# Asura's Wrath Vs. Dragonball Z



## BeamKatanaBoy (May 20, 2012)

The title just says it, its a planet destructive clash against two mighty forces recently compared. For beginners we should go with the main protagonist of each series:
Asura- Asura's Wrath (Includes all forms even when he loses his arms lol)
Goku- Dragonball Z (All Saiyan levels including fusions and transformations)

BEGIN!:


----------



## OS (May 20, 2012)

The whole DBZ series is destroyed. Now go die in a hole


----------



## PakiSama (May 20, 2012)

dude i should have warned u this thread has been done before and dbz lost lost bad try another thread dude


----------



## Gomu (May 20, 2012)

One punch. GG.


----------



## Gone (May 20, 2012)

Been done a bunch of times. DBZ loses. Except in the one thread in which anime feats/filler were allowed, in which case Im pretty sure DBZ won.


----------



## All Star Rogue (May 20, 2012)

The number of times this fight will be done is surely well over eight thousand, maybe even nine.

... Man that joke made me feel bad.


----------



## Gomu (May 20, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Been done a bunch of times. DBZ loses. Except in the one thread in which anime feats/filler were allowed, in which case Im pretty sure DBZ won.



Nah there were too many fallacies in the anime fillers one. Though you may be right. I didn't really care either way. I think someone said that Kid Buu won it for him because he destroyed the galaxy in an arc of light?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2012)

What do they have that can kill Buu again? I've played the game, nothing that anyone has done has put them into 'I can come back from atomization' Buu.


----------



## PakiSama (May 20, 2012)

how is there still people responding to this thread


----------



## OS (May 20, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What do they have that can kill Buu again? I've played the game, nothing that anyone has done has put them into 'I can come back from atomization' Buu.


Then you haven't played the DLCs


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Then you haven't played the DLCs


Haven't played, but I have watched them.


----------



## OS (May 21, 2012)

Then you would see Asura blow up stars and Chakra shooting FTL beams that shit on planets and stars.


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

That was filler you jackass. Asura has tanked more than a star levels worth of force. And Buu only has high-end planet destroying feats.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (May 21, 2012)

Buu's regen is a NLF. If he was destroyed by planet busting beams then star level punches can do the same.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (May 21, 2012)

^The Fuck is this shit?


----------



## PakiSama (May 21, 2012)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> ^The Fuck is this shit?


Told you dude


----------



## cnorwood (May 21, 2012)

i say the next dupe whos first thread is a dragonball thread gets banned


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

Darthgrim said:


> Buu's regen is a NLF. If he was destroyed by planet busting beams then star level punches can do the same.



Pressure punches are enough. Buu taking the full brunt of Asura's punch would be overkill.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (May 21, 2012)

Haunted Shores said:


> Which Buu won't have to do when he teleports inside Asura's head and blows it up from inside.




I understand that you may have gotten your knowledge of human anatomy by running around inside Titans in GoW, but for normal people (Asura) they have stuff like a brain in the way. On that note feats for Buu teleporting into a solid substance.


----------



## Ice (May 21, 2012)

Darthgrim said:


> I understand that you may have gotten your knowledge of human anatomy by running around inside Titans in GoW, but for normal people (Asura) they have stuff like a brain in the way. On that note feats for Buu teleporting into a solid substance.



DBZ fans.


----------



## Zeno (May 21, 2012)

Darthgrim said:


> Buu's regen is a NLF. If he was destroyed by planet busting beams then star level punches can do the same.



This is bullshit.



Gomu said:


> Pressure punches are enough. Buu taking the full brunt of Asura's punch would be overkill.



And this is bullshit.


----------



## Gone (May 21, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Nah there were too many fallacies in the anime fillers one. Though you may be right. I didn't really care either way. I think someone said that Kid Buu won it for him because he destroyed the galaxy in an arc of light?



I think Buus galaxy bust was just a really bad dub translation. The reason (IMO) filler DBZ won was because of some OP powerscaling. King Vageta for instance had a multiplanet bust, and he gets one shotted by Frieza, who gets one shotted by Gohan in GT.

