.


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## Nuzents (Jun 2, 2011)

Raikage just doesn't have all the facts, it doesn't matter what Naruto does honestly.  He says Bee can fight if Naruto is dead since Kyuubi will be dead (temp).  But we all know that Madara is proceeding with his plans without the 2 host so they might as well include them on the battlefield.


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## Pervy Fox (Jun 2, 2011)

There is still the second day of the war so he'll still have a chance to fight in the battlefield, most likely he'll join in once the main villians make ther move.


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## Neptun (Jun 2, 2011)

of course that's a legit point, but the problem is, Reverse Summoning is one of those skills that can be incredibly broken and therefore must not be abused as such. 
The Transformation Technique also has incredible hax-potential, that's why Kishi prevents anyone from using it in the first place, you see where I'm getting with this?


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## SaVaGe609 (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto's philosophy is good, but it's unreasonable IMO.


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## Sera (Jun 2, 2011)

I always thought it's because Kishi wanted Naruto and Sasuke to be binary opposites. Naruto is light and Sasuke is darkness.


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## Forlong (Jun 2, 2011)

Kishimoto:

"Oh crap, I forgot about that!  Uh...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yCtH2xUBXg[/YOUTUBE]

LOOK AT THE KEYS!  LOOK AT THE KEYS!"


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## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks to you Soul 

Kishi just facepalmed himself into unconciousness 



Entire Naruto Writer staff:


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jun 2, 2011)

Lady Orihime said:


> Thanks to you Soul
> 
> Kishi just facepalmed himself into unconciousness
> 
> ...



Batman wrote naruto!


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## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Batman wrote naruto!



 


He wishes, that punk is just interning for Nami


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## Naruto (Jun 2, 2011)

My guess is that if it was that simple, they would do it for every important ninja in the army.

Unmentioned-inconveniences-no-jutsu!


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## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto said:


> My guess is that if it was that simple, they would do it for every important ninja in the army.
> 
> Unmentioned-inconveniences-no-jutsu!



 


But that totally makes sense. 

They would especially just do that for the daiymo as well


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## Sorin (Jun 2, 2011)

vagnard said:


> It could be extreme. But given Naruto is risking the whole world it's the right choice given he isn't willing to follow orders and he already prove it's impossible to restrain him.
> 
> Wasn't that the same argument was given for Uchiha Massacre?. Kill them for the sake of the world given their rebellion was risking a Fourth ninja war?



The alliance will just lose a weapon which could help them defeat Madara.Let's say that by killing Naruto they stop Madara from completing his "eye plan".Do they have the means to kill him w/o Naruto?Wouldn't Madara kill them anyway?

Uchiha were ploting against Konoha.Naruto wants to help them in the war.


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 2, 2011)

Like Kabuto does to his summons?


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## Yagami_ (Jun 2, 2011)

vagnard said:


> Wasn't that the same argument was given for Uchiha Massacre?. Kill them for the sake of the world given their rebellion was risking a Fourth ninja war?



It was, even though it was a shitty justification.  But if you notice, alot of the people who justified and applauded the Uchiha massacre are the same ones who disagree with Raikage killing Naruto for the sake of the world.

That's NF for you


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## Bane (Jun 2, 2011)

Closet Pervert said:


> Like Kabuto does to his summons?



You sir, deserve the look of approval. Just imagine this but more approving ಠ_ಠ


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## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

Closet Pervert said:


> Like Kabuto does to his summons?



 Although you look like a mental patient on first sight, there is actually a lot of truth in these words


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Jun 2, 2011)

My thoughts are he is a genderly confused a-sexual ladyboy who can't fight his own battles has to find something to cry about...were his family fine he would be all homicidal over the fact itachi got more girls then him...he is not the next big evil he is not even right hand man material he is merely eye candy for all these creepy older men who like having a fresh young face about the place...


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## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> My thoughts are he is a genderly confused a-sexual ladyboy who can't fight his own battles has to find something to cry about...were his family fine he would be all homicidal over the fact itachi got more girls then him...he is not the next big evil he is not even right hand man material he is merely eye candy for all these creepy older men who like having a fresh young face about the place...



Harsh toke dude :sanji 





Thats a little too much man 



He is simply the Anti Naruto 

Just like Vegeta was the Anti Goku 

Almost every story has them. 

Sauce is this story's anti hero


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Jun 2, 2011)

You're comparing vegeta to sasuke?!?!...there is an angel somewhere crying because of that


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## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> You're comparing vegeta to sasuke?!?!...there is an angel somewhere crying because of that



No i would have burst into flames already from such blasphemy 


I am simply stating for the purposes of this manga Sasuke is the Anti Naruto.



Just like for the DBZ series Vegeta is the Anti Goku. 


Not comparing them as a character/power/attitude, just stating in terms of plot relevence they are the same


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Jun 2, 2011)

lol i hear what you're saying although i honestly see him as initial fan service which has only through popularity evolved into naruto's antithesis


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## BroKage (Jun 2, 2011)

He's still a primary main character and as such needs competitive battles and room for improvement.


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## Disaresta (Jun 2, 2011)

Kishi didnt know what he was doing and has proceeded to still not knowing what he's doing


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## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

WELCOME TO THE NARUVERSE! 


*shows room* 

Here is the living room this is where the people try to make sense of the storyline and overall layout of the feats and power levels *points at visibly upset man bashing his head against a piece of blank paper*

In this room we have kishi writing the new storyline *opens door to see Kishi very intoxicated throwing permanent marker at a giant blank wall and taking notes based off the shapes of the dots and position of the fallen marker* 

Over there are the plot holes *points at bottomless pit*


and here we have the husks of the facts from part one that were retconned and stretched until they inevitably gave way into confusion and made up feats *opens door to see Shodai, Minato, Itachi, and Madara mud wrestling* 


over there is whats left of the plot line of the original story *points at young naruto making out with young sauce* 


Over here is where we keep the old rules such as team work and taijutsu *points at lee crying in a corner* 

 we had to move them for the new Nuclear really powerful techniques *gestures at Sauce screaming like a maniac bleeding from the eyes with Optimus prime His susanoo shooting arrows everywhere*


And thats pretty much the layout of the place 


 im sorry i couldnt resist


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## Suigetsu (Jun 2, 2011)

he didnt know what to do with him and pushed him to a way of no coming back. He was also watching too much star wars. He wants sasuke to be like Anakin and stuff =/


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## Saunion (Jun 2, 2011)

More like Raikage was a huge irrational asshole when he wanted to kill Saucy, but now that he targets Naruto he's the character that makes the most sense in the world.


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## vagnard (Jun 2, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> No, killing Naruto is not the right choice because it would completely undermine the unity of the alliance right when it is undergoing enormous strain under Madara's sneak attack.



The alliance isn't there. Madara is the priority right now. All countries had to endure sacrifices in the past. Hizashi was sacrificed for Kumo's sake and nobody moved a finger. 



hcheng02 said:


> Also the difference between Naruto's situation now and the Uchiha Massacre is that Naruto just wants to help and if he's given the proper supervision and direction he can easily help the Alliance regain the initiative.



He isn't helping the alliance exposing himself to the danger. Only his main character plot inmunity will save his ass. From an in-story perspective Naruto's attitude is childish and arrogant given he believes he has the the right to make to decisions outside the authority of the Alliance. 

He already was given supervision and orders and he doesn't obey shit. Why Raikage should trust him?. 



hcheng02 said:


> Whereas the Uchiha was intentionally trying to screw over the village and *could not be convinced to do otherwise*, assuming that part of Madara's story is correct that is.



It doesn't make a difference. Uchihas weren't thinking: "Hahaha... we are the evil guys who want to destroy Konoha" They feel like victims and they also believed they would make a better Konoha (otherwise they just would move on from the village). 

Saint Naruto can't be convinced either. He already acted irrationally, attacked his guardians, escaped from his protection and he isn't listening the leader of the alliance. 

Hell the very reason because Bee and Naruto weren't used as weapons of war in first place as Tsuchikage wanted is because they act irrationally and never listen orders. 




hcheng02 said:


> The alliance will just lose a weapon which could help them defeat Madara.Let's say that by killing Naruto they stop Madara from completing his "eye plan".Do they have the means to kill him w/o Naruto?Wouldn't Madara kill them anyway?



How Madara can deal against the whole world without Naruto?. If Madara could conquer the world without the Eye of Moon Plan he already would done it. 

Naruto is essential to his plan. Zetsus clones can't be mantained forever. Madara already stated he had to use a big amount of chakra from the statue just to create them and he couldn't spare more. 



Sorin said:


> Uchiha were ploting against Konoha.Naruto wants to help them in the war.



Naruto is plotting against the alliance exposing himself to the enemy and disobeying direct orders from his leaders. Intentions mean shit. Uchiha also thought they were the best for Konoha.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jun 2, 2011)

Poo Bear said:


> How come Kishimoto made Sasuke declare he'd go to Konoha and destory it, and then gain the Mangekyou Sharingan, only to get into battles were he was fatally wounded and almost killed in the process against people who are technically supposed to be his hype battles with his evil new role.


1. To show sasuke's new powers.

2. To reveal his limitations (remember, he had just finished his HEBI run, which left him with orochimaru's powers AND Uchiha powers.)

3. To introduce Pivotal characters, with opposition strong enough to give them credability. If you can't stand the litmus test, you fail.
If you can't beat sasuke, madara is going to be all in your ass.



> *If he's supposed to be the chain of hatred *and much more pivitol to the main characters fate in being the light how come he almost dies against other characters like Bee or Mizukage.


Sasuke propetuates the chain of hatred's existence, but he is not the chain of hatred. It is a concept, not a person.

Imagine this.
I shoot you, your brother shoots me,mine shoots yours,and the vendetta goes down the whole family line. That is the chain of hatred. It is negative karma creating a never ending wave, or a butterfly effect in the lives of others.

Also, his character role does not influence his ability to fight as much as you thing. It is through his own efforts, so if he has reached a glass sealing, unless HE not his ideals, breaks through it, it will trap him. That ceiling is his arrogance.




> Isn't this pointless? if Sasuke doesn't stain his hands with blood or destroy a powerful figure of goodness like Pain vs. Jiraya, yet he either loses or ties in fights only for the characters to live and tell the tale allowing him to be reconized as a world wide criminal and in the process making more trouble for himself.


No, it isn't.
What is an uchiha's strongest attribute?
Adaptation. Has he honestly fought and NOT gotten stronger from it?
You are thinking in a juvenile fashion. Winning, loosing.
As long as you are in good health, the battle isn't over.
Success comes from attainment. As long as sasuke got something from a struggle, be it knowledge, experience, strength, or a reality check, he is always winning.
It is a mindset. A winner is always a winner, even if he fails, and a looser always looses in something.






> I find it funny, for all his transgressions against the world so far, he hasn't won a single fight or come out of a fight with little a scratch and instead humilates himself in front of Madara and the readers.And still he's the big evil next to Madara.


Think about this... What if he didn't have that pride?
What if he killed everyone you loved before he killed you?
What if he immersed himself in evil acts and nothing could change him?

Look at part one sasuke with all his hang ups and sense of morality.
Look at him now.
Not only is he stronger, but because of his mindset, FAR more dangerous.

And you think the good guys are winning?

Everything they do makes him more dangerous.

Winning fights.


----------



## MYJC (Jun 2, 2011)

Saunion said:


> More like Raikage was a huge irrational asshole when he wanted to kill Saucy, but now that he targets Naruto he's the character that makes the most sense in the world.



What does Sasuke have to do with anything? Sasuke is a missing ninja who's going around causing international incidents and attacking Kages. Konoha should've dealt with him a long time ago, and Raikage CERTAINLY had the right to kill him.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 2, 2011)

vagnard said:
			
		

> hcheng02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, Tobi is already acting on the plan thanks to Kin and Gin.


Second it's not just Tobi + Zetsus + Gedo Mazo against the Alliance.Even if we count out Kabuto (who won't be helping that much because he has his own plans) Tobi still has EMS Sascake.

Tsuchikage implied that EMS Tobi could've raped The Alliance and won't need to sneak around and shit.EMS Sascake probably won't be that far behind.


So how exactly does the Alliance stand a chance?SERIOUSLY?


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## Sorin (Jun 2, 2011)

vagnard said:


> Naruto is plotting against the alliance exposing himself to the enemy and disobeying direct orders from his leaders. Intentions mean shit. Uchiha also thought they were the best for Konoha.



Disobeying shit orders is still better than killing your most powerful weapon to delay a plan which is already in full effect.

How the hell can you compare the uchiha situation with this one?There are 2 very different situations.

And why didn't you respond to my first point?


----------



## Fiona (Jun 2, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> 1. To show sasuke's new powers.
> 
> 2. To reveal his limitations (remember, he had just finished his HEBI run, which left him with orochimaru's powers AND Uchiha powers.)
> 
> ...



Thats easily the best way ive seen it put


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## hcheng02 (Jun 2, 2011)

vagnard said:


> The alliance isn't there. Madara is the priority right now. All countries had to endure sacrifices in the past. Hizashi was sacrificed for Kumo's sake and nobody moved a finger.



Tsunade is there, and she's part of the Alliance who certainly doesn't agree with what Raikage is doing. Raikage "sacrificing" Naruto is less than meaningless, it will outright undermine his authority and toss the entire leadership into suspicion right when they are under attack. Raikage's actions will get everyone killed more surely than Naruto's actions will.



> He isn't helping the alliance exposing himself to the danger. Only his main character plot inmunity will save his ass. From an in-story perspective Naruto's attitude is childish and arrogant given he believes he has the the right to make to decisions outside the authority of the Alliance.
> 
> He already was given supervision and orders and he doesn't obey shit. Why Raikage should trust him?.



Raikage should at least hear Naruto out since Naruto does have powers and such that can help the Alliance out of their current situation - namely by potentially IDing Zetsus from actual Alliance members. 



> It doesn't make a difference. Uchihas weren't thinking: "Hahaha... we are the evil guys who want to destroy Konoha" They feel like victims and they also believed they would make a better Konoha (otherwise they just would move on from the village).



The Uchiha weren't thinking anything of the village, it was all about their clan's own petty self-interests. Naruto is trying to help others in spite of personal danger. Their motivations are nothing alike. 



> Saint Naruto can't be convinced either. He already acted irrationally, attacked his guardians, escaped from his protection and he isn't listening the leader of the alliance.
> 
> Hell the very reason because Bee and Naruto weren't used as weapons of war in first place as Tsuchikage wanted is because they act irrationally and never listen orders.



The leader of the alliance is a fucking idiot who frankly is barely a half step more emotionally mature than Naruto is. Tsunade and Oonoki both wanted to field the jinnchuurikis, and Tsunade is the one who better understands what Naruto is capable of. Conditions on the field  have changed and at this point if the Alliance doesn't use Naruto and Bee they'll all be slaughtered and their jinns will have to fight alone. I mean, Kabuto was already able to find them once when they were swimming around in the ocean. The longer they hide the less allies Naruto and Bee will have left. 



> How Madara can deal against the whole world without Naruto?. If Madara could conquer the world without the Eye of Moon Plan he already would done it.
> 
> Naruto is essential to his plan. Zetsus clones can't be mantained forever. Madara already stated he had to use a big amount of chakra from the statue just to create them and he couldn't spare more.



Madara is dealing against the entire world just fine. In case you haven't noticed, he just slaughtered half the world army and is continuing to maul their forces right now. And where has it been said that the Zetsu clones need constant chakra to maintain their forms? He spent alot of chakra to make them, and they are doing a fine job. Hell, he hasn't even sent the real heavy hitters yet - Sasuke, Gedo Mazo, himself, etc. 



> Naruto is plotting against the alliance exposing himself to the enemy and disobeying direct orders from his leaders. Intentions mean shit. Uchiha also thought they were the best for Konoha.



Wrong, the Uchiha were trying to destroy their village. Naruto is trying to save his.


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## Berserk (Jun 2, 2011)

Lose half your force in one-two days, expect to "protect" Naruto and Bee for much longer than that.

Sure is good plan in here.


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## Soul (Jun 2, 2011)

Naruto said:


> My guess is that if it was that simple, they would do it for every important ninja in the army.



I wouldn't say so.
As this are people fighting, they can still be killed by one attack, even if hey are great shinobis.

However, the Alliance knows that Naruto has to be captured alive + get his Bijuu extracted, so they have time to reverse-summon shit. Also, not every important shinobi can be reverse summoned so easily.



> Unmentioned-inconveniences-no-jutsu!



True that.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 2, 2011)

How would the alliance communicate that Naruto was in immediate danger to Ma and Pa quickly enough? Plus we've seen the Kuchiyose being countered with all of the sealed Edos.


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## blackbird (Jun 2, 2011)

Could be White Zetsu under Frog Mountain.


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## SO6PRINNENGAN (Jun 2, 2011)

well i think bee just convinced raikage with that fist bump ;D


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## tori22 (Jun 3, 2011)

It's because their opposites. But it was also for character development I guess I mean Sasuke needed to do something else and it actually turned out really good. I like his desire to destroy konoha it's very dramatic I don't see why anyone's complaining


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## Dattebayo-chan (Jun 4, 2011)

I don't think Naruto is acting like a douche. He is cocky, but I wouldn't call him arrogant. Kyuubi was trying was manipulate Naruto. Naruto actually kept his cool and saw through it instead of taking the bait. 

Also, don't forget this page: 
_This_

As for rushing to the battlefield, I won't say it's wrong or right. However, the Alliance is facing serious trouble, and if they would all be killed, no one could protect Naruto and Madara would get to him and Bee anyway. The way I see it, many people will die no matter what you do. Naruto's actions are understandable though. It would be hard to sit by while people you care about are dying for you.


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## Kiss (Jun 4, 2011)

That's nothing new.


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## FmDante (Jun 4, 2011)

I think losing half of the army in one day pretty much tells how much the alliance is screwed with their plan, not to mention, how much will they lose with zetsu infiltration tactics. I think the kages are stubborn and arrogant for not seeing that they are losing men and losing time to come up with another plan.

Plus, Kabuto and Madara have multiple aces up their sleeves and what about the alliance? Naruto and Bee, and they are kept in suspense. Why not come up with a plan that involves those two, it would make more sense and the alliance would have a chance.

Who cares that Naruto will screw things up for everyone, if he wont do anything, the alliance will lose for sure. It's A that cant think, he can only act with muscle.


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## shyakugaun (Jun 4, 2011)

0Fear said:


> You make him sound like John Cena.



exactly, except Naruto loses from time to time


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## tnorbo (Jun 4, 2011)

*what was madara thinking*

I just realized, while reading a thread asking whether itachi had caught a bijuu, that madara was an idiot.

why the hell would he send itachi after the ninetails when he new itachi was loyal to konoha. If he had assigned him to any other bijuu he could have benefitted from itachi's power, but this retard sent him after konoha's only bijuu really how dumb can you be.


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## KyuubiFan (Jun 4, 2011)

First of all, the Fox has fans too. And they do not like the fact that he had been degraded from the feared beast of Part 1 into the laughing stock of everyone and is about to get brainwashed/transformed into a puppy of sunshine, happiness, lurve, peace and rainbows. Buy me a ticket to Pukesville.

Two, whether the point was to make his host feel doubt or not, he had a point and all that little idiot said in reply was basically "STFU I'll manage... somehow... since I am Teh Foretold Savior of the Wurld!!!1!!1!!!!!111!". If that's how he is going to do every reasoning he has to do, some world peace there will be. "Belive in me or get a Rasengan in yo face, muthafucka!"

Three, I'm pretty sure Naruto is arrogant and worst of all, he can afford it to be. Never ever did any of his decisions had consequences that slapped him in his face, and he feels like he can do anything he wants because he is strong. I hope the Raikage smashes his oversized ego like a desk.


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## ソラのシン-사마 (Jun 4, 2011)

So by wanting to save his friends he's a douche?

First he's a pussy, now he's a douche, will people EVER stop bitching? Grow the fuck up.


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## navy (Jun 4, 2011)

Naruto, nomatter what they hate.

Its better then hyperventilating or sitting in a damn cave.


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## -ScRaTcH- (Jun 4, 2011)

Itachi's team already captured anotehr bijuu, he already benefited from Itachi


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 4, 2011)

KyuubiFan said:


> First of all, the Fox has fans too. And they do not like the fact that he had been degraded from the feared beast of Part 1 into the laughing stock of everyone and is about to get brainwashed/transformed into a puppy of sunshine, happiness, lurve, peace and rainbows. Buy me a ticket to Pukesville.
> 
> Two, whether the point was to make his host feel doubt or not, he had a point and all that little idiot said in reply was basically "STFU I'll manage... somehow... since I am Teh Foretold Savior of the Wurld!!!1!!1!!!!!111!". If that's how he is going to do every reasoning he has to do, some world peace there will be. "Belive in me or get a Rasengan in yo face, muthafucka!"
> 
> Three, I'm pretty sure Naruto is arrogant and worst of all, he can afford it to be. Never ever did any of his decisions had consequences that slapped him in his face, and he feels like he can do anything he wants because he is strong. I hope the Raikage smashes his oversized ego like a desk.



so does that mean hachibi was degraded too? and yet no one bitches at bee for it, even the hachibi is still badass for the change 

had a point? the arrogant, brainwashing dipstick attempted to subdue naruto yet again (like always) to make him doubt himself that he could do anything to save others and stop madara from pwning the joint army. quit making excuses for the kyyubi just because your his fan. I'd tell the bitch off myself if he wouldn't shut his big mouth up about "U CAN'T SAVE ANYON, UR A FAILURE, BAWW" bullshit. not like the raikage's decsion will lead to world peace now, eh?

duh, he's been like that since part 1 and had managed to progress through it. other shonen characters are arrogant and idiots but manage to achieve what they want and move the plot forward. yeah well don't get your hopes it


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## Black☆Star (Jun 4, 2011)

Maybe Pain sent him ?


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## tnorbo (Jun 4, 2011)

@scratch but still if he had assigned him another bijuu, he could've got two out of kakashi.


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## Neptun (Jun 4, 2011)

that's probably the reason why he assigned Pain to capture Naruto, even before Itachi died


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## KyuubiFan (Jun 4, 2011)

Asakuna no Sasori said:


> so does that mean hachibi was degraded too? and yet no one bitches at bee for it, even the hachibi is still badass for the change



Hachibi wasn't even mentioned in part 1, there was nothing he could have been degraded from. And yeah, Bee is badass. I like him.



Asakuna no Sasori said:


> had a point? the arrogant, brainwashing dipstick attempted to subdue naruto yet again (like always) to make him doubt himself that he could do anything to save others and stop madara from pwning the joint army. quit making excuses for the kyyubi just because your his fan. no shit its gonna happen, you expect the main character to fail at his own goals?



He still had a point: what did he ever do to help his "friend"? Nothing at all. I can't really see him stopping Madara anyway. His teleportation/invincibility combo + Sharingan is already too much for most of the army and now he has the Rin'negan even fewer people can even think about fighting him at all, much less on equal terms. Naruto certainly can't (yet), not in this state.

No, I won't stop. If his fans won't speak in defence of him, who will? It's a Don Quixothe-ish fight, but better than being quiet.

Nah, I don't expect him to fail. Still, to see him success with no plan at all is disgustingly stupid.



Asakuna no Sasori said:


> duh, he's been like that since part 1 and had managed to progress through it. other shonen characters are arrogant and idiots but manage to achieve what they want and move the plot forward. yeah well don't get your hopes it



Other shonen characters are arrogant and idiots, yes, but not to this point.


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## -ScRaTcH- (Jun 4, 2011)

tnorbo said:


> @scratch but still if he had assigned him another bijuu, he could've got two out of kakashi.



Ye he was probably due to capture Killer Bee. But he died.


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## tnorbo (Jun 4, 2011)

Neptun said:


> that's probably the reason why he assigned Pain to capture Naruto, even before Itachi died



good point


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## SO6PRINNENGAN (Jun 4, 2011)

maybe madara didnt think it was the right time to capture him it might have been just for intel on the village


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## Dejablue (Jun 4, 2011)

> Bee v A




Thus Kishimoto's idea of 'ninja' became just as bad if not WORSE than Stephanie Myers idea of 'vampire'


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## Yami_no_Princess (Jun 4, 2011)

At that point Pain was still giving the orders as the akatsuki leader so it's really "what was pain thinking?" but how could he know Itachi was loyal to konoha?


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 4, 2011)

so your ignoring the chapter flashback where the hachibi was wrangled down by fodders and getting his horn snapped off by the raikage? bigger screentime doesn't change jack, its still the same difference

well he stopped him from targeting konoha first and got him to take his hatred out on naruto amirite? :ho

and yet konan was able to blow off his right arm and upper mask with paper bombs which forced him to use izanagi? or when torune was able to an-toxicate his same right arm to the point where he had to rip it off? OR when minato wtf pwnd madara with jusr hiraishin and rasengan? oh i can't see nrdo beating madara, NUH UHHHHHH!!!!


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## Aeiou (Jun 4, 2011)

Madara is far from idiocy. He said himself he knew Itachi very well. He knew Itachi was always looking out for his brother and probably suspected that sending him to Konoha would result in Itachi intimidating the elders to leave Sasuke alone. Thus, Sasuke will still be left out of harm until the time comes when he faces Itachi and "wins". 

That way Madara didn't have to worry about factors involving the elders messing with Sasuke.


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## Ptolemy (Jun 4, 2011)

Kishi may not have thought of Madara yet, or have decided on Itachi's loyalties at that point. The official explanation was that Itachi traveled to Konoha due to his own motives; to scare the elders, remind Danzou about his existence and leak information. 

Or Madara could do an Aizen and have it all part of his plan to deceive us.


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## KyuubiFan (Jun 4, 2011)

That's the Motherfuckin' Raikage!  And paneltime does matter, at least in this case. Dunno if they were fodders or not, doesn't really matter.

Yeah, at their last meeting. Good for him I guess. But that lead to psycho!Sauce getting EMS and I'm pretty interested in that so I won't complain.

I said there are _few_ who can face him, not none. And all those were before he got the Rin'negan. Does Naruto have 600 billion explosive tags prepared? Does he have the nano-bugs? Hiraishin? Nope. His current abilities are simply insufficient to fight Madara.

Seriously, how do you imagine the fight with Madara - that is, _if_ he's gonna fight him.


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## Dejablue (Jun 4, 2011)

there is no point in wondering what Hachibi used to be like.  That is forever a mystery.  Well ok obviously not a mystery.  But there isn't much point in wondering about it too much. Flashbacks aside, the first time you see Hachibi he is a good guy.

All I want is for Naruto to have a plan.  Charging in like a raging bull is probably not the best idea.  He's supposed to be a ninja right?  Don't ninja usually use cunning?  Naruto used to be incredibly cunning before he got all of those free prophecy power ups. Which, to me, has made him a less interesting character.


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 4, 2011)

KyuubiFan said:


> That's the Motherfuckin' Raikage!  And paneltime does matter, at least in this case. Dunno if they were fodders or not, doesn't really matter.
> 
> Yeah, at their last meeting. Good for him I guess. But that lead to psycho!Sauce getting EMS and I'm pretty interested in that so I won't complain.
> 
> ...



.....ok yeah i'll agree with you on d'at  

i do wonder what his EMS would look like though, but it doesn't really make a difference on if its bad or not since EMS just gives you infinite sight, thats it 

don't ask me, im not the one who writes 541 chapters of a weekley based manga from japan


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## Agony (Jun 4, 2011)

wad naruto is doing now,makes the manga better i believe.so stop complaining.


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## Destiny1027 (Jun 4, 2011)

I don't think Naruto has been acting like a douche but he certainly has been drifting down the rank of my favorite characters, it seems the reason why I liked him so much is gone... but he'll always be a great character though. I just hope Kishi remembers* teamwork *is the only way to get things done I don't want to see Naruto doing everything alone...


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## GangWarlord (Jun 4, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Personally I disagree with some of things he is doing but I do not think is acting like a douche. Reckless, idiotic and impulsive are more words is the way Naruto is acting.



Pretty much this.
He's not a bad person, he's just pretty dumb.


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## HolyHands (Jun 4, 2011)

Both sides are better described as being pointlessly uncompromising rather than being douches. Here, I'll sum up the past chapter for you.

Alliance: I know what's best for you!
Naruto: No, I know what's best for YOU!
Alliance: No, I know what's best for YOU!
Naruto: No, I know what's best for YOU!
...
...
...

Neither side is really wrong, but I wish that they would stop their childish yelling and actually discuss things. These people are supposed to be ninja, not children.


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## Gabe (Jun 4, 2011)

they kyuubi was trying to make naruto doubt himself and let it take over him. and he did not degrade the kyuubi it was already made to look like that remember madara, shodai, mito, kushina, sasuke  made it their bitch naruto just did the same. kyuubi fans seem to forget that. also naruto is the main character everything he does will end up right no matter what other think that is not gonna change naruto will be right in the end. they raikage will let him pass. he does not doing this for recognition he does it to save his friends and protect the world. he is not being a douche he is being selfless a good friend. he saved the entire village already and no one shows him respect All the kages should thank naruto for changing nagato if he had not the world would have been over way before the war started.


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## alchemy1234 (Jun 4, 2011)

King of the Internet said:


> Oh lighten up!
> 
> It's still *just a manga*



 you have some nerve to say that.


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## nadinkrah (Jun 4, 2011)

ソラのシン-사마 said:


> So by wanting to save his friends he's a douche?
> 
> First he's a pussy, now he's a douche, will people EVER stop bitching? Grow the fuck up.



he can't save everyone.


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## SaVaGe609 (Jun 4, 2011)

Brad Pitt=Naruto


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## Tengu (Jun 4, 2011)

He doesn't want his friends to die for his sake, which is cool, but on the other hand he is putting the entire world at risk, the odds are against him to be honest, but we'll just have to wait and see.


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## Dejablue (Jun 4, 2011)

Destiny1027 said:


> I don't think Naruto has been acting like a douche but he certainly has been drifting down the rank of my favorite characters, it seems the reason why I liked him so much is gone... but he'll always be a great character though. I just hope Kishi remembers* teamwork *is the only way to get things done I don't want to see Naruto doing everything alone...



Teamwork is kind of useless when a hand ful of people have God-like powers.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 4, 2011)

Dejablue said:


> Teamwork is kind of useless when a hand ful of people have God-like powers.



You didn't see Naruto controlling/surpassing the Kyuubi from the beginning?

Then again, we have a Bee/Naruto team at the moment, Tsunade/A, etc...

I really don't see a lack of teamwork at the moment


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## WraithX959 (Jun 4, 2011)

I find it funny that people are calling Naruto a douche, when it was Raikage who cut Naruto off while he was trying to explain himself.


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## Silenius (Jun 4, 2011)

Since I don't simply want to copy paste my reply from the other thread like this one, I'll just post a link:



To give a summary for those who don't follow the link, the difference here is not about what "Right vs. Wrong", but more of an argument between "Logical vs. Heroic" as defined by Japanese culture. This sort of action by the protagonist is prevalent in nearly all Shonen manga, because it's the sort of thing heroic archetypes in traditional Japanese culture are expected to do. To sit out of the fight when you can single-handedly turn the tide of battle and likely prevent a lot of deaths would be considered cowardly, even dishonorable. True, 'honor' shouldn't mean a thing to a character who is _supposed_ to be a _ninja_, but we all know that at this point Kishimoto's shinobi are ninja "In Name Only".


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## izzyisozaki (Jun 4, 2011)

Naruto will always be wrong according to those who don't think he knows what he's doing.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 4, 2011)

Destiny1027 said:


> I don't think Naruto has been acting like a douche but he certainly has been drifting down the rank of my favorite characters, it seems the reason why I liked him so much is gone... but he'll always be a great character though. I just hope Kishi remembers* teamwork *is the only way to get things done I don't want to see Naruto doing everything alone...



Teamwork has never been vastly important Take Kakashi's first fight with Zabuza where he said the best Teamwork was staying out of the way same situation now the best Teamwork the alliance can offer is staying out of the way we have seen where teamwork has gotten Kakashi in the past when he was busy protecting Ino and Chouji when facing Kakuzu


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 4, 2011)

In real life Danzo would now be leading this army


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## Addy (Jun 4, 2011)

poor kyuubi 

don't worry, i think crow itachi is gonna set kyuubi free


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## KyuubiFan (Jun 4, 2011)

That would be great - but pretty much pointless right now, sadly  Nah, he should be freed after Madara/Sauce has been dealt with and before he gets brainwashed. Then it would be perfect!


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## Addy (Jun 4, 2011)

KyuubiFan said:


> That would be great - but pretty much pointless right now, sadly  Nah, he should be freed after Madara/Sauce has been dealt with and before he gets brainwashed. Then it would be perfect!



i can still hope that kyuubi gushes through naruto's stomach and rains all hail and anger on madara and the world.


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## KyuubiFan (Jun 4, 2011)

Yeeees. Just look at my sig!


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## Hexa (Jun 4, 2011)

Plus, the Kyuubi couldn't possibly focus on Naruto, with Naruto so close to his cornea.  He just made himself blurry.


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 4, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> I find it funny that people are calling Naruto a douche, when it was Raikage who cut Naruto off while he was trying to explain himself.



*sigh* its always excuses with the bashers


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## lynxie (Jun 4, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Yeah. And before anyone says anything, I like Naruto as a character.
> 
> But be for real. Naruto, because of his messiah complex or whatever, thinks he somehow has the right to go against the orders of not only his superior (Tsunade) but against the wishes of the whole ninja world?! Naruto is an inexperienced teenage ninja, but yet he seems to think he somehow has a better idea of what's best of the world than the five Kages? Just because of some stupid prophecy?
> 
> ...



He is given the power to be able to defeat Madara by his own dad.

His dad and also Jiraiya believe in the prophecy. 
They believe Naruto can do it. Naruto can't hide or give up, he needs to stand strong.

Naruto's actions are created with these things in his mind. The people he respects the most believe in him, he can't fail them.

Hero's are hero's because they do the impossible. They go against all odds.

Also Raikage isn't a bad person, he just has his own views, and while I don't agree with him, I can understand him. 
I don't like to speak of right and wrong, for me it is just different views, some views I agree more to then other views.

Well that is just the way I see it, but keep in mind I say this with the Naruto (fantasy!) world in mind, and not the real world.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 4, 2011)

Yeah OP, well, so has Raikage. You tell me, who's the bigger douche....Naruto, or Raikage?



My personal opinion....Naruto's not acting like a douche. Stubborn, reckless, and headstrong yeah......but if you think he's a douche then you might have a case of hatred going on.


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## Dejablue (Jun 4, 2011)

Its not teamwork when Tsunade is standing in the background uselessly yelling at Raikage to stop.


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## Raiden (Jun 4, 2011)

Well he isn't Jesus, so he will always have some sort of character flaw.

Criticizing his hardheaded approach to the Raikage is understandable, but the Kyuubi? It's the embodiment of malice and would kill him if it had the chance. I don't see why he should be nice to it.


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## Raiden (Jun 4, 2011)

Agreed. I understand his frustration (I'd probably do the same thing), but remaining in hiding obviously did prevent Madara from using the big guns.

Exposing himself compromises both his life and the lives of his fellow shinobi. 

It also looks like the Zetsu are more of a problem than the Edo Tensei themselves, and I'm sure Naruto would target the Edo Tensei first. The active ones are mostly interlocked with important alliance characters, meaning that it's really the Zetsu that are doing the most damange. So, while a respectable and dangerous bunch of zombies are fighting agains the allinace, it's not their biggest problem.


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## Miraculum (Jun 4, 2011)

Now that Pein Nagto and Itachi has been reviveed I want to see them in action instead of just loitering around. And where the hell is Sasuke???  When is he gonna join the battle??


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 5, 2011)

Dejablue said:


> Its not teamwork when Tsunade is standing in the background uselessly yelling at Raikage to stop.



How is that Naruto's fault?


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## Zarzamora-no-kimi (Jun 5, 2011)

I think that people doesn't even know how Kishimoto will approach the battle and they are already jumping to conclusions. It's almost like self deception; we really we don't know. 

Haters claim he should be obeying orders and that he going there will just jeopardize the plans and strategies and all that, but really, how do you expect the war will go on if Naruto and Bee stay there...what can you really expect will happen next?

The most obvious one (and Kishi has made some pretty clear emphasis on it) is that The Alliance is biting the dust right now, and worse, they don't even know the extent of it, now that Zetsus are taking over the camps the situation will grow to be even worse. So really, what strategies? The Zetsu were made to fight for the sake of the game, Madara pretty much doesn't care how things go over the battlefield. It's like fodders against fodders. With some fanservice thrown over here and there.

And then? What. Else. Could. Happen? Do you really think that Shikaku's on coming plan will work 100%? This is not just physical battle, but a battle of the minds. There will always be people that will get scared, and start to distrust everyone because there is no way of knowing which person is the real one and which one is a fake. This is not just about battle, but about strength of character, cleverness, planning, cunning that not all people will have. Shikaku will not be able to monitor all of them.

So what else? How do you expect to advance the plot without it ending in the anticlimatic "they all ended up dead"?

Kishimoto HAS to take Naruto out, and that's the end of it. Whether you want to delude yourself for you own peace of mind it's not even relevant.

And remember people there is a difference between confidence and arrogance, arrogant people think themselves above others (while practically stomping on them and insulting them) arrogant people think themselves superior without even being superior and they always try to emphasize that while putting every one down, like self-aggrandizement. Naruto may think himself powerful but he IS powerful, and not in my life have I ever seen Naruto insulting anybody of telling them they are inferior. He is a hot head and stubborn and a punk and maybe even whiny but he is not a douche.


----------



## ashher (Jun 5, 2011)

Masato said:


> Somone had to say it.
> 
> The way he treats the Kyuubi. He just used violence instead of trying to reason with it. What Basically happened was that the Kyuubi came with a perfectly good arguement and Naruto couldn't counter it so he resorted to violence then to further humiliate the fox he stepped on it. That is not self confidense but *ARROGANCE*. This is even worst than Vegeta.
> 
> ...



glorify?not really. Rather the author has been trying to show two sides of the arguement, and he's doing quite brilliantly, seeing how his readers are getting divided on this. At the end of the day naruto is doing what feels right from his pov. Since he is honest about it, he is respect worthy...whether he is correct or not.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jun 5, 2011)

Raiden said:


> Agreed. I understand his frustration (I'd probably do the same thing), but remaining in hiding obviously did prevent Madara from using the big guns.
> 
> Exposing himself compromises both his life and the lives of his fellow shinobi.
> 
> It also looks like the Zetsu are more of a problem than the Edo Tensei themselves, and I'm sure Naruto would target the Edo Tensei first. The active ones are mostly interlocked with important alliance characters, meaning that it's really the Zetsu that are doing the most damange. So, while a respectable and dangerous bunch of zombies are fighting agains the allinace, it's not their biggest problem.



Nah dude. If it weren't for the Edo's taking the attention of the best people of the army then they could have mopped up the Zetsu's soooo much easier, especially if we're using the theoretical situation where Kabuto didn't boost the power of the Zetsu's. Unless Madara's original plan was drastically different before Kabuto came to him, he was gonna be hosed.


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## Hero of Shadows (Jun 5, 2011)

It's not that he uses violence against the kyubi wich ticks me off,it's that after the threats beatings and stealing of his chackra kyubi will be "purified" aka mindrape.


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## Summers (Jun 5, 2011)

Hero of Shadows said:


> It's not that he uses violence against the kyubi wich ticks me off,it's that after the threats beatings and stealing of his chackra kyubi will be "purified" aka mindrape.



you got a problem with mindrape? take it up with the Uchiha LOL.


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## son_michael (Jun 5, 2011)

Nauto has the power. He is Justice. Tsunade understands this but she is under pressure from the other villages. No matter, whether Naruto has to humiliate the Raikage or simply outwit him and get past him....it will all be as was destined.

Naruto, the next God of the Ninja world. The man who will save everybody from hatred and despair. Raikage will convert soon enough.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 I know I'm sounding like a narutard here but he really will become everyones savior. You all know it's true. His superiors clearly aren't enlightened like he is, that is what the story is telling us. Naruto has not done anything wrong, according to the story...he is maturing into the next savior and thus his decisions are not understood by those that do not have faith in him, yet they are the correct ones as portrayed by kishimotto.


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## Brickhunt (Jun 5, 2011)

He's acting selfish in a way, his intentions are good and selfishness is pretty much a healthy very human trait when correctly managed, but this is a case that he's getting the profecy all over his head and doesn't even bother to know what kind of war is that, he is just going to fight without a plan or strategy. I will pissed if he doesn't get a reality check by his own actions harming his friends.

The alliance is getting too much shit for losing half his army when they did the same to the zetsu army (which contrary to what people are saying, are not easily replaceable since Madara needs to conserve tailed beast chakra) and they know exactly what's happening there and Shikaku is already working on plan for it. It seems or most people the only solution to dozens of zetsu spies is sending two fighters to the battlefield.

I hate the argument that because Bee and Naruto are their strongest fighters they should be sent to the battlefield. It's doesn't fucking matter if any of them can shoot a giant black beam of death. Edo tensei Zombies cannot be killed by superior fire power at all and can only be sealed. If Kabuto is smart, he reverse summons all his edo tensei zombies to zerg rush Naruto and Bee. Naruto is throwing himself at a battle he doesn't even know how it works without a plan at all.


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## wibisana (Jun 5, 2011)

Madara is just playing with Itachi. well he basically petting a Tiger that looks like obey him but actually not.
and Madara knew that but still he pet Itachi


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## SmarterThanYou (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't think they put much money on Itachi capturing him.  Like other people said, Pain was already trying to get him before Itachi died.  Also,
wasn't it that Itachi wanted to warn Danzo that he was still around so he wouldn't mess with Sasuke?


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## Addy (Jun 5, 2011)

actually, madara did not send itachi. according to madara "itachi came to the village after the third hokage's death to remind the elders that he is alive".

in other words, itachi went by his own choice.


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## Neptun (Jun 5, 2011)

Addy said:


> actually, madara did not send itachi. according to madara "itachi came to the village after the third hokage's death to remind the elders that he is alive".
> 
> in other words, itachi went by his own choice.


that may be true, but Itachi is still assigned for Naruto in Part 2.


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## sinjin long (Jun 5, 2011)

Neptun said:


> that may be true, but Itachi is still assigned for Naruto in Part 2.



yes but remember,they have to save kyuubi for last,so it still works out okay.


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## King of the Internet (Jun 5, 2011)

Who says Pain or Madara even sent him after the Kyuubi in the first place? 


Itachi wasn't even there for Naruto, he just wanted people to know he was still alive after the 3rd died.


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## blacksword (Jun 5, 2011)

Madara never sent Itachi after kyuibi. It was Itachi' own decision.


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## T-Bag (Jun 5, 2011)

Like many have said, Itachi went there on his own accord. Sure he was assigned to capture the kyuubi at some point, but in that particular scenario he chose to go himself.

Kisame had no idea though.


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## King of the Internet (Jun 5, 2011)

OR

The deal Madara and Itachi made ensured that Konoha would not be harmed. Madara had no choice to let someone other than Itachi go there.


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## nightmaremage99 (Jun 5, 2011)

...

Or Kishi didn't know what he wanted to do with Itachi and initially chose to make him a bad guy in P1 and then changed his mind at the start of P2.


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## son_michael (Jun 5, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> He's acting selfish in a way, his intentions are good and selfishness is pretty much a healthy very human trait when correctly managed, but this is a case that he's getting the profecy all over his head and doesn't even bother to know what kind of war is that, he is just going to fight without a plan or strategy. I will pissed if he doesn't get a reality check by his own actions harming his friends.
> 
> The alliance is getting too much shit for losing half his army when they did the same to the zetsu army (which contrary to what people are saying, are not easily replaceable since Madara needs to conserve tailed beast chakra) and they know exactly what's happening there and Shikaku is already working on plan for it. It seems or most people the only solution to dozens of zetsu spies is sending two fighters to the battlefield.
> 
> I hate the argument that because Bee and Naruto are their strongest fighters they should be sent to the battlefield. It's doesn't fucking matter if any of them can shoot a giant black beam of death. Edo tensei Zombies cannot be killed by superior fire power at all and can only be sealed. If Kabuto is smart, he reverse summons all his edo tensei zombies to zerg rush Naruto and Bee. Naruto is throwing himself at a battle he doesn't even know how it works without a plan at all.



You may hate the argument but its the correct one. Naruto and bee will turn the war around. The zetsu's are mass produced fodder, it doesn't matter if they die. With Gedo Mazou and Edo tensei's the alliance is overpowered, and the zetsu pawns are secretely killing all the medics. If things continue as they are, the alliance will be obliterated. Naruto is gonna go in there, sense the zetsu's, kick the edo's asses and go up against Gedou Mazou.

Just because its risky does not mean its foolish. If Naruto and bee just hid on the island, Madara would wipe out the army and then find them anyway. It makes no logical sense not to use them. In a game of chess, you do not hide your queens in a corner.


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## Briella (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree, but... Is it me, or lately everyone thinks _all_ the characters are douches? 
Give it a rest... Bashing ficitonal characters... :sweat


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## Raiden (Jun 5, 2011)

I think that was precisely the reason.

He assigned Itachi the Nine tails because he needed it last. Thus, capturing it wasn't an immediate concern. He  could stall playing all his cards by seemingly giving Itachi something to do, as if he actually was committed to Akatsuki.


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## Hexa (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't think Madara intended for the Kyuubi to be captured until he sent Pain.  There was some murmurings that it was now "time" when he sent out Pain.

So assigning the Kyuubi to Itachi isn't an issue.


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## Soul (Jun 5, 2011)

Strategos said:


> How would the alliance communicate that Naruto was in immediate danger to Ma and Pa quickly enough?



The Alliance has trackers; that's more than enough.



> Plus we've seen the Kuchiyose being countered with all of the sealed Edos.



They would need to trap Naruto, which is far from easy.
Especially with support, and with Naruto fighting in long range via FRS.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 5, 2011)

Yeah, and A saying he'll kill Naruto _but not his brother_, if he doesn't get what he wants, it's like that at all...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Svwm_k9hYk&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Lacie (Jun 6, 2011)

And heere we go again for another round of flashbacks where Kishi tries hard to make you pity and feel sorry and compassionate and attach to Raikage and Bee, preparing for the TnJ yet again (and it has to be another bromance). And I was all hyped up for this chapter, too. Way to go, Kishi.


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## aretes (Jun 6, 2011)

*I dont know about u but.......*

If Bee comments suicide for Naruto's sake im going say fuck this stupid ass manga and this shitty anime.  why the hell would the strongest character go and kill himself. 
im sick and tired of the whole world thinking black people are some type of fucking sacrifice.  its down right crazy.  just like that stupid ass fail movie legion the only black people people in the movie died the same way.  self sacrificing themselves to save white folks now its time to self sacrifice to save a blonde japanese kid wtf is wrong with the world.  

no way in hell im sacrificing my self for anyone.


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## Neptun (Jun 6, 2011)

aretes said:


> If Bee comments suicide for Naruto's sake im going say fuck this stupid ass manga and this shitty anime.  why the hell would the strongest character go and kill himself.


ask Kisame


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## tori22 (Jun 6, 2011)

lol Ight, gonna try this again without "shouting".

So I'm kind of confused as to how you guys think Bee is going to kill himself. May you please answer my question. Thank you.

-Tori22


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## C-Moon (Jun 6, 2011)

Lacie said:


> And heere we go again for another round of flashbacks where Kishi tries hard to make you pity and feel sorry and compassionate and attach to Raikage and Bee, preparing for the TnJ yet again (and it has to be another bromance). And I was all hyped up for this chapter, too. Way to go, Kishi.



Most readers were already attached to Bee and Raikage


Giving Sasuke the John Bradshaw Layfield treatment will do that for you


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## xArunOwnsz (Jun 7, 2011)

Sometimes when Im reading the manga, the amount of little things pile up and confuse me. Such as a panel of a character slightly changing his position. Not explained very well but I know what I mean. 

Im not a fan of the whole story build up in Shippuden. There's just too great of a power difference between the main characters aside from others which do kill of the climax of any less minor battle. The plot moves forward too damn slow aswell, I feel like I've wasted the time it took me to read a chapter occasionally when it's all just a conversation. (Kyuubi + Naruto)

Im dont actually care about Naruto's ambition to be Hokage anymore, I'd rather just see the final result of the forecoming battle and the death of Naruto/Sasuke/Both.


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## Bringer (Jun 8, 2011)

*why do people think sakura sasuke and naruto will be sannin*

people think because sannin train them they will have there status

sannin means legendary trio if anything ino shikamaru and chogi should become the next sannin


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## Briella (Jun 8, 2011)

But why Ino, Shika and Choji?


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 8, 2011)

Because they spent most of their lives (3 years approximately) training under them and improved in some ways (others more like Sasuke) thanks to them. I don't think someone like Hanzou will give them that title, but the idea of it is subtle and direct, it has been that way since the end of Part I.

Things might've change now since the introduction of Rikudou Sennin and his legacy though.


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## nadinkrah (Jun 8, 2011)

I remember thinking that back in the old days. They don't deserve it


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## Oturan (Jun 8, 2011)

once Naruto kills Sasuke and madara, he'll be a legandary hero. :33

to me.


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## Noctivagus (Jun 8, 2011)

Because it's been hinted at in official art for years, not to mention how they were mentored by each of the sannin and adopted their special summons and techniques. And besides that, the kids have their own incredible skills that no one else in their generation can begin to match, and they're all from the same team. Hence, legendary trio.


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## The Potential (Jun 8, 2011)

Well, I suppose it's not really the case anymore..


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## navy (Jun 8, 2011)

Sasuke upgraded from snakes to hawks so he ruined it. (not to mention he went batshit crazy and sakura isnt anywhere near those two.)


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## SaVaGe609 (Jun 8, 2011)

Shikamaru ad Ino? Not likely. But Chogi...Chogi will become the god damn SOT6P.


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## Prototype (Jun 8, 2011)

At the end of Part 1, I would've agreed that it looks like Team 7 is taking on such an image. However, things have changed much since then.

-Naruto bears the image of Rikudō Sennin.
-Sasuke has dropped snake summons.
-Sakura hasn't been shown to summon slugs.

More parallels can be drawn to Rikudō's legacy.


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## N120 (Jun 8, 2011)

Most of the threads from part-one(pre-skip) were discussing how minato/itachi were the final benhcmarks for naru/sasu, not the neo-sanin. Naru/sasu also made it clear that their ambitions and hunger for power, aswell as their fighting style made teamwork irrelevant.

The neo-sanin idea was always only going to benefit sakuras lame character not naruto or sasuke. In fact such a theme would've destroyed these two power-houses by now, kishi would have had to hold them back and restrict their growth and effectiveess in battle simply to make sakura more relevant than she actually is./

not to mention how it would've been out of place and ruined the actual story. imagine a no-name ninja with no back story, no real ambition or relevance to the plot, or any meaningful connection to the duo or their struggles being a vital partner to fucking EMS sasuke and KRS Naruto in order to kill madara, pain/itachi and edo kabuto? ...fuck ooooff. nobody wants that shit.


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## EPIC (Jun 8, 2011)

*Naruto is the son of the Pimp, he's obviously going in his footsteps. Sasuke will just be bitchslapped (I have strong serious feeling about this, no lie!) and Sakura will remain a bitch.*


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## CandleGuy (Jun 8, 2011)

Sannin is not a rank.


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 8, 2011)

It's the only way Sakura can be of any relevance besides spreading her legs for Naruto or Sasuke. Naruto and Sasuke are well beyond the Sannins. Naruto is being groomed as Rikudo's true successor. So he won't be needing to leech off his teammates to get some fame. Sasuke is already infamous. The only one who would benefit from some sort "Neo Sannin" title is Sakura.

To be honest, Team 10 is more worthy of that moniker anyway.


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## Kujiro Anodite (Jun 9, 2011)

Lelouch71 said:


> It's the only way Sakura can be of any relevance besides spreading her legs for Naruto or Sasuke. Naruto and Sasuke are well beyond the Sannins. Naruto is being groomed as Rikudo's true successor. So he won't be needing to leech off his teammates to get some fame. Sasuke is already infamous. The only one who would benefit from some sort "Neo Sannin" title is Sakura.
> 
> *To be honest, Team 10 is more worthy of that moniker anyway.*



 

this..
but team 10 has *Ino-Shika-Cho* as their moniker soo..


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## keybledar43 (Jun 9, 2011)

The ARE the sannin...


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## conradoserpa (Jun 9, 2011)

They are above of it already. But I hope they get a nice title such as the sannin anyway


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## Taijukage (Jun 9, 2011)

Sakura is already relevant without being a Sannin or pairing fodder (we saw that when she ignored the emotional turmoil and took down a Zetsu while uncovering their whole plan). She is destined to become the strongest kunoichi medic nin. 

Naruto and Sasuke are already legendary warriors. What need do they have of another title? Sakura is the one who would gain fame from her abilities as a healer as Tsunade did. And her taijutsu/genjutsu are completely open to improvement. For a so called average ninja, her potential is massive. Besides as someone said, they lack the same summons and abilities. Naruto is more like Hashirama's and Minato's legacy. Sasuke is more like Madara's and Itachi's legacy.


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## Bitch (Jun 9, 2011)

The Sannin were recognized for their amazing teamwork.  Team 7 isn't.  The last time they worked together was during what... the Chuunin Exams?  And they didn't even fight together.  

Team 10 is much more worthy of the next Sannin title if there ever will be another one.


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## Kyu (Jun 9, 2011)

I agree team 10 would be more worthy of the neo-sannin title(to a degree sense they are nowhere nere the stength of the original sannin) but they already have the Ino-Shika-Cho name so they are out

In *Teamwork* though Team 10 are definetly one of the best though.


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## Barioth (Jun 9, 2011)

The Three Sanin were known due to surviving from Hanzo during the Second Shinobi War. I don't see them(Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke) as Sanin. They can be known as being student of the Sanin. In order for them to be next Sanin is like Madara is Hanzo sorta and Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke clash them but I doubt it. But if you look at a different angle in a sense they are the next Sanin as in 3rd Hokage students. But again I doubt it. The way the three Sanin were produce was very vague descriptive blame Kishimoto and Sanintard(If they do exist ).


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## G (Jun 9, 2011)

InoShikaCho defitenaly.


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## Gabe (Jun 9, 2011)

because they trained under the sannin plus naruto and sauske are already legends in their own way. naruto for beating pain and sasuke for his evil deeds. either way no one else will be sannin because hanzou is already dead. and he seems to like to name strong people


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## EJ (Jun 9, 2011)

Because the people who taught them everything they know were Sannin.

It's not like it's heavily implied that they will be, just the whole "Student passing teacher" deal.


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## Mane (Jun 9, 2011)

CandleGuy said:


> Sannin is not a rank.



This. Hanzo's dead and gone.


In terms of surpassing the Sannin, Naruto and Sasuke _arguably_ already have, and it has been hinted that Sakura will too in the future.

But wth is this about Ino, Shikamaru and Choji?


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## Yakkai (Jun 9, 2011)

Come on, with the absurd power inflation that is sapping my will to keep reading this manga, Naruto and Sasuke are already at or exceeding the Sannin's power levels, and they're only 16. Either one of them could take on and beat entire groups of jounins. If they don't qualify for sannin who does?

Sakura now... um... yeah. Kishi I think forgot that she was part of their group or something. Kishi really failed his primary heroine.


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## Yakkai (Jun 9, 2011)

Mane said:


> This. Hanzo's dead and gone.
> 
> 
> In terms of surpassing the Sannin, Naruto and Sasuke _arguably_ already have, and it has been hinted that Sakura will too in the future.
> ...



And you know something that always bothered me about this... its like Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash, at 16, taking over the Justice League because they're so much more powerful than the adult heroes. Its a little silly even by Manga standards.


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## Mane (Jun 9, 2011)

Yakkai said:


> And you know something that always bothered me about this... its like Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash, at 16, taking over the Justice League because they're so much more powerful than the adult heroes. Its a little silly even by Manga standards.



You know what, I completely agree. They are children, and yet are somehow surpassing their elders who have miles more experience and practice. The power balance has been thrown way off in Part 2 in general, its become a bit ridiculous.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 9, 2011)

Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura have always been compared to the Sannin. They sorta are the unofficial "Neo Sannin." Even Kakashi shares similarities with Hiruzen.



Yakkai said:


> And you know something that always bothered me  about this... its like Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash, at 16, taking  over the Justice League because they're so much more powerful than the  adult heroes. Its a little silly even by Manga standards.





Mane said:


> You know what, I completely agree. They are  children, and yet are somehow surpassing their elders who have miles  more experience and practice. The power balance has been thrown way off  in Part 2 in general, its become a bit ridiculous.



Wholly agreed. Although I sort of let it slide, despite how much it irritates me. At least they aren't 12-13 anymore.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't think either should the Legendary Sannin was a nickname nothing more or less it isn't a rank or official position 

Shikamaru, Ino and Chouji simply don't fit as well the Sannin on there own where all extremely powerfull ninja in there own right where you can't say the same for Shikamaru, Ino and Chouji that and they will be known as the next generation of the InoShikaCho formation a legendary formation in its own right


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 9, 2011)

its just a bunch of nonsense. sannin is a nickname given to oro, jiraya and tsunade by a dead guy, not a rank or official title.


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## Immortalis (Jun 9, 2011)

Team 7 - Neo-Sannin just like UD said. You just can't overlook the fact they were trained by Sannin of similar personalities to the members of team 7 (like Jiraiya - Naruto, for instance).

Team 10 - If Kishi is actually planning on passing ther sannin theme from generation to generation, InoShikaCho would deserve it the most. I mean, the reason why Hanzo gave team Hiruzen the title was because of the teamwork. InoShikaCho make the best three man cell in the manga in terms of teamwork, imo, not to mention Choji and Shikamaru are both accomplished shinobi. Ino not so much, but Kishi just makes the females look weak for the sake of it... which really annoys me but w/e

Edit: Yeah I agree with stockholm syndrome completely, nevertheless.


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## Daddy43205 (Jun 9, 2011)

the only person who cpould give them that status thats alive is either tsunade which i doubt or madara.


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## nightwolf613 (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't see how Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke will be the new legendary sannin.  They've each got their own path their following.  
Sakura is lagging behind but has the potential to be much more than she is if she can sever her feelings for Sasuke.  That's really what is holding her back.  It certainly causes more problems for her than it solves.  
Naruto is already a Sage and moving into an even greater role as the successor to RS.  Shikamaru's father said it himself, if Naruto's mastered sage jutsu then he's in a class all his own and the best teamwork they could offer him is to not get in the way.  If the Sannin were known for their teamwork then Naruto's already been excluded in that sense alone.  It doesn't matter that he is still a genin in village rank either, as mastering sage jutsu puts him far above any rank bestowed upon him in the village.
Sasuke chose to embrace his hatred and now his a monster.  Or at least I call him one.  I'm not even sure what his goal is these days.  It used to be Itachi and rebuilding his clan, now I don't know unless he is secretly planning to turn on Madara.  But if anything he inherited his blood legacy and has accepted it.  But he has let that hatred consume him now and is far removed from the person he used to be.

I think if Sakura ever dies, it won't be to an enemy she or her friends is fighting against.  It will be because she got between Naruto and Sasuke while they were fighting each other and deemed an accident.  Which would be tragic given their long history but there it is.


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## Shizukana (Jun 9, 2011)

Defenitely... they will be the new legendary brats who did a huge fuss in history.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Jun 9, 2011)

Because there are 3 of them and they are main characters..


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## Bane (Jun 9, 2011)

Noctivagus said:


> Because it's been hinted at in official art for years, not to mention how they were mentored by each of the sannin and adopted their special summons and techniques. And besides that, the kids have their own incredible skills that no one else in their generation can begin to match, and they're all from the same team. Hence, legendary trio.



We havent seen sakura summon a singe slug yet...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 9, 2011)

I honestly doubt such a title will ever come to Konoha ninja, or indeed any ninja again. Hanzo was one of the strongest ninja of his time during his reign. When Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru showed exceptional teamwork, to hold their own against him despite all other comrades falling to him in combat, they were awarded with such titles. Team 7 never worked well as a team, it was always their downfall. Even after Sasuke left Team 7, Naruto and Sakura don't work well either. Naruto rushes in with Kyuubi variants, while Sakura just waits for him to finish, before running in and healing him. Even ignoring that, Sasukes horrible crimes have made him internationally known as a criminal, he will never be treated with respect. Naruto may be known throughout the world as a hero, and perhaps at some point in time, Sakura - much like her master, will become known for her tremendous medical ninjutsu. Sasuke however, will always just be a criminal. 

Team 10, like others have said - have shown the best teamwork, they all equal each other in my honest opinion, and despite not necessarily having extremely OP techniques like Kirin, Bijuu transformations, Shinra Tensei etc. they took out huge amounts of exceptionally powerful enemies. On top of Kinkaku, Kakuzu and Asuma, they obviously took out many Zetsu clones as well, Shikamaru even coming close to killing Madara. They will not become Sannin, but they will probably get a reputation for themselves throughout the shinobi world.


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## Klue (Jun 9, 2011)

They won't be.

Each will make a name for themselves, with Naruto standing at the top, as Hokage.


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## Kujiro Anodite (Jun 9, 2011)

team 10 will remain as *INO-SHIKA-CHO*..
they have proven their worth.. 
not so strong individually
but combine them, they are almost hax
taking down note-worthy opponents.. even their zombified sensei..
they will eventually get a reputation good enough for the three 
of them to be known throughout the Shinobi world. like their dads..


as for the BIG 3..
I don't know.. I wish they can somehow reunite and fight a good fight..


----------



## kyla1718 (Jun 9, 2011)

*Seriously sick of woman being undermined by kishi*

I love the Naruto series, but it sucks that it does not have at least one woman who can have her moment.... Tsunade is Hokage and  a Sannin, and the (male) writers do not even show us why.... give her 2 freaking manga chapters of some new feats and show us what she can do... seriously they have made Raikage a God and he has just shown up which is annoying I really hate raikage.... Konan gets a moment but thats short lived seeing as she dies.... Sakura is nice and cute and annoying but sucks.... which leaves Tsunade..... and maybe Mai... seriously, Guren a stupid filler not even a real character kicked more ass than any of these women, but no surprise, it was only in the anime... LOL.... Dragon Ball Z has Android 18, now Naruto needs a woman who is a beast... Either they need to give Tsunade a moment with some secret jutsu or let someone else take the scene for a few chapters..... I am starting to feel like there is only a small glimmer of hope they will give Tsunade a moment..... I dont know why they are so sexist.... Its frankly annoying. Kishi really needs to appeal to all of his fans better.... One of the reasons I loved dragon ball z was because of android 18 being a strong independent fighter who could keep up with almost anyone and even near the end of the series she is still a formable powerful fighter....


----------



## Stunna (Jun 9, 2011)

Granted I didn't read that tl;dr of an opening, if you think Kishi is lacking in female equality you should check out Star Wars.

Now see, you went and got me subscribed to this thread with that mess.


----------



## kyla1718 (Jun 10, 2011)

Not going to happen...... Sasuke will be dead before he gets any real feats.... No one praises what he has done so far... sure he has downed 3 very powerful ninjas.... but no one looks at it in a positive light..... Sakura will surpass Tsunade eventually in Medical ninjutsu, although I doubt she will pass her in combat... Tsunade is recognized by her medical, but she also is recognized for her fighting capabilities... sakura lacks in that development... Naruto is only one worthy of the title, but its a 3 team title an the one who gave the name is dead..... oro recieved the title when he was doing good things, then went bad, sasuke has only done incredible things when being evil.... team 7 are not sannin and never will be..... Naruto will be a legendary Hokage.... Sakura will be a renowned Medical Expert and who knows maybe 30 years down the road a hokage as well..... but sasuke will be dead.... which cannot come soon enough.... the idea that Ino, shika, and cho will e sannin is ridiculous... Ino sucks hard core, the other two are decent worthy shinobi but nothing more... Ino rides on the wings of stronger people, alone she is worthless I would rather have hinata defending me....


----------



## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jun 10, 2011)

*Why are people saying that Naruto's personallty has changed?*

People are saying stuff like Hes arrogant and hes acting like a brat... and that's cool cause he does but hes ALWAYS been like that from Day 1
or do you not remember this Link removed

or this 
Link removed

or even this 
Link removed 


this the only difference between now and then is now he has a loud mouth and immense amounts of power to back it up 

the ONLY time I see change is after he had that talk with nagato and got all pacifistic & peaceful  Link removed  that was just horrible
but thanks to sasuke he moved back into his usual self Link removed

But Currently Link removed this naruto is still the same old naruto why are people acting like naruto has changed? hes the same guy from chapter one hes just a whole lot stronger


----------



## wibisana (Jun 10, 2011)

He found enlightenment
He is now at Budha's/Jesus's loving an caring level


----------



## Summers (Jun 10, 2011)

His world view has expanded because of all this peace prophet stuff but his core personality has not changed. Agreed.


----------



## BlueSky Rena (Jun 10, 2011)

wibisana said:


> He found enlightenment
> He is now at *Budha's/Jesus's loving an caring level*



what he said  also, he is no longer the "OMG I am a cry baby, so Raikage sama please don't kill me Sasu" crap. He is now a "Raikage STF UP!" kinnda Budha


----------



## Cobblepot (Jun 10, 2011)

/thread.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 10, 2011)

Cobblepot said:


> /thread.



The amazing thing is that I just now came into this thread with the intent to post this.

I can see I'm not needed here, so I'll just say "Seconded" and move on.


----------



## Summers (Jun 10, 2011)

Cobblepot said:


> /thread.



Never mind. Naruto changed.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 10, 2011)

Damn, every time I see that page, I remember part 1 Naruto used to be a badass.

What the fuck happened? He's as bad as Sasuke now.


----------



## Coldhands (Jun 10, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> What the fuck happened? He's as bad as Sasuke now.



He _was_ as bad as Sasuke 

GARuto is back! 
Link removed


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 10, 2011)

JuubiSage said:


> He _was_ as bad as Sasuke
> 
> GARuto is back!
> Link removed



Just because Kyuubi is big doesn't change the fact that it's a pushover with a penchant for getting its ass kicked. Pinning it down with lolmindhax and stepping on its face for asserting a legitimate argument just makes Naruto look like the bully there.


----------



## Kyu (Jun 10, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Damn, every time I see that page, I remember part 1 Naruto used to be a badass.
> 
> What the fuck happened? *He's as bad as Sasuke now*.



Now I would'nt go that far but it has gotten pretty bad.

I liked Naruto during part 1 & some of part 2 thats probably I can't really hate him. But I have to admit at this rate he's getting there.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 10, 2011)

KyuubiV3 said:


> Now I would'nt go that far but it has gotten pretty bad.
> 
> I liked Naruto during part 1 & some of part 2 thats probably I can't really hate him. But I have to admit at this rate he's getting there.



Oh please, all the "I UNDERSTAND YOU NOW SASUKE, WE'LL DIE TOGETHER" BS? Hyperventilating and passing out because he heard his classmates finally decided to stop sitting on their hands and do something about Sasuke permanently? This whole "WHAT'S MY PLAN? MY PLAN IS TO WIN, HURR DURR" business?

Yeah, he's as bad as Sasuke.


----------



## Sferr (Jun 10, 2011)

He is as bad as Sasuke for me already. It's amazing how my opinion has changed towards him. In the beginning of the series he was my favourite character.


----------



## Summers (Jun 10, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Oh please, all the "I UNDERSTAND YOU NOW SASUKE, WE'LL DIE TOGETHER" BS? Hyperventilating and passing out because he heard his classmates finally decided to stop sitting on their hands and do something about Sasuke permanently? This whole "WHAT'S MY PLAN? MY PLAN IS TO WIN, HURR DURR" business?
> 
> Yeah, he's as bad as Sasuke.



The classmates are better of sitting on their hands. 

On another note-They would get their asses kicked by sasuke. And the reason Sasuke kept getting away is because people kept getting IN the way and he was stronger than them.
K


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 10, 2011)

summers said:


> The classmates are better of sitting on their hands.
> 
> On another note-They would get their asses kicked by sasuke. And the reason Sasuke kept getting away is because people kept getting IN the way and he was stronger than them.
> K



Naruto's still in the wrong for trying to validate all of Sasuke's bullshit.


----------



## Synn (Jun 10, 2011)

They won't.


----------



## Kage (Jun 10, 2011)

people don't still believe this do they? 

i really don't think you can apply this sort of parallel now.


----------



## Benzaiten (Jun 10, 2011)

Because InoShikaChou is the next generation InoShikaChou trio? 

As for the Team 7 - Sannin thing, I think the parallel still has validity. They do have similarities after all like Sasuke/Oro defecting from Konoha, Naruto/Jiraiya failing to stop their teammate's descent to darkness and then continuing to pursue him and then, Sakura/Tsunade, the super strong medic of the team. That, and they were individually taught by them.

I don't think it's important anymore though since Naruto's more related to the Rikudou's younger son/Senju/Uzumaki/Yondaime while Sasuke's more related to the Uchiha/Madara/Rikudou's older son/hatred/etc. The Sannin thing was just a 'level' they needed to surpass and now that they surpassed it, they'll make names for themselves. Not sure if the same can be said about Sakura though. She is yet to demonstrate anything that proves that.


----------



## tnorbo (Jun 10, 2011)

that comparisons been screwed for a while now. ethier sasuke or naruto could rape the sannin by themselves, while sakura can't touch any of them. I don't see why anyone would want this anyway the sannin weren't that special. team 7>the sannin just by virtue of naruto or sasuke alone.


----------



## tori22 (Jun 10, 2011)

I think the females get screentime but I do have a problem with the lack of other characters. I mean really we haven't seen Rock Lee, Neji or Kiba fight since the Sasuke retrieval arc. The only ones who have gotten some screentime besides team 7 are team asuma.


----------



## kyla1718 (Jun 10, 2011)

Females do not get the type of screen time that fans want to see... Sakuras bitching and moaning bores me.... I want to see tsunade or mai kill a hi tier villian.


----------



## tori22 (Jun 10, 2011)

Sakura got screentime, but it's not the fact that females dont get screentime its just the fact that most characters haven't gotten screentime lately. Tsunade i hope will get a fight in this war


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 10, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Just because Kyuubi is big doesn't change the fact that it's a pushover with a penchant for getting its ass kicked. Pinning it down with lolmindhax and stepping on its face for asserting a legitimate argument just makes Naruto look like the bully there.



naruto the bully  you will never be happy with anything he does, just admit it.


----------



## Supersonic Strawhat (Jun 11, 2011)

He could not be a bully and not be a pussy... _at the same time. _

Quite the challenge, I know.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jun 12, 2011)

Naruto(the person) needs fights. And I mean an arc full of fights or some shit.

Sure, Kishi gives him to best quality fights but I want quantity too.
He needs to nuke Raikage, nuke Itachi, nuke Nagato, nuke Kabuto, nuke the Jins and nuke the narutoverse dammit. I want more fights from him.


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## tori22 (Jun 16, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Naruto(the person) needs fights. And I mean an arc full of fights or some shit.
> 
> Sure, Kishi gives him to best quality fights but I want quantity too.
> He needs to nuke Raikage, nuke Itachi, nuke Nagato, nuke Kabuto, nuke the Jins and nuke the narutoverse dammit. I want more fights from him.



I completely disagree actually. I think it's the other characters that need more fights. Like Neji, Lee, etc.


----------



## Distance (Jun 16, 2011)

Where's the sauce!


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 16, 2011)

*Im so dissapointed...*

I wanted to see the seve swordsman vs Kakashi and friends + the kage battles. I feel like they had to be extremely epic, and kishi completely  disregarded these scenes so far.


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## sculeanca (Jun 17, 2011)

I am dissapointed in the author, to have such a good story at the beginning and such good cast but completly disregarding or forgetting them later in the story.


----------



## Aleph-1 (Jun 17, 2011)

Minato once again demonstrated how perfect he is. That's gotta suck for a certain segment of the posters here on NF....


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## Lacie (Jun 20, 2011)

Xwhitefangx7 said:


> I wanted to see the seve swordsman vs Kakashi and friends + the kage battles. I feel like they had to be extremely epic, and kishi completely  disregarded these scenes so far.



I hate how Kakashi was so hyped in the beginning of Part I, before enduring loss after loss, and finally not getting screentime when he was about to go berzerk . Where are his 1000 jutsus? How many have we seen so far? Can't Kishi keep one of his promises and make it up to Kakashi?


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## Immortalis (Jun 23, 2011)

Cobblepot said:


> /thread.



haha, so true


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## Raiden (Jun 23, 2011)

My biggest complaint is that I cannot wrap my head around the technicality of new bloodlines, such as Blaze release : /.


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## Kotoamatsukami (Jun 26, 2011)

*I don't like how everyone gives a .. about Narutos heritage*

This is one of the points that bothered me the most in the past. Throughout the manga, we have got to know that Jiraya, Tsunade as well as Kakashi and others definitely knew who Narutos parents were.

This chapter Tsunade was like " I knew that Minato was not that kind of a man blabla". But did Naruto ever question why Jiraya or Tsunade never talked to him about his parents? I mean Kushina may not have been THAT relevant since she was just a "random" shinobi from the Uzumaki clan, but hey, I do think its a freaking big deal if your dad was the Hokage and the people who were closest to you knew it but never told you. I think that makes them kind of hypocrits and Naruto a bit dumb as well since he never questioned their silence.

And please, come on, dont come at me with the argument "But they wanted to protect him by not telling him". Just the fact that Naruto had the Kyuubi in him and everyone knew about that made him the most protected person in the village. So what would being the Hokages dad change about that? Also, Naruto was Target Number One of Akatsuki since the first time Itachi appeared in the village and told Kakashi and the other Jounins about that. Therefore, at least after Jiraya died, Tsunade or Kakashi could have talked to Naruto...


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## CrazyAries (Jun 26, 2011)

It would have been a good time for Naruto to be told the truth about his parents during the two and a half years that he was away.  He had matured to the point where he would not have gone around bragging about his parentage.  It also would have have served as an extra confidence booster, Naruto would have already had an idea of Yondaime's reasoning, and he would have known sooner about the possibility of Madara being the cause of the kyuubi attack.  But hey, it was totally dramatic when Minato showed up in Naruto's mind to restore the seal.


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## Neptun (Jun 26, 2011)

What made you think they weren't pricks that simply had fun watching Naruto suffer all the time?


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## RaidenisDead (Jun 26, 2011)

Naruto sees his parents in person, which is more dramatic from a storytelling point of view. It wouldn't have been as good to hear about them from someone who didn't have a firsthand account of what happened that night.


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## vegeta2002 (Jun 26, 2011)

Naruto would've grown up to be an asshole (Sasuke) if he knew who his parents were. Oro didn't know who he was until he performed the Rasengan at which point he immediately tried to kill him. Kumo or Kiri would've kidnapped Naruto a long ago if he was running around bragging that he was royalty on both sides of his family.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 26, 2011)

*A "cornucopia" of plot holes*

I think most of the posters here have been reading the manga from Chapter 1 all the way up to where we are currently. We know that Kishimoto isn't exactly a literary genius (or even a genius at all, lol) so there's probably more plot holes all over his story than a wedge of swiss cheese. I'm bored enough to do this, so I'm going to list all of the plot holes in this manga that I can think of, and if I'm forgetting any let me know what they are. There's going to be a few:

1. *Kabuto's sudden and meteoric rise in power and accomplishments from midway in Part 2 up until now.*
One of the first things I think of is how it doesn't make any goddamn sense how Kabuto managed to do everything that he's done after Orochimaru's demise to Sasuke further back in the story. Mainly the "Manda version 2.0" that he created. How the hell could he possibly genetically engineer, create, and grow another giant serpent in the span of time that transpired? That must have been some GODLY technology he was using because otherwise I just can't explain how it happened, with Kabuto moving around in the Narutoverse on foot quite a bit.

2. *Sasuke's escape from Deidara's suicide blast.*
This qualifies as a plot hole. How on earth can you possibly explain how the fuck Sasuke managed to summon Manda, get inside, and escape that blast when it was less than a second away from him. Not buying it....Minato is among the fastest characters in the manga and he probably couldn't escape it without using Hiraishin. I firmly believe that Kishimoto bended the logic to make ends meet so that Sasuke wouldn't be killed in that fight, and the only shinobi I can really see escaping the blast without there being an asspull is Madara.

3. *Naruto's "growth" that was supposedly shown at the start of Part 2.*
Kishimoto tells us all this crap like Naruto's growth during the timeskip surpasses all imagination. He goes off to train under Jiraiya for 2 and a half years and comes back fairly empty-handed. I mean, what all did he actually learn? Basic genjutsu resistance and how to better control the 9-tails.....and somehow this qualifies as substantial growth? Lol, come on Kishimoto. If you're going to state these things about a character, you HAVE to deliver. This comes across to me as false advertising when he hypes characters in such a way and then they fall flat on their faces.

4. *Sasuke's meteoric rise in power during the timeskip.*
The haters aren't gonna want to hear this, but certain things don't add up about Sasuke's growth during the same 2 and a half years. Sasuke basically goes from being a genin to a god during this period of time....and that's all fine and dandy because he's a genius, but if you look closely enough you'll notice that Kishimoto had to drop hints to try and explain away any nonsense regarding all of this. Sasuke is shown to have an enormous edge over most shinobi that he goes up against, in speed, hell, maybe even strength too? Sakura mentioned that he might be taking drugs from Oro to boost his battle stats (in a similar way to how pro athletes sometimes take steroids to boost themselves above the competition). What do you think? Does Sasuke's timeskip growth make perfect sense to you or do you see holes in it?

5. *Tsunade becoming hokage.*
I am seriously not a hater of this character, but I want to point out how she really wasn't a good choice to replace Sandaime as Konoha's military leader. She was a self-hating alcoholic when Jiraiya tracked her down and asked her to assume the position, and the top brass let her take the position as well although the elders certainly didn't like her very much. They had good reason to.....it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to put a self-deprecating alcoholic in a high position of authority, lol.

So, uh, what other plot holes are there that I'm forgetting to mention?


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## WT (Jun 26, 2011)

You forgot the biggest one:

Ma having her shopping supplies near Konoha of all places (all the way from Myōbokuzan), shopping there at the right time and able to summon Naruto


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## Puppetry (Jun 26, 2011)

I don't even consider half of these plot holes. :/


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## Coldhands (Jun 26, 2011)

Yeah, these aren't really plot holes.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 26, 2011)

Alright you guys win. I guess I'm just pointing out shitty writing here? Lawl.


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## SSGG (Jun 26, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> I don't even consider half of these plot holes. :/


 
Yeah, I don't think these really qualify as plotholes, more like plot convenience and crappy character development.


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## KAKASHI10 (Jun 26, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> 1. *Kabuto's sudden and meteoric rise in power and accomplishments from midway in Part 2 up until now.*
> 
> So, uh, what other plot holes are there that I'm forgetting to mention?



It was pointed all along part one that Kabuto was on par with Kakashi, more over he was under Orochimaru guidens.



> 2. *Sasuke's escape from Deidara's suicide blast.*



I know it was a  moment, but very genius indeed. 



> 3. *Naruto's "growth" that was supposedly shown at the start of Part 2.*



I agree with this one. 



> 4. *Sasuke's meteoric rise in power during the timeskip.*


Simple= Orochimaru was he teacher and sharinga says HI.



> 5. *Tsunade becoming hokage.*


Not touching this one for now.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 26, 2011)

I personally believe that there was a decision made to simply not tell Naruto until he asked. Maybe Konoha has laws that say an orphan can't be told about their parentage until they're adults (although I think that rule only applies to adoptions, but who was gonna adopt Naruto ).

But if you consider all that went down the night he was born, frankly him being told by any of the many people who had an incomplete account of the event without being ready or wanting to know would be an incredible amount of weight. But him wanting to know and asking implies that he is ready for it at least in his own mind.

Why wouldn't Naruto ask? On some level I'm sure he thought it didn't really matter that much, after all they weren't there. Living in a ninja village, parents dying isn't exactly a rare occurrence. Maybe he thought that if it was important someone would've volunteered the information. Maybe he was scared he'd be disappointed. If his parents were just a couple of late teen genin with nothing exceptional who got offed in a random accident in the Third Ninja War, and it wasn't particularly important, for as well as the village treated him then he probably didn't care or want to know that. He may have thought that considering how low his skills were in the academy.

And seriously, considering his personality, you probably wouldn't want Naruto to have gotten big headed as a child. 

"I'm gonna be the Hokage. The greatest Hokage ever even better than my Dad."

"Shut up you lying little shit, the Fourth Hokage wasn't your Dad! Yondaime Hokage was one of the greatest ninja who ever lived, your sorry ass can't even throw a shuriken straight! There's no way in hell an apple can fall that far from the tree. Stop dirtying our Yondaime Hokage's name with your bull shit. Just hurry up and die, it'll make the world a better place, you worthless little punk!"



RaidenisDead said:


> Naruto sees his parents in person, which is more dramatic from a storytelling point of view. It wouldn't have been as good to hear about them from someone who didn't have a firsthand account of what happened that night.


This is true.

Another point, how do you tell a kid, "your father is the one who put you in this shitty position." Since Minato wasn't able to tell anyone about Madara Naruto would have no clue why his father would dump him into such a shitty situation, especially if he was told his mom had the job before him. He may actually start hating his father. Let alone theories about what the hell happened? The kyubi seal weakens during child birth? Can you hear Mizuki now? "THE KYUBI BROKE FREE BECAUSE OF YOU! IF YOU HAD NEVER BEEN CONCEIVED THEN YOUR MOM AND DAD WOULD STILL BE ALIVE AND HAPPY, AND THE FOURTH HOKAGE WOULD STILL BE AROUND!" 


vegeta2002 said:


> Naruto would've grown up to be an asshole (Sasuke) if he knew who his parents were. Oro didn't know who he was until he performed the Rasengan at which point he immediately tried to kill him. Kumo or Kiri would've kidnapped Naruto a long ago if he was running around bragging that he was royalty on both sides of his family.



That is an interesting theory. It bears some truth. Knowing the stock he comes from he may have become insufferable. More to the point, if he ran around with the knowledge that his father was the hero who saved the village, I doubt it would've altered the villager's opinion of him, since they didn't honor the Fourth's request to see him as a hero anyway. It may have made his perception of the hatred worse. Not that the situation would have changed but it may have hurt Naruto even more. "My father killed himself saving these people, and they can't even treat me like I'm a human being." Such a sentiment may have given him a similar outlook to Sasuke, that the village was benefiting from his suffering. That would easily alter his thinking to a Sasuke or even a Gaara.

From another perspective, if he did run around saying he was the Hokage's son, then people would start calling him a liar in addition to that brat. As above, I doubt Sarutobi would be able to change their minds, since they didn't mind him much about treating him with respect anyway.


----------



## MYJC (Jun 26, 2011)

*Who is the most selfish/egotistical character in the series?*

Sasuke - Doesn't care about anything or anybody besides himself and his revenge. He doesn't care about Naruto, or Sakura, or Kakashi, or what Itachi would've wanted, or the good of the world, or even that he's helping Madara take over. Just him and his revenge, everybody and everything else be damned.

Orochimaru - Wants to be immortal so he can learn all ninjutsu. Nobody else's life matters at all, ethics be damned. It's all about him and his goals. Doesn't care about Jiraiya and Tsunade, doesn't care about his old master, doesn't care about Konoha, just himself and his immortality.

Madara - He's still mad because HE felt his clan didn't respect him enough and thought HE should've been Hokage. Got so mad he threw a hissy fit and left the village, and has tried to attack it several times since then. Now wants to take over the world and brainwash everybody for no obvious reason other than that he still thinks HE should be in charge. 

Deidara - Just wants to blow shit up and prove his art is better than anybody else's. Why? What do you mean why? 0Doesn't seem to care about much of anything else. 

Kakuzu - All about the $$$, nothing else in this world is reliable. 

Naruto - Will try to save Sasuke regardless of the atrocities he commits just because, well, he's obsessed I guess. No matter how much better off the ninja world would be without Sasuke, he'll still try to save him. Also thinks he's the "Chosen One" and that he can end the war by himself. 

Danzo - Wants to be in charge because he thinks his way of doing things will lead to peace. Democracy, fairness, and ethics be damned. Sincerely believed HE was the only one that could bring peace to the ninja world.

Nagato - Thinks he's a deity, or at least would like everyone else to think so. Thinks his idea of creating a huge WMD will bring peace to the world. Feels that he has a right to judge people and play god. 

Kabuto - Wants to "discover the truth" beyond all ninjutsu, and, much like Orochimaru and Nagato, feels that he has the right to play god in order to do so. 

Poll coming.


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## αce (Jun 26, 2011)

Egotistical - Calling yourself a god means you have a huge ego.
Selfish - Madara or Orochimaru


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## Nikushimi (Jun 26, 2011)

Naruto.

Fucking messiah complex. Uses force to get what he wants. Thinks only of his own self-imposed duties.

/thread


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 26, 2011)

What Nikushimi said. Naruto must learn how to obey the higher ups.


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## Judecious (Jun 26, 2011)

Like Ace said Madara or Orochimaru


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## Makoto Sensei (Jun 26, 2011)

Naruto the messiah and God of the new world 8/


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## Godric (Jun 26, 2011)

naruto 100% tho all of them belong there naruto is the worst and most annoying too.


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## kyla1718 (Jun 26, 2011)

My top 6 are Naruto, Sasuke, Raikage, Madara, Kabuto, Orchimaru

ALTHOUGH I LOVE when Orochimaru tells Sai if he continues to talk to him in a disrespectful manner he will kill him. HAHAHAHA My favorite Oro moment lol, big ego, but at least it suits him well.


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## Briella (Jun 26, 2011)

Why, of course...
Uchiha Madara... Manipulative child-snatcher.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 26, 2011)

Naruto all the way.


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## Soca (Jun 26, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Naruto.
> 
> Fucking messiah complex. Uses force to get what he wants. Thinks only of his own self-imposed duties.
> 
> /thread





Makoto Sensei said:


> Naruto the messiah and God of the new world 8/





Godric said:


> naruto 100% tho all of them belong there naruto is the worst and most annoying too.





Godaime Kazekage said:


> Naruto all the way.



**


----------



## DanE (Jun 26, 2011)

Naruto of course, he kills Pain aka God and now he thinks he can be God, bitch please.


----------



## Achilles (Jun 26, 2011)

"Love only myself, ect....."

Oh, wait. He's not listed.


Oro and Madara.


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## ashher (Jun 26, 2011)

This will eventually boil down to a mud slinging between naruto and sasuke fans. I voted deidara, and somehow he is one that really fits the meaning of the word egotistical for me. Sasuke and Naruto both pushes themselves for their goals, and sasuke is selfish alright...but overestimating themselves is not what their main traits are. They really do have great goals and great importance as individuals. Deidara on the other hand was just vain, looking down on everybody else and was not able to bear the fact that someone can be better than him. Anyone close to him that comes to mind is part 1 neji.


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## King Of Gamesxx (Jun 26, 2011)

I would call Pain egotistical and Naruto a bit selfish.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 26, 2011)

The one with the savior complex.

Naruto. 



Nikushimi said:


> Naruto.
> 
> Fucking messiah complex. Uses force to get what he wants. Thinks only of his own self-imposed duties.
> 
> /thread



Yes. Exactly.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jun 26, 2011)

Egotistical - Naruto
Selfish - Naruto



"I'M THE LOLSAVIORZ, MOOVE OUT OF TEH WAYE!!"


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## ashher (Jun 26, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Egotistical - Naruto
> Selfish - Naruto
> 
> 
> ...



this savior/messiah thing is being blown out of proportion. What exactly is the savior supposed to call himself?


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 26, 2011)

ashher said:


> this savior/messiah thing is being blown out of proportion. What exactly is the savior supposed to call himself?



Perhaps the word "savior" should never have been introduced in the first place.


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## Oturan (Jun 26, 2011)

what I think...

naruto is'nt selfish..he does things for the greater good...he just does it in _his_ way( *AHEM* SHOUNEN MAIN CHARACTER)...that's just how it is. ...besides..he's trying to save sasuke because he sees the good in him...and there is..sasuke is just crazy because his brother killed everyone he loved..his life goal was to get revenge when he finally does..he finds out it was'nt really itachi's fault...he's just lost and upset and pissed the fuck off...would'nt you be too?.. I know I would be
the person I think is selfish is orochimaru...killing people so he can get immortal..he's so cool  but selfish! 
madara is'nt selfish..he wants world peace...LET ME REPEAT...WORLD.PEACE...he's just doing it in a f*cked up way because who wants a delusional world...


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## ashher (Jun 26, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Perhaps the word "savior" should never have been introduced in the first place.



it was not naruto who introduced the word.


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## Eth (Jun 26, 2011)

Once again I'm caught wondering why some of you guys bother to read the manga.

To all the Naruto haters: How can Naruto be selfish if he's trying to save someone else. (note the rhetorical period instead of a question mark)

... and don't give me any of that 'he's trying to save Sasuke for himself' crap.


I'd probably have to say Oro wins on both counts.  Even Madara has a 'greater good' despite being off his rocker about it.  Sasuke would probably be a close second to Oro.

Naruto doesn't fit the bill at all for selfish.  On the egotistical front I'd say he might be starting a little but far from how egotistical some of the other choices are.  Remember, a lot of Naruto's 'ego' comes from others/kishi and not Naruto himself.  Only recently has he began to display an ego beyond what every other ninja has and that's mainly from accepting what he's finally becoming.


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## Soca (Jun 26, 2011)

ashher said:


> this savior/messiah thing is being blown out of proportion. What exactly is the savior supposed to call himself?



Why not stick to his own bloody name, calling yourself the savior says all kinds of things about your ego.


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## Doge (Jun 27, 2011)

Either Naruto or Sasuke.

Sasuke- hates Konoha because Madara was a huge conspiracy theorist and pulled a Harold Camping on the Leaf, and actually got supporters.  So naturally no one wants a Konoha that can be easily wiped out by an enemy nation because of a civil war.  They wipe out the Uchihas.  Now the Sauce is mad at Konoha and will not stop until he destroys it, and then go out and have some cookies with Zetsu right after.

Naruto- Obsessed with bringing back Sasuke.  I mean, he's put other people in harms way and near death MULTIPLE times, just to here the Sauce say "screw you I'm leaving".  It has gotten pretty old and Naruto would probably sacrifice his whole village to save one butthurt emo.

Sasuke is the base of the problems.  Who gave sasuke problems?  Konoha, who gave Konoha problems?  Madara.  Who gave Madara issues?  Uchiha heritage.  Who gave Uchiha heritage problems, themselves. 

uchiha clan is at fault.


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## ashher (Jun 27, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> Why not stick to his own bloody name, calling yourself the savior says all kinds of things about your ego.



you confused much? Has naruto asked others to call him savior and not naruto anymore? He hasn't changed his name mate, nor has he asked others to stop using it. So no question of not sticking to his name.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 27, 2011)

... Itachi?


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## Cjones (Jun 27, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Naruto.
> 
> Fucking messiah complex. Uses force to get what he wants. Thinks only of his own self-imposed duties.
> 
> /thread



I lol'd and have to agree.



ashher said:


> this savior/messiah thing is being blown out of proportion. What exactly is the savior supposed to call himself?



A savoir doesn't call himself a savoir.

The word should never have been used imo.


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## Kyu (Jun 27, 2011)

lvl80elitetaurenchieftain said:


> Either Naruto or Sasuke.
> 
> Sasuke- hates Konoha because Madara was a huge conspiracy theorist and pulled a Harold Camping on the Leaf, and actually got supporters.  So naturally no one wants a Konoha that can be easily wiped out by an enemy nation because of a civil war.  They wipe out the Uchihas.  Now the Sauce is mad at Konoha and will not stop until he destroys it, and then go out and have some cookies with Zetsu right after.
> 
> ...



I'm going with this.

Naruto is slightly more bearible than the Sauce.

Although thats not saying much considering how awful they both are.


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## Soca (Jun 27, 2011)

ashher said:


> you confused much? Has naruto asked others to call him savior and not naruto anymore? He hasn't changed his name mate, nor has he asked others to stop using it. So no question of not sticking to his name.



either way the name is freaking retarded to be even brought in


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## BrokenBonds (Jun 27, 2011)

Egotistic: Nagato, I'm god!
Selfish: Madara, I'm going to control everything! You wont have freedom! YAAY!


----------



## vegeta2002 (Jun 27, 2011)

^^You didn't address the fact that as soon Oro knew realized who he was, he tried to run him thru with Kusanagi.  Oro always toys with his victims even when they're extremely dangerous (Sarutobi), but he tried to one panel Naruto after his first rasengan. 
Just protecting him from Orochimaru would've been reason enough not to tell him. It's possible that Tsunade only knew about Naruto's heritage because he's basically her nephew a few times removed (last Senju/Uzumaki).


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 27, 2011)

ashher said:


> this savior/messiah thing is being blown out of proportion. What exactly is the savior supposed to call himself?



Humble. Like the 'hope for mankind' should be.



lvl80elitetaurenchieftain said:


> Naruto- Obsessed with bringing back Sasuke.  I mean, he's put other people in harms way and near death MULTIPLE times, just to here the Sauce say "screw you I'm leaving".  It has gotten pretty old and Naruto would probably sacrifice his whole village to save one butthurt emo.
> 
> Sasuke is the base of the problems.  Who gave sasuke problems?  Konoha, who gave Konoha problems?  Madara.  Who gave Madara issues?  Uchiha heritage.  Who gave Uchiha heritage problems, themselves.
> 
> uchiha clan is at fault.



