# [SPOILER 657] Blind Madara vs. A



## Kai (Dec 4, 2013)

Setting: Current battlefield
Distance: 30 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Conditions: Madara in latest chapter. Madara can absorb chakra, but only through his hands and feet. No Mokuton.

Who wins?


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Well Madara stomps. He is a final villain, so none of the comparatively lowly Gokage will ever beat him under fair circumstances. 

Ei is faster and much stronger with his cloak, but Madara can apparently suck it dry with a touch. Madara is very swift himself, so he should be able to outmaneuver Ei using his skill & sensing and grab hold of him. If Ei resists, Madara can just blast him in the mouth with Katon, and try again. Eventually, either Madara will succeed in draining all of Ei's Chakra, or The Raikage will resemble Ghost Rider and be incapable of fighting.

If Madara uses Mokuton, it isn't a debate at all.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 4, 2013)

Madara should win when he still has FTW and Sage Mode now to help his reactions.


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## Kai (Dec 4, 2013)

Edited Mokuton out.


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## Ersa (Dec 4, 2013)

Didn't he blitz SM Naruto? I question if Ei is even faster at this stage, if he is it won't be by much.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

A grabs him, lifts him up, brings him down to his knee and breaks him in half.


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## ueharakk (Dec 4, 2013)

He blitzed by the guy who counterblitzed sandaime raikage.  Madara can fight perfectly well while blind, so combine his speed with a jutsu that blinds Ei + the ability to absorb Ei's shroud and it's a sure win for Madara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> He blitzed by the guy who counterblitzed sandaime raikage.  Madara can fight perfectly well while blind, so combine his speed with a jutsu that blinds Ei + the ability to absorb Ei's shroud and it's a sure win for Madara.



A would blitz SM Naruto just as easily and kill him while doing so.

Even if we assume Madara is as fast as A, which he isn't, A is still alot stronger and alot more durable, and on top of that his skillset is extremely lethal for Madara, more so than Sasuke's sword.

Without seeing the actual capability of Madara's absorbtion in combat I can not give him even the slighest chance against A here.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 4, 2013)

No no no...this cannot be happening.

This is the most lawless display of underestimation of the Raikage I've ever seen.


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## ueharakk (Dec 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A would blitz SM Naruto just as easily and kill him while doing so.


based on.... SM Naruto's clone counterblitzing the equivalent of V1 Ei while running at him?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Even if we assume Madara is as fast as A, which he isn't, A is still alot stronger and alot more durable, and on top of that his skillset is extremely lethal for Madara, more so than Sasuke's sword.
> 
> Without seeing the actual capability of Madara's absorbtion in combat I can not give him even the slighest chance against A here.


So Madara isn't as fast as Ei because..... what?
And Madara casually knocking out tons of alliance members protected by a superior cloak than the one that blocked Tenpen chii makes Ei a lot stronger?

Durability is true due to sasuke's sword, but that's hardly an issue when Madara has similar speed, more than enough strength, and can absorb the very shroud that allows Ei to even move as fast as him.  With a weaker edo body, Madara was already blocking Ei's RnY hits without any damage while being distracted by Mei's lava, with the ability to blind Ei he sucks him and his cloak dry just like nagato did to V2 Bee.


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## Jad (Dec 4, 2013)

Sandaime's foot speed has always been overrated, and his attacking speed also. Dodai showed first signs of this flawed argument when he was able to not only analyze the attack but defend against it. SM Naruto feat is impressive when he countered the Sandaime's attack because he had to hit at the 'exact' point and timing. He could have hit him in Sage Mode any day of the week on any other part of his body without trying to hit exact points at right times (albeit trading blows). Although it would have not been as effective. That's why Madara hitting Naruto into the ground should not be much of a shock to anyone other then those who overrated all his stats. The same point in Ei's attacking speed, with Suigetsu intercepting, Bee intercepting, the Guards responding to his 'swing' on the table at the Kage meet, Juugo reacting in blocking, and also Madara blocking the attack with the Rinnegan - not sharingan.

So Madara should comfortably fight with Ei, in his Raiton-no-yoroi state, although the latter holds a much larger strength advantage. The probably is, if I am to assume Madara is without his Sharingan abilities, would get chopped in half if Ei lands a direct chop instead of concussive forces while _flickering_ at him. However, if Madara hits him with a large Katon, that will demoralize all if not a majority of Ei's chances in winning. Not only would he be burned considerably, the fire on his body will continue to burn, leaving Madara with the option of hitting him again.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 4, 2013)

I'm becoming more and more certain Kishi doesn't care about speed differences anymore, rightfully or not.  Or he simply doesn't care when it comes to Hashirama and Madara because he screams their name in caps lock when his assistants ask what's going on.

Either way Madara probably dances around Raikages hyper sonic rushes, drains his cloak, takes him out in total disregard for his durability.  Like what was going to happen with Minatos magic kunai to Eis back.


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## ueharakk (Dec 4, 2013)

Jad said:


> Sandaime's foot speed has always been overrated, and his attacking speed also. Dodai showed first signs of this flawed argument when he was able to not only analyze the attack but defend against it. SM Naruto feat is impressive when he countered the Sandaime's attack because he had to hit at the 'exact' point and timing. He could have hit him in Sage Mode any day of the week on any other part of his body without trying to hit exact points at right times. Although it would have not been as effective. The same point in Ei's attacking speed, with Suigetsu intercepting, Bee intercepting, the Guards responding to his 'swing' on the table at the Kage meet, and also Madara blocking the attack with the Rinnegan - not sharingan.


Sandaime's speed was directly compared to Ei's V1 speed, so if dodai did any feat against Sandaime raikage, it's an accomplishment for dodai and not a downgrade for the raikage.  



Jad said:


> So Madara should comfortably fight with Ei, in his Raiton-no-yoroi state, although the latter holds a much larger strength advantage. The probably is, if I am to assume Madara is without his Sharingan abilities, would get chopped in half if Ei lands a direct chop instead of concussive forces while _flickering_ at him. However, if Madara hits him with a large Katon, that will demoralize all if not a majority of Ei's chances in winning. Not only would he be burned considerable, the fire on his body will continue to burn him, leaving Madara with the option of hitting him again.


If Ei's shroud offers durability so low that a large katon can significantly damage him, then Madara oneshots him the same way he oneshotted all those shinobi alliance fodders considering they have a more powerful cloak than the one that completely protected them from Madara and Obito's giant katon.


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## crystalblade13 (Dec 4, 2013)

madara dodges, absorbs, and roasts. casually.

do you guys honestly think A has a chance against a guy who's about to take on all the biju's at once?


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## Jad (Dec 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Sandaime's speed was directly compared to Ei's V1 speed, so if dodai did any feat against Sandaime raikage, it's an accomplishment for dodai and not a downgrade for the raikage.



The fact that Dodai could take in just about everything of Sandaimes attack, the speed, the change of his attack style, then right after that form a defensive to block. Someone who by all means is pretty much a fodder, has no sought of accreditation in fighting other opponents or taijutsu ability. It dampens Sandaime's attack.



> If Ei's shroud offers durability so low that a large katon can significantly damage him, then Madara oneshots him the same way he oneshotted all those shinobi alliance fodders considering they have a more powerful cloak than the one that completely protected them from Madara and Obito's giant katon.



I have always been at the front of the marching band saying the shroud on Ei is only good for overpowering other forms of Raiton. So it's Raiton overpowering Raiton, or Raw Chakara, or other Raw based Chakara. Put it this way, anything blue that comes out of a ninja's body. If it's a fist, fire, water, sand, earth, the shroud chakara has nothing to do with it. This is why I have continually seen people like Minato step on the body by passing the shroud, why Bee was adamant about saving his brother from a Kunai strike, why Bee has continually deactivated his brothers shroud on skin on skin pummeling. I have defended Tsunade giving Ei the largest amount of damage because her fist passes the Raiton chakara.


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## Jagger (Dec 4, 2013)

I don't think Madara wins this quite easily. It is true SM Naruto was blitzed and pushed aside by Madara like if he was some kind of kid, but he was never given the chance to use any kind of jutsu.

V2 A is faster than SM Naruto and we all know that. The difference is that he lacks the sage sensing of Naruto, thus, he wouldn't have the same kind of advantage. Then again, we saw nothing about Naruto using his sensing capacities.

Even if Madara absorbs a portion of A's chakra in seconds A's punches can still leave a severe injury or a broken bone.


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## MysteriousD (Dec 4, 2013)

A enters V2 gets his chakra stolen a bit (bijuu level chakra > naruto cloak) then beats Madara with taijutsu

This wont be a short, pretty, or clean fight but A takes this with strength and durability

Ama on his arm meant nothing throughout the Sasuke fight.

The best one could argue is mutually assured destruction. Without eyes Madara cant just rape A

EDIT: A wins with little doubt

A can keep his V2 cloak up and just go pound for pound with Madara. Without Susanno to dampen to amount of damage his blows inflict, he'll take each hit for every bite.

While he can absorb chakra, A's hits are almost all OHKO's or bone breakers.

He can also just say fuck it, grab Madara by his neck str8 up (with consequences of course) and break his neck like Zetsu.

MAD (mutually assured destruction)


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## ueharakk (Dec 4, 2013)

Jad said:


> The fact that Dodai could take in just about everything of Sandaimes attack, the speed, the change of his attack style, then right after that form a defensive to block. *Someone who by all means is pretty much a fodder, has no sought of accreditation in fighting other opponents or taijutsu ability. It dampens Sandaime's attack*.


He did that while in the air and dodai which severely dampens the effectiveness of speed, *he was Sandaime's righthand man*, had total knowledge on him, and conveniently had a defense that's effective against sandaime's attacks thus is why he could defend against his attack.

  We've never seen him use taijutsu or fight other opponents so him not proving himself against others has nothing to do with his abilities in those regards, if his only feats are against sandaime raikage then that's all the information we can base his abilities off of.  Finally, Dodai was probably the most powerful non-kage/naruto on the battlefield as he not only had the kekke genkai that allowed him to defend against sandaime, but he also survived the meteor with pretty much no damage to himself, that's the meteor that killed everyone else and a feat that not even gaara could accomplish.




Jad said:


> I have always been at the front of the marching band saying the shroud on Ei is only good for overpowering other forms of Raiton. So it's Raiton overpowering Raiton, or Raw Chakara, or other Raw based Chakara. Put it this way, anything blue that comes out of a ninja's body. If it's a fist, fire, water, sand, earth, the shroud chakara has nothing to do with it. This is why I have continually seen people like Minato step on the body by passing the shroud, why Bee was adamant about saving his brother from a Kunai strike, why Bee has continually deactivated his brothers shroud on skin on skin pummeling. I have defended Tsunade giving Ei the largest amount of damage because her fist passes the Raiton chakara.


Minato's kunai had ridiculous power behind it and was either aimed at Ei's spine or scalp, it only needs to penetrate an inch into Ei in order to do lethal damage to him.  Ei was touching Madara's susanoo a construct made completely out of chakra with his hand, I also don't see by what mechanics the raiton shroud would only block out raiton or chakra attacks but not physical ones as well.  T


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 4, 2013)

Madara was able to blitz Naruto, who is at least as fast as E.  (I know A>B>C logic tends to be looked down upon, but I think that when comparing a single characteristic--in this case, speed--it can work.)  On top of that, he's shown the ability to absorb ninjutsu, which means that he can negate E's Raiton no Yoroi.  Both his recent skirmish with Sasuke and his ability to put his black rods in Edo Hashirama suggest that he's a powerful combatant in CQC.  

With Madara being able to at least match two of E's three great advantages, and outright nullify the third, I honestly see him being able to win this with fairly low difficulty.


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## MysteriousD (Dec 4, 2013)

The Last Centurion said:


> Madara was able to blitz Naruto, who is at least as fast as E.  (I know A>B>C logic tends to be looked down upon, but I think that when comparing a single characteristic--in this case, speed--it can work.)  On top of that, he's shown the ability to absorb ninjutsu, which means that he can negate E's Raiton no Yoroi.  Both his recent skirmish with Sasuke and his ability to put his black rods in Edo Hashirama suggest that he's a powerful combatant in CQC.
> 
> With Madara being able to at least match two of E's three great advantages, and outright nullify the third, I honestly see him being able to win this with fairly low difficulty.



A can spare some of that chakra to his thefts, its been compared to bijuu levels

All A's attacks V2 are OHKO's (without very durable guard/defense) and even with absorption Madara is getting the whole meal out of each punch

I can literally see A going "fuck it" and just going head up with Madara (him on the defensive)

He's gonna just hit him and keep doing so until Mads is so pummeled his healing factor isnt fast enough.

Then he picks his battered ass up and... 




EDIT: Or he quite simply grabs him by the neck (with dire consequences) and breaks it  

Going that route Mads will kill him with something


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## Rocky (Dec 4, 2013)

Sage Mode Naruto isn't as fast as Ei. Kyuubi Naruto is.


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## Turrin (Dec 4, 2013)

He'd just let Ei hit him, than while that is going on touch Ei absorb Ei's chakra and regenerate. Rinse and repeat until Ei looses.


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## Lurko (Dec 4, 2013)

A might be faster but Sm Naruto's reactions are on the very least on the same level as A and Mads blitzed the fuck out of naruto.


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## Lurko (Dec 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sage Mode Naruto isn't as fast as Ei. Kyuubi Naruto is.



Maybe in movement speed, reaction I doubt... just go ask the third which mode worked better?


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Maybe in movement speed, reaction I doubt... just go ask the third which mode worked better?




The 4th can amp his shroud up to a much higher level than what the 3rd has ever shown.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 5, 2013)

Madara wins. With his new SM powers, he should literally be able to create Hell on Earth with Katons alone. Plus, he can absorb all of Ei's chakra and then what is Ei gonna do? If you think he's blitzing a guy who just took on Hashirama, Naruto and Sasuke, who now has Sage sensing, and is going to take on all of the Bijū at once, I can't help but laugh. If Ei tries, he'll get roasted alive and drained of all of his chakra.

How anyone can think Ei stomps is beyond  me.


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## Lurko (Dec 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The 4th can amp his shroud up to a much higher level than what the 3rd has ever shown.



Yeah but you don't know by how much. . The third raikage was handing kcm naruto his ass if I remember correctly.


