# Jedi enter JJBAverse



## RandomLurker (Jun 19, 2015)

The following three Jedi:
- Mace Windu
- Yoda
- Obi-Wan Kenobi
enter the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure verse at Part 1 and work their way through each part. They are in their Episode III era incarnations. Assume they can see Stands and that Force powers can interact with Stands.

How far do the Jedi get in JJBA?


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## Jon Snow (Jun 19, 2015)

I say they stop at any Stand user worth their salt. D'arby the Gambler 

Just realized their Jedi abilities might actually come in handy when playing games like D'arby does. Hmm... Timestop will likely be too much for them.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 19, 2015)

How strong are movie jedis mind/dc/dura feats again ?
Is there anything more than "those are not The droids you are looking" ?


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## Candy (Jun 19, 2015)

So many FTL stands, not enough jedi to stop them.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

We are using Legends/EU canon correct? Because Windu or Yoda could kill someone like Dio before he can react even with The World. And high tier Force-Users have relativistic to lightspeed+ reactions without even getting into their precognitive ability.

>D'Araby

Would literally get a lightsaber through the face. He's useless outside of situational scenarios and particularly weak against any psychic or telepath worth their salt who wouldn't bother dueling him in a game of cards.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

How fast are they actually? JoJo has a bunch of triple digit c characters.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Fast enough that their reactions are faster then most Stand Users would be able to summon their Stands. Majority of which are not the Stand users themselves moving at those speeds.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

And what speed is that exactly that let's them blitz 300~c characters?


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

They don't need to physically move to "blitz" any of the Stand Users in question. Now again, when did the Stand Users themselves have "300x" FTL speeds, and not their actual Stands?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Most stands aren't automatic, it's their user that directs their movements.


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## MAPSK (Jun 19, 2015)

That and scaling from Joseph's Part 2 feat gives them FTL reactions anyway.


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## Haro (Jun 19, 2015)

Stand users have FTL reactions.

As shown with Hol horse and Pol moving in specif movements that would require them to react.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Most stands aren't automatic, it's their user that directs their movements.



That doesn't equate to a Stand User having FTL reactions, remotely.


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## Haro (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> That doesn't equate to a Stand User having FTL reactions, remotely.



Except when FTL stands blitz the user then they bring out there stand.


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## Qinglong (Jun 19, 2015)

Several stands can defend their user automatically.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Except when FTL stands blitz the user then they bring out there stand.



The Stands are acting off of instinct or automatically defending the Stand User. If a Stand User is FTL, how come Josuke, Jotaro, and Oyakasu were easily overwhelmed by a lightspeed Bites the Dust?


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## Haro (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> The Stands are acting off of instinct or automatically defending the Stand User. If a Stand User is FTL, how come Josuke, Jotaro, and Oyakasu were easily overwhelmed by a lightspeed Bites the Dust?



Fair enough. 
But if one of them gets rushed at light speed. Wouldn't Crazy diamond just bitch slap them down or pretty much any A class speed stand.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> The Stands are acting off of instinct or automatically defending the Stand User. If a Stand User is FTL, how come Josuke, Jotaro, and Oyakasu were easily overwhelmed by a lightspeed Bites the Dust?



Bites the Dust wasn't overwhelming with speed, it's a time loop explosion that moves at light speed, it's not exactly a conventional type of power and it doesn't even have A rank speed. Polnareff who does have an A rank Silver Chariot moved at those speeds against another light speed opponent but had issues with knowing where he'd attack before hand yet that still counts. They don't have to react at the same level every single time otherwise we could just dismiss everything.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Fair enough.
> But if one of them gets rushed at light speed. Wouldn't Crazy diamond just bitch slap them down or pretty much any A class speed stand.



No, because Crazy Diamond has only a 2-3 meter range.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> Bites the Dust wasn't overwhelming with speed, it's a time loop explosion that moves at light speed, it's not exactly a conventional type of power and it doesn't even have A rank speed. Polnareff who does have an A rank Silver Chariot moved at those speeds against another light speed opponent but had issues with knowing where he'd attack before hand yet that still counts. They don't have to react at the same level every single time otherwise we could just dismiss everything.



That's not what I'm talking about. Killer Queen - Bites The Dust moves through light, just like how Hanged Man does. It is lightspeed as the miniature KQ enters its victim's eye. Jotaro and the others when summoning their Stands reacted WELL after KQ Bites The Dust finished its set up transferring from Hayato's body into their own.

I'm not bloody talking about how Bites the Dust works AFTER the third bomb is set for the time loop, I'm talking about the transfer for when Killer Queen - Bites The Dust enters its victim. As displayed when it overwhelmingly blitzed Jotaro, Josuke, Okayasu, Koichi, and Rohan despite being only "lightspeed". Stand Users do not have lightspeed or FTL reactions.


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2015)

Jotaro was slower and weaker in Part 4 than in Part 3.
I'm not sure about this, but Joseph is actually FTL, though that mostly applies to P2. So Joseph blitzes before any Jedi can use their shields or something like that, because I don't remember absolutely any above peak human durability feats or at least nothing that would allow to take a punch from Joseph _without barriers/TK/shit they could use but for which they need to be able to react_

Before you say anything - they might have some above peak human stuff going on for them, fair enough, but not city block level+


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Ramius said:


> Jotaro was slower and weaker in Part 4 than in Part 3.



No, he wasn't. Jotaro in Part 4 can actually spam and chain time-stops, he just can't maintain them as long as he could in Part 3. Despite only having 1-3 second long durations in Diamond is Unbreakable, his mastery over spamming them is superior to the 5 second long time-stops he could pop off every so often in Part 3 against Dio.

Star Platinum itself is not any weaker or slower and Jotaro has over a decade of experience to build off of since Stardust Crusaders.



> I'm not sure about this, but Joseph is actually FTL, though that mostly applies to P2. So Joseph blitzes before any Jedi can use their shields or something like that, because I don't remember absolutely any above peak human durability feats or at least nothing that would allow to take a punch from Joseph _without barriers/TK/shit they could use but or which they need to be able to react_
> 
> Before you say anything - they might have some above peak human stuff going on for them, fair enough, but not city block level+



High tier Force-Users have double digit FTL reactions even without accounting for their precognitive abilities. Joseph would have to get in close, and certainly not faster them in movement or reactions and you have to be something like 30-40x faster to actually blitz someone from standard OBD starting pace which is like 20-30 meters.


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2015)

double digit FTL reactions? Where does _that_ one from? I wasn't aware. I thought only Luke and Palps are some very low FTL level of speed mostly because of their crazy precog.

And IIRC Jotaro notes in the 4th part that he got "rusty"  (slower). Even needed Josuke's help with that rat stand because of that, but it's been a long time since I've read it


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Taalon himself hits 6 to 10x light speed with his nanosecond feat against a FTL blaster attack that travels at 333 x the speed of light, that was actually a "volley" of fully automatic blaster fire, not a single shot. And a low tier Jedi Knight subconsciously reacts to a lightspeed attack from less then 2 meters or so away without realizing it.

Upper-low tier/low mid-tiers have low FTL reactions.
Higher tier have near or over double digit FTL reactions coupled with precog letting them deal with FAR faster if they have even just a literal nanosecond to anticipate or react to it subconsciously.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> No, he wasn't. Jotaro in Part 4 can actually spam and chain time-stops, he just can't maintain them as long as he could in Part 3. Despite only having 1-3 second long durations in Diamond is Unbreakable, his mastery over spamming them is superior to the 5 second long time-stops he could pop off every so often in Part 3 against Dio.
> 
> Star Platinum itself is not any weaker or slower and Jotaro has over a decade of experience to build off of since Stardust Crusaders.
> 
> ...



When did Jotaro time stop for 5 seconds against Dio? He was only able to do that in Stone Ocean once SP had been developed completely.

With Joseph that might be fine, but being able to react first means characters like Dio who can time stop can do so before the Jedi react.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> When did Jotaro time stop for 5 seconds against Dio?



In the fight against Dio when he learned to fully stop time for 5 seconds.



> He was only able to do that in Stone Ocean once SP had been developed completely.



Wrong.



> With Joseph that might be fine, but being able to react first means characters like Dio who can time stop can do so before the Jedi react.



Dio starts off 20 meters away from them, which is standard distance in the OBD rules.
The World has a maximum range of 9 meters.
Dio does not have FTL reactions or speed, The World does.

So he's in capable of blitzing them, and is inferior in range. What do you think this results in? Especially with high tiers like Yoda and Windu being able to dish out continental level DC with Force attacks?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2015)

> Especially with high tiers like Yoda and Windu being able to dish out continental level DC with Force attacks?



hunh

what's the feat that this statement is based on


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Yoda and Windu being equals more or less, at least comparable to Sidious? You know Sidious and Windu or Yoda being superior to a guy like Starkiller who could power up a shot on a rebel frigate to cause it to blast a Star Destroyer into obilivion, which has petaton level durability with its shielding...in half which comes out to Sidious >>> Starkiller.

There's also the fact many of them are more powerful then ancient Jedi Masters who could deal with Force attacks that could raze planetary surfaces and what not.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 19, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> hunh
> 
> what's the feat that this statement is based on



From the  fight possibly gives a fairly clear cut feat without Vaapad 

Pointed out/explained better  specifically

That said, Windu's still stronger than Anakin up to the time of his fight with Sidious if Lucas' statement that you needed to either be Yoda or Windu to contend with Sidious means anything to you, especially given Anakin as Vader readily admitted he was still not capable of usurping Sidious during RotS before Mustafar IIRC.

That said, a concrete puzzle is somewhat more difficult for me to put together than I'd like


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> Dio starts off 20 meters away from them, which is standard distance in the OBD rules.
> The World has a maximum range of 9 meters.
> Dio does not have FTL reactions or speed, The World does.
> 
> So he's in capable of blitzing them, and is inferior in range. What do you think this results in? Especially with high tiers like Yoda and Windu being able to dish out continental level DC with Force attacks?



What does range matter when he's got the speed advantage and a universal time stop? He has hypesonic+ movement speed on his own. He just stops time, goes over there and beats them to death. They can't do anything because of the time stop.

What you're saying is that A rank speed stand users can't handle FTL shit because only their stands can react. This means that in literally ever case of a stand user being used in the OBD, we've been wrong and said stand users can't do shit to anyone because they're too slow for their own powers. Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Stands are controlled by their user and only certain stands with personalities (which are also ordered) or ones that run on automatic at their user's command can act on their own. Therefore stand users have FTL reactions.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> What does range matter when he's got the speed advantage and a universal time stop?



