# Tsukuyomi Challenge



## Cord (Aug 18, 2013)

Scenario: The victims in each respective scenarios are already caught inside Itachi's highest form of Genjutsu- Tsukuyomi. The purpose of this thread is to answer this question:

→ *Who among them are capable of defeating Tsukuyomi?*

1. Tskuyomi vs Tsunade

Given her reputation as the greatest medical nin in the Narutoverse, is she capable of breaking herself out of Tsukuyomi with her high level of intelligence and chakra control?


If Tsunade can't break herself out, but is able to resist it- will she still be able to fight back right after?

2. Tsukuyomi vs Hebi Sasuke


 Itachi traps his brother inside Tsukuyomi once again. But this time, with all intents of killing him. Will Hebi Sasuke still be able to overcome and dispel it like the way he did in canon? Without the Mangekyo Sharingan?

3. Tsukuyomi vs Kakashi


Will Kakashi be able to resist Tsukuyomi once again and break out of it now that he's awaken his own Mangekyo Sharingan- despite not having an Uchiha blood?

4. Tsukuyomi vs jinchūrikis


How effective is partner method against Tsukuyomi? Are bijūs capable of helping their respective jinchūrikis dispel the Genjutsu?

Keep in mind that this isn't about Itachi vs these characters, but only his Genjutsu is put to test.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 18, 2013)

1. Don't think Tsunade can break herself out. Tsunade did show the ability to heal after-effects of Tsukuyomi but only when other people are affected and she is in normal condition. With herself under genjutsu mindfuck I see her either passing out completely or be in a very terrible shape/barely consciousness. In that condition I don't think she can use advanced healing on herself - at least not fast enough.

2. Hebi Sasuke either passes out or ends like P1 Kakashi. Barely conscious and unable to fight. Orochimaru can jump out though. And get sealed again.

3. P1 Kakashi took Tsukuyomi like a boss but he also said that Itachi held back. Since then he got Mangekyo and improved his genjutsu skills tremendously(stalemating Obito). But with Itachi going all-out... Imo it would be either P1 shit-condition or a somewhat better condition(still shit) in which he can still put up a bit of a fight. Kakashi fares better than everyone else in this thread due to MS+solid genjutsu feats.

4. Hachibi was barely able to break B from Itachi's basic genjutsu in time. There is also KCM Naruto comment that both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu can end Jin Duo if connected. Tsukuyomi one-shots Naruto/B/Yagura imo. There is a possibility of Biju taking over an unconscious body with V2 or Full Form - but I don't personally think it is possible. It takes both parties to use said modes - even when Biju is out of control - they still force conscious Jin to act with their chakra + Akatsuki were beating Jins up to unconscious state and no Biji were shown to act when their host is in that state.


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## crisler (Aug 18, 2013)

If Itachi goes for kill I doubt any of them will survive, and even if they do they'll be incapable of fighting.

I only see Naruto and Hashirama as exceptions of what Itachi said: Only Uchiha MS users can defeat me (which he probably implied tsukuyomi)


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## Ersa (Aug 18, 2013)

Tsunade dies horribly, healing the coma =/= healing while Tsukiyomi gets you.

Hebi Sasuke either breaks it or gets mindfucked, depends if Itachi really held back. 50/50 here.

Same for Kakashi honestly.

Iffy on Perfect Jinns, depends if the Bijuu shares their perception of time with the host and what Naruto's comment on Tsukiyomi being a game-ender meant as he knew about the Bijuu dispelling genjutsu.


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

Tsukuyomi solos.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 18, 2013)

Tsunade fails. 

Sasuke breaks it like he did before.

Unsure about Kakashi now that he has the MS.

Perfect Jinchuriki break it; Bee did it already.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 18, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Scenario: The victims in each respective scenarios are already caught inside Itachi's highest form of Genjutsu- Tsukuyomi. The purpose of this thread is to answer this question:
> 
> → *Who among them are capable of defeating Tsukuyomi?*







> 1. Tskuyomi vs Tsunade
> 
> Given her reputation as the greatest medical nin in the Narutoverse, is she capable of breaking herself out of Tsukuyomi with her high level of intelligence and chakra control?
> 
> ...



I don't see her breaking it.

I believe that Tsukuyomi happens too quickly for active dispelling, so pinnacle of chakra control Genjutsu Kai and Katsuyu in her pocket method aren't likely to work. You need something passive, like the Sharingan. Unless the chakra from her seal made her systems so sporadic that it acted as a passive genjutsu defense she's going to suffer those effects.

I do think Tsunade's level of psychological endurance could make up for the lack of a not-yet-mastered Sharingan. So. . .she could maintain consciousness for a little bit afterwards, long enough to tap her hand to her head for a second and rid herself of the effects.



> 2. Tsukuyomi vs Hebi Sasuke
> 
> 
> Itachi traps his brother inside Tsukuyomi once again. But this time, with all intents of killing him. Will Hebi Sasuke still be able to overcome and dispel it like the way he did in canon? Without the Mangekyo Sharingan?



Well it was never stated that the Mangekyo was required to stop Tsukuyomi, only the Sharingan.

Iirc Itachi was accounting for Sasuke's growth throughout that fight, a Sasuke who unlike Kakashi has a good and healthy Uchiha body (these two in particular even share the same parents), so he could have hit Sasuke with the real deal and simply anticipated that he would have matured enough to break it.

It depends on how you see that, I suppose. He may or may not.



> 3. Tsukuyomi vs Kakashi
> 
> 
> Will Kakashi be able to resist Tsukuyomi once again and break out of it now that he's awaken his own Mangekyo Sharingan- despite not having an Uchiha blood?



If the Mangekyo affords any more resistance I think it would make up for Itachi holding back the first time.

He may be in a slightly better condition, but I don't see him breaking it and being in great shape afterwards.



> 4. Tsukuyomi vs jinchūrikis
> 
> 
> How effective is partner method against Tsukuyomi? Are bijūs capable of helping their respective jinchūrikis dispel the Genjutsu?



Iirc Naruto said it would be over if either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu hit.

Maybe the Biju can take over the host's body and continue fighting afterwards. . .would that count?


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke breaks it like he did before.


Itachi had no killing intent.



> Perfect Jinchuriki break it; Bee did it already.



Bee never did that.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

Tsunade probably can't break it but can heal herself and fight when it's over.

Sasuke breaks it because he did in canon. And to people who say Itachi held back and let him out, don't you think Sasuke knows if he was let out of the genjutsu or broke it?

Kakashi breaks it cause of MS. The blood thing is just basically saying MS as everyone only thought Uchiha's could get MS. It's not like the genjutsu can actually test you're DNA and say,"you're good, so here's the way out."

Naruto showed that when you go into a bijuu's conscience that time stops so when he's in Tsukiyomi, he enters there and stops tsukiyomi's time and breaks out.


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Tsunade probably can't break it but can heal herself and fight when it's over.


How the fuck she heals herself while being in coma?



