# Aspiring novelists gather! - Part 1



## Tazmo (Aug 25, 2012)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2012)

*Aspiring novelists gather!*

I know there are others out there like me who have books in them. Gather in this thread to discuss your work.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm resurrecting this thread from it's long and terrible slumber.  185,000 words in two years.

Edit: lol tazmo


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 25, 2012)

Now I have to resubscribe.

I really need to move past the idea stage of writing. I did make a nice little storyline while waiting to watch _The Dark Knight Rises_.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 26, 2012)

Nothing really going on here, got my editor now. She's bawss.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 26, 2012)

That reminds me that I should edit some of my shit.  Pour some of the detail of my old draft into my McHuge draft making it super mega but higher quality. I will have some Wheel of Time style brick before I know it but hyper awesome quality.


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## Wax Knight (Aug 29, 2012)

Hello there


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## アストロ (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm trying to make a graphic novel with an original story line and plot. 
It's not going too good, feeling blocked from the creativity and direction needed for the story. But I have a basic idea of what it's going to be like.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 29, 2012)

アストロ said:


> I'm trying to make a graphic novel with an original story line and plot.
> It's not going too good, feeling blocked from the creativity and direction needed for the story. But I have a basic idea of what it's going to be like.


Typical question: What's it about?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2012)

My typical answer to writer's block is write some more.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 29, 2012)

アストロ said:


> I'm trying to make a graphic novel with an original story line and plot.
> It's not going too good, feeling blocked from the creativity and direction needed for the story. But I have a basic idea of what it's going to be like.


There's your problem, originality is overrated. For the price of originality you could probably gotten further telling a story that is whatever you want it to be without being original. There's no need to plagiarize, but years of doing this have taught me that originality only counts if you have the idea already, write the story you want to see, be aware of what's out there but don't worry so much about treading on old ground, there's hardly anything original out there for good reason.


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## neko-sennin (Aug 29, 2012)

5-Starred 

Anyone who wants to know what I'm up to these days need look no further than the Lit Dept itself, but I also went and got a deviantart account last month:



Also includes a growing list of my amps and graphic projects, as well as my writing. Despite some of the warnings I was given about posting writing on there, they seem to have added a fun new feature, Sta.sh Writer, that includes a "WYSIWYG" type text editor, similar to the text editor on this forum, that allows you to format text without any html coding. 

(Not that I didn't already have htlm-coded versions of most of my stuff for e-fic sites, mind you...)



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> There's your problem, originality is overrated. For the price of originality you could probably gotten further telling a story that is whatever you want it to be without being original. There's no need to plagiarize, but years of doing this have taught me that originality only counts if you have the idea already, write the story you want to see, be aware of what's out there but don't worry so much about treading on old ground, there's hardly anything original out there for good reason.



So much wisdom here, it hurts to think how much I used to agonize about that years ago. You get so much more mileage out of well-developed characters than you ever will out of trying to re-invent the wheel.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2012)

I've never tried to be original. Only awesome. I just do what I think feels cool and consistent.


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## hadou (Aug 30, 2012)

Right now I am working on my first novel. I should be done in about two weeks time. By then I will sending to a literary agent.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 30, 2012)

hadou said:


> Right now I am working on my first novel. I should be done in about two weeks time. By then I will sending to a literary agent.


Are you still writing it?


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## hadou (Aug 30, 2012)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Are you still writing it?



Yeah. I have been writing it for nearly two years. Writing a novel is not as easy as one might think


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 30, 2012)

hadou said:


> Yeah. I have been writing it for nearly two years. Writing a novel is not as easy as one might think


It depends on who you are. When I put my mind to it I did 75,000 words in two weeks. So writing is actually the easy part for me, and really most people seem to be saying the editing is the hard thing. I would agree with that idea. If you're just now writing it and finishing up it won't be ready for publication in this year because you need to edit and clean it up.


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## hadou (Aug 31, 2012)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It depends on who you are. When I put my mind to it I did 75,000 words in two weeks. So writing is actually the easy part for me, and really most people seem to be saying the editing is the hard thing. I would agree with that idea. If you're just now writing it and finishing up it won't be ready for publication in this year because you need to edit and clean it up.



I wasn't clear enough; right now I am in the process of editing and rewriting. I already wrote the novel. It's been nearly two years since I first began writing the book as a whole.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 31, 2012)

hadou said:


> I wasn't clear enough; right now I am in the process of editing and rewriting. I already wrote the novel. It's been nearly two years since I first began writing the book as a whole.


Ah I see, I thought you were one of those people who rolls up and is like "Well I wrote this, time to publish it for all the world." 

I get you. 

I'm rewriting my ebook, it's so short it won't take long if I can get it to a place where I like it better. I just decided to change so much that the same copy I had been working with wouldn't have worked in most areas.


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## Shrike (Aug 31, 2012)

It's not like writing itself is the easy part, but editing and rewriting is the worst part, I agree. 

And 75,000 words in two weeks? Goddamn man, that's kind of amazing. Took me two years for about 120.000. Then again, I am lazy as fuck.

About originality, I dunno guys. I can pump out a pretty good story without it being very original, but it doesn't satisfy me. When I write something that I have never seen elsewhere and it looks interesting to me, then I am cool. Reason being when I myself read something that reminds me of other work a bit too much, I am like : meh, been there done that, too unoriginal. 

There are tons of copies of Tolkien's work, for example. Did any of it get to be better then the famous LOTR? Hardly. For example, reading the Sword of Shannara got me to think : hey, this isn't THAT bad, but it's still such a pale copy. And absolutely nothing from that work rests in my memory now. I remember there was a dwarf there, something about a guy who is kinda like Gandalf and bad guys who are pretty much ring wraiths.

See where I'm going?

Sure, there are times when you can be very original with unoriginal story elements. It can be okay, but it can also be horrible. My first longer work, for example, had all original characters, original world etc etc, but it just looked like GRRM a bit too much for my tastes. The style, the setting. And will there ever be someone who will say : hey, this is better than A Song of Ice and Fire? Not really.


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## hadou (Aug 31, 2012)

Editing is the hardest part. 

"It's not the work that's hard, is just the amount of work that's hard"


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## Eternity (Aug 31, 2012)

Started on an idea, but have had a writer in me forever.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 31, 2012)

hadou said:


> Editing is the hardest part.
> 
> "It's not the work that's hard, is just the amount of work that's hard"



I have 160,000 words to edit. I kind of wish I didn't continue to work in that document. I have 185,000 words. But the first 160k is marked up for editing.


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## FacelessIdiot (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm trying to write a complete storyline for an original web comic I plan to upload online when I learn to draw much better. I'm still stuck on developing characters and figuring out trivial things such as the setting/government/economy/fashion and how things turn out, but I've got the basic idea down.


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## hadou (Aug 31, 2012)

FacelessIdiot said:


> I'm trying to write a complete storyline for an original web comic I plan to upload online when I learn to draw much better. I'm still stuck on developing characters and figuring out trivial things such as the setting/government/economy/fashion and how things turn out, but I've got the basic idea down.



The first and most crucial step of any literary work is planning the plot; take your time in this step, and everything else will fall in place.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 1, 2012)

hadou said:


> The first and most crucial step of any literary work is planning the plot; take your time in this step, and everything else will fall in place.


I actually did characters first and the plot dropped into place.


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## Shrike (Sep 1, 2012)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually did characters first and the plot dropped into place.



Not only that, but when I write, I sometimes surprise even myself with the twist that happens or how an event is proceeding (for example a fight or something). It makes it more fun for the writer and it's less likely to be foreseen by the readers. On the other hand, when you have planned everything beforehand, you have steady control of everything that is going on and it's less likely that you will write something that you won't like.


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## Eternity (Sep 1, 2012)

I have two projects (kinda). One of them is just the world and such (Races, places, history, etc) and on the other one I have begun with the general idea and the characters.


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## Hebe (Sep 1, 2012)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually did characters first and the plot dropped into place.



I do this as well. I always start with the character's full biography and then watch them react to the events. 
Pretty new on the forum and glad there are many writers in here


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## Eternity (Sep 1, 2012)

Hebe said:


> I do this as well. I always start with the character's full biography and then watch them react to the events.
> Pretty new on the forum and glad there are many writers in here



Yeah, this is one of the few manga/anime forums with an relativley active lit dept. You have to find literature forums for anything more active


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## Tyrael (Sep 1, 2012)

The old thread is gone now? 

But Imma working my way through an outline atm, got a skeleton in place now just need to do a chapter by chapter plan. Not 100% sure if I want to write this story yet, but once the outline is done I'll see how I feel.


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## Hebe (Sep 1, 2012)

Eternity said:


> Yeah, this is one of the few manga/anime forums with an relativley active lit dept. You have to find literature forums for anything more active



Ah, I see.
Already tried other literature forums but ended up making a wordpress account 

Is anyone a published writer in here?


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## FacelessIdiot (Sep 1, 2012)

So, I've seen that some focus on plot before developing characters fully, while others develop characters before plot. 

I've got the basic layout for what I want to happen and all I really need to do is start to string all events together, but at the same time the reactions of the characters to certain events are extremely important to the story and are even catalysts in a few cases. 

What should I do? Should I focus on plot first or characters?


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## Tyrael (Sep 1, 2012)

Key is just to do, and work out what works for you through practise. Every writer goes through a period of just hoovering up advice when they are starting out, but it's all useless unless you keep plugging away and figuring out what works for you or what doesn't. So just choose which feels right to you, or if you don't have a clue just choose one and go for it.


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## Eternity (Sep 1, 2012)

Hebe said:


> Ah, I see.
> Already tried other literature forums but ended up making a wordpress account
> 
> Is anyone a published writer in here?



Not that I know of, but then again, I am not that active here on the lit dept, so I wouldn't know anyway.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 1, 2012)

hadou said:


> The first and most crucial step of any literary work is planning the plot; take your time in this step, and everything else will fall in place.





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually did characters first and the plot dropped into place.


I made a map first.  Plots and characters sprang from that.


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## Eternity (Sep 1, 2012)

Its all about what works for each individual really.


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Sep 4, 2012)

Well, I'm back, for anyone who remembers me. I've come up with a project which I would work more on if my actual computer weren't in repair currently. 

I'm debating which form I would actually attempt this in, due to the potential of it appearing quite nice in a graphic novel format. However with that I have no artistic abilities in terms of visual media and would have to either find someone who would be able to come up with basic designs and eventually implement everything into a full graphic novel to then be submitted. 

I do have some concerns over how long I would be able to make it in a novel-type format though. If it would help, I can explain the premise to the degree that I have mapped the plot so far. Keep in mind though, that it is a rough concept at the moment, without much focus since I'm still in the stage of idea conception.


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## kazuri (Sep 4, 2012)

Just keep writing and improving your story and forget the very idea that publishing even exists.

You remember when you wanted some magic trick but were too eager to show it to people before you really practiced it enough times? You cant get ahead of yourself, all the small steps are just as important as the big ones.

And dont worry about your computer not working, you can use pen and paper. I find I do my best writing while laying in bed, I cant stay focused at all on computer. of course thats a personal thing, but if your computers broken.. dont just stop completely.

On that note, I recommend carrying around a pad and pen to write down ideas as they come to you in your day to day life. Trust me, I have several notepads completely full of jokes, every time I look through them I see ones I didn't remember. No matter how good an idea is, dont risk losing it because you didnt write it down. You will lose a lot of them if you dont, or, youre just not that creative in the first place.


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Sep 4, 2012)

True enough. I'm still debating on which format I would like to write it for, because for the most part graphic novel scripts aren't able to be converted too easily to novel format without some differences, especially when it comes to length. 

I'm actually the exact opposite on pen and paper writing. I used to just trail everything on pen and paper simply because I was in school and didn't have computer access, and never ended up fully getting them onto type due to it feeling far too tedious to finish. I stopped writing for about a year, simply due to lack of time and ideas with which to use, and I recently decided to return to it since I've had this idea with which to work upon. 

I doubt I'll forget it though, since my friends and I are utilizing the base for an RP session. But I have had the thought of carrying a notebook, though most of them are being used at present and I don't have any spares. I used to just carry around paper for no real reason besides note-taking for my classes.


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## kazuri (Sep 4, 2012)

If you aren't an artist or dont have a very(very) close friend who is one, I'd just try to write a good story. If the story is successful I'd imagine you'd get offers for other types of media like graphic novels, movies, etc.

A notebook is a bit big, I just use a small 3inch wide(or whatever) notepad that people usually use for grocery lists or leaving notes for family etc. They fit nicely in the pocket, altho they can get kinda beat up depending how active you are and if you forget to take it out of your pockets etc.. I dont doubt you will remember your main story idea but youre going to need thousands of smaller ideas too!


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Sep 4, 2012)

True. I could always try and commission someone from DeviantArt to try it for me just to determine whether it would work with the way I imagine everything, but it's worth a shot for a graphic novel format. And the licensing offers are only when things get to be a sensation or extremely popular [i.e. Harry Potter, Narnia, LotR, etc.]. 

I could use something that small, but I'd either forget it exists or scribble random things in it out of boredom and not utilize its purpose like I should. But, I am planning to have some subplots sprinkled throughout [like any feasible plot] though I'm not entirely sure of how it would work at present, simply because I'm still ironing out ideas. And I believe my computer should be back in a couple days, so I'll at least be able to start working more on it then.


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## neko-sennin (Sep 6, 2012)

Eternity said:


> Its all about what works for each individual really.



On that note, I would add to pay attention to what focus brings out your passion.

For a personal example, I found that when I plotted things out, everything felt contrived and scripted, to say nothing of the fact that it just felt increasingly pointless to write down what I already knew was going to happen, because in my own mind it already had. If that makes any sense. Other people have completely different experiences, depending on their own internal creative process.

On the other hand, I found that when I started to shift to the DM/GM approach, merely laying the scenario my characters walk into, and letting them do things their own way, like players in an RP, it became more like documenting natural events, and everything from the plot to the dialogue became a lot more fluid and organic. Bear in mind, though, that this approach relies heavily on a personal knowledge of your characters, and thus it is often establishing new characters from one story to the next that takes longer to flesh out than the parts involving established characters.

And while most of my current series takes place in a shifting world where maps (beyond the "local" level) are meaningless, I can easily see how creating a world/region map could not only lead to story ideas (geopolitical, economic, historical, etc), but also lend a great deal of consistency if travel is involved.



kazuri said:


> On that note, I recommend carrying around a pad and pen to write down ideas as they come to you in your day to day life. No matter how good an idea is, dont risk losing it because you didnt write it down. You will lose a lot of them if you don't.



I can attest to this. In the past decade, I have accumulated 11 notepads full of notes, on all sorts of things, and I continually compile and organize them in a document file on my computer. I do most of my rough drafts in composition notebooks, so I can write anywhere. It also leaves me free to take or leave or alter anything and everything when I start transcribing the working draft, which really changed my editing habits for the better.

At the very least, I would second the recommendation of carrying a notepad.


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## syrup (Sep 7, 2012)

Hello, anybody know any really cheap proofreading services? For documents 50-100+ pages? thanks.

Also any good/ cheap sites to get pics which can use in books without getting sued?


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## Eternity (Sep 7, 2012)

syrup said:


> Hello, anybody know any really cheap proofreading services? For documents 50-100+ pages? thanks.
> 
> Also any good/ cheap sites to get pics which can use in books without getting sued?



Buying from stock photo sites, or you could ask the artist on Deviant Art if you like their pics.

For proofreading, if it's not too long, I am sure you could ask someone you know, either here or irl, or you could search for "free proofreading service" or "proofreading forum"


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 7, 2012)

syrup said:


> Hello, anybody know any really cheap proofreading services? For documents 50-100+ pages? thanks.
> 
> Also any good/ cheap sites to get pics which can use in books without getting sued?



Cheap for that size book is pretty steep, good proof reading can cost hundreds.


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## syrup (Sep 7, 2012)

*Thank you* both for answering, and hmmm well I don't need the proofreading to be perfect. I am not talking about a book in the traditional sense. Nor do I intend to send it to publishers etc, as the "book" wouldn't be of interest to the general public If I were to make it available to people besides myself it would just be on-line print on demand like lulu or something.

However I am terrible with grammar and spelling, and I don't want it to be so poorly written that people can't read it without raging at the language, as the message is important to me. Normally people would just ask someone they know. Yet the subject matter and depth make it unsuitable for anyone I know to read (which is why it will be written with a fake name etc).

Hundreds of dollars is a bit of a problem given I am unable to work and thus only have what can get from welfare. Was hoping someone knew of like some place out of India or something that was cheap due to currency conversions and low wages xP


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 7, 2012)

syrup said:


> *Thank you* both for answering, and hmmm well I don't need the proofreading to be perfect. I am not talking about a book in the traditional sense. Nor do I intend to send it to publishers etc, as the "book" wouldn't be of interest to the general public If I were to make it available to people besides myself it would just be on-line print on demand like lulu or something.
> 
> However I am terrible with grammar and spelling, and I don't want it to be so poorly written that people can't read it without raging at the language, as the message is important to me. Normally people would just ask someone they know. Yet the subject matter and depth make it unsuitable for anyone I know to read (which is why it will be written with a fake name etc).
> 
> Hundreds of dollars is a bit of a problem given I am unable to work and thus only have what can get from welfare. Was hoping someone knew of like some place out of India or something that was cheap due to currency conversions and low wages xP



There's an Arab American writer who offers a service, I don't know how much he charges but I have heard praise of his work on podcasts like "I should be writing". Probably the best bet is finding a beta on some writing site or craigslist.


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## syrup (Sep 8, 2012)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> There's an Arab American writer who offers a service, I don't know how much he charges but I have heard praise of his work on podcasts like "I should be writing". Probably the best bet is finding a beta on some writing site or craigslist.



Hmm maybe I will just divide it into chapters and seek help from multiple people who are nice...what do you guys use for making books? InDesign? Word? Paper? what font and font size are your favs? Also Book size, and margins?


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## kazuri (Sep 8, 2012)

Each publisher expects different formats etc. Go check out some writing forums and they usually have the guidelines for the most popular ones. And you want to follow them EXACTLY, the people who will be reading your stuff will throw it over their shoulder immediately if the text is too small, or you use a hard to read font.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 8, 2012)

syrup said:


> Hmm maybe I will just divide it into chapters and seek help from multiple people who are nice...what do you guys use for making books? InDesign? Word? Paper? what font and font size are your favs? Also Book size, and margins?



That won't work as the person reading it won't have any frame of reference for the previous chapters. You kind of want all your feedback to be uniform. A lot of the people who do editing actually have a certain style or format they edit toward. They'll give different types of comments and they will notice things. My editor right now is good for sentence structure and she notices anything that I do that makes a sentence awkward and she knows how to fix it. She's also good for reading the characters and making sure they make sense AND for reading as a person not particularly interested in science fiction (this helps me make it bearable for those people too).


If you use multiple editors for the whole thing, that's great. But you want to have the same person go over the whole thing. 


Besides, since most charge by the word...it won't make it any cheaper.


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## syrup (Sep 9, 2012)

kazuri said:


> Each publisher expects different formats etc. Go check out some writing forums and they usually have the guidelines for the most popular ones. And you want to follow them EXACTLY, the people who will be reading your stuff will throw it over their shoulder immediately if the text is too small, or you use a hard to read font.



12 pt too big for 6 x 9? depend on font? looks big...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 13, 2012)

The more I think about it, the more similar to Naruto my main character in the e-book seems. She's a dead girl who's got an Eldritch Evil trapped inside of her body, sharing a soul with her and it can take over when she's incapacitated or if she gives it permission.

The Eldritch Evil in question also happens to be her sister. I guess that's where the similarity stops, but I didn't make the connection until I was working on some background stuff.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 21, 2012)

I also had a protagonist containing an ancient being. She is nothing like Naruto though.

My document is now three hundred pages long and has 190k words and I'm beginning to realize I've only just started the real plot.  160,000 words and that was only the set up.


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## Sunuvmann (Sep 21, 2012)

I'm working on a space opera.

But I'm having a tough ass time trying to think up a faction to be the sword of damocles in the series; i.e. the Borg/Zerg/Reapers/Flood/etc.

atm, my best thought now is technozombies that necromancerlike race controls. Sorta like Wights and Whitewalkers.

Its hard thinking up something that hasn't been done to death but can still be a galaxywide threat.


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## Eternity (Sep 21, 2012)

I find that when making races/cultures/etc, its better to keep it simple instead of trying to make something that nobody has done before. Good writing and your own twists and your own soul makes the book/fiction, not the "originality".


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## Lord Yu (Sep 21, 2012)

I find that when creating cultures/ races/etc that you go as far as your interests take you. Never think about originality.


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## Eternity (Sep 22, 2012)

Lord Yu said:


> I find that when creating cultures/ races/etc that you go as far as your interests take you. Never think about originality.



Exactly.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2012)

I started a story about what was basically a racist terrorist group in a fascist country. I should finish that story. It's an interesting stretch of history in my constructed world.


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## Yakkai (Sep 25, 2012)

never mind!

I say.


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## Yakkai (Sep 25, 2012)

syrup said:


> Hello, anybody know any really cheap proofreading services? For documents 50-100+ pages? thanks.
> 
> Also any good/ cheap sites to get pics which can use in books without getting sued?



Images:

I buy from istock photos or dreamstime.com

Also you can search flickr for free public use images, which I have done here and there. Go to search, then advanced search, scroll to the bottom and pick: 

 Only search within Creative Commons-licensed content

     Find content to use commercially
     Find content to modify, adapt, or build upon

As for proofreading, your best bet is friends, because proofreading services are very expensive.

ALSO make sure you have permission to use any fonts in your book and or cover art, and don't assume you do because it came with your computer.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 25, 2012)

I'd read that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 28, 2012)

I've decided to write some alternate steampunk history, post Civil War fiction about a Japanese American woman.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm thinking about writing a stupid short story starring characters all with ironic nationality names.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 29, 2012)

So the idea that I got was alternate history steam-punk where the North nuked the Southern Capital. This world is different in that the world embraced technology earlier and the steam engine became a part of society in the 1400. So technology is further along than ours would have been, but it's different. The story I am doing is about a Japanese-Irish girl who grew up in Texas and it's a short story about her.


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## Sillay (Nov 2, 2012)

i had so many plans for nano. november was going to be the time when i got down and seriously started writing every day. so far, it looks like i'm not going to have enough time, which is really a shame. it gave me the mental boost—i'm fairly good at convincing myself that something is a miracle worker when it really isn't—i needed to start writing again. 

on the other hand, this means i have more time to plan. i've been slowly dredging through the plotting process because i never seem to find the time to do it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 2, 2012)

1. Then write when you have time.
2. You have time, people usually prioritize other things and think they don't have time but often you just put other things above writing.


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 6, 2012)

I guess I can say I'm working on my first book. I don't think I should call it a novel cause it's at 24,000 words right now. But it's called _Arena Trap_... it ain't done yet but it's awesome! Has lots of action


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## cha-uzu (Jun 25, 2013)

This thread is great. had i known it was here i'd have been participated a while ago.

I been trying to write this fantasy novel for about 2 years now but my times been so busy that my focus has lacked. i should be finished by now however, I am stuck at the beginning. I mean i've written 5 begginings and a number of other chapters but I always scrap them and start over. I have created this world to write within, but I just don't know where to start? I know the ending and many of the elements that are within the story. Just don't know where to start. this thread has helped however.


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## EndlessDaylight (Jul 13, 2013)

Ive had a Scifi story in my head for years now,   there are a few other concepts floating around in my head, but this one is the most developed.
Been trying to come up with a good plot and add to the universe, but I really should get writing,  last year I wrote a pathetic amount for it
I got through about half of my first chapter, then got writers block and haven't touched it since...


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## crazymtf (Sep 23, 2013)

I published my first book back in May. I thought it came out good, though I redid it and revised it, fixing grammar mistakes. I have my second book 2 coming out January 2014. I'll make my own topic for it when ready but I'm so glad to see there's a lot more on here still wanting to write stories. I love to read new stories, so if any of you publish work let me know so I can support and read it


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## Suigetsu (Sep 24, 2013)

WOW crazymtf you have a published book? I am impressed, hats down.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 24, 2013)

I'm in the bajillionth draft of my first book. I decided with this draft put each chapter into different documents.  My first rewritten chapter is 30 pages.  I need to rewrite the intro act of my book.


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## LordUchiha (Sep 24, 2013)

Hello everyone,

I'm actually trying really hard to write an epic saga but very few people seem interested in reading it. In a nutshell, its a fantasy/action series that's basically done Shonen style, with a little more adult humor and a deeper plot. 

If anyone is interested, its called Law of Kaos and the first chapter is actually posted here on NF . If anyone reads it and comments I'd greatly appreciate. I would also love to hear ideas from anyone and read their stories as well. I'm always looking for something interesting to keep my mind busy with.


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## Yakkai (Sep 25, 2013)

My first novel, , is available for free download until Sept 29th, 2013. Give it a chance!


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## Lord Yu (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm giving it a shot.


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## crazymtf (Sep 27, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> WOW crazymtf you have a published book? I am impressed, hats down.


Yeah, thanks man! 

@Yak - Downloaded it man =)


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 7, 2013)

Hello people, I need advice:

So I have several books in my head that I want to write but every time I want to make one my debut, a new, better story comes to me and then I want that. And now, I have writer's block for all of the ones I've written so far. 
So pretty much, my question is how should I go about writing the books? I know everything I have planned in terms of plot but not everything in between (the slower parts).



Yakkai said:


> My first novel, , is available for free download until Sept 29th, 2013. Give it a chance!



Being truthful: that cover is just a no for me but that summary sucked me in a bit. I'm gonna try it out :33


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## Yakkai (Oct 7, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> Hello people, I need advice:
> 
> So I have several books in my head that I want to write but every time I want to make one my debut, a new, better story comes to me and then I want that. And now, I have writer's block for all of the ones I've written so far.
> So pretty much, my question is how should I go about writing the books? I know everything I have planned in terms of plot but not everything in between (the slower parts).



Don't let yourself start a new book until you finish the rough draft on this latest one. And don't stop to edit along the way, plow through the rough, then take a break, work on something else, one of your other ideas, then come back fresh to your rough and finish that. I'm like you, I have a ton of good ideas and I have to force myself to stick with one long enough to finish it. Its not easy.  There was a moment about 3/4 of the way through Dancing Bones that I decided it was crap and I needed to stop wasting my time on it. I did take a little break but I stuck it out and kept going, and that moment passed. Its pretty normal to feel that way at some point.



> Being truthful: that cover is just a no for me but that summary sucked me in a bit. I'm gonna try it out :33



Thank you for being truthful! What about the cover is a no for you? Its generally gotten good reactions so far so I'm always interested in hearing the other way.

PS: I got my from Donald Crankshaw of , and it was very kind:



> I am generally not a fan of vampire novels. I prefer my vampires as antagonists rather than as love interests. And for the love of God, sunlight better burn, or at least weaken, them, not cause them to sparkle. So I was taking a chance on this novel, but I’m glad I did.
> 
> It would be a mistake to consider the vampires the good guys. Mr. Alexander has created a dark world, where humanity’s only defense against annihilation by the Deathlords is submission to the nephilim. Admittedly, you can take a positive view of the Code Sanguine, and Marcel Boucher is something of an idealist when it comes to vampire-human relations. But the fact remains that humans are subservient in this world, their blood is demanded by their betters, and their only chance of rising is to be embraced by the nephilim themselves. As Ashia soon discovers when she travels out into the world, many of the nephilim are less concerned with their duties under the Code Sanguine than their privileges, and they are more than willing to take advantage of their position. Of course, this sort of thing is common in fiction that attempts to deal with class distinctions, though usually the upper class living off of the blood of the lower class is a little less literal.
> 
> In this world, even the best of people are morally ambiguous. Marcel Boucher may believe that the nephilim have a duty to protect the mortals, but he still takes advantage of them. And even Ashia believes that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Dusang is so focused on his mission that he ignores other injustices. And Tama can be cruel and indifferent to mortal morality. What is right and wrong in such a world isn’t always clear, and Ashia’s struggles to do what is right by her family and their subjects is part of what makes this story interesting. I appreciate that Mr. Alexander made the questions difficult, and that while Ashia tries to do the right thing, she often lacks the wisdom to make a real difference. It gives her character a chance to grow through failure, which helps bring her to life.


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## crazymtf (Oct 7, 2013)

I also now have a promotion going on for my book for October 7th to October 8th for a FREE download on amazon.com. If you'd take the time to just download and give it a read that be great. Keep in mind the book is made with teen in mind. A new book I'm creating, "Sparks", will be for young adults. But still, give this one a try, seeing as it'll be a 5 book series that I'll post on here a decent amount haha  Let me know if you download it so I can thank you! Enjoy!


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## Yakkai (Oct 7, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> I also now have a promotion going on for my book for October 7th to October 8th for a FREE download on amazon.com. If you'd take the time to just download and give it a read that be great. Keep in mind the book is made with teen in mind. A new book I'm creating, "Sparks", will be for young adults. But still, give this one a try, seeing as it'll be a 5 book series that I'll post on here a decent amount haha  Let me know if you download it so I can thank you! Enjoy!



Downloaded! I love the cover.


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## Yakkai (Oct 7, 2013)

Where did you get your artist and how much did it cost you?


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## crazymtf (Oct 7, 2013)

He was a viewer of my reviews on youtube. He's a college student who's main focus is art. He charged me a little less since he knows me and watches a lot of my stuff but I believe he charges around 200 normally for a 8-10 hour project. Something around there. But I mean he really focuses on it, he makes sure you like it by giving you a few test samples, and will change anything you want. Greatjob really.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 8, 2013)

Yakkai said:


> Don't let yourself start a new book until you finish the rough draft on this latest one. And don't stop to edit along the way, plow through the rough, then take a break, work on something else, one of your other ideas, then come back fresh to your rough and finish that. I'm like you, I have a ton of good ideas and I have to force myself to stick with one long enough to finish it. Its not easy.  There was a moment about 3/4 of the way through Dancing Bones that I decided it was crap and I needed to stop wasting my time on it. I did take a little break but I stuck it out and kept going, and that moment passed. Its pretty normal to feel that way at some point.



My first book, called Arena Trap, has been on pause since I lost the final draft file due to a flashdrive malfunction. It's almost done with the old rough draft but if I do make that my debut, it'll be like a Star Wars thing going on because it is a sequel of the sequel but with its own story. (Something like Legend of Korra.) 



Yakkai said:


> Thank you for being truthful! What about the cover is a no for you? Its generally gotten good reactions so far so I'm always interested in hearing the other way.



The girl and the bones seem out of place, like it doesn't fit and the background isn't really... it doesn't fit. I can't explain why everything doesn't fit, but it just doesn't (  .__.)



crazymtf said:


> I also now have a promotion going on for my book for October 7th to October 8th for a FREE download on amazon.com. If you'd take the time to just download and give it a read that be great. Keep in mind the book is made with teen in mind. A new book I'm creating, "Sparks", will be for young adults. But still, give this one a try, seeing as it'll be a 5 book series that I'll post on here a decent amount haha  Let me know if you download it so I can thank you! Enjoy!



Is it an actual paper book or is it Kindle only?


Lastly... Would any of you mind reading this rough draft of a prologue I did a while back? It's full of errors and some of the dialogue may seem off, things are bound to change and whatnot. But it's, so just tell me what you think.
It's pretty long (6 pages on Word).


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## Lord Yu (Oct 8, 2013)

I might end up finishing the sequel to my first work as well. The original story is a clusterfuck of ideas and unconventional structure.  The sequel is more forward and easier to follow. It might be better to introduce the world to The Gear Eyed Girl before I unleash The Doll and The Madman.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 8, 2013)

I've rewritten my first book like six times without ever getting a proper finished draft. (It's a really long story)  My last draft was over 200k words.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 8, 2013)

My first book, Arena Trap, when it was finished in the rough draft, was a little over 27K words. It's not a lot. 

I plan on making a two book series around 75,000 words each. They're pretty long stories.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 8, 2013)

I stop my books when I feel the story has come to a good stopping point. I've only done that once. I've built such a huge world to write in I can never keep my stories short.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 8, 2013)

What do you guys think of all my books being interlocked in one big timeline? 
Like, all of them are different points in time but still on the same planet?


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## crazymtf (Oct 8, 2013)

I think a series can be however long someone feels is right. Stephen King always said first books should be around 80,000 words but my first was around 130,000. So I don't follow his idea. I think a 400 page book is a good start. I personally probably won't write much larger than that for the simple fact that I like to split books up. Except one I'm writing now which should be around 200-300 pages


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## Yakkai (Oct 8, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> What do you guys think of all my books being interlocked in one big timeline?
> Like, all of them are different points in time but still on the same planet?



Great idea. Almost all of Heinlein's books were set in the same universe/timeline.


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## Cjones (Oct 8, 2013)

I can't believe I've never noticed this section. 

Read through the thread and everyone seems pretty accomplished, so I was wondering about some advice on how to start a beginning of a story? I want to write a novel, and honestly have a pretty decent middle part (mostly fighting) planned out, and atm am going through what characters I want where, how they react, who'll fight and etc. It's been about a year and I'm just having the hardest time with a beginning.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 8, 2013)

Sit down, write something, anything and go from there. Find your rhythm and when you find one you can go back and edit it if it doesn't fit your found rhythm.


Malicious Friday said:


> What do you guys think of all my books being interlocked in one big timeline?
> Like, all of them are different points in time but still on the same planet?



I'm doing that myself. If you really feel committed to your world then go for it.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 8, 2013)

I just started the beginning with a brief description of the scenery and then dialogue.

Edit: I think that the hardest thing for me personally is choosing whether to write a story in first or third person. (Maybe second? )


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## crazymtf (Oct 9, 2013)

Cjones said:


> I can't believe I've never noticed this section.
> 
> Read through the thread and everyone seems pretty accomplished, so I was wondering about some advice on how to start a beginning of a story? I want to write a novel, and honestly have a pretty decent middle part (mostly fighting) planned out, and atm am going through what characters I want where, how they react, who'll fight and etc. It's been about a year and I'm just having the hardest time with a beginning.



I usually start and just go with it. Start whatever, even if it kind of sucks. You can always go back and fix it. Once you have the rhythm, that feel for the book, you won't stop writing. 

Like on Friday I began writing a book titled "Sparks" which is my new book about a guy who's not only the first "superhero" but he also gets "cancer" at age twenty three. I deal with the very human side of the issues, where's the superhero moments come from interviewers points of views. I started with chapter one on Friday and I'm now on chapter seventeen. With over 80 pages done in word. Which translates to nearly 200 pages in book. 

So just go man, it'll come to you.


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## Cjones (Oct 9, 2013)

Lord Yu said:


> Sit down, write something, anything and go from there. Find your rhythm and when you find one you can go back and edit it if it doesn't fit your found rhythm.





crazymtf said:


> I usually start and just go with it. Start whatever, even if it kind of sucks. You can always go back and fix it. Once you have the rhythm, that feel for the book, you won't stop writing.



Cool. I see where you're coming from. There always this opening of one of the main characters being the "commentator", so I think I'll get some time and sit down and just see how it goes. Perhaps that could be my problem too, just can't find time to actually sit down and write with school.



> Like on Friday I began writing a book titled "Sparks" which is my new book about a guy who's not only the first "superhero" but he also gets "cancer" at age twenty three. I deal with the very human side of the issues, where's the superhero moments come from interviewers points of views. I started with chapter one on Friday and I'm now on chapter seventeen. With over 80 pages done in word. Which translates to nearly 200 pages in book.
> 
> So just go man, it'll come to you.



That's pretty awesome both the book and writing 80 pages in word in about 4 days.. I've got about maybe 300 (possibly more) note cards tapped together around my room with different plot ideas and what not written down for the story. 

Also how do you characters names? I keep finding myself doing research to give my characters names with a specific meanings based around their personalities, but then I'm like "Screw it, I should just name her Donna or something. Like will someone care enough unless the name sounds really stupid."


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## crazymtf (Oct 9, 2013)

I do a mix with names. Sometimes I use names that mean something, but a lot of times I take names from people I know and it gives me a idea of the personality I want to form from that person. Then...I make sure they don't read it  Just kidding. But that's how I create a lot of my characters. 

ALSO if any of you are interested in a cover for your book let me know. The guy I use is setting up his site very soon. He charges 200 or more, depending on the level of work you need to be done, but trust me when I say he's good. A cover is one of the strongest and most important factors in first impressions for your book. Check my Sig to see the actual first cover and I'll also post cover 2 of my book soon. If you are interested PM me and I'll send you his website with his work and E-mail


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 9, 2013)

I usually make up my own names (Andro, Adirus, Semto, Azarameth, etc.) unless I'm writing in past or present time. Other times I would put it a word that has to do with the character and his or her name would be in a different language.


Do you think if I give him a drawing of how I would like it to look, would he redraw it to look better?


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## crazymtf (Oct 9, 2013)

He would. He can follow detail really well. I like to let the artist do his own thing with my ideas suggested. I can give you his e-mail and you can ask, he's a great guy and is always very professional. 

P.S. - Stupid G-Mail is down so once it's up i'll get the info for you =)


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 9, 2013)

Um, sure alright.  Thanks.


To those who have already published a book, are you self-published or did you get published by a publishing house?


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## crazymtf (Oct 9, 2013)

Here is his e-mail and some other work he has done. And I self-published. Big time publishers care more about releasing the same books with same authors. Small publishers don't help spread your book around enough and if you do bad basically sign a contract to sell maybe one book a year. Self-publish is the way to go, but you have to be determined. 

Tav Kong <mrtkong@gmail.com>

His art work - Sauce.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 9, 2013)

How does self-publishing work? I want to know from a person who has done it personally. *rubs your face* I want to know _everything_. 

And thanks. He's definitely a good artist. I'll contact him when I'm done with rough draft though. Probably when Arena Trap is done. It's only 5-6 short chapters away from completion.


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## crazymtf (Oct 9, 2013)

It's not to hard to self publish. You can do it different ways but I personally think Createspace is the way to go. For two major reasons. 

1. It's bought out by Amazon (One business that will be around for YEARS) 

2. They take a smaller cut than other sites I checked. 

They also can link up to Amazon quicker and you can get the kindle version up at all the same time. Their prices are fair and they work well with you in communication and contacting them. 

Try them out. It's easy to do. The hardest part is to actually get the promotion going. I've spent a lot of weeks putting my hard work into promotions on my site and building up hype. 

I sold 130 copies of my book combined on kindle and paperback. I put it free this week, because it's been out 5+ months and I got over 250+ downloads. This is huge. The more people read it, the more I have a chance of selling book 2. SO it's all a game, market it right, and it'll work for you.


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## Yakkai (Oct 10, 2013)

I agree Createspace is the way to go, with one caveat. 

In my area, some indie bookstores are boycotting amazon, and thus anyone doing books through Createspace. Its an extra hurdle to go through.


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## crazymtf (Oct 10, 2013)

Yakkai said:


> I agree Createspace is the way to go, with one caveat.
> 
> In my area, some indie bookstores are boycotting amazon, and thus anyone doing books through Createspace. Its an extra hurdle to go through.



Have you've gotten your book in stores? I can't seem to find a way to do so. Of course the ones near me are bigger brand.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 10, 2013)

Downloaded both your books btw. Will tell you what I think when I get around to reading through them.


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## Yakkai (Oct 10, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> Have you've gotten your book in stores? I can't seem to find a way to do so. Of course the ones near me are bigger brand.



Still working on that. I'm part of a writer's cooperative that has managed to get all our books in the state library system. I'm hoping that and participation in the coop will help give me enough cred to get the book in some indie stores. Its really an uphill battle out there.


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## Buskuv (Oct 10, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> Have you've gotten your book in stores? I can't seem to find a way to do so. Of course the ones near me are bigger brand.



There's always a few indie stores around.

Always.

The store at which I work takes in quite a few books from local authors.  We've even done a few book signings, albeit spread out over quite some time.  You've got to get into the indie circuit if you can't break into big-box stores, which you won't really get access to until you're fairly successful.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 11, 2013)

How do you guys go about coming up with titles? Right now, I'm having trouble name the book I'm working on right now, at this literal moment. 
I'm planning on calling the first book the Four Worlds and the second book the Four Sovereigns but I don't know...


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## Yakkai (Oct 11, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> How do you guys go about coming up with titles? Right now, I'm having trouble name the book I'm working on right now, at this literal moment.
> I'm planning on calling the first book the Four Worlds and the second book the Four Sovereigns but I don't know...



This is one of the big things I struggle with, both titles and names for characters. All I can say is that you'll know the right title when you get to it, and luckily this is the last thing you really need to do. I didn't figure out the title of my book until I was well into my first revision.


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## Banhammer (Oct 11, 2013)

50k words in, nd I'm 1/6 through


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 11, 2013)

Prologue + 3 1/2 chapter = 13K words. 

Shit .___.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 11, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> How do you guys go about coming up with titles? Right now, I'm having trouble name the book I'm working on right now, at this literal moment.
> I'm planning on calling the first book the Four Worlds and the second book the Four Sovereigns but I don't know...



Most of my titles just come to me without really thinking.


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## crazymtf (Oct 12, 2013)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> There's always a few indie stores around.
> 
> Always.
> 
> The store at which I work takes in quite a few books from local authors.  We've even done a few book signings, albeit spread out over quite some time.  You've got to get into the indie circuit if you can't break into big-box stores, which you won't really get access to until you're fairly successful.



True I saw four different ones on my search this week. So I'ma release book 2 of Exterminators January and my "Sparks" book in March and go to them around then to see if we can make some type of deal.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 16, 2013)

Well I edited the prologue.  if you want to read it.


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## kazuri (Oct 16, 2013)

Couple ideas for you indie guys.

Talk to the managers in bigbox stores, I would even go as far as giving them the books upfront free and only get money from them if they sell.

INVEST. go to a sign printer and have small signa made advertising your book, and emphasis that you are a LOCAL writer, people in similar positions to you might be more willing to buy a book they wouldnt have if the know you are doing same thing as them. Try to get them to display the book/sign on a table/counter. And dont be cheap, get it professionally printed and designed. The managers would be much more likely to do it if they saw you took your time and put effort into a sign that looks great.

Ask to try to sell the book only while you are there(i would only ask this if the above failed) Much easier to talk someone into something than letting book cover sell it. Especially if you take the 'im a local writer' approach

Used book stores would probably be much easier to get cooperation from doing these things, but unfortunately they arent as busy as big book chains in malls, etc.

give copies of your book away free to the managers, and maybe even the employees, if they read it and like it they might consider it more.


-titles- 
If you cant find a line in your book that would make a great title, the book probably sucks. In other words, dont worry about it until after youre done writing, and have read it 100x. You will have had a chance to get to know your book and characters better and it should be much easier to create a title, or notice one from a line in the book. (note, not saying you cant have a great title thats not a line in your book, but there should at least be a few good lines that would make a good title too, if you cant think of one that isnt from the book)


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## Yakkai (Oct 16, 2013)

My book's gotten a little professional attention from . 


*Spoiler*: __ 



This month?s self-published book is Mistress of the Dancing Bones by Thomas Alexander.

Four hundred years ago, the Deathlords threatened to destroy all of humanity. It was the nephilim who saved the human race. Thus was the Code Sanguine founded: humans swore to serve the nephilim, and if required, give them their blood, while the nephilim swore to protect humanity, and raise the best of the humans to nephilim themselves. For before the Code Sanguine, the nephilim were known by another name: vampires.

Ashia is the daughter of a nephilim warlord, Marcel Boucher, and his human wife. This does not make her a nephilim, or even part nephilim. She is fully human until embraced by the nephilim. She is also, thanks to her mother, Dahraki, one of the dragon-blooded, and that gives her access to another kind of magic, the necromancy of the Than Khet. Unfortunately, the servant who secretly tutored her in Than Khet magic neglected to tell her that it is incompatible with becoming nephilim. Should a Than Khet be embraced as a nephilim, she would go mad as the two parts of herself warred.

When he discovers what has happened, Ashia?s father is furious. All his dreams for his daughter have come crashing down. But larger problems plague Ashia?s family. Renegade vampires are plaguing Marcel?s territory and the family?s enemies are placing the blame squarely on Marcel and his willingness to embrace barbarians rather than civilized Avensh as nephilim. In order to discover the truth, Ashia agrees to accompany the legendary nephilim witch-hunter Dusang and his demon-cat-fey ally, Tama, in tracking down the renegades and discovering the truth behind a conspiracy that involves not only renegades and political enemies, but the Deathlords themselves.

I am generally not a fan of vampire novels. I prefer my vampires as antagonists rather than as love interests. And for the love of God, sunlight better burn, or at least weaken, them, not cause them to sparkle. So I was taking a chance on this novel, but I?m glad I did.

It would be a mistake to consider the vampires the good guys. Mr. Alexander has created a dark world, where humanity?s only defense against annihilation by the Deathlords is submission to the nephilim. Admittedly, you can take a positive view of the Code Sanguine, and Marcel Boucher is something of an idealist when it comes to vampire-human relations. But the fact remains that humans are subservient in this world, their blood is demanded by their betters, and their only chance of rising is to be embraced by the nephilim themselves. As Ashia soon discovers when she travels out into the world, many of the nephilim are less concerned with their duties under the Code Sanguine than their privileges, and they are more than willing to take advantage of their position. Of course, this sort of thing is common in fiction that attempts to deal with class distinctions, though usually the upper class living off of the blood of the lower class is a little less literal.

In this world, even the best of people are morally ambiguous. Marcel Boucher may believe that the nephilim have a duty to protect the mortals, but he still takes advantage of them. And even Ashia believes that?s the way it?s supposed to be. Dusang is so focused on his mission that he ignores other injustices. And Tama can be cruel and indifferent to mortal morality. What is right and wrong in such a world isn?t always clear and Ashia?s struggles to do what is right by her family and their subjects is part of what makes this story interesting. I appreciate that Mr. Alexander made the questions difficult and that, while Ashia tries to do the right thing, she often lacks the wisdom to make a real difference. It gives her character a chance to grow through failure, which helps bring her to life.

What Ashia doesn?t lack is power. Two different types of magic are central to this story: the necromancy practiced by the Than Khet and at least some of the fey, such as Tama, and the mystere noir of the nephilim. In truth, it may be that the two are not as different as they seem. Necromancy is not the straight-out death magic it is in many stories. It can heal as well as drain life, and it can even transform. Many of the Dahraki have tattoos that let them take the form of dragons and it is an open question whether there are any real dragons or just Dahraki who can transform into ones. The mystere noir of the nephilim are more unique. Every vampire has one that lets him do something different, whether it is reading and controlling minds, astral projection, or foreknowledge. Despite the uniqueness, all forms of the mystere noir seem to be powered by blood, as might be expected for vampires.

Ashia is a novice Than Khet at the beginning of the book. She knows how to heal and give life force, but not how to take it. Her first offensive use of her ability is an adaptation of giving life, using life energy to propel sharpened bones at targets?hence the Dancing Bones of the book?s title. When she learns to drain life, she discovers she can use those bones to form connections with the targets they strike and drain them all the faster. As those targets are usually vampires that can kill her before she can drain their energy, she needs all the advantage she can get.
Most of the battles in the book are magical rather than physical and tend to be more about endurance than who can strike first. Vampires can take a lot of punishment, and since Ashia is constantly draining her enemies and healing herself and her allies, so can she. This does tend to change the dynamic and to push the tension toward the end of the battle, when everyone is on their last legs and you?re wondering when that last vampire will finally die. I?ll admit that I?m a bit conflicted about this. I often feel cheated when the fights in fiction are too short and we?re back to talking about feelings before the smoke clears. On the other hand, it?s possible to draw out combat too long, and I think sometimes the author did this, especially when the protagonists went to clear out the vampire nest. Most of the time, though, he managed the length better, and the fight felt like it was just long enough.

Aside from the fights, the storytelling does not drag. Things happen at a quick pace, the mystery is revealed step by step, and the characters and relationships develop quickly. Overall, things were more likely to happen too fast rather than too slow.

Tama is a challenging character in this book. She?s not human, or even previously human, so she has a different view of things, and acts based on attachments and intuitions that don?t always make sense. Which was doubtless what Mr. Alexander was aiming for, so I can?t deny he succeeded. Where I?m not certain he succeeded is in the relationship between Tama and Ashia. It starts out antagonistic, before Ashia eventually warms to her. But Ashia?s change of heart seems too sudden and not really justified by Tama?s actions. While the general arc of the relationship feels right, the ultimate end is not as well earned as I would have liked. Ashia and Dusang, on the other hand, felt more real. Dusang is old, a hunter who was there when the empire began, and is feeling the weariness of the long struggle against chaos. This balanced well against Ashia?s eagerness and youth, giving them a familiar master-apprentice relationship. The development of that bond was more believable. The relationship between the three of them forms the core dynamic of the book and overall works well (with the caveat mentioned above), as their conflicting motivations slowly become less important than their loyalty to one another.

The novel certainly is not immune to editing errors common in self-published books. I noticed a number of typos and small continuity errors, and points where the logic of the narrative did not flow smoothly. That said, it was still a very clean book, and all the issues were minor: I?ve seen worse from books put out by major publishers. The prose, as well, was smooth and engaging.
Mistress of the Dancing Bones is clearly the first book in a series, which is made clear as much by the cliffhanger ending as the ?To be continued? at the end. But even before reaching the end, I could tell that Ashia?s story was far from over. It was simply too big to be contained in a novel of this length. And that?s a good thing. There?s more to tell, and I hope that Mr. Alexander manages to convey the next stage of Ashia?s adventure with as much verve and believability as the first stage.

Mistress of the Dancing Bones is available as an e-book on Amazon.


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## crazymtf (Oct 17, 2013)

kazuri said:


> Couple ideas for you indie guys.
> 
> Talk to the managers in bigbox stores, I would even go as far as giving them the books upfront free and only get money from them if they sell.
> 
> ...



Barnes and Noble won't accept any books not processed through a publisher...those fucks >


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## Yakkai (Oct 26, 2013)

I posted this in the sticky above and it went nowhere, so I'll ask the little group that's posting in this thread. Any of you doing Nanowrimo? I have a great local region and I'm very active in that, but curious if any of you want to be writing buddies this year?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 26, 2013)

I might try this year. I have "tried" in years past but let other things distract me.


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## Yakkai (Oct 26, 2013)

It was a really valuable experience for me. It helped cement the difference in various phases of writing, namely that you didn't have to reach perfection in a rough draft.


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## Tyrael (Oct 27, 2013)

I'm down. Not yet completed a NaNo (hit 36k a few times), but I'd be remiss not to give it a try.

Might be worth making a thread about it? Not sure if you'd drum up much interest in here, but worth a try.


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## Mider T (Oct 27, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> Barnes and Noble won't accept any books not processed through a publisher...those fucks >



And they shouldn't.  People always complain about Big Book chains having poor quality, if a publisher won't sponsor an author it's usually because of terrible writing/pandering to such a small niche they'd be losing money.

There's online resources for that sort of thing.


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## crazymtf (Oct 27, 2013)

Mider T said:


> And they shouldn't.  People always complain about Big Book chains having poor quality, if a publisher won't sponsor an author it's usually because of terrible writing/pandering to such a small niche they'd be losing money.
> 
> There's online resources for that sort of thing.



So the publishers of such classic and well written titles like "Fifty Shades of Gray" and "Twilight" are quality stuff and deserve to be put into a big chain store but actual well written books (Like the 4 I just read in the past month) done by independent or small publishers aren't worth getting into stores? 

Yep, makes sense 

And actually publishers hope for cliche stories that have been written a hundred times before cause they would sell, as sad as that sounds. Being good/writing well doesn't matter much to publishers anymore.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 27, 2013)

You could say it's less about quality and more about bankability.  Fifty Shades and Twatlight maybe shit but they sell gangbusters. They need to see if there is a large enough audience for the work.


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## crazymtf (Oct 27, 2013)

Indeed. If it's shitty it actually has a better chance of selling now days. That, and publishers like authors who follow in the tracks of other authors. That way they can promote them with "the "blank" who will dethrone Stephen King" and so on.


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## Tyrael (Oct 28, 2013)

Indeed.

It's funny how much power the big chains have - often they'll dictate things like cover image and title to the publishers.


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## Malicious Friday (Oct 28, 2013)

After reading this, I don't even want to send anything I write to a publishing house... maybe...


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## Tyrael (Oct 28, 2013)

It's worth having a look to see what opportunities are there. Just keep your mind open and look at other methods of getting your work out there.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 28, 2013)

Lord Yu said:


> You could say it's less about quality and more about bankability.  Fifty Shades and Twatlight maybe shit but they sell gangbusters. They need to see if there is a large enough audience for the work.


People are so quick to slam these books for being so terrible, but they were easily accessible and fun reads (at least for the people who liked them). Simply insulting them and being critical of what they did won't get you their numbers, trying to write higher brow stuff won't either. There's a lot of luck involved and then there's also writing something that people will like.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 28, 2013)

Bile fascination. Luck is a factor a lot of people discount.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 28, 2013)

Luck is a huge factor in the entertainment industry. Most stories of success have an element of luck to them. The best singer might never be discovered, the best artist might not draw anything to sell and the best writer won't always publish a novel. The odds are stacked against us from the start because for us to make it so much has to fall in place.


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## Tyrael (Oct 28, 2013)

I just find thinking or talking about luck useless - it plays a massive part, but it's not as if you can control it. Just concentrate on giving yourself enough opportunities to be lucky is my focus.


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## crazymtf (Oct 29, 2013)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> People are so quick to slam these books for being so terrible, but they were easily accessible and fun reads (at least for the people who liked them). Simply insulting them and being critical of what they did won't get you their numbers, trying to write higher brow stuff won't either. There's a lot of luck involved and then there's also writing something that people will like.



I insult them because they are actually horribly written. Like seriously terrible dialog and the worst character development I ever seen. I only read book one of both series but it was enough to make me stop reading. I never stop reading a series...I almost always finish. These were very very bad. 

But I do agree that luck plays a HUGE part. It's luck, accessibility, who you know, and skill. Combining them all with become success. How big? Matters how lucky you become haha. 

Sending to a publisher is fine. Though a lot of them use a old way that's more of a pain to do than anything else. Still, can always send your work out and still self-publish in the mean time. Though, profit wise, if you do hit it big self publishing you'll make ALOT more. It is hard though to hit it big. Keep hustling my fellow authors!


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## Tyrael (Nov 1, 2013)

I admire that authors like Meyer and James have been able to genuinely engage such a huge group of readers to be honest. Tons of people have found something they connect with in those books so there must be something to it. It's far too easy an argument to just palm them off as terrible books. If you're just terrible then you won't sell that well.

I'm not really qualified to talk about the actual writing, since I've read a sole total of 3 pages and seen none of the films, however.


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## crazymtf (Nov 6, 2013)

^Meh, lot of popular things that aren't good. Music/TV/Movies and Books are no different. 

Anyway new cover is in for book 2 of my Exterminator series. Tell me whatcha guys think! 

Paperback Cover - 


Kindle Cover -


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## Yakkai (Nov 6, 2013)

I love it!


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## Cjones (Nov 6, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> ^Meh, lot of popular things that aren't good. Music/TV/Movies and Books are no different.
> 
> Anyway new cover is in for book 2 of my Exterminator series. Tell me whatcha guys think!
> 
> ...



Gorgeous. Did the same person make it?


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## crazymtf (Nov 6, 2013)

Yakkai said:


> I love it!



Thanks!!! 



Cjones said:


> Gorgeous. Did the same person make it?



Yep, he did a great job IMO. Brought the overall feel of the second book. The dark/moody setting.


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## Malicious Friday (Nov 6, 2013)

Fucking epic, man.


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## Tyrael (Nov 6, 2013)

Yeah, looks awesome likes.


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## crazymtf (Nov 7, 2013)

Thank you both, really, that means a lot. I believe the cover helps show the overall theme and feel of a book. Glad you guys like it, means I got the right idea to catch attention 

Here's a video I did showing the creation of the cover throughout. How it started and ended. Also there's a link in the video for the first book in the series and it's free today (November 7th) 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf6VM9TAbbc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Malicious Friday (Nov 11, 2013)

Can one of you guys help me on this:

One of my character's name is Redu?le (rey-dw?-l?) and due to losing his fiance, Maria, he removed all emotions from himself so he will not love another woman. However, I am having trouble writing his so emotionless. I have a few questions regarding this:

Can one without emotions judge another?

Is it possible to become smarter without emotions or do you need emotions to learn more?

When working in a team, do you think an emotionless person is able to work well with other?

Those are basically the problems I have with him.


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## kazuri (Nov 11, 2013)

> Can one without emotions judge another?
> 
> Is it possible to become smarter without emotions or do you need emotions to learn more?
> 
> When working in a team, do you think an emotionless person is able to work well with other?



As someone with no emotions I can help you here.

1. Yes, emotionlessness doesnt mean you dont know right/wrong. You just dont really care. You dont want bad things to happen to people but you dont cry when it does.
2. Yes I think you can notice a lot of things you normally wouldnt without emotions, but you arent going to love anything enough to spend hours studying it, so its kinda a tradeoff.
3. I think that mostly depends on their personality before they lost emotions. I had no problem working with people in classes. I had little enthusiasm but I still got things done correctly. I wasnt rude or anything like that either.

Writing someone without emotions can be really hard because youll want to make them mean, or not want to act on certain things but thats really not the case. its kinda like that old phrase 'going through the motions'

For your character, how he lost emotions, I think he would mostly turn things down when people wanted to do things, certain amount of contempt for people in relationships. probably give up a lot of the hobbies/activities he liked before the loss. Lack of enthusiasm for most things.


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## Tyrael (Nov 11, 2013)

Are you actually talking full blown sociopathic? Even if not, is worth doing a bit of research about it.


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## Buskuv (Nov 11, 2013)

Are you trying to say he has no emotions or a complete lack of human empathy?

Ty's right if you're on about the latter.

I'd find it rather... un-immersive, honestly, to have a character completely devoid of emotion; nor are emotions so simple as "I'm sad." or "I'm mad."  Even mammals have emotions--emotions aren't really silly things that get in the way of our cold, mathematical calculators, otherwise known as 'brains'; they'r deeply tied to our concept of survival as it has evolved past simple 'kill/hide or be eaten' into a complex system of social, mental and physical needs, as well as the propagation of your genes which is a pretty innate and primal drive in every single living organism.   

I'm probably picking this apart far too much, but someone without emotions would probably have no need for anyone other than to aid himself, to stay alive.  So, yeah, total fucking sociopath.


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## kazuri (Nov 11, 2013)

just for a little more perspective. 

I have no emotions, but I became a vegetarian years later. I think its wrong, but I dont cry when I see those ASPCA commercials. 

Having no emotions, or being a 'sociopath' doesnt make you evil like so many seem to think.

If there was a truck barreling down on a kid, I would push kid out of the way and get hit myself, but if I didnt make it in time I wouldnt hate myself forever.


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## Malicious Friday (Nov 14, 2013)

Another question: For the second book in my Four Worlds series, I'm planning on having Anetelia, the antagonist of both books, take over the world. (She really is. She's pretty much defeated all the main characters except for one.) Will I get shitstorm from people if I kill off a few world leaders like Obama and Kim Jong-Un on-page and the rest off-page??


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## LogiaMaster666 (Nov 16, 2013)

This is LOOONG. We're talking almost 20 paragraphs. It's a manga in progress I've titled Angels, that I've been working on and off of for over a year. I doubt anyone will take a look, but I'd beyond appreciate feedback. I've gotten a few good mentions from people on Facebook, but no validation from people with better literary knowledge like what may be here. Be straight. I'd rather have you bluntly point out an inconsistency than be polite and leave me to not know what to fix.

The posts will almost say otherwise, but I'm not a religious person.


Part 1



Part 2


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## ~Avant~ (Nov 19, 2013)

I've been working on the mythos for my story for about 2 years now, I have the actual storyline down and packed though. But I don't want to go forward with writing the actual dialogue until I have my mythos completed. I want its to be consise and abscent any inconsistencies.


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## crazymtf (Nov 30, 2013)

Hey guys, my new short story is up to buy RIGHT now! (It's 99 Cents) Go pick it up now! You buy it on Amazon.com and it can transfer to kindle/ipads/ipods/tablets/phones and even PC. ENJOY GUYS and make sure to leave a review once done!


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 2, 2013)

Over my Thanksgiving break, since everyone left, I wrote about 5,000-8,000 words over the break. Shit was awesome. But now I have to go an fix a whole bunch of things now in previous chapters because I said some things the new chapters that contradict what I said is previous chapters. 
Writing's hard ( -____-) I love it, but it's hard.


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## crazymtf (Dec 3, 2013)

^That's probably my major issue as well. That, and dropping wrong names at spots. It's why I have two proof-readers and I re-read it twice haha.


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 3, 2013)

So I'm now on Wikipedia looking at literary techniques and I'm surprised I've never heard of some these things. I'm doing a lot if them like the "false protagonist", "red herring", "Deus ex machina", etc.


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## Elise (Dec 11, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> So I'm now on Wikipedia looking at literary techniques and I'm surprised I've never heard of some these things. I'm doing a lot if them like the "false protagonist", "red herring", "Deus ex machina", etc.




the latter two are things i'm still weening myself off of. they're not really techniques i want to keep with me as i continue writing but the innate urge to just _do them_ is near-constant, haha. constant revision and self-consciousness is really helping me shake habits i dislike and getting me more where i want to be (until i decide to change again i guess).


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## kazuri (Dec 11, 2013)

Nothing wrong with a red herring in the right situation, so long as you don't make it terribly obvious.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2013)

I'm ten chapters / about 30,000 words into my latest project.  I'm pretty much still introducing things.  I meant this to be one of my simpler stories. I've been crazy creative over the past two months. Holy balls I've got this much and I've only been working on it since the 29th of last month. 

Anyway, I kind of worry that spending to long on groundwork. I have a HUUUUGE multilayered world with cavernous backstory, that type of thing.


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## Risyth (Dec 12, 2013)

Everyone's writing so much. I'm lucky to get a page a day.

I guess I'm just in one of those slumps....


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 12, 2013)

Hi guys, I did a summary of my book and wanted to know what you think:

_*The Four Worlds:* *A Beautiful World*_

1000 B.C.: The Crown of the Four Worlds: Whoever bears the Crown will become the King, or Queen, of the Four Worlds. Three thousand years ago, one of the Four Sovereigns, Cantorium, waged War on the Four Worlds while bearing the Crown after his brother, and predecessor, Stratorium died. 

	He was inevitably defeated by his siblings, the other two Sovereigns, and niece. The Crown was split into Thirteen Pieces and was placed into thirteen random human hosts in the Overworld.

	A.D. 1999: Melissa doesn’t know it yet, but she is the host of the Thirteen Piece to the Crown of the Four Worlds. She is taken into protection by a group called the Sons of Gaea located in the Stratoss District of the Middle World. There she learns she is being hunted down by the demon-witch Anetelia and must learn to control the Crown’s power or be sacrificed to the witch’s Beautiful World.



Lord Yu said:


> I'm ten chapters / about 30,000 words into my latest project.  I'm pretty much still introducing things.  I meant this to be one of my simpler stories. I've been crazy creative over the past two months. Holy balls I've got this much and I've only been working on it since the 29th of last month.
> 
> Anyway, I kind of worry that spending to long on groundwork. I have a HUUUUGE multilayered world with cavernous backstory, that type of thing.



Damn, son... I'm only 42,000 words in but it's 17 chapters long right now. Been doing a helluva lot of work on it since Thanksgiving.

 I've spent almost two years just simply thinking about the story, plot and characters in the book. This book was a lot shorter then, lol.



Risyth said:


> Everyone's writing so much. I'm lucky to get a page a day.
> 
> I guess I'm just in one of those slumps....



Aww, don't worry too much on how far you get. You'll get it done. As far as I know, you're just working at your own pace. Writing a book fast and in a hurry will make it lose its quality of story and writing.


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## Risyth (Dec 12, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> Aww, don't worry too much on how far you get. You'll get it done. As far as I know, you're just working at your own pace. Writing a book fast and in a hurry will make it lose its quality of story and writing.



Thanks, but I used to write much faster in one sitting and still get the good quality. I was told that the first time sitting through the writing is just about letting it all flow. Revisions would come later. But now that my grammar's been improving, I'm more conscientious about that and getting everything right on the first try, which slows me down.

Great synopsis from you, though. I'd read your story on that alone. In fact, it's a bit similar to mine, too. I hope you're doing your research.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> Hi guys, I did a summary of my book and wanted to know what you think:
> 
> _*The Four Worlds:* *A Beautiful World*_
> 
> ...



First thing that sticks out to me. Is it set on some kind of Earth? BC and AD stick out like sore thumb to me because they translate to Before Christ and Anno Domini meaning in the year of our Lord. and are marks of the Gregorian Calendar. If it's set in a fictional world unless there is Christianity and Latin I suggest nixing it and coming up with your own calendar markers. 

Second, the summary is kind of dry and I don't think a word like inevitably really belongs in a summary unless you explain before hand why that something is inevitable. 

Other than that I guess it's alright.


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 12, 2013)

Lord Yu said:


> First thing that sticks out to me. Is it set on some kind of Earth? BC and AD stick out like sore thumb to me because they translate to Before Christ and Anno Domini meaning in the year of our Lord. and are marks of the Gregorian Calendar. If it's set in a fictional world unless there is Christianity and Latin I suggest nixing it and coming up with your own calendar markers.



It's on an Earth similar to this one in a different universe. Everything, however, is the same according to humanity. All places and events are the same, but everything is not what it seems.



Lord Yu said:


> Second, the summary is kind of dry and I don't think a word like inevitably really belongs in a summary unless you explain before hand why that something is inevitable.
> 
> Other than that I guess it's alright.



How do you suggest I fix it then?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 14, 2013)

You might want to try and refine the story by just writing it, you really learn the most about the characters by just writing them and working them through problems. You're not going to really have everything figured out before you start writing normally and even if you do then it kind of shoots you in the foot because better ideas might come along and get passed by because you had a plan. 

Asking us usually won't really help too terribly much because we're not you, anything you write that we make up for you won't have your full heart in it and therefore won't be as good as if you really had your heart in it.


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## tari101190 (Dec 21, 2013)

Started a project recently. Am slowly building it up every day. Was doing a lot of plotting and research but now I've stared writing. I'm hoping to write at least like 500 words/1 page a day over 2014. Some days I do more than other days. Depends when I have time to myself really. Just wondering how you guys plan out when and how much you write a a time? At least roughly. I know some days you may write far more than you expect or less. But do you guys have self imposed aims/deadlines?


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 21, 2013)

I do what I can everyday and go with it


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2013)

I never set deadlines because I always break them.


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## tari101190 (Dec 21, 2013)

Okay so I am now thinking that realistic deadlines are good to keep you on track, but to not expect to stick too rigidly to it because writing is a creative process and you should only write when comfortably inspired.

Anyway. Also looking around for inspiration, even after plotting out everything. Was reading something about the Tolkien-verse and immediately rode my bike to the book store in the rain to buy the Silmarllion. It touched on some similar concepts I came up with (how the creation story/origin of the universe unfolds) so i wanted to read it.

I've scoured TV tropes for examples of tropes and the works I can see how they worked elsewhere. I feel it's important to be able to identity and know when you're writing an established literary trope. At least if you're aware you can try to do something different.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm on TV tropes all the time. I think the only thing I've deliberately done in my writing is avoided Tolkien stuff.  The dude wrote Lord of The Rings during WWII that's like 70 years ago. It's fucking time fantasy literature moved on.


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## Ino Yamanaka (Dec 22, 2013)

Anyone writing a post-apocalyptic story?


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## tari101190 (Dec 22, 2013)

No, but I'm writing a pre and mid apocalypse story. As in how the apocalypse comes about and what happens during. The story ends when the apocalypse ends, but I don't get into what happens after. But it is a clear pyrrhic victory. Nobody comes out with much of anything at the end of it all. The protags would rather survive permanently scarred in moderately crappy world, than live or die in an even crappier corrupted world.


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 22, 2013)

Ino Yamanaka said:


> Anyone writing a post-apocalyptic story?



In the future I am.


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## Ino Yamanaka (Dec 22, 2013)

I am too, how one happens, during, characters perspectives, and ending, to new beggining. I wish I could role-play about it


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## tari101190 (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm currently writing the short part just before it all 'happens'. Writing the same event from 4 different perspectives at the moment. It's interesting approach I've only tried once before, on a smaller scale. Some things happen in one guys story that aren't clear until you read the other parts. Hopefully it will read well in the end. The last part is really 'trippy' though.

Also changed 3/4 characters to girls just before started writing, and made 4/5 people non-white. The core archetypes are still there, which is what was most important though. But their genders and races are having an interesting impact on how I've written them so far, which is cool.

Just really want to finish this 4 part perspective thing so I can finally start on the 'war'.

Having trouble with some of the dialogue though.


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## Ino Yamanaka (Dec 22, 2013)

^ Yours sounds familiar to mine, but I have more 'fight to the death feel'


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 22, 2013)

Mine is about a group of people who are trying to go to Argentina to board the last ship into space after World War III. That's really all I have at the moment.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 22, 2013)

Ino Yamanaka said:


> Anyone writing a post-apocalyptic story?



My current story is kind of post apocalyptic but it was sort of a soft apocalypse and society is still alive but the centers of society have been knocked away. tHe world is on fire but some people live as if it weren't.


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 22, 2013)

Do you guys name your chapters? I do. I love it.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 22, 2013)

Usually, these days I just name documents without much thought for chapter names.


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## crazymtf (Dec 22, 2013)

I like making chapter names...but man...sometimes I forget if I used a title before haha. Especially in my series where they'll be 150 chapters =P


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## Lord Yu (Dec 22, 2013)

Even among all my drafts. I have yet to reuse a chapter name. I'm proud of my naming capabilities.


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## Risyth (Dec 23, 2013)

Good ol' chapter 1/2/3...


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## tari101190 (Dec 23, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> Mine is about a group of people who are trying to go to Argentina to board the last ship into space after World War III. That's really all I have at the moment.


This sounds really interesting. Reminds me of the film 2012 a bit, but don't let that put you off please. 

Anyway, I'm guessing your story starts after WW3 already ended? What caused the war? Or are the war's details not that relevant? That would be interesting. A story about ww3 survivors that didn't go over what the war was. It being a war is information enough technically. Unless the details are important to establish your world. It would be a cool exercise maybe to see if you could write it without ever mentioning exactly what the war was about. Focussing just on the characters. I could image the characters mentioning the war in a passing comment like it is common knowledge, without need to go into details.

I realized recently that you can't judge how good a story is based on the premise because what a story is about doesn't mean it will be told well. Also I heard someone say characters are most important because we follow them.

Which is why I think it's sometimes stupid when people maybe get rejected for things based on the premise alone. I'm sure If you gave the dumbest premise to the best writer in the world it would still end up being amazing. Or if you gave 5 different writers the same specific premise, all of their stories would sill be very different.


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## Malicious Friday (Dec 23, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> I like making chapter names...but man...sometimes I forget if I used a title before haha. Especially in my series where they'll be 150 chapters =P



Sometimes I do reprise chapters. Like one, I titled it "Hypothetical Insanity" and the one where it refers back to that chapter in a way, I called it "Definite Insanity". 



tari101190 said:


> This sounds really interesting. Reminds me of the film 2012 a bit, but don't let that put you off please.
> 
> Anyway, I'm guessing your story starts after WW3 already ended? What caused the war? Or are the war's details not that relevant? That would be interesting. A story about ww3 survivors that didn't go over what the war was. It being a war is information enough technically. Unless the details are important to establish your world. It would be a cool exercise maybe to see if you could write it without ever mentioning exactly what the war was about. Focusing just on the characters. I could image the characters mentioning the war in a passing comment like it is common knowledge, without need to go into details.
> 
> ...



Actually, I like that idea of not giving a background on the war. But if I were to give on, it will have to be about bioterrorism. In another book I have, there is a mysterious outbreak of zombies (a nanobot like virus that takes over the hosts mind and control it to how it sees fit) in Chicago and the US government performed a quarantine just in time before it became total Zombie Apocalypse like in the movies.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2013)

Someone asked about books about the end of the World, mine might end up including some stuff about it. But it's really about these characters trying to stop it and it spans multiple character groups and the like and should even explain how the end began. 



tari101190 said:


> This sounds really interesting. Reminds me of the film 2012 a bit, but don't let that put you off please.
> 
> Anyway, I'm guessing your story starts after WW3 already ended? What caused the war? Or are the war's details not that relevant? That would be interesting. A story about ww3 survivors that didn't go over what the war was. It being a war is information enough technically. Unless the details are important to establish your world. It would be a cool exercise maybe to see if you could write it without ever mentioning exactly what the war was about. Focussing just on the characters. I could image the characters mentioning the war in a passing comment like it is common knowledge, without need to go into details.
> 
> ...



The thing about 2012 was that if I remember correctly the event that caused the end of the world was well known about by world leaders. It allowed them time to build the big boats or whatever (I only read the synopsis). 

If your event isn't well known you're going to have to explain how Argentina got the the ability to launch a space ship and where the Hell it came from. Otherwise it might as well be alternate reality.



crazymtf said:


> I like making chapter names...but man...sometimes I forget if I used a title before haha. Especially in my series where they'll be 150 chapters =P



I used to do it but it seems like a waste of time at this point, I would spend all this time naming chapters and naming the book itself when what's most important is what happens in between the names.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 24, 2013)

I'm on the last part of my book and I don't know how to start it  I usually know what I want!


----------



## Risyth (Dec 24, 2013)

Start it with a *bang.*


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 25, 2013)

My short story is free for Christmas. ENJOY!


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 25, 2013)

I want a kindle for Christmas  

I'm cool with other stuff, but I want a kindle so I can buy you guy's books and see if I like them.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 25, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> My short story is free for Christmas. ENJOY!



Picking this up.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 25, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> I'm on the last part of my book and I don't know how to start it  I usually know what I want!



I almost always work on my stories sequentially. Maybe to my detriment.


----------



## crazymtf (Dec 25, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> I want a kindle for Christmas
> 
> I'm cool with other stuff, but I want a kindle so I can buy you guy's books and see if I like them.




You can download it on ipad, ipod, PC, Mac, and just about anything now days! 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Picking this up.



Thank you so much! 

I'm in top 10 now with horror short stories. Exciting


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 25, 2013)

So, I just gave thought to how Weeb my current story is. Most of the cast has Japanese names. Even though the first section took place in a country kind of based on India.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 25, 2013)

Lol, I have a book like that.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 25, 2013)

Part of the reason is I have a habit of the Fish out of water scenario. My characters tend to never be from where the story is set.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 25, 2013)

What do you mean?


And another thing, if there's one thing I am terrible at, beside having a limited vocabulary, it's endings. It's like I can never give a good ending to at least 80% of my stories.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 26, 2013)

I always have my endings in mind. I like to give them a good sense of finality for the main characters while leaving it a bit open ended for the supporting cast. It gives me a nice way to revisit the universe i created from a different angle.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 26, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> 
> And another thing, if there's one thing I am terrible at, beside having a limited vocabulary, it's endings. It's like I can never give a good ending to at least 80% of my stories.



Exactly as I said. I tend to write stories where the protagonist is coming to a new place from another. Maybe it's my subconscious. 

I practically never reach the ending.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 26, 2013)

Maybe you could just skip ahead and write how you imagine how itll end.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 26, 2013)

Lord Yu said:


> Exactly as I said. I tend to write stories where the protagonist is coming to a new place from another. Maybe it's my subconscious.



Isn't that most stories where the protagonist is taken out of his/her place of comfort and is dropped into an unknown place?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 26, 2013)

Thats exactly what he means...


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 26, 2013)

Thought he meant something different...


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 26, 2013)

Im wondering if i should share my novel series idea in this thread or just make an entirely new thread...


----------



## kluang (Dec 26, 2013)

My idea of a novel has always been

heavy fantasy with magic and stuff

12 weapon forged by the gods with criteria almost the same as their mythos, like excalibur, sun wukong staff

I even drawn a map for that world.  more like a sketch then a map.

I'm really terrible at fight scene


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 26, 2013)

Lol thats actually exactly how i imagined the very very very first draft of my story. But now its evolved into something much more epic and deep.

I do agree that writing fight scenes is a bit difficult, but as practice i like to watch fights in anime like Ichigo vs. Byakuya or Luffy vs Lucci and to try to write everything i see in the most effecient way possible


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 26, 2013)

~Avant~ said:


> Im wondering if i should share my novel series idea in this thread or just make an entirely new thread...



In here, outside the this thread no one will read it.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 27, 2013)

That is very true.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 27, 2013)

My laptop crashed and i really want to go in depth about my story. Fml


----------



## Risyth (Dec 27, 2013)

Why does everyone have so much trouble with fighting scenes?

Anyway, Google Docs, Dropbox...it's all good. No need to pay to cloud your documents.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 27, 2013)

I don't have trouble with fight scenes... 

Why are they hard for some of you?


----------



## Risyth (Dec 27, 2013)

Hmm...maybe they're in 1st person? That's harder than 3rd person, I guess.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 27, 2013)

First person has always been easiest for me. Ive been in plenty of fights myself, so writing it through first person feels easy and comfortable


----------



## Risyth (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm curious: How do you go about the protagonist describing their pain?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 27, 2013)

Thats hard to explain without typing up an actual example.


----------



## Risyth (Dec 27, 2013)

If you don't mind. I'd like to be learned.

I mean, I've done it and seen it done well. But there are always more ways it can be done.


----------



## tari101190 (Dec 27, 2013)

Imagine you are the one going through the pain and just write what you're thinking feeling. Note form is fine. Approach it like a diary entry. Just trying to get the thoughts and feelings out, not worrying about writing properly. Approach more like casual poetry.

And then after that translate and rewrite what you've written into the correct format.

Or find an example from a film, tv, book, comic or whatever and copy it, and rewrite it and manipulate it to fit what you want. Then keep rewriting it.

Or just write it out as a very basic simple sentence, and just keep elaborating and expanding it.

You can't really ask how to write something this specific. You need to just do it yourself and keep fixing it. There shouldn't be a technical answer to 'how to write pain'. It's a personal artistic thing that you must come up with yourself. You wouldn't ask someone 'how to paint pain' or 'how do I make a film about pain'.


----------



## Risyth (Dec 27, 2013)

Oh, I've done it before and I think I can do it well enough. I just want to see what someone else has come up with.


----------



## tari101190 (Dec 27, 2013)

Oh okay. So you want someone else to write something to show you? I'll try do something soon maybe.

I'm writing something now where a couple of people are driven a little mad/crazy after an 'event'. Like PTSD-ish. If that counts as pain I'll show you that.

It's a mental pain rather than physical pain I mean.


----------



## Risyth (Dec 27, 2013)

Is it in 1st person? I'm able to do both styles but find the 3rd person perspective much easier. I could explain why better if I didn't have a headache. Maybe there's a better way to write the 1st person style; if you're willing to show me, that'd be nice.


----------



## tari101190 (Dec 27, 2013)

Yeah mine is in 1st person. I would assume I would find 1st person easier personally. I'll probably have something by tomorrow. It's 11:30pm for me now so doubtful I'll have anything anytime soon.

I'm gonna do the approach like it's happening to me in diary form and re-appropriate that for my story. The story is 1st person though.

I'll try out a 3rd person just to compare though. I'm doing 3 or 4 different perspectives too.


----------



## Risyth (Dec 27, 2013)

3 to 4? What...are they, exactly?

But, yeah, that sounds interesting. Matteru yo, thanks. Perhaps it'll help me in my scenes to see what you've come up with.


----------



## tari101190 (Dec 27, 2013)

3-4 characters witness something that drives them slightly insane and need to cope with what they've seen and what the implications are. It's traumatic in different ways for each of them. One is physically injured too. Don't want to get into details too much. I'll see what I come up with.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 28, 2013)

Hey guys, I'm in dire need of help right now: 

Okay, so I have Melissa, the main protagonist, and Jackson, another protagonist, go out on a "date". (Jackson thinks it's a date, Melissa doesn't.) I want a vampire named Silvano to come in and accidentally meet Melissa and take her away from Jackson while he's somewhere else. The problem is that I don't know where Melissa and the vampire should bump into each other. 

Help? I really want to get this chapter started.

I was thinking that they could go to a party, but for what? In the current events, she has no reason to go to a party. And a party is all I have. Jackson and Melissa can't go to Kinhu (a town in the book) because they burned it down.


----------



## Cjones (Dec 28, 2013)

Anybody write anything somewhat akin to religion? I'm planning out a story on Archangels, but I don't want it to come off as to preachy or even super religious. 

Also the fact I want to add a few things. like making Santa an angel in some form.



Malicious Friday said:


> Hey guys, I'm in dire need of help right now:
> 
> Okay, so I have Melissa, the main protagonist, and Jackson, another protagonist, go out on a "date". (Jackson thinks it's a date, Melissa doesn't.) I want a vampire named Silvano to come in and accidentally meet Melissa and take her away from Jackson while he's somewhere else. The problem is that I don't know where Melissa and the vampire should bump into each other.
> 
> ...



How about a casual stroll for Melissa? It be her contemplating by herself or walking through the charred remains of the city.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 28, 2013)

I'm gonna have her be taken away by vampires. 

But thanks anyway


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

@cjones

I actuallu use both Angels and Devas in my story. I found that the best way to avoid all the religious subtext is to have a sort of jesus archetype in the story. 

For example in my story, the progenitors of both the angels and devas, are a race of creatures called Sephiroths. The name of the three Sephiroth are Abaddon, Michael, and Lucifer. In an ancient war Abaddon was slain, and from his death the Angels amd Devas were born.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 28, 2013)

People will totally shout you got that Sephiroth shit from FF7! completely ignorant of Gnosticism.  Are you taking a Gnostic view?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

Yeah i was thinking of just spelling it as Sefirot.

Im using a bunch of different views, gnostisicm, kabbala, thelema, etc. Ive done years of research on every denominatiob of the abrahamic religions aswell as buddhism. Ive gone indepth in my research on nearly every ancient religion and myth the world has to offer.

The mythos i have constructed is a sort of amalgam of all of it. And it truly works, in a way that wpnt overwhelm the reader. h


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 28, 2013)

Malicious Friday said:


> Okay, so I have Melissa, the main protagonist, and Jackson, another protagonist, go out on a "date". (Jackson thinks it's a date, Melissa doesn't.) I want a vampire named Silvano to come in and accidentally meet Melissa and take her away from Jackson while he's somewhere else. The problem is that I don't know where Melissa and the vampire should bump into each other.


Silvano passes by Melissa waiting in a bathroom line.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 28, 2013)

~Avant~ said:


> Yeah i was thinking of just spelling it as Sefirot.
> 
> Im using a bunch of different views, gnostisicm, kabbala, thelema, etc. Ive done years of research on every denominatiob of the abrahamic religions aswell as buddhism. Ive gone indepth in my research on nearly every ancient religion and myth the world has to offer.
> 
> The mythos i have constructed is a sort of amalgam of all of it. And it truly works, in a way that wont overwhelm the reader. h



Why are there only three Sefira then? Sorry if I sound picky but as an anime geek I see too many religious names thrown around at random and completely divorced from their meaning. Shouldn't there at least be one to match each point on the tree? Otherwise it would feel pointless to call them Sefirot. Again sorry, but I'm more sensitive to the use of Gnosticism since I'm such a huge Xenogears fan and I'm also currently playing Tales of the Abyss which also uses Gnostic symbolism. 

In my writing I tend to take a Lovecraftian view of divinity.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

Welll heres my take on it in its entirety.

Ein Sof is the original one true God. Upon creating nirvana Ein Sof splits himself into three personas, Adonayn Kannon, and Angra Mainyu. Their existence is a direct explaination for why all matter exists with either a positive, neutral, or negative charge. Adonay is positive, the God of Justice and order, Kannon is neutral, the Goddess of compassion, and Angra Mainyu is negative, the God of destruction and chaos.

Their first act is to create the 9. The first beings in existence with actual bodies, the 3 Sefirots, the 3 Mandala, and the 3 Druaga.

The Sefirots are meant to be a reimagining in my story, being a more allegorical interpretation of their actual kabbalah counterparts.


----------



## ctype (Dec 28, 2013)

...actually, I'm just going to shy away....


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 28, 2013)

Aww, but why  

Tell us what you're gonna say :33 We're all open-minded people


----------



## Cjones (Dec 28, 2013)

~Avant~ said:


> @cjones
> 
> I actuallu use both Angels and Devas in my story. I found that the best way to avoid all the religious subtext is to have a sort of jesus archetype in the story.
> 
> For example in my story, the progenitors of both the angels and devas, are a race of creatures called Sephiroths. The name of the three Sephiroth are Abaddon, Michael, and Lucifer. In an ancient war Abaddon was slain, and from his death the Angels amd Devas were born.



 That's...pretty awesome. 

I had thrown around some ideas like that, but the one I'm keen on now (very rough draft) is that everything originated from God. The Archangel Micheal, the one closes to god, has always been the vessel for the spirit of god (pretty much like avatar). A bit of time before the story actually starts, Micheal is suppose to receive God's spirit on Easter but is ambushed by Lucifer and his elite and pretty much dominated. To compensate for the injuries sustained Micheal's power seeps out, is absorbed by Lucifer and she reverts into a mere child losing everything in the process including her memories. 

Eventually she's found by Sameal, angel of death, and is taken care of on earth. Because of this heaven is forced to hold God is suspended animation, which begins to take a toll on the humans as his presence slowly begins to fades and prayers go unanswered.

That's a pretty rough draft of the idea I have at the moment. The only thing I really got is pretty much the characters and certain key parts of the story.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

Thats a real interesting interpretation

Though the Lucifer becoming an amnesiatic child instantly reminded me of Kurohime. But id like to see where you go with it.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 28, 2013)

Avant, is your set based of your book or vice versa?


----------



## Risyth (Dec 28, 2013)

^What about yours?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

My set is from the manga Bastard!! Though some of my stuff was inspired by it.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 28, 2013)

I thought you were calling me a bastard at first  

But okay.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

Lmfao it happens.

Damn talking about some of the concepts of my novel...i wish my laptop wasnt destroyed. Writing from my phone is getting annoying


----------



## Risyth (Dec 28, 2013)

~Avant~ said:


> Lmfao it happens.
> 
> Damn talking about some of the concepts of my novel...i wish my laptop wasnt destroyed. Writing from my phone is getting annoying


Ah, that's what you mean. 

Well...at least your stuff is saved, right?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

Not even at all ;_;

I remember all of it thankfully, and i actually jot down some of the finer details on paper. But basically i have to start back from the ground up.

The universe ive constructed is in the same league in expansiveness as probably Marvel or To Aru Majutsu no Index. Its fucking huge, with every detail pain stackingly thought up, researched, and double drafted.

I really think that in the long run, once its published itll be up their with Tolkiens works.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 28, 2013)

That's why flashdrive were invented


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 28, 2013)

I knnnoowww but i completely spaced out on it.

Now i leave to marine corp bootcamp in february, so i dont think ill be able to find the time to write anything at all. I just hope it all sticks with me.


----------



## kazuri (Dec 28, 2013)

you could always buy a digital voice recorder, or im sure theres some app for that. Dont try to talk the whole story, but record whatever thoughts and ideas you might forget.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 29, 2013)

I tend to always have at least two back ups. I have my current project backed up on google docs.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 29, 2013)

You guys arent making me feel any better...

EDIT: Soooooo fucking pissed, i just spent three hours typing on the damn internet explorer app on my xbox a brief synopsis of my story and the fucking forum logs me out. Their is no copy and paste option and i had to fucking type by moving the cursor letter for fucking letter. FUCK YOU NF!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 29, 2013)

Lets try this again. Ok I've titled my story The Grimoire Memory

My main character is a 500 year old Kresnik named Aiden Sinclair. After he awakens in an underground chamber mysteriously, his senses dulled and his body in a weakened state, he manages to stumble out into the outside world...right in the middle of Times Square in New York City, during rush hour.

In typical New Yorker fashion, no one pays him any mind and simply dismisses him, after all a guy who looks like he just walked off the set of a Conan the Barbarian movie, would not be the strangest thing one sees. Aideb, taking a moment to adjust his senses to all the noise and bright lights, as well as the smells, pauses unknowingly right in the middle of the street. This garners the attention of a NYPD beat cop, who judges by Aidens demeanor that he is most likely intoxicated.

While the cop yells out to Aiden, a taxi cab directly in front of him is honkibg his horn as obnoxiously as he can to get Aiden to move out of his way. Aiden, annoyed and looking to silence whatever the hell that noise was, reached out and grabbed the cab with a single arm and as casually as skipping a stone on a pond, he flips the cab over an entire block away. Now all eyes and camera phones are fixed squarely on Aiden.

The cop, after freezing for a fraction of a second in pure terror and disbelief, reaches for his pistol, but before he can draw it, Aiden leaps into the air in an impossible high jump and completely disappears into the New York skyline leaving behind a bewildered cop and hundred of on lookers.

On top of one of Manhattans towering buildings, Aiden finally manages to regain control over his senses managing to embrace the fantastic landscape of lights stretched out before him. But Aiden doesnt get much time to marvel over the sight as two Espers(psychics), a man and a woman dressed in high society fashion, approach him. The man, Axel Veritas, reffers to Aideb as "The Bogeyman" and after a skirmish with Axel and Felicity, the female Esper, that end with the complete desolation of a baseball field in Central Park, Aiden forms an uneasy alliance with the pair, with both parties deciding they stood more to gain by using each other.

Thus begins phase one of my story, which splits into a double narrative one taking place in the present and the other in Aidens past.

In the present we learn about the political war bubbling up on the surface between the so called Illuminati (they named themselves such knowing full well the connotation it would hold and as a declartion against the president). The Illuminati while appearing as nothing more as a union of bankers and business men using the name Illuminati to sell papers, are infact an organization that has long held power over the U.S. government behind the scenes - that is until its latest President broke free of their Yoke.

The president, David Godfrey, in response to the illuminati titled his cabinet and his secret service as the Templars. All this is happening in the background of the actual storyline.

The narrative in the present will follow Aiden, Axel, and Felicity, and introduce us to all of the organizations in power behind the curtains and their agendas. To list a few

The Apostles and the Order of Enoch
The Slayers and the Shinzoku Alliance
The Shamans and the League of Orion
The Alchemists and the Sons of Alamut
The Espers and the Algernon Syndicate
The Akumas and the Mazoku Dynasty
The Magi and the Sorority of Camlann

The narrative in the past will teach us about Aidens past as well as the origins of many the organizations in power in the present.

We will learn about the massacre of Aidens family, his journey to feudal Japan, the revelation of his cursed blood, his love affair with a half japanese half european geisha by the name of Amelia Amakusa. We will learn of his part in the Shimabara Rebellion where Japanese Christians, foreigners, and ronins fought against the Tokugawa Shogunate and where Aidrn clashed swords with the legendary swordsman Miyamoto Musashi. We will learn of Amelia's death and Aidens subsequent fall to the darkside in order to revive her, all while being manipulated by the very person he calls his mentor who unknown to Aiden was responsible for the massacre of his family.

Both these narratives will ultimately work to uncover the mystery behind the so called "Grimoire Memory". Once thats done, phase 2 will begin.


----------



## Risyth (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear about the lot of back luck you've been having lately.

...wow, I actually thought of replying with a Crime and Punishment quote. If it makes you feel any better, I'm in a bit of a rut myself. I'm probably going to rest before continuing.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 29, 2013)

Im better now. I retyped my post on my phone. My trusty phone.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 29, 2013)

Some of you probably need this more than others, but: 



> Telling people who don’t read science fiction and fantasy that I write it is still awkward. My mom used to tell people I wrote ‘‘novels like Stephen King,’’ even though I can’t watch a movie more supernaturally terrifyFing than Ghostbusters without enduring fierce nightmares, insomnia, and night sweats. I prefer corporeal, knife-wielding villains I can hit in the face.
> 
> But as a kid, I let it slide. I didn’t want the attention anyway. I felt incredibly embarrassed that I was writing about fake rebellions in made-up countries while my friends were studying to be architects. They were going to build real, adult things. I was going to write about trolls’ hair and dragons’ gold.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 30, 2013)

Free Kindle book on writing time management!


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 30, 2013)

~Avant~ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is actually something I would enjoy reading. 

But the only thing I don't like is when Kresnik steps into modern day New York City. That's been done a lot. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Some of you probably need this more than others, but:



That's what I'm going through right now.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 30, 2013)

I havent seen it been done a lot. I mean i know plenty of series take place in New York, but seeing as i live on the upper east side, i felt like writing about a place i know would allow for better writing emersion


----------



## Anarchist64 (Dec 30, 2013)

working on a short story about a young american going to syria to interview rebels and gets trapped in the middle of the civil war.
So far the character is a 19 year old boy who wants to work for CNN but has no prior experience. He belives that if he gets interiviews from the civil war it will give him the credibility he needs. 
Im stuck trying to figure out how he gets to Syria.
Im starting to think that i should have him already be a journalist that is sent over buy CNN or FOX


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 30, 2013)

University connections and/or family money. Story sounds like a really dumb idea but God knows I can imagine a scenario where someone would try that.  As I said, they'd have to be very connected to slip through blockades. Maybe make them Russian-American or Chinese American or of Course Syrian American. I don't see anyone getting into Syria without connections to Syria, Russia, or China.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 31, 2013)

Anyone care to help me create a power/ability system for the Shamans in my story. As far as powers and abilities I've been having trouble creating a system for them for a long time. They the only ones missing one.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Dec 31, 2013)

I'll help :33


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks man


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 31, 2013)

Cjones said:


> I didn't actually need a kindle to download and read. Wonder if I can put this on my tablet in someway.



The Kindle App should work. At least on Android tablets. 


~Avant~ said:


> You guys arent making me feel any better...
> 
> EDIT: Soooooo fucking pissed, i just spent three hours typing on the damn internet explorer app on my xbox a brief synopsis of my story and the fucking forum logs me out. Their is no copy and paste option and i had to fucking type by moving the cursor letter for fucking letter. FUCK YOU NF!!!!!!!!!!!!!



That's not really the forum's fault. You can't sit on a page on here for more than like fifteen minutes unless the password is saved. Otherwise it will log you out. It's kind of silly to type that way over a video game browser too.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Dec 31, 2013)

Well its what was available to me. And i had the overwhelming urge to share.


----------



## crazymtf (Jan 1, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Some of you probably need this more than others, but:



Great read. Anytime I tell someone about my story I say it with pride. It might sound geeky/nerdy but I bet half the people I tell couldn't create an entire world the way I did in my mind and put it on paper. SO I'm damn proud, even if it sounds cheesy to them


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm only awkward about the weeaboo stuff in my story.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2014)

I need to find out where to get Attack on Titan for the Kindle.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2014)

You can do that?!


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> You can do that?!



I posted in the wrong thread. But yeah, I have comic books on my Kindle and they worked on my Kindle Paper White too, it would be pretty shitty if they didn't.

I also use my Kindle to read my own shit.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2014)




----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2014)

This is probably the most expensive copy of my book anyone will ever have.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2014)

I need to do something like that when I thoroughly proofread it myself. Putting it in a three-ringed binder seem so unprofessional to me. 


So for me in the writing world, I have the tendency to put off my writing for few days and then go at it like I just had an epiphany. Happening to me right now actually. does anyone else have those kind of moments?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I need to do something like that when I thoroughly proofread it myself. Putting it in a three-ringed binder seem so unprofessional to me.
> 
> 
> So for me in the writing world, I have the tendency to put off my writing for few days and then go at it like I just had an epiphany. Happening to me right now actually. does anyone else have those kind of moments?



If I am writing and I put it off like that I usually can't get back into what I was doing so easily. I need to polish some off tonight before I heard to bed.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2014)

No New Years party for you?


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm writing a lot today. My protagonist has suddenly become more of an Anti-Hero than I anticipated.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> No New Years party for you?



I don't do New Years really. I think it's kind of stupid.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm writing a lot today. My protagonist has suddenly become more of an Anti-Hero than I anticipated.



My main character was already an anti-hero. Too bad she's gonna die 

On another note, all of the villains I have, save for a select few, aren't really evil. They're either misunderstood or just have their morals in the wrong places. I don't like truly evil characters because I want to stay away from the good vs evil, good must always win stuff...



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't do New Years really. I think it's kind of stupid.



I think we should really celebrate every decade. Doing it every year gets kind of redundant...

IF I EVER BEEN TO ONE


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## Lord Yu (Jan 1, 2014)

My villain in this piece is utterly vile and disgusting. She's a complete monster. My heroine, is decent for the most part but has sort of skewed view of killing.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2014)

And that's another reason why I don't really like villains. Why do they have to look evil to be evil?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> And that's another reason why I don't really like villains. Why do they have to look evil to be evil?



Lucifer as a villain is usually said to look good. 

I mean, they based his likeness from the DC comics on Bowie.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 1, 2014)

Now that's what I like.

Shiiit... one of my characters looks somewhat like that. Except make him black, give him a blue suit, red tie, keep the golden wings and eyes and you've got yourself Contagious Sunday.


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## Risyth (Jan 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> And that's another reason why I don't really like villains. Why do they have to look evil to be evil?



That's why villains don't have to be one-layered. In fact, the best ones usually aren't.


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## Tyrael (Jan 2, 2014)

I actually like a properly evil villain. Someone irredeemably and almost preternaturally evil. There's certainly a place for them in storytelling.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 2, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> I actually like a properly evil villain. Someone irredeemably and almost preternaturally evil. There's certainly a place for them in storytelling.



Well they can be pretty evil and not look ugly or whatever. In fact, I think the attractive villain is more common now than the other way around. When I think about fantasy most of the time the villain is meant to be attractive on some level.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 2, 2014)

Thats why I like villains who look completely docile and gentle, and peform terrible acts of evil. And once theyre revealed to be the monsters they truly are, that they can choose to take their naturally monsterous form. The best example of this that comes to my mind is Aji Tae from Shin Angyo Onshi.

He had many layers to him, but it was because he had good reasons for his actions or that he had redeeming qualities, it was simply because he was a magnificently cunning bastard. Its this type of formula that I've chosen for the main Villain in my own story.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> And that's another reason why I don't really like villains. Why do they have to look evil to be evil?



My villain doesn't really look evil. Except maybe her weird eyes. She's the eponymous Gear Eyed Girl.  Other than that she just looks like a teenage girl.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 2, 2014)

Whats your story about Yu?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2014)

The Gear Eyed Girl: Alatatsue (Real name Asa Cassidy) lives peacefully on the Island of Raogorna.  Eleven years ago her father left her on the island while he went off in search of her missing mother. Not long after her sixteenth birthday (18 in Earth years) two mysterious men come to the island and kidnap her. They take her to another island to transport her. There she is contacted by a mysterious voice. The voice helps her escape her captors and leads her to a sword. 

The sword turns out to be her father imprisoned and cursed not long after he left her. Now Alatatsue must travel the world to lift the curse on her father.


That's sort of a barebones summary of the initial concept. The title comes from Alatatsue's aunt, Ayu, the woman who laid the curse. Ayu, the self proclaimed Saint of Lust is a powerful sorceress with mysterious connections. She has turning gears in her eyes.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 2, 2014)

Sounds like nothing i've ever read before, and yet some how familiar. Wait so in your world 18 human years happens in a short amount of time?

Will Earth eventually come into play later on in the story to illustrate that?

I like that title "Saint of Lust" it makes me wonder if theirs a Saint for the other Sins.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2014)

The year on that world is 55 days longer. Earth does come into play at least tangentially. I'm not entirely sure how much it will come in on this story yet. It played a bigger role in the previous story. 

I don't have Saints for any of the other sins. The seven deadly sins isn't even a thing in my story's world. It's just a self given title.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 2, 2014)

Is your prevjous story connected to this one?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes, I've been working another story for ages. The Doll and The Madman, The Gear Eyed Girl is the sequel. I decided The Gear Eyed Girl would be easier to finish and market. So I decided to finish that first while I realign the previous tale. The Gear Eyed Girl is more straightforward in terms of structure. So far I'm much more productive on it than with its predecessor and also more coherent.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 2, 2014)

Sounds like a really interesting read.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 3, 2014)

I've been thinking about this for a while and can't come up with a decent but complex way to travel:

The Four Worlds are the Worlds that make up earth as a whole: the Heavenly World, the Overworld, the Middle World and the Underworld. There are naturally formed portals located in various places in the Four Worlds, them usually being the locations of ancient, mysterious and mystical sites in the Overworld (i.e. the Great Pyramids of Giza, Stonehenge, the Easter Island Heads, the Bermuda Triangle points, etc.),which is the World we humans reside in . I can't seem to come up with a way to travel between the Four Worlds artificially. I have these things called crystal byways that can transport a person wherever in the World they are currently in by means of one-way portals--although, you have to think of the exact place and location you want to go or you'll end up someplace undesirable--but to travel through the Worlds without the portals that are natural... and this is where I get stumped... Help please?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while and can't come up with a decent but complex way to travel:
> 
> The Four Worlds are the Worlds that make up earth as a whole: the Heavenly World, the Overworld, the Middle World and the Underworld. There are naturally formed portals located in various places in the Four Worlds, them usually being the locations of ancient, mysterious and mystical sites in the Overworld (i.e. the Great Pyramids of Giza, Stonehenge, the Easter Island Heads, the Bermuda Triangle points, etc.),which is the World we humans reside in . I can't seem to come up with a way to travel between the Four Worlds artificially. I have these things called crystal byways that can transport a person wherever in the World they are currently in by means of one-way portals--although, you have to think of the exact place and location you want to go or you'll end up someplace undesirable--but to travel through the Worlds without the portals that are natural... and this is where I get stumped... Help please?



Your cosmology is kind of hard for us to play around with because it will have some trickle down effects on the things in your story. If I were to go into Harry Potter and make it so that every Wizard could only use a spell a number of times a day that they had memorized it and after that number of stored times they forgot it until they studied again for eight hours (the way it works in Dungeons and Dragons) that would radically change everything about all seven books and the story within. 

To have someone who isn't involved in the whole writing process changing your rules and messing with stuff is kind of hard without them messing up something or making you have to change something. 

I know in my own world I have the Tower of Babel as a travel point between Heaven and Hell and Earth. The Tower goes down and up and the down leads to Hell, up to Heaven. But when I say up I mean up into outer space nearly. It's huge. 

I don't have any rules other than that about it and I try my best not to mess with over thinking some of this stuff because it's kind of thing that the author should have an idea of, but that you really don't have to tell the reader because a lot of the time it does nothing to enhance the story for them to know.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 3, 2014)

It's really no rule to it except there are no other means of travel except by manufactured or natural portals. All I really need is some kind of help to develop it because the manufactured portals play a huge part in book two.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2014)

I worked on redoing the opening of the novel. 



> Helena, Texas 1867
> 
> Pearle hefted the pickax out of the splintered hole in the coffin lid. The unreliable lantern light painted the apples of her cheeks as they swelled to accommodate her smile. ?You will be rewarded handsomely for this.?
> 
> ...


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## Risyth (Jan 3, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while and can't come up with a decent but complex way to travel:
> 
> The Four Worlds are the Worlds that make up earth as a whole: the Heavenly World, the Overworld, the Middle World and the Underworld. There are naturally formed portals located in various places in the Four Worlds, them usually being the locations of ancient, mysterious and mystical sites in the Overworld (i.e. the Great Pyramids of Giza, Stonehenge, the Easter Island Heads, the Bermuda Triangle points, etc.),which is the World we humans reside in . I can't seem to come up with a way to travel between the Four Worlds artificially. I have these things called crystal byways that can transport a person wherever in the World they are currently in by means of one-way portals--although, you have to think of the exact place and location you want to go or you'll end up someplace undesirable--*but to travel through the Worlds without the portals that are natural.*.. and this is where I get stumped... Help please?