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## Lurko (Dec 5, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Madara wins. With his new SM powers, he should literally be able to create Hell on Earth with Katons alone. Plus, he can absorb all of Ei's chakra and then what is Ei gonna do? If you think he's blitzing a guy who just took on Hashirama, Naruto and Sasuke, who now has Sage sensing, and is going to take on all of the Bijū at once, I can't help but laugh. If Ei tries, he'll get roasted alive and drained of all of his chakra.
> 
> How anyone can think Ei stomps is beyond  me.



I agree they think like op faqs from the old days, A so fast that he wins! No not really lol A gets sucked out of his chakra and left for dead.


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Yeah but you don't know by how much. . The third raikage was handing kcm naruto his ass if I remember correctly.




More like Naruto manhandled the 3rd Raikage, in both KCM and Sage Mode.


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## Lurko (Dec 5, 2013)

Alright keep smoking that good shit pal, I'll be back tommorrow gotta sleep.


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## Rocky (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't smoke. However you may have a reading problem if you consider what happened domination on the 3rd's part. Sandaime charged right at a thirteenth of Naruto and ended up on the ground, with his arm through his chest.


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## Coppur (Dec 5, 2013)

Sensing should prevail over the Raikage, and from there Madara absorbs his chakra, or a Senpou-powered katon roasts him.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Why is there no :blindmadara emote yet?

Anyway, if we're assuming Madara can't use Susano'o, then the Raikage rips him in half. That's pretty much all there is to it.


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## Octavian (Dec 5, 2013)

as of right now, the majority will argue that blind madara stomps in a classic knee jerk reaction. given roughly 10-20 more chapters, by which time madara will inevitably be trolled, the same group that presently argue in favor of madara will likely switch their votes to Ei  now, there is no denying that madara with all of his composite powers is vastly superior to Ei but in a pure brawl (which madara's lack of dojutsu here essentially necessitates), madara's chances are minimal. Perhaps madara might be able to react to Ei and evade his attacks, but its hard to argue that madara has any physical attacks that can severely damage Ei who was largely unfazed by both amaterasu and amputation.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Blind Madara got stabbed by Sasuke and people seriously think the Raikage doesn't peel him like an orange?

Fucking lol.

Chakra absorption doesn't mean shit to the guy who moves faster than the eye can see and has amounts of it comparable to a Bijuu's.

A grabs this pompous Sephiroth throwback by his '80s hair and jumps rope with him.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Blind Madara got stabbed by Sasuke and people seriously think the Raikage doesn't peel him like an orange?



You do realize that Madara let him stab his arm so that he could directly feel his Sharingan's Chakra, right? He lifted his arm into the way and grabbed it immediately. He could sense that he was an Uchiha and had movements beyond someone who has a 3 Tomoe.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> You do realize that Madara let him stab his arm so that he could directly feel his Sharingan's Chakra, right? He lifted his arm into the way and grabbed it immediately. He could sense that he was an Uchiha and had movements beyond someone who has a 3 Tomoe.



That's a funny reason to get stabbed.

But hey, I can't say it would surprise me, coming from him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> based on.... SM Naruto's clone counterblitzing the equivalent of V1 Ei while running at him?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.


There is no such thing as counter blitzing.
Sandaime wasn't trying to blitz Naruto either, he simply ran towards him from a huge distance.

And there is a significant gap between V1 A and V2, so I am not sure what this proves.
Sasuke was confortable dealing with V1 A, he outright got blitzed by V2 and he can keep up with current Madara.

SM Naruto gets blitzed.



> So Madara isn't as fast as Ei because..... what?



Why don't you prove that Madara is as fast as A ? 




> And Madara casually knocking out tons of alliance members protected by a superior cloak than the one that blocked Tenpen chii makes Ei a lot stronger?


Yes. Off paneling fodder is not a feat you can use in BD.




> Durability is true due to sasuke's sword, but that's hardly an issue when Madara has similar speed,


A level of speed A easily matches or exceeds.



> more than enough strength,


wut ?



> and can absorb the very shroud that allows Ei to even move as fast as him.


Just because he was able to grab and absorb Hashirama, who was bound already, doesn't mean he can do the same to A.
He tries, and gets killed in the process. A is a much more potent fighter than Sasuke in CQC. He is faster, stronger more durable and his hits are more lethal.



> With a weaker edo body, Madara was already blocking Ei's RnY hits without any damage while being distracted by Mei's lava, with the ability to blind Ei he sucks him and his cloak dry just like nagato did to V2 Bee.


I didn't say he can't block A. But he surely can't tank him.
And if A opts for his piercing and slashing attacks then Madara can't block him either.

And the difference between Nagato and Madara in this scenario is that Madara can only suck chakra through his hands and feet. He can't afford to get hit and then absorb like Nagato did.



Turrin said:


> He'd just let Ei hit him,



End of fight GG.


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## rubberguy (Dec 5, 2013)

Ay let his chakra got absorbed then proceed to liger bomb.


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## Lurko (Dec 5, 2013)

Sooooo much A wank here, lets put it this way do you guys think A would blitz Sm Naruto?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Sooooo much A wank here, lets put it this way do you guys think A would blitz Sm Naruto?



Yeah, because he would.

Sage Naruto could react to A's initial direct-line charge from a good distance, but the problem is that A has much better reaction time and can course-correct faster than Naruto can physically respond.

So A blitzes, Naruto senses it coming and moves out of the general path, and then the Raikage turns and rips his face off with an Iron Claw.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sage Naruto could react to A's initial direct-line charge from a good distance, but the problem is that A has much better reaction time and can course-correct faster than Naruto can physically respond.


What do you base that on?


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no such thing as counter blitzing.
> Sandaime wasn't trying to blitz Naruto either, he simply ran towards him from a huge distance.


Counterblitzing = countering someone with a blitz.  SM Naruto blitzed sandaime by counterattacking him.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And there is a significant gap between V1 A and V2, so I am not sure what this proves.
> Sasuke was confortable dealing with V1 A, he outright got blitzed by V2 and he can keep up with current Madara.
> 
> SM Naruto gets blitzed.


Sasuke only got blitzed by V2 Ei because Ei shunshined out of Sasuke's LoS so that Sasuke's sharingan precog wouldn't help him when Ei actually went on the offensive.  Naruto doesn't have that problem, he knows exactly where Ei is all the time.  Sasuke can keep up with current Madara because he has the EMS the thing that allows him to track a guy who makes V2 Ei look slow.  So no, SM Naruto doesn't get blitzed.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why don't you prove that Madara is as fast as A ?


You are the one making that assertion, thus you have the burden of proof to do so.  My argument for why he is is because he was able to blitz by SM Naruto while Naruto is fast and reflexive enough to counterblitz Sandaime raikage.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes. Off paneling fodder is not a feat you can use in BD.


Concession accepted as I've thoroughly explained exactly how durable those fodders are and how thus why defeating them would be a strength feat for Madara thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> A level of speed A easily matches or exceeds.
> 
> wut ?
> 
> ...


He's using preta path, he does to Ei what nagato did to bee.  Doesn't matter if Ei has those advantages over sasuke if Ei's RnY is gone and his chakra gets leached.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say he can't block A. But he surely can't tank him.
> And if A opts for his piercing and slashing attacks then Madara can't block him either.


Why can't madara block a piercing attack?  All of Ei's attacks have piercing properties hence why even his punch pierces juugo's Cs2 flesh.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And the difference between Nagato and Madara in this scenario is that Madara can only suck chakra through his hands and feet. He can't afford to get hit and then absorb like Nagato did.
> .


I'm not talking about him getting hit and then absorbing, I'm talking about him absorbing quick enough to rip Ei's chakra cloak off of him in an instant.


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## Krippy (Dec 5, 2013)

Lol what the fuck is this. Madara gets manhandled. Does Madara even have SM here? He gets blitzed either way, don't see how Madara will react and outmaneuver his max speed when he got shanked by Sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Counterblitzing = countering someone with a blitz.  SM Naruto blitzed sandaime by counterattacking him.





Counter attacking =/= blitz

Where do you guys come up with stuff like that ?




> Sasuke only got blitzed by V2 Ei because Ei shunshined out of Sasuke's LoS so that Sasuke's sharingan precog wouldn't help him when Ei actually went on the offensive.  Naruto doesn't have that problem, he knows exactly where Ei is all the time.  Sasuke can keep up with current Madara because he has the EMS the thing that allows him to track a guy who makes V2 Ei look slow.  So no, SM Naruto doesn't get blitzed.



That doesn't change anything.
We've been here before. Lee vs Sasuke example. Even if Naruto can track Ei via sensing, his body is nowhere fast enough to react to him.
Same thing that happened to Sasuke happens to him. A moves behind Naruto, Naruto doesn't have a jutsu that covers him from all sides which can be activated by a mere thought, so he dies.




> You are the one making that assertion, thus you have the burden of proof to do so.  My argument for why he is is because he was able to blitz by SM Naruto while Naruto is fast and reflexive enough to counterblitz Sandaime raikage.


 Lets get something straight.
I am making no assertions here. *You are claiming  that Madara is as fast as V2 A.*
Now go ahead and prove it.

And no, blitzing Naruto doesn't show someone is as fast as V2 A because that is not the mininmum amount of speed that is required to blitz Naruto.




> Concession accepted as I've thoroughly explained exactly how durable those fodders are and how thus why defeating them would be a strength feat for Madara thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.


Well I don't care what you take a as a concession or not.
Any named shinobi could defeat those fodder off panel and noone would question how they did it.





> He's using preta path, he does to Ei what nagato did to bee.  Doesn't matter if Ei has those advantages over sasuke if Ei's RnY is gone and his chakra gets leached.


We don't know if he is using preta path or not.

And like I explained below, Madara can't do to A what Nagato did to B here. Because preta's absorbtion is a barrier that radiates from Nagato's whole body.
Madara needs to grab Ei and absorb his chakra.




> Why can't madara block a piercing attack?  All of Ei's attacks have piercing properties hence why even his punch pierces juugo's Cs2 flesh.


His punches aren't as piercing as his chops. 
Let me put it this way.
Sasuke's chidori induced sword bounced off A's neck.
A karate chopped his own arm.
He basically chops Madara in half, as easily as a hot knife would go through butter.



> I'm not talking about him getting hit and then absorbing, I'm talking about him absorbing quick enough to rip Ei's chakra cloak off of him in an instant.



He is neither quick enough nor strong enough to do that.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Counter attacking =/= blitz
> 
> Where do you guys come up with stuff like that ?


That's like saying attack =/= blitz.  The terms are not mutually exclusive, blitzing is simply hitting your opponent before they can physically react, it's simply harder to mentally react to things while you are attacking someone at high speeds rather than having them come to you, which is why I make it a point to add 'counter' before the 'blitz' to make the distinction.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> That doesn't change anything.
> We've been here before. Lee vs Sasuke example. *Even if Naruto can track Ei via sensing, his body is nowhere fast enough to react to him.*
> Same thing that happened to Sasuke happens to him. A moves behind Naruto, Naruto doesn't have a jutsu that covers him from all sides which can be activated by a mere thought, so he dies.


The bolded is an assertion that you have to back up with some form of evidence.  Sasuke doesn't even know where Ei is, Naruto does in addition to having his sage precognition helping him to react to Ei's speed while sasuke doesn't, thus he has more time and reflexes to react physically to Ei's attack.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lets get something straight.
> I am making no assertions here. *You are claiming  that Madara is as fast as V2 A.*
> Now go ahead and prove it.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Even if we assume Madara is as fast as A, which he isn't,


That's you blatantly asserting that Ei is faster than madara, thus you have to back it up with an argument.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> And no, blitzing Naruto doesn't show someone is as fast as *V2 A because that is not the mininmum amount of speed that is required to blitz Naruto.*


The bolded is an assertions, please back that assertion up with an argument




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well I don't care what you take a as a concession or not.
> Any named shinobi could defeat those fodder off panel and noone would question how they did it.


Well since the this doesn't have anything to do with my argument then you concede then that Madara has the physical strength to keep up with Ei.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> We don't know if he is using preta path or not.
> 
> And like I explained below, Madara can't do to A what Nagato did to B here. Because preta's absorbtion is a barrier that radiates from Nagato's whole body.
> Madara needs to grab Ei and absorb his chakra.


If not preta path, what does madara have in his arsenal that can absorb chakra and amaterasu by touch?  Again I already explained how the barrier around his body is besides the point.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> His punches aren't as piercing as his chops.
> Let me put it this way.
> Sasuke's chidori induced sword bounced off A's neck.
> A karate chopped his own arm.
> He basically chops Madara in half, as easily as a hot knife would go through butter.


Raiton kusanagi was deflected by Ei's RnY.  Ei's arm was not protected by RnY when he chopped it.  Also, Madara even as an edo tensei took zero damage from blocking Ei's punch.


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## Jagger (Dec 5, 2013)

The Last Centurion said:


> Madara was able to blitz Naruto, who is at least as fast as E.  (I know A>B>C logic tends to be looked down upon, but I think that when comparing a single characteristic--in this case, speed--it can work.)  On top of that, he's shown the ability to absorb ninjutsu, which means that he can negate E's Raiton no Yoroi.  Both his recent skirmish with Sasuke and his ability to put his black rods in Edo Hashirama suggest that he's a powerful combatant in CQC.


Unfortunely for your argument, A is faster than SM Naruto, so Madara doesn't have the advantage in such area. Of course, I am not saying A can speedblizt him, but Madara will have too much of a hard time keeping up with V2 A's speed. 

Madara can absorb ninjutsu, that's true. But A's levels of chakra and the amount of it he can release in one instant might be too much for Madara to absorb in seconds. It took seconds for Nagato absorb V2 Bee's chakra cloak and there's nothing that implies Madara's will do much better.



> With Madara being able to at least match two of E's three great advantages, and outright nullify the third, I honestly see him being able to win this with fairly low difficulty.


A mauls him.


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## Master Sephiroth (Dec 5, 2013)

SM Naruto's evade and counter feats are approximately the same as MS Sasuke's because they both did the same thing to people with approximately the same speed (honestly, I would argue that A in V1 may be slightly faster based on how he pressured KM Naruto better than Beastkage regardless of intent on Naruto's part). That means by feats, A in V2 can escape Naruto's sight/reactions with his Shunshin. But then Sasuke was able to react and use Enton on a curved Shunshin. So Naruto would be able to sense him behind at that same moment. 

Assuming Madara's SM reactions are better than Naruto and Sasuke's, he should be able to react to any bit of speed that A has.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That's like saying attack =/= blitz.  The terms are not mutually exclusive, blitzing is simply hitting your opponent before they can physically react, it's simply harder to mentally react to things while you are attacking someone at high speeds rather than having them come to you, which is why I make it a point to add 'counter' before the 'blitz' to make the distinction.