Dio doesn't have a speed advantage because the speed is primarily displayed The World itself.  Which is limited by a range of 9 meters from Dio, which leaves it more then 11 meters still away from the Jedi. And it can only move 9 meters away from Dio.



> He has hypesonic+ movement speed on his own. He just stops time, goes over there and beats them to death. They can't do anything because of the time stop.



>hypersonic+ movement speed
So?

>he just stops time
Which runs out before he can get close to the Jedi and his personal reactions/reflexes are vastly inferior to said Jedi to begin with

So Dio gets lobotomized before he can use The World.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> Dio doesn't have a speed advantage because the speed is primarily displayed The World itself.  Which is limited by a range of 9 meters from Dio, which leaves it more then 11 meters still away from the Jedi. And it can only move 9 meters away from Dio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He stops time before they do anything and then walks over and kills them. Why would time run out before he can do something like that? He's not stuck moving slower than a peak human during the time stop when he gets in range.

Also check my above post because it was updated while you were responding.


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## MAPSK (Jun 19, 2015)

>Jedi have FTL+ reactions without precog

Wait, when in the _fuck_ did this happen?


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He stops time before they do anything and then walks over and kills them. Why would time run out before he can do something like that? He's not stuck moving slower than a peak human during the time stop when he gets in range.
> 
> Also check my above post because it was updated while you were responding.



He can't stop time before they do anything because his reactions are not even a fraction of their own. 



MAPSK said:


> >Jedi have FTL+ reactions without precog
> 
> Wait, when in the _fuck_ did this happen?



When they have casual nanosecond reactions? When a low high tier like Taalon can casually slap away a volley of 333x FTL speed blaster bolts with one hand casually?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> He can't stop time before they do anything because his reactions are not even a fraction of their own.



It doesn't make sense that he can't even react fast enough to use his own powers. He's also time stopped while being attacked


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## MAPSK (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> He can't stop time before they do anything because his reactions are not even a fraction of their own.
> 
> 
> 
> When they have casual nanosecond reactions? When a low high tier like Taalon can casually slap away a volley of 333x FTL speed blaster bolts with one hand casually?



When did that happen and since when were blaster bolts FTL?


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It doesn't make sense that he can't even react fast enough to use his own powers. He's also time stopped while being attacked



So high tier Force Users with clearly FTL reactions/reflexes, not even getting into the fact they aren't limited by melee range thanks to Force powers and possessing precognitive abilities and danger senses are going to react slower to a hypersonic enemy whose crutch is his main offense power has to be summoned directly during the battle and is slower then them...are somehow out-reacted by Dio?

Do you understand this?

And stop bringing A rank FTL Stands equating to FTL Stand Users, because you were already proven wrong in that claim with KQ Bites The Dust vs Josuke and Jotaro.



MAPSK said:


> When did that happen and since when were blaster bolts FTL?



The special blaster rifle in question displayed FTL blaster bolts, as a rule standard blaster technology isn't FTL or lightspeed. But Luke was using a very specific high end long-blaster rifle.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 19, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> When did that happen and since when were blaster bolts FTL?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> So high tier Force Users with clearly FTL reactions/reflexes, not even getting into the fact they aren't limited by melee range thanks to Force powers and possessing precognitive abilities and danger senses are going to react slower to a hypersonic enemy whose crutch is his main offense power has to be summoned directly during the battle and is slower then them...are somehow out-reacted by Dio?
> 
> Do you understand this?
> 
> And stop bringing A rank FTL Stands equating to FTL Stand Users, because you were already proven wrong in that claim with KQ Bites The Dust vs Josuke and Jotaro.



That's just how it works and The World is amongst the fastest of those A rank stands as it's at least as fast as Star Platinum which by scaling and by author statements is FTL. Silver Chariot with its armor on was capable of multiple FTL feats and Star Platinum is similarly fast. Dio isn't merely hypersonic, he's got FTL reactions as he has feats of reacting during battle with Jotaro and relativistic or so feats from flicking away Emerald Splash and he receives that scaling. Characters don't always react and fight to the optimum of their own abilities due to PIS/CIS and as I explained Polnareff wasn't able to deal with The Hanged Man, but managed to pull off that FTL feat with Silver Chariot against it. Another example would be characters who are fast enough to dodge bullets getting shot by a gun. We use the best feats and scaling and don't drag down characters because they performed worse at another point.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

>literally no rebuttal


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2015)

Matter of fact, if even that single digit FTL feat applies to Windu/Obi-Wan etc that's actually more or less enough.

Only saving grace here is if you either scale Part 3 Stand Users from P2 characters like Joseph/Caesar with their FTL reactions/short speed movement and that still wouldn't suffice if the Jedis have actually better FTL feats. or if we scale the Stands' reaction speed to their users, which more or less slightly defeats the purpose of having a Stand in the first place if they are that fast themselves already. Polnareff is a shining example.

I wasn't aware they actually had FTL feats though, honestly always thought high-tier Jedis are ~relativistic and only the very cream of the crop are FTL, to a very low degree.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 19, 2015)

like what's been said before, Stands do have some degree of autonomy at times 

kind of makes arguing for remotely similar reflexes for their users problematic 

and DIO does appear to have to consciously activate time stop. ZA WARUDO can probably automatically react with punches and whatnot, but I remember DIO having to trigger time stop himself


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Ramius said:


> Only saving grace here is if you either scale Part 3 Stand Users from P2 characters like Joseph/Caesar with their FTL reactions/short speed movement and that still wouldn't suffice if the Jedis have actually better FTL feats. or if we scale the Stands' reaction speed to their users, which more or less slightly defeats the purpose of having a Stand in the first place if they are that fast themselves already. Polnareff is a shining example.



Stand users direct their stands and thus have to react for them to properly attack at the speeds they're fighting at. They aren't some automatic avatar that gets turned on and then attacks however a stand user feels is best. They are controlled by the user in the way that the user directs.

Also if this was the case where stand users' themselves are that much slower, then doesn't that go against existing matches where they win due to speed? Since the strongest ones don't have much range and the user could be too slow to activate their power then couldn't any decent ranged fighter easily work his way through JoJo?




Crimson Dragoon said:


> like what's been said before, Stands do have some degree of autonomy at times
> 
> kind of makes arguing for remotely similar reflexes for their users problematic
> 
> and DIO does appear to have to consciously activate time stop. ZA WARUDO can probably automatically react with punches and whatnot, but I remember DIO having to trigger time stop himself



He does activate it on his own, but he's done so while being attacked by Star Platinum.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Stand users direct their stands and thus have to react for them to properly attack at the speeds they're fighting at.



This doesn't make a lick of sense nor is it corrobrated with in the manga in any of the Parts with Stands in them. Just because Star Platinum is faster then light, doesn't make Jotaro's reactions FTL or lightspeed. Stand Users are shown to be fragile and not to be remotely anywhere near the power or abilities of Stands in general.

You know, like Kira getting beaten up by a pair of street thugs before he resorts to using Killer Queen to killing the two when he realized there were no witnesses on the street in endanger his identity.



> They aren't some automatic avatar that gets turned on and then attacks however a stand user feels is best. They are controlled by the user in the way that the user directs.



Wrong again. Star Platinum was automatically defending Jotaro during his initial reactions and reflexes experiencing time-stops without Jotaro aware of it. Even when Jotaro and Dio were fighting each other with The World vs Star Platinum, it was Stand sent against Stand to act automatically against each other. 

There is not a single shred of evidence Jotaro or Dio are capable of the same feats of speed, reactions, or movement as their Stands are. Same again with Josuke, Koichi, Oyakasu, Polnareff, Kakayoin, Avdul, and so on.



> Also if this was the case where stand users' themselves are that much slower, then doesn't that go against existing matches where they win due to speed? Since the strongest ones don't have much range and the user could be too slow to activate their power then couldn't any decent ranged fighter easily work his way through JoJo?



What kind of goofy strawman is this? Usually they were matched against opponents with similar reactions or slower speeds then they themselves as Stand users have displayed. Its that simple.



> He does activate it on his own, but he's done so while being attacked by Star Platinum.



That doesn't equate to FTL or lightspeed reactions. When The World does a Muda muda muda punch barrage, Dio isn't waving his arms around at those speeds, The World is. Dio also has to consciously time-stop, he doesn't have to say ZA WARUDO, but he does have to think it. Just like how Crazy Diamond was allowing Josuke to instinctively use its power for attack or defense, or how it wasn't able to react in time to protect Josuke from a punch from Star Platinum when they first got in a scuffle.

The overwhelming amount of evidence proves your claim wrong.


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2015)

Actually it's true that some stands are specifically 'automatic' avatars (like one of Dio's sons in P6 with that stand where fiction was turned into real life), which means the rest aren't. The World doesn't have its own autonomy for instance. So you may have a point there

@Fang
I think the idea here is that Stands are psychic manifestation of the Users, so they control them with their mind, which means that while their reaction speed or combat speed isn't on par with stands, their speed of 'thinking' is that high. Which in its own turn means that Dio could technically activate the time stop in time, because all he has to do is think of it. Or Jotaro.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

We aren't talking about automatic Stand types though, we're talking about humanoid Stand types that typically do their own instinctual thing to protect their Stand User or fight other Stands.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 19, 2015)

I never finished JJBA but I'm pretty sure the time stop part is on Dio's own command and nothing more . However, Za Warudo is automatic to some level(By this I mean that Dio is not getting trashed without Za Warudo appearing), and Star Platinum is CERTAINLY very fucking much automatic(Like it's one of the reasons Jotaro could fight Dio) .


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

I don't you guys understand what "automatic" means for humanoid Stand types in the context being argued here.


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2015)

So what about Giorno? Or Pucci?


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

They have no way of dealing with GER. Pucchi can still get wrecked easily enough though before he could use Made in Heaven/Stairway to Heaven or even killed during it.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 19, 2015)

> Self-Preservation: Star Platinum possesses the awareness and reaction speed to protect Jotaro in many instances that he himself seems unaware; halting a bullet he experimentally shoots at his own head;[1] protecting him while frozen by Dio's Time Stop; and reviving him from near-death by directly pumping his heart.[2]



From the wiki because I don't want to go look into the manga because it's messy and I didn't even finish yet, so I get confused pretty easily .

If that isn't automatic I don't know what the fuck is, mate .


