# Minato vs Itachi



## Buuhan (Mar 20, 2018)

Location: Forest of Death
Distance: 30 meters
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: None
Versions: Living Minato/Itachi who isn't dying
Stipulations: The battlefield is not pre marked for Minato

Minato

vs

Itachi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 20, 2018)

Itachi can control Minato's FTG with, kunai and with spreading Amaterasu in the area where FTG kunai are. So I'm assuming Itachi has the advantage.


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## savior2005 (Mar 20, 2018)

Minato slaughters

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 2


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## Maverick04 (Mar 20, 2018)

Could go either way..I like Minato's chances because of Hiraishin..But Itachi's jutsu speed and basic combat speed is pretty fast as well..Not as fast as Minato Ofc but he can definitely handle his own seeing how he was keeping up with KCM Naruto and Bee for a while..And then there is the fact that Bee reacted to Minato teleporting behind him but he needed Itachi to tell him that he's behind Bee..But the problem comes for Itachi after he starts using susanoo..He'd be better off using the lower forms of susanoo at first in order to avoid getting tagged..But if Minato starts using Tajuu Kage bunshins then Itachi would have to resort to higher forms of Susanoo..And thats when he starts losing stamina..Minato would most likely outlast him if he doesn't look into the Sharingan..If he does then Minato might lose..And considering the fact that Itachi can cast genjutsu without Eye contact it's quite possible..End result is Minato wins High diff 7/10 times

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 20, 2018)

KB or Tajuu KB would leave Minato defeated if he used them. Tsukuyomi is a hard counter to KB.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

With manga knowledge minato low diffs itachi...as itachi has no idea how to fucking spell Hiraishin...let alone how to counter it whatsoever...


Itachi is really limited in his defensive means against minato......He would need to clear every kunai minato throws by a very respectable distance or he gets blitzed, as even dodging a kunai by even an entire arms length wont cut it as minato could still tag him with rasengan at that distance from the kunai....Now tack on over a dozen kunai flying at itachi simultaneously, and consider he needs to keep a minimum of 3 feet away from every one of them to successfully dodge or he dies. Doesnt look good so far.

Blocking the FTG kunai with anything thats not susanoo is a death sentence, legit the worst thing itachi can do as it opens him up to a lvl 2 blitz. And as i just pointed out, dodging/near misses are also a death sentence...Kinda running out of options here aint we? A single kunai from minato requires some serious decision making on itachis part in terms of how the hell he will counter it...Think about that...*One kunai allows minato to make itachi sweat about something as simple as his next movement in the fight. *

Im sure an itachi fan or two will point out his shurikenjutsu and how he can merely intercept minatos kunai before they even get close enough to pressure him...And to that id need to respectfully disagree. One needs to look no further than itachi Vs sasuke to see why that wont work. As we see in the fight, itachi is in fact capable of deflecting projectiles using his own to make sure they dont directly hit him...and while thats all well and good...*Didnt i already point out minato doesn't need a direct hit to kill itachi?* *That he merely needs the kunai within arms length of itachi to kill him?* Im pretty sure i did... How about the several shuriken in the middle panel with the top down view of itachi and sasuke...Maybe a 1.5 feet? Tops? So all itachis shurikenjutsu do for him...Is set him up with false confidence...He would assume that as long as the kunai dont hit him he is safe...And he is literally dead wrong.

*Itachi engaging in CQC is yet another death sentence...So what that now? Like 3 big, fatal no-nos for itachi so far?*  . If minato ever gets a damn finger on itachi..., or itachi being forced on the defensive, or minato blocking one of itachis hits or literally anything...And itachi has lost. 


Another huge problem for itachi...Minatos clones... which is something many overlook when discussing minato. *You thought itachis chances at avoiding FTG blitz were bad when he had to avoid one minatos hands and kunai supply? Try 2 minatos...Or 3...4...And so on*...All simultaneously throwing shit at itachi and trying to slap that ass with their cattle brand marking itachi as their fresh meat. Itachis disadvantages are increased literally exponentially. And also, itachi cant even risk getting close to a damn clone for fear of the real minato FTG blitzing him VIA SAID CLONE.

Things are looking damn bleak for itachi if ya ask me...

Itachis eyes are not a problem for a teleporter/top tier speedster to avoid, his crows do nothing to minato, and finger genjutsu was noticed by time skip naruto who is a moron, minato easily avoids/counters it. The only genjutsu that EVEN MATTERS here is tsukuyomi or other eye contact shit...Which will never happen due to minatos superior speed and reaction time coupled with FTG teleportation...,  for MS to even track...

Itachi is forced into maintaining a version of susanoo this entire fight, as he cannot live anything minato would hit him with otherwise, itachis dirt tier reserves do not allow for such a strategy, but its either this or die immediately to the yellow flash.

If itachi does not maintain susanoo from the jump, he risks allowing minato to tag him with a FTG seal on his person, this allows minato to straight up ignore susanoo and merely FTG inside it and Odama itachi into the ground.

Itachi also needs to maintain a fairly high level of susanoo the entire time for fear of minato busting the weaker versions with FCD.... Add to this, 

And unfortunately for itachi, his susanoo does nothing to minato short of stall the man, itachis susanoo attacks are useless against hiraishins level of speed, minato dances around anything and everything itachi tries to hit him with.

Needless to say itachi cant keep this up for long, and eventually passes out due to MS strain, minato then casually handles the situation.


Itachi cant lay a finger on minato, Itachi cant react to a FTG blitz, faster people than him have tried and failed, people with sharingan have tried and failed. Itachi is tagged stupid easily outside of susanoo, and susanoo is outlasted stupid easily.

Amaterasu wont tag minato
Tsukuyomi wont tag minato
Susanoo wont tag minato
Youre dreaming if you think a fodder katon, suiton, crow, or explosive bunshin are gonna do shit where the holy trinity of MS techs fail epically...

How anyone thinks itachi walks away with the win here is beyond me.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 9 | Optimistic 3


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

I'll explain in more detail why Itachi wins. If and when Minato attempts to spread a large number of kunai around the forest, Itachi can simply shunshin, while Minato is spreading his kunai all at once, causing Minato to lose sight of him. If you look in the manga where Minato spread a large amount of kunai against the Raikage, he looked to his left while he was doing it.
That moment would be all Itachi needs to leave a KB in his place. 

There's other ways he can accomplish the same thing. Use Gokakyu as a sight blocker, switch places with a KB and shunshin out of sight. Or he could Amaterasu Minato. Even if he Minato deals with it, there will be some damage from Itachi's Amaterasu, more importantly, Minato will be preoccupied with dealing with Amaterasu, which can be used as a distraction to switch places with a clone and shunshin out of sight. Hell, even crows can be used as a distraction for the KB switch. 

Once out of sight Minato could be killed by kunai directed at his blind spot, from above. If Minato tries to attack in midrange Itachi can use his crows for either genjutsu or distraction or use finger genjutsu. In CQC Minato would is at a big disadvantage, mostly due to ridiculously fast hand seal speed + KB and genjutsu. It would be extremely difficult for Minato to deal with that. Itachi can simply create a KB behind Minato out of nowhere and have it stab him in the back instantly. Minato has no counter for that. He could create Kb right in front of Minato, while he comes at Itachi, and that would lead to genjutsu gg. Itachi doesn't even have to do anything special with the clone, if he just creates a KB right beside himself, Minato would undoubtedly turn his head in surprise at the clone, which could lead to sharingan genjutsu or Itachi using shunshin to get out of sight. 
​He can use Susanoo and Amaterasu to control the area.  Susanoo can cut down the trees, Amaterasu can burn the whole area. If Minato uses KB, like I said he loses. KB transfer stress to the user, which means Tsukuyomi would kill Minato.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Djomla (Mar 21, 2018)

Been done before. Minato wins. 

Itachi's biggest chance here is Susano. Problem is. Susano is a direct link to his chakra meaning it is also a FTG's bitch.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> With manga knowledge minato low diffs itachi...as itachi has no idea how to fucking spell Hiraishin...let alone how to counter it whatsoever...
> 
> 
> Itachi is really limited in his defensive means against minato......He would need to clear every kunai minato throws by a very respectable distance or he gets blitzed, as even dodging a kunai by even an entire arms length wont cut it as minato could still tag him with rasengan at that distance from the kunai....Now tack on over a dozen kunai flying at itachi simultaneously, and consider he needs to keep a minimum of 3 feet away from every one of them to successfully dodge or he dies. Doesnt look good so far.
> ...



