# 3rd Raikage vs. Tobirama



## Batman4Life (May 27, 2014)

I dont know if this has been done before, but who wins?

Where: VotE
Restrictions: Edo for Tobirama
Mindset: To kill


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## ARGUS (May 27, 2014)

Third Raikage wins this,,

-His RNY effortlessly tanks all of Tobiramas attacks with little to no damage
-Intel matters here,, but assuming that the intel is manga,,, means that tobiramas chances of  winning are very low,,,,, as Third Raikage would eventually get him through HFN


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## MysteriousD (May 27, 2014)

Tobirama leaves the battlefield in style (teleports) once he gets tired.

Which he will, since 3rd is immune to or tanks nearly all his arsenal and has 3 days worth +an army in his gas tank.

Tobirama is too smart to get killed here and Im afraid 3rd cant stop him once he wants to leave.

Unless escape isnt an option...


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## Katou (May 27, 2014)

Drowns him and Let 3rd Raikage Electrocute himself. . 

Just kidding  

Ends in Tobirama escaping


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## Cognitios (May 27, 2014)

Ends in a stamina match. 
Who has more stamina Raikagenaut or Shodai's brother?


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## Katou (May 27, 2014)

Who knows. .they're both ET . . so stamina or chakra running out is invalid


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 27, 2014)

Tobirama wins. True, he has nothing to damage the Sandaime Raikage in his arsenal, but he does have extremely high intelligence and the Hiraishin which will make it hard for Sandaime to tag. Send out a couple Kage Bushins and Tobirama will eventually figure out the only thing Sandaime can hurt is himself, and he's physically strong enough to make that happen OR just pushes with his chakra.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

Tobirama can't do shit to the Raikage, as soon as he lands a hit he wins


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Tobirama can't do shit to the Raikage, as soon as he lands a hit he wins


So Tobirama is incapable of finding out the weakness like Naruto did? Even though he can use Kage Bushins, Hiraishin, and use Suitons to keep Sandaime at bay?


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## Katou (May 27, 2014)

Tobirama ain't no Dumb shit. . . He'll do a better job than what Naruto did . .


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## Rocky (May 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So Tobirama is incapable of finding out the weakness like Naruto did? Even though he can use Kage Bushins, Hiraishin, and use Suitons to keep Sandaime at bay?



Why would Sandaime even use his 1-Finger Nukite after realizing Tobirama has _nothing_ that can damage him? Using his strongest spear would give Tobirama the means to win the fight, which is dumb because 2 or 3 fingers would shred Nindaime all the same.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Why would Sandaime even use his 1-Finger Nukite after realizing Tobirama has _nothing_ that can damage him? Using his strongest spear would give Tobirama the means to win the fight, which is dumb because 2 or 3 fingers would shred Nindaime all the same.


I'm thinking Sandaime, based on Tobirama's rep, would use his strongest weapon against Tobirama.


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## Rocky (May 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I'm thinking Sandaime, based on Tobirama's rep, would use his strongest weapon against Tobirama.



Why.

There isn't any reason to do that when 2-finger can make Tobirama just as dead.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Why.
> 
> There isn't any reason to do that when 2-finger can make Tobirama just as dead.


Probably out of respect. Sandaime always seemed to be a very honorable fighter when in combat.


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## Rocky (May 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Probably out of respect. Sandaime always seemed to be a very honorable fighter when in combat.



I don't think respect is worth giving your opponent offense.

I'm sure Sandaime will still have plenty of respect for the Hokage while he's stabbing him to death with two fingers as opposed to one.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 27, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't think respect is worth giving your opponent offense.
> 
> I'm sure Sandaime will still have plenty of respect for the Hokage while he's stabbing him to death with two fingers as opposed to one.


And...with Hiraishin, can Sandaime even touch him?


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## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Yeah i don't see how tobirama harms him.  Sandaime raikage isn't going to use something above four fingers, and I don't even know if tobirama has the means to propel it back into him.

Tobirama is clearly portrayed to be the stronger of the two combatants though.


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## Katou (May 27, 2014)

is Destruction feats only capable of killing someone? 

Plenty of ways to kill someone with High Durability


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## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Wallachia said:


> is Destruction feats only capable of killing someone?
> 
> Plenty of ways to kill someone with High Durability


agreed, but does the tobirama in this thread possess one of those non-destructive ways to kill someone with sandaime's durability?


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## Katou (May 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> agreed, but does the tobirama in this thread possess one of those non-destructive ways to kill someone with sandaime's durability?



Hmm lots of ways. . 

He should be able to make Poison with a Jutsu  

or drown him with Water Prison barrier . . something like that . .

he should be fast enough to pull those off . . but i don't think those will be enough . .  

Sealing is his best option really . .


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## LHMC (May 27, 2014)

Teleport away and then teleport back with his brother.


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## trance (May 27, 2014)

Raikagenaut's durability is too much for Tobirama to overcome. Suitons will do little more than annoy a guy who essentially no sold Naruto's "Rasenshuriken" and stamina wise, he's outclassed too since Raikagenaut was able to push a biju to his limit. Tobirama is faster but he can't avoid Raikagenaut forever. With feats, I'd give it to Raikagenaut more times than not. Portrayal wise, Tobirama is stronger.


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## Katou (May 27, 2014)

LHMC said:


> Teleport away and then teleport back with his brother.



if that were the case. . wouldn't they stomp


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## Bonly (May 27, 2014)

I'd go with the Sandaime more times then not, Tobi doesn't have anything to get past the Sandaime's defense and Tobi doesn't have the stamina to suggest he can outlast the Sandaime either. Tobi goes down eventually.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 27, 2014)

Tobirama's speed and reactions coupled with Hirashin will make him an impossible target for the Raikage, while in the meanwhile none of his ordinary attacks will do a thing and it's unlikely the Raikage will use Ippon Nukitie for an extended enough period of time for Tobirama to replicate Naruto's tactic. And for that matter, I don't think he has the requisite physical power to pull it off. But I do think, however, that he can use Taijuu Kage Bunshin and have them use Gojou Kibaku Fuda in succession to remove the Raikage's cloak and then kill him. If that fails, well then the Raikage outlasts him. But I'm pretty sure it would work. I'll give it to Tobirama 9 times out of 10 with high difficulty.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2014)

3rd Raikage wins. 

He is stronger than Tobirama by both feats and hype.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 27, 2014)

Third raikage pierces him eventually and tobirama has nothing to take him out.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 27, 2014)

Tobirama is intelligent. I'd put my money on him placing a Hiraishin seal on the Sandaime's arm, that way he could try to force him into impaling himself with the Nukite. That being said, the Sandaime is physically very strong, if Tobirama tries to make him impale himself he can likely resist the Nidaime's attempt to some extent. Forcing the Sandaime into completely shoving his arm through his chest would be a very difficult task, and one I'm not sure Tobirama can pull off.

I do think Tobirama is generally a bit stronger than the Sandaime Raikage, but this is just a bad match-up for him. He loses.​​


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## Bonly (May 27, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> But I do think, however, that he can use Taijuu Kage Bunshin and have them use Gojou Kibaku Fuda in succession to remove the Raikage's cloak and then kill him.



OP said Edo Tensei was restricted for Tobi so he can't use Gojou Kibaku Fuda


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## krolk88 (May 27, 2014)

It's not said if they're ET...if they're,then tobirama just FTG's away as he cant do enough charm against the 3rd to get a window for sealing him.If they're alive though,i can see the 3rd lose once he starts using 1 finger nukite,if he doesnt however its a stalemate,unless tobirama can sink him in his water which is unlikely.

If he does use 1 finger,Tobirama wins high-extreme difficulty.


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## Thunder (May 27, 2014)

I agree with those saying Tobirama wins. Feats aside, I think it's pretty clear Kishimoto intended for Tobirama to be stronger than _all _of the past Kage, not just the Sandaime Raikage. The strongest Kage hail from the Senju brothers generation. Which makes sense, as the shinobi world was going through some birth pains in those days. It was on the cusp of a whole new era, free from constant war which is all they knew originally. Hiraishin, Kage Bunshin, and Edo Tensei all came into existence during that time of great advances, and Tobirama was responsible for inventing those amazing jutsu. And probably many more that we haven't seen yet.

Something else to consider. Tobirama is _alive_ here which means he should be a bit stronger than what we saw in canon. To what extent is unknown of course, but we can still  be reasonable and rely on our imaginations a tad. Personally, I believe Tobirama's physical attributes attributed to his Senju body will see a boost, along with his chakra potency. Not sure if the OP is taking this into account here though, probably not. 

The biggest hassle for Tobirama here will be devising a workable plan to break through the strongest shield. A tall order for most shinobi. But between Hiraishin, chakra sensing, and some powerful jutsu that can redirect Jigokuzuki  back at the Sandaime Raikage (e.g. Suiton: Suidanha), Tobirama may find some success if relies on his vast wealth of experience and brilliant mind.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2014)

I think Sandaime-Raikage gets underestimated due to his defeat at the hands of "dat"-clone. But realistically "dat"-clone was much stronger than your average clone.. For example look at how easily Obito WTF-PWNS a KCM-Naruto clone here. There is simply no way the KCM-clone Obito pwned [the average KCM-clone] is suppose to be seen as equally as strong as "dat"-clone, who was able to: hit Muu mid Jinton blast with a planetary-rasengan before Mu could even react, outmaneuvering someone that Naruto himself consider very fast, throwing around Chou Oddoma-Rasengan in base, tanking Susano'o hits, etc.... Naurto was obviously channeling a-lot of his KCM-power to that "dat"-clone specifically enabling "dat"-clone to out-perform other KCM clones so drastically. 

Besides that people like to try to boil that fighting down to just Naruto vs Sandaime-Raikage, but really it was Sandaime-Raikage vs that entire division and it was simply "dat"-clone leading the charge. "dat"-clone would have never gotten the intel if not for Inoichi & B. He wouldn't he survived long enough to put that intel to use without the efforts of Temari, Dodai, and the others. 

Finally on-top of that Sandaime-Raikage was controlled by Kabuto who obviously did not know Sandaime-Raikage's weaknesses as well as Sandaime did. He lacked the Amber-Sealing-Jar, and who knows why his Kuro-Kaminari was afk.

Anyway, if we look at Sandaime-Raikage's accomplishments when he was at his best, He took on Hachibi solo and it seems like Hachibi got lucky more than anything else that Sandaime fell on his own HB otherwise, Sandaime would have won. He put up a very good fight against a 10,000 strong army. I feel as if Tobirama would perform in his own way decently against these enemies -- he'd probably also beat Hachibi and probably kill a huge number of the 10,000 strong army before finally being defeated -- however I can't see him accomplishing ether achievement with anything short of high-difficulty, given his portrayal. And given his current "feats" - which he's had more time to accumulate than Sandaime-Raikage had time to accumulate his "feats" -- I feel as if he'd be pushed to at least extremely-high difficulty. 

Beyond that by sheer virtue of the fact that Gin & Kin defeated Tobirama in the past, it should be clear that Tobirama would have one hell of a time fighting Sandaime-Raikage. If it was the SO6P's treasure tools that defeated Tobirama, Sandaime-Raikage is packing by far thee strongest one in the form of the Amber-Sealing-Jar, so that should also push Tobirama extensively here. If it was Kin/GIn's V2 shrouds and durability that led to Tobirama's defeat than Sandaime-Raikage's "strongest-shield" should also pressure him extensively. If it was Gin/Kin's brute force, than Sandaime-Raikage's physicality and Hell-Bringer should push Tobirama as well. If it was something we haven't seen from Gin/Kin such as them perhaps being able to use a certain level of Bijuu-Bomb, than Sandaime-Raikage has his own upside potential in destructive jutsu via Kuro-Kaminari, which is current the goto weapon of S06P Sasuke, and while Sandaime-Raikage's Kuro-Kaminari is probably no where near as good as Sasuke's, I think we can expect Gin/Kin's Bijuu-Bombs weren't anywhere near the best Bijuu-Bombs, even combined.