There are other examples too, Cell holding off an asteroid casually, etc. Honestly the DBZ anime is the reason so many people have a skewed idea of Dragon Balls powerlevel.


----------



## I3igAl (May 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> I think Buus galaxy bust was just a really bad dub translation. The reason (IMO) filler DBZ won was because of some OP powerscaling. King Vageta for instance had a multiplanet bust, and he gets one shotted by Frieza, who gets one shotted by Gohan in GT.
> 
> There are other examples too, Cell holding off an asteroid casually, etc. Honestly the DBZ anime is the reason so many people have a skewed idea of Dragon Balls powerlevel.



A deciding factor also was FTL combat in the Cooler movie.


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> I think Buus galaxy bust was just a really bad dub translation. The reason (IMO) filler DBZ won was because of some OP powerscaling. King Vageta for instance had a multiplanet bust, and he gets one shotted by Frieza, who gets one shotted by Gohan in GT.
> 
> There are other examples too, Cell holding off an asteroid casually, etc. Honestly the DBZ anime is the reason so many people have a skewed idea of Dragon Balls powerlevel.



That's a lot more reasonable too. I though that SS4 Gogeta would be FTL or something. Goku in his base already had a Realitivistc feat so I was thinking wtf? But if the Powerscaling would be true, he'd definitely be higher than what they got for him in-profile.


----------



## Shoddragon (May 21, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> This is bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> And this is bullshit.




super buu was being horrifically injured by chou gohan's punches and kicks.

I don't see why someone far beyond chou gohan would have a problem putting down the various buus.


----------



## PakiSama (May 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> I think Buus galaxy bust was just a really bad dub translation. The reason (IMO) filler DBZ won was because of some OP powerscaling. King Vageta for instance had a multiplanet bust, and he gets one shotted by Frieza, who gets one shotted by Gohan in GT.
> 
> There are other examples too, Cell holding off an asteroid casually, etc. Honestly the DBZ anime is the reason so many people have a skewed idea of Dragon Balls powerlevel.


 I agree DBZ is bullshit yes but most of the feats are with power scaling and like u said the anime exagerates


----------



## Shoddragon (May 21, 2012)

the anime is terrible to try powerscaling off of.

in one scene you have someone like vegeta casually blowing up planets, freeza casually surviving namek's destruction.... just floating in space like it did nothing to him. then you have goku arcs later crying because elephants are walking over his hand.


----------



## BlazeRON D' Zod (May 21, 2012)

Either EoS Asura or Chakravartin will have an easy time blitzing and decimating the whole Drangonball cast.


----------



## Gone (May 21, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> the anime is terrible to try powerscaling off of.
> 
> in one scene you have someone like vegeta casually blowing up planets, freeza casually surviving namek's destruction.... just floating in space like it did nothing to him. then you have goku arcs later crying because elephants are walking over his hand.



Thats pretty blatantly comic relief though


----------



## Shoddragon (May 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Thats pretty blatantly comic relief though



kinda sorta?

it happens a lot tho :/.


----------



## Zeno (May 21, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> super buu was being horrifically injured by chou gohan's punches and kicks.
> 
> I don't see why someone far beyond chou gohan would have a problem putting down the various buus.



Please explain to me how punches would eventually kill Buu. He has shown many times the ability to be unaffected by mere punches, maybe he was just in a sort of fighting phase when he fought hand to hand.


----------



## PakiSama (May 21, 2012)

Some one end this thread


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 21, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Please explain to me how punches would eventually kill Buu. He has shown many times the ability to be unaffected by mere punches, maybe he was just in a sort of fighting phase when he fought hand to hand.


Define no-limits fallacy.


I3igAl said:


> A deciding factor also was FTL combat in the Cooler movie.


Movies are non-canon to the anime. Although there is the near-light piccolo kamehara in the anime, which would give faster anime DBZ methinks.


Ryjacork said:


> I think Buus galaxy bust was just a really bad dub translation. The reason (IMO) filler DBZ won was because of some OP powerscaling. King Vageta for instance had a multiplanet bust, and he gets one shotted by Frieza, who gets one shotted by Gohan in GT.
> 
> There are other examples too, Cell holding off an asteroid casually, etc. Honestly the DBZ anime is the reason so many people have a skewed idea of Dragon Balls powerlevel.


