# A vs Tobirama [Spoilers: 641]



## Yagura (Jul 31, 2013)

*A vs Tobirama​**Restrictions:* None.
*Knowledge:* Manga.
*Battlefield:* A and B vs Minato.
*Starting Distance:* 10 meters.
*State of Mind:* IC.
*Conditions:* Tobirama is allowed feats from chapter 641. A has both arms.


----------



## joshhookway (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama was tagging Juubito. Tobirama would destroy A.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama can't get through Raiton Shroud without his Bombing tech. And that's a suicide without Edo Tensei. Unless some l33t KB-Hiraishin feint is used.

Starting distance combined with basically no knowledge and lack of Hiraishin tags around makes escaping initial blitz a very hard task.

Tobirama is above Raikage by portrayal imo but he needs ET and/or tagged battlefield to soundly win if use feats.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 31, 2013)

For now, I'd say A wins more times  than not.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 31, 2013)

A is too quick in V1 and V2. Tobirama can't catch up to him. I would give it to A more times then not.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jul 31, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Tobirama can't get through Raiton Shroud without his Bombing tech. And that's a suicide without Edo Tensei. Unless some l33t KB-Hiraishin feint is used.



Why would he not use edo tensei? There are no restrictions here. The battledome assumes that people fight at their strongest. So, this Tobirama would have edo tensei



alex payne said:


> Starting distance combined with basically no knowledge and lack of Hiraishin tags around makes escaping initial blitz a very hard task.



What? How many people has A blitzed? Did he blitz Madara? What happened when he attacked Sasuke? Suigetsu blocked him. What happened when he shunshin'ed at the same time as Darui? They both reached Sasuke at the same time. You are overrating A's speed. If Darui can react to it, Tobirama who Minato himself noted for his speed would definitely react to it. The only person A blitzed was a Zetsu clone. That's it



alex payne said:


> Tobirama is above Raikage by portrayal imo but he needs ET and/or tagged battlefield to soundly win if use feats.



Tobirama can teleport to anywhere he has tags. He teleported himself and Hashirama to the hokage mountain when they were brought back. He can use hiraishin to avoid A at any time. As a matter of fact, he can easily tag A once A attacks with his stupid linear attacks



TorJaN said:


> For now, I'd say A wins more time more than not.



I don't see how he wins against someone who can move faster than he does



Kazekage94 said:


> A is too quick in V1 and V2.



A in V1 and V2 could not do shit to Madara. You think Madara is faster than Tobirama?



Kazekage94 said:


> Tobirama can't catch up to him. I would give it to A more times then not.



Space time ninjutsu is faster than body movement. Tobirama's hiraishin makes A speed moot. Plus, Tobirama's speed was already noted to be amazing by none other than Minato


----------



## Trojan (Jul 31, 2013)

^ 
It's stated that A is the fastest after minato and naruto.


----------



## Illusive Frame (Jul 31, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama was tagging Juubito. Tobirama would destroy A.



Yeah, after he got most of his body taken out. He only survived because he was  an Edo.

If the same thing happened, Tobirama would die and A would not be damaged.

Anyways, A wins this. The only thing Tobirama has that can harm A is the tag explosions but he won't be tagging him unless A makes direct contact with Tobirama and if that happens, we get a repeat of what happened with Juubito and Tobirama. Just Tobirama isn't an Edo and will die from it.


----------



## God of Kingz (Jul 31, 2013)

Eh, Tobirama hasn't been shown to have reactions up to par with Minato nor does he have an easy way to spread around tags like Minato. Combine that with having no one summon with Edo Tensei... (or really any feats with at all) and he should lose rather soundly here. Most likely to the initial blitz.


A wins.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Tobirama can't get through Raiton Shroud without his Bombing tech.


No it's not all he needs to do is place a FTG marker near the enemy, teleport in releasing and detonating the explosive tags, and than teleporting away before they detonate. We've already seen FTG is faster than explosive tag detonation so there is no issue there. The only reason he didn't do this in the manga is because he didn't have a FTG marker set somewhere away from the explosion he could teleport to.

Tobirama could also just stick the explosive tags on a Bushin and teleport that Bushin to the marker with FTG, as that is essentially exactly what he did this chapter with Obito's Bomb.

Finally Edo Tensei isn't even restricted in this battle, so he can use Edo Tensei Suicide Technique.



> Starting distance combined with basically no knowledge and lack of Hiraishin tags around makes escaping initial blitz a very hard task.