> Sasuke breaks it because he did in canon. And to people who say Itachi held back and let him out, don't you think Sasuke knows if he was let out of the genjutsu or broke it?


Itachi can do much worse to Sasuke than just rip his eye off in Tsukuyomi. 


> *Kakashi breaks it cause of MS.* The blood thing is just basically saying MS as everyone only thought Uchiha's could get MS. It's not like the genjutsu can actually test you're DNA and say,"you're good, so here's the way out."


Just because you have a Sharingan doesn't mean you can break Tsukuyomi.


> Naruto showed that when you go into a bijuu's conscience that time stops so when he's in Tsukiyomi, he enters there and stops tsukiyomi's time and breaks out.



What the fuck?


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

> How the fuck she heals herself while being in coma?



She won't be in coma once she gets out or she could use byakugo


> Itachi can do much worse to Sasuke than just rip his eye off in Tsukuyomi


. 

What does this have to do with him breaking it 



> Just because you have a Sharingan doesn't mean you can break Tsukuyomi.


Sasuke demonstrated that possibility 



> What the fuck?



Time stops when a tailed beast and it's jinchurikki talk such as when naruto's clone talked to kurama despite madara's wood style right infront of him


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## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

saikyou said:


> How the fuck she heals herself while being in coma?



It took Kakashi time to go out. In that time Tsunade can heal herself.



> Itachi can do much worse to Sasuke than just rip his eye off in Tsukuyomi.



And? Didn't Sasuke break it because off the pain? So that would just make it quicker and better.



> Just because you have a Sharingan doesn't mean you can break Tsukuyomi.



I know. MS does though.



> What the fuck?



From one of my posts a while back


> Hosts can go to the bijuu's consciousness and get chakra there while it seems as no time has passed. The page where he enters, and the next three are where he comes out.
> enters
> enters
> enters
> ...


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 18, 2013)

Tsunade : Lol

Sasuke: EMS may have better resistance than 3-tome Sharingan, but we know Itachi holds back every time he uses Tsukuyomi, so it's a 50/50.

Kakashi: No Uchiha body, GG again

Bee: He is trapped in Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu for few seconds, I don't see Tsukuyomi can be broken easily.

Though Itachi can always attack their mental seriously in 1 second, so......


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## Cord (Aug 18, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Sasuke: EMS may have better resistance than 3-tome Sharingan, but we know Itachi holds back every time he uses Tsukuyomi, so it's a 50/50.



This is Hebi Sasuke. No EMS.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 18, 2013)

Oops, sorry for missing that. 

In canon, Sasuke finally breaks out but clearly Itachi is holding back. So I will say the result is similar to PTS Kakashi, when Sasuke has better resistance but Itachi takes seriously.


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> She won't be in coma once she gets out or she could use byakugo





IchLiebe said:


> It took Kakashi time to go out. In that time Tsunade can heal herself.


Kakashi has much better mental/psychological resistance/tolerance than Tsunade and he could barely talk after the Tsukuyomi.




> What does this have to do with him breaking it





> And? Didn't Sasuke break it because off the pain? So that would just make it quicker and better.


As Itachi said, Tsukuyomi's pain is real. It was much easier for Sasuke to resist Tsukyomi having "only" his eye ripped off. Imagine it like this: You suddenly receive pain like you just had your eye ripped off, you'd be in a shock but could still move, get help etc. Receive the pain of getting stabbed with multiple swords for three days? You wouldn't even be able to move from that amount of pain.



> Sasuke demonstrated that possibility





> I know. MS does though.



I want a panel where it states that having Mangekyo Sharingan automatically makes you able to break Tsukuyomi. Also Sasuke is more skilled with his Sharingan than Kakashi is. 




> Time stops when a tailed beast and it's jinchurikki talk such as when naruto's clone talked to kurama despite madara's wood style right infront of him



Are you saying that time freezes everytime Naruto talks to Kurama? 

Anyways, Naruto said that if you get hit by Tsukuyomi its over. Neither Kurama or Gyuuki corrected this.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Kakashi has much better mental/psychological resistance/tolerance than Tsunade and he could barely talk after the Tsukuyomi.



How?



> As Itachi said, Tsukuyomi's pain is real. It was much easier for Sasuke to resist Tsukyomi having "only" his eye ripped off. Imagine it like this: You suddenly receive pain like you just had your eye ripped off, you'd be in a shock but could still move, get help etc. Receive the pain of getting stabbed with multiple swords for three days? You wouldn't even be able to move from that amount of pain.



He broke out because he "overcame" the pain. How would that not happen here.




> I want a panel where it states that having Mangekyo Sharingan automatically makes you able to break Tsukuyomi. Also Sasuke is more skilled with his Sharingan than Kakashi is.



Tell me how it makes any sense that DNA will let you break out. He said that because no one knew a non-uchiha could get MS. A genjutsu can't tell what kind of DNA you have.



> Are you saying that time freezes everytime Naruto talks to Kurama?
> 
> Anyways, Naruto said that if you get hit by Tsukuyomi its over. Neither Kurama or Gyuuki corrected this.



Read my post and it shows you. 

Naruto said that before he and Kurama were friends.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

> Kakashi has much better mental/psychological resistance/tolerance than Tsunade and he could barely talk after the Tsukuyomi


.

Based on what? She believes strongly In the will of fire and even got over her fear of blood



> As Itachi said, Tsukuyomi's pain is real. It was much easier for Sasuke to resist Tsukyomi having "only" his eye ripped off. Imagine it like this: You suddenly receive pain like you just had your eye ripped off, you'd be in a shock but could still move, get help etc. Receive the pain of getting stabbed with multiple swords for three days? You wouldn't even be able to move from that amount of pain.



Getting your eye ripped out already hurts enough also this has nothing to do with breaking tsukuyomi a feat he already accomplished



> I want a panel where it states that having Mangekyo Sharingan automatically makes you able to break Tsukuyomi. Also Sasuke is more skilled with his Sharingan than Kakashi is.



It's sort of implied here fist bumps. meaning if kakashi is skilled enough(which he should be) he can beat him




> Are you saying that time freezes everytime Naruto talks to Kurama?
> 
> Anyways, Naruto said that if you get hit by Tsukuyomi its over. Neither Kurama or Gyuuki corrected this.



What does that have to do with  whether or not they can break it? Feats show they can and character statements can mean anything really plus he wasn't aware of the partner method


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> How?


Kakashi's father killed himself, best friend died, grew up in war and didn't have any traumas unlike Tsunade who was traumatized by death of Dan and Nawaki. 




> He broke out because he "overcame" the pain. How would that not happen here.



uhm as I said: stabbed for three days >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having eye ripped off. And Itachi can do even more than that.





> Tell me how it makes any sense that DNA will let you break out. He said that because no one knew a non-uchiha could get MS. A genjutsu can't tell what kind of DNA you have.


Sharingan works better/is more powerful in an Uchiha body.





> Read my post and it shows you.
> 
> Naruto said that before he and Kurama were friends.



