# Blind Itachi vs. Blind Madara (Ch. 657 SPOILERS)



## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

*Location:* Blind Madara vs. Saucegay
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Both are alive (and blind, obviously).
-Neither one can use MS Jutsu, but Itachi can still use Izanami.
-No Senjutsu chakra for Madara; assume he hasn't stolen it yet.
-Assume that Itachi's sickness won't be an issue.
-Madara can only use that Katon mist/ash Jutsu and chakra absorption along with his Taijutsu; no weapons, no other Jutsu.

*Scenario 2:* Itachi, still blind, is allowed to use Susano'o. Madara is also allowed to use all of his base (i.e., non-Doujutsu and non-Mokuton) Jutsu.

How this go? 

Yes, I realize I'm just asking for it due to "OMG LATEST CHAPTER" hype.


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## Bonly (Dec 5, 2013)

Itachi isn't a sensor so he'll have zero idea where Madara is while on the other hand Madara can find Itachi and he'll burn Itachi alive.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 5, 2013)

With full knowledge, Itachi can hide his chakra from sensing, however.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Itachi fills his eyes with kunai......... oh wait.


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## Ersa (Dec 5, 2013)

Totsuka is a weapon, it doesn't need Sharingan 
Could go either way to be honest, no real way to tell. I'd probably favour Madara however based on hype.


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## Psp123789 (Dec 5, 2013)

Itachi solos 
For real this time


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## Legendary Itachi (Dec 5, 2013)

Itachi uses Susanoo without MS. 

I think Itachi solos.


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## Ersa (Dec 5, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Itachi uses Susanoo without MS.
> 
> I think Itachi solos.


Forest

Funnily enough he can :ignoramus

Maddy gets the Totsuka.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Forest
> 
> Funnily enough he can :ignoramus
> 
> Maddy gets the Totsuka.



I knew that, but I restricted the MS anyway because I didn't want Susano'o abuse to be the deciding factor. :ignoramus

I'll add a second scenario.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

Itachi takes the first one via bunshins + taijutsu. He has the edge with his arsenal imo. 

In the second one Itachi flash activates Susano'o arm and kills Madara in a heartbeat as soon as they close in on each other.
Though If Madara is allowed to use 25 Mokuton bunshins, there is a chance that he can outlast Itachi in that state.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 5, 2013)

Itachi loses the first scenario, Madara is definitely faster, stronger, and more durable than he is, all things that ease close combat in his favor. Clones can be taken care of with his newest Katon.

Itachi loses the second scenario. Mokuryu would wrap around, and absorb his Susanoo leaving him to be promptly finished off by Madara.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Guys, all of Madara's Ninjutsu have been restricted except for chakra absorption and the Katon ash cloud.

Think of this as Madara with Ch. 657-only feats, basically (not literally, but basically).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Guys, all of Madara's Ninjutsu have been restricted except for chakra absorption and the Katon ash cloud.
> 
> Think of this as Madara with Ch. 657-only feats, basically (not literally, but basically).



Doesn't 2nd scenario grant him his non dojutsu arsenal ?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't 2nd scenario grant him his non dojutsu arsenal ?



Ah, crap. :ignoramus

Let me just fix that...


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## Jad (Dec 5, 2013)

If I say Itachi wins do I get some sort of prize?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> If I say Itachi wins do I get some sort of prize?



Member of the Month. 

Nah, this ain't a contest; just don't say anything you wouldn't be able to back up if challenged.


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Madara blitzed Sage Naruto, so he does the same to Itachi.

Except he kills Itachi.


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## Turrin (Dec 5, 2013)

Itachi can't even fight blind lol.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Itachi can't even fight blind lol.





Rocky said:


> Madara blitzed Sage Naruto, so he does the same to Itachi.
> 
> Except he kills Itachi.



Hang on Madara, hater brigade is here


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hang on Madara, hater brigade is here




You don't have make a joke about it. It's pretty well established that I'm a borderline Itachi hater.

That said, I don't make stretched arguments because of personal bias. Blind Itachi isn't as fast/reflexive as Sage Naruto. He fares no better.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You don't have make a joke about it. It's pretty well established that I'm a borderline Itachi hater.
> 
> That said, I don't make stretched arguments because of personal bias. Blind Itachi isn't as fast/reflexive as Sage Naruto. He fares no better.



