# Tobirama vs Minato



## t0xeus (Aug 15, 2016)

*Location: *Juubito vs Alliance
*Distance:* 20m
*Knowledge: *Manga
*Restrictions: *KCM, "seal GG"
*Mindset: *IC
*Stipulations:* Tobirama can use 2 ET fodders for the exploding technique

*Scenario 2: *KCM allowed, if Tobirama gets stomped add Hiruzen with ET feats to his side


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 15, 2016)

Oh this thread will be painful!  I think I will abstain from participating!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ARGUS (Aug 15, 2016)

Tobirama wins both scenarios
He's more reflexive than minato and in a battle of S/T ninjutsu that's al that matters, since superior reactions mean that Tobirmaa is the one who lands a tag on minato

Giving him 2 ET is a mistake since Tobirama can teleport an Edo on minatos face and make it blow up

Summons are non factor. More kunai are non factor. And KCM shunshin is reacted to and dodged by FTG Everytime.
KCM minato was also canonically outperformed by Tobirama

Edit: I know I'm gna regret posting this 
 
Here come the fanboys

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 3


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## Android (Aug 15, 2016)

Pointless thread , as Tobirama already admitted inferiority to Minato ........

Inb4 Tobirama tagged retarded form Juubito bla bla bla

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 5


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## ARGUS (Aug 15, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Pointless thread , as Tobirama already admitted inferiority to Minato ........
> 
> Inb4 Tobirama tagged retarded form Juubito bla bla bla


Admitting inferiority to minato in terms of FTG usage or body flicker doesn't equate to an inferiority in strength 

None of these advantages actually matter in this fight

and lol Tobirama tagging Juubito (which minato failed to accomplish) means that tagging a scrub like minato would be like takin a piss

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Aug 15, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Admitting inferiority to minato in terms of FTG usage or body flicker


Which is what 99 % of their arsenal and fighting style is based on 


ARGUS said:


> doesn't equate to an inferiority in strength


It sounds like it TBH 


ARGUS said:


> None of these advantages actually matter in this fight


If you say so 



ARGUS said:


> and lol Tobirama tagging Juubito (which minato failed to accomplish) means that tagging a scrub like minato would be like takin a piss


Yep , he tagged a retarded form Juubi , who couldn't even dodge Myojinmon , and then got fodderstomped by Non jin Madara 
While the only two people were able to touch Minato are full powered Juubito
And full powered Juudara
Nonthless , Minato reacting to the 5th step of Sekizo takes a dump on any reaction feat Tobirama ever made 


ARGUS said:


>


ck  

We have a guy who got killed by Kinkaku and Ginkaku who did not even use V2 transformation .
While Minato was taking on Tobi and prime Kurama .

The same Kurama that _*literally*_ eat Kin/Gin alive .

Minato > Kurama > Kin/Gin > Tobirama .ck



Thanks for disliking my post without explanation @Second Hokage Tobirama .
I thought we were buddies 
Edit : As usual , @TheWiggian , comes in , likes this , dislikes that , without posting any sort of evidence for his stance

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 15, 2016)

>Tobirama reacted to Obito's blitz and marked him. Base Minato has no feat on this level.
>KCM Minato engaged Obito and got raped before he could teleport away.

>Their Hiraishin is the same except for the fact that Tobirama doesn't have marked Kunai (but he can mark weapons and ordinary Kunai) and the fact that Minato has Guiding Thunder.
>Tobirama has 2 edos for Gojo Kibakfuda, and can teleport them to his marked locations since his chakra is flowing through them.

Tobirama w/ ET stomps Base Minato and he comfortably defeats KCM Minato.

Tobirama surpasses in reactions and general body movement speed or at least equals Minato there (not KCM, just Base). Shunshin goes to Minato. Firepower goes to Tobirama by far.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 3


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## Sapherosth (Aug 15, 2016)

Tobirama is much more shrewd than Minato in addition to being more intelligent.

Reactions: Like 2


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## hbcaptain (Aug 15, 2016)

Anyways, Minato wins the first senario .

the second, he wins low diff, KCM is just a so formidable boost. Adding Hiruzen won't change anything.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## 12771a (Aug 15, 2016)

Tobirama has better reflexes than Minato here. 
He takes s1 for sure. 
S2 is debatable but Tobirama can take it.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Seekingsoul (Aug 15, 2016)

EDO TENSEI is a jutsu that cannot come to play whatsoever during scenario 1. Tobirama isn't stupid enough to risk loosing his head trying to summon it; so S1 becomes a battle of speed just like the battle Minato vs Obito.

S2 Minato is at a disadvantage as one of the things that makes him so deadly, fuuinjutsu, is restricted. Destroying an EDO TENSEI without this art is almost impossible.


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## Turrin (Aug 15, 2016)

I feel like there is a major misconception about why FTG is deadly. People assume it's deadly due to it's speed alone; as in the user attacks so quickly that the target can't react. But that isn't really true. Yes FTG attacks are fast, but high-tier shinobi can still react to them, we saw this w/ Base-B reacting to Minato's FTG (which by Tobirama's own admission is faster than his). So yes speed is a component but the bigger danger of FTG is the ability to catch the enemy by surprise. In the Naruto manga when one character is caught off guard they can't react nearly as well as they normally can. We've seen this with FTG itself multiple times. For example Base-B's reactions are not > Fully Amped RNY Ei's, yet he reacted to Minato's FTG, while Ei failed to react twice; like wise we've seen Juubito react to Minato's FTG chopping his arm off, but then when caught off guard failed to react to Tobirama's FTG multiple times. And so on.

So the danger when going up against a FTG user is being caught off guard because you don't know when or where they will teleport to. And it's to this end that both Minato and Tobirama have developed methods of utilizing FTG to capitalize on these openings. We've seen both of them use the method of placing a tag on the enemy directly, this is probably the most deadly application of FTG, because once the enemy is Tagged, the FTG user can teleport and attack them at any time, and it's very difficult to predict. B managed to predict this because he guessed Minato was going to follow up by teleporting behind him at some point due to watching Minato's previous attempt against Ei, hence Minato complimenting B's instincts, but the fact of the matter is if Minato continued to fight B, B wouldn't have been able to keep predicting how and when Minato would teleport to him, and he'd basically be done for. Like wise we saw the same thing w/ Obito/Juubito failing to react to Minato/Tobirama attacks respectively once marked. So in this regard Minato and Tobirama are equally deadly if they managed to mark the enemy.

However if the enemy isn't marked or they don't get a chance to mark the enemy, this is where we see differences in their styles. Tobirama largely focuses on tagging one weapon and engaging in CQC, than using that weapon as a teleport point to stage Hiraishingiri strikes; this allows Tobirama several openings to catch the enemy off guard in CQC, but it's not so great for Mid/Long-Range, and if the enemy knows about FTG, they only need to keep track of a few possible points that the user can teleport to. Minato's FTG on the other hand can create a-lot more openings, because he can use it really effectively at Mid-Range due to his Tagged-Kunai, and at least somewhat effectively at Long-Range; he also can create far more possible points he can teleport to due to his FTG-Kunai; and we've saw that evolution in FTG LV3, where Minato toss the Kunai all around the enemy and suddenly there tons of potential warp points for him to stage his attacks.

--------

I bring this all up because inevitably a fight between Minato and Tobirama is going to be settled by who catches who off guard first, and is able to ether land a fatal blow or place a FTG marking on the other. Tobirama is more intelligent than Minato, so if their FTG usage was equal I'd give him the slight edge (though Minato is perhaps more creative like Naruto, so i'd be close), but their FTG usage is not equal, Minato's ability to generate far more warp points than Tobirama in CQC, and effectively create warp points at Mid/Long-Range is going to make it vastly more difficult for Tobirama to avoid getting caught off guard by Minato's FTG than it is for Minato to avoid getting caught off guard by Tobirama's FTG. Let's also not forget that Minato has studied Tobirama's capabilities and Jutsu inside and out, and will expect Tobirama's FTG style, however Tobirama while obviously familiar with the technique, has no knowledge on Minato unique FTG strategies and techniques like Rasen-Flash Dance, FTG LV2, and so on. The chance of Tobirama getting caught off guard rather than Minato are simply far greater. 

-----

Adding the Fodder-Tensei, really doesn't change much ether, as Minato (& Tobirama) have shown multiples that he can deflect or teleport away from blasts of far greater magnitude like Juubi/Kyuubi TBB. So Tobirama will need to catch Minato off guard to land Tandem Explosive Tags, and if anything a move like Tandem Explosive Tags will be more difficult to catch Minato off guard w/ than Tobirama's Hiraishingiri; as Tobirama would need to get the Edo-Tensei in close, have it rip Tags out of it's chest, and explode, all before Minato realized what was happening; and do so against enemy that seemingly has knowledge of the move. Like I said he's much better off w/ Hiraishingiri.

-----

And as far as portrayal goes Minato and Tobirama's signature technique that was focused on by the author the most is FTG, and the author had it shown/stated that Minato can use FTG better. That's a huge indication that Minato > Tobirama. Minato also has much more general hype from the verse characters than Tobirama and is hailed as a much greater hero. He also has better accomplishments dealing with MS-Obito and sealing Kyuubi, than Tobirama has; defeating MS-Izuna and holding of Kinkaku Squad, but ultimately being defeated. He's also got more hyped moves outside of FTG, Edo-Tensei is great but, the ability to use it is circumstantial, and outside of it Tobirama got some nice basic abilities, but nothing so great that I'd say it's better than Minato's basic skills and Rasengan; however Minato has Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu one of the most hyped abilities in the manga, SM (it may be not so great, but he can still use it), Toad Summons, and powerful Barrier Techniques (FTG Barrier that blocked Kyuubi TBB and another Barrier that Minato believed could restrain Kyuubi). And while people can say Minato had more panel time to amass this hype, which is true, it's not a massive gap in panel time, and honestly nothing in the manga or data-books would lead one to believe Tobirama is suppose to be seen as better than Minato, so it's not a Prime-Hanzo vs say Orochimaru type situation, where Orochimaru has better feats and more numerous hype statements because he had VASTLY more panel time than Prime-Hanzo, but we are given reason to believe Prime-Hanzo is better via statements.

Reactions: Winner 5 | Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Aug 15, 2016)

Whoever touches who first is gonna be the winner imo so I'd favor Minato thanks to his better speed and use of Hiraishin


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## ARGUS (Aug 15, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> @cctr9 :
> Don't lose your time with Argus,* Qhe wanks the ancestors too much* to the point only Shinobi no Kami surpasses him there.


1. I wasn't the one who engaged, it has and has always been cctr9. He tried but he failed. Despite him attempting to waste my time 

2. Learn what wank is,  this goes to all the clowns who jump the gun in the name calling 
 -- Tobirama has superior reactions and outperformed KCM minato. That's a *manga fact*. You can go ahead and complain all you want, but nothing will change what happened, in the end you'll be the clown who looks like a fool 

3. @Bold -  
Funny how my first post had perfectly describing the current sutuation 
Fanboys going wild

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Android (Aug 15, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> 1. I wasn't the one who engaged, it has and has always been cctr9. He tried but he failed. Despite him attempting to waste my time
> 
> 2. Learn what wank is,  this goes to all the clowns who jump the gun in the name calling
> -- Tobirama has superior reactions and outperformed KCM minato. That's a *manga fact*. You can go ahead and complain all you want, but nothing will change what happened, in the end you'll be the clown who looks like a fool
> ...


 



ARGUS said:


> 1. I wasn't the one who engaged, it has and has always been cctr9


really ??? then what is this ??:


ARGUS said:


> Edit: I know I'm gna regret posting this
> 
> Here come the fanboys





ARGUS said:


> He tried and he got under my skin and trashed my argument .


Yep , that's what i did  


ARGUS said:


> Despite him attempting to waste my time


I'm sorry for hurting your fanboy feelings .


ARGUS said:


> 2. Learn what wank is


Basically every word you just typed in this thread .


ARGUS said:


> Tobirama has superior reactions and outperformed KCM minato. That's a *manga fact*.


And he got his ass kicked by Kin/Gin *manga fact* 
Says manga facts , LOL Even Tobirama deny this nonsense .


ARGUS said:


> You can go ahead and complain all you want, but nothing will change what happened


Just like how your whining and crying won't change that he got defeated by two ass clowns ...........


ARGUS said:


> in the end you'll be the clown who looks like a fool


The salt  


ARGUS said:


> 3. @Bold -
> Funny how my first post had perfectly describing the current sutuation
> Fanboys going wild


Hashtag , #ARGUS125FANBOY ck

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Kai (Aug 15, 2016)

Tobirama stated twice that Minato is faster than him, one of them implied. Minato's use of Hiraishin can be seen as nothing else but an expansion of Tobirama's technique. Tobirama advocates somehow ignore these keys as advantages for Minato's stake in the fight, despite them being echo'd by Tobirama's own mouth.

Granted, Tobirama has made fun of Minato's intelligence, which is fair to say Tobirama is more intelligent than Minato but not limited to said example. Somehow his praises aren't factored in as critically when I read the arguments.

Finally, the point on Tobirama tagging Obito. If we take this fight and looked at it instead vs. a live Tobirama, Tobirama would have been instantly killed by being torn in half. So I see it as Tobirama paying the price of getting destroyed just to land a tag on Obito, a feat I don't see as impossible for Minato, especially if discussing an unconscious JJ Obito. The perception is just different because of Edo Tensei. Secondly, Tobirama tagged controlled Obito when the latter was distracted, and outright states "He was distracted" while placing his tag.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Aug 15, 2016)

Kai said:


> Tobirama stated twice that Minato is faster than him, one of them implied. Minato's use of Hiraishin can be seen as nothing else but an expansion of Tobirama's technique. Tobirama advocates somehow ignore these keys as advantages for Minato's stake in the fight, despite them being echo'd by Tobirama's own mouth.


But these things hold no weight in their fight 

What's more kunai going to do when reactions are what's required in the first place to dodge minatos strike. 
Not to mention that minatos attacks lack AOE in the first place, so a couple of marked locations and clones are all that's needed to dodge his attacks 

Superior body flicker means nothing either. Since Tobirama can easily react to it and has shown superior striking speed as shown by the fact that he teleported to minato, moved the TSB and teleported it to Juubito with a slower clone whilst all minato could manage was watch in awe 



> Granted, Tobirama has made fun of Minato's intelligence, which is fair to say Tobirama is more intelligent than Minato but not limited to said example. Somehow his praises aren't factored in as critically when I read the arguments.


Intelligence won't play much of a role in their battle either 



> Finally, the point on Tobirama tagging Obito. If we take this fight and looked at it instead vs. a live Tobirama, Tobirama would have been instantly killed by being torn in half. So I see it as Tobirama paying the price of getting destroyed just to land a tag on Obito, a feat I don't see as impossible for Minato, especially if discussing an unconscious JJ Obito.


Even if Tobirma lost his body against Juubito he still managed to place a tag before that occurred 
Minato had no chance in doing so, and later on we see Tobirama accomplish a feat that blew KCM minato out of the water, 




> The perception is just different because of Edo Tensei. Secondly, Tobirama tagged controlled Obito when the latter was distracted, and outright states "He was distracted" while placing his tag.


It's not him tagging him
But more of him actually reacting to him and surpassing minato which is what actually matters in this context

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 15, 2016)

@cctr9 @Turrin and @Kai know exactly what is up. People keep talking about Tobirama factually outperforming KCM Minato when he literally didn't, he would've been instantly one-shotted in battle against a mindless Juubito had it not been for him being Edo Tensei. His counterattack also did nothing to Juubito whatsoever, which he was only able to land due to being Edo Tensei. When Minato went to engage Juubito, he didn't have Juubito already tagged like Tobirama did so he had to physically run to him and he was given the task to protect Naruto and Sasuke. So when Juubito attacked them his concentration was broken which is what allowed him to attack Minato and prevent Minato from hitting him. When Minato went to attack Juubito again, he conveniently obtained complete mastery over the Juubi's power at the last second before Minato could reach him which is what allowed him to react to his attack and cut his arm off. When Minato teleported away and was shocked and unaware that he was tagged with a Gudoudama, Tobirama sent a Kage Bunshin using Shunshin to intercept it and teleport it back at Juubito which he easily blocked. Which simply indicates Tobirama's Shunshin > the speed at which Minato can move his arm which is perfectly logical. It doesn't give him better reflexes, as Minato already noticed the attack. If anything, one can look at this from the point of view that Kishi wouldn't let Minato get close to mindless Juubito cause he knew he'd be able to do something leading to Juubito's defeat. 

