# Hebi Sasuke vs Sick Itachi



## Eliyua23 (Oct 1, 2013)

restrictions: Susanoo 

Knowledge: Manga

location : Same As The Manga

mindset: IC 

Conditions: Itachi is not holding back

distane: same as the manga


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## Sadgoob (Oct 1, 2013)

You could restrict the entire Magekyō and Itachi would still win. Not only is he more proficient in every area barring bodily endurance, but Obito also made it very clear that Itachi's perception was especially honed for Sasuke, as he accounted for each and every one of Sasuke's contigencies before the fight even began.

If Itachi goes hard at Sasuke with layered genjutsu, clone feints, kunai curving, etc. then Sasuke's going down just as badly as he did against Killer Bee's swordsmanship. Itachi knows everything Sasuke's going to do before he does it, so there's no hope for Sasuke, even if you (incorrectly) believe he can compete skill-wise.

But just for the sake of talking about Tsukuyomi, Zetsu pointblank reasoned that the _only_ way Sasuke could have countered a superior dōjutsu's genjutsu would be by having more skill. Yet Danzō said Itachi was like the Heaven above Earth in that area. So obviously Itachi let Sasuke break out of his Tsukuyomi. 

Similarly, Obito stated that Itachi knew of Sasuke's contigencies, so not only did Itachi make his usage of Amaterasu very obvious, but he also carefully  so that Sasuke could use Oral Rebirth. If serious, he could have used a clone feint or even pegged Sasuke in the face with a flame  just like this.​


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 1, 2013)

Itachi stomps, frankly. If he was really trying to kill Sasuke, he could have done it in a heartbeat, Mangekyō or not.


I'm getting really tired of these stupid match-ups with either "_X_ character that Itachi stomps vs. Itachi," or "_X_ character that stomps Itachi vs Itachi." 


And then the overdone "Itachi vs Minato," "Itachi vs Tobirama," and the "Itachi vs Jiraiya," threads.


In fact, I'd be willing to bet the Battledome can't go 10 minutes without saying Itachi's name.


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## Trojan (Oct 1, 2013)

the same as in the manga. Sasuke wins.


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## Bonly (Oct 1, 2013)

I'd say Itachi more times then not. Obito already confirmed that if Itachi wanted to, he could've easily beat Sasuke anytime during that fight and I personally don't think Itachi needs Susanoo to make said statement true. Now I await for SSM12 



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> In fact, I'd be willing to bet the Battledome can't go 10 minutes without saying Itachi's name.



And there is nothing wrong with that. Our King, Lord Itachi is great and deserves to be talked about, all hail Itachi!


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 1, 2013)

Seriously? Base Itachi is superior to Hebi Sasuke now? I honestly can't deal with these forums. The Itachi fanboy wank has gotten to new levels of ridiculousness. I guess that's why no one posts here anymore.

Base Sasuke is arguably beating a base Itachi. Hebi Sasuke defeated Deidara for goodness sake. He would dominate a base Itachi. 

Now apparently per the manga Itachi held back MS wise however in what ways? Would oral rebirth still work? Could he still battle tsukiyomi? If this is the case, then Sasuke wins. If not then of course he wouldn't. If Susano was the extent of holding back then Sasuke likely wins the fight.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 1, 2013)

Base Sasuke almost died against Deidara. 

Base Itachi almost scuffed his cloak against Deidara.


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## Rosencrantz (Oct 1, 2013)

You mean against  an 11 year old Deidara? The one without knowledge of sharingan genjutsu? The one without the eye he trained to counter the genjutsu? The one without C4? Again this is why I can't deal with Itachi fanboys. Their arguments are laughable.


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## Rocky (Oct 1, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If Itachi goes hard at Sasuke with layered genjutsu, clone feints, kunai curving, etc. then Sasuke's going down just as badly as he did against Killer Bee's swordsmanship.



This is actually a really good comparison. I agree.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 1, 2013)

Bonly said:


> And there is nothing wrong with that. Our King, Lord Itachi is great and deserves to be talked about, all hail Itachi!



But the Heretics disgrace Our Dear King's name by spraying nonsense like Itachi losing against fodder like Hashirama. We should burn them in the black flames of _Amaterasu_.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 1, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> *You could restrict the entire Magekyō and Itachi would still win.* Not only is he more proficient in every area barring bodily endurance, but Obito also made it very clear that Itachi's perception was especially honed for Sasuke, as he accounted for each and every one of Sasuke's contigencies before the fight even began.​



LMAO, quit kidding yourself Itachi fan.

I recall Itachi being forced to utilize the MS several times within that bout.

Itachi's only success within that match, was with the implementation of the Mangekyou. 