Says who ? 

He can casually dodge a blindsiding B while he is duking it out with Naruto. That feat is pure reflex/agility/speed.

Itachi has tier 5 speed in DB without sharingan as well.

Massive underestimation going on here.


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Says who ?
> 
> He can casually dodge a blindsiding B while he is duking it out with Naruto. That feat is pure reflex/agility/speed.
> 
> ...




Naruto has better Chakra control, better reflexes, and more Chakra to pump into Shunshin, so when it comes to the body flicker, Naruto is certainly faster.

Sage Naruto is likely a tier 5 in speed as well. Current Naruto is very likely faster than his 3.5 from hundreds of chapters ago. Then add the Sage Mode boost to body speed, and the sensing boost to reflexes, and he's easily on par with Base Gai, Itachi, etc. 

Itachi's skirmish with Naruto happened when Itachi could see, and therefore when Itachi has his highly advanced precognition activated. That increases his reflexes (and agility/flicker speed) tremendously. Dodging Bee's swing is the only thing he did "blind," and that isn't exactly impressive.


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## Vice (Dec 5, 2013)

This is stupid. Madara has sage sensing, Itachi does not.

Madara >>>>>> Itachi

Stop pretending that Itachi is on his level, he's not.


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## Jagger (Dec 5, 2013)

Sage sensing is restricted, though.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2013)

At 5m what can Itachi even do. Madara blitzed SM Naruto at a greater distance than that with 0 dif. He fucking mauls Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto has better Chakra control,


scans ?



> better reflexes,


scans ?


> and more Chakra to pump into Shunshin, so when it comes to the body flicker, Naruto is certainly faster.


With no feats to back that up.



> Sage Naruto is likely a tier 5 in speed as well.


Might be. Sage Naruto doesn't have impressive body speed or agility.
Which isn't surprising because an increase in speed was never highlighted during his SM training.




> Current Naruto is very likely faster than his 3.5 from hundreds of chapters ago.


I don't think he is. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be, but then Naruto is a power up user and never had a fight he took in base since like.. I can't even remember.
All of his trainings were power up related except for FRS and there is no need for me to believe that he somehow magically got faster without being have to train for it.



> Then add the Sage Mode boost to body speed, and the sensing boost to reflexes, and he's easily on par with Base Gai, Itachi, etc.



I'd agree with this, but Gai'd just outtaijutsu him with skill and agility and Itachi'd just outmanuver him with sharingan precog.

Being in the same ballpark doesn't make him as fast.



> Itachi's skirmish with Naruto happened when Itachi could see, and therefore when Itachi has his highly advanced precognition activated. That increases his reflexes (and agility/flicker speed) tremendously.


I never mentioned that part.




> Dodging Bee's swing is the only thing he did "blind," and that isn't exactly impressive.


While B isn't a speedster he is one of the "fast" guys and a pretty proficient dude in CQC. Itachi casually dodging him when he was busy with someone else is still impressive no matter how you look @ it.

And I mainly posted it to show that Itachi's body speed and reflexes are still special without the sharingan.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 5, 2013)

There's absolutely no reason for Madara to lose the first scenario. Although to be quite fair, Itachi DID fight blind. He fought the Hydra and then headed towards Sasuke with the exact same eye look as when he used Izanami. But Madara fights better blind. He is just simply better. 

In Scenario 2 he has a chance with Susano'o. That's it though.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> scans ?



Controlling Kurama's, senjutsu, and his chakra all at once. Hell senjutsu requires damn near perfect chakra control and only 3 people in the verse have it. Hashirama, god of shinobi, Naruto, prophet, and Kabuto, one of the best medical ninja's who have to have perfect chakra control, are the only ones.

Scan's of Itachi having good chakra control? Don't just give me fanboy shit, I want actual scans saying it or showing it.



> scans ?



Naruto has better reaction in SM than in RM. That's WAY better than Itachi.



> With no feats to back that up.



Are you implying Itachi has more chakra or that more chakra doesn't mean a faster shunshin? Ei has shown more chakra=faster shunshin. 



> Might be. Sage Naruto doesn't have impressive body speed or agility.
> Which isn't surprising because an increase in speed was never highlighted during his SM training.



