# kurenai vs genin neji (read Op)



## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

kurenai isnt allowed use of any jutus and must beat neji in CQC. She has access to a kunai and explosive tags like any ninja would 

distance: 10m
knowledge: full knowledge
mind set: kill the enemy 

i included poll because i like to prove my points. If most of NF agree on something then makes sense to think i am right if the majority agree with me

people rank isnt everything, the fact that rock lee or neji were genin at the start doesnt make kurenai any better than them at taijutsu since she doesnt specialize in it at all. 

lets see what people think.


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Does trolls = Roflstomp?


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

yes it does. 
please explain how kurenai trolls. Since when was she better at neji at hand to hand combat??
please note neji can touch her once in the chest and end the match. She cant punch him and knock him out

if you believe she trolls so much would you say she trolls jounin neji if neji isnt allowed to do anything he has shown in part 2??


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

According to one filler series you can't make jounin with just high level genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

you just said according to filler?  seriously you relying on filler for your arguments???

i never said she just has high level genjutsu, she is also good at ninjutsu and not terrible at taijutsu. She is probably good at infiltration etc 

her being jounin doesnt suddenly make her better than neji at the only thing he trains and is good at

even DB stats put neji taijutsu above hers, which means neji CQC skills are better. You add jukken to that and she gets trolled if she comes close. 

being a chunnin doesnt mean you cant beat a jounin in combat. That assumption is simply silly. 

current chouji is a chunin, that wont stop him from trolling anko now would it? The fact is being a genin doesnt mean what you excel at is obviously inferior to the jounin. it just means the jounin is an all round better ninja. Being well rounded is a good requirement for being a jounin

C is a jounin it doesnt mean he is suddenly better than rock lee at taijutsu now does it?


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

I am not using filler feats.  Despite the fact it is filler, it is a good assumption.
A shinobi that only masters genjusu is a sitting duck, and has no right to be a jounin.

Trained at for a few years as a kid.
I don't see a genin having superior abilities to any jonin under any circumstances.
The difference in rank is just too great.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 11, 2013)

Neji's taijutsu style is surely better than Kurenai's (presumably) generic taijutsu maneuvers, but I don't think he poses a threat to someone as intelligent and experienced as her. She has few taijutsu feats, but yet was capable of dodging and blocking surprise assaults from _Itachi_, and in succession no less. I have no doubt her reaction speed and close combat skills are at the least great enough to defend herself with. She also has a 4 in taijutsu, and likewise a 4 in speed. Neji has a 4 in speed (which is most likely based on reaction speed), and a 4.5 on taijutsu, so he's _just_ ahead of her that regard.

Still, even with superior taijutsu, to me it was very clear that in Part I Kishimoto made it clear how far above the rookies Konoha Jonin were. When Neji fought Hinata all the Jonin were capable of effortlessly _intercepting him_ despite the sizeable distance gap. Granted some may label that as just a ' dramatic interception ', but regardless of how its viewed or worded, its still clear that Kishimoto portrayed the Jonin - Kurenai included, as being above Neji. Personally, since we knew the starting point of the Jonin, the finishing point, and can estimate the rough time that they started to move at, I'd say its a legitimate feat on Kurenai's part.

Even if Kurenai can't kill Neji with taijutsu, I don't think he can kill her with it either. Its a match of attrition, and Kurenai is more than likely to win.​​


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> you just said according to filler?  seriously you relying on filler for your arguments???



While you rely on the databook 


Icegaze said:


> her being jounin doesnt suddenly make her better than neji at the only thing he trains and is good at




*Spoiler*: __ 








She was way faster than Neji, she was also able to fight the chuunins of the sound, guys that were way too fast for Genin Naruto, who defeated Neji.



Icegaze said:


> even DB stats put neji taijutsu above hers, which means neji CQC skills are better. You add jukken to that and she gets trolled if she comes close.



Using databook as a reliable source? 

Kakuzu, Kisame, Naruto and Gai have 5 in stamina. I guess that they the same amount of chakra 

Itachi, Gai, and Minato have 5 in speed, are they exactly as fast? 



Icegaze said:


> being a chunnin doesnt mean you cant beat a jounin in combat. That assumption is simply silly.



On the other hand the 12 genins of konoha having troubles with fodder chuunins and jounins of the sound village proves that they were not at the level of a real chuunin.



Icegaze said:


> current chouji is a chunin, that wont stop him from trolling anko now would it? The fact is being a genin doesnt mean what you excel at is obviously inferior to the jounin. it just means the jounin is an all round better ninja. Being well rounded is a good requirement for being a jounin



You are underestimating Anko. Anyway that case is not comparable. Chouji doesn't have the level of a chuunin anymore. Everyone saw Neji's level against Naruto and even the chuunins agreed that he had genin level. 



Icegaze said:


> C is a jounin it doesnt mean he is suddenly better than rock lee at taijutsu now does it?



Genin Lee was defeated by the sound genins. Would C lost against them?


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> even DB stats put neji taijutsu above hers, which means neji CQC skills are better. You add jukken to that and she gets trolled if she comes close.



According to the Databook

Neji
Speed = 3
Taijutsu = 3.5

Kurenai 
Speed = 4
Taijutsu = 4

However, I don't put much on those databooks.  They are nothing more than manga filler imo.
It also doesn't scale, which makes it completely worthless.


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

If you vote that neji wins this, then you should just facepalm yourself.


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## Dominus (Aug 11, 2013)

mysticjbyrd said:


> According to the Databook
> 
> Neji
> Speed = 3
> ...



Actually Neji's score at end of Part I in the 2nd Databook is 4.5 in taijutsu and 4 in speed.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Actually Neji's score at end of Part I in the 2nd Databook is 4.5 in taijutsu and 4 in speed.



And Naruto's one in stamina 5. Does that mean that he reached his maximum amount chakra while he had 12 years old? Didn't he improve in that stat in the whole second part of the manga?

The databooks aren't correct. It's simply that.


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Actually Neji's score at end of Part I in the 2nd Databook is 4.5 in taijutsu and 4 in speed.



The 1st databook is up to volume 13, which is Manga #115.
That covers the chunnin exams.

The 2nd book covers up to volume 27, which is up to Manga #244
That covers up to the failure to retrieve Sasuke.



So, I guess when are we talking about?
I wouldn't think there would be hardly any difference between these periods, but It is a huge jump in stats in a short time frame. 
These DB are crap.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Neji's taijutsu style is surely better than Kurenai's (presumably) generic taijutsu maneuvers, but I don't think he poses a threat to someone as intelligent and experienced as her. She has few taijutsu feats, but yet was capable of dodging and blocking surprise assaults from _Itachi_, and in succession no less. I have no doubt her reaction speed and close combat skills are at the least great enough to defend herself with. She also has a 4 in taijutsu, and likewise a 4 in speed. Neji has a 4 in speed (which is most likely based on reaction speed), and a 4.5 on taijutsu, so he's _just_ ahead of her that regard.
> 
> Still, even with superior taijutsu, to me it was very clear that in Part I Kishimoto made it clear how far above the rookies Konoha Jonin were. When Neji fought Hinata all the Jonin were capable of effortlessly _intercepting him_ despite the sizeable distance gap. Granted some may label that as just a ' dramatic interception ', but regardless of how its viewed or worded, its still clear that Kishimoto portrayed the Jonin - Kurenai included, as being above Neji. Personally, since we knew the starting point of the Jonin, the finishing point, and can estimate the rough time that they started to move at, I'd say its a legitimate feat on Kurenai's part.
> 
> Even if Kurenai can't kill Neji with taijutsu, I don't think he can kill her with it either. Its a match of attrition, and Kurenai is more than likely to win.​​



sorry you just said defend herself against the jukken?? you do realize if she puts her hand up to parry his jukken. neji would have just ripped the muscles in her arm right. 
Yes of course kurenai with everything she has far exceeds neji, it doesnt however mean she can beat him in CQC something she has no particular style in or doesnt excel in. 
Kurenai cannot KO punch neji, neji can tap kurenai and win. I dont see how this isnt obvious to anyone. 

people ill say this one more time, because asuma is a jounin for example doesnt suddenly mean he can punch harder than chouji or has better taijutsu than rock lee who only learns and trains in taijutsu. 

you all do realize that to be a jounin you need to be well rounded and that kurenai specialty is genjutsu right. So why exactly should she be better at taijutsu than neji who solely uses taijutsu ???

Do you believe that jounin neji will troll under the same situation. i.e cant use air palm or full body blow?? if so ill ask you why, because he hasnt been shown to be faster and hasnt done anything at all. All he got is rank. 

You seem reasonable so ill let you answer. to the rest, you currently talking to yourselves


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

How can Mei defend herself against the Juuken?
I guess Genin Neji was already Kage level


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> sorry you just said defend herself against the jukken?? you do realize if she puts her hand up to parry his jukken. neji would have just ripped the muscles in her arm right.
> Yes of course kurenai with everything she has far exceeds neji, it doesnt however mean she can beat him in CQC something she has no particular style in or doesnt excel in.
> Kurenai cannot KO punch neji, neji can tap kurenai and win. I dont see how this isnt obvious to anyone.
> 
> ...




If we are talking genin chouji, then yah Asuma could easily outpunch him.  I mean unless you think that loser chunnin sound ninja could have pushed Asuma back.  lol

If we are talking genin Lee, then yah Asuma could easily beat him with taijutsu.  That is his specialty too, so I am not sure why you even put this up.

Jounin have to be well rounded,  you said it yourself, and then you ramble on.  I don't understand...


Yah, jouin Neji would wipe the floor with her under these restrictions.
Rank signifies experience and skill.


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## -JT- (Aug 11, 2013)

Kurenai wins.

