# EMS Madara vs Full Kurama



## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Location : battle of the three sannins
Knowledge : manga 
Restriction : Genjutsu/Fuinjutsu 
Distance : 50m


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 24, 2015)

Well he can't kill him, at least not for long (he will respawn at a later date) not sure if he can seal something that big and powerful considering 
1. He doesn't have any sealing jutsu, though let's be honest it's Madara, he definitely does
2. Minato, a sealing expert, had to use Uzumaki clan's most powerful sealing techniques to instantly seal Kurama 

I guess temporarily killing Kurama is considered a win, Kurama would no longer be a threat to Madara for a reasonable time frame and would spawn somewhere else in the world anyway, so BFR comes into the equation as well as fundamentally "stopping" or "nullifying the threat" of Kurama


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> I guess temporarily killing Kurama is considered a win


Yes , and also Fuinjutsu isn't allowed .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 24, 2015)

Lmao I saw you made that restriction because of me 

I'm honored 

Yeah and PS should be enough to take him, it tanked Kurama's bijuudama quite well and the mountain slicer shock wave is something that Kurama 
1. Cannot see
2. Cannot avoid even if he did see it
3. Can easily pre-detonate bijuudama before they come close to Madara once they hit them, might even repel them considering Naruto and Juubi repelled bijuudama with physical force/speed (which is basically physical force) and they did not explode immediately

The shock wave has incredible destructive capacity, hitting the meteor and destroying the landscape and then continuing on to slice through a mountain miles away.

Of course the PS Blade itself should also be quite powerful, if that hits Kurama directly I would imagine the damage would be worse considering 
1. It's still carrying the shockwave force with it, he doesn't have to not hit him with it for the shock wave to be applied 
2. It's still a Susano Blade, which we know has great cutting power even in inferior forms with smaller blades, that is being swung fast enough to create mountain slicing shock waves
3. A broken, smaller PS blade being spun by a bijuudama was powerful enough to knock down Hashirama's Rash gates and continue going across a sea, and of course was powerful enough to slice through some of the Buddha hands when spun and carried by bijuudama


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

I only want to know who would  win between PS and Kurama .


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## Amol (Sep 24, 2015)

Manga knowledge may make Kurama win here.
You can unrestrict Genjutsu here.
With manga knowledge Kurama is not going to look in his eyes and he is a sensor anyway.
Kurama gives Naruto that superfast speed. So he himself is quite fast. Faster than Madara at any rate.
Kurama would know that going near to PS is not gonna help him.
He can turn fight inti a long range battle of attrition . Keep a safe distance , move constantly and spam BDs. Kurama is good strategist after all.
IMO Kurama wins here.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 24, 2015)

it took six paths senjutsu powered kurama to fight on par with PS. 

madaras V4 susano already tanked kuramas bijudama without sustaining any damage. PS isnt necessarily threatened by kurama. madaras PS could either tank any bijudama that kurama dishes out or it could take flight and dodge them.

PS slashes would maim kurama pretty badly.


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## Amol (Sep 24, 2015)

Yeah lets give feats of Sasuke's susanoo to Madara's.
So much sense in single post.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 24, 2015)

Amol said:


> Yeah lets give feats of Sasuke's susanoo to Madara's.
> So much sense in single post.



if sasukes PS had shown any feats above madaras, then you would have a point. sadly, it didnt.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 24, 2015)

Amol said:


> Manga knowledge may make Kurama win here.
> You can unrestrict Genjutsu here.
> With manga knowledge Kurama is not going to look in his eyes and he is a sensor anyway.
> Kurama gives Naruto that superfast speed. So he himself is quite fast. Faster than Madara at any rate.
> ...



Madara could force others to look him in the eye like he did with Ei.

And Kurama looked into Obito's eye despite recognizing the guy as an Uchiha. So he can make a mistake.

Madara could blitz SM Naruto too and even before he got SM chakra. With his use of mokuton bunshins in his fight against the gokage Madara proved to be quite cunning too. He can use kage bunshins as well.

Kurama could potentially create a super bijuudama capable of seriously damaging PS but he needs some charging time which Madara could use for some long ranged slashes before the charging was complete. In general though they seem to be equally strong PS and 100% Kurama.

Madara got the advantage of being more battle hardened IMO as Kurama did not spend every day of his life fighting much less against worthy opponents that could match its power like Hashi was for Madara. 



Shinobi no Kami said:


> if sasukes PS had shown any feats above madaras, then you would have a point. sadly, it didnt.



Sasuke's PS was capable of destroying Madara's CTs which were powered by the power of a Juubi Jin and bigger and much more durable than the mountains that Madara's PS destroyed though.

Six Path chakra and Rinnegan should make PS much stronger than one powered with just EMS IMO.


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## Amol (Sep 24, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> if sasukes PS had shown any feats above madaras, then you would have a point. sadly, it didnt.



It is common sense that one which is powered by RS chakra would be more powerful.
Which you clearly don't have.
Though it seems you can't read either  considering by feats Sasuke's PS is tiers above Madara's.
But then again fanboy mind works in mysterious way .


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Madara's Perfect Susano'o didn't really tanked Kurama's BD , he used two twin Susano'o swords to slice the explosion and defend himself :


And the databook said that Hashirama  to resist to the explosion and that make a lot of sens since only the head was there after the impact 

Then Naruto used only a little Senjutsu quantity against Sasuke"s Perfect Susano'o , he need all Bijuu's Chakra to fight his full power  :


Plus it was Tomoe rinnegan PS , the chakra is much stronger than base EMS PS .

Kurama can tank PS slashs using his tails , and he is smart enough to create opportunities and place BD directly on the armour , he has more destructive power , so he should win this after a long fight .


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 24, 2015)

Amol said:


> It is common sense that one which is powered by RS chakra would be more powerful.
> Which you clearly don't have.
> Though it seems you can't read either  considering by feats Sasuke's PS is tiers above Madara's.
> But then again fanboy mind works in mysterious way .


sasukes PS isnt powered by hagoromos chakra. im not sure how one would even come to that conlcusion. 

the best feat that sasukes PS has is chopping madaras CT, which were a few times taller than the shinjus stump, which PS itself is taller than.

the mind of the sasuke fanboy really is a mystery. i agree.


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## Amol (Sep 24, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara could force others to look him in the eye like he did with Ei.
> 
> And Kurama looked into Obito's eye despite recognizing the guy as an Uchiha. So he can make a mistake.
> 
> ...


Obito was just another Uchiha(and not to mention Naruto was perfect jinchuriki at that time. Kurama didn't had anything to be afraid of from Genjutsu department).
But Madara is personal for him.
I think Kurama will try extra harder against Madara.
Madara is the last person whom he will take lightly.
Madara didn't exactly blitzed SM Naruto. Naruto blocked the attack. Blitzing would mean that Naruto not even knowing what hit him.
Not that it matters.
Kurama is levels above in speed compared to SM Naruto.
All Kurama here needs to do is avoid CQC. And I think he can do that.
I am pretty sure he can take PS blade on his tails too. They have impressive feats against Juubi.
I am not saying Kurama wins this easily.
Just he wins imo.


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## Amol (Sep 24, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> *sasukes PS isnt powered by hagoromos chakra*. im not sure how one would even come to that conlcusion.


Alright I take it back.
You aren't just a fanboy.
You are a lame troll too who didn't read the manga. 
Welcome to my ignore list.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Sasuke's PS isn't just powered by Hagoromo's chakra but also by 6 Tomoe Rinnegan , it's by far more powerful than a mere MSE PS .


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 24, 2015)

Amol said:


> Alright I take it back.
> You aren't just a fanboy.
> You are a lame troll too who didn't read the manga.
> Welcome to my ignore list.


seems like you're the one whos comprehension skills are lacking.
sasuke didnt have hagoromos chakra outside of the yin seal. this is entirely different to the rinnegans six paths power.
i dont mind being on your ignore list. it guarantees that you will no longer post a nonsense reply to any of my posts.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami
 said:
			
		

> this is entirely different to the rinnegans six paths power.


Then you think EMS chakra's power is equal to the rinnegans six paths ?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Then you think EMS chakra's power is equal to the rinnegans six paths ?



no. im saying that sasukes PS has no feats above madaras, so an argument for sasukes PS being stronger is baseless wank.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami	
 said:
			
		

> no, im saying that sasukes PS has no feats above madaras, so there is nothing to justify it being stronger.


How can you compare their performence ? How could you say that Madara's PS can slice CT like did Sasuke . If we don't have feat , we rely on hype or logic , and logically Tomoe Rinnegan is a lot more powerful than EMS .


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> How can you compare their performence ? How could you say that Madara's PS can slice CT like did Sasuke . If we don't have feat , we rely on hype or logic , and logically Tomoe Rinnegan is a lot more powerful than EMS .



you are asking how do we know that sasukes feat isnt out of madaras range? thats obvious.

we know this through size comparison. PS stands taller than the shinjus stump, so cutting those meteors isnt anywhere near past the limit of madaras PS.