Speed tiers are fucked by Killer B intercepting FTG Level 2 when it was used on A and then reacting to again it when it was used on him afterwards.

The normal interception feats bs doesn't apply since there's no way B could see that attack coming and start his interception before Minato actually appeared behind A. 

Edo Itachi (who is <living Itachi) was dodging surprise attacks by those same lolgodspeed tentacles. So, basically, Itachi reacted to the same move that Minato didn't see coming. Itachi completed three ninjutsu (crow clone, genjutsu, phoenix flower) in the same timeframe Minato only completed one action/jutsu (marking B with FTG formula) 



Lol, Minato's "speed" is just hype. There's other characters that can match him in foot speed or reaction times. Minato just has a special jutsu that carries an instantaneous effect.

Unfortunately for him, Susano'o is also shown to be near instantaneous when summoned. Giving Itachi a high speed option to react to FTG with. Minato's FTG blitz attempt is gonna get hit  because even a blind, dead Itachi can whip Susano'o out fast enough to block Sasuke's gOdLiek SpEEd.


Itachi and FKS Sasuke are already in the same perception/reactions tier as Minato. 

You're really just relying on Itachi being too surprised to respond to FTG Level 2, even though we know he could detect Minato behind him if Minato approached that way.

(inb4 "teen Obito=adult Itachi reaction speed" with no evidence)

Minato is famous for his space-time jutsu. Manga knowledge means Itachi already knows to expect that from him. Minato's whole set will be figured out as soon as Itachi notices the kunai that was just thrown at him has a formula seal written on it.

Unlike Obito's retarded ass that was sooooo surprised Minato can teleport to where his kunai is when THAT'S EXACTLY HOW THE FUCK FTG HAS ALWAYS WORKED IN EVERY SITUATION. Teleporting to his kunai is his whole battle strategy and Obito somehow didn't expect that that's what Minato was trying to do to him.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fëanáro (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Location: Forest of Death
> Distance: 30 meters
> Mindset: IC
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...


If the mindset is IC they probably spar for a bit and talk the whole time and then Minato tells Itachi to come back home with him so Kushina can make him some lunch and they can talk about whether Itachi wants to be Hokage.

Niceness Stalemate.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Creative 1


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 21, 2018)

This matchup was done last week and hundreds of other times.

War-arc feats put Minato in another speed plane in comparison to all Uchiha bar Rikudos. He was several steps ahead of Kamui and Madara's Truthseekers - techniques well out of Itachi's speed caliber.

Considering both of these shinobi's techniques are entirely dependent upon their speed- it only makes sense that Minato wins.

I would advise people to stop bringing up features from Minato when he didn't even have Rasengan. Degrading that version means nothing when you're debating against the best version of Minato - which is the one with a flamed cloak on not a standard military outfit several years prior.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Location: Forest of Death
> Distance: 30 meters
> Mindset: IC
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...


Does Shinden count ?


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

Polandfan said:


> Does Shinden count ?


Remind me what feats are present in the novel?


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Remind me what feats are present in the novel?


You said IC, so I wanted to know if Itachi has his personality from Anbu(killing without holding back).

Reactions: Creative 1


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 21, 2018)

I'll post my Genjutsu thing later today...


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## hbcaptain (Mar 21, 2018)

Favoring Minato more times than not for a high/extreme diff win.
I don't think the fight is as easy as some claim above.
The simple fact Tobirama (who has a fighting style similar to Minato's) fighting Izuna (who's fighting style is comparable to Itachi's) for years without defeating him is more than enough as a proof.
So, in the author's point of view, both Itachi and Minato have the tools to deal with each other.
Featwise, both of them has instanteneous techniques, Susano'o and Hiraishin, furhtermore Minato must not look in Itachi's eyes because of Tsukuyomi. In other words, the fourth will be in serious trouble if Itachi didn't have stamina problems due, however and for the same reason Minato can simply outlasts him or finishes him off when he starts showing some weackenss due to tireness.
Overall, either Itachi ends it pretty quick thanks to his superior arsenal, either Minato survives until he finds the right moment to attack.
Portrayalwise, I think both of them are pretty much equal as well, Itachi got some insane hype and statements in P2 (and also in P1), which are practically ignored by Jiraya fans, which allows him to stand on par with the former Hokages. And from symbolic point view, Itachi is more like Minato's Yin part whilst Oro&Jiraya are the inferior duality which is directly compared to Naruto&Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> With manga knowledge minato low diffs itachi...as itachi has no idea how to fucking spell Hiraishin...let alone how to counter it whatsoever...
> 
> 
> Itachi is really limited in his defensive means against minato......He would need to clear every kunai minato throws by a very respectable distance or he gets blitzed, as even dodging a kunai by even an entire arms length wont cut it as minato could still tag him with rasengan at that distance from the kunai....Now tack on over a dozen kunai flying at itachi simultaneously, and consider he needs to keep a minimum of 3 feet away from every one of them to successfully dodge or he dies. Doesnt look good so far.
> ...



Ah 

A bunch of optimistic ratings and no counter arguments

Another day in a Minato vs Itachi thread where the Itachi side has no leg to stand on 

My work here is done

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bonly (Mar 21, 2018)

I'd say this could go either way. If Itachi lands Genjutsu on Minato then he can land a hit that would either kill Minato or badly wound Minato enough to give Itachi the edge assuming the Genjutsu isn't the fatal blow while on the otherhand if Minato managed to tag Itachi it'll be over for Itachi as Minato's gonna bag him when the opportunity presents itself so it depends on how the battle plays out imo


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

@Jackalinthebox 

Thats adorable

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Jackalinthebox
> 
> Thats adorable


Thanks

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mori Jin (Mar 21, 2018)

Minato got this.

Sage Mode > Genjutsu. He wouldn't need to look at him to sense him trying to use some Sharingan Genjutsu. Minato is a Natural Sensor anyway, he'd hightail it out of there or switch with a clone if he needs to.

Taijutsu, if he gets into CQC with itachi, he'd mark him and it's game over. 

Itachi brings out Susanoo and Minato would either teleport it away -if Madara was taken out of his Susanoo, Susanoo can get taken away from him as well- or the weapons. 

When it comes to speed, Minato is 10/10 faster then Itachi. 

I'd give this to Minato easily.


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## Bonly (Mar 21, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> Sage Mode > Genjutsu. He wouldn't need to look at him to sense him trying to use some Sharingan Genjutsu.





Minato can't use Sage Mode for long and as we saw one Rasengan was enough to kick him back to base so Minato can't rely on Sage Mode for a majority of the match. 



> Minato is a Natural Sensor anyway, he'd hightail it out of there or switch with a clone if he needs to.





"Even if all three were sensory types, they still have to see an attack coming in order to counter it no?"

Sensing is good but sensing doesn't allow someone to fight without eye sight and we've seen sensors unable to fight without looking at their enemy multiple times in the manga

Reactions: Winner 2 | Informative 1


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## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Minato takes it I think. Just a snap answer from here--

It could be more difficult if Itachi has Susanoo up from get-go, BUT

Itachi hasn't displayed feats to comfortably put him near A4 speed, Minato speed exceeds that by a margin. 
Sage Mode would physically would put Minato in another tier in my opinion, but the manner in which Minato can use Sage Mode is questionable.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 21, 2018)

Its a shame Ino was thrown in the trash and only exists in Sakura's shadow. 

Ino is probably the best sensor in her generation besides Karin. 

Yet she only grew up to become a Samsung flip phone with Google hangouts installed

Reactions: Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

Polandfan said:


> You said IC, so I wanted to know if Itachi has his personality from Anbu(killing without holding back).


Well the goal here is to kill. He’s not bloodlusted meaning he’s going for his strongest tech right off the bat(KI), but in character means he’ll use the abilities in a similar fashion to canon.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Clone feints will not be a problem for Minato. Minato is canonically more reflective ()()than both sharingan users that Itachi managed to trip up with his fast handseals. It's nothing that Minato can't deal with. As for exploding clones Kakashi has canonically countered that shit, I have no doubt in my mind the faster, the more reflective Shinobi that also has the express abilitty to port out at any second can wipe his ass with it

Genjutsu doesn't seem to be a likely scenario given his speed, and the fact that he has a feat already of keeping up with an Uchiha and refraining from getting gg'd

I don't believe he really even needs summonings, at the worst I think he'd use to trample Susanoo with FCD. Though he managed to blitz the Kyubi with it, so not much of a reason to assume he can do it to Susanoo. As for how much damage it would do the shit was able to , who at 50% of its power was ragdolling 5 bjuii's simultaneously, so I'd say a decent amount

Minato's ability to spread his multiple kunais and control the battlefield, allows him to keep the match in his pocket as he not only has the means to attack Itachi from his blindsides, but he also has the means to evade Susanoo if that becomes a factor in this matchup.