While I'm sure Neji would give her a fair bit of trouble with the restrictions stated, and technically he has better taijutsu feats than her, Kurenai is just more experienced and does have a few feats that help her.
As Godaime Tsunade said, she was able to evade and block blows from Itachi. Of course she wouldn't want to block the Gentle Fist, but she shows that she can evade quite handily.

She (along with the other jonin) was also able to stop Neji as he sprinted towards Hinata, closing a sizeable distance in mere seconds (even milliseconds). Although this may have been Shunshin, I can't remember.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> How can Mei defend herself against the Juuken?
> I guess Genin Neji was already Kage level



, putting you on my ignore list for excessive stupidity 
mei will beat genin neji if allowed access to her ninjutus, in which case neji would never ever get close. So no you moron neji wasnt kage level nor did i imply such.

@JT what feats show she can evade jukken quite handly ??? again having quicker foot speed doenst mean you have better reactions or can beat someone in taijutsu. I seem to be repeating myself at this point. So i give up 

Mods close at your discretion


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> , putting you on my ignore list for excessive stupidity
> mei will beat genin neji if allowed access to her ninjutus, in which case neji would never ever get close. So no you moron neji wasnt kage level nor did i imply such.
> 
> @JT what feats show she can evade jukken quite handly ??? again having quicker foot speed doenst mean you have better reactions or can beat someone in taijutsu. I seem to be repeating myself at this point. So i give up
> ...



Being faster generally means having greater reaction speed, as you have to react to your own movement. For example in Darui's case his reaction speed is above his movement speed as he can react and control to his gale jutsus.


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## Language of Life (Aug 11, 2013)

She both avoided and then blocked an attack from Itachi in rapid succession. This alone puts her reaction feats on level of which she could dodge Neji. She does not have to block anything, just dodge. Nor does she really have to immediately get close. Use weapons for a ranged attack, Neji blocks with Kaiten and when he finishes rotating she then shunshin's in and cuts his face open like she was trying to do to Itachi. She just has to do it without the use of genjutsu. 

It seemed pretty clear to me that Kishi portrayed the level of part 1 jounin to be out of reach of the genin with a few special exceptions. Neji is not one of those exceptions.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

popular opinion says am wrong 
so to all those who said kurenai wins and i argued with. Sorry

@Zuhaitz sorry you are right.  though i still cannot understand why you would think being generally faster means greater reaction speed. I am pretty sure in gaiden arc that was explained as not being necessarily true. rock lee is generally much faster than neji, however neji has better reactions hence why he can easily deal with rock lee despite the movement speed gap.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> sorry you just said defend herself against the jukken?? you do realize if she puts her hand up to parry his jukken. neji would have just ripped the muscles in her arm right.
> Yes of course kurenai with everything she has far exceeds neji, it doesnt however mean she can beat him in CQC something she has no particular style in or doesnt excel in.
> Kurenai cannot KO punch neji, neji can tap kurenai and win. I dont see how this isnt obvious to anyone.



To quote myself, I said that she was capable of blocking _and_ dodging surprise assaults from Itachi, and in succession. I also never said that she could KO punch Neji, just that she could prevent herself being hit or killed by dodging or parrying his blows 



> people ill say this one more time, because asuma is a jounin for example doesnt suddenly mean he can punch harder than chouji or has better taijutsu than rock lee who only learns and trains in taijutsu.
> 
> you all do realize that to be a jounin you need to be well rounded and that kurenai specialty is genjutsu right. So why exactly should she be better at taijutsu than neji who solely uses taijutsu ???



Kurenai has limited feats, rubbing her yet to be seen-taijutsu off as poor or average might be unfair, especially given how well she did in close range against Itachi. Plus, with a 4 in taijutsu/speed in the Databook, she's definitely skilled in that area. Neji may be better than her, but not to an extent that he could beat her with it.



> Do you believe that jounin neji will troll under the same situation. i.e cant use air palm or full body blow?? if so ill ask you why, because he hasnt been shown to be faster and hasnt done anything at all. All he got is rank.



Air Palm, Body Blow, Kaiten etc are all ninjutsu. His taijutsu is limited to the Jyuuken fighting style, which wouldn't work against her. I'm assuming this is supposed to be a fight limited to taijutsu, since this threads purpose was to try and disprove that Kurenai > Neji in taijutsu?



Zuhaitz said:


> And Naruto's one in stamina 5. Does that mean that he reached his maximum amount chakra while he had 12 years old? Didn't he improve in that stat in the whole second part of the manga?
> 
> The databooks aren't correct. It's simply that.



The manga tends to be just as inconsistent as the databook. The databook was also written by the author himself, so who are you to pick and choose what and what to believe? Given that there is no higher rank than 5 in the Databook, it doesn't mean that two characters both with 5's are equal in that respect, just that they've peaked in that individual stat. Naruto also has a bijuu inside of him, and he learned to control sizeable amounts of it by the end of Part I. Heck, in the first chapter of Part I Naruto created more Kage Bunshin than anyone has ever done throughout the entire manga._Of course_ he was deserving of a 5.​​


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

@Godaime tsuande yes this was merely to be a taijutsu fight 
And it seems most agree with you so i concede. kurenai for no actual reason other than portrayal beats neji in taijutsu 
so let me ask you Godaime tsunade, who wins in a taijutsu only match hashirama or gai. 
Please note the  portrayal and the gap in power between hashirama and gai is even more than the gap in power between kurenai and genin neji.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> @Godaime tsuande yes this was merely to be a taijutsu fight
> And it seems most agree with you so i concede. kurenai for no actual reason other than portrayal beats neji in taijutsu
> so let me ask you Godaime tsunade, who wins in a taijutsu only match hashirama or gai.
> Please note the  portrayal and the gap in power between hashirama and gai is even more than the gap in power between kurenai and genin neji.



This isn't really the place to discuss that match up, so I won't go into huge detail but, I would say Gai would win. Unlike Neji, Gai is arguably a famous shinobi in his own right, not a measly Genin. Hashirama is at the level he's at because of his outstanding ninjutsu and senjutsu, not taijutsu - like Gai.

In this match up, Kurenai is a Jonin (and thus portrayed as above Neji) because of not just her genjutsu, but of her wide range of skills. You only need to look at the databook to see that she has 4's or higher in almost every stat. Genjutsu may be her strongest and most dominant trait, but she became a Jonin for being well-rounded. Whereas, Neji is good at taijutsu and thats it, he's weak comparatively.

The power-level difference between Gai and Hashirama isn't _portrayed_ to be as dramatic as it is between Part I Neji and Kurenai. That is what separates the two examples you've given, imo.​


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> This isn't really the place to discuss that match up, so I won't go into huge detail but, I would say Gai would win. Unlike Neji, Gai is arguably a famous shinobi in his own right, not a measly Genin. Hashirama is at the level he's at because of his outstanding ninjutsu and senjutsu, not taijutsu - like Gai.
> 
> In this match up, Kurenai is a Jonin (and thus portrayed as above Neji) because of not just her genjutsu, but of her wide range of skills. You only need to look at the databook to see that she has 4's or higher in almost every stat. Genjutsu may be her strongest and most dominant trait, but she became a Jonin for being well-rounded. Whereas, Neji is good at taijutsu and thats it, he's weak comparatively.
> 
> The power-level difference between Gai and Hashirama isn't _portrayed_ to be as dramatic as it is between Part I Neji and Kurenai. That is what separates the two examples you've given, imo.​



can you honestly say that though cuz i believe most would agree that if hashirama was called jounin level gai would be a genin and not a chunin 
the gap between the 2 honestly is much worse, hence why i brought it up. granted its not the thread to discuss it but you do realize hashirama has tsunade level healing but with alot more chakra. Which means even if he didnt fight back he would still beat gai. 

gai said he would need the 8th gate to deflect 5 bijuudama from weaker bijuu, hashirama brushed off 12 from kyuubi. I mean gai has to outright kill himself to do less than half of what hashirama did. To say the level difference between the 2 isnt more dramatic is ridiculous. 

neji fighting style is famous though for being the best in konoha , and neji mastered it to a point which shocked the head of the clan. To say neji wasnt well established in taijutsu would be lying.  So again your statement goes back to bias and double standards. 

despite the fact that hashirama is so so far ahead of gai, somehow gai would win in a taijutsu match up. Yet kurenai who may be just as far beats neji in taijutsu?? despite the fact that neji has a much much more clear advantage over gai. 

neji can decide the match with a tap, however even if gai gets a clean punch to the chest it wont kill hashirama or win gai the match. 

you understand my point now? at least you can agree to your bias 

if hashirama is 10 out of 10. gai doesnt reach 4 on that same scale. This isnt even a slight exaggeration on my part


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## Mithos (Aug 11, 2013)

The Jounin were so fast with their Shunshin that the genin were not able to react back in Part 1. Kurenai also has a 4 in taijutsu so she's no slouch, and she was able to react to Itachi's charge and evade a slash to her throat despite just releasing herself from the genjutsu-reversal. 

She's on such a higher level that I just cannot see her losing.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

@matto sama, genin naruto in base wasnt able to react to neji blitz. neji ran past about 10 clones and hit the clone in the rear before the others could even move. Thats what i would have said, but as of now i agree with you. 
her jounin status surely puts her above neji in taijutsu


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## Veo (Aug 11, 2013)

I thought it was very clear back then that chuunin/genin were much weaker than jounin. Even considering this is a taijutsu only fight and that Kurenai has not shown much of her skills in that field, I assume she's strong and fast enough to defeat Neji with low difficult.