Could you rephrase this?


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## Tyrael (Jan 3, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> It's really no rule to it except there are no other means of travel except by manufactured or natural portals. All I really need is some kind of help to develop it because the manufactured portals play a huge part in book two.



What are the main themes and ideas that relate to your novel? My first instinct is generally to tie it to that.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 3, 2014)

Maybe something like the Gummi ships from Kingdom Hearts


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## crazymtf (Jan 5, 2014)

Second book is out if anyone wants to check it out. It's the second book in my five book series! 

Paperback Edition - 

Kindle Edition - 

Createspace Edition (Owned by Amazon) - 


Also follow my stuff on facebook. Just have to click LIKE! =D 
-


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## Cjones (Jan 5, 2014)

So I finally got the time to start profiling some of my characters for my dealing with the Archangels. I'm thinking of basing the demons off of some warped version of the angel hierarchy or on the seven deadly sins.It might be the former. 

Though first of the Archangels I'm working is Raphael who, despite being the healer, is even regarded among all of hell as an atrocious being on the field of battle. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Your cosmology is kind of hard for us to play around with because it will have some trickle down effects on the things in your story. If I were to go into Harry Potter and make it so that every Wizard could only use a spell a number of times a day that they had memorized it and after that number of stored times they forgot it until they studied again for eight hours (the way it works in Dungeons and Dragons) that would radically change everything about all seven books and the story within.
> 
> To have someone who isn't involved in the whole writing process changing your rules and messing with stuff is kind of hard without them messing up something or making you have to change something.
> 
> ...



I put this exact same idea in mine. Tower of Babel is the transport system for the  humans/creatures of earth to invade Heaven at a certain point.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 5, 2014)

I tried doing the Hell version of the angel Hierarchy for my story, but i couldnt quite find appropriate terms or names for each class


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## Cjones (Jan 5, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I tried doing the Hell version of the angel Hierarchy for my story, but i couldnt quite find appropriate terms or names for each class



My friend mentioned to me the  Pseudo-Dionysian hierarchies. Where the demons where once a form of angel. 

Such as: Beelzebub (IIRC) was a  Seraphim, below Lucifer or Astaroth was a Throne(?). I can't quite remember off the top of my head.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 5, 2014)

I treat Hell is far less organized and chaotic.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 5, 2014)

I kind of remember Hell having it's own hierarchy of demons. I don't think I even have a Hell in my story. There is a kind of  a concept of it but no actual place.

Anyway, I'm learning some things about Indian Martial Arts.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 5, 2014)

Im with CTK on this.

Hell I've gone as far as to avoid naming most of the Angel classes aside from the Seraphim and Dominions, just so i wont have to do a comparative hierarchy for the Devas


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 5, 2014)

What's the image from your signature from, Yu ?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 5, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Im with CTK on this.
> 
> Hell I've gone as far as to avoid naming most of the Angel classes aside from the Seraphim and Dominions, just so i wont have to do a comparative hierarchy for the Devas



I don't really worry over most of them except for the Arch Angels and the Horsemen, there's so many other things going on I never really thought about the lower echelons of the organization. I don't really use very much of the angel characters, they're background and most of them tend to be cruel. They don't view human life as important because life is temporary, if you're killed in the crossfire it's no big deal. The good go to Heaven and the bad burn.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 5, 2014)

His sig is the cover to Tyler the Creators Wolf Album

Mine are similar but, the majority are a bit more sympathetic to humanity, they just follow the orders that the "Tribunals" dish out, Metatron is the head angel and he follows them loyally, his disdain for humanity being the most evident.


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## Cjones (Jan 5, 2014)

The angels is mine treat the humans graciously and the lower rank often time wonder why they can't do more for them, but ultimately the higher ups aren't above treating them as sacrificial lambs. They'll have an entire village or so massacred and burned down in order  to send a human down a set path to make the world grander. 

Devils really give no fuk about nothing except what Lucifer wants. The only devil who probably cares the most about humans is Mother Harlot but you know, whore.

I might try a way to cast doubt on who is actually evil. Angels/Devils/Humans.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 6, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What's the image from your signature from, Yu ?



Just a simple image parody of one of Tyler the Creator's album covers.

So far I've been sticking to non Judeo-Christian spiritualism. A lot of my cosmology is  either eastern or preChristian European.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 6, 2014)

How does that cosmology work exactly?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 6, 2014)

I try my hardest to do just the opposite and use only Christianity with some slight Muslim influence.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 6, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> How does that cosmology work exactly?



To be honest, I did take some of my inspiration for my universal level stuff from Gnosticism. The whole Demiurge deal. Though my greater divinity is mindless and essentially chaos. 

To be specific.  my world was created by the God of The Moon, Avardiche with power stolen from Amararischi. In that primordial dark there were two forces. Avardiche and the watcher that was The Hand of Amararischi. The Hand of Amararischi is both partner and antagonist to Avarde. The role has changed meaning over and over as the cycles of eons turned.  Eventually the Hand of Amararischi became Ahevanyuts, he who slew Avardiche in pursuit of absolute knowledge. His descendants became the house of Auravelius who's empire shaped the world for thousands of years. 

Ah, I gave you an origin story. My cosmology is more complex. There are the five elemental races of Deyul and there are many spirits beyond them. I don't think I've properly created a grand organization system yet.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 7, 2014)

Regardless it sounds very interesting. Ive never really read anything like it.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 8, 2014)

Almost done with my book  

I have like... 4-5 chapters left!


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## Lord Yu (Jan 8, 2014)

I don't even know if my first book is over yet. This is such a long ass story. I just had to make nine the number of plot coupons.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 9, 2014)

I want to read it once its done.

Shit I'm with you Yu. I'm still hammering down all the final details in my thread. I plan to do a post for each race/class. Then go in depth behind the cosmology, possibly go in depth behind the mythos, and then write the plot overviews for my books, as a guide for when I start writing the dialogue and what not


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## Lord Yu (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm usually very subtle with my world stuff.  I tend to focus a lot more on my characters and plot and leave the background details in the background. I often wander if it makes it confusing.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 9, 2014)

Thats specifically why i want to firmly set the rules of my world. I dont wamt their to be any inconsistencies or any cause for the reader to be confused

Well in truth its more for me, since a lot of it will indeed be in the background, but because of the size of the background stuff and the prevelance of it in my story, i dont want to confuse myself lol.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 9, 2014)

My world is just the real world with some small changes. Namely that Angels and Demons are real and the public knows about them. There are also dragons. 

I've decided that snarky first person characters are just more fun to write. The character that's Lucifer's daughter is the one I keep going back to because she's crazy and she's kind of bitchy.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I want to read it once its done.



Alright :33 But there are parts of the story with specific characters I don't explain and will never explain until the books I have for them 



~Avant~ said:


> Shit I'm with you Yu. I'm still hammering down all the final details in my thread. I plan to do a post for each race/class. Then go in depth behind the cosmology, possibly go in depth behind the mythos, and then write the plot overviews for my books, as a guide for when I start writing the dialogue and what not.



Shit people... You have all these reaserchy type stories going into depths about angels and demon, factions and corporations and stuff and all I did was look up if wyverns could breathe fire like dragons.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 9, 2014)

Just as long as I can follow along. It'll keep me hungry for more.

Lol its really just my nature. I've always been a researcher, its more fun than work for me. I just want my story to be as immersive as possible.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

Oh, it'll keep ya readin' alright.  It'll keep ya readin' till ya dies.

I'm terrible with endings though. I want to leave the book on a major cliffhanger but I'm not sure. Here's the ending I've planned:

_Anetelia turns her head to Giotto. Her eyes glow like the sun. The witch smiles and says, "Run." And he does. _


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 9, 2014)

Fuck that. Imma need more. You cant just end it like that!!! Dont do this to meeeeeeee!!!3!


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

Well it has a sequel which will conclude the two-part series. I'm really excited for this fight scene between two characters that will reappear in almost every book I write.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 9, 2014)

Oh alright then. Its fine if theirs a sequel.

Do they have any interesting abilities or anything like that?


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

Well their names are Steven Friday (me) and Vincenzo Perella (friend) throughout all of time and in this book, they have mostly superspeed. Steven's fast on his feet and Vincenzo's fast with his arms. They use swords as weapons. Steven's more powerful than Vincenzo though. Speed with your arms is impressive but since he's not light on his feet like Steven, the attacks don't do much.

But in other books, they have different powers and maybe they'll have different appearances. I'm not too sure on the latter yet.


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## Galo de Lion (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm in the stages of writing my own book. It's going to involve space and water. I write down some ideas and lines each day so I remember not to procrastonate on it.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 9, 2014)

@Malicious Friday: It kinda reminds me of The Flash and Zoom mixed in with some Doctor Who. So thats pretty fuckin awesome.

@TTGL: Is your story going to parallel an ocean of water to a star ocean? At least thats what i get from your concept. Nevertheless I'd like to know more


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## Tyrael (Jan 9, 2014)

Yeah, the key often is just to do a little bit each day. Something I need to start doing again likes.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 9, 2014)

TTGL said:


> I'm in the stages of writing my own book. It's going to involve space and water. I write down some ideas and lines each day so I remember not to procrastonate on it.



Underwater? Because we don't get enough of that. I tried to write an underwater adventure once but failed because I'm a guy who's never seen the sea.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> @Malicious Friday: It kinda reminds me of The Flash and Zoom mixed in with some Doctor Who. So thats pretty fuckin awesome.



Haha, thanks. I'm planning to have Steven's origin do with something about an alternate earth Steven who is trying to find the secrets of the universe. I'm not sure about Vincenzo's yet 



Lord Yu said:


> Underwater? Because we don't get enough of that. I tried to write an underwater adventure once but failed because I'm a guy who's never seen the sea.



It's just land that's been painted blue :33


I've noticed that I've referenced things I didn't even know I referenced. Like, a spell I wrote out for the books was _"...But when a good man goes to war/He will fall/Fall so hard and lose everything with him..." _That's from fucking Doctor Who...in a way... I hope I don't get sued, lol.  I've referenced so much stuff that I referenced things inside references.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

*The Wednesday Post*



> *Calling all writers ? do you want to be published? HarperCollins wants to hear from you!*
> 
> HarperCollins is inviting unsolicited manuscripts from aspiring authors in Australia, New Zealand and around the world. Whether or not you?ve been previously published, this is the perfect opportunity to submit your work and have a chance to be published by an award-winning, international publishing house.
> 
> ...



I thought you all might be interested in this. I'm going to do it and see where it gets me in the future. Here's the full link:


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## Risyth (Jan 9, 2014)

50 pages? Lol, that's like a chapter and a half.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 9, 2014)

I might look into this Harper Collins thing, though I don't have an edited manuscript.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> 50 pages? Lol, that's like a chapter and a half.



Shit, one chapter? In Word that's 6 chapters for me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 9, 2014)

That's a bit long for one chapter, I really dislike when books have long or no chapters.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 9, 2014)

Under the Feet of Jesus is a good example of having no chapters 

I hate that book with a passion.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 9, 2014)

Most chapters are 20 pages at most these days. People have so many distractions around them that they need quick chapters they can finish and take a break at.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 9, 2014)

There's just no good reason not to have them, like I remember someone saying that real life doesn't have chapters. 

Well that's a stupid excuse for not making your book more digestible.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 10, 2014)

These days my chapters tend to last about 4000 words a piece.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 10, 2014)

That's way too long for comfort


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## Risyth (Jan 10, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Shit, one chapter? In Word that's 6 chapters for me.



Yep, in Word, though I've steadily increased since then. 

My latest chapter is going to reach 200+ pages. I only stop when everything concerning the scene is at a rightful end.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 10, 2014)

Again: That's way too long for comfort


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## Risyth (Jan 10, 2014)

It's not a cover-book, though. And it's something to read in one sitting until you don't want to anymore. I made the divisions long on purpose so if anyone reads it, it's not "get from chapter A to chapter B to X, Y, and Z" and, oops, it's over.

But that's not the only reason. To be honest, the establishment of chapters is usually an arbitrary thing that only exists to divide a book up. If the divisions are truly natural, so be it, but they usually aren't. Either that or the story's short anyway.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 10, 2014)

If it's going to be 200+ pages why have chapters at all?  I prefer to keep my chapters digestible. It's not only for the audience but it also makes editing easier for me.


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## Risyth (Jan 10, 2014)

For instance, I have multiple protagonists (more than three), so I can't keep everything in the same chapter when I switch over. One scene can't continue on forever, at least not here.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 10, 2014)

I tend to try and keep my chapters under ten thousand words and usually if I do a major switch in location or lead character I will change them. Though I do have small breaks in chapters where I just do a double tap on enter and go from there.


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## Risyth (Jan 10, 2014)

So, they're all in one document?


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## Tyrael (Jan 10, 2014)

I wouldn't call 20 pages a small chapter really, it's about average.

Pages, really, doesn't mean much though, as that's subject to things like formatting. Wordcount is a way better way to talk about it.


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## Risyth (Jan 10, 2014)

Then 25,000+ words now.


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## Tyrael (Jan 10, 2014)

One chapter?


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## Risyth (Jan 10, 2014)

The latest one. My shortest is ~900 words as it's only a minor, transitional chapter.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 10, 2014)

I have a question. How do authors choose the art for their cover? Does the publishing company do that for them?


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 10, 2014)

I forgot who it was on here, but he said that someone does it for him. He'll just tell him what he wants and the artist draw it to the best representation he can. 

I'm not too sure about the second question though. 

I'm gonna draw (since I draw) and color out the cover I want want and pay a professional artist to redo the cover 100 times better.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 10, 2014)

Hmm something for me to think about


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## Lord Yu (Jan 10, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I have a question. How do authors choose the art for their cover? Does the publishing company do that for them?



For major releases, it tends to be the publishing company.


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## Banhammer (Jan 10, 2014)

I do 35k words a chapter, but the pacing is clear in it.


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## Banhammer (Jan 10, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I tried doing the Hell version of the angel Hierarchy for my story, but i couldnt quite find appropriate terms or names for each class



Demons of fate
Goblins
Incubi and succubi
Wandering groups or armies of demons
Familiars
Drudes
Cambions and other demons that are born from the union of a demon with a human being.
Liar and mischievous demons
Demons that attack the saints
Demons that try to induce old women to attend Witches' Sabbaths

from wikipedia <<


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 10, 2014)

But none of those really fit as a Daemon hierarchy, just terms for different demons.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 11, 2014)

After looking at Banhammer's list of names, I saw Familiar and remembered what Marceline said with Maja's crabbit was (Adventure Time): a familiar. 

I have two demons named Sliv and Slav who help the primary antagonist, Anetelia, in my book. They help the witch gather the Pieces throughout the story. Would they be considered her Familiars or no?


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 11, 2014)

Yes I suppose so, but you can title them whatever you want. Its your story.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 11, 2014)

Sounds like familiars to me.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 11, 2014)

I just cracked the problem I have been having trying to figure out abilities for my Angels, Devas, Grigori, Djinn, Daemons, Asuras, Aeons, Reapers, Elohim, Kami, Dragons, Bahamuts, and Phoenixs all in one fell swoop.

The problem was making their power so hax that they feel like an impossible thing to overcome, but not so powerful that they would require a Deus ex Machina to overcome. While at the same time making them distinctive enough that they arent copies of each other or of any other ability in the story. Suffice to say it was no small task. But when combining physics and a little imagination it came together wonderfully


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## Tyrael (Jan 11, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I have a question. How do authors choose the art for their cover? Does the publishing company do that for them?



Sometimes it's the booksellers, actually - their power in the whole process is immense.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 11, 2014)

Do they actually read the novel? To make sure the cover has at least something to do with the story


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## Tyrael (Jan 11, 2014)

I've not actually got a first-hand inside perspective, but from what I've read often the artist and/or the people calling the shots get a basic synopsis and not much else.

Unless you've got a novel written and fully edited and secured literary representation, it's not really a problem worth worrying about yet though.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 11, 2014)

Im not worried about it. Just curious as to the whole process more than anything else.


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## Tyrael (Jan 11, 2014)

Fair enough - personally, I have a lot of trouble not getting distracted by stuff like that.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 11, 2014)

Pointless to let it distract, as with all other things in life, things will always figure themselves out.


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## Banhammer (Jan 11, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> But none of those really fit as a Daemon hierarchy, just terms for different demons.


Well, you can certainly assign rank to function pretty easily, if you'd like




~Avant~ said:


> I have a question. How do authors choose the art for their cover? Does the publishing company do that for them?



As far as I'm aware, 99% of the time, author gets no say whatsoever in the cover.
You need Rowling tier pull on your works in order to get a significant say on that.

One can however strongly object against a choice, or pitch one to the publisher, and they will listen


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## Banhammer (Jan 11, 2014)

I'd love to see some form of index where the aspiring novelists of NF listed the premises of the ideas on their work. I like it when a person's ideas tell me about the person itself


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 12, 2014)

^Why am I having a hard time understanding that?


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

I think he wants an index of the works of the authors of NF and what inspired them to write their story.

For me, I have a little sister who reads novels how we read/watch/play manga/anime/video games. Its all she does in her down time. She loves Percy Jackson and genre novels in general, so one day she challenged me to write a genre novel like that for her. I accepted it but never could quite come up with a good idea, until an exgirlfriend and my current editor inspired the basic plot of my story.

Now that its been two years since then, and now I have a son. I want to leave something I consider epic  behind for him should something happen to me when I'm out on deployment in the Middle East.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 12, 2014)

My ideas always sprang up because I wanted to make video games. I still think of my stories like video games. Villains like bosses, setpieces like dungeons etc. Don't know how that effects their effectiveness as prose.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

Personally I would think that would enhance it. Just as long as you remeber their isnt any gameplay involved with your story lol


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 12, 2014)

I mostly get my ideas by watching television or reading. Most of the fights scenes I do come from anime. My current book, if I haven't said this before, is, or somewhat, heavily inspired from the _Mortal Instrument_ series. A trilogy I plan to do in the future is inspired from the _Keys to the Kingdom_ series and the first book of my last series is inspired from Attack on Titan (just the whole concept of the Walls, really).


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

I hope your writing and plot is better than Cassandra Clares. I couldnt get past the first book. Its one of the more terrible things I've ever read. I know at least two forum members who hate her and want her to burn in hell


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 12, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I hope your writing and plot is better than Cassandra Clares. I couldnt get past the first book. Its one of the more terrible things I've ever read. I know at least two forum members who hate her and want her to burn in hell



I actually liked the series. The last few books are unnecessary, really. (even though I'm on the 5th book ) But what don't you like about the plot? And I think the writing is pretty good. I've gotten a lot of new words from her, like decanter.

From what I've noticed about the book that stands out the most that it's kind of like _I am Number Four_ (oh, god the movie was terrible )... which is a series I read as well.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

Well Cassandra is a pretty infamous plagerizer. Most notably she plagerizes things from Harry Potter and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Her whole Bloodlines thing is fucking terribly executed. Clarry and Jace are sibling then theyre not. That plot device was fucking stupid as shit. All of her characters are basically poor imiatations of Joss Whedons clever and witty characters. And so much about her world building is fucking lazy as shit. Top it off with her shitty writing style and I ask you what is their to like?
.


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## Banhammer (Jan 12, 2014)

never heard of her

And my genre library is well deep in it's triple digits


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

Count your blessings


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## Lord Yu (Jan 12, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Personally I would think that would enhance it. Just as long as you remeber their isnt any gameplay involved with your story lol



It's funny really, aside from a few jokes it's probably not very gamey. I'm hefty on dialogue. Though if you think about it my story could probably adapt to Hideo Kojima style game.


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## crazymtf (Jan 12, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> I'd love to see some form of index where the aspiring novelists of NF listed the premises of the ideas on their work. I like it when a person's ideas tell me about the person itself



I write basically because it's world building. I love creating things, from youtube videos to music (lolz) but books. Books is creating LIFE. It's starting nothing to something. I love creating characters, interactions, big events/small events, and so on. I just love to see what I can create and if it works. 

I also would love to leave behind something. So when I do pass on, I'm still alive in words. Leave something behind for people to remember me, even if it's never famous work


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

@Yu: Your story just keeps getting more and more interesting to me, from the tidbits youve told me of it.

@mtf: I'm with you on that. As much as I like to pretend Im too cool for all the world building stuff I do IRL, i really fucking love doing it. Its a lot of fun.

Are any of you guys viewing my thread, I know I post and edit it often, but thrirs noway all those 200+ views are entirely mine. Just curious to know  really


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## Lord Yu (Jan 12, 2014)

I gave a cursory glance.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 12, 2014)

Cassandra Clare has some kind of odd obsession with i*c*st, her series features it heavily and at least one short story I saw did too. I will give her this, she at least tries to write fantasy without the all white cast, there's a person from south east Asia in her books, Hispanics and other types of people running around. It's kind of refreshing to see that.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

I make it a point to include just about every race and culture of people in my story. White people are probably in the minority


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 12, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Well Cassandra is a pretty infamous plagerizer. Most notably she plagerizes things from Harry Potter and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.



Really? I never noticed 
I can see how it's similar to Buffy, but not Harry Potter.



~Avant~ said:


> Her whole Bloodlines thing is fucking terribly executed. Clary and Jace are sibling then they're not. That plot device was fucking stupid as shit. All of her characters are basically poor imitations of Joss Whedon's clever and witty characters. And so much about her world building is fucking lazy as shit. Top it off with her shitty writing style and I ask you what is their to like?
> .



I found Jace and Clary being not siblings after that reveal put a real load off on me because if they were siblings, I wondered what will happen to their relationships.
I don't look at Joss Whedon's stuff. 
I agree with the world building.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Cassandra Clare has some kind of odd obsession with i*c*st, her series features it heavily and at least one short story I saw did too. I will give her this, she at least tries to write fantasy without the all white cast, there's a person from south east Asia in her books, Hispanics and other types of people running around. It's kind of refreshing to see that.



I have a character in my book who is Scottish, Japanese, Black and Russian.  
My main character is mulatto. (Melissa)
Another character is white.
One is Indian (no accent).
Another looks black (but not fully human). He's a shark/human hybrid.
One is from Africa.
One is Turkish... you get it. I have diversity.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 12, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Really? I never noticed
> I can see how it's similar to Buffy, but not Harry Potter.



You do realize that her entire series started out as being Harry Potter fan fiction, right? She wrote what was referred to as the Draco Trilogy. Clare based the Clary character on Ginny and the character she fell in love with was Draco. If you look hard enough you see other bits of the cast in there too. But yeah, she basically blew up the fan fiction world between book four and five of Harry Potter and she had an army of cronies so big that even I knew not to say anything bad about her and back then I hadn't read Harry Potter.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 12, 2014)

I just read the books for my enjoyment. I don't look at those things. (  -.-)

STOP TRYING TO MAKE ME HATE IT!!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 12, 2014)

Not trying to make anyone hate it, but that's the truth. She did change them a lot before she got published from what I understand. Fifty Shades of Grey is basically just a name swap.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 12, 2014)

Its like she took the world building Harry Potter, mixed it with Joss Whedon characters, and used a Twilight plotline. Its sad that garbage like that gets a following at all.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

The main character of my current story is black, Japanese (Or rather the rough local equivalent, long story) and Spanish (Actually Spanish, her father was born in Spain, looooong story). Diversity is not a point I make. It's a thing that happens when you spread a story across a planet. Currently a hefty chunk of my recurring cast is non-human. I do have a problem depicting human and non-human romantic relationships. Though it's really really common in my setting. Except for that Noir story I wrote.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 13, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Its like she took the world building Harry Potter, mixed it with Joss Whedon characters, and used a Twilight plotline. Its sad that garbage like that gets a following at all.



Well she predates Twilight I think.


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## Cjones (Jan 13, 2014)

Yes, it's often disheartening when obviously terrible stuff garners such massive popularity with the media backing it up. I remember when I first heard about Fifty Shades of Grey on TV. Couples would get on and talk about how the book helped there sex life and they got pregnant because of it. Also how it was a pretty good risque read. 

Until I read it myself; read like a very bad fan fiction by teenage girls. 

But meh, more power to them though. I sure wouldn't complain if it was me.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 13, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> The main character of my current story is black, Japanese (Or rather the rough local equivalent, long story) and Spanish (Actually Spanish, her father was born in Spain, looooong story). Diversity is not a point I make. It's a thing that happens when you spread a story across a planet. Currently a hefty chunk of my recurring cast is non-human. I do have a problem depicting human and non-human romantic relationships. Though it's really really common in my setting. Except for that Noir story I wrote.



I have an ex-Nazi in my book  He is of no importance in the overall story except the War. 


Fifty Shades of Grey is just porn to me...


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

Bret Easton Ellis is writing the Fifty Shades movie and has pretty much guaranteed it's going to be HILARIOUS. Also Gilbert Gottfried read it aloud. So something potentially amazing is coming out of it at least. The Mortal Instruments movie tanked. So there's nothing to say about that.

I've been honestly terrified that my books would get labeled YA. My heroes are kind of in that age range but it probably doesn't have that sort of appeal.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 13, 2014)

I have that same exact fear for my story Yu.

But whatever happens happens I suppose.

How do you guys write the romantic parts in your stories. I basically copy and paste alot of the events that have happened in my life. I've had a pretty amazing sex/love life, so Im thankful for that. It really enhances my writing when I can feel what my character is feeling.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

That's a really hard thing to summarize. I pretty much hate melodrama in my romantic areas, so I approach them in a very casual way. They're usually awkward and comical. As for sex, also fairly straightforward. I like to handle these things as realistically as possible even if there is literal magic involved.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 13, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> The Mortal Instruments movie tanked.



I couldn't watch it after 30 minutes 
All the CGI in the world couldn't save that movie 



Lord Yu said:


> I've been honestly terrified that my books would get labeled YA. My heroes are kind of in that age range but it probably doesn't have that sort of appeal.



I've literally had an almost sex scene with one of the Pieces and Anetelia. (Her magic makes males, gay or straight, erect and want to have sex with her.) I even wrote about how big the erection was 

My thing ain't gonna be a YA book 



~Avant~ said:


> How do you guys write the romantic parts in your stories. I basically copy and paste a lot of the events that have happened in my life. I've had a pretty amazing sex/love life, so Im thankful for that. It really enhances my writing when I can feel what my character is feeling.


 
I've never been in a relationship so I avoid romance in my books. But I did have a scene where Reduele asked Jackson if he liked Melissa or if just liked her because she's the first female human he's seen in years. It was the latter. That's as basically as romantic as my story gets. there's no more romance after that.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

I had an explicit sex scene early on in my story and a part of my plot deals with sexual violence. Also, like I said earlier, my villain calls herself the Saint of Lust. 

I have plenty of romance in my books of a wide variety, straight, gay and interspecies.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 13, 2014)

I have this whole society of witches that I don't think I'll ever put in my books because there's no room...

But a witch is born with a certain sin (i.e. Wrath, Greed, Lust, Pride, etc.) and whatever that sin is, their magic will be based off that. But is a witch/warlock/wizard breeds with a demon, the witch (only witches) will obtain an extra form of magic that allows her to perform powerful spells along with whatever the demon's magical affinity is. Anetelia's demon magic is based off of antelopes and the the normal witch magic is lust (which explains the secks.)

That bitch has had one too many oil changes to be considered a virgin


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 13, 2014)

I've never really been comfortable writing gay characters. Even though my sister is lesbian amd one of closest friends is gay. Idk I just feel uncomfortable writing it. But i try my best anyway. Its something I really do need to get over.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

I have these five sisters in my books. They are skilled in various magics. I've always imagined them being able to do a lot of magic but each have one particular specialty. One necromancy, another Illusions, etc. Coincidentally, my villain is also the sister with power over Lust. I always wondered if it was redundant because for instance all the sisters know how to do illusory magic to some degree but the one sister who specializes in it can make you lose control of all of your senses.  Ayu, who controls lust can make you lose all sense of yourself and become a raving monster who's only instinct is to fuck anything you can and it works on men, women, and animals.


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## Cjones (Jan 13, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I've never really been comfortable writing gay characters. Even though my sister is lesbian amd one of closest friends is gay. Idk I just feel uncomfortable writing it. But i try my best anyway. Its something I really do need to get over.



I use to have the same problems when I would practice writing, so I would often make the characters female, usually tomboys, and then just edit them into males after I was finished.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 13, 2014)

I noticed that if we were in person discussing all this, my wording would be terribly different  I'm terrible a oral communication when explaining things. 

Demon-witches are near immortal. They age 1/5th of a normal human. Demons age 1/10th of a normal human.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

I have problems writing about fellatio. I could write about man on man buttfucking or handies but I just have a hard time getting down to the beej. Cunnilingus is also fine but the old disappearing sausage is still very hard for me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 13, 2014)

Wouldn't call that near immortal. Immortal means not dying at all. They have a long life span, the only thing I would consider near-immortal would be Vampires or things that could be killed through special means only. Something like God would be truly immortal and indestructible. 



Cjones said:


> I use to have the same problems when I would practice writing, so I would often make the characters female, usually tomboys, and then just edit them into males after I was finished.



My Angel of Death is a lesbian or bi, I really never decided, but she's only shown to be interested in women and not in the snarky bad girl way that most movies try to make lesbians so it's safe. She's honestly romantically head over heels for them at times and distracted by them and everything.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I noticed that if we were in person discussing all this, my wording would be terribly different  I'm terrible a oral communication when explaining things.
> 
> Demon-witches are near immortal. They age 1/5th of a normal human. Demons age 1/10th of a normal human.



I haven't figured out slowed aging. I'm not sure it exists for magic users in the current age in my novels. It did exist at some point because it's mentioned in the story of Ahevanyuts. 

The five sisters I mentioned earlier are immortal. Actually they're technically dead, so I guess you could call them undead but they don't look like zombies. They are Vizidin. It's complicated to explain.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 13, 2014)

@Yu: Doesnt sound redundant at all

@jones: Thats what I was going to do originally, but I thought it was the easy route out. And it takes you out of the state of mind of a man and another man loving each other.

@Friday: I'd probably have the same problem too. Unless i have statistics in mind or something of the like, Im terrible at describing things verbally.

I'm still working out the age limits for my story. Most will probably immortal at least anyone from the spirit realm obviously. Otherwise any character on Earth should only be 1000 years old at most


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

I don't call them undead but I realized it kind of sounds like they are. Their souls were eaten by two respective soul eating entities and reborn into approximations of their living forms to be servants to the respective entities.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 13, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Wouldn't call that near immortal. Immortal means not dying at all. They have a long life span, the only thing I would consider near-immortal would be Vampires or things that could be killed through special means only. Something like God would be truly immortal and indestructible.



I never really liked the idea that immortals can't die. _"Even immortals have to die sometime..."_ I just... I just... I don't know...That's what I said in my book. 



Lord Yu said:


> I haven't figured out slowed aging. I'm not sure it exists for magic users in the current age in my novels. It did exist at some point because it's mentioned in the story of Ahevanyuts.



It's all math. 

And in my books, if it's magical or able to use magic, it has a longer lifespan than a human. 

Elves in my books have a regular lifespan of 100 years, but they usually  either kill themselves from the work overload or are fed to the wyverns and griffons... or both  Most don't live past 50.


----------



## Cjones (Jan 13, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My Angel of Death is a lesbian or bi, I really never decided, but she's only shown to be interested in women and not in the snarky bad girl way that most movies try to make lesbians so it's safe. She's honestly romantically head over heels for them at times and distracted by them and everything.



I have a similar character who's a lesbian, but she rather flamboyant, and another who's bi while being pretty chill and laid back about the fake that she'll trounce any man/woman.

And I've also never understood why movies go that route. Always assumed it was to make'em seem 'cool.' 



~Avant~ said:


> @jones: Thats what I was going to do originally, but I thought it was the easy route out. And it takes you out of the state of mind of a man and another man loving each other.



I admit it does at times and I use to get invested in the character and just kept them female. 

Now I'm pretty nonchalant about it.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

The Deyul aside from the Hinsgar tend to live about as long as humans do. There aren't that many immortals in my story. Immortality is particularly rare. To clarify, whatever magics there were to extend a human or Deyul life are lost to the ages.


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## Tyrael (Jan 13, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> *Bret Easton Ellis is writing the Fifty Shades movie* and has pretty much guaranteed it's going to be HILARIOUS. Also Gilbert Gottfried read it aloud. So something potentially amazing is coming out of it at least. The Mortal Instruments movie tanked. So there's nothing to say about that.
> 
> I've been honestly terrified that my books would get labeled YA. My heroes are kind of in that age range but it probably doesn't have that sort of appeal.



Not actually true sadly. He expressed his interest in writing it, but he isn't among the writers actually listed for it.

Would have been amazing.

Not sure why you wouldn't want your work labelled YA tbh - there's a shitton of great YA fiction, and it's currently a way more successful genre than fantasy. It also allows for exposure to a much larger and more varied demographic (tons of people who read it tend to be older than the target range).


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 13, 2014)

Oh I heard of Mortal instruments It's the one with the gay asian wizard in the movie, right?

Didn't watch it, but heard of it.

I too am writing a fantasy, but it's really more of a personal hobbie >_>

Urban approach, it actually counts with four POV's though I'm thinking about cutting one of them off, and two different social approaches (The urban class and the aristos)

I also like my main characters tho I certainly suffer for diversity
Old lady
Chubby teenager
Heterosexual (lol) Life Partners
Tom Sawyeresque Thief


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 13, 2014)

Cjones said:


> I have a similar character who's a lesbian, but she rather flamboyant, and another who's bi while being pretty chill and laid back about the fake that she'll trounce any man/woman.



Death is still more or less a young girl and she doesn't really know what she wants, but she's attracted to other girls It'll probably never be a large part of any story because I don't tend to like romance writing.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 13, 2014)

The Grimoire Memory thread. Though its function is more of a database at the moment.


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## crazymtf (Jan 13, 2014)

I'll check it. 



~Avant~ said:


> I have that same exact fear for my story Yu.
> 
> But whatever happens happens I suppose.
> 
> How do you guys write the romantic parts in your stories. I basically copy and paste alot of the events that have happened in my life. I've had a pretty amazing sex/love life, so Im thankful for that. It really enhances my writing when I can feel what my character is feeling.



I usually do the same. Take events from real life. My girlfriend and I have a great sex life, so pretty easy to write it down


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Not actually true sadly. He expressed his interest in writing it, but he isn't among the writers actually listed for it.
> 
> Would have been amazing.
> 
> Not sure why you wouldn't want your work labelled YA tbh - there's a shitton of great YA fiction, and it's currently a way more successful genre than fantasy. It also allows for exposure to a much larger and more varied demographic (tons of people who read it tend to be older than the target range).



My heart is broken and can never be mended.

I often find myself struggling with the idea of even wanting to be popular. I don't think I know what is popular. Part of me imagines an audience of weaboos reading my work because of all the Japanese shit I stuffed in my work. Though I'm really not too sure of that.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 13, 2014)

I want to be popular. I want to be J.K. Rowling popular. But that shit ain't gonna happen


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

I just want to write something interesting. Something I'd like to read and laugh with. Something they could never make a movie out of because it's too fucked.


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## Tyrael (Jan 13, 2014)

I want to make enough money that I don't need a real job like a proper human being.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 13, 2014)

Im with you Tyrael


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

I kind of want to make money but I also have a growing contempt for modern society that is beginning to eclipse it.


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## Banhammer (Jan 13, 2014)

I write mostly to entertain friends  abroad. So. Yeah.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 13, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> I want to make enough money that I don't need a real job like a proper human being.



That's exactly what I'm aiming for. 



Lord Yu said:


> I just want to write something interesting. Something I'd like to read and laugh with. Something they could never make a movie out of because it's too fucked.



If they make my book into a movie, I want it to be animated like anime. I can't see it being live action because of all the stuff I have in it. The cost of CGI will be enormous. Especially on creating the Four Sovereigns... and making Cryptorium walk. I don't even know how he walks...


I have a question: how do you all go when doing world building in your books? Usually I just provide a history on it in a previous chapter before I go right back into the main plot. I just finished a chapter called _History of the Underworld_.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 13, 2014)

I just reveal piece by piece of the world as the story goes forward. I weave it into the plot and dialogue as seemlessly as possible, to make it feel natural. That way my reader doesnt feel like theyre reading some kind of data book, amd they dont get confused by anything, because I walk them through it step by step.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2014)

I let the audience piece together the world. Probably to my detriment in some cases. I often find myself going Gene Wolfe style and treating strange things as a given. I give a lot of exposition for my characters but not a lot of direct exposition for my world.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 13, 2014)

I think the key is making it as simple as possible to understand in as few words as possible.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 13, 2014)

I just drop mine in some situation, and explain the relevant bits retroactively if the context can't do it by itself.


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## Tyrael (Jan 14, 2014)

For the UK based among us: http://www.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/opportunities/opening-lines


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## crazymtf (Jan 14, 2014)

Money would be amazing but more so, I just want more and more people to read it.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 14, 2014)

Hell yes. I love killing my chracters


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2014)

I kill characters sparingly.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2014)

I kill characters carefully and make sure not to use it in the bullshit way people like Martin do where I just do it to try and be shocking and dark. Then there are worse things than death in my world so it's not like this is the most final or scary thing I can do to them.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2014)

I think it's ok to kill characters like Martin does when you do it sparingly. The biggest problem Martin has is that killing the characters also took down plotlines gutting the story and leaving a hellish abyss where nothing moves forward (AKA A Feast For Crows).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I think it's ok to kill characters like Martin does when you do it sparingly. The biggest problem Martin has is that killing the characters also took down plotlines gutting the story and leaving a hellish abyss where nothing moves forward (AKA A Feast For Crows).



He seems to kill people without regard for what will happen to the story lines their involved in, which is the problem. He cares more about making things seem dangerous and telling the story.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2014)

I agree. It's fucktarded. But less not get sidetracked on GoT. Let's just talk about character death.


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## Cjones (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm like Yu, in the regard that I kill characters very sparingly. Killing off a character, for me, has to be beneficial to the plot in some way, shape, or form as well as be meaningful. 

It's something I often get into a debate on this forum with other posters when I post in the library. Just killing off people won't automatically make a story better or increase tension sometimes.


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## Risyth (Jan 14, 2014)

Who's Martin?


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 14, 2014)

The author of the game of thrones books.


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## Risyth (Jan 14, 2014)

....

...hi.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 14, 2014)

I kill off characters a lot. In one book I have, called _Arena Trap_, people die in almost every chapter because it's a fight to the death kind of book.

In the book I'm writing currently, people usually die off-page until the end where all the main characters die except two. 
Then a fuckton of people die in the second book  Wars happen against Anetelia.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2014)

In the novel I have completed two main characters die. In the thing I am working on now, the one that's more about teens and the like no one dies in the first book at least, but it's the kind of thing where character death will really change the dynamic. 

I only have three main characters in the book I'm working on now: there's Lissette, she's the daughter of Lucifer and a human mother who has tendencies towards being suspicious of others and nosy. She prides herself on stalking people and finding out secrets and being slightly manipulative. Then there's Annemarie, she's a half-succubus who uses her inherent charm to gain access to places for hacking and for talking her way out of trouble (a Succubus in my world doesn't control people and make them sleep with her, they actually use pheromones). The last character is Duane, he's Annemarie's boyfriend who has a rich family. He's human while he helps them out most of the time they're kind of protective of him in some situations. 

The way I see it none of these characters can die any time in the foreseeable future without changing the entire dynamic of the story. The story is too dependent on all of them so I have to find other ways to make things interesting.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2014)

There's probably going to be more death than I usually have because it's an unstable world and I have a larger cast with blatant redshirts. And my protagonist's name means One who walks with death. Though it's meant in a more positive connotation.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> There's probably going to be more death than I usually have because it's an unstable world and I have a larger cast with blatant redshirts. And my protagonist's name means One who walks with death. Though it's meant in a more positive connotation.



The novel that's one has that large cast thing going on and it has a more dramatic feel to it. This other one is written more like YA, though I don't know if I can get away with some of this stuff being YA: 



> I can see their shadows just before they part ways as he gives her a peck on the forehead. It?s like, she just had your cock in her mouth not half an hour ago?you?d think he?d show a little more gratitude.



I'll write what I want and when it comes time for them to market it, if there is marketing to be done for it, I'll let them decide who it's right for.


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2014)

The thing about GRRM is that the way he treats characters works thematically - a lot of the ideas in GoT are about subverting our expectations when it comes to fiction in order to demonstrate the cold brutality of the actual time period and the fact that life doesn't work as conveniently as fiction.

The problem with this is it's just not fun. It's just a bit of an annoying and slightly obnoxious waste.

**

But yeah, I rarely kill characters either. It certainly has its place, but too often it just seems like a blunt instrument with which to try and shock readers/create a "dark and edgy" mystique.

Not saying don't do it, just be sure you know what you're doing.


----------



## crazymtf (Jan 15, 2014)

I kill off characters when I feel it's right. I usually don't build them up to some dramatic effect before death, I kill them naturally. If you are trapped in a room with people readying to kill you no one is going to save you. This is it, and you will die. No build up, or big goodbyes, or this is my fight to the death. You just die...lol. 

Either way, I wrote character's death when I see fit and also the story I'm creating. Horror story = a lot of death. So yeah, all comes down to story.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2014)

So I had the nerdiest conversation of my life. I was talking with guy because I was kicking around the idea of adapting my world into an RTS. He told me about his and we sounded like the biggest nerds in the room.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 15, 2014)

I'm trying to think of a title other than "The Hunger Gospel" for my zombie apoc book. The Hunger Gospel is from Marvel Zombies. It's what they named the virus.  So I can't use that and I can't think of another title.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2014)

The Hunger Games


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 15, 2014)

Lol

@Lord Yu: If you view my thread you'll notice I built each of my classes/races like RTS units. With different levels and shit.


----------



## Speedy Jag. (Jan 15, 2014)

I'd like to get into writing short stories, maybe via Kindle, but unsure if it's worth it tbh.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 15, 2014)

Does anyone here write or read hard science fiction?


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 15, 2014)

I literally have 4 chapters left but I can't write if my life depended on it  Why do you do this to me universe!?


----------



## crazymtf (Jan 15, 2014)

Matoi Ryuuko said:


> I'd like to get into writing short stories, maybe via Kindle, but unsure if it's worth it tbh.


You never know, you might tell a story people will love. I don't spend much on short stories and I find them very much worth it.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 16, 2014)

Has anybody here ever read "Child by Tiger"? I find that to me my favorite short story. I love stories that show the monstrous side to humanity.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 16, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Does anyone here write or read hard science fiction?


Does Asimov count as hard SF?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 16, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> Does Asimov count as hard SF?



I think that some of his stuff does. I don't really read that kind of thing myself, but I was listening to a podcast about it and it does seem to have an appeal. I also just learned about writing that is hard social science fiction, which kind of appeals to me more.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 16, 2014)

I should read more short stories.


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## Tyrael (Jan 16, 2014)

You should write more monster porn.





> Cum For Bigfoot outsold all of Wade’s other erotica, earning her up to $30,000 a month through Amazon’s Kindle Direct Publishing





Matoi Ryuuko said:


> I'd like to get into writing short stories, maybe via Kindle, but unsure if it's worth it tbh.



It definitely is - if you can get a couple of shorts published in magazines it gets easier to get your stuff picked up.



Malicious Friday said:


> Has anybody here ever read "Child by Tiger"? I find that to me my favorite short story. I love stories that show the monstrous side to humanity.



By whom?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 16, 2014)

I have been VERY tempted to write some monster girl porn. But that would only end badly.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 16, 2014)

What the fuck?!


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 16, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> By whom?



It's by Thomas Wolfe


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## Tyrael (Jan 16, 2014)

Not read anything by him, but hear he is an excellent writer.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 16, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> What the fuck?!



Welcome to The Internet.


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## Tyrael (Jan 16, 2014)

Not sure we can even blame the internet for that one.

Welcome to the same world that hoovered up Twilight and 50 Shades.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 16, 2014)

Curse this world


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 16, 2014)

Twilight really just ruined vampires for me. True Blood sealed the deal.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 16, 2014)

Y ju no lyke True Blood?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 16, 2014)

I feel stupid now that I just realized my protagonist is a necromancer.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 16, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> You should write more monster porn.





~Avant~ said:


> What the fuck?!





Lord Yu said:


> Welcome to The Internet.


No

Welcome to the Human Race.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 16, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Y ju no lyke True Blood?



Okay, first off, I don't like romance unless it's Disney (because Disney's the shit ). Second, I hate how vampires have evolved to a group of lovey-dovey, wishy-washy, susspussies. I don't even know what the hell I'm saying...


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 16, 2014)

I hate teen drama type romance. But mature romance, not sexually explicit romance, when written correctly, is the best. But i see what you mean about vampires being pussies now


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 16, 2014)

I hate teen drama in general. It's usually the same shit. Tyler Perry movies as well...


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 16, 2014)

Fuck tyler perry


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 16, 2014)

I stopped watching him a long time ago because his movies were the same.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 16, 2014)

All his crap is the same


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## Lord Yu (Jan 16, 2014)

Let's not talk about Tyler Perry.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 16, 2014)

I have this place in the Underworld called the Over-Maximum security Prison, or the Confinement Citadel, or the Castle Citadel, and I am having a hard time describing the inside of it. It's supposed to be a mixture between a rehabilitation center and a prison, but I've never been in either types of buildings to actually know what to correctly describe and give the feel to it. 

I hate it. 

Do you guys ever have that type of problem in you books?


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## Cjones (Jan 16, 2014)

I have a problem with being overly descriptive.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Does anyone here write or read hard science fiction?



I just recently started reading H.G Wells work, The Time Machine and The War of The Worlds.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 16, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I have this place in the Underworld called the Over-Maximum security Prison, or the Confinement Citadel, or the Castle Citadel, and I am having a hard time describing the inside of it. It's supposed to be a mixture between a rehabilitation center and a prison, but I've never been in either types of buildings to actually know what to correctly describe and give the feel to it.
> 
> I hate it.
> 
> Do you guys ever have that type of problem in you books?



Look up the Lucasville, Ohio prison.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 16, 2014)

I've been to a few rehab places and prisons (not for myself). Most prisons amd jails look exactly as depicted in the movies, but each prison looks different depending on the level of prison it is. Rehab places vary A LOT in appearance


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm thinking about reposting a piece of writing I have been reworking.


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## Tyrael (Jan 17, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm thinking about reposting a piece of writing I have been reworking.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm at 75,000 words 

That's actually a record for me


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## Risyth (Jan 18, 2014)

How many do you plan on having?


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 18, 2014)

Around 80/82,000. Maybe less. I'm on my final chapters anyway.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 18, 2014)

My book is probably going to have 240000 with the rate I'm going. I have way too much ground to cover. 

Keep going MFer


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## Speedy Jag. (Jan 18, 2014)

I'll have writers block too much

no staying power

easily distracted

not disciplined enough


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## Lord Yu (Jan 18, 2014)

I have ADHD and major Depression. Distraction is no excuse!


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## Risyth (Jan 18, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Around 80/82,000. Maybe less. I'm on my final chapters anyway.



I see. Well, good luck. I'll be with you in a few...


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## Galo de Lion (Jan 18, 2014)

I find World-building to be my favourite part of making a story. I mentioned a story involving the Ocean earlier, so I'll go into more detail. I have two ideas for ocean-based stories. One is about the end of the World due to the Oceans turing to blood and sea monsters rising, and the other is a science fantasay that I'm not confident yet enough to mention on he internet (I'm afriad someone might take the idea).


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2014)

World building has taken the most effort. I can't tell you how many times I've had to scrap something because I fleshed out a part of my world.


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## Bluebeard (Jan 19, 2014)

Yeah, I'm currently on the world-building stage for my novel. Right now, I'm just trying to figure out what works and what doesn't.

I've been watching this thread for a while, so I figured I join in on the discussion.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 19, 2014)

Do you have a rough idea of some of the world youve built?


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## Speedy Jag. (Jan 19, 2014)

What's the best advice for World building? 

For example I may want to have a mystery based around something scientific but after thinking about it might not work when some reveals come in later...


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 19, 2014)

Explain nothing and let the readers figure it out


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 19, 2014)

Well it really all begins with what kind of story you want to tell. 

Does your story take place in our world? If so what time period? Or a different world entirely?


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## Speedy Jag. (Jan 19, 2014)

One storyline I'd like to do but never got round to is more of a kids book based on birds of paradise.

So it's an avian world but kooky bird rules.

I have sci-fi ideas and maybe looking into developing a traditional native story into something possibly kid based as well.

But yeah get that in so Pixar and Disney have to pay me to get the rights to a movie...


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 19, 2014)

You know, if they make my book into a movie, I would want to see and edit the script so they won't fuck it up like the Mortal Instruments and A Series of Unfortunate Events.


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## Speedy Jag. (Jan 19, 2014)

Shit I remember I was actually writing a script and got some drawings too years ago.

I think I lost them.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> You know, if they make my book into a movie, I would want to see and edit the script so they won't fuck it up like the Mortal Instruments and A Series of Unfortunate Events.



You'd need a helluva lawyer. Publishing companies tend to handle those kinds of deals.


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## Bluebeard (Jan 19, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Do you have a rough idea of some of the world youve built?



Yeah.

Basically it's set on a continent called the Mainland by it's people. The Manakori Empire controls this continent.

 In this world, every human being has something called mana. Mana is kind of like elemental chakra from Naruto in that sense, but for most people, it means nothing but creating a few sparks or moving a small pebble. There are six elemental domains known to man that people can use; winter, fire, air, earth, water, and iron. These elements have both spirtual and physical sides in which a person can be trained in. The spirtual discipline is called Vis or Mind, while the physical is Artes or weaving. Most commoners have control over one discipline, while high-born have the talent to learn both disciplines.

This is where clans come in. The clans are families who have particularly strong Mana-users in their bloodlines. They're considered the royalty and nobles of the Empire. There are six strongest clans, each coming from one of the six elements. These clans are the rulers of the Empire. To keep balance within the Empire, a Cycle of Power was established. Seasons on the Mainland normally last very long, at least fifty years in duration. The change of seasons directly correlates to the strength of Mana-users, so whenever a clan's season comes along, they take control of the Empire until the end of their season and then the position of Emperor goes to another clan. Noticeably, the Manakori Empire doesn't have the standard four seasons, instead they have six (based on the Hindu seasons) which consist of spring (earth), summer (fire), monsoon (air), autumn (iron), prevernal (before winter), and winter (ice). 

There are also the Mantrim who are kind of like a mixture of Knights and Samurai. They're warriors who have trained their bodies and elemental powers to become deadly weapons of war for the Empire. They wear specially-crafted armor from a mysterious crystal found in this world known as Shardenesse, which enhances their elemental abilities. They're also sworn to obey a doctrine known as the Mantra which basically declares them as honorable.

Tl;dr it's a High Fantasy world where Avatar: The Last Airbender meets Game of Thrones set in a vaguely Imperial China-inspired Empire.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 19, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> You know, if they make my book into a movie, I would want to see and edit the script so they won't fuck it up like the Mortal Instruments and A Series of Unfortunate Events.


Then they'll hope it's still popular after your death.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 19, 2014)

Holy shit Blue, that sounds awesome.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 19, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> You'd need a helluva lawyer. Publishing companies tend to handle those kinds of deals.



Why can't things just be simple? 



I've noticed that my writing has gotten progressively better since writing this book.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> You know, if they make my book into a movie, I would want to see and edit the script so they won't fuck it up like the Mortal Instruments and A Series of Unfortunate Events.



Mortal Instruments wasn't really that good to begin with.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2014)

If someone options your story for a movie, on the whole you're pretty much out of the process anyway.



Lord Yu said:


> You'd need a helluva lawyer. Publishing companies tend to handle those kinds of deals.



Don't think that's true actually - the publishing company owns the rights to publish the story in novel form, but pretty sure the author retains the rights to the story.

Might be wrong though.


----------



## Buskuv (Jan 19, 2014)

Unless you have enough sway (you won't) to make your input part of the contract, you'll be completely out of the equation.

You sell the rights to your story; you don't negotiate a deal to help make the movie.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

Neil Gaiman has that sway, but he also fucks a rockstar and writers for Doctor Who...so it's not like he's the average writer.


----------



## Buskuv (Jan 19, 2014)

That's what I mean.

Very few people have the sway (whether it's the raw talent, the coinpurse, or the recognition), so don't ever really expect to have it, either.


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2014)

And there's some cases where (it seems) the original writer should have just stayed well away.

I love Urasawa, I really do, but the first 20th Century Boys movie was severely bloated. A story like that really needed to be heavily cut down and restructured if it was to have any chance of succeeding as a film.


----------



## Buskuv (Jan 19, 2014)

That, too.

That usually comes from a stupidly popular writer, though.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

A few pages back I remember you guys were talking about sex scenes and how you handle them. I meant to post this tidbit from "Joy of Writing Sex" because it seemed that some people were into this idea that just taking from their own good sex life was enough to make the scenes worthwhile and worth reading. 



> 1. A sex scene is not a sex manual.
> 2. A good sex scene does not have to be about good sex.
> 3. It's okay--really!--to be sexually aroused by your own writing.
> 4. Your fear is your best friend.
> ...



Number five is kind of confusing without the context the book puts it in, but basically it means that we should find your characters engaging and that is what will make us care about their sex lives. 

I would strongly recommend this book for anyone who will be writing sex scenes. It's a good read and educational because it goes into thoughts by several famous authors like Updike and shit. 

And now it's on Kindle, which it wasn't a while back.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 19, 2014)

I disagree with number 8.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 19, 2014)

I disagree with 4 and 8-10


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I disagree with number 8.



You're probably misunderstanding it. They don't have to want each other, but they have to want something. If you have a character that doesn't have some goal then they're at greater risk of being passive and being pushed from event to event or just being boring. 



Malicious Friday said:


> I disagree with 4 and 8-10


Fear keeps you conscious of what you're doing and careful. The most dangerous time for any art form is when you're complacent with what you're doing. 

Not sure how you can disagree with the others. If you write sex without concern for characters or plot (because the plot just being sex is kind of silly) then you're just wasting page space.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2014)

I'd argue 9 is the most important point there.

Just having a sex scene for the sake of the sex is fine if you're writing erotica, but otherwise it's like any other major point of action. It needs to be adding something.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

Even erotica needs a plot outside of the sex. It can be an erotica where some form of drama happens that isn't directly related to penises and vaginae.


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Even erotica needs a plot outside of the sex. It can be an erotica where some form of drama happens that isn't directly related to penises and vaginae.



Well in erotica, the sex is kinda the point of it. It's what the readers are therefore. The plot tends to be there to enable the sex scenes to happen within some sort of structured narrative - the narrative is there to service the sex.

In anything else, the sex scenes serve the narrative. It's really the line I'd draw between the two of them.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Well in erotica, the sex is kinda the point of it. It's what the readers are therefore. The plot tends to be there to enable the sex scenes to happen within some sort of structured narrative - the narrative is there to service the sex.
> 
> In anything else, the sex scenes serve the narrative. It's really the line I'd draw between the two of them.



What I mean is that if there's a story where some woman becomes a prostitute to pay for her sister's legal defense, that's something other than "these two people have a lot of sex and then sometimes talk inbetween the sex". 

We just need a reason for the sex to be happening, even if it's not something we go into much.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 19, 2014)

I interpreted number 8 as them wanting to knock boots intensely. Wanting to kiss and touch and fuck, all intensely all the time. Thats not how it is in real life.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I interpreted number 8 as them wanting to knock boots intensely. Wanting to kiss and touch and fuck, all intensely all the time. Thats not how it is in real life.



Not how she meant it, she offers like page explanations for each one. That's where I got the one I explained in the original post.


----------



## crazymtf (Jan 19, 2014)

Hahaha number 3 is the best. One time I wrote a scene and then proceeded to go and do it =>


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Hahaha number 3 is the best. One time I wrote a scene and then proceeded to go and do it =>



The last one I wrote was kind of depressing, but I kind of went by this book as a guide and everyone who's seen it claims it's pretty solid. 

I'm actually in the midst of writing at least a make out scene right now and the fun thing is that this one is meant to be played for comedy. The main character is a bit crazy.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 19, 2014)

Off topic, but does this section have a moderator? The typo in the title of my thread is annoying the everliving shit of my inner grammar nazi.


----------



## Bluebeard (Jan 19, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Holy shit Blue, that sounds awesome.



Thanks man .

I was a bit afraid that nobody would like the concept. I'm glad that at least one person thinks it's kind of cool.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Off topic, but does this section have a moderator? The typo in the title of my thread is annoying the everliving shit of my inner grammar nazi.



The moderator just posted in this thread earlier.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 19, 2014)

Nah Blue your world sounds pretty awesome. I'd love to learn more about it.

Who the hells the Mod?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> That, too.
> 
> That usually comes from a stupidly popular writer, though.


Him ^ **


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 19, 2014)

bad sex scenes made me drop Altered Carbon entirely


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> bad sex scenes made me drop Altered Carbon entirely



What is Altered Carbon?


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2014)

A book from the Takeshi Kovacs trilogy. At least that's what I'm assuming what he's talking about.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> A book from the Takeshi Kovacs trilogy. At least that's what I'm assuming what he's talking about.



I guess there's a lot of bad sex happening.


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2014)

Yeah, by Richard Morgan. People complained a lot about the amount of gay sex in his fantasy novel The Steel Remains, but I assumed that was homophobia rather than because of the quality of the writing.



~Avant~ said:


> Off topic, but does this section have a moderator? The typo in the title of my thread is annoying the everliving shit of my inner grammar nazi.



What typo?


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 20, 2014)

Would you guys ever break the fourth wall? 

I just did, twice: Once to refer to something in a previous chapter while narrating and another time where I wanted another character to correct what I was saying.


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2014)

I generally wouldn't - even as a comedic device it often seems weird. In an actual dramatic work, it just serves to push the readers out of the story and break immersion. Last thing you want a reader to do is take a step back from the action and remember that they are reading a novel.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 20, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Would you guys ever break the fourth wall?
> 
> I just did, twice: Once to refer to something in a previous chapter while narrating and another time where I wanted another character to correct what I was saying.



I have a character who is aware she's in a book. I haven't done anything about it, yet. But her ability to feel the multi-verse allows her to do it.


----------



## Bluebeard (Jan 20, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Would you guys ever break the fourth wall?
> 
> I just did, twice: Once to refer to something in a previous chapter while narrating and another time where I wanted another character to correct what I was saying.



I'd personally prefer not too.

If it matches the tone of the story then I think it's fine, though.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2014)

not if your book isn't about Meta


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I guess there's a lot of bad sex happening.



it's a rather famous new sci fi series


And there's just a lot of bad happening.
But the sex scenes are what made me dump it. They're just voyeristic and 50 shades of grey without any of the bondage


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2014)

It's 12 years old at this point, I'd say calling it new is pretty generous.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2014)

I tend to only talk to the audience when I write in the first person.  Breaking the fourth wall  is fine if you're calling attention to themes and stuff. If the metatextual narrative is more important than the surface plot and characters than it's fine.


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2014)

Not sure I agree with that - talking upfront about themes is generally the worst way to deal with themes, I feel, and if you're literally talking straight to the audience to explain them then I'd argue your narrative should be doing a better job of showing them.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2014)

I didn't say talking directly ABOUT the themes. What I'm talking about is kind of hard for me to articulate without an example. At least at the moment.

I guess what I'm talking about is layering.  Making a narrative inside the text and creating an imaginary rapport with the audience. I once did this to highlight the loneliness of a protagonist. I didn't directly talk about themes I just did it by making him talk to the audience like they could respond.


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2014)

Ah, so like a textual version of a soliloquy? That does make more sense.


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> It's 12 years old at this point, I'd say calling it new is pretty generous.



well, it's new in my circles


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 20, 2014)

Thinking I might post the beginning of this thing I'm working on. I thought I posted the draft that it was born out of, but apparently I haven't.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 21, 2014)

I posted that first chapter, it's a little long but I would appreciate someone taking a look at it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 21, 2014)

How do you guys go about naming things? I have a hard time keeping track of all the names I've made up. I tend to make up maybe twenty or thirty new locations each time I draft. As for characters I keep forgetting to add new names to my character list. I'm so disorganized.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 21, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> How do you guys go about naming things? I have a hard time keeping track of all the names I've made up. I tend to make up maybe twenty or thirty new locations each time I draft. As for characters I keep forgetting to add new names to my character list. I'm so disorganized.



I write about real places. Super easy.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 21, 2014)

But what about character names?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 21, 2014)

If I like the sound of something I just go with it. Or if has some connection to other parts of the story I go with it.


----------



## Bluebeard (Jan 21, 2014)

It really depends on the setting for me. In my Fantasy World, I normally make up my own names for characters or give them names that I think appropriately fit the character's personality or purpose. For example, if a character is supposed to be a hardened, grizzled warrior then I wouldn't name him something like 'Rover', instead I'd give him a name that sounds 'hard' like 'Rory' or 'Rip'.


----------



## ?clair (Jan 21, 2014)

Though, one shouldn't get too out of hand when naming characters after traits. That just gets really clich?. I wouldn't know that my kid would grow up to be a badass Viking who could play with lightning and name him Thor or something to that effect, unless I was, like, Trelawney (she's a Seer/psychic, to you uninformed folks).

Looking too hard into the meanings of names can be a bad thing if you're searching for a meaning that fits in damn perfectly with the character's personality when they're all grown up.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 21, 2014)

I named them whatever comes to my mind. If I like it, I keep it. And it'll usually be hard for me to change the names. That goes for places as well.


----------



## ?clair (Jan 21, 2014)

On another note, I find post-apocalyptic novels (mostly of the paranormal kind) a treat to read. Yet, it's bloody difficult writing one, since I can't get the mood right.

I guess it really is true when they say, "Good reading is damn hard writing."


----------



## crazymtf (Jan 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I posted that first chapter, it's a little long but I would appreciate someone taking a look at it.



I loved it! Are you done? I'd love a chance to read the entire thing, even review it. Def should publish this one, it has a great start (very interesting).


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 21, 2014)

Since I started the subject might as well talk about my process. I have a pool of a couple made up languages in my head each with their own naming conventions. I also use Japanese names and Christian names mutated by aforementioned made up languages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 21, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> I loved it! Are you done? I'd love a chance to read the entire thing, even review it. Def should publish this one, it has a great start (very interesting).



Thanks but that bit is literally all that's written. I am going to do some more tonight and tomorrow, but this is all pretty fresh stuff with the exception of the first part. Glad you liked it, I see some mistakes already. 



Malicious Friday said:


> I named them whatever comes to my mind. If I like it, I keep it. And it'll usually be hard for me to change the names. That goes for places as well.



I use normal names for characters that aren't Super common. 

-Lissette Metzger
-Annemarie
-Duane 
-Holly Prescott 
-Ava Reynolds 

For places I use real places with interesting names. 

- a bar called Catbird's
- Agora, a coffee shop 
- the Montrose area of Houston 

This works out well for me.


----------



## ?clair (Jan 21, 2014)

Catbird seems more like a quaint, cozy lil' coffee shop. I like.


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## crazymtf (Jan 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks but that bit is literally all that's written. I am going to do some more tonight and tomorrow, but this is all pretty fresh stuff with the exception of the first part. Glad you liked it, I see some mistakes already.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, Mistakes can be fixed though. A dull story is a lot harder to fix. You off to a great start. I'm very picky when it comes to books I wanna read but that little bit made me want to read more. When got more up send away, please.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 21, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I named them whatever comes to my mind. If I like it, I keep it. And it'll usually be hard for me to change the names. That goes for places as well.



I usually have a hard time changing names as well. Currently, I'm trying to change a character name because it's inconsistent with his new nationality.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I use normal names for characters that aren't Super common.
> 
> -Lissette Metzger
> -Annemarie
> ...



I like using more uncommon names or names I made myself:
-Anetelia 
-Semto
-Azarameth
-Adirus
-Andro
-Drein
-Ynma

(I have a lot of A names )

For places:
-Stratoss City
-Dellahoo Distrcit
-Somewhere in the In Between
-Kinhu


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 21, 2014)

I usually use namds I've picked up from my research, or from celebrities or tv/movie characters that I really like.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 21, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Yeah, Mistakes can be fixed though. A dull story is a lot harder to fix. You off to a great start. I'm very picky when it comes to books I wanna read but that little bit made me want to read more. When got more up send away, please.



It's Lissette really, she's exciting to write and I'm guessing exciting to read. She's smart and kind of funny, but also childish and selfish, usually when it doesn't count. She's also got interesting relationships and views. 

For a while there I was beginning to think I didn't have any more good characters in me.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 21, 2014)

You know, CBTK made me ask this: Who is/are your favorite character/s to write in your books?

For me, in my current book, it would be the Four Sovereigns because I like to write how they react to one another. Cryptorium, being the calm one, Cantorium, the angry one, Stratorius, the oblivious/childish one, and Amordius, the strict one. I love them all pek


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 21, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> You know, CBTK made me ask this: Who is/are your favorite character/s to write in your books?
> 
> For me, in my current book, it would be the Four Sovereigns because I like to write how they react to one another. Cryptorium, being the calm one, Cantorium, the angry one, Stratorius, the oblivious/childish one, and Amordius, the strict one. I love them all pek



Dee is easily my favorite out of all the stories and she is probably the one who has appeared the most time in other places. She's the first Nephilim to be the Angel of Death and she's more or less an average goofy teenager with the problems that entails. She's the younger child and gets picked on by her sister and she adores her Dad and I kind of like the average-ness mixed with the supernatural elements that make her up, that's kind of what I to make all of my characters/ None of the humans are really all that average, but they don't feel foreign. 

Then I have Stroud, I haven't used him as much lately, but he's a retired arms dealer who some of the characters use as a connection to get heavier weaponry over the course of the series. He's crude, he's rich and he's a bit of a jackass.


----------



## ?clair (Jan 21, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> You know, CBTK made me ask this: Who is/are your favorite character/s to write in your books?
> 
> For me, in my current book, it would be the Four Sovereigns because I like to write how they react to one another. Cryptorium, being the calm one, Cantorium, the angry one, Stratorius, the oblivious/childish one, and Amordius, the strict one. I love them all pek



They sound like a riot, for sure. What's your book about? 

For me, my favorite character actually tends to be the one who I hated the most while developing. Strange how that happens, right? I suppose it's because my brain is stuck with a particular archetype, and whenever I go against said archetypes, it protests. When it calms down, it realizes that, hey, this character is bloody awesome!


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 22, 2014)

?clair said:


> They sound like a riot, for sure. What's your book about?



They are  Well, mostly Cryptorium and Stratorius.

Here's the summary: 

*1000 B.C.:* As legend goes, whoever bears the Crown of the Four Worlds will become the King of the Four Worlds. Three thousand years ago, one of the Four Sovereigns, Cantorium, waged War on Four Worlds while possessing the Crown after his brother, and predecessor, Stratorium died. He was defeated by the other three Sovereigns and sentenced to life the rest of eternity in the Underworld as a Soul Court. The Crown was split into thirteen pieces and was placed into thirteen human hosts in the Overworld.

*1999:* Melissa doesn't know it yet, but she is the host of the Thirteenth Piece of the Crown. She is taken into protection by a group called the Sons of Gaea located in the Stratoss District of the Middle World. There she learns she is being hunted down by the demon-witch Anetelia and must learn to control the Crown’s power or be sacrificed to the witch’s Beautiful World.


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## ?clair (Jan 22, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> They are  Well, mostly Cryptorium and Stratorius.
> 
> Here's the summary:
> 
> ...



That's certainly a very interesting premise! It'd be a joy to read.

IMO, paranormal YA has gone to crap. I think I'll switch to reading contemporary/fantasy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2014)

?clair said:


> That's certainly a very interesting premise! It'd be a joy to read.
> 
> IMO, paranormal YA has gone to crap. I think I'll switch to reading contemporary/fantasy.



That means you're making bad reading choices. Dan Wells's John Cleaver books are so good that I'm rereading them.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 22, 2014)

?clair said:


> That's certainly a very interesting premise! It'd be a joy to read.
> 
> IMO, paranormal YA has gone to crap. I think I'll switch to reading contemporary/fantasy.



I have the prologue somewhere on the internet somewhere. Wanna read it?


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 22, 2014)

?clair said:


> IMO, paranormal YA has gone to crap. I think I'll switch to reading contemporary/fantasy.



As CTK said, there are plenty of good ones. Just got to dig past the rush of people trying to cash in on Twilight to get there.


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## Risyth (Jan 22, 2014)

How many revisions do you all go through for each chapter? Because I'm still technically on my first.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 23, 2014)

I just write through them all first, if I get writer's block, I go back to previous chapters and just read through them, make corrections and take what I want out and put what I want in. I try not to change too much in the chapters, though. One time I had to redo the entire chapter because I fucked everything up  But it came out better than the first 

Make my book to finish around 85-90,000 words...


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## Risyth (Jan 23, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I just write through them all first, if I get writer's block, I go back to previous chapters and just read through them, make corrections and take what I want out and put what I want in. I try not to change too much in the chapters, though. One time I had to redo the entire chapter because I fucked everything up  But it came out better than the first



If you're like me, then, you'd be surprised when you go back to that first chapter for the third time and say: "Wtf is this?"


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 23, 2014)

Lol, I do that


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## Risyth (Jan 23, 2014)

Then it can't be just one time you've gone back...or is my reading comprehension suffering more than I thought lately?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> How many revisions do you all go through for each chapter? Because I'm still technically on my first.



There isn't going to be some sweet spot where you hit it and all of the revision is just done. Sometimes you will have chapters that just need a little touch here and there to work and other times you have parts where you spend a while and make five or six revisions. I would say that you're going to usually need three revisions of a whole novel or short story, but with a short story since it's shorter it's better to do as many as you can afford without getting stuck in the trap of endless revisions. Things can pretty much always get better, the trick is knowing when to stop. 

The thing I am working on now is something that's very important for me to have turn out well and I don't have much outside help, so I have to go over it over and over again to make sure I made the right choices and to check for continuity. 

You might want to finish the whole thing before you ever revise it though because the mindset needed to do the two things is different and any errors in the story telling will be easier to spot if you're reading it all as one big piece. 

*On an unrelated note...*I have this habit of going to pulling out actors and actresses and just pictures of people off of the internet and making them the basis for my characters looks. Since everything I am working on is modern day (at the moment at least) the hair styles and all of that just work. Right now the story I am working with has two main characters I've introduced and a third I will be bringing in shortly. 

I've pretty much got set looks for the main two girls and the male lead and Death who kind of crosses in and out of stories: 

Lissette: 



Annemarie: 



(The only difference with her is that she has ram horns coming out of either side of her head because she's half succubus) 

Death: 



Duane: 



For this last one he probably looks a bit too old, but the character would look like a younger him (Donald Glover). 

The rest of them are pretty much spot on. I guess it's not even about wanting someone to play the characters as it is having a realistic appearance for them in my mind based on someone. There might be minor differences like eye color, but these people are the gist of what the character looks like.


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## Risyth (Jan 23, 2014)

Your logic is sound and I agree with you. Unfortunately, I revise by chapter because my chapters are so long. You might say it's a downside, but I'm at a point where I can't get past making edits to my chapters as I write them, so when I get to the revisions, it's as if I'm revising for a second time. I don't think I'm far enough into everything that I have to worry about the difficulties of my plot remaining coherent, though.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 23, 2014)

I've been over my prologue about 6 times now. I'm mostly changing things to fit what I say later on in the book, little typos, atomic typos, changing around fight scenes, adding more narration...the good stuff :33

Since I draw characters, I might post the drawings of my characters here so you guys can see what they look like :33 Or just post a link to my art thread. Whichever works 

On that note, when I go and describe my characters based off of what I draw, I tend to miss a bunch of small details and never go back to them (  -.-) I suck, lol.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 23, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I've been over my prologue about 6 times now. I'm mostly changing things to fit what I say later on in the book, little typos, atomic typos, changing around fight scenes, adding more narration...the good stuff :33



This is kind of why I think it is best to wait until the end because by that time you have at least the basic idea of where you're going with everything down and laid out. Maybe there will be changes later on, but you can make them in tandem so that things fit better and work more on themes and consistency. 



> Since I draw characters, I might post the drawings of my characters here so you guys can see what they look like :33 Or just post a link to my art thread. Whichever works
> 
> On that note, when I go and describe my characters based off of what I draw, I tend to miss a bunch of small details and never go back to them (  -.-) I suck, lol.



You don't really have to describe a character at all if you're not really wanting to do that, it just depends on the kind of writing that you're doing and how you feel about description. Some authors don't tend to give a huge drawn out description of characters, like Stephen King (from what I know of him) doesn't. 

I hit the high points and will sometimes revisit the small details over time. Right now the most fully described person in what I am writing is the mother character who is barely in the story that long. There are really odd things that I pick up on when I do description, like I remember writing about one character being jealous of another character's cute chubby legs and I remember another member told me that they described a character's lips as being like shallow cups of wine. 

Things like that kind of stick with you.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 23, 2014)

I _like_ describing characters . I like to show how each one is different in their own ways, even twins  I usually describe what clothes they have on all the way to what type of nose they have. I really want the readers to get a good picture of the character I made.

I'm usually like: "Lookiet me! I made this and you will enjoy it or die!"


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## Risyth (Jan 23, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I _like_ describing characters . I like to show how each one is different in their own ways, even twins  I usually describe what clothes they have on all the way to what type of nose they have. I really want the readers to get a good picture of the character I made.
> 
> I'm usually like: "Lookiet me! I made this and you will enjoy it or die!"



Sometimes reader creativity is a good thing, though. 

...ah, but I do what you do anyway. lol


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 23, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I _like_ describing characters . I like to show how each one is different in their own ways, even twins  I usually describe what clothes they have on all the way to what type of nose they have. I really want the readers to get a good picture of the character I made.
> 
> I'm usually like: "Lookiet me! I made this and you will enjoy it or die!"



Be careful not to fall into a dangerous trap of falling in love with your own voice and dragging things out that don't need to be there. You might make up or work out a lot of things about characters or the world that never actually appear on the page. A good example is Dumbledore being gay, it's authors word but it's never actually anywhere in the book. 

Tyrael and I were talking the other day about how sometimes characters will even have secrets that you, writing them, might know but the people reading it will never find out. I kind of want to take my characters that deep and use it in their characterization.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 23, 2014)

I have secrets like those. It feels like having little jokes where only I know the punchline.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 25, 2014)

Finally hit that speed bump where I am forced to switch narrators and it's proving to be a bit of a challenge because I had a lot more practice with the other character and her feelings and thoughts. I'm kind of determined to give these two characters near equal weight and despite what people say I've seen the dual narrator thing work (like in Gone Girl it was wonderfully done). 

I just need to make sure that I map the character's feelings out better and make sure that they're individuals, but there's some fear that it could get all fucked.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Jan 25, 2014)

Putting the apocolyptic ocean storyaside for a while (not forever) to work on a science fiction story. Most of the solar system has been colonised and explored, then a big threat to the solar system comes along. I'm still working on the idea, but I find it easy to write.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 25, 2014)

TTGL said:


> Putting the apocolyptic ocean storyaside for a while (not forever) to work on a science fiction story. Most of the solar system has been colonised and explored, then a big threat to the solar system comes along. I'm still working on the idea, but I find it easy to write.



That seems to be a bit vague. I actually wanted to do something very space opera like and kind of in the same vein as Xenosaga. It was creepy, unsettling and just fun (at least the first one was). 

But yeah, that sounds a bit like a space opera that you're describing.


----------



## Risyth (Jan 25, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Finally hit that speed bump where I am forced to switch narrators and it's proving to be a bit of a challenge because I had a lot more practice with the other character and her feelings and thoughts. I'm kind of determined to give these two characters near equal weight and despite what people say I've seen the dual narrator thing work (like in Gone Girl it was wonderfully done).
> 
> I just need to make sure that I map the character's feelings out better and make sure that they're individuals, but there's some fear that it could get all fucked.



It doesn't have to be a speed bump if you don't want it to be one.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 25, 2014)

Risyth said:


> It doesn't have to be a speed bump if you don't want it to be one.



Well I've gone back and kind of found her voice in all of the mess. It's going to need some tweaking, but I think there's a distinct difference between her and the other character. Most of it is in the things they deem worthy of telling the reader. One is a very technical person and the other one is more emotional, yet the technical one connects better with people while the other tends to be more free spirited.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 25, 2014)

I did multiple narrators before I switched over to third person narration.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 25, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I did multiple narrators before I switched over to third person narration.



I might actually end up doing multiples and some third, but I think I might try to keep it down to two narrators in first person and some parts in third when there's no one to see them. 

The novel that's done has a mix of third limited and third omniscient


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## tari101190 (Jan 26, 2014)

Just finished my Simpsons spec script draft. Need go over it again before sending it off.

And just finished an early draft of the 1st act of my 'novel-ish'. It's a full length novel, but I want it illustrated, like a graphic novel.

I already wrote a prologue before the 1st act which has 4 differing characters POV's going over the same event from different perspectives. The prologue in total is 2x the length of the 1st act, but because it's going over the same material four times, so I don't feel like I should think of it as longer as the 1st act really. Each POV is like half the length of the first act on it's own. Probably sounds confusing.

I was gonna ask for advice if I should start editing & rewriting what I've written so far before moving onto the 2nd and 3rd act, but I think it's important that I write out the entire story before going back over it. I think I should stick to finishing the story first. I already plotted it all out before I started writing so I know where I'm going.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Jan 26, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That seems to be a bit vague. I actually wanted to do something very space opera like and kind of in the same vein as Xenosaga. It was creepy, unsettling and just fun (at least the first one was).
> 
> But yeah, that sounds a bit like a space opera that you're describing.



It probably is the space opera kind of Sci-Fi, as I'm not going to take it too seriously. As for being vague, I'm still not confident enough to go into too much detail over the internet. I will say that several planets and moons in our system won't be in our system anymore by the end of it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 26, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> Just finished my Simpsons spec script draft. Need go over it again before sending it off.
> 
> And just finished an early draft of the 1st act of my 'novel-ish'. It's a full length novel, but I want it illustrated, like a graphic novel.
> 
> I already wrote a prologue before the 1st act which has 4 differing characters POV's going over the same event from different perspectives. The prologue in total is 2x the length of the 1st act, but because it's going over the same material four times, so I don't feel like I should think of it as longer as the 1st act really. Each POV is like half the length of the first act on it's own. Probably sounds confusing.



That sounds like a kind of bad idea. Repetition of that degree could be fixed by just doing the prologue in third person to take care of all the information and get the bases covered. Also prologues are kind of a bad idea when they're that long because a lot of people tend to skip them and publishers and editors tend to hate them. If you're going to do one it needs to be necessary, set apart from the rest of the book in some way. Like it needs to be in a different perspective, different time, place or something that makes it not just be a first chapter. 

Unless there's a super good reason it's probably a bad idea to repeat things. 



> I was gonna ask for advice if I should start editing & rewriting what I've written so far before moving onto the 2nd and 3rd act, but I think it's important that I write out the entire story before going back over it. I think I should stick to finishing the story first. I already plotted it all out before I started writing so I know where I'm going.



The reason why I hear people claim that it's best to do it at the end is that it's hard to switch out of editing mode once you get started and it can slow the writing down. 



TTGL said:


> It probably is the space opera kind of Sci-Fi, as I'm not going to take it too seriously. As for being vague, I'm still not confident enough to go into too much detail over the internet. I will say that several planets and moons in our system won't be in our system anymore by the end of it.


Well I don't see many of those set in our system, of course that's not my thing so I don't much about them.


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## tari101190 (Jan 26, 2014)

> If you're going to do one it needs to be necessary, set apart from the rest of the book in some way. Like it needs to be in a different perspective, different time, place or something that makes it not just be a first chapter.


It's not a prologue like you're assuming. It's not a back story or set in the past or anything like that. I am only using the word prologue because it happens 'before' the main story I want to write, and don't know how else to describe it. I'm just trying to be vague, because I can't really say too much at the moment because of stuff.

There are 4 'stories' about 4 different guys on their own. I haven't written these out yet, as these are standalone and don't feed into the main story directly so will tackle them after.

Then there is a story where they all meet and something happens. That is what I'm referring to as the prologue here. This is important and absolutely necessary. Nothing after this point would make any sense otherwise. This is the actual start of the main story. I guess prologue is the wrong word.



> Unless there's a super good reason it's probably a bad idea to repeat things.


There is a super good reason.

I may do a third person perspective version, but for now just wanted to write it out from 4 perspectives because it's supposed to happen when the 4 characters meet for the first time. Each perspective is very different. They just start off similar.

Then the main big big story happens. This is far longer than the others parts. This is all from one joint perspective.

This isn't actually a novel, so terms like prologue and third person maybe don't really fit too well I suppose. I just wanted advice sometimes so thought I could get away with posting here while being vague.

I may try to be clearer and see how I can describe it later.

Writing out the main story is helping me 'learn' more about the characters, which is helping me with to come up with ideas for the standalone stories which happen before the main story.

I'm seeing how they interact with each other and how they deal with things, so I will better know how they think and function on their own.



> The reason why I hear people claim that it's best to do it at the end is that it's hard to switch out of editing mode once you get started and it can slow the writing down.


Okay. If that is common then yeah I would rather wait till the end before going back over it then. I don't want to loose this drive I have at the moment. I've made minor changes going back. So I think I'll be fine.


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## Tyrael (Jan 26, 2014)

Really useful, but really stressful.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 26, 2014)

here is an excerpt of a short story i wrote:


ill fucking kill you

in the worst way possible

you cling like a leech onto my skin

i dyed my hair, got a tan, i even changed my name to escape you

yet you cling and grab hold of my drying skin 

like a leech

in the worst way possible

and ill fucking kill you


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jan 27, 2014)

With 267 pages in Word, 83,433 words, 3 parts and 36 chapters, my debut book _The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World_ is complete!

TIME FOR EDITING!! 

While off the computer, I'm doing an outline for its final part and sequel:_The Four Worlds: A New World Order_. 

Also, this technically isn't my first book. It's my third and third completed one, but it's going to be my debut

_______________________________________

And a question: I write in present tense, but when I get reviews, other writers tell me I should revise in past tense for some reason. Why is that? And what tense do you write in?


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 27, 2014)

Yeah - Brandon Sanderson's debut book was actually his 14th. Persistence is defintely key to this nonsense.


----------



## Buskuv (Jan 27, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Yeah - Brandon Sanderson's debut book was actually his 14th. Persistence is defintely key to this nonsense.



Do what now?


----------



## Tyrael (Jan 27, 2014)

I don't know what you're asking, but I nonetheless disagree.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 27, 2014)

Do you guys ever fancast the characters in your story? I find that it helps me out tremendously when describing mannerisms and writing dialogue when I actually have a face to put to my characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Do you guys ever fancast the characters in your story? I find that it helps me out tremendously when describing mannerisms and writing dialogue when I actually have a face to put to my characters.



Missed the last page I see.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 27, 2014)

Holy shit. Who is the girl you selected to play Death CBTK? I think im in love lol


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Holy shit. Who is the girl you selected to play Death CBTK? I think im in love lol



That's the only problem since I don't use just actors sometimes I can't get a name and just have a single picture of a person. But it's enough for me to go off of normally.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 27, 2014)

Damn i would google image search that chick if i had my laptop


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Damn i would google image search that chick if i had my laptop



I think I tried and it just pulled up the Chive. I kind of have something different in my for the succubus character, but a lot bout her might be changing soon.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 27, 2014)

Not to be judgmental,(But admittedly I am very much being) That picture is so hipster it hurts.







Anyway, topic relevant. I finally found an appropriate name for my story's Dragon!(That is trope dragon not literal dragon)


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 27, 2014)

Does not compute


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## Lord Yu (Jan 27, 2014)

Hipster comment or second part?

If first, then meh.

If second,


----------



## Risyth (Jan 27, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> With 267 pages in Word, 83,433 words, 3 parts and 36 chapters, my debut book _The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World_ is complete!
> 
> TIME FOR EDITING!!
> 
> ...



Congrats, Nui. I'm only on chapter...15, really. I've got a little of 16 on hold. And it's my first too. Can't believe you have three. Well, I take it you guys have been writing for much longer than I.

Past tense is less rough and unpleasant than present tense, usually. I write in past unless something is happening at the exact moment that the narrator is describing it. Even then, it's less natural than the narrator subconsciously looking back over what has happened a couple of seconds after the fact.

Compare: 



> The young girl’s purple bangs fluttered in the breeze. Her bright, purple eyes glimmered widely with the utmost excitement. Her blue mini-sundress neatly fitted her knees and covered her neck as she tightly tugged her twitching hands at its waist: grinning sharply...eager to completely _ruin_ her helpless foe.




vs



> The young girl’s purple bangs flutter in the breeze. Her bright, purple eyes glimmer widely with the utmost excitement. Her blue mini-sundress neatly fits her knees and covers her neck as she tightly tugs her twitching hands at its waist: grinning sharply...eager to completely _ruin_ her helpless foe.



The first might seem as if it goes into present, but if you read it as "...she tightly tugged her twitching hands at the waist while grinning sharply, eager to..." it's legit.

Sometimes a side-by-side view makes things more clear. The inferiority of present tense is even clearer in first person narration (even though the latter might be more grammatically correct, depending on the scene...but we ain't in high school no damn longer):



> I knew how she felt then.
> 
> After Brice threatened her, she didn’t dare say anything back to him. She was so fearful, she never would’ve even dreamed of it. The nervous girl was struggling hard to keep her soft, blue eyes from wavering, but the sense of utter anxiety straining her was all too obvious to me. Flore was so scared that as her pale face reddened in the sun, she began to inch herself away from him, little by little—well in advance.
> 
> It must've been a subconscious thing.




vs



> I know how she feels now.
> 
> After Brice threatened her, she doesn’t dare say anything back to him. She's so fearful, she never would’ve even dreamed of it. The nervous girl struggles hard to keep her soft, blue eyes from wavering, but the sense of utter anxiety straining her is all too obvious to me. Flore is so scared that as her pale face reddens in the sun, she begins to inch herself away from him, little by little—well in advance.
> 
> It must be a subconscious thing.


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## Risyth (Jan 27, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> With 267 pages in Word, 83,433 words, 3 parts and 36 chapters, my debut book _The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World_ is complete!
> 
> TIME FOR EDITING!!
> 
> ...



Congrats, Nui. I'm only on chapter...15, really. I've got a little of 16 on hold. And it's my first too. Can't believe you have three. Well, I take it you guys have been writing for much longer than I.

Past tense is less rough and unpleasant than present tense, usually. I write in past unless something is happening at the exact moment that the narrator is describing it. Even then, it's less natural than the narrator subconsciously looking back over what has happened a couple of seconds after the fact.

Compare: 



> The young girl?s purple bangs fluttered in the breeze. Her blue mini-sundress neatly fitted her knees and covered her neck as she tightly tugged her twitching hands at the waist: grinning sharply...eager to completely _ruin_ her helpless foe.



vs



> The young girl?s purple bangs flutter in the breeze. Her blue mini-sundress neatly fits her knees and covers her neck as she tightly tugs her twitching hands at the waist: grinning sharply...eager to completely _ruin_ her helpless foe.



The first might seem as if it goes into present, but if you read it as "...she tightly tugged her twitching hands at the waist while grinning sharply, eager to..." it's legit.

Sometimes a side-by-side view makes things more clear. The inferiority of present tense is even clearer in first person narration (even though the latter might be more grammatically correct, depending on the scene...but we ain't in high school no damn longer):



> I knew how she felt then.
> 
> After Brice threatened her, she didn?t dare say anything back to him. She was so fearful, she never would?ve even dreamed of it. The nervous girl was struggling hard to keep her soft, blue eyes from wavering, but the sense of utter anxiety straining her was all too obvious to me. Flore was so scared that as her pale face reddened in the sun, she began to inch herself away from him, little by little?well in advance.
> 
> It must've been a subconscious thing.



vs



> I know how she feels now.
> 
> After Brice threatened her, she doesn?t dare say anything back to him. She's so fearful, she never would?ve even dreamed of it. The nervous girl struggles hard to keep her soft, blue eyes from wavering, but the sense of utter anxiety straining her is all too obvious to me. Flore is so scared that as her pale face reddens in the sun, she begins to inch herself away from him, little by little?well in advance.
> 
> It must be a subconscious thing.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 27, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Congrats, Nui. I'm only on chapter...15, really. I've got a little of 16 on hold. And it's my first too. Can't believe you have three. Well, I take it you guys have been writing for much longer than I.



I've only been writing since the 9th grade. I'm a college freshman now  I'm 18.



Risyth said:


> Past tense is less rough and unpleasant than present tense, usually. I write in past unless something is happening at the exact moment that the narrator is describing it. Even then, it's less natural than the narrator subconsciously looking back over what has happened a couple of seconds after the fact.
> 
> Compare:
> 
> ...



But I still don't understand why it's so inferior.


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## Risyth (Jan 27, 2014)

Oh...well, you've still got a lead on me.

Doesn't the present-tense look a little...shittier in those paragraphs? It speaks as if everything is happening at the exact point of its being said, which doesn't allow for any real variation. Plus, it sounds less cool.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 27, 2014)

I actually want to be different. I never really liked past tense writing. I never feel like I'm in there with the book. But that's just me... That's really the reason I write in present tense... and it's easier for me... 

Here's how I write (excerpt from the book):



> A feathery tendril lassos Melissa’s neck and pulls her back down the hall. She struggles to break free, ripping at the tendril choking her. Her face turns red. The tendril is attached to Devin’s chest. It sucks her in. Devin’s mouth unhinges like a snake showing several rows of pointed, drill-like teeth that rotate in place. Melissa’s head nears the mouth of her long-time friend. Is this really how she is going to die?


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I actually want to be different. I never really liked past tense writing. I never feel like I'm in there with the book. But that's just me... That's really the reason I write in present tense... and it's easier for me...
> 
> Here's how I write (excerpt from the book):



The tense choice reminds me of a CYOA for some reason. I don't think that's a bad thing if it's your style. But in general, the present does limit the author to describing one specific moment in time (the current) at a time.

If you like the different style, though, why'd you ask about the past tense? Honestly, the present is only glaringly inferior in 1st person stories.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 28, 2014)

Because people kept telling me I should write in past tense and I'm just always like, "NO."


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

It's really just based on whether or not your scene is in the past, even earlier, or the present. That's what you should look for when writing your scenes. Everything shouldn't be in one tense if there are actions from other tenses.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Past tense can seem more natural and it will annoy people to read things written in present tense, but there's nothing wrong with either. Most of my recent stuff is present tense and first person and it works well. Also gives the actions performed an immediate feel. 

Sure, what ever it is you started out writing and reading will sound more natural, but it doesn't make it the only way.



Risyth said:


> It's really just based on whether or not your scene is in the past, even earlier, or the present. That's what you should look for when writing your scenes. Everything shouldn't be in one tense if there are actions from other tenses.


The story will still be present tense. If I write about them thinking back on something they'll refer to it in the moment as if they're thinking back on it, but the tense of most of the story won't change.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 28, 2014)

I write flashbacks and stuff that happened previous to the current events of the plot in past tense. Because... past. Lol.


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Past tense can seem more natural and it will annoy people to read things written in present tense, but there's nothing wrong with either. Most of my recent stuff is present tense and first person and it works well. Also gives the actions performed an immediate feel.
> 
> Sure, what ever it is you started out writing and reading will sound more natural, but it doesn't make it the only way.
> 
> ...



You mean a flashback?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> You mean a flashback?


I don't write flashbacks really, but if I were to do one in one of these stories that was written in the present tense it would probably be short and still be in present tense because they could be telling the story to someone and their emotions about the events and their thoughts about it would be told by the character in present tense. The action of the flash back would be in the past, but their thoughts about it and them talking about it happen in the current time.

But flashbacks are usually a weak tool from what I feel anyway, they tend to take away from the current forward momentum of the story and deal with things that could be shown through current action. 



> Duane and I have been friends since Miss Swanson?s third grade class when the seating chart changed and we were partnered up to learn cursive. That same year my horns were coming in and he was the one of the few kids who didn?t tease me about them. It wasn?t until sixth grade that I kissed him when he was tried to stand up for me and got punched in the face. Neither of us ever officially asked the other out?we were just kind of dating after that. And here we are three years later.



That's about as much of a flashback as I give the reader thus far and I am trying to keep it that way for the sake of brevity and forward momentum.


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't write flashbacks really, but if I were to do one in one of these stories that was written in the present tense it would probably be short and still be in present tense because they could be telling the story to someone and their emotions about the events and their thoughts about it would be told by the character in present tense. The action of the flash back would be in the past, but their thoughts about it and them talking about it happen in the current time.
> 
> But flashbacks are usually a weak tool from what I feel anyway, they tend to take away from the current forward momentum of the story and deal with things that could be shown through current action.
> 
> ...



I wasn't referring to flashbacks, however. I mean when the entire story is set in the past tense because the narrators are describing events right after they've happened. Thus, it's as if they're subconsciously informing the reader of their actions rather than subconsciously repeating their actions to themselves, in their own mind. 

Not sure how often it's done, but it's a way to incorporate the more effective past tense.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I wasn't referring to flashbacks, however. I mean when the entire story is set in the past tense because the narrators are describing events right after they've happened. Thus, it's as if they're subconsciously informing the reader of their actions rather than subconsciously repeating their actions to themselves, in their own mind.
> 
> Not sure how often it's done, but it's a way to incorporate the more effective past tense.



But that again depends on the style the person is writing in. Some things pretty much have to be past tense, like journal entry stories. The kind of thing I am writing is more like the reader is reading the thoughts of the person a they have them and as things happen.

To say that one is correct and the other isn't is really just a matter of opinion and what you're used to. A year and a half ago present tense would have bothered me to read or write, now it does neither.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 28, 2014)

I have yet to see a book written in present tense.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I have yet to see a book written in present tense.



So you've never heard of the Hunger Games series?


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> But that again depends on the style the person is writing in. Some things pretty much have to be past tense, like journal entry stories. The kind of thing I am writing is more like the reader is reading the thoughts of the person a they have them and as things happen.
> 
> To say that one is correct and the other isn't is really just a matter of opinion and what you're used to. A year and a half ago present tense would have bothered me to read or write, now it does neither.



Yes, I agree. That's what I said. But at the same time, a certain tense has to always be used in a particular scene. If you use the wrong tense for what you're trying to convey, it's ungrammatical.

Even so, past tense is regarded as sounding better than present tense, especially if they're the only styles used throughout the entire story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Yes, I agree. That's what I said. But at the same time, a certain tense has to always be used in a particular scene. If you use the wrong tense for what you're trying to convey, it's ungrammatical.
> 
> Even so, past tense is regarded as sounding better than present tense, especially if they're the only styles used throughout the entire story.



I wouldn't say so. Past tense isn't just regarded as sounding better because they're stylistic things. Sometimes it will seem more natural to have things written in present tense because of how the author writes. That's how I first got into writing present tense because of a fan fiction piece I did that only looked right in it.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 28, 2014)

I used to write a lot in present tense. I was going to write a novel in present tense. I screwed up a lot. 

I need to write that novel. But first I need to do some more economic research.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 28, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> So you've never heard of the Hunger Games series?



I read the entire series and I never noticed!! 
Are you sure?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I read the entire series and I never noticed!!
> Are you sure?



I think I would be able to identify present tense. 

Other present tense works that people might know: 

The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood
Fifty Shades of Grey


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I wouldn't say so. Past tense isn't just regarded as sounding better because they're stylistic things. Sometimes it will seem more natural to have things written in present tense because of how the author writes. That's how I first got into writing present tense because of a fan fiction piece I did that only looked right in it.



I'd need an example. There are always exceptions, of course, but on average, present tense is more rigid.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 28, 2014)

I should be done editing my book by the second week of March if I edit a chapter a day  Maybe earlier. I just edited the prologue and chapter 1 today.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I should be done editing my book by the second week of March if I edit a chapter a day  Maybe earlier. I just edited the prologue and chapter 1 today.



That's a super fast estimate. Editing should take longer than writing usually and probably should have some distance from the actual writing time wise.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 28, 2014)

I already know what I want, so it's not going to take long. I've already wrote out a list of revision in my phone and now all I have to do is just do them when I get to that part in the book. Other proofreading will just be going back for typos and grammar mistakes.


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

So, how much 円 you plan to make?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

My editing process is basically reading over the book once to spot edit and get content. I try to look for themes and get all of that stuff down because there might actually be some stuff I didn't plan that's there I can link up (there was some things like this in my novel like water symbolism). 

I kind of got this idea from Stephen King, he actually said that in the case of Carrie all the blood symbolism wasn't entirely intentional. 

Then I look for things I need to move, chapters I need to move around and the like.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> So, how much 円 you plan to make?



I'm guessing that's money, but I don't know...


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 28, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> And a question: I write in present tense, but when I get reviews, other writers tell me I should revise in past tense for some reason. Why is that? And what tense do you write in?


Why? Convention. For me, years of English classes ground it into me. Past tense is my comfort zone; writing in present tense feels awkward.

It kind of depends on who your narrator is and on how you as an author want the book to feel. In my experience, present tense can help immersion, which is great for first-person or a limited knowledge third-person, and affect pace, feeling faster or needing to be faster in present tense.

If present tense works for your story and is your writing style, then don't change it. Let it set you apart.


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## kazuri (Jan 28, 2014)

Anyone go through brandon sandersons creative writing lectures?

Link removed


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

I go out of my way to avoid things like that. I feel as if it'll corrupt my style.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I go out of my way to avoid things like that. I feel as if it'll corrupt my style.



They're not really the kind of things that will change style, they're things about how to make stuff you're doing make sense. Like from a world building standpoint or a character psychology stand point. One of the worst things that people can do with fantasy is assume that they don't have to have any grounds in reality to write it effectively.


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

The slightest sentence of another's story feels as if it's influencing me until I get it out of my head. Even if they're made up on the spot. That's why I'm so happy to be out of English class. And, also, as you said, it's common sense.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> The slightest sentence of another's story feels as if it's influencing me until I get it out of my head. Even if they're made up on the spot. That's why I'm so happy to be out of English class. And, also, as you said, it's common sense.



It's not really common sense, worldbuilding can involve a lot of things that people don't think about, like why rivers run the way they do or why planets are the way they are. For instance the world in Game of Thrones has no moon. I don't remember if it's stated, but if it was how would that work because they wouldn't know what a moon is. 

The planet they live on is on a side axis which is why their winter is all fucked and long and unpredictable. Their tides are solar or something, but these are the kinds of things that you have to think about. Does you planet have two suns? How does that work? How does the planet orbit them and if it does it this way will the planet cook? 

Even though I use the real world I have to use some world building stuff in my stories to figure out why some things are the way they are and why some changes to society occurred. I mean there is a lot of different things that Sanderson teaches in those classes that I've watched videos on, none of it is really specific to teaching style as it is to teaching how to develop things so that they make sense. 

As far as not reading for fear of influence: that's going to do more harm than anything else. You should be reading as much as you can because it's how you learn techniques and get an idea what works, what doesn't and what to do to make your ideas come to life. 

I read things of the type I wouldn't even write--like "All American Girl" and "Handmaid's Tale" and stuff that just enriches ideas and gives me creative ideas that might not have been explored inside of those plots. Even if it's a small plot element that it plants the seed for it can make my story that much better. Outside influence doesn't hurt, it teaches and inspires.


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## Risyth (Jan 28, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's not really common sense, worldbuilding can involve a lot of things that people don't think about, like why rivers run the way they do or why planets are the way they are. For instance the world in Game of Thrones has no moon. I don't remember if it's stated, but if it was how would that work because they wouldn't know what a moon is.
> 
> The planet they live on is on a side axis which is why their winter is all fucked and long and unpredictable. Their tides are solar or something, but these are the kinds of things that you have to think about. Does you planet have two suns? How does that work? How does the planet orbit them and if it does it this way will the planet cook?
> 
> ...



The general concept of doing your research is common sense, though.

I think I'm doing well without reading others' styles. There are other sources of creativity than books, but even then, I like everything of mine to be as unique as possible. So, I won't look for other creators for inspiration. That aside, I don't want authors' proses, specifically, to influence mine over time.


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## Tyrael (Jan 29, 2014)

I don't get style protectionism - influence from other writers is inevitable, so I'm constantly striving to make sure it's as diverse and interesting styles as I can. At the end of the day, it's going to uniquely yours anyway, so why worry about things like that?


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## Buskuv (Jan 29, 2014)

You're deluded if you think your art or writing exists in a vacuum.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 29, 2014)

My mom vacuumed up pieces of torn drawings I did. Does that count?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 29, 2014)

Risyth said:


> The general concept of doing your research is common sense, though.
> 
> I think I'm doing well without reading others' styles. There are other sources of creativity than books, but even then, I like everything of mine to be as unique as possible. So, I won't look for other creators for inspiration. That aside, I don't want authors' proses, specifically, to influence mine over time.



How can you even tell what what constitutes doing well when you're not reading? You're basing all of this off what you think without looking at what's out there. The whole thing is that reading also keeps you from rehasing the same ideas in the same exact ways that others have. 

And it's highly unlikely your style is unique enough to warrant protecting or that your style is going to sell books. Story and characters sell books. 



Tyrael said:


> I don't get style protectionism - influence from other writers is inevitable, so I'm constantly striving to make sure it's as diverse and interesting styles as I can. At the end of the day, it's going to uniquely yours anyway, so why worry about things like that?



Basically this...



Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> You're deluded if you think your art or writing exists in a vacuum.



...and this.


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## Risyth (Jan 29, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> How can you even tell what what constitutes doing well when you're not reading? You're basing all of this off what you think without looking at what's out there. The whole thing is that reading also keeps you from rehasing the same ideas in the same exact ways that others have.
> 
> And it's highly unlikely your style is unique enough to warrant protecting or that your style is going to sell books. Story and characters sell books.
> 
> ...



Good for you guys. You all agree.

For one, you're arrogantly judging my prose, saying it's likely not "unique enough" when you've never seen it, yet you're also trying to get me to read others? I find that ironic. Let me just tell you that, even if my story is utter crap (which it isn't), the prose it contains is unique. If that means nothing to you, how about knowing that it can't fit on conventional book pages because of how "unique" my entire formatting style is.

Secondly, you think I've never read in my life? Considering the manner in which you've judged me, I'd assume so. When you're in college as a language major, you don't really have a choice. So you should stop right there.

Unlike you, however, I happen to think not every author has the same style at the start. I also think that a style from one can influence another, and I'm not the only person here who doesn't want this to happen. Your two supporters are nowhere near enough to make me change my view: because I'm the one who determines my prose. 

Proses and ideas aren't the same concepts. Styles = proses, not ideas. I could care less about the tropes or scenes an author has invented, used, or abused. 

Story and characters? That has absolutely nothing to do with anything we've been talking about this entire time. Plus it's an unproven opinion, which means I just don't care.

I don't care about selling, either. A lot of stuff "sells" because they follow the same old styles of other successful authors. I'm more concerned about writing well for writing well's sake; if you don't agree with that, there's no point in replying.




Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> You're deluded if you think your art or writing exists in a vacuum.



Missed the point. You're deluded if you think my style can be influenced by another's prose that I do not see.