I don't believe that time stops outside when Naruto enters his consciousness, events in there just happen almost instantly to outsiders. Things that happen in Naruto's head are more like memories. It is hard to explain.

So, Naruto is in Tsukuyomi and in there he manages to go inside his consciousness. What happens then?


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## Mayweather (Aug 18, 2013)

Tsunade dies.

Sasuke breaks it.

Kakashi dies.

50/50 on the Jinchuriki.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Kakashi's father killed himself, best friend died, grew up in war and didn't have any traumas unlike Tsunade who was traumatized by death of Dan and Nawaki.



 And? What does that have to do with experiencing physical pain.



> uhm as I said: stabbed for three days >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having eye ripped off. And Itachi can do even more than that.



SASUKE BROKE IT BECAUSE OF THE PAIN. MORE PAIN MAKES IT QUICKER.




> Sharingan works better/is more powerful in an Uchiha body.



Itachi flat out said Kakashi's body was good enough to use sharingan. 



> I don't believe that time stops outside when Naruto enters his consciousness, events in there just happen almost instantly to outsiders. Things that happen in Naruto's head are more like memories. It is hard to explain.
> 
> So, Naruto is in Tsukuyomi and in there he manages to go inside his consciousness. What happens then?



Time stops. He goes in there and has a conversation. It's not a memory or anything like it.

Naruto gets chakra and breaks out by partner method. Read my post earlier and it explains everything.


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> .
> Based on what? She believes strongly In the will of fire and even got over her fear of blood


Eh... Itachi said that only a skilled Sharingan user can break his Tsukuyomi. If you're skilled enough you still need to overcome the pain to be able to concentrate on breaking the genjutsu.

Will of Fire is powerless here. Even if WoF would work, Itachi's WoF >> Tsunade's. 

Just because Tsunade got over the fear of blood doesn't mean she has the mind of Ibiki motherfucking Morino.



> *Getting your eye ripped out already hurts enough* also this has nothing to do with breaking tsukuyomi a feat he already accomplished



So after experiencing the pain of eye getting ripped off, one can take anything now? It has everything to do with it.



> It's sort of implied here fist bumps. meaning if kakashi is skilled enough(which he should be) he can beat him



Except Kakashi isn't skilled enough. Or hasn't shown he is.




> *What does that have to do with  whether or not they can break it?* _Feats show they can_ and character statements can mean anything really plus he wasn't aware of the partner method


*Again, everything*

_No they don't_


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> And? What does that have to do with experiencing physical pain.


Physical pain also leaves mental pain. Also it doesn't have to be just physical. Itachi can show her Dan and Nawaki getting murdered while torturing her physically.




> SASUKE BROKE IT BECAUSE OF THE PAIN. MORE PAIN MAKES IT QUICKER.


What the fuck... This isn't Kurenai's or Tayuya's genjutsu that can be broken by inflicting pain.





> Itachi flat out said Kakashi's body was good enough to use sharingan.


Itachi said that Kakashi uses the Sharingan well, but he has no body of an Uchiha. 





> Naruto gets chakra and breaks out by partner method. Read my post earlier and it explains everything.


You cannot break the Tsukuyomi with partner method.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

> ]Eh... Itachi said that only a skilled Sharingan user can break his Tsukuyomi. If you're skilled enough you still need to overcome the pain to be able to concentrate on breaking the genjutsu.
> 
> Will of Fire is powerless here. Even if WoF would work, Itachi's WoF >> Tsunade's.
> 
> Just because Tsunade got over the fear of blood doesn't mean she has the mind of Ibiki motherfucking Morino.



She doesn't need to she can get over it no sweat and heal herself up and if all else fails her yin seal will do it for her





> So after experiencing the pain of eye getting ripped off, one can take anything now? It has everything to do with it.



No it doesn't I'm just saying you're overrating tsukuyomi's potential 




> Except Kakashi isn't skilled enough. Or hasn't shown he is.



He's had sharingan since he was a boy and he's even older than sasuke now he can even spam some kamui without any adverse side effect


> *Again, everything*
> 
> _No they don't_



Prove why it won't work... It seems like the perfect counter and a loop hole for it to work


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> She doesn't need to she can get over it no sweat and heal herself up and if all else fails her yin seal will do it for her


If only you had some basis for this.





> No it doesn't I'm just saying you're overrating tsukuyomi's potential


How am I overrating it when Itachi can do anything he wants in Tsukuyomi? 





> He's had sharingan since he was a boy and he's even older than sasuke now he can even spam some kamui without any adverse side effect


That is great and all, but, Sasuke is still more skilled.




> Prove why it won't work... It seems like the perfect counter and a loop hole for it to work



I'm not gonna read the whole manga for you. Read the other posts.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

> ]If only you had some basis for this.



I do it's her speech for madara 



> How am I overrating it when Itachi can do anything he wants in Tsukuyomi?


Tsukuyomi is like a dream and being in a dream doesn't make you god




> That is great and all, but, Sasuke is still more skilled


.



Based on what 



> I'm not gonna read the whole manga for you. Read the other posts.



Concession accepted


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## Cord (Aug 18, 2013)

*Tsukuyomi vs Hebi Sasuke*

In my honest opinion, I'm seeing that the result we'll have here isn't going to be any different from what exactly happened in canon- Sasuke breaking out from it once again is not impossible, even though he doesn't have the Mangekyo Sharingan. Combating Tsukuyomi and dispelling it requires an enormous amount of chakra and energy expenditure. Such is the perfect way to drain chakra and exhaust Sasuke ultimately. Several chapters later, Itachi's true intentions were revealed and pushing Sasuke to his limits to lure Orochimaru out of his body (to seal him) was all part of that. Intentionally weakening Tsukuyomi and going easy on Sasuke doesn't promote those goals.

Casting a *full power* Tsukuyomi on the other hand, is an excellent strategy to push Sasuke to his limits and at the same time, would require Itachi to spend more chakra and indirectly achieve yet another one of his goal- to die in front of his little brother. While Itachi never desired for Sasuke to go into another stupor in the aftermath of the Genjutsu and should Sasuke be unable to break out from it- such a state would've still rendered Orochimaru surfacing (the former Sannin exploiting the current situation where Sasuke is unable to provide resistance). Therefore, giving Itachi a good opportunity to accomplish his goals.

With that, it can be inferred that there would still be benefits, whether or not Sasuke is able to dispel Tsukuyomi. And as such leads me to believe that there was no reason for Itachi to inflict Tsukiyomi in a weakened state when there was never a need for it to be so.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> *Tsukuyomi vs Hebi Sasuke*
> 
> In my honest opinion, I'm seeing that the result we'll have here isn't going to be any different from what exactly happened in canon- Sasuke breaking out from it once again is not impossible, even though he doesn't have the Mangekyo Sharingan. Combating Tsukuyomi and dispelling it requires an enormous amount of chakra and energy expenditure. Such is the perfect way to drain chakra and exhaust Sasuke ultimately. Several chapters later, Itachi's true intentions were revealed and pushing Sasuke to his limits to lure Orochimaru out of his body (to seal him) was all part of that. Intentionally weakening Tsukuyomi and going easy on Sasuke doesn't promote those goals.
> 
> ...




