# PR Beyonder vs. Kami Tenchi.



## Id (Oct 30, 2006)

Kami Tenchi by many (not me though) is considered a Multiversal God.

vs.

Pre-Rectonned Beyonder, the most powerful multiverse Cosmic Being Marvel has ever created.


So who would win this match among these 2?


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## Dr.Douchebag (Oct 30, 2006)

i guess nigh-omnipotent cancels out nigh-omnipotent? (i dont know much about PR beyonder and nothing abouy kami )


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

No nothing about Kami (God, on Japanese).
Is there a God in Tenchi Muyo?


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Yes Kami Tenchi 

TOAA=Kami Tenchi>Beyonder.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Cyborg Superman said:


> i guess nigh-omnipotent cancels out nigh-omnipotent? (i dont know much about PR beyonder and nothing abouy kami )



... And what's up with the nigh-omnipotence?
Beyonder clearly says ?



Beyonder ereases the Multi-verse.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Yes Kami Tenchi
> 
> TOAA=Kami Tenchi>Beyonder.


Ahh, stupidity at it finest ...  

Don't you realize ... While Kami is a fictional being, the creator (Marvel) is the writer.
I would like to see Kami, or any other fictional being, jump out from the paper and stalemate the writer ...  

The only reason I think of the Beyonder to be the avatar of the writer is because, Stan Lee stated:


> SL: Beyonder is supose to represent the power the *writers themselves* have over the comics.



It's not like every universe's supreme being is literally Supreme.
Dragonball for example: Gokou, the being who is above God's God's God's God (Kami). Still doesnt mean that he would stalemate the creator (Marvel).

Beyonder was literally the Supreme being under the 80's.
But not only that, _it was confirmed that he had the power of the writer's._

The creator (Marvel) ~ Pre-retcon Beyonder >> Presence

Because the Presence have no connection to the writer, it's just a fictional being.
Just like L sama (or Lord of Nightmared, her real name).



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Ahh, stupidity at it finest ...



Sorry   I take that back.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> No nothing about Kami (God, on Japanese).
> Is there a God in Tenchi Muyo?



The only reason I said this was because, I don't know Tenchi Kami.
But if it have access to the writer's power it would be a stalemate.

But not a win though, you cannot surpass the power of the writer's.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Thats very rude of you, if you disagree with me feel free to debate the topic with me, but don't turn to insults. I wouldn't triple post, use the edit button instead.

Marvel have also said meny times, The one above All is basically the writers, never appears in the comics, but beyonder DID appear by will of the writers, so beyonder by default doesn't have as much power over the comics as the writers(TOAA) do.
Kami Tenchi is the true god of the tenchi omniverse, you know, his will be done, nothing higher etc. Same as what comic people say the TOAA is.


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> The only reason I said this was because, I don't know Tenchi Kami.
> But if it have access to the writer's power it would be a stalemate.
> 
> But not a win though, you cannot surpass the power of the writer's.



That thing about beyonder going to the author is just a joke. She-Hulk brokes the fourth wall all the time. That makes her omnipotent?

If Pre-Beyonder is omnipotent....(something I truly doubt the best he could do would be stealmate with Tenchi who is truly omnipotent).

But If TOAA existed in Marvel when Pre-Beyonder was created then he isn't omnipotent. There is a reason for his name "the one above all". You can't be above him. It's impossible that 2 truly omnipotents co-exist in the same universe. That's the reason because the Choushin suspected all the time that a being higher than them existed.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> would like to see Kami, or any other fictional being, jump out from the paper and stalemate the writer



She-Hulk, Spiderman and many characters from Marvel have appeared next to Stan Lee menacing him. Stan Lee is an attention whore. Practically every superhero of Marvel has visited his office.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Marvel use the word omnipotent a bit too much, they called Thanos with IG/Cosmic Cube omnipotent etc, when he clearly wasn't.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> Thats very rude of you, if you disagree with me feel free to debate the topic with me, but don't turn to insults. I wouldn't triple post, use the edit button instead.


The debate's on.



> Marvel have also said meny times, The one above All is basically the writers, never appears in the comics, but beyonder DID appear by will of the writers, so beyonder by default doesn't have as much power over the comics as the writers(TOAA) do.
> Kami Tenchi is the true god of the tenchi omniverse, you know, his will be done, nothing higher etc. Same as what comic people say the TOAA is.


You are using the wrong term, the one above all is just stated to be the boss of the Living Tribunal, *the creator* however is the *avatar of the writer*.


But just an avatar of the writer. The writer could easiley take that comic and tear into pieces.
The avatar of he writer there could never fight a actual writer.

Stan Lee draw and painted himself on a paper - Tada - The creator.
Again the avatar is not literally the writer.

This was pretty much what Beyonder was, Jim Shooter made an avatar of his ideal-himself. And that come to be the Beyonder, be also awere of that Beyonder changed his appearance.
First he was blonde, looking like Captain America.

But both the creator (avatar of the writer) and Beyonder (avatar of writer: Jim Shooter) is supose to be equal.


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> The debate's on.
> 
> 
> You are using the wrong term, the one above all is just stated to be the boss of the Living Tribunal, *the creator* however is the *avatar of the writer*.
> ...



No. The One above all is the true god in Marvel Canon. Sometimes Stan Lee and other writers joke about this and appears personifying TOAA. A character from the comics will never have more power than the author. If the author is bored he can write that everything was a joke and turn the "omnipotent" useless.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> That thing about beyonder going to the author is just a joke. She-Hulk brokes the fourth wall all the time. That makes her omnipotent?


Be reasonable ... Since when have she been stated to be the most powerful being, in the Multi-verse and beyond ...



> If Pre-Beyonder is omnipotent....(something I truly doubt the best he could do would be stealmate with Tenchi who is truly omnipotent).


So Kami have the power of the writer's ... ?
When was this stated?



> But If TOAA existed in Marvel when Pre-Beyonder was created then he isn't omnipotent. There is a reason for his name "the one above all". You can't be above him. It's impossible that 2 truly omnipotents co-exist in the same universe. That's the reason because the Choushin suspected all the time that a being higher than them existed.


"The one above all" is the source of energy known as the Heart of the Universe.
When was the one above all, the Living Tribunal's boss mentioned? - Infinity Gauntlet.
And which being was supreme in the Infinity Gauntlet series? - Living Tribunal.

The whole idea with the one above all was to later surpass the Living Tribunal.
Who was *the top of the foodchain*.

"The creator" however is the avatar of the writer.

And no the creator was invented in the 21th centery.
And the one above all (not Celestial) - First mentioned ... Well it was after Beyonder was retconed.

And it was stated serval of times that Beyonder was the Supreme being, before the retcon.



> She-Hulk, Spiderman and many characters from Marvel have appeared next to Stan Lee menacing him. Stan Lee is an attention whore. Practically every superhero of Marvel has visited his office.



Vissited his avatar. - They didn't literally meet him, after all they are all fictional character's.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

vagnard said:


> No. The One above all is the true god in Marvel Canon. Sometimes Stan Lee and other writers joke about this and appears personifying TOAA. A character from the comics will never have more power than the author. If the author is bored he can write that everything was a joke and turn the "omnipotent" useless.


... The one above all (Not the celestial) have just been mentioned in the Infinity Gauntlet series.

Please stop making stuff up ...  

If you actually have any proof, than scan and post, or tell me which issue you found that information in.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Call it what you will.
The Living Tribunes boss = The One Above All = Marvel Writers.

Beyonder however, wasn't, he was an example of the power the marvel writers had,  but beyonder wasn't the one pulling the strings(No it was the writers who wrote the comic, not a fictional character).

Another thing, was Beyonder defeated? The True god of that Omniverse was defeated?


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> Call it what you will.
> The Living Tribunes boss = The One Above All = Marvel Writers.


Based on what your poor imaginaton ... ? Show proof or call him the cerator.



> Beyonder however, wasn't, he was an example of the power the marvel writers had,  but beyonder wasn't the one pulling the strings.


You mean that the picture of Jack Kirby in that issue was pulling the string's?



> Another thing, was Beyonder defeated? The True god of that Omniverse was defeated?


Please wait, I got some scaning to do.

Edit - Here is the scan:


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Be reasonable ... Since when have she been stated to be the most powerful being, in the Multi-verse and beyond ...



Be reasonable...Do you really believe that a fictional character called Beyonder visited our world?  The thing is the authors joke about that thing all the time. If you know what omnipotent means you will realize that you can't be higher than an omnipotent being. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> So Kami have the power of the writer's ... ?
> When was this stated?



I said that?. Do you need the power of the writter to be omnipotent?. It's stupid. You know is a joke so don't use as a feat. Beyonder couldn't never match a writter because any time Stan Lee and Jim Starlin can make a story about the Beyonder to be the clown of a circus. One story means nothing in the context of the writters. The writters were who let him broke the fourth wall in the first place. He can only do that feat because the writer let him. He couldn't never surpass the writter.




Michael Demiurgos said:


> "The one above all" is the source of energy known as the Heart of the Universe.



False. TOAA =/= Heart of the Universe. Thanos only defeated the M body of Living Tribunal...he wasn't even near of TOAA. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> When was the one above all, the Living Tribunal's boss mentioned? - Infinity Gauntlet.
> And which being was supreme in the Infinity Gauntlet series? - Living Tribunal.



Uh?. TOAA has been mentioned many times in Marvel. It doesn't matter because the only thing Thanos did with HOTU was defeat the M body of LT...we don't even know if he was more powerful than the real LT. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> The whole idea with the one above all was to later surpass the Living Tribunal.
> Who was *the top of the foodchain*.



You don't understand. TOAA = The Presence. TOAA is the creator...the absolute being of Marvel Universe. You can't be higher than someone who is "Above all". Don't you understand?. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> "The creator" however is the avatar of the writer.



The scan you showed never mentioned anything about an avatar. And like I said....many characters from Marvel have done exactly what Beyonder this. If you don't realize what a parody is I can't help you. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> And no the creator was invented in the 21th centery.
> And the one above all (not Celestial) - First mentioned ... Well it was after Beyonder was retconed.



Was the Beyonder defeated?. Yes. Is he omnipotent? No. He admitted to feel pain and he feel the burden of that power. A omnipotent being would never say things like that. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> And it was stated serval of times that Beyonder was the Supreme being, before the retcon.



That doesn't mean anything. Many characters in Marvel have been called omnipotent or absolute in certain comics: Eternity, Thanos, Warlock with the gems, Living Tribunal, etc.....but they aren't omnipotent. They are just too powerful...it's the same with the beyonder. Elaine Belloc could do exactly what the Beyonder did in Marvel (she could create multiverses and manipulate them at will).

Hell...the Choushin did what the Beyonder did. And they clearly aren't omnipotent. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Vissited his avatar. - They didn't literally meet him, after all they are all fictional character's.



Are you saying that Beyonder truly meet the writter in the real world?  Isn't the beyonder a fictional character?  

I recommend you a nice place to visit: the Arkham Asylum. What is your proof that Beyonder's visit is "less fictional" than the other heroes?


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Edit - Here is the scan:



Wait. If Beyonder was perfect in first place why he allowed to be defeated?. Wait...wasn't that the same Thanos did 3 times when he reached "Omnipotence"


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

He didn't tho, he was defeated and it was against his will 

Btw Thanos during 'The End' was manipulated by The One above All, during the whole comic, he mentioned this during Book 6 when he talked to adam warlock, it was TOAA's way of repairing the damaged 616 universe.

Again there was no appearence, but Thanos mentioned it again.

By your arguement, Thanos + Cosmic Cube = Beyonder. Again Thanos said he was Omnipotent, the writer said he was Omnipotent.


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## Dr.Douchebag (Oct 30, 2006)

there shouldnt be battles with such powerful beings because basically they have shown maybe like 5-10% of their power so these beings who i would imagine have no set limits cannot lose


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> Be reasonable...Do you really believe that a fictional character called Beyonder visited our world?  The thing is the authors joke about that thing all the time. If you know what omnipotent means you will realize that you can't be higher than an omnipotent being.


Vissited our world? - How, when?
Yes, Beyonder was supreme in the Marvel Multi-verse, and beyond.




> I said that?. Do you need the power of the writter to be omnipotent?. It's stupid. You know is a joke so don't use as a feat. Beyonder couldn't never match a writter because any time Stan Lee and Jim Starlin can make a story about the Beyonder to be the clown of a circus. One story means nothing in the context of the writters. The writters were who let him broke the fourth wall in the first place. He can only do that feat because the writer let him. He couldn't never surpass the writter.


A writer have never appeared in the comic's just avatar's of them.
If I draw myself on a paper it's not literally me.

And Jim Shooter made an avatar of himsef, looking as he wanted to look.



> False. TOAA =/= Heart of the Universe. Thanos only defeated the M body of Living Tribunal...he wasn't even near of TOAA.


I am aware of that.
But the one above all is supose to be a "M-body" of the one above all.
Which I might add is not the writer's avatar, *the creator* is.




> Uh?. TOAA has been mentioned many times in Marvel. It doesn't matter because the only thing Thanos did with HOTU was defeat the M body of LT...we don't even know if he was more powerful than the real LT.


The one above all, not the Celestial leader, was mention once by the Living Tribunal and once by Adam Warlock.

