# Sharingan Itachi vs. Jiraiya (No SM)



## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2015)

Distance: 20 m
Location: Kakashi vs. Kakuzu
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: whatever they know about each other
Restrictions: MS, SM, Izanami/Izanagi (shouldn't have to say but will)

Who wins?


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2015)

Haven't we seen this in the manga already?! 

Itachi will run fast as he did. However, with no amaterasu now he wont be able
To escape. Thus, the battle will end with that same 1 move.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2015)

Umm, they have to fight each other, they can't just run away


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2015)

How is itachi suppose to deal with that jutsu? 
If he was able to do so, he wouldn't have used his MS. 

Either way, jman wins this


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## Alex Payne (Aug 25, 2015)

Jiraiya didn't show that he can use Toad Stomach in the open area. Nor did he show that he can catch Itachi with it when Itachi is actually fighting him/focusing on him.

Unless Jiraiya gets full knowledge and summons Ma+Pa right away he doesn't stand a chance imo.


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2015)

Toad Stomach is a summoning jutsu, he can do it wherever he wants. 



> Unless Jiraiya gets full knowledge and summons Ma+Pa right away he doesn't stand a chance imo.


Itachi begs to differ.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 25, 2015)

> NINJUTSU; Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari (Summoning: Bound inside the Mouth of the Toad)
> User: Jiraiya
> Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: A
> 
> ...


 It isn't as good when used in the open.

Itachi said that only Sharingan-user with the same blood can beat him. If you want to believe everything Itachi says...


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2015)

- "not as good" does not mean it can't happened. 
- "Only a sannin can defeat a sannin" counter that, and then itachi's statement added

Jman 2
itachi 1


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## Alex Payne (Aug 25, 2015)

Not as good means it wouldn't look/work as it did in the hotel. So Jiraiya can't replicate the move in this location.

And you should recheck your statements. Sannin one was "we need Sannin to battle another Sannin". As we don't have anyone as strong as you guys. Or do you think Sannin > Minato?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 25, 2015)

Itachi pulls the shit he pulled against B, Jiraiya either gets blitzed or genjutsu GG'd.

Jiraiya needs some advantages here to stand a chance. 
Like distance, location and knowledge and perhaps some restrictions on Itachi.


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## Mercurial (Aug 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - "not as good" does not mean it can't happened.
> - "Only a sannin can defeat a sannin" counter that, and then itachi's statement added
> 
> Jman 2
> itachi 1



But Itachi isn't a Sannin and still defeated Orochimaru, Kabuto isn't a Sannin and was defeating Tsunade, Sasuke isn't a Sannin and defeated Orochimaru 

Itachi blitzes Jiraiya with far better speed, Sharingan precognition and quick and skilled usage of Karasu Bunshin/Kage Bunshin, or genjutsu GG.


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## Ersa (Aug 25, 2015)

I mean Itachi defeated full power Orochimaru in base.

The Sannin are stated by Kishimoto to be combat equals too.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I mean Itachi defeated full power Orochimaru in base.
> 
> The Sannin are stated by Kishimoto to be combat equals too.



lel. Orochimaru was just going to escape, but his hand was cut. Imo, without genjutsu or with knowledge on genjutsu oro kicks alive Itachi's ass ( with part 1 edo he takes it mid-high diff.
The same kishi who stated that Jiraiya could kill tsunade in base, or with 30% chakra ? Or the same who stated Jiraiya's powers were needed to defeat Orochimaru ? .

Oh, Jiraiya and Oro were quite even in battle, even if both were equally handicapped,but.. ya know.. Jiraiya was in base 

About the match-up. Itachi looses to FCD or Yomi Numa.  Jiraiya has knowledge on sharingan genjutsu and knows how to counter it. Other than that, Itachi has nothing to get through hari jizo.


If the distance is increased, it can become a nightmare for Itachi because of gamayu endan.


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## The Undying (Aug 25, 2015)

Every time.


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2015)

Using statements as pure canon, like Ei being the fastest man alive and how pointless was debating if he had knowledge or not, Itachi said he would tie with Jiraiya.

Itachi had no knowledge on Jiraiya's Sage Mode, and he was counting his MS techniques to fight a base Jiraiya.

So yeah, Itachi himself said he and Kisame couldn't take on Jiraiya. Restricted Itachi has no hope here. Even Tsunade could do it considering how she mocked Kakashi from losing to only "two guys", despite knowing that Itachi himself was one of them.

.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2015)

No Sage Mode so that means it's the legendary Base Jiraiya who can take out all of the Akatsuki(bar animal path) by himself vs two members of the Akatsuki, neither of which are animal path? Ha Jiraiya has this in the bag


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Using statements as pure canon, like Ei being the fastest man alive and how pointless was debating if he had knowledge or not, Itachi said he would tie with Jiraiya.
> 
> Itachi had no knowledge on Jiraiya's Sage Mode, and he was counting his MS techniques to fight a base Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



Wow, irony does not help you in a debate like this so.. Ciao !
Featwise, Non restricted sick Itachi is > Base Jiraiya, but << than Sm Jiraiya.
No MS Sick Itachi < Base Jiraiya, simply because his only way to win is genjutsu while Jiraiya has dunno how many ways to kick his ass ( CQC, mid range or long range ). Here Jiraiya has knowledge so bye, bye genjutsu.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Bonly said:


> No Sage Mode so that means it's the legendary Base Jiraiya who can take out all of the Akatsuki(bar animal path) by himself vs two members of the Akatsuki, neither of which are animal path? Ha Jiraiya has this in the bag



Another one who really believes Animal path > Base Jiraiya


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Another one who really believes Animal path > Base Jiraiya



Omg, don't fall for that bait...


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Another one who really believes Animal path > Base Jiraiya



Animal path forced Jiraiya to think "Holy shit this guy is super strong. Even though I can beat the Akatsuki by myself without Sage Mode, this guy is gonna make me go Sage Mode just to not die in five second". Mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn if that doesn't tell you about the greatness that is animal path then I don't know what will


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Animal path forced Jiraiya to think "Holy shit this guy is super strong. Even though I can beat the Akatsuki by myself without Sage Mode, this guy is gonna make me go Sage Mode just to not die in five second". Mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn if that doesn't tell you about the greatness that is animal path then I don't know what will



there is a specific panel where Jiraiya clearly states that he does not want to fight him in base because he is a rinnegan user, but you know, that was a while ago and you probably forgot about it.
He said that he was not even going to learn how he fights, something like: '' Dayum, this guy has the rinnegan, I will have to go full force and rape him . ''


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Wow, irony does not help you in a debate like this so.. Ciao !
> Featwise, Non restricted sick Itachi is > Base Jiraiya, but << than Sm Jiraiya.
> No MS Sick Itachi < Base Jiraiya, simply because his only way to win is genjutsu while Jiraiya has dunno how many ways to kick his ass ( CQC, mid range or long range ). Here Jiraiya has knowledge so bye, bye genjutsu.



I'm not being ironic. I'm using the statements everybody loves to use when they are convenient. 

You're arguing against Itachi's very words there. So, now statements are not valid?

Ok, tell me then how Itachi deals with three gigantic frogs shooting huge AoE blasts against him while at the same time he needs to keep an eye on Yomi Numa to not being trapped, and all of Jiraiya's trickery.

Genjutsu's his only way of winning here.


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## Hachibi (Aug 25, 2015)

Frogs are getting Genjutsu'd tho.

Just like Sasuke Genjutsu'd Manda


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## Hachibi (Aug 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> And So the troll began.
> 
> Base was not enough because he was facing the rinnegan, not because he was facing a summoner. Have you at least read that part of the manga ? Plus, Nagato had knowledge on Jiraiya's barrier which was vital for him. Featwise, every summon animal path brings gets sunk in Yomi numa and then Jiraiya chases him with the barrier  until he gets bored and uses gamayu endan or yomi numa on a great AOE to rape the chameleon



Good God, you can't notice he is joking, even with the smilies and all?


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I'm not being ironic. I'm using the statements everybody loves to use when they are convenient.
> 
> You're arguing against Itachi's very words there. So, now statements are not valid?
> 
> ...



well it would be OOC for him to summon all three.
I agree with you that genjutsu is his only way of winning and  it is unlikely to happen. We are arguing even though we share the same idea and opinion. 
For me it is not necessarily the big summons throwing their swords and all at Itachi, which would still be a quite unescapable nightmare for him, but FCD and Yomi numa which could be one-shot kills.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Frogs are getting Genjutsu'd tho.
> 
> Just like Sasuke Genjutsu'd Manda



Jiraiya and the toads do the leap of faith and take distance . I do not see Itachi genjutsu'ing all the three of them at the same time plus they have to make eye contact which is close to impossible and plus Jiraiya could snap them out  or why not even Bunta.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> And So the troll began.
> 
> Base was not enough because he was facing the rinnegan, not because he was facing a summoner. Have you at least read that part of the manga ? Plus, Nagato had knowledge on Jiraiya's barrier which was vital for him. Featwise, every summon animal path brings gets sunk in Yomi numa and then Jiraiya chases him with the barrier  until he gets bored and uses gamayu endan or yomi numa on a great AOE to rape the chameleon



Bro the summoner and the Rinnegan user are one in the same when it comes to Animal path so yes Base wasn't enough for Animal path overall. Nagato has a bird that can fly so that wouldn't get sunk by the swamp and as we saw the dog can have multiple bodies pop out from different directions meaning that if it's caught in the swamp it can make more bodies that jump out and not touch the ground thus being safe.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Bro the summoner and the Rinnegan user are one in the same when it comes to Animal path so yes Base wasn't enough for Animal path overall. Nagato has a bird that can fly so that wouldn't get sunk by the swamp and as we saw the dog can have multiple bodies pop out from different directions meaning that if it's caught in the swamp it can make more bodies that jump out and not touch the ground thus being safe.



Again, you did not get the point. Jiraiya did not need sm against a summoner, but against a rinnegan user, who was able to master all the elements at the age of ten, a user who could kill a chuunin in moments without even being a ninja. 

The flying summon is easily dispatched with ranjishigami, while the dog is sunk by a huge ass yomi numa who would trap most of the dogs if not all.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Again, you did not get the point. Jiraiya did not need sm against a summoner, but against a rinnegan user, who was able to master all the elements at the age of ten, a user who could kill a chuunin in moments without even being a ninja.



Again you don't seem to get the point. Is Animal path a Rinnegan user? Yes. Is Animal path a summoner? Yes. Is the summoner and the Rinnegan user one in the same? Yes. So in other words when we break it down, Jiraiya did need to go Sage Mode against a summoner. 



> The flying summon is easily dispatched with ranjishigami, while the dog is sunk by a huge ass yomi numa who would trap most of the dogs if not all.



The bird stays out of range thus Ranjishigami does jack shit and the dog can keep on multiplying so eventually a dog or a few would get out of the AoE of the swamp no matter how big Jiraiya makes it.


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## ~M~ (Aug 25, 2015)

Jiraiya is way out of prime compared to Itachi and he can't match his speed or jutsu without SM, high(low) difficulty win for Itachi


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Jiraiya himself stated that he will not stay and watch how animal path fights. He decided to go into sage mode before seeing his abillities, just because Jiraiya saw the sage of six paths eyes.