So yeah given what the manga has shown I fully expect Sandaime-Raikage to have a chance at beating Tobirama. Tobirama's odds of winning are better imo, but only to the point where i'd feel comfortable giving Tobirama 6/10 matches at high to extremely high diff.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> OP said Edo Tensei was restricted for Tobi so he can't use Gojou Kibaku Fuda



I don't see why that restricts that jutsu at all. He can just summon the tags since it's not as if Edo bodies are made up of explosive tags. He used Edo Tensei to do it because it has to be initiated at close range to the person using it which means death. Which is irrelevant for an Edo of course so he deigned to use it with his Edo body. He might very well have used it with Kage Bunshin since he never stated he only used it with his Edo. And that style of using Bunshin as fill ins for himself is what Kakashi calls the proper protocol for them, and given that he invented Kage Bunshin and seems to love protocols and definitely used Edos in that way, I would surmise that such a move is completely doable for him and within the range of his thought process.


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## Bonly (May 27, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I don't see why that restricts that jutsu at all. He can just summon the tags since it's not as if Edo bodies are made up of explosive tags. He used Edo Tensei to do it because it has to be initiated at close range to the person using it which means death. Which is irrelevant for an Edo of course so he deigned to use it with his Edo body. He might very well have used it with Kage Bunshin since he never stated he only used it with his Edo. And that style of using Bunshin as fill ins for himself is what Kakashi calls the proper protocol for them, and given that he invented Kage Bunshin and seems to love protocols and definitely used Edos in that way, I would surmise that such a move is completely doable for him and within the range of his thought process.



Tobi as an Edo stuck his hand inside his own body and then pulled out the tags. He also stated that he create fighting techniques for Edo Tensei as well while doing it. It seems more like the jutsu is to be used with Edo rather then him carrying the tags on him or him summoning them(if he even can do that) and being able to use it by myself.


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## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think Sandaime-Raikage gets underestimated due to his defeat at the hands of "dat"-clone. But realistically "dat"-clone was much stronger than your average clone.. For example look at how easily Obito WTF-PWNS a KCM-Naruto clone here. There is simply no way the KCM-clone Obito pwned [the average KCM-clone] is suppose to be seen as equally as strong as "dat"-clone, who was able to: hit Muu mid Jinton blast with a planetary-rasengan before Mu could even react, outmaneuvering someone that Naruto himself consider very fast, throwing around Chou Oddoma-Rasengan in base, tanking Susano'o hits, etc.... Naurto was obviously channeling a-lot of his KCM-power to that "dat"-clone specifically enabling "dat"-clone to out-perform other KCM clones so drastically.


Why does Obito doing that to a KCM clone mean he wouldn't be able to do it to the clone that fought sandaime and co?  That would just mean that Obito is just very strong, that that's exactly what we see with the real KCM Naruto having to retreat from him.  

I don't see how someone as powerfully portrayed as Rinnegan Obito dispatching a KCM clone who's entire actions were oriented around allowing the real naruto an opening to hit Obito would mean it's any weaker than datclone.  What in the manga implied that datclone was faster, more durable, had the ability to use more powerful attacks, was more reflexive etc than the clone that obito popped?  Nothing, just like nothing implied that the other 12 were any different from the one we saw fight sandaime raikage.

Naruto's base clones didn't even get hit by susanoo, and FRS requires miles more chakra than chou oodama rasengan.  Plus the KCM Naruto that attacked obito HAD to have had more chakra than datclone since datclone lost his chakra cloak after trying to make a bijuurasengan.  

Naruto has never shown or implied to have the the ability to remotely power up any of his clones, and has never been shown or implied to have the ability to remotely increase the power of one of his clones while weakening the rest of them.

the performance argument is completely ridiculous and would lead you to conclude things like 7th gated Gai >>>>>> EMS Sasuke.



Turrin said:


> Besides that people like to try to boil that fighting down to just Naruto vs Sandaime-Raikage, but really it was Sandaime-Raikage vs that entire division and it was simply "dat"-clone leading the charge. "dat"-clone would have never gotten the intel if not for Inoichi & B. He wouldn't he survived long enough to put that intel to use without the efforts of Temari, Dodai, and the others.


Yep, but all that is made up for by the fact that sandaime raikage was an edo tensei with the most powerful regen in the manga.  Without that, Sandaime vs naruto never gets to the alliance since his body was clearly affected by the microscopic attacks of FRS.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Why does Obito doing that to a KCM clone mean he wouldn't be able to do it to the clone that fought sandaime and co?  That would just mean that Obito is just very strong, that that's exactly what we see with the real KCM Naruto having to retreat from him.
> .


How is it hard to understand that a clone which gets KO'd by a casual fan hit is not as good as one that it's tangling with Kages. Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that casual fan hit is beyond the level of things that "dat"-clone ran up against. Are you really going to tell me all clones are created equally when casual fan hit dispersed the one used against Obito while we see another KCM clone get hit by three swords and not disperse. 

Are you really telling me Kimimaro and Black-Zetsu are superior to Sandaime-Raikage, because the KCM-clones fighting those two couldn't defeat them, but "dat"-clone defeated Sandaime-Raikage.



> Naruto's base clones didn't even get hit by susanoo,


Yes they did



> and FRS requires miles more chakra than chou oodama rasengan


Okay, and your point is what. "Dat" clone used a ton of shit besides Chou Oddoma Rasengan.



> Plus the KCM Naruto that attacked obito HAD to have had more chakra than datclone since datclone lost his chakra cloak after trying to make a bijuurasengan.


 "Dat"-clone was clearly trying to make a bigger Bijuu-dama-rasengan than mini. The KCM-clone Naruto created against Obito had the help of the real Naruto as well. So this is a terrible comparison.



> Naruto has never shown or implied to have the the ability to remotely power up any of his clones, and has never been shown or implied to have the ability to remotely increase the power of one of his clones while weakening the rest of them.


Naruto has been directly shown to have the ability to funnel more kyuubi-chakra to individuals than others. For example when he had already given the shrouds to everyone, he funnels more to Shikkamaru to save his life. That's just one example. So there is absolutely no reason he can't do that with a clone, heck Kurama himself does that with his chakra and specifically "dat"-clone.



> the performance argument is completely ridiculous and would lead you to conclude things like 7th gated Gai >>>>>> EMS Sasuke.


What the hell does 7th-Gated Gai and EMS Sasuke have to do with anything lol.



> Yep, but all that is made up for by the fact that sandaime raikage was an edo tensei with the most powerful regen in the manga. Without that, Sandaime vs naruto never gets to the alliance since his body was clearly affected by the microscopic attacks of FRS.


Guess I didn't get my copy of the electronic microscope that was included in ch 554 and that allowed us to see the level of internal damage FRS did


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## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How is it hard to understand that a clone which gets KO'd by a casual fan hit is not as good as one that it's tangling with Kages. Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that casual fan hit is beyond the level of things that "dat"-clone ran up against. Are you really going to tell me all clones are created equally when casual fan hit dispersed the one used against Obito while we see another KCM clone get hit by three swords and not disperse.


Put datclone in the same situation as the KCM clone and tell me how he fairs any different.  Is datclone... faster?  Stronger?  More reflexive?  more durable?

Portrayal right?  Datclone was up against opponents who are TIERS below rinnegan obito so of course he's going to do much better against those kages versus fighting Rinnegan Obito with a kamikaze mindset.

Also, Obito's fan hits are powerful enough to pop any of the KCM clones we've seen as even the real *KCM Naruto has a hard time blocking the fan.*, that's the same naruto who could take V1 han's kick and V2 claw attacks to the face and grab lava without even getting injured.



Turrin said:


> Are you really telling me Kimimaro and Black-Zetsu are superior to Sandaime-Raikage, because the KCM-clones fighting those two couldn't defeat them, but "dat"-clone defeated Sandaime-Raikage.


KCM datclone couldn't defeat edo Sandaime raikage.  He needed the hachibi's intel + support in order to do so.  What makes him kage level is the feats and how much he contributed to those fights.

It's a healthy kimimaro and Chiyo, not just kimimaro, and mifune also left the fight before either were sealed, so that doesn't even mean the clone was defeated.

The kcm clone didn't even lose to black zetsu, and Black zetsu was stalemating Mei + Choujuro and a bunch of powerful jounins and was fighting on par with kakashi and minato while obito was conscious. I don't see how the clone's inability to solo such an opponent puts him below datclone.  



Turrin said:


> Yes they did


scan?



Turrin said:


> Okay, and your point is what. "Dat" clone used a ton of shit besides Chou Oddoma Rasengan.


in KCM all he did was use a FRS, a rasengan planet and attempt to make a bijuurasengan. We've seen the other KCM clones fire off FRS without any hints of losing their chakra cloaks, so why would datclone have more chakra than them? 



Turrin said:


> "Dat"-clone was clearly trying to make a bigger Bijuu-dama-rasengan than mini. The KCM-clone Naruto created against Obito had the help of the real Naruto as well. So this is a terrible comparison.


You don't get it.  What datclone tried to do while in KCM is irrelevant.  If he lost KCM, then from that point on, he COULDN'T have had more chakra than the KCM clone that obito popped since he would be back in KCM form.  That means even after kurama gives him enough raw chakra for datclone pulled off *this,* he STILL doesn't have as much chakra as any other KCM clone.



Turrin said:


> Naruto has been directly shown to have the ability to funnel more kyuubi-chakra to individuals than others. *For example when he had already given the shrouds to everyone, he funnels more to Shikkamaru to save his life. *That's just one example. So there is absolutely no reason he can't do that with a clone, heck Kurama himself does that with his chakra and specifically "dat"-clone.


The bolded, he only brings shikamaru's chakra back to the level of the others.  In otherwords he's able to make all of his existing clones equals.  If he had the ability to make some of his existing clones ABOVE or more powerful than the others, then the K12 wouldn't have needed to jump in his avatar in order for him to do *this.*

And when does naruto show that ability?  almost a hundred chapters after datclone, after and after kurama teaches him how to chakra share



Turrin said:


> What the hell does 7th-Gated Gai and EMS Sasuke have to do with anything lol.


Since an ignored argument is a conceded one, then I accept your concession that your portrayal logic leads to ridiculous results such as 7th gated Gai >>> EMS Sasuke.



Turrin said:


> Guess I didn't get my copy of the electronic microscope that was included in ch 554 and that allowed us to see the level of internal damage FRS did


Despite suffering mere scratches from the FRS, sandaime raikage was unable to even move until the sealing squad had their robes around him.  Compare that to every other edo tensei who can still move despite being butchered and amputated and the only explanation is that he suffered internal damage from the FRS.


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## Gibbs (May 27, 2014)

Tobirama should have some decent sealing techs up his sleeve.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Anyway, if we look at Sandaime-Raikage's accomplishments when he was at his best, He took on Hachibi solo and it seems like Hachibi got lucky more than anything else that Sandaime fell on his own HB otherwise, Sandaime would have won. He put up a very good fight against a 10,000 strong army. I feel as if Tobirama would perform in his own way decently against these enemies -- he'd probably also beat Hachibi and probably kill a huge number of the 10,000 strong army before finally being defeated -- however I can't see him accomplishing ether achievement with anything short of high-difficulty, given his portrayal. And given his current "feats" - which he's had more time to accumulate than Sandaime-Raikage had time to accumulate his "feats" -- I feel as if he'd be pushed to at least extremely-high difficulty.
> 
> Beyond that by sheer virtue of the fact that Gin & Kin defeated Tobirama in the past, it should be clear that Tobirama would have one hell of a time fighting Sandaime-Raikage. If it was the SO6P's treasure tools that defeated Tobirama, Sandaime-Raikage is packing by far thee strongest one in the form of the Amber-Sealing-Jar, so that should also push Tobirama extensively here. If it was Kin/GIn's V2 shrouds and durability that led to Tobirama's defeat than Sandaime-Raikage's "strongest-shield" should also pressure him extensively. If it was Gin/Kin's brute force, than Sandaime-Raikage's physicality and Hell-Bringer should push Tobirama as well. If it was something we haven't seen from Gin/Kin such as them perhaps being able to use a certain level of Bijuu-Bomb, than Sandaime-Raikage has his own upside potential in destructive jutsu via Kuro-Kaminari, which is current the goto weapon of S06P Sasuke, and while Sandaime-Raikage's Kuro-Kaminari is probably no where near as good as Sasuke's, I think we can expect Gin/Kin's Bijuu-Bombs weren't anywhere near the best Bijuu-Bombs, even combined.
> 
> So yeah given what the manga has shown I fully expect Sandaime-Raikage to have a chance at beating Tobirama. Tobirama's odds of winning are better imo, but only to the point where i'd feel comfortable giving Tobirama 6/10 matches at high to extremely high diff.



