# Sora (KH ) enters Dragon Ball



## tonpa (Jul 24, 2014)

He starts from the beginning of dragon ball up to till the  end of z. Fights each character gauntlet style and is healed after each battle. How far does he get? 

Scenario 1. Speed Equalize 
2. No restrictions.


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## trance (Jul 24, 2014)

To my knowledge, he clears part I Dragonball and the Saiyan Saga quite easily since he's large planet level. However, I'm not sure how he fares against Freeza or SSJ Goku.


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## NightmareCinema (Jul 24, 2014)

He gets past Frieza. He may get past the Cell Saga now, too.
I don't see him clearing the Buu Saga.
He no doubt gets chopsticked to death by Beerus or karate chopped by Whis.
That's for scenario 2, by the way.


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## Fenrir (Jul 24, 2014)

I can see him getting past Cell Saga

But once you reach Buu Saga they start hitting small star level iirc, so he stops there.


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## LoveLessNHK (Jul 24, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> To my knowledge, he clears part I Dragonball and the Saiyan Saga quite easily since he's* large planet level*. However, I'm not sure how he fares against Freeza or SSJ Goku.



I'm not doubting you, I recall hearing Sora was strong, I just never heard why. What feat (either direct or through power scaling) gives him large planet level? Does the large planet level go for his DC AND his durability?


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## Fenrir (Jul 24, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> I'm not doubting you, I recall hearing Sora was strong, I just never heard why. What feat (either direct or through power scaling) gives him large planet level? Does the large planet level go for his DC AND his durability?


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## Brightsteel (Jul 24, 2014)

I'm wondering does Whis get his reactions scaled to the flight speed of his staff?


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

Brightsteel said:


> I'm wondering does Whis get his reactions scaled to the flight speed of his staff?


He has 1/10^6 of it or something by these lines.
Which is still ftl+-mftl


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 24, 2014)

Demon King Piccolo was like the strongest fighter in Dragon ball, right? His beat feats, if my mind still serves me right was razing an entire city by concocting massive amounts of energy on his hand which he then waved his hand filled with his own energy at the Town/City.

Sora's best feats are...?

As for whether he can beat DBZ chars... i dunno, depends on his feats. damn gotta start reading more mangas/fictional stories video games and what have you not.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

AlligatorBalls said:


> Demon King Piccolo was like the strongest fight in Dragon ball, right? His beat feats, if my mind still serves me right was razing an entire city by concocting massive amounts of energy on his hand which he then waved his hand filled with his own energy at the Town/City.
> 
> Sora's best feats are...?


Majunior razing an island >> his old father but yeah.
This is pretty much dragonball manga which doesn't have a "z" on it,though.
Large planet+ with time stop stacking iirc and ftl by scalling (latter from stitch hyperdrive) 
He stops at buu saga in a guantlet.


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## NightmareCinema (Jul 24, 2014)

1/10,000 of it, Iwanderpu.
Not 1/1,000,000.

As for whether Super Saiyan God Goku, Beerus, and Whis gets the FTL scaling, I don't recall the verdict on that. Regardless, Sora can't hurt them while they can just easily nuke the entire solar system to take Sora out.

But yeah. Much like Omega~13 and I said, Sora stops at the Buu Saga.


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 24, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Majunior razing an island >> his old father but yeah.
> This is pretty much dragonball manga which doesn't have a "z" on it,though.
> Large planet+ with time stop stacking iirc and ftl by scalling (latter from stitch hyperdrive)
> He stops at buu saga in a guantlet.



Where did Majunior destroy an island? hmm Interesting, entertain me with your great and in-depth knowledge on Dragon ball by bringing a scan of thereof, Iwandesu!

Yeah, I know. I was just referring to the "Dragon Ball"  series, a story independent from the DBZ series, albeit the story line connects with its successor  to continue the already started story even further beyond stopping point of DB. I was trying to see if this guy can take Piccolo on who, as mentioned, was able to destroy a city. 

Oh, then never mind. Why exactly did the OP consider making sora journey through Dragon ball when the best destructive feat from the strongest characters of that series, Dragon ball, is capped at destroying a city, or apparently, destroying an island like you said it which is far below Sora's feats of destroying a planet (I'll take your word for it seeing how you're one of the best debaters acknowledged among your peers on this site)? This is akin to pitting a lion against several hens and roosters. 

But still, now that I know he's planet level, there should be no way any Dragon ball characters would beat him.

As for Dragon ball Z? There are probably a few fighters who can beat him.


Do most of Sora's feats function on the basis of Haxxed type abilities?


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> 1/10,000 of it, Iwanderpu.
> Not 1/1,000,000.
> 
> As for whether Super Saiyan God Goku, Beerus, and Whis gets the FTL scaling, I don't recall the verdict on that. Regardless, Sora can't hurt them while they can just easily nuke the entire solar system to take Sora out.
> ...


Well thanks.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

AlligatorBalls said:


> Where did Majunior destroy an island? hmm Interesting, entertain me with your great and in-depth knowledge on Dragon ball by bringing a scan of thereof, Iwandesu!
> 
> Yeah, I know. I was just referring to the "Dragon Ball"  series, a story independent from the DBZ series, albeit the story line connects with its successor  to continue the already started story even further beyond stopping point of DB. I was trying to see if this guy can take Piccolo on who, as mentioned, was able to destroy a city.
> 
> ...


Lel
I know quite well about dbz...
This low tier mockery makes me wanna puke,though (Sorry but is too much)
Piccolo never destroyed an island.
He kinda razed it after using his Maou super explosive wave.
The same which goku tanked and you can feasibly find on the last few issues of their fight (will post later)


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## BigIsaac (Jul 24, 2014)

Off the top of my head,  is Piccolo Jr.'s biggest feat - destroying a mountain range. 
Also there's  - him devastating almost an entire island with one attack. Not sure that counts as "destroying"

And are we no longer counting that whole  thing?


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 24, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Off the top of my head,  is Piccolo Jr.'s biggest feat - destroying a mountain range.
> Also there's  - him devastating almost an entire island with one attack. Not sure that counts as "destroying"
> 
> And are we no longer counting that whole  thing?



I am not sure, apparently it was omitted from Roshi's capabilities as an outlier but I don't seem to have a problem with it to be honest, but the most logical approach to said feat is to rule it out as an inconsistency because people with high power level than the Roshi, with a power level of 230-320, were unable to blow the moon or something like that. It kind of distorts the power level system the author had going. 



iwandesu said:


> Lel
> I know quite well about dbz...
> This low tier mockery makes me wanna puke,though (Sorry but is too much)
> Piccolo never destroyed an island.
> ...



You do.

Fight against the oppression, Iwandesu!!!

you said he did tho?

post it now....


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Off the top of my head,  is Piccolo Jr.'s biggest feat - destroying a mountain range.
> Also there's  - him devastating almost an entire island with one attack. Not sure that counts as "destroying"
> 
> And are we no longer counting that whole  thing?


Just an average mountain busting is >= city level.
This one not only was a pretty violent one as you clearly see the afterwards Earthquake sunking the place a meter or so on the ground.
I'm pretty sure the calculated feat is from the manga,  though


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

AlligatorBalls said:


> I am not sure, apparently it was omitted from Roshi's capabilities as an outlier but I don't seem to have a problem with it to be honest, but the most logical approach to said feat is to rule it out as an inconsistency because people with high power level than the Roshi, with a power level of 230-320, were unable to blow the moon or something like that. It kind of distorts the power level system the author had going.
> You do.
> Fight against the oppression, Iwandesu!!!
> you said he did tho?
> post it now....


Kay, i guess.

Tien makes a big kikoho hole.

Demon wave explodes

Tsunami, Earthquake

Kikoho hole is way smaller.


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 24, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Kay, i guess.
> 
> Tien makes a big kikoho hole.
> 
> ...



Most of those scans aren't working.


But I'll take your word for it.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

AlligatorBalls said:


> Most of those scans aren't working.
> 
> 
> But I'll take your word for it.



Fixed they are.


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 24, 2014)

page not found.......................................


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## BigIsaac (Jul 24, 2014)

The latter two links aren't working for me, still.
Just flipping forward from the first two links works just fine, though.

Also Roshi was already able to blow up a mountain at the beginning of DB, when he was asked to put out the fire on the ox king's castle.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 24, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> The latter two links aren't working for me, still.
> Just flipping forward from the first two links works just fine, though.
> 
> Also Roshi was already able to blow up a mountain at the beginning of DB, when he was asked to put out the fire on the ox king's castle.


Mount Fry was small city level.
Anyway, the island even sunk on the video you posted
I'm pretty sure is already fixed but you can see as you skip the pages that it razed.


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## Tacocat (Jul 24, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> I can see him getting past Cell Saga
> 
> But once you reach Buu Saga they start hitting small star level iirc, so he stops there.



"Hoenn's Classiest" 



Anyway, I don't see why the fuck pre-skip Dragon Ball feats are being discussed.

And no, _Dragon Ball_ also refers to Saiyan Saga and on. That's the title of the manga.


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## ensoriki (Jul 25, 2014)

Sora planet level?
Bitch please.


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## Regicide (Jul 25, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Sora planet level?
> Bitch please.


Could fight Twilight Xemnas, who had absorbed Kingdom Hearts' power, with help.

Same Kingdom Hearts that restores destroyed worlds, which have been stated to be actual planets.


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## Fenrir (Jul 25, 2014)

Cooly said:


> "Hoenn's Classiest"


Forever and always


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 25, 2014)

Cooly said:


> "Hoenn's Classiest"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



THEY'RE being discussed because people want to, but I digress. I also said that Dragon ball, which was referring to the story line where kid goku was the main character, couldn't do shit here.


Dragon ball does not refer to all the way up until Saiyan saga. You're mistaking that for Dragon Ball z. The story Dragon Ball is different than Dragon Ball Z, big difference as they consist a set of 123 episodes; from episode 1 till episode 123. 

Dragon ball z episodes come after episode 123, not later.


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## Regicide (Jul 25, 2014)

Actually, it does.

There is no "Z" when speaking about the manga, the name remained Dragon Ball. There's simply part one and part two.


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 25, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Actually, it does.
> 
> There is no "Z" when speaking about the manga, the name remained Dragon Ball. There's simply part one and part two.



It remained Dragon ball, you're saying? So The Manga, the cannon, stuck with Dragon ball through and through but the anime added the "Z" for the sequel of the original Dragon ball? Is this what you're saying? Because it sure as hell does look like you're saying this.


Not sure what to believe, but as I said, I am referring to Dragon ball, the version where Kid goku is the main character as Dragon ball, and Z as the SEQUEL of the last episode of DB. Pretty simple in my eyes.


Simplifies a lot, but I'll stay with my definition because differentiating between the two is easy, and if it's easy, why argue about it?!

But in any case, thanks for the info.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Could fight Twilight Xemnas, who had absorbed Kingdom Hearts' power, with help.



*WITH HELP* 



> Same Kingdom Hearts that restores destroyed worlds, which have been stated to be actual planets.



restoring planets ≠ destroying them.


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## NightmareCinema (Jul 25, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> WITH HELP
> 
> 
> 
> *restoring planets ≠ destroying them.*



It takes energy to create as well as to destroy.

So restoring/re-creating planets can translate well to destructive capacity.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> It takes energy to create as well as to destroy.
> 
> So restoring/re-creating planets can translate well to destructive capacity.



that said it could just be the propeties of the kingdom hearts that allows it to restore worlds and not power so unless they,ve been shown to be used in that way there,s no way of telling if they have the capacity to destroy planets. 

also scaling sora off of that and making him planet busting still might not work even if twilight xemnas has both planet busting firepower and durability because sora having help from his friends and whittling down the enemies health instead of one shotting him is not the same thing as matching his strength and having the ability to reproduce his feats.


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## Regicide (Jul 25, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> restoring planets ≠ destroying them.


The reason that the worlds had to be restored to begin with was because they couldn't maintain form without their hearts and shit.

Basically, the hearts of worlds are equated to the gravitational binding energy of planets. Being able to bring back that GBE means that Kingdom Hearts can play around with that level of energy.


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## Tacocat (Jul 25, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> that said it could just be the propeties of the kingdom hearts that allows it to restore worlds and not power so unless they,ve been shown to be used in that way there,s no way of telling if they have the capacity to destroy planets.
> 
> also scaling sora off of that and making him planet busting still might not work even if twilight xemnas has both planet busting firepower and durability because sora having help from his friends and whittling down the enemies health instead of one shotting him is not the same thing as matching his strength and having the ability to reproduce his feats.


Except there's heaps of fucking lore saying less powerful entities than Kingdom Hearts are liable to destroy all worlds. (Plus, Kingdom Hearts still exerted the energy to restore those worlds, and we know it can release this energy in other ways, i.e. powering up Xemnas or eradicating Ansem, so the function is irrelevant.) Also, it's even stated that Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless) destroyed Radiant Garden, which explains why the entire thing except the castle was missing in KH1.

In any case, we see thousands of planets being launched across the sky in KH1, so the point is moot. And Zeus TK'd hundreds of planets, so the point is even more moot.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

Cooly said:


> Except there's heaps of fucking lore saying less powerful entities than Kingdom Hearts are liable to destroy all worlds. (Plus, Kingdom Hearts still exerted the energy to restore those worlds, and we know it can release this energy in other ways, i.e. powering up Xemnas or eradicating Ansem, so the function is irrelevant.) Also, it's even stated that Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless) destroyed Radiant Garden, which explains why the entire thing except the castle was missing in KH1.
> 
> In any case, we see thousands of planets being launched across the sky in KH1, so the point is moot. And Zeus TK'd hundreds of planets, so the point is even more moot.



so are you saying we should scale zeus to sora now? i,m fine with there being planet level beings in kingdom hearts but I just don,t think sora is one of them. sora doesn,t even use TK like zeus and all of these powerful entities (I assume you mean bosses) that i,ll give you may be planet level, haven,t shown planet level attacks while fighting sora and sora beats each of them by gradually whittling down their hp down instead of producing attacks equal to their,s or one shotting them. he usually does this with help as well.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

Regicide said:


> The reason that the worlds had to be restored to begin with was because they couldn't maintain form without their hearts and shit.
> 
> Basically, the hearts of worlds are equated to the gravitational binding energy of planets. Being able to bring back that GBE means that Kingdom Hearts can play around with that level of energy.



alright.