Furthermore, Tobirama flat-out declared inferiority to Minato in terms of both Shunshin and Hiraishin; two major aspects of both of their main fighting styles. Minato also has much more hype than Tobirama does throughout the series and even more and superior feats, such as managing to briefly engage in battle (although he was losing) against Juubidara while Kakashi was still using Kamui and latter teleporting away Juubidara's Gudoudama before Eighth Gate Guy could touch him or they could pierce him. Whilst Tobirama was trashed by blind SM Madara, who is far below Juubidara who Minato only lost an arm to. Minato is portrayed as fighting and defeating much stronger opponents compared to Tobirama, and has an ever larger and more diverse arsenal as stated by other users already. In addition, Minato literally did more than any of the other Hokage on the entire battlefield in the War Arc so I don't why people keep acting like he was "outperformed" when he saved the entire Alliance twice, Naruto and Sasuke, and later Guy. People are simply misinterpreting specific feats and being biased, this is evident when people run to Tobirama's own insulting quotes towards Minato but ignore the times he has praised him and admitted inferiority. Minato wins both scenarios with varying degrees of difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Android (Aug 15, 2016)

Kai said:


> Finally, the point on Tobirama tagging Obito. If we take this fight and looked at it instead vs. a live Tobirama, Tobirama would have been instantly killed by being torn in half. So I see it as Tobirama paying the price of getting destroyed just to land a tag on Obito, a feat I don't see as impossible for Minato


This , so much this  
@Isaiah13000 , @HandfullofNaruto , @ARGUS 
ARGUS , you keep braging about how Tobirama tagged Retarded form Juubito , who is weaker and slower than Final form Juubito .
That and the fact that ummm ..........hello , Juubito lacked a BRAIN at that time , he couldn't even react to the myojinmon dropping on his ass from above despite sensing and whatnot ??? 

He couldn't even know his name ffs , " O.........bi..........toooo ?????!!!!!!! "  

Obito lacked Onmyoton and the ability to neggate Ninjutsu at that time , otherwise , Tobirama would've been DONE the moment Obito snapped him in half .
Displaying impressive feats is good and all , but that doesn't simply put him about Minato , just like for example DMS Kakashi outperforming Sasuke against Kaguya doesn't make him better or stronger than the sauce , Minato's general portrayal puts above Tobirama , simple as that .

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## StarWanderer (Aug 16, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama wins both scenarios
> He's more reflexive than minato and in a battle of S/T ninjutsu that's al that matters, since superior reactions mean that Tobirmaa is the one who lands a tag on minato
> 
> Giving him 2 ET is a mistake since Tobirama can teleport an Edo on minatos face and make it blow up
> ...



I'd like to know how Tobirama can damage Minato's KCM cloak. Gibakufuda has no feats and was ineffective against Juubito. Marking wont do sh*t due to KCM Minato's durability.

But Tobirama takes the first scenario, yes.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 16, 2016)

And Minato would have died against Juubito as well if not for Tobirama's clone. He would have died after Juubito cut his arm because i dont remember Minato having a superhuman pain tolerance great enough to overcome the pain from losing his arm and teleporting away. So if it was alive base Minato, Juubito would have killed him there, hititng him second time after cutting off his arm. KCM also doesnt give SM-level pain tolerance, although it gives a high level of durability, so if it was alive KCM Minato, he would have died as well. 

But the difference between him and Tobirama is - Tobirama actually reacted and marked Juubito, while Minato, even KCM, did nothing at all. Although if he was faster than Tobirama, he could mark Juubito when Juubito was about to cut off his arm, countering him.

But guess what - it never happened.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Aug 16, 2016)

"Intelligence has no role in this battle"   Da fuq? 




Superior intellect is once again underrated in this forum.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kyu (Aug 16, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> i dont remember Minato having a superhuman pain tolerance great enough to overcome the pain from losing his arm and teleporting away



Dude performed a summoning jutsu, listened to his wife's long-winded monologue, then completed the sealing process - all while impaled by Kurama's claw.

He's no bitch.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 16, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Dude performed a summoning jutsu, listened to his wife's long-winded monologue, then completed the sealing process - all while impaled by Kurama's claw.
> 
> He's no bitch.



Still performed that jutsu after some time and dialogue. 

In case with Juubito, i highly doubt he would have teleported away in time so Juubito wouldnt hit him again.

Even if he does, we dont know if he would have been able to teleport Gudoudama away before it explodes to his face.

And, finally, Tobirama did something. Minato did nothing at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kyu (Aug 16, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Still performed that jutsu after some time and dialogue.



A couple brief quips & reactions of astonishment from the peanut gallery doesn't take much more than a few seconds.


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2016)

@ARGUS 
Didn't tobirama only outperform minato when tobirama had his target marked and minato did not 

When both targets were unmarked Sm Madara trolled tobirama 

By comparison Judara trolled minato 

It's abit biased to use all instances where tobirama had an enormous advantage over minato by having his target marked 

By that logic minato also outperformed tobirama comically when he struck obito before obito transformation while tobirama was busy running towards obito to try to stop him 

Just my 2 cents

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> 2. Learn what wank is,  this goes to all the clowns who jump the gun in the name calling
> -- Tobirama has superior reactions and outperformed KCM minato. That's a *manga fact*. You can go ahead and complain all you want, but nothing will change what happened, in the end you'll be the clown who looks like a fool


Manga facts lol, Base Minato shits on Tobirama's reactions, let alone KCM, here is @Hussain 's gif :

Yet Tobirama got trolled by a mere SM Madara.
Sorry but according to feats, Minato is far superior to Tobirama not only in reaction speedbut also moves speed .

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Sapherosth (Aug 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Manga facts lol, Base Minato shits on Tobirama's reactions, let alone KCM, here is @Hussain 's gif :
> 
> Yet Tobirama got trolled by a mere SM Madara.
> Sorry but according to feats, Minato is far superior to Tobirama not only in reaction speedbut also moves speed .




Madara was already familiar with Tobirama's fighting style, which is how he was able to counter effectively. I mean, he even stated it.....quite clearly, mind you. 

Put Minato in Tobirama's situation, Minato would be on the ground as well. 

As speed, we already have confirmation that Tobirama is slower. Reactions? That's entirely debatable. 

Strategy, planning and insight? Dirty tricks? Tobirama has it hands down.

Reactions: Like 2


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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Madara was already familiar with Tobirama's fighting style, which is how he was able to counter effectively. I mean, he even stated it.....quite clearly, mind you.
> 
> Put Minato in Tobirama's situation, Minato would be on the ground as well.
> 
> ...


Sorry but Minato would troll a mere SM Madara in CQC, if he said he can create an opening against a Juubi Jin using Hiraishin level3 even afte losing one arm against the same openent then he is pretty capable of doing so.
SM Madara is a trash fighter in comparison, he can't in against Minato without using other techniques like Susano'o or Limbo combined to SM or EMS precog.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## Sapherosth (Aug 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Sorry but Minato would troll a mere SM Madara in CQC, if he said he can create an opening against a Juubi Jin using Hiraishin level3 even afte losing one arm against the same openent then he is pretty capable of doing so.
> SM Madara is a trash fighter in comparison, he can't in against Minato without using other techniques like Susano'o or Limbo combined to SM or EMS precog.




Nobody took Minato seriously at all during that battle.....They literally ignored him. When Minato said he'll create an opening, they pretty much went ahead and created their own opening.

SM Madara is trash you say? He blitzed SM Naruto,  out CQC'd EMS Sasuke and Tobirama quite handily. What has Minato done that is superior than that?  Please create a SM Blind Madara vs Minato thread. I'd love to see how many people agree with you.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Nobody took Minato seriously at all during that battle.....They literally ignored him. When Minato said he'll create an opening, they pretty much went ahead and created their own opening.
> 
> SM Madara is trash you say? He blitzed SM Naruto,  out CQC'd EMS Sasuke and Tobirama quite handily. What has Minato done that is superior than that?  Please create a SM Blind Madara vs Minato thread. I'd love to see how many people agree with you.


And you believe teenage SM Naruto and EMS Sasuke (Sasuke pirced Madara's biceps) are a threat to Minato ?
Your "nobody took Minato seriously in this battle" is a fanfic, if it was the case the no one was taken seriously lol.
I never said SM Madara is a trash but it's the case if we compare him to a Juubi Jins, it's not a coincidence Minato was alway stomped againt a Juubi Jin unlike....some Tobirama garbage.
And I only said he will lose to Minato and his Hiraishin no Jutsu.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Aug 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> And you believe teenage SM Naruto and EMS Sasuke (Sasuke pirced Madara's biceps) are a threat to Minato ?
> Your "nobody took Minato seriously in this battle" is a fanfic, if it was the case the no one was taken seriously lol.
> I never said SM Madara is a trash but it's the case if we compare him to a Juubi Jins, it's not a coincidence Minato was alway stomped againt a Juubi Jin unlike....some Tobirama garbage.
> And I only said he will lose to Minato and his Hiraishin no Jutsu.




Pretty sure Tobirama performed better against the Juubi jin than he did against blind Madara. I also remember Tobirama calling Minato retarded.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Madara was already familiar with Tobirama's fighting style, which is how he was able to counter effectively. I mean, he even stated it.....quite clearly, mind you.
> 
> Put Minato in Tobirama's situation, Minato would be on the ground as well.
> 
> ...


This could be all true 
No way to tell if minato going against SM Madara won't have been floored as well 

Tobirama reactions could be better as this has nothing to do with physical speed in a way however more exit points via hirashin makes one harder to predict 

So one has better reactions the other is less predictable


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure Tobirama performed better against the Juubi jin than he did against blind Madara. I also remember Tobirama calling Minato retarded.



Because juubi Jin was marked 
Madara wasn't marked that's the only reason tobirama performed so well 

Same way minato went from phasing through obito to straight up blitzing him

Marking a target gives the hirashin user a massive advantage this is shown when SM naruto a shit tier to juubito could hit juubito thanks to hirashin


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Manga facts lol, Base Minato shits on Tobirama's reactions, let alone KCM, here is @Hussain 's gif :
> 
> Yet Tobirama got trolled by a mere SM Madara.
> Sorry but according to feats, Minato is far superior to Tobirama not only in reaction speedbut also moves speed .


-snip-

It's enough to see that he compares Tobirama getting fodderstompped by retarded form Obito
to Minato getting his armed shopped off be a full power JJ Obito, to prove that he cannot be taken seriously.

-snip-

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Strategy, planning and insight? Dirty tricks? Tobirama has it hands down.


Hands down because of what? 
What are Tobirama's amazing strategy, planning, and insight feats exactly?


-----------

My full opinion (pics don't work anymore)

*
In Term of Jutsu.*

Both of these ninja are relying heavily on their teleporting jutsus, FTG. However, Minato is greater than Tobirama with the teleporting jutsus as Tobirama admitted in two places, [][]. Regardless, some people may argue  that  FTG cannot be slower since it's a teleporting jutsu. However, that was proven wrong by Tobirama himself []. As well, as it's being proven by the Databook
"Minato* handles to perfection the Hiraishin no jutsu *space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama,"
" *Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed*, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."[].
Flying Thunder God Level 2: "It is *an evolved variation* of space-time ninjutsu!!"[]
Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi "Fourth Hokage taking this technique *and pushing it even higher*"[]
"Namikaze Minato *improved* the mastery of Hiraishin no jutsu, and thus took the nickname The Yellow Flash. The excellent jutsu was *refined* according to the disciple, who* evolved it *together with the era." []

Not only that, but Tobirama even praised Minato for being fast at striking as well []. While Tobirama showed the usage of 1 Kunai against Madara, Minato uses a lot of them during the battle, examples of that would be his fight against A & B or his fight in the 3rd War [:][]. Based on that Minato is as proved by Tobirama himself is indeed better, especially as Minato was praised to be the fastest ever [1], while Tobirama was praised to be the the fastest during his era [1]. Thus, Minato's teleporting jutsus that he shared with Tobirama give him the edge because of his mastery over them like FTG, and Goshun Mawashi. I may argue that Minato's slashes with the Kunai are also better than that of Tobirama, since when Minato attacks there is no window to dodge as with Tobirama, examples of that are [1][2][3]. Unlike Tobirama, [1][2]. In addition to that, Minato's Kunai are heavier [1] and also have a great deal of power [1].

As for defensive cases, Minato's greatest defensive moves are his S/T barrier which can deal with moves as strong and the TBB [1][][3]. On the other hand, Tobirama's move is his Water Wall, which has the feat of protecting him from Hiruzen's Fire Dragon [1].

About shunshin, Minato still has some of the best feats in the manga; [1][2][3][4][5][6]. Crossing Konoha in no time, stopping Kakashi before he could even move his hand, and separating the Kunai before the Hokages even arrive. On the other hand, Tobirama has none, but rather, he was shown to be actually slower than Hiruzen [1] who's a 3 out 5 in terms of speed.

Either way, Kishi focused on Minato's speed a lot showing him surpassing those with the greatest speed in a lot of cases. Like he did with Obito's Kamui [1], A's top speed [2], Tobirama's speed, [3], Kakashi's Kamui's speed [4], and 8th Gate Gai's speed [5].

That's in terms of their teleportation jutsus (other than the Water Wall) which they rely on heavily. Both of them are sensor type ninja, they can sense the chakra by their fingers or not. Minato can sense with even one finger [1][2], unlike Tobirama who uses two fingers for that [1]. Both have clones, and can use the 4 suns barrier, so they are more or less even in this regard. However, Minato can easily break this when he use his SM to improve all of his base stats and make his sensing, chakra, and other things more powerful, although that is only for a short time [1]. In addition to that those feats alongside the previous ones are more than half of Tobirama's arsenal.

As for offensive moves, Tobirama also has his Water Severing Wave which was able to cut throw some of the Tree's branches [1]. However, we saw a lot of things can cut through them as well [1][2][3][4][5], so it does not really prove how powerful this jutsu is, not to mention Minato was able to cut the branches without even using his arms []. In addition to that, Minato also has his Rasengan that was able to damage Obito heavily despite Obito having Hashirama's cells, but he lost his arm and the earth surface underneath him was completely destroyed [1]. So, by feats, the Rasengan has a greater offensive power than Tobirama's jutsu.

Another jutsu that Tobirama has is his Water Dragon [1]. But even that falls short against Minato's Food Cart Destroyer jutsu that was able to put even Kurama down for a while [1][2].

One of Tobirama's most powerful jutsu is Edo Tensei. However, he does not really have feats with it, and we have no idea what kind of people that he can summon. However, we know that by Kabuto's statement even Oro's part 1 ET was greater than that of Tobirama's [1][2][3], so I would assume that Tobirama's ET was not meant for the power of the summoned people, but rather for his strongest offensive move which is Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags, which was implied by Madara as well [1]. In addition to that, we know that the ETs have a contract from Madara's statement [1]. And we know that Minato can break the contract by his contract seal [1]. So, really it won't be much of use for Tobirama either.

Now, Minato also has a summoning jutsu, but instead of summoning the dead, he summons the frogs. Unlike Tobirama's case we actually know the frogs and we know their jutsus.

As Tobirama's feats and jutsu stop as far as this. Minato has shown a great mastery over the sealing jutsu that he can even do some with one hand [1], his seals are so strong that B admitted that it's stronger than his own [1], and A stated that they are special seals as well [1], and we know that Kushina taught him a lot of sealing jutsu [1]. Some of those sealing jutsu that we know of are Dead Demon Consuming Seal, Four Symbols Seal, and Eight Trigrams Sealing Style.

Minato also has
Chakra Transfer Technique
Sage Mode


Part 2:


*The Chakra*.

Some people may argue that Tobirama has more chakra than Minato, and that is based heavily on Obito's statement about Asura and what he inherited from his father [1].  But, is that true? No, probably not. The first thing, Obito according to that translation did not even mention the chakra to begin with to say that Tobirama must have more than Minato based on his lineage, but only was it proven later on that just because you're related to a person, it does not necessarily mean that you get everything automatically, and that happened to Asura himself [1][2], what are the odds that it did not happen to Tobirama who came several hundreds of years after him?

On the other hand, we know for sure that Minato had a massive amount of chakra since he has a perfect SM, which required such a huge chakra [1].

In addition to that, some people might use the argument that Tobirama made the wall crack, but how does that prove that he has more chakra than Minato? have not Hiruzen and Oro done the same thing during their fight? But still they did not get all that much chakra, Hiruzen has only 3 in the Databook, so that feat does not really prove anything at all.

Also, stating that Minato got tired after teleporting Kurama means he does not have a great amount of chakra, or Tobirama has more because he teleported both Kuramas. That is cool and all, except, Minato was alive back then, and he dealt with Kushina's seals for hours and then fought Obito and all the other things. *HOWEVER*, Tobirama was only an ET, and he got his chakra restored every time he gets drained, so it's just natural that he won't worry about that stuff. Had he been alive, he wouldn't have been able to continue fighting after the 4 suns barrier since he was already exhausted before the fight even started[1].  So, I don't think it's fair to compare the 2 situations!

