# Why are Hashirama and EMS Madara put on such a pedestal?



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Seriously, it makes absolutely no sense. True they are two of the strongest shinobi barring Rikudo powered ones, but from how Kishimoto wrote it, both Naruto and Sasuke surpassed them through their battle with Juubito, or at the very least reached their level. Not to mention they're giving insane buffs which they don't have in the manga such as Naruto's speed and reactions or Sasuke's precog. 

Not only that, they're made out to be speedsters with insane reflexes when they don't have the feats for it. Hell we saw within the manga Minato outpacing Hashirama, so how is Hashirama as fast as him again? Not to mention giving V2 A level speed and strength to both Hashirama and Madara to make things even more stacked for them in debates.

Or what about giving them durability and power feats they don't have or exaggerating those that they do have? When pointed out Biju Mode Naruto has blocked a Juubi Bijudama, which is more powerful than Choju Kebetsu even in the first form, its ignored to claim that he's somehow inferior to Perfect Susano'o durability from Madara. And as for power, the Valley of the End creation is inferior to the Super Bijudama's that Naruto creates. Not to mention Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o would have to be at least as powerful as Madara's to be of any use instead of somehow being weaker. 

So what's up? Why are they put on a pedestal in the Battledome? Why are their techniques made out to be unbeatable? Why are the likes of Naruto and Sasuke downplayed or flat out ignored?


----------



## Trojan (Mar 1, 2015)

cuz hashirama.

seriously tho, people usually scale X character to superior characters for some reason. For example, although anyone has any amount of common sense know that RT Madara is far superior to Hashirama, but because Hashirama fought EMS Madara, then he get automatically anything madara achieves even when madara surpassed him. 

As you may know, anytime there is a thread Hashirama Vs X character, that thread turns to be Madara Vs that character because of the lack of Hashirama's feats in specific areas. So, you see people say Madara did this, and madara did that...blah blah blah, so Hashirama does this, and does that


Or the exaggeration of Hashirama's feats from the VOTE even though aside from the Buddha, all of his jutsu got destroyed with each attack. 


Madara on the other hand went threw so many stages, so some people mix those stages feats all together. As you can see, although that it was stated Edo Madara > EMS madara, but people think they know better, and say that edo madara is in fact weaker, which leads to those feats getting mixed all together (and as such scaled to Hashirama)


Obviously some goes to the very smart way (being sarcastic) of assuming since they were rivals that means they are equal at EVERYTHING. For example just like how Naruto's Genjutsu skills are equal to Sasuke, Or Kakashi's taijutsu is equal to 8th Gate Gai, or Minato's taijutsu and swords skill are equal to A & B

Or how Kiba and Konohamaru are on the same level as Naruto with everything because they consider themselves his rivals. 

I guess, more or less...


----------



## Kai (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Why are Hashirama and EMS Madara put on such a pedestal?
> 
> Seriously, it makes absolutely no sense. *True they are two of the strongest shinobi barring Rikudo powered ones*


That's why. 

They are the pinnacle of the top tier before the god tier threshold is crossed. Naruto and Sasuke may have been close to their level in their fight against Obito, but it wasn't until they met with Hagoromo did Kishimoto bother to state Naruto surpassed the Hokage. It's doubtful BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke surpassed their predecessors based on this progression.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> That's why.
> 
> They are the pinnacle of the top tier before the god tier threshold is crossed. Naruto and Sasuke may have been close to their level in their fight against Obito, but it wasn't until they met with Hagoromo did Kishimoto bother to state Naruto surpassed the Hokage. It's doubtful BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke surpassed their predecessors based on this progression.


Why shouldn't they have surpassed them before it? They fought a superior opponent and won, Sasuke could add Senjutsu to his Susano'o which Madara couldn't do in his EMS state, and Naruto's durability, speed, strength, and firepower are above Hashirama due to all the Sage Mode and Biju Mode multipliers.


----------



## Gibbs (Mar 1, 2015)

I am willing to grant Hashirama all of Madara's (all versions) Mokuton feats. Since Hashi was the innovator of Mokuton, he should be able to do whatever Madara can.

As far as speed/DC. IDK


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2015)

The manga spent a long time putting them on a pedestal, and people picked up on that.  Personally I respect skill and ability over raw power and cheap attacks gained through random ghost boosts, so I'd consider them better by the dimensions of a shinobi.

I'm not saying that either are stronger than non-sense Naruto and *THE DARKNESS*, but Hashirama and Madara were on another level in terms of skill in all areas, while most people at the top only come close to them in one area.  Naruto and Sasuke weren't better in any areas until they got such a boost it didn't matter, and that boost ultimately came from a plot ghost, which I don't find respectable.  So I hand-wave them as a thing that happened, and use Hashirama and Madara as the apex of the universe that at least slightly made enough sense to work with and analyze.

Why would I wish to do this?  Case in point, everyone and their kid sister blew up a meteor in The Last, and I'm pretty sure the final battle was an imitation of DBZ.  I mean look at this.



Like what is this?  What even _is_ this? 

Are they on the moon?  How are they breathing?  Why is Hinata pulsing with the visual effects used for Orochimaru's chakra, or Sasuke's Susano, or the Nibi?  Why would I wish to live in this world?


----------



## Gibbs (Mar 1, 2015)

I would say that Naruto at the pinnacle of his own power eclipsed Hashirama.Same with Sasuke.


BSM Naruto & EMS Sasuke >>>SM Hashirama & EMS Madara


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why shouldn't they have surpassed them before it? They fought a superior opponent and won, Sasuke could add Senjutsu to his Susano'o which Madara couldn't do in his EMS state, and Naruto's durability, speed, strength, and firepower are above Hashirama due to all the Sage Mode and Biju Mode multipliers.



 Senjutsu isn't a part of Sasuke's arsenal which makes that useless.

 Naruto's speed and strength is debatable as he can still be easily restrained by a far superior Wood Dragon, Hotei which can pressure BSM Naruto's speed, and even restrict his movements with a Giant Gate. Hell, Naruto has nothing that can breach Buddha.

 BSM Naruto's durability is debatable. Sure it outright tanked a Juubi Laserdama, but considering the size of the explosion as well as Kakashi's reaction towards a Juubidama compared to a Laserdama, it's safe to say that was nowhere near Juubi's most powerful attack.  Edit: That, and like TastyMuffin stated, that was from a devolved Juubi.

 Firepower is also debatable. BSM Naruto has absolutely no feats of being able to pull off multiple Bijuudamas in a single panel with very little charge time while that same Buddha withstood an onslaught of Bijuudamas w/ Susanoo Swords meaning the output was increased due to being able to pierce through the Mokuton arms, so if it wasn't for that, all of those Bijuudamas would've easily been grabbed. There's also the fact that Bijuudamas don't detonate instantly, so in all likelihood, Buddha will grab Naruto's Bijuudamas or better yet, flick it back at Naruto and have it detonate on himself since Buddha, much like the Juubi dwarfs any Bijuu.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why shouldn't they have surpassed them before it? They fought a superior opponent and won, Sasuke could add Senjutsu to his Susano'o which Madara couldn't do in his EMS state, and Naruto's durability, speed, strength, and firepower are above Hashirama due to all the Sage Mode and Biju Mode multipliers.



Most people didn't get that impression, and reached a different consensus.  You're allowed you're interpretation, and you can argue it, but if you say that they're putting Hashirama and Madara on a pedestal, the majority could respond that you're putting Naruto and Sasuke on a pedestal, and then the whole thing devolves into bickering.  So I'd not go that route.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not only that, they're made out to be speedsters with insane reflexes when they don't have the feats for it. Hell we saw within the manga Minato outpacing Hashirama, so how is Hashirama as fast as him again? Not to mention giving V2 A level speed and strength to both Hashirama and Madara to make things even more stacked for them in debates.



This really isn't as outlandish as you're making it seem. Base revived Madara blitzed Sage Naruto (well at least, almost did) - someone explicitly proven to be as fast as or quicker than the Third Raikage - from a distance of 15-20 meters; that requires Ay's maximum level of speed or something near it.

Hashirama matched Madara countless times in war, so it goes without saying that he gets scaled to it; factor in Sage Mode, which usually offers a stats boost, and saying these two fighters don't match, if not eclipse Ay in attack/movement speed starts to sound unreasonable, not the other way around.

Do I have to explain the strength side of things too?



> Or what about giving them durability and power feats they don't have or exaggerating those that they do have? When pointed out Biju Mode Naruto has blocked a * Juubi Bijudama, which is more powerful than Chojo Kebutsu*



Substantiate this premise, please? A drastically devolved Ten-Tails' blast being weaker than Sage Hashirama's strongest offensive measure (mind you, this is the same guy who pinned an exponentially stronger Ten-Tails down without much effort) isn't that out there.

At least Chojo Kebutsu actually has feats.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Senjutsu isn't a part of Sasuke's arsenal which makes that useless.
> 
> Naruto's speed and strength is debatable as he can still be easily restrained by a far superior Wood Dragon, Hotei which can pressure BSM Naruto's speed, and even restrict his movements with a Giant Gate. Hell, Naruto has nothing that can breach Buddha.


Naruto also broke out of the Wood Dragon and instantly recovered. And Cho Bijudama can breach the Buddha, given it can create an explosion 100 kilometers wide (making the battlefield where they fought the Juubi). 


> BSM Naruto's durability is debatable. Sure it outright tanked a Juubi Laserdama, but considering the size of the explosion as well as Kakashi's reaction towards a Juubidama compared to a Laserdama, it's safe to say that was nowhere near Juubi's most powerful attack.


Its still more powerful than the Choju Kebetsu by quite amount (went up against a similar gauntlet without slowing down, while Choju Kebetsu lost most if not all its arms).


> Firepower is also debatable. BSM Naruto has absolutely no feats of being able to pull off multiple Bijuudamas in a single panel with very little charge time while that same Buddha withstood an onslaught of Bijuudamas w/ Susanoo Swords meaning the output was increased due to being able to pierce through the Mokuton arms, so if it wasn't for that, all of those Bijuudamas would've easily been grabbed. There's also the fact that Bijuudamas don't detonate instantly, so in all likelihood, Buddha will grab Naruto's Bijuudamas or better yet, flick it back at Naruto and have it detonate on himself since Buddha, much like the Juubi dwarfs any Bijuu.


Uh he doesn't? Naruto can also create Super Bijudama's in an instant even without Sage Mode, and can even create Rasenshuriken's this big and powerful without Biju Mode enhancement.

None of the Bijudama's that the Shinsusenju went up against even approached Kurama's Super Bijudama's either.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> This really isn't as outlandish as you're making it seem. Base revived Madara blitzed Sage Naruto (well at least, almost did) - someone explicitly proven to be as fast as or quicker than the Third Raikage - from a distance of 15-20 meters; that requires Ay's maximum level of speed or something near it.
> 
> Hashirama matched Madara countless times in war, so it goes without saying that he gets scaled to it; factor in Sage Mode, which usually offers a stats boost, and saying these two fighters don't match, if not eclipse Ay in attack/movement speed starts to sound unreasonable, not the other way around.
> 
> Do I have to explain the strength side of things too?


No it doesn't. Both Hashirama and Madara never showed to be speedsters like A. Neither showed they could dodge Amaterasu. Neither showed they could create after images or avoid point-blank chakra blasts with ease. They focused their abilities in other areas than A did. Just because they're stronger than him, they aren't faster or as fast as him.




> Substantiate this premise, please? A drastically devolved Ten-Tails' blast being weaker than Sage Hashirama's strongest offensive measure (mind you, this is the same guy who pinned an exponentially stronger Ten-Tails down without much effort) isn't that out there.
> 
> At least Chojo Kebutsu actually has feats.


Wasn't Sage Hashirama only able to restrain and pin the Juubi _after it had bloated itself up to near immobility_? And even then, he didn't hurt it. An attack from the Juubi is, by definition stronger than Sage Hashirama since we don't see Hashirama's power being portrayed as a unmeasurable vortex of power even in its first form. And the Juubidama Laser overpowered nine bijudama without slowing down and flattened a mountain range.


----------



## Jad (Mar 1, 2015)

I always say that EOS Naruto and Sasuke is more like; Hogorama 1 w/Naruto powers and Hogorama 2 w/Sasuke powers.

Not only is Sasuke and Naruto the reincarnations of Hogorama's loins, but he blessed them with perhaps the biggest power up I have ever seen in Shounen history. Hogorama's character was perhaps the biggest plot device in this manga for the Heroe's to beat the big baddy ever. It completely ruined any tension in the manga when his old crinkly ass appeared.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto also broke out of the Wood Dragon and instantly recovered. And Cho Bijudama can breach the Buddha, given it can create an explosion 100 kilometers wide (making the battlefield where they fought the Juubi).



 That was from Madara's Inferior Mokuton. Hashirama, especially when enhanced by Senjutsu is far superior and should thus hold BM Naruto considering BM Naruto still struggled somewhat against it.



> Its still more powerful than the Choju Kebetsu by quite amount (went up against a similar gauntlet without slowing down, while Choju Kebetsu lost most if not all its arms).



 Except that was caused by an onslaught of Bijuudamas from 100% Kurama that were surrounded by Susanoo Swords. BSM Naruto's are inferior to what 100% Kurama can do and doesn't have the piercing capabilities that a Susanoodama does as well as the fact that those Bijuudamas weren't fully charged due to Naruto gathering chakra to disperse it over multiple Bijuudamas. 

 That scan of that Laserdama was of a different one that was shown to be far superior mainly because Juubi's Laserdama didn't dwarf BM Naruto while Juubi's Laserdama you presented here dwarfed mountain ranges. There's no comparison.



> Uh he doesn't? Naruto can also create Super Bijudama's in an instant even without Sage Mode, and can even create Rasenshuriken's this big and powerful without Biju Mode enhancement.
> 
> None of the Bijudama's that the Shinsusenju went up against even approached Kurama's Super Bijudama's either.



 Those aren't Superdamas. Naruto was shown for one panel preparing chakra for that attack which leaves him vulnerable to SM Hashirama's jutsus. There's also the fact Naruto's chakra was dispersed over several of those Bijuudamas, making them weaker than a Fully powered Bijuudama. Those Bijuudama were literally the size of one of Buddha's hands which means it will easily be grabbed and flicked back considering Wood Golem could grab a superior Bijuudama from 100% Kurama.

 Madara was rendered useless and was immobile. That's an unfair comparison. That's the only reason he managed to launch that RasenShuriken. There's also the fact that it required charge time which is not something Hashirama will allow.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That was from Madara's Inferior Mokuton. Hashirama, especially when enhanced by Senjutsu is far superior and should thus hold BM Naruto considering BM Naruto still struggled somewhat against it.


Unless Naruto just destroys its head since he knows that's how its to stop it.




> Except that was caused by an onslaught of Bijuudamas from 100% Kurama that were surrounded by Susanoo Swords. BSM Naruto's are inferior to what 100% Kurama can do and doesn't have the piercing capabilities that a Susanoodama does as well as the fact that those Bijuudamas weren't fully charged due to Naruto gathering chakra to disperse it over multiple Bijuudamas.


Naruto was putting out more energy in each of his Bijudama's (except for the Renkozu Bijudama) than 100% Kurama since _Madara couldn't control Kurama's output due to not being synced with Kurama's power._ Just because Naruto has just Yang Kurama, doesn't mean is power output is inferior to Kurama at the Valley of the End. Because he's synced and has resonance with Kurama, he can bring out far more power in an instant. All the Bijudama that were used by Madara at the VOTE were as powerful as the Bijudama's Biju 2-7 used. While Naruto could create one as powerful as a collaborated one in an instant. 




> Those aren't Superdamas. Naruto was shown for one panel preparing chakra for that attack which leaves him vulnerable to SM Hashirama's jutsus. There's also the fact Naruto's chakra was dispersed over several of those Bijuudamas, making them weaker than a Fully powered Bijuudama. Those Bijuudama were literally the size of one of Buddha's hands which means it will easily be grabbed and flicked back considering Wood Golem could grab a superior Bijuudama from 100% Kurama.


Again, 100% mindless Kurama's output is inferior to Naruto's Super Bijudama's. Naruto can create one's this big and powerful in an instant without any Senjutsu enhancement.

Madara never could use Kurama's Super Bijudama's (which would have trumped Shinsusenju) due to the fact he was unable to bring out Kurama's full power. Naruto however CAN, there's a difference.


> Madara was rendered useless and was immobile. That's an unfair comparison. That's the only reason he managed to launch that RasenShuriken. There's also the fact that it required charge time which is not something Hashirama will allow.


...I think you missed the point I was getting to. Naruto in just Sage Mode could create a Rasenshuriken the size of the Shinju flower without Biju Mode enhancement. How powerful would one be with all four multipliers together?


----------



## Ersa (Mar 1, 2015)

Hashirama and EMS Madara are still superior to both Naruto and Sasuke in their pre-Rikudo formes in my opinion. It's honestly what the manga showed with the constant hype of the two and their impressive feats throughout the war and the past. I don't buy either soloing both Sasuke and Naruto though I think generally speaking they are all on the same tier, Hashirama/Naruto being stronger then the other two. Tobirama even made a point of Sasuke one day being better then Madara and since Naruto is his rival the same should apply I think.

I'm not sure even why it matters since they ditched these guys once they got their Rikudo powers.


----------



## trance (Mar 1, 2015)

Because they were at a level where even the combined might of the Gokage was next to nothing to them, which was also the first time several Kage level ninja at once were depicted as _massively_ inferior against one single entity.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

Trance said:


> Because they were at a level where even the combined might of the Gokage was next to nothing to them, which was also the first time several Kage level ninja at once were depicted as _massively_ inferior against one single entity.



First time? Tailed Beast Mode Naruto beat the shit out of five Tailed Beasts, and since a single Tailed Beast >>> a Kage, it's fair to say that Naruto got that level of depiction first.


----------



## trance (Mar 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> First time? Tailed Beast Mode Naruto beat the shit out of five Tailed Beasts, and since a single Tailed Beast >>> a Kage, it's fair to say that Naruto got that level of depiction first.



Was that really before Madara brought out Perfect Susanoo and made the Gokage quiver in their sandals? 

My memory must be fuzzy.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 1, 2015)

To be fair that fight was boring.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 1, 2015)

Hashirama and Madara _far_ surpass anyone not Juubi-powered, 8-Gated, or spawned directly from Kaguya's vagina.

BM Naruto, BM Edo Minato, and EMS Sasuke are on a tier below them, and the gap is pretty big.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Seriously, it makes absolutely no sense. True they are two of the strongest shinobi barring Rikudo powered ones, but from how Kishimoto wrote it, both Naruto and Sasuke surpassed them through their battle with Juubito, or at the very least reached their level. Not to mention they're giving insane buffs which they don't have in the manga such as Naruto's speed and reactions or Sasuke's precog.
> 
> Not only that, they're made out to be speedsters with insane reflexes when they don't have the feats for it. Hell we saw within the manga Minato outpacing Hashirama, so how is Hashirama as fast as him again? Not to mention giving V2 A level speed and strength to both Hashirama and Madara to make things even more stacked for them in debates.
> 
> ...



because theyre hashi and madara  its completely insane hashirama is faster then minato becuz lulz he is hashirama he has equal reactions to bsm naruto cuz lulz he is hashirama.....people even said that base hashirama is equal to tobirama in speed and reactions even though we have tobirama being the canon fastest in his time...just because hashirama was stronger does not mean he is better at everything..

madara is faster then v2 ei cuz lulz madara he is stronger then sage narutocuz lulz...he is faster and more reflexive then ems sasuke even though sasuke edged out sage madara but nope he is madara...


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

-snip-
They are put on a pedastal justifiably 

And Kishi never said the duo were surpassed during the juubito fight 

At best they were compared and orochinaru said sasuke may one day exceed Madara 

That's about it . -snip-


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Mar 1, 2015)

Why should Naruto and Sasuke be put on pedestal before Fagoromo's godly gifts?

The whole Jubito fight is a friendship fight, doesn't give a shit to the Fagoromo's linkage. When you have Fodder 10 with that Friendship Balls and the whole Fodder Alliance for a holy tug-of-war and giving speech to break the obsession on a teenage crush and hooray we have victory. You can say power of Friendship > Hashi and Madara's power then you have a point.

I mean, an eyeless Madara trash-talking EMS Sasuke and his blood alone let the arrogant fox go into 'no underestimate' mode just by its past experience even there're 7 Bijuus + 1 Chosen Kid alongside. And more so for the man who's admitted inferiority by the same guy. 

Going by feats only Naruto and Sasuke will get murdered by Jubito in 5 seconds without external help while Hashi succeeds to shut down the beast by a single jutsu Naruto and his whole Fake family fails to do so against the inferior version, doesn't make them look any better than their past ancestors.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 1, 2015)

Because they are that strong as feats show. Feats put them above the likes of Naruto and Sasuke pre Rikudo Power up, who are the strongest Shinobi bar Rikudo Shinobi and Hashirama and Madara.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 1, 2015)

I feel like this thread is pretty much aimed diirectly at me, based on our debate, yet all it shows is abit of complaining and crying without any solid evidence

Madara and Hashirama are the strongest non rikudo shinobi through *feats and portrayal *

EMS madara >> EMS sasuke, 
his susanoo based on feats is above sasukes, comfortably,  and to top it all off, he has the whole kyuubi as a summon which gets coated in his PS to give him a massive boost in firepower, and versatility, 
yet we are getting to the conclusion that EMS sasuke is superior to madara, despite the obvious fact that PS+Kyuubi >>>>> PS itself 

Hashirama > BSM naruto > BM Naruto, 
there is literally nothing that naruto has against SS, 
his TBB are bitch slapped right back at his face which only backfires his offense, and he isnt tanking chojo kobetsu either, especially not a full frontal chojo kobetsu so he gets wrecked, 

inb4, blocking juubi beam, well that is goood and all but that is still not cutting it, 
Juubi Beam was tanked by wrapping the tails around his body preventing himself even more, yet it still went on to destroy 6 of his tails, the beam however was stronger than 9 TBB at the very least 
as for chojo kobetsu well, it had to go through 12 PS-infused-TBB which not only destroyed alot of its hands on the process, but the attack still went on to completely eradicate PS, (a construct of similar durabiliy) 

here naruto has nothing to stop the hands of SS from, so he  faces a full frontal force which rapes him 
SS also formed the entire VotE which is enormous, so by feats it is superior to drop slam which raped the BSM avatar, 

*so overall, 
Hashirama > VOTE Madara > BSM Naruto > Edo Madara > BM Naruto > EMS Madara > EMS Sasuke*


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

what argus said 
pinpoint precise well constructed argument


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 1, 2015)

Kai said:


> That's why.
> 
> They are the pinnacle of the top tier before the god tier threshold is crossed. Naruto and Sasuke may have been close to their level in their fight against Obito, but it wasn't until they met with Hagoromo did Kishimoto bother to state Naruto surpassed the Hokage. It's doubtful BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke surpassed their predecessors based on this progression.



I couldn't of said it any better myself.


----------



## MS81 (Mar 1, 2015)

what piss me off is that Obito should have gave Kakashi rikudou chakra before his death and then pass DMS to him. 

anyone saying Madara susanoo is better than Sasuke's think again.

Sasuke used the 9 bijuu chakra to make the ultimate Susanoo.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Seriously, it makes absolutely no sense. True they are two of the strongest shinobi barring Rikudo powered ones, but from how Kishimoto wrote it, both Naruto and Sasuke surpassed them through their battle with Juubito, or at the very least reached their level. Not to mention they're giving insane buffs which they don't have in the manga such as Naruto's speed and reactions or Sasuke's precog.
> 
> Not only that, they're made out to be speedsters with insane reflexes when they don't have the feats for it. Hell we saw within the manga Minato outpacing Hashirama, so how is Hashirama as fast as him again? Not to mention giving V2 A level speed and strength to both Hashirama and Madara to make things even more stacked for them in debates.
> 
> ...



They have feats, they have portrayl - they have everything to say they are the strongest shinobi in Narutoverse except Rikudou-powered characters and 8 Gate Gai.

And Kishimoto never, ever applied Naruto and Sasuke surpassed them. He applied they became close to both Hashirama and Madara, but he never applied they became more powerfull.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

Seriusly, people - EMS Madara beats everyone in 1 on 1 fight except Rikudou-boosted people and 8 Gate Gai. BSM Naruto? EMS Madara beats him. EMS Sasuke? EMS Madara stomps him. The same we can tell about Hashirama. Their feats put them in a higher league.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

MS81 said:


> what piss me off is that Obito should have gave Kakashi rikudou chakra before his death and then pass DMS to him.
> 
> anyone saying Madara susanoo is better than Sasuke's think again.
> 
> Sasuke used the 9 bijuu chakra to make the ultimate Susanoo.



i dont think madara susanoo is better either. however madara would use it better because he got more exp. 
we have already seen several times how expeirence affects dojutsu and how their jutsu are used


----------



## Ruse (Mar 1, 2015)

Because they were portrayed in a league of their own before God power ups started been handed out left and right.


----------



## Empathy (Mar 1, 2015)

I think Hashirama was treated as the strongest member of the alliance until Naruto powered up further by combining _Sennin Modo_ with his bijuu form. Sasuke I wouldn't argue to be stronger than EMS Madara. Sasuke's _Susanoo_ doesn't have the feats to quantify it as superior to Madara's, even if I think it should be. Moreover, EMS Madara can summon the full Kyuubi, which surely puts him over Sasuke. I do think Sasuke could mediate those things if he fought Madara, but I don't the feats to prove it since Sasuke powered up with perfect _Susanoo_ for such a brief period before Hagoromo's power-up?compared to Naruto, who had more time to show off his capabilities before getting killed by Madara.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I feel like this thread is pretty much aimed diirectly at me, based on our debate, yet all it shows is abit of complaining and crying without any solid evidence
> 
> Madara and Hashirama are the strongest non rikudo shinobi through *feats and portrayal *
> 
> ...



 That's the main point I've been trying to make. Buddha is literally bigger than Juubi's Laserdama (height-wise). To think it can't flick back the Bijuudama the same way the Juubi did seems a bit ridiculous.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 1, 2015)

It's not rocket science. They are damn near at the top of the top tier, tier which is right below the god tier. When it comes to the top tier only one person is above them being Itachi . Because they're so strong and what not they get hyped to hell just like the manga did throughout part two. As you should know there will always be a few people that overrated and over exaggerate a certain character hell you've seen it done with Itachi so not to sure why you're surprised other people do it for other characters.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

> I think Hashirama was treated as the strongest member of the alliance until Naruto powered up further by combining Sennin Modo with his bijuu form.



Alive SM Hashirama >>> BSM Naruto.


----------



## Empathy (Mar 1, 2015)

Well, you've convinced me.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Well, you've convinced me.



Realy?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I feel like this thread is pretty much aimed diirectly at me, based on our debate, yet all it shows is abit of complaining and crying without any solid evidence


You mean call you out for constant wanking of them without any evidence.


> Madara and Hashirama are the strongest non rikudo shinobi through *feats and portrayal *


Even though Sasuke and Naruto leveled up against a Rikudo Shinobi to the point where they could win.


> EMS madara >> EMS sasuke,
> his susanoo based on feats is above sasukes, comfortably,  and to top it all off, he has the whole kyuubi as a summon which gets coated in his PS to give him a massive boost in firepower, and versatility,
> yet we are getting to the conclusion that EMS sasuke is superior to madara, despite the obvious fact that PS+Kyuubi >>>>> PS itself


Kurama isn't Madara's standard tactic though. Only through the Valley of the End he summoned him. They have Perfect Susano'o and I think Kishimoto meant for that to have been the point where Sasuke reached Madara's level.


> Hashirama > BSM naruto > BM Naruto,
> there is literally nothing that naruto has against SS,
> his TBB are bitch slapped right back at his face which only backfires his offense, and he isnt tanking chojo kobetsu either, especially not a full frontal chojo kobetsu so he gets wrecked,


Naruto wraps his tails around himself and blocks the Choju Kebetsu just like he did with the Juubidama. Unless Shinsusenju can hit as hard as Juubito, Naruto's not going to be damaged or lose his barrier against Shinsenju. 


> inb4, blocking juubi beam, well that is goood and all but that is still not cutting it,
> Juubi Beam was tanked by wrapping the tails around his body preventing himself even more, yet it still went on to destroy 6 of his tails, the beam however was stronger than 9 TBB at the very least
> as for chojo kobetsu well, it had to go through 12 PS-infused-TBB which not only destroyed alot of its hands on the process, but the attack still went on to completely eradicate PS, (a construct of similar durabiliy)


If Naruto can block a Juubi Bijudama, it means he can block Choju Kebetsu. Juubi attacks in general are stronger than that of Hashirama's. 


> here naruto has nothing to stop the hands of SS from, so he  faces a full frontal force which rapes him
> SS also formed the entire VotE which is enormous, so by feats it is superior to drop slam which raped the BSM avatar,


SS can't counter a Bijudama the size of itself that explodes with such force to create a crater 100 kilometers around. Thats bigger than the VOTE, nearly twice as large. If you think Shinsusenju is comparable to the Juubi, that's a problem.


> *so overall,
> Hashirama > VOTE Madara > BSM Naruto > Edo Madara > BM Naruto > EMS Madara > EMS Sasuke*


Only if you downplay Naruto's and Sasuke's feats, yeah.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Every single one of those feats you just brought up don't disprove the notion that the pair could match Ay's speed; all you've effectively done is list Ay's feats ad nauseum. You realize Hashirama/Madara don't need to pull off anything you just said in those exact, specific scenarios to be considered near Ay's speed, yes?
> 
> Blitzing Sage Naruto is enough. The way you 'countered' my argument was fundamentally flawed.


On par with his first level of speed, but inferior to his maximum. That's what I was getting at. Hence why I said that it'd be outrageous for them to be as fast as V2 A instead of V1 A.




> I wasn't aware that its tails, far segregated from the main body, were similarly immobilized by the bloating.
> 
> I hope that you also didn't forget that Sage Hashirama's Gate of the Great God also tanked the Ten-Tails' fully-charged Tailed Beast Bombs.


Its tails were barely moving since it had bloated itself up. 




> That points to the Ten-Tails being rather incapable of focusing its power and instead radiating its chakra everywhere.
> 
> I mean, it's not like Naruto ever specifically looked at Sage Hashirama and measured his power. Heck, as far as I remember, he never even got the chance to, considering Hashirama was battling Madara the entire time while Naruto clashed with Obito.
> 
> So once again, you're going off the assumption that describing a feat with as much flowery language known to the human mind somehow undermines Hashirama from a relative standpoint, despite the fact that he's never been given a similar feat as a point of comparison.