Counted for each one of Sasuke's contingencies before the match begin A? Unless Itachi's "perception" allows him to see the future, such statement here is likely an exaggeration, on Obito's part.

I don't think Itachi planned to do anything beyond extract Oro, for which he had to work to do. I don't think Itachi planned any of his injuries, as he seemed very interested in avoiding contact with many of Sasuke's jutsu at all cost. 

Hiding behind statements isn't going to do you much good, against me buddy.
Iphr0z3nI has a license in these dealings.




> If Itachi goes hard at Sasuke with layered genjutsu, clone feints, kunai curving, etc. then Sasuke's going down just as badly as he did against Killer Bee's swordsmanship. Itachi knows everything Sasuke's going to do before he does it, so there's no hope for Sasuke, even if you (incorrectly) believe he can compete skill-wise.


If Itachi goes hard with layered genjutsu, he'd still fail. Clone feints, he tried, Kunai's he tried, and Sasuke handle both extremely well.

He followed all the above with a Tsukuyomi, yet the results was still. 

What does killerbee's swordmanship have to do with Itachi, does Itachi possesses such swordmanship? It's quite clear that Itachi didn't know everything Sasuke could do, hence why he was pressed THIS FAR. But Sasuke certainly had some idea of what Itachi could do, hence is why he was so successful against things he knew about, and unsuccessful against things he didn't. Sasuke had a game plan too, and given his idealism of big bro. I'd think his knowledge of him was quite extensive.

Sasuke's success in that fight, is primarily due to do being prepared hence is why Itachi didn't quite gain the advantage up until Susano'o. 



> But just for the sake of talking about Tsukuyomi, Zetsu pointblank reasoned that the _only_ way Sasuke could have countered a superior dōjutsu's genjutsu would be by having more skill. Yet Danzō said Itachi was like the Heaven above Earth in that area. So obviously Itachi let Sasuke break out of his Tsukuyomi.


So skill in breaking genjutsu, and casting them is one in the same?
Sasuke was alluded to being capable of breaking Tsukuyomi, by Itachi and Kishi within the databook.



> Similarly, Obito stated that Itachi knew of Sasuke's contigencies, so not only did Itachi make his usage of Amaterasu very obvious, but he also carefully avoided Sasuke's face so that Sasuke could use Oral Rebirth. If serious, he could have used a clone feint or even pegged Sasuke in the face with a flame here just like this.


Knew of Sasuke's contingencies? How so? There's no logical way in which Itachi could have know Sasuke's arsenal, he was seeing much of it for the first time as implied."You've gotten much stronger"

No, Itachi likely relied on faith. As he did when he was doing this.As he did when he left Sasuke to Konoha, as he did when he pushed him into the hands of Oro. 

Itachi was task with "taking care of Sasuke" yet he mostly relied on others to do such task, there had to be some degree of faith or brand of "tough love" he was administering because Itachi wasn't very merciful to Sasuke in the slightest, as even Kisame noted.

You forget, that although Itachi wasn't out to kill Sasuke he still needed. When you quote Obito please quote all of it.

You forget, that although Itachi wasn't out to skill Sasuke he still wasn't. Thre was some degree of fate by itachi because he never made Sasuke's life easier following the massacre. 



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Itachi stomps, frankly. If he was really trying to kill Sasuke, he could have done it in a heartbeat, Mangekyō or not.


As you're name implies you're probably wrong here, mate.

Itachi didn't stomp in the manga, and I doubt he does here.

There isn't a thing Itachi possesses outside of Susano'o that Sasuke wasn't aware of. There isn't a thing Itachi showed in his Edo Tensei showcasing, that would have change the outcome of that match before Susano'o.

Sasuke studied Itachi quite well, hence is why he believed himself to be capable of defeating Itachi at the time.

Sasuke studied Itachi quite well and it shows from their respective match. It shows from their fight against Kabuto. He even opted to mock Itachi within set match. 




> I'm getting really tired of these stupid match-ups with either "_X_ character that Itachi stomps vs. Itachi," or "_X_ character that stomps Itachi vs Itachi."


I'm getting tired of schooling set fanbase, on set character.



> And then the overdone "Itachi vs Minato," "Itachi vs Tobirama," and the "Itachi vs Jiraiya," threads.


Then simply don't post in them.




> In fact, I'd be willing to bet the Battledome can't go 10 minutes without saying Itachi's name.


But Itachi character is very popular in the battledome, along with Sasuke and a few others. 

They draw in posters, and allow many individuals to showcase their "craft" to others.