Jiraiya's imperfect sm highlighted the speed difference. Pa said that EVERYTHING gets enhanced by SM, including hand-to-hand skills which include speed.



> I'd agree with this, but Gai'd just outtaijutsu him with skill and agility and Itachi'd just outmanuver him with sharingan precog.
> 
> Being in the same ballpark doesn't make him as fast.



Gai is a beast in taijutsu. Itachi can have sharingan precog, Naruto also has precog. And Naruto's precog isn't hindered by being too quick or unpredictable.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Controlling Kurama's, senjutsu, and his chakra all at once. Hell senjutsu requires damn near perfect chakra control and only 3 people in the verse have it. Hashirama, god of shinobi, Naruto, prophet, and Kabuto, one of the best medical ninja's who have to have perfect chakra control, are the only ones.
> 
> Scan's of Itachi having good chakra control? Don't just give me fanboy shit, I want actual scans saying it or showing it.



Is there anyway to compare these two ? 

Comparing characters in arbitrary stuff like chakra control requires us to have solid infomartion in the manga, like a direct comparison, statement or similar feats.

All I can say is that, Itachi by the virtue of being fuckloads more talented and having a lesser chakra pool(which forces him to make more effective use of his chakra) would make me lean in his favor in regards to chakra control.





> Naruto has better reaction in SM than in RM.* That's WAY better than Itachi.*


Scans ? 




> Are you implying Itachi has more chakra or that more chakra doesn't mean a faster shunshin?



Neither. 
Naruto in SM doesn't have speed feats. I don't remember him relying on speed in his battles in the first place.

And no, before you bring out killing Asura realm, it was an "off combat" feat and Asuma was targeting Tsunade. It was basically an ambush not a blitz.




> Ei has shown more chakra=faster shunshin.


A has shown insane reactions(that were said to be above Minato's) + Bijuu levels of chakra = fast shunshin.

Allocating massive amounts of chakra alone doesn't grant fast shunshin.
Otherwise guys like Kisame, Gaara or other shinobi with high level chakra pools would all move faster than Itachi.



> Jiraiya's imperfect sm highlighted the speed difference. Pa said that EVERYTHING gets enhanced by SM, including hand-to-hand skills which include speed.


I don't remember it.
I remember Pa explicitely stating that ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu were enhanced. It was shown that strength was greatly influenced as well as durability to some extend.
Speed was never mentioned.
I am not saying that speed isn't influenced. It logically is, because stronger legs will allow you to run faster, jump higher etc.
But speed was never SM's forte. 




> Gai is a beast in taijutsu. Itachi can have sharingan precog, Naruto also has precog. And Naruto's precog isn't hindered by being too quick or unpredictable.


TBH, Itachi's precog is better in direct hand to hand confrontations, because it literally allows you to see your opponents next move. Its not "sensing" it is actually seeing it.


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> scans ?








> scans ?








> With no feats to back that up.






Not that Itachi has impressive feats without his Sharingan (because he doesn't have any).



> Might be. Sage Naruto doesn't have impressive body speed or agility.












> I don't think he is. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be, but then Naruto is a power up user and never had a fight he took in base since like.. I can't even remember.
> All of his trainings were power up related except for FRS and there is no need for me to believe that he somehow magically got faster without being have to train for it.




It's called "natural Shounen development."



> I'd agree with this, but Gai'd just outtaijutsu him with skill and agility and Itachi'd just outmanuver him with sharingan precog.




If we bring skill into the equation, then the Frog Style Ghost Punches kill Base Gai and Sharingan Itachi.

Well, Gai may need more than a few hits. But Itachi's neck snaps.




> While B isn't a speedster he is one of the "fast" guys and a pretty proficient dude in CQC. Itachi casually dodging him when he was busy with someone else is still impressive no matter how you look @ it.
> 
> And I mainly posted it to show that Itachi's body speed and reflexes are still special without the sharingan.




Itachi did nothing "casually;" he immediately disengaged from Naruto the moment Bee entered the fight. And by the way, Itachi had his Sharingan activated. His flicker speed, agility, and general mobility were still enhanced. 

So, please present this evidence of Sharingan-less Itachi being faster than Naruto (or even anywhere near him).