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## Empathy (Sep 24, 2015)

Madara wins. Summoning the Kyuubi wasn't his trump card; perfect _Susanoo_ was (or rather, combining them).


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## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> *Then Naruto used only a little Senjutsu quantity against Sasuke"s Perfect Susano'o ,* he need all Bijuu's Chakra to fight his full power  :



Citation Needed.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> we know this through size comparison. PS stands taller than the shinjus stump, so cutting those meteors isnt anywhere near past the limit of madaras PS.


Euh no , Madara's PS is just Kyubi and human wood tall , Hashirama's Boudha , is tens of times bigger , and the Boudha itsel is a looot a lot smaller than the Shinju .

Human wood = Madara's Perfect Susano'o :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Human wood = Kyubi = Perfect Susano'o :


Hashirama's SenshuSenju is much bigger than Kyubi and the PS :


Based on this picture above , we obtain this , SinshuSenju inside the barrier :


And The barrier comparaed to the Shinju : 


*Madara's PS is just a grain of sand comared to the God tree .
*

While Shinju barely exceed clouds height level

*Spoiler*: __ 







Madara JJ's meteors are so big that we see the space , the earth and the moon , it's a hol another level :


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> Citation Needed.


It's on the picture you just have to read :
_All this natural energy coming this suddenly...?! _


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## Hachibi (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It's on the picture you just have to read :
> _All this natural energy coming this suddenly...?! _



No, the problem is you trying to quantify the senjutsu Naruto used before BPS came out.

Yeah, the senjutsu he had is nothing compared to the quantity he gained to fight Indra's Arrow, but saying that he got little against Sasuke's non bijuu enhanced PS is baseless.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> Yeah, the senjutsu he had is nothing compared to the quantity he gained to fight Indra's Arrow, but saying that he got little against Sasuke's non bijuu enhanced PS is baseless.


Anyways , Sasuke's PS is by far stronger than Madara's , I have already explained why in my previous post .


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## Arles Celes (Sep 24, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> no. im saying that sasukes PS has no feats above madaras, so an argument for sasukes PS being stronger is baseless wank.



One question: which PS do you think is more powerful, Sasuke's BIJUU PS or Madara's EMS PS?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 24, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> One question: which PS do you think is more powerful, Sasuke's BIJUU PS or Madara's EMS PS?



biju PS obviously. 

biju PS>madaras iso susano>sasukes PS=madaras PS.

sasukes PS would only be capable of edging out madaras PS with PS chidori, not its slash.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

Amol said:


> Alright I take it back.
> You aren't just a fanboy.
> You are a lame troll too who didn't read the manga.
> Welcome to my ignore list.


Discovered what I knew about Shinobi no Kami for years? His hard-on for Hashirama's generation is so great he even believes either Hashirama or EMS Madara can defeat the fucking Juubi.

As for the topic? Kurama wins. His firepower is far greater than Madara's Perfect Susano'o, his durability is far greater too. He can tank everything Madara can throw at him and retaliate with damage far greater.



Empathy said:


> Madara wins. Summoning the Kyuubi wasn't his trump card; perfect _Susanoo_ was (or rather, combining them).


How do you make up for the power advantage Kurama has over Madara? Even half-power was enough to overwhelm five Biju, while Madara's Perfect Susano'o was, by his own admission, only as strong as a Biju. Full power Kurama shits on Perfect Susano'o in terms of feats when it comes to DC and durability. Hell he can deflect the Susano'o swords all day long with his tails.



Arles Celes said:


> One question: which PS do you think is more powerful, Sasuke's BIJUU PS or Madara's EMS PS?


Shinobi no Kami ignores the fact Sasuke was casually slicing up _country-sized_ meteors upon gaining his Rinnegan, something that makes Madara's feats look like a tiny blip on the radar in comparison. Shinobi no Kami is one of the worse fanboy trolls here.


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## Tarot (Sep 24, 2015)

Madara's PS tanked Kurama's TBB, so his strongest attack is shut down. Not sure what what else he's supposed to attack Madara with.


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## Empathy (Sep 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How do you make up for the power advantage Kurama has over Madara? Even half-power was enough to overwhelm five Biju, while Madara's Perfect Susano'o was, by his own admission, only as strong as a Biju.



Is the Kyuubi not a bijuu? Hashirama and Madara were said to exercise complete control over the bijuu, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for that to be the zenith of their power. Something they did casually and were treated as bargaining chips. They'd wreck those five bijuus even better than bijuu mode Naruto did.



> Full power Kurama shits on Perfect Susano'o in terms of feats when it comes to DC and durability.



A supercharged _Bijuudama_ is probably greater than anything perfect _Susanoo_ can accomplish in one attack. Still, standard _Bijuudamas_ only destroy one mountain, while one of Madara's slashes affect an entire mountain range; his sword swings also don't take time to be charged up. Moreover, perfect _Susanoo_ was used to protect the Kyuubi from Hashirama and was treated as greater threat. I think its got noticeably superior durability. 



> Hell he can deflect the Susano'o swords all day long with his tails.



Even taking away Hagoromo power-ups to equalize them, you're basing this off of natural-energy enhanced Kyuubi on the defensive against Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_; thus, that's flawed. BSM was treated as a great power-up over just BM Naruto, as was _Sennin_ Hashirama far stronger than base Hashirama. Just the Kyuubi without natural energy was dealt with by Hashirama and Edo Madara's fourth or fifth strongest technique on two separate occasions. 

Kurama's tail feats without sage augmentation include penetrating _Sennin_ Madara's v3 _Susanoo_ just enough to inflict marginal injury when combined with all the other bijuu tails. His tail was enough to slightly overpower _Chou Oodama Rasengan_. You're trying to tell me Madara's ultimate, mountain-range-busting trump, is gonna be on the same DC tier as Jiraiya's? That's nothing on mountain range busting from kilometers away with just one swing. BM Naruto and BSM Naruto shouldn't both be above Sasuke with perfect _Susanoo_. It wouldn't reflect their status as rivals if Sasuke powers up, only to still remain weaker than Naruto from two power-ups ago.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> Even taking away Hagoromo power-ups to equalize them, you're basing this off of natural-energy enhanced Kyuubi on the defensive against Sasuke's perfect Susanoo; thus, that's flawed. BSM was treated as a great power-up over just BM Naruto, as was Sennin Hashirama far stronger than base Hashirama. Just the Kyuubi without natural energy was dealt with by Hashirama and Edo Madara's fourth or fifth strongest technique. Kurama's tail feats without sage augmentation include penetrating Sennin Madara's v3 Susanoo just enough to inflict marginal injury. That's nothing on mountain range busting from kilometers away with just one swing. BM Naruto and BSM Naruto shouldn't both be above Sasuke with perfect Susanoo. It wouldn't reflect their status as rivals if Sasuke's powers up, only to remain weaker than Naruto from two power-ups ago.


Since when an EMS PS is equal in power to Rikudo Rinnegan PS .


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## Empathy (Sep 24, 2015)

Bold the first eight words of the first sentence and then reread the part about Kurama's tail, plus all the other bijuus' tails being needed just to bust a v3, natural-energy-enhanced _Susanoo_ and inflict negligible injury. Do you think if Madara's perfect _Susanoo_ struck _Sennin_ Madara's v3 _Susanoo_, it'd only accomplish this much damage? [1] 

The only way Kurama can parry perfect _Susanoo's_ sword is if he's hawked up on sage juice. I'm well aware that stripping Rikudou Naruto down of Hagoromo's chakra and natural energy while devolving Sasuke accordingly, doesn't make for an accurate depiction. It was my entire point.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

No Madara used a giant Susano'o against the Bijuu , his has the same size as Shukaku :




It's the same size of Sasuke's giant Susano'o , the size of Bunta or Manda , tens of times bigger than Susano'o clones used against Gokage .



> Do you think if Madara's perfect Susanoo struck Sennin Madara's v3 Susanoo, it'd only accomplish this much damage?


V3 will be instantly destroyed by PS and any Bijuu , but we are talking about giant V3 Susano'o , yeah PS  can only accomplish this much damage with only one hit .



> The only way Kurama can parry perfect Susanoo's sword is if he's hawked up on sage juice. I'm well aware that stripping Rikudou Naruto down of Hagoromo's chakra and natural energy while devolving Sasuke accordingly, doesn't make for an accurate depiction. It was my entire point.


PS have to use his twin sowords to slice basic BD's explosion , if not he will be severly damaged . Plus 6Tomoe rinnegan allow the user to use a terrificaly stronger chakra compared to a mere MSE .