Manga Buu has a top-end planetbuster as well though, so that isn't really an upgrade.


----------



## DarkLordDragon (May 21, 2012)

Correct me, but didn't Chakravartin was the one who created Ashura's world universe, with all its stars, galaxies...etc In the last battle, I thought Chakravartin could stop time, can anyone verify that?


----------



## Gone (May 21, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Manga Buu has a top-end planetbuster as well though, so that isn't really an upgrade.



Considering compared to Buu King Vageta was shit, I think its an upgrade.


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

DarkLordDragon said:


> Correct me, but didn't Chakravartin was the one who created Ashura's world universe, with all its stars, galaxies...etc In the last battle, I thought Chakravartin could stop time, can anyone verify that?



Yes. He can. Asura reacted out of it as well.


----------



## Shoddragon (May 21, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Please explain to me how punches would eventually kill Buu. *He has shown many times the ability to be unaffected by mere punches*, maybe he was just in a sort of fighting phase when he fought hand to hand.




*Spoiler*: __ 













you get the idea.



a brief, purely physical beatdown had buu pretty badly bruised over his mid body up to his face, bleeding a bit and such.

if gohan can do that to him over the span of a few seconds what do you think someone like max power asura or chakravartin is going to do?


----------



## DarkLordDragon (May 21, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Yes. He can. Asura reacted out of it as well.



TBH I dont see how they can defeat someone Chakravartin failed to defeat!


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Considering compared to Buu King Vageta was shit, I think its an upgrade.



Not really, just because someone is stronger doesn't mean you can quantify how much stronger, so it doesn't really make any difference, at least for battledome purposes. It would make a difference if we saw stronger feats later on though.


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Not really, just because someone is stronger doesn't mean you can quantify how much stronger, so it doesn't really make any difference, at least for battledome purposes. It would make a difference if we saw stronger feats later on though.



I agree with what ya saying Jet. In this case however, Asura wins by going by calculation of Asura's feats and various showings from the game itself. Otherwise Filler feats are filler.


----------



## Gone (May 21, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Not really, just because someone is stronger doesn't mean you can quantify how much stronger, so it doesn't really make any difference, at least for battledome purposes. It would make a difference if we saw stronger feats later on though.



Well like I said Frieza was able to one shot King Vegeta in his weakest form, and in one of the movies Gohan was able to one shot Frieza pretty casually. In fact Frieza survived a planet blowing up in his face, so what does that say that Gohan could one shot him with a punch?

In another movie two aliens that were said to be as powerful as Frieza were getting their asses kicked by the Trunks and Gohan (as kids), who are miles behind their fathers.

The videos shitty quality, but heres KVs planet bust. Keep in mind hes way behind even SSJ1.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybod9EleH9E[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Xiammes (May 21, 2012)

Its still unquantifiable, until someone finds the magic formula to figure out how power levels work, all's it is unquantifiable.


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

There is no formula. Even Toriyama himself said screw the power levels, they train get stronger and then they fight. That's how it's interpreted now.


----------



## Gone (May 21, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Its still unquantifiable, until someone finds the magic formula to figure out how power levels work, all's it is unquantifiable.



The fact that Frieza, at his absolute shit weakest, is able to kill King Vegeta with a single shot says he is much more powerful. maybe you cant get an exact calc, but it says hes a lot stronger> Power levels dont exist in most fiction and were still able to figure stuff out.

Now Gohan, being able to kill Frieza with a single punch, says that he is a lot stronger than Frieza (who is more powerful than King Vegeta) by the same logic.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> The fact that Frieza, at his absolute shit weakest, is able to kill King Vegeta with a single shot says he is much more powerful. maybe you cant get an exact calc, but it says hes a lot stronger> Power levels dont exist in most fiction and were still able to figure stuff out.
> 
> Now Gohan, being able to kill Frieza with a single punch, says that he is a lot stronger than Frieza (who is more powerful than King Vegeta) by the same logic.