It's fun, and if you utilize it correctly. Very good practice on how to post a proper argument.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 1, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I'd say Itachi more times then not. Obito already confirmed that if Itachi wanted to, *he could've easily beat Sasuke anytime during that fight* and I personally don't think Itachi needs Susanoo to make said statement true. Now I await for SSM12
> 
> 
> 
> And there is nothing wrong with that. Our King, Lord Itachi is great and deserves to be talked about, all hail Itachi!



Where is the bold ever stated. I'll give you the panel point to me where the word easily or anytime was used. Iphr0z3nI want's to see it.

Please don't lie, if you firmly believe in Itachi's superiority you wouldn't need to misconstrue facts, to get your point across. Lying not only damages your credibility, they draw "unwanted" attention to your argument.


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## Trojan (Oct 1, 2013)

did not Itachi stated the he would have been died without his Susanoo? O_O


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## Cord (Oct 2, 2013)

Itachi wins—but he's absolutely going to need the Magekyō Sharingan to accomplish that. Without either Amaterasu or Susano'o, Itachi is not beating someone who has all the means to survive the damages Itachi can put with just his base techniques (which I'd doubt would give Sasuke any dent, anyway). Set aside his _Ten no Juin_ and other Orochimaru-acquired defenses.



Strategoob said:


> Sasuke's going down just as badly as he did against Killer Bee's swordsmanship.



Except that Sasuke was severely weakened beforehand. Had it not been for that, he would've bested Bee better. And that's Sasuke with inferior physical attributes due to Orochimaru's powers being stripped from him. 

The comparison doesn't work, Strat.


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## Rocky (Oct 2, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Except that Sasuke was severely weakened beforehand.



Severely? 



> Had it not been for that, he would've bested Bee better.



I don't know how you drew than conclusion. Bee was blatantly superior, regardless of Sasuke's minor setbacks. 




> And that's Sasuke with inferior physical attributes due to Orochimaru's powers being stripped from him.



Sasuke didn't get any worse physically, nor do I remember it ever being stated that Ssauke got any better physically from absorbing Orochimaru in the first place.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 2, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> As you're name implies you're probably wrong here, mate.
> 
> Itachi didn't stomp in the manga, and I doubt he does here.


Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. He set himself up for Sasuke to end his life.


> There isn't a thing Itachi possesses outside of Susano'o that Sasuke wasn't aware of. There isn't a thing Itachi showed in his Edo Tensei showcasing, that would have change the outcome of that match before Susano'o.


Being aware of something doesn't mean Sasuke can juts act like it's nothing.


> Sasuke studied Itachi quite well, hence is why he believed himself to be capable of defeating Itachi at the time.
> 
> Sasuke studied Itachi quite well and it shows from their respective match. It shows from their fight against Kabuto. He even opted to mock Itachi within set match.


But guess who studied Sasuke just as much, and who can implement said knowledge better than he can?

I really don't see Hebi Sasuke having a shot at Itachi. In fact, Itachi's illness and unwillingness to end Sasuke are really the only reasons why Itachi lost.



> I'm getting tired of schooling set fanbase, on set character.


I haven't seen you school anyone.



> Then simply don't post in them.


They still just spam the battledome. There are at least six Itachi threads just on the first page.




> But Itachi character is very popular in the battledome, along with Sasuke and a few others.
> 
> They draw in posters, and allow many individuals to showcase their "craft" to others.
> 
> It's fun, and if you utilize it correctly. Very good practice on how to post a proper argument.


A proper argument? In an Itachi thread?


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## Cord (Oct 2, 2013)

Maybe not severely. But he was still weakened regardless. 

When Sasuke fought Itachi, all of Orochimaru's powers were forcibly extracted from him with Orochimaru himself, technically surfacing out besides being forced to exhaust almost all of his chakra for that single fight alone. 

That kind of physical exhaustion is not something that will heal almost immediately with simple application of medical ninjutsu. Otherwise, Kakashi's confinement to the hospital due to an extended mangekyo usage wouldn't have taken him weeks. Leave aside the fact that he also obtained some sort of psychological trauma brought about by Tobi's revelation about his brother.

Not saying that he would've won against Bee, just that he would've _faired_ better.


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## Rocky (Oct 2, 2013)

Cordelia said:


> Maybe not severely. But he was still weakened regardless.
> 
> When Sasuke fought Itachi, all of Orochimaru's powers were forcibly extracted from him with Orochimaru himself, technically surfacing out besides being forced to exhaust almost all of his chakra for that single fight alone.
> 
> ...



Stamina issues as such are inconsistent. Kakashi was dead tired from using Kamui (and also a bit messed up in the head from the reveal), yet one high-five from Naruto later he's beating up Tobi.