I think Kurama would have pointed out that Hashirama would have the same effect the Juubi has. The Juubi's power even in its first form was shown to be so high that it couldn't be measured. It began to warp the Sensing Sphere at Alliance HQ. The Juubi has been in general above Hashirama its not even funny.




> Nine bombs that are, as far as we can tell, weaker than standard ones as a) their blast radii are quite a bit smaller than your average 5-6 km Tailed Beast Bomb, and b) they're launched from a rapid-fire sequence; naturally they'd be weaker.


And Choju Kebetsu went up against 10 bombs which are weaker than the standard ones and was destroyed in the exchange.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 1, 2015)

You said it yourself SSM: Hashirama and Madara are put on a pedestal because they are two of the strongest shinobi of all time. They're not only benchmarks for the two main characters, but also the previous vessels for Asura's and Indra's souls. That's a big deal.

It would be odd if people _didn't_ place these two on a pedestal. We know for a fact Naruto and Sasuke surpassed them. Some people just have a different idea on _when_ that happened.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 1, 2015)

Hashirama defeated EMS Madara & 100% Kyuubi with his own power. There's generally no way BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke surpassed him with their Jubito battle feats, that's a ridiculous notion. 

EMS Madara is more powerful than EMS Sasuke, and Hashirama beat him while he was armed with the most powerful bijuu, literally combining his power with it both offensively (bladed bijuudamas) and defensively (covering Kurama in PS). 

EMS Madara > EMS Sasuke 

EMS Madara + 100% Kyuubi > BSM Naruto 

EMS Madara + 100% Kyuubi fusing their power < Hashirama who beat them

Your logic 

EMS Sasuke = Hashirama 
or 
BSM Naruto = Hashirama 

is incorrect OP. Moreover, EMS Madara at his strongest had 100% Kurama as a summon, therefore by looking above we can realize that he, too, was more powerful than the two individually who fought against Jubito.

Using logic alone Hashirama has techniques that sap chakra and his Mokuton innately controls bijuu (Naruto is at a clear disadvantage). He defeated a man who was 
1. Faster than EMS Sasuke
2. Had a larger and more powerful Susano than EMS Sasuke
3. Had a larger chakra pool than EMS Sasuke
and 
4. Had larger Katons, stronger Weapons and taijutsu than Sasuke
and did I mention he had the strongest bijuu as a summon?

In other words, Hashirama is built to defeat bijuu and/or Jinchuriki (Naruto is literally no where near his level without manipulating his bijuu chakra which Hashirama is built to counter) and he already defeated a more powerful and complete version of EMS Sasuke (EMS Madara) armed with the full powered version of what Naruto has sealed in his stomach as a puppet.

For those who say BSM Naruto > 100% Kurama, I agree to a certain degree (speed, initiation, chakra manipulation), however overall power, 50% Kurama (in Naruto's gut) manifested this level of a bijuudama [1]. So yes, generally speaking, that same Kurama at 100%  would have more raw nuking power than BSM Naruto who's largest Bijuudama barely rivaled what was manifested by 50% Kurama in the panel above. Kurama can nuke on par with Naruto controlling his chakra, maybe not as quickly and he doesn't have Senjutsu, but his power (Bijuudama total output) is the same, Naruto is simply manipulating it. In a nuke war 100% Kurama (twice as powerful as BM Naruto's overall Bijuu chakra) and PS Madara would blow him out of the water with their concentrated saberdamas.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

But here's the disadvantage that 100% Kurama had at the Valley of the End: Madara mind raped him to be a mindless beast. He couldn't produce Super Bijudama's since Madara didn't focus or supercharge Kurama's abilities. All Kurama was throwing around then was standard powered Bijudama's, just as strong as those that the other Biju used.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

Well so far it seems most posters agree hashirama >BSM naruto 
And EMS madara > EMS sasuke 
Hmmmm I wonder why that is 

Also being able to block the weakest level of Juubi Bd isn't at all an indication that naruto can tank Budda 

Unless you are saying Kyuubi avatar >>>>>>>>>PS which is obviously untrue


----------



## Zef (Mar 1, 2015)

I hope people are aware that the only reason Madara, and Hashirama  got so powerful is because they're Asura/Indra reincarnations.It's not a coincidence that the reincarnations of Hagaromo's sons become the strongest shinobi of their era.

Take away the Rikudou power-ups Naruto, and Sasuke received and it's still impressive they got close to Hashirama/Madara's level at the mere age of 16/17. As Naruto, and Sasuke got older they would have undoubtedly surpassed their ancestors regardless of Hagoromo's intervention. Simply because just like Madara, and Hashirama; they too are the reincarnations of Hagaromo's sons.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 1, 2015)

either hashirama and madara would low diff either ems sasuke or BSM naruto.

both PS and mokujin are the same size as the juubi.



this is how big a biju is compared to V2 juubi.


this is how big asuras biju sized construct is compared to PS.



the scale difference blatantly shown between the duos are absolutely comical.

biju sized juubi clones were dying just from being in the mere vicinity of PS and the mokujin while they were moving.


naruto and sasuke constructs by comparison are dwarfed completely.


PS and the mokujin are the same size as the juubis super bijudama which was the same size as the juubi and the juubi sized bijudama tree.



any of narutos bijudama get casually flicked away or palmed and sent back by the mokujin. PS would tank any bijudama that naruto uses.


onto shinsuusenju, the mokujin by itself is juubi sized.




the mokujin fits on the head of shinsuusenju. it is about the size of its hands.


shinsuusenju dwarfs the juubi by a ridiculous amount. shinsuusenju would effortlessly palm any of its super bijudama that are only as big as the juubi, PS and the mokujin.

BSM narutos bijudama are so small by comprison that they wouldnt even be visible next to shinsuusenju.

judging by narutos and sasukes constructs compared to PS and mokujin, naruto and sasukes constructs would be even smaller than one of the mini-heads on shinsuusenjus head.

shinsuusenju carved out a valley thats greater length wise than the explosion from indras arrow and six paths narutos dual nature powered rasenshurikens.


BSM narutos and shinsuusenjus DC arent even comparable.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

While I don't agree with poster scaling above using panels( waaay too much effort with the lines and all btw )
Fact is Budda is sooo much bigger than both naruto and sasuke constructs that It would have no issue grabbing sasuke Susanoo and simply crushing it 

Budda is a monster of immense proportions it massively dwarfed the Kyuubi and made it look like the size difference between a cub and a fully grown man 

Even when zetsu used it it was already the size of a bijuu . Budda trolls casually


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> While I don't agree with poster scaling above using panels( waaay too much effort with the lines and all btw )
> Fact is Budda is sooo much bigger than both naruto and sasuke constructs that It would have no issue grabbing sasuke Susanoo and simply crushing it
> 
> Budda is a monster of immense proportions it massively dwarfed the Kyuubi and made it look like the size difference between a cub and a fully grown man
> ...



 That and Buddha is enormous and dwarfs any Bijuudama, much like Juubi's Laserdama.

 Link removed

 This is Juubi's Laserdama.

 Link removed

 This is Buddha.

 Buddha is likely much larger than Juubi's Laserdama considering how Buddha's size relative to a mountain looks much larger than Juubi's blast relative to a mountain.

 So tell me, how is a Bijuudama doing anything to Buddha here?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But here's the disadvantage that 100% Kurama had at the Valley of the End: Madara mind raped him to be a mindless beast. He couldn't produce Super Bijudama's since Madara didn't focus or supercharge Kurama's abilities. All Kurama was throwing around then was standard powered Bijudama's, just as strong as those that the other Biju used.


That's really your opinion. Those bijuudamas looked to be rivaling the size of the individual buddha hands here [1] if not the Buddha statue head itself, which dwarfs Hashirama's Wood Human atop it, which should easily be considered near mountain sized here (Buddha head) [1]. The hands closest to the mountain next to it (the right side of the scan) are literally nearly larger than it. A single Buddha hand made Kurama look like a fucking pocket pet [2]. 

The bijuudama were around the size of Buddha hands and obviously the size of the PS blades accompanying them, Madara's PS sword is several multiples larger than EMS Sasuke's. EMS Sasuke's Susano was the same size as BSM Naruto's avatar, which is around normal bijuu size, when he released normal spree-fire bijuudama (average sized Bijuudama which rivaled Gyuki's spree fire varaints) against the Juubi they were not larger than his construct or Gyukis, in other words Sasuke's PS sword which is significantly smaller than Madara's PS sword is literally larger than Naruto's spree-fire TBBs, which are generally considered average sized. All things considered, 100% Kurama's bijuudama rivaling the size of Madara's broken PS blade there means that they are larger than Sasuke's PS blade, which is about the size of Naruto's BSM construct, which is larger than normal sized bijuudama, which means 100% Kurama's bijuudamas are indeed larger than average sized bijuudama. 

When looking at the buddha hands, Kurama was firing bijuudama that were nearly the size of his own body, and 100% Kurama is _fucking big_, much bigger than an average sized bijuudama or a bijuu for that matter. 

This panel depicts a leisurely released variant as nearly larger than the size of individual mountains [1].


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 1, 2015)

Hashirama is stronger than BM/BSM naruto he was smirking as he dealt with naruto's main/most powerful offense in base. Naruto would get catch 1000+ punches if he piss hashirama off enough that's really the only way a match between them can end.

Sasuke is even worse off because even if his PS was on madara's level EMS got a kyuubi under complete control to tip the scales. Sasuke would never win against that kinda firepower.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's really your opinion. Those bijuudamas looked to be rivaling the size of the individual buddha hands here [1] if not the Buddha statue head itself, which dwarfs Hashirama's Wood Human atop it, which should easily be considered near mountain sized here (Buddha head) [1]. A single Buddha hand made Kurama look like a fucking pocket pet [2]. The bijuudama were around the size of Buddha hands.
> 
> In other words, Kurama was firing bijuudama that were nearly the size of his own body, and 100% Kurama is _fucking big_, much bigger than an average sized bijuudama or bijuu for that matter.
> 
> This panel depicts a leisurely released variant as nearly larger than the size of individual mountains [1].


If that's the case, why does the explosion that Kurama's Bijudama's detonate at look exactly as strong as those that the other Biju's could create? I mean, look at these examples:

Biju 2-7 blast

VOTE Kurama blast.

VOTE Blast again

100% Kurama blast.

This is the power that one of Naruto's Super Bijudama can make in comparison:

Deflects and overpowers a combined Bijudama from five Biju. Cut the explosion in half and impose it over the size of the land and you'll see the insane difference between Naruto's and VOTE Kurama's.

Or here where he contributes the majority of the energy to another super Bijudama with Bee:

Explosion is so powerful to see the curve of the Earth.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> On par with his first level of speed, but inferior to his maximum. That's what I was getting at. Hence why I said that it'd be outrageous for them to be as fast as V2 A instead of V1 A.



Oh, so now you're arguing on behalf of the premise that Madara and Hashirama are physically as fast as Ay's regular speed? (or as you refer to it, V1?)

Know how ridiculous that sounds? By extension, you're claiming V1 Ay can blitz Sage Naruto, when a) vastly slower fighters like Suigetsu and Jūgo have not only reacted to, but intercepted the former, and b) Sage Naruto already countered and effectively outpaced someone implied to be comparable to the former in speed.

It seems you keep ignoring revived Madara's speed feat. Try to address it in relation to your own claims, please, otherwise, I'm going to take it as a concession.



> Its tails were barely moving since it had bloated itself up.



Based on? Logically, its tails wouldn't be affected at all since i) its *main body* was the portion expanded, not the limbs themselves, and ii) why would Kishimoto show Hashirama deliberately restricting them if they weren't capable of moving to begin with?



> I think Kurama would have pointed out that Hashirama would have the same effect the Juubi has.



Why, necessarily? There's no reason to validate this claim other than wishful thinking that conveniently suits your stance.



> The Juubi's power even in its first form was shown to be so high that it couldn't be measured. It began to warp the Sensing Sphere at Alliance HQ. The Juubi has been in general above Hashirama its not even funny.



I'll reiterate: that rather indicates the Ten-Tails' inability to keep its incredible power from emitting in all directions like a beacon. Someone sentient, intelligent, and greatly skilled with chakra control isn't even a comparable case to begin with.

Your argument might hold merit if we were comparing two mindless entities, but alas, that is not the case.  



> And Choju Kebetsu went up against 10 bombs which are *weaker than the standard ones* and was destroyed in the exchange.



? Based on? Not only is 100% Kurama several times larger than Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode avatar - meaning the former's bombs would necessarily have to be much larger, and by definition, more powerful than standard bombs - but half of the blasts negated on part of the Ten-Tails' laser were fired from Gyuki, who is noticeably weaker than any of the other involved elements in this equation.

Those same 10 bombs were the same size as the one 100% Kurama fired against Hashirama's Five Rashomon Gates.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *You mean call you out for constant wanking of them without any evidence.*


Yet everytime you have been proven wrong, and are now resorting to calling me a ''wanker'

you made this thread in hopes of proving me wrong, yet the only one whose looking like a fool is you here, especially when you have literally shown nothing at all that states that naruto and sasuke had surprassed madara and hashirama before rikudo boosts 



> Even though Sasuke and Naruto leveled up against a Rikudo Shinobi to the point where they could win.


yeah never did that happen, 
if you seriously think that naruto and sasukes PS-Kyuubi is stronger than Juubito then we are going to have a long discussion here 



> Kurama isn't Madara's standard tactic though. Only through the Valley of the End he summoned him. They have Perfect Susano'o and I think Kishimoto meant for that to have been the point where Sasuke reached Madara's level.



Reaching someones level =/= Surpassing them,
Madaras PS > Sasukes PS, based on size, power, durability and versatility (2 blades instead of 1), and i can prove this very easily, 

*This is the output of EMS Sasukes PS*, and inb4 this is V3? Lol No 
thats a susanoo boosted by yin and yang kurama cloak, making it a boosted by 6x atleast, 
and its on par with Sasukes PS, 

after gaining juugos senjutsu, that same KCC (Kyuubi CHakra Cloak) susanoo was *physical* equals to BSM avatar, interms of durability speed, and strength, 
now remove the senjutsu in both of them and we get KCC susanoo = BM avatar 

the battle at VotE showed that sasukes Rikudo PS = RIkudo BM, 
remove their equal rikudo boost, and we have sasukes PS = BM avatar, 

thus equalling as KCC susanoo = PS = BM avatar 

and based on feats, madaras PS has an output that is well above sasukes PS, 
*slicing 5 much largeer mountains with mere shockwaves spanning several kilometeres *

hence why Madara w/Kyuubi >>> Madara > Sasuke, 



> Naruto wraps his tails around himself and blocks the Choju Kebetsu just like he did with the Juubidama. Unless Shinsusenju can hit as hard as Juubito, Naruto's not going to be damaged or lose his barrier against Shinsenju.


I have already explained that Chojo Kobetsu >> Juubitos drop slam, and why this isnt helping him at all, when he still gets raped, 
Chojo Kobetsu formed *the entire VOTE, which is this large, * 
*the entire VOTE, which is this large, * 

the crater formed  by juubitos drop slam is nowhere near as large as the entire VOTE 
and that drop slam raped the BSM avatar like nothing 



> If Naruto can block a Juubi Bijudama, it means he can block Choju Kebetsu. Juubi attacks in general are stronger than that of Hashirama's.


it wasnt a TBB, it was a laser beam, there is a big difference between their output and DC, 
annd that laser beam wasnt slowed down at all, and was stronger than 9 TBB,
whereas Chojo Kobetsu was hindered by over 11 PS-infused-TBB and completely eradicated PS (a construct of equivalent durability), 
a full frontal Chojo would pound naruto to dirt, 



> *SS can't counter a Bijudama the size of itself* that explodes with such force to create a crater 100 kilometers around. Thats bigger than the VOTE, nearly twice as large. If you think Shinsusenju is comparable to the Juubi, that's a problem.


naruto has never ever shown to make TBB the siize of SS themselves, please refrain from fanfic,

no matter what he does, any TBB themselves are just grabbed by the enormous hands of SS and slappd back at narutos face, hence why madara had to coat the TBB with his PS sword so that SS doesnt just throw them back, 

mokujin was able to grab the TBB and throw it with ease, KCM narrutos chakra arms were able to grab them and  aim them, 

SS hannds are much much higher than even the mountains, and it has multiple of them, so no TBB for naruto is cutting iit here, hence why he loses 



> Only if you downplay Naruto's and Sasuke's feats, yeah.


Keep crying pal, 
literally all you have done is bash madara/hashirama, call me a wanker, and complain about naruto and sasuke being rated below the duo, despite the fact that both feats and portrayal prove this, 
you  have also been proven wrong in all of your points, please just stop 



NarutoX28 said:


> That's the main point I've been trying to make. Buddha is literally bigger than Juubi's Laserdama (height-wise). To think it can't flick back the Bijuudama the same way the Juubi did seems a bit ridiculous.



Yeah ofcourse, the TBB are slapped back like marbles 
especially when mokujin wrapped itself around the TBB with no problem, and when KCM narutos chakra arms were able to grab and aim them with no efforts, 

SS hands that are much larger would  do so with the easiest of difficulties


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 1, 2015)

I would also like ppl to look at DaVizWiz's post,, 
it provides a very good explanation as to how there isnt even a big gap between Full Kyuubi and the BM avatar, 
the avatar is overall more suited sure, but literally no one has been able to prove why there is a gap in power between the kurama avatar and the kurama itself,  

the kurama avatar *is* kurama, 
*and the TBB that 50% kurama made*, was larger than any TBB that BM naruto has attempted to make, 
there is also the fact that there is literally no diffference betweeen the power output of obitos bijuu paths who were morre or less perfect jins, and the power of the jins themselves, 

nor is there any difference in firepower between bee and the hachibi, 
then why the helll would there be a difference in the firepower between kyuubi, 

madara whilst controlling the full kyuubi showed to be able to fire 11 continous TBB, whilst the BM avatar has only showed 5, 
more pumped chakra = more firepower in the TBB, 
11 TBB > 5 TBB  

the kurama avatar is only better overall, due to  being faster thanks to narutos own reactions being added, and it having chakra instead of flesh, so it doesnt feel pain 

but in terms of firepower and durability, there is literally no difference


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Yet everytime you have been proven wrong, and are now resorting to calling me a ''wanker'
> 
> you made this thread in hopes of proving me wrong, yet the only one whose looking like a fool is you here, especially when you have literally shown nothing at all that states that naruto and sasuke had surprassed madara and hashirama before rikudo boosts


But just because things are 'bigger' doesn't mean they're stronger. The Juubi is bigger than a Juubi Jinchuriki, but a Juubi Jinchuriki can focus that power better. 



> yeah never did that happen,
> if you seriously think that naruto and sasukes PS-Kyuubi is stronger than Juubito then we are going to have a long discussion here


No, I never said it was stronger than Juubito. I just said they leveled up to the point where they could win, not outright beat Juubito.




> Reaching someones level =/= Surpassing them,
> Madaras PS > Sasukes PS, based on size, power, durability and versatility (2 blades instead of 1), and i can prove this very easily,


No, you really can't.


> *This is the output of EMS Sasukes PS*, and inb4 this is V3? Lol No
> thats a susanoo boosted by yin and yang kurama cloak, making it a boosted by 6x atleast,
> and its on par with Sasukes PS,


...what? You're honestly going to claim that boosted Legged Susano'o is on par with a Perfect Susano'o? Are you going to downplay Sasuke's that much? Sasuke's Susano'o would at least be as big as Madara's and as powerful if he brought it out.


> after gaining juugos senjutsu, that same KCC (Kyuubi CHakra Cloak) susanoo was *physical* equals to BSM avatar, interms of durability speed, and strength,
> now remove the senjutsu in both of them and we get KCC susanoo = BM avatar
> 
> the battle at VotE showed that sasukes Rikudo PS = RIkudo BM,
> ...


That's...LOTS of downplay dude. Sasuke achieved Perfect Susano'o but didnt' show it on screen until he showed off his Rinnegan. But you're honestly going to claim it'd only be as powerful as his upgraded V3 Susano'o so Madara's can be stronger?



> I have already explained that Chojo Kobetsu >> Juubitos drop slam, and why this isnt helping him at all, when he still gets raped,
> Chojo Kobetsu formed *the entire VOTE, which is this large, *
> *the entire VOTE, which is this large, *
> 
> ...


Evening Elephant created a similar crater but its no doubt more powerful than Chojo Kebetsu, ARGUS. The sheer depth that made it?



> it wasnt a TBB, it was a laser beam, there is a big difference between their output and DC,
> annd that laser beam wasnt slowed down at all, and was stronger than 9 TBB,
> whereas Chojo Kobetsu was hindered by over 11 PS-infused-TBB and completely eradicated PS (a construct of equivalent durability),
> a full frontal Chojo would pound naruto to dirt,


...Bijudama can be fired as a beam. Its first usage in the manga _was_ a beam. And...didn't you just show why its more powerful in the comparison?



> naruto has never ever shown to make TBB the siize of SS themselves, please refrain from fanfic,


Yeah, he kind of has.


> no matter what he does, any TBB themselves are just grabbed by the enormous hands of SS and slappd back at narutos face, hence why madara had to coat the TBB with his PS sword so that SS doesnt just throw them back,


Not unless he uses Rasenshurikens like Madara's blades, which are strong enough to slice right through the Juubi.


> mokujin was able to grab the TBB and throw it with ease, KCM narrutos chakra arms were able to grab them and  aim them,


...when did KCM Naruto grab a Tailed Beast Ball at all?


> SS hannds are much much higher than even the mountains, and it has multiple of them, so no TBB for naruto is cutting iit here, hence why he loses


Or he can turtle up and let Shinsensenju use up its arms and then counter attack.



> Keep crying pal,
> literally all you have done is bash madara/hashirama, call me a wanker, and complain about naruto and sasuke being rated below the duo, despite the fact that both feats and portrayal prove this,
> you  have also been proven wrong in all of your points, please just stop


How is putting them on the level that the manga showed as bashing, and yes you are a wanker since you seem to downplay Naruto and Sasuke's feats. You even said Sasuke's V3 Susano'o is just as strong as his Perfect Susano'o with a straight face, and you can't honestly believe I wouldn't call that downplay or wanking of Hashirama and Madara.




> Yeah ofcourse, the TBB are slapped back like marbles
> especially when mokujin wrapped itself around the TBB with no problem, and when KCM narutos chakra arms were able to grab and aim them with no efforts,
> 
> SS hands that are much larger would  do so with the easiest of difficulties


Even if the TBB's detonate with such force to create a blast this big?


----------



## Kyu (Mar 1, 2015)

> Take away the Rikudou power-ups Naruto, and Sasuke received and it's still impressive they got close to Hashirama/Madara's level at the mere age of 16/17. As Naruto, and Sasuke got older they would have undoubtedly surpassed their ancestors regardless of Hagoromo's intervention.



Agreed. To say or insinuate otherwise is pretty ridiculous.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> But just because things are 'bigger' doesn't mean they're stronger. The Juubi is bigger than a Juubi Jinchuriki, but a Juubi Jinchuriki can focus that power better.


when it comes to TBB, from a similar entity then yes, the bigger  the stronger 


> No, I never said it was stronger than Juubito. I just said they leveled up to the point where they could win, not outright beat Juubito.


and does that mean that hashirama and madara  cant do such thing? 
VOTE madara >>> EMS Sasuke  
Hashirama > BSM naruto 
so yeah they are stronger and would be in a better position 



> No, you really can't.


Not an argument 


> ...what? You're honestly going to claim that boosted Legged Susano'o is on par with a Perfect Susano'o? Are you going to downplay Sasuke's that much? Sasuke's Susano'o would at least be as big as Madara's and as powerful if he brought it out.


Uhh No, feats and scaling clearly say otherwise, and yet again instead of countering my post you resort to just saying that ts downplayinng, 

its not your ordinary legged susanoo, its a susanoo boosted by 6x at the very least, and thats how it reached the level of PS 

[





> That's...LOTS of downplay dude. Sasuke achieved Perfect Susano'o but didnt' show it on screen until he showed off his Rinnegan. But you're honestly going to claim it'd only be as powerful as his upgraded V3 Susano'o so Madara's can be stronger?


No, i didnt just jump to that conclusion, either counter it or stop saying that its downplaying 
Rikudo PS = Rikudo BM, as shown during the battle at VotE, now if you remove the rikudo boost then we have Sasukes PS = Narutos BM avatar, 
and Sasukes KCC senjutsu susanoo was physical equal to BSM avatar, 
remove the senjutsu boost and we have KCC susanoo = BM avatar = PS 
so yeah that shinju root was the best thing EMS Sasukes regular PS could do,  
the same root thats not even a size of one mountain that madaras PS was cleaving, from miles away, whilst sasuke needed direct contact to do so, with a shockwave so minute that it didnt even reach the fodders that were at ground 



> Evening Elephant created a similar crater but its no doubt more powerful than Chojo Kebetsu, ARGUS. The sheer depth that made it?


*one strike of EE* created a crater this large its enormous, and is *well above what juubito made, *
one strike of EE, is stronger than a BSM avatars TBB, given the fact that the former *completely breached through the TSB shield* whilst the latter still managed to crack it, 

EE has 5 strikes, whilst Chojo Kobetsu went through 11 PS-TBB and busted PS so even if theres a gap, its no where near as large as what youre making it out to be,, 



> ...Bijudama can be fired as a beam. Its first usage in the manga _was_ a beam. And...didn't you just show why its more powerful in the comparison?
> 
> 
> Yeah, he kind of has.
> ...


FRS cant be used like Madaras bladdes on the TBB, thats not how it works mate, 
nor would something like FRS even be a factor here, 



> ...when did KCM Naruto grab a Tailed Beast Ball at all?


*well above what juubito made, *



> Or he can turtle up and let Shinsensenju use up its arms and then counter attack.


With what? with TBB? because that will just backfire in its face, 
andd he cant do shit against chojo kobetsu either, 
he cant evade it and he cant tank it, so he pummelled 



> How is putting them on the level that the manga showed as bashing, and yes you are a wanker since you seem to downplay Naruto and Sasuke's feats.


Lol, if it helps you sleep at night, then sure, call me a wanker, 
but the only one whose loooking like a clown here is you,  



> You even said Sasuke's V3 Susano'o is just as strong as his Perfect Susano'o with a straight face, and you can't honestly believe I wouldn't call that downplay or wanking of Hashirama and Madara.


Sasukes KCC susanoo boosted by over 6x is equal to his PS, and i see yet again that insttead of countering it, you resort to calling it ''sasuke bashing'' or ''wank'', 
how is  it even wank. when the manga portrays that same susanoo to be physical equals to the BSM avatar?  
not to mention that manga and logical scaling compeltely support the fact that Madaras PS > sauskes PS, and Sasukes KCC susanoo = PS 



> Even if the TBB's detonate with such force to create a blast this big?


durability of SS >> Durability of the kurama avatar 
and  the avatar would be getting the TBB head on, 
so the only one who would be down would be naruto


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> when it comes to TBB, from a similar entity then yes, the bigger  the stronger


Doesn't work when the 'bigger' TBB's from Kurama in the VOTE or during the Kurama attack on Konoha exploded with similar force to the Bijudama's from Biju 2-7.


> and does that mean that hashirama and madara  cant do such thing?
> VOTE madara >>> EMS Sasuke
> Hashirama > BSM naruto
> so yeah they are stronger and would be in a better position


Given they lack the synergy and teamwork that Naruto and Sasuke have, as well as lacking the Biju Chakras that Naruto has, they can't repeat the feat.



> Not an argument


Kind of is.


> Uhh No, feats and scaling clearly say otherwise, and yet again instead of countering my post you resort to just saying that ts downplayinng,
> 
> its not your ordinary legged susanoo, its a susanoo boosted by 6x at the very least, and thats how it reached the level of PS


No, it didn't reach the level of a Perfect Susano'o. It is downplaying to a tremendous amount. Perfect Susano'os are in general _huge_ and can cut mountains in half by accident. Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o doesn't even approach it. Hell its feats are still inferior to BM and BSM Naruto in general so you can't go to the equality argument.



> No, i didnt just jump to that conclusion, either counter it or stop saying that its downplaying


Yes, you DID. You are arbiterly putting Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o on the same fucking level as a legged Susano'o. That's a BULLSHIT argument and you fucking know it! 


> Rikudo PS = Rikudo BM, as shown during the battle at VotE, now if you remove the rikudo boost then we have Sasukes PS = Narutos BM avatar,
> and Sasukes KCC senjutsu susanoo was physical equal to BSM avatar,
> remove the senjutsu boost and we have KCC susanoo = BM avatar = PS
> so yeah that shinju root was the best thing EMS Sasukes regular PS could do,


It doesn't work like that! Sasuke never physically shown his Perfect Susano'o with just his EMS, but he showed he can use it. Thus, he should get scaled to Madara's. 

Oh and by the way, Rikudo PS only equaled Rikudo BSM because Naruto was holding back. otherwise he was deflecting mountain and meteor slashing blades with just his tails without even trying.


> the same root thats not even a size of one mountain that madaras PS was cleaving, from miles away, whilst sasuke needed direct contact to do so, with a shockwave so minute that it didnt even reach the fodders that were at ground




Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o no where NEAR approaches his Perfect Susano'o's level. Its not only stupid to claim so, it shows how BLATANT your downplay is! Even saying that boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to Naruto's BSM form just to add to the downplaying is just insulting!


> *one strike of EE* created a crater this large its enormous, and is *well above what juubito made, *
> one strike of EE, is stronger than a BSM avatars TBB, given the fact that the former *completely breached through the TSB shield* whilst the latter still managed to crack it,


I was using EE as an comparison since its not as big as the VOTE, but the depth of the crater it makes was more impressive. Juubito's slam was calculated to be in the country level I believe, due to how deep and wide it was. 


> EE has 5 strikes, whilst Chojo Kobetsu went through 11 PS-TBB and busted PS so even if theres a gap, its no where near as large as what youre making it out to be,,


...wait, now you're saying Choju Kebetsu's gap to Evening Elephant isn't as big as the day is long? 



> FRS cant be used like Madaras bladdes on the TBB, thats not how it works mate,
> nor would something like FRS even be a factor here,




Futon: Rasenshuriken's launched simultaneously from the tails with enough power to sever the fucking Juubi's tails will be helluva helpful addition to a Senpo: Cho Bijudama.



> Link removed


 Forgot about that scene. Thanks.