Not really Tobirama reacted to Juubiobito's Shunshin blitz enough to not only place explosive tags on him, but also a FTG marker. Now that did cost him half of his body, but it was Juubiobito who is much faster than even A's top speeds, so it's still an incredible feat of speed/reaction time, one hyped by the fourth hokage himself. Heck he even seemed to react to Tobi's Bomb this chapter faster than Minato, though Minato may have been slowed down by the force of the exploding bomb pushing on his arm while Tobirama had the muscle to go through that unimpeded. However ether way we have yet another insanely good reaction feat this chapter. 

Tobirama can sense Raikage about to use Shunshin and react by teleporting to a FTG Marker, which he can create on anything and since his first move when actually joining the frey was to FTG marker something it's more IC that Tobirama lays down some FTG marker than it is that Raikage starts a match with max speed Shunshin blitz. 



> Tobirama is above Raikage by portrayal imo but he needs ET and/or tagged battlefield to soundly win if use feats.


I don't think he really needs ether to beat Raikage. Tobirama may not have displayed the convenience of Minato's FTG where Minato can spread out markers all over the place in an instant via his marked Kunai, but chances are by the time A tries to blitz at max speed he's going to have at least one marker or KB on the field he can teleport to and evade A's attack. 

Once he realizes A's speed is top notch he'll start using FTG and KB more proactively to evade A which means the creation of more markers. From there all Tobirama needs to do is get a mark near enough to A where he can deploy Gofuki Explosive Tags with ether himself + FTG or a KB. Considering Tobirama's intelligence, skill, and greater versatility, I don't see getting a marker that close being a problem. A is than defeated by Gofuki.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2013)

Manga knowledge means 0 knowledge.

It depends on how A opens. If A opens with a V2 lariat, Tobirama loses his head and dies where he stands.

If A goes with regular taijutsu first, Tobirama can hold his own for a while before he gets grabbed like Sasuke end gets destroyed. 

The downside with Tobirama's hirashin is that he doesn't have kunais to scatter his marks. So he lacks mobility. 
He also doesn't have enough firepower to bring A down. So even if he manages to tag A, with a bunshin or some shit, I don't see how he can follow up.

A wins with low - mid difficulty.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jul 31, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No it's not all he needs to do is place a FTG marker near the enemy, teleport in releasing and detonating the explosive tags, and than teleporting away before they detonate. We've already seen FTG is faster than explosive tag detonation so there is no issue there. The only reason he didn't do this in the manga is because he didn't have a FTG marker set somewhere away from the explosion he could teleport to.
> 
> Tobirama could also just stick the explosive tags on a Bushin and teleport that Bushin to the marker with FTG, as that is essentially exactly what he did this chapter with Obito's Bomb.
> 
> Finally Edo Tensei isn't even restricted in this battle, so he can use Edo Tensei Suicide Technique.


 Simple explosive tag isn't going to bother Raikage. Raikage himself is crazy fast and arguably can shunshin away from Kamikaze Bunshin using his best speed. Placing exp. tags on Raikage himself might also not work, considering his Raiton Shroud.



Turrin said:


> Not really Tobirama reacted to Juubiobito's Shunshin blitz enough to not only place explosive tags on him, but also a FTG marker. Now that did cost him half of his body, but it was Juubiobito who is much faster than even A's top speeds, so it's still an incredible feat of speed/reaction time, one hyped by the fourth hokage himself. Heck he even seemed to react to Tobi's Bomb this chapter faster than Minato, though Minato may have been slowed down by the force of the exploding bomb pushing on his arm while Tobirama had the muscle to go through that unimpeded. However ether way we have yet another insanely good reaction feat this chapter.
> 
> Tobirama can sense Raikage about to use Shunshin and react by teleporting to a FTG Marker, which he can create on anything and since his first move when actually joining the frey was to FTG marker something it's more IC that Tobirama lays down some FTG marker than it is that Raikage starts a match with max speed Shunshin blitz.


 Tobirama was able to tag Obito because of Edo Tensei. He is not Edo Tensei in this match. And again Raiton Shroud might stop him from touching Raikage. Minato for some reason didn't touch-tag him. We are still to see how Tobirama fights IC in normal conditions. 10 meters against Raikage = no tag placement at the opening anyways. 




Turrin said:


> I don't think he really needs ether to beat Raikage. Tobirama may not have displayed the convenience of Minato's FTG where Minato can spread out markers all over the place in an instant via his marked Kunai, but chances are by the time A tries to blitz at max speed he's going to have at least one marker or KB on the field he can teleport to and evade A's attack.
> 
> Once he realizes A's speed is top notch he'll start using FTG and KB more proactively to evade A which means the creation of more markers. From there all Tobirama needs to do is get a mark near enough to A where he can deploy Gofuki Explosive Tags with ether himself + FTG or a KB. Considering Tobirama's intelligence, skill, and greater versatility, I don't see getting a marker that close being a problem. A is than defeated by Gofuki.