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## Dil (Aug 11, 2013)

Neji wins this with ease. One touch from him and Kurenai won't even be able to stand. She has absolutely no answer to Gentle Fist and Eight Trigrams. She throws her little kunais, Neji blocks it with Kaiten. She didn't block anything from Itachi, she got kicked in the water because she fell for Itachi's trick. She has absolutely no Taijutsu feats and its a big disrespect to Neji who specialises in one of the best Taijutsu there is to be beaten by someone like Kurenai. All she knows is Genjutsu.

Some people need to re-read Part 1 Neji fights, especially against Naruto and Kidomaru.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

@Dil am almost excited to say i agree with you. I do advise you read previous posts though everyone else seems to disagree completely.


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## Dil (Aug 11, 2013)

I have read them and Godaime Tsunade is wrong about Neji's techniques not being Taijutsu because they are Taijutsu, they are not Ninjutsu. And she is wrong about Kurenai handing herself with Itachi in a Taijutsu fight when all she did was duck, then got kicked in the water because that was part of the plan. That's all of her taijutsu feats right there, after that she didn't do anything and ended up being the one who needed protection.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

again i agree with you 100% glad i finally got someone who agrees with me. I got tired of being bullied here.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 11, 2013)

The databook says Neji's just as fast, but has better taijutsu. The argument for Kurenai will be "lol Jōnin" based on a flashy dynamic entry―the same sort that had Tobirama cover a huge distance before Minato could move a few inches―that shouldn't be considered legitimate in actual fights (_unless_ Tobirama blitzes Minato?)

The rank of Jōnin means nothing by itself. Asuma blitzed ten Jōnin levels and part one Shikamaru incapacitated ten Jōnin levels. Obito paneled a Jōnin back when he was still a loser among the Uchiha. Titles don't override sense, and certainly not when the author literally spells out their different proficiencies in the databook.​


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The databook says Neji's just as fast, but has better taijutsu. The argument for Kurenai will be "lol Jōnin" based on a flashy dynamic entry―the same sort that had Tobirama cover a huge distance before Minato could move a few inches―that shouldn't be considered legitimate in actual fights (_unless_ Tobirama blitzes Minato?)
> 
> The rank of Jōnin means nothing by itself. Asuma blitzed ten Jōnin levels and part one Shikamaru incapacitated ten Jōnin levels. Obito paneled a Jōnin back when he was still a loser among the Uchiha. Titles don't override sense, and certainly not when the author literally spells out their different proficiencies in the databook.​



where were u a few hours ago when i was getting bullied left right and center. I was the only one pointing this out VS people telling me she is a jounin therefore she wins. which makes no sense but when the majority keep telling you, you cant argue without looking foolish 

Got more people on my side now!!! 
i would say kurenai has no taijtusu feats, she ducked against 1 itachi kunai swipe then got kicked and couldnt even follow itachi movement after that 

neji has clear feats of blitzing genin naruto, someone at his level so to speak. So neji isnt slow by no means, then he can actually touch kurenai once and secure victory. yet she is supposed to win because she has access to kunai and hand to hand combat that cant knock out neji


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The databook says Neji's just as fast, but has better taijutsu. The argument for Kurenai will be "lol Jōnin" based on a flashy dynamic entry―the same sort that had Tobirama cover a huge distance before Minato could move a few inches―that shouldn't be considered legitimate in actual fights (_unless_ Tobirama blitzes Minato?)​




The difference is, Kurenai was very obviously on a whole different level to Neji, so to achieve such a feat was completely plausible. And seeing as how we saw her starting point, finishing point, and know roughly when she began to move, I don't see whats wrong with validating it as a feat.



Icegaze said:


> can you honestly say that though cuz i believe most would agree that if hashirama was called jounin level gai would be a genin and not a chunin



Yes, I can honestly say that. 



> the gap between the 2 honestly is much worse, hence why i brought it up. granted its not the thread to discuss it but you do realize hashirama has tsunade level healing but with alot more chakra. Which means even if he didnt fight back he would still beat gai.
> 
> gai said he would need the 8th gate to deflect 5 bijuudama from weaker bijuu, hashirama brushed off 12 from kyuubi. I mean gai has to outright kill himself to do less than half of what hashirama did. To say the level difference between the 2 isnt more dramatic is ridiculous.



Regeneration techniques aren't taijutsu though, they are ninjutsu. And yeh, the gap between them is huge, sure. I got your point the first time. I just mean I don't think it matters about the gap in that instance, because Gai has a portrayal great enough to make him the strongest taijutsu user in the series, and in the history of the manga (that we know of). Hashirama's hype thus means nothing when it comes down to it, because using taijutsu alone he could not beat Gai. On the other hand, Neji's hype as a great taijutsu user was relative to other shinobi on his level - he was not globally known as a strong taijutsu user like Gai. As such, someone like Kurenai who isn't globally known for having strong taijutsu, but who is competent nonetheless, could equal or trump him.



> neji fighting style is famous though for being the best in konoha , and neji mastered it to a point which shocked the head of the clan. To say neji wasnt well established in taijutsu would be lying.  So again your statement goes back to bias and double standards.



Th Hyuga fighting style was famous, sure. But Neji wasn't. Neji was impressive _comparatively_. Compare him to most of the other rookies and Genin at that time, and he looked very impressive. If you compare him to shinobi on another tier, he's far from being anything to write home about.



> despite the fact that hashirama is so so far ahead of gai, somehow gai would win in a taijutsu match up. Yet kurenai who may be just as far beats neji in taijutsu?? despite the fact that neji has a much much more clear advantage over gai.



Hashirama is so far ahead of Gai in everything _but_ taijutsu. Kurenai would beat Neji in taijutsu based on her feats - that has yet to be refuted.



> neji can decide the match with a tap, however even if gai gets a clean punch to the chest it wont kill hashirama or win gai the match.



But Part I Neji is much, _much_ slower than Gai. Landing a blow precise and powerful enough to OHKO someone would be incredibly difficult if he wasn't fighting someone on Part I Hinata's level. As for Hashirama, if he's going straight taijutsu then Gai has moves like Morning Peacock and Afternoon Tiger that can easily kill him.



> you understand my point now? at least you can agree to your bias



I always understood your point, I just didn't agree.



Dil said:


> I have read them and Godaime Tsunade is wrong about Neji's techniques not being Taijutsu because they are Taijutsu, they are not Ninjutsu. And she is wrong about Kurenai handing herself with Itachi in a Taijutsu fight when all she did was duck, then got kicked in the water because that was part of the plan. That's all of her taijutsu feats right there, after that she didn't do anything and ended up being the one who needed protection.



Kaiten, Air Palm, and Body Blow are all ninjutsu. So no, I'm not wrong. And all I said was that she did remarkably well against Itachi in close range given how much more powerful he is than her. I implied nothing of her taking Itachi on in a brawl, or something similar. At any rate, Itachi is much, much faster than Part I Neji, and arguably more skilled in taijutsu as well. Blocking and evading his attacks in quick succession is more than enough to show how well she would far against the Hyuga.​


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## Frawstbite (Aug 11, 2013)

Neji wasn't surprised at Lee's raw speed without weights, a very decent speed. Neji's first genuine reaction was when Lee opened gates and knocked Gaara around a bit. Neji doesn't see Lee's non weighted speed as a threat, this was nothing new to team Gai in general. So first, how fast is Kurenai? Fast enough to get through Gaara's sand, and what is that based on? Lee's speed is one that Neji is seemingly not impressed with. He finally uses his byakugan to watch a speed he does not know. My personal deduction is that Kurenai would have to _at least be faster than weightless Lee_ (consistently fast) to completely defeat Neji.

Kurenai was a new jonin (age 26-27), so much so that she didn't even know Ibiki. This means she was at best (obviously) an entry level jonin at the time. _And that is all we have to go on_, since she is pretty much out of the series. What can I gather from this? That her taijutsu, which is not her area of expertise it _entry level jonin at best_, and that's being generous. While Neji's taijutsu, in my opinion was at least chuunin level at the time. The databook gives them the same speed, while giving neji higher taijutsu skill, and more stamina. The stats that Kurenai excel at (hand seals, genjutsu, ninjutsu) are negated entirely here. Stat wise, in this match, he has the edge. She only has one point over him in intelligence. This doesn't even consider what the byakugan grants him.

So, we don't have any great feats, (Itachi sent her back in mere moments) we don't have any decent hype. Finally she was a very low jonin with minimal experience at the time as well. She cannot use ninjutsu or genjutsu here and she's going up against someone with better hype, feats, and stats (where it counts in this particular match) as well.

She's not just going to overthrow Neji in raw taijutsu with any kind of simplicity, nothing suggests this.


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## Dil (Aug 11, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kaiten, Air Palm, and Body Blow are all ninjutsu. So no, I'm not wrong. And all I said was that she did remarkably well against Itachi in close range given how much more powerful he is than her. I implied nothing of her taking Itachi on in a brawl, or something similar. At any rate, Itachi is much, much faster than Part I Neji, and arguably more skilled in taijutsu as well. Blocking and evading his attacks in quick succession is more than enough to show how well she would far against the Hyuga.[/indent][/justify]



Oh really?

Databook 1 - Hakkeshou Kaiten:

*Spoiler*: __ 




KEKKEI GENKAI; Taijutsu: Hakkeshou Kaiten (Titanic Revolution* of the Eight Trigrams Palm)
User: Hyuuga Neji
Defensive; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

A taijutsu where one releases a large amount of chakra from their body's chakra openings to catch the blows from an enemy's attacks, while making one's body spin to repel them. A secret transmitted by oral tradition within the Hyuuga's Main House, though Hyuuga Neji came up with it own his own, despite him being from the Branch House. It stands in the same league as Gaara's Sand as an ultimate protection, and was even called "the other Absolute Defense". This is the high grade taijutsu that made Neji's prodigious talent known during the Chuunin exam.