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 5, 2013)

since when does madara have sage sensing? there goes people inventing feats again.

madara clearly wins.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Is there anyway to compare these two ?
> 
> Comparing characters in arbitrary stuff like chakra control requires us to have solid infomartion in the manga, like a direct comparison, statement or similar feats.
> 
> All I can say is that, Itachi by the virtue of being fuckloads more talented and having a lesser chakra pool(which forces him to make more effective use of his chakra) would make me lean in his favor in regards to chakra control.



Oh what happened to the mighty Itachi's chakra control. No scan's of that shit. Just fucking virtue. That chakra pool shit is also BULLSHIT.

Clone jutsu requires 30% chakra. Itachi has to use 30% NO MATTER WHAT.  He's good to the point of where he MAY get exactly 30%. But don't give me shit about it without FUCKING SCANS. Itachifans talk shit all the time so prove some shit.

Naruto has SM which takes amazing chakra control. Naruto controls chakra arms which takes amazing chakra control. He gives cloaks of Kurama's chakra out which requires AMAZING chakra control. Naruto created FRS which takes AMAZING chakra control. What does Itachi have.



> Scans ?



RM Naruto reacted to Fullspeed A, Itachi struggled reacting to Kabuto. Naruto said he had better reactions in SM. 




> Neither.
> Naruto in SM doesn't have speed feats. I don't remember him relying on speed in his battles in the first place.



He blitzed Asura path. Who has Itachi ever blitzed? And give me a real blitz where he actually hurt the person. He can get behind someone all he wants but a blitz means the person can't react to it.



> And no, before you bring out killing Asura realm, it was an "off combat" feat and Asuma was targeting Tsunade. It was basically an ambush not a blitz.



Naruto was in the vision of ALL the paths. So yeah, it's a blitz.



> A has shown insane reactions(that were said to be above Minato's) + Bijuu levels of chakra = fast shunshin.
> 
> Allocating massive amounts of chakra alone doesn't grant fast shunshin.
> Otherwise guys like Kisame, Gaara or other shinobi with high level chakra pools would all move faster than Itachi.



So if it's not chakra pool, then it's chakra control. Either way Itachi LOSES.



> I don't remember it.
> I remember Pa explicitely stating that ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu were enhanced. It was shown that strength was greatly influenced as well as durability to some extend.
> Speed was never mentioned.
> I am not saying that speed isn't influenced. It logically is, because stronger legs will allow you to run faster, jump higher etc.
> But speed was never SM's forte.



Pa said everything gets better. Speed is in everything.



> TBH, Itachi's precog is better in direct hand to hand confrontations, because it literally allows you to see your opponents next move. Its not "sensing" it is actually seeing it.



Naruto can fight with his eyes fucking closed and you're telling me Itachi's is better LOL. You're grasping badly. Naruto is better, faster, and stronger than Itachi. Sorry.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2013)

Madara rape stomps both.

Scenario 1 is a joke, Itachi cannot even fight blind whereas Madara is a sensor. Itachi won't be able to do much against Madara once he uses his Katon and absorption jutsu.

Scenario 2: Madara, knowing about Susanoo, can probably outlast Itachi. That or blind Itachi with the Katon he used to escape Naruto, Sasuke and Sai then absorb Susanoo and stomp Itachi has hard has he would in scenario 1.

Itachi doesn't tend to fair well when he's fighting super foes who can absorb chakra.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> since when does madara have sage sensing? there goes people inventing feats again.
> 
> madara clearly wins.



Inventing feats... you do realise that Sage Mode *comes with* sage sensing, right? What did Madara gain when he absorbed Hashirama's chakra?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 5, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Inventing feats... you do realise that Sage Mode *comes with* sage sensing, right? What did Madara gain when he absorbed Hashirama's chakra?


he gained potentially stronger mokuton but even this is questionable since he couldnt even replicate the mokujin, which even base hashirama can use.

even though madara took hashirama senjutsu for whatever reason, nothing that madara did this chapter is new, as hashirama equated it with what base madara could do in the past.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 5, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> he gained potentially stronger mokuton but even this is questionable since he couldnt even replicate the mokujin, which even base hashirama can use.
> 
> even though madara took hashirama senjutsu for whatever reason, nothing that madara did this chapter is new, as hashirama equated it with what base madara could do in the past.