Raikage blitzing is faster than _any_ move from Tobirama. He is Raikage. That's the only thing he is good for. Now, Tobirama _might_ be able to dodge. But opening phase is still favoring Raikage decisively.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 31, 2013)

With manga knowledge, Ei will be aware that Tobirama is the Nidaime Hokage, but given that Minato's Hiraishin was so secretive, I doubt very much he would know that Tobirama-who was less known for his Hiraishin use-had that kind of speed. Which is fortunate, because from this distance, Ei's full speed blitz would be too fast for Tobirama to physically defend against and he wouldn't have any tags on the battlefield so he would be forced to teleport away from the field and lose by retreat. However, Tobirama is only a touch slower than Minato, so he will have no issue defending himself from Ei's standard Raiton no Yoroi Shunshin. He can also test his defenses by planting explosives tags on Ei which will detonate futilely, but also mark him with the Hiraishin seal.

At that point, it will be very clear that he needs to use Gojou Kibaku Fuda to take Ei out. In the meanwhile, Ei will see the need to ramp up his shroud to maximum output so he can use his highest speed Shunshin. Tobirama can use Suiton: Suuiryudan to create a smokescreen and when Ei zips around and attacks with his horizontal cross chop to decapitate Tobirama from behind, he will be intercepted by another Kage Bunshin before he completes his strike. This Bunshin will hold down Ei long enough for the other one to detonate the explosive tags. 

Tobirama reveals himself sitting in a tree above. Tobirama with low difficulty.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Simple explosive tag isn't going to bother Raikage. Raikage himself is crazy fast and arguably can shunshin away from Kamikaze Bunshin using his best speed. Placing exp. tags on Raikage himself might also not work, considering his Raiton Shroud.


I'm talking about Gofuki Explosive Tags, not the normal variant.



> Tobirama was able to tag Obito because of Edo Tensei. He is not Edo Tensei in this match. And again Raiton Shroud might stop him from touching Raikage. Minato for some reason didn't touch-tag him. We are still to see how Tobirama fights IC in normal conditions. 10 meters against Raikage = no tag placement at the opening anyways.



1. Obito is not Raikage, Obito blitz'd KCM Naruto whose faster than Raikage's Top Speed. I only included that feat to illustrate Tobirama is quite fast, fast enough where he shouldn't have issue reacting to Raikage R1.

2. Raikage is not likely to use R2 (or Top Speed Amped up Shroud Shunshin) at the start of the match

3. Even when Raikage went for a top speed blitz against Minato at the start of their match. Minato had time to scatter Kunai before Raikage blitz'd and they were at a shorter distance than 10m. Granted Tobirama is not going to be able to scatter that many FTG Markers, because he hasn't shown weapons that are already marked, however he should be able to pull out a regular Kunai, which as he does he can mark it, and than throw it before Raikage's blitz and he only needs 1 Kunai to FTG to evade Raikage's blitz.

All of this combined makes Raikage blitzing Tobirama highly unlikely, unless Tobirama totally underestimates the guy, which doesn't seem like Tobirama's style to me



> Raikage blitzing is faster than any move from Tobirama. He is Raikage. That's the only thing he is good for. Now, Tobirama might be able to dodge..


.
See above



> But opening phase is still favoring Raikage decisively


It favors Raikage, but that doesn't mean he is likely to win, it just gives him a small window where if Tobirama underestimates him to a great degree & Raikage goes for Top speed blitz right away, that he might win. But that is only one scenario, every other way the battle can play out vastly favors Tobirama.


----------



## Hamaru (Jul 31, 2013)

I doubt speed would be an issue here. I think the issue would be if Tobirama could get through Ei's V2 armor or not.


----------



## joshhookway (Jul 31, 2013)

Illusive Frame said:


> Yeah, after he got most of his body taken out. He only survived because he was  an Edo.
> 
> If the same thing happened, Tobirama would die and A would not be damaged.
> 
> Anyways, A wins this. The only thing Tobirama has that can harm A is the tag explosions but he won't be tagging him unless A makes direct contact with Tobirama and if that happens, we get a repeat of what happened with Juubito and Tobirama. Just Tobirama isn't an Edo and will die from it.



Yet your ignoring the fact that Sasuke explicitly said that Tobirama was on suicide attack to find out Juubito's abilities.


An alive Tobirama would have evaded the attack instead of putting tags.


Who ever said Tobirama needs Edo Tensei for infinite explosions? All he has to do is place a tag to do that.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2013)

With Edo Tensei and the Explosion jutsu, he could easily get through A's shroud. This isn't the third Raikage....