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## Empathy (Sep 24, 2015)

I think it was the same size as the legged ones used against the Gokage, but you are right about the one used against the bijuus being a lot stronger than a normal v3 _Susanoo_. It was enhanced with natural energy, which made it a lot stronger; it's a distinction I made sure to mention, but it's still nothing compared to perfect _Susanoo_. That only drives my point home further that natural energy augmentation is a lot bigger of a deal in power-ups than most people around here treat it. When Rikudou Sasuke absorbed all the bijuus chakra (the sort of thing that makes Juubi jinchuurikis) and ascended to a level on par with three-eyed Madara and Hagoromo—Naruto was able to equal him and even edge a win by just absorbing more natural energy (well, all of the world's surface, but still).

*Edit:* Perfect _Susanoo_ plus 100% Kyuubi lost to Hashirama. Perfect _Susanoo_ plus (not even 100%) Kyuubi with natural energy defeated Juubi Obito. Again, natural energy enhancement is a *big deal*.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

Death Arcana said:


> Madara's PS tanked Kurama's TBB, so his strongest attack is shut down. Not sure what what else he's supposed to attack Madara with.


Madara's Armored Susano'o tanked a Bijudama as powerful as the ones used here. While mind-controlled, Kurama couldn't supercharge his Bijudama (which is insanely fast to do).


Empathy said:


> Is the Kyuubi not a bijuu? Hashirama and Madara were said to exercise complete control over the bijuu, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for that to be the zenith of their power. Something they did casually and were treated as bargaining chips. They'd wreck those five bijuus even better than bijuu mode Naruto did.


No, they really wouldn't. Kurama is the strongest of all nine tailed beasts, even at half-power equal to five of them. Hashirama and Madara's control over Biju is lacking compared to Perfect Jinchuriki, they can't do the supercharging of the Bijudama's and the Biju are literally mindless beasts that throw their power around randomly under their control. Perfect Jinchuriki can draw upon the FULL power of the Biju they used in comparison. 




> A supercharged _Bijuudama_ is probably greater than anything perfect _Susanoo_ can accomplish in one attack. Still, standard _Bijuudamas_ only destroy one mountain, while one of Madara's slashes affect an entire mountain range; his sword swings also don't take time to be charged up. Moreover, perfect _Susanoo_ was used to protect the Kyuubi from Hashirama and was treated as greater threat. I think its got noticeably superior durability.


Susano'o was treated as a greater threat since it stops Hashirama's ability to suppress Kurama with the Hokage-Shiki Jijun Jutsu — Kakuan Nitten Suishu. Bijudama's don't only destroy mountains, they *vaporize* them. Perfect Susano'o merely cuts them in half which takes a lot less power and a lot less energy. To completely vaporize a mountain? You need hundreds of gigatons of power to do it. To cut a mountain in half? You need tens of megatons, if not a hundred, to do. The power disparity of both attacks is massive.




> Even taking away Hagoromo power-ups to equalize them, you're basing this off of natural-energy enhanced Kyuubi on the defensive against Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_; thus, that's flawed. BSM was treated as a great power-up over just BM Naruto, as was _Sennin_ Hashirama far stronger than base Hashirama. Just the Kyuubi without natural energy was dealt with by Hashirama and Edo Madara's fourth or fifth strongest technique on two separate occasions.


Kurama can cover himself with Kurama Chakra Mode, enhancing his speed, durability, and reflexes Empathy. And Kurama can absorb Natural Energy too to enhance himself. 

Perfect Susano'o isn't anywhere close to Kurama's durability too considering Kurama can tank his own supercharged Bijudama, which is above anything Perfect Susano'o can do, hell its a bit above Choju Kebetsu.
Kurama's tail feats without sage augmentation include penetrating 





> _Sennin_ Madara's v3 _Susanoo_ just enough to inflict marginal injury when combined with all the other bijuu tails. His tail was enough to slightly overpower _Chou Oodama Rasengan_. You're trying to tell me Madara's ultimate, mountain-range-busting trump, is gonna be on the same DC tier as Jiraiya's? That's nothing on mountain range busting from kilometers away with just one swing. BM Naruto and BSM Naruto shouldn't both be above Sasuke with perfect _Susanoo_. It wouldn't reflect their status as rivals if Sasuke powers up, only to still remain weaker than Naruto from two power-ups ago.


Kurama was said to be able to do EVERYTHING Madara's Perfect Susano'o can do...with a single tail swipe. He could dig out of fucking Chibaku Tensei while not at full half-power. Cho Odama Rasengan was easily blocked and overpowered. 

Sasuke realized how below he was to Naruto during the battle with Obito, remember? Just by seeing Biju Mode he realized how inferior he was and it pissed him off.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> I think it was the same size as the legged ones used against the Gokage, but you are right about the one used against the bijuus being a lot stronger than a normal v3 Susanoo. It was enhanced with natural energy, which made it a lot stronger; it's a distinction I made sure to mention, but it's still nothing compared to perfect Susanoo. That only drives my point home further that natural energy augmentation is a lot bigger of a deal in power-ups than most people around here treat it. When Rikudou Sasuke absorbed all the bijuus chakra (the sort of thing that makes Juubi jinchuurikis) and ascended to a level on par with three-eyed Madara and Hagoromo?Naruto was able to equal him and even edge a win by just absorbing more natural energy (well, all of the world's surface, but still).


So you think Gokage can beat 25 BM Naruto like  .

No Susano'os used against Gokage's are all this size :

*Spoiler*: __ 







The same size as Sasuke here , the only difference is that Sasuke's Susano'o has no legs :



Aoda's size is equal to Gamakichi , himself at the same level of a Bijuu or Naruto's BM :


The Susano'o Madara used against The Bijuu is tens of times bigger than the mini-Susano'o clones against Gokage .


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## Empathy (Sep 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o was treated as a greater threat since it stops Hashirama's ability to suppress Kurama with the Hokage-Shiki Jijun Jutsu — Kakuan Nitten Suishu. Bijudama's don't only destroy mountains, they *vaporize* them. Perfect Susano'o merely cuts them in half which takes a lot less power and a lot less energy. To completely vaporize a mountain? You need hundreds of gigatons of power to do it. To cut a mountain in half? You need tens of megatons, if not a hundred, to do. The power disparity of both attacks is massive.



When base Hashirama's (base is a very important distinction) _Mokuryuu_ was combating the 100% Kyuubi, Madara had to erect his destabilized _Susanoo_ to protect the Kyuubi from base _Mokujin_ shoving his own attack back at him. It cost _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ all its auxiliary arms to peel away _Susanoo_ when combined with the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi by itself, wouldn't be able to defeat base Hashirama's _Mokujin_. Edo Madara was able to force Naruto out of his bijuu mode using just _Mokuryuu_. In terms of their jutsu hierarchy we're looking at:

*Hashirama:*
Senpou: Shinsuusenju
Senpou: Mokujin
Senpou: Mokuryuu
Shinsuusenju (?)
Mokujin
Mokuryuu

By itself, the Kyuubi ranks at and would be dealt with by Hashirama's fifth or six strongest technique. Edo Hashirama fought Edo Madara's _Susanoo_ using _Senpou: Mokujin_ and _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ combined, and needed _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ to peel away its armor when used in conjuction with the Kyuubi. That's Hashirama's top three techniques, compared to his fifth or six best against the Kyuubi. It was the same with Edo Madara. _Mokuryuu_ (without natural energy) forced Naruto out of his full bijuu form. 

Madara saw Naruto's 50% Kyuubi without natural energy and didn't seem concerned enough to even entertain using perfect _Susanoo_ against it. Presuming Edo Madara should be capable of using _Shinsuusenju_ and _Mokujin_ as well, and considering his ability to drop meteors casually, Edo Madara dealt with Kurama using only his fourth or fifth best attack. The Kyuubi by itself would be completely unable to handle base Hashirama's _Mokujin_ and _Mokuryuu_ together, let alone Hashirama using _Senpou: Mokujin_ and _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ like he did to combat Madara's _Susanoo_. Perfect _Susanoo_ was treated as a greater threat than the Kyuubi because it's stronger. It's as simple as that.



> Kurama can cover himself with Kurama Chakra Mode, enhancing his speed, durability, and reflexes Empathy. And Kurama can absorb Natural Energy too to enhance himself.



I'm not speaking of Kurama amplified by natural energy. He didn't learn to do that until he and Naruto buddied up, though. I agree, _Sennin_ Kurama would be definitely be able to edge a victory against perfect _Susanoo_. 



> Perfect Susano'o isn't anywhere close to Kurama's durability too considering Kurama can tank his own supercharged Bijudama, which is above anything Perfect Susano'o can do, hell its a bit above Choju Kebetsu.



Perfect _Susanoo_ tanked dozens of _Bijuudamas_ and _Bijuudama_-level attacks. BM Naruto isn't approaching _Sennin_ Hashirama's best attack without using _Sennin Modo_ himself. 



> Kurama was said to be able to do EVERYTHING Madara's Perfect Susano'o can do...with a single tail swipe.



When was this said and when was it shown?



> He could dig out of fucking Chibaku Tensei while not at full half-power. Cho Odama Rasengan was easily blocked and overpowered.