 In CQC Minato would also have the advantage. Thanks to superior body speed and reflexes Itachi either gets tagged or attacked from his blind spot via FTG V2 which allows him to not only evade his opponents attack but also allows him to attack his opponent at once

When it comes to Susanoo, It can't land jack shit on him due to his speed and reflexes in conjunction with his utilization of FTG. What makes it worse is that potentially tagging Susanoo(which Minato should be able to given he's tagged far faster opponents that weren't as big od targets as Susanoo) could give Minato a direct link to Itachi's chakra. Databook describes Susanoo as a physical manifestation of his chakra so it would make sense if tagging it would create a linkage

When that happens lol gg for Itachi pretty much. Though assuming this isn't true if Itachi wants to engage Minato early on in the fight his ass is definitely getting tagged especially if he has clones in there with him.

Minato wins

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Clone feints will not be a problem for Minato. Minato is canonically more reflective ()()than both sharingan users that Itachi managed to trip up with his fast handseals. It's nothing that Minato can't deal with. As for exploding clones Kakashi has canonically countered that shit, I have no doubt in my mind the faster, the more reflective Shinobi that also has the express abilitty to port out at any second can wipe his ass with it
> 
> Genjutsu doesn't seem to be a likely scenario given his speed, and the fact that he has a feat already of keeping up with an Uchiha and refraining from getting gg'd
> 
> ...



It can't be proven that Minato can react better than Hebi Sasuke, using Sasuke's fight against Raikage:

1. Raikage was much much closer to Sasuke in his fight against him, than in his fight against Minato, so he had much more distance to cover against Minato.
2. Instead of moving directly in a straight line towards Sasuke, Raikage moved sideways. Sasuke said himself against Bee, his sharingan has no problem seeing movements that move in a straight line towards him.
3. Even if Minato could react better than Hebi Sasuke, that doesn't mean he react faster than Itachi. Itachi fought both KCM Naruto and Bee simultaneously, without Minato's FTG. He also reacted to lightning.

Tobi was hindered by plot induced stupidity, that's all there is to that.

Itachi's KB are too much for Minato to handle.


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## Bonly (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Genjutsu doesn't seem to be a likely scenario given his speed, and the fact that he has a feat already of keeping up with an Uchiha and refraining from getting gg'd



When did Obito try to use Genjutsu on Minato again?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Bonly said:


> When did Obito try to use Genjutsu on Minato again?


Genjutsu is a constant threat, it doesn't need to be specifically stated that an Uchiha is planning on using genjutsu for us to know that when an Uchiha establishes direct eye contact that they'd use genjutsu

Obito just couldn't establish direct eye contact, making genjutsu useless

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## Bonly (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Genjutsu is a constant threat, it doesn't need to be specifically stated that an Uchiha is planning on using genjutsu for us to know that when an Uchiha establishes direct eye contact that they'd use genjutsu



It being a constant threat doesn't mean said Uchiha goes out his way to use Genjutsu all the time. Obito barely ever tried for Genjutsu during a fight against an enemy in the entire manga and when he did use Genjutsu it was to either trick Kakashi into stabbing his heart so that he could become the Juubi Jin or after he caught Konan off guard to find the Rinnegan eyes. Just because Obito has it doesn't mean he'll use it so in Obito's case where he doesn't use it often, it kinda does need to be stated otherwise we don't have much of a reason to assume he tried.



> Obito just couldn't establish direct eye contact, making genjutsu useless




*Spoiler*: __

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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Obito barely ever tried for Genjutsu


He used it against Yagura, Konan and Kakashi

No reason to assume he didn't attempt it against Minato. He just couldn't trap him.



Bonly said:


> Genjutsu it was to either trick Kakashi into stabbing his heart


Still used it



Bonly said:


> Konan off guard to find the Rinnegan eyes.


Still used it



Bonly said:


> Just because Obito has it doesn't mean he'll use it


Just because it was never stated that he was attempting to use it, doesn't mean he never attempted to use it.



Bonly said:


> *Spoiler*:



Minato very could have been looking at the general direction


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> 1. Raikage was much much closer to Sasuke in his fight against him, than in his fight against Minato, so he had much more distance to cover against Minato.
> 2. Instead of moving directly in a straight line towards Sasuke, Raikage moved sideways. Sasuke said himself against Bee, his sharingan has no problem seeing movements that move in a straight line towards him.


Raikage said Minato was faster than him

MS Sasuke nearly got blitzed by the Raikage

/topic

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Raikage said Minato was faster than him
> 
> MS Sasuke nearly got blitzed by the Raikage
> 
> /topic


Minato has FTG, that's why he's faster than raikage


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Minato has FTG, that's why he's faster than raikage


Thats a reputable point, but remember FTG requires the users reaction to be up to par which means Minato can perceive and react to the raikages speeds.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Thats a reputable point, but remember FTG requires the users reaction to be up to par which means Minato can perceive and react to the raikages speeds.


It means he can think "Hiraishin".

It's no different than Itachi reacting to Kirin or Sasuke reacting to Raikage's V2 blitz.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Thats a reputable point, but remember FTG requires the users reaction to be up to par which means Minato can perceive and react to the raikages speeds.


Minato can react to Raikage's speed from a much greater distance than Sasuke. It's like I said, even if Minato can react to Raikage has no barring on his fight with Itachi.


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## Bonly (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> He used it against Yagura, Konan and Kakashi
> 
> No reason to assume he didn't attempt it against Minato. He just couldn't trap him.



Proof he was fighting Yagura when he put him under a Genjutsu?

I guess this means Obito couldn't put Fuu and Torune under Genjutsu and he couldn't put Naruto under a Genjutsu either huh? 



> Still used it
> 
> 
> Still used it



So now we're acting ignorant of context to prevent your bubble from being busted? 



> Just because it was never stated that he was attempting to use it, doesn't mean he never attempted to use it.



Hence I'm asking for any proof or hints or anything that he did since your statement implies Obito did try, as in a fact. So far you've brought nothing to suggest he did and it seems like you just want Obito to have tried and failed to keep Minato looking more golden as opposed to looking towards the manga and then ignoring context.



> Minato very could have been looking at the general direction



Sure just like Fuu and Torune were when they fought him

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Minato has FTG, that's why he's faster than raikage


Raikage is aware of Minato possessing FTG yet he specifically mentioned "speed", regardless of your interpretation of that scene

Minato was stated to be faster than Tobirama, who in turn was superior to both Hashirama and Madara in physical speed.

It's honestly laughable to argue that Hebi Sasuke is any where near Minatos speed or reflexes. Minato physically reacted to V2 Ei while MS Sasuke could only mentally react to Ei

As for keeping up with Base bee and Kcm Naruto, it isn't that impressive. That same KCM Naruto was outmatched by Base guy in CQC Base bee also hasn't shown anything special when it comes to speed. Itachi keeping up with KCM Naruto and reacting to a strike from Base Bee is honestly not an amazing feat


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Shark said:


> It means he can think "Hiraishin".
> 
> It's no different than Itachi reacting to Kirin or Sasuke reacting to Raikage's V2 blitz.


What? 

Minato physically reacted to V2 Ei, while Sasuke's and Itachi's ass had to rely on their mental reactions i.e Susanoo to react to those stuff


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Raikage is aware of Minato possessing FTG yet he specifically mentioned "speed", regardless of your interpretation of that scene
> 
> Minato was stated to be faster than Tobirama, who in turn was superior to both Hashirama and Madara in physical speed.
> 
> ...



When was it said that they were the fastest shinobi, because of foot speed? They both have FTG. Minato reaction time hasn't been proven to be more impressive than Hebi Sasuke and definitely not Itachi, who reacted to lightning.


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## Kisame (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> What?
> 
> Minato physically reacted to V2 Ei, while Sasuke's and Itachi's ass had to rely on their mental reactions i.e Susanoo to react to those stuff


Well to be fair Raikage was sure he could land another strike if he knew which Kunai Minato was gonna teleport to next so I'm guessing he wasn't using his full speed.