----------



## trance (Jul 31, 2013)

Going with Big T on this one.


----------



## Dr. Leonard Church (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama's Hiraishin is slower than Minato's by his own statement, and I fail to see him matching up to E's speed. That, his lack of prep for Hiraishin, and the lack of necessary power to break through E's Raiton Shroud means E takes this handily.


----------



## egressmadara (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama would need to be an Edo to survive this. Otherwise, it's just suicide. In fact, I think that A would just one-shot Tobirama as he's putting his exploding tags on him since Hashirama isn't there to bind him.


----------



## joshhookway (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama instantly put tags on Juubito, who is way faster than A.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 31, 2013)

Well if tobirama can use clone diversions to FTG A's shroud and capitalized instantly  with his multiple explosions technique he could win...i mean that tech did blow up a gate of hashirama's. 

A has a easier chance to win as of now due to him having higher reactions and speed via V2....but tobirama has shown to be crude and sneaky with his clones and other tactics. By feats A would take it more times than tobirama but tobirama is not helpless and can win. It should be a stomp soon enough.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 31, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama instantly put tags on Juubito, who is way faster than A.



But he would have been dead, had he not been Edo.
He is not an Edo here, so...


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 31, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> With manga knowledge, Ei will be aware that Tobirama is the Nidaime Hokage, but given that Minato's Hiraishin was so secretive, I doubt very much he would know that Tobirama-who was less known for his Hiraishin use-had that kind of speed. Which is fortunate, because from this distance, Ei's full speed blitz would be too fast for Tobirama to physically defend against and he wouldn't have any tags on the battlefield so he would be forced to teleport away from the field and lose by retreat. However, Tobirama is only a touch slower than Minato, so he will have no issue defending himself from Ei's standard Raiton no Yoroi Shunshin. He can also test his defenses by planting explosives tags on Ei which will detonate futilely, but also mark him with the Hiraishin seal.
> 
> At that point, it will be very clear that he needs to use Gojou Kibaku Fuda to take Ei out. In the meanwhile, Ei will see the need to ramp up his shroud to maximum output so he can use his highest speed Shunshin. Tobirama can use Suiton: Suuiryudan to create a smokescreen and when Ei zips around and attacks with his horizontal cross chop to decapitate Tobirama from behind, he will be intercepted by another Kage Bunshin before he completes his strike. This Bunshin will hold down Ei long enough for the other one to detonate the explosive tags.
> 
> Tobirama reveals himself sitting in a tree above. Tobirama with low difficulty.



This                     .


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 1, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> But he would have been dead, had he not been Edo.
> He is not an Edo here, so...



Tobirama put multiple tags on Juubito. He only needs one to kill A. If Tobirama could put multiple tags on Juubito, he can certainly put a tag on A and get away.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 1, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama put multiple tags on Juubito. He only needs one to kill A. If Tobirama could put multiple tags on Juubito, he can certainly put a tag on A and get away.



How do you know that will be enough? A did not get any damage from Sasuke's attack
With his sword + chidori!! He also servived the teleporting jutsu which should kill almost
Any human! 

Not to mention in order to do so, tobirama will get hit by A 
And unlike minato, tobirama does not have seals all over the field and he's 
Even slower!


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 1, 2013)

A starting 10 meters from anyone is a problem.

A mortal, unimpressive shunshiner in Tobirama won't be surviving an initial blitz from this distance. 

He's not tagging him with his explosive Jutsu or his FTG without being destroyed in the process. This, all irrelevant to the fact that his body and raiton cloak tanked more impressive variants than anything Tobirama has showcased regardless. That, all irrelevant to the fact that, unlike a mentally challenged arrogant Jubito, he will react fast enough to shunshin away from the ultimate explosion. 

He's tanked:
1. Light Speed in base
2. Killer Bee lariat in base and V1
3. Chidori in V1
4. Amaterasu in V2

He's dodged:
1. Amaterasu in V2 at point blank
2. Juugo Cannons in V2 at point blank

He's blitzed:
1. Madara and his Mokuton Clones
2. Sasuke
3. Killer Bee
4. CS2 Juugo

Now, please explain how a man who has limited shunshin features is going to avoid a blitz by a man who strikes Madara outright and is fast enough to also lay a hand placing a seal on a body that is irradiating with a chakra destroy raiton cloak without dying in the process. Then, please explain how the seal allows him to further damage a man that tanks the energy output of light travel in base without as much as a headache and moves at the speed to avoid an Amaterasu blast in close quarters blindsiding MS Sasuke without effort.

The fact that he has zero knowledge on the Raikage already suggests to me that he'll be outright surprise blitzed and annihilated. 