I also find the fact that Tobirama is not a SM user like his brother is proof that he does not have enough chakra to learn it.




*In Term of Battles.*

We either have some scan of their battles, or not even completed fights. Therefore, I will rely on both the scans we have about the fight, and the statements that were made for the given fights.

First of all, one of the fights we know that Tobirama fought in is the battle when fought Kin & Gin. One of the fights he fought with them was a surprise attack against him and the 2nd Raikage with him, as a result of this fight Tobirama almost got killed by them [1][2]. In the other fight against Kinkaku Unit which has 20 shinobi, it's when they finally were able to kill him. What we know about that from the scans we have is the fact that Tobirama and his 6 students thought that fighting against Kinkaku and his team it just too much for them [1]. He ended up getting defeated by them [1][2].

While also we know that Kin & Gin have Kurama's chakra within them, but we know that Kinkaku does not use it unless someone has taken Ginkaku out according to Kakuzu [1]

On the other  hand, Minato fought against A & B several times, a team which was stated to be superior and is the strongest team in Kumo [1]. ِAlthough we only have some scans of their fight and the rest remains unseen, we know that Minato is superior to them from their own mouths [1][2]. Current B, was trembling just because Naruto's mentioned his father's name, he wouldn't tremble if Minato was inferior or equal to him. Not to mention he was not fighting Minato alone, but with A alongside him, so that's enough to be sure that he alone can't deal with Minato, otherwise he would destroy Minato with A! Anyway, A also admitted inferiority to Minato [1]. So, A believes that there is no man who can surpass Minato, which is a straightforward statement that Minato is the superior one, not only superior to both A & B, but anyone else according to A (who by the way know about Kin, Gin, Tobirama, his father...etc)

Other battle is almost one scan, which is Tobirama's battle against Izuna [1].
Izuna in that scan was not even using his MS, so I think it's safe to assume that Tobirama had the edge because Izuna's chakra became so low that he couldn't keep his sharingan activated anymore. On top of that we do not even know
how powerful Izuna was to begin with. It's also worth to mention that the translation that some of Tobirama's fans use to prove Izuna's power is actually wrong, Itachi (whose knowledge in that regard was proven to be wrong) did not say that Izuna was as powerful as Madara, but rather they were training together [1], and that's all. Izuna in the flashback was even shocked that there was someone who's stronger than his brother!

Minato on the other hand fought against Obito who was trained by Madara as well. Not only that but he also has Hashi's cells and he was controlling Kurama, who was attacking the village. On top of that he attacked Minato off guard, yet he still got his ass handed to him. Even though he has a superior jutsu to both Minato and Tobirama's s/t jutsus.

So, once again Minato fought superior foes to that of Tobirama.

We also know that ET Tobirama with his brother and Oro fought against old Hiruzen. In which he also ended up losing, it is true that he was not at his full power, but so was Hiruzen and even if we ignored that it's still one of his battles.

On the other hand Minato was fighting in the 3rd war and pretty much changing the entire result from Konoha losing the war to Konoha winning the war, and it was even stated that he ended his battles in a blink of an eye. As we know that in the front line, there were 1000 shinobi as Minato stated [1] and he was sent there as well as defeating them. Throughout the War he also was defeating those ninja from Iwa [1][2][3][4][5] Ending the War [1].

part 3:

*The 4th World War.
*

The only time we got to see those two in a longer time that how we saw them before was in the 4th War, and I have covered different areas about them in the other sections. This section will mainly be a comparison between the two and how Kishi portrayed them in almost the same situation. First of all, the first comparison Kishi made between them was their speed as Minato was the first Hokage to arrived [1], and after a while of his arrival Tobirama arrived acknowledging Minato's superiority over him [2]. The second one was against Obito, at first Tobirama faced mindless obito who was not in control of his power, and even though he succeeded to put some explosion tags on him and FTG mark, but that cost him half of his body [1], which is in a normal cased he would have be killed in that second. On the other hand, Kishi putted Minato against a superior obito, who actually can think and control his power, yet Minato suffered much less damage, which is only his 1 arm [2]. The third one we have is in term of teleporting other people. Minato was able to teleport an entire army out [1], on the other hand, Tobirama was shown to only teleporting 2 [2] which is after acknowledging that he can't accomplish the same feat [3]. Kishi, again showed Minato dealing with stronger, and more attacks than Tobirama, as Tobirama dealt with only 1 Gedu-dama [1], he had armless Minato dealing with 5 instead [2]. And finally, kishi putted Tobirama against pre-Juubi's host madara, and he ended up beaten very badly, even though he waited till madara put his guard down so to speak [1], but he but Minato, again, against the superior one, Madara after he became the Juubi's host [2]. Although both got fodderized, but the point is, Minato's foe was at a greater power, and while Tobirama was shut down, Minato was able to help his team further and make almost all of Madara's Gedu-damas completely useless.



Part 4:


*In Term of Intelligence.*

Both Hokages are considered to be intelligent. Firstly, Minato is said to be a genius that appears once in a while [1]. He was praised to be intelligent as well by Tsunade, Jiraiya[1] and Naruto [1].  According to the sannin as well, he is not the guy who would do something without a reason [1][2]. In addition to that, he also stated that he could have handled the Uchiha Coup d'tat better/earlier [1].

In terms of analysing the foe's jutsu, Minato has shown some of the best feats as well. First of all, he analysed Kakashi's chidori from the first time he saw it [1] He figured out how the jutsu worked and what its strong points and weaknesses as well. He was also able to analyze Obito's Kamui from the first time and counter it in no time [1][2][3].  Which took Naruto, Kakashi, Guy, and B a lot more time to find out about, and it took a lot of teamwork to overwhelm Kamui so to speak. Minato's feats continue, in the War when Obito trapped them. Tobirama tried to come up with a solution but Minato gave a better solution than that of Tobirama's[1][2]. His Idea of teleporting the Entire Tree, which Tobirama couldn't think of. He also analysed the Black Orbs [1][2][3]. He talked about the speed, distance, and the control, then he came up with a plan to deal with it, even though he only met Lee and Gaara for a minute or so! That's beside his plan for Naruto and the village by sealing only half of Kurama inside Naruto, so Konoha does not lose its Bijuu, and sealing his chakra and Kushina's chakra inside Naruto to help him.

In term of jutsus he created the Rasengan, Rasen-Flash Super-Circle Dance Howl Stage Three, S/T barrier, and improved the FTG to a higher degree than Tobirama. Also, according to the DT3 he was creating the jutsu after the other [1].


Tobirama's feats are that he thought of building a lot of constructions for Konoha [1], which are based on Hashirama's ideas [1]. That's in addition to creating some of the strongest jutsus like ET, FTG, clones, and the explosion tags jutsu. He also was/is a good politician and that's why he was thinking of Konoha when he decided to sell the Biuu rather than given them for the villages for free. That's beside the fact he noticed the Juubi's host weakness after the frog attack, and the fact that even the ET cannot regenerate if they got hit by the black stuff, after Obito's statement about the yin, and yang.
*
In Term of Hype.*

Tobirama some hype going for him.

Tobirama was hyped by the ANBU to be the ultimate shinobi [1]. He was also hailed as the fastest in his time according to Madara [1], and the greatest in the village at the time according to Danzo [1].


As for Minato;

He was one of the finest ninja Konoha has ever produced , even the villagers wished that he was alive to deal with the threat [1], even in the presence of another Hokage during Kurama's attack on the village [2]. He was so talented that one of the sannin, Jiraiya stated that no one like him was born in a while [3], and that everyone pales in comparison to him [4] to the point where he thought that Minato was the child of prophecy [5][6][7], the one who will save the world [8]. Minato is also an excellent and superior ninja [9] that the Raikage thought that there is no one who could surpass him [10]. His power was to such an extent that because of it the villages gave a flee on sight orders, and that the ninja should run the moment they see him [11][12], even the likes of B, a perfect host was trembling the moment he heard his name [13], and the likes of Madara were waiting for him to go away so they can take their move [14]. Minato as a great Hokage [15], who deserved his title [16], was especially good with the teleportation jutsu that exceeds his predecessor [17][18][19], and his unique sealing jutsu [20][21], that he learned a lot of them from his wife, Kushina [22], and even Kurama himself acknowledged the complexity of the those seals [23] which required a great deal of ability []. In addition to that, Minato, who can do miraculous things [25], besides his ability as a ninja, who was thought to be a strong [26] saviour [27] that does not make mistakes [28] and had no failings [29] is a genius [30] that does not do anything without a reason [31][32], which can give a better results in a complex situation like in the uchiha's case [33].


and those are the areas that I can cover about those 2 Hokages from the information I have. Minato, Konoha's Yellow flash [1][2][2, that Naruto [1], chose him from all the Hokages to be his goal to be a greater Hokage than him [1]. With some oh his power remain unseen, such as his element [1], his jutsu [2], and probably some others [3].



Zetsu [1]

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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure Tobirama performed better against the Juubi jin than he did against blind Madara. I also remember Tobirama calling Minato retarded.


It's not a coincidence Kishi removed Minato's mark and make it so that he would be marked by Tobirama, without it Tobiram would look like a fodder. Proof ? He was stomped by a mere SM Madara

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 16, 2016)

I want just to say that having multiple Marked Kunai is a great advantage undeed,but do not underestimate Tobirama use of Kunai. Because while when Minato Throws a bunch of Kunai you know they are all Marked and you are "on guard" expecting something,while when Tobirama throws a bunch of Kunai or single Kunai you can never be sure is there a Marked one among them or no and when he will use Marked Kunai,which is quite handy and relies on the moment of surprise! 

In Physical Capabilities and Chakra Tobirama has the Advantage. In Experience he has the Advantage,in Intelligence and Knowledge he has the Advantage. In CQC/Taijutsu and Kenjutsu he has the Advantage since he used Sword from like 5 years Old and he is used to fight Uchiha all his life since Child all which have Sharingan and great Taijutsu counter. In Elemental Jutsu,Tobirama has the Advantage,he even has Yin and Yan and probably has Genjutsu Advantage too. In Reflexes and Reactions Tobirama has a decent Advantage too. His only Disadvantage is slightly Inferior FTG and Shunsin.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ARGUS (Aug 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @ARGUS
> Didn't tobirama only outperform minato when tobirama had his target marked and minato did not


Wrong Tobirma outperformed minato because he was able to physically move, take the TSB and teleport it back to Juubito before minato could even manage to act

So yeah. Minato looked pathetic



> When both targets were unmarked Sm Madara trolled tobirama


That means that SM Madara > Tobirmaa in physical reactions

Doesn't change the fact that tobirama actually reacted to Juubito



> By comparison Judara trolled minato
> 
> It's abit biased to use all instances where tobirama had an enormous advantage over minato by having his target marked


Yet Tobirama says right after that once Juubito engages, they can't just recklessly teleport at him

Tobirmaa had this said advantage because he actually managed to get to that stage
Minato despite the buff of KCM failed to even clear the first step 

-snip-



> By that logic minato also outperformed tobirama comically when he struck obito before obito transformation while tobirama was busy running towards obito to try to stop him
> 
> Just my 2 cents


No that isn't the same logic.

We have an instance which compares their actions in the same battle

And we have another instance where Tobirama wasn't even present

And Lol no. Minato was using FTG. Whilst Tobirmaa was using shunshin
Big difference

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 2


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## ARGUS (Aug 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> *Manga facts lol, Base Minato shits on Tobirama's reactions, let alone KCM, here is @Hussain 's gif :
> 
> Yet Tobirama got trolled by a mere SM Madara.
> Sorry but according to feats, Minato is far superior to Tobirama not only in reaction speedbut also moves speed .*


Bold and striked are the parts that are absolute trash


Lol. Insert **an actual manga scan of Tobirmas clone making KCM minato look like scrub*

-snip-

We all know that Tobirma:
-- marked Juubito which KCM minato failed to do so
-- physically moved to the TSB with a clone, took the TSB, teleported to Juubito. Hit him with his own TSB and teleported hin away

All while minato could just watch

-snip-

And lol did you seriously say that SM madara with a real Rinnegan is slower than base minato?  

Yeah I'm done

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 2


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## ARGUS (Aug 16, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> I'd like to know how Tobirama can damage Minato's KCM cloak. Gibakufuda has no feats and was ineffective against Juubito. Marking wont do sh*t due to KCM Minato's durability.


Considering that swords can pierce the KCM cloak, I have no doubt that a Gojo point blank would eradicate it 
Going by its blast radius its on the level of a regular FRS which can eradicate V2 susnaoo level constructs 

Something that's far above the KCM shroud in durability 

And yeah hiraishingiri to the neck would one shot if minato is marked 


> But Tobirama takes the first scenario, yes.


He mid diffs base minato 
High diffs KCM

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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

-snip-

Pretending not seeing some 8th gate Gai moving at Full speed and Base Minato physically reacting to him..

-snip-

bout Mindless Juubito garbage, he simply doesn't care who is touching him and who isn't even Hashirama's mere clone managed to bind him without reacting, so I guess Hashirama's clone was too fast for him I guess

I guess SM Madara stand a chance against Juubito 

Yet I think it's useless debating with you about the fossils since you wank them to the extend you can't understand their feats.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Sapherosth (Aug 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> We should call you @ARGUS fossil-tard instead of jsut Argus.
> 
> Pretending not seeing some 8th gate Gai moving at Full speed and Base Minato physically reacting to him..
> 
> ...



Minato didn't really do much. It was all Lee's work throwing that Kunai. All Minato did was use FTG, get hit and FTG. In fact, that's Lee's hype.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Minato didn't really do much. It was all Lee's work throwing that Kunai. All Minato did was use FTG, get hit and FTG. In fact, that's Lee's hype.


He grabed the Kunai with his mouth that's what we call physically move, a single physical move against red Gai is much more impressive than all what Tobirama did .

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Aug 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> -snip-
> 
> Pretending not seeing some 8th gate Gai moving at Full speed and Base Minato physically reacting to him..
> 
> ...


-snip-

And lol so by your post
6th gate Lee is far above 8th gate guy
Yeah I'm not following this nonsensical logic

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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

Argus said:
			
		

> 6th gate Lee is far above 8th gate guy
> Yeah I'm not following this nonsensical logic


It seems you can't apply this logic on Tobirama/KCM Minato example where it' obvious KCM Minato >>>>  Tobirama in bot reactions and speed just like 8 gates Gai/6th Gae Lee relation lol. 

-snip-

you chose what you like and yu pretend don't seeing or sophistrying what yu don't like .

I nearly forgot but I can provide you a feat where Tobirama's clone was faster than Tobirama himself. Guess, you will neglect it as always because you don't like it .


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Wrong Tobirma outperformed minato because he was able to physically move, take the TSB and teleport it back to Juubito before minato could even manage to act
> 
> So yeah. Minato looked pathetic
> 
> ...



Minato hand was moving towards it though so that's minato reacting , as to tobirama getting there we have no idea when he started moving , would be almost as bad as claiming haku outperformed Kakashi twice when he intercepts him from so far off before Kakashi and kill Zabuza who is right in front of him 

Yh tobirama said that after juubito had already been trolled twice by hirashin . So yh same tactic won't work 

Again tobirama got to that stage no one is denying that, he got split in half for that to happen and could regen 

Minato chose to get away for juubito rightly so because if he was split in half by that juubito he would have died since juubito evolution was complete . So different risk involved there 

 yes minato could use FTG and was relevant because he had his target marked and tobirama did not 

When tobirama had his enemy marked minato looked shit in comparison because tobirama could always hirashin to his target and minato could not 

That's really all
It is . Not sure why someone who is supposed to be a smart poster is struggling to get that 

The proof is in the fact that SM Madara had little trouble defeating tobirama
, I don't think the Same would happen if Madara was marked to begin with though

Unless we saying SM Madara >>>>>> juubito . 

Cuz juubito got trolled 3 times by hirashin all thanks to being marked which so far has always been the thing


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## Saru (Aug 16, 2016)

Let's try to make arguments based on the manga and not each other's intelligence, analytical tendencies, or taste in character.

Please refrain from personal insults.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> Let's try to make arguments based on the manga and not each other's intelligence, analytical tendencies, or taste in character.
> 
> Refrain from personal insults.



Odd comment .. Thought those things were a normal automatic ban pretty sure that's kinda what happened earlier ...