Databook 1 - Hakke Rokujuuyonshou:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Databook Entry: Hakke Rokujuuyonshou


This is originally a Taijutsu that is passed down only in the Hyuuga main house. However, being a branch house member, Neji uses his own intuition and natural talents to master the secrets of this Taijutsu.

Using the Byakugan's 360 degrees vision and mapping this vision onto a "Divination Hexagram Formation". Then the user will launch a series of high speed combo onto opponent that lies within this formation. The attacks are aimed at 64 of the opponent's tenketsu, thus closing these chakra points and stopping the chakra flow of the opponent. The victim will not even have the strength to stand up. Therefore this is a deadly Taijutsu that is suitable to be pass down within the Hyuuga line.




Databook 3 - Hakke Kushou:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Eight Trigrams* Vacuum Palm (八卦空掌, Hakke Kuushou)
Taijutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
User: Hyuuga Neji

Push the air and shoot it at enemy
A secret Hyuuga super-fast palm attack!!

Taking aim at the enemy's vitals and releasing an ultrahigh-speed palm thrust!!




Who's wrong now? If you still disagree that it's not Taijutsu, you really must have it against Neji. 

She got kicked across the water, you can't call that doing remarkable well considering it was just a normal kick, that doesn't show remotely anything close to how she can handle a Hyuuga, especially Neji who can do this new jonin
new jonin
new jonin
Neji is a taijutsu specialist, have you not read his fights or you just skim across it to make Kurenai somehow better even though she absolutely has no Taijutsu feats.


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## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

All of them blindsided him. He wasn't concentrated on them in the slightest, nor could he predict that they would jump in.

That dynamic entry feat hardly proves that "she's on another level" or whatever the argument is. No more than a single Pain path mutilating Sage Jiraiya by a similar, blindside attack.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The databook says Neji's just as fast, but has better taijutsu. The argument for Kurenai will be "lol Jōnin" based on a flashy dynamic entry―the same sort that had Tobirama cover a huge distance before Minato could move a few inches―that shouldn't be considered legitimate in actual fights (_unless_ Tobirama blitzes Minato?)
> 
> The rank of Jōnin means nothing by itself. Asuma blitzed ten Jōnin levels and part one Shikamaru incapacitated ten Jōnin levels. Obito paneled a Jōnin back when he was still a loser among the Uchiha. Titles don't override sense, and certainly not when the author literally spells out their different proficiencies in the databook.​



Errorino mi amigo.

Asuma blitzed 9 chunin after he took out their one Jonin.  The point of drama in the chase scene with Shikamaru and co was that while they could handle a team of Chunin with proper tactics, they knew a Jonin was out of their reach, and would kill them.

That also works for Asuma, because Asuma was supposed to be on the high end of Jonin.  The Asuma level of Jonin.  Neji could probably take a Jonin without a name in Taijutsu, but not Kurenai, even if she's a woman.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> All of them blindsided him. He wasn't concentrated on them in the slightest, nor could he predict that they would jump in.
> 
> That dynamic entry feat hardly proves that "she's on another level" or whatever the argument is. No more than a single Pain path mutilating Sage Jiraiya by a similar, blindside attack.



It does if it fits the theme.  Though Kishi changes themes like he changes Sharingan powers.  Screw Kishi.

Anyway, if Itachi went to stab Neji, wouldn't he just stab Neji?


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## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Asuma blitzed 9 chunin after he took out their one Jonin.  The point of drama in the chase scene with Shikamaru and co was that while they could handle a team of Chunin with proper tactics, they knew a Jonin was out of their reach, and would kill them.



SRA Neji is way above Shikamaru, and SRA Neji is a good deal stronger than Base Naruto. He needed the Nine-Tails to compete, and 0-Tailed Naruto quickly jumps to Jounin level in combat. Haku can vouch for that.

Kurenai would defeat kid Neji through sheer Genjutsu ability easily. Taijutsu only? Not a chance.




> Neji could probably take a Jonin without a name in Taijutsu, but not Kurenai, even if she's a woman.



Kuernai: 

Speed - 4

Taijutsu - 4

Neji: 

Speed - 4

Taijutsu - 5


There is absolutely no way a Genjutsu specialist is taking a Hyuuga prodigy in his field of combat. Kishimoto supports that through their Databbok scores, and Neji has many more ways to attack her than she does him in a Taijutsu-only battle.



> It does if it fits the theme. Though Kishi changes themes like he changes Sharingan powers. Screw Kishi.
> 
> Anyway, if Itachi went to stab Neji, wouldn't he just stab Neji?



Whate theme though? What theme demonstrates _all_ Jounin are physically on another level than Neji?

If Itachi wanted to seriously stab Kurenai, I think he could accomplish that in around 10, maybe 15 seconds. If you recall, Kakashi stated he wasn't really trying.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2013)

In a year or two he'd beat her, but at that time she had too much experience and knowledge for her to just lose.  I don't think it'd be a stomp either way, and she could lose, because she's forced into her weak point vs his specialty, but she should at least win more times than not.  She even trained Hinata, and knows what Hyugas are all about, so she knows all about their style and such as well.



> SRA Neji is way above Shikamaru, and SRA Neji is a good deal stronger than Base Naruto. He needed the Nine-Tails to compete, and 0-Tailed Naruto quickly jumps to Jounin level in combat. Haku can vouch for that.



Shikamaru is average chunin in abilities that aren't intelligence and planning.  

Neji was easily Chunin level in the FoD, and by the end of part one, he was in the top tiers of chunin, approaching special Jonin in all things not planning and intelligence.

KN0 is not a Jonin.  He's Naruto level, but stronger and faster.  Wave Arc also isn't perfect, and doesn't fit very well with what happens later.  
For example, shunshin allowed Sasuke to keep up with warp speed of light Jonin killing Haku without sharingan, but not with weighted Lee with sharingan, who's weightless speed is tied with Haku's base speed.

Sasuke also taijutsu kicked those two infamous chunin before any of that.  However Sasuke couldn't properly kill genjutsu snorkel fodder in their first encounter in the FoD.  By Wave Arc rights, he should have one-shotted them.  

So I prefer not to take that sort of stuff as Winchester's Gospel.


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## EnergySage (Aug 12, 2013)

Don't come at me with "They blindsided him".....

His Byakugan is active. For those who haven't been keeping up in the manga, the Byakugan gives you 360 degree vision...he saw all of them coming, technically. He just couldn't react, because they were so much faster than him, that he didn't see them at all


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## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In a year or two he'd beat her, but at that time she had too much experience and knowledge for her to just lose.  I don't think it'd be a stomp either way, and she could lose, because she's forced into her weak point vs his specialty, but she should at least win more times than not.  She even trained Hinata, and knows what Hyugas are all about, so she knows all about their style and such as well.



What does Kurenai have over Rotation, the 8 Trigrams, or Gentle fist in general? Where did she display these excellent Taijutsu feats to win? Just because she's a Jounin?

Listen, Shikamaru was promoted to Chunin over Sasuke. Her rank doesn't even necessarily indicate that she's superior in _combat_ to those ranked lower. I think she'd defeat Preskip Neji with Genjutsu, but Taijutsu only, I don't by into that "Jounin > Chunin just cause" bull. 

This is the same reason I don't think Minato defeats Kurenai in a Genjutsu only match, even though the gap between Yondaime Hokage and Kurenai is infinitely larger than the gap between Neji & Kurenai. I also think Gai would beat Hashirama in a Taijutsu match.  




EnergySage said:


> Don't come at me with "They blindsided him".....
> 
> His Byakugan is active. For those who haven't been keeping up in the manga, the Byakugan gives you 360 degree vision...he saw all of them coming, technically. He just couldn't react, because they were so much faster than him, that he didn't see them at all



He was focused on Hinata, not the audience and who would intervene.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2013)

> What does Kurenai have over Rotation, the 8 Trigrams, or Gentle fist in general? Where did she display these excellent Taijutsu feats to win? Just because she's a Jounin?



Forgetting any genjutsu.  If Itachi wanted to run up and stab Neji could he?

I think he could.  He didn't do that to Kurenai though.  I think their whole fight was taking place on a higher level than anything we'd seen from the genin, and that was the point.  The Akatsuki didn't just beat up a bunch of children, they beat up the people teaching the children, who could quite handily defeat their students.


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## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

If he tried, yes. If he didn't try, no.

Itachi could run up and stab Kurenai if he tried. He's like 5 tiers higher. The gap between him and Kurenai is again bigger than the gap between Kurenai and Neji. Itachi get's matched up against the likes of Minato & Nagato often. Kurenai is like below Asuma.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2013)

How many tiers do you place Itachi above P1 Neji?

I happen to think in pure taijutsu, it would take him 2-3 moves to kill her, as it did in canon.  While it would take exactly one stab for him to kill P1 Neji, trying or not, since I don't think he even tried against Sasuke's chidori charge, and Sasuke was considered within the realm of Neji.

Using that scale, Kurenai can last a few moves against someone 5 tiers higher than her.  So she would have to try against Neji, but she would probably win.


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## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> How many tiers do you place Itachi above P1 Neji?



In general? The same, 5 or 6.



> I happen to think in pure taijutsu, it would take him 2-3 moves to kill her, as it did in canon.



He never seriously tried to kill her. He was holding back against them all, not even including the Mangekyou Sharingan.

I _guarantee_ you that Itachi could kill her in one maneuver if he so desired.



> While it would take exactly one stab for him to kill P1 Neji, trying or not.



Neji uses Rotation, and that stops Itachi's Kunai.



> Using that scale, Kurenai can last a few moves against someone 5 tiers higher than her.  So she would have to try against Neji, but she would probably win.