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Automatic stands are things like Baby Face and Sheer Heart Attack. That just further proves the point however that what the Stands like Crazy Diamond or Star Platinum react to its a instinctual act of protection.

This is another case of going in circles, ad naseum.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> This doesn't make a lick of sense nor is it corrobrated with in the manga in any of the Parts with Stands in them. Just because Star Platinum is faster then light, doesn't make Jotaro's reactions FTL or lightspeed. Stand Users are shown to be fragile and not to be remotely anywhere near the power or abilities of Stands in general.
> 
> You know, like Kira getting beaten up by a pair of street thugs before he resorts to using Killer Queen to killing the two when he realized there were no witnesses on the street in endanger his identity.



In my point I say they have to be able to react in order to properly fight other stands and you're not refuting that. The reason stand users use stands is because they are indeed superior to their users, they have better power (usually), speed, have unique powers, etc and that's why they are used. Stand Users merely have the reactions to be able to properly use their stands and benefit from a slight physical boost as pretty much all of them are at least peak human+-superhuman.

Kira is an awful example. He's extremely set on maintaining his way of life and will do anything to do so. Once he decided that there was no way that him taking care of them could be leaked back to him, he took care of those thugs. It has nothing to do with reactions, but rather his own obsessiveness. His stand is only D rank in speed anyway.



Fang said:


> Wrong again. Star Platinum was automatically defending Jotaro during his initial reactions and reflexes experiencing time-stops without Jotaro aware of it. Even when Jotaro and Dio were fighting each other with The World vs Star Platinum, it was Stand sent against Stand to act automatically against each other.



Star Platinum is actually one of a few exceptions of stands having a personality, mild or otherwise and it doesn't possess a full personality like Whitesnake, but has a desire to protect Jotaro. Most stands are not like this. The stands were moving as the users wanted them to, perhaps they may have left them to barrage on their own, but they also make certain decisions in mid combat. The closest thing The World has to a personality is a statement from part 6 saying that it would have gone out of control if not for Dio's dominant personality (which indicates that he's even having to restrain The World a bit). There are many more similarly fast stands that have no self-awareness.



Fang said:


> There is not a single shred of evidence Jotaro or Dio are capable of the same feats of speed, reactions, or movement as their Stands are. Same again with Josuke, Koichi, Oyakasu, Polnareff, Kakayoin, Avdul, and so on.


It's just reactions, otherwise they wouldn't even be able to keep up with their fight. In Dio's case he can at least on his own move fast enough to flick away Emerald Splash, but I'm not arguing for movement or physical reactions, but rather mental reactions that allow them to fight against other stands
[/QUOTE]




Fang said:


> That doesn't equate to FTL or lightspeed reactions. When The World does a Muda muda muda punch barrage, Dio isn't waving his arms around at those speeds, The World is. Dio also has to consciously time-stop, he doesn't have to say ZA WARUDO, but he does have to think it. Just like how Crazy Diamond was allowing Josuke to instinctively use its power for attack or defense, or how it wasn't able to react in time to protect Josuke from a punch from Star Platinum when they first got in a scuffle.
> 
> The overwhelming amount of evidence proves your claim wrong.



Again I'm talking about their ability to direct the stands as reactions, not that they can physically move at those speeds. Dio uses his time stop while being attack by Star Platinum. In the case of CD attacking Jotaro, he also in that case made the decision to time stop and CD was moving FTL.


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## Ramius (Jun 19, 2015)

SW threads


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## Qinglong (Jun 19, 2015)

Even Sheer Heart attack is C in speed.


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> In my point I say they have to be able to react in order to properly fight other stands and you're not refuting that.



How have I not refuted it? What was your counter-claim to the fact Jotaro putting a gun to his head and knowing the bullet would be stopped by Star Platinum even though he himself is not a bullet-timer or has "hypersonic" reactions?

Or the glaring example of three FTL A-ranked Stand Users like Star Platinum, Crazy Diamond, and The Hand being unable to react to a lightspeed moving Stand like Killer Queen - Bites The Dust? Or Jotaro get suckered by a bullet fired at him from a weird angle in Stone Ocean? You haven't rebutted anything I said and are just blabbering the same defunct argument over and over again.



> The reason stand users use stands is because they are indeed superior to their users, they have better power (usually), speed, have unique powers, etc and that's why they are used. Stand Users merely have the reactions to be able to properly use their stands and benefit from a slight physical boost as pretty much all of them are at least peak human+-superhuman.



Stand Users have never displayed the reactions on par or equivalent to their Stands. The World is pointed out a target by Dio, Star Platinum is pointed at a target by Jotaro, etc...their Stand Users send them to attack or defend against something. That doesn't magically carry a context of being able to keep up with their Stand's own speed or reactions.

It never has.

Or you want to explain again how Kira was getting kicked and beat up by two street thugs despite having "FTL" reflexes if he could simply just dodge their simple attacks from a pair of normal humans?



> Kira is an awful example. He's extremely set on maintaining his way of life and will do anything to do so. Once he decided that there was no way that him taking care of them could be leaked back to him, he took care of those thugs. It has nothing to do with reactions, but rather his own obsessiveness. His stand is only D rank in speed anyway.



Killer Queen is faster then a B-ranked Echoes Act III.
Killer Queen's stats reflect having a rank equivalent to Crazy Diamond since its on par with Crazy Diamond in hand to hand combat, reactions, and attack speed.
Killer Queen even with its right hand disabled, against a healthy Echoes Act III using a punch barrage with B ranked attack speed, got knocked away by a single counter attack.

Sheer Heart Attack is ranked at C in speed. Did you actually read JoJo?

The rest of what you said is entirely irrelevant and also wrong, and proves again that Stand stats ! = Stand User stats.



> Star Platinum is actually one of a few exceptions of stands having a personality, mild or otherwise and it doesn't possess a full personality like Whitesnake, but has a desire to protect Jotaro.



Who gives a shit about Stands having personalities, this is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. All humanoid Stand types have displayed instinctual protective natures to guard their Stand Users. White Snakes did with Pucchi, Crazy Diamond did with Josuke, Silver Chariot does with Polnareff, Star Platinum does with Jotaro, Act III does with Koichi, The Hand does with Okuyasu and so on.



> Most stands are not like this.



All humanoid types are.



> The stands were moving as the users wanted them to, perhaps they may have left them to barrage on their own, but they also make certain decisions in mid combat. The closest thing The World has to a personality is a statement from part 6 saying that it would have gone out of control if not for Dio's dominant personality (which indicates that he's even having to restrain The World a bit). There are many more similarly fast stands that have no self-awareness.



Once again, irrelevant fluff.




> It's just reactions, otherwise they wouldn't even be able to keep up with their fight. In Dio's case he can at least on his own move fast enough to flick away Emerald Splash, but I'm not arguing for movement or physical reactions, but rather mental reactions that allow them to fight against other stands



Dio was using The World against Kakayoin as soon as he started resorting to AoE attacks to survive and dodge them. Dio is also an exception to the rule in regards to his reactions and reflexes being superior to any normal Human Stand User.

Nothing of what you claim is actually true. They do not need to have FTL reactions to direct or utilize FTL Stands. You just keep going in circles, ad naseum, ad infinitum, on the same claim.




> Again I'm talking about their ability to direct the stands as reactions, not that they can physically move at those speeds. Dio uses his time stop while being attack by Star Platinum. In the case of CD attacking Jotaro, he also in that case made the decision to time stop and CD was moving FTL.



Dio planned out the time-stop to dodge Star Platinum, before they actually fought in that bout.
Jotaro had to spam a time-stop to dodge a punch from Crazy Diamond because Crazy Diamond is actually FASTER then Star Platinum, and his head would've been smashed.

Once again:

Pulling a time-stop ! =  Stand User reaction speed.



Ramius said:


> SW threads



More like A U T I S M threads


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 19, 2015)

Polnareff dodged cream attacks from point in blank iirc
Also AOBTD doesn't even need to be just LS
This is like claiming a fictional laser can't move faster than light despite having feats to do so 
If AOBTD blitzed jotaro and crew this just goes to show it is also ftl


----------



## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> Also AOBTD doesn't even need to be just LS
> This is like claiming a fictional laser can't move faster than light despite having feats to do so
> If AOBTD blitzed jotaro and crew this just goes to show it is also ftl



Your comparison makes little to no sense at all. Killer Queen - Bites The Dust moves through light, there is no other reason to assume it moves faster then light at all. It travels through like Hanged Man to enter its victim's body through their eyes.

Occham's Razor.


----------



## MAPSK (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> Your comparison makes little to no sense at all. Killer Queen - Bites The Dust moves through light, there is no other reason to assume it moves faster then light at all. It travels through like Hanged Man to enter its victim's body through their eyes.
> 
> Occham's Razor.



And Superman's heat vision is ordinary thermal radiation that can tag people and objects moving faster than light.


----------



## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> And Superman's heat vision is ordinary thermal radiation that can tag people and objects moving faster than light.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> Your comparison makes little to no sense at all. Killer Queen - Bites The Dust moves through light, there is no other reason to assume it moves faster then light at all. It travels through like Hanged Man to enter its victim's body through their eyes.
> 
> Occham's Razor.



Occham's Razor is to turn the debate of a point irrelevant when it has too many assumptions, I don't think it applies .

Anyways, we have seen many times FTL radiation(That should move LS), MHS+ sound, one good example is Superman, another is Zebra's sound attakcs that are no way sound speed .


----------



## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Occham's Razor is to turn the debate of a point irrelevant, I don't think it applies .



Occham's Razor is to accept the simplest and least complicated explanation as valid on an debated point or argument. Which it does apply to:

Now let's review:

a) Specifically stated that KQ Bites The Dust moves into its victim's "vision"; which implies travel through light
b) Specifically states "field of vision" in the Stand databook entry 
c) Its speed stat is ranked at B, meaning lightspeed or slower

Why should we accept its FTL when its displayed no reason to be so?



> Anyways, we have seen many times FTL radiation(That should move LS), MHS+ sound, one good example is Superman, another is Zebra's sound attakcs that are no way sound speed .



None of that has any comparison or common ground with Killer Queen - Bites the Dust. Its not radiation, its a miniature KQ that travels through light to enter its target/victim's vision before setting off.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> Occham's Razor is to accept the simplest and least complicated explanation as valid on an debated point or argument. Which it does apply to:
> 
> Now let's review:
> 
> ...



Because of feats ?


----------



## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

The feat in question gives no evidence of faster then light speeds when its moving in light itself. So why should we?