In other fictions, we never powerscale more than the max shown in the series. The same should be applied to DBZ. If anything, the lack of better feats later on gives an indication of an outlier, not much stronger characters EoS.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (May 21, 2012)

When Buu destroys the galaxy in Supreme Kai's flashbacks, we see lightning-like arcs of energy that would have to be many light years long to even be visible. That trumps King Vegeta's feat easily.


----------



## Zeno (May 21, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Define no-limits fallacy.



Definite idiocy. You can't just label everything NLF as you please.



Shoddragon said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am aware he is able to take damage from punches, but how would they kill him, especially since he has demonstrated the ability to shape shift. Don't give some bullshit like you can punch something out of existence, because that is retarded. And Buu needs to vanish completely.


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Definite idiocy. You can't just label everything NLF as you please.
> 
> 
> 
> I am aware he is able to take damage from punches, but how would they kill him, especially since he has demonstrated the ability to shape shift. Don't give some bullshit like you can punch something out of existence, because that is retarded. And Buu needs to vanish completely.



Asura can also energize his punches with mantra. When he does that it's called the Wrath Cannon, a huge expansion of energy that comes from his fist that releases upon the opponent with great force and power. Asura's air bullet punches can take Buu out by him just consecutively punching him with incredible speeds. There's also the factor of Asura being capable of raining punches to Buu, each punch with Star level power.

Take your pick. Wrath Cannon, Asura's # Crack Fist, or Air Pressure punches.


----------



## OS (May 21, 2012)

Asuras pressure punches eradicate multiple planets at once one hit each. Though in game mechanics.


He ran through a star sized planet easily so eh.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (May 21, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Definite idiocy. You can't just label everything NLF as you please.



....

A NLF is the fallacy of assuming that something has no limit's or is in someway a lot stronger than what has been shown. In this case you are using a Buu's regen as an excuse for him to survive starbusting power, when we instead no that he was destroyed by something much less than that and hurt by something much less than that.


----------



## Shoddragon (May 21, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Definite idiocy. You can't just label everything NLF as you please.
> 
> 
> 
> I am aware he is able to take damage from punches, but how would they kill him, especially since he has demonstrated the ability to shape shift. Don't give some bullshit like you can punch something out of existence, because that is retarded. And Buu needs to vanish completely.



1. by overpowering buu's regen like what gotenks did?

2. um....... punch something out of existence? I'm pretty sure asura isn't packing some goofy or wonky feats like some versions of hulk or superman.

3. Buu just needs to take enough damage and be hit with a powerful energy attack to kill him for good. asura beats the shit out of him with his fists then hits him with an energy blast.


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> 1. by overpowering buu's regen like what gotenks did?
> 
> *2. um....... punch something out of existence? I'm pretty sure asura isn't packing some goofy or wonky feats like some versions of hulk or superman.
> *
> 3. Buu just needs to take enough damage and be hit with a powerful energy attack to kill him for good. asura beats the shit out of him with his fists then hits him with an energy blast.



He did kinda sorta punch Chakravartin out of existence with an extremely powerful Megaton punch. So he can sorta punch things out of existence lol.


----------



## PakiSama (May 21, 2012)

this is of topic but toonami is coming back hell ya!


----------



## Gomu (May 21, 2012)

I already said that in feats of the week.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (May 22, 2012)

Don't really care. I Live in Australia so it doesn't affect me.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 22, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Definite idiocy. You can't just label everything NLF as you please.


id?i?o?cy/ˈidēəsē/
Noun:	
Extremely stupid behavior: "It is idiocy to say that buu can take starbusting punches".
Synonyms:	
imbecility - silliness - foolishness

I'm not labeling it "as I please". If someone said something similar about Asura, I would call that an NLF as well.


----------



## Zeno (May 22, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> id?i?o?cy/ˈidēəsē/
> Noun:
> Extremely stupid behavior: "It is idiocy to say that buu can take starbusting punches".
> Synonyms:
> ...



This starbusting power has to be in the form of energy that actually destroys the body, not a punch that... well you know what a punch does. I'm not implying that Buu has star level durability but there is no way to gauge the power in the Super Spirit bomb.

And please explain how Buu's body can sustain damage from punching after he regenerates from smoke. Where did the damage to the body go? It certainly doesn't carry through.