The flying summon gets close and in that moment Jiraiya rips it apart with ranjishigami. if yomi numa doesn't fully work on cerberus, Jiraiya calls the other two toads, while he and Bunta go after the chameleon


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2015)

So in other words, yet again it's basically a case of him needing Sage Mode to fight Animal path. Alright then glad you agree

The bird stays out of range so Ranjishigami does jack shit and as we saw the dog had said two toads surrounded so it's not like they can do much not to mention more bodies of the dog just allows it to put Bunta in the same position


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Bonly said:


> So in other words, yet again it's basically a case of him needing Sage Mode to fight Animal path. Alright then glad you agree
> 
> The bird stays out of range so Ranjishigami does jack shit and as we saw the dog had said two toads surrounded so it's not like they can do much not to mention more bodies of the dog just allows it to put Bunta in the same position



Nope, Jiraiya needed sm against Nagato, The Child of the prophecy, the wielder of the rinnegan. Jiraiya had no knowledge on the path. I like your trolling 

Jiraiya calls the other two to keep the dogs occupied while he finds and rapes animal path.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2015)

Who is controlling the path? Nagato. Whose chakra is powering the path? Nagato. Who gave Animal path those Rinnegan eyes? Nagato. So Nagato and Animal path are kinda one and the same and still Jiraiya felt the need to go into Sage Mode against Animal path.

The dog can make more bodies to go after Jiraiya and Bunta to stop Jiraiya from finding him if he even can


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

he didn't go to sage mode against Animal Path, but against his eyes, if you know what i mean. I am already tired of debating with you. Still, would 3-tomoe Itachi do better against animal path ? I do not think so.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 25, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Jiraiya didn't show that he can use Toad Stomach in the open area. Nor did he show that he can catch Itachi with it when Itachi is actually fighting him/focusing on him.
> 
> Unless Jiraiya gets full knowledge and summons Ma+Pa right away he doesn't stand a chance imo.



I agree with Alex.

Bee w/ Samehada was way better equipped than base Jiraiya to fend Itachi off.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I agree with Alex.
> 
> Bee w/ Samehada was way better equipped than base Jiraiya to fend Itachi off.



lol, giving edo feats to sick Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Aug 25, 2015)

OP doesn't say Itachi's sick.

Zetsu said Itachi was "usually" much stronger.

i.e. sick Itachi is the exception to living Itachi, not the norm.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 25, 2015)

While I'm actually thinking about this....when characters' knowledge is _"whatever they know about each other"_, and there are restrictions, do they know about the restrictions too?


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## Bloo (Aug 26, 2015)

With the mindset being in character and their one encounter where Jiraiya massively underrated Itachi and Itachi didn't do such to Jiraiya, I'd say Itachi has an upper-hand. Jiraiya stupidly looked directly into Itachi's eyes in their encounter and that could have been a game-ender if Itachi's goal was to challenge Jiraiya.

Regardless, Itachi wins as he has greater speed, skill, and his genjutsu will negate any summonings Jiraiya uses and will probably be used to end Jiraiya's life.


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## Ersa (Aug 26, 2015)

Wait didn't Itachi defeat full power Orochimaru in base?

Aren't the Sannin are stated by Kishimoto to be combat equals?!


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Bloo said:


> With the mindset being in character and their one encounter where Jiraiya massively underrated Itachi and Itachi didn't do such to Jiraiya, I'd say Itachi has an upper-hand. Jiraiya stupidly looked directly into Itachi's eyes in their encounter and that could have been a game-ender if Itachi's goal was to challenge Jiraiya.
> 
> Regardless, Itachi wins as he has greater speed, skill, and his genjutsu will negate any summonings Jiraiya uses and will probably be used to end Jiraiya's life.



LOL, maybe Jiraiya knew he would shit on Itachi's sharingan genjutsu, exactly like Oro would have with 1 more second.

Depends which Itachi we are talking about. Sick Itachi - clearly looses, Edo Itachi- wins cause of superior speed, maybe.

Itachi cannot genjutsu all the three of them at the same time and still Jiraiya would just make 2 other bunshins and make them stay on the other toads heads and when genjutsu comes in , Jiraiya simply snaps them out. Either way, If FCD Is used, Itachi looses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2015)

^
thats OOC colosseum strategy.

Then Itachi creates 2 karasubunshins and simultaneously uses genjutsu on 3 targets, Jiriaya and his summons or clones and keeps doing it the entire fight. Also summons like gamaken or hiro or bunta are non factors here, Itachi can simply ignore them and go for Jiraiya.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Wait didn't Itachi defeat full power Orochimaru in base?
> 
> Aren't the Sannin are stated by Kishimoto to be combat equals?!



He did defeat Oro, because Oro  underestimated him. It seems that after that little encounter, Oro taught that Itachi is superior to him because of his occular powers, yet in part 1, he made another sharingan user shit in his pants. And i am not comparing Itachi to part1 Kakashi, it is just that Kakashi was a sharingan user too. The only conclusion one can get is that Oro was afraid of Itachi's genjutsu, not of him as a full.

Where are they stated combat equals ? ABC logic again. )
Isn't Itachi the one who stated that Jiraiya is at least on the same level as him ?
Kishi made It clear that Jiraiya would beat Tsunade while in base and that he could fight on par with Oro ( in base too actually ).


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> thats OOC colosseum strategy.
> 
> Then Itachi creates 2 karasubunshins and simultaneously uses genjutsu on 3 targets, Jiriaya and his summons or clones and keeps doing it the entire fight. Also summons like gamaken or hiro or bunta are non factors here, Itachi can simply ignore them and go for Jiraiya.


lol gamayu endan kills him. The toads only have to take their distance with a leap exactly when they are summoned and then Bunta can proceed to fry him


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## Ersa (Aug 26, 2015)

They are stated to be equals in the fanbook written by Kishimoto.

Author's words bro, not mine.

I couldn't care less, I'm a Ebisu fan.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> They are stated to be equals in the fanbook written by Kishimoto.
> 
> Author's words bro, not mine.
> 
> I couldn't care less, I'm a Ebisu fan.



when was that fanbook created ?
And still, as overall they are very close, yes. But then comes SM, which throws Jiraiya higher.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> lol gamayu endan kills him. The toads only have to take their distance with a leap exactly when they are summoned and then Bunta can proceed to fry him



Gamayu endan won't do shit, as Itachi will never be within its effective range.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gamayu endan won't do shit, as Itachi will never be within its effective range.






and Why not ? It's AOE it is like more than a couple of times Bunta's size and the only thing Jiraiya and Bunta have to do is spit some oil and fire. Yup, Itachi Is not fast enough to avoid that, not even close.
Another variant would be FCD, a 1-shot ko.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> and Why not ? It's AOE it is like more than a couple of times Bunta's size and the only thing Jiraiya and Bunta have to do is spit some oil and fire. Yup, Itachi Is not fast enough to avoid that, not even close.
> Another variant would be FCD, a 1-shot ko.



Gamayu endan doesn't effect close proximity around bunta(10-20 meter radius), so Itachi won't be effected. All he needs to do is to stay close. Gamabunta is sluggish as hell and Itachi can easily anticipate and read his moves and casually dance around him. 

FCD is the most overrated jutsu up to date and it only hit targets that either didn't see it coming or too slow to move. It won't work on Itachi, or any shinobi around his level.

Jiraiya isn't landing any moves on a shinobi who has sharingan precog to read his moves and who is massively faster than him.
Itachi anticipated SM Kabuto's jutsu execution and hit him with his own jutsu before Kabuto could even begin to cast his.
Jiraiya is outdone in every single department that has to do with any ninja art.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gamayu endan doesn't effect close proximity around bunta(10-20 meter radius), so Itachi won't be effected. All he needs to do is to stay close. Gamabunta is sluggish as hell and Itachi can easily anticipate and read his moves and casually dance around him.
> 
> FCD is the most overrated jutsu up to date and it only hit targets that either didn't see it coming or too slow to move. It won't work on Itachi, or any shinobi around his level.
> 
> ...



Gamabunta jumps , makes distance and fries him.
FCD is insant summoning right above your head so dunno what you are talking about.
Jiraiya is not outdone in anything other than genjutsu and intelligence, if you take into consideration edo itachi, speed is another advantage


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## ~M~ (Aug 26, 2015)

Jiraiya loses clearly due to speed. No matter if he's blind, he has both chakra sense and precognition with Sharingan. Likely, Jiraiya like Orochimaru can break out of base genjutsu quite easily. But without sage mode he's not going to catch up or overpower Itachi. 

It's a good match but a clear winner.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

I think people are seriously overrating Itachi's speed here. It's not like he's Ei or Gated Gai. Just saying.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Gamabunta jumps , makes distance and fries him.
> FCD is insant summoning right above your head so dunno what you are talking about.
> Jiraiya is not outdone in anything other than genjutsu and intelligence, if you take into consideration edo itachi, speed is another advantage



If bunta keeps jumping away from Itachi, then Itachi shunshins the opposite way, leaving gamayu endan's effective range. So Gamabunta has to come to him to be able to put him in his range again.  Which then Itachi can close in. 

FCD isn't instant, Jiraiya has to get into close proximity and cast the jutsu and the toad appears above the target, who can just move out of the way. Like I said, just because it landed on a couple of snakes, pre occupied Kyuubi who didn't even see minato coming, and a zetsu construct who was already fucked up by FRS, doesn't mean it will land on Itachi. FCD is a non factor here.

Handseal knowledge and proficiency, jutsu execution speed and speed, as living Itachi is statistically a tier above Jiraiya in the databook and has better feats. 
And no, sick Itachi only declined in speed as he exerted himself, so I don't think a fresh living Itachi is any different in terms of speed than Edo Itachi.


LostSelf said:


> I think people are seriously overrating Itachi's speed here. It's not like he's Ei or Gated Gai. Just saying.


And Jiraiya isn't B or KCM Naruto.

I think Itachi's speed is the most underrated thing here and perhaps the biggest game changer.


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## ~M~ (Aug 26, 2015)

Jiraiya is way out of prime, Itachi is ill if we grant that, but not ancient and out of practice. His feats are far superior. Jiraiya entraps all of Pein not outrun them, when it comes to increasing his speed SM puts him an entire head above but he's gimped here simple as that.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Jiraiya is way out of prime, Itachi is ill if we grant that, but not ancient and out of practice. His feats are far superior. He entraps all of Pein not outrun them, when it comes to increasing his speed SM puts him an entire head above but he's gimped here simple as that.



Yes, Itachi's speed is superior because Jiraiya is out of prime, but still judging by feats, the difference is insignificant if this is sick Itachi. Still, If Itachi comes close Hari jizo and ranjishigami will become his greatest nightmare, but JIraiya will surely opt for mid-long range cause of genjutsu. there, he dominates.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2015)

How is the difference insignificant when Itachi has better speed feats and sharingan precog ? 
Because you want it to be ?


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

Not all his feats. Base Itachi's ninjutsu pales in comparison to Jiraiya's. As well as Stamina, durability and who knows if battle experience.

His speed, even if he holds an advantage, won't be enough to pressure Jiraiya much. Not when Kurenai was able to react to his kick coming out of Genjutsu.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 26, 2015)

Sick Itachi without MS isn't going to beat Jiraiya.

He can't even avoid Yomi Numa.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Not all his feats. Base Itachi's ninjutsu pales in comparison to Jiraiya's. As well as Stamina, durability and who knows if battle experience.
> 
> His speed, even if he holds an advantage, won't be enough to pressure Jiraiya much. Not when Kurenai was able to react to his kick coming out of Genjutsu.