Tobirama is nothing more than a seal jumper with decent reaction speed who sacrificed his body to be useful as an edo. This is not enough to defeat a top tier shunshiner with notable durability and striking power standing 10m from his face. He sees a flash, then a fist, but unlike Naruto and Minato, his face gets fucking crushed- just like majority of people who would dare challenge A at 10m.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2013)

Killing Ei is incredibly difficult to kill.  

Slamming him around the field with Kisame level suiton he casts as casually as shuriken, is not.  I don't see him having any problems doing that, given he's in or around the same speed league as Minato and Ei and Naruto, so he won't be blitzed to death.  Once he has hiraishin tags down, and kagebunshin, it's even easier.  

I'm also reasonably he could sacrifice a clone to nuke Ei with exploding tags.  However, Ei still might not take much damage from that.  Though it's hirudora sized...  Kenjutsu won't do, but I suppose he could drown him, or sacrifice him to summon an edo tensei.  

Regardless of what regard I hold the Nidaime in, he might not be able to win with his showcased jutsu.  But that's liable to change with more showing, and I do think a man who was able to invent multiple high class jutsus would have something up his sleeve for a defensive beast besides lots of tags.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 1, 2013)

-Tobirama is not around the speed level of Minato, Ei or Naruto. 
-Tobirama doesn't have Kisame-level suitons.
-Tobirama isn't hitting Ei with a sution, thus drowning him. 
-Tobirama isn't utilizing shadow clones to plant explosive tags on a cloak of lightning that would destroy the tags immediately. The clones are dispersed before they even grab the tag to place onto Ei. 

Tobirama isn't the one with options here- he has none. Ei is in his face in less than a second, crushing it. Clones won't help, he's too slow to tag him without dying, and the tags are irrelevant anyway- they're destroyed by the lightning covering his body- you know, the supercharged visual light show where Ei turns himself into a walking lightning bolt. 

The day you succeed putting a piece of paper on a flashing lightning bolt is the day Tobirama becomes god.

The day there's a thread where Tobirama has full knowledge on Ei's abilities is the day Tobirama actually attempts these strategies and ultimately fails anyway. 

That day is not today. The man either blitzes in and receives a handsome face splatter, or he stands there and receives the same from 10m.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 1, 2013)

Everything that Tobirama uses needs prep to use especially Edo Tensai so Edo Tensai is not usable. Raikage kills him easily.. Tobirama got killed off by a platoon of ninja while he can take on 10000.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2013)

I am surprised those in support of tobirama havent  thought of this simple strategy 

Ei rushes in Tobirama uses a KB to block Ei way in this manner. Think of the tobirama KB as obito and sasuke and naruto as Ei 


*Spoiler*: __ 



[3]



Please look at bottom right panel 

 the KB gets its face punched in but not before a hirashin tag has been placed on Ei. 
From there tobirama uses hirashin behind Ei and places the exploding tags on Ei 
then finishes him off with mutually exploding tag jutsu


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 1, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> I am surprised those in support of tobirama havent  thought of this simple strategy
> 
> Ei rushes in Tobirama uses a KB to block Ei way in this manner. Think of the tobirama KB as obito and sasuke and naruto as Ei
> 
> ...


It's been provided by several posters, and countered rather casually by several posters in this thread.

Please, feel free to read my previous posts. There are several reasons why your scenario is both illogical and unsuccessful.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 1, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> How do you know that will be enough? A did not get any damage from Sasuke's attack
> With his sword + chidori!! He also servived the teleporting jutsu which should kill almost
> Any human!
> 
> ...



And why does Tobirama need to get hit? Tobirama put multiple tags on Juubito. He only needs one for A. A is not faster than Tobirama.

Tobirama may not even need seals as he teleported without seals.

Infinite Explosions is killing A. A might survive Chidori, but Infinite Explosions is another level.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 1, 2013)

Why would any high level ninja let Tobirama prep edo tensai and haraishin?


----------



## iJutsu (Aug 1, 2013)

Tobirama doesn't go around tagging his surroundings like Minato does. He will die before he can even react to Ei's speed. Unless Tobirama use Minato as his ET, he's not gonna escape Ei.


----------



## Dominus (Aug 2, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Everything that Tobirama uses needs prep to use especially Edo Tensai so Edo Tensai is not usable. Raikage kills him easily.. Tobirama got killed off by a platoon of ninja while he can take on 10000.



Why would Tobirama need to prepare Edo Tensei when we already know that he reincarnated other shinobi. Tobirama being defeated by the Kinkaku Force tells us nothing about how strong he was, because we don't know how strong they were and we don't know how he was defeated. It was the Sandaime Raikage who fought 10 000 shinobi, and he didn't survive.



