# Tobirama vs Kakashi



## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

​
*Location:* Valley of the End
*Distance:* 20 meters
*Knowledge:* Reputation. Kakashi knows that Tobirama was the inventor of Hiraishin. Tobirama knows that Kakashi has Mangekyo Sharingan. 
*Mindset:* IC 
*Restrictions:* Edo Tensei and Kamui


*Bonus Scenario:* No Restrictions. Tobirama has one Edo Tensei prepared - Asuma(no trench knives, weakened).


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

Tobirama is clearly in a different league. He can counter Kamui, as seen when Minato escaped it with Hiraishin and he outmatches him in almost everything else.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> He can counter Kamui, as seen when Minato escaped it with Hiraishin .


 You mean that someone faster than Tobirama escaped slower application of Kamui? Kamui is restricted in the main scenario anyways.


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## Kai (Aug 2, 2013)

Kakashi won't be able to react reflexively up to par against Tobirama's S/T without Kamui.

Tobirama makes enough KB's just so they can play with Kakashi's KB's on the sidelines.

Tobirama mid difficulty.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 2, 2013)

Not seeing a valid route for Tobirama defeating Kakashi. He doesn't have any knowledge on his arsenal. 

I laugh at the notion of paper tag explosives killing Kakashi even without Kamui.

He has no ranged weapons applied with FTG, so he's limited to tagging the surface of the battlefield. The man doesn't even have a weapon. Kakashi's shunshin speed is faster, Raikiri rips through his armor and kills him upon contact in close quarters without him even knowing it and his Raiton Bunsins casually electrocute without warning. Assuming this battle starts on the water, Tobirama is electrocuted easier with Raiton Wolf, Raiton Bunshins and Raiton weapons, and his FTG is washed away naturally. 

Kakashi systemically broke Obito down, a man who had full knowledge on him. Unarmed mortal Tobirama with reputation knowledge is truly a walk in the park.


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## ShadowReaper (Aug 2, 2013)

alex payne said:


> You mean that someone faster than Tobirama escaped slower application of Kamui? Kamui is restricted in the main scenario anyways.



And Tobirama sneaked up behind Obito, who has good sensory abilities and he redirected Obito's dark orb back to him, before it could explode. Kakashi without Kamui won't pose much thread and he won't be able to react to his ST and most likely loses his head.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> And Tobirama sneaked up behind Obito, who has good sensory abilities and he redirected Obito's dark orb back to him, before it could explode. Kakashi without Kamui won't pose much thread and he won't be able to react to his ST and most likely loses his head.


Kakashi with Hiraishin would perform just as well in Tobirama's position against Obito. It's the nature of the jutsu. In physical speed both Kakashi and Tobirama are quite comparable(I'd argue that Kakashi's 3-tomoe Sharingan gives him a slight edge).

For Tobirama to Hiraishin-blitz Kakashi he would need to tag him or force Kakashi to move near pre-tagged area. Kakashi has knowledge on Hiraishin, high-end speed and intelligence. Fight wouldn't be as simple as you say.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

In the first scenario:

Tobirama's sensing, Shunshin, and KB should keep him safe from Kakashi's attacks until he is able to place some FTG Markers. From there Kakashi can't hit Tobirama and it's only a matter of time before Tobirama gets a FTG Marker or KB close enough to Kakashi to FTG blitz him and finish him off with Hiraishingiri. Tobirama wins with low-mid difficulty.

In the second scenario:

I don't really know what a weakened Asuma entails. But anyway pretty much the same deal as the first scenario Tobirama should survive long to place some FTG markers and than Kakashi is not going to be able to hit him. Even with Kamui Tobirama will sense Kakashi gathering chakra in his eye to use Kamui and than evade with FTG. Again it's only a matter of time before Tobirama gets a seal near Kakashi and ends this with a Hiraishingiri blitz. Even if Kakashi can teleport himself away in time to avoid the blitz with Kamui, that eats up one of his few Kamui uses and after 4 he'll run out of steam and be blitz'd by someone of Tobirama's speed. 