Battle experience ? 

Jiraiya had to retreat from 3 paths of pain with absolutely no idea on how to fight him and was guided by 800 year old frogs to victory by using a jutsu that he didn't know it existed.

So again, what are Jiraiya's battle experience feats ?

Yes, his speed actually is enough to pressure someone slower than him, as we've seen with Sasuke and Deidara who were in the same speed tier.

You can't just discard an advantage because it doesn't suit your argument or beliefs.

And Orochimaru couldn't react to Itachi in a similar situation from a greater distance coming out of genjutsu. Has it ever occured to you that Itachi wasn't serious with Kurenai and he was just fucking around ?


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 26, 2015)

Dude... are you actually questioning Jiraiya's *battle* experience?

He, unlike Itachi, fought in a ninja *war*.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 26, 2015)

Scans of his battle experience ?


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## ~M~ (Aug 26, 2015)

Itachi as a youth was a prodigy and slaughtered every other Uchiha who were some of the strongest in Konoha(granting Tobi's "help"), member of ANBU, member of Akatsuki 

No matter if he didn't participate in a war his 1 on 1 combat record stands for itself.


----------



## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If bunta keeps jumping away from Itachi, then Itachi shunshins the opposite way, leaving gamayu endan's effective range. So Gamabunta has to come to him to be able to put him in his range again.  Which then Itachi can close in.
> 
> FCD isn't instant, Jiraiya has to get into close proximity and cast the jutsu and the toad appears above the target, who can just move out of the way. Like I said, just because it landed on a couple of snakes, pre occupied Kyuubi who didn't even see minato coming, and a zetsu construct who was already fucked up by FRS, doesn't mean it will land on Itachi. FCD is a non factor here.
> 
> ...




LOOOL
Since when can Itachi cover such a great distance with a single shunshin? I can almost smell the fanfic by reading what you wrote.
Why didn't Kurama move out of the way? Because the summon appeared right above his head. Jiraiya can make him appear where he wants. the databook says '' RIGHT above the target '', so gg man.
Handseal is non factor, because Itachi's 3T jutsus are way too lame for Jiraiya and the latter uses a single sign or none for most of his jutsus. Knowledge ? Wat? Jiraiya is the daddy of knowledge and still he already knows about Itachi's Genjutsu, some Taijutsu and reactions, while Itachi knows about the stomach ). Jutsu execution my ass. Jiraiya uses only one sign or none for most of the jutsus and he has far better AOE than Itachi. Yomi numa is still GG, so is FCD or gamayu endan. I am not expecting something else from you, just blah,blah, Itachi wins because of my fanfic,blah,blah.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Battle experience ?
> 
> So again, what are Jiraiya's battle experience feats ?
> 
> Jiraiya had to retreat from 3 paths of pain with absolutely no idea on how to fight him and was guided by 800 year old frogs to victory by using a jutsu that he didn't know it existed.



What's your point? Or you're saying that sick base Itachi would do better against those 3 paths of Pain without knowledge? Jiraiya needing help was because he never fought the Rinnegan. What experience would he have there?




> Yes, his speed actually is enough to pressure someone slower than him, as we've seen with Sasuke and Deidara who were in the same speed tier.



In order to do so, you need to be incredibly faster than your opponent. Itachi's gap, especially sick, is not way above Jiraiya to shift the battle here or for Jiraiya to not react to him.

Deidara is an airborne fighter, he's suited to fight in the air. And was facing a fast enemy, plus, Deidara wouldn't been able to use bigger guns on the floor. Fighting with C1 against a speedy enemy is not the best to do.

Deidara reacted to even Sasuke's second ambush.



> You can't just discard an advantage because it doesn't suit your argument or beliefs.
> 
> And Orochimaru couldn't react to Itachi in a similar situation from a greater distance coming out of genjutsu. Has it ever occured to you that Itachi wasn't serious with Kurenai and he was just fucking around ?



Orochimaru was paralyzed and hitting him is not a miracle. Did you forget how Tsunade, badly injured, stood up right in his face and blitzed him? Yeah...

No proof that Itachi was toying with Kurenai.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 26, 2015)

> Scans of his battle experience ?


Oh god, it hurts to read. 

This Itachi wank that never goes away. 

Kishimoto's thought is still in their mouths... they just won't stop sucking.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh god, it hurts to read.
> 
> This Itachi wank that never goes away.
> 
> Itachi's thought is still in their mouths... they just won't stop sucking.




Yeah it really hurts, though I see in him a great novelist, because he has a great imagination,sick, but great 

Ten points for Slytherins.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 26, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Itachi as a youth was a prodigy and slaughtered every other Uchiha who were some of the strongest in Konoha(granting Tobi's "help"), member of ANBU, member of Akatsuki
> 
> No matter if he didn't participate in a war his 1 on 1 combat record stands for itself.


Are you actually suggesting you gain more experience by assassinating someone, then you do by fighting them in war?

Because Itachi was an assassin (Anbu Captain). 

Alive:
>Assassinates a group in their sleep that he can easily infiltrate, whom he has complete knowledge on, and whom don't expect him to attack them (zero guard)
>Uses 3-toma Genjutsu against Orochimaru, zero taijutsu
>Shunshins once, uses one MS technique on Kakashi, zero taijutsu
>Shunshins once (blitzed Kid Sasuke), uses one MS technique to escape Jiraiya, zero taijutsu
>Shunshins twice, uses handful of MS techniques against Sasuke while standing

Dead (does not count):
>Jumps around with Killer Bee & Naruto, opts to use MS when he can't do shit to them 
>Stands on sidelines while Nagato attacks Bee & Naruto, surprise attacks with kunai, opens Susano, surprise attacks Kabuto-Nagato, surprise attacks Kabuto-Nagato again through cloud

Where's the battle experience? Where's the battles?

Lmao, every fight he's been in he's been active for less than 5 minutes. The dude simply spams MS. 

Jiraiya:
>War (years of fighting shinobi for long periods- everyday)
>Hanzo (fights until the brink of exhaustion, which takes awhile for Jiraiya)
>Orochimaru (fights until the brink of exhaustion)
>Pain (Fights Animal, Animal Preta & Human, Fights all 6 for extended period outside until the brink of exhaustion)

Jiraiya is a warrior, I.E. he fought *battles* in a war.


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## Bonly (Aug 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> he didn't go to sage mode against Animal Path, but against his eyes, if you know what i mean.



Who is the owner of said eyes? Animal path. Where are those eyes located? Inside Animal paths eye sockets. So yet again in otherwords he went Sage Mode against Animal path aka the summoner.



> I am already tired of debating with you.



I outlasted you like Itachi outlasted Sasuke 



> Still, would 3-tomoe Itachi do better against animal path ? I do not think so.



I'd think they would do about the same more or less, Itachi can take out summonings eyes and what not with kunai but he'd have problems finding the lizard like Jiraiya did


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## Alex Payne (Aug 26, 2015)

This is getting interesting.

Bit about Jiraiya's experience was rather extreme and I am more inclined to disagree with it but I can see where it is coming from. Jiraiya never actually showed anything in terms of outstanding experience. For all his supposed experience was quick to underestimate Akatsuki Duo and had no idea about Mangekyo Sharingan. Experience was never portrayed by Kishimoto like it should so it doesn't matter much. 

More interesting stuff is Base Jiraiya's speed. Always makes me chuckle. Do people actually have anything from _the manga_ to support the notion that Jiraiya can handle Itachi's speed? Every BD battle with Itachi is like that - oh his opponent is strong so he should be able to _handle_ Itachi's speed, move along. What the shit. Itachi outperforms/matches actual speedsters like Kakashi, Killer B, Hebi Sasuke and SM Kabuto. But people like Jiraiya who have absolutely nothing in speed area can _handle_ his speed. Right. We all saw what dramatic speed boost Naruto got after Sage Mode. And we have SM Jiraiya speed feats. Now - try to remove Naruto's boost from SM Jiraiya's feats and think about the result. Just for a goof.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Who is the owner of said eyes? Animal path. Where are those eyes located? Inside Animal paths eye sockets. So yet again in otherwords he went Sage Mode against Animal path aka the summoner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the first part it is already a milked discussion where it seems we cannot agree, due to you not reading that part of the manga.
The second part it is actually quite funny. Wait, who won in the end ? 
The third part- agree with the lizard part, disagree with the summon eyes. The summons are moving, running actually, kunais will not reach their destination. Actually I do not think he would be able to defeat animal path if the latter is hiding in the lizard. He will outlast Itachi with uncountable summons. Cerberus alone would be like hell for him


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## ~M~ (Aug 26, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you actually suggesting you gain more experience by assassinating someone, then you do by fighting them in war?
> 
> Because Itachi was an assassin (Anbu Captain).
> 
> ...



So a short battle eliminating one opponent is a bad thing? 

He does far more than spam MS. He outspeeds everyone he's faced even ill (even Deidara) and utilized a dozen kage tier jutsu


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 26, 2015)

He's literally never outsped anyone he's ever fought. His Susano blade outsped Hydra Form Orochimaru- that's it.

As far as battle experience is concerned, he hasn't been in a single battle that's lasted more than 10 minutes. His longest battle while dead (Edo), which was alongside EMS Sasuke, concluded very quickly, and in that battle- he was killed by Kabuto three times, could've been 4 if Sasuke wasn't there (Tayuya's flute). 

His other longest battle was alongside Killer Bee and Naruto, two Kage-level shinobi, and they won because he stealth attacked (as an assassin does) Nagato (Kabuto) three times. 

In everyone of his battles there is a significant amount of down time (non-active, non-combat) due to dialogue.

Experience definitely isn't something I'd attribute to Itachi.


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## ~M~ (Aug 26, 2015)

That's a good thing, why try to out endure an opponent when you have sharingan? That's ridiculous


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## Bonly (Aug 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> The third part- agree with the lizard part, disagree with the summon eyes. The summons are moving, running actually, kunais will not reach their destination.



(1)(2)(3)(4)

Itachi can change the direction of the kunai he throws by throwing another kunai into them and Itachi has access to shadow clones and crow clones(which cost less chakra) to help him distract the summonings and what not which can allow him to catch the summonings off guard.



> Actually I do not think he would be able to defeat animal path if the latter is hiding in the lizard. He will outlast Itachi with uncountable summons. Cerberus alone would be like hell for him



Yeah it'd be hard so it depends on can Itachi find Animal path or not


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 26, 2015)

> That's a good thing, why try to out endure an opponent when you have sharingan? That's ridiculous


Indeed, an assassin with hax simply doesn't need battle experience, 

except when he's actually forced to do battle and doesn't have his hax,

In other words, like this very simulation,

Where he's going up against a world renown legendary warrior who's fought ninja who have more battle experience in their sleep (Nagato, Hanzo, Orochimaru) than this guy had in life.

If it were an RPG Jiraiya would be at the level cap (60), and Itachi would be level 10. That's literally the disparity in experience between a pacifist assassin and a legendary warrior.