EMS Madara's best attack would laugh at Nagato's best attack; they're worlds apart. That's a completely irrelevant feat to bring up. If Jiraiya charged at EMS Madara's perfect _Susanoo_ sword with _Chou Oodama Rasengan_ in hand, he'd get cleaved in half and the land miles behind him would be decimated; not just get pushed backward a bit like Naruto was, which was my point. 

Also, great job at addressing my point about all the bijuus' tails being required just to break open _Sennin_ Madara's v3 _Susanoo_. There is no way Kurama's tail can match perfect _Susanoo_ slashes without _Sennin Modo_ and I think you just don't want to concede to it. 



> Sasuke realized how below he was to Naruto during the battle with Obito, remember? Just by seeing Biju Mode he realized how inferior he was and it pissed him off.



He realized that when he was still stuck using a v3 _Susanoo_ with Juugo compared to BSM Naruto. He then promptly powered-up to gain perfect _Susanoo_ and become Naruto's peer again (they pooled their power to defeat juubi Obito). This point isn't pertinent to your argument and only strengthens my argument.


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## Empathy (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So you think Gokage can beat 25 BM Naruto like  .
> 
> No Susano'os used against Gokage's are all this size :
> 
> ...



The size is pretty irrelevant, as I've already made it clear that it was a _Sennin Modo_-enhanced v3 _Susanoo_. The _Susanoos_ the Gokage fought were used by moku bunshin while Madara was jobbing and they weren't using natural energy. That makes this a pointless, nit-picky, and stubborn disagreement. I still think it's pretty clear the _Susanoo_ wasn't as tall as the bijuu, though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

Empathy said:


> When base Hashirama's (base is a very important distinction) _Mokuryuu_ was combating the 100% Kyuubi, Madara had to erect his destabilized _Susanoo_ to protect the Kyuubi from base _Mokujin_ shoving his own attack back at him. It cost _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ all its auxiliary arms to peel away _Susanoo_ when combined with the Kyuubi. The Kyuubi by itself, wouldn't be able to defeat base Hashirama's _Mokujin_. Edo Madara was able to force Naruto out of his bijuu mode using just _Mokuryuu_. In terms of their jutsu hierarchy we're looking at:


Kurama was able to beat Hashirama's Mokuryu and Mokujin. He destroyed Mokuryu's head (thus stopping its chakra absorption) and cut it in half with a single swipe of his paw.


> *Hashirama:*
> Senpou: Shinsuusenju
> Senpou: Mokujin
> Senpou: Mokuryuu
> ...


First of all, Naruto and Kurama didn't even use Biju Sage Mode against Edo Madara. Secondly, Mokuryu was defeated by Biju Mode Naruto with a Shunshin, that was basically showing what Mokuryu can do. Third, Mokujin has nothing which can put Kurama down. You're severely underestimating Kurama's power.




> I'm not speaking of Kurama amplified by natural energy. He didn't learn to do that until he and Naruto buddied up, though. I agree, _Sennin_ Kurama would be definitely be able to edge a victory against perfect _Susanoo_.


He doesn't need Sage abilities to triumph over Perfect Susano'o. Kurama is superior in every single way to it. You ignore the fact that Kurama's DC and durability advantage.




> Perfect _Susanoo_ tanked dozens of _Bijuudamas_ and _Bijuudama_-level attacks. BM Naruto isn't approaching _Sennin_ Hashirama's best attack without using _Sennin Modo_ himself.


Perfect Susano'o only tanked ONE standard level Bijudama. Biju Mode Naruto's DC surpasses Hashirama's Choju Kebetsu by insane amounts: this shows how inferior Hashirama's power is to Naruto/Kurama's when it comes to DC. Kurama can carve out a 100 kilometer wide crater with a Bijudama, that's big enough to fit the entire Valley of the End in.





> When was this said and when was it shown?


Chapter 1: Once a Nine-Tailed Demon Fox appeared. One swing of its tails could crumble mountains and cause tsunami's. This was demonstrated when Naruto was in Biju Mode and when Kurama dug out of Chibaku Tensei.




> EMS Madara's best attack would laugh at Nagato's best attack; they're worlds apart. That's a completely irrelevant feat to bring up. If Jiraiya charged at EMS Madara's perfect _Susanoo_ sword with _Chou Oodama Rasengan_, he'd get cleaved in half and the land miles behind him would be decimated; not just get pushed backward a bit like Naruto was, which was my point. Also, great job at addressing my point about all the bijuus' tails being required just to break open _Sennin_ Madara's v3 _Susanoo_. There is no way Kurama's tail can match perfect _Susanoo_ slashes without _Sennin Modo_ and I think you just don't want to concede to it.


EMS Madara would kind of be challenged by Chibaku Tensei. The sheer size and scale of the attack can comfortably fit Perfect Susano'o within it. Kurama was able to dig out of it despite the gravitational pressure. And stop bringing up Cho Odama Rasengan, Kurama fodderized it. He blocked it with ease and dispersed it. 

Kurama alone overpowered and pinned Madara's v3 Susano'o and it was crushed and obliterated with fucking tail slaps like nothing. You really like overestimating Madara's attacks.




> He realized that when he was still stuck using a v3 _Susanoo_ with Juugo compared to BSM Naruto. He then promptly powered-up to gain perfect _Susanoo_ and become Naruto's peer again (they pooled their power to defeat juubi Obito). This point isn't pertinent to your argument and only strengthens my argument.


And Perfect Susano'o still didn't close the gap. Naruto's power with Biju and Biju Sage Mode trumps Perfect Susano'o's to such an amount, the only way Sasuke closed the gap was the Rinnegan, and by then Naruto got Six Path Sage Mode/Six Path Senjutsu to again pull ahead.

Perfect Susano'o's power was completely inferior to that of Kurama's. Hence why Madara needed Kurama to just equal Hashirama's own power even though he couldn't draw upon Kurama's full abilities and might.



Empathy said:


> The size is pretty irrelevant, as I've already made it clear that it was a _Sennin Modo_-enhanced v3 _Susanoo_. The _Susanoos_ the Gokage fought were used by moku bunshin while Madara was jobbing and they weren't using natural energy. That makes this a pointless, nit-picky, and stubborn disagreement. I still think it's pretty clear the _Susanoo_ wasn't as tall as the bijuu, though.


You think v3 Susano'o period is even close to the might of a single Biju though?


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2015)

Without his Genjutsu/sealing, Madara is getting trashed.

Kurama has MUCH more firepower than Madara's PS, and he can obviously fight for much longer. 
Madara's PS is not going to scratch Kurama as we have seen that Kurama's tails are strong enough to stop
the PS slashes even with 50% of his full chakra.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

Hell 50% Kurama could block the Juubi's beam Bijudama with minimum damage. Madara's slashes are not getting through.


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hell 50% Kurama could block the Juubi's beam Bijudama with minimum damage. Madara's slashes are not getting through.




We already have direct comparison
with minimum damage.
with minimum damage.

Madara's PS is not going to do jack-shit to Kurama. He is outclassed by everything.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Empathy said:


> The size is pretty irrelevant, as I've already made it clear that it was a _Sennin Modo_-enhanced v3 _Susanoo_. The _Susanoos_ the Gokage fought were used by moku bunshin while Madara was jobbing and they weren't using natural energy. That makes this a pointless, nit-picky, and stubborn disagreement. I still think it's pretty clear the _Susanoo_ wasn't as tall as the bijuu, though.


No , It was a Bijuu-size Susano'o , I have already explained why before :

*Spoiler*: __ 



No Madara used a giant Susano'o against the Bijuu , his has the same size as Shukaku :




It's the same size of Sasuke's giant Susano'o , the size of Bunta or Manda , tens of times bigger than Susano'o clones used against Gokage .



And Gokage will never dream to fight BM Naruto and rivals him in battle . 
And Bijuu-size Susano'o got stomped in OS by the physical power of Bijuu's tails that's all .
Perfect Susano'o is much bigger and stronger physically than a Bijuu , but he will get severly blitzed if he fought against the 9 of them at the same time .


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> .
> *Perfect Susano'o is much bigger and stronger physically than a Bijuu *, but he will get severly blitzed if he fought against the 9 of them at the same time .



Says who? 

They are the same size, and physically matched. 
Here's Itachi saving Naruto.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Rikudo Naruto's BM is a lot bigger than the base BM .


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Rikudo Naruto's BM is a lot bigger than the base BM .



Where did you get that from?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

Yeah I wouldn't use Six Path Chakra empowered Kurama for that dude. Size wise, all but Full Kurama is dwarfed by the sheer size of PS.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Where did you get that from?


Since Kurama, while under Six Path Power, was as big as Perfect Susano'o. Without it, he's much smaller.


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## Empathy (Sep 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama was able to beat Hashirama's Mokuryu and Mokujin. He destroyed Mokuryu's head (thus stopping its chakra absorption) and cut it in half with a single swipe of his paw.