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## NightmareCinema (Jul 25, 2014)

>Sora beat Hades
>Hades is comparable to Zeus

Yeah, you were saying?


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Sora beat Hades
> >Hades is comparable to Zeus
> 
> Yeah, you were saying?



1. does sora use TK?
2. does hades use TK on sora to show he can survive zeus level TK attacks?
3. is TK the same as strength or power?


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## Regicide (Jul 25, 2014)

Whether or not Sora or anyone uses TK or not is kind of irrelevant, that's just one method of outputting a character's given destructive power.

There's nothing suggesting that comparable or stronger characters can't output similar levels of energy through other means, like their spells or melee strikes.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Whether or not Sora or anyone uses TK or not is kind of irrelevant, that's just one method of outputting a character's given destructive power.
> 
> There's nothing suggesting that comparable or stronger characters can't output similar levels of energy through other means, like their spells or melee strikes.



i,m not downplaying the verse or anything guys so why are you guys getting so defensive about sora being planet level of all things? 

anyway the burden of proof is on you, you have to prove that comparable or stronger characters can output similar energy through other means. has zeus shown the same level of power with something other than his TK? how do we know he or other characters can produce that same level of power without using TK or that Zeus does,t just have better TK than the rest of his verse. you can,t really easily translate one feat to an entire verse if it isn,t even the same kind of attack or power most of the verse uses.


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## Tacocat (Jul 25, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> so are you saying we should scale zeus to sora now? i,m fine with there being planet level beings in kingdom hearts but I just don,t think sora is one of them. sora doesn,t even use TK like zeus and all of these powerful entities (I assume you mean bosses) that i,ll give you may be planet level, haven,t shown planet level attacks while fighting sora and sora beats each of them by gradually whittling down their hp down instead of producing attacks equal to their,s or one shotting them. he usually does this with help as well.


Er, yeah, Sora should most certainly be scaled from Zeus. And completely ignoring the fact that Sora _does_, in fact, have telekinetic capabilities, energy can be used in more ways than one. From there it's basic powerscaling.



xenos5 said:


> i,m not downplaying the verse or anything guys so why are you guys getting so defensive about sora being planet level of all things?


No one's getting defensive; we're explaining to you why you're wrong.



> anyway the burden of proof is on you, you have to prove that comparable or stronger characters can output similar energy through other means. has zeus shown the same level of power with something other than his TK? how do we know he or other characters can produce that same level of power without using TK


Um...do you know anything at all about Greco-Roman mythology? Zeus is the dude who flings lightning bolts at his most powerful enemies, rather than...you know, TKing them. To assert that his offensive attacks would require less energy than casual shit he does for shits and giggles is straight asinine.



> or that Zeus does,t just have better TK than the rest of his verse.


Better TK than the being who is stated to be unequivocally the most powerful in the verse, and whose telekinesis is one of his trademarks? Well that's a resounding "no".

That aside, refer to the paragraph about Zeus's telekinesis being casual-ass energy expenditure compared to his actual attacks.



> you can,t really easily translate one feat to an entire verse if it isn,t even the same kind of attack or power most of the verse uses.


Uh, yeah, you can. That's a thing we call powerscaling.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

> Er, yeah, Sora should most certainly be scaled from Zeus. And completely ignoring the fact that Sora _does_, in fact, have telekinetic capabilities, energy can be used in more ways than one. From there it's basic power scaling.[QUOTE/]
> 
> alright. I didn,t know sora had TK. I asked about that in my earlier post. also what feats has sora shown for his TK? if it already has feats and is weaker or stronger than Zeus,s than can you provide me a link showing this?
> 
> ...


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## BigIsaac (Jul 25, 2014)

OP, do you even quote?


So how does all of this translate to the topic? How far into DBZ does Sora get again?
Is Buu saga still the highest bid?


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## NightmareCinema (Jul 25, 2014)

Yes, Buu Saga is still the highest bid.

And if Sora somehow manages to get past the Buu Saga, he gets nuked by either SSG Goku, Beerus, or Whis.


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## BigIsaac (Jul 25, 2014)

There's one thing that tends to bother me with non-combat feats like these. I'm not familiar with the exact mechanics of how this was done in KH, so I'm gonna use a different example: Solaris from Sonic 06

Often in Sonic vs character xyz, I hear this point that Sonic has defeated things that can destroy reality, namely Solaris. 
The problem I see with stuff like this is that such powers tend to be extremely context-sensitive and specific.
For example Solaris has the power to mess around with time and possibly even destroy reality. However, of what use is this power if it is unable to use it in combat? 
In the case of Solaris specifically, all it does in the boss fight is shoot lasers and open portals that throw rocks at you. It isn't using the powers that make it a god against you, so why does it matter that it has those powers in the first place?

You could attempt to powerscale the reality warping to the lasers and rocks based on the assumption that Solaris could stuff the same energy it uses to reality warp into the lasers and portals instead.
However, if a you assume that Solaris can manipulate its power so freely, then why is it limited to using lasers and rocks in the first place? If it can unmake time, then shouldn't it be able to simply unmake the player, too, or at least conjure up some more effective attacks than trowing rocks at things? It should, but it evidentially isn't, meaning that its divine power is completely limited to the time shenanigans.

Not sure if you can apply this to the KH stuff in some way, but oh well.


Quick question about the mechanics of KH with the worlds and whatnot:
Are the stars you would see _in a world_ other worlds themselves? IIRC even in BBS, where the characters are flying through inter-world-ly space, they are always entering and exiting the worlds through some manner of portal, rather than landing on the planet from space.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> There's one thing that tends to bother me with non-combat feats like these. I'm not familiar with the exact mechanics of how this was done in KH, so I'm gonna use a different example: Solaris from Sonic 06
> 
> Often in Sonic vs character xyz, I hear this point that Sonic has defeated things that can destroy reality, namely Solaris.
> The problem I see with stuff like this is that such powers tend to be extremely context-sensitive and specific.
> ...



you make a great point. context is everything. especially since a feat can be considered an outlier if it does,t match other feats already shown in the series. i,m not saying that,s the case with the zeus feat most are mentioning but I don,t think i,ve seen people use any other feats on the same level of it so it,s a possibility.


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## Tacocat (Jul 25, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> i,m not being sensitive. i,m just wanting a respectful debate on both sides. I admit your great at showing evidence and are more experienced than me but I came here for a debate. not an arguement or a fight. i,m being respectful to you and haven,t berated your viewpoint while you,ve said i,m straight out wrong when I was just covering all the bases. i,m not asking for your respect though. just for a neutral discussion where neither side acts like the other side is completely wrong until every point has been gone over.


Being wrong isn't about disrespect. You should probably learn that pretty quickly, or else you're going to have a tough time around here...and anywhere else, really.

You should also probably get used to backhanded, subtle mockery. That is about disrespect, but you should get used to it nonetheless. It's rather abundant here.



> I did bring up new points though (like zeus,s feat possibly not being TK), so I don,t know what your talking about when you say we already covered everything and that i,m just ignoring things you already proved.


That was the only relevant point you brought up that didn't circle back around to stuff that had previously been addressed. Seriously, just process the shit you read before responding for the sake of arguing. You'll save a lot of time and even a little bit of face that way.



> I hope I get to debate with you again sometime. let,s both be professional when that happens though. k?


Professional what? It's an internet forum purposed for debating fan-made battles between fictional characters using fan-made statistical parameters...


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

Cooly said:


> Being wrong isn't about disrespect. You should probably learn that pretty quickly, or else you're going to have a tough time around here...and anywhere else, really.
> 
> You should also probably get used to backhanded, subtle mockery. That is about disrespect, but you should get used to it nonetheless. It's rather abundant here.
> 
> ...



you can,t fault me for having a positive attitude. i,ve seen plenty of users that aren,t as cynical as you say everyone here is (Iwandesu,Fujita, Volt Manta, Jakers etc..). if I really do have to just put up with subtle mockery then that,ll be fine but there really isn,t point in doing that if it can be avoided.


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## Tacocat (Jul 25, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Not sure if you can apply this to the KH stuff in some way, but oh well.


No, these things are rather unrelated. Reality warping is an entirely separate monster from telekinesis.



> Quick question about the mechanics of KH with the worlds and whatnot:
> Are the stars you would see _in a world_ other worlds themselves? IIRC even in BBS, where the characters are flying through inter-world-ly space, they are always entering and exiting the worlds through some manner of portal, rather than landing on the planet from space.


The worlds have their own dimensions. We don't particularly know how much cosmology these dimensions contain, but they exist in larger dimensions and still seem to occupy the same space.

Think of it like a crime scene surrounded by a cul-de-sac. The crime scene, ergo the area inside the tape, is a world. The tape itself is a dimensional barrier. The immediate outside, that being the defined cul-de-sac, would be the lanes between. The entire residential neighborhood, for instance, would then be a realm. The three realms are a bit more conceptual, considering they're full-on universes. Anyway, it's still the same physical space, but they're sectioned off.

It's not a surprise that TAV had to open dimensional portals in BBS; the worlds were cordoned off by dimensional barriers.



xenos5 said:


> you make a great point. context is everything. especially since a feat can be considered an outlier if it does,t match other feats already shown in the series. i,m not saying that,s the case with the zeus feat most are mentioning but I don,t think i,ve seen people use any other feats on the same level of it so it,s a possibility.



No, it's not an outlier. Kingdom Hearts's feat was inspected first, there are plenty of contextually planetary feats, and the lore corroborates it ad nauseum to boot.



xenos5 said:


> you can,t fault me for having a positive attitude. i,ve seen plenty of users that aren,t as cynical as you say everyone here is (Iwandesu,Fujita, Volt Manta, Jakers etc..). if I really do have to just put up with subtle mockery then that,ll be fine but there really isn,t point in doing that if it can be avoided.


Note that I wasn't actually mocking you. No one's faulting you. Seriously, stop taking shit personally 

And Fujita will rip into you if you ever give her reason to  I tend to be more merciful than she.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 25, 2014)

Cooly said:


> *Think of it like a crime scene surrounded by a cul-de-sac. The crime scene, ergo the area inside the tape, is a world. The tape itself is a dimensional barrier. The immediate outside, that being the defined cul-de-sac, would be the lanes between. The entire residential neighborhood, for instance, would then be a realm. The three realms are a bit more conceptual, considering they're full-on universes.* Anyway, it's still the same physical space, but they're sectioned off.
> And Fujita will rip into you if you ever give her reason to  I tend to be more merciful than she.


Dat reference.

Hope you are happy taco , now i wanna see an Angry fujita.


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## Tacocat (Jul 25, 2014)

Never read the Umineko VNs 

And Fujita doesn't get angry when she debates. She'll just illustrate the extent of her opponent's stupidity and move on with her life.


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## xenos5 (Jul 25, 2014)

> Note that I wasn't actually mocking you. No one's faulting you. Seriously, stop taking shit personally
> 
> And Fujita will rip into you if you ever give her reason to  I tend to be more merciful than she.



1. alright
2. thanks for the warning. 

on a side note thanks for introducing me to occams razor. after you mentioned it I looked it up and it,s actually a pretty interesting concept. i,ll try to keep it in mind.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jul 25, 2014)

Cooly said:


> Never read the Umineko VNs
> 
> And Fujita doesn't get angry when she debates. She'll just illustrate the extent of your stupidity and move on with her life.


You should.
That's a damn impressive coincidance,then


----------



## Fujita (Jul 25, 2014)

xenos5 said:


> i,m not being sensitive. i,m just wanting a respectful debate on both sides. I admit your great at showing evidence and are more experienced than me but I came here for a debate. not an arguement or a fight. i,m being respectful to you and haven,t berated your viewpoint while you,ve said i,m straight out wrong when I was just covering all the bases. i,m not asking for your respect though. just for a neutral discussion where neither side acts like the other side is completely wrong until every point has been gone over.



Taco's covered this to some extent, but 

OBD threads tend toward argument. The idea is that if you disagree, you argue until somebody wins. The argument can be level-headed, but nothing in the section culture says it has to be. Asking people to be polite won't get you anywhere. The nice ones like Taco/Cooly will look at you funny and tell you what he just told you. The rest will keep laughing. 



xenos5 said:


> you can,t fault me for having a positive attitude. i,ve seen plenty of users that aren,t as cynical as you say everyone here is (Iwandesu,Fujita, Volt Manta, Jakers etc..). if I really do have to just put up with subtle mockery then that,ll be fine but there really isn,t point in doing that if it can be avoided.



If anything I've only become more and more cynical as I post here 

But really, most everyone is at least accustomed to implied/overt hostility in vs matches, even members who by and large don't engage in it themselves. It's the rare member who'll call for blanket respect in threads.

Funnily enough, though, even the "worst" OBD regulars aren't that cynical if you're making a reasoned point that hasn't been done to death. 



Cooly said:


> And Fujita will rip into you if you ever give her reason to  I tend to be more merciful than she.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jul 26, 2014)

Going to agree with Buu Saga being the absolute furthest he can get though Cell's regeneration will be a bitch.