So despite the confusing Edo Tensei rules, it doesn't really matter because Edo Tensei is not required to win here, Mid-high difficulty.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

I wonder why Obito's(strongest living being currently, strongest biju inside, Rinnegan+Sharingan, closest to Rikkudo Sennin) sensing feats are automatically granted to every known sensor. Despite the feat being unique.

By the way - Tobirama can't place tags on the water(didn't show it at least). Giving Kakashi Hiraishin-free area.


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## Reznor (Aug 2, 2013)

alex payne said:


> By the way - Tobirama can't place tags on the water(didn't show it at least). Giving Kakashi Hiraishin-free area.


But unfortunately, a Suiton-rich area.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2013)

Kamui GG


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

Reznor said:


> But unfortunately, a Suiton-rich area.


Why unfortunately? Part 1 hype of Suiton Overlord is the same hype as "God of Shinobi" Sarutobi. Part 2 changed the owner of the title while giving Tobirama completely different set of abilities. ANBU that watched the fight were still shocked by Tobirama's Suitons. Implying that those showings are matching the hype. And Kakashi showed comparable sourceless Suitons and superior with-a-source Suiton. Suiton Overlord is the same as 1000+ copied Jutsu imo.

Tobirama can outperform him in stamina department, obviously, but actual jutsu-to-jutsu comparison is favoring Kakashi.


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## Hamaru (Aug 2, 2013)

Without kamui, Kakashi can't beat Tobirama. With it, it would still be in Tobirama's favor due to his experience fighting sharingan users, his high level of sensing capabilities, and speed would help him work around Kamui.


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## ARGUS (Dec 3, 2013)

Tobirama has the firepower an versatility to overwhelm kakashi 
He's on a whole other level 
Tobirama wins


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 3, 2013)

Tobirama takes this in both scenarios. He's been portrayed to be beyond the level of people like Kakashi or anyone close in power to the Copy Ninja, for that matter. He also has a very good counter for Kamui, something most do not. Without Kamui, anyway, Kakashi doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell. 

So, the odds heavily favor the Second Hokage.


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## Ersa (Dec 3, 2013)

Kakashi needs Kamui to compete with Tobirama's Hiraishin, Tobirama has a fair amount more stamina so he makes enough clones to counter Kakashi's clone feints. Firepower generally goes to Tobirama as well with his Suiton and the exploding tag jutsu. Tobirama mid difficulty, he wins high difficulty if Kamui is allowed. Although Kakashi is powerful, Tobirama has just been portrayed at a higher level then he is.


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## Trojan (Dec 3, 2013)

The only thing that Tobirama superior at is his stamina. 

In the first scenario Tobirama wins high difficulty. 

in the second one Kakashi wins because of Kamui. Just in case, it's true that Minato avoided Kamui with FTG, but that's Minato's feats, not Tobirama, not to mention Minato's FTG is faster than Tobirama's, so just because he did it, it does not mean tobirama can do it as well!


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## ARGUS (Dec 4, 2013)

Elia said:


> The only thing that Tobirama superior at is his stamina.
> 
> In the first scenario Tobirama wins high difficulty.
> 
> in the second one Kakashi wins because of Kamui. Just in case, it's true that Minato avoided Kamui with FTG, but that's Minato's feats, not Tobirama, not to mention Minato's FTG is faster than Tobirama's, so just because he did it, it does not mean tobirama can do it as well!



FTG is FTG meaning it's instantaneous speed 
Speed feats dnt vary that much as tobirama can still put marks 
It's jus minatos is more versatile and better 
Not faster really 
So I reckon tobirama counters it


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## Dominus (Dec 4, 2013)

alex payne said:


> I wonder why Obito's(strongest living being currently, strongest biju inside, Rinnegan+Sharingan, closest to Rikkudo Sennin) sensing feats are automatically granted to every known sensor. Despite the feat being unique.



Nagato sensed that Itachi was going to use "Amaterasu".



Elia said:


> in the second one Kakashi wins because of Kamui. Just in case, it's true that Minato avoided Kamui with FTG, but that's Minato's feats, not Tobirama, not to mention *Minato's FTG is faster than Tobirama's*, so just because he did it, it does not mean tobirama can do it as well!