----------



## Haro (Jun 19, 2015)

Because of feats?


----------



## Matta Clatta (Jun 19, 2015)

Notorious BIG GG
Oh and the force is useless when you place the jedi in situation stand scenarios.
Its enough for them to beat someone like Dio but against Tohth its not gonna fly


----------



## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Because of feats?



There are no feats to give it FTL.



Matta Clatta said:


> Notorious BIG GG
> Oh and the force is useless when you place the jedi in situation stand scenarios.
> Its enough for them to beat someone like Dio but against Tohth its not gonna fly



NOTORIOUS BIG is literally a retarded Stand that was tricked into chasing waves. Windu and Yoda are not stupid. Only Stand that is a certain killer or stomper is GER.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> Your comparison makes little to no sense at all. Killer Queen - Bites The Dust moves through light, there is no other reason to assume it moves faster then light at all. It travels through like Hanged Man to enter its victim's body through their eyes.
> 
> Occham's Razor.



>blitz guys who can keep up with ftl stands
>claims there is no proff it is ftl 
Feats>>>statements


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> >blitz guys who can keep up with ftl stands
> >claims there is no proff it is ftl
> Feats>>>statements


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 19, 2015)

wait

this thread isn't in the meta

fang got a full unban?


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## Fang (Jun 19, 2015)

>so short on the uptake

Reactions: Agree 1


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## zTundra (Jun 20, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> >blitz guys who can keep up with ftl stands
> >claims there is no proff it is ftl
> Feats>>>statements



This. To sum up things:

>SP and CD react independently of their users
>both have FTL reactions via feats and scaling
>Bites the Dust blitzes both

Anyone who claims Bites the Dust is only lightspeed is probably mentally ill.


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## AngryHeretic (Jun 20, 2015)

zTundra said:


> This. To sum up things:
> 
> >SP and CD react independently of their users
> >both have FTL reactions via feats and scaling
> ...



FTFY.

Anyway, IIRC Jotaro, Kakyoin, Polnareff, and Abdul were able to flee The Sun stand and avoid getting hit by any of the light-speed lasers Sun was putting out. That should give them reactions approaching lightspeed.

Also since nobody but Fang seems to think the Jedi have much of a chance, and all he has left in his defense are meme pics, can someone else explain the "333x lightspeed blaster bolts"?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 20, 2015)

AngryHeretic said:


> Also since nobody but Fang seems to think the Jedi have much of a chance, and all he has left in his defense are meme pics, can someone else explain the "333x lightspeed blaster bolts"?



I just linked it like a page ago


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

Ehhhh that honestly seems unlikely.

As much as 300X FTL mace would make my dick rock hard, im just not seeing that


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

zTundra said:


> This. To sum up things:
> 
> >SP and CD react independently of their users
> >both have FTL reactions via feats and scaling
> >Bites the Dust blitzes both



Except they don't. They react instinctively to protect their Stand Users, they don't magically attack something that the Stand User themselves are unaware of, only for defense. And its not guaranteed.

Also

>that frustration negging a single post of mine without actually addressing a single argument or post I made in the rest of the thread





> Anyone who claims Bites the Dust is only lightspeed is probably mentally ill.



You mean Bites the Dust that is ranked B in speed? The same Bites the Dust that operates exactly the same way Hanged Man does? Or is a lightspeed Hanged Man magically FTL now too?

Nice shit attempt at poisoning the well though. 



AngryHeretic said:


> FTFY.
> 
> Anyway, IIRC Jotaro, Kakyoin, Polnareff, and Abdul were able to flee The Sun stand and avoid getting hit by any of the light-speed lasers Sun was putting out. That should give them reactions approaching lightspeed.



You mean a Sun that was refracting beams of light indirectly before actually aiming them at the Stardust Crusaders crew? And its main mode of attack was heat, not light. Because it doesn't work that way.



> Also since nobody but Fang seems to think the Jedi have much of a chance, and all he has left in his defense are meme pics, can someone else explain the "333x lightspeed blaster bolts"?



What do you mean nobody but me? You do realize there isn't a single person here buying FTL Stand Users here except you and the local shitposters who don't know anything about JoJo or Star Wars, like the guy claiming Killer Queen has a D Rank in speed and magically forgetting about every single consistent shred of evidence of Stand Users failing to deal with slower then lightspeed attacks.

Don't embarrass yourself any more here. 



Cool kid said:


> Ehhhh that honestly seems unlikely.
> 
> As much as 300X FTL mace would make my dick rock hard, im just not seeing that


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 20, 2015)

Whats stopping either of the Jedi from turning Dio into a vegetable at FTL speeds?


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

"The Sun vs Stardust Crusaders crew equates to FTL Stand Users"





Black Leg Sanji said:


> Whats stopping either of the Jedi from turning Dio into a vegetable at FTL speeds?



Nothing.

Especially since "FTL" Jotaro can't even react to bullets or slower then light speed attacks.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Whats stopping either of the Jedi from turning Dio into a vegetable at FTL speeds?



Faster time stops of course. But apparently now and only now there's an argument against this.


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

Time-stop requires a slower Dio or Jotaro to react before a faster Yoda or Windu. Which isn't happening.


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

Re read the calc.
Unless im missing something crucial I'm not getting this. Also if there isnt another feat like this wouldnt it be a outlier?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 20, 2015)

Fang said:


> Time-stop requires a slower Dio or Jotaro to react before a faster Yoda or Windu. Which isn't happening.



How'd the first fight between Jotaro and Josuke play out again?

Been a while, but didn't Jotaro need to react to time stop due to Crazy Diamond being so damn fast? 

Or was Star Platinum fighting a losing battle to mitigate the need for FTL reactions?


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> How'd the first fight between Jotaro and Josuke play out again?
> 
> Been a while, but didn't Jotaro need to react to time stop due to Crazy Diamond being so damn fast?
> 
> Or was Star Platinum fighting a losing battle to mitigate the need for FTL reactions?



He was holding back. Josuke would have wreckt him if jotaro hadn't stopped time


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Re read the calc.
> Unless im missing something crucial I'm not getting this. Also if there isnt another feat like this wouldnt it be a outlier?



That's not what an outlier means, try again. There are also multiple instances of relativistic, sub-lightspeed, and faster then light speed reactions by Force-Users in EU anyways.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> How'd the first fight between Jotaro and Josuke play out again?



Jotaro punched Josuke in the face trying to calm him, it enraged Josuke further (WITHOUT CD reactively protecting him from said punch/slap), Crazy Diamond over powers Star Platinum, and Jotaro has use a time-stop before the punch connected through Star Platinum.

Crazy Diamond was so fast that even then, it merely 'destroyed' Jotaro's hat instead of his face. 



> Been a while, but didn't Jotaro need to react to time stop due to Crazy Diamond being so damn fast?



Yep, but overall Crazy Diamond and Star Platinum are more or less equal. 



> Or was Star Platinum fighting a losing battle to mitigate the need for FTL reactions?



Not sure I understand what you are asking here. An enraged Josuke's Crazy Diamond was faster and tougher then Star Platinum, he broke Star Platinum's guard with a punch, over-balancing Star Platinum and since it was off-balance, Jotaro had to use a time-stop since he wouldn't have been able to dodge the attack otherwise.



Cool kid said:


> He was holding back. Josuke would have wreckt him if jotaro hadn't stopped time



Josuke wasn't holding back.
Jotaro had to use a time-stop to survive and dodge the punch.
Its just more proof that Stand Users are nowhere near the reactions or movement speed of their Stands.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 20, 2015)

Someone figure they could post the fight?

I'll look at and discuss the scene later when not limited to a laggy phone browser w/o ad blocker (would have it, but lazy and updating my phone to install it is a pain)


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Iwandesu (Jun 20, 2015)

the fight

*Spoiler*: __ 







jotaro clearly reacts and stops time after josuke ftl punch is thrown from melee range which is not something SP does in his lonelisome and thus needs him to mentally react at said ftl speed
are we done with this bs downplay now ?


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> the fight
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





Even the new colored translation shows it too. kek


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

"If I hadn't time stopped."


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

Star platniums guard was fucking one shotted. Clearly blocking isnt working


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

I don't think you understand anything that been displayed so far debunking the claims about "FTL" reactions for Stand Users, which is apparent since its like a repetition with that one fucker earlier in thread from yesterday. 

The Josuke vs Jotaro fight at the start of Part 4 shows that even the "instinctual" automatic or reflexive protection of Stands isn't always guaranteed. as shown when a slower Jotaro punched a surprised Josuke after the time-stop. Or is Jotaro's hand now faster then Star Platinum and Crazy Diamond?

Or the fact that Star Platinum stopped time since it was unbalanced and otherwise Jotaro would've gotten nailed after being overpowered by Crazy Diamond. No indication of the Stand User Jotaro himself reacting to CD's attack.

That simple.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 20, 2015)

jotaro himself needs to react in order to realise his is not gonna make it and stop time before the punch arrives on him
so no this is a perfect example of reactions and your stupid meme is stupid


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## willyvereb (Jun 20, 2015)

To be completely fair, Stand stats are only barely more reliable than Servant stats from FSN.
And speed is one of the biggest offender in this.
By feats there are tons of C,B and perhaps even D rank speed Stand users who react against FTL Stands in Jojo.
And like others said the Stands are just an extension of the user's psychic/spiritual powers and when the Stands move so did they. Stands can protect the user by instinct but that's far from omniscient and more like we are talking about an extension on the user's own instincts.

On the other hand we have FTL blaster bolts and even if we try to deny this we can't dispute the actual feat and use it for taalon or anyone who can be scaled to him.
That's a fact.

Also I don't know what was the consensus on Exar Kun's interstellar travel feat as a ghost. But that may give further boost.
Lastly, neither Notorious BIG nor Gold Experience Requiem are "infinitely fast". That's pure BS if you look at the actual fights.


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> jotaro himself needs to react in order to realise his is not gonna make it and stop time before the punch arrives on him



No he doesn't, his Stand does. You guys literally go in fucking circles, you claim one thing until its disproven, then run back making a counter-claim that is contradictory to your earlier arguments.

"Stand Users are as fast as their Stands"
"Well even if they aren't as fast as their Stands, the Stand itself is fast enough to react to it"
"Until the time its not fast enough to react to a Stand User"

Top kek.