And it's supose to be the only power that's above the Living Tribunal, but if you read carefully Thanos says: Finally the *top of the foodcain* ... When he is refering to the Living Tribuanal.




> You don't understand. TOAA = The Presence. TOAA is the creator...the absolute being of Marvel Universe. You can't be higher than someone who is "Above all". Don't you understand?.


This is the Presence: Link removed

When you post a scan which says: The one above all is the absolute being I will agree with you.
But before that ... Nope.



> The scan you showed never mentioned anything about an avatar. And like I said....many characters from Marvel have done exactly what Beyonder this. If you don't realize what a parody is I can't help you.


Ok, if I set fire to that comic, will the writer Jack Kirby die?
I don't think you belive in voodoo either ...

Can that picutre jump out and force a writer to write something?



> Was the Beyonder defeated?. Yes. Is he omnipotent? No. He admitted to feel pain and he feel the burden of that power. A omnipotent being would never say things like that.


Just posted the scan ...




> Elaine Belloc could do exactly what the Beyonder did in Marvel (she could create multiverses and manipulate them at will).


As long as Vertigo is a universe (If you don't count the universe Lucifer created) ... She could not.



> Hell...the Choushin did what the Beyonder did. And they clearly aren't omnipotent.


Choushin? - In Japanese: Ultimate God's.
What did they do?
Who are they?



> Are you saying that Beyonder truly meet the writter in the real world?  Isn't the beyonder a fictional character?


Can't you read propebly I never claimed such a thing.
And fictional character's cannot get into the real world.



> I recommend you a nice place to visit: the Arkham Asylum. What is your proof that Beyonder's visit is "less fictional" than the other heroes?


What vissit are you talking about?!


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

vagnard said:


> Wait. If Beyonder was perfect in first place why he allowed to be defeated?. Wait...wasn't that the same Thanos did 3 times when he reached "Omnipotence"


Where the heck was it stated that Thanos allowed himself to be defeated?

Post scan's!


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

The Choushin's created the Tenchi Multiverse.
They searched for the true god of there multiverse in various ways over millions of years, Washu and Sasami found Tenchi who during his battle with Z, accended to his true form.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Where the heck was it stated that Thanos allowed himself to be defeated?
> 
> Post scan's!



Meny times!
Read Infinity Gauntlet 5 and 6, Adam Warlock told thanos he knew his secret, Thanos was allowing himself to be defeated due to knowing we truely didn't deserve the power he gained, it was the reason Thanos turned into a Anti-hero.

Please don't double post.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> He didn't tho, he was defeated and it was against his will


No he wasent, read the comic's insteed of speculating.



> Btw Thanos during 'The End' was manipulated by The One above All, during the whole comic, he mentioned this during Book 6 when he talked to adam warlock, it was TOAA's way of repairing the damaged 616 universe.


Yes ...



> Again there was no appearence, but Thanos mentioned it again.


Abstract cannot be sensed by the five senses given to human's.
The abstract Living Tribunal would be invissible as well.



> By your arguement, Thanos + Cosmic Cube = Beyonder. Again Thanos said he was Omnipotent, the writer said he was Omnipotent.


He have been dissproved, Beyonder has not ...


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> The Choushin's created the Tenchi Multiverse.
> They searched for the true god of there multiverse in various ways over millions of years, Washu and Sasami found Tenchi who during his battle with Z, accended to his true form.


You mean like ?

He's still bellow the Living Tribunal.




> Meny times!
> Read Infinity Gauntlet 5 and 6, Adam Warlock told thanos he knew his secret, Thanos was allowing himself to be defeated due to knowing we truely didn't deserve the power he gained, it was the reason Thanos turned into a Anti-hero.


True, he also allowed himself to be defeated when he gave up the Heart.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

I think your agree Thanos had more than '5 human senses' when he possesed the Heart of the Universe power. He knew there was someone behind everything that was manipulating him, thats all. Thats pretty much more than 99% of the marvel universe know.

Beyonder was defeated, his powers were matched during secret wars 2 by Molecule man anyway. He was in no way Omnipotent and didn't possess Omniscience either.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> You mean like ?
> 
> He's still bellow the Living Tribunal.



They created the Multiverse to search for tenchi, between the 3 of them i'd say they are equal to the Living Tribunal




Michael Demiurgos said:


> True, he also allowed himself to be defeated when he gave up the Heart.



If you knew its true how come you called for scans in your previous post?


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Beyonder was defeated, his powers were matched during secret wars 2 by Molecule man anyway. He was in no way Omnipotent and didn't possess Omniscience either.



First who is Molecule man?

(before Beyonder shows up)









Beyonder with limitations >> Molecule man.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> Beyonder was defeated, his powers were matched during secret wars 2 by Molecule man anyway. He was in no way Omnipotent and didn't possess Omniscience either.






He was Omni-potent, he allowed himself to be defeated.
The defeat's don't count ... Besides Beyonder was only defeated by Rachel when Beyonder ordered her to kill him.


And the funny thing is, he took them back.



> They created the Multiverse to search for tenchi, between the 3 of them i'd say they are equal to the Living Tribunal


Tsunami's? They together created the Multi-verse.
Living Tribunal is greater than Multi-Eternity who's equal to the 3 tsumani's.

And to search for someone? -- Beyonder call's them.




> If you knew its true how come you called for scans in your previous post?


The Infinity Gauntlet was not greater than the Living Tribunal.
But no one's power was greater than Beyonder's.


If he say's I am gong to be defeated, than he's going to be defeated.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> He was Omni-potent, he allowed himself to be defeated.
> The defeat's don't count ... Besides Beyonder was only defeated by Rachel when Beyonder ordered her to kill him.
> 
> 
> And the funny thing is, he took them back.



He clearly wasn't dispite what was wrote there (as i've said MENY times so far in this discussion, Marvel use these words very loosely, Thanos with IG was also claimed to have Omniscience but clearly didn't) beyonder was neither Omnipotent, as close too is as any marvel character has been.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Tsunami's? They together created the Multi-verse.
> Living Tribunal is greater than Multi-Eternity who's equal to the 3 tsumani's.
> 
> And to search for someone? -- Beyonder call's them.



Your using Z in your avatar without watching Tenchi Muyo  I don't think we are compairing a Chousin to Beyonder? They have done silmular feats as beyonder tho. Both being below Kami Tenchi.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> The Infinity Gauntlet was not greater than the Living Tribunal.
> But no one's power was greater than Beyonder's.
> 
> 
> If he say's I am gong to be defeated, than he's going to be defeated.



You didn't answer my question, why did you ask for scans about Thanos self defeat if you 'knew' the reason.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> He clearly wasn't dispite what was wrote there (as i've said MENY times so far in this discussion, Marvel use these words very loosely, Thanos with IG was also claimed to have Omniscience but clearly didn't) beyonder was neither Omnipotent, as close too is as any marvel character has been.


In the begining of the series he wasent Omnsient in the Marvel Multi-verse, but when he destroyed it and recreated it he became.

Beyonder was Omnipotent, he confirmed it, many other comic's did.
But appearently that means nothing to you? -- What do I need to post to make you understand that he was Omnipotent.



> Your using Z in your avatar without watching Tenchi Muyo  I don't think we are compairing a Chousin to Beyonder? They have done silmular feats as beyonder tho. Both being below Kami Tenchi.


Yeah, Beyonder slaped down Hulk, and so have Thor. - Does this mean that Thor is equal to Beyonder?

I am watching a crappy dub ...



> You didn't answer my question, why did you ask for scans about Thanos self defeat if you 'knew' the reason.


Forgot ...


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> In the begining of the series he wasent Omnsient in the Marvel Multi-verse, but when he destroyed it and recreated it he became.
> 
> Beyonder was Omnipotent, he confirmed it, many other comic's did.
> But appearently that means nothing to you? -- What do I need to post to make you understand that he was Omnipotent.



Post a scan of him defeating the only thing in the marvel universe that is Omnipotent, the marvel writers(TOAA).


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Post a scan of him defeating the only thing in the marvel universe that is Omnipotent, the marvel writers(TOAA).



You mean the avatar of the writer's?

I might add that the avatar of the writer (the creator) didn't do much as well he did just make The Thing, human. And claimed to be God.

But than again ... If he defeated the creator woulden't that make the creator's power finite?

I don't know if you have read Vertigo, but in the 80's there was a being called the Great Evil Beast, who was Presence's equal.

But both are seen as Omnipotent being's.

Point is: The creator showed up first in 2003.
That was when he was invented.

He is not ever-being ever-lasting as you think.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

you know what retcon means right? 
The 'Creator' as your putting it, wasn't around during secret wars 2, and beyonder isn't around (retconned) at the time this 'creator' was introduced.

The great evil beast was the balance for the presence.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> you know what retcon means right?
> The 'Creator' as your putting it, wasn't around during secret wars 2, and beyonder isn't around (retconned) at the time this 'creator' was introduced.


Yes by retcon they mean that it never happend, non canon.
Yet we speak about it as it has.
So ... The writer's retcon didn't quite affect the readers as much as it should.



> The great evil beast was the balance for the presence.


A truley Omnipotent being can erease whatever it want.
If the Presence didn't want balance he should be able to just remove it, however he couldent.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Yes by retcon they mean that it never happend, non canon.
> Yet we speak about it as it has.
> So ... The writer's retcon didn't quite affect the readers as much as it should.



It only seems to be you who is trying to link something thats been retconned with something thats canon in the future.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> A truley Omnipotent being can erease whatever it want.
> If the Presence didn't want balance he should be able to just remove it, however he couldent.



Maybe the Presence created him to balance the DC omniverse, i dunno what they have planned.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> It only seems to be you who is trying to link something thats been retconned with something thats canon in the future.


Perhaps, but the thread says: Pre-retcon Beyonder.



> Maybe the Presence created him to balance the DC omniverse, i dunno what they have planned.


Presence wanted it unamde, he even sent full power Spectre to do it for him, however Spectre failed.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Perhaps, but the thread says: Pre-retcon Beyonder.



Yes, but at the time when Secret wars 2 was published, the character known as 'The Creator' didn't excist, so any sort of comparision is invalid.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Presence wanted it unamde, he even sent full power Spectre to do it for him, however Spectre failed.



If you look at Christian Lore. The Christian god is considered Omnipotent but he has a enemy (Lucifer/satan/the devil). Since DC has always linked itself to christianity maybe they were doing the same thing.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> Yes, but at the time when Secret wars 2 was published, the character known as 'The Creator' didn't excist, so any sort of comparision is invalid.


So can you say that either is more poweful than the other? -- No therefore stalemate.





> If you look at Christian Lore. The Christian god is considered Omnipotent but he has a enemy (Lucifer/satan/the devil). Since DC has always linked itself to christianity maybe they were doing the same thing.


Not really, Lucifer was defeated and banished to hell by Michael.
God >> Jesus > Holy Spirit > Michael > Lucifer > Gabriel > Raphael.

In DC:
Lucifer was afraid of the beast.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> So can you say that either is more poweful than the other? -- No therefore stalemate.



Well for a start, 'the creator' looked more like a camo roll for stan lee, while ToAA/Beyonder were active.
And no i don't believe Beyonder was ever equal to TOAA, i've read SW1/SW2 and i have no doubt that Beyonder was the most powerful cosmic every introduced in a comic. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Not really, Lucifer was defeated and banished to hell by Michael.
> God >> Jesus > Holy Spirit > Michael > Lucifer > Gabriel > Raphael.
> 
> In DC:
> Lucifer was afraid of the beast.



You missed my point, if the devil is gods enemy and god is Omnipotent why does the devil excist unless god wanted him alive, same go's for GEB.


----------



## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> Well for a start, 'the creator' looked more like a camo roll for stan lee, while ToAA/Beyonder were active.


It was Jack (>^.^)> ... Jack Kirby



> And no i don't believe Beyonder was ever equal to TOAA, i've read SW1/SW2 and i have no doubt that Beyonder was the most powerful cosmic every introduced in a comic.


Stan Lee confirms:


> SL: Beyonder is supose to represent the power the writers themselves have over the comics.



Why do you think Jim Shooter changed Beyonder's appearence?

It was the avatar of the writer: Beyonder looked like he wanted to look.

The creator you speak of is an avatar of the writer.
The Fantastic Four wasent literally in his house, but merely illustraited out of his "imagination".

But of course, *we have to agree to dissagree*. The proof I gave was not enough to conive you, vice versa.



> You missed my point, if the devil is gods enemy and god is Omnipotent why does the devil excist unless god wanted him alive, same go's for GEB.


I'm not religious, but I have read both the Koran and the Bible.
For me God have used the devil to test human's nature.

Like when Satan tested Jesus in the destert.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2006)

Agree to disagree sounds good to me.


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## ez (Oct 30, 2006)

kami can do anything he wants
beyonder can do anything he wants

tie


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

There is one wierd thing though.



I am aware of that the Living Trbiunal though is more powerful than the race of ture Beyonder's or Infinities.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

ezxx said:


> kami can do anything he wants
> beyonder can do anything he wants
> 
> tie





Don't be fooled by the Pre-retcon DC vs Marvel talk.





So for the record:
Universe - Infinite
Multi-verse - Infinity amounts of universes
Omniverse - Infinity amounts of Multi-verses
Beyonder Universe - Infinity amouts of Multi-verses
Beyonder Multi-verse - ...


