# kakashi vs hiruzen



## richard lewis (Jan 29, 2014)

Location - open field
Knowledge - none
Conditions - kamui and death god are restricted


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 29, 2014)

Edo Hiruzen? Prime Hiruzen? Or Old Hiruzen?

Edo Hiruzen wins even with Kamui unrestricted, around Mid-Diff with Kamui and Easy-Diff without. 
Prime Hiruzen (basically Edo Hiruzen without the regeneration) beats Kakashi with Kamui, High-Diff, without Kamui, Easy-Mid diff.
Old Hiruzen looses with or without Kamui, without Kamui, Kakashi would still win Mid-Diff and with Kamui he would win Easy-Diff.


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## Bonly (Jan 29, 2014)

Kakashi wins more times then not. He avoids all of Hiruzen's attacks until Hiruzen gets tired then Kakashi finish off Hiruzen.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 29, 2014)

Kakashi should win in taijutsu with speed, strength, and sharingan advantages, even though Enma staff is not joke.

At range, Kakashi has stronger and more focused mid range attacks, and doton digging to escape spam it would be elementally disadvantageous to try and counter.  However Kakashi has three of the 5 elements himself, so he's not really bad off there.

So in range, Kakashi will defend and out last, or get close, and up close, he should also win.


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## richard lewis (Jan 29, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Edo Hiruzen? Prime Hiruzen? Or Old Hiruzen?
> 
> Edo Hiruzen wins even with Kamui unrestricted, around Mid-Diff with Kamui and Easy-Diff without.
> Prime Hiruzen (basically Edo Hiruzen without the regeneration) beats Kakashi with Kamui, High-Diff, without Kamui, Easy-Mid diff.
> Old Hiruzen looses with or without Kamui, without Kamui, Kakashi would still win Mid-Diff and with Kamui he would win Easy-Diff.



Basically edo hiruzen w/o regen, assume he doesn't have the chakra constraints he had against Oro.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2014)

Old Hiruzen would beat Kakashi. Hiruzen counters Kakashi's Raiton w/ Fuuton, Doton to counter Suiton, and his own Raitons to counter Kakashi's Dotons. Kakashi really does not have much beyond that without Kamui. Hiruzen is equally skilled in CQC, especially with Enma and clones. Both have equivalent stamina, so I have no clue where people are getting that  Hiruzen will run out first, and ultimately Old Hiruzen is superior to Kakashi in every other regard. So yeah Hiruzen wins this one.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 29, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Basically edo hiruzen w/o regen, assume he doesn't have the chakra constraints he had against Oro.



So Hiruzen with Prime Hiruzen level chakra but Old Hiruzen's physical drawbacks? Hybrid Hiruzen? He would still be able to win.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 29, 2014)

I could see non-stamina restrained Hiruzen beating what I assume is Kamui-less Kakashi in a conventional battle. As long as Hiruzen disguises himself within his clones he'll be alright, and he'll have more fire power than Kakashi is capable of matching.

With Kamui though...kakashi can blink and make hiruzen disappear if he wills it, which is probably what will happen when he's pushed into a corner or has acquired a clear shot.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 29, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> With Kamui though...kakashi can blink and make hiruzen disappear if he wills it, which is probably what will happen when he's pushed into a corner or has acquired a clear shot.



That's where Hiruzen's clones and fast Ninjutsu would come in.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 29, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> That's where Hiruzen's clones and fast Ninjutsu would come in.


No, they really wouldn't.

At this point it's clear Kakashi can warp an AoE the size of GM's arm, that casually makes an army of clones disappear. None of his Ninjutsu would help, Kakashi would warp behind him, then warp him. 

He obviously also hinted to warping the Juubi himself, and apparently had enough confidence to warp 5 TBBs. Whether or not he could is not relevant though.


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## Luftwaffles (Jan 29, 2014)

Kakashi stomps.

Kamui GG.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 29, 2014)

> That's where Hiruzen's clones and fast Ninjutsu would come in.


The clones would buy Hiruzen some time against Kamui but ultimately if I had to be a betting man I'd say the intellectually gifted Kakashi would deduce where Hiruzen is and warp him before he is defeated.

Hiruzen's ninjutsu with the exception of kage Bushin can't do much to stop kamui besides block line of sight. I don't think Kakashi would be in direct line of sight when using Kamui anyway though. Kakashi likes to blindside people.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 29, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> The clones would buy Hiruzen some time against Kamui but ultimately if I had to be a betting man I'd say the intellectually gifted Kakashi would deduce where Hiruzen is and warp him before he is defeated.
> 
> Hiruzen's ninjutsu with the exception of kage Bushin can't do much to stop kamui besides block line of sight. I don't think Kakashi would be in direct line of sight when using Kamui anyway though. Kakashi likes to blindside people.



Hiruzen is also intelligent,and far more experienced in battle then Kakashi. He would expect Kakashi to deduce which is the real one so he would do a double inception (Don't even know how to say it) similar to what Naruto does occasionally with his clones. Also, he can use Ninjutsu very fast with minimal hand signs, given the fact that Kamui is not instant he can use it to block off its field of vision. 

This is of course Prime Hiruzen I'm talking about. 



DaVizWiz said:


> No, they really wouldn't.



At this point it's clear Kakashi can warp an AoE the size of GM's arm, that casually makes an army of clones disappear. None of his Ninjutsu would help, Kakashi would warp behind him, then warp him. 



> He obviously also hinted to warping the Juubi himself, and apparently had enough confidence to warp 5 TBBs. Whether or not he could is not relevant though.



Umm it was confirmed that he cannot Kamui the Jubi back when he needed Kyubi cloack to X3 his Kamui to only Kamui Hachibi, and he got exhausted after he did so. The most he can do would be 1/3  of Hachibi and he would be tired after doing so. Also, to Kamui something of that size it takes him time, in that time Hiruzen can do something to avoid it. Also, if Hiruzen uses Ninjutsu he can block Kakashi's vision of him, or can use clones (4) to fake his way out of Kamui.


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## richard lewis (Jan 29, 2014)

Waffle said:


> Kakashi stomps.
> 
> Kamui GG.





Destiny Monarch said:


> That's where Hiruzen's clones and fast Ninjutsu would come in.





Lawrence777 said:


> The clones would buy Hiruzen some time against Kamui but ultimately if I had to be a betting man I'd say the intellectually gifted Kakashi would deduce where Hiruzen is and warp him before he is defeated.
> 
> Hiruzen's ninjutsu with the exception of kage Bushin can't do much to stop kamui besides block line of sight. I don't think Kakashi would be in direct line of sight when using Kamui anyway though. Kakashi likes to blindside people.



Kamui is restricted here guys!

As for hiruzen using clones kakashi can do the same, and kakashi also has the sharingan to better track clones and decipher them from the original. I would also argue that kakashi can preform his jutsu quicker and more efficiently than hiruzen not to mention that he should be able to copy just about any jutsu hiruzen uses. kakashi also has sharingan genjutsu to distract hiruzen leaving him open for attack.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 29, 2014)

> Umm it was confirmed that he cannot Kamui the Jubi back when he needed Kyubi cloack to X3 his Kamui to only Kamui Hachibi, and he got exhausted after he did so. The most he can do would be 1/3 of Hachibi and he would be tired after doing so. Also, to Kamui something of that size it takes him time, in that time Hiruzen can do something to avoid it. Also, if Hiruzen uses Ninjutsu he can block Kakashi's vision of him, or can use clones (4) to fake his way out of Kamui.


It was never really confirmed. He did it with the chakra enhancement, it does not mean he couldn't do it without it.

I understand what you're getting at, he most likely can't do that or even come close, but he instantly warped a GM arm without really any charge time.

The AoE of GM's arm is certainly large enough to warp all 4 clones, and Hiruzen himself, before they can scale out far enough to avoid warping.

Even if he opted to warp them individually, he could do so. He can use Kamui more than 5 times, and he has a 1/5 chance of defeating Hiruzen at the outset. 1/4 if the first kamui misses, and so on.

IMO he warps him at start battle regardless, clones are summoned around the user, the AoE of his warp hole is large enough to possibly swallow 20+ men standing near each other in one variant. 

And no, the Ninjutsu would do nothing. Kakashi can dig underneath or simply warp 100m above Hiruzen in freefall and then warp him/his clones.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Kamui is restricted here guys!
> 
> As for hiruzen using clones kakashi can do the same, and kakashi also has the sharingan to better track clones and decipher them from the original. I would also argue that kakashi can preform his jutsu quicker and more efficiently than hiruzen not to mention that he should be able to copy just about any jutsu hiruzen uses. kakashi also has sharingan genjutsu to distract hiruzen leaving him open for attack.


- Sharingan can not decipher KB from the original.
- Hiruzen's clones are better than Kakashi's as they don't disperse when hit
- Hiruzen created 4 KB and had than used 5 separate Jutsu , before the elemental blasts Buddha spit out could reach him, demonstrates higher Jutsu execution speed than Kakash has ever shown, bar Kamui and seal-less techs such as Rarikiri
- Kakashi could only copy Jutsu he has the prerequisites to use. He has not shown skill in Fuuton (or Katon) nature alteration, and it's Hiruzen's Fuuton Ninjutsu, that will give him the decisive win here.
- Hiruzen does not rely on his eyes to fight. He was able to target Hashirama and Tobirama perfectly while in total darkness relying on his sense of smell alone. On-top of that he has Enma and KB to break him out of Genjutsu. Chances are extremely slim of Genjutsu making a difference here


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## Luftwaffles (Jan 29, 2014)

Turrin, you do realize Kakashi RKB didn't "disperse" when he attack Pein right?


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## richard lewis (Jan 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Sharingan can not decipher KB from the original.
> - Hiruzen's clones are better than Kakashi's as they don't disperse when hit
> - Hiruzen created 4 KB and had than used 5 separate Jutsu , before the elemental blasts Buddha spit out could reach him, demonstrates higher Jutsu execution speed than Kakash has ever shown, bar Kamui and seal-less techs such as Rarikiri
> - Kakashi could only copy Jutsu he has the prerequisites to use. He has not shown skill in Fuuton (or Katon) nature alteration, and it's Hiruzen's Fuuton Ninjutsu, that will give him the decisive win here.
> - Hiruzen does not rely on his eyes to fight. He was able to target Hashirama and Tobirama perfectly while in total darkness relying on his sense of smell alone. On-top of that he has Enma and KB to break him out of Genjutsu. Chances are extremely slim of Genjutsu making a difference here



kakashi used a suiton fast enough to counter itachi's suiton at close range [Before FRS hit]- No Scratches/Cracks and in that short time frame he was able to make a mizu bushin and hide underwater. [Before FRS hit]- No Scratches/Cracks. kakashi was also able to figure out the real one from the clone and could tell that it was going to explode [Before FRS hit]- No Scratches/Cracks. He preforms his jutsu so quick that even pain with linked vision still couldn't see through his KB's. his jutsu execution speed is faster or at the very least on par with hiruzen, he also has 3 out of the 5 elements which should be enough to keep up b/c futton can be blocked with a doton wall or simply dodge, everything else he has the ability to counter with the same element.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jan 29, 2014)

I don't think base kakashi can tire out Old hiruzen faster than unrestricted & prepped Oro could.

Hiruzen should win mid difficulty; there are very few kages, if any, that base kakashi can defeat


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> kakashi used a suiton fast enough to counter itachi's suiton at close range [Before FRS hit]- No Scratches/Cracks


So Kakashi cast one Jutsu before Itachi's Jutsu could hit him. How is that better than casting 6 Jutsu before Buddha's Jutsu could hit him.



> in that short time frame he was able to make a mizu bushin and hide underwater


Is it a good feat, sure, but not nearly as good as Hiruzen.



> kakashi was also able to figure out the real one from the clone and could tell that it was going to explode [Before FRS hit]- No Scratches/Cracks.


That's precisely because it was an exploding bushin rather than a Kage Bushin. Sharingan has never been able to see through KB and even Byakugan couldn't see through it.



> He preforms his jutsu so quick that even pain with linked vision still couldn't see through his KB's.


That wasn't Jutsu casting speed, that was Kakashi hiding in the ruble and using that as an LOS blocker to KB Feint.



> his jutsu execution speed is faster or at the very least on par with hiruzen


I can understand an argument for on par, but certain not higher.



> , he also has 3 out of the 5 elements which should be enough to keep up b/c futton can be blocked with a doton wall or simply dodge, everything else he has the ability to counter with the same element.


Doton is not the opposing element of Fuuton, that would be Katon, another element Kakashi has not mastered. Kakashi is not evading the scale of Hiruzen's Fuutons ether. Beyond the Fuuton Kakashi also can't counter many of the elemental blasts when used in combination with Bushin.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 29, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> It was never really confirmed. He did it with the chakra enhancement, it does not mean he couldn't do it without it.



Ummm well considering the fact that he was completely exhausted aft using it.............. 



> I understand what you're getting at, he most likely can't do that or even come close, but he instantly warped a GM arm without really any charge time.



He tried to Kamui the HEAD , but was not able to accurately do it and ended up only Kamuiing the hand. 




> The AoE of GM's arm is certainly large enough to warp all 4 clones, and Hiruzen himself, before they can scale out far enough to avoid warping.



Sure, if the clones are back to back for some reason. And like I said, he struggles to accurately Kamui things. He was able to Kamui Naruto because Naruto specifically let himself get Kamuid according to the plan, Hiruzen won't be allowing Kakashi to get a free Kamui. 



> Even if he opted to warp them individually, he could do so. He can use Kamui more than 5 times, and he has a 1/5 chance of defeating Hiruzen at the outset. 1/4 if the first kamui misses, and so on.



Its not as simple as that, he has to accurately aim first and unless the clones stop moving and don't do anything he won't get a clean shot. 



> And no, the Ninjutsu would do nothing. Kakashi can dig underneath or simply warp 100m above Hiruzen in freefall and then warp him/his clones.



If Kakashi attempts to use Kamui on Hiruzen, Hiruzen uses a quick Elemental Jutsu to get Kamuid instead. It is IC for Hiruzen to make clones in his Prime.


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## asstonine (Jan 29, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> The clones would buy Hiruzen some time against Kamui but ultimately if I had to be a betting man I'd say the intellectually gifted Kakashi would deduce where Hiruzen is and warp him before he is defeated.
> 
> Hiruzen's ninjutsu with the exception of kage Bushin can't do much to stop kamui besides block line of sight. I don't think Kakashi would be in direct line of sight when using Kamui anyway though. Kakashi likes to blindside people.



How the fuck does intellect help?  That doesn't make any fucking sense.  That's like saying intellect can help you win the lottery!  It's fucking random!


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## Fiiction (Jan 30, 2014)

Prime Hiruzen rapes.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jan 30, 2014)

those have to be a pair of papaya seeds, no?


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## Mercurial (Jan 30, 2014)

Kakashi speedblitzes. We are talking about one who can land counterblitz and hit with Raikiri the Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 who were troubling Naruto and Bee; one who can outspeed and outreact Obito, a man who's on par with KCM Naruto's no Shunshin speed, aka V1 Raikage. Old Hiruzen has been blitzed by fucking Orochimaru (whose main attribute isn't certainly his speed) and toyed for all the match. If you want to say that Hiruzen is as fast as Hashirama and Tobirama becouse he kept up with them... sure. Just as Karin is as fast as Orochimaru and Suigetsu. Or as Sakura, old ass Chiyo and base Naruto are as fast as motherfucking Kakashi. Or as pt 1 Kiba, pt 1 Choji, pt 1 Neji, pt 1 Naruto are all equally fast. I can continue, obviously. But I don't think it would be needed, it should be obvious that it is really a bad argument here. If you want, Kakashi perfectly kept up with Gated Gai. 