Oh buddy, you got the definition all wrong.

Counter attack is not a blitz. Counter attack is a strategy, which relies on perfect timing.

You wait for your opponent to strike and as you either dodge or block the blow, you strike before your opponent recovers from his attack. And unless there is a massive speed or skill difference betweeon you two, you most likely land the blow if you can time it right.

Not being able to react doesn't mean you are "blitzed."
If someone comes behind you and hits your head with a stick, that doesn't mean you are blitzed.
If you try to punch someone and they move to the side as they strike you back, that doesn't mean you are blitzed.

What naruto did was a counter attack. He explained what he did.
He switched to sage mode, he waited for Sandaime to attack, and in the last second he moved out of the way and delivered his rasengan. Sage mode was required to time it precisely so that Sandaime wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
When the arrow leaves t he bow, there is nothing you can do about it.
That was the exact situation Sandaime was in.

That didn't require Naruto to be faster or even equally fast as Sandaime raikage. 

Are you suggesting that people with equal or comparable speed can never hit each other ? Or when they hit one another does that mean they are blitzing one another ? 

Speed blitz is basically doing something so fast that your opponents speed(mental or physical) is not enough to keep up with it. It doesn't count if there is trickery involved, or if your opponent is already in no condition to react, like they are preoccupied or something.





> The bolded is an assertion that you have to back up with some form of evidence.  Sasuke doesn't even know where Ei is, Naruto does in addition to having his sage precognition helping him to react to Ei's speed while sasuke doesn't, thus he has more time and reflexes to react physically to Ei's attack.


Look, there is something you need to understand here.
You can't ask people to prove negatives.

But hey, you are confident that I am wrong and you are probably basing this off on the manga. So why don't you show me scans of Naruto having the body speed of reacting to someone as fast as A ? Or any proof that he can ? 




> That's you blatantly asserting that Ei is faster than madara, thus you have to back it up with an argument.


Again, you are on the wrong track.
You believe that Madara is as fast as A right ? So why don't you prove your point ? 
I can't prove a negative because it doesn't exist, we both know that.



> The bolded is an assertions, please back that assertion up with an argument



Because there is a significant leap in between A's V1 and V2, and we don't have the  exact numbers. So anyone in between V1 and V2 might also have a chance to blitz Naruto.






> Well since the this doesn't have anything to do with my argument then you concede then that Madara has the physical strength to keep up with Ei.



Like I said, you can take that as a concession, but there is no evidence that Madara is even close th A's ballpark in regards to strength, and off paneling some fodder surely doesn't indicate anything like it.




> If not preta path, what does madara have in his arsenal that can absorb chakra and amaterasu by touch?  Again I already explained how the barrier around his body is besides the point.



I don't know. 

But don't you find it fishy that Hashirama was somehow surprised about it ? He knows about Preta's absorbtion. And Madara doesn't have the R0innegan.

If it was blatantly preta path I don't think it would be highlighted. Because it was already highlighted a million times.



> Raiton kusanagi was deflected by Ei's RnY.  Ei's arm was not protected by RnY when he chopped it.  Also, Madara even as an edo tensei took zero damage from blocking Ei's punch.



Yeah you'r right. Still though, Madara has 0 durability feats.

And like I said, a chop is like a slash while punch is a blunt damage. 
There is a reason why he didn't punch his hand but chopped it instead.
Blocking a punch and blocking a chop are two different things in A's case, even though they both have penetrating properties due to Raiton Armor.


----------



## Lurko (Dec 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, because he would.
> 
> Sage Naruto could react to A's initial direct-line charge from a good distance, but the problem is that A has much better reaction time and can course-correct faster than Naruto can physically respond.
> 
> So A blitzes, Naruto senses it coming and moves out of the general path, and then the Raikage turns and rips his face off with an Iron Claw.



Alright time for me to leave.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh buddy, you got the definition all wrong.
> 
> Counter attack is not a blitz. Counter attack is a strategy, which relies on perfect timing.
> 
> ...


1) if hitting an opponent before they can react isn't considered a blitz, then what exactly is a blitz?
2) Never said naruto was as fast as sandaime raikage, I've always argued the opposite
3) arrow leaving a bow has nothing to do with sandaime raikage and his nukite as his 'arrow' is still attached to his body and had he been able to perceive naruto's movements, he would have been able to course correct.  So no, it's more like a spear and a glove rather than an arrow and a bow.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you suggesting that people with equal or comparable speed can never hit each other ? Or when they hit one another does that mean they are blitzing one another ?


If the other person is unable to react to them, then yes they have blitzed the other and Sasuke at VoTe is conclusive proof that the physically slower person can blitz the much faster one if they have some form of super reactions or precog.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Speed blitz is basically doing something so fast that your opponents speed(mental or physical) is not enough to keep up with it. It doesn't count if there is trickery involved, or if your opponent is already in no condition to react, like they are preoccupied or something.


Not talking about a speed blitz, i'm just talking about a blitz.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Look, there is something you need to understand here.
> You can't ask people to prove negatives.


Look, there is something that you need to understand here.  If you assert the negative of my stance as true, then it's no longer just a negative, you are making a positive claim to knowledge and thus you have a burden of proof to show why that your claim is true.

The argument fallacy that you are falsely accusing me of is saying "prove me wrong, if you can't then I am right" which is obviously not what I am postulating as you have made positive claims to knowledge and I have backed up my positive claims with arguments.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But hey, you are confident that I am wrong and you are probably basing this off on the manga. So why don't you show me scans of Naruto having the body speed of reacting to someone as fast as A ? Or any proof that he can ?


I've already given you those arguments.  Now by your same burden of proof you subject my arguments with: do you have any proof that Naruto DOESN'T have the body speed of reacting to someone as fast as Ei?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, you are on the wrong track.
> You believe that Madara is as fast as A right ? So why don't you prove your point ?
> I can't prove a negative because it doesn't exist, we both know that.


 

Do you even know what a negative is?  The negative is simply the opposite to whatever is being asserted.  Thus if you assert that Ei is faster than madara, the negative would be that Ei ISN'T faster than madara.  You believe Ei isn't faster than Madara right?  So why don't you prove your point.  

If you are asserting the negative of my argument as true, then you have a burden of proof to back up your positive assertion with some form of argumentation.  And guess what? If I don't have any arguments for my positive assertion, does that mean that the negative is true?  Obviously not.  IF I argue that there's juice in an unlabeled container and I give you zero arguments to back up my positive assertion, then does that mean you conclude that there in fact ISN'T any juice in the container?  Obviously not, the conclusion we reach based on the information is that we simply don't know if there is or not.  The only way you'd conclude that there isn't juice in the can is if you give some positive arguments for that assertion.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because there is a significant leap in between A's V1 and V2, and we don't have the  exact numbers. So anyone in between V1 and V2 might also have a chance to blitz Naruto.


That's not a positive argument for the assertion, the only thing we'd conclude from that is 'we don't know' if he could blitz naruto as the leap could still be within Naruto's physical reaction range.







Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, you can take that as a concession, but there is no evidence that Madara is even close th A's ballpark in regards to strength, *and off paneling some fodder surely doesn't indicate anything like it.*


Then I do accept your concession as the initial post that you responded to completely refutes what you just typed and thus you would be guilty of ignoring my arguments.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know.
> 
> But don't you find it fishy that Hashirama was somehow surprised about it ? He knows about Preta's absorbtion. And Madara doesn't have the R0innegan.
> 
> If it was blatantly preta path I don't think it would be highlighted. Because it was already highlighted a million times.


The whole reason hashirama was surprised was that he could use preta path without the rinnegan, I thought that that was pretty obvious.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah you'r right. Still though, *Madara has 0 durability feats.*
> 
> And like I said, a chop is like a slash while punch is a blunt damage.
> There is a reason why he didn't punch his hand but chopped it instead.
> Blocking a punch and blocking a chop are two different things in A's case, even though they both have penetrating properties due to Raiton Armor.


Bolded is flat out false as Madara with his weaker edo body blocking Ei's punch without damage is easily a durability feat for him when Cs2 Juugo's armored shield gets a hole in it.  Sure blocking a chop is going to be more damaging that blocking a punch, doesn't mean it will considering madara's arm should have logically gotten a hole in it from Ei's punch.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 5, 2013)

> And unless there is a massive speed or skill difference betweeon you two, you most likely land the blow if you can time it right.



I do boxing, and trust me when I say that it isn't just about 'timing your attack'. A counterattack is, literally, a split-second reaction based on hours of training: as soon as you see a cross coming your way, you - by association - drop your weight and throw an uppercut. You barely even process the events consciously.

You have to be _at least_ as fast as your opponent to perform a successful counterattack, if not faster.

Edit: allow me to correct myself. You _can_ land the counterattack, even being slower, but the speed gap really has to be quite minimal.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> What do you base that on?



Sage Naruto being physically comparable to guys like Sasuke and Kakashi, and also having reaction time comparable to what their Sharingan affords them, and the Raikage being able to make that level of speed look frozen in time.

A dodged Sasuke's sight; Sauce only survived because he had Susano'o protecting him from all directions. Naruto doesn't have Susano'o, so he's screwed.



Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Alright time for me to leave.



You will be missed.


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sage Naruto being physically comparable to guys like Sasuke and Kakashi, and also having reaction time comparable to what their Sharingan affords them, and the Raikage being able to make that level of speed look frozen in time.
> 
> A dodged Sasuke's sight; Sauce only survived because he had Susano'o protecting him from all directions. Naruto doesn't have Susano'o, so he's screwed.


Not only is SM Naruto significantly faster than at least Kakashi, Sasuke's and Kakashi's sharingan precognition doesn't extend all around him like Naruto's SM sensing does. Had Ei attacked from within his LoS, sasuke would have been more than capable of putting up a last minute guard for the attack considering he's able to dodge and strike V1 Ei with chidori before the later can react.  So that's what Naruto does, he always knows where Ei is and thus his 'sharingan-level' reactions still apply regardless if Ei shunshins out of sight, to which he blocks.

why do you think Sasuke told karin to keep an eye out for V1 bee's location?  Because even though he has no problems tracking Bee, the sharingan doesn't work on what he can't see.  Same is why Naruto was able to save Kakashi from getting jellypasted by the juubi's tail all before kakashi even knew what was happening.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 5, 2013)

Blind Madara seemed pretty confident he could forcibly take EMS sasuke's eyes as a substitute until his rinnegan came back.

So blind madara's been depicted as powerful,  at least strong enough to overpower ems sasuke whom is magnitudes stronger than Ei.

I don't think Madara's as fast as Ei, but he doesn't need to be faster to beat Ei.

If its nothing but a fist fight though and everything else is restricted Madara probably loses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> 1) if hitting an opponent before they can react isn't considered a blitz, then what exactly is a blitz?
> 2) Never said naruto was as fast as sandaime raikage, I've always argued the opposite
> 3) arrow leaving a bow has nothing to do with sandaime raikage and his nukite as his 'arrow' is still attached to his body and had he been able to perceive naruto's movements, he would have been able to course correct.  So no, it's more like a spear and a glove rather than an arrow and a bow.
> 
> ...



Dude you and I will never agree on anything and this argument has become circular already. 
Obviously we percieve this manga in completely different ways. 
Take that as a concession or what not I am just too lazy to repeat everything I already said once again.





fior fior said:


> I do boxing, and trust me when I say that it isn't just about 'timing your attack'. A counterattack is, literally, a split-second reaction based on hours of training: as soon as you see a cross coming your way, you - by association - drop your weight and throw an uppercut. You barely even process the events consciously.
> 
> You have to be _at least_ as fast as your opponent to perform a successful counterattack, if not faster.
> 
> Edit: allow me to correct myself. You _can_ land the counterattack, even being slower, but the speed gap really has to be quite minimal.



Which is pretty much what I was trying to say.

Unless there is a big speed(or skill) difference, landing a counter attack should be possible, especially against a charge attack(which is basically a full body motion) which is hard to recover from.
And there is magical stuff like Sage Sensing and all which we really can't attribute to real life... Well maybe "instincts" can replace it.

But anyways, my point is, what Naruto did to Sandaime Raikage wasn't a speed blitz but rather a well timed counter attack.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Not only is SM Naruto significantly faster than at least Kakashi, Sasuke's and Kakashi's sharingan precognition doesn't extend all around him like Naruto's SM sensing does. Had Ei attacked from within his LoS, sasuke would have been more than capable of putting up a last minute guard for the attack considering he's able to dodge and strike V1 Ei with chidori before the later can react.  So that's what Naruto does, he always knows where Ei is and thus his 'sharingan-level' reactions still apply regardless if Ei shunshins out of sight, to which he blocks.
> 
> why do you think Sasuke told karin to keep an eye out for V1 bee's location?  Because even though he has no problems tracking Bee, the sharingan doesn't work on what he can't see.  Same is why Naruto was able to save Kakashi from getting jellypasted by the juubi's tail all before kakashi even knew what was happening.



The obvious problem being that if Naruto's eyes can't even keep up with the Raikage, there's no way he's going to be able to physically turn his entire body around to intercept the Raikage.

And I'm gonna go ahead and maintain what I said about Sage Naruto being no faster than Kakashi or Sasuke, with the amendment that Shunshin is a possible exception.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude you and I will never agree on anything and this argument has become circular already.
> Obviously we percieve this manga in completely different ways.


brotherin the issue here is not even the manga, its straight up logic and reasoning.  It's imperative that you read what I typed about the whole 'negatives' and burden of proof because I'm sure that on that issue you are dead wrong.  And for that reason I don't think we've gotten to the point where the only difference would be how we view a feat or our personal arbitrary measurements.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Take that as a concession or what not I am just too lazy to repeat everything I already said once


in this case it's not a concession on your part as you aren't continuing the argument nor are you asserting a point that simply ignores my arguments like you were doing on that one point.  Asking to agree to disagree isn't a concession ever.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The obvious problem being that if Naruto's eyes can't even keep up with the Raikage, there's no way he's going to be able to physically turn his entire body around to intercept the Raikage.


Sasuke's eyes kept up fine, he couldn't turn his head fast enough.  Also, just because your eyes can't track an object moving perpendicular to you doesn't mean that you can't physically react to that object coming at you, Minato for instance was able to perform the physical movement to throw his kunai in the air within the time it took ei to travel 5 inches.  edo madara was able to *put up a guard in a worse situation.*  With his sage sensing, Naruto knows where Ei is at all times and has much more than a 5 inch window to raise his arms and block Ei's punch.