However we know he has SM seeing as he clearly mentioned that he was manipulating it. On top of that, he clearly said he'd try to aim for Hashirama's Sennin power. 
All these things point to him getting SM - in a odd way. That's like assuming Kabuto's jutsu didn't get a power up because it wasn't stated his SM powers up his jutsu.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 5, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However we know he has SM seeing as he clearly mentioned that he was manipulating it. On top of that, he clearly said he'd try to aim for Hashirama's Sennin power.


madara only said that the amount of senjutsu that he gained from hashirama would be easy to handle, which means that he is talking about actually balancing the chakra.


> All these things point to him getting SM - in a odd way. That's like assuming Kabuto's jutsu didn't get a power up because it wasn't stated his SM powers up his jutsu.


to  determine whether kabutos jutsus got powered up or not, you would use feats. different sage modes have been shown to give different kinds of boosts.

this is why the mokujin that sage hashirama uses isnt any stronger than the mokujin that base hashirama uses(although base hashirama still apparently uses senjutsu)


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Dec 5, 2013)

Scenario 1: Blind Madara literally laughed in Sasuke's face and called him a bitch-made weakling. I don't think Itachi can fare any better than that.

Scenario 2: Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror solo.


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## Jad (Dec 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If we bring skill into the equation, then the Frog Style Ghost Punches kill Base Gai and Sharingan Itachi.
> Well, Gai may need more than a few hits. But Itachi's neck snaps.



Wait, Ghost punches aren't killing Gai, the best feat they have is killing a fat Pain with absolutely no durability feats. He didn't even go flying backwards, he only spun around and hit a certain distance. You can't equate that to killing a much more durable ninja can you?


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> Wait, Ghost punches aren't killing Gai, the best feat they have is killing a fat Pain with absolutely no durability feats. He didn't even go flying backwards, he only spun around and hit a certain distance. You can't equate that to killing a much more durable ninja can you?




Gai isn't going to enjoy getting smashed repeatedly by Sage Naruto in a vulnerable spot like the face or neck. He is definitely sturdy, but he isn't an absolute durability freak like a Raikage or someone of the sort.


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## Jad (Dec 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Gai isn't going to enjoy getting smashed repeatedly by Sage Naruto in a vulnerable spot like the face or neck. He is definitely sturdy, but he isn't an absolute durability freak like a Raikage or someone of the sort.



Not saying repeated hits won't be bad for Gai, just saying one won't kill him. Doesn't matter really, Gai is not going to throw base attacks at him if they ever fight. His better off going gated, where he has the advantage.


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> Not saying repeated hits won't be bad for Gai, just saying one won't kill him. Doesn't matter really, Gai is not going to throw base attacks at him if they ever fight. His better off going gated, where he has the advantage.




I agree, and I even said to would take more than one hit in the post you quoted.

Naruto can't beat Gated Gai hand to hand, or even come close, but Naruto has far greater ranged attacks anyway. Attacks that can lead to a sure victory, such as that super duper great big huge Rasenshuriken. 

Though 8th Gate Gai rips Naruto's legs off and beats him to death. Then his sweat takes the shape of a tiger and eats Naruto.


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## Jagger (Dec 5, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> he gained potentially stronger mokuton but even this is questionable since he couldnt even replicate the mokujin, which even base hashirama can use.


Maybe, maybe not. Madara never tried to replicate Hashirama's technique, he relied heavily on Susano'O, though.




> even though madara took hashirama senjutsu for whatever reason, nothing that madara did this chapter is new, as hashirama equated it with what base madara could do in the past.


I think the reason Madara took Hashirama's sennin powers is likely because it gives an obvious boost of power and thus, his skills with Mokuton are even more powerful. Very useful against the free Bijuus he need to capture.


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## Sans (Dec 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You don't have make a joke about it. It's pretty well established that I'm a borderline Itachi hater.
> 
> That said, I don't make stretched arguments because of personal bias. Blind Itachi isn't as fast/reflexive as Sage Naruto. He fares no better.



I always thought you were pretty reasonable lol.


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> I always thought you were pretty reasonable lol.




That's because I don't hate (or love) any fictional character to the extent where it affects my reading comprehension. 