> so no this is a perfect example of reactions and your stupid meme is stupid


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 20, 2015)

Fang said:


> No he doesn't, his Stand does. You guys literally go in fucking circles, you claim one thing until its disproven, then run back making a counter-claim that is contradictory to your earlier arguments.
> 
> "Stand Users are as fast as their Stands"
> "Well even if they aren't as fast as their Stands, the Stand itself is fast enough to react to it"
> ...


wot ?
stand users have reaction time as fast or nearly as fast as the ones of their stands because they need to control their stands into some extent and make decisions in the middle of the battle
do you even know what would happen if jotaro wasn't ftl in mind reactions by himself but just star platinum ?
he would just activate SP and stand there completely blind because no peak human/hypersonic character would even be able to process a though between the time time it takes to freaking ftl punches to be delivered and would have absolutely no idea that sp defense were about to be broken by CD punch nor would be able to activate time stop (which was never showed to be something star platinum can do by himself ) because he wouldn't even realise the fucking punch was being delivered on his direction to begin with


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

>literally the same inane argument in one tl ;dr for the 3rd or 4th time in a row
>Jotaro has to be "FTL" just like Star Platinum
>can't react to a lightspeed Stand
>can't react to a bullet





willyvereb said:


> On the other hand we have FTL blaster bolts and even if we try to deny this we can't dispute the actual feat and use it for taalon or anyone who can be scaled to him.
> That's a fact.
> 
> Also I don't know what was the consensus on Exar Kun's interstellar travel feat as a ghost. But that may give further boost.
> Lastly, neither Notorious BIG nor Gold Experience Requiem are "infinitely fast". That's pure BS if you look at the actual fights.



GER exists outside of time and space, which is why it has a "0" for speed. NOTORIOUS BIG will always be faster then its opponent, that's how it's power works.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 20, 2015)

Fang said:


> >literally the same inane argument in one tl ;dr for the 3rd or 4th time in a row
> >Jotaro has to be "FTL" just like Star Platinum
> >can't react to a lightspeed Stand
> >can't react to a bullet
> ...


>implying reacting to bullets or not means anything when those are just bs low ends just like
>forgetting how crusardes reacted to the sun beams of light
> i guess superman doesn't qualify as a bullet timer either
>implying just because something moves through light it can't be faster it
literally topkek


----------



## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

You can reply with more nonsensical arguments, no one cares because no one is buying it. And parroting my posting style isn't helping you either.


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## willyvereb (Jun 20, 2015)

To me neither yours or Fang's argument seems to be sticking.
Iwandum needs to work on his phrasing and wits, even if he's factually right.
Fang needs to move on with the times and don't try the exact thing for which we mock SBers nowadays.

Stand users can react to what their Stands do. That's a fact and similarly many of them can move and dodge attacks from Stands.
Also we operate by the "positive feedback" method of VS debating. We don't get into hypocritical hissy fits over the difference between high end and low end feats. There are just feats, and we take the best of them. Then apply correct scaling where neccessary.
Just because a character occasionally can't dodge an attack that usually doesn't invalidate other scenes where they did or performed something equally impressive.


----------



## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> To me neithr yours or Fang's argument seems to be sticking.
> Iwan needs to work on his phrasing and wits, even if he's factually right.
> Fang needs to move on with the times and don't try the exact thing we mock SBers nowadays.



This is literally the most inane thing you've posted in awhile.



> Stand users can react to what their Stands do.



Of course.

This is why Jotaro, Josuke and others who possess Stands that move or react at faster then light speeds suffer with slower then FTL Stands or attacks. Throughout the entire god damn series.

Or why the purpose of Stands in the databook outright tells us that the entire necessitate of fighting with Stands is to be proxy from the Stand User being directly involved as humanoid types are stronger, faster, and possess the bizarre abilities that makes JoJO what is it.

And all the glaring examples of Stand Users failing to comprehend to attacks or react to them consistently sine the early 90s from Part 3 to now with Part 8 should be magically overlooked because you have a state of an outlook of taking the upper outliers in over the lower end ones.

So yeah, it seems pretty bullshit for one to pull a bait term making a comparison with SB to me as an almost thinly veiled attempt at discrediting me. And two, ignore the consistency of Stand User failings in reactions that definitively show they are nowhere near their Stands.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 20, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> To me neither yours or Fang's argument seems to be sticking.
> Iwandum needs to work on his phrasing and wits, even if he's factually right.


Fair enough
It is most likely just too much of cancerdome debate + my way to type without thinking throughly


----------



## Regicide (Jun 20, 2015)

Well, this thread is certainly something.


----------



## Ramius (Jun 20, 2015)

So where are Stand Users supposed to be sitting at then? At least P3 Stand Users. Did they become like thousands of times slower than Joseph/Caesar/P2 characters?

Btw I actually remember in P6 the Stand Users themselves _had_ to react to Pucci's time accelerator stuff, so you could get something out of that.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2015)

From what I gather, Star wars takes except vs Giorno.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> From what I gather, Star wars takes except vs Giorno.



You'd be gathering wrong.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 20, 2015)

From what I gather Fang is pretty much either wanking Star Wars or downplaying JJBA .


----------



## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Dude took it serious, this is pure lulz .



>lulz



MusubiKazesaru said:


> You'd be gathering wrong.



Still waiting on those rebuttal arguments you kept being able to provide anyone here. Here's another dimension, let's say we magically set aside the standard rules and let the Stand Users have the same reflexes/reactions as their stands.

How does that work against Force-Users who have massively FTL reactions going by telepathy feats in hyperspace across the galaxy? Please elaborate how they save their asses.


----------



## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> From what I gather Fang is pretty much either wanking Star Wars or downplaying JJBA .



Both


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> You'd be gathering wrong.





Fang said:


> Still waiting on those rebuttal arguments you kept being able to provide anyone here. Here's another dimension, let's say we magically set aside the standard rules and let the Stand Users have the same reflexes/reactions as their stands.
> 
> How does that work against Force-Users who have massively FTL reactions going by telepathy feats in hyperspace across the galaxy? Please elaborate how they save their asses.


----------



## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

You could just read the thread, the conclusion is already obvious to everyone here which includes a fair bit of JJBA fan oriented regulars here.


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2015)

Fang said:


> You could just read the thread, the conclusion is already obvious to everyone here which includes a fair bit of JJBA fan oriented regulars here.



I have been reading the thread. Your arguments are better IMO which is why I made my original comment. The meme was pretty much making fun of the fact he's been sidestepping your arguments (no offense Musubi, just telling it how I see it)


----------



## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I have been reading the thread. Your arguments are better IMO which is why I made my original comment. The meme was pretty much making fun of the fact he's been sidestepping your arguments (no offense Musubi, just telling it how I see it)



Personally think its the opposite but eh,


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I have been reading the thread. Your arguments are better IMO which is why I made my original comment. The meme was pretty much making fun of the fact he's been sidestepping your arguments (no offense Musubi, just telling it how I see it)



He's mostly just saying that because of low ends we should ignore the high end feats and ignore how stands actually work and assume that the users have no idea what is even going on during fights because they can't even comprehend the speeds the stands are fighting at. 

There's several cases of characters reacting to stands, one explicit example is Jotaro vs Josuke where he had SP's guard bypassed and was going to be struck by CD and initiated a time stop. As we've stated, the user has to decided to use a time stop and in this case he did so because he was forced to, thus it's possible for stand users to react to stands as fast as those as otherwise they wouldn't even be able to properly fight others. The majority of stands don't run on auto-pilot and are controlled by their user and the Jotaro vs Josuke example is proof that booth Dio and Jotaro for instance can time stop before the jedi can react. 

Not every fast stand user can beat them (as range is a big problem for most of them and most don't have the hax or DC to put them down at such a range), but in their case they don't even have to deal with the distance issue or the jedi fighting back because of the time stop and can deal enough damage to win within their limit because they can react a somewhat faster than the jedi can.

Putting that aside. How well could they deal with something like Silver Chariot Requiem?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 20, 2015)

This discussion is already getting dumb
It ultimately does not matter wether stand users are ftl in reactions (they are but hey, lets pretend bs low ends take precedent because fang senpai wants this Way) or not because high tiers jedis are still faster(300 c x 80c iirc) and can paste them with tk that ignores range


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He's mostly just saying that because of low ends we should ignore the high end feats and ignore how stands actually work and assume that the users have no idea what is even going on during fights because they can't even comprehend the speeds the stands are fighting at.


From what I gathered, he was claiming that none of the humans in Jojo's have FTL reactions feats. Maybe MHS to just LS, but none of them have the neccassary reactions speed to really fuck with any of the up tier Jedi.

Before Dio or Jotaro can even send an electric signal from synapse to synapse, they will likely be mindfucked, forcefucked, etc. The exception being someone like Giorno who's stand will automatically negate shit to 0 for him, giving him the balance of neccessary threatening hax, and "reaction speed" to accomplish such.



> There's several cases of characters reacting to stands, one explicit example is Jotaro vs Josuke where he had SP's guard bypassed and was going to be struck by CD and initiated a time stop. As we've stated, the user has to decided to use a time stop and in this case he did so because he was forced to, thus it's possible for stand users to react to stands as fast as those as otherwise they wouldn't even be able to properly fight others.


Well first off I would question if the stands were going all out.

Second off do the stands have the neccassary reactions to even keep up with 300x light speed?

Actually curious.



> The majority of stands don't run on auto-pilot and are controlled by their user and the Jotaro vs Josuke example is proof that booth Dio and Jotaro for instance can time stop before the jedi can react.


Not if what I have seen about the reaction gap is true.

It be like saying Danzo can just Izanagi Law because he is generally around the same reaction speed, yet slower. Yeah Danzo has a move that can deal with Law's threat, but he'd most likely not be able to activate it.




> Putting that aside. How well could they deal with something like Silver Chariot Requiem?


only up to pt 4 with spoiled knowledge on some overly haxxed stands from later parts. But if SCR is the same as SC, then I don't see how even threatens a Jedi.


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He's mostly just saying that because of low ends we should ignore the high end feats and ignore how stands actually work and assume that the users have no idea what is even going on during fights because they can't even comprehend the speeds the stands are fighting at.



No, I didn't. Either you are willfully making things up or your memory of what I was debating is practically non-existent. I proved consistently that Stand Users do not react as fast nor have to be to control their faster Stands.



> There's several cases of characters reacting to stands, one explicit example is Jotaro vs Josuke where he had SP's guard bypassed and was going to be struck by CD and initiated a time stop.