I'm not kidding. I think Kurenai would last 4 or 5 seconds against a serious Itachi.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 12, 2013)

Negi wins of course. better feetz


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## Jackashflash (Aug 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> SRA Neji is way above Shikamaru, and SRA Neji is a good deal stronger than Base Naruto. He needed the Nine-Tails to compete, and 0-Tailed Naruto quickly jumps to Jounin level in combat. Haku can vouch for that.
> 
> Kurenai would defeat kid Neji through sheer Genjutsu ability easily. Taijutsu only? Not a chance.
> 
> ...



Neji doesn't have those stats as a genin!

The last Databook I bought was for Fairy Tail.
I went camping and used it for toilet paper, so I didn't get completely screwed.  That is how worthless these Databooks are.


Feats and Story place Neji at Mid Chunin level.
Now could a Chunin defeat kurenai in taijutsu?  Maybe, but it would be close.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 12, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Shikamaru is average chunin in abilities that aren't intelligence and planning.
> 
> Neji was easily Chunin level in the FoD, and by the end of part one, he was in the top tiers of chunin, approaching special Jonin in all things not planning and intelligence.
> 
> ...



You are wrong.
To assume that naruto acquires a massive amount of chakra from the kyuubi, but that doesn't increase his rank is just silly.  

Where are you getting their speeds are equal?  Haku transferring between mirrors might be equally as fast, but not base!
Sasuke could follow Lee, but he couldn't match his speed.

So Saskue landed, a lucky blow on some fodder, and then beat the shit out of a Genin later.   
Sorry, but what doesn't follow?  Sasuke was a very high level Genin right from the start.  He touched Kakashi's bells, and could use elemental ninjutsu!  These aren't ordinary feats of people fresh out of the academy.  When chosen for the chunin exams, everyone is shocked that rookies are even participating.  
Besides, no one said lower ranked ninja can't touch higher ranked ninja.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> SRA Neji is way above Shikamaru, and SRA Neji is a good deal stronger than Base Naruto. He needed the Nine-Tails to compete, and 0-Tailed Naruto quickly jumps to Jounin level in combat. Haku can vouch for that.
> 
> Kurenai would defeat kid Neji through sheer Genjutsu ability easily. Taijutsu only? Not a chance





Keep using the databook as  a valid source, that doesn't show that your point makes no sense or anything 

Also LOL

So in your opinion:
Genin Neji was chuunin level
KN0 was high jounin level
Kimimaro is kage level
And then I guess that current Gaara is legendary Kage level
Muu or the 3rd Raikage would be super legendary ultra kage level
Madara was a super ultra duper legendary kage level
Hashirama even more legendary, etc.

Stop prostituting the levels.

Genin Neji was a genin. KN0 was a genin (in fact many chuunin saw him fight Neji and no one ever claimed him to be more than a powerful genin).
The sound 4 were chuunins
Kimimaro was a jounin
Asuma is the bottom of the elite Jounins
Gai or Kisame are  Kage candidate, not even Kage level but Kage candidate
Gaara, Raikage, ect are kage level
Tobirama, Muu, Itachi, 3rd raikage are legendary Kage level
Etc.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Am happy i got more people on my side now....was sick of hearing the double standard people tell me i was wrong. Though why are the polls not showing i got more people on my side now?
somehow hashirama looses to gai in taijutsu, yet kurenai beats neji in taijutsu. pleeeeease!!! thats double standard. 
kurenai has no valid speed feat  and dynamic entry doesnt count

gai blitz jiraiya and kicked him in the face with dynamic entry does that mean gai can run circles round him? 
i think not

funny how people forget naruto and sasuke are genin and can troll most kage. Chunin is more about passing a test than your actual skill level. *HENCE WHY THERE ARE CHUNIN EXAMS!!!* if you are a genin and you past the exam you become chunin, even if most chunin can still pawn you with ease. 
end of the day its all about a few tests which dont necessarily determine a persons battle skills

neji as a genin could pawn jounin byakugan users, jounin people. So think before you write.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Am happy i got more people on my side now....was sick of hearing the double standard people tell me i was wrong. Though why are the polls not showing i got more people on my side now?
> somehow hashirama looses to gai in taijutsu, yet kurenai beats neji in taijutsu. pleeeeease!!! thats double standard.
> kurenai has no valid speed feat  and dynamic entry doesnt count
> 
> ...



Current alive Neji stomps Kurenai in taijutsu.
Genin Neji doesn't.


Deal with it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Current alive Neji stomps Kurenai in taijutsu.
> Genin Neji doesn't.
> 
> 
> Deal with it.



your an idiot for showing me that. didnt i just say why arent the polls showing it even though more people are on my side now?? did u somehow fail to read that.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

and i agree with you. Wish more could vote tip the scales a little bit.

like someone said weightless lee speed didnt impress neji and he had no troubles keeping up. 
when lee when 5th gate kakashi needed his sharingan to see lee movement and its only then neji who could btw still follow lee movement was impressed. It is only at that speed that both gai and lee agreed could beat neji in CQC

now kurenai with far far less impressive speed is just supposed to beat him in CQC. Once when she is 5m away from him 64 palms pawns. Btw 64 palms hasnt exactly been avoided as of yet. Kidomaru who had no problem getting away from neji still got hit by 64 palms before he could do so much as take a step back. 

I have no doubt asuma could beat genin neji in taijutsu but kurenai who clearly doesnt focus on taijutsu beating neji is just wrong. 

Like i said kurenai a new jounin being better than neji at what he specializes in is like Ei being better at genjutsu than kurenai simply because Ei is considered at least 3 tiers above her.

note: to those who say kidomaru is chunin level, what level is jirobo then cuz chapter 193 clearly states kidomaru is on an entirely different level. Also look at his abilities, are those the abilities of a chunin?? He has a technique to block chakra, webs that can be cut by normal means etc. 

I think people downplay some characters simply because they were beat by genin or fought against genin. Nothing i mean nothing at all points to the fact that neji cant handle kurenai speed with relative ease. 

No one in their right mind can say kurenai is faster than weightless genin lee. Or even anywhere close to gated lee speed. if neji can handle weightless rock lee with little effort no doubt he murders kurenai. 

The jounin overall are at an entirely different level, however it doesnt make them better at specific things. i would be like saying gai was better at ninjutsu than sasuke in part 1. No doubt gai has ninjutus but they are all supplementary


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> your an idiot for showing me that. didnt i just say why arent the polls showing it even though more people are on my side now?? did u somehow fail to read that.



No, you haven't. You have only cry that despite 2 more poster have said to agree with you, there are 13 that disagree.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, you haven't. You have only cry that despite 2 more poster have said to agree with you, there are 13 that disagree.



hence why i said you are an idiot read my posts i clearly said i agree 3 posts ago. 
then i got some backing and decided to argue again, however i did agree cuz its silly if everyone else on your thread says your wrong. 

So i do agree with majority, kurenai jounin status helps her beat neji in taijutsu 
Ei kage status helps him be better at genjutsu than kurenai ...

thats the sum total of people argument here, cant fault flawless logic 


*My question to every poster who read this is now: 

jounin neji vs kurenai same conditions who wins??
if you say jounin neji ill  cuz what on earth has jounin neji done, that somehow means he can beat kurenai?? How has he changed if he isnt allowed to use anything he didnt use in part 1? is it speed?? cuz his speed hasnt improve all that much. So what is it?*

*lets not forget ebisu is a jounin who got kicked once by hell path and got knocked out. The same path that genin and genin level konohamaru beat. So if rank were everything what happened to ebisu?? isnt he a jounin??*


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## Olympian (Aug 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> All of them blindsided him. He wasn't concentrated on them in the slightest, nor could he predict that they would jump in



Why would he be aware of them matter at all? The argument isn`t about whether he could defend himself or not. He was hell bent in killing Hinata who was just standing in front of him and got blindsided (i.e by people clearly further away). He wasn`t holding back, thus in an argument about speed..he got turtled badly.  Simple as that.

The excuse itself is poorly used anyhow, the Referee told him to stop before any of them made a move, Neji knew teachers were there. He simply chose not to give a shit.


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## Baroxio (Aug 12, 2013)

Please, oh please don't use Dramatic Entry "Interception" feats in a serious argument. They are for dramatic effect only.

Otherwise, we have Part 1 Naruto Speed-blitzing Kabuto, and Sasuke Speed-blitzing Haku who goes on to Speed-blitz Kakashi and whatnot.

Let's not get started down on that road. 

Vote NO to Dramatic Entry Interception feats.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

I vote no to it 
Certainly . They are all using an invalid feat to say she wins 
When a persons foot speed doesn't even have much baring on how the fair in CQC


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Kurenai used Shunshin to intercept Neji when he wasn't paying any attention to her and was "seeing red" as the expression goes. A Neji who's speed and taijutsu improved after that point by the time of the second databook. Going by that, they are equals in speed and Neji has better taijutsu, and he has the Byakugan to enhance his efficacy in that regard, so yes, in a close quarters battle, Neji would win. 

In an actual fight, Kurenai would win because Neji at that point wouldn't have the skill to counter a DB 5 in genjutsu. His chakra control and Byakugan would be of great help, but I don't think he would break her illusion in time to avoid getting shanked with a kunai.


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## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Keep using the databook as  a valid source, that doesn't show that your point makes no sense or anything



The author of the Databook is the author of the Manga, making it canon.  

Disregarding it for unknown reasons makes no sense, imo. 





> S
> Kimimaro is kage level
> And then I guess that current Gaara is legendary Kage level
> Muu or the 3rd Raikage would be super legendary ultra kage level
> ...



The Kage tier is huge. The difference between Mei & Hashirama is astonishing. 



> Genin Neji was a genin. KN0 was a genin (in fact many chuunin saw him fight Neji and no one ever claimed him to be more than a powerful genin).
> The sound 4 were chuunins
> Kimimaro was a jounin
> Asuma is the bottom of the elite Jounins
> ...