How exactly is he stopping _Mokujin_ then, or _Mokuryuu_ used in conjunction with it? Based on feats, how is it stopping their _senpou_ variants? _Mokujin_ is strong enough to catch the Kyuubi's strongest attack and throw it back at him. He can't exactly just claw at it. Anyway, destroying the dragon's 'head' shouldn't accomplish anything. The dragon head is just shape manipulation; it's not an actual, living dragon. _Mokuryuu_ was later shown intact, having regenerated afterward, because it's a piece of wood and not a real dragon. That's like saying attacking the face of _Shinsuusenju_ would somehow crumble the whole thing. What, did it attack its brain or something? It's also not a chakra vampire that needs to stick its fangs in to suck out chakra; it was shown draining them by just being wrapped around them. 



> First of all, Naruto and Kurama didn't even use Biju Sage Mode against Edo Madara. Secondly, Mokuryu was defeated by Biju Mode Naruto with a Shunshin, that was basically showing what Mokuryu can do. Third, Mokujin has nothing which can put Kurama down. You're severely underestimating Kurama's power.



I did say fifth or sixth, but we're barely cracking top 5 here. Kurama by himself can't shrink down to Naruto size to escape it; which is just what he did—escape it. It was shown still active and growing while restraining the Hachibi and Gai until Gai attacked and the Hachibi could break free. That further disproves your theory that Naruto attacking the head somehow killed its brain or something. The Kyuubi is the one that can't put base _Mokujin_ down, not the other way around. Its _Bijuudamas_ would just get shoved back into it, which can certainly kill the Kyuubi, but _Mokujin_ can just put it to sleep like it did in canon. The 100% Kyuubi would straight-up lose to Hashirama's fifth strongest jutsu without Madara there.



> He doesn't need Sage abilities to triumph over Perfect Susano'o. Kurama is superior in every single way to it. You ignore the fact that Kurama's DC and durability advantage.



I'm not ignoring any of your points; I'm refuting the ones I disagree with. There's a difference. 



> Perfect Susano'o only tanked ONE standard level Bijudama. Biju Mode Naruto's DC surpasses Hashirama's Choju Kebetsu by insane amounts: this shows how inferior Hashirama's power is to Naruto/Kurama's when it comes to DC. Kurama can carve out a 100 kilometer wide crater with a Bijudama, that's big enough to fit the entire Valley of the End in.



Big enough to fit in it? Hashirama is the one who created it. _Choju Kebetsu_ was more than matching dozens of _Bijuudamas_ combined with perfect _Susanoo_ swords, which is what perfect _Susanoo_ tanked. Which is why I said, "_Bijuudama-level attacks_." It was strong enough to match _Bijuudamas_ and keep going. 



> Chapter 1: Once a Nine-Tailed Demon Fox appeared. One swing of its tails could crumble mountains and cause tsunami's. This was demonstrated when Naruto was in Biju Mode and when Kurama dug out of Chibaku Tensei.



I figured that's what you were referring to. That's clearly just unsubstantiated hyperbole from opening narration, though. Digging it's way out of ball made of mountain isn't the same as crumbling multiple mountains and causing multiple tsunamis (plural) with just one swing. 



> EMS Madara would kind of be challenged by Chibaku Tensei. The sheer size and scale of the attack can comfortably fit Perfect Susano'o within it. Kurama was able to dig out of it despite the gravitational pressure.



Perfect _Susanoo_ standing up is taller than the bijuu. Its head and legs would comically be sticking out of the one Nagato used. One swing at the core would obliterate it. 



> And stop bringing up Cho Odama Rasengan, Kurama fodderized it. He blocked it with ease and dispersed it.



Clashing with _Sennin_ Naruto and midly pushing him back isn't fodderizing anything. My point is, you're saying that a clash between perfect _Susanoo_ and Kurama's tail would look the same as his tail versus _Sennin_ Naruto, which is stupid.



> Kurama alone overpowered and pinned Madara's v3 Susano'o and it was crushed and obliterated with fucking tail slaps like nothing. You really like overestimating Madara's attacks.



He did pretty much what _Yata Kuzushi_ accomplished against the 100% Kyuubi. This is the bottom line here: if Kurama's tail can't even break _Sennin_ Madara's v3 _Susanoo_ on its own—then how is it going to match perfect _Susanoo_? What you're doing is really just a lot of naysaying and nitpicking, but when I pointed out how Rikudou Naruto was boosted by natural energy when his tails clashed with Rikudou Sasuke's _Susanoo_, you were left without a leg to stand on anymore. 



> And Perfect Susano'o still didn't close the gap. Naruto's power with Biju and Biju Sage Mode trumps Perfect Susano'o's to such an amount, the only way Sasuke closed the gap was the Rinnegan, and by then Naruto got Six Path Sage Mode/Six Path Senjutsu to again pull ahead.



They were nigh equals by the end. Stripping away the equal power Hagoromo gave them, and you arrive at Sasuke being at BSM Naruto's level. How can Naruto barely win if he and Sasuke both gained equal power from Hagoromo? If Naruto was already so vastly stronger than Sasuke that he needs perfect _Susanoo_ just to surpass KCM Naruto, how can they be nigh equals after receiving the same power? BM Naruto being superior to Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ doesn't make any narrative sense when they're suppose to be rivals; you just want to believe Naruto was already way stronger, except Naruto barely won. 



> Perfect Susano'o's power was completely inferior to that of Kurama's. Hence why Madara needed Kurama to just equal Hashirama's own power even though he couldn't draw upon Kurama's full abilities and might.



These two sentences were just unsubstantiated and superfluous fluff. Hashirama used his sixth strongest technique to combat the 100% Kyuubi and Madara had to use perfect _Susanoo_ to protect the 100% Kyuubi from Hashirama's fifth best attack. It's that simple.



> You think v3 Susano'o period is even close to the might of a single Biju though?



How can you possibly misconstrue that sentiment from that quote?


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah I wouldn't use Six Path Chakra empowered Kurama for that dude. Size wise, all but Full Kurama is dwarfed by the sheer size of PS.



How increasing the power means you increased your size? 

Sasuke's PS is not even as big as Naruto's FRS TBB. 

here is their size (each one of them)
Chapter 1: Once a Nine-Tailed Demon Fox appeared. One swing of its tails could crumble mountains and cause tsunami's.

and in the second panel you see Sasuke's PS compared to them.

Unless you think Naruto became a giant after receiving Hago's power, but that wouldn't explain
Kakashi and Sakura's size in comparison to them.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

Hussain said:
			
		

> Where did you get that from?


Naruto BM = Bunta = Shukaku

Bunta = 1/2 Full Kyubi without tails

Full Kyubi = Perfect Susano'o

So , Rikudou Naruto BM is much bigger than the base BM .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> We already have direct comparison
> Chapter 1: Once a Nine-Tailed Demon Fox appeared. One swing of its tails could crumble mountains and cause tsunami's.
> Chapter 1: Once a Nine-Tailed Demon Fox appeared. One swing of its tails could crumble mountains and cause tsunami's.
> 
> Madara's PS is not going to do jack-shit to Kurama. He is outclassed by everything.


.... you're using a feat from 50% Rikudo Bijuu Mode Naruto. 

Six Paths Sage Bijuu Mode Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100% Kurama

Also the Juubidama laser tanking feat... if that were Kurama his tails would've been destroyed, and he'd of been extremely fucked up as a result of it, bleeding out really badly. 

There's a huge difference between Kurama's chakra being formed into his image through Naruto, and his actual physical body. "Injuries" sustained from a chakra cloak of Kurama, versus an embodiment of Kurama, are vastly different. One just destroys the chakra and Naruto is left with a partial avatar, the other destroys Kurama's actual, real, flesh and blood body. 

If you're going to use 50% BM Naruto's durability feats for 100% Kurama, you'd better use the feat of 50% BSM Naruto's entire avatar being vaporized by a simple Jubito drop slam, which means Kurama would've been severely fucked up by a wrestling move from Jubito, not even close to PS Slash's destructive capacity.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Naruto BM = Bunta = Shukaku
> 
> Bunta = 1/2 Full Kyubi without tails
> 
> ...



Really? Did anyone make some size estimates to compare the size of BM Naruto's Kurama avatar and RSM Naruto's Kurama avatar?

Personally I think that they looked equally big and it was just an increase in power. Same with Sasuke's EMS PS and Rinnegan PS.

I wonder if in the Last or Boruto, Naruto's BM with 100% Kurama looks bigger than previous Kurama avatars...



DaVizWiz said:


> .... you're using a feat from 50% Rikudo Bijuu Mode Naruto.
> 
> Six Paths Sage Bijuu Mode Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100% Kurama



True, but an Rinnegan and Six Path chakra powered PS should be much stronger than an EMS powered PS I think.