How is the Uchiha clan at fault for Naruto being selfish and egotistical? That's ridiculous. Nobody is at fault there but Naruto himself. You can't blame aspects of your personality on someone else.

Naruto's selfish actions when it comes to Sasuke are not Sasuke's problem, especially when you consider the fact that he despises what he's doing anyhow. If you have some crazy stalker who is endangering others to "rescue" you, despite the fact that you don't want it, would you be at fault for their selfish obsession? Of course not.


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## zuul (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto of course.


----------



## Santeira (Jun 27, 2011)




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## Russo (Jun 27, 2011)

Lee for having his own chapter about doing all kunoichis: 


and now he got his own manga...


he is such a selfish prick!


----------



## WraithX959 (Jun 27, 2011)

It's simple, blame Kishi.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 27, 2011)

WTF? How can you have a messiah complex, when you are in fact the messiah? Don't blame Naruto for Kishimoto's writing, it is what it is.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jun 27, 2011)

Ok then, we are blaming Kishimoto through Naruto


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## erivar (Jun 27, 2011)

I already realized that Konoha is a village filled with douchebags who treat the kid of the guy who saved their lives and the lives of the future generation like vermin. Stupid adults who neglect orphans. A godfather who doesn't do his job until the kid is 13 but only after the kid had to seduce him by turning into a naked bimbo. It makes sense they thought a kid shouldn't know his biological parents like every other kid because: "he will become a bragging asshole?" because Konohamaru, Tsunade and Asuma turned out to be bragging assholes.

Or they kept the truth from him because they were trying to protect him because Konoha is such a special village with such a special tailed beast that Naruto was the only Jinchuuriki anybody will ever care about kidnapping. It was made even more apparent because not even the famed strongest ninja, the Hokage and lower ninja's could protect Naruto so the need for secrecy was of the highest priority.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> WTF? How can you have a messiah complex, when you are in fact the messiah? Don't blame Naruto for Kishimoto's writing, it is what it is.



^
. Quoted for sense.


----------



## CrazyAries (Jun 27, 2011)

I think that egotism and selfishness can be separated in this story.

Orochimaru was extremely selfish and he strikes me as more selfish than arrogant. He was obsessed with knowledge and immortality served as a means for him to attain that knowledge for a long period of time.  He did not care that much for most of his subordinates or have many morals when it came to conducting his experiments.  He showed arrogance when facing Sandaime, and that arrogance ws ultimately Orochimaru's undoing.  He was confident that he would eventually have an Uchiha body, but Sasuke and Itachi saw to it that he would not.  He may have intimidated others at times, but he recognized extraordinary ability and he let Sasuke talk to him in a brash manner.

Madara does not seem egotistical (at first) but it is very clear that he is selfish.  For the most part, he has been very patient when carrying out his plans.  He comes across a setback, he starts anew.  He said that he respected Hashirama and complimented Minato on his skill.  In his mechinations, Madara endangered the Uchiha clan and led to its destruction.  The members of Akatsuki were used and needed to be eliminated eventually, so Madara was not too phased by their demise.  If he is telling the truth about the Moon's Eye Plan, he plans on being the ultimate control freak.  Peace will only be an illusion if he can manipulate others to such a degree.  Even though Madara has been patient, one would ultimately have to have a big ego in order to want to take control of the world (and the minds of others).

Sasuke does have egotistical and selfish aspects.  He held up the Uchiha name when down talking to Orochimaru and was angry at the progress that Naruto made after the Chunnin Exams.  Sasuke used others to gain power and wants to destroy the whole of Konoha by himself. Now, he had his brother's eyes implanted so he can carry out his revenge.

Naruto also has an ego and is selfish.  When he was younger, much of it was a front, but now he is brimming with confidence.  It might not have been meant to come of as arrogant, but there was something about the way he talked to Iruka the last time the two met.  The talk of the Savior could have left out, but Naruto thinks that he can take on the hate of the world and end the war himself.  He does want to help his friends, but their is not trust from him that they can help him.  Also, he said that it would be almost pointless if peace happened at the cost of his friends.  What about those who have already died in the war so far?  Naruto wants to save Sasuke at a great cost and for his own reasons.  Killing Sasuke have never really been an option.  Naruto is imposing his will on the entire situation by holding off that possibility as much as possible.

Kabuto is egotistical and selfish.  He had always appeared humble, but that was part of a brilliant act.  He has always had extreme confidence in his own abilities, although he wants to surpass Orochimaru and has followed his footsteps where it comes to abilities, experiments and the quest for knowledge.  He stated that he wanted to fight Sasuke then Naruto.  Now, he is taking on Madara and he summoned many dead shinobi via Edo Tensei.  Has he bitten off more than he can chew?  Only time will tell.

Danzo was selfish and egotistical.  He acted against the orders of his Hokage because he felt that his way was best for certain situations.  He worked with Orochimaru -- a criminal -- in order to control the kyuubi.  He allowed the village to be raised without so much as sending reinforcements during Pain's invasion.  That was for him to claim power.  He did not want to leave Mifune's decision to chance, so Danzo hypnotized him with Shisui's eye.  He would never admit that some things he did were catastrophic, but categorize his actions as being for the best interest of Konohagakure.

I would not really call Deidara selfish or egotistical.  He placed a greater importance on his art than his own life, but he was seething from that defeat by Itachi.

Now, out of all of these characters, Nagato had the biggest ego.  He called himself a god, told Naruto or whomever that his pain was greater and acted like judge and jury.

I do not really know what to say about Kakuzu, but I loved what he had to say about money.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jun 27, 2011)

CrazyAries said:


> I think that egotism and selfishness can be separated in this story.  Orochimaru does not come off as being egotistical but extremely selfish. He was obsesses with knowledge and immortality served as a means for him to attain that knowledge for a long period of time.  He did not care that much for most of his subordinates or have many morals when it came to conducting his experiments.  He may have intimidated others at times, but he recognized extraordinary ability and he let Sasuke talk to him in a brash manner.
> 
> Madara does not seem egotistical but selfish.  For the most part, he has been very patient when carrying out his plans.  He comes across a setback, he starts anew.  He said that he respected Hashirama and complimented Minato on his skill.  In his mechinations, Madara endangered the Uchiha clan and led to its destruction.  The members of Akatsuki were used and needed to be eliminated eventually, so Madara was not too phased by their demise.  If he is telling the truth about the Moon's Eye Plan, he plans on being the ultimate control freak.  Peace will only be an illusion if he can manipulate others to such a degree.
> 
> ...



Nicely done. 

Repped.


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## Serenity Fever (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> WTF? How can you have a messiah complex, when you are in fact the messiah? Don't blame Naruto for Kishimoto's writing, it is what it is.


Dude, can I fucking quote you? So much truth.


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## CrazyAries (Jun 27, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Nicely done.
> 
> Repped.



Thanks .  Funny thing is that I added more that post.  I wanted to include my thoughts on everyone in the poll.  I have not voted yet, but I think that three of the choices have both ego and selfishness.


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## Santeira (Jun 27, 2011)

*Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.​**Oscar Wilde*
_Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)_


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jun 27, 2011)

Well it aint Sasuke Freakin' Uchiha that's for damn certain


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## Naruto (Jun 27, 2011)

This is ridiculous. Naruto spends his entire life feeling like a pariah, getting ostracized by his own peers, being told by everyone around him he shouldn't aspire to anything, and finally when the manga reaches the point where Naruto has received the recognition he deserves he's suddenly bratty and egotistical.

Why are you even reading this? No, I'm serious. Why are you reading this manga? Did you not know this is where it was headed? It's the whole purpose of this bloody thing.

Christ...


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## TaskMaster (Jun 27, 2011)

Egotistical I'm going to have to go with Nagato all the way

As for Selfish it's clearly Orochimaru. This shouldn't even be questioned. All he did was care about himself with NO REGARDS to anyone else

Naruto is a different case. Even though Naruto has became Saviour and Messiah and what not he is no way in hell a selfish person. Pretty much 90% of what he does is for someone else. Arrogant hell yes, selfish nah


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## Minko (Jun 27, 2011)

I'll have to go with Sasuke.

He tends to only think about himself.


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## Santeira (Jun 27, 2011)

People have their own reasons for feeling him as egotistical and selfish regardless if they didn't foreshadow this manga to go this route. Naruto's dream is just simple in the beginning:



			
				Naruto said:
			
		

> "My dream is to surpass the Hokage, and then have the village acknowledge my existence!"



It's pretty reasonable for some readers to not think that he was going to be the human race savior with ridiculous powers in the end. But want he desires, for others to live as he wishes, and to think of himself as a savior gives the impression of selfishness and egotism.


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## Empathy (Jun 27, 2011)

Madara's wanting to rule the entire world, and have it peaceful to his liking, grants him the most selfish title by default. 

Egotistical would have to be Pain, if you refer to yourself as god. 

Naruto in recent chapters has been seeming to be rather overconfident with this whole messiah(even though he is) or pariah stuff, and shouldering everyone's burden, while endangering the entire world, just because he doesn't want his friends to fight for him.

This seems to be a HoU thread to me.


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## Serenity Fever (Jun 27, 2011)

Santeira said:


> It's pretty reasonable for some readers to not think that he was going to be the human race savior with ridiculous powers in the end.


True, true. Didn't think he'd be some human race savior. That's a bit far, I agree.

But y'know, the hokage IS the strongest ninja in the village, so I did expect ridiculous powers in the end.


----------



## Forlong (Jun 27, 2011)

The lord of all whiny little bitches Sasuke himself.  It's no contest, even if you include other anime, or anything else for that matter.  Sasuke is the most hard-headedly selfish character to ever shame fiction with his conception.


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## Luffyfangirl24 (Jun 27, 2011)

I gotta agree with Forlong, gotta say Sasuke as the selfish one here. He hasn't thought about his friends in along time, its always me me me blah blah blah!


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## Forlong (Jun 27, 2011)

Because anime is stupid.  Best reason I can come up with.


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## CrazyAries (Jun 27, 2011)

Santeira said:


> People have their own reasons for feeling him as egotistical and selfish regardless if they didn't foreshadow this manga to go this route. Naruto's dream is just simple in the beginning:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very true.  I will say this:  At the beginning, Naruto needed to learn things about being Hokage.  When he made that statement, he was angry at the other villagers and equated being Hokage to being powerful and commanding respect.  He especially wanted the respect.  Now, he does understand that it is important for the Hokage to return that respect to the other villagers and the cherish them.

However, I blame Kishimoto for the way that this change in Naruto has developed.  It is a huge jump for the hero to go from wanting to lead his village to being the savior of his world.  The help of others is being minimized as one person is being held responsible for their welfare.  Yes, what looks like arrogance is him accepting the role that he was given, but it is a bit much for one person.  It is also a bit much for one person to be a threat to an entire village, let alone the entire world.  These are proportional issues.....


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 27, 2011)

MYJC said:


> Madara - He's still mad because HE felt his clan didn't respect him enough and thought HE should've been Hokage. Got so mad he threw a hissy fit and left the village, and has tried to attack it several times since then. Now wants to take over the world and brainwash everybody for no obvious reason other than that he still thinks HE should be in charge.


Voted Madara for these reasons, pretty much.

And lol @ the haters bashing Naruto ITT.


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## Forlong (Jun 27, 2011)

Santeira said:


> *Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.​**Oscar Wilde*
> _Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)_



What the Hell is that supposed to mean?  Dr. Cox, could you take care of this one?
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/YOUTUBE]

Thanks.  Now, to clarify, "asking" isn't part of being selfish.  "_Demanding_" is selfish.  I don't know this Mr. Wilde, but he totally didn't know what he was talking about.


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 27, 2011)

Madara, Sasuke, Naruto, and Orochimaru are at the top of my list for being the most selfish and egotistical bastards.


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## Helios (Jun 27, 2011)

The self proclaimed savior of the world,the messiah...Naarutoooo


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 27, 2011)

Forlong said:


> What the Hell is that supposed to mean?  Dr. Cox, could you take care of this one?
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Thanks.  Now, to clarify, "asking" isn't part of being selfish.  "_Demanding_" is selfish.  I don't know this Mr. Wilde, but he totally didn't know what he was talking about.



You don't know who Oscar Wilde is? 

Have you never read _The Picture of Dorian Gray_?


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## WraithX959 (Jun 27, 2011)

Santeira said:


> *Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.​**Oscar Wilde*
> _Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)_



So are you saying that Sarutobi's act of letting Orochimaru go was a completely selfless act?

Here's a quote for you: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." 

Naruto has already resolved himself to redeem Sasuke or kill him. I don't see how sacrificing yourself to insure that an evil man can do no harm could be considered a selfish act. Sasuke has the right to choose how he lives his life, however when his choices infringe on the lives of others, they have the right to protect their way of life.

Furthermore, going by that quote of yours, wouldn't Sasuke still be far more selfish than Naruto? He's the one who requires the deaths of all of Konoha to appease his own selfish need for revenge.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> So are you saying that Sarutobi's act of letting Orochimaru go was a completely selfless act?
> 
> Here's a quote for you: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
> 
> ...



"Life is too important to take seriously."
- Oscar Wilde


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 27, 2011)

Obvious answer is obvious. Naruto ofc


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## Helios (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto has made everyone believe that he is the savior of the world,he is carrying the hopes of many.He has also stated that he intends to help Sasuke or die trying.This is an antithetic structure because in his mind the world is equal to a mad man.Simply if he fails to redeem Sasuke, Naruto will deprive the world from its "savior".Now how selfish is that?

Of course the issue can easily be solved if the author decides ,and it seems like it,to change the flow of the story by considering a different final villain.


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## Santeira (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> So are you saying that Sarutobi's act of letting Orochimaru go was a completely selfless act?
> 
> Here's a quote for you: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
> 
> ...



I like to go against the flow. Sasuke, Orochimaru, they are villains, and they all are selfish. It irks me though that when the supposed 'good guys' are doing the same thing, it's not seen as selfishness, even when it is all the same. 

Naruto characters are full of selfish people, but it would be entirely boring to point at the villains for all the negative traits. It's more glaring to me how selfish Naruto is becase it is the value that author tries to pass as something positive and should be supported, when he is acting exactly as the person he opposes by forcing his ideals on others. He's a protagonist, supposedly the hero, but he's just no better, if not worse.



silenceofthelambs said:


> "Life is too important to take seriously."
> - Oscar Wilde



This as well.


----------



## WraithX959 (Jun 27, 2011)

Helios said:


> Naruto has made everyone believe that he is the savior of the world,he is carrying the hopes of many.He has also stated that he intends to help Sasuke or die trying.This is an antithetic structure because in his mind the world is equal to a mad man.Simply if he fails to redeem Sasuke, Naruto will deprive the world from its "savior".Now how selfish is that?
> 
> Of course the issue can easily be solved if the author decides ,and it seems like it,to change the flow of the story by considering a different final villain.



You're simply rationalizing, I can do that as well. It may very well be the case that Naruto saving Sasuke is essential to him fulling his role as the Destined Child. There is a very significant chance that whoever or whatever the final big bad is, Naruto & Sasuke will likely have to team-up to stop it. So, Naruto could just as easily doom the world by not trying to save Sasuke.  



Santeira said:


> I like to go against the flow. Sasuke, Orochimaru, they are villains, and they all are selfish. It irks me though that when the supposed 'good guys' are doing the same thing, it's not seen as selfishness, even when it is all the same.
> 
> Naruto characters are full of selfish people, but it would be entirely boring to point at the villains for all the negative traits. It's more glaring to me how selfish Naruto is becase it is the value that author tries to pass as something positive and should be supported, when he is acting exactly as the person he opposes by forcing his ideals on others. He's a protagonist, supposedly the hero, but he's just no better, if not worse.



This would be were we fundamentally disagree, I don't believe Kishimoto is attempting to portray Naruto or any of the other heroes in this story as flawless individuals who are always right. If anything he's gone out of his way to show the faults of all his heroes, as while as the pure and untainted side of many of his villains. Sarutobi failed when he let Orochimaru go(which imo was a selfish act) and also when he let Danzou do as he pleased with the Uchiha incident. Then there's Tobirama, he invented one of the most evil and vile jutsu known to man and it's currently being used against the Shinobi Allinance. And for as much faith as Minato but into Naruto, he also caused him a great deal of pain and aguish, he shouldn't be absolved from that responsiblity simply because it might have been the right thing to do. I think that from day one Kishimoto has tried to show that all his characters are human first, however flawed they all may be. Not even Rikudou Sennin was without fault, he made a decision that began a clan war that has lasted for ages.


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## insane111 (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't really care about the "savior" thing, my problem is him risking the entire world for his own selfish reasons. Obviously it's going to work out in the end, but it's still an annoying trait regardless.


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## WraithX959 (Jun 27, 2011)

insane111 said:


> I don't really care about the "savior" thing, my problem is him risking the entire world for his own selfish reasons. Obviously it's going to work out in the end, but it's still an annoying trait regardless.





You do realize that what you're saying pretty much amounts to the 12 Apostles telling Jesus "We got this". Seriously? You're irritated at Naruto for accepting and fulfilling a role that was given to him?


----------



## insane111 (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> You do realize that what you're saying pretty much amounts to the 12 Apostles telling Jesus "We got this". Seriously? You're irritated at Naruto for accepting and fulfilling a role that was given to him?



Didn't I just say that I don't care about that in the very first sentence of my post? I'm annoyed at him charging into the middle of the battlefield with absolutely no foresight/knowledge and creating a huge unnecessary risk. Kishi could've made him part of the war in a strategical way and it would have worked out fine.


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## Griever (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto: A very self centered character for reasons already stated. 

Nagato: Thinks he's god.

Orochimaru: Obvious.

Sasuke: also Obvious.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> WTF? How can you have a messiah complex, when you are in fact the messiah? Don't blame Naruto for Kishimoto's writing, it is what it is.



A billion times this!!!


Naruto is the messiah!*He doesn't call himself the messiah because of ego but because he is the messiah! *

What fucking manga are some people reading?




Naruto said:


> This is ridiculous. Naruto spends his entire life feeling like a pariah, getting ostracized by his own peers, being told by everyone around him he shouldn't aspire to anything, and finally when the manga reaches the point where Naruto has received the recognition he deserves he's suddenly bratty and egotistical.
> 
> Why are you even reading this? No, I'm serious. Why are you reading this manga? Did you not know this is where it was headed? It's the whole purpose of this bloody thing.
> 
> Christ...



Also, this!!


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## WraithX959 (Jun 27, 2011)

insane111 said:


> Didn't I just say that I don't care about that in the very first sentence of my post? I'm annoyed at him charging into the middle of the battlefield with absolutely no foresight/knowledge and creating a huge unnecessary risk. Kishi could've made him part of the war in a strategical way and it would have worked out fine.



It doesn't matter if you don't care about it, it's the reality of the story. Naruto being the "Savior", has a direct impact on whether or not he should be out there fighting in the war. It has also already been established that Naruto joining the war is a better option for the overall success of the Shinobi Alliance than him sitting on the sidelines. Kishimoto could have done what you suggested, but that would have been boring and uninteresting.


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## BlueSky Rena (Jun 27, 2011)

Since Sasuke is aiding one of his parents killers (Madara), I would say him. But his actions aren?t of selfish reasons, but of clan love. So I would have to say Orochimaru who always saw himself above all wanting to be the ultimate being. That?s some ego.


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## Serenity Fever (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto maybe "selfish" for putting the world into possible danger just for the sake of his friends, but there are downsides to each decision. There's a possibility that Madara has something up his sleeve that allows access to Naruto or whatever the risk, thus being pointless just sitting on his ass doing nothing.



WraithX959 said:


> This would be were we fundamentally disagree, I don't believe Kishimoto is attempting to portray Naruto or any of the other heroes in this story as flawless individuals who are always right. If anything he's gone out of his way to show the faults of all his heroes, as while as the pure and untainted side of many of his villains. Sarutobi failed when he let Orochimaru go(which imo was a selfish act) and also when he let Danzou do as he pleased with the Uchiha incident. Then there's Tobirama, he invented one of the most evil and vile jutsu known to man and it's currently being used against the Shinobi Allinance. And for as much faith as Minato but into Naruto, he also caused him a great deal of pain and aguish, he shouldn't be absolved from that responsiblity simply because it might have been the right thing to do. I think that from day one Kishimoto has tried to show that all his characters are human first, however flawed they all may be. Not even Rikudou Sennin was without fault, he made a decision that began a clan war that has lasted for ages.


I do like how Kishi shows that heroes are flawed. It's being realistic.


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## Griever (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> It doesn't matter if you don't care about it, it's the reality of the story. Naruto being the "Savior", has a direct impact on whether or not he should be out there fighting in the war. It has also already been established that Naruto joining the war is a better option for the overall success of the Shinobi Alliance than him sitting on the sidelines. Kishimoto could have done what you suggested, but that would have been boring and uninteresting.



I agree with insane111 here. While it's obvious that the main character is not just gonna sit around with his thumb up his ass during one of the most important moments in the manga, he could have at least come up with some sort of plan, developed a jutsu before going into the battle in which let him escape should he need to. Something rather than just charging into the thick of it all half-cocked and shit.

Also, letting the main character win with obvious plot holes is hell of a lot more boring than actually having him employ strategy and skill.


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## Shizukana (Jun 27, 2011)

geez, orochimaru of course . 

naruto selfish ? he didn't called himself a savior in the first place. and damn, what he said to the Fourth and save everyone's ass many times.
Fuckin ridiculous calling him selfish or egoistic. :|


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## Serenity Fever (Jun 27, 2011)

Griever said:


> I agree with insane111 here. While it's obvious that the main character is not just gonna sit around with his thumb up his ass during one of the most important moments in the manga, he could have at least come up with some sort of plan, developed a jutsu before going into the battle in which let him escape should he need to. Something rather than just charging into the thick of it all half-cocked and shit.
> 
> Also, letting the main character win with obvious plot holes is hell of a lot more boring than actually having him employ strategy and skill.


We haven't seen him fight yet. Maybe he does have some sort of plan. I mean sure, it's Naruto we're talking about. The one who barges in without thinking. But in such a serious situation (and one who puts the world/his friends in danger), I'm pretty sure he has some sort of strategy.


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## Crona (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto does have a big ego, he's not very selfish though. Whereas Madara has a big ego and is selfish but hey that's the reason I love him so much!


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## River Song (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto, nothing gets on my nerves like a messaih complex. Unless of course its well writen like orochimaru's or Nagato's one but I absalotely loathe naruto


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## WraithX959 (Jun 27, 2011)

Griever said:


> I agree with insane111 here. While it's obvious that the main character is not just gonna sit around with his thumb up his ass during one of the most important moments in the manga, he could have at least come up with some sort of plan, developed a jutsu before going into the battle in which let him escape should he need to. Something rather than just charging into the thick of it all half-cocked and shit.



I never said Naruto was without fault. Sure he's rash, impetuous, rude, bratty, and yes even selfish at times. That doesn't mean he wasn't right to act in the manner that he did. People were and are dying, people that are close to him, and people that he can help with his abilities.



Griever said:


> Also, letting the main character win with obvious plot holes is hell of a lot more boring than actually having him employ strategy and skill.



That's debatable. Also, having Naruto act in the manner you suggested would go against his established character. He isn't his father, Naruto is who he is because of how reacts in these types of situations.


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## Summers (Jun 27, 2011)

*Naruto?Is he really?*

Is this a "what character you dislike most" or a what characters is more selfish/ego thread"?

First off, him putting the world at risk and disobeying higher ups is not an issue in the manga anymore, he now has approval. 
Shikaku said he is the only one that can stop the Zetsu infiltration. 
The prophecy stuff, he would have done this prophecy or not, he was never the type to sit in a cave while everyone fights a war, few Main characters are. 
The risk of him getting captured, if he the alliance loses that will might happen anyway, also Madara took Kin and Gins chakra as a replacement.

Now If this probably wont convince those who have made up their mind but what about this, is Naruto really more selfish than Madara a man that is trying to take over the world by putting everyone in an illusion? As Madara described it he want to become whole.

What about Oro who thought he could live forever, learn all just and rule the world?
What about Nagato who seriously thought he was a god, and thought his pain gave him the right to try and Nuke countries for his peace.

Naruto may come of as brash and annoying, causing a lot of people to dislike him, I even made a thread explaining why everyone would hate him for his actions, successful or not. 
But to say that Naruto, who wants to save the world has more of an Ego and is more selfish than characters that try control/destroy the entire world is a bit much.


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## zantha (Jun 27, 2011)

sasuke is by far the most selfish, egotistical character. 
i don't understand naruto being either. he beats himself up for not being strong enough. it's not that he believes in himself really. its that other people he cares about and respects, believe in him that make him think he can change things. and also i cant really think of anything that he had done that had been due to a souley selfish reason. he wants to save sasuke to help sasuke, and for sakura. himsetl too, buts its not only about what he wants.


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## insane111 (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> Naruto is who he is because of how reacts in these types of situations.



I was under the impression that he had matured to the level of not doing things like that any more, that's why it's disappointing to me. In the Pain fight, he went in with knowledge and prep, so I was expecting him to use his head here. It's fine if he's on the front lines, I just think that he should be part of one of the teams and following some kind of actual strategy given by Shikaku, instead of just going in completely blind.


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## Wraith_Madara (Jun 27, 2011)

I was gonna say Sasuke being the most selfish for sure, but then I got the impression that he doesn't even care that much for himself either. If he succeeds, he succeeds, and if someone is stronger than him and tries to stop him, he'll fight him, take whatever damage the opponent might dish out, and win or die.

Maybe that makes him more of "ego.."


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## Kiss (Jun 27, 2011)

Orochimaru.

Naruto acts selfish sometimes too.


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## Taijukage (Jun 27, 2011)

If you say Sakura, you haven't read the manga...


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## Kael Hyun (Jun 27, 2011)

To the OP Sasuke by far.

To those saying Naruto has a 'messiah complex' What the fuck is he supposed to think when he was told he is the Savior and shall pretty much lead the people into a new age of peace? Plus he already has the credentials of saving murderers and Lunatics so really it's not him being selfish, it's just Naruto being Naruto!


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## Griever (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> I never said Naruto was without fault. Sure he's rash, impetuous, rude, bratty, and yes even selfish at times. That doesn't mean he wasn't right to act in the manner that he did. People were and are dying, people that are close to him, and people that he can help with his abilities.



He wasn't 'right' to act in that way. It is understandable why he acted in this way, that however, doesn't make it right.
He risks too much with everything he *knows* is on the line, which is one of the main reasons i can't see him as being any form of leader yet alone the savior of the world. It seems to me he puts his own desire above all else and just hopes everything will all work out in the end. 



> That's debatable. Also, having Naruto act in the manner you suggested would go against his established character. He isn't his father, Naruto is who he is because of how reacts in these types of situations.



To me that would just be him growing up rather than remaining a child.


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## Zakgrin (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto is neither being selfish or egotistical, especially after what we learned form the last chapter. Minato passed on everything he had to Naruto in hopes that he could save the world, he has to do it, no one else, therefore he isn't being egotistical by disobeying the others, he is merely doing what he has to. Sasuke on the other hand is probably almost the exact opposite. He thinks that just because his older brother was mistreated his entire life that he can strike back at the world for it. I don't know about you but in the ninja world that probably happens a lot, and we never hear anyone else complaining about it. Sasuke is easily the most selfish character in the manga, but that's just my opinion.


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## Epyon (Jun 27, 2011)

It's close, a lot of good candidates here. But evil doesn't neccesiraly mean selfish. Nagato, Danzo, Naruto and Madara concern themselves plenty with the people around them. Sasuke was capable of doing selfless acts until the kage Conference, and still acts because of how his family/brother suffered or how others saw rather then his own desires neccesaily, no matter how wrong he is. Selfishness is a big problem Sasuke has, but not his biggest. 

Orochimaru, Kabuto, Deidara and Kakuzu are far worse. Their whole world revolves around their whole goals. But again, Orochimaru at some point still wanted minor good things for Tsunade and deep down inside didn't want to end the Sandaime's life. Or he seemed pretty reluctant to Kabuto.

Kabuto had his era of devotion to someone else. 

So yeah Deidara and Kakuzu, not the most evil characters possible, but I think the most selfcentered ones, certainly. But Kakuzu at least ones was a dutiful ninja to his own village. Deidara wins, I think. He's likable enough but he's never done anything for anyone but himself. Even his desires to take out the Uchiha stems from wanting his art to be the best.


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## Santoryu (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto, but he is the main character so he can get away with it.


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## mayumi (Jun 27, 2011)

despite no matter how many people claim its naruto, sasuke will always lead this poll


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## Helios (Jun 27, 2011)

WraithX959 said:


> You're simply rationalizing, I can do that as well. It may very well be the case that Naruto saving Sasuke is essential to him fulling his role as the Destined Child. There is a very significant chance that whoever or whatever the final big bad is, Naruto & Sasuke will likely have to team-up to stop it. So, Naruto could just as easily doom the world by not trying to save Sasuke.



Indeed but Naruto is not aware of such a thing therefore the quality of his intentions is different and the material you use includes two levels of successive hypothetic scenarios.My version although hypothetical as well remains within the context of Naruto's motivations.In fact he has already said that if he wont be able to redeem Sasuke,this would mean that he is unworthy of saving the whole world :

*"*If you attack Konoha, I will have to fight you… So save up your hatred and take it all on me, I'm the only one who can take it! It's the only thing I can do! *I will shoulder your hatred and die with you!* Because I'm your friend*"* 
The great frog could not read the outcome of the battle which makes Naruto's decision to insist on the issue even more selfish.

So the ninja world itself depends on the outcome of a child's whim.


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## AeolusXII (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto doesn't have a "complex", even if that is your failure argument, Sauce has been a selfish douche throughout most of the manga. Naruto hasn't been the "messiah" for nearly as long.

Sauce is also the most egotistical--not completely his fault either, since everyone has been stroking his ego (nuts) since the beginning of the manga.

Not only egotistical, but failing while being egotistical. I mean acting all big and bad, then getting slapped down by Lee, Gaara, Naruto, Bee, A. At least Pein had an excuse for his huge ego, Sauce rarely managed to back his up.


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## Forlong (Jun 27, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> You don't know who Oscar Wilde is?
> 
> Have you never read _The Picture of Dorian Gray_?


Sorry, I don't recall even hearing about that.  I even looked at his wikipedia page and didn't find anything I remembered.  Maybe I did read some of his work and just forgot.

I did get some insight on why he had the views that he did.  He was socialist and write a book about how capitalism stifles progress.  Of course, he wrote that _before_ Capitalist America kicked the shit out of the Spanish Armada.  His opinion might have changed after hearing about that, but I'm not sure.



Helios said:


> Naruto has made everyone believe that he is the savior of the world,he is carrying the hopes of many.He has also stated that he intends to help Sasuke or die trying.This is an antithetic structure because in his mind the world is equal to a mad man.Simply if he fails to redeem Sasuke, Naruto will deprive the world from its "savior".Now how selfish is that?
> 
> Of course the issue can easily be solved if the author decides ,and it seems like it,to change the flow of the story by considering a different final villain.



Hold on.  I think it's time to break out a dictionary, because you really need one.

self?ish
[*sel*-fish] ?adjective
1. Devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. Characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: _selfish motives._

Naruto does have a messiah complex, but it's because he thinks of anyone _but_ himself.  He's had girls throwing themselves at him, but he's not interested because he has to make the world a better place.  You can call it naive and idiotic, but it's not in any way selfish.

I mean, that's like looking at this pic and saying:

Look at that Jesus guy!  Dying on that cross and looking down on us.  How pompous.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 27, 2011)

*The Uzumaki's!*


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## RaitonCloud (Jun 27, 2011)

*Naruto's "huge ego" is balanced by his complete selflessness*

Naruto almost mimics Jiraiya type heroism. The dopey look at me stance, followed by failure but serious business when it counts.

People in the other thread saying he has a god complex... He wants to save his friends... Whats wrong with wanting to use your power to save your friends and stop a war? Better to aim high then low. "Get busy living or get busy dying".

And i dont understand where all this critisism is coming from, Naruto has been egotistical from day one. He was selfish because all he had was himself now he has something he wants to protect it and doesn't give a darn about himself..

People comparing him to Sasuke who has the biggest ego in the manga along with being the most selfish. Everything he does is for himself and no one else. ITs all look at me me me and my revenge. Dont like it? I dont really mind being madara's pawn really. I'm so deluded.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto *is the savior* so i don't know how it's huge ego for telling it like it is


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## Santoryu (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto has been trying to get Sasuke to return for ages now, despite recieving the cold shoulder many times. Basically endangering the lives of others. So yeah, he is being selfish in order to save his "friend" from the darkness.

pushing back an entire mountain

And what the hell^.....


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 27, 2011)

erivar said:


> I already realized that Konoha is a village filled with douchebags who treat the kid of the guy who saved their lives and the lives of the future generation like vermin. Stupid adults who neglect orphans. A godfather who doesn't do his job until the kid is 13 but only after the kid had to seduce him by turning into a naked bimbo. It makes sense they thought a kid shouldn't know his biological parents like every other kid because: "he will become a bragging asshole?" because Konohamaru, Tsunade and Asuma turned out to be bragging assholes.
> 
> Or they kept the truth from him because they were trying to protect him because Konoha is such a special village with such a special tailed beast that Naruto was the only Jinchuuriki anybody will ever care about kidnapping. It was made even more apparent because not even the famed strongest ninja, the Hokage and lower ninja's could protect Naruto so the need for secrecy was of the highest priority.



It's not that they were douchebags.

It was the fear. As Yoda said, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate...leads to suffering."

They were scared. Too scared to see past the biju to the person. And apparently misinformed. There appears to be a belief all over the world that there is no difference between the biju and the jinchuriki. If you consider jinchuriki like Gaara from age six to twelve you can somewhat understand the conclusion.

Interesting that you sarcastically point out Konohamaru, Tsunade, and Asuma. Konohamaru did suffer under his lineage, he felt that he was drowning under the, not expectation though I'm sure that played a part, but the fame of it. He lost his own identity in being "The Hokage's Grandson" rather than being Konohamaru for his own sake. Unacknowledged for just being him. Tsunade by contrast never suffered as a result of her family, but instead forsook her family legacy. She gave up on the dream, despite her bloodline and the dreams of her most precious loved ones, she suffered because she didn't believe she could carry it anymore. Though we don't know the nature of Asuma's conflict with Hiruzen it was enough to get him to leave the village.

And let's be honest, Naruto was a huge loudmouth. It's bad enough that Kumo, Orochimaru, and Akatsuki knew who he was and likely where the majority of the time, but if Naruto got to add "Son of The Yellow Flash" to his introductions it would've generated trouble.

Additionally it was essential to him not knowing or worrying about the Kyubi. If he was told who his parents were, or even just his father, and then how he died, he would've put it together...eventually.

As for kidnapping Naruto that was a huge risk. Lest you forget Kumogakure is infamous for their child trafficking operations, trying to kidnap Uzumaki Kushina and Hyuga Hinata.

And let's remember we're discussing the good scenario. If Danzo had had his way then Naruto would've probably been on lockdown like Kimimaro. That would've been healthy.


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## RaitonCloud (Jun 27, 2011)

Saving your friend is the opposite of selfish.. sitting back and saying fuck it let him rampage killing loads of innocents.. Rather than saying what Naruto said that he will kill him.. Yeaaaah ok. 

Define save. In Sasuke's case it's death by naruto.


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## Santoryu (Jun 27, 2011)

It doesn't matter for whose benefit he's acting upon, all that matter is that he act on what he thinks it's best. And that makes him selfish. He aims to drag Sasuke back to Konoha and then magically they'll be one big happy family again? Sasuke doesn't want to be saved so Naruto is trying to save him against his will, that's selfish. 

Not saying thats a bad thing (him wanting to save his so called friend against his will) but it's selfish nontheless.


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## Soca (Jun 27, 2011)

everything he's doing is selfish not to mention the fact that he's going against everyone word and doing things as he seems fit, it bugs me even more that even though he has the power kishi still ignore s the fact that he's a genin so he should step down and listen to what people are telling him. fuck is it me or does it seem this topic comes up every bloody week, something definitely needs to change


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## kzk (Jun 27, 2011)

Zor0 said:


> It doesn't matter for whose benefit he's acting upon, all that matter is that he act on what he thinks it's best. And that makes him selfish. He aims to drag Sasuke back to Konoha and then magically they'll be one big happy family again? Sasuke doesn't want to be saved so Naruto is trying to save him against his will, that's selfish.
> 
> Not saying thats a bad thing (him wanting to save his so called friend against his will) but it's selfish nontheless.



Not listening to others has nothing to do with being selfish. Naruto is doing what he thinks is best for those that matter to him, all of them, even at his own expense. It may be naive and childish, bullheaded and stupid, but it isn't selfish.

It's only arrogance if he can't back it up.


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## Soca (Jun 27, 2011)

kzk said:


> Not listening to others has nothing to do with being selfish. *Naruto is doing what he thinks is best for those that matter to him, all of them, even at his own expense. It may be naive and childish, bullheaded and stupid, but it isn't selfish.*
> 
> It's only arrogance if he can't back it up.



And this is what kills me the most in this story, narutos intelligence comes off as greater than everyone' logic and common sense. EVERYONE in this war wants to protect their friend n such but you don't see them disobeying orders and acting like the way he does. It's ridiculous


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## Arsecynic (Jun 27, 2011)

He needs to face the fact that he has superiors and he shouldn't be able to do whatever the fuck he wants (Tsunade has no spine). It's a pity the J-man isn't here to slap him back into place.


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## Soca (Jun 27, 2011)

Jord@n said:


> He needs to face the fact that he has superiors and he shouldn't be able to do whatever the fuck he wants (Tsunade has no spine). It's a pity the J-man isn't here to slap him back into place.



fucking quote for the win 

repped*


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## Jihad Uzamaki (Jun 27, 2011)

Jord@n said:


> He needs to face the fact that he has superiors and he shouldn't be able to do whatever the fuck he wants (Tsunade has no spine). It's a pity the J-man isn't here to slap him back into place.



Jiraya DID tell him to forget about Sasuke. After Sasuke put him in the hospital matter of fact.

And he promptly told him to go fuck himself. 

And for the record, Naruto is Selfish, but only as it concerns his friends-- He want to protect them at all costs, and this is consistent with his upbringing and characterization the ENTIRE manga. Kishi hasn't changed how Naruto is acting, its moreso the characters around Naruto are changing their actions in that they care about Naruto now. 

I see people talking about Genin rank or superiors like that even matters anymore-- when was the LAST time someone called Naruto a Genin, or the ranking system mattered? 

I guess the point is that, in typical Shonen fashion, the main character has a belief in his own power to protect what he loves. Goku, Kenshin, and countless others would rather fight the battle than let others do the work. 

Its what it is. 


JihaD


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## Sera (Jun 27, 2011)

Ego? I didn't think he had an ego.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Epyon said:


> *Orochimaru, Kabuto, Deidara and Kakuzu are far worse. Their whole world revolves around their whole goals.* But again, Orochimaru at some point still wanted minor good things for Tsunade and deep down inside didn't want to end the Sandaime's life. Or he seemed pretty reluctant to Kabuto.


I think Madara is worse than those four (except Oro) considering he wants the world to revolve around him and bend to his will. He's the typical selfish greedy villain who wants it all in the palm of his hand.


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## TheDragonMistress (Jun 27, 2011)

_Orochimaru I guess. He used so many people in his experiments for his own selfish interests._


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## Arsecynic (Jun 27, 2011)

Jihad Uzamaki said:


> Jiraya DID tell him to forget about Sasuke. After Sasuke put him in the hospital matter of fact.
> 
> And he promptly told him to go fuck himself.
> 
> And for the record, Naruto is Selfish, but only as it concerns his friends-- He want to protect them at all costs, and this is consistent with his upbringing and characterization the ENTIRE manga. Kishi hasn't changed how Naruto is acting, its moreso the characters around Naruto are changing their actions in that they care about Naruto now.



Jiraiya would have stopped him after he came out with this bullshit about him and Sasuke both dying. Jiraiya wouldn't let him throw his life away. 

And he needs to learn his place. Constantly being allowed to chase after a missing nin, ignoring the ninja alliance's *supreme commander*, not listening to his sensei (Jiraiya spent too long chasing after Orochimaru himself, he made the exact same mistake as Naruto, so he knows what he's talking about, yet Naruto still ignores his advice), if anyone else did the shit that he did, they'd be put in jail. One rule for one, another for others ehh? 

I am actually a Naruto fan, but his behavior after the Kage arc has been annoying to say the least. Don't get me wrong, it's actually to the alliances benifit that he is on the battlefield (because they're getting destroyed atm), but the fact that he has no actual reason for his behaviour is annoying. When the Kyuubi spoke to him whilst he was fleeing from bij training with Bee, the Kyuubi actually spoke 100% truth, and Naruto had no answer for it (just like with Nagato, no answer). 

From my eyes it doesn't come across as amazing self belief, it comes across as shitty writing from Kishi. No one has that kind of self belief (and ignorance). If he was a young child (I'm talking single digits here) I'd understand, but he should be old enough to atleast consider what other people are saying. 

For me, if there's not even a bit of self doubt, it's unrealistic considering his circumstances. If Naruto would have overcame his self doubt, the whole arrogance/ego thing wouldn't be a problem, his attitude would be more realistic and I wouldn't be complaining. But the fact he completely ignoring whatever anyone else is saying is just plain stupid. I hope "dark naruto" makes a return.


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## 24 Hours (Jun 27, 2011)

I am glad that most of the votes go to King Sasuke sama, selfish villain = good villain, therefore, God Emperor Sasuke-sama-omg is the best villain in the manga according to the fellow NFers  
And Narutoast is worst progantoadists (however you spell it), cos hes a non villain yet he got the second most vote, shows how pathetic he is


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## Cocodrilito (Jun 27, 2011)

Didnt Naruto said "I AM THE SAVIOR"? There is your answer OP.

A thing is saying "I will save my friends" "I will stop the war" and another is saying "I am the savior".


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## Artful Lurker (Jun 27, 2011)

Danzooooo


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 27, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Hold on.  I think it's time to break out a dictionary, because you really need one.
> 
> self?ish
> [*sel*-fish] ?adjective
> ...



 ... All your arguments are just terrible,bad troll is bad.


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## Juuuuubi (Jun 27, 2011)

Sasuke, selfish whiner that needs to grow a pair.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 27, 2011)

Jord@n said:


> And he needs to learn his place. Constantly being allowed to chase after a missing nin, ignoring the ninja alliance's *supreme commander*, not listening to his sensei (Jiraiya spent too long chasing after Orochimaru himself, he made the exact same mistake as Naruto, so he knows what he's talking about, yet Naruto still ignores his advice),



Jiraiya never ordered Naruto to abandon Sasuke it was just mere advice Naruto decided not to follow the advice thats entirely upto him

As for him not listening to the Supreme Commanders orders Naruto already explained his honour system would not allow him to abandon his friends and comrades when he believes he can save lives the fact is Madara has wiped out over half of the Alliance's army and even Shikaku came to the realisation that there is a tactical need for Naruto on the battlefield



> if anyone else did the shit that he did, they'd be put in jail. One rule for one, another for others ehh?



You mean like Shikamaru who ignored a direct order from Tsunade


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## Soca (Jun 27, 2011)

stockholmsyndrome said:


> You mean like Shikamaru who ignored a direct order from Tsunade



That one incident doesn't compare to the many naruto has try again


----------



## Daylight (Jun 27, 2011)

Those who break the rules are scum; but those who abandon their friends are worse than scum.


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## Marsala (Jun 27, 2011)

Does it count as a Messiah complex if you actually ARE the Messiah?


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## Kyu (Jun 27, 2011)

Poo Bear said:


> Teenager with life issues.



Its More than that


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## KyuubiFan (Jun 27, 2011)

Hard to decide, really. 

Oro and Kabuto just want knowledge, although they will do anything to do that. What they'd do if they learn all is a mystery to me, I mean what's the point? Learning for the sake of knowledge?

Danzo is quite selfish, throwing in Tsunade and basically the village to gain power. However, he was one of the few who knew about Madara and the threat he presented so he may have wanted power to stop him.

Nagato is a bit loony but he has something to back it up: he had a plan and the way to archieve it.

Sasuke, now he is a strange case. Why would killing Konoha civilians make Itachi happy? But i think he's simply an idiot, not selfish.

Madara: wants to control the whole world to bring peace to it. He is selfish all right, but only second to

*Naruto.* Yes. The winner. "Imma gonna change the world and they are going to _like_ it! Am I clear bitches?" Rushes out to the battlefield to save his friends despite told that that's the last thing they want. Is being an asshole to basically everyone. When confronted about how on Earth does he plan to stop a raving psychotic-lunatic murderer or how does he want to take all hate in the world, his answer is a seal and a speech about "I haven't got the slightest idea but it's gonna work, belive it! Just fucking BELIVE IT!"


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## KyuubiFan (Jun 27, 2011)

Yes, because he hasn't got the slightest idea how to "change the ninja world".


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## Kazuya Mishima (Jun 27, 2011)

Sauce easily on both counts, no one in this manga is even near his level.


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## Forlong (Jun 27, 2011)

Dreadlock Luffy said:


> Danzooooo


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRS54FrDEuY[/YOUTUBE]





Necessary Evil said:


> ... All your arguments are just terrible,bad troll is bad.


I just pointed out how Naruto is clearly in no way selfish because of his messiah complex.  Yeah, pointing out what should be frickin' obvious is really a poorly constructed argument.  Naruto is doing what he's doing because he wants a better life for everyone else, not himself.  You could call that egotistical (because it is), but not selfish.  Selfishness and egotism don't go hand in hand.  They are completely different things.  Naruto is egotistic _because_ he's so *selfless*.  He doesn't think anyone should have to suffer for his sake, so he keeps going off half-cocked.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 27, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> That one incident doesn't compare to the many naruto has try again



How so your trying to disregard another Characters insubordination Shikamaru has shown an equal level of insubordination towards his superiors as Naruto at least Naruto was acting on good intention instead of Shikamaru's selfish reasons of revenge.


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## Godric (Jun 27, 2011)

stockholmsyndrome said:


> his honour system would not allow him to abandon his friends and comrades when he believes he can save lives



and this is precisely the issue at hand sir, the faster you realize this the quicker you'll understand where we are coming from


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## Reddan (Jun 27, 2011)

The most selfish characters I think were Orochimaru or Deidara. They only cared about themselves and were willing to hurt and destroy anything that got in their way. They would happily kill thousands just to advance one small step in their goal. They never cared about a greater goal only satisfying their own desires.

Kabuto has inherited Orochimaru's will,  but I think a part of him once to fulfil Orochimaru's goal for his masters sake. Hence why he is not up with the first two.
Kakuzu is right up there too only caring about lining his own pockets.


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## Haloman (Jun 27, 2011)

So seeing Sasuke leading the poll isn't that surprising. I don't think he's the most selfish or egotistical (certainly up there), but I can understand him having as many votes as he does.

Naruto, though? I mean, seriously? Did all of you forget how he let Karui beat him up in the hopes of saving Sasuke? Do you remember him begging the Raikage for the sake of his friend? Do you remember him calling Sakura on her confession of love? He could have said he loved her, too, and gone on to live a happy life with Sakura at Sasuke's expense. I mean, I can go on and on here. Naruto is easily one of the most giving characters in the manga. And his fierce determination in himself is not the same as being egotistical.

Personally, I think Orochimaru is the most selfish and egotistical. He should be the runaway leader in this poll. Every action he ever took was for his own benefit or amusement. Sasuke, at least, has taken action for people other than himself (saving Naruto, Sakura, etc). And while lately, Sasuke's actions are largely to make himself feel better, they're also partly for those people who died, so they're not 100% selfish.

So yeah. It seems like people are just getting on the Sasuke or Naruto fanboats and trying to sink the other. But Oro is the clear winner to me.


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## Haloman (Jun 27, 2011)

Zor0 said:


> It doesn't matter for whose benefit he's acting upon, all that matter is that he act on what he thinks it's best. And that makes him selfish. He aims to drag Sasuke back to Konoha and then magically they'll be one big happy family again? Sasuke doesn't want to be saved so Naruto is trying to save him against his will, that's selfish.
> 
> Not saying thats a bad thing (him wanting to save his so called friend against his will) but it's selfish nontheless.





RaitonCloud said:


> Saving your friend is the opposite of selfish.. sitting back and saying fuck it let him rampage killing loads of innocents.. Rather than saying what Naruto said that he will kill him.. Yeaaaah ok.
> 
> Define save. In Sasuke's case it's death by naruto.



You're both mistaken. To be selfish means to be looking out for one's self-interest. Simply doing what is perceived as a good act doesn't mean the act wasn't selfish. If any of you are familiar with Dr. Horrible, Captain Hammer does good for selfish reasons. He wants to make himself feel good. So that's why his good acts are selfish.

Conversely, Zor0, simply doing what you think is best does not make you selfish either. Again, being selfish means to be looking out for one's self-interest. Naruto believes that revenge will lead Sasuke down a road that will cause him a more miserable life or possibly even death. He's concerned entirely with Sasuke's interests. What he believes will be best for Sasuke. He might be *wrong* about it, but he's not selfish because of it.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Jun 27, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Naruto.
> 
> Fucking messiah complex. Uses force to get what he wants. Thinks only of his own self-imposed duties.
> 
> /thread



I put Madara, but then I read Nikushimi's post and changed my mind. Fuck.


----------



## xXHancockXx (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto of course!
He has become more and more annoying and unsympathetic to me during the last few chapters.
He is always acting like he is the only one, who can defeat the enemies. There are so many people, who believes in him and his strength but on the other hand he does not believe in them and is acting selfish.
In the last chapter Tsunade wanted to fight against the Raikage, when he intented to attack Naruto once again. But instead of trusting in her strength as the Hokage, he got away from her because he does not want the "old granny" to get involved.
In my opinion it is very disppointing, that Naruto has become such a self-centered person.


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## Haloman (Jun 27, 2011)

xXHancockXx said:


> In the last chapter Tsunade wanted to fight against the Raikage, when he intented to attack Naruto once again. But instead of trusting in her strength as the Hokage, he got away from her because he does not want the "old granny" to get involved.
> In my opinion it is very disppointing, that Naruto has become such a self-centered person.



You know those are two different things, right?

He doesn't believe in her ability to defend herself. This is correct. That isn't a selfish act, though. He simply has little faith in others then? If this were a poll about "who reciprocates the least faith?" I could understand your answer, but really, you're grading his apples based on the texture of his oranges.

The fact that he was concerned with her well-being, however, is a *selfless* act.


----------



## Mike S (Jun 27, 2011)

Hidan comes to mind


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## xXHancockXx (Jun 27, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> You know those are two different things, right?
> 
> He doesn't believe in her ability to defend herself. This is correct. That isn't a selfish act, though. He simply has little faith in others then? If this were a poll about "who reciprocates the least faith?" I could understand your answer, but really, you're grading his apples based on the texture of his oranges.
> 
> The fact that he was concerned with her well-being, however, is a *selfless* act.



Well, maybe this topic can be considered in many aspects and it is always hard to agree on each other. And perhaps I did not expressed my argument with the right words. Of course it was selfless getting away to protect her, but it was egoistical to think, that she?s that weak, being not able to fight on her own and always has to be protected by him. Just because he gained new power, he think?s that he ist that strong and being the savior and so on...this is in fact just annoying!


----------



## Soca (Jun 27, 2011)

Roronoa Z?Я? said:


> Hidan comes to mind



No kakazu does lol money = everything


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 27, 2011)

Godric said:


> and this is precisely the issue at hand sir, the faster you realize this the quicker you'll understand where we are coming from



And what is the problem with it all Shinobi are bound by there own ideals, morals and personal honour you can't seperate them from it or expect them to.


----------



## Reddan (Jun 27, 2011)

Roronoa Z?Я? said:


> Hidan comes to mind



Hidan obviously liked to kill and was very bloodthirsty, but he did things he did not like, because his religion required it. He made sure he said all the prayers and completed the ceremonies to the end. So there were times he put something else above himself, even if it still led to him doing evil.

Deidara and Orochimaru never put anything above their own goals. Kakuzu too. Madara is a complicated character and we need to know why he has such a strong God complex, before I place him at the top of the pile. Sasori was another very selfish individual, who nearly always did things only to please himself.


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## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 27, 2011)

Sasuke by a fucking landslide.


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## Haloman (Jun 27, 2011)

xXHancockXx said:


> Well, maybe this topic can be considered in many aspects and it is always hard to agree on each other. And perhaps I did not expressed my argument with the right words. Of course it was selfless getting away to protect her, but it was egoistical to think, that she?s that weak, being not able to fight on her own and always has to be protected by him. Just because he gained new power, he think?s that he ist that strong and being the savior and so on...this is in fact just annoying!



Again, I know what you're saying. His lack of faith in others' abilities (whether justified or not) is a bit annoying. But that's not being egotistical. Being egotistical means to be boastful and praising one's self. Naruto doesn't do that. If anything, he's always been saying how he's stupid and worthless he is.

The Falls of Truth bit was about that, and how he decided to have faith in himself to be the person that everyone else believes him to be. It's not egotistical or selfish.


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## BXisAWOL (Jun 27, 2011)

No manga is perfect.


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## iGoku (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto has been selfish at times, but he is a good friend..


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## iGoku (Jun 27, 2011)

Sasuke/Naruto/Oroichimaru


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## Darking Rayleigh (Jun 27, 2011)

Orochimaru.


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## AeroNin (Jun 27, 2011)

*UNDERDOG vs DESTINY*

Is it me or is anyone else pissed off that at the beginning of this manga we are led to believe that ANYONE could become great. Even against the odds, with hard work you can achieve greatness. Even if you're the underdog

Now, this manga is all about destiny which contradicts everything that this manga was based on.

Screw you Kishi


----------



## Kirin (Jun 27, 2011)

Most of the villains actually, it's just that Sasuke and Madara get more focus. 

I think Naruto is more like a narcissist imo.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (Jun 27, 2011)

AeroNin said:


> Is it me or is anyone else pissed off that at the beginning of this manga we are led to believe that ANYONE could become great. *Even against the odds, with hard work you can achieve greatness. Even if you're the underdog*
> 
> Now, this manga is all about destiny which contradicts everything that this manga was based on.
> 
> Screw you Kishi



You know now that I think about it I'm not sure if the manga ever actually supported this notion. Yes Naruto was an underdog ,but the fact that he had the ninetails in him made him special. Thats why his victory over Neji was hollow. He didnt beat someone naturally gifted through hard work, so he never really proved anything. If it had been Lee that beat Neji than it would have meant alot more because Lee's skills were truly nothing but the result of hard work. But what happened when he fought an elite like Gaara? He was defeated.


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## Judecious (Jun 27, 2011)

You can still become great with hard-work


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## Naruku (Jun 27, 2011)

nardo. "i will save the world!"  "i will change the hyuuga" 

it gets old.

oh yeah, sakra.


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## navy (Jun 27, 2011)

The fact that Sasuke copied Lee's taijutsu with the sharingan showed that this was bullshit in part 1.


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## Skaddix (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah and he only had to train for what like a month or two in order for his body to compensate.


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## navy (Jun 27, 2011)

Skaddix said:


> Yeah and he only had to train for what like a month or two in order for his body to compensate.



You think he actually trained? 

Just like he trained the curse seal, Mangekyo sharingan, and Orochimaru's drugs right?

Not to mention Lee had to train for* years*.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (Jun 27, 2011)

Judecious said:


> You can still become great with hard-work


I guess it depends on how you define great. The bigger question though is one of destiny vs underdog. Can a regular joe smoe become an elite without being naturally gifted or being a destined child? Lee posed this question in part one and so far the answer is no. You can become really good like lee and gai ,but you'll never match Sasuke, Neji, or the destined Naruto.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (Jun 27, 2011)

navy said:


> You think he actually trained?
> 
> Just like he trained the curse seal, Mangekyo sharingan, and Orochimaru's drugs right?



Well yes actually seeing as how each of those things required some degree of practice (except for the drugs which he was never confirmed to have taken). And anyways Sasuke didn't even have any of that stuff back then


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## Skaddix (Jun 27, 2011)

Exactly the first question to every ninja is a peak at their genealogy.


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## eyeknockout (Jun 27, 2011)

I never really believed this in the beginning. Every single ninja who had potential or was extremely powerful was because of their teachers or heritage. first hokage was great because he was a descendant of rikudo sennin, same for 2nd hokage. 3rd hokage was taught by them, jiraiya was taught by the 3rd, minato was taught by jiraiya, kakashi was taught by minato and sasuke was born with sharingan, naruto had the nine tails power and lee was copied fast even though he took years to develop his skills. the manga revolves solely on people's important destiny once they are born in the hands of greatness.


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## Nic (Jun 27, 2011)

Nagato and Madara win this hands down. lol


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## navy (Jun 27, 2011)

Not to mention Naruto received the nine tailed fox from his dad...so if anything he was never really an underdog and it was his "destiny" the whole time. 

Although one could question whether anything really is fate, and choices decide your life's story.


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## Turrin (Jun 27, 2011)

People don't seem to understand that Naruto is the destined child because of Hard Work.


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## navy (Jun 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> People don't seem to understand that Naruto is the destined child because of Hard Work.



That's not why he got the kyuubi 

But yes this is still somewhat true.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (Jun 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> People don't seem to understand that Naruto is the destined child because of Hard Work.



So are you saying that anyone who worked hard enough could have been the destined child? I cant really think of anything in the manga that supports this. And doesn't that go against the very definition of destiny?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 27, 2011)

It would've been more meaningful had Nagato been the destined child...Naruto didn't really need it and it just seemed like some poor, last-minute attempt to make up for his poor development and fading relevancy to his own story.


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## Skeith (Jun 27, 2011)

Didn't I say this not long ago?



Skeith said:


> Always say this: *Why change a destiny you want to happen?*
> 
> Part 1: You are a failure and won't be a great ninja or Hokage.
> 
> ...


----------



## Raiden (Jun 27, 2011)

For Naruto...I think saying that he has a messiah complex is a bit of an overstatement. The kid actually has been oen of the most effective ninjas in stopping the antagonists...he father also flatly stated that Naruto was purposely given power to defeat Madara. So it's no surprise that he believes this is what his role in society is.

I suppose he's up there. But Sasuke takes the cake. He killed someone who saved his life mutliple times and thinks himself better  than other people.


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## sheshyo (Jun 27, 2011)

Sasuke and Naruto have nothing on...

Pain: "That's right…Ive grown from a person into a god"
Danzou: "I… am the only one who can change this world"



Raiden said:


> But Sasuke takes the cake. He killed someone  who saved his life mutliple times and thinks himself better  than other  people.



I don't recall Sasuke ever thinking or claiming himself as better person than others in such a context.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 27, 2011)

Raiden said:


> For Naruto...I think saying that he has a messiah complex is a bit of an overstatement. The kid actually has been oen of the most effective ninjas in stopping the antagonists...he father also flatly stated that Naruto was purposely given power to defeat Madara. So it's no surprise that he believes this is what his role in society is.
> 
> I suppose he's up there. But Sasuke takes the cake. He killed someone who saved his life mutliple times and *thinks himself better  than other people.*



Can you blame him for that though? He was brought up in the head house of the Uchiha clan and he was practically royalty at the academy. Kakashi chose him for private lessons. Itachi finally dies and he finds out the truth behind his survival. He knows that there are still at least 2 people that still love him. Madara's pining for him. He has constantly been raised on this pedestal. He can't help but look down on people.


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## SaiST (Jun 27, 2011)

_"I guess Sandaime never told you. Hiruzen-sama wanted as little information about the Kyuubi as possible out in the public. If anyone knew you were my son, you'd have been in constant danger."_

I imagine people like Kakashi and Tsunade withheld that information for the same reasons, choosing to inform him when he had grown old and strong enough.


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## Whiteportion (Jun 27, 2011)

Haha, poor Lee, has been getting trollfucked in the ass to be honest.


----------



## Serenity Fever (Jun 27, 2011)

Kirin said:


> I think Naruto is more like a narcissist imo.


How is Naruto in love with himself?


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jun 27, 2011)

I haven't seen much selfless deeds in part 2 from Naruto. It been about him forcing Sasuke to be someone he's not. It's admirable to try and help a friend, but if that "friend" doesn't want to be saved and had try to kill you on more than one occasion you should give up. If someone wants to rot in hell then let them.


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## CrazyAries (Jun 27, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> You know now that I think about it I'm not sure if the manga ever actually supported this notion. Yes Naruto was an underdog ,but the fact that he had the ninetails in him made him special.



Yep.  If was clear that Naruto was destined for greatness and the fact that he had the kyuubi blows the notion that he was a true underdog out of the water.  He was given a tremendous amount of power right after his birth.  The problem that Naruto had was a lack of recognition and a sensei or parental figure that focused on him.


----------



## Aeiou (Jun 27, 2011)

Last of the Yakushi said:


> Preskip Kabuto hears your pain.





AeroNin said:


> *with hard work you can achieve greatness*



Oh yeah, injecting oneself and waiting for results was hard work for Kabuto.


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jun 27, 2011)

IMO Lee is a much more admirable character then Naruto. He works just as hard (if not, harder) and has no greater destiny or fate. Not that we know of anyway.


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## Skaddix (Jun 27, 2011)

Sure but he will never stand near the top of the pyramid.


----------



## Mintaka (Jun 27, 2011)

> I know it was a  moment, but very genius indeed.


GENIUS!?

Are you kidding me?  That was bullshit.  Nothing more or less.


The worst part of it all?  The sharingan had gone out because sasuke was out of chakra.  Yet somehow he has just enough to genjutsu manda and summon/desummon  him.


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## Kirin (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto was destined to be the savior/prophecy child since the beginning of the story, the only difference on Part 1 was that he didn't know anything about it.


----------



## CrazyAries (Jun 27, 2011)

Naruto is not completely selfless.  Yes, I got that he wants to protect his friends.  That is admirable, but that is countered by his lack of trust that they can protect themselves and his refusal to accept their sacrifice.  (I would like to see if Shikaku's plan allows Naruto to work with others besides Killerbee, but I doubt it.)  Even though he truly wants to help Sasuke, Naruto still has personal reasons for doing so.  He wants Team 7 to laugh again and considers Sasuke his brother.  Naruto has been holding off the possibility that he will have to save Sasuke for the longest time and really had not considered it as a real option.  Recently, Naruto said that he would be willing to die with Sasuke, but is the former willing to live without the latter? Also, Naruto's statement to the Raikage is open to interpretation.   Naruto basically said that winning the war would be almost pointless if his friends all died.  I read that as him saying that his sorrow would trump victory.  What about the 40,000 nin who already died?   I think that it is fair to say that Naruto has the capacity to be both altruistic and selfish and that does not have to be a knock on his character.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 27, 2011)

SaVaGe609 said:


> IMO Lee is a much more admirable character then Naruto. He works just as hard (if not, harder) and has no greater destiny or fate. Not that we know of anyway.



And what does he have to show for it? Gaara trashed him. Sasuke outdid him. Neji's apparently still ahead of him.


----------



## AeroNin (Jun 27, 2011)

Kirin said:


> Naruto was destined to be the savior/prophecy child since the beginning of the story, the only difference on Part 1 was that he didn't know anything about it.



If kishi wanted to play this route, he would have foreshadowed it and not the underdog theme naruto had during the whole part 1. The kyuubi was suppose to make him the one that was to defy the odds, not be destined.


----------



## Crona (Jun 27, 2011)

I liked it better when he was the underdog..but I knew something was up for them to stick the Kyuubi inside Naruto.


----------



## KiddLaw92 (Jun 27, 2011)

Anyone can become great in the naruto world but great isn't the best or one of the best. it means elite jonin level in my opinion. There has to be something that allows someone to have an advantage, it could be a kekkai genkai, being a genius, having great teachers, secret technique's or something else. 

Naruto is going to be at the top of the world because he had great teachers, a bijuu inside him, being very talented and being a hard worker. It was lots of things that contributed to it and unfortunately for Rock Lee he will never reach the top because he's just not talented enough.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Jun 27, 2011)

You know what's funny? You honestly think there's someone strong enough that Naruto could respect, that has power over him? Killer-bee might be the closest right now, and even that's a strech.

Sorry guys, but Tsunade hasn't been able to overpower Naruto since Sage Mode. He actually saved her ass, legitimately, when he smashed the robotic Pein Body. Raikage can't even catch him now, and Killer-bee, as I stated earlier, might be the only one who can overpower him that's on the good side, and that's a strech considering that Naruto fucked over Pein with just Sage Mode. Now that Killer-bee can't even catch him if Naruto wanted (assuming Ai was faster than Bee), I don't think there's a single person on the side of good that's capable of really stopping Naruto if Naruto is determined.


----------



## Soca (Jun 27, 2011)

TheGreen1 said:


> You know what's funny? You honestly think there's someone strong enough that Naruto could respect, that has power over him? Killer-bee might be the closest right now, and even that's a strech.
> 
> Sorry guys, but Tsunade hasn't been able to overpower Naruto since Sage Mode. He actually saved her ass, legitimately, when he smashed the robotic Pein Body. Raikage can't even catch him now, and Killer-bee, as I stated earlier, might be the only one who can overpower him that's on the good side, and that's a strech considering that Naruto fucked over Pein with just Sage Mode. Now that Killer-bee can't even catch him if Naruto wanted (assuming Ai was faster than Bee), I don't think there's a single person on the side of good that's capable of really stopping Naruto if Naruto is determined.



Kishi is that you?! Why the fuck did you kill zabuza punk?


----------



## Haloman (Jun 27, 2011)

CrazyAries said:


> Naruto is not completely selfless.  Yes, I got that he wants to protect his friends.  That is admirable, but that is countered by his lack of trust that they can protect themselves and his refusal to accept their sacrifice.  (I would like to see if Shikaku's plan allows Naruto to work with others besides Killerbee, but I doubt it.)  Even though he truly wants to help Sasuke, Naruto still has personal reasons for doing so.  He wants Team 7 to laugh again and considers Sasuke his brother.  Naruto has been holding off the possibility that he will have to save Sasuke for the longest time and really had not considered it as a real option.  Recently, Naruto said that he would be willing to die with Sasuke, but is the former willing to live without the latter? Also, Naruto's statement to the Raikage is open to interpretation.   Naruto basically said that winning the war would be almost pointless if his friends all died.  I read that as him saying that his sorrow would trump victory.  What about the 40,000 nin who already died?   I think that it is fair to say that Naruto has the capacity to be both altruistic and selfish and that does not have to be a knock on his character.



This analysis is ridiculous.

Naruto: "I don't want my friends to die for my sake!"
You: "How selfish of you. Prioritizing their lives before your own."

His lack of faith (trust) in his friends' abilities is something else all together. Is it ego? No. He doesn't believe himself better than them. He just believes his friends to be weaker than their opponents.

I'm not saying Naruto isn't selfish in some aspects, but if you had to weigh the percentage of his actions that were done for selfish gains, you would be looking at less than 10% easily. To say Naruto is a selfish character based on such a small percentage is ridiculous.


----------



## CrazyAries (Jun 27, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> This analysis is ridiculous.
> 
> Naruto: "I don't want my friends to die for my sake!"
> You: "How selfish of you. Prioritizing their lives before your own."
> ...



And you took much of my post out of context.  I said that there was a mix of altruism and selfishness in Naruto's actions, but I never quantified any of it. I also said that it was honorable for him to place importance in the lives of his friends. He does work for the benefit of others, but going off the title of the thread, it disingenuous to say that none of it is for personal reasons.  Is that a knock on his character, per se? Not necessarily.  

Also, where did I say he was egotistical?  In the end, the Alliance will need his help and I have said that in various posts, but in the end, various shinobi will be pushed aside entirely. Naruto can help others, but they are not really being allowed to help him.  Their help amounts to bupkis.

Additionally, there is no importance given to those who have no name.  If there is to be peace, it will involve many nameless, faceless individuals.  , anyone?  That is not really Narutos fault, but that is the way that the manga is being written. It is what it is.

What say you?


----------



## Haloman (Jun 27, 2011)

Serenity Fever said:


> How is Naruto in love with himself?



I don't think people actually know what words mean. They just know that words are used in a negative context and then ascribe them to characters.

For instance, selfish and egotistical. Sasuke and Naruto would definitely not be leading this poll if those words were understood.


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## Aeiou (Jun 27, 2011)

At the people voting Naruto. Sasuke is, obviously.


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## gaiver (Jun 28, 2011)

i just want to interject and say that if jiraiya could have died with orochimaru years ago to stop him, he gladly would have. naruto and jiraiya have made the same choices in their lives.


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## PikaCheeka (Jun 28, 2011)

Naruto is being selfish when it comes to Sasuke because:

1) Sasuke does not want to be saved. There comes a point when you need to respect someone else's choices. People will make their own choices in life, and at some point or another, you need to respect that, regardless of what you consider those choices. There's a fine line between being a great friend who will go to the farthest extremes, and being a stalker who refuses to accept the fact that others are entitled to their own decisions.

2) Naruto is putting the lives of others at risk because of this. Not two hours after Naruto is groveling on the ground begging for Sasuke's life to be spared, Sasuke goes and murders someone. Was this the fault of Naruto's? Perhaps not, but he needs to learn to be realistic here.

3) The very idea of Naruto's desire to 'save' Sasuke being selfless is comical. Naruto has put so much of his sense of self into Sasuke (he dedicated years of his life to being his 'rival' despite the fact that for much of it Sasuke didn't care, and later dedicated years of his life to 'saving' him despite the fact that, again, Sasuke didn't care), that he is desperate to avoid losing Sasuke at any cost.

Naruto is attempting to save Sasuke to prove something to HIMSELF. It is not a _selfless_ endeavor by any means. When he said that he couldn't be Hokage until he saved Sasuke, he as much as admitted to this. 

It's not a display of selfless friendship. It's a display of sick self-projection and a need to dominate someone else's life.



RaitonCloud said:


> Saving your friend is the opposite of selfish.. sitting back and saying fuck it let him rampage killing loads of innocents.. Rather than saying what Naruto said that he will kill him.. Yeaaaah ok.
> 
> *Define save. In Sasuke's case it's death by naruto*.



What are you talking about?

It was SAKURA who decided she would 'save' Sasuke by killing him. Naruto never said any such thing. He said they would die together if necessary, but if you think he'd even consider killing Sasuke and keeping himself alive, you're misinformed.


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 28, 2011)

^seconded   J-mans right, too much hatred in this world 

voted madara uchiha of course. he acts butthurt over his clan choosing hashirama as the hokage, ditching your own clan because they didn't agree with your selfish act on starting another war, attacking the leaf village with the nine tailed fox which later deamed the uchiha clan untrustworthy and later exterminated....yeah what a GREAT leader you'd turn out to be madara


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## HakuGaara (Jun 28, 2011)

Selfishness and ego are two different things.

If you mean selfishness that would be Orochimaru.

If you mean Ego, that would be Sasuke.


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## Akira Kurusu (Jun 28, 2011)

1) even if sasuke didn't want to be saved i'd surley wouldn't let a murder do what he wants and go through more killing attempts on others. for example, if my own sibling went of doing crack and didn't need my help i'd surley wouldn't respect that kind of decision and would stop said-dsibling at any cost.

2) even if naruto ignored that sasuke would've still gone on with killing while madara dupes him out of any harm (like what happened between the 5 kages at the summit incident).

3) this is debatable actually.


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## KingBoo (Jun 28, 2011)

in naruto, your genes, and where and how you grow up determines your greatness. before that good for nothing sage was introduced, it was about hard work. now with the sage and his horrible decision, we have to watch a remake of the older bro vs younger bro match through naruto and sauske since it's destiny. since madara wants it for the chortles.


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## HakuGaara (Jun 28, 2011)

Ya, it went from 'try your hardest' and 'don't give up' to 'I don't need to try because I'm the savior and I'm destined to win'. FAIL

Kishi basically took the 'bloodline' concept (don't need to try to succeed) and applied to the the main character and the story in general


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## zuul (Jun 28, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> You know now that I think about it I'm not sure if the manga ever actually supported this notion. Yes Naruto was an underdog ,but the fact that he had the ninetails in him made him special. Thats why his victory over Neji was hollow. He didnt beat someone naturally gifted through hard work, so he never really proved anything. If it had been Lee that beat Neji than it would have meant alot more because Lee's skills were truly nothing but the result of hard work. But what happened when he fought an elite like Gaara? He was defeated.



That's true. Doesn't excuse the shittioness of part 2 themes and plot though.




SaVaGe609 said:


> IMO Lee is a much more admirable character then Naruto. He works just as hard (if not, harder) and has no greater destiny or fate. Not that we know of anyway.


Agree. Lee

Too bad the author forgot about his exsitence.


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 28, 2011)

Lol are you serious OP ? 

Have you counted all these training arcs with naruto ? how is it possible to say that ? naruto managed to be what he is powerwise only beacuse of his hard work, in contrast with sasuke who received power ups without training.


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## Skywalker (Jun 28, 2011)

Naruto lied.

Neji was right all along.


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## Soca (Jun 28, 2011)

ah lee, I had high hopes for you and your taijutsu but sadly...it wasn't enough for destiny


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## zuul (Jun 28, 2011)

Necessary Evil said:


> Lol are you serious OP ?
> 
> Have you counted all these training arcs with naruto ? how is it possible to say that ? naruto managed to be what he is powerwise only beacuse of his hard work, in contrast with sasuke who received power ups without training.



I don't see much hard work too be honest. Only a few intensives trainings sessions on relatively short periods the course of several years.

There are plenty other ninjas who are shown to work harder and that on an every day basis. Gai, Lee, even Hinata.

Maybe even Sasuke (except that thanks Pasta, his training sessions are an off panel thing).


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## The Uchiha Hawk (Jun 28, 2011)

RaidenisDead said:


> Naruto sees his parents in person, which is more dramatic from a storytelling point of view. It wouldn't have been as good to hear about them from someone who didn't have a firsthand account of what happened that night.



True ,but what I really hated was how Kishi choose to reveal to us the readers the truth about Naruto's heritage. He did it in an off handed conversation between Jiraiya and Tsunade. What a terrible way to reveal something so important. Most of us had figured it out by then, but still, it would have been better to wait unitl Jiraiya's death scene and had his last flashback reveal who Naruto's parents were.

On another note, I wonder just how man people in the leaf knew about Naruto's parents. Kakashi and Yamato seemed to know, did Iruka as well? Was it sort of with the ninetails were most of the important adults knew, and only the kids were left out?


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 28, 2011)

Stupid plot hole created by Kishimoto,simple answer.


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## ashher (Jun 28, 2011)

AeroNin said:


> Is it me or is anyone else pissed off that at the beginning of this manga we are led to believe that ANYONE could become great. Even against the odds, with hard work you can achieve greatness. Even if you're the underdog
> 
> Now, this manga is all about destiny which contradicts everything that this manga was based on.
> 
> Screw you Kishi



this is getting way too wary. In part 1 neji basically said your fate is predetermined at the time of your birth and nothing you do counts for anything. Naruto in answere said that one never knows his destiny till he tries...so get this garbage out of your head that existance of destiny was denied at any part of the manga. Rather its the fatalistic ideal of it being out of the realm of human effort is what has been refuted. And what has happened since that has gone against it? Nothing. Right in the last couple of chapters we've come to know that even someone who was destined to be savior, couldn't finish his job and had to entrust that to future generation. What does that tell you? Does it take human effort to reach the destiny or not? The answer is bloody well yes, and its been bloody well clear all along. Don't go on blaming kishimoto for your lack of reading comprehension.


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## ashher (Jun 28, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> And this is what kills me the most in this story, narutos *intelligence* comes off as greater than everyone' logic and common sense. EVERYONE in this war wants to protect their friend n such but you don't see them disobeying orders and acting like the way he does. It's ridiculous



its not his intelligence that's greater than anybody else's, its his faith. Its faith in this simple ideal that when someone fights to protect, he can't fail. That's exactly what B and him said in this chapter, in case you didn't get it.


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 28, 2011)

zuul said:


> I don't see much hard work too be honest. *Only a few intensives trainings* sessions on relatively short periods the course of several years.
> 
> There are plenty other ninjas who are shown to work harder and that on an every day basis. Gai, Lee, even Hinata.
> 
> Maybe even Sasuke (except that thanks Pasta, his training sessions are an off panel thing).



Kishimoto dedicated whole arcs in naruto's training.And these training were made by some of the most powerful shinobi;s and this is not enough for you ?

Are you actually saying that Gai/lee/hinata work harder than naruto?What is this based from?


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## The Uchiha Hawk (Jun 28, 2011)

ashher said:


> this is getting way too wary. In part 1 neji basically said your fate is predetermined at the time of your birth and nothing you do counts for anything. Naruto in answere said that one never knows his destiny till he tries...so get this garbage out of your head that existance of destiny was denied at any part of the manga. Rather its the fatalistic ideal of it being out of the realm of human effort is what has been refuted. And what has happened since that has gone against it? Nothing. Right in the last couple of chapters we've come to know that even someone who was destined to be savior, couldn't finish his job and had to entrust that to future generation. What does that tell you? Does it take human effort to reach the destiny or not? The answer is bloody well yes, and its been bloody well clear all along. Don't go on blaming kishimoto for your lack of reading comprehension.



It was never confirmed that the 4th was the savior, thats just what Jirayai initially thought.:
izanagi
However before dying he realized it was Naruto all along:
izanagi

Also Neji declared that it was impossible to change your destiny, it doesn't matter if Naruto worked hard or not he is still fulfilling his destined role. Neji also laughed at Naruto's idea that anyone could become Hokage, stating only a few had the potential (this is also proven to be true). Finally Lee stated that through hard work anyone could defeat an elite and so far this still hasn't really been proven.


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## slickcat (Jun 28, 2011)

Daylight said:


> Those who break the rules are scum; but those who abandon their friends are worse than scum.



this blame kakashi ,if anything kakashi wanting to kill sasuke sounds hypocrite to me


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## JPongo (Jun 28, 2011)

Sasuke is the most Eagle-testicle.

c wat i did thar


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## Helios (Jun 28, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> Naruto, though? I mean, seriously? Did all of you forget how he let Karui beat him up in the hopes of saving Sasuke? Do you remember him begging the Raikage for the sake of his friend? Do you remember him calling Sakura on her confession of love? He could have said he loved her, too, and gone on to live a happy life with Sakura at Sasuke's expense. I mean, I can go on and on here. Naruto is easily one of the most giving characters in the manga. And his fierce determination in himself is not the same as being egotistical.



Naruto is selfish because he is willing to risk the world in order to redeem Sasuke and see team 7 laughing again.Considering that he is the savior i see him willing to harm the world on a *personal whim* especially since Sasuke has made his choices.Naruto is not listening to anyone,not even Jiraya who had a vivid similar experience.

Naruto is egoistic because he prevents others to proceed in actions that he considers *his own burden*.I see an exaggerated sense of self importance that even if we consider as justified and real, one has the right to deny it and do what he thinks is the best for him and everybody else.

I will agree that Naruto is not standing at the top of the list.However his case is being more vividly projected because it is in contrast with the elements that should characterize his role.Orochimaru,Madara and Sasuke are villains therefore such behaviour is to be expected.But to locate such signs in the behaviour of the protagonist is irritating.

Thats my take on it.


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## Spanktastik (Jun 28, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> And this is what kills me the most in this story, narutos intelligence comes off as greater than everyone' logic and common sense. EVERYONE in this war wants to protect their friend n such but you don't see them disobeying orders and acting like the way he does. It's ridiculous



You do if the leaders of the alliance are ignorant,  hey after 1 day they already figured out they NEEED Naruto.


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## Epyon (Jun 28, 2011)

ashher said:


> its not his intelligence that's greater than anybody else's, its his faith. Its faith in this simple ideal that when someone fights to protect, he can't fail. That's exactly what B and him said in this chapter, in case you didn't get it.



And yet when Tsunade wants to enter the fight to protect Naruto it's nogo. Naruto prevents her from getting herself rolfstomped instantly.


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## DiScO (Jun 28, 2011)

It?s not his fault if his father tells him that he can do it(kill Madara ),his Sensei believes that he is the  choosen one and e.t.c if many people told you that you?re able to do something you would also believe that you?re able to do it.


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## ashher (Jun 28, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> It was never confirmed that the 4th was the savior, thats just what Jirayai initially thought.:
> izanagi
> However before dying he realized it was Naruto all along:
> izanagi
> ...



and what any of this refuter that i've said. Child of destiny is being determined by who is taking the right actions and choices to become the savior of the world. It is because naruto is making the right choices is why he is the one and not minato or nagato. All 3 of them fulfills the conditions of the prophecy, yet only one of them is finally rising as the destined child because he is only one acting rightly, thereby building his own destiny. That's totally what naruto said and what neji did NOT say. About beating geniuses with hard work, Guy and Naruto has exactly done that against Kisame and Pain.


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## Skywalker (Jun 28, 2011)

This crap again?


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## erivar (Jun 28, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> This crap again?



You have no idea. But its entertaining though. 

Is Naruto selfish? Is he selfless? Is he a disobeying soldier? Is he Jesus?
Would Jiraiya disprove or support Naruto's decision? Does Tsunade let Naruto walk all over him? Are the leaders dumb? Is Naruto all talk or can he back it up? Does Naruto put Sasuke above everyone else or is it just a wild interpretation by the fandom? Is the fandom as dumb and literary challenged as it sounds? So many questions.


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## erivar (Jun 28, 2011)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> It's not that they were douchebags.
> 
> It was the fear. As Yoda said, "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate...leads to suffering."
> 
> ...



Good defense argument for Konoha. You could be their lawyer. I don't think it will be able to fly with me though if i were the jury and i can rip it apart if i were the prosecutor. But its a great list of excusing explaining away each and every thing.


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## Eikichi Onizuka (Jun 28, 2011)

I started reading the manga a month ago and just got caught up but the answer the question is yes he is selfish. Who ever pointed out that it is irrational for him to think that he knows more then those older then him is right.  Common sense says that he should have given up on Sasuke a while ago but he still tries to save someone that doesn't want to be saved. Its not his place to tell Sasuke that his quest for vengeance is not worth it, but it is his job to stop him. I hate that they have crowned him the messiah. I used to love or atleast like the character but now I cant stand him, he is by far the worst shonen character out of the bleach, naruto, one piece trio.


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## Santeira (Jun 28, 2011)

RaitonCloud said:


> And i dont understand where all this critisism is coming from, Naruto has been egotistical from day one. He was selfish because all he had was himself now he has something he wants to protect it and *doesn't give a darn about himself..*



He _does _give a darn about himself. 

He doesn't want to kill Sasuke because he wants to protect his ideals and beliefs. Because he wants to protect his heart. 

And he is willing to risk himself for it, ergo risking others. And he forces these ideals upon others.

Yes, he is selfish and egotistical. I don't understand where your arguments are coming from.


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## zantha (Jun 28, 2011)

i never thought of naruto as having a big ego. in part one he acted that way to get attenstion. in part two he is always beating himself up for being weak. he dosn't think he is that strong. he believes he can do what he dose, because people that he respects believe in him. he is the of the most selfless characters though.


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## zantha (Jun 28, 2011)

i think in all honestly, naruto never thought very much about his parents. i think kakashi said early on about him, that he probaly cryed a lot as a child. then realised that it wound't change anything, so stopped crying and got on with it. therefor he didn't think about his parent. he said to him mother somthing like he now undertsnads a parents love, meaning he has had no idea about that before, or thought about it. 
as for no one telling him. they where told not to. also i don't think it is the kind of thing you would want to talk about, if you knew his parents. also remeber most peopel might worry that he might get angry if he found out (Which he did. he punched his father) he has the nine tails, which can take over when he is angry. therefor if they might not want to overly upset him. espcially when he was young and had no control or knowledge of the nine tails.


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## mayumi (Jun 28, 2011)

All these dead guys left a huge responsibility on naruto minato, jiraiya, ITACHI, nagato, konan etc etc. oh naruto why dont u just sit in the corner, no one really believes u. Just abandon all these dead guys hopes and dreams.
U should trust ur friends who go behind ur back, lie to u, make false confessions, try to trick u etc even though they think u can kill sasuke or whoever. For all these hypocrits naruto should just entrust his life to them. Surely they will protect him. Lulz.


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## Eikichi Onizuka (Jun 28, 2011)

Im new here but im going to try to make sense of this. Part 2 of the manga has proven beyond logic that destiny determines everything not hard work. Naruto is a prime example of why Neji WAS right. He has the strongest Biji sealed within him from birth for one so like other people have said that makes him special. The fact that no other Biji is stronger then the nine-tails is just sprinkles on the ice cream. 

Naruto has not i repeat has not worked that hard at all. From what ive read and am currently watching the anime, he really is a terrible ninja. He has what 5 or 6 jutsu to his name, doesn't seem to have great chakra control, and he hasn't even mastered all the jutsu he has in his arsenal. Is anyone not the less bit curious or scared that the so called savior is heading into battle with a guy he thinks he can beat that has been alive for over a century and who possess the two strongest bloodlines but yet he can't do a powerful Rasengan with one hand without sorting to a trick. It would be like one of you guys learning how to box for like a year and then decide to fight Mike Tyson in his prime thinking you have a chance. You might be good, but there's no way in hell your beating him. Back to my point, Naruto has continually run out on some of his training to actually get stronger. He should have stayed and learned to control the nine-tails better, for Gods sake he doesn't fully understand all the drawbacks i would think.  The only way he has "beat"  anyone was due to sheer raw strength over them.

Naruto was born into greatness just from his parents. Even with the nine-tails you could have made the argument that Naruto became a great ninja through hard work, but he has the greatest genes of anyone in this series. His father was THEE greatest ninja from what everyone seems to be saying. Then you add his mother into the mixture who had rare chakra and belonged to the Uzumaki clan who had long lifespans. If Naruto took after any one of them or even came up to 30% of there greatness combined you have a ninja that is way more capable then the current hokage or one for the record books at least.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 28, 2011)

Santeira said:


> He _does _give a darn about himself.
> 
> He doesn't want to kill Sasuke because he wants to protect his ideals and beliefs. Because he wants to protect his heart.



So being compassionate is selfish now huh?

Considering Naruto has put the village over Sasuke already.



> And he is willing to risk himself for it, ergo risking others. And he forces these ideals upon others.



I'm more of the opinion that the villagers voided their right to complain about anything Naruto does as a jinchuriki about the same time they shunned him.

When you get down to it, what hold does the alliance have over Naruto? His own Kage didn't agree with the original decision, why should he have to listen to the leaders of villages that aren't his own? Particularly when they can't even contain him, which means they are keeping their best weapon(s) out of the war. Note that this is the same war that is endangering his friends.

Why on earth should Naruto have to put up with an increased risk to his friends?



> Yes, he is selfish and egotistical. I don't understand where your arguments are coming from.



You do realise you can make virtually any decision sound selfish right? 

Or should we adopt a morality system governed by population? This is generally what people who argue Naruto is selfish inherently assume. Going against what the majority of the world wants isn't actually selfish, unless you are doing it for yourself, which Naruto clearly isn't.

Now you can argue that he doesn't want to feel the pain of his friends dying, but it'd be a pointless and vapid argument.


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## Santeira (Jun 28, 2011)

Mr Horrible said:


> So being compassionate is selfish now huh?
> 
> Considering Naruto has put the village over Sasuke already.


It is compassion? 

Oh now the misery of one person > the much larger population. 



> I'm more of the opinion that the villagers voided their right to complain about anything Naruto does as a jinchuriki about the same time they shunned him.


And that's not being selfish? As though the villagers' fear wasn't unfounded when some of them lost family and friends because of the Kyuubi. Not saying what they did was right, but it was understandable. 



> When you get down to it, what hold does the alliance have over Naruto? *His own Kage didn't agree with the original decision*, why should he have to listen to the leaders of villages that aren't his own? Particularly when they can't even contain him, which means they are keeping their best weapon(s) out of the war. Note that this is the same war that is endangering his friends.
> 
> Why on earth should Naruto have to put up with an increased risk to his friends?


None of what you have said has disproved that he is selfish and egotistical. In fact, you bolster the facts. 





> You do realise you can make virtually any decision sound selfish right?
> 
> Or should we adopt a morality system governed by population? This is generally what people who argue Naruto is selfish inherently assume. Going against what the majority of the world wants isn't actually selfish, unless you are doing it for yourself, which Naruto clearly isn't.
> 
> Now you can argue that he doesn't want to feel the pain of his friends dying, but it'd be a pointless and vapid argument.


So why does he keep wanting Sasuke to live the the way he wants? You haven't provided a single proof that he is not doing it for himself. He's gone on his knees for him and he even forgives Sasuke for endangering his teacher and supposedly the girl he loves. If you justify it as compassion, then ending Sasuke's misery from the start still shows compassion. Letting Sasuke live endangers the population. 

But yeah, he can't save the rest if he can't save Sasuke. He won't save the rest if he doesn't save Sasuke. Not selfish and egotistical, how?


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## Skywalker (Jun 28, 2011)

Huge ego = huge penis of justice?


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## Summers (Jun 28, 2011)

Jord@n said:


> He needs to face the fact that he has superiors and he shouldn't be able to do whatever the fuck he wants (Tsunade has no spine). It's a pity the J-man isn't here to slap him back into place.



J-man? He picked Naruto as the chosen one.

for a while the argument for Naruto's ego/selfishness was that he was disobeying orders,trying to end a war by himself,putting the world and risk. 
Those have/should go away, chapter after chapter just like many have said that was proven wrong. 
The kyuubi chakra is being replaced with Kin and Gins, Shikaku said that Naruto is the only one who can stop the Zetsu infiltration, and Naruto has now gotten permission from his superiors.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 28, 2011)

Santeira said:


> It is compassion?



Not wanting to kill somebody is always compassion.

You can argue it is naive, but not selfish.



> Oh now the misery of one person > the much larger population.



Actually you'll note that Sasuke is intent on going after Naruto first, as shown by his promise to Naruto.

Now if he kills anyone from the alliance on the way to Naruto, I'll admit you have a point here.

However that would still simply prove Naruto naive.



> And that's not being selfish? As though the villagers' fear wasn't unfounded when some of them lost family and friends because of the Kyuubi. Not saying what they did was right, but it was understandable.



Give me one shred of evidence that the villagers had a solid reason to fear Naruto. This is the exact definition of 'unfounded', heck if they knew jinchurikis could lose control of their beast, then how would alienating him from them help?

The only explanation for the villagers is stupidity. 



> None of what you have said has disproved that he is selfish and egotistical. In fact, you bolster the facts.



No, you're saying that when Naruto disagrees with an alliance he's never been involved with, he is selfish. Note how he's doing this in order to save his friends, this fact tends to directly contradict any claim that Naruto is selfish.

Stupid and naive? Perhaps, although personally I don't see the logic behind the alliance's moves regarding the jinchuriki, it seemed like a knee-jerk reaction to me.



> So why does he keep wanting Sasuke to live the the way he wants? You haven't provided a single proof that he is not doing it for himself. He's gone on his knees for him and he even forgives Sasuke for endangering his teacher and supposedly the girl he loves. If you justify it as compassion, then ending Sasuke's misery from the start still shows compassion. Letting Sasuke live endangers the population.



Naruto most certainly doesn't want Sasuke to live the way he pleases. Of course if you meant the other way (justifying genocide), then there's really no point to this. Note that Naruto has said he is willing to kill Sasuke if he continues on his path of darkness.

I find it amusing you're calling someone who is willing to forgo his pride for the sake of another 'selfish'. 

Personally, you'd have to present a pretty convincing case in order for me to ever justify killing someone as a compassionate act. This certainly doesn't apply to Sasuke yet, as Naruto believes he can be redeemed.



> But yeah, he can't save the rest if he can't save Sasuke. He won't save the rest if he doesn't save Sasuke. Not selfish and egotistical, how?



Where on earth was this said? Naruto certainly can save his friends while not being able to save Sasuke, which would be a scenario that ends with Sasuke's death.

Note that even if Naruto does meet Sasuke before he saves his friends, the worst outcome would be Naruto's death as at the moment, Sasuke couldn't give a damn about extracting the Kyuubi.

Then you consider the fact that it's virtually impossible to kill Madara without something to bait him first (hint; jinchurikis). This only leaves Kabuto, who hasn't actually shown much other than Edo Tensei, particularly to the alliance. Sure, he has Orochimaru's DNA, but compared to current top tier power levels, Orochimaru doesn't stack up.


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## Summers (Jun 28, 2011)

I think the reasons are a bit darker than most. If they told him they would have a lot of explaining to do. 

Why wasn't his godfather around for 12 years, only showing up because he was tracing Orochimaru. 
Why wasn't Kakshi there for him.why hasn't anyone who was close to the 4th other than 3rd save him from his loneliness. 

Naruto would not have been satisfied with the answer.


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## Naruto (Jun 28, 2011)

Being reckless =/= being selfish.

Anyone who claims Naruto is selfish does not know what selfish means or is incredibly jaded in their hatred towards the character.

Stupid at times? Absolutely. Oblivious? No doubt. Insubordinate? Yes. Selfish? No.

Naruto's purpose in life is to protect his loved ones. He has dedicated his life to save his friend. He has done so relentlessly after being turned down by the very person he's trying to help, repeatedly. He perseveres despite everyone else telling him to give up.

Naruto is the best friend depicted in any work of fiction, ever.

He is nothing but selfless.


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## BroKage (Jun 28, 2011)

Naruto isn't selfless.

His lenience towards Sasuke risks the lives of innocents simply to expel his fear of loss.