Nikushimi said:


> And I'm gonna go ahead and maintain what I said about Sage Naruto being no faster than Kakashi or Sasuke, with the amendment that Shunshin is a possible exception.


Kakashi and Naruto's performance against Deva path easily puts Naruto as the faster of the two.


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## Jad (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm sort of confused, what speed are you saying Naruto in sage mode can dodge without tracking them via line of sight, but rather sensing? Raikage's flicker speed or basic Raiton no yoroi attacks?


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Never said naruto dodges any of Eis attacks, and it's Ei's fastest punch.


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## Jad (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Never said naruto dodges any of Eis attacks, and it's Ei's fastest punch.



If it isn't dodging, you mean to say Naruto in sage mode without using his line of sight, can counter Ei's fastest movement and attack?


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> If it isn't dodging, you mean to say Naruto in sage mode without using his line of sight, can counter Ei's fastest movement and attack?


is the only alternative to dodging countering?


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## Jad (Dec 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> is the only alternative to dodging countering?



I only skimmed your large posts, so I have no idea if you were saying dodging, blocking, locking Ei's hand for a grapple, or yes, countering. But I am guessing you mean countering like he did to Sandaime.

So that is something I disagree on if you mean to say Sage Mode Naruto can counter Ei's max speed, because he could not even form a proper guard to block and maintain his balance against Madara. Hence the reason he spit out "GUAH!".


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> I only skimmed your large posts, so I have no idea if you were saying dodging, blocking, locking Ei's hand for a grapple, or yes, countering. But I am guessing you mean countering like he did to Sandaime.


I mean block as in what Deva did to SM NAruto, what Madara did to Ei.



Jad said:


> So that is something I disagree on if you mean to say Sage Mode Naruto can counter Ei's max speed, because he could not even form a proper guard to block and maintain his balance against Madara. Hence the reason he spit out "GUAH!".


if madara did that then he's faster than Ei, but in actuality Naruto did block the attack as his arms are up, and *I'm sure you'd agree that merely shouting after an attack doesn't mean you didn't block it.*


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## Lurko (Dec 5, 2013)

First time I think I've agreed with you lol.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 5, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Blind Madara seemed pretty confident he could forcibly take EMS sasuke's eyes as a substitute until his rinnegan came back.
> 
> So blind madara's been depicted as powerful,  at least strong enough to overpower ems sasuke whom is magnitudes stronger than Ei.
> 
> ...


A>B>C>D logic doesn't always work, buddy. As you can read in the descriptions of this thread, Madara lacks Mokuton usage which is his greatest advantage against the Shinobi Alliance currently in the canonical chapters.

He lacks that here, thus, why he loses. Maybe he can react to A's maximum speed, but I believe he would still lose. Even if he's capable of absorbing chakra, the impact of the punch is still there. A clean hit to the neck can end with Madara's life despite his sennin enhacement.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Sasuke's eyes kept up fine, he couldn't turn his head fast enough.



Based on the apparent after-image of the Raikage, I have doubts about that.



> Also, just because your eyes can't track an object moving perpendicular to you doesn't mean that you can't physically react to that object coming at you, Minato for instance was able to perform the physical movement to throw his kunai in the air within the time it took ei to travel 5 inches.



That's unclear, actually; it could just be Kishimoto's inconsistent artwork that the reader is trying to rationally compensate for with that explanation.

Beside that, Minato was reacting to a direct blitz, which I acknowledged that Naruto could also react to; the significant difference between them is that Minato could teleport away before A skinned him alive. It really didn't look like Minato had the time to dodge the Raikage physically, though.



> edo madara was able to *put up a guard in a worse situation.*



Again, not dodging.



> With his sage sensing, Naruto knows where Ei is at all times and has much more than a 5 inch window to raise his arms and block Ei's punch.



That's why he can react when A is coming at him from 10m away, but not when A decides to turn around and elbow his head to a fine pink mist.



> Kakashi and Naruto's performance against Deva path easily puts Naruto as the faster of the two.



I don't understand how you reached that conclusion, given that Tendou was able to physically block Sage Naruto's kick (despite being thrown back by it) and dodge his thrown FRS when it was like an inch from hitting him. Tendou and Kakashi were pretty even.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Based on the apparent after-image of the Raikage, I have doubts about that.


I don't have my doubts due to Sasuke turning his head to face the direction Ei shunshined.




Nikushimi said:


> That's unclear, actually; it could just be Kishimoto's inconsistent artwork that the reader is trying to rationally compensate for with that explanation.


By that logic pretty much anything that ever happens in the manga could be disqualified by 'kishi's inconsistent artwork'.  The scan made it clear that minato had not begun to throw his kunai, his arm is in the same position it was before Ei shunshined at him, thus he had to have done that motion to throw it before Ei's fist traveled 5 inches.



Nikushimi said:


> Beside that, Minato was reacting to a direct blitz, which I acknowledged that Naruto could also react to; the significant difference between them is that Minato could teleport away before A skinned him alive. It really didn't look like Minato had the time to dodge the Raikage physically, though.


No one's arguing that SM Naruto dodges Ei's fastest punch which was stated to be undodgeable unless you are KCM Naruto or Minato.  However, I am saying that Naruto can put up a guard against that punch and block it instead of taking it to the face or body, a feat much easier to accomplish than dodging.




Nikushimi said:


> That's why he can react when A is coming at him from 10m away, but not when A decides to turn around and elbow his head to a fine pink mist.


When has Ei shown the ability to do fine movements like that while moving at his max speed or even his V1 speed?  If he had that kind of capability, he wouldn't have gotten counterblitzed by Sasuke, he'd have noticed sasuke dodged and changed the course of his attack to hit sasuke.




Nikushimi said:


> I don't understand how you reached that conclusion, given that Tendou was able to physically block Sage Naruto's kick (despite being thrown back by it) and dodge his thrown FRS when it was like an inch from hitting him. Tendou and Kakashi were pretty even.


It's because Tendou was able to dodge Kakashi's raikiri, and he later *got fodderized in taijutsu* which requires either greater speed or greater reactions on naruto's part.  

I don't see how dodging FRS puts him on the same level of speed as SM Naruto unless Naruto'd only be able to dodge FRS like him.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 6, 2013)

In terms of basic foot speed, the trio of SM Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi are equals.

In terms of Shunshin speed, SM Naruto blows both Sasuke and Kakashi out of the water.

In terms of reflexes, Sasuke blows both SM Naruto and Kakashi out of the water.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> brotherin the issue here is not even the manga, its straight up logic and reasoning.  It's imperative that you read what I typed about the whole 'negatives' and burden of proof because I'm sure that on that issue you are dead wrong.  And for that reason I don't think we've gotten to the point where the only difference would be how we view a feat or our personal arbitrary measurements.
> 
> 
> 
> in this case it's not a concession on your part as you aren't continuing the argument nor are you asserting a point that simply ignores my arguments like you were doing on that one point.  Asking to agree to disagree isn't a concession ever.



But didn't you first assert that Madara is as fast as Raikage in the first place ? 

And I already gave you my argument regarding the subject in one of my previous posts. 

As far as I understand your only argument here is that Madara should be at least as fast as Raikage as he was able to speed blitz SM Naruto. *I just don't think it is good enough, for the sole fact that we actually don't know if the minimum requirement to speed blitz Naruto is Raikage's max speed.*



ueharakk said:


> I don't have my doubts due to Sasuke turning his head to face the direction Ei shunshined.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato didn't throw his kunai...

The whole A vs Minato thing is made to show that Minato was able to evade him by a hairs breadth.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> In terms of Shunshin speed, SM Naruto blows both Sasuke and Kakashi out of the water.



I wish we were shown those shunshin feats tho


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But didn't you first assert that Madara is as fast as Raikage in the first place ?
> 
> And I already gave you my argument regarding the subject in one of my previous posts.


You never gave an argument as to how the Raikage was faster than Madara, you just told me that I needed to prove he was faster.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> As far as I understand your only argument here is that Madara should be at least as fast as Raikage as he was able to speed blitz SM Naruto. *I just don't think it is good enough, for the sole fact that we actually don't know if the minimum requirement to speed blitz Naruto is Raikage's max speed.*


Based on Naruto's ability to counterblitz Sandaime who's comparable to V1 Ei, if V2 to Ei can actually pull off a frontal blitz against Naruto before Naruto can put up a guard, then he's not just a tier faster than he is in V1, he's several tiers.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato didn't throw his kunai...


He had to since the kunai appears right next to Ei's head despite minato holding it in his right hand next to his knees before.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The whole A vs Minato thing is made to show that Minato was able to evade him by a hairs breadth.


No, the whole Ei vs Minato thing was made to show Minato evaded Ei, the only reason he waited to the last moment to evade was the same reason he waited to the last moment to evade Obito, Naruto waited till the last moment to evade Sandaime so that they could pull off a counterblitz.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Dec 6, 2013)

Honestly, if we compare the feats between SM Naruto and MS Sasuke, Madara and A in V2 should be close in speed (I've been telling you guys that Madara and Hashirama were fast). Which means Madara wins the close encounter with SM sensing. 

But without his Mokuton now, he would have to slowly absorb A's armor, which might be too much.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> You never gave an argument as to how the Raikage was faster than Madara, you just told me that I needed to prove he was faster.



Thats after you made the claim that Madara has more than enough speed to deal with A. 
There is no actual evidence in the manga that he is as fast as A. 




> Based on Naruto's ability to counterblitz Sandaime who's comparable to V1 Ei, if V2 to Ei can actually pull off a frontal blitz against Naruto before Naruto can put up a guard, then* he's not just a tier faster than he is in V1, he's several tiers.*


He obviously is. Given Sasuke went from outmanuvering the guy to not being able to follow him with his eyes, the same eyes that allowed him to outmanuver him. Thats a big difference.



> He had to since the kunai appears right next to Ei's head despite minato holding it in his right hand next to his knees before.


Technicality/art mistake/irrelevant


 this panel 

 this panel 




> No, the whole Ei vs Minato thing was made to show Minato evaded Ei, the only reason he waited to the last moment to evade was the same reason he waited to the last moment to evade Obito, Naruto waited till the last moment to evade Sandaime so that they could pull off a counterblitz.



No, he didn't wait, he was able to react @ the last second. Minato's eyes are blank, completely blank showing that he wasn't able to register it till the last second. Minato was basically frozen while A was moving.

The whole A bragging about how both Minato and Naruto could dodge his top speed does not revolve around undermining A, but rather showing how hard it is to do so.
What your suggesting here is that they are making it loook easy which clearly wasn't.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't get why you're all getting so worked up about A and Madara's speed.

Even if someone here could prove that Madara is as fast as A (I feel like I could if I had a go, but being the lazy bastard I am, I won't try), there's still the massive bloody strength difference.

Sure, Madara knocked Naruto on his ass so that he mussed the dirt for about a meter, but so did Tendo Pain (with his body, not with ST): Naruto's durability itself doesn't seem to be enhanced by SM - the black rods still go straight through his hands and Deva Path still fractures his bones. A, on the other hand, breaks Susano'o to bits and snaps Sasuke's limbs like twigs. If Sasuke's puny stick blade (in relation to Raikage's superhuman body) has the strength and applies enough pressure to go through Madara's arm, A's punch will blow it clean off.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats after you made the claim that Madara has more than enough speed to deal with A.


It doesn't matter when you made that claim, that's a positive claim to knowledge and thus you have a burden of proof to back up that claim if you are going to assert it.  The only way you wouldn't have a burden of proof is if you aren't asserting anything or taken any form of position.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> *
> There is no actual evidence in the manga that he is as fast as A. *


That's not only a positive claim to knowledge which requires you to back up with an argument, but even if we presupposed that it were true, it wouldn't mean that he isn't as fast or even faster than Ei since in order to assert that is true, you'd have to give positive arguments for why Ei is faster than Madara.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> He obviously is. Given Sasuke went from outmanuvering the guy to not being able to follow him with his eyes, the same eyes that allowed him to outmanuver him. Thats a big difference.


he couldn't turn his head fast enough, he saw where he was going with his eyes, and shunshining perpendicular to someone's LoS is much much harder to track then shunshinning right at them as they are practically motionless from that perspective.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Technicality/art mistake/irrelevant


You could literally wave off anything and everything you don't like in the manga with this excuse.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> this panel
> 
> this panel


Explain how this supports your assertion that it's a technicality.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, he didn't wait, he was able to react @ the last second. Minato's eyes are blank, completely blank showing that he wasn't able to register it till the last second. Minato was basically frozen while A was moving.


That's completely irrelevant since we know that Minato had to have waited till the last second to perform his counterblitz via that kunai he threw, and he made that face in order to fool Ei into thinking he just pulled off a blitz as the second time Ei attempted that *Minato shows he's not even phased by Ei's speed.*  If he actually did have problems reacting and could only just activate FTG in that instant before Ei punched his nose, then he wouldn't have been able to throw the kunai, and he would have had the "!?" or "!!" mark over his head which signifies *only mentally reacting in that instance.*



fior fior said:


> Sure, Madara knocked Naruto on his ass so that he mussed the dirt for about a meter, *but so did Tendo Pain (with his body, not with ST)*: Naruto's durability itself doesn't seem to be enhanced by SM - the black rods still go straight through his hands and *Deva Path still fractures his bones.*


you need to go back and reread the pain fight as the bolded never happened.



fior fior said:


> A, on the other hand, breaks Susano'o to bits and *snaps Sasuke's limbs like twigs. *If Sasuke's puny stick blade (in relation to Raikage's superhuman body) has the strength and applies enough pressure to go through Madara's arm,* A's punch will blow it clean off.*


The bolded either didn't happen in the manga or has been disproved by what happened in the manga.

Madara had enough physical strength to knock out V1 cloaked alliance shinobi by the dozen.  Those are the same shinobi who tanked Tenpenchii with a weaker cloak and who took zero damage from madara and obito's combined katon.  Unless you want to argue Madara took them out with some ninjutsu, he has to have Ei level striking power in order to pull that off.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> It doesn't matter when you made that claim, that's a positive claim to knowledge and thus you have a burden of proof to back up that claim if you are going to assert it.  The only way you wouldn't have a burden of proof is if you aren't asserting anything or taken any form of position.
> 
> 
> That's not only a positive claim to knowledge which requires you to back up with an argument, but even if we presupposed that it were true, it wouldn't mean that he isn't as fast or even faster than Ei since in order to assert that is true, you'd have to give positive arguments for why Ei is faster than Madara.