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2016)

The only thing I find flawed @ARGUS 
Is you are comparing tobirama hirashin feats to minato using shunshin
When we have seen when minato uses hirashin and we compare that to tobirama using shushin minato comes out looking better 

The TSB feat at best is in the same league as every other interception feat 
Where by someone does something normally deemed physically impossible 

Killer bee saving A 
Suigetsu interception 
Haku interception 
Gai TSB interception , you know the same thing that almost stopped kamui speed doubled

I mean are we really saying gai  in lower gates in speed is >>>>>>>>>> KCM minato who couldn't grab TSB when it was on his shoulder ?

If so how on earth did 30% kisame even see gai move st all 
?

All he should have seen was red !! From the blood coming out of his bashed in skull 

So yes in every way possible @Turrin is right when he says speed feats are terribly misread in battledome

I think kishi is more of a stickler for Jutsu mechanics than feats which are entirely plot based 

I.e haku being able to stop Kakashi May have been based on the fact that his Jutsu moving from A to B exceeds shunshin in terms of movement speed 

Same reason Minato is still regarded as the fastest , solely Jutsu mechanism based and certainly not feat based in a fight 

Am sure there are inconsistencies with this train of thought but that would be for the obvious we are analysing a manga which the author barely analysed himself


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## Seekingsoul (Aug 16, 2016)

*@*
Oh my, how in the world do you remember half those things?


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## Trojan (Aug 16, 2016)

Seekingsoul said:


> *@*
> Oh my, how in the world do you remember half those things?


I did that post when the manga was still running and the debate was heated. lol

Even tho, frankly it does not need all of that. Anyone who is not brain-dead should know that the manga clearly shows
Minato > Tobirama. Regardless of all the stupidity that being said in this thread. lol

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## hbcaptain (Aug 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Even tho, frankly it does not need all of that. Anyone who is not brain-dead should know that the manga clearly shows
> Minato > Tobirama. Regardless of all the stupidity that being said in this thread. lol


The proof, anyone who isn't Tobirama fan or one of the greatest Minato haters such as Sapheroth vote Minato for the win.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## StarWanderer (Aug 16, 2016)

Kyu said:


> A couple brief quips & reactions of astonishment from the peanut gallery doesn't take much more than a few seconds.



They had a huge dialogue out there. And only after that Minato did what he did. 

Can you prove alive Minato would have teleported away in time after losing his hand? Because the pain after that can be unbearable. 

He wouldnt be fast enough to do anything in such situation. Tobirama, however, was fast enough to mark Juubito in close distance. His physical movement speed and reactions were above those of KCM Minato.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## StarWanderer (Aug 16, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Considering that swords can pierce the KCM cloak, I have no doubt that a Gojo point blank would eradicate it
> Going by its blast radius its on the level of a regular FRS which can eradicate V2 susnaoo level constructs



That swords can pierce it? Have you referred to Sasuke's sword piercing Naruto's cloak?

Orochimaru's Kusanagi blade couldnt pierce KN6 cloak. KCM Naruto tanked V2 Ei's attacks. KCM Naruto pushed Bijuudama with his hands. Tanked Nagato's Shinra Tensei. 

Yet a featless Gibakufuda will blow KCM Minato up?

The explosion was big, yes, but that kind of logic doesnt work in Narutoverse. Unless you believe that Deidara's S0 is more powerful than Kurama's Bijuudamas.


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## Android (Aug 16, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Orochimaru's Kusanagi blade couldnt pierce KN6 cloak. KCM Naruto tanked V2 Ei's attacks. KCM Naruto pushed Bijuudama with his hands. Tanked Nagato's Shinra Tensei.


KCM tanked an explosion that cut the moon in half , and the Juubi's Tenpenchi , several of Madara's giant Katons , and Obito's Kamui enhanced Bakufu Ranbu .
Don't forget


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## Kyu (Aug 16, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> *They had a huge dialogue out there*. And only after that Minato did what he did.



No.



> Because the pain after that can be unbearable.



Because impalement through the spine must be a fantastic sensation.


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## ARGUS (Aug 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato hand was moving towards it though so that's minato reacting , as to tobirama getting there we have no idea when he started moving , would be almost as bad as claiming haku outperformed Kakashi twice when he intercepts him from so far off before Kakashi and kill Zabuza who is right in front of him
> 
> Yh tobirama said that after juubito had already been trolled twice by hirashin . So yh same tactic won't work
> 
> ...



Dude I just told you it's not about him  being marked. 
If minato could only manage to attempt to move his TSB then that still doesn't make things better

Because in that instance, Tobirma teleported to minato, grabbed the TSB. Teleported to juubitos location, hits him with the TSB and then teleports the two further away 

There are also physical movements in play here, mainly reactions and strikin speed. 
Being lol marked can help but later on we see that an engaging Juubito was countering every single strike that they had. 

Being marked can also only get you too far. If the users striking speed or reactions aren't enough than it'll fail. 
Just how it failed multiple times when Sasuke ameno striked Kaguya 

Using SM Madara instance to downplay Tobirama makes no sense since Juubito didn't engage. Yet Madara did.
So that mainly proves that SM Madara > Tobirama 

If Juubito engaged and watched his back then Tobirma would have been crushed just how he stated in the manga 

It's that simple

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## Turrin (Aug 17, 2016)

Minato was caught off guard by Juubito's Gododama, while Tobirama saw the whole thing go down; that's why Minato's movements/reactions were dulled in that instance, while Tobirama's were not. Same reason Human-Path got completely blitz'd when caught off guard by SM-Jiraiya's speed and than later casually reacted no diff. Ether that or you could say Kishimoto is simply not consistent speed-wise; however we know typically Minato is faster and > Tobirama at FTG because it was stated

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## Sapherosth (Aug 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> The proof, anyone who isn't Tobirama fan or one of the greatest Minato haters such as Sapheroth vote Minato for the win.



I don't hate Minato, I just see Tobirama as being more dangerous in this battle due to having more combat experience, FTG experience and its mechanics, arguably more intelligent and sneaky when it comes to counter attacking. Speed difference is literally non-factor in this battle. The biggest factor here is intellect and experience, which Tobirama is superior at.

The moment Minato tries to hit Tobirama in the back with a Rasengan is the moment Tobirama appears behind Minato instead and slash him up. 

Worst case scenario is they both go down together with Tobirama using a kamikaze styled attack similar to Danzo's or Minato using the death reaper.

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## Icegaze (Aug 17, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Dude I just told you it's not about him  being marked.
> If minato could only manage to attempt to move his TSB then that still doesn't make things better
> 
> Because in that instance, Tobirma teleported to minato, grabbed the TSB. Teleported to juubitos location, hits him with the TSB and then teleports the two further away
> ...



Again tobirama teleporting to TSB in the first instance is an interception feat 
Agreeing to such agrees to haku > Kakashi in speed 
And suigetsu> A in speed 
Since you disagree with those why insist on this one ?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Aug 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Again tobirama teleporting to TSB in the first instance is an interception feat
> Agreeing to such agrees to haku > Kakashi in speed
> And suigetsu> A in speed
> Since you disagree with those why insist on this one ?


It's not interception becuse Tobirmaa actually then moved and acted at rates faster than minato 

Interception would only be true if Tobirama came infront of minato and did nothin else. 
But he teleported again and strikes Juubito before minato can act

So no it's not interception

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## Icegaze (Aug 17, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> It's not interception becuse Tobirmaa actually then moved and acted at rates faster than minato
> 
> Interception would only be true if Tobirama came infront of minato and did nothin else.
> But he teleported again and strikes Juubito before minato can act
> ...



 it's an interception because he was no where then suddenly at the TSB. From there he used hirashin twice , I.e no actual physical movement 

Step 1 off panel getting to TSB
Step 2 hirashin to juubito with TSB in hand 
Step 3 hirashin at new location and hit juubito with it 

Are u saying minato was still reaching for where the TSB was after those 3 steps ?

So no tobirama used hirashin twice on a marked location 

Though didn't minato do that to 8th gate gai 

Am surprised u advocate gai must have slowed down due to some inconsistency 

Yet u think tobirama can strike quicker than juubito can react to

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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2016)

Minato reacted to the Gedu-Damas attack twice before it could do any damage whatsoever.

1- When Obito was trying to blow Naruto & Sasuke's heads with them.
2- When they physically touched him, but he teleported before any damage happen.

@ARGUS 's argument is rubbish, plain simple. The manga even tells us that by Tobirama's own mouth that @ARGUS 's argument is nonsense and cannot be taken seriously. What happens in this plot is forced to make Tobirama involved in the fight. It's no different than what happens with other speedy characters and whatnot.

If we were to take the logic, then should we take it that all the Bijuus are faster than Tobirama because they were actually able to hit Asspulldara, which Tobirama couldn't? What about Darui >>>>>> Tobirama because he did a major damage to Kin/Gin who wiped
the floor with Tobirama?

Should we take it that Chojiro is faster than KCM Naruto because he hit black Zetsu where KCM Naruto did not?

What about Shikamaru immobilizing Kinshiki before Sasuke could move away from his attack? Is Shikamaru faster than Sasuke?

And the list goes on and on. 

-snip-

I don't know why some people still can't comprehend even the basic shit in the manga, even tho the author flat out tell us on TOBIRAMA's OWN MOUTH otherwise.

-snip-

If Tobirama himself says otherwise, who are you to say he is wrong and you are correct about HIM? 
It's even worst that he stated that in different occasions, and the 4th Databook literally spoon-fed you? 

-snip-

Seriously? 

Edit:
and btw, all of Tobirama's "movement" with the Gedu-Dama thing were with his FTG




In fact, this same event with Tobirama proves, yet again, that @ARGUS 's argument is garbage.
Why?

Because Tobirama said the clone's FTG is too slow, and yet in this event, the clone reached
Minato before the real Tobirama did, does that mean Kishi was telling us Tobirama's clone > Real Tobirama?

Yeah, did not think so either. 
As I said, complete nonsense, and a waste of time. The manga has already ended this by Tobirama's own mouth.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 17, 2016)

I can't desapprouve @Hussain, especially while ARGUS find it strange when 6 Gate Lee moved faster than red Gai while he didn't say anything about KCM Minato/Tobirama's example. Simple coincidence ?

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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2016)

It's not only 6 Gates Lee example. As I said @ARGUS for whatever reason become a huge hypocrite when it comes to this debate.
Otherwise, the manga has tons of those examples.

Look here, Shika is able to stop both Kinshiki and Momoshiki


Same guy who was fighting Sasuke like this


Sasuke whose Asspulldara couldn't handle his speed as a teen


Even the new Kages were all able to do the same




So, should we take that Shikamaru, those Kages >>>>>> JJ Asspulldara (In term of speed at least) >>>>>>>>>>>>> SM Asspulldara >>>>>> Tobirama?  (In term of speed at the very least)

And the list goes on and on. 

-snip-

Another examples would be

1- Lee cutting Madara in half without Asspulldara getting any chance to do anything.
2- Obito's raw hand >>>>>>>> 8th Gates 5th Step Gai's punch (which couldn't go through Asspulldara's body)

and so on.
Those type of things cannot be taken as a face value, but rather what the author wants to happen...

Can we say for example, that Clone Shit is too fast because he dodged Naruto's chakra arm?
Or V2 4tails Naruto >>>>>>>>> RM full Kurama mode, adult Naruto because Oro's sword couldn't scratch V2 Kurama's arm Naruto, but Sasuke's arm went through him easily?


Or that Himawari is the strongest character because she defeated Naruto with 1 figure, where the other characters and moves like ST, Chidori, Limbo....etc etc couldn't?

Or Sakura's punch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sasuke's PS because Sakura's punch effected Kaguya, where Sasuke's PS got trashed?

-snip-

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## Legend777 (Aug 17, 2016)

Minato vs JJ Obito



Minato tried to attack headon , got distracted by Obito transforming in the middle of the attack and managed to escape with a missing arm.

Tobirama vs JJ Obito



Tobirama straight up admits that he'll get annihilated by JJ Obito..if he got anywhere near him despite tagging him.

I am actually quite baffled that any one would even entertain the notion that Tobirama's reactions are superior to KCM Minato's...

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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2016)

^

If only the stupidity stays at that level. 
They compare a character in 2 different stages as if they were the same!

It's like someone compares KCM Naruto to BM Naruto. Whom anyone who has even 1 cell of a brain can see a massive different in power and speed.

It's almost amazing how retarded those arguments are. 

Even the feat they are fapping over, and in really close range, this Obito blocked the attack
f we hadn't kept our secret, we never would've won. 
And Tobirama was even shocked at that and saying he is fast. It just tells you how much faster
Obito became.

But I guess some people are simply not smart enough to comprehend information that given to them directly.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> It's not only 6 Gates Lee example. As I said @ARGUS for whatever reason become a huge hypocrite when it comes to this debate.
> Otherwise, the manga has tons of those examples.
> 
> Look here, Shika is able to stop both Kinshiki and Momoshiki
> ...


Hard to post a more complete argumentation

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 17, 2016)

Kai said:


> Tobirama stated twice that Minato is faster than him, one of them implied. Minato's use of Hiraishin can be seen as nothing else but an expansion of Tobirama's technique. Tobirama advocates somehow ignore these keys as advantages for Minato's stake in the fight, despite them being echo'd by Tobirama's own mouth.
> 
> Granted, Tobirama has made fun of Minato's intelligence, which is fair to say Tobirama is more intelligent than Minato but not limited to said example. Somehow his praises aren't factored in as critically when I read the arguments.
> 
> *Finally, the point on Tobirama tagging Obito. If we take this fight and looked at it instead vs. a live Tobirama, Tobirama would have been instantly killed by being torn in half. So I see it as Tobirama paying the price of getting destroyed just to land a tag on Obito, *a feat I don't see as impossible for Minato, especially if discussing an unconscious JJ Obito. The perception is just different because of Edo Tensei. Secondly, Tobirama tagged controlled Obito when the latter was distracted, and outright states "He was distracted" while placing his tag.



 Why do Minato fans and/or supporters always have to reach and misconstrue the Manga when they argue like something bad will happen if they just admit the truth?

Tobirama stated that Minato's Shunshin was faster than his. Shunshin is not Hiraishin. Hiraishin can't be faster than Hiraishin so please don't try and assert this nonsense. I'd love for you or anyone supporting Minato here to post where Tobirama came out and said that Minato was faster than him. Minato's Hiraishin being better than Tobirama's is because of how he expanded on it as you said. Literally nothing to do with speed. So Minato having marked Kunai and other expansion techniques lets him win in a battle of speed against a guy who has 2 Edo Tensei zombies for his Gojo Kibakufuda? Yeah...no. Makes zero sense.

Why do you guys love to bring up the bold without explaining how it changes anything? Yes, we all know that Tobirama would've died if he were alive. Does that change the fact that he reacted to Obito and tagged him before he could get hit? No, it doesn't. If he had been hit first no tag would've been able to be placed. Minato doesn't have a feat that surpasses that nor does he have a statement that puts his reaction speed above Tobirama's so how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that Minato can do the same again?  KCM Minato got his arm ripped off by Obito before he could even teleport away yet somehow there's reason to put him above Tobirama in reaction speed?  Let's be 100% serious here. Base Minato barely reacted to Ay.



StarWanderer said:


> That swords can pierce it? Have you referred to Sasuke's sword piercing Naruto's cloak?
> 
> Orochimaru's Kusanagi blade couldnt pierce KN6 cloak. KCM Naruto tanked V2 Ei's attacks. KCM Naruto pushed Bijuudama with his hands. Tanked Nagato's Shinra Tensei.
> 
> ...



Is this a joke? The explosion that destroyed Myojinmon (multiplied by 2 now since Tobirama has 2 ET) is going to be tanked by KCM Minato when KCM cloaks best feats are tanking attacks nowhere near this magnitude of power. 

L.O.L. ac

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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 17, 2016)

@Hussain I also think it should be noted that interestingly Minato had a marker placed on Obito before he became the Juubi Jinchuriki, but once he becomes Juubito it magically disappears as stated by Minato himself. Whilst Tobirama's on the other hand doesn't for whatever reason. I think that's further evidence that Kishimoto simply wanted Tobirama to be involved, since he pretty much did nothing beforehand. Those few Manga chapters were not at all meant to indicate Tobirama > KCM Minato, or even Minato in general, it's completely ridiculous to even think that. Throughout the entirety of the Manga, as well as the Databooks it's clear who is portrayed as stronger. Even by Tobirama's own mouth, he admits inferiority in terms of Shunshin and Hiraishin to Minato, which are the basis of his fighting style. He praised Minato's superior speed and mastery at least three times, and even asked him for permission to use his superior Hiraishin to save people. People simply put way too much credit behind feats (as well as completely ignoring and/or misinterpreting the circumstances surrounding them) which end up being extremely flawed many times and dependent on plot.

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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2016)

> Why do Minato fans and/or supporters always have to reach and misconstrue the Manga when they argue like something bad will happen if they just admit the truth?