> With what? with TBB? because that will just backfire in its face,
> andd he cant do shit against chojo kobetsu either,
> he cant evade it and he cant tank it, so he pummelled


Naruto can tank it by turtling with his tails. They may get damaged (loosing eight instead of seven) but then Naruto can counter with a Cho Bijudama right as Hashirama advances with a Futon: Cho Odama Rasenshuriken as a starter.



> Lol, if it helps you sleep at night, then sure, call me a wanker,
> but the only one whose loooking like a clown here is you,


I'm not the one claiming that an boosted Legged Susano'o equals a Perfect Susano'o or equals Naruto's BSM like YOU are.



> Sasukes KCC susanoo boosted by over 6x is equal to his PS, and i see yet again that insttead of countering it, you resort to calling it ''sasuke bashing'' or ''wank'',
> how is  it even wank. when the manga portrays that same susanoo to be physical equals to the BSM avatar?
> not to mention that manga and logical scaling compeltely support the fact that Madaras PS > sauskes PS, and Sasukes KCC susanoo = PS


Perfect Susano'o on principle would be far stronger than the boosted legged Susano'o Sasuke used against Juubito. It is downplaying. So much so you're claiming that Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to BSM when it showed inferior DC, durability, strength, and speed! 



> durability of SS >> Durability of the kurama avatar
> and  the avatar would be getting the TBB head on,
> so the only one who would be down would be naruto


Not even.

I'm done arguing with you ARGUS. The moment you claim Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to his Perfect Susano'o, then claiming Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to Naruto's Biju Mode or Biju Sage Mode, it just shows how far you're willing to downplay Naruto and Sasuke in favor of Hashiram and Madara.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 1, 2015)

If you're done with ARGUS, please address my arguments next, SS12.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If you're done with ARGUS, please address my arguments next, SS12.


Will do! Don't worry about it dude!


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Oh, so now you're arguing on behalf of the premise that Madara and Hashirama are physically as fast as Ay's regular speed? (or as you refer to it, V1?)
> 
> Know how ridiculous that sounds? By extension, you're claiming V1 Ay can blitz Sage Naruto, when a) vastly slower fighters like Suigetsu and Jūgo have not only reacted to, but intercepted the former, and b) Sage Naruto already countered and effectively outpaced someone implied to be comparable to the former in speed.
> 
> It seems you keep ignoring revived Madara's speed feat. Try to address it in relation to your own claims, please, otherwise, I'm going to take it as a concession.


Wasn't Sage Naruto not in the best condition against revived Madara+? Considering he lobbed a Odama Rasenshuriken that could be like 2-2.5 normal Rasenshuriken's worth of Sage Chakra, his reactions probably weren't the best they normally would have been (something similar happened in the Pain arc). 

And its not that ridiculous. Version 1 speed is a very high level for most shinobi. Hell when he used it against fully transformed Juugo? Juugo couldn't do anything and his blasts were dodged point blank. Not to mention keeping up with not-serious but fresh KCM Naruto speed.


> Based on? Logically, its tails wouldn't be affected at all since i) its *main body* was the portion expanded, not the limbs themselves, and ii) why would Kishimoto show Hashirama deliberately restricting them if they weren't capable of moving to begin with?


Good point, but was more focusing on the 'head' seal. Thanks for pointing that out.




> Why, necessarily? There's no reason to validate this claim other than wishful thinking that conveniently suits your stance.


...since Hashirama isn't as powerful as the Juubi itself? 




> I'll reiterate: that rather indicates the Ten-Tails' inability to keep its incredible power from emitting in all directions like a beacon. Someone sentient, intelligent, and greatly skilled with chakra control isn't even a comparable case to begin with.
> 
> Your argument might hold merit if we were comparing two mindless entities, but alas, that is not the case.


Wait, just to clarify dude, is Hashirama as powerful as the Ten-Tails in your opinion?




> ? Based on? Not only is 100% Kurama several times larger than Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode avatar - meaning the former's bombs would necessarily have to be much larger, and by definition, more powerful than standard bombs - but half of the blasts negated on part of the Ten-Tails' laser were fired from Gyuki, who is noticeably weaker than any of the other involved elements in this equation.
> 
> Those same 10 bombs were the same size as the one 100% Kurama fired against Hashirama's Five Rashomon Gates.


Since you said it yourself, the rapid fire nature of that clash means the Bijudama's would be weaker. And 100% Kurama's Bijudama's would be, despite being bigger than Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode avatar, exploded with the same amount of force and power as Biju 2-7 since they weren't supercharged.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If you're done with ARGUS, please address my arguments next, SS12.



He is not "done" with anyone here. He cant counter ARGUS, he cant counter you. He cant back up his words and he will get countered again by ARGUS. In fact, ARGUS already won this debate.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't work when the 'bigger' TBB's from Kurama in the VOTE or during the Kurama attack on Konoha exploded with similar force to the Bijudama's from Biju 2-7.


you clearly didnt read what i said, so ill post it again 


> when it comes to TBB, *from a similar entity * then yes, the bigger the stronger


so this should refute everything that you said here, 
larger TBB from the BM avatar > smaller TBB from the BM avatar, 
nice try though   



> Given they lack the synergy and teamwork that Naruto and Sasuke have, as well as lacking the Biju Chakras that Naruto has, they can't repeat the feat.


naruto and sasuke have their PS-Kurama, 
madara has his own, along with hashiramas own SS that took out his fusion, 
combine the 2 together and naruto and sasuke are blown out the water 



> Kind of is.
> 
> No, it didn't reach the level of a Perfect Susano'o. It is downplaying to a tremendous amount. Perfect Susano'os are in general _huge_ and can cut mountains in half by accident. Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o doesn't even approach it. Hell its feats are still inferior to BM and BSM Naruto in general so you can't go to the equality argument.


Sasukes Rikudo PS was more or less the same size as narutos Rikudo BM, 
remove the Rikudo boost and his PS becomes the size as BM avatar, 
KCC susanoo was the same size as the BSM avatar, so this whole size thing is not helping you, 

SAsukes KCC susanoo managed to cut the branch of god tree which is about the size of a small mountain, so yeah it was PS level, along with the fact that his same KCC senjutsu susanoo had the same durability, speed, and strength as the BSM avatar, 
it is exactly PS level, doesnt matter if it isnt BM level in terms of combat, because neither is EMS madaras PS, 

you trying to downplay KCC susanoo only makes it worse for you, since its pretty much exactly the same power as his PS, as i have proven already 



> Yes, you DID. You are arbiterly putting Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o on the same fucking level as a legged Susano'o. That's a BULLSHIT argument and you fucking know it!


Instead of calling it a bullshit argument, why dont you actually counter it, because you again havent countered shit 
a legged susanoo drugged by yin and yang  kyuubi claok and senjutsu isnt exactly a normal legged susanoo  



> It doesn't work like that! Sasuke never physically shown his Perfect Susano'o with just his EMS, but he showed he can use it. Thus, he should get scaled to Madara's.


And why is that? 
based on feats madars susannoo > sasukes, every single version is above his 
and the fact that based on scaling Sasukes PS has shown its ouput to be below madaras, 
means that we actually use what sasuke is capable of, insttead of giving him fanfic feats, 
just goes to show your usual double standards 



> Oh and by the way, Rikudo PS only equaled Rikudo BSM because Naruto was holding back. otherwise he was deflecting mountain and meteor slashing blades with just his tails without even trying.


Uhh No it didnt, they were *physical equals, * 
Sasukes PS and narutos rikudo avatar took the exact samme damage from the clash between their attacks, and had exactly the same strength and speed, 
the only diifference is that TBB > PS slashes, hence  why it had no affect on naruto and neither would it have an affect on PS  itself 




> Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o no where NEAR approaches his Perfect Susano'o's level. Its not only stupid to claim so, it shows how BLATANT your downplay is! Even saying that boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to Naruto's BSM form just to add to the downplaying is just insulting!


I will repeat it again 
instead of crying why dont you counter what i just said? 
Sasukes KCC senjutsu susanoo was on par with the BSM avatar, in terms of durability, speed and strength 
removing the senjutsu on both parts and we get to KCC susanoo = BM avatar, 
Rikudo PS = Rikudo BM, as shown at VOTE 
remving the rikudo boost and we get PS = BM avatar, 
thus finally getting to KCC susanoo = PS 
and what he showed clearly gets to the conclusion that madaras PS >> Sasukes 


> I was using EE as an comparison since its not as big as the VOTE, but the depth of the crater it makes was more impressive. Juubito's slam was calculated to be in the country level I believe, due to how deep and wide it was.


EE >=< Chojo Kobetsu > Juubitos drop slam  
based on what wee have seen in the manga 


> ...wait, now you're saying Choju Kebetsu's gap to Evening Elephant isn't as big as the day is long?


One strike of EE is slightly stonger than a BSM TBB, and there are 5 strikes, 

Chojo Kobetsu > 11 PS-infused TBB, and busted PS, which has superior durability to sasukes susanoo 

it isnt really far  fetched to say that chojo is superior 


> Futon: Rasenshuriken's launched simultaneously from the tails with enough power to sever the fucking Juubi's tails will be helluva helpful addition to a Senpo: Cho Bijudama.


yet the same FRS was  tanked by the third raikage, 

FRS doesnt even have anywhere near the cutting power of a single PS slash which slices multiple mountains from a kilometeres worth of distance, and these same PS slshes can even be countered by base hashirama, 
yet you have the erve to say that they are somehow a factor here? come on 




> Forgot about that scene. Thanks.
> 
> 
> Naruto can tank it by turtling with his tails. They may get damaged (loosing eight instead of seven) but then Naruto can counter with a Cho Bijudama right as Hashirama advances with a Futon: Cho Odama Rasenshuriken as a starter.


Already explained why even that wont be helping him, 
his avatar gets eradicated especailly when he is facing th full fforce of chojo, 

as for COFRS, Lol, Mokuton Hobi tanks it with little to no damage just how it tanked a kurama TBB, so that is also a non factor 


> I'm not the one claiming that an boosted Legged Susano'o equals a Perfect Susano'o or equals Naruto's BSM like YOU are.
> 
> 
> Perfect Susano'o on principle would be far stronger than the boosted legged Susano'o Sasuke used against Juubito. It is downplaying. So much so you're claiming that Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to BSM when it showed inferior DC, durability, strength, and speed!


a lot of crying here again, but yet again no argument 
Sasukes boosted legged susanoo and narutos BSM avatar showed exactly the same speed strneght and durability, seeing how they both suffereed same damge from the drop slam and were landing their attacks and moving at exactly the same speeds, 

based on nothing at all you jump to the conclusion that sasukes KCC senjutsu susanoo is inferior, in such things, 

the so called principle only works if  its a normal legged susanoo, but it isnt, so nice try 



> Not even.
> 
> I'm done arguing with you ARGUS. The moment you claim Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to his Perfect Susano'o, then claiming Sasuke's boosted Legged Susano'o is equal to Naruto's Biju Mode or Biju Sage Mode, it just shows how far you're willing to downplay Naruto and Sasuke in favor of Hashiram and Madara.


Concesion acceppted
no arguments on your behalff, just some crying and complaining that i downplay, despite the fact that they have shown themselves to be above the duo and all evidence goes against you


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> naruto and sasuke have their PS-Kurama,
> madara has his own, along with hashiramas own SS that took out his fusion,
> combine the 2 together and naruto and sasuke are blown out the water


And the Biju chakra's?



> Sasukes Rikudo PS was more or less the same size as narutos Rikudo BM,
> remove the Rikudo boost and his PS becomes the size as BM avatar,
> KCC susanoo was the same size as the BSM avatar, so this whole size thing is not helping you,
> 
> ...


No, you're hyping it up to insane degrees so you can justify making Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o as weak as shit compared to Madara's and in turn, making Naruto look as weak as shit compared to Hashirama. I know your game ARGUS.

KCC Senjutsu Susano'o is inferior in MANY ways to Naruto's BSM Avatar. DC inferior. Striking strength inferior. Speed inferior. Durability inferior.



> Instead of calling it a bullshit argument, why dont you actually counter it, because you again havent countered shit
> a legged susanoo drugged by yin and yang  kyuubi claok and senjutsu isnt exactly a normal legged susanoo


Of course it isn't a normal Legged Susano'o. But its STILL not on Perfect Susano'o level. This is fucking COMMON SENSE and the fact you use it as an argument to justify ripping the balls of Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o avatar for your bullshit A>B>C logic is infuriating.



> And why is that?
> based on feats madars susannoo > sasukes, every single version is above his
> and the fact that based on scaling Sasukes PS has shown its ouput to be below madaras,
> means that we actually use what sasuke is capable of, insttead of giving him fanfic feats,
> just goes to show your usual double standards


Oh now you're calling it a double standard since I don't give you the damn reaction and speed scaling that Sasuke has to Madara because I insist that Sasuke's TECHNIQUE gets scaled to Madara's. How is Sasuke's EMS Susano'o inferior to Madara's? Pray tell. Both can use the legged form. Both can evolve it from the ribcage. Both can access Perfect Susano'o. There's absolutely no other reason than your preference for Madara that Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o shouldn't be as strong as Madara's. 



> Uhh No it didnt, they were *physical equals, *
> Sasukes PS and narutos rikudo avatar took the exact samme damage from the clash between their attacks, and had exactly the same strength and speed,
> the only diifference is that TBB > PS slashes, hence  why it had no affect on naruto and neither would it have an affect on PS  itself


Only because Naruto was holding back and didn't want to kill Sasuke, who was attacking with killing intent. Hell, Sasuke's PS slashes were deflected by fricking tail swipes!




> I will repeat it again
> instead of crying why dont you counter what i just said?
> Sasukes KCC senjutsu susanoo was on par with the BSM avatar, in terms of durability, speed and strength
> removing the senjutsu on both parts and we get to KCC susanoo = BM avatar,
> ...


I wonder how many people agree with this 'assessment'. Claiming that a Legged Susano'o being upgraded equals a Perfect Susano'o. Or that a CURSED SEAL Susano'o is equal to a true Sage Mode-enhanced Biju Mode (when in the manga Cursed Seal is inferior to Sage Mode). 

BM Avatar would be superior in everything to Perfect Susano'o but size, by the way. Firepower, durability, strength, speed, BM Avatar blows it away.



> EE >=< Chojo Kobetsu > Juubitos drop slam
> based on what wee have seen in the manga


More like: Evening Elephant >=< Juubito's drop slam (due to it being a Rikudo character using it) >>>>>> Choju Kebetsu. There is no way in fucking hell Choju Kebetsu is as powerful as a Juubi Jin attack or a Eight Gated Formation attack.


> One strike of EE is slightly stonger than a BSM TBB, and there are 5 strikes,


One strike from EE is loads stronger than a BSM TBB given it completely shattered Madara's Gudodama Sphere when it got an opening via Kamui.


> Chojo Kobetsu > 11 PS-infused TBB, and busted PS, which has superior durability to sasukes susanoo


Evening Elephant smashed through a full Gudoama sphere which can tank Juubi Bijudama's. Sorry, wrong here.


> it isnt really far  fetched to say that chojo is superior


It is. You're completely wanking it if you believe an attack that turned Juubi Jin Madara into a ragdoll and shattered his Gudodama defensive sphere is weaker or inferior to Choju Kebetsu.


> yet the same FRS was  tanked by the third raikage,


KCM Futon: Rasenshuriken from a fucking _clone_. NOT a fricking Biju Mode Rasenshuriken which draws upon far more power than what Datclone could. The very fact it could cut through the JUUBI, which can tank its own Bijudama's is telling. Why do you ignore that fucking little fact?


> FRS doesnt even have anywhere near the cutting power of a single PS slash which slices multiple mountains from a kilometeres worth of distance, and these same PS slshes can even be countered by base hashirama,
> yet you have the erve to say that they are somehow a factor here? come on


In Biju Mode, when they're far stronger, Futon: Rasenshuriken will be invaluable. Cutting through Juubi Tails >>>> Shinsusenju durability. 




> Already explained why even that wont be helping him,
> his avatar gets eradicated especailly when he is facing th full fforce of chojo,


He won't lose the avatar. You're seriously underestimating BM Naruto's durability, much less BSM's.


> as for COFRS, Lol, Mokuton Hobi tanks it with little to no damage just how it tanked a kurama TBB, so that is also a non factor


Hobi will be shredded due to the Futon factor.


> a lot of crying here again, but yet again no argument
> Sasukes boosted legged susanoo and narutos BSM avatar showed exactly the same speed strneght and durability, seeing how they both suffereed same damge from the drop slam and were landing their attacks and moving at exactly the same speeds,


You're the one who has no argument. Know why I'm calling you out on downplaying? Since you do it every post. Boosted Legged Susano'o is NOT equal to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o. Boosted Legged Susano'o is NOT equal to Naruto's BSM Avatar. Just because they were fighting at the same time does not make those techniques equal. 


> based on nothing at all you jump to the conclusion that sasukes KCC senjutsu susanoo is inferior, in such things,


Since it fucking is. No one but YOU fucking claim these outrageous bullshit since in your fucking mind, Hashirama and Madara are untouchable by Naruto and Sasuke until their Rikudo Power Ups. KCC Cursed Seal Legged Susano'o is inferior to BSM Naruto in a lot of categories, and its inferior to Perfect Susano'o.


> the so called principle only works if  its a normal legged susanoo, but it isnt, so nice try


Notice how you're the only one claiming this bullshit ARGUS. You're so damn determined in yanking Sasuke's power away from him, you degrade his Perfect Susano'o so its just as powerful as a KCC Cursed Seal Susano'o so you can justify EMS Madara without Kurama kicking his ass. 



> Concesion acceppted
> no arguments on your behalff, just some crying and complaining that i downplay, despite the fact that they have shown themselves to be above the duo and all evidence goes against you



-snip-


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

But i want to write one thing - both Hashirama and Madara *ARE* speedsters beyond V2 Ei and Minato. They are above them in speed because of their feats. Their attacking speed, reaction speed and reflexes are among the best in Narutoverse. Too bad they are underrated in speed department, although, in truth, they are insanely fast.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

^ No, they don't. Starwanderer, Hashirama and Madara are fast, but they aren't faster than Minato or V2 A. They haven't dodged Amaterasu. Moved as fast they look like lightning. And Minato has canonically outpaced Hashirama.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> If you agree with ARGUS' bullshit, you are the fanboy, not me. I bet it must have been hard for you to accept Naruto and Sasuke even surpassed Hashirama and Madara in the first place like Shinobi no Kami.



LOL guys, he lowered my rep. Ahahahahaha, as if i care about my reputation. He cant win a debate so he lowers peoples reputation as if it will change anything.

First of all, i do not agree with ARGUS on many things. Furthermore, i had several debates with him. But, unlike you, he is a good debater. And its interesting to debate with him. Also, he never lowers reputation when he cant win a debate, like you do. And did to me - 2 times already.

I cannot accept your fanboish opinion which had been countered so many times, dude. Realy. Both Naruto and Sasuke never surpassed aither Madara, or Hashirama before Rikudou boost. 

I replied to it here so lots of people can see that. 

-snip-


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ^ No, they don't. Starwanderer, Hashirama and Madara are fast, but they aren't faster than Minato or V2 A. They haven't dodged Amaterasu. Moved as fast they look like lightning. And Minato has canonically outpaced Hashirama.



They are. Because they have feats far above those of Minato, who is *FEATLESS*. And their alive vertions are faster than V2 Ei.

I can acknowledge you about their feats, if you want. Maybe you havent read the Manga chapters where they have shown their speed. 

Shunshin is a travel speed technique. I have never seen anyone using Shunshin to increase attacking speed. Minato is faster than Hashirama in tarvel speed (which is argueable by the way, because i highly doubt Hashirama moved as fast as he could on the battlefield). I am talking about combat speed, reaction speed and reflexes, in which both Hashirama and Madara are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minato.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

Tell me? What is 'fanboyish' when I point out a Futon: Rasenshuriken in Biju mode cut throug the fucking Juubi and it being repeatedly ignored, and a low end feat being brought up in comparison as if to claim the Sandaime Raikage has superior durability to the Juubi?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> They are. Because they have feats far above those of Minato, who is *FEATLESS*. And their alive vertions are faster than V2 Ei.


...Minato...whose entire stitch is speed...is featless? WHAT? What feats do they have that put them above Minato? Tell me what? Since Minato is repeatedly said to be the fastest shinobi who ever _lived_.


> I can acknowledge you about their feats, if you want. Maybe you havent read the Manga chapters where they have shown their speed.


So you have them dodging Amaterasu? Since that's the feat you need to get _as_ fast as A. Whose still slower than Minato.


> Shunshin is a travel speed technique. I have never seen anyone using Shunshin to increase attacking speed. Minato is faster than Hashirama in tarvel speed (which is argueable by the way, because i highly doubt Hashirama moved as fast as he could on the battlefield). I am talking about combat speed, reaction speed and reflexes, in which both Hashirama and Madara are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minato.


Minato reacts to Juubi Jins. First Hokage to reach the battlefield. Only characters can even touch him are Juubi Jins or Rikudo Powered fighters. Outpaces even Eight Gated Guy on panel and reacts to his speed in the Eighth Gate.

...so...no. Minato is faster than Hashirama and Madara. This is a ridiculous claim Starwanderer.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tell me? What is 'fanboyish' when I point out a Futon: Rasenshuriken in Biju mode cut throug the fucking Juubi and it being repeatedly ignored, and a low end feat being brought up in comparison as if to claim the Sandaime Raikage has superior durability to the Juubi?



As i remember, Naruto did that after Rikudou's boost. If thats what you are talking about, than... Here you go. 

Edo Madara reacted to V2 Raikage and blocked his punch point blank (of course you will tell that was V1, but in fact that was V2, it has been proven already). 

Edo Madara reacted to SM Naruto's FRS.

Edo Madara dodged Gaara's sand.

Edo Madara generally reacted to Gokage.

Edo Madara's clones, which are inferior to the original in speed, were so fast V2 Raikage had to block clones Susanoo punch instead of dodging it, which would have been smart.

I wont count reacting to BM Naruto's clone as a great feat, because Naruto was in a free fall.

So here you go - Edo Madara was already a speedster.

RT Madara without ayes = alive Madara without ayes in terms of speed. RT Madara, without ayes, easily outpased SM Naruto and Sai in a moment.

Alive Madara is equal to alive Hashirama physically. Alive Madara, with Edo Hashirama's SM (which could be weaker than alive Hashirama's SM due to Hashirama being reanimated without his full power), easily reacted to EMS Sasuke and dodged Edo Tobirama's attack, who is in BSM Naruto's speed class because of his performance against Juubito (Edo Tobirama tagged Juubito with FTG, tagged Juubito several times later and even his clone could tag Juubito). 

You will write that Madara had Rinnegan with EMS's precognition - i will ask you to prove his Rinnegan had EMS's precognition.

You will write that Madara was reanimated beyond his prime - i will ask you to prove Kabuto improved Madara's movement speed and reaction speed. The fact Edo Hashirama reacted to Edo Madara *in CQC WITHOUT SM*, while being weaker due to Edo not-in-full-power reanimation and due to his clone being in batlefield, renders that Kabuto arguement useless.

You will write that Hashirama's cells can amp reaction speed and movement speed - i'll ask you to prove that. 

And you will write SM RT Madara reacted to Tobirama due to Limbo - i'll ask you to prove that Limbo was there and saw Tobirama's attack. 

So yeah - alive EMS Madara is a speedster. Alive SM Hashirama is also a speedster. Because they have *feats* to say so. *They both are in BSM Naruto's speed class*.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> ...Minato...whose entire stitch is speed...is featless? WHAT? What feats do they have that put them above Minato? Tell me what? Since Minato is repeatedly said to be the fastest shinobi who ever lived.



Yes. Young, featless Obito reacted to him and could caught his arm. Prime Rinnegan Obito, who became much faster after those 17 years, couldnt do the same thing to base Gai, lol. The Ei Minato fought was young, featless and thus much weaker than prime V2 Ei. So yeah, compare to Hashirama and Madara, Minato is FEATLESS. If we are talking about speed, of course. Even Tobirama has show much superior reflexes than Minato.



> So you have them dodging Amaterasu? Since that's the feat you need to get as fast as A. Whose still slower than Minato.



Yeah - they are both fast enough to dodge Amaterasu. Read my post out there. And prime V2 Ei is >>>> Minato in terms of reflexes, reaction speed and attacking speed. The Ei Minato fought was young, featless and much slower than prime V2 Ei.



> Minato reacts to Juubi Jins. First Hokage to reach the battlefield. Only characters can even touch him are Juubi Jins or Rikudo Powered fighters. Outpaces even Eight Gated Guy on panel and reacts to his speed in the Eighth Gate.
> 
> ...so...no. Minato is faster than Hashirama and Madara. This is a ridiculous claim Starwanderer.



LOL, "reacts to Juubi Jins"... He got his hand cut off against Juubito and against Juubidara. They cut his arms effortlessly.

8 Gate Gai slowed down obviously. Should i remind you how Juubidara speedblitzed SM Edo Minato and couldnt do the same to 7 Gate Gai?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> As i remember, Naruto did that after Rikudou's boost. If thats what you are talking about, than... Here you go.


Chapter 617 it happened. Way before the Rikudo Boost. 


> Edo Madara reacted to V2 Raikage and blocked is punch point blank (of course you will tell that was V1, but in fact that was V2, it has been proven already).


If it was V2, A would have said so. Instead his hair was flat and his Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't as thick. 


> Edo Madara reacted to SM Naruto's FRS.


So could A, Sandaime Raikage, Minato, Nagato, and Naruto himself.


> Edo Madara dodged Gaara's sand.


So have a lot of people.


> Edo Madara generally reacted to Gokage.


He was blitzed by Lightened A.


> Edo Madara's clones, which are inferior to the original in speed, were so fast V2 Raikage had to block clones Susanoo punch instead of dodging it, which would have been logical.


Hair's still flat, that's V1.



> So here you go - Edo Madara was already a speedster.


No, all you've shown he isn't fast. The two feats which say V2 A are not, since A's hair is still down and his Raiton no Yoroi isn't as thick.


> RT Madara without ayes = alive Madara without ayes in terms of speed. RT Madara easily outpased SM Naruto and Sai in a moment.


RT Madara is Hashirama + Madara basically even without Sage Mode. And SM Naruto still blocked despite using lots of Senjutsu chakra beforehand.


> Alive Madara is equal to alive Hashirama physically. Alive Madara, with Edo Hashirama's SM (which could be weaker than alive Hashirama's SM due to Hashirama being reanimated without his full power), easily reacted to EMS Sasuke and dodged Edo Tobirama's attack, who is in BSM Naruto's speed class because of his performance against Juubito (Edo Tobirama tagged Juubito with FTG, tagged Juubito several times later and even his clone could tag Juubito).


Edo Tobirama only tagged Juubito in the first place by being ripped in half, using his Edo Tensei body to his advantage since he couldn't die. Its...not a clean reaction feat. If Tobirama had reacted and tagged without damage, then yeah. But as is...its not a feat you can apply. 


> You will write that Madara had Rinnegan with EMS's precognition - i will ask you to prove his Rinnegan had EMS's precognition.


No, Madara was using Shared Vision through his Limbo Clone. Saw the attack coming and avoided it.


> You will write that Madara was reanimated beyond his prime - i will ask you to prove Kabuto improved Madara's movement speed and reaction speed. The fact Edo Hashirama reacted to Edo Madara *in CQC WITHOUT SM*, while being weaker due to Edo not-in-full-power reanimation and due to his clone being in batlefield, renders that point Kabuto arguement useless.


Isn't that a fact you brought up that you want disproven to make Hashirama better than he was? Edo Hashirama wasn't THAT much weaker than he was in life, it was a miniscule difference.


> You will write that Hashirama's cells can amp reaction speed and movement speed - i'll ask you to prove that.


Look at Danzo. He's a decrepid old man without Senju Cells. With them he gained the vitality and speed to dodge a chidori despite being stabbed through the chest.


> So yeah - alive EMS Madara is a speedster. Alive SM Hashirama is also a speedster. Because they have *feats* to say so. *They both are in BSM Naruto's speed class*.


No. You're using a bunch of A>B>C logic and circular logic. If Madara is faster than A...why didn't he just _dodge_ the Amaterasu tossed at him?



StarWanderer said:


> Yes. Young, featless Obito reacted to him and could caught his arm. Prime Rinnegan Obito, who became much faster after those 17 years, couldnt do the same thing to base Gai, lol. The Ei Minato fought was young, featless and thus much weaker than prime V2 Ei. So yeah, compare to Hashirama and Madara, Minato is FEATLESS. If we are talking about speed, of course. Even Tobirama has show much superior reflexes than Minato.


1. A young Obito who had completed Madara's training so thoroughly he could be mistaken to BE Madara.
2. It was because he didn't know of Kamui at the time. Need I remind you what happened during the test of speed? Oh right. Minato won.
3. A regarded Minato as faster than him until he DIED and it wasn't until KCM Naruto appeared he got surpassed again.
4. Which is why Tobirama said Minato was superior to him?

Even the databook said that Minato was praised for his god-like speed even amongst the greats.


> Yeah - they are both fast enough to dodge Amaterasu. Read my post out there. And prime V2 Ei is >>>> Minato in terms of reflexes, reaction speed and attacking speed. The Ei Minato fought was young, featless and much slower than prime V2 Ei.


...do you hate Minato? Calling him featless, ignoring his feats...seriously do you hate him? V2 A is slower than Minato in each and every form. 

And doesn't that say the same thing? Minato and A fought countless times and Minato was always the superior. A even said that no matter what he did he couldn't surpass Minato's speed. And Minato got stronger since that clash too...

Seriously, again, do you hate Minato? 

And show me them dodging Amaterasu then.


> LOL, "reacts to Juubi Jins"... He got his hand cut off against Juubito and against Juubidara. They cut his arms effortlessly.


He reacted to first form Juubito (who is far faster than Hashirama and Tobirama) several times over. He continued to react through Juubito through the rest of the point .In fact, guess what: Juubito and Juudara are the only shinobi who remotely touched him on screen.


> 8 Gate Gai slowed down obviously. Should i remind you how Juubidara speedblitzed SM Edo Minato and couldnt do the same to 7 Gate Gai?


Eight Gated Guy was told to not slow down. If he did, the attack wouldn't work. Its a flat out feat for Minato.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That and Buddha is enormous and dwarfs any Bijuudama, much like Juubi's Laserdama.
> 
> Hair's still flat, that's V1.
> 
> ...



looool it wont 
that has been my point since but captain butthurt AKA SSM12 has refused to listen to reason and has resorted to the only thing he is capable of. ignoring me


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> Chapter 617 it happened. Way before the Rikudo Boost.