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## Six (Aug 26, 2015)

What good did all that battle and war experience do for Orochimaru against Itachi? You idiot haters will never be convinced of anything.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> This is getting interesting.
> 
> Bit about Jiraiya's experience was rather extreme and I am more inclined to disagree with it but I can see where it is coming from. Jiraiya never actually showed anything in terms of outstanding experience. For all his supposed experience was quick to underestimate Akatsuki Duo and had no idea about Mangekyo Sharingan. Experience was never portrayed by Kishimoto like it should so it doesn't matter much.
> 
> More interesting stuff is Base Jiraiya's speed. Always makes me chuckle. Do people actually have anything from _the manga_ to support the notion that Jiraiya can handle Itachi's speed? Every BD battle with Itachi is like that - oh his opponent is strong so he should be able to _handle_ Itachi's speed, move along. What the shit. Itachi outperforms/matches actual speedsters like Kakashi, Killer B, Hebi Sasuke and SM Kabuto. But people like Jiraiya who have absolutely nothing in speed area can _handle_ his speed. Right. We all saw what dramatic speed boost Naruto got after Sage Mode. And we have SM Jiraiya speed feats. Now - try to remove Naruto's boost from SM Jiraiya's feats and think about the result. Just for a goof.



Who do you think has better reflexes, Kisame or Jiraiya? Or if you're of the ones that says Shouten Kisame was weaker even physically, Shouten Kisame, then.

Because, Shouten Kisame could perceive Gai's supersonic Kick. If Shouten Kisame could perceive the much, but tiers above faster Gated Gai's speed, i think we can agree that Jiraiya should have no troubles perceiving Itachi and countering.

It might be just me, but Itachi's speed is being grossly overrated. These kinds of speed arguments are valid when it comes to Minato, Ei, Gai. But Itachi? Sure, he's fast. But then again, Kurenai could react to him. To an Itachi that, if i'm not mistaken, ordered Kisame to kill them, so playing around he wasn't.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 26, 2015)

^ Shouten Kisame was exactly like regular Kisame, except his chakra was limited to 30%, thereby limiting his arsenal.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

I go with that, too. But that was just to avoid a debate over something irrelevant and to point out how a shinobi can perceive faster speeds than Itachi's.

His speed shouldn't be so great that this match would be a like Lee vs Gaara.

Itachi's fast, But he's not that fast.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Sure, he's fast. But then again, Kurenai could react to him.



That 5-second battle went like this though:

1. Itachi reversed her own genjutsu.
2. Itachi kicked Kurenai 30 feet away.
3. Itachi flickered and had a kunai to her head.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

That's not the number two. Number two is Kurenai breaking out of her genjutsu, reacting and blocking Itachi's kick, wich was mid-strike already.


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## Kai (Aug 26, 2015)

Susanoo =/= MS 
Tis fair game.

Besides the point, Sharingan genjutsu on Itachi's level is still too much for Jiraiya to handle with his base reserve. Itachi's ninjutsu and handseal speed will force Jiraiya into genjutsu, and from there Itachi can stab his vital areas with fatal precision.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> That's not the number two. Number two is Kurenai breaking out of her genjutsu, reacting and blocking Itachi's kick, wich was mid-strike already.



Regardless, it was a 5 second battle.

Kurenai reacting mid-strike and then being flash-stepped says enough.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Kai said:


> Susanoo =/= MS
> Tis fair game.
> 
> Besides the point, Sharingan genjutsu on Itachi's level is still too much for Jiraiya to handle with his base reserve. Itachi's ninjutsu and handseal speed will force Jiraiya into genjutsu, and from there Itachi can stab his vital areas with fatal precision.



Jiraiya solo's with FCD  or Gamayu Endan. His handseals do not mean shit, Jiraiya reacts to everything Itachi has in 3T with hari jizo.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Regardless, it was a 5 second battle.
> 
> Kurenai reacting mid-strike and then being flash-stepped says enough.



Itachi's speed is above the speed Kurenai carried with the kick. But wasn't that a clone? I have to read that fight again.


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## Trojan (Aug 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi's speed is above the speed Kurenai carried with the kick. But wasn't that a clone? I have to read that fight again.



It was a clone
he was picked off by Kakuzu
he was picked off by Kakuzu



Kai said:


> Susanoo =/= MS
> Tis fair game.
> 
> Besides the point, Sharingan genjutsu on Itachi's level is still too much for Jiraiya to handle with his base reserve. Itachi's ninjutsu and handseal speed will force Jiraiya into genjutsu, and from there Itachi can stab his vital areas with fatal precision.



> that's clearly what the author was showing/portraying in the manga. 

itachi wins in less than a microsecond indeed. Anyone read the manga knows that. 
I agree with Kai!


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## Sadgoob (Aug 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi's speed is above the speed Kurenai carried with the kick. But wasn't that a clone? I have to read that fight again.



Does it make a difference if it was a clone?

Another important distinction is that before the MS reveal, Kakashi said Itachi wasn't even using half his strength. But Kakashi was shocked to learn about the MS upon its reveal. 

He was basing Itachi holding back on his knowledge of ANBU (kid) Itachi, who we know rivaled Shisui, as the Uchiha believed Itachi fully capable of taking him out.. even before knowing Itachi had MS.

Like Shisui, a huge portion of Itachi's hype comes from skill and speed, which like Kurenai said, is superhuman, and not something most ninja can deal with when Itachi's aggressive.

We saw Bee with Samehada getting tons of assistance in defending against Itachi's aggression, and he still ultimately ended up taking some painful hits along with Samehada.

And you have to remember the _tremendous_ difference between Bee w/ Samehada's defense and reflexes relative to base Jiraiya in terms of feats and specialty.​


Hussain said:


> > that's clearly what the author was showing/portraying in the manga.
> 
> itachi wins in less than a microsecond indeed. Anyone read the manga knows that.



About as long as Orochimaru did.​


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## Duhul10 (Aug 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Does it make a difference if it was a clone?
> 
> Another important distinction is that before the MS reveal, Kakashi said Itachi wasn't even using half his strength. But Kakashi was shocked to learn about the MS upon its reveal.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya while in a laughable form could keep up with Orochimaru's speed, who could keep up with kn4 and actually blitz him twice . So a 100% base Jiraiya should keep up with kn4 comfortably. Note that, Jiraiya was hurt by kn4 only because of lack of knowledge, intent and the fact that he needed to get right near him to put that seal, without actually hitting him.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Does it make a difference if it was a clone?
> 
> Another important distinction is that before the MS reveal, Kakashi said Itachi wasn't even using half his strength. But Kakashi was shocked to learn about the MS upon its reveal.
> 
> ...




I'll put this card face down. And i'll end my turn.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 26, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Jiraiya while in a laughable form could keep up with Orochimaru's speed.



Orochimaru's not particularly fast relative to Itachi. Orochimaru also decisively got the better of Jiriaya in their part one mutually handicapped match, but their speeds are equal in the DB.

Jiraiya has equal stats to Deidara, but Deidara has superior feats. Deidara retreated from Hebi Sasuke's speed, and Hebi Sasuke was slower than sick Itachi, likely much slower than healthy Itachi.

And on an even higher tier than Hebi Sasuke is Killer Bee, who also struggled with Itachi's speed, and is at least two tiers above base Jiraiya and Orochimaru in defensive reflex and instincts. 

Basically, the Sannin may have an opportunity like Deidara to think "fuck, I need to fight long range or I'm dead" but they might not. Itachi's much faster and has tricky genjutsu.

The author has also already shown he's perfectly fine with having people at the Sannin's level being shut down by Itachi before they really have a chance to fight back.​


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## Trojan (Aug 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> About as long as Orochimaru did.​




Agreed. 
Especially that also means itachi will last about as long as Izuna/Obito did against Minato/Tobirama
which at the end of the day all that matters if you think about it! 

Finally those debates come to an end! ​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I'll put this card face down. And i'll end my turn.



I saw your rep and appreciate your comment. However, bunshin feinting often incorporates the shunshin jutsu, and in Itachi's case, it's an incredibly fast combination of a clone and a shunshin. 

First, however, let's talk about Itachi's speed without bunshin. He was Shisui's rival, said to go 49-51 with him as a kid, and the Uchiha believed Itachi capable of killing "Shisui the Teleporter."

Additionally, we saw Itachi blitz three elite Uchiha police with 3-tomoe Sharingan. Even if they were only solid Jonin in skill, they still should have amazing speed resistance with the 3-tomoe. 

Considering that Lee with a 4.0 couldn't blitz 2-tomoe Sasuke, but KN0 could do so easily, I'd say KN0 was at a minimum 4.5, and a Chunin level kid with a new, unmastered 3-tomoe wrecked him.

Now, on to the bunshin feints. Specifically, the one against Hebi Sasuke and Bee. _There was no solid sightblocker._ He formed a clone and flickered so quickly that Sasuke missed it entirely.

And against Bee, many people think it was the flame as a sight-blocker, but if you review the panel, it's likely not the case because several conversations take place in between.

This also makes me wonder if the clone feint in part one wasn't pre-calculated, but another instance of showing off that flash-step, whereas Kakashi dove under water after his water shield.
​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Especially that also means itachi will last about as long as Izuna/Obito did against Minato/Tobirama



Obito fled on sight of Itachi though. 

[youtube]IEKiAonlYXc[/youtube]


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## Trojan (Aug 26, 2015)

I am glad you agree that in the manga itachi will not last more than 1 minute/1 second against the Hokages. 

Since the movie shows stuff reversed. I am glad you agree that the real itachi would be the opposite and flee!


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 27, 2015)

> First, however, let's talk about Itachi's speed without bunshin. He was Shisui's rival, said to go 49-51 with him as a kid, and the Uchiha believed Itachi capable of killing "Shisui the Teleporter."


Shisui has no feats, excluded. 



> Additionally, we saw Itachi blitz three elite Uchiha police with 3-tomoe Sharingan. Even if they were only solid Jonin in skill, they still should have amazing speed resistance with the 3-tomoe.


Those ninja have no feats, excluded. 



> Considering that Lee with a 4.0 couldn't blitz 2-tomoe Sasuke, but KN0 could do so easily, I'd say KN0 was at a minimum 4.5, and a Chunin level kid with a new, unmastered 3-tomoe wrecked him.


Jiraiya has a 4.5 databook speed rating.

Don't bother bringing up databook stats, in 7 of the 8 categories Jiraiya is 4.5 (9 out of 10) or higher (5 in Ninjutsu, Stamina), only Genjutsu is a 3. I'm pretty certain no other ninja in the manga has that consistent top-tier scoring in 7 categories. 

These databook stats were released a year+ before Sage Mode was introduced.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> These databook stats were released a year+ before Sage Mode Jiraiya was introduced.


Except DB3 was release after Jiraiya vs Pain and Itachi vs Sasuke. How about this crazy idea that those stats are... in Sage Mode?


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 27, 2015)

Got my gudebooks mixed up. 

If we're considering SM Jiraiya, we're also considering Ma & Pa, because he can't enter it without them, which would mean his Genjutsu would not be a 3. 

While in SM he can't be put in a singular illusion, and they have an S-rank multi-target Genjutsu.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Except DB3 was release after Jiraiya vs Pain and Itachi vs Sasuke. How about this crazy idea that those stats are... in Sage Mode?



lel, 4.5 in strength in sage mode, genjutsu 3 in sage mode  speed 4.5 in sage mode, taijutsu 4.5 in sm


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## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2015)

Jiraiya's "individual" stats including Ma/Pa? Cool.
And Jiraiya *can* enter SM without them. He would simply have a time limit. Just like Naruto.



Duhul10 said:


> lel, 4.5 in strength in sage mode, genjutsu 3 in sage mode  speed 4.5 in sage mode, taijutsu 4.5 in sm


And? Everything except strength is within his feats. And his best strength feat wasn't properly shown.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 27, 2015)

Uh, yeah?