Almondsand said:


> Why would any high level ninja let Tobirama prep edo tensai and haraishin?



Tobirama can just send a clone to distract him while he uses Edo Tensei, all that reincarnated shinobi has to do is blow himself up with the Raikage.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 2, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> A starting 10 meters from anyone is a problem.
> 
> A mortal, unimpressive shunshiner in Tobirama won't be surviving an initial blitz from this distance.
> 
> ...



thats the post you wanted me to read?? that somehow counters my post?

why am i in BD?
terrible arguing skills. How does being able to survive mabui technique prevent him from being tagged?? or even show thats its a durability feat? tsunade survived the technique as well with minimum damage mind you. Also wearing a raiton cloak doesnt mean he cannot be touched, killer bee used lariat to smack him to the ground just fine. *while Ei was wearing his cloak, killer bee arm didnt suddenly burn on contact *

Truth is tobirama has shown the reflexes to use a clone to intercept and then proceed with the strategy i suggested. Being able to drop 3 explosive tags and a hirashin seal on the 10 tails Jin is a very decent reflex and speed feat. Minato did after all say tobirama got quick hands. 

Tobirama only proceeded to use his suicide technique because half his body was blown. Tobirama goal there was to hirashin mark juubito. The explosive tags was to distract obito from that fact. The suicide bombing was to proceed with the attack, no point lying in wait when half your body is blown. Might as well use a mutually self destructive attack 

*In the end obito being tagged by tobirama did save minato, sasuke and naruto*

Applying science to kishi's manga is very very illogical and impractical 

ps:
1)  Ei never tanked light speed in base or whatever that means. Tsunade tanked it to with less damage than orochimaru kusanagi gave her
2) He did not tank amaterasu, he lost his arm. That is not tanking, what he did anyone could have done that. Granted with more hesitation and pain but loosing an arm doesnt = tanking a technique
3) Madara and his clones never got blitzed at all (provide a panel if you can)


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Why would any high level ninja let Tobirama prep edo tensai and haraishin?



Juubito let Tobirama prep. Tobirama is out of A's league.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

tobirama doesnt need to prep hirashin 
he can simply just wait for A to come close and tag him 
Tobirama doesnt need edo tensei


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2013)

You know, Minato doesn't start a match with Kunai's everywhere either, so those people saying Tobirama gets blitzed wouldn't be saying the same for Minato based on their reasoning. 

Minato and Tobirama is faster than Raikage and unlike Minato, Tobirama has the firepower to defeat Raikage. The infinite explosion will defeat Raikage, his defense is not like his fathers.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> You know, Minato doesn't start a match with Kunai's everywhere either, so those people saying Tobirama gets blitzed wouldn't be saying the same for Minato based on their reasoning.
> 
> Minato and Tobirama is faster than Raikage and unlike Minato, Tobirama has the firepower to defeat Raikage. The infinite explosion will defeat Raikage, his defense is not like his fathers.



i enjoy your assessment on such issues +reps

tobirama defeats A the same way. Minato doesnt start the match with kunai everywhere all the time

see his current fight took him a bit of time before he decided to spread kunai about the place. 
also note throwing kunai takes just as much time as it would for tobirama to create 1 or 2 clones at which point A just lost the fight


----------



## Yagura (Aug 4, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> You know, Minato doesn't start a match with Kunai's everywhere either,



Well, eh, he kind of does... or at least can. As soon as confrontation begins, Minato can easily have 20+ places to warp to and his range is wherever he can throw a kunai, whereas Tobirama is limited to wherever he can touch. His mobility with Hiraishin seriously lacking.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> so those people saying Tobirama gets blitzed wouldn't be saying the same for Minato based on their reasoning.



The lack of mobility is only partly why. The primary reasoning is that Tobirama hasn't shown reaction time on par with Minato, who just barely reacted to A in the first place. So by what we've seen of Tobirama, he can't avoid a blitz here. 