I disagree with several points. U_U

1- It's unlikely that Tobirama will do nearly as good as the 3rd Raikage, the latter has much better hype/portrayal than Tobirama. The 3rd Raikage was handling 10,000 ninja for 3 days. However, Tobirama's defeat was against only 20, not even close. I think it's safe to think that if he can kill a lot of those 10,000 as you think, then he would not have been killed by 20. 

2- It's unlikely that Tobirama's defeat was because of the tools because they are mostly for sealing, and we know that Tobirama was not sealed. Otherwise Oro would not have been able to summon him in part 1. 

3- there is nothing indicates that Kin/Gin v2 was the reason that Tobirama was defeated. In fact Kakuzu stated that Kin only use it when someone take Gin down, and since the latter was not defeated, then there is a good chance that they did not use it. In addition to that, from their way of talking about Tobirama, and respecting Darui's because he has the 3rd tattoo, I believe that they think of the 3rd as the superior one.

4- the 3rd, again has a better portrayal than Tobirama because he took on the 8tails, and even if we assumed that kin used his 6tails, he is still inferior. So, that again put the 3rd in a higher regard than Tobirama.


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## Turrin (May 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Put datclone in the same situation as the KCM clone and tell me how he fairs any different.  Is datclone... faster?  Stronger?  More reflexive?  more durable?


Clearly all of the above.



> Portrayal right? Datclone was up against opponents who are TIERS below rinnegan obito so of course he's going to do much better against those kages versus fighting Rinnegan Obito with a kamikaze mindset.


Obito's fan attack is tiers above what "dat"-clone faced 



> Also, Obito's fan hits are powerful enough to pop any of the KCM clones we've seen as even the real KCM Naruto has a hard time blocking the fan., that's the same naruto who could take V1 han's kick and V2 claw attacks to the face and grab lava without even getting injured.


What is this.... 

KCM-Naruto had zero problem taking the fan's hit. Did it push him to the side a bit; sure because he was in the air. But to compare that casual fan attack to V2 attacks is just terrible.



> KCM datclone couldn't defeat edo Sandaime raikage. He needed the hachibi's intel + support in order to do so. What makes him kage level is the feats and how much he contributed to those fights.


"dat"-clone can hang with Kages; regular KCM-clones that get owned by casual fan attack can't.



> It's a healthy kimimaro and Chiyo, not just kimimaro, and mifune also left the fight before either were sealed, so that doesn't even mean the clone was defeated.


It's still laughable to suggest Kimimaro and Chiyo are as strong as the people "dat"-clone was fighting. 



> The kcm clone didn't even lose to black zetsu, and Black zetsu was stalemating Mei + Choujuro and a bunch of powerful jounins and was fighting on par with kakashi and minato while obito was conscious. I don't see how the clone's inability to solo such an opponent puts him below datclone.


Let's see "dat"-clone managed to hit Sandaime-Raikage with FRS and Mu with planetary rasengan. On the other hand BZ was reacting to and managing to avoid getting hit by anything the clone threw at him. 

This isn't to say that the clones which faced Chiyo/Kimi or BZ were average, they too were probably stronger than the clones which were just fighting fodder, but they were not at "dat"-clone "level".



> scan?


injured a bit



> in KCM all he did was use a FRS, a rasengan planet and attempt to make a bijuurasengan.


So all he did was more than any other KCM-clone? 



> We've seen the other KCM clones fire off FRS without any hints of losing their chakra cloaks, so why would datclone have more chakra than them?


This picture says it all:


When Naruto creates clones his chakra is divided evenly among them. We can see that represented by the identical chakra tanks. 

However the Kyuubi chakra is different as it remains 1 tank that Naruto and his clones can draw off off. Given that it stays one-tank, that means 1 clone can draw 20%, while another draws 10%, and another draws 40%. They aren't restricted by the even divide, as normal clones are.

So when one Clone uses FRS that doesn't mean every clone can use FRS, it means that clone drew enough chakra out of the collective tank to use that FRS. 

You keep approaching this the wrong way.



> You don't get it. What datclone tried to do while in KCM is irrelevant. If he lost KCM, then from that point on, he COULDN'T have had more chakra than the KCM clone that obito popped since he would be back in KCM form.


This is not true. He had access to all the same chakra as that KCM-clone did. It's just that he didn't use that chakra to enter KCM anymore, because KCM had already failed against the Raikage. So instead of using KCM and wasting chakra he decided to conserve chakra by staying in Base till he figured out another strategy.



> That means even after kurama gives him enough raw chakra for datclone pulled off this, he STILL doesn't have as much chakra as any other KCM clone.


Or he just took the chakra Kurama gave him and put it into his Jutsu rather than using it to enter KCM



> he bolded, he only brings shikamaru's chakra back to the level of the others. In otherwords he's able to make all of his existing clones equals


That's channeling more chakra to someone lol. If you give someone 50-Chakra points, than they use up that 50-chakra points and than you give them 50 chakra points again, there are no if ands or buts about it; that's giving them more chakra. 

I mean even if we assume there is this magical limit [which I see no evidence of]. That would still mean that Naruto can give more power to specific clones, as he can keep replenishing their chakra, allowing them to do more. While on the other hand he may not replenish the chakra of other clones, thus they would be unable to do as much.



> If he had the ability to make some of his existing clones ABOVE or more powerful than the others, then the K12 wouldn't have needed to jump in his avatar in order for him to do this.





> If he had the ability to make some of his existing clones ABOVE or more powerful than the others, then the K12 wouldn't have needed to jump in his avatar in order for him to do this.


Nothing says they needed to be in the tails to get that extra chakra, they needed to be in the tails to get the Rasengans.



> And when does naruto show that ability? almost a hundred chapters after datclone, after and after kurama teaches him how to chakra share


No he showed that ability thee moment that he achieved KCM. As Hachibi explains int he panel I showed above. What he learned many chapters later is handing out chakra to other shinobi.



> Since an ignored argument is a conceded one, then I accept your concession that your portrayal logic leads to ridiculous results such as 7th gated Gai >>> EMS Sasuke.


That's like me saying by your logic Frieza > Toton, not explaining my reason why that has anything to do with our discussion, and then saying I accept your concession, when your left confused and bewildered as to what the hell i'm talking about 



> Despite suffering mere scratches from the FRS, sandaime raikage was unable to even move until the sealing squad had their robes around him. Compare that to every other edo tensei who can still move despite being butchered and amputated and the only explanation is that he suffered internal damage from the FRS.


This is a joke. If FRS had done serious internal damage to Sandaime-Raikage he wouldn't have gotten up and countered the cloth sealers the second they tried to seal him. Edo's do not heal that quickly from such destructive damage. Literally nothing says he couldn't move. And what makes this even more atrocious is the fact that the manga-cannon credits Sandaime's durability for why he survived the FRS, not Edo-Tensei regeneration, which was never mentioned as a factor once. 

Your just making shit up here and you know it.


----------



## LeBoyka (May 27, 2014)

*Stalemate.*

3rd Raikage gets blitzed and tanks numerous hits -> but doesn't go down. He outlasts Tobirama -> Tobirama retreats.


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Clearly all of the above.


oh really?  Then show me dat clone doing a greater strength feat, durability feat, speed feat or reflexive feat.



Turrin said:


> Obito's fan attack is tiers above what "dat"-clone faced


Considering my argument has nothing to do with the fan but rather the WIELDER of the fan, I accept your concession as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



Turrin said:


> What is this....
> 
> KCM-Naruto had zero problem taking the fan's hit. Did it push him to the side a bit; sure because he was in the air.* But to compare that casual fan attack to V2 attacks is just terrible.*


What exactly do you see *here?* Is KCM Naruto not wincing in pain?  Does he not exclaim "uh!" when he merely BLOCKS the fan attack?  If he is, then obviously it is an attack that can hurt him, and thus the clone getting popped by that fan does not mean anything about the clone being less durable than any of the others.

The bolded is just a sad attempt at rhetoric, as the evidence clearly and compellingly falsifies that. 



Turrin said:


> "dat"-clone can hang with Kages; regular KCM-clones that get owned by casual fan attack can't.


Concession once again accepted as i've conclusively shown the fan attack to be strong enough to hurt the real, durable kcm naruto, and the person who was wielding the fan was TIERS beyond one of those kages that datclone could hang with.  Don't waste my time attacking strawmen, but then again why do I even bother when i've requested that you stop doing that a thousand times already.



Turrin said:


> It's still laughable to suggest Kimimaro and Chiyo are as strong as the people "dat"-clone was fighting.


Kimimaro?  hyped to be hebi sasuke level?  Chiyo?  Able to fight against people like Sasori with his full arsenal.  Datclone didn't even solo sandaime raikage, why in the world is it laughable that kimimaro AND chiyo combined don't get solod by datclone?



Turrin said:


> Let's see "dat"-clone managed to hit Sandaime-Raikage with FRS and Mu with planetary rasengan. On the other hand BZ was reacting to and managing to avoid getting hit by anything the clone threw at him.


Muu was hit with the gaara as assistance, black zetsu avoided one FRS by tripping KCM Naruto, it had nothing to do with black zetsu's ability to dodge, and that same black zetsu is capable of pulling stuff like *THIS* against minato. Also black zetsu avoided getting hit by anything Mei, choujurou and their team of jounin threw at them for an entire day, so again, how does any of that put datclone above those other clones?



Turrin said:


> This isn't to say that the clones which faced Chiyo/Kimi or BZ were average, they too were probably stronger than the clones which were just fighting fodder, but they were not at "dat"-clone "level".


Again, based on what exactly?  



Turrin said:


> *THIS*


yeah i don't see susanoo making contact with the clones or any kind of hit animation anywhere.  So again, where do you get that susanoo hit the clones?



Turrin said:


> So all he did was more than any other KCM-clone?


Based on what do you argue that?  We didn't even see what the other KCM clones did, the small glimpses we get are of them opening with stuff like FRS, and having no problems holding their cloaks after that attack.



Turrin said:


> This picture says it all:
> 
> 
> When Naruto creates clones his chakra is divided evenly among them. We can see that represented by the identical chakra tanks.
> ...


That's just an illustration generated to make a different point about KCM and its chakra supply 
But that's completely falsified when we see datclone lose KCM completely, while the other clones and the real naruto still have their KCM cloaks up.  By your logic, datclone would never be able to lose his KCM cloak or be *'almost empty'* while the real naruto and his other clones are still able to maintain KCM and fire off FRS.



Turrin said:


> This is not true. He had access to all the same chakra as that KCM-clone did. It's just that he didn't use that chakra to enter KCM anymore, because KCM had already failed against the Raikage. So instead of using KCM and wasting chakra he decided to conserve chakra by staying in Base till he figured out another strategy.



What do you think *Rubber Guy's *thoughts imply about the chakra shroud?  That losing it doesn't matter or that losing it is permanent? 