That's not what happened, stop misconstruing events in the manga. Jotaro had enough time to stop-time through Star Platinum while Crazy Diamond was overpowering it before it could fatally hit him.



> As we've stated, the user has to decided to use a time stop and in this case he did so because he was forced to, thus it's possible for stand users to react to stands as fast as those as otherwise they wouldn't even be able to properly fight others.



Once again, wrong. Stands are called Stands because they act as guardians without explicit orders from their Stand Users when it comes to self-preservation. When Jotaro or Josuke got pissed off, they summon their Stands to attack their enemies and direct them. They don't micro-manage every single reaction, reflex, or attack.

You have exhausted this argument and claim multiple times and have never provided factual evidence to support your claims to contradict what's been observed and shown throughout the 28+ years the manga has been ongoing when it comes to Stands.



> The majority of stands don't run on auto-pilot and are controlled by their user and the Jotaro vs Josuke example is proof that booth Dio and Jotaro for instance can time stop before the jedi can react.



The majority of Stands are directed by their Stand User. That doesn't magically equate to punching at FTL speeds means the Stand User is micromanaging and coordinating every single specific attack or reaction, and I'll repeat: not once has this ever been stated in the manga in any explanation given for Stands. 



> Jotaro vs Josuke example is proof that booth Dio and Jotaro for instance can time stop before the jedi can react.



Except for the fact Force-Users have massively FTL reactions once again going by telepathic feats involving of astral projection, invasive mental attacks, and mind-control. And hyperdrive equipped ships moving across the GFFA at hundreds of millions times c.

So still no ghost of a chance of happening even if anyone here accepted the FTL bullshit for Stand User reactions. The moment it takes a synapse to fire in Jotaro or Dio's brain, Windu would already have crushed their skulls in a pictosecond.



> Not every fast stand user can beat them (as range is a big problem for most of them and most don't have the hax or DC to put them down at such a range), but in their case they don't even have to deal with the distance issue or the jedi fighting back because of the time stop and can deal enough damage to win within their limit because they can react a somewhat faster than the jedi can.



Time-stop is irrelevant for 3 reasons:

1.) Dio can't output enough energy to harm people who hit harder then him and take harder hits with Force augmentation and passive Force barriers/shielding
2.) Neither Dio or Jotaro would get the chance to use a time-stop 
3.) They have precognitive abilities so they would never let time-stoppers or any time-manipulation Stands use their powers in the first place with the only exemption of GER

Glad that's sorted with.



> Putting that aside. How well could they deal with something like Silver Chariot Requiem?



They could TK it off the planet before it did anything. And Force-Users like Windu and Yoda have total control of their bodies, minds, and souls to avoid being assimilated into the gestalt of the Force, a universal binding life energy. SCR isn't shit to them.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> From what I gathered, he was claiming that none of the humans in Jojo's have FTL reactions feats. Maybe MHS to just LS, but none of them have the neccassary reactions speed to really fuck with any of the up tier Jedi.
> 
> Before Dio or Jotaro can even send an electric signal from synapse to synapse, they will likely be mindfucked, forcefucked, etc. The exception being someone like Giorno who's stand will automatically negate shit to 0 for him, giving him the balance of neccessary threatening hax, and "reaction speed" to accomplish such.


He's claiming it, but there's several cases proving otherwise and he's just ignoring them in favor of low ends.



Dr. White said:


> Well first off I would question if the stands were going all out.
> 
> Second off do the stands have the neccassary reactions to even keep up with 300x light speed?
> 
> Actually curious.


We have a calc for Silver Chariot moving at those speeds so yeah they can move at those speed. We can't really say whether stands are fighting all out or whatever other than when it's explicitly stated.



Dr. White said:


> Not if what I have seen about the reaction gap is true.
> 
> It be like saying Danzo can just Izanagi Law because he is generally around the same reaction speed, yet slower. Yeah Danzo has a move that can deal with Law's threat, but he'd most likely not be able to activate it.


Unless you want to hand wave my various points, then the stand users are faster in reactions, but only by and amount that will let those like Jotaro and Dio for instance be able to do something before getting mindraped due to their specific ability.



Dr. White said:


> only up to pt 4 with spoiled knowledge on some overly haxxed stands from later parts. But if SCR is the same as SC, then I don't see how even threatens a Jedi.



SCR is absolutely nothing like SC and runs on its own vague will.

To quote the OBD page



> Silver Chariot Requiem can't be harmed by attacks due to it being a projection of your very soul meaning all abilities used on it will be directed right back to the user. When activated by default this stand sends all beings into a 8 hour sleep where their souls are switched with the nearest being to them, while the person's body may change, their powers remain with them, however if one were to lose their body during this time, when the effects were reversed they would die along with the soul within their body, unless the body is healed of course. It keeps moving forward for eternity (ala Juggernaut) The final and most terrible ability of Silver Chariot Requiem is that it forces all beings to evolve into disturbing beasts of a possible future.


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2015)

I was about to reply, then I saw Fang's response. I agree with pretty much everything Fang said, especially about the Jotaro, Jusuke thing. He noticed that his stand couldn't physically keep up, and adjusted.

Aren't there other examples of people not being as fast as their stands suggest? Like Darbu being able to pull Parlor tricks on multiple stand users, despite them being LS in reactions?


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## Iwandesu (Jun 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I was about to reply, then I saw Fang's response. I agree with pretty much everything Fang said, especially about the Jotaro, Jusuke thing. He noticed that his stand couldn't physically keep up, and adjusted.
> 
> Aren't there other examples of people not being as fast as their stands suggest? Like Darbu being able to pull Parlor tricks on multiple stand users, despite them being LS in reactions?


darb is a gambler and an specialist in tricks to distract his victims from himself so he can pull his fast fingers into work 
when jotaro actually payed atention on his movements he was completely corned 
hell if anything nothing stops darby as a stand user to be able of also move at least his fingers at ftl speeds
so no he is actually not an example of said situations


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

In D'arby's case he even had Star Platinum watching as well.


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## manidk (Jun 20, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Heavens Door is a odd stand.
> It could blitz Highway star too. Its just  a oddly fast B class stand.
> Same thing for Killer queen via reacting to stands it has no business reacting too. The hand dodged a CD attack too.
> 
> Maybe some B class stands are low lightspeed.



It wasn't Heaven's Door that did the blitzing, though.  It's clearly Rohan's own arm.  We know that Heaven's Door has a humanoid form, and that wasn't it.


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

manidk said:


> It wasn't Heaven's Door that did the blitzing, though.  It's clearly Rohan's own arm.  We know that Heaven's Door has a humanoid form, and that wasn't it.



Thats just more proof of FTL reactions for stand users then.

B clas stand's and Stand users have reacted to A class stand's speeds soooo eh.


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## manidk (Jun 20, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Thats just more proof of FTL reactions for stand users then.
> 
> B clas stand's and Stand users have reacted to A class stand's speeds soooo eh.



It's really the only instance I could think of off the top of my head.

I'm really just posting it to see where the argument goes from here.

Araki is known to do some weirdly inconsistent shit after all.


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

manidk said:


> It's really the only instance I could think of off the top of my head.
> 
> I'm really just posting it to see where the argument goes from here.
> 
> Araki is known to do some weirdly inconsistent shit after all.



TBH I think it was just rohan's power or some shit.

He was writing manga hella fast too. He did this to Boy 2 man also IIRC. Araki just throws in random powers that are used like twice.

Lookin at you Star finger and SC's armor blast


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Well he move his arm faster than Crazy Diamond's. To be honest you could possibly make an argument that stand user's can even react as fast as the fastest stands as a way for their slower ones to effectively combat faster ones. That could be pushing it though.


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Well he move his arm faster than Crazy Diamond's. To be honest you could possibly make an argument that stand user's can even react as fast as the fastest stands as a way for their slower ones to effectively combat faster ones. That could be pushing it though.



Thats were I draw the line. I honestly think this was a one time power for rohan until he became a ally.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Thats were I draw the line. I honestly think this was a one time power for rohan until he became a ally.



That would be pushing it, I agree. Though it does kind of work for all of the inconsistencies. Or it might just be that reactions apply to stands above their stats. I'd rather not dwell on that bag of warms though.


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> That would be pushing it, I agree. Though it does kind of work for all of the inconsistencies. Or it might just be that reactions apply to stands above their stats. I'd rather not dwell on that bag of warms though.



Stand users reacting isn't a inconsistency. But Rohan's hand moving faster then CD is probably just a power for him. I mean the dude writes pretty quick


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Stand users reacting isn't a inconsistency. But Rohan's hand moving faster then CD is probably just a power for him. I mean the dude writes pretty quick



He also has the feat of consistently meeting his deadline during the universe ending Made in Heaven antics 

Rohan is awesome.


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> He also has the feat of consistently meeting his deadline during the universe ending Made in Heaven antics
> 
> Rohan is awesome.



There should totally be a real Pink Dark Boy manga


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Heavens Door is a odd stand.
> It could blitz Highway star too. Its just  a oddly fast B class stand.
> Same thing for Killer queen via reacting to stands it has no business reacting too. The hand dodged a CD attack too.
> 
> Maybe some B class stands are low lightspeed.



Your knowledge of Stand rankings is awful. Act III has a B rank in speed in Part 4 and a C rank in Part 5,and a disabled one-handed KQ smacked it down despite Kira being literally handicapped with no effort. 

"Oddly fast"

Stands > Stand Users.


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## Venice (Jun 20, 2015)

JJBA wins this one.


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## Haro (Jun 20, 2015)

Fang said:


> Your knowledge of Stand rankings is awful. Act III has a B rank in speed in Part 4 and a C rank in Part 5,and a disabled one-handed KQ smacked it down despite Kira being literally handicapped with no effort.
> 
> "Oddly fast"
> 
> Stands > Stand Users.



Guess it blitzing Crazy Diamond just never happened. Also if you kept on reading we kind of agreed on its just a power for rohan.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

In this case at least it is, but where does that put Rohan now?


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## TheForgottenPen (Jun 20, 2015)

Venice said:


> JJBA wins this one.



Wouldn't be to sure about that, champ


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

You mean the fact your claiming that Rohan is faster then his own Stand or Josuke's? No one is agreeing to that.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

TheForgottenPen said:


> Wouldn't be to sure about that, champ



Star Wars has some new broken universals now and can resist time stops, time erases, time acceleration, and can get through Love Train, and so on?


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

Star Wars has telepaths with high level mental control that can beat most of the Stand Users before they can do anything even with their broken abilities. But go ahead, strawman more.