Also that the main argument of a wide speed difference, there is the Sharingan precognition who make this even more like a rape; remember that at VoTE Sasuke was a lot slower than Naruto, with 3 tomoed Sharingan he started to rape him nonethless; Kakashi is a lot faster than Hiruzen. Also Kakashi has shown far better jutsu execution speed, has better feats with bushinjutsu (tricking Itachi and Pain; understand Itachi's trick and countertricking it) and with RKB is actually a real rape. Kakashi has shown that he can dodge Kakuzu's Fuuton: Atsugai (that is really a lot bigger than Hiruzen's ninjuts) used point blank while he was fighting Hidan in CQC with the handicap of a damaged arm, a kunai vs scythe and having to watch team 10's asses. Hiruzen's jutsu would be dodged like nothing; Hiruzen would be tricked and outspeeded than killed with Raikiri or Raiden. It's actually a real rape. Not counting also Sharingan genjutsu, Kakashi's is on par with Obito, so he could make everything he wants with the old Hokage. And Kakashi's MS is also restricted. The Hiruzen wank is becoming ridiculous. Now let's put him against Itachi and Kakashi. Next maybe a Madara vs Hiruzen thread. C'mon.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 30, 2014)

Kakashi wins this. He is much faster and has a lot more stamina to be able to use. Current Kakashi can make those four Shadow Clones and use Kamui and still have some stamina left. That's far more Chakra taxing than what Hiruzen did.



Turrin said:


> - Hiruzen created 4 KB and had than used 5 separate Jutsu , before the elemental blasts Buddha spit out could reach him, demonstrates higher Jutsu execution speed than Kakash has ever shown, bar Kamui and seal-less techs such as Rarikiri



The clones were already out. When Hiruzen says "Got it", he's already making his seal for Ninjutsu. No Shadow Clone seal at all involved.



> - Hiruzen does not rely on his eyes to fight. He was able to target Hashirama and Tobirama perfectly while in total darkness relying on his sense of smell alone. On-top of that he has Enma and KB to break him out of Genjutsu. Chances are extremely slim of Genjutsu making a difference here



Hiruzen's sense of smell is not much better than Kakashi's. Hiruzen couldn't perfectly track them, as he got hit multiple times.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The clones were already out. When Hiruzen says "Got it", he's already making his seal for Ninjutsu. No Shadow Clone seal at all involved.


- The clones weren't on the battlefield before. 
- Your right that by the time Hiruzen says i'm on it, he's already forming the seals for a Katon Ninjutsu, but that is because he already created the Clones by that point, hence the I'm on it statement. 



> Hiruzen's sense of smell is not much better than Kakashi's. Hiruzen couldn't perfectly track them, as he got hit multiple times.


- Why does it matter if it's better than Kakashi's or not? 
- Hiruzen was only hit because he didn't care to dodge, as his clones could tank attacks w/o dispersing and he was going to die anyway. The most important thing was to get of Shiki Fuujin. We very clearly see him accurately target the Edo Hokages within bringer of darkness perfectly.



> Kakashi wins this. He is much faster


- Kakashi's movement speed is faster since Hiruzen is an Old man, but Hiruzen has better Shunshin feats. Hiruzen's Shunshin kept pace with the 1st and 2nd Hokage. 
- Likewise Hiruzen has at least as good of reaction feats as Kakashi, given how he react to Jubito's attack. 

Speed is really not an issue.



> a lot more stamina to be able to use


- Both Kakashi and Hiruzen have a 3 in stamina



> Current Kakashi can make those four Shadow Clones and use Kamui and still have some stamina left.


- I agree, which is why Hiruzen who also has a 3 in stamina can do more than make those 4 Shadow Clones as well.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - The clones weren't on the battlefield before.
> - Your right that by the time Hiruzen says i'm on it, he's already forming the seals for a Katon Ninjutsu, but that is because he already created the Clones by that point, hence the I'm on it statement.



How do you know the clones weren't on the battlefield before? I assume you have proof of that? We don't see Hiruzen at all before that page, and the least amount of assumptions is that they were there, because we never saw Hiruzen make the Shadow Clones and move over to the correct positions. Since Mifune knew that the masks could do different elements, it makes sense that Hiruzen already had Shadow Clones dealing with the different elements before the all 5 at once. 




> - Why does it matter if it's better than Kakashi's or not?



Because neither of them have been able to successfully navigate that well in limited view.



> - Hiruzen was only hit because he didn't care to dodge, as his clones could tank attacks w/o dispersing and he was going to die anyway. The most important thing was to get of Shiki Fuujin. We very clearly see him accurately target the Edo Hokages within bringer of darkness perfectly.



That's BS. He even tried to block the attacks but could not. Twice. Eventually he was able to catch him, yeah.



> - Kakashi's movement speed is faster since Hiruzen is an Old man, but Hiruzen has better Shunshin feats. Hiruzen's Shunshin kept pace with the 1st and 2nd Hokage.



Nope, that argument has fallen short every single time people have brought it up. Keeping pace with teammates is never an indication of equal speed at all. Kakashi kept pace with a gated Gai, so I guess he is as fast as him in the gates. 



> - Likewise Hiruzen has at least as good of reaction feats as Kakashi, given how he react to Jubito's attack.



Only thing he reacted to was the rod, and he still got hit. We have nothing to compare the speed of that attack to. Hiruzen got blitzed, same as Hashi's Mokuton Clone and Tobirama. 



> Speed is really not an issue.



It is an issue, considering that Kakashi was able to even outplay Obito in close quarters with speed and Taijutsu. 



> - Both Kakashi and Hiruzen have a 3 in stamina



Nope, Kakashi's stamina and Chakra control feats have increased since the Third Databook's release. Hiruzen, on the other hand, has not outdated his stats except that his stamina recovers faster currently. In the Pain Arc, Kakashi used a Lightning Clone, Raiju, Raikiri 3 times, Doton and Kamui twice iirc. During the whole breaking the mask ordeal, Kakashi used Kamui 5 or 6 times and used Raikiri a few times. He used Raiden twice and a Raikiri kunai. Kurama may have restored his Chakra once when Naruto learned Bijuu Mode, but that was before all the Kamui usages and at least one Raiden and a few Raikiri.



> - I agree, which is why Hiruzen who also has a 3 in stamina can do more than make those 4 Shadow Clones as well.



Not until he has the feats for it. Kakashi's stamina has shown to handle it.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> How do you know the clones weren't on the battlefield before? I assume you have proof of that? We don't see Hiruzen at all before that page, and the least amount of assumptions is that they were there, because we never saw Hiruzen make the Shadow Clones and move over to the correct positions. Since Mifune knew that the masks could do different elements, it makes sense that Hiruzen already had Shadow Clones dealing with the different elements before the all 5 at once.


- How do you know the clones were on the battlefield before? I assume you have proof of that?
- The least amount of assumptions is he created the clones to counter the Jutsu; we've never seen Hiruzen fight where he constantly has clones on the battlefield, he only pulls them out when necessary for a certain maneuver. 
- If Buddha was only using certain elements, but not all 5, until this chapter, as per Mifune's comment, than why would Hiruzen have on the field exactly 4 KB, allowing him to counter all the heads at once. Hiruzen would have out 1 or 2 KB, not the perfect number to stop and all 5 elemental assault.



> Because neither of them have been able to successfully navigate that well in limited view.


- Hiruzen did against Bringer of Darkness



> That's BS. He even tried to block the attacks but could not. Twice. Eventually he was able to catch him, yeah.


- He made sure to block attacks that would have killed him instantly; attack aimed at his head
- He was not using Jutsu to block or avoid receiving any damage from these attacks tho, as he was focusing on Shiki Fuujin, which was already going to take his life
- Hiruzen point blank states that he was no longer going to bother with a Jutsu exchange [1] as he was aiming for Shiki Fuujin once he saw the Edos regeneration [2]
- Orochimaru even asks Hiruzen why he wasn't bothering to avoid attacks, to which Hiruzen responds their is n reason considering Shiki Fuujin will take his life anyway [1][2]
- The fact that he was able to know exactly what direction the attack was going from and block it properly so he received no significant damage is in-fact counter to your point.

Simply put Shiki Fuujin required Hiruzen's attention and for him to keep his hands clapped together, so he did not want to interrupt this process with casting Jutsu to defend himself anymore than he absolutely had to (attacks that would have ended him right away). So he took minor attacks that he otherwise wouldn't by putting up a minimal card to expidate the process of casting Shiki Fuujin. Hiruzen however very clearly showed that via sense of smell within pitch blackness he could tell the exact location of his enemies attacks and the exact type of attack; he also showed he could accurately target his enemies within the pitch blackness to the point where he was able to grab both of them on the exact same area of their collars [1]. 



> Nope, that argument has fallen short every single time people have brought it up. Keeping pace with teammates is never an indication of equal speed at all. Kakashi kept pace with a gated Gai, so I guess he is as fast as him in the gates.


- Keeping pace with teammates is sometimes an inaccurate judge of speed, as teammates time coordinated attack; Gai & Kakashi
- The Hokages were not coordinating an attack
- The Hokages were all rushing to the battlefield top speed, not waiting up for the others. This is exhibited by Minato's Shunshin outclassing the other Hokages and him arriving first.



> Only thing he reacted to was the rod, and he still got hit. We have nothing to compare the speed of that attack to. Hiruzen got blitzed, same as Hashi's Mokuton Clone and Tobirama.


- He got hit, but still managed to react and avoid a good portion of the attack
- KCM Naruto is shown having difficulty reacting to the Rod's expansion here [1][2] 
- Sasuke and Naruto barely have enough time to escape rod expansion by FTG here [1]
- Rod is able to expand in time to intercept Amaterasu here 
- etc...
We can therefore assume it's expansion very quick.



> It is an issue, considering that Kakashi was able to even outplay Obito in close quarters with speed and Taijutsu.


- He outplayed and Obito who couldn't use Kamui
- Hiruzen's Shunshin and reaction feats seem equally as impressive as that to me



> Nope, Kakashi's stamina and Chakra control feats have increased since the Third Databook's release. Hiruzen, on the other hand, has not outdated his stats except that his stamina recovers faster currently. In the Pain Arc, Kakashi used a Lightning Clone, Raiju, Raikiri 3 times, Doton and Kamui twice iirc. During the whole breaking the mask ordeal, Kakashi used Kamui 5 or 6 times and used Raikiri a few times. He used Raiden twice and a Raikiri kunai. Kurama may have restored his Chakra once when Naruto learned Bijuu Mode, but that was before all the Kamui usages and at least one Raiden and a few Raikiri.


- Kakashi has had no time to train to increase his stamina since the Pain Arc
- Kakashi's stamina may have increased slightly from in battle exp, but nothing major is going to come of that
- Kakashi's ridiculous stamina feats in the war are simply a product of power inflation; everyone in the war has for the most part greatly ignored their previously indicate stamina constraints. Hiruzen is subject to that same inflation.



> Not until he has the feats for it. Kakashi's stamina has shown to handle it.


- His feat is getting the same stamina score as Kakashi in the DB. We don't need more than that


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - How do you know the clones were on the battlefield before? I assume you have proof of that?
> 
> - The least amount of assumptions is he created the clones to counter the Jutsu; we've never seen Hiruzen fight where he constantly has clones on the battlefield, he only pulls them out when necessary for a certain maneuver.
> - If Buddha was only using certain elements, but not all 5, until this chapter, as per Mifune's comment, than why would Hiruzen have on the field exactly 4 KB, allowing him to counter all the heads at once. Hiruzen would have out 1 or 2 KB, not the perfect number to stop and all 5 elemental assault.



1: No, the least amount of assumptions is exactly as I said. Why? Because the only hand seal we see Hiruzen make is the Katon sign. There was never any indication of him making the Shadow Clones then, and so the simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions is that they were there prior to the Jutsu. 

2: The Shinsuusenju may have been using all 5 elements, but not at once. Mifune's statement said, "all at once". When the masks opened, Mifune stated that there was going to be all five. That's either an assumption on his part or he saw all five at some point, just not in conjunction with each other.

You need proof that Hiruzen made those clones right then and there, because it's less likely than him already having those out, based on the fact that what we saw was Hiruzen make a seal. Prior to that we did not see Hiruzen, so the assumption that he made them right then and there needs proof. Had we saw Hiruzen before that and with no clones, then you'd have a point.



> - Hiruzen did against Bringer of Darkness



Except he couldn't fully anticipate their moves. 



> - He made sure to block attacks that would have killed him instantly; attack aimed at his head
> - He was not using Jutsu to block or avoid receiving any damage from these attacks tho, as he was focusing on Shiki Fuujin, which was already going to take his life
> - Hiruzen point blank states that he was no longer going to bother with a Jutsu exchange [1] as he was aiming for Shiki Fuujin once he saw the Edos regeneration [2]



That says absolutely nothing about dodging. Jutsu exchange is totally different from dodging an attack. The fact is that he was forced to block because he could only sense to a certain degree. And it was not enough to fully avoid getting hit. 



> - Orochimaru even asks Hiruzen why he wasn't bothering to avoid attacks, to which Hiruzen responds their is n reason considering Shiki Fuujin will take his life anyway [1][2]
> - The fact that he was able to know exactly what direction the attack was going from and block it properly so he received no significant damage is in-fact counter to your point.



This is all after Hiruzen grabbed him. This says nothing about prior to. In fact, Hiruzen fought with Enma in order to give himself a clean opening to grab Orochimaru the first time. He could have tanked an attack and grabbed him, but that was not the case.



> Simply put Shiki Fuujin required Hiruzen's attention and for him to keep his hands clapped together, so he did not want to interrupt this process with casting Jutsu to defend himself anymore than he absolutely had to (attacks that would have ended him right away). So he took minor attacks that he otherwise wouldn't by putting up a minimal card to expidate the process of casting Shiki Fuujin. Hiruzen however very clearly showed that via sense of smell within pitch blackness he could tell the exact location of his enemies attacks and the exact type of attack; he also showed he could accurately target his enemies within the pitch blackness to the point where he was able to grab both of them on the exact same area of their collars [1].



Dodging does not involve moving hands in any way unless to build up extra momentum. Jiraiya showed us this when he built up Chakra for summoning Ma and Pa and going into Sage Mode. 

Hiruzen had to navigate carefully with his sense of smell in order to grab them. Him grabbing them in the same spot is absolutely irrelevant, as he basically grabbed them both the same way. 

What it really goes to show is how weak Hashirama and Tobirama were compared to their alive selves.



> - Keeping pace with teammates is sometimes an inaccurate judge of speed, as teammates time coordinated attack; Gai & Kakashi
> - The Hokages were not coordinating an attack
> - The Hokages were all rushing to the battlefield top speed, not waiting up for the others. This is exhibited by Minato's Shunshin outclassing the other Hokages and him arriving first.



No, it's NEVER an accurate judge of speed. Actually, they were coordinating, just not an attack at that point in time. They were planning to put up the barrier as soon as they got there, and Minato went on ahead to save the alliance and then put up the FTG tags to teleport Hiruzen and Tobirama. The rest of them stayed with each other.

Tobirama notes that his FTG is faster in the Viz iirc. Not his actual Shunshin. 

They obviously were not moving at top speed. Otherwise, Hashirama and Tobirama would have left Hiruzen in the dust. It took Hiruzen a full conversation's worth of time to cross a mountain range when Hashirama did the same thing much quicker, while outrunning Perfect Susano'o's destruction and moving roughly as fast as the Bijuu-Shuriken. Hashirama's clones also used Shunshin to get to all four sides of the barrier in the middle of his sentence. The rest of them used Hiraishin.



> - He got hit, but still managed to react and avoid a good portion of the attack
> - KCM Naruto is shown having difficulty reacting to the Rod's expansion here [1][2]



Um, no. The panel clearly shows Naruto reacting even before it expands. Sasuke reacted fine, Naruto reacted fine, Minato reacted fine. 



> - Sasuke and Naruto barely have enough time to escape rod expansion by FTG here [1]
> - Rod is able to expand in time to intercept Amaterasu here
> - etc...
> We can therefore assume it's expansion very quick.



Dude, Juubito had them grabbed by the face. Minato had enough time to grab them with Chakra Arms and then FTG away before it expanded. And even when they warped, it had hardly expanded much. 

Its expansion is fast, but it doesn't have the feats to say that Hiruzen's reaction time is amazing by any means.



> - He outplayed and Obito who couldn't use Kamui



Yeah, and neither could Kakashi.



> - Hiruzen's Shunshin and reaction feats seem equally as impressive as that to me



Except that they're not, because Hiruzen hasn't shown a Shunshin anywhere near that.



> - Kakashi has had no time to train to increase his stamina since the Pain Arc
> - Kakashi's stamina may have increased slightly from in battle exp, but nothing major is going to come of that
> - Kakashi's ridiculous stamina feats in the war are simply a product of power inflation; everyone in the war has for the most part greatly ignored their previously indicate stamina constraints. Hiruzen is subject to that same inflation.