KCM didn't fail against the raikage, FRS failed against him, and staying in base leaves him vulnerable to the stuff that happened in the manga where dodai had to save him. Why in the world would naruto travel to the various battlefields while in KCM yet revert to base when he's actually there?  He doesn't need to be in constant KCM in order to know where the battlefields are.  Next, if he could enter KCM, why wouldn't he try to make the bijuudama again?  Finally, he explicitly tells temari he *used up too much chakra earlier and can't enter the mode*, plus he tells himself that *he's low on chakra* while his other clones and naruto are off spamming KCM and firing off high level techs. 



Turrin said:


> Or he just took the chakra Kurama gave him and put it into his Jutsu rather than using it to enter KCM


That's logically impossible, once the chakra is handed to him he'd be in KCM, from there he'd use the jutsu and the mode would vanish.



Turrin said:


> Nothing says they needed to be in the tails to get that extra chakra, they needed to be in the tails to get the Rasengans.


The fact that the instant they go into the tails they get powered up, and the fact that no one else gets powered up like that outside of the tails is conclusive proof that they need to be in direct contact with the real naruto or his chakra avatar in order for that to happen.  



Turrin said:


> That's like me saying by your logic Frieza > Toton, not explaining my reason why that has anything to do with our discussion, and then saying I accept your concession, when your left confused and bewildered as to what the hell i'm talking about


Who performed better against Madara, 7th gated Gai or EMS Sasuke?



Turrin said:


> This is a joke. If FRS had done serious internal damage to Sandaime-Raikage he wouldn't have gotten up and countered the cloth sealers the second they tried to seal him.* Edo's do not heal that quickly from such destructive damage. *Literally nothing says he couldn't move. And what makes this even more atrocious is the fact that the manga-cannon credits Sandaime's durability for why he survived the FRS, not Edo-Tensei regeneration, which was never mentioned as a factor once.


Did i say it did SERIOUS internal damage?
The bolded is what your entire argument is based on, yet you've provided no evidence to support it.   
Literally nothing says he couldn't move?  So the fact that sandaime raikage just lies there, lets the robes get around him and is incapable of even activating his shroud in order to cut the robes while other edo tenseis get blown apart, amputated and cut in half yet are able to instantly fight isn't positive evidence that he couldn't move?  Are you saying that sandaime raikage on full zombie mode just decided to lie there in the sand and wait for the chakra robes to get around him?  Get the hell out.
Sandaime raikage 'survives' FRS in both edo and living forms, he just doesn't regenerate from the cellular damage in his living form which hampers his ability to fight.



Turrin said:


> Your just making shit up here and you know it.


Absolutely not, these are the same arguments that i've used and defended for a long time.  What's the alternative argument? That sandaime raikage on full autopilot and for no reason at all just decided to sit there and take a nap?  There's literally no other explanation for his actions.  FRS severed the chakra network in every cell in kakuzu's body while leaving the body in tact.  Edo tenseis have instantly healed from things like jinton which attack at the molecular level, a level much smaller than cellular, thus why isn't that explanation the most plausible one out there?


----------



## Turrin (May 28, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> oh really?  Then show me dat clone doing a greater strength feat, durability feat, speed feat or reflexive feat.


Drawing on more kyuubi-chakra, would enhance all of these aspects. 



> Considering my argument has nothing to do with the fan but rather the WIELDER of the fan, I accept your concession as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


Considering my argument has nothing to do with the level of Obito, but rather the level of the attack he used, I accept your concession as an ignored argument is a conceded one 



> What exactly do you see here? Is KCM Naruto not wincing in pain? Does he not exclaim "uh!" when he merely BLOCKS the fan attack? If he is, then obviously it is an attack that can hurt him, and thus the clone getting popped by that fan does not mean anything about the clone being less durable than any of the others


This is nonsensical. I was never arguing the fan couldn't pop a clone -- in-fact that was my point -- what I was arguing against was the idea that fan pushed KCM-Naurto that much. 



> Concession once again accepted as i've conclusively shown the fan attack to be strong enough to hurt the real, durable kcm naruto, and the person who was wielding the fan was TIERS beyond one of those kages that datclone could hang with. Don't waste my time attacking strawmen, but then again why do I even bother when i've requested that you stop doing that a thousand times already.


I'll ask you point blank. Do you believe casual fan attack > than what "dat"-clone faced against the Kages. Yes or no. None of this bullshit about levels, when it doesn't matter because casual-fan attack isn't even remotely close to Rinnegan-Obito's best shit. None of this bullshit about KCM-Naruto experiencing what amounts to maybe minor pain, because he would have experienced far worst if hit by the Edo-Kages attacks.  Given to me straight up, is Fan Attack > everything the Edo-Kages had.



> Kimimaro? hyped to be hebi sasuke level? Chiyo? Able to fight against people like Sasori with his full arsenal. Datclone didn't even solo sandaime raikage, why in the world is it laughable that kimimaro AND chiyo combined don't get solod by datclone?


The KCM-Clone that faced Kimi and Chiyo did have back up. 

Basically we have one clone w/ back up failing to defeat Kimi or Chiyo
Than we have another defeating Kages

There is no way anyone who is being even remotely reasonable doesn't see the difference here.



> Again, based on what exactly?


Them using more chakra from the collective tank. The moment they pulled out FRS they were using more chakra than other clones.



> yeah i don't see susanoo making contact with the clones or any kind of hit animation anywhere. So again, where do you get that susanoo hit the clones?


Yeah because Naruto just jumps that way 



> Based on what do you argue that? We didn't even see what the other KCM clones did, the small glimpses we get are of them opening with stuff like FRS, and having no problems holding their cloaks after that attack


So again all he did was more than any other clone was shown to do. 



> That's just an illustration generated to make a different point about KCM and its chakra supply


So basically this picture is invalide, because it was drawn by Kishimoto to tell you specifically how drawing on kyuubi-chakra works with clones. This is a dam joke   



> But that's completely falsified when we see datclone lose KCM completely, while the other clones and the real naruto still have their KCM cloaks up. By your logic, datclone would never be able to lose his KCM cloak or be 'almost empty' while the real naruto and his other clones are still able to maintain KCM and fire off FRS.


Your trying to falsify what manga cannon directly stated, please get over yourself. 

Dat-clone drew certain amounts of kyuubi chakra from the collective tank at different times, the amount he currently drew from the tank was exhausted to the point where he was no longer in KCM after he attempted Bijuudama. However  he could have drawn more from the tank if he wanted to, but it would simply waste more KCM chakra as KCM had already failed against Sandaime-Raikage.

Dat-clone was almost empty at the time of the Madara battle because the collective tank was probably running low and so was his individual clone chakra. Hence Kurama stepping in.




> What do you think Rubber Guy's thoughts imply about the chakra shroud? That losing it doesn't matter or that losing it is permanent?


Exactly what he says, Naruto is pushing himself too hard and drawing too much chakra fruitlessly from the collective tank



> KCM didn't fail against the raikage, FRS failed against him, and staying in base leaves him vulnerable to the stuff that happened in the manga where dodai had to save him. Why in the world would naruto travel to the various battlefields while in KCM yet revert to base when he's actually there? He doesn't need to be in constant KCM in order to know where the battlefields are. Next, if he could enter KCM, why wouldn't he try to make the bijuudama again?


The manga tells us that this is how it works, and your arguing against it. Just stop; please....

Dat-clone was aware that many other clones and the real naruto were drawing from that collective tank, so him not spamming KCM when it's not necessary makes sense. Naruto using KCM to increase his speed arriving at the battlefields also makes sense. 

He already failed to make the Bijuu Bomb why the hell would he try that again, leaving alliance members to die, when he was starting to think of another strategy. 



> Finally, he explicitly tells temari he used up too much chakra earlier and can't enter the mode, plus he tells himself that he's low on chakra while his other clones and naruto are off spamming KCM and firing off high level techs.


Again because the collective tank itself was running dry. And no we did not see any KCM-Clones spamming high level shit at that point. Though they probably had some kyuubi-chakra left which they had already drawn from the collective tank. 

I do not know why this is such a tough concept to grasp.

If Naruto creates 12 Clones. Him and clones each have 1/13th of Naruto's chakra. But now the clones are using the kyuubi-chakra. Let's say it takes 5% of the Kyuubi-chakra for each clone to be in KCM and do some basic shit like chakra arms and normal rasengan. So that would 65% of the kyuubi chakra, leaving a remainder of 35%. That extra 35% left in the tank can be drawn on by specific clones or the real naruto, when they need an extra boost of chakra, such as for using the more demanding FRS. However when that 35% is depleted to like 1%, there is going to be nothing extra in the tank for Naruto or his clones to draw on. They have to make do with what they have left or wait for the tank to recover. Will there be some clones left with more chakra than others, sure, because some clones haven't used up their 5% yet, while others have.

These are imaginary numbers, but explains the concept none the less.



> That's logically impossible, once the chakra is handed to him he'd be in KCM, from there he'd use the jutsu and the mode would vanish.


No it's not. If he is using the chakra the moment Kurama gives it to him for his jutsu, he wouldn't enter KCM, as all the chakra would simply go to that Jutsu. This is also not to mention the author not wanting to waste time drawning him entering KCM only to have to draw him leaving KCM a second later.



> The fact that the instant they go into the tails they get powered up, and the fact that no one else gets powered up like that outside of the tails is conclusive proof that they need to be in direct contact with the real naruto or his chakra avatar in order for that to happen.


This isn't proof of anything lol. They went in the tails to get the rasengan and they were powered up more because Naruto wanted them to be powerful enough to use the rasegan. No one dam thing says they needed to be in the tails; not one thing.



> Who performed better against Madara, 7th gated Gai or EMS Sasuke?


Nether. Both of their attempts got laughed off by Madara. 



> Did i say it did SERIOUS internal damage?
> The bolded is what your entire argument is based on, yet you've provided no evidence to support it.
> Literally nothing says he couldn't move? So the fact that sandaime raikage just lies there, lets the robes get around him and is incapable of even activating his shroud in order to cut the robes while other edo tenseis get blown apart, amputated and cut in half yet are able to instantly fight isn't positive evidence that he couldn't move? Are you saying that sandaime raikage on full zombie mode just decided to lie there in the sand and wait for the chakra robes to get around him? Get the hell out.
> Sandaime raikage 'survives' FRS in both edo and living forms, he just doesn't regenerate from the cellular damage in his living form which hampers his ability to fight.


This is such horrible reasoning. Sandaime was stunned from FRS, like when someone punches you and you get a bit loopy. I fully admit it did that much to him. But that in no universe proves it did internal damage to him or did enough damage where FRS would have defeated him w/o edo. The whole fing point of that chapter was to show that Sandaime-Raikage's strongest shield > FRS. Not to show hey well it's really Edo-regen that's > FRS.



> Absolutely not, these are the same arguments that i've used and defended for a long time. What's the alternative argument? That sandaime raikage on full autopilot and for no reason at all just decided to sit there and take a nap? There's literally no other explanation for his actions. FRS severed the chakra network in every cell in kakuzu's body while leaving the body in tact. Edo tenseis have instantly healed from things like jinton which attack at the molecular level, a level much smaller than cellular, thus why isn't that explanation the most plausible one out there?


Please spare me your fanfic.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2014)

Tobirama uses ET and summons Itachi. Itachi proceeds to solo 

Tobirama neg difficulty


----------



## Alita (May 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Raikagenaut's durability is too much for Tobirama to overcome. Suitons will do little more than annoy a guy who essentially no sold Naruto's "Rasenshuriken" and stamina wise, he's outclassed too since Raikagenaut was able to push a biju to his limit. Tobirama is faster but he can't avoid Raikagenaut forever. With feats, I'd give it to Raikagenaut more times than not. Portrayal wise, Tobirama is stronger.