Considering his Ninjutsu is enhanced by summons (Toad Oil Bullet, Food Cart Destroyer, Summoning a Frog in general), and his strength largely stems from them.

Nothing in the manga ever suggested he could enter SM or maintain it without them. Even with them, he still was partially transforming into a toad (frog feet, deformed face). Pa literally said there's no way to use SM without someone gathering for them, and this is after he trained Jiraiya in it [1] [2].

Scoring Naruto without Kurama would be pretty interesting, I guess. Though it's not possible, he's never been without him. I know for a fact his speed, stamina and Ninjutsu would plummet, and that's just databook 3 scoring (he used KN0 for Odama Rasengan, Wing Rasengan, speed enhancement, extra reserves).

As far as Orochimaru is concerned, half of his arsenal would be out, Edo Tensei & anything Snake related (Shadow Snakes, Sea of Snakes, Manda, Boss Snakes) would be excluded from scoring, his Ninjutsu would plummet.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Nothing in the manga ever suggested he could enter SM or maintain it without them.




Fusion is for using SM in combat without risks and without time limit.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Jiraiya's "individual" stats including Ma/Pa? Cool.
> And Jiraiya *can* enter SM without them. He would simply have a time limit. Just like Naruto.
> 
> 
> And? Everything except strength is within his feats. And his best strength feat wasn't properly shown.



OMG. Genjutsu 3 ? When SM boosts his genjutsu capabilities? Speed 4.5 ? when he was keeping up with a 4.5 ( + imo )without problems of reacting while in base and drugged ? Taijutsu 4.5 in sm? when he has frog katas and can throw you like a table tennis ball if he hits you ?


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> OMG. Genjutsu 3 ? When SM boosts his genjutsu capabilities?


 Genjutsu stat reflects skill and knowledge. Jiraiya being unable to perform Sage Genjutsu because his base genjutsu suck explains everything. You need to train/learn genjutsu under SM like Naruto did with FRS/Rasengan variants. Jiraiya isn't genjutsu user as per his own statement. His stat is pure knowledge about them as far as we know. 



Duhul10 said:


> Speed 4.5 ? when he was keeping up with a 4.5 ( + imo )without problems of reacting while in base and drugged ?


 Orochimaru's 4.5 Speed rating was granted after he switched bodies and improved his condition. So yeah - can you prove that P1 Armless Oro had the exact same speed?



Duhul10 said:


> Taijutsu 4.5 in sm? when he has frog katas and can throw you like a table tennis ball if he hits you ?


 Frog Katas. Something Jiraiya didn't show. And you are talking about strength here. Jiraiya's on panel strength+taijutsu feats are within 4.5 stats. Simply blinding Human Path with a kick. People with 5.0 should be capable of crushing his head into a bloody pulp.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh god, it hurts to read.
> 
> This Itachi wank that never goes away.
> 
> Kishimoto's thought is still in their mouths... they just won't stop sucking.



I would insult you, but then I am worried that you are actually mentally impaired and will be offended by that. So I'll just keep it to myself this time.



LostSelf said:


> What's your point? Or you're saying that sick base Itachi would do better against those 3 paths of Pain without knowledge?



Yes he would, without a shadow of doubt, but thats not my point.



> Jiraiya needing help was because he never fought the Rinnegan. What experience would he have there?



I'm just saying his unsubstantiated battle experience never gave him an advantage in any situation he was in. Never came into frution, so I am just wondering how do you think it will factor in against Itachi. Just to remind you, you have nothing substantial to back this up. 

You can also refer to Kakuzu & Hidan vs Shikamaru or Kakashi and see how battle experience stacks up against intelligence. 



> In order to do so, you need to be incredibly faster than your opponent. Itachi's gap, especially sick, is not way above Jiraiya to shift the battle here or for Jiraiya to not react to him.
> Deidara is an airborne fighter, he's suited to fight in the air. And was facing a fast enemy, plus, Deidara wouldn't been able to use bigger guns on the floor. Fighting with C1 against a speedy enemy is not the best to do.



Again, you are trying to justify it with your own logic, discarding evidence.

Deidara and Sasuke have the same taijutsu and speed score, and Deidara was overwhelmed by Sasuke's speed.
What do you think would happen if Deidara stayed on the ground and Sasuke kept pressuring him ? 

Itachi is faster than Jiraiya, so the gap between him and Jiraiya should be bigger than the gap between Sasuke and Deidara.



> Deidara reacted to even Sasuke's second ambush.


Barely, and he admitted that.



> Orochimaru was paralyzed and hitting him is not a miracle. Did you forget how Tsunade, badly injured, stood up right in his face and blitzed him? Yeah...



Fair enough.



> No proof that Itachi was toying with Kurenai.


Itachi wasn't serious when he was facing them, he could have attacked Kurenai before she broke the genjutsu but he didn't.
I have every reason to believe that he was playing with her. He even expressed that he didn't want to kill them and stopped Kisame twice before they fully engaged.



Duhul10 said:


> LOOOL
> Since when can Itachi cover such a great distance with a single shunshin? I can almost smell the fanfic by reading what you wrote.


Any shinobi around his speed tier should comfortably do so.



> Why didn't Kurama move out of the way? Because the summon appeared right above his head.


Because he was preoccupied and didn't see Minato coming.



> Jiraiya can make him appear where he wants. the databook says '' RIGHT above the target '', so gg man.


Yes and Itachi can move out of the way. So far it was only used on huge and immobile targets(Kyuubi charging Bijuudama unaware of Minato's presence, giant snakes, zetsu construct stunned by FRS).



> Handseal is non factor, because Itachi's 3T jutsus are way too lame for Jiraiya and the latter uses a single sign or none for most of his jutsus.


Handseals are a factor because Itachi can always interrupt Jiraiya's seal sequence with his, cock block him in every attempt because he is faster.



> Knowledge ? Wat? Jiraiya is the daddy of knowledge and still he already knows about Itachi's Genjutsu, some Taijutsu and reactions, while Itachi knows about the stomach ).


Jiraiya has knowledge on generic things, not exclusive ones like Itachi does.



> Jutsu execution my ass. Jiraiya uses only one sign or none for most of the jutsus and he has far better AOE than Itachi. Yomi numa is still GG, so is FCD or gamayu endan. I am not expecting something else from you, just blah,blah, Itachi wins because of my fanfic,blah,blah.


Let me repeat myself.

Itachi can execute a jutsu faster than Sage Kabuto.
Jiraiya gets shit on. 
I don't think Jiraiya can do anything other than defend himself against Itachi's speed and skill.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Genjutsu stat reflects skill and knowledge. Jiraiya being unable to perform Sage Genjutsu because his base genjutsu suck explains everything. You need to train/learn genjutsu under SM like Naruto did with FRS/Rasengan variants. Jiraiya isn't genjutsu user as per his own statement. His stat is pure knowledge about them as far as we know.
> 
> Orochimaru's 4.5 Speed rating was granted after he switched bodies and improved his condition. So yeah - can you prove that P1 Armless Oro had the exact same speed?
> 
> Frog Katas. Something Jiraiya didn't show. And you are talking about strength here.



cool, I'll give you the genjutsu part, still he has the toads to give him perfect defense and offense with it.
Actually his last fight before dying, was with KN4,where he was blitzing him for like 2 times and reacted to almost everything. Still he was saying that his body is no good. While armless, if i can remember correctly, Oro's body was in good shape and it were only his arms, the reason he needed another body at that moment.
Frog katas is a style, according to kishimoto, used by Jiraiya too. When should he show them ?
He never missed his target.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Grimmjow, you fanboyism is overwhelming me  
So, you say that Itachi can do a super shunshin  even though he never did that ( alive or dead ).  I already told you, I appreciate your imagination, you would make of a good novelist. Great fanfic 10/10

Itachi won't see Hiro coming either 

The rest is so, so funny ))


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## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> cool, I'll give you the genjutsu part, still he has the toads to give him perfect defense and offense with it.
> Actually his last fight before dying, was with KN4,where he was blitzing him for like 2 times and reacted to almost everything. Still he was saying that his body is no good. While armless, if i can remember correctly, Oro's body was in good shape and it were only his arms, the reason he needed another body at that moment.
> Frog katas is a style, according to kishimoto, used by Jiraiya too. When should he show them ?
> He never missed his target.


Difference in Orochimaru's condition is vague but different bodies should have different physical abilities. Part 1 body might be slower than P2 body/Genryumaru while having higher strength/stamina, for example. DB3 gave Oro 4.5 based on his performance/condition in Part 2. So we can't properly use Sannin Showdown to cross-compare stats imo.

As for Frog Katas. DB3 was out before they were introduced. There was no Frog Katas in manga yet. So again - what Jiraiya showed against Pain is within 4.5 rating. It is plausible that Kishimoto came up with them only when he was creating Sage Naruto moveset. And tried to retcon it in DB4. And that DB didn't give us stats.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm here to entertain bruv, I am glad you liked it.

But I have to hand it to you, oneshotting Itachi with FCD is almost as funny as the Yomi Numa GG arguments  back in the day.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Difference in Orochimaru's condition is vague but different bodies should have different physical abilities. Part 1 body might be slower than P2 body/Genryumaru while having higher strength/stamina, for example. DB3 gave Oro 4.5 based on his performance/condition in Part 2. So we can't properly use Sannin Showdown to cross-compare stats imo.
> 
> As for Frog Katas. DB3 was out before they were introduced. There was no Frog Katas in manga yet. So again - what Jiraiya showed against Pain is within 4.5 rating. It is plausible that Kishimoto came up with them only when he was creating Sage Naruto moveset. And tried to retcon it in DB4. And that DB didn't give us stats.



Ok so now Kisame from db3 is on par with Sm Jiraiya in Taijutsu and almost on par in speed. Man, It hurts. 
Still, how did Fukasaku know human path is at 12 o'clock ? Do they have 360 degrees vision, or sm sensing ?
If he'd shown frog katas. What would be the element of surprise for Naruto's apparition ? HE wouldn't Have Presented anything new and he would have been lame. The frogs did not showdust cloud or kawazu naki either


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## Alex Payne (Aug 27, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Who do you think has better reflexes, Kisame or Jiraiya? Or if you're of the ones that says Shouten Kisame was weaker even physically, Shouten Kisame, then.
> 
> Because, Shouten Kisame could perceive Gai's supersonic Kick. If Shouten Kisame could perceive the much, but tiers above faster Gated Gai's speed, i think we can agree that Jiraiya should have no troubles perceiving Itachi and countering.
> 
> It might be just me, but Itachi's speed is being grossly overrated. These kinds of speed arguments are valid when it comes to Minato, Ei, Gai. But Itachi? Sure, he's fast. But then again, Kurenai could react to him. To an Itachi that, if i'm not mistaken, ordered Kisame to kill them, so playing around he wasn't.


Kisame has actual solid speed/reaction feats from his fight with B. Plus superior CQC competency. 