----------



## Gomu (May 22, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> This starbusting power has to be in the form of energy that actually destroys the body, not a punch that... well you know what a punch does. I'm not implying that Buu has star level durability but there is no way to gauge the power in the Super Spirit bomb.
> 
> And please explain how Buu's body can sustain damage from punching after he regenerates from smoke. Where did the damage to the body go? It certainly doesn't carry through.



If Buu is affected by punches on the level of someone lesser than the person that's fighting now. He's gonna be affected much greater with these punches than he would with the punches of the aforementioned person that punched him before. Buu can be affected by physical attacks and was throughout the battles. Buu's only gonna get beaten worse from the punches he takes from Asura. And again, you're trying to say that just because of his body he has the ability to regenerate. Lets think about this for a second then. Asura's pressure punches have enough power to destroy earth sized planets many times over. Asura also has the ability to punch with the full brunt of his attack strength.

Asura can punch through star sized planets as well. Go right through one with a single thrust punch.

The pressure from his full on punches is greater than the pressure from a punch thrown at a distance. Meaning that the explosive power would probably be capable of devastating Buu. If someone like Vegeto who's weaker than Buu can attack and likely defeat Buu (who was barely being serious) a serious Asura can attack and end him. You saw the proof, punches affect Buu, physical attacks affect Buu, Buu can be hurt by a Star destroyer's punch.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (May 22, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> This starbusting power has to be in the form of energy that actually destroys the body, not a punch that... well you know what a punch does. I'm not implying that Buu has star level durability but there is no way to gauge the power in the Super Spirit bomb.
> 
> And please explain how Buu's body can sustain damage from punching after he regenerates from smoke. Where did the damage to the body go? It certainly doesn't carry through.



The same way logias can get hurt by mountainbusting attacks.


----------



## BrandoM (May 22, 2012)

Buu can be hurt/weakened by punches, but he can always regen from them, too. Punches can stun/weaken him, and then a powerful enough ki attack can "erase" him since ki is kind of plot device-y as opposed to just being "pure energy blast." 

The only way I could see beating Buu outside of the plot device nature of ki and being able to erase him since he can survive from being vaporized (which most planet/star busters actually do) is to vaporize him beyond the shown limits (instead of blowing him into dust/ash/smoke/vapor, doing it and spreading him out across a ridiculously large area), or something that "erases" him like ki does in a different way (ie. completely atomizing him so that instead of his molecules spreading out, which is vaporization, his atoms all explode).


----------



## Gomu (May 22, 2012)

BrandoM said:


> Buu can be hurt/weakened by punches, but he can always regen from them, too. Punches can stun/weaken him, and then a powerful enough ki attack can "erase" him since ki is kind of plot device-y as opposed to just being "pure energy blast."
> 
> The only way I could see beating Buu outside of the plot device nature of ki and being able to erase him since he can survive from being vaporized (which most planet/star busters actually do) is to vaporize him beyond the shown limits (instead of blowing him into dust/ash/smoke/vapor, doing it and spreading him out across a ridiculously large area), or something that "erases" him like ki does in a different way (ie. completely atomizing him so that instead of his molecules spreading out, which is vaporization, his atoms all explode).



Asura can also project huge amounts of ki from his fists as well. So it's not like he has no brand of attack other than punching the shit out of them. He can variant it and cause a massive explosion of mantra outward while punching the fuck out of them. See the difference?


----------



## BrandoM (May 22, 2012)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Define no-limits fallacy.
> 
> Movies are non-canon to the anime. Although there is the near-light piccolo kamehara in the anime, which would give faster anime DBZ methinks.
> 
> Manga Buu has a top-end planetbuster as well though, so that isn't really an upgrade.



You're right about movies being non canon to the anime. However, Piccolo's masenko is close to light in the manga as well, since it hits the moon during Oozaru Gohan's actions. So that's not anime only. 