Tyrael said:


> I don't get style protectionism - influence from other writers is inevitable, so I'm constantly striving to make sure it's as diverse and interesting styles as I can. At the end of the day, it's going to uniquely yours anyway, so why worry about things like that?



That's why I try to clear out what I've seen. I analyzed the hell out of 300-500+ page books, C&P for example, but while I may remember the plot, settings, characters, and such, I've mostly forgotten the author's styles. Usually I don't like their styles, anyway. Almost never, in fact. I can forget it all, but why go through that trouble when I don't have to? Writing comes as common sense to me; sometimes as a puzzle...but neither takes reading someone else's work to negotiate.

If you have a little of someone's prose in your prose, your prose is no longer unique.


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## crazymtf (Jan 29, 2014)

What's with all the fighting? We should be sharing our stories and talking about how to improve and help each other. Not get into huge arguments. Sillyness!


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## Tyrael (Jan 29, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> What's with all the fighting? We should be sharing our stories and talking about how to improve and help each other. Not get into huge arguments. Sillyness!



How dare you!

I challenge you to duel good sir. 





Risyth said:


> If you have a little of someone's prose in your prose, your prose is no longer unique.



I couldn't disagree more.

Do you mind posting a section of your prose however? I am curious to see it.

Edit - just read the rest of your post.



Risyth said:


> Good for you guys. You all agree.
> 
> Your two supporters are nowhere near enough to make me change my view



Seriously?

I'm no one's "supporter". If you want to be taken seriously, being condescending and defensive is a terrible way of doing so.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 29, 2014)

For anyone who is interested in keeping track of their word track in a spreadsheet for a whole year there's this:


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## Risyth (Jan 29, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> How dare you!
> 
> I challenge you to duel good sir.
> 
> ...



I...um...I wasn't trying to be condescending there. It just so happened that I saw and replied to him first and he'd quoted you with supporting points for his argument. That word's not offensive; you're trying to make it so. You all agreed, so you all supported each other. 

Still, the thought of being taken seriously doesn't matter to me 
when all did was tell one person my own preference, then get criticized by three people for it. Don't forget that you just admitted to skimming through my post with some retort already prepared before you even read the entire thing.


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## Malicious Friday (Jan 29, 2014)

Lol, I'll never get this editing done. I'm so fucking lazy


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## Lord Yu (Jan 30, 2014)

Whenever I bother myself to look over my work and at least skim it. I edit furiously.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 30, 2014)

Do you guys know of any good examples of some well written over the top fantasy fight scenes?


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## kazuri (Jan 30, 2014)

Why so hung up over prose? His lectures cover WAY more than that, from character building, world building, all the way to networking at conventions, etc etc. Yea I believe 1 or 2 lectures are on prose, but there are about 50 other that aren't..


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## Tyrael (Jan 30, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Do you guys know of any good examples of some well written over the top fantasy fight scenes?



It's not OTT or fantasy, but Dan Abnett's Embedded is a fantastic example of how to make really cinematic action work in novel form. It's a military sci-fi, so possibly not that helpful, but the first thing that comes to mind when talking about writing action.


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## Risyth (Jan 30, 2014)

kazuri said:


> Why so hung up over prose? His lectures cover WAY more than that, from character building, world building, all the way to networking at conventions, etc etc. Yea I believe 1 or 2 lectures are on prose, but there are about 50 other that aren't..



Everything else I get.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 30, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Everything else I get.



And this is exactly why I think you don't get it. Because if you got it you'd know that you couldn't possibly know everything. Even the pros realize this.


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## Buskuv (Jan 30, 2014)

Bluntly, you'd have to be incredibly naive or narcissistic to believe there is nothing or little left for you to learn, except for prose.    Exactly no one who is earnestly and actively involved in his or her craft peaks in their late teens because there's 'simply nothing left for me to learn.'

An acquaintance and good friend from work writes more engagingly, vividly and eloquently than every other single person I know (including every person on this website, even though ilu all) and the vast majority of published author's I've ever read, and he's not only fully aware he has a long, long list of things to learn, he has told me there will never be a time he will ever be satisfied with what he knows concerning his own writing. 

It's just how it is, dawg.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 30, 2014)

Those are raw facts of life dawg.

In other news, I'm starting to feel like my main character has too many abilities, but when I look at the other characters involved in my story especially the higher tiered ones, hes only a mid-tier at best. How do you guys handle things like this in your writing?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 30, 2014)

One of my characters is an immortal shapeshifter that can punch mountains away with ease. In my current story he's sealed away but in the previous one he was one of the protagonists. It's a delicate juggle. In my other story he couldn't solve really any of his problems with brute force. It really all depends on what type of story you throw them in. In my case it was a kind of twisted coming of age story.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 30, 2014)

Well applying it all storywise I can handle, its just the variety of abilities. I wonder if it might all be too much for my reader to keep up with. He aint no Ichigo


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## Risyth (Jan 30, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Those are raw facts of life dawg.





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> And this is exactly why I think you don't get it. Because if you got it you'd know that you couldn't possibly know everything. Even the pros realize this.





Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> Bluntly, you'd have to be incredibly naive or narcissistic to believe there is nothing or little left for you to learn, except for prose.    Exactly no one who is earnestly and actively involved in his or her craft peaks in their late teens because there's 'simply nothing left for me to learn.'
> 
> An acquaintance and good friend from work writes more engagingly, vividly and eloquently than every other single person I know (including every person on this website, even though ilu all) and the vast majority of published author's I've ever read, and he's not only fully aware he has a long, long list of things to learn, he has told me there will never be a time he will ever be satisfied with what he knows concerning his own writing.
> 
> It's just how it is, dawg.



What you guys have just implied is that the many things I haven't and can still learn, this _"wisdom,"_ is found in that one guy's videos, and that I simply have to hear and then study his take on those subjects to have an understanding of everything there is for me to work on.

That's not true at all. Any objective author will learn as they write, and then know by experience when and  how to improve their writings. At the very least, I don't have to watch his particular videos to improve more. I said I know about everything he discusses because I do. It's not an impossible feat.



And I never said anything about learning prose.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 30, 2014)

Just let it go bruh


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 30, 2014)

Risyth said:


> What you guys have just implied is that the many things I haven't and can still learn, this _"wisdom,"_ is found in that one guy's videos, and that I simply have to hear and then study his take on those subjects to have an understanding of everything there is for me to work on.
> 
> That's not true at all. Any objective author will learn as they write, and then know by experience when and  how to improve their writings. At the very least, I don't have to watch his particular videos to improve more. I said I know about everything he discusses because I do. It's not an impossible feat.
> .



That's like saying that any child left in the wild with no one to converse with will learn language. We know that's completely wrong.


----------



## Risyth (Jan 30, 2014)

If I could. Probably too late now that I've posted.

edit: see



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That's like saying that any child left in the wild with no one to converse with will learn language. We know that's completely wrong.



Why do you assuming that reading those books _you_ like, not even the college ones, is the only possible method for one to better their writing skills? You're coming at this with a personal perspective, which is going to be useless in my case. Constantly writing by itself is enough to improve one's writing. The many other sources of experience are too numerous for me to bother listing at this hour, but basically anytime someone with better prose than you writes and you read it, that's experience, there.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 31, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Those are raw facts of life dawg.
> 
> In other news, I'm starting to feel like my main character has too many abilities, but when I look at the other characters involved in my story especially the higher tiered ones, hes only a mid-tier at best. How do you guys handle things like this in your writing?



I try to avoid all of the tier stuff and I don't really throw too many powers into any one character. The enemies are infinitely more dangerous than most of the cast. But you probably should define your powers before starting and work from a base set and just have them use them in smart ways. The idea that they're constantly learning techniques seems too much like anime stuff and also poses the threat of making powers seem kind of silly. The best magic systems I've ever seen to me are the ones are the ones that are simple seeming but build a lot on top of the established system (see Mistborn). 



Risyth said:


> If I could. Probably too late now that I've posted.
> 
> edit: see
> 
> ...


This isn't a personal experience thing. This is pretty much what anyone worth a shit says.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jan 31, 2014)

So far I've covered a few of the Abilities Systems that will be present throughout my story in my thread. So I know which ones my main character will have. Since my story has the double narrative of the past and present we'll see my main character already start off with most of his overall moveset in the present, and learn how he developed them and thus get more in depth on how they work in the past narrative.

Then once the past narrative is completed and I move on with phase 2 I'll finish off what I have planned for his completed abilities.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 31, 2014)

So I was playing the Kingdoms of Amalur and I was thinking what can make an incredibly derivative story good. Kingdoms of Amalur is not good plotwise. It's characters are flat as paper, the plot is dull, etc. But its lore is extensive.  It was created by RA Salvatore.  That's irrelevant.


Anyway, Lorecrafting is useless if you can't connect it to the audience. KoA feels like a Fantasy theme park. It doesn't feel like anything but a video game for a second, I can't believe any of these people are real or that their struggles mean anything. It's clear a lot of work was put into crafting this world but not a lot of talent.


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## ~Avant~ (Jan 31, 2014)

Hmm I see what youre saying. At the end of it all, its the characters that make the story truly worth exploring.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 31, 2014)

My point is in worldbuilding you can't let your lore become too detached from the audience. It needs to feel at least a little bit true.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 2, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> In other news, I'm starting to feel like my main character has too many abilities, but when I look at the other characters involved in my story especially the higher tiered ones, hes only a mid-tier at best. How do you guys handle things like this in your writing?



For me, unless they're gods, I usually give the character one power and one only because I feel if a characters has more than one ability in my books, they're automatically overpowered--And my characters are already overpowered as fuck. The only exceptions are the Pieces. They have their Piece's main ability along with telepathy and a medium fast regeneration. 

I don't necessarily have a tier list of what goes above what, I find most powers equal unless a character has more experience. (I think I worded that wrong...)



Lord Yu said:


> Anyway, Lorecrafting is useless if you can't connect it to the audience. KoA feels like a Fantasy theme park. It doesn't feel like anything but a video game for a second, I can't believe any of these people are real or that their struggles mean anything. It's clear a lot of work was put into crafting this world but not a lot of talent.



Can you explain to me what Lovecrafting is?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 2, 2014)

I'm an old OBD regular so tier lists, stats, and calcs come second nature to me now.

Yu said Lorecrafting not Lovecrafting lol


----------



## Krory (Feb 2, 2014)

Lovecrafting sounds a lot more fun yet redundant.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 2, 2014)

Somehow I thought he said Lovecraftian.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 2, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I'm an old OBD regular so tier lists, stats, and calcs come second nature to me now.
> 
> Yu said Lorecrafting not Lovecrafting lol



Oh... Well what's _lorecrafting_ then? 



krory said:


> Lovecrafting sounds a lot more fun yet redundant.



It does, doesn't it


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 2, 2014)

Lorecrafting is basically the myths and history in your story, and it can also double as a sorta guide to your fictional world


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 2, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Lorecrafting is basically the myths and history in your story, and it can also double as a sorta guide to your fictional world



This is where my story being set in the real world, more or less, comes in handy.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 2, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Lorecrafting is basically the myths and history in your story, and it can also double as a sorta guide to your fictional world



Alright, thanks :33


It seems the sequel to _The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World_ is going to be shorter than the prequel...  I want to make it longer but that's not going to happen... I predict at least 20-25 chapters at most.


----------



## Cjones (Feb 2, 2014)

I typically have difficultly with Lorecrafting at times, so when I come up with events that have shaped the world to make it what it is I try and have a character mention it at different intervals. 

Like a war that happened some 50+ years ago.

But then I feel if I do to much; I'll end up forgetting everything or it becomes redundant.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 2, 2014)

I do my best lorecrafting in the moment. Which can screw me sometimes.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 4, 2014)

I hit that spot where my ass-pulling the plot isn't cutting it and I have to sit down and see what I can come up with for the characters to progress to next. I also need to think of an angle for Lucifer because as it stands he seems like too nice of a guy and I need him to be at least Draco in Leather Pants level dickish. 

Tweaking characters is hard for me.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 4, 2014)

See those are things I like to avoid, its why I have an almost OCD like impulse to completely hammer out my plot before getting to the first page of my story


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 4, 2014)

I had to completely change a character in terms of looks and how he reacts to people. Writing him as emotionless was hard...


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 4, 2014)

Sociopathic or properly emotionless?


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 4, 2014)

Properly emotionless, or rather, that's what I was trying to do. I just made him apathetic now.


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 4, 2014)

What'd you figure was the need to change his appearance based on that? To make him look less or more detached?


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 4, 2014)

I changed his appearance at the end of the rough draft writing. I changed it because wearing 18th century suits casually in 1999-2000 is weird and seemed out of place in fight scenes.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

The best reason not to do that is it doesn't make sense. One of the big things some people in here seem to really need to do is let go of anime and learn that novels, writing, prose...whatever you want to call it--it's different. 

The same things that work in comics, movies, television, music and etc won't work here because we're talking about a medium that doesn't have the ability to make sounds (most of the time) or show you pictures for you to get the point of things. If a character's wearing a cool outfit in a show it will instill a feeling in a person, though that feeling will vary depending upon their experiences. If you're describing an outfit and how cool it is, it's not going to be the same kind of thing and really it might just come off as dead page space. 

We kind of have to treat writing like what it is, we have something that those other mediums don't have. We have the reader's imagination, we don't have budgets and we don't have to have the ability to draw or play music to convey a point. Use the strengths. Leave things like tier lists out, because the second that we drag that into things we're thinking with the wrong medium's mentality.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 5, 2014)

I design outfits in my mind and write about them because it helps me create a more uniform aesthetic. What a character wears can tell you a lot about a character. For example,  There is an organization in my story where everyone has the tendency to where either all red or or all white outfits. Also one character is a fashion designer so describing what she wears is pretty much a given.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I design outfits in my mind and write about them because it helps me create a more uniform aesthetic. What a character wears can tell you a lot about a character. For example,  There is an organization in my story where everyone has the tendency to where either all red or or all white outfits. Also one character is a fashion designer so describing what she wears is pretty much a given.



I have a character with a strong sense of fashion and though I never say it she notices clothing and things about people's clothing more than the other character. The thing is that most of the character's clothes are period appropriate. Even Lucifer and the other demons and cultists. And nothing is strange like them wearing extra belts or long coats for no reason. This really doesn't apply as hard in a world where it's not like ours, but even then there should be some sense to why someone wears something.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 5, 2014)

*Sons of Gaea Agents "Uniforms"______*
The cadets in my book all wear white shirts and black sweatpants while in training.

When they're not doing a mission, they usually wear whatever they want as long as they're not flamboyant or flashy to make them stand out. They go like that on patrol.

When they'r going on missions, there are two kinds of clothing they wear: For light missions like escorts, they wear flak jackets, loose fitting pants, and combat boots; for heavy missions like an infiltration, they wear mesh armor over interior iron padded flak jackets (dark green or black), loose pants that have steel padding on the outside. 
________________________________

Bringing in another subject, in my books that contain magic, I have a rule that water dilutes the energy used to create magical spells--think of milk and water or something. 

Steel and iron is like lead to radiation for magic because I have this thing that before science, we all believed in magic and when science was really revolutionized, the practices of alchemy and magic gradually became look down upon or something like that.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 5, 2014)

@CBTK: I don't see what tier lists have to do with anything else you're talking about


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 5, 2014)

Tier lists are why I had myself banned from the OBD.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 5, 2014)

Guys because tier lists just don't work when you're trying to rank thousands of characters from hundreds of different serie


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> @CBTK: I don't see what tier lists have to do with anything else you're talking about



A tier list defines what a character is capable of without creativity or letting them think their way out of the situation. Your character will usually be out gunned in some way and making a tier list proves what? You can't be having that many fights in a story, because even books with a lot of fights don't have that many fights.

The tier list mentality is kind of one where you expect there to be a lot of fights and to have some unnecessary fights. If you run a story long to just fluff it up with fights it will show and it will hurt the narrative, so there's really no point in making the tier list anyway. 

Basically, they're part of a mentality that has nothing to do with novels and writing of any kind.


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Bringing in another subject, in my books that contain magic, I have a rule that water dilutes the energy used to create magical spells--think of milk and water or something.
> 
> Steel and iron is like lead to radiation for magic because I have this thing that before science, we all believed in magic and when science was really revolutionized, the practices of alchemy and magic gradually became look down upon or something like that.



This is pretty cool thinking - creating a relationship between magic and things in the real world often helps to make it become more tangible. It's why I keep coming back to the magic system in The Last Airbender really.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> This is pretty cool thinking - creating a relationship between magic and things in the real world often helps to make it become more tangible. It's why I keep coming back to the magic system in The Last Airbender really.



The magic system in Mistborn gives me the hugest hardon. Like, I can't leave the house for hours now.


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2014)

Dat Sanderson.

Pity I'm not really fond of basically all other aspects of his writing.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Dat Sanderson.
> 
> Pity I'm not really fond of basically all other aspects of his writing.



Yeah, Sanderson is sort of a letdown.


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2014)

Well Mistborn was at least, which is a crying shame since the magic system was so goddamn amazing.

Still holding out for that TV series they promised us. Also an American adaptation of Monster.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

My mission is to write an ax fight into something now. It might even be the current project.


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## ~Avant~ (Feb 5, 2014)

But that is precisey why I use tier lists.  First as way to keep track of which characters are generally ore powerful than the others so that when someone who is weaker is confronted with a more powerful opponent they will have to think their way out as opposed to just relying on brute force.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> But that is precisey why I use tier lists.  First as way to keep track of which characters are generally ore powerful than the others so that when someone who is weaker is confronted with a more powerful opponent they will have to think their way out as opposed to just relying on brute force.



But unless the characters know who is more powerful you're going to have to write them figuring one another out anyway before one of them can choose whether or not to run. This assumes that they don't have some kind of power to read power or something like that. 

I'm kind of guilty of having a way for them to tell when someone's powerful. Like, if an Angel is displaying six wings pretty much anyone needs to run. Because that Angel has access to most of the power Heaven has to offer and they will remake reality to blip you out of existence. 

Though, I might need to change this so that it is more realistic and toned down some. Even then, there's very few of those Angels. 

Thing is you probably shouldn't need the lists. 


On another subject, Tyrael says he sees my writing talent showing in my character's very vulgar, strange thoughts. 


> Eric?s in high top converse that look like they don?t know the meaning of the word dirt, a brand new button-up shirt that still has those from-the-store-folds, and a pair of corduroy pants. Corduroy pants are a dead giveaway that a guy isn?t expecting sex, at least not the fun kind. Cum doesn?t clean out of corduroy.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 5, 2014)

Well yeah that's pretty obvious. The first fight in my story takes place between my protagonist and my deutragonist. Where in my deutragonist shows up overly confident without any real idea of just how powerful the protagonist is and once they tables turn he's forced to use his powers in a more creative way setting traps to just end the fight in a draw


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2014)

So is your novel based around fantastical anime-style battles?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 5, 2014)

Not based around them no. But when they do occur one could say theyd feel echoes of animestyle fighting


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2014)

Ah cool, that's kinda what tier lists suggest to me.

I'm sure you've given a synopsis earlier on in the thread, but what sorta story you writing? Having a hard time figuring it out.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 5, 2014)

At its heart its really about a man seeking redemption and trying to regain his honor. Themes that are prevalent throught the story, are how our idols and father figures influence who we become and what choices we make, aswell as the disillusion of the pedastal we place them on, even going so far as exploring what happens when we are betrayed in the worst possible way by them.

Futhermore it delves in subjects of love and how far we're willing to go to secure it, protect it, and hurt it. When does loving someone become self destructive? When do you realize its time to let go? etc.

My story weaves these themes into a driving narrative mixed with a truly thoughtout world to avoid any teen drama-esque executions

I could really go on forever.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

I think we should, as a group, crowd write the ultimate terrible paranormal romance novel. I mean, it could be about this girl Gilda Goldberg who is short and shy and goes to a school where the mean girls pick on her and then a new boy moves to town: Martin McCatherty and he's secretly a Leprechaun and she falls in love with him and finds out his secret.

He has to be dark and brooding and he can't be too short, at the shortest like five seven--because girls can't get wet to that shit.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 5, 2014)

Just published a new short story, if any horror fan wants to check it out. 

Have you ever had a terrible day at work? Nothing seems to go right and everybody is out to ruin your entire day? Also, add on the fact that your boss is breathing down your neck to get work done. You ever get the urge to maybe want to...kill someone? That's what Ben gets roped into as his best friend, Ron, forces him to join him on a nightly adventure to kill their boss. What seems like a joke at first quickly escalates and things aren't what they seem. The workers want a little revenge but what if the boss has plans of his own?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

Is their boss a leperchaun that they hate-fuck (Hate fucking isn't rape, don't mix the two up)?


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 5, 2014)

No...maybe...spoilers...
*Spoiler*: __ 



No


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

I have purchased your book sir, when I finish my reading about sexy teenage Angels I will read some of these.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 5, 2014)

Really? Wow, thank you  

P.S. - Where can I read these sexy angels?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Really? Wow, thank you
> 
> P.S. - Where can I read these sexy angels?



They're not really that sexy. Basically since I have a lot of stuff about Angels in my book I was checking out the book "Unearthly" because it has similar subject matter. Though I don't focus on romance I wanted to see what the author did with the lore because she drew from the Book of Enoch and so did I. Luckily I haven't done too much like her, but I do like her first book. The second one is a little rocky.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 6, 2014)

Ah, that's actually smart. Since if you do become famous you don't have to deal with the backlash of "This is like this and that" bullshit.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 6, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Ah, that's actually smart. Since if you do become famous you don't have to deal with the backlash of "This is like this and that" bullshit.



I pretty much change anything that looks too much like anything she did in her book, so far that's been one thing. She had a lot of interesting ideas I never would have thought of. I guess her writing romance is kind of what brought that out in some ways.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 6, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think we should, as a group, *crowd write the ultimate terrible paranormal romance novel.* I mean, it could be about this girl Gilda Goldberg who is short and shy and goes to a school where the mean girls pick on her and then a new boy moves to town: Martin McCatherty and he's secretly a Leprechaun and she falls in love with him and finds out his secret.
> 
> He has to be dark and brooding and he can't be too short, at the shortest like five seven--because girls can't get wet to that shit.



Nostalgia Chick did it with Cthulu. I don't think anyone can top that.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 6, 2014)

I think this might confuse the readers:

My protagonist, Melissa, is mentally and emotionally unstable. She's not insane though. She cries from just about everything that happens to her. In chapter 1, she is being chased down by a flock of demonic birds. One of them possesses her friend Devin and uses him to attack her. She's save by a man name Redu?le (Ray-dw?-ley) and she falls unconscious after use her Piece's power.

Now here's the part I think the readers may find confusing. Until chapter 11, I have Melissa think she's in a dream as stated in chapter 2 and until chapter 11, I have Melissa say that when she wakes up, she'll be back home, with a hangover, with Devin and live happily ever after. She doesn't believe she's a Piece to the Crown nor does she believe any of what Redu?le says is true. 

In chapter 11, it's revealed that Melissa is mentally and emotionally unstable and she's been pushing back and changing her memories so she won't have to remember them.

So my question is: Will Melissa thinking that everything is a dream until chapter 11 be confusing to the readers? I wanted to do something somewhat psychologically complex to Melissa and this is what I came up with.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2014)

Congrats on writing a book.



> That's what Ben gets roped into as his best friend, Ron, forces him to join him on a nightly adventure to kill their boss. What seems like a joke at first quickly escalates and things aren't what they seem.



"...and things aren't what they seem," is probably one of the most used phrases in a summary though.  Nothing wrong with having it though.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Congrats on writing a book.
> 
> 
> 
> "...and things aren't what they seem," is probably one of the most used phrases in a summary though.  Nothing wrong with having it though.


 I want to include the phrase "and things are exactly what they seem"


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I want to include the phrase "and things are exactly what they seem"



Everyone should be obligated to buy a book that included that phrase in their summary.

"But (protagonist) is in for precisely what they bargained for, and things are always exactly what they seem."



Malicious Friday said:


> I think this might confuse the readers:
> 
> My protagonist, Melissa, is mentally and emotionally unstable. She's not insane though. She cries from just about everything that happens to her. In chapter 1, she is being chased down by a flock of demonic birds. One of them possesses her friend Devin and uses him to attack her. She's save by a man name Redu?le (Ray-dw?-ley) and she falls unconscious after use her Piece's power.
> 
> ...



It depends on how many clues you give and how complete you make it, I think.

A psychological trick, or an unreliable narrator, I think, is like seeing a magic show, and then seeing it again when he trick is revealed.  The world has to look right from the first perspective, from Mellisa's perspective, and you have to buy into it.  But it has to look more right from the new perspective, where you can really see what happened.  If you can read through the first 11 chapters never knowing that her memories were changed, good.  If after you know, you can re-read the first 11 chapters and reinterpret all the data under your new lens, and says, "It all makes sense," then I think you've done it right, and your readers should be able to follow you.  

Does that make sense, is that kind of what you're going for, or did I misunderstand?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2014)

Well there are the kind of books where the reader is expected to realize that the narrator is unreliable. I can't think of an example of one.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 7, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Everyone should be obligated to buy a book that included that phrase in their summary.
> 
> "But (protagonist) is in for precisely what they bargained for, and things are always exactly what they seem."
> 
> ...



Actually, it does make sense. It's exactly what I'm going for.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Everyone should be obligated to buy a book that included that phrase in their summary.
> 
> "But (protagonist) is in for precisely what they bargained for, and things are always exactly what they seem."



What if you use "Nothing was the same" in part of the tag line. That works, right?


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 7, 2014)

"Two and a half millennia ago, the artifact appeared in a remote corner of space, beside a trillion-year-old dying sun from a different universe. It was a perfect black-body sphere, and it did nothing. Then it disappeared.

Now it is back."

Best blurb ever.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> "Two and a half millennia ago, the artifact appeared in a remote corner of space, beside a trillion-year-old dying sun from a different universe. It was a perfect black-body sphere, and it did nothing. Then it disappeared.
> 
> Now it is back."
> 
> Best blurb ever.



I feel like this is some kind of word problem I'm supposed to solve. 

I'm kind of scared to write my own blurb.


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 7, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I think this might confuse the readers:
> 
> My protagonist, Melissa, is mentally and emotionally unstable. She's not insane though. She cries from just about everything that happens to her. In chapter 1, she is being chased down by a flock of demonic birds. One of them possesses her friend Devin and uses him to attack her. She's save by a man name Redu?le (Ray-dw?-ley) and she falls unconscious after use her Piece's power.
> 
> ...



The Pirate on Wheels pretty much hit the nail on the head - gotta make the twist guessable whilst distracting the audience enough that they won't guess it. Difficult line to walk likes.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I feel like this is some kind of word problem I'm supposed to solve.
> 
> I'm kind of scared to write my own blurb.



"Now it is back" is just such a dramatic line. It always amused me.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What if you use "Nothing was the same" in part of the tag line. That works, right?



Hmm, yeah.  We could try adding Tarael's bit in there.

"Now it is back, and nothing was the same."


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 7, 2014)

"Will be" rather than "was" fits better - it's a promise you're making the audience, rather than a summary of something that has already happened.

"Now it is back, and nothing will be the same."


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 7, 2014)

Every time I here nothing was the same, I think Drake and giggle.


----------



## Krory (Feb 7, 2014)

Nothing's been the same...

Not since the accident.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 7, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Congrats on writing a book.
> 
> 
> 
> "...and things aren't what they seem," is probably one of the most used phrases in a summary though.  Nothing wrong with having it though.



Haha yeah, I was trying to think of something else but it really sums up what happens. What happens is pretty much insane amount of crazy fucking shit


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2014)

There's your blurb right there. An insane amount of crazy shit happens.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 7, 2014)

Also, I'm going to be in the UK Magazine SCREAM In April for my short story "Killing Your Boss". Very excited!


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 7, 2014)

But that's really awesome dude, did you already have a relationship with the magazine or was it kinda out of the blue? That sorta exposure is always cool though.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Also, I'm going to be in the UK Magazine SCREAM In April for my short story "Killing Your Boss". Very excited!



Awesome, that's a good way to break into the market and get attention is to get into magazines and have something to go to the publishers with when the ask what you've done. Wait, are from the UK?


----------



## Demetrius (Feb 7, 2014)

tbh i'm glad rysith recognized the methods are atleast _flawed_, but i'm not quite sure how you can lessen the exposure to any type of prose - reading things is exactly how you_ build_ - it's how you fucking_ learn_, christ, i mean, what?

there's absolutely no stunningly unique about 'ceasing' the vulnerability in order to access some form of what, superb writing style - since there isn't anything unique about being stylistic in the long run of things, really - because it isn't the style itself, but it's the way one articulates things and plays with the language effectively? baffled

what bloody difference does this make

apologies  but i was figuratively dying  to add these two cents in 'cos i'm quite genuinely nosy, of course


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2014)

Trinity said:


> tbh i'm glad rysith recognized the methods are atleast _flawed_, but i'm not quite sure how you can lessen the exposure to any type of prose - reading things is exactly how you_ build_ - it's how you fucking_ learn_, christ, i mean, what?
> 
> there's absolutely no stunningly unique about 'ceasing' the vulnerability in order to access some form of what, superb writing style - since there isn't anything unique about being stylistic in the long run of things, really - because it isn't the style itself, but it's the way one articulates things and plays with the language effectively? baffled
> 
> ...



The row he caused in here before was basically everyone telling him that reading is necessary for writing and him saying it would ruin his unique prose. I didn't really care if I looked slightly rude, I act rude in the open forum pretty often (usually for my own amusement). This isn't anything new. 

What were you going to ask a question about?


----------



## Demetrius (Feb 7, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The row he caused in here before was basically everyone telling him that reading is necessary for writing and him saying it would ruin his unique prose. I didn't really care if I looked slightly rude, I act rude in the open forum pretty often (usually for my own amusement). This isn't anything new.
> 
> What were you going to ask a question about?


i never said you were rude--but alas



> reading is necessary for writing


pretty much where my argument lies and what i was perplexed by

the hissy-fit just makes it a laughable matter, now



> and him saying it would ruin his unique prose


still don't get this

you are among the human language, you've taken english courses most likely that _do_ influence your writing subconsciously, even conversing day to day is and observing articles on line, could in fact,_ influence one's writing _
the fact that english has evolved and various aspects of it has been ingrained, has proved to be effective in_ influencing one's writing _
literally, this does not stop at just reading a couple of brilliant authors and prose, fucking _something_ is going to_ influence one's writing _
someone's gonna have to try a lot harder than steering away from books and so on for the perfect unique prose 
ugh 
barf

i don't fucking get it

i literally want this guy to come in here and explain the logistics about this 


> What were you going to ask a question about?


about plots, mainly making them steady

i have tendency to not become off-topic - but rather bored with it all after five chapters or so, and typically, my ideas scatter around and i go on to the next thing

so my constant boredom and irritation also adds on to the fact my plots are always so skewed and not even a plot, i'm afraid

how do i fix this


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2014)

Trinity said:


> i never said you were rude--but alas
> 
> pretty much where my argument lies and what i was perplexed by
> 
> ...



That's a really interesting and unique question. I mean, it seems a little silly for me to just say "write short stories". This could be a case of something that I heard about on a podcast where they were saying that some people crave the fun of the planning stages and when they get into the meat of the writing they try to escape by going on to plan the next thing instead of finishing the last project that they were working on. 

Learning to focus is kind of a big deal, but I'm not sure what advice I could give to make that easier.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 7, 2014)

I'm on my current project because I ran away from my main project.  So far it seems like a good idea because I'm actually on track to spin a book out of this one. Unfortunately, this project is technically the end of the series. But hey anachronic order isn't so bad when you have a series as anarchic as mine.


----------



## Demetrius (Feb 8, 2014)

the question here is why be intimidated by your influences, risyth 




> some people crave the fun of the planning stages and when they get into  the meat of the writing they try to escape by going on to plan the next  thing instead of finishing the last project that they were working on.


i think this describes my current frustration quite well

i suppose the trick is to deceive my always wanting to keep the idea fresh and new  and actually make a full-blown novel, with a coherent plot 

perhaps  i should just study plots or something, might do me well


----------



## Risyth (Feb 8, 2014)

Who said anything about being intimidated? 

I want my prose to remain a certain way. Partly because I'm too late in my story to change it, and partly because I like my style the way it is now. There's no aspect of intimidation about it.


----------



## Demetrius (Feb 8, 2014)

alright, let me reword this: why apparently  refuse your influences, or atleast, try to

kind of curious in your approach 

namely, the characteristics and how this provides your prose with something far from banality


----------



## Risyth (Feb 8, 2014)

Trinity said:


> alright, let me reword this: why apparently  refuse your influences, or atleast, try to
> 
> kind of curious in your approach
> 
> namely, the characteristics and how this provides your prose with something far from banality



I've done it before; that's how I know I don't like the feeling. It doesn't feel like me; it feels like someone else is writing for me. That's just how I feel here, though I'm far from the only person to feel this way outside of here. Simply put, I want to be original, or as original as possible. I do feel like my prose is becoming more banal, but that may just be where I'm at in my story. Or maybe it's because I had to read boring classics at the same time, last year.

I'd make some lame comparison to one's prose being like one's fingerprint, but eh....


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 8, 2014)

Why don't you two just ignore each other until you cool off? It's obvious this isn't going to be settled. 

We're all writers here, all buddies. :33

Oh and guys, go here if you want to read the first 4 chapters of my book: Sealed Stories.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 8, 2014)

Anyone know any good books with Satan in them?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 8, 2014)

Stephen King's son, Joe Hill wrote a book called "Horns" apparently. Going to read that shit.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 8, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Why don't you two just ignore each other until you cool off? It's obvious this isn't going to be settled.
> 
> We're all writers here, all buddies. :33
> 
> Oh and guys, go here if you want to read the first 4 chapters of my book: Sealed Stories.



Sweet.  Free teasers.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 8, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> He repped me over the post between me and you where we talked about my Angels not being like the others in the other book.
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome, that's a good way to break into the market and get attention is to get into magazines and have something to go to the publishers with when the ask what you've done. Wait, are from the UK?



I'm not from the UK, but since UK people like to read more this is a good thing I think 



Tyrael said:


> Risyth came back in thread and negged CTK in a rep really, thus restarting the argument.
> 
> But that's really awesome dude, did you already have a relationship with the magazine or was it kinda out of the blue? That sorta exposure is always cool though.



I did not. I emailed 20-30 companies asking for a review/podcast/advert and this was the only one to get back to me. I'm excited, though. This could be what I need to jump start my story.


----------



## Krory (Feb 8, 2014)

Moving on from everyone wanting to pick fights with each other...


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 8, 2014)

So I do part time magazines and books for stores and I was putting away books today and it just drives me crazy which ones are top sellers or popular. First off, it's annoying to see the same fucking people over and over again on top sellers when they re-write mostly the same shit. If I see James Paterson on one more goddamn book...and that Nora Robert or whatever the fuck. It drives me crazy. 

However, this is the big one that digs into my very soul. The upcoming ones or hot sellers. I look on the back and they all read the same. "Vampire finds true love" or "Hunters searching for a demon" or "She left him with nothing. Now he must find new love." OR "Detective Blah Blah is chasing Hannibal Lector copy 200" I mean fuck...I feel like "Same old same old" works better than something brand new.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 8, 2014)

I've read James Patterson before. I enjoyed his Maximum Ride series but then it just got boring. "They have to stay a secret from a world while an evil corporation chases after him", which was good, but then I stopped after they became famous. Reminds me of Ben 10 almost. DOn't ask me why.

I'm really hating on the cruddy jokes he puts in his books. They're not even funny. The only reason I'm sticking with him is because Daniel X isn't finished.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 8, 2014)

There is literally no point in getting angry over people liking what they like. It just leads to pointless bitterness.  Like what you like, write what you like, and love your world. I've been that way about Final Fantasy 13.  I'm over it now.


----------



## Risyth (Feb 8, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> There is literally no point in getting angry over people liking what they like. It just leads to pointless bitterness.  Like what you like, write what you like, and love your world. I've been that way about *Final Fantasy 13*.  I'm over it now.



Lol.


----------



## Krory (Feb 8, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> There is literally no point in getting angry over people liking what they like. It just leads to pointless bitterness.  Like what you like, write what you like, and love your world. I've been that way about* Final Fantasy 13*.  I'm over it now.



I'll be over it when they stop making sequels to it.


----------



## Tragic (Feb 8, 2014)

I tried my hardest to like James Patterson books but Daniel X just doesn't do anything for me, Witch and Wizard doesn't feel like a book about Witches and Wizard plus the alternating main characters are hard to tell apart. Also, his Maximum Ride series, imo, just didn't go anywhere and was too long. Actually, all of his books felt like the story wasn't going anywhere.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 8, 2014)

I really don't find James Patterson that good a writer anymore, but I think he target more younger audiences.


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 8, 2014)

Patterson uses his name like a brand and tends to get other writers to ghost write his stuff these days. It's how he's able to squeeze out so many novels so quickly.



crazymtf said:


> I did not. I emailed 20-30 companies asking for a review/podcast/advert and this was the only one to get back to me. I'm excited, though. This could be what I need to jump start my story.



Ah excellent, it's good to know the whole "just sell the shit out of your stuff" approach still holds some grounds. I'm kinda worried that the fact that internet has made it much easier to get in contact with people has watered it down a bit.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 8, 2014)

Hardest thing in my opinion is to get reviews on your stuff. It's not as easy as it looks. Nobody wants to review stuff anymore


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 9, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Patterson uses his name like a brand and tends to get other writers to ghost write his stuff these days. It's how he's able to squeeze out so many novels so quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah excellent, it's good to know the whole "just sell the shit out of your stuff" approach still holds some grounds. I'm kinda worried that the fact that internet has made it much easier to get in contact with people has watered it down a bit.



Yeah Patterson basically lets no one know how much he contributes to these "partnerships" with budding writers. And witch and wizard made a big splash back when I had XM radio and listened to book radio. They were reading chapters from it all of the time and it seemed kind of boring and typical and the characters were pretty one dimensional. Also a few of the chapters seemed to be a sentence. 

But the production values for the audio book were high. There were sound effects and voice actors. Elijah Wood read the boy's chapters and I don't remember who read the girl's. 



crazymtf said:


> Hardest thing in my opinion is to get reviews on your stuff. It's not as easy as it looks. Nobody wants to review stuff anymore


A lot of the people on good reads seem to thrive on the attention their reviews get. If you could get some of them on board then it would help the grease the wheels. But yeah, I find that people will only tend to give star ratings and nothing else. I'm guilty of it too for the most part. I think the last time I really sat down and gave a review was after I finished Dan Wells's books.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 9, 2014)

It's a shame. I mean, sometimes I just give a star rating too. I do try to write a review for a book I really do enjoy though. OR a book I really hate.


----------



## Buskuv (Feb 9, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> There is literally no point in getting angry over people liking what they like. It just leads to pointless bitterness.  Like what you like, write what you like, and love your world.* I've been that way about Final Fantasy 13.*  I'm over it now.



This boils my broccoli.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 9, 2014)

I'm on chapter 18 with some 68000 words at a rough guess and I still have no idea where I'll end this volume.

Wait, I think I might.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 10, 2014)

Here's a good question: What do you all feel about love interests? Do you have one, or two, or three, in your stories or are they just faint or nonexistent?

For one thing, imo, they're overdone and overused in almost everything I see and I feel in some stories that it's just not needed. And there's the fact that I hate romance. I try to avoid putting romance in my stories because it's just overdone, and Twilight just ruined it for me, just like it did vampires .


----------



## Demetrius (Feb 10, 2014)

> What do you all feel about love interests? Do you have one, or two, or  three, in your stories or are they just faint or nonexistent?


love interests? no 

a level of attraction because it's natural for a human being to fall for a certain character due to the endorphins spread about in their body,_ if_ it's necessary for the story or character? yes

if that's the genre i want to write? yes

if the love interest expands on the plot or it's just a fun tool to use? perhaps



> I try to avoid putting romance in my stories because it's just overdone,  and Twilight just ruined it for me, just like it did vampires .


i think you mean _horrendous depictions of romance _

bathe yourself in the classics, go far back, go to the 1950s and discovered the unfounded phenomenal etiquette gentlemen had, the not-so-dry depiction of a woman, young and beautiful, falling for a man hopelessly no matter how cheesy it is 


but typically, i hate romance of all kinds - not because of it being overdone, but it simply being portrayed poorly

but romance sells, is the thing, it's there to look pretty and nothing more, it doesn't have to make sense, because everybody wants somebody 

i feel, even if i've not read enough romance novels, i've heard far too many reviews and discussions of the likes to actually take what romance in novels are today, seriously 

i can't even take nicholas sparks seriously 

it's just...the same old thing


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Here's a good question: What do you all feel about love interests? Do you have one, or two, or three, in your stories or are they just faint or nonexistent?



I have two characters who are in a long term relationship and then another one who doesn't believe in relationships and sleeps around. This is just treated as a part of who she is. I don't really want the focus of things to be romance in my story. I allow the characters to care for each other and be there for each other in what seems like a healthy and natural way. 

Love interests not being in a book meant to be as long term as mine is kind of stupid. Most people go through some sort of relationship and it's just a natural part of life. Me ignoring all of that wouldn't really make much sense. 



Malicious Friday said:


> For one thing, imo, they're overdone and overused in almost everything I see and I feel in some stories that it's just not needed. And there's the fact that I hate romance. I try to avoid putting romance in my stories because it's just overdone, and Twilight just ruined it for me, just like it did vampires .



People need to get over their petty feelings about Twilight. It was a mediocre book that made a huge splash and changed some of the market. It's not some great evil sent to destroy things and there's really no reason it should ruin everything about anything for you. Don't like it, just don't read it. 



Trinity said:


> i think you mean _horrendous depictions of romance _
> 
> bathe yourself in the classics, go far back, go to the 1950s and discovered the unfounded phenomenal etiquette gentlemen had, the not-so-dry depiction of a woman, young and beautiful, falling for a man hopelessly no matter how cheesy it is


It kind of takes a very sexist approach to the gender roles and it doesn't really work in today's world. I feel like it's part of the reason why people have unrealistic expectations from the opposite sex. We've spent too much time dwelling on this archaic idea of gender roles and their places in relationship when the rest of the world around all of that is changing.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 10, 2014)

Love and lust, sex and romance have been a major thing in my life. You know what they say,  write what you know.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 10, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> People need to get over their petty feelings about Twilight. It was a mediocre book that made a huge splash and changed some of the market.* It's not some great evil sent to destroy things* and there's really no reason it should ruin everything about anything for you. Don't like it, just don't read it.



Yes it is, you know it is.  Unless the fandom has already brainwashed you!!!


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Yes it is, you know it is.  Unless the fandom has already brainwashed you!!!


I never read Twilight, though I did promise someone I would someday and I plan to do it when I feel like it because of the promise. I feel like I have read worse stories both from what they portray and how they're written. I don't think that Meyers is some great author, but I also am sure that she's not the worst.


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 10, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Here's a good question: What do you all feel about love interests? Do you have one, or two, or three, in your stories or are they just faint or nonexistent?
> 
> For one thing, imo, they're overdone and overused in almost everything I see and I feel in some stories that it's just not needed. And there's the fact that I hate romance. I try to avoid putting romance in my stories because it's just overdone, and Twilight just ruined it for me, just like it did vampires .



The problem is most love interests have no other function in the story save for to be love interests. That's why so often the whole scenario is terrifically dull. Make both characters in the scenario interesting in their own right and it works fine.



Trinity said:


> i can't even take nicholas sparks seriously



What really kills me about Nicholas Sparks is how amazingly pretentious he is. He claims he doesn't write romance - he writes "true dramas". He genuinely has the audacity to claim romance is below him. It's like he's never even read the books he writes.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 10, 2014)

I love writing love/lust/sex things because a lot of times they are a big part of people's lives. Not only that but they also either create a lot of great situations or destroy people's lives. Yes, they can very well help move the plot a long in a lot of amazing ways IMO.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

I guess I agree with what Tyrael said. The characters can't be meant to be interesting simply because they're the ones in love. There has to be other things about them that make them special in some way. Sometimes, when we make a character as a love interest it's easy to fall into the trap of having them be one dimensional because you're shaping them to be a fit for another character. 

The Daunte character I am writing has been the hardest to flesh out because he was conceived as the long term boyfriend for the succubus character and everything else kind of came after that fact. But, he really isn't there that much to begin with so it's hard to mistake all of this as romance driven.


----------



## Krory (Feb 10, 2014)

At least Twilight gave us the hilarity that is .


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 10, 2014)

So then Shirley have hiking it at all? I treat all my characters no matter how minor like main characters. I explore their reasons for. being in the story even if it's not for my readers to know fully,  they'll get a sense of who the character is through my writing them as if they were main characters


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> So then Shirley have hiking it at all? I treat all my characters no matter how minor like main characters. I explore their reasons for. being in the story even if it's not for my readers to know fully,  they'll get a sense of who the character is through my writing them as if they were main characters



See, I kind of have to treat my main character like she's all important and the only thing that really matters because she feels like that about herself.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 10, 2014)

Are you writing it in first person through her eyes?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Are you writing it in first person through her eyes?



Yep, even if I was in third person limited it would have to be that way. She's Lucifer's selfish, prideful, brash teenage daughter. I try my best to convey it when I can. 



> I crawl through the driver?s side door and pull the passenger door closed. How long do I have before Uncle Mike realized that something was wrong and I wasn?t going to be right there?
> 
> I open the glove compartment and pluck out a pocket knife. There?s a pair of ear-bud headphones in the center console. Tim, Karen, their friends?they were only human. The blood of the first Angels runs through my veins and I?ll be Goddamned if I?m going to take this shit from the likes of men.



Not the best example I can think of, but I try to let the reader know all too well that she's not justified in her thought process.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 10, 2014)

She certainly seems like quite an entertaining character lol


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> The problem is most love interests have no other function in the story save for to be love interests. That's why so often the whole scenario is terrifically dull. Make both characters in the scenario interesting in their own right and it works fine.



This, so much.

I hate love interests, because people write them as a love interest.  Not as a person, not as a character, not as someone with a life (outside of the protagonist), with a dream (outside of marrying the protagonist), and their own desires (outside of sleeping with the protagonist), or dislikes (outside of disliking the jealous rotton "other woman", who herself exists only to create a bitter love triangle used for middle-school level drama).



Malicious Friday said:


> Here's a good question: What do you all feel about love interests? Do you have one, or two, or three, in your stories or are they just faint or nonexistent?
> 
> For one thing, imo, they're overdone and overused in almost everything I see and I feel in some stories that it's just not needed. And there's the fact that I hate romance. I try to avoid putting romance in my stories because it's just overdone, and Twilight just ruined it for me, just like it did vampires .



Make characters.  Make them real, make them people, and make them be around each other and experience things together, and interact with each other.  If during the course of it, they fall in love, or out of love, or get married and make a life together, then I'm all for that.  If you're asking about a paper cut-out trophy wife who also probably happens to be a princess because that lets your hero sire royal children, then no, I hate those.  Link and Zelda pairing obviously excluded in most games because they're so cute together.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 10, 2014)

I never create a character just to be a love interest.  OK, that's a lie but that dude did have a separate life and story from the person he was matched with.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> She certainly seems like quite an entertaining character lol



She's going to need some fleshing out in a big way, but she's easily the most fun of the characters in this book to write.

I'm planning on trying to go the route that Crazymft has and just put out these short stories and have them kind of connect together like a TV show with episodes or something.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 10, 2014)

I should do some shorts. I  have a wide world. I can tell a lot of stories.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I should do some shorts. I  have a wide world. I can tell a lot of stories.



I just told Tyrael that I have characters from the novel appearing in this short story. Partially because I need some federal agent types and partially because I need someone British who can say this one funny line that I had in my head.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 10, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> She's going to need some fleshing out in a big way, but she's easily the most fun of the characters in this book to write.
> 
> I'm planning on trying to go the route that Crazymft has and just put out these short stories and have them kind of connect together like a TV show with episodes or something.



Indeed, I love making short stories. It's a lot easier to get people to read short stories than books and give feedback.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Indeed, I love making short stories. It's a lot easier to get people to read short stories than books and give feedback.



I am liking this a lot now that I'm in the middle of it. How many words are yours generally? 

Back on the subject of romance: do you guys skip the sex or just plow through it. I actually made the decision to skip the sex this time, but I did the lead up and follow up for it. Including some clean up.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 10, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am liking this a lot now that I'm in the middle of it. How many words are yours generally?
> 
> Back on the subject of romance: do you guys skip the sex or just plow through it. I actually made the decision to skip the sex this time, but I did the lead up and follow up for it. Including some clean up.



It matters. My short stories aren't very long but I only charge 99 cents for them. My latest one, Killing Your Boss, is 22,100 words. Close to that, anyway. 

And I like sex scenes so I take my time. Sometimes they are kinky and fun, sometimes just funny, sometimes fast, sometimes slow, and so on.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 10, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> It matters. My short stories aren't very long but I only charge 99 cents for them. My latest one, Killing Your Boss, is 22,100 words. Close to that, anyway.
> 
> And I like sex scenes so I take my time. Sometimes they are kinky and fun, sometimes just funny, sometimes fast, sometimes slow, and so on.



I plan to put this one out with around 50K words and my plan is to charge 2 or 3.99 for it. I plan to go back and get some really hard editing done and to get a cover drawn by someone I know. So that will take some time to get done. 

This was a quick passionate thing on the counter top, but the only time I ever actually wrote sex out was when I had a scene where two characters were forced to have sex as part of a spell component and they really didn't want to do it, but they were compelled to. I wrote it from her perspective and it came off as dark and dirty more than anything.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 10, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am liking this a lot now that I'm in the middle of it. How many words are yours generally?
> 
> Back on the subject of romance: do you guys skip the sex or just plow through it. I actually made the decision to skip the sex this time, but I did the lead up and follow up for it. Including some clean up.



I wrote a sex scene. It's not really necessary for the plot but I can't just skip it because there's a death right after that and I can't go to a different part of the book because there's nothing to tell. So sex :33


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 11, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> She's going to need some fleshing out in a big way, but she's easily the most fun of the characters in this book to write.
> 
> I'm planning on trying to go the route that Crazymft has and just put out these short stories and have them kind of connect together like a TV show with episodes or something.



Have you decided how you're going to handle her development? Typically I've noticed characters like her are handled one of two ways; either she readily becomes a kinder and more caring person or she uses her callousness as a mask for her real feelings, with only those closest to her being able to tell the subtle difference.

The main relationship in my story is between my main characters Aiden Sinclair and Emilia Shirodoko. Taking place 400 years in the past, Aiden and his companions arrive in Japan after four years travel from Europe at the rise of the Tokugawa Shogunate in Japan. Emilia is a half European and half Japanese Christian woman. Her father was once a Lord within the Shimabara prefecture, but once the Edict of Sakoku began to be enforced by the Shogunate, which persecuted Christians and foreigners in an effort to seclude Japan from the rest of the world, in a skirmish to remove her father from office her mother was killed, her father was forced to commit seppuku, and their lands were seized.

Emilia is left to her devices and eventually finds work as a Geisha. It is then that she Aiden meet, at first all he sees is a gorgeous woman and all she sees is a brute. But they eventually find that they share a similar pain and past, and where he finds his strength in combat she finds hers in her faith. Eventually they find love in each other in the midst of a rebellion.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am liking this a lot now that I'm in the middle of it. How many words are yours generally?
> 
> Back on the subject of romance: do you guys skip the sex or just plow through it. I actually made the decision to skip the sex this time, but I did the lead up and follow up for it. Including some clean up.



I love writing sex scenes, so much can be shown by the characters with so little dialogue. However for my story I've decided to skip them and handle it pretty much the same way as you


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

Hey, Avant, didn't you say you wanted to read my book?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

> Back on the subject of romance: do you guys skip the sex or just plow through it. I actually made the decision to skip the sex this time, but I did the lead up and follow up for it. Including some clean up.



I skip.  I guess if I ever get to a part where the story is better served by including it, I'd include it. But that's never come up for me.  The spell component thing and the sex-death sounds like it has something to offer that's more than just fanservice.  Like giving a dark and creepy feel, or being a flip for a character's death.  



Malicious Friday said:


> I wrote a sex scene. It's not really necessary for the plot but I can't just skip it because there's a death right after that and I can't go to a different part of the book because there's nothing to tell. So sex :33



Was it the same character being bed and burried?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 11, 2014)

Yes I do but I doubt I'll have time to since I ship out to the Corps any day now which will at least a 3 month hiatus from the forums for me.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Was it the same character being bed and burried?



Meaning... what? 



~Avant~ said:


> Yes I do but I doubt I'll have time to since I ship out to the Corps any day now which will at least a 3 month hiatus from the forums for me.



Boo, you whore. Lol. Just kidding. 

Just tell me when :33

And congrats on being shipped out the the Corps, even though I don't know what it is.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 11, 2014)

Did you all ready finish it? If so how would you like to send it to me? I can probably read it between workouts before I leave and post a scathing review for all to see lol


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

I did finish it, lol. But I changed a lot in the second half that I'm fixing in the first half of the book.

But I have the first 4-5 chapters, plus the prologue, on my old website, if you wanna do that.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am liking this a lot now that I'm in the middle of it. How many words are yours generally?
> 
> Back on the subject of romance: do you guys skip the sex or just plow through it. I actually made the decision to skip the sex this time, but I did the lead up and follow up for it. Including some clean up.



Depends if there is some aspect of the relationship I wanted to highlight or if I wanted to put a point on a running theme.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 11, 2014)

Sounds good post a link


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

The book :33

I'm putting the chapters on there as I go along with the editing just in case something happens to the word document.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

I have a short that was in the works. It was a noir story that I can't get back to because I'm hung up on a particular background detail.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Meaning... what?



Is the character in the sex scene that same one that gets killed in the death scene?

My bad for not being clear.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Also, @MF link bookmarked.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

Yeah. The magic the witch uses makes him have sex with her. (Her magic targets the part of the brain that make someone attracted to another person and multiplies that tenfold, pretty much making them have sex. But it only works on males.) Afterwards, he kisses him (this spell allows the witch to transfer a magical bacteria that she created herself and it target a command type center of the brain) and then she make him commit suicide by stabbing a knife repeatedly though his ear.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 11, 2014)

Jesus Christ thats brutal


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Wait a minute, how would he do it repeatedly?


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Jesus Christ thats brutal



 

Well she is sadistic...



Lord Yu said:


> Wait a minute, how would he do it repeatedly?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eyj1Iaw5zQ[/YOUTUBE]

I changed the scene up a lot but I still wanted to reference Higurashi.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Jesus Christ thats brutal



That was my reaction.



Lord Yu said:


> Wait a minute, how would he do it repeatedly?



Love gives you the strength to do the impossible.



Malicious Friday said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eyj1Iaw5zQ[/YOUTUBE]



I don't want to watch that video...

By the way, I'm reading chapter one.

You're very descriptive with your characters.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 11, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I wrote a sex scene. It's not really necessary for the plot but I can't just skip it because there's a death right after that and I can't go to a different part of the book because there's nothing to tell. So sex :33



A lot of the stuff in sex tends to be repetitive so I will tend to skip it unless there's something really plot specific that needs to be told in there or some good character development going on. 



~Avant~ said:


> Have you decided how you're going to handle her development? Typically I've noticed characters like her are handled one of two ways; either she readily becomes a kinder and more caring person or she uses her callousness as a mask for her real feelings, with only those closest to her being able to tell the subtle difference.



It won't be with her getting kinder more than likely. I mean, she's meant to stay pretty much as mean as she is and also not to be in any kind of long term relationships or fall in love. I think that being this way is in character for her. 

Her close friends and family already know that she cares about them. Most of her character development is in her maturing and learning to be an adult with how she is. 

She will probably become less prideful and a little less brash, but the other things will stay. 



~Avant~ said:


> The main relationship in my story is between my main characters Aiden Sinclair and Emilia Shirodoko. Taking place 400 years in the past, Aiden and his companions arrive in Japan after four years travel from Europe at the rise of the Tokugawa Shogunate in Japan. Emilia is a half European and half Japanese Christian woman. Her father was once a Lord within the Shimabara prefecture, but once the Edict of Sakoku began to be enforced by the Shogunate, which persecuted Christians and foreigners in an effort to seclude Japan from the rest of the world, in a skirmish to remove her father from office her mother was killed, her father was forced to commit seppuku, and their lands were seized.
> 
> Emilia is left to her devices and eventually finds work as a Geisha. It is then that she Aiden meet, at first all he sees is a gorgeous woman and all she sees is a brute. But they eventually find that they share a similar pain and past, and where he finds his strength in combat she finds hers in her faith. Eventually they find love in each other in the midst of a rebellion.



That sounds like a pretty complex relationship thing you have going on there. At least you put time into it, part of the reason I don't want to write it is because I don't want to have to build those kind of relationships for the story at this moment. 



~Avant~ said:


> I love writing sex scenes, so much can be shown by the characters with so little dialogue. However for my story I've decided to skip them and handle it pretty much the same way as you



Yeah, for a short story like mine it probably would distract too much.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eyj1Iaw5zQ[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> I changed the scene up a lot but I still wanted to reference Higurashi.



That's what I figured you were doing.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> A lot of the stuff in sex tends to be repetitive so I will tend to skip it unless there's something really plot specific that needs to be told in there or some good character development going on.



Well sex is pretty much you stick the penis in the vagina/ass and you thrust until you cum 

It's not that difficult, lol.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

*The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World thoughts:*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Cantorium is seriously unstable. Like the, "This war for power should be obvious to everyone who's been paying attention," kind of unstable.  Super god must have been bamf to keep his obvious grab for power from happening until after his death.

Mechanics wise, there are some missing periods, or commas, and sentences I find kinda off every here and then.  I'm not a great editor, so I can't really offer, but it might help if you had another pair of eyes to help catch those.  

I can also see some rather obviously FMA and AoT (SnK) influenced stuff in there as well.  I usually like those kind of things to be less obvious, but whatever you like.  The scenes aren't bad.

I really like your battle scenes and depictions.  Your descriptive talents really shine there, and it becomes almost like watching a movie, or anime fight scene.  But like, a good one, and better, because I get to hear their thoughts as well.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Plenty of the sex scenes I've written have been pretty crazy involving bloody torture or exhibitionism. I've settled down in the past few years.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World thoughts:*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Do you mean the character as a whole is unstable, or his actions are unstable? If it's the latter, then that's actually part of his character and it explained in book 2. Plus, he's not dead, just merely incapacitated.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 11, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Well sex is pretty much you stick the penis in the vagina/ass and you thrust until you cum
> 
> It's not that difficult, lol.



Well, there is other stuff that people could do. Even that stuff is pretty basic if you're only describing the action. 

And like Yu said there is other stuff that could happen during sex. I tend not to do too much of the violent sex stuff.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

"Oh yeah! Yes! Beat me with that whip like the slutty whore I am!! Oh yeah! YES!! Stick that rod in my dick! Stick in there DEEP!! YES! FUUUUUUUCCCCKKKKK!!!!" :33 

It's just wonderful.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Feb 11, 2014)

@MF: Read the prologue, heres what I think so far

Pros
-Your descriptions are great I can picture your characters very clearly
-Your characters all feel unique and different
-The overall plot looks to an interesting read and has a lot of potential

Cons
-Noticed a few typos and problems with sentence structuring
-The pacing felt a bit rushed
-I confused Stratorius and Stratorium a couple of times

@CBTK:

Thats an interesting way to go. Kinda reminds me of Klaus lol

In my experience relationships are seldom simple


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

By violent, I meant knives and bricks, not whips. Can be much funnier.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Do you mean the character as a whole is unstable, or his actions are unstable? If it's the latter, then that's actually part of his character and it explained in book 2. Plus, he's not dead, just merely incapacitated.



I updated my spoiler post to include more thoughts.  I haven't finished the chapter.

So far, his actions.  Like when I first saw his actions, I was like, "Yeah, this guy is obviously a backstabbing traitor who isn't going to give back power."  I was kind of shocked super god would even attempt to give him the benefit of the doubt.

He really plays to a nice theme of fire and passion, and being made of fire is pretty rad.  I like the style your gods have.

Also, it's really enjoyable to see Cryptorium the creepy actually be a fun and polite and well respected all around nice guy.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> @MF: Read the prologue, heres what I think so far
> 
> Pros
> -Your descriptions are great I can picture your characters very clearly
> ...



Thanks :33 Other people say the same things as well.

In terms of the pacing being rushed, people always tell me that, but I don't see how... actually, I do and I don't but I don't know how to fix it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Fuck you guys for being on so late. I need sleep. But my need to discuss is so strong.

@MF I get the feeling that my pacing is rushed. Though I don't have much outside confirmation.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> By violent, I meant knives and bricks, not whips. Can be much funnier.



Like when she says, "Stick it in me," and he shanks her in the kidneys?

Hilarious.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Who said it was violence against the woman? Are you some kind of barbarian?


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## ~Avant~ (Feb 11, 2014)

Well their were two points I felt were really rushed.

1. When Stratorium changes his mind over giving the crown to Cantorium
2. It felt like you pretty much phoned in the plot by having Stratorium announce he was breaking the crown into 13 pieces and putting them into humans until Stratious came of age

Maybe try reworking that


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

I definitely feel like MF's chapter prolougue is fast paced, but like he said, I'm not sure what he can do about it.  

I suppose it might be because there's a scene in heaven palace, and then suddenly there's a big war with lots of magical things fighting for who knows why, and it's just hectic.  Then before we really get to see or figure out the sides or survey the battlefield, we get a 3 on 1 god war, which also ends rather quickly given.  



> The Crown tries to stay on its master as if it is sentient. Statorius grunts as she steps on Cantorium’s head, willingly burning her foot, still trying to pry the Crown from the flaming head.
> 
> POP!



This part might be unintentionally hilarious.  Or it could just be me.



> Cantorium has fallen unconscious due to a seal on Amordius’s sword.



This bit might do with a bit of a build up.  I'd like to see Amordius placing or activating the seal, or something like that so I know it's happening, rather than it just being told to me after the fact that it happened and here's why.



> 2. It felt like you pretty much phoned in the plot by having Stratorium announce he was breaking the crown into 13 pieces and putting them into humans until Stratious came of age



I expected Cantorium to go off, and order a search for the jewels, and it to turn into a kind of fetch question.  Instead he just shows up with the crown and a red jewel going bonkers in the middle of a war.  Which was kind of fun.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Well their were two points I felt were really rushed.
> 
> 1. When Stratorium changes his mind over giving the crown to Cantorium
> 2. It felt like you pretty much phoned in the plot by having Stratorium announce he was breaking the crown into 13 pieces and putting them into humans until Stratious came of age
> ...



Maybe I can make it a bit more subtle than what I already have, with the Crown being split up and all.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Who said it was violence against the woman? Are you some kind of barbarian?



I support equal opportunities violence.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

A little bondage and spanking is necessary now and then.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 11, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> A little bondage and spanking is necessary now and then.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 11, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> A little bondage and spanking is necessary now and then.



I have a story with two succubi, so there might be some of that.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

Let's talk about setting tone.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 11, 2014)

I want my tone to be like the first Alien. It needs to be all rape, phalluses and penis.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 11, 2014)

My current tone is fairly casual but I always slip into horror eventually.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 12, 2014)

My tone is pretty much dark comedy, I think. I mean I just killed both my main characters pages apart (it's okay, they get better).


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 12, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> My current tone is fairly casual but I always slip into horror eventually.



Almost everything I write somehow falls into cuteness.  

It's an adorable curse.



Lord Yu said:


> Let's talk about setting tone.



I kind of view setting tone as set by how you frame the world view.  Take any scenario and pick out what a cheerful would see in it for a cheerful tone, or pick just what a depressed would take from it for a somber tone, and then describe it in that way, or just focus on those things.  Sort of like the idea behind those ink blot tests that were disproved and thrown out as bad science. So for me it isn't really about building a world that's X, and instead taking a view that's X, and extracting that from whatever place or event.

More generally, I kind of decide what tone I want by choosing which elements I'm going to introduce, or not introduce overall.  I won't talk about sex or death or rape, or hint at it, or even have it as something that could be considered or extrapolated from an event if I want happy fun Y7 adventures.  Everyone beat up will just get knocked out, and all kinds of grim realities will be tossed and not worried about just because they wouldn't fit that type of story.  Then if I want that stuff, I go and make a different story where they're treated with respect, or given at least indirect mention early on, so the reader is able to build some expectations of the world and type of story it will be, and can actually get into those scenes when they come, rather than be blindsided and repulsed.

I remember one story I read that didn't do that, and then halfway through a chapter the main character casually decapitated someone in an alleyway tussle, and continued fighting in a non-flagrantly murderous fashion.  It was emotionally jarring in an unintended and not very good way.  It can also go the other way, where there are promises that bad things can happen, actions have consequences, and there are terrible people who will feed children to their siblings and make their parents watch, but when the opportunity arrives for that, it's all kiddiefied.  Which is also annoying.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 12, 2014)

For an example maybe, I have crazy super power fights but most of my fights begin and end realistically. I had a magic sword fight end with one combatant taking out a gun and shooting the other in the head.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 13, 2014)

Unless there are personal reasons, or character reasons, like it's an honor dual, or someone is explicitly holding back or trying to stretch out the fun, I always try to have each party doing everything they reasonably can to end a fight as quickly and practically as possible.  Which sometimes means that people die before they get to show off the full range of abilities I gave them.  :/


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 13, 2014)

I do that too. There's no reason that if someone has a gun they won't use it.  In my story there are certain enemies you don't want to use projectile weapons against.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 14, 2014)

Well, a gun doesn't sound like it should be able to do that. In my stories, the technology (which is so advanced it looks like magic) and magic wielded is too high powered for guns to work (the bullet would splinter apart if it made contact) but I do agree that actual battles shouldn't be lengthy. Instead, I usually make battles a trainwreck with 5+ warriors. This leads to one character having to interrupt, redirect, counter and guard against lots of attacks, so they take more time than they would one on one.

One on one fights become an "unstoppable force meets immovable object" affair that leads to the strongest winning the exchange before disengaging with a finisher.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 14, 2014)

My angels and demons and most of my other creatures can be shot by bullets and injured if they're not shielding themselves with something, but their wings are highly resistant to attack (so much so that one angel even uses their wings to protect themselves from a nuclear bomb, they do fall off after). They also have a shield made from their soul, but it can only take attacks up to a point and too many attacks or if someone attacks with their body or an item wrapped in their soul the same way it can cut through. 

It's kind of complex to explain it like this and i haven't really gotten to anyone using it in the books yet.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 15, 2014)

The general rule for fighting mages in my world is only use guns at point blank range. Most magic students who know they are going to see some kind of combat study how to circumvent firearms. There are a whole set of rules of engagement against magic users. Ones I should probably better explain to my audience.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 15, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> The general rule for fighting mages in my world is only use guns at point blank range. Most magic students who know they are going to see some kind of combat study how to circumvent firearms. There are a whole set of rules of engagement against magic users. Ones I should probably better explain to my audience.



I'm using D&D rules for magic in that any magic user has to have movement of their hands to do magic (well when it comes to Humans). So grabbing their arms and pinning them down will stop them. Or pulling their arms out of socket--which a character did to someone recently.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 15, 2014)

I go by incantation for humans.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 15, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I go by incantation for humans.



They have both: vocal and motion components. Sometimes there's a sacrifice needed or some other thing depending on the spell. And some spells require a build up of these kind of prerequisite spells.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 15, 2014)

I really need to sort my magic system out because my protagonist violates the normal rules on the regular due to being the daughter of a god and a spirit beacon.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm really strict about not letting anyone violate any rules of magic.  I don't like it when I read a story, and there are rules told to me as absolute natural laws, that wind up getting broken later when convenient or by the main character because they're special or have money.

But in your case, if we're first introduced to the person who breaks rules, or operates on a different set of rules, and then we're told that there are actually supposed to be rules, and everyone else follows them. . . I could probably actually get into that, since you're breaking rules before you've given me any promise of them.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 15, 2014)

Rules for magic in my story are dependent on the source of magic.  That's one clear rule I laid out.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 15, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I go by incantation for humans.



In my case, it's merely spontaneous, so long as you have the creativity to cook up a certain arrangement, as the magic I use is rather unorthodox.



Lord Yu said:


> I really need to sort my magic system out because my protagonist violates the normal rules on the regular due to being the daughter of a god and a spirit beacon.



I have many different species, however, a subset of an species in my world have a different advantage.

Main character happens to be a part of that group. How do you feel about a male "descendant" of Siegfried and Brynhildr who wields Balmung and her Spear?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'm really strict about not letting anyone violate any rules of magic.  I don't like it when I read a story, and there are rules told to me as absolute natural laws, that wind up getting broken later when convenient or by the main character because they're special or have money.
> 
> But in your case, if we're first introduced to the person who breaks rules, or operates on a different set of rules, and then we're told that there are actually supposed to be rules, and everyone else follows them. . . I could probably actually get into that, since you're breaking rules before you've given me any promise of them.



Well, you could say I operate "without rules" as it is, as the magic used within my world is "tailor made" for each specific mage, everyone makes their own "spellbook" with spells only they can cast, usually revolving around that person's own personality and how he'd use an element or energy. Someone may have the ability to create electrifying chains, whereas other may be able to create poisonous vines instead, and many may even share the same spell, but it is cast with a different name and moves differently. No need for incantation or gestures other than calling the name out and opening or closing your hands. The problem is crafting the spell, as you have to go to your "mindscape" (inner world where you can train) and start experimenting with name and word combinations and think particular thoughts at the same time to "find" a new spell. It's tightly wound with pleasant thoughts, such as calming ones for binding/healing, exhilarating ones for powerful attacks and melancholic (yet positive) ones for attacks that inflict status ailments and the like.

Afterwards, it's only a matter of gathering the energy, which is once more, related to emotions... There is even a "high tension" state in which a person who is under an adrenaline, stimulant or just a battle high, the caster's spells become incredibly powerful, and a "serenity" state in which calm moments or a sensation of well-being may lead to enhanced speed and precision. Negative emotions don't block spells, but they reverse the effect, meaning that weak emotions enhance power and strong ones precision, and neutral emotions are like good emotions, but casting spells like this may prove taxing because the "ignition" of spells, "drive", is missing.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm jealous of all these well thought out magic systems.  I don't think I could ever commit to a concrete scientific system. It seems like it would run against the psychedelic crazy nature of my stories.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 16, 2014)

Being wacky works too. As a matter of fact, my magic system is pretty much "if you can imagine X, you can cast it".


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 16, 2014)

I'm a hard believer in there needing to be some rules and some loss for using magic. Even if the rules aren't all pointed out to the reader I feel like there needs to be a sense that things are restricted in some way. 

Magic in my world is getting dumbed down. The huge thing I'm trying to do is cut all of the other types of creatures out. By that I mean that I am going to get rid of vampires and all of the other stuff and kind of restrict it down to angels, demons, and lovecraftian horrors.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 16, 2014)

^ So basically, Nasuverse?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 16, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ^ So basically, Nasuverse?



Come again? 

(No idea what this is)


----------



## Tyrael (Feb 16, 2014)

- worth reading for anyone using a magic system.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 16, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Come again?
> 
> (No idea what this is)



Look up Type Moon.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 16, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Come again?
> 
> (No idea what this is)



Fate/stay night, Fate/Zero, Kara no Kyoukai (Garden of Sinners), Tsukihime (Moon Princess) and so on. It's an anime franchise known for having a really bleak magic system. It's called "Equivalent exchange" and requires sacrifice and whatnot to make magic work.

If you make a magical construct, it'll wither away unless someone's shouldering the maintenance cost (magical constructs are unstable because they're made of energy, so they need an influx of mana to keep existing) and magic as a whole is either rare, painful, confusing or any of those put together.

Their world building is bleak as well, just like you mentioned, the angelic beings and gods are extinct with the exception of a select few that no longer interfere unless shit hits the fan, there are the humans that can use magic to a limited extent (it is slowly declining) and then there are a bunch of demonic monsters and alien abominations from other worlds that hold far more magical power than most humans. It's only because of the remaining gods' empathy for humanity that they've managed to reach that far.

Not the happiest place to be around. It contrasts strongly with Harry Potter and the like. It also contrasts too heavily against my works, where magic is a wonderful thing everyone can do if they wish, and aligns better with most Disney magic and, in anime, series like Symphogear, Tales of, Bleach, Soul Calibur and Lyrical Nanoha.

Overall, magic can be a good, effortless thing, or something that might kill you.


----------



## Lord Yu (Feb 16, 2014)

It's not an anime franchise it's a Visual Novel Franchise. There was no Tsukihime anime or one for their latest VN.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> It's not an anime franchise it's a Visual Novel Franchise. *There was no Tsukihime anime* or one for their latest VN.



Not that meme again 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukihime‎

As a whole, if I use anime, it can be either anime or an umbrella for anything in Japanese media...

I know it's confusing, but I got used to it, so no turning back now.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

On other stuff, how do you guys design your characters (physical appearance) and could you mention the aesthetic you use?


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## Lord Yu (Feb 17, 2014)

Anime, metal/punk music culture, high fashion, low culture literature.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

Hmm, not unlike mine. Anime aesthetic (or Final Fantasy XIII style CGI), European haute couture, wacky hair colours and most importantly; Long, voluminous, straight hair in both genders, with stylish bangs and lots of colors and accessories. Also, most outfits are really complex-patterned but rather revealing (once more, both genders fall under this) and guys using shorts over pants to match the girls' skirts. And I'm talking about short shorts.

Just for comparison (and because we have someone with the sig here), my main story's protagonist is a bishounen guy... and, appearance and outfit-wise, he resembles Milla (Tales of Xillia) a bit, but with white eyes.

Oh yeah, unusual eye and hair color combinations. I also give most of my characters at least two hair and eye colors, either different ones to provide contrast, or just a different shade of the same color.

And accessories, SPECIALLY fingerless gloves and those weird boots that become intertwined straps when reaching thigh height, and hair decs, too.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't really work too hard in designing outfits most of the time. People tend not to adventure or do everyday stuff in overly elaborate outfits. My protagonist and her crew wear uniforms with some strange colors on them but they're still very practical.

I've had characters with heterochromia. My protagonist's mother has heterochromia. I tend not to go super weird with character looks without good reason. I prefer natural to super unique. My protagonist just has kind of wavy black hair and gray eyes. My aesthetic leans more realistic. Though I do get out there with the deyul and spirits.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 17, 2014)

I draw my characters out usually. But for the most part, I try to keep my designs as simple and modern as possible. I don't like that complex shit where they have tons of jewelry, piercings and clothes on them.

Examples:

Adirus-Blue dress suit with a white collar shirt. Panty-hoes and dark blue high heels with a fedora. 

Jackson-Generally wears all black or black and white in his everyday clothes. He usually has on a leather jacket, black jeans, black shoes/sandals and a white shirt. 

Kajiki-Blue jacket with a red line coming down the middle, white shirt underneath with red collar. He has jeans that are purposely ripped and brown shoes.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 17, 2014)

I map out my characters out by genetics, culture, and personal preference. 

Gene, Meme, Scene.

So just logic. I really doubt I could really overdesign like they would in Final Fantasy. My protagonist has neon color on her uniform but it's still very practical. The designer was just off her head.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't really work too hard in designing outfits most of the time. People tend not to adventure or do everyday stuff in overly elaborate outfits. My protagonist and her crew wear uniforms with some strange colors on them but they're still very practical.
> 
> I've had characters with heterochromia. My protagonist's mother has heterochromia. I tend not to go super weird with character looks without good reason. I prefer natural to super unique. My protagonist just has kind of wavy black hair and gray eyes. My aesthetic leans more realistic. Though I do get out there with the deyul and spirits.



Well, considering that it still works, as the outfits I design aren't just revealing, they also allow for more freedom of movement, I don't see them as impractical. My quirks when it comes to outfits is placing open parts here and there, bound together by straps rather than a whole piece of fabric, adding different colors to separate the different sections of something. That and make the outfits form fitting, since that is not really a nuisance. Also, I do have that whole thing about taking outfits and removing some part, such as when a characters boots stop being "solid" near the end and become just a bunch of straps.

Also, I don't like heterochromia much. Instead, I simply envision "gradient eyes" in which there's a color near the center and another on the edges. Either that, or the upper and lower parts have different colors. If I'm feeling creative, then I might overlay one on top of the other, such as the eyes actually having no color and being composed of numerous, minuscule pink and blue strings.

The reason is that I'm not really dealing with humans, but with Aliens, which, as a matter of fact, where mistaken for Norse, Greek, Egyptian, Germanic, Pagan and even Native American deities hundreds of years ago, so the strange appearance is a given, as well as a requirement, given they have "unattainable beauty" as an attribute, and I wanted to make characters whose attractiveness served as a power gauge.

There's also the fact that my male characters are rather feminine looking, having the appearance of a tomboy girl instead.



Malicious Friday said:


> I draw my characters out usually. But for the most part, I try to keep my designs as simple and modern as possible. I don't like that complex shit where they have tons of jewelry, piercings and clothes on them.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...



When you design child, young or late teen characters whose ancestors were mistaken for almighty gods who bent creation to their will and where loved and worshipped by thousands, you want to deck them out in the modern day version of the rarest and most expensive clothing, technology and accessories that can be found, specially in 2023.

Mind you, while I do use unusual names, I try to keep those more or less normal.

Main character: Aston Gryffynn: A character that I also use for gaming and fanfiction, I devised him about 6 years ago. To those who know about Tekken, his personality is pretty much a male version of Emilie de Rochefort's/Lili's own. He has long, straight, voluminous thigh length vivid blond hair, white eyes, pale skin, a really feminine and soft face and long legs. He's thin but slightly muscular and stands at 5'11''. Hails from South Africa. Is actually a Valkyrie and wields Siegfried's own Balmung as well as Brynhildr's staff Romantia (the actual staff is unnamed yet, so I'm borrowing TM's name while working on it).

His "non-combat" gear consists of a black, form fitting, long sleeved plastic shirt (plastic became common for outfits by then) with the sleeves opening at the ends, and having openings on the sides, shoulders and under the arms.
The shirt has an opening in the center and the shirt is kept together by black straps that form a "pointing down" pattern and leave open patches of visible skin. He uses dark blue denim short shorts with wide openings on the sides tied together with blue cords. These are mostly concealed by his shirt and include openings in the middle. He wears high heeled leather thigh high boots with purple soles that disintegrate into straps that coil around his upper left thigh before ending and his right thigh boot has a purple, stocking like extension that covers that part instead, but is still lower than the left side.

He wears elbow length purple fingerless gloves under the sleeves, and the sleeves' and shirt open parts are lined by purple trimmings. He wears a platinum feather pendant on his neck and also uses golden, glittering balls that dangle randomly and mix with his mane. His bangs' edges are lined by a shade of gold darker than the rest of his hair.

Sounds wacky, right? Think again.



It's modeled after that outfit, and before you guys ask, yes, the guy has nice enough legs to show them off like that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 17, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> On other stuff, how do you guys design your characters (physical appearance) and could you mention the aesthetic you use?



Mine will sometimes have a certain look, but they're living in a world similar to the real world in cities that actually exist so they dress appropriately for their time period and their tastes. Like one of my characters wears dresses almost exclusively.

That's just her. 

Another likes obscure band t-shirts when she's sitting about the house. 

And I have a guy who always seems overdressed for a situation.

Even the angels and demons tend to dress appropriately modern.

As for the eye and hair color thing, most of the hair is normal colors. My part angel characters do have strange eyes, they have two colors in a single eye (like green with a blue center). It's one of the ways you can identify someone having a diving parent, though it's not super easy to see all the time. 

Also, I've established that since a succubus is made to be attractive her body actively fights anything that would make her not so. Her skin is pretty much perfect, her hair falls neatly, but doesn't resist attempts to be styled and they have an ultra high metabolism.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 17, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Hmm, not unlike mine. Anime aesthetic (or Final Fantasy XIII style CGI), European haute couture, wacky hair colours and most importantly; Long, voluminous, straight hair in both genders, with stylish bangs and lots of colors and accessories. Also, most outfits are really complex-patterned but rather revealing (once more, both genders fall under this) and guys using shorts over pants to match the girls' skirts. And I'm talking about short shorts.
> 
> Just for comparison (*and because we have someone with the sig here*), my main story's protagonist is a bishounen guy... and, appearance and outfit-wise, he resembles Milla (Tales of Xillia) a bit, but with white eyes.
> 
> ...



Posting for clarity.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 17, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't really work too hard in designing outfits most of the time. People tend not to adventure or do everyday stuff in overly elaborate outfits. My protagonist and her crew wear uniforms with some strange colors on them but they're still very practical.
> 
> I've had characters with heterochromia. My protagonist's mother has heterochromia. I tend not to go super weird with character looks without good reason. I prefer natural to super unique. My protagonist just has kind of wavy black hair and gray eyes. My aesthetic leans more realistic. Though I do get out there with the deyul and spirits.



Same.  Everyone dresses practically and reasonably for their jobs and professions, climate, and culture, unless they have a good reason not to.  

Oh and taste.  Clothing should match personality just as much as anything.

Overall, it's my weakest point.  I tend not to think about how characters look, and when I read a story that spends paragraphs describing outfits, I just skip over it and imagine them how I want anyway.  I guess I sort of expect people to do the same, thought I shouldn't.  And then I just copy Fire Emblem.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 17, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No offense man, but I've thought and still think Milla Maxwell is terribly overdesigned. I like her as a character but I think they went too far with her design. Probably one of the results of their rushed preproduction schedule.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 17, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Same.  Everyone dresses practically and reasonably for their jobs and professions, climate, and culture, unless they have a good reason not to.
> 
> Oh and taste.  Clothing should match personality just as much as anything.
> 
> Overall, it's my weakest point.  I tend not to think about how characters look, and when I read a story that spends paragraphs describing outfits, I just skip over it and imagine them how I want anyway.  I guess I sort of expect people to do the same, thought I shouldn't.  And then I just copy Fire Emblem.




Sometimes those descriptions might actually be plot relevant. I know some of mine are.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Mine will sometimes have a certain look, but they're living in a world similar to the real world in cities that actually exist so they dress appropriately for their time period and their tastes. Like one of my characters wears dresses almost exclusively.
> 
> That's just her.
> 
> ...



Well, I don't know about you, but the story is set 8 years in the future, and it's an Alternate History, where 2012 did happen and the Earth's population was halved (23% died) and, for some reason, most of the dead were those in the lower strata of society, this, combined with the world's government's spilling the beans on secrets and technology has led to a society that is more inclined to believe in the mythical and magic, is somewhat more advanced (most of the stuff is still the same) and have things like moving sidewalks in the streets (only some), high speed, wide-body, transcontinental cable cars,
and wireless electricity. Cars are all electric and skyscrapers like Burj Khalifa are the norm. There is a lot of public space and green areas well mantained and next to no poverty. Computer GUIs are almost exclusively "Metro" now and most people drive cars that look like high end Bugatti and Ferrari. The technology, purchasing power, urbanism, etc, is comparable to that of 2013 film Elysium (what's in the space station, not the planet) with the exception being the presence of skyscrapers and giant squares (modeled after Picadilly and Trafalgar squares) and the absence of robots, implants and medicams. It may also be comparable to an streamlined version of what's inside the Macross Frontier ship. "Plushy" Cellphones like what Ranka Lee uses in Macross Frontier are growing in popularity.

As a whole, it's "Twenty minutes into the future" (TVTropes again) and clothing goes accordingly. Even then, what the main characters use is unusually expensive and rare, (normal people can buy it, but they'll find it slightly expensive) so the complex outfit is not the norm, but not unusual either.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Same.  Everyone dresses practically and reasonably for their jobs and professions, climate, and culture, unless they have a good reason not to.
> 
> *Oh and taste.  Clothing should match personality just as much as anything.*
> 
> Overall, it's my weakest point.  I tend not to think about how characters look, and when I read a story that spends paragraphs describing outfits, I just skip over it and imagine them how I want anyway.  I guess I sort of expect people to do the same, thought I shouldn't.  And then I just copy Fire Emblem.



Well, the characters dress up as they like. The main character has an affinity for revealing outfits or shorts that emulate miniskirts because his legs are his preferred hand to hand combat weapon.



Lord Yu said:


> No offense man, but I've thought and still think Milla Maxwell is terribly overdesigned. I like her as a character but I think they went too far with her design. Probably one of the results of their rushed preproduction schedule.



I'm on the opposite boat, I hate her as a character, but love her design. She has a simpler look-alike in Code Geass: Akito the Exiled. I hate her even more.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 17, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Well, the characters dress up as they like. The main character has an affinity for revealing outfits or shorts that emulate miniskirts because his legs are his preferred hand to hand combat weapon.
> 
> .



That makes me think he'd want to keep them protected. There's range of motion and then there is vulnerability.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> That makes me think he'd want to keep them protected. There's range of motion and then there is vulnerability.



That's why the boots are thigh-high and devolve into straps near the ends. The straps act not unlike chainmail, diverting any blows to the straps rather than taking the full force over his legs. He's an acrobatic fighter when unarmed (he puts Lightning (FFXIII) to shame in the acrobatics department) and most of his throws grapple opponents between his legs.

When he summons his armor, they're thigh high boots that cover most of his legs, but still leave a narrow gap between his robe and the boots. I avoid long pant legs and need an "skirt-like" structure so much so as to not hamper the mobility of his legs. It also provides an element of fanservice in his "delicious thighs" as Fluttershy (the user) once put it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 17, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> No offense man, but I've thought and still think Milla Maxwell is terribly overdesigned. I like her as a character but I think they went too far with her design. Probably one of the results of their rushed preproduction schedule.



She is over-designed, but in universe, that's because her fanboi handmaiden buys and picks her outfits, and her hair is styled by a wind spirit.  Milla herself has no understanding of style, tradition, modesty, shame, or any of the other aesthetics humans use to select their clothing outside of it being "easy to move in", so I think it matches her character by not a good design.  Plus she had guardian spirits protecting her from heat, cold, dirt, rain, and any other practical purpose for clothing.  And with her entire village being devout so devout they grovel and worship and think they're unworthy of seeing her, you get a real Emperor's New Clothes situation going on.

Which may have just been excuses written up later from a rushed preproduction like you said, but I bought it. She's still got the waistline of a Pringle's can though.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Sometimes those descriptions might actually be plot relevant. I know some of mine are.



Yeah, when they come up in plot, I edit my mental image and remember them.  Until then, they're all the sprites from FF6.  I need to work more plot relevant clothing into my stories, now that you mention it. Thanks.

I might just be jaded from all the stories I read where someone is dressed in a bell gown that somehow never hinders them, or tears through bramble in a miniskirt, or other stories where someone is dressed for fashion over form, but it never effects them negatively. 



Lord Yu said:


> That makes me think he'd want to keep them protected. There's range of motion and then there is vulnerability.



I was just thinking that.  Leather is okay, but unless he has unnaturally tough skin and iron shins, he's going to run the risk of self damage, or counter damage.  Especially if he fights someone with a blade.

If it's really high tech, and they have strong and resistant synthetics, then I could buy it.  Like those clothes that harden at the moment of impact to become stab resistant.  Those would be cool.  Full flexibility and movement until your kick lands, and the striking surface hardens to steel to protect you and maximize damage.


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## Tyrael (Feb 17, 2014)

As far as I can tell all my characters are naked.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 17, 2014)

So much effort for stuff your readers will never see...I guess if you get an artist to draw for your book it might work. I'm like Pirate on this, if clothes are too elaborate my mind will just wonder off and imagine them however I want.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 17, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yeah, when they come up in plot, I edit my mental image and remember them.  Until then, they're all the sprites from FF6.  I need to work more plot relevant clothing into my stories, now that you mention it. Thanks.
> 
> I might just be jaded from all the stories I read where someone is dressed in a bell gown that somehow never hinders them, or tears through bramble in a miniskirt, or other stories where someone is dressed for fashion over form, but it never effects them negatively.


I start off with clothing inconveniencing one of my characters. I write them so that they're realistic in how they can move and react dressed in certain ways. Cool looking clothing doesn't serve as much function as they would on a visual medium. 

I try to only describe something fancy when they have reason to be fancy. The one exception is Dee, she has slight reality bending abilities and the rules don't apply to her.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> She is over-designed, but in universe, that's because her fanboi handmaiden buys and picks her outfits, and her hair is styled by a wind spirit.  Milla herself has no understanding of style, tradition, modesty, shame, or any of the other aesthetics humans use to select their clothing outside of it being "easy to move in", so I think it matches her character by not a good design.  Plus she had guardian spirits protecting her from heat, cold, dirt, rain, and any other practical purpose for clothing.  And with her entire village being devout so devout they grovel and worship and think they're unworthy of seeing her, you get a real Emperor's New Clothes situation going on.
> 
> Which may have just been excuses written up later from a rushed preproduction like you said, but I bought it. She's still got the waistline of a Pringle's can though.
> 
> ...



Lol, the Emperor's New X all over again :rofl

That said, about the outfit (and character), he is naturally stronger and more resilient than your average human (or your average Mount Rushmore) and his skin is touch enough that no bullet short of a tank round is likely to even scratch it. That said, that's not his combat outfit, or it's made for light combat with other hand to hand opponents or fights he can finish with a single blow. The boots are made of a polished, reinforced type of leather that can absorb cuts, and even then, that outfit is supposed to be made for speed and dodging, not tanking hits. Also, he has high heels there. I'm pretty sure those are his first option whenever he kicks or steps on someone's face (or even when he makes a throw and smothers his target's head between his legs )

Also, it is somewhat technologically advanced:



> Well, I don't know about you, but the story is set 8 years in the future, and it's an Alternate History, where 2012 did happen and the Earth's population was halved (23% died) and, for some reason, most of the dead were those in the lower strata of society, this, combined with the world's government's spilling the beans on secrets and technology has led to a society that is more inclined to believe in the mythical and magic, is somewhat more advanced (most of the stuff is still the same) and have things like moving sidewalks in the streets (only some), high speed, wide-body, transcontinental cable cars and wireless electricity transfer.



Also, don't worry, they're not stilettos, but the soles are made of a new black mineral that, in that setting, is to guys what diamonds are to girls. Needless to say, it's really hard...

For his actual battle armor, his legs are almost completely covered and only an small line of flesh is visible. The material is synthetic and absorbs impact as a whole, as does his upper robes. The armor's endurance? You could _try_ ramming an Airbus A380 loaded with nitro at full speed into him if you want to stun him briefly. Since summoning the armor also boosts his natural endurance, you're going to need a really powerful ballistic missile at point blank to score a wound. Then again, as I said, most characters in the story are so powerful that when drawing comparisons, one of them has the projection power of a full fledged blue water navy.

The power level is more or less on par with Bleach and somewhat above Type Moon servants.



Lord Yu said:


> So much effort for stuff your readers will never see...I guess if you get an artist to draw for your book it might work. I'm like Pirate on this, if clothes are too elaborate my mind will just wonder off and imagine them however I want.



I usually sketch the outfit, design the character in a simpler outfit, and then start modifying the simple outfit until it seems like the character has the actual one.


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## Cjones (Feb 17, 2014)

I try to design/describe the aesthetics of my characters clothing based on their personality or the character archetype. 

In the story I'm drafting, the Archangel Raphael is a very elegant and gentle type (she's like Unohana from Bleach) so I tend to describe her clothing as very chic or sophisticated in nature. 



Sleipnyr said:


> That's why the boots are thigh-high and devolve into straps near the ends. The straps act not unlike chainmail, diverting any blows to the straps rather than taking the full force over his legs. He's an acrobatic fighter when unarmed (he puts Lightning (FFXIII) to shame in the acrobatics department) and most of his throws grapple opponents between his legs.
> 
> When he summons his armor, they're thigh high boots that cover most of his legs, but still leave a narrow gap between his robe and the boots. I avoid long pant legs and need an "skirt-like" structure so much so as to not hamper the mobility of his legs. It also provides an element of fanservice in his *"delicious thighs"* as Fluttershy (the user) once put it.



 I gotta admit, I was thinking along the same line when I was reading your description.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 17, 2014)

Cjones said:


> I try to design/describe the aesthetics of my characters clothing based on their personality or the character archetype.
> 
> In the story I'm drafting, the Archangel Raphael is a very elegant and gentle type (she's like Unohana from Bleach) so I tend to describe her clothing as very chic or sophisticated in nature.
> 
> ...



That's the point. A male character is not supposed to work as eye candy for a guy, but I made it so that he could. Given his physical appearance, you'd think he was a girl until he turned around.

Also, more sig reference. For those curious into the style of the armor and magic I use, look at Cjones sig. It's more or less like that.

Alternatively, search "Senki Zesshou Symphogear" to get an idea.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 18, 2014)

My ADHD makes maintaining a mental image of my characters hard. So far giving her a distinctive uniform made Alatatsue, my protagonist, easier to envision.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 18, 2014)

It's the opposite for me. I can't remember characters unless I make them colorful snowflakes. I made one such character and at some point completely forgot about it. I had to give him unique traits to be able to remember him.

When it comes to names though, I do go for either standard or old, or automotive/rolling stock/aviation/nautical related names. At worst, gender inverted names. For one, three male characters of mine are named Ashleigh, Autumn and, for Japanese ones, Tomoe.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 18, 2014)

Also, has anybody mentioned power? As in "how powerful their characters usually are"?


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## crazymtf (Feb 18, 2014)

Got another review for my short story =)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 18, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> It's the opposite for me. I can't remember characters unless I make them colorful snowflakes. I made one such character and at some point completely forgot about it. I had to give him unique traits to be able to remember him.
> 
> When it comes to names though, I do go for either standard or old, or automotive/rolling stock/aviation/nautical related names. At worst, gender inverted names. For one, three male characters of mine are named Ashleigh, Autumn and, for Japanese ones, Tomoe.



I have tried to limit the number of characters that I generally mention and have running around at one time so I don't forget about anyone. Especially in this short story. I feel like I am going to have to have all of these plots balanced and the like, but I don't want to have plot strands that I just completely forget or neglect over the course of the novel/book. 

I tend to keep detailed offline notes and this helps me remember who was where last. 



Sleipnyr said:


> Also, has anybody mentioned power? As in "how powerful their characters usually are"?



I'm pretty sure that it's been discussed in the last few pages, actually. I don't remember what exactly was said. But the characters in most of the stories here seem to scale in a sort of anime style power arena. 

Lord Yu's characters I don't have a sense of yet, though. 

Tyrael's tend to be human or low powered. 

And mine range between reality warping horrors that the mere thought of can drive a person insane and a guy who's just a really good shot.


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## Tyrael (Feb 18, 2014)

Yeah, I've not written anything involving super powers or anything like that for years. My tier list would probs be based on who spends more time a week working out.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 18, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Yeah, I've not written anything involving super powers or anything like that for years. My tier list would probs be based on who spends more time a week working out.



But do they even lift, bro? 

And what's this about not writing about super powers for years? You calling us immature?


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## Tyrael (Feb 18, 2014)

Them there's fightin' words.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 18, 2014)




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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 18, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Also, has anybody mentioned power? As in "how powerful their characters usually are"?



It depends on what setting I'm going for.  

Usually I like to keep people capped at a point where environmental hazards can kill them.  So with few exceptions, if you cause a cave in, or drop a building on someone's head, or they get caught in a raging river or fall off a cliff, they're going to do something to prevent themselves from getting seriously hurt or dying.  This lets me keeps terrain and tactics and strategy in situations, and gives a sense of real danger when traversing the world, outside of having someone stronger to threaten them.  It also gives weaker people a means of winning against stronger people without always needing to power up, and keeps my story from turning my into DBZ.  Though people are still beyond peak human, and have lots of cool powers.  I mainly keep down stamina, durability, and generic destruction.  So you can't survive a house thrown on your head, felling a house is a big deal, and if you can knock down a house you can't just run around knocking down every house and building until the city falls without lots of naps.

In other stories, it's like Tyreal's.  Who's more fit and took a karate class when they were 5.  Or ones where beating up a couple of punks makes you strong.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 18, 2014)

So you're writing a story about a wrecking crew?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 18, 2014)

Because I like excerpts. 



> “The whole you having a daughter thing kind of slipped my mind.”
> 
> Lewis smiles. “No it didn’t.”
> 
> ...


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## Nordstrom (Feb 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> So you're writing a story about a wrecking crew?



I wish!

My story is pretty much "Old Age Mythology and Magic comes back" and the main cast is made up of aliens which people believed where gods, Mages, Wizards, Spellcasters, Dragon Riders, Shapeshifters, magitek armed humans and angels, harpies, mermaids, sirens and the like.

Power wise, they range from people who can wreak Conney Island to people who can wreak the entire District of Columbia. However, their compatibility enables them to fight even Lovecraftian horrors (even though they don't exist in the story).

As a whole, the main cast is a modern day, teen version of the Argonauts/Olympian gods.

I will post an excerpt later to go on to the next thing: Writing style.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> So you're writing a story about a wrecking crew?



....

Well _now_ I am.

The story of Cliff Fitter.

"I'm a one man wrecking crew!"

The story in question was about wizards and other magic type things.  It came off that way because I had (Fate Stay Night) Rin Tousaka's magic destruction descriptor in mind when I tried to think up a good parallel.  "It was a wind spell, one of my specialties, and strong enough to topple a house. . " So I just went with all housing descriptions.  I also want at least one scene where a tower, some tower, an _evil_ tower, is self destructing, and everyone needs to escape, and a cave-in that separates a party, with neither of them being contrived.  Which every fantasy book should have, and which can't happen if all the characters can Superman through a mountain.


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## Risyth (Feb 19, 2014)

No love for DBZ-style fights?

Lol, I get it.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 19, 2014)

Risyth said:


> No love for DBZ-style fights?
> 
> Lol, I get it.



Not sure if DBZ, but fight scenes in my stories are usually flashy free for alls between at least 31+ characters and has a lot of talking, but the action doesn't stops, so they talk while exchanging blows and attacks, as if they were sparring or wouldn't get hurt, because they really can't get killed even by their own high powered attacks, just take enough damage to pull back of the fight. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oAxyMZqhgM[/YOUTUBE]

That's how fights usually look in my head, music and all.


----------



## Cjones (Feb 19, 2014)

DBZ style fights are kwel, but I think most of the upper echelon should only be capable of such destruction. So I can agree with The Pirate in that regard. It's hard to make tense situations, such as a cave in and such, when most of the characters can hulk smash through islands.

In my story at the moment, the strongest human'll be able to destroy mountains and shid. While other humans won't get anywhere that kind of power.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 19, 2014)

My fights look something along the lines of these videos: 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2XE6ZrvFFI[/YOUTUBE]


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFvRgIR5re0[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yQBG1KTS4M[/YOUTUBE]

Or, at least that's how I imagine them 

A part of that  Kill la Kill fight is going in my book


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## Velocity (Feb 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Because I like excerpts.



Excerpts are nice and I'm bored. 



> Sarah instinctively flinched, closing her eyes and recoiling as she felt the axe swing towards her. It was over. She had failed to find her brother and time seemed to slow to a crawl as she waited for the blow that would end her life.
> 
> The blow never came.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2014)

Risyth said:


> No love for DBZ-style fights?
> 
> Lol, I get it.



My problem with DBZ fights is that they look awesome, but I can never tell how much damage is being done.  Pummeling a guy's face in with earth shattering, dragging him across the ground so hard pavement chunks go flying and dig a trench through 5 city blocks, slamming him through a series of skyscrapers, embedding him in a mountain, and then collapsing the cliff face on top of him before nuking it into a crater with a hyper beam, ends with two seconds of silence, and then the receiving party breaking out of the rubble and counter attacking.

It looks cool, but the whole point of a fight is to injure the other guy, and if I can't tell when that's happening, I don't know how to score or judge, or when to have a reaction.

The Mirrai Nikki super fight is actually one of my favorite super fights every, because even though people are getting slammed around, it has fluid animation.  AKA they're not little specks of light blurring around the screen.  And two, because each hit and impact is punctuated with pain and injury, and there's a recovery period between each strong blow, with some blows obviously being stronger than others, that lets me empathize with the attacker or defender.  I know when 9th is in trouble, and when she's winning, and when she's suffering, and what she can't afford to get hit by.  (That black sealing ball)

I know you said you get it, but since someone posted that fight, I thought I'd share.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 20, 2014)

So for my sequel book, I'm making these Ed, Edd, 'n Eddy inspired characters and I'm not sure how to approach them to make them lovable before I kill them off and make the readers hate Steven.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

What do you have planned for them so far?


----------



## Malicious Friday (Feb 20, 2014)

They're supposed to be on a mission with Giotto and Kyjal to bring the three main cryptids (Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, and El Chupacabra) to Shangri-La to revive Cryptorium. Steven sent them because they were the lowest of the low, in terms of status, in the Sons of Gaea and because of them being so clumsy and awkward, they'll ruin the mission. Steven only wants to get rid of Kyjal, he gives no fucks about Giotto's well-being. But when they successfully complete the mission without accidentally killing Kyjal in the process, Steven kills them out of anger and gives their bodies to the wyverns.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2014)

Pirates basically pointed out the flaw in these elaborate fight sequences. They're cool to look at, but we're not looking at anything but words on the page. You're going to have a hard time writing these kinds of fights and describing them without them seeming silly and over the top unless you've laid super proper groundwork. 

When Vin in Mistborn jumps a quarter mile across the battlefield and slices a man and his horse in half it's plausible because we've seen how her powers work for two books and even that comes as a one shot and at great, great cost. In writing we can't stake as much on the visual to be cool.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

^That's a big part of it too.  We're not the ideal medium for flashy fights. 

Actually, trying to make a cool wild fight scene would be a fun challenge.  Just to see if we can do it.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> ^That's a big part of it too.  We're not the ideal medium for flashy fights.
> 
> Actually, trying to make a cool wild fight scene would be a fun challenge.  Just to see if we can do it.



There were some long awesome fights in Mistborn, but they're highly specialized and strategic. They're cool for a different reason. I mean my favorite part in the second book is: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



We're told in the first book that their powers to push, pull and sense metals don't work on metals that are inside of a human body. So earrings for instance can't be pulled on. Then in book two the main character fights a guy who seemingly has extra coins to throw that she can't sense or steal off of him. Later when she speaks with him she learns that he keeps a few coins in his mouth so that he can use them when he spits them out, but other Mistborn can't take them. It was an awesome moment only because we're told how something works in the first book, but we don't know how much of an advantage it can be until later.




I think that we could write something pretty cool, but it would have to be not modeled on anything like action movies or anime because those mediums depend on visuals to get you roped in. 

By the way, I rolled through three thousand words the other day. I'm trying to be really serious about writing almost daily and if I can't I try to write more when I can.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2014)

Instead of flashy fights it's better for me at least to create really surreal fights that couldn't easily be done in other mediums.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My problem with DBZ fights is that they look awesome, but I can never tell how much damage is being done.  Pummeling a guy's face in with earth shattering, dragging him across the ground so hard pavement chunks go flying and dig a trench through 5 city blocks, slamming him through a series of skyscrapers, embedding him in a mountain, and then collapsing the cliff face on top of him before nuking it into a crater with a hyper beam, ends with two seconds of silence, and then the receiving party breaking out of the rubble and counter attacking.
> 
> It looks cool, but the whole point of a fight is to injure the other guy, and if I can't tell when that's happening, I don't know how to score or judge, or when to have a reaction.
> 
> ...