Mainly because there is many differences between "truth" and "delusion" You are not saying the truth, you are delusional.

The character you support himself disagrees with your own fantasies. You couldn't be further from the truth even if you try. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Tobirama stated that Minato's Shunshin was faster than his. Shunshin is not Hiraishin. Hiraishin can't be faster than Hiraishin so please don't try and assert this nonsense.


Tobirama disagrees with you tho. 




> Minato's Hiraishin being better than Tobirama's is because of how he expanded on it as you said. Literally nothing to do with speed



The Databook says otherwise. 
It references the exact same moves, and state that Minato is superior to him at them

"Minato* handles to perfection the Hiraishin no jutsu *space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama,"

" *Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed*, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."[].

Flying Thunder God Level 2: "It is *an evolved variation* of space-time ninjutsu!!"[]


Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi "Fourth Hokage taking this technique *and pushing it even higher*"[]


"Namikaze Minato *improved* the mastery of Hiraishin no jutsu, and thus took the nickname The Yellow Flash. The excellent jutsu was*refined* according to the disciple, who* evolved it *together with the era." []


Not because he has more moves. lol



> against a guy who has 2 Edo Tensei zombies for his Gojo Kibakufuda? Yeah...no. Makes zero sense.





Are those 2 ET fodders better than 2 frogs with SM?

Tobirama's ET is garbage. If Oro's ET of Hashirama & Tobirama lost to fucking CLONES
Tobirama's garbage ET is not doing jack-shit. ESPECIALLY not against a sealing jutsu master. lol

Oh, and the contract seal. 




> Is this a joke? The explosion that destroyed Myojinmon (multiplied by 2 now since Tobirama has 2 ET) is going to be tanked by KCM Minato when KCM cloaks best feats are tanking attacks nowhere near this magnitude of power.



Is this a joke? 

You actually think those 2 fodders who will even be no where near even quarter of their power (I.E Mega fodders? lol)
will be able to keep up with Minato in any way, shape, or form? Or even come close to stop him
in order to use those tags on him?

oh, and weren't those "Myojinmon" destroyed by Asspulldara standing up?

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

When did Madara destroyed Myjinmon by standing up!?

He just got Revived and thats what freed hin from under the Myojinmon!

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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2016)

What does getting revived have to do with Myojinmon getting blown up? 
(The reviving itself)

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## Kai (Aug 17, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Hiraishin can't be faster than Hiraishin so please don't try and assert this nonsense. I'd love for you or anyone supporting Minato here to post where Tobirama came out and said that Minato was faster than him. Minato's Hiraishin being better than Tobirama's is because of how he expanded on it as you said. Literally nothing to do with speed. So Minato having marked Kunai and other expansion techniques lets him win in a battle of speed against a guy who has 2 Edo Tensei zombies for his Gojo Kibakufuda? Yeah...no. Makes zero sense.


Reread the manga KoM.

*Spoiler*: __ 







Minato's ability to teleport single individuals or masses of people simultaneously based on his links to their chakra is faster than anything Tobirama can do with others.

It's only safe to assume a situation is possible where Minato sends ET zombies away faster than Tobirama can bring them back with his original vanilla technique.



			
				KeyofMiracles said:
			
		

> Why do you guys love to bring up the bold without explaining how it changes anything? Yes, we all know that Tobirama would've died if he were alive. Does that change the fact that he reacted to Obito and tagged him before he could get hit? No, it doesn't. If he had been hit first no tag would've been able to be placed. Minato doesn't have a feat that surpasses that nor does he have a statement that puts his reaction speed above Tobirama's so how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that Minato can do the same again?


What is your point here, whether Tobirama touched Obito or Obito touched Tobirama first? Who cares?

Tobirama doesn't lay a tag on Obito without getting half his body ripped apart. Tobirama doesn't lay a tag on Obito without the latter getting distracted by three high tiers.



			
				KeyofMiracles said:
			
		

> KCM Minato got his arm ripped off by Obito before he could even teleport away yet somehow there's reason to put him above Tobirama in reaction speed?


Make no mistake, Minato getting wrecked is one of the greatest scenes in battle. Guess what though. The event of Minato being touched at all was treated as a bigger deal than Tobirama getting hit.



			
				KeyofMiracles said:
			
		

> Let's be 100% serious here. Base Minato barely reacted to Ay.


He didn't expect A to be that fast, initially. Which makes sense because only moments later, Minato avoids A's full speed with less effort than the first time.


Also, chances are someone who "barely reacts" to person B is not someone who is believed to be unsurpassed by person B.

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

Doesnt there Tobira just mean that he unlike MInato can't Telleport everyone at once purely because he doesnt have the Chakra to do so!? I mean FTG 2 Kurama and a Gian Rasengan but Thousands of Shinobi is kinda strain and MInato had Kyubi Chakra to boost him ! ?

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## Kai (Aug 17, 2016)

Chakra certainly wasn't an issue for Tobirama. He warped both Naruto and Minato clad in their Kurama avatars against JJ Obito. Minato stated on his last night that warping the Kyuubi took a lot of chakra.

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## Android (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Doesnt there Tobira just mean that he unlike MInato can't Telleport everyone at once purely because he doesnt have the Chakra to do so!? I mean FTG 2 Kurama and a Gian Rasengan but Thousands of Shinobi is kinda strain and MInato had Kyubi Chakra to boost him ! ?


He also teleported the Juubi's bijuudama in base without breaking a sweat , and i think he had to share his chakra with the SA first before teleporting them , Hinata confirmed this .


Kai said:


> on his last night


Oh don't remind me please  
Also , the thread is getting a lil intensed bro , you may wanna close it moments later

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

Nah don't remember Minato sharing Chakra with the SA,didn't he use the Link Naruto had trough Kyubi Chakra !?

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## hbcaptain (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Nah don't remember Minato sharing Chakra with the SA,didn't he use the Link Naruto had trough Kyubi Chakra !?


Both Kuramas shared their chakra.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Both Kuramas shared their chakra.


That's true,what I meant that Minato did that thanks to having Kurama!


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## Trojan (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Nah don't remember Minato sharing Chakra with the SA,didn't he use the Link Naruto had trough Kyubi Chakra !?


He did.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> That's true,what I meant that Minato did that thanks to having Kurama!


I don't think so since he was halting after the teleportation, then his chakra level was below his base form. Remember that he teleported a full Juubi's TBB without breaking a suit in base.

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

And is that TBB somehow better feat than Teleport Two Kurama and Giant Rasengan without breaking a sweat!?

Well he exhausted his and Kuramas Chakra and thr Shinjuu took the rest!

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## hbcaptain (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> And is that TBB somehow better feat than Teleport Two Kurama and Giant Rasengan without breaking a sweat!?
> 
> Well he exhausted his and Kuramas Chakra and thr Shinjuu took the rest!


Faara better feat if we compare size then :
Juubi's TBB > Juubi seconde form >>>> 1/2 Kurama avatar.

And well, if Shinju took out all his chakra then its sucking power is simply incredible since Minato was fighting with BM activated.

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## pluuuuffff (Aug 17, 2016)

Well...

Minato has shown more feats than Tobirama did... But Tobirama feats are above his.

Minato lost an arm when he attacked Juubito... Tobirama marked him.

In the battle between Tobirama + Naruto + Sasuke + Minato vs Juubito, Tobirama was the one that deciphered Obito's Jutsu, and helped Naruto to hit the Senjutsu Rasengan.. Meanwhile, Minato was thinking about the stars.

Ah, and Tobirama almost got Madara with the Hiraishin Giri... That I think that was a failure because of the Rimbo: Hengoku technique, since Tobirama had the upper hand in the last pannel.

Not only this... Madara stated that both Hashirama and Tobirama were far from their level. 

So, even though Tobirama openly admitted that Minato's Hiraishin was better than his... I think that by hype, he would defeat Minato.

But, I also agree with Turin, when he says that Minato knowledge about the Hiraishin variations of Tobirama gives him an edge, while the Nidaime Hokage doesn't know anything about the Minato variations.

In level I see Tobirama ahead... In this fight, I might see an advantage to Minato.

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 17, 2016)

Kai said:


> Reread the manga KoM.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Uh no. Read that again Kai. He says he can't move *everyone simultaneously* like Minato can. What he says literally has nothing to do with speed. That's amount of people/things being transported.  Hiraishin is Hiraishin. It's instant. There is no difference in speed, only in activation and that has to do with reactions, not with what this scan is talking about. 

As the poster above me already stated that's obviously a chakra issue. Being able to warp 2 Kurama Avatars (who aren't as large as Full Kurama himself so the Minato reference is irrelevant) doesn't mean he can warp an entire army on his own, and even if it's not a chakra issue, nothing in the Manga even begins to hint at a speed issue.




> What is your point here, whether Tobirama touched Obito or Obito touched Tobirama first? Who cares?
> 
> Tobirama doesn't lay a tag on Obito without getting half his body ripped apart. Tobirama doesn't lay a tag on Obito without the latter getting distracted by three high tiers.



Did Tobirama react? Yes or no. The answer is yes so do us all a favor and stop tap dancing around the point like the people who support Minato in this match up love to do. This feat is to gauge his reactions, and those reactions let him react to someone as fast as Obito while Minato has no feats that let him react to someone as fast as Obito. Not sure how hard this is to understand. 




> Make no mistake, Minato getting wrecked is one of the greatest scenes in battle. Guess what though. The event of Minato being touched at all was treated as a bigger deal than Tobirama getting hit.




Tobirama gets hit:
whenever he wants

-Minato says fast. Naruto says "what?!" and Sasuke has a look of shock on his face.

Minato gets hit:
whenever he wants

-Naruto says "Dad!" and Sasuke simply says "Get Ready!". 

There is literally nothing in these interactions that'd lead you to believe that Minato getting hit was made out to be a bigger deal. Nothing special occurred that'd validate this claim so I'm not even sure where it came from in the first place. 




> He didn't expect A to be that fast, initially. Which makes sense because only moments later, Minato avoids A's full speed with less effort than the first time.
> 
> 
> Also, chances are someone who "barely reacts" to person B is not someone who is believed to be unsurpassed by person B.



Read that back, again. Ay said he'd force Minato to teleport AND THEN get him with Shunshin/Super Speed. Ay ran at Minato and Minato easily dodged him. Ay wasn't going to use Shunshin until Minato had already teleported as that scan clearly states. So no, Minato hasn't ever easily reacted to Ay's speed. He was surprised the first time and Ay almost hit him from that distance. 


At the end of the day the feats tell the true story, not you guy's misconstruction of the Manga. Where are the feats that put Base Minato's reactions on the level of Tobirama's? Cause I see KCM Minato getting wrecked by Obito before he can warp while Tobirama can tag Obito before Obito can Shunshin and rip half his body off.

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## Mithos (Aug 17, 2016)

I think Minato is supposed to be seen as more powerful. Aside from more hype throughout the manga, Tobirama admitted that Minato has a faster shunshin and a more advanced FTG than he does. While these are not their only techniques, they form the backbone of both these former Hokages' fighting styles, and are their main forms of offense and defense. Since Minato basically took Tobirama's techniques and expanded upon them, I think he's supposed to be seen as superior.

If we look at their other techniques, we have an incomplete Edo Tensei (inferior to the one used by Orochimaru in Part I - who, like Minato, took one of the Second Hokage's techniques and furthered it), mastery of the water element, and high intelligence, for Tobirama; on the other hand, Minato has Rasengan, sealing techniques, toad summons, and some form of Sage Mode. Even discounting their shared signature techniques, Minato seems to have more going for him overall, in my opinion.

I don't think Tobirama's intelligence is enough to overcome his inferior shunshin, FTG, and secondary arsenal.

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## ARGUS (Aug 17, 2016)

Alive minatos best feat - reacting to V2 Ay

Edo Tobiramas best feat - reacting to Juubito

Minato fanboys - Minato is more reflexive than Tobirmaa 
Implying that V2 Ay is faster than Juubito 

And that "plot" nerfed minato despite him having the whole boost of KCM yet still gets outshined by Tobirama in reactions 

Absolutely nothing implies that alive minato could react to Juubito when he struggled against V2 Ays shunshin. Not when even KCM minato failed to replicate what Tobirmaa did.

Lol then the retards bring the whole BS of Tobirama being an Edo 
Minato was also an Edo, did he even get close to doing what Tobirma did?
He failed to even touch Juubito and the second he tried attacking, he got his arm chopped off and a TSB on his arm that could have potentially turned him to ash right there and then had it not been for Tobirama

Let's please cut the bias and the delusional anime character fantasies and stick to actually what happened in the manga and not bring the whole plot BS

Inb4 - Minato has faster shunshin, lol changes absolutely nothing, see KCM Naruto vs Rinnegan Obito and watch him fail miserably

Inb4 - Minato has better mastery of FTG when any advantage he has on that is null and void in this battle

-snip-

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

Expanding something someone already created doesn't make you stronger or better than the one who created the thing from scratch! 

Their FTG is basically the same,with Minato using more Kunais,and Tobirama marks Kunais as he goes which can be more surprising than when you know all the Kunai are Marked. 

The only advantage Minato has I his Shunshin which in the case doesn't makes such big of a difference!

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

Minato is stronger and etc. just because he is Minato. He beats this and that and those well you know because he is Minato!

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## Mithos (Aug 17, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Minato is stronger and etc. just because he is Minato. He beats this and that and those well you know because he is Minato!



No.

He's stronger because he's better at Tobirama's own techniques, per Tobirama's admission. People can deny it all they want, trying to use "superior reaction feats" as an excuse. Minato can beat Tobirama at his own game; it's that simple.

It's a difficult fight either way, but when the author goes out of his way to have Tobirama make _multiple_ statements in which he admits inferiority to Minato in various aspects, you're ignoring canon if you argue differently.

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 17, 2016)

"Multiple statements" you mean "You are better at Shunshin than me Fourth" and "You are quick to act" (,no 100% quotes,just paraphrasing it in close sounding by memory) yeah,that absolutely makes Minato Leagues and Tiers above Tobirama. Tobirama was basically fan boying about Minato all the time and how he is everything he never was,and how much better and amazing he was in everything,unlike himself

When Tobirama is impressed and praises Minato everyone are noticing and using it ,but when Minato is impressed by Tobirama thats nothing. If Minato shows something it is a God Miracle,if Tobirama shows something similar or even better it is nah,Minato was that and this,Tobirama had that and this,it is not the same ....and so on same shit always. That's why I mainly abstain from participating in this kind of threads!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 17, 2016)

Mithos said:


> No.
> 
> He's stronger because he's better at Tobirama's own techniques, per Tobirama's admission. People can deny it all they want, trying to use "superior reaction feats" as an excuse. Minato can beat Tobirama at his own game; it's that simple.
> 
> It's a difficult fight either way, but when the author goes out of his way to have Tobirama make _multiple_ statements in which he admits inferiority to Minato in various aspects, you're ignoring canon if you argue differently.



Tobirama's Hiraishin can't move as many people as Minato's. Tobirama's foot speed is inferior to Minato's. Minato's Hiraishin has more associated techs than Tobirama's. You people sound dumb as all hell grasping to  areas where Tobirama is inferior that barely affect the actual outcome of the battle only to write off reaction speed as an "excuse" for why he wins.

Though considering Minato supporters literally have barely any kind of argument to stand on, it's not surprising to see these kinds of half-assed arguments.

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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2016)

Mithos said:


> No.
> 
> He's stronger because he's better at Tobirama's own techniques, per Tobirama's admission.



Wouldn't you say the same for minato fans using the same excuse 
Things minato is superior: 
1. Faster shunshin - irrelevant when it won't affect Tobirma in any way 

2. Carrying more people around Through FTG - irrelevant in a 1v1 battle

3. Having more marked kunais - irrelevant when Tobirama can do the same. 
Irrelevant when a few marked locations and reactions are all what's needed to evade his attacks that lack AOE 



> *
> People can deny it all they want, trying to use "superior reaction feats" as an excuse*.


Do you know how S/T ninjutsu works? 
Having more kunai or faster shunshin is trash if the user lacks the reactions to execute these in time 
As shown with minato against juubi Jins 

Whoever has the faster reactions is the one who executes his jutsu first and lands the attack or has more time to counter the incoming attack 

This is already shown in 
 -- RT Madara vs Tobirmaa 
 -- minato vs Obito 
 -- Jin Madara vs minato 
 -- Juubito vs KCM minato 



> Minato can beat Tobirama at his own game; it's that simple.
> 
> It's a difficult fight either way, but when the author goes out of his way to have Tobirama make _multiple_ statements in which he admits inferiority to Minato in various aspects, you're ignoring canon if you argue differently.


the aspects where Tobirma admits inferiorty hold no weight in this battle 

The logic you're using is the same as saying that 
Tsunade can beat Hashirama in a 1v1 fight because she can heal entire armies  

Author shows minatos usage of FTG being more advanced but what about the instance where he has KCM minato look in awe and about to be blown up before Tobirmaa defends him and attacks Juubito before minato could even act?