Only itachi fans think itachi held back so much so no need to state the obvious into their minds


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I do it's her speech for madara


lel.



> Tsukuyomi is like a dream and being in a dream doesn't make you god


Tsukuyomi is very much real. Itachi controls space and time in Tsukyomi, he is pretty much a god in there.






> Based on what


Feats and hype.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 18, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Itachi had no killing intent.



That only means Susanoo wasn't used to attack Sasuke. Assuming anything else was held back is simply reaching.



> Bee never did that.



The relevant Mangekyou eye paired with the inverted panels and Bee being unable to move, say he did.


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## Kisame (Aug 18, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> 1. Tskuyomi vs Tsunade
> Given her reputation as the greatest medical nin in the Narutoverse, is she capable of breaking herself out of Tsukuyomi with her high level of intelligence and chakra control?


Chakra control and intelligence are irrelevant once you are caught in Tsukiyomi, for the effect is instantaneous.


> If Tsunade can't break herself out, but is able to resist it- will she still be able to fight back right after?


No.


> 2. Tsukuyomi vs Hebi Sasuke
> 
> 
> Itachi traps his brother inside Tsukuyomi once again. But this time, with all intents of killing him. Will Hebi Sasuke still be able to overcome and dispel it like the way he did in canon? Without the Mangekyo Sharingan?


I'm of the opinion that Tsukiyomi by principle is incapable of killing any relevant character with self-worth, as it destroys the psyche.

i.e if Itachi used Tsuiyomi on a random 10 year old kid then the kid might not withstand the mindfuck and die, while a relevant Shinobi would have the same response that Kakashi did.

I rate Tsukiyomi very highly, but Sasuke matches the criteria.




> 3. Tsukuyomi vs Kakashi
> 
> 
> Will Kakashi be able to resist Tsukuyomi once again and break out of it now that he's awaken his own Mangekyo Sharingan- despite not having an Uchiha blood?


I'm not sure on this one.


> 4. Tsukuyomi vs jinchūrikis
> 
> 
> How effective is partner method against Tsukuyomi? Are bijūs capable of helping their respective jinchūrikis dispel the Genjutsu?


There was a theory that Bijū-Jinchūriki conversation takes place in a timeless dimension, however...


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

> Munboy Dracule O'Brian;48195706]That only means Susanoo wasn't used to attack Sasuke.


For all we know Itachi was holding back in that fight. That Tsukyomi used by Itachi was pretty mild compared to his earlier ones.



> The relevant Mangekyou eye paired with the inverted panels and Bee being unable to move, say he did.



That was basically the same one Itachi used on Orochimaru, just a MS version.


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## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

> ]lel.



Concession accepted



> Tsukuyomi is very much real. Itachi controls space and time in Tsukyomi, he is pretty much a god in there.




Tsukuyomi is not real at all nor itachi god in anyway



> Feats and hype.



What feats put his sharingan above kakashi's?


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## Ghost (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Concession accepted



lel





> *Tsukuyomi is not real* at all nor itachi god in anyway



You can ask Kakashi and Sasuke. 



> What feats put his sharingan above kakashi's?


Sasuke's Amaterasu/Enton and Susano'o > Kakashi's Kamui. Sasuke's Sharingan usage against Danzo and Yoroi were impressive as well. 

Also Sasuke's eyes were said to be more potential than Itachi's. Sasuke's also been compared to Madara.


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## ueharakk (Aug 18, 2013)

1) Tsunade takes it worse than kakashi did, the only possibility would be if katsuya can heal her mental trauma by using tsunade's chakra.

2) Sasuke breaks it as per canon, I don't think it was implied that itachi held back on the tsukuyomi, and itachi suffered the worst side effects after the one he used against sasuke which would suggest it was his most powerful.

3) He should be able to do the same thing Hebi sasuke did.

4) Jinchuriki's dispel it.  Bijuus share the same perception that the jinks experience, that includes how their mind perceives time.  When naruto made that statement, he didn't know about the partner method as he wasn't friendly with kurama thus it wasn't an option for him.


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## Cord (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Only itachi fans think itachi held back so much so no need to state the obvious into their minds



I can understand them though, considering that Itachi himself stated that only someone with an Uchiha blood and Mangekyo Sharingan will be able to defeat him.

Now I'm quite unsure how much merit that statement still holds the moment Hebi Sasuke broke himself out of Tsukuyomi.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:
			
		

> Only itachi fans think itachi held back so much so no need to state the obvious into their minds



Yeah, why would anybody think that?



			
				viz said:
			
		

> *Sasuke:* He used the Mangekyo Sharingan on me. So...
> *Tobi:* Even your contingency plan*s* were part of his calculations.





Not to mention the common sense involved with Zetsu saying that Sasuke broke the genjutsu even though he had weaker eyes because he was more skilled... then it was made blatantly obvious after the fact that Itachi's much more skilled in genjutsu, as well as nearly all areas, and had stronger eyes at the time...


----------



## PinkiePool (Aug 18, 2013)

Pardon me for my ignorance once more but...how is Itachi's statement on who can and cannot break Tsukuyiomi an infallible  one again? It smells to me like that one claim Sauce did to Danzou (about only Uchiha being able to defeat Uchiha) to be honest


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 18, 2013)

Tsukiyomi soloes everyone per canon, anyone who says different is either bias(cough Munboy cough) or not so good at reading comprehension.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

PinkiePool said:


> Pardon me for my ignorance once more but...how is Itachi's statement on who can and cannot break Tsukuyiomi an infallible  one again? It smells to me like that one claim Sauce did to Danzou (about only Uchiha being able to defeat Uchiha) to be honest



There's no time for foreign chakra to travel and shock the victim out of the illusion. That's the sole characteristic and benefit of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Dōjutsu resistance is the only available defense.

The databook, Itachi, Kakashi, Naruto, Zetsu, and every comment on the jutsu indicates that the partner method, in any incarnation, won't cut it, because the jutsu begins and ends in an instant. 



So like Shark said, if Sasuke were actually capable of Tsukuyomi, then the 72 hours would have already been completed long before he hit the floor and realized he couldn't move. It's over in a snap.

As for dōjutsu resistance, Zetsu's statement indicates that the two factors are eye-level and skill. Current Sasuke and Madara have an advantage in power, so they can break it.

Kakashi, Shisui, Izuna, and pre-Rinnegan Obito all have roughly equal eye-power, but only Shisui likely has comparable genjutsu skill to Itachi. So the others would likely resist it, but not completely.

Hebi Sasuke and part one Kakashi have inferior dōjutsu and inferior skill, so they're out. Kakashi was instantly crippled and fell into a coma, and he knew Itachi was holding back his Tsukuyomi.

Nagato is a special case, as he didn't have full access to Madara's Rinnegan, which entails the Sharingan's power. The databook says the Sharingan is what provides resistance, so he's a toss-up. Imo.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

As for Tsunade, I think she has a much more delicate psyche than body, and you can't heal emotional trauma. For instance, she restored consciousness to Sasuke, but he was far from okay.