Oh, you are talking about that... Well, it was not just Naruto who cut down those Juubi's hands. And you have yet to prove Juubi's hands are as durable as Wood Golem.



> If it was V2, A would have said so. Instead his hair was flat and his Raiton Chakra Mode wasn't as thick.



Ei doesnt need to say anything to become V2. His hair is up - V2. If he was in his V1, he wouldnt say that Madara can counter *even* his speed. He would have gone V2 and gave Onoki a chance to use his Jinton offencively. Instead, he cried that he needs to up his speed to crush Madara's defences - he did that for Onoki to light him up. Also, we cant be sure his hair was flat when he attacked Madara because of point of view. His hair moves when he moves in V2: Hair's still flat, that's V1. Plus, here his hair is spikey: Hair's still flat, that's V1.



> He was blitzed by Lightened A.



He wasnt. He traced lightened Ei's movements and i am interesting of why they couldnt hit Madara himself with Aggravated Rock technique. Because Madara dodged it inside of his Susanoo? 



> Hair's still flat, that's V1.



Maybe you should look at it again? His hair was up - V2. Look at the scan attentively. Later, look at this: Hair's still flat, that's V1. And see it for yourself.



> No, all you've shown he isn't fast. The two feats which say V2 A are not, since A's hair is still down and his Raiton no Yoroi isn't as thick.



His Raiton was just as thick and his hair was up. If it wasnt V2, Raikage would have just up his speed by himself and let Onoki use his Jinton, Raikage would not say that Madara can counter *even* his speed. And lol, he used V2 against Sasuke, but he wont use V2 against Madara? Thats rediculous.

You can write again that here - Hair's still flat, that's V1. - his hair wasnt spikey. But thats wrong. First of all, the point of view from which we see how he attacks Madara. Second, his hair moves when he moves with his V2: Hair's still flat, that's V1. We cant be sure huis hair wasnt spikey because of point of view (looking at it "from above") and because his hair could move in that way because of the movements he made before punching Madara. On top of that, right before the attack, his hair was pretty much spikey and his Raiton was thick as hell: Hair's still flat, that's V1.

So yeah - *it was V2*.



> RT Madara is Hashirama + Madara basically even without Sage Mode. And SM Naruto still blocked despite using lots of Senjutsu chakra beforehand.



Hashirama cells have nothing to do with speed. And SM Naruto, although blocked, was still outpased. 



> Edo Tobirama only tagged Juubito in the first place by being ripped in half, using his Edo Tensei body to his advantage since he couldn't die. Its...not a clean reaction feat. If Tobirama had reacted and tagged without damage, then yeah. But as is...its not a feat you can apply.



Edo Tobirama tagged him with FTG mark and didnt try to dodge him. The fact is - he was still fast enough to tag Juubito with FTG mark. It is a reaction speed and attacking speed  feat.

KCM Minato did nothing by the way - he just got his arm cut off. Thats all.



> No, Madara was using Shared Vision through his Limbo Clone. Saw the attack coming and avoided it.



No he wasnt. You have yet to prove his Limbo clone was there at the moment and saw Tobirama. 

Also, you ignore the fact that his body movement speed was enough to dodge that attack.



> Isn't that a fact you brought up that you want disproven to make Hashirama better than he was? Edo Hashirama wasn't THAT much weaker than he was in life, it was a miniscule difference.



No it wasnt. Orochimaru never did any modifications to Hashirama's Edo Body. Its a different story with Edo Madara's body. And Kabuto used Orochimaru's chakra in order to perform Edo Tensei.The difference was the same as in Madara's case, maybe even bigger. 



> Look at Danzo. He's a decrepid old man without Senju Cells. With them he gained the vitality and speed to dodge a chidori despite being stabbed through the chest.



He just felt himself better, thats all. Hashirama's cells increase stamina, thus making the user feel better, younger. Also, you can see how fast Hiruzen was in his old age. Or when he was an Oro's Edo, thus even weaker than when he fought Orochimaru. 

Also, look at Third Raikage. The Age is such an issue in Narutoverse, lol.

So you have yet to prove Hashirama's cells increase speed. Edo Hashirama didnt feel the difference and reacted to Edo Madara, you know.



> No. You're using a bunch of A>B>C logic and circular logic. If Madara is faster than A...why didn't he just dodge the Amaterasu tossed at him?



Yes i do - its a cool thing to do. Especially in these debates. 

Maybe because he didnt care and could absorb it? Or maybe because it was an attack from behind? 



> 1. A young Obito who had completed Madara's training so thoroughly he could be mistaken to BE Madara.
> 2. It was because he didn't know of Kamui at the time. Need I remind you what happened during the test of speed? Oh right. Minato won.
> 3. A regarded Minato as faster than him until he DIED and it wasn't until KCM Naruto appeared he got surpassed again.
> 4. Which is why Tobirama said Minato was superior to him?
> ...



1. So what? Yes, Madara trained him, but that doesnt mean he was super-fast. He was a teenager at that moment. And, as i sayd, he lacks speed feats.
2. Maybe i should remind you that he caught Minato in chains? And it doesnt matter that he didnt know about Kamui's ability - Obito traced his physical speed and caught him with his own physical speed. Minato knew about taijutsu and knew Tobi could do some taijutsu manner when he grabbed him. But he didnt dodge that grab. Because he obviously couldnt.
3. Yeah - maybe Minato was faster than him until he died... 17 years ago.  If you think that young Ei = prime V2 Raikage Ei, than, well, you are sadly mistaken. 
4. Tobirama sayd his Shunshin was faster and that his Hiraishin was better. Thats all. Tobirama's reflexes and reaction speed are above those of KCM Minato. Look at their performance against Juubito.

Praised - lots of shinobi thought he was the fastest.  But in fact, he wasnt. The Databook never stated that Minato is the fastest shinobi in history. 



> ...do you hate Minato? Calling him featless, ignoring his feats...seriously do you hate him? V2 A is slower than Minato in each and every form.
> 
> And doesn't that say the same thing? Minato and A fought countless times and Minato was always the superior. A even said that no matter what he did he couldn't surpass Minato's speed. And Minato got stronger since that clash too...
> 
> ...



No i dont, but he is overrated a lot by fans. Minato has never, ever, fought prime V2 Ei - he fought a young featless Ei. He has never fought someone who is as fast as prime Obito or prime Raikage Ei - he fought featless characters. And he had problems with one featless character, who almost killed him.

And all of those clashes were 17 years ago. 

No i dont. And i have shown enough already.



> He reacted to first form Juubito (who is far faster than Hashirama and Tobirama) several times over. He continued to react through Juubito through the rest of the point .In fact, guess what: Juubito and Juudara are the only shinobi who remotely touched him on screen.



He lost his hand and 2 things saved him there - his Hiraishin and Tobirama's clone, who teleported Gudoudama to Juubito himself. Tobirama marked Juubito during their close confrontation while he didnt even try to dodge. Later, Juubito dodged/blocked Minato's attacks easily. And unstable Juubito kicked KCM Minato easily: Hair's still flat, that's V1.



> Eight Gated Guy was told to not slow down. If he did, the attack wouldn't work. Its a flat out feat for Minato.



He wasnt told to slow down. Re-read that chapter. He could slow down for the other team to make an opening in Gudoudama, since he had to hit the Juubidara himself to kill/seriously damage him. The fact SM Minato was effortlessly blitzed by Juubidara before that and couldnt do the same to 7 Gate Gai renders that feat useless. And Minato was not the only one who reacted there - Lee and Kakashi reacted too. And Lee was the one who threw the Kunai.

You got countered again, SuperSaiyaMan12. And i wont be surprised if you make my reputation lower again.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 2, 2015)

Because Hashirama was a BEAST. Hashirama played with Madara the entire fight on the valley of the end.

Hashirama tried to convence Madara that he was doing everything wrong the entire fight. When he saw that he had no choice, he just stabbed him on his back without any effort.

Madara FMS is weak when compared to Hashirama. Still, Madara FMS was stronger than everyone else on their generation (Tobirama, etc).

I've my doubts about Madara being stronger than Hashirama even with both Rinnegans... But, he only completely surprassed Hashirama when he got the Juubi.

Hashirama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara FMS > Tobirama

And I see Nagato and Kabuto pretty good matchups against Madara FMS.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Because Hashirama was a BEAST. Hashirama played with Madara the entire fight on the valley of the end.
> 
> Hashirama tried to convence Madara that he was doing everything wrong the entire fight. When he saw that he had no choice, he just stabbed him on his back without any effort.
> 
> ...



That fight in The Valley of the End was a very tough fight for Hashirama, even after he started to fight seriously. 

And you are scaling EMS Madara too much below Hashirama. Thats too much.

Nagato gets shockwaved by PS. Kabuto gets slaughtered, dont know why you mentioned him when EMS Madara has so many ways of killing him.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

> 4. Tobirama sayd his Shunshin was faster and that his Hiraishin was better. Thats all. Tobirama's reflexes and reaction speed are above those of KCM Minato. Look at their performance against Juubito.


Shunshin and Hiraishin are SPEED AND REFLEX based. Minato is faster than him, flat out. Minato's reflexes are superior to A's by A's own admission. Tobirama doesn't have superior reaction speed to Minato. He got torn up without being able to react to Juubito's first form while Minato danced circles around him.


> Praised - lots of shinobi thought he was the fastest.  But in fact, he wasnt. The Databook never stated that Minato is the fastest shinobi in history.


But the manga DOES. And he has the feats which show it. You're just downplaying them.




> No i dont, but he is overrated a lot by fans. Minato has never, ever, fought prime V2 Ei - he fought a young featless Ei. He has never fought someone who is as fast as prime Obito or prime Raikage Ei - he fought featless characters. And he had problems with one featless character, who almost killed him.
> 
> And all of those clashes were 17 years ago.
> 
> No i dont. And i has shown enough already.


Doesn't matter. A himself said that he can never surpass Minato's speed. Thus, even in his 40's he's still slower than Minato. And you are underrating him in favor of everyone else. 

And yes, you do. If you want to claim they are as fast or faster than V2 A, YOU HAVE TO SHOW A COMPARABLE FUCKING FEAT.



> He lost his hand and 2 things saved him there - his Hiraishin and Tobirama's clone, who teleported Gudoudama to Juubito himself. Tobirama marked Juubito during their close confrontation while he didnt even try to dodge. Later, Juubito dodged/blocked Minato's attacks easily. And unstable Juubito kicked KCM Minato easily: 544


He lost his arm but still teleported away before Juubito could follow up. Tobirama only tagged FIRST FORM JUUBITO after being gutted like a fish and using his Edo Tensei to put the tag there (given he used that explosion technique). Minato was kicked due to being caught off guard and being concerned for his son.




> He wasnt told to slow down. Re-read that chapter. He could slow down for the other team to make an opening in Gudoudama, since he had to hit the Juubidara himself to kill/seriously damage him. The fact SM Minato was effortlessly blitzed by Juubidara before that and couldnt do the same to 7 Gate Gai renders that feat useless. And Minato was not the only one who reacted there - Lee and Kakashi reacted too. And Lee was the one who threw the Kunai.
> 
> You got countered again, SuperSaiyaMan12. And i wont be surprised if you make my reputation lower again.


You didn't counter anything Star Wanderer. And I'm surprised you aren't in the red, all of your arguments are shit. Guy kept going at full speed so he could hit Madara with everything he got. Minato outsped him. Know why Juudara countered Minato so easily? The kunai fell short.

All you've shown is that you hate Minato, don't show you have any comparable feats to dodging Amaterasu, and mistakenly (and the enforcing) that A was at his full speed when all evidence shows he wasn't.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

It's just annoying how users think the Gokage vs Hashirama, Hashirama comes out ontop... when the have Onoki who can just Dust Release his ass. Makes no sense... or the newest shit of Madara being able to wipe the floor with Nagato. Also makes no sense.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 2, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> It's just annoying how users think the Gokage vs Hashirama, Hashirama comes out ontop... when the have Onoki who can just Dust Release his ass. Makes no sense... or the newest shit of Madara being able to wipe the floor with Nagato. Also makes no sense.



Well, Hashirama > Gokage is in line with what the manga has shown us belive it or not. Madara defeated the Gokage yet he still considered Hashirama his superior [1] [2]. 

As we see here Hiruzen seems intimately familiar with Jinton. It's entirely possible he faced Ōnoki in battle at some point and lived to tell the tale. After all, Hiruzen and Ōnoki are the longest reigning Kage of Konoha and Iwa respectively _in history_. Would be odd if they never met in battle considering _three_ world wars were raged during their extensive rule.

Then you have EMS Madara stomping Ōnoki and Mū . . . while not at full power. This event was one of the major traumas of Ōnoki's life. You can say Ōnoki didn't have Jinton at that point since he was young. That's  reasonable. But Mū? He definitely did. 

Hashirama is stronger than anyone I just named. It makes perfect sense he sends Ōnoki packing, and it makes absolutely _no_ sense if Hashirama was unable to replicate the feat of a non serious EMS Madara. 

As for Madara vs. Nagato. There's already a never ending debate on that topic so I don't even want to get into that. Best to keep that discussion contained there.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Well, Hashirama > Gokage is in line with what the manga has shown us belive it or not. Madara defeated the Gokage yet he still considered Hashirama his superior [1] [2].


Thunder... no, that is not what the manga has shown us.

Kamui>>Dust Release>> ..._everyone _else~!
Preta Path>>Dust Release>> ..._everyone _else~!
...I don't see Hashirama and neither do any of those techniques fall into his skillset. I'm forgetting unless you actually have Dust Release you're not doing shit to stop it.



> As we see here Hiruzen seems intimately familiar with Jinton. It's entirely possible he faced Ōnoki in battle at some point and lived to tell the tale. After all, Hiruzen and Ōnoki are the longest reigning Kage of Konoha and Iwa respectively _in history_. Would be odd if they never met in battle considering _three_ world wars were raged during their extensive rule.


Itachi was intimately familiar with Orochimaru's Eight Branches Technique. Doesn't mean he had fought it or defeated it before.



> Then you have EMS Madara stomping Ōnoki and Mū . . . while not at full power. This event was one of the major traumas of Ōnoki's life. You can say Ōnoki didn't have Jinton at that point since he was young. That's  reasonable. But Mū? He definitely did.


I'd be surprised at seeing a massive chakra god too... conjoined with genjutsu, I'm not surprised they ran. Besides Madara didn't kill them... or maybe, since you want to assume, he couldn't. Either way it wasn't shown to be a fight... and at this point we don't know if Onoki even new Dust Release.



> Hashirama is stronger than anyone I just named. It makes perfect sense he sends Ōnoki packing, and it makes absolutely _no_ sense if Hashirama was unable to replicate the feat of a non serious EMS Madara.


I've argued this so many times that this is just not the case and it is clear to see your mindset isn't changing.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> Edo Tobirama only landed a mark on Juubito after being torn in half. That's not a reaction feat, that's using his Edo Tensei form to his advantage.



He landed that mark *while* being torned apart. In other words - he reacted to Juubito's attack and used the moment when they were close to land a mark on him. Thats a reaction feat and Edo Tensei's state usage. 



> The Limbo Clones don't disappear until they're sealed or destroyed. Madara kept it there at all times.



You have yet to prove his Limbo clone saw Tobirama. Thats a big assumption from you out there.



> Even though Madara was said to be stronger than he was in life, you're still going to claim he was weaker. If Hashirama was revived by Kabuto's Edo Tensei, the Edo Tensei being complete would mean Hashirama would be brought back at full strength.



Yes he was. I dont care about Kabuto's words in that chapter. He assumed that Madara was beyond his prime. He only assumed because he didnt know about Madara's prime. The weaker Hashirama reacted to Edo Madara, who was, according to Kabuto, "beyond his prime" at that moment, yet Hashirama was reanimated without his full power, just like Tobirama and the other Hokage. With the same chakra with which Kabuto performed his Edo Tensei.

Hashirama will be as good as when he was reanimated by Orochimaru. 



> Age is a big thing in the Narutoverse. Older ninja are weaker than they were at their prime. Old Hiruzen was a shadow of what he was! Danzo was the same age as him yet he, since he had Hashirama's Cells, had better vitality and aged slower. The Sandaime Raikage never lived to old age so you don't have an argument there.



He had better vitality so he didnt feel the age effect as much as Hiruzen. He felt himself younger. But in case with Madara, it is useless, since he was reanimated in his physical prime already. And Edo Hashirama, while being weaker than alive himself, reacted to him in CQC several times. 

Edo Madara's movement speed and reaction speed wasnt increased.



> Edo Hashirama didn't even know Madara had grafted a piece of Hashirama himself onto his body. Madara was playing him the entire fight, buying time for Black Zetsu to arrive.



Um... There was no sense for Madara to play with Hashirama at all. You have no proof for that. It would be a very risking and stupid manevour for him to play with Hashirama in that fight, who can immobilise him and allow the rest of the alliance to seal him before Black Zetsu arrives.



> Except in the Narutoverse, circular logic and A>B>C logic are NOT reliable means due to the varying arsenals, specialties, etc.
> 
> Madara can sense chakra (Even Nagato could sense the buildup and react) so if Madara was fast enough to dodge Amaterasu, he would have done so. Yet...he couldn't and got hit.



A>B>C logic is a right thing to use in Narutoverse debates. So i will use it. Just like circular logic.

Because he didnt care - he absorbed it right away and laughed at that technique.



> Kamui is in and that itself extremely fast. Obito could cover insane distances before he could even blink. And no, he doesn't. You're claiming he does so you can degrade Minato's speed feats.



He does. You have yet to prove prime Obito is = vertion of himself 17 years ago. There is a huge time gap of 17 years. And young Obito has no speed feats, realy. Kamui jutsu is just a ninjutsu - i am talking about Obito's own movement speed and reaction speed. He doesnt have feats in that department.



> Minato escaped before the chains could even catch him. And here's the thing, HIRAISHIN IS MOVEMENT SPEED IN THE NARUTOVERSE.



Yet he got caught in them. Such a smart maneuvor to get caught in enemies chains which can be a part of some powerfull ninjutsu technique. or maybe he wasnt fast enough to not get caught in them? 

Hiraishin is a teleportation. 



> A's past his prime. He's in his late 40's. His prime would be in the Third Shinobi World War when he's in his 20's.
> 
> Manga flat out says Minato is faster. A even reaffirmed it in his 'prime', there's only two people who dodged his maximum speed punch: Naruto and Minato. That's it. If you ignore that it shows your biased.



Its not just about his age, but also about his chakra mastery. In Shippuden/War Arc he had Tailed Beast level chakra, which he could use for his Raiton Body Flicker. Can you prove young Ei had such a powerfull chakra? And dont you think Ei was training for 17 years after Minato's death? Do you have any proof young Ei is remotively close to prime Ei in terms of speed?

No you dont have. Young Ei is featless.

The "top speed" you are talking about was very different. Young Ei's top speed is <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< prime Ei's top speed. 

And Edo Madara blocked his V2 speed punch point blank. 



> Shunshin and Hiraishin are SPEED AND REFLEX based. Minato is faster than him, flat out. Minato's reflexes are superior to A's by A's own admission. Tobirama doesn't have superior reaction speed to Minato. He got torn up without being able to react to Juubito's first form while Minato danced circles around him.



Shunshin is a technique used to travel from point A to point B. I have never seen somebody to increase attacking speed with Shunshin - its just a travel speed technique, not combat speed technique.

As for Hiraishin, its a teleportation. 

Tobirama's performance against Juubito was better than KCM Minato's performance. Tobirama's reflexes are >>>> KCM Minato's reflexes.



> But the manga DOES. And he has the feats which show it. You're just downplaying them.



The manga doesnt. And he has no feats to say he is the fastest in history.



> Doesn't matter. A himself said that he can never surpass Minato's speed. Thus, even in his 40's he's still slower than Minato. And you are underrating him in favor of everyone else.
> 
> And yes, you do. If you want to claim they are as fast or faster than V2 A, YOU HAVE TO SHOW A COMPARABLE FUCKING FEAT.



Could never surpass, when they clashed many times... 17 years have passed after Minato's death. Ei became much faster throughout those 17 years.

And i did. 



> He lost his arm but still teleported away before Juubito could follow up. Tobirama only tagged FIRST FORM JUUBITO after being gutted like a fish and using his Edo Tensei to put the tag there (given he used that explosion technique). Minato was kicked due to being caught off guard and being concerned for his son.



He lost his arm, did nothing (unlike Tobirama, who marked Juubito) and would have been demolished if not for Tobirama's clone, who teleported Gudoudama right back at Juubito.

I also want to see a proof Tobirama can put a mark through paper tags. 

And for the rest... That 1st form of Juubito was as fast as it was later. Juubito just couldnt use his full offensive Gudoudama's potential and later lost control of Juubi's powers. After that, he regained control over Juubi's powers. Thats it. Plus, Tobirama was doing well against that so called "Second Form Juubito".

Minato was kicked and lost his arm because of his lack of reaction speed and movement speed.



> You didn't counter anything Star Wanderer. And I'm surprised you aren't in the red, all of your arguments are shit. Guy kept going at full speed so he could hit Madara with everything he got. Minato outsped him. Know why Juudara countered Minato so easily? The kunai fell short.
> 
> All you've shown is that you hate Minato, don't show you have any comparable feats to dodging Amaterasu, and mistakenly (and the enforcing) that A was at his full speed when all evidence shows he wasn't.



Know why SM Minato's movement speed was completely trashed by Juubidara? Know why SM Minato couldnt avoid Juubidara's kicks by teleporting away? 

That 8 Gate thing was countered already and you didnt provide a good answer for that.

All evidence shows he was in his V2. You got countered again. 

Oh and i dont care about you ignoring me - keep doing that. You lost this debate anyway.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 2, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Thunder... no, that is not what the manga has shown us.
> 
> Kamui>>Dust Release>> ..._everyone _else~!
> Preta Path>>Dust Release>> ..._everyone _else~!
> ...I don't see Hashirama and neither do any of those techniques fall into his skillset. I'm forgetting unless you actually have Dust Release you're not doing shit to stop it.



Yes, when Jinton got its spotlight the hype was "Only a Jinton user can defeat a Jinton user". Which can't be the case anymore because stronger shinobi than Ōnoki or Mū were introduced after that statement was made. Hashirama and Madara being perfect examples.

In Part I we had something similar with the Sannin "Only a Sannin can defeat another Sannin". Later on that became false. 

And as I showed you, EMS Madara (no Rinnegan) took out one Jinton user. Possibly _two_. So I think you're simplifying things too much here. It's not just the jutsu that matters but the shinobi as well. 

The manga flat out tells us guys like Hashirama and Madara are in another tier. Their feats suggest this as well.



> Itachi was intimately familiar with Orochimaru's Eight Branches Technique. Doesn't mean he had fought it or defeated it before.


True, but Itachi fought Orochimaru _three_ _times_ if I remember correctly. It's very likely Itachi faced Yamata during one of those bouts. That's all I'm saying.



> I'd be surprised at seeing a massive chakra god too... conjoined with genjutsu, I'm not surprised they ran. Besides Madara didn't kill them... or maybe, since you want to assume, he couldn't. Either way it wasn't shown to be a fight... and at this point we don't know if Onoki even new Dust Release.
> 
> I've argued this so many times that this is just not the case and it is clear to see your mindset isn't changing.


Seems like you're just in denial to be honest. I mean, if you really want to believe Madara couldn't kill Mū or Ōnoki if he wanted to when it's clear they lost that fight, be my guest. Did Madara kill the Gokage? No, he left them alive but on death's door. Madara doesn't like going all out against "kids". It's right there in the link I provided you. 

Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived. Do you think Hashirama couldn't defeat Kakuzu if he wanted to?


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer, be a sport and debate politely instead of patronising and belittling your opponents. It's annoying to read and, honestly, the only reason I haven't actually banned you for it yet is because I'm too ill to leave my bed and get onto my computer.

The same warning applies to the rest of you.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> It's just annoying how users think the Gokage vs Hashirama, Hashirama comes out ontop... when the have Onoki who can just Dust Release his ass.



Hashirama is faster and his mokuton is too durable for Dust Release - he could protect himself from Bijuu Dama's explosion, PS's blade and his Wood Golem could catch Bijuu Dama with its bare hands. Plus his sensing. Plus his chakra reserves. Massive AoE jutsu's. And healing. 



> or the newest shit of Madara being able to wipe the floor with Nagato.



Nagato cant do anything with PS's shockwaves. 



> StarWanderer, be a sport and debate politely instead of patronising and belittling your opponents. It's annoying to read and, honestly, the only reason I haven't actually banned you for it yet is because I'm too ill to leave my bed and get onto my computer.
> 
> The same warning applies to the rest of you.



No problem. I just hope that the other debaters will debate politely as well.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Yes, when Jinton got its spotlight the hype was "Only a Jinton user can defeat a Jinton user". Which can't be the case anymore because stronger shinobi than Ōnoki or Mū were introduced after that statement was made. Hashirama and Madara being perfect examples.


...you are being linear and power scaling off that. Just because strong characters were introduced does not mean they can stand up to Jinton. Sure with enough tactic and strength they can defeat the user but if a giant cube of white light is coming toward them they're dead.



> In Part I we had something similar with the Sannin "Only a Sannin can defeat another Sannin". Later on that became false.


I didn't once state anything like this, don't put words into my mouth or use such stupidity to reduce my argument and standpoints. This statement is exactly how this manga does not work.



> And as I showed you, EMS Madara (no Rinnegan) took out one Jinton user. Possibly _two_. So I think you're simplifying things too much here. It's not just the jutsu that matters but the shinobi as well.


He never took them out... nothing suggest that. All I saw was a grand display of power that shocked Onoki and Mu; nothing more.



> The manga flat out tells us guys like Hashirama and Madara are in another tier. Their feats suggest this as well.


I'm not saying they're not. I am suggesting that Kage level fighter can be put down by fighters under their tier as well. Tiers don't really mean anything.



> True, but Itachi fought Orochimaru _three_ _times_ if I remember correctly. It's very likely Itachi faced Yamata during one of those bouts. That's all I'm saying.


Not once was it suggested Itachi fought the Eight Branches before.



> Seems like you're just in denial to be honest. I mean, if you really want to believe Madara couldn't kill Mū or Ōnoki if he wanted to when it's clear they lost that fight, be my guest. Did Madara kill the Gokage? No, he left them alive but on death's door. Madara doesn't like going all out against "kids". It's right there in the link I provided you.


I'm just being truthful. Madara did not leave Onoki on death's door. That scan you showed me does not prove Madara did anything of what you suggest. Please stop allowing the anime to sink into these debates, Thunder.



> Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived. Do you think Hashirama couldn't defeat Kakuzu if he wanted to?


Do you know the conditions of that encounter? No, well, stop talking about it and give me facts, nothing but facts.


StarWanderer said:


> Hashirama is faster and his mokuton is too durable for Dust Release - he could protect himself from Bijuu Dama's explosion, PS's blade and his Wood Golem could catch Bijuu Dama with its bare hands. Plus his sensing. Plus his chakra reserves. Massive AoE jutsu's. And healing.


Yes Hashirama is faster than Onoki the Fence-Sitter, yet if Hashirama is apprehended and doesn't see Jinton coming - what can he do? He's gonna' see nothing, he's gonna die. 

Although... your argument about the Dust Release not being able to get through the Mokuton made me laugh. You clearly don't understand how this jutsu works.



> Nagato cant do anything with PS's shockwaves.


I never said he could. I just thought you should note though... Nagato is more durable than a mountain.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 2, 2015)

^ Except Edo Madara who has inferior speed and reactions could actually perceive Jinton and outrun it somewhat.


----------



## ShadoLord (Mar 2, 2015)

Hashirama and Madara treats 100% Kyuubi like a toy.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Except Edo Madara who has inferior speed and reactions could actually perceive Jinton and outrun it somewhat.


Pardon, can you even begin to clarify where you're getting this information from and show me your proofs?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Except Edo Madara who has inferior speed and reactions could actually perceive Jinton and outrun it somewhat.


Edo Madara never was said to have inferior speed or reactions to his living self dude. Kabuto explicitly said he's stronger than he was in his prime and has shown so repeatedly. Just because he decided to play possum and fool Edo Hashirama doesn't make him weaker.



Wave said:


> Hashirama and Madara treats 100% Kyuubi like a toy.


Hashirama's best attack couldn't scratch Kurama and Madara can't bring out Kurama's full power.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 2, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> It's just annoying how users think the Gokage vs Hashirama, Hashirama comes out ontop... when the have Onoki who can just Dust Release his ass. Makes no sense... or the newest shit of Madara being able to wipe the floor with Nagato. Also makes no sense.



Yet madara himself stated that the gokages are clowns infront of hashirama in every way shape or form, we have gokages shitting their pants infront of PS which is edo madaras full power. Something which base hashrama has shown the ability to counter and match 

And in SM, hashirama took out PS and a full kyuubi all on his own, yet somehow he is below the likes of gokage? 

As for madara vs nagato Lol I don't want to get into that 
But with PS he gets sliced in half, without it madara gets spanked


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

Can any of you even read... I never said Hashirama was below the likes of the Gokage. Individually he is better than each of them all round but together, they could take him down if they relied on the Dust Release. He has ab absolutely no counter for that.


----------



## ShadoLord (Mar 2, 2015)

His 1,000 Arm Bhudda would smash the gokage to death

That thing beat Kurama+Perfect Susanoo(the very one that destroyed the Gokage).


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

Wave said:


> His 1,000 Arm Bhudda would smash the gokage to death
> 
> That thing beat Kurama+Perfect Susanoo(the very one that destroyed the Gokage).


Stripped Perfect Susano'o off Kurama, but Kurama was fine and in fighting condition after. The Biju took Choju Kebetsu without getting dented while Perfect Susano'o was stripped off.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 2, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Can any of you even read... I never said Hashirama was below the likes of the Gokage. Individually he is better than each of them all round but together, they could take him down if they relied on the Dust Release. He has ab absolutely no counter for that.



For jinton well mokuryu says hi


----------



## Thunder (Mar 2, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Can any of you even read... I never said Hashirama was below the likes of the Gokage. Individually he is better than each of them all round but together, they could take him down if they relied on the Dust Release. He has ab absolutely no counter for that.



Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived

Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived

?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> For jinton well mokuryu says hi


Mokuton Ryu can't absorb Ninjutsu. Against its only, I repeat ONLY attempt, it was crushed.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Edo Madara never was said to have inferior speed or reactions to his living self dude. Kabuto explicitly said he's stronger than he was in his prime and has shown so repeatedly. Just because he decided to play possum and fool Edo Hashirama doesn't make him weaker.