His eagerness to participate in war risks the world simply to expel his fear of guilt.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 28, 2011)

Naruto is selfish, when it comes to Sasuke...as a matter of fact, his worst aspects show whenever the issue of Sasuke comes up, much like well, quite a few characters...



PikaCheeka said:


> Naruto is being selfish when it comes to Sasuke because:
> 
> 1) Sasuke does not want to be saved. There comes a point when you need to respect someone else's choices. People will make their own choices in life, and at some point or another, you need to respect that, regardless of what you consider those choices. There's a fine line between being a great friend who will go to the farthest extremes, and being a stalker who refuses to accept the fact that others are entitled to their own decisions.
> 
> ...



That's exactly how I feel about it.


----------



## Santeira (Jun 28, 2011)

> Not wanting to kill somebody is always compassion.
> 
> You can argue it is naive, but not selfish.


You disregard context of the situation when you said this. Generally, you can say not killing somebody is compassion. But if that somebody has made clear that he doesn’t want to follow your ideals, has made his choice, has constantly endangered the people Naruto supposedly ‘cared for’, has even endangered Naruto, and has threatened to kill a population for his revenge, his refusal of action to eliminate the threat ‘because of what he believes’ is no longer compassion. He’s just nursing his ego. 


> Actually you'll note that Sasuke is intent on going after Naruto first, as shown by his promise to Naruto.
> 
> Now if he kills anyone from the alliance on the way to Naruto, I'll admit you have a point here.
> 
> However that would still simply prove Naruto naive.


He is na?ve from the start, I never said he isn’t. Not only he is na?ve, he refuses to accept his na?ve ideals are endangering people. Oh, don’t worry, I’m sure Sasuke wouldn’t kill anyone because this is where this story seems to be going, but it won't disprove Naruto is still selfish and egotistical. 



> Give me one shred of evidence that the villagers had a solid reason to fear Naruto. This is the exact definition of 'unfounded', heck if they knew jinchurikis could lose control of their beast, then how would alienating him from them help?
> 
> The only explanation for the villagers is stupidity.


So how does this exclude them from the right to protect themselves by supporting Sasuke to be killed? Why they felt the way they did has no relevance with the fact of whether or not Naruto is not selfish and egotistical. 



> No, you're saying that when Naruto disagrees with an alliance he's never been involved with, he is selfish. Note how he's doing this in order to save his friends, this fact tends to directly contradict any claim that Naruto is selfish.



He only wants to save Sasuke. He implied himself he is not worthy to be Hokage if he doesn’t save Sasuke. If he cares about his ‘friends’, that he can protect them by eliminating the threat.  



> Stupid and naive? Perhaps, although personally I don't see the logic behind the alliance's moves regarding the jinchuriki, it seemed like a knee-jerk reaction to me.


This is irrelevant to our discussion.



> Naruto most certainly doesn't want Sasuke to live the way he pleases. Of course if you meant the other way (justifying genocide), then there's really no point to this. Note that Naruto has said he is willing to kill Sasuke if he continues on his path of darkness.


Yup. I don't remember any point I said that justifies genocide. And nope, he said 'we will die together'.


----------



## Aleph-1 (Jun 28, 2011)

A main character with such extreme character traits could _maybe_ be seen as "balanced," but Naruto still comes across as ridiculous sometimes. If Kishimoto just dialed down the hype machine, retarded plot points, and shitty drama....the most important characters wouldn't be nearly as hard to put up with IMO.

I think it's okay to say that Kishimoto's writing sucks sometimes if it really does....just look at what Sasuke has turned into, lol.


----------



## Samochan (Jun 28, 2011)

For such a selfless character, Naruto is entitled to some selfishness in his goal to get his best friend back, but at the same moment a selfless act of saving him. >_> And for a person who has been alone for the first 10 years or so of his life, any connection with other people are important. A person he looked up to and his friend, even more so.

If your best friend suddenly started to do drugs, then later commited murder, would you abandon him because you feel he's unworthy or tried to talk some sense into him and make him repent his actions? I imagine that's quite a moral dilemma, which Naruto has to face here.

At the very core, Naruto wants Sasuke back not for himself or for Konoha, but for Sasuke. I cannot find selfishness in that he wants to save someone else so he'd lead a better life.


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## kzk (Jun 28, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> And this is what kills me the most in this story, narutos intelligence comes off as greater than everyone' logic and common sense. EVERYONE in this war wants to protect their friend n such but you don't see them disobeying orders and acting like the way he does. It's ridiculous



It is kind of ridiculous, but at the same time you have to remember his vision is significantly different than that of everyone else around him. His idea of bringing peace to the world is to stop conflict entirely, while everyone else's is to find temporary peace within their broken system. Obviously he's not going to be able to follow their lead.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 28, 2011)

> If your best friend suddenly started to do drugs, then later commited murder, would you abandon him because you feel he's unworthy or tried to talk some sense into him and make him repent his actions?



Yes, I would turn him in.


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## stockholmsyndrome (Jun 28, 2011)

Arcystus said:


> His eagerness to participate in war risks the world simply to expel his fear of guilt.



Not really he sees it as necessary like Minato entrusted Naruto with defeating Madara never mind the fact the Alliance are losing this war they lost over half there army on the 1st day which got compounded by Zetsu's actions during the night Naruto has been shown to be correct in all of his actions during this arc of course there is risk but if Naruto didn't take this action he is dooming the world for sure


----------



## Kathutet (Jun 28, 2011)

RaitonCloud said:


> Naruto almost mimics Jiraiya type heroism. The dopey look at me stance, followed by failure but serious business when it counts.
> 
> People in the other thread saying he has a god complex... He wants to save his friends... Whats wrong with wanting to use your power to save your friends and stop a war? Better to aim high then low. "Get busy living or get busy dying".
> 
> ...


people tend to forget this is a manga most of the time. that's why they say the things they say.

it's also why i facepalm on a daily basis, and why i crush my forehead with my palm on a weekly basis.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 28, 2011)

Santeira said:


> You disregard context of the situation when you said this. Generally, you can say not killing somebody is compassion. But if that somebody has made clear that he doesn?t want to follow your ideals, has made his choice, has constantly endangered the people Naruto supposedly ?cared for?, has even endangered Naruto, and has threatened to kill a population for his revenge, his refusal of action to eliminate the threat ?because of what he believes? is no longer compassion. He?s just nursing his ego.



To Naruto, all the 'danger to his friends' stuff doesn't particularly matter, as Sasuke has already agreed to take his hate out on Naruto first. Combine this with Naruto having said he is willing to kill Sasuke and I really don't see where you can get egotistical and selfish from this scenario.

As I said earlier, it could be naivety. Note that he probably won't be wrong either, as Sasuke seemed perfectly amicable to taking down Naruto first.



> He is na?ve from the start, I never said he isn?t. Not only he is na?ve, he refuses to accept his na?ve ideals are endangering people. Oh, don?t worry, I?m sure he wouldn?t kill anyone because this is where this story seems to be going, but it won't disprove he is still selfish and egotistical.



I'm just saying it seems like you are confusing naivety with selfishness. 

Assuming it's only about Sasuke, then you can only accuse Naruto of being foolish, as he genuinely believes his friends aren't in danger.



> So how does this exclude them from the right to protect themselves by supporting Sasuke to be killed? Why they felt the way they did has no relevance with the fact of whether or not Naruto is not selfish and egotistical.



Sure, the villagers could support killing Sasuke, that doesn't mean Naruto has to or should, nor does it make him selfish.



> He only wants to save Sasuke. He implied himself he is not worthy to be Hokage if he doesn?t save Sasuke. If he cares about his ?friends?, that he can protect them by eliminating the threat.



So Naruto's only goal is to save Sasuke? This flies in the face of what is shown in the manga. Heck you even bring up his goal of becoming Hokage.

What about the current situation means Naruto's friends are in danger? Or more pertinently, that Naruto is aware his friends are in danger from Sasuke?



> This is irrelevant to our discussion.



Sorry, I assumed you were also using Naruto's recent actions as proof of his selfishness.



> Yup. I don't remember any point I said that justifies genocide. And nope, he said 'we will die together'.



Because you used the pronoun 'he', it could have referred to either Naruto or Sasuke. If you had meant that Naruto was wrong with disagreeing with Sasuke's life choices, then you'd be condoning them. Of course it appears you weren't.

You do know that a part of dying together is killing Sasuke right?

Also, my interpretation of said scene was that Naruto was talking about power levels, not some 'I can't live without you' nonsense.


----------



## Kathutet (Jun 28, 2011)

Santeira said:


> This wouldn't get this long if people admit Naruto is selfish and egotistical.


i see what you did there. 

but no.


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## Santeira (Jun 28, 2011)

Mr Horrible said:


> To Naruto, all the 'danger to his friends' stuff doesn't particularly matter, as Sasuke has already agreed to take his hate out on Naruto first. Combine this with Naruto having said he is willing to kill Sasuke and I really don't see where you can get egotistical and selfish from this scenario.
> 
> As I said earlier, it could be naivety. Note that he probably won't be wrong either, as Sasuke seemed perfectly amicable to taking down Naruto first.
> 
> ...



As I predicted, this will be a futile exercise of redundancy.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 28, 2011)

Santeira said:


> As I predicted, this will be a futile exercise of redundancy.



I'm sorry I don't agree with your poorly constructed thoughts?


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## Santeira (Jun 28, 2011)

Mr Horrible said:


> I'm sorry I don't agree with your poorly constructed thoughts?



You're entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.


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## navy (Jun 28, 2011)

Naruto isnt selfish. In fact he only cares about others not himself. He took on the *burden*   of ridding the world of hate from Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato.

If you think following your destiny is selfish or egotistical then you lack basic reading comprehension


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## Kathutet (Jun 28, 2011)

navy said:


> Naruto isnt selfish. In fact he only cares about others not himself. He took on the *burden*   of ridding the world of hate from Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato.
> 
> If you think following your destiny is selfish or egotistical then you lack basic reading comprehension


*cue people starting to complain about how naruto got from change destiny to follow destiny*


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## Naruto (Jun 28, 2011)

This is getting us nowhere.


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## navy (Jun 28, 2011)

Kenneth said:


> *cue people starting to complain about how naruto got from change destiny to follow destiny*



Valid complaint 

But to claim Naruto is selfish for saving people is the stupidest thing ive ever heard. This is the same guy that bowed to Raikage and let a female beat him up.Not to mention he didnt kill Nagato.

Also the following orders thing 

The Messiah (and author) is always right. Its not an ego thing, he is just right. Which is why Raikage changed his orders. Kishi made it clear that Naruto entering the war is the only hope..any attempt to refute this is idiotic in itself


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## Forlong (Jun 28, 2011)

Helios said:


> Naruto is selfish because he is willing to risk the world in order to redeem Sasuke and see team 7 laughing again.


Did you even _read_ the manga?
become Kakashi's eye and be able to see the future through Kakashi
Naruto decided that, if it comes down to it, he'll kill Sasuke and crush his dreams of seeing him redeemed.  He also averted Sasuke's attention away from everyone else to him.  Naruto is Sasuke's next target, thus no one else will be hurt by him.  That is nothing but selfless.

This thread is getting overrun with people who don't understand what "selfish" and "egotism" mean.  "Selfish" is only thinking about what you want.  "Egotism" is only trusting in yourself.  Naruto is egotistic, but in no way selfish.  Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can tell you that.

It is rewarding, however, to see that the amount of Naruto haters that don't know _what_ the poll is asking aren't even close to the number of people that know Sasuke is selfish and egotistic.  Naruto doesn't even compare.  I'm also glade that Sasuke's fans aren't complaining about this thread.  Remember, just because he's not a good person doesn't mean he can't be your favorite character.


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## Haloman (Jun 28, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> Naruto is being selfish when it comes to Sasuke because:
> 
> 1) Sasuke does not want to be saved. There comes a point when you need to respect someone else's choices. People will make their own choices in life, and at some point or another, you need to respect that, regardless of what you consider those choices. There's a fine line between being a great friend who will go to the farthest extremes, and being a stalker who refuses to accept the fact that others are entitled to their own decisions.



self?ish
adjective
1.devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2.characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives. 

What part of that definition matches your description there? Naruto is looking out for *Sasuke's self-interest*. What you're describing isn't Naruto being selfish or egotistical. You're simply describing someone who's *overbearing*, and no one's saying Naruto isn't that.



> 2) Naruto is putting the lives of others at risk because of this. Not two hours after Naruto is groveling on the ground begging for Sasuke's life to be spared, Sasuke goes and murders someone. Was this the fault of Naruto's? Perhaps not, but he needs to learn to be realistic here.



I'd point out that he was asking for Sasuke's life to be spared, but he wasn't asking for Sasuke to get off Scot-free. This actually was a selfish request (because it's something that Naruto wants), but done almost entirely for Sasuke's benefit. So 10% selfish and 90% selfess?  It's not 50/50 by any means.



> 3) The very idea of Naruto's desire to 'save' Sasuke being selfless is comical. Naruto has put so much of his sense of self into Sasuke (he dedicated years of his life to being his 'rival' despite the fact that for much of it Sasuke didn't care, and later dedicated years of his life to 'saving' him despite the fact that, again, Sasuke didn't care), that he is desperate to avoid losing Sasuke at any cost.



... So you think that Naruto sees Sasuke as an extension of himself. So in wanting to save Sasuke, he's actually just wanting to save *himself*.
Riiiiiiiiiiight. Cool fanfic, bro.

And your argument that Naruto is doing this all for himself? Because he wants to be Hokage? He was saying that because he believes he wouldn't be worthy of being Hokage if he couldn't even save one friend. This is the opposite of egotistical at this point. Kakashi said to forget about Sasuke and to pursue his dream of being Hokage one day. Naruto _immediately sacrificed_ his own endeavor to pursue the path that would help his friend. This is not a selfish act.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 28, 2011)

Kenneth said:


> *cue people starting to complain about how naruto got from change destiny to follow destiny*



It's a valid complaint.


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## Mintaka (Jun 28, 2011)

I love how naruto keeps going on about his bond with sasuke as i that is a good reason for what he is doing.

What about all the other bonds he has made?  Are they worth so little to him that he's willing to throw them away all to save some asshat who is beyond redemption?  If so then this bonds crap means nothing in the end and he's being a hypocritical moron.

(((Keep in mind I haven't read the newest chapters.  Not sure if this is the same reason he's giving now.))


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## navy (Jun 28, 2011)

Mintaka said:


> I love how naruto keeps going on about his bond with sasuke as i that is a good reason for what he is doing.
> 
> What about all the other bonds he has made?  Are they worth so little to him that he's willing to throw them away all to save some asshat who is beyond redemption?  If so then this bonds crap means nothing in the end and he's being a hypocritical moron.
> 
> (((Keep in mind I haven't read the newest chapters.  Not sure if this is the same reason he's giving now.))



Sasuke is beyond redemption? 

Its pretty obvious Naruto wouldnt turn his back on any friend, whether Sasuke or not. So how is he throwing away his bonds if i may ask you?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 29, 2011)

I think someone took the criticism too close to heart...


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## izzyisozaki (Jun 29, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> Naruto is being selfish when it comes to Sasuke because:
> 
> 1) Sasuke does not want to be saved. There comes a point when you need to respect someone else's choices. People will make their own choices in life, and at some point or another, you need to respect that, regardless of what you consider those choices. There's a fine line between being a great friend who will go to the farthest extremes, and being a stalker who refuses to accept the fact that others are entitled to their own decisions.



A criminal's 'choice' is not meant to be respected. Your attempt to use moral grounds is laughable.



> 2) Naruto is putting the lives of others at risk because of this. Not two hours after Naruto is groveling on the ground begging for Sasuke's life to be spared, Sasuke goes and murders someone. Was this the fault of Naruto's? Perhaps not, but he needs to learn to be realistic here.


He puts his life on the line for people all the time, he can't be that motivated by making exceptions to the rule when it comes to who he has bonds with.



> 3) The very idea of Naruto's desire to 'save' Sasuke being selfless is comical. Naruto has put so much of his sense of self into Sasuke (he dedicated years of his life to being his 'rival' despite the fact that for much of it Sasuke didn't care, and later dedicated years of his life to 'saving' him despite the fact that, again, Sasuke didn't care), that he is desperate to avoid losing Sasuke at any cost.
> 
> Naruto is attempting to save Sasuke to prove something to HIMSELF. It is not a _selfless_ endeavor by any means. When he said that he couldn't be Hokage until he saved Sasuke, he as much as admitted to this.


you're not going to find one person in the world (that's not a saint) doing otherwise to push themselves forward for another. This isn't critique, this is nitpicking. For the millionth time it been hammered that's he's doing it because he always knew Sasuke was alone. There is nothing selfish about helping someone just because you _understand_ they're suffering. He grew to appreciate Sasuke as a person and the 'he just sees himself' has to be the most cynical reading of his desire to save Sasuke yet. You'd have to apply the same to Gaara and anyone Naruto has ever helped.



> It's not a display of selfless friendship. It's a display of sick self-projection and a need to dominate someone else's life.


cos Sasuke's is selfless affection for his family, right? /just saying

Naruto would do nothing to dominate poor Sasukekunnn's life if he wasn't committing crimes and engaging it what he himself admitted was self-damaging behavior (not to mention according to the story). Sasuke himself is affected by this so such opinion is redundant. But of course who cares, as long as you can pull off Naruto as a selfish douche for the mere fact he has an emotionally-rooted drive like any genuinely selfless person out there that can empathize with suffering.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jun 29, 2011)

*Am I really the only one who facepalmed throughout?*

Seems to be a weekly event lately that people complain about the newest manga chapter. But not so much this time. Even though to me, this seems like the most offensive one to my tastes, in months. At least since the end of the Pain invasion arc.

Usually I can tolerate the dumbing down of the plot. But this chapter was just so much over the top with the silly ass-grabs the whole time. Seriously what's the point of reading this when the writer can just make up some new overpowered technique whenever he feels like it, to solve whatever problem there is?
To me, the story has been on that downward spiral ever since the introduction of Sage Mode and all the previously unmentioned benefits it gave the main character, and things have just been piling up ever since.
Really, the only reason I keep reading is now out of some sense of morbid fascination. 

Now don't get me wrong, I don't mean to be such a downer, I guess it's fun if you're into that kind of story and all the power to ya. The point here is to reach out to those that also feel the way I do. 

SURELY I can't be the only one who feels this way? 

Admittedly, I liked how Kisame's intel might still become Naruto's downfall eventually, by the way.


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## Mael (Jun 29, 2011)

No...you're not alone. 

This just confirmed that the rookies will become increasingly irrelevant unless your name is Sasuke or MAYBE Sakura...oh wait...


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## navy (Jun 29, 2011)

What are you talking about?

All these techniques were just rasengan.


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## Prototype (Jun 29, 2011)

I agree with you. I've kept going this far strictly out of wanting to know how the story comes to a conclusion. However, there have been strong points in the manga every now and again.

There was no warning as to Naruto's new capabilities; they just came out of nowhere.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 29, 2011)

I agree, I think it's terrible the way Kishi just makes shit up on the fly these days. I also hate to see more redundant and borderline-pointless Rasengan variants (Mini FRS? Chakra arms that pull the enemy INTO Rasengan? Seriously? ).

Can't Naruto just go back to not being a Super Saiyan?


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh great more Rasengans, how wickedly awesome!...

This chapter has ruined all my hope for the war. There is barely any chance of the rest of the Rookies getting spotlight. Just team Asuma getting to show off what they got and then team Kurenai and team Gai get shafted big time, just like how its been all through part 2(and for the former, throughout part 1 as well)


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## mayumi (Jun 29, 2011)

yes all haters probably did. also rasengan, more rasengan to fuel the hate.
in the end we will find out that that those spirals behind mito is actually a doujutus and they shoot rasengans from the eyes.


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## Necessary Evil (Jun 29, 2011)

I have to admit that it was a bit retarted by kishi to show all these new moves in one chapter with no simillar training before but i cant deny that it was a good chapter,it was much better than all these crap that we were reading before,in which most of the time we saw secondary and fodder action.

I personally liked it,and kishimoto did it that way to show that Naruto wasnt slacking all the time when he trained with bee,it also showed naruto's inteligent by using the RM chakra as an 'extension' of his body as Bee taught him ,to use and spam his most used techniques.

And yeah i liked too that Kisame's info will give trouble to naruto


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## Soca (Jun 29, 2011)

No sir you are not alone.

inb4 extreme naruto fans trying to make sense of it


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

He's using chakra arms to create Rasengans, as if creating Rasengans is something new. You're complaining over nothing.


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2011)

All of these techniques are ones that Naruto could do before, just used slightly differently thanks to other abilities Naruto has in RM. Also Naruto was training off panel to be able to use his Techniques in RM, so why is it so shocking that he can now use his Techniques in RM? Its not a troll at all, Naruto is just doing the same shit with a different twist.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 29, 2011)

What silly ass-grabs? Sounds like you're hating just to hate.


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## stevensr123 (Jun 29, 2011)

Anyone starting  to notice that naruto is very similar to bleach? Villain gaining hax power after hax power after hax power. and to counter it the author is pulling ass pulls to counter this hax  by giving the hero a sudden and illogical power up and hax power?


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## lathia (Jun 29, 2011)

People complain about Sasuke doing new moves without any training, and now you complain about Naruto doing "new" moves with some (minimal) training? 

I don't even...


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> Anyone starting  to notice that naruto is very similar to bleach? Villain gaining hax power after hax power after hax power. and to counter it the author is pulling ass pulls to counter this hax  by giving the hero a sudden and illogical power up and hax power?



What's illogical about him creating Rasengans with assisting chakra hands that he trained to gain full control of?

The only thing new is that he is using chakra arms instead of Shadow Clones, but the Rasengans are exactly the same. Oh, he decided to make one version of his Rasengan smaller - guess he needed to spend "x" hours training to obtain that.


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## Soca (Jun 29, 2011)

seems like people are getting angrier every week lol this isn't a good thing


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## navy (Jun 29, 2011)

I honestly dont see the problem.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 29, 2011)

Turrin said:


> All of these techniques are ones that Naruto could do before, just used slightly differently thanks to other abilities Naruto has in RM. Also Naruto was training off panel to be able to use his Techniques in RM, so why is it so shocking that he can now use his Techniques in RM? Its not a troll at all, Naruto is just doing the same shit with a different twist.


This!!!




Klue said:


> What's illogical about him creating Rasengans with assisting chakra hands that he trained to gain full control of?
> 
> The only thing new is that he is using chakra arms instead of Shadow Clones, but the Rasengans are exactly the same. Oh, he decided to make one version of his Rasengan smaller - guess he needed to spend "x" hours training to obtain that.



and this!!!!!!!


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## Kind of a big deal (Jun 29, 2011)

lathia said:


> People complain about Sasuke doing new moves without any training, and now you complain about Naruto doing "new" moves with some (minimal) training?
> 
> I don't even...



Neither of them need new moves. New moves does not make a story.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm trying to understand the problem here. What technique did Naruto use this chapter that we haven't seen before in some way shape or form? We've seen FRS, Rasengan, and Food Cart Destroyer before. Where's the ass-pull?


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Neither of them need new moves. New moves does not make a story.



What are these new moves you are talking about?Chakra-hands were demonstrated in chap 519 or something.Rasengans?


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## xXHancockXx (Jun 29, 2011)

No, you are not the only one. I completely agree with you.
I?ve read Naruto from the beginning till now and I have to say, that it is very disappointing to see the story getting that worse. Naruto is f*cking overpowered from week to week and taking all the suspense away. What the hell is wrong with Kishimoto? He really should try to concentrate much more on other characters and the plot as a whole instead of pushing up Naruto, too.


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## Killer Zylos Wolf (Jun 29, 2011)

I hardly see this as different from most stories. A lot of the time characters out of nowhere pull out some kind of power that was never shown before and was completely random. 

I don't really care. It's all Rasegan so Naruto probably just experimented with stuff and just happened. We got a look of his new Rasegan on a cover before, so it's not completely random, it was foreshadowed. 

Plus Naruto can always have flashbacks of how he created it, or even Killerbee can flashback if he was around.

I don't care either way, I enjoy it, I have no reason to complain.


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## Morati (Jun 29, 2011)

Chakra hand ass-grabs


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## Kind of a big deal (Jun 29, 2011)

Guys guys guys ...

The problem isn't *why* he has new techniques. We're not stupid, we can *also* follow Kishimoto's thing that passes for logic to conclude how Naruto managed to develop them.

*The problem* is that instead of working on the character, we just get substituted with new techniques the whole time. Never mind how they came to be, that's just a detail. 

Don't you find that tiresome even a little bit? I certainly have had enough of that since... I dunno... when he went out to learn the rasengan the first time.


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## Addy (Jun 29, 2011)

SM for naruto was a crappy idea for two reasons:

1- he looked more like a fasion model than ugly but badass sage mode jiraya.
2- sasuke lost his chakra bost (cursed seal), and naruto gained another one with his kyuubi mode/RM making him uneven with sasuke (it fascinates me how naruto thinks that he would die fighting a beaten up sasuke at the end of the kage arc )





navy said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> All these techniques were just rasengan.



mini FRS? shadow clones in RM? nothing at all?


----------



## Sorin (Jun 29, 2011)




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## Soca (Jun 29, 2011)

the real question is whatever happened to that fancy cape he had


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## Naruto (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Seems to be a weekly event lately that people complain about the newest manga chapter. But not so much this time.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I don't mean to be such a downer.



You made a thread because people aren't complaining enough, but you don't mean to be such a downer?

There's no pleasing you, really.

When we get training arcs, people moan that they're boring (I don't mind them). Now he's sprouting some new techniques on the fly and people still moan.

Have you read Bleach or One Piece? (I love One Piece, by the way)

Or most shonen, even? Characters get powerups without any explanation whatsoever. Villains who were handling the main cast like they're nothing suddenly get their asses kicked because the passion burns strongly within the Strawhats.

Again, I'm not criticizing these. I'm always rooting for Luffy. I'm just pointing out Kishimoto is the most sensible of the trio.


----------



## stevensr123 (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> What's illogical about him creating Rasengans with assisting chakra hands that he trained to gain full control of?
> 
> The only thing new is that he is using chakra arms instead of Shadow Clones, but the Rasengans are exactly the same. Oh, he decided to make one version of his Rasengan smaller - guess he needed to spend "x" hours training to obtain that.



 chakra arms that require constant chakra control,and while  doing this , he is creating 6 fuckin rasengans . You know the jutsu which requires  some of the best chakra control u need, and the fact not too long ago he needed a shadow clone to help just create one. Yea that is clearly logical


----------



## auem (Jun 29, 2011)

the rasengan things is not haxed...what is haxed is that now naruto moving throughout the field,so other characters will simply fade away...considering this may well be the last chance to see these guys(kakashi,lee,neji,kiba,shino) in solo action...


----------



## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> chakra arms that require constant chakra control,and while  doing this , he is creating 6 fuckin rasengans . You know the jutsu which requires  some of the best chakra control u need, and the fact not too long ago he needed a shadow clone to help just create one. Yea that is clearly logical



Shadow Clones don't require concentration of one's chakra to maintain? Or he just creates clones and doesn't have to worry about them anymore?

So I'm not going to bother to post the page where Naruto said the concentration needed to gather Nature's Energy and maintain clones limited the amount of clones he could use in battle.

Sarcasm fails, it's clearly logical.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 29, 2011)

In that case, Naruto should wittle down the potential harm that Sasuke could cause to others. If Sasuke wants to be evil, Naruto does need to accept that and prepare himself to stop him from acting it out on innocent people. 



> you're not going to find one person in the world (that's not a saint) doing otherwise to push themselves forward for another. This isn't critique, this is nitpicking. For the millionth time it been hammered that's he's doing it because he always knew Sasuke was alone. There is nothing selfish about helping someone just because you understand they're suffering. He grew to appreciate Sasuke as a person and the 'he just sees himself' has to be the most cynical reading of his desire to save Sasuke yet. You'd have to apply the same to Gaara and anyone Naruto has ever helped.



Naruto does put a lot of his own sense of worth into Sasuke, and the worth of his goals though. That's a stated fact. It compromises his character, and compromises the premise of going after Sasuke. You really can't deny the obsessive behavior of Naruto is somewhat selfish, and destructive. Well, you can...but you'd be wrong.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jun 29, 2011)

Naruto said:


> Have you read Bleach or One Piece? (I love One Piece, by the way)



Yeah that's kinda the thing, I gave up on both of them eventually for the same reasons. Naruto is really the only shounen I still follow.

Like I said, for some reason I have invested so much time in Naruto so far I might as well ride it out now. Still, the story is now making mistakes that weren't being made in part 1 or even at the start of part 2.

For the record though, I was never _for_ or _against_ training arcs, and _certainly_ not outspoken about them. It's the amassing of new techniques I don't like primarily.


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## lathia (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Neither of them need new moves. New moves does not make a story.



This isn't a story only manga. It has action and character development through the form of fights. What do you expect from such?


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## alchemy1234 (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> He's using chakra arms to create Rasengans, as if creating Rasengans is something new. You're complaining over nothing.



yeah i kind of agree. the author cant have naruto train for every single technique. i think its best if there are no training sessions for small stuff like rasengan variants.

To be quite honest, naruto has used all the techniques before. i think kishimoto is trying to show he's just become better at using them now since he has control over kyuubi chakra.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> *It's the amassing of new techniques I don't like primarily.*



What new techniques? He used four old techniques in this chapter Kage Bunshin, Rasengan, FRS, and Summoning.


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## Santoryu (Jun 29, 2011)

Good thread                            .


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## Tion (Jun 29, 2011)

There are a lot of things wrong with the Naruto/Sasuke relationship, but I think pointing out Naruto being the 'selfish one' in the relationship is just hilarious. Selfish in putting Sasuke on a pedestal? Yeah, to an extent. Selfish for not listening to what Sasuke wants and imposing himself? Sorry, try again.


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## mayumi (Jun 29, 2011)

lol, naruto has been using chakra hands since part 1 VoTE fight where he made a rasengan in one hand, when kyuubi's chakra hand clawed sasuke. also against oro in part 2 there was chakra hands. naruto does not need require additional training to use chakra hands since he has been doing it for so long. read the manga.


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## Ra (Jun 29, 2011)

Rasengans and Kagebunshins.


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## gabzilla (Jun 29, 2011)

No, you are not alone.


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## Gabe (Jun 29, 2011)

sasuke pulls things out of his ass and his fans defend him and but get mad when naruto used a variant of the rasengan. complaining about sage mode when sauske got a new summoning put pf no where. and free powers cause he killed itachi.


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## Tion (Jun 29, 2011)

Naruto has been about shitty powerups since the Sharingan was redefined to 'magical fire eyes'. It's whole plot and incorporation of Uchiha/Senju has been retcon asspulls. You kind of just go with it. 

Tbh I didn't mind this chapter. I've truly lowered my expectations when it comes to Naruto, so I actually enjoyed the showcase of RM Naruto. I think it's about time he got his epikku power up ever since Sasuke got his awshum skeletal defense. Also I don't care much for the side characters seeing as they have zero impact on the plot that it just felt like weeks of filler.


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## Crowned Clown (Jun 29, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> Anyone starting  to notice that naruto is very similar to bleach? Villain gaining hax power after hax power after hax power. and to counter it the author is pulling ass pulls to counter this hax  by giving the hero a sudden and illogical power up and hax power?



RM was an ass grab? That fact that Naruto finally controls the Kyuubi is an ass grab? The fact that he can manipulate a Rasengan (which was based off of the Kyuubi's Chakra Blast) differently with his chakra arms is an ass grab? Seriously.

All of these are just logical steps that I myself would have taken if I was writing this, and it all stems from Naruto somewhere down the line gaining a deeper control of the Kyuubi than he had before.


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## auem (Jun 29, 2011)

Naruto said:


> You made a thread because people aren't complaining enough, but you don't mean to be such a downer?
> 
> There's no pleasing you, really.
> 
> ...



what i can say is that shounen protagonists have habit to gain that power from 'nowhere'...goku,luffy,naruto all went through that sudden powerup stereotype....but when it come to consistent development of side characters,one piece is far ahead than naruto....all the crew grew stronger along with luffy,so that they don't look eyesore against hero's power....unlike naruto...that's a more sensible writing...


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## Sorin (Jun 29, 2011)

Now people saying that controlling kyuubi and using his chakra is an asspull?For fuck sake that was clear as day from chapter 1.The fuck are you reading?


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## Mongoloid Gnome (Jun 29, 2011)

the plot is a big let down since Madara butted in. That's for sure. Akatsuki whtiout Madara was much more badass.


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## Raiden (Jun 29, 2011)

Turrin and Klue summed it up nicely. What we merely saw was the clever integration of techniques Naruto already knew how to do. Consider that it was against a bunch of Zetsu as well; others characters may (and probably will) be able to put up a better defense.


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## Monna (Jun 29, 2011)

This entire thread is full of dumbasses with shit for brains. I don't even need to elaborate for anyone who has a lick of sense. This is shounen manga, you illiterate retards.


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## Puppetry (Jun 29, 2011)

What were you expecting? Seriously, *what were you expecting?* Kishi makes limitiations disappear at the drop of a hat. What do you think the _Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan_ is? A way for Kishi to make limits disappear. Honestly, this week wasn't so bad. We saw Naruto thinking on the spot and clever applying concepts he used from his training (using chakra arms to aid in creating _Rasengan_ varients) and this is a _problem?_

I complain about this manga quite a bit, and while this chapter was slightly off, you're massively inflitating a nonexistent problem.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jun 29, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> I'm trying to understand the problem here. What technique did Naruto use this chapter that we haven't seen before in some way shape or form? We've seen FRS, Rasengan, and Food Cart Destroyer before. Where's the ass-pull?



Beats me...


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## Draffut (Jun 29, 2011)

It was good up to and including Naruto punching the first Zetsu in the face.

Then it went downhill really fast.


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## GunX2 (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> He's using chakra arms to create Rasengans, as if creating Rasengans is something new. You're complaining over nothing.



/This

Naruto''s whole training was basically off panel. Kishi is just setting him up to weaken Naruto for when Madara comes.


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> It was good up to and including Naruto punching the first Zetsu in the face.
> 
> Then it went downhill really fast.



Please elaborate, tell us why you feel that way.


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## joshhookway (Jun 29, 2011)

I aggree, but the kin brothers were pretty cool


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## steveht93 (Jun 29, 2011)

welcome to shounen manga. seriously, these stuff are normal in shounen manga like the big three.

all of luffy's moves are asspull and also ichigo. nothing new to see here.


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## Rabbit and Rose (Jun 29, 2011)

Goddamnit, the next one better be something else other than bee and naruto.


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## Gunners (Jun 29, 2011)

He didn't make up some over powered technique. We've known since the first arc that the Kyuubi gives him great power, he now has complete control over the Kyuubi's chakra. Chakra can be used to enhance speed, power, jutsu size, etc. 

He used Rasengan variants. The cloaks ability to form a Rasengan was first shown when he fought Sasuke.


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## slickcat (Jun 29, 2011)

meh whatelse did ppl expect.... either I was like wtf each page, and then I was like he might haave even more powers...rasengans,honestly liked the chapter


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## navy (Jun 29, 2011)

Red Queen said:


> Goddamnit, the next one better be something else other than bee and naruto.



Fodders?


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## T-Bag (Jun 29, 2011)

it's just another rasengan... the next move will be another rasengan....


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

Naruto merely substituted Shadow Clones with Chakra Arms, that's pretty much the jist of it.

He created multiple Rasengans using his own hand and a chakra arm, then used chakra wisp on his back to hold them up, before turning those wisps of chakra into chakra arms too - smashing Rasengans into Zetsus.

He created an Oodama Rasengan (used a chakra arm for assistance off panel?) and smashed a few Zetsus into it.

Instead of expelling chakra from his entire hand, he only released chakra from his finger, and along with two miniture chakra arms, he created a Miniture FRS.

He's mastered the use of his chakra cloak and obtained his Rasengan variants quite some time ago - why is combining the two a problem?


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## Samochan (Jun 29, 2011)

Well Naruto has to work what he has doesn't he? Frankly, his jutsu repertoire is horribly small, cause Kishi likes it that way, so using what he has learned thus far in such a clever way should not be que to any facepalm action.

I'd facepalm more if he busted out a jutsu or two or some random technique noone has ever seen or taught to him. As of now, he just learned how to manipulate chakra arms, why the hell not use them then?

Personally, I'm impressed of this level chakra control he has now. I still recall his control of chakra being below the norm, but now? Apparently master level, considering he just made like 6 A-rank jutsu, requiring absolute control, appear out of thin air and suspended in the air, at the same time and then made chakra arms for each of those rasengan to push into enemies.


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## The Scientist (Jun 29, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> the real question is whatever happened to that fancy cape he had



that cape would give him the look fitting for his current power level


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## Eyeshield_20 (Jun 29, 2011)

I think sasuke's power up was worse. Even Madara didn't know where sasuke learned that hawk summoning .


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## The Scientist (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> For the record though, I was never _for_ or _against_ training arcs, and _certainly_ not outspoken about them. It's the amassing of new techniques I don't like primarily.



if you think about it, he is not really amassing new techniques. he is pretty much doing the same thing he has been doing since part 1 - rasengan. yes, they are different and they are more overpowered than what he use to do back then, but they also reflect his current level. he mastered senjutsu, a tech that boosts all of his abilities and we could see the result in his overall techs. he also learned (to some degree) to control kyubi, and it upgraded his abilities. I for one was not surprised that he is this strong. he is supposed to be this strong. he has one of the ultimate chakra's after all. it would be a surprise if his abilities arent upgraded, after learning senjutsu and gaining some control over kyubi.


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## slickcat (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> Naruto merely substituted Shadow Clones with Chakra Arms, that's pretty much the jist of it.
> 
> He created multiple Rasengans using his own hand and a chakra arm, then used chakra wisp on his back to hold them up, before turning those wisps of chakra into chakra arms too - smashing Rasengans into Zetsus.
> 
> ...


this,Dont see what d complaint is, the name of the manga is naruto, as much as u love other characters its best to skip every page with him,all the extra characters are side characters,bloody obvious.This isnt one piece,always the case when ppl cant enjoy d manga irresp. of character


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## Hexa (Jun 29, 2011)

I feel like two thirds of the chapter was a recap, and the only kind of bad parts were that a couple of the new jutsu (rasengan vacuum and miniFRS) displayed have just kind of terrible designs (but, likely they won't be used ever again).  So that's two facepalms, and maybe a third  since the whole "just use kage bunshin anyway" thing is sort of a lame solution to the Zetsu problem.  But really, the odds of reading a chapter that has nothing lame in it is probably zero.


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## vered (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> Naruto merely substituted Shadow Clones with Chakra Arms, that's pretty much the jist of it.
> 
> He created multiple Rasengans using his own hand and a chakra arm, then used chakra wisp on his back to hold them up, before turning those wisps of chakra into chakra arms too - smashing Rasengans into Zetsus.
> 
> ...



i think that he created the cho odama rasenga one handed, at least the previous panel implies so.but it really dosent matter.the  chakra hands negate the argument about the issue in the first place.at least now he wont need kbs to use the various rasengans but just his chakra hands instead.much more deadly as we saw with rasenrangan and rasenkyugan and the mini FRS.


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## Yuna (Jun 29, 2011)

Prototype said:


> There was no warning as to Naruto's new capabilities; they just came out of nowhere.


After years of Naruto going through training arcs while everyone else either just trains off-screens or gets new powers handed to them for free (Sasuke), why are you only griping about this phenomenon now that Naruto's started sprouting new powers?

Also, Naruto *just* had an off-screen training arc. I'm sick and tired of how every time Naruto is to show off a new Jutsu, he needs several chapters worth of "on-screen" training first. No, seriously, enough with the training arcs. It's enough to tell us that Naruto went through a training regimen and then show us his improvements.


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## DremolitoX (Jun 29, 2011)

Fucking naruto. I'm now hoping Madara beats the shit out of him, but he'll probably get turned into a fucking plant too.


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## jdbzkh (Jun 29, 2011)

stevensr123 said:


> Anyone starting  to notice that naruto is very similar to bleach? Villain gaining hax power after hax power after hax power. and to counter it the author is pulling ass pulls to counter this hax  by giving the hero a sudden and illogical power up and hax power?



So Naruto using Rasengan a move he learned way back when during part one is an ass pull? Since the start of Part two we've seen multiple rasengan variations, now Naruto simply has the ability to create chakra arms. This was something seen at the end of part one. Chakra arms and a chakra cloak something else that was seen in part one. These chakra arms/cloak are capable of performing multiple rasengan's and combo'd with his arms he was drawing the zetsu clones in and or unleashing multiple ones at the same time. 

There was nothing shown in this chapter that was out of the realm. This is simply the first time we've seen Naruto actually fight in RM and Kishi decided to give us a treat and introduce 3 new attacks. 3 attacks that have a solid foundation the rasengan something Naruto learned many, many, many chapters ago.


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## CrazyAries (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Guys guys guys ...
> 
> The problem isn't *why* he has new techniques. We're not stupid, we can *also* follow Kishimoto's thing that passes for logic to conclude how Naruto managed to develop them.
> 
> ...



I did not mind the initial Rasengan training tbh.  

I also did not mind this chapter, either.  Part of me was just glad to finally see Naruto use his new mode offensively.  However, now that he has used Tajuu Kage Bunshin, that may spell the end of others' participation in the war.  That is one big issue I have.

The other big issue I have is what you stated.  I have been saying for awhile that Kishimoto has given Naruto powerups in lieu of actual character development.  We had seen so little of Naruto in Part 2 and then he was suddenly given Sage Mode (and, oddly, I have grown to like it more, though).  Anyway, so little focus was given to Naruto preparing to become *a leader*, which should be one of the most important aspects -- if not the most important aspect -- of being Hokage.  He has to save the world, but as of yet, he has seen so relatively little of it.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 29, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> I agree, I think it's terrible the way Kishi just makes shit up on the fly these days. I also hate to see more redundant and borderline-pointless Rasengan variants (Mini FRS? Chakra arms that pull the enemy INTO Rasengan? Seriously? ).
> 
> Can't Naruto just go back to not being a Super Saiyan?




I would have to agree. I'm all for powerups but this is getting out of hand. Naruto is not even on the same planet as 99% of others now


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## Skeith (Jun 29, 2011)

You complain that Naruto doesn't had any new moves.

Then you complain when Naruto does have new moves.


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

Skeith said:


> You complain that Naruto doesn't had any new moves.
> 
> Then you complain when Naruto does have new moves.



Except Naruto doesn't have any new moves. 

Mastering control over his chakra cloak gave him the ability to do everything he did this very chapter. Rasengan is just Rasengan.


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## Sorin (Jun 29, 2011)

Skeith said:


> You complain that Naruto doesn't had any new moves.
> 
> Then you complain when Naruto does have new moves.



just to add

People complain that RS mode is useless and weak.

People complain that RS mode gives naruto too many jutsus.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Guys guys guys ...
> 
> The problem isn't *why* he has new techniques. We're not stupid, we can *also* follow Kishimoto's thing that passes for logic to conclude how Naruto managed to develop them.
> 
> ...



Actually, given the conversation Naruto had with Shikaku about Madara, it does seem like we got more character development mixed in there as well. Or at least enlightenment as to what Naruto thinks of Madara, which is basically the same thing.

It's also better than the alternative where Naruto masters the Kyuubi (who has been pretty constantly hyped as able to create natural disasters without too much effort) and doesn't actually gain a significant powerup.

We also got character development/focus in the damn training arc, or perhaps you missed the scenes where Naruto met his mother? Or when he fights Yami!Naruto? Or when he learns of Bee's backstory? How about the interaction with Iruka? There are plenty of touching scenes where we gain knowledge of Naruto, or Naruto develops on-panel.

Honestly I don't know where you'd pull a lack of development concerning Naruto from.


----------



## -JT- (Jun 29, 2011)

I facepalmed at the way Naruto showed three new techniques (ok, they're variants, but still) in the space of what? Five panels? Yet it's so much effort to give the Side Characters even ONE new jutsu...

This chapter was good but littered with some terrible moments.


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## Yuna (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> Except Naruto doesn't have any new moves.
> 
> Mastering control over his chakra cloak gave him the ability to do everything he did this very chapter. Rasengan is just Rasengan.


And Raiton's just Raiton, right?


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## Skeith (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> Except Naruto doesn't have any new moves.
> 
> Mastering control over his chakra cloak gave him the ability to do everything he did this very chapter. Rasengan is just Rasengan.



And Shargian is just Shargian yet everyone seems to wets their pants for Amaterasu, Tyuzomi, Susanoo, and Izangai.


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## navy (Jun 29, 2011)

-JT- said:


> Yet it's so much effort to give the Side Characters even ONE new jutsu...



About every rookie got/used a new technique in this arc.


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## Yagami1211 (Jun 29, 2011)

So we didn't get to see all the training to get the surprise of new techniques.
Now that we can see it, people say "But we didn't get to see this during trainings"


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## Kage (Jun 29, 2011)

he's just making a bunch of rasengans. OMG HOW'D HE DO EET.

he's just getting fancy with it while he's all golden.


----------



## Tengu (Jun 29, 2011)

Naruto using mini frs is also strange, he is using kiuuby's chakra now, right? but for frs he needs wind, does this mean Kiuuby is a wind user?
Or he can use his own chakra besides kiuuby's chakra.


----------



## Crona (Jun 29, 2011)

After Kisame's intel page, I facepalm'd the rest of the pages.


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

Yagami1211 said:


> So we didn't get to see all the training to get the surprise of new techniques.
> Now that we can see it, people say "But we didn't get to see this during trainings"



lol, what new techniques?


Chakra Arms, we already saw him master that.
Use chakra arms to assist in the creation of his Rasengans, was implied during the bit of time we witness him trying to complete the Tailed Beast Rasengan.
Rasengan, mastered it ages ago.
Oodama Rasengan, same thing; mastered ages ago.
Mini FRS? Okay, he expelled less chakra during it's creation, big whoop.

He did absolutely nothing which would require extra training.


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## TheWon (Jun 29, 2011)

It's like when Sage Naruto should up on the scene against Pain. They went all out with the over the top action. To give us a sense of how powerful he is now. Only to later have him pinned and saved by Hinata. They don't do a good job with new power levels in Naruto. In DBZ once Goku went SSJ, Gohan in SSJ2 and Goku in SSj3. They went into all out ass kicking mode until they called off the dawgs. We know this is not going to happen. Naruto is going to mess up or need a bring in a few chapters. Hide some where until he finally fights Madara, and Sasuke.


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## MCHammerdad (Jun 29, 2011)

What the Fuck!!!!


Naruto pulls no less then 2 new rasengan variations out of his ass.


Now he can use Kage Bunshin in RM!?!


Jesus Fucking Christ.


SSH is gonna shit a brick as he jizzes all over his keyboard.


If he doesnt collapse/die next chapter from all this chakra overuse then IDK anymore...


P.S. RM doens't have a chakra nature does it?

FRS requires futton chakra last time I checked.... Jesus...


----------



## Lelouch71 (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm still waiting for my S/T rasengan damn it


----------



## Tifa Lockhart (Jun 29, 2011)

People take offensive so easily. Get over it.


----------



## Omnipotent Pirate (Jun 29, 2011)

I wish i could just stop reading this manga. But I keep punishing myself and reading this thing.


----------



## Hero of Shadows (Jun 29, 2011)

lathia said:


> People complain about Sasuke doing new moves without any training, and now you complain about Naruto doing "new" moves with some (minimal) training?
> 
> I don't even...



 Well we can't go back with a time machine and tell people "Hey Naruto is also doing new jutsu with offscreen training so it's ok stop complaining" so the only way for the complaining to be balanced is that we complain about Naruto in the present.


----------



## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

MCHammerdad said:


> What the Fuck!!!!
> 
> 
> Naruto pulls no less then 2 new rasengan variations out of his ass.



How are they variants?

He created a few Rasengans, then an Oodama Rasengans and finally, expelled chakra from one finger instead of his entire hand when creating his FRS.

It's the same thing that he is always doing, expect he replaced his assisting Shadow Clones with Chakra Arms.



MCHammerdad said:


> Now he can use Kage Bunshin in RM!?!



No one said he couldn't, just that it was risky because the amount of chakra absorbed by the Kyuubi in a single moment would double/increase with each clone.



MCHammerdad said:


> Jesus Fucking Christ.
> 
> SSH is gonna shit a brick as he jizzes all over his keyboard.
> 
> If he doesnt collapse/die next chapter from all this chakra overuse then IDK anymore...



What did you ever know? Tell me why he should collapse next chapter.

Are you able to tell us how much chakra Naruto has? Of that amount, how much does the Kyuubi absorb in a single moment? How much of his chakra recovered during the few moments where he wasn't in his Tailed State? 

Without answering those questions, you don't have a leg to stand on. The author doesn't feel as if Naruto is nearing death quite yet, so maybe you're underestimating the amount of chakra Naruto has.


MCHammerdad said:


> P.S. RM doens't have a chakra nature does it?
> 
> FRS requires futton chakra last time I checked.... Jesus...



Naruto normally mixes his internal energies (physical and spiritual) to create chakra, then he changes the nature of his chakra to wind.

This time, Naruto drew a portion of the Kyuubi's chakra and then changed the nature of it to wind for his attack. 

The same thing he's always been doing, nothing new.


----------



## Axl Low (Jun 29, 2011)

Mael said:


> No...you're not alone.
> 
> This just confirmed that the rookies will become increasingly irrelevant unless your name is Sasuke or MAYBE Sakura...oh wait...



Sakura's biggest feat is that she snuck up on Sasuke
Or rather that is Sasuke's biggest fail

Have it your way


----------



## Chills Here (Jun 29, 2011)

But Sasuke is blessed with new eye techniques and chidoris and it's all good? Oh, I see.


----------



## Bonds (Jun 29, 2011)

I dont care about the Rasengans, but this whole "sensing hostility" bullshit is one of the most obvious and horrible plot devices I've seen in years.


----------



## Kankurette (Jun 29, 2011)

lathia said:


> People complain about Sasuke doing new moves without any training, and now you complain about Naruto doing "new" moves with some (minimal) training?
> 
> I don't even...


You've nailed it.


----------



## ♣Doflamingo♣ (Jun 29, 2011)

The only thing I found over the top in this chapter was the rasengan vacuum. That seemed to come out of Kishi's ass. Besides that, we've seen all this before, just not executed as well


----------



## HInch (Jun 29, 2011)

Chills Here said:


> But Sasuke is blessed with new eye techniques and chidoris and it's all good? Oh, I see.



One hundred times this.


----------



## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

♣Doflamingo♣ said:


> The only thing I found over the top in this chapter was the rasengan vacuum. That seemed to come out of Kishi's ass. Besides that, we've seen all this before, just not executed as well



LoL, what?

He created an Oodama Rasengan, then used his chakra arms to capture and smash Zetsus into it. It did not suck the Zetsus in.


----------



## Ayana (Jun 29, 2011)

I read the chapter and I felt offended as a fan of this manga. Cheap Mary Sue upgrades, new jutsus out of nowhere? What else?! A kekkei kenkai, no, give him two! And another demon! Or three! And people are happy with that crap? Is character development nothing nowadays? Probably yes if everyone drools over god like skills given to the character just like this.


----------



## hiko (Jun 29, 2011)

If you ever wanted definitive proof that Naruto is read by an awful lot of moronic dickheads this thread should be bookmarked for future reference!

There were no ass-pulls this chapter, we saw quite a while back now that Naruto was training to use his RM shroud as a means to control multiple chakra limbs. What we got this chapter was a highly imaginative application of those limbs, showing he can use them for multiple rasengans or just to pull multiple enemies into one giant rasengan. The mini rasenshuriken was nothing knew either, just an example of how Naruto's new "limbs" don't have to be on one scale.


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## αce (Jun 29, 2011)

Rasengan is becoming very annoying lately.
Unfortunately, at this point in this it is out of character for him not to use it.

Kishi should have just left it as his trump card that continually got stronger instead of a jutsu he spams occasionally.

Kirin in that sense will always be better then FRS.


----------



## zuul (Jun 29, 2011)

Ayana said:


> I read the chapter and I felt offended as a fan of this manga. Cheap Mary Sue upgrades, new jutsus out of nowhere? What else?! A kekkei kenkai, no, give him two! And another demon! Or three! And people are happy with that crap? Is character development nothing nowadays? Probably yes if everyone drools over god like skills given to the character just like this.



You a butthurt Sasuke fan !!!


----------



## sicmofo (Jun 29, 2011)

I really dont see the problem here.
Naruto has always had difficulty with chakra control before since he was just borrowing the Kyubi chakra hence the lengthy training sequences to master new jutsus.

Now Naruto almost has full command of the Kyubi chakra and we only see him having difficulty mastering the bijuu bomb since its his first experience with yin/yang chakra manipulation.

He's pretty much mastered rasengan and its elemental variants through LOTS of training and thanks to Bee's training he can manipulate chakra arms. Why is it so far-fetched? Do we really need another 2 months worth of training chapters to justify his abilities?

As for TKB in RM mode, well thats another story..


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## hiko (Jun 29, 2011)

If you ever wanted definitive proof that Naruto is read by an awful lot of moronic dickheads this thread should be bookmarked for future reference!

There were no ass-pulls this chapter, we saw quite a while back now that Naruto was training to use his RM shroud as a means to control multiple chakra limbs. What we got this chapter was a highly imaginative application of those limbs, showing he can use them to create multiple rasengans at once or to pull multiple enemies into one giant rasengan. The mini rasenshuriken was nothing new either, just an example of how Naruto's new "limbs" can be produced on a whole range of size scales.


----------



## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

Ayana said:


> I read the chapter and I felt offended as a fan of this manga. Cheap Mary Sue upgrades, new jutsus out of nowhere? What else?! A kekkei kenkai, no, give him two! And another demon! Or three! And people are happy with that crap? Is character development nothing nowadays? Probably yes if everyone drools over god like skills given to the character just like this.



For the last time, all he did was combine his control over his chakra cloak (chakra arms) with his Rasengan variants (Rasengan, Oodama Rasengan, FRS). With the FRS, he expelled less chakra while creating it.

He didn't use any new techniques, nothing that required him to train hours on end.


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## HInch (Jun 29, 2011)

Ayana said:


> I read the chapter and I felt offended as a fan of this manga. Cheap Mary Sue upgrades, new jutsus out of nowhere? What else?! A kekkei kenkai, no, give him two! And another demon! Or three! And people are happy with that crap? Is character development nothing nowadays? Probably yes if everyone drools over god like skills given to the character just like this.



Wow. So him combining skills he's shown in the past and taking a needed upgrade due to super Madara and soon to be "fapped over by anyone saying anything negatve in this thread" Sasuke means shit has hit the fan?

I sometimes wish there were no Naruto or Sasuke fans in Telegrams so we could just appreciate what is shown without the mob wars breaking out.


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## Ayana (Jun 29, 2011)

I am not a Sasuke fan if anyone's interested.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 29, 2011)

Wow, at this thread. This is nothing new, you guys. Kishimoto's been doing asspulls since Part 2 began. It started with Sasuke and continued to progress over to Naruto and Madara and has only gotten worse, if anything (hence the thread).

This just reminds me of that chapter where Sasuke randomly summoned that hawk....and some people, including me, were complaining about the asspull.

I'm just saying....we've all probably been reading this manga long enough now to know to expect this kind of crap from Kishimoto. 

What was probably the big facepalm moment for me was the last page where Naruto made mass shadow clones in Rikudou Mode....I thought this is a no-no and under no circumstances should he do that shit, but is Kishimoto ALREADY ret-conning the RM dangers????!


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## Scorpion (Jun 29, 2011)

I've more or less hated every single chapter of this manga since the end of the Pain invasion. Pretty much everything has been asspulled. But I continue reading it because I just want to find out how the story ends, and how all those little myths turn out (Tobi = Madara, 6th coffin = izuna, etc.). 

I really don't see why you'd facepalm so much at this chapter compared to the others. Naruto is just using Rasengan varients. Sure, Rasengan is just as annoying as Amaterasu nowadays, but no one bitched about it when Sasuke spammed it on Raikage. At least we got a fight for once, not three chapters of attempted speed blitzing.


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## αce (Jun 29, 2011)

> He didn't use any new techniques, nothing that required him to train hours on end.



Yeah, but mini rasenshuriken?
I would suspect that mini arms coming out of a chakra cloak would need some training to use the highest form of jutsu Naruto has...

Whatever, it's expected by now.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 29, 2011)

Besides the mini-FRS, which I wasn't much impressed by it, the others things were very cool. Specially Gamahiro.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 29, 2011)

Okay, just read some of the complaints ITT. So according to some of you folks, Naruto is under NO circumstances allowed to be clever with his technique incorporations? I guess not, because it's "too OOC" for you to accept. Only Saskue and Uchiha's and Raikage et. al., are allowed to do such clever things with their existing tech's and chakra types?

Sorry, just not accepting this form of logic....


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## BrokenBonds (Jun 29, 2011)

OH NOEZ MORE RASENGANS!!! THE PLOT IS RUINED THE WAR INSTANTLY SUCKS NOW WAAH WAAH!!

... Seriously people?


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Yeah, but mini rasenshuriken?
> I would suspect that mini arms coming out of a chakra cloak would need some training to use the highest form of jutsu Naruto has...
> 
> Whatever, it's expected by now.



In terms of control, Bee said that the chakra arms are no different from his regular arms.

So no, he wouldn't need to train to do something he is already capable of, just on a smaller scale.


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## vered (Jun 29, 2011)

the so called "new" things he displayed in this chapter were actually implied and hinted by kishi.the 6 combo rasengans were in a cover and the chakra arms  creating these rasengan combinations are not surprising either as we've seen during his training with Bee.people actually expected and hoped for most of it.but due to his uneven display against the Raikage,it lowered the expectations for this mode and as a result there was this big surprise when he actually showed what this mode was all about.
i think the thing that made people go WTH was mainly the mini finger FRS.


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## Huntress (Jun 29, 2011)

I liked this chapter, idc how many asspulls naruto does, hes the main character so im expecting it. It was cool to see zetsu doing some creepy fighting.
Its just nice to see the plot moving foreward, i felt the last few chapters dragged alot and were boring.


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## αce (Jun 29, 2011)

> OH NOEZ MORE RASENGANS!!! THE PLOT IS RUINED THE WAR INSTANTLY SUCKS NOW WAAH WAAH!!
> 
> ... Seriously people?



The war sucked the moment Sasori and Deidara got beaten.




> In terms of control, Bee said that the chakra arms are no different from his regular arms.
> 
> So no, he wouldn't need to train to do something he is already capable of, just on a smaller scale.



I see





And this forum will be really interesting when Sasuke is making amaterasu clones and throwing lightning arrows with Susano-o.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 29, 2011)

^Everyone on NF who appreciates funny entertainment will be eating up ALL of the drama in KL and Telegrams when the final fight gets here.


----------



## Draffut (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> Please elaborate, tell us why you feel that way.



Because needlessly spamming silly jutsu's panel after panel is uninteresting.

Especially since some like the Vacuum just look plain retarded and wouldn't work on anyone but fodder.

And a large frog summon to crush a couple of fodder zetsu?  Seriously?

Also, KB retcons.


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## Ayana (Jun 29, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> And this forum will be really interesting when Sasuke is making amaterasu clones and throwing lightning arrows with Susano-o.[/COLOR]



Cheap power ups are fine and dandy. Just as long as only Naruto gets them, anyone else will be flamed.


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## Pastelduck (Jun 29, 2011)

I will say it again: As a Naruto fan this chapter was epic.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jun 29, 2011)

And here we have a thread stating that Naruto just took epic to a whole new level. 

I said it once, and I'll say it again: 

*The rookies should be used to being forgotten by now.*

Whatever screentime they got, it's all in the past. They will fade into irrelevance, and appear only at the end of the manga when Naruto defeats Madara with yet another Rasengan variant.


----------



## vered (Jun 29, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> The war sucked the moment Sasori and Deidara got beaten.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i doubt people will complain that much.after this chapter anything sasuke will display as long as its not the Rinnegan would be acceptable.


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## nadinkrah (Jun 29, 2011)

It's not because of the rasengan people, it's how or why he can use it now. He talked to Kyuubi a few chapters ago and Kyuubi till looked pretty evil. Then Naruto shows he can use Rasengan/KB out of nowhere? Bull shit.


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## navy (Jun 29, 2011)

Nobody has patience these days. Kishi didnt forget about the chakra drain.


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## Berserk (Jun 29, 2011)

Ayana said:


> Cheap power ups are fine and dandy. Just as long as only Naruto gets them, anyone else will be flamed.



No, only retards who can't grasp things that have been shown before are being used again, will get flamed.

In this case, it's you.



nadinkrah said:


> It's not because of the rasengan people, it's how or why he can use it now. He talked to Kyuubi a few chapters ago and Kyuubi till looked pretty evil. Then Naruto shows he can use Rasengan/KB out of nowhere? Bull shit.



Reading isn't one of your strong point, is it?  He has a portion of Kyubbi chakra he can use.  Just not full control like Bee.


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## αce (Jun 29, 2011)

> No, only retards that can't grasp how things that have been shown before are used again will get flamed.
> 
> In this case, it's you.



Woah. Chill.


In my case, I'm just tired of seeing rasengan.
It got old very fast.


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Because needlessly spamming silly jutsu's panel after panel is uninteresting.
> 
> Especially since some like the Vacuum just look plain retarded and wouldn't work on anyone but fodder.
> 
> And a large frog summon to crush a couple of fodder zetsu?  Seriously?



Okay, cannot knock you for your opinion.



Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Also, KB retcons.



Where is the retcon?

Was it said he was physically unable to use Shadow Clones, or that he would die the very moment he created one/many? 

No.

Only that each clone he creates increases the amount of chakra the Kyuubi is absorbing from Naruto at a single moment, because he's pulling from more than one source at a time. Lastly, the moment all his chakra is absorbed, he'll die instantly.

Naruto's chakra hasn't run out yet.



♠Ace♠ said:


> I see
> 
> And this forum will be really interesting when Sasuke is making amaterasu clones and throwing lightning arrows with Susano-o.



Shaping Amaterasu into a clone or adding his lighting nature to his Susanoo arrows would be fuckin' awesome.

But you're right, the forum will become interesting, and here I will be doing exactly what I'm doing now.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 29, 2011)

Ayana said:


> Cheap power ups are fine and dandy. Just as long as only Naruto gets them, anyone else will be flamed.


Oh you....we all know that Naruto doesn't get any slack from NF when it comes to free power-ups, just like any other character in this manga. And like any other character, there's gonna be the fanboys and fangirls always defending their favorite from the haters.

Admit it, you're just mad because you can't stand this fictional character and all of the spotlight treatment he's receiving now. I'd even reckon that you're like me and are so jaded with this entire fucking thing that you complain just to complain!


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## αce (Jun 29, 2011)

> And a large frog summon to crush a couple of fodder zetsu? Seriously?





Best part of the fight.
If you are going to win, make sure it's a stomp


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> Naruto's chakra hasn't run out yet.



But it will. Very soon.

Then another case of the troll will emerge on NF.


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> But it will. Very soon.
> 
> Then another case of the troll will emerge on NF.



Run out? Doubt he's going to die.

Though, it would be interesting.


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## Ayana (Jun 29, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> Oh you....we all know that Naruto doesn't get any slack from NF when it comes to free power-ups, just like any other character in this manga. And like any other character, there's gonna be the fanboys and fangirls always defending their favorite from the haters.
> 
> Admit it, you're just mad because you can't stand this fictional character and all of the spotlight treatment he's receiving now. I'd even reckon that you're like me and are so jaded with this entire fucking thing that you complain just to complain!


Of course, I am not offended by crap writing, I just like to bitch.


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## nightmaremage99 (Jun 29, 2011)

Nothing wrong with Naruto actually making use of his chakra arms besides grabbing people and throwing them around. This should have been expected.

However... mini-rasenshuriken? What? Really? Wtf? Wasn't the rasenshuriken supposed to be a jutsu that's ridiculously difficult to maintain?

And the rasengan vacuum thing is just silly.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jun 29, 2011)

You guys know me, I'm a super positive oriented guy, right? Riiiiiiiight?

Right, so with that straightened out, let's give this topic a positive spin.

*What should happen to salvage what's left to save of the story* (for those of us who think this is not the right direction)? Is it still possible?

Personally, I think the possibility exists but the track record is poor. Kishimoto could stop the powerinflations (amongst other things) if Naruto got caught somehow, and the focus shifted to soem minor characters.

one conceivable way would be for Sasuke to actually defeat Naruto and catch him, and some of the minor characters band together to start some kind of rescue operation against the will of the rest of the alliance who think it's a lost cause and better to defend Bee from that point on.

If this happened, I could be interested a bit, once more. I thought personally the Sasuke retrieval arc was one of the highlights of part 1, and similarly arcs like these at the beginning of Bleach were also structured a bit like that and happened to be the best too.

Does Kishimoto have it in him? I wouldn't put it past him, but it seems unlikely at this point since every time he has the choice between teamwork oriented arc or powering up either Naruto or Sasuke he goes for the latter. 
It's a trend he's just going for. Danzou and a revolution arc, was a wasted potential that made room for Sasuke's growth, Naruto being caught by Pain and the village having to save Naruto was turned around for Naruto's prophecy backstory, the track record is poor.

But the possibility exists.


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## navy (Jun 29, 2011)

nightmaremage99 said:


> ?
> 
> And the rasengan vacuum thing is just silly.



Why? Naruto makes a big rasengan then pulls people in with his arms...


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## αce (Jun 29, 2011)

> Why? Naruto makes a big rasengan then pulls people in with his arms...



...................................


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 29, 2011)

Klue said:


> Run out? Doubt he's going to die.
> 
> Though, it would be interesting.



He won't die, but I suspect he'll come within an inch of his life. In which he'll need to negotiate with the Kyuubi for "MOAR PAOWA!"


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 29, 2011)

i agree

the simple fact that naruto and sasuke are recieving endless amount of techniques and powerups out of nowhere is just ridiculous.

i mean naruto with SM and sasuke with MS were already damn powerful, but RM has literally made naruto > everyone

and sasuke's EMS clearly has to be on equal footing with RM naruto which makes it stupid 

saying that, naruto still hasnt even combined SM and RM yet...


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## Klue (Jun 29, 2011)

nightmaremage99 said:


> However... mini-rasenshuriken? What? Really? Wtf? Wasn't the rasenshuriken supposed to be a jutsu that's ridiculously difficult to maintain?



Naruto completed the jutsu since his battle with Kakuzu. The miniature version follows the same creation formula, expect he uses less of his chakra (expelling from the Tenketsu in his finger instead of his entire hand) - everything else is the same.



nightmaremage99 said:


> And the rasengan vacuum thing is just silly.



Grabbing Zetsus and smashing them into his Oodama Rasengan is silly?


----------



## Arsecynic (Jun 29, 2011)

For all the people moaning about the rookies, stop acting as if it's new news. They've been fodder throughout the whole of part 2 (maybe excluding Shikamaru, and that pink haired bitch). 

If anything, this chapter just put Madara in an even more powerful position, with Naruto running right into the trap. & if you're moaning about Naruto transforming into GARuto (last seen in the Pein invasion), it's gonna need something that haxxx to take down Madara, who is ridiculously powerful enough.


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## B32 (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Seems to be a weekly event lately that people complain about the newest manga chapter. But not so much this time. Even though to me, this seems like the most offensive one to my tastes, in months. At least since the end of the Pain invasion arc.
> 
> Usually I can tolerate the dumbing down of the plot. But this chapter was just so much over the top with the silly ass-grabs the whole time. *Seriously what's the point of reading this when the writer can just make up some new overpowered technique whenever he feels like it, to solve whatever problem there is?*
> To me, the story has been on that downward spiral ever since the introduction of Sage Mode and all the previously unmentioned benefits it gave the main character, and things have just been piling up ever since.
> ...



So i guess Sasuke pulling Manda out of his ass in the Deidara fight or summoning a Eagle in the Danzo battle wasn't offensive?! Kish has been doing this for a while now, surprised reluctant readers haven't come to expect this by now.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jun 29, 2011)

Yeah I didn't actually go ahead and list all the moments where Kishimoto made a poor choice on behalf of Sasuke or Naruto for obvious reasons of time/effort.


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## vagnard (Jun 29, 2011)

I told it already. Naruto's final jutsu is a Genkidama Rasengan


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 29, 2011)

Naruto combined his new abilities with his old....that's all there's to it :amazed. It is truly unbelievable (or at this point believable ) how some "fans" continue to try and complicate relatively simple things that even an 8-year old could comprehend.


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## izzyisozaki (Jun 29, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> In that case, Naruto should wittle down the potential harm that Sasuke could cause to others. If Sasuke wants to be evil, Naruto does need to accept that and prepare himself to stop him from acting it out on innocent people.


 Isn't this the entire point of Naruto stopping Sasuke from doing anything to Konoha?



> Naruto does put a lot of his own sense of worth into Sasuke, and the worth of his goals though. That's a stated fact. It compromises his character, and compromises the premise of going after Sasuke. You really can't deny the obsessive behavior of Naruto is somewhat selfish, and destructive. Well, you can...but you'd be wrong.


He feels 'weak', cos not only does his nindo of keeping his promises falters,  he can't even get it done with so he can dedicate time to his other goals. He does not _enjoy_ putting his other goals second, ie becoming hokage and pursuing Sakura.    This is why he's a selfless character - the fact he has his own emotional involvement with Sasuke doesn't take away these factors. He doesn't deserve to be called selfish because he wants to reach out emotionally to Sasuke to the very end. He isn't even expecting Sasuke to stop hating anymore. He's taking it all on himself, even his father's legacy, without one fucking complaint. A selfish person doesn't seek understanding or a greater good. I'm sorry, they don't. Naruto could have dropped the Sasuke issue countless times to his own benefit. HUGE benefit I must say.  Real selfish behavior is declaredly at the expense of others and not one's own.


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 29, 2011)

"Naruto can't use KB at all in this form! It would make it way too unstable!"

Now this happened


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## silenceofthelambs (Jun 29, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> "Naruto can't use KB at all in this form! It would make it way too unstable!"
> 
> Now this happened



A day in the life.


----------



## Chaelius (Jun 29, 2011)

Jord@n said:


> GARuto



No.

**


----------



## G-Man (Jun 29, 2011)

lathia said:


> People complain about Sasuke doing new moves without any training, and now you complain about Naruto doing "new" moves with some (minimal) training?
> 
> I don't even...



Yeah, the haters are being retarded now:

We know RM Naruto can make chakra arms.

We know he can use the chakra arms to make Rasengan and it's variants.

So why the hell is it an "ass-pull" if he's exploiting these facts to make new Rasengan variants on the fly?  Did anyone remember Part 1 of the manga where he would make little tweaks to jutsu he knew to make new moves (even if they were lackluster tweaks like Naruto Rendan and Shuriken From All Sides)?

The only real ass-pulls are mini-FRS and multiple clones, but even then not so much because we know he uses the chakra arms in place of actual clones.  It's only a bit of a stretch because creating one mini-arm for shape manipulation and one for nature mainulation and both of them coming from the same finger sounds like it should be absurdly complicated.  The real issue is him making so many clones and not instantly burning through Rikudou Mode, but even that is forgiveable given how much raw power RM is supposed to give him.

My only real lament is it's hideous to look at.  I could understand if this was some sort of monster created from Naruto's cells or the Kyuubi taking on a humanoid form to fight Naruto in his own mind,  (then it's freakish appearance would make it more intimidating), but seeing the main character growing energy tentacles to tentacle-rape naked plant men with huge energy balls is just unsightly no matter how you look at it!!


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2011)

The OP should have his thread-making privileges completely taken away, honestly what are you people reading? Outside of the one "Vacuum" attack, I don't see why people are getting bent out of shape. Controlling the Kyuubi's power was the goal from the first bloody chapter, even if it wasn't stated explicitly. What do you people think was gonna happen?

It's funny how Sasuke fans are freaking out about how Naruto can perform some rasengan variants as opposed to Sasuke who just legitimately pulls stuff from his asshole. I always thought that Naruto would progress stronger and had theories around how this new form would effect his fighting, if you can't think or are blinded by favouritism, then stop reading.

The real question here should be, what the hell is Kishimoto going to do to Sasuke and how much more haxed he will make him...


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## Motochika (Jun 29, 2011)

Usually I like the throwing in of new techinques however the whole kage bushin thing is too much. Especially when it was made a big deal that Naruto couldn't use them do to self harm. 

As noted.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Sorin (Jun 29, 2011)

Btw that's not FRS.it's the small version or rasenshuriken.It's the one used in combination with Yamato's water jutsu to defend Kakashi and co from Kakuzu's katon+futon combo.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2011)

Sorin said:


> Btw that's not FRS.it's the small version or rasenshuriken.It's the one used in combination with Yamato's water jutsu to defend Kakashi and co from Kakuzu's katon+futon combo.


I'd have to agree, because there was no sounds listed or accompanying the attack, which the FRS used against Pain is mostly infamously known for.


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## Chaelius (Jun 29, 2011)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> It's funny how Sasuke fans



People need to stop with this annoying shit


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2011)

Chaelius said:


> People need to stop with this annoying shit


People wouldn't say it, if it wasn't true, all of them got bent out of shape b/c Naruto introduced a few variants to stuff he's already done but it's okay when Sasuke can pull a Hawk out of his ass...


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## Sorin (Jun 29, 2011)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> I'd have to agree, because there was no sounds listed or accompanying the attack, which the FRS used against Pain is mostly infamously known for.



Good call.I didn't even think of that.Well there you have it.


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## Marco (Jun 29, 2011)

Mini rasenshuriken made me lol.


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## Hunted by sister (Jun 29, 2011)

[sarcasm]Oh yeah, Rasengan, what the fuck is this, where did it come from?!

And those chakra arms! What the hell?! We've *never* seen those from a Jinchuuriki before! The fact Naruto can almost completly control Kyuubi is surely not important here. [/sarcasm]

So yeah. Naruto combined some new abilities with his old techs. And... why are people bitching? Are people blind/retarded/only remember what happened last chapter?

And where the fuck have you been for past 400 chapters, Kishi does this shit all the time.

//HbS


----------



## Soca (Jun 29, 2011)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> Naruto combined his new abilities with his old....that's all there's to it :amazed. It is truly unbelievable (or at this point believable ) how some "fans" continue to try and complicate relatively simple things that even an 8-year old could comprehend.



are you saying you're 8? you must be a genius sir 
why did you put fans in quotations what the fuck? are you saying their not dedicated enough to pass over kishi's flaws or something? look man the author isn't perfect let some people have their opinion on what's going on


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2011)

Tbh I liked the finger FRS as shitty as it is. I still liked it. 
Other shit looked retarded tho.


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## Chaelius (Jun 29, 2011)

SoLiOZuZ said:


> People wouldn't say it, if it wasn't true, *all of them* got bent out of shape b/c Naruto introduced a few variants to stuff he's already done but it's okay when Sasuke can pull a Hawk out of his ass...



Again, stop making retarded generalizations.


Or should I start saying all Naruto fans got bent out of shape when Sasuke started using his MS saying he was haxxed and a spammer and are now flipping their shit for Naruto's god mode powers and rasengan/KB spam #213214 

These shit generalizations only add fuel to never ending fandom wars...


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## Jotun (Jun 29, 2011)

At this point all you can do is have fun with the manga. Everyone was expecting Naruto to be good after the timeskip, but he was just shit compared to Sasuke up until a certain point. If Kishi had balanced the power ups less people would be bothered.


----------



## Omnipotent Pirate (Jun 29, 2011)

It's just getting boring with naruto. rasangan is cool, but I'd like to see something else once in a while. It would be cool to see naruto use needle jizo or something new that isn't a rasengan.


----------



## Kage (Jun 29, 2011)

Chaelius said:


> These shit generalizations only add fuel to never ending fandom wars...



and yet here we are 


there is no bigger person when it comes to generalizations, especially during wanking periods. the other side of the spectrum *will be no better* when the opportunity comes along and i won't be surprised to see the _mysterious_ absence of demands on not being lumped into one.


----------



## Mangetsu126 (Jun 29, 2011)

oh no, main character evolves his moves with his new chakra and becomes stronger!

How dare you kishi!!!! why didnt you make Kiba the savior


----------



## Aleph-1 (Jun 29, 2011)

Chaelius said:


> No.
> 
> **


Yes. Garuto has happened and is only going to continue to happen until this shitty war ends........you're gonna have to deal at some point so might as well accept it sooner than later. 



Klue said:


> Naruto completed the jutsu since his battle with Kakuzu. The miniature version follows the same creation formula, expect he uses less of his chakra (expelling from the Tenketsu in his finger instead of his entire hand) - everything else is the same.


Everything else is the same except now all Garuto has to do is point a mini rasengan at you with one finger, like Itachi points his tsukiyomi at you.



Klue said:


> Grabbing Zetsus and smashing them into his Oodama Rasengan is silly?


It's silly awesome. Now Naruto just has to grab his opponents and throw them into his brand new goddamn rasengan woodchipper like some retarded Fargo meets DBZ crap.


----------



## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 29, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> are you saying you're 8? you must be a genius sir
> why did you put fans in quotations what the fuck? are you saying their not dedicated enough to pass over kishi's flaws or something? look man the author isn't perfect *let some people have their opinion on what's going on*



If having an opinion = twisting facts then be my guest


----------



## Distance (Jun 29, 2011)

To be honest I understand completely what the OP is saying, but I'm just going to go with the flow with this manga now. There is really no point in taking the manga that much seriously any more.


----------



## Chaelius (Jun 29, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> Yes. Garuto has happened and is only going to continue to happen until this shitty war ends........you're gonna have to deal at some point so might as well accept it sooner than later.



Stop disrespecting the gar legacy by attaching it to Naruto, no character in this series except maybe Kisame is gar


----------



## LouDAgreat (Jun 29, 2011)

I'm enjoying it. I hope Kishi has more hax powers up his sleeve for characters. It'll be very entertaining to see how they are overcome.


----------



## Csdabest (Jun 29, 2011)

The only thing I disaproved of was the mini chakra arm fingers creating a mini frs. Also wtf happen to the drawback of using kb much less taijuu kb. That was bs. Unless sealing kyuubi prevents that temporarily. Naruto has trouble making frs wit with 2 clones now he can make it with two hands and a finger. Ihwell. Kishi doing this is just gonna have to make ems godly or sasuke gets some insane new doujutsu. And combining spiritial energy brings his chakra strength stronger than cs2. He is reaching his true potential naturally. His chakra are now darker than his cs2. And feel like. Itachi chakra will make his chakra stronger than his cs2 as well as his body. And his eyes murgiung should. Strengthen his eyes and increasse his perception.. And he gets new techniques. And copying and we know spacetime can be spawned from sharingan and ms. Kakashi seems to be almost instantaneous now. Madara through regular sharingan seems to take a second. But maybe through ms or ems it can be instantaneous. Just the more naruto shows. The more hax sasuke will be.


----------



## Soca (Jun 29, 2011)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> If having an opinion = twisting facts then be my guest



 exactly let them lol ignore it if it bugs you even though most of it is true


----------



## Judecious (Jun 29, 2011)

I enjoyed the naruto parts so yeah


----------



## CrazyAries (Jun 29, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> And here we have a thread stating that Naruto just took epic to a whole new level.
> 
> I said it once, and I'll say it again:
> 
> ...



It was probably in this thread, but someone said something about an S/T Rasengan.


----------



## moezee (Jun 29, 2011)

Dude im loving it right now i dont have to wait two years to see Naruto get stronger.It about fucking time we see some real progress in Naruto period.Iv been pushing naruto on the back burner for a couple of months now and finale we get some real action you wanna cry about it being hexed.I'm pretty sure you'll see Sasuke soon.Going cold turkey is hard on SASUKE lovers..


----------



## Saturday (Jun 29, 2011)

My friends and I all thought the chapter was great. 

Naruto being awesome.

And how can some of you complain that you're tired of seeing Naruto. He was barely in the manga for awhile.


----------



## causesobad (Jun 29, 2011)

So after all those training and new power Naruto should just stay the same with his previous jutsus huh? And they are not even completely new jutsus in the first place, just some new variants of rasengan. Naruto has one of the most logical power development in this series and you guys still complain like sour grapes. We have this Rikudou Sennin guy out of nowhere with some ultimate hax powers to justify the origin of powers of another out-of nowhere immortal 100-year-old pedo and people all kiss his ass. Mr Saucecake has new jutsus pulling out of his ass and you guys defend him to death. Double standard much, huh?


----------



## nadinkrah (Jun 29, 2011)

It's not complaining when someone doesn't see the manga the same way you do. Get over it


----------



## HInch (Jun 29, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tbh I liked the finger FRS as shitty as it is. I still liked it.
> Other shit looked retarded tho.



I don't get it. Why do people not like it? It's a subtle move to take a leg away in order to immobilize the enemy for an otherwise possibly dodge-able summon. Do people not like it because it isn't DBZ level? It showed smarts, cunning and tactical thinking.


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 29, 2011)

HInch said:


> I don't get it. Why do people not like it? It's a subtle move to take a leg away in order to immobilize the enemy for an otherwise possibly dodge-able summon. Do people not like it because it isn't DBZ level? It showed smarts, cunning and tactical thinking.



 it's because it's just another rasengan... people are just fucking tired of kakebunshins and rasengans bro.


----------



## hiko (Jun 29, 2011)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> Naruto combined his new abilities with his old....that's all there's to it :amazed. It is truly unbelievable (or at this point believable ) how some "fans" continue to try and complicate relatively simple things that even an 8-year old could comprehend.


Exactly! Because at the end of the day this IS a comic for 8yr olds! It's absolutely astounding that what we have here is a forum populated by teens and adults who don't even have the the mental acuity to understand what the hell is presented to them in the most obvious, basic of ways! But that's Naruto fandom for you, if this was Bleach you could hear the fapping from anywhere on the globe because of how EPIC the main character was being.


----------



## Doom Katon (Jun 29, 2011)

I loved this chapter, it was great seeing Naruto in total control.  When he summoned the toad I was OMG OMG OMG OMG YES!!!!! I had fun reading this chapter and I cant wait to see what happens next, some of you should chill.


----------



## Soca (Jun 29, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> it's because it's just another rasengan... people are just fucking tired of kakebunshins and rasengans bro.



advice number 1 and probably the only advice you'll get

*deal with it *lol that's it, terribly sorry


----------



## Prototype (Jun 29, 2011)

hiko said:


> Exactly! Because at the end of the day this IS a comic for 8yr olds! It's absolutely astounding that what we have here is a forum populated by teens and adults who don't even have the the mental acuity to understand what the hell is presented to them in the most obvious, basic of ways! But that's Naruto fandom for you, if this was Bleach you could hear the fapping from anywhere on the globe because of how EPIC the main character was being.



The manga is geared towards young adults.


----------



## HInch (Jun 29, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> it's because it's just another rasengan... people are just fucking tired of kakebunshins and rasengans bro.



It's a rasenshurikan used as its namesake. It was used as a ninja tool in order to disable an enemy for the porpuse of the finishing working. In that sense it's far away from his usual rasengan ideals.

The mini-me is the least like any of his skills, and used so much out of character. I'd have thought this would garner praise.


----------



## BXisAWOL (Jun 29, 2011)

This series has gone down the shitter ever since Shippuden.


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## Soca (Jun 29, 2011)

BXisAWOL said:


> This series has gone down the shitter ever since Shippuden.



man I'm with you all the way but read the thread or pay attention to this section because half of the fans are thinking that at the moment but there's no need to keep reinstating it. tryna help you out


----------



## Aldric (Jun 29, 2011)

Sorin said:


> Btw that's not FRS.it's the small version or rasenshuriken.It's the one used in combination with Yamato's water jutsu to defend Kakashi and co from Kakuzu's katon+futon combo.



Naruto didn't use rasenshuriken in his combo jutsu against Yamato, he used a fuuton rasengan


----------



## Sorin (Jun 29, 2011)

Aldric said:


> Naruto didn't use rasenshuriken in his combo jutsu against Yamato, he used a fuuton rasengan



opps my bad.

stated by Shee

Looks like it was really a FRS.I was fooled by not seeing its entire name(futon rasenshuriken) and thinking that the one used in the Zombie bros arc was called simply rasenshuriken.But you're right.


----------



## Kirin (Jun 29, 2011)

causesobad said:


> So after all those training and new power Naruto should just stay the same with his previous jutsus huh? And they are not even completely new jutsus in the first place, just some new variants of rasengan. Naruto has one of the most logical power development in this series and you guys still complain like sour grapes. We have this Rikudou Sennin guy out of nowhere with some ultimate hax powers to justify the origin of powers of another out-of nowhere immortal 100-year-old pedo and people all kiss his ass. Mr Saucecake has new jutsus pulling out of his ass and you guys defend him to death. Double standard much, huh?



Naruto is supposed to be the hard-working and training type, we didn't see him training those moves he performed against the Zetsus and out nowhere he can fight on the Kyubbi Mode like an expert. Rikudou Sennin is dead and we won't probably see him having a battle, he is more like a benchmark on the story. And Sasuke, he has always trained off panel or during fights as stated by Madara himself, and it's not weird he can pull out jutsus. At least, on him this kind of development has been consistent through the manga. So, it is kind of bothering that after years Sasuke being called spammer, that he doesn't train and he pulls out jutsus at the last moment; Naruto is doing almost the same and he is praised for it. 

I don't mind much really about Naruto's powers currently because Sasuke will appear sooner or later and he will get enough power to match him. Kage Bunshins and Rasengans are not surprising anymore not matter how Kishimoto portrays them, at least for me.


----------



## Berserk (Jun 29, 2011)

One thing's for sure, most of you whiners and moaners don't read Naruto's parts in this manga.  I mean, who else but these whiners would complain about "asspulls" and "new techs" that have already been shown?  Variations?!  God forbid he do what he's good at.

I'm not the biggest fan of this manga, but it seems like some whiners will bitch and moan for the sake of it.


----------



## hiko (Jun 29, 2011)

Prototype said:


> The manga is geared towards young adults.


Naruto is as shounen as they come, which is convenient seeing as it is published in Shounen Jump, which means that while its core audience are now young adults who have "grown up" readin it, it is still written so that 6-16yr old demographic can follow it.


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## general-david (Jun 29, 2011)

The only bit i cringed at was the mini FRS on Naruto's finger......I just thought...really?? wtf? And I actually let out a laugh...I mean come on...a mini FRS on his finger, with two little Kyuubi arms..


----------



## Raiden (Jun 29, 2011)

general-david said:


> The only bit i cringed at was the mini FRS on Naruto's finger......I just thought...really?? wtf? And I actually let out a laugh...I mean come on...a mini FRS on his finger, with two little Kyuubi arms..



I agree. That was a bit too much. Nevertheless interesting.

No complaints here. I was particularly tired of seeing Naruto struggle. He can no engage in the fast paced exciting fights that he could only entertain fans like myself with with Sage Mode.


----------



## Brainsucker (Jun 29, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Seems to be a weekly event lately that people complain about the newest manga chapter. But not so much this time. Even though to me, this seems like the most offensive one to my tastes, in months. At least since the end of the Pain invasion arc.
> 
> Usually I can tolerate the dumbing down of the plot. But this chapter was just so much over the top with the silly ass-grabs the whole time. Seriously what's the point of reading this when the writer can just make up some new overpowered technique whenever he feels like it, to solve whatever problem there is?
> To me, the story has been on that downward spiral ever since the introduction of Sage Mode and all the previously unmentioned benefits it gave the main character, and things have just been piling up ever since.
> ...



or maybe you're too old to read shounen? I have no problem with these sudden power up by Naruto. It is good, comparing to read about the secondary characters fought zombie in the war (for me, the way Kishi implement the war arc is too dragging, so I love how he push fast forward button to focus on the main character again). But well, everyone have their own taste.


----------



## Tion (Jun 29, 2011)

Kirin said:


> So, it is kind of bothering that after years Sasuke being called spammer, that he doesn't train and he pulls out jutsus at the last moment; Naruto is doing almost the same and he is praised for it.


Well considering that Sasuke's stock and trade has been implanted into him via third party and we just had that entire previous arc witnessing Naruto training with RM, I don't think you can really say Naruto pulled shit out of his arse sans training. 

Obviously Naruto's  just 'innovatively' combining old techniques with new techniques --->  a bijillion Rasengan variants in RM. I'm going to assume he trained/mastered a lot of his techniques off panel. Lol, I don't see why people are flipping their shit. This has been happening for the past 400 chapters.


----------



## Enclave (Jun 29, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> Also wtf happen to the drawback of using kb much less taijuu kb. That was bs.



The drawback is still there, just Naruto is ignoring it for the moment.  It's OBVIOUSLY going to bite him in the ass at some point so people REALLY need to stop complaining about that.

Anyways, everything he did this chapter made sense based on his development.  They're all minor variations on what he was already capable of.  This thread shouldn't even exist.


----------



## Summers (Jun 29, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> Okay, just read some of the complaints ITT. So according to some of you folks, Naruto is under NO circumstances allowed to be clever with his technique incorporations? I guess not, because it's "too OOC" for you to accept. Only Saskue and Uchiha's and Raikage et. al., are allowed to do such clever things with their existing tech's and chakra types?
> 
> Sorry, just not accepting this form of logic....





BrokenBonds said:


> OH NOEZ MORE RASENGANS!!! THE PLOT IS RUINED THE WAR INSTANTLY SUCKS NOW WAAH WAAH!!
> 
> ... Seriously people?



Agreed. As awesome as it was to see Naruto to do this its not in any way an ass-pull, for heavens sake all it is, was his him using chakra arms and rasangens. We saw him do this on the cover spread a while back it was foreshadowed.

Also the mechanics of RM was explained by bee, The cloak is an extension of his body he create and use the chakra from anywhere, we also knew that it could make multiple chakra arms, we saw that in training we saw it back with KN4.
KB? He can use it, it just drains his chakra at a faster rate, not retcon, kyuubi is draining Naruto's chakra from Behind a seal, and we are assuming Kyuubi wants to kill Naruto and itself.
Mini rasenshuriken, Naruto can make bigger rasengans, he can make rasenshurken expand, he can use it like he did with kyuubi, but smaller ones is ridiculous?

Everything that we have seen can be explained.


----------



## Kool-Aid (Jun 29, 2011)

naruto's a fanfic now.

he had fucking hands coming out of his ass. 
1


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 30, 2011)

> This is why he's a selfless character - the fact he has his own emotional involvement with Sasuke doesn't take away these factors. He doesn't deserve to be called selfish because he wants to reach out emotionally to Sasuke to the very end. He isn't even expecting Sasuke to stop hating anymore. He's taking it all on himself, even his father's legacy, without one fucking complaint. A selfish person doesn't seek understanding or a greater good. I'm sorry, they don't. Naruto could have dropped the Sasuke issue countless times to his own benefit. HUGE benefit I must say. Real selfish behavior is declaredly at the expense of others and not one's own.



His worst qualities come to surface when it's about Sasuke. What he did with Kakashi at the Summit for example, that was selfish. Not to mention just being a dick. He really had no justification for it. He wants to have it his way rather than what could probably benefit everyone else. It's because he puts so much stock into it, and he seemingly puts Sasuke on an undeserved pedestal that makes him come off as being selfish when it comes to the issue of Sasuke. Otherwise, he's pretty selfless, but not when it comes to Sasuke once again. He's clearly not rational about it, and comes off as being a little deranged on the issue even...


----------



## Bane (Jun 30, 2011)

I hate that kishi hasnt sucked up his pride and shown that naruto prefers hinata over sakura already


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jun 30, 2011)

Chaelius said:


> Again, stop making retarded generalizations.
> 
> 
> Or should I start saying all Naruto fans got bent out of shape when Sasuke started using his MS saying he was haxxed and a spammer and are now flipping their shit for Naruto's god mode powers and rasengan/KB spam #213214
> ...


Ok, I'm not taking back what I said but since you clearly want to be "special" I'll change my belief from "ALL" to "MOST" and by that I mean roughly 90% of the tards running a muck here, you would know if you met them in the battledome and you would know if you were negged as many times as I have been by them...not for hating the character simply because I disagree on am issue.

So in short, unless you have comparable TnJ to Naruto, fandom wars are never-ending...


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 30, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His worst qualities come to surface when it's about Sasuke. What he did with Kakashi at the Summit for example, that was selfish. Not to mention just being a dick. He really had no justification for it. He wants to have it his way rather than what could probably benefit everyone else. It's because he puts so much stock into it, and he seemingly puts Sasuke on an undeserved pedestal that makes him come off as being selfish when it comes to the issue of Sasuke. Otherwise, he's pretty selfless, but not when it comes to Sasuke once again. He's clearly not rational about it, and comes off as being a little deranged on the issue even...



Naruto wasn't able to explain his behavior after the death of Itachi so  when Sasuke crossed the line in the Kage arc he had some serious doubts  about what he was supposed to do about him. It's not like he would have been going about it that differently, even in regards to Kabuto he doesn't talk about killing (in the Sasuke vs Deidara arc) rather than throwing him into Konoha's prison, and he definitely has committed enough atrocities and things against Naruto. And he's the one who was summoned to protect the village last time, he's obviously the best person to take care of Sasuke if he attacks the village. All he could want is another Hinata.