DBZ is underestimated in reaction speed (being able to dodge/react to blasts that are clearly FTL - if Piccolo's blasts get to the moon in seconds, how fast do Freeza's finger beams, which Piccolo can't even see, go?) and punching power (Goten able to casually toss rocks through mountains, Buu doing more than the equivalent of punching completely through the planet), just as badly as new people come in and overestimate them and put them against Galaxy busters and such. Which is, as people say, mostly the movie/anime's fault. Since the movies do say people destroyed galaxies, have Cooler and Goku fighting at speeds 1000x FTL (fighting in IT, which is some kind of FTL travel in the movies as opposed to teleporting), and have Brolly just being himself.


----------



## BrandoM (May 22, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Asura can also project huge amounts of ki from his fists as well. So it's not like he has no brand of attack other than punching the shit out of them. He can variant it and cause a massive explosion of mantra outward while punching the fuck out of them. See the difference?



I wasn't arguing for or against anyone - just stating that Buu being killed by punches obviously won't work, nor simply "big blast." If Asura has some way of erasing him, blowing up his atoms, as opposed to vaporizing him, or spreading him across the cosmos, I'd say he wins.


----------



## Gomu (May 22, 2012)

BrandoM said:


> I wasn't arguing for or against anyone - just stating that Buu being killed by punches obviously won't work, nor simply "big blast." If Asura has some way of erasing him, blowing up his atoms, as opposed to vaporizing him, or spreading him across the cosmos, I'd say he wins.



The Super Spirit Bomb erases atoms now?


----------



## Nevermind (May 22, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Asuras pressure punches eradicate multiple planets at once one hit each. Though in game mechanics.
> 
> 
> He ran through a star sized planet easily so eh.





BrandoM said:


> The only way I could see beating Buu outside of the plot device nature of ki and being able to erase him since he can survive from being vaporized (which most planet/star busters actually do) is to vaporize him beyond the shown limits (instead of blowing him into dust/ash/smoke/vapor, doing it and spreading him out across a ridiculously large area), or something that "erases" him like ki does in a different way (ie. completely atomizing him so that instead of his molecules spreading out, which is vaporization, his atoms all explode).



I hope you're not saying Buu has atomic level regen.

There are plenty of ways to beat him, and lol at ki being a plot device.



BrandoM said:


> DBZ is underestimated in reaction speed (being able to dodge/react to blasts that are clearly FTL - if Piccolo's blasts get to the moon in seconds



1. Getting to the moon in seconds is slower than light.
2. The speed of that blast is an outlier, considering far slower similar feats from stronger characters like Cell and Buu's blasts (which haven't been settled completely yet, but they're a lot slower).

>Comes back.
>Sees Asura vs DBZ again.
>OBD2012.gif


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (May 22, 2012)

Why are people still debating this?

And... Did someone seriously claim that DBZ characters are FTL? I thought that had been sorted out years ago...


----------



## Ulti (May 22, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> >Comes back.
> >Sees Asura vs DBZ again.
> >OBD2012.gif



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcYZlRWWxO0[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Gomu (May 22, 2012)

He's probably using filler.


----------



## Nevermind (May 22, 2012)

Ulti knows what's up.


----------



## BrandoM (May 22, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> I hope you're not saying Buu has atomic level regen.
> 
> There are plenty of ways to beat him, and lol at ki being a plot device.



Yes, he does. He was vaporized by Piccolo and Gotenks. That means simply vaping him won't work since he has feats from coming back from it. If you can vaporize something and it comes back, the next step up is either (a)atomizing or (b)vaporizing it and spreading the vapor out to a level it hasn't been shown to come back from. Both of which I already said.  



> 1. Getting to the moon in seconds is slower than light.
> 2. The speed of that blast is an outlier, considering far slower similar feats from stronger characters like Cell and Buu's blasts (which haven't been settled completely yet, but they're a lot slower).



Light takes 1.2 seconds to get from the moon to earth. The anime has it reaching the moon in just under 2 ( going off memory) which would make it just below light. The manga has it getting there in a panel, which would happen to be similar time since the same actions are happening around Piccolo in the manga. But to be safe, since you can't judge "one panel" in accurate time; you can just say "seconds."

If you calc Freeza's finger beam using that as a basis, and using the minimum calc of where a human can perceive something moving at a distance of 30 feet, you're at the minimum 5 times faster, if a much more powerful Piccolo can't perceive the finger beam. 