As for as the comparison goes between EMS PS and Kurama I think that they are roughly equal in the physical department with PS being perhaps a bit more durable but Kurama having a stronger chakra attack with super bijuudama. Maybe Madara could channel jutsus via PS like Sasuke could with chidori but all we saw was Susanoo using hand signs to summon a meteor. Hard to gauge Madara's PS speed either as we saw little of it. If it was fast enough then maybe it could dodge any bijuudamas otherwise Madara would need to slash quick to prevent any charged bijuudama...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

Empathy said:


> How exactly is he stopping _Mokujin_ then, or _Mokuryuu_ used in conjunction with it? Based on feats, how is it stopping their _senpou_ variants? _Mokujin_ is strong enough to catch the Kyuubi's strongest attack and throw it back at him. He can't exactly just claw at it. Anyway, destroying the 'head' shouldn't accomplish anything. The dragon head is just shape manipulation; it's not an actual, living dragon. _Mokuryuu_ was shown having regenerated afterward, because it's a piece of wood, not a dragon. That's like saying attacking the face of _Shinsuusenju_ would somehow crumble the whole thing. What, did it attack its brain or something?


Without the head, Mokuryu was unable to absorb chakra. Thus was completely ineffective and was torn to ribbons. And that isn't Kurama's strongest attack that the Mokujin caught, it caught a standard power Bijudama, nothing more and was obliterated by the explosion. Hence why Hashirama had to use the Hobi Technique to block it. 




> I did say fifth or sixth, but we're barely cracking top 5 here. Kurama by himself can't shrink down to Naruto size to escape it; which is just what he didescape it. It was shown still active and growing while restraining the Hachibi and Gai until Gai attacked and the Hachibi could break free. That further disproves your theory that Naruto attacking the head somehow killed its brain or something.


Kurama already fodderized it without Naruto's help. Single standard Bijudama was all that was needed to take it out of the fight. Naruto obliterated its head and cancelled the jutsu. Gyuki and Guy broke free from that and Guy's Hirudora pinning Madara down.


I'm not ignoring any of your points; I'm refuting the ones I disagree with. There's a difference. 



> Big enough to fit in it? Hashirama is the one who created it. _Choju Kebetsu's_ was more than matching dozens of _Bijuudamas_ combined with perfect _Susanoo_ swords, which is what perfect _Susanoo_. Which is why I said, "_Bijuudama-level attacks_." It was strong enough to match _Bijuudamas_ and keep going.


The crater gouged out by Choju Kebetsu was about half the size of the crater that Naruto's Super Bijudama created, so Naruto's Super Bijudama was twice as powerful as Choju Kebetsu in terms of pure DC. Those Bijudamas due to the rapid fire nature were far weaker than even the standard ones, going for quantity over quality. 




> I figured that's what you were referring to. That's clearly just unsubstantiated hyperbole from opening narration, though. Digging it's way out of ball made of mountain isn't the same as crumbling multiple mountains and causing multiple tsunamis (plural) with just one swing.


 Clawing its way out of a planetoid, with ease, that was made up of multiple mountain ranges is a physical feat which shows Kurama can physically obliterate mountains. 




> Perfect _Susanoo_ standing up is taller than the bijuu. Its head and legs would comically be sticking out of the one Nagato used. One swing at the core would obliterate it.


Perfect Susano'o is a bit smaller than a mountain. Chibaku Tensei was so big mountains were like ant-hills in comparison. Yeah, Perfect Susano'o wouldn't be standing out, it'd fit perfectly inside just like Naruto's KN8 Biju Mode.




> Clashing with _Sennin_ Naruto and midly pushing him back isn't fodderizing anything. My point is, you're saying that a clash between perfect _Susanoo_ and Kurama's tail would look the same as his tail versus _Sennin_ Naruto, which is stupid.


It didn't get pushed back and the Cho Odama Rasengan was fodderized by a roar. The technique was completely useless against it.




> He did pretty much what _Yata Kuzushi_ accomplished against the 100% Kyuubi. This is the bottom line here: if Kurama's tail can't even break _Sennin_ Madara's v3 _Susanoo_ on its ownthen how is it going to match perfect _Susanoo_? What you're doing is really just a lot of naysaying and nitpicking, but when I pointed out how Rikudou Naruto was boosted by natural energy when his tails clashed with Rikudou Sasuke's _Susanoo_, you were left without a leg to stand on anymore.


Kurama's tail was grinding it to the ground and it was completely overpowered. Hell there were cracks already appearing on it before the tail slap. Full Kurama can block the blades all day considering her blocked the Juubi's beam at 50% power with his tails.




> They were nigh equals by the end. Stripping away the equal power Hagoromo gave them, and you arrive at Sasuke being at BSM Naruto's level. How can Naruto barely win if he and Sasuke both gained equal power from Hagoromo?


Naruto was operating on empty during his battle with Sasuke, while Sasuke was relatively fresh from conserving his chakra for a longer time. The manga made it clear Naruto was at a disadvantage against Sasuke due to exhaustion from fighting the War almost non-stop. And it still didn't stop Naruto from dealing with Sasuke's best offenses, while holding back so he wouldn't kill him, casually. Sasuke had to get powered up _mid-fight_ to force Naruto to fight seriously.

Without Six Paths Chakra, the gap between Naruto and Sasuke was even greater. Naruto had the advantage over Sasuke in *every* category. Perfect Susano'o didn't close the gap since its power is still inferior to that of the full power of Kurama Naruto could use.


> If Naruto was already so vastly stronger than Sasuke that he was only stronger than KCM Naruto, how can they be nigh equals after receiving the same power? BM Naruto being superior to Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ doesn't make any narrative sense when they're suppose to be rivals; you just want to believe Naruto was already way stronger, except Naruto barely won.


The final battle made it clear that Sasuke was only close in power to Naruto because he was holding back and was exhausted from fighting the entire War. At full power, Naruto would have been able to defeat Sasuke easily. Hell, when Sasuke had to get a power-up mid battle...how can you say they were equals? 

Rivals aren't always equal in power too. Goku and Vegeta are rivals, but Goku's power was always one step ahead of Vegeta's. Vegeta had to get a Majin power up just to equal Goku's Super Saiyan 2 power, but if Goku decided to use Super Saiyan 3 he'd have beaten Vegeta easily, for example. Same thing with Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto's power had gotten so far ahead of Sasuke that each and every time Sasuke caught up, Naruto was still one step ahead. Even Sasuke admitted this in his post-defeat narration.


> These two sentences were just unsubstantiated and superfluous fluff. Hashirama used his sixth strongest technique to combat the 100% Kyuubi and Madara had to use perfect _Susanoo_ to protect the 100% Kyuubi from Hashirama's fifth best attack.


Madara was only protecting Kurama from getting his chakra drained and suppressed. Otherwise...how exactly can Hashirama even _hurt_ Kurama, much less beat him? 



Hussain said:


> How increasing the power means you increased your size?
> 
> Sasuke's PS is not even as big as Naruto's FRS TBB.
> 
> ...


Perfect Susano'o are always Mountain Size. The fact Naruto's Six Path Sage Biju Mode could equal it in size means that Six Paths Chakra increased Kurama's size tremendously.


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## ARGUS (Sep 24, 2015)

Full Kyuubi wins this, 

 12 Continous TBB are damaging madaras PS quite abit, and given that kyuubi can fire those off even moore, maens that PS gets busted 

it will still take a heck load of  PS slashes to take something thats physically much superior to the kurama avatar


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

12 TBBs certainly would've helped him against Minato. 

What I do recall is Hashirama & Minato both reacting to TBBs with relative ease because of their slow charge time and linear speed. 

Also, he got blitzed by half-dead, near-zero chakra Kushina's chakra chains.

PS Slash hits him before he even visualizes the sword moving, the shock wave is invisible and crossed an entire battlefield to destroy mountains way off in another area code in the same visual caption.

One Slash should repel the first bijudama into the second that is being charged, blowing two TBBs up in his face before he makes a third, then PS Slashes him another dozen times until he's pasted. 

This is logical considering BM Naruto's humanoid shunshin deflected 5 of them, and I'm willing to bet PS Slash > BM Humanoid Naruto shunshin in force by feats, portrayal and basic logic.

At the very least the slash pre-detonates them, which means they don't come close to damaging Madara, considering the double mountain-wide single slash radius of PS , the shock wave not only pre-detonates them, it continues on past TBB before it detonates to knock Kurama on his ass if he's charging another, which blows up in his face.

Aftering creating ruble and a concussive blast that dwarfed his own PS in size and volume by multiples directly in front of it, the shock wave still had enough power to travel across the landscape destroying it along the way and slice two mountains, and continue on past these two mountains to create a cloud of destruction beyond them.

This level of power certainly has the capacity to repel/pre-detonate TBBs, especially considering he has 2 swords and 4 arms with the Susano, and going by basic logic he could hold a single sword with 4 arms and increase the power behind the slash by a multiple of 4, you certainly don't see MLB players hitting home runs with one arm on the bat. Slashing with two arms on the two swords simultaneously would be one hell of a firework show, and I wouldn't put it past him having the ability to manifest two other swords to equip each arm with a sword and slashing with all 4 simultaneously.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 25, 2015)

Madara with Perfect Susano'o makes the Kyuubi his bitch.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:
			
		

> biju compared to shinju.