 If you take things literally, you also have to take in account that Kabuto literally stated he had no idea how powerful Madara was at his prime and wanted Madara to show him.

 Madara also boasted about how powerful he had become when he was revived without even having his eyes. It's not ridiculous to assume Edo Madara was weaker than Alive Madara considering he still fought equally with Hashirama despite Hashirama not being revived at full power which was stated by Tobirama.




> Hashirama's best attack couldn't scratch Kurama and Madara can't bring out Kurama's full power.



 This is not because of Madara's resistance and the fact that PS is durable enough to tank a Bijuudama despite it not being Stabilized? You're downplaying Hashirama here. 

 Why couldn't Madara bring out Kurama's full power? Madara had completely control rather easily and nothing implied he struggled to maintain that control. It's not like the Juubi where Madara and Obito couldn't bring out the Juubi's full power due to being unable to completely control it. Even then, Juubito could bring out Juubi's full power without having complete control over the Juubi. If an inferior MS user such as Obito can tame the Kyuubi, then why can't Madara who's a far superior EMS user control Kurama and use his full power?


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived
> 
> Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived
> 
> ?



I cannot debate with you because you don't know how Dust Release works.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If you take things literally, you also have to take in account that Kabuto literally stated he had no idea how powerful Madara was at his prime and wanted Madara to show him.
> 
> Madara also boasted about how powerful he had become when he was revived without even having his eyes. It's not ridiculous to assume Edo Madara was weaker than Alive Madara considering he still fought equally with Hashirama despite Hashirama not being revived at full power which was stated by Tobirama.


Edo Madara had the Rinnegan + Mokuton + Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. He was far more powerful than he was when he was alive, NarutoX28. Why would he be WEAKER than his pure EMS Incarnation with all those upgrades?





> This is not because of Madara's resistance and the fact that PS is durable enough to tank a Bijuudama despite it not being Stabilized? You're downplaying Hashirama here.


A standard Bijudama, no more powerful than the rest of the Biju's dude. And even then, Madara had to level up and Hashirama had to use a defensive attack just to survive it. And I'm not downplaying Hashirama, Choju Kebetsu couldn't damage Kurama even after Susanoo was stripped off. 


> Why couldn't Madara bring out Kurama's full power? Madara had completely control rather easily and nothing implied he struggled to maintain that control. It's not like the Juubi where Madara and Obito couldn't bring out the Juubi's full power due to being unable to completely control it. Even then, Juubito could bring out Juubi's full power without having complete control over the Juubi. If an inferior MS user such as Obito can tame the Kyuubi, then why can't Madara who's a far superior EMS user control Kurama and use his full power?


Neither Madara or Obito could bring out Kurama's full power, or the Juubi due to not being synced with them. Madara turned Kurama into a mindless unthinking beast which randomly threw his power around instead of using it intelligently. That was repeated with the Juubi given they couldn't use its supercharged Bijudama or alter the size and shape of it. Only Perfect Jinchuriki can bring out a Biju's full power given they have full mastery of the chakra AND can supercharge the Biju's Bijudama. 

We see this when Naruto creates a Bijudama powerful enough to deflect a COMBINED Bijudama from five Biju. Madara is unlikely to do the same since he doesn't think Kurama can do it on his own.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 2, 2015)

This scan here shows Onoki in the sky... somewhere Hashirama isn't touching him for shit. About to destroy the entirety of Turtle Island.

Turtle Island's Size >> Anything Hashirama's got...


Link.

Hashirama can lose to Onoki.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 2, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I cannot debate with you because you don't know how Dust Release works.



You're right. You can't debate with me.

You can't debate with me because I'm not going to waste my time responding to you anymore.

Debate with someone else.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 3, 2015)

I just want everyone to know, Thunder, things putting up a wall will stop Dust Release from getting to where it's be fired. Don't tell me why I can't debate with you changing the reason for no god damn reason... I told you why and yet you're ignoring that very fact. Shows what kind of person you are a liar, ignorant, a too cool for school kinda fool.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 3, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> This scan here shows Onoki in the sky... *somewhere Hashirama isn't touching him for shit*. About to destroy the entirety of Turtle Island.
> 
> Turtle Island's Size >> Anything Hashirama's got...
> 
> ...



Hashi made 10 gates fall from the sky to pin down all ten of the the Juubi's tails, he made another gate fall down behind the Juubi's head, and he also made one gate fall from the sky down onto Obito right before he had a shitload more fall from the sky  when each gate was bigger then the last in size. So the whole "Hashirama isn't touching him for shit" isn't true as the gates provide a way for Hashi to "touch" Onoki.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> This scan here shows Onoki in the sky... somewhere Hashirama isn't touching him for shit. About to destroy the entirety of Turtle Island.
> 
> Turtle Island's Size >> Anything Hashirama's got...
> 
> ...



Hashirama would rape Oonoki. Physically and metaphysically.

Grabs him with Mokuton before he can go anywhere. Then the rest is straight up 50 Shades of Wood.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Stripped Perfect Susano'o off Kurama, but Kurama was fine and in fighting condition after. The Biju took Choju Kebetsu without getting dented while Perfect Susano'o was stripped off.



Because PS was covering the Kyuubi and took all the hits.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Edo Madara had the Rinnegan + Mokuton + Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. He was far more powerful than he was when he was alive, NarutoX28. Why would he be WEAKER than his pure EMS Incarnation with all those upgrades?



 I don't know. Maybe it's because his Mokuton and Rinnegan was countered by BM Naruto and the Gokage. It's meaningless. If it wasn't, then he would've used it against Hashirama who he wanted to defeat.



> A standard Bijudama, no more powerful than the rest of the Biju's dude. And even then, Madara had to level up and Hashirama had to use a defensive attack just to survive it. And I'm not downplaying Hashirama, Choju Kebetsu couldn't damage Kurama even after Susanoo was stripped off.



 Except Wood Golem grabbed Kurama like a cute little puppy. One can downplay Madara here by stating that Madara couldn't do anything about a weakened Buddha reaching out to grab Kurama, but 

 Except 50% Kurama has shown greater output than any of the Bijuus can create. Hell, their Bijuudama was blown away by sheer Shunshin. I don't understand why 100% Kurama who is superior to 50% Kurama is unable to create Bijuudamas that are superior to each of the Bijuus.



> Neither Madara or Obito could bring out Kurama's full power,



 They couldn't even though MS Obito could command Kurama to do whatever he had wanted him to do?



> Madara turned Kurama into a mindless unthinking beast which randomly threw his power around instead of using it intelligently.



 No he didn't. He had complete control over what he had wanted Kurama to do. This is clear as shown here: Link

 The only time Madara had lost control over Kurama and caused it to be a mindless beast when Hashirama was interrupting Madara's control.



> That was repeated with the Juubi given they couldn't use its supercharged Bijudama or alter the size and shape of it. Only Perfect Jinchuriki can bring out a Biju's full power given they have full mastery of the chakra AND can supercharge the Biju's Bijudama.



 Except that this was because Obito and Madara were struggling to even control the Juubi. Madara was not when he was controlling 100% Kurama. Genjutsu allowed Madara to control the chakra flow of the target's cerebral nervous system. Since Madara had completel control over Kurama and never struggled to maintain it, then by that logic, he should have complete control over Kurama's chakra flow.




> We see this when Naruto creates a Bijudama powerful enough to deflect a COMBINED Bijudama from five Biju. Madara is unlikely to do the same since he doesn't think Kurama can do it on his own.



 Where's the scan that suggests Madara not believing Kurama can do it on his own?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't know. Maybe it's because his Mokuton and Rinnegan was countered by BM Naruto and the Gokage. It's meaningless. If it wasn't, then he would've used it against Hashirama who he wanted to defeat.


He has powers he didn't have in life. He has Hashirama's powers AND the fucking Rinnegan. NarutoX28, think about it. He has powers he never had in life. He was basically a amalgamation of Madara AND Hashirama TOGETHER. 




> Except Wood Golem grabbed Kurama like a cute little puppy. One can downplay Madara here by stating that Madara couldn't do anything about a weakened Buddha reaching out to grab Kurama, but


That was Shinsusenju, NOT Mokujin. Get your jutsu right. And Madara panicked and abandoned Kurama since he didn't know about his other abilities.



> Except 50% Kurama has shown greater output than any of the Bijuus can create. Hell, their Bijuudama was blown away by sheer Shunshin. I don't understand why 100% Kurama who is superior to 50% Kurama is unable to create Bijuudamas that are superior to each of the Bijuus.


Since Madara can't control the output or supercharge said Bijudama's. He turned Kurama, again, into a mindless, unthinking beast who couldn't focus or control its own power. BM and BSM Naruto however? CAN draw upon the full might from Kurama since they can mold the chakra better, focus it, and supercharge it.




> They couldn't even though MS Obito could command Kurama to do whatever he had wanted him to do?


Since according to MS Obito and Madara? Biju are unintelligent, unthinking beasts who can't bring their power out. MS Obito doesn't know how to do a Super Bijudama, thus he can't command Kurama to do so due to the mindrape.




> No he didn't. He had complete control over what he had wanted Kurama to do. This is clear as shown here: Hashirama: That wood dragon will *slowly* drain your chakra! It'll negate that ninjutsu you're using to drain all that chakra!
> 
> The only time Madara had lost control over Kurama and caused it to be a mindless beast when Hashirama was interrupting Madara's control.


Yeah, what he wanted Kurama to do. Since he thought Kurama was an unthinking beast, he couldn't bring out his full power. 

Again, what is it so hard about Madara thinking that the Biju are stupid, mindless animals who require the Uchiha to guide them. This opinion means he can't bring out Kurama's full power like Naruto can.


> Except that this was because Obito and Madara were struggling to even control the Juubi. Madara was not when he was controlling 100% Kurama. Genjutsu allowed Madara to control the chakra flow of the target's cerebral nervous system. Since Madara had completel control over Kurama and never struggled to maintain it, then by that logic, he should have complete control over Kurama's chakra flow.


Again, I reiterate: Madara thinks Kurama is a mindless, unthinking beasts and treats and uses him as such. Thus he had no grasp of what Kurama could _really do._ Unless you show him making Kurama do Super Bijudama's like Naruto can, its as simple as that.





> Where's the scan that suggests Madara not believing Kurama can do it on his own?


Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!

Since he thinks Kurama can't control his own power, is so stupid and unintelligent, he can't bring out the full power of him. Or any Biju for that matter. Since again, he turns them into a mindless, growling beast.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 3, 2015)

> Yes Hashirama is faster than Onoki the Fence-Sitter, yet if Hashirama is apprehended and doesn't see Jinton coming - what can he do? He's gonna' see nothing, he's gonna die.
> 
> Although... your argument about the Dust Release not being able to get through the Mokuton made me laugh. You clearly don't understand how this jutsu works.



He can see Jinton coming, because he himself is a sensor. And in his SM, he is even better sensor. 

But i understand that Onoki's and Mu's feats with Jinton are not good enough to say they can go through Hashirama's most powerfull mokuton constructs. I want to see a proof Dust Release can dismantle something as durable and dense as Hashirama's most powerfull wood constructs. 



> I never said he could. I just thought you should note though... Nagato is more durable than a mountain.



Show me Nagato's durability feats that are good enough to say he can withstand something powerfull enough to cut mountains and Hashirama's mokuton constructs.



> Edo Madara never was said to have inferior speed or reactions to his living self dude. Kabuto explicitly said he's stronger than he was in his prime and has shown so repeatedly. Just because he decided to play possum and fool Edo Hashirama doesn't make him weaker.



Kabuto's words prove nothing. Kabuto didnt know anything about Madara's prime. And he wasnt playing with Hashirama. There was no sense for him to do something like that.

And yes - Edo Tensei affects physical stats. Edo Madara couldnt go out of Hashirama's Great Gates and could be sealed by Sai's seal. When he was ressurrected, he easily went out of Hashirama's Gates and Sai's seal. Hashirama himself commented that Madara restored his full power.

Also, do you remember how physically "good" were Orochimaru's Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama? How fast and strong they were? They were awful compare to their alive vertions. 



> Hashirama's best attack couldn't scratch Kurama and Madara can't bring out Kurama's full power.



Hashirama's best attack partly crushed his PS, which could easily withstand full Kurama's Bijuu Dama unscratched while not being stabilised.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 3, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Can any of you even read... I never said Hashirama was below the likes of the Gokage.* Individually he is better than each of them all round but together, they could take him down if they relied on the Dust Release.* He has ab absolutely no counter for that.



the irony! when the manga has completely showed and flat out told its dumb readers that hashirama/madara are well well above the likes of gokage, 

the whole fight against the gokage, emphasised on how much hashirama is ahead of them, and yes it was them as a team, not just individually, 

as for dust release is not doing jack shit, 

the biggest fallacy for jinton is that people believe that it can atomise anything, yet they couldnt be more wrong, 
*it needs to have enough energy output, in-order to dismantle its target, *
its affect is turning the target into dust, but it still has an energy level, and if it isnt enough then the target is not getting dismantled, its as simple as that, 

so things like PS, SS or the juubi are out of the question 

and even if we resort to such fallacy, jinton gets intercepted by myojinmon, or any other mokuton,


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 3, 2015)

> He has powers he didn't have in life. He has Hashirama's powers AND the fucking Rinnegan. NarutoX28, think about it. He has powers he never had in life. He was basically a amalgamation of Madara AND Hashirama TOGETHER.



Edo Madara has powers which EMS Madara didnt have, but in terms of physical stats, he is inferior to alive EMS Madara. 



> That was Shinsusenju, NOT Mokujin. Get your jutsu right. And Madara panicked and abandoned Kurama since he didn't know about his other abilities.



He abandoned Kurama because he couldnt do anything else there. 



> This scan here shows Onoki in the sky... somewhere Hashirama isn't touching him for shit. About to destroy the entirety of Turtle Island.
> 
> Turtle Island's Size >> Anything Hashirama's got...
> 
> ...



No he doesnt. First of all, he didnt kill the turtle. He havent shown Dust Release strong enough to damage Hashirama's most powerfull mokuton constructs. 

Hashirama can exhauste Onoki by protecting himself from Jinton with his mokuton everytime Onoki uses Jinton. Or he can kill Onoki before he is in the air.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Mar 3, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> This really isn't as outlandish as you're making it seem. Base revived Madara blitzed Sage Naruto (well at least, almost did) - someone explicitly proven to be as fast as or quicker than the Third Raikage - from a distance of 15-20 meters; that requires Ay's maximum level of speed or something near it.




That's not really Base man. Remember, Madara was "enhanced" and such. Case in point, revived Madara has Hashiboob. Take Hashiboob and any other enhancements away, and it might be a different story... then again, Madara was blind with no eyes. On the other hand, he also had access to Gedo Mazo.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 3, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> That's not really Base man. Remember, Madara was "enhanced" and such. Case in point, revived Madara has Hashiboob. Take Hashiboob and any other enhancements away, and it might be a different story... then again, Madara was blind with no eyes. On the other hand, he also had access to Gedo Mazo.



Madara's enchancements have nothing to do with his speed. In fact, RT Madara was as fast as EMS Madara, but without EMS.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Mar 3, 2015)

kishi explained why clearly


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 3, 2015)

What Bkprince said. 
kishi made the effort to explain why they got such hype. 
they are basically what naruto and sasuke would have been if not for the SoP boost for no reason. 

so quite clearly till naruto and sasuke got their boost, hashirama and madara exceeded every single no SoP related person by a gooood margin


----------



## Thunder (Mar 3, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I just want everyone to know, Thunder, things putting up a wall will stop Dust Release from getting to where it's be fired. Don't tell me why I can't debate with you changing the reason for no god damn reason... I told you why and yet you're ignoring that very fact. *Shows what kind of person you are a liar, ignorant, a too cool for school kinda fool*.



Oh, damn. I'm still reeling from that one. Moving on.



> *Databook 3 - Kuchiyose: Sanjuu Rashoumon: *
> Summoning: Triple Rashoumon* (口寄せ・三重羅生門, Kuchiyose: Sanjuu Rashoumon)
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Defensive
> User: Orochimaru
> ...


And that's just _three_ Rashōmon gates. Summoned by a weakened Orochimaru. Hashirama summoned _five_ instantly. They were enough to change the trajectory of Kurama's Bijūdama equipped with a perfect Susano sword. A far more powerful attack than Jinton. It's like you have no concept of scale in this manga. The attacks Hashirama and Madara causally throw around level mountains and form valleys. 

So again: the statement you made earlier that I was responding to (Hashirama has no counter to Jinton) is false. A quadruple Rashōmon defense will stop a Jinton beam fired in a straight path since a special enchantment is cast on each gate. If Ōnoki is in the air that's another story, sure. But Hashirama is able to, y'know, dodge? He operates in a completely different speed tier.

You completely ignored the second scan I posted of Shin Sūsenju. Please enlighten us since you seem to have a better grasp of the manga than anyone here: how the hell does Ōnoki defeat this jutsu before he's obliterated by it? How does Ōnoki free himself from Senpō: Myōjinmon when it kept the Jūbi at bay? 

Oh, and the scan you posted of Ōnoki saying he'll destroy Turtle Island? It's a _mistranslation_. You're living in the past. The correct translation only says Turtle Island would be _killed_ not destroyed. Turtle Island is alive. Putting a hole through it would cause problem for everyone on the island. 

We already know Ōnoki cannot create a big enough Jinton beam to blow up the whole thing. Which is why Tsunade used her Byakugō chakra to help him generate this large Jinton cube (which was still dwarfed by perfect Susano, Shin Sūsenju is even bigger). Remember this scene with Sakura and Obito? Same deal there.

I suggest you go back and study the manga and databooks before spouting off any more erroneous crap.


----------



## Deleted member 175252 (Mar 3, 2015)

Because Nardo and Sasgay are dumbass characters with free powerups who are really in fact noobs


----------



## Empathy (Mar 3, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> This scan here shows Onoki in the sky... somewhere Hashirama isn't touching him for shit. About to destroy the entirety of Turtle Island.
> 
> Turtle Island's Size >> Anything Hashirama's got...
> 
> ...



Island-busting jinton is a mistranslation (correct one says Onoki could've just killed the turtle, not obliterated the entire thing). Onoki's biggest, baddest jinton that was supercharged by Tsunade and took out twenty-five _Susanoos_, didn't come close to island size.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why shouldn't they have surpassed them before it?


Because Kishi never shaded some light on other Naruto characters that might or not have surpassed them before, not to mention Madara's and Hashirama's influence made a significant impact on the village of Konoha and the surrounding ones. 

That's why Kishi puts them both on pedestals compared to their peers.


----------



## Raniero (Mar 3, 2015)

Because they belong there.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He has powers he didn't have in life. He has Hashirama's powers AND the fucking Rinnegan. NarutoX28, think about it. He has powers he never had in life. He was basically a amalgamation of Madara AND Hashirama TOGETHER.



 Okay, yet they were useless against the Gokage and was countered by even BM Naruto (after a struggle). 

 That's an exaggeration. Madara has inferior Mokuton and sure he has the Rinnegan, but it was completely useless against his fight with Hashirama. The only thing it did was boost his chakra reserves and grant him Mokuton ninjutsu. It really did nothing besides that and like I said, his Mokuton proved to be inferior to Hashirama's.





> That was Shinsusenju, NOT Mokujin. Get your jutsu right. And Madara panicked and abandoned Kurama since he didn't know about his other abilities.



 It was Wood Golem that grabbed Kurama though.

 Kurama has other abilities? I doubt a Weakened Kurama would've helped him much to be honest, especially when he can't super charge a Bijuudama in time to stop Hashirama's Buddha.




> Since Madara can't control the output or supercharge said Bijudama's. He turned Kurama, again, into a mindless, unthinking beast who couldn't focus or control its own power. BM and BSM Naruto however? CAN draw upon the full might from Kurama since they can mold the chakra better, focus it, and supercharge it.



 Molding chakra only allowed Naruto to use his own chakra while using Bijuu Mode which was helpful considering he didn't need to rely on all of Kurama's Chakra to use Bijuu Mode. Even when Naruto was gaining more mastery of using BM, that in no way implied his Bijuu Mode was constantly getting stronger because it wasn't.

 But like I said, Madara can draw Kurama's full power considering he has complete control over his chakra flow, meaning he can focus it and supercharge Bijuudamas. Complete control should logically mean he has full control over Kurama's powers unlike the Juubi which its full power couldn't have been drawn out due to having limited control.





> Since according to MS Obito and Madara? Biju are unintelligent, unthinking beasts who can't bring their power out. MS Obito doesn't know how to do a Super Bijudama, thus he can't command Kurama to do so due to the mindrape.



 What leads you to think MS Obito doesn't know how to do a Super Bijuudama?

 It doesn't matter if he believes they are unintelligent. I don't see how this relates to Madara and Obito suddenly not able to control its power. Madara and Obito only considered the Juubi mindless during their control yet never has done so with Kurama, so I believe it's safe to say that at least Madara had full control over the Bijuu.

 Hell, Obito was able to use the 5 Bijuu's full power and supercharge their Bijuudamas despite not being a Perfect Jinchuuriki. And guess what? He himself did not have complete control over the Bijuu as it was stated that he struggled maintaining that control.





> Yeah, what he wanted Kurama to do. Since he thought Kurama was an unthinking beast, he couldn't bring out his full power.



 That in no way implies that at all.



> Again, what is it so hard about Madara thinking that the Biju are stupid, mindless animals who require the Uchiha to guide them. This opinion means he can't bring out Kurama's full power like Naruto can.



 He only claimed Kurama had an unstable force until he himself went out of his way to control his power. That doesn't help unless you're literally stating that 100% Kurama cannot bring out his own full power which is not true.




> Again, I reiterate: Madara thinks Kurama is a mindless, unthinking beasts and treats and uses him as such. Thus he had no grasp of what Kurama could _really do._ Unless you show him making Kurama do Super Bijudama's like Naruto can, its as simple as that.



 Again, that was prior to taming the beast. I don't see how this helps your argument.






> Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!
> 
> Since he thinks Kurama can't control his own power, is so stupid and unintelligent, he can't bring out the full power of him. Or any Biju for that matter. Since again, he turns them into a mindless, growling beast.



 He's outright saying that since Kurama cannot control his own power (or so he believes), then Madara will be well capable of bringing out Kurama's power. Of course, Kurama not being able to use his full power is contradicted, but Madara's statement of being able to use Kurama's full power is not, so unless you can contradict that 2nd portion of Madara's statement, my point still stands.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Mokuton Ryu can't absorb Ninjutsu. Against its only, I repeat ONLY attempt, it was crushed.



It absorbed Madara's absorption just fine.  Madara's absorption could absorb byako Jinton.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Okay, yet they were useless against the Gokage and was countered by even BM Naruto (after a struggle).


Useless? They nearly defeated the Gokage several times over and only failed since Madara was _playing_ with them. Madara wasn't remotely serious until the end of the fight. 


> That's an exaggeration. Madara has inferior Mokuton and sure he has the Rinnegan, but it was completely useless against his fight with Hashirama. The only thing it did was boost his chakra reserves and grant him Mokuton ninjutsu. It really did nothing besides that and like I said, his Mokuton proved to be inferior to Hashirama's.


Question: When was it EVER said Madara's Mokuton was inferior to Hashirama's? That was never said, shown, or claimed by ANYONE in the manga. All the Mokuton Madara used were on the same size AND scale as Hashirama's. And all evidence points to Madara not using his Rinnegan against Hashirama in the first place since he was luring him into a false sense of security AND buying time for Black Zetsu arrive so he could resurrect himself. Throughout the entire battle with Hashriama, he only used melee or his EMS abilities. That's it. He kept the fact he could use Mokuton a secret from him. He kept what his Rinnegan could do a secret from Hashirama. Anyone who thinks Madara was going all out in that fight instead of just dicking around to have fun really needs to re-exeamine his character. 






> It was Wood Golem that grabbed Kurama though.


Shinsusenju grabbed Kurama Mokujin applied the suppression seal.


> Kurama has other abilities? I doubt a Weakened Kurama would've helped him much to be honest, especially when he can't super charge a Bijuudama in time to stop Hashirama's Buddha.


Forgot Kurama's Evil Sensing (where he could avoid attacks by sensing the intent) and his roars (which would have blown away Hashirama's Mokujin), and his Bijudama laser? And Kurama wasn't weakened.





> Molding chakra only allowed Naruto to use his own chakra while using Bijuu Mode which was helpful considering he didn't need to rely on all of Kurama's Chakra to use Bijuu Mode. Even when Naruto was gaining more mastery of using BM, that in no way implied his Bijuu Mode was constantly getting stronger because it wasn't.
> 
> But like I said, Madara can draw Kurama's full power considering he has complete control over his chakra flow, meaning he can focus it and supercharge Bijuudamas. Complete control should logically mean he has full control over Kurama's powers unlike the Juubi which its full power couldn't have been drawn out due to having limited control.


If Madara had full control over Kurama's powers, why did Kurama never use chakra roars? His Bijudama variants? His Super Bijudama? His evil sensing? Seriously, Madara just showed the basics of what a Biju could do whenever he controlled Kurama since that's ALL he thought Kurama could do.






> What leads you to think MS Obito doesn't know how to do a Super Bijuudama?


Since when he controlled Kurama, Kurama never did anything that strong?


> It doesn't matter if he believes they are unintelligent. I don't see how this relates to Madara and Obito suddenly not able to control its power. Madara and Obito only considered the Juubi mindless during their control yet never has done so with Kurama, so I believe it's safe to say that at least Madara had full control over the Bijuu.


Obito and Madara never brought out Kurama's full might. No Super Bijudama's. No Bijudama laser. No defensive roars. No chakra roar shields.


> Hell, Obito was able to use the 5 Bijuu's full power and supercharge their Bijuudamas despite not being a Perfect Jinchuuriki. And guess what? He himself did not have complete control over the Bijuu as it was stated that he struggled maintaining that control.


Obito had to use FIVE Biju to create _one_ Super Bijudama. While Bee and Naruto only needed their OWN Biju to do it themselves. Hell even after his chakra was drained, Kurama could do a Super Bijudama on his own while still having his mind. 






> That in no way implies that at all.


Kinda does. Knowing the Biju isn't a mindless beast, and knowing its name gives the user its full abilities.




> He only claimed Kurama had an unstable force until he himself went out of his way to control his power. That doesn't help unless you're literally stating that 100% Kurama cannot bring out his own full power which is not true.


Kurama can bring out his own full power, but Madara, who again thinks he's not intelligent or a mindless beast, cannot due to that. Madara's own opinion of the Biju limits his control. We see what happens when a Jinchuriki knows the Biju's name, acknowledges it as a thinking, living being, etc. It is able to draw upon the full might of the beast.





> Again, that was prior to taming the beast. I don't see how this helps your argument.


 Since Madara's opinion limits what can be done? Do you see Kurama using any strategy while being mindraped under Madara or Obito's control? No, he's just unleashing his power randomly while acting like a rabid dog.







> He's outright saying that since Kurama cannot control his own power (or so he believes), then Madara will be well capable of bringing out Kurama's power. Of course, Kurama not being able to use his full power is contradicted, but Madara's statement of being able to use Kurama's full power is not, so unless you can contradict that 2nd portion of Madara's statement, my point still stands.


Given Madara was unable to use Kurama's other abilities, make Super Bijudama's or other Bijudama Variants, even being unable to pull off a simple chakra roar? Yeah, Madara wasn't able to pull off Kurama's full might.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It absorbed Madara's absorption just fine.  Madara's absorption could absorb byako Jinton.


No, it didn't absorb Madara's absorption jutsu. It created a _feedback loop._ Madara absorbs chakra from the wood dragon, the wood dragon absorbs the chakra right back and it was basically a tug of war.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2015)

Geeze, all these old posters coming out like it's a Gokage reunion.  Plus a lot of people I've never seen before.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 3, 2015)

For all of you that responded to me, I'll be back later.





Empathy said:


> Island-busting jinton is a mistranslation (correct one says Onoki could've just killed the turtle, not obliterated the entire thing). Onoki's biggest, baddest jinton that was supercharged by Tsunade and took out twenty-five _Susanoos_, didn't come close to island size.



Can you find me the correct translation, bro? I mean it doesn't really matter if the turtle was killed in regards to the turtle being completely vaporized. Still this kinda thing happens... in translation errors.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

First of all, Wood Dragon can absorb ninjutsu, which is chakra, since it could absorb chakra in the past. It could absorb Naruto's Kurama Avatar, it negated Preta Path etc. 



> Can you find me the correct translation, bro? I mean it doesn't really matter if the turtle was killed in regards to the turtle being completely vaporized. Still this kinda thing happens... in translation errors.



Does that matter? Can you show me how Onoki destroys that turtle, or something comparable to Hashirama's wood constructs in durability?

Bijuu Dama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Onoki's, or Mu's Jinton, because it contains much more powerfull chakra. It doesnt matter how Jinton works - it is still weaker than Bijuu Dama and cant vaporize Hashirama's mokuton constructs, with which Hashirama could catch Bijuu Dama, withstand Bijuu Dama's explosion and catch Perfect Susanoo's blade.

Their Jinton lacks *feats*.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2015)

> No, it didn't absorb Madara's absorption jutsu. It created a feedback loop. Madara absorbs chakra from the wood dragon, the wood dragon absorbs the chakra right back and it was basically a tug of war.



Okay, so ignoring that a loop isn't a tug of war, ...  this manga actually had chakra tugs of war in it.  Tugs of war for souls and bijuu and the fate of the universe.  And a DNA sword.

I am so done for tonight.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 4, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Okay, so ignoring that a loop isn't a tug of war, ...  this manga actually had chakra tugs of war in it.  Tugs of war for souls and bijuu and the fate of the universe.  And a DNA sword.
> 
> I am so done for tonight.


...I was using it as a figure of speech.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Geeze, all these old posters coming out like it's a Gokage reunion.  Plus a lot of people I've never seen before.



Imaginary ninja battles just never lose their appeal. 

Back to your tug-of-war with SSM.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

I am waiting for SSM12 to reply to my previous post...


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

And by the way, EMS Sasuke, BSM Naruto and Shinobi Alliance members "defeated" Juubito only and *ONLY* due to his mental instability and his doubts.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 4, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wasn't Sage Naruto not in the best condition against revived Madara+? Considering he lobbed a Odama Rasenshuriken that could be like 2-2.5 normal Rasenshuriken's worth of Sage Chakra, his reactions probably weren't the best they normally would have been (*something similar happened in the Pain arc*).