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## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

Kami Tenchi technically doesn't exist yet.  He might come into being, he might not.  It's really up to Tenchi.  There's an expectation that Tenchi will one day grow beyond the Chousin, but at the moment he's well within their bounds.  It's not set in stone.

As for feats, all Kami Tenchi has done is pimp one monstrous woman.  This had more to do with his personality and charisma rather then his ability.

In any case, L-sama would kick both their asses.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Wesley said:


> In any case, L-sama would kick both their asses.


Lord of Nightmares from slayers?   - Are you serious?


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## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Lord of Nightmares from slayers?   - Are you serious?



Absolutely.  Her and her shovel of DOOM.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Wesley said:


> Absolutely.  Her and her shovel of DOOM.


If we look panel-wise.
1. Created a couple of universes.
2. Granted Lina the power to slay Hellmaster Phibrizzo.

Just because they have the title Supreme, doesnt mean that they are exactly as powerful as other being's from other fiction's.

Supreme being in Naruto: Kyuubi
Supreme being in Dragonball: Gokou (after merging with the dragonball's)
Supreme being in DC: Presence

Could you honestly say that they are all equal?

If you look at her feat's, you will find them at Franklin Richard's level.

At the age of five he created cube universes.
And at full potential (What if...) He could create universes.


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## ez (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Don't be fooled by the Pre-retcon DC vs Marvel talk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so what're you trying to say about tenchi's powers? are you trying to say he's not as powerful as beyonder? 

i'm not sure but here's what I think happened in tenchi muyo, correct me if im wrong

Tenchi created the chousin and all multiverses(aka infinite multiverses) - the chousin have control over the multiverse(could destroy it/recreate it) but tenchi supercedes that.


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## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

What I am saying is L-sama's greatest limiting factor is herself.  She could have made more, but even an omni-potent being would stop to ask herself "When is enough enough?".  So she settled on four.  No one knows why four, probably not even L-sama herself though all she'd have to do is come up with a reason for four.  If she wanted to.

Call her lazy if you wish, but she is unbound with what she can do.  All she needs is an idea and the ambition to follow through with it.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

ezxx said:


> so what're you trying to say about tenchi's powers? are you trying to say he's not as powerful as beyonder?
> 
> i'm not sure but here's what I think happened in tenchi muyo, correct me if im wrong
> 
> Tenchi created the chousin and all multiverses(aka infinite multiverses) - the chousin have control over the multiverse(could destroy it/recreate it) but tenchi supercedes that.





> The extent of Tenchi's powers is unknown; at one point they rage out of control, forcing the Goddesses to step in and prevent a catastrophe. Tenchi also has an unexplained connection to a high-level entity, superior even to the three Goddesses.


This was all the info I could find on Kami Tenchi.
And where did you find the infinity Multi-verses info?


----------



## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Wesley said:


> What I am saying is L-sama's greatest limiting factor is herself.  She could have made more, but even an omni-potent being would stop to ask herself "When is enough enough?".  So she settled on four.  No one knows why four, probably not even L-sama herself though all she'd have to do is come up with a reason for four.  If she wanted to.
> 
> Call her lazy if you wish, but she is unbound with what she can do.  All she needs is an idea and the ambition to follow through with it.


Beyonder limited himself all the time; Yet he created:

An Multi-verse which contained an infinity amout of [Beyonder]-universes.
Each of this [Beyonder]-universes was infinity times bigger than the Multi-verse.

Well we could speculate about L-sama's powers but Beyonder have done more on panel.


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## Id (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Beyonder limited himself all the time; Yet he created:
> 
> An Multi-verse which contained an infinity amout of [Beyonder]-universes.
> Each of this [Beyonder]-universes was infinity times bigger than the Multi-verse.
> ...



Hate to say it but he does have you thier. Feat wise on panel Beyonder has done much more then Kami-Tenchi or L-Sama.


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## *~Z~* (Oct 30, 2006)

Id said:


> Hate to say it but he does have you thier. Feat wise on panel Beyonder has done much more then Kami-Tenchi or L-Sama.



Feat wise he's done more than TOAA and the Presence.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Id said:


> Hate to say it but he does have you thier. Feat wise on panel Beyonder has done much more then Kami-Tenchi or L-Sama.



Don't get me wrong, I know next to nothing when it comes to Kami-Tenchi.
And very little about Lord of Nighmares (have just started with the Slayers novel's.)
And as I stated in my first post in this thread, I cannot compare them, since I don't know both.
- But I can however tell about the Beyonder, and question Kami-Tenchi's powers.


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## ez (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> This was all the info I could find on Kami Tenchi.
> And where did you find the infinity Multi-verses info?



well it was sort of alluded to in the ovas but i might be mistaken. 

Tenchi's power can destroy all universes(wiki), i assume that means how ever many there are.


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## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

Just because the Beyonder likes to show off doesn't mean he's more powerful.

I would call into question Kami-Tenchi's existence though.  The whole point to Tenchi Muyo is the Chousin creating or finding a evidence of a being more powerful then them.  By the end of the show they hadn't succeeded.  Though they believe Tenchi might have the potentional, and a Tenchi-like being did help them to save the multi-verse, it doesn't mean that that anamoly was more powerful then the Chousin.

And L-sama does very little in the novels.  The only character that I believe to have done even less then her is Lina's older sister, who is another extremely powerful individual that chooses to live simply.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Wesley said:


> Just because the Beyonder likes to show off doesn't mean he's more powerful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

From L-sama's perspective, Beyonder is showing off.  Though she probably wouldn't care what he does.  Maybe.

Although that's an interesting thought.  I wonder how much of the Universe working together would be required to make the Beyonder succumb to peer pressure.


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## Vicious (Oct 30, 2006)

ok wait a minute if beyonder is truly a omnipotent and kami tenchi is a truly omnipotent obivously this is a tie the chousin's were basicly gods and tenchi went above them and his power threaten all(infinity) universes which he was able to control it before it happen. so,
a true omnipotent = a true omnipotent they cannot be defeated so its a tie thats only if Beyonder is a true omnipotent!


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

4thandnaruto said:


> a true omnipotent = a true omnipotent they cannot be defeated so its a tie thats only if Beyonder is a true omnipotent!



Define Omnipotent ...


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## ez (Oct 30, 2006)

is beyonder capable of destroying all universes like tenchi is?


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

ezxx said:


> is beyonder capable of destroying all universes like tenchi is?


Hmm ...

He destroyed the Marvel Multi-verse, which consists of an infinity amount of universes, which are each infinite.

After that he created an other Multi-verse, to replace it.
Each (Beyonder created-) universe was infinity times as big as the Marvel Multi-verse.
And he created an infinity amount of those, in his "Beyonder Multi-verse".

Than later he got bored because he was one with everything, so he unmade the creation of his Multi-verse, and recreated the old Marvel Multi-verse.

So ... Yeah


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## ez (Oct 30, 2006)

then it's fair to say they're equal in destructive capability


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## Vicious (Oct 30, 2006)

kami tenchi is infinity he cant be beaten just like any other true omnipotent, so this has to be a "Tie" inless im missing something that beyonder cant do?!


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

4thandnaruto said:


> kami tenchi is infinity he cant be beaten just like any other true omnipotent, so this has to be a "Tie" inless im missing something that beyonder cant do?!


Back in Secret wars there was nothing Beyonder could not do.

Well he there was a couple of things he said he could not do like:
Beyonder: One I killed Death I am not able to undo it.
But he undid it anyways.


----------



## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

So it probably can't come down to what they can do, but instead their personalities and motiviations.

If he does exist, I'd put my money on Kami Tenchi.  Harem training > all!


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## Vicious (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Back in Secret wars there was nothing Beyonder could not do.
> 
> Well he there was a couple of things he said he could not do like:
> Beyonder: One I killed Death I am not able to undo it.
> But he undid it anyways.


well than hes a true omnipotent he can do anything.
 im going to use a example, if beyonder was defeated in anyway or he cant do something than hes not a true omnipotent. that pretty much sums it up, if hes truely a omnipotent or not.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> So it probably can't come down to what they can do, but instead their personalities and motiviations.



Indeed, but Beyonder was supose to represent the power the writers have over the comics, so basicly he could do anything.



> If he does exist, I'd put my money on Kami Tenchi.  Harem training > all!


Hehe  

Wait until you've seen the Beyonder beating the Celestial's senseless with his bare fist's.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Vicious (Oct 30, 2006)

> So it probably can't come down to what they can do, but instead their personalities and motiviations.


very true, and i like kami tenchi's personality so he should win!  


> If he does exist, I'd put my money on Kami Tenchi. Harem training > all!


lol, wat r u talking about if u seen the ovas he became kami tenchi in the end, but he had trouble controlling it! but i havent seen the very last special so i could be wrong!


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

4thandnaruto said:


> well than hes a true omnipotent he can do anything.
> im going to use a example, if beyonder was defeated in anyway or he cant do something than hes not a true omnipotent. that pretty much sums it up, if hes truely a omnipotent or not.



This is probobly the best scan for that:



- Even the mightiest beings was as microbes to him.
In other words, it would be just as easy for him to erease a microbe as an abstract.


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## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

He's really full of himself.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Wesley said:


> He's really full of himself.


Nah, he just had problem with his Omnipotence.


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## Wesley (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Nah, he just had problem with his Omnipotence.



I hear L-sama contents herself with soap operas.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Wesley said:


> I hear L-sama contents herself with soap operas.


Well while she did that, Beyonder went for one night stands.









[Edit - My 100th post]


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Vissited our world? - How, when?
> Yes, Beyonder was supreme in the Marvel Multi-verse, and beyond.




That's the thing you don't realize. You always just say: Beyonder visited the writers...bla bla....Beyonder didn't visit the authors...he just visited a version of the authors inside a comic. They aren't the true author. 

Let me explain with an example. Marvel is a meta universe....some characters are conscientious that they are fictional. So there are 3 "Dimensions": Real World (the world you and Stan Lee lives), Real World Beta (it's a fictional world similar to us where Marvel characters are fictional and characters from that universe created Marvel Universe...Jim Starlin Beta, Stan Lee Beta, etc...it's just a random name i will use from now on...not an official name)

The difference is that Tenchi Universe doesn't TRY to be fictional unlike Marvel Universe...there isn't a self knowledge about their autenticity. Characters in Tenchi like most of the series are despicted like they live in our world with changes.  You will never see Masaki Kajishima talking with Tenchi or crap like that because under Tenchi standars Masaki Kajishima (the creator of Tenchi doesn't exist). 

So...if the Beyonder have beings over him like the writters then he isn't truly omnipotent...because he has limits...the limits the writters give him. 

In other worlds under your logic Tenchi Universe > Marvel Universe...because there are superior beings outside Marvel Universe that created it (Real World Beta) while there isn't characters that created Tenchi Universe from outside. The Choushin and Kami Tenchi are the end of the chain in Tenchi Multiverse....they belong to the Hyperdimension....the nexus between all the universe in Tenchi Universe. There isn't nothing higher them. Tenchi doesn't need to talk with the writters because the premise in Tenchi is that THERE ISN'T ANY WRITTER.....do you understand  now??. You logic makes no sense because you are trying to apply Marvel Rules to every universe.... If there are 2 different Multiverses each one governed by an omnipotent being then there is a tie.....BY DEFINITION YOU CAN'T BE HIGHER THAN AN OMNIPOTENT BEING AND TENCHI IS THE OMNIPOTENT BEING OF HIS MULTIVERSE. In that case Tenchi would be equal to the God of Real World Beta in Marvel because he would be the top of the chain in the fictional metaverse created by Marvel. Do you understand now?




Michael Demiurgos said:


> A writer have never appeared in the comic's just avatar's of them.
> If I draw myself on a paper it's not literally me.



That's exactly the reason because your whole statement about "the guy who has the power of the writters is futile". Because he hasn't really the power of the writters...he only has the power of fictional beings that represent the writters...these fictional writters aren't omnipotent because they exist under the influence of Real Writters of our world...the real beings that have the power to makes changes in a metaverse that admits  his own status as a fictional work. 

That doesn't apply to Tenchi because Tenchi Muyo doesn't attemp to be a fiction....there is no hint that they are fiction inside the story beside the fact you know is a fiction because its an anime. Tenchi Muyo is his OWN MULTIVERSE without external influences...unlike Marvel that recognize that these characters depends on higher beings that are representation of the writters....Under your logic I'm more powerful than Beyonder because I can burn my whole collection of Secret Wars. That's the reason because your logic fails....If Marvel Universe admits characters more powerful than them (fictional writters) then by definition there isn't an omnipotent being in Marvel Universe...because only one being can be truly omnipotent...otherwise would be a paradox.....If Tenchi is called omnipotent then by definition he will be equal to the higher being created by Marvel....TOAA or if you like the fictional writters....you just can't say that some guy is "more omnipotent" than other guy...that's stupid. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> I am aware of that.
> But the one above all is supose to be a "M-body" of the one above all.
> Which I might add is not the writer's avatar, *the creator* is.