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Minato can react to Raikage's speed from a much greater distance than Sasuke. It's like I said, even if Minato can react to Raikage has no barring on his fight with Itachi.


Well that reactive speed would allow him to pick up things that others would not in itachis movements.


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Well that reactive speed would allow him to pick up things that others would not in itachis movements.



It's true that Minato reacted to Raikage, but the Raikage had cover a much greater distance against Minato than against Sasuke, so Minato had more time to react. Sasuke and Minato were in very different situations. Sasuke was able to see an afterimage of Raikage, but he couldn't see Itachi use the handseals for his KB at all. Who knows how much reaction speed he would need to see Itachi's handseals.


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## JuicyG (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Location: Forest of Death
> Distance: 30 meters
> Mindset: IC
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...



*Manga Knowledge means*

Minato knows Itachi is an Uchiha, and by reputation knows to be wary of Sharingan genjutsu 
Itachi knows that Minato is the 4th Hokage and was known as the yellow flash (however this doesn't mean he automatically knows how Flying Thunder God works or knows that his marked Kunai are essential for the FTG usage)
*What IC means*

Minato is very much in-character by using FTG as quickly as possible
Itachi is always seen using 3T sharingan at the beginning of every living encounter. And never has been shown to opt for MS at the start of any fight. 
Given the knowledge each character has, it would only make sense for Itachi to be on guard (being very cautious) and for Minato to immediately avoid eye contact and opt for FTG. The forest of death is a landscape that benefits Minato more so than Itachi as well. Thrown kunai are hidden in the trees and the trees also provide Minato with coverage from Amaterasu (he can dodge it anyways). 

Although this version of Itachi isn't dying like he is in the series, he still is not a chakra monster. Holding up his Susanoo very long will not be possible. And with only manga knowledge, deflected kunai that are marked by Minato become Itachi's point of defeat, because that is where Minato will close the gap and tag Itachi (something else Itachi wouldn't know to be aware of with only Manga knowledge) Once tagged its GG Minato wins

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> It's true that Minato reacted to Raikage, but the Raikage had cover a much greater distance against Minato than against Sasuke, so Minato had more time to react. Sasuke and Minato were in very different situations. Sasuke was able to see an afterimage of Raikage, but he couldn't see Itachi use the handseals for his KB at all. Who knows how much reaction speed he would need to see Itachi's handseals.


- when a target is headed to you straight on distance isn’t  as implicit as you might think. It deals with how the brain perceives movement, but regardless minato did it effortlessly even allowing the raikage to come within an inch of his face. There’s a prime difference especially when sasuke had susanoo to knowingly fall back on. Minato has ftg here, but the comparison you make doesn’t work the way your implying it would. Hebi sasuke who is inferior to ms in terms of his reaction time wasn’t able to see itachis hand movements so it has no bearing on how well minato would deal with them.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Minato reaction time hasn't been proven to be more impressive than Hebi Sasuke


 and outperformed him in CQC

MS Sasuke's ass could only mentally react to V2 Ay's shunsin

Yet Minato's reaction time is not above _Hebi's_? 



Trolling said:


> Itachi, who reacted to lightning.


Itachi mentally reacted to Kirin. Don't know how that puts him on a pedestal in comparison to Minato who was physically reacting to guy that was pressuring an MS user

Even if I did concede Itachi is physically more reflexive, how does that account for Minato's reactions in relation to reacting and perceiving Itachi's clone feints?


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Shark said:


> wasn't using his full speed.


"He avoided my top "

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 21, 2018)

My third time posting this possible outing for Itachi... Again, I favor Minato more times than not.

Itachi can hit Minato with subtle Genjutsu after having used Amaterasu at some point, and having seen the mechanics of Flying Raijin. 

Itachi uses this Genjutsu to make it seem like Minato's tags are lit by Amaterasu's flames. He will avoid teleporting to said tags for obvious reasons. Through this method, Itachi will know where Minato will have the chance to teleport to next and can essentially control his Flying Raijin without wasting the stamina it would take to actually use Amaterasu.


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - when a target is headed to you straight on distance isn’t  as implicit as you might think. It deals with how the brain perceives movement, but regardless minato did it effortlessly even allowing the raikage to come within an inch of his face. There’s a prime difference especially when sasuke had susanoo to knowingly fall back on. Minato has ftg here, but the comparison you make doesn’t work the way your implying it would. *Hebi sasuke who is inferior to ms in terms of his reaction time wasn’t able to see itachis hand movements so it has no bearing on how well minato would deal with them.*



Are you saying that if Hebi Sasuke was in the same situation, same distance, Raikage attacking straight on, Sasuke wouldn't have been able to react? Keep in mind that even Jugo was able to react to Raikage, when the distance was big enough. 

I don't understand the bolded, how would MS Sasuke having superior reaction time mean that?


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## Kisame (Mar 21, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> "He avoided my top "


That was only a mental reaction.

When he reacted physically by throwing the knife, Raikage said he'd get him next time if he knew which knife he'd teleport to.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

Shark said:


> That was only a mental reaction.
> 
> When he reacted physically by throwing the knife, Raikage said he'd get him next time if he knew which knife he'd teleport to.


No it wasn't

Look at the scan closely

*Spoiler*: __ 








> Minato starts off with a kunai in his hand

> He then throws a Kunai above Ay's head and teleports. 

That's a physical reaction

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Are you saying that if Hebi Sasuke was in the same situation, same distance, Raikage attacking straight on, Sasuke wouldn't have been able to react? Keep in mind that even Jugo was able to react to Raikage, when the distance was big enough.
> 
> I don't understand the bolded, how would MS Sasuke having superior reaction time mean that?


Let me lay out your point in steps

You say MS Sasuke(superior to hebi) was able to react to the raikage
You then go on to say a weaker base hebi sasuke with 3t is not able to react to the Itachis hand signs
You then say that Minato=MS Sasuke who fought the raikage in reaction time
Then you say because hebi couldn't see Itachis hand signs, Minato would get caught by something because of this 
- You can't compare Minatos performance to Hebi. Its not a great parallel and doesn't serve the purpose of entailing Minato is going to lose. Minatos speed is also not entirely dependent on FTG. He needs good base reactions and movement to seize the advantage FTG places him in. If he was slow in general without it(FTG) teleporting would not help him if the opponent can intercept his move. 

- also can i get the scan of jugo reacting because i feel context would help in understanding that.


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> My third time posting this possible outing for Itachi... Again, I favor Minato more times than not.
> 
> Itachi can hit Minato with subtle Genjutsu after having used Amaterasu at some point, and having seen the mechanics of Flying Raijin.
> 
> Itachi uses this Genjutsu to make it seem like Minato's tags are lit by Amaterasu's flames. He will avoid teleporting to said tags for obvious reasons. Through this method, Itachi will know where Minato will have the chance to teleport to next and can essentially control his Flying Raijin without wasting the stamina it would take to actually use Amaterasu.


Hows he going to tag him with a genjutsu if minato is moving at the his top speed?


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Hows he going to tag him with a genjutsu if minato is moving at the his top speed?



By making eye contact, pointing at him, or using some other form of Genjutsu. There are plenty.

That may suck as a defense, but I'm sleepy

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Buuhan (Mar 21, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> By making eye contact, pointing at him, or using some other form of Genjutsu. There are plenty.
> 
> That may suck as a defense, but I'm sleepy


lol its cool, but how would it catch Minato. He has battled Obito and avoided eye contact. Its good to also mention that finger genjutsu was nearly broken out of by a BOS Naruto who had terrible ability in actually releasing it. Its not entirely out of the range of possibility, but its unlikely to happen.


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## Bookworm (Mar 21, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> et me lay out your point in steps
> 
> You say MS Sasuke(superior to hebi) was able to react to the raikage
> You then go on to say a weaker base hebi sasuke with 3t is not able to react to the Itachis hand signs
> ...



What makes you think MS Sasuke has superior reactions to Hebi?

Minato's speed may not be entirely dependent on FTG, but it is the reason why he's the fastest. Without FTG he wouldn't be as fast as the Raikage.

I tried to upload, and link the picture but it wouldn't work. It's in chap 462


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## Buuhan (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> What makes you think MS Sasuke has superior reactions to Hebi?
> 
> Minato's speed may not be entirely dependent on FTG, but it is the reason why he's the fastest. Without FTG he wouldn't be as fast as the Raikage.
> 
> I tried to upload, and link the picture but it wouldn't work. It's in chap 462


- He possesses the superior eye so why would it not be the case?
- FTG definitely gives him a mode of transport that is far superior, but Minato has still *physically *reacted to and kept up with the 4th raikage.