Even if it was (but from what we've seen it isn't), the difference is indistinguishable. Because of his better reflexes, Minato can activate it faster, but Tobirama is a sensor, so he should be able to sense when Kakashi's going to use Kamui. We've seen Tobirama attack Obito (who has much better reflexes than Kakashi) 3 or 4 times and be uninjured. 



DaVizWiz said:


> I laugh at the notion of paper tag explosives killing Kakashi even without Kamui.



And why is that?



DaVizWiz said:


> He has no ranged weapons applied with FTG, so he's limited to tagging the surface of the battlefield.



He can also mark clones.


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## Trojan (Dec 4, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> FTG is FTG meaning it's instantaneous speed
> Speed feats dnt vary that much as tobirama can still put marks
> It's jus minatos is more versatile and better
> Not faster really
> So I reckon tobirama counters it


Tobirama disagree. 
I don't remember the chapter's number exactly now, but it may be 641 or 642
When he stated that it may be too slow


Authoritah said:


> Even if it was (but from what we've seen it isn't), the difference is indistinguishable. Because of his better reflexes, Minato can activate it faster, but Tobirama is a sensor, so he should be able to sense when Kakashi's going to use Kamui. We've seen Tobirama attack Obito (who has much better reflexes than Kakashi) 3 or 4 times and be uninjured.
> .



Minato had the time to arrive, teleport the TBB, separate the kunais, having a chit chat with his
Beloved child before the others arrive! 

The different might not be very clear if the distance is close just like the different between A's shunshin and Naruto's with Minato's FTG, but when the distance is too long that different start to
Be clearer as we saw with the hokages arrival. 

In the case of kamui it's stated that who strike first would win the fight, so even if the different
Between their FTG only a second it would still result of tobirama's lose.


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## Dominus (Dec 4, 2013)

Elia said:


> Tobirama disagree.
> I don't remember the chapter's number exactly now, but it may be 641 or 642
> When he stated that it may be too slow
> 
> ...



Did we see them teleport to the battlefield? No.
Was it ever confirmed that they teleported to the battlefield? No.
Why would Minato leave the others while teleporting just himself if he can teleport them faster?
Do they already have marks at the battlefield? 
How did Sasuke and Juugo arrive so quickly when they came separately?
Many unanswered questions yet you're so certain, I don't know why when it's just an assumption/theory.

How do you know that Tobirama and Kakashi would fight the same way Minato and Obito did? Hiraishin is still faster than Kamui and Tobirama can most likely sense it coming.


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## Trojan (Dec 4, 2013)

Authoritah said:


> Did we see them teleport to the battlefield? No.
> Was it ever confirmed that they teleported to the battlefield? No.
> Why would Minato leave the others while teleporting just himself if he can teleport them faster?
> Do they already have marks at the battlefield?
> ...



- we dont have to. 
- actually yes. 
- plot to show that he's faster than the others. 
- who knows! 
- plot 
- because 

1- hashi told tobi to use FTG 
2- tobi compared his own to minato because they have the same jutsu 
3- every time tobi use the word shunshin is to describe the FTG as in chapter 637 and two times in chapter 650. 

4- it does make sense, the entire manga stated that minato is the fastes, no one has praised tobi
As such. 

- they won't fight the same, but I see Kakashi superior to tobi in everything other than 
The chakra, and tobi lost against weaker foes than Kakashi, so I don't see why wouldn't 
Kakashi make it!


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## Dominus (Dec 4, 2013)

Elia said:


> - we dont have to.
> - actually yes.
> - plot to show that he's faster than the others.
> - who knows!
> ...



You basically haven't answered to any of my questions. 

What are you talking about, how do you know that Kakashi would defeat them when we don't know how strong they were?
Why don't you explain how Kakashi wins instead of comparing him to people we don't even know.


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## richard lewis (Dec 4, 2013)

Elia said:


> - we dont have to.
> - actually yes.
> - plot to show that he's faster than the others.
> - who knows!
> ...



How do you figure tobirama lost to weaker opponents than kakashi?


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