It was never stated that TOAA uses M-bodies...only the cosmics use it. TOAA has never appeared in Marvel Universe. Cosmics are too powerful and can't interact with lesser beings because they are too abstracts...TOAA is omnipotent so he doesn't need an M-Body. He can do everything...he can appears as he like and make people understand his nature...if he needed an M-Body he would have a limit..therefore he wouldn't be omnipotent. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> The one above all, not the Celestial leader, was mention once by the Living Tribunal and once by Adam Warlock.



Nah. Living Tribunal like Spectre always talk about his boss. He always says that he works for a superior being than himself. It was stated that he is the master of the Living Tribunal and also the sole source of his powers.



Michael Demiurgos said:


> And it's supose to be the only power that's above the Living Tribunal, but if you read carefully Thanos says: Finally the *top of the foodcain* ... When he is refering to the Living Tribuanal.



Because Thanos doesn't know about TOAA....the higher being with Marvel characters interact all the time is LT so that statement isn't strange. 



This is the Presence: Avy v2



Michael Demiurgos said:


> When you post a scan which says: The one above all is the absolute being I will agree with you.
> But before that ... Nope.




This is stupid and you know. LT is the highest being we have ever seen in Marvel canon (and we haven't seen the true LT...only his M-body) (if you count the retcons) And he talks about his boss and call him the One Above All....It's clear that he is despicted as the highest being in Marvel...otherwise he would be a regular cosmic and would he show like the The One Above All eternal. It's different with the Eternal that we knew they have limits....This guy has never been showed in his true self and the highest cosmic being say that he works for him and his called THE ONE ABOVE ALL...do you know what ABOVE ALL means?.  It doesn't mean ABOVE ALL except Beyonder... (and no the Beyondest...coincidence?) it's mean his name....HE IS ABOVE ALL including the beyonder.


----------



## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Ok, if I set fire to that comic, will the writer Jack Kirby die?
> I don't think you belive in voodoo either ...



Jack Kirby is already dead. It doesn't matter if is still alive in the comics. Technically he can't change nothing right now....Jack Kirby Beta only have the powers that the current writters give to him. So...if Jack Kirby in the comics is more powerful than Beyonder...then Beyonder isn't truly omnipotent and Kami Tenchi would be equal to the highest being in the Real World Beta (the world where the fictional writters lives). 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Can that picutre jump out and force a writer to write something?



Like I say before...I don't need because that feat doesn't mean anything because that was a fictional writer. On the contrary...that feat only damages Marvel Characters powers because that shows they are fictional characters under the power of normal humans (the writters). On the other hand Tenchi works with other rules...Tenchi doesn't need to jump in the desk of Masaki Kajishima because the authors DOESN'T EXIST in Tenchi Muyo. Characters in Tenchi like in most of the series are written like they were real characters. The only proof of power you need of Tenchi is that he is the omnipotent being of his Multiverse...that alone puts him equal with any omnipotent being of other universe because by definition of the world you can't be higher than a omnipotent being. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> As long as Vertigo is a universe (If you don't count the universe Lucifer created) ... She could not.



Vertigo isn't a Universe. Not all the characters of Vertigo (like Y the Last Man or Fables) live in the same universe. Most of them are independent stories. But Lucifer, Sandman and Elaine ARE PART OF DC main's continuity. 

Like I say before....Daniel (the son of Morpheus and the new Sandman) has made guest appearances in two issues of the JLA (#22 & #23), in which he helped prevent the Earth from being taken over by 'The Conqueror', a giant starfish, and in which he repaid the 'debt' his predecessor had owed the Justice League for help in finding his ruby. He has also appeared in a handful of issues of JSA, in which he, among other things, transferred the prophetic dreams from Wesley Dodds to Sanderson Hawkins. In another appearance, he prevents the time-traveling villain Degaton from tormenting his parents. Still later in the series, Daniel, in the form of a magic mirror, tells Hector Hall (reincarnated as Dr. Fate) and Lyta about Sand, who is trapped in a dream world created, again, by Brute and Glob. In a 2006 issue of JSA (#80), Daniel brought the spirits of his mortal parents to live in the Dreaming after their deaths. Lucifer coexist with Sandman. Therefore..Sandman and Lucifer universes are part of DC regular continuity. Even some supeheroes went to Sandman's funeral and Martian Manhunter worship morpheus. Destiny first apparition was in a episode of Superman. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> Choushin? - In Japanese: Ultimate God's.
> What did they do?
> Who are they?



The Choushin are 3 goddess (Washu, Tsunami and Tokimi) they are 3 "sisters" that created Tenchi Multiverse (or Hyperdimension like is called in Tenchi). Each dimension or Universe in Tenchi is ruled by a "D" (Deus, Dios, God or what you want to call him). The god of our universe is called D3 (the gods from other universes are called D1, D2, D4, etc) In our universe that god tookl a form similar to the christian god...maybe by coincidence or maybe so the viewers could understand him. Above all the D or the rulers of the different universe exist the Choushin, the ones who created the Multiverse. (Any of them can create or recreate universes at will...in fact Tokimi worked alone for billions of years. But the 3 of them while they were the most powerful beings in the Multiverse they knew they weren't omnipotent...because it couldn't be possible that existed 3 omnipotent beings with the same amount of power...that's a paradox...that's why they suspected all the time that existed a being above of them. But because they created the whole Multiverse they couldn't find an answer outside of them. That's why they distorted the Multiverse all the time so from the chaos could born an unspected anomaly or answer that could be the answer of the existance of a higher being. That's Tenchi...an avatar of Kami Tenchi....the alpoweful an omnipotent version of himself....it's not clear in the series if he born from the anomaly...or Kami Tenchi existed all the time and connected Tenchi in the moment of his awekening. Kami Tenchi is by definition the supreme being of Tenchi Muyo. There isn't no one above or even equal to him. Like any omnipotent  being he is infinite so he has infinite more power than even the 3 Choushin together.  That's why you can't say that someone is "more omnipotent" than other...because by definition an omnipotent being is already everything...there isn't nothing even near to him. For an omnipotent being Galactus or an ant represent the same. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> Can't you read propebly I never claimed such a thing.
> And fictional character's cannot get into the real world.



Then if you understand the concept don't bring anymore that stupid point about Beyonder having the power of the writers...he only have the power of a fictional being that resembles the writer but it isn't omnipotent even in his own comic...because any other person from Real Universe Beta can kill Stan Lee or Jim Starlin. The Beyonder isn't omnipotent if Marvel Universe is just a drawing or a pocket universe created by another fictional character from another fictional universe like Real World Beta. In that case the highest being of RWB would be the truly omnipotent being and equal to Kami Tenchi




Michael Demiurgos said:


> What vissit are you talking about?!



Because you believe in an absurd feat that doesn't hold any ground and it isn't extrapolatable to other Multiverses from other series that doesn't use the same rules as Marvel Universe (like Marvel admiting inside of the comics that is a work of fiction)


----------



## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Wesley said:


> Just because the Beyonder likes to show off doesn't mean he's more powerful.
> 
> I would call into question Kami-Tenchi's existence though.  The whole point to Tenchi Muyo is the Chousin creating or finding a evidence of a being more powerful then them.  By the end of the show they hadn't succeeded.  Though they believe Tenchi might have the potentional, and a Tenchi-like being did help them to save the multi-verse, it doesn't mean that that anamoly was more powerful then the Chousin.
> 
> And L-sama does very little in the novels.  The only character that I believe to have done even less then her is Lina's older sister, who is another extremely powerful individual that chooses to live simply.




On the contrary...at the end they succeded. That's the whole purpose of the last scene with the choushin saying that they recognized their own limits inside their "omnipotence" and "omniscence". Kami Tenchi appeared from a few seconds...he even talked by human Tenchi inside his mind. Kami Tenchi was clearly in other level. The Counterreactor...the horrible woman like you say it's the opposite of the Choushin...a mechanism to limit their power and Tenchi stoped her and the Choushin in an instant. It doesn't really have anything with charisma...that being was ready to destroy the choushin and nothing could stop her...and being of that nature and mental state will not just heard Tenchi....Kami Tenchi just appeared the whole red evil thing she has over her dissapeared. The Choushin confirmed the existance of Tenchi. 

It's not confirmed yet if Kami Tenchi existed all the time and woken inside of Tenchi like an avatar or if Kami Tenchi born from the anomalies created by the Choushin. 

They don't believe Tenchi has the potential...they KNOW Tenchi is Kami Tenchi. The Choushin knew Tenchi had the potential way back in ova 11 when Tokimi confirmed that Tenchi's LHWs have material conversion...that's the reason Tokimi ordered Z to not attack Tenchi...while Washu and Tsunami wanted that Z killed Tenchi so he would lose that potential and they could bring back to life as a normal boy. But Tenchi surpassed both plans and he woken up but he didn't remained as Kami Tenchi for now at last.


----------



## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> That's the thing you don't realize. You always just say: Beyonder visited the writers...bla bla....Beyonder didn't visit the authors...he just visited a version of the authors inside a comic. They aren't the true author.


I never said anything like that, Beyonder did never vissit the writer ... What the hell did you get that from?



> Let me explain with an example. Marvel is a meta universe....some characters are conscientious that they are fictional. So there are 3 "Dimensions": Real World (the world you and Stan Lee lives), Real World Beta (it's a fictional world similar to us where Marvel characters are fictional and characters from that universe created Marvel Universe...Jim Starlin Beta, Stan Lee Beta, etc...it's just a random name i will use from now on...not an official name)


Speculation get's you no where ... Besides this makes no sense at all ...



> The difference is that Tenchi Universe doesn't TRY to be fictional unlike Marvel Universe...there isn't a self knowledge about their autenticity. Characters in Tenchi like most of the series are despicted like they live in our world with changes.  You will never see Masaki Kajishima talking with Tenchi or crap like that because under Tenchi standars Masaki Kajishima (the creator of Tenchi doesn't exist).


Yes, but in a series, the writer can do anything.
It doesnt apply to one character, as previously stated:
Many being's have claimed Omnipotence, but that doesn't mean they are ...

But the writer can literally do anything, even turn Kami-Tenchi into a piece of toilet paper.

It doesnt matter how powerful a fictional character really is, the writer/editor can allways easiley remove all of it's power.



> So...if the Beyonder have beings over him like the writters then he isn't truly omnipotent...because he has limits...the limits the writters give him.


Being's above him?
He was literally the avatar of the writer, just as much as Jack Kirby was in that F4 issue.

They don't possess the power of the writer, no fictional character can, but they represent it.



> In other worlds under your logic Tenchi Universe > Marvel Universe...because there are superior beings outside Marvel Universe that created it (Real World Beta) while there isn't characters that created Tenchi Universe from outside. The Choushin and Kami Tenchi are the end of the chain in Tenchi Multiverse....they belong to the Hyperdimension....the nexus between all the universe in Tenchi Universe. There isn't nothing higher them. Tenchi doesn't need to talk with the writters because the premise in Tenchi is that THERE ISN'T ANY WRITTER.....do you understand  now??. You logic makes no sense because you are trying to apply Marvel Rules to every universe.... If there are 2 different Multiverses each one governed by an omnipotent being then there is a tie.....BY DEFINITION YOU CAN'T BE HIGHER THAN AN OMNIPOTENT BEING AND TENCHI IS THE OMNIPOTENT BEING OF HIS MULTIVERSE. In that case Tenchi would be equal to the God of Real World Beta in Marvel because he would be the top of the chain in the fictional metaverse created by Marvel. Do you understand now?



... Which beings are ?outside? the Multi-verse?
Abstract's are omnipresent ... Omnipresent.

If I make a movie/write a comic/-novel than I can easiley say: This guy is God, with infinite power and true omnipotence. I can even prove it on a panel.

But I can make that character turn into a nice pair of jean's in whichever scen/chapter I want.



> That's exactly the reason because your whole statement about "the guy who has the power of the writters is futile". Because he hasn't really the power of the writters...he only has the power of fictional beings that represent the writters...these fictional writters aren't omnipotent because they exist under the influence of Real Writters of our world...the real beings that have the power to makes changes in a metaverse that admits  his own status as a fictional work.


No he didn't actually had the power of the writer's but he represented them.
So he is supose to be capable of everything the writer is.

By the way, speculation is not the way to go.



> That doesn't apply to Tenchi because Tenchi Muyo doesn't attemp to be a fiction....there is no hint that they are fiction inside the story beside the fact you know is a fiction because its an anime. Tenchi Muyo is his OWN MULTIVERSE without external influences...unlike Marvel that recognize that these characters depends on higher beings that are representation of the writters....Under your logic I'm more powerful than Beyonder because I can burn my whole collection of Secret Wars. That's the reason because your logic fails....If Marvel Universe admits characters more powerful than them (fictional writters) then by definition there isn't an omnipotent being in Marvel Universe...because only one being can be truly omnipotent...otherwise would be a paradox.....If Tenchi is called omnipotent then by definition he will be equal to the higher being created by Marvel....TOAA or if you like the fictional writters....you just can't say that some guy is "more omnipotent" than other guy...that's stupid.



You calling my statement stupid?  You should read your own once again.




> It was never stated that TOAA uses M-bodies...only the cosmics use it. TOAA has never appeared in Marvel Universe. Cosmics are too powerful and can't interact with lesser beings because they are too abstracts...TOAA is omnipotent so he doesn't need an M-Body. He can do everything...he can appears as he like and make people understand his nature...if he needed an M-Body he would have a limit..therefore he wouldn't be omnipotent.