As for Kurenai. Can you prove that she is slower than Base Jiraiya? Without stats. Can you prove that Itachi was serious? Even though he held back against Kakashi right afterwards. Itachi bunshin feinted SM Kabuto who shits on Base Jiraiya in everything in terms speed and perception. He also can weave seals too fast for 3-tomoe users Kakashi and Sasuke to perceive. Who are again above Jiraiya in speed/reflexes/perception area. Those two were barely able to handle Itachi's seal usage. Even though Itachi purposefully held back in those fights. Itachi casually makes legit speedsters jump out of their pants just to barely evade his offense. Base J-Man isn't a speedster. Nor does he have enhanced perception/reaction or sealless defenses.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kisame has actual solid speed/reaction feats from his fight with B. Plus superior CQC competency.
> 
> As for Kurenai. Can you prove that she is slower than Base Jiraiya? Without stats. Can you prove that Itachi was serious? Even though he held back against Kakashi right afterwards. Itachi bunshin feinted SM Kabuto who shits on Base Jiraiya in everything in terms speed and perception. He also can weave seals too fast for 3-tomoe users Kakashi and Sasuke to perceive. Who are again above Jiraiya in speed/reflexes/perception area. Those two were barely able to handle Itachi's seal usage. Even though Itachi purposefully held back in those fights. Itachi casually makes legit speedsters jump out of their pants just to barely evade his offense. Base J-Man isn't a speedster. Nor does he have enhanced perception/reaction or sealless defenses.



man. I am talking about db 3
Kakashi in db2, has 4.5 in taijutsu and 4.5 in speed and you are telling me he is on par with Sm Jiraiya ? who was too much for pain arc Kakashi
Stats prove Jiraiya is faster and the fact that in his encounter with pain and Konan, he got out untouched.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2015)

TBH, I don't think SM Jiraiya would hit tier 5 in speed and taijutsu with SM buff, unless we grant Naruto's feats to him(ghost punches, SM sensing). 
You may argue that Kishimoto retconned it with 4th databook, listing Jiraiya as a frog Kata user, but I still think feats trump retconned Databook entries, so at least in BD we should restrict Jiriaya to what we've seen from him.

Without SM sensing and ghost punches, I don't see a significant increase in his taijutsu and speed stat at all.


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## Trojan (Aug 27, 2015)

How is it a retecon? Was it stated somewhere that he does not have it, and the DB4 said otherwise? 



> Without SM sensing and ghost punches, I don't see a significant increase in his taijutsu and speed stat at all.



You think sending a Boss summon and the Human Path flying is not good enough?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How it's a retecoon? Was it stated somewhere that he does not have it, and the DB4 said otherwise?


He hasn't shown them, so he doesn't have them. We don't need a statement when it is blatantly shown, no ? 



> You think sending a Boss summon and the Human Path flying is not good enough?



What does it have anything to do with taijutsu or speed ?


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## Trojan (Aug 27, 2015)

> Hasn't show, so it does not exist, what? 
I can't see the air either, so it does not exist? 

He is simply not a main character who has tons of fights/panel time to show everything he has. That does not
mean it does not exist, and I know that you know that! 

- It has to do with his Taijutsu's power obviously, and he was fast enough to send that body flying before
he can react or do anything...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> > Hasn't show, so it does not exist, what?
> I can't see the air either, so it does not exist?


You can feel it or inhale it, or smell it, no  ?




> He is simply not a main character who has tons of fights/panel time to show everything he has. That does not
> mean it does not exist, and I know that you know that!


Thats a shit excuse.
We've seen him use SM and go all out. He didn't use sensing(pa had to warn him about attacks coming from his blindspots, which means he can't sense) or ghost punches.

So yes, in the manga he didn't have those.



> - It has to do with his Taijutsu's power obviously, and he was fast enough to send that body flying before
> he can react or do anything...


Then the same body reacted to him just fine. 
It has nothing to do with his speed or taijutsu skill. 
It is just strength.


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## Ersa (Aug 27, 2015)

Jiraiya is but a mongrel before the King.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Jiraiya is but a mongrel before the King.


And the king is like a child in front of a sage


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Hussain, let them be. From their POV SM Jiraiya is on the same speed tier as Early shippuden Kakashi and Base Hebi sauce. That even if he was constantly blitzing the paths of pein. I tried to end the debate with grimmjow when he said that Itachi easily avoids gamayu endan with a super shunshin, thing Itachi could never even dream about.
Or that he casually avoids a space-time ninjutsu from right above his head. Not only that but he gives edo itachi feats to sick Itachi. He keeps on denying that Jiraiya has frog katas even though Kishi told us he does.


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## Hachibi (Aug 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Hussain, let them be. From their POV SM Jiraiya is on the same speed tier as Early shippuden Kakashi and Base Hebi sauce. That even if he was constantly blitzing the paths of pein. I tried to end the debate with grimmjow when he said that Itachi easily avoids gamayu endan with a super shunshin, thing Itachi could never even dream about.
> Or that he casually avoids a space-time ninjutsu from right above his head. Not only that but he gives edo itachi feats to sick Itachi. He keeps on denying that Jiraiya has frog katas even though Kishi told us he does.



>Jiraiya
>Blitzing Pain


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Jiraiya
> >Blitzing Pain




yep, he did. A couple of times.

Reread, or actually read, the battle


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## LostSelf (Aug 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I saw your rep and appreciate your comment. However, bunshin feinting often incorporates the shunshin jutsu, and in Itachi's case, it's an incredibly fast combination of a clone and a shunshin.​




Yes, but things like that, happening on weaker opponents doesn't mean it will happen with everybody. For example, base Gai was able to blitz a sound Jounin. But that doesn't mean he would do the same to Jiraiya, as Jiraiya should be able to react to him.

His gated example still holds. Kisame was able to perceive Gai's flaming kick, wich should be faster than anything Itachi holds. Sure, it happened like Lee said, perceiving and reacting are different things, however, i do think that the speed gap between Gai in gates's speed and Itachi's is bigger than the speed gap between Kisame and Jiraiya.



> First, however, let's talk about Itachi's speed without bunshin. He was Shisui's rival, said to go 49-51 with him as a kid, and the Uchiha believed Itachi capable of killing "Shisui the Teleporter."



Shisui couldn't do much to Danzo without sharingan. Not saying he's bad, though. But we don't know how fast he could really be.



> Additionally, we saw Itachi blitz three elite Uchiha police with 3-tomoe Sharingan. Even if they were only solid Jonin in skill, they still should have amazing speed resistance with the 3-tomoe.



We don't know if he blitzed them. He might've only beaten them in taijutsu, something he should've been more than capable of.  



> Considering that Lee with a 4.0 couldn't blitz 2-tomoe Sasuke, but KN0 could do so easily, I'd say KN0 was at a minimum 4.5, and a Chunin level kid with a new, unmastered 3-tomoe wrecked him.
> 
> Now, on to the bunshin feints. Specifically, the one against Hebi Sasuke and Bee. _There was no solid sightblocker._ He formed a clone and flickered so quickly that Sasuke missed it entirely.



Wasn't that in genjutsu? I hold clone feinting as something different. Kakashi also is capable of such, as he used one before Kakuzu's fuuton blasted him away by surprise. And Animal Path even feinted Jiraiya with a kawarimi.



> And against Bee, many people think it was the flame as a sight-blocker, but if you review the panel, it's likely not the case because several conversations take place in between.
> 
> This also makes me wonder if the clone feint in part one wasn't pre-calculated, but another instance of showing off that flash-step, whereas Kakashi dove under water after his water shield.



I do think this was pre-calculated. As Itachi has shown to plan things ahead (Sasuke's fight, for example). And fighting with trickery has been Itachi's main fighting style. WIth Bee, he could've had the clone prepared before hand, even though he wasn't controlled. I don't remember much of the panel, but i always saw it as if Itachi tricked Bee making him lose attention on him blocking his sight.​


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Fusion is for using SM in combat without risks and without time limit.


This only proves he can generate (gather) it, it doesn't prove he can *enter* Sage Mode alone. 

Gathering Natural Energy =/= Entering Sage Mode 

Fusion is used to achieve SM, because you'd lose the energy nearly instantly the moment you stopped gathering it- after standing there completely vulnerable for seconds-to-minutes (likely minutes in Jiraiya's case) to gather it. Once you start moving, the natural energy is dispersed from your body- that's why they stand still to gather it [1]. You need someone to continue gathering it after you've amassed enough to enter the form. 

This is why Kabuto, a shinobi with better chakra control, required Jugo's DNA to utilize Sage Mode- even though he himself knew how to gather Natural Energy. 

Only Asura's reincarnations, the dude who regularly utilized Hagoromo's Senjutsu, have shown the ability to stockpile enough energy to maintain the form for minutes while moving.

And don't bring Pa's entering Sage Mode into it, he's an elder sage whom Jiraiya directly stated was leagues ahead of him in the Senjutsu arts. And even he only maintained the form for a couple seconds- after who knows how long of meditating.


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## Hachibi (Aug 27, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> yep, he did. A couple of times.
> 
> Reread, or actually read, the battle



The only time he did something close to that was caughting Human Path off guard.

every time after that he got blocked.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 27, 2015)

He kicked animal path who was attempting to summon [1] [1], he kicked Human Path who shunshined right toward him [2] [2] and after an extensive battle [1], outnumbered 6 to 1 [1], with one arm [1], (severe wound, bleeding out entire time sapping strength) (one arm = can't make certain seals = couldn't use all of his Senjutsu) he pulled Animal Path into gourd prison and killed him, [3] [3] [3]


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## Garcher (Aug 27, 2015)

Unlike in the manga, Itachi will be actually be Jiraiya's enemy and will not escape (even if Itachi would hold back, there is still a chance he kills Jiraiya accidently so he had to run away)

so this is basically  Oro vs Itachi

and we all know 14 year old Itachi one panelled him


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## Hachibi (Aug 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He kicked animal path who was attempting to summon [1] [1]



While Frog Song was taking effect.



> and after an extensive battle [1], outnumbered 6 to 1 [1], with one arm [1], (severe wound, bleeding out entire time sapping strength) (one arm = can't make certain seals = couldn't use all of his Senjutsu) he pulled Animal Path into gourd prison and killed him, [3] [3] [3]



Surprise attack tho.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> While Frog Song was taking effect.
> 
> 
> 
> Surprise attack tho.



lol proof it had anything to do with their reactions?

They had no problem in reacting to anything other Jiraiya threw at them, bar the kick and Yomi numa .


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## The Undying (Aug 27, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Except DB3 was release after Jiraiya vs Pain and Itachi vs Sasuke. How about this crazy idea that those stats are... in Sage Mode?




DB1 already established that the stats only account for a character's "normal state" in its own words. Its examples for _non_-normal states included stuff like the Akimichi's Baika no Jutsu and the Cursed Seal forms, so Sage Mode is most likely not included either.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He kicked animal path who was attempting to summon [1] [1], he kicked Human Path who shunshined right toward him [2] [2] and after an extensive battle [1], outnumbered 6 to 1 [1], with one arm [1], (severe wound, bleeding out entire time sapping strength) (one arm = can't make certain seals = couldn't use all of his Senjutsu) he pulled Animal Path into gourd prison and killed him, [3] [3] [3]



yeah, you pointed out well. Did human path use shunshin when he charged at Jiraiya ?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 27, 2015)

@DaVizWiz: The benefits of the fusion method are solely to extend the senjutsu period indefinitely, entering senjutsu is something that user does himself. Unlike Naruto, both Jiraiya and Minato probably had to take their time entering the mode though.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> This only proves he can generate (gather) it, it doesn't prove he can *enter* Sage Mode alone.
> 
> Gathering Natural Energy =/= Entering Sage Mode



"Generate chakra for hermit arts" = create sage chakra. Sage chakra turns you into a sage. 
And...
He is in SM in that picture .