This right here.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (May 28, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Tobi as an Edo stuck his hand inside his own body and then pulled out the tags. He also stated that he create fighting techniques for Edo Tensei as well while doing it. It seems more like the jutsu is to be used with Edo rather then him carrying the tags on him or him summoning them(if he even can do that) and being able to use it by myself.



Yeah, because as Madara said, Edo Tensei was originally used to clear the field presumably using that very technique, but using an Edo would allow Tobirama to determine whether or not it succeeded. A Bunshin would simply be destroyed. Seeing as Edo bodies aren't made up of explosive tags, him reaching inside his own body doesn't suggest a thing about the technique being Edo specific, and instead suggests he freely generates them from any chakra infused substance.


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Drawing on more kyuubi-chakra, would enhance all of these aspects.


so you don't have any evidence. Since when does a KCM clone with more chakra have better reflexes, better strength, better speed and better durability than a KCM clone with less  chakra? 



Turrin said:


> Considering my argument has nothing to do with the level of Obito, but rather the level of the attack he used, I accept your concession as an ignored argument is a conceded one


Then that's a massive double standard on your part as your portrayal arguments are blind to feats, they only take into account the level of the opponent.  Thus if you do argue this way, then it would falsify every other portrayal argument you've ever made in the batledome, which means you would concede all of those and then i'll take you up on this current argument.



Turrin said:


> This is nonsensical. I was never arguing the fan couldn't pop a clone -- in-fact that was my point -- what I was arguing against was the idea that fan pushed KCM-Naurto that much.


Well considering you've haven't responded to the point i've just made about the fan pushing KCM Naruto, then you'd concede that point as well.



Turrin said:


> I'll ask you point blank. Do you believe casual fan attack > than what "dat"-clone faced against the Kages. Yes or no. None of this bullshit about levels, when it doesn't matter because casual-fan attack isn't even remotely close to Rinnegan-Obito's best shit. None of this bullshit about KCM-Naruto experiencing what amounts to maybe minor pain, because he would have experienced far worst if hit by the Edo-Kages attacks.  Given to me straight up, is Fan Attack > everything the Edo-Kages had.


Nope, fan attack alone isn't > everything that the kages had.  But if you want to make that comparison, then it wasn't the fan attack alone that ended that KCM clone.  It was a combination of the fan attack plus kamui and Rinnegan obito's reflexes, and that is most definitely >> everything the edo kages attacked the clone with.  



Turrin said:


> The KCM-Clone that faced Kimi and Chiyo did have back up.
> 
> Basically we have one clone w/ back up failing to defeat Kimi or Chiyo
> Than we have another defeating Kages
> ...


 Sure there's "a" difference, but i've already shown how both Kimi and Chiyo fight on the kage level, and you haven't refuted that.  The clone never faced more than one kage at a time, he fought muu 3 vs 1 and sandaime raikage 1 vs himself plus a bulk of the division.  Now he's up against 2 kage level opponents and he we don't even know if the clone was defeated by them as we also saw mifune left the battlefield before both were sealed.  So how exactly does that put datclone on a level above those other clones?



Turrin said:


> Them using more chakra from the collective tank. The moment they pulled out FRS they were using more chakra than other clones.


Based on what?  Did you see the other clones fight?  Do you have any evidence at all that the other KCM clones were incapable of using FRS?  If not, then you have no evidence, all you would be doing is asserting something and trying to make me prove a negative.



Turrin said:


> Yeah because Naruto just jumps that way


Is that really the only other logical possibility you could come up with to explain the evidence?



Turrin said:


> So again all he did was more than any other clone was shown to do.


Which isn't positive evidence for your argument given you haven't addressed any of the reasoning in the post you've quoted.



Turrin said:


> So basically this picture is invalide, because it was drawn by Kishimoto to tell you specifically how drawing on kyuubi-chakra works with clones. This is a dam joke


Don't waste my time with silly attempts at rhetoric.  Either address the reasoning or concede the argument.



Turrin said:


> Your trying to falsify what manga cannon directly stated, please get over yourself.


The manga canon didn't state any of what you are saying.  You are simply trying to draw conclusions based on a picture representation in a scan that was never intended to illustrate what you are using it for.



Turrin said:


> Dat-clone drew certain amounts of kyuubi chakra from the collective tank at different times, the amount he currently drew from the tank was exhausted to the point where he was no longer in KCM after he attempted Bijuudama. However  he could have drawn more from the tank if he wanted to, *but it would simply waste more KCM chakra as KCM had already failed against Sandaime-Raikage*.


The bolded is completely and utterly false.  Just because FRS failed against Sandaime raikage doesn't mean that KCM failed.  If he's up against an opponent whos as fast as Ei, planning or not, he's not going to want to stay in base and allow Sandaime raikage the opportunity to blitz him like he almost did in canon.  



Turrin said:


> Dat-clone was almost empty at the time of the Madara battle because the collective tank was probably running low and so was his individual clone chakra. Hence Kurama stepping in.


That is literally impossible since we saw the other clones just moments before using KCM and we even see clones using KCM and still using things like FRS.  Not only that but the real naruto was still using KCM, and was able to fight with that mode for a while before losing it.  




Turrin said:


> Exactly what he says, Naruto is pushing himself too hard and drawing too much chakra fruitlessly from the collective tank


Since you don't dispute that rubber guy's quote implies naruto losing the cloak is permanent, then I accept your concession on this point.   Pushing himself too hard was in reference to him trying to use a technique that he failed to do which cost him the cloak.



Turrin said:


> The manga tells us that this is how it works, and your arguing against it. Just stop; please....


the manga in no way shape or form 'told us' how it works.  It gave an illustration to demonstrate how something else worked, and you've gone and interpreted that in your own way.



Turrin said:


> Dat-clone was aware that many other clones and the real naruto were drawing from that collective tank, so him not spamming KCM when it's not necessary makes sense. Naruto using KCM to increase his speed arriving at the battlefields also makes sense.


naruto couldn't have been using KCM to increase his speed in arrive to the battlefields since we see the original is only moving as fast as bee, and even has to wait for him to catch up, yet he still spams the cloak while doing so.  Datclone also would logically have canceled his cloak when he began to talk to gaara and oonoki in order to conserve chakra, yet he doesn't.  So neither of those things are true. 



Turrin said:


> He already failed to make the Bijuu Bomb why the hell would he try that again, leaving alliance members to die, when he was starting to think of another strategy.


What happens the next time naruto attempts to make a bijuudama? Does he fail again?  So why would the clone have failed again?


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Again because the collective tank itself was running dry. And no we did not see any KCM-Clones spamming high level shit at that point. Though they probably had some kyuubi-chakra left which they had already drawn from the collective tank.


*KCM Naruto casually using high level stuff a chapter after that point.*  Without even losing his shroud.  And guess what?  Despite the battle over there being over, and that clone still having enough chakra to be in KCM, *datclone STILL can't enter KCM and needs to be healed before he can even begin to fight.*  So once again, datclone couldn't have been drawing on this collective chakra pool you are referring to.



Turrin said:


> If Naruto creates 12 Clones. Him and clones each have 1/13th of Naruto's chakra. But now the clones are using the kyuubi-chakra. Let's say it takes 5% of the Kyuubi-chakra for each clone to be in KCM and do some basic shit like chakra arms and normal rasengan. So that would 65% of the kyuubi chakra, leaving a remainder of 35%. That extra 35% left in the tank can be drawn on by specific clones or the real naruto, when they need an extra boost of chakra, such as for using the more demanding FRS. However when that 35% is depleted to like 1%, there is going to be nothing extra in the tank for Naruto or his clones to draw on. They have to make do with what they have left or wait for the tank to recover. Will there be some clones left with more chakra than others, sure, because some clones haven't used up their 5% yet, while others have.


I know that's what you WANT to be true, yet all the evidence in the manga points AGAINST that, which is why your argument has dissolved into asserting something and simply trying to make me refute that assertion which is the equivalent of trying to make me refute a negative.  In addition to all of that, *this scan* makes your baseless theory impossible since it occurs before ANY of the clones reach their battlefields and thus by your logic, even if you summed up all the techniques used by every clone after that point, and it still wouldn't be more than the chakra it requires to put another clone in KCM.  It also shows that each clone is comprised of a set split portion of the user's chakra which is why the real Naruto also loses his cloak since he divides his kyuubi chakra so much that he nor his clone have enough to be in that mode.  



Turrin said:


> No it's not. If he is using the chakra the moment Kurama gives it to him for his jutsu, he wouldn't enter KCM, as all the chakra would simply go to that Jutsu. This is also not to mention the author not wanting to waste time drawning him entering KCM only to have to draw him leaving KCM a second later.


Unless you want to argue that drawing KCM Naruto is for some reason WAY harder than drawing base naruto, the author not doing it because of wasted time is false.  Naruto didn't use kagebunshin the moment kurama gave it to him, he ran first and then used it.  Plus we've sen when naruto does use up enough KCM chakra *that he runs out of it only after he uses the technique.*



Turrin said:


> This isn't proof of anything lol. They went in the tails to get the rasengan and they were powered up more because Naruto wanted them to be powerful enough to use the rasegan. No one dam thing says they needed to be in the tails; not one thing.


Nothing except the fact that the instant they go into the tails, they get powered up. 



Turrin said:


> Nether. Both of their attempts got laughed off by Madara.


Really now?  So JJ Madara (who's far stronger than EMS Madara) being surprised by Gai's speed, having to go on the defensive against Gai's attack is equivalent to a far weaker madara casually picking up sasuke's sword while holding a conversation and stabbing him in the gut?  Get out.



Turrin said:


> This is such horrible reasoning. *Sandaime was stunned from FRS, like when someone punches you and you get a bit loopy*. I fully admit it did that much to him. But that in no universe proves it did internal damage to him or did enough damage where FRS would have defeated him w/o edo. The whole fing point of that chapter was to show that Sandaime-Raikage's strongest shield > FRS. Not to show hey well it's really Edo-regen that's > FRS.


Please oh please show me where edo tenseis get stunned by attacks that barely do any surface damage to them.  
Sandaime raikage's strongest shield is > FRS which is why the technique couldn't kill him or damage him enough to seal him.  However that doesn't mean that Sandaime raikage didn't take the internal damage that I am asserting it did. 



Turrin said:


> Please spare me your fanfic.


since 'please spare me your fanfic' is in no way shape or form a counterargument, then i accept your concession as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> so you don't have any evidence. Since when does a KCM clone with more chakra have better reflexes, better strength, better speed and better durability than a KCM clone with less  chakra?


Are your denying that a kyuubi-chakra enhances these attributes?



> Then that's a massive double standard on your part as your portrayal arguments are blind to feats, they only take into account the level of the opponent. Thus if you do argue this way, then it would falsify every other portrayal argument you've ever made in the batledome, which means you would concede all of those and then i'll take you up on this current argument.


I should't have to explain this, but their is a how a characters strength is portrayed, and how much of that strength a characters is portrayed to be exerting in a specific instance. 



> Well considering you've haven't responded to the point i've just made about the fan pushing KCM Naruto, then you'd concede that point as well.


I did respond. You than decided to attack straw-man about the fan being able to poof a clone, instead of addressing my point. And what is that shit you keep saying - an ignored argument is a conceded one - yeah that sounds about right here.



> Nope, fan attack alone isn't > everything that the kages had. But if you want to make that comparison, then it wasn't the fan attack alone that ended that KCM clone. It was a combination of the fan attack plus kamui and Rinnegan obito's reflexes, and that is most definitely >> everything the edo kages attacked the clone with.


It was the fan attack that the clone couldn't react to or defend. All Obito used Kamui for was defense. 




> Sure there's "a" difference, but i've already shown how both Kimi and Chiyo fight on the kage level, and you haven't refuted that. The clone never faced more than one kage at a time, he fought muu 3 vs 1 and sandaime raikage 1 vs himself plus a bulk of the division. Now he's up against 2 kage level opponents and he we don't even know if the clone was defeated by them as we also saw mifune left the battlefield before both were sealed. So how exactly does that put datclone on a level above those other clones?