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - He possesses the superior eye so why would it not be the case?
> - FTG definitely gives him a mode of transport that is far superior, but Minato has still *physically *reacted to and kept up with the 4th raikage.


- MS is superior, but there nothing that demonstrates it gives superior reaction speed.
- Minato was only able to flick his wrist in that amount of time, even though Raikage had to cover a large distance. 

Itachi was able to physically react to KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time.


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## Zero890 (Mar 22, 2018)

A good use of clones makes the Genjutsu useless (similar to what Kakashi did), Taijutsu is a suicide for Itachi and everything he has is easily avoided by Minato. Itachi is left unable to hurt Minato and dies from exhaustion, if he starts the fight with Taijutsu he loses low diff.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Buuhan (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - MS is superior, but there nothing that demonstrates it gives superior reaction speed.
> - Minato was only able to flick his wrist in that amount of time, even though Raikage had to cover a large distance.
> 
> Itachi was able to physically react to KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time.


- Even if you want to assume that it still stands Minato could perceive the raikage while MS Sasuke couldn't. It doesn't really help your point either way. Sasuke missing something does not equate to Minato missing it. 
- A flick of the wrist for minato is more than enough to create an opening that would kill an opponent. I think your underestimating just how seriously devastating Minatos slightest moves can be. This distance argument is also lacking. We're talking about a top speed shunshin from A4. Nothing about distance will help anybody who can't physically and mentally react. 
- You mean base Bee and a KCM Naruto who entered CQC. He didn't Shunshin at Itachi now did he?


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - Even if you want to assume that it still stands Minato could perceive the raikage while MS Sasuke couldn't. It doesn't really help your point either way. Sasuke missing something does not equate to Minato missing it.
> - A flick of the wrist for minato is more than enough to create an opening that would kill an opponent. I think your underestimating just how seriously devastating Minatos slightest moves can be. This distance argument is also lacking. We're talking about a top speed shunshin from A4. Nothing about distance will help anybody who can't physically and mentally react.
> - You mean base Bee and a KCM Naruto who entered CQC. He didn't Shunshin at Itachi now did he?



- They were in two different situations. 

- That may be true, but the reason I brought it up is to show Minato without FTG isn't _that_ fast. Sasuke did mentally react to Raikage's top speed. It's not that Sasuke couldn't physically react, as he had enough time too: The samurai had enough time to say "AAARGH! put out the flames! WAHHH! They're not ordinary flames! Don't go near" and afterwards Cee thought "The Amaterasu flames that ignite along ones line of sight! That must be it!" So Sasuke more than enough time to physically react, he just didn't know where Raikage was at.

- yeah true, but Itachi did react to lightning.


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## Buuhan (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - They were in two different situations.
> 
> - That may be true, but the reason I brought it up is to show Minato without FTG isn't _that_ fast. Sasuke did mentally react to Raikage's top speed. It's not that Sasuke couldn't physically react, as he had enough time too: The samurai had enough time to say "AAARGH! put out the flames! WAHHH! They're not ordinary flames! Don't go near" and afterwards Cee thought "The Amaterasu flames that ignite along ones line of sight! That must be it!" So Sasuke more than enough time to physically react, he just didn't know where Raikage was at.
> 
> - yeah true, but Itachi did react to lightning.


- So whats your point exactly?

- No thats wrong lol. Sasuke couldn't even perceive the raikage hence why he put up ribcage susanoo. Then he realizes that even with that up he can't afford to take hits from the raikage in shunshin and uses AMA to create an offensive defense. Mentally reacting to him is still inferior to Minato mentally reacting and having the speed to create a plan, and then make the move to enact that same plan(physical movement). Minato has steps to using his jutsu and still out sped the raikage. Susanoo can't be an equivalent because its activation is much faster. Its not a good comparison given the disparity with the chars as well as the mountain of difference in terms of their power activation and mechanics.

- Itachi reacted to Kirin. We see Sasuke literally pull the lightning dragon down for Itachi to behold before firing it. That should've given Itachi enough time to realize he had to use Susanoo which has insane startup speed. I won't outright deny your claim, but the foundations its created upon aren't absolute. To counteract we have Kakashis hype of cutting lightning which can be inferred as him reacting to said lightning. We all know who is faster between Minato and Kakashi, but thats not the best example.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 22, 2018)

Without knowledge Itachi has more chance of getting blitzed compared to Itachi landing a genjutsu 
Speed counters genjutsu,  and forces Itachi to camo into susanoo which he can't do for long eitherway  
Projectiles are outright dodged or redirected 
So it's a matter of outlasting or minato getting opening amidst itachis MS drawback

Reactions: Agree 2


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## narut0ninjafan (Mar 22, 2018)

Minato wins

Itachi doesn't have any instant one shot techniques which you need in order to stand a chance against Minato since your likelihood of landing a hit on him is pretty low

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (Mar 22, 2018)

Ive said in the past that I believe there are avenues for Itachi to take making it possible for him to beat Minato

But Minato has it much easier. So far, those arguing on Itachi's behalf are doing a lot of stretching in order to make their debate points work. No such thing is needed for those saying Minato wins.

Itachi needs a favorable match up condition to beat Minato. Any match that offers equal conditions for both Minato & Itachi will result in Minato's victory. For example, Itachi needs full knowledge so he knows how to handle the kunai and given the ability to act out-of-character so that he will try for Tsukuyomi from the start. 

Otherwise Minato wins

Reactions: Like 3


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - So whats your point exactly?
> 
> - No thats wrong lol. Sasuke couldn't even perceive the raikage hence why he put up ribcage susanoo. Then he realizes that even with that up he can't afford to take hits from the raikage in shunshin and uses AMA to create an offensive defense. Mentally reacting to him is still inferior to Minato mentally reacting and having the speed to create a plan, and then make the move to enact that same plan(physical movement). Minato has steps to using his jutsu and still out sped the raikage. Susanoo can't be an equivalent because its activation is much faster. Its not a good comparison given the disparity with the chars as well as the mountain of difference in terms of their power activation and mechanics.
> 
> - Itachi reacted to Kirin. We see Sasuke literally pull the lightning dragon down for Itachi to behold before firing it. That should've given Itachi enough time to realize he had to use Susanoo which has insane startup speed. I won't outright deny your claim, but the foundations its created upon aren't absolute. To counteract we have Kakashis hype of cutting lightning which can be inferred as him reacting to said lightning. We all know who is faster between Minato and Kakashi, but thats not the best example.


- My point is that you can't use their battles with the Raikage to prove Minato has faster reaction speed.

- Sasuke didn't put up ribcage Susanoo because he couldn't keep up with the Raikage, but to defend against the liger bomb. Sasuke could perceive Raikage, that's why he looked left, after Raikage moved left. If you look back, Sasuke could still see Raikage in his peripherals. The reason Sasuke lost sight of Raikage, was due to the fact he was focusing intently on the afterimage, he was surprised. By the time Sasuke looked left Raikage already moved.

- It's very unlikely that Kakashi reacted to lightning, for one important reason: Kakashi would have to physically react to lightning to cut it with Chidori in the way your suggesting. He likely raised his hand beforehand and the lightning struck his hand, thus it was cut by chidori.


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## Buuhan (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - My point is that you can't use their battles with the Raikage to prove Minato has faster reaction speed.
> 
> - Sasuke didn't put up ribcage Susanoo because he couldn't keep up with the Raikage, but to defend against the liger bomb. Sasuke could perceive Raikage, that's why he looked left, after Raikage moved left. If you look back, Sasuke could still see Raikage in his peripherals. The reason Sasuke lost sight of Raikage, was due to the fact he was focusing intently on the afterimage, he was surprised. By the time Sasuke looked left Raikage already moved.
> 
> - It's very unlikely that Kakashi reacted to lightning, for one important reason: Kakashi would have to physically react to lightning to cut it with Chidori in the way your suggesting. He likely raised his hand beforehand and the lightning struck his hand, thus it was cut by chidori.


- you have been doing that the entire time in trying to disprove minatos speed lol. That’s kind of a double standard don’t you think?

- no sasuke realized he needed to use the rib cage to keep a barrier between himself and the raikage. He wasn’t going to dodge and weave the attacks like they were nothing. If you want to prove to me sasuke could’ve handled the raikages assualt without rib cage and ama go right ahead.