----------



## BigIsaac (Jul 26, 2014)

IIRC Cell claimed that he "could destroy the entire solar system with [his] energy"
Are we taking this into account or is this dismissed as bluster?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jul 26, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> IIRC Cell claimed that he "could destroy the entire solar system with [his] energy"
> Are we taking this into account or is this dismissed as bluster?


We have many reasons to believe he was either bluffing or lying to himself.
I saw a really accurated and impressive point being made by Mike and IWD on (a joke thread )yesterday...


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 26, 2014)

>Overconfident as fuck Android
>Just got a powerup
>High on his own powerlevel

TOTALLY LEGIT STATEMENT


----------



## TheGloryXros (Jul 26, 2014)

Is speed equal, which is why people are saying Sora stops at Buu Saga?



BigIsaac said:


> IIRC Cell claimed that he "could destroy the entire solar system with [his] energy"
> Are we taking this into account or is this dismissed as bluster?



SIGH...we really bringin THIS hyperbole schtick up again...?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jul 26, 2014)

TheGloryXros said:


> Is speed equal, which is why people are saying Sora stops at Buu Saga?
> SIGH...we really bringin THIS hyperbole schtick up again...?


He wouldn't kill buu even with speed unequal.
The guy laughs to top tier large planet + attacks and can just use a decent AOE attacks with small star yeld.


----------



## TheGloryXros (Jul 26, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> He wouldn't kill buu even with speed unequal.
> The guy laughs to top tier large planet + attacks and can just use a decent AOE attacks with small star yeld.



I thought Sora had some sort of hax on his side IIRC?


----------



## Tacocat (Jul 26, 2014)

Sure, but none of them really allows him to clear the Buu Saga. 

Dimensional BFR? Gotenks and Buu were able to rip holes in the RoSaT by screaming, right? Anyway, that's how shits like Kaguya win matches. 

Time-stop wouldn't help much other than with evasion, considering the damage isn't stacked like in JJBA. Evasion wouldn't be a problem, anyway, because he's much faster over short distances and has planetary teleportation range for AoE.

Sleep would only delay the inevitable.

Transmutation doesn't work so well on select DBZ characters.

Poison wouldn't work on androids.

Can't recall much more off the top of my head.


----------



## Regicide (Jul 26, 2014)

Taco changed his name back. :33


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jul 26, 2014)

Tacocat > Cooly


----------



## PopoTime (Jul 26, 2014)

Tacocat said:


> Sure, but none of them really allows him to clear the Buu Saga.
> 
> Dimensional BFR? Gotenks and Buu were able to rip holes in the RoSaT by screaming, right? Anyway, that's how shits like Kaguya win matches.
> 
> ...



In the kingdom hearts games, damage dealt during Stop gets done after the spell ends as spike damage doesnt it?


----------



## Tacocat (Jul 26, 2014)

I felt it was about that time 



PopoTime said:


> In the kingdom hearts games, damage dealt during Stop gets done after the spell ends as spike damage doesnt it?



Yes. It's still dealt sequentially, though. When energy is stacked during time-stop like Dio Brando's, the energy transfer is cumulative once the stop is relieved. That's not the case for KH's brand of time-stop; it's basically just the same thing as Sora dealing a multitude of blows in quick succession.

Albeit, it's always confused me how energy transfer is rather relative in fiction. We don't generally accept per second values as legitimate DC because the transfer is often too slow for anyone to give a darn. Instead we opt for shit that seems "immediate". But the definition of immediate is relative unless there are special circumstances that make the transfer truly so. But that's a really big can of worms to open...


----------



## Regicide (Jul 26, 2014)

Tacocat said:


> We don't generally accept per second values as legitimate DC because the transfer is often too slow for anyone to give a darn.


We don't? Chaos does.


----------



## BigIsaac (Jul 26, 2014)

By  "cumulative," I assume you mean that if, say, he punched 100 times with force x during a time stop, the damage is deal at the end of the time stop as if it was a single punch with force 100x?


----------



## Tacocat (Jul 26, 2014)

Regicide said:


> We don't? Chaos does.


Not that I know of. There are exceptions, though. If the product is in energy/s but the character who performed the feat released whatever...catalyzed this energy at once, it is accepted. Willy mentioned a few other examples in a thread a while ago, but I forget what they were.



BigIsaac said:


> By  "cumulative," I assume you mean that if, say, he punched 100 times with force x during a time stop, the damage is deal at the end of the time stop as if it was a single punch with force 100x?


That's the notion behind the time-stop calcs, yes.


----------



## DarkSlayerZero (Jul 27, 2014)

Tacocat said:


> Poison wouldn't work on androids.



Why not? I can understand #16 since he's purely machine.


----------



## Tacocat (Jul 27, 2014)

Because we don't know how the poison operates, and the androids aren't completely organic.


----------



## BigIsaac (Jul 27, 2014)

Isn't poison damage a complete waste of time in every SE game that's not X and XIII?
Even if Sora can inflict it on someone, it'd still take hours, if not days, to do significant damage


----------



## Adamant soul (Jul 27, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Isn't poison damage a complete waste of time in every SE game that's not X and XIII?
> Even if Sora can inflict it on someone, it'd still take hours, if not days, to do significant damage



Poison kicked ass in Crisis Core thank you very much.


----------



## Tacocat (Jul 28, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Isn't poison damage a complete waste of time in every SE game that's not X and XIII?
> Even if Sora can inflict it on someone, it'd still take hours, if not days, to do significant damage


Why do you assume that? The characters's health goes down pretty quickly when inflicted.

Yes, this is a game mechanic, but the fact still remains that it's rather potent and fast-acting. Plus, Sora has the means by which to stall plenty.

Still doesn't let him clear the Buu Saga.

Edit: Well, I suppose the Androids wouldn't be the issues  Still don't see him clearing with that shit. Stalling for poison is fucking weak, anyway.


----------



## BigIsaac (Jul 28, 2014)

How potent is poison if you get inflicted with it?
I don't remember it being threatening at all, to be honest. I could be wrong, though.


----------



## tonpa (Jul 31, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> How potent is poison if you get inflicted with it?
> I don't remember it being threatening at all, to be honest. I could be wrong, though.



Poison could kill planet level characters soo pretty damn powerful if you ask me. Also  I completely forgot about this thread. I was away for comicon so please forgive me. Also Dragon Ball is referring  to the entire manga series. He also has confusion, don't know how well that would play in the standing. Only other thing that could give him the edge are his summons which would be Genie and that would be stander equipment for him.


----------



## BigIsaac (Jul 31, 2014)

tonpa said:


> Poison could kill planet level characters soo pretty damn powerful if you ask me. Also  I completely forgot about this thread. I was away for comicon so please forgive me. Also Dragon Ball is referring  to the entire manga series. He also has confusion, don't know how well that would play in the standing. Only other thing that could give him the edge are his summons which would be Genie and that would be stander equipment for him.




I'm talking more about how much damage the poison effect is doing per tick. For example FFX has the strongest poison from what I've seen, dealing somewhere around 1/3 of your max HP with every tick. 
If KH poison is that potent, too, then getting inflicted by it could indeed potentially be a problem for a lot of DBZ characters. If it's the standard weaksauce 2-5% damage you get in most FF games, then I say meh


----------



## TobiSan (Jul 31, 2014)

He would clear the manga, never seen the shows.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jul 31, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> He would clear the manga, never seen the shows.



No he doesn't, star level top tiers and he has no method of putting Buu down at all.


----------



## TobiSan (Jul 31, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> No he doesn't, star level top tiers and he has no method of putting Buu down at all.



If Sora is planet+ then he takes everyone but Buu, I don't remember what happened to Buu.

I don't recall anybody being planetary in the manga. Freeza destroyed Namek by making the core explode faster, but the core was about to explode anyway. There was no evidence that he actually destroyed Planet Vegeta.


----------



## Fenrir (Jul 31, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> If Sora is planet+ then he takes everyone but Buu, I don't remember what happened to Buu.


>Buu
>Goku
>Gohan
>Probably Gotenks



> I don't recall anybody being planetary in the manga. Freeza destroyed Namek by making the core explode faster, but the core was about to explode anyway.


What? Frieza destroyed the core, period. Namek was more or less stable before Frieza did that.



> There was no evidence that he actually destroyed Planet Vegeta.




You were saying?


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jul 31, 2014)

Manga continuity also has SSG Goku, Beerus, and Whis...

So no, Sora's not clearing.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 31, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> If Sora is planet+ then he takes everyone but Buu, I don't remember what happened to Buu.
> 
> I don't recall anybody being planetary in the manga. Freeza destroyed Namek by making the core explode faster, but the core was about to explode anyway. There was no evidence that he actually destroyed Planet Vegeta.



Buu literally vaped earth to the point it gets small star value.
Before that - 
Piccolo started small planet values by vaping the moon
Vegeta stated he'd be able to destroy the earth, which does make sense given a 400 PL Piccolo destroyed the moon, but is dubious.
Frieza caused the core to explode. The planet had not shown any inclination towards explosion until he hit it with his attack.
and Cell, along with several others, stated and thought Goku could blow up the earth with the kamehameha.
there's a lot of planetary instances in the manga.


----------



## tonpa (Jul 31, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> I'm talking more about how much damage the poison effect is doing per tick. For example FFX has the strongest poison from what I've seen, dealing somewhere around 1/3 of your max HP with every tick.
> If KH poison is that potent, too, then getting inflicted by it could indeed potentially be a problem for a lot of DBZ characters. If it's the standard weaksauce 2-5% damage you get in most FF games, then I say meh



yea i am trying to a guide to see how much damage it does. but for now a friendly reminder


----------



## TobiSan (Aug 1, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> >Buu
> >Goku
> >Gohan
> >Probably Gotenks
> ...




Frieza desotryed the core for a planet, not a planet, different things.



Raditz said that Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a comet and Frieza lied through out a manga. Just because he said he destroyed doesn't mean he did. He said that he is the strongest being in the manga several times, doesn't mean he is.

Feats > statements.



AgentAAA said:


> Buu literally vaped earth to the point it gets small star value.
> Before that -
> Piccolo started small planet values by vaping the moon
> Vegeta stated he'd be able to destroy the earth, which does make sense given a 400 PL Piccolo destroyed the moon, but is dubious.
> ...




That is all them saying that, no actual feats. Eve when Vegeta used his max power, he only crushed some chuncks of Earth nothing more.

Piccolo and Roshi destroying the Moon is total PIS, since all them at max power never showed anything that could come even close to threaten the Earth.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

Piccolo detonated the moon at a time in the story when context in the dialogue and plot supported planet busting.

It also just so happens to have been a violent enough detonation to validate Vegeta's boast of nuking Earth when pissed off.

Don't like it?

Tough shit.  This hobby's hardly exact, right and wrong, general standards for evidence and all that fun shit are derived from communal consensus.


----------



## trance (Aug 1, 2014)

> Eve when Vegeta used his max power, he only crushed some chuncks of Earth nothing more.



Yea, because DBZ fighters at this time can't control the AoE output of their energy attacks or anything. They certainly can't do that.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Yea, because DBZ fighters at this time can't control the AoE output of their energy attacks or anything. They certainly can't do that.



Wouldn't even over think it that far

Every series tends to rape conservation of energy

If we're given no reason in story to believe they're holding back, we just write it off and continue with the notion the attack is at or close to full power regardless of collateral

Less headache and fanon theorying up bullshit explanations that may or may not actually be internally consistent with the series in question


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 1, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> Frieza desotryed the core for a planet, not a planet, different things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wait.

Buu destroying earth on panel completely shown... Is a statement?

Sorry but I don't exactly follow your reasoning.


----------



## trance (Aug 1, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wouldn't even over think it that far
> 
> Every series tends to rape conservation of energy
> 
> ...



Well, I was mostly making fun of that point he brought up. 

It's been shown time and time again that they can utilize their attacks in a way that maximizes damage potency while compressing the energy AoE down to more negligible levels. 

I'm just surprised he doesn't know that.


----------



## TobiSan (Aug 1, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Wait.
> 
> Buu destroying earth on panel completely shown... Is a statement?
> 
> Sorry but I don't exactly follow your reasoning.



Did I talk about Buu? I don't follow your comprehension of English language.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 1, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> *Buu literally vaped earth to the point it gets small star value.*
> Before that -
> Piccolo started small planet values by vaping the moon
> Vegeta stated he'd be able to destroy the earth, which does make sense given a 400 PL Piccolo destroyed the moon, but is dubious.
> ...





TobiSan said:


> *That is all them saying that, no actual feats. *Eve when Vegeta used his max power, he only crushed some chuncks of Earth nothing more.
> 
> Piccolo and Roshi destroying the Moon is total PIS, since all them at max power never showed anything that could come even close to threaten the Earth.


If you're going to backpedal, can you go all the way and admit that DBZ characters can blow up planets please?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

Huh

The new/old fucker goes out of his way to mildy antagonize the one fucker that was actually being somewhat polite in his rebuttal/post


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 1, 2014)

It always seems to happen that way. 

Just look at the responses Fujita and Tacocat get.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

Pretty sure I've beaten Tacocat down with one of my own rebuttals before, yeah.

Though, too be fair, I'm an asshole to everyone even when I'm being polite here


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 1, 2014)

I was more referring to the "newish poster vs polite poster" scenario that you outlined.

And yeah, you don't count.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 1, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> Frieza desotryed the core for a planet, not a planet, different things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




We have no reason to doubt Frieza's statements. Piccolo effortlessly destroyed the moon, meaning that there's no reason why a being like Frieza, who was insurmountably more powerful than he was at that time, couldn't blow up a whole planet.