So you're blaming PIS? That's a copout. Kakashi probably got into war time conditioning. Regardless of the reason, Kakashi's stamina has increased. The same cannot be said for Hiruzen magically just because he appeared in the arc. 



> - His feat is getting the same stamina score as Kakashi in the DB. We don't need more than that



The same stamina score as Kakashi pre-Pain Arc.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 31, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> 1: No, the least amount of assumptions is exactly as I said. Why? Because the only hand seal we see Hiruzen make is the Katon sign. There was never any indication of him making the Shadow Clones then, and so the simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions is that they were there prior to the Jutsu.


- Simplest assumption is that he used KB when it became necessary to counter Spiral's Jutsu
- Your view takes several assumptions:
         1. Something happened off panel to get Hiruzen to use KB
         2. Hiruzen just so happened to have created the exact number of KB necessary for the  
             situation that appeared after he created the KB



> The Shinsuusenju may have been using all 5 elements, but not at once. Mifune's statement said, "all at once". When the masks opened, Mifune stated that there was going to be all five. That's either an assumption on his part or he saw all five at some point, just not in conjunction with each other


- Or Mifune saw the elements forming in the mouths of the heads
- Even if Shin-Suusenju was using all 5 elements separately that would still not require 4 KB from Hiruzen



> You need proof that Hiruzen made those clones right then and there, because it's less likely than him already having those out, based on the fact that what we saw was Hiruzen make a seal. Prior to that we did not see Hiruzen, so the assumption that he made them right then and there needs proof. Had we saw Hiruzen before that and with no clones, then you'd have a point.


- It's the most logical assumption, rather than him just being extremely lucky to already have 4 KB out for some completely unrelated reason. That's enough for me, if it isn't for you we'll have to agree to disagree



> Except he couldn't fully anticipate their moves.


- Show me the move he did not anticipate



> That says absolutely nothing about dodging. Jutsu exchange is totally different from dodging an attack. The fact is that he was forced to block because he could only sense to a certain degree. And it was not enough to fully avoid getting hit.


- There was no reason to go so far as to avoid attacks; due to Shiki Fuujin.
- Taking tim to avoid attacks or cast Jutsu to block would have delayed Shiki Fuujin further.
- Blocking exact spots takes a great deal of precision.
- Grabbing both Tensei in the exact same spot on their collars takes a great deal of precision.
- Hiruzen isn't even fighting in total darkness against Kakashi; just avoiding eye contact
- Hiruzen only needs to avoid eye contact till he has a KB or Enma to act as his partner



> This is all after Hiruzen grabbed him. This says nothing about prior to. In fact, Hiruzen fought with Enma in order to give himself a clean opening to grab Orochimaru the first time. He could have tanked an attack and grabbed him, but that was not the case


- He needed to block attacks that would have outright killed him
- He didn't need to avoid attacks that would only cause scratches and delay Shiki Fuujin further



> Dodging does not involve moving hands in any way unless to build up extra momentum. Jiraiya showed us this when he built up Chakra for summoning Ma and Pa and going into Sage Mode.


- If Hiruzen were to use Shunshin this would probably interrupt the process
- Jiraiya is a different case as apparently he can cast simultaneous Jutsu by casting them w/ his feet
- Physically evading attacks from three different people in the Darkness was probably difficulty without casting Jutsu and breaking his focus on Shiki Fuujin. This that's not my point though; my point is that Hiruzen could have evade, block, and fought w/ Jutsu in the darkness. However Hiruzen could not be bother to go that far due to Shiki Fuujin prep.



> Hiruzen had to navigate carefully with his sense of smell in order to grab them. Him grabbing them in the same spot is absolutely irrelevant, as he basically grabbed them both the same way.


- How is it irrelevant that he manage to perfectly grab two Hokage-level opponents in the exact same spot



> What it really goes to show is how weak Hashirama and Tobirama were compared to their alive selves.


- They were much weaker, but were still Hokage-level [1]



> No, it's NEVER an accurate judge of speed. Actually, they were coordinating, just not an attack at that point in time. They were planning to put up the barrier as soon as they got there, and Minato went on ahead to save the alliance and then put up the FTG tags to teleport Hiruzen and Tobirama. The rest of them stayed with each other.


- Whether on of the Hokages arrived quicker than the other 2 would not effect coordinating the barrier; Minato early arrival proves this
- Tobirama himself indicates that the Hokage's arrival time is an indicate of their speed; when he states that Minato's Shunshin is faster than his



> Tobirama notes that his FTG is faster in the Viz iirc. Not his actual Shunshin.


- According to the Naruto-Forums translators it's Shunshin no Jutsu not FTG
- According to the Hiragana used in the Raw it's Shunshin no Jutsu; 
      1. しゅんしん (X)
      2. しゅ = Shu ん= n し= Shi ん= n
I know Hiragana from taking Japanese so I could translate it this much; but here is a Wiki page with the Hiragana alphabet and translations (). If Viz translated it as Hiraishin than they made a mistake. However if the translated it as Body Flicker, that is english translations of Shunshin. So I'd have to see Viz translation, but ether way it's very clearly Shunshin that Tobirama says.



> They obviously were not moving at top speed. Otherwise, Hashirama and Tobirama would have left Hiruzen in the dust. It took Hiruzen a full conversation's worth of time to cross a mountain range when Hashirama did the same thing much quicker, while outrunning Perfect Susano'o's destruction and moving roughly as fast as the Bijuu-Shuriken.


- Your talking movement speed, we're talking Shunshin speed



> Hashirama's clones also used Shunshin to get to all four sides of the barrier in the middle of his sentence.


- When?
- If they did than Hiruzen could do the same w/ his Shunshin



> Um, no. The panel clearly shows Naruto reacting even before it expands. Sasuke reacted fine, Naruto reacted fine, Minato reacted fine.


- I said they had difficulty, not that they couldn't react
- The fact that such top notch speedsters had difficulty, demonstrates the speed of the black element is quite high



> Dude, Juubito had them grabbed by the face. Minato had enough time to grab them with Chakra Arms and then FTG away before it expanded. And even when they warped, it had hardly expanded much.


- Sure, but they used FTG to escape
- If it was some slow moving attack they would have been able to get out of the way w/o having to resort to the fastest Jutsu in the manga



> Its expansion is fast, but it doesn't have the feats to say that Hiruzen's reaction time is amazing by any means.


- It's expansion is fast, yet Hiruzen evading said expansion is not a good reaction feat; huh!?
- It's speed feats are more than enough to make it a high level reaction feat.



> Yeah, and neither could Kakashi.


- Huh?



> Except that they're not, because Hiruzen hasn't shown a Shunshin anywhere near that.


- Well if your going to ignore feats, than we'll just have to agree to disagree



> So you're blaming PIS? That's a copout. Kakashi probably got into war time conditioning. Regardless of the reason, Kakashi's stamina has increased. The same cannot be said for Hiruzen magically just because he appeared in the arc.


- Powerscaling is a very real thing that happens in manga/fiction
- Kakashi is not the only character whose stamina supply is allowed to stretch much further in the war; are you really saying they all magically increased their stamina
- Kakashi had no time to randomly war time condition himself and if he could increase his stamina so greatly in a matter of days, why wouldn't he have done so before
- Your also basically arguing plot increased Kakashi's stamina; i'm just arguing Powerscaling, while your arguing Plot Kai allowed Kakashi to magically increase his supply greatly
- Kakashi may have indeed increased his supply, but I very much doubt we'll see Kakashi's stamina get anymore than a .5 increase in the next DB.



> The same stamina score as Kakashi pre-Pain Arc.


- So now Kakashi magically increased his stamina by the Pain Arc?
- Kakashi even in the Pain arc shows that someone w/ a 3 in stamina can do more than the combo Hiruzen showed this chapter against Shin SuuSenju.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Simplest assumption is that he used KB when it became necessary to counter Spiral's Jutsu
> - Your view takes several assumptions:
> 1. Something happened off panel to get Hiruzen to use KB
> 2. Hiruzen just so happened to have created the exact number of KB necessary for the situation that appeared after he created the KB



Either way Hiruzen created those off panel. It's more reasonable to assume he did them completely rather than off panel while the focus is on his faction. Reason being because the focus was not on him creating KBs. So it's not certain WHEN he created them. But it IS an assumption to say that he created them right then and there. Because you reflected the proof question, I'll assume you don't have proof that he created them right then. My stance does not support a specific time, because it's far more open. 



> - Or Mifune saw the elements forming in the mouths of the heads
> - Even if Shin-Suusenju was using all 5 elements separately that would still not require 4 KB from Hiruzen



No one said it required 4KBs prior. However the area of affect of the Shinsuusenju's attacks could goad Hiruzen to create those KBs in order to protect more people. And that could have been done at any time.



> - It's the most logical assumption, rather than him just being extremely lucky to already have 4 KB out for some completely unrelated reason. That's enough for me, if it isn't for you we'll have to agree to disagree



It's not being extremely lucky. It's protecting multiple sections of the Alliance at once with the other Hokages bar Tsunade being busy elsewhere. 



> - Show me the move he did not anticipate



The first time he got hit. He blocked the first but then still ended up taking damage elsewhere.



> - There was no reason to go so far as to avoid attacks; due to Shiki Fuujin.
> - Taking tim to avoid attacks or cast Jutsu to block would have delayed Shiki Fuujin further.



That's false, as Shiki Fujin was not ready so he had to stay alive till then. Taking time to side step is not going to delay Shiki Fujin lol. 



> - Blocking exact spots takes a great deal of precision.



Precision that Hiruzen didn't have. See above.



> - Grabbing both Tensei in the exact same spot on their collars takes a great deal of precision.



Not really. He just grabbed the same way. Overhand lol.



> - Hiruzen isn't even fighting in total darkness against Kakashi; just avoiding eye contact
> 
> - Hiruzen only needs to avoid eye contact till he has a KB or Enma to act as his partner



Genjutsu isn't an issue in this fight. Hiruzen won't really fall for any of it. But Kakashi's Sharingan does give an edge with being to decipher Hiruzen's movements very precisely. 



> - He needed to block attacks that would have outright killed him
> - He didn't need to avoid attacks that would only cause scratches and delay Shiki Fuujin further



Hiruzen didn't know what was going to kill him, because he could only sniff out where someone was coming from. 



> - If Hiruzen were to use Shunshin this would probably interrupt the process
> - Jiraiya is a different case as apparently he can cast simultaneous Jutsu by casting them w/ his feet
> - Physically evading attacks from three different people in the Darkness was probably difficulty without casting Jutsu and breaking his focus on Shiki Fuujin. This that's not my point though; my point is that Hiruzen could have evade, block, and fought w/ Jutsu in the darkness. However Hiruzen could not be bother to go that far due to Shiki Fuujin prep.



Who said Hiruzen had to Shunshin? Back step, side step, general avoid. These do not require Shunshin are effective. 



> - They were much weaker, but were still Hokage-level [1]



Barely if they were. We have no idea of these ANBU's knowledge base of how strong Hashirama and Tobirama really were in their prime and how powerful Minato was. 



> - Whether on of the Hokages arrived quicker than the other 2 would not effect coordinating the barrier; Minato early arrival proves this



Wrong, because Minato had to set up the FTG tags around the Juubi so that they could create the barrier in the first place.


*Spoiler*: __ 









It is very clear that this was all planned in advanced that Minato would run ahead to set up the tags to be able to warp everyone bar Hashirama in place. And of course the speed at which Minato did this is what was praised by Tobirama.

The major thing you have to understand about the barrier is that it's only able to come up as fast as the slowest person arriving. So there's literally no point for Hashirama and Tobirama to run ahead when Hiruzen arriving last would still make the barrier wait that long. 



> - Tobirama himself indicates that the Hokage's arrival time is an indicate of their speed; when he states that Minato's Shunshin is faster than his



What he indicates is that Minato's Shunshin speed is faster than his own. That's it. Any further interpretation is not necessarily true. Because Minato went ahead, Tobirama did note his Shunshin speed. That doesn't mean that Tobirama was going at full speed, but merely making an observation.



> - According to the Naruto-Forums translators it's Shunshin no Jutsu not FTG
> - According to the Hiragana used in the Raw it's Shunshin no Jutsu;
> 1. しゅんしん (X)
> 2. しゅ = Shu ん= n し= Shi ん= n
> I know Hiragana from taking Japanese so I could translate it this much; but here is a Wiki page with the Hiragana alphabet and translations (). If Viz translated it as Hiraishin than they made a mistake. However if the translated it as Body Flicker, that is english translations of Shunshin. So I'd have to see Viz translation, but ether way it's very clearly Shunshin that Tobirama says.



Got it. Thanks.



> - Your talking movement speed, we're talking Shunshin speed


 
There is a heavy correlation between movement and Shunshin speed. The higher the body speed, the better Shunshin potential. You can't get better than perfect Chakra control. So once someone has perfect Chakra control, there is only so much one can enhance their movement speed in Shunshin. People like Hiruzen, Kakashi, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Naruto etc have perfect Chakra control and so their Shunshin enhancement is now completely based on their movement speed.



> - When?
> - If they did than Hiruzen could do the same w/ his Shunshin




*Spoiler*: __ 








So literally in seconds, he was able to get around this square distance.

Keep in mind, these are not the original. Madara notes that Hashirama doesn't necessarily put a lot of power in his clones. Hiruzen cannot be given these feats because he simply has nothing akin to it. 



> - I said they had difficulty, not that they couldn't react
> - The fact that such top notch speedsters had difficulty, demonstrates the speed of the black element is quite high



There was no difficulty. He reacted just as Obito tried to extend it. And Sasuke was able to activate Susano'o to block it. Sasuke wasn't even in that spot to begin with. He moved AND blocked it. It's clear that they both reacted much better than Hiruzen did. 



> - Sure, but they used FTG to escape
> - If it was some slow moving attack they would have been able to get out of the way w/o having to resort to the fastest Jutsu in the manga



Yes, they used FTG to escape because they were grabbed by Juubito. How the hell else do you expect them to escape when they're being held by the head? Minato had enough time to react and grab them with Chakra arms and then use Hiraishin. It wasn't just a one and done Hiraishin. 



> - It's expansion is fast, yet Hiruzen evading said expansion is not a good reaction feat; huh!?
> - It's speed feats are more than enough to make it a high level reaction feat.



At best it shows Hiruzen as above average reactions. But as we know, Kakashi is above that level of reactions.



> - Huh?



Kakashi couldn't use Kamui either...



> - Well if your going to ignore feats, than we'll just have to agree to disagree



I'm not ignoring feats. I'm discounting your interpretation of the facts.



> - Powerscaling is a very real thing that happens in manga/fiction



It's not reliable though in a debate. Not by a long shot.



> - Kakashi is not the only character whose stamina supply is allowed to stretch much further in the war; are you really saying they all magically increased their stamina



Who said that Kakashi is the only character that increased his stamina? I certainly didn't. 



> - Kakashi had no time to randomly war time condition himself and if he could increase his stamina so greatly in a matter of days, why wouldn't he have done so before



How do you know that exactly? There was a lot of time devoted to the deliberation of the Five Kages post Obito's war declaration. Kakashi had time then. And also he can use a small scale clone training method. He can't do it on the same scale as Naruto, but he can certainly do it. Clones make time seem like a non-factor where he could have been dealing with something and having five or six clones training.



> - Your also basically arguing plot increased Kakashi's stamina; i'm just arguing Powerscaling, while your arguing Plot Kai allowed Kakashi to magically increase his supply greatly
> - Kakashi may have indeed increased his supply, but I very much doubt we'll see Kakashi's stamina get anymore than a .5 increase in the next DB.



Yes, but I'm also rationalizing and reconciling the plot of how Kakashi's stamina increase. You're just going lol plot. There's a major difference. Lol plot is not a good reason to say Hiruzen gets the buff as well.

I would argue that Kakashi should get a 4 in Stamina based on feats. But I would be fine with a .5 increase as well.  



> - So now Kakashi magically increased his stamina by the Pain Arc?