----------



## Milkshake (Jun 30, 2011)

Kool-Aid said:


> naruto's a fanfic now.
> 
> he had fucking hands coming out of his ass.
> Link removed



omg 

is this what's happening in naruto

i am laughing


----------



## Jihad Uzamaki (Jun 30, 2011)

Eyeshield_20 said:


> I think sasuke's power up was worse. Even Madara didn't know where sasuke learned that hawk summoning .



This, tho. And people trying to explain it away had me "LOLOLOL" into the weekend. 

Seriously, tho? People are upset because the story focuses on Naruto or the other characters aren't as powerful as Naruto? Are we READING the same story? 

Its called NARUTO. The story is ABOUT NARUTO. Not Rock Lee. No Neji. Not 1010. Not Darui. Not *"insert character X I REALLY REALLY like"* here. Kishi is not writing the manga for you to battledome, or compare "feats" (the fuck?) or argue who would win in a fight if X conditions are met. Your pissing YOURSELVES off not simply reading the manga and trying to critique based on the storyline. 

Sheesh. 

Nothing happened in this chapter we weren't already foreshadowed about, and the complaining has now devolved into outright WHINING. Its not conducive to good conversation anymore. 

Get over yourselves. Seriously. 


JihaD


----------



## Skeith (Jun 30, 2011)

Jihad Uzamaki said:


> This, tho. And people trying to explain it away had me "LOLOLOL" into the weekend.
> 
> Seriously, tho? People are upset because the story focuses on Naruto or the other characters aren't as powerful as Naruto? Are we READING the same story?
> 
> ...



You say this everyweek and everyweek I agree with you.


----------



## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jun 30, 2011)

Jihad Uzamaki said:


> This, tho. And people trying to explain it away had me "LOLOLOL" into the weekend.
> 
> Seriously, tho? People are upset because the story focuses on Naruto or the other characters aren't as powerful as Naruto? Are we READING the same story?
> 
> ...


well said indeed


----------



## Soca (Jun 30, 2011)

I think the real problem here is people are getting older so they can't help but cringe at all the sappiness and flash that's going on in the story but since they've been with it for so long they stay a fan out of habit but can't resist to tell the young ones that something is wrong. If anything more of you should be listening to these type of people because I seriously doubt they keep making the same complaints every week just to bash the series.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jun 30, 2011)

I find it interesting how the people complaining about the manga, are much less offensive to others.


*Spoiler*: __ 



One could be temped to think good tastes goes hand in hand with good manners. Generally.


----------



## Soca (Jun 30, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I find it interesting how the people complaining about the manga, are much less offensive to others.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



exactly my point it's because they're trying to explain what's wrong and "most" fans just can't see past the big explosions and what not. But then again this is meant for young people so it's fitting to keep their attention spans up this way but still the story is dropping in quality really fast.


----------



## cloudsymph (Jun 30, 2011)

i've been facepalming since the beginning of part 2 so yeah.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 30, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> exactly my point it's because they're trying to explain what's wrong and "most" fans just can't see past the big explosions and what not. But then again *this is meant for young people* so it's fitting to keep their attention spans up this way but still the story is dropping in quality really fast.



The bolded is all that is needed to be said. Nobody wants to hear anyone else whining about the manga because everyone assumes that you know what you signed up for. Got a problem with it? Stop reading the manga and stop commenting on it.


----------



## Cromer (Jun 30, 2011)

Some people just love to stew in their hate, I see...


----------



## Soca (Jun 30, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> The bolded is all that is needed to be said. Nobody wants to hear anyone else whining about the manga because everyone assumes that you know what you signed up for. Got a problem with it? Stop reading the manga and stop commenting on it.





Marcelle said:


> I think the real problem here is people are getting older so they can't help but cringe at all the sappiness and flash that's going on in the story *but since they've been with it for so long they stay a fan out of habit *but can't resist to tell the young ones that something is wrong. If anything more of you should be listening to these type of people because I seriously doubt they keep making the same complaints every week just to bash the series.



honestly I say one thing and you just ignore my words and think it's hate


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jun 30, 2011)

Jihad Uzamaki said:


> This, tho. And people trying to explain it away had me "LOLOLOL" into the weekend.
> 
> Seriously, tho? People are upset because the story focuses on Naruto or the other characters aren't as powerful as Naruto? Are we READING the same story?
> 
> ...



Preach it!


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 30, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> honestly I say one thing and you just ignore my words and think it's hate



That doesn't mean you have to comment on it. If it makes you cringe, then keep it to yourself or else we get threads like this.


----------



## Soca (Jun 30, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> That doesn't mean you have to comment on it. If it makes you cringe, then keep it to yourself or else we get threads like this.



So me giving my opinion is a bad thing now? beautiful


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 30, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> So me giving my opinion is a bad thing now? beautiful



Give your opinion all you want, but expect threads like this if your opinion is similar to the OP's. Your complaining about a manga made for younger folk. I'm sorry that it's not meeting your lofty expectations.


----------



## Tyrion (Jun 30, 2011)

Do people still hate Sasuke pulling a hawk outta his ass now?


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jun 30, 2011)

A.Glover92 said:


> Do people still hate Sasuke pulling a hawk outta his ass now?



I dunno  Are you implying Naruto pulled something out of his ass as well


----------



## Tyrion (Jun 30, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I dunno  Are you implying Naruto pulled something out of his ass as well



I dunno


----------



## Closet Pervert (Jun 30, 2011)

There shouldn't be, this chapter was the best in a long time and finally proved Naruto can actually kick some ass with his near final power up. Although i guess it would be better if he just kept trying to dodge people and talk to them the rest of the manga.

The chakra arms were previously shown. Rasengan is his first and only offensive jutsu, the only one he's been using for the last 3 or so years. Of course he has variations of it. And thank Rikudou he can finally make Rasengan without using both of his arms, about fucking time.



lathia said:


> People complain about Sasuke doing new moves without any training, and now you complain about Naruto doing "new" moves with some (minimal) training?
> 
> I don't even...


Yeah good point. There has never been a bigger asspull than Totsuka, this has nothing on that. Oh noes, Orochimaru is coming at me with his ultimate jutsu and i'm out of chakra and blind! I guess i'll just use this sword specifically created by god for killing Orochimaru that i found from the candy store i frequent yesterday...


----------



## Soca (Jun 30, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Give your opinion all you want, but expect threads like this if your opinion is similar to the OP's. Your complaining about a manga made for younger folk. I'm sorry that it's not meeting your lofty expectations.



then take in your own advice and ignore it


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jun 30, 2011)

lathia said:
			
		

> and now you complain about Naruto doing "new" moves with some (minimal) training?
> 
> I don't even...



These moves aren't even new.Only the mini-rasenshuriken, but considering Naru already knows hot to make giant rasengans, very small are not that far-fetched.

Chakra-hands he was doing waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back at VOTE.The other rasengans are very old as well.

Summoning a different frog is not a different tech.And Naru is best friends with all the frogs, so it's to be expected


----------



## Squeek (Jun 30, 2011)

amazes me how idiots here complain on the smallest of things.

Naruto has shown how he can use his only skills (kage bunshin and rasengan) to maximum output by combining them in different ways that you dont expect him to... 

its like him having a gun and you complaining why he can shoot it in so many ways more than 1.

So facepalm yourself really


----------



## Major Pain (Jun 30, 2011)

My 2 issues are not with Naruto's latest "power-up" (to me he is just using the same move a different way). They are just with the following:
1. Naruto's powerup moves while cool, wont work vs most top tier opponents. They just work against fodder (see Vacuum). I doubt he can beat the current Sauske let alone after his power up. His best feat so far was dodging A's punch. If he can maintain that speed while fighting then maybe he could beat most if not all people.

2. I assumed when the war started we would be getting an update on the other Rookies' progression. The only person that has actually grown (no pun intended) is Choji. Everyone else didn't seem stronger or haven't been shown at all. Naruto and Sauske and theirs drastic power increases make the all of their piers unnecessary.

Lastly

3......Where is Rock Lee and Where is Kakashi's Rampage?


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## ~Link~ (Jun 30, 2011)

at this thread and "ass-pulls".

He used Rasengan and Fuuton Rasenshuriken. Only new thing is the chakra arms with he showed he could do before in his training with Bee.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 30, 2011)

~Link~ said:


> at this thread and "ass-pulls".
> 
> He used Rasengan and Fuuton Rasenshuriken. Only new thing is the chakra arms with he showed he could do before in his training with Bee.



Not even those chakra arms are new. He's been using those since part 1.


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## Soca (Jun 30, 2011)

~Link~ said:


> at this thread and "ass-pulls".
> 
> He used Rasengan and Fuuton Rasenshuriken. Only new thing is the chakra arms with he showed he could do before in his training with Bee.



I know eh sheesh people be mad


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## Kisame3rd14 (Jun 30, 2011)

I could not facepalm at the time, my palm was already occupied


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## Hamaru (Jun 30, 2011)

I just think that the gap between Naruto and the other rookies has grown a stupid amount.


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## Kitsukaru (Jun 30, 2011)

Complain more please.


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## Atlantean (Jun 30, 2011)

I didn't like the chapter much either, but I gotta say: you're kidding when complaining about Naruto pulling "new" jutsus out of nowhere, right? 
I mean, if you're going to make that argument, take a look at Sasuke: Hawk summons out of nowhere, complete control over Susanoo out of nowhere, and incredible amounts of chidori variations pulled out of his ass. Sure, he "learned all those off screen". But if you're allowing that excuse, why couldn't Naruto have learned that off screen too? I mean, just because a lot of pages were dedicated to his training, it doesn't mean there wasn't anything else happening that we didn't witness.

But all in all, you don't have to be a genius to come up with variations like "mini rasen-shuriken". It's the same crap over and over again.


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## Deshi Basara (Jun 30, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> I just think that the gap between Naruto and the other rookies has grown a stupid amount.



It's to be expected.Naru has one of the most powerful things in the universe inside him.Hoping for the rookies to compare to the Kyuubi is laughable..


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## Klue (Jun 30, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> I just think that the gap between Naruto and the other rookies has grown a stupid amount.



As expected.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 30, 2011)

Can I fart on the faces of all these folks who can't stop facepalming?


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## Superstars (Jun 30, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Seems to be a weekly event lately that people complain about the newest manga chapter. But not so much this time. Even though to me, this seems like the most offensive one to my tastes, in months. At least since the end of the Pain invasion arc.
> 
> Usually I can tolerate the dumbing down of the plot. *But this chapter was just so much over the top with the silly ass-grabs the whole time. Seriously what's the point of reading this when the writer can just make up some new overpowered technique whenever he feels like it, to solve whatever problem there is?*To me, the story has been on that downward spiral ever since the introduction of Sage Mode and all the previously unmentioned benefits it gave the main character, and things have just been piling up ever since.
> Really, the only reason I keep reading is now out of some sense of morbid fascination.
> ...



How do you figure especially when we saw Naruto train to get these techniques? Even Bee remembered how Naruto turned the Zetsu's back into a tree after punishing them.


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## Kael Hyun (Jul 1, 2011)

Hamaru said:


> I just think that the gap between Naruto and the other rookies has grown a stupid amount.



 and you were expecting otherwise when Naruto has the most powerfull (right now) of the tailed sealed in him?


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## Kaizoku-O Luffy (Jul 1, 2011)

Last couple of weeks there was complain RM is disappointing, it's useless SM is better than RM. Now this?  And all those moves are nothing but rasengan variants which is basically one of his signature move. It's not like he is spamming new ultimate jutsus .


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## Kronin (Jul 3, 2011)

The way of ninja for Naruto, about the "fight area", is what his teacher taught him, and we know it for a long time:


Naruto's strength is based on very few "techniques" (kage-bushin no jutsu, rasengan and its variants, use the Kyuubi's chakra) used in many different ways; the same SM only enhances the capabilities that the user already has (with the exception of the chakra sensitivity): everything we have seen in this chapter are simply variations of what we've seen before. 

The author has always been very coherent on this point (and really is needed a great imagination to invent more and different ways to use the same techniques) and I'm very grateful of this: anyway it's possible complain if you the people want that Naruto to learn more techniques (like Sasuke that follows the Orochimaru's philosophy), but frankly I do not see how to do it for the opposite.


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## captain remedy (Jul 3, 2011)

What do you expect? The killjoy is so disgusting it makes me want to vomit. Naruto has been using Rasengan since part one, so get the fuck over it or move to another fucking manga if you haven't gotten used to his rasengan techniques already. Gawd. I happen to find his new techniques awesome.

All I've gotta say is: *RASENGAN OR GTFO. * ​


Marcelle said:


> exactly my point it's because they're trying to explain what's wrong and "most" fans just can't see past the big explosions and what not. But then again this is meant for young people so it's fitting to keep their attention spans up this way but still the story is dropping in quality really fast.



If so, why are you still reading the manga? Wouldn't that be more logical than logging on every week and whining like a fucking baby over something that's completely irrelevant?


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## Tantalus (Jul 3, 2011)

*does kishi have the same syndrome as Benjamin Button?*

so lul at the last few chapters.

what the hell is even going on? Tobi is OP, Naruto wtf all this new shit he randomly knows. Sasuke missing from the scene the last two years. fuckin fail.

I was wondering if kishi has the same syndrome as benjamin button. seems like the plot and dialogue and just general manga construction became increasingly more childish as the manga went on and now he is just like 5 years old now in his crib with a DBZ shirt on. opinions? anybody have insider info to validate this hypothesis?


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## posternojutsu (Jul 3, 2011)

Tantalus said:


> so lul at the last few chapters.
> 
> what the hell is even going on? Tobi is OP, *Naruto wtf all this new shit he randomly knows.* Sasuke missing from the scene the last two years. fuckin fail.
> 
> I was wondering if kishi has the same syndrome as benjamin button. seems like the plot and dialogue and just general manga construction became increasingly more childish as the manga went on and now he is just like 5 years old now in his crib with a DBZ shirt on. opinions? anybody have insider info to validate this hypothesis?



Where do people get this crap from...what new thing has Naruto pulled out?


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## navy (Jul 3, 2011)

Tobi is OP? What does that mean? Over Powered?

Rasengan is new? 

Sasuke?

What are you talking about?


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## narutored23 (Jul 3, 2011)

posternojutsu said:


> Where do people get this crap from...what new thing has Naruto pulled out?



hint hint


 chapter 545


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## Raidoton (Jul 3, 2011)

Sasuke? Who's that?


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## posternojutsu (Jul 3, 2011)

narutored23 said:


> hint hint
> 
> 
> chapter 545



Larger rasengan is something new? Kyuubi arms are something new? What did he do this chapter that is asspull level?


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## Kind of a big deal (Jul 3, 2011)

What's with the attitude? It's like you're personally offended, by someone criticizing a manga.

I made made this topic to see and be comforted by knowing there are some likeminded people. I even concede that if you like the manga as it is, then that's great for you.

But that's not good enough, and anyone agreeing with me, is called everything from a retard to a fucking baby.

Really? That's the tone that people go for? Honestly, that only strengthens my resolve to be a 'killjoy'.

As for why people still read the manga when they complain about it, it's been running for over ten years. It's often overlooked but there are implications to that.
Many of us are not the same people as when we started out reading it for the first time. Our tastes change over time, sadly, the manga has not grown along with us. But we have committed all this time into it so far, so we're riding it out to the end.

Don't be so quick to judge, if the manga runs long enough, you too might become one of us before you know it.


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## narutored23 (Jul 3, 2011)

posternojutsu said:


> Larger rasengan is something new? Kyuubi arms are something new? What did he do this chapter that is asspull level?



the fact he was able to beat the white zetsus with 1 point of his finger


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## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 3, 2011)

navy said:


> Tobi is OP? What does that mean?



"Tobi is OP"=The man currently called Madara is over-powered(six paths, rinnegan, and sharingan).



> Rasengan is new?



I guess what he means is the ability to make many rasengans at once, where as before, he needed a clone just for one. Then there's making a mini-rasenshuriken with his finger.



> Sasuke?



Sasuke hasn't appeared in a while.



> What are you talking about?



I've got no idea who Benjamin Button is.


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## Puppetry (Jul 3, 2011)

People are tired of constant complaining, because it's been going on for so long. Of course, some annoyance with the manga is acceptable, but the original topic you presented simply sounded like whining. Naruto displayed nothing exceptional this chapter. We didn't get any large, ridiculous Rasengan varients like we did against Pain; we got several average sized ones, a minature version of another, and a somewhat large one. I'm not seeing how this is a problem with bothering everyone about.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jul 3, 2011)

You (and many others) are really just focusing on the techniques too much. I mentioned those, but really only to illustrate how the writer makes everything too convenient for Naruto. 
The general overpoweredness of the main character is the real reason I complained about that chapter. Guess that didn't come across, that's my fault.


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## Gabe (Jul 3, 2011)

rasengans are new?  the summoning new? it is the only moves he has ever used. and tobi is a villain he is suppose to be over powered. and who cares about sauske. we had may years with him in the manga all the time. it has been a nice break without the darkness chronicles. now it is time for the TNJ chronicles.


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## Puppetry (Jul 3, 2011)

You're really making something out of nothing. Naruto displayed new techniques, yes. But they weren't large. They weren't flashy. They had been foreshadowed. They were merely an application of concepts Naruto learned during training. 

These techniques don't overpower Naruto, and he's been overpowered for a while. Sennin Naruto was overpowered and had superior _Rasengan_ varients.

And your original complaint was this:



Kind of a big deal said:


> Usually I can tolerate the dumbing down of the plot. But this chapter was just so much over the top with the silly ass-grabs the whole time. *Seriously what's the point of reading this when the writer can just make up some new overpowered technique whenever he feels like it, to solve whatever problem there is?*



That was your complaint about this chapter specifically; that Naruto's techniques were overpowered. They aren't. 

Everyone "focused on the techniques" because that was your main complaint.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 3, 2011)

Gabe said:


> rasengans are new?  the summoning new? it is the only moves he has ever used. and tobi is a villain he is suppose to be over powered. and who cares about sauske. we had may years with him in the manga all the time. it has been a nice break without the darkness chronicles. now it is time for the TNJ chronicles.



The summoning was a bit weird though. Naruto wasn't even in the air to do food cart destroyer.


Sasuke is important because Part 2 is mostly about Naruto and Sasuke's bond, to not have Sasuke in it for so long is ridiculous even though I hate Sasuke for stomping on Itachi's dreams and sacrifices.


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## captain remedy (Jul 3, 2011)

I apologize for calling you those names, it's just irritating that every time I click on the Manga review page, there is always a group of people complaining rather than talking about the Manga itself and what went on.​


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## P (Jul 3, 2011)

Believe it or not, creators taking their work less seriously doesn't mean they're regressing in age.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jul 3, 2011)

Right, arguing over semantics that I already conceded to.

Anyway, this is the heart of the complaint, 1 paragraph further:



> To me, the story has been on that downward spiral ever since the introduction of Sage Mode and all the previously unmentioned benefits it gave the main character, and things have just been *piling up ever since*.


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## Puppetry (Jul 3, 2011)

Right, because I so totally read 13 pages specifically looking for your posts. If you already conceded, it would have been nice to edit the OP, of course.

"Piling up?" Could you expand on that, because I could just as easily interpret it as you discussing the techniques, which I have already explained.

And now, you seem to be shifting arguments. First you talked about the techniques. Then you talked about Naruto Uzumaki. Now, you just gave a vague "things have been piling up," which could also include all characters.


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## P (Jul 3, 2011)

Personally, I didn't mind all the Kyuubi arm/rasengan combos. Sure, some of them seemed over the top, but come on, Naruto just came back from training; of course he needs to show off to make up for him getting smacked around either next chapter or the chapter after it.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jul 3, 2011)

> The general overpoweredness of the main character is the real reason I complained about that chapter. Guess that didn't come across, that's my fault.



Right there. And I don't edit my first post because by the time I woke up and started my pc I saw the topic had loads of pages of replies, it would feel disingenuous to all of their posts to change the OP.

But come to think of it, I actually *do *find the newly aquired techniques to be lame. I understand how Kishimoto legitimises them as new ways to combine and control all his previously trained techniques, but that alone doesn't make it right.
My suspension of disbelief took a hit by the sheer amount of rediculousness. Arms growing out of his ass, finger rasengan, grapping opponents into rasengan, all of which can be explained with the Narutoverse thing that passes for logic, but that doesn't make it any less dumb to me. 
There's no building up to it but rather just suddenly knows how to use it, the main character just happens to be the prophecized child, he just happens to be stronger than everyone else combined at the age of 15/16. How does that make for good storytelling? It's more like a teenage fanfic writer's wet dream. I get the sense the manga is drawing near it's end because of this, and I think it would be a shame if it ended _this_ way.


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## zlatko (Jul 3, 2011)

evrything was ok ecept for the rine/sharin jinchuriki eye's that was realy hyped


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 3, 2011)

> There's no building up to it but rather just suddenly knows how to use it



Excuse me.Naru was shown training with the chakra hands way back at chapter 515.It's not Kishi's fault you don't read every chapter.

And the hands themselves were introduced way back at the VOTE fight, then they had an even larger showing against Oro at the start of part two.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jul 3, 2011)

Way to focus on one sentence, yet again.

When has Naruto shown to do several rasengans at the same time, or to make finger rasengans? Like I already said, I know how it can be explained, that's NOT the problem. 

The problem is that it's all too unlikely even within the Narutoverse. And that breaks the story for me. if there's one sentence to focus on, that one was it.


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## Aldric (Jul 3, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> There's no building up to it but rather just suddenly knows how to use it, the main character just happens to be the prophecized child, he just happens to be stronger than everyone else combined at the age of 15/16. How does that make for good storytelling? It's more like a teenage fanfic writer's wet dream. I get the sense the manga is drawing near it's end because of this, and I think it would be a shame if it ended _this_ way.



It's like you've just found out Kishimoto was a joke

Remember when Naruto came back from a two year timeskip training session with a slightly larger rasengan

Kishimoto couldn't write proper strength development to save his life


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 3, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Way to focus on one sentence, yet again.
> 
> *When has Naruto shown to do several rasengans at the same time*, or to make finger rasengans? Like I already said, I know how it can be explained, that's NOT the problem.



Um, in Sage Mode 








> The problem is that it's all too unlikely even within the Narutoverse. And that breaks the story for me. if there's one sentence to focus on, that one was it.



Are we reading the same manga?Naruto being able to do more rasengans and finger mini-rasenshuriken, when he finally has better control over his chakra and chakra hands is what you find the most unlikely


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## Canute87 (Jul 3, 2011)

OP, Naruto as always been using rasengans and his kyuubi shroud usage was seen from his battle with sasuke at the valley of the end, years later bee has taught him how to properly use the shroud and the result of that was the ass whupping of the White Wood.

Naruto has full control of the most powerful bijuu, how you can expect less than greatness is beyond my comprehension.


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## Gabe (Jul 3, 2011)

HighLevelPlayer said:


> The summoning was a bit weird though. Naruto wasn't even in the air to do food cart destroyer.
> 
> 
> Sasuke is important because Part 2 is mostly about Naruto and Sasuke's bond, to not have Sasuke in it for so long is ridiculous even though I hate Sasuke for stomping on Itachi's dreams and sacrifices.


the food cart destroyer was never stated to be jutsu that you need to be in mid air to use it. 
like i said about sasuke who cares for me it was a welcomed year without him. either way he is healing and he has become a villains i doubt we will have long arc involving him alone. plus it seems madara does not plan to use him in the war.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jul 3, 2011)

Ugh okay last time I explain this before I turn off the pc.

I understand WHY he is so strong. I understand why he can use those techniques. 

I don't understand why the writer thinks it's a good idea he can do it so easily. (that includes new techniques on the fly even though others take years to make new ones) And I'm not talking about more training arcs. I'm talking about how this is a bad thing for the story in general. I can't relate, not even one bit, to a character who gets everything in life so easily.

No he didn't work hard for it. He's 16 and the most powerful in the world. By definition it comes easily to him.


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## Aldric (Jul 3, 2011)

> Sasuke missing from the scene the last two years. fuckin fail.



So that's just another piss and moan about Thathuke not being in the manga thread in disguise

Good to know


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## Neelix (Jul 3, 2011)

Well, Sasuke hasnt appeared for 1yr and it just seemed like a month or less.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 3, 2011)

> I don't understand why the writer thinks it's a good idea he can do it so easily. (that includes new techniques on the fly even though others take years to make new ones)



What new techs?Mini-rasenshuriken?Since Naru has known for quite a long time now, how to do giant rasengans, making them a lot smaller shouldn't be that difficult.



> No he didn't work hard for it.



Training till you pass out from exhaustion is not hard-work 



> He's 16 and the most powerful in the world.



He's the only 16 years old with demon fox inside him.It's hilarious to expect anything less from Naru once he takes the power of one of the strongest beings in existence.I mean seriously


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 3, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Ugh okay last time I explain this before I turn off the pc.
> 
> I understand WHY he is so strong. I understand why he can use those techniques.
> 
> ...



I'm still waiting for you to point out these new techniques.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 3, 2011)

Gabe said:


> the food cart destroyer was never stated to be jutsu that you need to be in mid air to use it.
> like i said about sasuke who cares for me it was a welcomed year without him. either way he is healing and he has become a villains i doubt we will have long arc involving him alone. plus it seems madara does not plan to use him in the war.



But the only times we've ever seen food cart destroyer were with the user on the toad(Jiraiya, Minato). Even if the jutsu does not require the summoner to be in the air with the toad, not stating this makes Naruto's food cart destroyer seem like an ass pull.

EDIT: Oh wait, I see now, Naruto is at the top of the toad, he's just hard to see. Guess that definitely means food cart destroyer requires the summoner to be mid-air, but it means it wasn't an ass pull.


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## Dashido (Jul 3, 2011)

I miss Sauce....and yea I think he over did it with naruto's power level....Sauce's to no wait it was good at Kage summit....making them stronger than that...just over did it. I just want it to go back to Naruto wanting to be Hokage and progressing his own skills and not all these modes and stuff....*sigh* I miss the old naruto this shit is getting outa hand


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## Aleph-1 (Jul 3, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I don't understand why the writer thinks it's a good idea he can do it so easily. (that includes new techniques on the fly even though others take years to make new ones) And I'm not talking about more training arcs. I'm talking about how this is a bad thing for the story in general. I can't relate, not even one bit, to a character who gets everything in life so easily.
> 
> No he didn't work hard for it. He's 16 and the most powerful in the world. By definition it comes easily to him.


So why on earth are you bitching about this so much now??? Kishimoto's been doing this since the start of Part 2 with Sasuke's progression from genin kid to godly prodigy over the timeskip. Honestly, this stuff's been going on in the manga for too damn long now for me to not say "Oh....and you _just noticed_ that Kishimoto's writing sucks? Herp derp."


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## Soca (Jul 3, 2011)

captain remedy said:


> If so, why are you still reading the manga? Wouldn't that be more logical than logging on every week and whining like a fucking baby over something that's completely irrelevant?



 settle down child


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## Canute87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Ugh okay last time I explain this before I turn off the pc.
> 
> I understand WHY he is so strong. I understand why he can use those techniques.
> 
> ...



Giving the fact who his opponents will be i.e Sasuke and Madara it makes no sense for him to have much drawbacks to using technqiues he's been using for years. He can't afford to have have limitations to people like Madara and Sasuke who are popping serious power with no apparent consequence. 

Naruto has always had a knack for learning powerful stuff. Remember he couldn't learn normal bunshin but learn KB in one night lol.

Look Naruto is not as talentless as some people think. For everything he has learned over the years it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for him to be constantly struggling when what he's learning simply builds upon the concepts he's learn in the past.


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## Vampire Princess (Jul 3, 2011)

The manga has been bothering me for a while now...


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## Kujiro Anodite (Jul 4, 2011)

I'm with you Op! 

will we ever see that fancy red cape again?
what's the point of that "sage mode" again?

Ohh Naruto...


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## Doge (Jul 4, 2011)

The facepalming began when genin pre-rasengan naruto beat a 1 tail jinchuuriki with the Shukaku fully out and attacking.  With only shadow clones.

/punch to the face

Kishi just gives naruto free wins with either one of the three: kage bunshin, rasengan, or kyuubi.  Sasuke is even worse considering MS abilities are so haxxed.

By far the worst power up was sage mode.  The 5 other paths of pain were purely there for sage mode's hype.  They barely even put up a fight.  

And worst of all, Kishi can always save his main character via kage bunshin feint or someone stepping in to save the Sauce.


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## Kujiro Anodite (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't even...


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## Cocodrilito (Jul 4, 2011)

What did you expect OP that Naruto is the same after getting Kyuubi?


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## Chibason (Jul 4, 2011)

OP is right. Tobi is OP


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## Bakusaiga (Jul 4, 2011)

Sasuke-centric chapters-WAAAH! Sasuke is too strong!  He doesn't train for anything and he gets random asspull power ups!

Naruto-centric chapters-WAAAH! Naruto is too strong!  Where is he getting all these bs rasengan variants?!  He's so overpowered Sasuke will need random asspull power ups just to keep up!

smh


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## Kronin (Jul 4, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I don't understand why the writer thinks it's a good idea *he can do it so easily*. (that includes new techniques on the fly *even though others take years to make new ones*) And I'm not talking about more training arcs. I'm talking about how this is a bad thing for the story in general. I can't relate, not even one bit, to a character who gets everything in life so easily.



But it's not so easily or quickly. As I've said in my previous post, what you have seen in this chapter (first of the voluyme 58) is the result of a training started in the volumes 11 and 17.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 4, 2011)

I read Naruto now, to see the Rookies and side characters like Tsunade, get more action and screen time. I couldn't care less for Naruto any more, he's OP and his abilities bore me if I must be honest. He's far beyond the strength of his team matees, his teacher and even his friggin Hokage, despite being what - 16? Whenever his own teacher and Hokage didn't reach the level of strength they did until they were what, mid 50's? Sasuke interested me whenever he was Part of Team 7, his effect on Naruto and Sakura on missions was always pretty funny to watch. But now, it's all about who loves Sasuke more and who will be the hero and save him from evil. Snore bore, if you ask me. 

The latest chapter was better because I got to see Tsunade speaking out and giving significant information to Shikaku, A and his assistant. While her subordinates were the ones to figure out the information. In other words, medics had a significant role last chapter, aha. The Food Cart Destroyer Technique was cool, as usual, because its not overused. The quadruple rasengan and RM combo was an ass pull, since we never saw Naruto being able to do such an ability before.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 4, 2011)

OMG, Naru is only 16!!!How can he be so strong?!?How can he be so far above his peers?!?

Yeah.. how can Naruto be at that level.. *when the frigging Kyuubi lives inside him?*


Im sorry, im so sorry, but it's not Kishi's fault some people don't read the manga properly.You can't fucking expect *Kyuubi's power* to be on the same level as the likes of Ten-Ten 



> The quadruple rasengan and RM combo was an ass pull, since we never saw Naruto being able to do such an ability before.



Yeah, because making more rasengans and smashing Zetsus with chakra hands into an another rasengan is such an amazing and complicated ability, Naru totally needs to have done it before to be believable..

And Naru just finished training.


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## Brickhunt (Jul 4, 2011)

My problem with this chapter is that these feats would be perfectly fine if it wasn't for two points.

1. The first Naruto tried to do a Rasengan on this form, it resulted in a incomplete tailed beast bomb. This suggested that Naruto couldn't do Rasengan on this form, but chapters later he is making 5 normal Ransegan at the same time. Had Kishi addressed this on a panel showing naruto doing normal rasengan instead of imperfect beast bomb, I would be fine.

2. I can't even imagine the amount of Naruto chakra Kyuubi already ate by this point. These feats would be fine if Naruto had actually tamed Kyuubi and negotiated chakra exchange with it, but as far as we know, Kyuubi is eating all naruto chakra it can for hours and yet Naruto didn't suffer any side effect. By the time he finally feel something, he will already wipe out battalions of zetsus and edo zombies by himself. Kishi exaggerated too much on a imperfect form.

If an imperfect mode can already do this, Rikudou knows that he will be capable to do when he finally tames the Kyuubi and becomes a real perfect Jinchuuriki.


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## mayumi (Jul 4, 2011)

did any one ask when did naruto learn/practise naruto rendan which he merely did by watching sasuke?
did anyone ask when naruto learned or practised the naruto ninja scroll moves against gaara?
did any one ask when naruto practised and learned how to do clone chain against sasuke or counter sasuke's speed against chidori by having a clone spin him around at VoTE?
did anyone ask when naruto was able to use the chakra claws so well against oro in part 2 when he was fully in control in 3-tail mode?

what naruto showed in this chapter is the same as all those fights, he simply made new jutsu on the spot cause he knows how to use chakra hands since VoTE and how to make rasengangs even before that.


----------



## Juuuuubi (Jul 4, 2011)

mayumi said:


> did any one ask when did naruto learn/practise naruto rendan which he merely did by watching sasuke?
> did anyone ask when naruto learned or practised the naruto ninja scroll moves against gaara?
> did any one ask when naruto practised and learned how to do clone chain against sasuke or counter sasuke's speed against chidori by having a clone spin him around at VoTE?
> did anyone ask when naruto was able to use the chakra claws so well against oro in part 2 when he was fully in control in 3-tail mode?



All of that stuff is fodder compared to what he showed in the latest chapter.. It's not like Naruto is the new Kakashi and just happened to copy ALL his jutsu. 

Being able to use a ninja scroll or do some shitty kicks in the air is hardly a feat comparable to mini-rasenshuriken etc..


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 4, 2011)

Juuuuubi said:


> All of that stuff is fodder compared to what he showed in the latest chapter.. It's not like Naruto is the new Kakashi and just happened to copy ALL his jutsu.
> 
> Being able to use a ninja scroll or do some shitty kicks in the air is hardly a feat comparable to mini-rasenshuriken etc..



LOL, mini-rasenshuriken.. It's not like Naru already knows the mechanics to make it rasengans bigger.. oh, wait.. he does!Making it smaller is hardly that amazing and impossible.


----------



## Mane (Jul 4, 2011)

I've never been interested in overpowered characters in any manga I've read/show I've watched. Being virtually untouchable is boring. Due to what's happening with the power levels, I'm becoming less and less interested in Naruto (as in, both the manga and the character). I agree with Godaime Tsunade, the rookies and side characters are pretty much the only reason still read it, since they are the only ones I'm still interested in.


----------



## navy (Jul 4, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> LOL, mini-rasenshuriken.. It's not like Naru already knows the mechanics to make it rasengans bigger.. oh, wait.. he does!Making it smaller is hardly that amazing and impossible.



Actually Naruto has already shown the ability to make his rasengan smaller.
He did it with his clone transformed as Sai.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 4, 2011)

navy said:


> Actually Naruto has already shown the ability to make his rasengan smaller.
> He did it with his clone transformed as Sai.



 Doesn't ring a bell


----------



## Taltos (Jul 4, 2011)

MEIzukage said:


> I'm with you Op!
> 
> will we ever see that fancy red cape again?
> what's the point of that "sage mode" again?
> ...


Perhaps hes going to lose the fox to madara. I mean all this promising of impossible, looks like foreshadowing to me. Really naruto is due for another big fail.


----------



## navy (Jul 4, 2011)

navy said:


> Actually Naruto has already shown the ability to make his rasengan smaller.
> He did it with his clone transformed as Sai.





畜生道 said:


> Doesn't ring a bell





There you go.


----------



## FearTear (Jul 5, 2011)

*Kishi wasted a perfectly good plot*

I think Kishimoto wasted a chance to properly hype Sakura's intelligence.

In chapter 545 there was a scene where Sakura realizes Madara is using Yamato to increase the power of the Zetsus.

It would have been impressive, for her, to understand such an important information...

Too bad all of the readers already know that from chapter 514-515


----------



## THE immortal ROCKLEE (Jul 5, 2011)

*MANGA*

I also think the new naruto mode is just creator being lazy. he should redo it and give naruto some badass eyes like madara and sasuke have.. maybe like a mix between SM eyes and his eyes when the 9 tails starts taking over..

BUT YA WHEN CAN WE GET A GOOD FIGHT PLZ. Show me some naruto or sasuke or madara or AT LEAST itachi


*Spoiler*: __ 



The reason sasuke is so pissed is cuz he has such a small chode.




bama


----------



## left behind (Jul 6, 2011)

*10 10*

Every char here introduced gets an upgrade. Rock lee even got his bench marks and onwards since part 1.  Almost everyone gets an upgrade.  Even the ramen guy gives additionals to naruto for specials.


Then came the banana fan 



oh Ten Ten...


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Jul 6, 2011)

I CHOOSE SASUKE!

As 37.14% of the poll takers also did.


----------



## Ramenfighter (Jul 7, 2011)

I was crying in tears,when Deidara was about to use his ultimate explosion again.I just hope Itachi and Nagato don't get trolled like they did...................


----------



## Alpha (Jul 7, 2011)

Sakura. That is all.


----------



## Escargon (Jul 7, 2011)

*It feels like its just Madaras mask that keeps me reading this manga.

Im not interested anymore since Danzos defeat.*


----------



## Tales- (Jul 12, 2011)

*Kishi's troll physics*

I've always been a fan of fantasy stories, and although i am a physics major, i am more than happy to overlook a few alternative physics laws in fantasy stories. So long as they are new laws  authors shouldnt break the old ones.
Kishi has done a little bit of both i am afraid. He has done a very nice job of world building with chakra, (being a mix of ones spiritual and physical strenght) and also with chakra nature affiliation. The mixing of natures to make kekkei genkai was also a nice touch, if it doesnt turn out to be a total clusterfuck when people start mixing 3+ natures :/ (good luck trying to figure out which new element beats which)
The way seals tie into jutsu making seems to be an old concept and an abandoned one for kishi. Orochimaru once said that mixing different types of seals would enduce different types of jutsu (analogy of blue and yellow mix becoming green, im sure you guys remember) but this has not been a focal point in the story for a long time now.

This can probably be attributed to the fact that naruto is a shonen manga.

However.

Shonen manga or no, it always hurts my eyes to see physical laws broken in a reckless manner and/or paradoxes come up within the fabricated structure of the story. This has unfortunately happened on more than one occasion in naruto. 
Point: Hidan. Despite being one of my favourite characters, i just cant accept his immortality  
The kyuubi, is it at half power or not? Did minato not seal the "yang" or whatever (being half of its power) in the death god? and if so, why is it still evil? shouldnt it be a ball of power and not malice?
Last but not least: Magnetism. 
Either kishi has a very limited understanding of magnets or the narutoverse has a very different set of fundamental forces. 1. The human body can not be magnetically charged. 2. Neither can gold  3. Why is the magnetic jutsu so fkn powerful? I mean, everyone who has it is a goddamn magneto.
Totally OP, i dont see naruto controlling the weather, or sasuke controlling lightning storms!     wait.....



Anyways: comments, oppinions, shitstorms below pls.


Aww, i got moved to the garbage heap of all threads


----------



## Zaru (Jul 12, 2011)

Kishi makes lots of money and doesn't care what you think


----------



## jso (Jul 12, 2011)

Here's a tip: just run with it


----------



## navy (Jul 12, 2011)

Complaining about physics now?


----------



## tori22 (Jul 12, 2011)

Yea I thought about that as well I mean the body does actually have iron in it so yea. Also I saw someone else say something about how gold is psycho something magnetic or something. Either way it might not be actual magnetism dude it's a manga not an educational video. 

But before I get banned I gotta actually complain about something in this thread and that's how naruto's gonna defeat every1. It's retarded this war should be for other people and you know what the fodder idea isn't that bad if you don't like the fodder then just read bleach but honestly I was hoping that guy with the magnets would actually fight somebody. Now it's clear that naruto will just romp on all these cool Edo's.


----------



## Barioth (Jul 12, 2011)

Hey I will take a bite. Naruto doesn't have a specific time line. Like Ninja Era. It would be nice and make things much more easier to trace.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 13, 2011)

Some of the biggest let-downs this year was in fact Sakura, as much of a tool as she tried not to be, she in-fact proved to the entire Naruto fan-base, that she is just that, a tool. I would have had Sasuke kill Sakura in order to validate his allegiance to the Akatsuki, but honestly, he's also in fact nothing but a tool. I think there is just too much obsession with Sasuke, sometimes when people won't listen, you need to leave them on their own.


----------



## left behind (Jul 14, 2011)

*now i am sick of SUSANOO*

Sasuke susanoo this, susanoo that. EMS will improve and evolve susanoo.   Hey dont get me wrong.  I like this as this is the MS that seems successful in his ways of battling.

What I am sick of is...I mean c'mon guys he'll be stuck in this bubble.  In my eyes its pretty invincible, but there might be a time it'll get a little crack from damage, then...craaackWTFthisISmanga. Unexpected is good, though unpleasant.

The kid's got alot of potential as an Uchiha and a shinobi.  Dont just limit your fapping for Susanoo.  Forget the emo/avenger personality but i get it for his hate dark chakra or w/e.  Its hard when you see the most probable, and you were shown the least then you go


----------



## dream (Jul 14, 2011)

I would love for more characters to show a wider range of jutsus but almost all of them seem to love spamming their trump cards.


----------



## Soca (Jul 14, 2011)

The complaints thread is a little further up.

I agree with your overall post though.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jul 14, 2011)

When did we last see Susano'o?

Oh yes. Something like 15 months ago. Before Sasuke got a new power-up.


----------



## Automatic (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm sick of SUSANOO too, because SUSANOO is sick!

But that's like one of the final stage of Sharingan.... it makes sense to master something than rather be ok at a little bit of everything.. 

It's the same with all characters.. and in real life too.... ...


----------



## Lawless1227 (Jul 14, 2011)

Well Susanoo is pretty sweet but I"m looking forward to his powers and jutsus being centered around something else but I doubt it... oh well still gonna be sick when we see what happens..... hopefully ^_^ >_> <_<


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Jul 14, 2011)

the only ones who can beat the susano is raikage by himself and onoki by himself


----------



## Nois (Jul 14, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> I would love for more characters to show a wider range of jutsus but almost all of them seem to love spamming their trump cards.



You know, it's a shinobi world. you gotta make a name for yourself if you want to be a brand product. With this logic, it makes sense for everyone to use their trump cards, and makes Kakashi's initial hype much... hyper

As a reader and not a KL philosopher, I understand OP's sentiments.


----------



## Undead (Jul 14, 2011)

Why are we bitching about Susano'o? If anything, thread should be about Rasengan.


----------



## Scorpion (Jul 14, 2011)

My first complaint is how Kishi treats the villains.

I mean come on 

Have Hidan get fucked, and just forget about him completely.

Turn Kakuzu into a fucking retard and kill him off with a KB feint, and then off panel him in the war. Not to mention off paneled by Choji of all people.

Kill Sasori off like a bitch, TWICE. 

Have Orochimaru one-paneled, TWICE. 

Have Kabutomaru of all people captured by Kurotsuchi. WTF. Then make him a fucking snake. WTF 

Put Deidara up against his worst match-up in the manga, and not even have the common courtesy of giving him a good fight in the war. 

Kill Nagato off with Talk no Jutsu. Talk no Jutsu for fucksake! The goddamn Akatsuki leader, who soloed two hidden villages, gets fucked over with TnJ of all things! 

Have Madara embarrass himself in every fight he's been in, and then make him a Nagato wannabe. 

Have Ginkaku trolled by Darui, then Kinkaku fucked over by Ino of all people.

My second complaint is just Sasuke in general.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Jul 14, 2011)

Sarutobi Asuma said:


> Why are we bitching about Susano'o? If anything, thread should be about Rasengan.



Because Susanoo is the new Rasengan  Next expect a portable mini version of Susanoo which is like a chakra midget that Sasuke can throw at his opponents


----------



## left behind (Jul 14, 2011)

Sarutobi Asuma said:


> Why are we bitching about Susano'o? If anything, thread should be about Rasengan.




because the fact that we knew its full potential is an elemental rasengan.  but it keeps on progressing.  Unlike th"RASENGAN!!!*


----------



## AKmyWaffle (Jul 14, 2011)

Susano hasn't been in the manga for over a year, or has it been two years now?


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Jul 14, 2011)

much better than any attack of Naruto.


----------



## left behind (Jul 14, 2011)

Wakattebayo said:


> much better than any attack of Naruto.



you really mean _any_


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 14, 2011)

I agree.It was cool when Itachi showed it for the first time, because he didn't rely on it the whole time and wasn't over used.Now.. i agree.Fortunately, we haven't seen it lately and nether Sasuke


----------



## Juuuuubi (Jul 14, 2011)

It is a shame, both Naruto and Sasuke's trump cards are quite the bore now. They were both awesome back in the day but they really need to get something new otherwise their fight will be exactly what we've seen before in previous fights with different people (Danzo and Nagato). 

EMS better give Sasuke some cool shit.


----------



## HInch (Jul 14, 2011)

I look forward to seeing Sasuke not move whatsoever and spam from inside Susano'o. That's the breaks of such a great jutsu though. If it were more versatile (see: Gaara's sand) it'd be more exciting but that's life. If Naruto goes at it with his usual insane charging forward it could be exciting still.


----------



## left behind (Jul 14, 2011)

HInch said:


> I look forward to seeing Sasuke not move whatsoever and spam from inside Susano'o. That's the breaks of such a great jutsu though. If it were more versatile (see: Gaara's sand) it'd be more exciting but that's life. If Naruto goes at it with his usual insane charging forward it could be exciting still.



the only thing that i wont be puking on susanoo if it moves the way the user do, no matter how fast he/she is.  Nah, no more.


----------



## Sera (Jul 14, 2011)

I miss watching Sasuke fight like everyone else. He used to be fun to watch in battle.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 14, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Because Susanoo is the new Rasengan  Next expect a portable mini version of Susanoo which is like a chakra midget that Sasuke can throw at his opponents



 

Itachi was cool with his Susanoo, he used it as a last resort.

Sasuke on the other hand.... Is boring.

But this is the only way he can keep up with top tiers and can avoid beign stomped badly, so he only is stomped by them .


----------



## erivar (Jul 14, 2011)

I think you missed the complaining train by like 50 chapters ago. So this thread is irrelevant. Maybe when Sasuke returns and spams hi Susanoo, then you may be onto something.


----------



## left behind (Jul 14, 2011)

erivar said:


> I think you missed the complaining train by like 50 chapters ago. So this thread is irrelevant. Maybe when Sasuke returns and spams hi Susanoo, then you may be onto something.



if you get half of my OP, its more of a suggestion.  the topic is a semi-complaint in its sense


----------



## Summers (Jul 14, 2011)

You know what would make me mad? If susanoo became intelligent being.
Susanoo"after feeding me all this hateful chakra sasuke I ssuanoo am now free!"
Kills kabuto, Madara, and Sasuke.
Susanoo" Now I am the finall boss, Juubi is my pet, I am RS's mother!


----------



## Aeiou (Jul 14, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> When did we last see Susano'o?
> 
> Oh yes. Something like 15 months ago. Before Sasuke got a new power-up.



This...

Why are people crying over spilled milk?


----------



## left behind (Jul 14, 2011)

Aeion said:


> This...
> 
> Why are people crying over spilled milk?



because the spilled milk reeks that of a thousand bullshit. no offence.


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Jul 14, 2011)

I've never been a big fan of Susanoo. Seems uncreative to me. It got even worse when it started shooting arrows  Not to mention the dreaded, "What's ___ going to do against Susanoo?" defense. By far my least favorite ability born from the sharingan. But ah well. No point complainin.


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 14, 2011)

Im sick of Rasengan and its countless variants,i find susano'o kinda cool.


----------



## BrokenBonds (Jul 14, 2011)

How can you be sick of something we haven't seen in like a year?


----------



## Necessary Evil (Jul 14, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> How can you be sick of something we haven't seen in like a year?



They are just hatin


----------



## vagnard (Jul 14, 2011)

Susano's idea per s? isn't that bad. 

The problems:

1-It's too farfetched and unrelated to the concept of "doujutsu"

2-It should work like a Jojo's stand. The user would need actually move and and extend the range... not to create a bubble of invincibility. 

3-It should be combined with Sasuke's regular arsenal.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Jul 14, 2011)

left behind said:


> Sasuke susanoo this, susanoo that. EMS will improve and evolve susanoo.   Hey dont get me wrong.  I like this as this is the MS that seems successful in his ways of battling.
> 
> What I am sick of is...I mean c'mon guys he'll be stuck in this bubble.  In my eyes its pretty invincible, but there might be a time it'll get a little crack from damage, then...craaackWTFthisISmanga. Unexpected is good, though unpleasant.
> 
> The kid's got alot of potential as an Uchiha and a shinobi.  Dont just limit your fapping for Susanoo.  Forget the emo/avenger personality but i get it for his hate dark chakra or w/e.  Its hard when you see the most probable, and you were shown the least then you go



If it ain't broke, don't change it, right mate?


----------



## kazuri (Jul 14, 2011)

Susanoo is useless. All you have to do is stay out of his range and let his chakra deplete quickly as hell. Just because someone has some badass thing like susano doesnt mean you have to be a retard and let it rape you. It's not rocket science, its fiction.


----------



## Frawstbite (Jul 14, 2011)

It was this cool god-like technique Itachi used and that made me appreciate it.

Now, it's Sasuke's *ONLY* means of winning, and it shall remain that way. Now and forever. I don't think I'll look forward to Sasuke's fights like I used to.


----------



## I Blue I (Jul 14, 2011)

Why do so many people whine about this? I mean, think about it. Sasuke was stripped of almost every technique in his arsenal after Orochimaru was sealed. However, the Mangekyou Sharingan granted him three (or four, depending on how you look at it) incredibly powerful new jutsu. Of course he would rely on them, he lost the versatility we are used to seeing. What do you want him to do, try using lolfireballs and on powerhouses like the Raikage?


----------



## Namikaze Naruto (Jul 14, 2011)

It's about time you feel that, OP.
I think Susano is good for finishing jutsu, but I have to admit that it's as boring as hell seeing Sasuke inside it and blah blah blah for his revenge while throwing shit to others.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 14, 2011)

I Blue I said:


> Why do so many people whine about this? I mean, think about it. *Sasuke was stripped of almost every technique in his arsenal after Orochimaru was sealed.*



Strip him of what?The only Oro jutsus he used were summoning snakes and oral rebirth.He still has his lighting techs he used the most even before Oro got sealed.


----------



## I Blue I (Jul 14, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Strip him of what?The only Oro jutsus he used were summoning snakes and oral rebirth.He still has his lighting techs he used the most even before Oro got sealed.



Orochimaru's regeneration and the Curse Seal, especially.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 14, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Strip him of what?The only Oro jutsus he used were summoning snakes and oral rebirth.He still has his lighting techs he used the most even before Oro got sealed.


Yes, indeed


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 14, 2011)

I Blue I said:


> Orochimaru's regeneration and the Curse Seal, especially.



Yes i mentioned oral rebirth.Yeah, cursed seal.. now he has hawk but didn't use it much 

So, cursed seal, oral rebirth, summoning snakes.. Yeah, that does not equal striped of almost every tech in his arsenal.


----------



## I Blue I (Jul 14, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Yes i mentioned oral rebirth.Yeah, cursed seal.. now he has hawk but didn't use it much
> 
> So, cursed seal, oral rebirth, summoning snakes.. Yeah, that does not equal striped of almost every tech in his arsenal.



Regeneration and Oral Rebirth aren't the same thing. And yes, those are all of the techniques he relied on after he absorbed Orochimaru. Sure, he supplemented them with Chidori variants, but they were what he primarily used. Notice the drastic change in his fighting style after he lost them.


----------



## Time Expired (Jul 14, 2011)

left behind said:


> Sasuke susanoo this, susanoo that. EMS will improve and evolve susanoo.   Hey dont get me wrong.  I like this as this is the MS that seems successful in his ways of battling.
> 
> What I am sick of is...I mean c'mon guys he'll be stuck in this bubble.  In my eyes its pretty invincible, but there might be a time it'll get a little crack from damage, then...craaackWTFthisISmanga. Unexpected is good, though unpleasant.
> 
> The kid's got alot of potential as an Uchiha and a shinobi.  Dont just limit your fapping for Susanoo.  Forget the emo/avenger personality but i get it for his hate dark chakra or w/e.  Its hard when you see the most probable, and you were shown the least then you go



Like many other jutsus, Susanoo has real sticking power on the boards.  It may have been used eon's ago, but people are still discussing it because of several factors.  There are still issues surrounding invulnerability, power requirements and life force, how it's equipt (or how Itachi augmented it), etc.  You have to admit, it's a pretty wicked jutsu both offensively and defensively.  But again, I think it's only discussed as much as it is because there are unsettled issues.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 14, 2011)

I Blue I said:


> Regeneration and Oral Rebirth aren't the same thing. And yes, those are all of the techniques he relied on after he absorbed Orochimaru. Sure, he supplemented them with Chidori variants, *but they were what he primarily used.*



Um, no.Lighting variants is what he used the most.Oral rebith was used once against Itachi.Regeneration?Don't remember when he used it in battle.Summoning snakes was used once against Itachi, there he mostly used, shurikens, fireballs and lighting, little cursed seal and sharingan to counter genjutsu.Against Deidara twice snakes and the rest was lighting and sharingan and he used cursed seal here longer.


----------



## I Blue I (Jul 14, 2011)

Sorry, by regeneration, I meant the accelerated recovery he gained from Orochimaru. One could say the Curse Seal was Sasuke's "Susano'o" back then. It played a major role in his victory against both his victory over Deidara and Orochimaru himself, hell, even against Naruto. Sasuke definitely wouldn't have been able to perform as well as he did against Itachi without it, either.

Against Deidara, he summoned snakes to be used as shields, needed the Cursed Seal for its offensive aerial capabilities after Deidara escaped Chidori Eisou's range, and of course, his famous escape from Deidara's final explosion.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 14, 2011)

I Blue I said:


> It played a major role in his victory against both his victory over Deidara and *Orochimaru himself*, hell, even against Naruto. Sasuke definitely wouldn't have been able to perform as well as he did against Itachi without it, either.



He was defeated by Oro in the real world and was going to get absorbed.Sharingan is what saved his ass and reversed the process.He was no longer in cursed seal mode before Oro's ritual:

Link removed
Link removed

Cursed seal no doubt helped in all his battles and against Naruto, is what gave him the victory, but was not his most used tech.Lighting is.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 14, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> He was defeated by Oro in the real world and was going to get absorbed.Sharingan is what saved his ass and reversed the process.He was no longer in cursed seal mode before Oro's ritual:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



C'mon now, leave the boy alone


----------



## Milliardo (Jul 14, 2011)

whens the last time we've seen susanoo?


----------



## Barioth (Jul 14, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> I would love for more characters to show a wider range of jutsus but almost all of them seem to love spamming their trump cards.



Tell me about it.


----------



## Prowler (Jul 14, 2011)

yeah, we need more rasengans . lol


----------



## Yakkai (Jul 14, 2011)

What prompted this? Its been over a year since Sasuke's really been in the manga. I know certain people, ahem, talk about Susanoo a lot but its only because of his absence. I can relate to that as a former Narutard who had to suffer through a seeming unending drought of Naruto material in the Naruto manga. Once Sasuke appears and finally does something new that should shut them up.


----------



## Barioth (Jul 14, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> How can you be sick of something we haven't seen in like a year?



You didn't watch the Anime this year. 

The last thing I need is Susanoo is related to the Gedo Mazo this and that. Similar Rasengan is compare to Bijuudama


----------



## joshhookway (Jul 14, 2011)

Sasuke-Susanoo
Naruto-Rasengan


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Jul 19, 2011)

Man I fuckin Hate how this whole Uchiha-Will Of Fire Senju blood shit has been taking over this manga


i fuckin hate this shit

remember characters like Lee, Neji, and Kiba actually doing stuff


----------



## cnorwood (Jul 19, 2011)

*what just killed this series for you?*

like the title says. 
mine was naruto hyperventillating over sasuke.
what about you?


----------



## tanman (Jul 19, 2011)

Sasuke taking A's hand.
That critically injured it for me. Didn't quite kill it.


----------



## Lawless1227 (Jul 19, 2011)

It hasn't quite been killed for me yet but randomness is starting to piss me off....V_V


----------



## HInch (Jul 19, 2011)

Whilst I still come back to it like a abused wife, my major problems were:

-Sasuke getting the finger poke of MS SPAM.
-Naruto being an emo bitch for large stretches.
-Sasuke being a boring bitch for large stretches.
-The worst of all though? Kisame being killed. And you did it to me TWICE TO MESS WITH MY HEAD KISHI ARGHHHHH


----------



## Kyu (Jul 19, 2011)

-Child of Prophecy bullshit


-Sasuke just being awful


-Naruto passing out over Sauce.


-Alot of other stuff.


----------



## Hi Im God (Jul 19, 2011)

Itachi
Oro going out with dues ex machina
Saskue ms spam


----------



## tanman (Jul 19, 2011)

KyuubiV3 said:


> -Child of Prophecy bullshit



This.
Why do so many authors feel inclined to recycle norms like "The Chosen One", "The One", and "The Child of Prophecy"?


----------



## SageRafa (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing so far 

But if you asked the thing I liked the least in the plot was definitely Nagato not surviving and not being a ally of Naruto ; Naruto + Nagato vs Madara would be sweet and he could also teach Naruto some Uzumaki Sealing ; make a Alliance between Konoha and Amegakure , he could have so much plot-importance it's not even funny


----------



## Legendary Madara (Jul 19, 2011)

None.

Thats why I come of Naruto forums. If anything 'killed' the series for me I wouldn't come on the forums anymore.


----------



## Haloman (Jul 19, 2011)

tanman said:


> Sasuke taking A's hand.
> That critically injured it for me. Didn't quite kill it.



Technically, he took his own hand. Though, he should've attacked using his newly created attack: Amaterasu Fist.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 19, 2011)

It was dying for me after the Sai arc but I got back into it after Bee ROFLSTOMPED you know who.

Its been all good ever since.


----------



## Klue (Jul 19, 2011)

Child of Prophecy is the only major issue I have with the story, really.


----------



## Twilight's Edge (Jul 19, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Naruto + Nagato vs Madara would be sweet and he could also teach Naruto some Uzumaki Sealing ; make a Alliance between Konoha and Amegakure , he could have so much plot-importance it's not even funny



I can agree with this.


----------



## Undead (Jul 19, 2011)

Getting excited greatly for edo Asuma's fight was a mistake.  It was nothing but Chouji development.


----------



## Yagami1211 (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing so far.


----------



## martryn (Jul 19, 2011)

Part II in general.  I knew something was wrong when Gai's team got no love during the Sasori arc.  Introducing Sai and Yamato was when the series started going downhill big time.  Point of no return involved Sasuke and Oro fight, and the over emphasis on eye jutsus in general.  Now I only read it because I have been for 7 years and I might as well see it through to the end, kinda like the Star Wars prequels.


----------



## cnorwood (Jul 19, 2011)

Legendary Madara said:


> None.
> 
> Thats why I come of Naruto forums. If anything 'killed' the series for me I wouldn't come on the forums anymore.



There is alot more to these forums besides the naruto story


----------



## Esmeray (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing did!


----------



## Pseudo (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing yet, but the Kin and Gin fiasco nearly turned me off.


----------



## Raidoton (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing. I don't like some things, like the child of prophesy stuff, but at the moment there is much more going on. And I like what's happening ^^


----------



## Mawashi Geri (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing has killed it for me. If I had to go with what "disappoints me"... Asuma and Jiraya being the only good characters to be killed. It takes away suspense when you know everyone is essentially safe. I got excited when it seemed Neji was going to betray the Alliance... but then I wanted to kick a baby when it was fake.


----------



## BXisAWOL (Jul 19, 2011)

Naruto making shadow clones while in Kyuubi chakra mode.


----------



## Undead (Jul 19, 2011)

Mawashi Geri said:


> Nothing has killed it for me. If I had to go with what "disappoints me"... Asuma and Jiraya being the only *EDIT*good** characters to be killed. It takes away suspense when you know everyone is essentially safe. I got excited when it seemed Neji was going to betray the Alliance... but then I wanted to kick a baby when it was fake.


Don't forget about Chiyo.


----------



## principito (Jul 19, 2011)

nothing... like it so far


----------



## Mawashi Geri (Jul 19, 2011)

Sarutobi Asuma said:


> Don't forget about Chiyo.



She was introduced to be killed off. Plus she would have died of hip displacement soon anyway or whatever else kills old people.


----------



## TheWon (Jul 19, 2011)

martryn said:


> Part II in general.  I knew something was wrong when Gai's team got no love during the Sasori arc.  Introducing Sai and Yamato was when the series started going downhill big time.  Point of no return involved Sasuke and Oro fight, and the over emphasis on eye jutsus in general.  Now I only read it because I have been for 7 years and I might as well see it through to the end, kinda like the Star Wars prequels.


You read my mine! The only thing that makes me feel good about still reading is the Hidden Lightning Ninjas. To see a group of Black Ninjas and they all are badass is awesome! Being a anime fan it's always rare to see a black character, but that they are not your token Black is great.


----------



## Melas (Jul 19, 2011)

I have to admit Naruto hyperventilating and letting the Kumo banshee exhaust her impotent rage on his face were two of the most ridiculous things I have had the misfortune to witness in this story and I had to take a break from following the manga for a while; but then I got over it. These events just reinforce the theory that it was never the author's intent to allow Naruto to be perpetually cool and he will always be trolled in some fashion after an epic moment. Thankfully we have Minato for the ultimate cool factor.


----------



## HighLevelPlayer (Jul 19, 2011)

Child of Prophecy/Jesusruto is killing it. Naruto was one of my favorite characters back when his future wasn't pre-destined.


----------



## Uchihα Itαchi (Jul 19, 2011)

Itachi dying, leaving his techniques to Sasuke. It didn't really kill it for me, it became a bit interesting because I wanted to know what would've happened next. But manga didn't become that interesting to read any longer since Itachi would be dead.. 'like the flashbacks though.


----------



## elephant_roar (Jul 19, 2011)

Poor character development (regression).

Naruto Part 1: perseverance, hard-work, freedom of choice vs fate
Naruto Part 2: child of prophecy bull

Sasuke Part 1: aloof, distant, "cool", seeks revenge but possibility of atonement
Sasuke Part 2: annoying sheet stain

Sakura Part 1 + Part 2: still a useless, whinny, burden

The rookie 9 Part 1: contenders; impression of an immersive "ninja world"; lots of mystery and potential

The rookie 9 Part 2: emasculated Narutard cheerleaders.


----------



## Ham (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing has killed it for me, which is why I keep coming back. 

But the thing that irks me the most is what a dumbass Sasuke is.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 19, 2011)

Kishimoto not really giving a shit about character balancing anymore.


----------



## Judecious (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing so far.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 19, 2011)

Melas said:


> I have to admit Naruto hyperventilating and letting the Kumo banshee exhaust her impotent rage on his face were two of the most ridiculous things I have had the misfortune to witness in this story and I had to take a break from following the manga for a while; but then I got over it. These events just reinforce the theory that it was never the author's intent to allow Naruto to be perpetually cool and he will always be trolled in some fashion after an epic moment. Thankfully we have Minato for the ultimate cool factor.



I completely agree with this.


Also, all the bullshit surrounding the shenanigan.All the ass-pulls techs.Crosbows out of nowhere, breaking paralyzing seals with hatred, taking your bother 's almost blind eyes and you will not only be able to see perfectly again but spam MS jutsu all you want... just annoying and retarded..


----------



## shinethedown (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing has killed it for me, but the whole Naruto/Sakura still being obsessed with Sasuke thing annoys me.


----------



## Uberchu (Jul 19, 2011)

Naruto's stupid attitude was really what killed the series for me. Plus, his fights were really what kept the series on for me, but the same old shadow clone and Rasengan spam got old.


----------



## PureWIN (Jul 19, 2011)

Nothing has ruined the series for me.

However, with Naruto it's like learn and/or use some FUUUUUUUUUUUTON jutsus already. I'm tired of Rasengan.


----------



## whytea (Jul 19, 2011)

For me it was when it became obvious that Kishi did not plan for eather the manga to last this long or for it to go in this direction. Things like the one tail going from a sand priest to a biju or the sharangan comming from the byakagan. Don't get me wrong I still enjoy the series. Just do like Kishi and pretend it never happened.


----------



## WaveyMali (Jul 19, 2011)

What really pissed me of the homosexuality plot In onepiece Luffy tries saving girls e.g Nami and Nico Robin it takes the length of 1 season however naruto the main plot is saving a dude which is taking more than 200 episodes.


----------



## Federer (Jul 19, 2011)

Part II in general. 

I'm not saying everything is bad in part II, but part I had it all. All those rookies having different jutsu, backgrounds, Kishi could and should have exposed it more. 

He also shouldn't have increased the gap between Naruto/Sasuke and the rest of the rookies this much. 

Orochimaru as the final villain would have also been possible if the maincharacters were a bit weaker than right now, the snake theme, the murderer of the Third Hokage, he would have fitted the bill. 

Naruto taking revenge for the Thirds' sake, maybe Orochimaru killing his rival Jiraiya and also taking revenge for that might have added to the anti climax. 

He somehow could have used the other villages to take down Akatsuki or take over that organisation. 

But Madara as final villain ain't that bad either.


----------



## NightRaven (Jul 19, 2011)

Poor character development and Sakura's obsession with Sasuke.


----------



## ZiharkXVI (Jul 19, 2011)

Legendary Madara said:


> None.
> 
> Thats why I come of Naruto forums. If anything 'killed' the series for me I wouldn't come on the forums anymore.



And there's the truth of it.  Gotta respect honesty.


----------



## Crona (Jul 19, 2011)

Well nothing has completely destroyed the manga for me but I would say the appearance of Minato has done a very good job at slowly killing this manga for me.


----------



## PuppetDoctor (Jul 20, 2011)

The manga got killed for me when I realized that Naruto is obsessed with Sasuke during the whole Kage Summit Arc (which I might add was the last arc I did enjoy). The war mostly has made me get sick of Naruto though. The dragging of the battles and the recycled plots of: 

-Side characters significant other shows up
-Side character has conversation with significant other
-Significant other realizes what they have done wrong and/or learns how much side character has gained
-Significant other is defeated and happy to know the side character has grown so much

Its bloody annoying how much this plot in the war keeps on getting reused and its getting boring. Plus Naruto spamming rasengan and his mutli-clone jutsu everywhere. And, that he is crazy overpowered. 

Just please Kishimoto end the manga already.


----------



## Magnet (Jul 20, 2011)

right now i would have to say that there is too much going on


----------



## Neptun (Jul 20, 2011)

realizing that chain of hatred and peace wouldn't be one-arc-themes when Karui and Omoi randomly started talking about their deep haaaaaatred for Sasuke because that guy abducted the second-most important guy from their village... 
oh, and of course Sasuke's DAAAAAAARKNESS () and everybody in the manga starting to talk about all three themes in a serious manner.


----------



## FearTear (Jul 20, 2011)

Neptun said:


> realizing that chain of hatred and peace wouldn't be one-arc-themes when Karui and Omoi randomly started talking about their deep haaaaaatred for Sasuke because that guy abducted the second-most important guy from their village...
> oh, and of course Sasuke's DAAAAAAARKNESS () and everybody in the manga starting to talk about all three themes in a serious manner.



If that's a consolation for you, it looks like the current arc completely lacks chain of hatred and darkness (the five countries are allied, the enemy -as Shikaku said- is not full of hatred but he's just a villain...)


----------



## CrazyAries (Jul 20, 2011)

I know that a thread was recently merged, but I would like to address its premise.

So far, nothing has killed the manga for me, since I still follow it, but there are things in Part 2 that really bother me.  For one, I did not like how the Pain Arc ended  I understand how Nagato was converted, but it far too rapid.  I hate the term "Cycle of Hatred" .  It is just too simple.  Not all problems can be attributed to hatred when some are started by douche nozzles who just do not want to recognize rights of others.  I dislike the fact that Naruto has been called the child of prophecy because it is redundant.  He is being told that he will do things that he would do anyway.  Like others have stated, it sucks that Naruto and Sasuke are that much more powerful than their peers.


----------



## Saru (Jul 20, 2011)

The ridiculous power jump...

Now the Konoha 11 (minus Naruto... ) seem just above fodder level.  

Also, the plot got too sidetracked by Sasuke and the Sharingan. I can understand why Kishi felt the need to put him in a few chapters, but I don't think the manga would have suffered from his absence for awhile longer... And regarding the Sharingan, it should have stopped at Susano'o with the abilities. And the Sharingan should have died with the Uchiha clan, barring Sasuke, Madara, and Itachi (looking at you, Danzo... ).


----------



## Barioth (Jul 21, 2011)

The story is okay but sometimes I feel Kishi prefer character over the story.  And you know when you have Characters > Story = Drama. Everyone issue put together to mesh well each character's issue. I prefer Story > Character as its a war and you choose which characters will likely fit the War scenario.


----------



## Friday (Jul 21, 2011)

I really wish Kishi wouldn't make every chapter a teaser.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2011)

Friday said:


> I really wish Kishi wouldn't make every chapter a teaser.


This. End of Thread.

Also when will he kill 1010?


----------



## Soca (Jul 21, 2011)

she's already dead


----------



## Lacie (Jul 24, 2011)

PuppetDoctor said:


> The manga got killed for me when I realized that Naruto is obsessed with Sasuke during the whole Kage Summit Arc (which I might add was the last arc I did enjoy). The war mostly has made me get sick of Naruto though. The dragging of the battles and the recycled plots of:
> 
> -Side characters significant other shows up
> -Side character has conversation with significant other
> ...



/Thread.

I'm just waiting for manga to end. The moment every Bijuu coming back from the dead gained a Sharingan and a Rinnegan, I thought that Kishimoto ought to wrap up everything quickly if he wanted to save whatever remaining respect I've had for him.


----------



## Aleph-1 (Jul 25, 2011)

Sasuke isn't dead.


----------



## Jad (Jul 27, 2011)

*Are you angry Rock Lee isn't in the Manga?*

Completely angry, seriously, so unfair. Gaara even had his fight and big glory moment before Lee, and a few encounters at the Raikage summit, I was actually feeling sorry for him cause I thought he was getting the same treatment as Lee. I was like, wow Gaara has a part finally ever since the start of Shippuden, and as time went passed.............and passed............and passed......I thought, wait, Gaara gets all these HUGE roles and parts in the manga, yet Lee (ok and Team Gai I guess) still nothing ?

I learnt the other day (I read the manga now since long ago), that there was no feature of the actual fight between Team Gai's clones....HOW CRAP!

Even TenTen has had more time then Lee in shippuden, so has Neji (even though that was Zetsu...still got to see him). This is crap, Naruto is whinning about how he doesn't have powers, and enough of this and that, and his weak. Oh get off it, LEE CAN'T USE NINJUTSU or GENJUTSU, what more handicapped do you want to get ? Yet Lee doesn't complain. The guy has GATES, how cool is that? Why not bloody utilize it, Lee personally saved the Chuunin exams from going crap to me :/ Even though some of those fights were pretty cool. It's funny, people looked down on Lee because of his character, but as soon as he landed that fight, WOOPY everyone went nuts. Then again with Kimmaimaro.....

Lee is the underdog, the character that anyone can relate to, the one that tells you hardwork can succeed, why is that message now lost ?

Are any of you annoyed ? And if you want, name your favorite character who has been neglected as well and would like to see them, but this is more concerning Team Gai and importantly *LEE*.

_If this is posted in the wrong section, so sorry.By the way, first time poster in this section, 99% of my posts are in Battledome._


----------



## maltyy (Jul 27, 2011)

Don't worry, Rock Lee will defeat Madara.


----------



## Jad (Jul 27, 2011)

maltyy said:


> Don't worry, Rock Lee will defeat Madara.



Kishimoto owes me that >_> and his small Rock Lee fan base.


----------



## Mane (Jul 27, 2011)

Yep, Rock Lee deserves much more. The thing is, I thought that Kishi would make a big deal about him surpassing Neji since that was his ambition for ages (and the whole hardwork vs genius was a big deal back then). Although Neji is a higher rank, Lee has finally surpassed Neji taijutsu, according to the DB. However, the manga has not shown this at all.


----------



## Supersonic Strawhat (Jul 30, 2011)

I wonder how it's going to end. Naruto is probably going to name Sasuke the Hokage. It'd be Kishimoto's attempt at a "beautiful" twist ending!


----------



## FoxxyKat (Aug 2, 2011)

I just want this shit to end already, please!


----------



## djbro1 (Aug 3, 2011)

*dissapointed at Masashi kishimoto*

for me the manga took a very bad turn when suddenly out of nowhere naruto was the strongest ninja and everyone started loving him. I also hate sasuke the guy is just full of shit and a wanna be itachi, i was one of the many people hoping orochimaru would kill sasuke but when i learned that oro died i was dissapointed.Naruto was a huge dissapointement to alot of fans and i think i speak the truth when i say kishimoto could have done alot better if he really cared about his manga. discuss.


----------



## Esmeray (Aug 3, 2011)

I think that it has gone perfectly.


----------



## LordPerucho (Aug 3, 2011)

The way Anko has been trolled, unacceptable that she gets beaten by someone who Kishi overpowered to death(Kabuto), Kabuto shouldve died when Oro fought Jiraiya and Tsunade....

Naruto going SSJ...., i swear, Super Sonic looks way better than Super Naruto.

Also Sasuke should've turned babyface after he met with Madara for the first time...


----------



## Soca (Aug 7, 2011)

It's not amusing to me anymore especially since his latest powerup I feel that he's just going to win every fight from now on with minimal effort until we get to the final fight with sasuke which he'll most likely win anyways. There's no surprises anymore just a whole lot of flashy fights that's it. Even when kabuto brought back all these dead people I didn't feel any excitement because I knew they were all going to go back in the ground eventually and leave little to no emotion for them because A. They're already dead B. they had no character development for me to care about.

Another thing is the damn rookies. Why introduce these kids when you're just going to dump them in the future, I loved these guys in part 1 they were cool, we had an whole arc with them helping naruto rescue sasuke but now they're just there. It's even more fucked up that the main character refuses to acknowledge these guys as his real friends that are still by his side after all these years. It's stupid just...stupid 

I also agree with what Jad said about lee, he's the true underdog not naruto because he can't use any type of ninjutsu yet he's strong as fuck. Naruto has the strongest beast in him and he's supposed to be an underdog? Fuck that kishi should've given him the 1 tailed beast or anything less than 9 then have him learn sage mode and finally use the beast mode as his final. That's what growth is not giving the main character the strongest power ever and have him become the strongest at the age of 16. tis bullshit.
/rantover


----------



## Saru (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm still pissed by the way Naruto was handled in Part II, especially now. Underdog my ass. One of my favorite characters (second only to The King), effectively tarnished in my eyes. Oh, well.

And the differences between Part I and II are pretty mindblowing. In Part I, Naruto challenged destiny. In Part II, he lives by it. In Part I, Minato was a mysterious badass who shed a bleak light on Naruto's past. In Part II, he overshadows the main character (and everyone in the manga not named Tobi) with one technique. In Part I, there was an awesome theme of teamwork in the manga, applying to even villains. In Part II, "X" character solos. In Part I, Itachi uses the MS to fodderize Jounin. In Part II, Sasuke _tries_ to fodderize Kage... And fails. In Part I, the Sharingan derives from the Byakugan. In Part II, the Byakugan is third-rate doujutsu. In Part I, Naruto discovers he is a Jinchuuriki. In Part II Naruto discovers he is a Super Saiyan.

/Rant Part II


----------



## Supersonic Strawhat (Aug 8, 2011)

Esmeray said:


> I think that it has gone perfectly.



I know there are principles about opinions and shit but, I let out an audible laugh when I saw this comment. Not kidding.


----------



## The810kid (Aug 13, 2011)

*The other Jonin got worse treatment than the other rookies*

Outside of kakashi,Gai and argubly Asuma Konoha's current generation of Jonin all have been This is probably even worse than the rookies lack of development due to all these guys being hyped up so big in the chunnin exams. Look at Ikibi he's one of the most intimidating characters Kishi created head of the interrogation squad was hyped as a drill sargant hardass and we see next to nothing from him. Anko was Orochimaru's pupil and received the cursemark. How cool would it be if she would have had a second stage mastered. She should have been trying to deal with Sasuke just as much as Kakashi. Shizune is Tsunades so offcourse she gets treated like crap but when they originally showed her and Tsunade Shizune seemed like she could atleast hold her own against pt 1 Kabuto but Naruto ends up doing better. Seriously Orochimaru's followers/ disciples Kabuto kimmimaro and Sasuke got decent respect. Jiraiya's students all got respect even konan. Shizune got overlooked for Sakura. Gemna looked cool maybe just give him a fight showcasing his skiils. Lets not even get started on Kurenai.


----------



## Ryan2113 (Aug 13, 2011)

I know some people will disagree with this as they felt that Hidan had a lot of potential, but i felt that Asuma came out worse. Kakashi has MS, was nominated for hokage, stood his ground against Kakazu, took out one of Deidara's arms. Gai took out Kisame and open gates like a boss. Asuma, son of a hokage, gets taken out by the weakest of all the Akatsuki members.


----------



## Saunion (Aug 13, 2011)

Even Kakashi got treated like shit tbh.

Personally I don't care about him, but I know if I was a fan of him I'd be livid after that "Kakashi rampage" bullshit.


----------



## Doge (Aug 13, 2011)

Ryan2113 said:


> Asuma, son of a hokage, gets taken out by the weakest of all the Akatsuki members.



Then that akatsuki member is beaten by a Chunin.

I think Kishi needs to rethink "S" rank.  I mean, FRS is S rank but Naruto learns it in one day?  I don't think so.


----------



## Setas1999 (Aug 13, 2011)

Saunion said:


> Even Kakashi got treated like shit tbh.
> 
> Personally I don't care about him, but I know if I was a fan of him I'd be livid after that "Kakashi rampage" bullshit.



Kakashi rampage will happen when he will fight and kill kabuto so no worries here.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Aug 13, 2011)

what? those are incredibly minor characters. why would anyone expect them to play a major part in the story?


----------



## Saunion (Aug 13, 2011)

Setas1999 said:


> Kakashi rampage will happen when he will fight and kill kabuto so no worries here.



Haha good one bro.

Oh wait you're serious.


----------



## Olympian (Aug 13, 2011)

Ryan2113 said:


> I know some people will disagree with this as they felt that Hidan had a lot of potential, but i felt that Asuma came out worse. Kakashi has MS, was nominated for hokage, stood his ground against Kakazu, took out one of Deidara's arms. Gai took out Kisame and open gates like a boss. Asuma, son of a hokage, gets taken out by the weakest of all the Akatsuki members.



Kakashi was only nominated for the Hokage spot in a time where in Konoha the only other candidate was an obvious antagonist. Hidan was never considered in the manga as the weakest Akatuski, only the one with the "slowest attack". But that was on a page where he was using his scytche to draw blood for the ritual against the two tails, the context may just be that he takes more time to kill someone than the others - because he uses a ritual that requires an especific thing.

But when you are immortal, time is usually your friend. 

Oh, and he also stood to kakashi. With prep against him. With a broken scytche. Against the Sharingan. You forgot to mention that.



lvl80elitetaurenchieftain said:


> Then that akatsuki member is beaten by a Chunin.
> 
> I think Kishi needs to rethink "S" rank.  I mean, FRS is S rank but Naruto learns it in one day?  I don't think so.



Beaten how though?

With prep and Kakashi working for him.

The Jonin can`t have it worse. Sure they were the vehicles for the devolopment of Sasuke, Naruto, Shikamaru and Choji (Ino and Sakura on a lesser scale), but most rookies haven`t done squat in part II. 

The Jonin were at least, given some devolopment (in Asuma`s case his background with the 12 guardians)and at least one new move each (Kamui, Gai`s Tiger move and Dust Storm).

Even Kurenai had a little background given with the Fox invasion.


----------



## Dec (Aug 13, 2011)

I would liked to have seen more from the minor jonnins, but with so much going on I can understand why Kishi can only really concentrate on the major characters and villains. It's unfortunate but understandable.


----------



## Marik Swift (Aug 13, 2011)

Dec said:


> I would liked to have seen more from the minor jonnins, but with so much going on I can understand why Kishi can only really concentrate on the major characters and villains. It's unfortunate but understandable.


This is true. If Kishi had focused on minor character's development then fans probably would have been pissed unless he placed them in really interesting fights. And even so, there wouldn't be enough protagonist to split apart so everyone can get a bit of feats.
Al thought if I was in his shoes I would use the war to give every character some good feats and upgrades(not like the shit he did with Ino and Shikamaru by only giving Choji a power up).​


----------



## Dark Red Z (Aug 13, 2011)

HI.


----------



## convict (Aug 13, 2011)

> Shizune is Tsunades so offcourse she gets treated like crap



LOL. Sad but how true. Hopefully we see the two redeem themselves...oh who am I kidding.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 13, 2011)

Dark Red Z said:


> HI.



Aren't you supposed to be barefoot and in the kitchen as well as pregnant?


----------



## The Spartan (Aug 13, 2011)

Tenten hasn't even had a proper fight shown this whole series? I think that's worse than Kurenais one failed Genjutsu. At least she got panel time for her baby lol.


----------



## Taltos (Aug 15, 2011)

I dont like the chakra arms or how easily chakra just pours froms everyones pores. 

Yellow naruto looks like goku.


----------



## navy (Aug 15, 2011)

Taltos said:


> I dont like the chakra arms or how easily chakra just pours froms everyones pores.
> 
> Yellow naruto looks like goku.



I disagree. Raikage is more SSJ like then Naruto.


----------



## PuppetDoctor (Aug 17, 2011)

This is not so much a complaint for the writing (which I still find this manga so boring right now that I feel it has no hope) but on the art. 

I find lately and maybe for awhile now that there is so much going on in the background of each panel that it is hard to keep up with the action. I also find the art style has changed a lot and the character designs are more boring.


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (Aug 21, 2011)

My major complaint:
Kishi DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO WRITE FIGHTS.
Lets also not forget his habit of trolling jutsu.I remember the pre-skip days when making a shadow clone, using the rasengan or chidori, and even someone activating the sharingan would get me excited.Now, I don't even acknowledge these events, 'coz they are so normal.And that rikodou sennin crap. . .uhh! Naruto is transforming from a unique manga with missions,ninja tools & stuff to a painful drama filled "bond" obsessed soap like series.


----------



## FearTear (Aug 21, 2011)

BringerOfCarnage said:


> My major complaint:
> Kishi DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO WRITE FIGHTS.



It's more like he forgot how to do so


----------



## Soca (Aug 21, 2011)

This whole section has gone into ruins I think, I saw someone get shutdown by 5 itachi fans just for liking jiraiya. The amount of threads revolving around him has increased by a lot as well, sure it's cool to hype your favourite character but making 20 of the same threads about itachi is ridiculous . It's also silly to see people complain about side characters getting less screen time and people saying "that's because the name of the story is about naruto" yet you have itachi or nagato who are side characters get more time and when people complain it's always responded "dude fuck you itachi rules"


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Aug 21, 2011)

Goobelle said:


> This whole section has gone into ruins I think, I saw someone get shutdown by 5 itachi fans just for liking jiraiya. The amount of threads revolving around him has increased by a lot as well, sure it's cool to hype your favourite character but making 20 of the same threads about itachi is ridiculous . It's also silly to see people complain about side characters getting less screen time and people saying "that's because the name of the story is about naruto" yet you have itachi or nagato who are side characters get more time and when people complain it's always responded "dude fuck you itachi rules"



I actually like Itachi. He was the first character in the manga to make me go "holy shit that is awesome!"... But yes I agree with you there.

The problem with the manga imo is that it has entirely degenerated into basically being an Uchiha story about the sharingan.

It started off being about Naruto in the very first arc, and with some interesting tidbits about Sasuke and sharingan. Later it had a sharingan-centric arc about Orochimaru and that was ok.

Then they introduce Akatsuki and that is holy shit awesome and so on... And then Sasuke starts doing ridiculous shit, and its more sharingan fapping, and then it turns out Akatsuki is ALSO about the sharingan and then there's even more sharingan fapping and then Danzou has sharingan and Madara has a freaking storage room full of sharingan.


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## Saunion (Aug 21, 2011)

I don't think the people who complain about Naruto being turned into Ninja Jesus, being part of the Uzumaki clan and a descendant/reincarnation of Rikudou Sennin or whatever it'll end up being understand that this stuff happend because of how ridiculous the Uchiha became and how much the manga focused on them in the expense of everything else. 

Hard work can get you so far. When you're up against a bunch of people who can warp reality with their eyeballs, it's a given shit is going to get slightly ridiculous.


----------



## CrazyAries (Aug 21, 2011)

The reason for Naruto's current role is understood .  I have said in the past that Naruto had lost his narrative due to the mount of attention given to the Uchiha in Part 2.  Of course, the Child of Destiny plot point is seen as a means to bring Naruto back into his own story, but that has not abated the attention given to the Uchiha and Sharingan.

On one hand, the Uchiha Massacre did warrant more attention, but overall, I do not like how it has been handled.  First of all, most of the clan was supposedly action with one brain.  Even if they acted due to discrimination, the result of a revolt could have been disastrous for both sides.  Secondly, Sandaime was excused for his part.  He was the Hokage, and should have had the last say in the process, but the massacre happened despite his wishes.  Third, it seems as if the rest of the village will never learn about it, although those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  Fourth, Naruto has not been shown giving much thought to it.  When he heard Madara's version of events, he almost told Sakura and the others to try and excuse Sasuke's behavior.  This was an action carried out by Konohagakure's leadership, and Naruto wants to be the Hokage.

Finally, the goal to save Sasuke has been tied to mission to save the world.  We are to believe that that will solve all of the problems in Naruto's world, but that does not get to the root of the matter.  The main reason behind all of the village's problems was the fact that shinobi are hired assassins.  That led to clans with kekkei genkai being -- in effect -- property of their respective villages.  There are child soldiers, as well.


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## Slagathor (Aug 22, 2011)

Sasuke! How many chapters has it been since we last saw that mother fucker? I mean, cmon already! Why the fuck is it taking Kishi so long! I want to see the EMS already. Enough about Naruto and all the other gay ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). I want some Sasuke time! :3


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## momma bravo (Aug 24, 2011)

hello all! first post here although I've been lurking around for years (mostly to check out other people's reactions to the absurdities in each chapter).

only two complaints:

1) Kabuto. If Kishimoto was purposefully trying to make the most annoying foil possible, then I think he succeeded with Kabuto. I just can't stand him at all. He makes me miss and appreciate _every_ other villian.

2) Timing. in my opinion the show drags things out way too long (unnecessary flashbacks and camera panning), yet in stark contrast the manga rushes through things way too quickly. Quick example, the past few chapters. no further explanation needed.


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## Yaaay (Aug 25, 2011)

I like how Sakura finally gets some attention, but I can't stop help hoping for more. She's the student of Kakashi and Tsunade, and teammate of two retarded ninja. Unfortunately she is only talented, which is clearly not enough.

AND GEEZ WHERE ARE TENTEN AND TEMARI?! Oh never mind. They also full under the group ninja "who are only talented and not gifted with super powers". Hard work doesn't matter! I don't see Rock Lee or Tenten doing anything notable.  



BringerOfCarnage said:


> My major complaint:
> Kishi DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO WRITE FIGHTS.
> Lets also not forget his habit of trolling jutsu.I remember the pre-skip days when making a shadow clone, using the rasengan or chidori, and even someone activating the sharingan would get me excited.Now, I don't even acknowledge these events, 'coz they are so normal.





Taltos said:


> I dont like the chakra arms or how easily chakra just pours froms everyones pores.



Thisssssssssssssss. Instead of "WOW HE JUST BLEW UP AN ENTIRE VILLAGE, HE MUST BE EXHAUSTED!!", the average reaction is more similar to "Oh, another village disappeared. Well, up to the next!"


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## Misery (Aug 25, 2011)

Seriously, why couldn't Kishimoto let Kabuto just stay himself? Improving his strength and giving him necessary power ups is one thing, but I don't recognize that smart and cunning character that he used to be anymore. He's neither Kabuto nor Orochimaru, just bland nobody. So much for finding his true self.


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## hutman (Aug 27, 2011)

*This is disgusting..*

Two of the best things about this shit manga? Itachi & Nagato. The latest chapters have truly ruined that as well. Kishimoto is revealing what an amateur he is when it comes to writing story. He is turning everywhere searching for an inch of credibility scattered along the Edo debris to redeem the failure of Madara's insertion. 

What does he do to alleviate some of the unbridled angst and ill feeling of the fans? Yes insert two discs of the most popular villains of the manga, in an quite unscrupulous act to overcompensate the serial misgivings, which have consistently rolled out with Madara/Kabuto epic fail combo. The recent tag team fight of decrepit Nagato and omnipotent Itachi is nothing more than a cruel and ignorant gesture to appease the worthless scum on these forums who worship such characters - a double edged polarisation if you like. By actually going ahead with such a shitty project he has removed all credibility and authenticity from this worthless crap of a manga. 

I am anxiously awaiting Sasuke's emotional abortion which will cap of quite an repulsive and hideous end to this pile of junk.


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## Talis (Aug 27, 2011)

I always said that Tobi will be revealed as Obito in this Kakashis year. Look at the current manga fact. Every single ET takes now like only 1-2 chapters even godlike ET like Itach-Nagato. Kishi is rushing the ET to finish of Tobi and reveal his identity in this year nobody will still believe it but the way the ET are way to fast. ^^

PS: And yet we didnt see anything specials about Kakashi except his off paneled rampage.


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## Milliardo (Aug 27, 2011)

dude this war has been trash since day one.. all the edo fights have been jokes.. you should have realised this by now. i find myself skipping chapters lately because of it..

just keep your expectations really really low and then just maybe you might be surprised in a good way.


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## Raiden (Aug 27, 2011)

Colt said:


> just keep your expectations really really low and then just maybe you might be surprised in a good way.



This. 

We established eons ago that Kishimoto's writing style is a bit different; he is rushing like there's no tomorrow. To me, I think he changes his mind sporadically. I can find any other reason why he would reintroduce nearly 40 characters, only to have even the best summons briefly appear. At least Itachi has broken control; I would have been sorely disappointed if he left us.


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## T-Bag (Aug 27, 2011)

nagato is a shit character, good that he's done. I was getting sick and tired of that emo anorexic crippled ginger anyway. Kabuto is even more shit. His time is almost up too.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm so sick of people complaining about manga's its put on the internet you read it for free...why are you complaining about something for free...you have lost nothing in reading it if you do not like it do not complain about a man who has in effect created an entire universe all by himself come up with the concept illustrated and put it to print...you come up with a better idea, do it yourself and see if after over a decade you're still writing unique and poiniant stories that appeal to everyone if you can't do that then STFU


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## Soca (Aug 27, 2011)

clickity click


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## Saru (Aug 27, 2011)

Colt said:


> dude this war has been trash since day one.. all the edo fights have been jokes.. you should have realised this by now. i find myself skipping chapters lately because of it..
> 
> just keep your expectations really really low and then just maybe you might be surprised in a good way.



This. It really, really helps.

I think I understand your frustration, OP. The most recent chapters made me realize the only reason I'm still reading this is for the ET, and some of the art.


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## GunX2 (Aug 27, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> I'm so sick of people complaining about manga's its put on the internet you read it for free...why are you complaining about something for free...you have lost nothing in reading it if you do not like it do not complain about a man who has in effect created an entire universe all by himself come up with the concept illustrated and put it to print...you come up with a better idea, do it yourself and see if after over a decade you're still writing unique and poiniant stories that appeal to everyone if you can't do that then STFU



/This

People are entitled to their opinions...but more then anyting people just bitch and complain about the manga. If you dont like it dont read it.


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## Hungry1 (Aug 27, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> I'm so sick of people complaining about manga's its put on the internet you read it for free...why are you complaining about something for free...you have lost nothing in reading it if you do not like it do not complain about a man who has in effect created an entire universe all by himself come up with the concept illustrated and put it to print...you come up with a better idea, do it yourself and see if after over a decade you're still writing unique and poiniant stories that appeal to everyone if you can't do that then STFU



Can't argue with that.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 27, 2011)

I agree this War Arc hasn't been that great, but if you really don't like the manga, then why read it?


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## hutman (Aug 27, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> I'm so sick of people complaining about manga's its put on the internet you read it for free...why are you complaining about something for free...you have lost nothing in reading it if you do not like it do not complain about a man who has in effect created an entire universe all by himself come up with the concept illustrated and put it to print...you come up with a better idea, do it yourself and see if after over a decade you're still writing unique and poiniant stories that appeal to everyone if you can't do that then STFU



'Complaining' kind of implies that I have arbitrary nuances in my own life, which I am simply throwing out of my pram at Kishimoto. That is not the case.

I was making an point which is an extention of the catasprophe of the War & Edo Tensei which have catergorically destroyed the manga, washing away all those great memories from part 1. Th recent comebacks of the manga's most popular characters is an indication that Kishimoto accepts he fucked up the manga, and is now on his knees.


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## Yaaay (Aug 28, 2011)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I agree this War Arc hasn't been that great, but if you really don't like the manga, then why read it?



Hope. It's really the only reason... I cannot possibly deny that the Naruto manga/anime used to be truly awesome. Battles were great, characters were well drafted, their development and growth was very interesting, and the plot was spectacular and emotional. Unfortunately, it seems this has only lasted till the first arc, and after Chiyo's death the manga/anime went drastically downhill with only a few bright parts such as the deaths of Jiraiya and Itachi. 