I don't get what your saying here.

Why would I need to prove that Madara isn't as fast as A when there is no evidence to claim that he is in the first place ? 





> he couldn't turn his head fast enough, he saw where he was going with his eyes, and shunshining perpendicular to someone's LoS is much much harder to track then shunshinning right at them as they are practically motionless from that perspective.


A left an afterimage
Sasuke hit the afterimage with Amaterasu. So it took a split second for him to realize that A had escaped his vision. So before it came down to not being able to physically turn his head, his eyes also couldn't follow him.




> You could literally wave off anything and everything you don't like in the manga with this excuse.


No you can't.




> Explain how this supports your assertion that it's a technicality.


Because importance of the kunai in both instances is to show the reader that Minato teleported to it.

Anything other than that, like its positioning and shit are minor details and technicalities.

In the instance I just posted, the kunais placement changes drastically. This time it goes closer to the ground(so that Minato can hold it as he bamflashes Tobi). 
What is your explanation for that ? That Minato somehow changed its trajectory with his psychic powers ? 




> That's completely irrelevant since we know that Minato had to have waited till the last second to perform his counterblitz via that kunai he threw, and he made that face in order to fool Ei into thinking he just pulled off a blitz as the second time Ei attempted that *Minato shows he's not even phased by Ei's speed.*  If he actually did have problems reacting and could only just activate FTG in that instant before Ei punched his nose, then he wouldn't have been able to throw the kunai, and he would have had the "!?" or "!!" mark over his head which signifies *only mentally reacting in that instance.*


Minato didn't have a "!" or "?" on top of his head because he couldn't even register it in the first place.
Raikage was that fast.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't get what your saying here.
> 
> Why would I need to prove that Madara isn't as fast as A when there is no evidence to claim that he is in the first place ?


Because when you make a claim to knowledge, you have a burden of proof to back up that assertion regardless if there is any evidence against your assertion and I thoroughly covered this in that big post you quoted but did not address even with an example.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> A left an afterimage
> Sasuke hit the afterimage with Amaterasu. So it took a split second for him to realize that A had escaped his vision. So before it came down to not being able to physically turn his head, his eyes also couldn't follow him.


that doesn't make sense, if his eyes couldn't follow Ei, then he wouldn't have turned his head at all.  And again if Ei is shunshinning right at sasuke, he's basically standing still in sasuke's PoV.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> No you can't.


again, show how that's true else it's baseless and holds no water.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because importance of the kunai in both instances is to show the reader that Minato teleported to it.
> 
> Anything other than that, like its positioning and shit are minor details and technicalities.


No it's not, the reader sees that in order to place that kunai in that position, minato has to throw it, it's not a technicality its something that Minato has to be able to perform in order to get that kunai into that position.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> In the instance I just posted, the kunais placement changes drastically. This time it goes closer to the ground(so that Minato can hold it as he bamflashes Tobi).
> What is your explanation for that ? That Minato somehow changed its trajectory with his psychic powers ?


Is that it?  The kunai being slightly lower to the ground somehow means Minato didn't have to first toss that kunai in order for it to appear above Ei's shoulder?  If you* look at how low to the ground Minato and Tobi were when running at each other* and the fact that the kunai is angled down when minato catches it.  Even the anime shows Minato tossing his kunai and the animators are all for leaving out the technicalities.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato didn't have a "!" or "?" on top of his head because he couldn't even register it in the first place.
> Raikage was that fast.


If Ei was so fast Minato couldn't even register with the "!" then how did he even react to his speed?  If it hasn't even registered in his mind when Ei's fist is on his nose, then he gets punched by Ei as no one physically does anything in the instant they register something with the "!?" reaction.

And of course you've failed to address the other points of that post so you've have to concede that minato had no problems reacting to Ei's speed.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 6, 2013)

ureharakk said:
			
		

> you need to go back and reread the pain fight as the bolded never happened.


You're right, actually. It was only after Naruto stopped using SM that Pain started beating his ass. My bad. 
Still, Naruto didn't suffer a single injury from Madara's strike, whereas people like Juugo sustain fatal wounds from A's punches.



			
				ureharakk said:
			
		

> The bolded either didn't happen in the manga or has been disproved by what happened in the manga.


You're right: Ei doesn't snap Sasuke's limbs, he just breaks his Susano'o to pieces and puts a hole in Juugo's chest; later, he smashes up Madara's Susano'o like paper.



			
				ureharakk said:
			
		

> Madara had enough physical strength to knock out V1 cloaked alliance shinobi by the dozen. Those are the same shinobi who tanked Tenpenchii with a weaker cloak and who took zero damage from madara and obito's combined katon. Unless you want to argue Madara took them out with some ninjutsu, he has to have Ei level striking power in order to pull that off.


Actually, Madara used a Katon technique to do that:


You still haven't refuted my third point, either: Madara's durability doesn't even come close to A's. Sasuke's sword goes straight through Madara's arm, while Raikage tanks much stronger attacks and doesn't have a scratch on his body to show for it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

fior fior said:


> You're right, actually. It was only after Naruto stopped using SM that Pain started beating his ass. My bad.
> Still, Naruto didn't suffer a single injury from Madara's strike, whereas people like Juugo sustain fatal wounds from A's punches.



Actually Naruto gets pierced by a black rod twice. First when he stabs himself to find Nagato's location and later on when Nagato launches it from his wheel chair.


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## ueharakk (Dec 6, 2013)

fior fior said:


> You're right: Ei doesn't snap Sasuke's limbs, he just breaks his Susano'o to pieces and puts a hole in Juugo's chest; later, he smashes up Madara's Susano'o like paper.


Ei smashes up madara's susanoo with oonoki's weighted tech.  But the other thing I was refering to was Edo madara blocking Ei's punch *without sustaining damage.*



fior fior said:


> Actually, Madara used a Katon technique to do that:


That technique didn't even hurt sasuke who has no super durability himself.



fior fior said:


> You still haven't refuted my third point, either: Madara's durability doesn't even come close to A's. Sasuke's sword goes straight through Madara's arm, while Raikage tanks much stronger attacks and doesn't have a scratch on his body to show for it.


hopefully edo madara blocking Ei's punch without damage will suffice.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 6, 2013)

ureharakk said:
			
		

> Ei smashes up madara's susanoo with oonoki's weighted tech. But the other thing I was refering to was Edo madara blocking Ei's punch without sustaining damage.


Damn, that's a pretty weighty feat. I was always under the misconception that he had simply blocked the punch by shifting it to the side, but he actually tanks it straight up.
Still, it could be put down to Asura Path: it really does improve durability. I'm almost certain that to do something like blocking A's punch, he would have needed a defensive powerup. This idea is reinforced by the fact that Sasuke's raw blade (no chakra channeling, etc.) went through living Madara's arm like butter. Blind Madara doesn't have the luxury of being able to use the Rinnegan.
I also wouldn't say that Edo Madara's durability == living Madara's durability, seeing as Sasuke's sword (without any enhancements) cut through his arm.

Nevertheless, A is still capable of shattering a V1 Susano'o with relative ease. When he trades punches with KM Naruto, it's A that comes out on top: Naruto goes flying whenever they join fists. He blows walls apart with ease, and don't tell me brick and plaster is weaker than human flesh and bone.



			
				ureharakk said:
			
		

> That technique didn't even hurt sasuke who has no super durability himself.


Doesn't that just support my argument ? It just goes to show how inconsistent Kishi's writing is, too.
To be honest, I wouldn't take the Juubi vs. cloaked Alliance feats seriously, seeing as the thing tanked KM Naruto + Bee's combined Super Bijuudama without even a graze, but has its limbs blown apart by cloaked fodders. Doesn't change the fact that it was done by a Ninjutsu, not Madara's physical body, either.

Don't really understand what you're trying to say. If you could clarify, that would be cool.



			
				ureharakk said:
			
		

> hopefully edo madara blocking Ei's punch without damage will suffice.


Well, it's sort of an 'anomaly feat', if you know what I mean. Similar to the way Lee blitzes Madara before he or Obito can even begin to react. A, on the other hand, consistently shows to be incredibly strong and extremely durable.


----------



## Shinryu (Dec 6, 2013)

He chakra leeches his lightning cloak off then oneshots him with a mountain size Katon.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 6, 2013)

> Actually Naruto gets pierced by a black rod twice. First when he stabs himself to find Nagato's location and later on when Nagato launches it from his wheel chair.



The fucking wheel chair just cracked me up for some reason. But thanks for clarifying.


----------



## fior fior (Dec 6, 2013)

> He chakra leeches his lightning cloak off then oneshots him with a mountain size Katon.



If he can even grab onto A for long enough to sap his cloak. Where the fuck did you get a mountain size Katon from? Madara's are town-sized at most. Sasuke tanked living Madara's Katon without a scratch, and you think they will hurt somebody like V2 A? 

Get out of here, man.

Edit: you did actually remind me that Madara can use Ninjutsu in this fight, though. Thanks for that.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

fior fior said:


> The fucking wheel chair just cracked me up for some reason. But thanks for clarifying.



It cracked all of us up when we first saw it.

Because we consistently made jokes about Nagato being a cripple but then it came to be true. And on top of that he launched black rods from his wheel chair like some 3rd grade video game villain. It was too much for everybody to handle.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Because when you make a claim to knowledge, you have a burden of proof to back up that assertion regardless if there is any evidence against your assertion and I thoroughly covered this in that big post you quoted but did not address even with an example.



I lost you here.





> that doesn't make sense, if his eyes couldn't follow Ei, then he wouldn't have turned his head at all.  And again if Ei is shunshinning right at sasuke, he's basically standing still in sasuke's PoV.


I am not disagreeing that shunshining towards the opponent is different than to the side.
But in this particular case, A left Sasuke's vision by leaving an after image. 
And Sasuke turned his head to the side, probably understanding that the dude just escape his vision.
To understand that you don't have to follow him with your eyes. Dude dissapeared and left an after image. You don't have to be smart to reailze that he just moved out of your vision with ultra speed.
Karin also confirms that Sasuke can't track A's speed.






> again, show how that's true else it's baseless and holds no water.



Because you made a shitty generalization which isn't what I meant.



> No it's not, the reader sees that in order to place that kunai in that position, minato has to throw it, it's not a technicality its something that Minato has to be able to perform in order to get that kunai into that position.



No, because if Minato just left it, it would be below A's level of height and when Minato tp'd to it, he wouldn't be able to grab it.
So out of convenience, it had to be on top of A so Minato could tp on to of it and grab it to attack A.




> Is that it?  The kunai being slightly lower to the ground somehow means Minato didn't have to first toss that kunai in order for it to appear above Ei's shoulder?  If you* look at how low to the ground Minato and Tobi were when running at each other* and the fact that the kunai is angled down when minato catches it.  Even the anime shows Minato tossing his kunai and the animators are all for leaving out the technicalities.



Minato threw the Kunai in a straight trajectory, you can clearly see it going straight through Tobi's face and coming out from the back of his head. And in the panel he catches it, it is all of a sudden alot closer to the ground.
And since literally no time passed between this panel and this  it wouldn't make sense for the Kunai to alter its altitude, even if you ignore the fact that Minato threw it with a straight angle.


Conclusion : Kunai's altitude is a minor technicality that can be overlooked. And it is not important. Whats important is that Minato can teleport to the kunai and look cool while doing so. 



> If Ei was so fast Minato couldn't even register with the "!" then how did he even react to his speed?  If it hasn't even registered in his mind when Ei's fist is on his nose, then he gets punched by Ei as no one physically does anything in the instant they register something with the "!?" reaction.



It was done to emphasize A's speed. Imagine it like we were shown a fraction of a second.  Minato had no time to be surprised. Minato's body posture and his blank stare here on the top panel :this  makes it clear. 

On the bottom right panel he seems to notice A given he is looking right into A's fist. So it was a last split second escape.

And Minato wasn't phased by A's speed the second time because he was expecting it. First time he had no idea how fast A was.




> And of course you've failed to address the other points of that post so you've have to concede that minato had no problems reacting to Ei's speed.


I didn't say Minato can't react to A's speed. I said he can't react to it physically.


----------



## MysteriousD (Dec 6, 2013)

Madara can only absorb through his hands and feet so he has to touch A to absorb chakra and heal.

This is manga knowledge so Madar Uchiha gets V2 A treatment.

From there Madara gets trampled, battered, crushed, and killed.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj1cTdKaKXo[/YOUTUBE]

*Replace Neji with A and Naruto with blind Madara*

*And if Madara DOES bounce in the air like that... A can intercept midair and*

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0_sq4m-_V4[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I lost you here.


Would you like to explain why you lost me there?  Look every single time we get into discussions, I back up my argument with explanations and I try to explain my reasoning as best as possible, if you really are interested in getting to the truth, don't just post these one liners, explain them.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not disagreeing that shunshining towards the opponent is different than to the side.
> But in this particular case, A left Sasuke's vision by leaving an after image.
> And Sasuke turned his head to the side, probably understanding that the dude just escape his vision.
> To understand that you don't have to follow him with your eyes. Dude dissapeared and left an after image. You don't have to be smart to reailze that he just moved out of your vision with ultra speed.
> Karin also confirms that Sasuke can't track A's speed.


Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you asserting that from sasuke's PoV, Ei simply disappeared?  Because I don't think that's true at all as the afterimage was gone while Ei was still in his LoS meaning in addition to Sasuke turning his head in the direction Ei shunshined.  So he had to have seen Ei, he just wasn't fast enough to keep his eyes on Ei.  

Also karin's statement disproves your argument because the issue is only Sasuke being able to track his movements, not him being able to physically react to those fast movements when Ei is in his LoS.






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because you made a shitty generalization which isn't what I meant.


Again, that's just an assertion show why your assertion is true via an argument.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, because if Minato just left it, it would be below A's level of height and when Minato tp'd to it, he wouldn't be able to grab it.
> So out of convenience, it had to be on top of A so Minato could tp on to of it and grab it to attack A.


Yeah, so the only explanation as to how it would have gotten there is Minato throwing it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato threw the Kunai in a straight trajectory, you can clearly see it going straight through Tobi's face and coming out from the back of his head. And in the panel he catches it, it is all of a sudden alot closer to the ground.
> And since literally no time passed between this panel and this  it wouldn't make sense for the Kunai to alter its altitude, even if you ignore the fact that Minato threw it with a straight angle.