I grant you that Sasuke was weakened, and that he may have done better had he not been, but Bee would've mopped him up regardless. That was Strat's point at its core. Sasuke was outclassed against Bee's swordplay alone, and Itachi has comparable weapon skill to that Bee along with layered illusions & deceptive clone usage.


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## Turrin (Oct 2, 2013)

The match would probably come down to whether or not Sasuke could counter a Tsukuyomi used by an Itachi who isn't holding back. In the manga cannon he countered, but Zetsu's explanation for how doesn't necessarily fit considering Itachi should be the one with superior skill with Sharingan, unless of course CS powers is somehow what enabled Sasuke's countering. So Idk for sure what would happen there. But outside of that Sasuke has Itachi (Susano'o restricted) out gunned given his CS/Hebi powers & Kirin.

People saying Itachi w/o MS can beat Hebi Sasuke are just trolling. Sasuke's w/ CS2 is not losing out to Itachi in CQC. CS2 Sasuke using Shunshin should be more than capable of keeping up with Itachi and any Chidori Nagashi as well as CS-Snake can defend Sasuke against any surprise attacks, while Raiton flow would give Sasuke the advantage in any clash of weapons. Sasuke's CS2 wings can defend any Mid/Long range attacks Base Itachi would throw at him. In a contest of Katons Sasuke already displayed that with CS2 he would overwhelm Itachi. Suitons would probably prove a great handicap against Sasuke than useful given Sasuke's mastery of Raitons. This is not to say Itachi would get owned as with his quick hand-seals and bushin he can keep himself going in the fight for quite some time, but as the fight drags out that gives Sasuke more chances to prep Kirin something Itachi w/ MS has no answer for. Additionally Itachi would struggle to deal with Boss Sized Snakes while at the same time dealing with CS2 Sasuke. 

So yeah Hebi Sasuke would beat Base Itachi. W/ MS it comes down to the effectiveness of Tsukuyomi as Hebi Sasuke can counter Amaterasu with Oral Rebirth and blocking LOS with large Katons as displayed in the actual fight.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 2, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Severely?


It was serious enough for the author to mention it, was it not?



> I don't know how you drew than conclusion. Bee was blatantly superior, regardless of Sasuke's minor setbacks.


In Kenjutsu? He certainly was, however Sasuke only tried such approach as he was trying to capture Hachibi alive? He was attempting to disarm Hachibi, as he did previously.

Itachi had some success utilizing his strengths. Sasuke has strength in set area, as well. And avoided engaging Hachibi in the Kenjutsu department, once he realized he was at a disadvantage.

Of all the options he has with his raiton affinity, you mean to tell me this is the best approach he could have come up with, after being bested the first time by bee in kenjutsu.

Note that Sasuke successfully deployed a NONE LETHAL chidori, an attack that was able to pierce through the Raikage's raiton clad armor.

Regardless of Sasuke's "minor" setbacks. Sasuke's approach and his later injuries was likely do to wanting to capture Bee alive. Distancing the two, Sasuke could have likely taken a more lethal approach to fighting bee. Distancing the two, Sasuke would have likely ended the match with the implementation of a chidori designed to pierce opposed to shock.



> Sasuke didn't get any worse physically, nor do I remember it ever being stated that Ssauke got any better physically from absorbing Orochimaru in the first place.


So Sasuke didn't use the CS for defense?

I think that was it's primary defense, if I recall.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 2, 2013)

If you look at their basic abilities, they're pretty close. Sasuke edges out Itachi's raw power with basic Ninjutsu (and probably Genjutsu) thanks to the Juin, which the third databook indicated had helped Sasuke to overpower him in the Katon struggle. In terms of Taijutsu, while Itachi does have a significant advantage in skill, the Juin sorta compensates for that too because it boosts Sasuke's speed, strength, and durability up a level. Sasuke was able to see through Itachi's basic Genjutsu without any apparent effort, so I really don't think that will serve much of a point aside from creating a momentary break in concentration.

On the other hand, Itachi's poor health and stamina are counterbalanced by the massive strain imposed on Sasuke by the Juin, the chakra he needed to keep Orochimaru suppressed, and the aggressiveness with which he actively pursued Itachi. In the manga, Sasuke was the one to run out of chakra first, but it's important to note that he wasted the last of it on three Gouryuuka that he shot off into the sky to prep Kirin.

Speaking of Kirin, Itachi knows about it this time. He can keep Amaterasu focused within a tighter radius around Sasuke's body and also put the flames out to ensure that they don't spread. Without Amaterasu covering the surrounding area, there won't be any heat to generate an ascending air current, which means no thundercloud. Sasuke would have to make it himself, which would require him to exhaust even more of his chakra through Katon Ninjutsu- if he's even capable of doing it himself in the first place. I really don't think Sasuke would opt for that approach, knowing what it would cost him.