Never said that. (btw message is too long, so for that last point I'll say I fundamentally disagree)


----------



## Turrin (Jan 31, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Either way Hiruzen created those off panel. It's more reasonable to assume he did them completely rather than off panel while the focus is on his faction. Reason being because the focus was not on him creating KBs. So it's not certain WHEN he created them. But it IS an assumption to say that he created them right then and there. Because you reflected the proof question, I'll assume you don't have proof that he created them right then. My stance does not support a specific time, because it's far more open.
> No one said it required 4KBs prior. However the area of affect of the Shinsuusenju's attacks could goad Hiruzen to create those KBs in order to protect more people. And that could have been done at any time.


- It's more reasonable to assume that he created the exact number of KB necessary, to counter the Jutsu, rather than being lucky
- Like I said if you want to believe Hiruzen just got super lucky, that's your prerogative, but we'll agree to disagree



> It's not being extremely lucky. It's protecting multiple sections of the Alliance at once with the other Hokages bar Tsunade being busy elsewhere.


- There were 5 elemental blasts
- Hiruzen just so happened to create the exact number of KB necessary to counter all 5 blasts; for a totally unrelated reason. I'm not buying it.



> The first time he got hit. He blocked the first but then still ended up taking damage elsewhere.


- He made a move to block the attack, therefore he anticipated the attack
- The attack causing him minor scratches doesn't change that



> That's false, as Shiki Fujin was not ready so he had to stay alive till then. Taking time to side step is not going to delay Shiki Fujin lol.


- Stay alive; Yes
- Worry about taking minor scratches; No



> Precision that Hiruzen didn't have. See above.


- He determined the direction and angle the attack was coming from
- He determined the part of the body that the attack was aimed for and blocked
- He only received Minor scratches
- That demonstrates a great deal of precision



> Not really. He just grabbed the same way. Overhand lol.


- Put yourself in a pitch black room
- You go and try to grab an objects that is several feet away from you in the exact same spot; twice
- Than talk to me about the level of precision that takes



> Genjutsu isn't an issue in this fight. Hiruzen won't really fall for any of it. But Kakashi's Sharingan does give an edge with being to decipher Hiruzen's movements very precisely.


- Sorry, I thought you were arguing Genjutsu would have an impact on this fight as that's what Richard Lewis and I were discussing when you jumped in on the issue about sense of smell.
- Sharingan Prediction would be triumphed by Enma's various tricks [expansion, bushin, enma's, transformation] the same way Kyuubi-Chakra claws beat out Sharingan prediction in the VOTE fight.



> Hiruzen didn't know what was going to kill him, because he could only sniff out where someone was coming from.


- He knew the type of attacks, which is why he was able to block them so precisely



> Who said Hiruzen had to Shunshin? Back step, side step, general avoid. These do not require Shunshin are effective.


- I said Hiruzen had to Shunshin
- My point has always been that Hiruzen could fight in the Bringer of Darkness w/ Jutsu
- My point never was that his ability to avoid attacks wasn't hampered by the Genjutsu to a certain extent



> Barely if they were. We have no idea of these ANBU's knowledge base of how strong Hashirama and Tobirama really were in their prime and how powerful Minato was.


- They only appear so lack luster due to Part II Power-Scaling 
- Even if they are only barely qualified for Hokage level, that still makes the two of them very strong



> Wrong, because Minato had to set up the FTG tags around the Juubi so that they could create the barrier in the first place.
> It is very clear that this was all planned in advanced that Minato would run ahead to set up the tags to be able to warp everyone bar Hashirama in place. And of course the speed at which Minato did this is what was praised by Tobirama.


- If Hashirama or Tobirama arrived quicker than Hiruzen, that wouldn't effect Minato's ability to set up the FTG seals
- Tobirama praised Minato's Shunshin being faster than his, hence Minato arriving first; which again indicate their arrival times are a good measurement of speed.
- In-fact Hiruzen, Hashirama, and Tobirama, beat Sasuke & Juugo to the battlefield; once again indicating they were all rushing there full force not waiting up for stragglers. Also demonstrates Hiruzen's Shunshin is significantly faster than Sasuke's.



> The major thing you have to understand about the barrier is that it's only able to come up as fast as the slowest person arriving. So there's literally no point for Hashirama and Tobirama to run ahead when Hiruzen arriving last would still make the barrier wait that long.


- Being their to help aid the alliance until the Barrier came up isn't a compelling reason to haul ass?
- Sorry, not personally buying it.



> What he indicates is that Minato's Shunshin speed is faster than his own. That's it. Any further interpretation is not necessarily true. Because Minato went ahead, Tobirama did note his Shunshin speed. That doesn't mean that Tobirama was going at full speed, but merely making an observation.


- Greatest threat the world has ever faced is staring down the alliance, i'm sure Tobirama was taking his sweet time waiting for Hiruzen
- Sorry, not personally buying it



> There is a heavy correlation between movement and Shunshin speed. The higher the body speed, the better Shunshin potential. You can't get better than perfect Chakra control. So once someone has perfect Chakra control, there is only so much one can enhance their movement speed in Shunshin. People like Hiruzen, Kakashi, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Naruto etc have perfect Chakra control and so their Shunshin enhancement is now completely based on their movement speed


What you have to understand is how Shunshin works in the manga is extremely ill defined. According to Shunshin's DB entry the more chakra you put into a Shunshin the faster your Shunshin will be. However than we have Minato whose Shunshin is faster than chakra beasts like the Senju brothers, thus muddling the DB's explanation. Additionally we have Sasuke whose Shunshin is extremely hyped in the DB and the Manga allowing him better speed feats than Shinobi who have a similar movement speed, and likely also possess mastery of Shunshin; Deidara & Kakashi for example. 

So quite honestly I think Kishi has gotten rid of any internal logic as far as explaining how Shunshin works, and all that matters now is how good Kishi wants a character to be at the Jutsu itself. In Hiruzen's case he's an absolute beast at Ninjutsu, so it makes sense that his Shunshin skill is top notch.




> So literally in seconds, he was able to get around this square distance.
> 
> Keep in mind, these are not the original. Madara notes that Hashirama doesn't necessarily put a lot of power in his clones.


- He did not cover that entire square distance. You see the clones and shinobi still running to the 4 corners in the very next page ( Itachi can instantly form V3.)



> Hiruzen cannot be given these feats because he simply has nothing akin to it.


- Except demonstrating the exact same Shunshin speed as the real Hashirama, but you know other than that 



> There was no difficulty. He reacted just as Obito tried to extend it. And Sasuke was able to activate Susano'o to block it. Sasuke wasn't even in that spot to begin with. He moved AND blocked it. It's clear that they both reacted much better than Hiruzen did.


- No difficulty yet they are using some of their fastest Jutsu to defend it in time
- Sorry,  not  personally buying it


----------



## Turrin (Jan 31, 2014)

> Yes, they used FTG to escape because they were grabbed by Juubito. How the hell else do you expect them to escape when they're being held by the head? Minato had enough time to react and grab them with Chakra arms and then use Hiraishin. It wasn't just a one and done Hiraishin.


- Hit Obito W/ a Jutsu to get him to release his grib; there's literally tons of ways
- Chakra Arms are very fast and FTG is instant
- Again your arguing the Black Element isn't fast, because the heroes used insanely fast moves to evade it in time, which makes no sense to me.



> At best it shows Hiruzen as above average reactions. But as we know, Kakashi is above that level of reactions.


-  You show me the Shinobi that is only slightly above average and inferior to Kakashi reaction wise, who would react to that Black Element
- Baring in mind that black element expanded in time to intercept an Amaterasu and had only been evaded using some of the fastest Jutsu/abilities in the manga



> Kakashi couldn't use Kamui either...


- Okay and...your point is



> I'm not ignoring feats. I'm discounting your interpretation of the facts.


- Hiruzen keeps up with Tobirama and Hashirama in Shunshin speed
- Master Sephiroth, "he's nowhere near Tobirama and Hashirama in Shunshin speed"
- Your ignoring feats (or at least it feels that way)



> It's not reliable though in a debate. Not by a long shot.


- This isn't a debate it's a discussion
- How is it not a fair point to bring up power-scaling when we know it's had a real outcome on the manga cannon?
- How is it not fair to bring up power-scaling, while it's fair for you to bring up PNJ magically making Kakashi's stamina much higher?



> How do you know that exactly? There was a lot of time devoted to the deliberation of the Five Kages post Obito's war declaration. Kakashi had time then. And also he can use a small scale clone training method. He can't do it on the same scale as Naruto, but he can certainly do it. Clones make time seem like a non-factor where he could have been dealing with something and having five or six clones training.


-  Where was it stated that A-lot of time passed?
- Even if a few days passed, it makes no sense that if Kakashi could raise his stamina in that time, it makes no sense that he didn't do it before
- Kishi would have let us known if Kakashi underwent such intensive clone training



> Yes, but I'm also rationalizing and reconciling the plot of how Kakashi's stamina increase. You're just going lol plot. There's a major difference. Lol plot is not a good reason to say Hiruzen gets the buff as well.


- I could reconcile it if I wanted to; Kakashi eating Soldier pills, healed, or kyuubi-chakra'd off panel, but realistically it is just for plot purposes



> I would argue that Kakashi should get a 4 in Stamina based on feats. But I would be fine with a .5 increase as well.


- He's not getting a 4, unless he increases his stamina even more before the end of the war
- Than he'd have a 3.5 vs Hiruzen's 3, which is not a major difference in stamina



> Never said that. (btw message is too long, so for that last point I'll say I fundamentally disagree)


- Fundamentally disagree with what?


----------



## IchLiebe (Feb 2, 2014)

AND THE WINNER IS....TURRIN.

Alot of people seem to underestimate Hiruzen due to his showing in part 1, but what people don't understand is that Kishi made most of that fight off panel and it lasted for over an hour. 

Fighting 3 high kage level opponents for over an hour goes a long way in the stamina department imo.

I think they are about even though, it could go either way and heavily depends on stipulations of the match although I think Hiruzen would be the better overall.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 2, 2014)

Alright, so I'm gonna try to keep this to one post. That is why some of your quotes are shortened.



Turrin said:


> - It's more reasonable to assume...



I disagree. And no it's not super lucky. It's just the fact that he was helping out already. It was stated that he was the only one able to launch a counter.



> - There were 5 elemental blasts
> - Hiruzen just so happened to create the exact number of KB necessary to counter all 5 blasts; for a totally unrelated reason. I'm not buying it.



It's not unrelated. They all were implied to have fired one time at least. 



> - He made a move to block the attack, therefore he anticipated the attack
> - The attack causing him minor scratches doesn't change that



He anticipated AN attack. The minor injuries tell us that he wasn't anticipating exactly, which was the point.



> - Stay alive; Yes
> - Worry about taking minor scratches; No



He could still sidestep.



> - He determined the direction and angle the attack was coming from
> - He determined the part of the body that the attack was aimed for and blocked
> - He only received Minor scratches
> - That demonstrates a great deal of precision



If he could block with his arms, the attack wasn't lethal to begin with. He only determined a part of where it was aimed for.



> - Put yourself in a pitch black room
> - You go and try to grab an objects that is several feet away from you in the exact same spot; twice
> - Than talk to me about the level of precision that takes



It's not difficult. As long as you know exactly how to grab something, you can do it consistently, regardless of sight.



> - Sharingan Prediction would be triumphed by Enma's various tricks [expansion, bushin, enma's, transformation] the same way Kyuubi-Chakra claws beat out Sharingan prediction in the VOTE fight.



The comparison between a fresh 3 Tomoe Sasuke and MS Kakashi with vastly superior movement speed and reactions is not a good one. Enma's tricks are not going to be more unorthodox than Bee's Kenjutsu, which is what you would need at the very minimum to catch Kakashi's Sharingan precog off guard.



> - He knew the type of attacks, which is why he was able to block them so precisely



Except he got hit elsewhere.



> - My point has always been that Hiruzen could fight in the Bringer of Darkness w/ Jutsu
> - My point never was that his ability to avoid attacks wasn't hampered by the Genjutsu to a certain extent



Kay.



> - They only appear so lack luster due to Part II Power-Scaling
> - Even if they are only barely qualified for Hokage level, that still makes the two of them very strong



Well yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that the difference is staggering. Hashirama casually broke out of Edo Tensei's hold when Orochimaru's own binding was more powerful.



> - If Hashirama or Tobirama arrived quicker than Hiruzen, that wouldn't effect Minato's ability to set up the FTG seals



Correct, and leaving Hiruzen behind wouldn't delay the barrier either, because the last person had to be present to set it up.



> - Tobirama praised Minato's Shunshin being faster than his, hence Minato arriving first; which again indicate their arrival times are a good measurement of speed.



Not necessarily as explained. Minato's Shunshin was noted by Tobirama as being faster. That's it. 



> - In-fact Hiruzen, Hashirama, and Tobirama, beat Sasuke & Juugo to the battlefield...



Sasuke and Juugo also started later. The Hokages left first. And are we going to give Juugo Sasuke's Shunshin feats now because they arrived together? And then say that Karin and Suigetsu are as fast as Orochimaru? I think not.



> - Being their to help aid the alliance until the Barrier came up isn't a compelling reason to haul ass?
> - Sorry, not personally buying it.



As I explained, there are so many instances of "time is of the essence" where they were not moving at full speed. The Retrieval Arc is a prime example. Chouji = Neji = Lee = Kiba = base Naruto? The Kazekage Rescue Arc as well. Sakura = Base Naruto = Kakashi in speed? Tenten = Lee = Gai = Neji in speed? Nope. 



> - Greatest threat the world has ever faced is staring down the alliance, i'm sure Tobirama was taking his sweet time waiting for Hiruzen
> - Sorry, not personally buying it



Already explained why waiting for Hiruzen is not an issue.



> What you have to understand is how Shunshin works in the manga is extremely ill defined....



There's only so much Chakra you can put into a Jutsu before it doesn't work. Any more Chakra than the max and it either becomes an entirely new technique (i.e Rasengan) or just doesn't work. 



> So quite honestly I think Kishi has gotten rid of any internal logic as far as explaining how Shunshin works...



I don't think so, it's just missing some info. Although you are correct in that Hiruzen's Shunshin will be pretty good because his Chakra control is perfect. But it doesn't compare to someone with also perfect Chakra control and much better body speed. 



> - He did not cover that entire square distance. You see the clones and shinobi still running to the 4 corners in the very next page ([1])



Nope. He did cover that distance and he stopped by each section of the Shinobi Alliance here. [1] But he was running to the actual barrier itself to open it in the link you provided. If anything, that shows that he ran even further in that short distance as he moved a good distance outside the barrier on each side, which makes a longer square distance.



> - Except demonstrating the exact same Shunshin speed as the real Hashirama, but you know other than that



There are far too many variables that can change the outcome of the "feat". 



> - No difficulty yet they are using some of their fastest Jutsu to defend it in time
> - Sorry,  not  personally buying it



You don't have to buy it, but it's the truth. There wasn't any difficulty reacting to it.



Turrin said:


> - Hit Obito W/ a Jutsu to get him to release his grib; there's literally tons of ways
> - Chakra Arms are very fast and FTG is instant
> - Again your arguing the Black Element isn't fast, because the heroes used insanely fast moves to evade it in time, which makes no sense to me.



Nope, not arguing it isn't fast. It's just not faster than Kakashi's reaction timing (the rod). 



> -  You show me the Shinobi that is only slightly above average and inferior to Kakashi reaction wise, who would react to that Black Element



Hiruzen. 



> - Baring in mind that black element expanded in time to intercept an Amaterasu and had only been evaded using some of the fastest Jutsu/abilities in the manga



It wasn't the rod though. 



> - Okay and...your point is



You said that Kakashi beat Obito without Kamui. Well the reverse is also true. So I'm not sure what your point was.



> - Hiruzen keeps up with Tobirama and Hashirama in Shunshin speed
> - Master Sephiroth, "he's nowhere near Tobirama and Hashirama in Shunshin speed"
> - Your ignoring feats (or at least it feels that way)



Once again, you're taking this at face value. Were they really going at top speed? I doubt it. Teammates always keep up with each other unless there's a specific reason not to (i.e Minato setting up the FTG tags). 



> - This isn't a debate it's a discussion
> - How is it not a fair point to bring up power-scaling when we know it's had a real outcome on the manga cannon?
> - How is it not fair to bring up power-scaling, while it's fair for you to bring up PNJ magically making Kakashi's stamina much higher?