Try to reach more kid.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 27, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes, but things like that, happening on weaker opponents doesn't mean it will happen with everybody. For example, base Gai was able to blitz a sound Jounin. But that doesn't mean he would do the same to Jiraiya, as Jiraiya should be able to react to him.



I consider nameless Jonin to be at the "main character Chunin" level. They're way weaker. The ninja Itachi did so against weren't nameless though, and were among the fastest sub-god tiers.​


LostSelf said:


> His gated example still holds. Kisame was able to perceive Gai's flaming kick, wich should be faster than anything Itachi holds.



Here's my argument for this. Kisame _didn't_. He saw Gai stop on point B before striking. I don't believe Kisame can trace strikes so fast that the speed of the friction causes the air to burst into flames.​


LostSelf said:


> Shisui couldn't do much to Danzo without sharingan. Not saying he's bad, though. But we don't know how fast he could really be.



We don't know the circumstances in Danzo/ROOT stealing an eye, but we know Shisui was renowned as one of the fastest ninja in the world and that Itachi without the MS rivaled him.​


LostSelf said:


> We don't know if he blitzed them. He might've only beaten them in taijutsu, something he should've been more than capable of.



From the way it was drawn in between panels, it's heavily implied that they were blitzed. The 3-tomoe Sharingan prediction also checks taijutsu. Speed is needed.​


LostSelf said:


> Wasn't that in genjutsu? I hold clone feinting as something different. Kakashi also is capable of such, as he used one before Kakuzu's fuuton blasted him away by surprise. And Animal Path even feinted Jiraiya with a kawarimi.



Animal Path using Kawarimi is all the more evidence that Itachi, a vastly more hyped clone feinter, would smoke base Jiraiya. Like Alex pointed out, Itachi's got the drop on _much_ faster people.

But I'm sure you agree Itachi can clone feint Jiraiya. So why can't he throw kunai through Jiraiya's blindspots if he managed to trump even the vastly hyped shared vision perception that way?​


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## Yoko (Aug 27, 2015)

Going with Itachi here.  He holds the advantage in speed and reflexes, and while they share a Taijutsu tier I'd place Itachi on the higher end of the 4.5 given his feats against Sasuke (and later on, Killer Bee / KCM Naruto).  Itachi has the obvious edge in Genjutsu as well, and with Jiraiya having to actively avoid eye contact (while lacking experience to do so, like Guy does), he's susceptible to Katon imbued projectiles or finger Genjutsu.

Only true advantage Jiraiya has here is fire power, mainly due to Yomi Numa (as his base Katons aren't impressive without Gamabunta's help), but I'd wager Itachi can identify the hand seal as Jiraiya is forming it and jump before it is spawned beneath him.  Jiraiya's toads are vulnerable to Sharingan Genjutsu (and can be turned against him), as Sasuke demonstrated with Manda, lessening the threat that they'd normally be.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 27, 2015)

If Itachi could put Jiraiya in a Genjutsu soon enough he could score a critical hit in that moment and win, but if not Jiraiya could overwhelm with his larger attacks and come out on top.

Here, I think Itachi would be facing those large Jutsu faster than Jiraiya would end up having to deal with an illusion since they start twenty meters out and at this point Jiraiya probably knows enough about Itachi to realize it's in his best interest to _stay at a distance_. I'd be _even more_ sure of that if Itachi wasn't restricted to base, but he's still a once-Anbu-captain-by-13 make-multiple-Jōnin-your-playthings Sharingan-wielder even then, which ought to be enough for someone who doesn't specialize in close-range combat in the first place to try avoiding it and maintaining what space is between them.

Jiraiya's steel-like Hari Jizō is easily a potent enough defense to protect him from any of Itachi's base attacks and can be shifted right into the long-range offensive/supplementary Ranjishigami if necessary. He can also afford to use Kage Bunshin more freely and even throw up a movement-sensing barrier several times the size of a boss-sized toad, so he's well equipped to deal with any attempts by Itachi at a blitz or ninja tool shenanigans and keep away.

On the other hand, Itachi in base is _not_ similarly well equipped to deal with the various huge Jutsu Jiraiya has access to such as Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi, Katon: Gamayu Endan, and a larger scale Doton: Yomi Numa. Itachi could not reliably clear the breadth of such techniques before they hit (maybe Yomi Numa using the trees before they sink, but that'd still grant Jiraiya more time to set up something else), nor could he simply block them with anything in his base arsenal like a Suijinheki.

So it would appear Jiraiya _should_ take this more often than not.



Alex Payne said:


> Not as good means it wouldn't look/work as it did in the hotel. So Jiraiya can't replicate the move in this location.



I don't see why not.

The only difference between using it inside and outside noted in the entry you quoted is how hard it is to notice, and Jiraiya didn't exactly set it up as a trap for Itachi and Kisame to walk into. Itachi was holding Sasuke up against the wall before it started to pull him in, and then Jiraiya announced the technique. 

That's not an attempt to catch the enemy without them realizing it (like, say, moving into a cave or another room so that the enemy chases you right into it), that's knowingly making it obvious.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If Itachi could put Jiraiya in a Genjutsu soon enough he could score a critical hit in that moment and win, but if not Jiraiya could overwhelm with his larger attacks and come out on top.
> 
> Here, I think Itachi would be facing those large Jutsu faster than Jiraiya would end up having to deal with an illusion since they start twenty meters out and at this point Jiraiya probably knows enough about Itachi to realize it's in his best interest to _stay at a distance_.



Which one of Jiraiya's fights are using to assume that he goes all out in long range (boss summons and giant Yomi Numa) before his enemy has a chance to get close?

Because as I recall it, he didn't seem concerned in taking it slow and close against Itachi, Kisame, Orochimaru, Konan, and Animal Path, most frequently beginning with hair attacks.​


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## Alucardemi (Aug 27, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Jiraiya is but a mongrel before the King.



If Jiraiya is a mongrel before the Solo King(and he really is), then what does that make Gaara


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## thechickensage (Aug 27, 2015)

the bag they put the poop in


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## Zef (Aug 27, 2015)

Why exactly is this eight pages? 

Without Mangekyō & Izanagi/Izanami; there's nothing in Itachi's arsenal to harm Jiraiya except genjutsu. 
Jiraiya should win more times then not *if* he can effectively counter ocular illusions.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't believe Kisame can trace strikes so fast that the speed of the friction causes the air to burst into flames.​



He commented on Gai's strike while looking right at it before it hit him.



> And which one of Jiraiya's fights are using to assume that he goes all out in long range (boss summons and giant Yomi Numa) before his enemy has a chance to get close?​



He had Gama lash out at Ebisu before he got up close, cast Gamaguchi Shibari against Kisame and Itachi, tried summoning against Orochimaru and Kabuto, spat a fireball at Konan to get her away, and used his hair to attack against Animal Pain from afar.

His preferred game is ranged Jutsu. 

Hari Jizō is blatantly a _"get away from me"/"don't get any closer"_ type of defensive technique that could _deter_ even getting close as opposed to merely blocking.

He may be reasonably good up close, but not to the extent that being faced with an elite possessing the Sharingan's insight he's going to be comfortable just allowing it while in his base mode; he's only going to be _more_ inclined to _stay away if he can_.


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## Tarot (Aug 27, 2015)

Not sure what people are arguing about with DB stats. They cover the base stats uneffected by nerfs or buffs. That's why Kimimaro has a 4.5 in stamina despite the fact that he was dying and bedridden. And yes Itachi only has a 2.5 in stamina, so it sucks even without the sickness.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

Death Arcana said:


> And yes Itachi only has a 2.5 in stamina, so it sucks even without the sickness.



Kid Itachi was using Mangekyou techniques after slaughtering an entire clan. At an age when Sasuke was limited to only two Chidori per day before he'd die from chakra exhaustion.

Kakashi was also shocked when Sasuke at age 12 used the fireball jutsu because average kids don't have enough chakra it. Yet we know Itachi was doing it before he was 8 years old.

Lastly, in terms of part one scaling, when Kakashi could only use Raikiri 4 times in a day, Itachi used a total of 96 hours of Tsukuyomi, an especially powerful Amaterasu, Kage Bunshin, genjutsu, and Kisame knew he could keep going. 

So it's abundantly obvious he doesn't have inherently weak stamina and that sickness is the reason for it becoming below average.​


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## Ersa (Aug 28, 2015)

Chidori is more taxing then Mangekyo Sharingan techniques don't you know?

Biased fanboy newb


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## FlamingRain (Aug 28, 2015)

A 2.5 is still average on a 1 to 5 scale. It doesn't "suck".


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> A 2.5 is still average on a 1 to 5 scale. It doesn't "suck".



Let's be real. 2.5 sucks for any Jonin+ ninja. Nor is stamina a purely genetic stat either. It's increased with Gai-like training, as we've seen with countless characters as they grow. 

Itachi has less stamina than kid Sasuke (3.0) and his two Chidori limit? Despite kid Itachi casually using an Tsukuyomi on Sasuke after using Amaterasu while killing Uchiha (according to Obito.)

Further evidence of kid Itachi using Amaterasu is in Danzo recalling Itachi's Amaterasu despite not seeing Itachi since he left the village. So yeah, Itachi had far above average stamina for a kid.

Keeping in mind that Kakashi said to Sasuke in the very beginning of the manga that even the regular fireball ninjutsu was more than the average 12-year-old had stamina to perform.​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

My main point being that stamina is developed like any other stat, with practice, and Gai is an excellent example of someone who maxed stamina out through pure effort and willpower. It's undeniable that Itachi puts in a great deal of effort to take his genjutsu, ninjutsu, and taijutsu skills to Kage class levels. 

As a kid, we saw him obsessively practice with weapons and he quickly became arguably the best projectile weapon user in the entire Narutoverse. The same autistic amounts of effort were likely used for his off the charts skills like hand seals, genjutsu, speed, etc. The only ninja with as much 5/5 mastery is Hiruzen.

And like I said above, we saw him going _way_ beyond the expected stamina for a kid. He was using Kage+ level taxing ninjutsu and genjutsu in the midst of a marathon against Uchiha. He clearly trained his body hard back then, and his reason for stopping and declining would be... maybe crippling disease eating his body away.​


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## Ersa (Aug 28, 2015)

Another point is he swapped from Kage Bunshin to Karasu Bunshin in Part II, possibly as a result of his stamina no longer being sufficient for the former technique. Which only supports the notion that a prime Itachi could've been quite a chakra beast considering he outlasted Sasuke whilst dying.


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## Tarot (Aug 28, 2015)

In Itachi's defense, that may be more of a feat of masterful chakra control, which can greatly cut down the cost of using jutsu, thus making up for stamina deficiencies. Making extremely fast hand seals is more than just a feat of speed. Each seal is used to mould chakra in a certain way, and to do multiple in such quick succession demands being able to control your chakra with a lot of precision. 
Put it like this: Sasuke has greater stamina, but his chakra control is less mature and he spends more to perform than Itachi. Also, for moves like Chidori, Sasuke has a 3.5 in speed in part 1. He has to spend stamina and force his body to accelerate faster than it's used to as well as perform the jutsu with his developing sharingan active. Even if Sasuke has a higher stamina stat, he has to spend more to do things that Itachi could do without having to exert himself much.