I don't recall Sage Naruto's stats ever being reduced as a result of overuse of natural energy. If you can bring up the appropriate times where that occurred in the Invasion of Pain arc, that'd be greatly appreciated.



> And its not that ridiculous. Version 1 speed is a very high level for most shinobi. Hell when he used it against fully transformed Juugo? Juugo couldn't do anything and his blasts were dodged point blank. Not to mention keeping up with not-serious but fresh KCM Naruto speed.



It's ridiculous because you're going as far as to say Sage Naruto is able to be blitzed by Ay's regular speed when he outplayed a fighter of similar velocity like a fool.



> ...since Hashirama isn't as powerful as the Juubi itself?



No, your supporting argument was that Hashirama can't logically be as powerful as the Ten-Tails because not once did Kurama look at the former and think, "_oh jeez, his power can't be comprehended, blah, blah, blah"_. This supposition rides on two assumptions:

a) That Kurama looks at every fighter and communicates to Naruto the extent of his/her strength.

Like, why is it just because Kurama didn't deliberately convey Hashirama's strength to Naruto, means Hashirama is weaker than first-form Ten-Tails? What necessitates that Kurama does that analysis for *every* fighter? And secondly, 

b) That residual power denotes strength.

This isn't Bleach. Killer Bee makes it known to us that Obito, upon becoming the Ten-Tails Jinchūriki, focuses his power. Hence why Tailed Beast Sage Mode Naruto doesn't have that same sense of overwhelming power emitting from Obito, Madara, or Kaguya. It's because they focus their tremendous quantities of strong chakra into a small singularity instead of naturally oozing it out everywhere like the Ten-Tails does.



> Wait, just to clarify dude, is Hashirama as powerful as the Ten-Tails in your opinion?



Nope. I'm saying Chōjō Kebutsu has greater feats than the Ten-Tails' laser and therefore is a stronger technique.

But first-form Ten-Tails is superior overall.



> Since you said it yourself, the rapid fire nature of that clash means the Bijudama's would be weaker. And 100% Kurama's Bijudama's would be, despite being bigger than Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode avatar, exploded with the same amount of force and power as Biju 2-7 since they weren't supercharged.



Let's get this straight.

Rapid-fire Tailed Beast Bombs << regularly-charged Tailed Beast Bombs.

Tailed Beast Mode Naruto and Gyūki launch nine of those rapid-fire bombs at the Ten-Tails, who overwhelms them with its chakra beam. Now, what the fully-formed Nine-Tails used against Hashirama was eleven of those - so not only is that power superior in just sheer quantity, but power, because fully-formed Nine-Tails is *drastically* larger than Tailed Beast Mode Naruto or Gyūki. Therefore, by extension, its bombs are larger than Naruto or Gyūki's.

And as we all know, size of the charged bomb, denotes power, hence even on an individual basis, fully-formed Kurama's rapid-fire bombs >> those of Naruto and Gyūki's.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 4, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't recall Sage Naruto's stats ever being reduced as a result of overuse of natural energy. If you can bring up the appropriate times where that occurred in the Invasion of Pain arc, that'd be greatly appreciated.


Deva Path: Looks like he lost a lot of power... that technique must have drained most of his Sage Chakra.

Naruto: Crap! I can't stay in Sage Mode much longer! I've gotta at least finish off this one!

Naruto was probably running out given his Odama Rasenshuriken he used and his limit in the War being three normal Rasenshuriken in Sage Mode. After all, he went from easily dismantling Preta and Asura to...struggling against Animal Path and its bird.


> It's ridiculous because you're going as far as to say Sage Naruto is able to be blitzed by Ay's regular speed when he outplayed a fighter of similar velocity like a fool.


And that Naruto's Sage Mode was fresh, while the one Madara blitzed used up a LOT of Sage Chakra beforehand.




> No, your supporting argument was that Hashirama can't logically be as powerful as the Ten-Tails because not once did Kurama look at the former and think, "_oh jeez, his power can't be comprehended, blah, blah, blah"_. This supposition rides on two assumptions:
> 
> a) That Kurama looks at every fighter and communicates to Naruto the extent of his/her strength.
> 
> ...


But even unfocused, the power produced by the Ten-Tails is overwhelming. Thats the point I was trying to make in comparison to Hashirama.




> Nope. I'm saying Chōjō Kebutsu has greater feats than the Ten-Tails' laser and therefore is a stronger technique.
> 
> But first-form Ten-Tails is superior overall.


Superior overall? Then why is its Ten-Tails laser weaker than Chojo Kebetsu if it wasn't impaired at all by the dual Renzoku Bijudama while Chojo Kebetsu lost its arms?




> Let's get this straight.
> 
> Rapid-fire Tailed Beast Bombs << regularly-charged Tailed Beast Bombs.
> 
> ...


Even though full Kurama is larger, weren't the rapid fired ones still weaker than a standard one? Didn't Flutter even make a blog of Kurama's firepower at the Valley of the End and got a value much lower than he thought, and much lower than what BM Naruto produces?


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

> Deva Path: Looks like he lost a lot of power... that technique must have drained most of his Sage Chakra.
> 
> Naruto: Crap! I can't stay in Sage Mode much longer! I've gotta at least finish off this one!
> 
> Naruto was probably running out given his Odama Rasenshuriken he used and his limit in the War being three normal Rasenshuriken in Sage Mode. After all, he went from easily dismantling Preta and Asura to...struggling against Animal Path and its bird.



Naruto became much more powerfull after Pain Arc. In War Arc, his SM is stronger than before. 



> And that Naruto's Sage Mode was fresh, while the one Madara blitzed used up a LOT of Sage Chakra beforehand.



Well, he didnt seem being tired a lot. And War Arc SM Naruto >>>>>> Pain Arc SM Naruto.



> But even unfocused, the power produced by the Ten-Tails is overwhelming. Thats the point I was trying to make in comparison to Hashirama.



Yeah. With this, i agree.



> Superior overall? Then why is its Ten-Tails laser weaker than Chojo Kebetsu if it wasn't impaired at all by the dual Renzoku Bijudama while Chojo Kebetsu lost its arms?



TBB's with Perfect Susanoo blades are not weak, you know. And there were lots of them.

Anyway, it has been proved by me and lots of other debaters that Hashirama and EMS Madara are the strongest shinobi in Narutoverse. Except some people which i mentioned earlier.

But BSM Naruto, BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke? EMS Madara can beat aither of them in one-on-one fight. Hashirama can beat aither of them in one-on-one fight as well.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 4, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Useless? They nearly defeated the Gokage several times over and only failed since Madara was _playing_ with them. Madara wasn't remotely serious until the end of the fight.



 No. His Mokuton got hard countered by a severely weakened Base Naruto clone and Gokage easily countered Flower World.

 The only thing that was useful was using Mokuton Susano'o clones though that quite frankly pales in comparison to EMS Madara's full power.



> Question: When was it EVER said Madara's Mokuton was inferior to Hashirama's? That was never said, shown, or claimed by ANYONE in the manga. All the Mokuton Madara used were on the same size AND scale as Hashirama's. And all evidence points to Madara not using his Rinnegan against Hashirama in the first place since he was luring him into a false sense of security AND buying time for Black Zetsu arrive so he could resurrect himself. Throughout the entire battle with Hashriama, he only used melee or his EMS abilities. That's it. He kept the fact he could use Mokuton a secret from him. He kept what his Rinnegan could do a secret from Hashirama. Anyone who thinks Madara was going all out in that fight instead of just dicking around to have fun really needs to re-exeamine his character.



 Because it's logical for Madara's Mokuton to be on par with Hashirama's despite only having a portion of Hashirama's cells? Does that sound logical to you?

 Yet even when he decided to fight Hashirama, he refused to use his Rinnegan which means it's jutsus weren't even effective against top tier opponents and since he was purely using his EMS powers, then his EMS is more suited for combat.

 Madara was only implied to be dicking around against his clones. He was more than ready to actually fight Hashirama and was actually hungry for another fight. Even one Shinobi questions whether they fought like that back then implying they were fighting like equals, like they've always been. The only time he dicked around against Hashi was when he had chakra rods stuck up his ass which is quite frankly understandable. 

 At this point in the manga, keeping his Mokuton or Rinnegan a secret would be entirely useless considering everyone had knowledge about it at this point.

 I don't see how using Mokuton is effective against a Superior Mokuton user. 

 Madara also wasn't afraid to expose Preta Path, so clearly he gave no shits about exposing his Rinnegan's abilities. 





> > Shinsusenju grabbed Kurama Mokujin applied the suppression seal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> No. His Mokuton got hard countered by a severely weakened Base Naruto clone and Gokage easily countered Flower World.
> 
> The only thing that was useful was using Mokuton Susano'o clones though that quite frankly pales in comparison to EMS Madara's full power.
> 
> ...







> Okay. Buddha could still treat Kurama like a puppy when he wanted to and Madara couldn't do absolutely anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am surprised SSM12 havent put you in his/her ignore list, to be honest. 

His/her is because i dont know if SSM12 is a man, or a girl. So dont ban me please, allmighty admins.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 5, 2015)

*...PLEASE STOP TRYING TO TROLL ME!*



Bonly said:


> Hashi made 10 gates fall from the sky to pin down all ten of the the Juubi's tails, he made another gate fall down behind the Juubi's head, and he also made one gate fall from the sky down onto Obito right before he had a shitload more fall from the sky  when each gate was bigger then the last in size. So the whole "Hashirama isn't touching him for shit" isn't true as the gates provide a way for Hashi to "touch" Onoki.


You're right... but the Juubi is nowhere as near as high in the sky as Deidara and Onoki were. I still hold the claim that Hashirama isn't touching him without plot in-based stupidity because he can fly and Hashirama cannot. Onoki was above the clouds, Hashirama isn't doing anything to Onoki up there mate.





Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama would rape Oonoki. Physically and metaphysically.
> 
> Grabs him with Mokuton before he can go anywhere. Then the rest is straight up 50 Shades of Wood.


Obviously in a real match-up where rape isn't going to happen Onoki with support could crush Hashirama's hopes of winning and pull through a victory. Dust Release is capable of doing that to anyone who hasn't got Dust Release themselves or Petra Path/Kamui.

Keijugan no Jutsu was enough to make Turtle Island feel like a small child to Onoki, therefore I can estimate he'll be able to do the same to Hashirama's golem, dragon, wood human, wooden Buddha etc.

One vs one... Onoki is at a huge disadvantage but playing to win when looking at his arsenal especially if he is joined by his Gokage brethren, like I've been saying he can pull a victory.


ARGUS said:


> the irony! when the manga has completely showed and flat out told its dumb readers that hashirama/madara are well well above the likes of gokage,
> 
> the whole fight against the gokage, emphasised on how much hashirama is ahead of them, and yes it was them as a team, not just individually,
> 
> ...


The whole fight proved how remarkable five kage level opponents did, fighting for the first time. The Kage constantly surprised Madara just as much as they disappointed him. Within the fight you can see how Madara is perfectly suited for them and if you open you're eyes you can see how Hashirama would not be. This is Naruto, don't forget your part 1 - it takes more than brute or even godly strength to win a fight. 

Naruto getting the run on Kabuto during the Sannin confrontation shows this.
Sakura smacking Kaguya into her defeat perfectly shows this.
Minato out maneuvering Obito during his Kyubi Konoha invasion clearly shows this.
Danzo would have wiped out Sasuke and Obito if it were not for Kamui, clearly shows this.

...wake up and stop being ignorant for no reason other than to hype Hashirama. He took down Madara because his arsenal allowed it. Nothing more, here Onoki's arsenal is enough to take down Hashirama providing certain circumstances are met.

You even said it... it dismantles the target, it vaporises them. It does nothing more, if it touches you, you're gone (that part of you).


StarWanderer said:


> First of all, Wood Dragon can absorb ninjutsu, which is chakra, since it could absorb chakra in the past. It could absorb Naruto's Kurama Avatar, it negated Preta Path etc.


Yes it's like the much weaker ability of Preta Path. Absorbing health from whoever it's constricting. It hasn't been shown to point blank absorb Chakra, son.



> Does that matter? Can you show me how Onoki destroys that turtle, or something comparable to Hashirama's wood constructs in durability?


Yes it does matter because' that's how it works. It doesn't matter how durable something is, it destroys the molecular regardless of their components, unless it is special - Jinton vs Jinton or the Absorption Seal. Why can't a lot you understand how Jinton works?



> Bijuu Dama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Onoki's, or Mu's Jinton, because it contains much more powerfull chakra. It doesnt matter how Jinton works - it is still weaker than Bijuu Dama and cant vaporize Hashirama's mokuton constructs, with which Hashirama could catch Bijuu Dama, withstand Bijuu Dama's explosion and catch Perfect Susanoo's blade.


Can you please leave fanfiction out of this?

Nothing in the manga has suggested this but I'm not ignorant so if I'm forgetting please provide me with some links and that'll settle it. Hashirama's durable wood is not enough to stop Jinton. I've told you all what is enough to stop it and Hashirama cannot perform either Jinton or Preta Path. It's almost like you're saying Madara's Wood Clones and their Susanoo had less Chakra then Onoki's ...I can believe it but don't. Energy out put has nothing to do with it... this is not Dragonball Z.





> Their Jinton lacks *feats*.


It doesn't need feats for you to understand how it works. It lacks feats due to plot. Just all of you read this:


			
				Databook IV said:
			
		

> Jinton
> 
> Wind, Earth, Fire, combining three natures for a moment is a "kekkai touta" ninjutsu. With both hands a large amount of chakra is charged and it's form is changed into a cube, cone, cylinder, various three dimensional objects (so it can be more than the ones we saw), and than it's released. Onoki, Mu's disciple, inherited Jinton. If it touches the target they are disintegrated at the molecular-level, defense with any ninja implement or ninjutsu is impossible. A certain death hit.
> 
> ...


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

wait what the fuck 
did someone just say the gokage could beat hashirama

they saw PS and shat themselves 

what do u think happens when they see budda which is several times larger. you think onoki jinton has the AoE to do any significant damage to it?

if so why didnt he just jinton PS. why be afraid of PS. something which is much weaker than budda


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

> Yes it's like the much weaker ability of Preta Path. Absorbing health from whoever it's constricting. It hasn't been shown to point blank absorb Chakra, son.



Shinobi's health depends on chakra. Both Preta Path and Wood Dragon has shown the ability to absorb chakra. If they can absorb chakra, then they can absorb ninjutsu, since ninjutsu = chakra. 

And i advice you to learn how to debate before calling me a son. 



> Yes it does matter because' that's how it works. It doesn't matter how durable something is, it destroys the molecular regardless of their components, unless it is special - Jinton vs Jinton or the Absorption Seal. Why can't a lot you understand how Jinton works?



The Jinton's power depends on user's chakra, because it is a ninjutsu. Its a combination of 3 Releases. Both Onoki and Mu dont have chakra powerfull enough to produce a Jinton which will be capable of demolishing Hashirama's mokuton constructs. And they have *no feats* with it.

The fact that Jinton is a demolition on molecular level doesnt prove it can demolish anything in Narutoverse. You made a statement that it can dismantle Hashirama's mokuton constructs. So i'll wait for you to prove that by canon statements and feats.



> Can you please leave fanfiction out of this?
> 
> Nothing in the manga has suggested this but I'm not ignorant so if I'm forgetting please provide me with some links and that'll settle it. Hashirama's durable wood is not enough to stop Jinton. I've told you all what is enough to stop it and Hashirama cannot perform either Jinton or Preta Path. It's almost like you're saying Madara's Wood Clones and their Susanoo had less Chakra then Onoki's ...I can believe it but don't. Energy out put has nothing to do with it... this is not Dragonball Z.



Can you please leave *your* fanfiction out of this?

Its up to you to prove that Onoki's Jinton can vaporize anything, inclusing Hashirama's mokuton constructs. Unless you can bring some proofs, it'll be obvious Onoki's Jinton wont work on Hashirama's most powerfull mokuton constructs.

I wont care about your opinion, unless you can back it up with logic, manga facts and canon statements. 

Onoki could destroy Madara's clones Susanoos with Tsunade's help. And Hashirama's most powerfull mokuton constructs are far more durable than Madara's clone's imperfect Susanoo. 

So i'll wait for you to give me some proofs.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

> It doesn't need feats for you to understand how it works. It lacks feats due to plot. Just all of you read this:
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Databook IV
> Jinton
> ...



Yeah, there is also a statement in Databook that Nagato's Preta Path could absorb any ninjutsu, yet it couldnt absorb Hashirama's Wood Dragon. 

So can we trust those statements to such a degree?

By the way, Hashirama can absorb his Jinton with Wood Dragon. And why Onoki was so afraid of Madara's Perfect Susanoo? Why couldnt he just Jinton him?

And by the way, dont you think Hashirama is too fast for Onoki, or Mu? 

Oh, and Preta Path is a ninjutsu. The statement is wrong, lol.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 5, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Shinobi's health depends on chakra. Both Preta Path and Wood Dragon has shown the ability to absorb chakra. If they can absorb chakra, then they can absorb ninjutsu, since ninjutsu = chakra.
> 
> And i advice you to learn how to debate before calling me a son.
> 
> ...


Here, son (it's the databook):

Jinton

Wind, Earth, Fire, combining three natures for a moment is a "kekkai touta" ninjutsu. With both hands a large amount of chakra is charged and it's form is changed into a cube, cone, cylinder, various three dimensional objects (so it can be more than the ones we saw), and than it's released. Onoki, Mu's disciple, inherited Jinton. If it touches the target they are disintegrated at the molecular-level, defense with any ninja implement or ninjutsu is impossible. A certain death hit.

Enemy or ally, a touch results in disintegration, and so on, rest seems like the same

I see you ignored this entirely, so I'll post it again. The databook is supported by everything it was shown, like blasting away the part of Susanoo and body Madara shown. Like I said forget the fanfiction cause' I'm presenting you with only things the manga has said. Now you show me, how Mokuton is enough to body the force of Jinton, pretty please!?


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Here, son (it's the databook):
> 
> Jinton
> 
> ...



Preta Path is a ninjutsu, yet Onoki's Jinton wasnt a "death hit". 

There is also a statement that Nagato's Preta Path could absorb any ninjutsu, yet it couldnt absorb Wood Dragon.

Here you go, son.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 5, 2015)

Even if jinton could erase anything he just doesn't have the scale/AoE to seriously threaten top tier megazords. The size of onoki's biggest jinton barley reach up to madara's PS knees and the buddha is far, far, far bigger than that thing. Onoki would be lucky to destroy a arm before he gets pummeled to death. Onoki's jinton's aren't even bigger than wood human.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Even if jinton could erase anything the size of onoki's biggest jinton barley reach up to madara's PS knees and the buddha is far, far, far bigger than that thing. Onoki would be lucky to destroy a arm before he gets pummeled to death. Onoki's jinton's aren't even bigger than wood human.



And he made such a big Jinton thanks to Tsunade.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 5, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yeah, there is also a statement in Databook that Nagato's Preta Path could absorb any ninjutsu, yet it couldnt absorb Hashirama's Wood Dragon.
> 
> So can we trust those statements to such a degree?
> 
> ...


So you finally saw my proof, now look at any time Jinton was used in the manga please. I gave you reason for why that happened... I'll find the post because I'm not writing it out again.

Onoki was afraid of Perfect Susanoo because the dude inside it can cancel out and absorb Jinton... are you that dense that you cannot understand that? Onoki did Jinton Madara and like my post says son, Madara has the perfect arsenal for going up against the Gokage. It's that simple.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> So you finally saw my proof, now look at any time Jinton was used in the manga please. I gave you reason for why that happened... I'll find the post because I'm not writing it out again.
> 
> Onoki was afraid of Perfect Susanoo because the dude inside it can cancel out and absorb Jinton... are you that dense that you cannot understand that?



Even if Onoki's Jinton can erase Hashirama's mokuton, Hashirama:

1. Is too fast for him. Hashirama can speedblitz Onoki.
2. Has various jutsu's that can give Onoki lots of trouble, such as Great Gates, Flower Tree World, mokuton clones and so on.

And not always can we trust the statements from Databooks. 

Also, i advice you to stop being that harsh. There are the admins, which can ban people.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

Burning vegeta
The dude Inside the susanoo can't absorb Jinton while using susanoo any idiot would know that 

So no onoki was afraid of PS because he can't do anytbinf against it 

Fact

Read the DB on Budda 
Kishi says its so large it makes hashirama impossible to reach 

Also wood dragon absorbs chakra . It will absorb Jinton


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Burning vegeta
> The dude Inside the susanoo can't absorb Jinton while using susanoo any idiot would know that
> 
> So no onoki was afraid of PS because he can't do anytbinf against it
> ...


...you do realise just before Perfect Susanoo came out, that was their last shot. They bet everything on those series of moves. That's ultimately why Onoki didn't do a damn thing. I have no idea why you guys are asking me shit like this, it's like you haven't read the manga.

Dude, don't be like that... Onoki can fly above the clouds. Hashirama would have trouble reaching him. He's not doing much as Onoki rains Jinton down on him. C'mon man...


StarWanderer said:


> Even if Onoki's Jinton can erase Hashirama's mokuton, Hashirama:
> 
> 1. Is too fast for him. Hashirama can speedblitz Onoki.
> 2. Has various jutsu's that can give Onoki lots of trouble, such as Great Gates, Flower Tree World, mokuton clones and so on.
> ...


I never said Onoki was alone, never have. Never. 


blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Even if jinton could erase anything he just doesn't have the scale/AoE to seriously threaten top tier megazords. The size of onoki's biggest jinton barley reach up to madara's PS knees and the buddha is far, far, far bigger than that thing. Onoki would be lucky to destroy a arm before he gets pummeled to death. Onoki's jinton's aren't even bigger than wood human.


Dude what are you talking about!? I can see that you're not really ready - keep calm and the Gokage vs Madara fight. Re-read it and once you've familiarized yourself with it, answer me this. 

If you're with the notion Jinton erases anything it touches, embrace it. If you're not give reason for it. Thus you said "if" it could makes me think you don't actually know or you're unsure. I mean you cannot be on the fence on this. It is the very essence of the technique.

Sigh, why would Onoki fire a Jinton at the knees of Hashirama's Shin Susenju or that of Madara's Perfect Susanoo?

The Jinton we've seen are not bigger than Perfect Susanoo or the Wood Human, the one Onoki fired just before Madara activated his final version of Susanoo is half it's size.


StarWanderer said:


> And he made such a big Jinton thanks to Tsunade.


You need to add a little context to this post.

He needed Tsunade because he was running out of Chakra.
It was no more powerful than it was without Tsunade giving him Chakra.
Onoki performed bigger when wiping out the Mokuton forest.



StarWanderer said:


> Preta Path is a ninjutsu, yet Onoki's Jinton wasnt a "death hit".
> 
> There is also a statement that Nagato's Preta Path could absorb any ninjutsu, yet it couldnt absorb Wood Dragon.
> 
> Here you go, son.


So I assume you're going - full ignore important stuff mode - with that statement, why? Once more there is no evidence to suggest it couldn't sap the Chakra from it's body. Like I've said a couple times, Preta Path does not absorb physical things that have came into being.

I've heard it all now, like Onoki's Jinton is too small to do anything to the True Several Thousand Hands, or that a Jinton would just hit the bottom of the Buddha’s feet? Are you listening to yourselves? For Onoki there is no area of the battlefield that escapes him! He can fly, tremendously well too. Yes, don't remind me... Onoki and the rest of his Gokage counterparts failed to take down a jovial Madara. Yet we still have to take note of all the plot-based stupidity present on both their parts. Thus removing this attribute of the battle and the opponent to Hashirama, they can definitely win - it's possible. Onoki can hover kilometres above the battlefield and can make 3+ Rock Clones who also fly. Nobody of Hashirama's skillset is getting near him before being atomized by Jinton or being tagged by weight inflation/rock fist in the process, it would be suicide to leap off of the ground and disallow further trajectory change considering  old Onoki managed to erase an entire forest of Mokuton in an instant with Jinton, whilst being extremely fucked mentally up and extremely tired. 

Why are some of you forgetting what happened in the Gokage Vs Madara fight? Why are you asking me why Onoki didn't fire another round of Jinton at Madara? Are you getting delusional; Onoki managed to remember this time around that Madara has Preta Path and thus the ability to Blocking Technique Absorption Seal. That's why that didn't happen. Although I imagine the battle being different with them being blood-lusted and if they had ignored the taunts and words of Madara, as I have said 1000 times Madara being able to absorb ninjutsu ultimately crippled them.

There is no evidence in all of the Naruto series that you can show me that will prove Mokuton is too durable for Jinton to vaporise it. None. So please, let's stop saying Mokuton is too durable for Jinton. Jinton is an omnipotent force in terms of power. It can be stopped by Kamui as shown HERE and by absorbing it as shown HERE. Nothing more! Since Hashirama doesn't have Kamui or Preta Path he cannot afford to take a hit from Jinton.

Hashirama has not be shown to absorb offensive chakra - for example chakra that has been turned into ninjutsu like substances a bijuudama. Show it would be unfair to suggest like Preta Path it has the ability to start absorbing a Rasengan or Jinton without sustaining damage. Just like how Preta Path cannot absorb things which clearly has chakra in like Gaara's sand. It would be sensible to think the Wood Dragon and other Mokuton structures can only absorb free flowing chakra effectively, like that of Yoroi Akado's absorbing technique. There's no reason to suggest it could absorb something like Jinton without getting vaporised partly. I mean it isn't like Preta Path that negates the jutsu whilst absorbing it. There must be a reason Hashirama decided to run and not summon another Wood Human HERE.

 ...thanks for the advice son, let's concentrate shall we.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 5, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> You're right... but the Juubi is nowhere as near as high in the sky as Deidara and Onoki were.
> 
> Onoki was above the clouds, Hashirama isn't doing anything to Onoki up there mate.



Onoki doesn't magically start the match up so high that he's above the clouds in most fights while his enemy is on the ground. Onoki has to actually fly up to said height from ground level if not close to it and as we know height wise the Juubi is wayyyyyy taller then Onoki. That means at the start of a fight Onoki will be within gate dropping which means there's a chance Onoki doesn't get that high up in the first place.



> I still hold the claim that Hashirama isn't touching him without plot in-based stupidity because he can fly and Hashirama cannot.



I still hold claim that your claim is wrong as Hashi still has a ways to hit Onoki even if he can fly. Flying isn't an auto win button sadly


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Onoki doesn't magically start the match up so high that he's above the clouds in most fights while his enemy is on the ground. Onoki has to actually fly up to said height from ground level if not close to it and as we know height wise the Juubi is wayyyyyy taller then Onoki. That means at the start of a fight Onoki will be within gate dropping which means there's a chance Onoki doesn't get that high up in the first place.





Onoki uses Doton: Keijugan no Jutsu ...and says come at me Hashirama!

Some heavy-fat-ass gates aren't going to do anything to a dude that can avoid them with flight, has the support of the remaining Gokage and is able to turn those very gate pillars into nothing. You do recall this is the Saidaime  Tsuchikage, the dude who stopped two celestial bodies being brought in from space. Can you even begin to imagine the speed and weight of those things? Let us not forget Gaara helped him but still, fuck me... some Gracious Deity Gates of any level isn't going to apprehend this old man.

Now, since Onoki avoids this he flies into the sky and plummets Hashirama's location with Jinton - taking out the Gokage if he needs to, or he could just take them with him (very unlikely - they'll probably be used to distract Hashirama).


> I still hold claim that your claim is wrong as Hashi still has a ways to hit Onoki even if he can fly. Flying isn't an auto win button sadly




...flying is an auto win because once Onoki is up here:

*Spoiler*: __ 





*Spoiler*: __ 



Hashirama isn't doing shit.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 5, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Onoki uses Doton: Keijugan no Jutsu ...and says come at me Hashirama!





Hashi uses Kokuangyo no Jutsu ...and says I'm coming Onoki!



> Some heavy-fat-ass gates aren't going to do anything to a dude that can avoid them with flight,
> 
> Now, since Onoki avoids this he flies into the sky and plummets Hashirama's location with Jinton



Prove it.



> has the support of the remaining Gokage



Madara using one of Hashi's jutsu forced the Gokage to take flight and be distracted at the sheer scale of the jutsu along with it's flowers which allowed Madara to sneak up on them. With Hashi having the same jutsu, wood clones, and other large scaled Mokuton to cause distractions as well as the gates, the support of the Gokage members might not be that much.



> and is able to turn those very gate pillars into nothing.



If Onoki is hit then he's not going to keep flying up as if nothing happened, he'll slow down and be dragged to the ground which is well within Mokuton range.



> You do recall this is the Saidaime  Tsuchikage, the dude who stopped two celestial bodies being brought in from space. Can you even begin to imagine the speed and weight of those things? Let us not forget Gaara helped him but still, fuck me...



You do recall this is the Shodai Hokage, the dude who well assuming you read the manga you'll know of his feats and portrayal which shits on Onoki so no need in me mocking you like before.  



> taking out the Gokage if he needs to, or he could just take them with him (very unlikely - they'll probably be used to distract Hashirama).



Chances that Onoki would actually risk killing the Gokage members or have enough time wait for all of them to be outside the AoE of his Jinton before Hashi attacks and stop him isn't high.



> ...flying is an auto win because once Onoki is up here:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Then Prove Onoki flies up that high without being hit and kept down.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 5, 2015)

SM Hashirama would simply drop these on him, Burning Vegeta.

There's also no way he'd outrun his base Mokuton variants such as his Mokuton Hands and Wood Dragon, which captured Edo Madara and dominated BM Naruto (in a weaker form- Edo Madara's Mokuton). The hands would literally explode up from underneath him and close, crushing him before he even took flight, it's a 1 seal Ninjutsu.


----------



## ShadoLord (Mar 5, 2015)

Can Onoki even deal any significant damage to Hashirama? His healing ability is quite overpowered...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 5, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Here, son (it's the databook):
> 
> Jinton
> 
> Wind, Earth, Fire, combining three natures for a moment is a "kekkai touta" ninjutsu. With both hands a large amount of chakra is charged and it's form is changed into a cube, cone, cylinder, various three dimensional objects (so it can be more than the ones we saw), and than it's released. Onoki, Mu's disciple, inherited Jinton. * If it touches the target they are disintegrated at the molecular-level, defense with any ninja implement or ninjutsu is impossible. * A certain death hit.




 This is contradicted because Madara's UnStabilized PS busted through Onoki's Jinton that was powered up by Tsunade.