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2015)

I don't accept that as conclusive proof for many reasons:
- As others have mentioned it is most likely an inconsistency explained by Araki emphasizing the speed of Rohan's hand, and his ability to draw things extremely quickly within his small villain arc, losing all relevance after.

- IIRC Josuke was never going all out against the humans not named Kira, or RHCP. If Josuke was going all out (ala similar to his high end potential) there is no way I would accept Rohan even perceiving the smile Josuke would make before he lopped his head off. 

Jedi Hax/Reactions too stronk here. 

Like Stand users have trouble dealing with other stand users. Even bloodlusted stand users have lost or failed, even with extremely favorable conditions like the water hand, the Hawk vs Iggy, Death 13, The Hand using teleportation yet still failing to catch up to RHCP, etc. If the Jedi are above peak human in every sense of the word, have their force/jedi powers, and the supossed reaction/speed advantage, they are going to win.

This is like Law/Mingo vs Bleach all over again


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## manidk (Jun 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> - IIRC Josuke was never going all out against the humans not named Kira, or RHCP. If Josuke was going all out (ala similar to his high end potential) there is no way I would accept Rohan even perceiving the smile Josuke would make before he lopped his head off.



Rohan had insulted Josuke's hair multiple times before this occurred.

The rest of your post is well and good, but Josuke was definitely bloodlusted.  He was literally blinded by anger to the point where Heaven's Door didn't bother him.

Best to just say inconsistency.


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

According to Musubi's logic, NOTORIOUS BIG's Stand User has "infinite" speed/reflex reaction time. Because you know...that makes sense.


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2015)

manidk said:


> Rohan had insulted Josuke's hair multiple times before this occurred.
> 
> The rest of your post is well and good, but Josuke was definitely bloodlusted.  He was literally blinded by anger to the point where Heaven's Door didn't bother him.
> 
> Best to just say inconsistency.



I understand that Josuke's hair is his only care, and he can become a bit malevolent when it's made fun of, but I don't see Josuke killing someone even if they pissed in his hair.

Although I get your point about performance because a mad Josuke is still serious.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 20, 2015)

Fang said:


> According to Musubi's logic, NOTORIOUS BIG's Stand User has "infinite" speed/reflex reaction time. Because you know...that makes sense.



I never stated as such, you're the one bringing up that particular stand.


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## Fang (Jun 20, 2015)

"According to Musubi's logic"

Follow along


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## manidk (Jun 21, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I understand that Josuke's hair is his only care, and he can become a bit malevolent when it's made fun of, but I don't see Josuke killing someone even if they pissed in his hair.
> 
> Although I get your point about performance because a mad Josuke is still serious.



Well, he did transmute Jotaro's hat with CD's punch.  Woulda been his face otherwise, and we see how Angelo turned out.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 21, 2015)

Because let's just hand wave everything else and chalk it up everything as inconsistencies because you suddenly want to question the scaling we've always used.


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## Fang (Jun 21, 2015)

>We
Whose we? And that's not how scaling works. But getting more directly back on track, how is time powers going to work when the Stand User is being mind-fucked before they can react to even attack the Jedi in the first place?


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## Iwandesu (Jun 21, 2015)

notorious b.i.g is an automatic stand that has absolutely no bearing with its user and no one ever said otherwise
to say anyone claimed anything regarding to it means you either don't know anything about the stand or is blatantly lying to try to prove your point


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## Fang (Jun 21, 2015)

How cute

So the point went over your head too, that's good to know


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 21, 2015)

Wasn't Notorious B.I.G. seriously down syndrome level ?(Never read this part of JJBA, so all I know is what people have told me) 

Like he will get distracted time enough for you to fuck him up ?


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## Matta Clatta (Jun 21, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Wasn't Notorious B.I.G. seriously down syndrome level ?(Never read this part of JJBA, so all I know is what people have told me)
> 
> Like he will get distracted time enough for you to fuck him up ?



Irrelevant its an automatic stand that instantly attacks anything that moves faster than it. Its not controlled by its user its controlled by its ability although it does have some intelligence.
I don't think any jedi is gonna be capable of stopping it maybe their force abilities could keep it away from them but ultimately they have no way of destroying BIG


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## Fang (Jun 21, 2015)

They don't need to destroy something that can be easily tricked like BIG.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 21, 2015)

they could very well just make something move very fast into the ocean direction or wathever
even if there is no ocean because of the place where the fight takes place (i assume it is on the standard rosat didn't check) they could just push big away with force barries/puzzle it with different forces flows and then sub-atomize it or wathever.
i mean it never regenerated from such things iirc


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 21, 2015)

Or they could just mindfuck it, since it's so dumb ;


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## Haro (Jun 21, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Or they could just mindfuck it, since it's so dumb ;



Does big even have a mind?


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## Iwandesu (Jun 21, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Or they could just mindfuck it, since it's so dumb ;


Trying to mindfuck Big is like trying to mindfuck a machine 
you aint doing it unless you are a rw or mental hacker


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## Fang (Jun 21, 2015)

All Stands are projections of psychic and mental energy, its not remotely like a machine at all.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 21, 2015)

automatic stands might be projetions of users will but they themselves have displayed no will nor mind
even more big that only exists after his user is already dead
you can't mindfuck something that has no mind and just does something because it was "programed" this way


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## Fang (Jun 21, 2015)

They are literally psychic and mental energy, of course they can mind-trick or mind-fuck it. Force-Users have been known to mind-trick and effect illusions on technology and droids even if your inane claim comparing automatic Stands to machines was bought.

Try again.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 21, 2015)

Fang said:


> They are literally psychic and mental energy, of course they can mind-trick or mind-fuck it.


just because they are physic and mental energy doesn't mean you can mindfuck it when it has no mind to be mindfuck
you realise that not even its users who are theorically the source of said mental energy can control them, right ?


> Force-Users have been known to mind-trick and effect illusions on technology and droids even if your inane claim comparing automatic Stands to machines was bought.


so they can do mental hacking ?
kay this solves the question


> Try again.


i'm not trying anything i just wasn't aware jedis could do mental hacking


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## AgentAAA (Jun 21, 2015)

Fang said:


> They are literally psychic and mental energy, of course they can mind-trick or mind-fuck it. Force-Users have been known to mind-trick and effect illusions on technology and droids even if your inane claim comparing automatic Stands to machines was bought.
> 
> Try again.



wait what?
i'm dubious on going with this when it's not remotely an intelligence in the first place.
Stands are barely above "Chair" in terms of "can mindfuck"
not to mention I'd imagine even if one could given the alien nature of such a mind you'd have to do it in a different manner than normal I.E needing to develop the technique to do so.


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## Fang (Jun 21, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> just because they are physic and mental energy doesn't mean you can mindfuck it when it has no mind to be mindfuck



Force-Users have mentally communicated and used mind-tricks and illusions on inanimate objects and technology, the premise is no different then with a Stand.



> you realise that not even its users who are theorically the source of said mental energy can control them, right ?



Notorious BIG has enough of self-awareness to continually set after its target after its Stand User died. Hell when it absorbed or infected a person, it began to further increase its intelligence and even displayed self-awareness.

That is how sentience works.



> so they can do mental hacking ?
> kay this solves the question



Stands are typically semi-sentient personas of a Stand User's mental and psychic energy, of course they can. And mental hacking is offensively using one's psychic ability through telepathy to exert control, influence, or manipulation on a target. 



> i'm not trying anything i just wasn't aware jedis could do mental hacking



Since when haven't Force-Users mind-fucked beings or entities? Also I just rechecked the entire fight with NOTORIOUS BIG vs Giorno's crew, and when it infected Giogio, it was using his hand to write out its mental thoughts. So it CLEARLY has a mind.



AgentAAA said:


> wait what?
> i'm dubious on going with this when it's not remotely an intelligence in the first place.
> Stands are barely above "Chair" in terms of "can mindfuck"



Incorrect.



> not to mention I'd imagine even if one could given the alien nature of such a mind you'd have to do it in a different manner than normal I.E needing to develop the technique to do so.



That's not how telepathy works. Almost all of the Stands save the ones based off of animals or objects like the Rat Stand Users in Part 4 or the gestalt human/plankton user in Part 6 are echoes of human Stand Users's mental and psychic energies.

A mind is a mind. This argument is as inane as a certain poster claiming Logia Devil Fruit Users are technically "intangible" so their minds can't be manipulated.


----------



## willyvereb (Jun 22, 2015)

Jedi can mindfuck men, aliens, creatures, machines or even spiritual entities. Some can do it even to more abstract beings.
So I can't see why BIG's classification is an issue.

The most severe issue are the World and Star Platinum in Part 3. Jedi can't do much against time stops and unlike what Fang is trying to argue these will be triggered well in time.
In Part 4, I dunno if anyone but Jotaro can have an answer which is more immediate than Jedi mind tricks. Maybe if Kira tolds them his secret to have Another One Bite The Dust? Meh, too slow.

Part 5-6, been a while. GER and Stairway to Heaven are obvious impassable blocks but aside from that I don't know anyone can stand in their way.

What is certain that aside from GER's ability, no one in JJBA has the power to resist Jedi mind powers.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 22, 2015)

SCR could probably be a bit of trouble as well (do they actually have soul feats on that level for those characters?) and Love Train should protect Funny even if he can't really do anything to win. Also Crimson King obviously doesn't have the output that Star Platinum and The World do but he could possibly get a good shot in via Time Erase positioning.


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## willyvereb (Jun 22, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> SCR could probably be a bit of trouble as well (do they actually have soul feats on that level for those characters?) and Love Train should protect Funny even if he can't really do anything to win. Also Crimson King obviously doesn't have the output that Star Platinum and The World do but he could possibly get a good shot in via Time Erase positioning.


Yeah, actually SCR could work on the Jedi, too.
Also I take it back, SCR could resist Jedi mindfuck, too.
The question is for how long? IIRC, SCR's soulfucking isn't anywhere instant and it's even more true to its other abilities.

As for King Crimson, nah. The problem is that his use of abilities is reactive. He sees an attack and uses KC to erase time to avoid it. Whether he can attack during this time is also rather questionable. But it doesn't matter because his style is to explicitly wait for the attack, thus he's wide open for a mental first strike.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 22, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> and unlike what Fang is trying to argue these will be triggered well in time.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 22, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Yeah, actually SCR could work on the Jedi, too.
> Also I take it back, SCR could resist Jedi mindfuck, too.
> The question is for how long? IIRC, SCR's soulfucking isn't anywhere instant and it's even more true to its other abilities.
> 
> As for King Crimson, nah. The problem is that his use of abilities is reactive. He sees an attack and uses KC to erase time to avoid it. Whether he can attack during this time is also rather questionable. But it doesn't matter because his style is to explicitly wait for the attack, thus he's wide open for a mental first strike.