Allow me to than refute it. Sandaime-Raikage fought Hachibi to a draw and fought 10,000 shinobi for 3-days and 3-nights. Now you can show me what indicates Kimi & Chiyo are anywhere even remotely close to that "level". Go on i'm waiting.



> Based on what? Did you see the other clones fight? Do you have any evidence at all that the other KCM clones were incapable of using FRS? If not, then you have no evidence, all you would be doing is asserting something and trying to make me refute a negative.


We can only go off what's been shown or stated. It's never been stated that everyone of those clones used (or could use) FRS and we never saw those other clones utilize anything as demanding as FRS. 



> Is that really the only other logical possibility you could come up with to explain the evidence?


Please enlighten me as to how Naruto can look exactly like he's blown into the air, but isn't.



> Which isn't positive evidence for your argument given you haven't addressed any of the reasoning in the post you've quoted.


The argument is simple, "dat"-clone was shown to do more than the other clones. If this is not the case all you have to do is present panels showing other clones doing more. Go on i'm waiting...



> Don't waste my time with silly attempts at rhetoric. Either address the reasoning or concede the argument.


The author literally drew you dam picture explaining how KCM/KCM-clones work, and your ignoring it because it's a picture that is drawn specifically to explain to you how this stuff works. I'm genuinely asking you how the hell do you rationalize this nonsense.



> The manga canon didn't state any of what you are saying. You are simply trying to draw conclusions based on a picture representation in a scan that was never intended to illustrate what you are using it for


The scan was specifically there to illustrate how KB in KCM works. I'm using it to explain how KB in KCM works. What the hell man, just what the hell...



> The bolded is completely and utterly false. Just because FRS failed against Sandaime raikage doesn't mean that KCM failed. If he's up against an opponent whos as fast as Ei, planning or not, he's not going to want to stay in base and allow Sandaime raikage the opportunity to blitz him like he almost did in canon.


He is going to want to stay in base, if he wants to conserve chakra.



> That is literally impossible since we saw the other clones just moments before using KCM and we even see clones using KCM and still using things like FRS. Not only that but the real naruto was still using KCM, and was able to fight with that mode for a while before losing it.


Because they already drew Kyuubi-chakra from the collective tank.



> Since you don't dispute that rubber guy's quote implies naruto losing the cloak is permanent, then I accept your concession on this point. Pushing himself too hard was in reference to him trying to use a technique that he failed to do which cost him the cloak.


Where does Dodai say losing the cloak is permanent. Go on i'm waiting....



> the manga in no way shape or form 'told us' how it works. It gave an illustration to demonstrate how something else worked, and you've gone and interpreted that in your own way.


Yes it did. Naruto pulled out an orb of nine-tails chakra he draws from. When he creates a shadow-clone it's his chakra that's dived evenly, no the Kyuubi-chakra. Rather it is now the shadow clone and himself that are both drawing chakra off that orb. This is thee last time I'm going to even bother with this, and than I'm done with this discussion, because it's so ridiculous to me that the manga draws you a fricken diagram and you still don't accept it or are even willing to at least acknowledge it as a possibility.  



> naruto couldn't have been using KCM to increase his speed in arrive to the battlefields since we see the original is only moving as fast as bee, and even has to wait for him to catch up, yet he still spams the cloak while doing so. .


Are you saying the speed of a Base-Clone is equal a KCM-clone?



> Datclone also would logically have canceled his cloak when he began to talk to gaara and oonoki in order to conserve chakra, yet he doesn't. So neither of those things are true


He still wanted to get to the next battlefield quickly. So no try again.



> What happens the next time naruto attempts to make a bijuudama? Does he fail again? So why would the clone have failed again?


When has KCM-clone ever successfully created a Bijuu-dama? Even the real Naruto could only createa Mini-Bijuudama, and we can be sure that is not enough to take on Sandaime-Raikage's strongest shield. So with lives on the line wasting a ton of chakra and time on a second attempt is absolutely a terrible idea.



> KCM Naruto casually using high level stuff a chapter after that point. Without even losing his shroud. And guess what? Despite the battle over there being over, and that clone still having enough chakra to be in KCM, datclone STILL can't enter KCM and needs to be healed before he can even begin to fight. So once again, datclone couldn't have been drawing on this collective chakra pool you are referring to.


What you fail to consider is when the clone facing BZ drew extra chakra from the collective tank. Just because he's shown using FRS in ch 562, does not mean he didn't draw extra kyuubi-chakra before ch562, as his fight against BZ began well before that. So no this does not prove the manga-cannon diagram of how this works wrong. Try again.



> know that's what you WANT to be true, yet all the evidence in the manga points AGAINST that, which is why your argument has dissolved into asserting something and simply trying to make me refute that assertion which is the equivalent of trying to make me refute a negative.


Except for the fucking diagram that Kishimoto draws that details it working exactly I say it does


----------



## Turrin (May 28, 2014)

> In addition to all of that, this scan makes your baseless theory impossible since it occurs before ANY of the clones reach their battlefields and thus by your logic, even if you summed up all the techniques used by every clone after that point, and it still wouldn't be more than the chakra it requires to put another clone in KCM


The reason he couldn't create anymore KCM clones is because the Kyuubi was absorbing his chakra. In-fact the manga outright states this here:
*that he runs out of it only after he uses the technique.*
Link removed

It's not that he lack enough kyuubi-chakra to put another clone in KCM, as we very clearly see him re-enter KCM after that point, showing he did have enough kyuubi-chakra to enter KCM.



> Unless you want to argue that drawing KCM Naruto is for some reason WAY harder than drawing base naruto, the author not doing it because of wasted time is false.


It's obviously more time consuming to draw Naruto transitioning back and forth between KCM mode, than drawning Naruto in base. especially if Kishi had to do that for the dozens of clones on that panel.



> Naruto didn't use kagebunshin the moment kurama gave it to him, he ran first and then used it. P


Show me the panel where it's stated Kurama gave Naruto the chakra before he used KB. All Kurama says is i'll lend you some chakra, than we see Naruto do the KB seal. No-where does it say specify the exact timing of when Kurama gave Naruto the chakra.



> Plus we've sen when naruto does use up enough KCM chakra that he runs out of it only after he uses the technique.


That's when in KCM-Mode already, not when he's in Base and just directly channeling all the chakra given him into a specific technique.  We literally see Naruto doing this same thing in the current chapters when he use YFRS and is only channeling Yonbi's chakra for that very specific Jutsu, and does not enter a Yonbi Shrouded mode.



> Nothing except the fact that the instant they go into the tails, they get powered up.


So you have unprovable connection, that your asserting.



> Really now? So JJ Madara (who's far stronger than EMS Madara) being surprised by Gai's speed, having to go on the defensive against Gai's attack is equivalent to a far weaker madara casually picking up sasuke's sword while holding a conversation and stabbing him in the gut? Get out.


Defensive lol Madara was fucking around. He literally took 7th-Gate Gai's strongest attack at point blank range w/ zero damage, than was about to effortlessly kill Gai if not for Lee saving him.  At least with Sasuke he used Limbo Hengoku.



> Please oh please show me where edo tenseis get stunned by attacks that barely do any surface damage to them.


Ginkaku gets hit by lazers, and despite their being no note worthy damage he is on the ground dazed for a bit:
Link removed

Plus no other Tensei was hit by an attack that was giant flashbang bomb like the FRS. 

And finally you are reading too much into the artistic choices of the author. Kishi wanted to draw Sandaime-Raikage on the ground like that so it seemed to readers like FRS defeated him, so it would be more dramatic when Sandaime-Raikage got back up. You see to have gotten as far as the point where it seemed like Sandaime-Raikage was defeated and never bother to grasp that Sandaime-Raikage got back up and it was his shield credit for that not Edo-Rengen. 



> Sandaime raikage's strongest shield is > FRS which is why the technique couldn't kill him or damage him enough to seal him. However that doesn't mean that Sandaime raikage didn't take the internal damage that I am asserting it did.


That's exactly what it means. How the hell would the internal damage even take place if FRS couldn't get through Raikage's strongest shield. Those mini-wind blades actually need to be able to pierce through Raiakge's body to get at the chakra network. We saw no sign that happened what-so-ever. And Kishi gave us no indicating that Sandaime only avoided this do to Edo-Regen. So again this is really nothing but fan-fic.



> since 'please spare me your fanfic' is in no way shape or form a counterargument, then i accept your concession as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


Since you don't have nearly enough evidence to support your fanfic, concession accepted


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Are your denying that a kyuubi-chakra enhances these attributes?


Kyuubi chakra mode enhances those attributes. I'm denying that simply having more chakra while in that mode doesn't enhance those attributes, and you are asserting the opposite. 



Turrin said:


> I should't have to explain this, but their is a how a characters strength is portrayed, and how much of that strength a characters is portrayed to be exerting in a specific instance.


Which doesn't falsify my argument as Rinnegan Obito is portrayed as far above the level of the kages that datclone fought so its no surprise that he can dispatch them like how he did.



Turrin said:


> I did respond. You than decided to attack straw-man about the fan being able to poof a clone, instead of addressing my point. And what is that shit you keep saying - an ignored argument is a conceded one - yeah that sounds about right here.


What you just did is a strawman.  Sure you responded to A PART of my post, thus you wouldn't be ignoring and conceding that PART.  However you didn't respond to the part that showed how KCM Naruto was in pain, getting pushed back and etc from just blocking the fan.  THAT'S what you ignored and thus conceded.



Turrin said:


> It was the fan attack that the clone couldn't react to or defend. All Obito used Kamui for was defense.


He couldn't react to or defend against the attack after Obito phases through him with kamui with his super reactions.  Thus it's completely and utterly fallacious to say that the fan attack > the clone.  That's the equivalent of saying a KCM clone > EMS Madara or EMS Sasuke because both were taken out by a sword stab.  Debate honestly and don't waste my time.



Turrin said:


> Allow me to than refute it. Sandaime-Raikage fought Hachibi to a draw and fought 10,000 shinobi for 3-days and 3-nights. Now you can show me what indicates Kimi & Chiyo are anywhere even remotely close to that "level". Go on i'm waiting.


Sasori took over an entire country with his puppets, chiyo was able to fight on the same level as sasori.  Sasuke while holding back was able to defeat hundreds of shinobi without even getting a scratch on him.  And he was directly compared to kimimaro.  And unlike sandaime raikage who doesn't benefit from edo tensei's unlimited chakra due to his stamina, chiyo and kimimaro do.



Turrin said:


> *We can only go off what's been shown or stated.* It's never been stated that everyone of those clones used (or could use) FRS and we never saw those other clones utilize anything as demanding as FRS.


If we are only going off of what's been shown or stated, then the unbolded isn't in anyway shape or form a positive argument for the clones not being able to use those attacks as it's never shown or stated that they CAN'T use FRS or things above.  On the otherhand it WAS shown and stated that kagebunshin splits the chakra between the clones evenly, thus while there is no reason to believe the kagebunshins couldn't use those techniques, we have a good reason to believe they can since multiple clones are shown doing them without issue.



Turrin said:


> Please enlighten me as to how Naruto can look exactly like he's blown into the air, but isn't.


The force of COR getting dispelled/overpowered.  It's the same thing that happened *here.*  Naruto doesn't take any hit, he just gets sent flying.



Turrin said:


> The argument is simple, "dat"-clone was shown to do more than the other clones. If this is not the case all you have to do is present panels showing other clones doing more. Go on i'm waiting...


That's just pure boneheaded logic. If datclone is the only clone we see exhaust his chakra supply then by what logic would lead you to conclude that because datclone showed more, he has more chakra than the other clones?  With just that information, the logical conclusion would be that we don't know if datclone has more or less than the other clones since we have been given no reason to believe that he has more or less than the other clones.  