Furthermore, when Vegeta noticed that earth doesn't have a moon any more, he just chocked it up to Goku having blown it up, and doesn't bat an eye at the feat. Blowing up a moon is trivial to Vegeta, so he didn't make anything of it. And again, Frieza even in base form is still many many times stronger than Vegeta at that point.

Why did Frieza only destroy Namek's core? Because it was a different technique. He used a death ball for that, which presumably has a much much smaller AoE. Meanwhile he blew up Vegeta with his supernova, which causes a bigger bang.
He also flat-out said that he held back too much; i.e. he intended to blow up the planet completely, but misjudged the AoE of his deathball and hence only destroyed the core.


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> We have no reason to doubt Frieza's statements. Piccolo effortlessly destroyed the moon, meaning that there's no reason why a being like Frieza, who was insurmountably more powerful than he was at that time, couldn't blow up a whole planet.
> 
> Furthermore, when Vegeta noticed that earth doesn't have a moon any more, he just chocked it up to Goku having blown it up, and doesn't bat an eye at the feat. Blowing up a moon is trivial to Vegeta, so he didn't make anything of it. And again, Frieza even in base form is still many many times stronger than Vegeta at that point.
> 
> ...



not to mention then producing quite the explosion as a result, the fact Namek's several times larger than earth, the fact that Frieza was heavily exhausted at this point in time and not even in his 100% form...


----------



## TobiSan (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> We have no reason to doubt Frieza's statements. Piccolo effortlessly destroyed the moon, meaning that there's no reason why a being like Frieza, who was insurmountably more powerful than he was at that time, couldn't blow up a whole planet.
> 
> Furthermore, when Vegeta noticed that earth doesn't have a moon any more, he just chocked it up to Goku having blown it up, and doesn't bat an eye at the feat. Blowing up a moon is trivial to Vegeta, so he didn't make anything of it. And again, Frieza even in base form is still many many times stronger than Vegeta at that point.
> 
> ...



There is still no proof, what defeats it even more is that Raditz said that it was destroyed by a comet. Huge difference in a comet and a supernova. While Frieza lied several times, I don't remember Raditz lying at all. Goku also said that neither he or Frieza could tank a planetary explosion, so did Frieza Supernova it from another solar system?

Like I said again destroying a moon is just PIS, because when Vegeta went all out near the end of manga, he didn't produce near enough fire power to destroy anything even half the Moon's size. 

They destroyed Moon twice and then never showed any power on that level by main characters.


Also apparently they can tank planet explosions and destroy planets, but Trunks got K.Od when Android 18 threw him against Vegeta. The manga is full of PIS.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Aug 1, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> Like I said again destroying a moon is just PIS, because when Vegeta went all out near the end of manga, he didn't produce near enough fire power to destroy anything even half the Moon's size.
> They destroyed Moon twice and then never showed any power on that level by main characters.
> 
> Also apparently they can tank planet explosions and destroy planets, but Trunks got K.Od when Android 18 threw him against Vegeta. The manga is full of PIS.



Like hell it's PIS. It's a legit feat. Piccolo blew up the moon. Vegeta was threatening to destroy Earth when he and Nappa arrived. As said before, the context at this time of the series supports Vegeta's statement so shut the fuck up about that already. 

As for not showing the power on par with destroying the Moon by main characters... Bitch, have you heard of concentrated attacks? Because that's what they're doing whenever they throw ki blasts, hell just attacks in general, around. By your "logic," we should downplay Saint Seiya to wall level, then, because they don't show star-galaxy level destruction all the time... 

You're pretty much using the "I don't like it so it's not a legit feat" argument. Deal with it. Dragon Ball is small planet level-planet level during the Saiyan Saga and they only keep getting more powerful as the series goes on.

As for the Trunks getting K.O.'d by getting thrown against Vegeta thing... It could be that, oh I don't know, the Androids have a lot of physical strength. Considering 18 (or Lazuli since Toriyama recently gave them names) broke Vegeta's arm, and Vegeta has large planet level+ durability considering by this point, he's superior to a Frieza who survived Namek exploding... I'll take the physical strength reasoning over your PIS bullshit any time. Seriously, calling shit that you don't like "PIS" doesn't fly here.

Your downplaying is laughable.


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 1, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> There is still no proof, what defeats it even more is that Raditz said that it was destroyed by a comet. Huge difference in a comet and a supernova. While Frieza lied several times, I don't remember Raditz lying at all. Goku also said that neither he or Frieza could tank a planetary explosion, so did Frieza Supernova it from another solar system?
> 
> Like I said again destroying a moon is just PIS, because when Vegeta went all out near the end of manga, he didn't produce near enough fire power to destroy anything even half the Moon's size.
> 
> They destroyed Moon twice and then never showed any power on that level by main characters.



Raditz:
Wasn't there.
Frieza:
Was there.
Ignoring that, if I recall correctly, this is internal thoughts. Unless Frieza likes lying to himself, in his head, I really doubt that this is him making up falsehoods. Ignoring that, I do believe that the episode of bardock is canon, so not a problem either way.
Let's continue on your argument, however.


> There is still no proof, what defeats it even more is that Raditz said that it was destroyed by a comet. Huge difference in a comet and a supernova. While Frieza lied several times, I don't remember Raditz lying at all. Goku also said that neither he or Frieza could tank a planetary explosion, so did Frieza Supernova it from another solar system?


Scans of Goku saying neither of them can tank a planetary explosion?
Perhaps you mean when he accused Frieza of being afraid of encapsulating himself in the blast, holding back too much to take it out in a single hit.

This only proves that Frieza can create enough energy that if it was concentrated near him it could hurt him. Not that a planet-level explosion is enough. Especially when, again, namek >> Earth in size.

Frieza states that Goku would die, but that has a lot to do with the fact Frieza can breathe in space and Goku cannot. That and he is arrogant regarding what Goku can survive.
Goku outright points out later that Frieza could honestly just win this battle by firing at the planet again, and was only refraining to do so in order to prove he could crush the super saiyan in a direct contest of strength.
Also going to point out that:

-Raditz had no real special intelligence, reliable sources of information(other than Frieza, who would not tell a saiyan warrior that he destroyed the rest of his race) and frankly didn't question orders. His opinion is easily misinformed and has no reliability. 

Vegeta on the other hand outright figures out that Frieza betrayed their entire race, and further verification actually came from the battle of gods movie, where Bills outright made Frieza destroy planet Vegeta for him because he had an issue with the planet, and he was too lazy to go there himself and do it.

Comet hasn't been mentioned in ever, and only by one low-ranking saiyan warrior. No reason his opinion on the matter's going to be reliable.


But going to point out that that level of power is done in-series by things such as:
-cell's explosion being directly stated to be capable of blowing up the planet to the point one character felt the need to actually sacrifice his life to stop said explosion.

As far as actual factors though - King Kai's planet has a density allowing it gravity 10x Earth, which makes the feat planet-level for vaping it(As far as I remember nothing has stated it's magical).

-The fact the moon is still vaped whether you like it or not. You'd have to prove it's a serious outlier here, and you've got very little to rely on that underplays it. It's again directly referenced, along with a yield, in DB online, which is canon by virtue of having it's plot written by Akira Toriyama. Fairly supported as a feat.

-The fact Vegeta's unsurprised by the fact that the Moon is vaped.

-The fact Vegeta was very confident that his Galick gun could destroy a planet, and the fact Goku was likewise confident enough to actually stop the beam with his own, draining his own energy reserves, rather than just dodging it.

-the fact this:

Is big enough to be a significant fraction of the moon's actual size by the beam alone.

but let's address one point here:


> Like I said again destroying a moon is just PIS, because when Vegeta went all out near the end of manga, he didn't produce near enough fire power to destroy anything even half the Moon's size.


Went all out... Are you referring to when he self-destructed? In order to try to take out buu and save his family? the family that would die in an explosion that would destroy the planet? The character that's much higher than frieza who still by your logic destroyed an entire planetary core and thus has to be lowering his blast radius by at least some magnitude at this point anyway?
Yeah, I can totally see why he'd just destroy the earth with his self-destruct.

but really, if we want to argue this, I mean, really want to argue this, I'll just post a few pictures of the point where buu does blow up earth.
Referenced from here:


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## TobiSan (Aug 1, 2014)

If you can't see how that is PIS, I will go by that logic.

Piccolo is stronger than Vegeta and Goku combined with that Moon busting feat. Because neither Goku or Vegeta showed anything on that level, meaning they are shit compared to Piccolo.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 1, 2014)

What is powerscaling.


----------



## La speranza (Aug 1, 2014)

Whis stated that Freeza blew up Planet Vegeta.
In Dragon Ball Minus, Frieza stated that he'd blow up Planet Vegeta in 1 month, what a coincidence that a planet-busting asteroid just happened to hit it then...


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

Regicide said:


> What is powerscaling.



You'd think fuckers taking part in this hobby would know how by now

Should we find it funny that he doesn't apply the same standards to Sora, who pretty much gets his fire power from the same means the rest of the dragon ball cast does


----------



## King Kakarot (Aug 1, 2014)

how does he make it past cell?


----------



## NightmareCinema (Aug 1, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> how does he make it past cell?



By being faster than Cell and having large planet level+ DC.


----------



## King Kakarot (Aug 1, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> By being faster than Cell and having large planet level+ DC.



cell has large planet dc and durability+ as well not too mention his regen


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

To what extent is Cell large planet level?


----------



## King Kakarot (Aug 1, 2014)

Fenrir said:


> To what extent is Cell large planet level?



freeza himself was large planet lvl in his base alone


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 1, 2014)

TobiSan said:


> If you can't see how that is PIS, I will go by that logic.
> 
> Piccolo is stronger than Vegeta and Goku combined with that Moon busting feat. Because neither Goku or Vegeta showed anything on that level, meaning they are shit compared to Piccolo.



or maybe they just don't want to blow up the whole planet when they fight since they need to breathe and etc. still, thus controlling the AoE of their attacks.
Just maybe.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Aug 1, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> cell has large planet dc and durability+ as well not too mention his regen



I know he does.
But Cell doesn't have the speed to keep up with Sora.



> freeza himself was *large planet lvl in his base alone*



No, he wasn't. Quit bullshitting.


----------



## Iwandesu (Aug 1, 2014)

Bardock episode is likely cannon Anyway.(it even has a manga one shot created by toryama's BFF)


			
				akira said:
			
		

> "Ooishi-san understands Dragon Ball really well, and she knows so much about it too. I've plump forgot what in Dragon Ball, so she knows about 1,000 times more about it than me! But what I admire more is her considerable artistic strength and skill at manga composition."
> — Akira Toriyama, 2009


So yeah...

*Spoiler*: __ 







Your downplay has no basis at all.


----------



## Iwandesu (Aug 1, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> No, he wasn't. Quit bullshitting.


He is likely talking about this calc.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Aug 1, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> He is likely talking about this calc.



Oh.

Didn't see that one.

I'm a bit outdated when it comes to base Frieza.

Nevermind, then. I'm in the wrong. My bad.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 1, 2014)

Shouldn't it be a given that Cell is large planet + because of power scaling from Frieza even without any particular calcs?
Regardless of exactly how much energy he put out to blow up planet Vegeta, he still a) destroyed it in his weakest form and b) did so quite literally with the flick of a finger.
Given how much stronger than Frieza Cell is, it's a obvious that he'd at least be LP+


Btw, how is Sora faster than Cell?


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 1, 2014)

Sora's FTL now.
You can thank Tacocat for that.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 1, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> Sora's FTL now.
> You can thank Tacocat for that.




I call shenanigans!


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

Average ^ (use bro) worth their salt is transluminal. The 71c calc counts towards Sora, Riku, Ven, Vanitas and TX.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 1, 2014)

Grab your cheese, because I wanna whine for a moment: This is why speed feats are bullshit IMO. Go down the list. Of the major reoccurring characters, how many AREN'T at least supersonic+ at this point? Just like every franchise and their mother having omnipotence of some description, having everyone and their mother be hypersonic or faster completely devalues it. You know how having a Bankai in Bleach was built up as something extremely extraordinary, but ultimately lost all meaning by bloody everyone having one (same with SSJ in DBZ for that matter)? I feel it's the same thing here. 
Especially if you're talking about characters like Sora, who never show abilities like this outside of instances that (IMO) were clearly not thought through by the writers - like that bit about Zeus rearranging worlds. This is why I think you have to look at things like this a lot more selectively, and prioritize feats that are actually relevant to the stories of these IPs - especially for stuff you take from games.

/whining


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> -blub blub blub-



You don't like it, deal with it.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

You're right, it is whining and laden with ranting more suited to MVC's debating environment

We don't pretend the creators give or gave a shit about how powerful the characters are (there's a good deal I've seen that suggests most don't)

Kind of why we remove them from the equation unless they bother to specify shit, and even then... they can an do say shit we discount as stupid when it contradicts the tangible substance viewed on screen.