The characters are not human. The idea is that the force used to slash a mountain in half can't slash their skin open, so it must be more resilient than a mountain. My characters usually fight by damaging the landscape before their attacks connect, so as to convey how resilient their opponent must be.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Pirates basically pointed out the flaw in these elaborate fight sequences. They're cool to look at, but we're not looking at anything but words on the page. You're going to have a hard time writing these kinds of fights and describing them without them seeming silly and over the top unless you've laid super proper groundwork.
> 
> When Vin in Mistborn jumps a quarter mile across the battlefield and slices a man and his horse in half it's plausible because we've seen how her powers work for two books and even that comes as a one shot and at great, great cost. In writing we can't stake as much on the visual to be cool.



Well, I'm not dealing with humans. As a whole, the battle is just a normal sword or street fight. However, the surroundings are affected by their attacks. If a fighter lands a kick against a wall, it'd do nothing. If they did in my stories, they'd bust the building altogether. When a hit connects, it's the same as normal people fighting, but the same force used to bust a building would only dent someone's nose.

As a whole, I have an epic aerial supermassive MMORPG campaign styled dogfight at night that lasts from 11 PM to early in the morning. As a whole, it is like a normal dogfight too (and I've seen books do them). Just change the fighters to people.


----------



## Risyth (Feb 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> There were some long awesome fights in Mistborn, but they're highly specialized and strategic. They're cool for a different reason. I mean my favorite part in the second book is:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Writings shouldn't try to induce sensory effects on the reader then? It should just be stark and non-immersive? I know that DBZ fights have redundant fighting that can make it dull, but that's because those fights always follow the same formula and power-levels and power-ups aren't interesting to most people, compared to more intricate strategies.

Just my opinion, but every story should try to appeal to as many of the reader's senses as possible, especially in fights. Otherwise they're just reading words: no matter how clever those words may be, they're uninvolving.

Congrats on your 3000, though.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Writings shouldn't try to induce sensory effects on the reader then? It should just be stark and non-immersive? I know that DBZ fights have redundant fighting that can make it dull, but that's because those fights always follow the same formula and power-levels and power-ups aren't interesting to most people, compared to more intricate strategies.



Not what I'm saying. The thing is that when you set out to write something as if it's like an action movie you're going to fail every time. You've got to play to the strengths writing has. In fact, in the case of first person narrative, it wouldn't usually allow for you write sweeping action scenes because your description is based upon the character's perception and it's really hard to see every detail while someone is wailing on you. 

Immerse fights don't have much to do with city wide destruction. A fight between two children can have a huge impact depending on what's at stake and the character's personality and goals.

What I am claiming will be bad form is the idea of these over the top fight sequences because they're not going to read like they would in a movie or TV. Best to keep fights brutal and short and only have them for concrete purposes so that there's something at stake, even if it's just someone learning.  



Risyth said:


> Just my opinion, but every story should try to appeal to as many of the reader's senses as possible, especially in fights. Otherwise they're just reading words: no matter how clever those words may be, they're uninvolving.
> 
> Congrats on your 3000, though.


That's kind of what I'm saying. In these over the top fights the slider for sensual response is pushed all the way to visual. A fight that appeals to the reader's other senses wouldn't look the same way as a fight in animation because animation can pretty much only do sound and sight. 

Thanks.


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 20, 2014)

Got a new horror story in the works, well short story, that'll try to handle humor and horror at the same time. Think I'll begin writing it next week.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not what I'm saying. The thing is that when you set out to write something as if it's like an action movie you're going to fail every time. You've got to play to the strengths writing has. In fact, in the case of first person narrative, it wouldn't usually allow for you write sweeping action scenes because your description is based upon the character's perception and it's really hard to see every detail while someone is wailing on you.
> 
> Immerse fights don't have much to do with city wide destruction. A fight between two children can have a huge impact depending on what's at stake and the character's personality and goals.
> 
> ...



The catch is, fights don't work that way for me.

When I write a fight, I don't just entwine them with other stuff. Fighting as a whole isn't "one-on-one" when I write it. It's more akin to a theater with a campaign being waged on. There's a brief fight between two characters that rages on while other characters fight their own offscreen battles. However, they still butt in and chat casually while hurling attacks at each other. If you take the action off, they could very well be in having a conversation inside a castle's room. 

The engaging part comes after one ends. When there's a victor, said character moves on to the next, which leads to teaming up. Alternatively, they may do so while still engaging their opponent, provided they find an even more troublesome character and the three fighters decide to use a single attack on it, only to go back to pummeling one of them or fleeing to help someone else, whether someone's tailing them or not. As a whole, there's very little room for imagination beyond a Final Fantasy Type 0 styled campaign.

Also, there is purpose to the fights. There's a reason I don't make many small fights and instead make one huge, multichaptered trainwreck. The idea is that rather than "small clues and discoveries", there's one huge, life-changing revelation that shocks everyone silly and leaves them in the open, confused. This leads to a completely unexpected turn of events and makes the story's path go from "stable" to "unpredictable" and characters show and do stuff we would have never expected them to.

The fighting ends, when, due to the situation taking a turn for the worse, and everyone joins forces. However, it's the sense of confusion and everyone striving for the same goal, yet fighting amongst themselves that creates the tension.

The whole "something's at stake" is conveyed by urgency, given that these fights are usually organized by the bad guy with a time limit, but the bad guy will most likely carry out his plans earlier.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> The catch is, fights don't work that way for me.
> 
> When I write a fight, I don't just entwine them with other stuff. Fighting as a whole isn't "one-on-one" when I write it. It's more akin to a theater with a campaign being waged on. There's a brief fight between two characters that rages on while other characters fight their own offscreen battles. However, they still butt in and chat casually while hurling attacks at each other. If you take the action off, they could very well be in having a conversation inside a castle's room.
> 
> ...



I would be interested in looking at one of your fight scenes to get a feel for how it reads, and how you handle them in practice.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 21, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> The catch is, fights don't work that way for me.
> 
> When I write a fight, I don't just entwine them with other stuff. Fighting as a whole isn't "one-on-one" when I write it. It's more akin to a theater with a campaign being waged on. There's a brief fight between two characters that rages on while other characters fight their own offscreen battles. However, they still butt in and chat casually while hurling attacks at each other. If you take the action off, they could very well be in having a conversation inside a castle's room.
> 
> ...



Your characters don't sound like they're anything like people from what you've been saying about them and what they can do, so I guess that's probably why this works for you. They must not get tired, they must not need to eat as regularly humans do or expend the kind of the energy humans do. I mean, if you're playing by a set of rules we don't understand I guess this could make sense. 

This seems like a nightmare on the pacing, though. I mean, my number one fear behind being out of character is pacing being shit. Too fast paced, too slow...story not progressing at all (basically plot momentum coming to a complete stop for too long). 

In fact, some of the biggest issues I've seen in books that would otherwise be readable are a complete understanding of what pacing is (same thing in movies. Everything wrong with the last Superman was pacing and editing).


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 21, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I would be interested in looking at one of your fight scenes to get a feel for how it reads, and how you handle them in practice.



You'd have to read through two or three chapters. I can take out a part of a fighting scene though... I think the introduction or first fight would do.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Your characters don't sound like they're anything like people from what you've been saying about them and what they can do, so I guess that's probably why this works for you. They must not get tired, they must not need to eat as regularly humans do or expend the kind of the energy humans do. I mean, if you're playing by a set of rules we don't understand I guess this could make sense.
> 
> This seems like a nightmare on the pacing, though. I mean, my number one fear behind being out of character is pacing being shit. Too fast paced, too slow...story not progressing at all (basically plot momentum coming to a complete stop for too long).
> 
> In fact, some of the biggest issues I've seen in books that would otherwise be readable are a complete understanding of what pacing is (same thing in movies. Everything wrong with the last Superman was pacing and editing).



Indeed (and I have stated that a lot of times already). We're dealing with aliens. Wikipedia renders them as Aryan Aliens (or Nordic Aliens), but they were mistaken through history for divinities due to their immense power, wealth, magical powers, technology, beauty, culture and even influence. They hail from a dimension known as Sylvania, which is different from ours (for one, there are no planets, the whole dimension is inhabitable land and vast lakes).

Expect my stuff in the morning.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> You'd have to read through two or three chapters. I can take out a part of a fighting scene though... I think the introduction or first fight would do.



Whatever you feel like sharing, that's at least slightly edited for typos, I'm cool with.  Just enough to get the idea.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not what I'm saying. The thing is that when you set out to write something as if it's like an action movie you're going to fail every time. You've got to play to the strengths writing has. In fact, in the case of first person narrative, it wouldn't usually allow for you write sweeping action scenes because your description is based upon the character's perception and it's really hard to see every detail while someone is wailing on you.
> 
> Immerse fights don't have much to do with city wide destruction. A fight between two children can have a huge impact depending on what's at stake and the character's personality and goals.
> 
> ...



Yeah, all of my fights serve some purpose, or teach some lesson, or focus on some aspect of the universe or magic system I want to show.

Even my big book of action scenes has a focal point of each fight, and something to focus on, and talk about, that links back to something mentioned earlier.  Usually something clever, or tactical.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 21, 2014)

Battle excerpt time (Warning: This is still in rough draft stage)


*Spoiler*: __ 




I could help but notice that the morning was starting to approach.


For some odd reason… it felt… good, after all, after fighting EIGHT opponents, a bit of peace near the Olympus dam felt strangely rewarding, and the sun hitting my skin was a welcomed ministration from the surroundings after having spent 5 hours in the chilly air of the nocturnal skies. After all, it was no secret I liked the sun… a lot.


At least, soon, my knight would be back! I, alongside Luna, would make sure to give her a piece of our minds, she owed a LOT to me… Plus, there was something important I needed to say and I couldn’t just let her go off like that.


I won’t let her die, I… need… her… I need…


_“You should know better than to bask in the afterglow of victory”_
_
_
_Huh?_


Dammit!


Before anything could happen, I shifted to the my left and then high into the air in the blink of an eye. In the rush, I saw how a large rose colored beam shot straight into where I was standing, hitting the dam’s main watchtower and grounding it to dust. So, who was the attack-  …Her… AGAIN?! But wait… _Was she really this powerful? I knew she was strong before, but this power is…_
_
_
_“Don’t get lost in thought, Aston Gryffynn”_
_
_
_Oh damn!!!_
_
_
Once more, I shifted, this time to my right and below, only to notice that she had set five homing, energy projectiles after me, prompting my to cast five small energy chords with my mind and managing to get away just in time as they collided and exploded, at least they weren’t as strong as that huge cannon, but still... _So she did get to push me into the defensive, right? _Well, so much for not getting a good scare in the last 24 hours. However…


_I was getting freaking tired of this whole cat and mouse thing!_
_
_
I stood my ground firmly this time, though standing your ground would imply I was down there, rather than 500 meters in the air… but that did not seem to stop me in the least — I am done running away you know? — I told the auburn haired, Asian woman in white, who, for some reason had decided I was unworthy of living. _At least, I’d get to see her scared face, and get back at her._ Just the thought of that woman scared to death, bruised and battered, seemed to make my heart jump from joy. _Bonus points if she knows something about Lily…_
_
_
As she took to the skies to look at me, I couldn’t help but smirk at her arrogance. — Perfect, I’ll beat ya before sunrise! — Readying my lance near my right side and getting it ready for ranged combat, I decided to try something else, if anything to intimidate her. — You aren’t the only one who knows bombardment spells you know, whitey? — Apparently, this seemed to offend her which went just nicely with my plan, as her expression turned sour and her dark blue eyes focused on me, and she tightened the grip on her weapon, which, seemed like a really weird and futuristic stave with a liquid core of sorts. _Good._ She can be thrown off with just words. It seems this’ll be much faster than I thought.


She tilted her head to the side as magic circles expanded on her and her expression changed into one of mild amusement — I’ve had people calling me worse names, so why would I be offended by that? — She began, putting her left hand over her mouth as she started giggling, — You do know, that wasn’t my strongest attack, but I could gladly try it now if you’re that curious...


— Then forgive me for going all out on you so suddenly, but I’m not into loading my attacks — I smiled dryly. It did damn well for being such a bad lie, but it’s not like I was gonna let that attack go off at all, even I was well aware that I couldn’t just defeat her with firepower. So I needed to outspeed and outsmart her.


_Given who I am, that one won’t be much of a problem._


Then, as her mouth started moving to cast the spell, which seemed to be a gigantic beam that would have probably changed the landscape had it fired, I shifted over to her left side, which, given her surprised face, once more threw her off. _What a letdown!_


Before she could even cancel her first spell to cast another, I grabbed her face with my open left hand before accelerating at full flight speed and flying an arch downwards, jettisoning ourselves into the Olympian escarpment as I pushed her face against the thick stone walls of the mountain, thrusting her along and watching how the rock was pulverized under me as I skirted her along the mountain, thrashing rock with her head face first before lifting away, delivering an swift kick on her back and digging my high heels just deep enough into her spinal chord to see blood bubbling out and then using that as a support for a powerful, blow and jump that blasted the small hill in which we had ended up and materializing my lance, with the spell I had prepared good to go. 


_So go mind your own bloody shit already, will ya, hag?_
_
_
If I was right, she wouldn’t be able to see anything, the dirt cloud provided just enough cover for me to lift and ascend high to bombard the escarpment, and just enough time to target.


But for this sort of power, targeting wasn’t really a NEED at all.


As the dust settled, she looked up to look at me hovering about 800 meters above her. Now, finally, I could see the scared face I had wanted to coax out of her so badly, and her hands were trembling. Her ponytailed hair was now untied, draped over her shoulders, and that white gown of hers was ripped from top to bottom, revealing a black bodysuit below. She looked rather ‘cute’ for being in her early twenties.


—Sorry, ms. Military officer, but I’ve got more reasons than just myself for keeping on living.


— You really are going to date a criminal like her?!


— Yes.


Only two words left my mouth in the wake of that exchange.


— Mirage Lancer.


A purple haze briefly covered my vision.


After wards, the mountain no longer existed, for in it’s place now was a lake. Water from the nearby glaciers was starting to fill the newly formed basin, and, close to the shore was the bloodied body of a fallen devil. Beside her, her now broken stave, whose core no longer seemed to glow like it had every time she cast an spell. At least, that’s one problem off my heels for the time being… even if it means her friends come after my ass, which is.


_“Plasma…”_
_
_
_Really damn likely to happen! _


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 22, 2014)

I read the whole fight a while back and have been turning it over in my head for a while now trying to figure out what to say about it. There's a lot of showing instead of telling. I know every writer hates to hear that phrase, but I have something to back it up. 



I posted the text of it below. 



> In six seconds, you?ll hate me.
> 
> But in six months, you?ll be a better writer.
> 
> ...



Granted you can find places where I don't heed these words in my own writing, but at the same time if you compared me a year or so ago to me now it would be a completely different thing. 

Also the way you do quotation is jarring and confusing. It took me several moments to realize that what I was reading was someone talking to someone else. 

The fight seems to miss the mark some in other ways. It's not that we don't know what's at stake or what's going on, but it's more like we have concepts that seem goofy when not put in a visual medium. The idea that someone could be dragged through concrete in that way is just hard to take seriously. 

I don't have any fights from recently to post, but I guess I could dig way back into the novel and find something. I'll try to get something fight-y together.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 22, 2014)

Of course, action sequences. I wrote this a while ago to practice my first person with Lewis: 



> Holly is bent down inspecting the tattered tarps. Wind pushes her hair into her face and she fights at it with one hand as she mutters something, I can only tell she’s talking from the cadence of the steam on her breath. I light a cigarette as she gets to her feet. “You know your house seems at least semi-permanent. It’s been here a while,” she says.
> 
> “This spot interests me, but it is not uncommon that I should relocate when the currents of people lose their hold over me,” he says.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 22, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I read the whole fight a while back and have been turning it over in my head for a while now trying to figure out what to say about it. There's a lot of showing instead of telling. I know every writer hates to hear that phrase, but I have something to back it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ohohohoho! I don't feel bad about it, I really could use some of that infodump of yours!

Mind you, I did say this scene was a draft, and I have not even begun editing much of it. It'd also make more sense if I had cleared how things go.

Italic : Character thinking
?: Actual dialogue
"" Italic: Unexpected info (I dropped this one for most of the novel already)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 22, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Ohohohoho! I don't feel bad about it, I really could use some of that infodump of yours!
> 
> Mind you, I did say this scene was a draft, and I have not even begun editing much of it. It'd also make more sense if I had cleared how things go.
> 
> ...



You're in first person so everything outside of quotation is character thinking. And what do you mean by "unexpected info". That one has me kind of confused.


----------



## Nordstrom (Feb 22, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You're in first person so everything outside of quotation is character thinking. And what do you mean by "unexpected info". That one has me kind of confused.



It was a concept that was initially supposed to provide "immersing" experience by working as an "enhanced audio" and it would indicate that the character was listening to something a normal human could not hear or understand, like _birdsong_, which remains in the story and stuff said far away. It was not to be used for eavesdropping or the like (unless the effect was used). As a whole, it was thrashed over simply deciding to describe when the effect was in use.

Also, while everything not dialogue is character thinking, this was supposed to highlight something the person was saying verbatim mentally, rather than how things seem through the character.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2014)

> Holly steps out of one of car in his only clear line of approach. He reaches for her, but she deflects his arm with a palm thrust and slips her leg around his. He loses balance and she shoulder checks him onto his back.
> 
> In the struggle he manages to get hold of a shiv at his waist and swipe at her. There’s a splash of blood from her arm as I arrive. “You okay?”
> 
> She nods holding the wound, “Yeah…” the spaces between her fingers are tinted with blood.



This is a very easy to imagine and exciting fight scene.  I like how you withheld information on her being stabbed, so things weren't a blow by blow, but rather, a scene that went quickly, with missed details that later came to light.  

Stopping the movement to describe the shiv that was actually a folded can lid, for example, would have totally broken the pacing and excitement.  But in this way we get to kind of replay the fight in our head with the new information and go, "Ah, that's why she palm thrusted his hand away.  But it didn't quite work because she still got cut.  Also she did that in 200 dollar heels.  She's gots skillz."

If I can find one of my fight scenes, I'll share it with the class.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 22, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> It was a concept that was initially supposed to provide "immersing" experience by working as an "enhanced audio" and it would indicate that the character was listening to something a normal human could not hear or understand, like _birdsong_, which remains in the story and stuff said far away. It was not to be used for eavesdropping or the like (unless the effect was used). As a whole, it was thrashed over simply deciding to describe when the effect was in use.
> 
> Also, while everything not dialogue is character thinking, this was supposed to highlight something the person was saying verbatim mentally, rather than how things seem through the character.



I guess that makes sense in terms of them saying something mentally just like that. I see what you mean. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> This is a very easy to imagine and exciting fight scene.  I like how you withheld information on her being stabbed, so things weren't a blow by blow, but rather, a scene that went quickly, with missed details that later came to light.
> 
> Stopping the movement to describe the shiv that was actually a folded can lid, for example, would have totally broken the pacing and excitement.  But in this way we get to kind of replay the fight in our head with the new information and go, "Ah, that's why she palm thrusted his hand away.  But it didn't quite work because she still got cut.  Also she did that in 200 dollar heels.  She's gots skillz."
> 
> If I can find one of my fight scenes, I'll share it with the class.



 thanks. Holly has and angel's balance and she's skilled in wing chun so her fights are all about deflecting and fast blows. There was a clunkier fight I almost posted where she fights a possessed woman who has some kitchen knives. The whole fight is her using a cutting board to parry attacks and eventually break the knife and knock the woman off balance. 

I try to keep things really close to the character's skill level. Like one of the girls I'm writing now knows most of her athletic stuff from being a cheerleader, so her movements and skills will reflect that.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Battle excerpt time (Warning: This is still in rough draft stage)
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Having read it, and bearing in mind that it's a draft, it feels very disjointed and awkward.  Things that should be fast aren't, and details that are worth noting either don't feel like it's something the character should pay attention to, or they're thrown in too briefly.  Like the staff glowing with each spell was really cool, but it's just kind of tossed out there without having a good place to present it, while her battle damage wasn't something I thought the guy should be focusing on when he's charging his super spell, if he could even notice such details through the smoke cloud.  I don't think he should, seeing as how he's using it to obscure his details from her, and if it settles enough for him to see, and his spell takes that long to charge, I feel like she could have tried to move.  The lady's performance felt pathetic, overall, and she got tricked by incredibly juvenile words.  



> Before she could even cancel her first spell to cast another, I grabbed her face with my open left hand before accelerating at full flight speed and flying an arch downwards, jettisoning ourselves into the Olympian escarpment as I pushed her face against the thick stone walls of the mountain, thrusting her along and watching how the rock was pulverized under me as I skirted her along the mountain, thrashing rock with her head face first before lifting away, delivering an swift kick on her back and digging my high heels just deep enough into her spinal chord to see blood bubbling out and then using that as a support for a powerful, blow and jump that blasted the small hill in which we had ended up and materializing my lance, with the spell I had prepared good to go.



This part tries to be really intricate, but it comes off as too long.  Too much.  It suffers similar to the quick clunky scene I wrote where essentially the same battle ending happened, but obviously yours is more refined.  Even still, it's very telly, and not showy.  First person grants you the power to actually kind of make this kind of thing work, if you describe what the character feels as he's running her face through the pavement.  

EX: _I slammed her face into the pavement, hard enough to leave a crater, but I wasn't done.  I started running.  Dragging her, holding her face down even as bit of dirt, then stones, and finally whole chunks of debris flew past me, and caused me to wince as they winged my face, feeling each bump and divet her face came across like a kid being drug across the dirt on a piece of cardboard._

Well, the way I described it was very brutal and still meh, but I hope it at least gives you some ideas on how you can play to perspective and approach the reader on more senses than what you can on television.

Oddly enough, the beginning suffers from the opposite problem.  It has a lot of actions and half thoughts that I don't understand.  I don't really understand why the person jumps into the air, or what's going on, and I can't follow their train of thought.  The character can, because he's taking in visual and sensory information, and you can, because you know what he's responding to, but I'm left out of the loop.

Anyway, thank you for sharing it, and it was an interesting approach.  I did enjoy reading it, even though it took me awhile to understand your interesting quotation system.  I hope I didn't sound too critical.  It is a first draft, and it takes me about 5 drafts to pull out a fight scene I actually feel comfortable with.  Including pulling back, sitting on it, re-reading, getting input, remaking it, ect ect,and mine are typically a whole lot shorter and simpler than what you've done.  So, that's my perspective.  I hope it helps.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 22, 2014)

Pirate is pretty much spot on with the issue I was having. I think I was too sleepy to put it into words. First person is a great vehicle for fights like this, but you have to kind of play to the strengths of first person. There is so much you can do with it in terms of characters and their reaction to things. 

Looking back at my own stuff from about six years ago I can see how I really need to change some of this. Some of it, like the battle with Holly and Betty worked. Some of it didn't work as well. There is a lot to be cautious of with these kinds of things. I would strongly suggest reading at least the first book of the Mistborn trilogy. It shows how to set something like this up and then how to execute fights using the powers that you demonstrate. 

Mistborn will make you jealous of the magic system.


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## tari101190 (Feb 22, 2014)

Finished my third act! Now onto the short epilogue, which I haven't really planned well.

This is still just my rough 1st draft after loads of plotting outlining earlier.

Arranging for a 'big' writer to look over my stuff. I've met him before and have him on facebook. I want a finished draft for him to look at.

I'm happy with it for the most part, but need to polish things up and re do stuff. Obviously it will change a lot more in future drafts.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 22, 2014)

That's pretty cool man. Do you actually track your word count? I found that motivated me weirdly.


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## tari101190 (Feb 23, 2014)

No I wasn't worried about word count for now.

I just wanted to make sure I wrote out the entire story first. 

"The first draft is just telling the story to yourself."

After that when I polish it up and alter stuff for subsequent drafts, I may keep a closer eye on word count.

But word count doesn't motivate me. I knew where the story was going, I just had to make sure I wrote it down. My motivation was to finish.

But still need to do the epilogue. Hopefully will finish it before monday.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 23, 2014)

I guess for me just seeing the progress helped me a lot in the long run. I mean I was sitting there just going "I can't do this today" most of the time before. I think also being on medication for depression hurt me more than it helped.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 23, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> Finished my third act! Now onto the short epilogue, which I haven't really planned well.
> 
> This is still just my rough 1st draft after loads of plotting outlining earlier.
> 
> ...



Can we read it. I'm a sucker for this curiosity sort of stuff.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That's pretty cool man. Do you actually track your word count? I found that motivated me weirdly.



Which reminds me of something. Many people say they write with music because it inspires them, and I initially did so as well, but my pacing suffered. However, I began writing much better when I used a metronome (an actual metronome). Am I the only one who does this?



tari101190 said:


> No I wasn't worried about word count for now.
> 
> I just wanted to make sure I wrote out the entire story first.
> 
> ...



Don't count the words. Write as much as you like until you feel satisfied with yourself. If it's too long, you can just split it into two books.

My word count clocks at 233,458 (I have the whole thing on word), but each arc (or books) reaches only 98,000 or so words and most of this stuff is from 2008 or earlier. Only the first 10 chapters of the first, 6 of the second, and 2 of the third have made it to overwriting and are up to date.

Ergo, so take your time and fill the draft first. Word count is part of the editing process instead.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 23, 2014)

I don't think I've ever even seen a real metrenome. I only learned the word originally because of the Pokemon attack. 

So there's this thing where I think I am bad at tender scenes and I'm trying, dammit. I just did one with two of my characters that I am sure I will end up having to edit super hard.



> The bathroom is still steamy and hot and everything feels slick against my skin. There’s enough room along the side of the tub for both of us with my legs draped out over his lap. He lathers the cream up from my ankle and works his way higher slowly. It’s always quiet when we do this—the soft swish of the water and the subtle sound of the blade are the only real sounds other than our breathing.
> 
> Daunte’s dad was adamant that he learn to shave with a straight razor. He gave some speech about being in a manly state of zen and learning patience and control. Whatever he said worked on Daunte. He only nicked himself twice and can remember. When I asked him to try it on my legs he was confident and careful. Never cut me and my legs are smoother than they would ever get with the cheap disposable blade razors I use.
> 
> ...



Whoop there it is.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 26, 2014)

New topic! 

What inspired you to be a writer?


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## Nordstrom (Feb 26, 2014)

Twilight being horrible? 

For real, mostly, my fantastic wish to change the world and turn it on it's head, or to at least go to another one where this could be done...

As a whole, to be honest, I really hate this world and would cross my fingers to see to it's destruction or radical change. I wish for such a thing almost every night. As a whole, the idea that the world could be "purged" and "reborn" is what inspired me to be a writer. That's why I admire communists and Stalin's purges (until they went way out of hand and the innocent were hurt). I believe in freedom, but some people nowadays don't, and I wish for them to vanish.

So yeah, rather unusual, but the world I write on (just like books within the same setting) is a world where 40% of the world population died in an instant and Latin America and parts of Asia were submerged under the seas... Think of Evangelion's 2nd impact... but as if it were a good thing.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 26, 2014)

So, Sliepnyr, you're saying you're writing to change the world through your books?


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## Nordstrom (Feb 26, 2014)

Actually, yeah... but it's more of a gift to the hopeless and those in despair. A "portal" into another world of sorts...

You may have heard of "friendly world syndrome" in which it seems everyone is living a better life than you. Also, the "mean world syndrome" where everything seems more dangerous than it is... my books are meant to provide a "vicarious living" or "self insert" of the reader into a "modded world" where the reader places him or herself on the shoes of the main character and live a far better life through the character's eyes. In order to completely do away with the fear of rejection of this world, I completely purged the world of the books (our world, but an alternate history where 2012 happened) of a large part of the population. All the people that ostracize others and the hypocrites were done away during the purge... The government of the new world, with under-the-table support from an interdimensional government, so as to compensate those affected by their neglect, built a futuristic new haven... with advanced cities, very short work weeks, long vacations, any elimination of judgment outside of criminals and as a whole... life is much better and rich now.

For one, gender double standards no longer exist. People work and go to school 3 days per week. Higher education has been phased out globally in favor of apprenticeships. The IAE (successor to the UN) wields far more power than they have ever wielded, the whole planet's demilitarized, and they manage a completely automated military. Oppressive traditions have been done away with and there's no more poverty.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 26, 2014)

I'm actually trying to do the same thing in mine, but I'm moreso trying to change the way society and the government (mainly America's) is rather how the entire world works as a whole. I have ten laws (the Ten Laws thing is based off the Ten Commandments, but not the rules themselves) that what I think are basically perfect (don't judge me) because everyone gets something out of everything they do and there are very little ways to go astray in the world.

And I also try to tell other people about it, but the people I tell are so stuck in how everyone else thinks because they don't want to leave their box and say I'm stupid or something. (  -___-) So fuck them...

Back on topic, yeah. I'm with you on changing the world through our books.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 26, 2014)

As a whole, these laws are not needed neither on the World nor on the other worlds. People are naturally nice to each other, those that aren't usually get help with what's making them that way. Earth was a unique case of people choosing to be hypocritical because they believed in entitlement to something (hierarchy became the latest fad). However, nowadays, most of the hypocrites are dead. Those who aren't are helped to overcome what is causing the problem.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 26, 2014)

The thing about my books, is that we'll always need some type of order to keep the chaos away. The laws are there so everyone can be kept under control. Everyone has a little bit of evil inside them and my laws are there to kept the evil in check because of the consequences of breaking said laws.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 26, 2014)

No. There are still laws, but they're your normal, run-of-the-mill laws. They just became more specific and powerful.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 26, 2014)

Explain, please.


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## Nordstrom (Feb 26, 2014)

A list of laws that formerly protected the oppressors were struck down. It's too lengthy for me to actually number them, and new laws have come to protect the interests of those that have been hurt.

All you have to know is that they're better off now.


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## Krory (Feb 26, 2014)

Playing JRPGs like Breath of Fire and watching anime as a child, I grew an appreciation for character stories moreso than actual stories. Even at that age my mind always kind of built upon what _wasn't_ there, as I tend to do now (which is why I gravitate so much towards very minor characters in the media I enjoy - the potential). I became more interested in creating characters above all. This is kind of how I operate now in what I play or watch or read - I don't care if the base story is derivative or stereotypical or generic, I'm more interested in portrayal of characters (not that my standards of such are anything respectable or admirable) and their designs.

That's all I got.

I don't even know what I'm saying.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 26, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> New topic!
> 
> What inspired you to be a writer?



I always just kind of liked making up telling stories, and people seemed to enjoy them.

Some of my stuff is based on what I'd like to see, and what I don't see enough of.  So it's basically me trying to make the stories I always wanted to hear.  Or promising starts and novel ideas I see other people have, and then fail to capitalize on as they let themselves slip into comfortable cliches and popular trends.  

I'm also like Krory, in many regards.



> This is kind of how I operate now in what I play or watch or read - I don't care if the base story is derivative or stereotypical or generic, I'm more interested in portrayal of characters (not that my standards of such are anything respectable or admirable) and their designs.



And the RPG bit.  Off-topic, I don't like the term JRPG.  I find it a useless distinction, as I would find calling a book a Canadian Authored Mystery Novel, and filing it in a separate shelf from Russian Authored Mystery Novels.


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## Krory (Feb 26, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> And the RPG bit.  Off-topic, I don't like the term JRPG.  I find it a useless distinction, as I would find calling a book a Canadian Authored Mystery Novel, and filing it in a separate shelf from Russian Authored Mystery Novels.



I think "horror" and "thriller" is a useless distinction and don't like it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2014)

krory said:


> I think "horror" and "thriller" is a useless distinction and don't like it.



Yeah that's also kind of dumb.

Wasn't _Thriller_ a horror movie anyway?


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 27, 2014)

Why do you say that? 

Horrors are scary and thrillers are exciting.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 27, 2014)

Thrilling seems like something you can tack on as an adjective to any genre.

A thrilling adventure.  A thrilling mystery.  A thrilling drama.  A thrilling fantasy.  A thrilling horror.  A thrilling Western.  A thrilling romance.  A thrilling folk pop sensation.  All of which are bound to leave you on the edge of your seat.

It seems a little broad to be its own genre.


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## Malicious Friday (Feb 27, 2014)

Depending on what you like, yes, but I see what you mean.


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## Krory (Feb 27, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Why do you say that?
> 
> Horrors are scary and thrillers are exciting.



It was sarcasm from me. :33


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 28, 2014)

Horror and thriller are two totally different words that don't even mean close to the same thing. They have pretty much the same meaning when it comes to genre and the distinction is pretty large. 

I'm not even sure how someone could claim their the same thing. I mean Thriller is like the Jason Borne series. Or when someone says Political Thriller they don't mean something with a clown that's also President murdering kids. 

Horror is like IT by Stephen King or the original Dracula book or anything meant to be fear inducing, shocking, it might include gore or play off of cultural tendencies toward fear. 

The two things aren't even meant for the same audience.


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## Eternity (Feb 28, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Horror and thriller are two totally different words that don't even mean close to the same thing. They have pretty much the same meaning when it comes to genre and the distinction is pretty large.
> 
> I'm not even sure how someone could claim their the same thing. I mean Thriller is like the Jason Borne series. Or when someone says Political Thriller they don't mean something with a clown that's also President murdering kids.
> 
> ...




Personally, I love thrillers, but I don't really care for horror. I did like the original dracula though, wierdly enough.

And I agree with your view on these two genres. Thriller is supposed to keep you on edge. Good thrillers often have romance, drama and other sub-genres, while horror more often than not only revolves around scaring the living shit out of you.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 28, 2014)

All I wrote used to turn into horror eventually. I miss those days. My writing feels less meaty nowadays.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 1, 2014)

Just posted part of my opening on Something Awful and got some good reviews. I'm pretty fucking stoked. Those guys are usually fucking hard asses. One of them said he hates present tense and didn't even notice I was writing in it.


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## Eternity (Mar 1, 2014)

Well, writing in present tense is pretty damn hard to do well. So easy to mix those tenses.  What kind of story are you writing in present tense anyway? Surprises and action scenes can be done quite well with present tense. 

Oh, btw, started writing again. My mind have been elsewhere for a while, but I a determined to get some words down. Working title is "Once and Forever". No idea what it is going to be yet, only that it is set in my fantasy world Asoria, and that the first chapter's working title is "Mistletoe".


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 1, 2014)

This is the same story I posted in a thread here not too long ago. Present tense is the only way it seems right.


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## Eternity (Mar 1, 2014)

What page? 



Malicious Friday said:


> New topic!
> 
> What inspired you to be a writer?



Ah, I honestly have no idea. I have always, for as long as I can remember, loved to think out everything about just about anything. How things would work if things where different in a spesific way, creating landscapes in my head, etc, etc..

I think I am a creator, as opposed to just a writer, but I suck massivly at drawing and playing any instrument, so I guess writing is the only way I know how to make things.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 1, 2014)

I just fell into writing stories. When I was small I wrote short stories and sold them for a nickel.


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## Bluebeard (Mar 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> New topic!
> 
> What inspired you to be a writer?



Man, I thought long and hard about this question for like a week. When I couldn't come up with a satisfying answer it started to worry me. 

Then today I was browsing TV and Star Wars Episode IV A New Hope was on. Then I remembered why I always wanted to be an author. Just seeing the amazing world George Lucas had created inspired me. I remember when I was a kid and I started to try and create my own worlds, stories and stuff that I could play in. So basically, like a lot of you guys, I just like to create stuff whether it’s worlds or just people in general.

You also have to love how stories can elicit emotion in a person, whether it's horror, laughter, or even awe.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 1, 2014)

Eternity said:


> I suck massivly at drawing and playing any instrument, so I guess writing is the only way I know how to make things.



I can do both 



Lord Yu said:


> All I wrote used to turn into horror eventually. I miss those days. My writing feels less meaty nowadays.



I wrote horror in the past. I fucking love horror, but it seems I lost my touch for it lately. Like, I wanted to put the horror factor in my books but as I continued developing them, I lost it all. I can't even write a good short horror story anymore...


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## Eternity (Mar 2, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I can do both



Yeah, yeah, yeah..


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## Lord Yu (Mar 2, 2014)

I can play the flute and create soundscapes on a keyboard. But I'm much better at writing.


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## Eternity (Mar 2, 2014)

Could you multi-talents just....bleh!


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 2, 2014)

You're just jealous


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## Eternity (Mar 2, 2014)

You think, genius?


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## Cjones (Mar 5, 2014)

Anyone here read/hear of the guide ‘Writing with Stardust’? I was told it's a pretty decent guide on descriptive writing.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 5, 2014)

Uummm...No... but... I might look it up.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2014)

This is the first I've heard about it.

The only writing resource I really use is _Writer's Ink_.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 5, 2014)

The books not on Kindle and it appears to be a text book because of the fact that there's a spelling guide with it. I can't be bothered with paper books. So primitive. I have to wait for them or go outside to get them! 

I have a whole shit ton of books on writing. I have Elements of Style, a bunch of those Writer's Digest books like "Characters and Viewpoint" and "Beginnings, Middles and Ends". I also have Stephen King's On Writing which was amazing and I have both a print copy and Kindle copy of "Joy of Writing Sex". 

In total I would say I probably have 20+ books on writing.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 5, 2014)

If you could pick a theme song for your book(s) what would it be?

Still Waiting by Sum 41 is the theme song for my first two books.  
The lyrics fit almost perfectly.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> This is the first I've heard about it.
> 
> The only writing resource I really use is _Writer's Ink_.



I use "thewritelife.com" as my writing resource.



Malicious Friday said:


> If you could pick a theme song for your book(s) what would it be?
> 
> Still Waiting by Sum 41 is the theme song for my first two books.
> The lyrics fit almost perfectly.



Depends, there are three songs that I picture playing. Near the beginning, when we're treated to an omniscient, fast forwarded _in media res_ overview of the setting and some "scenes" (this is one of the stuff that I spent the most time on), I picture FFXIII's Prelude playing. It has that slightly futuristic, totalitarian feel that I feel fits the city best.












There's also an adventure scene in the woods where the main character goes to explore and sees the various characters display their powers for him since he's still a human, they take him flying and throw him in the air... he gets to do flips around, free fall from the sky, stand in a magic circle, and even ride a gryphon, and this would play, given it's in the morning in woods near the city... 












Bonus points for having been friends with the composer before he rose to fame.

Also, this score would play (in my head) when the MC finally obtains his powers and flash freezes a mountain range with a blizzard. It just clicks so much with him... after all, the MC is even supposed to speak different languages!

Disney thought along the same lines... But I had no idea how to portray the scene as a whole in my head until I saw it.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC83NA5tAGE[/YOUTUBE]


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## Eternity (Mar 6, 2014)

That muli-langual let it go gave me serious chills.

Not sure what my theme song would be yet though. Haven't really gotten that far yet.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I use "thewritelife.com" as my writing resource.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bookmarked.  

You know the composer of the second song?



Malicious Friday said:


> If you could pick a theme song for your book(s) what would it be?
> 
> Still Waiting by Sum 41 is the theme song for my first two books.
> The lyrics fit almost perfectly.



I listened to this song, and I thought that if one of my books were adapted into an anime, it would fit.  I don't know why my book would ever be an anime, as it's not what I'm aiming for, but it would work with the rock and dark coloring, and focus on clocks and gears, and the bittersweet non-romantic love in a sort of messed up but fantastical world.  

[YOUTUBE]n_l-oq8UU44[/YOUTUBE]

It'd probably be a 12 episode one that gets dropped after one season, and the studio would turn into a harem and flanderizes all my characters in the last three episodes, where he becomes BFF's with his enemy that's turned into a cliche rival when it's warped into Magical Highschool.  With that one filler episode where all my female characters go on a trip to eat crepes and try on clothes, and talk about love and relationships at a cake shop.  After which they'd visit the newly opened hot spring that was conveniently found to exist in geographically impossible area, where they'd take baths and compare cleavage and talk about how they wished heir breasts were bigger as they butchered their simple English and European names.  I'm 100% sure that would happen.  Yeah. It would still be listed as a claim to fame about my book though, when Wikipedia says, "It even spawned a 12 episode anime that aired on Koji t.v., produced by Zexcs during the Kojianimation Sentai Block," though it would never get dubbed or released in America due to poor sales projection, so everyone would just wind up watching it subbed online by groups who only picked it up because it's a summer release, and they don't have anything better to do.  Hopefully a good studio might pick it up and produce direct to dvd OVAs that are shorter, but more faithful adaptations to be included with collectors sets for those who pre-order the complete 120$ collector's edition boxed set of the trilogy.  

Man, I need to pick a new song.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 6, 2014)

If my books were ever selected be be turned into something, I would really rather it be like an anime. I can't see it being turned into a movie as to there is a whole bunch of stuff that is important that the movie would skip over. But if it were turned into a movie, I would definitely want it be turned into animation, anime style.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Bookmarked.
> 
> You know the composer of the second song?
> 
> ...



The composer is "Denny Schneidemesser". He used to have a dA page but I don't know if he was among the 2008-2011 exodus of people that left like I was.

Also, while mine would probably fare nicely as a movie, it'd definitely be better as an anime or a game by Squeenix or NamcoBandai. As a whole, a 12 episode anime wouldn't cut it. The thing is a long runner not unlike Harry Potter or franchises like Bleach, so it'd need much more than that (it's at least as inflated as Sailor Moon). If it were a movie, I'd want Square to use the same technology they use in FFXV to give the actors impossibly beautiful appearances. It's better to cover the imperfections with CGI than make-up, given most of the time, make-up looks creepy. If it was a game by them, the same, if it was by NamcoBandai, I'd want a Tales style game, and if it was an anime...

It's either 7Arcs, Pierrot or Madhouse. If IG or Ufotable touch it, I'm gonna set their HQ on fire.



Malicious Friday said:


> If my books were ever selected be be turned into something, I would really rather it be like an anime. I can't see it being turned into a movie as to there is a whole bunch of stuff that is important that the movie would skip over. But if it were turned into a movie, I would definitely want it be turned into animation, anime style.



Since I also portrayed my characters realistically, a movie would be possible... But with extensive CGI support for the live action, not unlike Pacific Rim or Elysium. If anything, I'd want Neill Blomkamp as an stage designer to design the city after having filmed Elysium, whereas I'd ask Guillermo del Toro for the battles... Also, Tetsuya Nomura and Motomu Toriyama overseeing the character's physical appearance and CGI makeup... I'd have Roen hired again for the wardrobe and have Kosuke Fujishima as character illustrator.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 6, 2014)

Finding out that Sanderson's works take place in the same world has inspired me to go through with the plans I had to do that to my stuff. I'm writing the world I'm in as a multi-verse with a few characters able to hop from world to world and fully aware of the fact that this is what it is.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 6, 2014)

Since "Interdimensional travel" is one of the main things about my stories, it's not an option, but a _need_ for me to write in a multiverse.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Since "Interdimensional travel" is one of the main things about my stories, it's not an option, but a _need_ for me to write in a multiverse.



There will be very little interdimensional travel, but it will be more like one character in particular appearing in all of the stories and it being obviously the same person (Angel of Death). One of the worlds will be this one, the real world, and I am actually debating having her break the fourth wall in narration if she ever gets anything first person to go with.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 6, 2014)

I have everything set in one big timeline starting from the beginning of the universe to the year 7000 (no, it's not futuristic. We've gone back to Renaissance times) to XXXX (that's where the final fight will be held).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 6, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I have everything set in one big timeline starting from the 1800's to the year 7000 (no, it's not futuristic. We've gone back to Renaissance times) to XXXX (that's where the final fight will be held).



I'm dealing with three or four realities that are linked through Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. And there's only one God, one set of Angels and Demons and one set of Horsemen, of which Death is one. 

That looks like the route I'm going now. One of the worlds is the real world, another is the world where all Angels and Demons are known about. I haven't gotten the other two down yet.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 7, 2014)

Are you going to anthropomorphise the Seven Sins and the Seven Virtues?


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## Nordstrom (Mar 7, 2014)

As a whole, I have a multiverse with different characters and stories, and this characters may or may not meet each other... However, the main character of the main story is also a character I use for fanfiction and the like, as a whole.

It could be said to be timelines... The "Unified Timeline" of the franchise, the "Core Timeline" of fanfictions and the "Fate" timeline of a slated fanfic that will start the Core Timeline.

As a whole, Fate timeline is a Nasuverse fanfic, that connects to the Massively multiplayer crossover "Core Timeline" and then, there's the detached "Unified Timeline" which is for my original works. All three have different iterations of the same character as the main lead.

The original story (Unified Timeline) begins in October 17, 2017 AGC (After Grand Catastrophe, since 2012 brought upon a solar flare that started a 4 year World War and led to newly formed Antarctic Nations ending the war as they rose to become the world's superpowers in a new multipolar world.

I won't really put an end date, given that I plan to make the story a long running "you decide what's next" thing, but there'll be a "final battle" and a "final fate of the multiverse" which winds up with a "happy ever after"... But since that trumps the possibility of keeping the franchise going, I'll simply mention it, rather than have it happen... Which would happen in about 767 years...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 7, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Are you going to anthropomorphise the Seven Sins and the Seven Virtues?



I really want to avoid that at all costs because I hate how I have seen it done and don't think it's a very interesting concept. Most of the stuff I use comes directly from a holy book, anyway. 

The seven deadly sins are Catholic theology and don't really fit well into the world I've built up. I'm trying to keep things to angels and demons. I used to have other creatures running around like vampires. I took them out though. 

There's dragons too, but there's dragons in the Bible and most other myths.


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## Cjones (Mar 7, 2014)

I wanted varying species with my angels, devils and humans. Like giants, wolves, witches,  manbearpig, and some other fantastical stuff. I'm finding somewhat hard to implement them, except for the witches anyway.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 7, 2014)

I have most type of mythical creatures in my books. I even have some like the Daidarabotchi, Ziz, Quetzalcoatl, Nidhoggr, and some mentioned gods like Loki, Zeus, Vishnu, Buddha, etc.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 8, 2014)

The thing is that I wanted to avoid doing all that. I think that a lot of that stuff came from a time when I was less sure what I wanted a book about and I had all these wild ideas where I was going to link all these delicate mythologies together and get something reasonable out of it. 

The work to do justice by the source material and make it all make sense wasn't worth what it was doing. The angels and the demons were the only ones really doing anything important. The vampires could all just be demons and half demons in the great scheme of things and nothing interesting revolved around the other kinds of myth. There was some stuff to do with monsters like the Nix which I think was Greek, but that kind of stuff still sort of fits as it falls more under creature than Gods and the like. 

I chose to go this sort of Judo-Christian-Islamic way with things.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 8, 2014)

The only thing I explicitly don't have are unicorns.  I implicitly leave most creatures up in the air, because I haven't decided what's worth keeping yet.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 8, 2014)

I like the idea of the characters thinking the idea of certain creatures is stupid while walking around with creatures we don't believe in.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 8, 2014)

I have a character for that.  He insists unicorns are real, and chases after rumors about them like those people who go after the chupacabra, and everyone just rolls their eyes and says he should spend his time and talents solving the manticore migration mystery.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 8, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The thing is that I wanted to avoid doing all that. I think that a lot of that stuff came from a time when I was less sure what I wanted a book about and I had all these wild ideas where I was going to link all these delicate mythologies together and get something reasonable out of it.
> 
> The work to do justice by the source material and make it all make sense wasn't worth what it was doing. The angels and the demons were the only ones really doing anything important. The vampires could all just be demons and half demons in the great scheme of things and nothing interesting revolved around the other kinds of myth. There was some stuff to do with monsters like the Nix which I think was Greek, but that kind of stuff still sort of fits as it falls more under creature than Gods and the like.
> 
> I chose to go this sort of *Judeo-Christian-Islamic* way with things.



You mean "Abrahamic", right?

As a whole, since the characters I'm writing about are descendants of deities of old, I have to include them. The exception is Dharmic and Abrahamic religions because I considered them too creepy and Lovecraftian for this. In the book, there are no omnipotent Gods that can destroy everything or who have Lovecraftian forms... The "gods" are not even immortal... They're just very powerful, advanced aliens with powerful magical and spiritual abilities. They landed into our world ages ago, developed our culture and created many heroes, turning them into their own kin (hence why Valkyries and heroes like King Arthur, Iskander, Gilgamesh, Hercules, Medusa and Atalanta exist and even became gods themselves. It's the reason why gods and humans could mate and the humans would become gods and have divine offspring. It's the reason Shinigami are in charge of the afterlife independent of religion. Though Earth had their fair share of supernatural phenomena, a lot of mythical species and figures, weapons and magic (magic or magitek) arrived with them. They were the inspirations of philosophers, thinkers, artists, architects, warriors, workers, gladiators, politicians, monks, poets, lyricists, writers and even jesters and storytellers! Fashion and beauty were a fad their presence made... During their times there was no poverty... Just think about the last time you heard of poverty in the ancient ages? People would dream of growing up to become gods, training to becomes heroes or heroines and rise to fame. Legends, myths and even fairy tales were because they inspired humans to make them.

They left because of the Great Deluge, brought upon by humans turned gods who desired humanity to remain lonely and isolated from the rest of dimensions. Their lineages are vanquished in the prequel's final battle. As a whole, the problem of evil, and the Fermi paradox are the result of those power hungry traitors wanting Earth to die alone out of spite for how Earth was with the alien deities ruling. They went on to form the "evil" sides of Dharmic and Abrahamic pantheons, who actually had no good members (the only members were the evil ones, like the devil or Yama)...

As a whole, human mages are capable of defeating them, as are werewolves, vampires and the like. They aren't invincible, but defeating them is not worth the effort, given they're good (omnibenevolence exists as a word because none who were deities from birth were evil, but human born deities could be if they were evil while they were human) and the evil ones were purged of their evil.

As a whole, it's a fantasy epic with a fairy tale/love story...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 9, 2014)

I think that in ancient times pretty much most o the people around lived in poverty. I mean that's how it seems when I read about it, at least. 

And yeah Abrahamic religions are the basis of my things, but mostly because it's familiar and goes together and things were formed around those ideas. There's a fair share of sacrilege in the books too. 

The main character compares herself to God and puts herself on his level. She says other fucked up shit. I'm trying to walk a line where she's likable but visibly has problems. 

My book, at the moment, features the regular God and Lucifer. And then there's a group of creatures called Unmentionables that are basically Lovecraftian horrors that were made for different purposes and that are living, nearly omnipotent, nearly immortal things. Like there's one called Abraxas and his title is the end of infinity. He rides on a chariot made of the bodies of a million dead Angels.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 9, 2014)

2,300 words today. I need to keep this shit up so I can meet my deadline.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think that in ancient times pretty much most o the people around lived in poverty. I mean that's how it seems when I read about it, at least.
> 
> And yeah Abrahamic religions are the basis of my things, but mostly because it's familiar and goes together and things were formed around those ideas. There's a fair share of sacrilege in the books too.
> 
> ...



Well, the conditions they lived in would nowadays qualify as "poverty", but back then, it was as good as you could do.

I skipped Abrahamic Religions due to how they at times seem highly determinist and leave little room for interpretation. The "pagan" pantheons seemed far more numerous, colorful and overall, "fairy tale" like, and did not carry the problem of offending the religious.

As a whole, I did include Lovecraftian deities different from the pantheons, but they're not monsters... Normal deities are human-looking, so the "Lovecraftian" deities are actually deities just like their pantheon counterparts, but have animal forms instead... In this sense, it could be said that "Pantheon deities" care for humans, whereas "Lovecraftian" deities care for animals, leading to physical differences even though they live together and have no problems with each other.

In fact, the main character is going to get a "Lovecraftian" god as a summon and mount (the deity is a giant dragon, but he gets smaller after being "purified"). As a whole, the first arc is all about "pacifying" corrupted Lovecraftian or "animal gods" of nature... Something only the patrons of the Four Seasons, Valkyries, can do...

Also, on more news, I've finally decided to name the chapters "Movements" given I know not of a writer who's done it before and sounds good on my ears... Has anybody of you used a different name for your "Chapters" instead of... well... "Chapter"?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 9, 2014)

Hey guys, I'm having a bit of quandary.  Continuity, when I first started my current project I knew it was the sequel and by some measures the Grand Finale of my previous project. I wanted to finish it first because it was more conventionally structured and what I thought at the time, more standalone.  You don't necessarily have to read the prior to get the latter but there are plots that rely heavily on continuity which brings me to my ultimate conundrum. 

It spoils the previous story rotten. 

Alright, now that I think of it. That tends to be the whole problem of prequel/sequel issues. When the sequel comes first the audience knows the result of the central conflicts. It really shouldn't be a problem because this whole project is character driven with plot always secondary but I just have these reservations.


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## Tyrael (Mar 9, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Well, the conditions they lived in would nowadays qualify as "poverty", but back then, it was as good as you could do.
> 
> I skipped Abrahamic Religions due to how they at times seem highly determinist and leave little room for interpretation. The "pagan" pantheons seemed far more numerous, colorful and overall, "fairy tale" like, and did not carry the problem of offending the religious.
> 
> ...



I'm really confused about your use of the world "Lovecraftian" in here, since it's generally used in a more thematic sense. Do you mean your literally using the likes of Shub-Niggurath, Yog Sothoth and Hastur to represent different types of animals?



> Also, on more news, I've finally decided to name the chapters "Movements" given I know not of a writer who's done it before and sounds good on my ears... Has anybody of you used a different name for your "Chapters" instead of... well... "Chapter"?



Honestly, I wouldn't bother - it wouldn't make the story any better but it might distract the readers.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> I'm really confused about your use of the world "Lovecraftian" in here, since it's generally used in a more thematic sense. Do you mean your literally using the likes of Shub-Niggurath, Yog Sothoth and Hastur to represent different types of animals?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I wouldn't bother - it wouldn't make the story any better but it might distract the readers.



Sort of. I mean, those deities not only represent different types of animals, but are a powerful variant of those animals. Shub Niggurath would be the goddess of birds, and be the famous two headed eagle, Yog Sothoth would be a horned bear like deity and Azathoth is literally a dragon god... Naturally, Cthulhu would be the god of marine wildlife, but wouldn't be like an octopus, instead being akin to a translucent sea serpent...

I also had a minor plan to explain why their names can't be spelled, being that their names are actually a replacement cypher, with letters having different sounds, rendering "Cthulhu" as "Myuru" and the like.

As a whole, their relationship with normal deities is not unlike that of protected animals and humans, and they're capable of assuming human forms, since that's their "normal" form. Their animal appearance being something they chose to shapeshift into to express solidarity. This means that heroes like Atalanta, who shapeshifted into a lioness, would qualify for "Outer God" status.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 9, 2014)

You realize that the Elder Gods aren't so much Gods as they are forces indifferent to humanity and their plight. They more or less exist and destroy us not out of spite, but out of disregard for the fact that what they do effects us. 

Lovecraftian is less about the gods themselves and more about the themes. Hopelessness, a sense of humanity being insignificant and the like.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You realize that the Elder Gods aren't so much Gods as they are forces indifferent to humanity and their plight. They more or less exist and destroy us not out of spite, but out of disregard for the fact that what they do effects us.
> 
> Lovecraftian is less about the gods themselves and more about the themes. Hopelessness, a sense of humanity being insignificant and the like.



It's not as in "Lovecraftian" as a theme, but rather, the deities themselves having been distorted by Lovecraft's own nihilism (and fear of animals). As it turns out, those "Elder Gods" he wrote about don't give a crap about us, but they don't because why should they? Also, they won't destroy us just "because"... If anything, they can't destroy us at all! They're just another alien species minding their business, and even if they did hated us (which they don't) it would be no akin than fighting a war.

So, I'm not writing "Lovecraftian terror" but rather "letting people know how Lovecraftian gods really are". Not weird, unintelligible beings that can destroy the world! Just a bunch of snobbish, strikingly beautiful animals that are more likely to insult you in 25 languages and tie you into a leash whilst freeing your mistreated pets than destroy you.

Lovecraft just hated canines and feared fish, so it makes sense he'd hate a lot of them and write about them in such a way. At least, that's how it is _in media_.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 9, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> It's not as in "Lovecraftian" as a theme, but rather, the deities themselves having been distorted by Lovecraft's own nihilism (and fear of animals). As it turns out, those "Elder Gods" he wrote about don't give a crap about us, but they don't because why should they? Also, they won't destroy us just "because"... If anything, they can't destroy us at all! They're just another alien species minding their business, and even if they did hated us (which they don't) it would be no akin than fighting a war.
> 
> So, I'm not writing "Lovecraftian terror" but rather "letting people know how Lovecraftian gods really are". Not weird, unintelligible beings that can destroy the world! Just a bunch of snobbish, strikingly beautiful animals that are more likely to insult you in 25 languages and tie you into a leash whilst freeing your mistreated pets than destroy you.
> 
> Lovecraft just hated canines and feared fish, so it makes sense he'd hate a lot of them and write about them in such a way. At least, that's how it is _in media_.



If by "fish" you mean Arabs; then yes Lovecraft hated "fish".


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## Lord Yu (Mar 9, 2014)

What it sounds like you're doing is just taking the concept of animistic deities and giving them names from Lovecraft stories.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 9, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> What it sounds like you're doing is just taking the concept of animistic deities and giving them names from Lovecraft stories.



And if this is the case then it would make more sense to make up names of them. It doesn't gain any connection and depth just because you're naming them after these other creatures. It would be like me saying "McDonald's is a food truck in my world. Except instead of good they sell shoes and socks." 

There's no relation between the thing you're naming it after and what you're writing.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> If by "fish" you mean Arabs; then yes Lovecraft hated "fish".





Yes, he did hate fish!



Lord Yu said:


> What it sounds like you're doing is just taking the concept of animistic deities and giving them names from Lovecraft stories.



Not really. Lovecraftian deities are actually no different from normal ones. The difference is that they took on animal forms due to their fascination with animals, and represent them. As a whole, they're all just aliens, but they're referred to as deities and divided into different groups. Lovecraftian deities being those that represent different types of animals, and who were reviled by Lovecraft, causing him to describe them as hideous monsters instead.


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## Tyrael (Mar 9, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Yes, he did hate fish!
> 
> Not really. Lovecraftian deities are actually no different from normal ones. The difference is that they took on animal forms due to their fascination with animals, and represent them. As a whole, they're all just aliens, but they're referred to as deities and divided into different groups. Lovecraftian deities being those that represent different types of animals, and who were reviled by Lovecraft, causing him to describe them as hideous monsters instead.



I take it this is your fictional version of Lovecraft in your story? I'm confused about whether or not you're actually talking about your interpretations of his work or not.

The thing is Yog-Sothoth, for example, has nothing to do with bears. It's an entity that exists as a gateway between planes and dimensions, whilst also being locked out of our dimension, for example.

I've never come across him being described with animalistic features, and most artistic interpretations of him - well:


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## Buskuv (Mar 9, 2014)

Lovecraft only very vaguely describes the Elder Gods because they're supposed to be beyond human comprehension--it's all the artist interpretations that came afterwards which gave them their traditional styles we associate with it now.

You're just going to confuse any readers familiar with Lovecraft, and any that aren't won't really know what you mean, either.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> *I take it this is your fictional version of Lovecraft in your story?* I'm confused about whether or not you're actually talking about your interpretations of his work or not.
> 
> The thing is Yog-Sothoth, for example, has nothing to do with bears. It's an entity that exists as a gateway between planes and dimensions, whilst also being locked out of our dimension, for example.
> 
> I've never come across him being described with animalistic features, and most artistic interpretations of him - well:



That is correct. Lovecraft in media res and to my opinion, had a deep fear of animals and hatred of immigrants, so he, in story, took the animals he hated most (mostly fish and marine life) and distorted them until they were turned into his known abominations. As a whole, the "exists in other dimension" is something he threw in there to refer to the sea, with the planes and dimensions being his way of referring to islands and countries, and being locked out of them referring to marine life being unable to live inland.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 9, 2014)

Is Nyarlathotep the god of spaghetti?


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## Tyrael (Mar 9, 2014)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> Lovecraft only very vaguely describes the Elder Gods because they're supposed to be beyond human comprehension--it's all the artist interpretations that came afterwards which gave them their traditional styles we associate with it now.
> 
> You're just going to confuse any readers familiar with Lovecraft, and any that aren't won't really know what you mean, either.



Well it's not so much that they are beyond comprehension exactly, more that comprehension of Lovecraftian horrors destroys peoples minds and causes them to spiral into existential madness.

He does like describing how much he can't describe things though.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Is Nyarlathotep the god of spaghetti?



Nope, but I did take that into account. He's a lesser dragon serving Azathoth. As a whole, Nyalathotep is an Asian dragon, Azathoth a western one.

Why did they look like Spagetthi? Because Lovecraft was a nutcase animal hater and couldn't draw them in their true forms, so he described them the way he saw them...

As monsters.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Well it's not so much that they are beyond comprehension exactly, more that comprehension of Lovecraftian horrors destroys peoples minds and causes them to spiral into existential madness.
> 
> He does like describing how much he can't describe things though.



I did keep this to an extent, affecting all deities. Rather than "driving you insane", the deities are so beautiful they leave you an stuttering, drooling mess, simply because they are that strikingly beautiful. The same applies with the more beastly ones.


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## Tyrael (Mar 9, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> That is correct. Lovecraft in media res and to my opinion, had a deep fear of animals and hatred of immigrants, so he, in story, took the animals he hated most (mostly fish and marine life) and distorted them until they were turned into his known abominations. As a whole, the "exists in other dimension" is something he threw in there to refer to the sea, with the planes and dimensions being his way of referring to islands and countries, and being locked out of them referring to marine life being unable to live inland.



Fair enough likes, but I'd be inclined to agree with Boskov - as a Lovecraft fan, the way you're reappropriating his work is more confusing than anything.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Is Nyarlathotep the god of spaghetti?



Actually, the first time he appears (in his titular story) he's just wondering around as an old guy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 9, 2014)

Isn't he the most dickish of the Gods and the one that fucks with humans the most?


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Fair enough likes, but I'd be inclined to agree with Boskov - as a Lovecraft fan, the way you're reappropriating his work is more confusing than anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the first time he appears (in his titular story) he's just wondering around as an old guy, leading a cult.



That's why. Lovecraft never really described how they looked like to make them scary with people, since they'd insert their worst fear in the description, rather than objectively describe them. Their actual appearance is that of mystically magical animals not unlike Okami (from the same game).



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Isn't he the most dickish of the Gods and the one that fucks with humans the most?



In story, he sabotages the party (against Azathoth's sleepy orders) and is afterwards tried for treason. He gets depowered into a human, but rescues the party when they fall into a dungeon.

From there, he becomes subservient to the protagonist as a battle butler.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 9, 2014)

To be honest, this conversation is driving me into existential madness.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 9, 2014)

You do exist. Whether you actually belong here or another part of the multiverse is another story.


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## Monark (Mar 11, 2014)

so i just skimmed most of this discussion of Lovecraft, and it reminded me of precisely why i create my fantasy worlds from scratch: organic continuity.

building worlds is difficult enough without having to justify their originality in the process.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 11, 2014)

Monark said:


> so i just skimmed most of this discussion of Lovecraft, and it reminded me of precisely why i create my fantasy worlds from scratch: organic continuity.
> 
> building worlds is difficult enough without having to justify their originality in the process.



No one was claiming anything was not original, more that the thing being borrowed from was used in a confusing manner.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2014)

Looks like I might have to cross the hurdle of writing a realistic non stereotypical lesbian character.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 12, 2014)

Well, I'm not sure you can pull this one off, but the protagonist I write about is bi, and has some scenes with one of his friends... All I do is put myself in there, feigning interest in the way I'd feel I'd do if I actually met them and was like that...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Well, I'm not sure you can pull this one off, but the protagonist I write about is bi, and has some scenes with one of his friends... All I do is put myself in there, feigning interest in the way I'd feel I'd do if I actually met them and was like that...



I just met a cool lesbian on Something Awful who offered to help out with editing and the like. So I am going to take advantage of that. Considering that I'm writing from the perspective of two girls already I am already having to be careful with my characters and make sure that I am not stereotyping them. 

The lesbian character is actually my angel of death character and there won't really be too much relationship arc for her considering that she's not even tied completely to one dimension.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 12, 2014)

Given I regard sexuality as an spectrum, I never consider "outright gay" or "outright lesbian" characters... However, since lesbian and bisexual women are getting too heavy in fiction, I decide to focus that mostly on the guys, with two bi guys and a gay one...

It didn't strike me as horribly difficult.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Given I regard sexuality as an spectrum, I never consider "outright gay" or "outright lesbian" characters... However, since lesbian and bisexual women are getting too heavy in fiction, I decide to focus that mostly on the guys, with two bi guys and a gay one...
> 
> It didn't strike me as horribly difficult.



I don't really come across lesbians in fiction at all. I've come across some gay men. I don't mean that they have to act on it, but at least two YA books I have read have had gay males recently. 

And even on a spectrum there's a place that's pretty much all the way gay or straight. This character falls at the far end of the gay side of things. I didn't really make her that way, she's just that way. It wasn't a conscious choice. At some point in the course of writing her I came to the conclusion that McKenzie was gay.


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## tari101190 (Mar 12, 2014)

Oh I missed the Lovecraft discussion...

My story has elements of other myths, religions, and fantasies, but really wanted to avoid directly referencing anything because everything has been adapted to death already. There are already too many stories about the greek gods, or angels, or anything that already existed. I wanted to make something different that didn't mention anything already existing. The easiest way was to avoid naming things, and mashing up as many different cultural myths as possible.

And new Lovecraft book by guys like Gaiman!

*Lovecraft's Monsters 
*



> Prepare to meet the wicked progeny of the master of modern horror. In Lovecraft's Monsters, H. P. Lovecraft's most famous creations?Cthulhu, Shoggoths, Deep Ones, Elder Things, Yog-Sothoth, and more, appear in all their terrifying glory. Each story is a gripping new take on a classic Lovecraftian creature, and each is accompanied by a spectacular original illustration that captures the monsters' unique visage.
> 
> Contributors include such literary luminaries as Neil Gaiman, Joe R. Lansdale, Caitl?n R. Kiernan, Karl Edward Wagner, Elizabeth Bear, and Nick Mamatas. The monsters are lovingly rendered in spectacular original art by World Fantasy Award?winning artist John Coulthart (The Steampunk Bible).
> 
> Legions of Lovecraft fans continue to visit his bizarre landscapes and encounter his unrelenting monsters. Now join them in their journey...if you dare.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 12, 2014)

^^ 
You write in Gunblade Auto? (as in "characters create themselves"?)

Animanga and popular media features lesbians and bi women more heavily. Also, an spectrum always has at least 1% chance of turning around, otherwise, it'd be impossible to even form a friendship with the opposite or same gender.

Also, something else I've noticed is that in fiction, women are usually magical and mystical, whereas men usually use swords and shields. I decided to reverse this in most of my works. Guys are physical and magical and girls just physical.

There's also an "historical" snippet I want to share with you a bit later...


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## Monark (Mar 12, 2014)

^that has been the case for decades, though there is a growing trend in the opposite direction.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 12, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ^^
> You write in Gunblade Auto? (as in "characters create themselves"?)
> 
> Animanga and popular media features lesbians and bi women more heavily. Also, an spectrum always has at least 1% chance of turning around, otherwise, it'd be impossible to even form a friendship with the opposite or same gender.
> ...



Didn't you know? The vagina is magic. It makes people crazy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ^^
> You write in Gunblade Auto? (as in "characters create themselves"?)
> 
> Animanga and popular media features lesbians and bi women more heavily. Also, an spectrum always has at least 1% chance of turning around, otherwise, it'd be impossible to even form a friendship with the opposite or same gender.
> ...



Well if anyone in my world used a sword and shield they'd catch a bullet. And this is, in part, why I don't watch anime. It's skewed towards fan service (another visual media thing that usually shouldn't be in writing) my lesbian is going to be realistic not the flash the boys her panties "look but don't touch"  tease kind. 

You guys have got to get this anime influence thing under control...it's crippling and it ruins the marketability of your work.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 12, 2014)

What about a riot shield?

There's really a perfect way to fit guns and swords together. In my world swords are mostly used by mages dealing with monsters, and in certain countries blades are just more common due to firearm restriction or just cultural preference. 

My protagonist tends to carry to pistols and a knife along with her sword.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> What about a riot shield?
> 
> There's really a perfect way to fit guns and swords together. In my world swords are mostly used by mages dealing with monsters, and in certain countries blades are just more common due to firearm restriction or just cultural preference.
> 
> My protagonist tends to carry to pistols and a knife along with her sword.



A riot sheild will break if you shoot it repeatedly. I do have swords, but they're never used by anyone human and even the other creatures tend to use guns. Guns just make more sense they're not hard to used. But they have the same chance of breaking an angel's defense.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 12, 2014)

Monark said:


> ^that has been the case for decades, though there is a growing trend in the opposite direction.



I want to be part of that trend.



Lord Yu said:


> Didn't you know? The vagina is magic. It makes people crazy.



Let's change that!



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well if anyone in my world used a sword and shield they'd catch a bullet. And this is, in part, why I don't watch anime. It's skewed towards fan service (another visual media thing that usually shouldn't be in writing) my lesbian is going to be realistic not the flash the boys her panties "look but don't touch"  tease kind.
> 
> You guys have got to get this anime influence thing under control...it's crippling and it ruins the marketability of your work.



There are lots of book with fanservice lesbians actually...

However, as a whole, the only influence from anime is the aesthetic and power tiers. These two are hard to distinguish in books, so it isn't as big a deal.



Lord Yu said:


> What about a riot shield?
> 
> There's really a perfect way to fit guns and swords together. In my world swords are mostly used by mages dealing with monsters, and in certain countries blades are just more common due to firearm restriction or just cultural preference.
> 
> My protagonist tends to carry to pistols and a knife along with her sword.



Sounds like Final Fantasy XV's ban on firearms.

As a whole, everyone can use powerful magic, but really mystical, overpowered magic is almost the domain of Valkyries (who are all male).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2014)

Leaving this here:http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/feb/20/10-rules-for-writing-fiction-part-two


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## Lord Yu (Mar 12, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Sounds like Final Fantasy XV's ban on firearms.



I was going more for Korea and Japan's strict firearm restrictions.  In those countries, they tend to favor knives or blunt instruments because it's hard to get a gun.


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## Tyrael (Mar 12, 2014)

Sounds like most countries in Europe too.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 12, 2014)

Yeah, in some situations, a nice hidden blade is better.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 12, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I was going more for Korea and Japan's strict firearm restrictions.  In those countries, they tend to favor knives or blunt instruments because it's hard to get a gun.



Firearm bans are not something that gets respected in fiction, so they are mostly moot to me.



Lord Yu said:


> Yeah, in some situations, a nice hidden blade is better.



I can't argue with this though...

Also:


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## Monark (Mar 13, 2014)

that writelife article is right on the money, though unless you are just now venturing into the writing world, most of what it lists is common sense. at least that is my impression.

the pace of plot within fiction has steadily increased over the last decade. the audience's attention spans have decreased, so the flowery descriptiveness of times past no longer captivates them.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 13, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Looks like I might have to cross the hurdle of writing a realistic non stereotypical lesbian character.



Make a lesbian that's from a loving and understanding upper class family who accepts her for who she is without having to first almost lose her from their life.  That'd be a first.



Sleipnyr said:


> ^^
> You write in Gunblade Auto? (as in "characters create themselves"?)
> 
> Animanga and popular media features lesbians and bi women more heavily. Also, an spectrum always has at least 1% chance of turning around, otherwise, it'd be impossible to even form a friendship with the opposite or same gender.
> ...



I mix everything because I'm tired of that trope, and the reverse, and just find it more realistic.  Though I've found in books where girls are just swords, and guys are magical, magic usually tends to be better choice.  Whereas in most, where men are warriors, and women are magic, the key battles and strongest fighters are usually warriors, and swords win the day.  Until you get into gods that make and un-make universes with magic, and every royal or noble and king and lord possesses high sagely magic.  Magic always gets a weird role, largely because it's ill defined will little thought given to its systems, functions, roles, or limitations.



Lord Yu said:


> I was going more for Korea and Japan's strict firearm restrictions.  In those countries, they tend to favor knives or blunt instruments because it's hard to get a gun.



Most criminals carry knifes, because they're easier to conceal, easier to acquire, and crimes committed with or while carrying a knife carry far lighter penalties than crimes that involve a firearm.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 13, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Make a lesbian that's from a loving and understanding upper class family who accepts her for who she is without having to first almost lose her from their life.  That'd be a first.


She already is written that way. Her parents are really understanding. She is really mentally healthy


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 13, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> She already is written that way. Her parents are really understanding. She is really mentally healthy



Then you're deep into uncharted territory, and I'm out of advice.  I'll have to think about it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 13, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Then you're deep into uncharted territory, and I'm out of advice.  I'll have to think about it.



She's intelligent and not socially active or aggressive. She also has no problem with men. She's also kind of girlie, but that's because I don't find that not too be the case with lesbians and bisexuals I meet.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 13, 2014)

In my noir story the protagonist is pretty much a lesbian, has no issues with her family. But the society it's set in doesn't really have much of a problem with homosexuality. She's from a comfortably middle class family.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 13, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> She's intelligent and not socially active or aggressive. She also has no problem with men. She's also kind of girlie, but that's because I don't find that not too be the case with lesbians and bisexuals I meet.



She sounds like a well adjusted and normal person who happens to like women.  As if her character, conflict, and personality are not determined solely by her sexual preference, despite it being a part of her.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 13, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Make a lesbian that's from a loving and understanding upper class family who accepts her for who she is without having to first almost lose her from their life.  That'd be a first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Would it look good if my main character who's bi comes from a billionaire family?

My characters can all use physical attacks and magic. However, really powerful magic is usually wielded by the guys with girls preferring swordplay and melee combat. The exception is Valkyries, who wield both magic and melee weapons better than they should. Both have the same strengths and weaknesses, but balancing them wins the fight. Men usually have to trade off magic for melee skills... Females, however, must do the opposite and let their weapons weaken to cast magic. Valkyries have a natural advantage over either by being able to use both at their peak power, rather than using magic for support or swordplay to parry attacks.

There's also the legendary blue blooded in the stories... They aren't royalty, but pass of as such and wield higher magical and melee abilities than anyone but Valkyries themselves.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> She's intelligent and not socially active or aggressive. She also has no problem with men. She's also kind of girlie, but that's because I don't find that not too be the case with lesbians and bisexuals I meet.



If that's how it is, then leave her sexuality at home. Develop her without thinking about her sexuality and let it flow until you're done. Change anything between the characters so that her sexuality fits in later.

Something I've wondered is "there are bicurious people who turn out to be bi" but those start as straight most of the time, so I thought about turning it around by making a character that's initially lesbian and then becomes bi at a moment in the story.

That may be a bit harder...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 14, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> She sounds like a well adjusted and normal person who happens to like women.  As if her character, conflict, and personality are not determined solely by her sexual preference, despite it being a part of her.



She's well adjusted considering who and what she is, I guess. 



Sleipnyr said:


> If that's how it is, then leave her sexuality at home. Develop her without thinking about her sexuality and let it flow until you're done. Change anything between the characters so that her sexuality fits in later.
> 
> Something I've wondered is "there are bicurious people who turn out to be bi" but those start as straight most of the time, so I thought about turning it around by making a character that's initially lesbian and then becomes bi at a moment in the story.
> 
> That may be a bit harder...



The thing is that there are plenty of girls who kiss other girls at a young age and into their teens and kind of shrug that side of themselves off in preference of boys. It doesn't mean they're not bi. Where you end up isn't a marker of what you are. Attraction is. As long as they're attracted to women they're still bi. 

The same way some gays marry to try and hide from their true feelings. 

I'll probably just place them in as I come to them, I don't do as well with the adding things back in later because it throws the flow off. I'm just introducing her so I am going to see how she looks on paper.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 14, 2014)

In my current story, I have a gay man who falls in love with a woman. He has a boyfriend whom he loves and he has been on team Penis all his life so he is very confused. Awkwardness ensues.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 14, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Would it look good if my main character who's bi comes from a billionaire family?



Uhm, I don't know.  I'm really not an expert on gay and bisexual characters.  I just know what makes me quit reading fiction, and it's when people have the cliche'd coming out scene and chapter, even when having one detracts from the current story and theme.  It's almost as annoying as the fantasy trope where that guy you know is going to betray the party from his introduction finally betrays the party, and you get that after chapter where everyone is the most mentally and emotionally wounded and isolated person in the world, and they'll never be able to trust anyone again.  

Though I think it would be funny if a person is being sneaky, running off at night, meeting with some contact, and raising all of the flags for betraying the party, only to find out they're not evil, and were just hiding their sexuality whilst running off to write letters and meet up with their significant other.  



> My characters can all use physical attacks and magic. However, really powerful magic is usually wielded by the guys with girls preferring swordplay and melee combat. The exception is Valkyries, who wield both magic and melee weapons better than they should. Both have the same strengths and weaknesses, but balancing them wins the fight. Men usually have to trade off magic for melee skills... Females, however, must do the opposite and let their weapons weaken to cast magic. Valkyries have a natural advantage over either by being able to use both at their peak power, rather than using magic for support or swordplay to parry attacks.
> 
> There's also the legendary blue blooded in the stories... They aren't royalty, but pass of as such and wield higher magical and melee abilities than anyone but Valkyries themselves.



What kind of magic do you have?  What are its limits?


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## Monark (Mar 14, 2014)

having followed this discussion from the beginning, i have to ask- what do your characters think about this? what do they believe? what do they seek from the worlds you've placed them into?

i keep reading about what you want from them- that you want them to break stereotypes of gender and trope- but i've yet to read anything about what those characters might want for themselves.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 14, 2014)

For my example, I'd say just read my story for that.


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## Monark (Mar 14, 2014)

assuming you are talking to me, alex, i would say that's fair enough. 

all i'm suggesting is that characters are not puppets- if they are gay, or warriors, or whatever else you seek in them, they should be so for their own reasons. a complete character creates her own story even before you place her into the one people read.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 14, 2014)

Monark said:


> having followed this discussion from the beginning, i have to ask- what do your characters think about this? what do they believe? what do they seek from the worlds you've placed them into?
> 
> i keep reading about what you want from them- that you want them to break stereotypes of gender and trope- but i've yet to read anything about what those characters might want for themselves.



I don't tend to talk about those things because those are the things I am pretty sure I have a decent enough handle on. I don't usually share too much of the stuff about what they're wanting from the world or what they believe, even though I kind of do share that stuff from time to time. I've posted more excerpts in this thread than anyone and I know my characters probably as well as anyone should. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but even then it's not what I want them to do as much as what they want to do. I try not to force my characters in directions and I just feel them out. If what I read doesn't sound like them or make sense for them I don't write it and I go another route. Everything I have was pretty much done like this. Annemarie and Daunte's relationship, Lissette's brashness and pride. Lewis's general coldness towards others. 

There are times I would like to do something else or something different, but it's not what works for them.


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## Monark (Mar 14, 2014)

i'm not suggesting it has to be perfect- in truth, it never is. 

nor was i requesting that you post or discuss detailed information about your characters. as a fellow writer, i understand how personal that information is. i'm simply supplying questions to ask for yourself, as a check against character stagnation. 

i use this process myself, and find it to be extremely helpful.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 14, 2014)

The characters that give me issues most are the ones I don't have to write often or haven't written for long. Lucifer for instance was never meant to be a huge staple in my stuff so I am struggling right now to write him. Maybe it's because I need to get a better understanding for the character I'm portraying. I have some quotes about him from different sources and the like, but nothing is popping and to be honest when I asked for suggestions most people tend to point to Dante or Milton. 

I don't really want to use what people thought about him 600 years ago, I want an idea that seems fresh and while I know I have to make it myself, I don't really know what he wants yet intimately enough for me to get him. 

I think I am going to have to get out a Bible and Koran and look over what it say about him directly in there and build upon that.

This bit from the Koran was one of the huge shaping factors when I first started down this route: 
*
God:* "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" 
*Devil: *"I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 14, 2014)

Monark said:


> having followed this discussion from the beginning, i have to ask- what do your characters think about this? what do they believe? what do they seek from the worlds you've placed them into?
> 
> i keep reading about what you want from them- that you want them to break stereotypes of gender and trope- but i've yet to read anything about what those characters might want for themselves.



My characters don't break the tropes because I want them to or force them to.  I built a world that brings about a society that produces the people who don't fall victim to stereotypes and tropes.  Then I write about them doing the things they do, with the people they're around and interact with, and how they react to the situations they find themselves in.  Situations, which also arise from the world.  From that I get a hopefully cool story.



> I can't speak for anyone else, but even then it's not what I want them to do as much as what they want to do. I try not to force my characters in directions and I just feel them out. If what I read doesn't sound like them or make sense for them I don't write it and I go another route. Everything I have was pretty much done like this.



Okay, so pretty much this.



> There are times I would like to do something else or something different, but it's not what works for them.



When I find I want to tell another story, and none of my characters are fit to tell it, I create a new character who can.


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## Monark (Mar 14, 2014)

for the record, i'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence or imply you don't know what you're doing- clearly you do, otherwise you wouldn't be here discussing it. 

personally, i hate providing creative criticism via internet forums- it's a harsh medium, barren of any normal human emotion.


----------



## Nordstrom (Mar 14, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Uhm, I don't know.  I'm really not an expert on gay and bisexual characters.  I just know what makes me quit reading fiction, and it's when people have the cliche'd coming out scene and chapter, even when having one detracts from the current story and theme.  It's almost as annoying as the fantasy trope where that guy you know is going to betray the party from his introduction finally betrays the party, and you get that after chapter where everyone is the most mentally and emotionally wounded and isolated person in the world, and they'll never be able to trust anyone again.
> 
> Though I think it would be funny if a person is being sneaky, running off at night, meeting with some contact, and raising all of the flags for betraying the party, only to find out they're not evil, and were just hiding their sexuality whilst running off to write letters and meet up with their significant other.
> 
> ...



There is no "coming out" scene. Society then will give LGBT men and women the same rights as straight men and women. His parents couldn't care less (but they still get a say on how they want the wedding )

The character doesn't treat it strangely, nor does any other character (for one, when he's cheering up his new best friend to enter a building to take the ACC Trial (a combat trial), his nervous friend says he can't do because he's nowhere near as good as the rest of them (main character and his posse). So the main character simply cuts him off with a kiss and tells him he'll be waiting for him, the guy goes and takes the trial (and since this isn't like Earth's exams, he passes, since they only want to know how good you are, not for you to be great) and he returns and jumps on the main character's arms.

My question was regarding social status. There are no middle class characters. Almost everyone is wealthy, so is the main character.

Also, magic isn't really magic. There is magic and "imaging". Imaging is creating effects by using "backup" or "domain" over certain powers. Magic is used by mages and non-deity characters. Imaging can only be used by deities. While strong magic allows you to create lakes and flatten mountains from energy attacks and gives you the strength to lift and hurl mansions around, enables flying and moving at fighter jet speeds and allows interdimensional travel and teleporting, imaging allows you to change the weather, locally reverse time, close black holes, travel faster than light with finite energy and no time dilation, allows interdimensional travel and teleporting of vast areas of land and sea, creating canyons, engineering new species, riding atop multi-story tall dragon, communicate with animals, moving mountains, creating earthquakes with their strength, survive within absolute zero temperatures, uproot and wield skyscrapers as weapons (weak ones can use the Burj Khalifa as a club) and level metropolitan areas the size of Tokyo.

Valkyries can change global weather patterns, overwrite the magnetic configuration of the poles, turn asteroid belts into an inhabitable habitat with it's own atmosphere (Skyland), generate hypercanes and typhoons, give others the ability to fly, neutralize gamma ray bursts, breathe lava and metabolize it's minerals, restore the ozone layer, compress minerals into petroleum, turn smog into an stimulant antihistamine gas that temporarily enhances the abilities of those who breath them, charm men and women alike into loving them genuinely (they can make you love them as if it was true love), transform animals into humans or deities, trigger full Solar or Lunar eclipses, remove the powers of a rogue deity or Valkyrie and generate much more energy than they have expended.

Mind you, this are the top tier powers that they won't be throwing around. Other than that, magic and imaging are the same. But the gap between their top tiers is staggering.

There is a reason these guys are called "deities" and not "mages". They were mistaken for gods for years.

You could say that they are like benevolent, human looking Celestials.


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## Monark (Mar 14, 2014)

^that's pretty sweet

are you planning on depicting all of that, or is that simply a database of abilities for you to pull from?


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## Nordstrom (Mar 14, 2014)

Monark said:


> ^that's pretty sweet
> 
> are you planning on depicting all of that, or is that simply a database of abilities for you to pull from?



Mostly a database. From time to time, you'll see the top tier powers, such as during a final battle sequence. Otherwise, it'll top at Bleach/Code Geass/Nasuverse/Lyrical Nanoha destruction.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 14, 2014)

Monark said:


> for the record, i'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence or imply you don't know what you're doing- clearly you do, otherwise you wouldn't be here discussing it.
> 
> personally, i hate providing creative criticism via internet forums- it's a harsh medium, barren of any normal human emotion.



I didn't think you were.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 14, 2014)

In terms of destructive power, I don't really think about classifying it or trying to take it up to the maximum level with these characters. There are signs of ridiculous power like the fact that reality is ripped due to the war in Heaven.


----------



## Nordstrom (Mar 15, 2014)

Monark said:


> having followed this discussion from the beginning, i have to ask- what do your characters think about this? what do they believe? what do they seek from the worlds you've placed them into?
> 
> i keep reading about what you want from them- that you want them to break stereotypes of gender and trope- but i've yet to read anything about what those characters might want for themselves.



I forgot to answer this.

As a whole, my characters are created independently. Once I have them in a pool of sorts, I envision the world I wanted to envision. Because it is a world where "you can be yourself" they show how they'd be in there. As a whole, most of my characters would enjoy the world I put them on, given that they can be anything they want. Their motivations are because of other characters, rather than the world. In the case there's something that they don't like, it's usually because a character's keeping it that way.

I don't design characters to break stereotypes... The characters themselves follow no stereotypes, which leads to breaking them. For one, the main character's weapon (which talks) refers to him as "princess" despite him being a guy. It is that way because it's a weapon usually wielded by females, but he has it and likes the combat style, so he's keeping it.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> In terms of destructive power, I don't really think about classifying it or trying to take it up to the maximum level with these characters. There are signs of ridiculous power like the fact that reality is ripped due to the war in Heaven.



I won't go that far. However, changing the weather is part of the main character's powers, given Valkyrie's purpose is to geoengineer deserted areas and make them biophillic (life friendly, but more along the lines of "human, magical and animal life friendly") and watch over the four seasons. For one, they can make it so tropical areas have four seasons and can make plant life adaptive to autumn and winter. Their presence is also antagonistic to insects, fungi and microbial life, and realms with at least one Valkyrie are devoid of insects with the exception of normal ants, fireflies and honeybees. No spiders, centipedes, flies, gnats, mosquitoes, mites of all sorts or even centipedes. Fungi of all kind with the exception of small truffles are also unable to grow. This is because those organisms may hurt or cause discomfort to animals. Also, dangerous animals aren't born either. On the flip side, magical species start to increase in numbers and diversity, given that they are no more of a threat than humans are. They also keep the summers cool and winters mild but snowy and icy.

Valkyries as a whole, are pretty much an eco-friendly, male version of the Sailor Senshi. They look over seasons in various realms and there may be more than one looking over a season and in the same world. The main character looks over Fall and Winter, so he'll have a few companions with which to walk maple colored or snow coated forests.

If it were a movie, it'd have to be CGI driven, real life or not. If it were an anime, it'd need a high end studio. No Trigger whatsoever


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 15, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I won't go that far. However, changing the weather is part of the main character's powers, given Valkyrie's purpose is to geoengineer deserted areas and make them biophillic (life friendly, but more along the lines of "human, magical and animal life friendly") and watch over the four seasons. For one, they can make it so tropical areas have four seasons and can make plant life adaptive to autumn and winter. Their presence is also antagonistic to insects, fungi and microbial life, and realms with at least one Valkyrie are devoid of insects with the exception of normal ants, fireflies and honeybees. No spiders, centipedes, flies, gnats, mosquitoes, mites of all sorts or even centipedes. Fungi of all kind with the exception of small truffles are also unable to grow. This is because those organisms may hurt or cause discomfort to animals. Also, dangerous animals aren't born either. On the flip side, magical species start to increase in numbers and diversity, given that they are no more of a threat than humans are. They also keep the summers cool and winters mild but snowy and icy.
> 
> Valkyries as a whole, are pretty much an eco-friendly, male version of the Sailor Senshi. They look over seasons in various realms and there may be more than one looking over a season and in the same world. The main character looks over Fall and Winter, so he'll have a few companions with which to walk maple colored or snow coated forests.
> 
> If it were a movie, it'd have to be CGI driven, real life or not. If it were an anime, it'd need a high end studio. No Trigger whatsoever



The rip in reality looks like what you see in those space photos where clouds of gas light years long are seen from a distance. It's huge and colorful and it's part of everyday life in this world. Just another thing in the sky like the moon or sun. 

I have moments of brilliance where characters show what they are capable of.  Most of it might not ever make it back on the page. The angel of might actually escapes a black hole, pulling so hard that light bursts out around her.

The Angel of Death is to the point where she can walk through time and space. I'm thinking of hinting that she even realizes that she's in a work of fiction. 

The main villain in this first little stint, Abraxas is said to be riding on a chariot made of a million dead angels. I try to give the idea that these people aren't usually using their full power to do things or can't because of limitations like access. 

Lucifer is cut off from some of his power since he fell. But he's still immensely powerful compared to the average creature.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 15, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The rip in reality looks like what you see in those space photos where clouds of gas light years long are seen from a distance. It's huge and colorful and it's part of everyday life in this world. Just another thing in the sky like the moon or sun.
> 
> I have moments of brilliance where characters show what they are capable of.  Most of it might not ever make it back on the page. The angel of might actually escapes a black hole, pulling so hard that light bursts out around her.
> 
> ...



Well, as a whole, deities in my story don't do things that are dangerous to life. But they still do incredible things (for one, their existence proves the universe is open and immortal, throws away the second law of thermodynamics and special relativity (no time dilation at FTL speeds, no length contraction either and definitely no relativity of simultaneity) and even proves airbreathing jet engines can work in space. They also prove that time travel can be isolated (you can change a result in the past without changing lots of stuff or generating a paradox, but time travel as a whole will be rendered illegal and impossible before the story even starts) and that there's a multiverse and dimensional travel is easy (Dimensional drives, which are NOT Alcubierre drives).

Don't expect to see anything beyond "bring about a new Ice Age" in the story. As an spoiler, there are four kingdoms corresponding to the seasons, each with a Lineage Valkyrie (Valkyrie with Blue Blood) that is permanently in one season because of a Valkyrie-Empress command. Right now, the only one without their season is the main character's own, given he's to succeed his mother, who left early. He'll sink the kingdom in a permanent Winter.

And just because I feel like being a troll, I'll tell you all that this idea came before I watched Frozen  

Though I did draw from The Snow Queen at some point. But then again, I'm drawing from a shitload of fairy tales, given that it is basically a modern fairy tale epic.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 15, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Well, as a whole, deities in my story don't do things that are dangerous to life. But they still do incredible things (for one, their existence proves the universe is open and immortal, throws away the second law of thermodynamics and special relativity (no time dilation at FTL speeds, no length contraction either and definitely no relativity of simultaneity) and even proves airbreathing jet engines can work in space. They also prove that time travel can be isolated (you can change a result in the past without changing lots of stuff or generating a paradox, but time travel as a whole will be rendered illegal and impossible before the story even starts) and that there's a multiverse and dimensional travel is easy (Dimensional drives, which are NOT Alcubierre drives).
> 
> Don't expect to see anything beyond "bring about a new Ice Age" in the story. As an spoiler, there are four kingdoms corresponding to the seasons, each with a Lineage Valkyrie (Valkyrie with Blue Blood) that is permanently in one season because of a Valkyrie-Empress command. Right now, the only one without their season is the main character's own, given he's to succeed his mother, who left early. He'll sink the kingdom in a permanent Winter.
> 
> And just because I feel like being a troll, I'll tell you all that this idea came before I watched Frozen  Though I did draw from The Snow Queen at some point. But then again, I'm drawing from a shitload of fairy tales, given that it is basically a modern fairy tale epic.


Everyone talks about Frozen, I might have to see it. 

I have three dimensions. One of them is this one, the other two are more magically based. One of the things that I really want to do is inculde cameos for Death in anything I write. Even if I write something down the road where there is not magic, just slip her in a little scene kind of drinking coffee in the background or something. 

My Angels will threaten lives because they generally don't care about the human life cycle. The soul is eternal and if you die you either were good and will be in paradise or you deserved Hell. 

I'm trying to draw from source material. Book of Enoch, Bible, Koran and the like. I want to keep a lot of the Milton and Dante stuff out if I can.


----------



## Nordstrom (Mar 15, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Everyone talks about Frozen, I might have to see it.
> 
> I have three dimensions. One of them is this one, the other two are more magically based. One of the things that I really want to do is inculde cameos for Death in anything I write. Even if I write something down the road where there is not magic, just slip her in a little scene kind of drinking coffee in the background or something.
> 
> ...



It's just that "Blue-blooded, green eyed, fair skinned, blond, long-haired, Empress with ice based powers in ice castle able to talk in 25+ languages and also a great singer" is more than likely to sound like someone's talking about Frozen.

About the afterlife. Once you die, you're reborn in another world. It takes just a few hours during which you are in a sleep like state and can dream and everything, then you forget everything and open your eyes for the first time...

In rarer cases, you might be reborn directly into the body and or life you desired if you were a good person. While being a good person gives you a reward, being a bad person doesn't means you're punished, since you'll forget everything upon being reborn. Committing suicide will also land you into the world you wanted, given that it is made out of spite of this world. The more attached you feel to this world, the more likely you're to be born normally, rather than reborn waking up in your dream world, circumstance and or body. Being suicidal warrants that you're detached since you wouldn't take your own life unless you really wanted something. Dying of old age means you're very attached (most of the time) and you get reborn without your memories to forget the world in which you were before.

There's an afterlife too... However, it only happens if you die by being killed by another person. It is a healing place not unlike the Greek afterlife, where psychopump deities (Grim reapers, which look like normal people but are usually dressed in armor and Shinigami) take care of the wounds of your body, and you get to rest for as long as you desire until you decide to be reborn. The catch is that these guys get the sweetest treatment, since they can decide how and where they want to be reborn.


----------



## Monark (Mar 15, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> In terms of destructive power, I don't really think about classifying it or trying to take it up to the maximum level with these characters. There are signs of ridiculous power like the fact that reality is ripped due to the war in Heaven.



interesting. 

i approach power similarly in my own project: there is one over-arching ability, with varying degrees of efficacy among the populace. basically, everyone has this power, but some people are naturally better attuned to it than others. 

my main problem is that this power pertains to the manipulation of reality itself, down to the most fundamental level.  




Sleipnyr said:


> I forgot to answer this.
> 
> As a whole, my characters are created independently. Once I have them in a pool of sorts, I envision the world I wanted to envision. Because it is a world where "you can be yourself" they show how they'd be in there. As a whole, most of my characters would enjoy the world I put them on, given that they can be anything they want. Their motivations are because of other characters, rather than the world. In the case there's something that they don't like, it's usually because a character's keeping it that way.
> 
> I don't design characters to break stereotypes... The characters themselves follow no stereotypes, which leads to breaking them. For one, the main character's weapon (which talks) refers to him as "princess" despite him being a guy. It is that way because it's a weapon usually wielded by females, but he has it and likes the combat style, so he's keeping it.



i see. 

well, for me, the characters who inhabit my worlds should come with their own stories already attached to them. they should come with emotional baggage. it's sort of like an unwritten prequel emblazoned upon their thoughts and dialogue, as they work their way through whatever situations i throw them into. 

of course, as easy as it is for me to describe, the process itself has always proven to be extremely difficult. i can always see where the story will eventually lead, but getting there is a different deal.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 21, 2014)

This place died for a bit.

How should I revive it?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2014)

I see the Flash Fiction contest got it's own little advertisement at the top of the page now. Did you guys ever bother to tell the people in here about it? I'm not really interested but some of the others might be wanting to try it out.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 21, 2014)

I should try it again. I need the practice.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2014)

I thought that I might try it again and see if I can do it again. But the thing stopped me was the categories.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 21, 2014)

I've seen the themes and I'm not too fond with any of them.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2014)

Well I'm not going to listen to your shitty pretentious song and write what I feel about that, it's too open. 

Anyway, I am realizing that the interpretation we have of the Four Horsemen is very much open to interpretation. I think that I'm going to use Death because she's got that hard back story, but I'm going to re-imagine the rest to a degree.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 21, 2014)

Death is played. Why does Pestilence never get any love?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Death is played. Why does Pestilence never get any love?



Because he's not real. The white horse is Conquest (I'm going to use Victory as a name, I think). 

And War gets a fair amount of play.


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## Buskuv (Mar 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I'm not going to listen to your shitty pretentious song and write what I feel about that, it's too open.



Just mad you have boring taste?

You did that exact same thing years ago, just fine, without anti-creative blubbering.  That tree finish sprouting up your ass?

OK, but seriously, that's coming off way more seriously than it should.  Why the hate, CTK?  The point of the FF was always to go out of your comfort zone, even if it didn't always quite go there as much as it should.



Also, Death and War are more immediate, more constant ideas.  Pestilence is a slower, less 'holy shit' kind of thing, I suppose.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 21, 2014)

I was being facetious. 

Though, I'd like to see an in depth personification of Pestilence now that I think about it.


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## Buskuv (Mar 21, 2014)

I think it'd be pretty neat.

But not solely on the merit that it's rarely or never done, but rather that it would be interesting to see a virulent, malicious disease be personified.


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 22, 2014)

I have a friend who is using the Four Horsemen in his series. But they're the children of the Horsemen who become the new Horsemen.


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## Monark (Mar 22, 2014)

what i would like to know is what any of you are bickering about

a prompt is a prompt is a prompt

if you're truly creative, you can make it work


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## crazymtf (Mar 23, 2014)

am trying to get number 1 spot in horror section for "Free" kindle books. I'm 32 now. So if you HAVEN'T downloaded my book do it now, please. It's "Free" and can get it on kindle/ipad/ipod/andriod device/PC/Mac so please help out, download, and share! Thanks!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 23, 2014)

I treat the Horseman like a mantle, their powers wouldn't be passed on through blood relations. They have to be bestowed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 24, 2014)

I'd like Pestilence.  Plagues are far more deadly than war anyway, and he would be scarier.  Imagine a horseman riding through your town, and knowing that after he passes you're all cursed to suffer and die miserably.  War is something you can run from.  Death just makes you die.  Or that nothing is going to happen, until suddenly you'll be cursed with disaster after disaster that leave you and everyone else struggling but unable to ever come out from under.


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## Krory (Mar 24, 2014)

Monark said:


> what i would like to know is what any of you are bickering about
> 
> a prompt is a prompt is a prompt
> 
> if you're truly creative, you can make it work



Shit, look at what people did with the Comedy prompt.  And even the recent paradise prompt has elicited some very interesting results. It's just a matter of if one is creative enough to think of something.

@CrazyMuthaFucka - Just downloaded it. Good luck, brah (been a long ass time since we crossed paths ).


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## Krory (Mar 24, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'd like Pestilence.  Plagues are far more deadly than war anyway, and he would be scarier.  Imagine a horseman riding through your town, and knowing that after he passes you're all cursed to suffer and die miserably.  War is something you can run from.  Death just makes you die.  Or that nothing is going to happen, until suddenly you'll be cursed with disaster after disaster that leave you and everyone else struggling but unable to ever come out from under.



Don't care how stupid some people think it is, I liked the Pestilence/Roanoke crossover bit in the show _Sleepy Hollow_.


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## Bluebeard (Mar 24, 2014)

krory said:


> Don't care how stupid some people think it is, I liked the Pestilence/Roanoke crossover bit in the show _Sleepy Hollow_.



Sleepy Hollow is awesome.


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## Krory (Mar 24, 2014)

Bluebeard said:


> Sleepy Hollow is awesome.



I'm mostly in it for the humor - Tom Mison is really fucking entertaining (though John Noble's involvement towards the end was quite interesting). But I liked the inclusion of Pestilence in relation to Roanoke Island and how, and why, it disappeared.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2014)

Monark said:


> what i would like to know is what any of you are bickering about
> 
> a prompt is a prompt is a prompt
> 
> if you're truly creative, you can make it work



We're not bickering, we're making points about problems with certain types of prompts, like musical ones. You can interpret them however you want at that point. There's not enough restraints. 

And a prompt isn't very likely to be how you write any professional narrative. It's always funny to see people claim if you're truly creative X. People need to drop the mysticism and bullshit with writing. It's a lot of hard work, often times there's a lot of research and you have to edit and work really hard to make things go together. Creativity is part of it, but it's not as if being creative makes you infallible or like creativity will save you from having trouble with coming up with ideas from time to time. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'd like Pestilence.  Plagues are far more deadly than war anyway, and he would be scarier.  Imagine a horseman riding through your town, and knowing that after he passes you're all cursed to suffer and die miserably.  War is something you can run from.  Death just makes you die.  Or that nothing is going to happen, until suddenly you'll be cursed with disaster after disaster that leave you and everyone else struggling but unable to ever come out from under.



Since the advent of the atomic bomb War can simultaneously wipe out every human on the planet in an instant. No plague kills within hours, so your statement is completely false. Also even air born plagues have a range and ways of being contained. 

It's really a moot point, because Pestilence isn't a horsemen. The source material completely names another thing and because of people's lack of knowledge about what their borrowing from coupled with building upon other popular fiction they're getting it wrong over and over. 

It's one thing to decide to change a horsemen out, but you'd have to explain somewhere why you're doing it. 

I'm not going to borrow from pop culture over my sources for the same reason I'm not going to take the _Paradise Lost_ Lucifer and re-hash it. It's kind of boring and there's not any basis for it.


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## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2014)

I'm still waiting for the Ronald Soak spin-off novel myself.


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## Krory (Mar 25, 2014)

> The source material completely names another thing and because of people's lack of knowledge about what their borrowing from coupled with building upon other popular fiction they're getting it wrong over and over.



It was actually due to a mistranslation from the original text in the early 1900s and idiot theologists, where the Bible spoke of bringing plague along with the horsemen. With the wording, some debated whether the concept of plague and pestilence was being brought with the _fourth rider_ or of the _four riders_ ("They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.")

This confused people, particularly shown in Judaism, since it was in a Jewish Encyclopedia where the rider of the white horse was introduced as Pestilence in 1916. The same year was when Vicente Blasco Ib??ez's _The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse_ adopted the same translation, in which he states that the horseman of Pestilence carried arrows poisoned with the germs of every disease.

Though I suppose you'd probably prefer them to go with the inane concept that the first rider is the Antichrist.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 25, 2014)

*Breathes in deeply*

Oh! How I missed thee peace!

Also. I am curious about something guys. How do you design your settings?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2014)

krory said:


> It was actually due to a mistranslation from the original text in the early 1900s and idiot theologists, where the Bible spoke of bringing plague along with the horsemen. With the wording, some debated whether the concept of plague and pestilence was being brought with the _fourth rider_ or of the _four riders_ ("They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.")
> 
> This confused people, particularly shown in Judaism, since it was in a Jewish Encyclopedia where the rider of the white horse was introduced as Pestilence in 1916. The same year was when Vicente Blasco Ib??ez's _The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse_ adopted the same translation, in which he states that the horseman of Pestilence carried arrows poisoned with the germs of every disease.
> 
> Though I suppose you'd probably prefer them to go with the inane concept that the first rider is the Antichrist.



Sources for any of this? Because I can look at a Latin vulgate and it reads just like the English in phrasing. And by your own admission, the line that follows death would make more sense if any horsemen was over angry animals. 