It's not magical if there's a logical explanation?



> -  Where was it stated that A-lot of time passed?
> - Even if a few days passed, it makes no sense that if Kakashi could raise his stamina in that time, it makes no sense that he didn't do it before
> - Kishi would have let us known if Kakashi underwent such intensive clone training



A normal person can condition themselves in a week. A ninja who can solidly make 5-6 clones can do it in a day and a half at most. Kishi doesn't always let us know when someone is training and learning new things. 



> - I could reconcile it if I wanted to; Kakashi eating Soldier pills, healed, or kyuubi-chakra'd off panel, but realistically it is just for plot purposes



Soldier pills could be acceptable, if we saw anything like that on screen. I doubt he ate them while in the battle itself against Obito. After the Seven Swordsmen fight most likely.



> - He's not getting a 4, unless he increases his stamina even more before the end of the war
> - Than he'd have a 3.5 vs Hiruzen's 3, which is not a major difference in stamina



Not that it matters, because 3.5 vs 3 is still a stamina advantage on Kakashi's end.



> - Fundamentally disagree with what?



The fact that someone with a 3 could do more than what Hiruzen showed. If that is indeed true though, that's more of a credit to Kakashi's stamina increase. Because just 2 Kamui after half Chakra killed him, which puts his limit at roughly 4 in the Pain Arc to die. He did 5 or 6 and collapsed, not even nearing death.


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## Trojan (Feb 2, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - According to the Naruto-Forums translators it's Shunshin no Jutsu not FTG
> - According to the Hiragana used in the Raw it's Shunshin no Jutsu;
> 1. しゅんしん (Link removed)
> 2. しゅ = Shu ん= n し= Shi ん= n
> ...



Viz translated that as teleporting 


Tobirama referred to FTG as a shunshin sometimes. [1][2][3]

Others.
[1][2][3][4][]


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## Turrin (Feb 2, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> It's not unrelated. They all were implied to have fired one time at least. .


- 4 KB is not necessary to counter if they are firing one at a time
- I get what your saying that Hiruzen may have used KB to support the alliance prior to the 5 elemental blasts, but why create 4 KB than; why not 1-3 KB or even 5 KB. Again the likelihood that he just so happens to create exactly 4 KB prior to the 5 Elemental blasts is extremely lower.



> He anticipated AN attack. The minor injuries tell us that he wasn't anticipating exactly, which was the point.


- No it tells us that the guard he choose was only sufficient enough to prevent major injuries; not minor ones
- You can't say he didn't anticipate the attack, when he knew exactly when the attack was used, the angle it was coming from, and the area of his body it was targeting. That literally is anticipating the attack.



> He could still sidestep.


- I don't see why your arguing this point, when I've never said Hiruzen was so good in the darkness where he could casually sidestep attacks  potentially coming from three sources: Edo Hokages & Orochimaru



> If he could block with his arms, the attack wasn't lethal to begin with. He only determined a part of where it was aimed for.


- That doens't make sense
- Hiruzen has armor on his arms which can deflect certain attacks that would typically kill Hiruzen; For example Armor blocks Shuriken, but if Hiruzen took a Shuriken to the face he'd be dead.



> It's not difficult. As long as you know exactly how to grab something, you can do it consistently, regardless of sight.


-  Seriously how is grabbing two individuals (who are both Hokage-level & capable of disrupting said attempt) in pitch black darkness w/ the speed Hiruzen accomplishes it and in the exact same place, not demonstrate a certain degree of precision. It's really stretching my suspension of disbelief that you could really believe that no level of precision is displayed in that instance; like it really is.



> The comparison between a fresh 3 Tomoe Sasuke and MS Kakashi with vastly superior movement speed and reactions is not a good one. Enma's tricks are not going to be more unorthodox than Bee's Kenjutsu, which is what you would need at the very minimum to catch Kakashi's Sharingan precog off guard.


- Kakashi is better at CQC, but his Sharingan Precog is no different from 3 Tome Sasuke
- Sasuke specifically says he can't anticipate something like that w/ the 3 Tome (Here)
- So while you can bring up Kakashi's superior CQC abilities, Sharingan Precog is still going to be countered by Enma exactly as a I said.



> Except he got hit elsewhere.


- He took minor scratches
- To me it's really reaching to say minor scratches means Hiruzen's has zero precision in the darkness



> Well yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that the difference is staggering. Hashirama casually broke out of Edo Tensei's hold when Orochimaru's own binding was more powerful.


- Of course the difference is staggering
- But that doesn't change the factt that Edo Tobirama and Edo Hashirama were still Hokage level



> Correct, and leaving Hiruzen behind wouldn't delay the barrier either, because the last person had to be present to set it up.


- Okay, so there was no reason for Hashirama and Tobirama to not use their top speed Shunshin, just like I said



> Not necessarily as explained. Minato's Shunshin was noted by Tobirama as being faster. That's it.


- Yes and why was that noted; because Minato beat Tobirama there



> Sasuke and Juugo also started later. .


- No they didn't



> The Hokages left first. And are we going to give Juugo Sasuke's Shunshin feats now because they arrived together? And then say that Karin and Suigetsu are as fast as Orochimaru? I think not


- Why can't Juugo's Shunshin be as good as Sasuke's?
- Why can't Suigetsu and Karin's Shunshin be as good as Orochimaru's?
- Though In the case of Orochimaru he actually did need to wait for Karin to heal the Gokage; as Orochimaru has no medical ability. 



> As I explained, there are so many instances of "time is of the essence" where they were not moving at full speed. The Retrieval Arc is a prime example. Chouji = Neji = Lee = Kiba = base Naruto? The Kazekage Rescue Arc as well. Sakura = Base Naruto = Kakashi in speed? Tenten = Lee = Gai = Neji in speed? Nope.


- I have no clue what your talking about unless you give me panels



> Already explained why waiting for Hiruzen is not an issue.


- It is an issue, as they had no reason to do so and in-fact did not wait for other slower members of their team (Sasuke & Juugo), and in-fact Tobirama indicated that the speed at which they arrived to the battlefield as a good means of measuring the speed of ones Shunshin with his comment to Minato. We must ignore all of this to accept your interpretation and i'm not willing to do so.



> There's only so much Chakra you can put into a Jutsu before it doesn't work. Any more Chakra than the max and it either becomes an entirely new technique (i.e Rasengan) or just doesn't work.


- Please show me the panel that says their is a limit to how much chakra you can put into Shunshin or any Jutsu for that matter



> I don't think so, it's just missing some info. Although you are correct in that Hiruzen's Shunshin will be pretty good because his Chakra control is perfect. But it doesn't compare to someone with also perfect Chakra control and much better body speed.


- If your saying Tobirama and Hashirama have perfect chakra control + they have more chakra than Minato, their Shunshin should be superior to Minato's. Yet why is Minato's in-fact superior; I agree their is info missing, and that missing info most likely explains how Hiruzen's Shunshin can be equivalent to Hashi and Tobirama's, and how Minato's can be superior. It's as simple as that.



> Nope. He did cover that distance and he stopped by each section of the Shinobi Alliance here. Here But he was running to the actual barrier itself to open it in the link you provided. If anything, that shows that he ran even further in that short distance as he moved a good distance outside the barrier on each side, which makes a longer square distance.


- I don't know how you can say that from the panels themselves, but ether way than Hiruzen can also do it than as well.



> There are far too many variables that can change the outcome of the "feat".


- Their are not variables. Both hauled ass to the battlefield and arrived at the same time with their Shunshin; therefore their Shunshin speed is equal. Why exactly are you so resistant to the idea that Hiruzen's Shunshin can be equivalent to Hashirama's, that your going so far out of your way to ignore the very clear display of equality on their parts?



> You don't have to buy it, but it's the truth. There wasn't any difficulty reacting to it.


- Wasn't any difficulty, yet they had to use their fastest Jutsu to avoid/defend it
- That does not sound like the truth to me



> Nope, not arguing it isn't fast. It's just not faster than Kakashi's reaction timing (the rod).


- Kakashi quite honestly doesn't have any feats as good as that
- Even still I never said Hiruzen's reactions > Kakashi, I said that Hiruzen's like Kakashi's are also very good



> Hiruzen


- This is circular reasoning



> It wasn't the rod though.


- There is no "rod", it's all the black element expanding. The expansion of the element their is the same speed as when it expanded at Hiruzen in rod form.



> You said that Kakashi beat Obito without Kamui. Well the reverse is also true. So I'm not sure what your point was.


- My point was your using Kakashi beating Obito as a speed/CQC feat, but it's not that impressive when Obito can't use Kamui, as all the difficulty that people had with hitting, reacting to, etc... Obito had to do with Kamui.



> Once again, you're taking this at face value. Were they really going at top speed? I doubt it. Teammates always keep up with each other unless there's a specific reason not to (i.e Minato setting up the FTG tags).


-The specific reasons was to get to the battlefield as quickly as possible to support the alliance
- Same reason Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen left Sasuke and Juugo behind



> It's not magical if there's a logical explanation?


- Kakashi being able to raise his chakra dramatically inbetween the Pain Arc and War Arc is not logical tho



> A normal person can condition themselves in a week. A ninja who can solidly make 5-6 clones can do it in a day and a half at most. Kishi doesn't always let us know when someone is training and learning new things.


- A Ninja can't dramatically increase their stamina in a week 



> Soldier pills could be acceptable, if we saw anything like that on screen. I doubt he ate them while in the battle itself against Obito. After the Seven Swordsmen fight most likely.


- We never saw anything like Kakashi training to increase his stamina Pre-War, on screen ether, yet your asking me to accept it's true
- We actually did see Medics healing people and Kyuubi chakra restoring Kakashi



> Not that it matters, because 3.5 vs 3 is still a stamina advantage on Kakashi's end.


- Okay, and I never said Kakashi couldn't have more. I just said their wouldn't be a massive difference.



> The fact that someone with a 3 could do more than what Hiruzen showed.


- How do you doubt it when Kakashi himself proves it in the Pain Arc



> . If that is indeed true though, that's more of a credit to Kakashi's stamina increase. Because just 2 Kamui after half Chakra killed him, which puts his limit at roughly 4 in the Pain Arc to die. He did 5 or 6 and collapsed, not even nearing death.


- Honestly I think this had more to do with Kakashi becoming more adjusted to Sharingan, rather than a stamina boost. After all the whole reason Kakashi's MS drains him so much is due him not being as accustom to the Sharingan as natural born Uchiha. Itachi w/ a 2.5 in stamina while sick and dying used MS 5 times on-top of other Jutsu. It only makes sense that Kakashi w/ a 3 (once MS stopped draining him extra from being a non Uchiha) would be able to do 5-6 MS Jutsu on-top of other Jutsu.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 3, 2014)

Two very similar fighters here. One with broader ninjutsu arsenal and better summon, other with superior physical stats and more specialized ninjutsu arsenal. Intelligence is likely roughly even. Going with the one significantly faster, with better stamina and magical eye that helps greatly against ninjutsu-oriented enemy.

MS-less Kakashi beats Old Hiruzen with fair amount of difficulty. He might be able to beat ET Hiruzen if given sealing tools but that's debatable due stamina being the main reason Kakashi wins against normal Sandaime. Unrestricted Kakashi is too much for both. Not sure about Prime, note enough info. Kakashi is going to eclipse Sarutobi if he stays active for another 10 years imo.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - 4 KB is not necessary to counter if they are firing one at a time
> - I get what your saying that Hiruzen may have used KB to support the alliance prior to the 5 elemental blasts, but why create 4 KB than; why not 1-3 KB or even 5 KB...



The alliance was spread out in such a way that they covered a large area to be protected. That is what I mean. The more KBs Hiruzen created, the more area he could protect at a time.



> - No it tells us that the guard he choose was only sufficient enough to prevent major injuries; not minor ones
> - You can't say he didn't anticipate the attack, when he knew exactly when the attack was used, the angle it was coming from, and the area of his body it was targeting. That literally is anticipating the attack.



I'm not saying he didn't anticipate it. What I am saying is that he didn't know exactly what was coming. Only an attack in general in that general direction.



> - I don't see why your arguing this point, when I've never said Hiruzen was so good in the darkness where he could casually sidestep attacks  potentially coming from three sources: Edo Hokages & Orochimaru



Okay.



> - That doens't make sense
> - Hiruzen has armor on his arms which can deflect certain attacks that would typically kill Hiruzen; For example Armor blocks Shuriken, but if Hiruzen took a Shuriken to the face he'd be dead.



Well his armor didn't prevent him from taking damage.



> -  Seriously how is grabbing two individuals (who are both Hokage-level & capable of disrupting said attempt) in pitch black darkness w/ the speed Hiruzen accomplishes it...



It does show some degree of precision. But what I am saying is that it's not impressive for someone at the level of a Hokage tbh.



> - Kakashi is better at CQC, but his Sharingan Precog is no different from 3 Tome Sasuke
> - Sasuke specifically says he can't anticipate something like that w/ the 3 Tome (15)
> - So while you can bring up Kakashi's superior CQC abilities, Sharingan Precog is still going to be countered by Enma exactly as a I said.



There is a huge difference in precog from person to person. For instance, Sasuke could not fully anticipate Bee's unorthodox Kenjutsu, meanwhile edo Itachi saw through all of his attacks and dodged/blocked accordingly. It's the difference of MS Sasuke not being able to follow A's V2 Raiton Armor movement, but EMS Sasuke being able to track Juubito after some adjustments.

Kakashi's reactions>>>>VOTE Sasuke's. Not only is he vastly superior in speed (thus is used to higher speeds), but he has MS as well. Which does seem to indicate a higher level of Sharingan precog.



> - He took minor scratches
> - To me it's really reaching to say minor scratches means Hiruzen's has zero precision in the darkness



Never said he has zero precision in the dark.



> - Of course the difference is staggering
> - But that doesn't change the factt that Edo Tobirama and Edo Hashirama were still Hokage level



Eh.....by whose standards though? The only real good thing about them was their Ninjutsu. Everything else was sub-par for any Kage level.



> - Okay, so there was no reason for Hashirama and Tobirama to not use their top speed Shunshin, just like I said



No, there was no reason to use their top speed Shunshin. Once again, the barrier was only as relevant as the last person arriving. 



> - Yes and why was that noted; because Minato beat Tobirama there



Not necessarily. Minato went ahead and Tobirama saw his Shunshin speed. It doesn't mean he was going his fastest, but noted Minato's Shunshin to be faster than anything he can produce.



> - No they didn't



Uh, yes they did. The Hokages went off right away while Taka was just standing there.



> - Why can't Juugo's Shunshin be as good as Sasuke's?
> - Why can't Suigetsu and Karin's Shunshin be as good as Orochimaru's?
> - Though In the case of Orochimaru he actually did need to wait for Karin to heal the Gokage; as Orochimaru has no medical ability.



So, are you claiming that Juugo's Shunshin = Sasuke's Shunshin? I would just call this a misrepresentation of the facts. Sasuke brought Juugo for CS Susano'o. And Orochimaru brough Karin and Suigetsu for helping the Kages. There was a reason to stay with them, even though it didn't necessarily matter. Why? Because even if Sasuke arrived first, he wouldn't be able to use CS Susano'o until Juugo arrived. Same thing with the barrier.



> - I have no clue what your talking about unless you give me panels



The team that was sent to bring Sasuke back. They traveled all together at roughly the same speed. But time was of the essence. The same thing goes for Team 7 where they went to Suna and then to the Akatsuki hideout. Same thing with Team Gai. 



> - It is an issue, as they had no reason to do so and in-fact did not wait for other slower members of their team (Sasuke & Juugo)...



It's not an issue, because Hiruzen was required for the barrier. It doesn't matter when Hashirama and Tobirama arrived, unless they were behind Hiruzen. Let me give you an analogy that should make my point resoundingly clear. Let's say you are making a box out of wood. You have six people with one piece of wood each and they all start in a line about a hundred feet from you. You can't start assembling the box until you have every single piece of wood. The first guy makes it to you in a second. The next four make it to you in 5, but the last guy lags behind and takes him 15 seconds. 

So in that case, you couldn't build your box until 15 seconds in. Second scenario, same set up. The first three people arrive at you in a second. However, the final three end up lagging behind and take 15 seconds. Regardless of how many people lagged behind, you still couldn't assemble the box until 15 seconds. 