Now quit sounding like a dejected fanboy and get back to actually debating


----------



## Iwandesu (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Grab your cheese, because I wanna whine for a moment: This is why speed feats are bullshit IMO. Go down the list. Of the major reoccurring characters, how many AREN'T at least supersonic+ at this point? Just like every franchise and their mother having omnipotence of some description, having everyone and their mother be hypersonic or faster completely devalues it. You know how having a Bankai in Bleach was built up as something extremely extraordinary, but ultimately lost all meaning by bloody everyone having one (same with SSJ in DBZ for that matter)? I feel it's the same thing here.
> Especially if you're talking about characters like Sora, who never show abilities like this outside of instances that (IMO) were clearly not thought through by the writers - like that bit about Zeus rearranging worlds. This is why I think you have to look at things like this a lot more selectively, and prioritize feats that are actually relevant to the stories of these IPs - especially for stuff you take from games.
> /whining


>Author intent is subjective being the reason we don't use it.
>Ven is among the fastest characters on the series just a couple or 2 got scalled from this feat and  there are at least some others interestellar instancies on the verse.
>Zeus rearranging the worlds is a feat which shows Zeus power it just happened that there are stronger characters than him. 
But yeah, sometimes one need to whine
Just a random whining sadly


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Grab your cheese, because I wanna whine for a moment: This is why speed feats are bullshit IMO. Go down the list. Of the major reoccurring characters, how many AREN'T at least supersonic+ at this point? Just like every franchise and their mother having omnipotence of some description, having everyone and their mother be hypersonic or faster completely devalues it. You know how having a Bankai in Bleach was built up as something extremely extraordinary, but ultimately lost all meaning by bloody everyone having one (same with SSJ in DBZ for that matter)? I feel it's the same thing here.
> Especially if you're talking about characters like Sora, who never show abilities like this outside of instances that (IMO) were clearly not thought through by the writers - like that bit about Zeus rearranging worlds. This is why I think you have to look at things like this a lot more selectively, and prioritize feats that are actually relevant to the stories of these IPs - especially for stuff you take from games.
> 
> /whining


I'm going to point out: OBD's not concerned about keeping the values "Valuable". We're concerned about keeping them realistic to what the characters can do. that's it.
We also ignore author intent here almost all the time - otherwise Base Goku would be > Frieza until post-BOG here. What matters is if it happens, because regardless of how one looks at it, we're judging these characters by what they've been shown to actually do and be capable of.
I find it terrible that you're not truly arguing about the fact that it's inaccurate, but just the fact you aesthetically don't like it. That's a pretty lame justification.



TobiSan said:


> If you can't see how that is PIS, I will go by that logic.
> 
> Piccolo is stronger than Vegeta and Goku combined with that Moon busting feat. Because neither Goku or Vegeta showed anything on that level, meaning they are shit compared to Piccolo.


----------



## Solar (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Grab your cheese, because I wanna whine for a moment



Yeah, almost every verse goes through in-series power inflation, and that leads to extra-series power inflation if the right feats come up. Series that include some kind of space travel are very likely to have FTL speeds with minimum MHS reactions.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 1, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> I'm going to point out: OBD's not concerned about keeping the values "Valuable". We're concerned about keeping them realistic to what the characters can do. that's it.
> We also ignore author intent here almost all the time - otherwise Base Goku would be > Frieza until post-BOG here. What matters is if it happens, because regardless of how one looks at it, we're judging these characters by what they've been shown to actually do and be capable of.
> I find it terrible that you're not truly arguing about the fact that it's inaccurate, but just the fact you aesthetically don't like it. That's a pretty lame justification.




I'm not buying that Sora is FTL from a canon perspective, either. Not just because I dislike the concept.
In neither gameplay nor story is he consistently shown to be anything beyond regular human in speed. Sure there are spells and power ups that can _temporarily_ speed him up in gameplay or times where he gets teleport shenanigans during certain boss fights, but it's nothing constant.
So, are we to completely ignore what the character is doing for literally 99% of his screen time, just because of a select few feats that you could only ever find by specifically looking for them?


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> I'm not buying that Sora is FTL from a canon perspective, either. Not just because I dislike the concept.
> *In neither gameplay nor story is he consistently shown to be anything beyond regular human in speed*. Sure there are spells and power ups that can _temporarily_ speed him up in gameplay or times where he gets teleport shenanigans during certain boss fights, but it's nothing constant.
> So, are we to completely ignore what the character is doing for literally 99% of his screen time, just because of a select few feats that you could only ever find by specifically looking for them?


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

I'd like to point out that in KH there's a fucking whale and countless space fodder that are transluminal


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 1, 2014)

Oh come on, you know what I mean. He's certainly not seen darting around at hypersonic speeds, let alone light speed.


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Oh come on, you know what I mean. He's certainly not seen darting around at hypersonic speeds, let alone light speed.



Have you not played the games? Have you not seen a Xehanort before?


----------



## Regicide (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> This is why speed feats are bullshit IMO.


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 1, 2014)

I died


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Oh come on, you know what I mean. He's certainly not seen darting around at hypersonic speeds, let alone light speed.



Other than the several speedblitzes he can pull off, Outrunning/reacting to hypersonic projectiles, flying around at high speeds in order to fight xemnas's dragonship form, reacting to countless dozens of projectiles...
But ignoring that, imagine the gameplay did have the character moving around at hypersonic speeds.
Kind of impossible, ain't it? Actual people don't react at lightspeed.
One could argue that still invalidates, yet we use DB's high-end feats all the time despite the fact we can see their moves generally and thus they're not even faster-than-the-eye if we treat it like that.
We go with the high-ends here, because the consistency factor would generally make everyone peak human if we treated it otherwise.
Going to point out though, among other things sora does
-Dodges fire, ice, and lightning magic, the latter of which requires him to move fast enough to dodge lightning.
-fights planet level characters like Xemnas capable of moving around in space under their own power
-Is capable of reacting to laser attacks in the tron verse
-Has a fair few skills that are purely physical in nature that allow him to speedblitz like Zantetsuken.
Sora's got a lot of support for being speedy.


----------



## Adamant soul (Aug 1, 2014)

Yeah, Sora is totally slow.


----------



## Tacocat (Aug 1, 2014)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> It always seems to happen that way.
> 
> Just look at the responses Fujita and Tacocat get.


Well, I'm not _always_ polite 



BigIsaac said:


> In neither gameplay nor story is he consistently shown to be anything beyond regular human in speed.




Except the dozen+ speed calcs garnered from feats directly from gameplay and story that place Sora well beyond anything even the most absurd humans can do? Most of which didn't have to be calculated to be considered flagrantly superhuman? Yeah, except for those.

Perspective time is a thing, pal.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 1, 2014)

OK I admit, "peak human" wasn't giving him enough credit.
Still, I think you shouldn't grant characters FTL movement so easily, especially with how inconsistent things like movement in space tends to be. Same with dodging dem lasors and magic lightning.
Is there something in a cutscene that has him move at ludicrous speeds (even if it's not directly measure-able), and if so, does that something indicate FTL movement?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

Quit trying to move a goal post you have no control of the position over

Can be gameplay or cinematic, both are valid and feats from a given medium

Just because some on the internet are slack jawed idiots regarding this double standard distinction doesn't mean that flies here


----------



## Tacocat (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> OK I admit, "peak human" wasn't giving him enough credit.


In which case your stance on how "IRL time doesn't always show him moving at superduperspeeds" is completely irrelevant. It was irrelevant before, too, but hey...



> Still, I think you shouldn't grant characters FTL movement so easily,


With two FTL calcs, one relativistic calc, and a feat of flagrantly FTL telekinesis? What do you define as not so "easily"? Depending on your answer, I might have to completely disregard your opinion altogether. (Note that it will be considered arbitrary either way.)



> especially with how inconsistent things like movement in space tends to be.


Short-term interplanetary travel is inconsistent? Huh, I was under the impression that shit always tended to be hella fast...



> Same with dodging dem lasors and magic lightning.


Except we measure KH characters' speeds using neither of these things.



> Is there something in a cutscene that has him move at ludicrous speeds (even if it's not directly measure-able), and if so, does that something indicate FTL movement?


There is a cutscene in which Sora's light magic reaches the moon in less than half a second. Characters react to and dodge light magic all the time.

Alternatively, Zeus's telekinesis is also FTL. Objects TK'd by vastly superior characters are reacted to, dodged, and outpaced.

Alternatively, Monstro, in a cutscene, outpaced a ship capable of minute-long interplanetary travel...while it was conducting said interplanetary travel.

Alternatively, that feat with Ven that was linked to you? Of him reacting to Stitch's MFTL cruiser over a few meters? That's also a feat from a cutscene.

So...yeah.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 1, 2014)

I suppose beating him down by pointing out his logic is flawed even without pointing out his flagrant impotent goal post moving works too

Takes more work than I care to go with at this time though


----------



## Iwandesu (Aug 1, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> OK I admit, "peak human" wasn't giving him enough credit.
> Still, I think you shouldn't grant characters FTL movement so easily, especially with how inconsistent things like movement in space tends to be. Same with dodging dem *lasors and magic lightning*.
> Is there something in a cutscene that has him move at ludicrous speeds (even if it's not directly measure-able), and if so, does that something indicate FTL movement?


We nearly never consider both as actual methods (only when lighting come from clouds or the laser has real laser properties like folowing light spread)
Also he doesn't need to have ftl movement, he just needs ftl reactions and short movement speed (aka ftl combat speed) which is what the calc is about.
 And even if he would need, slower folks do have.
Btw, "incosistent" argument is kinda flawed as ftl shit is not even possible in reality to begin with, how would an impossible thing be portrayed as "inconsistent"?
Are you implying outlier? This makes no sense as ven is a speedsters by himself.


----------



## Tacocat (Aug 1, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I suppose beating him down by pointing out his logic is flawed even without pointing out his flagrant impotent goal post moving works too
> 
> Takes more work than I care to go with at this time though



Killing time till I have to leave to see Guardians 
Though, I do tend to entertain these posters more than I should. Heaven knows I've responded to people more asinine than this kid.


----------



## Kazu (Aug 1, 2014)

You're a trooper Taco


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 2, 2014)

Lol im still loling at this Sora planet level shit.
"Sora is planet level DC" Lol do people actually believe that shit? Gullible as fuck.


Regicide said:


> Whether or not Sora or anyone uses TK or not is kind of irrelevant, that's just one method of outputting a character's given destructive power.
> 
> There's nothing suggesting that comparable or stronger characters *can't output similar levels of energy through other means*, like their spells or melee strikes.


And what suggests that they can.


----------



## Tacocat (Aug 2, 2014)

Go ahead and debunk it, then.

I'll wait.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 2, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Lol im still loling at this Sora planet level shit.
> "Sora is planet level DC" Lol do people actually believe that shit? Gullible as fuck.




^come on, guys. At least I question the logic of the calcs, not the existence of the calcs themselves like this guy. That's better, right? ... right?


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 2, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Lol im still loling at this Sora planet level shit.
> "Sora is planet level DC" Lol do people actually believe that shit? Gullible as fuck.
> 
> And what suggests that they can.



>B-but muh opinion


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 2, 2014)

>inb4 he says they've never been portrayed at this level
>inb4 what is powerscaling


----------



## Sablés (Aug 2, 2014)

Tacocat said:


> Go ahead and debunk it, then.
> 
> I'll wait.



i disagree

calc debunked


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 2, 2014)

In 8 pages. THere is literally not a SINGLE calc that shows Sora is Planet level.
Nor is their even one statement of supporting evidence given that the proposed calcs for another character can be directly applied to Sora.
Not a god damn one, that can even show you can scale it to Sora. Not a god damn one
And yet people are entertaining the idea that hes planet level. 

There is The starts being rearranged for Sora/Goofy/Donald.
And talk about Kingdom hearts strength.
Thats it. Nothing about Sora's actual strength and nothing about what is scalable to him. Only "This = Sora". Bitch please.

Yet pages what 6 and 7 are completely about showing DB and how powerscaling applies
Yet not fucking one for KH.
Anyone believing this tripe is gullible as fuck.

Even if Sora blitz Freiza, he doesnt have anything for Cell, moving on.


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 2, 2014)

>He edits his post
>Yet adds nothing of substance or value


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 2, 2014)

You dont have a feel, you're an idiot.
8 pages, not one for Sora. You can literally look 2 pages back for DB's supporting evidence. You can go 1-8 and see supporting evidence for other characters, without any application of scaling or using in-verse logic to show that its applicable to Sora when deemed true.

Enjoy playing with the gullible kids.


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 2, 2014)

>Hasn't asked exactly where this level of power comes from like anyone of right mind would do
>Hasn't asked why nobody has disputed these values if we were in fact just pulling them out of our ass

Seriously, I might just entertain your shit if you actually read up on it and give your rebuttal


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 2, 2014)

Ask for what. Pages 2 and 3 are links to 
1) the proposal that a worlds heart is equivalent to GBE to make a statement of KH being planet level
2) The stars being re arranged in the image of our protagonists.

That is the supporting evidence, and yet none of it is shown scalable to Sora.
You continue to avoid showing that even your questionable proposal applies to Sora.
8 pages without an established connection.
If you can't even do this much you literally dont have an argument for him being planet level.

You need not entertain anything. You have no established connection to your "calcs" so you dont have an argument. Entertain yourself.
Gullible.


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 2, 2014)

>Nothing applies to Sora
>When Aqua stepped on a bloodlusted Hades, who's comparable to at least a casual Zeus
>And it's not like it only took him and Riku to overpower someone who has greater power than Zeus or the level of power your brought up
>And it's not like Xehanort's Heartless' power wasn't keeping the End of The World intact and is responsible for HB/Radiant Garden's planet being nothing but a barren wasteland outside its castle grounds

You're fucking hilarious. It's like you refuse to use your own brainpower or reasoning as to why these claims are being made in the first place. Jackasses who are also wrong is a terrible combination, for future reference.


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 2, 2014)

Bloodlusted hades is comparable to Casual Zeus is what you just said.
Show Zeus in kingdom hearts. You cannot as he has not made an appearance. You're making a comparison of power to a character who hasn't even shown himself. 
First bullshit.

Second bullshit, you once again bring upon Zeus' power that isn't known, you then want to compare the fact that Riku & Sora won 2v1 to mean what? That Sora is planet level+? That isn't proof of anything other than the two of them are strong enough to beat Xehanort.

Radiant Garden exists. Its not destroyed. Again not showing anyone planet level +. Again not establishing a connection to Sora's strength.
Even still it was Maleficient that attacked Radiant Garden

"Radiant Garden is a wasteland and exists....planet level + man."
Namek exploded as a planet larger than earth....and no longer existed, thats Planet level+.