A crown doesn't have shit to do with plagues to my knowledge either. Conquest does make since. Some interpretations name the first rider as Christ or the anti-christ, but there's no mention of pestilence until the early 1900s.


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## Krory (Mar 25, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> *Breathes in deeply*
> 
> Oh! How I missed thee peace!



Peace would be a nice change of pace if some folks just stopped vying for the opportunity to try and taut a superior intellect and act better than others... I remember the days when people could be supportive of each other.

I guess trying to be cool has taken precedence over that.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 25, 2014)

Nowadays, that's all the Internet is used for by most people. I miss the old days when Internet was rare (2005-2010) and people were nice to each other.


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## Krory (Mar 25, 2014)

But how are you supposed to show off how cool you are if you aren't a smart aleck and brat to everyone?

Disrespect these days is like wearing your baseball cap sideways in the 90s. It's a badge of coolness.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2014)

krory said:


> Peace would be a nice change of pace if some folks just stopped vying for the opportunity to try and taut a superior intellect and act better than others... I remember the days when people could be supportive of each other.
> 
> I guess trying to be cool has taken precedence over that.



Oddly enough you didn't say anything about the person I commented back to who acted like others weren't creative enough to use writing prompts. I suspect that your attitude has more with you being a small petty person than with you trying to teach others lessons in internet manners.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 25, 2014)

krory said:


> But how are you supposed to show off how cool you are if you aren't a smart aleck and brat to everyone?
> 
> Disrespect these days is like wearing your baseball cap sideways in the 90s. It's a badge of coolness.



Yeah. Indeed it is. It really amazes me how low Internet has fallen.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oddly enough you didn't say anything about the person I commented back to who acted like others weren't creative enough to use writing prompts. I suspect that your attitude has more with you being a small petty person than with you trying to teach others lessons in internet manners.



And I break the possible argument now. I've had enough drama to last a century. I am truly pissed that I am in bed while my friends are at the Mar del Plata beachfront 

Stupid cold... At least it'll wear off soon and I'll go take a deep bath away from the NF drama (it doesn't even deserve being called dramedy).

So, back to the topic, how do you build your settings/world?


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## Risyth (Mar 25, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> *Breathes in deeply*
> 
> Oh! How I missed thee peace!
> 
> Also. I am curious about something guys. How do you design your settings?



Is there a tool for good setting design? If so, it'd be great to know. I use SCV for my characters, though.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 25, 2014)

^ 


As in "how do you create them".


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 25, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Sources for any of this?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2014)

Try again, it speculates but doesn't give that as the reason. I knew that already. I think part of my research for something I've been writing for over a decade would take me past the Wikipedia page.

How about you let Krory defend his own bullshit. What I'm saying actually makes sense (the crown, for instance). So let's not let him hide behind anyone's skirts and stand up for himself if he's so righteous defending the huddling masses from me like he acts.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 25, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Try again, it speculates but doesn't give that as the reason. I knew that already.


The Wikipedia article has a source for each of the points, no?
Is there a particular point with which you are disagreeing?


> I think part of my research for something I've been writing for over a decade would take me past the Wikipedia page.


That's lovely, dear.


> So let's not let him hide behind anyone's skirts and stand up for himself if he's so righteous defending the huddling masses from me like he acts.


You asked a question. I provided an answer.
I'm not trying to hide anyone.

Take the e-drama elsewhere. It doesn't belong in this thread.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> The Wikipedia article has a source for each of the points, no?
> Is there a particular point with which you are disagreeing?
> That's lovely, dear.
> You asked a question. I provided an answer.
> ...



But it's not a source, it has some brief speculation, but he's stating these things as factual information.


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## Krory (Mar 25, 2014)

You stated yours as a fact. You _factually_ stated there is _no_ reason for it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2014)

krory said:


> You stated yours as a fact. You _factually_ stated there is _no_ reason for it.


I didn't create a reality I followed the source material that's given to me instead of pop culture tropes that come from nowhere.

I'm not here to run shit. I'm just stating facts.


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## Monark (Mar 26, 2014)

CTK, you just told me you aren't bickering in this thread, yet here you are bickering again. This is an internet forum, mate, not a trial. You don't need to defend your honor against everything anyone says to you. 

as for you, matt...i mean really. There's no call for disrespect simply because you disagree with or dislike someone- this isn't the blender. i expect better of you.

However,



krory said:


> Since you live in your own reality, I rejected yours and substituted my own.



Adam Savage is a hero.


----------



## Furkhit Singh (Mar 26, 2014)

Hi guys, just noticed this thread and thought it'd be cool to talk. I had an idea years ago for a book, I just wish I could gather up the courage to write the damn thing.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 26, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Nowadays, that's all the Internet is used for by most people. I miss the old days when Internet was rare (2005-2010) and people were nice to each other.



I came on the internet in 2004. Some of the first things I saw were nazi jokes, guro, and revenge porn.  People were never nice to each other.



Furkhit Singh said:


> Hi guys, just noticed this thread and thought it'd be cool to talk. I had an idea years ago for a book, I just wish I could gather up the courage to write the damn thing.



Just start writing. Anything, now. Damn the consequences. Fear of the first step is stupid.


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## Furkhit Singh (Mar 26, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Just start writing. Anything, now. Damn the consequences. Fear of the first step is stupid.



Oh it's not the first step that scares me. 

It's the mindnumbing confusion I get trying to work out a plot to it. 

I just have a premise I love, but writing a fictional documentary set in the future isn't going to work... I think. 

I'll get back on that one, must think it over.


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## lokoxDZz (Mar 26, 2014)

Furkhit Singh said:


> Oh it's not the first step that scares me.
> 
> It's the mindnumbing confusion I get trying to work out a plot to it.
> 
> ...



Just do it,don't think it will not work,just do it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 26, 2014)

Furkhit Singh said:


> Oh it's not the first step that scares me.
> 
> It's the mindnumbing confusion I get trying to work out a plot to it.
> 
> ...



Do something.  Write things.  Forget about if it makes sense, or is going anywhere, or has any plot.  Post your things you've written, and we'll talk about it and work it out.  If there's something that doesn't work, we'll fix it.  If there's something that works, you've finally get a wedge to start working from.  You can't lose unless you let yourself.


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## crazymtf (Mar 28, 2014)

Editing two books at once is tough, especially with two jobs  Not to mention the more I edit the more I want to just write the next book


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## Risyth (Mar 28, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I came on the internet in 2004. Some of the first things I saw were nazi jokes, guro, and revenge porn.  People were never nice to each other.


I think he meant '93-2000. 



Sleipnyr said:


> ^
> 
> 
> As in "how do you create them".



Hmm...Google Earth.


----------



## Furkhit Singh (Mar 28, 2014)

Ok so far, I have a rough clue of how the story ends.

I guess I'll have to work backwards. But it ends with Humanity willingly submitting themselves to the rule of a higher robotic structure/power they created.

The robotic structure is shaped like the largest willow tree you could imagine, however it's made of a shimmering metal. It's so large it _naturally_ generates a small localised weather system and lightning around itselfs which it uses to fuel itself.

The purpose of this creation is to replace and upgrade the internet.

Rather than keep humanities information and knowledge stored by writing it. It's built to store humanities memories for future generations.

By tapping into that humans can actually "channel" once dead humans to use their knowledge at will.

------------------------
------------------------

As I said trying to work out what to do with that is difficult. It just confuses me everytime.


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## Risyth (Mar 28, 2014)

*The purpose of this creation is to replace and upgrade the internet.
*

Lol'd...idk why, though, it sounds cool. Maybe it's a good thing.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 28, 2014)

Furkhit Singh said:


> Hi guys, just noticed this thread and thought it'd be cool to talk. I had an idea years ago for a book, I just wish I could gather up the courage to write the damn thing.



Well, for first step...

1. Light clothing: Be as comfy as possible. No normal clothing for writing... Ever...

2. Favorite snack: Go on and say this doesn't helps you. I can smell yours from miles.

3. Cool temperature if you're in a hot climate or mild warmth for cold weather. Your mind needs to be warm but not overheated. I couldn't write to save my life without air conditioning in the tropics, and would leave the window only mildly open back at Bar?a.

4. Open the document and go back to the scene you hold as the fondest... If you've fantasized an scene and grown particularly fond of it, this is what you should start by writing... Don't worry about style or if it makes sense. When you're done, go on and fix it as you see fit.

5. Write more of the scenes you have and once you think you have enough, try to bridge them in the way you feel your characters would be most comfortable with.



Lord Yu said:


> I came on the internet in 2004. Some of the first things I saw were nazi jokes, guro, and revenge porn.  People were never nice to each other.



Well, those were the dark corners. However, most of the activity heavy areas like deviantART where places were people praised you for being good or gave ya a hand when ya needed it most.



Furkhit Singh said:


> Oh it's not the first step that scares me.
> 
> It's the mindnumbing confusion I get trying to work out a plot to it.
> 
> ...



Throw the word "nonsense" out of the window. THIS IS FICTION! The abode of nonsense! Stop worrying about whether it'd work or not and do it the way you see fit. YOU are the artist. YOU decide what's next... Remember, it is your world and (unless your religion says otherwise) YOU are that world's god.

In another words, stop worrying whether it works or not, and worry about whether you like it or not. Writing is a way for us to say what WE want and fuck the rest of the world. If they agree with me, then it's all good, but we are writers! We don't write for the people! We write for ourselves!

Also... Going back to the theme I left: I create my worlds by taking this world and thinking about what it has that fits and doesn't fit my vision. Double standards, specific laws, gender roles and expectations... Aesthetics of others, weather patterns, cultures, territories, surroundings... and so on...

Eventually, they are replaced and taken over by shit I actually like... If it doesn't makes sense, I begin scrawling possible explanations and research similar stuff in RL... Then I begin to put those areas where the scenes happen in the world I've created and see where they'd fit best. If such an area doesn't exists, I create it and try to search the locale where it'd fit.

As for out of this world... I search otherwordly pictures of the theme I like for a certain locale and then blend it in with a fairy tale like description.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I think he meant '93-2000.



Something Awful was founded in 99.  I do believe Stormfront before that. The internet was never nice.


Anyway, ideas up, productivity down.


----------



## Furkhit Singh (Mar 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *The purpose of this creation is to replace and upgrade the internet.
> *
> 
> Lol'd...idk why, though, it sounds cool. Maybe it's a good thing.



I just had a vision of Humanity getting to the point where they decided that the internet was a middle ground they didn't need.

Just have a system you could integrate into for details.

It'd have it's only matrixy style forum though. But I'm loathe to go down the matrix route. (And it's that more than anything which gives me the biggest headaches.)


----------



## Risyth (Mar 28, 2014)

> Something Awful was founded in 99. I do believe Stormfront before that. The internet was never nice.


What' was wrong with Something Awful in '99? Lol, but fine: '93-'98.

^Ooh, you're going to be writing matrices in your story too? Maybe we can write them together!


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## Nordstrom (Mar 28, 2014)

It wasn't _nice_ but it was _nicer_...


----------



## Risyth (Mar 30, 2014)

Well, at least this site is nicer than a few years ago.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Well, those were the dark corners. However, most of the activity heavy areas like deviantART where places were people praised you for being good or gave ya a hand when ya needed it most.



That's just myopia and nostalgia.   You may have had a nice pleasant slice of the internet where everyone was nice to you but all around everywhere there were people trashing and trolling, yes even on DeviantArt. The world seemed nice and wonderful because you were young and didn't know better. Now you're  growing older and you're beginning to see what was always there just beyond your idealistic rosetinted vision. 

Nostalgia is poisonous, it makes us forget the lessons of pain.


----------



## Risyth (Mar 30, 2014)

> That's just myopia and nostalgia. You may have had a nice pleasant slice of the internet where everyone was nice to you but all around everywhere there were people trashing and trolling, yes even on DeviantArt. The world seemed nice and wonderful because you were young and didn't know better. Now you're growing older and you're beginning to see what was always there just beyond your idealistic rosetinted vision.
> 
> Nostalgia is poisonous, it makes us forget the lessons of pain.



That sounds like you mixed some of your story in it....


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

Not in the least.


----------



## Nordstrom (Mar 30, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> That's just myopia and nostalgia.   You may have had a nice pleasant slice of the internet where everyone was nice to you but all around everywhere there were people trashing and trolling, yes even on DeviantArt. The world seemed nice and wonderful because you were young and didn't know better. Now you're  growing older and you're beginning to see what was always there just beyond your idealistic rosetinted vision.
> 
> Nostalgia is poisonous, it makes us forget the lessons of pain.



I don't feel so. I thought just like I do now and everyone went "b-but... Isn't that like risky?" or "Wow, that so cool!" and "Yeah, I could use a hand in here!". Now it's all "trolololol dumbshit! Go back to Elementary school" or "You know shit about what you're talking about" and the like.

Then again, the Internet was smaller back then, there weren't nearly as many bastards in the web and e-bullying was rare in a site chock full of mods. Now they've spread thin.

Though this site could've been worse in the past.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I don't feel so.



Exactly, feeling. That's the problem right there.  Nothing new under the sun. All that changes are the tools and our awareness of things. You may not remember them or hell seen the more blatant examples but it did exist and in great force.

Anyway, we're way off topic. I think I've given up on making my antagonist traditional sexual.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 30, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Exactly, feeling. That's the problem right there.  Nothing new under the sun. All that changes are the tools and our awareness of things. You may not remember them or hell seen the more blatant examples but it did exist and in great force.



Then it did not affect me. I don't remember insults for my way of thinking into the past. Only praise or some debating (not Kaiba tier debating, debating as in "why do you think so"... "Oh, good, but from the way I see it..." "All right then"


----------



## Risyth (Mar 30, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Exactly, feeling. That's the problem right there.  Nothing new under the sun. All that changes are the tools and our awareness of things. You may not remember them or hell seen the more blatant examples but it did exist and in great force.
> 
> *Anyway, we're way off topic. I think I've given up on making my antagonist traditional sexual.*



What's that even mean?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

I don't quite know how to put it into words yet and I'm too lazy to display it visually.


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## Risyth (Mar 30, 2014)

Well, Palpatine wasn't "traditional sexual," if that's a good comparison.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

What I mean is my antagonist is a sexy woman who has a specialty power that takes advantage of lust. But I don't really think I want to go really sexual with her. What I'm saying is I'm not going all succubus with her but I'm just turning it into part of her spectrum, a powerful part but not something that touches every facet of her character.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 30, 2014)

So gay/lesbian antagonist? Good. I have good and bad guys of straight and LGBT sexual orientation.

Edit: Well, I am really confused now :S


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

No, she is pretty straight. Though she can make perfectly straight women fall for her.

I think I should rephrase. I mean as opposed to overt sexuality covert sexuality.


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## Risyth (Mar 30, 2014)

Have you tried going the Sensui route?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

I'm not talking about sexual orientation. I mean the other meaning of sexuality.


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## Monark (Mar 30, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> That's just myopia and nostalgia.   You may have had a nice pleasant slice of the internet where everyone was nice to you but all around everywhere there were people trashing and trolling, yes even on DeviantArt. The world seemed nice and wonderful because you were young and didn't know better. Now you're  growing older and you're beginning to see what was always there just beyond your idealistic rosetinted vision.
> 
> Nostalgia is poisonous, it makes us forget the lessons of pain.



that's a rather depressing outlook, alex

i'm not sure i wholly agree with it.

maturity is the mark of those able to balance the painful memories with the happy ones.


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## Risyth (Mar 30, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm not talking about sexual orientation. I mean the other meaning of sexuality.



No, I mean the multi-personality route in general could help if I'm understanding right.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 30, 2014)

Alright boys! Time to play "Boy or Girl?" with one of my characters. Guess who he is (they are the same character in different styles...


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

Don't really think this is the thread for that. I think we want to be moving away from visuals. CTK made that point several times.


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## Nordstrom (Mar 30, 2014)

Then we need a character bio thread. But I won't make it if there's no push for it.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2014)

You can make one.


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## Krory (Mar 30, 2014)

I remember when vampires used to be "covert sexual."

When things revolved more around an unnatural charisma, an alluring aura, and subtle suggestions and sensuality instead of now, "Look at my sexy abs/tits, want to fuck me?"


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## Nordstrom (Mar 30, 2014)

^
You'd call that "class" if anything. Classiness is indeed sexy...


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## Risyth (Mar 30, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Alright boys! Time to play "Boy or Girl?" with one of my characters. Guess who he is (they are the same character in different styles...



He looks like a super saiyan Sara Ringwalt. 

And if the post is that much of an issue (visuals are off-topic in a general thread?), you can always...talk about him in it. Or ask questions about your progress on him.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 2, 2014)

If you guys have read the prologue to my book (to which I've gotten lazy with the editting...), I got around to drawing the Sovereigns. So if you want to know what they actually look like, here you go: 



Top Left: Cantorium, the Sovereign of the Underworld (Formerly the Overworld)
Top Right: Cryptorium, the Sovereign of the Overworld (Formerly the Middle World)
Bottom Left: Amordius, the Sovereign of the Middle World (Formerly the Underworld)
Bottom Right: Stratorius, the Sovereign of the Heavenly World


@Sleipnyr
I'm good with a character bio thread.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2014)

Don't really see the point of it but...


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## Risyth (Apr 2, 2014)

You guys asked for it, really....


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 3, 2014)

> I've been a member of the /r/writing[1] community for quite a while, and I've seen most of the usual posts: what writing software are you using, the advantages of self-publishing vs. traditional publishing, how to write a query letter, you name it. Anyone that's been here for a while knows the usual routine. What I haven't seen a lot of however are self-posts (and Lord knows we receive more than enough blog posts and other click bait) about what editors are looking for in submissions. So, rather than write another blogspam post and link you to it, I thought perhaps folks would find it useful to see a self-post from an actual editor about what sort of things we're really on the lookout for in the submissions we receive. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to review them. A little about myself: I'm the editor-in-chief of Bastion Science Fiction Magazine. You've probably seen our calls for submissions or slush readers, or our sponsored link (as of yesterday) at the top of the sub for our first issue.
> When I'm not working on the magazine, I'm writing and (traditionally) publishing my own short stories in various markets. I'm also a pretty voracious consumer of other short story markets, such as Clarkesworld, Apex, and Lightspeed. I've been around the scene for a while. Now that you know just a little bit about me, here's some thoughts on what we usually receive:
> 
> Just about every market that you submit to will have a submissions page, where they'll list what it is they want - be it format, genre, word count, you name it. Before you submit to a market, make sure you read that page carefully. Then read it again. Don't assume that if you're about to submit something, even if it doesn't quite match up to what the market states in their guidelines, that "it'll be okay." That's a really quick way to count yourself out. When the guidelines say they want 2,000 to 3,000 word stories, they mean it. When we receive anything outside of our word count limits, it's an immediate reject. Do not pass go, do not review story, reject. Editors/slush readers just don't have the time to go through a story when the author can't be bothered to submit within the guidelines.
> ...





krory said:


> I remember when vampires used to be "covert sexual."
> 
> When things revolved more around an unnatural charisma, an alluring aura, and subtle suggestions and sensuality instead of now, "Look at my sexy abs/tits, want to fuck me?"



And I remember when the Charleston was the big dance. Times change because people change and people's idea of what's arousing or titillating will change. Our society is sexually repressed in the US, but it's less repressed than it used to be and people are louder and more out their with their sexuality. 

It's the logical connection to make that literature would follow the times. 



Risyth said:


> You guys asked for it, really....



We had something like this on another forum, instead of bios it was basically this thing where you posted in the voice of your character and people asked you questions to help you flesh the character out. 

It worked well until someone wanted to be a dick and basically try to prove a character wasn't plausible instead of helping to fix holes in the character. But it was generally helpful and for people writing in first person it might help them form a voice being conversational with the character.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 3, 2014)

I probably shouldn't have mentioned that. I still don't have a full idea of what I wanted to say. But then again this thread is for development.


----------



## Krory (Apr 3, 2014)

Development? What is this word, it is foreign to me.


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## Monark (Apr 3, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> And I remember when the Charleston was the big dance. Times change because people change and people's idea of what's arousing or titillating will change. Our society is sexually repressed in the US, but it's less repressed than it used to be and people are louder and more out their with their sexuality.
> 
> It's the logical connection to make that literature would follow the times.



true, but there is a difference between the progressive change we see over generations and the artificial change induced by entertainment media.

sex sells. it is everywhere in everything, and i would argue that it is directed at teenagers more so than any other demographic. they've become desensitized to it. subsequently, the horror-fantasy literary genre (or at least the teen wolf/vampire sub-genre) has become increasingly and graphically sexual in order to retain its readership.


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## Risyth (Apr 3, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We had something like this on another forum, instead of bios it was basically this thing where you posted in the voice of your character and people asked you questions to help you flesh the character out.
> 
> It worked well until someone wanted to be a dick and basically try to prove a character wasn't plausible instead of helping to fix holes in the character. But it was generally helpful and for people writing in first person it might help them form a voice being conversational with the character.



What forum was this? Was it that terrible Absolute Write?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 3, 2014)

Monark said:


> true, but there is a difference between the progressive change we see over generations and the artificial change induced by entertainment media.
> 
> sex sells. it is everywhere in everything, and i would argue that it is directed at teenagers more so than any other demographic. they've become desensitized to it. subsequently, the horror-fantasy literary genre (or at least the teen wolf/vampire sub-genre) has become increasingly and graphically sexual in order to retain its readership.



A large amount of what's in those books is rape. Let's not beat around the bush. When someone pins you to the bed and says "I could kill you right now" that's not erotic unless there's a sense of play for both parties.

Paranormal Romance has kind of tried to go for tge danger is sexy to rape and abuse is sexy. Not all of them have, but it's common.

Even then sexuality is more open. Things can be subtle in an openly sexual way. It's a line you have to walk. But vampires kind of reflect what's seen as attractive and have for a while. 



Risyth said:


> What forum was this? Was it that terrible Absolute Write?



Absolute Write is actually one of the better forums. But it was a place called Writer's Beat that I grew to hate because a few large personalities were allowed to be abusive (both sexually and verbally) to members. More than one girl I knew there was threatened by a writer with being unable to get in the industry unless she slept with him or sent nude pictures. 

And I was banned because this same author clicked on a rick roll link I posted and was too stupid to close the browser. He unplugged his computer (losing work as he claimed) out of fear.

So I was permanently banned.

Tyrael and the old member Amnesia were members too. Amnesia won their writing contest one month and was in their little magazine.


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## Risyth (Apr 3, 2014)

I've been to and hate Absolute Write, and I've transcendent that--but the site you came from sounds terrible. 

Well, actually...aside from the "sexual" aspect of the harassment, it reminds me of the OBD in 2010-2011.  

Anyway, no good writer should rely on such sites to get published.


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## crazymtf (Apr 5, 2014)

With my new book "Sparks" I'm going to really try and get local help. I've contacted a few Radio Stations/Papers in hopes to get the word around. One Radio station said they'd be up for it at the end of August. A paper said they'd like to release a article next month if they like what they read since it's close to other superhero movies (Spider-man I'm assuming). I'm excited, but man, I feel like all my spare time goes to writing or finding ways to expose my stuff haha.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

Good luck and hope it goes down well and fast!


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## Monark (Apr 5, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> With my new book "Sparks" I'm going to really try and get local help. I've contacted a few Radio Stations/Papers in hopes to get the word around. One Radio station said they'd be up for it at the end of August. A paper said they'd like to release a article next month if they like what they read since it's close to other superhero movies (Spider-man I'm assuming). I'm excited, but man, I feel like all my spare time goes to writing or finding ways to expose my stuff haha.



that's the way it is for most authors, i'm afraid


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## crazymtf (Apr 5, 2014)

True. Least I'm working towards my dream since I was a kid haha. Even if I never make it the fact I have stuff left behind for people to read/enjoy makes me happy


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## Monark (Apr 5, 2014)

you and me both, mate.

one day we'll look back and find entire anthologies under our names.


----------



## Krory (Apr 5, 2014)

ITT: Monark and crazy are the biggest inspirations.  Based bros.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 5, 2014)

Anyone have a tier system made? Not necessarily for fighting, but anything, really.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 5, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Anyone have a tier system made? Not necessarily for fighting, but anything, really.



I have a rating system for relics, but it's really just based off of the one that the Catholic Church uses.

I also have a tier system for Angel that uses their wing numbers.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 5, 2014)

I have an informal tier system running for characters.  The only rigid benchmark being the top tier.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

I have a "floating" tier system which works using various series numbers going from 600 to 900, with lettered modifiers.


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## Risyth (Apr 6, 2014)

Eh, anyone wanna expand upon that? (not me lul, I got nothing)

Idk what a "floating tier system," "rigid benchmark," or "relic" is. Well, I've got a clue for the last one. Also didn't expect CTK to be catholic....


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## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

Floating means that positions may change. The weakest "600" once went on to become the strongest. Usually, there's upgrades involved. However, if a person powers up in combat but not power (able to defeat stronger tier opponents without rivaling them in power) the tier goes up. In that case, the modifier "ER" is added onto that person.

That's because in my stories, there's a difference between destructive power and mortality (the OBD doesn't seem to grasp the later). An attack may be lethal and not destructive, or highly destructive and not lethal. The tier system is used for power. An all around tier system that's being set to replace the old system near the beginning of the story takes both into account.

Short attack range
Medium attack range
Long attack range
Ultra long attack range
Hyper long attack range.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 6, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Eh, anyone wanna expand upon that? (not me lul, I got nothing)
> 
> Idk what a "floating tier system," "rigid benchmark," or "relic" is. Well, I've got a clue for the last one. Also didn't expect CTK to be catholic....



Rigid benchmark means these characters CANNOT  be beaten in a fight. Since it's not a shounen manga I don't put much stock in a tier system beyond that iron rule.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

So the opposite of what I have planned (anyone can lose a fight with a bad strategy).


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## Risyth (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Floating means that positions may change. The weakest "600" once went on to become the strongest. Usually, there's upgrades involved. However, if a person powers up in combat but not power (able to defeat stronger tier opponents without rivaling them in power) the tier goes up. In that case, the modifier "ER" is added onto that person.
> 
> That's because in my stories, there's a difference between destructive power and mortality (the OBD doesn't seem to grasp the later). An attack may be lethal and not destructive, or highly destructive and not lethal. The tier system is used for power. An all around tier system that's being set to replace the old system near the beginning of the story takes both into account.
> 
> ...



Interesting, though, Idk why I couldn't see what you meant by "floating". And is 600 the weakest on purpose? 

You wanna start an OBD discussion here? I'm game.



Lord Yu said:


> Rigid benchmark means these characters CANNOT  be beaten in a fight. Since it's not a shounen manga I don't put much stock in a tier system beyond that iron rule.



Can't be beaten?

...and I feel as if you made that term up.... Not that there's anything wrong with it--sounds cool. Why can't they be beaten, if I may ask? Gonna set up for a game of smarts?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Interesting, though, Idk why I couldn't see what you meant by "floating". And is 600 the weakest on purpose?
> 
> You wanna start an OBD discussion here? I'm game.



I made it that way because I feel people believe a battle is just "guy X beats into W because X is stronger". Floating would allow a weaker character to defeat an stronger one by using his or her power differently. For one, there's a female character, Nikki, who belongs to the 700LR series. Her rival in love belongs to series 900, but they can fight on par with each other because she's trained for combat, having been a former Royal Safety Service (safety service for important people in the place they hail from) elite, whereas her rival is a blue blooded deity whose royal heritage makes her into a veritable powerhouse, but she's not able to harness all that power for combat without risking hurting herself due to how volatile powers used in combat are. She needs to train much more to be able to wield all her power... Until then, Nikki will be able to stalemate her any time they fight (twice in Mv1, once in Mv2).

I guess you could say the tier is for "power" rather than "ability to wield it". In fact, the more power you wield, the harder it is to wield it, that's why weak characters leave the training academy relatively fast and get many thumbs up (there's no score, just a "rating" system with no requirements) while those with an immense amount of power can spend up to 10 years perfecting their powers, which is why royalty there live in seclusion (ironically, this seclusion is what builds them into ice-queen styled characters worthy of worship and looking down upon others). The main character himself is a prodigy because he's a series -900LR character who is able to harness most of his power as soon as he gets it and without the ABS support of an on-board computer to keep his available power stock in check.

That's why we have the new system phasing out the older one, since it takes into account ability to harness power. For comparison, a series 900 can easily turn Earth into snowball Earth. However, in combat, they're pretty much Bleach captain characters. Those in the lowest, the series 600 (indeed, they're the lowest on purpose) are on par with Fate/Stay Night's servants. Their onboard computer would be as powerful as legendary Noble Phantasms.

As with lethality, some attacks are highly destructive, but not lethal (a powerful wind that can blow away a house, but will only hurt opponents. Also, a beam that can cut through anything, but is the size of a pen tip). I wanted to do this because in OBD logistics, more firepower is pretty much higher odds of winning, whereas there are attacks that have less firepower, but are much more dangerous.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 7, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Can't be beaten?
> 
> ...and I feel as if you made that term up.... Not that there's anything wrong with it--sounds cool. Why can't they be beaten, if I may ask? Gonna set up for a game of smarts?



They are not meant to be fought. They are the closest things to capital G gods.  Stories involving them don't involve fighting. Those two are far too powerful for plots that involve conventional force to solve problems.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 7, 2014)

Most people differentiate between piercing and blunt attacks, and explosions, fire, ect as different damages that get different resistances.  You're allowed to get shot in the shoulder and be okay, and you can get many times, so long as it's not to the neck, and getting stabbed in the chest is game over.  If you're super durable, you can take many bullets, so long as they're not to the heart or face.  As for blunt force, you can get spin kicked through multiple walls, and pummeled, and smashed, and keep going.  Any ordinary human can be blasted by as many explosions as you can fit within a 24 hour period and continue, so long as they're not caught in the epicenter and or fiery portion of the blast, because then it's just pithy blunt force damage.  Speaking for the general fiction and movie audience.  Or rather, the accepted conventions of action, whether they make sense or not.  Ultimately, how lethal anything is is up to you, and your audience will accept anything that's consistent.  Letting the OBD determine what you consider a fresh approach to battle isn't something I would do, because the OBD is an anomaly in how they assess battles.  

Though they have to be, because they're comparing characters from separate universes that all operate under different rules, which means sacrificing what makes sense within any given universe in order to convert everything to common denominator for comparison.  So everything gets converted into generic destruction for the purpose of assessment, which means every match is determined by power scales of how good you are at generic destruction.  So by merit of creating only one category, all nuance and interplay that exists within each universe is lost.  

Which means in the OBD A Link to the Past Link can split continents with his sword, and run at mach speeds, when in universe he can't chop down a wooden door, and doesn't move faster than anyone else.  Which in turn means mach speed old men and wooden doors with the density of dark matter, and no one who played the game is going to buy that.  So you can convert a world into OBD standard format for the purposes of OBD matches, but I wouldn't be taking OBD standards, and converting them into a standard universe, because you'll get absurdities.  Subverting that approach to battle is basically a must if you're not writing DBZ the novel.  But take that with a salt packet.  If you got a good story out of doing that, then I don't really care.  The t.v. was invented by a guy who took inspiration from the rows in a potato crop, and while I wouldn't have started there, that seemed to have worked out okay for him.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 7, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I made it that way because I feel people believe a battle is just "guy X beats into W because X is stronger". Floating would allow a weaker character to defeat an stronger one by using his or her power differently. For one, there's a female character, Nikki, who belongs to the 700LR series. Her rival in love belongs to series 900, but they can fight on par with each other because she's trained for combat, having been a former Royal Safety Service (safety service for important people in the place they hail from) elite, whereas her rival is a blue blooded deity whose royal heritage makes her into a veritable powerhouse, but she's not able to harness all that power for combat without risking hurting herself due to how volatile powers used in combat are. She needs to train much more to be able to wield all her power... Until then, Nikki will be able to stalemate her any time they fight (twice in Mv1, once in Mv2).
> 
> I guess you could say the tier is for "power" rather than "ability to wield it". In fact, the more power you wield, the harder it is to wield it, that's why weak characters leave the training academy relatively fast and get many thumbs up (there's no score, just a "rating" system with no requirements) while those with an immense amount of power can spend up to 10 years perfecting their powers, which is why royalty there live in seclusion (ironically, this seclusion is what builds them into ice-queen styled characters worthy of worship and looking down upon others). The main character himself is a prodigy because he's a series -900LR character who is able to harness most of his power as soon as he gets it and without the ABS support of an on-board computer to keep his available power stock in check.
> 
> ...



I would strongly suggest reading at least the first two Mistborn books since the large fights that are worth a damn are all in there, but there are a lot of things Sanderson does that keep the characters from just blasting away at one another. And really the techniques all stem from a simple set of skills that when applied with intelligence make for really good fights. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Most people differentiate between piercing and blunt attacks, and explosions, fire, ect as different damages that get different resistances.  You're allowed to get shot in the shoulder and be okay, and you can get many times, so long as it's not to the neck, and getting stabbed in the chest is game over.  If you're super durable, you can take many bullets, so long as they're not to the heart or face.  As for blunt force, you can get spin kicked through multiple walls, and pummeled, and smashed, and keep going.  Any ordinary human can be blasted by as many explosions as you can fit within a 24 hour period and continue, so long as they're not caught in the epicenter and or fiery portion of the blast, because then it's just pithy blunt force damage.  Speaking for the general fiction and movie audience.  Or rather, the accepted conventions of action, whether they make sense or not.  Ultimately, how lethal anything is is up to you, and your audience will accept anything that's consistent.  Letting the OBD determine what you consider a fresh approach to battle isn't something I would do, because the OBD is an anomaly in how they assess battles.
> 
> Though they have to be, because they're comparing characters from separate universes that all operate under different rules, which means sacrificing what makes sense within any given universe in order to convert everything to common denominator for comparison.  So everything gets converted into generic destruction for the purpose of assessment, which means every match is determined by power scales of how good you are at generic destruction.  So by merit of creating only one category, all nuance and interplay that exists within each universe is lost.
> 
> Which means in the OBD A Link to the Past Link can split continents with his sword, and run at mach speeds, when in universe he can't chop down a wooden door, and doesn't move faster than anyone else.  Which in turn means mach speed old men and wooden doors with the density of dark matter, and no one who played the game is going to buy that.  So you can convert a world into OBD standard format for the purposes of OBD matches, but I wouldn't be taking OBD standards, and converting them into a standard universe, because you'll get absurdities.  Subverting that approach to battle is basically a must if you're not writing DBZ the novel.  But take that with a salt packet.  If you got a good story out of doing that, then I don't really care.  The t.v. was invented by a guy who took inspiration from the rows in a potato crop, and while I wouldn't have started there, that seemed to have worked out okay for him.



I didn't realize the ODB had these odd rules, it seems silly to add extra ability to things that have it. The reason why the cross universe fights are kind of dumb in my opinion is because the universe the character exists in has a set of rules and to drag them out of that world means the rules either have to follow them or be changed and that change could change them or change wherever you're putting them. 

Even what you said about the acceptable things from movies aren't going to usually hold up in books because when described out it can read as kind of silly.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 7, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Most people differentiate between piercing and blunt attacks, and explosions, fire, ect as different damages that get different resistances.  You're allowed to get shot in the shoulder and be okay, and you can get many times, so long as it's not to the neck, and getting stabbed in the chest is game over.  If you're super durable, you can take many bullets, so long as they're not to the heart or face.  As for blunt force, you can get spin kicked through multiple walls, and pummeled, and smashed, and keep going.  Any ordinary human can be blasted by as many explosions as you can fit within a 24a hour period and continue, so long as they're not caught in the epicenter and or fiery portion of the blast, because then it's just pithy blunt force damage.  Speaking for the general fiction and movie audience.  Or rather, the accepted conventions of action, whether they make sense or not.  Ultimately, how lethal anything is is up to you, and your audience will accept anything that's consistent.  Letting the OBD determine what you consider a fresh approach to battle isn't something I would do, because the OBD is an anomaly in how they assess battles.



The OBD has always been iffy, especially with pixel-originated calcs, but they generally have some degree of logic to whatever assessments they make.

As for the rest of what you said...well, I was going to disagree until you said "it's up to you". Though, consistency doesn't always equal acceptance in any scenario.



Lord Yu said:


> They are not meant to be fought. They are the closest things to capital G gods.  Stories involving them don't involve fighting. Those two are far too powerful for plots that involve conventional force to solve problems.


That's a singular, capital G. 

If they're not fighting, what's their involvement in the plot if any? Overseers? 



Sleipnyr said:


> I made it that way because I feel people believe a battle is just "guy X beats into W because X is stronger". Floating would allow a weaker character to defeat an stronger one by using his or her power differently. For one, there's a female character, Nikki, who belongs to the 700LR series. Her rival in love belongs to series 900, but they can fight on par with each other because she's trained for combat, having been a former Royal Safety Service (safety service for important people in the place they hail from) elite, whereas her rival is a blue blooded deity whose royal heritage makes her into a veritable powerhouse, but she's not able to harness all that power for combat without risking hurting herself due to how volatile powers used in combat are. She needs to train much more to be able to wield all her power... Until then, Nikki will be able to stalemate her any time they fight (twice in Mv1, once in Mv2).
> 
> I guess you could say the tier is for "power" rather than "ability to wield it". In fact, the more power you wield, the harder it is to wield it, that's why weak characters leave the training academy relatively fast and get many thumbs up (there's no score, just a "rating" system with no requirements) while those with an immense amount of power can spend up to 10 years perfecting their powers, which is why royalty there live in seclusion (ironically, this seclusion is what builds them into ice-queen styled characters worthy of worship and looking down upon others). The main character himself is a prodigy because he's a series -900LR character who is able to harness most of his power as soon as he gets it and without the ABS support of an on-board computer to keep his available power stock in check.




I see what you mean. Control of energy vs amount of energy (active/passive). From an energetic standpoint, of course. As cool as that story description sounded without my being spoiled, though, I don't think that general concept's a relatively new idea by any stretch. It's, I guess, more of a shame, then, that the OBD hasn't really considered it. It really is what a good fight should aim for (now, are you willing to have your main character die?)


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 7, 2014)

Their role is complicated to explain without spoiling. They are both involved and uninvolved in the proceedings.


----------



## KaiserSenpai (Apr 7, 2014)

I'm in the middle of a writing a fight novel then making it a manga.

Satan hilf Uns

Basic preview: 

Several nations are training this generation of kids, after years of the cruel possessed 
animals killing them they finally fought back - hard enough to make the fighting a sport for all to 
love and enjoy, and fully focus on. Fighting easy creatures and each other like gods, completely peaceful - right?

Posting all four chapters would be too much, each chapter is 10-15 pages tops. I will begin the manga after chapter 10, for now it's a light novel with anime style characters.

All chapters and characters can be found at all locations but expect for twitter below.

Tumblr: ThisIsAnRPS
Twitter: ThisIsAnRPS
SHU Forum: shu.yooco.org
FB: Kaiser Senpai
Wattpad: GayEclipse
Deviantart: Kenny1315

Chapters are being uploaded weekly, chapter 04 actually just came out not more than an hour ago. Soon new pictures will also be released!


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 7, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I didn't realize the ODB had these odd rules, it seems silly to add extra ability to things that have it. The reason why the cross universe fights are kind of dumb in my opinion is because the universe the character exists in has a set of rules and to drag them out of that world means the rules either have to follow them or be changed and that change could change them or change wherever you're putting them.
> 
> Even what you said about the acceptable things from movies aren't going to usually hold up in books because when described out it can read as kind of silly.



I'm not an expert in the OBD, and I don't ever post there, simply because I'm not interested in inter-universe fights either.  I have gone to their wiki, and I looked at their list of rules.  They have things like generalized energy, so that ki, chakra, spirit energy, chi, and whatnot is all equalized so that you can use genjutsu on people outside of Naruto, and other things that make sense.



Risyth said:


> The OBD has always been iffy, especially with pixel-originated calcs, but they generally have some degree of logic to whatever assessments they make.
> 
> As for the rest of what you said...well, I was going to disagree until you said "it's up to you". Though, consistency doesn't always equal acceptance in any scenario.



The OBD follows a logical train.  I just think their line of reasoning doesn't belong outside the OBD.  Just like I think the BD isn't the best has it's places to be, and places to not be.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 7, 2014)

Risyth said:


> The OBD has always been iffy, especially with pixel-originated calcs, but they generally have some degree of logic to whatever assessments they make.
> 
> As for the rest of what you said...well, I was going to disagree until you said "it's up to you". Though, consistency doesn't always equal acceptance in any scenario.
> 
> ...



I know it isn't new at all. However, I wanted to do this since I didn't think things should be this way having watched attacks that while lethal, were not destructive. Yeah, it's a shame the OBD never considered this, a fight is much better when the underdog can surpass the main character with quick thinking and creativity.

As with main character dying... That's actually impossible as he's the jet fuel that fuels the thing. However, to say he needs to be the hero all the time would be insane. For one, after the first three books (arcs), the main cast gets replaced by fresher, new characters and even the main character's gender changes. While this doesn't means the old cast was killed off or put on a bus, it does mean they pull back for a relay.

After the last story arc, the old characters, along the new characters introduced during the two arcs, get a chance to rest and lay back, develop, become stronger while the parties involved in the situations of the three arcs digest all new information and replenish forces. The arc ends with an epilogue in a far distant location from where we last see the main cast's victory and introduces elements that were highlighted but not dug in during the arcs in a more obvious way while introducing the new main character, who has been unknowingly affected by the main characters' exploits, in a cliffhanger.

Book 4 eventually starts by picking up just where we left, and changes from the omniscient epilogue narration into the female main character's POV. Also, while both casts and their stories are separate, the new cast will affect the older one just like how the older cast affected the newer one, which will affect them as soon as we go back to them and they will meet at some point after it ends.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 7, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'm not an expert in the OBD, and I don't ever post there, simply because I'm not interested in inter-universe fights either.  I have gone to their wiki, and I looked at their list of rules.  They have things like generalized energy, so that ki, chakra, spirit energy, chi, and whatnot is all equalized so that you can use genjutsu on people outside of Naruto, and other things that make sense.


I forgot they had a wiki and all of that, but I get what you mean. The OBD has created it's own kind of world for these fights to take place and it's best that world exist separately from all others. 



Sleipnyr said:


> I know it isn't new at all. However, I wanted to do this since I didn't think things should be this way having watched attacks that while lethal, were not destructive. Yeah, it's a shame the OBD never considered this, a fight is much better when the underdog can surpass the main character with quick thinking and creativity.
> 
> As with main character dying... That's actually impossible as he's the jet fuel that fuels the thing. However, to say he needs to be the hero all the time would be insane. For one, after the first three books (arcs), the main cast gets replaced by fresher, new characters and even the main character's gender changes. While this doesn't means the old cast was killed off or put on a bus, it does mean they pull back for a relay.
> 
> ...


The Outskirt's Battledome isn't about making the fights more interesting, it's about match ups and who would win. What would make a better fight shouldn't enter into it. If Silver Surfer fights Naruto he will end Naruto and there shouldn't really be much in the way of interesting to be had.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 7, 2014)

I banned myself from the OBD years ago. It did weird things to my thought processes.  My stories aren't usually fight focused so this whole thing is weird to think about. There are some super powered showdowns but they...lost my train of thought.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 7, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I banned myself from the OBD years ago. It did weird things to my thought processes.  My stories aren't usually fight focused so this whole thing is weird to think about. There are some super powered showdowns but they...lost my train of thought.



This is kind of my reason for dropping most of the anime watching/manga reading. It was causing my plotting and idea structure to be all wrong and terrible. When I had some distance from all of that my writing just got better.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 8, 2014)

Anime has less effect on my plots and more on my dumb jokes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 8, 2014)

It doesn't matter what anime I watch, because my influences are dominated by video games.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 8, 2014)

Mine too, I still think of game mechanics. Also some segments of my stories play out like dungeons.


----------



## Krory (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay, so here's a very far out there question for you future novelists...

Under the condition that you "make it big" (or if anyone really picks up on your work), does the impending idea of a "fandom" intimidate or frighten you in some regards? Namely, shipping fans.

I'm sure some of us have done in the past, but when you think about your own creations in term of setting, story, and characters, does the concept that people can or may ship your characters together bother you? "Pairing the spares," crack pairings, or worse, crossing sexuality borders (example: if you have a strictly homosexual male character, some fan deciding to ship him with a female character because, in their mind, "it makes sense.")?

Or Hell, we can get into the "AU" fanfiction. Would you pull an Anne Rice and banish all fanfiction of your work from existence? Or have you "accidentally" misplaced a fuck to give?


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 8, 2014)

I've misplaced a fuck to give. I tend to not think too much about what abominations my hypothetical fans might create. Whatever they are is beyond me and really stupid to think about.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2014)

The effort that it would take to stop them from doing the pairing is pretty much impossible to reach. Anne Rice can't stop people from posting stuff based on her characters, though if anyone needs to be stopped it's probably her. 

People are going to make pairings and do little annoying things with your characters and some of the time they will be awful, but there might be some out there that get everything nearly right and those people are worth it. There might also be concepts that they cook up that are so epic that they rival the original story. I love fan fiction, so I don't see a reason to stop them, nor do I think they're doing anything wrong. 

Also, these kind of swaps seem to happen less with stories that are more inclusive of different types of people and types of couples. 

I actually look forward to the fan art.


----------



## Krory (Apr 8, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I've misplaced a fuck to give. I tend to not think too much about what abominations my hypothetical fans might create. Whatever they are is beyond me and really stupid to think about.



'tis a good outlook to have.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 8, 2014)

My OBD complaint is more about them taking brute force or underhanded methods as the only offensive techniques. They don't distinguish lethal from destructive. A sword is more destructive than a bullet, but guns kill people far easier.

Anime, manga and JRPG's influence only the aesthetic and scenery. Anything actually said and done fluctuates according to the story.



krory said:


> Okay, so here's a very far out there question for you future novelists...
> 
> Under the condition that you "make it big" (or if anyone really picks up on your work), does the impending idea of a "fandom" intimidate or frighten you in some regards? Namely, shipping fans.
> 
> ...



Not really. The only thing that creeps me out is making characters do things they'd never do (I'd feel offended if they made a reverse harem fanfic with my work) so I'd try to put some disclaimer about fanfictions, fanart and cosplay of a certain kind being of "lesser canon" or "impossible to reconcile" with my work.

So I'd pretty much even give fanworks a "pseudo-official" label. This can be used to deter fans from making your characters act in a way that would offend you or make the fandom revile them.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2014)

Engaging them about the content of the fan fictions is probably going to just land you in more hot water and get them all riled up. I can't see anything good coming from it, you might not remember but there has been a little backlash when some authors tired to stop fan fics.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 8, 2014)

krory said:


> Okay, so here's a very far out there question for you future novelists...
> 
> Under the condition that you "make it big" (or if anyone really picks up on your work), does the impending idea of a "fandom" intimidate or frighten you in some regards? Namely, shipping fans.
> 
> ...



Everyone would butcher my characters, create yaoi pairing, harems, and pairing I find totally inconceivable.  Other people will do a really good job, create nice artwork, and explore my characters and their relationships in ways I never thought about.  

Overall, there's nothing I could do about it, so I wouldn't care.  It's free publicity, will get more people into my works, since they'll hopefully buy the source material and be my hardcore audience, and go to my book signings, and hopefully they'll become better writers through the practice.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Everyone would butcher my characters, create yaoi pairing, harems, and pairing I find totally inconceivable.  Other people will do a really good job, create nice artwork, and explore my characters and their relationships in ways I never thought about.
> 
> Overall, there's nothing I could do about it, so I wouldn't care.  It's free publicity, will get more people into my works, since they'll hopefully buy the source material and be my hardcore audience, and go to my book signings, and hopefully they'll become better writers through the practice.



That is true, it is free publicity. I never thought about that. 

I don't have enough dudes for yaoi pairings luckily enough.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 8, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Engaging them about the content of the fan fictions is probably going to just land you in more hot water and get them all riled up. I can't see anything good coming from it, you might not remember but there has been a little backlash when some authors tired to stop fan fics.




That's why there's a series of fun facts or "in depth rules" that mean a character will stop being said character if breached. For one, the main character has as a self principle (and as rule of royalty AND rule of blood) of not chasing after someone who already has suitors unless that someone is of his same gender. Attempting to put him in a love triangle would pretty much get him under arrest and the potential suitor executed.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> That's why there's a series of fun facts or "in depth rules" that mean a character will stop being said character if breached. For one, the main character has as a self principle (and as rule of royalty AND rule of blood) of not chasing after someone who already has suitors unless that someone is of his same gender. Attempting to put him in a love triangle would pretty much get him under arrest and the potential suitor executed.



You don't understand how fan fiction works, do you? With that kind of rule set you're basically asking for someone to write forbidden love stories about the character secretly being in love and sneaking around and then getting caught and rebelling for his love until the law is changed or something. 

And that's if the author of the fan fic cares to write following your rules. They could just as easily write it in an alternate universe or just ignore that rule and keep everything else the same. Hell, I wrote an alternate universe fan fic where Harry Potter's parents weren't dead and Voldemort had gone to jail for killing Myrtle and making the first horcrux. Any little thing can be a jump off point. 

If you're every lucky enough to have fans that are really passionate they will study your words and draw huge inferences from small details you put on the page whether they're there intentionally or not. Most of the best fan fiction ideas I have seen came from small details. The "danger night" stories from the show Sherlock or some of the more lofty concepts of artificial intelligence explored by people writing Halo fan fiction.

Your best bet is to write as if they're not there. You especially don't want to discourage them from doing whatever they want because honestly them being there is going to help your sales. Fan fiction takes on a mind of it's own and keeps your reader community alive and thriving between books. When Rowling took that break between books four and five some of the most well known fics popped up to fill the gap. That's where Cassandra Clare got her start and where a lot of the creativity that made the community thrive started and Rowling is still popular to this day for it.


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## Tyrael (Apr 8, 2014)

I always considered it strange when an author feel like they have total control and ownership of a story and characters. The reader is very responsible for their own experience too, and writers are a bit like a tour guide if you will.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 8, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You don't understand how fan fiction works, do you? With that kind of rule set you're basically asking for someone to write forbidden love stories about the character secretly being in love and sneaking around and then getting caught and rebelling for his love until the law is changed or something.
> 
> And that's if the author of the fan fic cares to write following your rules. They could just as easily write it in an alternate universe or just ignore that rule and keep everything else the same. Hell, I wrote an alternate universe fan fic where Harry Potter's parents weren't dead and Voldemort had gone to jail for killing Myrtle and making the first horcrux. Any little thing can be a jump off point.
> 
> ...



That's why I mentioned the rule of blood. The person will simply never agree to such a thing because his personality is like that. Also, I thought ahead. The place is a multiverse and there are no "alternate" versions of him, so an AU wouldn't even be an AU but another timeline, and, for bonus troll points, the timeline too, is called the "Unified Timeline" or "United Timeline" meaning that all timelines have been merged into one. Making a character OOC either means bad writing or that it's not the same character anymore...

I have nothing against creative freedom, but there are many works for guys out there that can become the prey of shoujo fangirls, whereas it's impossible to do the other way, so I took that into account while making the superstructure of the verse to make it "shoujo or josei proof" and supported it with shoujo proofing... It has multiple demographic appeal, but the female following will be drawn in for different reasons (it's pretty much a nakige story for girls) but I wanted to make it so that it was solidly young male aimed more than anything, not to alienate female readers, but to give the same sense of entitlement that female oriented literature gives to females.

As with ignoring the rule, yeah, they can't do that. Think of it like a Geass. The character won't do that because he effectively does not want and never would want... Not unless conditions change.

There's forbidden romance, but not of that kind. In fact, the romance is inspired on Titanic, with the main being in an arranged marriage with a human female and shaking this off near the end of the novel much to the human's chagrin and the true antagonist's frustration.



Tyrael said:


> I always considered it strange when an author feel like they have total control and ownership of a story and characters. The reader is very responsible for their own experience too, and writers are a bit like a tour guide if you will.



I have not ownership over them, but I feel protective of them, as if they were my friends, and I wouldn't want them to get hurt (at least not emotionally) and I can't even say I am a tour guide. The main character is, and I've breath enough life into him to know how it'd feel for him and what he would and wouldn't do.

Speaking about alienation...



I know this isn't meant for a picture thread (and that it's a terrible map, but I just speed made it with a mouse and no brush), but do you think people may feel offended that their countries are underwater now?


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## Risyth (Apr 8, 2014)

No matter your intentions, a fanfiction writer can do whatever they please with your work, so long as they don't claim the original source. If you get a single fanfic off your story, you should be happy as fuck that it's gotten that popular, anyway.

If that map was meant to represent global flooding, it's extremely inaccurate. There are maps online to depict that. Otherwise, it looks really good. Who cares what other's would think, though. It's not racially or religiously motivated.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 8, 2014)

I know, but I want to make it clear that there are certain things character would do. If they do otherwise, they're no longer that character. That fanfic goes from "pseudo canon" to "non canon". I'd publish the character traits online so people who choose to rape my characters know that their stories are not even considered stories of my characters, whereas those that respect them will get inspired by knowing I consider their works "canon".

The map doesn't represent "logical" flooding... Regions where sunk underneath through the power of a sword that would sink the "non-free" lands (lands where the future alien culture that would rule the world would meet violent opposition) and it caused those regions to sink underwater rather than be flooded. It also changed the balance of power from West to East and from North to South and did away with two station areas while making Siberia, Greenland and the Antarctic continent inhabitable. This in return, gave CIS and Russia more leverage and weakened NATO. Israeli areas are temporarily flooded (and uninhabited Palestinian areas too) and Africa becomes wealthier.

The sword itself is named Fenrir, for obvious reasons.


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## Risyth (Apr 8, 2014)

OOC = out of character. It's very common in fanfiction. That's why it's called "fan"fiction. The quotes aren't meant to be offensive. But it's by the fans and the fans control what they write. If the author of the original work wants to include whatever fanon is out there in his/her work, canonizing it, that's legit. All fanfiction besides fanon that's canonized into canon and original canon itself is non-canon, since only the original work is considered canon (because it's canon to itself, obviously).

I see. That's a very OP sword there and if you intended selectivity, it makes sense looking back at it. I saw what you did with the poles, though. I know the sites can't help with that.


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## Krory (Apr 8, 2014)

Risyth said:


> If you get a single fanfic off your story, you should be happy as fuck that it's gotten that popular, anyway.



I guess, for me, that would depend on what that fanfic is.


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## crazymtf (Apr 8, 2014)

I would love fanfic of my work. Only because I'd like to see what other people could do with my universe and characters.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> OOC = out of character. It's very common in fanfiction. That's why it's called "fan"fiction. The quotes aren't meant to be offensive. But it's by the fans and the fans control what they write. If the author of the original work wants to include whatever fanon is out there in his/her work, canonizing it, that's legit. All fanfiction besides fanon that's canonized into canon and original canon itself is non-canon, since only the original work is considered canon (because it's canon to itself, obviously).
> 
> I see. That's a very OP sword there and if you intended selectivity, it makes sense looking back at it. I saw what you did with the poles, though. I know the sites can't help with that.



Yeah, but because those characters mean a lot to me, I couldn't bear to see them be forced to do stuff they wouldn't like. So I made deterrents to keep writers from using them like that and made it so that they can be singled out. Fanfiction that respects this are "fanfiction" in that they take from my work to do stuff, whereas stuff that doesn't isn't fanfiction, but an original work using identical characters. Making this opinion known helps make sure that people will respect the characters themselves.

My characters aren't just plot devices... They're alive, they "breathe" and have emotions of their own. Making them stuff they hate and like it would be akin to taking an IRL person and making them your slave.

As with the sword, don't worry, it pretty much shatters from doing such a monumental thing (it was supposed to slay the Skyfathers or "Earth's pantheons" which are what we actually call gods and devils and many of whom were opposed to the idea of opening the world, having been isolated by the Skyfathers from the supernatural, intergalactic exchange and the multiverse, as well as keeping humanity from finding out about the supernatural) and was used by the older brother of the main lead to build a better world for him (and everyone).

The poles are now inhabitable. I didn't portray it, but there's a new land mass in the North Pole and Antarctica is now comparable to Europe, even boasting antique cities that resemble what you'd see in Bayonetta and Soul Calibur, being planned and built by Rostroitel (Russian construction) and looking natural. Poverty is no longer a problem and Africa is as developed as Central Europe nowadays. Russia annexed and silenced North Korea and became a Superpower once again and Scotland is now an independent country and a Superpower in their own right.


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## Krory (Apr 9, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> I would love fanfic of my work. Only because I'd like to see what other people could do with my universe and characters.



It could be interesting until they pair the 40 year-old gay male character with the 16 year-old female.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 9, 2014)

Just remember, there's an entire subset of Hermione/Snape sex stories out there. Probably a few hundred of them at least. 

People could do it to your characters.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

^ And when people ask me if I don't mind my characters being treated like that, I'll reply "They're not my characters... Just people that look like them and share a name.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 9, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ^ And when people ask me if I don't mind my characters being treated like that, I'll reply "They're not my characters... Just people that look like them and share a name.



But some of these stories are in character. That's part of the issue, pairings aren't part of a character that are set in stone because people fall in and out of love and break up. Hell, half of the stories about some characters spend time explaining why the other pairing didn't work out for reasons, that if they happened, would be valid. 

There's not much good that can be done by trying to discredit your fans who are writing about your stuff because they're not doing any harm though. And trying to build in world things to stop them seems like a waste of time for something that might never happen or if it does happen nothing will stop it.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> But some of these stories are in character. That's part of the issue, pairings aren't part of a character that are set in stone because people fall in and out of love and break up. Hell, half of the stories about some characters spend time explaining why the other pairing didn't work out for reasons, that if they happened, would be valid.
> 
> There's not much good that can be done by trying to discredit your fans who are writing about your stuff because they're not doing any harm though. And trying to build in world things to stop them seems like a waste of time for something that might never happen or if it does happen nothing will stop it.



I'm not saying it will stop them, but it'll draw a fine line between the characters and how people believe they are or should be. There is stuff that many of my characters wouldn't do unless an entire civilization depended on it. Even if you take that and run away with it, they will no longer be the characters. If Aston (main character) does something he'd never do, he's no longer Aston, just a different character with the same name. Taking out or putting something in destroys the essence that makes them, therefore destroying the character.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 9, 2014)

Fans will do that. They will destroy the characters in their fanfiction to serve their cracky ends and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. So, it's best not to think about what crazy things the fandom will do.  It's all a joke.


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## crazymtf (Apr 9, 2014)

krory said:


> It could be interesting until they pair the 40 year-old gay male character with the 16 year-old female.



But...I already do that...


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## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

Once more, I have a way to avert that or at least, deter it. Even if it doesn't, there will be no usage of my characters in that. They simply cease being the characters I created once they start writing about them in a way that they aren't. Being OOC is one thing, doing what they're not is a completely different story.


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## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Once more, I have a way to avert that or at least, deter it. Even if it doesn't, there will be no usage of my characters in that. They simply cease being the characters I created once they start writing about them in a way that they aren't. Being OOC is one thing, doing what they're not is a completely different story.



Doing what they're not supposed to do is the definition of OOC, along with behavioral changes. 

Fanfiction isn't supposed to have the characters act exactly as they would in the source material. It can do whatever it wants. I said it's by the "fans". There's no way to avert anything the fans decide to do, short of mind-control. Depending on the type of fanfic, that goes for deterring as well.


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## Krory (Apr 9, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> But...I already do that...



That's hawt, yo.


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## Krory (Apr 9, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Fans will do that. They will destroy the characters in their fanfiction to serve their cracky ends and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.



You can still go full-blown Anne Rice.


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## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

Anne Rice?



crazymtf said:


> But...I already do that...


Np, we all do.


jk


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## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Doing what they're not supposed to do is the definition of OOC, along with behavioral changes.
> 
> Fanfiction isn't supposed to have the characters act exactly as they would in the source material. It can do whatever it wants. I said it's by the "fans". There's no way to avert anything the fans decide to do, short of mind-control. Depending on the type of fanfic, that goes for deterring as well.



That's why I said there are things that they'd never do. This aren't OOC. They're full blown other character stuff. I can't keep writers from attempting this, but I can sever any ties between my characters and OOC renditions that don't do them justice by treating them as game pieces.


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## Krory (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Anne Rice?



I'm not sure if she still does it, but she adamantly hunted down Flash Fiction of her Vampire Chronicles works - places like FanFiction.net and such started to no longer allow them on their sites due to the trouble she was causing over it.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

krory said:


> I'm not sure if she still does it, but she adamantly hunted down Flash Fiction of her Vampire Chronicles works - places like FanFiction.net and such started to no longer allow them on their sites due to the trouble she was causing over it.



Sounds like a b--bad lady. Someone whose example you don't want to follow. And she probably sucked as an author too. Just...another jab. Assuming this is all true, of course.



> That's why I said there are things that they'd never do. This aren't OOC. They're full blown other character stuff. I can't keep writers from attempting this, but I can sever any ties between my characters and OOC renditions that don't do them justice by treating them as game pieces.


Nope, that's exactly what OOC means. Anything the character wouldn't normally do in the source material, they're doing in the fanfiction. You can't change established terms in the community.

---

On a side note, just got MS Word back. Now that I can put my chapter together, I see it's...


...305 pages. Not bad for halfway done.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Sounds like a b--bad lady. Someone whose example you don't want to follow. And she probably sucked as an author too. Just...another jab. Assuming this is all true, of course.
> 
> 
> Nope, that's exactly what OOC means. Anything the character wouldn't normally do in the source material, they're doing in the fanfiction. You can't change established terms in the community.
> ...



There's a difference between OOC that respects those involved, and OOC that blatantly ignores the characters wants and needs. The later are the ones that I'll sever ties with. You can make OOC fanfics, but making a character do something very specific will make that character an original one.

It's like making a character act OOC and gouging his soul out.

I'd use Scrivener if I was you.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

As weird as a non-author might think your closeness to your characters are, I can completely relate to it.

But no FF writer's gonna care. And it's all OOC. There's moderate and severe OOC "syndrome," but OOC is usually seen as the latter.


What makes that better than Word? Considering I busted my ass to get this. (And it's just 2007....)


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

I know they won't care. But I'll sever ties with those that flat out rape them by making them do things that they refuse to. They look and are named like my nakama, but if they do something my nakama wouldn't do, even by OOC standards, they're no longer my nakama, just others that look like them...

Also, . It's free if you ration your days (or your computer's permanently on like my own).


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

"Sever ties"?

I almost think you're joking by this point? 

That product sounds good...only I don't plan to publish this story in a book. That aside, if it's compatible with Word documents, it looks worth a shot.


Btw, how is this supposed to be punctuated?



> It was about time I get back in.
> 
> 
> And I mean _really_ in.



Quotation marks over the "really" or the "in"?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> "Sever ties"?
> 
> I almost think you're joking by this point?
> 
> ...



As in "I wrote down a FAQ with stuff about the characters. Some of it may be ignored, some of it may not be ignored". Those who ignore the later will no longer be using my characters because they'd be doing stuff so against their personalities that it'd no longer be the same character, even if OOC. 

It is Word compatible. I use it because it has a nice UI. Word was too bland for me to write enjoyably.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

What, you'd track 'em down? How?  

I like Word's UI...a lot. But if that's Word-compatible and gives a free trial, might as well see.


--Okay, shrunk it to 254 pages. lol


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

No. But people who'd read my web page would know that if they see a fanfic like that, that those characters no longer have anything to do with mine.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

I think I get what you're saying. Because the FF characters are still based off the source, but you're saying that's not how the source is supposed to be for when they read it, rigt?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 9, 2014)

I'm shocked that people worry over fan fiction that hard. Anne Rice was one of many, but a lot of authors call people thieves and go on these hard core rants about how evil people are being by taking all of their ideas and blah blah blah blah blah.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

She called fanfiction a "transitional phase".

Fool's an idiot. Some people pay homage to the source and its author through their fanfics. Some people just can't give enough fucks to write their own novel from starkness...and some just want to write a fanfic because they've a desire to work with that source.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> She called fanfiction a "transitional phase".
> 
> Fool's an idiot. Some people pay homage to the source and its author through their fanfics. Some people just can't give enough fucks to write their own novel from starkness...and some just want to write a fanfic because they've a desire to work with that source.



I still am working on doing a fan fic for Bioshock Infinite and Doctor Who and I try to keep everything in character and if I can I try to even keep things in sync with the story that happens in the source. Sometimes for certain things I deviate, but I try not to.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

What would you do if the creators of those sources blocked your fanfics?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> What would you do if the creators of those sources blocked your fanfics?



Just find a new site to host them. Honestly Ken Levine and Steven Moffat are pro fan fiction anyway. 

Levine read fan fiction stories set in the Bioshock universe on a you tube video and he even asked the author's permission to do so. 

Moffat was a fan fic writer before he was the head writer on Doctor Who, he says that he sees what he does right now as fan fiction because he's still a Doctor Who fan.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 9, 2014)

Then that's hag and her supporters are even more embarrassed.

Sorry, "hag" is offensive. I meant "bitch".


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 9, 2014)

GRRM has spoken out against fan fic too - calls it all a waste of time. Seems like JK Rowling doesn't mind it, but has been pressured by her peers into shutting down some of the fan related stuff that's sprung up around HP.

The whole thing just makes writers look out of touch with their fans.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I think I get what you're saying. Because the FF characters are still based off the source, but you're saying that's not how the source is supposed to be for when they read it, rigt?





That's how it is. It's my way of pointing at a fanfic and saying "those aren't the characters I made" then point at another fanfic and add "those are!" 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm shocked that people worry over fan fiction that hard. Anne Rice was one of many, but a lot of authors call people thieves and go on these hard core rants about how evil people are being by taking all of their ideas and blah blah blah blah blah.



Oh no! I'd love fanfics of my own work. If anything, the "open" world encourages massively multiplayer crossovers.



Risyth said:


> She called fanfiction a "transitional phase".
> 
> Fool's an idiot. Some people pay homage to the source and its author through their fanfics. Some people just can't give enough fucks to write their own novel from starkness...and some just want to write a fanfic because they've a desire to work with that source.



Some just want the awesomeness of their favorite characters meeting each other in unlikely circumstances.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I still am working on doing a fan fic for Bioshock Infinite and Doctor Who and I try to keep everything in character and if I can I try to even keep things in sync with the story that happens in the source. Sometimes for certain things I deviate, but I try not to.



I'm still working on a Lyrical Nanoha, Soul Calibur, Tekken, Tales, Fate/stay night and Elysium fanfic. I don't change the characters, but I make it so they clash against someone with opposing ideals.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2014)

It seems that Risyth and I have the same opinion of Rice. She just acts like a fucking child a lot of the time and her stories got to the point where she was writing as if she was doing fan fiction of her earlier stuff. It's kind of embarrassing.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 10, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm shocked that people worry over fan fiction that hard. Anne Rice was one of many, but a lot of authors call people thieves and go on these hard core rants about how evil people are being by taking all of their ideas and blah blah blah blah blah.



It's not like any of these people are making money off of the fanfiction they write. 

I also don't understand why there's outcry against fanfiction, but not fanart.  Not even when fanart is commissioned, and they person actually is making money off drawing other people's characters.  Even when it's smut.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 10, 2014)

What applies to fanfics applies to fan-_anything_ for me.


----------



## Krory (Apr 10, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's not like any of these people are making money off of the fanfiction they write.
> 
> I also don't understand why there's outcry against fanfiction, but not fanart.  Not even when fanart is commissioned, and they person actually is making money off drawing other people's characters.  Even when it's smut.



Because usually people commissioning fanart are at least _good_.  Most fanfiction writers are just troubled teen girls who can't just look at porn like males to get out their sexual frustrations and instead have to write about two straight men fucking each other because it seems cool at the moment.

But really it probably goes back to integrity, most fanart are harmless, it's not a matter of making money on the character. Fanfiction is mostly about doing to someone else's characters what _you_ would rather them do. Like, what's up with all the crazy AU shit? There was some Naruto fanfic where Naruto and Sasuke were Russian astronauts and had sex in a space shuttle.

You don't _usually_ see that kind of shit in fanart since unless it's a comic of some sort, there's no real necessity for a plot in it. Really, though, if you _like_ something, the best way to show that isn't to go, "I'm going to rewrite history _this_ way because that would be better."


----------



## Risyth (Apr 10, 2014)

Though fanfics have gotten a bad rep, that's entirely irrelevant to both our points and the weak points of those stuck-up authors.

Fanart is still non-canon. Only source art is canon. And besides that, they can't have any outlandish scenarios like those in fanfics because they're just drawings and not even panels. Unless you're talking about actual comics based on source material, in which case the arguments against fanfiction applies there too.

_"...it's not a matter of making money on the character. Fanfiction is mostly about doing to someone else's characters what you would rather them do."
_
Again, that's just douchery on part of the selfish authors who safeguard their characters as if they were Obama and his family even when there's nothing to lose, at all, by allowing the fanfiction.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> GRRM has spoken out against fan fic too - calls it all a waste of time. Seems like JK Rowling doesn't mind it, but has been pressured by her peers into shutting down some of the fan related stuff that's sprung up around HP.
> 
> The whole thing just makes writers look out of touch with their fans.





Risyth said:


> Though fanfics have gotten a bad rep, that's entirely irrelevant to both our points and the weak points of those stuck-up authors.
> 
> Fanart is still non-canon. Only source art is canon. And besides that, they can't have any outlandish scenarios like those in fanfics because they're just drawings and not even panels. Unless you're talking about actual comics based on source material, in which case the arguments against fanfiction applies there too.
> 
> ...



Exactly. I think it's just selfishness and a little bit of insecurity. In multiple cases the plots of fan stories have been better than anything the source material ever produced. And often times more well thought out. 

Art isn't threatening because it's not in the same medium as writing.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 10, 2014)

^ Case in point. Twilight. I actually read all of it and I'd know.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2014)

Well one of the big things going on in some writing spheres is this thing where there make a manga out of a book. I know Twilight and some other YA series since then have had them. They kind of pissed me off to be honest because they are drawn with this very generic character type and they don't fit the description of most of the characters.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 10, 2014)

One day I want to make a comic out of my series. Murrican style with colors n shit.. Despite the fact it's so blatantly inspired by manga. I just really want to go extra experimental with several different visual styles switching back and forth.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 10, 2014)

You're all damn lucky you can draw. My best is to just translate the thing into Fr/Jp, assuming I'm alive by then. 

Though, there's another layer of difficulty that comes with visualizing a novel and vice-versa. Hold it doesn't trouble you...but I guess it'd depend on the novel, really.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 10, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Exactly. I think it's just selfishness and a little bit of insecurity. In multiple cases the plots of fan stories have been better than anything the source material ever produced. And often times more well thought out.
> 
> Art isn't threatening because it's not in the same medium as writing.



So if you do fan art or fan comics it's not threatening, but a doujin work of a manga would be threatening?




> "...it's not a matter of making money on the character. Fanfiction is mostly about doing to someone else's characters what you would rather them do."



I'm pretty sure Naruto doesn't want to make out with mother, but that's out there.  There are some pretty depraved Naruto fan arts and doujins out there, with characters drawn and acting however the artist wants, and they sell for actual money.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 10, 2014)

You didn't ask me, but don't doujin count as fancomics? I'm not really into Japanese culture, so I can't saym myself.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 10, 2014)

Manga doujinshi does.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 10, 2014)

I thought there only was manga doujin lol.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 10, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> One day I want to make a comic out of my series. Murrican style with colors n shit.. Despite the fact it's so blatantly inspired by manga. I just really want to go extra experimental with several different visual styles switching back and forth.



Given the prominence of the bishieness in my characters, I am pretty much into making it into a manga or manga inspired novel (if so, expect me to send it straight to France or Italy) and possibly color it all.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 10, 2014)

Korea'd also be a good choice. 

But can't deny France is the best.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 10, 2014)

Korea is shoujoland, so no. France is known for being the first Western nation to popularize the anime aesthetic and to this day, you sometimes see anime-styled ads in Paris.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 10, 2014)

Shoujoland? What's that?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 10, 2014)

Land of girl fantasies and wish fulfillment. I play for the other team.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 10, 2014)

Oh man, Idk that word? I'm tired as hell.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So if you do fan art or fan comics it's not threatening, but a doujin work of a manga would be threatening?



I'm talking about real licensed content that is published. Not fan made.

I don't like the idea of them because they change things around and are considered official.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 11, 2014)

What's happening here? I thought this was supposed to be a good place.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 11, 2014)

Eh? Something's happening? This place is perfect. It's where the angels roost.



...


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2014)

Starting to remember why I stopped using Firefox. Too bad it looks so damn good.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 11, 2014)

Opera is your best friend.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 11, 2014)

Anyone who has a facebook, would you mind LIKING my Exterminators Page? Please  Trying to build a community. 

Also, first book of that series is free (Link on Facebook) if wouldn't mind downloading it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 11, 2014)

I haven't gotten around to reading the first book yet.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 11, 2014)

^It's fine man. I'm so busy trying to catch up on my backlog I 100% understand.


----------



## Krory (Apr 11, 2014)

I really need to start reading, I took out my copy of The Way of Kings to read, too, and it's been sitting there collecting dust in just another spot.

I blame video games. Bastards.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 12, 2014)

I've finished Running Man and a short story for the series "I Hunt Killers" while in the middle of shining...I have a bad habit of doing that lol. I'm focused on finishing the shining now though.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 12, 2014)

Has everyone here finished at least one book?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 13, 2014)

Entire HP, Twilight and Dan Brown sagas.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2014)

I wish I could write like Vladmir Nabokov.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Has everyone here finished at least one book?



Writing? Like six for me, only one of them is even nearly good enough for me to move forward with and since I have completely changed a lot of the details I am going to have to do a lot of work to get it back in shape.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 13, 2014)

If you meant writing... About three, but they're in terrible shape. Only one is readable.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2014)

I have not finished writing one book. I'm just too dissatisfied with my style.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 13, 2014)

I have three different styles. The old one that I've shown here and everybody dislikes, a different one for fanfics (just a revamped iteration of my old style) and the new one that's more refined, but requires huge space and is useless for snippets.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 13, 2014)

Guess we're all in the same boat. So, I'm not the only one dissatisfied with something. 

I still haven't found my style yet, too, I think. Eh, and I don't think I'll ever be able to tell. But I just don't have a single book done either.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2014)

I found a style I really liked. Lost it, and kept writing.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 13, 2014)

Is that prose?

I hate how I can identify others' prose but not my own. I need to work on that. How do you just choose a style?


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 13, 2014)

Got a super cool e-mail from someone today saying they got my book awhile back but finally got to reading it the last week. He enjoyed the characters a lot, the Unknowns (Monsters), and the cliffhanger. It's just really cool to get feedback, good or bad. Makes it seem like all the work is worth it


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 13, 2014)

I guess I have my own style of writing. I guess I just usually write and don't pay attention to it.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 13, 2014)

Some people aren't lucky enough to get "official" feedback.

Jk, it's a really good sign if they say they'd buy it.


Yeah, that's how it naturally develops, I'd say. Maybe it's just hard to monitor on a micro or page-by-page scale. I think I can see some differences between my chapters (which sucks, but w/e).


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 14, 2014)

I've finished one short story that's worth anything.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 14, 2014)

I have a short story called "I am a Bed Monster". I kinda ruined it at the end because I didn't know how to end it.


----------



## Banhammer (Apr 14, 2014)

Well duh

Mom turns on the lights


----------



## Risyth (Apr 14, 2014)

Oh, it's not STD-related?


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 14, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I have a short story called "I am a Bed Monster". I kinda ruined it at the end because I didn't know how to end it.


I wanna read. Send it


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 14, 2014)

So yeah, it's . I'm embarrassed of it...


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 14, 2014)

What don't you like about it? Just finished reading it and enjoyed it a lot. Lots of interesting takes on things (Love the teddy bear idea) and overall easy and fun read. I think you should publish it as a short story as it is. The ending left like that is almost perfect, kind of leaves it off with a "well...what now..." and I like it. Either way, good work. I enjoyed it


----------



## Risyth (Apr 14, 2014)

...so no STDs?

Had that Animorphs vibe, though.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 14, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> What don't you like about it? Just finished reading it and enjoyed it a lot. Lots of interesting takes on things (Love the teddy bear idea) and overall easy and fun read. I think you should publish it as a short story as it is. The ending left like that is almost perfect, kind of leaves it off with a "well...what now..." and I like it. Either way, good work. I enjoyed it



Well I'm glad you enjoyed it. 

And that ending, you see... I more so did whatever with the ending because I didn't know how to actually end the story. It really was meant to be the first two parts, but I extended it because I had more to say and it went well until I created the Seven Sins. Then that's when things started to get weird and I had to make that ending. 

And this is actually my best writing, this story. 

And do you mind PMing me how I could publish it as a short story? I've looked at Createspace and it's too expensive for me. I mean, I could do the editing myself, but I might need a cover page and stuff. 



Risyth said:


> ...so no STDs?
> 
> Had that Animorphs vibe, though.



Never read Animorphs. Was it any good?


----------



## Risyth (Apr 14, 2014)

Yeah, very. To me. Though that was long ago. I was just referring to the intro of each section where you repeat the same sentence for hard effect.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 14, 2014)

Yeah sure. Createspace is great for FULL fledged books but short stories, nothing beats Directkindle. I'll PM you tomorrow before work with some tips I used. I still em trying to fix half my shit because the conversation can be tricky. Hit you up tomorrow


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 14, 2014)

Okay, crazy, thanks.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 14, 2014)

Eh, forget keeping track of page count. I think you guys agree it means nothing in terms of these works.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 15, 2014)

That sounds interesting. Puppets and dummies scare the shit outta me. I'll give it a read when it's done. 

And thanks for the link. I'll look at it when I'm done with this bullshit homework


----------



## Risyth (Apr 15, 2014)

At 2AM. 


This is the funniest night in a while lol. Anyone else having that cathartic writing experience?


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 15, 2014)

I always go on a writing rampage at like 1 or 2 in the morning haha. 
Also, got my short story up for FREE but just today. If you like horror (And I mean...HORROR) check it out. It's free. Can download it on Kindle, Ipad, Ipod, Phone, PC and so on. Let me know if you do so I can thank you. Also, if can leave a review (Good or bad) that be Awesome! Thanks


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 15, 2014)

^Thank you for the support before hand! I am now number 4 in the horror section. It's awesome! 

Oh and that's amazing. Those numbers are super freaking high 0_0


----------



## Risyth (Apr 16, 2014)

> I always go on a writing rampage at like 1 or 2 in the morning haha.



I was referring to the homework.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2014)

We this thing got a fun little update:


----------



## Risyth (Apr 17, 2014)

Woobie? Wall-E?


Regardless, that's badass.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 19, 2014)

Can't think of what to call my giant robots...


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 19, 2014)

Super Destruction Apocalypse Mecha Bots of Doom!!


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 19, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Can't think of what to call my giant robots...



Could you give some attributes? Build (humanoid like EVAs, boxy like Gundams or in between like Knightmare Frames and Valkyries), size (huge like EVAs, tiny like Knightmares) and whether they're piloted or RCed.

If your story has a theme, it'd help.

If I was to give my badge? Muspell!


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 19, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Can't think of what to call my giant robots...



Gears. **


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 20, 2014)

Ha ha funny. I probably have to reference puppets or something or armor.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 20, 2014)

Can't you share the thematic with us?

Also, I've just finished editing book 1 and it's now ready for release. The thematic of the franchise will be music.

How does Wintry Allegro: Prelude sound for a title?


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 20, 2014)

I came up with the name last night. It was pretty simple. I always come up with a name when I'm forced to.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 20, 2014)

So what was it?


----------



## Risyth (Apr 20, 2014)

Does anyone here feel like they'll never finish their...novel, long story, poem, w/e...


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 20, 2014)

Gotta push yourself. Only got one life, and if this is important enough you gotta do it


----------



## Risyth (Apr 20, 2014)

That's true. 

Especially since I don't expect to die naturally.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 21, 2014)

I'm trying to get _I am a Bed Monster_ published on Amazon but since I don't know all my bank account information, I had to ask my mother and she's tripping out because she thinks Kindle Direct Publishing is a scam and would take all my money out and still my identity and stuff. And I'm just like whating during her entire explanation about the matter. She's being really difficult (  -___-) I understand her concern but she's being unnecessarily difficult.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 21, 2014)

lol, I know what you mean. But it's fucking retarded. Amazon doesn't need to steal your identity. They already have your information. My mother felt the same about paypal.


----------



## Drums (Apr 21, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Does anyone here feel like they'll never finish their...novel, long story, poem, w/e...



finishing them is "easy" if i have time to write.

what i find hard is doing a good job out of it(good writing, good editing etc)


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 21, 2014)

StrawHeart said:


> finishing them is "easy" if i have time to write.
> 
> what i find hard is doing a good job out of it(good writing, good editing etc)



You're no finished until you're done editing. I kind of snicker when people talk about their initial word count like they're done. Finishing the first draft seems like it's just one third of the way to done.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 21, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I'm trying to get _I am a Bed Monster_ published on Amazon but since I don't know all my bank account information, I had to ask my mother and she's tripping out because she thinks Kindle Direct Publishing is a scam and would take all my money out and still my identity and stuff. And I'm just like whating during her entire explanation about the matter. She's being really difficult (  -___-) I understand her concern but she's being unnecessarily difficult.



Tell her they only ask that because they will be putting the money into the account if you make some.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You're no finished until you're done editing. I kind of snicker when people talk about their initial word count like they're done. Finishing the first draft seems like it's just one third of the way to done.



StrawHeart probably meant the editing process too. Word count is irrelevant in writing a story; only the scenes and setting them and the characters and their actions within them to the best extent is important.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 21, 2014)

StrawHeart said:


> finishing them is "easy" if i have time to write.
> 
> what i find hard is doing a good job out of it(good writing, good editing etc)



I would say that it's so easy to write trash.  But it's actually hard, because you just get frustrated and destroy it when you realize that it sucks.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 21, 2014)

It's hard for me to write trash.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 21, 2014)

Risyth said:


> StrawHeart probably meant the editing process too. Word count is irrelevant in writing a story; only the scenes and setting them and the characters and their actions within them to the best extent is important.



She pretty much says writing and then goes on to mention editing and all that other stuff in the next part. Writing of the story, especially the first draft is kind of about getting everything on page. Editing is about getting things to fit and getting things out that shouldn't be there. 

It's shocking how much stupid shit makes it onto the page with me and even when I read it a few days later I wonder what I thought putting it there. I'm lucky that this editor is actually really good about telling me what fits or what she thinks is going on when she reads certain things. 

Word count can mean a lot if you need to sell what you've written and is considered when you look at different genres.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 22, 2014)

Not really. Drafting and editing are two halves of the writing process. She didn't separate them until the parentheses, meaning I guess she thought writing was just drafting.

I'm sure she considers both aspects of writing to be equally important. I'd hope so, anyway.

Word count is important for selling, but just for writing a good story, all one needs to worry about is getting it done and done well. For some reason, word count is like serve speed in the tennis community, # of kanji learned in the Japanese community, and levels of math courses taken, etc (sorry for the narrow-minded examples). It's often just a way of showing off in the writing community, I guess. I'm guilty of it too...but in the end, I'm still so early on in my story, it doesn't even matter...and even if I were finished, if the story ended up bad, it ended up bad.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm late enough in my writing of this draft to know about where some things are going with all of this. Already started editing. 

I'm reading a nonfiction book that might play into my writing some, though. It's called "The Gift of Fear" and it's about perception in situations and instinct and I really want my main character to have a good danger sense.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 22, 2014)

What do you mean by  "danger sense"?


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 22, 2014)

Danger, Will Robinson, Danger.
[YOUTUBE]hDF8Wcbif-Y[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 22, 2014)

Risyth said:


> What do you mean by  "danger sense"?



Regular human perception tries to warn us all of the time about danger. A lot of people (stupidly) ignore it. People who talk about how they had a bad feeling about a person but continued to deal with them, for instance. If I get a bad feeling around someone like that I typically just don't bother being around them. The book talks about that or about noticing details and the like. The guy has some other things like this, but this one is more relevant to what I want. 



Lord Yu said:


> Danger, Will Robinson, Danger.
> [YOUTUBE]hDF8Wcbif-Y[/YOUTUBE]



Exactly.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 22, 2014)

So, like...Atton Rand.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 22, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You're no finished until you're done editing. I kind of snicker when people talk about their initial word count like they're done. Finishing the first draft seems like it's just one third of the way to done.



It's halfway done to me. When I edit it, it's usually because everything is ready.


----------



## Drums (Apr 22, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You're no finished until you're done editing. I kind of snicker when people talk about their initial word count like they're done. Finishing the first draft seems like it's just one third of the way to done.



what i meant with "finished" is me being done with writing the draft of my story.

of course you're not completely done with the story/novel until you've also finished the editing part.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I would say that it's so easy to write trash.  But it's actually hard, because you just get frustrated and destroy it when you realize that it sucks.



well writing trash is very easy xD what's hard is reviewing it and editing it because or you end up ragequitting or you have a great lot to edit in order to improve it.




Risyth said:


> *Not really. Drafting and editing are two halves of the writing process. She didn't separate them until the parentheses, meaning I guess she thought writing was just drafting.
> 
> I'm sure she considers both aspects of writing to be equally important.* I'd hope so, anyway.
> 
> Word count is important for selling, but just for writing a good story, all one needs to worry about is getting it done and done well. For some reason, word count is like serve speed in the tennis community, # of kanji learned in the Japanese community, and levels of math courses taken, etc (sorry for the narrow-minded examples). It's often just a way of showing off in the writing community, I guess. I'm guilty of it too...but in the end, I'm still so early on in my story, it doesn't even matter...and even if I were finished, if the story ended up bad, it ended up bad.



that's correct!

and yeah i agree word count doesnt mean much to me. what's more important is having a story with a good plot, good characters and most of all good writing.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 22, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Tell her they only ask that because they will be putting the money into the account if you make some.



I did that (  -___-) She wants to "check [the website] out" to make sure it's not a scam (  -____________________________________-)


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 23, 2014)

Make a near empty account for minimal loss.


----------



## Patchouli (Apr 30, 2014)

I feel like writing a book.

Just don't know what about.

Drank a bit of beer and went on a walk. Suddenly ideas everywhere. But no real thread that ties them together.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 30, 2014)

You should do it! 

Just make sure it's not another Twilight :33


----------



## Krory (Apr 30, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> You should do it!
> 
> Just make sure it's not another Twilight :33



Unless you want a lot of money and no integrity.

Then make sure it _is_ the new Twilight.

Or worse, another Dan Brown novel.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 30, 2014)

What about another, male demographic Hunger Games? (what I am pinning for).


----------



## Risyth (Apr 30, 2014)

You're gonna need more than one beer.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 30, 2014)

Anyone ever plan out a scene one day and the next you are writing it way different.


----------



## Risyth (Apr 30, 2014)

Depends on how well I plan.

Wdym?


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 30, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Anyone ever plan out a scene one day and the next you are writing it way different.



As they say, no battle plan survives contact with the enemy, so goes for writing.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Apr 30, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Anyone ever plan out a scene one day and the next you are writing it way different.



Ugh, yes. But sometimes I surprise myself at what I write, seeing how what I don't plan is sometimes very exciting.


----------



## Krory (Apr 30, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Anyone ever plan out a scene one day and the next you are writing it way different.



That would imply I ever actually write anything.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 1, 2014)

It depends. It only happens if I really can't get it out of my mind.


----------



## Risyth (May 1, 2014)

I think I'm going into writer's withdrawal or something...had my first dream about this story after not having working on it in a week....


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 4, 2014)

Patchouli said:


> I feel like writing a book.
> 
> Just don't know what about.
> 
> Drank a bit of beer and went on a walk. Suddenly ideas everywhere. But no real thread that ties them together.



Talk and share, if you please.


----------



## Risyth (May 4, 2014)

Would anyone be able to tell me if a certain character of mine is an unintentional Mary Sue?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 4, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Would anyone be able to tell me if a certain character of mine is an unintentional Mary Sue?



Lay them out for us.  There's also an online test somewhere if you want a second opinion.


----------



## Risyth (May 4, 2014)

I trust human analysis over machines, plus I can be more specific.

(Damn, 6666--repping after my 24 )

But before I do, do you think something like this would make a good topic?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 4, 2014)

I'd just do it here, but if you wanted you could make a topic.  Either on your character, or on mary sues, or on character development in general.  

Do we have a character testing thread already?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 4, 2014)

Your character bio thread could probably just be converted to one.  Character Testing and Fleshing.  You're the original poster so you can make the change.


----------



## Risyth (May 4, 2014)

Yes; I made it on request, actually. But it didn't pertain to sues and such specifically.

Would there be a way for me to change the thread name?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 4, 2014)

Yeah, I'd just open that one up and broaden it like I mentioned in that post that's lost on last page.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 5, 2014)

Well I think that Mary Sues are one of those things that people really hate that can work if the author does it right. I don't mean all the bullshit that Sue came to mean, I mean the actual original meaning. Wish fulfillment author stand in characters. The thing that really makes almost anything work in writing is writing it well. You can write a Mary Sue so well that people don't care about the fact that the character is basically the author screaming at you from the page. Wesley Crusher from Star Trek really didn't ruin the show for me, despite being blatantly a Sue. 

Still, it's better to avoid them.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 5, 2014)

Before this even happened in Naruto, my character Steven Friday (not the one from the Four Worlds) was the one who was given power--by Sunday--while Vincenzo was the one who had to train for his power. When that was said in a recent Naruto chapter--Sasuke was the one born with power while Naruto was the one who had to work for his--I was just like wtf with that. People who read Naruto will think I plagiarised...


----------



## tari101190 (May 5, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> ...People who read Naruto will think I plagiarised...


Nobody will think that. Good stories are far more than their tropes. Unless your story is also about ninjas.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2014)

If your story was actually about ninjas, it probably wouldn't be mistaken for Naruto anyway.


----------



## Tyrael (May 5, 2014)

There's ninjas in Naruto?

But yeah, Naruto is pretty solidly monomyth nonsense, so it's more than likely elements of it will crop up in most stories.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 5, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Would anyone be able to tell me if a certain character of mine is an unintentional Mary Sue?



That depends on how it is written. A character that is awesome but has reasons for it makes sense.



Risyth said:


> I trust human analysis over machines, plus I can be more specific.
> 
> (Damn, 6666--repping after my 24 )
> 
> But before I do, do you think something like this would make a good topic?



So do I, specially after these:



Two different trials about the same thing yield two vastly different bios.

According to the first, the character is perfect (as in, well fleshed and developed) and the second makes him into zzzzerrrrry zzzvtrrrrong marty stu.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I think that Mary Sues are one of those things that people really hate that can work if the author does it right. I don't mean all the bullshit that Sue came to mean, I mean the actual original meaning. Wish fulfillment author stand in characters. The thing that really makes almost anything work in writing is writing it well. You can write a Mary Sue so well that people don't care about the fact that the character is basically the author screaming at you from the page. Wesley Crusher from Star Trek really didn't ruin the show for me, despite being blatantly a Sue.
> 
> Still, it's better to avoid them.



I see Sues as being "wish fulfillment" done wrong. If the character is wish fulfillment for the writer AND the reader and is able to exist on it's own even if these traits weren't wish fulfillment, then it's good to go.


----------



## Krory (May 6, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Before this even happened in Naruto, my character Steven Friday (not the one from the Four Worlds) was the one who was given power--by Sunday--while Vincenzo was the one who had to train for his power. When that was said in a recent Naruto chapter--Sasuke was the one born with power while Naruto was the one who had to work for his--I was just like wtf with that. People who read Naruto will think I plagiarised...



I don't think people will think that because anyone with at least half a brain can see through Kishimoto's crap that Naruto didn't even really "work" for half his power anyway - he was destined for it still.


----------



## Risyth (May 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> That depends on how it is written. A character that is awesome but has reasons for it makes sense.



True. I was just curious because...I was. I wasn't going to change how I wrote the character. :ho 




> So do I, specially after these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can't open the second link, but as for the first...

_is nothing like you. She is not at all cool; in fact, she thinks cool is a temperature reading, and when she says "Oh, I just put on whatever old thing's lying around," she means "on the floor, where I threw it last night - but I turned the underwear inside out first." There's never been anything special about her that she could see; boy, is she in for a surprise. She's got no emotional scars to speak of. And she's gotten no slack from you. 

In general, you've kept yourself a goodly distance from and given her plenty of room - maybe a little too much. Don't distance yourself so far from that you stop caring what happens to her. _

This is so stupid and unrelated to what the term actually means that I can't even begin to insult it properly.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 6, 2014)

Risyth said:


> [/COLOR]
> True. I was just curious because...I was. I wasn't going to change how I wrote the character. :ho
> 
> 
> ...


The thing is that people substitute the term more and more for "characters I don't like" or "characters who are badly written". 

I think the only other abused term online like this right now is the word "meme" which is rarely used correctly and then the things people are calling memes aren't even being used correctly!


----------



## Risyth (May 6, 2014)

Agreed, since a guy I knew tended to call every character in a story stronger than he was comfortable with them as Sue characters, as if that were the only qualification for them. It really does just seem like something that stems from people reading a certain trope-site incorrectly.

Yeah--if you or your forum are the only one using it, it's not a meme. The chance for any sort of fame must be in the mind 24/7, is all I can imagine.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 6, 2014)

I don't know...I have a theory there are two types of immortality: the first one being the type where a being cannot die by any means and the other being a person can't die from age but can be killed if something mortally wounds him. 

I never liked the idea that something can't die at all. Everything has to die sometime. It's a way of life.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 6, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I don't know...I have a theory there are two types of immortality: the first one being the type where a being cannot die by any means and the other being a person can't die from age but can be killed if something mortally wounds him.
> 
> I never liked the idea that something can't die at all. Everything has to die sometime. It's a way of life.



I may give characters extended lifespans, but not immortality. That destroys the possibility of epic historical sequels, passing the torch and multiversal expansion


----------



## Risyth (May 6, 2014)

I always compared between immortality and invincibility, thinking the former was with aging, and the latter was with wounds.

Of course, that's not a good comparison.


----------



## Krory (May 6, 2014)

I more associate immortality with the aging bit. Unless you're talking metaphorical immortality, like someone "made immortal" through, say, their work or memories or something.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 6, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I don't know...I have a theory there are two types of immortality: the first one being the type where a being cannot die by any means and the other being a person can't die from age but can be killed if something mortally wounds him.
> 
> I never liked the idea that something can't die at all. Everything has to die sometime. It's a way of life.



Immortal and invincible aren't really so interchangeable to me. When I use the term in writing I mean the character will live forever unless killed by someone or some outside force. It just means they won't age to death. 

Invincible just means their impervious. I don't think I have anything beyond being able to be attacked besides God and he's more or less not present in the stories.


----------



## Tyrael (May 7, 2014)

How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?


----------



## Buskuv (May 7, 2014)

I'll tell you when I find out.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?



That's what makes you strive to be better.


----------



## Krory (May 7, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?



I don't.

Or have you not read my posts in the Flash Fiction threads?

That's probably why I don't write.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 8, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?



You see, I don't. The nagging doubt in me hardly, if ever, existed because I think what I write is pretty good (especially from the feedback I get )


----------



## crazymtf (May 9, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?



I know my writing skills are limited. Not because I'm dumb, I simply rush through a lot of stuff and make some of the worst mistakes you could make. I go over it of course, and now double/triple check but I still find small mistakes. I get so annoyed when I read the published version and find small mistakes. But see, the thing is, people who read it mention it but it doesn't seem to really take them out of the story. It's not terrible mistakes, usually small ones. 

I always say, you can fix grammar mistakes but you can't fix a shit story. I think I write pretty good stories. I've always had a theory of having a well developed character story driven story. I don't think I've failed there...yet


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 10, 2014)

I think the only problem I have with writing is me constantly repeating descriptive narration and my vocabulary. I don't have a large vocab.


----------



## Risyth (May 10, 2014)

> How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?



I read it. And if it sounds like trash to me, it'll sound the same to someone else. So I change it until it sounds about perfect to me, so it'll sound at least good to someone else.


----------



## Krory (May 10, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I read it. And if it sounds like trash to me, it'll sound the same to someone else.



What if you think everything you write sounds like trash?


----------



## Risyth (May 10, 2014)

No matter how many times I try to correct it? Then I delete the scene/chapter, as I've done three times now...which is getting annoying.


----------



## Krory (May 10, 2014)

Not even just everything for that scene or chapter. I mean everything you have ever written, ever. It was a hypothetical, as I was more hinting at my own inadequacies and self-loathing and lacking self-esteem. A feeble attempt at humor. Alas, I have failed.


----------



## Risyth (May 10, 2014)

Oh...well, to make it better by taking it seriously, I woudn't stop regardless. For one, it's my only story; but for two, if I gave up now, that'd mean I purposefully wasted three, soon to be four years of writing.

And that's no good. 

Maybe you should consider that. Sometimes the rush of good ideas come much later as you're writing, when you least expect them. And those good ideas can help turn your previous "trash" around.


----------



## Lord Yu (May 10, 2014)

krory said:


> Not even just everything for that scene or chapter. I mean everything you have ever written, ever. It was a hypothetical, as I was more hinting at my own inadequacies and self-loathing and lacking self-esteem. A feeble attempt at humor. Alas, I have failed.



The problem is not your writing. It's just your self esteem, krory.


----------



## ~Avant~ (May 10, 2014)

I've always wanted to read the type of story I'm writing and to the few friends who I've told about the details of my story to, they nerdgasm and tell me they can't wait to read it. 

Also I'm a Marine. Marines are confident bastards.


----------



## Lord Yu (May 10, 2014)

I rewrote the prologue to my first series, The Doll and The Madman. I really should finish it. The Gear Eyed Girl is a sequel series in every sense.  The first series has always been loosely structured so it was hard to write.


----------



## Krory (May 10, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> The problem is not your writing. It's just your self esteem, krory.



Although I'm sure that is probably the case, you don't really know that for sure (or rather that it is not the writing as well).


----------



## Lord Yu (May 10, 2014)

That's write I don't. And I never will if you don't find the courage to give writing a serious go. You wouldn't be in here if there wasn't some part of you that wanted to give it a go.


----------



## Risyth (May 11, 2014)

I'm sure he has a masterpiece and just doesn't want to admit it.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (May 11, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?



I just rewrite it and add in some new ideas. I eventually end up with mutliple versions of the same story. Then I choose which one's the best and I let others give their opinion on which version is the best. I did this with the introduction a few days ago. xD


----------



## Krory (May 11, 2014)

Risyth said:


> I'm sure he has a masterpiece and just doesn't want to admit it.



Yeah, let's go with that.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 12, 2014)

I saw the member Bruce Wayne and thought that Batman had returned to us with a name change.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 12, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I rewrote the prologue to my first series, The Doll and The Madman. I really should finish it. The Gear Eyed Girl is a sequel series in every sense.  The first series has always been loosely structured so it was hard to write.



The title to your first book alone makes me want to read it.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 12, 2014)

That is a good title. I have a really hard time titling anything. I used to do titles for all of my chapters, but I took all of it out because they were just bad.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 12, 2014)

I title my chapters. I don't know why, but I do. Some of them don't really need titles, but I like consistency.


----------



## Banhammer (May 12, 2014)

You know something, so much of writing is about keeping up momentum, that if we really cared about mutual writing discussion group, we'd probably think about creating a dedicated skype group where people could bounce off each other writing work in real time whenever they felt like it, instead of just sauntering by and waiting to see who picks up the post


----------



## Banhammer (May 12, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> How do you guys overcoming the nagging doubt that everything you write is crap?



You keep writing, because practice makes perfect.

Writing crap well beats writing brilliant ideas crappingly

Maybe write short stories until you get it out of your system.




krory said:


> Not even just everything for that scene or chapter. I mean everything you have ever written, ever. It was a hypothetical, as I was more hinting at my own inadequacies and self-loathing and lacking self-esteem. A feeble attempt at humor. Alas, I have failed.



Judging by your flash fics, I think your biggest flaw is what you set yourself out to do

You have a clear talent to make things feel like they are behaving naturally, characters have a consistent voice, and setting as a consistent text giving your prose a feeling of solidity, but what comes through in what you express combined with your own confessions of self doubt, is that you disappoint yourself through something you do not tackle, maybe a greater implied conflict of themes, or an effort to carry the things you show talent in, into long term comprehensive narratives.

If you want to get more in touch with some of the first issue, maybe go back and read some Neil Gaiman, like American Gods or Ocean at the End of the Lane. Gaiman is very fond of personifications, and it's an interesting way to think of that in the reverse direction.
If it's the latter, than go have fun with some door stoppers, maybe a sanderson or two

Or maybe I'm completely wrong, and don't know what the fuck I'm talking about


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2014)

Consistent character voice is very important. If someone has that down they're better than a lot of the shit you see published. I mean it seems like there's so many books where the characters just act more based on what the author needs them to do to set up certain things and less because that's how they would act and I feel like that's most apparent in dialogue.


----------



## Risyth (May 15, 2014)

Probably because they want to hurry up and get the story over with. That kind of investment only works if the narrative is short or they plan on writing the distance.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2014)

I think it has more to do with the fact that people think that they're in control of the story and that whatever they think they need to have happen can just happen and it has to make sense because they wrote it.


----------



## Risyth (May 15, 2014)

Well, that's just plain bad prose. But the author does know their characters best even if they suck at expressing that personal knowledge.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2014)

Yeah, but it is very common and some of it gets published. There are some things that publishers seem to be looking for and not all of them are quality based.


----------



## Risyth (May 15, 2014)

I'd say money is the first priority when publishing. 

Perhaps that might mean we have more potential? Lol, assuming we don't suck in comparison.


----------



## crazymtf (May 18, 2014)

If you type in "James DeSantis" on Amazon you will see all my books/short stories pop up. Today is my one year anniversary of releasing my very FIRST book "Exterminators Infected" and with that I have made EVERY single book/short story I released so far FREE today. So enjoy! =)


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 18, 2014)

My mom's still bullshitting me with that bank information.  
It's like she doesn't _want_ me to start my future.


----------



## Krory (May 18, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> And my numbers today on downloads are amazing. I can't believe the support I got. Over 400 downloads, I'm baffled. If anyone here was apart of that or my past success I just want to thank you very much. It means the world to me.



Congrats man, extraordinary news.


----------



## Risyth (May 18, 2014)

^What about you?


----------



## Krory (May 18, 2014)

What about me?


----------



## Risyth (May 18, 2014)

Your novel of undisclosed size, I mean. 





*Spoiler*: __ 



Truthfully, I'm coming up on a dead-end. I'm going to go back and rewrite everything. One day I'll have caught up to crazymtf.


----------



## Krory (May 18, 2014)

My novel is of an undisclosed size because there is no novel and there likely never will be. :33


----------



## Risyth (May 18, 2014)

Then you must write poems or lyrics to something, I take it.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 19, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Your novel of undisclosed size, I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm just about done. But since I am aiming at giving it to a publishing house rather than self publishing, I need to make sure it's yummy and juicy.


----------



## Lord Yu (May 19, 2014)

I went back to writing my first novel The Doll and The Madman. The Gear Eyed Girl just screams sequel from every orifice so I can't write it first. So far I feel happy with how this draft is running. It's so delightfully demented.


----------



## Krory (May 19, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Then you must write poems or lyrics to something, I take it.



No, it means I don't have the confidence, self-esteem, willpower, drive, attention-span or (arguably) skill/talent to write my potential novel.