Consequently, I don't think Sasuke would end up wasting the last dregs of his chakra shooting fireballs into the sky. He and Itachi are going to be running on fumes by the time Amaterasu has been used and Oral Rebirth has been used to escape it.

I think it might also be worth mentioning that Itachi knows about Sasuke's rigged trap shuriken this time around and thus isn't likely to take a hit from it. That means no wound in his thigh to slow him down, so he should be able to continue dodging Sasuke's attacks pretty smoothly throughout the whole fight (even if he does end up getting his Tsukuyomi broken again).

On that note, I actually think that the outcome of this match could depend entirely upon whether or not Sasuke can still break Tsukuyomi with Itachi going all-out. If he can't, then Itachi's got a decisive way to put him down. This is a relatively risk-free option because Itachi already used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke once before in their canon fight and presumably should know whether or not he is capable of defeating Sasuke with his best effort put into that Jutsu. If he can't, he can simply decide not to use it, which would probably benefit him in the long run by sparing him the dulled reflexes, blurred vision, and head-splitting pain that come with having it broken. So it's either a good bet or it's another pitfall he can simply avoid.

If Tsukuyomi doesn't work, it's going to be a long and difficult battle for the both of them and it could probably go either way depending on how it plays out.


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## Kai (Oct 2, 2013)

Tobi said Itachi aimed to push Sasuke to his absolute limit in order for him to be freed from the Cursed Seal, so Itachi was holding back against Sasuke to the point before Susano'o was even released. 

Susano'o cleaned house with what emerged from the Cursed Seal after the fact Sasuke's chakra completely depleted. To those that thought Tobi was just referring to Susano'o when he said Itachi was holding back, the sequence of events doesn't add up to that standard at all.

That being said, Itachi loses if I'm not mistaken that Yamata isn't restricted. Itachi shouldn't have the chakra or life force to eradicate the giant eight heads and kill Sasuke while sick without Susano'o on deck.


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## Cord (Oct 2, 2013)

Just realized that Susano'o is restricted.  Yes, I actually didn't read the OP.



Rocky said:


> Stamina issues as such are inconsistent. Kakashi was dead tired from using Kamui (and also a bit messed up in the head from the reveal), yet one high-five from Naruto later he's beating up Tobi.



Everything else became inconsistent the moment the war began. It's the point in the manga where the author blatantly stopped caring about consistency. There's a different case prior to that.



> I grant you that Sasuke was weakened, and that he may have done better had he not been, but Bee would've mopped him up regardless. That was Strat's point at its core. Sasuke was outclassed against Bee's swordplay alone, and Itachi has comparable weapon skill to that Bee along with layered illusions & deceptive clone usage.



Because the CS that's supposed to amplify is speed and power, snake meat shields and Juin itself to mount in his defense—aren't enough to keep him from having his organs jammed up here?

Sasuke was able to overcome and counter the layered genjutsu illusions and deceptive clone usage as per canon. The only argument you can make is that Itachi held back the entire fight during that time, and that's the only thing that would justify those feats being efficient here. I would partially agree to that, but only with Amaterasu and Susano'o being taken into account.

The power level between base Itachi and Hebi Sasuke is not wide and the latter is arguably even superior in that regard. He needs the Mangekyo to beat this version of Sasuke.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 2, 2013)

Cordelia, Turrin, and Iph01121, you all keep stating that its canon that Sasuke overcame Itachi such and such, but don't seem to factor in the little detail that those feats are worthless because Obito pointblank said that Itachi rigged the fight from start to finish.

Sasuke overcoming Itachi's shuriken to Amaterasu is no more canon than Susano'o and the Totsuka Sword being useless against a drained Sasuke. Itachi was acting the entire time, and purposefully striving to make Sasuke believe that his victory was legitimate.​


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## KibaforHokage (Oct 2, 2013)

Itachi wins hands down


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 2, 2013)

Like the manga, Sasuke destroys Itachi. The condition of Itachi holding back is meaningless as he is not allowed to use the jutsu he was actually holding back (Susanoo).



Strategoob said:


> Cordelia, Turrin, and Iph01121, you all keep stating that its canon that Sasuke overcame Itachi such and such, but don't seem to factor in the little detail that those feats are worthless because Obito pointblank said that Itachi rigged the fight from start to finish.
> 
> Sasuke overcoming Itachi's shuriken to Amaterasu is no more canon than Susano'o and the Totsuka Sword being useless against a drained Sasuke. Itachi was acting the entire time, and purposefully striving to make Sasuke believe that his victory was legitimate.​



Actually the mistake you're making is dismissing those feats because of a statement. What Turrin, Cordelia and IpHr0z3nI are doing is actually looking at the fight to see how the comment makes sense rather than just blindly speculate with said comment.
In other words they're not dismissing a vital piece of evidence (the fight) to speculate massively on another (a comment), their arguments show that piecing together both pieces of evidence to reach a reasonable conclusion. 