Stop being a kid and state something real.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 2, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Second bullshit, you once again bring upon Zeus' power that isn't known, you then want to compare the fact that Riku & Sora won 2v1 to mean what? That Sora is planet level+? That isn't proof of anything other than the two of them are strong enough to beat Xehanort.



The underlined... isn't he the fucker that moved the stars and shit?

Not a KH fan, though I do know he did something similar in the movie.

Secondly...

You shoot yourself in the foot by acknowledging they're strong enough to beat Xemnas

Granted, you're from 2006, so deductive reasoning back then wasn't your strong suit.

If you can harm and beat a fucker with planet level durability, you're generating the fucking power to destroy a planet when you harm them.  That's admissible by our current standards of evidence.  Not sure why this never occurred to you fuckers way back when, but god it was a fucking issue with you guys when I lurked.



> Radiant Garden exists. Its not destroyed. Again not showing anyone planet level +. Again not establishing a connection to Sora's strength.



Conservation of energy is hardly ever observed to be accurately portrayed anywhere in fiction.  We tend to ignore that so long as feats on the level being claimed have been observed to exist in any form.

That, and you kind of need to prove that there's no plot driven reason for the characters to hold back.

Lack of collateral isn't a valid argument however chuckles.



> Stop being a kid and state something real.



Quit being a tit and lurk the section.

Will I deny that your observations are correct?

No, they are.

Are they valid arguments?

No, not really.  Less headache inducing to not bother dealing with shit like conservation of energy so long as feats above other showings exist.

Welcome back to the clusterfuck of vs debating, where nothing we'll ever do is concrete an everyone stands with a valid point so long as they're not fucking hypocritical in analysis.


----------



## Fenrir (Aug 2, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Bloodlusted hades is comparable to Casual Zeus is what you just said.
> Show Zeus in kingdom hearts. You cannot as he has not made an appearance. You're making a comparison of power to a character who hasn't even shown himself.
> First bullshit.


>Implying having to see him is necessary to make what I just stated a minimum considering the source material

Unless you want to give me evidence in any form that Hades is incomparable to him despite his power over his contrast realm and has the mind to go against him to begin with?


> Second bullshit, you once again bring upon Zeus' power that isn't known


Stop being such a dumb shit. Please, refute him moving the stars without the usual opinion-driven argument.



> you then want to compare the fact that Riku & Sora won 2v1 to mean what?


Because 2 vs 1 is like an entire group of superpowered people going up against him, amirite? Just two of them stacking up against him would mean both of them having the sufficient power individually to do shit to him in the first place in a multi-form battle.



> Radiant Garden exists. Its not destroyed. Again not showing anyone planet level +. Again not establishing a connection to Sora's strength.


>Still can't into reading comprehension
>Conveniently ignores his feat of holding together the End of The World under his own powers

I said he turned RG _outside its castle grounds_ into a wasteland. As in from an outskirts view it's nothing but plains and rocks. I never said it was planet level, it's simply an impressive feat of his, considering he evidently ravaged the surface of it



> Stop being a kid and state something real.


You still haven't given shit of substance, if you haven't noticed


----------



## P-X 12 (Aug 2, 2014)

Know that it's been answered already, but fuck it.



ensoriki said:


> Bloodlusted hades is comparable to Casual Zeus is what you just said.
> Show Zeus in kingdom hearts. You cannot as he has not made an appearance. You're making a comparison of power to a character who hasn't even shown himself.
> First bullshit.



Wrong. He's the one manipulating the stars. The end scene is supposed to be a reference to the movie, where Zeus moved the stars into the shape of Herc himself (the only difference here is the shape).



> Second bullshit, you once again bring upon Zeus' power that isn't known, you then want to compare the fact that Riku & Sora won 2v1 to mean what? That Sora is planet level+? That isn't proof of anything other than the two of them are strong enough to beat Xehanort.



Wrong once again. Sora and Riku both took several hits from Twilight Xemnas without getting their shit pushed in, who is the strongest being there is in the series (up to and including several normal hits, a prolonged Agony Beam that didn't even faze Sora the moment he left it and a barrage of lasers that, after a point start causing a massive explosion; they're more exhausted by the ordeal than damaged).

And yes, he's more powerful than Zeus; he's been described so by both the makers of the damn game and I think the game itself, pretty much confirmed by the fact that he absorbed an admittedly incomplete version of Kingdom Hearts. Not only that, but they also were able to harm him. They would have to get the scaling based on those two feats alone. The only way that they wouldn't is Xemnas was holding back during their fight, which the story contradicts (he wanted both of them dead). 




> Radiant Garden exists. Its not destroyed. Again not showing anyone planet level +. Again not establishing a connection to Sora's strength.
> Even still it was Maleficient that attacked Radiant Garden
> 
> "Radiant Garden is a wasteland and exists....planet level + man."
> Namek exploded as a planet larger than earth....and no longer existed, thats Planet level+.



On Radiant Garden, that's not the only feat like that. Hell, there are a multitude of other worlds that named characters have destroyed (the most obvious one being Destiny Islands) and the fact that they're all weaker than End of KH2 Sora. The one that's most obvious is Ansem, Seeker of Darkness.



> Stop being a kid and state something real.



You're the one ignoring evidence and saying shit that isn't even correct to make your point.


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 2, 2014)

Zeus hasn't actually appeared in series. He is referenced more then once and is implied to do the feat as I recall.
However he hasn't fought, he hasn't shown his face, so Fenrir can't possibly know if Bloodlusted Hades is comparable to casual Zeus...because Zeus has never shown a casual feat given he hasnt appeared...

If I wrote a story
"There was Bob, and George. Bob can move mountains, fly and likes peanuts" Can you say, Bob bloodlusted is comparable to a casual George given the information I have given you?
You cannot, but he said it.

They beat Xemnas 2v1, neither one of them was strong enough individually this seems to be what we've all agreed on. Sounds fine by me.

Yes I am from 2006, you are from 2010. The number was irrelevant but go ahead and act like it is.


> If you can harm and beat a fucker with planet level durability, you're generating the fucking power to destroy a planet when you harm them. That's admissible by our current standards of evidence. Not sure why this never occurred to you fuckers way back when, but god it was a fucking issue with you guys when I lurke


Full stop.
Where is Xemnas "planet level durability". I don't recall anyone showing this whatsoever. I do however recall you can throw a fucking skyscraper at him. I do remember casting spells and knocking him silly with my keyblade, and a lovely scene where Sora shoots a keyblade laser up his ass. Would you remind me of what planet durability he has? Shoot I can load up KH 3d right now and we're talking skyscrapers. I can go hunting for my ps2, and find skyscrapers. I can go on youtube and I'll find...skyscrapers. I can go fuck it, pull up Ansem reports/secret files and I damn doubt I'll see anything indicating planet level durability. Wheres the calc because its not in this thread.




> Conservation of energy is hardly ever observed to be accurately portrayed anywhere in fiction. We tend to ignore that so long as feats on the level being claimed have been observed to exist in any form.
> 
> That, and you kind of need to prove that there's no plot driven reason for the characters to hold back.
> 
> Lack of collateral isn't a valid argument however chuckles.


Hold back what? It wasnt even shown he was planet level.
Radiant garden became a wasteland because Maleficient attacked with the Heartless.
If we're going by plot, the only "responsibility" Xehanort and his iterations have over Radiant Gardens fate is that he spurned Maleficient on to attack worlds for the princesses.
What need I care for the conservation of energy, when attacks of relevancy aren't even shown. One step at a time.



> No, not really. Less headache inducing to not bother dealing with shit like conservation of energy so long as feats above other showings exist.
> 
> Welcome back to the clusterfuck of vs debating, where nothing we'll ever do is concrete an everyone stands with a valid point so long as they're not fucking hypocritical in analysis.


I didnt ask for anything concrete, I've asked for very little.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 2, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Zeus hasn't actually appeared in series. He is referenced more then once and is implied to do the feat as I recall.



That's more than enough then honestly.



> However he hasn't fought, he hasn't shown his face, so Fenrir can't possibly know if Bloodlusted Hades is comparable to casual Zeus...because Zeus has never shown a casual feat given he hasnt appeared...



That's valid too.

he doesn't need to appear though.  You just need to know that, compared to twilight Xemnas, he's not nearly as powerful.

That, on top of absorbing Kingdom Hearts gives that form his high power.  Both Sora and Riku survive bloodlusted cutscene attacks from the fucker in their final fight, he should be no less durable than them.

Really not that difficult a game of connect the dots.



> If I wrote a story
> "There was Bob, and George. Bob can move mountains, fly and likes peanuts" Can you say, Bob bloodlusted is comparable to a casual George given the information I have given you?
> You cannot, but he said it.



Less is more

Occam's razor being your friend.  With a lack of character traits or narrative pointing to holding back, it's safer too assume across the board a character is both serious and giving it their all.  It's a pretty easy standard to apply across all fictions.  Kind of why it's kept.



> They beat Xemnas 2v1, neither one of them was strong enough individually this seems to be what we've all agreed on. Sounds fine by me.



Yep.

And they'd need to be able to injure him in some fashion to have won.

Ergo, their level of power.



> Yes I am from 2006, you are from 2010. The number was irrelevant but go ahead and act like it is.



The number isn't relevant.  I use it to glean at how the OBD thought at a given point in time though.

How you fuckers used to attack a thread no longer really applies.  Too many contradictions and double standards (I'd say you fuckers were better technical debaters, but fuck if you didn't have a Gordian knot  of poor standards going that I had to dismantle over time).

That's been ironed out more so.  Not perfect, but we're objectively more streamlined across the board in recent years.



> Full stop.
> Where is Xemnas "planet level durability". I don't recall anyone showing this whatsoever.



>Sora and Riku survive Twilight Xemnas' magic in a cutscene driven attack sequence
>Twilight Xemnas is stronger than the pair

Not too hard to connect the dots if you pull your head out of your ass and your dated standards.



> Hold back what? It wasnt even shown he was planet level.



>Absorbed kingdom hearts
>More powerful than Zeus per word of god, the fucker that's implied to have moved the stars

Like I said, deductive reasoning failed miserably for you fuckers back then.



> What need I care for the conservation of energy, when attacks of relevancy aren't even shown. One step at a time.



You're ignoring what you're given.  Absorbing the power of an object that recreated 140 odd planets and being more powerful than the fucker that moved stars is really all that's needed (well, no, the absorption of kingdom hearts is all that's needed, but I digress)


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 2, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> That's more than enough then honestly.
> That's valid too.
> 
> he doesn't need to appear though.  You just need to know that, compared to twilight Xemnas, he's not nearly as powerful.


For the purpose of Hades is comparable to casual Zeus "Hes not as strong as twilight xemnas" is what makes that true? No its not.

However fine lets blatantly ignore it and focus on Xemnas.

Sora & Riku beat Xemnas, they injure him through their own strength so we will put as far as durability - Whatever their maximum strength is, is certain to be enough to hurt him.




> That, on top of absorbing Kingdom Hearts gives that form his high power.  Both Sora and Riku survive bloodlusted cutscene attacks from the fucker in their final fight, he should be no less durable than them.


"They survive blood lust attacks from him, so he is as or more durable then them"
You didn't make an actual connection here, however I'll give it to you anyways because I dont think its a big deal.




> Really not that difficult a game of connect the dots.


Lol so why are you making it difficult? We blatantly see that Sora is at *bare* minimum capable of destroying sky scrapers. We see Sora throw them at Xemnas to disrupt him. So we know getting a skyscraper sent at his ass doesn't bode well by him. Doesn't kill him though so we can automatically say Xemnas is durable enough to be hit by a skyscraper.
So far at our *bare* minimum, the three combatants are skyscraper/building durability at minimum.
Now how are we going from that, which we know for sure is a solid base to start conversing to planet level + durability and/or offense.




> Less is more
> 
> Occam's razor being your friend.  With a lack of character traits or narrative pointing to holding back, it's safer too assume across the board a character is both serious and giving it their all.  It's a pretty easy standard to apply across all fictions.  Kind of why it's kept.


Let me repeat.
"There is Bob and there is george. Bob can destroy mountains." You can't go and Tell Fenrir "Fenrir Bob bloodlusted is at least comparable to casual george". When the reality may be.
"There and bob and george. Bob can destroy mountains. George destroys planets." or George destroys houses. It's very straight and to the point, where Zeus actually lies on a scale isn't known given he is made reference to, but he does not show up. 

"Terra bloodlusted is at least comparable to casual Ventus fully fused with Vanitas" Who can prove that. Ventus and Vanitas are both strong as fuck just by themselves and we haven't seen the two as complete.





> Yep.
> And they'd need to be able to injure him in some fashion to have won.
> Ergo, their level of power.


Dude what is your point?
You think I didn't play KH2? I slashed at his ass like everybody else its blatently obvious they injured him, they didn't call upon Captain planet.
Is this how you want to put it
"They are strong enough to hurt Xemnas".
In which case we just say "What is the minimum required to hurt Xemnas?" and so far I think we can say if you can destroy a sky scraper you can hurt Xemnas. Now how are we moving to Planet+....





> The number isn't relevant.  I use it to glean at how the OBD thought at a given point in time though.
> 
> How you fuckers used to attack a thread no longer really applies.  Too many contradictions and double standards (I'd say you fuckers were better technical debaters, but fuck if you didn't have a Gordian knot  of poor standards going that I had to dismantle over time).


You know why you are coming off really juvenile to me?
You're assuming my activity from 2006 on the OBD.
I have zero fucking clue if you started here Yesterday, 2013,2012,2011 or as your join date says 2010. I dont know if this is even your FIRST account.
At the same time, you don't know if I've even made 100 posts on the OBD out my thousands.