I'm hoping that the battles will become interesting again instead of overpowered random jutsu spam and overwhelming chakra stamina. I'm hoping the this 'bond' between Naruto and Sasuke will become interesting again, and/or settle down. I'm hoping that Sakura will get the growth she deserves instead of being continously neglected, and that she (for example) becomes a strong ninja like her teammates. And finally, I'm hoping for a twist in the story. Honestly I dont want this manga to end, I want* this part* of the manga to end. I wanna be done with it, it has been too long and it would be nice to see a Part 3.


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## Addy (Aug 28, 2011)

change poll to "most arrogant character?"


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't mind it now really, I thought it moved slow at parts and I mean real slow but it picks up just as fast when it needs to. I guess everyone just got spoiled after Naurto pretty much went apeshit on Nagato about a year ago.


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## Scorpion (Aug 30, 2011)

The entire war arc is stupid as hell. It had such potential.


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## BXisAWOL (Sep 5, 2011)

*Has Naruto stopped being a ninja manga?*

I know this may seem like something obvious to some and not so obvious to others but has this manga lost all sense of being ninja-like?

I mean we went from skillful thought out tactics in part 1 to Rasengans being spammed worse than the Kamehameha wave in part 2.

I think we all started reading the manga because there were noticeable power gaps and the battles used to epic.  When a weaker characters defeated a stronger character it was a big thing.  Now we have no idea where the top 30 characters stand anymore because everyone is spamming their best techniques right out of the gate in every single fight.

Supposedly very powerful shinobi or even "kage" level ninja are getting one chaptered or even one paneled.  It's ridiculous.  Where has the thought or shinobi aspect of battles gone?

I'm not saying that I absolutley hate where the manga is now but many people would probably agree with me that this series has gone in the shitter.  Kishi has seemed to have lost all sense of character development and I honestly fail to see anything ninja-like about this manga anymore.


Sorry for bitching so much.  Flame, Discuss, debate, etc.


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## T-Bag (Sep 5, 2011)

For the most part yah, but I don't mind. I love it the way it is NOW even more than I did before. But it was to be expected. Powers were going to increase inevitably


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## Deleted member 175252 (Sep 6, 2011)

im sick of PnJ...

why do naruto and sasuke always get free powerups


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## navy (Sep 6, 2011)

The Sharingan.

Kishi says every jutsu has a weakness. Not the Sharingan ones.....


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## Summers (Sep 6, 2011)

navy said:


> The Sharingan.
> 
> Kishi says every jutsu has a weakness. Not the Sharingan ones.....



The sharingan does have a weakness.

*Spoiler*: __ 



The sharingan


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## bullsh3t (Sep 6, 2011)

Better translators.


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## Greedy master (Sep 7, 2011)

*Official Manga Complaints Thread - Telegrams Branch*

i dont get it at all  it makes no sense , naruto supposed to have a limit on his rm cloak but thats not the case at all , he can even make a bijuu dama with his bushins and corner the tsuchikage ,  third raikage just got an insane amount of hype for no reason and he shows some generic chidori move instead of his black element which is his unique technique.........

every chapter since nagato/itachi fight  gives me a feeling of cheesiness and everything happens soooo fast and it makes no sense at the same time,its almost like trolling.... ,  is it only me who feels this way?


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## Pattabayo (Sep 7, 2011)

It's not only you. I think the quality droped since Naruto & Sasuke met again.


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## Recal (Sep 7, 2011)

I stopped trying to make sense of it years ago.  Now I just oooh and aah at all the big booms and the pretty lights and the spectacular feats as they come screaming out of nowhere. As long as it's entertaining, the manga fulfils its purpose as far as I'm concerned.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Sep 7, 2011)

No offense OP but Naruto has ALWAYS been a cheesy manga . Hell, it will probably go down in history as one of THE most cheesiest mangas of all time once it's all said and done.


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## Gabe (Sep 7, 2011)

always been cheesy


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## jdbzkh (Sep 7, 2011)

Man this whole war arc is cheesy. It's just used as nothing more than fan service once Madara and Sasuke enter the war it'll stop being so bad but then again.. Seeing two characters take out armies will be face palm worthy.


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## batman22wins (Sep 7, 2011)

The raikage just ranked RS from close range. If his chidori is generic why it just destroyed the wall and having them running. Tell me who else can tank RS?


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## Greedy master (Sep 7, 2011)

you could explain most things before and it progressed slow , now you cant explain anything at all  and its like kishi is in rush to finish it , seriously the speed everything happens is insane , i think it lacks feeling which naruto used to have and made everything look normall , now the fights are potentially better and all but there is no feeling behind it  and it makes it look retarded.


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## 9TalesOfDestruction (Sep 7, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> I'm so sick of people complaining about manga's its put on the internet you read it for free...why are you complaining about something for free...you have lost nothing in reading it if you do not like it do not complain about a man who has in effect created an entire universe all by himself come up with the concept illustrated and put it to print...you come up with a better idea, do it yourself and see if after over a decade you're still writing unique and poiniant stories that appeal to everyone if you can't do that then STFU



When you read something for 5+ years and it all of a sudden turns to shit, it's hard not to complain.  We wouldn't complain if we didn't used to enjoy this manga.  

With that said, it's really hard for me to read these new chapters. Super Saiyan Naruto vs the Undead characters we've never heard of before.  

I did like when sasuke appeared briefly, even his new darth vador self is a breath of fresh air compared to whats been going on.


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## Tonga1 (Sep 7, 2011)

*why temari why?..*

why u did the role of naruto cheerleader ?? temari vs tayuya so far in the time..


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## m1cojakle (Sep 7, 2011)

*RASENGAN, ALL THE THINGS!*

seriously, kishi needs to write better battle scripts.  rasengan shouldn't be Narutos answer to everything.


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## BlinkST (Sep 7, 2011)

It's just his specialty. Everyone has one, including the kage with lightning element that he's fighting. I have to say I _*loved*_ how Naruto outwitted the third.


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## ovanz (Sep 7, 2011)

Rasengan is a shitty answer, but i still prefer rasengan over his tnj lame speeches. The only ones i liked were in part 1 against zabuza and gaara.


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## Supersonic Strawhat (Sep 8, 2011)

What dumbass said we should excuse the poor quality of this professionally distributed material because it's free for us on the Internet? You think Kishimoto isn't getting money for this crap?


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## Kuromaku (Sep 8, 2011)

The Sharingan has become quite the plot tumor, and by extension, so too have the Uchiha.  Granted, this is an old complaint, and others have probably expressed their frustration about this better than I have in the past, so I won't get into it.

And I know that it's also old, but I honestly didn't care much for the Pain vs Naruto fight, despite my love for the former.  It just felt so poorly paced and half-assed in its execution.  The panel layout per chapter just made the fight seem overly drawn out when things were supposed to be tense and events were happening at a breakneck speed.  Instead, it just felt like watching molasses slide down a spoon.  It didn't help that rather than feeling suspenseful, the fight simply had Naruto dominating for a few chapters, Pain dominating for a couple, and then Naruto dominating again, with each of these points of domination being interrupted by drawn out dialogues and other events like Hinata's confession and Minato's sudden appearance.

The fight could have been something special, but it just didn't do it for me like another climactic battle where Naruto saves the day: Naruto vs Gaara.


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## Supersonic Strawhat (Sep 8, 2011)

What feels "drawn out" is this war. I mean, I know it was important to finish off that Raikage in a manner that suited his legacy but everytime he got up after those attacks I was seriously like "Oh come on... ". Not because it was stupid or bad, but because it was boring. I don't care about this guy or his legacy. These guys are dead and have been brought back through limited means. There's nothing here to advance their stories in any way so I'm not going to care about them.

I know the point is to care about the battles and see their fancy old tricks but... Kishimoto hasn't really been making them all that interesting. Some of them have been admittedly but... the majority aren't.


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## LordPerucho (Sep 8, 2011)

BXisAWOL said:


> I know this may seem like something obvious to some and not so obvious to others but has this manga lost all sense of being ninja-like?
> 
> *I mean we went from skillful thought out tactics in part 1 to Rasengans being spammed worse than the Kamehameha wave in part 2.*
> I think we all started reading the manga because there were noticeable power gaps and the battles used to epic.  When a weaker characters defeated a stronger character it was a big thing.  Now we have no idea where the top 30 characters stand anymore because everyone is spamming their best techniques right out of the gate in every single fight.
> ...



DB(martial art skills) and DBZ(Ki blasts)


No wonder Kishi is a DB/Z fan


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## Ichiurto (Sep 8, 2011)

I hate the villains. They are all cheesy, boring and pathetic. The two best villains we had were Pain and Orochimaru. One turned into a perverted child-molester obsessed with Uchicha, the other turned into a sniveling, pathetic, wheel-chair bound choir boy.

I hate that the main-character (Naruto) sucks so much. I hate how his entire story, his entire character was completely ruined and stomped on in Part 2. I hate what he has already become, and what he will become in the future. I hate that he had all his likeable traits erased, and turned into a one-dimensional messiah figure with no believability. I hate how obsessed he is with his "best-friend" who he shared a short, 6 month semi-friendship with. I hate how unbelievable that plot focal point is.

I hate that the second main-character (Sasuke) has turned into such a non-intelligent loser. I hate how he's become so uninteresting and how easy he has become to manipulate. I hate how he's going to turn into a good-guy despite being irredeemable by any logical standards.

I hate that Kakashi was turned into a useless reject with no power to do anything.

I hate that Sakura is still useless 500+ chapters in.

I cannot stand what the author has done with the plot. I hate how he threw away such potential to write a living, breathing world. I hate how he gave no other side-characters real, significant plot development. I hate how we know nothing of the other Jinchurriki, but will get rushed, pathetic versions that don't feel authentic in the future.

I hate how everyone and their mother has one move they use over and over and over. The battles are boring, and a chore to read.

In Short, I hate everything about Part 2. It ruined this manga to the point of making it Bleach level garbage.


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## C-Moon (Sep 9, 2011)

I hate that Kishi's idea of hype is "turn the other guy into a drooling moron." I hate how characters nowadays are merely embodiments of obnoxious tropes. It's ridiculous how Kishi has characters make douchebag moves, then try to give it a justification, like with Gaara's dad and Itachi. 



I hate this focus on a "bond" that, for the past 6 years of real time, has been largely destructive. The focus on the Uchiha came at the detriment of nearly everything else. I hate the fact it took Kishi 8 years to expand his world beyond Konoha and Suna, and an additional year to introduce all the Kages.


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## auem (Sep 9, 2011)

i hate how kishi handled sakura's char.. 
oda said kishi's wife looks like sakura...it seems kishi pour out all his domestic complains on sakura...


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## Red Raptor (Sep 9, 2011)

The mangaka seriously needs to make use of the other characters he has created and not have Bushin clones do all the fighting. I know and recognise that the main character is called Naruto, but GEEZ how many bushins and rasengan variations can there be before turning off more readers? Let the others SHOW off their techniques and the war was the best way to do that. Instead Bushin clones are now gonna do all the work!


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## Hoshigakure (Sep 9, 2011)

This manga just become so utterly boring. This entire arc is such a waste.


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## kisame123 (Sep 10, 2011)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> The focus on the Uchiha came at the detriment of nearly everything else.


still in denial and blaming the Uchiha's, eh? total denial, the Uchiha haven't even been relevant for the past 50 chapters and yet the manga has gone through its worst period. Uchiha are the only thing stopping people from leaving the manga altogether. the truth is that the main character, his powers, and the supporting cast, and the overall plot and direction of the story-which caters to fanservice- are the factors that are destroying this manga. 

what has ruined the manga? *fanservice*. having Naruto fodderize Edo Kages, temporarily surpass Raikage in speed for plot purposes and only to have him become slower later on. trolling Yondaime's statement on Madara to make him look good, setting Itachi's power as a "great hope" to stop Sasuke and then retconning it into something else that isn't needed anymore because it would make Naruto look like a total looser. bringing Itachi back from Edo Tensei and retconning Shisui's story. changing the appearance of the bijuu cloak for only Naruto to draw parallels with Rikudou Sennin, without even explaining the cause. connecting him to Rikudou Sennin in new ways each chapter. assasinating Sasuke's character in a few chapters so that he can be converted under the new theme of "hatred" that replaces the theme of "Bonds". having kisame fail in a mission only to have him do it again and then fail again, etc. the story is soaked in retcon, filled with holes. 

oh yeah and the only reason why most continue to read this garbage each week is anticipation for the chance that we might see Madara or Sasuke. nothing else.


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## Itαchi (Sep 11, 2011)

*Was there a point where you stopped reading the Manga?*

Title says everything.

I stopped reading the Manga for a while, when Sasori and Deidara got fodderized by team noob. I was dying to see the Akatsukis in action and all I got was fodder.

How about you ?


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## Escargon (Sep 11, 2011)

*I think around Itachi VS Sasuke fight. I got way too hyped for that.

I want to stay away from Naruto in about a year to reveal Madaras face but thats not possible*


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## Itαchi (Sep 11, 2011)

Escargon said:


> *I think around Itachi VS Sasuke fight. I got way too hyped for that.
> 
> I want to stay away from Naruto in about a year to reveal Madaras face but thats not possible*



How sad but its the same. I would like to stop with the manga too. But I cant lol. I wish I would have never accidentally clicked Naruto chapter 550 to see Itachi freeing from Edo... .


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## Saturday (Sep 11, 2011)

I stopped after Asuma's death because I wanted to become an anime only fan. But I couldn't resist.


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## Yoburi (Sep 11, 2011)

I stop when Kakuzu was one shooted by a very tierd and weak Naruto using a shit rasengan that just got bigger but the part that i hated is that Naruto have 2.5 years to training with Jiraya and return with nothing and them in one week using a lame and cheap KB training he became stronger than Kakashi... i call bullshit.

I only read bits and pieces these days but don't care much about the manga anymore...


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## Itαchi (Sep 11, 2011)

> I wanted to become an anime only fan. But I couldn't resist.



Same I tried that, too...


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## Emo_Princess (Sep 11, 2011)

No,Though sometimes i skip a few chapters and maybe go back to them later,If they don't interest me enough.

For the sake of certain characters,I can't stop reading


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## tgm2x (Sep 11, 2011)

Only for a few weeks to read the whole fight at once for example


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## navy (Sep 11, 2011)

Kishi can write whatever shit he wants, I wont ever stop reading.


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## Itαchi (Sep 11, 2011)

navy said:


> Kishi can write whatever shit he wants, I wont ever stop reading.



This is what I thought too before seeing Akatsuki getting trashed by trash.


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## Wizard (Sep 11, 2011)

stopped around when naruto figures out about the war cuz i had to go out of the country with no internet for 2 months.


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## withering blossoms (Sep 11, 2011)

Recently? At the start of the war. Mass Edo Tensei and Zetsu army never appealed to me, so I just stopped reading for a few months.

But I couldn't stop reading forever, so I came back.


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## PureWIN (Sep 11, 2011)

I will never stop reading, but I usually decrease my involvement in this forum (Konoha Library) whenever it starts getting crappy.

I see no reason to stop reading the manga. It takes maybe about ~5min to quickly read through it? It's nice to find out what happens.

However, if the manga is really pissing me off, I simply won't come to the forums to discuss it.


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## Cromer (Sep 11, 2011)

Stopped reading when the War got started. Started again three weeks ago. Will probably drop again for a few months.


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## Faustus (Sep 11, 2011)

After Nagato commit suicide resurrecting Konoha I thought I'll never read it again. But... Bee actually helped me to stay interested.


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## αce (Sep 11, 2011)

I never stopped reading, but I stopped caring after Nagato died.


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## Coldhands (Sep 11, 2011)

Never stopping :I


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## Faustus (Sep 11, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I never stopped reading, but I stopped caring after Nagato died.



That's actually a more accurate description in my case, also.


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## k2nice (Sep 11, 2011)

Stopped when naruto beat kakuzu came back a month later and stopped again when naruto saved sakura out of some bullshit.


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## Canute87 (Sep 11, 2011)

After Naruto was sucking most of part 2 i adopted this simple philosophy.


No expectations, No disappointments.


It has carried me through even now.


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## The Baron (Sep 11, 2011)

After everyone got resurrected at the end of the Pain arc.
I've made peace with the fact that established characters only die once in a blue moon.


----------



## Addy (Sep 11, 2011)

minato vs kyuubi+madara. naruto training the moment he fought kyuubi in his mind 

gaara vs his father. 


all that shit is borin as hell for me :/


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## Cjones (Sep 11, 2011)

Never stopped reading cause I still like it.

Though the and of Pain arc made me lose the enthusiasm I once had and the flashback for the 9-tails attack on Konoha I found disappointing, which caused me to "Meh" to the majority of things that happen now.


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## Turrin (Sep 11, 2011)

I stopped for a little bit during the immortals arc, since it was the weakest arc in Part II imo, however I didn't stop for very long. Fact of the matter is the manga is free and takes about 2min or less for me to read a chapter, so the manga is not so bad where I couldn't waste 2min of my time on it. Now obviously I think that Naruto manga is pretty good [not the greatest ever, but probably the best or second best Shounnen] since I spend a-lot of time discussing it on the forums, but i'm just saying it would take something very stupid to happen for me to actually stop reading it.

The Aizen vs Ichigo battle in bleach would be an example of something that stupid, since I stopped reading bleach after that, though even than I'm thinking of picking it up again simply because again it only takes 2min to read and its free.


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## αce (Sep 11, 2011)

> minato vs kyuubi+madara.



Possibly the biggest troll in all of manga. Kishi disregarded Minato's past statements in order to give his love child more feats.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Sep 11, 2011)

I only started reading the manga since last year.  

Only time I stopped reading it is when I went on holiday.


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## Addy (Sep 11, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Possibly the biggest troll in all of manga. Kishi disregarded Minato's past statements in order to give his love child more feats.



yup..............


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## Ana (Sep 11, 2011)

i stopped for about 2 months after Madara stole Nagato's eyes,
that freaked me out


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## Crona (Sep 11, 2011)

Well I stopped taking it seriously ever since the whole Messiah thing.  Basically I only read it for Madara panels but I have become increasingly irritated from the lack of Madara in the war.


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## αce (Sep 11, 2011)

> Basically *I only read it for Madara panels* but I have become increasingly *irritated from the lack of Madara in the war.*



I love you.


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## Crona (Sep 11, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I love you.



Lubs you too pek


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## Sarry (Sep 11, 2011)

After PartII showed its ugly head, I just dropped whatever standard I used to have for the manga; I still read it, but it doesn't have the same kick it used to have. 

It's about this 'fate, hate and love' crappy theme. It forced the manga to become a cheesy story


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## Jυstin (Sep 11, 2011)

"Sorry Sasuke. This is the last time."

/end reading

"What stands before Madara's two *most trusted, powerful forces, Itachi and Nagato*...!?"

/start reading again


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## lathia (Sep 11, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Possibly the biggest troll in all of manga. Kishi disregarded Minato's past statements in order to give his love child more feats.





You can't blame Minato for being perfect at everything


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## Prototype (Sep 11, 2011)

A lot of the Confining the Jinchūriki Arc, up until Gai vs. Kisame.


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## Saturnine (Sep 11, 2011)

I don't see why I should stop reading. Even if something's pretty boring at the moment, Kishi always knows how to hook you. At best, he reveals a nice plot twist each chapter. Lately it's been like say two to three.


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## Saturnine (Sep 11, 2011)

BTW call me an Itachi wanker, but IMO Itachi lacks that offputting quality that Minato has, even though he kicks the same amount of ass.


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## Disquiet (Sep 11, 2011)

There was never a point when I stopped reading; there was, however, a point when I stopped _caring_. That would be the end of the Konoha invasion arc, or whatever people have been calling Pain's invasion of Konoha these days. Resurrecting everyone at the end screwed things up in ways I've described too many times before, and was a bit of a double blow since it all but ruined what was otherwise the best arc in years.

I could have handled that, though, had the manga recovered afterwards. But almost everything since then, even the decent stuff, has felt somehow empty. I don't care about any of the multitude of characters introduced since then, and it's been a long time since I cared about most of the greats from part 1 too. Naruto's just not really for me any more, I suppose.


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## O-ushi (Sep 11, 2011)

I did read a few chapters because I got curious from watching the anime, but because of how different it was I stopped reading it. I guess its because the manga was a lot more "compact" that it sort of put me off unless I was reading in bulk (it was the first time I read manga). Around the time when Itachi and Kisame first appeared was when I got back in the manga bandwangon because I got totally hooked during this arc. After that I really couldnt shift away from the manga and watched the anime less often and stopped completely after Tsunade becomes Hokage. Also the manga was just a lot more accessible than the anime. I started watching again after I saw Sasuke/Naruto fight at the VotE cause it was different from the manga, but I stopped watching again during the first arc of Shippuden, I dont know whether it was because an episode would be so filler'd out, or that the anime just couldnt keep up with my expectations. Either way the manga really messed up watching the anime.


----------



## left behind (Sep 11, 2011)

I usually stopped reading when there's a net connection error or a blackout.




Y'all got issues 


.


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## Palpatine (Sep 11, 2011)

Stopped reading for a while just before the Pain invasion arc.

Stopped for a while again during the later half of the kage summit arc, about the time the confining the jinchuuriki arc was beginning.

I just lost interest and the last bit of respect I had for the manga once I saw the edo akatsuki members.


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## Malumultimus (Sep 11, 2011)

I stopped about the time Naruto went Kyuubi on Orochimaru. Sasuke was coming to shit up the manga, Orochimaru being pedo, Sai talking nonstop about penises, Yamato being a fucking clone or something - honestly couldn't give a shit. Came back when I heard new Akatsuki were introduced.


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## T-Bag (Sep 11, 2011)

Nope. This is the ONLY manga I've never stopped reading. Or even MISSED a week. Something about this manga that just attracts me to it, I don't know what it is, but it does.


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## KingBoo (Sep 11, 2011)

whenever i see sakura, kakashi, or shikamaru, i quickly move onto the next page. too boring. sometimes i skip sauske pages if he's not doing anything crazy. thankfully kishi has hidden them for the most part.


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## Haloman (Sep 11, 2011)

These threads always amuse me. If you're unsatisfied with a manga, why don't you stop reading it?  I've stopped reading several manga that I don't care for any longer. It's really not that hard.

The really funny part is that the majority in this thread appear unsatisfied, and not only continue to read the manga, but also post in a forum related to the manga.

I'm sure Freud would say this has something to do with your mother.


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## namezox (Sep 11, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> These threads always amuse me. If you're unsatisfied with a manga, why don't you stop reading it?  I've stopped reading several manga that I don't care for any longer. It's really not that hard.
> 
> The really funny part is that the majority in this thread appear unsatisfied, and not only continue to read the manga, but also post in a forum related to the manga.
> 
> I'm sure Freud would say this has something to do with your mother.



Just because some of us find the manga "unsatisfying", doesnt mean we will stop reading it all at once. Many of us had invested YEARS into the manga. and It is a free 10min "read".

Topic: i stopped "reading" the manga a few months since PART II started. I mainly just give a quick "read".


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## crystalblade13 (Sep 11, 2011)

nope, because this manga is actually good unlike all of the negative comments here. if you dont like it, then good, dont read it- people who like it would prefer less pointless whining from people who think they could do better (when they likely couldnt).

*end rant against ranters*


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## Aeiou (Sep 11, 2011)

I stop reading the manga about the end of every Wednesday, but always get back into it 7 days later.

Oh wait...


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## Xavierthelegend (Sep 11, 2011)

I didn't read the manga for 4 weeks just to see if I had the will power to stop watching something I was addicted to reading.

They had a vacation in that time so it was only 3 chapters I saw. I have beast will power so I call it a success.


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## Summers (Sep 11, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> These threads always amuse me. If you're unsatisfied with a manga, why don't you stop reading it?  I've stopped reading several manga that I don't care for any longer. It's really not that hard.
> 
> The really funny part is that the majority in this thread appear unsatisfied, and not only continue to read the manga, but also post in a forum related to the manga.
> 
> I'm sure Freud would say this has something to do with your mother.



lol truth. Naruto always amuses. At least the "I stopped reading" trend after every chapter in telegrams has stopped. How many times have you seen the "see ya next week" response. I dont really think there a that many who truly stopped reading the manga if there here posting. More likely they decided to take a break for a while so they can enjoy a 10 chapter backlog marathon and be pleasantly be surprised, then continue.


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## Automatic (Sep 11, 2011)

I can't stop reading Naruto. It's impossible. 

In fact, I have trouble not to re-read a chapter more than once just so I don't miss any bit of it.


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## Summers (Sep 11, 2011)

The only time a stopped reading was because of a vacation, to busy and forgot, or to see how long i could go without. Never for to long though since kishi made himself a manga that I am invested with and I am sure its the same with the vast majority who tried.

Seems this has been moved were it belongs.


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## Palpatine (Sep 12, 2011)

namezox said:


> Just because some of us find the manga "unsatisfying", doesnt mean we will stop reading it all at once. Many of us had invested YEARS into the manga. and It is a free 10min "read".
> 
> Topic: i stopped "reading" the manga a few months since PART II started. I mainly just give a quick "read".



This.

My main reason I keep reading is to see how it ends. I've read it for years after all. Although I'm almost certain the ending will not satisfy tbh.

I haven't taken this manga seriously for a long time now.


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## Neptun (Sep 12, 2011)

I stopped reading the kage arc when all the kages started behaving like children. Danzo randomly running away into the woods and trying to kill Ao, everybody starting to seriously talk about Sasuke's DAAAAARKNESS and HAAATRED  and Sakura's confession of course  
I'm glad the manga has become better since then.


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## cloudsymph (Sep 12, 2011)

Neptun said:


> I stopped reading the kage arc when all the kages started behaving like children. Danzo randomly running away into the woods and trying to kill Ao, everybody starting to seriously talk about Sasuke's DAAAAARKNESS and HAAATRED  and Sakura's confession of course
> I'm glad the manga has become better since then.



has it really though 

i'm not one to tell other what they should and shouldn't like, but imo, the manga went crap at beginning of part 2 and slowly got worse...then plummeted fast to as low as low can be....or so i think, but kishi never ceases to surprise me with making it worse and worse.


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## LeeUchiha (Sep 12, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> These threads always amuse me. If you're unsatisfied with a manga, why don't you stop reading it?  I've stopped reading several manga that I don't care for any longer. It's really not that hard.
> 
> The really funny part is that the majority in this thread appear unsatisfied, and not only continue to read the manga, but also post in a forum related to the manga.
> 
> I'm sure Freud would say this has something to do with your mother.



I did stop reading it. For about 32 chapters, or since January. Still haven't completely caught up, partially afraid to. After Kankawo melted dee old Sasowee's heart as an acquaintance, or how Sai was ruined when his brother was stupidly shoehorned in with no foreshadowing or buildup, I knew what to expect. 

Lack of Naruto was refreshing on the creative faculties. But eventually I thought, well it's been 30 chapters, maybe things have turned? 

This guy Kishimoto has us by the balls. We can?t get closure until he?s made enough money and finally offs it. Man oh man I could talk for 10 pages about how dumb this arc is but I won't because I'm sure you love Naruto too much to care. You and many here would love this manga even if was just Rescue Sasuke arcs up the ass, Naruto fainting, Sakura hitting him ad nauseum


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## ceralux (Sep 16, 2011)

I really detest Naruto (the character). The manga becomes extremely predictable, annoying and boring when he's fighting or the focus. Nothing breaks him off from the normal/average Shounen protagonist. DULL fighting style. Naruto has unlimited potential yet the only jutsu he ever uses is the Rasengan. Every other wind element user in this manga was much much more interesting to watch fight. Danzo and Asuma both used their elements to enhance their ninja tools. Naruto does fucking nothing. He's been using the rasenshuriken for like 3 years now holy fuck.


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## Fay (Sep 18, 2011)

*The manga is actually pretty damn good...*

I think around 1.5 years ago I left this forum and manga behind during the 'reunion' between Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura & Naruto because I was a butt hurt Sasuke- & pairingtard.

Now the Sandaime raikage chapter talks renewed my interest and I decided to start reading the manga again from where I stopped. No fandoms and anti-fandoms to influence me, no spoilers too brood over and no time to make up little fantasies on how *I* want the next chapter to play out I read chapter after chapter and I realized why exactly this manga is so popular worldwide: *for a shounen manga it's pretty damn good.*

*The main character*
Naruto is easy to relate to and despite people on this forum riling each other up to bash his character, I think he IS written quite good. Funny, a warm personality, caring and serious when necessary. His interactions with his friends, especially Sasuke, I find quite entertaining...and while reading I can't help to root for him to save his friend and become hokage.

*The fights*
Concerning fights & powerups, these too are written well in my opinion. I can't help but wonder where the mangaka gets his inspiration from; the combination of strength, magic and tactics result in entertaining fights doing justice to both fighters and thereby surpassing mangas like Dragon Ball Z for sure.

*Emotions & pairings*
Another thing this manga exceeds in is getting emotion out of the reader. The chapters with Konan's end, the chapters with Naruto & his parents past, with Gaara's mother no doubt brought a tear or two to my eyes.
And then I understood why exactly Kishimoto bothers with pairings, unlike many other shounen writers. Falling in love, rejection, heartbreak...emotions everyone has to deal with and quite fitting in a manga such as this.

*Conclusion*
When you read the chapters one after another without being influenced by fandoms the word 'troll' never comes to mind. Why? Because Kishimoto wants to tell us a story. It's not about every chapter being it's own story, but about the chapters from the first one to the very last one being one complete story. The story hasn't ended yet, so be patient and keep being entertained until the very last chapter...and then no doubt everything will fit like a glove. The little twists in the story sparks the interests of the readers and forms the manga of Naruto.

*End words*
Favorite characters, favorite pairings...They are part of the manga, but there are many more components in there as well. Everything as a whole makes it into what it is, so try not to be blinded by your fantasy expectations and read the manga as it is, I think you'll definitely enjoy it more.
So what if your favorite character won't be the strongest ever or you favorite pairing won't get it's ever after? It's fiction, made for entertainment and most definitely not the end of the world .


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## Daylight (Sep 18, 2011)

Amen. It's very popular to bash Kishi's writing and while sometimes I agree that it can be improved, overall, there's a reason why we all bother to read this manga.


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## BroKage (Sep 18, 2011)

His friend doesn't deserve rescue. He killed Jay's salamander and that samurai.


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## Namikaze Naruto (Sep 18, 2011)

Very well said, exactly what I have in mind.

Naruto Manga offers more interesting fight than another manga, for example, Bleach..
Naruto also have very 'heavy' topics including justice, revenge, love, and peace. It's not an easy one-sided story telling like Gashbell, it's more like Samurai X or One Piece while persistently exceeding both of them.

I dislike Sasuke to the bone that if there is no Naruto in this manga I'll quit a.s.a.p. Some people may use the exact reason, but my point is, all of us have our very own interest.


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## Turrin (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree Naruto to me is w/o a doubt in the Top 5 Shounnen Manga's of all time.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 18, 2011)

Kishimoto has his faults, but for the most part he's a genius. Anyone who doesn't think so is probably butt hurt.


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## Jizznificent (Sep 18, 2011)

agreed. i will be sad when this manga ends, as much as i was when FMA ended (if not more so).


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## Ryan2113 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jizznificent said:


> agreed. i will be sad when this manga ends, as much as i was when FMA ended (if not more so).



 I suppose everything comes to an end.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 18, 2011)

Op, you just won the internet.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Sep 18, 2011)

Agreed.
And of course it is.Billions of people are discussing it in this forum because it has such a huge fandom.Look at the views of the spoiler thread b4 a new chapter is out.It's amazing how many people like this Manga.

I don't know how i will feel if this Manga ends.I think it depends on the way it ends...


*Spoiler*: __ 



...Or continues till i die


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## x_danny_x (Sep 18, 2011)

the first part was the best. i got hooked.  but the second part lacks writing skills.   sorry.  

i dont like to let anything i start to go unfinished.   so i will still stick to it until it ends.  

doesnt mean i am into it as i used too.   

the story telling to me could of been done better and different.  i would not have done this brother complex with Sasuke and Naruto and just ignore the rest of the cast for such a long time.  including Naruto was ignore and his training didnt help him much at one point. 

there was soooooooooooooo much potential for the other characters with stories of their own.   still not outshining Naruto since this is his manga.

i would of taken a totally different direction with the second part.


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## Itαchi (Sep 18, 2011)

imo Naruto is the best shonen manga ever. the figures, the topics, the dramas the fights, its just totally special.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

Itαchi said:


> *imo Naruto is the best shonen manga ever.* the figures, the topics, the dramas the fights, its just totally special.



Lets not take it that far now. 

The Manga that the guy in my avatar is from, i would say is a good bit better then Naruto.(In case you do not know im talking about FMA)


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## VoDe (Sep 18, 2011)

Itαchi said:


> imo Naruto is the best shonen manga ever. the figures, the topics, the dramas the fights, its just totally special.


*[Offtopic]*
*[/Offtopic]*

Naruto these days is pretty meh, could be a lot better thought but could also be a lot worse too.

Naruto as a Manga has lost something what it did have in part 1. And it feels like Kishi really wants to end this manga and move on to next one.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 18, 2011)

Well of course.

If the manga really were the type of trash some posters claim it is, none of us would be reading it. Sure, it drags in places, but Kishimoto is doing a good job, if you ask me.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Sep 18, 2011)

If your view of this manga is truely influenced by the views of others, then you're not really all that capable of independent thought.

However, my view still is that this manga is just awful, and is at its absolute worst right now. The random kage whose skin can tank one of the most destructive attacks thus far is just so damn ridiculous that i have no words, and said attack was already ridiculous by Part 1 standards... The humor is subpar ("Oh hur hur penis armadillo, i get it!") and Naruto himself is constantly fluctuating between being a helpless moron and an overpowered Messiah Sue douchebag, there is no golden middle road to stay on. The secondary characters have become so utterly bland and uninteresting that Kishi is forced to create more new characters... just to throw them away a few chapters later for them to never be heard of again. The absolute worst part of it is that the villains are ineffectual and laughable in their constant failures. I have never read a manga so one-sided in the "good guys'" (a term i detest, but in this case the whole world has joined up under this flag) favour.
But of course i will keep reading it. Why? Probably in hopes that when Madara or Sasuke reappear, they actually cause some damage, but with their pathetic history i can't be too hopeful.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Sep 18, 2011)

Naruto is awesome, ''nuff said.


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## T-Bag (Sep 18, 2011)

I love this manga. Don't ask me why. I just do.


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## ovanz (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm more in the villains side (don't care about naruto or konoha in general anymore) most of the characters i liked are dead lol (akatsuki and danzo are all gone). Orochimaru, the great villain of part 1, was trolled and sealed and psycho gaara become a hippie who is always talking about his messiah naruto.

Since the begining i was more in the orochimaru/kabuto side, I don't care much about the uchihas sasuke/madara side.  And probably for the deep conections and plot, the uchihas will be the last bosses so yeah whatever xd. naruto the manga becomes neutral to me.


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## Coldhands (Sep 18, 2011)

I love Naruto.


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## GunX2 (Sep 18, 2011)

Kishimoto can do no wrong in my eyes.


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## firefangz (Sep 18, 2011)

I do think its good but like all mangas it has its up and down moments and that will ALWAYS differ from reader to reader. If you like it or think its great then good for you. If you don't well thats just your opinion.


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## Kronin (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree with what was said by OP, I couldn't have said it better


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## Saunion (Sep 18, 2011)

This kind of thread is honestly as pointless as these "why is Sakura hated!!!" ones.

Naruto is a poor work of fiction. It's not the worst thing out there, but it's thematically incoherent, disingenuous, melodramatic in the worst sense of the word, poorly paced, averagely drawn, both pretentious and naive, not very creative, not particularly funny and most of all, it's stretched so thin you can see through it. It should have ended 400 chapters ago.


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## Ryan2113 (Sep 18, 2011)

Saunion said:


> This kind of thread is honestly as pointless as these "why is Sakura hated!!!" ones.



And yet you posted on this thread.


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## GunX2 (Sep 18, 2011)

Saunion said:


> This kind of thread is honestly as pointless as these "why is Sakura hated!!!" ones.
> 
> Naruto is a poor work of fiction. It's not the worst thing out there, but it's thematically incoherent, disingenuous, melodramatic in the worst sense of the word, poorly paced, averagely drawn, both pretentious and naive, not very creative, not particularly funny and most of all, it's stretched so thin you can see through it. It should have ended 400 chapters ago.



U mad?


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## Appleofeden (Sep 18, 2011)

Agreed, even when it's bad it's still better than 90 percent of the crap that's out there.


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## Saunion (Sep 18, 2011)

GunX2 said:


> U mad?



I'm... giving my opinion?


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## SaVaGe609 (Sep 18, 2011)

Of course it's a good manga. Otherwise we wouldn't be here 

Most of the complaining is a result of it not living up to past standards. I'm fine with the current manga, and agree with your entire post, with the exception of one case...

Not a fan of Naruto as a character. I personally can't relate to him. He's the savior of the world, and he knows it..I could relate to him more in part I, when he was the underdog. Now he just comes off as arrogant imho. Not saying I _dislike_ him, but I don't love him. If Nagato truly broke the 4th wall and there will be a part 3 in which the rookies get spotlight, I'll be 100% satisfied.


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## BlueDemon (Sep 18, 2011)

Aside from some obvious flaws (which were already pointed out), I also think it?s a good manga, at least concerning the battles! I?m always thrilled when there?s a battle going on, but then again, I just like battles! (DBZ ftw =D)


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 18, 2011)

Saunion said:


> This kind of thread is honestly as pointless as these "why is Sakura hated!!!" ones.
> 
> Naruto is a *poor work of fiction*. It's not the worst thing out there, but it's *thematically incoherent*, *disingenuous*, *melodramatic* in the worst sense of the word, *poorly paced*, *averagely drawn*, both *pretentious* and *naive*, *not* very *creative*, *not* particularly *funny* and most of all, it's *stretched so thin* you can see through it. *It should have ended 400 chapters ago*.



The way you write about it makes it sound as if it _is_ the "worst thing out there."


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## Saunion (Sep 18, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> The way you write about it makes it sound as if it _is_ the "worst thing out there."



No, because it was very, very good for the first... roughly 200 chapters. I was listening to a manga podcast the other day and the guy said that the Zabuza and Haku arc was one of the best arcs he ever read from any shonen. I actually agree. It's just that it never kept that level of quality.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 18, 2011)

Saunion said:


> No, because it was very, very good for the first... roughly 200 chapters. I was listening to a manga podcast the other day and the guy said that the Zabuza and Haku arc was one of the best arcs he ever read from any shonen. I actually agree. It's just that it never kept that level of quality.



Part I only appears this excellent and extraordinary because it's laced with nostalgia. The Land of Waves arc may have been superb writing, but there were points in the manga where the first half seemed like garbage as well.

It's not all people make it out to be. Take, for example, Orochimaru; back in the day, he _was_ well-liked and did have fans, but nothing like it is now. Do you know why? Because people simply have fond memories of what once was. It's not that the level of quality has decreased - people simply miss the simplicity of the "old" Naruto manga. But the audience has grown with Kishimoto; his manga needs to show change, and that's why it's become more complex.


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## Saunion (Sep 18, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Part I only appears this excellent and extraordinary because it's laced with nostalgia. The Land of Waves arc may have been superb writing, but there were points in the manga where the first half seemed like garbage as well.



Of course part 1 had low points, but its low points never reached the abysmal levels of part 2 low points.

I don't buy the nostalgia goggles argument. I think the manga was genuinely better before the timeskip, and probably even before the rescue Sasuke arc. Land of Waves and Chuunin exam still are the pinnacle of the series, and the only parts that could be considered excellent, classic shonen.


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## KingBoo (Sep 18, 2011)

Saunion said:


> I'm... giving my opinion?



the op gave his opinion, and you said it was pointless. safe to say your opinion is pointless as well.

and yes, the manga is good. if i had to rate it out of 10, i would give the show a 9. there are characters i like, characters i like to hate (this is a good thing), cool fights, and a whole bunch of other things that will take too long to list.

but there are a few things i don't like. there are a few characters i just hate like sakura. big waste of panels she is. i like to hate orochimaru because he's this vomiting snake man that's after boys, and i'm wondering what is this guy gonna do next that's so evul. but with sakura she's just horrible. 

everytime i have the misfortune of seeing it in a panel for a nanosecond, my optic nerve shakes and cringes, and the blood vessels in my eyes are about to explode from the pressure caused by my hatred. i normally hate sauske too, but i can understand why he cut his bonds off with one of his certain teammates.


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## Ryan2113 (Sep 18, 2011)

Saunion said:


> Of course part 1 had low points, but its low points never reached the abysmal levels of part 2 low points.
> 
> I don't buy the nostalgia goggles argument. I think the manga was genuinely better before the timeskip, and probably even before the rescue Sasuke arc. Land of Waves and Chuunin exam still are the pinnacle of the series, and the only parts that could be considered excellent, classic shonen.



What is your opinion on the Asuma/Hidan/Kakazu arc?


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## Saunion (Sep 18, 2011)

KingBoo said:


> the op gave his opinion, and you said it was pointless. safe to say your opinion is pointless as well.



I meant that these threads are pointless because they generally degenerate into people posting "haters gonna hate" and other mindless stuff. Sure enough it already happend.



Ryan2113 said:


> What is your opinion on the Asuma/Hidan/Kakazu arc?



I didn't care much for it. I thought Asuma's death felt like a really forced plot device to develop Shikamaru, the whole elemental affinity and kagebushin training felt like an asspull (what the hell was Jiraya doing with Naruto for two years?) I didn't like how cheap Kakuzu and Hidan's defeat made Akatsuki feel, I thought Naruto's FRS unveiling was pretty lame.

It's still better than stuff like the Kage summit though.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Sep 18, 2011)

Saunion said:


> Of course part 1 had low points, but its low points never reached the abysmal levels of part 2 low points.
> 
> I don't buy the nostalgia goggles argument. I think the manga was genuinely better before the timeskip, and probably even before the rescue Sasuke arc. Land of Waves and Chuunin exam still are the pinnacle of the series, and the only parts that could be considered excellent, classic shonen.



The manga had to move on from the Land of Waves and Chunin Arcs. Once again, while that may have been good writing, the manga couldn't remain that way permanently. The story had to be developed, one way or another.

One of the flaws of Part I was that it neglected the setting, which in this context I take to mean everything not concerning Konoha. We didn't know anything about the other Kages, villages, until the beginning of Part II. That's probably what some mean by "poor pacing," and why Kishimoto is currently trying to compensate by reviving legends of the past that aren't from Konoha (Kinkaku and Ginkaku are the best examples).


----------



## Yagura (Sep 18, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> If your view of this manga is truely influenced by the views of others, then you're not really all that capable of independent thought.
> 
> However, my view still is that this manga is just awful, and is at its absolute worst right now. The random kage whose skin can tank one of the most destructive attacks thus far is just so damn ridiculous that i have no words, and said attack was already ridiculous by Part 1 standards... The humor is subpar ("Oh hur hur penis armadillo, i get it!") and Naruto himself is constantly fluctuating between being a helpless moron and an overpowered Messiah Sue douchebag, there is no golden middle road to stay on. The secondary characters have become so utterly bland and uninteresting that Kishi is forced to create more new characters... just to throw them away a few chapters later for them to never be heard of again. The absolute worst part of it is that the villains are ineffectual and laughable in their constant failures. I have never read a manga so one-sided in the "good guys'" (a term i detest, but in this case the whole world has joined up under this flag) favour.
> But of course i will keep reading it. Why? Probably in hopes that when Madara or Sasuke reappear, they actually cause some damage, but with their pathetic history i can't be too hopeful.


This. So much this.


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## SaVaGe609 (Sep 18, 2011)

Hey, whether we love the manga or not, at least we can all take comfort in the fact that it's not Bleach, with omnipotent, 100% static protagonists.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

Naruto is a good manga no doubt, but One Piece is so much better.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

> imo Naruto is the best shonen manga ever. the figures, the topics, the dramas the fights, its just totally special.



It's probably the only one you have ever read too.


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## Susano'o (Sep 18, 2011)

OP, you really made a good point when you talked about how reading them consecutively without fandoms or trolls to discuss it with. Every now and then, I go back to previous chapters and reread them all, or even in the anime I rewatch episodes, and they are so much better because when I think about it, at the time they were released, all I read about after these chapters were bashing threads or wanking threads.

 +reps for good thread


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## PureWIN (Sep 18, 2011)

This manga is definitely 10x better when you read it straight through without pausing each week and over-analyzing each chapter on the forums.

I would imagine if you were to take ANY book to ever exist and read it chapter by chapter each week over ~10 years while posting on forums to analyze it, you wouldn't consider it to be a great piece of work regardless of the actual quality.

It's all about perception.


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## Morgan (Sep 18, 2011)

Naruto is always good when u don't think about it. Bad tasting porridge is good when you don't think about it. Your life's good when you don't think about your empty wallet. There are lots of things that are better without contemplation, but there are some things which are better, the more you think about. I think they call them fantasies. 

 I guess that would make ONE Piece a fantasy. It's that good 

I hope you get my point.


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## Gabe (Sep 18, 2011)

i agree and  i like this manga. it may not be the worst but it has good moments. people will always complain but for some reason continue to read it. for example people are always mad cause the side characters dont get much action but this happens sometimes people who were important in the start. they cant always be on par with the main characters. because they continue to improve and new challengers have to appear. people can like them but have to realizes they can be in the same level or have the same importance as others.



Louis-954 said:


> Naruto is a good manga no doubt, but One Piece is so much better.



i dont think naruto is the best shonen but i also dont think OP is either. i think people overrated. everyone overate mangas but for some reason op is the most. i actually dont think there is a really excellent manga in shonen right now. many are good but not exceptionally.


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## AoshiKun (Sep 18, 2011)

The manga is good but "pretty damn good" no no.
Kishimoto doesn't know how to handle several charaters at the same time and he used to be more consistant in Part I.

I could list a lot of things I don't like in this story but man... that would take my whole day.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> i dont think naruto is the best shonen but i also dont think OP is either. i think people overrated. everyone overate mangas but for some reason op is the most. i actually dont think there is a really excellent manga in shonen right now. many are good but not exceptionally.


Where did I say OP was the best shounen?


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## Seraphiel (Sep 18, 2011)

I seriously have no idea why I am even reading Naruto anymore, the only reason I continued to read in Part 1 was because I thought every arc would be AMAZING like the land of waves. Unfortunately this has not been the case. All I have seen is Kishimot failing harder and harder writing uninteresting characters and making me hate the poor excuse for his main character. There is simply nothing interesting about Naruto as a character, he is bland and generic, does not learn from his mistakes, hell it's so bad that a resurrected mass murdered needed to call him out on being arrogant. Don't even make me start talking about how happy he was to see the guy who leveled his village and killed his sensei, I know he is "above" hate, but his reaction was moronic.

Sakura has basically been useless after the rescue Gaara arc and put of, he introduced a fail character like Sai whom he relegated to fodder, look at Sasuke he finally stopped being emo and bottling things up, what does Kishi do...make him insane. Minato is the biggest fucking Sue/Stu I ever saw in any manga. 

Also him introducing new characters and then writing them off so fast is just a clear sign he can't focus on his main characters so he has to bank on all the fodders to do something.

It's not as bad as Bleach, but Naruto can never compare to the likes of JoJo, FMA, OP, Toriko(which is rapidly rising in fame).

Kishimoto just lost his touch and I would go so far to say he is REALLY bad if we compare him to Oda, who has yet to make a character I hate. Hell the guy makes even crazy deformed corssdressers awesome.


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## Supa Swag (Sep 18, 2011)

Itαchi said:


> imo Naruto is the best shonen manga ever. the figures, the topics, the dramas the fights, its just totally special.



You misspelled Slam Dunk/Great Teacher Onizuka.





PureWIN said:


> This manga is definitely 10x better when you read it straight through without pausing each week and over-analyzing each chapter on the forums.




You can apply this to just about any work of fiction that is released weekly. I don't see why deeply analyzing something should automatically make a series worse. I consider the best works the ones where the quality remains the same regardless on how you read/watch it.




silenceofthelambs said:


> It's not all people make it out to be. Take, for example, Orochimaru; back in the day, he _was_ well-liked and did have fans, but nothing like it is now. Do you know why?



Not really. I do know he became worse when he went from a vile mad scientist with a intriguing personality looking for the truth of the world to a creepy pedo who's nothing more than an Uchiha punching bag and is obsessed with the Sharingan.



> But the audience has grown with Kishimoto; his manga needs to show change, and that's why it's become more *complex.*



No, I wouldn't say it has. It's still pretty simple.

If anything I'd go with convoluted than complex.


Anywho, Naruto's ok. I consider it average as a whole (with last few arcs being below average). I haven't read every single shonen ever, but of the ones I've read (and remember) Naruto probably wouldn't make my top ten.


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## slickcat (Sep 18, 2011)

I seriously hope it ends. And thats being honest. Its easier for you to get the bigger picture if you marathon the manga when it stockpiles as opposed to waiting every week for a chapter while the next chapter can even contradict everything the past chapters built up in an instant. As for me, I m still with this because its a routine for me, an addiction if u will,once it ends, so does my leash on the series.


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## Pseudo (Sep 18, 2011)

FMA>HST.


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## Summers (Sep 18, 2011)

This needs to be said more, criticism of kishi is fair, but he gets outright bashed for everything sometimes and its getting silly. Kishi has made a manga that makes people want to comeback every week and read. Despite misgivings some have about some elements. Congrats to him.

"God this manga sucks"_ continues reading_ "Kishi is so fail" _continues commenting_ "poor writing shit plot" _waits for spoilers to release_"Im going to stop reading" _sees them next week_


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## Supa Swag (Sep 18, 2011)

ThePseudo said:


> FMA>HST.



Yep.

Ending wasn't all that, but it was still solid. It wasn't an ending that brought the entire series down at least.


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## slickcat (Sep 18, 2011)

FMA is my favorite shonen series, dont know about the rest. The way the story even began was so epic, I couldn't imagine someone taking that route(atleast for manga, though I ve read tons of Novels). Meanwhile in Naruto,during a war that needs causalities, everyone is still holding hands and probably will survive till the end of the arc. I dont mind Naruto dying before the end and konohamaru defeating juubi,but this war seems like taking a bunch of ninjas to the Disneyland for a trip and everyone save fodder falling off the Ferris wheel.


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## tgm2x (Sep 18, 2011)

Yeah, it's pretty good, I don't like the main character that much though


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## Kael Hyun (Sep 18, 2011)

Thank you OP its always nice to actually hear more of people praiseing the manga instead of calling it shit or what not. 


Louis-954 said:


> Naruto is a good manga no doubt, but One Piece is so much better.



The styling drives me off to much for me to even call that acceptable plus the characters feel bland as all hell.


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## Lelouch71 (Sep 18, 2011)

I just see the manga as one good comedy. Once you do that nothing disappoints you.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> The styling drives me off to much for me to even call that acceptable plus the characters feel bland as all hell.


You strike me as someone who hasn't read more than 4 chapters or watched more than 2 episodes. There is a reason it outsells the entire top 10 list all by itself.


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## T-Bag (Sep 18, 2011)

The character designs in One piece really make you not want to watch it. Ugly ass motherfuckers.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> The character designs in One piece really make you not want to watch it. Ugly ass motherfuckers.


Your loss. xD


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## ovanz (Sep 18, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> I seriously have no idea why I am even reading Naruto anymore, the only reason I continued to read in Part 1 was because I thought every arc would be AMAZING like the land of waves. Unfortunately this has not been the case. All I have seen is Kishimot failing harder and harder writing uninteresting characters and making me hate the poor excuse for his main character. There is simply nothing interesting about Naruto as a character, he is bland and generic, does not learn from his mistakes, hell it's so bad that a resurrected mass murdered needed to call him out on being arrogant. Don't even make me start talking about how happy he was to see the guy who leveled his village and killed his sensei, I know he is "above" hate, but his reaction was moronic.
> 
> Sakura has basically been useless after the rescue Gaara arc and put of, he introduced a fail character like Sai whom he relegated to fodder, look at Sasuke he finally stopped being emo and bottling things up, what does Kishi do...make him insane. Minato is the biggest fucking Sue/Stu I ever saw in any manga.
> 
> ...



i agree, except with the One Piece part.

And yeah FMA was really a diferent shonen, didn't have powerlevels or so much techniques and secondary character were handled good. I didn't knew JoJo was shonen lol, but its also good.

Of course berserk and other seinen mangas are way better than naruto but part 1 was good, part 2 change so much things like naruto not being anymore the underdog, he being the son of minato and the prophehy, just the prophecy (like ripping of star wars, matrix and many more)


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## Seraphiel (Sep 18, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> The character designs in One piece really make you not want to watch it. Ugly ass motherfuckers.



I wouldn't agree, the war spreads are gorgeous, above Kishi. Who has constantly since the beginning of the world war arc had shitty art.



ovanz said:


> i agree, except with the One Piece part.
> 
> And yeah FMA was really a diferent shonen, didn't have powerlevels or so much techniques and secondary character were handled good. I didn't knew JoJo was shonen lol, but its also good.
> 
> Of course berserk and other seinen mangas are way better than naruto but part 1 was good, part 2 change so much things like naruto not being anymore the underdog, he being the son of minato and the prophehy, just the prophecy (like ripping of star wars, matrix and many more)



Steel Ball Run was changed to Seinen, but until then all those epic mutilations where in a Shonen 

Also I like OP more than FMA but then again it's preference  Also I hope you read Vagabond, Berserk is amazing, but Vagabond blows every other manga away for me 

And yep child of prophecy and so on is really :/


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## navy (Sep 18, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> I wouldn't agree, the war spreads are gorgeous, above Kishi. Who has constantly since the beginning of the world war arc had shitty art.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Luffy's reaction to Ace's death was horribly drawn, made me laugh.


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## T-Bag (Sep 18, 2011)

ovanz said:


> And yeah FMA was really a diferent shonen, didn't have powerlevels or so much techniques and secondary character were handled good. I didn't knew JoJo was shonen lol, but its also good.



didn't FMA have a villain called Father or something like that? That guy was beyond overpowered. His powerlevel was beyond everyone else in the manga.



Seraphiel said:


> I wouldn't agree, the war spreads are gorgeous, above Kishi. Who has constantly since the beginning of the world war arc had shitty art.



I guess it's because I personally don't find any character in that show appealing or "cool".


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## ajinko (Sep 18, 2011)

for me it's op then naruto. op is yet to dissapoint me and i dont think it will. naruto dissapoints me on many occasions. i just sometimes skim through the chapters without even bother to reading it. for examples gaara's speech, narutos messiah parts, garras and his father. shit like that dissapoints me. 

i gave up on bleach after the whole aizen troll fiasco finished.  i also gave up on fail tail after all the random friendship powerup bullshit.


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## Brickhunt (Sep 18, 2011)

I enjoy both mangas. Lately, Naruto's Fourth Ninja War has been much more enjoyable than One Piece's Fishman Island just like enjoyed One Piece's Whitebeard war better than Naruto's Kage Summit.

That said, as someone who has been reading One Piece for almost ten years and started Naruto 3 years ago (Pain arc), it has been a really good reading and I don't think the fanbase is so bad compared with One Piece's elitism, but Bleach has by far the best fandom


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> I guess it's because I personally don't find any character in that show appealing or "cool".


Of course you don't, you haven't watched it so how could you lol.


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## T-Bag (Sep 18, 2011)

Louis-954 said:


> Of course you don't, you haven't watched it so how could you lol.



I've seen the character cast. All ugly. In fact I just have to look at your sig.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> *I've seen the character cast.* All ugly.


No, you haven't. There are more characters than there are in Naruto.


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## T-Bag (Sep 18, 2011)

*look at your sig*

No thx


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## Milliardo (Sep 18, 2011)

op once you said naruto was a well written character i couldn't take you seriously.. i get its your opinion about naruto the character and manga and i'm sure there some die hard naruto fans who will always agree as this is a naruto fan site but that is not so for everybody..  
 many people read it to see it end or for a certain character that is all.


Saunion said:


> This kind of thread is honestly as pointless as these "why is Sakura hated!!!" ones.
> 
> Naruto is a poor work of fiction. It's not the worst thing out there, but it's thematically incoherent, disingenuous, melodramatic in the worst sense of the word, poorly paced, averagely drawn, both pretentious and naive, not very creative, not particularly funny and most of all, it's stretched so thin you can see through it. It should have ended 400 chapters ago.



i agree with what you are saying naruto is pretty average..   its been ass dragging for a while now.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 18, 2011)

Naruto is the best shonen manga out there. And I read all 3 HST ( and beyond ).


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 18, 2011)

I preferred Naruto in Part 1 in if I'm honest. I'd like for the rookies, jonin and Tsunade to get a more central role like they had in Part I _[which is really what got me glued in the first place]_. My favourite character in Part I was Hiruzen, who was killed off. In Part II Jiraiya was one of my favourites, he too was killed off. Orochimaru, another favourite was removed from the plot soon after. And characters who I began to become interested in were either killed off or practically ignored from the storyline eg. Konan, Kurenai or Iruka. Currently Tsunade, Shizune and Sakura are my favourite characters. However I don't see much room for any significant further development the way things are going. 

As such, my interest in the manga has dropped. That said, I still think it's a great manga.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> *look at your sig*
> 
> No thx


How ignorant. xD


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## Morgan (Sep 18, 2011)

Louis-954 said:


> Where did I say OP was the best shounen?




 Are you saying it's not?


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> Are you saying it's not?


When did I say it wasn't?  I really enjoy FMA, Torikio(lol), and HxH as well.


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## αce (Sep 18, 2011)

> I agree Naruto to me is w/o a doubt in the Top 5 Shounnen Manga's of all time.



wha..

I guess people have different opinions


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## bullsh3t (Sep 18, 2011)

Pretty good? ITS NUMBER 1!!!!


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> Pretty good? ITS NUMBER 2!!!!


Fixed that for ya.



> *‎1. Eiichiro Oda (One Piece) - 54 856 000*
> 
> *2.* *Masashi Kishimoto (Naruto) - 11 035 000 *
> 
> ...


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## αce (Sep 18, 2011)

You just opened a can of shit.
It doesn't take sales to realize One Piece is better. As well as several other manga's. But I stopped arguing this point a while ago. Just read what you will.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

One Piece is a manga about pirates, so expecting bishie looking ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) for a cast is ridiculous. Also JJBA is fucking raw. Manly motherfuckers wrecking shit up in style.


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## Ukoku (Sep 18, 2011)

I wish I could say I'm surprised about how this thread turned out, but...


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## hellohi (Sep 18, 2011)

People exaggerate when they say the story is terrible and they come here each and every week to discuss it. 
Some things could have been written a bit better but like I said, people exaggerate


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## posternojutsu (Sep 18, 2011)

I have no idea why people love the Land of Waves arc so much. I still think Naruto is great overall but i can see where people come from when they say some of it is just...meh. The prophecy thing is really my biggest issue with Naruto and as others said we could have seen more of the other villages before part 2. Team 7 heading out to scout Kumo or Iwa with Kakashi could have been great and could have been easily used as another factor for Sasuke leaving the Leaf.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> You just opened a can of shit.


As such was my intentions.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

Well it was only a matter of time before One piece was brought up, i like one piece more then naruto to, but what the hell is the point of bringing One piece Up. -_-

This was suppose to be a Naruto appreciation thread, not a best of the big three thread.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> Well it was only a matter of time before One piece was brought up, i like one piece more then naruto to, but what the hell is the point of bringing One piece Up. -_-


I wasn't the first to bring it up.


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## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

Greatest thread ever. Kishi takes alot of abuse around here. His writing skills are thrashed by those who dont even understand a writers basic tools. Kishi is constantly being compared to less skilled and accomplished writers... It's a tragedy that all these curmudgeons would verbally thrash what undoubtedly will go down as the greatest manga to date when all is said and done.. BTW FMA.... No... The ending was a literary abortion.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

Louis-954 said:


> I wasn't the first to bring it up.



When did i say you did. But now that one piece has been brought up i might as well go with it.

This is how it started for me many years ago(About 7).

Naruto>Cowboy Bebop(He i was a kid so naruto was better at the time)>Gundam(All of them)

Two years later.

Naruto>Bleach>FMA(Full Metal Alchemist was the shit).

1 year later. 

Naruto>FMA>Bleach>Onepiece(Bleach started to get lamer, and i just started one piece).

1 year later.

Onepiece>Naruto>FMA>>>Bleach.

Now.

One piece>>FMA>Naruto. (Bleach is no longer worthy of being in the same sentence of the other three manga i mentioned, its that bad now.


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## MissingShinobi (Sep 18, 2011)

I have my gripes about it, but it is indeed pretty damn good. I just hate the rushed vibe it has been carrying. Actually it seems like all of the parts I was anxious for got handled swiftly, and the things that I really didn't wanna read about stretched on for several chapters. My own personal gripe.

Also, other than the character's battle growth or them showcasing their abilities there hasn't been enough noteworthy build up story wise to hold my interest. If there ever is, it's usually handled by next chapter, or the chapter after. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I don't enjoy the manga at all, I do.. the battles still manage to interest me. it's just that the majority of what I find myself reading for is the fights, occasionally the lulz, and the few remaining mysteries to be solved like the coffin issue and how Sasuke will be redeemed.

I'm with the few that loved Wave Arc, as the story was still very well written at that point. I enjoy action and all but I also like a well written story to balance it out as well. Chasing Sasuke and battle after battle = / = good story telling IMO. To throw in some positive to balance the negative... I enjoyed the story again with Naruto's parents being revealed and introduced to him, along with all of the Kyuubi flashback.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> When did i say you did. But now that one piece has been brought up i might as well go with it.


You didn't, my apologies.



> One piece>>FMA>Naruto. (Bleach is no longer worthy of being in the same sentence of the other three manga i mentioned, its that bad now.


Same, I was a hardcore pro-Naruto anti-OP fan until 2006. Then I opened my eyes.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

Fatback said:


> Greatest thread ever. Kishi takes alot of abuse around here. His writing skills are thrashed by those who dont even understand a writers basic tools. Kishi is constantly being compared to less skilled and accomplished writers... It's a tragedy that all these curmudgeons would verbally thrash what undoubtedly will go down as the greatest manga to date when all is said and done.. *BTW FMA.... No... The ending was a literary abortion*.



LoL what?

The ending of any story is often the hardest part, and i think it was pretty good.

How was it a literary abortion.



Louis-954 said:


> You didn't, my apologies.
> 
> Same, I was a hardcore pro-Naruto anti-OP fan until 2006. Then I opened my eyes.



Well i was never Anti-Op. 

When the anime was showing on cartoon-network along with naruto, i enjoyed it quite a bit. When it was cancelled i was sad, so i watched the Japanese sub title episodes online, and after that i started reading Op online. 

Basically Naruto slowly got worse, Bleach got bad really bad, and One piece got better and better. Which is why Op is my current favorite manga. 

Bleach is not even in my top ten anymore.


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## Dolohov27 (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree with everything OP said.


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## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

One piece??? People consider poorly drawn pirates entertainment? This is a joke. Or it better be. Someone explain this before I rip out my hair and eat it.


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## T-Bag (Sep 18, 2011)

Louis-954 said:


> How ignorant. xD



how are you ignorant if you find characters that look like used toilet paper and trash? lol


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> how are you ignorant if you find characters that look like used toilet paper and trash?



Everyone has their own tastes, but thats taking it a little to far. 

At the start of one-piece yeah the characters look pretty weird, but oda's art has improved a lot. 

Take this panel i think its one of Oda's best, does this look like garbage to you.

*Spoiler*: __ 











Fatback said:


> One piece??? People consider poorly drawn pirates entertainment? This is a joke. Or it better be. Someone explain this before I rip out my hair and eat it.



How are poorly drawn ninja's who 99 percent of time do not even dress or act like Ninja's any better.

Lets be real here. Kisame is like the only real ninja in naruto, everyone else act like a bunch of losers with child-hood problems.


----------



## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

The ending of FMA was garbage. Alls well that ends well and a final villain who becomes a god and fails to do ANYTHING except wait around to be defeated


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## Louis-954 (Sep 18, 2011)

> One piece??? People consider poorly drawn pirates entertainment? This is a joke. Or it better be. Someone explain this before I rip out my hair and eat it.


Which means you haven't seen past episode one, if even that.



> how are you ignorant if you find characters that look like used toilet paper and trash? lol


Take that up with the dictionary, not me.


> ig?no?rance/ˈignərəns/
> Noun:* Lack of knowledge or information*: "he acted in ignorance of basic procedures".


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## hellohi (Sep 18, 2011)

posternojutsu said:


> I have no idea why people love the Land of Waves arc so much.



Because that Arc was amazing and was the first introduced into the Manga/Anime and the emotion is amazing, it's not just BAM BAM TESTOSTERONE BAM.

At least, that's my take of it. Plus Haku and the mask were cool and it felt "ninja-ey" with the Hunter-nin aspect, compared to the Nuking abilities of "ninja" in the current plot.

Don't get me wrong, I love the current plot, even if most people aren't really "ninja", but there is also something classic about the Land of Waves arc.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

Fatback said:


> The ending of FMA was garbage. Alls well that ends well and a final villain who becomes a god and fails to do ANYTHING except wait around to be defeated



 You obviously did not read the last 5 chapters of the manga or forgot what happened, i suggest you go re-read them.


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## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

Louis-954 said:


> Which means you haven't seen past episode one, if even that.
> 
> 
> Take that up with the dictionary, not me.



One piece?? Seriously?? Go ahead and describe to me the complexities of the plot. Tell me what grandure I'm missing. Go ahead I'll listen.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

> One piece??? People consider poorly drawn pirates entertainment?



No, people consider a well told tale with kick ass action, character development and massive world building entertainment. If you want to talk art I can link some incredible land scapes from One Piece that are far more creative, and better looking than the genetic shit Kishi puts out.

As for the charaters themselves, in terms of art, I already explained why Oda chose that particular style. 

If art is your only criteria when choosing what to read manga wise, you will miss out on a fuck ton of amazing series.


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## αce (Sep 18, 2011)

This thread is going great places


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## SaVaGe609 (Sep 18, 2011)

FMA was great. If it could hold my attention while coming out monthly, then it's doing something right.

Naruto is great. Haven't been in love with it for awhile, probably not since part I. I was genuinely excited by the Kage Summit.

Not sure why I still read Bleach (cause it's free ). I find the characters atrocious, especially Ichigo. He doesn't develop and his powerups are WAY too vast. With all the Hadous and Ceros flying around I can barely tell what's happening. I was actually quite interested in the latest arc (new characters, desperate situations, ect), but it just turned back to the usual crapiness.

Soul Eater's alright but it's NOT good enough to only come out monthly. Half the time nothing's happening.

Neon Genesis Evangelion is amazing, but it's on hold


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## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> You obviously did not read the last 5 chapters of the manga or forgot what happened, i suggest you go re-read them.



Oh no, I read every last word my friend. I notice you didn't refute my claims with manga details.. instead you use the gradeschool tactic of deflection... Your gonna have to do better than that.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

> Oh no, *I read every last word my friend*.



Yeah, that is not at all BS.


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## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

Vermilion Kn said:


> No, people consider a well told tale with kick ass action, character development and massive world building entertainment. If you want to talk art I can link some incredible land scapes from One Piece that are far more creative, and better looking than the genetic shit Kishi puts out.
> 
> As for the charaters themselves, in terms of art, I already explained why Oda chose that particular style.
> 
> If art is your only criteria when choosing what to read manga wise, you will miss out on a fuck ton of amazing series.



Pirates... Thats all I have to say... Geez this thread got awfully dillusional.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

Fatback said:


> One piece?? Seriously?? Go ahead and describe to me the complexities of the plot. Tell me what grandure I'm missing. Go ahead I'll listen.



1. Characters, i do not like all of them but theirs so many different characters with different personality's. You are bound to find a character you love. 

2. Universe, what can i say its huge. Each island is like its own little world, and their not limited to the ground. As im sure you know the current arc is Under-water, and their was a Arc in the sky.

3. Action. The action is awesome, just go on You-tube and watch some random fights to see for yourself. 

4. Plot, the plot is also huge. Its not all about luffy and him wanting to be the Pirate king, his whole crew has a dream. Which in some way deals with major people and events in the one piece world. 

5. Plot No jutsu, like any manga their is plot involved of course in the way fights turn out and events you know what i mean, but unlike naruto and bleach. The Plot no jutsu in One piece is nothing compared to theirs. 

6. Oda does not forget, you might think he does but he never does. Old characters are not forgotten and some still have a part to play in the story. 

7. Side-charters actually have fuckin relevance, enough said.

I think you get the point.




Fatback said:


> *Pirates... Thats all I have to say*... Geez this thread got awfully dillusional.



You do know People in America, maybe even more so in other countries love Pirates.



Fatback said:


> Oh no, I read every last word my friend. I notice you didn't refute my claims with manga details.. instead you use the gradeschool tactic of deflection... Your gonna have to do better than that.



Like i said you did not read the last 5 chapters of the manga. So after you go read it i will be happen to explain certain things to you if you do not understand them.

But if you want here is a panel of Father attacking, he does not just stand their and wait to be defeated like you said in your original post.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

Vermilion Kn said:


> Yeah, that is not at all BS.



Who are you again? Do you hide in my room? I'm starting to suspect you believe you do.


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## T-Bag (Sep 18, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Everyone has their own tastes, but thats taking it a little to far.
> 
> At the start of one-piece yeah the characters look pretty weird, but oda's art has improved a lot.
> 
> ...



I just don't find his style appealing, like can't he draw characters that look a little more normal? Look at that same page you posted and tell me what you think of the upper left panel. The fat kids. Like wtf is that?

It just destroys it for me.




Louis-954 said:


> Take that up with the dictionary, not me.



I have seen basically every character in that show, and I can't say that I find any character that just looks boss. By boss I mean characters like Sephiroth, itachi, batusai etc. There might be one, maybe but what his name...? mihawk i think. Dude with the hat. But majority of the characters have a mouth the size of a fucking cave.

I'm not saying Oda can't draw, it's just his preferred style just doesn't attract me at all.


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## Fatback (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm gonna spend next week reading every bit of one piece.. Then I'm gonna get ahold of you Rumblepak prince... Then I'm gonna beer bong tequilla till I forget all the crappy pirate nonsense.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

> Pirates... Thats all I have to say



Oh look at that, you have no argument. Not surprising, specially since you think that Naruto will go down as the best manga to date when all is said and done. 



> Who are you again? Do you hide in my room? I'm starting to suspect you believe you do.



Oh boy, what's next ? Godwin's Law ?


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## Vash (Sep 18, 2011)

Fatback said:


> I'm gonna spend next week reading every bit of one piece.. Then I'm gonna get ahold of you Rumblepak prince... Then I'm gonna beer bong tequilla till I forget all the crappy pirate nonsense.



        .


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> *I just don't find his style appealing, like can't he draw characters that look a little more normal?* Look at that same page you posted and tell me what you think of the upper left panel. The fat kids. Like wtf is that?
> 
> It just destroys it for me.
> 
> ...



Well its a manga, he does not have to draw them normal.

What is normal about this.



But yes i understand what your saying, but for me art is only one aspect of a manga. I have no particular love for the art of Full-metal alchemist, but its one of my favorite mangas to date. For me Art is not going to stop me from reading a manga, unless its just down right shit.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Sep 18, 2011)

I do agree with you to an extent OP, the manga _has_ gotten pretty damn good ever since the end of the Kage Summit Arc. However, before and during that arc......not so much (specifically the very early part of part 2). 

The reason for the improvement is very simple, Kishi FINALLY stopped making Naruto look and sound like an obsessive stalker every 2-3 chapters. As a result, the manga has become SO much more enjoyable and fun to read again. More importantly, the main character continues to show growth physically and emotionally and that can only be a good thing.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

> You are right Hershey squirt I dont know anything about one piece other than the art style looks like something a crack addicted monkey drew.



Criticizing something you know nothing about, basically you just jump on any bandwagon don't you ?



> Naruto is the most popular manga/anime on a worldwide level... Try and say it isnt and wont be when it ends... If you do you will just make me look smarter



One Piece is the best selling manga of all time. Naruto does better in terms of popularity, thanks to the west's tendecy of loving genetic shit. But it really doesn't bother me, specially since to the majority of the people who love it, Naruto is their first manga and they haven't really read much of anything else. I can list several manga that are far superior to Naruto in everyway, yet they are not as popular.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 18, 2011)

Also Sales>Popularity. 

Naruto is not Popular enough to sale half as much as One piece does.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

> Also Sales>Popularity.



Perfect example right here.
this


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## Renyou (Sep 18, 2011)

Honestly, I lost whatever little faith I had left in this manga as soon as this Dawn of the Dead Ninjas shit happened (how Kishimoto even managed to sink this low is beyond me).

Now I just read it to see how it ends. The minute I finish the last chapter, I probably won't think about this series ever again. I guess forgettable would be a nice word for this manga so far (I can't say overall because it's not over yet).


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## ovanz (Sep 18, 2011)

I read some mangas that comes every week (naruto/bleach/fairy tail) just to see how they end xd i'm just neutral, don't hate nor love any of them, I stopped reading one piece after the king neptune/sirens/whatever fish arc, i might re-read again, but i'm reading Toriko right now.



Seraphiel said:


> Also I like OP more than FMA but then again it's preference  Also I hope you read Vagabond, Berserk is amazing, but Vagabond blows every other manga away for me
> 
> And yep child of prophecy and so on is really :/



Yea i used to read vagabond, don't remember where i left, after musashi was kinda crippled i think, i might pick up later.



T-Bag said:


> didn't FMA have a villain called Father or something like that? That guy was beyond overpowered. His powerlevel was beyond everyone else in the manga.



I was refering about the main characters or most enemies, at least father was the final villain, the eldric brothers y cia, were smart but there was never this huge power level that make big diference between the characters. The big 3 (dunno if bleach is still considered big 3 lol for the sales dropping) but naruto (everyone is kage level or rikudo/uchicha ms/ems) one piece (logias or hakis/king hakis) bleach (captain level or aizen/ichigo power-ups)


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## Judecious (Sep 18, 2011)

It's good only when it has Naruto.  Panels without him makes the manga shit.


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## Olivia (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree, this is a great manga (imo), and it's the one that I've enjoyed the most out of any that I have read. (Yes I've read One Piece, Bleach, FMA, etc)

I personally have liked part two better than part one, but maybe that's because it got a bit darker or something. Also I loved all the Akatsuki, so that may be another factor into me loving part two more.


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## HawkMan (Sep 18, 2011)

He just needs to wrap it up, for all the fans who no longer give a darn.


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## Summers (Sep 18, 2011)

Many who bash the manga, who say they stopped reading it, still read it, whatever the reason, they continue reading.


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## Vermilion Kn (Sep 18, 2011)

> Many who bash the manga, who say they stopped reading it, still read it, whatever the reason, they continue reading.



I've followed it for years, and liked it before Kishi turned it into a story about 2 gay teens in an abusive relationship, and now I read it out of habit just to see how it will end. It's like that for many people who still read it despite the drop in quality.


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## Morgan (Sep 18, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> I just don't find his style appealing, like can't he draw characters that look a little more normal? Look at that same page you posted and tell me what you think of the upper left panel. The fat kids. Like wtf is that?
> 
> It just destroys it for me.
> 
> ...



I love One Piece art. It's one of the most appealing things in the manga for me. U know how every character looks the same  (esp. in Bleach. Shave Ichigo, you get Ikaku), u don't have that in One Piece. The characters are ugly, true, and makes me laugh, (Foxxy). Normal doesn't mentally stimulate. I've seen it all before.

Now these so called 'boss' characters, like Itachi, Sasuke, Shikamaru, Kakashi, Neji, the list goes on, are annoying. You find them in every manga. When I first started watching/reading OP, I thought the boss character would be Sanji, the one in my sig. Yet that wasn't really the case.  One Piece's 'boss' characters aren't the stereotypical type.  One Piece is different in everything and that hooked me. I mean you read Naruto, you've read them all.


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## On and On (Sep 18, 2011)

No it isn't  It's just entertaining.

Something doesn't have to be good to be entertaining. i.e. Nicki Minaj's pop career


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## sheshyo (Sep 18, 2011)

Fay said:


> *End words*
> Favorite characters, favorite pairings...They are part of the manga, but  there are many more components in there as well. Everything as a whole  makes it into what it is, so try not to be blinded by your fantasy  expectations and read the manga as it is, I think you'll definitely  enjoy it more.
> So what if your favorite character won't be the strongest ever or you  favorite pairing won't get it's ever after? It's fiction, made for  entertainment and most definitely not the end of the world .


 
 There are of course those who predominantly judge or "criticize" the  manga based on their own biased expectations or direction of the  plot/characters; and such line of thinking is certainly irrational.  However, I think most of the recent criticisms about the manga is quite  legitimate and well substantiated. 

Most notably, I'd say Kishimoto has huge issue with pacing, and lack of  meaningful conflict-resolutions really compounds the problem. 

Oddly enough, Cartman's criticism on Family guy captures my position quite well: "I  am NOTHING like Family Guy! When I make jokes, they are  inherent to a story! Deep, situational and emotional jokes based on what  is relevant and has a POINT! Not just one interchangeable joke after  another!" 

In Kishimoto's case, he has one interchangeable fight after another. And  while the fights in itself can be very entertaining, they often seem  irrelevant to the plot/story and lack any meaningful point. This is  specifically true for lot of these Edo battles.


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## Zaeed (Sep 18, 2011)

I follow it week to week. However I'm not really enthralled with a lot of things going on lately. To me the quality has gone down since the summit. But I'm sure once the story gets a bit further on to the ending it should recover a bit. I just don't like Naruto going between idiot needing to be saved, to powerful saviour all of a sudden. I also don't like the whole dead guys from the past coming back. The manga is good though for the most part to me personally about a 7.5-8/10.


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## Cjones (Sep 18, 2011)

It's alright. Seen better days though.



VoDe said:


> *[Offtopic]*
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



This was hilarious until the Ichigo crying part.

That was so far off that...


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## Supa Swag (Sep 19, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> I just don't find his style appealing, like can't he draw characters that look a little more normal?



Yeah, he can. He drew the pic in my avatar. Akainu is pretty normal too (face wise, anyway).

Thing about OP is that practically everything about is over the top. The supernatural powers, the world and how its environment works, the history, the emotions of characters, the humor, etc. To further display how over the top it is he draws the characters like he does, with exaggerated proportions, facial expressions, giant humans, walking, talking animals, clothing, etc. It's very effective in setting the style of the series. One drawback though is that the style usually weakens emotional moments.


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## Zarzamora-no-kimi (Sep 19, 2011)

The problem a lot of people have is that it's not just about getting influenced by others' opinions, but by how they even perceive the manga. You start to see it the the way other people see it. And you could have your own opinions, but the simple perception of them starts from the way others perceive it.

Some people here just take it too seriously to go to such lengths explaining why it sucks.

It's a manga for God's Sake, the moment you take it seriously enough to see the flaws the way some of you do, we cannot expect for you to take it as it is.

"We judge things not how they are, but how we are"

People even get influenced by previous opinions they themselves  had: people usually have problems admitting "Ok, so this might be different", and they get to a point where they look for every possible scenario where their opinions about something fits with the new development.

It comes again with the comparison of new fans and old fans. Just ask people that know about Naruto way before Part II started and see how they perceive the manga.

Most of the fans I've seen here arrived to the fandom 2006 and got an NF account 2007, even as far as 2008/2009. And they read part I in bulk. They weren't influenced by others' opinions, that's way Part I was holy for many, but for some of us that learned about part I even farther back, when it was almost impossible to get manga chapters in your native language, the only thing that changed was the focus on it.

Part I was about development, it has a homey focus. Part II is about development and closure, and the focus on it is broader. There is just NO time for personal and individual fan service we all want. People is already complaining about the story dragging out. Imagine if Kishi focused on all the characters because we just had the gal to say "I wanna see my favorite characters".

The Box said something similar. She was also absent for a long time and when she read Part II in bulk she felt it was rushed.

I don't think people can come here saying it sucks because it really sucks when they come often here to discuss the manga with other fans. It's not about not thinking and going with the crowd. It's just human nature. Just because you happen to agree with someone doesn't mean you don't think independently. 

Just as it is not disagreeing just because you don't want to think like everybody else  That's just dumb.

EDIT: See how when talking about Naruto the manga, the comparison between other mangas arise? So coupled with others' perceptions, others' opinions we have now other mangas.

Of all of them I read just Naruto, so I judge it by itself, not by others.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 19, 2011)

People love to bash Naruto because it makes them look like one of the "big kids", but in reality, Naruto's one of the best shounen manga out there. Sure it has had its low points, but I think Kishimoto has done a good job with it overall so far.

Especially when you compare it with tripe like Bleach, KHR, and Psyren...and DGM, which isn't bad, but nowhere near Naruto's level... I would easily place Naruto in the same league as Dragonball or Yu Yu Hakushou. In some ways, I'd say it even surpasses both.

EDIT: However, yes, there are better shounen series than Naruto out there. For anyone who's interested, I'd strongly recommend Rurouni Kenshin and Fullmetal Alchemist.


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## Akimichi Juro (Sep 19, 2011)

Considering Naruto is the most bought manga in America, it's bound to attract haters.  People who think it's cool to hate popular series, people who are jealous their series aren't as popular, stuff like that.  As for me, I enjoy it and think it's nice, and does some things that are pretty unique compared to other shounen.  For example, Sasuke, one of the heroes going pretty evil.  Sure, it's common for the bad guy to turn good like Vegeta and Nico Robin, but it's rarer to see an established main good guy go bad, for like, the majority of the series.  Especially having them kill former friends/attack former friends/other irredeemable stuff.  People also bash Sasuke, but he does rank really high in the character popularity polls, sometimes number 1 last I checked, so obviously the majority likes him.  In short, just ignore the haters, they're a pretty vocal minority.


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## Louis-954 (Sep 19, 2011)

> *I just don't find his style appealing, like can't he draw characters that look a little more normal?*


I didn't know Naruto, Zetsu, Kisame, Orochimaru, Nagato(Emaciated), The Six Paths of Pain, CS2 Sasuke, CS2 Sound 5, CS Jugo, Danzo, Kabuto, Sage Jiraiya, Onoki, and a host of other characters i'm probably forgetting look "normal".


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## CrazyAries (Sep 19, 2011)

The only time that I had a really long break form Naruto was last year.  I had not read the manga in five months, but when I did, I read the chapters from the end of the Kage Summit Arc to Kushina's flashbacks.  To be quite honest, I actually enjoyed those chapters, so yes, that is one case in which a break can be a mini payoff.  Then I came back to NF to see the latter arc be picked apart. 

Anyway, I am still reading Naruto because I do want to know how the story is resolved and there are chapters that I really enjoy every now and then.  While this manga has its flaws, most of the fun comes from discussing it.


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## Supa Swag (Sep 19, 2011)

Akimichi Juro said:


> As for me, I enjoy it and think it's nice, and does some things that are pretty unique compared to other shounen.  For example, Sasuke, one of the heroes going pretty evil.



It'll be unique if he actually stays an antagonist for the remainder of the story rather than get converted by Naruto for some reason (which will happen).


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

Akimichi Juro said:


> Considering Naruto is the most bought manga in America, it's bound to attract haters.  People who think it's cool to hate popular series, people who are jealous their series aren't as popular, stuff like that.  As for me, I enjoy it and think it's nice, and does some things that are pretty unique compared to other shounen.  For example, Sasuke, one of the heroes going pretty evil.  Sure, it's common for the bad guy to turn good like Vegeta and Nico Robin, but it's rarer to see an established main good guy go bad, for like, the majority of the series.  Especially having them kill former friends/attack former friends/other irredeemable stuff.  People also bash Sasuke, but he does rank really high in the character popularity polls, sometimes number 1 last I checked, so obviously the majority likes him.  In short, just ignore the haters, they're a pretty vocal minority.



"I know they Hate,but that's how you know your doing great!"
-quote from some busta rhymes song


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## Saunion (Sep 19, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> I just don't find his style appealing, like can't he draw characters that look a little more normal? Look at that same page you posted and tell me what you think of the upper left panel. The fat kids. Like wtf is that?
> 
> It just destroys it for me.



Oda actually can draw characters who look "normal". That's actually his strength compared to other shonen artists: the variety. Sure, he has plenty of goofy looking, ugly characters. He also has very realistic ones, like the admirals (who're directly based on famous japanese actors), and yes, he has "normal" characters. Zoro. Shanks. Smoker. Crocodile. Mihawk. Rob Lucci. Ace. Trafalgar Law. So there's potentially something for everyone.

The problem you and other people have is that you're too used to generic japanese artstyle, where everyone looks "boss", IE everyone looks pretty and perfect and aloof. Like Sephiroth and Itachi. It's cool if that's your definition of awesome character design, but it's also pretty sad that you're missing on a huge amount of quality entertainment for pretty shallow reasons.


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## kingcools (Sep 19, 2011)

Fay said:


> *Emotions & pairings*
> Another thing this manga exceeds in is getting emotion out of the reader. The chapters with Konan's end, the chapters with Naruto & his parents past, with Gaara's mother no doubt brought a tear or two to my eyes.
> And then I understood why exactly Kishimoto bothers with pairings, unlike many other shounen writers. Falling in love, rejection, heartbreak...emotions everyone has to deal with and quite fitting in a manga such as this.



What the...? Do you really think Kishi cares for pairings for real? Look what he did to Hinata LOL "Naruto-kun, I love you", 200 chapters later nobody, not even hinata, cares. He will handle that lack of caring by giving us a flashback later on. Kishi is very bad when it comes to romance(nowadays at least).


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## Yasaka Magatama (Sep 19, 2011)

I still love this manga. However, I think it differs from readers to readers. Many many more prefer other mangas and think Naruto is not a good manga, I believe not everyone who stopped reading are because they are influenced by what other people thinks. There are people who are there just to see the things they wanted to see, they are there because they hope that the manga will go the way they wanted it to. So apparently a lot of them will bash or stop reading when the manga didnt turn out to be what they hoped it to be. I think people do have their own preference, not everyone finds Naruto enjoyable. But I agree with OP that all small parts of this story will later completes one story. I do think that there's a point/meaning there that Kishi wants to tell and we will all find out by the end of the series.


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## Saunion (Sep 19, 2011)

As for other shonen compared to Naruto: Dragonball and Fist of the North Star are infinitely more memorable and influential, not to mention have largely superior fight scenes and legendary villains (no Frieza or Raoh in Naruto). It's likely no one will remember Naruto 20 years from now unlike these two manga. Full Metal Alchemist, Hunter X Hunter and Shingeki no Kyojin are far more mature and better in terms of  characterization. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is far superior in its originality, creativity and individuality. One Piece and Toriko have top notch world building and focus on adventure and exploration. 

I honestly can't think of something Naruto does that hasn't been done before and in a better way. A lot of the scenes of the manga immediately remind me of similar events in manga like Slam Dunk, Dai no Daibouken, Yu Yu Hakusho, Dragonball or Hunter X Hunter. I struggle to think of something really unique and remarkable from the Naruto manga. I guess the way Kishimoto made ninjas popular again?


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 19, 2011)

> I guess the way Kishimoto made ninjas popular again?


You mean wizards 

I bet Mashima started writing Fairy Tail because of Kishi.


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## Saunion (Sep 19, 2011)

If there's someone Mashima was inspired by I doubt it's Kishimoto.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 19, 2011)

Saunion said:


> If there's someone Mashima was inspired by I doubt it's Kishimoto.


I know, I was kidding 

Mashima claims that he's inspired by DB.


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## Addams (Sep 19, 2011)

The writing quality is one of the main reasons why some people dislike this manga.

Let's be honest here Kishimoto is not Oda by any stretch of the imagination, he's not consistent at all and the manga was pretty crappy for years.

Plus people love to hate.

That's a fact. I know people who actually like this manga but sometimes just bash it anyway for the fun of it.


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)

I knew this shit would turn into an OP vs Naruto thread lol but
JJBA>>HST

come at me


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 19, 2011)

City Hunter, Ranma 1/2, Kimengumi >> HST


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2011)

The only reason why this manga went from down hill to awesome is because of the Return of the King.


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## SoulFire (Sep 19, 2011)

On the whole, I agree with the OP regarding Naruto. The story fares quite well if you read it uninterrupted from the beginning (as I went back and did upon discovering it).  I agree that Kishi's problem lies with his pacing, but he does write a compelling story that keeps folks reading--even if they profess to find the plot/characters sub par.  Kishi creates characters so interesting that we want to see more of even the far to the side characters. Unfortunately, he just can't take time away from the main plot to focus on everyone, but I do believe that he is well aware of his open subplot lines and will sew everything up by story's end.

Regarding DB: I consider the villains in Naruto far more believable than those in DB, where the bad guys can repeatedly be blasted by everything the good guys have without a scratch and the battles are boring, repetitive rapid punch fests and energy blasts. I find Friesa to be one of the least impressive and terribly designed villains out there. I'm sorry, but he looks sillier with each transformation and is over the top snarky. I'll take the Naruto battles over DB ones every time. Kishi choreographs great fight scenes and they are usually wonderfully animated.

I admit that I am not a big manga/anime fan. I do not care for some aspects of Japanese humor or artistic stylization. I have enjoyed some other series, including FMA and like others here, I'm not all that fond of OP's exaggerated style and can't get past it to take the story seriously (as said elsewhere,  the drama suffers when the characters just look silly or weird). Nothing against OP--if you like it, fine. I just can't invest myself in it. 

In contrast, I like Kishi's more realistic style. Yes, there are big, strange looking monsters and some characters transform or have a more alien appearance (such as the Mist sword bearers), but on the whole characters are drawn in a more western style which I think has some bearing on the manga's popularity in the west. 

All in all, I truly enjoy Naruto. I love the main character because he is imperfect, yet striving to better himself. It is a manga with an underlying theme of hope for the future. I like that.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 19, 2011)

SoulFire! said:


> On the whole, I agree with the OP regarding Naruto. The story fares quite well if you read it uninterrupted from the beginning (as I went back and did upon discovering it).  I agree that Kishi's problem lies with his pacing, but he does write a compelling story that keeps folks reading--even if they profess to find the plot/characters sub par.  Kishi creates characters so interesting that we want to see more of even the far to the side characters. Unfortunately, he just can't take time away from the main plot to focus on everyone, but I do believe that he is well aware of his open subplot lines and will sew everything up by story's end.
> 
> Regarding DB: I consider the villains in Naruto far more believable than those in DB, where the bad guys can repeatedly be blasted by everything the good guys have without a scratch and the battles are boring, repetitive rapid punch fests and energy blasts. I find Friesa to be one of the least impressive and terribly designed villains out there. I'm sorry, but he looks sillier with each transformation and is over the top snarky. I'll take the Naruto battles over DB ones every time. Kishi choreographs great fight scenes and they are usually wonderfully animated.
> 
> ...



Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand ...

/thread


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## Hatifnatten (Sep 19, 2011)




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## bearzerger (Sep 19, 2011)

For me Naruto is definitely the best shounen manga. It's a bit strange though since individually I often find OP chapters better, though the current arc is pretty much the epitome of lame for OP-standards. However what Kishimoto does where Oda fails for me is that Kishimoto can draw me in the story. The OP characters are cool and often quite funny, the moves are badass, but the story well I really couldn't care less where the Strawhats are going next all that interests me is the current chapter. I'm far more involved with Naruto than with any other shounen manga. I wonder about where things go, the reasons and motivations of what just happened and the little boy in me also wonders how the moves work. Why else would I spend so much time here talking about it? I don't do that with any other manga.


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## Jυstin (Sep 19, 2011)

To me the current manga just lacks emotion. That detail that made it awe-inspiring.

In part 1, especially in the anime - the simple act of Sasuke's angry reaction to seeing Itachi in the hallway, him slamming his hand into the wall and forming Chidori, going through his pain-filled speech of how he lived for this day, grabbing his collar while saying "I'm gonna kill you", then charging at Itachi with his Chidori, dragging it down the hall wall as he runs, screaming/growling passionately and angrily, before lunging his hand out and shouting "Die!", while Itachi simply grabs his wrist at the last second to deflect the attack and blow a small hole in the wall - was full of more emotion, more feeling, and sent more chills down my spine than Part 2 ever did.

To me now it's all about uninspired flash.

Edit: I mean, just look at this.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFyoJB7POp0[/YOUTUBE]

Can't you feel it too? 19 seconds, just 19 seconds and it already contains so much.


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## Saunion (Sep 19, 2011)

It's funny how the cool kids of today think it's ok to bash Dragon Ball without realizing that Toriyama is actually worshipped by guys like Kishimoto or Oda and that without him there would be no Naruto or One Piece.

Dragon Ball is still to these days the consummate action/adventure shonen. Of course if you're not really interested in shonen but rather in soap opera pseudo shonen ai like a large part of the Naruto fandom, I guess this doesn't really matter.


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## HawkMan (Sep 19, 2011)

SoulFire! said:


> On the whole, I agree with the OP regarding Naruto. The story fares quite well if you read it uninterrupted from the beginning (as I went back and did upon discovering it).  I agree that Kishi's problem lies with his pacing, but he does write a compelling story that keeps folks reading--even if they profess to find the plot/characters sub par.  Kishi creates characters so interesting that we want to see more of even the far to the side characters. Unfortunately, he just can't take time away from the main plot to focus on everyone, but I do believe that he is well aware of his open subplot lines and will sew everything up by story's end.
> 
> Regarding DB: I consider the villains in Naruto far more believable than those in DB, where the bad guys can repeatedly be blasted by everything the good guys have without a scratch and the battles are boring, repetitive rapid punch fests and energy blasts. I find Friesa to be one of the least impressive and terribly designed villains out there. I'm sorry, but he looks sillier with each transformation and is over the top snarky. I'll take the Naruto battles over DB ones every time. Kishi choreographs great fight scenes and they are usually wonderfully animated.
> 
> ...