Sasuke overcoming all Itachi's jutsu that were _used to attack him_ was canon. There is no credible evidence to believe otherwise. The *only* thing you can safely say was held back was Susanoo- but that wasn't used to attack Sasuke.

You can argue Itachi was faking the limitations of _*all *his jutsu_ in the entire fight. However you'd be wrong.


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## Van Konzen (Oct 2, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Where is the bold ever stated. I'll give you the panel point to me where the word easily or anytime was used. Iphr0z3nI want's to see it.
> 
> Please don't lie, if you firmly believe in Itachi's superiority you wouldn't need to misconstrue facts, to get your point across. Lying not only damages your credibility, they draw "unwanted" attention to your argument.





fixed.. 

your Sauce admitted it that he would have been
killed by Itachi several times already..

and Itachi just staged play his death..
controlling the match and the outcome if it is just
equal or above an easy fight fanboy..

Susanoo isnt even needed to beat dat Sauce.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 2, 2013)

Sasuke came close to dying dozens of times during the fight. 

It's a ludicrous, baseless position to believe Itachi only held back in one aspect of the fight, and that aspect happens to arbitrarily be susanoo usage. Everything, _everything_ points to Itachi holding back in a multitude of ways. Itachi factoring in Sasuke's contingencies into his own plans, sasuke claiming he was "almost killed multiple times" but always finding a way to survive. To each there own though.


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## Garcher (Oct 2, 2013)

Itachi stomps him so easily


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 2, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Everything, _everything_ points to Itachi holding back in a multitude of ways.



Everything, _everything_ points to Itachi holding back Susanoo. Adding more to the list is nothing but unsupported speculation.


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## Katou (Oct 2, 2013)

The hell is with this!? This already happened. . .though Sasuke ended up winning because of Itachi's " I'm going all out Act " 

if it Itachi was Blood Lusted at that Time. . Itachi Kills Sasuke with ease


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## Sadgoob (Oct 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Everything, _everything_ points to Itachi holding back Susanoo. Adding more to the list is nothing but unsupported speculation.



Don't be Gump. The very fact that Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke means that all of his jutsu that failed to be lethal may have been, and the very fact that he wanted to convincingly lose to Sasuke means that all of Sasuke's triumphs over Itachi lose their validity.

Even if Obito didn't pointblank say that the 'always amazing' Itachi had planned out the entire fight, accounting for all of Sasuke's contingencies, that "fight" still wouldn't be a fight. It was an act made possible by Itachi being superior to Sasuke.

Hell, the only databook area Sasuke was more proficient in was stamina, but Itachi was so much better at molding chakra that he had more endurance than Sasuke anyway. And in most areas, Itachi was at least a tier more skilled than Sasuke.​


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## Rain (Oct 2, 2013)

this thread


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## Kai (Oct 2, 2013)

Again, Tobi said Itachi pushed Sasuke to his absolute limit in order to free him from the Cursed Seal. That entails the entire fight before Susano'o vs. Yamata even occurred.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Don't be Gump. The very fact that Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke means that all of his jutsu that failed to be lethal may have been, and the very fact that he wanted to convincingly lose to Sasuke means that all of Sasuke's triumphs over Itachi lose their validity.



That's speculation, that's fine but if you pass it off as fact you'd be wrong. Wrong if you assume it applies to Itachi's arsenal, which we saw used at full capacity. With the exception of Susanoo (and Izanami), of course.



> Even if Obito didn't pointblank say that the 'always amazing' Itachi had planned out the entire fight, accounting for all of Sasuke's contingencies, that "fight" still wouldn't be a fight. It was an act made possible by Itachi being superior to Sasuke.



Indeed Susanoo is a huge difference maker as we've seen many times. It helps when you apply such comments to the fights they are referencing.



> Hell, the only databook area Sasuke was more proficient in was stamina, but Itachi was so much better at molding chakra that he had more endurance than Sasuke anyway. And in most areas, Itachi was at least a tier more skilled than Sasuke.



Moulding chakra is only a problem for pre-Chunin shinobi. 

Regardless of what the databook says, from what we saw, Sasuke outmatched Itachi. Obviously with no partial Susanoo, or any Susanoo, Itachi would've died.