I know where Itachi stands. If I dislike his character, that doesn't change his abilities. When I see "Katsuyu > Itachi," I cringe regardless of my personal opinion, because I try to be as objective as possible. I also expect everybody else to attempt the same, so when people write stuff like that, I don't think "hater." I think "idiot."

Honestly, I don't even hate Itachi really. I don't hate any Naruto character. I like some more than others, no character really bothers me. I just feel Itachi is often overrated, and thus tend to debate against him alot. That's probably because he's often matched against people I think he's clearly weaker than at this point, primarily Minato. Obito is another.


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## Sans (Dec 5, 2013)

Of course nothing will ever erase the shame of arguing in favour of Haku over Itachi.


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## Rocky (Dec 6, 2013)

I know a certain Itachi fan who might've agreed with me back then.  Haku is no joke.


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## Brooks (Dec 6, 2013)

Madara made Naruto into his personal bitch....lol, wait....he was always a personal bitch for anyone.

I love the King but he doesn't stand a chance against Madara...


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## Ersa (Dec 6, 2013)

Itachi ain't getting blitzed here, the dude has reflexes equal or superior to EMS Sauce. Without his eyes he might be not as nimble however :ignoramus


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## Brooks (Dec 6, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Itachi ain't getting blitzed here, the dude has reflexes equal or superior to EMS Sauce. Without his eyes he might be not as nimble however :ignoramus



Wait, i forgot that incredible feat from the King


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## Magicbullet (Dec 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> *Itachi isn't a sensor* so he'll have zero idea where Madara is while on the other hand Madara can find Itachi and he'll burn Itachi alive.



Actually, I couldn't wrap my mind around the idea that Itachi is _not _a sensor. I _do _remember what he said to Kabuto about Nagato's ability not being his, but I doubt he meant he didn't have sensing. (the kind of ability the rinnegan confers seems to be different from regular sensing). 
If Itachi had no sensing abilities at all then how could he possibly fight Orochimaru the way he did?
He's obviously blind and perceiving things other than by sight. And he could even tell when Orochimaru himself came out of the snake. 
Itachi can't not be, to some degree, a sensor. 




As for the match, I think Mads might be getting Totsuka'd, though he might also avoid it for long enough to kill Itachi. 50/50


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

Doesn't prove anything. It lists other attributes as well.


How does that prove that he has better reflexes than Itachi ? 

Sasuke was able to accomplish the same thing against A and even after getting his EMS he still couldn't react as fast as Itachi to Kabuto's attacks.



> Not that Itachi has impressive feats without his Sharingan (because he doesn't have any).



Thats an ambush feat.  Off paneled so it doesn't count.



>


Read above.




> It's called "natural Shounen development."


I don't know about that.
Lets leave the unknowns out of this shall we ? 



> If we bring skill into the equation, then the Frog Style Ghost Punches kill Base Gai and Sharingan Itachi.
> Well, Gai may need more than a few hits. But Itachi's neck snaps.


Or Itachi stabs him in the eye with a Kunai.






> Itachi did nothing "casually;" *he immediately disengaged from Naruto the moment Bee entered the fight*.


By *casually* dodging B 





> And by the way, Itachi had his Sharingan activated. His flicker speed, agility, and general mobility were still enhanced.



Itachi jumped and backflipped out of there. He didn't flicker.
And Sharingan doesn't increase speed and agility or general mobility.

Plus even if everything you said is true, then it doesn't effect my argument, Itachi dodged B without a flicker but by moving to the side @ first.
Anyways, 

#Stopthebullshit




> So, please present this evidence of Sharingan-less Itachi being faster than Naruto (or even anywhere near him).



Sasuke >= SM Madara
If you think sharingan precog and sage sensing are more or less equal then in base they'd be also close.
Itachi is faster than Sasuke. So he should be in the same ballpark. The ballpark that Madara is in who speedblitzed SM Naruto


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Oh what happened to the mighty Itachi's chakra control. No scan's of that shit. Just fucking virtue. That chakra pool shit is also BULLSHIT.
> 
> Clone jutsu requires 30% chakra. Itachi has to use 30% NO MATTER WHAT.  He's good to the point of where he MAY get exactly 30%. But don't give me shit about it without FUCKING SCANS. Itachifans talk shit all the time so prove some shit.
> 
> ...