I can't help but agree with most, if not all, of this I feel many of us view DBZ through nostalgic glasses, something many part 1 lovers of Naruto are accused of. Though, I also feel the Zabuza arc and Chuunin Exams to be the best examples of Kishi's writing, a level not since revisited. 

Certainly reading such a work in the manner the OP suggests is better than the analysis we tend to give it weekly. I also enjoy his art, at time's it can be mesmerizing-it's not perfect but I love the style. Kishi use to excel with his characters but their exploration has either grown stagnant or completely destroyed the characters due to the uncertainty of the direction Kishi wanted to take them. 

Also, the current Arc was a horrible mistake. I understand the desire to satiate fans through exploration of his world-but the execution was wrought with problems. The lack of tension, too much to deal with, and too long a break from the actual plot really undermines the overall story. He just needs to finish the story, because he's certainly got everything out of it that he could have ever hoped for.


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)




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## Kathutet (Sep 19, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> I knew this shit would turn into an OP vs Naruto thread lol but
> JJBA>>HST
> 
> come at me


STOP MAKING SENSE


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Sep 19, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> funny even after all his hard work of catching up to itachi he's still an emotional noob



Just another example of Kishi being a failure of a writer


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## iGoku (Sep 19, 2011)

there are some crazy people on this thread people are saying naruto is the best shounen manga of all time? get this crap out of here.

dragonball might not be the best manga but it shits on naruto anyday


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## Jυstin (Sep 19, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> funny even after all his hard work of catching up to itachi he's still an emotional noob



But now he's an emotional noob with nukes for eyes 

Run for the hills! Amaterasu tantrum!


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## Addams (Sep 19, 2011)

> dragonball might not be the best manga but it shits on naruto anyday



You can't beat the awesomeness of Trunks and Vegeta. 

That's just impossible.


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## iGoku (Sep 19, 2011)

Addams said:


> You can't beat the awesomeness of Trunks and Vegeta.
> 
> That's just impossible.



you speak the truth and lets not forget goku gohan and mr satan! lol


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## Jυstin (Sep 19, 2011)

I love DBZ, but I preferred Naruto for the use of strategy, really complex strategy, and the concept of layers and layers of tricks and deception.

But now, with Naruto trying to be like DBZ, it's failing miserably. Nothing can do DBZ better than DBZ. Those powerhouse fights were intense. Nothing can compare to it. Naruto should have stuck to the strategic and deceptive fights of part 1. That worked for it.


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## Turrin (Sep 19, 2011)

Dragon ball is okay, but I don't think its as good as Naruto. Dragon Ball was very good up to the end of the Piccolo Saga, than after that it was still decent up until the end of the Frieza Saga [though not at its best], but from Cell Saga on it turned into piece of shit. 

Naruto was better overall in Part I much like Dragon Ball imo, but it has not turned into a piece of shit in Part II like Dragon Ball did, rather its gone through ups and downs and as we near the end of the story some arcs are as good as Part I. Dragon Ball never reclaimed the magic it had at the beginning of the story.

When it comes to one piece, it's problem is kind of the reverse of Dragon Ball, the beginning of One piece to me was very bad. All the way up to the Alabast Arc, One Piece is horribly difficult to read through. Honest Oda is dam lucky that he didn't get canceled. However post Alabast Arc One Piece is really good and some times better than Naruto. However I still give the nod to Naruto since it had a good beginning and the problem with One Piece's lack of a good beginning really hurts it and I have seen many people give up on reading it because the beginning is so bad and I'll have to tell them that it eventually gets good.

Bleach is just laughable when compared to Naruto, Dragon Ball, or One Piece.  HXH was pretty good at the start and than became pretty horrible at the chimera ants arc, not to mention totally ripping off DBZ. Fairy Tale is decent but not the best. 

Yu Yu Hakusho and Flame of Recca are probably the best Shounnen imo and beat out Naruto, One Piece, and Dragon Ball. Kishi's brother's manga Blazer Drive had that potential as well, but I don't know what happened to it these days, since no one's scanning it any more.


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## bearzerger (Sep 19, 2011)

Ah, the typical DB reactionaries. DB was definitely a milestone for shounen manga, just like LOTR was for fantasy literature or Star Trek for science fiction shows, but to say that there is no progress in modern works is just ridiculous. Modern authors built on the works of the older ones and they usually try to improve on the works which influenced them in their youth. And the better ones among them usually succeed.


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## Addams (Sep 19, 2011)

> Bleach is just laughable when compared to Naruto



Actually i find Bleach character's way better but it's true that since the SS arc the story is not really good.

But well, guess that a Bleach fan would say that since part 2 Naruto is crappy too.


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## santanico (Sep 19, 2011)

Naruto definitely has its good moments, but I don't think its the best manga, imo.
Kishi does an okay job, but he can do better... For instance improving the background on his side characters, not just shikamaru and gaara, but hey that's just me.


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## Chibason (Sep 19, 2011)

I think it's a really great manga. The characters, designs, and plot elements are all interesting on a regular basis...Ninjas ftw


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## Animeblue (Sep 19, 2011)

*To the OP, your thread had a good start but it slowly becoming another Naruto vs. One Piece thread



bearzerger said:



			For me Naruto is definitely the best shounen manga. It's a bit strange though since individually I often find OP chapters better, though the current arc is pretty much the epitome of lame for OP-standards. However what Kishimoto does where Oda fails for me is that Kishimoto can draw me in the story. The OP characters are cool and often quite funny, the moves are badass, but the story well I really couldn't care less where the Strawhats are going next all that interests me is the current chapter. I'm far more involved with Naruto than with any other shounen manga. I wonder about where things go, the reasons and motivations of what just happened and the little boy in me also wonders how the moves work. Why else would I spend so much time here talking about it? I don't do that with any other manga.
		
Click to expand...


I feel somewhat the same way with One Piece. Although I often feel like I'm reading the same arc over and over again, but in a different setting in One Piece*


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

I am fine if this becomes a Naruto vs OP, at times a prefer OP, but the characters design turn me off sometimes and I turn to Naruto for more fights, OP has tons of dialogue pushed into one chapter though. If people think OP is better then Naruto, fine. Losing to OP or other epic manga like FMA does not make Naruto fail, far from it.


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)




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## αce (Sep 19, 2011)

> Losing to OP or other epic manga like FMA does not make Naruto fail, far from it.



Unfortunately, the actual content does. And I completely reject the argument that the only reason I'm saying this is to look big. I geniunely think this manga took a turn for the worse after Pain's death, although it went downhill ever since Part 2 began in the first place.

The only thing keeping my clinging to this manga and hoping for wednesday release is Madara and Sasuke. Everything else slips my mind. You can imagine how the last few weeks have been for me.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 19, 2011)

Please spoiler tag this. Thanks.


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)

Kenneth said:


> STOP MAKING SENSE



I apologize


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## Saunion (Sep 19, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> I love DBZ, but I preferred Naruto for the use of strategy, really complex strategy, and the concept of layers and layers of tricks and deception.



If you think strategy in Naruto has ever been "really complex", you have pretty low standards. 

Sure, Naruto fights have more strategy than Dragon Ball's. But that doesn't make them inherently better. You can talk all the shit you want about Toriyama, but there's two things he excels in, and that's humor (he's actually the best gag mangaka ever IMO) and drawing fight scenes. 



> Dragon ball is okay, but I don't think its as good as Naruto. Dragon Ball was very good up to the end of the Piccolo Saga, than after that it was still decent up until the end of the Frieza Saga [though not at its best], but from Cell Saga on it turned into piece of shit.



The only bad part of Dragon Ball is the Cell saga. The Buu saga was actually a fantastic return to form, to the early days of the series where it was far more lighthearted and tongue in cheek, with Toriyama having a lot of fun with his story. It was a fitting last arc, and far better than whatever trainwreck is currently happening in Naruto.


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## Kathutet (Sep 19, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> I apologize


it's alright, but never do that again
making sense forces the naruto sections to implode


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## Ra (Sep 19, 2011)

Kishi has been pushing my buttons as of late with these rushed/skipped fights and Naruto's arrogant attitude.


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## Addams (Sep 19, 2011)

> Who's going to give a shit about say, Shikamaru in 20 years?



That's an interesting question. Is there anything in this stuff who's going to survive the test of time ?

Naruto is quite well-known of course but well, the 3 main characters have nothing special for being honest. Naruto is a very classic shonen hero, dumb but hard-working. Sasuke is the fallen from grace, always mad at something, looking good dude. And Sakura is...she...he...whatever

Now thanks god this manga has some very cool secondary characters but honestly expect the fans, who's going to remember those poor souls ?

The universe is cool and Oro sure is a creepy villain. Who knows ? Maybe it's him people will remember.


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## Kuromaku (Sep 19, 2011)

Contrary to what the haters may say, _Naruto_ is not the worst manga ever.  Far from it.  But to be honest, the people who say that it is the best, or one of the best shonen manga ever are going too far in the opposite direction and honestly need to read more _shonen_ manga - that is, manga that fall into the shonen category rather than simply being a battle series.

_Naruto_ has its good points, namely its strong supporting cast and some interesting fights (contrary to some of the recent bitching, I actually rather liked the skirmish against the former Raikage).  The "Land of the Waves Arc", while looked upon with nostalgia filtering things out, is still among the better arcs in the story.  It's not the best arc, as it is clear that Kishimoto was still working on his art, panel layout, jokes, and characterization during it.  The high point of the series, to me, was the "Chunin Exams Arc", which offered the best mix of characterization and plotting in the manga at any point.  The build up to the battle between villages was perfect, and characters were fleshed out, as was the world of the story.

Now here's where we get into the flaws.  
*Spoiler*: __ 



Flaw number one, Kishimoto's tendency to sacrifice characterization at the cost of plotting.  Take a look at Gaara and Lee's interactions in Part I.  There's a continuity to them, starting from their battle during the Chunin exams.  By the end of Part I, they've reached a sort of mutual understanding.  Now look at when they meet again at the start of Part II.  There's no acknowledgment - no continuity.  It's rather jarring considering how character driven the first part of the story was.  This is but one of many noted examples of when Kishimoto developed a habit of sacrificing characterization for the sake of the story's flow (see Sakura's character arc).

The second problem, and it's not exactly a minor one, is Kishimoto's problems with "show, don't tell."  That is, he violates the rule, repeatedly.  I won't get into this, considering how many posts I've developed to this issue in the past.

The third problem is the plot itself.  It appears almost as if Kishimoto is simultaneously stretching things out, speeding things up, and going in all sorts of directions at a week's notice.  This is actually rather noticeable if one reads the collected volumes, particularly after the "Hunt for Itachi Arc."  The Jubi revelation and the increased importance of dojutsu that are not the Byakugan are rather irksome, with the former seeming to come out of a poorly written piece of fanfiction, and the latter just being an issue with Part II once Sasuke's arcs came into play.

There are other issues, but they are more minor, so I won't be getting into them, as they don't really mean much in regards to enjoying the story.




Is _Naruto_ destined for greatness?  I'm not quite sure of that, although I am pretty sure that if it is remembered, it will be through a strong lens of nostalgia.  Is it terrible?  No, but portions of Part II are rather mediocre, and one of Kishimoto's strengths, the use of the various characters and their depth, has become a bit of a weakness during Part II.  Is it cheesy?  Yes, but so are God knows how many other shonen manga of the battle genre.

All in all, _Naruto_ is a decent read.  It's not _Dragon Ball_ (which benefited from its author being a strong comedy writer) or _Barefoot Gen_ (which, believe it or not, ran in _Shonen Jump_).  But it definitely has some elements that set it out from the rest of the pack, elements that are at times difficult to see, but elements that are there nonetheless.


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## Ankit (Sep 19, 2011)

Addams said:


> That's an interesting question. Is there anything in this stuff who's going to survive the test of time ?
> 
> Naruto is quite well-known of course but well, the 3 main characters have nothing special for being honest. Naruto is a very classic shonen hero, dumb but hard-working. Sasuke is the fallen from grace, always mad at something, looking good dude. And Sakura is...she...he...whatever
> 
> ...



The way the main character has been presented in this series is unique. Off course, if you write his attributes, you will find a lot of guys like him, but its the  way that those common qualities are presented that makes the difference. Naruto is the best inspiring character for me.


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## Cobblepot (Sep 19, 2011)

Some people should seriously broaden their manga culture and read something other than Naruto, it's fucking scary!


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## Naruto Fighto (Sep 19, 2011)

I'll reserve my judgement about "Naruto" until the series is over and finished. What I think now is it has great fights and lots of unique characters, Kishimoto is a talented man.


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## ♥Red♥ (Sep 19, 2011)

Saunion said:


> This kind of thread is honestly as pointless as these "why is Sakura hated!!!" ones.
> 
> Naruto is a poor work of fiction. It's not the worst thing out there, but it's thematically incoherent, disingenuous, melodramatic in the worst sense of the word, poorly paced,* averagely drawn*, both pretentious and naive, not very creative, not particularly funny and most of all, it's stretched so thin you can see through it. It should have ended 400 chapters ago.



Well I don?t agree with your opinion but still I accept it ,the only thing that makes it so hard to accept is the "this manga is aveagely drawn " .Kishi and his "helpers" have just one week time for drawing the whole chapter and there are parts that look very meh but also  many panels that look really creative like  Susanoo (the jutsu ) or Jirayas SM.I think you should low your  expectations a little bit


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## Saunion (Sep 19, 2011)

Reddress00 said:


> Well I don?t agree with your opinion but still I accept it ,the only thing that makes it so hard to accept is the "this manga is aveagely drawn " .Kishi and his "helpers" have just one week time for drawing the whole chapter and there are parts that look very meh but also  many panels that look really creative like  Susanoo (the jutsu ) or Jirayas SM.I think you should low your  expectations a little bit



I'm comparing it to other weekly shonen series. Compared to stuff like Air Gear from Oh! Great for ex, Naruto has average art. And I don't even like Oh! Great's artstyle that much, but he still has a level of technical mastery that far surpasses that of Kishimoto, despite having the same schedule.


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## Iamacloud (Sep 19, 2011)

Naruto suffers from the same disease that plagued Star Wars. Incredibly interesting setup/universe with great characters but poor storytelling, dialogues and failure to get the reader/watcher to relate to the characters. (for exemple, Anakin's turning to the dark side, Sakura's love for Sasuke, Sasuke spitting on Itachi's will, etc.)

That's where Oda files as far as I'm concerned. He is an amazing storyteller, and every single character that has any relevance is well-developed. Each crewmember has it's own backstory, it's own dreams, and their own relations with the rest of the crew. Oda even manages to take characters which design were complete turn-off for me initially, and through development lead me to love them. I couldn't stand Mr.2 (cross-dresser with flamingo on his shoulders... *shivers*), but after seeing Bon-clay sacrifice himself twice for friendship in as manly a way as his apparence allows, I came to love The character. I couldn't stand Franky's speedo at first, and yet Oda managed to make me grow fond of him too. Otohime sounded much like the blind idealist that Naruto is, and somehow got on my nerve for that. But then Oda shows her crying and doubting herself and her quest for peace and she became much more sympathetic in my view.

Honestly if the rookies (including Sakura, Naruto and Sasuke) were as well developed as the straw hat crew is, there would be a lot less criticism about Naruto I think, since a lot of criticism stems from Kishi's handling of his character development. People wouldn't bitch so much about Naruto and Sakura chasing after Sasuke if their bonds had bene presented in a more believable manner.


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## ♥Red♥ (Sep 19, 2011)

Saunion said:


> I'm comparing it to other weekly shonen series. Compared to stuff like Air Gear from Oh! Great for ex, Naruto has average art. And I don't even like Oh! Great's artstyle that much, but he still has a level of technical mastery that far surpasses that of Kishimoto, despite having the same schedule.



You?re  right ,Air Gear is a very good drawn manga this panel 

but other mangas (shonen jump) aren?t better drawn than Naruto ,so I think this shouldn?t make Naruto drawing style averange but not at the level of Air gear either  But opinon is opinion after all


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)

edo

fucking

tensei


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 19, 2011)

*totally ignoring the One Piece and other manga comparisons since taking the manga of its own accord should not involve a comparison*

I agree with the OP.  Most people who spew hatred for this manga have some axe to grind about something, as not a lot has changed over time.  I notice a lot of people who were willing to accept that Naruto could just transform his body into a shuriken, or that Haku can move in ice mirrors now consistently shake their heads at new, more powerful jutsu - but that is quite obviously because a lot of people had a stopping point in reading.  People established some imaginary rules that Kishi never disavowed, and then were ticked when Kishi went further.  Or perhaps their favorite character was trolled.  Perhaps one of the arcs wasn't their favorite.

*shrugs*

Still a darn good manga.  Who cares if its the best?


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## Addams (Sep 19, 2011)

There is some part i liked since the beginning of part 2. 

But for being honest most of this huge enthusiasm for this manga i had during part 1 pretty much disappeared.

Still a fan though, not a very passionate one but a fan. 

And come on we all want to know how this stuff end, don't we now ?


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 19, 2011)

Well sheesh, its like which manga do I consider better?  I hate One Piece for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with Naruto.  Does that means its a horrible manga, and that I think because of it, Naruto is good?  Nope.

But I suppose its inevitable that the fanboys cross verbal swords over this nonsensical discussion.

I will say this.  One Piece and Naruto are not a lot alike except in the fact that they're shonen.  You may really like one over the other purely in preference to the manga style.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 19, 2011)

People do not like the start of one piece thats news to me, i loved the East blue arcs a lot.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 19, 2011)

Kuromaku said:


> Contrary to what the haters may say, _Naruto_ is not the worst manga ever.  Far from it.  But to be honest, the people who say that it is the best, or one of the best shonen manga ever are going too far in the opposite direction and honestly need to read more _shonen_ manga - that is, manga that fall into the shonen category rather than simply being a battle series.
> 
> _Naruto_ has its good points, namely its strong supporting cast and some interesting fights (contrary to some of the recent bitching, I actually rather liked the skirmish against the former Raikage).  The "Land of the Waves Arc", while looked upon with nostalgia filtering things out, is still among the better arcs in the story.  It's not the best arc, as it is clear that Kishimoto was still working on his art, panel layout, jokes, and characterization during it.  The high point of the series, to me, was the "Chunin Exams Arc", which offered the best mix of characterization and plotting in the manga at any point.  The build up to the battle between villages was perfect, and characters were fleshed out, as was the world of the story.
> 
> ...



Good post.

Anyone who says naruto is the worst manga ever, need to read more then naruto. 

or just read bleach.


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## ajinko (Sep 19, 2011)

fact of the matter is kishi stopped caring about neji, lee, tenten, sakura, hinata, tsunade, shino, kiba, kakashi, tsunade etc. To me it feels like kishi stopped caring and just wants to finish it.  there is a stark difference between part 1 and part2. naruto went from a underdog to a messiah.   and we really haven't seen anything new from the rest of them.

characters that are driving the story right now are:

- naruto
-sasuke
-madara
-kabuto
-bee
-zetsu. 

the rest have no impact. or miniscule contribution.


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)

@doctor crane
same diffarence


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## sabakunay (Sep 19, 2011)

Fay said:


> I think around 1.5 years ago I left this forum and manga behind during the 'reunion' between Sasuke, Kakashi, Sakura & Naruto because I was a butt hurt Sasuke- & pairingtard.
> 
> Now the Sandaime raikage chapter talks renewed my interest and I decided to start reading the manga again from where I stopped. No fandoms and anti-fandoms to influence me, no spoilers too brood over and no time to make up little fantasies on how *I* want the next chapter to play out I read chapter after chapter and I realized why exactly this manga is so popular worldwide: *for a shounen manga it's pretty damn good.*
> 
> ...



Exactly. Very well said, the manga is good and that is why everybody reads it, just some of them won't admit that.


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> Well sheesh, its like which manga do I consider better?  I hate One Piece for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with Naruto.  Does that means its a horrible manga, and that I think because of it, Naruto is good?  Nope.
> 
> But I suppose its inevitable that the fanboys cross verbal swords over this nonsensical discussion.
> 
> I will say this.  One Piece and Naruto are not a lot alike except in the fact that they're shonen.  You may really like one over the other purely in preference to the manga style.



lol 

on topic
someone should just put this in the complaints thread since that's all that's going on in here


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## Louis-954 (Sep 19, 2011)

> fact of the matter is kishi stopped caring about neji, lee, tenten,  sakura, hinata, tsunade, shino, kiba, kakashi, tsunade etc. To me it  feels like kishi stopped caring and just wants to finish it.  there is a  stark difference between part 1 and part2. naruto went from a underdog  to a messiah.   and we really haven't seen anything new from the rest of  them.


Kakashi is still very relevant to the plot. We'll see more of him soon. Kishi just needed to flesh out the Edos, Naruto, Kabuto, Sasuke, Madara, etc first.


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## Soca (Sep 19, 2011)

I still don't understand the purpose of fleshing out dead people to die again


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## CrazyAries (Sep 19, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> *totally ignoring the One Piece and other manga comparisons since taking the manga of its own accord should not involve a comparison*
> 
> I agree with the OP.  Most people who spew hatred for this manga have some axe to grind about something, *as not a lot has changed over time.  I notice a lot of people who were willing to accept that Naruto could just transform his body into a shuriken, or that Haku can move in ice mirrors now consistently shake their heads at new, more powerful jutsu - but that is quite obviously because a lot of people had a stopping point in reading. * People established some imaginary rules that Kishi never disavowed, and then were ticked when Kishi went further.  Or perhaps their favorite character was trolled.  Perhaps one of the arcs wasn't their favorite.
> 
> ...



I disagree with the bolded part in particular.  Much has changed, especially Naruto's character.  He went from being an underdog to being the Child of Prophecy.  And, yes there was a jump in power scaling and the number of nin showed to have kekkei genkai (Many think those should be rare, but it is understandable that other villages would have other kekkei genkai).  Per the mention of Naruto's use of transformation jutsu:  It was *simple* and *clever*.  Haku's Ice Mirrors may have been powerful, but they were combined with Haku's skill with senbon.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 19, 2011)

CrazyAries said:


> I disagree with the bolded part in particular.  Much has changed, especially Naruto's character.  He went from being an underdog to being the Child of Prophecy.  And, yes there was a jump in power scaling and the number of nin showed to have kekkei genkai (Many think those should be rare, but it is understandable that other villages would have other kekkei genkai).  Per the mention of Naruto's use of transformation jutsu:  It was *simple* and *clever*.  Haku's Ice Mirrors may have been powerful, but they were combined with Haku's skill with senbon.



1)  Underdog to Child of Prophecy:  Misunderstood to the nth degree.  Its a topic in and of itself, but the important point to walk away with is this:  Naruto is, and always will be the underdog.  Prophecy does not mean the future.  Prophecy is a prediction of what is to come.  There have been several candidates.  Jiraiya, Minato, Nagato, etc.  This Child of Prophecy merely means that someone predicted that someone, not necessarily Naruto, would rise to fill this heroe's shoes.  It just so happens to be Naruto - who was the underdog in every sense of the word.  Of course, we're coming to the very end of the manga, so he's no longer the weakest guy in the room.  At some point, he moved into hero status.  But the point is, you can be both the underdog AND the child of prophecy.  They're not exclusive.

2)  Kekkei Genkai are rare.  But lets face this straight up.  We read a manga.  If I were to talk about this in reality, I would compare it to a newspaper.  We're going to hear about the heroes, the special ones in a war.  Tis no different.  In fact, its likely we read more and more about those with special powers - since they are the most likely to be problems in the war.  Its not that there are necessarily MORE of them, but that they are at the forefront of the fighting.  The statistical imbalance is easily explained by the fact that when war comes, you want your best to be taking charge and fighting.  Those usually include people of special abilities.  Remember, there are a boatload of ninja.  Only one can use black lightning.  But we spend our time with that one cause he's naturally going to be a leader.

Additionally, there were a lot of kekkei genkai users in Part 1, it just wasn't identified as such back then.  People like Udon/Sakon, Kimi, Kidomaru.  3 of the 5 were KG users.  Statistical imbalance?  Sure!  But that's cause they happen to be really strong, and thus more likely to serve Orochimaru.

3)  Clever, but not very simple.  I mean, nobody has yet explained to me how a body can fit into an ice mirror.  Even in Kishi's manga, its a stretch.  Really makes even less sense that it makes Haku fast.  I always come back to the first arc to center my opinion on the manga, and I just accepted it back then.  I still just accept alot now - unless its been told to me before IN THE MANGA that it was impossible.  People act like Muu's particle tech just doesn't fit.  Or that the Raikage's stamina/shielding is way too convenient.  *shrugs*  If you're going to start questioning it now, you cannot tell me ice mirrors make any more sense.  My only guess, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, is that those people are upset over something else.  The evolving and new techniques are just smokescreens for the underlying complaint:  I don't enjoy the manga anymore.  Not a reason.


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## ajinko (Sep 19, 2011)

^ we know the manga is coming to an end but there is no need to emphasize the whole prophecy bullshit. 

tsunade: naruto the prophet lets rely on him

raikage: he truly is the prophet lets rely on him

gaara: o chosen one ur the one we can rely on.

Jiraya: the prophet is naruto. the world peace depends onhim. 

nagato: the prophet will finally bring the world to peace.

konan: oh rainbow prophet 

naruto: I'm the prophet leave everyhting to me. i'll solve everything. i'll bear ur burden. I am the only one who can do it.  

- in case nobody notices that's how pathetic it got. now compare that to part 1. let's not forget to add itachi and hell of a lot of other people to the bandwagon.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Sep 19, 2011)

I love this manga to it's core and I know it isn't one of the best, it doesn't have to be it. Still, it is nice to see for a change an appreciation thread in this section.



Supa Swag said:


> Yeah, he can. He drew the pic in my avatar. Akainu is pretty normal too (face wise, anyway).



Could I know in which OP volume I can find that drawing?



Nikushimi said:


> People love to bash Naruto because it makes them look like one of the "big kids", but in reality, Naruto's one of the best shounen manga out there. Sure it has had its low points, but I think Kishimoto has done a good job with it overall so far.
> 
> Especially when you compare it with tripe like Bleach, KHR, and Psyren...and DGM, which isn't bad, but nowhere near Naruto's level... I would easily place Naruto in the same league as Dragonball or Yu Yu Hakushou. In some ways, I'd say it even surpasses both.
> 
> EDIT: However, yes, there are better shounen series than Naruto out there. For anyone who's interested, I'd strongly recommend Rurouni Kenshin and Fullmetal Alchemist.



Agreed with everything. FMA specifically was a great manga.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 19, 2011)

ajinko said:


> ^ we know the manga is coming to an end but there is no need to emphasize the whole prophecy bullshit.
> 
> tsunade: naruto the prophet lets rely on him
> 
> ...



Hmm...I'll open up that can of worms.

What do you have against the prophecy?  Do you just not like prophecies?

Honestly, I suppose if there was some reason why the prophecy itself is bad, but its not.  It's not even set in stone.

I would point out that some of the characters you are referring to never talk about a prophecy.  Believing IN Naruto is not the same thing as believing he is the Child of Prophecy.  Everyone's believed in Naruto, even from the beginning - at some point in their roles in the manga.

Explain yourself to me, and perhaps I can respond.  I see nothing wrong with a prophecy.  It doesn't change what happened, and it doesn't change Naruto one iota.  The proof is that he is doing everything he can to change the ninja world, which he stated was his goal on his very first mission.


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

Problem with the prophecy and him being chosen is something I hear a lot. I get that, but I see that in many of the big manga? 

Spoilers for some.
FMA, his father turned out to be some ancient immortal god freak, OP all his family members are epic and has the legendary super rare Haki, bleach his father was a shinigami and his life was manipulated by Aizen for his power. 
Many manga have these themes, Naruto is not different, that does not make it shit, unless all the others are as well because of this.


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## ajinko (Sep 19, 2011)

i don't have a problem with destiny and predestiny but the whole prophecy and 'child of prophecy" and how everyone preaches narutoism is just bad delivery on kishis's part. i feel  like i'm reading a birth of a religion. 

naruto's character himself has become all about self-glorification in a really terrible way.

it's just bad delivery mate and u can see the way kishi rushed it.   i mean how in the hell does raikage know about the prophecy?

i mean i have nothing against religion. i respect the prophets. but it is gross to see kishi emaluating it.

and it is still ridiciulous how everyone just leaves everything to naruto like blind sheep. i mean the point of side characters are there to support the main character isn't it? but no leave everything to him, which is exactly whats happening here in this war.


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

As for the idolization of part 1, part 1 was OK. Never used to mind that until it was used to bash the hell out of part 2. 

One critique is people say the power levels are off in part 2? really? Naruto being able to use KN0 and summon Gamabunta put him on a level far above most already, we also knew he would be powerful someday from the first time we found out he had a kyuubi inside him, and we always new he was the son of the fourth.

Part 1 explained the Narutoverse and introduced us to the characters it served its purpose and so it ended.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 19, 2011)

summers said:


> Problem with the prophecy and him being chosen is something I hear a lot. I get that, but I see that in many of the big manga?
> 
> Spoilers for some.
> *FMA, his father turned out to be some ancient immortal god freak*, OP all his family members are epic and has the legendary super rare Haki, bleach his father was a shinigami and his life was manipulated by Aizen for his power.
> Many manga have these themes, Naruto is not different, that does not make it shit, unless all the others are as well because of this.



Edward's dad did not have anything to do with his power actually, but your right with the other mangas. Which is actually a common theme in most literature, the main character  being related to someone extremely important.


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

ajinko said:


> i don't have a problem with destiny and predestiny but the whole prophecy and 'child of prophecy" and how everyone preaches narutoism is just bad delivery on kishis's part. i feel  like i'm reading a birth of a religion.
> 
> naruto's character himself has become all about self-glorification in a really terrible way.
> 
> ...



So it how he introduced the theme not the theme itself that you have a problem with? That's all good. I just dont think its enough to contribute in the thought that this manga is horrible.

The side characters have been doing there part, they do what they can do and he does what he does. We cant expect those guys to fight people like the Raikage, it was amazing enough that shika and Co took out Edo-false-jin. The rest of them are busy fighting of waves of Durable chakra draining perfect transforming Zetsu clones.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 19, 2011)

Judecious said:


> It's good only when it has Naruto.  Panels without him makes the manga shit.



Actually, it's precisely the opposite.

Almost anything having to do with Team 7 these days is basically unreadable.

It's the villains and secondary characters who still keep things interesting and don't just throw their emotional baggage all over the place.


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## Superstars (Sep 19, 2011)

Naruto manga has the best fights out of the big three, period.


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Edward's dad did not have anything to do with his power actually, but your right with the other mangas. Which is actually a common theme in most literature, the main character  being related to someone extremely important.



Yeah FMA was rare in that part all Ed inherited was the looks, but I think it was a cause for him to be targeted right?

Anyway I think its pretty hard in manga like this to avoid it. Author wants to make a underdog character but he has to special he has to have something that makes him different from others, something that readers and characters in manga look at saw OMG wow in terms of power and/or ability and that is explained using a lineage or prophecy like reveal later on.



Nikushimi said:


> Actually, it's precisely the opposite.
> 
> Almost anything having to do with Team 7 these days is basically unreadable.
> 
> It's the villains and secondary characters who still keep things interesting and don't just throw their emotional baggage all over the place.



Pain threw his emotional baggage all over Konoha "nuke-na Tensai!" Madara is going to brainwash the world cause his butthurt over Hashirama and the Senju. I do think the villains are interesting though. I also believe that team 7 is self destructive and take part in unhealthy co-dependent behavior. They, -Naruto, all fail as teammates.


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## Akimichi Juro (Sep 19, 2011)

Supa Swag said:


> It'll be unique if he actually stays an antagonist for the remainder of the story rather than get converted by Naruto for some reason (which will happen).



Maybe so, maybe no, who knows.


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## Naruto Fighto (Sep 19, 2011)

summers said:


> The rest of them are busy fighting of waves of Durable chakra draining perfect transforming Zetsu clones.



Not good enough. I could defeat a zetsu clone just give me a sword lol. Those zetsu clones run into fight butt naked. 

Someone like Neji who has a lot of potential should fight some stronger enemies.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 19, 2011)

ajinko said:


> i don't have a problem with destiny and predestiny but the whole prophecy and 'child of prophecy" and how everyone preaches narutoism is just bad delivery on kishis's part. i feel  like i'm reading a birth of a religion.
> 
> naruto's character himself has become all about self-glorification in a really terrible way.
> 
> ...



Prophecy is not the same as predestination, which is why I think any discussion of Neji usually is completely misleading.

The religious subtext to which you refer is intentional.  Not that this is some sort of religion you know or can recognize, mind you.

But prophecy is not explainable.  Its not scientific.  Its mystical, so ergo it does have that spiritual edge to it.  Nobody knows how the Toad receives his prophecies.  Its an element of magic, and its the closest thing we're going to get to ninja talking about some power beyond theirs.

Quite frankly, however, it would indeed be odd for this not to exist.  Kishi avoids talking about what ninja believe in like the plague.  The best example of religion is Hidan's Jashin religion - which is editorialized to a great extent as "insane".  Kishi instead focuses in on the bonds and ideals ninja believe in to be important.  That is their philosophical code.

But at some point, we need to accept something if a world is to feel real, and it was glaringly missing from Part 1.  What do people in the Narutoverse believe in?  They talk about bad luck, death gods, and meeting in the afterlife.  Prophecy is common in all cultures, and we know that it applied to Naruto even before we knew about the prophecy.  I say that because we all knew Naruto was special.  He was the underdog, but his character exceeded everyone's expectations all of the time.  (doesn't hurt that he's the main character of a shonen manga, lol, it sort of has to be intentional)

Secondly, I dislike the term Narutoism.  It doesn't reflect the manga.  In the manga, a character like Iruka (not very strong), will leave things to Naruto.  But Gaara will fight WITH Naruto.  And people like Itachi explain to Naruto that the best strategy is to work with his friends, just like Tsunade explains to the Raikage that its their best interest to work with Naruto.

All of the faith being placed in Naruto is because he is the leader character.  He has natural leadership skills.  He's quick to make his own decisions that others follow.  He has supreme confidence.  He's powerful.  He's charismatic.  And most importantly, he's genuine.

People who know Naruto want him to do well, to succeed, and when they say they put their trust in Naruto - what most of them mean is they trust him to do the right thing in success (and they will be pleased by that success).

Take it out of the religious context for a second, because the Prophecy and Naruto being where he need to be separated for just a moment.  If there was no prophecy, people would still be placing their trust in Naruto - happened all throughout Part 1.  We'd still be in this place.  The prophecy itself has nothing to do with it because the prophecy does not do anything.  If Naruto wanted to just roll over and die, the prophecy can't jump in and force him to act.  If the prophecy named Naruto specifically, and Naruto turned out like Sasuke, nobody would follow him, and the prophecy would be proven untrue.  The two have very little to do with one another.  Its just that some people know about a prophecy to change the world.  They think Naruto will be that person.

Jiraiya once thought Minato and Nagato were that person.  Both proved not to be.  Had more people known, its very likely that Minato would have been trumpeted as the Child of Prophecy.


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## Ukoku (Sep 19, 2011)

^I agree with *all* of that.


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## vagnard (Sep 19, 2011)

It's a setting with a lot of potential (sadly wasted) and it had an interesting cast of main characters before they were droped to the trash can to focus in the bromance between Naruto and Sasuke. 

But right now it's a very mediocre shounen manga. From all the characters I'm barely interested on Madara. I read it mostly due custome. But I wouldn't consider it even close to other Shounens like Hunter x Hunter, Rurouni Kenshin, FMA, Toriko, Yu Yu Hakusho, HSDK etc, despise its popularity...

Until Chunnin exam Naruto was between my Top 5 favourite shounen mangas. Now it isn't even between my top 20. Personally I believe this isn't just a problem with Naruto but with the entire HST. I don't like Naruto like before but I can't simply stand Bleach and One Piece. 

I don't agree with people who claim us (the ones who critize Naruto) try to feel superior. That's stupid. After all we are all reading manga. Nobody is doing rocket science. It would be fantastic if I could enjoy this manga again like I did in Part 1... but it feels so damaged that I doubt it's possible. 

Part 2 has been big mess but it still had enjoyable parts... but with the Child of Destiny thing and Sasuke's hatred it really lowered its level to cataclismic proportions.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Sep 19, 2011)

I definitely don't think Naruto is the worst shonen manga, for example everything that has happened in the last two arcs of Katekyo Hitman Reborn is worse. I recall once reading a manga called DNA2 (that's squared), that was quite a bit of a disappointment aswell...


summers said:


> Problem with the prophecy and him being chosen is something I hear a lot. I get that, but I see that in many of the big manga?
> 
> Spoilers for some.
> FMA, his father turned out to be some ancient immortal god freak, OP all his family members are epic and has the legendary super rare Haki, bleach his father was a shinigami and his life was manipulated by Aizen for his power.
> Many manga have these themes, Naruto is not different, that does not make it shit, unless all the others are as well because of this.


It's really not a good comparison, seeing as the ones you mention really don't give a flying fuck about their lineage.
Luffy mentions his dad is the goddamn Dragon oh so casually and never saw fit to boast about it. Even more so, it actually makes things harder for him, he became the target of the WG and especially Akainu much quicker because of that. As for the Haoshoku Haki, Ace apparently had it too. It didn't take him places, exactly...
Meanwhile, Ichigo: "Holy shit my dad's here too huh? He's a shiniga- oh look back to the fight." That's to be expected i suppose.
And you're wrong about Edward, he and his brother were great alchemists by their own efforts, i suppose the only argument you could make is that they would never have been able to do it if their father didn't have a bunch of alchemy books in his room.
Naruto however has now become this enormous douchebag with a messiah complex because of his "Two Suns" (that were never around, but then they suddenly were and everything was wonderful!). Even after Itachi warned him about being so conceited, he still ended up jumping right in it, declaring himself to be the best around. And considering that this is a prophecy since pretty much the beginning of all ninjutsu, it is on a far greater scale than any of the others, that this one kid will bring _light to the world!_.
Naruto's sequel must be him going to other planets bringing peace and love to all the people! We shall call it Naruto: The Space Ninja Jesus-sama Chronicles!


Superstars said:


> Naruto manga has the best fights out of the big three, period.


Even Kenpachi vs Giriko, the latest fight in Bleach, is better than most of what has happened during this war...
Ass Rasengans, seriously...


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## vegeta2002 (Sep 19, 2011)

If Kishi would've ended the manga after part 1 or Kakashi gaiden, a lot more people would think that Naruto was the greatest manga ever.


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> I definitely don't think Naruto is the worst shonen manga, for example everything that has happened in the last two arcs of Katekyo Hitman Reborn is worse. I recall once reading a manga called DNA2 (that's squared), that was quite a bit of a disappointment aswell...
> 
> It's really not a good comparison, seeing as the ones you mention really don't give a flying fuck about their lineage.
> Luffy mentions his dad is the goddamn Dragon oh so casually and never saw fit to boast about it. Even more so, it actually makes things harder for him, he became the target of the WG and especially Akainu much quicker because of that. As for the Haoshoku Haki, Ace apparently had it too. It didn't take him places, exactly...
> ...



I dont see anything conceited in Naruto's actions after Itachi's words, he had Gaara's and Ooniki's help in taking down Mu and he had the help of rubber guy and info from Hatachibi to take down 3rd Raikage. 

Naruto has not bragged about his lineage, he has only brought up his parents when prompted by others, when kakashi asked, when Raikage insulted Minato.
Naruto's reaction to his parents was normal, I will admit its not what I wanted, I wanted him to rage at them since they kinda screwed him over. He punched Minato then moved on, he let his mother off completely but this was after the hatred purging. That's my view, the other is hating dead chakra imprints of parents who mean well is a waste of time.

The saving the world theme is in many manga, including the great ones, they all go down that road eventually, if its a battle manga.

What I mean by using FMA examples is that many Main charters have a special lineage. Luffy may not be the only one with the special Haki, but he is one of the few, its its super rare. Just like Naruto has a bijuu, but others have them to, they still die, and others have Sharingan and still die.

I disagree with the Naruto is a douchebag with a messiah complex that I have been hearing. Naruto IS the chosen one, that's what many believe that's what the old ass frogs and giant future toad told him that's what J-man told him that's what Minato told him that's and that is one of the reasons kyuubi is inside him, its not a complex, its a fact of the manga, he is the chosen one. Its people like Nagato, Madara, and Danzo who think they are the only ones who can save the world and screws everyone over to do it, are the ones with the complex. People believe in Naruto because his is not a douche like others who kidnap 3 year old, sacrifice people, invade, murder,lie etc.

Naruto is not the worst manga ever, its not a horrible manga, Its a great manga with problems.


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## αce (Sep 19, 2011)

Can I just sum this up?

Is this the best manga out? Hell no.
Is it the worst? Not even close.

It's a decent read for a casual manga reader. And it's fairly interesting considering you start caring about the characters during the brilliance of part 1.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 19, 2011)

summers said:


> Pain threw his emotional baggage all over Konoha "nuke-na Tensai!"



Pain was garbage from the outset and still one of Kishimoto's greatest mistakes as a writer.



> Madara is going to brainwash the world cause his butthurt over Hashirama and the Senju.



Madara doesn't let his butthurt define him the way Naruto, Sasuke, Nagato, etc. do, and he provides a strong antagonistic presence to keep the plot moving forward. He's not a great villain, but he's at least an adequate one.



> I do think the villains are interesting though. I also believe that team 7 is self destructive and take part in unhealthy co-dependent behavior. They, -Naruto, all fail as teammates.



No, Naruto has been a major part of that himself. His pseudo-godhood and enabling of Sasuke's bad behavior have made him unpleasant for a while now; I was glad when Itachi gave him a reality check and told him not to get so fixated on trying to be the hero.

I liked him better in part 1 when he was actually the underdog and still didn't take shit from anybody. He was also a lot less prone to crying/collapsing back then... Or when he did, the situation actually warranted that kind of reaction in some way.


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## Milliardo (Sep 19, 2011)

^ nobody likes reading that saviour shit over and again even if it is true. thats basically flaunting that naruto is the chosen one. naruto does come off as dick at timed when he acts like he can do whatever wants in a military where he is far down in command..  hes a shonen lead so course hes not going to kidnap people or sacrifice people for his cause..  


like some have said its not the worst manga but i would hardly call it the best..


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## Summers (Sep 19, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Pain was garbage from the outset and still one of Kishimoto's greatest mistakes as a writer.


That's the first I heard that, well I am no fan of him so, OK.



> Madara doesn't let his butthurt define him the way Naruto, Sasuke, Nagato, etc. do, and he provides a strong antagonistic presence to keep the plot moving forward. He's not a great villain, but he's at least an adequate one.



I like Madara as a villian, people call him faildara but I think his failure make him realistic and likable, as likeable as a villain can be anyways. I still think his butthurt defines him, all those years and he takes control of the kyuubi he can off Konoha, then he decides to help off the Uchiha, dude has a senju clone in his crib and on his arm and another one in next to his clone in the crib, and one as a ally, mans got problems.


> No, Naruto has been a major part of that himself. His pseudo-godhood and enabling of Sasuke's bad behavior have made him unpleasant for a while now; I was glad when Itachi gave him a reality check and told him not to get so fixated on trying to be the hero.


Not to the extent of others though, and for different reasons. I have  on this, so I can go on forever. For the quite sometime many were on board with the save sasuke plans and told Naruto he was the only one who could do it, then all of a sudden when sasuke went to far and it go to much for them to deal with they turned on sasuke and acted as if Naruto was a Naive child for trying to save someone they told him to save. Worst part is, they never caught sasuke not because Naruto and others were letting him go it was because they could not catch or defeat him. Sasuke always has someone protecting him or ahead in power, Oro, Madara, Hawk. Plus The rookies can run their mouths about how they will kill sasuke, but do you believe for one second that any of them are capable of doing so? I would love to see that play out. Naruto knows it. 

The rest of team 7 also take more responsibility because they knew about Oro and the curse seal and kept it from him until the end. Naruto shared his concerns about sasuke and his team, they did not follow.

Naruto is a hero though, in the eyes of Konoha, and if he wants to or not, he is the only one who can root out the Zetsu.


> I liked him better in part 1 when he was actually the underdog and still didn't take shit from anybody. He was also a lot less prone to crying/collapsing back then... Or when he did, the situation actually warranted that kind of reaction in some way.



He cant stay an underdog forever, his goal is to be Hokage. 

Wait! when did I lose my Mod-dome. FFFFFFuuuuuu!


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## CrazyAries (Sep 19, 2011)

This response ended up being longer than I thought it would. 



ZiharkXVI said:


> 1)  Underdog to Child of Prophecy:  Misunderstood to the nth degree.  Its a topic in and of itself, but the important point to walk away with is this:  Naruto is, and always will be the underdog.  Prophecy does not mean the future.  Prophecy is a prediction of what is to come.  There have been several candidates.  Jiraiya, Minato, Nagato, etc.  This Child of Prophecy merely means that someone predicted that someone, not necessarily Naruto, would rise to fill this heroe's shoes.  It just so happens to be Naruto - who was the underdog in every sense of the word.  Of course, we're coming to the very end of the manga, so he's no longer the weakest guy in the room.  At some point, he moved into hero status.  *But the point is, you can be both the underdog AND the child of prophecy.  They're not exclusive.*



Understood, but the problem that most have with Naruto's development in this department is that he did not make a convincing underdog after the end of Part 1.  Much had been lined up in his favor.  Naruto's father was Yondaime Hokage (which I and many others predicted anyway).  He was being instructed by his father's student and Sensei (for two and half years).  Most of the villagers began to accept and respect Naruto after he proved himself at during the Chunnin exams.  Sasuke recognized that Naruto made a number of improvements and Uzumaki showed that if he applied himself, he could improve exponentially.  He may take shortcuts, but there you have it .  Anyway, Naruto wanted to became Hokage and he was being put on the fast track in preparation for that role.  

I will make myself clear:  Those things did not bother me one bit.  In fact, I think that those were interesting elements of the story, but his development in the earlier sections of Part 2 looked a bit like a regression.  Yes, Jiraiya worked on Naruto's bijuu control, but it looked like Naruto did not learn much else during the timeskip.  Then, he an Team Kakashi were embarrassed by Sasuke during the second rescue attempt .  Later on, Naruto would have to be instructed every step of the way in the creation of Fuuton Rasenshuriken.  Despite his early life, Naruto was becoming more and more fortunate, so to many, it did not fit for Kishimoto to make Naruto the underdog.   

The introduction of Naruto's role of savior jumbles the picture even further.  The way that he became the child of prophecy and that others believe in him (like *ajinko* said) destroys any illusion of him being a true underdog.  Naruto has been granted a tremendous amount of power, and he already has the respect and support of the most important figures of the Alliance.   Whenever Naruto falters, it looks rather forced and inconsistent.



ZiharkXVI said:


> 2)  Kekkei Genkai are rare.  But lets face this straight up.  We read a manga.  If I were to talk about this in reality, I would compare it to a newspaper.  We're going to hear about the heroes, the special ones in a war.  Tis no different.  In fact, its likely we read more and more about those with special powers - since they are the most likely to be problems in the war.  Its not that there are necessarily MORE of them, but that they are at the forefront of the fighting.  The statistical imbalance is easily explained by the fact that when war comes, you want your best to be taking charge and fighting.  Those usually include people of special abilities.  Remember, there are a boatload of ninja.  Only one can use black lightning.  But we spend our time with that one cause he's naturally going to be a leader.
> 
> Additionally, there were a lot of kekkei genkai users in Part 1, it just wasn't identified as such back then.  People like Udon/Sakon, Kimi, Kidomaru.  3 of the 5 were KG users.  Statistical imbalance?  Sure!  But that's cause they happen to be really strong, and thus more likely to serve Orochimaru.



The thing about kekkei genkai was that only two existed in Konohagakure, which is the largest hidden village.  We saw other clans with *clan techniques*.  Now, if the Mist had a witch hunt against those with kekkei genkai, it seems that there had to be more than two clans with those bloodline limits.  The thing is, though, that means that those nin were taken out of the picture, so kekkei genkai were rarer still.

I do not have much of a problem with new kekkei genkai being introduced.  The vibe I get from complaints, though, is that those traits are being introduced in place of some techniques that can be learned and countered (acquired skills) and that they represent unfair advantages.  In a related note, more and more people have been shown to have Sharingan (most were boosted), and we have read complaints about those.



ZiharkXVI said:


> 3)  Clever, but not very simple.  I mean, nobody has yet explained to me how a body can fit into an ice mirror.  Even in Kishi's manga, its a stretch.  Really makes even less sense that it makes Haku fast.  I always come back to the first arc to center my opinion on the manga, and I just accepted it back then.  I still just accept alot now - unless its been told to me before IN THE MANGA that it was impossible.  People act like Muu's particle tech just doesn't fit.  Or that the Raikage's stamina/shielding is way too convenient.  *shrugs*  If you're going to start questioning it now, you cannot tell me ice mirrors make any more sense.  My only guess, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, is that those people are upset over something else.  The evolving and new techniques are just smokescreens for the underlying complaint:  I don't enjoy the manga anymore.  Not a reason.



Of course, Haku's technique is complicated when one thinks about it, but there are a few factors in play that deal with the reception of Ice Mirrors.  They were well-received because they were shown in the introductory arc, Haku's abilities were rare, and there was a good amount of character development for Haku.  He was not an ill-conceived character with tremendous powers, but he was gentle soul devoted to Zabuza and who reminded Naruto of the importance of protecting loved ones.  Haku really served as a weakness for his own jutsu, come to think about it.


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Sep 19, 2011)

Anyone saying this manga is the best out of all of them has never read JJBA. That's a fact.


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## Mangetsu126 (Sep 20, 2011)

naruto manga = fantastic, if only it had a wider plot tho.


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## crystalblade13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Actually, it's precisely the opposite.
> 
> Almost anything having to do with Team 7 these days is basically unreadable.
> 
> It's the villains and secondary characters who still keep things interesting and don't just throw their emotional baggage all over the place.



for me, naruto has only had one low point: the kage summit. he just got REALLY over-emotional very quickly, and resolved this issue in a wierd way (meeting a phsychotic sasuke).

since then (the island arc and onward), i've loved everything about him. he's been funny, protective of his friends, and with a little coaching- trusting towards his friends. his arrogance has always existed, i really see no difference in this department from the series beggining. i mean, narutos even over that to an extent now, with itachi's help.

unlike sasuke and sakura, i think naruto has been a very good character recently- in fact, i really cant think of anything fail worthy that sasuke/sasukra have done since the kage summit either, so thats a plus too.


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## crystalblade13 (Sep 20, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Even Kenpachi vs Giriko, the latest fight in Bleach, is better than most of what has happened during this war...
> Ass Rasengans, seriously...



Nope, not in my opinion. Bleach always comes down to " yayz i shoot more lazorz!" or " ooz, i hits harder!". most battles in this war have involved strategy or teamwork. Naruto's at least using smart variations on his rasengans( chakra arm combinations, using opponents attacks against them). I honestly think the only fight that the kenpachi one is better than is the ambush fight. And thats only because of all of the annoying sasori trolling.


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## Cjones (Sep 20, 2011)

Naruto no where near the worst manga, but it feels like a lot of wasted potential. Which Kishi seems to be trying to fix somewhat in this war introducing more major figures that make up the history of the ninja world which I'm enjoying somewhat.

I also believe some characters are/were wasted potential wise. Danzo/Tsunade immediately  come to my mind.


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## Moon Dread (Sep 20, 2011)

sasuke wasn't absolutely selfish at all. his motives are all motivated by his desire to revenge which he wouldn't done if all he care is himself. the only problem with him is that his judgment is clouded by hatred that he couldn't distinguish reality anymore.

so my choice would be orochimaru. not one person did he felt any compassion. he was always about himself. using comrades and resources for his own benefits and pleasure.


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## Coldhands (Sep 20, 2011)

Sasuke's whole character is about _his_ revenge. His clan was killed which caused _him_ to suffer loneliness and sorrow. He wants peace for _himself_ and tries to achieve that with revenge.

But in the end it's not going to give him peace, the hatred will consume him completely. 

_"In the end, those who tasted revenge were not satisfied... it ended in tragedy. You'll only hurt and suffer more... Even if you are successful in your revenge, all you'll be left with is emptiness."_ -Kakashi


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## Saunion (Sep 20, 2011)

CrazyAries said:


> This response ended up being longer than I thought it would.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This, so much. The problem with Naruto's current role isn't so much its nature, because everyone reading this manga from the start should have figured out that was the probable outcome. I mean this has always been at its core an underdog coming of age story, about the kid who's at the bottom of the foodchain and slowly rises to the very top of the world. That's not bad in itself, actually most of the other shonen including One Piece basically tell the same story. 

The problem is the way he got to this role. They say what matters isn't the destination but the journey. And the journey was so lacking that the destination that has now been reached feels incredibly underwhelming. What should have been rewarding for the readers, giving a real sense of accomplishment and closure, now feels like a forced, artificial and trite outcome. 

That's because Kishimoto's pacing and ability to develop his characters in a consistent way are sub par. First of all most of Naruto's original drive disappeared as early as during the Chuunin exams when he beat Neji and the stadium cheered for him. You could argue that he already had overcome his initial struggle right here, with him already making friends among Team 7 and the rookies, as well as the villagers now viewing him in a positive light. This had the unfortunate consequence to force Kishimoto to give Naruto a new main goal so that he could milk his manga for all its worth, and that's where the Sasuke obsessive bromance came from. 

It's not just a matter of character drive either, Naruto's power progression barely makes any sense. He goes off to train with Jiraya for two years... And he comes back with a bigger rasengan and a worse mastery of his Kyuubi trump card? I understand Kishimoto wanted to reset the manga so that somehow Naruto ends up chasing after Sasuke's strength like in part 1, but it's just terrible in terms of development as it contradicts a bunch of previously established elements, such as Naruto's ability to learn high level techniques in a short time (Kagebushin, boss summoning, Rasengan, Sage Mode). It also made Jiraya look like an utterly incompetent fool for not telling Naruto about the elemental nature of ninjutsu or noticing that he could use Kagebushin to speed up his training. 

Finally, Kishimoto didn't even bother to show us in more details how the villagers opinion of Naruto evolved during the course of part 2. He had the poor taste to address it by having Iruka make a passing comment ("hey Naruto, the villagers are talking about you a lot recently!") and through that awful Ebisu flashback during the Pain invasion, which might be the very worst example of bad writing in the manga.

So Naruto becoming the savior and a hero everyone admires and can count on isn't the problem. That's what everyone reading this manga should have expected, and frankly speaking if you're butthurt about this you're an idiot. The problem is it doesn't feel credible and satisfying because of everything that came before. And that's why I said this manga was disingenuous: because it's supposed to be fiercely idealistic and incite a feeling of optimism in the readers, but all it does is provoke cynical reactions because of how badly written it is.


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## HawkMan (Sep 20, 2011)

^The whole thing, but especially this. 


Saunion said:


> So Naruto becoming the savior and a hero everyone admires and can count on isn't the problem. That's what everyone reading this manga should have expected, and frankly speaking if you're butthurt about this you're an idiot. The problem is it doesn't feel credible and satisfying because of everything that came before. And that's why I said this manga was disingenuous: because it's supposed to be fiercely idealistic and incite a feeling of optimism in the readers, but all it does is provoke cynical reactions because of how badly written it is.



Daaaaamnnn. I'd rep if I could.


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## Garfield (Sep 20, 2011)

Sharingan Squid said:
			
		

> If your view of this manga is truely influenced by the views of others, then you're not really all that capable of independent thought.


Not a very scientific thing to say  Opinions are and frequently need to be collective. 

Don't like Naruto much personally, but that's only because it's so damn boring when it comes to matter that interests me.


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## Addams (Sep 20, 2011)

> Can I just sum this up?
> 
> Is this the best manga out? Hell no.
> Is it the worst? Not even close.
> ...



This. Exactly my feelings about that manga.


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## Tengu (Sep 20, 2011)

The manga is good, but it could have been much better, i would have stick to normal shinobis, not so much nuke.


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## Rokudaime (Sep 20, 2011)

Spartan1337 said:


> Anyone saying this manga is the best out of all of them has never read JJBA. That's a fact.



I read JJBA and I still think Naruto is better manga than JJBA. So, what will you do now?


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## Nathan Copeland (Sep 20, 2011)

Part 1 > Part 2


any naruto fan would know this

i re read the Zabuza and Haku arc and that was truly a great manga arc

and plus old kid naruto was fuckin hilarious and he was cooler then this fuckin hyperventilating piece of shit we have now a.k.a ssj goku naruto


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## RasenShuriken 7 (Sep 20, 2011)

Agreed with OP, Naruto is a great manga. 

If its so "flawed" why do people keep reading it? 
"Cuz i wanna know what happens nexz" is a shitty excuse. If Naruto were "bad" you wouldn't care what happened next and quit.


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## Soca (Sep 20, 2011)

Rokudaime said:


> I read JJBA and I still think Naruto is better manga than JJBA. So, what will you do now?





mind=blown


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## ZE (Sep 20, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Pain was garbage from the outset and still one of Kishimoto's greatest mistakes as a writer.



Then what part of the manga do you like? 
If Pain was garbage, that makes the Pain invasion arc garbage (and Pain vs Jiraiya). 

If arcs that focus on team7 are garbage, that makes the Gaara rescue arc and the penis arc garbage. 

So practically all part two is shit if at least three of the arcs we had are garbage. The makes the manga that you just said is one of the best, garbage.


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## Summers (Sep 20, 2011)

Still, with all its problems its still one of the best manga out there.


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## Addams (Sep 20, 2011)

> So practically all part two is shit



Indeed it is.

Haha, sorry, out of contest quote but it was too hard to resist.


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## ZE (Sep 20, 2011)

You have people here saying Naruto is one of the best mangas out there and at the same time admitting the main characters are shit, that some of the villains are shit, and that some of the fights are shit... Congratulations, Kishimoto. You have the best fans ever. I'm sure Oda is jealous.


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## Soca (Sep 20, 2011)

RasenShuriken 7 said:


> Agreed with OP, Naruto is a great manga.
> 
> If its so "flawed" why do people keep reading it?
> "Cuz i wanna know what happens nexz" is a shitty excuse. If Naruto were "bad" you wouldn't care what happened next and quit.



There's a thing called hope. when you've been a fan for so long you end up keeping your hopes up for a change or setting things back to the way they were there's nothing weak about having hope


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## Addams (Sep 20, 2011)

> If its so "flawed" why do people keep reading it?



It's one chap per week, free online and it takes like 2 minutes to read.

Why people shouldn't read it ? Don't think it really says a lot about how pleased people are with this stuff honestly.

The excellent first part of the manga hooked a LOT of people. People still willing to spend 2 minutes per week to check what is going on.

For example, i pretty much gave up on One Piece some months ago, meaning that i don't buy any OP books any more, but i'm still reading the new chapter when it comes out anyway, just to see.


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## Target (Sep 20, 2011)

The mangas good but you mentioned pairings way to much. Yout imagining them


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## creeper523 (Sep 20, 2011)

I remember the days I used to post ridiculously long post of why I liked Naruto.  Seems pointless nowadays.  I am over 30; I enjoy the manga.  

As someone who actually completed college level English courses*, I kind of find it funny that a lot of posters don't really understand what "bad writing" entails.

"Bad writing" on the internet= "I don't like it personally; so, it's bad writing." 

The story is enjoyable.  The day it stops being fun, I will move on, as should everyone who actually has more important things going on in their lives....


*English was not my major; but, I have enough of an understanding to realize that Kishi is using a lot of the basic plot devices.  Even his story outline is pretty obvious to someone with at least a high school level English course.  That's why it is so laughable that people take their complaints so seriously.  The fact is, if creating a story that was liked by wide range of people was easy, then everyone would be an accomplished author.


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## Summers (Sep 20, 2011)

Addams said:


> It's one chap per week, free online and it takes like 2 minutes to read.
> 
> Why people shouldn't read it ? Don't think it really says a lot about how pleased people are with this stuff honestly.
> 
> ...



Not buying it man, pun so intended. There is a lot of manga out there that I can read for free and suck, I dont read them, and I dont even remember their names so I cant go back to read them. If the manga is so horrible that its its not worth reading or buying then dont read or buy it. The manga may no longer be one of the best in their eyes its still good enough that people keep coming back for more, even if its hurts.


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## Saunion (Sep 20, 2011)

creeper523 said:


> I remember the days I used to post ridiculously long post of why I liked Naruto.  Seems pointless nowadays.  I am over 30; I enjoy the manga.
> 
> As someone who actually completed college level English courses*, I kind of find it funny that a lot of posters don't really understand what "bad writing" entails.
> 
> ...



You should probably have taken logic classes too, because apparently you don't know what a straw man, an argument from authority and an appeal to popularity are.


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## Milliardo (Sep 20, 2011)

summers said:


> Not buying it man, pun so intended. There is a lot of manga out there that I can read for free and suck, I dont read them, and I dont even remember their names so I cant go back to read them. If the manga is so horrible that its its not worth reading or buying then dont read or buy it. The manga may no longer be one of the best in their eyes its still good enough that people keep coming back for more, even if its hurts.



well i don't think most are saying its the worst  manga ever bro.. though it seems most think bleach is yet still read it. 

you can relax nobody is saying it will go down as one of the worst mangas ever.


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## hitokugutsu (Sep 20, 2011)

Manga is still good and enjoyable 

Some people whine too much. Of course there are gonna be thing that you frown upon, but this is a series that has been running 10+ years and it still manages to impress me most of the time on weekly bases, unlike other Shonens like Bleach or One Piece


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## Soca (Sep 20, 2011)




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## DoflaMihawk (Sep 20, 2011)

It's a very good manga. Obviously not One Piece level good, but still good nonetheless.


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## Summers (Sep 20, 2011)

Saunion said:


> You should probably have taken logic classes too, because apparently you don't know what a straw man, an argument from authority and an appeal to popularity are.



"In politics perception is stronger than reality"
-Candy crowley,CNN


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

CrazyAries said:


> This response ended up being longer than I thought it would.
> 
> 
> 
> Understood, but the problem that most have with Naruto's development in this department is that he did not make a convincing underdog after the end of Part 1.  Much had been lined up in his favor.  Naruto's father was Yondaime Hokage (which I and many others predicted anyway).  He was being instructed by his father's student and Sensei (for two and half years).  Most of the villagers began to accept and respect Naruto after he proved himself at during the Chunnin exams.  Sasuke recognized that Naruto made a number of improvements and Uzumaki showed that if he applied himself, he could improve exponentially.  He may take shortcuts, but there you have it .  Anyway, Naruto wanted to became Hokage and he was being put on the fast track in preparation for that role.



The way you phrase this is just incorrect in my opinion.  It is true, Naruto was trained by some of the best.  His father was Minato (why that matters in any in real sense, I'm sure I don't know).  Here's what I do know, however.  Kakashi, Jiraiya, Sasuke, the village...they were forced to deal with Naruto.  Kakashi didn't see much hope in training a fool.  Sasuke had no respect for a fool.  Jiraiya despaired as nobody would ever match Minato.  The village laughed and despised Naruto.  You forget that Naruto was always....special.  He had the 9tails in him for goodness sake.  Its only natural that he mix in with great people - there was no fast-tracking that was intentional for Naruto as a ninja.  It was mere coincidence that people like Jiraiya and Yamato needed to first control the kyuubi.  What happened as a result of actually meeting Naruto is another thing entirely.

And this brings me to my ultimate point for this.  Naruto was the underdog.  There was no retcon to make it not so.  The point is, Naruto changed that destiny.  He wasn't going to just be the idiot.  And although he didn't fully realize it, he wasn't going to just be the jinchuuriki.  He became Naruto, the hero of the village.  It was not handed to him on a platter.  I find this idea that people were making him the Hokage almost ridiculous.  Where in any of the characters' actions was that the reason?  You think Tsunade sent Naruto to the Sand just because she was prepping him for Hokage?  Or that Jiraiya first picked up Naruto because he saw Yondy material?  Its stated in the manga that this was just not true.  If anything, he was on the fast track to be a jinchuuriki.  A tool.  



CrazyAries said:


> I will make myself clear:  Those things did not bother me one bit.  In fact, I think that those were interesting elements of the story, but his development in the earlier sections of Part 2 looked a bit like a regression.  Yes, Jiraiya worked on Naruto's bijuu control, but it looked like Naruto did not learn much else during the timeskip.  Then, he an Team Kakashi were embarrassed by Sasuke during the second rescue attempt .  Later on, Naruto would have to be instructed every step of the way in the creation of Fuuton Rasenshuriken.  Despite his early life, Naruto was becoming more and more fortunate, so to many, it did not fit for Kishimoto to make Naruto the underdog.



I have literally no idea what you are talking about.  As I saw it, Naruto was becoming less and less fortunate.  The more people began to see greatness in him, the more of a target for more and more powerful enemies he became.  Sasuke is just one of those powerful enemies - I don't believe there's any specific reason why Sasuke could not have become an even better ninja.  I guess if you really hate Sasuke it would be a problem, but it wasn't a bad storytelling technique.  The timeskip dissapointment is an old one, and hardly worth painting the whole of Part 2.  Besides, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  You act like its regression that Naruto has a very low learning curve.  That's just Naruto's character.  When it comes to training, he has very little attention span, and its clear he doesn't pick up on this stuff very quickly.  He learns in his own way, and by doing.  But that has been consistent throughout the entire length of the manga. 



CrazyAries said:


> The introduction of Naruto's role of savior jumbles the picture even further.  The way that he became the child of prophecy and that others believe in him (like *ajinko* said) destroys any illusion of him being a true underdog.  Naruto has been granted a tremendous amount of power, and he already has the respect and support of the most important figures of the Alliance.   Whenever Naruto falters, it looks rather forced and inconsistent.



That is what I disagree with the most.  As I said, prophecy is NOT predestination.  Prophecy doesn't change who you are.  Naruto was granted that power from the very beginning of this manga.  He's been the underdog because of his attitude and educational failings.  He's not the most intelligent ninja on the battlefield.  He's just not.  He can be clever when he puts his mind to it, but a lot of times Naruto's reactionary techniques are not very complex or thought out.  But this idea that because of a prophecy Naruto suddenly had to be the great one is just not true.  This prophecy, just like any prophecy, can no more force Naruto into being someone else than it can force him to eat.  The illusion is clearly your misunderstanding of that word.

And as for faltering, what....should we change Naruto's actual character to match Shikamaru?  Cause he's not Shikamaru.  This only goes to prove my point though that the prophecy does not retcon Naruto's character in the slightest.  Kishi remains true to who Naruto is.  He can be incredibly stupid in a fight, and then come up with a surprise.  I believe the word "surprising" is consistent throughout all of the manga when talking about Naruto.



CrazyAries said:


> The thing about kekkei genkai was that only two existed in Konohagakure, which is the largest hidden village.  We saw other clans with *clan techniques*.  Now, if the Mist had a witch hunt against those with kekkei genkai, it seems that there had to be more than two clans with those bloodline limits.  The thing is, though, that means that those nin were taken out of the picture, so kekkei genkai were rarer still.
> 
> I do not have much of a problem with new kekkei genkai being introduced.  The vibe I get from complaints, though, is that those traits are being introduced in place of some techniques that can be learned and countered (acquired skills) and that they represent unfair advantages.  In a related note, more and more people have been shown to have Sharingan (most were boosted), and we have read complaints about those.



Kekkei genkai are unfair advantages, but again, that's why we see so much of them.  Naturally, they are the ninja who are going to be killing the most, fighting on the forefront, and where the story will take us to.

The sheer number of kekkei genkai?  Again, another example I'll give you.  Zabuza arc.  How many ninja were there?  6.  How many had kekkei genkai?  3.  Half.  Even in the very first arc, with Kakashi's explanation of kekkei genkai and it being rare, we had half of the ninja involved sporting them.  Not to mention one secret jinchuuriki.



CrazyAries said:


> Of course, Haku's technique is complicated when one thinks about it, but there are a few factors in play that deal with the reception of Ice Mirrors.  They were well-received because they were shown in the introductory arc, Haku's abilities were rare, and there was a good amount of character development for Haku.  He was not an ill-conceived character with tremendous powers, but he was gentle soul devoted to Zabuza and who reminded Naruto of the importance of protecting loved ones.  Haku really served as a weakness for his own jutsu, come to think about it.



Who cares about it being the intro arc?  Just because its an intro arc, does that mean the close to the end arc cannot have a new technique?  This is what confounds me.  At what point did Kishi draw the line and say, "This is it.  Ninja must conform to the rules laid out previously, or not at all."  That's how all shonen manga are, lol.  In fact, most stories are like that as well.  The creativity doesn't end in the beginning.  If you gave me an example of an "ill-conceived" character, I might understand, but I once again - have no idea what you are talking about.

I suppose you're upset at a character like Paku, or someone like Dodai in the recent chapter.  They don't have to be fleshed out to be acceptable characters.  They serve a purpose, and its not the same purpose as Haku.


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## cnorwood (Sep 20, 2011)

Part 1 was pretty good. then part 2 just threw away everything that made part 1 good and turned it into a shitty dbz knockoff


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## ovanz (Sep 20, 2011)

Saunion said:


> I'm comparing it to other weekly shonen series. Compared to stuff like Air Gear from Oh! Great for ex, Naruto has average art. And I don't even like Oh! Great's artstyle that much, but he still has a level of technical mastery that far surpasses that of Kishimoto, despite having the same schedule.



Agree, they are far better drawing mangas than naruto, art is not a main point in this series by far, compared to the art of berserk, vagabond, air gear, and most mangas pale in comparision of the great drawings of kinikuman :
this attack

I wonder what the fans of the first chapters of part 1 think of the diferent drawing in part 2. In my case i started watching the anime, then started reading the manga in the start of part 2, where the anime end, and start the crapfest of anime filler (naruto/jiraiya returning and gaara's capture) and later to catch up i read some part 1, and looked like two diferent artists.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 20, 2011)

Naruto is turning into Kekkaishi for me, it started off really good. 

It took a couple bad turns, but still had so much potential. In the end kekkashi was a ok manga with tons of wasted potential, it could of easily been in my top ten favorite mangas of all time. 

Naruto right now is going down that road, and to be honest even with a perfect ending i think its to late to save this mange, from being a little above average for me.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

Ya know, I think I've said this before, but literary taste is really the most truthful answer to this question, and I don't know why people don't just give it more often.

This is the real truth of the matter.  You either like it or you do not.

I like it.  I think its clear.  Some people hate it, and if they just said that - what's there to discuss?  People have varying tastes in manga.  People even have evolving tastes in manga.  Some manga they like early on, but its just not doing it for 'em now.  Ya know, you don't even have to have a reason.

That's what's most silly to me in these topics.  The reasons.  I perfectly understand someone coming in and saying, "Nah, I just don't like it anymore.  I don't get any pleasure out of reading the chapters."  THAT is honest.  What is confusing is when they think they need to come up with a reason why its not their fault.  Like, its not just their particular interest in manga, but its Kishi's fault.  Its Naruto's fault.  It's the prophecies fault. Someone screwed up.

Screwing up is so subjective when you talk about manga.  So very subjective.  In my last post, I spent way too long explaining why I disagree with just about every view he has.  Nobody screwed up.  Maybe someone has something against prophecy, or wants less special techniques, but I do not, and I enjoy more special techniques.

I liked it better when someone would just say, "Its not for me." and then left.  Now people want to prove to you its not for anyone, and that they should hate it.  I do think of One Piece from time to time.  Gads I hate that manga.  I find it stupid, boring, scatterbrained, and childish.  But I don't go and post on the One Piece board, "Oda screwed up.  Oda is an idiot.  Or One Piece is shoddy writing."  Obviously, its not, and Oda must do something right.

Its just not for me, and I leave it at that.


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## principito (Sep 20, 2011)

*The manga didn't need to be THIS FLASHY...*

I know new characters have been introduced... and power scale has gone up a lot lately with characters making MASSIVE jutsus left and right...

Some really ridiculous stuff has appeared regarding speed or durability... some jutsus can just change the entire landscape... chakra arms and eye techniques that can change reality? SERIOUSLY?

Some even say that given this power inflation some characters like Hiruzen dont get the recognition they deserve....

But I dont think the manga needed to have all this shit and characters didn't need all that crap to become super powerful... proof?

Take a look at Minato and Itachi....

No matter how bad the power scale goes up... they always come on top of everybody on tiers list... and no matter if they face characters from part 1 or part 1 in the manga.... Minato and Itachi own them... how?

WITH ONE JUTSU AND A COUPLE OF KUNAI.

Kishi took the Dragon Ball Z way trying to make the characters moe powerfull.... but the truth is that two of the most powerful characters in the entire Manga are resl ninjas and not duper sayans.

I put my two cents on Minato or Itachi over any of the kages any time


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## navy (Sep 20, 2011)

principito said:


> I know new characters have been introduced... and power scale has gone up a lot lately with characters making MASSIVE jutsus left and right...
> 
> Some really ridiculous stuff has appeared regarding speed or durability... some jutsus can just change the entire landscape... chakra arms and eye techniques that can change reality? SERIOUSLY?
> 
> ...



I dont get why people say this.. 

Itachi has one of the most overpowered haxxed aresnals in the manga.

Finger Genjutsu...

Susano+ Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword
Seriously Kishi? What was the mirror for especially? 

Amatsaru...

Tskuyomi....


----------



## LS20 (Sep 20, 2011)

Saunion said:


> It's not just a matter of character drive either, Naruto's power progression barely makes any sense. He goes off to train with Jiraya for two years... And he comes back with a bigger rasengan and a worse mastery of his Kyuubi trump card? I understand Kishimoto wanted to reset the manga so that somehow Naruto ends up chasing after Sasuke's strength like in part 1, but it's just terrible in terms of development as it contradicts a bunch of previously established elements, such as Naruto's ability to learn high level techniques in a short time (Kagebushin, boss summoning, Rasengan, Sage Mode). It also made Jiraya look like an utterly incompetent fool for not telling Naruto about the elemental nature of ninjutsu or noticing that he could use Kagebushin to speed up his training.



I'd like to add that it's not even just his power progression at the start of part 2 (I for one believed he had basically everything he needed on that end, no hax training needed) but his MENTAL progression at the start of part two (or lack there of). He actually came back from the 2.5 years more clueless than ever. That's what I didn't get, his battle temperament and over-all tactics should have been much improved. When he had that little sparring session with Kakashi I thought that's what we were getting because his timing and thinking was pretty good as noted by Kakashi. But to my dismay when they started actually going on missions he started doing very dumb things and loosing his cool at the drop of a hat constantly. It was annoying, people wouldn't have even noticed that he didn't come back with much after training with Jiraiya had he actually shown he could handle himself and show how much his mentality had grown when in an actual battle. But because of all the dumb things he kept doing and almost getting himself killed multiple times it only amplified the fact that he seemingly didn't mature much at all with Jiraiya.

That all then resulted in Naruto running around doing a whole lot of nothing repeating the same things about what he was going to chapter upon chapter. It was too late by the time Kishi tried to bring him back to the fore-front and it ended up not making sense. Hence, all these super-man SSJ power-ups (which is what really has killed this manga amongst other things) he got just to prove to us somehow he went from being an above average nin to top-shinobi in a week and expect us to buy it.

It's like for some reason Kishi got really lazy with Naruto's character or just lost interest in him. The manga seems like it's "featuring" him more than it is really about him.


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## HolyHands (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> Ya know, I think I've said this before, but literary taste is really the most truthful answer to this question, and I don't know why people don't just give it more often.
> 
> This is the real truth of the matter.  You either like it or you do not.
> 
> ...



Never gonna happen. Fans and haters alike are vocal and will always love to talk about the quality of a story. Fans will go on about how awesome it is and haters will do the opposite. If you really want people to stop being vocal about their dislike of a story, then naturally it follows that you should be against people being vocal about a story they do like, because most hate is often just a reaction to people liking something.

But really, you should just stop making a big deal out of it. Discussion of a work's quality, whether good or bad, is just part of life.


----------



## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

Not actually the point Holyhands.  My dislike of these discussions is when people start making reasons up.  Specifically blaming things and never really examining themselves.

See what I mean?

THe biggest part of any like/dislike equation is the reader, but its the last thing on anybody's mind.

Instead I discuss the straw man, "Prophecy."  I should just cite to a dictionary first, since it really doesn't mean what people think it means.  But then they get into a diatribe about how prophecy just completely changed Naruto.  I mean, that's not really subjective...cause it hasn't.  So what we have here is a made up reason, mayhaps developed from a misunderstanding of the definition.

My suggestion in the last post was, "Did ya ever think it might just not be your cup of tea?  And that there's nothing REALLY wrong with it?"

Additionally, there is a vast difference between dumping on something you don't like and talking about something you do.  I mean, we can have discussions on what you don't like.  I'm having one now.  I don't believe for a second that its a real reason.  As I said, I think it goes beyond some measly complaint about too many kekkei genkai.  If I were writing a literary critique, "Too many special ninja" would not be a very strong position for critiquing.  And its probably not the real reason.  More than likely, there is something deeper that annoys people about this manga.  I won't pretend to know.  I know why I like the manga.  I know when I see a silly criticism.  The deeper flaws....well....I have guesses.  If you want I can talk about them.

BTW, HolyHands, I didn't make a big deal of it.  If you check, this topic was massive before I even began posting.  There's my two cents, lol.  Take it or leave it.


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## HolyHands (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> Not actually the point Holyhands.  My dislike of these discussions is when people start making reasons up.  Specifically blaming things and never really examining themselves.
> 
> See what I mean?
> 
> ...



Of course the prophecy changed Naruto, undeniably so. It changed the focus of the story and took things into a different direction. That's pretty much a textbook example of change.

The way a story presents something is infinitely more important that what it's actually presenting. Think of it in real life terms: let's say I have a friend and I'm talking about him to a girl. If I tell the girl all about my friends positive traits, then she'll end up thinking that my friend is a nice guy. Likewise, if I tell the girl about that one time that my friend acted like a real douche, then she'll think that my friend is a horrible person. My friend's personality is exactly the same in both situations, but the way I presented them caused the "audience" to come to two different conclusions. And if that analogy doesn't work for you, then here's a simpler one: If there's a "nice" person, yet all people ever see is him acting like a jerk, is he still a nice person?

That analogy is pretty similar to how so many people are upset over the whole prophecy deal. Has Naruto's personality changed? Not really, but the way the story presents it gives people a totally different feel of Naruto's character. Before, the story didn't really give a damn about Naruto's lineage or genetic qualities, instead it purely focused on his strength of will, courage, and kindness. Nowadays the story doesn't really give a shit about Naruto's actual personality, instead it's all about his lineage. Son of the Fourth, son of the jinchuuruiki, descendent of the rikudo sennin, child of prophecy, student of the legendary Jiraiya, great genetic makeup that allows him to train at super-high efficiency, and so on and so forth. Whereas before, the focus on Naruto's character was 80% personality and 20% lineage, now it's 80% lineage and 20% personality. You may disagree on those numbers, but to deny there was any kind of change at all is being ignorant.



> Additionally, there is a vast difference between dumping on something you don't like and talking about something you do.  I mean, we can have discussions on what you don't like.  I'm having one now.  I don't believe for a second that its a real reason.  As I said, I think it goes beyond some measly complaint about too many kekkei genkai.  If I were writing a literary critique, "Too many special ninja" would not be a very strong position for critiquing.  And its probably not the real reason.  More than likely, there is something deeper that annoys people about this manga.  I won't pretend to know.  I know why I like the manga.  I know when I see a silly criticism.  The deeper flaws....well....I have guesses.  If you want I can talk about them.



Actually "too many special ninja" would be a good position to take on a literary stand-point. If you build something up as special and rare, and then suddenly everyone starts to have it, then it loses it rarity, and thus, loses much of its appeal.

If anything, you're trying too hard to look for a "deeper" reason why people might dislike something. The answers really are a lot easier than you might think.


----------



## sheshyo (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> I liked it better when someone would just say, "Its not for me." and  then left.  Now people want to prove to you its not for anyone, and that  they should hate it.  I do think of One Piece from time to time.  Gads I  hate that manga.  I find it stupid, boring, scatterbrained, and  childish.  But I don't go and post on the One Piece board, "Oda screwed  up.  Oda is an idiot.  Or One Piece is shoddy writing."  Obviously, its  not, and Oda must do something right.
> 
> Its just not for me, and I leave it at that.


 
 I think it's important to note that saying, "it's just not for me" is  quite different than saying, "it's poor writing." My point being,  there's indeed some objective basis in differentiating a well written  story from a poorly written one. 



ZiharkXVI said:


> As I said, I think it goes beyond some measly  complaint about too many kekkei genkai.  If I were writing a literary  critique, "Too many special ninja" would not be a very strong position  for critiquing.  And its probably not the real reason.



"Too many special ninja" put in proper context would actually be very  apt critique for "Naruto". Back in part 1, special bloodlines and bijuu  powers were few and far between, and they were gradually/meticulously  developed; which kept the readers intrigued and created a sense of  anticipation for whats to come. 

Now, hordes of new characters/abilities/skills are practically thrown on  screen with little thought, or plot relevance, only to be discarded  with equally unsatisfactory end. Thus, you can see how "special" can  lose its meaning and turn boring really fast.


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## Soca (Sep 20, 2011)

this is still going eh


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

Really, I was not aware that too many special ninja is a writing defect.  Lol, grading would not be hard on such a critque paper.

Subjective analysis.  Go back to the drawing board student.  I'm not interested in your personal likes, dislikes.  If you have something to say about the writing, say it.  Get to the point.  What is really WRONG with it, and don't explain to me something that someone else can say, "Well, I really like all of the special ninja.  I like seeing new techniques, etc."

Besides, um, Sheshyo - didn't I already go over this?  Part 1: First Arc.  Ratio of Kekkei Genkai ninja.  3 out of 6.  Was that your few and far between?



HolyHands said:


> Of course the prophecy changed Naruto, undeniably so. It changed the focus of the story and took things into a different direction. That's pretty much a textbook example of change.
> 
> The way a story presents something is infinitely more important that what it's actually presenting. Think of it in real life terms: let's say I have a friend and I'm talking about him to a girl. If I tell the girl all about my friends positive traits, then she'll end up thinking that my friend is a nice guy. Likewise, if I tell the girl about that one time that my friend acted like a real douche, then she'll think that my friend is a horrible person. My friend's personality is exactly the same in both situations, but the way I presented them caused the "audience" to come to two different conclusions. And if that analogy doesn't work for you, then here's a simpler one: If there's a "nice" person, yet all people ever see is him acting like a jerk, is he still a nice person?
> 
> ...




No, I'm not looking.  My guess has always been personal preference, which nobody wants to admit to.  The "deeper" reasons that make up personal preferences?  Those might make for a more interesting discussion.  Its clear however that its not the stuff talked about here.

Again, 3 to 6.  First arc.  Kekkei genkai ninja.  Add in one jinchuuriki and you have the majority special.  That setting the tone for the manga?  What's new, lol?

Getting back to the straw man, prophecy.  Perception WAS changed.  Especially the reader's perception.  I think this might touch upon the nub of what annoys readers.  But Naruto the character did not change.  That is just not the case.  He's been the same boy who promised to change the world all of those years ago - just with a few more goals.  

Before, the story DID give a darn about Naruto's special qualities.  Lol, he was the kyuubi boy remember?  How much more unique can you get?  Naruto wasn't just some ordinary little boy in some ordinary little story.  He was the monster.  The one the 4th chose to seal the 9tails into.  Anyone with half a brain could have told you where that was going.  And it showed itself in the very first arc.  Naruto and Sasuke beaten, but Naruto reacts with the 9tails and BAM! Haku's on ice.

Nowadays, the lineage is what's confirming what Naruto has worked for all along.  Where is it in the manga that ignores who Naruto is?  And how strange would it have been for a child not to be directly influenced by his heritage?

You give me these (and I'm trying not to sound facetious) 80/20 numbers like they're manga fact.  What are you talking about?  I dunno about you, but I see a lot of Naruto's person.  I see him evolving, dealing with new situations and emotions as they come due, and seeing him react.  We've delved into his past now.  Which is natural!  And frankly desirable.  How odd would it have been to have Naruto breeze through his life and never given a rats rear end who his parents were, and how he came to be the kyuubi boy.  You knew there was a story there, and now that we've found out (egads, like I said, it should have been obvious) suddenly nothing Naruto says or does matters?  Since when?

To prove this, he very nearly gave up.  He's standing there with his father in ether world and he's like, "Its hopeless.  I can't do it."  If this notion of being chosen is all that matters, then I suppose his choice after speaking with his father didn't matter much at all?  His time with Jiraiya?

Or how about Sasuke?  You buy too much into Madara's destiny talk.  Naruto doesn't care about some predestined match.  Sasuke is his friend, and he'll give it all up to save a friend.  So much for prophecy forcing Naruto's character to BE anything.  This was the same Naruto from way, way back when who would risk his life for his friends.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to critique something, I expect better.  Not something forced like prophecy ruining Naruto's character.


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## sheshyo (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> Really, I was not aware that too many special ninja is a writing defect.  Lol, grading would not be hard on such a critque paper.
> 
> Subjective analysis.  Go back to the drawing board student.  I'm not interested in your personal likes, dislikes.  If you have something to say about the writing, say it.  Get to the point.  What is really WRONG with it, and don't explain to me something that someone else can say, "Well, I really like all of the special ninja.  I like seeing new techniques, etc."



It's a writing defect in this case, because it takes the _special_ out of _special_ _ninja_, and trivializes its significance and effect it has on the plot.



> Besides, um, Sheshyo - didn't I already go over this?  Part 1: First Arc.  Ratio of Kekkei Genkai ninja.  3 out of 6.  Was that your few and far between?


I'm not only talking about bloodlines specifically, but also special skills/abilities/jutsus/ninjas/power, etc..they were for the most part presented very methodologically in part 1; as oppose to the random abundance that's found in part 2.


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## ajinko (Sep 20, 2011)

the thing that keeps this manga going is its plot is still intact and brings us back every week to read it. which is not the case in bleach nor fairy tail. 

however unlike one piece, in my opinion kishi doesn't do justice to his characters except a chosen few. it's a great manga if ur a sasuke fan.


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## HolyHands (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> Really, I was not aware that too many special ninja is a writing defect.  Lol, grading would not be hard on such a critque paper.
> 
> Subjective analysis.  Go back to the drawing board student.  I'm not interested in your personal likes, dislikes.  If you have something to say about the writing, say it.  Get to the point.  What is really WRONG with it, and don't explain to me something that someone else can say, "Well, I really like all of the special ninja.  I like seeing new techniques, etc."
> 
> Besides, um, Sheshyo - didn't I already go over this?  Part 1: First Arc.  Ratio of Kekkei Genkai ninja.  3 out of 6.  Was that your few and far between?



Quit being obtuse. The literary criticism is blatantly obvious here. When people say "too much special ninja", what they're basically saying is "The author introduced X as something that's really rare, yet now it's ridiculously common." This is a perfectly fine criticism to have of any story. Things that are appealing because they are rare will obviously lose that appeal if it stops being rare.

Just look at the story as a whole for example. When it first started out in part 1, we only knew a handful of bloodline limits: sharingan, byakugan, Haku's ice release, and Kimmimaro's bone technique. Bloodline limits started to lose their luster when the amount started to increase to riduculous numbers. Now we have:

Sharingan (normal)
Sharingan (MS)
Sharingan (EMS)
Sharingan (Kakashi-version)
Byakugan
Haku Ice Release
Kimimaro Bone Tech
Rinnegan
Elemental Releases (blaze release, dust release, scorch release, lava release, etc.)

Then of course the story itself gradually became far more bloodline-focused. It wasn't so bad when it was just Orochimaru who wanted it, but then the Akatsuki eventually became almost entirely bloodline-focused thanks to Madara and the fact that the Uchiha pretty much hijacked the plot. Before the story had bloodline limits as a neat little side story. Nowadays, bloodlines ARE the story. When you get down to it, the tension in the story is basically about Madara seeking an ultimate bloodline to control the world, Sasuke achieving a super-bloodline to be his perfect weapon, and the Uchiha storyline in general is all about trying to gain more powerful bloodlines. They're pretty much the bread and butter of the story now.



> Getting back to the straw man, prophecy. Perception WAS changed. Especially the reader's perception. I think this might touch upon the nub of what annoys readers. But Naruto the character did not change. That is just not the case. He's been the same boy who promised to change the world all of those years ago - just with a few more goals.



Perception is far more important than Naruto's character itself. So when you yourself agree to a change of perception, you're pretty much agreeing with my argument. Like I said before, how the story presents something to us is far more important than what it's actually presenting.

Take Sakura for example. People call her pairing fodder because all she cares about is romance between her teammates. Is this "really" true? No. We all know Sakura has family, friends, hobbies, and etc. But if the story never focuses on those things, then the readers aren't going to care either.

So when we go back to Naruto it's the same thing. Naruto will always be a hard worker no matter what, but the story focus has changed. It's less about Naruto himself and more about him succeeding more due to things outside his control. Prophecy this, lineage that, fate this, talent that. Naruto has obviously been somewhat special, but there was an "everyman" appeal to him that the story really focused on, and that focus has died out somewhat ever since the prophecy crap started. That shift of focus is not only thematically inconsistent, but it's frustrating to read for those who were perfectly fine with how Naruto was before. It'd be like if Lee suddenly found out that he has a super-bloodline that solves all of his problems. Even if Lee's personality stays the same, it's still a huge kick in the teeth of what his character used to stand for.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

sheshyo said:


> It's a writing defect in this case, because it takes the _special_ out of _special_ _ninja_, and trivializes its significance and effect it has on the plot.
> 
> I'm not only talking about bloodlines specifically, but also special skills/abilities/jutsus/ninjas/power, etc..they were for the most part presented very methodologically in part 1; as oppose to the random abundance that's found in part 2.



Okay.  Explain.  Wouldn't what you're suggesting have made special ninja "not special" in the very first arc?

Methodologically.....whatever does that mean?

More explanation?  Cause I'm still waiting for the Ice Mirrors explanation.  Bring it up in a theory thread, cause that's the best anyone can do.

Time spent?  I guess what you might be looking for is some character explaining their jutsu as they're using it like they tended to do a lot in Naruto.  That's fine.  Some of it I don't think needs a lot of explanation.  Gari's explosion jutsu seems fairly self-explantory.  I don't need the play-by-play of Haku jumping between ice mirrors, becuase Haku's jutsu was partly based upon trickery.  Some Kekkei Genkai's are based just on the ability.  There's no subtelty to a jutsu like Iron sand.  Its clear what it can do just from seeing it used.


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## αce (Sep 20, 2011)

This thread made me like it less.
Congratulations guys.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

HolyHands said:


> Quit being obtuse. The literary criticism is blatantly obvious here. When people say "too much special ninja", what they're basically saying is "The author introduced X as something that's really rare, yet now it's ridiculously common." This is a perfectly fine criticism to have of any story. Things that are appealing because they are rare will obviously lose that appeal if it stops being rare.
> 
> Just look at the story as a whole for example. When it first started out in part 1, we only knew a handful of bloodline limits: sharingan, byakugan, Haku's ice release, and Kimmimaro's bone technique. Bloodline limits started to lose their luster when the amount started to increase to riduculous numbers. Now we have:
> 
> ...



*sigh*

Still not ridiculously common.  Its just that a story will center on those who have the most power to be major players.  This is why in the very first arc, 4 special ninja are involved.  The statistical imbalance is explained merely by what the story wishes to focus in on.  And this IS NOT NEW.  Even back then, it was focused in on that stuff.  You liked it then, but suddenly its too much.

The clan of the Uchiha is pivotal to this story.  I think its clear that it was going to be, but for those of you surprised, I'm not sure how this ruins the manga in the sense of "making something rare common".

And...um...no, I believe it was argued that prophecy changed Naruto.  Maybe in the reader's mind it did.  People react to the idea of prophecy differently it would seem.  But not the character.  If you review the earlier posts, there was comments about Narutoism, etc.  You came in and basically chastised me for disagreeing.  If you're not taking up their points, then you need to differentiate yourself.



♠Ace♠ said:


> This thread made me like it less.
> Congratulations guys.



Lol.


----------



## HolyHands (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Still not ridiculously common.  Its just that a story will center on those who have the most power to be major players.  This is why in the very first arc, 4 special ninja are involved.  The statistical imbalance is explained merely by what the story wishes to focus in on.  And this IS NOT NEW.  Even back then, it was focused in on that stuff.  You liked it then, but suddenly its too much.
> 
> The clan of the Uchiha is pivotal to this story.  I think its clear that it was going to be, but for those of you surprised, I'm not sure how this ruins the manga in the sense of "making something rare common".



I liked it back then because the powers back then were still much more reasonable. The sharingan was still the sharingan that simply copied techniques. There was no crap like mangekyou sharingan, eternal mangekyou sharingan, sharingans that shoot fire, sharingans that summon spirits, sharingans that cook you dinner, sharingans that do your taxes, etc.

It's not just a Naruto problem either. In DBZ for example, the super saiyan was at its best when it just a rare legend. Even hardcore fans agree that it got out of hand when we started getting super saiyan 2, super saiyan 3, super saiyan 4, ultra super saiyan, and so on.