The Shinju is in the background , we don't know how long is the distance between its branches and the Bijuu , so we can't make a precise comparaison from there .

Otherwise we know that Sasuke's  giant Susano'o has the same size as BM Naruto corps (without tails) is by far smaller than a secondary branch , not to mention the principal ones :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Same here , Naruto and Sasuke's Susano'o are much much smaller than Shinju's branch that we can't even make a comparaison :


And we can see here that BM Naruto is about the same size as the other Bijuu (except Gobi who is bigger) :

This proves that the distance between the Bijuu and Shinhu's branches is really incredibly large .


From there I can easily say that :
BM Naruto (with tails) = Shukaku = Bunta .(apromaxively)

And Bunta's size is about half Full Kurama's size without tails :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Here we can see that normal wood human+wood dragon are arround Full Kurama's size without tails (a little more corpulent) :


We can see here that SenshuSenju principal hand is about Full Kurama's torso size , the same for Wood Human+Dragon :


And then the conclusion :








Now , it's pretty clear that , SS's size is nothing compared to Shinju .


Here the Shinju :


Same here , JJ Madara's meteors are apparently as big as Shinju :


Sasuk's 6 path rinnegan PS can easily destroy many Meteors using his slash , Madara's PS can never do that , it's a whole another level .

Plus RSBM Naruo's BD is by far more destructive than a mere base BD :
Look at the gap :
Between this :


And this :


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

The only one I disagree with is V3 Susano Clones with Madara hpcaptain.

Here's a good post from another forum explaining their size.

It didn't get pushed back and the Cho Odama Rasengan was fodderized by a roar. The technique was completely useless against it.

You don't really need this math to look at Sasuke's Susano [1] , and Madara's Susano  [4], and realize they're similar in size based on the size of Madara & Sasuke's bodies are in comparison to the structure.

Madara's V3 Legged did not deviate in size, even when he was in SM or when he was using it through clones. The size of the clone's V3 Legged was the same size as SM Madara's V3 Susano, both roughly being the same size as Sasuke's Pre-Rikudo PS based on the bodies shown within them.

The size of V3 Susano was clearly shown in that panel via the link, and with the size of their hands in punching Mei prove it. There's another scan of the Susano heads being as large/larger than Gaara's body [1] which confirms it as they're roughly the size of the hands 

When it comes to Susano you always look at the user inside of it to determine it's size, which is how you determine that Perfect Susano is significantly larger than Sasuke's Pre-Rikudo Perfect Susano. If you look closely you can see the dot in the gem's head which is Madara's body [1], this basically means the head of Madara's Susano is larger than Pre-Rikudo Sasuke's PS.

Sad part is people still suggest that Sasuke's Pre-Rikudo PS is of similar size as Madara's, and when I post that scan of Madara, they jump to saying "But Sasuke covered BSM Naruto with it" and my reply is of basic science... just because something covers something else it doesn't mean the mass is comparable. I can put a suit on right now... I am still much larger (mass) than the suit. All that is doing is covering the perimeter of my body, I am taking up far more space in the universe than that suit is. 

The sizes in your picture scan are generally accurate in terms of what is bigger than what... but the V3 Susano is of same size as Madara's SM Susano & Sasuke's Legged Susano, and they are all easily much smaller than the size of Madara's PS that you have as barely double the size of his SM V3, they should literally be smaller than the height of Madara's PS head, and even then, they don't even come close to the volume of chakra within that head (total mass of it, much more volume within it as it has significantly more width and length it- it literally just takes up much more space than those other Susanos).


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> You don't really need this math to look at Sasuke's Susano [1], and Madara's Susano [3], and realize they're similar in size based on the size of Madara & Sasuke's bodies are in comparison to the structure.


There is two V3 Susano'o :
-The normal one used by Madara against Gokage and Sasuke in combo with KCM Naruto against mini-Juubis .
-The giant one , used by Sasuke against Juubito and Madara against The Bijuu , it's a Bijuu size , the Bijuu are compared to PS ,* Gokage will never beat 25 Susano'o if they were at Bijuu level and they will never stand against 5 BM Naruto like for each one .*.

There is a very huge difference in size between them , I have already explained it :
-The normal V3 torso is smaller than Aoda's head :


-Himsel is as big as Madara's Susano'o clones used against Gokage :








Aoda is as big as BM Naruto , Susano'o EMS Sasuke used against Juubito hase the same size , a Bijuu like , same for Madara he used a Shukaku size Susano'o against the 9 Bijuu .

Giant V3 Susano'o>>>>>>base V3 Susano'o .


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> You don't really need this math to look at Sasuke's Susano [1], and Madara's Susano [3], and realize they're similar in size based on the size of Madara & Sasuke's bodies are in comparison to the structure.


There is two V3 Susano'o :
-The normal one used by Madara against Gokage and Sasuke in combo with KCM Naruto against mini-Juubis .
-The giant one , used by Sasuke against Juubito and Madara against The Bijuu , it's a Bijuu size , the Bijuu are compared to PS ,* Gokage will never beat 25 Susano'o if they were  Bijuu level and they will never rival 25 BM Naruto like .*.

There is a very huge difference in size between them , I have already explained it :
-The normal V3 torso is smaller than Aoda's head :


-Himsel is as big as Madara's Susano'o clones used against Gokage :








Aoda is as big as BM Naruto , Susano'o EMS Sasuke used against Juubito hase the same size , a Bijuu like , same for Madara he used a Shukaku size Susano'o against the 9 Bijuu .

Giant V3 Susano'o>>>>>>base V3 Susano'o .




> When it comes to Susano you always look at the user inside of it to determine it's size, which is how you determine that Perfect Susano is significantly larger than Sasuke's Pre-Rikudo Perfect Susano. If you look closely you can see the dot in the gem's head which is Madara's body [1], this basically means the head of Madara's Susano is larger than Pre-Rikudo Sasuke's PS.


No Madara is too small , Kishi can't fixe a human size in such a huge amout of chakra .
For example :

Madara here :


is about ten times smaller than the same Madara here :


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

hpcaptain, you're using incomplete Susano scans of Sasuke & Madara's V3s and comparing them to Aoda's head size. You posted 3 scans with Susanos that aren't even legged. Wtf are you doing?

I've posted the scans proving Madara's body in comparison to his V3 SM Susano is of measurable size to Sasuke's body in comparison to his PS size. 

If you look back it, I posted two scans of each:


> You don't really need this math to look at Sasuke's Susano [1] , and Madara's Susano  [4], and realize they're similar in size based on the size of Madara & Sasuke's bodies are in comparison to the structure.



Do I need to circle the bodies for you? Look at their bodies compared to their Susano size man. 

Yes, we know the scales can be inconsistent, but I always take the largest scale scan as canon. Madara is a literal dot [1] in comparison to the size of his PS head, it's expressed in 3 captions in the same panel, this is consistent. 

Sasuke's body in comparison to his PS head isn't even close to being a dot, the length of his body is literally 1/4th the length of it's head, which can be measured at under 8 meters. I've posted two scans of it, this is consistent.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> 've posted the scans proving Madara's body in comparison to his V3 SM Susano is of measurable size to Sasuke's body in comparison to his PS size.
> 
> If you look back it, I posted two scans of each.
> 
> Yes, we know the scales can be inconsistent, but I always take the largest scale scan as canon. Madara is a literal dot in comparison to the size of his PS head, Sasuke's body in comparison to his PS head isn't even close to being a dot.


Are you saying that the 25 legged Susano'o used against Gokage are the same size as the one used against the Bijuu , are you serious , then Juubito fought against two Madara's clones , and one Kage level can stand against him ? Are you trolling .

I have already shown , the size is inconsistant , and for the sake of manga's logic :
*Legged Susano'os against Gokage<<<<<<<<<<Legged Sasuke's Susano'o against Juubito=Legged Madara's Susano'o against the Bijuu .
*
Madara himsel said that the Bijuu can be compared to his PS , so what are you balblating here .

*Legged Susano'o = V3 Susano'o + leggs thats all , leggs won't expand his size to tens of  times taller .
*

I have already used Aoda's size to prove than Gokage fought 25 little V3 legged Susano'os , and it's logical , *so for you Gokage can rivals Juubito and easily beat BM Naruto ? .*


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

Dude, I posted the scans. Are you denying Madara's body size in those scans? It's not bigger than his Clone V3s, at all. Clone V3 fists and heads were comparable to the size of Mei & Gaara's bodies. 

Manga logic? Manga logic is what is shown in the scans. 