- so why is itachi reacting, but I’m reaching with kakashi reacting to it? If you want to assert itachi who is on his deathbed can react to lightning my assertion with kakashi should have equal footing. There’s no reason to assume it happened any other way. If we will go the route however in assuming kakashi didn’t react to it, then neither did itachi. He simply knew to use susanoo once the dragon re-entered the atmosphere and struck him.


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - It's very unlikely that Kakashi reacted to lightning, for one important reason: Kakashi would have to physically react to lightning to cut it with Chidori in the way your suggesting. He likely raised his hand beforehand and the lightning struck his hand, thus it was cut by chidori.



It was hyped up as Kakashi fully cutting lightning before it hit the ground. This immediately comes to mind as Kakashi jumping upwards and cutting it for me.

In your version, Kakashi magically knows where lightning will strike and is standing with his arm raised waiting fot it


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## Mori Jin (Mar 22, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Minato can't use Sage Mode for long and as we saw one Rasengan was enough to kick him back to base so Minato can't rely on Sage Mode for a majority of the match.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He wouldn't need it to fight him. He'd just need it to sense chakra build up. Plus like I said he is a Natural Sensor, Just like Nagato sensed Itachi getting ready to use amaterasu, Minato would be ready to dissappear using FTG. If the Raikage can dodge it, and Minato dodged a point blank attack from the Raikage, he'd dodge it as well. 

Plus you don't need to see an attack coming to dodge it. Raikage dodged amaterasu before it even touched him. So did Naruto against Kaguya coming out of the portal behind him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - you have been doing that the entire time in trying to disprove minatos speed lol. That’s kind of a double standard don’t you think?
> 
> - no sasuke realized he needed to use the rib cage to keep a barrier between himself and the raikage. He wasn’t going to dodge and weave the attacks like they were nothing. If you want to prove to me sasuke could’ve handled the raikages assualt without rib cage and ama go right ahead.
> 
> - so why is itachi reacting, but I’m reaching with kakashi reacting to it? If you want to assert itachi who is on his deathbed can react to lightning my assertion with kakashi should have equal footing. There’s no reason to assume it happened any other way. If we will go the route however in assuming kakashi didn’t react to it, then neither did itachi. He simply knew to use susanoo once the dragon re-entered the atmosphere and struck him.



- I briefly looked back at pg 2 of this thread and didn't see where you were talking about. Can you post of mine your talking about?

- Sasuke used ribcage when Raikage used liger bomb and simply kept it up. He didn't put it up because he couldn't perceive Raikage. He may needed to keep it up, but that's because he lost sight of Raikage.

- Itachi is simply mentally reacting to lightning, Kakashi would have mentally and physically react to lightning, that's the difference.


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> It was hyped up as Kakashi fully cutting lightning before it hit the ground. This immediately comes to mind as Kakashi jumping upwards and cutting it for me.
> 
> In your version, Kakashi magically knows where lightning will strike and is standing with his arm raised waiting fot it



If the lightning was attracted to his chidori, like a lightning rod, than Kakashi could have cut it that way. If Kakashi could physically react to lightning nobody would be able to defeat in him speed. ​


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## Buuhan (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - I briefly looked back at pg 2 of this thread and didn't see where you were talking about. Can you post of mine your talking about?
> 
> - Sasuke used ribcage when Raikage used liger bomb and simply kept it up. He didn't put it up because he couldn't perceive Raikage. He may needed to keep it up, but that's because he lost sight of Raikage.
> 
> - Itachi is simply mentally reacting to lightning, Kakashi would have mentally and physically react to lightning, that's the difference.


- Your trying to prove Minato isn't fast without FTG by using a comparison between two raikage fights. Im trying to prove the opposite using the same fights. You stated i couldn't compare the two raikage fights to prove my point, but you were doing the same thing. 

- I just looked back at that fight and my argument still holds true. Not only could Sasuke not catch Raikage with AMA, but he used the susanoo to block the strikes he couldn't;t see and counterattack by just stacking black flames on his susanoo. The raikage literally hits him from behind and Sasuke didn't even physcially or mentally note it until physical contact was already made. Nothing indicates this can be used to draw a parallel to Minato somehow being physically slow. 

- Which is more impressive to you? Seeing a punch and getting hit, or seeing a punch and intercepting it with a movement after mentally recognizing it. Kakashis move would have been more impressive then Itachi by that logic and he is still slower than Minato.


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> If the lightning was attracted to his chidori, like a lightning rod, than Kakashi could have cut it that way. If Kakashi could physically react to lightning nobody would be able to defeat in him speed. ​



There is literally no reason for Kakashi to have been hyped to cut lightning other than for his speed and precision. Him standing and attracting lightning isn't really what it seems like he did.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - Your trying to prove Minato isn't fast without FTG by using a comparison between two raikage fights. Im trying to prove the opposite using the same fights. You stated i couldn't compare the two raikage fights to prove my point, but you were doing the same thing.
> 
> - I just looked back at that fight and my argument still holds true. Not only could Sasuke not catch Raikage with AMA, but he used the susanoo to block the strikes he couldn't;t see and counterattack by just stacking black flames on his susanoo. The raikage literally hits him from behind and Sasuke didn't even physcially or mentally note it until physical contact was already made. Nothing indicates this can be used to draw a parallel to Minato somehow being physically slow.
> 
> - Which is more impressive to you? Seeing a punch and getting hit, or seeing a punch and intercepting it with a movement after mentally recognizing it. Kakashis move would have been more impressive then Itachi by that logic and he is still slower than Minato.


- I wasn't trying to prove Minato wasn't fast, without FTG, using the Raikage fights. Minato wasn't the _fastest_ without FTG.

- Sasuke looked back just before Raikage hit his Susanoo, so he did mentally react to Raikage.

- We don't know all the specifics of the situation.


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## Buuhan (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - I wasn't trying to prove Minato wasn't fast, without FTG, using the Raikage fights. Minato wasn't the _fastest_ without FTG.
> 
> - Sasuke looked back just before Raikage hit his Susanoo, so he did mentally react to Raikage.
> 
> - We don't know the specifics of how he cut lightning.


- I don't think anybody thinks he is, but by no means is he slow without it which i agree with. In the grand scheme of things however its enough to outmaneuver Itachi. 

- Yeah missed that panel, but comparing that to Minato physically throwing a Kunai is a bit of a reach don't you think?

- No its implied he literally cut it. We have no reason to believe it happened otherwise.


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - I don't think anybody thinks he is, but by no means is he slow without it which i agree with. In the grand scheme of things however its enough to outmaneuver Itachi.
> 
> - Yeah missed that panel, but comparing that to Minato physically throwing a Kunai is a bit of a reach don't you think?
> 
> - No its implied he literally cut it. We have no reason to believe it happened otherwise.



- Minato can potentially outmaneuver Itachi with FTG, but Itachi can do the same with KB

- Either way it's not like Sasuke didn't more than enough time to move. 

- I meant that we don't if he reacted to lightning or if he put has hand up beforehand.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 22, 2018)

MS doesn't improve the reaction, but it _does_ improve the* sharingan's perception* leaving more room for the user to react. We saw that with an increase in perception after obtaining the 3 toma Sasuke went from getting negged blitzed by KN0, to being able to keep up with him cleanly and overwhelm him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> MS doesn't improve the reaction, but it _does_ improve the* sharingan's perception* leaving more room for the user to react. We saw that with an increase in perception after obtaining the 3 toma Sasuke went from getting negged blitzed by KN0, to being able to keep up with him cleanly and overwhelm him.


The MS was never shown to increase perception.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> The MS was never shown to increase perception.


almost every development of the sharingan granted the user an increase in perception, why wouldn't the far superior MS?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 22, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> almost every development of the sharingan granted the user an increase in perception, why wouldn't the far superior MS?



Being superior doesn't mean its superior in all facets.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Buuhan (Mar 22, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - Minato can potentially outmaneuver Itachi with FTG, but Itachi can do the same with KB
> 
> - Either way it's not like Sasuke didn't more than enough time to move.
> 
> - I meant that we don't if he reacted to lightning or if he put has hand up beforehand.


- No Minato will outmaneuver him with FTG otherwise he would've died to far faster opponents in the form of the raikage. Itachi might have kage bunshin, but they're of equal speed to him. If Itachi can be out maneuvered so can his Bunshin.