----------



## Risyth (May 19, 2014)

Stop with this lying...you're making me feel bad, Mr. Modest.


----------



## Krory (May 19, 2014)

Ask anyone that knows me.


----------



## Risyth (May 19, 2014)

You're so proud? ww


----------



## Krory (May 19, 2014)

I'm always proud of my self-pity.


----------



## crazymtf (May 19, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I'm just about done. But since I am aiming at giving it to a publishing house rather than self publishing, I need to make sure it's yummy and juicy.



Which publishing house are you going with?


----------



## Nordstrom (May 19, 2014)

Whatever my agent finds. But it's not easy since it's in English, but if you are asking what I am rooting for, it'd be Little, Brown and Company or Bloomsbury (which is closer) since they all have experience with "fantasy romance" books. I've noticed that from Twilight onwards, pop culture has gotten darker. I aim to usher a light revolution and go the opposite route The Hunger Games went by portraying an utopian, rather than dystopian future. Also, contrast is made to Harry Potter and Twilight, such as magic being widespread and well known around the world (opposite of Harry Potter's masquerade and Hogwarts containment) and the setting being urban and mostly sunny (opposing Twilight's rural and cloudy, isolated setting).


----------



## crazymtf (May 19, 2014)

^Interesting. I like the idea, not to mention different sometimes makes it big. I wish you all the luck! If it comes out let me know, I want to read it


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 19, 2014)

I just ordered a mechanical keyboard to help with me breaking keyboards from typing to hard all of the time. It's a gaming keyboard so it should be a pretty durable model and all. I'm kind of giddy over the whole thing


----------



## Risyth (May 19, 2014)

You type so hard that your boards break? I can't even imagine that.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 19, 2014)

The little things that press down into the keys wore out and one of the keys popped off with the plastic gone beneath it. I'm a big dude though. I'm almost six five and I have hands so big that my Note 3 looks like a regular sized phone in them.


----------



## Risyth (May 19, 2014)

...nah, I still can't see it. Sorry, bro...really.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

The little things that make the keys pop up when you press them down is what broke. So I am getting this: 



This way I can transport it around and the like.


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

What if I told you I still couldn't picture it? You think I'm stupid, I bet. 

Damn, that looks like a Windows '95 exclusive keyboard, it's so tough...did that make sense?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Risyth said:


> What if I told you I still couldn't picture it? You think I'm stupid, I bet.
> 
> Damn, that looks like a Windows '95 exclusive keyboard, it's so tough...did that make sense?



I would take a picture of the Logitech that I broke, but it's still out in the car. The T key and one of the numbers is fucked up. This thing should last me twenty years if I take even decent care of it. Plus it makes that awesome old school click noise!


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

If you actually took a picture and showed it, I'd rep you thrice for just wasting your time like that. lul

I hate that noise. It disturbs those who sleep around me. Makes it seem as if you're not "gliding" through your navigation too.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Risyth said:


> If you actually took a picture and showed it, I'd rep you thrice for just wasting your time like that. lul
> 
> I hate that noise. It disturbs those who sleep around me. Makes it seem as if you're not "gliding" through your navigation too.



This is similar to the sound mine will make. The switches beneath the keys are Cherry MX Blues, they're some of the louder type (I did that on purpose).


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

Lol, he types slow as fuck. 

On a side note, it may be that board...it sounds painful, bro. But durability is the most important...having touched the motherboard of my last PC, I'd know.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 20, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> ^Interesting. I like the idea, not to mention different sometimes makes it big. I wish you all the luck! If it comes out let me know, I want to read it



I will. Hopefully, guys will finally get their turn to gush over hot buxom women with incredibly long and voluminous hair in - getup reading sapphic poetry to them 



Risyth said:


> You type so hard that your boards break? I can't even imagine that.



I can, but only if I picture Beethoven doing it.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The little things that make the keys pop up when you press them down is what broke. So I am getting this:
> 
> 
> 
> This way I can transport it around and the like.



It looks nice. Too boring for my shit taste, but nice and resilient.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I would take a picture of the Logitech that I broke, but it's still out in the car. The T key and one of the numbers is fucked up. This thing should last me twenty years if I take even decent care of it. Plus it makes that awesome old school click noise!



You mean the metallic click? I actually like it a lot, but I have one of those original keyboards and typing is harder, so it tires me pretty fast.

That said, I use this...





Have gotten used to that shape so badly I can barely type in a normal keyboard without looking at the letters, which is annoying.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

This is what I want to work my way up to, it's true typing perfection: 



Feast your eyes gentlemen.


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> This is what I want to work my way up to, it's true typing perfection:
> 
> 
> 
> Feast your eyes gentlemen.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

It's out of stock everywhere and it's really what my heart desires :S


----------



## Nordstrom (May 20, 2014)

Look at my Holy Grail of Writing too!


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Witchcraft.


----------



## Tyrael (May 20, 2014)

This is is what I want. Clearly I'm not a hipster.


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

You're sort of halfway....


----------



## Tyrael (May 20, 2014)

But am I living on a prayer?


----------



## Krory (May 20, 2014)

Risyth said:


> You're sort of halfway....





Tyrael said:


> But am I living on a prayer?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Is anyone else here listening to Writing Excuses?


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> But am I living on a prayer?



...with that thing... 

...probably.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Is anyone else here listening to Writing Excuses?



No; what's that?


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 20, 2014)

What is that?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Risyth said:


> ...with that thing...
> 
> ...probably.
> 
> ...



It's a podcast hosted by some professional authors. Dan Wells is on there and he's probably my favorite. But it just talks about different aspects of writing and promotion. A lot of the later stuff is about being a writer and unexpected things that come up with the job.


----------



## crazymtf (May 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That's a pretty good download haul. I'm pretty sure that someone will post a review. Did you make a Good Reads author account?
> 
> Also did you not realize this is a keyboard thread now



I didn't know you can make an author account. I made one, and my books are on there, but I dunno how else to connect them lol. 

Also I'm in the newest issue of "SCREAM" in the UK so check it out!


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

Oh, nah, I'm not as pro as the rest of you guys here.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

It helps some, but honestly it's fun to listen to. Plus Dan Wells responds on Twitter and I've actually met Mary. She's pretty BA.


----------



## Banhammer (May 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> This is what I want to work my way up to, it's true typing perfection:
> 
> 
> 
> Feast your eyes gentlemen.



A european wireless? What's the big excitement? 

I got a couple of those


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> A european wireless? What's the big excitement?
> 
> I got a couple of those



It's wired. It's a mechanical compact keyboard. No function keys, no arrows, well built and customizable.


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

You just made it sound worse.


----------



## Banhammer (May 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's wired. It's a mechanical compact keyboard. No function keys, no arrows, well built and customizable.



The ol' typewriter, eh?

I moved in with a couple of recent grad engineers, I should probably have a box or two with those things
I should give them a try


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> The ol' typewriter, eh?
> 
> I moved in with a couple of recent grad engineers, I should probably have a box or two with those things
> I should give them a try


This keyboard is about 150$.


----------



## Banhammer (May 20, 2014)

Oh wow, I'm really out of touch with retail these days <_<


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> Oh wow, I'm really out of touch with retail these days <_<


I have a lot of weird preferences for my writing, like I have been wanting a keyboard like that and I need two screens to effectively edit because I can put the old stuff on the bigger screen (my TV) and work on the laptop.


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

Respect. That's my entire savings right now.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Respect. That's my entire savings right now.



I found a puppy and collected a 500$ reward for that plus I get a pretty decent paycheck these days. Dropping 100 on a keyboard wasn't a big issue and I don't go out much so I save money.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I can, but only if I picture Beethoven doing it.



 tenchars


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I found a puppy and collected a 500$ reward for that plus I get a pretty decent paycheck these days. Dropping 100 on a keyboard wasn't a big issue and I don't go out much so I save money.



You lucky betch!


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2014)

It's not luck.  He stole the puppy.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2014)

My ideal writing tool


*Spoiler*: __ 





Editing is a pain, and so is transferring it to digital, so I use a computer.  I can only get away with writing poetry on pen and pad.


----------



## Krory (May 20, 2014)

I just write everything with this:


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Risyth (May 20, 2014)

iPhone for me. On the go? No problem. I even write in my courses. 

But sometimes I have to go pencil/paper, too, if phones aren't allowed.


@krory: You're saying you don't use it?


----------



## Krory (May 20, 2014)

I mean I just come up with everything in there and let it dissipate so I have no recollection or source of it ever again since it would likely be a waste anyway.

Waaaait a minute, you were being funny.


----------



## Banhammer (May 20, 2014)

I write everything in pen and  paper, and then re-write the whole thing on computer, except that time around I simply do it better, and consult only the paper if I'm lost


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2014)

Writing by hand is a great idea until you lose everything or get it wet or it gets stolen. I write on a computer exclusively and save everything in my email and a few other places.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 20, 2014)

I can never seem to get myself to write something down on paper anymore. It's all on the computer. It's like a that or nothing thing with me. I've wrote most of my stories on paper when I was in like...what, 9th-10th grade and then I went into laptops. I guess it's because I find handwriting tedious.


On another note, I'm almost done editing part 1 of my book. That's 11 long ass chapters, with number 7 being the longest  So that leaves me with... 2 parts and 25 chapters to go. I might take out a chapter a merge a couple of them together.


----------



## Tyrael (May 21, 2014)

krory said:


> I just write everything with this:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Looks interesting, where can I get one?


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 22, 2014)

Hi guys, if you all want, here's the website I'm storing my book/short stories at. If you all want to have a read, go right ahead:


----------



## Risyth (May 22, 2014)

Speaking of which, what's it about this thread that makes us all "aspiring novelists"?

Most people here have published/are already publishing novels; and, though I'm not, I've _long_-surpassed the conventional size of a novel.


----------



## Krory (May 22, 2014)

Because you aspire to continue being a novelist, I presume, and to welcome people that have not yet accomplished such a task.


----------



## Risyth (May 22, 2014)

That's not what the thread title implies...and I keep thinking you're holding out on me. Can't I at least have a hint?


----------



## Krory (May 22, 2014)

There's really nothing to hint at, I don't know what you want.


----------



## Risyth (May 22, 2014)

...


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 23, 2014)

Risyth, I think you just don't understand what Kroy's trying to say to you. You're being complicated (  -____-)


----------



## Krory (May 23, 2014)

That seems to be a running gag.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

Calm down, man. It's not like I don't want him to be here.


And my question still stands. Why are we "aspiring"?


^Krory, I just want to accommodate you and for you to be happy here, and this is how you reply?


----------



## Tyrael (May 23, 2014)

Is anyone here a professionally published author?

Not that I'm saying you can't be professional based on self-publishing, but most people in this thread, except crazymtf and MF to my knowledge, haven't even got that far.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

Not as if they want to make money, but everyone seems to be putting their stuff up regardless. 

Or maybe it just seems that way to me.


Still, A novelist is just an author who writes novels. I don't think we're truly "aspiring".


----------



## Tyrael (May 23, 2014)

I've written a couple of novels now, but I certainly wouldn't call myself a novelist or author without the legitimacy of publishing. It's like how I wouldn't claim to be a plumber if I once unblocked a toilet.


----------



## Krory (May 23, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> I've written a couple of novels now, but I certainly wouldn't call myself a novelist or author without the legitimacy of publishing. *It's like how I wouldn't claim to be a plumber if I once unblocked a toilet.*



...shit, really?

I should probably stop handing out these business cards.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

Well, that's very modest, but so long as you've finished one, you can claim legitimacy. Maybe even before, so long as you actually continue to do that. I mean, it's just someone who writes novels. There's nothing special in the form of prerequisites other than merely getting the novel written.

I can only assume the thread's title indirectly refers to our growing abilities as novelists.


----------



## Krory (May 23, 2014)

I have the ideas of a novel in my head.

I am now a novelist.

Booyah.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

Ironic. Now I don't understand you.

The definition and etymology of the word is clear. You have to be actively writing them.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 23, 2014)

Let's just say (so that we can end this awkward conversation) that even a published author making money is still aspiring. Even if you have one successful book or 100 your next book could bomb and you could be out of a job. Whenever we try to write a book we're not sure if it's going to be a huge deal or something no one will want to read.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

So it's just the general aspiration for success as a novelist. That makes sense.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 23, 2014)

Speaking of novelist, this random English author who's been published came across my dating profile on a site the other day and started talking to me. She's really cute and she's taken an interest in some of the stuff I've been working on. We've been talking about different books and types of characters and stuff for a few weeks now. 

It's too bad she's all the way in fucking England.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

Try to meet her halfway.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Damn, that was lame; I know. 

Ideally, she'll let you know, hint or otherwise, that she wants to be over with you as much as you want to with her (I think). That's when you move forward. You'll have support by then.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Try to meet her halfway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think she's just down for the writing and all. She seems like she's not really romantically interested in anyone currently. She's also taking care of a sick mother or something. I'm supposed to be reading her books right now but I'm trying to level up on Bravely Default and watch Louie.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

Oh, well, despite her not seeming interested, I admire how easily you're able to share each other's works. It's impossible for me to easily read a story written by someone I know. I put in extra effort for myself and I've come to terms with this, but it just gives me a very...bizarre feeling. It may even be embarrassing.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Oh, well, despite her not seeming interested, I admire how easily you're able to share each other's works. It's impossible for me to easily read a story written by someone I know. I put in extra effort for myself and I've come to terms with this, but it just gives me a very...bizarre feeling. It may even be embarrassing.



Eh, I can usually read stuff written by someone I know easily. And I actually enjoy it more because I just kind of get little things about them in there.


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

You mean the private stuff?

I can see what you mean in some cases. It i were an autobiography, that'd be fine. 


But, say, my grandfather's adventure novel: I'm just uncomfortable trying to read under such circumstances. Really, I wish it wasn't that way with me. Sometimes I can't even edit my work out of disgust.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 23, 2014)

That is one of those things I think that a lot of people get nervous about when they let people read their writing. Will they be creeped out by some of the things you write about or say? I don't really know if I have had anyone really freak out over it yet. There's some sex and violence and other stuff like that in what I'm writing. Some of the characters aren't good people at all and that's hard for some people to get over. 

It's made me more cautious who I advertise this stuff to at this stage. A lot of my friends are only into reading sappy romance stuff or something like that. They don't want to read about a genius hobo who raped someone with a fluorescent light bulb...


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 23, 2014)

People laugh at my stuff sometimes which made me really insecure about it over time when I have someone read my stuff in person. (Idgaf if they're over the interwebs.)


----------



## Risyth (May 23, 2014)

I see your points and used to experience that as well. 

But for what I was saying earlier, it's not about the writing itself but about the person writing it, especially if they're close relatives. It's a hard kind of feeling to explain.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Speaking of novelist, this random English author who's been published came across my dating profile on a site the other day and started talking to me. She's really cute and she's taken an interest in some of the stuff I've been working on. We've been talking about different books and types of characters and stuff for a few weeks now.
> 
> It's too bad she's all the way in fucking England.



Move.  She's your ticket to the publishing world.  It'll be a novel relationship.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 24, 2014)

I can't believe I missed that. CTK, take that chance... Now...


----------



## crazymtf (May 24, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Is anyone here a professionally published author?
> 
> Not that I'm saying you can't be professional based on self-publishing, but most people in this thread, except crazymtf and MF to my knowledge, haven't even got that far.



I've talked to a lot of people here in my town who try to get published. Two of them who have gotten published (One romance the other a fantasy writer) have given me two opposite looks at getting published. The fantasy writer owns his own publishing company, and besides writing, he also publishes other books. He has seven authors under him and he said they do reasonably well for their niche field (super nerdy fantasy). 

The writer who does romance does pretty damn well but she said it's tricky business with publishing houses. She said she wrote a book that wasn't romance and she felt it was her best written work but the publishing house refused to publish it, saying it was not what they wanted. Also, one time she written a book and by the time it went through edit at the publisher, the whole ending changed to this sappy and weak ending. 

She enjoys the fact they advertise and it does well, able to pick it up at Publix, Barnes and nobles, and so on. However, her limitations she hates. So she is going to self publish under a different name all her non-romance books and rest through publishing house. 

I would love to get published by a company but not all my stuff. I feel some would be changed to the worst possible outcome to make it more accetable to a crowd I could give two fucks about. However, some of my work can easily be handled and made better and sent to the masses. So 50/50 for me. 

I do love self publishing though for the freedom, and I'm glad ANYONE reads my stuff. Makes me happy


----------



## Nordstrom (May 24, 2014)

Given the names, attempt to determine the origin of these characters 

Aubrey, Madeline, Arianna, Elspeth, Jade and Aston.


----------



## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Move.  She's your ticket to the publishing world.  It'll be a *novel* relationship.



...



^When does it take place?


----------



## Nordstrom (May 24, 2014)

2017 AD/ 0017 UA


----------



## Risyth (May 24, 2014)

All but Elspeth and Aston are American. Don't know why, but Aston sounds French.


----------



## Krory (May 24, 2014)

Risyth said:


> All but Elspeth and Aston are American. Don't know why, but Aston sounds French.



Two of them could be French, one could be Greek or Italian or Latin, one is English... there are many possibilities and considering where they are from, the naming conventions of their families or their communities, amongst other things, it could really be anything.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 24, 2014)

I thought everyone would fall for what my friends told me ("they're all British?!") 

Aston, Elspeth and Aubrey are all British. Madeline and Jade are French and country neutral. Aston hails from Wellington, Aubrey from Bloemfontein, Madeline from Geneva, Elspeth from Glasgow, Arianna from Canberra and Jade from Forks...

Which is rather weird, since they are all from the same family. Now I wonder... If I don't say their countries, would people be able to tell where they come from?


----------



## Risyth (May 26, 2014)

krory said:


> Two of them could be French, one could be Greek or Italian or Latin, one is English... there are many possibilities and considering where they are from, the naming conventions of their families or their communities, amongst other things, it could really be anything.



That's true; I just assumed he was referring to what nations they were citizens of.


@Sleipnyr: I had no chance...don't even know half of those places. Hope you can write good settings.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 26, 2014)

I am currently writing a short story about a main character who doesn't want to be a main character.


----------



## crazymtf (May 26, 2014)

Ha, that sounds kind of funny. I think my only problem with writing is trying to switch your stance on certain characters and their actions. I feel I either write them too good or too evil. I'm trying to balance my characters more.


----------



## Krory (May 26, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Ha, that sounds kind of funny. I think my only problem with writing is trying to switch your stance on certain characters and their actions. I feel I either write them too good or too evil. I'm trying to balance my characters more.



Jaime Lannister is one of those few characters who I started off hating but ended up being my favorite.

I like when that happens.


----------



## Risyth (May 26, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I am currently writing a short story about a main character who doesn't want to be a main character.



Is it 1st or 3rd person? Probably the latter?


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 26, 2014)

It's 1st person.


----------



## Risyth (May 26, 2014)

Oh, then that's interesting--and harder. I know I've established this rep for myself of not wanting to read anyone because of not wanting to have my prose influenced by heirs, but I honestly can't imagine such a premise, so...


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 26, 2014)

No, it's not hard really. It's much easier seeing how I'm only dealing with one character and expressing her feelings isn't as limited than in third person, imo.


----------



## Risyth (May 26, 2014)

Then I'd like to see how you'd go about it well. In a 1st person, she would sound insane to me, if she were an ordinary girl who had such knowledge and complained about it anywhere. Maybe that's what you were going for, though. If you wanted her to sound crazy and have that be a theme, that sounds good. Otherwise, I don't get it from what I can comprehend, sorry.

In a 3rd person, though, she could at least have a reason for her awareness in the form of the narrator, and you could set their interactions to your advantage as you move the plot along.


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 26, 2014)

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. To me, you're saying she's complaining about it out loud with actual dialogue instead of narration. And what you said about the 3rd POV sounds like 1st person.


----------



## crazymtf (May 26, 2014)

krory said:


> Jaime Lannister is one of those few characters who I started off hating but ended up being my favorite.
> 
> I like when that happens.



Me too. It almost never happens, but when it does it's refreshing.


----------



## Krory (May 26, 2014)

It almost sounds like Risyth is expecting Malicious to write a first-person perspective of third-person omniscient...

@crazymofo - Got any other good examples? Trying to get back into reading and taking suggestions.


----------



## Risyth (May 26, 2014)

> I don't understand what you're trying to say here. To me, you're saying she's complaining about it out loud with actual dialogue instead of narration. And what you said about the 3rd POV sounds like 1st person.



No, and no, krory. I don't see why you guys don't get what I'm saying, but I'll write it out, then.

_"I hate being in this story..." said in many different ways throughout the narrative._

vs

_But unbeknownst to Ann, she was really preparing for--

"Oh, would you shut up already? Damn! I'm tired of you telling what's gonna happen! You've got the biggest mouth, man! What's the point of even having this stupid story if you're gonna point everything out?"_


----------



## crazymtf (May 26, 2014)

krory said:


> It almost sounds like Risyth is expecting Malicious to write a first-person perspective of third-person omniscient...
> 
> @crazymofo - Got any other good examples? Trying to get back into reading and taking suggestions.



Hmmm I can't think of anything I read recently really have turn around characters. I mostly reading Stephen King/Dean Koontz right now and neither The Shining/The  Stand/Running Man/Odd Thomas have flip characters but all worth the read regardless haha.


P.S. - Anyone on here have Goodread accounts? Wanna add ya, post links below!


----------



## Krory (May 26, 2014)

Haven't done a lot with this.  And it shows just how very little I actually read.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Hmmm I can't think of anything I read recently really have turn around characters. I mostly reading Stephen King/Dean Koontz right now and neither The Shining/The  Stand/Running Man/Odd Thomas have flip characters but all worth the read regardless haha.
> 
> 
> P.S. - Anyone on here have Goodread accounts? Wanna add ya, post links below!



I do have one. I haven't logged into it in a while and a lot of the time I forget to update the books I'm reading or take other books off of the list when I have given up on them (which happens often).


----------



## crazymtf (May 27, 2014)

Added Krory, and understandable Knight. I use to never really use it, just recently been on it a lot. The reviews seem more detailed when I get them on there.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2014)

It was a lot easier for me to use it when I had the Kindle Fire. I went back to the Paperwhite though.


----------



## Tyrael (May 27, 2014)

Unwilling protagonists have been a hallmark of the monomyth for a while. Always consider Dune to be the best example of a story wherein the protagonist is basically aware of the story unfolding and is unwilling to take part, without ever actively going into outright metafiction. Is that sorta thing what you mean MF?

Also:


----------



## Malicious Friday (May 28, 2014)

Pretty much, but think of it as the main character basically avoiding the first episode of anything.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 29, 2014)

Just ended up cutting two more pages out of a scene. I'm working on rewriting it. One of the things I cut was a set up for a silly joke that was really being forced in there and some of the other stuff was just cliche abusive parents stuff "Omg he beats you..." and "you finally stood up to him" that kind of shit which I wasn't doing any justice by having in here so I stripped it out. I did add some stuff that I think will work much better to characterize the character and her mother. 



> I giggle and accept the cup from her. It smells like candy, but there?s a little kick to it. I take a sip and the ice bumps against my lips. The drink is sweet and cool and absolutely amazing. All this time Lissette and I were just mixing this stuff with watered down soda; we were at the cusp of something truly amazing.
> 
> She smiles and her front middle teeth are a little too big and she seems slightly too young to be my mom, let alone hundreds of years old. ?It?s good, huh?? she nods as she drinks hers. ?I?ll teach you, it?s not hard.?
> 
> ...



I feel like I'm at least doing work again.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 29, 2014)

That was pretty fun to read.  I always wondered how it would be to have families with extra senses.  How much do you just ignore or pretend not to notice, and how much do you call people out your family and friends on?  What's it like knowing that your parent just "knows."

One of the problems I have with a lot of stories and novels is that they don't take that sort of stuff into account, and everyone is basically normal until they need to do something special, and then they do.  Unless the plot demands they don't, and then they don't. Like their fantastical elements to themselves exist within a vacuum, instead of being part of their lives like they should be.

I can understand this more for someone who wasn't born with a keen sense of sense, and built their framework to match a world that didn't have those issues, but it's too much when someone was born spectacular, or has had a thousand years to get used to their abilities, and still gets fooled by a pre-teen ruse.  

Forgetting all that, someone who's been around for a thousand years should have seen it all and know all the tricks and tells anyway, so they should probably be less stupid.  What you wrote doesn't suffer that, so it just feels nice to read.  In the corner.


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## crazymtf (May 29, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Just ended up cutting two more pages out of a scene. I'm working on rewriting it. One of the things I cut was a set up for a silly joke that was really being forced in there and some of the other stuff was just cliche abusive parents stuff "Omg he beats you..." and "you finally stood up to him" that kind of shit which I wasn't doing any justice by having in here so I stripped it out. I did add some stuff that I think will work much better to characterize the character and her mother.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like I'm at least doing work again.



I believe one of the best things you have going for is your dialog sounds very natural and real. Keep that up. I wanna read your full story damn it, finish it!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 29, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That was pretty fun to read.  I always wondered how it would be to have families with extra senses.  How much do you just ignore or pretend not to notice, and how much do you call people out your family and friends on?  What's it like knowing that your parent just "knows."
> 
> One of the problems I have with a lot of stories and novels is that they don't take that sort of stuff into account, and everyone is basically normal until they need to do something special, and then they do.  Unless the plot demands they don't, and then they don't. Like their fantastical elements to themselves exist within a vacuum, instead of being part of their lives like they should be.



In the case of Annemarie's mom she's always "on" her senses are duller if she hasn't had sex in a long time, but she's always better off than you and me. When it comes to Annemarie she's unable to tap into it unless she's had sex recently. The more recent the better. She's only a half blood Succubus so she can live indefinitely without sex, but if she wants to have the strength to lift a car or heal very quickly she needs to have had sex. 

Her mother also hasn't been around for years, so this whole thing is really awkward for both of them. 



> I can understand this more for someone who wasn't born with a keen sense of sense, and built their framework to match a world that didn't have those issues, but it's too much when someone was born spectacular, or has had a thousand years to get used to their abilities, and still gets fooled by a pre-teen ruse.



With the exception of the Angels and Demons that are usually in the background no one is really all that old. Lucifer isn't really falling for tricks pulled by his daughter and neither are Michael or even her own mother who's only in her early forties. 

The whole "All adults are stupid" assumption is just one of those annoying things from fiction that needs to die. 



> Forgetting all that, someone who's been around for a thousand years should have seen it all and know all the tricks and tells anyway, so they should probably be less stupid.  What you wrote doesn't suffer that, so it just feels nice to read.  In the corner.



A lot has changed over the past few hundred years. Depending on their contact with humans and where they might not have seen very much. But I avoid those old characters because they seem less interesting. 



crazymtf said:


> I believe one of the best things you have going for is your dialog sounds very natural and real. Keep that up. I wanna read your full story damn it, finish it!


I am trying to. And I really need to refine the dialogue here more because I try to make it snappier and bitty. I don't want it to be that too much, because that's kind of the other character's thing, but I want to make sure there's some distinct voice in it and it's not just them speaking to the plot without personality.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 31, 2014)

I know I'm going to have to clean this up: 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> ?What year is it?? Daunte asked poking his head through the gap between the seats to speak directly at my Mom.
> 
> ?Oh-seven,? the light filtering through her curls catches the curve of her cheek.
> 
> ...


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jun 2, 2014)

Alright, I got the routing number and everything! I've _*just*_ submitted my short stories, _I am a Bed Monster_ and _The Killing Joke_, to Amazon and it'll be up in less than 12 hours!


Omg, I'm so happy! I can just...just...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2014)

Was the Batman reference intentional?


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 2, 2014)

So hey, I'd like to write, and I'm thinking fan fiction based on things we read and watch may be the easiest way to ease yourself, given the pre-established characters and backstories. Harder to create and build from scratch. Thoughts? How did some of you begin?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2014)

FitzChivalry said:


> So hey, I'd like to write, and I'm thinking fan fiction based on things we read and watch may be the easiest way to ease yourself, given the pre-established characters and backstories. Harder to create and build from scratch. Thoughts? How did some of you begin?



I started out writing Fan fiction in my class in Junior High and slowly started to create characters of my own and worlds similar to those that I liked until they weren't similar and none of the other characters were there either. 

Some of the characters that I use today are from those old stories.


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 2, 2014)

I've had stuff kicking around in my head for years, things that I thought could be really interesting, if placed in the right hands. I never felt mine fit the bill, which always cut things short before they started. I'd like to start writing because it's immensely challenging, which can make the reward of completion that much more satisfying. I also view it as potentially therapeutic.

I'd like to start though. I know it'll be absolute shit for a long time, but if there's any improvement as time goes on, that'll keep me going.


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## crazymtf (Jun 2, 2014)

I am a Bed Monster was pretty damn sweet. I'll def check out your killing joke one. 

Btw doing a one shot for a comic in Ireland called "SNOW". Should be fun, haven't done a comic script yet.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2014)

You'll probably write a better story than Terry Goodkind.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 3, 2014)

I've almost started writing fan fiction several times.


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## Krory (Jun 3, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I've almost started writing fan fiction several times.



Thinking back to my fan fiction makes me cry.


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 3, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Was the Batman reference intentional?




No...No...It's not a Batman reference. Shit, I didn't even know that was a comic until a friend told me it was to be honest.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 3, 2014)

I would consider revising it. I mean, I don't think you can be sued for it or anything, but it will kind of dwarf your book if there's another out there with the same name that's super popular. I was thinking about calling my book "Keep Austin Weird" and I wrote the author of a travel book with the same title. He said I could use the title legally and that he didn't mind, but that it wouldn't be good for my book's sales and that he would strongly advise against it. 

When he said it made sense.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 3, 2014)

The way I see it now, the vampire idea wasn't going to have much steam in it. I have an idea for something involving ghosts, but I can't decide if I should set it in modern times or do this weird diesel punk sort of re-imagined world that I have been thinking about for a while now. 

There are other combinations of those ideas bouncing around inside of my head, but I am trying to keep them all in check while I decide if anything I have right here has any bang to it. 

Part of me is wanting to just start writing each of the ideas out and see which one takes.


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## crazymtf (Jun 3, 2014)

^That's usually what I do. Just write and see where it goes and fix stuff up later.


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 3, 2014)

So I'm finally a published author! 

I am a Bed Monster- $2.99
The Killing Joke- $0.99

The stories are published under my pseudonym, Steven Friday.




Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I would consider revising it. I mean, I don't think you can be sued for it or anything, but it will kind of dwarf your book if there's another out there with the same name that's super popular. I was thinking about calling my book "Keep Austin Weird" and I wrote the author of a travel book with the same title. He said I could use the title legally and that he didn't mind, but that it wouldn't be good for my book's sales and that he would strongly advise against it.
> 
> When he said it made sense.



Yeah, that's gonna take a while. I'm not that very good with titles.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 3, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> ^That's usually what I do. Just write and see where it goes and fix stuff up later.



Even that isn't working out super well. I think I am trying too hard to squeeze a bunch of shit into the early part of this story. 



Malicious Friday said:


> So I'm finally a published author!
> 
> I am a Bed Monster- $2.99
> The Killing Joke- $0.99
> ...



I'm horrible with titles.


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## Risyth (Jun 3, 2014)

Simpler's better.


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## Krory (Jun 3, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> So I'm finally a published author!
> 
> I am a Bed Monster- $2.99
> The Killing Joke- $0.99
> ...



Congratulations! Best of luck. I am a Bed Monster sounds interesting


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 3, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Simpler's better.



I envy porn. They just don't have to use any tact and it's all right there in the title. There's no doubt what "Anal Queens 17" is about.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 3, 2014)

I'd like to think I'm pretty good with titles.


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## Risyth (Jun 3, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I envy porn. They just don't have to use any tact and it's all right there in the title. There's no doubt what "Anal Queens 17" is about.



Is that an actual book? Or are you referring to online movies and such?



Lord Yu said:


> I'd like to think I'm pretty good with titles.



I'm still waiting for a read from you, Lord Yu.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 3, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Is that an actual book? Or are you referring to online movies and such?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still waiting for a read from you, Lord Yu.



That's not the name of a book, it's the name of a porn I made up.


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## Risyth (Jun 3, 2014)

Eh, I still sounded impressed, so I guess you have a point. ww


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 3, 2014)

Just transcribed Spike and Faye's last conversation in Cowboy Bebop.



> "My memory finally came back." That stopped Spike cold, back to her, hands in his pocket. "But nothing good came of it. There was no place for me to return to." She balled her left up in a fist to keep from shaking. "This was the only place I could go," she finished sadly. "And now you're leaving, just like that. Why do have to go? Where are you going, what are you gonna do?" she demanded as she turned to face his back. "Just throw your life away like it nothing?"
> 
> "I'm not going there to die," he said, with that heartbreaking smile of his, that smile fraught with a melancholy so subtle that you'd miss it if you didn't know the man, weren't familiar with enough of his history like Faye had come to be. Spike looked up past the ceiling, toward the skies, that smile of his now wistful. "I'm going there to find out if I'm really alive. I have to do it, Faye."
> 
> ...


Open to criticism. I was thinking maybe starting off with scenes from shows I like as well as panels before trying to start something new.


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## Tyrael (Jun 3, 2014)

Ease up a bit on the emotive descriptors.

"This was the only place I could go", for example is already a sad thing to say. To say that she said it sadly is really not needed, since we get that from the context.

Some of the physical shows of sadness that happen in the actual show itself aren't as necessary in text. "She leaned shakily against the wall as dry sobs began to take hold." for example could be cut without losing any of the emotion really. It comes across subtler in the cartoon because it's a visual medium, but in prose visual descriptions aren't as subtle or as effective a lot of the time.


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 4, 2014)

I remember one of favorite fan fiction writers, Sintari, schooling aspiring writers on a crucial aspect of writing. Show, don't tell. In the past, when I'd given half hearted stabs at writing, one of the biggest flaws were emotive descriptors. So, thanks!

Cleaned up a bit, suggestions taken into consideration:


> "My memory finally came back." That stopped Spike cold,  his back to her, hands in his pocket. "But nothing good came of it. There was no place for me to return to." She balled her left hand up in a fist to keep from shaking. "This was the only place I could go. And now you're leaving, just like that. Why do have to go? Where are you going, what are you gonna do?" she demanded as she turned to face his back. "Just throw your life away like it was nothing?"
> 
> "I'm not going there to die," he said, with that heartbreaking smile of his, that smile fraught with a melancholy so subtle that you'd miss it if you didn't know the man, weren't familiar with enough of his history like Faye had come to be. Spike looked up past the ceiling, toward the skies, that smile of his now wistful. "I'm going there to find out if I'm really alive. I have to do it, Faye."
> 
> ...


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 4, 2014)

FitzChivalry said:


> Just transcribed Spike and Faye's last conversation in Cowboy Bebop.
> 
> 
> Open to criticism. I was thinking maybe starting off with scenes from shows I like as well as panels before trying to start something new.



You want to try and avoid cliche as much as possible. I know this is a cliche thing to say and that some cliches work and are necessary to writing. But when you say "This stopped Spike cold" in one of the first lines the stopped cold part reads a little like cliche. 

I'm going to post what I've posted in here at least once before and I'm going to stick by it as being a good example because when I put it into to practice it changed how I wrote over night. Tyrael can vouch for this and has mentioned it a few times since the day I found it: 



> In six seconds, you?ll hate me.
> But in six months, you?ll be a better writer.
> 
> From this point forward?at least for the next half year?you may not use ?thought? verbs. These include: Thinks, Knows, Understands, Realizes, Believes, Wants, Remembers, Imagines, Desires, and a hundred others you love to use.
> ...



This comes from the author of _Fight Club_ Chuck Palahniuk and it's the best example I've ever seen of someone showing instead of telling (because the people who utter this line often don't show us how to do it).


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## crazymtf (Jun 4, 2014)

Chuck Palahniuk has a writing style I dislike so much, least when I read Fight Club. Saying that, the challenge is good. Helps expand certain parts but I won't always do it that way because over detail sometimes is a pain in the ass to read. Hence why The Stand is taking me forever to fucking read.


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## Risyth (Jun 4, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with showing _sometimes._ Especially if they're backed up soon or immediately by supportive actions or dialogue from the narrative.

Because, when it all comes down to it, if you're trying to write this:

_“The mornings after Kenny had stayed out, beyond the last bus, until he’d had to bum a ride or pay for a cab and got home to find Monica faking sleep, faking because she never slept that quiet, those mornings, she’d only put her own cup of coffee in the microwave. Never his.”_

to convey, _"Kenny wondered if Monica didn’t like him going out at night…”_ you're probably going to have a lot of people who think you're simply doing too much when it can be simplified or made more direct, with Kenny's thoughts/actions relating to the matter succeeding this short statement. 

I mean, his way is good--sometimes.

But if you want to go that route, why not have the story incorporate all of those described scenes personally? Take the reader to every one of them instead of talking about them. It's still telling instead of showing, what he's doing, just more detailed telling.


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## Krory (Jun 4, 2014)

Ah, Chuck Palahniuk... my mortal enemy.


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## Tyrael (Jun 4, 2014)

Risyth said:


> There's nothing wrong with showing _sometimes._ Especially if they're backed up soon or immediately by supportive actions or dialogue from the narrative.



Whilst I do think that telling is generally underrated and does have it's place in writing, what you're describing here is probably the reason why writers so often repeat the mantra. If you're going to have dialogue or action establishing a concept, it's not a great idea to just repeat it a moment before. As such the establishing of the statement becomes a bit redundant. Best to avoid repetition.



> Because, when it all comes down to it, if you're trying to write this:
> 
> _?The mornings after Kenny had stayed out, beyond the last bus, until he?d had to bum a ride or pay for a cab and got home to find Monica faking sleep, faking because she never slept that quiet, those mornings, she?d only put her own cup of coffee in the microwave. Never his.?_
> 
> ...



Well the point of the exercise is to go a period of time doing this. Through forcing you to think about different ways to deliver information it'll help you spot when there's a better way of something. It's not saying that this is how you should write, per say, but more of an exercise to try out.



> It's still telling instead of showing, what he's doing, just more detailed telling.



Not at all - he's conveying a concept through actions and situations, which is what showing is.


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## crazymtf (Jun 4, 2014)

Indeed, it is good to do that at times. Like you said, to avoid repeating yourself. However, sometimes describing something so simple and making it long and overwritten can also hurt it. It's why some of my favorite authors can tick me off. Throwing out a whole situation for a simple "because that's the way he saw it" can drive me insane haha.


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## Tyrael (Jun 4, 2014)

Well it always strikes me there's a balance between readability and depth of style to be struck - telling is always going to be more readable than showing because it's so simple and unsubtle.

It's up to authors to figure out the balance themselves, but I like palanhuik's thing because it helps force writers into writing without using telling as a crutch.


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## Risyth (Jun 4, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Whilst I do think that telling is generally underrated and does have it's place in writing, what you're describing here is probably the reason why writers so often repeat the mantra. If you're going to have dialogue or action establishing a concept, it's not a great idea to just repeat it a moment before. As such the establishing of the statement becomes a bit redundant. Best to avoid repetition.


Well, that's why you show it with the dialogue or action. You don't have to repeat yourself when you're expressing their emotions or thoughts. Not at all. If you do that, it's your fault. You're supposed to used the dialogue and actions to supplement but further the description you gave in the narrative.



> Well the point of the exercise is to go a period of time doing this. Through forcing you to think about different ways to deliver information it'll help you spot when there's a better way of something. It's not saying that this is how you should write, per say, but more of an exercise to try out.


I agree that there are ways to do this correctly, whether for intentional effect or not, but that was a bad example if anything. It doesn't support his point.



> Not at all - he's conveying a concept through actions and situations, which is what showing is.


He's telling us what the actions were.

_“The mornings after Kenny had stayed out, beyond the last bus, until he’d had to bum a ride or pay for a cab and got home to find Monica faking sleep, faking because she never slept that quiet, those mornings, she’d only put her own cup of coffee in the microwave. Never his.”_

Never in this narrative, even though it was an excerpt or possibly made up, did we get to experience Kenny's staying out, bumming rides and paying for cabs, or coming home to see him thinking Monica was asleep, then leaving her alone. We didn't get to see Monica's side either, pretending to be asleep, struggling to sleep, microwaving the coffee. 

If we actually went to one of those scenes...as if they were actual scenes we could go to, I'd see his point better. But all he did was make a simple premise much more complicated. As cluttered as that paragraph is, more periods would've at least made it more effective--and consistently so. The last sentence is an abrupt change, but it's not drastic and it feels forced.

But even then, we're still being told what happened.


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## crazymtf (Jun 4, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Well it always strikes me there's a balance between readability and depth of style to be struck - telling is always going to be more readable than showing because it's so simple and unsubtle.
> 
> It's up to authors to figure out the balance themselves, but I like palanhuik's thing because it helps force writers into writing without using telling as a crutch.



Indeed. It does help at times. It helped me create some awesome situations instead of just using the simple words to describe everything.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 5, 2014)

After a year or so of using this method I've begun to not really need to worry about when it's appropriate to do this. And some of the time I am even showing in ways that I don't think about it. A good example is this little passage here: 



> My Jetta is parked in a student lot beneath a robust oak tree. Annemarie stands with her butt resting against the passenger side window and her head down over her iPhone. She glances up, the light from the phone and the parking lot lights painting the hair on top of her head orange. “You didn’t text me.”



I can't remember if it was someone here or someone on Something Awful that pointed it out, but the bit about her butt being against the window of the car seems like something small when you read over it the first time. In truth it points out how tall she is (for a teenage girl to have her butt fully against the window of a car makes her a pretty good height). 

Since that's been pointed out I've tried to drop all direct references to her height and make it more like the reader will expect her to be tall, but there's nothing giving her height or anything. 

The thing about a balance between showing and telling is that you're usually better off doing the former more than you aren't. There are times when you can just tell, but this exercise helped me to learn that there was another way around the narrative that I wasn't realizing or writing. 

Most of the issue with Chuck's writing isn't to do with his description, it's to do with his characters basically all having the same voice as the narrator from Fight Club. It was an interesting thing for one or two books, but by the time I had read Diary and Choke I was pretty much done with his stuff. 

He was a lot cooler, as a writer at least, back when I was like twenty-two and the idea of writing gritty protagonists with nihilistic views intrigued me. I feel like I just grew out of the whole thing.


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## crazymtf (Jun 5, 2014)

^Basically how I feel about his work. His writing style is good enough but his characters are eh. I liked almost no one in fight club and one rare occasions where the movie handled them better.


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 5, 2014)

I change the title of "The Killing Joke" to "The Magic Trick".


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 5, 2014)

I am really having an issue with the title for my book because I want to make sure that I get the title that encompasses everything that I need it to and grabs just enough attention. I feel like I used to be a lot better at writing titles, but I used to be kind of shit at writing--so I swapped the two.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2014)

Here's something I have very mixed feelings about.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 6, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Here's something I have very mixed feelings about.



I think that when you are purposefully manipulative in a tried and true way it's less valid. Like how Avatar was when compared to something like District 9. In one very human looking, attractive aliens easily get sympathy because they have features that cause a sympathetic reaction in humans. Large eyes, they're attractive and so on. 

In the other the things couldn't look less attractive and in the end you feel sorry for them still. Maybe one didn't have the budget and man power the other did, but you feel like they worked a lot harder for it and like it was a lot less greed induced and manipulative in a cheap way.


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## crazymtf (Jun 6, 2014)

New short story I'm working on. Cover and synopsis done. Thanks Krory for a sick cover 

Shots ring throughout Low Valley High School. A masked person walking around with a shotgun killing off several students in the process. Find out the mystery of who is behind the mask, the reasoning for the slaughter, and the dark secrets of this little town.

Release Date: July 25th (Placeholder)

Link removed


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## Krory (Jun 6, 2014)

Glad you like it, brah.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 6, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> New short story I'm working on. Cover and synopsis done. Thanks Krory for a sick cover
> 
> Shots ring throughout Low Valley High School. A masked person walking around with a shotgun killing off several students in the process. Find out the mystery of who is behind the mask, the reasoning for the slaughter, and the dark secrets of this little town.
> 
> ...



I'm a bit envious of your ability to be able to make a release date and stick to it. I had no such luck with the date I was supposed to be ending all my work on the story I was doing.


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## Risyth (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm envious of those who can even imagine such a date.


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## crazymtf (Jun 6, 2014)

I have too many ideas in my head to not release on a orderly fashion. It drives me crazy when I don't write it and it is stuck in my head too long


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## Krory (Jun 6, 2014)

That must be nice. I can't write my stuff down because then I realize how stupid it all sounds.


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## crazymtf (Jun 6, 2014)

If someone can write Twlight and millions buy it, nothing is stupid. Just write, release, and let people judge.


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## crazymtf (Jun 7, 2014)

In a span of 7 days (Starting June 1st) I have written 48 pages on the laptop. That's the most I've written in that span in a long time. I think this short story is going to be special for me


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## crazymtf (Jun 11, 2014)

First trailer up for my new short story! 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Rin9RO9EY&feature=youtu.be[/YOUTUBE]


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 11, 2014)

I wish I had the time and resources to make little trailers.


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## crazymtf (Jun 12, 2014)

Can make one with ease, just try it out. Ask friends to help. It's how I'm able to create them at a decent speed. And I'm stuck with two jobs and a wedding to plan


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 12, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Can make one with ease, just try it out. Ask friends to help. It's how I'm able to create them at a decent speed. And I'm stuck with two jobs and a wedding to plan



I actually was trying to find someone to pose for a book cover photo for my main characters.


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## crazymtf (Jun 12, 2014)

Good way to save some money, that's for sure.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2014)

I forgot to do this report that's due tomorrow, so I am up doing that so my boss doesn't kill me. But I started working on something that I'm just feeling around with. It's kind of a miscellaneous end of the world thing, but with me trying my hand at the comedy and romance aspects of things a little more. Also, I'm writing from a male perspective for a change and basing a bit of it on some shit that happened to me in real life.


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## crazymtf (Jun 13, 2014)

^Are you male or female? Sorry, don't mean to offend, just curious based on what I read from your stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> ^Are you male or female? Sorry, don't mean to offend, just curious based on what I read from your stuff.



Male, but almost everything I have done that's in the first person is a female narrator. My novel is in third person and switches male and female and I know that main character's voice better. When I start writing something new I have to be careful because I don't everyone to sound like Lissette or Lewis or Holly or any of the others that I'm used to writing. 

I also only just started really working in first person as I hated it before and refused to ever do it. So that's why I made the comment about female narrators.


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## Risyth (Jun 14, 2014)

What experience do you think one needs to be able to write dialogue and actions for the opposite gender well?

That or relationships.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2014)

But by the same token, don't obsess over the differences either. One of the big failings of many male writers when writing female characters is they seem like a woman rather than a character.

So yeah, tricky balance.


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## Krory (Jun 15, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> But by the same token, don't obsess over the differences either. One of the big failings of many male writers when writing female characters is they seem like a woman rather than a character.
> 
> So yeah, tricky balance.



Although he isn't necessarily a good example of female characters and perspective (YMMV), as George R.R. Martin said, "I like to think women are people."


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 16, 2014)

One of the main goals I had when I made the characters for the story that used to be "Keep Austin Safe" was to try and make these female characters completely girlie and the way that society would teach us that women are meant to be, but show that this didn't contradict them being bad asses and that there isn't anything wrong with how they are. 

There are so many people who write women that they just treat like men to say that they're writing "Strong Female Characters" and there are characters like Buffy that are written as if them being tough is in contradiction to everything else them. 

One of my big things is trying not to treat all of the things that are considered femininity as bad. At the same time, I still want to make sure my characters aren't the perfect example of what people should be.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2014)

Done. 

I'm not sure what causes the massive tonal shift in some things that you see between the first part and the second part of a series. But I want to make sure that I never do that. Just watched Kick Ass 1 & 2 for the first time and while I enjoyed both the tone definitely felt much lighter in the second film.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 17, 2014)

I always see you lurking Happy Mask Salesman, but I've never seen you post.

Are you, too, an aspiring novelist?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2014)

Wait a minute, is there a girl version of Marth in your set?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 17, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> But by the same token, don't obsess over the differences either. One of the big failings of many male writers when writing female characters is they seem like a woman rather than a character.
> 
> So yeah, tricky balance.



People are people, and characters are characters.

If a character is well defined, you'll know what they think, and what they'll say, and what they'll do in situations.  That will be the case whether they are male, female, or oglop.  

But at the same time, you shouldn't be able to change any character's gender, and have nothing change about your story, unless they're a gender neutral character.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 17, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Wait a minute, is there a girl version of Marth in your set?



No, it's Judith, from Tales of Vesperia.  

Though I can now see how you might arrive at that conclusion...


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## Banhammer (Jun 17, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Done.
> 
> I'm not sure what causes the massive tonal shift in some things that you see between the first part and the second part of a series. But I want to make sure that I never do that. Just watched Kick Ass 1 & 2 for the first time and while I enjoyed both the tone definitely felt much lighter in the second film.



It was a case of trying too hard.

The first kick-ass third act blood bath comedy comedy bonanza was an unintentional accident, and something that only the movie truly took advantage of and brought out, making it obvious retroactively

The author then acted like that was his idea all along, and Kick Ass 2 overcompensated for it

For example, in the first book, part of the reason why hit girl is so fucking psycho is because before she goes into a huge fight, she shoots up a vial of cocaine straight up her nose, which big daddy had told her "was a secret formula developed by scientists"

What is suspension breaking and off putting in the books, becomes comedy and action gold in the movie, and that led to kick ass 2 :/


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Jun 17, 2014)

I sort of wondered when people would take notice. I've been lurking awhile, had a few ideas but could never particularly finish anything or flesh anything out to a point where I was satisfied. I've been bouncing a few ideas around a couple friends more recently, but have almost no idea of how or where I want to start or in what direction I want to take it. 

I feel like I need to sit down and take some time to at least throw everything onto paper and see where it ends up going, but I haven't really had the time. If I do get a draft up, I'll post it here, or at least link to docs and see what you guys think.


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## crazymtf (Jun 17, 2014)

My new book is out today! Paperback in 2-3 days! Let me know if grab it on either so can personally thank you


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## Nordstrom (Jun 17, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> One of the main goals I had when I made the characters for the story that used to be "Keep Austin Safe" was to try and make these female characters completely girlie and the way *that society would teach us that women are meant to be, but show that this didn't contradict them being bad asses and that there isn't anything wrong with how they are. *
> 
> There are so many people who write women that they just treat like men to say that they're writing "Strong Female Characters" and there are characters like Buffy that are written as if them being tough is in contradiction to everything else them.
> 
> One of my big things is trying not to treat all of the things that are considered femininity as bad. At the same time, I still want to make sure my characters aren't the perfect example of what people should be.



Perhaps my biggest pet peeve of all time. Society "expects" you to be "a certain way" and those who are "different" get nothing but bad rap for them.

It was one of the first things I did away with during the character creation process. I completely did away with all gendering, and instead went on to make characters the way I pictured them without assigning a gender to them. I also made sure to mesh large amounts of masculinity and feminineness in all characters, with some being more feminine or masculine regardless of gender. The protagonist itself is very feminine despite being a guy and this is a defining character trait of his, with his feminineness being a strength rather than a weakness... His love interest is however, rather masculine in a "chivalrous knight in shining armor blue prince" but this too, makes her more attractive and much stronger than the rest... Similarly, the main antagonists is an horribly bubbly and girlie magical girl, but this isn't what makes her evil, it's her belief that all men should be providers, breadwinners, manly, fearless and emotionless and never cry or emotion, whereas women should be courted and sought after and never risk themselves or be hurt or have to hold back their feelings and that they're "entitled" to servitude from men as a display of "chivalry"... This noticeable sickens most of the cast, who come from "advanced worlds" where anyone can be whatever they want to be and are judged by who they are, not what they are, and in s series where everyone is redeemed and nobody dies, she becomes the first and only casualty.

There's even an scene where he ice skates against a team of global female figure skating champions to show that his gender doesn't stops him from being better than them... In the end, the female Russian coach and female champion both want him on their team, much to the British champion's shock and he becomes the first male member of world's first figure skating mixed gender team and their ace in the hole. He also challenges the Swift all-girl Korfball team from Holland and defeats them with the first all male Korfball team known. You could say it's a guy's take on the "You Go Girl" trope, but with "You Go Boy" instead.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2014)

I can't really strip all of the gender away from the characters because they exist in a modified version of our world. Lissette would have been raised in this society. She's stronger than most human men at the start of the story and she's what's considered the peak of human potential because that's what it means to be half Angel. 

She's extremely girlie and loves dressing up and make up and all those other things, but she also doesn't care about societal pressure to be a good girl. She sleeps around, doesn't do relationships and she doesn't lose her agency (this was really important to me).

The difference for you is that (I think you said this) your characters are alien to our world or don't exist in it. I have to walk a line where I show how society makes them and how it treats things without endorsing it. Though not all of my characters' actions are endorsed either. 

Lissette is unnecessarily violent at times and decapitates her long lost brother simply because she wants to be an only child.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 17, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The difference for you is that (I think you said this) your characters are alien to our world or don't exist in it. I have to walk a line where I show how society makes them and how it treats things without endorsing it. Though not all of my characters' actions are endorsed either.
> 
> Lissette is unnecessarily violent at times and decapitates her long lost brother simply because she wants to be an only child.



The characters aren't necessarily alien to our world. You see, erm, CTK, in that world, that's the standard in the story, which is a multiverse. Everywhere, there are no gender roles or societal expectations. Earth is a literall oddball in this regard, and is perceived by most people from everywhere else in the same light we'd see Apartheid South Africa, with gender roles to them being no different from the racial segregation, and with males being akin to blacks (their society is pretty egalitarian, up to the point that women often feel more protective of men) and even humans from other worlds look down upon Earth's humans as being beasts for pressing each other...

That said, Earth's society is what influences the events to start, as in a prequel work, the protagonist's older brother Jade starts a crusade to make Earth more egalitarian (Most Central and South America and South Korea sinks by the end of the story) and was influenced by the words of the Spanish anthem and superheroes like Spiderman. So you could say he uses the good of Earth to purge it of it's own evil (and regains his lost innocence).

Because he lead a large scale alien (Sylvanian) intervention, humanity has become more like the rest of society, specially a Superpower Russia, a now democratic, Nordic-advanced North Korea and most breakaway Western European countries like Catalonia and Scotland. The "Western World" with a few exceptions like the CSA, Japan, Spain and France stay relatively normal as per current expectations.

On other news, what do you think of this geopolitical setup?

Also, I should mention that the US winds up breaking up into the US and the CSA, with the CSA being hailed as the successor country by prominence, even if the US (current US without the Confederate States) still exists (its Capital is Seattle now). Canada breaks into Columbia (British Canada) and the Quebecois Republic (which becomes a Great Power). South Korea is ravaged by plagues that return it to it's less developed country ruins and India, just like Latin America, sinks underwater. Also, East Germany, Catalonia, Venice, Sicilly and Scotland break away from their countries. With the exception of Spain, all of them become developing countries.

On good news, Alien Space Bats (Sylvanian Economic Charter Treaty or Syecte) develops Russia into a superpower as developed as Scandinavia, which then does the same to a Palestinian Federation that welcomes the people of Israel to stay and promotes Islam-Judaism peace, North Korea is freed from Kim, becomes democratic and develops into world's most advanced and freest country, the PRC becomes more developed than modern day France, New Zealand and Australia boom to become just like modern day United States, Spain defeats the UK in a naval engagement and reemerges as a Superpower, Scotland and Catalonia become like Switzerland, but align with Russia, Japan and Russia open their borders to each other and Japan's population, which booms again, moves to highly developed Sakhalin Oblast (people from both countries can live and work in the other country as if they were nationals) and Scandinavia and the Nordic countries fuse and mass immigration and an once more booming economy makes them into a highly diverse superpower, even discovering the HIV/AIDS and allergo-autoimmune diseases cures and helping in the development of Africa, which undergoes rapid development.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2014)

Seems a bit random really?

Why would Scotland, for example, become a developing country?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2014)

That does seem mostly random, I mean I have seen alternate histories with a CSA and things like that, but I'm not sure what events lead to this world being as you said for the most part. Is all of that plot important?


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## Nordstrom (Jun 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That does seem mostly random, I mean I have seen alternate histories with a CSA and things like that, but I'm not sure what events lead to this world being as you said for the most part. Is all of that plot important?



It is. Sylvanian forces cannot initiate mass migration onto Earth in an unfair society. Countries where companies and individuals hold a large amount of power are hard to control, as their culture cannot be influenced as easily if individual people hold the power, since many have specific desires and their pride keeps them from being bribed. The only way for Earth to become more hospitable was by bankrupting most of world's major companies so that countries where the country holds a large amount of power (Russia, Scandinavia, breakaway Europe) are the strongest. Since bribing a country with gargantuan amounts of foreign aid is much easier, these can easily be influenced to do as the Alien Space Bats see fit to make the planet more hospitable. So they manipulate major stock exchanges that are not in those countries to bankrupt most of the world's major companies that refuse to aid and this winds up collapsing most Western economies. South Korea is the most affected, as it devolves into it's Korean War self and Sylvanian led North Korea and the Russian Federation buy most chaebols, reversing migration from South to North. In the USA, sharply decreasing living standards and protests while waging a costly war against a Russia that just won't stay down prompt increased repression and mass protests demanding smaller government and more anti trust laws, as well as more protection against discrimination. This prompts the conservative South to secede from the US, with backup from the PRC, which is booming as well. The CSA aligns with the space aliens (all of this shit under the mask of being Russia aligned) and the US goes from Superpower to Great Power. As the UK is one of the economies affected by this "forced crisis", it falls into chaos as Scotland is given aid from Sylvania. Same stuff happens to Quebec, which also secedes from the burden of Canada (and takes the anthem with them) and also happens to Spain and Germany, which splits between East and West again.

Spain, Australia and New Zealand realize that if they stay the way they are, their economies would crash and burn, so they start nationalizing stuff, and then are given aid. Scandinavia receives it and, in order to deal with the influx of immigrant from an impoverished Western Europe, they become a single country. the DDR receives aid like most of Eastern Europe and the Non Aligned Movement countries, with the exception of Latin America and India, which sink due to the plot (the OP sword that melts the ice of Antarctica, the Arctic circle and Siberia to make them inhabitable and makes the American equator uninhabitable).



Tyrael said:


> Seems a bit random really?
> 
> Why would Scotland, for example, become a developing country?



Scotland doesn't, but the UK's economy collapses and Scotland is the only Kingdom within the UK that keeps an sturdy economy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2014)

With what I am working on I tried to go for the most simplistic world building I could use and still make it the world that I wanted this stuff to take place in. I really try not to mess with the way the countries of the world are set up and their history, even though I have a world that is clearly different. When I have to show that things are different from our world I just show them casually happening and let the reaction of the characters do the talking for the situation. 

You're going to have to do a lot of ground work to get all of these things you're talking about into the story and make it understandable to the reader. I mean you could go full exposition, but you've got a lot to explain and show and it's really going to make it kind of like that first ninety pages of Lord of the Rings where nothing happens but them explaining how the world is laid out and who lives where and what they eat. 

Does all of this take place during the books or is some of it in place before the book starts? Is it in the future or present or what? 

I'm just asking because this is a lot to take in and to happen, even if there's a global crisis the restructuring and alliances don't just fall into place over night. 

You have got your work cut out for you.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2014)

A wee thing I knocked out, have some ideas about how to continue but not sure if I will:



> It was the beginning of my life.
> 
> It was late April, the air lay heavy with humidity and everyone was crying. Rows of men, women and children all kitted in their best black and all ruining tissues and hiding their faces. Raggedy faced men heft legion of coffins with a grim and often strained expressions, pained by the physical exertion and maybe more.
> 
> ...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2014)

Okay, I like where this is going. The whole thing is going, this is an interesting little story here. Maybe we should work on something that's not about giant mice in space too. We could probably plot some wild shit out, you and me.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> With what I am working on I tried to go for the most simplistic world building I could use and still make it the world that I wanted this stuff to take place in. I really try not to mess with the way the countries of the world are set up and their history, even though I have a world that is clearly different. When I have to show that things are different from our world I just show them casually happening and let the reaction of the characters do the talking for the situation.
> 
> You're going to have to do a lot of ground work to get all of these things you're talking about into the story and make it understandable to the reader. I mean you could go full exposition, but you've got a lot to explain and show and it's really going to make it kind of like that first ninety pages of Lord of the Rings where nothing happens but them explaining how the world is laid out and who lives where and what they eat.
> 
> ...



There won't be much exposition as it will all be spread through the book (for one, the story is set up in Moscow) and small things here and there (his love interest asks him if he would like to go to East Germany for a festival, he mentions having friends in the Confederate States and says that during his transport's stop in Pyongyang, he bought himself a new scarf... That kind of stuff) that suggest the world has changed. All of this takes place before the story begins and the balance of power has already changed from West to East and North to South by the time the story starts.

Also, when Alien Space Bats offer your country 67.7 trillion US dollars for developing and providing aid to other countries, together with advanced economic planners and a modernization program meant to develop a decadent country into a highly developed superpower, people like Putin will do anything to get their hands on that aid.


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## Krory (Jun 18, 2014)

I was going to write something today, damn it.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 18, 2014)

Kroro, your inspiring autism never ceases to amaze me!


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## Krory (Jun 18, 2014)

If it's not one member making rape jokes, it's someone else making light of autism.  Do you people know no bounds?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2014)

Been thinking about models for my book cover to play Lissette, I only know one girl who fits the idea and she actually is closer in age than most of the girls on these covers tend to look. I don't know shit about contracts and licensing or any of that. 

So it looks like this is one more of those things I have to look up and learn about to press on, but I know I want a cover that looks realistic and not something drawn. And living in the city where the book takes place makes things a little easier.


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 19, 2014)

I have a cover for, my book drawn out in my head. It's a old looking painting with the four Citadels shown between a shining golden border with the Crown of the Four world in the center of it all. 

But I doubt the house would let that be the cover...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2014)

When you say the house what do you mean? 

You could commission someone to do it for you.


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## Krory (Jun 19, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I have a cover for, my book drawn out in my head. It's a old looking painting with the four Citadels shown between a shining golden border with the Crown of the Four world in the center of it all.
> 
> But I doubt the house would let that be the cover...



That sounds cool but data suggests that statistically people are more inclined to buy a book if the cover is a large picture of Gary Busey.

So just keep an open mind about that!


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## Nordstrom (Jun 19, 2014)

krory said:


> If it's not one member making rape jokes, it's someone else making light of autism.  Do you people know no bounds?



Someone had to make a fun of monarchy, and that'd be me.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Been thinking about models for my book cover to play Lissette, I only know one girl who fits the idea and she actually is closer in age than most of the girls on these covers tend to look. I don't know shit about contracts and licensing or any of that.
> 
> So it looks like this is one more of those things I have to look up and learn about to press on, but I know I want a cover that looks realistic and not something drawn. And living in the city where the book takes place makes things a little easier.



I've had two different covers designed since the project ended development a few months ago. One is a professional commissioned cover from a friend who works at Alfaguara, and the other is something me and a few friends made after looking at Twilight covers, since we attempted to create a contrast, and the cover was to reflect this... A third, unfinished design would feature a gryphon heraldic as a counterweight now that the Hunger Games are out... Asking a friend's friend (known on dA as Noriko Hayashi or Noririn, who designed Vocaloid Maika's cover art) for a hand at designing an illustrated cover have also been weighted, but I am in bloody Martorell and more often than not I'll be either in France, Germany (stuff to do with a friend), or, if I felt like humoring my former boss, Buenos Aires and London. I'd need a long span of free time (more than four weeks fully certain that I won't be going anywhere) to talk to my friend and see if we could actually meet IRL and commission her for it (since this would be elaborated, I'd need to be there personally to see the process) since I think she does live in Barcelona.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2014)

Happy Mask Salesman said:


> I sort of wondered when people would take notice. I've been lurking awhile, had a few ideas but could never particularly finish anything or flesh anything out to a point where I was satisfied. I've been bouncing a few ideas around a couple friends more recently, but have almost no idea of how or where I want to start or in what direction I want to take it.
> 
> I feel like I need to sit down and take some time to at least throw everything onto paper and see where it ends up going, but I haven't really had the time. If I do get a draft up, I'll post it here, or at least link to docs and see what you guys think.



It's nice to see you break your silence, and you seem cool to boot.  I was beginning to worry we'd all meet with a terrible fate if you did.

I recently ran into what might be a similar problem with a few story ideas I had.  Getting the idea was easy, and I had some scenes that were fun to discuss, but when it came from writing it, I figure out which perspectives to use, whether to use first person, third person, omniscient, limited, which way to introduce the story and start chapter one, and otherwise answering what I consider the hard questions that carve out the world, and I wasn't sure what to do with it.

If you find time to share something, I'm sure I and a few others would be happy to take a look at it.  If I could ask you a question though, what sort of stories and ideas do you find interesting, and how do you develop them?


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Jun 21, 2014)

I tend to like a lot of different things in terms of subject matter, but in terms of my own writing, I change frequently depending on frame of mind, etc. Generally, I have a tendency towards adventure and/or an unsettling tone. It's a bit hard for me to explain without putting a sample up, but I haven't written anything in awhile and don't know exactly how my style has changed since the last time. 

As for development, I am admittedly terrible with dialogue, so I tend to show more of the environment and focus more on actions than speech, even when I write in first person. 

I tend to be the same way with ideas. Typically I bounce them around my cluster of friends and determine whether I want to start working on them through their reactions. Generally, they are approving, but some are more critical than others. A decent chunk of the time I just try and wing it, let the story come to me as I write, which works sometimes, but leaves the rest in a sort of jumbled mess. When I do prepare and write my ideas out beforehand, it tends to have a bit more success in getting past my initial process of scrutiny.


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> When you say the house what do you mean?
> 
> You could commission someone to do it for you.



The publishing house.


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## Tyrael (Jun 21, 2014)

You'd be surprised by how powerful the booksellers are in choosing the cover for a book.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 21, 2014)

Oh yeah and all of the rules they have when it comes to what they want on the cover. It's why YA covers look so similar, especially paranormal romance YA. A friend of mine has gotten really good at interpreting the tone of books by the cover. 

Also covers don't have anyone non-white on them, even if that means the characters look nothing like the people inside of the book (which they usually don't anyway). Dystopian YA usually doesn't have people on the front (Hunger Games and Divergent). Romantic YA almost always does when it's paranormal, if it's not it usually doesn't either (Fault in Our Stars esque). 

Go to the bookstore sometime and stand in a section and look at the covers. The facing, the positioning of the characters, the types of characters you'll see--they're all super similar.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh yeah and all of the rules they have when it comes to what they want on the cover. It's why YA covers look so similar, especially paranormal romance YA. A friend of mine has gotten really good at interpreting the tone of books by the cover.
> 
> Also covers don't have anyone non-white on them, even if that means the characters look nothing like the people inside of the book (which they usually don't anyway). Dystopian YA usually doesn't have people on the front (Hunger Games and Divergent). Romantic YA almost always does when it's paranormal, if it's not it usually doesn't either (Fault in Our Stars esque).
> 
> Go to the bookstore sometime and stand in a section and look at the covers. The facing, the positioning of the characters, the types of characters you'll see--they're all super similar.



Hmm... If someone where to do a polar opposite of Twilight, how would the cover be? It's a YA paranormal romance yet it has nobody on it's cover.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 21, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Hmm... If someone where to do a polar opposite of Twilight, how would the cover be? It's a YA paranormal romance yet it has nobody on it's cover.



Most of the ones since then have been in a certain style. It's kind of different for that reason, but it was the start of all this.

Chris (Tyrael) and I have been working together on a project about Witches in other news. We're both taking a character and writing her.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2014)

I've never given much thought to advertising my book. I used to have an idea about what my cover would look like but it really doesn't matter because more than likely it won't be my decision. I just hope it won't be awful. So many fantasy covers are awful.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 22, 2014)

It depends on the kind of fantasy. A lot of the worst books seem to have beautiful covers. For example: 



This book is horrible and extra rapey, but the cover looks interesting and it's a break from the regular covers of that genre. 

I hate a lot of the high fantasy and space science fiction covers. They're just really upsetting because of how they always seem to heave the worst art.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 22, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It depends on the kind of fantasy. A lot of the worst books seem to have beautiful covers. For example:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My cover for the book only has a few options... From a "daylight Twilight" to an emblem a la Mockingjay to an anime inspired cover featuring the main character flying looking at the viewer with his friends flying in the background with Moscow underneath and the sun rising on the horizon...


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 22, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh yeah and all of the rules they have when it comes to what they want on the cover. It's why YA covers look so similar, especially paranormal romance YA. A friend of mine has gotten really good at interpreting the tone of books by the cover.
> 
> Also covers don't have anyone non-white on them, even if that means the characters look nothing like the people inside of the book (which they usually don't anyway). Dystopian YA usually doesn't have people on the front (Hunger Games and Divergent). Romantic YA almost always does when it's paranormal, if it's not it usually doesn't either (Fault in Our Stars esque).
> 
> Go to the bookstore sometime and stand in a section and look at the covers. The facing, the positioning of the characters, the types of characters you'll see--they're all super similar.



I doubt whatever cover they use for my book would make much sense. 


Oh lordy... I hope the publishers don't try to ask me to put Melissa in a relationship with someone because it won't work. I don't have much of a romance theme to my book except for that one time where Melissa kisses a vampire demon thing and when Jackson tries to kiss Melissa. Other than that, I'm like no. Romance is overrated.

(Melissa dies as a 23 year old virgin )


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## crazymtf (Jun 22, 2014)

I think all my books have romance in it...except Sons or Puppet. Mostly because those are about death and killing lol.


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## Cjones (Jun 23, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> You'd be surprised by how powerful the booksellers are in choosing the cover for a book.



I hear booksellers have the vast majority of say so when it comes to things of that nature. Unless you're like Rowling lvl. That true?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> My cover for the book only has a few options... From a "daylight Twilight" to an emblem a la Mockingjay to an anime inspired cover featuring the main character flying looking at the viewer with his friends flying in the background with Moscow underneath and the sun rising on the horizon...



I would advise against using anime inspired anything in a cover. A publisher would be hard pressed to do it for sure. 


Malicious Friday said:


> I doubt whatever cover they use for my book would make much sense.
> 
> 
> Oh lordy... I hope the publishers don't try to ask me to put Melissa in a relationship with someone because it won't work. I don't have much of a romance theme to my book except for that one time where Melissa kisses a vampire demon thing and when Jackson tries to kiss Melissa. Other than that, I'm like no. Romance is overrated.
> ...



Romance as a focus sells a  lot of books. I mean when you look at the best seller list there's trace elements of romance in most of them. The even the books that are really bloody and the like. Romance is a good motivator when used right, but it's also a bad crutch that a lot of people seem to get hung up on. 




Cjones said:


> I hear booksellers have the vast majority of say so when it comes to things of that nature. Unless you're like Rowling lvl. That true?


They do. Rowling and King and Gaiman and those types have a say, but they're like rock star status now.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

Stories with large casts that lack any sort of romance feel like something is missing to me.  At least, if there's opportunity for it.  I recognize that it doesn't fit everywhere.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Stories with large casts that lack any sort of romance feel like something is missing to me.  At least, if there's opportunity for it.  I recognize that it doesn't fit everywhere.



I have multiple romances in play to different degrees. Lewis and his wife, Ava. After she dies Lewis and Holly. Lissette and Death. Annemarie and Daunte...

I don't focus on them too much, but there are some moments where it happens. I went from never wanting to touch a sex scene to felling somewhat comfortable with using them to convey characters' emotional states. Most of the sex Holly and Lewis have for instance is pretty much them licking each other's wounds after realizing that they helped usher in the end of reality with a mistake they made. 

The cast I'm working with is big and complex and it really could use some shrinking down. I have been trying to consolidate the roles into people and cut the people that I don't need.


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 23, 2014)

Though I like the _Mortal Instrument_ series, Cassandra Clare hangs on to doing the romance way too much. 85% of the book is relationship stuff and the other 15% is plot. Like really...Everyone's in a fucking relationship in that series and there's hardly any drama.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Though I like the _Mortal Instrument_ series, Cassandra Clare hangs on to doing the romance way too much. 85% of the book is relationship stuff and the other 15% is plot. Like really...Everyone's in a fucking relationship in that series and there's hardly any drama.



I am actually embarrassed at how much I enjoyed those books. They go nowhere and they seem to assume that someone is supposed to believe that there is any way someone would meet their brother and continue to think about fucking him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

Well, I think it's a balance.  I don't like stories where everyone is shipped with everyone, or even fanfictions that do that, if the story isn't supposed to mainly be a romantic comedy.  But anytime you have a fairly large cast, it only seems natural for a few of them to be in romantic relationships, with each other or other people.  Otherwise it seems like the single's club got together their most asexual members and sent them to save the world.  Which would actually be a good idea, because way too many heroes and heroines are more concerned with whether their squeeze likes them, or _like_ likes them, when they should probably be focusing on the task at hand.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Well, I think it's a balance.  I don't like stories where everyone is shipped with everyone, or even fanfictions that do that, if the story isn't supposed to mainly be a romantic comedy.  But anytime you have a fairly large cast, it only seems natural for a few of them to be in romantic relationships, with each other or other people.  Otherwise it seems like the single's club got together their most asexual members and sent them to save the world.  Which would actually be a good idea, because way too many heroes and heroines are more concerned with whether their squeeze likes them, or _like_ likes them, when they should probably be focusing on the task at hand.



It's the popular thing, but there are some books out there about married heroes and heroes who just don't end up with anyone. I think most of the time the love at least feels like it belongs. The most shoehorned, horrible romance makes its way into the Mistborn series and I think it upset me most of all. 

So before Tyrael even sees it, this is the bit I'm thinking about using for my character in the witches thing. 



> My sister is on a Google Voice call from all the way back in New Orleans regaling me the tale of her hot date with a ball player from LSU. I?d have other adjectives for a night that ended with some point guard trying to slip his fingers up me skirt. I mean, she?s too old to be getting finger fucked in the back of a trolley or streetcar or whatever it is?I know I certainly am.
> 
> The Tube back to Southampton is mostly empty; even so I shouldn?t have taken this one on speaker. A white haired lady with a face like a crinkly tomato is staring at me through the narrow slits of her eyes.  She?s clutching a horrid dog that might have been white at some point in the last century.
> 
> ...


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

> Dad married a jazz musician.



The Dad has good taste.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2014)

There's a lot of cellphone talk and specifics.  I'm not sure how I feel about it, since while it is good to be specific, I don't really like dating my work.  On the other hand, it does exactly do that, and that tells you about the time and the world, which is good if that's what you're going for.  

For the rest I'm more liberal with my enjoyment.  I like to see people use magic or abilities for mundane tasks.  Stopping a cellphone from cracking when it's dropped is a really good instance.  It's one of those thing where, in real life, you think, "If I had telekinesis that plate wouldn't be broken."  That's what makes magic cool, even if, like the character here, you have limited magic.  The way you introduced the scope was nice as well.  She can make a person bump their head, but she'd get a severe nose bleed.  She can stop a cellphone sized object instinctively.   

There are a few other bits that bother me though.



> My thumb taps the red X on the screen of mobile before she can put up a protest.





> the flat finder





> some chav





> I spent most of my youth in New Orleans.



For someone who grew up stateside, and deep south stateside, and whose upbringing distanced them from their family and cultural ties as you seem to hint, I don't really expect them to be so instinctual with British terminology.  Mobiles are called phones or cells exclusively, flats are called apartments or studios exclusively, chav doesn't exist, ect.  I can accept flat because they were flat finders, and chav I suppose, but mobile less so.  All of them together is weird for me.  It's possible she could have acclimated quickly on her return, or learned to speak exclusively from her father, but it still comes off a little weird that she defaults exclusively to that dialect.  Of course I don't really know enough about the character, but this is the kind of thing I would note as odd while reading, and keep in the back of mind.  Wondering if it's because the author isn't really familiar with American terms, or didn't think about it, or if there's an explanation, and just keeping it in mind as I learn more about the character, and finding out how she's supposed to be while I match it up with how she is.  Not that I'm telling you you should sprinkle in terms if it would come off as unnatural for you, since that would likely be worse, but it's just an observation and perspective.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

The thing is I refuse to treat Americans like we're the only ones on the planet. This character might say some things that are more American sounding than not, but it's partially because she grew up in two places (moving between New Orleans and the UK). I feel that's a good explanation and a good backstory for someone. The little Australian waitress at the hookah bar I frequent says a word that doesn't fit in Texas every one in a while, but she's also saying things that show she's been in Texas far longer than a few years. 

Harry Potter is filled with Britishisms. Confessions of a Shopaholic is both filled with them and gives exact dates of years and months when it takes place. Harry Potter actually does too if you read closely (though in the case of Harry Potter she makes some mistakes, like saying that Dudley got a Playstation in the summer when it didn't come out till that following winter even in the states and back then it would have come out later than that for the UK). I've read Doctor Who novels where dates and songs on the radio from that time were given too, one guy just had a hard on for the early 90s. 

My point is that there's no such thing as not dating your work. If I wrote it where she never made a call on a cellphone and people didn't talk about the internet then everyone would assume I'm being deliberately obtuse to make it harder for characters to do certain things or that it takes place sometime before those things had solidified themselves. 

The novel Gone Girl (one of my favorites) has a lot about the late 90s internet boom and how all the writers and journalists who graduated to what would have been life long jobs in other time periods soon found themselves broke and looking for work in small town papers. 

We're going to date ourselves no matter what we do and we're going to show our region and all of that. If I called sodas soda, then someone would know where I was from. I prefer not to worry about it because I've seen more published books with things so specific like that and the advice seems to always come from literature students who don't seem to realize how dated Chaucer and Shakespeare are or people who have heard it said and think that the advice sounds good. 

I wrote this: 



> Annemarie locks her phone and slips it back down the front of her top. She’s all dresses, skirts, blouses and tights. She hasn’t worn anything with a fucking pocket since Pok?mon cards were the in thing.



I was counting on it dating the story really. Most of the things I write take place in specific time.


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## crazymtf (Jun 23, 2014)

Here's chapter 1 of my new short story I'm working on. It's called Low Valley High. If you see anywhere I can improve something let me know. My writing style is the way it is, so if you don't think it's descriptive enough chances are that won't change. However, if you find words used to often (Bravado for one, changing that soon) then let me know. Also, if you see any grammar/spelling mistakes also let me know. Thanks guys  Hope you enjoy! (P.S. - This is a dark subject. So if you are uncomfortable reading about school shootings do NOT read it.)


*Spoiler*: __ 



The mask fit the face well. The gloves were uncomfortable to say the least, but they would do the job. The all black attire matched the goal at hand. The black boots fit perfectly and shined with that newly bought look. The black metallic handgun sat firmly on the belt of the masked person who now sat, crouched, in the abandoned locker room. They unzipped their back and saw the pump action shotgun and four rounds of ammunition; the weapon of choice, but the handgun was a nice backup plan.  
	They scooped up the large firearm and listened intently on the first target. Inside the showers a lone whistling could be heard. Singular. Whoever was in there was isolated and that was how the plan was set. So far everything was going perfectly and the masked person just needed to execute the order. 
	As the assailant slowly tip toed towards the soon to be victim they thought how little they truly cared about death anymore. To be young and scared of death would mean to be scared of living. You were supposed to feel invincible this early in life. They smiled at the very fact the person inside the shower was about to face the executioner well before his expected time. The fact he deserved it was just icing on the cake. 
	Paul whistled as he massaged soap through his long hair. The masked person couldn't put a thumb on which song but it sounded familiar enough. They watched as Paul kept his eyes shut, rubbing his naked body, trying to get himself clean. It felt almost odd to watch a man trying to clean himself before his death. Like the calm before the storm, everything seemed all too peaceful in those few moments.
	?Paul,? The masked person said. 
	The High School student turned around and opened his eyes. Soap slipped in and he fluttered but not before seeing a barrel pointed at him. He went to step back but instead slipped on the soapy floor and hit the ground with a heavy thud. He tried scampering away but his backside met the wall in mere moments. He rubbed his eyes with his soaked arms and though he could see some now, much was still blurry. 
	?What the fuck is this?? Paul wondered. 
	?It's nothing you didn't have coming,? the masked person responded. They leaned forward some, putting the gun only a few feet away from Paul, and looked him in the eyes. ?Do you have anything to say?? 
	?Woah, please man. I don?t know what this is but don?t do it, please. Don?t shoot, please.? More pleases and don't kill me followed. Over and over again the same words fumbled out of his mouth. The masked person cared very little for the pleading. 
	?I heard you don't care very much for beggars. In fact, you think they should shut their mouth and take what's coming to them. Isn't that right?? 
	?What the...how did you know that? Who are you?? Paul looked away from the gun at that moment and peered into the eyes behind the mask. He saw no resemblance of anyone he knew. 
	?Doesn't matter,? The masked person muttered as they pulled the trigger. Blood gushed out as the shot rang through the showers, as the first of the four victims lay bleeding. The shower continued on doing its job and sprinkled on top of Paul's now headless body. Watery blood washed down the drain, and the shooter was reminded of a paint they used to use. They suppressed a chuckle.
	No time to waste. 
	The masked person turned and began to walk towards the exit of the locker rooms. The first target was the easy one. The two others shouldn't be much harder, being less than thirty seconds away. The last would be tricky but they had a plan. Now they just hoped people didn't scatter at the sound of the shotgun firing. It was loud but kids very rarely think it's a school shooting till they see a gunman. Still, everyone would be on high alert and teachers would be checking in the halls for the source of the sound. 

	When the masked person woke up this morning they ate less than a half of bagel. The stomach of the killer growled loudly, and they wanted nothing more than a double cheese burger right now, anything to sate them. Is food even a rational thought when going on a killing spree? The masked person figured not but it was all they could think of at this moment. The vision blurred some and masked person knew it could only be from hunger.
	Simon looked up from his text on his phone when he heard the gunshot. It was loud enough that everyone on the second floor must have heard it. He looked towards John, one of his best friends since grade school, and whispered. ?Yo, what was that?? 
	?Fucked if I know,? John responded, trying to get a peek outside the door to his classroom. 
	Mr. Rombuckle got up from his chair and huffed. A man with an extra eighty pounds on him wanted nothing more than to sit in his chair, let his kids do some work, and get through his day at school, one period at a time. Now he had to check on what idiot was shooting off sound effects out in the hall. He wondered if it could be fireworks again. He remembered one year some kids placed seventeen fireworks in one of the bathrooms. The school was in such a panic that the cops were called, but by the time they realized it had just been some fireworks half of the student body was home. He wondered if the same thing was happening again. He sure hoped not, he didn?t need the headache.
	?Stay seated. I will go check to see what hellion out there is causing this ruckus. You all stay in here.? He looked at Simon. ?You especially stay seated.? 
	?I got you Mr. R.? Simon responded but a wolfish grin appeared once the teacher looked away. He had other plans. 
	?I think we should go through the back and check it out,? Simon whispered to his friend. 
	?Screw that. Sounded like a gun or something,? John said. His imagination thinking up all manner of dangers. 
	?Gun? Come on dude, we live in South-fucking-Carolina. Ain't nobody going to bring a damn gun to school. These pussies? Come on.? Simon's grin expanded further than one might expect, leaving his face ghoulish. 
	?Nah dude, just chill out. We wait here and see what Mr. R says.? John played it cool but inside he wanted to jump out of the desk and run to his mother. 
	?Damn dude, you a big 'ol pussy.? Simon waved away his friend and stood up. 
	Mr. Rombuckle was looking outside his classroom but saw nothing. Two other teachers were doing the same, but they quickly returned to their students. He looked to see Simon standing now heading towards the other exist door to the classroom. ?Mr. Wilson. Get your behind back in that seat.? 
	?I'm checking the scene out Mr. R, chill.? Simon opened the backdoor to the classroom. 
	?Hi,? The masked person said and fired away. John only caught his friend flying through the room as blood flew in every direction. Kids seated closest to the back got it the worst. Emily, a quiet girl, was in total shock as the boy she knew for seven years was now spread out on the floor, his chest ripped open. Simon's eyes were open so wide that it looked like they were gaping with awe and wonder, not cold detachment. He gulped once or twice, a word trying to escape, but with no such luck. The bullet wound was fatal and a moment later blood spilled out of his mouth to cement his death. 
	The entire class broke into a frenzy of yelling and crying. Most of the class moved like a wave to the opposite end of the room. Mr. Rombuckle stepped forward, and for the first time in his existence, cared about every single kid in the room. He stepped in front of everyone he could, covering them all behind his massive arms, and edged towards the shooter. ?Leave, now.? He spat with both fear and bravado. 
	The killer looked at them all, then the shotgun, then back to them. ?You think I'm here to kill you all? You couldn't be more wrong.? The killer nodded towards John, who was behind Cindy, a girl he had once dated some time ago. He got inside her shorts and then out of the relationship just as fast, the whole thing only lasted six weeks. That didn't seem to matter now as they were huddled together for protection. 
	?You shot a boy. You killed him.? Mr. Rombuckle pointed to Simon. ?What kind of animal does that?? 
	?The kind who only seeks vengeance for what has transpired behind the false curtains everyone so easily keeps up.? The masked person took a step closer. 
	?I said, stay the hell away!? Mr. Rombuckle began to walk towards the killer. 
	The masked person pointed the gun towards the teacher. All the brave wishful thinking vanished in a instant and all Mr. Rombuckle could think about was his nagging wife and six year old daughter. How he wished he called in sick today so he could be sitting at home having, what they both considered, decent sex and cooking a meal for when their daughter got done with kindergarten. Now, instead, he faced a shotgun pointed directly at his stomach. All that extra fat wouldn't save him from bullets meant to pierce through human flesh. 
	?I am not here to hurt you, Mr. Rombuckle. You can go home tonight to be with your wife and kid. Nothing in your life will change.? The masked person turned the attention of the class back towards John. ?Him, however, has to pay for what he has done.? 
	?I didn't do shit man. I didn't do shit!? John cried from the back of the room. 
	?Oh, but you did. You did plenty. You ruined a life. That person will never be whole again. Do you understand that?? The masked person cranked their head slightly to the right. The look gave the impression of doubt. 
	?What the heck are you talking about?? John asked, and the voice sounded loose, almost a fake confusion with it. Wilson, another classmate, ran out of the room. Nobody, including the gunner, made a move. They watched in awe as the person left, wondering if the gun holder was telling the truth about their target.


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## crazymtf (Jun 23, 2014)

Part 2 - 

*Spoiler*: __ 



“Every single thing you've done in your pathetic life has a consequence. The thing is, you get to get away with a lot. Money, fame, deals. They all keep you safe from the trials many regular folk have to answer to.” The masked person took another step closer to their next target. 
	“Listen dude, I have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. I'm just a kid who--” 
	“No!” Don't do that!” The shooter  shouted so loud everyone, including the teacher, jumped. The pain felt in the voice was staggering to Mr. Rombuckle. This was no random act of violence but premeditated planning of vicious revenge. 
	The masked person took a big breath in and relaxed some. “Don't act like you can't own up to your actions. You did what you did, at least fess up to it.” The eyes were glued to the third target now. 
	“I have no clue what you're even talking about,” John finally said, words coming out soft. 
	The masked person shook their head and stepped closer, this time the shotgun was aimed at the target's head. Everyone scattered but John was too afraid to move. He had watched as the killer walked up to him and placed the tip of the gun to his head. “You will confess or I will blast your head right off your goddamn shoulders.” 
	Mr Rombuckle slowly snaked his way out of the view of the shotgun wielder. He was surprised by his swiftness but he would celebrate later for his stealth as long as he could stop this person from hurting another one of his student. He slowly but surely made his way closer with each small step. His plan was to jump, handle the shooter with one hand, while using his free hand to smack the butt of the gun away from the killer. If the gun was gone he would have that moment to relax and not worry about getting shot. Flashes of becoming a town hero began to shoot through his mind but he kept focused. He had to do the saving before becoming the hero. He was only a step or two away from being able to lunge at the shooter. 
	The shooter turned and at point blank range fired. Mr. Rombuckle could only remember waiting twenty six years to do something people would remember him for. Teaching was fun and all but he would never be known after his students moved on to college. High School was most kids worst nightmare. So why would anyone remember him? No. Saving a whole class from a maniac killer would be impressive. Everybody would have those thoughts stapled in their minds and passed down to generations to come. 
	He didn't get that though. He got a shotgun pulled to his stomach. As he felt himself shifting backwards, almost flinging opposite of the weapon, he could only wonder one thing. Why had he not tried to have Kristen, his daughter, sooner? He was forty six and waited till he was thirty nine to even attempt to have kids. He would never see her grow old now. Her thin but long blond hair that shined in the sunlight would grow out, she would get taller, and her body would one day transform her into a beautiful young lady that he could be proud of, but one he would never see. Now he just wondered what she looked like this morning. No matter how hard he tried he could not picture his daughter this morning despite taking her to school. Did she have a red dress on? Blue? Did she have a ribbon in her hair? “Goddamn it...” He mumbled to himself, lost in thought as everyone in his class gasped. He stumbled back some more, then fell, desk with him, and slammed into the ground. He was dead on impact. 
	The class did not move. A wave of horror struck each and every single one of them. Claudia, class leader, began to sob uncontrollably. She had loved her teacher for being kind and generous and teaching her many things. Now she looked at the professor with his guts spilling out on the floor. She wanted to throw up but the shock of it all was too much. Meanwhile, Jason, who claimed to never give a darn about anything, seemed to care very much at this point. He realized in these last few minutes how much he wanted to stay alive. 
	John peed his pants and began to cry as well. Most of the students had begun to lose it. Many cowered at the sight of the masked person. “Damn it. He shouldn't have done that,” the masked person said. 
	“You fucking killed him. Goddamn it man, you killed him.” Peter said from the left. He cut more school than anyone else, yet the one day he decided to come to class this event had taken place. He knew bad luck had a grudge against him but this seemed almost too spiteful. 
	“I had no choice. This situation needs to be handled. Now.” The masked person put the gun on John's face. “Confess right now or suffer the same fate. Your choice.” 
	“I don't...don't...know...” John said between sobs. 
	“When you did what you did, were you this scared? Did you feel the anxiety rise up your leg, settle in your stomach, and make you want to throw up? Did you feel any of that? Or did you enjoy every single second of it?” The gun shoved John into the wall. 
	“I'm sorry! Please! Please! It wasn't my idea. It was Mark. It was his fucking idea. I didn't do anything. I tried to stop him. I swear to God!” John wailed and tears came streaming down his cheeks. The class began to drift away from the crying boy, not waiting to get shot in the process. 
	“You didn't do anything?” 
	“Nothing. I swear it,” John nodded, feeling a small ounce of hope slip in. 
	“Didn't lay a finger on them?” 
	“No. No man. I swear. I swear. It was all Mark. Me and Simon didn't do shit man. We...we just watched. I tried. I mean....please man put the gun down” 
	The masked person began to lower his weapon. “So you two had nothing to do with the act, just bystanders?” 
	“Yeah, dude, we just watched. I swear, I tried to stop him. Them.” 
	“You know what I hate more than anything?” The masked person asked John in a cheery type of tone. 
	“What?” John asked, almost laughing at the baffling kind voice change in the killer. 
	“Liars,” The masked killer pulled the trigger and the shotgun blew away John's groin. The boy's mouth hung up and the pain was surreal. He toppled over and landed on his face and chest as his bottom leaked out with parts mixed with blood. The classroom broke into screaming once more and many of the students made a run for it. The masked person stopped none. Their goal was four targets, no innocents. The rule was broken when Mr. Rombuckle decided to be a hero but no matter. Mistakes happen. This mission had to be completed no matter the sacrifices.
	Mark was on the third floor when news came through that a class was held up on the second floor. His mind told him to run but his gut wanted him to check the scene. His friends were all on the same floor, putting them in danger if the shooter hung around there.  He had spent his younger days growing up with them and the thought of leaving them behind seemed impossible. He watched as most kids began to run down the stairs to the closest exits, teachers either following or guiding. He turned away from the moving crowd and went across to the other side of the building to head to the second floor. 
	Mark had been a part of his group of friends as long as he could remember. They had all gotten together when they were six or seven years old, and had grown closer to each other than they were with their respective families. Mark had a family he had chosen, and he couldn’t leave that behind. Never could he leave them behind. Any petty differences between them didn’t matter at a time like this. They were his family.
	“They probably bailed already. Nobody would fuck with us. We the dream team baby,” He assured himself. He wouldn't have considered them bullies but more the cool kids that no one messed with. The groups of people in his school seemed fairly divided and while there were groups bigger around who claimed to be stronger nobody really messed with him or his crew. They were a family, and family didn't let anyone hurt each other.
	Mark hit the second floor double doors and began to open them. He could see how deserted the class rooms were as he walked the halls. Not a single soul in any of the seven he had passed. He began to wonder if this was all an elaborate prank of sorts, something like the firecracker incident a few years ago. 
	When he was about half way through the second floor classrooms he stopped. In front of him stood a masked person, wearing a black jacket and boots to match. These were all irrelevant compared to the gun that the person brandished. Thoughts flickered in his mind. “Sandy? No, too big. Jorge from sixth street? Nah, he too pussy to come here. Who the fuck is this?” As his mind fluttered the masked person turned to see his fourth and final target. 
	“Came right to me. Funny, I kind of was hoping my plan would do that. I didn't feel like chasing you all the way down Mil Avenue.” The masked person took a step towards Mark, and Mark matched that step backwards. 
	“Hold it right there. What the fuck did you do?” 
	“What did I do?” The masked person tilted their head. “Oh no, the question isn't what I did today. No sir. It is what you did. I mean, the attention should always be placed on the big star, right? You are the star of this little story after all.” 
	“What? 'Ay man, I don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about.” He opened his arms as if to say “what do you want from me” and that amused the masked person. 
	“I sometimes wonder what goes on inside that brain of yours. How you can have so little consideration for the actions you have committed.” 
	“If my actions caused something I'll deal with it. You, I have no clue who the hell you are. So back off.” Mark shrugged, trying to show how little he cared about the situation he was now stuck in. His bravado was the best in the business. If you didn't look scared, the killer had less ambition to kill you. 
	“Oh, I seriously doubt that in most cases. Especially this one in particular.” The masked person took a massive stride towards their final target, this time Mark did not retreat.


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## crazymtf (Jun 23, 2014)

Sorry about the triple post! Won't happen again lol. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



“You got beef with me? Fine. Put the gun down and face me like a man.” 
	“A man, huh? Most men I know wouldn't do what you did.” The masked person shook their head in disgust.
	“Ayo man, I don't get your problem but if you got it handle it like a man. Or a woman. That disguised voice you're using can go either way brah.” Mark laughed at his own joke. 
	“You think this is a game?” The masked person wondered. 
	“Only game I see is this guy or girl behind a mask thinking they’re tough cause they  holding a gun. You ain't tough, you just a bitch.” Mark tried to look around behind the person to see if his friends were anywhere but no sign of them. He figured they must have ran out of here when they were given the chance. Good. This was his deal, not theirs. 
	“I see. And fighting you hand to hand would prove I'm not a bitch?” The masked person asked, letting another two steps shorten their distance. Mark, stood steadfast, trying to hold his ground.  
	“Yeah. Come fight me hand to hand. I'll rip that mask off and prove you ain't shit.” 
	“See. If it was so simple I'd take this mask off, punch you in the face, climb on top, and smash your face in till you're dead. It's not that simple though. I can't take the chance of a slip up. If I screw up, it would all be for nothing. You need to die.” The masked person finished. This sent a shiver down Mark's spine. For a moment he believed he would have had a chance at a fair fight, but that didn’t seem likely anymore. 
	“So that's it? You gonna shoot me and walk away? You a pussy homie.” 
	“Pussy you say? I wonder which of your friends had the widest vocabulary? It seems none of you read a book past third grade.” 
	Mark felt his mouth almost go completely dry when he heard the word “friends”. “You know my friends?” 
	“Quite well, actually.” The killer took another step and stopped, now only a few yards away.  
	“Where they at?” Mark asked. 
	“Why do you care?” 
	“They my brothers, now tell me where they are!” Mark roared in anger. He almost had the balls to rush the gunman. Almost. 
	“Same as you will be in a few minutes. First, answer me, why did you do it?” 
	“What? Where are they?” Mark asked, getting fed up. 
	“Why did you do that? What was the purpose behind ruining someone's life? What could compel a person to do something so vile?” The masked person stopped stepping forward and pointed the gun towards his fourth target. 
	“Yo, answer my fucking question! Where my boys at!?” Mark's face flushed red and his tanned skin became bright. His mind swam and panic started to set in, rage overcoming his earlier bravado.  
	“Dead. I shot each of them with a shotgun. You were to receive one from it too but I unfortunately had to waste a bullet on a unlucky teacher.” 
	“You killed my friends?” Marked asked, a sinking feeling began to storm his stomach. He felt like crying and vomiting at the same time. He thought about all the times he hung out with them. When they ate, practiced in their horrible band, skipped school, hooked up with the same girls, smoked weed, drank. Now, all of that was gone. Never again. 
	“Answer me. Why did you do it?” The masked person asked once more. Finger perfectly placed on the trigger. 
	“You fucking killed them? You fucking killed them? You fucking killed them!” Mark came charging like a bull towards the gun pointed at him. Thoughts of safety and preservation were gone. He couldn’t get his friends back, so what did it matter? 
	“No. You killed them.” The masked person pulled the trigger. One shot directly into Mark's head. His head stopped dead as his feet kept moving, as if he had been lassoed before collapsing. The killer walked over to their final victim to see their work. Mark was dead as could be, his eyes were filled with rage and tears, but they were devoid of life.   
	The shooting on April fourth was nothing like the school had ever seen before. Such a calculated and carefully executed act of violence was shocking, and the deaths of four students and a member of staff hung heavy as the shooter waited patiently on the second floor. The police had been called, and it wouldn’t be long until they arrived.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

Since you said your style is your style, I'll keep my comments away from that, though it actually feels like there's a lot of extraneous stuff in there and repeated things that could be cut for the sake of brevity and making this punchier. 

The thing that sticks out most to me is the teacher thinking about being a hero. It just seems those thoughts wouldn't pass through his head. He would be more likely to be on edge and plotting his every movement while watching the killer. Him thinking about fame makes him seem far less sympathetic.


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## crazymtf (Jun 23, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Since you said your style is your style, I'll keep my comments away from that, though it actually feels like there's a lot of extraneous stuff in there and repeated things that could be cut for the sake of brevity and making this punchier.
> 
> The thing that sticks out most to me is the teacher thinking about being a hero. It just seems those thoughts wouldn't pass through his head. He would be more likely to be on edge and plotting his every movement while watching the killer. Him thinking about fame makes him seem far less sympathetic.



Oh no mention the repeated things please. This is just my first draft, and repetitive can get the better of me as times (Fucking King made me this way! I swear the dude repeats so much it makes me do the same lol) I just meant I won't change my style of writing in terms of the "feel" of it, if that makes sense. 

The teacher thing I actually took from a High School teacher I knew. We discussed in one day when we were talking about Eminem (Really odd convo, to break it down we go to the point when Eminem talks about shooting up the kids from school and it lead to us talking about school shootings). And he mentioned the fact he'd probably try to jump in between the shooter and kids. I asked why, and he said two reasons. One to protect the kids, it felt like it be his job. But unexpectedly he mentioned being a hero. This is a guy similar to one I described (With the exception of the weight) and he just said it straight out. We, as humans, usually do things to be remembered and he would do it partly for people to remember him saving kids. 

So that's why I've written it that way. Me, if I was a teacher, would never fucking do it. But when it comes to dying, it's my biggest fear so probably a pussy


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## Krory (Jun 23, 2014)

On the topic of book covers, it cheeses my crackers when there's some blatantly obvious incorrect design about the main character on the cover of the book than they are described.

Key thing I keep thinking about is Sabriel - described as having her hair styled in a shorter "fashionable bob" but the cover...



The new cover is much better.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Oh no mention the repeated things please. This is just my first draft, and repetitive can get the better of me as times (Fucking King made me this way! I swear the dude repeats so much it makes me do the same lol) I just meant I won't change my style of writing in terms of the "feel" of it, if that makes sense.
> 
> The teacher thing I actually took from a High School teacher I knew. We discussed in one day when we were talking about Eminem (Really odd convo, to break it down we go to the point when Eminem talks about shooting up the kids from school and it lead to us talking about school shootings). And he mentioned the fact he'd probably try to jump in between the shooter and kids. I asked why, and he said two reasons. One to protect the kids, it felt like it be his job. But unexpectedly he mentioned being a hero. This is a guy similar to one I described (With the exception of the weight) and he just said it straight out. We, as humans, usually do things to be remembered and he would do it partly for people to remember him saving kids.
> 
> So that's why I've written it that way. Me, if I was a teacher, would never fucking do it. But when it comes to dying, it's my biggest fear so probably a pussy


I figured it was a first draft. One of the things I would look for when I go back through it is any time that a statement is made about what's happening or what a character is thinking are there any other statements that repeat this thought without adding anything to it? If they do add anything, can you combine this added part into one sentence with the other part comfortably.


One of the things I remember being super stubborn about was adapting real life things over to the story and insisting that since they had happened this way the reader wouldn't be able to question it. On Writing Excuses a little while back they talked about this. One of them used the word "hat trick" in their writing and a lot of readers complained that it was jarring, even though the phrase is far older than we think. Another of the writers was explaining that the name Tiffany is fairly common in the Regency period, but writers writing that style romance don't tend to use it because of the modern day sound and connotation of the name. 

The point I'm trying to make is that even when we know a thing could happen or has, we don't always have the audiences understanding of that and it can be a little off putting. I doubt most of them will put a book down for it, but if it's at the beginning they might never pick it up.


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## crazymtf (Jun 23, 2014)

True, but it's not unlikely a person would do this action. Especially a teacher. Some teachers? No. Some? Yes. It's like questioning would the teacher in Salem's Lot really believe this non-sense and become a "hero" of sorts, or join the heroes, on a quest to kill the mighty vampire lord. 

The teacher has reason to try and stop the killer. One, he is their teacher. Two, he has the advantage of surprise attack. The final thoughts of being a hero while in the act isn't unheard of. Many times our own selfish desires sneak into a act of kindness. 

I understand what you're saying, but I really don't believe the teacher didn't have reason to do the act or anything wrong with his thought process. Now if he walked up to the killer and tried to punch him I'd understand. What would possess a human to do this even if the thought of being a town hero would happen? 

Sneaking around the killer with a chance to save his children while having thoughts of being something larger than a teacher? I think it's pretty believable. 

@Repeating - Indeed. This is my biggest problem. I feel some authors leave to little detail, some too much, and I feel like I'm stuck in between. Sometimes I hit a stride and it reads perfect, other times I put so much detail or movements into it I get annoyed at myself. Then I redo it. Now it's not enough. I put more. Back to it again, take out. See? This is why I'm letting an editor decide as a reader if he thinks something is too much. Believe me when I say what's up there was stuffed with way more (over detailed/repetitive parts) but cut down to what I think is almost a middle ground. 

Again, I blame Dean Koontz and Stephen King. Growing up these two were like my reading companions. I read them a lot now too and their knack for overstuffed stories hits me at times. I think it just might be my writing style haha


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 23, 2014)

krory said:


> On the topic of book covers, it cheeses my crackers when there's some blatantly obvious incorrect design about the main character on the cover of the book than they are described.
> 
> Key thing I keep thinking about is Sabriel - described as having her hair styled in a shorter "fashionable bob" but the cover...
> 
> ...