Chapter 1 Naruto shat on a Chunin level fighter, Mizuki. Reibi VotE Naruto is _far_ beyond that level, so I don't think it'd be unfair to say he was as capable as a Jounin in combat. Maybe not legendary Jounin like Kakashi or Gai, but Genma? Raido? Ebisu? I don't think these guys could so casually punch out Haku. You know, the guy that Zabuza held higher than himself? 

The Sound 4 were not Chunin. "Chunin" is the level of those Demon Brothers that Sasuke outplayed just as the Wave Arc got going. 4 Chunin would not be capable of defeating two Hokage-guarding Jounin without injury. I already went over Kimimaro's placement. 

Gai is easily Kage level with the 8 Gates technique. That's enough speed, strength, and power to defeat most Kage. Kisame has defeated Bee, whom is stronger than his Raikage brother. ABC logic can be apllied when discussing general levels, and I think that shows Kisame's solid placement as a Kage level Shinobi.

The rest of those Shinobi are at varying levels in the "Kage" class. Like I said, the tier is incredibly vast, to the point where Shinobi like Yagura & Shinobi like Hashirama share the same title.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The author of the Databook is the author of the Manga, making it canon.
> 
> Disregarding it for unknown reasons makes no sense, imo.



The manga debunks the databook 

The databook says that Hidan and Kisame have the same amount of chakra, the manga stated that Kisame was the Akatsuki with most chakra, for example.



Rocky said:


> The Kage tier is huge. The difference between Mei & Hashirama is astonishing.



Hashirama is beyond Kage level 



Rocky said:


> Chapter 1 Naruto shat on a Chunin level fighter, Mizuki. Reibi VotE Naruto is _far_ beyond that level, so I don't think it'd be unfair to say he was as capable as a Jounin in combat. Maybe not legendary Jounin like Kakashi or Gai, but Genma? Raido? Ebisu? I don't think these guys could so casually punch out Haku. You know, the guy that Zabuza held higher than himself?
> 
> The Sound 4 were not Chunin. "Chunin" is the level of those Demon Brothers that Sasuke outplayed just as the Wave Arc got going. 4 Chunin would not be capable of defeating two Hokage-guarding Jounin without injury. I already went over Kimimaro's placement.
> 
> ...




In fact chapter 1 Naruto was low Kage level. Kage level is that huge.


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## Rocky (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> The manga debunks the databook
> 
> The databook says that Hidan and Kisame have the same amount of chakra, the manga stated that Kisame was the Akatsuki with most chakra, for example.



The Databook gives Hidan & Kisame maximum proficiency in Stamina in comparison to other Shinobi. Not all 5's are the same. Think of them more as tiers. 



> Hashirama is beyond Kage level



Last time I checked, Hashirama was not the "First Beyond Hokage."




> In fact chapter 1 Naruto was low Kage level. Kage level is that huge.



Eh I would cap Part 1 Naruto at Elite Jounin level combat skills, and that's generous. Gamabunta helps, and Ichibi Naruto has the speed of a Jounin and strength beyond them. Plus the defensive Chakra cloak & regeneration.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The Databook gives Hidan & Kisame maximum proficiency in Stamina in comparison to other Shinobi. Not all 5's are the same. Think of them more as tiers.



If the numbers in the databook are not absolute and they must be interpreted, then the databook becomes a failed source. Why should I believe that your interpretation of what those numbers are is the correct one and not the one I have?



Rocky said:


> Last time I checked, Hashirama was not the "First Beyond Hokage."



My bad, he is the God of Shinobi 



Rocky said:


> Eh I would cap Part 1 Naruto at Elite Jounin level combat skills, and that's generous. Gamabunta helps, and Ichibi Naruto has the speed of a Jounin and strength beyond them. Plus the defensive Chakra cloak & regeneration.



No, the level of Kage varies from Chap 2 Konohamaro, who was Kage level, to Juubito who just on the Kage level. Because why the F no?


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## Rocky (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> If the numbers in the databook are not absolute and they must be interpreted, then the databook becomes a failed source.



Please try to make sense.

The Manga must be interpreted as well. That's why we do this "Battledome" thing. If we all held the same interpretation, there would be nothing to debate. 

Besides, the numbers in the Databook are absolute. They state that Hidan & Kisame have maximum proficiency in stamina, which isn't wrong. The Manga though, which is also canon, shows us that Kisame has more.



> My bad, he is the God of Shinobi



And the first Hokage.



> No, the level of Kage varies from Chap 2 Konohamaro, who was Kage level, to Juubito who
> just on the Kage level. Because why the F no?



Only current Konahamru is Kage level, because he defeated a Pain body.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Please try to make sense.
> 
> The Manga must be interpreted as well.



Not everything in the manga must be interpreted. If a character defeat another there's little to interpret.



Rocky said:


> That's why we do this "Battledome" thing. If we all held the same interpretation, there would be nothing to debate.



And as each has their own interpretation the databook becomes meaningless in the debate.



Rocky said:


> Besides, the numbers in the Databook are absolute. They state that Hidan & Kisame have maximum proficiency in stamina, which isn't wrong. The Manga though, which is also canon, shows us that Kisame has more.



That's your interpretation. Your opinion. In my opinion the numbers are particular for each character. Imo those numbers only show the potential of every single character.

For example if character A (who has been described as not having that much chakra) has a 4 in stamina, It would mean that he has reached 4/5 of the maximum amount of stamina he can have potentially.

But he can still have less stamina than a character whose stat in stamina is just 2.5. Because that 2.5 only means that out of the maximum amount of stamina that character to achieve training he only has acquired half.

That way if Minato, Itachi and Gai all have a 5 in speed, It doesn't mean that they have identical speeds, but that they all have reached the maximum speed their bodies can reach. In other words their maximum potential.



Rocky said:


> And the first Hokage.



That's why you have know the difference between rank and level. Hashirama was Kage in rank because there isn't any other rank above it. But he is above Kage level.



Rocky said:


> Only current Konahamru is Kage level, because he defeated a Pain body.



What about Inari, he was able to knock down Naruto. The same Naruto who tamed the Kyubi 

Inari the balls crusher.


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## Ersa (Aug 13, 2013)

Kurenai stomps in a straight-up fight. The gap between Genin and Jounin was made pretty clear back in part I, apart from monsters like CS2 VOTE Sasuke and KN1 Naruto the rest of the Konoha 11 were fodder compared to their Sensei.

With these restrictions it's pretty even although given Kurenai managed to react to Itachi I'd say it's very hard for Neji to tag her and she could simply outlast him.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Kurenai stomps in a straight-up fight. The gap between Genin and Jounin was made pretty clear back in part I, apart from monsters like CS2 VOTE Sasuke and KN1 Naruto the rest of the Konoha 11 were fodder compared to their Sensei.
> 
> With these restrictions it's pretty even although given Kurenai managed to react to Itachi I'd say it's very hard for Neji to tag her and she could simply outlast him.



Their sensei's weren't fodder jounin level either.
The rank jounin + a name is not given to anyone in the story who is fodder.

Rank is a piece of the puzzle, but it is a very small piece.
The difference between Kakashi and some fodder jounin is night and day.  We saw that in part 1 too, when the invasion of Konoha took place.  Sand and sound chunin  & jounin were clashing up against he sensei's, and being roflstomped.

Most of the genin fall into this category as well.  They surpassed the rank genin almost instantly.  Because of the invasion, only shikamaru was able to become a chunin.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Their sensei's weren't fodder jounin level either.
> The rank jounin + a name is not given to anyone in the story who is fodder.
> 
> Rank is a piece of the puzzle, but it is a very small piece.
> ...





Are you aware that during that same invasion the 12 genins of Konoha were fodderized by fodder chuunins of the sound?

Kakashi was never described as plain Jounin, since the Zabuza saga It was stated that Kakashi was a elite jounin. While most of the jounins you talk about weren't real jounin but special jounins. For example the village of the sound was new, It's first promotion to take part on the chuunin exam was the one we saw, therefore It didn't have any official jounin in his army.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

The sound chunin are not fodder chunin.  That is insanely disingenuous...  With their extremely unusual abilities they are obviously high chunin level.   The genin lost or narrowly defeated this ninja, which obviously puts them at the mid chunin level.  Well except maybe chouji, he was low chunin, and maybe even genin.

So during the war, how did Kakashi get promoted?  There obviously weren't any chunin exams...
You don't need to take that stupid test!  You are putting way too much emphasis on rank, and it is near meaningless in the story.  The only rank in the story that has significant meaning is Kage, and even at the Kage level the battle skill varies wildly.


Special Jounin

A Jounin that specializes in a specific area of expertise. Morino Ibiki, for example, is head of the Konoha's Interrogation Unit, which is basically torture. Anko is a Special Jounin because of her familiarity with the recent Village of Sound, which Konoha has next to no information about. ANBU teams, which serve as police and assassination squads, are also Special Jounins. 

Jounin

Chuunins who have shown extraordinary amounts of strength and intelligence are promoted to Jounin. This is a high ranking, and one is sent on more difficult missions than Chuunins, usually involving assassination or theft, or in some cases, information gathering. Jounins are also believed to be mature enough to handle a squad of genins and to train them.


The title elite jounin is just made up by the fans.


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## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

people stop arguing with zuhaitz he doesn't know what he is talking about 
Obviously when he implies because 2 people have 5 in speed it means they are equal 
As he has been told it simply means they excel in that area. same
For 5 in taijutsu or any other criteria. Kurenai 5 in gen isn't the same as itschi's however they both rely on it and are specialist at using it. Hence why they get a 5. Sasuke is better than Kurenai at genjutsu however he doesn't get a 5 because he relies less on it


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> The sound chunin are not fodder chunin.  That is insanely disingenuous...  With their extremely unusual abilities they are obviously high chunin level.   The genin lost or narrowly defeated this ninja, which obviously puts them at the mid chunin level.  Well except maybe chouji, he was low chunin, and maybe even genin.