If you look at the kunai when minato goes to catch it, it's angle is altered its no longer moving straight but its aimed lower than parallel to the ground, and that's to be expected as a kunai thrown parallel to the ground, no matter how much velocity it has going forward will get drawn to the ground by gravity and its trajectory is going to be a downward curve.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Conclusion : Kunai's altitude is a minor technicality that can be overlooked. And it is not important. Whats important is that Minato can teleport to the kunai and look cool while doing so.


Not really, the kunai isn't much lower than it was when it was thrown and the displaced distance can be accounted for the kunai's changed trajectory due to gravity.  Sure it may not be a perfect representation of reality, but it's nothing like moving from below minato's waste to above minato's head.  Even the angle of the kunai is different than when Minato was holding it.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was done to emphasize A's speed. Imagine it like we were shown a fraction of a second.  Minato had no time to be surprised. Minato's body posture and his blank stare here on the top panel :this  makes it clear.
> 
> On the bottom right panel he seems to notice A given he is looking right into A's fist. So it was a last split second escape.


If what you are saying is true, then minato HAD to have been surprised by Ei's speed, being surprised is not something minato is in control of and you even use his facial expression as some kind of evidence that his is surprised.  That's how kishi consistently displays characters being surprised by overwhelming speed, had Kishi wanted to show minato only noticed Ei was there or was surprised by his speed, he'd have had !? the moment Ei was a couple inches from his face.

Kishi displayed Ei vs Minato in the exact same way he displayed *Ei vs kid juugo:*.  Ei runs at him with super speed nobody has trouble perceiving him running to juugo, and his fist is allowed to get within inches of juugo's face, yet Juugo still blocks the attack.  It's the exact same situation except instead of physically putting up a block Minato throws his kunai. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And Minato wasn't phased by A's speed the second time because he was expecting it. First time he had no idea how fast A was.


No, minato wasn't phased by Ei's speed the second time because he was faking it the first time in order to counterblitz Ei, *which is why he is able to talk while Ei runs at him and turn his head to look at Ei before Ei can hit him.*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Would you like to explain why you lost me there?  Look every single time we get into discussions, I back up my argument with explanations and I try to explain my reasoning as best as possible, if you really are interested in getting to the truth, don't just post these one liners, explain them.



I didn't understand what you said there.





> Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you asserting that from sasuke's PoV, Ei simply disappeared?  Because I don't think that's true at all as the afterimage was gone while Ei was still in his LoS meaning in addition to Sasuke turning his head in the direction Ei shunshined.  So he had to have seen Ei, he just wasn't fast enough to keep his eyes on Ei.


If what you said was true, then Sasuke'd track A with his eyes, and with Amaterasu till he left his field of vision. But Sasuke kept focusing on the after image and then we see the "!" after Samurai is hit.



> Also karin's statement disproves your argument because the issue is only Sasuke being able to track his movements, not him being able to physically react to those fast movements when Ei is in his LoS.


Karin simply says Sasuke can't follow A's movements.





> Again, that's just an assertion show why your assertion is true via an argument.


No, what we are talking about here is a specific context. It can't be applied to everything else in the manga like you are suggesting.





> Yeah, so the only explanation as to how it would have gotten there is Minato throwing it.


Or it is just a technicality/irrelevant detail.

Just like the one below. The two instances are identical.






> If you look at the kunai when minato goes to catch it, it's angle is altered its no longer moving straight but its aimed lower than parallel to the ground, and that's to be expected as a kunai thrown parallel to the ground, no matter how much velocity it has going forward will get drawn to the ground by gravity and its trajectory is going to be a downward curve.


Yes, the trajectory is going to be a downward curve. 

But the curve should be something like this : 


So the downward curve won't be noticable in such short order.




> Not really, the kunai isn't much lower than it was when it was thrown and the displaced distance can be accounted for the kunai's changed trajectory due to gravity.  Sure it may not be a perfect representation of reality, but it's nothing like moving from below minato's waste to above minato's head.  Even the angle of the kunai is different than when Minato was holding it.



Please look @ the image above and the manga pages.

You can easily estimate the trajectory alteration by looking @ Obito's chest level.
His chest is touching the ground when he gets bamflashed and positioning of Kunai is almost the same,  it is a bit above t he back of his head.
More or less the same position when Minato first threw it. 
So the change in trajectory is more or less equal to the change in the positioning of Obito's chest.
Itachi has better reaction time than Sasuke

Pretty significant.



> If what you are saying is true, then minato HAD to have been surprised by Ei's speed, being surprised is not something minato is in control of and you even use his facial expression as some kind of evidence that his is surprised.  That's how kishi consistently displays characters being surprised by overwhelming speed, had Kishi wanted to show minato only noticed Ei was there or was surprised by his speed, he'd have had !? the moment Ei was a couple inches from his face.


Look @ Minato's face when A first charges.
his mouth is open, eyes looking blank. More or less the same when A's fist is an inch from his face, but this time he looks fearful, eyes bigger etc.
His facial expression is nothing like "just as planned" face.

Compare it to this face : 
Itachi has better reaction time than Sasuke

They are nothing alike.

This is clearly a "WTF" face. Itachi has better reaction time than Sasuke
Its irrelevant whether he had a "!" or not.




> Kishi displayed Ei vs Minato in the exact same way he displayed *Ei vs kid juugo:*.  Ei runs at him with super speed nobody has trouble perceiving him running to juugo, and his fist is allowed to get within inches of juugo's face, yet Juugo still blocks the attack.  It's the exact same situation except instead of physically putting up a block Minato throws his kunai.


Yes, it is pretty much the same except one is V1, which is something Juugo can react to physically. 
The other is something Sasuke could only react with a thought, not even with sharingan precog.





> No, minato wasn't phased by Ei's speed the second time *because he was faking it the first time in order to counterblitz Ei,* *which is why he is able to talk while Ei runs at him and turn his head to look at Ei before Ei can hit him.*



Nice fanfiction you got there.


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## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't understand what you said there.


Then elaborate on what you didn't understand and why.  





Grimmjowsensei said:


> If what you said was true, then Sasuke'd track A with his eyes, and with Amaterasu till he left his field of vision. *But Sasuke kept focusing on the after image and then we see the "!" after Samurai is hit*.


I don't see how the bolded contradicts Sasuke tracking Ei after he realized Ei moved which is why he turns his head the same direction that Ei moved in.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Karin simply says Sasuke can't follow A's movements.


Which disproves your argument since the issue isn't physically reacting to his movements, but keeping track of them which he can't do if Ei shunshins out of LoS.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, what we are talking about here is a specific context. It can't be applied to everything else in the manga like you are suggesting.


Why can't it?  If a character blitzes someone from a hundred meters versus 10 meters, the equivalent of your argument is that 'the distance doesn't matter, all that matters is that the character is fast enough to blitz the other'.  You can use that for anything, sizes of explosion, power of attacks, you name it.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or it is just a technicality/irrelevant detail.
> 
> Just like the one below. The two instances are identical.


The two situations are nothing alike as Minato vs Ei has an actual manga explanation: that he threw the kunai which accounts for a height displacement of a couple feet and an orientation difference of the kunai. In addition to that, if the kunai in minato vs Tobi is significantly displaced it doesn't affect the outcome of the fight, it just makes minato not look as cool when he catches it.  However it's necessary for the kunai to get above Ei's shoulder in order for Minato to put Ei into that position, so it has to be Minato actually doing that and not some kind slight art displacement in order to make him look cool.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But the curve should be something like this :
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Actually this is the displaced distance:


And sure it's not perfect, but that's just kishi and inconsistent gravity we've seen it before *with itachi's throwing techniques as well.*

However an inconsistency in gravity does not make objects fly upward and the displacement in distance from below minato's waist to above his head is a far greater distance than a mere foot and a half.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Look @ Minato's face when A first charges.
> his mouth is open, eyes looking blank. More or less the same when A's fist is an inch from his face, but this time he looks fearful, eyes bigger etc.
> His facial expression is nothing like "just as planned" face.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter what kind of face minato makes, if he doesn't have the "!" there then he's not surprised by it and has mentally reacted before that, that's kishi's consistent way of showing that someone has just noticed something or is surprised by it. 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, it is pretty much the same except one is V1, which is something Juugo can react to physically.
> The other is something Sasuke could only react with a thought, not even with sharingan precog.




read what you just typed.  If the case of juugo vs V1 Ei is the same as Minato, then obviously minato didn't just notice Ei when he was right in his face as no one has problems seeing Ei approaching him.  So minato perceived and mentally processed Ei coming at him long before he was right in his face, which proves that he did wait till Ei was at his nose before activating hirashin.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nice fanfiction you got there.


Concession accepted as 'nice fanfiction you got there' isn't in anyway a counterargument, thus my argument remains untouched, ignored and conceded by you.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Then elaborate on what you didn't understand and why.


I didn't understand it as a whole. English isn't my strong side.




> I don't see how the bolded contradicts Sasuke tracking Ei after he realized Ei moved which is why he turns his head the same direction that Ei moved in.


If Sasuke could track A, Amaterasu would follow him till he left his vision completely. But the moment Sasuke realized A was moving sideways, it was too late, hence Amaterasu stuck on one point.




> Which disproves your argument since the issue isn't physically reacting to his movements, but keeping track of them which he can't do if Ei shunshins out of LoS.


I am not sure how it disproves my argument. 
My argument is that Sasuke can't track Ei with his eyes.
Which he couldn't.





> Why can't it?  If a character blitzes someone from a hundred meters versus 10 meters, the equivalent of your argument is that 'the distance doesn't matter, all that matters is that the character is fast enough to blitz the other'.  You can use that for anything, sizes of explosion, power of attacks, you name it.


Ugh no. 
You are talking about completely different now. 

Anything that is a minor detail, mostly a visual detail which is besides the point, especially if similar "errors" are exposed priorly, then yeah we could discard those.




> The two situations are nothing alike as Minato vs Ei has an actual manga explanation: that he threw the kunai which accounts for a height displacement of a couple feet and an orientation difference of the kunai. In addition to that, if the kunai in minato vs Tobi is significantly displaced it doesn't affect the outcome of the fight, it just makes minato not look as cool when he catches it.  However it's necessary for the kunai to get above Ei's shoulder in order for Minato to put Ei into that position, so it has to be Minato actually doing that and not some kind slight art displacement in order to make him look cool.



Actually they are pretty much the same. 
And no, there is no explanation in the manga. You are filling in the blank parts to your liking.

Normally, such details are highlighted if the author thinks it is important. Like in Itachi's Kunai example where he takes out Rinnegan's shared vision. We are shown what actually happened off panel.

And Minato could teleport behind A eitherway, he just didn't necessarily need to teleport on top of him. 

The point of that encounter is to show that Minato can evade A's fastest punch and counter attack with Hirashin, demonstrating that he is the superior and faster nin. 

Like I already said, the rest are just technicalites and not important enough to be highlighted from the authors point of view.





> Actually this is the displaced distance:


The Tobi on the floor is slightly bigger than the one standing.
Reducing the scale by 5-10% would do.
And it is pretty much the same with my drawing. 





> And sure it's not perfect, but that's just kishi and inconsistent gravity we've seen it before *with itachi's throwing techniques as well.*


I don't see what is inconsistent in that picture.


> However an inconsistency in gravity does not make objects fly upward and the displacement in distance from below minato's waist to above his head is a far greater distance than a mere foot and a half.


The displacement is greater than a foot and a half but thats besides the point.
It wouldn't matter if it was 20 cms or 50, as long as the difference is noticable.
The point is, the author can take the liberty of altering such details out of convenience.  The amount that is altered doesn't beat the purpose of my argument.
So it is exactly the same thing.





> It doesn't matter what kind of face minato makes, if he doesn't have the "!" there then he's not surprised by it and has mentally reacted before that, that's kishi's consistent way of showing that someone has just noticed something or is surprised by it.



Ofc it does 

Minato makes a suprised face and I am to believe that he wasn't surprised just because there isn't a "!" on top of his head ?

Who should I believe, you or the manga ? 



> read what you just typed.  If the case of juugo vs V1 Ei is the same as Minato, then obviously minato didn't just notice Ei when he was right in his face as no one has problems seeing Ei approaching him.  So minato perceived and mentally processed Ei coming at him long before he was right in his face, which proves that he did wait till Ei was at his nose before activating hirashin.


Minato registers A's movement when the fist is 1 inch away from his face.
And he Hirashins away.




> Concession accepted as 'nice fanfiction you got there' isn't in anyway a counterargument, thus my argument remains untouched, ignored and conceded by you.



But it is fanfiction as you are filling in the blanks to your liking. 
Which I already demonstrated that it is just a convenient art mistake.

And as the viewers, we can't know what happens off panel, it could be that A bumbed into that Kunai with his knee or something and elevated it.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 9, 2013)

Madaras is far superior in taijutsu to anyone in the naruverse from hashirama  , wrestling moves are not going to work, madara will get out of all raikages moves or dodge any move raikage does, he's shown incredible abilities to handle anyone in CQC . Raikage is brute force that's not working on madara


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> Madaras is far superior in taijutsu to anyone in the naruverse from hashirama  , wrestling moves are not going to work, madara will get out of all raikages moves or dodge any move raikage does, he's shown incredible abilities to handle anyone in CQC . Raikage is brute force that's not working on madara



Why doesn't wrestling moves work on Madara ? What is the reasoning for that.
Where does the implication that Madara is superior to everyone in taijutsu comes from ? 

Once A grabs Madara, like he did to Sasuke, he is basically dead. Brute force works just fine.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Madara wins.

To add perspective, Madara should logically have the benefits of Sage Mode too. So this is essentially SM Madara, without eyes and Mokuton, who has the chakra absorption ability.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Once A grabs Madara, like he did to Sasuke, he is basically dead. Brute force works just fine.



Once Madara's hands or feet touch A, he'll be fodderised via Madara's chakra absorption. Furthermore would A's jutsu really kill a Sage Mode user?


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why doesn't wrestling moves work on Madara ? What is the reasoning for that.
> Where does the implication that Madara is superior to everyone in taijutsu comes from ?
> 
> Once A grabs Madara, like he did to Sasuke, he is basically dead. Brute force works just fine.



From what we've seen I can see him escaping it As grasp. Look what he did to the alliance, how he handled SM naruto and sasuke he's one of the best at taijutsu. If madara is in SM he will counter A 
As not grabbing him, madara casually deflected bijuu mode narutos attempted to attack him I'm sure he could do the same to A. 
Yes if A did grab madara he would be in danger but I don't think it would severely harm a sage mode user


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> From what we've seen I can see him escaping it As grasp. Look what he did to the alliance, how he handled SM naruto and sasuke he's one of the best at taijutsu.