The continuous and most highlighted problem about the kagebunshin technique is that it splits the chakra evenly between all the clones and the user.  Nothing in the manga suggests that KCM clones suddenly function in a different way, it's the other way around considering Naruto is limited in the number of KCM/BM clones he can make *even when he has a lot of chakra at his disposal. *



Turrin said:


> The author literally drew you dam picture explaining how KCM/KCM-clones work, and your ignoring it because it's a picture that is drawn specifically to explain to you how this stuff works. I'm genuinely asking you how the hell do you rationalize this nonsense.


* When kishi draws the picture of how the alliance is linked to naruto*, is he literally telling us that only a few people are directly linked to naruto, or that if you kill the people who are directly linked to naruto, that the people who are linked to him will no longer be linked to naruto, or that the chakra has to go through the first person in order to get to the rest like a chain, or that the chakra isn't actually connected to naruto when he's not manipulating it?  Of course not.  Not only that but that tobirama explanation is what your entire argument is based on and yet it disproves your argument as his statements imply that Naruto is only able to manipulate ALL of his clones in the same way and he can't single them out. 



Turrin said:


> The scan was specifically there to illustrate how KB in KCM works. I'm using it to explain how KB in KCM works. What the hell man, just what the hell...


The scan was specifically there to illustrate how Kurama's chakra and naruto's get swapped when he uses KCM itself, and how Kurama will be free to absorb naruto's chakra, NOT about how a KCM clone mechanics differ from regular shadow clones or how using kagebunshin with a KCM doesn't split the chakra evenly between them.



Turrin said:


> He is going to want to stay in base, if he wants to conserve chakra.


Yet you have no evidence that the clones can even revert to base and reenter KCM, all the evidence points against it.  Again you've ignored my argument which gives a good reason why the clone wouldn't stay in base when up against an opponent who's as fast as Ei.



Turrin said:


> Because they already drew Kyuubi-chakra from the collective tank.


Hold on, you said that they only draw chakra from the tank when they use techniques, yet why they are using techniques after the fact, thus that again falsifies your assertion that they previously drew the chakra from the tank.  Not only that, but why can't they put the chakra back in the tank if they don't use it?  That's exactly how naruto's trick with SM works, by poofing a clone, he gets their natural energy.



Turrin said:


> Where does Dodai say losing the cloak is permanent. Go on i'm waiting....


I accpet your concession that Dodai's quote implies losing the cloak is permanent and that 'pushing yourself' was refering to using a technique that he didn't fully master as an ignored argument is a conceded one. 



Turrin said:


> Yes it did. Naruto pulled out an orb of nine-tails chakra he draws from. When he creates a shadow-clone it's his chakra that's dived evenly, no the Kyuubi-chakra. Rather it is now the shadow clone and himself that are both drawing chakra off that orb. This is thee last time I'm going to even bother with this, and than I'm done with this discussion, because it's so ridiculous to me that the manga draws you a fricken diagram and you still don't accept it or are even willing to at least acknowledge it as a possibility.


Refer to the illustration of how chakra linking works.  If the point of the scan was to show how the tank wasn't split, then the scan wouldn't have cropped the tank out, it would have kept the tank in the picture. The only reason it was illustrated as such was to fit the drawings in that panel while the main point was magnified.  If naruto is merely shelving his own chakra reserves to use KCM why in the world would the mechanics of his kagebunshin suddenly change?  



Turrin said:


> Are you saying the speed of a Base-Clone is equal a KCM-clone?


Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



Turrin said:


> He still wanted to get to the next battlefield quickly. So no try again.


How does keeping your KCM cloak up allow you to hold a conversation quicker?  



Turrin said:


> When has KCM-clone ever successfully created a Bijuu-dama? Even the real Naruto could only createa Mini-Bijuudama, and we can be sure that is not enough to take on Sandaime-Raikage's strongest shield. So with lives on the line wasting a ton of chakra and time on a second attempt is absolutely a terrible idea.


What in the world leads you to believe that the real Naruto could only create a mini bijuudama?  The only thing that prevented naruto from using a bijuudama is that he didn't get the 8:2 chakra ratio down yet.  The size of the bijuudama Naruto makes has no play on his ability to get that ratio down, therefore KCM Naruto can make as big a bijuudama as his form/chakra allows him to.  



Turrin said:


> What you fail to consider is when the clone facing BZ drew extra chakra from the collective tank. Just because he's shown using FRS in ch 562, does not mean he didn't draw extra kyuubi-chakra before ch562, as his fight against BZ began well before that. So no this does not prove the manga-cannon diagram of how this works. Try again.


Any evidence ANY EVIDENCE that what you are arguing is true? Why would he draw chakra from the tank before using that chakra?  By that logic, you can't formulate any kind of argument in judgement of the other clones as they, like the clone that fought BZ, could have just drawn tons of chakra out of the tank long before they did any fighting.  This is basically your entire argument, just making an assertion, giving zero evidence for said assertion and believing it's true as long as it can't be proven necessarily false.  There is literally no reason to believe your arguments are true, there is no positive evidence that supports it.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2014)

@ueharakk

I told you i'd be done, if you kept not acknowleding the author's own diagram of how KCM-Clones work. So I am done. I don't have the time to deal with someone who you can literally show a diagram the author drew, and they are still unwilling to accept what it illustrates. I even gave you a chance to at least acknowledge it as a possibility, and you still won't even budge then. There is no point continuing to discuss this shit with you at that point as I can literally show you manga-scans that demonstrate my view point and you still won't even accept them or even entertain the possibility. So clearly I'm never going to change your view point or even get you to understand where i'm coming from, and most of your arguments are just repeats at this point or things I've already explained (or shouldn't need to be explained) that aren't changing my mind at all, especially the way you've been approaching this discussion is not very conducive to me wishing to hear more of what you have to say, and is only making me want to give you joke responses, so instead of just completely devolving this into a flame ware, like I said i'm done. Sorry, but that's just how I feel.


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The reason he couldn't create anymore KCM clones is because the Kyuubi was absorbing his chakra. In-fact the manga outright states this here:
> * When kishi draws the picture of how the alliance is linked to naruto*
> * When kishi draws the picture of how the alliance is linked to naruto*


That can't be true since that wouldn't have prevented him or the clone from using the KCM cloak.  Even if we completely ignored that, Naruto had 13 other clones using KCM out.  That means his chakra was being drained at 13x the normal rate, yet despite that he's able to hold those clones for chapters after that with none of them showing the slightest bit of exhaustion yet he's unable to even maintain 14x the normal drain for an instant?  That's doesn't make any sense.



Turrin said:


> It's not that he lack enough kyuubi-chakra to put another clone in KCM, as we very clearly see him re-enter KCM after that point, showing he did have enough kyuubi-chakra to enter KCM.


 that means that he only had enough chakra for HIMSELF to enter KCM, and that splitting what chakra he has with another clone would drop him so much that he wouldn't be able to maintain the cloak.



Turrin said:


> It's obviously more time consuming to draw Naruto transitioning back and forth between KCM mode, than drawning Naruto in base. especially if Kishi had to do that for the dozens of clones on that panel.


Why is it more time consuming?  He doesn't even have to draw naruto transitioning, it can just be implied once he makes the clones, all he has to do is draw naruto with the cloak around him in one panel and then without it and tons of clones using rasengans in the next.  I



Turrin said:


> Show me the panel where it's stated Kurama gave Naruto the chakra before he used KB. All Kurama says is i'll lend you some chakra, than we see Naruto do the KB seal. No-where does it say specify the exact timing of when Kurama gave Naruto the chakra.


Are you asserting that Kurama gave Naruto AFTER he made the seal to use kagebunshin?



Turrin said:


> That's when in KCM-Mode already, not when he's in Base and just directly channeling all the chakra given him into a specific technique.  We literally see Naruto doing this same thing in the current chapters when he use YFRS and is only channeling Yonbi's chakra for that very specific Jutsu, and does not enter a Yonbi Shrouded mode.


Naruto instantly goes into KCM when he uses kurama's chakra, and the naruto you were referring to wasn't ever in base and is using a powerup that we've barely even seen.



Turrin said:


> So you have unprovable connection, that your asserting.


How long have you been on the forum?  Have you not even realized yet that if you want to be biased enough, that you can show EVERY argument as unprovable? And if you want to talk about unprovable assertions, just look at your arguments, and look at how many things you have to assert that you can't even support with a positive argument. Double standards.



Turrin said:


> *Defensive lol Madara was fucking around. *He literally took 7th-Gate Gai's strongest attack at point blank range w/ zero damage, than was about to effortlessly kill Gai if not for Lee saving him.  At least with Sasuke he used Limbo Hengoku.


Show me how madara was any more serious than he was against Sasuke.  You don't deny JJ Madara was put on the defensive, you don't deny that Madara casually fodderized sasuke with a sword while holding a conversation so I'm guessing you concede all of those points.  Plus, he didn't literally or figuratively take 7th Gated Gai's strongest attack, he LITERALLY had to disrupted it with his onmyouton staff.  So lets see, by your ridiculous portrayal logic, Madara was forced on the defensive by 7th gated Gai and had to use onmyouton to block one of Gai's attacks while a far far weaker madara casually walks up to sasuke and stabs him while calmly lecturing him which would logically and necessarily lead you to conclude that 7th Gated gai is much more powerful than EMS Sasuke.



Turrin said:


> Ginkaku gets hit by lazers, and despite their being no note worthy damage he is on the ground dazed for a bit:
> * When kishi draws the picture of how the alliance is linked to naruto*


We don't even see the affected area after the impact and Ginkakku is still able to sit up straight and talk.  So no on two accounts.



Turrin said:


> Plus no other Tensei was hit by an attack that was giant flashbang bomb like the FRS.


So what?  If you want to argue that it was because of the nature of the attack, then show give me some arguments.  



Turrin said:


> And finally you are reading too much into the artistic choices of the author. *Kishi wanted to draw Sandaime-Raikage on the ground like that so it seemed to readers like FRS defeated him,* so it would be more dramatic when Sandaime-Raikage got back up. You see to have gotten as far as the point where it seemed like Sandaime-Raikage was defeated and never bother to grasp that Sandaime-Raikage got back up and it was his shield credit for that not Edo-Rengen.


Do you have anything to back up the bolded other than your own opinion?  We've seen sandaime raikage take much more damage than FRS and still continue to fight, if he stayed down because kishi wanted the readers to believe he was defeated, then he would have shown at least more damage than the readers know he's able to take.



Turrin said:


> That's exactly what it means. How the hell would the internal damage even take place if FRS couldn't get through Raikage's strongest shield. Those mini-wind blades actually need to be able to pierce through Raiakge's body to get at the chakra network. We saw no sign that happened what-so-ever. And Kishi gave us no indicating that Sandaime only avoided this do to Edo-Regen. So again this is really nothing but fan-fic.


How did kakuzu's body look after he got hit by FRS?  Did kakuzu get damaged by the mini fuuton needles?  Also, Sandaime raikage's strongest shield IS HIS BODY, so why would the needles have to get through his body first.... in order to damage his body?   



Turrin said:


> Since you don't have nearly enough evidence to support your fanfic, concession accepted




you don't even know how to debate or what warrants a concession.  A tacit concession is given when a person ignores a point, since an ignored point or an unaddressed point is the equivalent of saying "I don't have any reasoning against X point", thus it's a tacit concession.  Calling an argument "lacking necessary evidence" doesn't warrant a concession, and if you want to make that assertion, then you have to back it up with some kind of argument.  I've given you a post with explicit proof of my argument, yet you've continuously just labeled it a fanfic without giving any reasoning. Thus I accept your concession.


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @ueharakk
> 
> I told you i'd be done, if you kept not acknowleding the author's own diagram of how KCM-Clones work. So I am done. I don't have the time to deal with someone who you can literally show a diagram the author drew, and they are still unwilling to accept what it illustrates. I even gave you a chance to at least acknowledge it as a possibility, and you still won't even budge then. There is no point continuing to discuss this shit with you at that point as I can literally show you manga-scans that demonstrate my view point and you still won't even accept them or even entertain the possibility.