Why are you so angry...

Anyways I am still waiting for you to prove that Naruto has better chakra control 




> RM Naruto reacted to Fullspeed A, Itachi struggled reacting to Kabuto. Naruto said he had better reactions in SM.


Itachi had no trouble reacting to Kabuto. But Sasuke did, the same Sasuke who just landed a blow on SM Madara, who in base speedblitzed Naruto 






> He blitzed Asura path. Who has Itachi ever blitzed? And give me a real blitz where he actually hurt the person. He can get behind someone all he wants but a blitz means the person can't react to it.


He didn't blitz Asura, he ambushed him.



> Naruto was in the vision of ALL the paths. So yeah, it's a blitz.


No its not.
It was off combat and Pain's target was someone else.

If SM Naruto was fast enough to speed blitz Pain when all of their vision is on him, then why did he waste time throwing a FRS ? Pain could react to FRS just fine, if Naruto is fast enough to blitz Pain then he logically should move faster than FRS.

Yeah. Naruto moves faster  than the projectile he throws 



> So if it's not chakra pool, then it's chakra control. Either way Itachi LOSES.


Yeah.. no.




> Pa said everything gets better. Speed is in everything.


And he went ahead and explained in detail what everything was.
Speed wasn't among them.




> Naruto can fight with his eyes fucking closed and you're telling me Itachi's is better LOL. You're grasping badly. Naruto is better, faster, and stronger than Itachi. Sorry.



Itachi fought blind as well. 
Naruto isn't better or faster. I agree that he is physically stronger. But thats all he is.


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2013)

Sasuke's feats are not Itachi's feats. Easy to dispel EMS because of the Kabuto fight, but ever since Sasuke entered the war we're seeing the growth of the EMS into the value it really holds.

Sasuke's perceptual ability should be an entire tier above Itachi's.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> Sasuke's feats are not Itachi's feats. Easy to dispel EMS because of the Kabuto fight, but ever since Sasuke entered the war we're seeing the growth of the EMS into the value it really holds.
> 
> Sasuke's perceptual ability should be an entire tier above Itachi's.


To be perfeclty honest, if Sasuke hasn't gone through a tremendous amount change in between his fight with Kabuto and this, then I don't think he should be above Itachi by a large margin if he is any at all.

I think we are up against a classic Itachi underestimation here.

Sort of like when Naruto first got his KCM and battledome was crawling with threads of KCM Naruto blitz murdering Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Anyways I am still waiting for you to prove that Naruto has better chakra control



>Scans proving Naruto has amazing chakra control.
>No scans of Itachi even having ok chakra control.
>Still thinks Itachi's better just because.

This is the battledome, get feats or you're wrong. You can't just make up shit for the sake of it.



> Itachi had no trouble reacting to Kabuto. But Sasuke did, the same Sasuke who just landed a blow on SM Madara, who in base speedblitzed Naruto



When did Sasuke have trouble? During muki tensei? Yeah it's the other way around. Sasuke didn't need to protect himself because nothing was going to hit him, and he saw that. Itachi couldn't see what was going to happen and protected Sasuke and caused himself to get hit.



> He didn't blitz Asura, he ambushed him.



He blitzed him. Every pain had Naruto in LOS meaning Asura could see him.



> No its not.
> It was off combat and Pain's target was someone else.
> 
> If SM Naruto was fast enough to speed blitz Pain when all of their vision is on him, then why did he waste time throwing a FRS ? Pain could react to FRS just fine, if Naruto is fast enough to blitz Pain then he logically should move faster than FRS.



How was it off combat when we saw the WHOLE thing. PNJ pretty much sums everything up.



> Yeah.. no.



We know Naruto has a bigger pool of chakra, and we have scans about his amazing chakra control (learning perfect sage mode which requires perfect chakra control) while Itachi's chakra pool is shit, and no scans of his chakra control. Yeah...Yeah



> And he went ahead and explained in detail what everything was.
> Speed wasn't among them.



Shunsin takes chakra. Senjutsu makes you're chakra WAY stronger. That means logically the shunsin gets better, and faster. 



> Itachi fought blind as well.
> Naruto isn't better or faster. I agree that he is physically stronger. But thats all he is.