I miss-typed, I was ment to say that the Heart was a "M-body" of TOAA, because TOAA was said to be the *only* being  above the Living Tribunal.
And if you can destroy everything that reaches that universe, even a M-body of the Living Tribunal ... Who was second only to TOAA.

However, don't mess TOAA up with the creator.

TOAA = Fictional being whom is above the Living Tribunal.
TOAA was only mentioned in Jim Starlin's series: The Infinity Gauntlet.

The creator = The avatar of the writer. - As close to omnipotence a fictional character can get.



> Nah. Living Tribunal like Spectre always talk about his boss. He always says that he works for a superior being than himself. It was stated that he is the master of the Living Tribunal and also the sole source of his powers.



Yeah I would like to see that for myself ... Please post -- I'm rather sure about this so ... Lier!



> Because Thanos doesn't know about TOAA....the higher being with Marvel characters interact all the time is LT so that statement isn't strange.


Which means?

- He had universal power yet he pwned the second most powerful being.
In other word's TOAA's power in a universe.




> This is the Presence: Avy v2


Yes I posted that ... so what?



> This is stupid and you know. LT is the highest being we have ever seen in Marvel canon (and we haven't seen the true LT...only his M-body) (if you count the retcons) And he talks about his boss and call him the One Above All....It's clear that he is despicted as the highest being in Marvel...otherwise he would be a regular cosmic and would he show like the The One Above All eternal. It's different with the Eternal that we knew they have limits....This guy has never been showed in his true self and the highest cosmic being say that he works for him and his called THE ONE ABOVE ALL...do you know what ABOVE ALL means?.  It doesn't mean ABOVE ALL except Beyonder... (and no the Beyondest...coincidence?) it's mean his name....HE IS ABOVE ALL including the beyonder.


I am aware of the name "the one above all" -- But I wouldent take it so literally, because there's a Celestial with the same name ...


----------



## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> > Jack Kirby is already dead. It doesn't matter if is still alive in the comics. Technically he can't change nothing right now....Jack Kirby Beta only have the powers that the current writters give to him. So...if Jack Kirby in the comics is more powerful than Beyonder...then Beyonder isn't truly omnipotent and Kami Tenchi would be equal to the highest being in the Real World Beta (the world where the fictional writters lives).
> 
> 
> Your beta-world-*spectulation* means nothing, it based on nothing else than your poor imagination.
> ...


I want the past 40 minutes of my life back ...


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

One question ... What really makes you think Kami Tenchi is omnipotent?


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> One question ... What really makes you think Kami Tenchi is omnipotent?


Tomorrow I travel (don't know exactly what time) to London with my family and I won't be back for a couple of day's.
- I probobly won't have access to an computer (which is actually good, because I planed to study on the halloween-break)

Anyhow the point is.
You cannot really define Omnipotence.
In term's of statement's? - Thanos with the Gauntlet claimed to be omnipotent.
In term's of panel evidence? - Beyonder did more with his power than probobly ever will be displayed again.

But still Jim Shooter (wrtier of the Secret Wars sereis) could do whatever he wanted to Beyonder.

Just like Jack Kirby could do to the illustration of himself.
For example: He could make Reed strange that avatar.

Just like the editor/author of any series can do to any character in it, no matter how much have been proven and stated.

---

But Beyonder was supose to represent the power the writer's have over the series.
Which means: The thing's that the wrtier could do, Beyonder could do as well.
But Beyonder did not have the authority. - There is a differance.

No being can have the authority of the writer.
And no writer/editor can actually take place in a fictional world.

But as far as fictional character's go ... I have to say that being's that are supose to illutrate the power of the writer's are on the top.

Feat's and statement's made/preformed by a being does not actually count as omnipotence. - It's first when a editor confirmes that he have that kind of power, it does. 

Sorry for bashing you before Vagnard, I'm just tierd and you're long speach made me even more tierd.


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## ~Shin~ (Oct 30, 2006)

if they're both omnipotent then it'd just be a stalemate since omnipotence=omnipotence


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

Firemind said:


> if they're both omnipotent then it'd just be a stalemate since omnipotence=omnipotence


Infinity is never equal to infinity.
Infinity > < Infinity

It's like saying: Infinity + 1 > Infinity - You cannot get higher than infinity.

Yet in fiction's it's quite possble.
Eternity possess the power of a universe.

Universe - Infinite
Multi-verse - Infinity universes : makes a universe finite
 - Infinity multi-verses : makes a multi-verse finite
--
Beyonder Universe - Infinity multi-verses (in term's of size) : makes the multi-verse finite - Just like the Omni-verse.
Beyonder Multi-verse - Infinity Beyonder universes : makes a Beyonder universe finite

As I said you have to define omnipotence.

The point.
[Question] What made Tenchi Muyo omnipotent


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## ez (Oct 30, 2006)

what made him omnipotent is that he wields the ultimate power in all the universe(s), that's what omnipotent is; one whose almighty, cannot be superseded.


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> I never said anything like that, Beyonder did never vissit the writer ... What the hell did you get that from?





Michael Demiurgos said:


> Beyonder was literally the Supreme being under the 80's.
> But not only that, it was confirmed that he had the power of the writer's.



LOL. What are you smoking?. You were the one who started this whole bullshit about the Beyonder having the power of the writers. Like I said before. Beyonder only has the power of a character that represent the writer but it isn't the writer himself. It's just another character from the comic and he is limited like the author like any character. The difference is that in Tenchi Muyo the "writer" doesn't exist. In Tenchi Muyo is assumed that we are talking about the real world. Tenchi Characters aren't under the influence of a fictional real world that is at the same time under the influence of the real world. 

If it's too hard for you to understand.

-Real World > Fictional Real world of the fictional writers > Marvel Universe

-Real World > Tenchi Muyo. But only because we as real humans beings knows that Tenchi is a fiction. But inside the series characters from Tenchi Universe doesn't state themselves as fiction. 

Think about the Matrix. Neo could fly and kick ass inside. But outside he still could be disconected. His omnipotence wasn't real. He was just poweful inside a certain sphere of influence under certain rules. 

Well. In the case of Tenchi there isn't a "Matrix" except for the True Real World. But we as a viewers are supposed to take Tenchi Universe as one own Multiverse. Tenchi INSIDE his story isn't limited by writers while Marvel characters under your own perspective are limited by fictional writers. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Speculation get's you no where ... Besides this makes no sense at all ...



Good way to dodge my answer. That's no speculation. That was an example using a provisional name. There is a real world? yes. There is a fictional world that represent our world in Marvel? yes. There is a Marvel Universe? yes. Then the point works perfectly and you are just avoiding the core of the matter or I assume then you concede my point . You are the one who makes no sense. You bring a non-sensical point to the debate about Beyonder having the power of the writers....Like I said before...that means shit because they are fictional writers and you have no proof that they are more powerful than omnipotent beings from other series. You fail to realize  that. Your pity rules of marvel doesn't apply to every universe because most the anime doesn't assume that they are a fictional world inside a fictional world (the world of the fictional writers). 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> Yes, but in a series, the writer can do anything.
> It doesnt apply to one character, as previously stated:
> Many being's have claimed Omnipotence, but that doesn't mean they are ...




In the case of Tenchi yes. Because the whole series revolves about finding the omnipotent being that is Kami Tenchi at the end. Even Kajishima stated that  in the Novels and Tenchi Muyo 101 secrets. Kami Tenchi is the god of Tenchi Multiverse and a truly omnipotent being. You are confusing the beyonder who stated many times that he was omnipotent and he still allowed to be defeated?...Why a perfect being would do that?. It's stupid. The Beyonder isn't omnipotent. He was nigh omnipotent in the sense in that moment nobody could match his power. But he never faced the One Above All. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> But the writer can literally do anything, even turn Kami-Tenchi into a piece of toilet paper.
> 
> It doesnt matter how powerful a fictional character really is, the writer/editor can allways easiley remove all of it's power.



That WAS MY POINT....you lack of reading comprehension?. You were the one who said that Beyonder had the power of the writers and I say that was bullshit because he should exist in the real world to have that power. And the "omnipotent" writers can be killed by regular people. In the case of Marvel there is a fictional world similar to us where a fictional Jim Starlin and Stan Lee lives...and they are just regular humans there. So the "GODS" of Marvel are regular people in another fictional world. That doesn't help your point. 

So of course Tenchi could be destroyed by Kajishima. But the difference is that you will never see Kajishima inside of a Tenchi Muyo episode...because unlike Marvel, Tenchi Muyo isn't view as a fictional world inside of it. Tenchi Multiverse isn't a pocket universe of another fictional world unlike Marvel. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> Being's above him?
> He was literally the avatar of the writer, just as much as Jack Kirby was in that F4 issue.
> 
> They don't possess the power of the writer, no fictional character can, but they represent it.



The avatar of the writer means shit when you are comparing to different series. Specially when one series doesn't view itself as a fictional work. In the case of Marvel that just means the fictional writers are the true gods (or the god of the fictional world of the fictional writers) and one of them is the true omnipotent being. In any case. The most powerful character in marvel...it doesn't matter if you are talking about the fictional writers or TOAA can only tie with Tenchi who is the omnipotent being of his own series. You can't make categories of "omnipotents" because there isn't degrees of omnipotence...you are omnipotent or you aren't omnipotent...that's it.  



Michael Demiurgos said:


> .. Which beings are ?outside? the Multi-verse?
> Abstract's are omnipresent ... Omnipresent.
> 
> If I make a movie/write a comic/-novel than I can easiley say: This guy is God, with infinite power and true omnipotence. I can even prove it on a panel.




Please....read. I'm talking outside the Multiverse inside the Tenchi Muyo series. Like the Beyond Realm and Universe 616. I'm the one who was saying all the time that the Beyonder can have the power of the writers (like you said). Tenchi is omnipotent inside the limits of Tenchi Muyo series. Of course the author can kill him. But inside the fictional story he hasn't any limits...the difference is that PR Beyonder has limits inside the fictional world. The avatars of the authors who are fictional characters too. In Tenchi there isn't avatars because like I say for 10000 times....TENCHI MUYO IS A MULTIVERSE THAT DOESN'T CON SIDER ITSELF A WORK OF FICTION  THAT EXIST IN ANOTHER FICTIONAL WORLD LIKE THE WORLD OF THE AVATAR OF THE WRITERS OR THE FICTIONAL WRITERS LIKE YOU WANT TO SAY. You point is futile because you have no means to prove these Avatars of the writers are stronger than an omnipotent character from other series.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

ezxx said:


> what made him omnipotent is that he wields the ultimate power in all the universe(s), that's what omnipotent is; one whose almighty, cannot be superseded.


But you are aware of that the writer/editor could easiley unmake that ...
And the writer/editor could invent new powers that surpassed it.

So the really true omnipotence is really to have the power of the writer's.
But a fictional can not have the authority of the writer's.

Maybe I am a bit unclear, but I have been studyed and replaying on this forum the past ... 17 hours ... zzz


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Infinity is never equal to infinity.
> Infinity > < Infinity
> 
> It's like saying: Infinity + 1 > Infinity - You cannot get higher than infinity.
> ...



The name Omniverse was created for an early-1980's semi-professional comic book fan magazine which explored the ramifications of the DC Comics and Marvel Comics combined Multiverses (see Multiverse (DC Comics), Multiverse (Marvel Comics)). So it isn't official in first place and it's only valid for Marvel and DC universes. You can't use to compare with other series...specially Tenchi Muyo....where the term used is Hyperdimension. (and we know there are dimensions inside other dimensions like Washu laborary or GXP vessels)...so technically there are group of universes who are part of a bigger universe who are part of a group of universes. That's why I said you can't take Marvel's word and spread to every series like the holy word. 

Tenchi is omnipotent because Kajishima says he is omnipotent. Because the Choushin say he is omnipotent. Because he is the result of the Choushin searching an omnipotent being. Because his power is unrivaled in his series. Because he stopped the Choushin War and stopped in an instant the Counterractor, the being who was beating the crap out the Choushin, the Goddess who created the Hyperdimension. Because the whole purpose of the series was Tenchi discover his true self. That he was god or part of God. Because there isn't a lame self insert like Jim Starlin and Stan Lee taking the credibility of the series. That's enough?


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## ez (Oct 30, 2006)

until the writer decides to take his omnipotence away he'll remain that way...


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> But you are aware of that the writer/editor could easiley unmake that ...
> And the writer/editor could invent new powers that surpassed it.
> 
> So the really true omnipotence is really to have the power of the writer's.
> ...



That point is stupid. You are taking every character of fiction as meta creations that are aware that they are fictional worlds. Then this whole debate is fruitless and there isn't nothing omnipotent because they are fictional in first place. 

No. That point only works against you because only in Marvel the writers have direct participation inside the story unlike Tenchi Muyo where the writers and Tenchi are separate entities that doesn't coexist (and can't coexist in the same series)


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> LOL. What are you smoking?. You were the one who started this whole bullshit about the Beyonder having the power of the writers. Like I said before. Beyonder only has the power of a character that represent the writer but it isn't the writer himself. It's just another character from the comic and he is limited like the author like any character. The difference is that in Tenchi Muyo the "writer" doesn't exist. In Tenchi Muyo is assumed that we are talking about the real world. Tenchi Characters aren't under the influence of a fictional real world that is at the same time under the influence of the real world.