- No he could only look back. He needed a susanoo to stop the raikage from making physical contact.

- Lets see the statement was Kakashi cutting lightning. Lets see which interpretation sounds better.

Kakashi reacted to and cut a lightning bolt.
Kakashi lifted his hand during a thunderstorm and his chakra accidentally drew in a lightning bolt which he cut.
- I mean cmon you have to make 2 or 3 assumptions for your point to have a basis.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Bonly (Mar 23, 2018)

Mori Jin said:


> He wouldn't need it to fight him. He'd just need it to sense chakra build up.



Which again he can't use really. Minato himself said it takes way to long and it doesn't last long. You mentioning Sage Mode as if it's gonna do much of anything in order to fight against Sharingan Genjutsu is false hence why I brought the scan.



> Plus like I said he is a Natural Sensor, Just like Nagato sensed Itachi getting ready to use amaterasu, Minato would be ready to dissappear using FTG. If the Raikage can dodge it, and Minato dodged a point blank attack from the Raikage, he'd dodge it as well.



I don't care about Ama. You said 

"He wouldn't need to look at him to sense him trying to use some Sharingan Genjutsu. Minato is a Natural Sensor anyway, he'd hightail it out of there or switch with a clone if he needs to." 

I'm only talking about sensing vs Genjutsu which you brought up. Nothing more and nothing less.



> Plus you don't need to see an attack coming to dodge it. Raikage dodged amaterasu before it even touched him. So did Naruto against Kaguya coming out of the portal behind him.



You missed the point of the scan. The point was to show that while sensing is good, normal sensing isn't a replacement for eye sight hence Jiraiya's statement so you saying that Minato can just fight with his sensing alone is flawed


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Mar 23, 2018)

Itachi negative difficulty..his noneye contact illusions which not even the best sensors including Ao who saw through Kotoamatsukami couldnt detect, will be undetectable to Minato .....Itachi can control multiple individuals so good bye to toad summons who'll rip minato's contract, an another one...........Susano'O is seperate from user, it's not linked through chakra which is BD from the very notion founding.......Itachi can use Tsukiyomi without eye contact from inside Susano'O by merging it with his non eye contact Genjutsu prowess....Tsukiyomi can destroy the cells and soul of his body in the Tsukiyomi Realm as per Databook and Kakashi agreement to Itachi's Words that it could have slaughtered him...........

And.......Itachi's mental reactions are too much for Minato who doesnt have lightspeed reactions whereas former reacted to Kirin which was said to be lightfast in travel speed.....Itachi's eyes can keep up with Minato just fine and slaughter him with his bare foot speed which manhandled Hebi Sasuke who is said to possess god-like speed which is on par with V1 A.........He can blitz Minato when he appears in the marking...if he marks him then Itachi can easily react to the FTG kunai slash and kick him away for good as Itachi's CQC manhandled KCM Naruto despite latter's enormous strength because of Kyuubi chakra and has literally shown to be faster than Naruto's reaction and hand speed. Minato didnt move faster than A which is such an overrated scene, the Kunai..........was marked already and on bee's tails which Itachi clone feinted and easily dodged and then another dodge from a combined attack of KCM and Samehada Bee from his sides......Itachi has shown the ability to literally fight blind as he knew Sasuke's location after his eyes became white and in part one he recognized Sasuke without turning back...........his shurikens are so fast Nagato didnt realize his shared vision was blocked before Itachi speed blitzed the living hell out of him with a Susano'O hand.......his shurikens are nigh untraceable as Kabuto commemted Itachi was perfectly creating blind spots where there's no one.......Susano'O activation speed is too fast so Minato could be slapped by a hand and then Totsuka blitzed/Yata converted into sword pierced......if he gets marked it could be removed by Yata negating the marking by changing it's attributes to the marking's........all in all Itachi's crows could put him in genjutsu.....finger genjutsu was 30% yet rekt naruto who had help from kyuubi's chakra to break it visualized by whiskers yet couldnt......Itachi was holding back in that fight as well because he smiled......if you're fighting to kill you wont smile after getting hit with a rasengan.............Itachi negative difficulty win.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Creative 1


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## Kisame (Mar 23, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Itachi negative difficulty..his noneye contact illusions which not even the best sensors including Ao who saw through Kotoamatsukami couldnt detect, will be undetectable to Minato .....Itachi can control multiple individuals so good bye to toad summons who'll rip minato's contract, an another one...........Susano'O is seperate from user, it's not linked through chakra which is BD from the very notion founding.......Itachi can use Tsukiyomi without eye contact from inside Susano'O by merging it with his non eye contact Genjutsu prowess....Tsukiyomi can destroy the cells and soul of his body in the Tsukiyomi Realm as per Databook and Kakashi agreement to Itachi's Words that it could have slaughtered him...........
> 
> And.......Itachi's mental reactions are too much for Minato who doesnt have lightspeed reactions whereas former reacted to Kirin which was said to be lightfast in travel speed.....Itachi's eyes can keep up with Minato just fine and slaughter him with his bare foot speed which manhandled Hebi Sasuke who is said to possess god-like speed which is on par with V1 A.........He can blitz Minato when he appears in the marking...if he marks him then Itachi can easily react to the FTG kunai slash and kick him away for good as Itachi's CQC manhandled KCM Naruto despite latter's enormous strength because of Kyuubi chakra and has literally shown to be faster than Naruto's reaction and hand speed. Minato didnt move faster than A which is such an overrated scene, the Kunai..........was marked already and on bee's tails which Itachi clone feinted and easily dodged and then another dodge from a combined attack of KCM and Samehada Bee from his sides......Itachi has shown the ability to literally fight blind as he knew Sasuke's location after his eyes became white and in part one he recognized Sasuke without turning back...........his shurikens are so fast Nagato didnt realize his shared vision was blocked before Itachi speed blitzed the living hell out of him with a Susano'O hand.......his shurikens are nigh untraceable as Kabuto commemted Itachi was perfectly creating blind spots where there's no one.......Susano'O activation speed is too fast so Minato could be slapped by a hand and then Totsuka blitzed/Yata converted into sword pierced......if he gets marked it could be removed by Yata negating the marking by changing it's attributes to the marking's........all in all Itachi's crows could put him in genjutsu.....finger genjutsu was 30% yet rekt naruto who had help from kyuubi's chakra to break it visualized by whiskers yet couldnt......Itachi was holding back in that fight as well because he smiled......if you're fighting to kill you wont smile after getting hit with a rasengan.............Itachi negative difficulty win.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 23, 2018)

Come to think of it, where the hell did edo Itachi get a bunch of kunai and shuriken to throw at Nagato?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Creative 1


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## Buuhan (Mar 23, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Come to think of it, where the hell did edo Itachi get a bunch of kunai and shuriken to throw at Nagato?


IIRC the reanimations are based off corpses so the ninja willing him back Into existence might have had some. Still doesn’t explain why minato has his as well.


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## Kisame (Mar 23, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Come to think of it, where the hell did edo Itachi get a bunch of kunai and shuriken to throw at Nagato?


Kishi


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## Santoryu (Mar 23, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Mar 23, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - No Minato will outmaneuver him with FTG otherwise he would've died to far faster opponents in the form of the raikage. Itachi might have kage bunshin, but they're of equal speed to him. If Itachi can be out maneuvered so can his Bunshin.
> 
> - No he could only look back. He needed a susanoo to stop the raikage from making physical contact.
> 
> ...



- Like I said before, Itachi can create KBs out of nowhere, instantly and through that tactic, catch Minato off guard. It's one thing to react to someone you expect to come at you, it's another thing completely to react to someone who comes out of nowhere in an instant. 

- Between the time Raikage dodged Amaterasu and the time he chopped ribcage Susanoo, 3 or 4 people were each able to make statements back to back, that's enough time to move. Look back at the chapter. 

- Kakashi cutting and physically reacting to lightning requires more than you shown:

Kakashi mentally reacted to lightning, Kakashi physically reacted to lightning by lifted his arm up and Kakashi cut the lightning. 
Regardless Kakashi physically reacting to lightning is ridiculous enough that it would likely never happen.


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## Buuhan (Mar 23, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - Like I said before, Itachi can create KBs out of nowhere, instantly and through that tactic, catch Minato off guard. It's one thing to react to someone you expect to come at you, it's another thing completely to react to someone who comes out of nowhere in an instant.
> 
> - Between the time Raikage dodged Amaterasu and the time he chopped ribcage Susanoo, 3 or 4 people were each able to make statements back to back, that's enough time to move. Look back at the chapter.
> 
> ...