 So no, Onoki's Jinton doesn't annihilate anything. It's ridiculous to think that at this point of the manga that there is one jutsu that doesn't have a weakness because that's fuckin contradicted every time.

 Obito's Kamui, Amaterasu, Shinra Tensei, Izanagi, Rinnegan vision etc.

 Seriously, every jutsu that's portrayed as invincible eventually gets hard-countered.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2015)

> defense with any ninja implement or ninjutsu is impossible.



Preta's ninjutsu says hi.



> Onoki was afraid of Perfect Susanoo because the dude inside it can cancel out and absorb Jinton...



Madara can't use Preta Path and Susano at the same time.  It's a plot point.  If they could force Madara to cancel out PS by shooting a little Jinton beam at him and making him switch it off, then they wouldn't have been scared and said there's nothing they could do against it.

------------------------------------

If Hashi's mokuton can keep up with preta's absorption, and preta can absorb jinton, then Hashi's mecha are jinton proof anyway.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

i cant believe someone is hyping onoki against hashirama
SM is already a counter to SoP 4 elemental release. 
jinton is like the baby version of that
Sm wood constructs would not be affected by jinton 



hiruzen described omyoton as an advanced version of jinton. we saw the black stuff can even negate ET. now if the black stuff cant negate Sm jutsu why on earth would jinton be able to?

or at worst wood dragon all day. would absorb jinton. it afterall absorbed preta path, a barrier which nullifies jutsu which also happens to troll jinton. 

no reason wood dragon should be any different. jinton<<<<<<<<BD in power


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

Wow... you've all gone crazy trying to understand how powerful Hashirama is. I honestly cannot believe, I'm actually proving stuff and then you're not happy with it so you're asking me to prove more stuff. I've proved Onoki can and could fly up above the battlefield, now I have to prove he'll not get knocked down? You prove Hashirama can reach him at cloud level. It's ridiculous. Hashirama is not invincible.

Jinton has never shown to not being able to penetrate anything; minus Preta Path and that of Kamui. The databook still stands...

If you believe that Mokuton is able to stand up against Jinton then okay, have it your way but that is not even funny in how wrong that is.

Now we've got people saying Onoki wouldn't be able to react to Hashirama? No, Hashirama is not shown to be that fast - especially how Onoki can enhance his speed to that of which surprised Madara. He even has Raikage A for extra speed, Hashirama isn't clocking them with his speed and like I said anything Hashirama throws at Onoki will have it's forced reduced. Hashirama is not as strong as two meteors clambering ontop of Onoki's head.

Wood Dragon does not absorb Ninjutsu. It absorbs unformed Chakra. Look at Yamato's jutsu, look at Madara's Wood Dragon, none of them absorbed attacks. So please, oh please stop telling me it can. Don't be a troll. Don't be a fanboy. Just tell the truth.

The databook said implement or ninjutsu - obviously it's talking about defensive measures. Like a Rashomon gate or several. If Onoki can smoke Susanoo it must have smoked the unformed Perfect Susanoo's legs too.

...yet like I've said the Gokage were counting on that plan to work and it didn't they knew they were fucked, that's why they didn't do shit plus Onoki was out of Chakra - which is why he didn't do anything like create another Jinton.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Wow... you've all gone crazy trying to understand how powerful Hashirama is. I honestly cannot believe, I'm actually proving stuff and then you're not happy with it so you're asking me to prove more stuff. I've proved Onoki can and could fly up above the battlefield, now I have to prove he'll not get knocked down? You prove Hashirama can reach him at cloud level. It's ridiculous. Hashirama is not invincible.
> 
> Jinton has never shown to not being able to penetrate anything; minus Preta Path and that of Kamui. The databook still stands...
> 
> ...




preta path is ninjutusu. wood dragon absorbed it. its not untransformed chakra or whatever fictional term u want to make up. its a chakra barrier which is ninjutsu. wood dragon trolled it. naruto kyuubi avatar is ninjutsu. wood dragon absorbed it.. 

says u. 99.9999% of the forum are telling u hashirama stomps the gokage but u somehow are trying to make it sound like onoki can stand on its own. its hilarious. 

you are the crazy man calling other people crazy 

so you are saying a fresh onoki can defeat madara PS then?? please go ahead and make that thread. i feel u need to be laughed at to see how wrong u are. 


onoki can fly up sky high all he wants. all that would help him do is survive. 

he can shoot as many jinton as he wants the scale of his attack is insignificant comapred to budda. 

i doubt onoki can use jinton 10 times. his largest powered up by tsunade jinton was still only about a 1/3 the size of PS which is about 4-5 times smaller than budda. 

you are an actual joke.

btw if we going to go with DB. DB describes budda as a technique making it impossible to reach hashirama. hashirama can stand right behind it and onoki would never get to hashirama. 

it doesnt matter the quality of the technique it can be overwhelmed by the scale of a less quality jutsu simply put.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> If you believe that Mokuton is able to stand up against Jinton then okay, have it your way but that is not even funny in how wrong that is.



 Shows maturity on your part because you haven't bothered refuting our points and are just making baseless claims at this point.

 ^ @IceGaze

 Buddha is way more than 4-5x larger than Perfect Susanoo.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Shows maturity on your part because you haven't bothered refuting our points and are just making baseless claims at this point.
> 
> ^ @IceGaze
> 
> Buddha is way more than 4-5x larger than Perfect Susanoo.


I'm repeating myself son, you're part of the team of members here not listening and asking me to prove things that blatantly happened in the manga.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

@narutoX28 sorry my bad. my point was budda is far too large regardless of how many jiinton onoki can shoot out with his shit chakra levels. now if onoki had kyuubi chakra boost then yh he stands a chance. 

@burning vegeta you are wrong. how many people need to tell u this. find one person in 9 pages that agrees with what u are saying

werent the gokage loosing to a baby budda from yamato+guru guy or whatever its name is ?? seriously kishi already provided evidence they cant do shit to it. 

before u attempt to say yamato was using some unknown technique please note the only mokuton technique which absorbs ninjutsu is wood dragon. 

*baby budda on panel effectively trolled the gokage* adult budda attacks once and they all die


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

You're a fucking turnip if you think people need to agree with me to make me right. People are struggling for these three very reasons...

-Jinton vaporizes everything minus Preta Path, Kamui and of course another Jinton it touches.  
-Hashirama's Mokuton being durable enough to not be hurt by Jinton.
-Hashirama kills Onoki and the Gokage before they can move.

It's like none of you understand the correctness of the three statements the above.

...if you're telling me Karin >> Gokage


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> You're a fucking turnip if you think people need to agree with me to make me right. People are struggling for these three very reasons...
> 
> -Jinton vaporizes everything minus Preta Path, Kamui and of course another Jinton it touches.
> -Hashirama's Mokuton being durable enough to not be hurt by Jinton.
> ...



omyoton a superior jinton could not negate a sage mode water jutsu. why would jinton vaporise a sage mode wood jutsu

wood dragon again very slowly absorbs ninjutsu. read the DB. jinton is a ninjutsu. why would jinton a ninjutus not be absorbed by something which specificially absorbs ninjutsu. why could preta absorb it? why didnt it just destroy the chakra barrier of preta path??? when u can answer those questions let me know 

the gokage are free to move and do what they want. i dont see nor does anyone see how that helps them. budda comes out 4/5 kage cant do anything but die. the 5th one onoki dies shortly after 

i am not tellign u that. however the baby budda did troll the 5 kage. 

that doesnt mean karin>>>>>>gokage. karin had a jutsu suited to beat it. use that little brain of urs


----------



## Bonly (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Wow... you've all gone crazy trying to understand how powerful Hashirama is. I honestly cannot believe, I'm actually proving stuff and then you're not happy with it so you're asking me to prove more stuff.



Then get used to it. If I prove that Hashi has a way to hit Onoki while in the air and all you say is Onoki can dodge them without providing evidence that he can do such then yes your gonna be asked to prove he can do such otherwise I might as well just say Hashi can dodge all Jinton attacks Onoki throws at him while he's up in the skies as if it was nothing. Would you be fine with that or would you ask me to provide some evidence that would suggest Hashi can dodge the AoE of Jinton?



> I've proved Onoki can and could fly up above the battlefield, now I have to prove he'll not get knocked down?



Yes you do. I Proved Onoki doesn't magically start that high in the air. I Proved that Hashi has a way to hit Onoki and bring him back down. And all you reply is saying Onoki just dodges them or the gates do nothing? Now let me sit here and say Hashi dodges all Jinton and I bet you'd be singing a different tune.



> You prove Hashirama can reach him at cloud level. It's ridiculous. Hashirama is not invincible.



Sorry but burden of proof falls on you. *You* still claimed Onoki gets that high up *first* despite being shown how he can be kept down and not reach that high so prove Onoki can or shut up with all the complaining.


----------



## richard lewis (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> You're a fucking turnip if you think people need to agree with me to make me right. People are struggling for these three very reasons...
> 
> -Jinton vaporizes everything minus Preta Path, Kamui and of course another Jinton it touches.
> -Hashirama's Mokuton being durable enough to not be hurt by Jinton.
> ...



What you seem to be forgetting here is that the gokage couldn't do jack shit against madara's PS and hashirama's buddha is at least 3-4 times larger and more powerful. They get nuked of the face of the earth along with anyone else in a 1 mile radius.

Hashirama in SM is honestly overkill, he would have a decent shot a soloing the gokage in base. None of them have an answer to bringer of darkness, hashirama's heavenly gates that he used to pin down the juubi could easily pin down most of the gokage making them easy to kill and the other would be left blind by his genjutsu. His makuton is just too large in scale for them to compete with, his wood dragon would absorb all of their chakra his would golem was powerful enough to trade blows with the 9 tails. He's pretty much got them beat all around.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> You're a fucking turnip if you think people need to agree with me to make me right.



Actually, you are wrong, and the fact that everyone has tried to tell you so should be a indication of this.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

Thank you rocky it doesn't undersfand


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

Oh by the way, admins, he was the first one to call me a "son". I just dont want to ignore that.


----------



## Hachibi (Mar 6, 2015)

This thread has gone off-topic and I don't know why AS doesn't just lock it (if he could leave his bed, that is).


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> This thread has gone off-topic and I don't know why AS doesn't just lock it (if he could leave his bed, that is).



Its not completely off-topic.


----------



## Hachibi (Mar 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Its not completely off-topic.



Technically it is, or the true topic was about Jinton and no one bothered to tell me


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

Hey Star Lord, I'm coming for you, son. Why are you getting offended cause' I'm calling you son... I'm like 50 years old dude.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Preta Path was said to absorb any ninjutsu in the Databook. Wood Dragon is a ninjutsu. But Madara's Preta Path couldnt absorb it. The statement was wrong. That sand could be a simple sand without chakra in it, with just explosive tags there.





> That sand could be a simple sand without chakra in it, with just explosive tags there.





> That sand could be a simple sand without chakra in it




IT COULD HAVE BEEN NORMAL SAND?

Gaara cannot move sand if it doesn't have Chakra in! If you cannot understand basic part 1 shit, how can you understand anything!? I'm fucking done with you bro... that really got me. Normal sand? Oh my gosh... I didn't think you was playing games but it's just that you don't understand some of the stuff in this manga. Get back to me when you've re-read all 700 chapters carefully.

I'm assuming you're not a troll and you just missed the part where Gaara needs Chakra to actively move his sand. I mean if you was a troll, I wouldn't be advising you to re-read all the manga StarWanderer, shit me son, I honestly thought you're name was Star Lord


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

Yeah, yeah check your VMs. Please explain to us all how Gaara controls sand without chakra? Please.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

> IT COULD HAVE BEEN NORMAL SAND?
> 
> Gaara cannot move sand if it doesn't have Chakra in! If you cannot understand basic part 1 shit, how can you understand anything!? I'm fucking done with you bro... that really got me. Normal sand? Oh my gosh... I didn't think you was playing games but it's just that you don't understand some of the stuff in this manga. Get back to me when you've re-read all 700 chapters carefully.



There are lots of different ways to move sand, you know. 

Or, Madara's Preta Path could absorb only 1 attack at a time.

Or he just manipulates the simple, not chakra-made sand with his chakra, similarly to Magnet Release. Preta Path can absorb the chakra, but not the sand itself. Can you show me Gaara creating sand from his hands, for example?


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Yeah, yeah check your VMs. Please explain to us all how Gaara controls sand without chakra? Please.



I already answered to that.

And i am waiting for your reply to my post...


----------



## Hachibi (Mar 6, 2015)

Okay, this thread definitely has gone off-topic.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Okay, this thread definitely has gone off-topic.



No. This thread is about Hashirama's and Madara's level. Are they deserving to be on a pedestal of the most powerfull shinobi duo in history, or there are some shinobi who can beat them? Vegeta is trying to prove Onoki can beat Hashirama. 

Read the OP.


----------



## Hachibi (Mar 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No. This thread is about Hashirama's and Madara's level. Are they deserving to be on a pedestal of the most powerfull shinobi duo in history, or there are some shinobi who can beat them? Vegeta is trying to prove Onoki can beat Hashirama.
> 
> Read the OP.



Must be why you're arguing about Gaara's sand


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Must be why you're arguing about Gaara's sand



Its a long story to explain why, bro.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

See guys... just read the last posts about Star Lord talking about Gaara's sand. I'm out... can't deal with this guy.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> See guys... just read the last posts about Star Lord talking about Gaara's sand. I'm out... can't deal with this guy.



Yeah, i am hard to deal with. For you, at least.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yeah, i am hard to deal with. For you, at least.


Dude you don't know Gaara controls his sand, that's like me arguing what 24578 x 400 is when you don't even know what 2 x 4 is. So yes it is quite hard as I came into this debate confident you new the basics of Naruto and it's clear you do not.


----------



## richard lewis (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I'm totally not interested in your fan-fiction. I've already answered everything you've said previously. You'll find it didn't stop Hiruzen, no reason to suggest why it would stop the Kage leaders of their respective villages.



So you basically just dodge my question, how do the gokage avoid bringer of darkness? The gokage are not hiruzen lol you can't just grant them feats from hiruzen without any proof to back it up. Show my scans of a gokage member showcasing hiruzen lvl tracking abilities or shut up. Gaara is the only one who could track hashirama with sensor sand, the others will be pretty much helpless. Again they have no answer to heavenly gates, no answer to hashirama's Kurama sized golem and certainly no answer to hashirama's buddha. Your the one making up fan fiction by saying the gokage can counter bringer of darkness with no feats to support it.


----------



## Empathy (Mar 6, 2015)

Preta can absorb the chakra from the sand and render it normal, motionless sand, but he can't absorb the sand itself.

[_Link_]


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

Omg burning vegeta you have just transcended to stupid level 
OMyoton is superior to Jinton if it cannot by Pass sags mods techs 
Jinton can't either the fucking end 

Hashirama stops while sleeping


----------



## richard lewis (Mar 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Omg burning vegeta you have just transcended to stupid level
> OMyoton is superior to Jinton if it cannot by Pass sags mods techs
> Jinton can't either the fucking end
> 
> Hashirama stops while sleeping



To be fare I think the whole SM weakness thing is unique to the 10 tails since it uses natural energy, I guess natural chakra counters natural chakra. Jinton shouldn't suffer from the same weakness, although onoki can't produce a jinton big enough to counter hashirama's makuton so it's not like it makes much of a difference.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

richard lewis said:


> So you basically just dodge my question, how do the gokage avoid bringer of darkness? The gokage are not hiruzen lol you can't just grant them feats from hiruzen without any proof to back it up. Show my scans of a gokage member showcasing hiruzen lvl tracking abilities or shut up. Gaara is the only one who could track hashirama with sensor sand, the others will be pretty much helpless. Again they have no answer to heavenly gates, no answer to hashirama's Kurama sized golem and certainly no answer to hashirama's buddha. Your the one making up fan fiction by saying the gokage can counter bringer of darkness with no feats to support it.


Are you unable to comprehend my words? You cannot just jump into a debate and not read previous comments, it stops things like this from happening. I've already said how Onoki would get past the Gracious Celestial Gates! I've already said how Onoki could deal with all of Hashirama's Mokuton beings (with the support of his fellow Gokage).

*Spoiler*: __ 




Chapter 548, page 18


Onoki... can provide as shown here 5 clones, one for each Kage.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Chapter 556, page 4


Here shows how Gaara's eye was not affected by Genjutsu and we can assume the Bringer of Darkness works the same. This combination of Gaara and Onoki will likely bring the Genjutsu to an end. I can come up with all kinds of situations where the Genjutsu could end but it's a little absurd. Although it totally depends on how Hashirama acts in this moment, all we've seen him do when using such a move was attack with Taijutsu which isn't going to do much to his opponents.


> To be fare I think the whole SM weakness thing is unique to the 10 tails since it uses natural energy, I guess natural chakra counters natural chakra. Jinton shouldn't suffer from the same weakness, although onoki can't produce a jinton big enough to counter hashirama's makuton so it's not like it makes much of a difference.


Kurama blasted through it with it's normal bijuu Chakra. As has Madara slashed through it; showing Mokuton does not have those attributes. Although you've acknowledged this sir or madam, Onoki has more than one way to deal with even the biggest of Hashirama's biggest Mokuton:

Dust Release directly to Hashirama, ignoring the rest of the Mokuton construct. Yet you know I was going to say that didn't you?
Earth Release: Added-Weight Rock Technique, slowing that friend down.
Chokeijugan, turning Hashirama's Buddah into a wooden toy. Onoki did this to two meteorites. Hashirama's Buddah isn't as powerful as a meteorite from Space.
The Moving Earth Core Earth Release... sinking Hashirama into the ground!
 outta' - outta' ​


Icegaze said:


> Omg burning vegeta you have just transcended to stupid level
> OMyoton is superior to Jinton if it cannot by Pass sags mods techs
> Jinton can't either the fucking end
> 
> Hashirama stops while sleeping


Don't oh my god me, Izegaze. I noticed when I walked in here you couldn't back up your words with any level of evidence. Come on dude, I've backed up my claims with evidence, facts and scans. I've ripped your words to streads. Well, well, well - looks like I'm doing it again! Hiruzen said what he said and you're trying to make me forget that, well, no I'm not. You're not even arguing it... dude. Put the squares of logic carefully into their right place - like a rubix cube ...and I advise everyone to do the same!

Please provide proof, PLEASE! I've told you how they are different and how they are similar. If this was the case - anytime Madara used the Kyubi against Sage Mode Hashirama it would have been a slaughter not a huge battle like we've seen. I'm repeating myself because this material is far to true to throw away.


Empathy said:


> Preta can absorb the chakra from the sand and render it normal, motionless sand, but he can't absorb the sand itself.
> 
> [_Link_]


This is a nice scan Empathy, congrats to you. However I can claim Gaara stopped controlling that sand as soon as he saw Madara take the impact of that Rasengan, couldn't he?

...either way it's clear Madara wasn't absorbing much Chakra if any at all, once that was happening. As you can see it - moving - whilst Madara is absorbing the Suiton, Raiton and Jinton. So I initially wanted _*StarWanderer *_to answer me how Gaara was doing that without any Chakra. It's almost like Madara couldn't absorb something made purely from Chakra (Suiton, Raiton and Jinton) and something not made entirely of Chakra (Gaara's Sand) at the same time.

 ...I've touched on this in previous posts.

It is possible that Preta Path and the stuff it absorbs requires different methods the barrier and on touch. Lots of points point to this but that isn't the point.

...this thread


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 6, 2015)

Preta is not absorbing sand 

Gaara may use chakra to *control * his sand, but the sand itself is not chakra 
It's a natural thing and absorbing sand would be like saying that it can absor the ground which is nothing but fanfic 

Madaras preta path was mainly countered by the gokage due to attacking him with sand 
The suiton was there to restrain him. But since there was sand, he was unable to absorb it
So claiming that preta could absorb sand is just denying the manga


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 6, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Preta is not absorbing sand
> 
> Gaara may use chakra to *control * his sand, but the sand itself is not chakra
> It's a natural thing and absorbing sand would be like saying that it can absor the ground which is nothing but fanfic
> ...


I've tried to ease such a thing into my standpoint. Like this is the reason Hashirama cannot absorb the Wood Dragon (it is from the earth - Doton)!? ...still dude. You have to be clear as Madara was absorbing Raiton and Suiton which basically was unnatural as it was coming straight from the respective Kage's bodies. 

I believe we are saying Madara cannot absorb the sand because it is just broken up earth infused with Chakra, literally from the earth.

Groundbreaking stuff Argus.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 6, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I've tried to ease such a thing into my standpoint. Like this is the reason Hashirama cannot absorb the Wood Dragon (it is from the earth - Doton)!? ...still dude. You have to be clear as Madara was absorbing Raiton and Suiton which basically was unnatural as it was coming straight from the respective Kage's bodies.
> 
> I believe we are saying Madara cannot absorb the sand because it is just broken up earth infused with Chakra, literally from the earth.



Yeah, preta cannot absorb chakra,, 
sand itself is not chakra, because it iis literally from the earth, 
controlling sand from chakra is different from the sand itself having chakra, 
no chakra on sand = no absorption 

as for raiton or suiton, no reason to believe why theyre not getting absorbed, they are directly infused with chakra and are different from natural water or lightning 
its the same with dotons, they are infused with chakra itself so they get absorbed, 

Groundbreaking stuff Argus.[/QUOTE]

thanks mate


----------



## Bonly (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I ain't getting use to shit, son. Don't try and get around me like that.



Yes you are boy, you gonna get use to it and you gonna like.



> I showed you, Onoki could get into the air and fly above the clouds.



I showed you Hashi has ways to hit Onoki before he gets that high.



> I then said if the fucking Gracious Deity Gates did come into contact with Onoki he could use the Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique to literally hold them and throw them to the wayside.



I then said that if Onoki did get hit he'll be slowed down and won't keep flying as if nothing happened thus allowing Hashi to use Mokuton to attack Onoki and keep him down.



> If not that Onoki could use the opposite making him super fast and avoiding them...



And here's the problem. What proof do you have that Onoki lighting himself with make him fast enough to just avoid them? All you're doing is saying he will but not backing it up



> That's like me saying Hashirama doesn't magically start the battle with any of his Mokuton constructs. It's pointless...



Kinda like saying flight is an auto win is pointless?



> So Hashirama dodges all Jinton, Onoki dodges/apprehends all gates; now he is in the sky above the clouds - can Hashirama get him, yes or no?



Yes, Hashi makes the gates fall down from above Onoki even while he's that high 



> You know how Hashirama is summoning the Sage Art: Gracious Deity Gates, what's stopping him being pummeled in the fact by a Byakugo Tsunade. Or Raikage Raiton Armour LV2 punching in the gut making him say oh lord...





You how how Hashi is summoning the Sage Art: Gracious Deity Gates, what's stopping him from using wood clones to help deal the other members of the Gokage as well as drop gates around them making them say oh lord...


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 7, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yes you are boy, you gonna get use to it and you gonna like.


Here comes BurningVegeta again!



> I showed you Hashi has ways to hit Onoki before he gets that high.


This point has been completely negated because of either of these scenarios.


BurningVegeta said:


> Onoki has more than one way to deal with even the biggest of Hashirama's biggest Mokuton:
> 
> Dust Release directly to Hashirama, ignoring the rest of the Mokuton construct. Yet you know I was going to say that didn't you?
> Earth Release: Added-Weight Rock Technique, slowing that friend down.
> ...





> I then said that if Onoki did get hit he'll be slowed down and won't keep flying as if nothing happened thus allowing Hashi to use Mokuton to attack Onoki and keep him down.


Slowed down and protected by his fellow Gokage? If he Jinton the Sage Art: Gate of the Great God into dust how will he be slowed down? Either way, I'm not accepting Hashirama is going to have enough time to follow up his Sage Art - Gracious Deity Gates with another Mokuton that's going to wipe Onoki off the map. 

If Onoki was aiming to reach the sky by the time Hashirama realises what is going on Onoki will have reached his destination faster than his GPS can comprehend. Hashirama cannot counter the Five Kage all at once after he's just tried to apprehend them with his almighty fucking gates. You saw how surprised he was when Madara and Obito got out...
​


> And here's the problem. What proof do you have that Onoki lighting himself with make him fast enough to just avoid them? All you're doing is saying he will but not backing it up


Excuse me? If he's made the Gracious Deity Gates super light... and made himself super light - I'm pretty sure he'll escape. His speed jutsu was enough to:

...tag base Madara!
...spam around the battlefield rescuing the Gokage.
...guard against something considered to be a Susanoo's only projectile attack.
...stopped two meteorites while he was in the air, that's nothing supporting him.
DON'T UNDERESTIMATE CHOKEIJUGAN! 


> Kinda like saying flight is an auto win is pointless?





That's the thing I've never, ever said Onoki's flight gives him and the Gokage an automatic win. I've never said regardless of any combination of moves or techniques the Gokage use give them an automatic win. I've never said they win with little effort or anything alike, Bonly. Stop mincing my words with your hype. I am merely presenting you with the manga to show the likes of the Gokage when looking at them in detail could provide Hashirama with a battlle. A battle they have a chance of winning...


> Yes, Hashi makes the gates fall down from above Onoki even while he's that high


Give me some proof Hashirama can summon shit that high in the sky and I'll call it quits because if he could, Onoki would be trying to avoid them all day in theory.

 ...I'm pretty sure, there is no evidence to support this though.

Go for it though. Don't ignore this though, this can easily add weight to your argument, THOUGH!



> You how how Hashi is summoning the Sage Art: Gracious Deity Gates, what's stopping him from using wood clones to help deal the other members of the Gokage as well as drop gates around them making them say oh lord...


Hashirama has never been shown to use Mokuton Bunshin whilst in Sage Mode. Probably cause' it would fuck up his Chakra levels. So if no Sage Art, no... Myojinmon! So rethink how the combinations of Hashirama's assault plays out in your head. I'm assuming this is Hashirama at his strongest so if he does create clones they're just be regular Mokuton ones that cannot use Sage Arts.

The other Gokage are quite capable of synchronizing their techs to stop Hashirama doing whatever the fuck he likes. Madara didn't like executing his power to deal with the Gokage being 5 vs 1 and neither will Hashirama no doubt but this is PURELY speculation.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Dude you don't know Gaara controls his sand, that's like me arguing what 24578 x 400 is when you don't even know what 2 x 4 is. So yes it is quite hard as I came into this debate confident you new the basics of Naruto and it's clear you do not.



Hashirama has shown that he can make wood from his body. And he created his wood out of nothing, thus it was chakra constructs.

Show me Gaara doing such a thing, at least once. Show me Gaara creating the sand from nothing, not controlling the sand which can be a... simple, not chakra-made sand. Explain to me why Gaara couldnt create huge masses of sand to beat, lets say, MS Sasuke when he attacked Kage Summit.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Hey Rocky, if you look at life that's not how the truth works.



This isn't life, it's an interpretation of a Japanese comic. Yours is wrong.

Base Hashirama mollywhops the five Kage.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This isn't life, it's an interpretation of a Japanese comic. Yours is wrong.
> 
> Base Hashirama mollywhops the five Kage.


I'm pretty sure this is life I'm in, like real life. Pretty sure you're telling me just because a select number of people believe something, like the majority then they're right. That's horse shit! You are wrong but who am I to tell you how to live, I'm only one guy... go to the masses to see your answers Rocky!



Don't be so ignorant dude, it's not even funny.






StarWanderer said:


> Hashirama has shown that he can make wood from his body. And he created his wood out of nothing, thus it was chakra constructs.
> 
> Show me Gaara doing such a thing, at least once. Show me Gaara creating the sand from nothing, not controlling the sand which can be a... simple, not chakra-made sand. Explain to me why Gaara couldnt create huge masses of sand to beat, lets say, MS Sasuke when he attacked Kage Summit.


Dude, did you re-read the manga yet? Bits I'd like you to read closely are the Chunin Exams. Gaara vs Kimimaro THAT's all part 1. Then move onto part 2 with Gaara vs Deidara, Gaara vs the Third Kazekage and Gokage vs Madara. You can probably skip the rest but I advise you to check your facts when you're debating with me first.

Also... look up what a Chakra construct it. An example of this is Susanoo, a  Rasengan ... ummm now let's see Kaiten. Pure chakra creating chakra constructs.


This here is a good  to learn stuff too. Might help you fill in some gaps!


...such error! Knowledge lack. Dat help!


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This isn't life, it's an interpretation of a Japanese comic. Yours is wrong.
> 
> Base Hashirama mollywhops the five Kage.


Just Mokujin is enough?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I'm pretty sure this is life I'm in, like real life. Pretty sure you're telling me just because a select number of people believe something, like the majority then they're right. That's horse shit! You are wrong but who am I to tell you how to live, I'm only one guy... go to the masses to see your answers Rocky!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be so ignorant dude, it's not even funny.




 Is that why he got an award and you didn't?


----------



## Rocky (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> I'm pretty sure this is life I'm in, like real life. Pretty sure you're telling me just because a select number of people believe something, like the majority then they're right. That's horse shit! You are wrong but who am I to tell you how to live, I'm only one guy... go to the masses to see your answers Rocky!



You're acting as if I'm trying to claim that slavery was justified 'cause the majority of people were greedy.

That isn't this.

This is seven or eight mostly credible individuals reading one thing & coming to the same conclusion, and you reading it & coming to a completely different one.

That isn't you being on to something because your interpretation is unpopular.

That is you being wrong.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Just Mokujin is enough?



The Wood Human that can catch Bijudama and the Wood Dragon that can wrestle with Full-BM Nardo are enough, yes. Those two can be used alongside other Mokuton techniques though, so it isn't really even close. Imagine trying to avoid being smashed by the Mokujin while the entire landscape is turned into sleep-inducing forestry.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Here comes BurningVegeta again!



Here comes Bonly again!



> This point has been completely negated because of either of these scenarios.



This point has been completely negated because your scenarios don't involve what we were talking about.



> Slowed down and protected by his fellow Gokage?



No, slowed down to protect himself.



> If he Jinton the Sage Art: Gate of the Great God into dust how will he be slowed down?



So first your answer to the gates was "Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique" to get around them and now you're changing it to him using Jinton. Either way Onoki has to stop and charge up a Jinton and shoot it towards the falling gates as oppose to him just flying up if there was no gates falling.



> Either way, I'm not accepting Hashirama is going to have enough time to follow up his Sage Art - Gracious Deity Gates with another Mokuton that's going to wipe Onoki off the map.



