# Minato vs Kakashi



## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Location : Obito vs Naruto , Kakashi , Gai , Bee
Distance : 30m
Knowledge : Full
Restriction : summoning , FTG , MS , Kurama 

It's War Kakashi


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato is restricted to basically his shunshin speed (which is still top tier no doubt.) But Kakashi isn't a snail and has acess to 3T sharingan precog. He also has a wider array of element use. Minato hasn't shown any of that.

It comes down to if Kakashi can escape a shunshin rasengan or not. If he can avoid that he beats Minato in every other way.

Thing is Minato is fast. Like way fast, lol. I am not sure how this goes.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 9, 2015)

Thing is he can avoid everything and anything in kakashis arsenal on foot. And will wreck kakashi in cqc. Even hidan who called himself the slowest akatsuki memeber was holding his own against kakashi.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Without FTG , Minato will use standart fighting method (clones , smok cloud, feints...) , since he has much more reflexes (higher than V2 Ei) and super fast Shunshin (according to Obito) , and much more charka , he will win the fight low/mid diff . Even without FTG , he still stronger than mid-Kage level themselves stronger than Kakashi w/o MS .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato has comparable reflexes to V1 A. Anything beyond that is fanfiction.


Anyways, Kakashi wins. 3 tomoe Kakashi is more versatile and much more resourceful than Minato. Minato is limited to clone strategy and rasengan. Kakashi has him beat in the clone deparment, as he has much better feats, and his raiton variants triumph over rasengan. 3 tomoe negates any speed advantage Minato has(if he has any). 
Mid dif for Kakashi.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> since he has much more reflexes (higher than V2 Ei) .






			
				Shounensuki said:
			
		

> 「雷影様の体内の神経伝達…反射のスピードは黄色い閃光に劣らない…こいつらよくついてきてい る方だ」
> "The Raikage-sama's neurotransmissions... The speed of his reflexes don't fall behind to [those of] the Yellow Flash... Those guys have been keeping up pretty well."
> 
> 「しかし反射を活性化するための雷遁チャクラをまとった以上写輪眼でも追いつけない」
> ...


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

If we interpret it like that then the Raikage wasn't even usig lightening armour against Sasuke and Taka and you know that it's pretty wrong . Plus base Raikage's reflexes are just normal , any Kage can move at the same speed , yet Minato's reflexes aren't normal .


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## Kyu (Nov 9, 2015)

Max RnY Ei > Minato w/o FTG = RnY Ei > base Ei

Someone slower than Minato kept up with Raikage's normal RnY, it's clear Minato's reflexes are in the same ballpark if not superior. And no he isn't contending with Ei's top speed either - not without teleportation or a stable senjutsu boost at least.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> If we interpret it like that then the Raikage wasn't even usig lightening armour against Sasuke and Taka and you know that it's pretty wrong . Plus base Raikage's reflexes are just normal , any Kage can move at the same speed , yet Minato's reflexes aren't normal .


The speed of their synapses were being compared, not their physical speed. A already admitted Minato was the fastest man alive.

After activating Raiton no Yoroi, A's reflexes exceeds Minato's.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

That's your interpretetion , Cee was talking about reputation , Raikage's reflexes in lightening armour are known to be near Minato's , there is no V1 or V2 , it's just fan designation. Since Raikage is always using V2 againt him , then he was talking about V2 .

In reflexes speed :
Raikage<<V1 Raikage<V2 Raikage<=Minato

And synapse=reflexes .

Cee was talking about Raikage+lghtening armour because he ws already using it against Taka  it was already acivated .


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> That's your interpretetion , Cee was talking about reputation , Raikage's reflexes in lightening armour are known to be near Minato's , there is no V1 or V2 , it's just fan designation. Since Raikage is always using V2 againt him , then he was talking about V2 .
> 
> In reflexes speed :
> Raikage<<V1 Raikage<V2 Raikage<=Minato
> ...



Lol what the hell? Dude literally posted a VIZ scan and a Japanese translation and you are still trying to argue? Cut that shit out. 