Itachi's genjutsu can access painful memories, as he showed with Naruto, so showing Tsunade gruesome scenarios involving Dan & her brother for 72 hours would do _a lot_ more than give her hemophobia.

I think she'd be shattered by Tsukuyomi.​


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

lel







> You can ask Kakashi and Sasuke.


they werent traumatized by tsukuyomi



> Sasuke's Amaterasu/Enton and Susano'o > Kakashi's Kamui. Sasuke's Sharingan usage against Danzo and Yoroi were impressive as well.


this has nothing to do with experience just cause enton >kamui doesnt make sasuke a better sharing gan user kakashi copied 1000 jutsu by hype and sasuke copied one kick


> Also Sasuke's eyes were said to be more potential than Itachi's. *Sasuke's also been compared to Madara.
> *



scans or didnt happen


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> As for Tsunade, I think she has a much more delicate psyche than body, and you can't heal emotional trauma. For instance, she restored consciousness to Sasuke, but he was far from okay.
> 
> Itachi's genjutsu can access painful memories, as he showed with Naruto, so showing Tsunade gruesome scenarios involving Dan & her brother for 72 hours would do _a lot_ more than give her hemophobia.
> 
> I think she'd be shattered by Tsukuyomi.​



wasnt naruto fine right after he broke out


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> wasnt naruto fine right after he broke out



He was  and  after a second of Itachi playing on past emotional trauma. So multiply that by 259,200 for Tsukuyomi. Plus I don't think Tsunade is as resilient as Naruto in that way either.​


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He was crying and sweating after a second. So multiply that by 259,200.



yeah but once he broke out what happened


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> yeah but once he broke out what happened



He basically stood around, , until Sakura slapped him.

And again, that was 0.0003861% of what would be dished out in Tsukuyomi.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> As for Tsunade, I think she has a much more delicate psyche than body, and you can't heal emotional trauma. For instance, she restored consciousness to Sasuke, but he was far from okay.​



Kakashi was okay iirc. And Sasuke was being bothered by the persisting gap in power, itachi's taking more interest in Naruto than Sasuke himself, and finally Naruto's own rapid growth as opposed to Tsukuyomi's effects.



> Itachi's genjutsu can access painful memories, as he showed with Naruto, so showing Tsunade gruesome scenarios involving Dan & her brother for 72 hours would do _a lot_ more than give her hemophobia.​



I've always interpreted that this was because Zetsu witnessed the fight between Naruto and Sasuke at the Valley of The End and let the reason for the fight slip in his report on Naruto's Jinchuriki abilities. Not because Itachi's genjutsu automatically searches out and digs up painful memories. We didn't see Rin or Obito in Tsukuyomi when Kakashi was hit with it.

Kabuto, despite apparently having heard a lot of Tsunade, wasn't aware of her hemophobia or the loss of her younger brother followed by her lover until Orochimaru brought it up, and Shizune only said he knew about that because he was another of the prodigal three. So, I'm not so confident Itachi would be aware of it either.


----------



## Mithos (Aug 18, 2013)

alex payne said:


> 1. Don't think Tsunade can break herself out. Tsunade did show the ability to heal after-effects of Tsukuyomi but only when other people are affected and she is in normal condition. With herself under genjutsu mindfuck I see her either passing out completely or be in a very terrible shape/barely consciousness. In that condition I don't think she can use advanced healing on herself - at least not fast enough.



I agree. 

However if she has Byakugou activated before she gets caught by Tsukuyomi, I think she would be fine. The mental damage would be healed automatically - and if her normal medical ninjutsu can heal it, Byakugou should be able to do so.



Strategoob said:


> As for Tsunade, I think she has a much more delicate psyche than body, and you can't heal emotional trauma. For instance, she restored consciousness to Sasuke, but he was far from okay.
> 
> Itachi's genjutsu can access painful memories, as he showed with Naruto, so showing Tsunade gruesome scenarios involving Dan & her brother for 72 hours would do _a lot_ more than give her hemophobia.
> 
> I think she'd be shattered by Tsukuyomi.​



If this was before she overcame her fear of blood, I think you'd be right. But part of getting over her hemophobia is that she has moved on and isn't haunted by Dan and Nawaki's deaths anymore. 

I don't see, apart from her past which has overcome, how you see Tsunade as having a 'delicate psyche.'


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Scenario: The victims in each respective scenarios are already caught inside Itachi's highest form of Genjutsu- Tsukuyomi. The purpose of this thread is to answer this question:
> 
> → *Who among them are capable of defeating Tsukuyomi?*
> 
> ...



1) She can't break out, but she could likely heal herself afterwards.  
2) Probably not.  Itachi let him out of that technique imo.
3) Kakashi has the MS, so he will be fine.
4) It would break early, but Idk if that is sufficient to cause damage.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> 1) She can't break out, but she could likely heal herself afterwards.
> 2) Probably not.  Itachi let him out of that technique imo.
> 3) Kakashi has the MS, so he will be fine.
> 4) It would break early, but Idk if that is sufficient to cause damage.



no itachi didt let him out 

he broke out  you can tell by his suprise here


----------



## narutoish (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> no itachi didt let him out
> 
> he broke out  you can tell by his suprise here



To be honest, Sasuke seems just as surprised..


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

narutoish said:


> To be honest, Sasuke seems just as surprised..



thats cause he was about to get his eye ripped out had he not broken it

bottom line itachi was testing sasuke's limits he didnt hold back at all


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> thats cause he was about to get his eye ripped out had he not broken it
> 
> bottom line itachi was testing sasuke's limits he didnt hold back at all



He let him out dude.  Sasuke was practically dumbfounded when he got out.
He very well couldn't postpone the duel until Sasuke got the MS, so he let him out.


----------



## Saru (Aug 18, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> 1. Tskuyomi vs Tsunade
> 
> Given her reputation as the greatest medical nin in the Narutoverse, is she capable of breaking herself out of Tsukuyomi with her high level of intelligence and chakra control?
> 
> If Tsunade can't break herself out, but is able to resist it- will she still be able to fight back right after?



I honestly feel like although Tsunade could survive Tsukuyomi if she was hit by it (though rendered  weakened and helpless afterwards), she cannot actually break the genjutsu without Katsuyu's aid. So the answer to both of those questions is no.



> 2. Tsukuyomi vs Hebi Sasuke
> 
> 
> Itachi traps his brother inside Tsukuyomi once again. But this time, with all intents of killing him. Will Hebi Sasuke still be able to overcome and dispel it like the way he did in canon? Without the Mangekyo Sharingan?



Itachi was heavily implied to have held back on the Tsukuyomi Sasuke broke. Not only was Itachi implied to have held back, he was implied to have spared Sasuke's life. Since genjutsu is Itachi's forte, Sasuke would logically  unable to break a true Tsukuyomi. 