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## Mithos (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Tobirama's Hiraishin can't move as many people as Minato's. Tobirama's foot speed is inferior to Minato's. Minato's Hiraishin has more associated techs than Tobirama's. You people sound dumb as all hell grasping to  areas where Tobirama is inferior that barely affect the actual outcome of the battle only to write off reaction speed as an "excuse" for why he wins.
> 
> Though considering Minato supporters literally have barely any kind of argument to stand on, it's not surprising to see these kinds of half-assed arguments.



What do you mean barely affect the outcome? Minato can do everything Tobirama can do with FTG, but the reverse isn't true. That's a big disadvantage when they otherwise fight similarly.

The reaction speed argument in favor of Tobirama isn't strong at all. Both fighters can react to each other, so whoever wins will come down to the traps and technical moves they pull off. Having a more advanced FTG gives Minato an advantage here.

Then there's the fact that Tobirama likely _doesn't_ even have better reactions than Minato to begin with. Minato's reaction speed was specifically hyped when Shee compared the Fourth Raikage's reaction speed to Minato's and called them "as fast as lightning." Tobirama doesn't have that hype, and his feats have already been explained. Tobirama managed to mark Juubito but was sliced in half in the process, so I don't see how that puts him above Minato. And his other feat was down during a team effort and the enemy was _distracted, _and Tobirama admitted that. Sakura managed to land a blow on Kaguya while she was distracted despite Kaguya's Byakugan, but I don't see anyone claiming Sakura has godlike speed because of it. 

Tobirama's reaction speed didn't save him from almost getting killed by Kinkaku/Ginkaku, even when backed up by the Third Raikage; it didn't stop him from getting killed by the Ginkaku squad; it didn't stop him from getting pinned to the ground by Rinnegan Madara. He can - and has - been hit by opponents much slower than Juubito. He can and will be hit by Minato.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

> [="ARGUS, post: 55956409, member: 240135"]Alive minatos best feat - reacting to V2 Ay


Alive Tobirama's best feat is getting fodderstompped by Kin/Gin.



> Edo Tobiramas best feat - reacting to Juubito



Edo Minato best feat- reaction to 8th Gate 5th Step Gai


> Minato fanboys - Minato is more reflexive than Tobirmaa




Tobirama fanboys - Tobirama is more reflexive than Minato! 



> Implying that V2 Ay is faster than Juubito



implying Kinkaku is faster than 8th Gates 5th step Gai! 



> And that "plot" nerfed minato despite him having the whole boost of KCM yet still gets outshined by Tobirama in reactions



Yes, we all know that retard Obito is faster than 8th Gates Gai, if all people are as hypocrites as you are and their eyes blinded with wank goggles we might see it as you do. 




> Absolutely nothing implies that alive minato could react to Juubito when he struggled against V2 Ays shunshin. Not when even KCM minato failed to replicate what Tobirmaa did.




Absolutly nothing implies that alive Tobirama could react to 8th Gates 5th steps Gai when he got killed by Kinkaku who was not even using his Kurama's chakra.


> Lol then the retards bring the whole BS of Tobirama being an Edo
> Minato was also an Edo, did he even get close to doing what Tobirma did?


Maybe if you got your @$$ away from Tobirama's .... , did Tobirama got close to react to 8th Gates Gai?



> He failed to even touch Juubito and the second he tried attacking, he got his arm chopped off and a TSB on his arm that could have potentially turned him to ash right there and then had it not been for Tobirama


Maybe if you stopped being R you can see it?

Did they face the same character with the same power?
Is the Jinchuurikis fighting KCM Narudo was the same as fighting BM Naruto who defeated all of them in 5 minutes?






> Let's please cut the bias and the delusional anime character fantasies and stick to actually what happened in the manga and not bring the whole plot BS


Indeed, and you should follow your own advice because your hypocrisy almost makes me through up of how disgusting it is. Even worst is you are trying to come off as the enlighten one when you KNOWGNLY ignore Minato's best feat (reacting to Gai) and making it as reacting to A is his best feat.

Absolutely disgusting. 


> Inb4 - Minato has faster shunshin, lol changes absolutely nothing, see KCM Naruto vs Rinnegan Obito and watch him fail miserably



indeed, just like how Tobirama's "JJ Obito" reaction feat did not save him against Kinkaku and Ginkaku. But we have to ride Tobirama's ....  like you do right?  



> Inb4 - Minato has better mastery of FTG when any advantage he has on that is null and void in this battle





Having Tobirama's best jutsu better than him is null. Oh God, is there a limit for S?

It's like saying someone with MS does not have any advantage over someone with Sharingan.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> "Multiple statements" you mean "You are better at Shunshin than me Fourth" and "You are quick to act" (,no 100% quotes,just paraphrasing it in close sounding by memory) yeah,that absolutely makes Minato Leagues and Tiers above Tobirama. Tobirama was basically fan boying about Minato all the time and how he is everything he never was,and how much better and amazing he was in everything,unlike himself
> 
> When Tobirama is impressed and praises Minato everyone are noticing and using it ,but when Minato is impressed by Tobirama thats nothing. If Minato shows something it is a God Miracle,if Tobirama shows something similar or even better it is nah,Minato was that and this,Tobirama had that and this,it is not the same ....and so on same shit always. That's why I mainly abstain from participating in this kind of threads!



- Minato is superior to Tobirama because his feats/hype are superior. Tobirama's fanboys can be as delusional as they want about it, but
what is shown and stated in the manga are different things.


They both started from the exact same point, and yet Minato arrived much faster and could do more things that Tobirama
(S/T barrier, Kunais around the Juubi, and having a small talk with his kid)



Tobirama got far more damage than Minato did. Even tho Tobirama faced a weaker opponent, It is no different than KCM Naruto getting a massive increase in power when he achieved BM and was able to overwhelm 5 Bijuus at the same time. Likewise, Obito's Gedu-Damas
increased 5 times, and gained the ability to effect ET and kill them when it previously did not. 



Although both of them got destroyed, but yet again, Minato faced the FAR stronger opponent, but I will assume Tobirama's fanboys will
claim that Asspulldara getting the Juubi's power up did not make any different, right? 
and even here, Tobirama got more damage as he is out of the battle completely where Minato was still there doing more work...



Tobirama took 1 Gedu-Dama? Minato took out 5 completely and effectively made JJ Asspulldara weaker for the rest of the fight.
Some hypocrites take Tobirama's feat with Obito in term of reaction even tho he got cut in half, but here Minato used FTG in and out
and 8th Gate 5th Steps Gai did not move an inch in comparison, but they completely disregard this feat! 



While Tobirama can handle one, he was asking Minato to handle more. Once again shown Minato's superiority over him at his biggest gun.



When Tobirama teleported 2 fodders, Minato teleported all SA outside of the barrier. 

Everything Tobirama did, Minato did in a bigger scale. Only the blind who can't see this...


That's their feats during the 4th War. And yet, even if you want to compare what they did alive, Minato still was taken on the stronger opponents and achieving more feats than Tobirama could.

Example 1:

Tobirama alongside 2nd Raikage fought Kinkaku and Ginkaku the first time, and he nearly got killed. The 2nd time he was with his students against Kin & Gin + 18 other opponents and he got killed. The praise he got from Gin was "We fucking wiped the floor with him"

On the other side, Minato took on A & B who are known to be the strongest tag-team on Kumo multiple times. And what he gets
is "I thought he is someone who cannot be surpassed" (Paraphrased) and B trumbling by hearing his name. 


A huge different between the 2


Example 2:

Tobirama fought a small number of fodders (18 without counting Kin & Gin) and yet his students did not believe that they can take on them. Or that they can handle those fodders easily and then take on Kin/Gin. Meanwhile, Minato was litterelly destroying Armies on brought vectory to Konoha.

Example 3:

Tobirama took on Izuna (literally his ONLY win shown in the manga ) whom we don't even know anything about to say hom impressive/unimpressive that is. 

While Minato took on Obito, the one with the most broken eyes in the uchiha clan, and took on Full Kurama and sealed it. Meanwhile,
Tobirama couldn't take on Kurama's SHIT 


And the list goes on and on...

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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Alive minatos best feat - reacting to V2 Ay
> 
> Edo Tobiramas best feat - reacting to Juubito
> 
> ...



Edo minato best feat reacting to 8G gai 

Calling that an inconsistency is as much an inconsistency as tobirama reacting to juubito 

Considering who he got killed by

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## Seekingsoul (Aug 18, 2016)

Hussain; that's as brilliant a comparison one could make... I lmao:ho

Like Turrin said, the most powerful benefit FGT provides in battle is the element of surprise; and we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Minato essentially took Tobi's most powerful weapon and metamorphosed its application in battle in such a way that he earned the title, "the yellow flash".

While on the subject of the element of surprise, we saw how Tobi was able to surprise a superior -- marked -- opponent in Obito at the expense of complete bodily obliteration; In comparison, Minato was able to prevent complete bodily obliteration against an unmarked, even more superior opponent than the one Tobi faced. I find it suspect that Minato's mark on Obito was somehow removed while Tobi wasn't. I especially find it suspect that the DB mentioned Minato performance being hampered by the discomforting news of his former student -- Tobi -- being the instigator of the War. It's as if Kishimoto himself is perturbed just thinking about the potential changes the man alone could bring to the battlefield.

As far as their alive feats go, we have two of Kumo's rogue nin basically discarding Tobi like he was trash; in contrast, Kumo's strongest tag team regard Minato as the stuff of legends.

As far as hype and feats are concerned, the battle of speed is easily Minato's to win as his natural speed and FGT is demonstratively superior, and he's regarded as the better in the Naruto universe.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

With all of Minato's hype and feats, when he react to Gai is inconsistency.

Meanwhile, Tobirama gets his ass kicked by Kin/Gin 2 times at least, and gets defeated by Asspulldara...etc
but him "reacting" (Which is not really a reaction seeing he got trashed, that's as retarded as saying a person who got hit by a truck and died reacted to it ) to Obito is not an inconsistency despite never happening before or being able to pull off the feat against a far slower opponent latter.  

@ARGUS is hopeless.

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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Edo minato best feat reacting to 8G gai
> 
> Calling that an inconsistency is as much an inconsistency as tobirama reacting to juubito


Minato *never *reacted to 8G guy  
Even Jin Madara was struggling against his speed. And we have already seen him treat minato like dirt, 
Lol minato struggled against V2 Ay yet now he's reacting to someone 3
Tiers above his speed  


All he did was teleport the TSB away the second they touched him 

To be fair that feat has more to do with Rock Lee since he was the one who actually managed to toss the kunai in the distance between guy and Madara 


> Considering who he got killed by


Let's actually stick to events where we have more evidence and have actual feats 

What's shown >> what's implied 
New manga events > old 

Lol we don't even know the circumstances of that battle

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

> [="ARGUS, post: 55957202, member: 240135"]Minato *never *reacted to 8G guy
> Even Jin Madara was struggling against his speed. And we have already seen him treat minato like dirt,
> Lol minato struggled against V2 Ay yet now he's reacting to someone 3
> Tiers above his speed


ARGUS, you need to go to mental health institution. This feat really did wonders to you.



You are really being pathetic.

Why don't you say "Tobirama never reacted to JJ Obito because he got killed by Kin who is even far slower than A"??







> To be fair that feat has more to do with Rock Lee since he was the one who actually managed to toss the kunai in the distance between guy and Madara



Yes, lee is the one who did the teleportation now. 


> Let's actually stick to events where we have more evidence and have actual feats
> 
> What's shown >> what's implied
> New manga events > old
> ...



We know he got killed, and we know they wiped the floor with him. Stop being dumb as fuck.

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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> With all of Minato's hype and feats, when he react to Gai is inconsistency.


Except he never reacted to guy
So not sure why the complaining 



> Meanwhile, Tobirama gets his ass kicked by Kin/Gin 2 times at least, and gets defeated by Asspulldara...etc
> but him "reacting" (Which is not really a reaction seeing he got trashed,


Atleast he managed to tag a juubi Jin 
Minato couldn't even manage that  



> that's as retarded as saying a person who got hit by a truck and died reacted to it ) to Obito is not an inconsistency despite never happening before or being able to pull off the feat against a far slower opponent latter.
> 
> @ARGUS is hopeless.


If I mentally react to a bullet but still get hit, then no matter what happens I'll still be much much more reflexive than the clown who "barely" reacts to a football

Minato fans/hussains logic - ohh minato reacted to a football, he's sooo stronk sooo fast. 
Tobirma is rubbish becuse even if he reacted to a bullet, he still got hit, he so slow because football is faster

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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 18, 2016)

@Mithos and @Hussain have literally soloed this thread, this argument is getting extremely ridiculous. I don't believe they, nor am I saying that Minato will effortlessly blitz and stomp Tobirama into the ground. But saying that Tobirama is stronger than Minato, let alone KCM Minato, is unsupported by the Manga and Databooks themselves. You're denying canon and being intellectually dishonest if you're going to keep saying Tobirama, the guy who got "fucking floored" by base Kinkaku and Ginkaku, and later annihilated by the Kinkaku Force (Who aren't even officially confirmed to contain Kin and Gin, and likely didn't), is portrayed as stronger than Minato: the guy who defeated MS Obito in five seconds who was believed to be Madara Uchiha by everyone he met due to his prowess; and took on and defeated a complete Kurama ultimately saving Konohagakure.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

> ="ARGUS, post: 55957236, member: 240135"]Except he never reacted to guy
> So not sure why the complaining
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure if trolling, or you are simply too stupid. 
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, what do you call this?


Heck, don't even consider Gai.
Those 5 Gedu-Dama COULDN'T do any damage to Minato because of how fast he reacted.
Meanwhile, Tobirama got DESTROYED by them.  



> If I mentally react to a bullet but still get hit, then no matter what happens I'll still be much much more reflexive than the clown who "barely" reacts to a football



Wow, even your comparison is retarded.

Tobirama would be the clown who did NOT even react to the football (He got his body destroyed)
Where Minato did not even get hit by the "Bullet"

Just to make sure, have you hit your head with anything lately so hard? Because this unbelievably retarded. 


> Minato fans/hussains logic - ohh minato reacted to a football, he's sooo stronk sooo fast.
> Tobirma is rubbish becuse even if he reacted to a bullet, he still got hit, he so slow because football is faster


Holy shit, even your reading comprehension is garbage! 

Gai is faster than Obito, so he is the bullet here.
Obito is the slower one here, and he TRASHED Tobirama.

You SERIOUSLY need help.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

It's a shame *Argus *is still covering his eyes from seeing this feat :

He said Minato's best feat is reacting to V2 Ei but apparently not 

Someone who is saying only feats count.....

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> It's a shame *Argus *is still covering his eyes from seeing this feat :


What is truly shameful is I previously thought that I could deal with him as in an intelligent debater. 
I feel betrayed. 

His *dishonesty* is way beyond anything I ever imagined him to be. -_-
Very pathetic indeed.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> What is truly shameful is I previously thought that I could deal with him as in an intelligent debater.
> I feel betrayed.
> 
> His *dishonesty* is way beyond anything I ever imagined him to be. -_-
> Very pathetic indeed.


I think as far as it doesn't concern Minato vs Tobirama thread, *Argus *is one of the best posters, but only here you have to follow your own advice, don't lose your time because even if you said so, few hours later he will say again that Mianto's best feat is reacting to V2 Ei.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I think as far as it doesn't concern Minato vs Tobirama thread, *Argus *is one of the best posters, but only here you have to follow your own advice, don't lose your time because even if you said so, few hours later he will say again that Mianto's best feat is reacting to V2 Ei.


In the other threads he is, ok I guess... 
Altho I find his "mid difficult at most" to be stupid TBH. 

I am only debating him because I am bored now and there isn't many other options. 
I know he is hopeless

Altho I am not sure which one is worst, being bored or losing brain cells from reading his posts.

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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> ARGUS, you need to go to mental health institution. This feat really did wonders to you.
> 
> 
> 
> You are really being pathetic.


Minato didn't even react to guy nor did he react to Jin Madara 
He just teleported the second the TSB hit him 
So really he only managed to react to TSB which are still about the only speed as V2 Ay who is far slower than Juubito 



> Why don't you say "Tobirama never reacted to JJ Obito because he got killed by Kin who is even far slower than A"??


If Tobirmaa got killed by kin/gin then it'll be about power not a battle of speed 
So irrelevant 


> Yes, lee is the one who did the teleportation now.