You are confusing the sound 4 with the random chuunins from the sound that Asuma, Kakashi and Gai one shoot. 

Against the sound 4 the genins did reach the lowest possible tier of chuunin level.



Jackashflash said:


> So during the war, how did Kakashi get promoted?  There obviously weren't any chunin exams...
> You don't need to take that stupid test!  You are putting way too much emphasis on rank, and it is near meaningless in the story.  The only rank in the story that has significant meaning is Kage, and even at the Kage level the battle skill varies wildly.



Who has told you that during war times there weren't tests?
There were wars or conflicts between the 5 nations almost every year, that didn't stop the test for what we know. In fact we saw the chuunin exam Kakashi passed to be chuunin 



Jackashflash said:


> Special Jounin
> 
> A Jounin that specializes in a specific area of expertise. Morino Ibiki, for example, is head of the Konoha's Interrogation Unit, which is basically torture. Anko is a Special Jounin because of her familiarity with the recent Village of Sound, which Konoha has next to no information about. ANBU teams, which serve as police and assassination squads, are also Special Jounins.
> 
> ...



Nop, It's not an official rank but It's was mentioned in the manga a few times. Like when Asuma's position as one of the 12 guardian was stated.



Icegaze said:


> people stop arguing with zuhaitz he doesn't know what he is talking about
> Obviously when he implies because 2 people have 5 in speed it means they are equal
> As he has been told it simply means they excel in that area.



False. That's what your short intelligence has allowed you to understand. What I have said is that as It's a fact that 2 people with the same number in a certain stat aren't equal in that stat, the numbers aren't absolutes. From the moment those numbers aren't something absolute, bur rather something one must have to interpret, those numbers become meaningless for this kind of debate, because the same numbers can have 2 different interpretation for 2 people, with no one of them having the absolute correct answer.

I know that It's difficult, but I'm sure that you can even understand that if you try really hard.



Icegaze said:


> same
> For 5 in taijutsu or any other criteria. Kurenai 5 in gen isn't the same as itschi's however they both rely on it and are specialist at using it. Hence why they get a 5. Sasuke is better than Kurenai at genjutsu however he doesn't get a 5 because he relies less on it



In my opinion It doesn't show how specialized someone is one area. It shows how much of their potential in that specific area that character has reach. Kurenai can't be any better at genjutsu, she has reach her maximum potential in that area and so her stat in genjutsu 5/5.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

You fail so hard...

By your logic Sasuke and Naruto are still genin, and thus suck.

I literally can't put enough facepalms on the screen, but I will try.






Yah, I am done.  GL!


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> You fail so hard...
> 
> By your logic Sasuke and Naruto are still genin, and thus suck.
> 
> ...



You are certainly stupid. I know the difference between level and rank, unlike you.

Naruto is beyond Kage level at this point, he is rank genin.
Neji was low chuunin level at the end of the second part, rank genin.
Kurenai is jounin level.

Jounin > low chuunin 

This thread was made by someone with your intellectual level who was trying to make fun of me, the poll end up showing that I was right


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

You make fun of yourself all on your own....  Trust me, you need no help.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> You make fun of yourself all on your own....  Trust me, you need no help.



Really?



You are the one defending that Neji can win, despite the fact even Turrin and other respected users have validated my point. Keep crying.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> You are the one defending that Neji can win, despite the fact even Turrin and other respected users have validated my point. Keep crying.



You can't even read the results.
The # of people who say they troll is equal, thus they can be ignored.

I wanted to change my vote too, but I can't.  
I think another poster said that as well.  Thus, the results should be 
8 neji wins
11 kurenei wins

This sample size is too small to mean anything definitive, and of course popular opinion doesn't translate to fact.  That is a fallacy.  The poll is also biased!  Most vote before they read any arguments.

However, the only thing these results say is that most people would put them about equal.
That is pretty fair given we don't really have any taijutsu feats for kurenei.


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## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz the wise one who knows all  
Bow in front of his flawless logic . No feats logic which says anyone ranked above another wins
Sadly kishi doesn't agree ebisu is weaker than konohamaru


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> You can't even read the results.
> The # of people who say they troll is equal, thus they can be ignored.
> 
> I wanted to change my vote too, but I can't.
> ...



No, you got it wrong again. The people who think Kurenai wins despite the handicaps seem to think that she is comfortably above Neji's level, while the people that think that Neji wins think that they are close.

That suggest that even the people that underestimate Kurenai and wank Neji are aware of the different of their levels.



Icegaze said:


> Zuhaitz the wise one who knows all
> Bow in front of his flawless logic . No feats logic which says anyone ranked above another wins
> Sadly kishi doesn't agree ebisu is weaker than konohamaru



Keeping saying things I haven't said even once, keep making a fool of yourself.

Ranks and Levels aren't the same.

Anyone with more level is above someone with lower level. Ranks aside.

Also lol your feats, Konohamaru vs Shichui. Make that thread and we'll see if feats are more reliable than common sense and power scaling.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Not everything in the manga must be interpreted. If a character defeat another there's little to interpret



Unless there were mitigating circumstances or the characters abilities and/or knowledge changed since then.


> And as each has their own interpretation the databook becomes meaningless in the debate.
> 
> That's your interpretation. Your opinion. In my opinion the numbers are particular for each character. Imo those numbers only show the potential of every single character.



The databook stats were explained in the databook. They refer to actual skill, not potential. You only interpret them that way because you want to, not because it is reasonable. What's funny is that you say "if it becomes debatable, they are worthless". 

You have no argument that aren't based on power scaling and "common sense". Which is funny because they are the most debatable thing in the world. Heck, the very existence of the phrase common sense disproves it's own existence. No one would use it if there was actually general agreement amongst people on the subjects people use it in.


> For example if character A (who has been described as not having that much chakra) has a 4 in stamina, It would mean that he has reached 4/5 of the maximum amount of stamina he can have potentially.



Did you just describe Ei as not having that much chakra?

His chakra was described as Bijuu level. You really can't be taken seriously.


> That's why you have know the difference between rank and level. Hashirama was Kage in rank because there isn't any other rank above it. But he is above Kage level.



According to who? You? When was Hasharima called above Kage level? What defines above Kage level? It's not something from the manga. It's from your imagination. Kage level would be defined, from the manga, as the level from the weakest Kage ever to the strongest Kage ever.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Unless there were mitigating circumstances or the characters abilities and/or knowledge changed since then.



I know, that's why I havent said that there isn't anything to interpret in those cases.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> The databook stats were explained in the databook. They refer to actual skill, not potential. You only interpret them that way because you want to, not because it is reasonable. What's funny is that you say "if it becomes debatable, they are worthless".



If they show the actual skill then Lee is as fast as Gai, who is fast as Itachi, who is as fast as Minato. And the actual chakra level of Hidan, Naruto, Kisame and probably the Raikage is the same.

Unless those number don't show the actual skill, but rather a tier  or level, or the progress, or something that It's up to us to interpret.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> You have no argument that aren't based on power scaling and "common sense". Which is funny because they are the most debatable thing in the world. Heck, the very existence of the phrase common sense disproves it's own existence. No one would use it if there was actually general agreement amongst people on the subjects people use it in.



That's why there's this forum, to debate. And It's better to debate based on the manga rather than doing it based on a databook that the manga has debunk countless times.




SubtleObscurantist said:


> Did you just describe Ei as not having that much chakra?
> 
> His chakra was described as Bijuu level. You really can't be taken seriously.



No I haven't. Try to understand what I mean a little harder. A character means random character who you can name A, X or John Doe if you please.




SubtleObscurantist said:


> According to who? You? When was Hasharima called above Kage level? What defines above Kage level? It's not something from the manga. It's from your imagination. Kage level would be defined, from the manga, as the level from the weakest Kage ever to the strongest Kage ever.



According to you someone can be Kage level despite being weaker than any know Kage 

In my opinion the Kage level's lowest end come from the weakest Kage. While there are monster that have a powerlevel that goes beyond what any other Kage has shown. That's Hashirama. 

To define the level Hashirama has you can't use the same term you use to define Mei's level in my opinion.

In my opinion the levels can be defined by:
-Genin
-Chuunin
-Jounin
-Elite Jounin/Captain
-Kage candidate/General
-Kage
-Beyond Kage/God of shinobi
-Rikudo

At the end of the first part Neji was a Genin Rank and low chuunin level shinobi. Kurenai was a jounin. A low  to mid Jounin level.
And if you use less tiers than that you'll end up having Hashirama and Mei in the same tier. Or Gai and Kimimaro in the same tier.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> If they show the actual skill then Lee is as fast as Gai, who is fast as Itachi, who is as fast as Minato. And the actual chakra level of Hidan, Naruto, Kisame and probably the Raikage is the same.



According to the third and latest databook, which came out before the Kirabi vs Taka fight if I recall correctly, Lee is a 4.5 in speed. Gai has been a 5 in speed since the first datebook. Minato hasn't been in the databook yet although yeah, he is probably a 5. Itachi is a 5. But guess what, the databook can't represent anything higher than a 5. That is the highest score available. It doesn't mean they are all equal. Plus it wouldn't count Shunshin since that is a ninjutsu. Although based on their simultaneous reaction to Haku, I would guess Lee and Gai have now arrived at the same base speed since all the rookies and young ninja have been closing in on their masters and parents.


> Unless those number don't show the actual skill, but rather a tier  or level, or the progress, or something that It's up to us to interpret.