Every blast does not go the same speed, so I'm not sure what comparable blasts you're referring to from Cell/Buu. Given that the blast had a similar effect to the non-remote controlled kamehamehas, you can only compare them to those or the masenko or the final flash/big bang attack. And of course the finger beams, since they were shown to be 5+ time faster than anything else at the time they were done. 

The only comparable instances I can think of is Buu batting Gohan's blast back through the entire planet in one panel (in the anime, it being "instant"), Gohan's Kamehameha hitting Cell, THEN going a distance outside of the atmosphere in a panel, and one of Buu's blasts going a similar distance in the same amount of time. otherwise, you're judging blasts against equally fast people, which isn't a point of reference.

Ki has been a plot device to do whatever since early Dragonball. The Genki dama "erases bad energy and bounces off of good," other ki "burns" other ki can open dimensional holes, other ki can make ghost copies of you that have minds of their own. It's not just "energy blasts."


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (May 22, 2012)

I think you underestimate how strong Asura's punches are. They should be a shitload more powerful than the strongest thing in DBZ. Buu dies to anything that is reasonably above his Regen and Durability, and Asura's punches are more than reasonably above. a lot more.


----------



## Nevermind (May 22, 2012)

BrandoM said:


> Yes, he does. He was vaporized by Piccolo and Gotenks. That means simply vaping him won't work since he has feats from coming back from it. If you can vaporize something and it comes back, the next step up is either (a)atomizing or (b)vaporizing it and spreading the vapor out to a level it hasn't been shown to come back from. Both of which I already said.



Doesn't mean he can regenerate from a single atom, or even a single molecule.



> If you calc Freeza's finger beam using that as a basis, and using the minimum calc of where a human can perceive something moving at a distance of 30 feet, you're at the minimum 5 times faster, if a much more powerful Piccolo can't perceive the finger beam.



Peak human figures aren't allowed for superhuman characters. They always produce outliers.



> Every blast does not go the same speed, so I'm not sure what comparable blasts you're referring to from Cell/Buu. Given that the blast had a similar effect to the non-remote controlled kamehamehas, you can only compare them to those or the masenko or the final flash/big bang attack. And of course the finger beams, since they were shown to be 5+ time faster than anything else at the time they were done.



Cell's kamehameha and Buu's blast were both calced to be much slower than light speed, as will the Final Flash.



> Ki has been a plot device to do whatever since early Dragonball. The Genki dama "erases bad energy and bounces off of god," other ki "burns" other ki can open dimensional holes, other ki can make ghost copies of you that have minds of their own. It's not just "energy blasts."



Nothing special.


----------



## Gomu (May 22, 2012)

BrandoM said:


> -snip-



You lost me after you said anime.


----------



## Shoddragon (May 22, 2012)

BrandoM said:


> Yes, he does. He was vaporized by Piccolo and Gotenks. That means simply vaping him won't work since he has feats from coming back from it. If you can vaporize something and it comes back, the next step up is either (a)atomizing or (b)vaporizing it and spreading the vapor out to a level it hasn't been shown to come back from. Both of which I already said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




what do you think is the link between movement and reaction speed?

because if you try to claim that ftl ki blasts are consistent then you get shit like raditz with relativistic-ftl reactions and double digit movement speed.


----------



## BrandoM (May 22, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Doesn't mean he can regenerate from a single atom, or even a single molecule.



Who said that? What are you talking about here?

Vaporizing means that your molecular structure breaks. It's what happens when water turns into gas, or when something is exposed to so much heat that it turns into gas and ash.

That's what happened to Buu. He got blown up, than every tiny piece of him was vaporized by Piccolo and Gotenks. He just came back from the vapor. In other words, his molecules came back together. He's one step up from Cell, who was mostly vaporized but came back because a nucleus survived with his data. Buu comes back from the molecules themselves. It took an attack that specifically "erased' him to take him out for good. 

No matter how much heat you use, it's not going to do anything more than vaporize. So any kind of standard heat-energy based weapon will vaporize him, at best, which would get the same result.