That leads me to the point. Hashirama and Tobirama could have left Hiruzen in the dust. But they still couldn't make that barrier until Hiruzen arrived. Regardless of how many people arrived with Hiruzen, it would have taken the exact same amount of time to make the barrier, assuming Minato went ahead and set up the FTG tags. That's where Minato played his part.



> - Please show me the panel that says their is a limit to how much chakra you can put into Shunshin or any Jutsu for that matter



Kakashi's explanation about how Chakra control works in Chapter 18 starting here: 15 And no, this isn't just endemic to tree climbing. Kakashi stated that this was the principle of mastering most Jutsu.



> - If your saying Tobirama and Hashirama have perfect chakra control + they have more chakra than Minato, their Shunshin should be superior to Minato's...



Nope, Minato's body speed > Tobiramas. So even if their Chakra controls are perfect, Minato's Shunshin is faster.



> - I don't know how you can say that from the panels themselves, but ether way than Hiruzen can also do it than as well.



Hashirama states that he is going to go to all four sides of the barrier. Then he stops in front of the Shinobi Alliance and then runs with them straight to where he opens the barrier on all four sides.



> - Their are not variables. Both hauled ass to the battlefield and arrived at the same time with their Shunshin; therefore their Shunshin speed is equal...



As I've said, just hauling ass doesn't make it their top speed. I think I've made my point quite clear though.



> - Wasn't any difficulty, yet they had to use their fastest Jutsu to avoid/defend it
> - That does not sound like the truth to me



Why would Sasuke use anything less than Susano'o to block something that strong? It even put a hole through the Susano'o hand. Reacting was not the problem. 



> - Kakashi quite honestly doesn't have any feats as good as that
> ...



iirc he had some good reaction feats against the Jinchuriki and against Itachi. Also here he reacted and moved in tandem with KM Minato: Link removed



> - This is circular reasoning



It was a joke XD.



> - There is no "rod", it's all the black element expanding...


 
Yes, but there are different ways of manipulating the black element. But either way, the real speed of Juubito was in his blitzing Shunshin.



> - My point was your using Kakashi beating Obito as a speed/CQC feat, but it's not that impressive when Obito can't use Kamui...



Even so Obito's reactions were good enough to fight Gai, Kakashi and KM Naruto. Even if he used Kamui to aid him, it's still pretty impressive that he was able to even react and not get completely owned by the three of them coming at him at once.



> -The specific reasons was to get to the battlefield as quickly as possible to support the alliance
> - Same reason Hashirama, Tobirama, and Hiruzen left Sasuke and Juugo behind



Sasuke and Juugo were not vital to the barrier. The first priority was to get that barrier up to have something keeping the Juubi in check. Just to support the alliance is not that strong of a reasoning, considering they didn't follow far behind Minato anyway. Minato had to be the first one to arrive so that he could set up the tags to warp everyone except Hashi, who could just Shunshin his way around the barrier.



> - Kakashi being able to raise his chakra dramatically inbetween the Pain Arc and War Arc is not logical tho
> 
> - A Ninja can't dramatically increase their stamina in a week



Not sure why you're ignoring the clone training. 



> - We never saw anything like Kakashi training to increase his stamina Pre-War, on screen ether, yet your asking me to accept it's true
> - We actually did see Medics healing people and Kyuubi chakra restoring Kakashi



Kakashi was completely off panel pre-war in many cases. Not during the fight against Obito. Kurama restored Kakashi at certain points in the fight. But during the breaking of the mask part, Kakashi used Kamui more times in a row while being featured on panel than he could do in the Pain Arc.



> - Okay, and I never said Kakashi couldn't have more. I just said their wouldn't be a massive difference.



K.



> - How do you doubt it when Kakashi himself proves it in the Pain Arc



Well, that's subjective. It depends on how far perfect Chakra control can carry a 3 in stamina.



> - Honestly I think this had more to do with Kakashi becoming more adjusted to Sharingan, rather than a stamina boost...



Maybe. I would say it's a combination of mastering his MS and a bit of stamina increase.


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## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Honestly I think this had more to do with Kakashi becoming more adjusted to Sharingan, rather than a stamina boost. After all the whole reason Kakashi's MS drains him so much is due him not being as accustom to the Sharingan as natural born Uchiha. Itachi w/ a 2.5 in stamina while sick and dying used MS 5 times on-top of other Jutsu. It only makes sense that Kakashi w/ a 3 (once MS stopped draining him extra from being a non Uchiha) would be able to do 5-6 MS Jutsu on-top of other Jutsu.



More adjusted over the course of a few days?  Seriously?  Also, just prior to the war we see a completely fresh Kakashi go up against Sasuke, and one Kamui had him staggering!  

It's time to face the facts!  Kakashi has only been able to use Kamui so much in the war, because he has had support to cover for him.  In a 1v1 fight he only uses it as a last ditch resort, because he knows it's a double edged sword.

This Kamui spam or Kamui GG stuff is nothing but fanfiction!


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The alliance was spread out in such a way that they covered a large area to be protected. That is what I mean. The more KBs Hiruzen created, the more area he could protect at a time.


- Than why not create 5-6 KB, instead of 4 KB. Again the fact that it's precisely the amount needed to combat all the heads using an elemental blast at the same time, makes the simplest assumption to me, that he create the KB to counter that specific attack. I suggest we agree to disagree 



> I'm not saying he didn't anticipate it. What I am saying is that he didn't know exactly what was coming. Only an attack in general in that general direction.


- He knew what was coming as he knew the size of the attack and that he could survive it w/ blocking via his armor



> Well his armor didn't prevent him from taking damage.


-Taking damage was not the subject of discussion; being killed was
- You said anything he blocked w/ his arms couldn't have killed him; that's not true



> It does show some degree of precision. But what I am saying is that it's not impressive for someone at the level of a Hokage tbh.


- Dude it's not like everyone who is Hokage/Kage level is going to be able to do that; Hiruzen was able to do it because he has insane sense of smell abilities like the Inzuka



> There is a huge difference in precog from person to person. For instance, Sasuke could not fully anticipate Bee's unorthodox Kenjutsu, meanwhile edo Itachi saw through all of his attacks and dodged/blocked accordingly. It's the difference of MS Sasuke not being able to follow A's V2 Raiton Armor movement, but EMS Sasuke being able to track Juubito after some adjustments.
> 
> Kakashi's reactions>>>>VOTE Sasuke's. Not only is he vastly superior in speed (thus is used to higher speeds), but he has MS as well. Which does seem to indicate a higher level of Sharingan precog.


- None of your examples have to do w/ Precog, except EMS/MS Sasuke, but that is due to whatever is going on with Sasuke's Choku Tome, which Kishi hasn't bothered to explain yet
- Sasuke's Three Tome Pre-cog is the same as Kakashi's Pre-cog



> Never said he has zero precision in the dark.


- What are you arguing than?



> Eh.....by whose standards though? The only real good thing about them was their Ninjutsu. Everything else was sub-par for any Kage level.


- By the Anbu who act as personal body guards to the Hokages standards, which should be very accurate
- Again they are lack lust due to power-scaling and not getting much panel time
- Genjutsu was very also good and I don't know why you call everything else subpar



> No, there was no reason to use their top speed Shunshin. Once again, the barrier was only as relevant as the last person arriving.


- We just covered that Hashriama and Tobirama could leave Hiruzen behind and it wouldn't effect  the rate at which they could put up the barrier 
- We just covered the fact that Tobirama and Hashirama had a good reason to get their is as soon as they possibly could to help the alliance against the 10-tails
- Simply put Hashirama and Tobirama showing up early would have been good as they could help w/ other things besides the barrier, until Hiruzen showed up. They aren't going to simply take their sweat time.



> Not necessarily. Minato went ahead and Tobirama saw his Shunshin speed. It doesn't mean he was going his fastest, but noted Minato's Shunshin to be faster than anything he can produce.


-Very simply logic tells us he noted this because Minato beat him there



> Uh, yes they did. The Hokages went off right away while Taka was just standing there.


- Panels, because I know this didn't happen



> So, are you claiming that Juugo's Shunshin = Sasuke's Shunshin? I would just call this a misrepresentation of the facts.


- Yes, because their is no reason why Juugo's Shunshin can't be that good
- Juugo has Senjutsu Chakra he can empowered his Shunshin with



> Sasuke brought Juugo for CS Susano'o. And Orochimaru brough Karin and Suigetsu for helping the Kages. There was a reason to stay with them, even though it didn't necessarily matter. Why? Because even if Sasuke arrived first, he wouldn't be able to use CS Susano'o until Juugo arrived. Same thing with the barrier.


- Because Sasuke immediately used CS once they arrived?
- Or did Sasuke never use Cs for the entire battle, until Naruto realized the Obito after becoming Juubi Jin couldn't be hurt by anything but Senjutsu?
- No Sasuke did not wait for Juugo due to CS,
- It's very simple Minato > Hashirama/Tobirama/Hiruzen > Sasuke/Juugo in Shunshin speed, which makes sense.



> The team that was sent to bring Sasuke back. They traveled all together at roughly the same speed. But time was of the essence. The same thing goes for Team 7 where they went to Suna and then to the Akatsuki hideout. Same thing with Team Gai.


- They weren't all using Shunshin 
- And yes they are all stuck together; the operative word being all. In the Hokages case they left those who were slower behind; Minato left Hashirama, Hiruzen, and Tobirama behind, and those 3 left Sasuke and Juugo behind. In Rescue Sasuke Arc they specifically made a team formation when they moved to defend against another team (Sound Ninja), they weren't rushing as fast as they could to back up other allies, they had no allies waiting for them and had to keep together as if one rushed ahead he would simply be caught by the other teams traps and 1v4'd to death. With Suna they weren't even rushing to the battlefield they were rushing to go meet w/ suna higher ups to get more information on what went down; all members were necessary for this endevor; Sakura was needed to heal Kankuro and Kakashi to play the role of diplomat, etc... Pretty clear what the difference was in those 2 scenario's from what we have in the Hokages Shunshin to the battlefield scenario.



> It's not an issue, because Hiruzen was required for the barrier. It doesn't matter when Hashirama and Tobirama arrived, unless they were behind Hiruzen. Let me give you an analogy that should make my point resoundingly clear. Let's say you are making a box out of wood. You have six people with one piece of wood each and they all start in a line about a hundred feet from you. You can't start assembling the box until you have every single piece of wood. The first guy makes it to you in a second. The next four make it to you in 5, but the last guy lags behind and takes him 15 seconds.


- Let me give you an analogy. Their is a giant fucking demon getting ready to massacre your entire family. 3 Guys are coming, it takes 3 to seal the demon, but they are strong as fuck and can help defend the demon's attacks before sealing it. Now would you say gee it doesn't matter if 2 of them wait for the third, because they can't seal it to the 3 gets here anyway, while the demon massacres part of your family while your waiting? Or would you say gee those 2 faster guys could have at least run ahead and helped defend the demon's attacks, until the 3 got here
?


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2014)

> Kakashi's explanation about how Chakra control works in Chapter 18 starting here: This  And no, this isn't just endemic to tree climbing. Kakashi stated that this was the principle of mastering most Jutsu.


- No where in their does it say their is chakra limit



> Nope, Minato's body speed > Tobiramas. So even if their Chakra controls are perfect, Minato's Shunshin is faster.


- Nowhere are we told regular movement speed matters with Shunshin
- Nowhere are we told Minato's body speed is superior to Tobirama's



> Hashirama states that he is going to go to all four sides of the barrier. Then he stops in front of the Shinobi Alliance and then runs with them straight to where he opens the barrier on all four sides.


- Yeah after he runs with them. He could have Shunshind to any group of alliance people and led them to one of the four barriers.



> As I've said, just hauling ass doesn't make it their top speed. I think I've made my point quite clear though.


- I understand your point, I just don't think it's correct whatsoever. Tobirama and Hashirama had no reason not to use their max speed and had every reason to do so.



> Why would Sasuke use anything less than Susano'o to block something that strong? It even put a hole through the Susano'o hand. Reacting was not the problem.


- Reacting was the problem, do you honestly think if Naruto had a-lot of time to react he wouldn't have been able to defend himself?
- If Sasuke thought it was so strong and had so much time to react, why not defend w/ a higher stage of Susano'o?



> iirc he had some good reaction feats against the Jinchuriki and against Itachi. Also here he reacted and moved in tandem with KM Minato: This


- Still not as good as reacting to Jubito's attack
- Minato clearly was quicker on the draw there and Minato was very low on KCM Chakra at that point I believe



> Yes, but there are different ways of manipulating the black element. But either way, the real speed of Juubito was in his blitzing Shunshin.


- Different ways, but doesn't change the expansion speed; in-fact against Amaterasu it had to expand more than against Hiruzen, so if anything it would take slightly longer



> Even so Obito's reactions were good enough to fight Gai, Kakashi and KM Naruto. Even if he used Kamui to aid him, it's still pretty impressive that he was able to even react and not get completely owned by the three of them coming at him at once.


- His reacts are good and Kakashi's reactions are good. Never said otherwise



> Sasuke and Juugo were not vital to the barrier. The first priority was to get that barrier up to have something keeping the Juubi in check. Just to support the alliance is not that strong of a reasoning, considering they didn't follow far behind Minato anyway. Minato had to be the first one to arrive so that he could set up the tags to warp everyone except Hashi, who could just Shunshin his way around the barrier.


- Showing up earlier to defend is a very good reason. Those few seconds behind Minato could have been very important, depending on what attack the Juubi/Madara used
- Plus there is no reason for them to wait for Hiruzen anyway, as getting their before Hiruzen doesn't some how stop the barrier from coming up



> Not sure why you're ignoring the clone training.


- Kakashi's can't clone train, as he'd get exhausted too quickly. 
- Additionally Clone training has to do w/ acquiring mental information, not physical stamina.



> Kakashi was completely off panel pre-war in many cases. Not during the fight against Obito. Kurama restored Kakashi at certain points in the fight. But during the breaking of the mask part, Kakashi used Kamui more times in a row while being featured on panel than he could do in the Pain Arc.


- There are tons of panels in that battle, which don't feature Kakashi, and it only takes one panel to take a soldier pill
- Again there is zero difference from saying hey he took a pill off panel to, hey he did some off panel training



> Well, that's subjective. It depends on how far perfect Chakra control can carry a 3 in stamina.


- Subjective to what. Kakashi showed more chakra demanding shit w/ his 3 against Pain than Hiruzen did in this match. What's more Edos do not have any more than their max chakra in life, Edo Hiruzen was brought back weaker than Old hiruzen, though, so Edo Hiruzen's max chakra would be even less than in life. If the combo Edo Hiruzen used on Buddha absorb his max chakra, than he'd be out of chakra and unable to fight, even Edos can be reduced to too little chakra to continue to fight if they use up their max before the Edo regen can restore their stamina. So Sarutobi could not have used up all his chakra their



> Maybe. I would say it's a combination of mastering his MS and a bit of stamina increase.


- It's probably just all MS/Sharingan (+ power-scaling). I mean look at the increase in what Kakashi was able to do between Start of Part I and DB III (Pain Arc), yet according to Kishi his Stamina didn't increase at all; it's a 3 in Part I and a 3 in the Pain arc. The only explanation we are given is he got better w/ Sharingan. Which kind of makes sense I mean only now has Kakashi gotten a better stamina performance than sick & dying Itachi who has a 2.5, and it's not even that much better than Itachi's performance


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Than why not create 5-6 KB, instead of 4 KB...



Stamina issues. Even though an edo has unlimited Chakra, their inherent limits are still present. And as you can see here, four KBs covered the area pretty well. Five just happened to be a solid number for covering the AoE. 



> - He knew what was coming as he knew the size of the attack and that he could survive it w/ blocking via his armor
> 
> -Taking damage was not the subject of discussion; being killed was
> - You said anything he blocked w/ his arms couldn't have killed him; that's not true



Yes, if he could block with his arms and only take minor injuries, it obviously wouldn't kill him unless it hit his heart or throat. Either way, we'll just have to disagree because we're getting nowhere.



> - Dude it's not like everyone who is Hokage/Kage level is going to be able to do that; Hiruzen was able to do it because he has insane sense of smell abilities like the Inzuka



What's your point, exactly? His sense of smell is good enough to figure out their location and then it's just a matter of grabbing the same way. 