The idea that Itachi held _everything_ back still has no actual manga backing. The weakness of this notion is it involves speculating heavily from Obito's words and dismissing Itachi's fight with Sasuke entirely.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Cordelia, Turrin, and Iph01121, you all keep stating that its canon that Sasuke overcame Itachi such and such, but don't seem to factor in the little detail that those feats are worthless because Obito pointblank said that Itachi rigged the fight from start to finish.
> 
> Sasuke overcoming Itachi's shuriken to Amaterasu is no more canon than Susano'o and the Totsuka Sword being useless against a drained Sasuke. Itachi was acting the entire time, and purposefully striving to make Sasuke believe that his victory was legitimate.​





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Like the manga, Sasuke destroys Itachi. The condition of Itachi holding back is meaningless as he is not allowed to use the jutsu he was actually holding back (Susanoo).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're actually both wrong.

There's no explicit confirmation of _what_ Itachi held back. All the manga says is that he would've killed Sasuke if he had wanted to.

That leaves it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions based on their understanding of both characters. Personally, I find the notion that Itachi fought Sasuke all-out with everything except for Susano'o completely absurd because it removes control from Itachi and could have gotten Sasuke killed if he had made any mistakes. I know Itachi's a gambler, but that's just nuts. Furthermore, as Obito stated, Itachi just did not intend to kill Sasuke at all; that means even if he had the opportunity with other Jutsu besides Susano'o, he wouldn't have taken it.

But the point I really want to get across is that it's completely disingenuous to act like you know one way or the other.


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## Rocky (Oct 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Personally, I find the notion that Itachi fought Sasuke all-out with everything except for Susano'o completely absurd because it removes control from Itachi and could have gotten Sasuke killed if he had made any mistakes. I know Itachi's a gambler, but that's just nuts. Furthermore, as Obito stated, Itachi just did not intend to kill Sasuke at all; that means even if he had the opportunity with other Jutsu besides Susano'o, he wouldn't have taken it.



That's not necessarily true. Think about Pain's fight against Naruto. He needed him alive....or at least fought the battle with an intent to capture mindset. Yet, Pain had no quarrels busting out his mini-planetoid creator against Naruto once things got messy. I have a feeling that Pain gave everything he had in that battle, despite not intending to kill Naruto at all.


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## Dr. White (Oct 2, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That's not necessarily true. Think about Pain's fight against Naruto. He needed him alive....or at least fought the battle with an intent to capture mindset. Yet, Pain had no quarrels busting out his mini-planetoid creator against Naruto once things got messy. I have a feeling that Pain gave everything he had in that battle, despite not intending to kill Naruto at all.



I find a problem with your equivocation.

Itachi straight up planned for years to die at Sasuke's hand and killing him was a 100% no go. Itachi wasn't going to do anything to kill Sasuke, point blank.

Deva on the other hand was attempting to capture the strongest Bjuu. Yes he needed him alive, but Deva wasn't going to sacrifice himself in that stead as Itachi would. Deva needed to bring out his big guns to put down 6+ tailed Kyuubi. Itachi on the other hand just needed to bring out Orochimaru, efore dying hence why he used his MS in non lethal manners. 

Deva knew at the end of the day even if Naruto died, Kyuubi would come out(as it practically did which he had to defend against), or be reborn some time later wich he could capture then.

Itachi knew killing Sasuke would be the end of all sasuke's subsequently making the past 6 years of his life absolutely pointless.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 3, 2013)

Sick Itachi wins mid difficulty.

 Sorry to say though, that Itachi would've been killed by Chidori if it wasn't for plot no jutsu.

 Problem?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> But the point I really want to get across is that it's completely disingenuous to act like you know one way or the other.



My post was basically saying that their conclusion that Sasuke handling everything but Susano'o was "canon" was incorrect, so... you agree with me. No need for fancy name calling.​


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## Nikushimi (Oct 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That's not necessarily true. Think about Pain's fight against Naruto. He needed him alive....or at least fought the battle with an intent to capture mindset. Yet, Pain had no quarrels busting out his mini-planetoid creator against Naruto once things got messy. I have a feeling that Pain gave everything he had in that battle, despite not intending to kill Naruto at all.



Nagato has the power to revive the dead. Kabuto's strategy with Edo Nagato was to kill Killer B and Naruto, take their corpses back, and revive them in captivity. Pain might've been trying that approach...or maybe he just wanted to restrain Naruto and exhaust him. He did say he could've made Chibaku Tensei even bigger.

It's worth noting that Itachi's intention was to lose to Sasuke after exhausting him to extract Orochimaru, whereas Pain only intended to stop just short of killing Naruto so that he could be captured for Bijuu extraction.