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## aburame alva (Aug 28, 2015)

Hey hey hey Fellow Shinobis .. I think you are missiing the point.. when itachi claim to kesame that both of them have no chance if winning...it is just to save Jiraiya from dying.. hello..Tailedless beast kesame and Itachi.. they are very capable to kill jiraiya in medium difficulty. Dont forget itachi main goal in akatsuki is to keep konoha from the threat of Akatsuki... Saving thier ass actually.. if they continue to fight Jiraiya they can manage to kill him.. without jiraiya..who among from konoha is suitabke to fight against akatsuki?.. kakashi?. clan leaders?. Damn think dude!.. tsunade maybe can handle but cant last


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## Psp123789 (Aug 28, 2015)

Base jirayia has already been confirmed as stronger than itachi, kisame and at least half of the akatsuki. Itachi gets feasted on obviously


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

FCD isn't OCC if KCM naruto had no issues using it against fodder zetsu 

Notice he did attack their legs first to prevent their escape before dropping gamaken 

pretty sure Itachi counters it by simply using genjutsu make jiraiya believe he is somewhere else 

Tough match however I would favor itachi on this one


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## Duhul10 (Aug 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> FCD isn't OCC if KCM naruto had no issues using it against fodder zetsu
> 
> Notice he did attack their legs first to prevent their escape before dropping gamaken
> 
> ...



at 20 meters Jiraiya takes his distance and starts throwing ranjishigami and yomi numa's everywhere. Itachi is going to fall at a time. Jiraiya has too much chakra for Itachi.
You know what would be ooc ? Jiraiya summons. Leaps and take 100 meters distance and the use yomi numa to cover all the 100 meters Aoe.  A circus with 100 meters in diameter. Then he waves bye bye to Itachi.
To escape genjutsu you need cakra control, don't you ? Jiraiya has some of the best feats at that. Better than Orochimaru, who almost escaped the genjutsu. 
People are saying Itachi wins because they add the edo feats. Without them, Itachi gets mid-high diff at most.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 28, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> While Frog Song was taking effect.
> 
> Surprise attack tho.


How do you surprise attack shared vision in open terrain?

No, frog song didn't take affect until after the path was kicked.

>Failed to even address him kicking Human Path in the face while Animal & Nakara surveyed


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 29, 2015)

Base Jiraiya vs Base Itachi: I think at this point in the manga Jiraiya has the slightest edge. Jiraiya is simply to versatile, experienced and base genjutsu even of Itachi's caliber should not pose that much of a threat

MS Itachi vs SM Jiraiya: For the longest time(years ago) I was one of the few who would say they were dead equeals however I would say Itachi in their respected forms easily has the edge over Jiraiya. This will not be an instant "stomp" as some like to think but JIraiya will easily push Itachi to his max


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2015)

I love the "lets discard genjutsu" argument.

I am sure Orochimaru would love to jump on that bandwagon.

Itachi's genjutsu prowess is more impressive than base Jiraiya's ninjutsu prowess. So lets just give him credit where it is due.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I love the "lets discard genjutsu" argument.
> 
> I am sure Orochimaru would love to jump on that bandwagon.
> 
> Itachi's genjutsu prowess is more impressive than base Jiraiya's ninjutsu prowess. So lets just give him credit where it is due.




Orochimaru was going to escape. Jiraiya has better chakra control feats than him. HE will escape  without injuries. So Itachi's only way to win here is gone. 
Oro does not have any impressive feats of chakra control ( if at all ) but still almost escaped.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 30, 2015)

Itachi's stamina, like pre-war arc Kakashi's, is only "bad" for the level they're competing at.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 30, 2015)

Itachi's entire arsenal since forever was focused around conservation of stamina.  Fast, precise, focused attacks and genjutsu, over taxing heavy ninjutsu.  Kakashi also always focused on quick kills and key applications of jutsu.

Hiruzen is a dude we know had stamina and lost it, which is why his entire style revolved around heavy ninjutsu until he burned out.  Hashirama, Tsunade, Madara, Naruto, Kushina, Ei, Kin/Gin bros are also in the big and heavy class.

Manga draws the line between speed and precision vs big and heavy.  Itachi's in the speed and precision camp (Minato, Tobirama, Kakashi, Orochimaru), from the clan that's more about speed and precision (Uchihas in general).  He never had, and never would have had, and never will have ever had large chakra stores as compared to the people in his class.  It's not part of his design.  But at the same time, it's not something he needs to succeed.  Just like Minato didn't need bijuu stores to be awesome, even if his stamina wasn't bad.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Orochimaru was going to escape. Jiraiya has better chakra control feats than him. HE will escape  without injuries. So Itachi's only way to win here is gone.
> Oro does not have any impressive feats of chakra control ( if at all ) but still almost escaped.



Orochimaru has higher intelligence, genjutsu and handseals score and better understanding of ninjutsu fundementals, as he is a scientist when it comes to ninjutsu.

"Orochimaru was going to escape, so can Jiriaya" is a completely baseless argument when you take the above into consideration.

Also Orochimaru couldn't escape. Even if you transfer his feats to Jiraiya, Jiraiya is still fucked.


edit : 

Also it is irritating to see that there are some people in BD who want to simply discard Itachi's genjutsu, automatically assume that Jiraiya(or others) can magically deal with it.

Isn't it a bit too optimistic, naive and sorry to say this but, stupid when you consider the lengths the opponents Itachi faced had to go just to deal with his genjutsu ? 
Come on, any opponent who isn't well equipped to fight genjutsu(by well I mean things like Bee/Hachibee, Sage Kabuto's method, comparable dojutsu prowess, etc.) will get completely humiliated before they realize what just hit them.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Itachi's entire arsenal since forever was focused around conservation of stamina.



Like exploding Kage Bunshin.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2015)

And thats part 1.

Probably Itachi would be spammming that shit left and right in part 2 if he rode the power inflation wave instead of being presented as a sick dying man just so Sasuke's "win" would be somewhat believable.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Orochimaru has higher intelligence, genjutsu and handseals score and better understanding of ninjutsu fundementals, as he is a scientist when it comes to ninjutsu.
> 
> "Orochimaru was going to escape, so can Jiriaya" is a completely baseless argument when you take the above into consideration.
> 
> ...



Intelligence is irrelevant at escaping genjutsu. You need great intelligence to practice genjutsu, not to escape. Genjutsu stat is irrelevant too because it shows the capability of using genjutsu, not escaping it. Handseals stat is even more than that because you so not need 100 seals to escape a genjutsu. LOL, talking about genjutsu and you bring up the idea of Orochimaru as a ninja who understands ninjutsu better? WTF.
yeah, it is incorrect to say '' Orochimaru was going to escape, so can Jiraiya ''.
The correct version is :
'' Orochimaru was going to escape but needed one more second. It would be no problem for Jiraiya then ''. Why? In order to escape genjutsu you need great chakra control. Jiraiya is excelling in this category and has way better feats than Orochimaru. This is the reason why Jiraiya was not afraid of looking right in the Sharingan. Because he knew he would need one panel to escape it.
The idea of Jiraiya being bad at breaking genjutsu is really funny, knowing how well he can control his flow of chakra.
Adding to your list, Ma/Pa method would easily work too.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 30, 2015)

- Handseal stat doesn't just represent the quantity of handseals, it is also proficiency. So that means Orochimary is better than Jiraiya even when performing a single handseal.
- There is actually 0 evidence that Jiraiya has better chakra control than Orochimaru.
- There is also no way to quantify the amount of chakra control required to make up for the 1 second Oro needed.
- Jiraiya looking straight into the sharingan doesn't indicate anything other than stupidity. Stop kidding yourself.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> - Handseal stat doesn't just represent the quantity of handseals, it is also proficiency. So that means Orochimary is better than Jiraiya even when performing a single handseal.
> - There is actually 0 evidence that Jiraiya has better chakra control than Orochimaru.
> - There is also no way to quantify the amount of chakra control required to make up for the 1 second Oro needed.
> - Jiraiya looking straight into the sharingan doesn't indicate anything other than stupidity. Stop kidding yourself.



ok so Orochimaru does a single handseal a little faster than Jiraiya. So what ? Still i would need a scan or something to prove me that shows the difference of speed in execution of a single handseal.
Jiraiya has a lot of feats of chakra control. Simply the fact that he can perform rasengan with a single hand is a feat. He can also make 2 at a time.  With a single hand he could do chou oodama rasengan. He was able to do finger carving seal ( a sign of creat control ) after he was turned into a hedgehog. What feats of chakra control does Oro have?
Jiraiya had knowledge on Sharingan Genjutsu yet could not give a shit about it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 30, 2015)

I would favour jiriaya
whose only threat is genjutsu which may or may not land depending on how careful jiriaya is

clones, sensing barrier, smoke bombs, summons etc

however if itachi lands genjutsu then chances are he will capitalize on it and win

ps: itachi cant beat animal path without MS

genjutsu is a no go. what else does he have?  if animal path can counter Sm jiraiya fastest attack with a summon. animal path would murder itachi with low diff. if itachi doesn't have access to MS


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 30, 2015)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Base Jiraiya vs Base Itachi: I think at this point in the manga Jiraiya has the slightest edge. Jiraiya is simply to versatile, experienced and base genjutsu even of Itachi's caliber should not pose that much of a threat
> 
> MS Itachi vs SM Jiraiya: For the longest time(years ago) I was one of the few who would say they were dead equeals however I would say Itachi in their respected forms easily has the edge over Jiraiya. This will not be an instant "stomp" as some like to think but JIraiya will easily push Itachi to his max



Basically how I feel, Jiraiya has better techniques while Itachi is vastly limited when restricted to base. Even in SM/MS, Jiraiya still has the jutsu advantage but the potency of Itachi's ninjutsu takes a massive jump.


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## ~M~ (Aug 31, 2015)

From what we've seen in destruction feats, apart from susanoo, SM > MS


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Aug 31, 2015)

Jiraiya's defense is A1. Itachi will undoubtedly encounter a bit of a struggle bypassing that defense. Plus, there's Jiraiya's boss summons. I think that may possibly overwhelm Itachi. Then again, you can say that Itachi's speed gives him a necessary advantage, which to some degree it does. But I'm not all that certain that it's enough on its own to guarantee the win. He'd have to use that in conjunction with different techniques (like he did with Sasuke). But even that will be a substantial drain for him. 

Itachi's best move is to come at Jiraiya aggressively and ensnare Jiraiya in his Genjutsu. After all, Jiraiya's never been truly skilled at executing or dispelling them. I think Itachi might win, but with extreme difficulty. His Genjutsu prowess along with his speed, I believe, gives him the edge he needs to defeat Jiraiya. However, the longer it drags on, the likelihood of Itachi's victory becomes evanescent.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 1, 2015)

Itachi wins this with Genjutsu at match start + kunai takedown.

Orochimaru didn't even get a chance to do jack shit. The only difference is J-man won't be growing his arm back later.


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## Duhul10 (Sep 1, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi wins this with Genjutsu at match start + kunai takedown.
> 
> Orochimaru didn't even get a chance to do jack shit. The only difference is J-man won't be growing his arm back later.



Jiraiya breaks the genjutsu and proceeds to kick his ass 
Orochimaru almost broke the genjutsu. 
The same way i can say Jiraiya wins at start with yomi numa. We saw how unpredictable the jutsu is. Not even mentioning FCD.


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