The Uchiha clan focus is also the same. I have NO problem with Uchiha being important to the plot. What I DO have a problem with was the Uchiha becoming so important that it's consumed the entire story and became pretty much the only thing that mattered anymore. "Too much of a good thing" is very much a valid complaint regarding anything.

So when you say "But you had no problem with it back then", my response is "Yea, because it didn't get so ridiculously out of hand back then." Power levels of any kind need to handled with care, because they can go batshit pretty quickly if you don't reign it in.


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## Soca (Sep 20, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> This thread made me like it less.
> Congratulations guys.



repped for truth


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## sheshyo (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> Okay.  Explain.  Wouldn't what you're suggesting have made special ninja "not special" in the very first arc?
> 
> Methodologically.....whatever does that mean?



No. Because the few bloodlines that were introduced were presented and developed well. Collectively, the respective skills/ninjas/bloodlines were not overexposed, and were especially relevant to the plot. Unlike the recent part 2. 



> More explanation?  Cause I'm still waiting for the Ice Mirrors explanation.  Bring it up in a theory thread, cause that's the best anyone can do.
> 
> Time spent?  I guess what you might be looking for is some character explaining their jutsu as they're using it like they tended to do a lot in Naruto.  That's fine.  Some of it I don't think needs a lot of explanation.  Gari's explosion jutsu seems fairly self-explantory.  I don't need the play-by-play of Haku jumping between ice mirrors, becuase Haku's jutsu was partly based upon trickery.  Some Kekkei Genkai's are based just on the ability.  There's no subtelty to a jutsu like Iron sand.  Its clear what it can do just from seeing it used.


I'll just leave you with an analogy to get my point across. Certainly, many of us enjoys specials effects and action sequences, but notice with movies like the recent the Transformer series, too much of it without a good plot backing it results in a bad movie. I suppose you could still enjoy the movie if you limit your expectation to just special effects and action, but its still a bad movie regardless.


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## Milliardo (Sep 20, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> repped for truth



repped for realizing the truth.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

Well, no argument about the Sharingan being explained to death.  But that's cause the Uchiha are actually important to the plot.

Not so much ice mirrors.  Oh sure, we know what it can do.  We figured out the trick. During that battle, that was what made it good.  We knew there was a trick, and Naruto and Sasuke had to figure it out.  Didn't really spend a lot of time on the ice KG though.  

But take a kekkei genkai like Kimimaro.  No tricks there.  The "action" is what mattered.  That's the KG user's style.  It doesn't need a long analysis because in effect, its simple.  And thus its more interesting to see them in action.  Actually, even better in the anime, just a personal preference.

I think you might be honing in on the type of Kekkei Genkai.  But even that has some qualifiers in terms of time.  The Sharingan is still well explained even today (again, important to the plot).  Same with Mokuton - which Shodaime just spammed in Part 1.

I disagree entirely with Part 1 being more developed.  They were when they served a purpose.  And when the effect is all that mattered, then it was simple.  Sakon's genetic transfusion tech was just a simple explanation.  All we needed to know was what was going on, and we wasted no further time on it.  A jutsu like Mizukage's acid jutsu is very similar.  But a jutsu like Diedara's clay bombs are developed at length.

So what's changed?

I mean, my favorite arc is still Zabuza's arc.  Don't confuse me for a mass action addict.  But sometimes a detailed development would be rather pointless.  How much do I care to know about Gari's explosion jutsu?  Not much.  I'm actually glad we don't spend a lot of time fighting him.  Leave it to the anime to make a fluid fight.



Colt said:


> repped for realizing the truth.



Repping for trolling....interesting....


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## Soca (Sep 20, 2011)

constant bickering isn't really changing the opinions of anyone tbh, everyone seems to have made a strong decision to stick with their arguments so all these massive paragraphs are actually pretty useless


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

We were discussing something.  Your enjoyment from that discussion, or the results of such a discussion, were not a concern I had.  I dunno if others were worried about it.

I can't think of one discussion in the Naruto forum that is actually useful, so there ya go.


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## LS20 (Sep 20, 2011)

^ Agreed mon frere. I for one have actually enjoyed the discussion you three have been having, good stuff.

It has mostly summed up my issues with the manga as well.


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## LeeUchiha (Sep 20, 2011)

Saunion said:


> This kind of thread is honestly as pointless as these "why is Sakura hated!!!" ones.
> 
> Naruto is a poor work of fiction. It's not the worst thing out there, but it's thematically incoherent, disingenuous, melodramatic in the worst sense of the word, poorly paced, averagely drawn, both pretentious and naive, not very creative, not particularly funny and most of all, it's stretched so thin you can see through it. It should have ended 400 chapters ago.






Saunion said:


> No, because it was very, very good for the first... roughly 200 chapters. I was listening to a manga podcast the other day and the guy said that the Zabuza and Haku arc was one of the best arcs he ever read from any shonen. I actually agree. It's just that it never kept that level of quality.



Agreed. The direction Naruto part II took is completely different from what some fans were expecting based on part I, and embittered fans are the worst. I think it'd be enlightening for many to do a side by side comparison of Naruto part I to part II, like those hilarious reviews made by Red Letter Media comparing Star Wars original trilogy to the prequels.

And what an interesting thing to say OP, that we should not have expectations because it's for entertainment only. I think that comment perfectly illustrates a major source of tension within the fandom-- people who want to see this as a semi-legit fictional work worthy of character analysis and thematic critique, and powertards who say stuff like "this surpasses mangas like Dragon Ball Z for sure". If this were Bleach, I'd agree, as I never had any expectations for it other than mindlessness. Here's the thing though-- despite being a shonen, Naruto part I gave you interesting concepts to think about and explore. Based on part I, a fan could reasonably expect that Kishi would further develop these ideas.

 Instead, the mangaka changed his mind somewhere, turning Naruto solely into a battle manga. In the process he abandoned busloads of characters (rookies), derailed the main ones (Naruto fainting, and poor, poor Sakura), contradicted himself thematically while pushing for new questionable values (Naruto cheerleading for Sasuke), and flushed the story down the shitter (Moon's Eye Plan revealed why?? _Still_ no explanation for Madara's bout of insanity here). I get it if you're only reading Naruto to see how it matches up with other crap in the battledome, but realize that, based on part I and even some of part II, some of us have felt betrayed by most of these new developments. We've continued reading it because we were holding out hope the manga would return to its roots, but the realization has now come: for us, the _other_ Naruto fans, there will be no dawn.


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## ZiharkXVI (Sep 20, 2011)

You exaggerate when you compare to the trainwreck that was the Star Wars prequels.  Those were disasters, lol.  Literal disasters.

I think I left the theater ill.  Even stuff I don't like doesn't usually make me feel bad for even watching it.  I felt ashamed.

Actually, it would be most interesting to hear an analysis, but only if I got to hear someone who liked the manga still.  There are quite a few who do you know.  There must be some reason they do.


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## CrazyAries (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> The way you phrase this is just incorrect in my opinion.  It is true, Naruto was trained by some of the best.  His father was Minato (why that matters in any in real sense, I'm sure I don't know).


 
What is incorrect about my opinion?   My main point was that things were laid out for Naruto since his birth.  For many, that undercuts Naruto's role as an underdog.

Well, if Naruto was not the son of Yondaime Hokage, he would have had little ? if any ? chance of becoming a jinchuriki in the first place.  From the backgrounds of jinchuriki we have seen (like Naruto, Gaara, and Kirabi), it turns out that they had connections to their respective kage.



ZiharkXVI said:


> Here's what I do know, however.  Kakashi, Jiraiya, Sasuke, the village...they were forced to deal with Naruto.  Kakashi didn't see much hope in training a fool.  Sasuke had no respect for a fool.  Jiraiya despaired as nobody would ever match Minato.  The village laughed and despised Naruto.  You forget that Naruto was always....special.  He had the 9tails in him for goodness sake.  Its only natural that he mix in with great people - there was no fast-tracking that was intentional for Naruto as a ninja.  It was mere coincidence that people like Jiraiya and Yamato needed to first control the kyuubi.  What happened as a result of actually meeting Naruto is another thing entirely.




Of course they would have to deal with their jinchuriki.  Minato made his choice for a reason, and Hiruzen respected that.  Naruto needed to stay around to keep the kyuubi out of the wrong hands and be trained in order to eventually control the bijuu and protect himself.
Kakashi accepted his role as the sensei of Team 7 and even recommend it to take the Chunnin Exams during its first year.  He did take a special interest in Sasuke, but that was mainly due to the Sharingan and the shared lightning affinity.  If Kakashi wrote off any of his students, it was not Naruto, but Sakura.
No, I never forgot that Naruto was special.  His specialness has been amped up in Part and that is the crux of the problem for many.
As we would later find out, Jiraiya was Naruto?s godfather.  He was not given that role without his consent, nor was he forced to assume that role.  It took him thirteen years to actually meet Naruto, and that was by chance.  Jiraiya expected that training Uzumaki would be a challenge, but he quickly grew to believe in the boy and pass on the goal of world peace.



ZiharkXVI said:


> And this brings me to my ultimate point for this.  Naruto was the underdog.  There was no retcon to make it not so.  The point is, Naruto changed that destiny.  He wasn't going to just be the idiot.  And although he didn't fully realize it, he wasn't going to just be the jinchuuriki.  He became Naruto, the hero of the village.  It was not handed to him on a platter.  I find this idea that people were making him the Hokage almost ridiculous.  Where in any of the characters' actions was that the reason?  You think Tsunade sent Naruto to the Sand just because she was prepping him for Hokage?  Or that Jiraiya first picked up Naruto because he saw Yondy material?  Its stated in the manga that this was just not true.  If anything, he was on the fast track to be a jinchuuriki.  A tool.



But, people were making Naruto Hokage.  Those who knew him and cared for him supported him.  Jiraiya trained Naruto because of the godfather/godson relationship, the connection to Yondaime, the understanding of Naruto?s goal to save Sasuke, and the stated goal to surpass the previous Hokage.  

When Yondaime made his son a jinchuriki, it was not just to make him a tool.  On numerous occasions, it has been stated that ninjas are more than just tools.  In fact, Minato gave E a lecture on this very thing, as regards to Kirabi.  It has been established that Minato made his decision regarding Naruto out of love () and in the hopes that the boy would be able to end the threat that Madara posed.  That is it and Naruto accepted his role especially after the talk with his mother.




ZiharkXVI said:


> I have literally no idea what you are talking about.  As I saw it, Naruto was becoming less and less fortunate.  The more people began to see greatness in him, the more of a target for more and more powerful enemies he became.  Sasuke is just one of those powerful enemies - I don't believe there's any specific reason why Sasuke could not have become an even better ninja.  I guess if you really hate Sasuke it would be a problem, but it wasn't a bad storytelling technique.  The timeskip dissapointment is an old one, and hardly worth painting the whole of Part 2.  Besides, it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.  You act like its regression that Naruto has a very low learning curve.  That's just Naruto's character.  When it comes to training, he has very little attention span, and its clear he doesn't pick up on this stuff very quickly.  He learns in his own way, and by doing.  But that has been consistent throughout the entire length of the manga.



We will disagree on this.  I see Naruto as have a net-positive in fortune.  Even though Akatsuki did target him, how fast did it take for that organization to be gutted after its introduction into the story ?  Also, more emphasis was being put on Naruto?s quest to save Sasuke than him worrying about his own safety.  Deidara actually had a choice between going after Naruto?s search party or Sasuke at one point, but he chose the latter, only to be pushed to use a suicide move.  That is fortunate for Naruto.  Furthermore, Teams 7 and 8 were looking for Itachi, who eventually crossed plans with the MC.  If Itachi actually took his job for Akatsuki seriously, who knows what would have happened.  When the time to face Pain came, Deva Path could not use Shinra Tensei, and the other five bodies were taken out in quick succession.  When Naruto almost released the kyuubi, Yondaime appeared and restored the seal.  Planning on Yondaime?s part went into that, but it was fortunate for his son.  When Naruto decided not to seek revenge against Nagato or Konan, there was no guarantee that the two would leave only to help Akatsuki further.  Instead, Nagato resurrected the fallen villagers.  That was a measure of good fortune.  I even count the fight with Danzo and Sasuke to work out in Naruto?s favor, as Danzo would have served as a real challenge to Naruto?s ideals and would have wanted to control Konohagakure?s jinchuriki.

In the end, yes, Naruto will need some measure of luck in order to change his word.  Luck is often an underestimated ingredient in leadership.  Naruto said that he wanted to end the caste system in the Hyuuga clan.  Guess what?  The members of said clan have already begun to improve relations.  Naruto is supposed to usher in a period of peace, but Madara has already united the world against him to an effect.  When the time comes, the load for the savior will have been lessened, but the cooperation of others would have ultimately been needed for there to be true peace.

*(Continued do to character limit...)*


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## CrazyAries (Sep 20, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said:


> That is what I disagree with the most.  As I said, prophecy is NOT predestination.  Prophecy doesn't change who you are.  Naruto was granted that power from the very beginning of this manga.  He's been the underdog because of his attitude and educational failings.  He's not the most intelligent ninja on the battlefield.  He's just not.  He can be clever when he puts his mind to it, but a lot of times Naruto's reactionary techniques are not very complex or thought out.  But this idea that because of a prophecy Naruto suddenly had to be the great one is just not true.  This prophecy, just like any prophecy, can no more force Naruto into being someone else than it can force him to eat.  The illusion is clearly your misunderstanding of that word.



This brings me to the point where I think that Naruto really changed and stopped being a believable underdog:  He lost that chip on his shoulder.  He was gritty and defiant because of the treatment he received.  His attitude and educational failings were largely overtaken by the end of Part 1.  We were shown that when Naruto really applied himself, the results were exponential and that gave him positive recognition.  If he still faced any form of resistance after that, it was mostly due to the disagreement with the Sasuke situation or the level of danger that Naruto was willing to face.  For both (evetually) all Naruto would need to do is display a particular level of might (or speed).



ZiharkXVI said:


> And as for faltering, what....should we change Naruto's actual character to match Shikamaru?  Cause he's not Shikamaru.  This only goes to prove my point though that the prophecy does not retcon Naruto's character in the slightest.  Kishi remains true to who Naruto is.  He can be incredibly stupid in a fight, and then come up with a surprise.  I believe the word "surprising" is consistent throughout all of the manga when talking about Naruto.



Of course, Naruto is not Shikamaru.  However, the Naruto of the past (and in Chapter 555) had a charisma and sufficient level of intelligence in battle.  I feel that the meeting with Nagato and Itachi was a regression.  In the same fight where Naruto used his chakra arms to break out of Banshou Tenin, he forgot that Nagato knew of the Rasenshuriken and could absorb ninjutsu. 



ZiharkXVI said:


> Kekkei genkai are unfair advantages, but again, that's why we see so much of them.  Naturally, they are the ninja who are going to be killing the most, fighting on the forefront, and where the story will take us to.
> 
> The sheer number of kekkei genkai?  Again, another example I'll give you.  Zabuza arc.  How many ninja were there?  6.  How many had kekkei genkai?  3.  Half.  Even in the very first arc, with Kakashi's explanation of kekkei genkai and it being rare, we had half of the ninja involved sporting them.  Not to mention one secret jinchuuriki.



I will address this later.



ZiharkXVI said:


> Who cares about it being the intro arc?  Just because its an intro arc, does that mean the close to the end arc cannot have a new technique?  This is what confounds me.  At what point did Kishi draw the line and say, "This is it.  Ninja must conform to the rules laid out previously, or not at all."  That's how all shonen manga are, lol.  In fact, most stories are like that as well.  The creativity doesn't end in the beginning.  If you gave me an example of an "ill-conceived" character, I might understand, but I once again - have no idea what you are talking about.



Who doesn't care about it being an introductory arc?  It is only natural to look at a work being comparing its first part or sections to subsequent parts or sections.  If one reads the first chapter of a book, it may contain a hook that keeps the readers intriqued.  At the end, many readers digest the entire book and see how well the ending fits the path set out from the beginning.  For an example that is closer to the week-by-week storytelling of an mangaka, seasons of television shows are compared to the first or first two.  In many cases, the first seasons set precedents - not exactly for the types of episodes that will be made, but the overall quality of storytelling, character development, emotion, and focus on the main character(s).

Now, in the case of Naruto:  of course, the kekkei genkai introduced in the first arc were awesome, but they were balanced by the emotion, storytelling, and character development.  The progression of Zabuza and Haku's story and their deaths in particular were brilliantly done and overtook the focus on bloodlines.  Naruto showed a mix of anger, toughness, perserverance, and caring that stood out more than his hidden power.  Yes, I wanted to see Naruto use the kyuubi again, but the understanding at one point was that such a thing was rare.  Kekkei genkai were still rare, despite the number of people who had them in the first arc.  Numerous nin had been wiped out in Kiri, Haku died, and only Sasuke and his brother remained from their clan.  

Now this next part is not all my opinion but includes the impressions I get from some posts:  Of course, we would see more bloodline limits and more of kyuubi's chakra, but too much of that (and uber jutsu) at one time would run the risk of oversaturation.  I hazard to guess that that is one reason for some dislike Kyuubi Chakra Mode.  Another thing against these powers is that there seems to be no defense against most.  That goes against the notion of strategy.



ZiharkXVI said:


> I suppose you're upset at a character like Paku, or someone like Dodai in the recent chapter.  They don't have to be fleshed out to be acceptable characters.  They serve a purpose, and its not the same purpose as Haku.



Yes, I was thinking about Paku.  She, for example, was given a devastating power to mummify others, but no personality and no plot relevance whatsoever.

Oh, I need to correct you for this part in another post:



ZiharkXVI said:


> In my last post, I spent way too long explaining why I disagree with just about every view he has.



I am not a dude.


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## Palpatine (Sep 20, 2011)

Nathan Copeland said:


> Part 1 > Part 2
> 
> 
> any naruto fan would know this
> ...



Pretty much this. Also there was less Uchiha bullshit in part 1.


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## lathia (Sep 20, 2011)

It's an okay manga, it has its up and downs. I specifically like the tying of historic relevance/similarities. I'm not so much into pairings and what not. Matter of fact, I hate it being thrown in there. Alas, you can only deal with it since this isn't written by me. 

I'm really looking forward to the conclusion. I read it for what it is and enjoy it. More importantly, I like to pick up tidbits of hidden info previously used at the beginning of the manga with strong current relevance. That is really thrilling for me .


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## T-Bag (Sep 20, 2011)

Funkfreed said:


> Pretty much this. Also there was less Uchiha bullshit in part 1.



uchiha make the manga. Im not even kidding


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## Soca (Sep 20, 2011)

different clans made this manga, rookie hype made this manga, epic villains like orochimaru and zabuza made this manga lol uchiha weren't shit


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## FoxxyKat (Sep 20, 2011)

Don't want to be a hater, but I find the manga a little boring right now and why hasn't it ended yet?


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## T-Bag (Sep 20, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> different clans made this manga, rookie hype made this manga, epic villains like orochimaru and zabuza made this manga lol uchiha weren't shit



and as soon as uchiha stepped in they took away all the spotlighting making everything and everyone else obsolete. And you know it


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## Soca (Sep 21, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> and as soon as uchiha stepped in they took away all the spotlighting making everything and everyone else obsolete. And you know it



That's why I said they weren't shit before, the fucking hyuuga was said to be the most powerful clan in konoha and we got shit all from them. I have no problem with the uchihas but kishi put way to much emphasis on them as a whole when instead he shoudl have widened the views on the various other different clans and village relations instead of bringing them in at the last minute so we can not care about them. It's quite depressing.


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## Edward Nygma (Sep 21, 2011)

Gotta say its nice to see an anti-hate thread in here. This forum is consistently filled with animosity towards the very thing its dedicated to. Its kind of a downer.

Anyway i agree with a lot of what the op said, except the part about Naruto i honestly do hate him with all my heart and soul. But i hate almost all Shonnen protagonists, Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo, Goku, all of them.


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## Summers (Sep 21, 2011)

ZiharkXVI said what I have been looking for. Why does the manga not going in the direction some like= Kishi fails? instead of " I dont like were this is going" " this is no longer enjoyable". Cant it just be that whats being shown just doesn't jive with them.

Plus the people tend to still read the manga regardless of the harsh words for kish and the manga.


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## Soca (Sep 21, 2011)

Let the people express their feeling it's not like it matters to the author, the dude is rolling in cash why should fan opinions phase him lol


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## Tekkenman11 (Sep 21, 2011)

Fay said:


> No fandoms and anti-fandoms to influence me, no spoilers too brood over and no time to make up little fantasies on how *I* want the next chapter to play out I read chapter after chapter and I realized why exactly this manga is so popular worldwide: *for a shounen manga it's pretty damn good.*




This and only this.


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## ovanz (Sep 21, 2011)

Datenshi Uchiha said:


> Anyway i agree with a lot of what the op said, except the part about Naruto i honestly do hate him with all my heart and soul. But i hate almost all Shonnen protagonists, Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo, Goku, all of them.



Agreed. I don't like most shonen protagonist, maybe because most of them always have the same repetitive formula you know (there's are exceptions like the ones from JoJo's or FMA) : brawlers, can eat a lot, simple minded, orphans or don't know their parents in most cases and have spicky hair wtf. 

Compared to main characters in more adult series like Alucard (hellsing), Guts (berserk), Musashi (vagabond) they are more interesting because they don't have the problem in killing their enemies and don't go preaching about peace, friendship and bleh.


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## Soca (Sep 21, 2011)

the fuck preaches friendship


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## Palpatine (Sep 21, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> different clans made this manga, rookie hype made this manga, epic villains like orochimaru and zabuza made this manga lol uchiha weren't shit





Marcelle.B said:


> That's why I said they weren't shit before, the fucking hyuuga was said to be the most powerful clan in konoha and we got shit all from them. I have no problem with the uchihas but kishi put way to much emphasis on them as a whole when instead he shoudl have widened the views on the various other different clans and village relations instead of bringing them in at the last minute so we can not care about them. It's quite depressing.



Repped for truth.


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## Soca (Sep 21, 2011)

my dude^


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Sep 21, 2011)

ovanz said:


> Agreed. I don't like most shonen protagonist, maybe because most of them always have the same repetitive formula you know (there's are exceptions like the ones from JoJo's or FMA) : brawlers, can eat a lot, simple minded, orphans or don't know their parents in most cases and have spicky hair wtf.
> 
> Compared to main characters in more adult series like Alucard (hellsing), Guts (berserk), Musashi (vagabond) they are more interesting because they don't have the problem in killing their enemies and don't go preaching about peace, friendship and bleh.



Tsuna from KHR isn't like most shonen protagonists and has no problem killing those he considers enemies :33 . It doesn't all have to be from adult/mature series only.

And Ichigo's rather different from Goku, Naruto, and Luffy. He's more like the Nightwing of shonen manga. Hell, Ichigo has no problem in killing his enemies either.


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## ovanz (Sep 21, 2011)

Spartan1337 said:


> Tsuna from KHR isn't like most shonen protagonists and has no problem killing those he considers enemies :33 . It doesn't all have to be from adult/mature series only.
> 
> And Ichigo's rather different from Goku, Naruto, and Luffy. He's more like the Nightwing of shonen manga. Hell, Ichigo has no problem in killing his enemies either.



Yeah that's why i said:



			
				ovanz said:
			
		

> "Agreed. I don't like *most* shonen protagonist, maybe because *most of them* always have the same repetitive formula you know (*there's are exceptions* like the ones from JoJo's or FMA) : brawlers, can eat a lot, simple minded, orphans or don't know their parents in most cases and have spicky hair wtf. "



I didn't said all of them. And in ichigo case most of his enemies are already dead/spirits. He is recently fighting the humans soulbringers i doubt he is gonna kill them, probably soul society will.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 21, 2011)

Spartan1337 said:


> Tsuna from KHR isn't like most shonen protagonists and has no problem killing those he considers enemies :33 . It doesn't all have to be from adult/mature series only.
> 
> And Ichigo's rather different from Goku, Naruto, and Luffy. He's more like the Nightwing of shonen manga. Hell, Ichigo has no problem in killing his enemies either.


Doesn't mean he's a good character 

Almost 400 chapters, and he still has the same annoying reaction whenever someone mentions him as the boss of Vongola.


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## Summers (Sep 21, 2011)

Marcelle.B said:


> Let the people express their feeling it's not like it matters to the author, the dude is rolling in cash why should fan opinions phase him lol



He always win in the end not matter what anyone says. How much does he make?


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## Soca (Sep 21, 2011)

lol i don't give a darn


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## Addams (Sep 21, 2011)

> brawlers, can eat a lot, simple minded, orphans or don't know their parents in most cases and have spicky hair wtf.



That's the winning formula of the Shonen Jump for decades now. 

They're making shitload of money with that, don't expect them to change a thing.


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## ovanz (Sep 21, 2011)

summers said:


> He always win in the end not matter what anyone says. How much does he make?



I always wonder that, not only money by making the manga, but did he get roylaties by "videogames, animes, toys, cards, naruto porn, etc" or shonen jump take all.

I know people like Kazuki Takahashi (yu-gi-oh creator) makes a lot, because he also got royalties from the card game (wich he design some of the cards)
------------------

No one is arguing that kishimoto make more money than most of us lol, but the thread is about naruto compared to other mangas.


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## Summers (Sep 21, 2011)

ovanz said:


> I always wonder that, not only money by making the manga, but did he get roylaties by "videogames, animes, toys, cards, naruto porn, etc" or shonen jump take all.
> 
> I know people like Kazuki Takahashi (yu-gi-oh creator) makes a lot, because he also got royalties from the card game (wich he design some of the cards)
> ------------------
> ...



The bastard get money from the porn too!?
Well. I have my answer.


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## NineTailedJinchuuriki (Sep 21, 2011)

Completely agree. You basically listed the reasons that I love this series. Honestly, I think people on here become influenced by all the negativity that automatically forms on internet forums, hence the large amounts of nitpicking and complaining that tends to pop up on these forums


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## Addams (Sep 21, 2011)

Lots of nitpicking i think is caused by the fact that we can read this stuff weekly.

Tons of overreaction at the smallest thing each and every week.


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## Drums (Sep 21, 2011)

OP, I couldnt agree more. Good post. 
Btw, to people saying that the manga lost something from its first season, guys, as OP said, read the manga for what it is, a lot of things changed from part 1 and the type of manga the shippuden is is kinda different from its part 1( and i dont mean the shonen), just check the wiki or something, I think shippuden is also mentioned as drama, whilst part 1 isn't. So are you aware of what you are reading, or did you continue into part 2 thinking it 'd stay the exact same like part 1?Kishi has a story to tell, and he could do it without getting too dramatic and serious on part 1 but for part 2 where other things were introduced and a completely different plot(ninja kiddies dont just go out to missions anymore, trying to prove themselves) he needed to do it the way he does it now. Its the best way to give justice to this kind of plot he has atm. If you dont realise it then you're prolly reading the wrong manga, and you need to go back to part1.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 21, 2011)

summers said:


> He always win in the end not matter what anyone says. How much does he make?


Naruto sold 11,035,000 copies since January 2010 up to this year's August. Each volume costs 420 yen, so 4,634,700,000 yen (60,568,468 dollars). Taking away the 10% royalities (6,056,846 dollars), Kishi is left with 54,511,622 dollars - and that's before he pays for taxes, etc. This is the amount he got from volume sales only.
He still gets over 12,000 yen (120 dollars, the standart payment for mangaka, but since Kishi is a veteran, they pay him more, I don't know how much though).

So since this week's issue is number 42... multiply it by 17 pages and then by 120 dollars per page, he gets over 85,680 from the weekly manga.


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## Abanikochan (Sep 21, 2011)

This war is a bit too sugary to the point this arc is starting to become diabetic. No characters are getting hurt or killed. Only fodders which nobody really cares about. When it seems like something might happen it only turns out to be an asspull.


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Sep 21, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Doesn't mean he's a good character
> 
> Almost 400 chapters, and he still has the same annoying reaction whenever someone mentions him as the boss of Vongola.



That's because he simply doesn't wanna be the boss... He just wants to live a normal life away from such stressful things... Think about it, when it comes down to it, is being a boss of a mafia something one would want? One would have to worry about people assassinating you, cops(Or just law enforcement and the government lapdogs in general), not pissing off the wrong families, etc. I mean, okay, normal work can be already stressful, but it's not as stressful as being a mafia boss for one who has no experience in the mafia...

IMO, Tsuna's reactions are understandable and only fools who think they're the baddest mofos on this planet(And I do know people like that) would've foolishly and blindlishly accepted that... I, on the other hand would have the same reaction if I was in Tsuna's shoes as well. I have to admit, like him, I just wanna live an average life as well.



ovanz said:


> Yeah that's why i said:
> I didn't said all of them. And in ichigo case most of his enemies are already dead/spirits. He is recently fighting the humans soulbringers i doubt he is gonna kill them, probably soul society will.



Regardless, Ichigo did however have a strong intent to kill Tsukishima, who's not dead or a spirit. If he had the chance, he'd likely kill Tsukishima. 

And the correct name's Fullbringers.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 21, 2011)

This thread = Angry OPfans upset people like Naruto at certain points. 

Really the fact that a "this manga is good" thread becomes such a heated argument shows how convoluted the whole manga discussion scene of NF is.


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## Soca (Sep 21, 2011)

People were arguing before OP was even brought into the topic


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## Supa Swag (Sep 22, 2011)

StrawHeart said:


> OP, I couldnt agree more. Good post.
> Btw, to people saying that the manga lost something from its first season, guys, as OP said, read the manga for what it is, a lot of things changed from part 1 and the type of manga the shippuden is is kinda different from its part 1( and i dont mean the shonen), just check the wiki or something, I think shippuden is also mentioned as drama, whilst part 1 isn't. So are you aware of what you are reading, or did you continue into part 2 thinking it 'd stay the exact same like part 1?Kishi has a story to tell, and he could do it without getting too dramatic and serious on part 1 but for part 2 where other things were introduced and a completely different plot(ninja kiddies dont just go out to missions anymore, trying to prove themselves) he needed to do it the way he does it now. Its the best way to give justice to this kind of plot he has atm. If you dont realise it then you're prolly reading the wrong manga, and you need to go back to part1.




wut?

Part 1 is just as dramatic as Part 2.

There's really not much of a difference between the two.


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## BrokenBonds (Sep 22, 2011)

Truth be told, I like _Naruto_ a lot more than _Bleach_ and _One Piece_ (the two other mangas that I'm currently follow).

The only other manga that I liked more than _Naruto_ would be _Death Note_ and possible _Fullmetal Alchemist_.

I don't know, it's just the whole plot I can kind of relate to on a deeper level.


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## vegeta2002 (Sep 22, 2011)

Look at the numbers for this thread.


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## withering blossoms (Sep 22, 2011)

*laughs* If I didn't like Naruto, I wouldn't be here right now.


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## ♥Red♥ (Sep 22, 2011)

if you like Uchihas and Narutos and Sasukes bond as much as I ,this manga will be damn good for you


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## Addams (Sep 22, 2011)

Well, hard to deny that.

If you are a Uchiha fan then indeed this stuff is most probably going to be one hell of a glorious ride for you.

First and second part just the same.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 22, 2011)

I'm at a point where I accept Naruto & Sasuke.

For Naruto, Sasuke is a friend in trouble. And he wants to help him, by punching his face into a wall.


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## taeko (Sep 22, 2011)

I dislike the ''child of prophecy'' stuff and naruto interfering in battles. For the rest I'm pretty happy. I've been following naruto for 5-6 years, I must not expect serieus matters since it's just a shonen manga. Perfect Blue+Akira story twist plot in Naruto....ohh gosh pek


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## Ryder1000 (Sep 23, 2011)

Sorry man but this manga is fail right now, Naruto used to be a really good story which had depths in its plot, characters and etc but now it turned into a soap opera bullshit story where we get the SAME repetitive themes like faith, love, hatred, peace, believe in yourself, bonds & etc all these emotional sentamental crap are just fuckiing overused and repetitive as hell like Kishimoto is running out of ideas. Another thing I realize is that Kishimoto adds alot of pointless and annoying flashbacks just to kill time until he comes up with new random ideas for the future chapters, that shows that Kishimoto doesn't plan ahead and just add BS as it goes along.


This war has nothing but dissapointment fight scenes(except for Naruto & Bee vs Itachi & Nagato), Kishimoto ONLY makes things interesting and the fight scenes good only when Uchiha fights, he doesn't even care about the Konoha rookies(him skipping Tenten battle is proof of that), they have been ignored for the entire series and now he's using this war as a lame excuse, the final arc of his manga to develop characters, that shows how much of a mediocre writer he is, that's why I said that without Sasuke and the Uchihas, what's the point of reading this pathetic manga? 


The whole plot revolve around Uchiha and things and fights are only good when Uchiha are involved, this war is pointless and it's a troll, Kishimoto is just using this war to kill time until Sasuke & Naruto have their final battle and also Naruto vs Madara, fights with other characters being skipped, short fights, lame fights, contradictions, trolling and plot holes all over the place shows you that he isn't trying, he's bored of the Konoha rookies and everything else and is stalling time with repetitive flashbacks and etc to kill time until we see Sasuke fight Naruto.


Theirs no point for this manga to keep going, the Konoha rookies been ignored so long that what's the point of giving them character development anymore? Their not relevant anymore and the whole plot is about Sasuke & Naruto final confrontation, so where do these side characters play anymore? Rock Lee dream and determination DIED when it got to Shippuden, Neji's genius self died when it got to Shippuden and etc of other characters so WHAT'S THE POINT OF GIVING THEM A RANDOM CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IN THE WAR THAT PLAYS NO PART OF WHAT IS CURRENTLY GOING ON OR IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN IN THE MANGA? The entire manga is ruined, I only watch/read it for Sasuke, without that their's no point to this shitty series, I'm glad after this war Naruto is finally over, it's better that way, Kishimoto lost his story and doesn't know what he's doing anymore, *sigh*, oh well still got One Piece.


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## Brian (Sep 23, 2011)

I've been enjoying it a lot lately


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## Namikaze Naruto (Sep 24, 2011)

I am enjoying this manga a lot too, especially this war.
The themes are repetitive since they are the main background of this manga. I honestly don't think it is feasible to change the themes constantly, I mean, "peace, friendship, bond, love" are the main ideas of this manga, and anybody else expect Kishi to change them is quite lying to themselves.

I love the recent fights and can't wait to see the sharingan showdown time, only to later on laugh at it ;-)


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## Guru (Sep 24, 2011)

I just hate sasuke.


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## SleeplessNarc (Sep 24, 2011)

These are my thoughts and opinions, or, rather, a quasi-commentary on the series and the current War...

*Spoiler*: __ 



I am disliking the War so far and, well, most of the 3rd part. Initially, meaning the 1st and 2nd parts, the fights were simple with just enough surprises to keep your attention peaked. Plenty of taijutsu, some genjutsu and some ninjutsu; this was adequate enough and did not create excessively powerful characters or insanely ridiculous techniques. The first part of the 3rd stayed with this layout until Susanoo's first appearance and the introduction of the eternal sharingan. After the fight between Sasuke and Itachi, Kishi must have felt some need to make other characters unnecessarily strong, particularly the Uchiha. I believe the last great, interesting battle for Sasuke occurred when Taka fought Killer Bee. Even though this was after Susanoo's first appearance, Sasuke still showed his taijutsu, namely his speed, and ninjutsu skills, particularly his chidori variations, which will practically stop now that he has eternal sharingan. The battle between Danzo and Sasuke was, on some level, great, until Sasuke won. After battling the Kage and Bee, he still somehow survived a battle with another skilled veteran shinobi. After Kisame and Bee's fight, everything became rushed and unreasonable. On Turtle Island, the fight between Guy and Kisame and the awakening of Naruto's jinchuriki powers, was a precedent for the coming irrationality. 
Konan's and Madara's battle was, admittedly, interesting as we discovered Konan's full abilities, but this ended with Madara gaining the Rinnegan, which made so many other things in the series unbalanced. When the two ambush squads met during the first day, I thought "Hey, this may be a great battle. Afterall, it's the war and Sasuke is, for the most part, incapacitated for a while." Unfortunately, the battle was rushed and disappointing. 
When seeing Kakashi and his squad, I thought I would finally see a splendid battle. We simply saw a replay of Zabuza and Haku's battle from the first part. After they were sealed, only Pakura, Gari and the Seven Swordsmen were left. Seeing their abilities and Kakashi's badassery made me excited about the coming battle.... We never _see_ that battle. Again, disappointment. 
Kitsuchi and his daughter's battle was... just there. We really didn't see anything again.
Now began the battle between the Gold and Silver Brothers and Ino-Shika-Cho's battle with their master. The legendary items used during the G&S brothers' battle were ridiculous. Sealing pots, a short broad sword and a piece of rope with spiritual powers? A bit over-dramatic. Though Darui showed some extraordinary and leveled techniques, the G&S were simply boringly strong, though their backstory was interesting. The Ino-Shika-Cho battle was completely sped through, besides Choji's initial inability to fight. It ended with Choji losing weight and Shikamaru displaying his integration of the chakra blades and his shadow techniques. Mifune's battle was probably one of the better, but, yet again, it was overlooked by Kishi when he gave it a predictable ending.
Then... *it* happened. The most pathetic attempt of Kishi; the summoning of the Demonic Statue. The strength of the Statue and it's short appearance made this section of the war and eyesore to even read. I have not reread it since. In fact, I overlook that chapter when I go through to research for a post. 
The first night peaked my interest slightly, but like anything else about this War, I became lethargic. The battle between the Zetsu's and Mei's team was never shown, unfortunately. Which displeased me greatly. A's battle with Naruto and Bee was slightly interested, but ended so abruptly, it, too, annoyed me. 
After being allowed to roam and basically fight whatever the hell he wants, Naruto begins with the Zetsus. After showing these sudden pitiful Rasengan variations, I could only giggle. Is Kishi even trying anymore? Seriously, Mini-Rasenshuriken??? And his fight with that magnet-release shinobi was shameful. More eyesore chapters...
The small encounter with Itachi and Nagato was alright, until Itachi became a god. Using a crow with Shisui's eye, he broke the control over him and went off to defeat the other edos. Nagato's part in the battle depressed me. He was too easily defeated with the guidance and techniques of Itachi. 
Everyone struggles against the Third Raikage, Second Mizukage, Fourth Kazekage and Second Tsuchikage. Gaara, naturally, fought his father and made amends. Too quick, Kishi. Much too quick. Muu's fight with the third Tsuchikage was too quick, as well... The Third Raikage. Finally, I thought, someone worthy to watch in battle. That is, until he uses some Chidori attack. My face was permanently . My only favorite part of that battle was Dodai. After being sealed, the current battle between the Mizukage and Gaara begins. After breaking the genjutsu and unsuccessfully sealing him, the kage shows a tremendously powerful technique, which, I'm sure, Naruto will defeat.



You have disappointed me, Kishi.


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## Beastly (Sep 24, 2011)

Amen, Naruto is good manga and I completely agree with the deeper meaning behind it.

I used to hate Sasuke a lot, but then I just got used to him.


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## Who Dat (Sep 24, 2011)

This manga isn't a weekly dose of entertainment, its a journey written by a fucking genius. 

I cant explain how intricate and relevant some of the characters stories are in real life. Sometimes I think Kishimoto came from the hood and the character Pain/Nagato came from a time when he wanted to destroy everything to control everything. 

An ultimate sacrifice like Itachi's entire life. Jiraya's agony over getting rid of hatred in the world and not coming to a conclusion, and to pass on the mission to his idiot student with the ambition of a lion!

This manga is more than rasengan variations and power match ups, the story over these years has been nothing but perfect!


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 24, 2011)

Enjoying it a lot.


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## principito (Sep 26, 2011)

*One last ship to burn for Kishi...*

IMO Kishi has one last shot at making things Different and its his 6th coffin thing. Basically its the last chance to make things more like they used to be.

hopefully the ninja in the 6th coffin will come out and kill some people, and make the war actually look like hmm a war.

Manga is very predictable now and I think lost some suspense. We know nobody will die and Naruto is punching people left and right


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 26, 2011)

yet another thread complaining about people needing to die. you should either post in one of the other threads are go to the complaints section.


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## CA182 (Sep 26, 2011)

What makes me laugh is Nagato warning Naruto about the horror of war, yet no named characters have died.
The best we have is samui getting sealed.


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## Moku kage (Sep 26, 2011)

That's what fodders are for, dying. You just don't go around wasting the known names from your stories just for the lolz...


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 26, 2011)

for you thoses are nameless fodders, for Naruto they are people that could be saved;


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## principito (Sep 26, 2011)

cbark42 said:


> yet another thread complaining about people needing to die. you should either post in one of the other threads are go to the complaints section.




I'm not complaining.... it was a statement

I'm pointing out that the 6th coffin thing its the last thing to make the story turn somewhere else

learn to read mate


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 26, 2011)

you wanted him to come out and kill people:





> hopefully the ninja in the 6th coffin will come out and kill some people, and make the war actually look like hmm a war.


that combined with





> NOBODY WILL DIE in this fucking "war"


and





> nobody will fucking die in this war,


 really made it seem like this thread was for bitching about character deaths.

edit: i agree that the sixth coffin is the last big plot twist.


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## Prototype (Sep 26, 2011)

I've given up on anyone dying, even if the sixth coffin is someone potentially feared and powerful.


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## motto (Sep 26, 2011)

principito said:


> I'm not complaining.... it was a statement
> 
> I'm pointing out that the 6th coffin thing its the last thing to make the story turn somewhere else
> 
> learn to read mate



Learn how to phrase, mate 

When you complain for 5 paragraphs and get to the point in your last one, people might think it's really a complaint thread.
Next time make the statement first.


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## Icegaze (Sep 26, 2011)

1. The current (War) arc is far from over.
2. It is a serious war with thousands of casualties.
3. The more you expect/demand the deaths of main primary and secondary characters the less surprise/suspense you will gain from the proceedings of the plot.
4. Sakura is there to save lives.


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## Seraphiel (Sep 26, 2011)

Who Dat said:


> This manga isn't a weekly dose of entertainment, its a journey written by a fucking genius.
> 
> I cant explain how intricate and relevant some of the characters stories are in real life. Sometimes I think Kishimoto came from the hood and the character Pain/Nagato came from a time when he wanted to destroy everything to control everything.
> 
> ...



It's hardly perfect or intricate sorry, I have no idea what else you read so far but Naruto's story is quite bland and generic, and really poorly done after land of waves. Characters are really stale and bland.


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## ovanz (Sep 26, 2011)

Expect nothing from this manga, then you won't be dissapointed. I'm sure the six coffin won't live to its hype. Probably killer bee may be captured but that's all.


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## principito (Sep 26, 2011)

cbark42 said:


> you wanted him to come out and kill people:that combined withand really made it seem like this thread was for bitching about character deaths.
> 
> edit: i agree that the sixth coffin is the last big plot twist.





motto said:


> Learn how to phrase, mate
> 
> When you complain for 5 paragraphs and get to the point in your last one, people might think it's really a complaint thread.
> Next time make the statement first.



I already edited the damn thing haha


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## Klue (Sep 26, 2011)

Yagami1211 said:


> for you thoses are nameless fodders, for Naruto they are people that could be saved;



Which is what a lot of people fail to understand. Although, Kishi hasn't done a good job of presenting that point.

But we all get it by now.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Sep 26, 2011)

why cant named characters die :'(


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## PureWIN (Sep 26, 2011)

This forum is very blood-lusted.


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## Jad (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeah....Where the hell is Lee ? :/  He has GATES, come on show me my favorite character already. YOU DIDN'T EVEN SHOW THEM FIGHTING CLONES IN THE MANGA. Give me something! Seriously. And Neji ? The only Jounin out of the Konoha 12 and yet Chouji gets Kage level freaking feats. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!! CHOUJI! You spent tim making Choji a big freaking buttery fly, DAMN YOU Kishimoto and your love for Naruto and Sasuke and Itachi wang.


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## Supa Swag (Sep 26, 2011)

PrazzyP said:


> why cant named characters die :'(



Because this is a Shonen Jump manga and the author has no desire to develop legit dramatic tension.




Who Dat said:


> I cant explain how intricate and relevant some of the characters stories are in real life. *Sometimes I think Kishimoto came from the hood* and the character Pain/Nagato came from a time when he wanted to destroy everything to control everything.




Well I've just about heard it all now 

good lord


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## Boocock (Sep 26, 2011)

Characters shouldn't die for the sake of killing off characters. You can't torture your characters if they're dead...

Oh wait, Edo Tensei. Nevermind. /sarcasm

Each character is getting his or her moment. That's something we haven't had since the Chuunin Exams. And, all of these characters are returning. This arc is about letting those people, who fought and died as a result of the Ninja System, rest for all eternity.

In my opinion, this is the best arc since the Chuunin Exams. Oh, and no one important died during that arc, aside from Sarutobi of course. Plus, didn't we learn during that arc that a successful mission where people team is assassinated isn't a successful mission at all?

For real, it's Naruto, not a Shakespearean tragedy. I'll miss it when it's gone.


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## LS20 (Sep 26, 2011)

Boocock said:


> This arc is about letting those people, who fought and died as a result of the Ninja System, rest for all eternity.



Weren't they already resting for all eternity?


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## Supa Swag (Sep 27, 2011)

LS20 said:


> Weren't they already resting for all eternity?



Nah, the first time didn't count, this time it's for real!


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## Faustus (Oct 3, 2011)

Supa Swag said:


> Nah, the first time didn't count, this time it's for real!



Resting wrapped in the "toilet paper" isn't too comfortable


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## Prince Vegeta (Oct 7, 2011)

*Shikamaru is worthy of a biger role*

Kishi stop rotating the Manga just around Naruto and Sasuke'.
Shikamaru is a Genius and there aren't many like him in Konoha. Kishi should give him a biger role and more screen time.


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## Federer (Oct 7, 2011)

He has had plenty of screen time, he even had his 'own arc'.

Shino should be the one with more screentime.


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## Kaname Kuran (Oct 7, 2011)

There are a lot of characters that deserve a larger roll but none get them, Kishi is going to write his story how he pleases.


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## Synn (Oct 7, 2011)

You seriously think Shikamaru, of all people, lacks screen time? Have you forgotten about Neji, Lee, Tenten and Shino?


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## odilbek123 (Oct 7, 2011)

It might be out of topic,but lighting element weapons(like Bee and Sasuke)would make TenTen extremely strong.Just imagine thousands of kunais with lighting being thrown by her.


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## Synn (Oct 7, 2011)

odilbek123 said:


> It might be out of topic,but lighting element weapons(like Bee and Sasuke)would make TenTen extremely strong.Just imagine thousands of kunais with lighting being thrown by her.



If you know it's off-topic, why'd you post this?


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## kristibrud (Oct 7, 2011)

Synn said:


> You seriously think Shikamaru, of all people, lacks screen time? Have you forgotten about Neji, Lee, *Tenten* and Shino?


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## Heli (Oct 7, 2011)

kristibrud said:


>



No kidding Tenten had her obligatory role in part 2.

Part 1:
Owned by a fan

Part 2:
Owned by a fan


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## Bart (Oct 7, 2011)

*Enter:* _House of Hyuga!_


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## SaVaGe609 (Oct 7, 2011)

Huh?

Any Team Asuma fans should be damn satisfied. Not only is Shikamaru Kishi's lapdog, but he even factors in the rest of his team.

Now Shino? Shino has been treated like shit, though he was shown to be more capable and have more potential than most other rookies combined early on in Part I. Seriously, that character deserves far more than what he got. Intelligent as shit and original.


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## Icegaze (Oct 7, 2011)

Bart said:


> *Enter:* _House of Hyuga!_



Bart! 
It's been a while, Hyuga-fan(atic). 

On topic:
Shikamaru's doing just fine in the manga. Shino and Tenten (and to some extent Kiba) need serious panel time boosts.


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## Chibason (Oct 7, 2011)

@OP- There isn't much time to improve on the side characters... The focus will largely remain on Naruto and Sasuke since the manga is coming to an end..


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## kidgogeta (Oct 7, 2011)

He's been given way too much attention as it is. He's my favorite character and I admit this.


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## Appleofeden (Oct 7, 2011)

Kishi should give alot of people more screen time, ain't gonna happen though. Welcome to part 2.


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## Naruto Fighto (Oct 7, 2011)

Shikamaru is probably hard to write since Kishi needs to think of new tactics and strategies for Shikamaru every time he fights or appears....but it would be enjoyable to read.


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## odilbek123 (Oct 7, 2011)

Is manga really close to end?I mean the war just have started.


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## BlazingCobaltX (Oct 7, 2011)

Many characters deserve more screentime and a bigger role, Shikamaru had his shining time in his own arc and now in the war, too, he doesn't need more at all. Others from the Konoha 11 deserve more, Kishi should stop making the manga around a few characters and make fodders from the rest.


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## ANBUONE (Oct 7, 2011)

I love shiki and even i admit after  naruto and  sasuke, he has had the most screen time.


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## Kujiro Anodite (Oct 7, 2011)

I think Shikamaru had enough development, panels and contribution..

I should say this for the rest of Team Asuma, 
enough background, enough development, 
even Ino and Choji are getting the hang of it.
their problem is that they have their own plot, and Story,
The will of fire theme is really well presented by Team 10,

but I think it's about time to give others their chance too! 
they need it..


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## Shikamaru Nara (Oct 7, 2011)

As much as i would like to agree, i can't 

I really really love Shiakamru as a character but tbh he has not enough plot relevance to give him more screentime.He actually already is the Main-Side-character IMO.He will get some more due to the war cause his intellect is a important thing in this war.But let the others shine aswell.Shikamaru needs his sleep he doesn't give a sh** about screen-time.

BTW:Haven't seen Shino lately who is a cool character aswell.Let him rape some fodder too.


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## Yasaka Magatama (Oct 7, 2011)

I agree. I want more screentime for Shikamaru. But so do others like...... (you know them) I believe now it's hard for Kishi to give them bigger roles already, unless there will be another timeskip focusing on them, rather than Uchiha. BTW, I think if it's the other way around, Shika being focused and Sasuke being neglected, people would say the same thing too.


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## Undead (Oct 7, 2011)

I love Shikamaru, So I wouldn't mind, but I think making this thread is just screaming trouble.  A lot of people think he's had enough panel time, and others are more deserving of it.


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## zenieth (Oct 7, 2011)

shikamaru and gaara probably have the mot screen time after team 7 and Bee


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## momma bravo (Oct 7, 2011)

Prince Vegeta said:


> Kishi stop rotating the Manga just around Naruto and Sasuke'.
> Shikamaru is a Genius and there aren't many like him in Konoha. *Kishi should give him a biger role and more screen time.*



i'm pretty sure getting more screen time would be too troublesome for shikamaru. 

it's bittersweet because by seeing less of him that makes for less opportunities to have his suave attitude ruined.


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## Lelouch71 (Oct 7, 2011)

I rather Rock Lee get some screen time and solo the remaining villains.


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## Heli (Oct 7, 2011)

Lelouch71 said:


> I rather Rock Lee get some screen time and solo the remaining villains.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 7, 2011)

Shikamaru ? you mean that overrated Chuunin ?


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## javiakuya (Oct 7, 2011)

Prince Vegeta said:


> Kishi stop rotating the Manga just around Naruto and Sasuke'.
> *Neji* is a Genius and there aren't many like him in Konoha. Kishi should give him a biger role and more screen time.



Fixed for you.


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## 24 Hours (Oct 7, 2011)

Wow at the Sasuke votes 
Madara and Orochimaru are the only ones should be up there


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## BlazingCobaltX (Oct 8, 2011)

Kishi, do you like making Sakura a Damsel in Distress?


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## Jad (Oct 8, 2011)

That was the GREATEST CHAPTER EVER, I loved 558....................................................................................  Just kidding, it was really pathetic. There you go fans of Naruto (the character), you got your wish, Naruto _kicking ass_ AS usual. Seriously, he makes all the other characters look like dirt now. Kishimoto well done, you've officially wanked to your own creation, I bet you find pleasure doing this to me. 	 You couldn't even let Neji save his own cousin could you ? COULD YOU, you had to make Naruto have a BIG entry, not once, not twice, THREE TIMES! Seriously, Naruto's clones are as powerful as his original self, that whole talk about splitting the chakara among the clones doesn't even equate to Naruto anymore. Seriously his clones practically go in and out of Sage Mode and RM mode. How the hell are we gonna discuss in the BD when you can have 10 RM Naruto's all have the exact same power and strength. YOUR NOT GIVING ME ANYTHING TO WORK WITH!

You didn't even show KAKASHI, *LEE *or GAI. You better be freaking saving them up for something amazing, seriously, I mean something freaking explosive, otherwise I'm dropping this manga in the toilet and reading something more interesting than this pile of CRAP. Maybe stick with Rock Lee's spring time of youth manga strip, at least I can see SOMETHING there. Yes I'm butt-hurt, feeling pissed, raging, AS I SHOULD BE! 	  

[Do not delete, stop with this nonsense. Stop picking on me. Seriously, I posted this post the third and second time WELL before the manga was out. I read the rules as well, they said spoilers are allowed except POST-RAW and PRE-RAW. And plus BD and other threads, and posts have more spoilers than what I have in this post. Infact I don't even have spoilers on here besides Naruto saving the day. And don't ban me. Unless I can see in the future and post spoilers on the manga I've read.]


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## Abanikochan (Oct 8, 2011)

24 Hours said:


> Wow at the Sasuke votes
> Madara and Orochimaru are the only ones should be up there



Yes cause taking a dump on your brother's sacrifices and wishes is not selfish.


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## Yaaay (Oct 14, 2011)

Two (558-559) of the worst chapters I have ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever read. My interest in Naruto has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY and I wasn't even very fond of it anymore.

The only one who can change something is Naruto Naruto and Naruto. It's all 10000% about Naruto Naruto Naruto Naruto. Why introduce other characters to begin with if the show is going to revolve around Naruto Naruto Naruto. Sakura? Who the fuck gives a shit about her anymore, main character LOL yeah right, that was some 200 chapters ago at the beginning of Shippuuden. Now all she can do is getting saved by Naruto and fall for stupid traps. Great strong Kunoichi who will surpass Tsunade? That's so 2007.

Hinata and Neji can eat a shit too, Hinata is still terrible and emotionally instable. She'd probably commit suicide if it weren't for Naruto super corny "I know what you're thinking cause I'm amazing and can read minds!" speeches. Thankfully this was a very good oppurtunity for Neji to save his cousin. Oh I'm sorry, I misspelled Naruto. Ha Neji doing something heroic, that's only what the main character NARUTO is supposed to do. 

WOW NARUTO SAVED US AGAIN HE TURNED THE TIDES ALL BY HIMSELF THAT'S HOW GREAT HE IS, THIS PLOT IS SO EXCITING!! What do you say, laws of Chakra? That's only for weaklings such as Sakura and Kakashi, not for our god Naruto and his billion clones.

Seriously. The show is called Naruto. The main character is Naruto. He plays the biggest role. Well that is understable, but this. is. too. MUCH. There is a limit to it, and it has been far exceeded. To make things even worse the main character is absolutely TERRIBLE at the moment and he is becoming severely worse by every chapter. Needless to say it has made the manga EXTREMELY boring and almost bothersome to read. Not that reading a chapter will take longer than 30 seconds now since I'm skimming it soooo badly.


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## TheTsukishima (Oct 14, 2011)

I agree with Yaaay to an extent.  My biggest complaint about the war thus far is how everyone not named Naruto gets shafted.  In my mind, this war was the perfect chance to take something great from the Sasuke Rescue Arc: having fights set up to show the growth of some of the Konoha 11.

Seeing Naruto come save the day in the last two chapters is the equivalent of Kishi saying "I don't want to waste my effort developing the other characters I've already established".  And this comes right after Itachi tells Naruto that he can't do everything by himself.  Thanks for taking Itachi's advice, Naruto.


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## Jad (Oct 15, 2011)

Ah my freaking gosh soo bloody true, both of your posts, the two above ones. Couldn't of agreed with you more. Especially the part about Itachi going on about how he shouldn't do everything by himself but he ends up doing it anyways. Also, this WAS the best time to develop minor characters. HE could of given Naruto a break developed on others, than brought him into the bigger picture when everyone else has had there spot light.  Repped both of you. +++++++++ So true again.


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## LeeUchiha (Oct 15, 2011)

Hahaha you really think 558-9 are worse than oh, say, 449 (Jesus no Jutsu), or 467 (Madara: "I CAN HAS WAR"), or the 483-484-485 abortions? I do agree that Naruto is one of the worst main characters I've ever come across in a shonen. Dead Kages have more fans.

And to everyone saying that Lee, Neji, Hinata and them need to do things-- I present Kishi's Jump Festa response: "Lee is mature enough, he doesn't need more development (approx)". That's what happened. Just apply to everyone. Well, not _everyone_. Sakura is a special case. She was developing too much, so she was _undeveloped_. What a privilege. Yes Kishimoto breaks new ground people.


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## Saunion (Oct 16, 2011)

I like Naruto, but sadly I sort of agree. Everything goes back to how poorly Kishimoto handled Naruto's timeskip training and his overall part 2 achievements. I feel like he wouldn't have to force the narrative about how Naruto is the "hero" and the "savior" so hard right now if he had given him proper powerups, fight and overall screentime from chapter 245 to chapter 400. 

Though the problem with the Rookies is deeper than just Naruto hogging the spotlight. The problem with them is that they have no real ties to the main plot and for some of them, don't even have personal goals or struggles to overcome. Even if they did stuff during that war beside being saved by Naruto, it'd only be hollow fanservice.


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## SeventhPath (Oct 16, 2011)

LeeUchiha said:


> Hahaha you really think 558-9 are worse than oh, say, 449 (Jesus no Jutsu), or 467 (Madara: "I CAN HAS WAR"), or the 483-484-485 abortions? I do agree that Naruto is one of the worst main characters I've ever come across in a shonen. Dead Kages have more fans.
> 
> And to everyone saying that Lee, Neji, Hinata and them need to do things-- I present Kishi's Jump Festa response: "Lee is mature enough, he doesn't need more development (approx)". That's what happened. Just apply to everyone. Well, not _everyone_. Sakura is a special case. She was developing too much, so she was _undeveloped_. What a privilege. Yes Kishimoto breaks new ground people.



I also agree.
Indeed, ALL the main characters were atrociously developed during part II, while the support characters (the rookies) were ignored.

*Naruto* - during most of part II, he was Sasuke's manwhore (BTW, this hasn't changed); emotionally unstable, repeatedly showing he can't take care of himself (there was no instance when he didn't need to be saved prior to the current arc; Sasuke, Itachi bitch-slapped him with ease/repeatedly; etc). 
This peaked during the kage summit arc - let's see: Naruto meets Tobi, knowing Tobi's responsible for his parents' death and 9 tails being in him (and all the pain these caused him). What does Naruto do? Does he confront Tobi? Does he even mentions these to Tobi? Does he even THINK about these? No - all he can think and talk about is Sasuke, screaming like a mental hospital inmate. 
Surprisingly, Kishi even managed to surpass this - hyperventilation, unilateral Romeo&Juliet suicide pact, etc.
Ever since that arc, Naruto's character cannot be taken seriously any longer. He crossed the trolling event horison.

The jesus wanna-be/prophecy mode that Kishi retconned/added to the Sasuke-obsessed mode in order to make the plot even tangentially about Naruto? Annoying, considering the lack of credibility and the easy brain-washing capabilities given to Naruto's character.

The fan service in the curent arc? Ironic, considering Naruto would slow boil all his friends if he knew he could thus become Sasuke's pet - as per his characterisation during virtually all of part II.


*Sasuke* - during the first part of part II, a Gary Stu/karma houdini - which makes him annoying if you're not a fan. Afterwards, he suddenly (with no character development worth mentioning) becomes a full blown villain - and he's even more annoying than before because anyone who read the manga can see he'll be forgiven for all he did in a gigantic karma houdini move at the end of the series.

Then there are, of course, the large, gratuitous power-ups for both characters. 
Naruto's being full of inconsistencies (see his 'training' during the time skip vs his rushed power-ups during part II).
Plus, jumping from being a sub-standard ninja to 'creme de la creme' and then back to being a weakling breaks the suspension of disbelief. 
This is also true for Naruto jumping from being a retard to a highly intelligent ninja and then back again (which happened as recently as the current arc).


*Sakura* - by this point, she's a main character only in name. No impact over the plot, no goals (other than dreaming about being the first of Sasuke's beaten wives harem), etc. Beyond the first arc of part II, all the panels she received were wasted on cheerleading and crying.


*Kakashi* - Kishi has taken the 'Worf effect' and 'tell, don't show' as principal guidelines for this character. 
Kakakshi has yet to encounter an Akatasuki that didn't prove stronger - despite his 'reputation'. 
During Kakashi's last encounter with a nearly blind/exhausted Sasuke, Kakashi - this expert in martial arts - was stumbling upon his feet after the first minutes of the fight, "overusing" his sole counter to an attack Sasuke could spam like the energizer bunny. Conclusion - Kakashi is target practice even for an exhausted Sasuke.
Kakashi's "rampage" in the current arc - as expected, it's a 'tell, don't show'.

Kakakshi's personality development during part II - a few panels talking to his dad, with no lasting effect on the way the character was portrayed.


*The entirety of Konoha* - pathetic during the Pain invasion. In a world where a power like Pain's exists, Konoha is not worthy of the name 'great power' - it failed to acquire/maintain such power itself, becoming a third-rate village with delusions of grandeur.
No army that can be defeated by a single enemy combtant can be taken seriously in a world in which such a combatant exists.

Etc.


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## kingcombo (Oct 18, 2011)

Has anyone mentioned part 2?


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## Convicted playa (Oct 18, 2011)

bullsh3t said:


> I hate how deidara and sasori got trolled.



Sasori should have stayed alive and kicked everyone's butt.

I was sad about itachi dieing but it was for the best but should have made a more epic-er end before his return .


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## Tion (Oct 19, 2011)

So sick of the fucking haxx and how the entire plot points of this manga has been reduced to 'hey kids want to be strong? than get a magical eyeball transplant!' I don't know how a writer can sabotage his own story so quickly, degenerating the vast/interesting systems, cultures and history he established in Part1 of the Narutoverse to basically a vacuous one-note storyline about one terribly overdramatic butthurt clan dealing with their own historical fuck ups.

This manga's story cohesion and themes are seriously dumber than my shoes.


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## Saunion (Oct 19, 2011)

> a vacuous one-note storyline about one terribly overdramatic butthurt clan dealing with their own historical fuck ups.



 That should be the official summary of the Naruto manga.

Sadly.


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## LeeUchiha (Oct 19, 2011)

You know what makes no sense at all? Chapters 467-468. Why did Madara reveal his plan to his worst enemies? Is he dumb? I'm still waiting for the *real* plan to come out, like it's all a trap! But it's been almost a hundred chapters and not a clue dropped supports this, right?

I mean doesn't it bother anyone that if this were simple and true: 
1. Kishi break Madara's shadowy, secretive character, by having him do something open and foolish.
2. Madara becomes stOOOpid by telling everyone his master plan and intentions when essentially there's no reason to.
4. He unites the villages  
5. He betrays Kisame 
6. He reveals existence/location of secret uchiha tablet containing said master plan
7. He tries to scare them into giving up, RIGHT AFTER telling them how weak he is.
8. Kages are stupid for believing that's the real Madara without any evidence
9. Kages are stupid for believing this is his *real* plan, like real warlords would act this way
10. Kages are stupid for believing mythological legends like Rikidou exist because a masked man told them so
11. Kages are stupid for believing Madara was really negotiating. (and if he was serious, Kishimoto doesn't deserve to write his next manga)

I'm sure there are more things wrong, but the damage done to the story by these two chapters cannot be wholly undone.


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## Brox (Oct 26, 2011)

*akatsuki cloaks*

why did kabuto revive the akatsuki member in these orphans rags instead of their pimp cloaks? at least, they would have been owned with more style ...


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## butcher50 (Oct 31, 2011)

LeeUchiha said:


> You know what makes no sense at all? Chapters 467-468. Why did Madara reveal his plan to his worst enemies? Is he dumb? I'm still waiting for the *real* plan to come out, like it's all a trap! But it's been almost a hundred chapters and not a clue dropped supports this, right?
> 
> I mean doesn't it bother anyone that if this were simple and true:
> 1. Kishi break Madara's shadowy, secretive character, by having him do something open and foolish.
> ...



the manga is just too damn long, Kishi is suffering from a writer's fatigue.


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## vegeta2002 (Nov 1, 2011)

*Yamato's Wasted Potential*

I'll keep this short since I imagine a lot of readers will have a lot to say about this. Mokuton, the most revered KG in this manga, was nerfed and given to a failed Kakashi replacement. 

You'd think that anyone with Mokuton would also have Hashirama's massive chakra, but nope. Yamato can barely produce a tree without getting tired. He can barely suppress the 4 tails (what was he supposed to do against the Kyuubi's 8 tailed form?). So far Yamato has been humiliated in terms of Mokuton by Danzo, Zetsu, Madara, and probably Tobi soon. 

The last surviving Senju has yet to demonstrate one elemental affinity (except maybe lightning?) Why is it so easy to get Mokuton and so hard to give Konoha a powerful Mokuton user? WTF, Kishi?


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 1, 2011)

[1] Yamato isn't Senju related, thus does not have a huge Chakra capacity to use Mokuton.

[2] Yamato was given Hashirama DNA altering cells, thus why he can use Mokuton. In reality he doesn't have an affinity to it. He just trained it to the best of his current ability.

[3] Yamato surviving having the Shodai Hokage's cells in his body gives him credit alone, being the only one out of 60.

[4] Mokuton was stated to be the rarest of the rare in terms of all Bloodline Limit - Kekkei Genkai. Thus why Hashirama had it while his brother did not. It would be considerably hard to pass that on. Explaining why there are no other user's of the Kekkei Genkai in existence. To show the exclusiveness of Kekkei Genkai would be to show Shikotsumyaku. For this ability seems to be extremely rare amongst the Kaguya clan's members, as Kimimaro was the only one to hold the Kekkei Genkai it out of his entire clan.

[5] Yamato didn't acquire Mokuton through his own means, so had no intentions of increasing it's ability through dishonorable means like his fellow Mokuton user's - Danzo, Zetsu Army, Madara.

[6] As far as we know, the last surviving member of the Senju is Tsunade the Slug Princess. 

[7] Tenzou isn't a waste. His potential is being sucked up by the lotus flower which the Gedo Mazo sits on - powering the White Zetsu Army. Tobi was chuffed when Kabuto brought him back for power.


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## jimbob631 (Nov 1, 2011)

Give Yamato time, he will likely play a role by absorbing the Hashirama clone which will boost his overall strength.  Kabuto may even do a soul transfer to take over his body.


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## vegeta2002 (Nov 1, 2011)

BurningVegeta said:


> [1] Yamato isn't Senju related, thus does not have a huge Chakra capacity to use Mokuton.
> 
> [2] Yamato was given Hashirama DNA altering cells, thus why he can use Mokuton. In reality he doesn't have an affinity to it. He just trained it to the best of his current ability.
> 
> ...



I'll just counter your first point and you can assume that I can counter most of the others. Danzo and Madara aren't Senjus either. Out of Yamato, Danzo, and Madara only one of them had Mokuton abilities pretty much from birth (Yamato) and he's the weakest. What kind of Mokuton user gets imprisoned inside of a plant?

I'm not even talking about Senju+Uchiha abilities. Just Mokuton. Danzo could produce larger Mokutons than Yamato (while powering multiple sharingans) without even trying. That's sad.



jimbob631 said:


> Give Yamato time, he will likely play a role by absorbing the Hashirama clone which will boost his overall strength.  Kabuto may even do a soul transfer to take over his body.



I hope so...


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 1, 2011)

vegeta2002 said:


> I'll just counter your first point and you can assume that I can counter most of the others. Danzo and Madara aren't Senjus either. Out of Yamato, Danzo, and Madara only one of them had Mokuton abilities pretty much from birth (Yamato) and he's the weakest.
> 
> I'm not even talking about Senju+Uchiha abilities. Just Mokuton. Danzo could produce larger Mokutons than Yamato without even trying. That's sad.


[1] You missed plenty of my points and I'm counting back the ones you have replied to. Come at me bro! Danzo and Madara aren't Senju clan members' but they do have Senju cells which have been implemented by themselves and built upon. 
[2] Whilst Yamato hasn't been, Orochimaru left the Village before he could reap the benefits of Yamato's use of Mokuton. To add, there is nothing to suggest Yamato has Senju Chakra capacity, like that which was built upon with Danzo and Madara should already have a large capacity of Chakra with him being a Uchiha. Yamato doesn't have either benefit of Chakra capacity - artificial or natural. He can just use the Shodai Hokage's Jutsu. Nothing more...
[3] Thus why he may appear weaker in comparison to Danzo and Madara.
[4] Having the use of a Jutsu from birth/adolescence does not mean you will have a superior control over it then another Ninja. An example is Kakashi's use of the Rasengan - Naruto has superior control due to Chakra supply and general ability.
[5] I'm guess my other points that are unchallenged, stand correct and infallible, eh?


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## vegeta2002 (Nov 1, 2011)

I'll just counter your first argument again. Yamato has Senju cells too. He's the only one of the "artificial Senjus" that doesn't have large amounts of chakra. Implanting Senju cells and not gaining Senju level chakra is like implanting a sharingan and ending up blind.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 1, 2011)

vegeta2002 said:


> I'll just counter your first argument again. Yamato has Senju cells too. He's the only one of the "artificial Senjus" that doesn't have large amounts of chakra. Implanting Senju cells and not gaining Senju level chakra is like implanting a sharingan and ending up blind.


[1] Orochimaru abducted 60 children to implement the Shodai Hokage's Mokuton and with that Biju control. Nothing else was stated.
[2] The example you used is flawed. A suitable example would be implementing a Sharingan and not having the required Chakra to use it _effectively_. For example Kakashi Hatake and the Sharingan given to him by Obito Uchiha. Yamato does not have Mokuton abilites then is unable to use them, which is exactly what a blind Sharingan would be like.


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## vegeta2002 (Nov 1, 2011)

BurningVegeta said:


> [1] Orochimaru abducted 60 children to implement the Shodai Hokage's Mokuton and with that Biju control. Nothing else was stated.
> [2] The example you used is flawed. A suitable example would be implementing a Sharingan and not having the required Chakra to use it _effectively_. For example Kakashi Hatake and the Sharingan given to him by Obito Uchiha.



I'll counter your second argument this time. I said advanced forms of Sharingan abilities, like Izanagi and Rinnegan. It's quite clear that the Oro's and Kabuto's purpose is to master the secrets of the Rinnegan. You can't do that without the Sage's body abilities. Yamato is a failure because he gained the Mokuton without gaining any of the Sage's body abilities. FAILED POTENTIAL.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 1, 2011)

vegeta2002 said:


> I'll counter your second argument this time. I said advanced forms of Sharingan abilities, like Izanagi and Rinnegan. It's quite clear that the Oro's and Kabuto's purpose is to master the secrets of the Rinnegan. You can't do that without the Sage's body abilities. Yamato is a failure because he gained the Mokuton without gaining any of the Sage's body abilities. FAILED POTENTIAL.


That isn't failed potential. More failure on Orochimaru's part, but like I said Orochimaru wasn't trying to do that so go as you mean to go on ignoring that.

[1] Yamato was Orochimaru's first test.
[2] The test was for Mokuton and Biju manipulation.
[2] He never got to carry on after Yamato survived the implant of Shodai's cells.
[3] There is a blatant difference between the Mokuton skills between Danzo and Madara.
[4] Danzo used Orochimaru to increase his vitality and Chakra control and capacity. Orochimaru spent time on Danzo, but not Yamato as he fled.
[5] Madara has great Chakra control and capacity.
[6] Yamato has normal level of Chakra control and capacity.
[7] Notice how experienced users have Shodai Hokage's face on them: Danzo has and presumably Madara does too.
[8] The implanting of Shodai's cells must have been different, or Yamato would be like Madara and Danzo; which he isn't. There is so much evidence to show Orochimaru did something different to Danzo and something different to Yamato.
[9] Thus it is no fault of his own, more Orochimaru that you see failure in him.


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## Doom Katon (Nov 1, 2011)

Very good points BurningVegeta.  Vegeta2002, you aren't really looking at his points your just trying to invalidate them but they actually make a lot of sense.  You probably shouldn't have had high hopes for Yamato from the start, he isn't a walking monster like the rest of the Frankensenjus.  Also when did Danzo produce larger Mokutons than Yamato, who has made a giant waterfall covered in trees and has rebuild half of Konoha?

i.e.
instantly
instantly


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## Neptun (Nov 1, 2011)

well, Yamato's not dead yet, is he?


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## Lelouch71 (Nov 1, 2011)

Unlike Madara and Danzou, Yamato isn't a freak show who obsess with gaining power by any means necessary.


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## SeventhPath (Nov 1, 2011)

Lelouch71 said:


> Unlike Madara and Danzou, Yamato isn't a freak show who obsess with gaining power by any means necessary.



And, as a result, he's a fodder - with a personality more boring than Danzou's and Madara's, despite their short appearances.


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## butcher50 (Nov 1, 2011)

Danzo's Plant/Wood growth genetic power implants weren't exactly perfect either.

he showed that he can use them only for a close-in Defensive purposes (rather then offensive+supportive+defensive like Yamato can) and once he started seriously taxing his hashirama derived chakra reserves, burning out his Izanagi eyeballs and getting a solid hit wound from sasuke's sword, his Mokuton started going berserk (transforming into a permanent tree growth).......threatening to consume danzo along with it if he didn't get rid of it as soon as possible (ripping off his arm)


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## Superstars (Nov 1, 2011)

Shouldn't complain about characters who bring good action. Danzou's fight with Sauce was good.


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## αce (Nov 1, 2011)

Madara too strong
Nerf please


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## Superstars (Nov 2, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Madara too strong
> Nerf please



Not really.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 6, 2011)

None, except that everyone thinks Sandaime Raikage's now invincible.


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## Kung Pow (Dec 1, 2011)

Why does A depict such extreme physical strength?

I mean is it like that typical "Manga extreme overexaggeration of physical interactions" when he grabs B or kicks him through 3 buildings just for disciplinary measures?

A?s ancestors all were ungifted shinobi, and descendance of the Senju is irrelevant since he is black

But why is he always depicted to be so overwhelmingly physically strong?


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## TheRipper (Dec 1, 2011)

Just throwing this out there.
I hate Deidara and everything he stands for.
I don't understand why people like him, when he came back as an Edo I freaked the fuck out.
Why? Because he NEVER shuts the fuck up. His character is nothing short of annoying, he's jealous of every boy that walks his way it's pathetic. He looks like a chick, and he reminds me of a chick with that inferiority complex of his.
His abilities are cool, but it sucks that his character is so aggravating. I've never been so frustrated by a character before. I'd rather watch Naruto or Bleach English Dubs than have to deal with his ass.


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## Itachisaywat (Dec 1, 2011)

Why is lariat so overrated? OMG the brothers are going for their ultimate combo, their unbeatable trump card, their signature technique! Super arm smash no jutsu!@


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## jaywilson1992 (Dec 8, 2011)

*What bother You about the Manga*

I have 2 things

minato splitting the kyuubis chakra and sealing half in the death god. i liked the manag more when i believed naruto had the monster we saw decimate the village in the first chapter. to find out some half chakra mini kyuubi was in naruto the whole time made me sad/mad/annoyed.

i also hate sasukes mangekyou design, his brothers was badass, watching his sharingan tomoes form his mangekyou in the anime was sweet as. i hate sasukes EMS desgine even more, itachis mangekyou desgine has changed and it looks smaller and does not have the overlapping 6 shape, also one is upsidedown wtf.

other than this i love this manga!


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## Aeiou (Dec 8, 2011)

All the lost potential..


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Dec 8, 2011)

They don't show Sasuke enough


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## jaywilson1992 (Dec 8, 2011)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> They don't show Sasuke enough



i think kishi does that on purpose so when we see sasuke after like 18 months absence we're like "ZOMFG SASUKES BACK HELLZ YEAH!!!" as much as i hated his EMS design the unveiling of it and his EMS tenju susanno with amatsword made me nearly cum with excitement and awe.


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## TheTsukishima (Dec 8, 2011)

The lack of development for many characters.  

If it were up to me to write the story, I'd have short, minor but story-relevant arcs, each dedicated to exploring and developing the dimensions of a different set of characters.  

The war that's been going on is an opportunity in to demonstrating what everyone else (like the rest of the Konoha 11) is capable of.  It's been happening recently, but nowhere near as much as I would have liked; an opportunity not fully seized yet, but at least it's on the right path.


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## Nathan Copeland (Dec 8, 2011)

Uncle Nathan has Made a Lit for a thread like this

1. Dosu was killed off (for what reason??? he was a fuckin awesome character who had uniqe jutsu that could mostly one shot chracters like Minato, Itachi, Madara and majority of naruto chars)

2. Senju and Uchiha ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) Fest ( Lets face it's like DBZ Now anyone who is not sayian er um mean Senju or Uchiha is fucking fodder.... makes me fucking sick to my stomach to know that awesome characters like shino,Lee, Neji and kiba will never have a real fight again)

3. Sage of Six Paths Crap (  thi dosn't even need an explanation

4. Naruto (he's a one trick pony, Rasengan, Big Rasengan, Huge Rasengan, Double Rasengan, Wind Rasengan, Ninja Star Rasengan, Planet Rasengan, Galaxy Rasengan and Final Rasengan . . .um is he gonna do any other jutsu . . .and kyuubi chakra mose sucks ass now, poor mans super sayian


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## 24 Hours (Dec 8, 2011)

Power scaling is mess up, and 
Tobi who is the main villain is being use for side characters' hype


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## Cheshire (Dec 8, 2011)

I used to bother about the manga like you, but then I took an arrow in the knee...


But In all seriousness I'd say fucking Sakura man.. every single panel with her makes me want to quit reading the manga.


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## Kung Pow (Dec 8, 2011)

Itachisaywat said:


> Why is lariat so overrated? OMG the brothers are going for their ultimate combo, their unbeatable trump card, their signature technique! Super arm smash no jutsu!@



Lariat is a reference to WWE Clothesline

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fgIeUNNAN8[/YOUTUBE]

It almost explains everything there is to know about Raikage^^
Big, Muscular, serious, bad tempered, extremely strong, and when he comes in the lights go out.


*Just *like with the undertaker
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wD7rRrXjGE[/YOUTUBE]


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## butcher50 (Dec 9, 2011)

Kishimoto and his editors seems to be those people that consider "Consistency" a very vulgar word.

Kishi's refusal to keep his introduced information/data consistent, especially some vital back-stories in the future is grating enough, but now half of 3rd Databook has been rendered pretty much obsolete for no good reason, just because he needed something more "fresh" and "current" to keep the story "interesting".

other comicbooks atleast have the excuse of getting their creative teams changed and shuffled when retcons (minor and major) occur all over the place, but here we have an singular, unchanging author at the helm who seems to be having several different creative teams inside his own head, battling for control each and every chapter.

to be fair, sometimes the writer's fatigue symptoms are very obvious here and the series long long since past it's prime.


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## 24 Hours (Dec 20, 2011)

Super eyes ruined the series


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## Ibb (Dec 20, 2011)

Remember; character is king.


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## Escargon (Dec 22, 2011)

Seriously cant get over that Kishi had to make the sixth coffin being Madara.


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## Hero of Light (Dec 30, 2011)

Well, I dislike how Kishimoto makes Naruto so powerful but render him useless when it helps the story to progress...


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## Itachisaywat (Jan 8, 2012)

What was the point of Jiraiya coding his message before death?


----------



## Raiden (Jan 8, 2012)

^ To build tension to keep the readers interested. One way to constant have people read/watch your product is to always keep them guessing.


----------



## Ryoku Uchiha (Jan 9, 2012)

In my opinion the biggest complaints I have about the series all originated in part 2. In part 2 the self-driven, determined to surpass all, Naruto Uzumaki filled with ingenuity was turned into a natural genius capable of jumping from Anbu/Jounin level to kage level in less then one weeks time and jumping from kage level to god level (where clones can take down immortal kages) in one more weeks time. Not only has Naruto the character lost his consistency but the number of missing nins (characters in the series who appear to have disappeared or lost all relevance) in the series have seen a dramatic increase, not to mention the loss of some of the classic Naruto themes I cherished such as what it takes to be a shinobi (I can't remember a single time where it was brought up that shinobi should have no emotions in part 2).These are just some more detailed reasons behind my mild disappointment in part 2:

Naruto has out of no where became a natural born genius surpassing all other natural geniuses such as Minato, Kakashi and Sasuke.

Since the beginning of part 1 I have always admired Naruto for his spirit and ingenuity. He was this nothing kid who through iron will, god like determination, and good old fashion ingenuity accomplished so much and started becoming not only a respectable ninja, but a ninja of great promise.

In my opinion part 2 completely ruins this. In part one the only way Naruto was capable of using the rasengan in such as short period of time was due to his ingenuity. He couldn't build the rotation fast enough with one hand, so he injected chakra at different angles using his other hand. He couldn't support the structure will supplying chakra and rotation so he made another clone to rotate and maintain the shape while he supplied the chakra. This was a display of his ingenuity and was an act of genius in my opinion. In part two he mastered a technique that took the possibly 60 year old Jiraiya constant training since he was 12 years old (the possibility of 48 years or more) to be able to use. This was sage mode, a technique that he required the additional help of two toad sages to be able to perform and a mode that he was never able to perfect. This very technique took Naruto 3 days to master and an additional week of not even using it to enhance. After the 3 days of training he was capable of using the mastered version of sage mode (no toad transformation other then the mandatory change in eyes) without the aid of anyone else. He was able to use this jutsu without the aid of two sage toads or anyone else for that matter. A week later after training for his kyuubi chakra mode he gained the ability to enter sage mode within seconds, something that with two sage toads gathering energy simultaneously takes much longer.

Not only this but his clone training method also bugs me. He spawns thousands upon thousands of clones in part 1 and not a single time did he ever even once realize he gained thousands upon thousands of memories when they died? Seems a little off to me, I mean I know he's not the brightest but gaining one thousand memories in an instant isn't something you need to be intelligent to notice. Not only that but it almost seems like the only person in the world who did notice was Kakashi as no one else attempts this insane training method (no one would be able to do it to the same degree as Naruto but you never even see someone spit out even one clone to simply double the training speed).

We then take a look at how easily Naruto has seemed to master the nine tailed foxes chakra and it just seems a little ridiculous as well. He spent a couple of hours balancing rocks and now he has complete mastery over his nine tailed fox mode. The only thing he can't do is balance negative and positive chakra, that's his one limitation. Also when he beat the nine-tails he made it look easy. One all out assault was all it took, and it made it seem that this omnipowerful demon who is the reason for most of the pain in Naruto's life could have been taken out at any point in time because he had his mother there to help him, but for some reason no one let him try earlier.

It also irritates me that after learning one wind technique Naruto is considered a greater wind element user then Temari (a self proclaimed status that no one denied), and the fact that despite the nine tails running out of chakra three times he is still able to enter nine tail fox mode, a little continuity would be nice is all I'm saying.

Aside from part 2 Naruto irritating me I also dislike the fact that there are so many missing nin in the series. By missing nin I am refering to the people who in part 1 were given an epic background and actual relevence in the series only to drop off the face of the Earth in part 2. These people include Rock Lee, Neji, Hinata, Kiba, Shino, Shikamaru (aside from one arc), Chouji, Ino, Tenten, Sakura (despite being the series' tritagonist), and many more. These characters have had little panel time in part 2 not to mention that they have had practically no character development and very little feats, not only this but these seemingly equal comrades in part 1 seem to have been completely left in the dust by Naruto and Sasuke almost to the point of being simple fodder in the war (not to say that they should be boosted to Naruto and Sasuke level but the fact that they are not even on their radar is kind of ridiculous).

Not only this but in part 1 they had continuous theme of what it takes to be a ninja, what ninja's have to do to become shinobi, how to become truly great shinobi, but in part 2 this theme has been left behind as much as the series' supporting characters. In part one there was a constant struggle of ninja's having to lose there emotions to become true shinobi, to always put the mission first, and even different methods of attaining power were cross examined (Haku's belief that one gains strength by protecting someone precious, Sasuke's belief that power is attained through hatred, Rock Lee's belief that only through hard work can true power be achieved, Neji's belief that power is determined through ones destiny and that those destined to be weak will be forever weak), but in part 2 we barely even hear Naruto's classic "My name is Naruto Uzumaki, and I'm going to become hokage" catch phrase, no do we hear of anyone's nindo, almost as if when you get strong enough you don't need it any more.

Anyways these are just some my personal complaints and dislikes, all originating in season 2 though, not enough problems to make me quite reading or even stop enjoying reading them, just enough issues to get me all riled up and ranting once in a while.


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## Baroxio (Jan 9, 2012)

^This. 

Sakura's case especially, when it comes to Character Develoment. She actually goes _backward_ each arc. She had SO much potential...

That, and everything you've been saying about Naruto's ridiculous greater-than-genius level growth is exactly what I've been saying since the Wind Training Arc. It's cheap, annoying, and it basically takes a dump on everything we loved about his original Part 1 character. I was fucking pissed when Naruto mastered Sage Mode as fast as he did, ESPECIALLY when Kishimoto went out of his way to show Jiraiya training for it back when he was like 12 years old. Seriously, Kishi?


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## CrazyAries (Jan 9, 2012)

I honestly did not care for Sage Mode on Naruto at first and preferred it as part of Jiraiya's arsenal.  However, the Kyuubi Mode made me appreciate SM more as part Naruto's options.  I like how Naruto needs to meditate to achieve Sage Mode and how calm he needs to be.  I was impressed by his clone's performance against the Edo Sandaime Raikage.  We were treated to another display of Naruto's resourcefulness.  Too bad that was not the real Naruto.

I have said some things about Naruto's rapid development but what bothers me about it are two things:  First, he showed little improvement over the timeskip, so his progress now looks inconsistent.  Second, we have seen little of Naruto's development as a character in Part 2.  I think that the jutsu are overwhelming the character and are there in place of internal development.

Beyond this, what really bothers me is that Naruto is missing the grittiness that he had as a 12-year-old.  I know that seems contradictory to what I said about Sage Mode, but I am really talking about Naruto's overall attitude out of battle.  He had a chip on his shoulder, but then he gained acceptance from the other villagers at the end of Part 1 and now he has to try to find an answer for peace.  That and his longtime focus on saving Sasuke have taken much of the bite from his character.


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## principito (Jan 11, 2012)

This last ten chapters are just a load of crap honestly


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## Ice Princess (Jan 14, 2012)

I don't like the flashbacks. They're annoying enough in the anime, but they got to fill the time somehow, in the manga however they're ridiculous. I'm reading and seeing parts of past chapters and quickly scrolling past them.

I also hate the fact all girls are in love with Sasuke. It's over the top and beyond silly. For example, the Mizukage (I think it was the Mizukage) commenting on his looks. Enough already! We get it Kishi, you love Sasuke.


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## skins (Jan 24, 2012)

I have to agree with that. :/ Sasuke isn't THAT good looking -_-;

I've been loving the way the manga's been going atm, but I cannot get over the way Sasuke has been developed. It's like he's gone mad, when I think of how he was at 12; he still wanted to kill Itachi but at least he was torn between his friends.

Now he's a ruthless asshole. 

I just feel like they've taken the darkness thing too much with him. I'm either hoping he dies or comes back to his senses.


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## BlazingCobaltX (Jan 25, 2012)

What I don't like (ATM):
- Flashbacks
- Sasuke
- NaruJesus
- Tsundere Kurama
- Naruto's arrogance
- Lack of Sakura


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Jan 30, 2012)

*Man Fuck This War!! The Alliance is Never gunna Loose!!!*

Not a single important character has died in the war yet!!!

and yet, it was about to happen! it was about to finally fucking happen!! gai and kakashi were about to get their shit Blasted! .... but oh wait! here comes super man naruto to save their asses!

and what about onoki? Now How the fuck did he tank 2 fucking meteors?! i smell a plot-shield somewhere 

Right now it seems to me that the alliance are going to win with a flawless victory. the juubi will never be revived and tobi, madara, and kabuto will all die horrible deaths.

i mean seriously? how the fuck is madara suppose to take on 5 kages? Hooooow?! Raikage is way to fast for him, Onoki can fly and atomize shit, Gaara can create ocean's worth of sand, mei has acid mist and tsunade?  idk. but i don't think that even madara can deal with all that shit there's just noooo fucking way!.

and what the fuck can tobi do? naruto is now over 9000, gai has the 8th gate just incase things get out of hand, kakashi has kamui, and the 5 divisions are on their way to help. and his jins are already getting fucked upp by bee and naruto. thats a little bit to much for tobi to handle.

and what of kabuto? he'll kill itachi, but he might become wounded like hell like how orochimaru was when he fought hiruzen.

The Alliance is never gunna lose this war. Fuck this shit!


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## Frawstbite (Jan 30, 2012)

rickmartin said:


> Not a single important character has died in the war yet!!!
> 
> and yet, it was about to happen! it was about to finally fucking happen!! gai and kakashi were about to get their shit Blasted! .... but oh wait! here comes super man naruto to save their asses!
> 
> ...





To be fair, you did set yourself up for it. And, yes, I know it sucks but you had to see it coming.


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## Mako (Jan 30, 2012)

The use of flashbacks. Sure it was a nice touch a hundred chapters ago - but come on. Now you see it in every chapter. (I know the flashbacks are being added to tie different stories together.)

I agree with many on here, there is WAY TOO much characters making an entrance. Now Kishi has to make a decision for each battle he plans out now. It's either having an anticipated battle in a short period of time or adding a "filler-type" battle into the story.

Kakashi's "rampage" moment was off-paneled and the majority of the ex-Akatsuki (Deidara, Sasori and etc) who were shatted by fodders. I have a feeling once the anime begins the war arc, the majority of the fillers will be the off-paneled scenes...

Other than that, I have nothing else to rant about. Oh well, whatever Kishimoto writes - we can't do anything but bitch about it


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## maupp (Feb 5, 2012)

*naruto is such a mama boy*

naruto is a mama boy...after both reading the manga and watching the anime i just realized that naruto is a mama boy...when he met his dad, the first thing he does is punch him but when he met mommy the first thing he does is hug her...such a mommy boy
on a side note, never let naruto and kushina fight again the kin-gin bros, they're going to get sealed in mere seconds...naruto and kushina conversations is full of ttebayos and ttebanes, easy win for the clouds bros..


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## PureWIN (Feb 5, 2012)

So would you have preferred to see Naruto punch his mother in the gut?


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## maupp (Feb 5, 2012)

PureWIN said:


> So would you have preferred to see Naruto punch his mother in the gut?


no way, naruto isnt sasuke


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## Zerst?ren (Feb 5, 2012)

They were entirely different situations.

With Minato Naruto had been alone for 16 years and suddenly when he is about to give in into the Kyuubis control the moron who sealed the Kyuubi in you, thus making everyone hate you and have a horrible life appears and calls you son.

With Kushina, Naruto had been explained by Minato, he knew he had parents who actually had faith in him, he was more in peace with himself when it came to that subject.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Feb 5, 2012)

maupp said:


> no way, naruto isnt sasuke



 And Sasuke isn?t Itachi. Sasuke would have never hurt his mother.


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## Imamember (Feb 5, 2012)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> And Sasuke isn?t Itachi. Sasuke would have never hurt his mother.



Pretty sure if his mother met him in a pocket dimension the same way kushina met naruto, and she tried to tell sasuke to let go of the hate he would amaterasu her to hell! without even blinking his eye


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## Last Rose of Summer (Feb 5, 2012)

Imamember said:


> Pretty sure if his mother met him in a pocket dimension the same way kushina met naruto, and she tried to tell sasuke to let go of the hate he would amaterasu her to hell! without even blinking his eye



It?s impossible to Amaterasu someone without blinking the eye before, so: no.


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## alchemy1234 (Feb 5, 2012)

I can't believe he let kushina punching him slide. I would've made her taste my fists of fury if she did that to me.


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## Golden Circle (Feb 5, 2012)

>Implying being a mama's boy is bad 
You touch my mother...
I BREAK YOUR FACE

Seriously, I would love to see what Naruto would do if someone did something to Kushina.


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## maupp (Feb 5, 2012)

Golden Circle said:


> >Implying being a mama's boy is bad
> You touch my mother...
> I BREAK YOUR FACE
> 
> Seriously, I would love to see what Naruto would do if someone did something to Kushina.


he would go BM...remember when raikage was trying to insult minato, naruto was super pissed, now imagine someone trying to hurt or do smthing bad....naruto would instantly kurama bijuudama that person no matter how weak or strong that person is


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## Golden Circle (Feb 5, 2012)

maupp said:


> he would go BM...remember when raikage was trying to insult minato, naruto was super pissed, now imagine someone trying to hurt or do smthing bad....naruto would instantly kurama bijuudama that person no matter how weak or strong that person is


HELL YES!


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## Leuconoe (Feb 5, 2012)

If Kushina was my mother, you'd bet I'd be a mama's boy. :9


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## Whirlpool (Feb 5, 2012)

You would too if Kushina was your mom :ho


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## Whirlpool (Feb 5, 2012)

maupp said:


> naruto is a mama boy...after both reading the manga and watching the anime i just realized that naruto is a mama boy...when he met his dad, the first thing he does is punch him but when he met mommy the first thing he does is hug her...such a mommy boy
> on a side note, never let naruto and kushina fight again the kin-gin bros, they're going to get sealed in mere seconds...naruto and kushina conversations is full of ttebayos and ttebanes, easy win for the clouds bros..