Strategoob said:


> My post was basically saying that their conclusion that Sasuke handling everything but Susano'o was "canon" was incorrect, so... you agree with me. No need for fancy name calling.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That leaves it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions based on their understanding of both characters. Personally, I find the notion that Itachi fought Sasuke all-out with everything except for Susano'o completely absurd because it removes control from Itachi and could have gotten Sasuke killed if he had made any mistakes. I know Itachi's a gambler, but that's just nuts. Furthermore, as Obito stated, Itachi just did not intend to kill Sasuke at all; that means even if he had the opportunity with other Jutsu besides Susano'o, he wouldn't have taken it.
> 
> But the point I really want to get across is that it's completely disingenuous to act like you know one way or the other.



However that underestimates Sasuke's development too. Indeed the manga just says Itachi could've killed Sasuke if he wanted.

We must note, though, that there is no logical inference that base Itachi was watered down other then slightly with speed as Zetsu stated. Remember, Sasuke had his and Orochimaru's* base modes to tackle Itachi.

With the MS we cannot say Tsukuyomi was held back given the foreshadowing we got in part 1 that Sasuke would be the one to break Tsukuyomi; Zetsu and Itachi had no issues with that either. Amaterasu, it comes back to Orochimaru's jutsu- Sasuke knew of everything Itachi had (bar Izanami/Susanoo) and we know he prepared accordingly. We also know Itachi prepared for the possibility that Sasuke had counters... so he had no reason to hold back everything (except Susanoo). You can make a case for when Itachi stopped Amaterasu... but Sasuke shed his skin well before Itachi stopped Amaterasu.

*Orochimaru's jutsu subject to Sasuke's knowledge.

Why do I confidently say Susanoo was the only thing held back? Looking at the fight, I see no reason to think any other jutsu was held back especially as the manga made us think Itachi went all out. However the only suspicious thing was that Itachi never even tried to touch Sasuke with Susanoo, couple that with "he would've killed you if he wanted" and you can see where I get the idea from. More so when you consider _that_ MS jutsu got more attention after the battle, and the fact Itachi could use partial Susanoos.

You're right in saying the manga didn't definitively say how Itachi held back. However I believe there is a lot of support for us to believe Susanoo was the only thing truly held back.


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## Van Konzen (Oct 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However I believe there is a lot of support for us to believe Susanoo was the only thing truly held back.



Sauce admitted he was almost got killed a dozen times
yet only Susanoo was held back..


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Sauce admitted he was almost got killed a dozen times
> yet only Susanoo was held back..



Sasuke almost being killed isn't equivalent to Itachi holding _everything_ back including Susanoo. 

The only jutsu which didn't so much as try to harm Sasuke was obviously the only one held back.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 3, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Seriously? Base Itachi is superior to Hebi Sasuke now? I honestly can't deal with these forums. The Itachi fanboy wank has gotten to new levels of ridiculousness. I guess that's why no one posts here anymore.
> 
> Base Sasuke is arguably beating a base Itachi. Hebi Sasuke defeated Deidara for goodness sake. He would dominate a base Itachi.
> 
> Now apparently per the manga Itachi held back MS wise however in what ways? Would oral rebirth still work? Could he still battle tsukiyomi? If this is the case, then Sasuke wins. If not then of course he wouldn't. If Susano was the extent of holding back then Sasuke likely wins the fight.


big deal itachi cleaned deidaras ass in less than a minute


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## Cord (Oct 3, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Cordelia, Turrin, and Iph01121, you all keep stating that its canon that Sasuke overcame Itachi such and such, but don't seem to factor in the little detail that those feats are worthless because Obito pointblank said that Itachi rigged the fight from start to finish.



Yet that still doesn't tell us that Itachi's base skills were sufficient to pressure Sasuke. Itachi needed to push Sasuke to his utmost limit to free him from the curse seal and he couldn't have achieved that if he was going easy on him. 

Looking at the context of that battle, the only thing that makes sense was him holding back the Mangekyo (Tsukuyomi being arguable) considering that the nature of any of those three ocular powers could potentially kill Sasuke.

Besides that, none of those feats are worthless as they are testament to Sasuke's growth. And I'm fairly confident that Itachi had taken that to account. He couldn't have—of all people—underestimated Sasuke despite being well aware that he's still a step ahead of him.


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## Bonly (Oct 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You're actually both wrong.
> 
> There's no explicit confirmation of _what_ Itachi held back. All the manga says is that he would've killed Sasuke if he had wanted to.
> 
> ...



I agree with this more or less when it comes to the holding back. Itachi had chances to take out Sasuke with Ama but stopped or chose not to do it for example.


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## Etherborn (Oct 3, 2013)

Itachi wins, but not without Ameterasu or Tsukiyomi.


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