I'll save you the questioning though. "How you fuckers" doesn't stem a connection to me as I dont feel any connection to any year of OBD. You may judge the book by its cover if you want.






> >Sora and Riku survive Twilight Xemnas' magic in a cutscene driven attack sequence
> >Twilight Xemnas is stronger than the pair
> 
> Not too hard to connect the dots if you pull your head out of your ass and your dated standards.
> ...


Read what you said very carefully.
Step 1.
"Sora and Riku survive Xemnas attacks"
What you are trying to  establish - Xemnas attacks didnt kill them.
Step 2 " He is stronger than either one of them individually"
What you are trying to  establish - They cant 1v1 Xemnas.
Step 3
"Absorbed Kingdom hearts"
What you are trying to establish - His growth in power is from KH.
Step 4
"More powerful than Zeus, Zeus moved the stars"
What you are trying to establish - Zeus cannot beat him. Zeus can move stars and thats a big deal.

The problems here.
1&2 are obvious, 3 doesn't matter outside of a "backstory to why I am powerful" unless you say what the absorption specifically grants him. "Wait what!?" 
What I am saying that as for when we are talking about Twilight Xemnas, saying he absorbed KH doesn't matter as much as "What Twilight Xemnas is capable of" which is the detail that is actually important. Saying he absorbed KH is important when KH has an established set of powers it grants someone consistently.
For example, the Gems in Marvel? Mind gem & so forth? Those have established powers they often grant so saying "He has the mind stone" Starts conjuring "Well he can automatically do X, Y and Z right off the bat". I dont care if he absorbed KH, thats obvious.
What is absorbing KH doing about his attacks and his defense? Where is Xemnas planetary level+ via his KH absorption. You have not shown or said one thing towards this.

Given you haven't even shown that Xemnas outputs attacks on a planetary level or has durability on a planetary level. How are you going to show that Sora has planetary level or durability if Xemnas is what you are scaling him off of?
Full stop.






> You're ignoring what you're given.  Absorbing the power of an object that recreated 140 odd planets and being more powerful than the fucker that moved stars is really all that's needed (well, no, the absorption of kingdom hearts is all that's needed, but I digress)


Quite the opposite, I'm looking at EXACTLY what I'm given.
You're asking me to fantasize more then what I am given.
Kingdom hearts doesn't recreate planets.

Many worlds had their hearts taken, which means they are cast into the darkness and lost to the world of Light. Kingdom hearts isn't recreating them, its releasing them from the darkness.

This is said in Kingdom hearts. When the world is taken even the inhabitants are consumed, most of the time (some inhabitants end up in other worlds, like Traverse Town, or turn into gems that can be summoned).

By Sora's efforts in KH, the worlds were released from darkness into their Original state. This is why Radiant Garden is still very desolate, because before it was thrown into darkness it was ransacked by Maleficient.

So if the absoprtion of KH is all that is needed all I have to say back is "The absorption of Kingdom hearts only means as much as is seen and as much as is told". Going by what is seen, he isn't planetary level. Going by what is told its no different.

"Zeus moved stars and Xemnas is more powerful".
Well excuse me for starting my account in 2006, but 

1) How has KH shown you in any way that "moving the stars" is something you powerscale between characters?

After-all in Dragon ball I power scale Ki Blasts, because KI is the universal element they use.

2) How does this showcase itself as planetary destructive capability in a fight. Would Zeus drop the stars on Xemnas?

3) How does this destructive capability show itself or even IMPLY that its there in ANYTHING Twilight Xemnas did.

I can infer that Gohans higher destructive capability over Picollo's is there every time he throws a Kamehameha. Xemnas did a Sword Slash, and threw Sky scrapers. Now I am to ascertain that these are in any way comparable to the stars being moved.
"Nah man powerscaling Zeus did it so fucking Xemnas to be able to do it, because Xemnas and Zeus powers are based off X"....wait. There is no fucking established connection.
With DB its all Ki you just straight look "here is the technique, they can do different shit like Bind or destroy or blind someone...but G has vastly higher key then P and we know how Kamehameha compares against X technique and Z technique" Given this Kamehameha can bust a planet in G's hands.


"Yo man Spider-man flipped a train. Charles Xavier can flip the train with his Telepathy....wait. Well Fuck even though Charles Xavier is stronger the power doesn't fucking scale. Well obviously he can swing from webs because the power scales..."

This is ridiculous

Give me TWO things
1. A planetary+ attack or an attack where its at least known to be planetary+ power behind it so we can even start a talk about durability
2. A connection between the power set of _____ Character and ____ That shows I/we can apply/scale it between the two characters.

So im not trying to say Spider-man can shoot webs so Xavier can...


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 2, 2014)

It's not really fair to say that you have to prove that Zeus and Hades _aren't_ equal in strength.
IIRC Zeus is much more powerful than Hades in Greek mythology, since he is the "father of gods". 

This also carries over into the disney version. Hades always tried to screw with Zeus and Hercules, but he was never able to walk up to either of them and flat-out kick their asses. He always needed some manner of trickery to do damage. 

So there definitely is cause to say that there's a significant difference between Zeus and Hades. Whether that difference is big enough to make powerscaling invalid, I don't know; it's been a long time since I watched, so I don't remember exactly how much more powerful Zeus was portrayed


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 2, 2014)

Skimming your post briefly, I got from it more appeals to conservation of energy (try not to focus on the lack of collateral so much [the skyscrapers], or treating that as the cap on what they can accomplish... focus on refuting the energy of kingdom hearts and Zues chuckles), a rebuttal I can't really respond to regarding the functionality of kingdom hearts (given I'm not really a fan of the series and just working from shit I've been previously presented), a lack of understanding it takes KE (joules) to move fucking stars and that act requiring energy makes it a raw destructive power... just as powerscalable as any other form of magical attack in a given franchise (hint, energy as manipulated by the characters is kind of theirs to control and abuse in any fashion they see fit, be it TK or a generic ki cannon type attack)

Might actually read your post in detail later, but I can't be bothered to look too closely at the moment

Just posting this to let you know I saw your post more or less


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## Adamant soul (Aug 3, 2014)

Xemnas = skyscraper level 

That's like me saying if Superman threw a tennis ball at someone and it went straight through them that they have tennis ball level durability.  
No dude it's not the fact that the skyscrapers are bothering Xemnas, it's that they're being thrown at him by someone as strong as Sora that causes them to bother him.

Fucking Master Xehanort raising a cliff in Birth By Sleep alone shits on skyscraper level, a feat performed by someone outright inferior to Twilight Xemnas, never mind the Zeus star thing and absorbing Kingdom Hearts.


----------



## ensoriki (Aug 3, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> Xemnas = skyscraper level
> 
> That's like me saying if Superman threw a tennis ball at someone and it went straight through them that they have tennis ball level durability.
> No dude it's not the fact that the skyscrapers are bothering Xemnas, it's that they're being thrown at him by someone as strong as Sora that causes them to bother him.


Wrong. Its nothing like if you said Superman threw a tennis ball.
Superman's strength is established through years of development. It is nothing for you or I to quickly show that Supermans strength is far above human limits.

I say show me Xemnas is planet level+, Xemnas has zero feats of being Planet level + so the presumption is to power scale him off the stars being moved by another character. 
Or in other words, You can't show that Xemnas is planet level+ you have to bridge a connection between another event by another character to him to put him as planet level+ instead of being just "the dude throwing sky scrapers like rag dolls". Full stop.





> Fucking Master Xehanort raising a cliff in Birth By Sleep alone shits on skyscraper level, a feat performed by someone outright inferior to Twilight Xemnas, never mind the Zeus star thing and absorbing Kingdom Hearts.


Fullstop.
Tera > Master Xehanort.
Tera can't raise a cliff side.Being stronger someone doesn't mean you can do what they do.

However going even above that.
Let's talk "Skyscraper level".
KH 2 - Sora cuts sky scrapers thrown at him, and sky scrapers that are blocking his way.
KH DDD - Same thing.
KH 2 Twilight xemnas TK's skyscrapers
KH DDD - Xemnas TK's skyscrapers.
On a CONSISTENT level we know Xemnas can take a building, an entire flipping building the size of a sky scraper and TK it at Sora he can do this from a very far distance.

This is not planetary.
I am telling straight and to a point what Xemnas has done. You haven't disagreed that this is what he has done, nor have you shown anything that he has done above what I have said.

You say "Xehanort raised a cliffside" Which is impressive...great against people who cant jump off said cliff and for when you want to bungee jump. What Xemnas  does in KH2 is far more significant than creating a platform, significantly more measurable and certainly less argumentative...oh and it hurts.

What MX does to TVA's world is far more impressive as far as geographic destruction and even that doesn't translate to any measurable offensive feat.

Why dont you guys stop playing. You damn well know Sora isn't some planetary+ attacker or have planetary+ durability, neither is Xemnas.
Speed being equal Sora still hits hard enough to threaten DB characters but planetary+ you must be retarded.
Every character in KH so far shows their ability to destroy a world goes as far as its heart, not actually destroying the planet. Nor does any shown character output energy on an equivalent level to ever justify them getting Planet level by the OBD's own description of it.They dont have a spell, they dont have the physical strength, they dont have anything on that level.


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## Regicide (Aug 3, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> I say show me Xemnas is planet level+, Xemnas has zero feats of being Planet level + so the presumption is to power scale him off the stars being moved by another character.
> Or in other words, You can't show that Xemnas is planet level+ you have to bridge a connection between another event by another character to him to put him as planet level+ instead of being just "the dude throwing sky scrapers like rag dolls". Full stop.


That's how powerscaling works, yes.

And it works pretty well in this case, considering Twilight Xemnas is the strongest character in his verse.


ensoriki said:


> Being stronger someone doesn't mean you can do what they do.


No, but being stronger than someone does mean that you throw around comparable or superior levels of destructive power.


ensoriki said:


> You say "Xehanort raised a cliffside" Which is impressive...great against people who cant jump off said cliff and for when you want to bungee jump. What Xemnas  does in KH2 is far more significant than creating a platform, significantly more measurable and certainly less argumentative...oh and it hurts.


You actually can measure that.

The cliffs he raises have a mass and speed.


ensoriki said:


> Every character in KH so far shows their ability to destroy a world goes as far as its heart, not actually destroying the planet. Nor does any shown character output energy on an equivalent level to ever justify them getting Planet level by the OBD's own description of it.


The planets are unable to maintain their form without their hearts.

Kingdom Hearts can restore said planets and can therefore play around with that level of energy. The power of Kingdom Hearts is Xemnas' to command, and Sora and Riku defeat him.

Why is this difficult to grasp?


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 4, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Wrong. Its nothing like if you said Superman threw a tennis ball.
> Superman's strength is established through years of development. It is nothing for you or I to quickly show that Supermans strength is far above human limits.


Missing the point here. Whether or not superman's strength is established, the fact is that what he throws doesn't = how hard it is on impact. That's the main point here, is that you're downplaying without remembering the fact that the energy of an impact is Mass and speed - not just one of those things.



> I say show me Xemnas is planet level+, Xemnas has zero feats of being Planet level + so the presumption is to power scale him off the stars being moved by another character.
> Or in other words, You can't show that Xemnas is planet level+ you have to bridge a connection between another event by another character to him to put him as planet level+ instead of being just "the dude throwing sky scrapers like rag dolls". Full stop.


Which is fine. We bridge a connection between SSJ God Goku having close to or at the same level of power as bills to say he's solar system level, we allow for other DBZ characters to be scaled to piccolo blowing up the moon, and we scale a genin dodging a sand shuriken to the whole nardo cast.
That's the point of power-scaling.





> Fullstop.
> Tera > Master Xehanort.
> Tera can't raise a cliff side.Being stronger someone doesn't mean you can do what they do.


Going to ignore most of these points, but I might as well at least address this one.
Terra cannot raise a cliffside, this is technically correct.
However, Terra IS stronger than Xehanort.
Therefore, when he puts power into an attack, spell, etc., The amount of energy he can impart into that attack, spell, or etc. should be equivalent to the amount of power required to lift a cliffside.
That's how powerscaling works.




> However going even above that.
> Let's talk "Skyscraper level".
> KH 2 - Sora cuts sky scrapers thrown at him, and sky scrapers that are blocking his way.
> KH DDD - Same thing.
> ...


Consistency isn't the OBD standards. We go with the high-ends to ignore the large amounts of PIS. Otherwise Superman might be explosive missile level, or we might scale him to the one time in "batman and superman" that Joker knocks him out with a bat.




> You say "Xehanort raised a cliffside" Which is impressive...great against people who cant jump off said cliff and for when you want to bungee jump. What Xemnas  does in KH2 is far more significant than creating a platform, significantly more measurable and certainly less argumentative...oh and it hurts.


I'm not sure if you have thought of this or not... whether the cliff's coming from below you or not, having a large amount of rock smash into you at high speeds is going to be pretty significantly bad for your health.
Again, what matters is the fact that it's a large amount of rock being pushed upwards and that that can apply to energy of his attacks.




> What MX does to TVA's world is far more impressive as far as geographic destruction and even that doesn't translate to any measurable offensive feat.
> 
> Why dont you guys stop playing. You damn well know Sora isn't some planetary+ attacker or have planetary+ durability, neither is Xemnas.
> Speed being equal Sora still hits hard enough to threaten DB characters but planetary+ you must be retarded.
> Every character in KH so far shows their ability to destroy a world goes as far as its heart, not actually destroying the planet. Nor does any shown character output energy on an equivalent level to ever justify them getting Planet level by the OBD's own description of it.They dont have a spell, they dont have the physical strength, they dont have anything on that level.