I never said another Mokuton attack right afterwords would wipe him off the map, just knock him to the group/keep him down(at a low level) so not sure where you got that from but ok. Either way it doesn't matter even if you don't accept it you're still wrong 



> If Onoki was aiming to reach the sky by the time Hashirama realises what is going on Onoki will have reached his destination faster than his GPS can comprehend. Hashirama cannot counter the Five Kage all at once after he's just tried to apprehend them with his almighty fucking gates.



Hashi is a sensor, if Onoki starts flying the Hashi is gonna notice some chakra constantly raising and if he can make 10 gates drop down at once, he's not gonna have a problem sending one to go towards Onoki.



> You saw how surprised he was when Madara and Obito got out...
> ​



He wasn't surprised that Madara got out.



> Excuse me? If he's made the Gracious Deity Gates super light... and made himself super light-I'm pretty sure he'll escape.



Then prove it.



> His speed jutsu was enough to:
> 
> ...tag base Madara!
> ...spam around the battlefield rescuing the Gokage.
> ...




...Onoki never tagged Madara personally while using his light weight jutsu.
...Onoki never "spam around the battlefield" rescuing the Gokage, he saved the one(s) that was near him.
...You mean Onoki with the help of Gaara was able to "guard against something considered to be a Susanoo's only projectile attack."
...You mean Onoki stopped one with help from Gaara then had a second crash into the first one.

He never "spammed around the battlefield" rescuing the other memebrs of the Gokage, he only saved the ones that was near him(which was A the few times he did such)



> DON'T UNDERESTIMATE CHOKEIJUGAN!



DON'T OVERESTIMATE CHOKEIJUGAN!




> That's the thing I've never, ever said Onoki's flight gives him and the Gokage an automatic win.



"flying is an auto win because once Onoki is up here:[Inser picture of Onoki carrying the turtle island"

I stopped reading this parts bullshit here. You already said that flight give him an auto win in a previous post, don't lie.



> ...I'm pretty sure, there is no evidence to support this though.
> 
> Go for it though. Don't ignore this though, this can easily add weight to your argument, THOUGH!



Hashi can make the gate fall down from the skies so he can make the gates fall from even higher, I'm sure of it.



> Hashirama has never been shown to use Mokuton Bunshin whilst in Sage Mode. Probably cause' it would fuck up his Chakra levels. So if no Sage Art, no... Myojinmon!



Hashi is in Sage Mode here when he makes five wood clones here.



> So rethink how the combinations of Hashirama's assault plays out in your head. I'm assuming this is Hashirama at his strongest so if he does create clones they're just be regular Mokuton ones that cannot use Sage Arts.



Rethink your replies as you should pay attention to what people say as I didn't say he would make clones upon which said clones would be in Sage Mode, I just said he'd make clones. 



> The other Gokage are quite capable of synchronizing their techs to stop Hashirama doing whatever the fuck he likes.



Ahh must be why they kept synchronizing their techs to stop Madara using Mokuton, oh wait they couldn't and could only rely on Onoki who you think is gonna fly up to the sky and leave everyone else 



> Madara didn't like executing his power to deal with the Gokage being 5 vs 1 and neither will Hashirama no doubt but this is PURELY speculation.



And I'm sure none of the Gokage will like it if Hashi made them blind with his genjutsu to give him the upper hand neither no doubt but this is PURELY speculation


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 7, 2015)

@Rocky, my interpretation is an extensive study. Those guys just read it in doing some don't even understand how Jinton works. I've had Gaara controlling his sand without Chakra. We've also seen people creating and manipulating the situation with fiction to suit their desired outcomes. All of these things I have seen with little proofs and lots of linear power scaling. Last time I checked that wasn't acceptable in the Naruto universe. I'm merely ironing out the creases in a lot of arguments here.

@NarutoX28, award? What the fuck are we talking about here? Rocky over there or the legit movie Rock?


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

> Onoki has more than one way to deal with even the biggest of Hashirama's biggest Mokuton:
> 
> Dust Release directly to Hashirama, ignoring the rest of the Mokuton construct. Yet you know I was going to say that didn't you?
> Earth Release: Added-Weight Rock Technique, slowing that friend down.
> ...



1. Prove that his Dust Release can damage Hashirama's mokuton constructs, such as the one he used to protect himself against Bijuu Dama. I already proved that some Databook statements can be hiperbole, or just simply wrong and  in the Databook it is said Hashirama can absorb chakra with that technique with which he negated Bijuu Dama. Hashirama can absorb Jinton with that - GG for Onoki. 
2. Onoki cannot touch Hashirama. SM Hashirama is a lot faster than even V2 Raikage, what Onoki suppose to do here? The moment he is in close range, SM Hashirama kills him. And Hashirama is fast enough to avoid Jinton. Plus, he is a sensor. He can simply exhauste Onoki.
3. To 1 meteor. And the moment he is close to Buddah - he gets demolished into nothingness.
4. Hashirama goes out thanks to his mokuton.



> Slowed down and protected by his fellow Gokage? If he Jinton the Sage Art: Gate of the Great God into dust how will he be slowed down? Either way, I'm not accepting Hashirama is going to have enough time to follow up his Sage Art - Gracious Deity Gates with another Mokuton that's going to wipe Onoki off the map.
> 
> If Onoki was aiming to reach the sky by the time Hashirama realises what is going on Onoki will have reached his destination faster than his GPS can comprehend. Hashirama cannot counter the Five Kage all at once after he's just tried to apprehend them with his almighty fucking gates. You saw how surprised he was when Madara and Obito got out...



LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Onoki isnt flying with such a speed Hashirama cant hit him when he is reaching great hight. Not even close. 

And even if he is in the air from the beginning, SM Hashirama can:

1. Avoid Jinton thanks to his speed.
2. Protect himself from Jinton with his Hobi Technique, which can absorb Onoki's Jinton (want me to show that to you that Databook statement again?). Or he can protect himself from Jinton with his mokuton constructs. Juubito's more powerfull 4 Releases Jinton was stopped by Sasuke's imperfect Susanoo's hand, although it was damaged. Hashirama's mokuton can aither absorb, or stop Jinton.
3. Irritate Onoki with his mokuton clones. 

And because of all of that, Onoki gets exhausted and goes to the ground, where he dies.



> Excuse me? If he's made the Gracious Deity Gates super light... and made himself super light - I'm pretty sure he'll escape. His speed jutsu was enough to:
> 
> ...tag base Madara!
> ...spam around the battlefield rescuing the Gokage.
> ...



1. Prove that he can do anything while being sealed. Edo Madara couldnt do anything while being under those gates. 
2. He never tagged base Madara, he never tagged even Edo Madara (who is inferior to alive base EMS Madara in terms of physical characteristics, such as speed), who easily reacted to him multiple times. Edo Madara even traced lightened Ei's movements. Lightened Onoki has no chance of reacting to SM Hashirama.
3. So what?
4. Yeah, with Gaara's help. And even then, his earth construct was damaged.
5. So what? Is that a great speed feat?

It wont help Onoki, at all.



> That's the thing I've never, ever said Onoki's flight gives him and the Gokage an automatic win. I've never said regardless of any combination of moves or techniques the Gokage use give them an automatic win. I've never said they win with little effort or anything alike, Bonly. Stop mincing my words with your hype. I am merely presenting you with the manga to show the likes of the Gokage when looking at them in detail could provide Hashirama with a battlle. A battle they have a chance of winning...



They cant win against SM Hashirama, who is many times greater than aither of them in any area and can protect himself from their any attacks, including Jinton.



> Give me some proof Hashirama can summon shit that high in the sky and I'll call it quits because if he could, Onoki would be trying to avoid them all day in theory.
> 
> ...I'm pretty sure, there is no evidence to support this though.
> 
> Go for it though. Don't ignore this though, this can easily add weight to your argument, THOUGH!



Its highly debatable if he can, or cannot do that. Those gates fell from a great hight, as i remember. Maybe even greater than max hight Onoki has ever reached.

And i want you to show me any of Onoki's feats to suggest he can avoid a whole rain of those things.



> Hashirama has never been shown to use Mokuton Bunshin whilst in Sage Mode. Probably cause' it would fuck up his Chakra levels. So if no Sage Art, no... Myojinmon! So rethink how the combinations of Hashirama's assault plays out in your head. I'm assuming this is Hashirama at his strongest so if he does create clones they're just be regular Mokuton ones that cannot use Sage Arts.
> 
> The other Gokage are quite capable of synchronizing their techs to stop Hashirama doing whatever the fuck he likes. Madara didn't like executing his power to deal with the Gokage being 5 vs 1 and neither will Hashirama no doubt but this is PURELY speculation.



Cant create mokuton clones while being in Sage Mode? Realy? And you are talking about my poor manga knowledge?

Those clones can give Onoki lots of trouble while the real one spams his tech. And SM Hashirama is a lot faster than anyone in Gokage, they cant stop his tech. They couldnt against Edo Madara - alive SM Hashirama beats them without any problem.



LOL, "fuck up his chakra levels"... Prove that.

Also, Hashirama's mindset is different from Madara's. So i want you to prove Hashirama wont use his most powerfull mokuton constructs against Gokage. Even Guruguru's low level vertion of Shinsuusenju was enough to stop Gokage, what they suppose to do against prime alive SM Hashirama?



> This is a nice scan Empathy, congrats to you. However I can claim Gaara stopped controlling that sand as soon as he saw Madara take the impact of that Rasengan, couldn't he?
> Spoiler:
> 
> ...either way it's clear Madara wasn't absorbing much Chakra if any at all, once that was happening. As you can see it - moving - whilst Madara is absorbing the Suiton, Raiton and Jinton. So I initially wanted StarWanderer to answer me how Gaara was doing that without any Chakra. It's almost like Madara couldn't absorb something made purely from Chakra (Suiton, Raiton and Jinton) and something not made entirely of Chakra (Gaara's Sand) at the same time.
> ...



The sand itself cannot be absorbed. Madara was absorbing the chakra which controlled the sand, but not the sand itself which is *not* chakra. He also was absorbing Gokage's chakra technique pretty well, just as the chakra which controlled the sand.

But, as i wrote before, not the sand itself.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 7, 2015)

Pretty sure Wood Golem just finger flicks Onoki before he can gain some distance.

 ^ Correction: Base Hashirama is even faster than V2 Ei. 

 Hashirama was also limited to using those clones because of having to maintain the barrier, so he could've made many stronger clones had he not have to worry about the barrier.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 7, 2015)

Bonly it's an automatic win once he's in the sky at that level as like I said he can't touch Onoki at that point, you then said he could use the Gates of God. I asked you to prove he can summon them being so far away from Onoki, you're still yet to redeem yourself with this point. There's no point moving on until you activity say something about this - how you do that is up to you. I've answered all your points, questions etc... now show me so proof, cause' me skimming over your texts I cannot see anything.

StarWanderer stop making this so easy.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 7, 2015)

Reasonable powerscaling is perfectly acceptable and has always been. It's how we knew the Sage of Six Paths didn't lose to Ebisu for 90% of the story. 

Madara literally told Onoki that the reason he was still alive is the same reason that a grown man would not beat the piss out of a child. He never took these Kage seriously. The entire thing was a game, and the _one time_ the Kage almost accomplished something, Madara activated Perfect Susano'o and Onoki & friends simultaneously shat themselves. 

Hashirama, in Base, dealt with Perfect Susano'o _and_ The Nine Tailed Fox at the same damn time. The Kage don't measure up to either of those entities, let alone the both.

Sage Mode isn't needed, but it multiplies Hashirama's power by a numeral over 10, which is overkill to the max.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

> Dude, did you re-read the manga yet? Bits I'd like you to read closely are the Chunin Exams. Gaara vs Kimimaro THAT's all part 1. Then move onto part 2 with Gaara vs Deidara, Gaara vs the Third Kazekage and Gokage vs Madara. You can probably skip the rest but I advise you to check your facts when you're debating with me first.
> 
> Also... look up what a Chakra construct it. An example of this is Susanoo, a Rasengan ... ummm now let's see Kaiten. Pure chakra creating chakra constructs.
> 
> ...



Dude, realy... 

In a fight with Kimimaro, he used his chakra to re-shape rocks and minerals into the sand. But that sand was not a chakra - it was a natural sand.



There is also a reason why he always carry the goured sand with him, dont you think?

Gaara vs Deidara and Third Kazekage... Dude, have you noticed where they were fighting? 

I advice *you* to re-read the manga before debating with me.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Bonly it's an automatic win once he's in the sky at that level as like I said he can't touch Onoki at that point, you then said he could use the Gates of God. *I asked you to prove he can summon them being so far away from Onoki, you're still yet to redeem yourself with this point. There's no point moving on until you activity say something about this -* how you do that is up to you. I've answered all your points, questions etc... now show me so proof, cause' me skimming over your texts I cannot see anything.
> 
> StarWanderer stop making this so easy.



You claimed Onoki can just dodge the gates. I ask for proof. You never provide such proof and just keep saying he can do it and that you're sure of it but that's it.

I claimed Hashi can make the gate pop up even higher. You ask for proof. I never provide such proof and just say he can do it and that I'm sure of it but that's it.

See how that turned out when someone uses your way about making claims? Thank you for proving that you're a Hypocrite with the bold, I basically copied your logic to see how you would react and you played the part perfectly, concession accepted.


----------



## BurningVegeta (Mar 7, 2015)

Bonly, can you read? Serious question! ...cause I even presented you a situation where Onoki was caught by them and then explained how he could get out. I'm sorry if that isn't good enough for you mate but the manga supports everything I said.

...oh fuck me. So I can't say Onoki can do "X" with proofs but Hashirama can do "X" because you're sure of it? 

Go home mate, you're done. That is so fucking unfair for you to say. I'm bending over backwards, finding scans, databooks... to show my claims and support them ...and to be honest I'm not even bending over backwards because I look for the evidence and it is right - fucking - there. You can just do whatever you want and say whatever you want without any grounds though right, that's ludicrous man and hypocritical. Show me the proof or stop your ramblings, yo.





Rocky said:


> Reasonable powerscaling is perfectly acceptable and has always been. It's how we knew the Sage of Six Paths didn't lose to Ebisu for 90% of the story.
> 
> Madara literally told Onoki that the reason he was still alive is the same reason that a grown man would not beat the piss out of a child. He never took these Kage seriously. The entire thing was a game, and the _one time_ the Kage almost accomplished something, Madara activated Perfect Susano'o and Onoki & friends simultaneously shat themselves.
> 
> ...


Karin taking a huge hormonal shit on Garugaru totally freight trains everything you just said. If you want to think in context this manga is linear, I have news for you it isn't. I'm not fucking talking about ninja considered shit tier and others considered to be gods fighting am I? No I'm not, not at all. Ebisu vs the Sage of Six Paths, are you shitting me Rocky? This is five capable Kage level against one person said to be a god... who died on the battlefield to a set of people/person who wasn't a god.


StarWanderer said:


> Dude, realy...
> 
> In a fight with Kimimaro, he used his chakra to re-shape rocks and minerals into the sand. But that sand was not a chakra - it was a natural sand.
> 
> ...



...dat knowledge improving, so improving, weak still!

Awww, that's a good lad. Finally you're getting somewhere... but I need you to go even further back to the first fight Gaara had in the Chunin exams. 

Anyway the question for you is, how did, Gaara break down that earth into sand? 10 MARK QUESTION


----------



## Bonly (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Bonly, can you read? Serious question! ...cause I even presented you a situation where Onoki was caught by them and then explained how he could get out.



Can you read? Serious question!... cause I even presented you a situation where Onoki could get out but is attacked by Mokuton after being slowed down.



> I'm sorry if that isn't good enough for you mate but the manga supports everything I said.



Sadly it does not, you should take another look at the manga.



> ...oh fuck me. So I can't say Onoki can do "X" with proofs but Hashirama can do "X" because you're sure of it?



Since it seems to work for you saying Onoki avoids the gates with no proof, sure.



> Go home mate, you're done.



I'm already home, and you're right, I already accepted your concession but I'll do it a second time just for you 



> Shit nobody cares about



Stop crying like a little girl. Most of the shit you did was with others, not me upon which I don't care about. Don't like it then stop making these claims which are wrong.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 7, 2015)

BurningVegeta said:


> Karin taking a huge hormonal shit on Garugaru totally freight trains everything you just said. If you want to think in context this manga is linear, I have news for you it isn't.



Karin did not defeat Zetsu by herself. She counted one technique with a powerful ability she possess that is specifically geared towards combating creatures like that giant statue. 



> I'm not fucking talking about ninja considered shit tier and others considered to be gods fighting am I? No I'm not, not at all. Ebisu vs the Sage of Six Paths, are you shitting me Rocky?



Hagoromo didn't have any panel time for the majority of the story, so the only way you can even come to this conclusion is linear powerscaling. You are contradicting yourself. 



> This is five capable Kage level against one person said to be a god... who died on the battlefield to a set of people/person who wasn't a god.



The five capable Kage you are overestimating got steamrolled by Perfect Susano'o, which is pathetically weaker than what Hashirama can dish out at full power.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

> ...dat knowledge improving, so improving, weak still!
> 
> Awww, that's a good lad. Finally you're getting somewhere... but I need you to go even further back to the first fight Gaara had in the Chunin exams.
> 
> Anyway the question for you is, how did, Gaara break down that earth into sand? 10 MARK QUESTION



Oh realy? You made a statement that SM Hashirama has never created clones, i proved you to be wrong. 

You made a stupid statement about Gaara's sand which i countered already. He can make a natural sand from minerals and earth. And he controls only the natural sand. He cant create a sand chakra construct, yet you are writing he can...

Plus, even if he could, whats the purpose to do such a thing against someone who can absorb a ninjutsu? Gaara would have been an idiot if he did such a thing. But he cant make a sand from chakra and he is not an idiotic character. 

And i proved that Databook statements cant be blindly trusted. There is such a thing as hyperbole and some of Databook statements have been contradicted by the absolute canon - Manga.

Re-read the manga before debating with me and use logic. You are not doing well in this debate, because i countered your every arguement.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

And i am waiting for you to reply to my post, Vegeta. Because up to this moment, you havent replied to that post.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2015)

ok burning vegeta very simple question onoki flies so high hashirama cant reach him. then what????

does onoki jinton have the scale to destroy budda??? how many jintons can he use?

if onoki is up high he wont even be able to see hashirama who would be nothing more than a spec of dust compared to budda. 

onoki auto screws himself by flying up so high. because his main target hashirama can just get off budda and be at ground level. leaving onoki with no other choice but to keep spamming jinton at budda. 

if he gets in close to try and weigh it down he eats a punch

if yamato budda could tag Ei despite Ei speed onoki gets bitch slapped. 

anywayz every single poster has already told u. hashirama in a linear scale or in any scale>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gokage


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

> does onoki jinton have the scale to destroy budda??? how many jintons can he use?



This thing says hello to Onoki's Jinton.



Why? Maybe because Vegeta havent proved Jinton can dismantle Hashirama's most durable mokuton constructs. Maybe because it is said in the Databook that Wood Release Hobi Technique  partly absorbed Bijuu Dama's explosion to weaken it, so it can absorb Jinton without any problem. Vegeta loves Databook statements which have been contradicted by manga... 

By the way, he seems to not care about what Edo Madara sayd to Gokage, how weak they were compare to Hashirama and how childish that fight was compare to his battle with Hashirama in The Valley of The End...


----------



## Veracity (Mar 7, 2015)

Lol . Base Hashirama would wreck the Gokage low difficulty.

I don't know how anyone thinks Onnoki is a problem for the God of Shinobi.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 7, 2015)




----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

This thread is old, but nevertheless, i want to add one thing.

Edo Madara turned around, moved his hand in front of Jinton beam's direction and activated Preta Path before it reached him.





The same Edo Madara, with whom Edo Hashirama could compete in close combat. And their Shunshin was equaly fast.





A scan of alive Hashirama and Madara, but it's ok. That also benifits me. 





Furthermore, both Edo Madara and Edo Hashirama were not as fast as during their lifetimes.

How Jinton can be a problem for either of them is beyond me.


----------



## Sans (Aug 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You're acting as if I'm trying to claim that slavery was justified 'cause the majority of people were greedy.
> 
> That isn't this.
> 
> ...



I'm going to throw my hat into the ring.

That's seven or eight mostly credible individuals, and Kom, reading one thing and coming to the same conclusion.

So BurningVegeta is probably right.


----------



## Sans (Aug 2, 2015)

Reported for spam, you nerd.

Why are people still taking BurningVegeta seriously?


----------



## Thunder (Aug 2, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Reported for spam, you nerd.








> Why are people still taking BurningVegeta seriously?



Because he's on fire.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

So, it appears that alive Hashirama can move faster than a Jinton's beam. Add there his numerous techniques, Sage Mode, and 5 kages are done. BurningVegeta and Thunder have lost this debate already.


----------



## Thunder (Aug 2, 2015)

I'm on your side, check your facts son.


----------



## Raiken (Aug 2, 2015)

I think Base Hashirama would defeat the Gokage, but it would be close.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I'm on your side, check your facts son.



No problem, son.


----------



## ARGUS (Aug 3, 2015)

Lol the whole point of the gokage fight  was to show how pathetic they were to hashirama in comparison  
hashiramas mokujin fought on par with madaras PS which the gokage shat their pants against and the same technique which humiliated their full power

not seeing why things like jinton are even being mentioned when hashirama can just stop its charge up by smacking onoki down, 
edo madara was able to evade it ON FOOT with a single jump, 
living madara who is much much faster was on par with hashirama in every physical category, now add the enormous SM boost and jinton becomes a non factor, 

base hashirmaam beats the gokage mid diff, 
SM hashirama clowns them 

and i will also say why hashirma/madara are placed on a pedestal, and the answer is simple, its because the manga constanty placed them on such a level where no nongod shinobi was even a contest 

the closest non god shinobi that comes to VOTE hashirama  and Madara is BSM Naruto and he gets mid diffd by hashirama and mid/high diffd by madara, 
SS > PS+Full Kurama >> Full Kurama >= BSM half kurama avatar > 50% BM avatar


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Lol the whole point of the gokage fight  was to show how pathetic they were to hashirama in comparison
> hashiramas mokujin fought on par with madaras PS which the gokage shat their pants against and the same technique which humiliated their full power
> 
> not seeing why things like jinton are even being mentioned when hashirama can just stop its charge up by smacking onoki down,
> ...



Edo Madara effortlessly moved faster than Onoki's Jinton on more than one occasion. 

And i love your gif. Maybe i should start watching Game of Thrones.


----------



## Raiken (Aug 3, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> the closest non god shinobi that comes to VOTE hashirama  and Madara is BSM Naruto and he gets mid diffd by hashirama and mid/high diffd by madara,
> SS > PS+Full Kurama >> Full Kurama >= BSM half kurama avatar > 50% BM avatar


SM Hashirama = EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara > 50% BSM Naruto = Rinnegan/MS Obito w/ 6 Jinchuuriki Paths > BM Naruto = Base Hashirama = EMS Madara > The Gokage > Rinnegan/MS Obito > EMS Sasuke = MS Obito


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 3, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> First time? Tailed Beast Mode Naruto beat the shit out of five Tailed Beasts, and since a single Tailed Beast >>> a Kage, it's fair to say that Naruto got that level of depiction first.



Deidara neg-diffed a wild Sanbi. 

Gaara's dad neg-diffed a wild Shukaku. 

Hidan and Kakuzu captured the two-tails no problem.

Kisame had a relatively easy time capturing the four-tails and Bee.

Then maybe the beasts' portrayal shifted near the end, I didn't focus on the end of the manga too much, but at first, the lesser tailed beasts (1-7) were definitely 'meh' before tough Kage ninjutsu.

Kurama was always the exception, and we were lead to believe that more tails equals more power (KN0, KN1, KN3, KN4, KN6) so the Hachibi being second-strongest was believable as well.​


----------



## Raiken (Aug 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara neg-diffed Sanbi.
> 
> Gaara's dad neg-diffed Shukaku.
> 
> ...


We didn't see the Sanbi fight but later it was implied that it was Obito who did the job by Deidara, he likely used the Sharingan to control it, thus an easy win.
The Bijuu's will is susceptible to Sharingan control, it's not fair to count that.

Hidan and Kakuzu likely went through a very tough fight against the 2 Tails.
It was shown that a lot of the surrounding area's were full on wrecked.

Kisame's a freak of nature because of how he uses Samehada, the stronger the opponents Chakra is, the stronger he becomes, that's why Kisame is crap against someone like Gai, but would be the bane of a Jinchuuriki.
We didn't see the 4 Tails fight, but Kisame likely didn't have to push himself too far because of how his Robes were undamaged.
And B had to hold back against Kisame because he didn't want to be found, and he had to protect that Enka guy and the Panda.

Bijuu's 1-7 do seem to be Mid Kage Level. Hidan and Kakuzu together could likely defeat a Mid Kage level opponent.

Hachibi and 50% Kyuubi are High Kage Level.

100% Kyuubi is Top Level.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> SM Hashirama = EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara > 50% BSM Naruto = Rinnegan/MS Obito w/ 6 Jinchuuriki Paths > BM Naruto = Base Hashirama = EMS Madara > The Gokage > Rinnegan/MS Obito > EMS Sasuke = MS Obito



EMS Madara > 50% BSM Naruto, or BM Naruto, thanks to his PS and EMS precognition.


----------



## Raiken (Aug 3, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> EMS Madara > 50% BSM Naruto, or BM Naruto, thanks to his PS and EMS precognition.


I would agree that Rinnegan Edo-Madara who has Six Paths Chakra thanks to his Ashura+Indra Chakra, as well as Mokuton thanks to Kabuto, is superior to 50% BSM Naruto and on par with SM Hashirama.

But EMS Madara was implied to be a fair notch below SM Hashirama as he needed 100% Kyuubi to match him.
Also BM Naruto's Chakra levels were compared to Hashirama's.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I would agree that Rinnegan Edo-Madara who has Six Paths Chakra thanks to his Ashura+Indra Chakra, as well as Mokuton thanks to Kabuto, is superior to 50% BSM Naruto and on par with SM Hashirama.
> 
> But EMS Madara was implied to be a fair notch below SM Hashirama as he needed 100% Kyuubi to match him.
> Also BM Naruto's Chakra levels were compared to Hashirama's.



EMS Madara's PS can counter any of Naruto's attacks with its shockwaves. And it is very durable, capable of withstanding full Kurama's TBB without even a scratch. Naruto cant use Kurama Avatar for a very long time. When his Kurama Avatar is gone, Madara can slice him with PS shockwaves.


----------



## ARGUS (Aug 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Edo Madara effortlessly moved faster than Onoki's Jinton on more than one occasion.
> 
> And i love your gif. Maybe i should start watching Game of Thrones.



Yeah definitely, 
I even said it in my post how a single jump from him was enough to evade it's radius 

Lol you should watch it. It's much better and well thought than Naruto 



Cryorex said:


> SM Hashirama = EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara > 50% BSM Naruto = Rinnegan/MS Obito w/ 6 Jinchuuriki Paths > BM Naruto = Base Hashirama = EMS Madara > The Gokage > Rinnegan/MS Obito > EMS Sasuke = MS Obito



Yeah more or less except that Hashirama is actually superior to vote madara whilst EMS madara and base hashi are superior to BM Naruto 

SM Hashirama > VOTE Madara > BSM Naruto >=< Edo Madara > BM Minato > Rinnegan Tobi w/Bijuu > EMS madara > base Hashirama > BM Naruto >> EMS Sasuke


----------



## Raiken (Aug 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> EMS Madara's PS can counter any of Naruto's attacks with its shockwaves. And it is very durable, capable of withstanding full Kurama's TBB without even a scratch. Naruto cant use Kurama Avatar for a very long time. When his Kurama Avatar is gone, Madara can slice him with PS shockwaves.


Naruto can use the Avatar for around 8-10 Minutes, in a battle that's a very long time.
And Naruto has shown the ability to use far larger Bijuu Dama's than the one 100% Kurama used against Hashirama; he can also fire standard sized ones in rapid succession.
Naruto's Kyuubi Avatar is far more agile and manoeuvrable when compared to Madara's PS.

Chakra Capacity: Naruto
Destructive Capacity: Naruto
Speed of Offence: Madara
Agility/Mobility: Naruto
Speed: Naruto
Defence: Madara? "Naruto's Tails did tank Juubi Beam."

I don't see where the argument comes from for EMS Madara > BM Naruto, swear people are giving his 100% Kyuubi-PS feats to EMS Madara which is not fair.

I still hold true to:

Rinnegan Madara "w/o Limbo" = SM Hashirama > BM+SM Naruto > Base Hashirama = EMS Madara = BM Naruto


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 4, 2015)

> Naruto can use the Avatar for around 8-10 Minutes, in a battle that's a very long time.
> And Naruto has shown the ability to use far larger Bijuu Dama's than the one 100% Kurama used against Hashirama; he can also fire standard sized ones in rapid succession.
> Naruto's Kyuubi Avatar is far more agile and manoeuvrable when compared to Madara's PS.



And PS can detonate all of them with it's shockwaves.

Madara could make lots of PS's blade-Bijuu Dama combinations in almost an instant while fighting Hashirama.



> Chakra Capacity: Naruto
> Destructive Capacity: Naruto
> Speed of Offence: Madara
> Agility/Mobility: Naruto
> ...



Madara's PS is good enough to hold its own against Naruto's Kurama Avatar until it goes away. When it goes away, EMS Madara cuts Naruto down with multiple shockwaves.



> I don't see where the argument comes from for EMS Madara > BM Naruto, swear people are giving his 100% Kyuubi-PS feats to EMS Madara which is not fair.



EMS Madara's PS was pretty fast, capable of making many  TBB-blade combinations in a very short period of time.

And Madara has EMS precognition, with which Sasuke, for example, could track Juubito's movements.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 4, 2015)

Because the two were the Naruto and Sasuke of the last manga


----------



## Amol (Aug 4, 2015)

As far as I am concerned BSM Naruto is stronger than Hashirama and Madara.
Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me from story perspective.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 4, 2015)

Because they'd shit on anyone who isn't a JJ or a shinobi around that ballpark. People around their level appeared by the end of the war arc, and many sharks had to be jumped in order for that to happen.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 4, 2015)

What Grimmjow said plus I think people forget that Hashirama did spank Edo Madara's PS, something the Gokage were practically useless against. Hashirama is probably the strongest shinobi without a rikuodo power up, except for perhaps 8th Gated Gai.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 4, 2015)

Hashirama Senju is the ultimate shinobi. *The strongest shinobi ever, except 8 Gate Gai and Godlikes.* Everyone else loses to him. His feats, his portrayal - he is above everyone else. 
*
God of Shinobi, Hashirama Senju. *


----------