They show skill level. It's why the numbers are broken down by 0.5 rather than 0.1 or something more precise. Regardless of whether you are using powerscaling, hype, feats, or databook, you need to interpret everything to do it. That's why it's best to use all four so you can balance the one against the other. If you just use one or two (like you do), that's more subjective than using all four since you are getting maximum possible information to help offset a mistaken interpretation of any one single source. The fact that they can appear to be in conflict actually is a good sign, because if whatever evidence you decided to use always seemed to be neat and support whatever you were saying, that wouldn't be a sign that you were dealing with good evidence, that would be a sign you were letting your own preconceptions and subjective impressions dictate everything. Being forced to reconcile feats, hype, and the datebook means you have to consider things from as many sides as possible. 


> No I haven't. Try to understand what I mean a little harder. A character means random character who you can name A, X or John Doe if you please.




My mistake.


> To define the level Hashirama has you can't use the same term you use to define Mei's level in my opinion.



In your opinion. Which goes to show how subjective your power scaling is. Now I use above Kage level tiers myself, but I know they are subjective and you can't tell someone who has a different tier system that they are wrong.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> According to the third and latest databook, which came out before the Kirabi vs Taka fight if I recall correctly, Lee is a 4.5 in speed. Gai has been a 5 in speed since the first datebook. Minato hasn't been in the databook yet although yeah, he is probably a 5. Itachi is a 5. But guess what, the databook can't represent anything higher than a 5. That is the highest score available. It doesn't mean they are all equal. Plus it wouldn't count Shunshin since that is a ninjutsu. Although based on their simultaneous reaction to Haku, I would guess Lee and Gai have now arrived at the same base speed since all the rookies and young ninja have been closing in on their masters and parents.



If all the people with the same number don't have the same skill in that area, then the number doesn't show the skill of a certain character in that area 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> They show skill level. It's why the numbers are broken down by 0.5 rather than 0.1 or something more precise. Regardless of whether you are using powerscaling, hype, feats, or databook, you need to interpret everything to do it. That's why it's best to use all four so you can balance the one against the other. If you just use one or two (like you do), that's more subjective than using all four since you are getting maximum possible information to help offset a mistaken interpretation of any one single source. The fact that they can appear to be in conflict actually is a good sign, because if whatever evidence you decided to use always seemed to be neat and support whatever you were saying, that wouldn't be a sign that you were dealing with good evidence, that would be a sign you were letting your own preconceptions and subjective impressions dictate everything. Being forced to reconcile feats, hype, and the datebook means you have to consider things from as many sides as possible.



Except that the numbers in the databook are debunk by the manga. Genin Shikamaru was described as extremely fast by Temari, but he was slow in the databooks. Kakashi is supposed to be faster than Hidan, yet they were about as fast in the manga when they fought.

Sasuke was supposed to have more stamina than Itachi, by far, yet they were worn out at the same time.

There are multiple examples of databook numbers not being reliables. 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> In your opinion. Which goes to show how subjective your power scaling is. Now I use above Kage level tiers myself, but I know they are subjective and you can't tell someone who has a different tier system that they are wrong.



I can tell someone who puts Inari in the chuunin level that he is wrong. He may be wrong in the term to use or wrong in the principle for the classification.

In the case of the Kage-level-Kimimaro. I can tell the ones who think that, that to be Kage-level someone must be equal in powers to, at least, the weakest Kage. To be Kage rank that wouldn't be necessary, but the lowest level of Kages should be defined by the level of the weakest Kage, shouldn't it?


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> If all the people with the same number don't have the same skill in that area, then the number doesn't show the skill of a certain character in that area



It shows level of skill. The numbers aren't precise enough, since they move in increments of 0.5 and max out at 5 to show it perfectly. Being imperfect doesn't mean they are useless. 


> Except that the numbers in the databook are debunk by the manga. Genin Shikamaru was described as extremely fast by Temari, but he was slow in the databooks. Kakashi is supposed to be faster than Hidan, yet they were about as fast in the manga when they fought.
> 
> Sasuke was supposed to have more stamina than Itachi, by far, yet they were worn out at the same time.



But that only goes to show you don't try to figure out how the databook is supposed to work. 

Shunshin can boost speed plenty but it is ninjutsu and part of that score. Hidan and Kakashi never were in a battle of speed, since they were already at close range. That was a weapons battle. Hidan's weapon was long and deadlier than a kunai so he was able to press Kakashi. Plus, backpedaling is slower than moving forward regardless of who is doing it.

As Ebisu explained, someone who has more chakra can wear out faster than someone else with more chakra. It's called chakra control. It's represented through the hand seals category, which of course refers to molding chakra. Itachi had a 5 whereas Sasuke had a 4. And remember that Itachi didn't outlast Sasuke's chakra by that long.  


> In the case of the Kage-level-Kimimaro. I can tell the ones who think that, that to be Kage-level someone must be equal in powers to, at least, the weakest Kage. To be Kage rank that wouldn't be necessary, but the lowest level of Kages should be defined by the level of the weakest Kage, shouldn't it?



Neither Hiruzen nor Yondaime Kazekage were that impressive. Oh, and btw, you don't use the strongest Kage (Hasharima) as the standard for the upper limit of the Kage tier. Why should the weakest Kage be the standard for the lower limit of the Kage tier? You have a double standard.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> It shows level of skill. The numbers aren't precise enough, since they move in increments of 0.5 and max out at 5 to show it perfectly. Being imperfect doesn't mean they are useless.
> 
> But that only goes to show you don't try to figure out how the databook is supposed to work.
> 
> Shunshin can boost speed plenty but it is ninjutsu and part of that score. Hidan and Kakashi never were in a battle of speed, since they were already at close range. That was a weapons battle. Hidan's weapon was long and deadlier than a kunai so he was able to press Kakashi. Plus, backpedaling is slower than moving forward regardless of who is doing it.




Their speed was almost identical. Don't try to deny the evidence. They climbed the tree at the same speed and they jump at the same speed.
One has a 3.5 in speed and the other a 4.5 if I'm not mistaken and they are as fast.

That wasn't shunshin, that was the evidence of the databook being simply wrong.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Their speed was almost identical. Don't try to deny the evidence. They climbed the tree at the same speed and they jump at the same speed.
> One has a 3.5 in speed and the other a 4.5 if I'm not mistaken and they are as fast.
> 
> That wasn't shunshin, that was the evidence of the databook being simply wrong.



It's not evidence though. You are just interpreting the panel wrong. Kakashi was backpedaling while Hidan was charging. Charging forward is faster than moving back. Unless you think the faster sprinter in the world can move just as fast backwards as forwards. _But that's not how speed works_.


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## Olympian (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Kurenai used Shunshin to intercept Neji when he wasn't paying any attention to her and was "seeing red" as the expression goes.



Neji paying attention would only mean he would try to mount a defensive maneuver. The scene was meant to ilustrate that he was way out of his league in speed compared to the sensei. 

Neji was seeing red and wanted to kill Hinata who was right in front him and they were all still too fast for him. That is all there is to it. He even got a warning before they made a move.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Neji paying attention would only mean he would try to mount a defensive maneuver. The scene was menat to ilustrate that he was way out of his league in speed compared to the sensei.
> 
> Neji was seeing red and wanted to kill Hinata who was right in front him and they were all still too fast for him. That is all there is to it. He even got a warning before they made a move.



The scene was not meant to illustrate anything about speed or else they would have had a panel showing him noticing their movement but not being able to keep up. That is how speed is illustrated in this manga. Not dramatic interceptions.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

The best Databook I have ever read was for Fairy Tail.

It had the usual stuff listed like strength and speed, and then it also had stuff like bust size, stripping speed, cleavage, rocking, etc..  
Just so you knew it was a joke, and you shouldn't take it serious.  
All databooks should do that!


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## Olympian (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> The scene was not meant to illustrate anything about speed or else they would have had a panel showing him noticing their movement but not being able to keep up. *That is how speed is illustrated in this manga*. Not dramatic interceptions.



He did noticed. In the exact moment he got turtled.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 13, 2013)

Olympian said:


> He did noticed. In the exact moment he got turtled.



I guess Part I Naruto is faster than Kabuto even with an injured leg. That is the conclusion you are left with once you start taking dramatic interceptions as seriously as you do.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 14, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I guess Part I Naruto is faster than Kabuto even with an injured leg. That is the conclusion you are left with once you start taking dramatic interceptions as seriously as you do.



I guess you are intentionally ignoring that Kishimoto made the feat of the jounins and chuunins stopping Neji, not to hype Neji, but to show us the immense difference between the genins and the jounin-chuunins. 

While he made the one of Kabuto being caught and hit by Naruto to show us that a ninja is a ninja because he/she never surrenders.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 14, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> I guess you are intentionally ignoring that Kishimoto made the feat of the jounins and chuunins stopping Neji, not to hype Neji, but to show us the immense difference between the genins and the jounin-chuunins.
> 
> While he made the one of Kabuto being caught and hit by Naruto to show us that a ninja is a ninja because he/she never surrenders.



Or I could say that he made it to show that it takes four Jounin to stop him. But that would be just as made up as your explanation. It wasn't intended for any such purpose other than in your imagination.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 14, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Or I could say that he made it to show that it takes four Jounin to stop him. But that would be just as made up as your explanation. It wasn't intended for any such purpose other than in your imagination.



No. The difference is that what I say makes sense. What you say is worth of putting in my sign for the level of lolz It has.

 

Genin Neji >>>>>> Kakashi+Gai+Kurenai+Hayate


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## IchLiebe (Aug 14, 2013)

Kurenai breaks out of genjutsu and dodges Itachi. Itachi's foot is inches from Kurenai's face, her hands down, and she still blocks it. 

I think she can handle Neji.


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