I'm sure overcoming the world heart with either the gravity, magic, or pure energy to literally hold a planet together is easy.

But alright. Let's apply your logic that "we need to see Xemnas do things, we can't powerscale"
What if we apply it to other fictions?
Vegeta hasn't blown up a planet, so now we can't assume he does even though feats from weaker people clearly put him on that level.
Piccolo's light grenade isn't capable of hurting planetary opponents because it only destroyed a portion of an island.
When Krillin hurt sleeping SSJ goku by throwing a rock at him, because it is a rock we can infer Anime Goku has shit durability.(On that note, Large planet level krillin with rock? Can we make this happen?)
See where this has some obvious gaps in logic? Yeah, probably because it's bullshit. And right now you're using double standards to judge KH with this sort of ideology.


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## ensoriki (Aug 4, 2014)

How hard is reading. I didnt say you can't powerscale if you don't see something.
I said it very bluntly several times in multiple posts.

If you cannot show it, then you have to bridge a connection between the two characters to make an applicable feat.



> I'm sure overcoming the world heart with either the gravity, magic, or pure energy to literally hold a planet together is easy.


This is you literally saying "well I think he could do this".
You just fantasized a solution.


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## TheGloryXros (Aug 4, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> How hard is reading. I didnt say you can't powerscale if you don't see something.
> I said it very bluntly several times in multiple posts.
> 
> If you cannot show it, then you have to bridge a connection between the two characters to make an applicable feat.



...WHICH THEY ARE DOING...XEMNAS > ZEUS. Zeus moved those stellar bodies CASUALLY. Therefore, youre REALLY gonna say that someone like Xemnas, who's SUPERIOR TO ZEUS, cant put in AT LEAST the same amount of energy required for someone weaker than him to perform a feat that was done CASUALLY???

Honestly, its simple powerscaling here...And yes, sometimes the powerscaling doesnt work due to the uniqueness of some moves, but in this case it works fine, because like previously stated, Zeus moving those planets requires ENERGY. NO DUH. If he can put in that much energy to move some planets casually, and Xemnas is superior to him...well...???


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## Kazu (Aug 4, 2014)

Rather surprised this shitstorm isn't over DB but over KH 

Maybe that's because there aren't that many KH threads


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 4, 2014)

Go easy on the poor fucker now.  Not his fault he fails to grasp the correlation between TK and generic magic attacks are the same as a generic ki blast and kamehameha


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## BigIsaac (Aug 4, 2014)

Kazu said:


> Rather surprised this shitstorm isn't over DB but over KH
> 
> Maybe that's because there aren't that many KH threads




Maybe it's a DBZ fanboy who doesn't want Sora to get past the Cell saga?


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## Iwandesu (Aug 4, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Maybe it's a DBZ fanboy who doesn't want Sora to get past the Cell saga?


i bet my 20 cents that is the case


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## ensoriki (Aug 4, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> Maybe it's a DBZ fanboy who doesn't want Sora to get past the Cell saga?



Mmm playing every game in the series I totally hate KH.
Sounds to me more like a bunch of delusional twits who want to give Sora powers he doesnt have.
"he doesnt agree with me he must not like Kingdom hearts" more absolutely broken logic. From undoubtably children.




> ...WHICH THEY ARE DOING...XEMNAS > ZEUS. Zeus moved those stellar bodies CASUALLY. Therefore, youre REALLY gonna say that someone like Xemnas, who's SUPERIOR TO ZEUS, cant put in AT LEAST the same amount of energy required for someone weaker than him to perform a feat that was done CASUALLY???


HELL FUCKING YES.
Xemnas has absolutely zero fucking evidence that he outputs planetary level energy.
ZERO.
Your entire fucking comparison is a reference to Zeus.

The battledome literally gets dumber every year.

"Says Sora doesnt put out Planet level energy so he isn't a KH fan" is it mob mentality or just an inherit incapability to think.


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## Regicide (Aug 4, 2014)

>strongest character in his verse
>can't throw around destructive power comparable to a weaker character
>despite absorbing Kingdom Hearts which plays around with that level of energy anyways


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## AgentAAA (Aug 4, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> Mmm playing every game in the series I totally hate KH.
> Sounds to me more like a bunch of delusional twits who want to give Sora powers he doesnt have.
> "he doesnt agree with me he must not like Kingdom hearts" more absolutely broken logic. From undoubtably children.


They just said you're a dbz fanboy. Which might be true given you're using double-standards here, saying Zeus's planet-level+ TK shouldn't apply to someone stronger in-series, despite the same thing being used for a lot of Dragon Ball.





> HELL FUCKING YES.
> Xemnas has absolutely zero fucking evidence that he outputs planetary level energy.
> ZERO.
> Your entire fucking comparison is a reference to Zeus.


Zeus - planetary
Xemnas - more than zeus.
Done. Evidence.



> The battledome literally gets dumber every year.
> 
> "Says Sora doesnt put out Planet level energy so he isn't a KH fan" is it mob mentality or just an inherit incapability to think.



Don't think anyone called you not a KH fan, just surprised it's KH downplaying rather than the far-more-common-to- see DBZ downplaying(go back in the thread a few pages to see someone argue manga DB isn't planet-level.) and assumed you were a DBZ fan.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 4, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> HELL FUCKING YES.



So... what was that about juvenile again? 

Not that its an issue... we're all kind of on a forum that primarily panders to a fucking kid's show, so not particularly like any of us are stellar examples of maturity.

I just like pointing out the hypocrisy.

Between that an schadenfreude, I enjoy doing these the most.



> Xemnas has absolutely zero fucking evidence that he outputs planetary level energy.



Other than word of god stating he's the defacto most powerful and becoming the avatar of the most powerful magical object in the fucking series

Kingdom Hearts is his Warring Triad.  Twilight Xemnas is God Kefka after Kefka gorged on their power.



> Your entire fucking comparison is a reference to Zeus.



And absorbing/becoming the avatar of the most powerful magical object in universe... these things just fly over your head.


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## Regicide (Aug 4, 2014)

I think the problem is that he's suggesting Xemnas can't be scaled off of Zeus because.. energy expressed through telekinesis can't be powerscaled or something.

Which is clearly asinine.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 4, 2014)

ensoriki said:


> I love kh but can't accept the verse is that strong, thus he isn't. you are a bunch of immature children.


...


> HELL FUCKING YES.
> Xemnas has absolutely zero fucking evidence that he outputs planetary level energy.
> ZERO.
> Your entire fucking comparison is a reference to Zeus.


Except powerscaling from an weaker being TK's.(given by default due to Occam's razor)


> The battledome literally gets dumber every year.


Maybe, point being?


> "Says Sora doesnt put out Planet level energy so he isn't a KH fan" is it mob mentality or just an inherit incapability to think.


No one ever said you wasn't a kh fan.
>Vector prime was a SS fan.
>Reddan is a LOR fan.
This never stopped both to downplay the hell out of those verses.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 4, 2014)

It is asinine... given not even To Aru, which makes distinctions between psychic energy and magical energy, has issues powerscaling

There is no split between psychic/magic to start with (which wouldn't be an issue anyway)... on top of the fact that so long as it can be measured in joules, it can be thrown into whatever kind of destructive attack they please

It's not some foreign unmeasurable hax.

It's fucking kinetic energy


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## BigIsaac (Aug 4, 2014)

How about Golden Sun, where psychically lifting shit and setting shit on fire is done through the exact same energy form?


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## Regicide (Aug 4, 2014)

Same concept applies.

If characters can put psyenergy into pushing objects or what have you, they can put psyenergy into their attacks.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 4, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Same concept applies.
> 
> If characters can put psyenergy into pushing objects or what have you, they can put psyenergy into their attacks.




It's a good example for why these things don't have to be equal, though. Not necessarily, at least.
For example, offensive psynergy can call down lightning, make lava or rip gaping holes into the earth. Meanwhile the utility psynergy is significantly more limited; Move can only push an object about 1 meter at a time, hover can only make you float for about 5 meters without being over specific surfaces, etc
There's no reason the characters can't infuse those spells with the same power they put into their offensive ones, i.e. a guy who can cast Grand Gaia should be able to just pick up and carry that stupid stone pillar with the Move spell instead of having to push it around. And yet their effects are quite paltry by comparison to the offensive spells. 

Why is that? Perhaps the utility spells are just capped. Maybe the nature and mechanic of the technique puts a hard limit on the amount of energy you can infuse them with. It's like how, no matter how powerful you are, casting a bolt spell will always only result in, well, a bolt spell. It's never gonna be more than that, because that's just what the spell is. 

You could make the same argument with the KH stuff, too.
Zeus may be able to TK worlds around, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the offensive moves he knows have that same potential. Obviously you'd have to have specific cause to question this, which I don't think is the case here.

A good example of this is Solaris from Sonic 06. It's a reality buster, but its offensive moves suck petty hard. For direct offense, it's limited to just throwing rocks and shooting lasers. 
This neither means that Solaris isn't a god, nor that those lasers and rocks are galaxy level in DC; It just means that Solaris has some seriously shitty attacking moves. It's like a Mewtwo that only carries Confusion.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 4, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> It's a good example for why these things don't have to be equal, though. Not necessarily, at least.
> For example, offensive psynergy can call down lightning, make lava or rip gaping holes into the earth. Meanwhile the utility psynergy is significantly more limited; Move can only push an object about 1 meter at a time, hover can only make you float for about 5 meters without being over specific surfaces, etc
> There's no reason the characters can't infuse those spells with the same power they put into their offensive ones, i.e. a guy who can cast Grand Gaia should be able to just pick up and carry that stupid stone pillar with the Move spell instead of having to push it around. And yet their effects are quite paltry by comparison to the offensive spells.
> Why is that? Perhaps the utility spells are just capped. Maybe the nature and mechanic of the technique puts a hard limit on the amount of energy you can infuse them with. It's like how, no matter how powerful you are, casting a bolt spell will always only result in, well, a bolt spell. It's never gonna be more than that, because that's just what the spell is.


because game mechanics have specific use for specific spells.
you can't control the amount of energy you use in your average bolt spell in game because the producers didn't feel like letting you do so.
we have no reasons to assume sora can't control his own energy output and application.
is like saying pikachu's is unable to get pass through a 50cm root unless he  perform the movement cut to destroy it beforehand.



> You could make the same argument with the KH stuff, too.
> Zeus may be able to TK worlds around, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the offensive moves he knows have that same potential. Obviously you'd have to have specific cause to question this, which I don't think is the case here.
> A good example of this is Solaris from Sonic 06. It's a reality buster, but its offensive moves suck petty hard. For direct offense, it's limited to just throwing rocks and shooting lasers.
> This neither means that Solaris isn't a god, nor that those lasers and rocks are galaxy level in DC; It just means that Solaris has some seriously shitty attacking moves. It's like a Mewtwo that only carries Confusion.


solaris reality warping is hax, it doens't have joules on it and thus can't be converted in calcs.
telekines isn't hax and does have joules on it.
the weakest mewtwo has small island level dc (animu one) his tk feats are actually pretty impressive .(composite is arguably country level)


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## Light (Aug 4, 2014)

I thought Xemnas absorbed a fake Kingdom Hearts. A mostly destroyed one at that.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 4, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> because game mechanics have specific use for specific spells.
> you can't control the amount of energy you use in your average bolt spell in game because the producers didn't feel like letting you do so.
> we have no reasons to assume sora can't control his own energy output and application.
> is like saying pikachu's is unable to get pass through a 50cm root unless he  perform the movement cut to destroy it beforehand.




It's a consistent thing for a huge number of games, though, even for table top RPGs, where there's no reason you couldn't freely change the power of spells.

I think one possible explanation is that spells naturally evolve. As in, if you put enough energy into casting your Thunder spell, it will come out as a Thundara or Thundaga instead.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 4, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> It's a consistent thing for a huge number of games, though, even for table top RPGs, where there's no reason you couldn't freely change the power of spells.
> I think one possible explanation is that spells naturally evolve. As in, if you put enough energy into casting your Thunder spell, it will come out as a Thundara or Thundaga instead.


i honestly didn't get it now.
i'm pretty sure a level 30 bolt >> a level 20 one on rpg.
just like an eos kratos chain combo>>without red orbs kratos.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 4, 2014)

Light said:


> I thought Xemnas absorbed a fake Kingdom Hearts. A mostly destroyed one at that.



It was still a real kingdom hearts, he just helped it grow along. there's no such thing as a fake kingdom hearts.
It was damaged, though, that much is true, but the majority of it was still there.


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## Light (Aug 4, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> It was still a real kingdom hearts, he just helped it grow along. there's no such thing as a fake kingdom hearts.
> It was damaged, though, that much is true, but the majority of it was still there.



I dont understand. I thought Xemnas' plan was to create his own Kingdom Hearts using the hearts ofany Heartless. Pretty sure it wasn't there before. And considering that's the case, can you say it had the same power as the true Kingdom Hearts? Also, there was quite a bit missing when he absorbed it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 4, 2014)

Light said:


> I dont understand. I thought Xemnas' plan was to create his own Kingdom Hearts using the hearts ofany Heartless. Pretty sure it wasn't there before. And considering that's the case, can you say it had the same power as the true Kingdom Hearts? Also, there was quite a bit missing when he absorbed it.



No, you can summon/create kingdom hearts in 2 different ways

Through the hearts of people, or the hearts of worlds

Xemnas did it through people

Xehanort did it through worlds

Neither is inherently superior to the other, nor is that implied in the slightest from what I've been shown.  There is no lesser incarnation of kingdom hearts.

And the remaining volume was actually calculated to be pretty significant, something like at least 50% IIRC.

Makes sense, given how damn thin the exterior of a building has to be for a space to be 80% hollow and all for example.


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