SCR' ability to reflect attacks on it against the attackers' soul should keep them at bay while it works its magic and while none of them are stupid it'd take some time for them to realize its weak point. I don't actually remember the fight perfectly but wasn't the first thing or so SCR did was put everyone to sleep for 8 hours and soul swap them all?

It doesn't have to be reactive, his time erase and precog are seperate powers as a special distinction due to his split personalities (thought Diavolo is in control of both while Doppio only has Epitaph mostly). It's just that they usually go hand in hand. He can't attack during the time erase though, as anything that actually happens during that time never happened after it's done. It's mostly used for avoiding things and getting himself into position.


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## Fang (Jun 22, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> The most severe issue are the World and Star Platinum in Part 3. Jedi can't do much against time stops and unlike what Fang is trying to argue these will be triggered well in time.



There is no chance of Dio or Jotaro activating a time-stop before they get mind-fucked. Same with Diavolo or Kira using their own time powers, or even Pucchi for that matter. The only solid 100% guarantee of the Jedi losing to anything is GER.

Silver Chariot Requiem soul-feats are literally nothing special in Star Wars. Sidious is already above the likes of certain Sith Lords or Jedi Masters even before his Dark Empire/Reborn power up that can mind-fuck or soul-fuck entire planets. Lower tier Force-Users have been known to manipulate souls just fine.

Windu and Yoda are comparable to him.

Its not working.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 22, 2015)

Really they have feats of planetary range soul fucks and resisting them as well? Can you state when they did this? I mean Jedi stuff isn't the same as Sith stuff. Even if they're comparable they don't have the same move set and it's not like Sidious did that in battle against them.


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## Qinglong (Jun 22, 2015)

EU Sidious prior to Dark Empire, has also mindfucked billions on Coruscant to hide his Super Star Destroyer


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## Fang (Jun 22, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Really they have feats of planetary range soul fucks and resisting them as well? Can you state when they did this? I mean Jedi stuff isn't the same as Sith stuff. Even if they're comparable they don't have the same move set and it's not like Sidious did that in battle against them.



Of course they have feats. Force powers comse to Force-Users in a universal set:

- telepathy
- precognition
- clairvoyance
- astral projections
- telekinesis

Yoda and Windu are comparable to Sidious. Sidious is superior to ancient Sith like Darth Nihilus or Darth Malak. And resistance to soul/astral attacks doesn't mean they can perform soul-fuckery. So even though Yoda and Windu don't have the ability to use Force Drain, they should be able to resist it and similar attacks or techniques like it.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 22, 2015)

Anakin managed to  the life draining effects of the 

someone like Yoda should know the technique to do so as well


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 22, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Really they have feats of planetary range soul fucks and resisting them as well? Can you state when they did this? I mean Jedi stuff isn't the same as Sith stuff. Even if they're comparable they don't have the same move set and it's not like Sidious did that in battle against them.



Wouldn't Luke's mind meld feat from Shadows of Mindor count as well? I think there's another feat as well. Can't remember from which source though.


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## Fang (Jun 22, 2015)

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, mein circle.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 22, 2015)

Hmm

Meetra Surik and Mira on Nar Shadaa 

Obi-Wan sensing the death of planet Alderaan when Luke didn't even feel it

Yoda during the Clone Wars after Order 66

Not so much soul fuckery as so much as to say that it gives a sense of their telepathic range and how much they can take 

An average Jedi likely couldn't take such mental torture


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jun 22, 2015)

So they stop at Za Warudo(Wryyyyyyyyy) and Star Platinum ?


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## Fang (Jun 22, 2015)

>so they stop at people they beat

No


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## tonpa (Jun 22, 2015)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> So they stop at Za Warudo(Wryyyyyyyyy) and Star Platinum ?



Yea pretty much. They lose to quality.


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

Citation required

They out-react and are faster then Dio and Jotaro, so time-stops aren't happening.


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## tonpa (Jun 23, 2015)

Fang said:


> Citation required
> 
> They out-react and are faster then Dio and Jotaro, so time-stops aren't happening.



Everyone faster than light thought wise. How are they going to run away from time itself?


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 23, 2015)

The jedi are faster so the mindfuck/soulfuck happens first

simple as that


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

>Everyone faster than light thought wise.

I don't understand this type of meme posting.


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## tonpa (Jun 23, 2015)

Fang said:


> >Everyone faster than light thought wise.
> 
> I don't understand this type of meme posting.



Same as dodging something that is faster than light, its fiction. They both happen and the mind fuck takes a few seconds to become effective. That gives plenty of time for them to you know time stop and then just punch.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 23, 2015)

tonpa said:


> Same as dodging something that is faster than light, its fiction. They both happen and the mind fuck takes a few seconds to become effective. That gives plenty of time for them to you know time stop and then just punch.



where are you getting this?


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

tonpa said:


> Same as dodging something that is faster than light, its fiction. They both happen and the mind fuck takes a few seconds to become effective. That gives plenty of time for them to you know time stop and then just punch.



How do you dodge a mind-fuck?


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## tonpa (Jun 23, 2015)

Fang said:


> How do you dodge a mind-fuck?



How do  you doge time stop?


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 23, 2015)

why would they need to dodge in the first place?


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

tonpa said:


> How do  you doge time stop?



>answering a question with a question

Time-stop is irrelevant, because they aren't able to react fast enough. And mind-fucking is instantaneous from Force-Users.


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## tonpa (Jun 23, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> why would they need to dodge in the first place?



Or else they are frozen. Also does mindfuckery move at faster than light speed? Can I see some evidence of that?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 23, 2015)

We're just going in circles. Let's just agree that they lose.


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

You mean the hypersonic Dio is going to out-react psychics who can keep pace with their senses and reactions to mind-fuck people on hyperdrive equipped ships traveling at hundreds of millions of times the speed of light?

Yeah of course that'll happen.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 23, 2015)

tonpa said:


> Or else they are frozen.



> the jedi are faster
> their attack happens first

it's really that simple



> Also does mindfuckery move at faster than light speed?



fictional does



> Can I see some evidence of that?



look above


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2015)

tonpa said:


> Everyone faster than light thought wise. How are they going to run away from time itself?


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## willyvereb (Jun 23, 2015)

It's kind of true, given how many people can put up a fight against Jotaro and Polnaleff's Stands in Part 3, for example.


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

Majority of those fights were situational, Willy. They weren't conventional punch-feasts like Dio vs Jotaro.

Why this thread has gone over 200 posts is beyond me.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 23, 2015)

Mostly because you're stubborn


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

Mostly because I know more about JoJo then you do, my new friend.


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> It's kind of true, given how many people can put up a fight against Jotaro and Polnaleff's Stands in Part 3, for example.



Using Jojo's to prove how Jojo's is fast enough to compete?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 23, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Using Jojo's to prove how Jojo's is fast enough to compete?



Because they're able to react to his FTL stand, such as Rubber Soul with Yellow Temperance.


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Because they're able to react to his FTL stand, such as Rubber Soul with Yellow Temperance.



Ok, but what does that have to do with the people in Star Wars who are even faster than that?

That's like using Hypersonic feats from Early Shippuden to try and tell me how Pein Arc Deva Path is going to be tagging someone like Gowther or Merlin before they mindfuck/spacefuck him (respectively). Or how SS Tousen is going to get his Bankai off on someone like Law.

Also wasn't established that the Stand user as to initiate the Time Stop?


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

>Yellow Temperance
>FTL

Nice joke.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 23, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Ok, but what does that have to do with the people in Star Wars who are even faster than that?
> 
> That's like using Hypersonic feats from Early Shippuden to try and tell me how Pein Arc Deva Path is going to be tagging someone like Gowther or Merlin before they mindfuck/spacefuck him (respectively). Or how SS Tousen is going to get his Bankai off on someone like Law.
> 
> Also wasn't established that the Stand user as to initiate the Time Stop?



The point is that the stand users can react to stands, otherwise a large number of fights wouldn't make sense. In other words if they can react to those stands that are faster than the SW characters, they can use their time stops. That's what's being argued here. I'm not sure about Merlin in that case, but Gowther actually needs to land a hit with his arrows or something of the sort doesn't he (I am a few chapters behind)? Pein is fast enough that he won't be blitzed by Gowther so he could attempt some sort of counterattack.




Fang said:


> >Yellow Temperance
> >FTL
> 
> Nice joke.



I never said it was per say, but one way or another it was able to block Star Platinum.


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2015)

You are repeating the same tired out regurgitated arguments that have been rebutted. Give up. Yellow Temperance is not FTL and neither is Jotaro.


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> The point is that the stand users can react to stands, otherwise a large number of fights wouldn't make sense. In other words if they can react to those stands that are faster than the SW characters, they can use their time stops. That's what's being argued here. I'm not sure about Merlin in that case, but Gowther actually needs to land a hit with his arrows or something of the sort doesn't he (I am a few chapters behind)? Pein is fast enough that he won't be blitzed by Gowther so he could attempt some sort of counterattack.


Even if sometimes, some stand users can react to some stands, doesn't mean said stand users are equal to top tier stand speed. (tongue twister)

Merlin would lol teleport Pein Boy, and so would Gowther. Gowther was able to tag someone like Diane in CqC, tagged Galan without him noticing, and was able to essentially match Dreyfus speed in a duel to land their attacks, oh yeah and there is also getting withing few feet of Grey Hendrickson's backside, before he was countered.

Pein isn't going to be doing much, and he sure as hell isn't getitng his attack of first. Which is the point.

Whoever lands their attack first wins with hax like this. So speed and reactions are going to be a big factor in determining a winner.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 23, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> The point is that the stand users can react to stands, otherwise a large number of fights wouldn't make sense. In other words if they can react to those stands that are faster than the SW characters, they can use their time stops.



there are stands that are faster than top tier SW force users?

correct me if I'm wrong but the highest speed for stands was tripple digit c


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## MAPSK (Jun 23, 2015)

This thread is quickly reaching maximum retardation.


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## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2015)

I secretly hate Star Wars. LOTR master race.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jun 23, 2015)

I'm just going to lock this before we get a repeat of earlier.


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