Wasn't he the one who actually tossed the kunai? 
Or does minato get that feat 
Let's give every feat to minato now, because hussain wants us to 

Why just stop at speed 
Just say that minatos Rasengans are stronger than INdras Arrow or kaguyas Expansive TSB 



> We know he got killed, and we know they wiped the floor with him. Stop being dumb as fuck.


the only thing dumb as fuck is you saying that minato reacting to V2 Ay is a better feat than reacting to Juubito

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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I think as far as it doesn't concern Minato vs Tobirama thread, *Argus *is one of the best posters, but only here you have to follow your own advice, don't lose your time because even if you said so, few hours later he will say again that Mianto's best feat is reacting to V2 Ei.


It's not that Im stubborn 
It's because it is his best feat 
I used to be on the same boat saying that minato is a better version of Tobirma but in a battle of S/T it's all about reactions, and what's shown supports that Tobirma is superior 

There is nothing else behind it 








Hussain said:


> What is truly shameful is I previously thought that I could deal with him as in an intelligent debater.
> I feel betrayed.
> 
> His *dishonesty* is way beyond anything I ever imagined him to be. -_-
> Very pathetic indeed.


What's with the words "dishonesty" and "hypocrisy" 
Did I hurt your feelings by saying that minato loses? 



Hussain said:


> In the other threads he is, ok I guess...
> Altho I find his "mid difficult at most" to be stupid TBH.


What's wrong with saying mid diff


You have been against that saying for over 2 years. 
I'm not the only one who uses it you know 



> I am only debating him because I am bored now and there isn't many other options.
> I know he is hopeless
> 
> Altho I am not sure which one is worst, being bored or losing brain cells from reading his posts.


Yeah you have too much time on your hands, responding me with essays worth of gibberish that have little to no actual content 
Just insults  

Sigh. I can never debate you about anything related to minato 
 

Hussains minato is stronger than even Kaguya

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> It's not that Im stubborn
> It's because it is his best feat
> I used to be on the same boat saying that minato is a better version of Tobirma but in a battle of S/T it's all about reactions, and what's shown supports that Tobirma is superior


First you are wrong, in S/T battle the combos and the capacity to coordinate with FTG is also one of the most important things and Minato surpasses Tobirama here.
You are wrong Minato showed better feats than Tobirama, he only looked impressive because Juubito was marked (and even so he said Juubito can isntantly kill him if he continue teleporting behind him) while Minato attempted a direct non-FTG CQC and only lost one arm while he was confused.
And talking about feats, Base Minato was much more impressive than all what Tobirama did, as the manga showed in the gif above.


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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

> ="ARGUS, post: 55957597, member: 240135"]Minato didn't even react to guy nor did he react to Jin Madara
> He just teleported the second the TSB hit him
> So really he only managed to react to TSB which are still about the only speed as V2 Ay who is far slower than Juubito


So, let me see.

> A goes at full speed at Minato
> Minato dodges
> You agree that he reacted to him.

> Gai goes at full speed at Minato's direction
> Minato teleport out
> Now you disagree that it's a reaction feat



What is the different between the Gedu-Dama, A, And Gai? 
All of them went towards him at full speed. 




> If Tobirmaa got killed by kin/gin then it'll be about power not a battle of speed
> So irrelevant


Power is irrelevant if they don't hit the opponent. Which means, Kin/Gin MUST have been able to hit Tobirama in order to kill him.
Where was his speed and reaction back then? Or he forgot to use them? 



> Wasn't he the one who actually tossed the kunai?
> Or does minato get that feat
> Let's give every feat to minato now, because hussain wants us to
> 
> ...



Stop putting pathetic excuses and trying to twist the argument to fit your agenda. That's very pathetic.

Yes, Lee does get the feat to be able to throw the Kunai that fast and far. HOWEVER, his threw has NOTHING to do with the teleportation *itself*. Or are you going to say that Lee's throwing the Kunai made Minato's teleportation and reaction faster or something? 



> the only thing dumb as fuck is you saying that minato reacting to V2 Ay is a better feat than reacting to Juubito



And you now lying? How low can you sink? 
Where did I say it's his feat against A that is better? Cuz I am pretty sure I am talking about Gai all this time. 



> [="ARGUS, post: 55957626, member: 240135"]
> What's with the words "dishonesty" and "hypocrisy"
> Did I hurt your feelings by saying that minato loses?



No, but rather how far you sunk with your dishonesty and hypocrisy.
You have absolutely no credibility.

You even started to flat out lie in order to serve your agenda. This is an example


> the only thing dumb as fuck is you saying that minato reacting to V2 Ay is a better feat than reacting to Juubito



You really should be ashamed of yourself. 


> What's wrong with saying mid diff



> All fights are "Mid difficult"
> X wins against 2 characters mid difficult
> Through in a 100 fighter in addition to those 2,  and the fight will still be "Mid difficult"


Yeah, that's really dumb....


> You have been against that saying for over 2 years.
> I'm not the only one who uses it you know


You aren't the only one who says "Mid difficult" but you are the only one who does that with litterelly EVERY. SINGLE. FIGHT. EVER!

Not as that important to the debate at hand as of right now.




> Yeah you have too much time on your hands, responding me with essays worth of gibberish that have little to no actual content
> Just insults



Little no content? You never replied to any comparesion. 
And you flat out deny feats, and you even LIE in order to prove a point like you just did. 




> Hussains minato is stronger than even Kaguya



Well, his sperm did seal her, so I guess you are right. 

(For the thick people, that's just a joke)

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

Mithos said:


> What do you mean barely affect the outcome?* Minato can do everything Tobirama can do with FTG, but the reverse isn't true.* That's a big disadvantage when they otherwise fight similarly.
> 
> The reaction speed argument in favor of Tobirama isn't strong at all. Both fighters can react to each other, so whoever wins will come down to the traps and technical moves they pull off. *Having a more advanced FTG gives Minato an advantage here.*
> 
> ...



And you've yet to actually explain what your argument actually entails, which is something you can't do because you and I both already know that whatever advantages Minato's Hiraishin has over Tobirama's aren't important in this combat. Minato can move more people, how does that let him beat Minato? Minato has more expansion techs such as Guiding Thunder, how does that let him beat Tobirama?  I point out the issue with your arguments and you continue with the same vague nonsense. Come on now man. "Both fighters can react to each other" is true, but that doesn't mean that the fight comes down to traps, and even if it did Tobirama has 2 giant exploding bombs while Minato has Rasengan.  Tobirama in terms of reactions, is faster. That's how Hiraishin operates. So Minato is the one who is most likely to get hit first.

 Stop it. Stop it right now. Madara said Tobirama was hailed as the fastest shinobi. That puts his hype at the same level as Minato's. 'fastest shinobi hype'>Fast as lightning or anything similar'. Tobirama's feats surpass Minato's too but of course you've tap danced around that like every other Minato supporter in this thread because you have no answer for what is drawn clearly on the panel. His other feat isn't a reaction feat so I don't know why Minato supporters brought it up in the first place, probably to cover up the fact there is no real retort for him reacting to Obito previously.

Did he react to Obito before Obito could hit him? Yes or no. Simple question. Stop bringing irrelevant variables into the discussion. Kai tried to pull the same nonsense. I'm not debating whether or not Tobirama can pull off that maneuver and come out unscathed. This point is used to gauge Tobirama's reactions, and said reactions let him react to Obito as the Juubi's Jinchuuriki. Minato's best feat is reacting to Ay. Where are the feats that put Minato above Tobirama? Where is the hype? All you guys have are statements irrelevant to speed or strength. Tobirama was fast enough to tag Obito before that side of his body was ripped apart. Hiraishin takes a thought, which is faster than physical movement but I can't wait to see how Minato supporters will dance around this one. He could've escaped and warped if he had a tag placed and if he wanted to while when Minato came face to face with Obito he got his arm taken before he could even teleport.  Where are the feats that put Minato above Tobirama?

-Minato isn't Ginkaku and Kinkaku.
-Minato isn't the Kinkaku Squad.
-Minato isn't Madara.
-Minato isn't Juubito.

So why are you mentioning Tobirama having issues or losing to these people as if it changes the facts that Minato's feats aren't on the level of Tobirama's in the reaction speed department?  3 paragraphs and you've literally said nothing of substance. Just that because people slower than Obito have hit Tobirama, Minato can hit him too even though these people's movesets are completely different than Minato's, with 2 of these people being far stronger than your boy Minato can ever hope to be in this Manga. So let's cut the bullshit already and debate like you have some common sense.

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> First you are wrong, in S/T battle *the combos and the capacity to coordinate with FTG is also one of the most important things and Minato surpasses Tobirama here.*
> You are wrong Minato showed better feats than Tobirama, he only looked impressive because Juubito was marked (and even so he said Juubito can isntantly kill him if he continue teleporting behind him) while Minato attempted a direct non-FTG CQC and only lost one arm while he was confused.
> And talking about feats, Base Minato was much more impressive than all what Tobirama did, as the manga showed in the gif above.



Lmao look at this. The same idiotic, vague arguments with no substance. Do you Minato fans/supporters have a book of trash arguments that you all flip through before you post? Do you even know what you typed? Probably not, you are just saying stuff at this point.

 Wow! Now Minato fans are using Minato getting raped by Obito before he could think and warp away as evidence that he's faster than Tobirama? Talk about being desparate. Do you even read the Manga kiddo? After Obito put up his guard he said if they (as in all of them not just Tobirama you selective reading little fan) try to warp behind him again with any more combo attacks they'll be killed in an instant. Minato attempted CQC with Obito who didn't have that guard up and still got his arm taken *before *he could warp away.

Tobirama surpasses Minato in reaction speed, firepower, area of effect and intelligence. Good luck arguing that Minato wins.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Tobirama surpasses Minato in reaction speed, firepower, area of effect and intelligence. Good luck arguing that Minato wins.


You should pass a compment in Hussan's mention, again :

Minato >>>>>>> Tobirama in reaction speed.

The poor fossil got negged by a mere SM Madara :

The same who can't last even 1 fragment of second against red Gai
And I guess a mere SM Madara who is <<<<<<< red Gai whom Minato easily teleported against at a blank range is faster than Juubito, the same one who sliced KCM Minato's arm himself much faster and reflexive than Base Minato

Here is Minato's reaction after Juubito regained consciousness :

Who got distracted by who . But it's normal, Tobirama fans can read the manga well when it comes to Minato. It's not even Minato who got distracted but...Juubito.

And no the only thing Tobirama surpasses Mianto is knowledge and slightly physical strengh (it's a non factor tough since he is not more than one cut above normal people).

Minato is above in all other fields such us Fuinjutsu, FTg (their main fighting style) , reactions (ask red Gai), speed, Shunshin, swiftness, CQC firepower (where Tobirama is limited to a mere sword)

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> And no the only thing Tobirama surpasses Mianto is knowledge and slightly physical strengh (it's a non factor tough since he is not more than one cut above normal people).


How is Tobirama better than Minato in the physical strength? 



> speed, Shunshin, swiftness,



Frankly, those are the same thing basically...

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> You should pass a compment in Hussan's mention, again :
> 
> Minato >>>>>>> Tobirama in reaction speed.
> 
> ...



This has all been addressed multiple times.

-Gai feat is irrelevant as Gai wasn't going full speed. If Gai was going full speed then Gaara's Sand wouldn't be keeping up with him.

-Minato's best feat is reacting to Ay.
-Tobirama's is reacting to a Juubi's Jin.
-Minato is only superior in areas that have jack shit to do with the outcome of the battle.

Try replying with something that has substance, but I know that'll be hard for you given the fact you have no common sense. The fact you are taking arguments from Hussain, one of the most retarded people on this entire forum, says a lot.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> How is Tobirama better than Minato in the physical strength?


I don't know but let them got the edge here to make it fear otherwise they will go throught depression 



> Frankly, those are the same thing basically...


speed means also striking and running speed, Shunshin is only running speed.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> -Gai feat is irrelevant as Gai wasn't going full speed. If Gai was going full speed then Gaara's Sand wouldn't be keeping up with him.




In the manga Minato tells him to not stop at anything and whatnot

> Fanboys somehow measured his speed and knew that he slow down somehow. 
talk about depressed.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

> This has all been addressed multiple times.
> 
> -Gai feat is irrelevant as Gai wasn't going full speed. If Gai was going full speed then Gaara's Sand wouldn't be keeping up with him.
> 
> ...


Nonsens, the same applies to Tobirama if KCM Minato went full speed, Tobirama won't catch the ball before him because he already recognzed Minato's move speed.
Red Gai never loed down, that's a fanfic invented by Tobirama fans/Mianto haters.
Yet even Gudo Dama speed is far superior to SM Madara speed.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

Is it even possible to make a full stop at 1 second, and then return back to full speed in the next fraction of the second? 

Even Part 1 Naruto who is MUCH slower than Gai couldn't stop himself when Sakura interfered in his battle with Sasuke. But Gai with much higher speed can decrease his speed that much in 1 second and go back full right away!

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

MindlessJuubito doesn't even care about who is touching him to the point even Hashirama's clone binded him without reacting :
SHIT
So I guess, Base Hashirama's clone is faster than KCM Minato, even a Juubi Jin can't compare to his tremendous speed

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

Don't mind Obito.

I wonder from where did those fanboys got the impression that Gai slow down in those pages exactly?

Like were there any suffix, panels, or anything that even hint at Gai slowing down?


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> *Nonsens, the same applies to Tobirama if KCM Minato went full speed, Tobirama won't catch the ball before him because he already recognzed Minato's move speed*.
> Red Gai never loed down, that's a fanfic invented by Tobirama fans/Mianto haters.
> Yet even Gudo Dama speed is far superior to SM Madara speed.



What are you even talking about? 

Gaara's sand kept up with him, so yes he did slow down as Gaara's sand isn't as fast as 8G Gai. A fact Minato fanboys love to ignore.   Gaara's sand failed to catch Madara but now it can keep pace with full speed Gai?    Aight then bud.

Which proves what exactly? Oh wait, nothing.   Gudo Dama can travel faster than Madara can on foot, doesn't say anything about CQC which is where Madara would embarrass Minato and already did embarrass Tobirama. Lee can react to the Gudo Dama. 5G Gai can react to the Gudo Dama. What's next, they are faster than Tobirama too?    Delusional.



hbcaptain said:


> MindlessJuubito doesn't even care about who is touching him to the point even Hashirama's clone binded him without reacting :
> Sakura surviving a TSB stab
> So I guess, Base Hashirama's clone is faster than KCM Minato, even a Juubi Jin can't compare to his tremendous speed



Irrelevant. The feat isn't touching Obito. The feat is reacting to his speed. Did Hashirama's clone do that? No. Did Tobirama? Yes. You Minato fanwankers and supporters need to stop ignoring the real argument being presented to you in an attempt to shy away from the fact you have no fucking argument.

No one gives a damn that he touched Obito. The feat is that he REACTED TO OBITO WHO IS FAR FASTER THAN ANYONE MINATO HAS EVER REACTED TO ON PANEL. Lmao learn how to read kiddo. It'll serve you well in life.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Gaara's sand kept up with him, so yes he did slow down as Gaara's sand isn't as fast as 8G Gai. A fact Minato fanboys love to ignore.




No one is ignoring shit. You are trying to sound bright and think you are the only one who thought of this argument! 

But this argument came up in the manga, and Gaara said his sand is not fast enough, to which Minato replied not to worry because HE is there 




"That's where I come in" on other words to solve the speed problem.


But even if we go with your logic, why doesn't Gaara's sand feat prove that it is THAT fast as well? 

Or does those feats count whenever you like it, and they don't when you don't feel like it?

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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> First you are wrong, in S/T battle the combos and the capacity to coordinate with FTG is also one of the most important things and Minato surpasses Tobirama here.


Nope, all of these combos and capacity are Rubbish if your reactions are slower

Whoever reacts first, is the one who executes his jutsu first, that's how FTG operates.
This has been showed countless times.
Minato had plenty of "combos and FTG capacities" yet he gets utterly clowned by a single swing of Madaras Staff, do you know why that is?
It's becuse Madara reacted well before minato did and thus attacked



> *You are wrong Minato showed better feats than Tobirama, automatically  only looked impressive because Juubito was marked (and even so he said Juubito can isntantly kill him if he continue teleporting behind him) while Minato attempted a direct non-FTG CQC and only lost one arm while he was confused.*



Juubito was marked because Tobirama was actually capable of doing that. That's final.
Whatever Tobirama did after that was solely because he was actually capable of landing a mark on him.
KCM minato wasn't since he got utterly clowned

And lol what, KCM minato confused? That's what he lost an arm? 