> - None of your examples have to do w/ Precog, except EMS/MS Sasuke, but that is due to whatever is going on with Sasuke's Choku Tome, which Kishi hasn't bothered to explain yet
> - Sasuke's Three Tome Pre-cog is the same as Kakashi's Pre-cog



Everything has to do with precog. Seeing their movements and picturing what is going to happen next is solely under that ability. Kakashi's reactions are way better than VOTE Sasuke, and so he will be able to decipher movements a lot easier. Make sense? 



> - What are you arguing than?



Not sure what it really has relevance to in this battle, so I dunno.



> - By the Anbu who act as personal body guards to the Hokages standards, which should be very accurate
> - Again they are lack lust due to power-scaling and not getting much panel time
> - Genjutsu was very also good and I don't know why you call everything else subpar



The Genjutsu was good, but the Genjutsu that was shown just after that arc was much more impressive.

And the ANBU statements are unreliable because we know next to nothing about their experiences.



> - We just covered that Hashriama and Tobirama could leave Hiruzen behind and it wouldn't effect  the rate at which they could put up the barrier
> - We just covered the fact that Tobirama and Hashirama had a good reason to get their is as soon as they possibly could to help the alliance against the 10-tails
> - Simply put Hashirama and Tobirama showing up early would have been good as they could help w/ other things besides the barrier, until Hiruzen showed up. They aren't going to simply take their sweat time.



There is literally no point when they only arrived right behind Minato. A half-minute is not going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things so long as Minato can defend one attack. And he did. 

I'm not saying they weren't moving fast, but no indication they were moving at top speed bar Minato at the very end of that trip.



> -Very simply logic tells us he noted this because Minato beat him there



Do you have to run with Usain Bolt to admit that he's faster? All you have to do is watch his speed once. Likewise, when Minato had to go ahead to set up the tags, Tobirama got a chance to see his real speed. There's a specific reason why Tobirama decides to comment then and not during the trip. They traveled all the way from Konoha and just then Tobirama decides to praise his Shunshin. Logic tells us that he noted that particular Shunshin to get to the battlefield, which indicates that Minato was with them prior to then.



> - Panels, because I know this didn't happen



This 

Taka is literally standing there while they Hiraishin'd to the Hokage heads. Do you not understand what this already implies? They didn't even travel together. The last page Hashirama says, "Let's Go!" meaning they're already ready to start. Nothing of the sorts from Taka. They were just standing there while we got that epic compilation from the Hokages.



> - Yes, because their is no reason why Juugo's Shunshin can't be that good
> - Juugo has Senjutsu Chakra he can empowered his Shunshin with



Juugo doesn't have the feats for it. Arriving together is not a feat because there isn't a single instance in the manga where hauling ass due to lack of time means going at top speed.



> - Because Sasuke immediately used CS once they arrived?
> - Or did Sasuke never use Cs for the entire battle, until Naruto realized the Obito after becoming Juubi Jin couldn't be hurt by anything but Senjutsu?
> - No Sasuke did not wait for Juugo due to CS,
> - It's very simple Minato > Hashirama/Tobirama/Hiruzen > Sasuke/Juugo in Shunshin speed, which makes sense.



Yet when Sasuke was going to use CS Susano'o, he didn't even need to communicate with Juugo. They knew what they had to do already. Which means he had planned it, but didn't necessarily need to use it right away. But maybe he did have to. Sasuke didn't know that. 



> - They weren't all using Shunshin



Yet time was of the essence.



> - And yes they are all stuck together; the operative word being all....



In actuality, there is very little difference. They knew they had to get to Sasuke before the Sound 4 crossed the border of Konoha. And they knew that Gaara was going to die if they didn't rush. More examples:

-Itachi wanted to stop Edo Tensei as quick as possible, but he was not moving at full speed either.
-KM Naruto moved to the other battlefields but stayed with Gaara after defeating Muu. 
-KM Naruto stayed with Bee in many instances. We already know that KM Naruto>Bee in speed.
-Kurenai, Gai and Kakashi all reached Neji at the same time to stop him at the Chuunin exams. 



> - Let me give you an analogy. Their is a giant fucking demon getting ready to massacre your entire family...



Your analogy falls apart when you realize that the first guy who was supposed to come first anyway is fully capable of stalling said demon until the other three arrive, which isn't more than a short exchange of dialogue away.



Turrin said:


> - No where in their does it say their is chakra limit



Too much and the wood cracks. Too little and nothing happens at all. The point of that was that too much Chakra makes it so that it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. And this tree climbing method was the basis for Shunshin, as we saw Sasuke apply it to perform his first Shunshin against Haku.



> - Nowhere are we told regular movement speed matters with Shunshin
> - Nowhere are we told Minato's body speed is superior to Tobirama's



-It's very basic. Better body speed + equal Chakra enhancement = better Shunshin.
-Feats.



> - Yeah after he runs with them. He could have Shunshind to any group of alliance people and led them to one of the four barriers.



No, before. The page where he stopped in front of the alliance is the page before he leads the alliance straight to the barrier. Hashirama used Shunshin to all four sides of the barrier with his Mokuton clones, but he didn't stop at the barrier. He stopped in front of the Shinobi Alliance which were right in front of the barrier, surrounding it.



> - I understand your point, I just don't think it's correct whatsoever. Tobirama and Hashirama had no reason not to use their max speed and had every reason to do so.



They had no reason to use their max speed unless Tobirama could outdo Minato. And we know that is not the case.



> - Reacting was the problem, do you honestly think if Naruto had a-lot of time to react he wouldn't have been able to defend himself?
> - If Sasuke thought it was so strong and had so much time to react, why not defend w/ a higher stage of Susano'o?



Who said Naruto couldn't defend? Sasuke stepped in before it reached him. Susano'o is disposable obviously. As long as it stopped the attack, that was what counted.



> - Still not as good as reacting to Jubito's attack
> - Minato clearly was quicker on the draw there and Minato was very low on KCM Chakra at that point I believe



How was Minato faster? He started closer to Black Zetsu and they ended up in basically the same distance apart from him. He reacted at the same time as Minato, which is ridiculous considering Minato has reacted to A's full speed.



> - Different ways, but doesn't change the expansion speed; in-fact against Amaterasu it had to expand more than against Hiruzen, so if anything it would take slightly longer



Actually, the expansion feats are completely different. When Juubito became complete and conscious, his expansion became faster. It even blitzed BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. 



> - His reacts are good and Kakashi's reactions are good. Never said otherwise



K.



> - Showing up earlier to defend is a very good reason. Those few seconds behind Minato could have been very important, depending on what attack the Juubi/Madara used
> - Plus there is no reason for them to wait for Hiruzen anyway, as getting their before Hiruzen doesn't some how stop the barrier from coming up



Except Tobirama and Minato are sensors, so they could sense what the Juubi was going to do. One big ball of Chakra being sensed can be logically deduced and Minato could do that by himself.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 3, 2014)

> - Kakashi's can't clone train, as he'd get exhausted too quickly.
> - Additionally Clone training has to do w/ acquiring mental information, not physical stamina.



Wrong on both accounts. Kakashi can't clone train on the same scale as Naruto. He can clone train with at least 4-6 clones. And clone training multiplies experience. Spirit energy is completely tied in with that. Increasing muscle mass would increase the number of cells which would also increase body energy.



> - There are tons of panels in that battle, which don't feature Kakashi, and it only takes one panel to take a soldier pill
> - Again there is zero difference from saying hey he took a pill off panel to, hey he did some off panel training



There is a huge difference. Kakashi completely off panel could be doing anything. Kakashi being featured but only off panel for a little bit is limited. There is no reasonable assumption that can be made to say that he took a soldier pill during that fight. There's no proof behind it, but there is a logical assumption as to how Kakashi increased his stamina pool while off panel.



> - Subjective to what....



It's subjective based on the feats a 3 in stamina has given us. Who has run out of Chakra quicker with a 3 and perfect Chakra control? Hiruzen, mind you, did not run out of Chakra when he died, so that doesn't count.



> - It's probably just all MS/Sharingan (+ power-scaling). I mean look at the increase in what Kakashi was able to do between Start of Part I and DB III (Pain Arc), yet according to Kishi his Stamina didn't increase at all; it's a 3 in Part I and a 3 in the Pain arc. The only explanation we are given is he got better w/ Sharingan. Which kind of makes sense I mean only now has Kakashi gotten a better stamina performance than sick & dying Itachi who has a 2.5, and it's not even that much better than Itachi's performance



That's a matter of better Chakra control from Part I to Part II. Increasing the amount of Raikiris in a single day is indicative that Kakashi's Chakra control was not perfect in Part I since his stamina rank didn't increase. It's also possible that he went from barely made 3 to an almost 3.5 but not quite there. Remember DB ratings are general tiers, not exact values.


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Stamina issues. Even though an edo has unlimited Chakra, their inherent limits are still present. And as you can see here, four KBs covered the area pretty well. Five just happened to be a solid number for covering the AoE.


- I really doubt Hiruzen couldn't have made 1 more clone
- And if not, than again it comes down to believing in extreme luck, as your saying the exact number of KB necessary happens to be the exact number of max KB Hiruzen can create



> Yes, if he could block with his arms and only take minor injuries, it obviously wouldn't kill him unless it hit his heart or throat. Either way, we'll just have to disagree because we're getting nowhere.


- It was aimed at his face though



> What's your point, exactly? His sense of smell is good enough to figure out their location and then it's just a matter of grabbing the same way.


- His sense of smell was good enough where he could fight with a level of precision within the darkness that we can't expect anyone who does not have a sensory power to be able to accomplish.



> Everything has to do with precog. Seeing their movements and picturing what is going to happen next is solely under that ability. Kakashi's reactions are way better than VOTE Sasuke, and so he will be able to decipher movements a lot easier. Make sense?


- No it doesn't make sense, as Sasuke said Precog won't work on abilities like Enma
- Basically according to Sasuke Sharingan won't even show a precognition of such an attack, as it typically does
- Kakashi may be able to react to said attack w/ his own reflexes, that's fine, but Sharingan won't be helping him



> Not sure what it really has relevance to in this battle, so I dunno.


- I have no clue man, It was your point lol



> The Genjutsu was good, but the Genjutsu that was shown just after that arc was much more impressive.


- If the standard is being as good or better than Itachi, that's a ridiculous standard to hold someone to as he is one of the best in the entire manga.
- Beyond that i'm not sure Tsukuyomi is better, it depends on whether Bringer of Darkness also blocks sensing & Dojutsu, if it does than Bringer of Darkness is arguably better as your basically fucked if you don't have something like Hiruzen's sense of smell or J-man's motion detection barrier, which really only applies to a select few Ninja. 



> And the ANBU statements are unreliable because we know next to nothing about their experiences.


-We know they have acted as the bodyguards to the Hokage, which is more than enough



> There is literally no point when they only arrived right behind Minato. A half-minute is not going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things so long as Minato can defend one attack. And he did.


- Do I really need to go back and cite where the decisive point in a battle has come down to less than a second? 



> I'm not saying they weren't moving fast, but no indication they were moving at top speed bar Minato at the very end of that trip.


- Not to be a dick, but common sense is the indicator



> Do you have to run with Usain Bolt to admit that he's faster? All you have to do is watch his speed once. Likewise, when Minato had to go ahead to set up the tags, Tobirama got a chance to see his real speed. There's a specific reason why Tobirama decides to comment then and not during the trip. They traveled all the way from Konoha and just then Tobirama decides to praise his Shunshin. Logic tells us that he noted that particular Shunshin to get to the battlefield, which indicates that Minato was with them prior to then.


- Dude i'm talking about the way that scene was portrayed
- Hiruzen and Tobirama apon arrival talk about Minato's speed, obviously this is their reaction to him beating them there. Basically Hiruzen was saying, you beat us here Minato as expected of you, and Tobirama was like I have to admit he's faster than me. 



> [3]
> 
> Taka is literally standing there while they Hiraishin'd to the Hokage heads. Do you not understand what this already implies? They didn't even travel together. The last page Hashirama says, "Let's Go!" meaning they're already ready to start. Nothing of the sorts from Taka. They were just standing there while we got that epic compilation from the Hokages.


-Please tell me your joking; dramatically poseing on the Hokage heads for PNJ purposes does not equal a head start. Hell the Hokage heads could have been in the opposite direction of the Juubi battle and Sasuke had all that time while they were posing to do his thing



> Juugo doesn't have the feats for it. Arriving together is not a feat because there isn't a single instance in the manga where hauling ass due to lack of time means going at top speed.


- He has the feats now and yes it is a feat
- Unless there is some reason for us to mistrust the feat I don't see anything wrong with it and no I don't buy the whole they were taking extra time for no reason while the Juubi attacked the alliance



> Yet when Sasuke was going to use CS Susano'o, he didn't even need to communicate with Juugo. They knew what they had to do already. Which means he had planned it, but didn't necessarily need to use it right away. But maybe he did have to. Sasuke didn't know that.


- Sasuke and Juugo being aware of the combo, does not mean that Sasuke intentionally waited for Juugo because of it or planned to use that combo in this battle itself.
- Sasuke did know the situation and did not use Juugo when starting the battle



> Yet time was of the essence.


- Who cares, it's still not representative of Shunshin, which is what were talking about



> In actuality, there is very little difference. They knew they had to get to Sasuke before the Sound 4 crossed the border of Konoha. And they knew that Gaara was going to die if they didn't rush. More examples:
> 
> -Itachi wanted to stop Edo Tensei as quick as possible, but he was not moving at full speed either.
> -KM Naruto moved to the other battlefields but stayed with Gaara after defeating Muu.
> ...


- Dude I already explained why the Rescue Sasuke Team and Rescue Gaara Teams needed to stick together (go back and read my previous post). This was not the case for the Hokages & Sasuke Team, in-fact they specifically did not stay together.
- Itachi wasn't moving at top speeds says who exactly?
- Huh!?, have no clue what your trying to say with KM Naruto
- They didn't need to use their full speed their as they were trying to stop a genin; here the Hokages are racing to save the alliance from being wiped off the map. Again incomparable situations.
- Not a single one of these situations is similar. 



> Your analogy falls apart when you realize that the first guy who was supposed to come first anyway is fully capable of stalling said demon until the other three arrive, which isn't more than a short exchange of dialogue away.


- How exactly do the Hokages know that Minato is fully capable of stalling Madara, Obito, and Juubi? 
- In-fact if Madara, Obito, or Juubi used different Jutsu or other Jutsu at the same time as the Bijuu Bomb, alliance members could have very well died despite Minato's presence. So basically the Hokages got lucky as hell that Minato was able to stall until they got there. 



> Too much and the wood cracks. Too little and nothing happens at all. The point of that was that too much Chakra makes it so that it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. And this tree climbing method was the basis for Shunshin, as we saw Sasuke apply it to perform his first Shunshin against Haku.


- You do realize that, the "Tree Walking Method" is not a real Jutsu, the ability to channel chakra to ones feet is the tech being used; Tree Walking is just one application for it. So basically you can use as much chakra as you want, it just wouldn't work well when walking on a Tree, but it would when walking on other substances. In no way does this prove their is a limit to how much chakra you can put in a certain technique
- Never heard of the tree walking method being the basis for Shunshin. Sasuke wasn't using Shunshin against Haku, he was just channeling chakra to his feat.



> -It's very basic. Better body speed + equal Chakra enhancement = better Shunshin.
> -Feats.


- Yet no where in the manga (or DB) does it say Better Body Speed = Better Shunshin
- What Body Speed Feats does Minato have that are better than Tobirama's?



> No, before. The page where he stopped in front of the alliance is the page before he leads the alliance straight to the barrier. Hashirama used Shunshin to all four sides of the barrier with his Mokuton clones, but he didn't stop at the barrier. He stopped in front of the Shinobi Alliance which were right in front of the barrier, surrounding it.


- Dude I don't think their even was alliance members on all sides of the Juubi, let alone that massive barrier. I'm pretty sure they were all in-front of the Juubi. If that's the case than Hashirama just Shunshin to four groups of Shinobi and than they ran to the four corners.



> They had no reason to use their max speed unless Tobirama could outdo Minato. And we know that is not the case.