- kinda like Minato reacting to obito warping him from behind and warping out with Flying thunder god.

- statements occurring during fight scenes is the worst argument for speed inside a fictional setting. DB characters can move in excess of 100s of Mach’s at the least, but often times make remarks during those very fights. If we use those as indicators there speed would be nowhere near what is portrayed. Sasuke barely reacted and already had a defense up while minato did casually. He reacted physically and mentally in superior ways to sasuke. 

- except the statement is there and it’s easy to assume what was meant.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 23, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> There is literally no reason for Kakashi to have been hyped to cut lightning other than for his speed and precision. Him standing and attracting lightning isn't really what it seems like he did.


Databook stated that  when Kakashi attempted to use his new refined Chidori it accidentally acted as a lightning rod, he then used his "Raikri" to cut the lightning

Kakashi didn't physically react to lightning

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 23, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Databook stated that  when Kakashi attempted to use his new refined Chidori it accidentally acted as a lightning rod, he then used his "Raikri" to cut the lightning
> 
> Kakashi didn't physically react to lightning



Which one? What page?


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## Kisame (Mar 23, 2018)

Kakashi cutting lightning is nothing more than hyperbole for Raikiri.

"reacting to lightning" was never really the point.


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## Buuhan (Mar 23, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Databook stated that  when Kakashi attempted to use his new refined Chidori it accidentally acted as a lightning rod, he then used his "Raikri" to cut the lightning
> 
> Kakashi didn't physically react to lightning


Yeah I’d like a citation on that actually. Not doubting you, but physical proof would be nice.



Shark said:


> Kakashi cutting lightning is nothing more than hyperbole for Raikiri.
> 
> "reacting to lightning" was never really the point.


- it’s pretty tedious to discuss its relevance when itachi reacting to a said lightning speed attack is being used to counter minatos speed in this thread.


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## Bookworm (Mar 23, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> - kinda like Minato reacting to obito warping him from behind and warping out with Flying thunder god.
> 
> - statements occurring during fight scenes is the worst argument for speed inside a fictional setting. DB characters can move in excess of 100s of Mach’s at the least, but often times make remarks during those very fights. If we use those as indicators there speed would be nowhere near what is portrayed. Sasuke barely reacted and already had a defense up while minato did casually. He reacted physically and mentally in superior ways to sasuke.
> 
> - except the statement is there and it’s easy to assume what was meant.



- It's different. Tobi slowly reached for Minato. Not to mention it's possible to create KB closer than that, for an instant attack. Besides if Minato looks back to attack the KB Itachi can attack him from the front. Itachi can choose to create a kb in front of Minato or to the side of himself for an genjutsu, than Minato would lose.

- So C and Samurai were thinking at super fast speeds?

- Are you assuming that he physically reacted to lightning?


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## Buuhan (Mar 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - It's different. Tobi slowly reached for Minato. Not to mention it's possible to create KB closer than that, for an instant attack. Besides if Minato looks back to attack the KB Itachi can attack him from the front. Itachi can choose to create a kb in front of Minato or to the side of himself for an genjutsu, than Minato would lose.
> 
> - So C and Samurai were thinking at super fast speeds?
> 
> - Are you assuming that he physically reacted to lightning?


Cmon really lol he was warping him into kamui and we both know how fast that was. That is what minato escaped. Itachi is not quick enough to move behind minato create a bunshin move infront and attack in both directions before minato can react. Itachi needs to rely on something other than speed to win this matchup.

- there you go again using the same weak argument. Just because people speak during a battle does not mean that they are speaking at incredible speeds or that the battle is slower that portrayed. This is a common occurrence in fiction and I think you know that it has no bearing on the raikages speed. I mean cmon your trying to argue the raikage is slow because people made statements while he was attacking sasuke?

- your responding with small counter statements that instead of providing proof against me, simply ask a question based on my answer. If you want to assume kakashi did not react to lightning, then itachi did not either because he in fact reacted to a lightning dragon brought down and guided by sasukes chakra; not a natural bolt.


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## Bookworm (Mar 24, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Cmon really lol he was warping him into kamui and we both know how fast that was. That is what minato escaped. Itachi is not quick enough to move behind minato create a bunshin move infront and attack in both directions before minato can react. Itachi needs to rely on something other than speed to win this matchup.
> 
> - there you go again using the same weak argument. Just because people speak during a battle does not mean that they are speaking at incredible speeds or that the battle is slower that portrayed. This is a common occurrence in fiction and I think you know that it has no bearing on the raikages speed. I mean cmon your trying to argue the raikage is slow because people made statements while he was attacking sasuke?
> 
> - your responding with small counter statements that instead of providing proof against me, simply ask a question based on my answer. If you want to assume kakashi did not react to lightning, then itachi did not either because he in fact reacted to a lightning dragon brought down and guided by sasukes chakra; not a natural bolt.



- That's not what I'm saying. Itachi can create a KB behind Minato, if Minato turns around to attack, than the real Itachi can attack his now turned around back.

- All I'm saying is that Sasuke had enough time to move his body, not that Raikage is slow. If they weren't thinking/speaking super fast, what speed were they thinking/speaking at?

- Ok, Sasuke said Kirin was unavoidable due to the speed, Itachi mentally reacted to lightning. Kakashi would have to mentally _and_ physically react. Itachi would have only had to mentally react, that's the difference you keep glossing over. It's not like you provided proof that Kakashi physically reacted to lightning.


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## Buuhan (Mar 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> - That's not what I'm saying. Itachi can create a KB behind Minato, if Minato turns around to attack, than the real Itachi can attack his now turned around back.
> 
> - All I'm saying is that Sasuke had enough time to move his body, not that Raikage is slow. If they weren't thinking/speaking super fast, what speed were they thinking/speaking at?
> 
> - Ok, Sasuke said Kirin was unavoidable due to the speed, Itachi mentally reacted to lightning. Kakashi would have to mentally _and_ physically react. Itachi would have only had to mentally react, that's the difference you keep glossing over. It's not like you provided proof that Kakashi physically reacted to lightning.


- why would Minato turn around instead of warping to a kunai far off where he can see both itachis head on? A lot of assumptions in your post. 

- He turned his head and glanced back while he had an active defense. Minato reacted to the raikage mid movement. Its superior. I don't understand why you keep ignoring every word im telling you. During DBZ fights many times regular humans area able to make statements regarding things occurring within the fight. So by your logic which im explicitly using here DBZ top tiers are slower than human thought and speech. In all of fiction character statements are made during fights where opponents are moving at superior speeds to those viewing. If your seriously going to try and use that cop out argument here when you know its wrong im going to start questioning if your debating in good faith. Your point would mean A4 is significantly slower than the thought thought process of C and by definition it would imply C is able to react to A4 v2 Shunshin which is absurd. 

- Oh man you keep steering this into tangents. If Sasuke never tested the ability how would he know that? Im am however going to give that statement the benefit of the doubt even though its vague(unlike your denial of Kakashi statement). So let us say its unavoidable. You still haven't explained away the fact Sasuke showed Itachi the technique before sending it his way(which would allow for him to think of countermeasures before hand). Even if you want to say yes Itachi reacted to the move what bearing does this have on him fighting Minato? 
-The proof is in the damn statement. What do you want me to do pull a panel that doesn't exist? The statement is pretty clear in what its implying so i don't know what more you want really. Its a cut and dry situation where your explanation requires added variables we can't assume.


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## Mori Jin (Mar 25, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Which again he can't use really. Minato himself said it takes way to long and it doesn't last long. You mentioning Sage Mode as if it's gonna do much of anything in order to fight against Sharingan Genjutsu is false hence why I brought the scan.
> 
> He said it took long to build up, yet did it in 1 or 2 panels. Even then he can have a clone do it for him. Sage Mode is superior to the Sharinagn, so yes it would be a huge benefit. You saying otherwise is not changing that.
> 
> ...



Nagato did it just fine. If Itachi was his opponent, he would have sensed the chakra and reacted accordingly. In this case absorbing the Amaterasu. Minato would just dissappear and come up with a plan. You denying it is flawed. Naruto using his sensing ability, instead of his eyes to react to Kaguya speed, goes to show that yes Sensing can and has been used -succesfully- in replacement to eye sight.

Minato's speed + Sensing + Firepower, is more than enough to take out Itachi.


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