What in the hell is this, he lost an arm  because his reactions were piss poor in front of juubito,
Tobirmas landed a mark before his body was blown
Minato could only dodge but still ended up losing his arm

Therefore the logical conclusion is minato being reflexively inferior



> And talking about feats, Base Minato was much more impressive than all what Tobirama did, as the manga showed in the gif above.


The gif has Rock Lee aiming the kunai at that position

So if you truly take that ridiculous Gif to heart than you're saying that:
-- 6G  Rock Lee is faster than 8G guy which is nonsense
-- minato and gaaras sand is faster than 8g guy who is much faster than Jin Madara

But we have a *manga fact* that gaaras sand was too slow for even Madaras TSB let alone Madaras actual speed, let alone 8G guy, let alone actually keeping up with 8G guy

Madara was much faster than SM minato, yet you're saying that *base minato is Fkn faster than 8G guy*
This is just the direct manga evidence that corresponds to minato *never* being faster than guy

And till then his best feat will and always will be just reacting to V2 Ay

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

@KeyofMiracles

Since when reacting to Mindless Juubito is impressive, or you forgot about his other feats. such as KCM Naruto grabing Minato before he got blitzed (more impressive than Tobirama who lost hlaf of his body), or Old Hiruzen partially reacting to him. 

Ah I guess it doesn't count

Just as a reminder, KCM Naruto only barely raected to V2 Ei, so I guess it's simple to think that mindless Juubito < V2 Ei in speed. 

But it seems again, it doesn't count as a feat.

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> [-retarded drivel-



It became impressive the moment Obito was revealed to be the fastest character in the Manga at that time, or is he slow now because you want your lord and savior Minato to be superior?  What a fucking joke.

-Naruto didn't grab shit before he got blitzed by OBITO. He grabbed Minato before he got hit by the Gudo Dama. Obito is not the *Gudo Dama*. The Gudo Dama does not extend faster than Obito can move nor does it extend as fast, and if you want to prove that it does then get the fucking feats 

-Hiruzen didn't react to Obito. He reacted to the *Gudo Dama* and still got hit. 

 You Minato fanboys should try reading the Manga sometime. KCM Naruto didn't barely react to V2 Ay. KCM Naruto easily reacted to V2 Ay and then outsped and dodged his punch all with a look of confidence on his face. Ay rushed Minato and Minato had a look of surprise on his face. Ay's fist was centimeters from his nose. That's not a clean reaction. [/user]

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

KCM Naruto got blitzed by Obito when Obito actually physically rushed him so that already makes Tobirama much faster than him in terms of reaction speed.

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## ARGUS (Aug 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> So, let me see.
> 
> > A goes at full speed at Minato
> > Minato dodges
> ...


Yeah no.
1. Guy is heading towards madara not minato 
2. Rock Lee intercepts the TSBs movement by tossing the kunai, not minato 
3. Minato reacts to TSB not guy since he intercepts the TSB, not guy 

TSB are around the same speed as V2 Ay thus minatos best feat is still reacting to V2 Ay or TSB 



> What is the different between the Gedu-Dama, A, And Gai?
> All of them went towards him at full speed.


8G Guy >>>>>>>> V2 Ay >= TSB in speed 



> Power is irrelevant if they don't hit the opponent. Which means, Kin/Gin MUST have been able to hit Tobirama in order to kill him.
> Where was his speed and reaction back then? Or he forgot to use them?


Let's just conveniently forget that there were 18 more elite ninjas there 

Not to mention that minato is not kin/gin 
Why are you mentioning something completely irrelevant when *nothing* you have said counters the *manga fact* that Tobirma reacted and marked Juubito 

Nor does anything show minato being more reflexive than Tobirama 
Certainly not the garbage you're posting 




> Stop putting pathetic excuses and trying to twist the argument to fit your agenda. That's very pathetic.
> 
> Yes, Lee does get the feat to be able to throw the Kunai that fast and far. HOWEVER, his threw has NOTHING to do with the teleportation *itself*. Or are you going to say that Lee's throwing the Kunai made Minato's teleportation and reaction faster or something?


 
Is understanding S/T ninjutsu really that hard for the scrubs in these forums? 

Kunai throw had to do with placement and precision.
Teleportation is garbage if you can't even execute it properly 
Not responding to the other nonsense
I have already addressed that 20 times in this thread already 



> And you now lying? How low can you sink?
> Where did I say it's his feat against A that is better? Cuz I am pretty sure I am talking about Gai all this time.


His feat against guy can't be included Bcz he never reacted to guy 
KCM minato was nearly blitzed by Juubito whose far slower than guy 
Yet you're spouting nonsense that base minato can react to 8G guy when also SM minato was blitzed by the slower Jin Madara 

So yeah we take his next best feat which is reacting to Ay which is nowhere near what Tobirmaa did 




> No, but rather how far you sunk with your dishonesty and hypocrisy.
> You have absolutely no credibility.


If there's anyone that has no credibility it'll be you 
Especially when it comes to minato 



> You even started to flat out lie in order to serve your agenda. This is an example
> 
> 
> You really should be ashamed of yourself.


No lying there
If you think that minato is more reflexive then that is exactly what you're implying 



> > All fights are "Mid difficult"
> > X wins against 2 characters mid difficult
> > Through in a 100 fighter in addition to those 2,  and the fight will still be "Mid difficult"
> 
> ...


Yeah Tobirama mid diffs base minato 
 



> Little no content? You never replied to any comparesion.
> And you flat out deny feats, and you even LIE in order to prove a point like you just did.


Lol this guy talks about feats 
Then brings out an unseen fight against a completely different opponent to justify minatos superiority 
Lol 
But We have already seen KCM minato and Tobirmaa face the same opponent 
One of them marked him and reacted to him 
The other got nearly blitzed and lost his arm 

And then yu have the nerve to say that I'm denying feats

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> KCM Naruto got blitzed by Obito when Obito actually physically rushed him so that already makes Tobirama much faster than him in terms of reaction speed.


No Tobirama was blitzed by the same black thing, so Tobirama got grabbed (since he was impressed by Base Minato's reactions) and started reacting before the black things started to move.

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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> No Tobirama was blitzed by the same black thing, so Tobirama got grabbed (since he was impressed by Base Minato's reactions) and started reacting before the black things started to move.



   Fuck. Obito rushed him and smacked him with the Gudo Dama. Obito rushed him. Obito. RUSHED. HIM. Obito didn't rush Naruto or Hiruzen and attack. Obito attacke dthem with the Gudo Dama.

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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Fuck. Obito rushed him and smacked him with the Gudo Dama. Obito rushed him. Obito. RUSHED. HIM. Obito didn't rush Naruto or Hiruzen and attack. Obito attacke dthem with the Gudo Dama.


Nah he rushed to them unlike you think he didn't move. Yet Tobirama only reacted after he got grabbed otherwise he would teleport before he loses half of his corps lol.
But if you think Tobirama is an idiot then I'm with you.

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## Trojan (Aug 18, 2016)

> [="ARGUS, post: 55958656, member: 240135"]Yeah no.
> 1. Guy is heading towards madara not minato


Not sure if serious, or stupid. 

And where was Minato at exactly? Wasn't he in the middle of Gai's path?



> 2. Rock Lee intercepts the TSBs movement by tossing the kunai, not minato



And? 



> 3. Minato reacts to TSB not guy since he intercepts the TSB, not guy




Minato was IN THE MIDDLE OF BOTH OF THEM.

God gave you a brain? Try to use more often. Believe me, you will like it...


> TSB are around the same speed as V2 Ay thus minatos best feat is still reacting to V2 Ay or TSB


Just curious, how did you Measure their speed exactly? Can you give us the pages were it was stated that they are at the same speed?

Or did you pull that out of your ass as usual? 



> 8G Guy >>>>>>>> V2 Ay >= TSB in speed



Good, and Minato teleported in and out before Gai could even reach him. So, it does not matter either way.



> Let's just conveniently forget that there were 18 more elite ninjas there


Fodders.



> Not to mention that minato is not kin/gin
> Why are you mentioning something completely irrelevant when *nothing* you have said counters the *manga fact* that Tobirma reacted and marked Juubito


I did not deny shit.

I do admit that Tobirama got shat on by Retard form Obito, but did indeed tag him.
Just like I do admit that Minato teleported out of 8th Gates Gai.

I am not using your selective and bias reading. That's all.



> Nor does anything show minato being more reflexive than Tobirama
> Certainly not the garbage you're posting



No, your posts are garbage and their only place is the cesspool.

You are a selective reader who takes things to fit his own agenda while ignoring other things knowingly to show your dishonesty and lack of credibility.

You have been given the feat TENS of times, but you are too arrogant to admit that you are wrong.




> Is understanding S/T ninjutsu really that hard for the scrubs in these forums?
> 
> Kunai throw had to do with placement and precision.
> Teleportation is garbage if you can't even execute it properly
> ...



Do you really lack reading comprehension THAT much? 

No one is talking about the placement and anything of that sort. Stop being Dense, wtf, seriously? 

We are talking about the fact that Minato teleported IN & OUT before Gai could even reach him. Understood?
Or do I have to repeat this again?




> His feat against guy can't be included Bcz he never reacted to guy


I am  starting to doubt your mental capacity. 



Look it over, and over again until you get it. I will pray to God for you to replace your brain with a fresh one.



> KCM minato was nearly blitzed by Juubito whose far slower than guy
> Yet you're spouting nonsense that base minato can react to 8G guy when also SM minato was blitzed by the slower Jin Madara


And this shows, yet again, that you are a hypocrite and dishonest.
Tobirama got his ass kicked by Kinkaku, he got his ass handed to him by Asspulldara

Is Kinkaku or Madara (Pre Juubi power up) are faster than JJ Obito? No? Then why are you spouting this nonsense that Tobirama can react to Obito?




> So yeah we take his next best feat which is reacting to Ay which is nowhere near what Tobirmaa did


His best feat is reacting to Gai, IN DESPITE OF YOU...

By your garbage, Tobirama feat does not make sense, so yeah, we take his best feat which is getting fodderstompped by Kinkaku.



> If there's anyone that has no credibility it'll be you
> Especially when it comes to minato



No, you lack any sort of honestly, and you keep using double standard shamelessly, and yet you still have the nerves to talk? 

I even give you examples that are IDENTICAL to the nonsense you say, but you try your hardest to ignore them in order to not come out as the dishonest of a person that you are!

If not, then I DARE YOU, to claim that Tobirama couldn't do shit to RT Madara, and Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Therefore, his "Feat" of getting torn apart by Retard form Obito does not count.




> No lying there
> If you think that minato is more reflexive then that is exactly what you're implying


Unless you are mentally-challenged, you will see that I don't agree with your garbage.


I DO count his ligetement feat of reacting to Gai, because THAT's WHAT HAPPENED. Get over it.





> Lol this guy talks about feats
> Then brings out an unseen fight against a completely different opponent to justify minatos superiority
> Lol


We have seen them against same oppponents (with Minato facing a stronger version)
and we have seen them (Kinda) against different opponents. You are a dishonest person, and that's why
you keep saying the same garbage everytime.


> But We have already seen KCM minato and Tobirmaa face the same opponent
> One of them marked him and reacted to him
> The other got nearly blitzed and lost his arm


Again, you are a hypocrite.

We have seen them against the same person BUT WITH DIFFERENT POWER.

You are being extremely retarded.


It's like saying If, for example,

Yogito reacted and hit KCM Naruto and got destroyed in half

Is a better feat than Han dodging BM Naruto with less damage.

You are comparing appls and oranges.




> And then yu have the nerve to say that I'm denying feats



No, I have the nerves to the stupidity stupidty that you are using. Seriously, how old are you?
Have you ever got ANY sort of education? Like AT ALL?

Allow me to treat you as a pre-schooler...


Tobirama has 5 oranges.
Minato has 10 Oranges.

We want to compare them to Obito.

Now, Obito has 5 Oranges in the first time, and we compare it to Tobirama.

They will be equal.

Now, Obito went to the market, and he bought 20 oranges (So now he has 25)

Now we compare THIS Obito to Minato.

Obito will have more.

But does that mean Minato's 10 oranges is less than Tobirama's 5?
Since Obito was equal to Tobirama, and then he has much more than Minato?

No, because we compared them to TWO DIFFERENT *quantities*.


If even this does not help you, then you are completely hopeless.

And as the poetry say...

For every disease there is a cure, except foolishness, Exhausting he who tries to cure it...

I rest my case...
By this rate I will lose too many brain cells...

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Nah he rushed to them unlike you think he didn't move. Yet Tobirama only reacted after he got grabbed otherwise he would teleport before he loses half of his corps lol.
> But if you think Tobirama is an idiot then I'm with you.



Jesus you are fucking dense.

SHIT

-Obito SHUNSHIN'd at them. FACT.
-Tobirama tagged him *BEFORE *he was hit. FACT. The only arm of Tobirama's that was close enough to Obito's right side (where the tag is located) was the arm on the side that Obito ripped off. Tobirama couldn't have tagged Obito after he got his body ripped apart as the hand he used to tag him was also ripped apart.
-Why and how the fuck would Tobirama teleport? Obito's attack allowed them to bind him and then use Gojo on him. If Tobirama teleported then they achieve nothing at all. Not to mention Tobirama had no markings placed on that battlefield so he'd have no way to teleport away from Obito's attack even if that was his goal.

SHIT
Obito rushes Sasuke and Naruto, and they DON'T REACT. End of fucking story when it comes to whether or not KCM Naruto is faster than Tobirama.

SHIT
SHIT

As these panels show the Gudo Dama's extending speed is what Naruto outsped. Obito didn't move after grabbing them. 

Obito flies at Hiruzen. The second to last panel blatantly SHOWS THE GUDO DAMA EXTENDING.

SHIT

SHIT

Hiruzen is hit. Hiruzen never reacted to Obito's speed he reacted to the extension of the Gudo Dama and still got hit. That puts him far below Naruto who is below Tobirama.    How hard is it to read the Manga kiddo? Jesus Christ almighty you are dumb.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## hbcaptain (Aug 18, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Jesus you are fucking dense.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...


You are a great hypocrite if not the greatest of all, I ask you to show me the panel when Tobirama was tagging Juubito before he got grabbed (not the end of the action as you show in the pictures).
If you understand english then you will know that you can't all what Kishi showed is :
1)retard Obito at 10/15m from the fossils.
2)the fossils already blitzed.

If we assume that Tobirama tagged Juubito before he got blitzed, then he is really stupid since he can easily teleport away before getting violated. But all what we have seen is Tobiramaa getting violated
C/C: he could barely react to GudoDama even after he got grabbed, and that's why he lost half of his corps. 

But unfortunatly it seems you are so stupid you can't evn understand this

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Minato *never *reacted to 8G guy
> Even Jin Madara was struggling against his speed. And we have already seen him treat minato like dirt,
> Lol minato struggled against V2 Ay yet now he's reacting to someone 3
> Tiers above his speed
> ...



But still has to do with minato since he could use hirashin twice

So he could still take TSB away before it could take effect

One can claim gai slowed down but got no idea how he does that mid air

New manga evidence > old 

When then do we ignore minato most recent feat was using hirashin twice 

Why do we then use older feats to discredit that ?

Bias much ?


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## KeyofMiracles (Aug 18, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> You are a great hypocrite if not the greatest of all, I ask you to show me the panel when Tobirama was tagging Juubito before he got grabbed (not the end of the action as you show in the pictures).
> If you understand english then you will know that you can't all what Kishi showed is :
> 1)retard Obito at 10/15m from the fossils.
> 2)the fossils already blitzed.
> ...



Lmao stop being a retard and start using logic. Not to mention you didn't even ask shit, and if you did maybe you should stop typing like you are a first grader and start typing coherently. Ask and you shall receive you disgusting little fanboy. Tobirama said the LAST TIME HE TOUCHED OBITO HE PUT A MARKING ON HIM.

Sakura surviving a TSB stab

The only time he came in contact with Obito before Chapter 641 was when Obito blitzed him. End of story. It wasn't after the blitz because we can see all of Tobirama's actions and none of them were him tagging Obito. Not to mention Hashirama's wood was blocking the area where Tobirama was shown to tag him. Meaning it was before Gojo. The bold doesn't even make sense. He wasn't attacked and then grabbed. Obito dashed at him and ripped apart half his body using the Gudo Dama as a melee weapon. Lmao The Gudo Dama didn't extend like they did against Naruto and Hiruzen and Sasuke so why the fuck are you talking about him being unable to react to the Gudo Dama? Why would he teleport away when his goal was to land an attack on Obito? How would he teleport away when he has no markings on the field? Why did you ignore half my post?

Oh wait, because you can't counter it.  

 Minato fans are truly scum.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Saru (Aug 18, 2016)

Aaaaand... We're done.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 2


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