Kakashi Hatake said:


> The infinite explosion will defeat Raikage



If it can land, of course, which it won't.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 4, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Well, eh, he kind of does... or at least can. As soon as confrontation begins, Minato can easily have 20+ places to warp to and his range is wherever he can throw a kunai, whereas Tobirama is limited to wherever he can touch. His mobility with Hiraishin seriously lacking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



are you saying that someone who placed 5 tags on juubito + a hirashin mark doesnt have the reflexes to perform a KB and touch before Ei gets to him??
I strongly doubt that tobirama has  reflexes on par with minato, however lacks the same hirashin mobility and has a slightly slower shunshin

he however doesnt need to physically move, so his main issue here is circumvented 

tandem tags can hit Ei quite well, after avoiding Ei and appearing behind him, tobirama can use a mizubunshin which when disperse forms the water bubble kisame trapped neji, 1010 and lee in 
then proceed to use tandem explosive tags and the end. 

ps: the water bubble did trap kakashi, yamato, killer bee so i have no reason to believe it cannot trap Ei. Also zabuza suiton usage<<tobirama so no reason to believe he cannot perform a basic suiton jutsu like that


----------



## Bonly (Aug 4, 2013)

This depends whether Tobi can use his edo's to place the tags for Gojō Kibaku Fuda. If it lands then Tobi can win, otherwise it comes down to who can outlast who which I favor A.


----------



## ImSerious (Aug 4, 2013)

Im not sure if Tobirama has the reactions necessary to dodge V2, even with Hiraishin. But even if he can, he hasnt shown anything that can hurt A(like minato's kunai strikes).


A wins.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 4, 2013)

Yagura said:


> If it can land, of course, which it won't.



It landed on Juubito


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Well, eh, he kind of does... or at least can. As soon as confrontation begins, Minato can easily have 20+ places to warp to and his range is wherever he can throw a kunai, whereas Tobirama is limited to wherever he can touch. His mobility with Hiraishin seriously lacking.




The scan your showing is the moment Minato throwing Kunai's around the battlefield while Raikage is standing still. In the previous page we see Minato already has Kunai's on the battlefield. As Raikage spots Minato's kunai on a tree, then they chat for few seconds.

If we are going to compare the same scenario's, then the time Minato got, Tobirama could easily create two Kage Bunshin's. This is the guy who can shorten 40+ seals into one, he can create jutsu's with one finger. 

If you think Tobirama's is getting blitzed before he can use Kage Bunshin then the same can be said about Minato. 

Going by his feats, to say he will get blitzed before he can make clones is absurd, especially when his speed has been hyped by Minato. Jubito is possibly twice as fast as Raikage based on power scale, the fact that Tobirama was able to attach seals on to him speaks volume and it is debatable whether Tobirama could have dodged Jubito attack or not. We find out in the next chapter that Hokage's were putting themselves in danger to find weaknesses because they are Edo's thus taking advantage of their bodies.



> The lack of mobility is only partly why. The primary reasoning is that Tobirama hasn't shown reaction time on par with Minato, who just barely reacted to A in the first place. So by what we've seen of Tobirama, he can't avoid a blitz here.



Tobirama has shown top tier reaction speed. The fact that he was able to think one step ahead by attaching exploding and seal tag on to Jubito speaks volume. He reacted to aggressive Jubito and was able to get the upper hand while getting chopped up in half. Minato on the other hand, was able to get his hand cut off even while using Hirashin. Both reaction speed are comparable, and the hype Tobirama got by Minato also supports my argument.

The mobility issue you arise for Tobirama is wrong. Having kunai's all around the battlefield is not smart, no shinobi with good intelligence will walk over or go anywhere near those Kunai's with seal tag on them. Especially when they see their opponent just throwing bunch of Kunai's all over the battlefield. Minato Hirashin tactic/style is great for war were he can take out an army with it. Tobirama Hirashin method is better for one on one combat. Once Minato throws his Kunai's, he can't move them as the battle rages on. Tobirama method of using clones eliminates this disadvantage, as he can make his clone appear where he wants to teleport. We seen him develop tactics with Edo Tensei and Hirashin (As you can see from the latest chapter of his partner Hirashin jutsu) like a chess game, where one move leads to another. This is Tobirama's style of fighting, very strategic and only someone with high intelligence can avoid getting hit by him. Raikage fights in linear motion, any top tier shinobi's will be able to see through his movements. 



> If it can land, of course, which it won't.



If it landed on Jubito then of course it would land on Raikage. We are talking about someone who is far more stronger and faster than Raikage.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Aug 5, 2013)

a CLONE of Tobirama (which they confirmed to be slower) saved Minato and Sasuke/Naruto from the Juubi Bomb before Minato could even grab it. Minato couldn't even react.

Tobirama has sensing also

He's not getting blitzed.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 5, 2013)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> a CLONE of Tobirama (which they confirmed to be slower) saved Minato and Sasuke/Naruto from the Juubi Bomb before Minato could even grab it. Minato couldn't even react.



Base Bee saved Ration no Yori Ei from Minato. Ei couldn't even react, and Ei's much more reflexive than Bee....

When you aren't the target of an attack, it's simply easier to react to that attack. Minato was reacting anyway, Tobirama just grabbed it before 1-armed Minato did, which makes it an interception feat as we don't really know when Tobirama began moving.