He stabbed a huge ass summon with susanoo. He didn't do anything physical like Naruto has done.


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> To be perfeclty honest, if Sasuke hasn't gone through a tremendous amount change in between his fight with Kabuto and this, then I don't think he should be above Itachi by a large margin if he is any at all.
> 
> I think we are up against a classic Itachi underestimation here.
> 
> Sort of like when Naruto first got his KCM and battledome was crawling with threads of KCM Naruto blitz murdering Itachi.


I agree to some extent. Back then, with EMS still fresh Sasuke would have edged out Itachi but by no means would have left his brother in the dust.

It's not really underestimation when EMS has been out for a while now. From beginning to track Juubito to keeping up with Madara, the difference between their perceptual ability is clear.


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## sephseph (Dec 6, 2013)

*where would u guys rank current ichigo in naruto?*

I say god tier


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 6, 2013)

Edo Itachi and EMS Sauce(kabuto fight) were right around the same tier. Itachi was slightly better imo.

Current EMS sauce has shown enough growth to suggest he's substantially stronger as of now though imo.


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## Rocky (Dec 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't prove anything. It lists other attributes as well.




Please provide a better chakra control feat for Itachi.




> How does that prove that he has better reflexes than Itachi ?
> 
> Sasuke was able to accomplish the same thing against A and even after getting his EMS he still couldn't react as fast as Itachi to Kabuto's attacks.




Itachi did that with his Sharingan. Sasuke also did what he did against Ei with his Sharingan.

Itachi doesn't have a Sharingan.



> Thats an ambush feat.  Off paneled so it doesn't count.




We know where Naruto started from, and the general time frame of when. Not an ambush feat.

Naruto didn't even ambush Pain.  Nagato clearly knew Naruto was there. Are you okay? 




> Or Itachi stabs him in the eye with a Kunai.




Just like the Raikage. 



> And Sharingan doesn't increase speed and agility or general mobility.




Yet Madara points out how well Sasuke _moves_ due to his Sharingan. Bee also pointed that Yugito was _moving_ better than she ever did in life, thanks to the Sharingan.

So yes it does.



> Sasuke >= SM MadaraIf you think sharingan precog and sage sensing are more or less equal then in base they'd be also close.




Madara was dodging Sasuke's attacks with his eyes shut.



> Itachi is faster than Sasuke. So he should be in the same ballpark. The ballpark that Madara is in who speedblitzed SM Naruto




Itachi isn't faster anymore; Ssauke now has the better reflexive feats.


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## Bonly (Dec 6, 2013)

Magicbullet said:


> How can you possibly state, and further, know or be sure that it is the same type of sensing? Beyond saying that nagato sensed Kabuto's chakra (meaning, tracked his position), nothing is specified about his technique.



Because it was outright said that Nagato was able to sense Kabuto's chakra. He is not suggested to have anything more nor does the manga hints that the Rinnegan can do more, it seems like you're trying to make something out of nothing.  




> Except, you know, that _totally subtle_ ability where it allows the user to project his chackra over long distances, controlling and coordinating bodies that are not his own?
> The Rinnegan has been shown to do far more than simply see chakra. There is plenty to suggest that it can grant awareness and control, for the second depends on the first.



Being able to project chakra has nothing to do with sensing in itself nor is that hinted as such in the manga. Again it seems like you're pretty much trying to make something out of nothing.




> Sure, I meant  this panel  where Itachi feels Orochimaru's Hydra Technique. Him using the rest of his senses might explain how he was able to fight it (if we use fringe logic) but doesn't explain certain things like him being able to identify it, being able to tell when Orochimaru is about to show himself (before the latter starts laughing) and Itachi using the words "this feeling".



If I blind folded you, set a house on fire and had you walk to it, you would be able to feel the heat and know(at least I hope) that there is a fire eventually. If I took a bat and swung it full force if front of your face, you could tell that something just happened in front of your face.  Itachi had seen the jutsu before which left a feeling with him upon which he felt again. Assuming Itachi didn't suddenly lose his basic math counting skills, he should know that he cut off 7 heads which means only one head was left and since he knows Orochi he could've simple guess that Orochi would pop up like he did, just like when he guess Kabuto would go after Sasuke once he used white rage.


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