Read again I said that Stan Lee was confirming this:


> SL: Beyonder is supose to represent the power the wrtiers themselves have over the comic's.



And the creator of the Tenchi Muyo series can easiley control how it should end ... Yes ... Even turn Kami Tienchi into a nice roll of toilet-paper.
The entire Tenchi Muyo concept is like any other a slave to the author/editor.



> If it's too hard for you to understand.
> 
> -Real World > Fictional Real world of the fictional writers > Marvel Universe


Not really, this haven't even been proved ... So why make thing's up?
The "fictional real world of he fictional character's" as you call it is a part of Marvel Universe.



> -Real World > Tenchi Muyo. But only because we as real humans beings knows that Tenchi is a fiction. But inside the series characters from Tenchi Universe doesn't state themselves as fiction.


 ... When did a Marvel character ever stated to be a fictional character?



> Think about the Matrix. Neo could fly and kick ass inside. But outside he still could be disconected. His omnipotence wasn't real. He was just poweful inside a certain sphere of influence under certain rules.


1. Neo could die.
2. Neo did die.
3. I'm not even sure you got the concept of the Matrix.
Machines grow human's on field's because they needed the energy.
To keep the human's alive they connected a part of their brain to a virtual world.
Some human's broke free, somehow, and started a revolutional battle against the machines, the Matrix was never a real world.



> Well. In the case of Tenchi there isn't a "Matrix" except for the True Real World. But we as a viewers are supposed to take Tenchi Universe as one own Multiverse. Tenchi INSIDE his story isn't limited by writers while Marvel characters under your own perspective are limited by fictional writers.


Again ... The editor is the one that decides every move any being in that Multi-verse do.



> Beyonder having the power of the writers....Like I said before...that means shit because they are fictional writers and you have no proof that they are more powerful than omnipotent beings from other series. You fail to realize  that. Your pity rules of marvel doesn't apply to every universe because most the anime doesn't assume that they are a fictional world inside a fictional world (the world of the fictional writers).



Every God in every fictional world is a slave to the creator of the series.
The creator of the series decides the story ect.
It doesnt matter if Tenchi is aware of it or not ... Still a slave ...




> In the case of Tenchi yes. Because the whole series revolves about finding the omnipotent being that is Kami Tenchi at the end. Even Kajishima stated that  in the Novels and Tenchi Muyo 101 secrets. Kami Tenchi is the god of Tenchi Multiverse and a truly omnipotent being. You are confusing the beyonder who stated many times that he was omnipotent and he still allowed to be defeated?...Why a perfect being would do that?. It's stupid. The Beyonder isn't omnipotent. He was nigh omnipotent in the sense in that moment nobody could match his power. But he never faced the One Above All.


Marvel Wrtier = Tenchi Muyo Editor >> Everything in the Tenchi Multi-verse.
Even Kami Tenchi himself can be turned into a ... *Nice roll of toilet paper*



> That WAS MY POINT....you lack of reading comprehension?. You were the one who said that Beyonder had the power of the writers and I say that was bullshit because he should exist in the real world to have that power. And the "omnipotent" writers can be killed by regular people. In the case of Marvel there is a fictional world similar to us where a fictional Jim Starlin and Stan Lee lives...and they are just regular humans there. So the "GODS" of Marvel are regular people in another fictional world. That doesn't help your point.


I said he represent the power of the writers.
He is capable of anything the writer is.

However: He does not have the authority of the wrtier.
Only the wrtier has that.

And "the creator" you saw illustrated in the F4 series was not the writer, but an avatar of him. But that avatar had the power of the writer's as well, but not the authority, to have any authority at all you need a mind of your own.
And the writer "thinks" for everyone in his comic.



> So of course Tenchi could be destroyed by Kajishima. But the difference is that you will never see Kajishima inside of a Tenchi Muyo episode...because unlike Marvel, Tenchi Muyo isn't view as a fictional world inside of it. Tenchi Multiverse isn't a pocket universe of another fictional world unlike Marvel.


She could, but she don't make an avatar that appears for her.
She could never talk to the beings in Tenchi Muyo, because they arent real.
She need to make an avatar of herself to do so.



> The avatar of the writer means shit when you are comparing to different series. Specially when one series doesn't view itself as a fictional work. In the case of Marvel that just means the fictional writers are the true gods (or the god of the fictional world of the fictional writers) and one of them is the true omnipotent being. In any case. The most powerful character in marvel...it doesn't matter if you are talking about the fictional writers or TOAA can only tie with Tenchi who is the omnipotent being of his own series. You can't make categories of "omnipotents" because there isn't degrees of omnipotence...you are omnipotent or you aren't omnipotent...that's it.


Omnipotent in the series, well, half correct, because it's the editor that control's their power as well as how they should think.





> Please....read. I'm talking outside the Multiverse inside the Tenchi Muyo series. Like the Beyond Realm and Universe 616. I'm the one who was saying all the time that the Beyonder can have the power of the writers (like you said). Tenchi is omnipotent inside the limits of Tenchi Muyo series. Of course the author can kill him. But inside the fictional story he hasn't any limits...the difference is that PR Beyonder has limits inside the fictional world. The avatars of the authors who are fictional characters too. In Tenchi there isn't avatars because like I say for 10000 times....TENCHI MUYO IS A MULTIVERSE THAT DOESN'T CON SIDER ITSELF A WORK OF FICTION  THAT EXIST IN ANOTHER FICTIONAL WORLD LIKE THE WORLD OF THE AVATAR OF THE WRITERS OR THE FICTIONAL WRITERS LIKE YOU WANT TO SAY. You point is futile because you have no means to prove these Avatars of the writers are stronger than an omnipotent character from other series.


The Beyond-realm: The infinity beyond infnity.
It's wierd ... Even though the Marvel Multi-verse was infinite it was nohing compared to the Beyond-realm.

No you missed my point ... The beings that represent the power of the writers are truley omnipotent, the writer cannot give them more power.
-But of course the writer have the authority to take it away.

However I question Kami Tenchi, can he be given more power?

Tenchi Muyo will always be a work of fiction, either it (/rather you) consider itself to be so or not.


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

vagnard said:


> That point is stupid. You are taking every character of fiction as meta creations that are aware that they are fictional worlds. Then this whole debate is fruitless and there isn't nothing omnipotent because they are fictional in first place.
> 
> No. That point only works against you because only in Marvel the writers have direct participation inside the story unlike Tenchi Muyo where the writers and Tenchi are separate entities that doesn't coexist (and can't coexist in the same series)



Yeah I bet Kami-Tenchi could beat the crap out of a writer/editor ...


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## ∅ (Oct 30, 2006)

> The name Omniverse was created for an early-1980's semi-professional comic book fan magazine which explored the ramifications of the DC Comics and Marvel Comics combined Multiverses (see Multiverse (DC Comics), Multiverse (Marvel Comics)). So it isn't official in first place and it's only valid for Marvel and DC universes. You can't use to compare with other series...specially Tenchi Muyo....where the term used is Hyperdimension. (and we know there are dimensions inside other dimensions like Washu laborary or GXP vessels)...so technically there are group of universes who are part of a bigger universe who are part of a group of universes. That's why I said you can't take Marvel's word and spread to every series like the holy word.


Read comic's Marvel have it's own Omniverse. 
DC have nothing to do with it.



> Tenchi is omnipotent because Kajishima says he is omnipotent. Because the Choushin say he is omnipotent.


There were a lot of beings that stated that the wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet was Omnipotent as well... 


> Because he is the result of the Choushin searching an omnipotent being.


Truley lost then?


> Because his power is unrivaled in his series.


Note: In the series.



> Because he stopped the Choushin War and stopped in an instant the Counterractor, the being who was beating the crap out the Choushin, the Goddess who created the Hyperdimension. Because the whole purpose of the series was Tenchi discover his true self. That he was god or part of God. Because there isn't a lame self insert like Jim Starlin and Stan Lee taking the credibility of the series. That's enough?


Again editors have a helluva lot more power than any fictional character ever will, the authority stands for that.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 30, 2006)

Beyonder was repeatedly stated to have limited power ("Half" of his power given away, his power was expressed as "millions" of times greater than something else, etc.), whereas Kami Tenchi has infinite power, so Tenchi wins effortlessly.


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Read again I said that Stan Lee was confirming this:
> 
> 
> And the creator of the Tenchi Muyo series can easiley control how it should end ... Yes ... Even turn Kami Tienchi into a nice roll of toilet-paper.
> The entire Tenchi Muyo concept is like any other a slave to the author/editor.



No. You were stating that as a fact many times. I proved you that a fictional character can't be equal to a writer and now you try to twist my words like I was the one who is saying that a character can beat his creator. 

I say you many times that writers > creations. The difference is that Marvel incorpores the notion of fictional version of their writers like the scan you posted. You called that bullshit "the avatar of the writer" and used that to prove that The Beyonder > All...but that only works in Marvel Universe because only Marvel Introduce fictional writers inside his universe. You will never see Kajishima chating with his characters in TM...because in Tenchi...creators and characters doesn't co-exist.  




Michael Demiurgos said:


> Not really, this haven't even been proved ... So why make thing's up?
> The "fictional real world of he fictional character's" as you call it is a part of Marvel Universe.



Uh?...I'm not making nothing or you are too stupid. Spiderman travel to "our" world many times to talk with Stan Lee or the Fantastic Four as you showed in your scan. Even Beyonder went there. I call it the fictional real world because it isn't our world but is supposed to be for the fictional characters of Marvel Universe. If the concept is too hard to grasp for you I say this: The Beyonder believed he was talking with the real writers when he met them...he didn't say anything like the avatar of the writers or crap like that. But WE KNOW THAT WASN'T THE REAL WRITER BECAUSE THE REAL WRITER IS A BEING MADE OF FLESH AND BONES AND DOESN'T LIVE IN A COMIC.  It's a similar concept of the pre-crisis story Flash #123's "Flash of Two Worlds," Allen is transported to Earth-Two where he meets Jay Garrick, the original Flash in DC Continuity; it is revealed that Jay Garrick's adventures were captured in comic book form on Earth-One. This storyline initiated DC's multiverse and was continued in issues of Flash and in team-ups between the Justice League of America of Earth-One and the Justice Society of America of Earth-Two. 

So...for Flash of Earth-1 Jay Garrick was a comic character. But for us the readers...both of them are comics characters and limited by the real authors. So the fictional writers can't be more powerful than omnipotent characters from other series like Kami Tenchi.  Both of them are just comics characters limited by the true authors. At his best *fictional* Jim Starlin or *fictional* Stan Lee could *TIE* with Kami Tenchi if *one* of  them is considered the absolute omnipotent being of Marvel "Omniverse". If the Beyonder is more powerful than any of them by default they aren't omnipotent because by definition you can't be more powerful than an omnipotent being....you can only have 1 omnipotent being by Multiverse or series or what you want call it. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> ... When did a Marvel character ever stated to be a fictional character?



The very fact that marvel characters meet with their creators..a comic book writer makes some of them self aware (and us) of their fictional status. In Tenchi case these meta encounters doesn't exist...Tenchi is just the absolute being of his series and that's all you need. You can't compare an omnipotent being from one universe and took other from other universe and said: "my omnipotent is more powerful than your omnipotent by +1"




Michael Demiurgos said:


> 1. Neo could die.
> 2. Neo did die.
> 3. I'm not even sure you got the concept of the Matrix.
> Machines grow human's on field's because they needed the energy.
> ...



And you can grasp and analogy. Neo was practically invincible inside the Matrix. But outside the Matrix he was just a regular human. (he showed some power...but not to the extent that he had inside the matrix). 

And Matrix never was a real world just like Marvel was never a real world. You don't understand the analogy. From Neo-pre red pill...that was the real world....but then he learned that everything except his own life is fictional.  

In the case of Marvel characters is the same. In their Universe you could say that they believe to be real until they met the "real fictional universe". This is a meta concept. Characters take concience that they are part of a comic and someone is drawing them. So what was real becomes fake in an instant. 

So even inside the fictional marvel there is a self realization that all is fake. In the case of Tenchi that nexus creation-creator doesn't exist. The author doesn't make self inserts. So the most powerful being INSIDE Tenchi Multiverse is Tenchi itself and the only possibility for him is to be as powerful as the most powerful being of Marvel in his condition of omnipotent....God, The One Above All, the writers, PR Beyonder or whatever you consider the true omnipotent being of Marvel "omniverse". Your whole concept about the author would be only valid if Beyonder truly came to the REAL world and force the REAL author to do something....but inside a comic...a fictional writer isn't more powerful than an omnipotent from other series... both are limited by the true writers at the end. Do you understand what I say???.  Avatars of the authors means shit at the end. All that has some meaning at the end if they are considered the absolute and truly omnipotent being of their series. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> Again ... The editor is the one that decides every move any being in that Multi-verse do.



And your point is?.. The editor isn't a character of Marvel. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Every God in every fictional world is a slave to the creator of the series.
> The creator of the series decides the story ect.
> It doesnt matter if Tenchi is aware of it or not ... Still a slave ...