You get around that by vaporizing him + spreading out the molecules beyond the distance that they were shown to come back together, or by actually splitting his atoms. So, if for instance, Asura can punch him, vaporize him with the punch, then spread him out in a planetary distance with that explosion from the vaporizaton, that would do it. Or, if he had a cartoon - like atomizing beam. 



> Peak human figures aren't allowed for superhuman characters. They always produce outliers.



It's ludicrous to say that someone can't see something going twice as fast as something they can dodge up close at 30 feet. Those aren't "peak human" figures, they're minimal regular human figures of perception. Even at 2 or 3X, you're pushing it. The characters punch stuff hard enough to go high fractions of light with the resistance of the entire planet going against them. Blasts constantly go way past the atmosphere in a panel when dissipating or are being deflected. 



> Cell's kamehameha and Buu's blast were both calced to be much slower than light speed, as will the Final Flash.



By what calc? There's no way to calculate Vegeta's Final Flash, for instance because there's nothing around to use as a standard to calc it against. Piccolo's masenko had Gohan stomping around after him to give a minimal amount of time to calc it with (ie. you can say it was at least real-time, but probably much faster). Vegeta's Final Flash, on the two instances he did it, were against superhumans with nothing else to calc it against. Same for Cell's Kamehameha. How are these calcs working without any set time to calc them against? Show me what barometer is being used there to provide a comparison of time. 



> Nothing special.



Besides the fact that they are proven to have other properties besides just standard energy, which is the point?


----------



## BrandoM (May 22, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> what do you think is the link between movement and reaction speed?
> 
> because if you try to claim that ftl ki blasts are consistent then you get shit like raditz with relativistic-ftl reactions and double digit movement speed.



DBZ short range movement and long range movement isn't related at all, outside of "if they've gotten faster in one, they've generally gotten faster in the other." Way back at the beginning of DB, Roshi's short range movement was 50 - 100X faster than how quickly he ran, and both are clear and uncontestable feats. The same for Goku later on in DB, or Goku traveling in Z.

Dragon Ball has always used the eastern ki philosophy way of thinking where you can strike and dodge or short range attack much quicker or stronger than you can lift or run as you develop your ki, and the series takes it to ridiculous extents. 

It's the same with striking or lifting - a kid can struggle lifting a pile of stuff, and the same kid throws rocks clear through mountains. It's not comics where both are closely related. It's based on Eastern Martial arts philosophy as opposed to Greek Myths.


----------



## Nevermind (May 22, 2012)

> Vaporizing means that your molecular structure breaks. It's what happens when water turns into gas, or when something is exposed to so much heat that it turns into gas and ash.



I know what it means.

Atomic regeneration generally means he can come back from a single atom, which he can't.



> It's ludicrous to say that someone can't see something going twice as fast as something they can dodge up close at 30 feet. Those aren't "peak human" figures, they're minimal regular human figures of perception.



Which are disregarded in calcs because of tropes. They always lead to inflation and outliers.



> By what calc?



Brohan made the attempt two months ago.



> Vegeta's Final Flash, on the two instances he did it, were against superhumans with nothing else to calc it against. Same for Cell's Kamehameha. How are these calcs working without any set time to calc them against? Show me what barometer is being used there to provide a comparison of time.



Debris dispersion/free fall.


----------



## BrandoM (May 22, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> I know what it means.
> 
> Atomic regeneration generally means he can come back from a single atom, which he can't.



I was using it in a direct comparison to vaporization, so no, that's not what was meant. So to clear it up, heat, no matter how hot, and thus most fictional beams wont do it on their own without spreading him out to a degree not seen before for him. You have to actually start blowing up a significant amount of atoms, or spread him across a great distance after being vaporized to do so. Or have something like ki or magic which is proven to have whatever properties it wants to at times. 

Or stick him in a star, where the constant vaporizing and mixing should keep him from reforming. 



> Brohan made the attempt two months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Debris dispersion/free fall.



Can you link it? You can't calc the manga in that method unless there's some evidence he used that I can't think of. Just using the manga, you only have a few blast-speed-calcs, and they're rather consistent. The anime, well, Toei, I wouldn't doubt it's all over the place.


----------