Oh my god, he has other books!!  I read the Keys to the Kingdom and it was the best series I've read in a long time! I _have_ to read his others! What book is that from?


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## Krory (Jun 23, 2014)

@Friday - It's a book series called _The Old Kingdom_ series.

It's currently three books - _Sabriel_, _Lirael_, and _Abhorsen_. There's another book that is a bunch of short stories that take place in the same world called _Across The Wall_. And the long-awaited prequel, _Clariel: The Lost Abhorsen_ is coming out in October. Fans of the series (I mostly only know of myself and Blunt right now) have been waiting for that book for years (was originally supposed to come out in 2010 or 2011). Supposedly he had an actual sequel (of sorts) for Abhorsen planned but no word on that.

There's also a novella called _To Hold the Bridge_ released in an Australian anthology called _Legends of Australian Fantasy_.

The books are all fabulous. Really, really great characters (and two fantastic female leads), a wonderful magic system for the world, excellent portrayal of concepts like death/afterlife and necromancers. It also blends some very nice modernism in it. And if you manage to find the audio books, they're read by Tim Curry who makes the dialogue of another amazing character, Mogget, absolutely perfect.

In celebration of the new book finally coming out, the original three are being released with new covers that has some amazing art (and an actual decent representation of Sabriel - as you can see from my example and what I mention of her, the first cover didn't do her justice - she's also supposed to be very pale, almost as pale as death, and the new artwork fits that suitably).


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## Risyth (Jun 23, 2014)

CTK, don't you ever just go with the flow on your revisions? ww


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## Nordstrom (Jun 23, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I would advise against using anime inspired anything in a cover. A publisher would be hard pressed to do it for sure.



From the sound of Alfaguara's contacts, they care less about the particular aesthetic and more about the cover looking appetizing. The reason is that it is the only kind of art that can illustrate the cover and characters. If I were to paint them in the same style as Harry Potter, it would look like someone peed over a panoramic of Moscow... There are too many translucent wings, energy swords, caster circles, pocket sized dragons and multicolored hairstyles that would be eyesores unless they were made that way...




> Romance as a focus sells a  lot of books. I mean when you look at the best seller list there's trace elements of romance in most of them. The even the books that are really bloody and the like. Romance is a good motivator when used right, but it's also a bad crutch that a lot of people seem to get hung up on.



Romance is the main point of my story, so I'm well set there. It started because the "paranormal romance" market for Young MALES in Western Literature is underdeveloped compared to the female and Japanese male romances (Vampire Academy, Twilight, Visual and Light Novels like Aria, Kampfer...) and wanted to turn our gender into reading (apparently, American Young Men hate reading, gee, I wonder why) and because I noticed that all romance books I could find where female oriented and wanted a book aimed at guys.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 24, 2014)

Risyth said:


> CTK, don't you ever just go with the flow on your revisions? ww



I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. Usually the time when I want to be less emotional and more detached.


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## Risyth (Jun 26, 2014)

If you have to craft emotional scenes, they aren't genuinely emotionally appealing to you, are they?

I'm saying, when you're revising a draft, aside from the typical grammar, it'd be better to write what a character would naturally say, as that'll most likely be what sounds best/more realistic when read. That is, what you'd naturally say if you were that character in whatever situation. Most of the time--I mean, there are some instances where crafting is preferable, but it shouldn't be a first choice.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 27, 2014)

Risyth said:


> If you have to craft emotional scenes, they aren't genuinely emotionally appealing to you, are they?
> 
> I'm saying, when you're revising a draft, aside from the typical grammar, it'd be better to write what a character would naturally say, as that'll most likely be what sounds best/more realistic when read. That is, what you'd naturally say if you were that character in whatever situation. Most of the time--I mean, there are some instances where crafting is preferable, but it shouldn't be a first choice.



They are.

And yes. More often that not, putting yourself in your character's shoes helps. Also, I have a new keyboard!!!


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## Tyrael (Jun 27, 2014)

It seems like a false dichotomy to separate being emotive with your prose and crafting your prose. Effective editing does both.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 28, 2014)

Risyth said:


> If you have to craft emotional scenes, they aren't genuinely emotionally appealing to you, are they?
> 
> I'm saying, when you're revising a draft, aside from the typical grammar, it'd be better to write what a character would naturally say, as that'll most likely be what sounds best/more realistic when read. That is, what you'd naturally say if you were that character in whatever situation. Most of the time--I mean, there are some instances where crafting is preferable, but it shouldn't be a first choice.



They're still emotional to me, if they weren't I wouldn't write them. 

I actually don't follow grammar either if they wouldn't when they're writing or speaking. I try writing conversationally, at least in first person.


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## Banhammer (Jun 28, 2014)

Crafting Emotional scenes isn't hard in of itself.

What is hard is carving out the context around it all that actually gives it any punch.

Simple humble things, like the gesture of passing a lighter to someone else can be gut wrenching if you've adequately combined the right ingredients.
If it's a character's father's lighter. If the father was estranged until then. If the lighter is shaped like a significant form, like a bullet, or a bottle opener. If the son lost his own lighter during some sort of journey. If the son dear because he wasn't able to start a fire. If the son had stolen from the father before, and now he shows once again his trust.

In fiction, love and Violence, are only worthwhile through context. You paint all that stuff, and your emotional scene can be a paragraph or so long.

*Spoiler*: _An example of how I'd do it_ 




"Father and son met once again after many years had past. It was a warm, placid sunday and they spend it sitting together by the porch, catching up with each others mundane little lives. 
They talk about their work, and then about their journeys and watched the sun go by with a cold beer on their hands, just as Father used to do by himself. Then they didn't talk for a while, and that was good too.
Then came the time for Son to go back. He got up, making a show of stretching his arms and went to make his goodbyes
*"Alright son, thank you for coming." father said before Son started. "Ah, yes Father. I'm glad I did" he replied, bending down to pick up the empty bottles.
"Oh leave them, I'll take care of it .. Just.. I wanted you to have something" said Father, handing onto Son's hands something cold and metallic.
It was the bronze bullet lighter. A little bit tarnished, and with a few scratches, but still looking sturdy and shiny, as it did. It felt heavy with fluid in Son's hands.
*His eyes froze, but his heart raced. Father nodded, and they hugged tightly.
Father dismissed the silence with a smile "Out with you boy, I'll see you soon.", he said, and from then on, they would."


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## Risyth (Jun 29, 2014)

*^I generally agree. Without context, though, so long as the scene is well-written, it's a great way to get a reader interested in the scenario.*



> *CTK:* They're still emotional to me, if they weren't I wouldn't write them.
> 
> I actually don't follow grammar either if they wouldn't when they're writing or speaking. I try writing conversationally, at least in first person.


*I don't think you get what I mean. If a scene isn't genuine and you spend an hour+ trying to make it as perfect as you can, it might sound better, but it's not as heartfelt. I'm not talking about writing techniques now.

I'm referring to syntax and diction being natural: ideally, whatever first comes to mind is what you'd write. I know this can be bad, though, if you're in the wrong mindset.*


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2014)

Sometimes, I hate my overactive imagination. I come up with so many new locations and people names when I make a new draft.


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## Risyth (Jun 29, 2014)

*Ah, names. I always get too Japanese with my names. My weak point.*


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2014)

I'm pretty proud of my ability to diversify my naming schemes and make them sound distinct.


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## Krory (Jun 29, 2014)

I just steal a bunch of European names.


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## Risyth (Jun 29, 2014)

*@Lord Yu: Without any help from some 3rd party? I have to say, that's impressive. You must get around a lot.*


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## Nordstrom (Jun 30, 2014)

^ For some reason, most of my names are from the British Isles and France, countries I associate with elitist, high class elegance since the books I write also focus on "ultra elitism" or very rich, powerful and attractive people (as in, modern day gods) and the aesthetic begs for soft sounding names. Meyer did used "Cullen" as a surname, and that's the Gaelic word for "attractive".

Hynden, Madeline, Elspeth, Chelsea, Bridget, Elise, Amber, Sadie... That sort of stuff for girls, and Aston, Aubrey, Liam, William, Jade, Leon, Dmitry for guys...


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 30, 2014)

When I come up with names, I just make random sounds until they sound like something. 



Lord Yu said:


> Sometimes, I hate my overactive imagination. I come up with so many new locations and people names when I make a new draft.



I can come up with so much stuff but never know how to start the first draft XT


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *^I generally agree. Without context, though, so long as the scene is well-written, it's a great way to get a reader interested in the scenario.*
> 
> 
> *I don't think you get what I mean. If a scene isn't genuine and you spend an hour+ trying to make it as perfect as you can, it might sound better, but it's not as heartfelt. I'm not talking about writing techniques now.
> ...



Not necessarily. You're not writing in your own voice, it's in the voice of the character. So there's going to be some disconnect from what the character needs to do and what you write them doing in the first place. 

I write characters that really aren't like me in thought process and I have to check the impulse to write things out of character, especially when moving from character to character. Natural syntax and diction aren't always going to be what's best. Most of the stuff you'll see me post, even the first drafts have a lot of content cut because I try to shorten everything and keep the writing as brief as I can while fitting the ideas I need there. 


*As for the naming conventions* I just name the characters whatever is appropriate for the country that they come from.


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## Tyrael (Jun 30, 2014)

I can't name for shit.


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## crazymtf (Jun 30, 2014)

I don't have a problem with naming except the fact that all my bad/evil characters keep rotating in my head. I seem to have a strong hatred for the name Billy haha.


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## Risyth (Jun 30, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not necessarily. You're not writing in your own voice, it's in the voice of the character. So there's going to be some disconnect from what the character needs to do and what you write them doing in the first place.
> 
> I write characters that really aren't like me in thought process and I have to check the impulse to write things out of character, especially when moving from character to character. Natural syntax and diction aren't always going to be what's best. Most of the stuff you'll see me post, even the first drafts have a lot of content cut because I try to shorten everything and keep the writing as brief as I can while fitting the ideas I need there.



*That's what I said: "I'm saying, when you're revising a draft, aside from the typical grammar, it'd be better to write what a character would naturally say, as that'll most likely be what sounds best/more realistic when read. That is, what you'd naturally say if you were that character in whatever situation. Most of the time--I mean, there are some instances where crafting is preferable, but it shouldn't be a first choice."

The reader will expect the character to speak a certain way based on how they've been brought up. If you put the character in a situation that's unfavorable to them, you'd still have to write how they'd realistically react to it, not using your own voice. For the best effect, you have to be every character you're writing and not second guess how they'd respond to anything unless they're doing the same. This means not going back to touch up diction. If you're naturally thinking as yourself instead of them, you need to discard your thoughts and get into the zone (their mindsets).*





Sleipnyr said:


> ^ For some reason, most of my names are from the British Isles and France, countries I associate with elitist, high class elegance since the books I write also focus on "ultra elitism" or very rich, powerful and attractive people (as in, modern day gods) and the aesthetic begs for soft sounding names. Meyer did used "Cullen" as a surname, and that's the Gaelic word for "attractive".
> 
> Hynden, Madeline, Elspeth, Chelsea, Bridget, Elise, Amber, Sadie... That sort of stuff for girls, and Aston, Aubrey, Liam, William, Jade, Leon, Dmitry for guys...



*I was unaware some of these were elitist names. Names like Bridget, Amber, Sadie, William...I didn't know Jade was a male name either. ww*


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *@Lord Yu: Without any help from some 3rd party? I have to say, that's impressive. You must get around a lot.*



Yeah, it helps being good with phonics and lucky.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> When I come up with names, I just make random sounds until they sound like something.
> 
> 
> 
> I can come up with so much stuff but never know how to start the first draft XT



Most of the stuff I come up with while brainstorming is background details. I probably come up with the bulk of my used material as I write.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *That's what I said: "I'm saying, when you're revising a draft, aside from the typical grammar, it'd be better to write what a character would naturally say, as that'll most likely be what sounds best/more realistic when read. That is, what you'd naturally say if you were that character in whatever situation. Most of the time--I mean, there are some instances where crafting is preferable, but it shouldn't be a first choice."
> 
> The reader will expect the character to speak a certain way based on how they've been brought up. If you put the character in a situation that's unfavorable to them, you'd still have to write how they'd realistically react to it, not using your own voice. For the best effect, you have to be every character you're writing and not second guess how they'd respond to anything unless they're doing the same. This means not going back to touch up diction. If you're naturally thinking as yourself instead of them, you need to discard your thoughts and get into the zone (their mindsets).*



You diction isn't going to be one hundred percent on a first go through, even if you're writing in character. Even when I'm writing in my own voice for my blog or something I go back and touch up diction because how I am going to say something out loud might not come out the same way on paper without the inflection in my voice. When I read over things they might have sounded better in my head. Sentence structure might not be clear either and I might have to re-order words to make things make better sense. 

There's no real good excuse to not edit everything when you go back over it and let anything be on the chopping block, diction, descriptions, an entire scene or even a character or plot line aren't off limits. I've cut things I really liked because they didn't belong or because the prose was going too purple and what was being said could have been said in less time. 

As for writing everything character as if you're them it depends. If you're handling a character in first person you need to behave as them. If you're in first person looking at other characters you need to show what their actions look like to the character you're writing as. If you're in third person limited you need to write with the viewpoint character in mind mostly. if you're in third person omni, then you can bounce around, but this tends to not let you be as in depth with single characters as easily. 

At this point the only character I have to have the voices of are the ones I'm writing in first person, the actions of everyone else will be translated through what the first person narrator does.


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## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2014)

If you're in a Lord Of The Rings ripoff setting, just pick a name off Ikea rejects


The city of Bikiana?r, ruled by the Mosas, and their king, Juurkus the II


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> If you're in a Lord Of The Rings ripoff setting, just pick a name off Ikea rejects
> 
> 
> The city of Bikiana?r, ruled by the Mosas, and their king, Juurkus the II



Needs more gratuitous use of the apostrophe. 

Actually you need to treat the apostrophe like a letter in the alphabet.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 30, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *I was unaware some of these were elitist names. Names like Bridget, Amber, Sadie, William...I didn't know Jade was a male name either. ww*



They are names, more often than not, of noble stock, used often by aristocrats and high class Europeans. The kind of name you'd associate with tuxedos, fancy dresses, pretty guys and girls, mansions, county clubs, polo, equitation and lacrosse and green, lush forested suburbs... Ice sculptures, fancy Spanish cars, fancy scarves in summer and winter, group photos in a cruise ship, yachts, coutillons, fluffy dogs and cats, single gender luxury boarding schools, Raybans, private jets and limousines and shopping bags optional...

The sort of stuff you'd expect of the rich kids of Instagram.



Lord Yu said:


> Most of the stuff I come up with while brainstorming is background details. I probably come up with the bulk of my used material as I write.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2014)

I've known people who were had those names and were neither rich nor fancy.  My full name reeks of money but I'm hardly rich. William is a name of kings but there was a time where if you threw a bottle in England you could hit a guy named William. 

Speaking of apostrophes I try not to use them for names.


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## Krory (Jun 30, 2014)

I don't even know what I'm reading anymore.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2014)

Every Bridget I've ever known was kind of bougie.

Another one of those fancy sounding names is Thad. I've never met a Thad, but when someone names a character that in a story or on a show they're making a firm commitment to trying to make them seem like a smarmy, rich douche. 

And in the category of names I hope I never hear again: Aiden.


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## Nordstrom (Jun 30, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I've known people who were had those names and were neither rich nor fancy.  My full name reeks of money but I'm hardly rich. William is a name of kings but there was a time where if you threw a bottle in England you could hit a guy named William.
> 
> Speaking of apostrophes I try not to use them for names.



But those who ARE rich and fancy don't have much of a repertoire of mundane name...



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Every Bridget I've ever known was kind of bougie.
> 
> Another one of those fancy sounding names is Thad. I've never met a Thad, but when someone names a character that in a story or on a show they're making a firm commitment to trying to make them seem like a smarmy, rich douche.
> 
> And in the category of names I hope I never hear again: Aiden.





Thad? Never heard of it. Also, I am pinning for soft sounding names as well. "Thad" sounds too heavy. I like e's, s's, a's and those letters. I prefer soft names that have no strong sounds... Specially since most characters being aliens or ancient gods need names that aren't heard of often.

On more "American" names, there's Savannah, Hailey, Louis, Sam, Kari, Lily, Oliver and Tami.

When I named my main character and his family, I realized most of them sounded and acted as if they were Britons, but since I didn't wanted teh UK feevah to come back, I needed something that was close but not enough. Cue New Zealand coming into play.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2014)

Thad is probably short for Thadius or something like that the way people use it. I don't suspect it's a name that's even really in use anymore. Just one of those names that people use to convey character traits.


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## Risyth (Jun 30, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You diction isn't going to be one hundred percent on a first go through, even if you're writing in character. Even when I'm writing in my own voice for my blog or something I go back and touch up diction because how I am going to say something out loud might not come out the same way on paper without the inflection in my voice. When I read over things they might have sounded better in my head. Sentence structure might not be clear either and I might have to re-order words to make things make better sense.


*When I say "diction," I mean the diction of the character you're writing. If you're thinking as your character and still stopping as you write, it's best to start their thoughts over try to think as them. Just don't cheat: never go out of character, is what I tell myself. It's hard for me, though, I admit, and it slows me down a lot.

But back when I used to write more often, I could breeze through scenes of dialogue this way.

The only way to compensate for your problem without changing the words you have is changing the punctuation and font (italics, bold, etc.) around the words you've chosen to represent a certain way.

There's no real good excuse to not edit everything when you go back over it and let anything be on the chopping block, diction, descriptions, an entire scene or even a character or plot line aren't off limits. I've cut things I really liked because they didn't belong or because the prose was going too purple and what was being said could have been said in less time. 
If it doesn't sound like your character, sure. Otherwise, it depends on your goal: are you sacrificing tone for grammatical adjustments? But, like when you're test-taking, usually your first guess will be the right one.*



> As for writing everything character as if you're them it depends. If you're handling a character in first person you need to behave as them. If you're in first person looking at other characters you need to show what their actions look like to the character you're writing as. If you're in third person limited you need to write with the viewpoint character in mind mostly. if you're in third person omni, then you can bounce around, but this tends to not let you be as in depth with single characters as easily.
> 
> At this point the only character I have to have the voices of are the ones I'm writing in first person, the actions of everyone else will be translated through what the first person narrator does.


*Well, I'm a doing 3rd person right now. I'm not saying you have to get into a character's psyche when describing events in that perspective--but for dialogue, you don't think that still applies?*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2014)

Risyth said:


> When I say "diction," I mean the diction of the character you're writing. If you're thinking as your character and still stopping as you write, it's best to start their thoughts over try to think as them. Just don't cheat: never go out of character, is what I tell myself. It's hard for me, though, I admit, and it slows me down a lot.
> 
> But back when I used to write more often, I could breeze through scenes of dialogue this way.


I can still pretty easily edit as the character and keep their speaking patterns and choice of words down. I can distinguish between them. You're talking writing processes which are going to differ depending on the person and even depending on the character being written (and the book too). 

What I'm writing now is kind of fourth wall breaking, actually both the things I am writing are. The characters address the audience some of the time, though they don't address writing this all down or how it's happening in first person real time. So the idea that this is something like a polished version of the characters speaking is kind of there. 

Dialogue is pretty easy for me for most of my characters. I have a clear picture of the kind of person they are in my head and I can pull on that for these little scenes and mentally check off that their needs and desires are being met in what they're saying. 



> The only way to compensate for your problem without changing the words you have is changing the punctuation and font (italics, bold, etc.) around the words you've chosen to represent a certain way.



I try not to use that very much. Sometimes I will use italics, but I don't think I've used bold. I use a lot of punctuation to show different things. A long dash to show that someone is cutting themselves off or being cut off, ellipsis to show that someone is trailing off, a semicolon to show a different kind of pause from a period. It is different at first, but then you realize some things. Like some characters never have semicolons, like Stroud. Some characters ramble in run on sentences a lot. And so on. 



> If it doesn't sound like your character, sure. Otherwise, it depends on your goal: are you sacrificing tone for grammatical adjustments? But, like when you're test-taking, usually your first guess will be the right one.



I can do both. Writing is meant to imitate life and real speaking patterns. The same way we don't expect a character to tell us about every meal they sit down to or every shit they take I don't feel like it's necessary to have all of the rambling, stuttering and other things that a real person would do in my books. If there's some point to it or it leads to something then that's different. This is kind of a philosophy I've borrowed from a book on writing, but it's also how I got better with dialogue. I learned that not everything real people say is worth being committed to writing. 



> Well, I'm a doing 3rd person right now. I'm not saying you have to get into a character's psyche when describing events in that perspective--but for dialogue, you don't think that still applies?



It always applies, but editing something doesn't automatically strip it of that character's voice and personality. 

In third person you still need to understand the actions a character has to convey them, even if the viewpoint character doesn't. It's what keeps us from writing characters as if they're NPCs in a video game just existing as McGuffins or to hand out quests to the hero. Why would someone do this? Why would this character be interested in this?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 1, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The thing is I refuse to treat Americans like we're the only ones on the planet. This character might say some things that are more American sounding than not, but it's partially because she grew up in two places (moving between New Orleans and the UK). I feel that's a good explanation and a good backstory for someone. The little Australian waitress at the hookah bar I frequent says a word that doesn't fit in Texas every one in a while, but she's also saying things that show she's been in Texas far longer than a few years.
> 
> Harry Potter is filled with Britishisms. Confessions of a Shopaholic is both filled with them and gives exact dates of years and months when it takes place. Harry Potter actually does too if you read closely (though in the case of Harry Potter she makes some mistakes, like saying that Dudley got a Playstation in the summer when it didn't come out till that following winter even in the states and back then it would have come out later than that for the UK). I've read Doctor Who novels where dates and songs on the radio from that time were given too, one guy just had a hard on for the early 90s.
> 
> ...




I feel misunderstood, like most artists.  This is at least partly, if not wholly my fault for not being concise enough, so I'll expound and highlight my intentions and motivations, and hopefully you come away with a less extreme sounding interpretation of what I meant.



> All of them together is weird for me. It's possible she could have acclimated quickly on her return, or learned to speak exclusively from her father, but it still comes off a little weird that she *defaults exclusively to that dialect.*
> 
> *Of course I don't really know enough about the character*, but this is the kind of thing I would note as odd while reading, and keep in the back of mind....*as I learn more about the character.*



------------------

If a character with two influences I expect them to show two influences, and not exclusively one unless I have a reason.  I wasn't given a reason in the excerpt and I only saw one.  Your explanation here makes sense, but it wasn't in the writing.  What was in the writing was that she felt distanced from her country and family and heritage.  So be aware that that's how that came across to me as a critical reader, and not as an isolationist or Amerifile.  If that's useful to you, that's what input is for.  If it isn't, ignore me.



> I don't really like dating *my work.* On the other hand, it does exactly do that, and that tells you about the time and the world, which is good if that's what you're going for.




I should have said I don't like to so _overtly_ date my own work.  It's purely a personal thing in my own writing, and I don't care if other people want to do that or not.  I usually don't decide that this is written in 1995, but I might decide that this is maybe 1990's-ish.  Or 18th centery-ish feeling.  Or some rough idea of modernish, or futurish, or old timey, or whatever to give a sense of the world and some guidelines.  

This is mostly because when things try to be "modern," or set something in "today," they throw in a lot of details that feel current now, but in a few years, they look and feel old, and your perspective and interpretation as a viewer change with the judgement you pass and the attitudes you possess when you see something set in a detailed 1999 in 1999, vs when you see the movie in 2015.  I experienced that when I compared how I thought about Austen Powers when I saw it when it was new, vs when I saw it a few years.  The sense that, "This is now, the 70's was then," was lost, because they both eras felt forever ago, and while still a fun comedy, it lost the crispness in exchange for that sort of irony, and it didn't feel like the directors were aware or wanting that to happen.

Does that mean I think anything I write will be totally and completely and 100% free of all temporal references, or that good writers don't do that?  Of course not.  I'd be foolish to think so.  But I do like to be conscious and careful about when I do it, and how I do it, and how it might change the feel of my story of time if I'm relying on it to convey certain and invoke certain ideas and feelings and thoughts and reactions, so I try to be more careful about how and when I employ it.  If you're conscious of it, then great.  If you don't care, that's also great.  This is 100% a personal thing for my own writing that I remarked on, and maybe I should have left it out.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I feel misunderstood, like most artists.  This is at least partly, if not wholly my fault for not being concise enough, so I'll expound and highlight my intentions and motivations, and hopefully you come away with a less extreme sounding interpretation of what I meant.
> 
> If a character with two influences I expect them to show two influences, and not exclusively one unless I have a reason.  I wasn't given a reason in the excerpt and I only saw one.  Your explanation here makes sense, but it wasn't in the writing.  What was in the writing was that she felt distanced from her country and family and heritage.  So be aware that that's how that came across to me as a critical reader, and not as an isolationist or Amerifile.  If that's useful to you, that's what input is for.  If it isn't, ignore me.



She moved back and forth so there is some influence from both sides. Really, this is an attempt to catch all of the mistakes I will make as an American writing about a character from England. If she says something American some of the time people will chalk it up to her slipping into that, but there are a lot of people who can pass between two cultures they've been immersed in and fit into both. My sister is a lawyer, but when she's talking to her family back in Louisiana she talks like them. John Borrowman is Scottish, but he can sound like an American to the point you would never know. Then you hear him talk to a Scottish person and it's super jarring because he talks and sounds just like them. 




> I should have said I don't like to so _overtly_ date my own work.  It's purely a personal thing in my own writing, and I don't care if other people want to do that or not.  I usually don't decide that this is written in 1995, but I might decide that this is maybe 1990's-ish.  Or 18th centery-ish feeling.  Or some rough idea of modernish, or futurish, or old timey, or whatever to give a sense of the world and some guidelines.



I don't feel like it's possible to write modern fantasy and know what will and won't be outdated. Trying to dodge it is harder than it's worth. No one could have tell what a cellphone was going to be twenty years ago or even ten years ago. But there are loads of movies and books where a cellphone could have resolved the whole plot. 

I write with a date in mind most of the time, but since my stuff happens in an alternate reality it doesn't matter as much. 




> Does that mean I think anything I write will be totally and completely and 100% free of all temporal references, or that good writers don't do that?  Of course not.  I'd be foolish to think so.  But I do like to be conscious and careful about when I do it, and how I do it, and how it might change the feel of my story of time if I'm relying on it to convey certain and invoke certain ideas and feelings and thoughts and reactions, so I try to be more careful about how and when I employ it.  If you're conscious of it, then great.  If you don't care, that's also great.  This is 100% a personal thing for my own writing that I remarked on, and maybe I should have left it out.


In our world Facebook and Twitter and email on phones is a huge part of everyday life for someone between the ages of 16-30. I feel that if I omit that people will start wondering why.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 1, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> Crafting Emotional scenes isn't hard in of itself.
> 
> What is hard is carving out the context around it all that actually gives it any punch.
> 
> ...



I'm a big fan of context.  It tells you what to think about this particular instance of x, rather than what you might generally think of x.

A person getting accosted in a super market brings about one idea.  A person who drags them self out of bed on a Sunday morning, and headed to the mostly empty super market in their pajamas and slippers to buy a can of coffee, milk, and cigarettes because the corner store is closed that gets accosted in the discount section brings about an entirely different idea.

Person A had a terrible incident.  Person B's life sucks more, and just can't catch a break.  Some people might try to describe the event more vividly, or raise the danger level to get us to empathize with Person A's plight more, but in the case of Person B, we don't need to do that to feel for the poor soul.

A quick check is to change "being accosted" to "dropping the eggs in the parking lot," and seeing how you feel for the persons.

*@Tyreal*

I suck with names too.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 1, 2014)

*sad brofist*


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 1, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> She moved back and forth so there is some influence from both sides. Really, this is an attempt to catch all of the mistakes I will make as an American writing about a character from England. If she says something American some of the time people will chalk it up to her slipping into that, but there are a lot of people who can pass between two cultures they've been immersed in and fit into both. My sister is a lawyer, but when she's talking to her family back in Louisiana she talks like them. John Borrowman is Scottish, but he can sound like an American to the point you would never know. Then you hear him talk to a Scottish person and it's super jarring because he talks and sounds just like them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought you were an English person writing for an American, and that's why everything was dominated by Britannia.  Which is sort of strange, considering it means I completely forgot all my prior knowledge of you.  So you're pretty good at the British bit.  Perhaps a little too good.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I thought you were an English person writing for an American, and that's why everything was dominated by Britannia.  Which is sort of strange, considering it means I completely forgot all my prior knowledge of you.  So you're pretty good at the British bit.  Perhaps a little too good.



I have another British main character so I try to maintain some idea of what's going on with their speech patterns. Also have several friends from over there in different areas and watch a bit of British TV. 

The listening to Confessions of a Shopaholic Audio book was for the same reason. The narrator is amazing and she makes the whole book worth it.

But no, I'm from Texas.


----------



## Risyth (Jul 1, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I can still pretty easily edit as the character and keep their speaking patterns and choice of words down. I can distinguish between them. You're talking writing processes which are going to differ depending on the person and even depending on the character being written (and the book too).
> 
> What I'm writing now is kind of fourth wall breaking, actually both the things I am writing are. The characters address the audience some of the time, though they don't address writing this all down or how it's happening in first person real time. So the idea that this is something like a polished version of the characters speaking is kind of there.
> 
> Dialogue is pretty easy for me for most of my characters. I have a clear picture of the kind of person they are in my head and I can pull on that for these little scenes and mentally check off that their needs and desires are being met in what they're saying.


*You can? 

Well, that's an interesting take on it. When I attempt such a thing, I feel as if I'm "diluting" the core characteristics of their personality, a manifested in their speech.
*


> I try not to use that very much. Sometimes I will use italics, but I don't think I've used bold. I use a lot of punctuation to show different things. A long dash to show that someone is cutting themselves off or being cut off, ellipsis to show that someone is trailing off, a semicolon to show a different kind of pause from a period. It is different at first, but then you realize some things. Like some characters never have semicolons, like Stroud. Some characters ramble in run on sentences a lot. And so on.


*
What about changes in intonation?*


> I can do both. Writing is meant to imitate life and real speaking patterns. The same way we don't expect a character to tell us about every meal they sit down to or every shit they take I don't feel like it's necessary to have all of the rambling, stuttering and other things that a real person would do in my books. If there's some point to it or it leads to something then that's different. This is kind of a philosophy I've borrowed from a book on writing, but it's also how I got better with dialogue. I learned that not everything real people say is worth being committed to writing.


*
Sorry, but I can't say I agree with this notion. If you don't write this way, that's fine, but to imply it makes for worse dialogue? It's all about manipulating the punctuation to serve the characters' needs as they speak, like you said.

If writing's meant to imitate life, imitating it to the fullest is the best way to have your story benefit from your dialogue and descriptions. This is why my story's nearly 2000 pages even though I've been slacking hard lately. I don't believe in dropping anything from one's prose/scenarios for convenience's sake--timeskips, for instance. 

Provided you're good at writing longer scenes constantly, you can immerse the reader 10x better this way. To me at least.*


> It always applies, but editing something doesn't automatically strip it of that character's voice and personality.
> 
> In third person you still need to understand the actions a character has to convey them, even if the viewpoint character doesn't. It's what keeps us from writing characters as if they're NPCs in a video game just existing as McGuffins or to hand out quests to the hero. Why would someone do this? Why would this character be interested in this?


*
I guess it'd depend on the content of your edits, then. I didn't think of it this way, but I suppose it should be possible to keep the character pure despite edits. It's just, the more these edits are done, the harder it is to preserve this purity.

No, I definitely agree with you there.*


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## Nordstrom (Jul 1, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thad is probably short for Thadius or something like that the way people use it. I don't suspect it's a name that's even really in use anymore. Just one of those names that people use to convey character traits.



IMO if you want to convey character traits, you'd usually use their hometown birthplace to convey them. New Zealand alone is fuzzy enough, as is South Africa, hence why I use those two often.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jul 2, 2014)

Hehe, I always seem to disappear when this thread becomes a tl;dr discussion. 

Anyhoo, here's an update from my writing: 

Firstly, I am 2/3 of the way completed with the first wave of editing my (hopeful) debut book _The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World_. I'm still uncomfortable with how things are going right now...

Secondly, I've started writing the second book. The prologue is done and now I'm on the beginning of chapter 1 (which is the longest fucking chapter I will ever fucking write because it explains the origin of the Four Sovereigns). 

That is all. :33


----------



## Nordstrom (Jul 2, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Hehe, I always seem to disappear when this thread becomes a tl;dr discussion.
> 
> Anyhoo, here's an update from my writing:
> 
> ...



Let me guess, exposition chapter?

Well, I must tell you that I strongly advice against it.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jul 2, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Let me guess, exposition chapter?
> 
> Well, I must tell you that I strongly advise against it.



Well, it's more than that really. Those four chapters pretty much explain everything from Mother Nature creating the universe to why Cantorium wanted the Crown in the first place (prologue, book 1)


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thad is probably short for Thadius or something like that the way people use it. I don't suspect it's a name that's even really in use anymore. Just one of those names that people use to convey character traits.



It's often short for Thaddeus, and there's a senator named Thad.


Recent news, yo.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 2, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Well, it's more than that really. Those four chapters pretty much explain everything from Mother Nature creating the universe to why Cantorium wanted the Crown in the first place (prologue, book 1)



I'd still advice against theming the chapters rather than progressing through each of them. However, if it'd be done in a "long ago..." narrative, it could work...


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## Risyth (Jul 4, 2014)

*^Based on that, who's venturing to...hm, no: I have an idea for a new thread. ww*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 4, 2014)

The only thing I would be cautious about when it comes to world building chapters is not integrating them into the story itself. If you're writing these things as part of the story and they set the world up around the characters, that's one thing. But if the chapters are just a point by point explanation of things I would say you might want to look at integrating all of those details into the larger narrative. 

For instance, the world from the Mistborn books is built very differently from most traditional fantasy, but I still got a sense of everything in it over the course of the first three books.


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## Risyth (Jul 4, 2014)

*How many words have you written today, CTK.*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 4, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *How many words have you written today, CTK.*



None. I literally am just getting off work and at Starbucks to relax and do some work on my blog.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 5, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The only thing I would be cautious about when it comes to world building chapters is not integrating them into the story itself. If you're writing these things as part of the story and they set the world up around the characters, that's one thing. But if the chapters are just a point by point explanation of things I would say you *might want to look at integrating all of those details into the larger narrative. *
> 
> For instance, the world from the Mistborn books is built very differently from most traditional fantasy, but I still got a sense of everything in it over the course of the first three books.



Pretty much what I've done so far.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 5, 2014)

Well, I'm having dinner beers.


----------



## Risyth (Jul 5, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> None. I literally am just getting off work and at Starbucks to relax and do some work on my blog.



*I know that feeling and hate it.*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 5, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *I know that feeling and hate it.*



It was a holiday and I've been at work so I just didn't really want to do anything besides lay here and watch some Doctor Who. The blog I wanted to do never game out and I got sleepy to the point that my body physically began to hurt.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 6, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Needs more gratuitous use of the apostrophe.
> 
> Actually you need to treat the apostrophe like a letter in the alphabet.



You need to treat it like the letter "e."


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You need to treat it like the letter "e."



For some reason I was really, really confused by this sentence and got excited thinking you were making a Childish Gambino reference. And the reference wouldn't have made sense, but I had somehow made apostrophes into accent marks. 

There's a line from one of his songs that says "my dick is like an accent mark; it's all about the over E's..." 

I haven't heard that song in months and I can't imagine why you would be talking about it, lol.


----------



## Risyth (Jul 6, 2014)

*E's the most common letter in the English lexicon, iirc.*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2014)

Finally got around to posting this for BaconBits and I think CrazyMTF.


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 9, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Finally got around to posting this for BaconBits and I think CrazyMTF.



Gonna read it later tonight! 

Also started a new novel. 15,000 words in a day. I'm fucking tired.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Gonna read it later tonight!
> 
> Also started a new novel. 15,000 words in a day. I'm fucking tired.



Awesome. And fifteen thousand words in a day is pretty impressive. I don't think I've ever done more than twenty and that was only a few times that that's ever happened.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 9, 2014)

I think the most words I've done in a single setting of writing is around the 5,000 block, give or take a few. 


I just noticed that I don't have a lot of action in my book... I want more! But mindless fighting is not the answer...


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 9, 2014)

I like a little fighting mixed every now and then. But I do agree, I don't like a ton. Unless it's super epic that runs over 40 pages...yeah...I need a edit but still.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jul 10, 2014)

So I've been having trouble redoing the summary to my book and this is what I've come up with thus far: 



> There is a legend in the Four Worlds about a Crown. It is a Crown that will give its wearer ultimate power if adorned upon their heads. It said there once was a King, Stratorium, who was a previous Sovereign of the Heavenly World, that watched over all of the Four Worlds. During his time, there was peace. But his reign was soon gone, and as he lied on his deathbed, he was ready to announce his successor.  However, a skirmish between his fellow Sovereign, Cantorium, changed Stratorium's mind and he split the Crown into Thirteen Pieces and planted them into thirteen unknowing human hosts. Stratorium died without another word.
> 
> However, this legend was uncovered by the demon-witch Anetelia who wants to create a "beautiful world" with the power of the Crown. She is now searching for the Pieces. Melissa doesn't know it yet, but she is the Thirteenth Piece to the Crown of the Four Worlds. When she is attacked by a flock of demon birds sent by the witch, Melissa is taken under custody by a military-police service known as the Sons of Gaea that resides in the Middle World. There, she learns that she is being hunted down and needs to learn to utilize her Piece's power or be a sacrifice to Anetelia's beautiful world.



Your thoughts?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> So I've been having trouble redoing the summary to my book and this is what I've come up with thus far:
> 
> 
> 
> Your thoughts?



If you're just doing a summary then word economy. The first two sentences could easily be one. 



> There is a legend in the Four Worlds about a Crown. It is a Crown that will give its wearer ultimate power if adorned upon their heads.,



 becomes 



> There is a legend about a crown that will give its wearer ultimate power when worn upon their head.


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## Risyth (Jul 10, 2014)

*15,000/20,000 words per day wtf*


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2014)

I used to do that when I first started out. It was mostly crap, though.


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## Tyrael (Jul 10, 2014)

Most I've ever written in one sitting was 6k.

It was all terrible.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 12, 2014)

The plus side of writing a lot like that is getting the plot and what actually happens down on the page. A lot of the time people don't know what to cut on an edit and end up with more than they should have even after the fact. Whatever my word count at the end of something I try to take the Stephen King approach and cut 10% of that off. It's not an exact number, but the last few times when I have gone through and done some heavy editing that's about how much seemed to be expendable anyway.


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## crazymtf (Jul 12, 2014)

Cutting the fat is pretty easy once the story is done. Repeated sentences, thoughts that maybe you were thinking but the character didn't, and overly done fight scenes or scenery sections usually get cut out. 

I do find it funny about the Stephen King thing though. As much as I love his books, over 30% of what is written in them could be taken out. I'm reading the Stand now (extended edition) and I'm just like "Goddamn it...this whole chapter could be gone"


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## Lord Yu (Jul 12, 2014)

I couldn't get through The Stand. There were quite a few random bits I think could have been cut.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 12, 2014)

If you're reading the unedited version of "The Stand" some of the stuff in there was totally cut out chapters at a time. I remember him talking about it some in "On Writing". That's where I got the editing 10% rule from.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 13, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Cutting the fat is pretty easy once the story is done. Repeated sentences, thoughts that maybe you were thinking but the character didn't, and overly done fight scenes or scenery sections usually get cut out.
> 
> I do find it funny about the Stephen King thing though. As much as I love his books, over 30% of what is written in them could be taken out. I'm reading the Stand now (extended edition) and I'm just like "Goddamn it...this whole chapter could be gone"



Battles the way I write them usually become one strike fights (to showcase the power gap) after a brief description of the scenery. If they do get drawn out, I usually show them between a human POV (blurs, ribbons of light, flashes, sprites, lightning, levitating frost, ashes, red rain) and then switch to a combatant POV (actions happen normally, but time moves at a crawl to suggest speed, magic circles that cover someone's body, eye and hair color changes...) and try to do it fast and without prior warning to keep the readers on the edge of their seats.

Also, image question. Guys, do any of the two girls below look unnaturally attractive? And if so, who would you prefer? I need to know to decide where to use either. Also, do tell me if they look CGI or CGIesque.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Werewolf:* 


_*Jotunn/Giant*_:


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 13, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Battles the way I write them usually become one strike fights (to showcase the power gap) after a brief description of the scenery. If they do get drawn out, I usually show them between a human POV (blurs, ribbons of light, flashes, sprites, lightning, levitating frost, ashes, red rain) and then switch to a combatant POV (actions happen normally, but time moves at a crawl to suggest speed, magic circles that cover someone's body, eye and hair color changes...) and try to do it fast and without prior warning to keep the readers on the edge of their seats.
> 
> Also, image question. Guys, do any of the two girls below look unnaturally attractive? And if so, who would you prefer? I need to know to decide where to use either. Also, do tell me if they look CGI or CGIesque.
> 
> ...



I guess that the blonde one is the prettier of the two. But they're both not all that attractive to me.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jul 13, 2014)

I prefer the top one, but I wouldn't like a picture with no effects on it just to be sure...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 13, 2014)

Yeah, the editing makes it really hard to tell. I feel like the first one is taken from a video game or something like that. There's something strange about the edges and they don't look like they're just edited by some tool.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 13, 2014)

Bingo, it was just heavily edited. There was some washout from the adjustments made to skin and the hair being recolored and blurred made me think it came from some video game FMV. 



The second one looks like it was skin smoothed, filtered and they messed with the gamma. 



Yay, Photoshop CSI.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jul 13, 2014)

I'd take the blonde. She has much fuller lips.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 13, 2014)

~Avant~! You're back! 

Where did you go?


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## Nordstrom (Jul 13, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah, the editing makes it really hard to tell. I feel like the first one is taken from a video game or something like that. There's something strange about the edges and they don't look like they're just edited by some tool.
> 
> Bingo, it was just heavily edited. There was some washout from the adjustments made to skin and the hair being recolored and blurred made me think it came from some video game FMV.
> 
> ...



I'm glad I could finally get the Final Fantasy aesthetic right, since it's what I am pinning for...

Yeah, the editing makes it really hard to tell. I feel like the first one is taken from a video game or something like that. There's something strange about the edges and they don't look like they're just edited by some tool.Yeah, the editing makes it really hard to tell. I feel like the first one is taken from a video game or something like that. There's something strange about the edges and they don't look like they're just edited by some tool.Yeah, the editing makes it really hard to tell. I feel like the first one is taken from a video game or something like that. There's something strange about the edges and they don't look like they're just edited by some tool.


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## Tyrael (Jul 13, 2014)

What are you going to use the pictures for?


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## Nordstrom (Jul 13, 2014)

Inspiration mostly. I can always work better when I have a good picture down.


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 13, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> ~Avant~! You're back!
> 
> Where did you go?



Marine Corps duties called


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 13, 2014)

I tend to collect pictures in a little notebook for motivation and ideas of what people and things look like. I've been trying to find someone to represent the my character from the witches thing. I'm also looking at pictures of speakeasies to get the design down so that I can create a modern day one for my story.


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## ~Avant~ (Jul 13, 2014)

I actively look for pictures or look to actors from my favorite movies and tv shows and make them the face for my characters. It helps when visualizing dialogue and character interaction and especially with descriptions.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 14, 2014)

^ Normal actors don't cut it for me. Specially because of beautiful females and most actresses not matching their male peers when it comes to being attractive.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 14, 2014)

I usually make my own faces but when I can't draw my characters, I look for faces of random people, and then get usually two or more and then I mash them together to make a new face. Why? Because everyone is different.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 14, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ^ Normal actors don't cut it for me. Specially because of beautiful females and most actresses not matching their male peers when it comes to being attractive.



The women aren't as beautiful as a men? That seems like a pretty tall claim, especially depending on who you're talking about. There's kind of an expectation of fashion and beauty when it comes to celebrities, but I don't think that naturally beautiful people are the right kind of good looks for what I'm trying to do with these characters because they're angels and the like. 

I do pick some of the people I use out of the acting pool, but I don't need them to bee freakishly good looking, even the ones that are supernatural.


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## crazymtf (Jul 14, 2014)

A lot of people in my stories I guess I base on people I know for looks, but I usually make them nothing like the people I really know in terms of personality.


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## Tyrael (Jul 14, 2014)

It seems like I'm rare, in that I rarely think about what a person looks like when creating or writing a character.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 14, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I usually make my own faces but when I can't draw my characters, I look for faces of random people, and then get usually two or more and then I mash them together to make a new face. Why? Because everyone is different.



I attempted to do that, but it's not as easy as it sounds. I do draw an sketch of them, but I need an IRL image too.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The women aren't as beautiful as a men? That seems like a pretty tall claim, especially depending on who you're talking about. There's kind of an expectation of fashion and beauty when it comes to celebrities, but I don't think that naturally beautiful people are the right kind of good looks for what I'm trying to do with these characters because they're angels and the like.
> 
> I do pick some of the people I use out of the acting pool, but I don't need them to bee freakishly good looking, even the ones that are supernatural.



Well, when people say Katniss and her love interests are equally attractive, I honestly feel offended. Even more so with Kirsten Stewart comparisons. I usually make parallel comparisons (a muscular body for guys, curvy body for girls. Guys with pretty hair, girls with pretty bangs that highlight their eyes...) and I dislike when people ask different beauty standards according to gender... I can even say that romance in YA and Western media doesn't caters exclusively to men in the way it does with women... Boy bands are something only girls would like, girl groups, however, serve as role models for girls (boy bands don't do that for guys)... You can showcase an underage actor half naked, but I dare you attempt do that with an underage girl (once more, I'm looking at you, Lautner... That doesn't means I won't try to find workarounds for doing the same) and there's tons of YA books and soap operas for girls, yet none for guys that follows similar dynamics (surrounded by girls, social mobilization through personality alone, that sort of stuff) and even the beauty standards ask men for more (compare a pretty boy lead with a pretty girl one)... This isn't just my inner communist screaming "equality or death", this is giving everyone alternatives. 

The aforementioned problems are the reason I'm virulently anti-Hallyu and praise Cool Japan. Japan has romance novels, eroge, harem anime and doramas, and lots of plastic girl BANDS (aptly called so, like SCANDAL) that are firmly aimed at guys. In the West, Korea and Taiwan, you have media aimed at girls, and media aimed at both, but no exclusively male media. The reason I started this was the motivation of a "retake culture or "Occupy YA" crusade" meant to attract guys towards something made just for them and away from less savory fantasies. We have an stripping vampire and werewolf, both with great bodies, where are women doing the same WITHOUT this turning into a porn? A guy makes a song for you and plays it on a piano, the other makes you a wooden charm, where are girls doing the same? A boy band sings about how you are the only thing they can think of... I see no girl BAND doing the same? A heroine with an arrow is seen as a badass celebrity and is stuck in a drama between her two loves and lost her little sister before leading a revolution as it's poster girl... Where's the heroic, role model guy who has two attractive love interests and is hailed as a hero and celebrity for using just an sword, is stuck in a drama with his two love interests, is badass and is the leader and poster child of the guard or a revolution?

The more you ask yourself this and see that the options start drying up (outside of Japanese media, which, unlike their country, is relatively diverse) in Western media and the Korean Hallyu Wave. Both of which are the mainstream, whereas an "egalitarian" culture like Japan's is ridiculed and denigrated as "for nerds and otakus" and "niche, catering only to the Japanese".

If anything, it caters to the whole demographic, you're just not looking hard enough.

If anything, I'm not doing anything new, beyond Westernizing Japanese culture and exporting it myself to raise awareness of it..


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## Tyrael (Jul 14, 2014)

The problem is, when something is made aimed at guys it's considered to be accessible to everyone, but when it's aimed at girls it's considered to be inappropriate for guys.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 14, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> The problem is, when something is made aimed at guys it's considered to be accessible to everyone, but when it's aimed at girls it's considered to be inappropriate for guys.



That's the trend that I'm attempting to counter. By making something that would be considered inappropriate for girls.


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## Buskuv (Jul 14, 2014)

But that's a silly thing to do.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 14, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Well, when people say Katniss and her love interests are equally attractive, I honestly feel offended. Even more so with Kirsten Stewart comparisons.



Kristen Stewart is made to look uglier for the first movies because she's not a vampire. She's pasty and pale and so on and so forth. When she's bitten that instantly changes. The point of her not being on par with her co-stars is that she's not supernatural. The same way Jacob isn't all ripped before the Wolf genes kick in. 

When it comes to Katniss, do you mean the movie one or the book. In the book we're treated to a first person narrator and she's not going to be full of herself looks-wise because survival minded and doesn't think much of her own looks. If you mean Jennifer Lawrence isn't pretty then there's no hope for you, I'm afraid.



> I usually make parallel comparisons (a muscular body for guys, curvy body for girls. Guys with pretty hair, girls with pretty bangs that highlight their eyes...) and I dislike when people ask different beauty standards according to gender...



Maybe they're not books, but there are so many movies where a guy isn't the ideal candidate and he's paired up with a really hot girl. I mean all those movies where a pudgy, hairy Seth Rogen ends up with a beautiful girl. Or those shows where some tubby blue collar type has a smoking hot intelligent wife. 

Sure it's not politically correct, but the gender equivalent for guys to the books you're talking about are things like James Bond (which are books) and that shit by Tom Clancy. As far as male YA, you're just not looking hard enough. Like the John Cleaver series is YA and there's some others I've come across out there. 

You act as if no one is writing things for men. Take Harry Potter, for instance. If it was about a girl Harriet Potter the books would have been considered just for girls. They would have been marketed at girls and Rowling probably wouldn't be nearly as rich. It's like Tyrael said. When someone is geared toward men, it's treated as universally acceptable for all audiences. When it's geared toward women, it's just treated as not right for men to be there. 

All the popular series that are enjoyed by both genders from the fantasy genre, Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, and other things of that type typically have a male lead. 

And if you want stuff made for guys that's sexual, just read that shit cranked out by Goodkind. It's dominatrix magic, some rape iirc, him solving problems with his dick and other fun times. 




> I can even say that romance in YA and Western media doesn't caters exclusively to men in the way it does with women...



It's called marketing and culture. You're not just talking about an issue in the publishing industry, but a difference in how men and women are taught to think in the West. You're going to reset hundreds of years of culturally permeated stuff with a book? I know what I'm writing is against the grain, but I'm also not calling attention to it or starting some kind of revolution.  



> Boy bands are something only girls would like, girl groups, however, serve as role models for girls (boy bands don't do that for guys)...



Why can't they serve as role models for boys? Oh right, because other boys call them ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and other names and the boys that might see them as role models are probably scared away from emulating them.



> You can showcase an underage actor half naked, but I dare you attempt do that with an underage girl (once more, I'm looking at you, Lautner... That doesn't means I won't try to find workarounds for doing the same)



Are you writing a movie or a book or a comic? Because I've read about sixteen year old girls sucking dicks in classrooms. I've read about girls touching themselves and I've read girls that were half naked. If a girl shows her tits and she's underage in a movie, it's illegal. So take it up with the actual law if you want to see underaged boobs. Once again, it's a cultural thing. 

But books are given some leeway? Ever heard of Lolita?



> and there's tons of YA books and soap operas for girls, yet none for guys that follows similar dynamics (surrounded by girls, social mobilization through personality alone, that sort of stuff) and even the beauty standards ask men for more (compare a pretty boy lead with a pretty girl one)... This isn't just my inner communist screaming "equality or death", this is giving everyone alternatives.



Social mobilization through personality alone? There are a lot of guys in fiction that are charismatic and non-violent: Chuck Bass from Gossip Girl comes to mind. The thing is you have to remember that it's not something the publishing industry created. They're following the trends of culture. 



> The aforementioned problems are the reason I'm virulently anti-Hallyu and praise Cool Japan. Japan has romance novels, eroge, harem anime and doramas, and lots of plastic girl BANDS (aptly called so, like SCANDAL) that are firmly aimed at guys.


Different culture. 



> In the West, Korea and Taiwan, you have media aimed at girls, and media aimed at both, but no exclusively male media. The reason I started this was the motivation of a "retake culture or "Occupy YA" crusade" meant to attract guys towards something made just for them and away from less savory fantasies. We have an stripping vampire and werewolf, both with great bodies, where are women doing the same WITHOUT this turning into a porn?
> It is illegal for girls to walk around with their tits out in some places. You're not talking about a problem with the publishing industry, it's a cultural thing. If someone reads that it's going to seem strange to them too.



Men are more attracted to sex, at least that's the common thought process. Women are supposed to be more attracted to being desired. That's why we see an extreme delay in having sex in books aimed at young girls. Because the idea of being desired is supposed to draw them in. And honestly, the idea of someone truly loving you enough to wait shouldn't have a gender tag, but it does from a publishing standpoint because there are gatekeepers. 



> A guy makes a song for you and plays it on a piano, the other makes you a wooden charm, where are girls doing the same? A boy band sings about how you are the only thing they can think of... I see no girl BAND doing the same? A heroine with an arrow is seen as a badass celebrity and is stuck in a drama between her two loves and lost her little sister before leading a revolution as it's poster girl...



How many guys would admit to wanting the same things girls like and considering the same things attractive. It's conditioning. 



> where is the heroic, role model guy who has two attractive love interests and is hailed as a hero and celebrity for using just an sword, is stuck in a drama with his two love interests, is badass and is the leader and poster child of the guard or a revolution?


Harry Potter? Heroic guy, phallic weapon, two love interests (Chang and Weasley) and leads a revolution. You're fighting against something that isn't there. I can find countless books about guys with their shirt off sleeping with several women and suffering almost no consequence except for a slap in the face, with girls fighting over them and with the world loving them. 

Sword of Truth books are a big one. 

There was a Space Opera I can't remember the name to. 




> The more you ask yourself this and see that the options start drying up (outside of Japanese media, which, unlike their country, is relatively diverse) in Western media and the Korean Hallyu Wave. Both of which are the mainstream, whereas an "egalitarian" culture like Japan's is ridiculed and denigrated as "for nerds and otakus" and "niche, catering only to the Japanese".



Weeboo moment [citation needed]. 



> If anything, I'm not doing anything new, beyond Westernizing Japanese culture and exporting it myself to raise awareness of it..



You can't really do this because just like dropping democracy into the Middle East, culture is something that grows out of a shared experience. Injecting it directly into another culture where the norms and mores are different won't allow it to take in large doses. Sure there are things that are small that make the transfer, but they're fluid things or things that don't require much knowledge or experience in the other culture. It's the reason why Cowboy Bebop is more accessible than a lot of other anime.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 14, 2014)

Tell that to Japan... And Northeastern Europe.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 14, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Tell that to Japan... And Northeastern Europe.


Like I said, this isn't Japan. Our culture didn't develop with theirs and we don't share a common heritage. So they're a completely different ball game.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 14, 2014)

What do you guys think is a cliche thing to do for character development?


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## Tyrael (Jul 14, 2014)

Magically curing their myopia.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 14, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> What do you guys think is a cliche thing to do for character development?



Having a female character get raped to make her toughen up. 
Killing off loved ones to teach a character they need to be more bad ass.
Love at first sight. 
Orphaned people. 
People with single parent homes (a lot of YA is just a mom or just a dad for some reason). 
Using names to describe how a person is personality-wise.

This is a vague question, but I can go on.


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## crazymtf (Jul 14, 2014)

Cliches but isn't it sad that half the ones actually relate to real life situations and people? Kind of like stereotypes haha.


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## Buskuv (Jul 14, 2014)

Romance through proximity.

Hate.  Hate.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 15, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Kristen Stewart is made to look uglier for the first movies because she's not a vampire. She's pasty and pale and so on and so forth. When she's bitten that instantly changes. The point of her not being on par with her co-stars is that she's not supernatural. The same way Jacob isn't all ripped before the Wolf genes kick in.



Yet tell me of a movie or book where the situation is turned sideways...



> When it comes to Katniss, do you mean the movie one or the book. In the book we're treated to a first person narrator and she's not going to be full of herself looks-wise because survival minded and doesn't think much of her own looks. If you mean Jennifer Lawrence isn't pretty then there's no hope for you, I'm afraid.



While we won't agree over what's pretty, she's nowhere near as close as her male counterparts, at least from what I've seen.



> Maybe they're not books, but there are so many movies where a guy isn't the ideal candidate and he's paired up with a really hot girl. I mean all those movies where a pudgy, hairy Seth Rogen ends up with a beautiful girl. Or those shows where some tubby blue collar type has a smoking hot intelligent wife.



Ugly guys aren't my forte either.

Even then, more often than not, that is comedy, dramedy at best. It's not 



> Sure it's not politically correct, but the gender equivalent for guys to the books you're talking about are things like James Bond (which are books) and that shit by Tom Clancy. As far as male YA, you're just not looking hard enough. Like the John Cleaver series is YA and there's some others I've come across out there.



James Bond, who often has to get punched in the face for the girl. The girl who may often do nothing or very little. The man that, while idolized IRL isn't more than just an spy in universe. Doesn't sounds good enough to me.



> You act as if no one is writing things for men. Take Harry Potter, for instance. If it was about a girl Harriet Potter the books would have been considered just for girls. They would have been marketed at girls and Rowling probably wouldn't be nearly as rich. It's like Tyrael said. When someone is geared toward men, it's treated as universally acceptable for all audiences. When it's geared toward women, it's just treated as not right for men to be there.



It can be geared towards men alone. There are inconsistencies or "impurities" that can be purged in the earlier stages of development, such as all guys being taken, by none other than inhumanly attractive women, having harems themselves and so on.



> All the popular series that are enjoyed by both genders from the fantasy genre, Percy Jackson, Harry Potter, and other things of that type typically have a male lead.



They are aimed at an age demographic, but are ungendered. Harry Potter was for tweens and evolved from there to YA because of it's timeline moving at the same pace as the real world.



> And if you want stuff made for guys that's sexual, just read that shit cranked out by Goodkind. It's dominatrix magic, some rape iirc, him solving problems with his dick and other fun times.



Not overt stuff like that! Stuff like, exposed backs, shower scenes, clothing damage... You know, that sort of stuff.



> It's called marketing and culture. You're not just talking about an issue in the publishing industry, but a difference in how men and women are taught to think in the West. You're going to reset hundreds of years of culturally permeated stuff with a book? I know what I'm writing is against the grain, but I'm also not calling attention to it or starting some kind of revolution.



It has happened before. Whatever happened to the Western notion of ugly babushkas fading away as soon as Russians tennis players, rich businessmen driving BMW and wearing Zegna and pretty, energetic artists became well known with Russia's opening?



> Why can't they serve as role models for boys? Oh right, because other boys call them ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and other names and the boys that might see them as role models are probably scared away from emulating them.



Name a single thing Bieber or OneDirection has done that could be good to emulate! Then name a female counterpart... Where are they? Northeastern Europe and none other than Nihon-koku...

Name of the group? Scandal.



> Are you writing a movie or a book or a comic? Because I've read about sixteen year old girls sucking dicks in classrooms. I've read about girls touching themselves and I've read girls that were half naked. If a girl shows her tits and she's underage in a movie, it's illegal. So take it up with the actual law if you want to see underaged boobs. Once again, it's a cultural thing.



Don't put it that way. I'm not on showing boobs, but finding a girl, naked, covered by rocks and dust inside a cave, or flashing away before she removes her clothing... That's possible.

I did say that below... Didn't I?



> But books are given some leeway? Ever heard of Lolita?



I'll remind you later... Just you wait here.



> Social mobilization through personality alone? There are a lot of guys in fiction that are charismatic and non-violent: Chuck Bass from Gossip Girl comes to mind. The thing is you have to remember that it's not something the publishing industry created. They're following the trends of culture.



Trends are set, not formulated. Also, was he the lead? Was he capable of action? Because you're supposed to have stuff you don't need.

Different culture. 



> In the West, Korea and Taiwan, you have media aimed at girls, and media aimed at both, but no exclusively male media. The reason I started this was the motivation of a "retake culture or "Occupy YA" crusade" meant to attract guys towards something made just for them and away from less savory fantasies. We have an stripping vampire and werewolf, both with great bodies, where are women doing the same WITHOUT this turning into a porn?
> It is illegal for girls to walk around with their tits out in some places. You're not talking about a problem with the publishing industry, it's a cultural thing. If someone reads that it's going to seem strange to them too.



Here it is. I said "WITHOUT this turning into a porn".

Seemingly naked and naked aren't the same thing. It's like the line between Hentai and Ecchi. You show, but don't do anything sexual.



> How many guys would admit to wanting the same things girls like and considering the same things attractive. It's conditioning.



Conditioning that I aim to bust down.



> Harry Potter? Heroic guy, phallic weapon, two love interests (Chang and Weasley) and leads a revolution. You're fighting against something that isn't there. I can find countless books about guys with their shirt off sleeping with several women and suffering almost no consequence except for a slap in the face, with girls fighting over them and with the world loving them.



He's heroic for sure, but wands aren't really phallic and his love interests are spread upon. Also, he's revolution is minuscule in comparison to what Katniss leads.

It's beyond sleeping with lots of women and the world loving them. It's about the world effectively finding them unique and courting them to their side. 

Hundreds are supposed to fight for him, he's supposed to be special on his own right, and to do things that further polarize the world towards him. Think of how Katniss was used by both the Capitol and the Districts. Harry wasn't a celebrity, there was no gossip around him, HE WASN'T A FAD! Everywhere, people talked about the Girl on Fire, but Harry became a hero and his story ended. He got no chance to bask in the limelight. Katniss did, even if she was merely being used.



> Sword of Truth books are a big one.
> 
> There was a Space Opera I can't remember the name to.
> 
> ...







> You can't really do this because just like dropping democracy into the Middle East, culture is something that grows out of a shared experience. Injecting it directly into another culture where the norms and mores are different won't allow it to take in large doses. Sure there are things that are small that make the transfer, but they're fluid things or things that don't require much knowledge or experience in the other culture. It's the reason why Cowboy Bebop is more accessible than a lot of other anime.



Just like the USSR propping up Communism in Eastern Europe, this can be propped up if successful, specially because a successful franchise sets the trend for the rest of the genre.

Also known as the domino effect, one country (genre) falls to communism (franchise) and soon other countries (music, dramas, books) continue in it's stead.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 15, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Like I said, this isn't Japan. Our culture didn't develop with theirs and we don't share a common heritage. So they're a completely different ball game.



We're friendly towards Korea though. Why so?



Malicious Friday said:


> What do you guys think is a cliche thing to do for character development?



That character development can't happen overnight. I've seen people do it. It happens and I try to depict it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 15, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem is that it?s presumed that men don?t want to read about that situation flipped upside down. I can cut this all short and keep it to a concise response this time. The idea that you?re talking about is basically changing hundreds of years of programming. It?s nothing like Russia spreading communism because most of the places they tried it in were right next to them and culturally similar. Granted it spread to other places, but it?s taken on different elements there too and it grew from revolutions in those places. 

Katniss in the books is debatable, but so are her co-stars honestly. In real life I don?t understand what you?re talking about. She?s curvy, big breasted, has nice legs and is approachable looking (at least the actress is).

When it comes to Bond, he can?t be idolized in his universe because he?s a spy. He?s a pretty terrible spy too because he?s always giving his real name and destroying half a city. But he?s an ideal that men would like to be, limitlessly rich, dangerous, with scores of women beating down his door. 

And his women, Halle Berry wasn?t just some pretty face in the movie she was in. The black girl in Skyfall was another agent with him and there are female villains like Xena in Goldeneye. Honestly it seems like you?re cherry picking facts about the things that you dislike about these things. Bond is a male icon. He?s a guy men want to be like and women would like to be with?in general. 

You?re cherry picking Harry Potter facts too. He was in celebrity gossip columns written by Rita Skeeter in the Wizard newspapers. He was followed like a fad in many of the books and distrusted in one book because he was thought to be a liar. Moreover he saved the world or at least the Wizard part of it. And wands are super phallic. There?s whole essays on the phallic symbolism of the wand in Harry Potter.

I mean, a lot of the things you?re claiming seem to be nitpicks at the ideas presented in Western media. If you like the idea of something less Westernized that?s fine, but don?t act like you?re doing it to change people over to thinking like another culture because it just doesn?t happen. 

I set out to write a novel and picked up the idea of railing against some of the cultural conditioning out there, but it?s not about writing something from a totally different culture. I?m writing about girls in high school who aren?t preoccupied with trying to find guys to date and who are comfortable with themselves, but are still flawed. 

You?d be better off writing something from the a western perspective with the changes you want to see in society made in your character and them standing up for what they believe in instead of just assuming that if I Easternize this whole book men will see the error of their ways. 

You seem weirdly into this harem thing too?


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## Nordstrom (Jul 15, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The problem is that it?s presumed that men don?t want to read about that situation flipped upside down. I can cut this all short and keep it to a concise response this time. The idea that you?re talking about is basically changing hundreds of years of programming. It?s nothing like Russia spreading communism because most of the places they tried it in were right next to them and culturally similar. Granted it spread to other places, but it?s taken on different elements there too and it grew from revolutions in those places.



Exactly. This presumption is what keeps alternatives from springing up. The idea is that the concept is not really all that alien, it's just that nobody has targeted it in the other direction.



> Katniss in the books is debatable, but so are her co-stars honestly. In real life I don?t understand what you?re talking about. She?s curvy, big breasted, has nice legs and is approachable looking (at least the actress is).



Lawrence is hot, but Katniss isn't. I could save the same about Tanya and MyAnna Buring.



> When it comes to Bond, he can?t be idolized in his universe because he?s a spy. He?s a pretty terrible spy too because he?s always giving his real name and destroying half a city. But he?s an ideal that men would like to be, limitlessly rich, dangerous, with scores of women beating down his door.
> 
> And his women, Halle Berry wasn?t just some pretty face in the movie she was in. The black girl in Skyfall was another agent with him and there are female villains like Xena in Goldeneye. Honestly it seems like you?re cherry picking facts about the things that you dislike about these things. Bond is a male icon. He?s a guy men want to be like and women would like to be with?in general.



I'm a bit underinformed on stuff that hasn't been widespread since the 90's. However I am not cherry picking (or intending to) but Bond, whilst popular, seems like a more mature role. Not my idea of YA. Had Agent Cody Banks been exploited to hell and back, that one could've worked. Also, Bond itself fits into a rather episodic series. There's also the fact that Bond itself feels too resilient.



> You?re cherry picking Harry Potter facts too. He was in celebrity gossip columns written by Rita Skeeter in the Wizard newspapers. He was followed like a fad in many of the books and distrusted in one book because he was thought to be a liar. Moreover he saved the world or at least the Wizard part of it. And wands are super phallic. There?s whole essays on the phallic symbolism of the wand in Harry Potter.



The problem with Harry Potter is actually deeper. He's been overshadowed. In the Hunger Games, the only person who wielded more ideological power than Katniss was Snow (and maybe Coin) whereas there were tons of people who matched or superseded Harry.

I still see no phallic symbolism in wands. That one I just can't understand. Or are pens phallic symbols too?



> I mean, a lot of the things you?re claiming seem to be nitpicks at the ideas presented in Western media. If you like the idea of something less Westernized that?s fine, but don?t act like you?re doing it to change people over to thinking like another culture because it just doesn?t happen.



I'm not going to change how they think, but I am founding an alternative. Right now, there are only two options. I want a third one. All I need is to make people aware that "it exists" and if I succeed, then it'll do.

My story is just the beginning (this sounds oddly prophetic).



> I set out to write a novel and picked up the idea of railing against some of the cultural conditioning out there, but it?s not about writing something from a totally different culture. I?m writing about girls in high school who aren?t preoccupied with trying to find guys to date and who are comfortable with themselves, but are still flawed.



I'm not going to write about a totally different culture. I'm writing something that will change the perception of our culture and trigger major changes if successful. The idea that there aren't men who are special because of their passive worth, that those same men can't become powerful celebrities, that guys who cry over a girl not being there for them are pathetic, that guys don't have girl bands that sing to them how special they (the guys) are to them, the idea that men don't love romance, and the idea that men too, don't want to live in a fairy tale. That's what I'm getting to.



> You?d be better off writing something from the a western perspective with the changes you want to see in society made in your character and them standing up for what they believe in instead of just assuming that if I Easternize this whole book men will see the error of their ways.



I didn't Easternize the book. But it has stuff that you'd only see in Eastern fiction.

There's also the fact that the book literally turned the Cold War and gender roles on their heads. The USSR is back, the USA balkanized and collapsed, Spain rules over the British, East Germans are laughing at the West, Scandinavia bosses France and Benelux around, Quebec is independent, Greece's as popular as Italy IOTL... ROC, SK and Indonesia and the Philippines, just like Latam are underwater. Men now outshop women, there are girl bands everywhere (one of them is named "Wolf Ticket", so I just spoilered you) and they can now get away with going hot and cold on them without retaliation. Even the notion of "Ladies first" was inverted.



> You seem weirdly into this harem thing too?



It's an example. Mostly because the only romantic stuff that's not comedy I've come across are all harem light novels. I hate mentioning it, but even HighSchool DxD would be a good showcase of what I'm going on about. Anglicize the names, remove some comedy, translate it into English, give it a hardcover facelift with a symbol over a red background and sell it at Barnes & Noble. Except for religious conservatives, everyone will be praising the thing and going on about the new Hunger Games Twilight hybrid... The catch, it's readers are mostly guys


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 15, 2014)

Uh Katiness is fucking hot as hell. But hey, that's just me. Anyway, continue


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jul 16, 2014)

Holy Shit. 

I'm siding with CardBoard TubeKnight on this one.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 16, 2014)

Can't stop thinking about mecha. Super Robots, Real Robots....


----------



## Blue (Jul 16, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> It's an example. Mostly because the only romantic stuff that's not comedy I've come across are all harem light novels. I hate mentioning it, but even HighSchool DxD would be a good showcase of what I'm going on about. Anglicize the names, remove some comedy, translate it into English, give it a hardcover facelift with a symbol over a red background and sell it at Barnes & Noble. Except for religious conservatives, everyone will be praising the thing and going on about the new Hunger Games Twilight hybrid... The catch, it's readers are mostly guys



lol, this is the only thing I read out of everything you and CTK wrote

And fucking lol

Never be a writer

Ever haha


----------



## ~Avant~ (Jul 16, 2014)

Is anyone else annoying that they renamed the Literature Department to Readers Corner. It makes it so much harder to spot on the bottom scroll for forum jump.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 16, 2014)

I am, but that is off topic.


----------



## Krory (Jul 16, 2014)

ITT: Haters can go fuck themselves, shoulda' been part of the conversation.


----------



## Krory (Jul 16, 2014)

And I don't feel like reading through the pretentious babble - are Sleipnyr and CTK arguing over who has the prettiest main character?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 16, 2014)

krory said:


> And I don't feel like reading through the pretentious babble - are Sleipnyr and CTK arguing over who has the prettiest main character?



Then don't comment on it, simple as that. You're so far off and your trolling is getting old. I guess you're going to cry for a mod to run in here and help again.


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 16, 2014)

25,000 Words on my new novel "The Annihilation of Mankind" and I'm really pretty proud. With my Wedding in 3 weeks, and honeymoon a few weeks after, I probably won't write much in August or September so I feel I gotta push myself now. I'd say I'm around 1/3rd of the way done with it so far. It's my first Global book so it take a bit more research than any of my other works, but it's fun none the less. 

Got my new short story 0-9 coming out July 25th too! 

And "I Killed Someone Tonight" coming out September 25th. 

And hopefully round out my issues with my third Exterminator book and get that out November 25th. 

That is my goal for right now  How's everyone else work coming along?  Anything I should be on the lookout for soon?


----------



## Nordstrom (Jul 16, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Holy Shit.
> 
> I'm siding with CardBoard TubeKnight on this one.



Jennifer Lawrence is hot... Her character isn't. And that's a huge pet peeve of mine.



Lord Yu said:


> Can't stop thinking about mecha. Super Robots, Real Robots....



...biomechanic robots (and that means Evangelion).



Blue said:


> lol, this is the only thing I read out of everything you and CTK wrote
> 
> And fucking lol
> 
> ...



You're horribly late you retard.



krory said:


> ITT: Haters can go fuck themselves, shoulda' been part of the conversation.



Agreed 



krory said:


> And I don't feel like reading through the pretentious babble - are Sleipnyr and CTK arguing over who has the prettiest main character?



No. We are arguing why guys don't have fantasy romance YAs for them, while Japan's full of them... and why I want to fill the West with them to get even with the female demographic 

*☭*

Equality or death


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## crazymtf (Jul 16, 2014)

Guys don't view romance the same way women do. So...won't have much luck with that. No in the west anyway.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 16, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Guys don't view romance the same way women do. So...won't have much luck with that. No in the west anyway.



/thread 

That's what I've been saying.

And Katniss's looks in the novel are debatable because she is describing them.


----------



## crazymtf (Jul 16, 2014)

The way I saw kat in the books was fine to me. I thought she was pretty hot in my mind. Similar to Jen's looks but a little bit shorter hair (Dunno why) either way I never imagined her ugly nor did I imagine the guys "hot and hunky" and I think the movie that everyone is pretty equal in looks. Even crazy psycho bitch is hot in the movie.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 16, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> The way I saw kat in the books was fine to me. I thought she was pretty hot in my mind. Similar to Jen's looks but a little bit shorter hair (Dunno why) either way I never imagined her ugly nor did I imagine the guys "hot and hunky" and I think the movie that everyone is pretty equal in looks. Even crazy psycho bitch is hot in the movie.



I think that her attitude about how men viewed her kind of seemed to tell that she didn't think she was attractive. Like how she was shocked about them liking her and all of that. It's rarer in these kinds of books to get a female character who knows they're hot and actually acts like it. We seem to only get validation from other people of Katniss's attractiveness. That's why I thought it was cool how in Unearthly the girl pretty much says "duh, I'm hot. I'm one quarter angel."


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## Nordstrom (Jul 17, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Guys don't view romance the same way women do. So...won't have much luck with that. No in the west anyway.



I'm willing to bet it all, so just wish me luck. I don't think guys will mind if they know the women are insanely hot and there are lots of pervy stuff, plus the plot being awesome (in my humble opinion) and being more than just romance. It's just that romance is treated differently. Unlike in Harry Potter, there's no competition, and we also get some insight since it's written from the guy's POV rather than from an omniscient one.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> /thread
> 
> That's what I've been saying.
> 
> And Katniss's looks in the novel are debatable because she is describing them.



Well, as I said, let's change that (or start the change) and if not, at least give guys the option so that if they wonder about it one they, rather than frown at the lack of options, they'd know where to look.

That's just the romance too. There's far more than romance, it's just that it takes on a larger role than usual, making it seem like a female oriented YA, but with the genders turned around. 

Easiest way to see it: Genderbend Twilight or The Hunger Games. Enjoy.



crazymtf said:


> The way I saw kat in the books was fine to me. I thought she was pretty hot in my mind. Similar to Jen's looks but a little bit shorter hair (Dunno why) either way I never imagined her ugly nor did I imagine the guys "hot and hunky" and I think the movie that everyone is pretty equal in looks. Even crazy psycho bitch is hot in the movie.



The movies mostly made a great deal to pigeonhole the demographic. They choose a cool actress, but they screwed up her appearance. It's the same that happened to usually sizzling hot Ashley Greene and ice queen MyAnna Buring in Twilight. I noticed that while guys tend to get a facelift, actresses more often than not, suffer a downgrade.



> That's why I thought it was cool how in Unearthly the girl pretty much says "duh, I'm hot. I'm one quarter angel."



Then it gets better. Because my characters know this, but they take it for granted, so they don't even see compliments as compliments.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 18, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> It seems like I'm rare, in that I rarely think about what a person looks like when creating or writing a character.



Man, I don't know what anybody looks like in my stories.  I pretty much give it no thought, making us a minority of two.

I'll post an example of an 15 minute exercise I never completed, because you guys are always giving me excerpts and chapters and examples, and it's making me feel stingy.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



She entered the room, and the door squealed shut behind her.  It was large, with a vacant floor, tiled with black and white patterns like a checkerboard of diamonds.  It reminded her of the cool marble floors her grandfather had in his drawing room, that she would lay across on the hot summer days long past.  As she carefully stepped deeper into the room, she noted more of the design, as well as how her footsteps carried across the chamber, scarcely obstructed by the few chairs tucked neatly between the lining pillars, and otherwise free to echo between the walls and pillars.  Having surveyed the ground and walls, she turned her gaze upwards.  The chandeliers were opulent.  They light bounced and prismed between hundreds, or maybe thousands of crystalline shards.  Perhaps real crystal, if he floors were truly marble like they appeared, and then if so, it stood to reason the chairs were true velvet and mahogany.  

“Only the finest, my dear.”

She immediately dropped her gaze, and found the sing-songy caller.  A man, a gentleman, though no doubt not, stood bowing in the center of the room.  The room she had just checked.  Pushing those thoughts aside, she watched him slowly raise his head, and smile with a twinkle in one eye, and a monocle in the next.  Her stomach churned when she noticed an all too teethy grin grow wide across his face.  She shifted for a bit, as her heart slowed down, and she remembered her position as a lady. 

“How do you do?” she asked with a curtsy.  The man raised his hat to his head, a top hat, that he must have removed for that elongated bow, and tipped it to her.  If only he’d been bowing out.  

“Ahh, a well mannered lady.  It’s rare to find them nowadays.  Such a lost art of etiquette,” he stopped.  “ - I hope I didn’t frighten you with my appearance,” he smirked.

Bullshit.  

“Or er, perhaps not.”




The two concrete physical descriptors for a character are a top hat and monocle, and they only came up because he needed something to tip, and top hats and monocles are a packaged deal.  The one overt descriptor for the girl is that she's female.

I don't remember what the exercise was for, if you were curious.



crazymtf said:


> Guys don't view romance the same way women do. So...won't have much luck with that. No in the west anyway.



Depends on the man.

If you want to write interesting characters, you need to appreciate the differences and nuances of an individual's views on such things as morality and romance, and the mindsets, experiences, lessons, and circumstances that shape them.  Being careful with wording and the generalizations you make goes a long way towards that goal.  So suppose a man grew up watching Lifetime...



> There’s whole essays on the phallic symbolism of the wand in Harry Potter.



wat

...


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jul 19, 2014)

What's the most...uh...disturbing scene you've ever written?

For me, I think it would be this: 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Dalmar is finally in Anetelia and starts thrusting. It looks like she’s enjoying it, all of it and yells out vulgar things at him like “Yes! Yes! Keep doing it like that! Mommy likes it!” Melissa vomits a little, but she doesn’t bother to wipe it off. She’s sitting her own waste after all.
> 
> They go on like this for several long minutes. Dalmar finishes up, Anetelia looks satisfied and disappointed at the same time. Anetelia stands, Dalmar does as well. The witch kisses the boy again. “Now that I’ve taken your virginity,” she whispers, “you can die happy. Do something special for me.” And Dalmar does as she commands. Dalmar takes the knife that Anetelia dropped. He slams the handle against the wall of the basement. Anetelia urges him on with a gesture of her hand, smiling, eye wide with anticipating excitement. Dalmar slams his head into the knife and takes it out only to do it again. The knife enters through his ear.
> 
> Melissa upchucks a larger amount of vomit this time. Dalmar does this repeatedly. Blood splatters the ground, across his face and down his body. Anetelia’s sadistic, manic laugh is one that will never leave a person’s mind no matter how hard they try to forget it. Dalmar drops the knife, finally. He drops to his knees and then on his face after. His eyes, wide open, staring at Melissa, dead. Melissa comes to her senses. She looks around the room and screams. She screams and cries like she’s having one of her mental breakdowns. Her temples throb, veins popping out of her neck. Melissa’s tears stop. Blood replaces them.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 19, 2014)

I've had a couple cannibalism scenes that went a little off the deep end.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I'm willing to bet it all, so just wish me luck. I don't think guys will mind if they know the women are insanely hot and there are lots of pervy stuff, plus the plot being awesome (in my humble opinion) and being more than just romance. It's just that romance is treated differently. Unlike in Harry Potter, there's no competition, and we also get some insight since it's written from the guy's POV rather than from an omniscient one.



Harry Potter is written from close third, the book never leaves Harry perspective really and goes through great lengths to keep it that way (even putting Harry in Voldemort's head or watching through a snake's eyes). 

I'm not saying that there are no men like that, but it would be a lot rarer for them to enjoy that than you would think. My tastes in romance and types of book are pretty strange for a guy, but the idea of that kind of thing doesn't really sound appealing. Of course I'm older than the target age you wanted. But most of the readers of YA are probably adults these days. 




> Well, as I said, let's change that (or start the change) and if not, at least give guys the option so that if they wonder about it one they, rather than frown at the lack of options, they'd know where to look.



I doubt we'd be starting the change. I'm sure there are books out there like you have described. The thing is you're challenging gender roles and that turns a lot of people off. So if you're looking to entice guys with romance, challenging what they're likely to find romantic isn't going to do it. 



> That's just the romance too. There's far more than romance, it's just that it takes on a larger role than usual, making it seem like a female oriented YA, but with the genders turned around.


I hope the "lot more of that" part is actually more plot because the biggest issue with Twilight is there's not much conflict. 



> Easiest way to see it: Genderbend Twilight or The Hunger Games. Enjoy.


 You compare these two things like they're that similar. Other than there being two love interests and a female protagonist they're not. 



> The movies mostly made a great deal to pigeonhole the demographic. They choose a cool actress, but they screwed up her appearance. It's the same that happened to usually sizzling hot Ashley Greene and ice queen MyAnna Buring in Twilight. I noticed that while guys tend to get a facelift, actresses more often than not, suffer a downgrade.


I don't know dude, this is all making it sound like you're just standing in the closet with the door open. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just there's nothing wrong with Ashley Greene. I've seen nude pictures of the girl taken on a cell phone and she looked like she was photoshopped still. 



> Then it gets better. Because my characters know this, but they take it for granted, so they don't even see compliments as compliments.


Be careful not to write a bunch of douches. I mean, I kind of wanted a bitch as a character so I wrote her that way. But I have to be careful in what was I show her being mean to others and full of herself. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Man, I don't know what anybody looks like in my stories.  I pretty much give it no thought, making us a minority of two.



Some authors don't. I think that it's a style choice and really it can go a little ways to enhance the story. I think it's interesting how little you know about Shadow from American Gods, but the things that are peppered in there are juicy. 



> I'll post an example of an 15 minute exercise I never completed, because you guys are always giving me excerpts and chapters and examples, and it's making me feel stingy.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



There's something about his teethy grin in there too. I would count that as a description. Let me see if I have something I've done recently with description 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Hes younger looking than his tone let on. His eyes are sultry and flirtatious; and for some reason I cant place, familiar. His chiseled cleft chin is dotted with the perfect amount of stubble. The suit hes wearing fits him the way all the magazines say they should and it looks like it might cost more than some new cars and holy shit, Im checking this obviously too old guy out.
> 
> A smile appears on his face as if he knows what Im doing and he unhooks his arm from mine before handing the bottle back. Just an old trick that I saw at a party once, he says backing away with his cane still well off the ground.








> Depends on the man.


True.



> If you want to write interesting characters, you need to appreciate the differences and nuances of an individual's views on such things as morality and romance, and the mindsets, experiences, lessons, and circumstances that shape them.  Being careful with wording and the generalizations you make goes a long way towards that goal.  So suppose a man grew up watching Lifetime...


Then I'm sure that man would have gouged his eyes out because Lifetime is pretty awful television. Sure, all of us are different special people on paper. But the reason why things like Fifty Shades of Grey come out of nowhere is not because they're tapping into something that's not common, it's because they're tapping into something that is common and ignored. We're still working through women's rights, so the choices for them to express themselves sexually and cater to their desires are kind of new. 

With men we're still very firmly set in the past. The "macho" ideals of the past are still very prevalent and you're less likely to find a man who would read something framed as a romance novels. 

Even if a guy grew up consuming "women's" fiction and television, he'd more than likely emulate the guy in the situations he witnessed. In the case of watching Lifetime he'd become some rapist woman beater who didn't take care of his kids. 





> wat


Wands were kind of seen as phallic before Harry Potter. But there's an issue of wands in the last book and how they relate to impotence "Harry's wand is broken". I can't remember the whole thing because it was years ago when I read about it. 





Malicious Friday said:


> What's the most...uh...disturbing scene you've ever written?
> 
> For me, I think it would be this:



I honestly can't think of anything that was really that disturbing. It was probably something from fan fiction because I don't care as much about it there. I tend to leave my characters out of truly fucked up situations, at least for now. 



Lord Yu said:


> I've had a couple cannibalism scenes that went a little off the deep end.



I did have one girl who was feral eat part of this demon's body. But it wasn't meant to be disturbing.


----------



## Nordstrom (Jul 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Harry Potter is written from close third, the book never leaves Harry perspective really and goes through great lengths to keep it that way (even putting Harry in Voldemort's head or watching through a snake's eyes).



But it didn't feel the same (I read both) and it usually lacks the whole "what if I were in X shoes" that the person feels from reading first person.



> I'm not saying that there are no men like that, but it would be a lot rarer for them to enjoy that than you would think. My tastes in romance and types of book are pretty strange for a guy, but the idea of that kind of thing doesn't really sound appealing. Of course I'm older than the target age you wanted. But most of the readers of YA are probably adults these days.



I really, really doubt it. We like sexy stuff a lot. Just because petting happens more often and there are more compliments being thrown your way doesn't makes it off putting. The demographic starts at 14 to 31 which is what I've understood as YA.



> I doubt we'd be starting the change. I'm sure there are books out there like you have described. The thing is you're challenging gender roles and that turns a lot of people off. So if you're looking to entice guys with romance, challenging what they're likely to find romantic isn't going to do it.



I don't really think that by making multiple girls fall in love with the guy and for there to be next to no competition makes it that off putting. Even more so the idea of being put on a pedestal. Who doesn't likes that? Please, don't tell me the old "men like to chase" myth.



> I hope the "lot more of that" part is actually more plot because the biggest issue with Twilight is there's not much conflict.



Twilight was mostly a love story with everything else being challenges they had to overcome. While the first book is that on a much larger scale (main male lead is on an engaged marriage with a despicable girl and main female lead is dying from a disease and attempts to find a cure to stay with him, which is what sets the story in motion), the story itself has far more plot than that. Think Harry Potter expanded vastly and being readily available as an open sandbox. It is a world with humongous crossover and fanfiction potential and is meant to fuel the fandom by giving them something that they can see as theirs, even if the characters and initial storyline are mine. Think of it as a massively multiplayer world of sorts where my characters are the main story, which in and on itself changes as it lacks a core (I even divided it in "arcs") and isn't a one trick pony like Twilight or The Hunger Games. In this sense, it is like Tolkien. Storywise, the main mythos is going to revolve around Valkyries, legendary beings that escort fallen warriors to a world of freedom and magic's return to Earth and how Earth gradually is inducted into the multiverse, which is composed of a vast plethora of magitek, technomagic, magic or technology civilizations and species, as well as their own mythos and regulatory bodies and the different adventures, stories and legends and mythos that lead different people to different ideals and the completion of their dreams...



> You compare these two things like they're that similar. Other than there being two love interests and a female protagonist they're not.



Mostly because they've been a fad with fangirls and many people see Collins as Meyer's spiritual successor.



> I don't know dude, this is all making it sound like you're just standing in the closet with the door open. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just there's nothing wrong with Ashley Greene. I've seen nude pictures of the girl taken on a cell phone and she looked like she was photoshopped still.





The make up and haircut in Twilight messed her up. Badly. She was beautiful when she shot that bodypaint ad.

But Kristen was the worst victim...


*Spoiler*: __ 









But when you can make MyAnna Buring go from  to , I guess it's going to look ugly either way.



> Be careful not to write a bunch of douches. I mean, I kind of wanted a bitch as a character so I wrote her that way. But I have to be careful in what was I show her being mean to others and full of herself.



They aren't mean. It's just that telling the main female lead is less likely to elicit an "Really? Thank you! You're so kind!" and more of a "Yeah, I guess" and they are far more likely to highlight the beauty of those not of their kin than their own.

Also, given that their society was pretty much upside down in everything (from gender roles to geopolitics) the girls don't see their beauty as being that important, but they really act competitively. Enough for the guy to wind up with a box full of jewelry just because some wanted to flaunt "I'm much wealthier than her and there's nothing I couldn't give you if you wanted it"... Douches they are not sir, but they may like flaunting their advantages and wooing you in any way they can, even if they must fight each other off (and it does escalate into a serious fight between the five until main lead gets in the way, gets hurt, and they all stop. His guy friends tell them to keep out until he heals and gets some rest afterwards).

Also, you were on to something with the closet thing. The main is bi.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> But it didn't feel the same (I read both) and it usually lacks the whole "what if I were in X shoes" that the person feels from reading first person.



Well it's third person limited, it's closer than omniscient, but slightly distanced from first. It's kind of meant to be comfortable place for the voice of the character to not have to be present in the writing. 



> I really, really doubt it. We like sexy stuff a lot. Just because petting happens more often and there are more compliments being thrown your way doesn't makes it off putting. The demographic starts at 14 to 31 which is what I've understood as YA.



I think that guys perceive themselves that way for the most part and would be reluctant to buy something that went against that. Granted the e-reader is good for keeping secrets, but I think that men worry a lot more about how they see themselves too. 



> I don't really think that by making multiple girls fall in love with the guy and for there to be next to no competition makes it that off putting. Even more so the idea of being put on a pedestal. Who doesn't likes that? Please, don't tell me the old "men like to chase" myth.



Some people don't like being put on a pedestal. Like from someone I like, I'd rather have a girl who actually likes me, but doesn't put me on a pedestal. It's a lot to live up to and it just doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel real in books either. 



> Twilight was mostly a love story with everything else being challenges they had to overcome. While the first book is that on a much larger scale (main male lead is on an engaged marriage with a despicable girl and main female lead is dying from a disease and attempts to find a cure to stay with him, which is what sets the story in motion), the story itself has far more plot than that. Think Harry Potter expanded vastly and being readily available as an open sandbox. It is a world with humongous crossover and fanfiction potential and is meant to fuel the fandom by giving them something that they can see as theirs, even if the characters and initial storyline are mine. Think of it as a massively multiplayer world of sorts where my characters are the main story, which in and on itself changes as it lacks a core (I even divided it in "arcs") and isn't a one trick pony like Twilight or The Hunger Games. In this sense, it is like Tolkien. Storywise, the main mythos is going to revolve around Valkyries, legendary beings that escort fallen warriors to a world of freedom and magic's return to Earth and how Earth gradually is inducted into the multiverse, which is composed of a vast plethora of magitek, technomagic, magic or technology civilizations and species, as well as their own mythos and regulatory bodies and the different adventures, stories and legends and mythos that lead different people to different ideals and the completion of their dreams...



This seems a little bit cluttered, honestly. I don't know how other people are with their mythos. But I feel better with a clean mythos cut to the bare essentials. I know that it seems like I say that about everything, but streamlined and focused seems to be better in most cases. 




> Mostly because they've been a fad with fangirls and many people see Collins as Meyer's spiritual successor.


I don't think they're a fad with fan girls only, I mean a lot of dudes like Hunger Games. 




> The make up and haircut in Twilight messed her up. Badly. She was beautiful when she shot that bodypaint ad.
> 
> But Kristen was the worst victim...
> 
> ...



There's a huge difference between still photography and how someone looks in real life and in person. I think that Stewart in those two pictures looks alright. Both of them are edited in different ways. Plus, you seem kind of hung up on the look of an actress. I just go with "she looks like this sort of" and then go from there. 



> But when you can make MyAnna Buring go from  to , I guess it's going to look ugly either way.


 
I don't really see what you're going at here, they're filtering a lot and putting odd makeup on in Twilight. It's not supposed to make people look like a model. They're dead. 




> They aren't mean. It's just that telling the main female lead is less likely to elicit an "Really? Thank you! You're so kind!" and more of a "Yeah, I guess" and they are far more likely to highlight the beauty of those not of their kin than their own.



I'm not sure what you mean. 



> Also, given that their society was pretty much upside down in everything (from gender roles to geopolitics) the girls don't see their beauty as being that important, but they really act competitively. Enough for the guy to wind up with a box full of jewelry just because some wanted to flaunt "I'm much wealthier than her and there's nothing I couldn't give you if you wanted it"... Douches they are not sir, but they may like flaunting their advantages and wooing you in any way they can, even if they must fight each other off (and it does escalate into a serious fight between the five until main lead gets in the way, gets hurt, and they all stop. His guy friends tell them to keep out until he heals and gets some rest afterwards).
> 
> Also, you were on to something with the closet thing. The main is bi.



Many of the guys in YA are douches and if you're talking about making the girls fill that role they're going to be douchey chicks. Just make sure you're ready to walk that line.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well it's third person limited, it's closer than omniscient, but slightly distanced from first. It's kind of meant to be comfortable place for the voice of the character to not have to be present in the writing.



I feel naturally inclined to first person for some reason. I just find it more enjoyable.



> I think that guys perceive themselves that way for the most part and would be reluctant to buy something that went against that. Granted the e-reader is good for keeping secrets, but I think that men worry a lot more about how they see themselves too.



What way?



> Some people don't like being put on a pedestal. Like from someone I like, I'd rather have a girl who actually likes me, but doesn't put me on a pedestal. It's a lot to live up to and it just doesn't feel real. It doesn't feel real in books either.



Then again, it's an urban high fantasy. It's supposed to feel surreal (not unrealistic) to convey the main male leads true existence (his power as a Valkyrie).



> This seems a little bit cluttered, honestly. I don't know how other people are with their mythos. But I feel better with a clean mythos cut to the bare essentials. I know that it seems like I say that about everything, but streamlined and focused seems to be better in most cases.



It can also be laid barebones like this...


World is a wide open sandbox multiverse
It is meant to be highly customizable, allowing for the fan following to build their own mythos within it's frame. Depending on how it goes, I could even allow for other authors to use it
The "world" is available for everyone to use for their stories
The story follows different characters as they discover their uniqueness, and at large, Earth, as it becomes a magical civilization and a full fledged planet (a world that interacts with other supernatural civilizations in the multiverse) and how we react to magic becoming common place and a right
[sp]Specifically, Story line PRELUDE following the first three books. First book is main lead (Aston) discovery of the supernatural, his romance with 6 different women, 1 in an arranged setting and rejected and the discovery of his own supernatural heritage, with a subplot revolving around his main love interest's terminal disease (which is healed by the end of the story) and a competition for a piece of jewelry to settle a dispute between two Italian treasure hunting vampire covens (Aston has it, finding it when he was younger).[/sp]



> I don't think they're a fad with fan girls only, I mean a lot of dudes like Hunger Games.



Some like Twilight too (me) but they aren't the target audience. Well, in the Hunger Games case, fangirls aren't either, but then the movies came...




> There's a huge difference between still photography and how someone looks in real life and in person. I think that Stewart in those two pictures looks alright. Both of them are edited in different ways. Plus, you seem kind of hung up on the look of an actress. I just go with "she looks like this sort of" and then go from there.



I usually use an anime image of an existing character and or try modifying it or even making them from scratch, mostly because of how tacky they look, so I try getting an actress' picture so as to have a "live action film" appearance for them.

If anything, you could say I'm hung on chiseled factions, powdery makeup and no bangs (specially the last one, since bangs are hot) and I prefer saturating images and increasing their vibrance rather than desaturating them, which seems to be done pretty often nowadays.



> I don't really see what you're going at here, they're filtering a lot and putting odd makeup on in Twilight. It's not supposed to make people look like a model. They're dead.



Point taken 




> I'm not sure what you mean.



Talking to them about their beauty is as interesting as two of us talking about the weather. They are so used to being beautiful complimenting them is useless. You might as well tell a wall you like it's color. On the other side, if they find something attractive in someone not like them, they are going to find it oddly exotic and be inspired by it.



> Many of the guys in YA are douches and if you're talking about making the girls fill that role they're going to be douchey chicks. Just make sure you're ready to walk that line.



They are not douches, but they are competitive. They'll pull all the stops to get the guy's attention and eliminate the competition if they're losing. The fight gets bad because one of the interests was sent to arrest the main female lead, and she was provoked when she unknowingly struck a nerve with her pursuer. Mentioning she wouldn't let her family die like other a cold workaholic woman in front of an officer whose family almost dies for putting her job first is bound to make said officer feel awful.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 20, 2014)

I keep getting ideas for the mecha storyline but it's like maybe two thirds into the sequel series. Dammit, can't even get through this first story.


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## Krory (Jul 20, 2014)

It's never too late for mecha.


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## crazymtf (Jul 20, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> What's the most...uh...disturbing scene you've ever written?
> 
> For me, I think it would be this:



A rape scene in "Killing Your Boss" for sure.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 20, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> What's the most...uh...disturbing scene you've ever written?



There are many of those, but they stop happening before the first book ends...


*Spoiler*: __ 






The worst one happens in the backstory, near the beginning, and involves a group of black apartheid protesters being shot and raided mercilessly, raped, beaten, organs gouged... It establishes how horrible and racist NP policymakers were.
An Israeli offensive against Palestine (which would prove prophetic) in which casualties reach the 2300 civilian mark.
Germany's shift from support to condemnation of Israel, which outright leads to a lot of Nazi callbacks, specially since Merkel demands NATO to allow German rearmament or they'll withdraw.
The Russian invasion of North and South Korea, with a 20,000,000 death toll, and the majority being from Seoul.
The Palestinian counteroffensive and invasion of Tel Aviv (which happens after Sylvanian support arrives) and the ensuing deportation of supporters of Netanyahu policies, leading 650,000 Israeli to flee abroad, some of them with only the clothing they had on at the moment.
East Germany getting Russo Sylvanian support and seceding from the Bundesrepublik
Japan siding with Russia to get the Russians to raid the South Korean resistance in Liancourt.
Prequel main lead Jade infiltrating USS JFK and gassing it with Sarin gas, leading everyone to die or evacuate.
Catalonia, Quebec and Scotland secession starting a wave of nationalism that breaks the EU apart and leads to widespread rioting and looting in most of Western Europe, along the rise of RusChi and a new, democratic Federal Republic of North Korea.
Main lead witnesses Snowden get tortured after the Russian government returns him near the beginning of the story.
Perhaps not disturbing, but sad on it's own right, the Invasion of the United States, along with it's dissolution into the US and CSA and how the Star Spangled Banner is played on TV one last time before the US President Emergency Broadcast System signs off for good.
The sinking of Latin America, the ASEAN (save Singapore), Taiwan, India and South Korea, which is meant to feel like a hard hit.

On the main story...

Main antagonist being hit with an attack so overpowered her body is liquefied, causing a rain of blood to fall on the snow and turning a large area crimson. The main character vows never to kill someone again. I enact the "no one left behind" policy then and refuse to kill characters from then on in.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 21, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I feel naturally inclined to first person for some reason. I just find it more enjoyable.


It's the most rewarding or, at least, I feel like it is. But it's also the hardest for me. It takes more out of me because I have to put myself in that person's shoes more than if I was just writing about them. 

And it's harder for me to switch gears from a first person story to something else. Where as with third person I can jump projects easily. 




> What way?


A lot of the dudes I meet want to be seen as tough and seem to want to live up to this standard of ideal manliness. That ideal doesn't mesh well with the idea of being into romance novels, even if they're written more for males. Sure there will be guys who don't care or don't mind hiding it. When I was reading Confessions of a Shopaholic I didn't care what people said about me doing it and a lot of people had something to say. 





> Then again, it's an urban high fantasy. It's supposed to feel surreal (not unrealistic) to convey the main male leads true existence (his power as a Valkyrie).



It's...hard to define. Power fantasies are popular, but a certain kind of pedestal seems to be less popular. And the type of power fantasy seems to have a gender divide. I don't agree with it, but it seems to.  





> It can also be laid barebones like this...
> 
> 
> World is a wide open sandbox multiverse
> ...



I think I remember you saying some of this when we discussed the type of fan fiction you'd try to get readers out of doing. I write without worrying what the fans will do with my stuff. Planning for them to do anything could put a damper on what I want to do or what feels right for characters. 




> Some like Twilight too (me) but they aren't the target audience. Well, in the Hunger Games case, fangirls aren't either, but then the movies came...


I see Hunger Games as more friendly for general audiences. I will admit to enjoying the last Twilight movie because shit got hard core. But another member here, Auraya, once explained to me a long time ago that the reason she liked Twilight is because of the idea of being desired and needed so much by another person. 




> I usually use an anime image of an existing character and or try modifying it or even making them from scratch, mostly because of how tacky they look, so I try getting an actress' picture so as to have a "live action film" appearance for them.



I can draw well enough to actually make characters from scratch, but it's too much trouble. Also, I don't have the skill to make different people look different enough. My drawing skills are pretty rudimentary, especially since I haven't used them in a while. 

I don't know many anime characters, don't watch much anime. But I have had my characters drawn in that style. This is an old drawing of the Angel of Death. 






> If anything, you could say I'm hung on chiseled factions, powdery makeup and no bangs (specially the last one, since bangs are hot) and I prefer saturating images and increasing their vibrance rather than desaturating them, which seems to be done pretty often nowadays.



Sounds like you'd like my photography, except the bangs part. No one I know has bangs. The desaturation thing is a trick to make things seem "dramatic". 




> Talking to them about their beauty is as interesting as two of us talking about the weather. They are so used to being beautiful complimenting them is useless. You might as well tell a wall you like it's color. On the other side, if they find something attractive in someone not like them, they are going to find it oddly exotic and be inspired by it.


Then they are bitter about it? I'm asking because that's a neat angle, I mean, I read a Harry Potter fan fiction thing about it some years ago where part of the story was wirtten from the standpoint of a Veela girl, might have been Fleur, who was tired of men fawning over her so easily. 





> They are not douches, but they are competitive. They'll pull all the stops to get the guy's attention and eliminate the competition if they're losing. The fight gets bad because one of the interests was sent to arrest the main female lead, and she was provoked when she unknowingly struck a nerve with her pursuer. Mentioning she wouldn't let her family die like other a cold workaholic woman in front of an officer whose family almost dies for putting her job first is bound to make said officer feel awful.



So it gets similar to a harem. I mean I saw some parts of a harem show and it seemed like that's what the women were doing. 



crazymtf said:


> A rape scene in "Killing Your Boss" for sure.



I don't know if I could ever write a rape scene in anything. Writing that a character had been raped is one thing (something I don't even do), but describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's the most rewarding or, at least, I feel like it is. But it's also the hardest for me. It takes more out of me because I have to put myself in that person's shoes more than if I was just writing about them.
> 
> And it's harder for me to switch gears from a first person story to something else. Where as with third person I can jump projects easily.



Living it actually makes it more engaging for me. I don't like treating my characters as a product, but as a glorified commodity. To me, I don't just write as if they didn't exist. I try to put myself in that world and in character so as to be able to write realistic reactions. Since I can go in character easy due to some acting stunts (don't tell my old man, he'd kill me), I can write as if it were a person living the life and this makes everything more expressive.

I don't switch them often enough for this to become noticeable.



> A lot of the dudes I meet want to be seen as tough and seem to want to live up to this standard of ideal manliness. That ideal doesn't mesh well with the idea of being into romance novels, even if they're written more for males. Sure there will be guys who don't care or don't mind hiding it. When I was reading Confessions of a Shopaholic I didn't care what people said about me doing it and a lot of people had something to say.