Then doesn't discuss anymore because all is fake!!!  Don't you understand how ridiculous is your claim?. Of course every character is slave of their creations...but inside they stories they can be considered omnipotents from the point of view of the fictional beings of their universes. So...an "avatar of author" doesn't make that character more "real" than other fictional character from other universe...and doesn't make that character more powerful. Let me ask you a question. Do you consider the "avatars" of the writers (specify one because you can't have more than one omnipotent character...in that case Marvel would have 2 goods...the writer create the "time" and the one who draws the "matter or space") of Marvel Omniverse?. There is an specific writer or any of them serves the purpose?. At the end they share the ultimate power...therefore they aren't omnipotent. On the other hand Tenchi has the absolute power INSIDE his universe. If the fictional writers can be surpassed then by default they aren't omnipotent. There isn't degrees of omnipotence...you are or you aren't. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> Marvel Wrtier = Tenchi Muyo Editor >> Everything in the Tenchi Multi-verse.
> Even Kami Tenchi himself can be turned into a ... *Nice roll of toilet paper*



That means shit because either Marvel Editor or Kajishima are character of Marvel or Tenchi Muyo. Beyonder only has the power of a fictional representation of the writers.... fictional writer =/= real writer...so at his best Beyonder can be only as good as Kami Tenchi...(and only if he surpass all the fictional writers because there can be only one omnipotent being...if he shares the power with some fictional writer he isn't omnipotent)


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## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> I said he represent the power of the writers.
> He is capable of anything the writer is.



No. He isn't capable of anything the writer is. That's your mistake and the whole point of this discussion. He is only capable of what the real writer decides of he is capable. So technically he can do anything inside of Marvel Universe (if he is really superior to any fictional writer in Marvel) just like Kami Tenchi can do anything in his universe because the real writer stated he is omnipotent and the absolute being in his series.  



Michael Demiurgos said:


> However: He does not have the authority of the wrtier.
> Only the wrtier has that.



You are just twisting your own words. Having the power or authority of the writers at the end is exactly the same. If he hasn't the authority of the true writers he can't do anything that the real writers could do....in fact he couldn't remain with the same power after the retcon...that's your proof of "how powerful Beyonder truly is". If Beyonder has the same power of the writers he would be kicking ass until today in the comics. The writers just removed him...therefore writers > beyonder. You are the one who stated that Beyonder = the writers in terms of power. I never said that Tenchi has the power of Kajishima over Tenchi Muyo. I just said he is omnipotent inside the sphere of his series in the way Kajishima wrote him. You are the one who needs to prove that Beyonder > any omnipotent of other series just because he matched a fictional writer. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> And "the creator" you saw illustrated in the F4 series was not the writer, but an avatar of him. But that avatar had the power of the writer's as well, but not the authority, to have any authority at all you need a mind of your own.
> And the writer "thinks" for everyone in his comic.



Wrong. If you don't have the autorithy you don't have the power either. USA has authority over the world because he has power over the world. Autorithy = Power. The avatar of the writer can't have the same power of the writer. Because the writer can kill the avatar if he wants. A fictional character will never have more power than the classical claim of "he is omnipotent or he isn't omnipotent". You can't say more about the character. If the character is omnipotent then he can do everything he wants inside his series. If the character isn't omnipotent he can't do everything. That's the whole concept. You can do more than everything....you can't have infinite + 1. Fictional Stan Lee can't do nothing better than Kami Tenchi in the case that he was omnipotent in Marvel because Kajishima wrote Tenchi to be omnipotent in his universe too. 




Michael Demiurgos said:


> She could, but she don't make an avatar that appears for her.
> She could never talk to the beings in Tenchi Muyo, because they arent real.
> She need to make an avatar of herself to do so.



First. Kajishima is a He. Second. He doesn't need to do an "avatar" like you call it. He doesn't need because that concept is used by conceited writers who likes self inserts like Stan Lee. Kajishima will not do that and he can't do that because the nature of the series...Tenchi Muyo is an ova...the director wouldn't let him waste the little time of each ova in a stupid self insert unlike Stan Lee that can practically messed up with the whole Marvel with all the titles and maganizes they posses. 

Avatars of the authors doesn't exist in Tenchi Muyo. It doesn't exist a being above Tenchi inside of Tenchi's Hyperdimension. He is the omnipotent an absolute being. The end. You can't speculate about an avatar of the writer in Tenchi because it doesn't exist and Kajishima wouldn't create one because he made Tenchi to be the most powerful being of his series...not a stupid copy of himself. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Omnipotent in the series, well, half correct, because it's the editor that control's their power as well as how they should think.



They are omnipotents looked from the point of view of their own series, Sherlock Holmes. Not from the point of view of an outside reader of the real universe. To be called omnipotent is the max thing a being can aspire to be called inside a comic. There isn't a title above of that inside the comic. That's the point. If there is an omnipotent being in some series it doesn't matter how many avatars and stupid powers a writer gives to another series...because he only can tie "fictional omnipotence" if you like the term. You can't be more than everything. 

If someone created an "avatar" of himself and gave one of his fictional characters (aka the Beyonder) equal or less power than him...then that avatar isn't truly omnipotent because it can be surpassed inside the series. Then the writter didn't created a character with his power...he only created a character that resembles him, shares his name and personality...if the avatar had the same power of the writer then the most powerful character of the comic would be the same than and ant to him. That's the contradiction. If the Beyonder surpassed the writer's representation then logically that representation wasn't omnipotent...then by default the Beyonder didn't surpassed an omnipotent being. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> No you missed my point ... The beings that represent the power of the writers are truley omnipotent, the writer cannot give them more power.
> -But of course the writer have the authority to take it away.
> 
> However I question Kami Tenchi, can he be given more power?
> ...



No. Tenchi can't be given more power. Because Kajishima stated that he is omnipotent. That's my point. The representation of a writer isn't more powerful than the omnipotent being of another series. Basically they are the same (in the case the character makes his representation omnipotent inside his universe) because the author gave Tenchi his condition as the omnipotent and ultimate being. Kajishima can't create a character more powerful than Tenchi unless he makes a retcon and makes Tenchi to be not an omnipotent being. So in other words...Kajishima has to change all he has said until now and change the whole concept of the series to make Tenchi not omnipotent. Something that will not happen because the whole core of the series revolves about Tenchi discovering his omnipotence. 

The big difference is that comics makes retcons and continuity means shit 90% of the time. In a ova like Tenchi you will not see stupid things that starts flamewars like this. It's much more simple...Kajishima just say "Tenchi is the omnipotent being of my series...and that he is. The end"


----------



## vagnard (Oct 30, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Yeah I bet Kami-Tenchi could beat the crap out of a writer/editor ...



Are you stupid?. You were the one who said that Beyonder had the power of the writers. Troll

And like Endless Mike said, it was stated numbers for Beyonder's power...so he has limit.

Limit < Infinite. Tenchi wins. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Read comic's Marvel have it's own Omniverse.
> DC have nothing to do with it.



It was created by a fan to give an explanation to the x-overs between the companies and it was never used inside the comics. 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> There were a lot of beings that stated that the wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet was Omnipotent as well...
> Quote:



The difference is this was said by the creator. Do you know more about the series than the creator?. The difference is that marvel have hundreds of creators and some contradict others. Kajishima is the sole creator of his own series. If he says Tenchi is omnipotent then is canon. The end.  

Because he is the result of the Choushin searching an omnipotent being.


Michael Demiurgos said:


> Truley lost then?



Think before answer. The whole purpose of the series was to find an omnipotent being and the Choushin found him at the end: Tenchi. That's the whole reason the Choushin War stopped. It's like saying that the whole purpose of the gamma bomb was give Hulk powers or the whole purpose of Kryptonite was to create a weakness for Superman. The difference is that Marvel doesn't revolve about one man's self discovery of his own omnipotence....Tenchi's main dilemma is about to find his true nature: "Kami Tenchi". 



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Quote:
> Because his power is unrivaled in his series.
> Note: In the series.



Of course. Just like Beyonder can only be compared with Marvel Characters. His power is unrivaled because he is omnipotent. Because the creator say that he is omnipotent. What is so hard to understand?. Or you are just discussing just for the sake of it?. To annoy people? On the other hand Beyonder has limits....he can gave half of his powers...he has limits. ...therefore he isn't omnipotent. What i



Michael Demiurgos said:


> Again editors have a helluva lot more power than any fictional character ever will, the authority stands for that.



And who says that Tenchi has more power than the editors in first place????

I'm comparing Tenchi with people of his own series and people of other series. He is omnipotent because his power is infinite and the creator (Kajishima) said he is omnipotent. Don't bring the writers or the editors to the discussion anymore or i'm really start to think that you are an idiot or delusional, 

 You are the one who says the Beyonder can kick real people's asses. You just believe that the Beyonder lives in the real world and can be compared with real people. Go to Arkham right now. You are out of your mind.


----------



## ∅ (Oct 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Beyonder was repeatedly stated to have limited power ("Half" of his power given away, his power was expressed as "millions" of times greater than something else, etc.), whereas Kami Tenchi has infinite power, so Tenchi wins effortlessly.









And do I need to say that Beyonder took Dazzler's ... Or his own powers back?

I don't know exactly how many times it was stated that Beyonder limited his power, but I would say at least a dozin, however it was *never* stated that he ever used the full exteent of his powers.

---

To explain the other thing I need to explain who Molecule man was.









---

Here comes the post you are refering to.



This is quite odd actually because the Pre-retcon Amalgam Brother's had just all the power in the Multi-verses (DC and Marvel) ... Even though they were omnipotent ...

Anyhow I can easiley tell that that was Beyonder under limitaion's ...
How? -- Because he have done thing's that requires more than infinity times the power of the Multi-verse.




*How can you create something infinity times the power you possess?*



The millions of times all the power in the Multi-verses combind is just him limiting himself. -- As allways.

Like here:


----------



## Rice Ball (Oct 31, 2006)

Those scans are great but don't really prove your point.
They do backup the beyonders limitations tho, if he can give 'half' his power, that shows he does have a limit when Kami Tenchi wouldn't


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## ∅ (Oct 31, 2006)

Vagnard ... I am going to be honest and say that I don't have time to read you post's, just have 25 minutes before leaving.

Anyhow I think you missunderstand me.

If Kami Tenchi can do anything than he's omnipotent ...
Because the editor can not make him do ?more? than ?anything? ...

Just like Beyonder he could literally do anything ...

But they don't have the authority of the writer ... They are still omnipotent though (because the author/editor can not make the more powerful.

The author/editor will allways be above the series, in authority, not necesserely in power. That's why they can remove any being's power, no matter what have been proved.

I agree that Kami Tenchi is equal to Pre-retcon Beyonder - But only if he's truley omnipotent. In other words there's should be nothing Tenchi cannot do.

Beyonder have done more on a panel than Kami Tenchi and L-sama have.
But that doesnt  mean it proves anything.
Even though it took time for L-sama to create four universes and Beyonder created infinity, infinity, infinity times that. Even done greater things while limmited ...  just being an @$$.
But seriously I see them as equal.


TOAA (Avatar of the wrtier: Jack Kirby) = Beyonder (Avatar of the writer: Jim Shooter) = Kami Tenchi = L-sama.

I would like to explain more but time's short.
See ya in three days.


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## ∅ (Oct 31, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Those scans are great but don't really prove your point.
> They do backup the beyonders limitations tho, if he can give 'half' his power, that shows he does have a limit when Kami Tenchi wouldn't



Any omnipotent being can do anything, even give away ?half? of their power's.
But read the last scan ... See you in a hurry ... Explain later.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 31, 2006)

Yet the actual scan only shows it leaving the galaxy.... I don't see it saying "multiverse" anywhere.




> *How can you create something infinity times the power you possess?*



That would be a good point.... if the scan said anything close to what you're claiming.

All it says is that the universe the Beyonder came from (or was) was larger than the 616-verse. The ocean is not infinitely larger than a drop of water, simply much larger.


The scan says no such thing.


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## ez (Oct 31, 2006)

there is nothing that represents the power of the writer. You know why? the writer can change his/her mind about the character having such a power. If you look at tenchi as a narrative, he's a god and the writer is just telling the story and not actively taking a part in it.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 31, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Any omnipotent being can do anything, even give away ?half? of their power's.
> But read the last scan ... See you in a hurry ... Explain later.



Well thats my point, your scans don't show an Omnipotent power (Any of them)

An omnipotent being would have infinate power right? If they gave away half there power that would mean they have an 'ammount' of power instead of infinate.

This act alone should prove beyonder wasn't every truely omnipotent, just the closest thing we have seen in the MU to it.


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## ∅ (Nov 3, 2006)

> Yet the actual scan only shows it leaving the galaxy.... I don't see it saying "multiverse" anywhere.


No ... If you actually read you would notice this sentence :
??



> That would be a good point.... if the scan said anything close to what you're claiming.
> 
> All it says is that the universe the Beyonder came from (or was) was larger than the 616-verse. The ocean is not infinitely larger than a drop of water, simply much larger.


Wrong scan ... But as you probobly know, the idea is supsoe to mean infinity.
A drop in the ocean ~ an infinity fraction.
You rarely use the term: A drop in the ocean, when you refere to the number: an 22 quintillion:th piece.



> The scan says no such thing.