Whats the relation of this to A ?




> If madara is in SM he will counter A
> As not grabbing him, madara casually deflected bijuu mode narutos attempted to attack him I'm sure he could do the same to A.


Sasuke stabbed him. A is a much more proficient Taijutsu fighter than Sasuke.


> Yes if A did grab madara he would be in danger but I don't think it would severely harm a sage mode user


Liger bomb broke ribcage susano'o's rib.
Even if Madara is as durable as ribcage Susano'o, his ribs will be broken.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Once Madara's hands or feet touch A, he'll be fodderised via Madara's chakra absorption.




Not before A slams him to his knee, breaking his backbone and crippling him.




> Furthermore would A's jutsu really kill a Sage Mode user?



Anything and everything.

What are his(or any other SM users) durability feats ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not before A slams him to his knee, breaking his backbone and crippling him.



Even the slightest contact will destroy A. Bear in mind that Madara has Hashirama's powers, as such Hashirama's regeneration. That is enhanced by Sage Mode now, whilst being supplemented by SM's own healing/durability factors.




> Anything and everything.
> 
> What are his(or any other SM users) durability feats ?



We've seen SM users tank quite a lot. Plus unless A can attack as hard as Hashirama's Budda Statue, I don't see him doing any lasting damage to SM users. Let alone when SM users can react in the last moment, literally.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even the slightest contact will destroy A.


A has bijuu levels of chakra. I doubt Madara can instantly drain him.



> Bear in mind that Madara has Hashirama's powers, as such Hashirama's regeneration. That is enhanced by Sage Mode now, whilst being supplemented by SM's own healing/durability factors.


We have no idea about Hashirama's regen.




> We've seen SM users tank quite a lot. Plus unless A can attack as hard as Hashirama's Budda Statue, I don't see him doing any lasting damage to SM users. Let alone when SM users can react in the last moment, literally.



Well Madara's arm got easily pierced by Sasuke's sword. 

And  why would A need to attack as hard as Hash's budda statue ? 
Is that the minimum damage output necessary to harm a SM user ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A has bijuu levels of chakra. I doubt Madara can instantly drain him.



Hashirama has chakra reserves equal to 100% Kurama, Minato and Naruto... I don't think A will be a problem.



> We have no idea about Hashirama's regen.



Madara told us about the seal-less Tsunade style regeneration.




> Well Madara's arm got easily pierced by Sasuke's sword.



Naruto fell and slammed into a bunch of rocks unharmed. Your point?



> And  why would A need to attack as hard as Hash's budda statue ?
> Is that the minimum damage output necessary to harm a SM user ?



I'm saying from what we know, it takes a lot to harm a SM user. Your assumption seems to rely on assuming the durability doesn't exist.

The Hashi Budda Statue example was put there for shits and giggles.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2013)

To be honest, it's pretty obvious that a living Madara is too much for the likes of Ei, even in a blinded state. The guy managed to blitz both SM Naruto and Sai at once, even successfully breaking Naruto's guard with a physical attack, and later intercepted EMS Sasuke's Kenjutsu with nothing more than his bare hands. All this definitely speaks volumes about Madara's speed, strength and CQC proficiency. We've seen a _much weaker_ Edo Madara effortlessly defending against one of Ei's super-speed punches, even being more surprised by the latter's speed than his strength - and seeing as Sai was capable of breaking Edo Shin's neck with a single drop kick, it can be inferred that Edos aren't exactly immune to blunt force damage or anything. Yet Madara's arms weren't broken or anything by the impact at all. Talk about a really strong guy. 

Hell, Madara also seemingly broke out of Hashirama's Senpo: Myojinmon and Sai's Fuinjutsu: Koshi Tandan with nothing more than raw strength. Ei has absolutely nothing on that, considering that Hashirama's non-SM Mokuton alone was strong enough to tank the impact and explosion of Kurama's Bijudama with only minimal damage.

Ei is faster than SM Naruto, but is he so fast that he can just blitz Naruto and another fast ninja without either being able to do a thing about it? Considering that one of Naruto's much slower clones managed to deal with Ei's father just fine, I seriously doubt that. Madara even managed to counter EMS Sasuke's Kenjutsu, in spite of EMS Sasuke having reflexes on par with BSM Naruto and being able to react to Juubi Obito's speed.  Therefore, Madara should be more than capable of handling Ei's full speed.

Going by feats, a blind living Madara is about as fast as Juubi Obito, if not faster. Considering that KCM Naruto was far faster than Ei, going by both feats and powerscaling Juubi Obito is even faster than that, much faster I may add. BSM should be far above KCM in terms of speed and reflexes, and though he was able to react to Tobi's speed (alongside EMS Sasuke, again), he was clearly still amazed by it. Therefore, one can conclude from all this that Juubi Obito is far and away faster than a full speed Raikage.

In short, Madara should be able to run circles around even a fully amped Ei, and smash his skull to dust with a single hit if he's feeling like it, and there's nothing that Ei can do about it, quite honestly. Madara can also drain Ei's Raiton no Yoroi with physical contact alone, as he had canonically done to a Kyuubi-enhanced fodder through his foot.  

Just because Sasuke survived Madara's SM Katon: Haijingakure doesn't mean the Raikage can, considering that Ei canonically lost his arm to unfocused Amaterasu flames alone. Sasuke being able to survive Madara's Katon may have something to do with his mastery over fire in general. It also doesn't change the fact that the Katon used there wasn't necessarily an offensive one, it was more like a simple smokescreen if anything - and even so, it was still able to slightly burn SM Naruto with minimal contact.

Even as an Edo Tensei and prior to stealing Hashirama's Senjutsu, just one of Madara's offensive Katons like Gouka Mekkyaku required more than a dozen Suitons in order to be extinguished. Ei is durable, but I don't believe for one second that he is durable enough to survive a Katon that powerful. Especially not if it's being used by a far stronger living Madara and if it's enhanced by Senjutsu to boot. In short? Madara rapes Ei in the most brutal manner possible. Even without Dojutsu, he's on a whole other level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hashirama has chakra reserves equal to 100% Kurama, Minato and Naruto... I don't think A will be a problem.


Hashirama was fighting nonstop, he probably had little left anyways. Besides, he was already bound and was in no position to fight back.



> Madara told us about the seal-less Tsunade style regeneration.



Something Madara hasn't used so far. So I'll just leave it out.



> Naruto fell and slammed into a bunch of rocks unharmed. Your point?


My point is clear.
Sasuke's sword > fodder rocks.
So is Raikage's Susano'o busting blows.



> I'm saying from what we know, it takes a lot to harm a SM user. Your assumption seems to rely on assuming the durability doesn't exist.


I didn't say the durability doesn't exist. 
It just won't help much against A's offense thats all.



> The Hashi Budda Statue example was put there for shits and giggles.



I see. Because Budda Statue is powerful enough to melt PS level durability.
A SM user would be atomized with 1 blow.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama was fighting nonstop, he probably had little left anyways. Besides, he was already bound and was in no position to fight back.



An Edo Tensei having little chakra. 



> Something Madara hasn't used so far. So I'll just leave it out.



You can make a case with the sword wound.



> My point is clear.
> Sasuke's sword > fodder rocks.
> So is Raikage's Susano'o busting blows.



Raikage's _basic_ Susanoo busting blows. I can't say for certain SM will tank A. Then again, you can't say A's attacks will destroy SM Madara, for certain.



> I didn't say the durability doesn't exist.
> It just won't help much against A's offense thats all.



How do you know this?



> I see. Because Budda Statue is powerful enough to melt PS level durability.
> A SM user would be atomized with 1 blow.



Atomized? I don't think the statue uses Jinton, or Yin-Yang style.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 9, 2013)

An Edo produced by Orochimaru and free from his binding having stamina problems isn't terribly surprising since the recovery rate of his Edos are vastly slower than Kabuto's Edos. That wasn't a problem in Part I, so it has to be the fact that he has detached his power from them and isn't controlling them.

Also, Grimmjow, Madara healed without seals. And he blocked Ei's blows without issue before, which means his body is not going to crumble, much less now with added SM durability.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> An Edo Tensei having little chakra.


/insert Muu not being able to shoot jinton after splitting.




> You can make a case with the sword wound.


Which closed after Madara absorbed fodder shrouds.




> Raikage's _basic_ Susanoo busting blows. I can't say for certain SM will tank A. Then again, you can't say A's attacks will destroy SM Madara, for certain.


Going by what Sasuke could do to him with a sword, yes I can.
A destroys Madara.
Here I said it 




> How do you know this?


Because Madara hasn't shown any durability on the level of Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o. And even if he did, Raikage'd still chop him in half as he did to Sauce's Suzy.



> Atomized? I don't think the statue uses Jinton, or Yin-Yang style.


Neither do I.

I used the word atomized to illustrate how badly a SM user would die. 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Also, Grimmjow, Madara healed without seals. And he blocked Ei's blows without issue before, which means his body is not going to crumble, much less now with added SM durability.



I attributed that to Madara absorbing Bijuu chakra. Sort of like how Nagato rejuvinated after he absorbed Kirabi's chakra.


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## Kriemhild Gretchen (Dec 9, 2013)

Madara, A does not stand a change.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Kriemhild Gretchen said:


> Madara, A does not stand a *change*.



I agree


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> An Edo produced by Orochimaru and free from his binding having stamina problems isn't terribly surprising since the recovery rate of his Edos are vastly slower than Kabuto's Edos. That wasn't a problem in Part I, so it has to be the fact that he has detached his power from them and isn't controlling them.
> 
> Also, Grimmjow, Madara healed without seals. And he blocked Ei's blows without issue before, which means his body is not going to crumble, much less now with added SM durability.



In addition, the very fact he was able to react to A's move (by blocking) once would imply he could dodge with SM enhancing his reflexes. Sage sensing/prediction would make things easier too.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I attributed that to Madara absorbing Bijuu chakra. Sort of like how Nagato rejuvinated after he absorbed Kirabi's chakra.



Restoring life force drained seems a rather different matter than healing physical damage. It didn't heal his actually damaged legs, merely undid what happened when Gedo Mazo drained him. It was also the first time we got a real look at Madara since he removed the sword, meaning Kishi had no opportunity to display his healing power until then. It makes sense, given how much of Hasharima's power Madara now wields.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> /insert Muu not being able to shoot jinton after splitting.



I said unlimited chakra, not that their chakra capacities became limitless.



> Which closed after Madara absorbed fodder shrouds.



It is unknown if those two are linked.


> Going by what Sasuke could do to him with a sword, yes I can.
> A destroys Madara.
> Here I said it



We'll see how it goes, they're likely to encounter each other soon. 



> Because Madara hasn't shown any durability on the level of Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o. And even if he did, Raikage'd still chop him in half as he did to Sauce's Suzy.



So you _assume_ he'll be destroyed. 



> I attributed that to Madara absorbing Bijuu chakra. Sort of like how Nagato rejuvinated after he absorbed Kirabi's chakra.



Why totally ignore Hashirama's canonical regeneration power? Or even SM's healing?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I said unlimited chakra, not that their chakra capacities became limitless.


Whats the difference ? 

Unless you believe a single jinton takes 50% of Muu's chakra capacity, then it means his chakra pool which was split in half hadn't fully rejuvenated by then, he used some other jutsu priorly afterall.




> It is unknown if those two are linked.



They are linked as in the Nagato incident I mentioned.

And while it may also be the Hashi regen thing, I think it would be emphasized if it was. It should be a jutsu afterall, sort of like Tsunade's Byakugou(or whatever that thing is called).



> We'll see how it goes, they're likely to encounter each other soon.


Well obviously Madara won't get his back broken.
But then, they won't fight with purely taijutsu. And A is missing an arm, so he won't be able to use those grapple moves 





> So you _assume_ he'll be destroyed.


Yes, based on manga evidence ofc.



> Why totally ignore Hashirama's canonical regeneration power? Or even SM's healing?



SM doesn't heal wounds so fast. At least not that I know of.

It might be Hash's regen, but it is more likely that it is the absorbtion regen, given it healed right after it absorbed the shroud.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Whats the difference ?
> 
> Unless you believe a single jinton takes 50% of Muu's chakra capacity, then it means his chakra pool which was split in half hadn't fully rejuvenated by then, he used some other jutsu priorly afterall.



Unlimited chakra = chakra recovers extremely fast. Unlimited chakra capacity, Muu would be making Juubi+ sized Jinton. 




> They are linked as in the Nagato incident I mentioned.
> 
> And while it may also be the Hashi regen thing, I think it would be emphasized if it was. It should be a jutsu afterall, sort of like Tsunade's Byakugou(or whatever that thing is called).



Nagato's jutsu works by reversing chakra flow; in essence Nagato absorbs the physical and spiritual energies that goes into chakra. We don't know if Madara's jutsu functions this way.

Madara recovered without using seals, shortly after absorbing Hashirama's power. Doesn't that imply something?



> Well obviously Madara won't get his back broken.
> But then, they won't fight with purely taijutsu. And A is missing an arm, so he won't be able to use those grapple moves








> Yes, based on manga evidence ofc.



Getting pierced by a sharp object doesn't mean you'll be broken into pieces should a giant fist hit you... Especially if you have two healing factors and a durability factor.
Wasn't Madara hit by A before? 



> SM doesn't heal wounds so fast. At least not that I know of.
> 
> It might be Hash's regen, but it is more likely that it is the absorbtion regen, given it healed right after it absorbed the shroud.



We know SM heals though, that is worth considering.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Unlimited chakra = chakra recovers extremely fast. Unlimited chakra capacity, Muu would be making Juubi+ sized Jinton.


I agree. So most of Hashirama's chakra could be missing.




> Nagato's jutsu works by reversing chakra flow; in essence Nagato absorbs the physical and spiritual energies that goes into chakra. We don't know if Madara's jutsu functions this way.
> 
> Madara recovered without using seals, shortly after absorbing Hashirama's power. Doesn't that imply something?



I just think that the emphasis on jutsu absorption and healing was more deliberate than the sealless Hashirama healing.




> Getting pierced by a sharp object doesn't mean you'll be broken into pieces should a giant fist hit you... Especially if you have two healing factors and a durability factor.
> Wasn't Madara hit by A before?