> 3. Tsukuyomi vs Kakashi
> 
> 
> Will Kakashi be able to resist Tsukuyomi once again and break out of it now that he's awaken his own Mangekyo Sharingan- despite not having an Uchiha blood?



Sasuke was impressed by Kakashi's awakening of the Mangekyou in a non-Uchiha body. However, I'm going to go with "no" purely based on Itachi's words and Kakashi's lack of Uchiha blood.



> 4. Tsukuyomi vs jinchūrikis
> 
> 
> How effective is partner method against Tsukuyomi? Are bijūs capable of helping their respective jinchūrikis dispel the Genjutsu?



It isn't effective. Getting caught in Tsukuyomi is just as deadly as getting caught in the flames of Amaterasu without Kawarimi no Jutsu. The bijuus would be unable to help them.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> He let him out dude.  Sasuke was practically dumbfounded when he got out.
> He very well couldn't postpone the duel until Sasuke got the MS, so he let him out.



he was not dumbfounded at all

he stated right after "ill counter your eyes with my hatred"

he knew hwat had happened


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> I don't see, apart from her past which has overcome, how you see Tsunade as having a 'delicate psyche.'



Do you really not think Tsunade has some serious emotional and psychological problems? Her entire personality indicates as much to me, personally. She's a loose cannon.​


TensaXZangetsu said:


> you can tell by his suprise here



Itachi was also "surprised" when Sasuke didn't have his body burned up by Amaterasu. The whole point of the fight was deception, and part of that is acting surprised when ultimate jutsu "fail."​


FlamingRain said:


> I've always interpreted that this was because Zetsu witnessed the fight between Naruto and Sasuke at the Valley of The End and let the reason for the fight slip in his report on Naruto's Jinchuriki abilities. Not because Itachi's genjutsu automatically searches out and digs up painful memories. We didn't see Rin or Obito in Tsukuyomi when Kakashi was hit with it.



It's possible. Sasuke was in CS2 though, which Itachi never saw, and the intimate nature of what people said in the genjutsu suggests to me that it's more likely that the genjutsu does dig stuff up.​


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> he was not dumbfounded at all
> 
> he stated right after "ill counter your eyes with my hatred"
> 
> he knew hwat had happened



That is called talking shit.  
If anything it further proves the point.

Everything up to that point suggested that you needed the MS to break out.
Furthermore, Itachi is probably the best genjutsu shinobi in the narutoverse.


Regardless, both are possible to some extent, so this argument is pointless.
We will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> That is called talking shit.
> If anything it further proves the point.
> 
> Everything up to that point suggested that you needed the MS to break out.
> ...



how was he talking shit? He was confident in his abilities and rightfully so...plus he took the effects of tsukuyomi twice before

none of that means anything

sasuke was skilled enough so he broke out

itachi was testing him with his full power and you cannot provide any evidence of tsukuyomi being weakened


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Let me reiterate that for you, 

I don't know how I got out, must be because I am pissed.


And you can't provide evidence he used his full capabilities.
We can only Agree to disagree.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Do you really not think Tsunade has some serious emotional and psychological problems? Her entire personality indicates as much to me, personally. She's a loose cannon.​
> 
> 
> Itachi was also "surprised" when Sasuke didn't have his body burned up by Amaterasu. The whole point of the fight was deception, and part of that is acting surprised when ultimate jutsu "fail."​
> ...


he wasnt acting he was taken by surprise 
why cant u just accept itachi lost that one


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> Let me reiterate that for you,
> 
> I don't know how I got out, must be because I am pissed.
> 
> ...



or just determined

also what would be your idea of itachi's "full tsukuyomi"


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

What happened to kakashi.  That was a terribly weak traumatic event he was playing in Sasuke's mind.
Also, not letting him out.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> What happened to kakashi.  That was a terribly weak traumatic event he was playing in Sasuke's mind.
> Also, not letting him out.



i'd rather get stabbed in the stomach than have eyes gouged out

thats for sure

and u can't prove itachi let sasuke out u can tell because the genjutsu split in half


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> i'd rather get stabbed in the stomach than have eyes gouged out



Sure, but would you rather be stabbed in the stomach, and almost certainly everywhere else, repeatedly for 72 hours or have on eye plucked out? Because that's the difference.​


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> i'd rather get stabbed in the stomach than have eyes gouged out
> 
> thats for sure
> 
> and u can't prove itachi let sasuke out u can tell because the genjutsu split in half


Actually, stabbed all over millions of times, or poked in the eye would be a far more accurate assessment.

And again, you can't prove he didn't let him out.

We can say this 100x over, but it won't make any difference.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> he wasnt acting he was taken by surprise
> why cant u just accept itachi lost that one



1. Why can't Strategoob accept it?

A. Because Obito said twice that Itachi planned out every aspect of the fight.
B. Because Zetsu's explanation was misguided―Itachi was more skilled.
C. Because Strat has a sex doll that he taped  printed out picture to.
D. All of the above.


*Spoiler*: _Answer Key_ 



1. D


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> Actually, stabbed all over millions of times, or poked in the eye would be a far more accurate assessment.
> 
> And again, you can't prove he didn't let him out.
> 
> We can say this 100x over, but it won't make any difference.



he didnt get poked in the eye he got it ripped out 

and the burden of proof is on you not me


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

> A. Because Obito said twice that Itachi planned out every aspect of the fight.


that could mean anything.. he couldve known how strong sasuke was at the time and knew that he could do it


> B. Because Zetsu's explanation was misguided―Itachi was more skilled.


your personal opinion means nothing


> C. Because Strat has a sex doll that he taped a print-out of Itachi's face too.


not my problem


> D. All of the above.



good for you


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> he didnt get poked in the eye he got it ripped out
> 
> and the burden of proof is on you not me


It isn't clearly stated either way, so it is on both of us.

We have given a page full of evidence.  
Your evidence seems to be what again?


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> your personal opinion means nothing



It's not an opinion. It's a fact spelled out by the cold hard data in the databook.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

Look at it this way. Sasuke has seen Tsukiyomi twice. He's a great genjutsu user. He never said anything about Tsukiyomi being weaker, or him being let out. And I'm sure someone can tell if they were let out of the genjutsu. And I'm sure after 3x he would know if it was weaker than the other times. Yet we never seen Sasuke think about, doubt it, or outright call bullshit, so we can only say that it was a full powered Tsukiyomi that Sasuke broke.

The scan's never say Itachi held back. Look at what Suasuke says in two different scans. Now look at what Obito says in the two scans. Sasuke says(paraphrased),"he used his MS jutsu and tried to kill me" and then Obito says,"You did exactly what he predicted." Now what does that mean. That Itachi knew Sasuke could break Tsukiyomi and escape Amaterasu. Nothing about Itachi holding back. 