Body comparisons to the size of these Susano prove that 

(Fist the size of Mei and Gaara nearly the size of heads) Madara Clone V3 = (Madara Body nearly the size of head) Madara SM V3 = (Body nearly the size of head) Pre-Rikudo Sasuke PS


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

2*Madara Clone V3=Legged Madara CloneV3<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<giand Legged MadaraV3=giant Legged Sasuke V3

I have already explained why using manga's feats  :


*Spoiler*: __ 



There is a very huge difference in size between them , I have already explained it :
-The normal V3 torso is smaller than Aoda's head :


-Himsel is as big as Madara's Susano'o clones used against Gokage :








Aoda is as big as BM Naruto , Susano'o EMS Sasuke used against Juubito hase the same size , a Bijuu like , same for Madara he used a Shukaku size Susano'o against the 9 Bijuu .

Giant V3 Susano'o>>>>>>base V3 Susano'o .




*And definitally you are a troll , so to you Onoki (after all he defeated 5 BM Naruto according to you) can fight Juubito at equal arms and even beat him (Since Juubito lost to two Madara clones like)*


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

Just because the V3 Susano Clones are of equal size to Sasuke's PS doesn't mean they are as powerful as them.

Onoki touching 5 V3 Susano Clones and weighing them down doesn't mean he can touch BSM Naruto or CSPS Sasuke, who are significantly faster than those V3 Susano Clones and have significantly more power.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> Just because the V3 Susano Clones are of equal size to Sasuke's PS doesn't mean they are as powerful as them.


No , if they are the same size ,then they both have the same destructive power  and you are saying just now that any Gokage member , stand a chance against BM Naruto's rival , that's a total nonsens , *and I already proved by manga's feats and logic  that : V3 legged Susano'o Clones<<<<<<<<V3 legged Susano'o against Juubito if we compare their size .
*



> Onoki touching 5 V3 Susano Clones and weighing them down doesn't mean he can touch BSM Naruto or CSPS Sasuke, who are significantly faster than those V3 Susano Clones and have significantly more power.


BSM Naruto is on a whole another level than Gogake , he can fight and rivals MSE Madara , you know the one who can use PS , the PS who scare the Gokage .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

> No , if they are the same size ,then they both have the same destructive power  and you are saying just now that any Gokage member , stand a chance against BM Naruto's rival , that's a total nonsens , *and I already proved by manga's feats and logic  that : V3 legged Susano'o Clones<<<<<<<<V3 legged Susano'o against Juubito if we compare their size .
> *


No, this is not true. 

Bijuu Perfect Susano was the same size as his normal Rikudo PS, but had far more speed and power, instantly overpowering and outspeeding the same RBSM Naruto that was previously blocking and reacting to his non-bijuu PS with ease.

Those V3 Susano Clones were inferior to Sasuke's PS by a good measure, his blade struck with significantly more force [1]  and his Susano had significantly more speed (pressuring Jubito to use Goudama wall, moving at speeds equal to BSM Naruto). 

We can even argue ribcages have more durability than others. Sasuke's ribcage Susano was broken through by the 4th Raikage's chop, the same guy could not even partially penetrate EMS Madara's ribcage Susano with a downward chop. 



> BSM Naruto is on a whole another level than Gogake , he can fight and rivals MSE Madara , you know the one who can use PS , the PS who scare the Gokage


Of course he is, that's what I'm saying.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, this is not true.


So what are you saying about that :


*Spoiler*: __ 





-Himsel is as big as Madara's Susano'o clones used against Gokage :








Aoda is as big as BM Naruto , Susano'o EMS Sasuke used against Juubito hase the same size , a Bijuu like , same for Madara he used a Shukaku size Susano'o against the 9 Bijuu .

Giant V3 Susano'o>>>>>>base V3 Susano'o .








> Bijuu Perfect Susano was the same size as his normal Rikudo PS, but had far more speed and power, instantly overpowering and outspeeding the same RBSM Naruto that was previously blocking and reacting to his non-bijuu PS with ease.


Yeah and it's Bijuu power , Sasuke used the chakra of all Bijuu's to use a Susnao'o of that level , EMS Sasuke has nothing like that .




> Those V3 Susano Clones were inferior to Sasuke's PS by a good measure, his blade struck with significantly more force [1]  and his Susano had significantly more speed (pressuring Jubito to use Goudama wall, moving at speeds equal to BSM Naruto).


I don"t see what the links between those two feats , Sasuke sliced one of Shinju's lillte branches , just like Tobirama , Mifune or Hiruzen , Madara's clones can do the same if they were as big as him . *Plus Sasuke's susano'o against Juubito is about tens of times stronger than Madara's clones . Are you saying it's not the case .
*



> We can even argue ribcages have more durability than others. Sasuke's ribcage Susano was broken through by the 4th Raikage's chop, the same guy could not even partially penetrate EMS Madara's ribcage Susano with a downward chop.


What's that :

*Spoiler*: __


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So what are you saying about that :
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Slashing through 600m of a Shinju Branch is clearly superior to a Susano failing to even partially penetrate through a sand wall less than 2m of width. What are you smoking dude?

Notice I said "failed to penetrate his ribcage", I did not say "fail to even crack it"

Raikage put his hand completely through Sasuke's ribcage and forced his neck back, he could not even put his hand into Madara's Ribcage. He chopped it and it cracked, he didn't even make an indent. 

My feat of BPS being the same size as his regular Rikudo PS w/ wings, yet having far more speed & physical power proves size doesn't dictate power of Susano. 

You are wrong. 

We're not getting anywhere, I'll end here. Please don't reply with anymore paragraphs.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 25, 2015)

just realized that none of the images in my previous post was working, so now im going to repost my scans in this post.


hbcaptain said:


> The Shinju is in the background , we don't know how long is the distance between its branches and the Bijuu , so we can't make a precise comparaison from there .


nice cop out. the three tails is right next to one of the roots.

here we can clearly see 50% kurama next to the roots, merely another biju worth of space away.

your perspective argument doesnt hold.


> Otherwise we know that Sasuke's  giant Susano'o has the same size as BM Naruto corps (without tails) is by far smaller than a secondary branch , not to mention the principal ones :
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


that "secondary root" rivals one of the main outstretching roots in size.


kurama with tails included is double the size of sasukes V3 susano.

im not even sure what you are comparing them to in your second scan.

this panel stands no matter what.



> And we can see here that BM Naruto is about the same size as the other Bijuu (except Gobi who is bigger) :
> 
> This proves that the distance between the Bijuu and Shinhu's branches is really incredibly large .


how on earth does this prove that the biju were far away from the roots when panels clearly show them to be approximately 1 to a few "biju steps" away?


> From there I can easily say that :
> BM Naruto (with tails) = Shukaku = Bunta .(apromaxively)
> 
> And Bunta's size is about half Full Kurama's size without tails :


bunta is clearly not half the size of 100% kurama based on that scan.

not when kuramas entire head is shown to be longer than buntas entire body.

*Spoiler*: __ 









> Here we can see that normal wood human+wood dragon are arround Full Kurama's size without tails (a little more corpulent) :


only half of the mokujin is manifested. if you are saying that the mokujin in this panel is equal to 100% kurama in size, you would be saying that half of the mokujin matches the scale of 100% kuramas body.


> We can see here that SenshuSenju principal hand is about Full Kurama's torso size , the same for Wood Human+Dragon :
> 
> And then the conclusion :


i cant even wrap my head around how you came to this conclusion. none of the content in your posts make a shred of sense.
shinsuusenju being capable of wrapping its hand around the mokujin doesnt disprove it being bigger than kurama.  

you are saying that the mokujin in the war arc is bigger than the one used during VOTE for absolutely no reason whatsoever, all so you can nerf shinsuusenju.

a half manifested mokujin was blatantly shown to be the same size as a half manifested PS.

how you got PS being>>>>>mokujin in size is unfathomable.



i honestly dont know what to think of this. you think that the mokujin on top of shinsuusenjus head is a "base mokujin" despite hashirama summoning it while in sage mode. 
then you are assuming that a "base mokujin" is smaller than a "sage mokujin" despite it matching a half manifested PS in size with only half of its own body manifested.

there are other things wrong with your scaling chart, but its not relevant to this thread.
this is wrong, because PS is the same size as the mokujin, not half the size of shinsuusenju. whats so hard to understand?
shinsuusenju would be this big compared to obitos barrier based on the size of PS.


and now i want to know how this is an accurate depiction of the shinju vs obitos fully sized barrier when obito started dropping the barrier before the shinju even manifested.

*Spoiler*: __ 









> Now , it's pretty clear that , SS's size is nothing compared to Shinju .
> 
> 
> Here the Shinju :
> ...


what is making you think that madaras meteors are as big as the full shinju? they are shown to be larger than the stump, but not to the extent where they would match the tree in size.
why are you showing the combined explosion of PS chidori and bijudama?
i already know that narutos bijudama are greater in power than from one of the lower biju.

*correct scaling*
biju compared to juubis head.



god gate compared to juubis head.



PS compared to god gate.

*Spoiler*: __ 








biju compared to shinju.




from this, we know that a god gate is greater than or equal to a biju in size. *retaining the size proportion of a biju to PS,*(*which is the only correct course of action*)this is the result.


this is the only correct answer. all of your claims directly contradict these panels. that would make your claims invalid.


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