Dont you mean 'believe it' and 'Ya' know'


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## James Bond (Feb 5, 2012)

Depends how your raised... oh wait


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## Yakkai (Feb 5, 2012)

The OP reminds me of a guy who wears sunglasses to chick movies so no one can see him crying. Heaven forbid Naruto shows a little tenderness to the mom he hasn't seen in sixteen years.


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## martryn (Feb 12, 2012)

*martryn's issues with the Naruto manga*

I have been saying this in just about every Library thread I post in: the manga is complete shit now.  It's irritated me enough, again, that I feel the need to express it.  Really rage about it.  But I've decided that the best way to do that is to attack the manga point by point.  So I'll be examining the various arcs of the manga and expressing, in my opinion, what was done right, and what could have been done better. 

1.  *Introduction Arc*​
The worst arc of the first half.  It consisted of the first eight chapters of the manga.  Chapter one we're introduced to Naruto, and he's an asshole.  Glaring plotholes emerge.  A lot of Konoha ninja are shown on page never to be seen from again.  Chapter two introduced us to a shitty kid that serves no purpose in the manga.  Chapter three we finally get into Sasuke and Sakura, and the bell test and Kakashi finish the arc up. 

_What Went Right:_  Well, the bell test was actually pretty neat.  And we discovered the scope of Konoha.

_What Went Wrong:_  Everything else.  Introducing Konohamaru was stupid, since we get the impression he'll be a major character in the manga from the start.  The very first chapter was full of plot holes and inconsistencies.  The explanation of the ninja academy stuff also made for some interesting number crunching.

_What Would martryn Do?_  Drop Konohamaru from the manga entirely.  Draw the first chapter out a little longer and make the entire theft of the scroll where Naruto learns his signature technique a bigger part of the arc.  Give more background for Mizuki.  Show us more about the care of this 12 year old and how he either lives at home alone, or is quartered in some sort of boarding school environment.  Give more information about the structure of ninja villages in general.  I would change the structure of the academy, as well.  And I would give Sakura... something.  A single technique or a complete mastery of the basics... something.

*2.  The Land of Waves Arc*​
Some consider this the best arc of the first half of the manga.  It runs up to chapter 33.  It consists of Kakashi's team going to that bridge place and fighting Zabuza and Haku.  

_What Went Right:_  Just about everything.  Zabuza was a fucking awesome villain.  Haku made a great challenge for the young heroes.  Nothing was entirely out of place and everything made sense, more or less, within the plot.  

_What Went Wrong:_  Didn't like the fact that Naruto hid within the shuriken that Sasuke threw at Zabuza or whatever.  Doesn't make sense.  How did Sasuke manage to hurl Naruto?  Wish that was handled differently.  Also think that Haku should have looked like a boy.  Shit was gay. 

_What Would martryn Do?_  I wouldn't change much.  I liked the way Sakura easily mastered the wall climbing training, and such successes should have been more common and more highly emphasized.  And I'd change that first encounter against Zabuza so that Sasuke and Naruto freed Kakashi in a different way.

*3.  The Chuunin Exam Arc*​
My personal favorite arc of the series, and the longest arc as well.  It introduced us to the large secondary cast that would later be dropped entirely, as well as one of the greatest villains of the manga, Orochimaru.  It was characterized by some interesting tests and a series of 1-on-1 battles that always prove popular in anime.

_What Went Right:_  Lots of things worked well in this arc.  I liked how original the first two tests were, and loved seeing the fights in the third test.  Character design was amazing, and the vast number of unique techniques... a lot of fun. 

_What Went Wrong:_  Well... some of the fights didn't turn out the way, honestly, they should have.  I can understand the main characters being the heroes and winning the day, but Naruto at this point didn't have anything but drive and his shadow clones, so there was no reason he should have beat Kiba.  And Sasuke couldn't use chakra, and he managed to pull out a victory over Yoroi.  I'm still upset that Naruto used burrowing to defeat Neji.  Would much rather he just used his hax demon fox bullshit.  And then there's Tenten and Sakura.  With all the build-up for Neji and Lee's team, you'd think Tenten would be capable of at least pressuring Temari.  That fight made her entire existence a joke for fans.  And Sakura still doesn't have a single technique at this point.  The other rookie 9 have something to set themselves apart from each other, but Sakura at this point still has nothing new.

_What Would martryn Do?_  I'd change nothing up until the prelims.  Then I'd have Sasuke lose due to the curse seal.  Naruto vs. Kiba would also go to Kiba.  Sakura would demonstrate a unique technique of some sort, maybe some sort of chakra shield or... something.  Kiba would then forfeit to Neji, and Gaara would massacre Yoroi which would trigger the invasion arc.

*4.  The Invasion of Konoha Arc​*
An entire arc more or less devoted to the 3rd Hokage vs. Orochimaru, and Naruto vs. Gaara.  Some interesting moments from Shino and Shikamaru, as well.

_What Went Right:_  The entire tone of this arc was great.  Konoha was under surprise attack, their leader was trapped in a battle to the death against a former pupil, and the entire village was in danger of being destroyed by a rampaging monster and their only hope was that shithead Naruto.  

_What Went Wrong:_  For Sasuke supposedly being such a badass, he got his ass kicked by Gaara pretty quick.  That sucked.  Also, with the massive power curve the manga eventually degraded into, and with Sarutobi being the "god of the shinobi" or whatever they called him, the fight between him and Orochimaru lacked the high powered techniques the Battledome loves jerking off to.  Would have loved to see more action across the entire village, too, with people like Neji and Kurenai, and fucking Genma, getting in on the action. 

_What Would martryn Do?_  Sasuke would have put up a much better fight, and wouldn't have been in such poor condition when Naruto arrived.  The two of them together would then go on to defeat Gaara.  We'd see more Asuma action when he saved Shikamaru.  A better explanation of the Edo Tensei technique would have been given to prevent massive arguments dealing with Sarutobi's abilities.  And Genma would have kicked the shit out of Baki to get revenge for the death of Hayate.

*5.  The Search for Tsunade Arc​*
Here we get the introduction of Itachi and Kisame, and the journey to recruit the fifth hokage, Tsunade.  The arc ends with a pretty awesome three way battle against Orochimaru. 

_What Went Right:_  Sasuke's interaction with Itachi was gold.  Itachi and Kisame encountering the jounin was pretty solid, too, including the hilarity with Gai.  Epic sannin battle was awesome epic in scope.

_What Went Wrong:_  Itachi's wording after the encounter with Jiraiya confused a lot of people.  Kabuto hanging with the sannin also didn't make sense.  Kakashi shit his pants around Orochimaru, yet Kabuto, roughly the same level as Kakashi, fought evenly with Tsunade.  Giving a medic nin a blood phobia?  Fuck that.  People look at that entire fight and quote it as a reason Tsunade sucks, forgetting the massive amount of damage she can cause with a single pinky finger.

_What Would martryn Do?_  If Itachi was fleeing from Jiraiya because Jiraiya was a bad ass and Itachi didn't want to get his shit kicked in, he should have just said it.  Oh, wait, he did.  Even better, Itachi actually fights Jiraiya for a bit, with Kisame backup, and they're forced to retreat.  Tsunade should never have had a blood phobia.  She can be weak from something else, but not a blood phobia.  And it should be perfectly clear that Tsunade can kick the shit out of Orochimaru.  Naruto learning the rasengan was alright, I guess, since he has to do it a certain way, but Naruto landing a rasengan on a clear jounin level nin like Kabuto should never have happened without massive help.  I think if Shizune managed to do something to Kabuto so he had trouble dodging, and then Naruto landing the blow, that should have worked out fine.


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## martryn (Feb 12, 2012)

*6.  The Sasuke Retrieval Arc​*
The last arc in the first half of the manga.  Sasuke joins the Sound 4 and attempts to make a clean break from the village, gets some curse seal hax, and Shikamaru leads a team after him.  Arc quickly becomes a series of one-on-one fights that are so popular in manga.  

_What Went Right:_  The Sound 4 were introduced earlier in the manga during the Orochimaru vs. Sarutobi match, so that was nice foreshadowing.  Every character that played a major role in this arc had an awesome badass moment.  Chouji had his pills, Neji had his 64 palm strike thingy, Kiba got the giant two-headed dog, Shikamaru showed some amazing analytical skills, Lee had drunken boxing, and Temari had a badass animal summon that was promptly forgotten.  At the time we were all worried that Chouji and Neji had died, and we really didn't know how the final confrontation between Naruto and Sasuke would end.  And then we get the nice reveal of Akatsuki right before the time skip.

_What Went Wrong:_  My only real complaint was the lack of a cool new show offy jutsu for Kankurou, one of my favorite nins.  Sure, new puppet and all, but that's hardly as flashy as being able to chop down a forest.  Also a lot of complaints about both Chouji and Neji being left alive at the end of the arc, since they were both given beautiful death scenes.

_What Would martryn Do?_  Story would have been the same, really.  Would have shown more of the Genma vs. the Sound 4, since Genma has always been my favorite character.  And I would have also left either Chouji or Neji dead for good.  I personally would have left Chouji dead, as I prefer Neji as a character and would want to see more development for him in part II.  Also would have changed the cliche ultimate attacks to end the Naruto vs. Sasuke encounter.  Would rather have had Sasuke legit kick Naruto's ass than the let's-put-it-all-in-one-go maneuver.  And all that stuff with Itachi slaughtering his clan?  Yeah, would have shown Itachi ruthlessly killing the elderly, the young, and the clearly non-combatants to really show Itachi as being a bad guy worthy of dying.

*7.  The Kazekage Rescue Arc​*
The start of part II, this arc deals with Naruto coming back to Konoha, seeing all his former peers, and going off to rescue Gaara.  The arc begins the same way the manga began: with a bell test.  Which is a pretty neat idea.  We are then introduced to Deidara and Sasori, two Akatsuki members, and we watch the fight where Deidara captures Gaara.  We get some fights with Itachi and Kisame, Team Gai makes an appearance, and then the major battles against Sasori and Deidara. The arc ends with the introduction of Tobi, and the revival of Gaara.

_What Went Right:_  Part II character designs were pretty awesome.  Gaara makes an incredibly impressive kage.  Akatsuki sets the bar high.  The second bell test was a great way to ease readers into part II and the new abilities of Naruto and Sakura.

_What Went Wrong:_  Part II really didn't get off to a great start in retrospect.  Naruto spent two and a half years training with Jiraiya, but upon his return, he really doesn't have anything to show for it, other than being a little bit faster, stronger, etc.  Every other character we've seen in part II has shown major improvements.  Tangible improvements.  But Naruto's improvements are in things we can't really see and have to be told about.  It seems as if Naruto has gained more power since part II began than he gained off screen, which doesn't make a lot of sense. 

Also, the timeskip was badly handled.  Jumping so far into the future... lots of potential for arcs in two and a half years.  I like the Kakashi Gaiden, but why couldn't we get an arc for all of the other teams during the timeskip?  Maybe show the characters slowly grow up over the course of three small arcs where the investigate things of plot relevance... or not.  

Team Gai is present in the arc, but without really doing anything.  We see Gai vs. Kisame, but we miss out on seeing Lee, Neji, and Tenten improve.  

And the Sasori fight was a bit of a stretch.  I know Sakura had Chiyo there to back her up, but she really didn't have any reason to live through that encounter.  And moving straight to Deidara, I see in the Battledome a lot of threads with Deidara breaking down to the fact that he can fly so he automatically wins, and yet he was flying with Kakashi and Naruto giving chase, and he somehow couldn't lose them, and in fact managed to lose his arm.  Deidara himself wasn't that impressive during the fight with Gaara.  He admittedly was low on clay going into it, and Gaara badly crushed his arm and would have won the fight quite handedly if Deidara hadn't resorted to attacking the village.

The arc ends with Gaara being revived, which is also bullshit.  A bring me back to life jutsu is retarded, and Orochimaru already has one of those.  We don't need two.  And it was used twice in the arc!  And then there's Tobi.  I don't know what the big plan was there, but why, after what we now know, does he act like he does, and why did he want to join Akatsuki if he was already running it from the shadows?  And why isn't he Obito, since that makes total sense.

_What Would martryn Do?_  Ok, so Gaara is attacked, captured, and killed.  Terribly tragic.  The village mourns him.  Someone else becomes Kazekage.  Seriously, bringing people back to life is a copout.  If you're gonna use it, use it on Sakura.  And the fight against Sasori should have been four on one for Team Good Guys to have a chance at winning.  Let Team Gai chase down Deidara and barely miss out on capturing him.  Kisame and Itachi are soundly defeated, and they are actually the real copies of themselves, not some made up plot no jutsu.  They're still alive, and maybe make the excuse that they're exhausted after three days of extracting a demon from a boy's soul.  And leave Tobi out entirely.  We don't need someone else running around with eye jutsus.  Quota has been filled.  In part one.  And yet part II is all about the eye jutsus.

*8.  The Sasuke and Sai Arc​*
This arc introduces us to Sai and Yamato, two characters that were supposed to go on to be major characters, but never really did.  They all go on a mission to... capture or... something Orochumaru.  Orochimaru and Naruto fight.  Sai temporarily defects.  Party at Orochimaru's.  We see Sasuke again for the first time.  Some boring shit with Sai which doesn't really matter.  And then everyone goes home.

_What Went Right:_  We got to see more of Orochimaru's power, and we also get to see how awesome Shikamaru and Chouji are in Part II.  The build up and reveal of Sasuke was a huge event, and seeing how awesome he was... was awesome.  Also that stuff with Naruto and the Kyuubi, and how Naruto started to realize that it was bad juju to rely on the Kyuubi's power every time he got into a bind.

_What Went Wrong:_  Everything else.  There was really no need to introduce us to Sai, to Root, to Yamato, or to Danzo.  Sai was a fucking queer character with an exposed midriff, and he continues the art motif started by Deidara and Sasori, which was lame since this was a brand new arc.  Yamato had a cool character design, but was again an unnecessary character.  If they really needed to replace Sasuke on the team, they should have brought Shino along, he having the least amount of exposure among the rookie 9.  If Yamato was an ANBU captain, then we should have had some of the former rookies as ANBU members at this point in the manga.  Orochimaru's reasons for leaving Naruto's team alive (that being the enemy of my enemy is my friend) was bullshit.  Akatsuki want the Kyuubi, so killing Naruto would help deny them that.  Sakura and Sai are small fry when it comes to Akatsuki, and he could have continued his experiments with Yamato.  Not to mention the fact that they know where his hideout is now.  

_What Would martryn Do?_  Form a team that consisted of Yamato, Genma (or Anko, or Raidou, etc etc), Naruto and Sakura.  Leave Sai out of it.  Leave ROOT out of it.  If you have to have Danzo, have him be an elder that works in the shadows, or the corrupt leader of ANBU.  And don't give him a sharingan, unless you're going to claim that he collects all of the clans' secrets, including bug use, shadow techniques, etc.  Naruto fights Oro, but instead of Oro running away like a pussy, Naruto instead goes berserker and starts hurting Sakura and team member 4 (killing even?) until Oro leaves laughing at the joke that is Naruto.  The meeting of Sasuke and Naruto doesn't have to happen, but if you're going to force it, have it emphasized that Sasuke is a mean mother fucker now, up to the point of killing someone, maybe even Yamato.  I would personally leave this arc out and replace it with an arc of Konoha nins trying to find bijuus before Akatsuki does.


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## martryn (Feb 12, 2012)

*9.  The Hidan and Kakuzu Arc*​
We are introduced pretty quick to Hidan and Kakuzu and their relationship.  We find out that the Akatsuki are hunting, successfully, the rest of the bijuus.  We get element training for Naruto, and learn that Naruto basically has the power of Multiple Man from X-Factor.  We have the bullshit of Hidan vs. Asuma's entire team.  And then the end game battle against Hidan and Kakuzu.  In my opinion, this was the first arc that went too far.  

_What Went Right:_  The two Akatsuki members of this arc have perfect villain personalities.  We get several entire chapters relating to Asuma's team, and we even get some minor ninja action in the form of Kotetsu and Izumo.  All the backstory involved with Asuma was great, and his death scene was a pretty good one. 

_What Went Wrong:_  They killed Asuma!  And in total bullshit fashion, too.  Tobi's interaction with Deidara doesn't make any sense given later events.  This arc begins the downfall of the theme of hardwork defeating genius, when Naruto's hax demon fox and bloodline chakra reserves allows him to undergo the most hax training ever.  It's the equivalent of that room in Dragonball where they go to train and time doesn't pass, except in this case it only works for Naruto.  And despite this being complete bullshit hax, Naruto hardly uses this ability again.  

We then find out that Asuma is a badass, and that with his awesome abilities, he could have decapitated Kisame the first time they met, but decided not to.  He did decapitate Hidan, which should have been the end of it, but Hidan is, for some reason, immortal.  The reason behind this is religion, of all things.  

The final showdown between Hidan and Kakuzu has been called into question several times as well.  Shikamaru displays a level of skill that seems inconsistent with both earlier and later incarnations of himself.  Chouji and Ino manage to just stand around and get in the way.  And they bring Naruto in to display his awesome new jutsu, which is so awesome that he can only use it once and is then forbidden to ever use it again.  And he still didn't land the killing blow.  The fact that he landed any blow is weird, since up until that point, he hadn't shown the ability or speed to keep up with Kakuzu, and Kakuzu seemed to fall into an obvious trap, or whatever.  And Kakashi still says that Naruto has surpassed him, even though I didn't see it, and I don't think any of the other manga readers did as well.  But since Kishimoto said it, I guess it must be true.  But it's actually total shit. 

_What Would martryn Do?_  Not include this arc.  Immortals?  Sure.  The character design here was solid, and their abilities were solid.  I would have given more screentime to the other Rookie 9, here, and continued the plotline of finding the bijuus before Akatsuki could.  There were 9 Akatsuki member, and 9 rookies.  12 with the sand ninjas.  11 without Sasuke.  Let the rookie nins take out or at least fight Akatsuki in teams, similar to Asuma's team in this arc.  I'm ok with elemental training, but I disapprove of Naruto's training technique.  Seems like other ninjas would use it, even if they could only use a few bunshins at a time.  Also, where are the rookie nine that joined ANBU?  

*10.  The Itachi Pursuit Arc​*
This piece of shit arc starts with Sasuke's complete dominance of Orochumaru, and the death of the greatest villain in the manga.  Sasuke then puts together his little team of ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) to go after Itachi, and Konoha put together their team of ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) to go after Itachi.  Sasuke then fights against Deidara and uses some bullshit.  Itachi appears to people.  Tobi appears to people.  Jiraiya fights Pain and dies.  Itachi fights Sasuke and dies.  And we learn Itachi was really a good guy. 

_What Went Right:_  I liked Team Hebi.  It gave the Rookie 9 more things to fight.  

_What Went Wrong:_  The entire rest of the arc.  Orochimaru dies because the sharingan can apparently do everything.  It can gain control of Orochimaru's own subconscious.  For the one person that has been the enemy longer than anyone else in the manga, you'd think we'd get some sort of awesome fight to the death or something.  We don't.  And somehow Sasuke gets all of Orochimaru's snake techniques.  And... so does Kabuto.  What?

The plan to find Sasuke by finding Itachi is also pretty much bullshit.  They don't know where Itachi is, and they don't know where Sasuke is.  Why not look for the one you want to find instead of the one you think the one you want to find wants to find?  And only a week or so prior to this Naruto, Sai, Yamato, and Sakura couldn't defeat Sasuke.  What changed that makes Naruto, Yamato and Hinata with a dog a viable team to bring Sasuke in, much less Itachi?  

Then they kill off Jiraiya to make Pain look like a badass.  But Pain ends up being a pawn in the end regardless.  But, during this fight, we learn that despite all the lessons we were supposed to learn in part I, Naruto is the chosen one, and it's his destiny to be badass.  We also learn that Naruto is the son of the 4th, which we pretty much already knew, and he's got a badass bloodline.  So he's the chosen one, has demon fox hax, and the blood of a former kage all in his favor. 

The Itachi fight against Sasuke just demonstrated how fucking hax the bullshit sharingan really is.  You've got the genjutsu torture technique, fire that burns everything technique, and then the shield and sword of impenetrable badassness technique.  Not to mention plot no jutsu techniques whenever it's needed, like dominating Orochimaru's mind, and implanting abilities for no reason.  Complete retardation.  And Orochimaru reappears and gets one shotted all in a page, turning him into a complete joke.  At one point Kakashi was shitting himself just standing in Oro's presence, and now he's not even a distraction in a battle.  At one point the God of Shinobi fought to a stalemate against Orochimaru, but now he can be dominated by a creature he's in the middle of mindfucking.  

And then the big reveal, that Itachi is a good guy.  What a load of crap!  Itachi was awesome as a badguy, willing to massacre his family for crazy reasons, torture his brother, and drive him to revenge.  But now he's a good guy who massacred his family because he was a... pacifist?  What the fuck?  And he brutally tortured Sasuke to... protect him?  What the fuck?  Make him stronger?  Seriously?  And he joined an evil terrorist organization, and operated in it for half a decade or so to... keep an eye on it?  Huh?  Because Tobi was already... attached... to it.  He was?  Da fuck?  Apparently Itachi also had a lover that he massacred during the Uchiha clan extermination.  That's some fucked up shit.  But he's totally a good guy despite all this.  It was all preventative.  Seriously.  Whatever.  Bullshit retcon.  Also, Itachi had a fatal illness this entire time because that makes him even more tragic.  Apparently the plan was to die by Sasuke's hands so Sasuke would be a hero and redeem the Uchiha name. 

Well, Itachi, you kinda fucked that up, didn't you?  Sasuke has sworn to utterly wipe out Konoha, and the Uchiha name would forever be tainted.  Oh, wait, since Sasuke is the last Uchiha, and you've made him gay for killing you, there will be no more Uchihas.  The name dies with Sasuke.  Damn, Itachi, you fucked up on all accounts.  

Hey, guys, remember when Sasuke was loved by Konoha, when he was 12 and head of his graduating class?  Remember when he was worshiped by all the hot little 12 year old ninja bitches?  Remember when people showed up to the Chuunin exam finals just to see him fight?  Yeah, back before he went rogue because of his brother?  God damn, Itachi, worst plan ever.  

Fucking shit, this is getting too long.  To be continued...


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## PoinT_BlanK (Feb 12, 2012)

Arc #5

My problem with what you woulda done:

Minato and Itachi were established as the benchmarks early in the manga. Having a transitional caretaker like Jiraiya pushing him+Kisame woulda be silly/not make sense.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 12, 2012)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> Arc #5
> 
> My problem with what you woulda done:
> 
> Minato and Itachi were established as the benchmarks early in the manga. Having a transitional caretaker like Jiraiya pushing him+Kisame woulda be silly/not make sense.



Naruto wanted to surpass _ALL_ Hokages, not just Minato. Jiraiya became Naruto's benchmark, Minato even wanted Naruto to be just like Jiraiya; someone he considers to be the finest shinobi, a man of true skill. Minato also practically named Naruto after Jiraiya (Jiraiya's book was like an autobiography where "Naruto" was an allusion to himself). Naruto virtually is a mini-Jiraiya, Tsunade even calls Naruto that.


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## PoinT_BlanK (Feb 12, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Naruto wanted to surpass _ALL_ Hokages, not just Minato. Jiraiya became Naruto's benchmark, Minato even wanted Naruto to be just like Jiraiya; the greatest shinobi he knows, and practically named Naruto after Jiraiya (Jiraiya's book was like an autobiography where "Naruto" was an allusion to himself). And naruto virtually is a mini-Jiraiya, Tsunade even calls Naruto that.



I don't see how that's of any relevance considering what happened after in the manga.

Oro became Sasuke's transitional caretaker as Jiraiya was to Naruto, forming a parallel. When both were surpassed the sights were focused on Minato & Itachi again.

So Martryn having Jiraya push Itachi+Kisame wouldn't make sense unless the manga took a whole different path altogether.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 12, 2012)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> I don't see how that's of any relevance considering what happened after in the manga.
> 
> Oro became Sasuke's transitional caretaker as Jiraiya was to Naruto, forming a parallel. When both were surpassed the sights were focused on Minato & Itachi again.
> 
> So Martryn havon Jiraya push Itachi+Kisame wouldn't make sense unless the manga took a whole different path altogether.



Minato set Jiraiya to be Naruto's benchmark before he was born, even right now Naruto is carrying on Jiraiya's dreams. What you're saying only works if they had the same number of "transitional caretakers." Sasuke had Kakashi, Orochimaru, and now Tobi. Naruto has had Iruka, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Yamato, Fukasaku, and Killer Bee. 

When Naruto completed the Rasenshuriken and "surpassed" Minato, the 4th Hokage, Sasuke at the same time reversed Orochimaru's soul transfer and absorbed the would-be 4th Hokage and some of his abilities.

Then Jiraiya died and Sage Mode was passed onto Naruto, while at the same time Itachi died and the Mangekyou Sharingan was passed onto Sasuke. 

Now their benchmarks seem to be Madara and Hashirama, Sasuke got the EMS and Naruto is getting control of all the Bijuus.


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## Cyphon (Feb 12, 2012)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> So Martryn having Jiraya push Itachi+Kisame wouldn't make sense unless the manga took a whole different path altogether.



The thing is Jiraiya did technically push them. Itachi needed his 2nd best technique to escape and Kisame seemed a bit scared/worried. All Martyn really says is to flesh the fight out some. Have a little more one on one detail instead of the way it happened. 

And continuing even now in pt 2 Kishi continues to lump Itachi and Jiraiya together, not Minato.


And a bit more thread related.....I pretty much agree with what you have said so far Martyn though we disagree in minor areas.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 12, 2012)

Hey, remember Martyn, Kabuto said that Tsunade was out of shape in that fight and Kabuto still was taking soldier pills. 



Cyphon said:


> The thing is Jiraiya did technically push them. Itachi needed his 2nd best technique to escape and Kisame seemed a bit scared/worried. All Martyn really says is to flesh the fight out some. Have a little more one on one detail instead of the way it happened.
> 
> And continuing even now in pt 2 Kishi continues to lump Itachi and Jiraiya together, not Minato.
> 
> ...


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## BlazingCobaltX (Feb 12, 2012)

I can't wait for you to rant on the War arc.


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## Drums (Feb 12, 2012)

If there's _that_ many things you'd like to change, remind me again, why are you still reading this manga?


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## PoinT_BlanK (Feb 12, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> The thing is Jiraiya did technically push them. Itachi needed his 2nd best technique to escape and Kisame seemed a bit scared/worried. All Martyn really says is to flesh the fight out some. Have a little more one on one detail instead of the way it happened.
> 
> And continuing even now in pt 2 Kishi continues to lump Itachi and Jiraiya together, not Minato.
> 
> ...



The circumstances shouldn't be ignored.

Itachi was dismissive towards Jiraiya during the whole affair. Jiraiya had an enemy with the back turned to him, element of surprise and time on his side and the best he managed was to push itachi to escape from a situation he pretty much thought of as inescapable..

This thread is heading to a place we all know..

Anyways, UltimateDeadpool I honestly didn't read your last post but if you think that having jiraiya at that point push itachi+kisame then come back and hold the place he holds/held later on in the manga makes sense fair play to you. O merely stated my problem with Martryn's ideas.


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## Udontard4ever (Feb 12, 2012)

eliminate konohamaru cause he's irrelevant and give more panel time to mizuki?

oh well


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## Cyphon (Feb 12, 2012)

martryn said:


> _What Would martryn Do?_  Drop Konohamaru from the manga entirely.



I just want to point out my biggest problem with this that I tend to bring up as often as an oppurtunity presents itself. 

We learn he is the grandson of the 3rd Hokage, The Professor, God of Shinobi, strongest Kage etc.....

We later learn that Asuma is the thirds son and is also famous in his own right as one of the 12 ninja guardians or whatever they were called. 

So basically you have this famous lineage or name "Sarutobi" and we know nothing of where Konohamaru comes from. Are his parents not famous? Was his mom or dad the son or daughter of one of the most famous people in the ninja world? Where is this info? It hasn't even been hinted at in the DB's or anywhere.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 12, 2012)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> The circumstances shouldn't be ignored.
> 
> Itachi was dismissive towards Jiraiya during the whole affair. Jiraiya had an enemy with the back turned to him, element of surprise and time on his side and the best he managed was to push itachi to escape from a situation he pretty much thought of as inescapable..
> 
> ...



Jiraiya said he'd kill Itachi and Kisame, neither contested that outcome. Itachi even said before that he'd draw against Jiraiya, that isn't being dismissive either. And Sasuke demanded that he get the opportunity to kill Itachi, Jiraiya and Kisame were both honorable enough to wait as the two brothers handled their family business. And even with Itachi's back to Jiraiya, Kisame was guarding Itachi's back. Kisame would absorb ninjutsu, deflect kunais, and hinder movement. 

It is, perhaps we should stop. 

I don't understand what you mean here.


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## Sniffers (Feb 12, 2012)

*My take...*

*Arc 1:* Agreed. I'd also make it a bigger effort to actually steal a forbidden scroll. As I recall Naruto got it a little too easily. Loved the bell test btw.

*Arc 2:* This arc was fine. I'm cool with the shuriken trick as well.

*Arc 3:* I think it's better for the story and rivalry if Naruto and Sasuke progressed further in the Exams than you suggest. To overcome the power of the other rookies I'd suggest that the Curse Seal was less cripling to Sasuke and that Naruto relied on Fox chakra more.

*Arc 4:* Sarutobi vs Orochimaru should've indeed have had more _oomf_. Also disliked the looooooong rope pull Shiki Fuuin battle. Other than that I disagree with Sasuke helping to defeat Gaara. The idea was that Sasuke got an inferiority complex (to Naruto) there which is vital for his leaving the village. Also, Naruto vs Gaara is special in that they were both Jinchuuriki and that Naruto was reaching out to him. They were in the same position. Sasuke running around would've hurt this parallel.

*Arc 5:* Jiraiya making two Akatsuki retreat would immediately hurt the hype of these new villains and also would've waste Orochimaru's hype for Itachi. It's true people were confused, hence I'd propose that'd was more clear that Jiraiya was in the tight spot and that he questioned why the hell they retreated. This would also better tie in with Itachi's mysterious motives and it'd also better fit to have Itachi as super powerful being Sasuke's benchmark and all. Tsunade's blood phobia was also stupid, I agree. The Sannin battle was relatively cool.


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## Cyphon (Feb 12, 2012)

Hmm.....Now that I think about it I always thought it would have made sense for Itachi and Jiraiya to be working together. Jiraiya was Konoha's best spy, completed more missions than anyone else and was definitely trusted by Hiruzen and was in line to be the fifth. Of course that doesn't necessarily have to tie in with these arcs but maybe if we got some sign from Itachi to Jiraiya during the arc in question......So Jiraiya probably should have known the truth about Itachi and maybe they could have been in cahoots. Not sure how to fit it all in neatly because with those 2 working together the manga would just end because all bad guys would flee......


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## PoinT_BlanK (Feb 12, 2012)

Oh I read it now. What I said works perfectly. The number of caretakers they've had is of little importance.

Minato wanting Naruto to be like Jiraiya also makes no difference to the fact that Minato being a finish line naruto has/had to cross after he crossed Jiraiyas.

Sasuke getting MS is not the same as Naruto completing SM either. At that point Tobi made it clear Itachi was superior and coulda killed Sasuke at any point had he wanted such..getting MS put Sasuke on the same terms as Itachi whereas in Naruto's case getting SM made him surpass Jiraiya seeing as how Jiraiya'a SM was incomplete.

Sasuke only progressed further than Itachi by achieving EMS. This is highlighted by the fact that when Sasuke was parading his MS he had a superior version of amaterasu than Itachi's but still had a inferior version of tsukuyomi. Itachi's susano tilted the balance towards Itachi due to its special items.

Sasuke with MS was at best in terms with Itachi. Naruto with SM had left Jiraiya behind.


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## Udontard4ever (Feb 12, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Arc 1:* Agreed. I'd also make it a bigger effort to actually steal a forbidden scroll. As I recall Naruto got it a little too easily.



that was the only way naruto could pull it off, considering his power level at the time


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## Cyphon (Feb 12, 2012)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> Sasuke with MS was at best in terms with Itachi. Naruto with SM had left Jiraiya behind.



I don't mean to keep harping on this but by your logic Minato was left behind as well because Pa lumped both Jiraiya and Minato together. So that still doesn't tie Minato in with Itachi.

And to take it further it kind of worked out the same way. Sasuke with MS "failed" to surpass Itachi (even though that was never his goal anyway) and Naruto "failed" to defeat Pain/Nagato with SM which was the point of surpassing Jiraiya with SM.


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## Gaawa-chan (Feb 12, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> *Arc 3:* I think it's better for the story and rivalry if Naruto and Sasuke progressed further in the Exams than you suggest. To overcome the power of the other rookies I'd suggest that the Curse Seal was less cripling to Sasuke and that Naruto relied on Fox chakra more.



I second this.  All you'd have to do is change the time at which the preliminaries change; by having them not occur immediately after the FoD, the problem is solved.



> *Arc 4:* Sarutobi vs Orochimaru should've indeed have had more _oomf_. Also disliked the looooooong rope pull Shiki Fuuin battle. Other than that I disagree with Sasuke helping to defeat Gaara. The idea was that Sasuke got an inferiority complex (to Naruto) there which is vital for his leaving the village. Also, Naruto vs Gaara is special in that they were both Jinchuuriki and that Naruto was reaching out to him. They were in the same position. Sasuke running around would've hurt this parallel.


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## Sniffers (Feb 12, 2012)

lol a Itachi vs Jiraiya debate again? The usual players are present I see.



Udontard4ever said:


> that was the only way naruto could pull it off, considering his power level at the time


Not saying he has to fight, but to get it as easily as he did was stupid. A little more effort to get a secret scroll rather than a one-page success would've made sense to me.



Gaawa-chan said:


> I second this.  All you'd have to do is change the time at which the preliminaries change; by having them not occur immediately after the FoD, the problem is solved.








FUTURE VISION EDIT


Cyphon from the future said:


> Looking back that technique shouldn't have even been on a secret/forbidden scroll. So that is kind of stupid as well.


Ageed.


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## Cyphon (Feb 12, 2012)

Looking back that technique shouldn't have even been on a secret/forbidden scroll. So that is kind of stupid as well.


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## PoinT_BlanK (Feb 12, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Jiraiya said he'd kill Itachi and Kisame, neither contested that outcome. Itachi even said before that he'd draw against Jiraiya, that isn't being dismissive either. And Sasuke demanded that he get the opportunity to kill Itachi, Jiraiya and Kisame were both honorable enough to wait as the two brothers handled their family business. And even with Itachi's back to Jiraiya, Kisame was guarding Itachi's back. Kisame would absorb ninjutsu, deflect kunais, and hinder movement.
> 
> It is, perhaps we should stop.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean here.



Jiraiya said you wonct get Naruto. Which Itachi replied "why not?"
Jiraiya said ima kill you, Sasuke intervened, how did you expect any of them to contest when the attention was diverted elsewhere? Itachi had already been dismissive with the "why not"

He only said he would draw with jiraiya afterwards, which kisame promptly questions the validity of said statement, implying there was somethjng fishy, other than kisame, going on..

Also, when jiraiya was telling kakashi about akatsuki he promptly ask kakashi to speed up Sasuke's growth "because itachi is in that group"..

Sasuke was always konoha's best bet against Itachi..


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 12, 2012)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> Oh I read it now. What I said works perfectly. The number of caretakers they've had is of little importance.
> 
> Minato wanting Naruto to be like Jiraiya also makes no difference to the fact that Minato being a finish line naruto has/had to cross after he crossed Jiraiyas.
> 
> ...



Not if you're trying to draw parallels.

Naruto already "surpassed" Minato during the wind training, Kakashi even saw a silhouette of Minato when Naruto completed it. Jiraiya's silhouette then appeared along-side Minato's silhouette after Naruto completed Sage Mode. 

Pein said that without his secret he couldn't had beaten Jiraiya, but then later said Naruto couldn't win even with the secret. 

As I pointed out, Pein disagrees.


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## Cyphon (Feb 12, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> FUTURE VISION EDIT
> 
> Ageed.



How did you do that?


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## Udontard4ever (Feb 12, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Not saying he has to fight, but to get it as easily as he did was stupid. A little more effort to get a secret scroll rather than a one-page success would've made sense to me.



skill level, or sneakiness level. I would have been a lot more disappointed if naruto made it out of sarutobi's house unnoticed or in a more "serious" way.


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## PoinT_BlanK (Feb 12, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> I don't mean to keep harping on this but by your logic Minato was left behind as well because Pa lumped both Jiraiya and Minato together. So that still doesn't tie Minato in with Itachi.
> 
> And to take it further it kind of worked out the same way. Sasuke with MS "failed" to surpass Itachi (even though that was never his goal anyway) and Naruto "failed" to defeat Pain/Nagato with SM which was the point of surpassing Jiraiya with SM.



The thing is, Minato resurfaced in later chapters as "that finish" line for naruto..

Your second paragraph, naruto surpassed jiraiya with SM, whether he defeated nagato or not its a different matter to what I was addressing..Sasuke though, he was put on terms with itachi..and only progressed further with another upgrade..the same can't be said for SM naruto/jiraiya. Deadpool seemed to want to draw a parallel there..


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 12, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Hmm.....Now that I think about it I always  thought it would have made sense for Itachi and Jiraiya to be working  together. Jiraiya was Konoha's best spy, completed more missions than  anyone else and was definitely trusted by Hiruzen and was in line to be  the fifth. Of course that doesn't necessarily have to tie in with these  arcs but maybe if we got some sign from Itachi to Jiraiya during the arc  in question......So Jiraiya probably should have known the truth about  Itachi and maybe they could have been in cahoots. Not sure how to fit it  all in neatly because with those 2 working together the manga would  just end because all bad guys would flee......



Those two were definitely working together, Itachi was acting as a spy  in Akatsuki and Jiraiya kept getting information from a reliable source of his. 

Jiraiya+Itachi would dominate the Narutoverse. 



PoinT_BlanK said:


> Jiraiya said you wonct get Naruto. Which Itachi replied "why not?"
> Jiraiya said ima kill you, Sasuke intervened, how did you expect any of  them to contest when the attention was diverted elsewhere? Itachi had  already been dismissive with the "why not"
> 
> He only said he would draw with jiraiya afterwards, which kisame  promptly questions the validity of said statement, implying there was  somethjng fishy, other than kisame, going on..
> ...



Itachi said "why not?" and Jiraiya said he was going to kill them. Jiraiya knew who he was up against. 

Itachi said he'd draw against Jiraiya before the encounter, the same  time Kisame said he wasn't in Jiraiya's league and also questioned if  Itachi would be able to beat him, which is when Itachi insisted that  he's Jiraiya's equal. And since Itachi is Jiraiya's equal, then there  was no need to retreat when their target was right there. 

There was something going on between Itachi and Sasuke, Jiraiya isn't stupid. Sasuke had to get stronger or get killed. 



PoinT_BlanK said:


> The thing is, Minato resurfaced in later chapters as "that finish" line for naruto..
> 
> Your second paragraph, naruto surpassed jiraiya with SM, whether he defeated nagato or not its a different matter..Sasuke though, he was put on terms with itachi..Nd only progressed further with another upgrade..the same can't be said for SM naruto/jiraiya. Deadpool seemed to want to draw a parallel there..



So how many times does Naruto have to surpass Minato? There was the Wind training, Sage training, and now Kyuubi training. Yet Naruto still somehow wasn't able to beat Itachi. Not only that, but KM Naruto still couldn't beat Nagato where as Jiraiya could.


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## Vice (Feb 12, 2012)

Yay. Another Itachi fan ruining a thread.

As for the topic, I've always felt, and will continue to, that Zabuza should have been stronger. His feats were visually trumped in the very next arc and he was merely used as a tool to hype Kakashi.  That's one thing I would have changed if I were in charge.


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## Star★Platinum (Feb 12, 2012)

One post in and it turns into an Itachi/Jiraiya debate.
This is getting ridiculous..


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## Taijukage (Feb 12, 2012)

the only thing i'd change is make sakura stronger in general. emphasise her talent for genjutsu and perhaps have a genjutsu duel vs tayuya. 
also make the former hokages use more jutsu.


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## Sniffers (Feb 12, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> How did you do that?


Oh, you know.. 



Udontard4ever said:


> skill level, or sneakiness level. I would have been a lot more disappointed if naruto made it out of sarutobi's house unnoticed or in a more "serious" way.


Not suggesting it'd have to be entirely serious. Sexy no Jutsu being used is fine. I just propose it'd look less up-for-grabs than it did.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Feb 12, 2012)

Vice said:


> Yay. Another Itachi fan ruining a thread.
> 
> As for the topic, I've always felt, and will continue to, that Zabuza should have been stronger. His feats were visually trumped in the very next arc and he was merely used as a tool to hype Kakashi.  That's one thing I would have changed if I were in charge.



I think Zabuza was intended to be stronger than he was shown to be, the problem is that Kishimoto was still working on the scaling. But his showing was still very good, he pretty much dominated Kakashi early on in close-range combat and would had killed him if not for Naruto and Sasuke. After that, Kakashi managed to trick Zabuza for the win, a second chance he wouldn't had gotten without help. Then their second fight was mostly off-panel, but Kakashi won at the end with a combination of intelligence and luck. Zabuza's main weakness is that he isn't the smartest around. 

In part 2, Mei was led to believe that Sasuke was the one that killed Zabuza, and even with everything she knew about Sasuke, still wasn't convinced that Sasuke beat Zabuza. 

He was strong, fast, was a great swordsman, his sword made a great close-moderate range weapon and was instant death for whoever he hit, it also made a reliable shield and never dulled and would repair itself. His Hidden Mist was a bane to almost any opponent and he was a master of the silent kill, in addition to that he could create an army of Water Clones, could trap and drown opponents in a Water Prison, and also had the AoE Suitons Giant Vortex and Water Dragon Missile.


----------



## maupp (Feb 12, 2012)

ammarz said:


> Sorry martyn, I didn't have the stamina to read through all your points. After reading the the initial lines in the Introduction Arc segment, I realized that we have radically different opinions and take on the manga. So I don't think much can be gained from discussing.
> 
> However, I am curios about one issue. If you dislike Naruto this much, why are you still following it and even wasting your time, in which you can do something you like, on a forum mostly dedicated to discuss Naruto?


this...basically this guy want to change almost the entire manga...if he hated the manga that much since the bigining, it make one wonder why he's still reading the manga now....
i read his points and trust me the reasons he hates them are completly fail and stupid...this guy doesnt even know what he's talking about, in fact the points he tried to bring up are way beyond stupid....OP if u think u can do all that, just become a story teller and write ur own damn manga....


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## tnorbo (Feb 12, 2012)

one thing I don't agree with is sasuke lasting longer against gaara. it was on eof the biggest reasons he left. it proved uchiha's couldn't get stronger without hatred. what kind of message would it have sent if he could fight gaara while protecting people.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 12, 2012)

Oh Jeez, look a thread about critically assessing the manga arcs has turned into a Jiraiya vs. Itachi thread! Do you guys ever change?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 12, 2012)

Chapter 571 vindicated it for a while 

also ep 248-249 




P.S. I only read the title of the thread 

P.S. See it's already getting hijacked


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## dream (Feb 12, 2012)

Pretty much agree with almost everything martryn said up to this point.


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## αce (Feb 12, 2012)

Analysis of part 2 should be great


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## martryn (Feb 12, 2012)

Shit, dudes, 3 pages.  I'm still fucking tired.  I only woke up to eat lunch, damn.  I'm not finishing this until later today.


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## Bluebeard (Feb 12, 2012)

Respect.

That is all.


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## tanman (Feb 12, 2012)

Actually a pretty good read.


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## Raiden (Feb 12, 2012)

Ah, rare to see criticism of any sort for part one. I really enjoyed reading. Can't wait to see what you say about part two, especially the first half. I strong agree with regards to the Sarutobi vs. Orochimaru fight. It's a vague indicator of how strong Sarutobi once was. I feel as if there should have been far more jutsu variation from him, not just dependence on Enma and the death seal.


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## Epyon (Feb 12, 2012)

Have the real Zabuza be the one holding Kakashi in the Waterball while his Water Clone is the one that fights Sasuke and Naruto instead of the other way around. Now the jutsu kinda sucks, instead of Zabuza (for High Jounin level anyway).


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## αce (Feb 12, 2012)

This deserves its own thread tbh.


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## Neelix (Feb 12, 2012)

Neelix's issues with the OP: Make your own manga.


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## martryn (Feb 12, 2012)

> Neelix's issues with the OP: Make your own manga.



Can't draw, and I tried a rewrite of Naruto but I need someone else to clean the manga up for me so I can use the panels I want.  My rewrite would be similar to what Darths and Droids did for Star Wars, minus the "it's a roleplaying game" aspect.

EDIT:  This was a project I started and never got around to finishing because it took so fucking long to clean up the pages and upload them after I rescripted them.


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## vikingweasel (Feb 12, 2012)

martryn said:


> _What Went Wrong:_  For Sasuke supposedly being such a badass, he got his ass kicked by Gaara pretty quick.  That sucked.  Also, with the massive power curve the manga eventually degraded into, and with Sarutobi being the "god of the shinobi" or whatever they called him, the fight between him and Orochimaru lacked the high powered techniques the Battledome loves jerking off to.  Would have loved to see more action across the entire village, too, with people like Neji and Kurenai, and fucking Genma, getting in on the action.



I apologize, but it's my opinion that this fight is one of the most underrated in the series. First of all, the art is beautiful. The small scale of the fight allows Kishi to focus on details like Sarutobi's wrinkles, the trees Shodai uses, and even little things like the mud clones.

Second, there's a good reason that the fight was small. Orochimaru had to ensure that the Third couldn't outmanuever him, or use his personal Anbu guard as strategic pieces in the fight against him. The shielded area had to be just as large as the Kages' spectator box. 

A technique too large would have killed everyone within the box including Orochimaru. (Not that a giant tree would have been a very good attack against a monkey god.)

Third, we're introduced to a technique that's more powerful than Edo Tensei in the final moments of the fight. I could be mistaken, but i don't think we've seen another technique in the series that allows you to directly attack your opponent's soul, stripping aside all illusions. It's powerful enough to bind a tailed beat.

As for the Battledome, people seem amazed that Naruto has reached the point where he can simultaneously fight multiple Edo Tensei Hokages. Sarutobi fought two Hokage level Edo Tensei Ninjas, and another living Hokage level ninja in the forth arc of the series. As a very, very old man, well past his prime.

To me, that means in his prime it's more than possible Sarutobi could have simulataneously defeated five mummy-kages at once (even if he had to sacrifice his life to do it.)

I agree with the rest of this thread, tho.


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## crystalblade13 (Feb 12, 2012)

Martryn, Its not the manga thats shit...its your obsession over it going "your way". You include a "what I would have done" option, and you know what? I dont care. The manga is written by kishimoto, not you. He has written the current most popular U.S manga, you have not. The reason your so pissed off at something you still read (for god knows what reason, considering yor opinion on it), seems to be because your mad that not everything is going the way you want it to.

Stop having preconcieved notions. Stop being so damn critical about minor details. And then you might enjoy it for what it is. A story written for the readers, not by the readers.

EDIT: I must say that your own little abrideged manga was pretty fucking funny though.


----------



## martryn (Feb 13, 2012)

I'll open the floor to questions now while I wait for space to finish.  Four posts weren't enough, apparently.  



> Minato and Itachi were established as the benchmarks early in the manga. Having a transitional caretaker like Jiraiya pushing him+Kisame woulda be silly/not make sense.



Except that's exactly what he did, even to Itachi's admission.  At that point in the manga I'm convinced that Kishimoto hadn't yet decided to make Itachi a good guy, so there is no other reason to retreat. 



> So Martryn having Jiraya push Itachi+Kisame wouldn't make sense unless the manga took a whole different path altogether.



Which is kinda the point. 



> When Naruto completed the Rasenshuriken and "surpassed" Minato, the 4th Hokage



Which is absolute bullshit at this point, by the way. 



> Hey, remember Martyn, Kabuto said that Tsunade was out of shape in that fight and Kabuto still was taking soldier pills.



Shouldn't have mattered.  Soldier pills hardly helped Kiba defeat Naruto (I think he was popping them at that time), and an out of shape professional fighter would still kick the shit out of an in shape amateur.  Remember, Orochimaru made Kakashi shit his pants, Tsunade was being purported to be just as strong as Orochimaru and Jiraiya, and Kabuto was around the level of Kakshi.  It seemed as if Kabuto was playing with her at that point. 



> If there's that many things you'd like to change, remind me again, why are you still reading this manga?



Eight fucking years of weekly reading this thing.  I'm gonna quit now, so close to the finish?  



> eliminate konohamaru cause he's irrelevant and give more panel time to mizuki?



Yes and yes.  Duh. 



> We learn he is the grandson of the 3rd Hokage, The Professor, God of Shinobi, strongest Kage etc.....
> 
> We later learn that Asuma is the thirds son and is also famous in his own right as one of the 12 ninja guardians or whatever they were called.
> 
> So basically you have this famous lineage or name "Sarutobi" and we know nothing of where Konohamaru comes from. Are his parents not famous? Was his mom or dad the son or daughter of one of the most famous people in the ninja world? Where is this info? It hasn't even been hinted at in the DB's or anywhere.



Not a problem if he didn't exist.  We have Asuma's kid now, anyways.  If they were going to keep Konohamaru in the manga, he should have had a larger role.  Hell, he and Iruka need a larger role, the both of them.  They should more or less be around every time Naruto is in Konoha.  



> As I recall Naruto got it a little too easily.



He turned into a naked chick.  Worse hokage ever.



> To overcome the power of the other rookies I'd suggest that the Curse Seal was less cripling to Sasuke and that Naruto relied on Fox chakra more.



If that's what it would take, then I agree.  I really don't like the idea of the Kyuubi being a crutch, but it was in almost every major battle Naruto had.



> Other than that I disagree with Sasuke helping to defeat Gaara. The idea was that Sasuke got an inferiority complex (to Naruto) there which is vital for his leaving the village.



Inferiority complex could still be there, but have Naruto do most of the heavy leg work because Sasuke can't cut it for one reason or another.  Gaara should have been a bigger threat.  He was in one tail mode, which would have been rape had Naruto been in Gaara's position.  Sasuke was tossed aside like a rag doll and was obsolete in this battle, which doesn't make any sense given the buildup to how awesome Sasuke is. 



> Jiraiya making two Akatsuki retreat would immediately hurt the hype of these new villains and also would've waste Orochimaru's hype for Itachi.



But it would have done wonders for the hype of the sannin, and this was an arc all about the sannin.  Itachi should have been a major villain for Sasuke, and there should have been clear reasons why Oro couldn't defeat Itachi (his over reliance on eye contact in a lot of his jutsus, and the fact that he was a ninjutsu style fighter, which is easily copyable by the sharingan) and clear reasons why Jiraiya should have (unorthodox fighting style and a load of unique techniques, many requiring a contract with toads and or awesome hair).  



> Minato being a finish line naruto has/had to cross



Why this insistence on benchmarks?  And why does it have to happen so quickly in the manga.  Naruto right now is more or less god, and he's what?  15?  16?  Which would be fine, except when he was 12 he wasn't anywhere near as badass as Kakashi and Itachi were at 12.  The manga is suffering right now from this massive power inflation that came out of nowhere.  

Beginning of Part II Naruto has to use cheap tricks to defeat Kakashi and grab a bell.  Three arcs later and Kakashi is claiming Naruto has surpassed him.  Two arcs after that, one Naruto puts up a better fight than the entire village of Konoha. 



> I apologize, but it's my opinion that this fight is one of the most underrated in the series. First of all, the art is beautiful. The small scale of the fight allows Kishi to focus on details like Sarutobi's wrinkles, the trees Shodai uses, and even little things like the mud clones.
> 
> Second, there's a good reason that the fight was small. Orochimaru had to ensure that the Third couldn't outmanuever him, or use his personal Anbu guard as strategic pieces in the fight against him. The shielded area had to be just as large as the Kages' spectator box.
> 
> ...



I'm not saying that the fight was bad.  I loved it and wished that it lasted longer and showcased more.  I'm saying that because it didn't, two great characters have been forgotten and tossed aside.  Sarutobi was a god among shinobi, and he proved it by fighting and besting what many people now consider the strongest character in the manga: the first hokage... while at the same time fighting the second hokage.  I mean, fuck!  A lot of people use the excuse that the edo tensei clones aren't as powerful as the original bodies, which we now know is complete bullshit. 

I'm still disgusted with the treatment of Orochimaru in the second half of the manga.


----------



## martryn (Feb 13, 2012)

Did someone seriously merge my thread into this shit?  Seriously?  After four posts of editing to try to get them to fit due to character limit, those posts are now four pages behind us where no one is ever going to fucking see them?  Does a set of quality posts, time, and effort on my part deserve this?


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## vikingweasel (Feb 13, 2012)

martryn said:


> I'm not saying that the fight was bad.  I loved it and wished that it lasted longer and showcased more.  I'm saying that because it didn't, two great characters have been forgotten and tossed aside.  Sarutobi was a god among shinobi, and he proved it by fighting and besting what many people now consider the strongest character in the manga: the first hokage... while at the same time fighting the second hokage.  I mean, fuck!  A lot of people use the excuse that the edo tensei clones aren't as powerful as the original bodies, which we now know is complete bullshit.



I will never forget Hiruzen Sarutobi.


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## Ark 2.0 (Feb 13, 2012)

argh...my primary complaint is that this manga revolves around ninjas neglecting the real heroes of the series...the frogs...argh


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## Doge (Feb 13, 2012)

Ark 18.0 said:


> argh...my primary complaint is that this manga revolves around ninjas neglecting the real heroes of the series...the frogs...argh



Or how in the world all the ninja tools are made.



It must be foxconn on steroids if you want to supply Konan with 6 billion tags.


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## Ark 2.0 (Feb 13, 2012)

lvl80elitetaurenchieftain said:


> Or how in the world all the ninja tools are made.
> 
> 
> 
> It must be foxconn on steroids if you want to supply Konan with 6 billion tags.



argh...personally i would go with the frogs, its ebcause of them we even have naruto...yet they are disregarded...argh


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## bloodyhawk (Feb 14, 2012)

i was disappointed in how one paneled the chapters where against such a legendary opponents


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Feb 14, 2012)

martryn said:


> Did someone seriously merge my thread into this shit?  Seriously?  After four posts of editing to try to get them to fit due to character limit, those posts are now four pages behind us where no one is ever going to fucking see them?  Does a set of quality posts, time, and effort on my part deserve this?



I agree. This thread must be separated. I was planning on writing a supportive response, but what the fuck is the point now that it's merged in HERE?


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## Tyrion (Feb 14, 2012)

lol @ Sasuke being the first option from the poll


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## αce (Feb 14, 2012)

Mart's thread should not have been merged.
Bad idea.


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## crystalblade13 (Feb 20, 2012)

I hate that the manga will cease to exist one day, and that i'll have to find something else to read weekly.


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## momma bravo (Feb 24, 2012)

my latest complaints:

*1. tobi* 
he isn't a chill bamf anymore. ever since his nobody speech he's been losing his cool and showing way too many signs of defeat.

*2. madara*
...... just.... fucking boring. when he explosively kicked down his coffin lid i was prepared for ruthless, godly demonstrations; but all he's shown is bigger katons, darker susanoo techniques, hashirama butthurt facials as well as hype, and incredibly cheesy nicktoons one liners (ex., to oonoki "you dance well, but you still need to step higher." ........ the hell? what happened to the madara from chapter 399? he seemed infinitely more classy, poised, and intimidating.)

*3. the sand siblings*
..... "siblings." why don't they look remotely alike? i can see their parents in each of them, but it just bugs me that they don't look related at all. even A and B look more like siblings than them. inb4 someone thinks i'm suggesting that all black people look a like >_<

*4. chomei* 
AKA seven tails beetle/dragonfly thingy. this tailed beast always looked incredibly silly to me. the medieval helmet for a face and the maple leaf tail design just looks funny. i dunno.... a beetle borg design wouldv'e been more appropriate in my opinion.

*5. kishimoto's method of introducing yet quickly trashing potentially incredible characters and/or ideas. *
this is the best [recent] example i know of: this (read the first 4 pages to see what i mean).
really kishimoto, really?
was the point of this instance just to give naruto a cool one hit k.o?


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## Tsunade82 (Feb 28, 2012)

I have really liked the Manga, but there are some things that bug me a lot. 

Like.... 

- Barely any development from the Rookie 9 since the start of part 2.  I know that Kishi has a lot of characters to tend to, and I loved how he developed the Akatsuki, but it seems like he has forgotten a lot of people.  I started reading the Manga because of the Rookie 12 and I really loved the chunin challenge.  Sure the rookie 9 have their moments ever now and then.  But Naruto and Sasuke have grown shoulders and shoulders above their counterparts. 
- Also Sakura, she was a mega badass in the first arc of part 2 when she and Chiyo found Sasori, but ever since then, nothing.  I have seen no new jutsus and she is always crying.  It is a little disappointing. 
- Finally I know Kishi said he is going to make one pairing canon, but I really hope he further develops unknown pairing a lot more.  Because if they were to get together as of now, I would probably quit reading.



dajiang said:


> my latest complaints:
> 
> *5. kishimoto's method of introducing yet quickly trashing potentially incredible characters and/or ideas. *
> this is the best [recent] example i know of: Sakura was tending an exausted Tsunade (read the first 4 pages to see what i mean).
> ...



I really agree with this point, I mean why waste 4 pages of panels to describe an awesome technique just to have one of the main characters trash them.  Just show Naruto saving those two in like one panel...


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## Stunna (Mar 8, 2012)

I agree with 90% of what Mart said.

Part 2's a guilty pleasure of mine.


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## Eikichi Onizuka (Mar 8, 2012)

I didnt know that this was here but im glad i found it.



> Martryn, Its not the manga thats shit...its your obsession over it going "your way". You include a "what I would have done" option, and you know what? I dont care. The manga is written by kishimoto, not you. He has written the current most popular U.S manga, you have not. The reason your so pissed off at something you still read (for god knows what reason, considering yor opinion on it), seems to be because your mad that not everything is going the way you want it to.



The man is entitled to his opinions and you arguing that just because its kisi story we cant criticize isnt fair. All literally works of any sort can be improved and as the reader we have the right to criticize the faults of what where reading. You saying its the most popular manga in the U.S doesnt necessarily mean that its a good one either. Jersey shore was one of the most popular shows on TV, and it was complete crap.     

Naruto Part one is similar to part 2 thats my biggest grip and always has been. Kisi has failed at making any of these characters really mature or grow. You have him making Sakura look like an idiot for some people and you have Naruto actually believing that his childlike ideals will actual succeed. Worst off they do succeed and people buy his preachy crap.

Main example of this is Pain who I always said was so illogical to fall for talk no justu. The manga may have jumped the shark even before that but for me thats when I just said forget it. Nagato a grown ass adult who built up a certain ideology suddenly changed it for a teenager who in my opinion was kind of talking out of his ass. I could be cynical but if my little sister ever came up to me and told me she knew how hard life is but if I put faith in her she would show me how to make things better I would laugh. Then I would proceed to tell her she has NO IDEA how rough things can be. 

There are other things like how he just really doesnt even try to develop female characters. Does no one but me notice that Hinata's whole life resolves around Naruto a guy she really doesnt know. Really go back and read the war arc scenes with her panels, she was thinking more about Naruto rather then you know winning the war. I guess she completely forget that you know there where other reasons to win the war, like not being mental slaves to a mad men. 

I honestly could go on for pages but I read the big 3 manga. Naruto used to be one of the most entertaining of the 3. The thing is at this point im just reading a story about a magical ninja who is the second coming of christ and wants to start the communist revolution. One Piece has beaten this by far and Bleach is more entertaining even with the slow pacing. That doesnt mean I will stop reading Ive invested enough time to want to see how this ends.


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## Rated R Superstar (Mar 8, 2012)

The current arc has been extremely consistent. It has had so many ups and downs, highs and lows, its unbelievable. There have been so many dissapointments, such as suposed high tier ninjas bein turned into fodder, too many characters being introduced at the same time, and the DUMBING DOWN of the Sharigan and the rinnegan. I thought it was stupid for Kishi to give so many non uchiha characters the sharigan and rinnegan. It made the sharigan/rinnegan seem less special. 

There use to be a time when if you had the sharigan or the rinnegan, it felt special. Nowadays, its impossible to keep up with all the characters that have it. No Edo characters should have it, imo. As far as overall quality of the manga is concerned, I feel like its gon downhill. The plot is just all over the place. I still enjoy some aspects of the manga though, obviously. 

The power scaling of the series has gotten out of hand. It has turned from "Naruto", into "Naruball Z". Wild and out of this world tecniques for example. I honestly believe that despite the ending, The Pain Invasion arc was the last great arc. I think the manga peaked at that arc.


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## Yellow Flash1 (Mar 8, 2012)

> 3 bottom-right panels



Does this mean that Kabuto knows how powerfull Naruto now?
Cuz when Naruto blows up Zetsus clone with Rasengan, Kabuto replies with: _What is that?_


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## RockyIII (Apr 5, 2012)

*God this is so stupid....*

This manga has dropped off so far... No one gives a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto. Itachi having a new ultimate technique? I mean how stupid is this?  He died Like hundreds of chapters ago and he's still poisoning this manga. He's like Teflon no matter what the obstacle kishi just keeps giving him new hax techniques to make him look stronger. This guy was just a cool powerful criminal at the beginning of the manga. He was not NINJA JESUS. He was so much better when he was just a powerful mysterious bad guy, not some invincible martyr that can do no wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if kishi revealed itachi's father didnt have a hand in his birth and he was birthed by emaculate conception.


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## SoleAccord (Apr 5, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> This manga has dropped off so far... *No one gives a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto.* Itachi having a new ultimate technique? I mean how stupid is this?  He died Like hundreds of chapters ago and he's still poisoning this manga. He's like Teflon no matter what the obstacle kishi just keeps giving him new hax techniques to make him look stronger. This guy was just a cool powerful criminal at the beginning of the manga. He was not NINJA JESUS. *He was so much better when he was just a powerful mysterious bad guy*, not some invincible martyr that can do no wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if kishi revealed itachi's father didnt have a hand in his birth and he was birthed by emaculate conception.



Bolded is your opinion.

Itachi died sick and throwing a battle, so its likely to assume Itachi knew more than we were led to believe. Sharingan isn't one of the most feared Kekkei Genkai for nothing.

Everything else is meh.


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## RockyIII (Apr 5, 2012)

Shut up this is one of the biggest flaws in the manga. We have a plot hole the size of the grand canyon named Itachi. He's a giant contradiction and his character is horrible now to top it off. Part 2 reminds me of the star wars prequels. I've been following this manga for years and kishi turned his back on me!


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## SoleAccord (Apr 5, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> Shut up this is one of the biggest flaws in the manga. We have a plot hole the size of the grand canyon named Itachi. He's a giant contradiction and *his character is horrible now to top it off*. Part 2 reminds me of the star wars prequels. *I've been following this manga for years and kishi turned his back on me!*



Yeah how dare he ruin this manga because he didn't meet your standards.

Bolded is either an lol, or still your opinion ..which is probably still an lol depending on how you look at it.


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## Chibason (Apr 5, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> Shut up this is one of the biggest flaws in the manga. We have a plot hole the size of the grand canyon named Itachi. He's a giant contradiction and his character is horrible now to top it off. Part 2 reminds me of the star wars prequels. I've been following this manga for years and kishi turned his back on me!



There is no plot hole though...you just don't get it I think...


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## RockyIII (Apr 5, 2012)

ThePromise said:


> Bolded is your opinion.
> 
> Itachi died sick and throwing a battle, so its likely to assume Itachi knew more than we were led to believe. Sharingan isn't one of the most feared Kekkei Genkai for nothing.
> 
> Everything else is meh.



You're right those are just my opinions.... But my opinions right


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## T-Bag (Apr 5, 2012)

itachi always held back his real power. CANON. FACTUAL. he wasn't just any random villain who threw everything he got at once. he saved his eyes for the fight with sasuke. it was never hinted he had izanagi because he never had to use it, it's a *forbidden* jutsu used when the situation seems hopeless. itachi was never hopeless, until now.


----------



## RockyIII (Apr 5, 2012)

Chibason said:


> There is no plot hole though...you just don't get it I think...







You don't see any plot holes in that giant recon? Are you kidding?


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## SoleAccord (Apr 5, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> You're right those are just my opinions.... *But my opinions right*



..So everyone has to agree with you just because you think this way then? This is the mindset you made this thread with?

I mean if you think Itachi sucks go ahead, just don't make it sound like everyone here shares your opinions on Itachi's character and how the fight progresses. Then I have to disagree with you further.

And as I said, Itachi held back against Sasuke before his passing. The first significant threat to the main characters with the name 'Uchiha' was Itachi, so it can't be surprising he has more power he didn't display in a fight he willingly lost.


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## RockyIII (Apr 5, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> itachi always held back his real power. CANON. FACTUAL. he wasn't just any random villain who threw everything he got at once. he saved his eyes for the fight with sasuke. it was never hinted he had izanagi because he never had to use it, it's a *forbidden* jutsu used when the situation seems hopeless. itachi was never hopeless, until now.






It's just horrible writing his guy is like the ultimate Mary sue. Oh, I don't know how to get itachi out Of this situation! Time for a new, never before mentioned technique that will likely defeat kabuto in the next chapter!!


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## RockyIII (Apr 5, 2012)

ThePromise said:


> ..So everyone has to agree with you just because you think this way then? This is the mindset you made this thread with?
> 
> I mean if you think Itachi sucks go ahead, just don't make it sound like everyone here shares your opinions on Itachi's character and how the fight progresses. Then I have to disagree with you further.
> 
> And as I said, Itachi held back against Sasuke before his passing. The first significant threat to the main characters with the name 'Uchiha' was Itachi, so it can't be surprising he has more power he didn't display in a fight he willingly lost.



Dude I'm obviously joking, you're entitled to your own opinion. And I was joking when I said Kishi turned his back on me, I really don't give a crap all that much.



This is just bad, bad, bad writing. Just bringing up things that have never been mentioned to get characters out of sticky situations. I face palmed about 3 times during that chapter... IMO, the quality of the manga was getting worse, but it has really reached an all time low.


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## SoleAccord (Apr 5, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> This is just bad, bad, bad writing. Just bringing up things that have never been mentioned to get characters out of sticky situations. I face palmed about 3 times during that chapter... IMO, the quality of the manga was getting worse, but it has really reached an all time low.



We never heard of Sage Mode until Jiraiya utilized it. So therefore is Sage Mode now bad writing too? I'm trying to see what makes Itachi so bad when some characters have pulled moves out of an unseen field too.


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## αce (Apr 5, 2012)

This manga went to hell after Pain arc.
Yet people only complain when Itachi shows something

:sanji


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## Chibason (Apr 5, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> You don't see any plot holes in that giant recon? Are you kidding?



Recon? 

Anyways, no I dont. Would you mind explaining how a ninja using a new jutsu is a plot hole?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 6, 2012)

Yes the manga is not so great but let's not blame everything on itachi he is only part of the problem.


----------



## Remsengan (Apr 6, 2012)

OP is right.  Itach pulling a new MS hax jutsu out of nowhere is really not what the manga really needs right now.

Back in Part 1 and early Part 2, characters and jutsu had a certain amount of buildup before they were used.  Itachi showed us a hint of Ama when escaping the motel, and then showcased it off against his brother Sasuke many years later.  Currently there is no build-up or consistency in how these chapters are written and it's becoming pretty annoying.

This bullocks started with all the prophesy mess, but Itachi suddenly pulling Izanami out of nowhere just gives me another reason to stop taking the series so seriously.  Are "cool" characters just going to live now because they're protected by some plot no jutsu that they've kept hidden for years?

Even Jmans Sage Mode had build up.  Jiraiya was linked to frogs since he was introduced to the series.  He was also referred to as a 'sage' several times in Part 1.  His jutsu had build-up, strength, flaws and a certain uniqueness(at the time).  Sharingan had that too, to some extent.  But now it's all about who has the better insta-hax, which makes the story and fighting pretty much bland.

The entire story is plot no jutsu pulled out of Kishi's ass.  I much preferred it when it came from his creativity.


----------



## eyeknockout (Apr 6, 2012)

going by your logic, Dragon ball z should have ended after Raditz since once goku dies once and is revived, being brought back and showing something new is just stupid


----------



## Taijukage (Apr 6, 2012)

> itachi always held back his real power. CANON. FACTUAL. he wasn't just any random villain who threw everything he got at once. he saved his eyes for the fight with sasuke.


which is selfish since it put the entire world in danger. why didnt he fight tobi with everything he had? even if he died in the process its still better than doing nothing at all.


----------



## Klue (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> This manga has dropped off so far... No one gives a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto. Itachi having a new ultimate technique? I mean how stupid is this?  He died Like hundreds of chapters ago and he's still poisoning this manga. He's like Teflon no matter what the obstacle kishi just keeps giving him new hax techniques to make him look stronger. This guy was just a cool powerful criminal at the beginning of the manga. He was not NINJA JESUS. He was so much better when he was just a powerful mysterious bad guy, not some invincible martyr that can do no wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if kishi revealed itachi's father didnt have a hand in his birth and he was birthed by emaculate conception.



What aspect of the story makes it unreasonable for Itachi to reveal a new eye technique?

Where we not introduce to Izanagi? A forbidden power that seals the eye away after a single use. Isn't this technique likely along the same lines?

Was there a particular reason why he would have sacrificed his eye power in the past?


----------



## RockyIII (Apr 6, 2012)

Klue said:


> What aspect of the story makes it unreasonable for Itachi to reveal a new eye technique?
> 
> Where we not introduce to Izanagi? A forbidden power that seals the eye away after a single use. Isn't this technique likely along the same lines?
> 
> Was there a particular reason why he would have sacrificed his eye power in the past?



Izanagi was REALLY STUPID TOO. I mean a power that rewrites reality? Are you kidding? That is the definition of bad writing and "I can't think of anything better." I thought we were getting away from that BS since it hadn't been mentioned in  a while. Then Itachi starts getting beat up, BUT DON'T WORRY. He has a new technique that he has never shown us or mentioned before and he's gonna use it right now to win the fight. 

Does anyone else see how bad this writing is? Am I the only one? At least have him find strength inside or go through a character change or SOMETHING. The mangekyo sharingan has like 10 techniques already ITS ENOUGH. 


Furthermore, I thought this fight was going to showcase how Sasuke has surpassed his brother with his new powers but it just seems like Kishi can't do anything that would even take a sliver away from Itachi's power.


I really didn't hate Itachi until he became ninja jesus. Actually, scratch that, I don't hate Itachi. I hate how bad this writing is.


----------



## Bule08 (Apr 6, 2012)

idk why your complaining Itachi is fine and one of the best character no matter what


----------



## DeathWish08 (Apr 6, 2012)

Itachi died in a fight where he didn't get to show off his full potential due to him holding back against Sasuke. It is really obvious that he will pull out techniques that we have never seen him use before now that he isn't dying, or going blind. Izanami was going to show up in the manga sooner or later anyways. I don't really get why that is coming as such a surprise to people. Especially considering that Izanami may have the same drawbacks that Izanagi had.


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## RockyIII (Apr 6, 2012)

eyeknockout said:


> going by your logic, Dragon ball z should have ended after Raditz since once goku dies once and is revived, being brought back and showing something new is just stupid



What? The dragonballs had been shown to grant wishes throughout the series. Also, people had brought back people to life before, I don't understand... DBZ was no work of art masterpiece but that part was not too bad.


----------



## boohead (Apr 6, 2012)

Have faith in Kabuto his ass snake will rape (literally) both of the Uchihaha boyz and they won't be walkin' straight for weeks. 

This new technique will fail against the might of Rapebuto.


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## Silent Breaker (Apr 6, 2012)

*yeah I agree with you *
*itachi as a villain is much better and itachi being good guy*
*is one of kishi's biggest mistakes it's not something makes *
*the manga better and now itachi fights with sasuke like*
*he didn't kill his clan and use new hax jutsu izanami *
*kishi riuned his manga with uchihas hax*


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## RockyIII (Apr 6, 2012)

Silent Breaker said:


> *yeah I agree with you *
> 
> *itachi as a vilian is much better and itachi being good guy*
> * is one of kishi's biggest mistakes it's not something makes *
> ...


Hahah Among the other plot holes are the fact that this dude killed their parents, cousins, aunts, whole clan. BUT ALL IS FORGIVEN


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## DeathWish08 (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> Hahah Among the other plot holes are the fact that this dude killed their parents, cousins, aunts, whole clan. BUT ALL IS FORGIVEN


This isn't new information. Sasuke had forgiven Itachi the moment Tobi told him the truth about Itachi's past. It is the whole reason Sasuke intends to "Destroy the Leaf".


----------



## The Prodigy (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> This manga has dropped off so far... *No one gives a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto.* Itachi having a new ultimate technique? I mean how stupid is this?  He died Like hundreds of chapters ago and he's still poisoning this manga. *He's like Teflon no matter what the obstacle kishi just keeps giving him new hax techniques to make him look stronger.* This guy was just a cool powerful criminal at the beginning of the manga. *He was not NINJA JESUS. He was so much better when he was just a powerful mysterious bad guy, not some invincible martyr that can do no wrong.* I wouldn't be surprised if kishi revealed itachi's father didnt have a hand in his birth and he was birthed by emaculate conception.



Ah yeah, the haters don't give a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto. But the fandom can't get enough 

He never went all out. The fandom already knew this, the haters refused to accept this 

He TnJ'd the God of talk no justu, Naruto himself, Itachi is transcendent. 


*Spoiler*: __ 







*Spoiler*: __ 



Deal with it


----------



## Rumeye (Apr 6, 2012)

I agree, i liked Itachi as the man who killed all of his clan members leaving only his brother to take revenge on him. This story was way much better but Kishi is a poor writer he had to pull that "Itachi is a good guy" out of his ass.

Personally i don?t care about Itachi or Sasuke they aren?t anywhere near my favorite characters but since they fill a big space in the story i would?ve liked a better development.


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## RockyIII (Apr 6, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Ah yeah, the haters don't give a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto. But the fandom can't get enough
> 
> He never went all out. The fandom already knew this, the haters refused to accept this
> 
> ...



It's not that he didn't go all out. It's just that he just introduced this ultimate technique never seen or introduced by an uchiha before. Izanagi was stupid enough This is just terrible writing


----------



## Demonic Sharingan (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> This manga has dropped off so far... No one gives a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto. Itachi having a new ultimate technique? I mean how stupid is this?  He died Like hundreds of chapters ago and he's still poisoning this manga. He's like Teflon no matter what the obstacle kishi just keeps giving him new hax techniques to make him look stronger. This guy was just a cool powerful criminal at the beginning of the manga. He was not NINJA JESUS. He was so much better when he was just a powerful mysterious bad guy, not some invincible martyr that can do no wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if kishi revealed itachi's father didnt have a hand in his birth and he was birthed by emaculate conception.



He isnt mysterious anymore and it was bound to be that way eventually anyway


----------



## TH4N4T0S (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> Hahah Among the other plot holes are the fact that this dude killed their parents, cousins, aunts, whole clan. BUT ALL IS FORGIVEN



Can't do anything about it. 

Anyway, regardless of how the readers view Itachi's actions, Kishimoto wants to establish him as some flawed hero. I could call him the savior of X, Y, Z, or whoever, but not a true hero. I know of no hero who killed his/her own family for any purpose. The truest hero of this manga shall come in the form of Naruto.


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## RockyIII (Apr 6, 2012)

Listen I really don't hate Itachi all that much (well I kinda hate him now since this mass murderer is being sold as mister perfect and the ultimate hero). This is just bad, bad writing from a technical stand point. I expected the plot holes and quality to drop off in a long running manga, but this is unacceptable.


----------



## TheTsukishima (Apr 6, 2012)

You're exaggerating.  If you find it _unacceptable_, you're more than welcome to stop following it.


----------



## The Prodigy (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> It's not that he didn't go all out. It's just that he just introduced this ultimate technique never seen or introduced by an uchiha before. Izanagi was stupid enough This is just terrible writing



The very BEST anyone could've done about Itachi's real true ability, the one Zetsu stated Itachi should've easily been able to avoid situations and do certain things, is speculate. Now were given feats of him doing so, and funny enough, before we were told "Itachi doesn't have the feats" "No limits fallacy", well... yeah. I'm loving this writing.


----------



## Klue (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> Izanagi was REALLY STUPID TOO. I mean a power that rewrites reality? Are you kidding? That is the definition of bad writing and "I can't think of anything better." I thought we were getting away from that BS since it hadn't been mentioned in  a while. Then Itachi starts getting beat up, BUT DON'T WORRY. He has a new technique that he has never shown us or mentioned before and he's gonna use it right now to win the fight.



Izanagi doesn't rewrite reality, warp it or alter it in anyway. It's a technique that recreates the user if their hurt or killed. It's a creation ability that only last for a short time, at the cost of the user's light.

Calling it stupid, asking rhetorical questions is not how one argues that something is the definition of bad writing. It just sounds like something you don't necessarily like, not a flaw in the story itself.

So it's bad writing because we weren't warned that he could use this ability ahead of time? He has the Sharingan, we know the Sharingan has forbidden techniques; this technique is being introduced as a related power to the last one - not a big deal or surprise.

It's not like a new Mangekyou technique, of which Itachi and Sasuke both said Susanoo is the third and final power.



RockyIII said:


> Does anyone else see how bad this writing is? Am I the only one? At least have him find strength inside or go through a character change or SOMETHING. The mangekyo sharingan has like 10 techniques already ITS ENOUGH.



No, I don't find Izanami to be a bad thing, but a cheesy scenario thrown together by the author, to help introduce another facet of the Uchiha/Senju/Rikudou relationship, that will allow Itachi to end Edo Tensei in a unique way.



RockyIII said:


> Furthermore, I thought this fight was going to showcase how Sasuke has surpassed his brother with his new powers but it just seems like Kishi can't do anything that would even take a sliver away from Itachi's power.



There is plenty of time for that, the story isn't over yet. We know Sasuke has the potential to surpass Itachi, assuming he hasn't flat out done so already.

He did claim Itachi's eyes.



RockyIII said:


> I really didn't hate Itachi until he became ninja jesus. Actually, scratch that, I don't hate Itachi. I hate how bad this writing is.



Yet and still, you haven't explained why it's bad writing.


----------



## Disaresta (Apr 6, 2012)

The op's only mistake is the assumption that this manga was ever NOT shit.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Apr 6, 2012)

It's well within our rights to follow a manga and complain about it. Who said otherwise?


----------



## Klue (Apr 6, 2012)

X Drake said:


> It's well within our rights to follow a manga and complain about it. Who said otherwise?



Who said he couldn't complain? I'm just asking/helping him do so constructively. I'm not upset or offended by his opinion, but this borders on senseless bashing. So why not ask him to elaborate to better declare his beliefs? 

This is a Naruto Fan Forum site, bro.

If this were a One Piece forum, I would have loled.


----------



## Lovely Hope (Apr 6, 2012)

You can not say as it's our opinion..it's your opinion ..and no one can prevent you to say it..
this manga is not getting worse in my opinion..
if you want the spot to stay on konoha and good guys..so why is there other characters?! ..to me..the manga was not good when the uchiha was not appear yet ..but I just were patient..Finally I got some uchiha screen..when the manga will be at one side ..it really will drop ..so be patient and the other side will appear soon..
sorry for bad english..


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 6, 2012)

DeathWish08 said:


> Itachi died in a fight where he didn't get to show off his full potential due to him holding back against Sasuke. It is really obvious that he will pull out techniques that we have never seen him use before now that he isn't dying, or going blind. Izanami was going to show up in the manga sooner or later anyways. I don't really get why that is coming as such a surprise to people. Especially considering that Izanami may have the same drawbacks that Izanagi had.



I agree with this. Itachi probably would've shown Izanami in his fight with Sasuke if it wasn't sickness and if he wasn't holding back.


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## Lord Valgaav (Apr 6, 2012)

If you're so upset you're more than welcome to stop reading the manga OP. No ones forcing you.


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## 青月光 (Apr 6, 2012)

OP is mad 

If it was his favorite character showing izanami or a new technique we haven?t seen before, he would be delightful.

Haters gonna hate


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## RockyIII (Apr 6, 2012)

Legendary Uchiha said:


> OP is mad
> 
> If it was his favorite character showing izanami or a new technique we haven?t seen before, he would be delightful.
> 
> Haters gonna hate



I don't have a favorite character dufus. My fav character USED to be Rock Lee. but then Kishi just dropped his whole character arc and just made him another background fodder character in part 2.

I really DON'T like this manga anymore. I've been reading from the begginning, I just have to see how it ends....

The writing comes out of no where and nothing is constant. It's not just Itachi, its this entire arc. I can just see Kishi writing...


"Hmmmm, I have NO IDEA what to write about in this next arc.... I know! Let's just bring back all the bad guys who's character arcs have been wrapped up! The people will love that!"

Does this sound like a fan fic to anyone? I mean I know the first fanfics I read were where the bad guys everyone liked were brought back to life...


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## Lord Valgaav (Apr 6, 2012)

We already knew the Uchiha powers were based off of Shinto gods. So it was bound to happen anyway especially once Danzo showed us Izanagi. Since then there were lots of theories of someone using Izanami we just never expected it to be Itachi but even him having it isn't an asspull.

As already stated Itachi before his death had never gone all out even against Sasuke. Why? 2 reasons. One, there was no point when his regular  attacks and Tsukiyomi were enough to take down opponents like Deidara and Kakashi. And two, because he was dying of ninja aids so his stamina was very low. His body couldnt handle MS spamming like Sasuke can. Actually theres another reason. Its a *forbidden* tech. Why waste an eye using the tech when he doesn't have to?

As for Kishi making Itachi "Jesus" and ignoring Sasuke thats just all in your head. Sasuke could have clearly killed Kabuto by now but Itachi specifically told him not to. Sasuke only has kill moves so hes forced to stay back. Only reason Itachi is fighting instead is because he has Izanami which will apparently stop Edo Tensei not necessarily kill Kabuto so you're really jumping the gun on that "point". 

And again if you're this upset then just stop reading. Wanna know how it ends, stay in the library for updates.


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## Veo (Apr 6, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> This manga has dropped off so far... No one gives a crap about this itachi sasuke fight with kabuto. Itachi having a new ultimate technique? I mean how stupid is this?  He died Like hundreds of chapters ago and he's still poisoning this manga. He's like Teflon no matter what the obstacle kishi just keeps giving him new hax techniques to make him look stronger. This guy was just a cool powerful criminal at the beginning of the manga. He was not NINJA JESUS. He was so much better when he was just a powerful mysterious bad guy, not some invincible martyr that can do no wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if kishi revealed itachi's father didnt have a hand in his birth and he was birthed by emaculate conception.



I actually agree with you. Another character spoiled. 

Aside from that, I don't think the manga is going worse, but I'd like the Konoha rookies to get more panel tho.


----------



## Saru (Apr 6, 2012)

You simply were unprepared for Itachi's true depth of knowledge and power.


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## Raiden (Apr 7, 2012)

Personally, I always felt as if the chapters were just too short to create kind of emotional investment needed to hook older reader.


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## DoflaMihawk (Apr 7, 2012)

Itachi is poisoning the manga?


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## Kusa (Apr 7, 2012)

Speak for yourself dude.I like this fight and I'm interested to see what this Izanami (was it Izanami ,I can't spell the damn name of that jutsu)is .


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## RockyIII (Apr 7, 2012)

Klue said:


> Who said he couldn't complain? I'm just asking/helping him do so constructively. I'm not upset or offended by his opinion, but this borders on senseless bashing. So why not ask him to elaborate to better declare his beliefs?
> 
> This is a Naruto Fan Forum site, bro.
> 
> If this were a One Piece forum, I would have loled.



Dude I told you why it was bad writing. And izanagi was used by the rikudo to rewrite reality at some point in the manga I forget when. 



The writing is bad because nothing is introduced before hand. You can't just keep adding ultimate techniques to the sharingan and think that it's good writing. You need to build up to these things. You can't just have your character get in trouble and then give them some new technique that no one has ever mentioned or heard of before.

Itachi went from being much weaker than jiraya to being much stronger than pain in the manga. It's stupid itachi is the biggest troll...


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## Hated Uchiha (Apr 7, 2012)

when izanagi was first introduced everyone assumed izanami would be its counterpart

so the issue is now that itachi is using it. the bigger question is that aa uchiha needs the power of senju to use izanagi, so the same should go for izanami. should. so either you dont need senju cells or itachi an sasuke has senju blood already


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## Samehada (Apr 7, 2012)

Don't worry, it will be the last time you will see Itachi's ninja Jesus techniques.


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## eyeknockout (Apr 7, 2012)

people live bound by what they consider real or true, but what does this mean, they are merely complete evidence that RockyIII has no idea what he's talking about and he's just mad because he never read mythology and never assumed the move with the most relevance (the sharingan) would get more techniques"-itachi


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## RockyIII (Apr 8, 2012)

eyeknockout said:


> people live bound by what they consider real or true, but what does this mean, they are merely complete evidence that RockyIII has no idea what he's talking about and he's just mad because he never read mythology and never assumed the move with the most relevance (the sharingan) would get more techniques"-itachi



You're in denial my friend. Blinded by the fact that you've put too much effort into reading this schlock. You can't face the truth that the manga has become far far worse than before.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 8, 2012)

Hated Uchiha said:


> when izanagi was first introduced everyone assumed izanami would be its counterpart



This doesn't make any sense.


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## Jeαnne (Apr 8, 2012)

you dont lack hatred 




HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> This doesn't make any sense.



only if you have zero shinto knowledge.

Izanami was as predictable as susanoo.


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## Appleofeden (Apr 8, 2012)

<<<this guy cares

Did you just start reading again or have U not been paying attention for the last 2 yrs?


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 8, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> Izanagi was REALLY STUPID TOO. I mean a power that rewrites reality? Are you kidding? That is the definition of bad writing and "I can't think of anything better." I thought we were getting away from that BS since it hadn't been mentioned in  a while. Then Itachi starts getting beat up, BUT DON'T WORRY. He has a new technique that he has never shown us or mentioned before and he's gonna use it right now to win the fight.
> 
> Does anyone else see how bad this writing is? Am I the only one? At least have him find strength inside or go through a character change or SOMETHING. The mangekyo sharingan has like 10 techniques already ITS ENOUGH.
> 
> ...


so you're just salty Sauce-Kay didn't get to solo Kabuto?


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## G Felon (Apr 8, 2012)

Your just a hater. I think it's cool that itachi has a new jutsu. Makes sense to he was trained by tobi a super elite ninja who knows everything about Sharingan and trained with shusui another Sharigan master. It wouldn't make sense if he didn't no about izanagi and iZanami.


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## Jeαnne (Apr 8, 2012)

Khris said:


> so you're just salty Sauce-Kay didn't get to solo Kabuto?


If anything, the fact that Itachi is showing Izanami is a pretty good sign for Sasuke's powers.

If Itachi can do, Sasuke also can, and most likely it will prove how EMS is special.


Before we were limited with the belief that this stuff needed senju DNA, now there are just two ways to go:

- Izanami can be performed by Uchihas alone.

or

- Itachi and Sasuke are Uchiha-Senju hybrids.


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## RockyIII (Apr 8, 2012)

Khris said:


> so you're just salty Sauce-Kay didn't get to solo Kabuto?



HAHAHA don't even get me started on Sasuke. He's more 1 dimensional than Itachi. He also has no place in this war but that is an argument for another thread. Sasuke is by far the worst character in this manga.


But Itachi is literally a walking mcguffin. Itachi and Minato ARE Kishi. Whenever they are in trouble he just gives them a new ultimate technique. They are the most 1 dimensional, perfect characters in the manga.


Oh scratch that, they don't have a character.

The only character who was developed in part 1 and wasn't ruined in part 2 is Kakashi. But even he is being slightly ruined by Kishi...


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 8, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> itachi always held back his real power. CANON. FACTUAL. he wasn't just any random villain who threw everything he got at once. he saved his eyes for the fight with sasuke. *it was never hinted he had izanagi because he never had to use it*, it's a *forbidden* jutsu used when the situation seems hopeless. itachi was never hopeless, until now.



It was never hinted because Kishi got the idea while drawing the last chapter


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## eyeknockout (Apr 8, 2012)

if itachi used izanami in life ,his eye would have been sealed, then sasuke wouldn't be able to achieve EMS...then what? itachi's entire life goal would be ruined. sasuke was more important to him than the village so it makes sense he wouldn't use it ever since he wanted sasuke to get his eyes for true power and to not go blind. Also itachi was never in a helpless situation before.


----------



## Klue (Apr 8, 2012)

RockyIII said:


> Dude I told you why it was bad writing. And izanagi was used by the rikudo to rewrite reality at some point in the manga I forget when.



Izanagi was never used by Rikudou and he never rewrote reality. Rikudou was capable of creating life by using his imagination as a template.

Inton provides shape/form, Yoton breaths life into that form.



RockyIII said:


> The writing is bad because nothing is introduced before hand. You can't just keep adding ultimate techniques to the sharingan and think that it's good writing. You need to build up to these things. You can't just have your character get in trouble and then give them some new technique that no one has ever mentioned or heard of before.



Again, I have to disagree. These are special circumstances.

The author isn't sliding a gun in Itachi's pocket; an object that exist separately from his person - a non-innate ability. Izanami is a power that those of his clan can use; a bloodline power.

Izanagi is the technique that gives Izanami room to find its way into the story. Through Danzou, we learned that the Uchiha Clan possess a brand of powerful and unique doujutsu that does not require the Mangekyou Sharingan, Izanagi.

Izanami, like Izanagi, is a special power that can only be used once per eye. It's not your every day trump card. And it's not a Mangekyou power, of which the author declared Susanoo to be the third and final technique.

These thoughts in mind, it's easy for the reader to see why the character wouldn't necessarily ever use or even hint at such power before. Again, they're *forbidden* powers only to be used in the most dier or unique circumstances - where *living* or obtaining *success* is absolutely more important than losing an eye.

Has Itachi ever fought under such circumstances before? 

Against Orochimaru, seven or eight years before the current plot?
Against Deidara?
Against Kakashi, Kurenai and Asuma?
Against Team 7 and Chiyo - while controlling a puppet from afar?
How about against Sasuke? - a battle that he didn't even attempt to win?
Against Nagato, while teamed up with Naruto and Bee?

What reason did he have to use this power? Why is it hard to accept the existence of another forbidden eye-sealing power that a side character or anti-hero possess, *innately*?

That said, dubiousness sets in if we learned he has Senju powers - *specifically*, Hahsirama's powers (plot hole).



RockyIII said:


> Itachi went from being much weaker than jiraya to being much stronger than pain in the manga. It's stupid itachi is the biggest troll...



lol, haven't even seen the technique yet, and already, you say this shit.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2012)

You missed the part where Naruto went bleach on us a few chapters back.


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## sworder (Apr 8, 2012)

Itachi is Kishimoto's greatest creation. He will keep coming back and saving this manga from becoming total garbage, kinda like this topic.


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## Uffie (Apr 8, 2012)

God, calm it.  You should just accept that Itachi is the best character in the manga, you should be pleased we are getting to see more of what he can actually do at last.


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## Klue (Apr 8, 2012)

For me, bad writing as it relates to abilities and techniques, correlates with believability. Is it really necessary for an author to hint at every trump card that a side, supporting, villain, or anti hero possess?

Where not talking about a main character here: Naruto or Sasuke. *The reader has witnessed their development first hand*. It's not believable for Sasuke to possess knowledge on Izanami when he didn't even know about Izanagi.

Just like it wasn't believable for him to possess a Hawk Summon. Yes, we know he is able to use the summoning technique, but when did he obtain a Hawk summoning contract?

Itachi isn't a main character like Sasuke; we have to give the author a bit more "slack" when writing these type of characters.


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## Hated Uchiha (Apr 8, 2012)

i guess kabuto having sage mode was also a plot hole
or tobi using izanagi
or haku's ice mirrors
or gaara's pyramid scheme
or kankaros* sasori puppet
or deidaras ultimate art bomb
or guy's morning peacock (pause)

the list goes on n on, this show of a technique that has yet to be seen by the reader, used by a *ninja* has been happening since the beginning of the series, if this last chapter is what opened your eyes then go back to sleep


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## Vice (Apr 8, 2012)

sworder said:


> Itachi is Kishimoto's greatest creation. He will keep coming back and saving this manga from becoming total garbage, kinda like this topic.





Uffie said:


> God, calm it.  You should just accept that Itachi is the best character in the manga, you should be pleased we are getting to see more of what he can actually do at last.



Stop it. Itachi's fucking terrible. In every sense of the word.


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## Death Note (Apr 9, 2012)

Klue said:


> For me, bad writing as it relates to abilities and techniques, correlates with believability. Is it really necessary for an author to hint at every trump card that a side, supporting, villain, or anti hero possess?
> 
> Where not talking about a main character here: Naruto or Sasuke. *The reader has witnessed their development first hand*. It's not believable for Sasuke to possess knowledge on Izanami when he didn't even know about Izanagi.
> 
> ...



I agree with this 100 percent.  I never looked at it that way.


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## Tazmo (Apr 9, 2012)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


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