----------



## Alita (Aug 5, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> I doubt speed would be an issue here. I think the issue would be if Tobirama could get through Ei's V2 armor or not.


This. And I personally think he can with that continous explosion tech of his so I'd give it to tobirama more often than not here.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

to all people saying tandem explosive tags isnt enough to harm Ei 
let me ask you is konan 6 billion paper explosive tags enough to kill Ei?
if so, tandem is as well. *I am sure someone will do the math*, but if each tag summons a tag and there are 5. 
And each individual tag summons another tag, 6 billion tags will be achieved pretty quickly. Please remember summoning is very quick, so the time from 5 tags to 2500 tags is next to none.  Also note while the person is being exploded its not like they will have time to run away and escape it. 
so yes i personally believe tandem explosive tags reduce Ei to ash.


----------



## Dominus (Aug 5, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> he hasnt shown anything that can hurt A(like minato's kunai strikes).



Minato's kunai > Gojō Kibaku Fuda? 

Oh, it's ImSerious.


----------



## iJutsu (Aug 5, 2013)

People really shouldn't be using edo feats literally. He has no risk while an edo. Reflex means nothing if it's not gonna hurt him anyway. He can just keep reaching to Juubito without any real consequences.


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 5, 2013)

Yagura said:


> *A vs Tobirama​**Restrictions:* None.
> *Knowledge:* Manga.
> *Battlefield:* A and B vs Minato.
> *Starting Distance:* 10 meters.
> ...



Due to the fact that tobirama does not have the reflexes and physical speed that Minato has, nowhere close and mInato barely was able to react and track raikage's V2 super mode shushin full speed attack, then tobirama would definitely nto and lose for sure...

Even notice that against Edo Madara, that kishi did not let Raikage use V2 super mode because it is too haxxed, only having Rai use V1 with tsuchikage to make him faster, but still not what he would have been with V2 supermode plus tsuchikage...

Plain and simple, A raikage is way too fats in supermode for Tobirama to possibly compete against even with the Hiraishin/FTG becuase he does not have the reflexes/physical speed to use the hiraishin in time to dodge or attack effectively while explosive tags and water jutsu are not going to get through raiotn armour too...

All together, tobirama alive doe snot stand a chance when A is way too fast for him even with the hiraishin/FTG and his explosive atgs and water jutsu will never get through raiton armour that is at a whole oether level in VS super mode then what the 3rd had that tanked a Futton rasengan...

So yea, Raikage>tobirama easily!!!




Icegaze said:


> to all people saying tandem explosive tags isnt enough to harm Ei
> let me ask you is konan 6 billion paper explosive tags enough to kill Ei?
> if so, tandem is as well. *I am sure someone will do the math*, but if each tag summons a tag and there are 5.



Uuum, How is Jutsu with literally 1/30 the power and time of explosion as Konan's going to be compared so that if Konan's 10 Billion 10 minute paper tag could overcome the raiton armour then so could the tobirama version that is literally 1/30 of power and time that Konan's is, could get through the raiton armour as well and beta Raikage?

Konan's 10 billion, 10 minute explosive tag Jutsu>>>>>>Tobirama's Hiraishin consecutive explosive tag Jutsu that by constantly summoning more tags, on three different spots, allows for there to be consecutive Blasts in 3 places for 20 second... So yea... COmpared to explosive tags all around the enemy that explodes for 10 Minutes straight... tobirama's jutsu is nothing compared to Konan's...

And I doubt that since the FRS could nto get through a lower level of raiton armour then what A uses in V2 super mode raiton armour, the Not even Konan;s would get through that level of defense IMO. Thus, the Inconsistent comparison Fallacy argument of konan's explosive tag Jutsu=tobirama's does not really matter...



> And each individual tag summons another tag, 6 billion tags will be achieved pretty quickly. Please remember summoning is very quick, so the time from 5 tags to 2500 tags is next to none.  Also note while the person is being exploded its not like they will have time to run away and escape it.
> so yes i personally believe tandem explosive tags reduce Ei to ash.



How in the hell did you get six billion tags from reverse summoning 3 tags at a time every 1/3 a second for 20 second straight? Clearly not using more then 300 tags in all... Much less 8 billion LMAO...

And how could explosive tags for even 10 Minutes much less 20 seconds get through a levle of raiton armour beyond what tanked the FRS that the 3rd raikage had? Explosive tags are really not that strong at all and only a chidori was able to slightly get through a V1 raiton armour, while V2 is a much hgiher level of defense so there is no way an explosive tag Jutsu is going to get through such a level of raiton armour beyond what the FRS and chidori can get through...


----------