I dare you to read my counterargument.  In there I show you exactly why interpreting the visuals of a scan in your own way is completely fallacious and can lead to ridiculous conclusions, especially if the visuals are there to explain something other than what you are trying to argue.  The focus wasn't on the mechanics of how kagebunshins utilize the kyuubi chakra, the point was that if the kagebunshin is using kyuubi chakra, kurama is going to be absorbing its chakra as well as naruto's.

If you go back and look at that scan you posted, you'll even see that the kagebunshin has its own chakra reserve equal to naruto's, thus why in the world would naruto using he kyuubi's chakra function any differently?  Kishi just didn't show the kyuubi's chakra split into two for the same reason he crops it almost completely out of that shot: because that's not the focus of the illustration.



Turrin said:


> So clearly I'm never going to change your view point or even get you to understand where i'm coming from, and most of your arguments are just repeats at this point or things I've already explained (or shouldn't need to be explained) that aren't changing my mind at all, especially the way you've been approaching this discussion is not very conducive to me wishing to hear more of what you have to say, and is only making me want to give you joke responses, so instead of just completely devolving this into a flame ware, like I said i'm done. Sorry, but that's just how I feel.


Dude, don't even go there. You're the guy who is unwavering in his stance regardless of the evidence.  Yesterday I showed you by literally EVERY way we argued about BDRS vs super bijuudama that BDRS HAD to have been more powerful than that, yet what did you end up doing?  "Unless two things are in the same panel, nothing can be concluded about their respective sizes" and "since i believe that BDRS < BM Naruto's BD, then BDRS < BM Naruto's BD".  Now tell me 

 Look back at our discussion on this topic.  Your posts are over 50% you asserting things without evidence that would support your own argument, and me trying to prove a negative.  And then when I do, you just retreat into another position more unlikely than the last.

The double standards that you pull in your arguments are amazing as well.  Since when have any of your portrayal arguments been about 'what attack beat X opponent'?  A sword beat Sasuke and EMS Madara, Hashirama was about to kill himself with a kunai, the majority of kage level opponents can be killed by a kunai, how does that have anything to do with how powerful they are?  

Finally, i don't care about 'what is possible'.  What I care about is 'what's the most probable' or 'what's the best explanation'.  Anyone can argue anything is possible, all you'd have to do is break down an argument into it's basic and unprovable assumptions and say 'hey you can't prove that is true/false' and then go on to argue whatever you want to argue.  Thus, the only thing that should be aimed at is the most plausible explanation, and brother, your explanations are far from it.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2014)

@ueharakk

I did read your counter argument and I didn't see anything in there that is making me disregard the diagram that the author draws specifically to tell us how KB works with KCM. Literally all I should have to show you is that diagram, and that should case close this discussion. I do not have any will to hand-hold someone through every issue he/she has with the diagram, when I don't see it making any difference. Your never going to believe the diagram and there is nothing you can show me that will make me not believe the diagram. It's not that I don't emphasize with your view point, I like Naruto as a character, and I originally thought every KCM-clone would be "dat"-clone level, with KCM-Naruto throwing around FRS-Barrage or some shit, but after the author has refused to show KCM-Naruto ever performing up to those standards despite multiple opportunities to do so and after taking a second look at that diagram it has become clear to me that Kishi never intended KCM-Naruto to be that strong. KCM Naruto is still great, he has enough Kyuubi-chakra where he can generate 13 clones and some of them can still draw enough chakra to use FRS or he can use Chou-Oddoma-FRS when not utilizing clones. As someone who was a fan of Naruto at the time I felt a bit trolled by KCM, but nether "feats" nor "portrayal" substantiate him being that strong, they just don't. By feats we did not see every clone producing the same quality of Jutsu as "dat"-clone only 2-3 others even produced FRS. By portrayal again the author has never had him peform on the level that he'd be at if all clones scaled to "dat"-clone level, and he could throw around 13 KCM-Clones + 13+ FRS + 13 Planetary Rasengan, etc.... I learned to accept that, I suggest you do the same.


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @ueharakk
> 
> I did read your counter argument and I didn't see anything in there that is making me disregard the diagram that the author draws specifically to tell us how KB works with KCM. Literally all I should have to show you is that diagram, and that should case close this discussion. I do not have any will to hand-hold someone through every issue he/she has with the diagram, when I don't see it making any difference. Your never going to believe the diagram and there is nothing you can show me that will make me not believe the diagram.


Of course that's what you'd say.  I could bring up every evidence on the planet, even evidence that conclusively and irrefutibly proved you wrong, yet you still wouldn't change your mind as long as you have some sort of straw to grasp at, and even without that straw, you'd still probably just copout like you did in our debate about the sizes of bijuudamas by claiming "the manga is inconsistent".  

The fact is that unless you believe kishi literally intends all of his illustrations to represent everything they display versus the mere point the illustrations are trying to make, then it does not follow that your point is true. 

Furthermore, many of your arguments would be falsified by that as the illustration shows that only a clone in KCM can be using that reservoir, and thus the clone reverting to base wouldn't be attached to it and thus couldn't have gotten more power or entered KCM up again.  But that's not even something that I have to even prove since you assert that that is true without bringing up any evidences for it.



Turrin said:


> It's not that I don't emphasize with your view point, I like Naruto as a character, and I originally thought every KCM-clone would be "dat"-clone level, with KCM-Naruto throwing around FRS-Barrage or some shit, but after the author has refused to show KCM-Naruto ever performing up to those standards despite multiple opportunities to do so and after taking a second look at that diagram it has become clear to me that Kishi never intended KCM-Naruto to be that strong.


The diagram had absolutely nothing to do with it, your opinion was set in stone from the very beginning long before you even discovered it.

There are tons of reasons why KCM Naruto CAN'T do that stuff against a singular opponent.  Most of them are due to the fact that he doesn't have anywhere near the chakra required since he's just reentering the mode, saving up for the more powerful bijuumode, or he's got his chakra spread across the alliance members, or he's fighting without the intent to kill.  

Let me ask you, does madara, obito, the juubi, and everyone in the manga consistently perform at their best?  Did madara use PS against the alliance?  Did madara get kicked in half by V1 rock lee?  Did the juubi just nuke the alliance out of existence or did it stand around and do nothing?  



Turrin said:


> KCM Naruto is still great, he has enough Kyuubi-chakra where he can generate *13 clones and some of them can still draw enough chakra to use FRS* or he can use Chou-Oddoma-FRS when not utilizing clones.


But what in the world do you base that on?  Why wouldn't the clones all have equal chakra?  If we only see one of the KCM clones fight and only glimpses of the others fight how in the world can you conclude that all the other clones that we haven't seen had less chakra in them or that they wouldn't be capable of using FRS or weren't using those attacks?

Why wouldn't Naruto using half of the kyuubi's chakra be capable of making 13 datclones?  All datclone did was a rasengan planet, a FRS and a bijuurasengan.  Yang Kurama has enough chakra to balance all the other bijuu's out.  *KCM is half of his chakra,* that's at least the equivalent of three bijuus, and we've seen how much chakra a bijuu has.  TBBs cost way more chakra than FRS of the same size to make, and *bijuus can casually fire off damas bigger than Chou oodama FRS.*

It gets even worse as current, fresh KCM NAruto would have Kurama's FULL chakra reserves at his disposal in addition to having kurama constantly generating chakra while he uses it.  How in the world would that make him unable to make 13 clones that are capable of using 1 FRS, 1 rasengan planet, and 1 bijuudama rasengan before running out of KCM?  




Turrin said:


> As someone who was a fan of Naruto at the time I felt a bit trolled by KCM, but nether "feats" nor "portrayal" substantiate him being that strong, they just don't.  By feats we did not see every clone producing the same quality of Jutsu as "dat"-clone only 2-3 others even produced FRS.


We didn't even see every clone fighting, and we barely had a panel or two of most of the other clones, so obviously we're not going to see every clone producing the FRS and stuff that datclone did.  Why in the world would that lead you to conclude that all of them are weaker or had less chakra?  It could be the case that they had even MORE chakra than datclone, were using FRS and even succeeded in using bijuurasengan.  If you want to argue that those clones didn't have as much chakra as datclone or couldn't do what he did, then you need an argument.



Turrin said:


> By portrayal again the author has never had him peform on the level that he'd be at if all clones scaled to "dat"-clone level, and he could throw around 13 KCM-Clones + 13+ FRS + 13 Planetary Rasengan, etc


KCM Naruto has never ever performed at that level for multiple reasons.  
1) in KCM he's never had that much chakra again
2) He's always conserving his chakra for the more powerful bijuumode
3) He's up against people far beyond the gokage
4) He doesn't even have intent to kill

So obviously he's not going to perform at that level with those four major factors inhibiting him.  Does that mean that if you restricted bijuumode, gave him killer intent, gave him his full chakra reserves and put him against people who can't solo the gokage, that that same would be true?  Obviously not.

And no one in this manga consistently performs at their max.  EMS Sasuke gets fodderized by rinengan madara while 7th gated Gai puts up a much better fight against JJ Madara.  Madara Obito and the Juubi get pushed back the the uncloaked reminants of the shinobi alliance without the ability to even mount an offense *while the shinobi alliance can't do anything to madara's PS.*



It's not about being a fan of the character or not, it's about objectively evaluating the manga with CONSISTENT logic that doesn't cross double standards.  And that's absolutely not what you do for KCM Naruto. 

In your evaluation of KCM Naruto, you limit the character to his absolute lowest possible chakra limits by assuming that his reservoir of chakra would only allow him to use the jutsu we've seen him do on panel.  How in the world is that intellectually honest?  By that logic, when Madara fought Hashirama for an entire day, you'd conclude that Madara is only capable of holding a skeletal susanoo for an instant and nothing more.

Your reasoning is completely motivated by personal biased.  You first make up your mind on a conclusion, and then you evaluate the character based on your preconceived conclusion no matter what kind of evidence is against your own or what kind of double standards in evaluation you have to pull in order to do so.  Anyone can generate an argument about ANY shinobi beating another that can't be proven necessarily false, does that mean that argument is in fact true?

Debate honestly for once in your life.  I'll tell you again, the reason I can argue with you for so long is not because I want my conclusions to be right so badly, it's because I really believe that they are by far the most compelling conclusions out there.


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## Turrin (May 28, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The fact is that unless you believe kishi literally intends all of his illustrations to represent everything they display


Are you kidding me with this 

Anyway, i'm out, I was just laughing so hard at that, that I had to say something.


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Are you kidding me with this
> 
> Anyway, i'm out, I was just laughing so hard at that, that I had to say something.


See this is what I'm talking about.  You are just utterly biased and literally don't care about truth. 

I've conclusively shown you and proven that out of context quote you've taken to be true.  *The manga shows Naruto only directly linked to three alliance members, * it's a complete contradiction to *this scan,* yet does that mean kishi literally wants to tell us that that's what's happening?   Or do you think kishi wants to tell us that there's no connection between naruto and his dormant chakra in the alliance while he's not manipulating it?  

Yet what do you do?  You don't even try to refute me, or use reason, you simply bring up an argument that I've already refuted, ignore the refutation completely, and just try to make it seem like what I'm arguing is irrational.

Anyways, since you've ignored the refutation, then again it's a concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


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## Stermor (May 30, 2014)

tobirama thought he could match vote madara lol.. but he doesn't have a way to circomvent the raikages durability.. 

tobirama is never ever getting hit. eventually he can just create a seal that would shut the raikages chakra down. and he's done.. remember tobirama has created hiriashin, aswell as his exploding tag thingie, aswell as edo tensei.. if he doesn't already know a seal to shutoff chakra, he can certainly just teleport away and create one...


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