Now let's look at the first scan again. Tobi hints that Itachi held back by saying,"if he was serious, you wouldn't be here." And that's true. Itachi had Susanoo left when Sasuke had nothing. Itachi could have killed him there but held back and didn't. Nothing states Itachi held back his jutsu's. It only says Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke and the next page Obito says Itachi knew Sasuke could get out of Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu so there's no reason to say Itachi weakened them if he predicted that Sasuke could get through them now is there.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

Alright, IchLiebe. First, this:



Has an implication. Secondly, Obito's response to that in the viz is:



> Sasuke: It's nonsense. He tried to kill me over and over.
> Tobi: If Itachi had really wanted to kill you .... you would most most certainly be dead.
> Sasuke: *He used the Mangekyo Sharingan on me. So...
> Tobi: Even your contingency plans were part of his calculations.*



Which should make the implication very clear. Taking that in stride with what Zetsu said when Sasuke broke the illusion, or that the only way it made sense is that Sasuke was so much more skilled with the Sharingan that it worked...

And the blatant databook-driven face that Sasuke was less skilled than Itachi in just about everything... not to mention Danzō saying Itachi was like heaven above earth compared to Sasuke's skill in that particular area. Come on.

Plus just plain ol' common sense: Itachi wanted to lose. Ergo, he would never be surprised that Tsukuyomi failed. So that leaves only the possibility that he knew Sasuke could overcome the difference between their eyes with raw skill. 

Which is wrong. Even hundreds of chapters later, people still think Itachi's the more skilled brother, albeit the less powerful one.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It's not an opinion. It's a fact spelled out by the cold hard data in the databook.



its also stated in the databook that he overcame tsukuyomi


----------



## Mithos (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Do you really not think Tsunade has some serious emotional and psychological problems? Her entire personality indicates as much to me, personally. She's a loose cannon.​



I don't think her impatience and temper are enough to claim she has a 'delicate pysche.' 

In fact, Tsunade has shown incredible will-power. She willed herself to overcome a crippling phobia; she willed herself to stay conscious to summon Katsuyu and save the other Gokage after having been cut in half. 

I'm not saying her mental fortitude is impenetrable by any means, but I think she is, mentally, one of the stronger characters in the series. 

If she has Byakugou active before, she should be mostly okay. If she doesn't and Katsuyu is there, Katsuyu should be able to protect her and use Tsunade's chakra to heal the mental trauma. If neither of those are there prior, well then Tsunade is probably going to be in pretty bad shape.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Alright, IchLiebe. First, this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That takes exactly nothing away from what I said. Itachi took into account what Sasuke would and could do. Exactly what I said. It doesn't say he held back anything except killing intent. Which means we he could have killed Sasuke he didn't. Nothing about him holding back his jutsu's.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Plus just plain ol' common sense: Itachi wanted to lose. Ergo, he would never be surprised that Tsukuyomi failed. So that leaves only the possibility that he knew Sasuke could overcome the difference between their eyes with raw skill.



Read the manga. Itachi pushed Sasuke to the brink. He didn't want to lose until he dealt with Orochimaru. So no reason to hold back until after Orochimaru was beat which was...take a guess. THE END OF THE FIGHT.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Read the manga. Itachi pushed Sasuke to the brink. He didn't want to lose until he dealt with Orochimaru. *So no reason to hold back until after Orochimaru was beat* which was...take a guess. THE END OF THE FIGHT.



Are you serious?


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Read the manga. Itachi pushed Sasuke to the brink. He didn't want to lose until he dealt with Orochimaru. So no reason to hold back until after Orochimaru was beat which was...take a guess. THE END OF THE FIGHT.



Beating Sasuke in genjutsu wouldn't be pushing him at all.  It would be ending the fight instantly with Sasuke at near full chakra.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> Beating Sasuke in genjutsu wouldn't be pushing him at all.  It would be ending the fight instantly with Sasuke at near full chakra.



It could make Sasuke lose control and make Orochimaru come out.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

The only thing that makes Orochimaru come out is for Sasuke to exhaust every ounce of chakra he has, thus having nothing left to keep Orochimaru subdued.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> The only thing that makes Orochimaru come out is for Sasuke to exhaust every ounce of chakra he has, thus having nothing left to keep Orochimaru subdued.



Nothing states that unless you have a scan I haven't seen. Orochimaru only needed to overpower him. After tsukiyomi's effects Sasuke would be having trouble to hold Orochimaru back because he would be fucked up. Again, nothing states Itachi held back on Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> The only thing that makes Orochimaru come out is for Sasuke to exhaust every ounce of chakra he has, thus having nothing left to keep Orochimaru subdued.



it would take a lot of chakra to break a genjutsu that advanced


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Are you serious?



Dead serious. Prove he held back. You're using substantial evidence and twisting words. Get something concrete and get back to me. Until then Hebi Sasuke can break a full powered Tsukiyomi.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> it would take a lot of chakra to break a genjutsu that advanced



When has this ever been stated?
It proves nothing regardless.



IchLiebe said:


> Dead serious. Prove he held back. You're using substantial evidence and twisting words. Get something concrete and get back to me. Until then Hebi Sasuke can break a full powered Tsukiyomi.



That is merely your opinion.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> When has this ever been stated?
> It proves nothing regardless.
> 
> 
> ...



My opinion? I posted exactly what the scan says. "he used MS jutsu and tried to kill me." and then,"you did exactly what he predicted." And the viz scan says basically the same thing. So all we know and can say is that Itachi thought Sasuke would get out of tsukiyomi and amaterasu.

Prove me wrong. You're new so I'll tell you right now. You're going to have to get scans or you're post mean little to nothing. I can say something all I want but without proof or evidence then it's nothing. So when you find a scan that says Itachi held back tsukiyomi or EVEN HINTS that he did, post it here.


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> My opinion? I posted exactly what the scan says. "he used MS jutsu and tried to kill me." and then,"you did exactly what he predicted." And the viz scan says basically the same thing. So all we know and can say is that Itachi thought Sasuke would get out of tsukiyomi and amaterasu.
> 
> Prove me wrong. You're new so I'll tell you right now. You're going to have to get scans or you're post mean little to nothing. I can say something all I want but without proof or evidence then it's nothing. So when you find a scan that says Itachi held back tsukiyomi or EVEN HINTS that he did, post it here.



The scans are already posted.  Your interpretation of said panels, and all the other evidence provided is what makes it your opinion.  Context!

I said it from the beginning, this is just opinion v/s opinion.  Either interpretation is possible, thus neither of us can win.  Agree to disagree!


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> The only thing that makes Orochimaru come out is for Sasuke to exhaust every ounce of chakra he has, thus having nothing left to keep Orochimaru subdued.



 Sasuke could've held back Orochimaru, but Sasuke knew there was no possible way to defeat Itachi without any chakra.

 In other words, pushing him to the edge makes it easier for Orochimaru to overpower his mind due to not having enough power to kill Itachi.

 Also, Sasuke seemed quite gassed out from breaking out of Tsyukyomi. 
*couple of kilometers worth of earth.*


----------



## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke could've held back Orochimaru, but Sasuke knew there was no possible way to defeat Itachi without any chakra.
> 
> In other words, pushing him to the edge makes it easier for Orochimaru to overpower his mind due to not having enough power to kill Itachi.