- Yup, no reason, but the rampaging demon of death and the two hax'd out Uchihas



> Who said Naruto couldn't defend? Sasuke stepped in before it reached him. Susano'o is disposable obviously. As long as it stopped the attack, that was what counted.


- The fact that Naruto still has taken no defense actions by the time the Rod hits Susano'o
- Sasuke couldn't be sure it would stop the attack and it almost didn't
- If Sasuke had enough time to use a larger stage it would only make sense to do so, to ensure the attack is stopped.


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2014)

> How was Minato faster? He started closer to Black Zetsu and they ended up in basically the same distance apart from him. He reacted at the same time as Minato, which is ridiculous considering Minato has reacted to A's full speed.


- Minato's hand is closer to reaching Black Zetsu, that's how Minato is faster
- I don't see how Minato started closer than Kakashi; Minato was right next to Kakashi
- Kakashi also has Sharingan so he'd notice Zetsu's appearing underneath the dirt first
- It's really not that ridiculous. Ei's speed is heavily overrated. 



> Actually, the expansion feats are completely different. When Juubito became complete and conscious, his expansion became faster. It even blitzed BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.


- Please show me the statement that states his expansion became faster; it's the same exact element no reason to think it would be faster
- When did it blitz BSM Naruto, show me the panels



> Except Tobirama and Minato are sensors, so they could sense what the Juubi was going to do. One big ball of Chakra being sensed can be logically deduced and Minato could do that by himself.


- Here's my impression of this

Hashirama, "So Minato you're the fastest, you go ahead first, well keep pace w/ Hiruzen"
Minato, "But you guys are much faster than Hiruzen so you could get to the battlefield quicker and help w/ the Juubi"
Tobirama, "Well...ugh ugh... I sensed ahead and all their is some super massive Ball of chakra the Juubi is charging, which I think is only one attack, so you can just warp that away can't you Minato"
Minato, "Wait so were just assuming that ball of chakra can't be anymore than one attack"
Minato, "You know i've seen Bijuu make their Bijuu Bombs into lazer beams before or fire their Bijuu blasts rapid fire; or what if it's a massive AOE shockwave"
Tobirama, "Well  yeah, but I got a really good feeling that it's just one attack"
Minato, "And what if Madara or Obito use some Jutsu?"
Tobirama, "ugh...ugh..."
Minato, "And what if Juubi uses another attack after the Bijuu Bomb before you arrive"
Tobirama, "Well who gives a dam if some fodders die"
Minato, "and why exactly do you need to wait for Hiruzen anyway, it's not speeding up the process at all"
Tobirama, "Well we wanted to discuss some new episodes of our favorite Tv show, yah know"
Minato, "This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of"



> Wrong on both accounts. Kakashi can't clone train on the same scale as Naruto. He can clone train with at least 4-6 clones. And clone training multiplies experience. Spirit energy is completely tied in with that. Increasing muscle mass would increase the number of cells which would also increase body energy.


- How does clone training work w/ Kakashi? So he uses 4-6 clones and does 1 Rarikiri each, okay he's trained Rarikiri 6 times in 1 minute, but now needs an entire day to recuperate. Even if he didn't use clones he could have trained Rarikiri 6 times in 2 minutes or something, and the recover time would have been the same. Thee only reason it works for Naruto, is because Naruto's clones can do a shit ton more than Kakashi and Naruto can create a shit ton more clones.
- Clone training does not increase muscle mass though



> There is a huge difference. Kakashi completely off panel could be doing anything. Kakashi being featured but only off panel for a little bit is limited. There is no reasonable assumption that can be made to say that he took a soldier pill during that fight. There's no proof behind it, but there is a logical assumption as to how Kakashi increased his stamina pool while off panel.


- There is zero difference. Kakashi off panel can be doing anything is right, but he was off panel during the Obito fight numerous times, so he could be doing anything, including taking a soldier pill. And there is no proof behind my Soldier pill idea, but it's also a logical explanation. So sorry, you can't have you cake and eat too, where you can argue Kakashi magically trained off panel and Kishi never indicated it, but he couldn't take a soldier pill off panel with Kishi not indicating it.



> It's subjective based on the feats a 3 in stamina has given us. Who has run out of Chakra quicker with a 3 and perfect Chakra control? Hiruzen, mind you, did not run out of Chakra when he died, so that doesn't count.


- So are you saying Kakashi's chakra control is better than Hiruzen's, because that is extremely doubtful



> That's a matter of better Chakra control from Part I to Part II. Increasing the amount of Raikiris in a single day is indicative that Kakashi's Chakra control was not perfect in Part I since his stamina rank didn't increase. It's also possible that he went from barely made 3 to an almost 3.5 but not quite there. Remember DB ratings are general tiers, not exact values.


-The explanation we were given was that he got better w/ Sharingan not that he got better w/ Chakra control and I doubt Kakashi had chakra control issues in Part I


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - I really doubt Hiruzen couldn't have made 1 more clone
> - And if not, than again it comes down to believing in extreme luck, as your saying the exact number of KB necessary happens to be the exact number of max KB Hiruzen can create



Where are the feats to suggest he could make another clone and keep shooting off those high level Ninjutsu?



> - It was aimed at his face though



He got hit in multiple places, didn't he?



> - His sense of smell was good enough where he could fight with a level of precision within the darkness that we can't expect anyone who does not have a sensory power to be able to accomplish.



Yep.



> - No it doesn't make sense, as Sasuke said Precog won't work on abilities like Enma
> - Basically according to Sasuke Sharingan won't even show a precognition of such an attack, as it typically does
> - Kakashi may be able to react to said attack w/ his own reflexes, that's fine, but Sharingan won't be helping him



Sasuke's statement is not something go on across the board. Bee's Kenjutsu is much more unorthodox than the Kyuubi's Chakra, and he had the same level of trouble deciphering its movements. Except he was much faster and more reflexive. Kakashi has MS as well for better precog.



> - If the standard is being as good or better than Itachi, that's a ridiculous standard to hold someone to as he is one of the best in the entire manga.
> - Beyond that i'm not sure Tsukuyomi is better, it depends on whether Bringer of Darkness also blocks sensing & Dojutsu, if it does than Bringer of Darkness is arguably better as your basically fucked if you don't have something like Hiruzen's sense of smell or J-man's motion detection barrier, which really only applies to a select few Ninja.



But you were the one talking about Part II powerscaling. Within like 10 chapters, Tsukuyomi was produced. Tsukuyomi is still the most brutal Genjutsu and is still a special Genjutsu because of how quick it is in real time.



> -We know they have acted as the bodyguards to the Hokage, which is more than enough



Those guys personally? How do you know?



> - Do I really need to go back and cite where the decisive point in a battle has come down to less than a second?



No, you don't. But when you have someone like Minato who can stall almost any battle for minutes at a time, it's pretty moot. Let's just say that if Piccolo had FTG those 5 minutes would have been much easier lol.



> - Not to be a dick, but common sense is the indicator



Common sense is solely based on one's observations. 



> - Dude i'm talking about the way that scene was portrayed
> - Hiruzen and Tobirama apon arrival talk about Minato's speed, obviously this is their reaction to him beating them there. Basically Hiruzen was saying, you beat us here Minato as expected of you, and Tobirama was like I have to admit he's faster than me.



As Elia also pointed out, Tobirama has called Hiraishin "Shunshin" at least 9 different times. That is also indicative when we see the kunai drop when Minato first comes in. Granted, Minato also has a fantastic Shunshin. But primarily, it appears that he used Hiraishin to get around.



> -Please tell me your joking; dramatically poseing on the Hokage heads for PNJ purposes does not equal a head start. Hell the Hokage heads could have been in the opposite direction of the Juubi battle and Sasuke had all that time while they were posing to do his thing



It implies that they were raring to go as soon as possible. As Hashirama yells "LET'S GO" at the end of that. Taka was standing there the last panel we saw them. At the very least this shows that Taka and the Hokages traveled separately. Which also means they could have gone at a different pace. 



> - He has the feats now and yes it is a feat
> - Unless there is some reason for us to mistrust the feat I don't see anything wrong with it and no I don't buy the whole they were taking extra time for no reason while the Juubi attacked the alliance



We don't exactly know that they used Shunshin. 



> - Sasuke and Juugo being aware of the combo, does not mean that Sasuke intentionally waited for Juugo because of it or planned to use that combo in this battle itself.
> - Sasuke did know the situation and did not use Juugo when starting the battle



Sasuke didn't know the details of what was going on. He is not a sensor. Waiting for Juugo is merely a fail safe just in case.



> - Who cares, it's still not representative of Shunshin, which is what were talking about



Who's to say that the Hokages were maintaining a Shunshin all throughout? Hell, if Tobirama was referring to Hiraishin, who's to say they used Shunshin at all? 



> - Dude I already explained why the Rescue Sasuke Team and Rescue Gaara Teams needed to stick together (go back and read my previous post). This was not the case for the Hokages & Sasuke Team, in-fact they specifically did not stay together.
> - Itachi wasn't moving at top speeds says who exactly?
> - Huh!?, have no clue what your trying to say with KM Naruto
> - They didn't need to use their full speed their as they were trying to stop a genin; here the Hokages are racing to save the alliance from being wiped off the map. Again incomparable situations.
> - Not a single one of these situations is similar.



counter attack
counter attack

Essentially, if we apply the same principle, KM Naruto = Oonoki's flight = Gaara's sand flight = roughly equal to Deidara's flight speed (Oonoki's flight speed was equal to Deidara's). And Deidara's flight speed was roughly equal with how base Naruto and Kakashi were moving (as neither gained ground on each other) in the rescue arc. So KM Naruto = Base Naruto in running speed?

All this goes away if you admit that they're not going at their top speed when time is of the essence. Why this is, ask Kishi. Kishi has his teammates stay together for the most part. That's just a truth that needs to be accepted. 



> - How exactly do the Hokages know that Minato is fully capable of stalling Madara, Obito, and Juubi?
> - In-fact if Madara, Obito, or Juubi used different Jutsu or other Jutsu at the same time as the Bijuu Bomb, alliance members could have very well died despite Minato's presence. So basically the Hokages got lucky as hell that Minato was able to stall until they got there.



All four Hokages know about Hiraishin to some degree. Hashirama and Hiruzen likely have full intel on it because Tobirama being his brother and Hiruzen basically making Minato his understudy for Hokage during the 3rd War. 



> - You do realize that, the "Tree Walking Method" is not a real Jutsu, the ability to channel chakra to ones feet is the tech being used; Tree Walking is just one application for it. So basically you can use as much chakra as you want, it just wouldn't work well when walking on a Tree, but it would when walking on other substances. In no way does this prove their is a limit to how much chakra you can put in a certain technique
> - Never heard of the tree walking method being the basis for Shunshin. Sasuke wasn't using Shunshin against Haku, he was just channeling chakra to his feat.



Actually, that is exactly what Shunshin. Chakra enhanced speed. In fact, the Databook specifically cites that instance in the Shunshin entry.



> - Yet no where in the manga (or DB) does it say Better Body Speed = Better Shunshin
> - What Body Speed Feats does Minato have that are better than Tobirama's?



It's basic application of what the manga has given us. Shunshin is literally just Chakra enhanced speed. Better body speed + equal enhancement = better Shunshin.

Minato has hopped across Konoha with FTG and Shunshin and used Food Cart Destroyer on the Kyuubi before he finished charging a Bijudama. Now what speed feats does Tobirama have that beat that in any category of speed. Reflexes, body movements or Shunshin feats would be appreciated. 



> - Dude I don't think their even was alliance members on all sides of the Juubi, let alone that massive barrier. I'm pretty sure they were all in-front of the Juubi. If that's the case than Hashirama just Shunshin to four groups of Shinobi and than they ran to the four corners.



There were. They were scattered after the SA attack and the Tepenchii.



> - Yup, no reason, but the rampaging demon of death and the two hax'd out Uchihas



Addressed this.



> - The fact that Naruto still has taken no defense actions by the time the Rod hits Susano'o
> - Sasuke couldn't be sure it would stop the attack and it almost didn't
> - If Sasuke had enough time to use a larger stage it would only make sense to do so, to ensure the attack is stopped.



Naruto could have taken defensive action by that time, you don't know. Blocking at the last second is always possible. 

Sasuke was also moving when he activated Susano'o to block it.



Turrin said:


> - Minato's hand is closer to reaching Black Zetsu, that's how Minato is faster
> - I don't see how Minato started closer than Kakashi; Minato was right next to Kakashi
> - Kakashi also has Sharingan so he'd notice Zetsu's appearing underneath the dirt first
> - It's really not that ridiculous. Ei's speed is heavily overrated.



A's speed is not overrated by any means. He was able to land hits on KM Naruto and outrun MS Sasuke's sight. Sasuke was able to track a cloaked Bee's movements and even land Genjutsu on him. It's not easy to react to A's top speed.

Also, Minato is closer because Kakashi is standing on the opposite side of Obito's might-as-well-be-dead body. Black Zetsu took over the side of Obito that Minato was on.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

> - Please show me the statement that states his expansion became faster; it's the same exact element no reason to think it would be faster
> - When did it blitz BSM Naruto, show me the panels



Statements are only as reliable as the person giving them. Feats trump them. But anyway, here are the feats. 


*Spoiler*: __ 









As you can see, they were grabbed before they could react and dodge. This should be obvious now. If the black element could not blitz Sasuke before Obito regained consciousness and could after, there's an obvious speed difference.




> - Here's my impression of this



Your impression is off. This implies that Minato can only stall one attack. Minato, especially as an edo, can stall as many attacks as needed in 30 seconds roughly.



> - How does clone training work w/ Kakashi? So he uses 4-6 clones and does 1 Rarikiri each, okay he's trained Rarikiri 6 times in 1 minute, but now needs an entire day to recuperate. Even if he didn't use clones he could have trained Rarikiri 6 times in 2 minutes or something, and the recover time would have been the same. Thee only reason it works for Naruto, is because Naruto's clones can do a shit ton more than Kakashi and Naruto can create a shit ton more clones.



He uses 4-6 clones and trains his ass off. At the end of the day, he's gained 4-6 times the amount of experience and mental stress as normal, so he's conditioning his spirit energy much quicker. 



> - Clone training does not increase muscle mass though



Just regular conditioning will do that. 



> - There is zero difference. Kakashi off panel can be doing anything is right, but he was off panel during the Obito fight numerous times, so he could be doing anything, including taking a soldier pill. And there is no proof behind my Soldier pill idea, but it's also a logical explanation. So sorry, you can't have you cake and eat too, where you can argue Kakashi magically trained off panel and Kishi never indicated it, but he couldn't take a soldier pill off panel with Kishi not indicating it.



There is a huge difference. Kakashi could not be doing anything off panel when he's being featured. Therefore there is less room for interpretation.



> - So are you saying Kakashi's chakra control is better than Hiruzen's, because that is extremely doubtful



No, I'm not. Where did you get that? Kakashi's and Hiruzen's Chakra control are both perfect.



> -The explanation we were given was that he got better w/ Sharingan not that he got better w/ Chakra control and I doubt Kakashi had chakra control issues in Part I



Kakashi obviously did have Chakra control issues in Part I if he outright stated he could only do Raikiri 4 times in a day, yet used it 6 times against Kakuzu and had no sign of extreme fatigue.


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2014)

@Master Sephiroth

I feel as if this is going around in circles now and I don't see much merit in continuing the discussion, as I don't think any of our opinions will change. The only thing I found interesting was the comment about Tobirama often saying Shunshin instead of FTG, which after checking the Raws seems to be true, however I still believe he was referring to Shunshin in that instance, as the SFX was the one for Shunshin not FTG and the Hokages had used Shunshin to get to the battlefield not FTG. Beyond that we'll have to agree to disagree


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Master Sephiroth
> 
> I feel as if this is going around in circles now and I don't see much merit in continuing the discussion, as I don't think any of our opinions will change. The only thing I found interesting was the comment about Tobirama often saying Shunshin instead of FTG, which after checking the Raws seems to be true, however I still believe he was referring to Shunshin in that instance, as the SFX was the one for Shunshin not FTG and the Hokages had used Shunshin to get to the battlefield not FTG. Beyond that we'll have to agree to disagree



Alright then. Good discussion. 

Beyond all this, I believe Kakashi wins high-very high diff without Kamui.


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