Of course it doesn't. But the thing is, Raikage can also use piercing attacks because of his Raiton shroud. And he has more devastating attacks than a mere punch, like liger bomb.
And as far as I remember A never hit Madara. Madara blocked a couple of hits though and that was it.




> We know SM heals though, that is worth considering.



We've never seen SM close a flesh wound like that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree. So most of Hashirama's chakra could be missing.



Chakra regeneration appears to be fast for Edo Tensei. Hence Itachi wasn't huffing and puffing after a few MS jutsu.




> I just think that the emphasis on jutsu absorption and healing was more deliberate than the sealless Hashirama healing.



They might be linked, but then again we can't discount the Hashirama healing factor. Nor can we discount the SM healing factor. In time, we'll know what to discount.



> Of course it doesn't. But the thing is, Raikage can also use piercing attacks because of his Raiton shroud. And he has more devastating attacks than a mere punch, like liger bomb.
> And as far as I remember A never hit Madara. Madara blocked a couple of hits though and that was it.



One... two.

I don't see Madara deviated... do you? Now bear in mind that the Madara ITT, has the benefits of SM.



> We've never seen SM close a flesh wound like that.



Doesn't mean we should exclude it.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 10, 2013)

Enough already, guys. Madara broke out of Hashirama's Senpo: Myojinmon and Sai's Fuinjutsu: Fushi Indan with nothing more than raw strength, even before absorbing Hashirama's SM chakra. The guy was also fast enough to halt EMS Sasuke's Kenjutsu with ihs bare hands, in spite of EMS Sasuke being capable of reacting to and attacking someone like Juubi Obito.

Ei stands no chance against him.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hashirama has chakra reserves equal to 100% Kurama, Minato and Naruto... I don't think A will be a problem.



Fanfiction. 


He = 1 guy = Naruto. 
I would think you know the different between "He" and "They", no? 
or maybe "His" and "their"


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Fanfiction.
> 
> 
> He = 1 guy = Naruto.
> ...



Whose Naruto linking his chakra with? Hint: Kurama is the common conduit.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Whose Naruto linking his chakra with? Hint: Kurama is the common conduit.



Sorry dear, Naruto has 50% of Kurama not 100% that's the first thing. 

Second, when Naruto gave some of his chakra to the SA, do you see madara saying
it's their chakra now sine they have it, or do you see him state that it's Naruto's chakra? 
even Sakura did not say it's their chakra, but she said it's Naruto's. 

As such, if Hashi was talking about all of them he would have said their chakra not HIS!
because even if Minato and his Kurama gave Naruto and his Kurama some of their chakra it's
still not Naruto's. 

Proof of that when Hinata said the chakra they have is not only Naruto's chakra, so if it were as
you think she would have said "Yes, all of this chakra is Naruto's chakra" But she did not. 

Hashi said "He" and then he said "His" and by the way he did not even know about Kurama's
chakra when he made that statement, but he recognize it after that. 

Conclusion. 

BM Naruto's chakra = Hashi's.


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## Ersa (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Sorry dear, Naruto has 50% of Kurama not 100% that's the first thing.
> 
> Second, when Naruto gave some of his chakra to the SA, do you see madara saying
> it's their chakra now sine they have it, or do you see him state that it's Naruto's chakra?
> ...


BM Naruto's total chakra is a shit tonne of chakra though especially for a non-Bijuu shinobi. Remember the Kyuubi can only give a portion of it's chakra to Naruto before it has to recharge. And that's enough to fire off multiple Bijuudamas, clones, FRS,etc. It took the strongest Uchiha ever and 100% Kyuubi to wear Hashirama out.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> BM Naruto's total chakra is a shit tonne of chakra though especially for a non-Bijuu shinobi. Remember the Kyuubi can only give a portion of it's chakra to Naruto before it has to recharge. And that's enough to fire off multiple Bijuudamas, clones, FRS,etc. It took the strongest Uchiha ever and 100% Kyuubi to wear Hashirama out.



True. 
but the strongest uchiha ever is obito.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Sorry dear, Naruto has 50% of Kurama not 100% that's the first thing.
> 
> Second, when Naruto gave some of his chakra to the SA, do you see madara saying
> it's their chakra now sine they have it, or do you see him state that it's Naruto's chakra?
> ...



Naruto linked with Minato's chakra using both Kuramas made Hashirama think Naruto's chakra levels are close to his. That pretty much says a lot. 

Naruto using BM chakra counts as Naruto's chakra. So Naruto using 100% Kurama chakra would still be sensed as Naruto's chakra. Minato doesn't have the years of mixing Naruto had, so obviously the 2 Kurama + Naruto would count as Naruto.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto linked with Minato's chakra using both Kuramas made Hashirama think Naruto's chakra levels are close to his. That pretty much says a lot.
> 
> Naruto using BM chakra counts as Naruto's chakra. So Naruto using 100% Kurama chakra would still be sensed as Naruto's chakra. Minato doesn't have the years of mixing Naruto had, so obviously the 2 Kurama + Naruto would count as Naruto.



Kurama inside Minato gave SOME of his chakra to Kurama inside Minato who was NOT at full
power and he was low in the chakra. Reread the chapters, Naruto couldn't even use his BM before
that. 

And if you see the Yin/Yang simple only some of each side goes to the other. 

Qestion, If Naruto already has all the chakra, then how or why on God's green earth did Minato
need to give him his chakra again after the Tree sucked Naruto's chakra?  

- Lol, that's BS my dear, even the manga stated otherwise
Sealing tags
if kishi believe in this nonsense he would not have put Hinata stating
"It's not just Naruto's chakra" 

why did not he make Hinata say "Yes, this is all Naruto's chakra" ? 
you still did not answer this question!

Edit: Naruto is also linked to every single one in the SA, does that mean 
Hashi's chakra =  Naruto, 100% Kurama, Minato, B and the 8tails, Sasuke, all the SA together? 

Remember they are all linked to Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Kurama inside Minato gave SOME of his chakra to Kurama inside Minato who was NOT at full
> power and he was low in the chakra. Reread the chapters, Naruto couldn't even use his BM before
> that.



The fist bump indicated a link. They were linking their chakra; both Kurama together make the full Kurama.



> Edit: Naruto is also linked to every single one in the SA, does that mean
> Hashi's chakra =  Naruto, 100% Kurama, Minato, B and the 8tails, Sasuke, all the SA together?
> 
> Remember they are all linked to Naruto.



Obviously Hashirama referred to the Hiraishin feat, which involved KCM Minato (Kurama chakra), 2 Kurama and Naruto. The Kurama shroud which doesn't look like Bee gets sensed as Naruto's chakra.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The fist bump indicated a link. They were linking their chakra; both Kurama together make the full Kurama.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously Hashirama referred to the Hiraishin feat, which involved KCM Minato (Kurama chakra), 2 Kurama and Naruto. The Kurama shroud which doesn't look like Bee gets sensed as Naruto's chakra.



How was he referring to FTG feat when it did not even happen when he made the statement? 

but anyway, I think we will have to agree to disagree.


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## αce (Dec 11, 2013)

Okay well, after this last chapter, I'm not sure how anyone can argue for A here.


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## Kai (Dec 11, 2013)

Thread was a success.

A comparable fight? Not so much as Madara's performance keeps getting better.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 11, 2013)

Fuck yeah.


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## Veracity (Dec 11, 2013)

That chapter seemed like a complete Asspull. 

And damn makes me wonder how powerful Alive Hashirama really was. I mean beating that serious version of the Madara that blitzed SM Naruto, while using PS and with Kurama.


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## Rocky (Dec 11, 2013)

We kind of saw alive Hashirama fight.


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## Lurko (Dec 11, 2013)

No more questions now.


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## ueharakk (Dec 11, 2013)

So do we all agree that Madara wins?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So do we all agree that Madara wins?



We haven't seen responses from the Ei supporters yet, so we'll just wait and see. But, they'll have to make some pretty damn good arguments to convince me.


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## Veracity (Dec 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> We kind of saw alive Hashirama fight.



Thanks smart ass 

But during said battle(which was mostly off paneled), we never got a true indication of Madara or Hashirama's speed relative to others.

Considering a Casual Madara could block a V2 Ay strike, and a completely blinded Madara could absolutely blitz SM Naruto(known for high end reactions) then its logically safe to Assume SM Hashirama is around V2 Ay speed. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it would actually make sense.


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## Ersa (Dec 11, 2013)

Like it was even debatable before.

Now it's like a game of SSB with Bowser vs 400% Mario.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 11, 2013)

αce said:


> Okay well, after this last chapter, I'm not sure how anyone can argue for A here.



I still do 

A's Karate chop > Sasuke's sword. 



Kai said:


> Thread was a success.
> 
> A comparable fight? Not so much as Madara's performance keeps getting better.



Replace Bijuu's with A. 
A plays pinball with Madara after he rips him in half.


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## Lurko (Dec 11, 2013)

You got to be kidding me?


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## Trojan (Dec 11, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I still do
> 
> A's Karate chop > Sasuke's sword.
> 
> ...



you still can say something like this
The Bijuus are weaker without hosts because they can't focus their power. U_U


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 11, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Latest Chapter Spoilers; response to Grimmjowsensei_ 



So... about those durability feats. Unless you wanna tell me A's attacks = Bijuu attacks.


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## Kai (Dec 11, 2013)

A couldn't hurt Madara even if the latter just stood there, and I'm serious. Madara will stand up again after every one of his assaults.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 11, 2013)

Kai said:


> A couldn't hurt Madara even if the latter just stood there, and I'm serious. Madara will stand up again after every one of his assaults.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Spoiler*: _Latest Chapter Spoilers; response to Grimmjowsensei_
> 
> 
> 
> So... about those durability feats. *Unless you wanna tell me A's attacks = Bijuu attacks*.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I honestly don't see what changed in the last chapter. 

Madara hasn't gotten more durable since last week, we can all conclude that Sasuke's sword > Bijuu attacks 

Also Madara's durability is nothing special compared to top tiers.
That same sword which easily pierced Madara, bounced off A's neck in its chidori charged(which made the sword special in the first place) form.


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## αce (Dec 11, 2013)

Ignoring the fact that he can use Susano-o while blind. Yeah, A can't do anything.


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 11, 2013)

Susanoos aren't shit for Ei.

He can fight 5 with one hand.


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## Lurko (Dec 11, 2013)

Just when you think someone would get it...


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## αce (Dec 11, 2013)

And then Madara uses a sage mode enhanced flower tree world and he dies.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 11, 2013)

Let's say that even with Madara's speed, close quarters skill, and sage enhanced sensing, Ei manages to land solid blows on him that aren't blocked somehow despite not being able to do that before. Let's say that having a Senju and sage enhanced body doesn't make his body durable enough to withstand Ei's _non-piercing_ attacks. Let's say that his endurance and Hasharima healing powers can't keep him standing. Let's say that Fuuinjutsu Kyuuin/Shinra Tensei can't defend quickly or consistently (respectively) enough. Let's say that Madara's Katons are of no use and Ei can fight blind in Madara's heated smokescreen. 

Even then, Ei still has to deal with sage powered Mokuton, Bunshins, and Susano'o. And Madara fights perfectly well blind. How is fighting blind Madara that much different than fighting normal Madara?


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## Kai (Dec 11, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Susanoos aren't shit for Ei.
> 
> He can fight 5 with one hand.


If you remember, A was on the losing end against those 5. lol


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 11, 2013)

Madara just showed resilience to a lesser extent durability that is....not even human .

A would be so hard pressed to put this man down just using physical blows...which is all he has. 

Susanoo with leg usage which A cannot break convincingly enough to make a dent in madara make A look silly...then madara rips him apart with 2-4 swords(one can tear through bijuu sized sand prison's).


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## Jak N Blak (Dec 11, 2013)

If we allow Madara Mokuton and all that jazz. Ofcourse he would dom.

But I'm sure this thread was created to discuss Madara using only speed & Taijutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 11, 2013)

αce said:


> Ignoring the fact that he can use Susano-o while blind. Yeah, A can't do anything.



Well this thread was made last week so no one assumed Madara could use Susano'o.

This was basically SM Madara with chakra absorption vs A.

So yeah, If Madara can use Susano'o in this match up A has no chance.
But that wasn't the point of this thread.
I believe it was mainly created to test Madara's power only with what he had last chapter.


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## αce (Dec 11, 2013)

Oh wait thread OP says no Mokuton.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 11, 2013)

If Madara is restricted to solely melee combat, then what will probably happen is this. 

Ei will amp up his shroud to max and try to blitz Madara from behind. However, even with a distraction, Madara last time was able to block Ei. Now that was likely not Ei's full speed, and Madara had eyes, but sage sensing should make up for eyes and the fact there is no distraction means he has more time to block. Plus, he now also has sage enhanced speed, which means he will be able to not only block, but intercept. With sage strength he can withstand the force and grab hold of Ei, and then drain the shroud from him in an instant. And he can continue to drain him until he is weakened enough to kill him with a black rod. 

So blind Madara restricted to melee defeats Ei with low difficulty ten times out of ten.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> So blind Madara restricted to melee gets played like a soccer ball  ten times out of ten.




I agree



In actuality this fight would remind us of how Gaara was bounced around like a pinball by Lee in part 1. Madara being the Gaara this time ofc


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## Kai (Dec 11, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree
> 
> 
> 
> In actuality this fight would remind us of how Gaara was bounced around like a pinball by Lee in part 1. Madara being the Gaara this time ofc


Pinball ended up winning


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 12, 2013)

Kai said:


> Pinball ended up winning



touche


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Dec 12, 2013)

Subtle is has it.  

Madara could block Ei's shots with the edo power cap, and now he's got his full power plus sage enhancements.  Hashirama's sage enhancements. He can beat pretty much anyone at their own game by doing it better than them.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 12, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Susanoos aren't shit for Ei.
> 
> He can fight 5 with one hand.



He was also about to die but oonaki saved him


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## Jagger (Dec 12, 2013)

Susano'O would have died if it wasn't for Onoki, that's pretty much obvious. 

Also, the point of this thread is just a taijutsu match, thus, no Susano'O or Mokuton. A might still win, but I am not so sure, after all, he did survived being played around like a ball by the Bijuu.


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## Krippy (Dec 12, 2013)

If this is still a taijutsu match, then Madara still loses his head.


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## Jagger (Dec 12, 2013)

Pft. He calls Zetsu to get a new one. :blindmadara


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## Krippy (Dec 12, 2013)

dat mr.potatohead


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## Jagger (Dec 12, 2013)

It's funny because you'd think Zetsu is made of crushed potatoes.


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