I wouldn't agree with that interpretation at all.
That seems like a huge stretch, but I guess it is possible.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> The scans are already posted.  Your interpretation of said panels, and all the other evidence provided is what makes it your opinion.  Context!
> 
> I said it from the beginning, this is just opinion v/s opinion.  Either interpretation is possible, thus neither of us can win.  Agree to disagree!



There's only ONE way to interpret them. And that's exactly how it says. Itachi predicted Sasuke could get through his MS jutsu's. And if Itachi hadn't held back Sasuke would be dead, and that holds true even if Sasuke got through all of Itachi's shit till susanoo which is what happened. You're cherry picking and twisting to get what you want.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> There's only ONE way to interpret them. And that's exactly how it says. Itachi predicted Sasuke could get through his MS jutsu's. And if Itachi hadn't held back Sasuke would be dead, and that holds true even if Sasuke got through all of Itachi's shit till susanoo which is what happened. You're cherry picking and twisting to get what you want.



It is called context.
Your interpretation isn't superior, sorry.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

I don't know about Itachi expecting him to break out of Tsukyomi though.

*couple of kilometers worth of earth.*


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## Santoryu (Aug 19, 2013)

> 1. Tskuyomi vs Tsunade
> 
> Given her reputation as the greatest medical nin in the Narutoverse, is she capable of breaking herself out of Tsukuyomi with her high level of intelligence and chakra control?




P1 Kakashi also had high-level of intelligence, plus a Sharingan; Tsunade dies.



> [*]If Tsunade can't break herself out, but is able to resist it- will she still be able to fight back right after?




if by some miracle she broke it, she'd be in worse shape that part 1 kakashi.


> 2. Tsukuyomi vs Hebi Sasuke
> 
> 
> Itachi traps his brother inside Tsukuyomi once again. But this time, with all intents of killing him. Will Hebi Sasuke still be able to overcome and dispel it like the way he did in canon? Without the Mangekyo Sharingan?


It'd be close...personally I'm leaning towards Sasuke breaking out of it, but I'm not sure.



> 3. Tsukuyomi vs Kakashi
> 
> 
> Will Kakashi be able to resist Tsukuyomi once again and break out of it now that he's awaken his own Mangekyo Sharingan- despite not having an Uchiha blood?



Kakashi would break out of. Bringing up *nonsense *like "he lacks a Uchiha body" etc is comical; it defies Uchiha logic that Kakashi can use the regular Sharingan to such an extent, never mind the MS, Itachi was astonished when Kakashi implied he had awakened it, but the MS in his arsenal is not the only thing, we've recently seen that Kakashi's Sharingan-genjutsu prowess was potent enough to stalemate Obito, the same Obito who manipulated the Kyuubi/Kage-level characters with ease.



> 4. Tsukuyomi vs jinchūrikis
> 
> 
> How effective is partner method against Tsukuyomi? Are bijūs capable of helping their respective jinchūrikis dispel the Genjutsu?
> ...


[/QUOTE]

They should be able to help to some extent, even if they did break out of it, they'd be exhausted I'd imagine.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Aug 19, 2013)

crisler said:


> If Itachi goes for kill I doubt any of them will survive, and even if they do they'll be incapable of fighting.
> 
> I only see Naruto and Hashirama as exceptions of what Itachi said: Only Uchiha MS users can defeat me (which he probably implied tsukuyomi)



Tsukiyomi doesn't kill. 

Itachi was mocking Kakashi for not being an Uchiha or having MS.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 19, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Dead serious. Prove he held back. You're using substantial evidence and twisting words. Get something concrete and get back to me.



Substandard? Circumstantial?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 20, 2013)

saikyou said:


> For all we know Itachi was holding back in that fight. That Tsukyomi used by Itachi was pretty mild compared to his earlier ones.



You're speculating. All we're told is Sasuke didn't feel Itachi's full wrath and Itachi didn't use his strongest jutsu to touch Sasuke. As such the logical inference is that only Susanoo was held back, nothing else. 



> That was basically the same one Itachi used on Orochimaru, just a MS version.



Except it had the relevant MS eye with inverted panels. Followed by Sasuke holding his eye upon the illusion's failure... just like Itachi.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 21, 2013)

We can surmise Itachi can control the lethality of Tsukiyomi because he has done so in the past.

His first one against Sasuke was never stated to dilate time 

And did not harm Genin Sasuke at all. He actually got up and ran away after as you can see.

His second Tsukiyomi against Kakashi lasted 3 days.

and put Jonin Kakashi in a coma that he needed Tsunade's healing to wake from. Kakashi was able to talk before collapsing.

Itachi's third Tsukiyomi lasted only 1 day

This one immediately put Sasuke into a coma without him being able to interact like how the first two people could do stuff.

So we know Itachi controls how strong his tsukiyomi are. They all vary in severity.

Tobi says Itachi held back against Sasuke, and that they wouldn't be having this conversation if he hadn't held back.

Zetsu also implies sasuke beat Itachi's superior eyes because Sasuke was more skilled  despite wielding the inferior tool(base sharingan), which we know is not the case. We know for a fact Itachi's genjutsu ->>>> Sasuke's genjutsu.

Danzo says Itachi's genjutsu prowess is vastly superior to that of sasuke's. 

The third databook released post those events also confirmed Itachi to still be the superior with a 5 in genjutsu in comparison to Sasuke's 4.

So, we know for a fact:

Itachi _*can*_ control the intensity of Tsukyomi
Tobi says Itachi was holding back against Sasuke.
Zetsu says Sasuke beat Itachi because Sasuke is more skilled
We now know Sasuke is not more skilled.
Yet he beat Itachi with inferior skill _and_ an inferior tool.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 21, 2013)

Or that people of the same blood can break out of their genjutsu provided that the Uchiha is skilled enough to do so. Honestly, I don't think Sasuke would fight Itachi if he knew he would lose.

"couldn't see a thing"

 Ok, it's clearly obvious Itachi held back a lot because Sasuke is gassed out. This means his Sharingan Prowess hasn't improved one bit.

"couldn't see a thing"

 Yet, Itachi is impressed he broke through Tsukyomi.

"couldn't see a thing"

 Here, he says it's time to use Amaterasu meaning he didn't one to come to this, but had to because Tsukyomi didn't work. He needed Amaterasu to push Sasuke to give in to Orochimaru. If he was holding back, he would've tried Tsukyomi at a higher intensity.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 21, 2013)

Itachi intended to die that day and give Sasuke powers. He was terminally ill and had to do it then. Him putting Sasuke in a coma would of been counter intuitive to what his goals were(dragging out Orochimaru and losing to give Sasuke MS.)


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 21, 2013)

^ _after_

 He's clearly not in a coma and Zetsu only finds out that Sasuke broke through the genjutsu when Itachi is clutching his eye.

 I still don't see anything suggesting that he held back on Tsukyomi. Zetsu makes it very clear any future Genjutsu will be pointless.

 Let's just agree to disagree.


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