Actually it does, but maybe you need the whole scan:


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## ∅ (Nov 3, 2006)

ezxx said:


> there is nothing that represents the power of the writer. You know why? the writer can change his/her mind about the character having such a power. If you look at tenchi as a narrative, he's a god and the writer is just telling the story and not actively taking a part in it.



Yeah, but as long as he writer lets him possess that kind of power he does.
And for the series: Secreet Wars and Secret Wars II he did.


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## ∅ (Nov 3, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Well thats my point, your scans don't show an Omnipotent power (Any of them)
> 
> An omnipotent being would have infinate power right? If they gave away half there power that would mean they have an 'ammount' of power instead of infinate.
> 
> This act alone should prove beyonder wasn't every truely omnipotent, just the closest thing we have seen in the MU to it.



Well actually she didn't have that kind of power.

Beyonder actually "took" the power back. - Without her allowence.
Which ultimatelly killed her.


It's the same when Beyonder's Doom (yes he created that Doom) - 




But the point was:
Beyonder had absolute control over the past, future and present.




And ultimatelly he could have caused the entire time-stream to colpase all together ... The meaning of this ...
There would be no "dawn of times" as well as the "end of times"


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## Rice Ball (Nov 3, 2006)

*You need to learn not to double post.*
Your scans don't prove or backup your points tho. Your not really answering my questions


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## ∅ (Nov 3, 2006)

> You need to learn not to double post.


I quote the reply's ... And since you have so many questions ... It becomes a lot of post's.  


> Your scans don't prove or backup your points tho. Your not really answering my questions


Be a little more specific, tell me what you want to know, and if you're not sure: what the scan's means ...

As stated: 

Every reality and everyone in them what was Beyonder wanted it to be ... He was as powerful he wanted to be ... And as proven earlier, Beyonder could just get hurt if he allowed it.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 3, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> No ... If you actually read you would notice this sentence :
> ?



Uh - huh, and that's contradicted by the fact that it only shows it leaving the galaxy, no further.



> Wrong scan ... But as you probobly know, the idea is supsoe to mean infinity.
> A drop in the ocean ~ an infinity fraction.
> You rarely use the term: A drop in the ocean, when you refere to the number: an 22 quintillion:th piece.



So, in other words, you're just making up your own definition with no supporting evidence.



> Actually it does, but maybe you need the whole scan:



Uh - huh. And where does it say that he created a multiverse of infinite universes each infinitely larger than 616?


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## ∅ (Nov 3, 2006)

> Uh - huh, and that's contradicted by the fact that it only shows it leaving the galaxy, no further.


But it says the end's of infinity ...



> So, in other words, you're just making up your own definition with no supporting evidence.



No ... I added the wrong scan ...



> Uh - huh. And where does it say that he created a multiverse of infinite universes each infinitely larger than 616?


The thing Beyonder did with the Marvel Multi-verse was pretty much what the Presence did to the DC Multi-verse, infinity crisis.
Exept for keeping it a Multi-verse ...


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 3, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> But it says the end's of infinity ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

> Hyperbole. It only shows it leaving the galaxy.


Showing us leaving the galaxy ... and says that it reaches the ends of infinity, you can't see the "head" of the blast.



> Saying 'a drop in the ocean' means 'infinitely smaller' is a completely unsupported assertion.



Yeah he is the sum of a realm that is 22 Quintillions (aproximate: a drop in the ocean) bigger than the Multi-verse.

He is just millions of times all the powers of the Multi-verse combinided

ect.

Yet he created universes that each was infinity times bigger than the Marvel Multi-verse.





> Proof?


Insteed of just keep on demanding these grab "your" (You claimed that you had read them) SWII magazines and re-read.

And you will noteice that Beyonder did things that he said he couldent do.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Beyonder's imagination was reality ...

Reality isnt even real to me ...



The only thing that can damage Beyonder is himself, his imagination ... His very own powers.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Showing us leaving the galaxy ... and says that it reaches the ends of infinity, you can't see the "head" of the blast.



And you automatically assume "ends of infinity" to mean everywhere across the multiverse, when we have no proof it went any further than what we saw in the panel.



> Yeah he is the sum of a realm that is 22 Quintillions (aproximate: a drop in the ocean) bigger than the Multi-verse.
> 
> He is just millions of times all the powers of the Multi-verse combinided
> 
> ...



Uh - huh. And how does this mean he created universes infinitely larger than the multiverse? I'm not seeing that stated anywhere.



> Insteed of just keep on demanding these grab "your" (You claimed that you had read them) SWII magazines and re-read.
> 
> And you will noteice that Beyonder did things that he said he couldent do.



I'm not doing your work for you. You made a claim, you have to back it up. Stop dodging the question.

Prove that the Beyonder created a multiverse infinitely bigger than the main Marvel multiverse.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> Beyonder's imagination was reality ...
> 
> Reality isnt even real to me ...
> 
> ...



Yet this is disproven when he loses power killing Death, gives half of his power to Dazzler, is challenged by Molecule Man.....


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yet this is disproven when he loses power killing Death, gives half of his power to Dazzler, is challenged by Molecule Man.....


He "lost" so much power that he couldent remake Death ... He even said this.
Yet *he did* recreated Death ...

He said Dazzler and he were equalls ... Yet he took (by force) back the power *effortlessly*, and killed her in the proccess ... However he revivded her later,

Doom stole *all *of Beyonder's powers, yet Beyonder (with no power) defeated Doom with ease ...

I could go on ... But I think you got my point.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

He didn't defeat him with ease, Klaw tricked him psychologically and Doom lost control of the power.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> He didn't defeat him with ease, Klaw tricked him psychologically and Doom lost control of the power.



I was refering to the other point of the time-stream ...


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## Kage no Yume (Nov 4, 2006)

Is there anyone in Marvel with more power than PR Beyonder?

If the answer is yes, he loses.  If the answer is no, he might tie.

Either way, there's no way he's taking down any omnipotent being.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Kage no Yume said:


> Is there anyone in Marvel with more power than PR Beyonder?
> 
> If the answer is yes, he loses.  If the answer is no, he might tie.
> 
> Either way, there's no way he's taking down any omnipotent being.



In the 80 Beyonder was more powerful than anyone in Marvel ...

After the retcon ... (Post retcon) Beyonder he was slight above Eternity.
As one of the true Beyonders aKa Infinities


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

No, he's still below TOAA.

Your 'power of the writers' excuse won't fly.

According to your logic, if I wrote a story, and put myself in the story, and had the main character beat me up, I would have created the most powerful character ever in fiction, because he was stronger than the writer.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> No, he's still below TOAA.
> 
> Your 'power of the writers' excuse won't fly.
> 
> According to your logic, if I wrote a story, and put myself in the story, and had the main character beat me up, I would have created the most powerful character ever in fiction, because he was stronger than the writer.



If you put yourself in a story ... Or more like an avatar of yourself ... Because you can't literally be in the comics ... Just like Jack Kirby did make a avatar of himself.

But you also do decide the power of that avatar.

And also over the character that beats him.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Exactly. So that means that 'the writers' as shown in that FF issue were not the real writers, just characters based on them.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Exactly. So that means that 'the writers' as shown in that FF issue were not the real writers, just characters based on them.



Exactly, but that avatar was "the creator".


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## Rice Ball (Nov 4, 2006)

Why not go back to the 'Agree to disagree' 
Its not really going anywhere is it.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Why not go back to the 'Agree to disagree'
> Its not really going anywhere is it.



Oh well ...

But one thing I must add: 
He wasent Omnisient -- Why?
Because he didn't knew desire, it was nothing he could not do. No more power to claim.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

If he was really omnipotent, he could have understood desire and everything else just by willing to understand it.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> If he was really omnipotent, he could have understood desire and everything else just by willing to understand it.


In the end he did understand desire ... And everything else ...
And he even understood why he didn't understand desire in the first place.

But as stated:
He was supose to have no connections to Marvel Multi-verse in the first place. - Therefore he didn't understand desire and many things else.
A God from another Omniverse.
And somehow he was greater than the one in Marvel.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Yet he failed at many things. If he was omnipotent he could have just done those things easily.

If he was omnipotent he would have foreseen his own demise and prevented it.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yet he failed at many things. If he was omnipotent he could have just done those things easily.
> 
> If he was omnipotent he would have foreseen his own demise and prevented it.


What things did he actually fail?

Well ... .

Guess he wasent that selfregious.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Then obviously he was just wrong about that, since he clearly succumbed.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Then obviously he was just wrong about that, since he clearly succumbed.



Omnipotent beings can do whatever they want - even play along.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Yes, you've shown me that before. However, the fact is he was surprised by things happening, which means he didn't have knowledge of the future.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes, you've shown me that before. However, the fact is he was surprised by things happening, which means he didn't have knowledge of the future.


 ... Or did he act like he didn't know? - J/K

The future changed because of Beyonder ... His mind changed and so did the future ...


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

If he was really omnipotent, he would only have to act once, and everything from then on would be perfectly as he planned it.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> If he was really omnipotent, he would only have to act once, and everything from then on would be perfectly as he planned it.



But he wasent allways omnisient (in the begining) ... Therefore he changed his mind, and therefoer the future.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Which proves that he wasn't omnipotent.

Not to mention his power was described in finite terms.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Which proves that he wasn't omnipotent.


What?

He later obtained omnisience.

He was the one who discovered the Micro-verse.
The theory that every proton is a star, evrey electron is a planet, every Molecule a galaxy ect.

And he was the one that unmaked it. - Removed it from ever being.
(Because the theory was dissproved in real world when the series still was printing)



> Not to mention his power was described in finite terms.


Yeah like:
Beyonder: If I do this I won't be able to undo it (Killing Death)
Who remade Death - Beyonder ...

Millions of times all the power in the Multi-verse combinded
The Multi-verse is a drop in the ocean (a 22 quintillionth piece)
Beyonder created universes *infinity* times bigger than the Multi-verse.

So is he millions of times, 22 quintillions of times or infinity?


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

"A drop in the ocean" is just an expression that denotes a small part compared to a large part. It doesn't mean any specific number or infinity. He clearly struggled with things, if he was really omnipotent he could have just wished for any knowledge he wanted and then obtained it, without having to bother with that whole "teleport a bunch of guys to space and make them fight it out" thing.


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## ∅ (Nov 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> "A drop in the ocean" is just an expression that denotes a small part compared to a large part. It doesn't mean any specific number or infinity. He clearly struggled with things, if he was really omnipotent he could have just wished for any knowledge he wanted and then obtained it, without having to bother with that whole "teleport a bunch of guys to space and make them fight it out" thing.



He had a hobby so ... ?

It's like putting Kami Tenchi in the Marvel Universe.

He wouldent know everything if anything there.

He later obtained Omniseince though ...


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## Endless Mike (Nov 4, 2006)

Omniscience is a necessary corollary of omnipotence.

Surely you recognize that quote?


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## ∅ (Nov 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Omniscience is a necessary corollary of omnipotence.
> 
> Surely you recognize that quote?


Sure I do ... Dr. Doom said it.
But what he ment was ... You cannot use your power to their fullest potential if you're not omniscient.
Beyonder could only do what he could think of ... But he later made himself omnisceint ...
And if you see it that way: Beyonder got omnipotent first when he made himself omnisceint.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 5, 2006)

No, what it means is that if you're omnipotent, you must be omniscient as well.


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## ∅ (Nov 6, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> No, what it means is that if you're omnipotent, you must be omniscient as well.



So why did Doom mention it? -- He wasent truley omnipotent because he didn't have the omnisience?
That's why Beyonder could defeat him ... Beyonder were at that time omnisient.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 6, 2006)

No, Doom said it because after he got his new powers, he suddenly got a whole lot of new knowledge as well and that is how he explained it.


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## superbatman86 (Nov 6, 2006)

Michael Demiurgos said:


> So why did Doom mention it? -- He wasent truley omnipotent because he didn't have the omnisience?
> That's why Beyonder could defeat him ... Beyonder were at that time omnisient.


He said that because to a mortal Galactus senses would seem omnisient.And no the Beyonder has never been omnisient.To the contrary he been shown to be not that bright.He constantly acts without thinking of the reprocussions of his actions and Molecule Man is normaly there to show him the error of his ways and to clean up after him.


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## ∅ (Nov 6, 2006)

superbatman86 said:


> He said that because to a mortal Galactus senses would seem omnisient.And no the Beyonder has never been omnisient.To the contrary he been shown to be not that bright.He constantly acts without thinking of the reprocussions of his actions and Molecule Man is normaly there to show him the error of his ways and to clean up after him.


Yes ... Beyonder because omnisient in SWIII before he was retconned ...

But when you think about it ... Beyonder said that he was everything in his realm ... *There he knew everything* ... It was only when he entered the Marvel Multi-verse world he became ... "finite".

But as we know Beyonder's realm was infinity times bigger and contained infinity times more energy than the Mavel Multi-verse.

And as we all know "the creator" is God over the 

But Beyonder was God in his realm.

Multi-verse - "infinity universes"
Omni-verse - "infinity Multi-verses"
Beyond-realm - "infinity Multi-verses"


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## ∅ (Nov 6, 2006)

But of course ... Can you be certain that L-sama and Kami Tenchi are omnipotent?

Like I said ... (Pre-retcon) Beyonder have done a lot more thing's on a panel ...

And even Darkseid can claim that he's omnipotent ...


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