I know, but men are a huge demographic. I don't think everyone wants to be next Most Macho Merc this Side of Fort Farthest. Plus, I think those guys will read the book for the juicy bits rather than the main character. Those juicy bits won't get pruned, no matter what.



> It's...hard to define. Power fantasies are popular, but a certain kind of pedestal seems to be less popular. And the type of power fantasy seems to have a gender divide. I don't agree with it, but it seems to.



Power fantasies may feature a theme that is too offensive at times, whereas others undermine and alienate a part of the demographic. However, this one isn't. The whole point of this particular kind of power fantasy is to convey specialness, not alienate a particular demographic or kind of reader.

_"The best kind of power is that which you don't need._

The guy is stronger than any many and is wealthy, he wounds up obscenely pretty and cannot be challenged by the end of the first storyline, yet everyone and their mother would die for him in a heartbeat and make sure he's utmost comfortable... And worship him like their Love Goddess, simply because he's something unique. Among a flock of extraordinarily beautiful and exotic beings, there's one even more gorgeous and rare than them all standing out, doing nothing but being himself. It's such a provocative act that everyone sets their sights on him and want to please him, simply because being in his company makes every moment of their near perfect existence even more magical and blissful, almost close to perfect ecstasy. A climax of carnal and spiritual pleasure and enjoyment so high that no joy can trump it. It is a pleasure just to be around him and every moment close to him is an endless climax to your self.

And he feels even better than this, because to his eyes, all of them are special and unique and he feels overwhelmed by their beauty, specialty and how perfect their existence is and how they all want to serve him. He can't walk without feeling his life is going beyond perfection and if he still had the frailness of a human, every step would lead him to fall tumbling on the floor, panting and all flushed, because it all feels sooooo good!!! Just tooooo gooooood! :ah!

If you could give someone's life (as in, living itself) an orgasm, it'd be like theirs were being given the best ones ever and they could only get better and better and they become much stronger and enjoyable by being near him, and his is so outright powerful from the get go he can barely be considered alive in the same sense as mortals. He's much higher than we all are. It's a glorious feeling and it's like heaven falls horribly short of anything he'd be feeling. It's as if his life is a fantasy... A fantasy and an embrace, an embrace which he never wants to end- and that simply feels so good and it'd drive a normal person insane!

Yeah, that's how it is.



> I think I remember you saying some of this when we discussed the type of fan fiction you'd try to get readers out of doing. I write without worrying what the fans will do with my stuff. Planning for them to do anything could put a damper on what I want to do or what feels right for characters.



That's not it. I made a world that is large enough with room to expand it further. Fans can use that room rather than go full on AU. It is this way so as to allow room for others to use it while keeping runaway growth in check.



> I see Hunger Games as more friendly for general audiences. I will admit to enjoying the last Twilight movie because shit got hard core. But another member here, Auraya, once explained to me a long time ago that the reason she liked Twilight is because of the idea of being desired and needed so much by another person.



Here, it'd be more because of someone so average being suddenly regarded as special and "uber alles in der welt" so to speak. 

Another reason is the whole "fantasy romance in a foreign country with a foreign love interest" and how I've always fantasized with it. A fairy tale romance with a foreign celebrity-esque woman in a foreign country is a common theme in fantasy romances. I think that Hillary Duff movie whose name I don't remember.



> I can draw well enough to actually make characters from scratch, but it's too much trouble. Also, I don't have the skill to make different people look different enough. My drawing skills are pretty rudimentary, especially since I haven't used them in a while.
> 
> I don't know many anime characters, don't watch much anime. But I have had my characters drawn in that style. This is an old drawing of the Angel of Death.



I can too, and even have some illustrations, but I still needed a more realistic look if I felt like depicting it IRL.

Sounds like you'd like my photography, except the bangs part. No one I know has bangs. The desaturation thing is a trick to make things seem "dramatic". 

Well, there's also the heavy contrast. Contrast isn't too nice on my sight, and I'd prefer similar colors with heavy saturation so as to have a soft effect.

As with bangs attracting me, it has to do with concealing the person's face and focusing on their cheeks and eyes. This gives an striking appearance to the person, as you'd have nowhere to look but at their cute, full cheeks, or their eyes.



> Then they are bitter about it? I'm asking because that's a neat angle, I mean, I read a Harry Potter fan fiction thing about it some years ago where part of the story was wirtten from the standpoint of a Veela girl, might have been Fleur, who was tired of men fawning over her so easily.



Neutral actually. Beauty to them is fairly mundane. It is like telling them that they have hair.



> So it gets similar to a harem. I mean I saw some parts of a harem show and it seemed like that's what the women were doing.



Yeah, but it has a place in the story.


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## crazymtf (Jul 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't know if I could ever write a rape scene in anything. Writing that a character had been raped is one thing (something I don't even do), but describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try.



It was the only chapter I wrote the day I did, and I needed a day to relax after it. For me, when I write, I try to live the scene. And it wasn't an easy scene to write. Especially the dialog. It was...unsettling. However, when my wife asked me why I even had it in the book I told her this. 

I won't sacrifice my characters morals/intentions/motives for the sake of what I believe is right or wrong. If the action fits the character it will be written. That's that. 

So even if it's tough to write, I'll do it. However, I understand not ever wanting too. It's...deeply odd to write something you hate (Child molestation, rape, ect...)


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 22, 2014)

Aww.  She is kawaii.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 22, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> I won't sacrifice my characters morals/intentions/motives for the sake of what I believe is right or wrong. If the action fits the character it will be written. That's that.



I'm quoting this.


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## crazymtf (Jul 22, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I'm quoting this.



Oh, thanks  Guess should put it on my Goodreads for quotes haha.


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## Risyth (Jul 22, 2014)

> I don't know if I could ever write a rape scene in anything. Writing that a character had been raped is one thing (something I don't even do), but describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try.



*The story waits for none of them, so it's nothing personal unless you're in the story and doing it yourself. The degree to which you love a character is best measured by how much you feel for them outside of writing specific scenes.*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 22, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> It was the only chapter I wrote the day I did, and I needed a day to relax after it. For me, when I write, I try to live the scene. And it wasn't an easy scene to write. Especially the dialog. It was...unsettling. However, when my wife asked me why I even had it in the book I told her this.
> 
> I won't sacrifice my characters morals/intentions/motives for the sake of what I believe is right or wrong. If the action fits the character it will be written. That's that.
> 
> So even if it's tough to write, I'll do it. However, I understand not ever wanting too. It's...deeply odd to write something you hate (Child molestation, rape, ect...)



I just skip so much with them already and this seems like a great thing to leave out completely. I'm not saying that no one should ever do it, but for me personally I don't bother with it happening on the page. I don't have any characters who have been sexually assaulted currently and it's kind of hard for it to happen considering that they're mostly impervious to most toxins and ungodly strong. 

And rape scenes are so, so commonly written about. They're mostly women being raped and all too often they veer into this kind of sick sexual fantasy rather than actually being horrific. Many authors seem to think it's the making of strong female characters--them getting over it and getting tough. But it's kind of cliched and offensive. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Aww.  She is kawaii.



Thanks, she looks a lot different now. I don't really have a recent drawing of her. But she's supposed to be half black, so there's that. 



Risyth said:


> *The story waits for none of them, so it's nothing personal unless you're in the story and doing it yourself. The degree to which you love a character is best measured by how much you feel for them outside of writing specific scenes.*



It's very personal. The characters are an extension of myself. They're little things I created to live fictional lives and while horrible things will happen to them along the way I don't need to describe every one of them and I don't really feel like rape is something I want to touch on in that way because it's very typical. 

Every work of art is a self-portrait and autobiographical. It says something about the person who made it, even if they struggle for it not to.


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## Tyrael (Jul 23, 2014)

I dislike rape in stories because it tends towards cheap shock tactics and harms the story rather than enhance it.

Either it's done in kind of throw-away, look-how-evil-this-character-is or it's done as a poorly-researched and irritating character story that relies on common misconceptions. Both cheapen the story, the characters and makes everything feel just a lot less substantial.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 23, 2014)

I'm not a fan of rape.  I don't think I'd ever write it.  If for some reason there was a rapist I was writing about, all their raping would be done off screen/panel/print, or in passing on a criminal record or something.  But even that feels like a cheap ploy to make the character seem more menacing.

Like Tyreal said, I've never seen it enhance a story or character.  It all comes off as fantasy, or a desire to be dark, and it fails.  So I'm not a fan of it, and I wouldn't ever really bother trying to be the .001% that handles it well.


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## Krory (Jul 23, 2014)

>Not a fan of rape

God, I would hope so.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 23, 2014)

I've had a bit of the old sexual violence in my story but I always consider it heavily. I never use it to shock.


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## Risyth (Jul 23, 2014)

*When a rape happens, it happens. While I'm not denying how heavy the subject/scene is/would be (hopefully), the severity of the action is a poor excuse for leaving it out.

Do you write rape to enhance a story? Or do you write it simply because it's what occurs in a scene, as if the story were real life? If the former, you're story's contrived. If you're assuming the former when you judge the concept of having rape in novels, you're missing the point or focusing on the lowest quality proses.

*


> It's very personal. The characters are an extension of myself. They're little things I created to live fictional lives and while horrible things will happen to them along the way I don't need to describe every one of them and I don't really feel like rape is something I want to touch on in that way because it's very typical.
> 
> Every work of art is a self-portrait and autobiographical. It says something about the person who made it, even if they struggle for it not to.


*I know I'm gonna get it for this, but you need to toughen up. If you love your characters so much that you're willing to let your story suffer because you don't want to write certain scenes with those characters...you don't love your story as much as you should. The story is a story that needs to be told--if it's worth telling--, and the events in a story shouldn't discriminate because of an author's outside bias.

As for rape being "typical," that's both a lie and a poor excuse. Rape isn't typical. Are homicides typical? Will you not write them? Either way, not writing a tragic scene for a character/characters because you think the events in them are too typical implies you want something more specially bad to happen to them, which defeats the purpose of your talking about how much you cherish your characters to the point of not and never wanting to write them as victims in a rape scene.

No, not every work of art is autobiographical. If I wrote an excellent trollfic, that wouldn't mean I have the ideals I put in the fic. If I painted a great picture of a beautiful man kissing me, that wouldn't make me a homosexual or even mean I dabble in such thoughts. It's simply something I'd have done. Likewise, if you write a novel, no matter how great, it only pertains to and reflects on your ideals if you want it to. You're probably projecting based on how you feel about the story you're writing. That or you're confusing other's assumptions about an author with the truth. 

Not that that has anything to do with rape scenes: again, if something's to *supposed* to happen in your story, it *will* happen.*


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## Tyrael (Jul 23, 2014)

Always seems really phony to me to hide behind "real life" to be honest, and since most people's perception of what is "real" tends to be predicated on misconceptions I don't really give that argument any credence.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 23, 2014)

Risyth said:


> When a rape happens, it happens. While I'm not denying how heavy the subject/scene is/would be (hopefully), the severity of the action is a poor excuse for leaving it out.



The thing is that a lot of things happen in the course of the day. I don't write characters that have been shaped by rape. Therefore it's not something that's happened yet. On top of that, I cut away from sex scenes most of the time too, so it's not just a matter of me not liking something being the reasoning behind me doing it. 



> Do you write rape to enhance a story? Or do you write it simply because it's what occurs in a scene, as if the story were real life? If the former, you're story's contrived. If you're assuming the former when you judge the concept of having rape in novels, you're missing the point or focusing on the lowest quality proses.



My stories aren't real life and they're not like real life. The world is based on the real world, but it's also a world where someone can pick up a car above their head or take a bullet without a hospital trip. They're fantasy. And as a personal choice I don't write rape. 

And why are you writing prose with "s" at the end? That's pretentious and completely unnecessary. 



> I know I'm gonna get it for this, but you need to toughen up. If you love your characters so much that you're willing to let your story suffer because you don't want to write certain scenes with those characters...you don't love your story as much as you should. The story is a story that needs to be told--if it's worth telling--, and the events in a story shouldn't discriminate because of an author's outside bias.



That was an imitation of the flowery nonsense you were speaking earlier. "The story wants none of it"...this isn't the Romantic Period. 

But I think rape should only be touched upon when it can be handled properly. It doesn't mean I will quit a book when there's a rape, it doesn't mean I think it shouldn't be written about, but it does mean I don't have to write it because I don't do that. 



> As for rape being "typical," that's both a lie and a poor excuse. Rape isn't typical. Are homicides typical? Will you not write them? Either way, not writing a tragic scene for a character/characters because you think the events in them are too typical implies you want something more specially bad to happen to them, which defeats the purpose of your talking about how much you cherish your characters to the point of not and never wanting to write them as victims in a rape scene.



Rape is so typical as an attempt to make a story dark or edgy that almost everyone in here claimed their most disturbing scene was rape. Almost every big fan fiction I come across has some rape in it, a lot of novels have rape in them, TV shows are peppered with rape, Game of Thrones adds rapes that weren't in the books. Buffy was almost raped and there was a rape scene planned for Firefly. 

For someone who claims they don't read other's "proses" you sure have a lot of opinions about what is and isn't common in writing. Homicide is different, when I write about someone dying there's usually something to fit the tone of the story to it and people tend to react a lot less to homicide in terms of being upset by it. Killing isn't something I do trivially just to be realistic or prove a point, it's a plot point. 

And I really don't write that much murder or even death in my stuff either. 



> No, not every work of art is autobiographical. If I wrote an excellent trollfic, that wouldn't mean I have the ideals I put in the fic. If I painted a great picture of a beautiful man kissing me, that wouldn't make me a homosexual or even mean I dabble in such thoughts. It's simply something I'd have done. Likewise, if you write a novel, no matter how great, it only pertains to and reflects on your ideals if you want it to. You're probably projecting based on how you feel about the story you're writing. That or you're confusing other's assumptions about an author with the truth.



If you wrote a troll fic it still says something about you, the kinds of things you think are funny, the kinds of things you're tired of seeing in fiction or something. Many, many small gestures say something about you from the way you keep your house to the way you brush your teeth. Stop thinking you're so above the rest of us that the rest of your life doesn't have anything to do with the things you produce or do. 



> Not that that has anything to do with rape scenes: again, if something's to *supposed* to happen in your story, it *will* happen.



It could just happen off page. Like I said, if I absolutely had to have a rape happen I would write it off page. I don't know why that bothers you so much. Maybe you have some kind of rape fetish. But like Pirate said, I've never seen an on page rape do anything that it couldn't have done off page. And I'm all about brevity.


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## Fujita (Jul 23, 2014)

For all that arguing about what's "supposed" to happen gets you stuck in fun loops of circular reasoning... for most stories, rape isn't something that's "supposed" to happen to the point that excluding it will deal crippling blows to your story... stories that are explicitly about abuse excepted, I suppose. 

You'd sacrifice realism, of course, if you write a scene where several hoodlums corner a young woman while yelling sexual taunts... and then inexplicably nothing happens, but then you don't have to write that scene in the first place. There are a lot of things, interesting things, that can be done with characters that doesn't involve that level of abuse. Alternatively, you can put your characters through a different kind of hell because you don't want to risk writing about something like rape, which comes with a whole lot of general baggage, when you could be writing a more compelling and more meaningful story about other issues.  

There's no shame in doing this. 

By and large, I tend to tolerate rape in books. It's not a deal breaker for me (given that I have a pretty high threshold for disgusting crud), but it generally doesn't endear me to a story.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 23, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I've had a bit of the old sexual violence in my story but I always consider it heavily. I never use it to shock.



The closest I've gotten to this is the whole "Bastard Boyfriend or Girlfriend" (curse you TVTripe!) that acts in a rather rough way but does this for kinkyness and to elicit a wild response from the main lead (those who do it more often than not expect him to answer by roughing them up as well) and this leads to said main lead getting some small bites, some clothing torn and a bit of a dizzy head, but not beyond that. Most of the girls are actually more along the lines of a bastard boyfriend than a bastard girlfriend (once more, fuck you! Fuck you TvTropes!) since they don't act violently, and the only one that does winds up dying brutally.

It's not that I'm uncomfortable with it. The story just doesn't lends itself to it, and I'm not keen on inserting stuff just to appease the public.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 23, 2014)

Fujita said:


> For all that arguing about what's "supposed" to happen gets you stuck in fun loops of circular reasoning... for most stories, rape isn't something that's "supposed" to happen to the point that excluding it will deal crippling blows to your story... stories that are explicitly about abuse excepted, I suppose.
> 
> You'd sacrifice realism, of course, if you write a scene where several hoodlums corner a young woman while yelling sexual taunts... and then inexplicably nothing happens, but then you don't have to write that scene in the first place. There are a lot of things, interesting things, that can be done with characters that doesn't involve that level of abuse. Alternatively, you can put your characters through a different kind of hell because you don't want to risk writing about something like rape, which comes with a whole lot of general baggage, when you could be writing a more compelling and more meaningful story about other issues.
> 
> ...



Lord Foul's Bane has a main character (the main one) rape a woman who tries to be nice to him. I think that turns people away from that work a lot of the time. I don't think I'm so limited in writing about things that I have to come down to doing that because the plot could go no other way. 

And it's funny...all this talk of rape, how many of you specifically meant pretty women being raped? I'm betting none of you meant men. It's just used in such a typical way most of the time.


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## Fujita (Jul 23, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Lord Foul's Bane has a main character (the main one) rape a woman who tries to be nice to him. I think that turns people away from that work a lot of the time. I don't think I'm so limited in writing about things that I have to come down to doing that because the plot could go no other way.
> 
> And it's funny...all this talk of rape, how many of you specifically meant pretty women being raped? I'm betting none of you meant men. It's just used in such a typical way most of the time.



Funny indeed

Because both parts of your post are directly relevant to book I recently read, and one was I going to cite as an example before I decided not to make my post longer than it needed to be 

In _Downbelow Station_, brain-damaged prisoner-of-war Josh Talley gets raped by the battleship _Norway_'s female captain, Signy Mallory. And it's incredibly awkward for me in part because I can't make up my mind whether it's played well or not. I suppose, in some ways, it's free of some of the usual bullshit that comes with male-on-female rape. For one, the actual rape is never actually described to us and isn't played up as any kind of fetish. It also fits perfectly in a story where you have warships fighting a losing war, so hard-pressed for supplies that they raid merchant ships for supplies and people, unflinchingly murdering civilians in the process. It's so bad that the commander of Mallory's fleet is willing to commit mass murder before surrendering his fight. And what with the combined trauma of this and having his brain ripped apart during a previous interrogation, Josh actually opts to have his mind Adjusted (basically having troublesome parts of his memory and possibly personality wiped away or altered). 

I guess what gets uncomfortable is that Mallory herself definitely has some qualities that you can admire. Part of the disconnect, I suppose, is that most everybody in this story ends up being pretty human in the good sense as well as bad, and that's... difficult when most have some sympathetic qualities in a story that's basically about one family (whose implied nepotism in station government is never adequately explored) trying to survive a lot of very bad people flying about with heavily armed warships.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 23, 2014)

Actually, my male protagonist gets raped and by a woman. It ruins him and sort of kicks off a horrible downward spiral that sends the story off in crazy new directions.

Damn you all for pushing me to throw that out there.


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## Risyth (Jul 24, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The thing is that a lot of things happen in the course of the day. I don't write characters that have been shaped by rape. Therefore it's not something that's happened yet. On top of that, I cut away from sex scenes most of the time too, so it's not just a matter of me not liking something being the reasoning behind me doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*When someone starts breaking down another's every sentence, it doesn't make an argument any more reasonable. I'm going to not quote you just so it'll be as annoying as it was for me to look up every minute.

If you don't plan on having it happen, why'd you even bring it up as if it were an option? 

You deny your story being like real life, but do you even know why? Just because your story's a fantasy doesn't mean it can't have structure, without randomness. If you plan to have a rape scene in the story, it shouldn't not happen merely because of your story's genre, if your story has a clear and logical sequence.

"Proses" is the plural of prose and fits the sentence. If you think having good grammar is "pretentious," well, you're just insulting your own abilities as an author and mastery of the language. Either that or I'm getting to you and you're whining off-topic. (It's "S," btw. Capitalized.)

If you're going to quote, do it right and rebut it. Otherwise, it's just a fallacy. Unless your character in question is a god in the story, I don't see how they can consistently shape it on any large scale. Someone deciding not to go on that date is ok, but that shady date is still a subject that needs to be addressed somehow, and the person on the other end is still relevant afterwards--you can't just disregard the entire scene and drop the potential for a bad scenario just because you like a character.

I don't care if you won't do that, but like I said, your reasoning ("...describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try.") sucks, tbqh. Or did you forget your position in the first place? It's starting to seem like you're trying to switch up.

I won't count fanfiction--aren't you seeking compensation for your book? Even if I do, it won't change much: just because something's common in a book doesn't mean it can't be done right and without good reason, again. Your not wanting to write a rape scene because it's been overused is a bad reason, but that's your prerogative--it only gets contagiously bad when you avoid the idea of including such scenes because "...describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try."

I assumed you were referring to real life, since you weren't specific. But I've had to read others' proses in novels up until early this year; and even now, I read the crappy fanfictions and whatever from those who request I do for feedback, or send them to me because. I said I preferred not to do this, not I never did. And guess what: it's debilitating to me. 

And good for you. I don't understand why rape can't be a plot point, though. If you can't make it a plot point by any means, you're *not* a good novelist, and that was my entire point: I was comparing the two situations because they're both almost equally terrible concepts (homicide being worse).


If you insinuate I think I'm above you, thanks for the compliment. You're sense of self-worth needs improving, but if you think I have it, more props for me.

Get over yourself. It's a debate. And you don't know what a trollfic is--or what the concept of trolling is either. Try again before I define it for you.


If I had a "rape fetish," just the thought would be enough for arousal, not having to see the detailed scene. So your insult sucks and makes no sense, again. There's nothing wrong with not describing a rape scene in detail but in passing, but if your reasoning is "describing it out would be too much," you don't care about the quality of your story. Period. A scene written out is almost always better than a scene described in passing, and if you're willing to chance your scene being worse for the sake of characters you aren't using to your fullest potential, you're insinuating a lack of desire to write your story as best as it can be written.*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 24, 2014)

Risyth said:


> When someone starts breaking down another's every sentence, it doesn't make an argument any more reasonable. I'm going to not quote you just so it'll be as annoying as it was for me to look up every minute.



It makes it easier for me to organize what I'm responding to. Even if it didn't, I'm going to keep doing it as a "Fuck you" to you for the earlier comment that I toughen up. 


*Spoiler*: _page space_ 





> If you don't plan on having it happen, why'd you even bring it up as if it were an option?


I didn't bring it up. I responded to the earlier question about the most disturbing thing that I had written. It was part of a reply. Everyone else seems to want to defend their doing it by discussion without acting like a jackass...then you came along and tried to act all high and mighty. 



> You deny your story being like real life, but do you even know why? Just because your story's a fantasy doesn't mean it can't have structure, without randomness. If you plan to have a rape scene in the story, it shouldn't not happen merely because of your story's genre, if your story has a clear and logical sequence.



I didn't say that it couldn't happen because it was fantasy, you're just garbling up what I said. The bottom line is it doesn't happen because I don't want to write it. If you don't like it, tough. My story has structure and I've proven beyond more than a shadow of a doubt that I can write. 



> "Proses" is the plural of prose and fits the sentence. If you think having good grammar is "pretentious," well, you're just insulting your own abilities as an author and mastery of the language. Either that or I'm getting to you and you're whining off-topic. (It's "S," btw. Capitalized.)



Being pretentious (which you're still doing) doesn't make someone a good author. You've yet to show any of your work and you confessed to not reading widely. That's far worse than bad grammar when it comes to writing. 

If I were you I'd put up or shut up. 

Also prose is supposed to have meter and structure, if I'm not mistaken, so I don't write prose. 



> If you're going to quote, do it right and rebut it. Otherwise, it's just a fallacy.


I found it funny. And I'm going to respond how I want to your pretentious tripe. 



> Unless your character in question is a god in the story, I don't see how they can consistently shape it on any large scale. Someone deciding not to go on that date is ok, but that shady date is still a subject that needs to be addressed somehow, and the person on the other end is still relevant afterwards--you can't just disregard the entire scene and drop the potential for a bad scenario just because you like a character.



You don't get it, that's not my reasoning. My reasoning is that I don't think it serves any purpose in the narrative and that most times it doesn't enhance the story. 

The type of character doesn't matter to me, because it still won't happen. But as I mentioned my characters practically are gods. They're immortal, they're super strong and while rape is mentioned when it comes to the Incubus race, it's not going to happen any characters or happen as a plot point anywhere. 

I don't pretend rape doesn't exist, I just don't have a reason to write about it in detail:



> Im Andy. What are we drinking Lissette and Annie?
> 
> I hold up two fingers. Dos rum and cokes. My smile widens.
> 
> ...





> I don't care if you won't do that, but like I said, your reasoning ("...describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try.") sucks, tbqh. Or did you forget your position in the first place? It's starting to seem like you're trying to switch up.



No, after I said that shit me and a friend laughed at it. I do love my characters, but I like not writing rape scenes more. I'm not giving anyone shit about them doing it, I just don't want to do it myself. You seem to just be trying to make a big fuss about it. Even if that was my reason, what do you care? You're ten years younger than me or something and won't even post your writing, why should I care what you think? 

Pirate, Slep, CrazyMTF and MF at least have something to show for what they're doing. Since you've been here you've just pontificated about how awesome you are without anything to show for it. 



> I won't count fanfiction--aren't you seeking compensation for your book? Even if I do, it won't change much: just because something's common in a book doesn't mean it can't be done right and without good reason, again. Your not wanting to write a rape scene because it's been overused is a bad reason, but that's your prerogative--it only gets contagiously bad when you avoid the idea of including such scenes because "...describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try."



I don't write about a lot of things because I don't like them. I'm writing for people out there like me. I know that my methods are working because people reading it are enjoying it. A lot of people don't want to read about rape in detail. 



> I assumed you were referring to real life, since you weren't specific. But I've had to read others' proses in novels up until early this year; and even now, I read the crappy fanfictions and whatever from those who request I do for feedback, or send them to me because. I said I preferred not to do this, not I never did. And guess what: it's debilitating to me.


Then you need to get yourself under control. Even reading bad things helps me know what not to do. It helps me know why something works on a level (like Fifty Shades of Grey, even though I'd rather cut my dick off than read another page of that). If there's something i can learn from a book, even a bad book that sold well, I'm going to use it. 

Am I going to sell out? Well, yeah I'd like to. 



> And good for you. I don't understand why rape can't be a plot point, though. If you can't make it a plot point by any means, you're *not* a good novelist, and that was my entire point: I was comparing the two situations because they're both almost equally terrible concepts (homicide being worse).



One of my big things with my writing was to not necessarily empower women, but to not write the usual rape laden crap that gets churned out and marketed to young adults, especially women (because that's who does the bulk of that reading). Even before that I wasn't about writing rape scenes, but that kind of seals the deal. I work pretty damn hard to make sure neither of my leads loses their agency at any point. Rape is kind of like the ultimate striping of agency and it's been used in fiction to "punish" women who are wayward. Not going to even let it be a point in the plot for those reasons. 

And the mentions of rape when it come to the Incubus race are pretty specific that they rape anyone and usually rape them till they fall apart. 



> If you insinuate I think I'm above you, thanks for the compliment. You're sense of self-worth needs improving, but if you think I have it, more props for me.



My sense of self worth where writing is concerned is stellar. 



> Get over yourself. It's a debate. And you don't know what a trollfic is--or what the concept of trolling is either. Try again before I define it for you.



It doesn't matter what a Trollfic is, it is coming from the person or people writing it and it's a result of their knowledge and their handle on language and the sum of the things they think, even if they're imitating someone else's thoughts. 



> If I had a "rape fetish," just the thought would be enough for arousal, not having to see the detailed scene. So your insult sucks and makes no sense, again. There's nothing wrong with not describing a rape scene in detail but in passing, but if your reasoning is "describing it out would be too much," you don't care about the quality of your story. Period. A scene written out is _almost always_ better than a scene described in passing, and if you're willing to chance your scene being worse for the sake of characters you aren't using to your fullest potential, you're insinuating a lack of desire to write your story as best as it can be written.



I guess I better put back in all the scenes of characters warming up food and write a minute per page that a character sleeps while documenting their dreams in full every time. Everything doesn't have to be written about, it's the author's choice ultimately and I can write around things that I need to. I don't write a lot of things out in detail.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 24, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Actually, my male protagonist gets raped and by a woman. It ruins him and sort of kicks off a horrible downward spiral that sends the story off in crazy new directions.
> 
> Damn you all for pushing me to throw that out there.


If there was a writer here I thought could make rape out to be the horrific thing it is and string it into a plot in an important way, it'd be you or Dr. B.


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## crazymtf (Jul 24, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> I dislike rape in stories because it tends towards cheap shock tactics and harms the story rather than enhance it.
> 
> Either it's done in kind of throw-away, look-how-evil-this-character-is or it's done as a poorly-researched and irritating character story that relies on common misconceptions. Both cheapen the story, the characters and makes everything feel just a lot less substantial.



Disagree. Your characters should be written in the way you believe they should act. If you take away scenes because you don't believe they are right, that's fine. That's the authors right. I just don't believe you should take away a characters action or motive for the sake of saving your viewers a few seconds of reading. 

But hey, that's me.


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## Risyth (Jul 24, 2014)

*...oh boy.*





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It makes it easier for me to organize what I'm responding to. Even if it didn't, I'm going to keep doing it as a "Fuck you" to you for the earlier comment that I toughen up.


*Heh. I get it now. You got your pwetti wyttle feewingz hurt, huh?  

Yeah, so that's the kind of writer you are. One of those little flower buds that bitches and moans when someone's not talking about how they're just "blooming" 24/7. Since you just dialed it up to 11 with that "fuck you," I should go off on you, but I'll hold back.

Also, I don't think you understand how paragraphs are used--unsurprisingly. The ideas have already been organized by me, and with each new paragraph comes a new idea. There's literally no need for this redundancy, and you're not helping your argument any more by doing this, as I've said. 

But, whatever: You're the one who's wasting more time by doing this than I, and for no gain over me. Have at it. 

Chump.



...I'll respect your spoiler, though. Only because we've agreed in the past.*

[SP]*Oh, and I'll make it a little uglier too.  *


I didn't bring it up. I responded to the earlier question about the most disturbing thing that I had written. It was part of a reply. Everyone else seems to want to defend their doing it by discussion without acting like a jackass...then you came along and tried to act all high and mighty.

*I acted how?


"Oh, boohoo! You didn't agree with me! You replied to me!! 


You sweet little flower bud, what have I done. I'm so sorry....


1. It's a public board and I'm allowed to give my dissenting opinion. Deal with it or take a hike, you sniveling little marshmallow.

2. Yes, I replied to you because I specifically disagreed with your post. Is that a crime? Is debating against the rules? Remember, your ass doesn't have to ache just because you're arguing from a different perspective. I said I knew I'd get flak for the remark, which is fine since, frankly, you sounded overly sappy--but then half of your reply was a bunch of irrelevant insults. ("Why are you writing prose with "s" at the end?" Are you serious?) 

I got to you even easier than I thought I ever could've. What a disappointment, and I wasn't even trying to flame. You light up easier than paper, and fold easier still.


3. You did the exact same thing in the "prose" debate you brought up last post. I didn't quote you then; I only gave you my  that you went and quoted because you disagreed. And, yes, you were highly arrogant and patronizing in your replying. [SP]How can you even tell what what constitutes doing well when you're not reading? You're basing all of this off what you think without looking at what's out there. The whole thing is that reading also keeps you from rehasing the same ideas in the same exact ways that others have. 

And it's highly unlikely your style is unique enough to warrant protecting or that your style is going to sell books. Story and characters sell books." (I can get more quotes if you want.)[/SP]But I didn't complain about your being a "jackass," all off-topic-like, as I had an effective argument. On the other hand, you complained in public like a punk over some PM I sent *in reply to your post in the thread* because I didn't want to disrupt the thread. 



Yeah. Forgot about that, didn't you. And saying I have a "rape fetish" out of nowhere doesn't make you a jackass, huh. Lul, your logic is as flawed as your grammatical sense, and I can just imagine your stupid, angry scowl as you typed. But, hey, I'll admit: you made me legitimately LOL more times in this post than I have here in the past year.*


I didn't say that it couldn't happen because it was fantasy, you're just garbling up what I said. The bottom line is it doesn't happen because I don't want to write it. If you don't like it, tough. My story has structure and I've proven beyond more than a shadow of a doubt that I can write. 

*Wait, wait, wait: So you counter my argument--the one that obviously went over your head--with "...they're not like real life...they're fantasy." yet I'm "just garbling up what you said". 

Get outta here with these poor lies.

And, no, that's *not* the bottom line unless you changed your mind a few posts ago. As I've quoted many times now, you said you wouldn't write a rape scene because, and I quote:*



> I don't know if I could ever write a rape scene in anything. Writing that a character had been raped is one thing (something I don't even do), but *describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try.*



*Again: Get the fuck outta here with this backtracking nonsense. I don't have time for weak arguments, and if you can't get it together, you'll know as I wouldn't have responded within a couple of days. You're really not looking worth it right now.*



Being pretentious (which you're still doing) doesn't make someone a good author. You've yet to show any of your work and you confessed to not reading widely. That's far worse than bad grammar when it comes to writing. 

If I were you I'd put up or shut up. 

Also prose is supposed to have meter and structure, if I'm not mistaken, so I don't write prose.

*Wow. This made me laugh more than anything I've read so far. Congratulations. 

So, let me make sure I understand you and your wackass logic:


1. Having correct grammar is pretentious. Being ignorant and refusing to acknowledge it must be humility, then.

2. I'm pretentious because I've typed the plural "proses" instead of the singular "prose" when referring to a plural entity, and that implies I believe I'm a good author.

3. I can't be a good author because I don't read mainstream novels.

4. I said I was a good author.

5. I can't give an opinion if I'm not a good author.


Well, you win the idiot award. You've had it for awhile now, so you probably don't feel any more special, though (who am I kidding: you love being a fool).

For one, I've written over 3000 pages and I'm completely restarting because I can admit I was pretty awful as an author until around late last year. Even now, I'm still improving--and I don't need any others' works and styles to help me improve. All I need is personal criticism and harsh self-analysis. 

Two--no. Bad grammar is worse than not showing your story (mine, I won't, as it's not ready and won't be up to my standards for a long, long time). And just because you read others doesn't mean you can write well. Believing writing in passing is more effective than describing in detail is just one example to the contrary.

Yes. I insulted your ability as an author to shape a scene. I don't have to show anyone anything to prove a point. You're crying and on the defensive, calling me out over not "showing," still off-topic, when I've never asked to see anything of yours, all because I disagreed with you on the importance of a character versus your story.


And, heh: This ain't poetry. Look up prose again because you don't know what it means in this context. No wonder you've been giving me trouble whenever I mention the word....*



I found it funny. And I'm going to respond how I want to your pretentious tripe. 

*Yeah, no. It's not funny. It just shows you can't think on my level--and have a poor sense of humor, with a lame logical fallacy in the form of a purposefully misrepresented quote. Note how you didn't have a proper reply to the substance of that quote, and you still don't. 

Your pathetic excuses can't cover your inability of forming the rebuttal you need, so you're trying to go off-topic yet again, even though you know the real argument  is my first reply to you, addressing your putting your characters over your story. And you know, with this irrelevance, you've gotten yourself into *two* arguments you can't win.*



You don't get it, that's not my reasoning. My reasoning is that I don't think it serves any purpose in the narrative and that most times it doesn't enhance the story. 

The type of character doesn't matter to me, because it still won't happen. But as I mentioned my characters practically are gods. They're immortal, they're super strong and while rape is mentioned when it comes to the Incubus race, it's not going to happen any characters or happen as a plot point anywhere. 

I don't pretend rape doesn't exist, I just don't have a reason to write about it in detail:

*Yeah, no. This is your reasoning:




			I don't know if I could ever write a rape scene in anything. Writing that a character had been raped is one thing (something I don't even do), but describing it out would be too much. I love my characters too much to try.

Click to expand...


Stick to it or admit you've changed stances in the heat of the debate. I'm not falling for that other BS.*



No, after I said that shit me and a friend laughed at it. I do love my characters, but I like not writing rape scenes more. I'm not giving anyone shit about them doing it, I just don't want to do it myself. You seem to just be trying to make a big fuss about it. Even if that was my reason, what do you care? You're ten years younger than me or something and won't even post your writing, why should I care what you think? 

Pirate, Slep, CrazyMTF and MF at least have something to show for what they're doing. Since you've been here you've just pontificated about how awesome you are without anything to show for it. 

*"...oh...

...

...well...I--me...and a friend laughed about that, and...I mean, I love my characters, but I don't like rape more....


...oh, wait...that was your point, since my characters would be involved in it regardless? 


...no, I--I'm saying I wouldn't write it anyway because I just don't care for that action! 


...


...but I should've said that earlier instead of screwing around...? 



...



......um--you're younger! I don't care what you think! Show me what you've written because I care about what you think! If you don't, I won't take your opinion of story versus characters seriously!! 



...I don't care that I'm off-topic!!!!"  


Here's a note, flower bud--besides stay on topic (your "organizing" is useless): Even if I was personally the worst writer on this site, it wouldn't mean I don't know what it takes to make a good story. Two *utterly* different concepts you need to get into your hollow head. It shouldn't be too hard.

And quit it with the red herrings.*[/SP]


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## Risyth (Jul 24, 2014)

[SP]I don't write about a lot of things because I don't like them. I'm writing for people out there like me. I know that my methods are working because people reading it are enjoying it. A lot of people don't want to read about rape in detail.

*You're still off-topic. But notwithstanding this, remember something more: a scene written in detail is almost always stronger than one mentioned in passing (thus, not shown at all). Even if it may be revolting, that's what you want in a rape scene. It's rape. It's not supposed to be glitter and skittles coming out of some girl/guy's anus as they both cheer and drink cocktails afterwards.

If you *can* write a good rape scene, it'll be powerful enough to get your point across better than any brief description after the fact would (which I and many others view as half-assing), and it'd be repugnant enough to make whatever character you want to be disliked be hated even more than you would've expected them to be. 

And not just by your readers: by yourself.


Of course, as you said, it's your story. By all means, stick to the safety lane and keep it mild, flower bud. Rape in detail is only for hardened authors who know what's most important and don't mind putting their personal feelings for their characters aside to get the job done.


By the way, offing a character you love in detail should be worse than raping them in detail.*



Then you need to get yourself under control. Even reading bad things helps me know what not to do. It helps me know why something works on a level (like Fifty Shades of Grey, even though I'd rather cut my dick off than read another page of that). If there's something i can learn from a book, even a bad book that sold well, I'm going to use it. 

Am I going to sell out? Well, yeah I'd like to. 

*Why do I need to get "myself" under control if you're the one still admittedly learning the ropes of good writing from reading bad prose?

The hypocrisy is thick in the air, my friend. I don't have to read bad books to learn what's bad writing...not that recognizing and not liking bad writing implies I need to get "myself" together anyway.

Seriously, you have no idea what you're saying, do you?


Hey, I've never asked how well you think you'd sell, and I don't care. I don't write for sells or reviews.*



One of my big things with my writing was to not necessarily empower women, but to not write the usual rape laden crap that gets churned out and marketed to young adults, especially women (because that's who does the bulk of that reading). Even before that I wasn't about writing rape scenes, but that kind of seals the deal. I work pretty damn hard to make sure neither of my leads loses their agency at any point. Rape is kind of like the ultimate striping of agency and it's been used in fiction to "punish" women who are wayward. Not going to even let it be a point in the plot for those reasons. 

And the mentions of rape when it come to the Incubus race are pretty specific that they rape anyone and usually rape them till they fall apart. *Because rape has to be done to women, and it has to symbolize their status as a whole in any society, let alone your made up one. 

Besides, as I said, if it's destined to happen in your story, the characters shouldn't dissuade you from finalizing their fates at the last minute. That's called being a sappy author.

As for the rest of that:




			Do you write rape to enhance a story? Or do you write it simply because it's what occurs in a scene, as if the story were real life? If the former, you're story's contrived. If you're assuming the former when you judge the concept of having rape in novels, you're missing the point or focusing on the lowest quality proses.
		
Click to expand...


Funny how you harped on about my using the word "proses," yet completely missed the point of the entire paragraph.



...



...actually, it's sad.*



My sense of self worth where writing is concerned is stellar.

*Then stop bitching.*



It doesn't matter what a Trollfic is, it is coming from the person or people writing it and it's a result of their knowledge and their handle on language and the sum of the things they think, even if they're imitating someone else's thoughts. 

*...do you want one more chance? 


Ah, you'll probably fuck it up anyway. 


A trollfic is a fic you don't believe in when it all comes down to it. It's just something you're writing to get a reaction, usually an adverse one, but something about surprise or shock, or even humor, is good as well. As long as it's not what you're really about as an author or even a person. 

ALL you're doing is aiming for a specific reaction. One contrary to the true reaction you'd want. So you're fooling your readers--but it doesn't have to involve anything lame or inciting. The entire premise is fakeness: the entire premise is contrary to that of an autobiography.

A Sailor Moon trollfic is in no way an autobiography, and your terribad logic can't change the definition of an autobiography no matter how hard you try. 

Not only that, but your logic goes against the entire notion of putting yourself in a character's shoes and trying to see through their eyes. I'm even tempted to say you made it up just for this debate, although it doesn't matter since you still haven't replied to the painting comparison.*



I guess I better put back in all the scenes of characters warming up food and write a minute per page that a character sleeps while documenting their dreams in full every time. Everything doesn't have to be written about, it's the author's choice ultimately and I can write around things that I need to. I don't write a lot of things out in detail.*

Sorry. I missed the part where warming up food and dreaming was on the same level of general importance and impact as a rape scene.You're really reaching with these ad hominems, but lemme stop you: I do write this ay, and I don't care what you think of it since it has nothing to do with anything involving rape. 

Not to mention the warming of food is usually on a microscopic level and not all sleeps lead to dreams anyway.*[/SP]


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 24, 2014)

Oh balls, we got drama.


----------



## Nordstrom (Jul 24, 2014)

Can we _steer_ away from the rape theme and into something else?

How do you guys do world building?


----------



## Krory (Jul 24, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Sorry. I missed the part where warming up food and dreaming was on the same level of general importance and impact as a rape scene.



CTK trivializing rape again? Man, thought I was back in the Cafe for a minute.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 25, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Can we _steer_ away from the rape theme and into something else?
> 
> How do you guys do world building?



I write and try to think of my world as if it were real.  I think of all the lands I've created and how they interact. What role they play in the world and so on.


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## Krory (Jul 25, 2014)

That sounds like far too much work.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 25, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Oh balls, we got drama.







Sleipnyr said:


> Can we _steer_ away from the rape theme and into something else?
> 
> How do you guys do world building?



I don't know. I guess I just building it as if I were walking along with the characters, just describing everything as I go along.


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## Tyrael (Jul 25, 2014)

I tend to world build through my characters and through tone really - it's weird that I like things with detailed and interesting settings, but don't tend towards concentrating on them myself.

Weirdly, I tend to think a lot about taxation systems in any fantasy worlds I create.


----------



## Nordstrom (Jul 25, 2014)

krory said:


> CTK trivializing rape again? Man, thought I was back in the Cafe for a minute.



Not if I can help it.



Tyrael said:


> I tend to world build through my characters and through tone really - it's weird that I like things with detailed and interesting settings, but don't tend towards concentrating on them myself.
> 
> Weirdly, I tend to think a lot about taxation systems in any fantasy worlds I create.



Hey, I'm the one who comes up with any excuse to keep my societies from using Capitalism or being democracies.

Also, I just realized something horribly irksome about Namco Bandai and now am getting ROYALLY pissed off.


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## Tyrael (Jul 25, 2014)

Socialist/communist societies still have taxation really. Only doesn't happen when there's either no or voluntary governance.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 25, 2014)

My world works more or less like the real world. I only as little world building as possible and even go as far to use real buildings and places. Sure there are things like magic or creatures that aren't human, but I  fit them into our world by limiting their numbers some. at this point I'm using only creatures that appear in the Bible and related books. Mostly it's Angels, Demons and Dragons.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 25, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Can we _steer_ away from the rape theme and into something else?
> 
> How do you guys do world building?



All sorts of different ways.

Build a world around a character.

Build a world around a concept.

Build a world around a premise.

Build a world around a cool name or word.

I basically take whatever it is, decide a tone to give me some bounderies, and then spin outwards, using genericness as placeholders if needed before I replace it with something more original.  The point where I start really doesn't make a difference to me.  

Another way I like to go is to take one idea or character, and then create it's opposite.  Then for each opposite, I create something complimentary to whatever it is.  Then I create something neutral to each of those.  Then I create something that's blended a blend of each in any given combination.  This way my story has black and white parameters, while also filling everything in between.  That gives a unique and varied world and cast, with built in relationships and stories and interactions to play with.

I've used other methods too.  Chief among them thinking really hard about it and brainstorming ideas until I hit ones that sound fun for me to write.  Or taking an idea or picture in my head and squeezing it for all that it implies or could imply until I get a piece of world out of it.  Then doing the same to that piece of world, and so on.


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## crazymtf (Jul 25, 2014)

I world build I guess through events that shape that world and how the world effects the characters. I'll be honest, I'm probably not the best at it. I'm not big into over-detailed about areas unless it contributes a lot to the atmosphere. I do plan on working on that though, with the more I write.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 25, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> I tend to world build through my characters and through tone really - it's weird that I like things with detailed and interesting settings, but don't tend towards concentrating on them myself.
> 
> Weirdly, I tend to think a lot about taxation systems in any fantasy worlds I create.



of all the considerations I've had taxation has never been one of them. Well it has but I don't think about it often.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 25, 2014)

Well, I tried to write about a post scarcity society. Money has been abolished and everything is free of charge. People get as much money as they want when leaving for whatever reason. The society is labor free and only educates up to middle school. Labor is automated and everything is run just like in Elysium. People are offered the opportunity to start their lives anew over there by a program known as "Restart. Wolf Ticket" modeled after IRL "Birthright" and which doesn't only allows you to resettle, but if you're 23 or younger, you can age back all the way to age 15, have your body and physical appearance altered, your documents and identity rewritten and be adopted by a Sylvanian family. The physical alteration therapy eliminates any diseases or damage to the body and, if adopted, even allows for injection of DNA from a genetic donor to be genetically linked to that family, as if you were a genuine descendant rather than adopted.

That last one is going to play some back story for one of the main characters from the second book onwards.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 26, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> of all the considerations I've had taxation has never been one of them. Well it has but I don't think about it often.



You can't consider taxation without representation.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 26, 2014)

I also need to work on corporations.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 27, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I also need to work on corporations.



Make a world where they're people.  

Coke looked deep into Pepsi's eyes.  "We are colas, but still enemies.  You know in your heart we can never be incorporated, not matter how sweet the merger would be."

"Not even for the synergy?"

Coke shook his head.  "Don't make this harder than it has to be."


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## Nordstrom (Jul 27, 2014)

Screw corporations, my society of Sylvania works with guilds taking over corporations and trade unions alike. Then again, it is a genuine communist state (no Soviet shenanigans).

I'm more worried about their anthem, the song I used to represent them is a modified version of Waltzing Matilda...


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Once a jolly land camped by an adventurer
> Under the shade of a coolibah tree,
> And he sang as he watched and waited till his cauldron boiled:
> "You'll come arising Sylvania, with us."
> ...






Is it nice enough?


----------



## Krory (Jul 27, 2014)

Is the fact that it's a near direct-copy of _Waltzing Matilda_ come up at some point? The butchering of the first is a bit cringe-worthy (which of course directly impacts the third line since you changed the lake into a person...). Is "arising Sylvania" at least some terminology like "waltzing Matilda" is so that the line makes some sort of sense? Though the story is still vastly different and jolting.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 27, 2014)

Basically, it's a country that was once raided and pillaged by an interdimensional Empire that had conquered different realms unchallenged until then. The Sylvanians were the first to stop them and not just that, they triggered the collapse of the Empire most though of as invincible, and they even started a war to free the worlds they oppressed and they voluntarily joined Sylvania. 

I did mention it's a copy of Waltzing Matilda (at some point I thought about just using the Olympic Anthem with different lyrics, or just the Internationale). I'm aware that it's mostly a macekre'd piece. I only use it for whenever I have to write about a formal or armed forces scene (no, I don't write it or mention it resembles Waltzing Matilda) to get inspiration.

The song would narrate three parts; The settlement of the land by runaways from that Empire (basically making this the Mayflower in Space) who migrated in increasing numbers and set up a resistance movement when the Empire found them. They promised to work the land until it grew powerful enough to oppose them.

1st, an adventurer settles in the land and dreams of making it into a powerful civilization to resist Imperial influence.

2nd, another migrant comes to rest at the adventurer's camp. He's a vagrant, and he starts helping once he recovers with the land (digging with his shovel).

3rd, a military force is formed in anticipation of the incoming battle. A proud knight is their heroic figure and would go on to become a messianic figure, much like King Arthur and Jesus, but without the second coming stuff. The Empire had their own figure, which they proclaimed as the strongest warrior known, only for her to be defeated.

4th, the forces rebel as the invasion begins.

5th, changes to the present, implying the war ended and they won, hence the lyrics change slightly.


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## Krory (Jul 28, 2014)

Doesn't really touch most of what I said but okay. Good luck with that.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 28, 2014)

The ripping off? Or the lyrics not matching, because I repeat, this stuff is still unofficial.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 28, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Make a world where they're people.
> 
> Coke looked deep into Pepsi's eyes.  "We are colas, but still enemies.  You know in your heart we can never be incorporated, not matter how sweet the merger would be."
> 
> ...



Hetalia: Corporate Powers.


----------



## Fujita (Jul 28, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Is it nice enough?



You've turned a song about a guy catching somebody's sheep and then killing himself when the authorities show up into standard-fare nationalism, while keeping some of the original lines for some reason. The effect is... jarring.    

Certain lines just don't make any sense at all ("Once a jolly land camped by an adventurer" "Down came a nomad to rest at the adventurer's")


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## Buskuv (Jul 28, 2014)

Can we make an RP about personified carbonated beverages?

I'm so game.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 28, 2014)

Dr. Biscuit Kardashian said:


> Can we make an RP about personified carbonated beverages?
> 
> I'm so game.



Would this be about them uniting to fight the threat of the soda stream?


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## Tyrael (Jul 28, 2014)

I guess I'd have to be Irn Bru, wouldn't I?


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## Nordstrom (Jul 28, 2014)

Fujita said:


> You've turned a song about a guy catching somebody's sheep and then killing himself when the authorities show up into standard-fare nationalism, while keeping some of the original lines for some reason. The effect is... jarring.
> 
> Certain lines just don't make any sense at all ("Once a jolly land camped by an adventurer" "Down came a nomad to rest at the adventurer's")



I choose Waltzing Matilda because it's relatively easy to mold into a nationalistic march anthem akin to the Star Spangled Banner (whose tune came from a drinking song) and it is better than the 1001 anthems that simply use God Save the King or Queen as melody.

The idea was to reflect the discovery of the land by explorer's running away from conquest, making it grow strong enough to oppose said empire and then defeating it, becoming one of the strongest civilizations out there, and the only one that is fair to everyone.

I tried to fix those lines to fit better within the song.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Once a pristine land conquered by an explorer
 Whose coasts were bathed by a turquoise sea,
 And he sang as he took in the beauty of this new realm:
 "You'll come arising my beautiful land."

 Rising Sylvania, rising Sylvania
 You'll come arising Sylvania, with me
 And he sang as he took in the beauty of this new realm:
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."

 Down came a laborer to rest at the explorer's place.
 Once he had rested he started to dig.
 And he sang as he dug his shovel into fertile land:
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."

 Rising Sylvania, rising Sylvania
 You'll come arising Sylvania, with me
 And he sang as he dug that shovel into fertile land:
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."

 Up rode our soldiers, mounted on their thoroughbred.
 Down came our troopers, one, two, three.
 "Who's that proudest swordsman you've got in your regiment?"
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."

 Rising Sylvania, rising Sylvania
 You'll come arising Sylvania, with me
 "Who's that proudest swordsman you've got in your regiment?"
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."

 Up jumped our soldiers and sprang into the highest clouds.
 "You'll never take our land!" we said
 And their bellowing cries of war that made the enemy tremble:
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."

 Rising Sylvania, rising Sylvania
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me",
 And our bellowing cry of war that will make the enemy tremble:
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."

 Rising Sylvania, rising Sylvania
 You'll come arising Sylvania, with me
 And our bellowing cry of war that will make the enemy tremble:
 "You'll come arising Sylvania, with me."


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## Krory (Jul 28, 2014)

You just did more of the same things that were wrong to begin with...


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## Nordstrom (Jul 28, 2014)

Shall I go back to using the Olympic Anthem for inspiration then? (Because I have no idea where I'm getting it wrong).


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## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2014)

Try the Soviet anthem since you want everywhere to be commie.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 28, 2014)

Then I'd be out of explanations. Mostly because if the Soviet Anthem is already in use on Earth, two civilizations using the same anthem seems more jarring


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## Nordstrom (Jul 28, 2014)

Then I'd be out of explanations. Mostly because if the Soviet Anthem is already in use on Earth, two civilizations using the same anthem seems more jarring


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## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Then I'd be out of explanations. Mostly because if the Soviet Anthem is already in use on Earth, two civilizations using the same anthem seems more jarring



I meant base it off the Soviet Anthem or the Chinese Anthem or DPRK's.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 28, 2014)

I already did that, and set it to the Olympic Hymn's song (as I said, using the former melodies leads to a jarring scenario, more jarring than luxury apparel stores in North Korea).

Well, that aside. I have thought about the plausibility of North Korea suddenly becoming far more developed than the South, Palestine outstripping Israel and what to do with France in a world where communism literally returns and decapitates capitalism and more importantly.

Where the fuck do our nifty brands go?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2014)

Yeah, North Korea can't even feed itself without China (Hell, with China for that matter) Unless they go off the reserve and nuke the South into glass. Then they MIGHT be better off just by virtue of still breathing. Which, of course, might not last long since China would probably cut them off for that.


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## Tyrael (Jul 28, 2014)

If China even caught a whiff of someone throwing about nukes so close to it's borders it would put its foot down on that shit so hard.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 28, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Yeah, North Korea can't even feed itself without China (Hell, with China for that matter) Unless they go off the reserve and nuke the South into glass. Then they MIGHT be better off just by virtue of still breathing. Which, of course, might not last long since China would probably cut them off for that.



I think I forgot to mention Russia beheads Kim.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2014)

I keep writing political bits for my world but never get to directly utilize them.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 30, 2014)

Depending on who your characters are, you don't need to focus on them.  So long as they're working behind the scenes, and effecting the world and your character, they can remain unknown.  Similar to people who don't care or keep track of or know about global events and elections still suffer the consequences of their outcomes.

Elsewise, if you really wanted to use them, create characters that want to know and be involved, or events and situations that cause them to take notice.  On the other hand, if they're not working out, don't force them.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 30, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Depending on who your characters are, you don't need to focus on them.  So long as they're working behind the scenes, and effecting the world and your character, they can remain unknown.  Similar to people who don't care or keep track of or know about global events and elections still suffer the consequences of their outcomes.
> 
> Elsewise, if you really wanted to use them, create characters that want to know and be involved, or events and situations that cause them to take notice.  On the other hand, if they're not working out, don't force them.



World War I is an interesting backdrop for this. It's far less of a clear good vs evil situation and there is room for more personal stories  that focus on the war's effect and not the war.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 30, 2014)

Some of my stories take place in the shadows while some actively participate in the public world. I deal a lot with black ops organizations and secret societies.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 30, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Depending on who your characters are, you don't need to focus on them.  So long as they're working behind the scenes, and effecting the world and your character, they can remain unknown.  Similar to people who don't care or keep track of or know about global events and elections still suffer the consequences of their outcomes.
> 
> Elsewise, if you really wanted to use them, create characters that want to know and be involved, or events and situations that cause them to take notice.  On the other hand, if they're not working out, don't force them.



They do affect the backdrop. But not until later. Mostly because we're dealing with a friendly dimensional communist civilization and an isolationist, repressive oligarchic dictatorship that our heroes have to topple in the second book and how their communist ideals affect the repressive realm.



Lord Yu said:


> Some of my stories take place in the shadows while some actively participate in the public world. I deal a lot with black ops organizations and secret societies.



Beyond communism vs banana republic, I do deal a lot with monarchies an culture (well, the obviously fictional, fairy tale version).


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## Lord Yu (Jul 30, 2014)

I deal a lot with monarchies as well, but no communism. I don't think I really have a political environment in my world to produce widespread communism.   I have democracies.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 30, 2014)

Well, given that at the time, people were sceptic about a single ruler and centralized power, it was the onlu way to appease them. Strangely enough, they kept the monarches around, albeit reformed into advisors and cultural and social affairs, with ruling power only in their Kingdom's capital, which would go on to become city states.

Most of the leads are all of noble sort or outright royalty, like the protagonist.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Jul 31, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I deal a lot with monarchies as well, but no communism. I don't think I really have a political environment in my world to produce widespread communism.   I have democracies.



I have an absolute monarchy going on in my second book. 
People don't really like it (characters).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 31, 2014)

Most of my stuff takes place in the United States. The government, other than some made up people here and there, remains unchanged. The type of government also remains unchanged. At one point in the early drafts of the story there was all of this stuff about bureaucratic red tape and the inner workings of the FBI. I really can't be sure if I am going to keep any of that stuff in there at this point.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 31, 2014)

I think the problem I have with government is that I don't really understand how it works, even when I look on Wikipedia. I don't even understand how the military works, so I just do the best I can with my limited knowledge.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 31, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I think the problem I have with government is that I don't really understand how it works, even when I look on Wikipedia. I don't even understand how the military works, so I just do the best I can with my limited knowledge.



Here's the thing, you're not required to even talk about government in your story. Sure, the type of society that your characters live in will affect a lot of the things they do and the people they interact with. For things like that, I would suggest finding accounts of people written about living in that time. Read something written about characters who live in the type of society you're looking to describe. 

If you're really not getting it, it can hurt believably if it comes down to you writing about it. 

But, back to my first point strong influence of government and long winded descriptions of how these things work in your story aren't really required. Like I said earlier, I don't really bother with the stuff too much besides to mention small things here and there and my world is meant to be a slightly altered version of the real world where demons and angels exist and the like.


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## Nordstrom (Jul 31, 2014)

Try dealing with devolved constitutional monarchy under the command of a communist state


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## Buskuv (Jul 31, 2014)

It's a lot better to simply avoid or vaguely touch upon bureaucratic, political or otherwise civil organizations in your novels if you're not certain or knowledgeable enough to do it well than to just make shit up or pretend that you know how things work.

Unless there's a political focus in your novel, I don't think it matters too much.

I know I don't.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 31, 2014)

I feel like the average person is so sick of government's bullshit that they would rather not read a story that focuses too much on it.


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## Malicious Friday (Jul 31, 2014)

_Divergent_  


*Spoiler*: __ 



Or at least that's what I think it's about...


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## Lord Yu (Jul 31, 2014)

I've studied government and military stuff before so I'm fairly aware of how it works.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 31, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> _Divergent_
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'm not sure I know what it is. I think the government divides people up into communities based on what personality aspect they embody.


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 1, 2014)

I never read it myself, but I think you got the jist of it. 


OKay, here's a story. So I'm doing this war with my friend who is also writing a series. We're nearing the end of it and he tries to defeat one of my characters through his own means even after I told him my character is basically almighty, all powerful, etc and there is pretty much nothing in any universe that can beat him. I don't even know how to beat him. He keeps telling me that a) I'm not accepting of new ideas or some shit, b) my character can't do what he does because it breaks the laws of physics, and c) he's just too powerful. 

I honestly think he's just butthurt because I won't let him kill off yet another one of my characters, even after I said he was going to challenge God himself (which leads to his own self-destruction). I'm just like, if I created a character that I don't even know how to beat, after many months of thought, how are you to tell me that you can beat him through some cheap mind tricks? Huh? Because if anything, that's unfair to me and everything I'm working on. It's already been pre-established.


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## crazymtf (Aug 1, 2014)

Ah working with friends. Always fun. I've done it once and it turned out horrible. He wanted no one dead, and everyone lives, happy ever after type shit. I didn't. 

I will be working with two other authors later this year, but I believe the results will be far better. In fact, anyone who wants to join in can. I'm trying to get as many characters/authors as possible.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 1, 2014)

It depends on where the faceoff occurs. If it's on my turf, no invincibility just by being on my setting.

Given the lighter yet edgier stuff I am pinning for, I am better off going solo or with female writers.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2014)

I heard from one of those professional writers that co-writing is the worst.  It can cause conflicts, end friendships, compromise your novel and artistic integrity... and even if you do it, co-written novels aren't viewed as nicely as ones by a single author.

I only tried to co-write once, for a co-writing challenge.  I found the key is collaboration through all steps, and during the writing of each chapter.  You need more careful planning as well, since you can't just let it run around wherever.  You also have to be careful who you agree to work with, and be careful of the stylist changes between sections you write, and the other one writes.

To be honest, it's way more hassle than it's worth.  However, very occasionally, it's a lot of fun.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 1, 2014)

Yeah, our friendship mostly revolves around RPs. I doesn't go well a lot of the time, seeing how he criticizes my characters "not fitting" in the story and we argue about the stupidest shit.



I wanna share this death scene with you guys. I don't like sad, tearful deaths and this happened: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Jackson is the first one to come to the rendezvous point. He finds Ladia’s communicator on the ground, crushed, and the crystal byway floating in the swamp water. Jackson hears Ladia moaning on a felled tree not too far away. He runs over to the nymph and drops to his knees. He looks at her with wide, dinner plate eyes that dart around, unsure of what do. That attack Ladia took blew her chest open and her ribs, lungs, heart and other organs are bare. Her heart slowly beats, the lungs taking in slow breaths.

“Ladia!” 

“Oh yeah… this is really bad,” Ladia say, blood coming out her mouth. “I think I’m about to hit my reset button really soon. Look Jackson—,“ Ladia takes in a deep breath, “—Anetelia, she has Dalmar. Go in and find her… I’ll be fine right here. I have a healing potion…with me—,“ she takes in another deep breath, “it’s in my back pocket.” 

Jackson checks, patting the pocket, “I don’t feel anything. There's nothing there.”

“Shit…” And that’s the last thing Ladia says before her heart stops.


----------



## Krory (Aug 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> OKay, here's a story. So I'm doing this war with my friend who is also writing a series. We're nearing the end of it and he tries to defeat one of my characters through his own means even after I told him my character is basically almighty, all powerful, etc and there is pretty much nothing in any universe that can beat him. I don't even know how to beat him. He keeps telling me that a) I'm not accepting of new ideas or some shit, b) my character can't do what he does because it breaks the laws of physics, and c) he's just too powerful.
> 
> I honestly think he's just butthurt because I won't let him kill off yet another one of my characters, even after I said he was going to challenge God himself (which leads to his own self-destruction). I'm just like, if I created a character that I don't even know how to beat, after many months of thought, how are you to tell me that you can beat him through some cheap mind tricks? Huh? Because if anything, that's unfair to me and everything I'm working on. It's already been pre-established.



Unless he's actually a deity or God, it does just feel cheap. You liken him to one, but _is_ he one? It makes all the difference. Personally to me it would be vastly more interesting to find something that _would_ end a character that you, otherwise, think to be unkillable than just having an unkillable or unbeatable character. The chink in the armor, so to speak. Not even necessarily killing the character but depending on his involvement, knocking him "off course" some how.

And it _does_ sound like you're pretty much not open to anything as it is so this was really just a waste of a response from me.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Yeah, our friendship mostly revolves around RPs. I doesn't go well a lot of the time, seeing how he criticizes my characters "not fitting" in the story and we argue about the stupidest shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because of what you say about how you don't agree on things, maybe it's best if you don't work with this person. I've been working with Tyrael on something (so we can procrastinate as one perfect being). 

I have done this kind of thing before and the process is kind of intimate and not something to be taken lightly. Though, I think the bigger the group of people that are working together the less intimate it becomes. I'm not saying that you won't ever disagree on what to do, but I think that you're going to need to find someone who wants to same goals as you. 

Don't be afraid to voice concerns, but also don't think that you're the only person in this whole thing. You don't need to be trying to push your characters and what you want above the other person's. It would be best if you didn't have invincible characters in story at all. It's kind of boring, it's unreasonable, and it makes it seem like that character could accomplish whatever goal they wanted. 

The exception to that is cosmic horror stories, but those invincible characters aren't totally without vulnerabilities (they can be delayed) and they're also featured as a looming threat and not usually on the page.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 1, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Yeah, our friendship mostly revolves around RPs. I doesn't go well a lot of the time, seeing how he criticizes my characters "not fitting" in the story and we argue about the stupidest shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That scene reads pretty goofy, and it makes me chuckle. What was the tone you were going for? Dinner plate eyes, sounds really silly but the graphic description makes me doubt.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 1, 2014)

Learned long ago that co-writer is more trouble than its worth.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 2, 2014)

I'm too much of a procrastinator to deal with co writing. Also, self centered.

But, then again I've never collaborated with someone really dedicated to working on a project.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 2, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm too much of a procrastinator to deal with co writing. Also, self centered.
> 
> But, then again I've never collaborated with someone really dedicated to working on a project.



Procrastination? You sound like the perfect third party for the project Tyrael and I are working on.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 2, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> That scene reads pretty goofy, and it makes me chuckle. What was the tone you were going for? Dinner plate eyes, sounds really silly but the graphic description makes me doubt.



I didn't want it to be emotional, so I guess, yeah, goofy. 
I always have graphic description. 



~Avant~ said:


> Learned long ago that co-writer is more trouble than its worth.



Wish _I_ realized that sooner (  -___-)


----------



## Buskuv (Aug 2, 2014)

So, where's that LD novel?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 2, 2014)

LD novel???


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 2, 2014)

Huh?


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 2, 2014)

What's an LD novel?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 2, 2014)

Dr. Biscuit Kardashian said:


> So, where's that LD novel?



Didn't it die when Amnesia was still on the forums?


----------



## Buskuv (Aug 2, 2014)

Forget not taking off; it exploded in the hangar.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 2, 2014)

Batman, myself and (I think) DB all did a chapter for it. Not sure what happened afterwards though.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 3, 2014)

Batman needs to come back. He was like the god of this place. He was full of wisdom and a damn good writer. I wonder what he went on to do?


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 3, 2014)

Bigger and better things. 


So, I finally settled my plot. My story finally has a plot! No longer is it a series of character interactions and surreal episodes strung together by wacky circumstance. Things have purpose!


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 3, 2014)

I was able to workout the plot of at least half of my entire series while I was away on toilet paper. I still have it, thankfully. But I dont know why, now that I'm at the point where I can really start writing, I just dont quite feel inspired.


----------



## Krory (Aug 3, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Bigger and better things.
> 
> 
> So, I finally settled my plot. My story finally has a plot! No longer is it a series of character interactions and surreal episodes strung together by wacky circumstance. Things have purpose!



Purpose is overrated - but then again this is coming from the guy that, yet again, scrapped everything to start anew.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 3, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I was able to workout the plot of at least half of my entire series while I was away on toilet paper. I still have it, thankfully. But I dont know why, now that I'm at the point where I can really start writing, I just dont quite feel inspired.



It's because you're not writing your novel on toilet paper.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 3, 2014)

Well that explains it. lol.

Maybe I just need to be in an extremely loud and stressful environment for the writer in me to come out.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 3, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I was able to workout the plot of at least half of my entire series while I was away on toilet paper. I still have it, thankfully. But I dont know why, now that I'm at the point where I can really start writing, I just dont quite feel inspired.



Writing on toilet paper? That's some MLK shit right there.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 3, 2014)

The sound of grunting is the sound of inspiration?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 4, 2014)

Yeah writing paper was hard to come by in the squad bay. But we had an infinite supply of toilet paper. It was really my only outlet to maintain my sanity.

Try the sounds of screams 24/7 as the sound of inspiration. But being a sentry did allow for nice respites of quite and writing time.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 4, 2014)

Was talking to Tyrael about naming characters the other day, because we're trying to come up with a name for this villain (I think we settled on Adia or Aria). We basically have huge issues naming characters. I can never seem to settle on a name, even now I sometimes think that I should change the name of my main character. 

And he said this: 



> "Well, I can't name shit. Like I just have given up and give everything boring white names. One day I'm going to write a novel where everyone is called John."



I just thought that was really funny.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 4, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> I was able to workout the plot of at least half of my entire series while I was away on toilet paper. I still have it, thankfully. But I dont know why, now that I'm at the point where I can really start writing, I just dont quite feel inspired.



Happens all the time. Usually, I need to look at something that can capture the essence of the story. A picture always helps, either imagined or viewed, and backed up by music that'd fit the scene. The books pivotal scene is always a good way to go as they say in Titanic...


*Spoiler*: __ 



ALL AHEAD FULL!






~Avant~ said:


> Well that explains it. lol.
> 
> Maybe I just need to be in an extremely loud and stressful environment for the writer in me to come out.



Eh? Really? I'd thought it'd be the opposite.

Writing with music really helps, specially with imagery that you'd use as scenery for your story.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Writing on toilet paper? That's some MLK shit right there.



Well, I wrote the initial draft of my story's plot in a cellphone.

A 2007 cellphone with a numpad keyboard, that is.



Lord Yu said:


> The sound of grunting is the sound of inspiration?



Sort off, but the only one that can convincingly pull it off is Morgan Freeman, and that's more like "lulling sounds" than "world building sounds".



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Was talking to Tyrael about naming characters the other day, because we're trying to come up with a name for this villain (I think we settled on Adia or Aria). We basically have huge issues naming characters. I can never seem to settle on a name, even now I sometimes think that I should change the name of my main character.
> 
> And he said this:
> 
> ...



I have something of an issue with elegant names, specially British ones. I just can't bear short names that don't vibrate. John, Bob, Maria... They feel... Simple. I like my names unusual, preferably common during the earlier days of the UK or La Francophonie.

Guess I totally am Tyrael's opposite in that regard.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 4, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Was talking to Tyrael about naming characters the other day, because we're trying to come up with a name for this villain (I think we settled on Adia or Aria). We basically have huge issues naming characters. I can never seem to settle on a name, even now I sometimes think that I should change the name of my main character.



Phonics are your friend.  The sheer mileage I've gotten out of just that is astounding.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 4, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Was talking to Tyrael about naming characters the other day, because we're trying to come up with a name for this villain (I think we settled on Adia or Aria). We basically have huge issues naming characters. I can never seem to settle on a name, even now I sometimes think that I should change the name of my main character.
> 
> And he said this:
> 
> ...



That reminds me of my Narcissist run of Final Fantasy, where I named every character after myself.  Every scene became confusing and hilarious.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2014)

I like Yahtzee's idea of making everyone sound like Foghorn Leghorn and naming the main: I say!


----------



## Buskuv (Aug 4, 2014)

Foghorn Leghorn literally makes anything sound awesome.


----------



## Risyth (Aug 4, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Phonics are your friend.  The sheer mileage I've gotten out of just that is astounding.



*Wdym exactly?*


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 4, 2014)

If I'm using a made up language I craft a phonetic scheme and work on it till I have consistency.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 4, 2014)

Once I pick a name I can never seem to stick with it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 4, 2014)

I can never pick a name.  Or name anyone.  

I have several novels plotted where no one is named.  I keep track of them by descriptors and job titles.

I also don't know what they look like.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 5, 2014)

Once more, I'm on the other side. Names stick and I can't get them off.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Aug 5, 2014)

World building I've got fine. I have some good characters. Now just the plot itself needs to be worked on...


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 5, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> Phonics are your friend.  The sheer mileage I've gotten out of just that is astounding.



I do it all the time  



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Once I pick a name I can never seem to stick with it.



Once I pick a name, I can never change it.


----------



## Krory (Aug 5, 2014)

You crazy kids and actually doing things.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 5, 2014)

Can't remember anyone ever asking this before, but does everyone here feel like they're making good use of their five senses in their writing? 

Most of the time people fall back on sight, touch and sound. Taste and smell tend to get sort of neglected. Taste is a little bit easier to ignore because your characters aren't usually going to be putting their mouths all over everything unless they're babies. 

it just seems like a lot of the time I am forgetting that they could smell things. Sometimes I read a smell that's been well described and it's pretty powerful.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 5, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> I do it all the time
> 
> 
> 
> Once I pick a name, I can never change it.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 5, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Can't remember anyone ever asking this before, but does everyone here feel like they're making good use of their five senses in their writing?
> 
> Most of the time people fall back on sight, touch and sound. Taste and smell tend to get sort of neglected. Taste is a little bit easier to ignore because your characters aren't usually going to be putting their mouths all over everything unless they're babies.
> 
> it just seems like a lot of the time I am forgetting that they could smell things. Sometimes I read a smell that's been well described and it's pretty powerful.



Actually, I rely on those two often. Mostly because of the role smell and tastes play. The mouth of giants has characteristic tastes and the main lead is often overwhelmed by it and their smell, as they also have a characteristic smell associated with a flower (for Hill Giants) or mineral (frost and flame giants). Light and dark giants instead make the air feel light and easy to breath (light) or energizing (dark).

In fact, smells are going to cause a lot of fainting spells and syncopes for the main lead, mostly due to sensory overload and the ensuing nerve damage. It's good though. Stuff just feels too dreamlike and pleasant for his mortal body to take... His giant body can, but it still feels overwhelmed in it's own way, it just doesn't throws him into unconsciousness.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 5, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Can't remember anyone ever asking this before, but does everyone here feel like they're making good use of their five senses in their writing?
> 
> Most of the time people fall back on sight, touch and sound. Taste and smell tend to get sort of neglected. Taste is a little bit easier to ignore because your characters aren't usually going to be putting their mouths all over everything unless they're babies.
> 
> it just seems like a lot of the time I am forgetting that they could smell things. Sometimes I read a smell that's been well described and it's pretty powerful.



Sometimes I do a really good job, and remember smell and taste, and have that moment where I feel like I'm so clever for including them as a central theme.  The other times, 99% of them, I completely forget about smell and taste if it's not someone cooking or eating, and now you just reminded me that I'm not clever, and need to start reminding myself to think in those dimensions.  So this is a really good point, and I'm glad you asked about it.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 6, 2014)

Woo! First round of editing is done! Thought of the book somewhere around late 2012, started writing in March 2013, finished in January 2014 and reedited in August 2014. Now it's time to restart editing all over again!! :33 It's that just wonderfully swellerific?!  

It's most likely not going to take as much time editing this again. I have a few more rounds to go before I'm comfortable sending it to an agent. 

Chapters: 35
Word Count: 90,258


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 6, 2014)

Now that you bring that up, I can't help but think that perhaps my chapters may be too short...

Final word count as of June 23, 2014 is 106,104.
Chapters: 49.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 6, 2014)

So my main character uses magic as his main ability. And in my universe you need activation words, like a spell, in order to cast magic. I've decided on making the Dies Irae hymn, his activation words. Now I'm just split on either writing in in latin or in english, for the readers. They both sound good.

English:
Day of wrath and doom impending,
David's word with Sibyl's blending,
Heaven and earth in ashes ending!

Latin:
Dies ir?! Dies illa
Solvet s?clum in favilla:
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Which one should I go with?


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 6, 2014)

Do it in Hebrew.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 6, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I can never pick a name.  Or name anyone.
> 
> I have several novels plotted where no one is named.  I keep track of them by descriptors and job titles.
> 
> I also don't know what they look like.



This is pretty much me.

Do you also have certain chars whose placeholder names keeps changing? That shit can get embarrassing.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Can't remember anyone ever asking this before, but does everyone here feel like they're making good use of their five senses in their writing?
> 
> Most of the time people fall back on sight, touch and sound. Taste and smell tend to get sort of neglected. Taste is a little bit easier to ignore because your characters aren't usually going to be putting their mouths all over everything unless they're babies.
> 
> it just seems like a lot of the time I am forgetting that they could smell things. Sometimes I read a smell that's been well described and it's pretty powerful.



I'm constantly telling myself off for not doing this enough.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 6, 2014)

Doesnt make sense for him to know hebrew storywise


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Now that you bring that up, I can't help but think that perhaps my chapters may be too short...
> 
> Final word count as of June 23, 2014 is 106,104.
> Chapters: 49.



Nah, they're not too short. Have you seen those Goosebump chapters? What about those chapters James Patterson does? Those are short. Shit, there was a chapter in Zombie Butts from Uranus that was only a couple words long, if any.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 6, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Nah, they're not too short. Have you seen those Goosebump chapters? What about those chapters James Patterson does? Those are short. Shit, there was a chapter in Zombie Butts from Uranus that was only a couple words long, if any.



Phew, I'm glad. I thought I had been overdoing them. Then again, I usually extended chapters for as long as a particular situation would last.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 6, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Doesnt make sense for him to know hebrew storywise



I was joking. But, it's something I've always wondered, why does magic use Latin so much in fiction but not Hebrew? Jewish tradition has a rich history of magic. The Romans, not so much, at least from what I'm aware of. 

Sure Latin sounds ominous but Catholicism forbids magic. As for English, I really know fuck all about Germanic tradition beyond the Viking Gods. 

I've gone off on a tangent. Do whatever you want.


----------



## Buskuv (Aug 6, 2014)

Latin is the go to for old languages, because it's dead, but still in  use.

Do it in Gaelic.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 6, 2014)

I made up my own language for spells 

Mostly because I don't trust Google with languages.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 6, 2014)

I thought about making up incantations but I'm too lazy.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 6, 2014)

Well Dies Irae is a catholic hymn. And my main character was raised during the 16th century, which is why he would possibly know the hymn in both Latin and English. Since he's just using the hymn as his keywrds t activate his magic, because as a child the words resonated with him.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 6, 2014)

Incantations would be required for really monumental spells within my story. Magitek means that many are in English. Stronger ones would vary, but I usually use Norwegian, German and even Afrikaans (not Dutch). I try to keep Latin out of my story and use Greek incantations instead.

More on insane stuff. What do you say about the beauty of your characters? Me? My story is chock full of beautiful people (and this is beauty that is so staggering Twilight falls horribly short) and scenery and food (and sensory) porn, so to speak, and even "assailed" regions are rather charming. I take care on describing them minutely while not needing to slow down the pace, usually by describing it as I go.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 6, 2014)

It works in reverse in my story. Lower leveled magician need an incantation in order to bend mana to their use. Stronger magicians can bend mana through power of will alone.

The characters in my story are all mostly attractive, but thats because I mostly hang out with highly attractive people, so I have an IRL bias. I dont really like to be seen with ugly people lol.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 6, 2014)

Most of my magic is through the use of hand signs I made up. (Do not get it confused with Naruto.) More powerful spell and circles need words to activate the magic.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 7, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> It works in reverse in my story. Lower leveled magician need an incantation in order to bend mana to their use. Stronger magicians can bend mana through power of will alone.
> 
> The characters in my story are all mostly attractive, but thats because I mostly hang out with highly attractive people, so I have an IRL bias. I dont really like to be seen with ugly people lol.



My use of magic works much the same. Though it a lot depends on the source of magic and the spell.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 7, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> It works in reverse in my story. Lower leveled magician need an incantation in order to bend mana to their use. Stronger magicians can bend mana through power of will alone.
> 
> The characters in my story are all mostly attractive, but thats because I mostly hang out with highly attractive people, so I have an IRL bias. I dont really like to be seen with ugly people lol.



You're not the only one with that 

That said, most of the powerful spellcasters can do stuff through will alone, but there are certain spells that do need an incantation and weaker spellcasters couldn't even try them out.



Malicious Friday said:


> Most of my magic is through the use of hand signs I made up. (Do not get it confused with Naruto.) More powerful spell and circles need words to activate the magic.



Hand signs are not really used, but certain arm movements are. Crossing your arms strengthens defensive spells if they're being breached, summoning ones are more faster if your summoning arm is outstretched towards the summoning circle and offensive spells usually work best with punches, spinning kicks and enhancing spells enhance with tracing arcs to the sides.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 7, 2014)

Quick question, how old is everyone?


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 7, 2014)

Me? Or characters?

My age is in my profile.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 7, 2014)

IRL I'm 24


----------



## Buskuv (Aug 7, 2014)

~Avant~ said:


> Well Dies Irae is a catholic hymn. And my main character was raised during the 16th century, which is why he would possibly know the hymn in both Latin and English. Since he's just using the hymn as his keywrds t activate his magic, because as a child the words resonated with him.



If he was born in the 16th century, I'd stick with Latin because the English version would be anachronistic.

I'm turning 26 in November.


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 7, 2014)

Very well then. Thanks.

Dont feel too old, my wife will be 30 in december.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 7, 2014)

Does anyone have a time constraint or an age constraint on their publishing? Like if I don't get this done by the time I'm X it's time to switch gears or batten down and go at it full force or quit or something?


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 7, 2014)

Nah, putting that kind of pressure on myself would make it feel like a chore.


----------



## Buskuv (Aug 7, 2014)

Nope;

I already have a self-defeating attitude as it is, I don't need any arbitrary goals with those kind of punishments.  Goals are fine, but ones where if you fail you give up entirely seem dangerous.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 7, 2014)

Not me either. I did away with those when I realized they only made my writing more erratic.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 7, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Does anyone have a time constraint or an age constraint on their publishing? Like if I don't get this done by the time I'm X it's time to switch gears or batten down and go at it full force or quit or something?



I figured I would have a book written around my first year of college.

That didn't work, and I'm not longer young enough for anything I do to be impressive, so it doesn't even matter now.  Just, whenever I do anything is fine.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 7, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Quick question, how old is everyone?



I'm 18. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Does anyone have a time constraint or an age constraint on their publishing? Like if I don't get this done by the time I'm X it's time to switch gears or batten down and go at it full force or quit or something?



No, that would be way too much of a hassle. I've tried doing that once and it didn't work out. Went past the due date.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 7, 2014)

I'm going to leave this here.

These rants are interesting and thought provoking, and cover just about everything fantasy related.  It's become harder to find the complete collections recently.


----------



## Malicious Friday (Aug 7, 2014)

I bookmarked it. He makes some good points about stuff though. But him on describing protagonists, yeah no, I don't agree.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 8, 2014)

If anyone here is planning to work for a larger publishing firm you're going to end up with deadlines there too. Maybe not ones that say you have to quit writing, but they're going to be a common thing.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 8, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> If anyone here is planning to work for a larger publishing firm you're going to end up with deadlines there too. Maybe not ones that say you have to quit writing, but they're going to be a common thing.



The problem is not deadlines, but making it seem like a chore (you won't get paid for it). Once money's on the table, I can pull of up to 60,000+ words per day and of very high quality (mind you, it's a drain that means I spend two days in bed doing nothing afterwards).

Also, I've planned ahead by writing the whole arc before deals. That way, I can remove all deadlines and concentrate on the next arc. That can be settled after I'm done with it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2014)

So, I've been trying to reconcile the fact that my protagonists are from Earth but I don't have much to do with that. The Male Protag's mother has a much stronger connection to Earth and that has a greater impact on her story, but neither the of the two leads have a strong attachment to Earth. I can't just make them from Alrusavera for a number of hard to describe reasons.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 9, 2014)

^ Don't force them to. My characters themselves are all born on Earth, but only the first book happens on Earth. Everything else moves to Sylvania and the multiverse until the arc ends and they return to Moscow (which is pretty much Earth's capital a la NYC IOTL) before I go through the spin off miniarc and then back to them post time skip.

If your characters are aliens then you shouldn't associate them with Earth, unless it had something to do with their ideals.


----------



## Risyth (Aug 9, 2014)

*Just came from this party with my co's...so nice lol 


Anyone else feel they write/bs better when they're a little tipsy?*


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 9, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ^ Don't force them to. My characters themselves are all born on Earth, but only the first book happens on Earth. Everything else moves to Sylvania and the multiverse until the arc ends and they return to Moscow (which is pretty much Earth's capital a la NYC IOTL) before I go through the spin off miniarc and then back to them post time skip.
> 
> If your characters are aliens then you shouldn't associate them with Earth, unless it had something to do with their ideals.



They were both born on Earth.  They are alien to the story's setting.


----------



## Nordstrom (Aug 10, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *Just came from this party with my co's...so nice lol
> 
> 
> Anyone else feel they write/bs better when they're a little tipsy?*



Yup, though that's normal, or so I think. Also, you write better with a messy room 



Lord Yu said:


> They were both born on Earth.  They are alien to the story's setting.



Then it'd depend on their personalities and how much they've been influenced by our culture.

I'm still trying to get it over my head about how I could make Commonwealth characters sound like pompous Britons


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 11, 2014)

Does anyone consider using structural guidelines - like the hero's journey - in plotting out a novel to be low integrity, cheap and derivative storytelling? And if so, why?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 11, 2014)

Tyrael said:


> Does anyone consider using structural guidelines - like the hero's journey - in plotting out a novel to be low integrity, cheap and derivative storytelling? And if so, why?



I think that the hero's journey is so much a part of our cultures that it tends to seep into the things we're doing without us knowing, even if it's to a small degree. I don't think think that I've ever used it as a guideline, but I'm aware of it and how some things in my story line up with it even though I didn't plan them that way.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 11, 2014)

The last time I tried to deliberately use the hero's journey I really flew off the handle. My brain just doesn't work in that guideline.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2014)

Pretty much every story is some variation of man goes on a journey, or boy meets girl.  Sometimes both.

But as for using strict guidelines, I really don't work well with them, or consciously channel them.  However, it doesn't mean I don't use them.  It does feel like write by number if you sit down and write according to those patterns, and I often find their product to be, well, obviously structured.  At the very least, I don't like to see the scaffolding.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 12, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Pretty much every story is some variation of man goes on a journey, or boy meets girl.  Sometimes both.
> 
> But as for using strict guidelines, I really don't work well with them, or consciously channel them.  However, it doesn't mean I don't use them.  It does feel like write by number if you sit down and write according to those patterns, and I often find their product to be, well, obviously structured.  At the very least, I don't like to see the scaffolding.



Or girl meets boy...

Given the heavy RPG esque theme the story is following, averting that cycle nearly impossible, for it is pretty much the only outflow I have.

I omit some steps every now and then, but the cycle, nonetheless, appears...


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2014)

Girl meets boy is just a variation.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 12, 2014)

I know, but it's so rare to hear that one it makes my head spin just to think about why people haven't though about such things even once.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2014)

Nearly every romance novel is girl meets boy.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 12, 2014)

But it doesn't gets mentioned that way. The phrase is always "boy meets girl" and rarely spelled otherwise.


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 12, 2014)

I don't even know what that guideline is, so I don't even know if I use it or night.


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## Risyth (Aug 13, 2014)

Initially, but it's only circumstantial, and I _heavily_ subvert it.


Anyhow, I've a pretty big problem/decision I'm facing. My chapters in MS Word tend to be dozens of pages long now that I'm editing them--dozens as in 30+ minimum, but regularly over 100. I go by this notion that it doesn't matter how daunting it seems, if the intro's good and prepares you to have a vested interest in the subsequent chapters, it's no problem. You don't have to read the chapters in one sitting, especially when you're writing an extremely long story that's not designed for a single sitting, and having multiple chapters is just another way of having the same amount of pages in your story. 

But people who've read my stuff before have been saying they wouldn't want to now if it's this long (my last was a little over 300 pages). I'm not one to really care on a person-to-person level, but is it just a matter of preference? Or should I try to section things more? Right now, I end a chapter exactly where I feel a chapter should end. I can do it more frequently, but I feel that just breaks the immersion, sometimes the pacing as well--and that a long story is better complimented with long sections where breaks are more so arbitrary than "rest here". I don't get how people could get burnt out reading my chapters unless they do it all at once.


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 14, 2014)

Have you guys gotten mindgasms because of something great and intense you wanted to do in your stories? 

Because I have and I love them.  

Gonna leave a huge ass cliffhanger at the end of one of my books: "And he met a man named Steven." That's it, right there. People'll be like, "Who the fuck is Steven?" and "Where the fuck is the third book?!" And guess what. There's isn't a third book  That's the cliffhanger leading to the second book of a whole 'nother series.


I don't think I'm going to release my books in chronological order of the timeline ( .____.) Some of them are more developed than others.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 14, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Initially, but it's only circumstantial, and I _heavily_ subvert it.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, I've a pretty big problem/decision I'm facing. My chapters in MS Word tend to be dozens of pages long now that I'm editing them--dozens as in 30+ minimum, but regularly over 100. I go by this notion that it doesn't matter how daunting it seems, if the intro's good and prepares you to have a vested interest in the subsequent chapters, it's no problem. You don't have to read the chapters in one sitting, especially when you're writing an extremely long story that's not designed for a single sitting, and having multiple chapters is just another way of having the same amount of pages in your story.
> ...



I would segment them more. I did my best to make sure my chapters are short enough you'll be able to read at least one per sitting. I rechecked and InCopy gives about 17 pages per chapter for a 31 chapter, 517 pages book. So about half of your minimum. Then again, your story could belong to a different genre. I'm writing male-oriented, fantasy-romance, JRPG styled YA with military magitek hints, so it could be that your book is written according to different rules, such as those of say, Tolkien (I will approach that, but gradually, and right now, it's more along the lines of a large scale Narnia). So I can't say for sure unless you give us a genre.



Malicious Friday said:


> Have you guys gotten mindgasms because of something great and intense you wanted to do in your stories?
> 
> Because I have and I love them.
> 
> ...



I haven't had them since I don't know what a mindgasm is. I've been swayed by Russophilia and Russian patriotic fervor often, but that's another story 

I have had ideas that suddenly appear and I use off the bat. If not now, for the sequel.

Also, I did that already. Book 3 ends with an epilogue that takes us away from the battlefield where the "final battle" has ended and everyone is fine and recovering, ending with two characters restoring a war torn planet with a "world healing wave" (f*** you ***ropes!!!) and everyone looks on as the planet is filled with grasslands and rolling plains that used to be desert, only for us to go back to... Wait, is it Earth? Oh wait, yeah, it is... But we're no longer in Moscow or Madrid or Tokyo! We're in... Is this what remains of America? Then a young girl in a small countryside house discovers something in a treasure chest in her house's attic one morning when her parents aren't home and, what... It starts glowing?! Whoa... Wait... What the heck... What the hell is this?!

Girls words

"Wow"

*Book ends*

Then people expect us to pick up on what happened to Aston LLC, yet we don't go there!  We pick up were the girl left off, and a whole new story starts for another three books in the same verse! It expands concepts and stuff we touched upon in the first three but never explored in favor of what influenced the current plot.

Those three also have a novella between the second and third  And that novella has a subplot that gets expanded afterwards 

But after the novella and third book, we go back to our original programming. Time skip of course. Young boys and girls get tighter and curvier, existing character get even skimpier power ups and our beloved hero is now prettier, stronger and flashier than he was before the year passed and he turned 18... Yes 18... And now he faces new problems that will connect him with the heroine of the subplot and the heroine of the subplot's novella subplot, which will get explored in a novella of this plot... No, I'm not joking, I'm serious.

That's the part where development of the "writer Gods' playground" intensifies, and I get ready to do something no young adult writer has ever done before, and offer my verse as a setting for writers... Most of my setting is released into the public domain, with only a contribution for those who wish to donate to the project for further expansion of the verse and it's rules and civilizations and whatnot.


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## Risyth (Aug 15, 2014)

*I see. And though I might've wanted to deny it, deep down, I know you're right regardless of the genre. The story runs regardless of the chapters. And regardless of the lack of chapters--it runs until the end regardless. And I can't control what the reader does or how they approach the ends of some chapters and beginnings of others.

I'm gonna try to keep my chapters under 20 pages unless there's a MAJOR need for continuation. It'll not only make for a more accessible read, but for more accessible editing. I'm sure I can find some sections were a cutoff will fit.*


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## Nordstrom (Aug 15, 2014)

Just remember that sometimes you can trade off pages with another Chapter. If you have an empty chapter, a move may do wonders for your writing and narrative experience.


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## Risyth (Aug 15, 2014)

*I'm not sure I follow, sorry.*


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## Nordstrom (Aug 16, 2014)

Sometimes an overly long chapter is followed by a shorter one. You can balance the amount by attempting to move a part of a chapter to the next one if the narrative allows it.


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## Risyth (Aug 16, 2014)

*I'll keep that in mind, since I'm redoing everything from the start. 

What would you consider overly-long, though?*


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## Nordstrom (Aug 16, 2014)

Right beyond 30 unless you're writing an epic. Also, I've heard of in-chapter respites that can be used to signal to the reader that he may stop there. But those aren't to be overused, or they'll make the narrative feel jagged.


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## Risyth (Aug 16, 2014)

I'll never use reader-directions in my writing. Ever. lol

I guess you can call it an epic, since I've just barely gotten past the beginning and haven't introduced even half of my characters...it's strenuous sometimes. 

I think I'll keep 20 as the usual max but slip into 30 over odd chapter, then use that tactic. Seems like a good change of pace.

Thanks.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 16, 2014)

Sounds good. And not a problem!


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## Lord Yu (Aug 16, 2014)

I almost never count chapters.


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## Risyth (Aug 16, 2014)

*Well, it's not about chapters per se but the amount of pages in between them...unless I misunderstood.*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 16, 2014)

I'm pretty excited. This new place I am moving into might mean I have space to have a small desk area dedicated to writing and away from most of the other distractions in the house.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 16, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *Well, it's not about chapters per se but the amount of pages in between them...unless I misunderstood.*



When I first started out I would have really really long chapters like twenty something pages a chapter which in print would be over 40. Then I stepped down to ten with the next draft. It doesn't really matter your chapter ends when it's run its course.


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 16, 2014)

Actually, I don't think I'm gonna publish soon. I've decided to write a few of my books first and then send them to literary agents.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 16, 2014)

I really want to crank something out as soon as possible while keeping it to a standard of quality that I can respect.


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## Risyth (Aug 17, 2014)

Lord Yu said:


> When I first started out I would have really really long chapters like twenty something pages a chapter which in print would be over 40. Then I stepped down to ten with the next draft. It doesn't really matter your chapter ends when it's run its course.



*Thing is, I had that stance and was averaging 80+ pages a chapter and heading towards 100+. My last two chapters were 300/195 pages. And the 300 one I forced myself to halve even though I didn't want to end it there--the rest has yet to be written. 

I wouldn't personally mind reading that if the narrative were good, but many people are daunted by this. They're the types to get to a new chapter and flip ahead to see where the next one is. I'll also admit that 100+ chapters are hard to edit since it's like reading a book vs a scene or two, just for some context.*


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## Lord Yu (Aug 17, 2014)

I think each chapter should have tightly contained theme. You take a subject in the story, explore it in depth but not too much depth and move on.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 17, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I really want to crank something out as soon as possible while keeping it to a standard of quality that I can respect.



This is all I ever really want out of myself.  The power to do that consistently and on demand.

Wait, that's not true at all, now that I think about it.  But I understand the feeling.


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 17, 2014)

When I'm finished editing "The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World" would any like to read it?


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## Nordstrom (Aug 17, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *Thing is, I had that stance and was averaging 80+ pages a chapter and heading towards 100+. My last two chapters were 300/195 pages. And the 300 one I forced myself to halve even though I didn't want to end it there--the rest has yet to be written.
> 
> I wouldn't personally mind reading that if the narrative were good, but many people are daunted by this. They're the types to get to a new chapter and flip ahead to see where the next one is. I'll also admit that 100+ chapters are hard to edit since it's like reading a book vs a scene or two, just for some context.*



What's your story's word count Risyth?



Malicious Friday said:


> When I'm finished editing "The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World" would any like to read it?



Sure, count me in!


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## Risyth (Aug 17, 2014)

*It's hard to give a precise word count since I'm actively revising and chapters are getting smaller (sort of).

Before my revisions, I had: 259459 words

Now I'm at ~256491, but I'm in the middle of making changes to my first chapter and third chapter, before moving down the line, so that number's very flimsy. Like, the first was at 5713; now it's 1749. My second went up a very hundred words, but I've yet to split it. *


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## crazymtf (Aug 17, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> When I'm finished editing "The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World" would any like to read it?



Yes me! 

Been busy with the wedding and Honeymoon but once I get back I'm going full force back into writing. I want to finish up my trilogy short stories and finally create the full blown novel in the same universe. Have "Those Devils" and "0-9" written. Next up is "The Toys" which will wrap it up. Then the full novel "Experiment 02"  Never a dull day for writing!


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## Nordstrom (Aug 17, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *It's hard to give a precise word count since I'm actively revising and chapters are getting smaller (sort of).
> 
> Before my revisions, I had: 259459 words
> 
> Now I'm at ~256491, but I'm in the middle of making changes to my first chapter and third chapter, before moving down the line, so that number's very flimsy. Like, the first was at 5713; now it's 1749. My second went up a very hundred words, but I've yet to split it. *



Beyond 120,000+ words, I'd consider splitting it up. Unless your aim is rather niche. It's just books so long are often an smaller marketplace.


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## Risyth (Aug 17, 2014)

*I don't plan on publishing this work anyway, lucky for me; however, it's divvied among 16 chapters.

Just curious: Why'd you choose 120,000 words as the marker?*


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 17, 2014)

The second round of editing is easy but also a bitch to do. Fuuuuuuuccckkkkk.... And I have classes this Thursday WITH band...I don't see how I'm going to finish when I want to finish this.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 17, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *I don't plan on publishing this work anyway, lucky for me; however, it's divvied among 16 chapters.
> 
> Just curious: Why'd you choose 120,000 words as the marker?*



Most YA books nowadays don't go beyond the 100,000 word marker for their first story. I'm pushing it, because most authors usually want less than that. But I have to transfer a chapter over to the second story (which was the original epilogue). The word count should be about 119,000 (currently 123,000), a good length for the Shattered Skies arc. It's last story, book 3, should have around 195,000 words.

For comparison, the one book which is famous for being too long to read is WAR AND PEACE - 561,304 words long!

Half that length, while not too long, is rather tedious for a single book, specially if you follow a growth rate like I do.

Ironically, I already clocked estimates for future stories.

Arc 1
B1: 119,000W
B2: 149,000W
B3: 195,000W

Sub arc 1
ER: 118,000W
ER2:131,000W
AR1: 67,811W
ER3: 198,000W

Arc 2

F1: 200,000 (Benchmark limit)
F2: Less than 200,000
And so on...

HP: Deathly Hallows is unusually long at 198,000 words. But it's the last book of a series beyond 5 books. If you are writing the finale, you may use more space than usual, but more often than not, you should start out slowly, albeit powerfully. Use the first book to lay the world before the eyes of the reader, establish the main characters and center the plot on them and how the world reacts to this new, wild card coming into the main character's lives and how the protagonist turns things around just for having taken a train, plane, cable car, ship, bus, car, hovercraft, spaceship or whatever you want them to use for transport to reach a certain place where people of his or her kind aren't welcome... At least not as themselves... Or in whatever state they currently are... without triggering major changes with their presence.



Malicious Friday said:


> The second round of editing is easy but also a bitch to do. Fuuuuuuuccckkkkk.... And I have classes this Thursday WITH band...I don't see how I'm going to finish when I want to finish this.



Annoying... Horribly annoying. Been there, and sometimes you just feel like skipping...

If you can afford to do it once, do it!


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 17, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> HP: Deathly Hallows is unusually long at 198,000 words. But it's the last book of a series beyond 5 books. If you are writing the finale, you may use more space than usual, but more often than not, you should start out slowly, albeit powerfully. Use the first book to lay the world before the eyes of the reader, establish the main characters and center the plot on them and how the world reacts to this new, wild card coming into the main character's lives and how the protagonist turns things around just for having taken a train, plane, cable car, ship, bus, car, hovercraft, spaceship or whatever you want them to use for transport to reach a certain place where people of his or her kind aren't welcome... At least not as themselves... Or in whatever state they currently are... without triggering major changes with their presence.



Order of the Phoenix was 215,000+ words, or so I've read.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 18, 2014)

Publishers are reluctant to take anything over 110,000 - 120,000 words from first time authors of YA and most kinds of science fiction. If you look around there will be some examples that aren't like that. But it's more common that they'll be accepted. 

Agents and editors will tell you to cut that down some. 

I'm shooting for no more than 80K and that's more than I meant to do. 

@MF, they locked your thread for no damn reason in the Cafe.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 18, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> Order of the Phoenix was 215,000+ words, or so I've read.



Oh crap, I missed that one. It really didn't pass through my head. Probably because it was so unusual it just didn't occurred to me.

And yes, that's rather unusual.


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## Risyth (Aug 18, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> The second round of editing is easy but also a bitch to do. Fuuuuuuuccckkkkk.... And I have classes this Thursday WITH band...I don't see how I'm going to finish when I want to finish this.



*Do you not have Summer Vacation? *



Sleipnyr said:


> Most YA books nowadays don't go beyond the 100,000 word marker for their first story. I'm pushing it, because most authors usually want less than that. But I have to transfer a chapter over to the second story (which was the original epilogue). The word count should be about 119,000 (currently 123,000), a good length for the Shattered Skies arc. It's last story, book 3, should have around 195,000 words.
> 
> For comparison, the one book which is famous for being too long to read is WAR AND PEACE - 561,304 words long!
> 
> ...



*Well, I only plan on writing one book for sure. It's just going to be very, very long. Thing is, since I'm not publishing, the norm shouldn't really affect things, right? Or does it follow the same premise as sectioning chapters: reader intimidation? It's hard enough for me to go through with cutting these chapters up.... 

Since the stories you put are built on each other, though, it makes me feel a little better. Were it just one story at ~120,000 words...


--Btw, why do you split the subarcs? How do you goo about writing them? As if they're separate novels?*


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## Nordstrom (Aug 18, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *Do you not have Summer Vacation? *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you aren't planning on getting published, then it's alright I guess. But who are reading it?

Also, while it may intimidate some readers, the point was to either publish it or make it more manageable, but if you know what you're doing with it, then there's nothing to worry about.

The sub arc you see literally changes the main character and lead setting. We leave the main character of the first three books to celebrate victory and greet the dawn with his friends, allies and troops as they emerge victorious from the final battle and they cheer on as a new day approaches...

Cut to a place that hasn't been touched upon just yet... The United States of America... Or what remains of it... Cue new characters and an all new story set in an different setting but same time and world. We literally leave an alien planet to return to Earth and know what happened to America, which isn't touched upon until then, and deepen stuff touched upon but not explored yet, such as the royal families, the trials of dragoons, blood of beastmasters, the Carte Blanche dragons, marking Valkyries, the role of Chevalier and their charge (A Valkyrie is a dude surrounded by girl knights to protect him and enforce his command, a Chevalier is the opposite, a exceptionally powerful knight, who attempts to get in the good graces of one of a group of Valkyries to become a knight to them. A position usually reserved for very rich and powerful, non noble women who show Advanced Affinity)... You get the drill... So it's less a separate novel, and more of a spin off... They will all meet as soon as arc 2 (or arc 3 if you counted the sub arc) resumes, being a timeskip of arc 1.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 18, 2014)

Malicious Friday said:


> When I'm finished editing "The Four Worlds: A Beautiful World" would any like to read it?



Sure.  I was reading something of yours, I think.  I can't promise I'll finish it though.


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## Nordstrom (Aug 18, 2014)

Weird. Shouldn't we have closed by now?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 18, 2014)

It usually drags on a few pages.


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## Reznor (Aug 18, 2014)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


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