"Raikage and Minato are comparable"

"But he's using RnY here"

The Raikage-sama's neurotransmissions... *The speed of his reflexes don't fall behind to [those of] the Yellow Flash... *Those guys have been keeping up pretty well."

「しかし反射を活性化するための雷遁チャクラをまとった以上写輪眼でも追いつけない」
"*However*, after he put on the raiton chakra in order to activate his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can catch up with him."

Meaning, Raikage and Minato are normally comparable, but RnY pushes him above that. It's not his interpretation. It's him reiterating fact.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

"The Raikage-sama's neurotransmissions... The speed of his reflexes don't fall behind to [those of] the Yellow Flash... Those guys have been keeping up pretty well."

So , if I understand this correctly , Raikage wasn't  using Lightening armour against Sasuke , and he will activate it later to boost his reflexes and overwhelm the Sharingan  .


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> "The Raikage-sama's neurotransmissions... The speed of his reflexes don't fall behind to [those of] the Yellow Flash... Those guys have been keeping up pretty well."
> 
> So , if I understand this correctly , Raikage wasn't  using Lightening armour against Sasuke , and he will activate it later to boost his reflexes and overwhelm the Sharingan  .



*"However, *after he put on the raiton chakra in order to activate his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can catch up with him."


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## Kyu (Nov 9, 2015)

Six y/o Cee has seen it all.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> *"However, *after he put on the raiton chakra in order to activate his reflexes, not even the Sharingan can catch up with him."



So :
-Sasuke is fighting Raikage and following his moves in RCM .

And :
-Bse Raikage will activate RCM and he will overwhelm even the Sharingan .

Just lol . That translation is just not good because it's spread nonsens , two contradictory statements .


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So :
> -Sasuke is fighting Raikage and following his moves in RCM .
> 
> And :
> ...



LOL so now the official translation and the direct interpretation of what Kishi wrote isn't good?  Yeah, no. Tell me another joke. C said that normally Raikage's reflexes=Base Minato's, so he's surprised that they are doing as well as he is. Then he goes on to say that WITH THE ARMOR ON SHARINGAN WONT BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.

Anyway, official translations>You. V2 Ay>V1 Ay>Base Minato=Base Ay in reflex.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

And so you agree to accept two contradictory statements in one sentence 

Raikage is fighting Taka with his RCM and they keep up with him yet he is in base and he is in base and will activate RCM to overwhelm them


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

I found another translation (in french) , and it's not saying the same thing of that translation .


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And so you agree to accept two contradictory statements in one sentence
> 
> Raikage is fighting Taka with his RCM and they keep up with him yet he is in base and he is in base and will activate RCM to overwhelm them



 So basically, keeping up a Raiton Cloak isn't manipulating Raiton Chakra?.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

If so , then Cee was talking about RCM Raikage since the beggining because Taka was following RCM Raikage's moves not his base mode .


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 9, 2015)

He was stating how they perceive V1 Ei's speed when even the fastest man's alive's reflexes only compared to Base Raikage's. If anything, that just proves that Minato's own reflexes aren't as incredible as people make it out to be.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

3TS Sasuke relfexes are better than V1 Raikage . You are actually sayng that Minato is slower than 3TS Sasuke ,

And it's quite obvious that Cee was talking about RCM Raikage because base Raikages reflexes are nothing more than an average Kage level whi is not specliazed in moves/shunshin speed .


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## thechickensage (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato wins in a swag contest as well


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> 3TS Sasuke relfexes are better than V1 Raikage . You are actually sayng that Minato is slower than 3TS Sasuke ,
> 
> And it's quite obvious that Cee was talking about RCM Raikage because base Raikages reflexes are nothing more than an average Kage level whi is not specliazed in moves/shunshin speed .


Don't forget C hangs his thought with "Plus there's still..." as shown in the Viz, implying A can 'activate' his reflexes even further than at that moment.

And that is exactly what we see once Sasuke resorts to Amaterasu.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

No it's just a weird translation , I can bring you another translation in another language they say as well as he keeps his RCM activated , not the absurd "if he activate RCM" while he was already using it lol .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 9, 2015)

Holy fuck, actually base A and Minato have comparable reaction speed. So even V1 A is implied to have better reactions than Minato.
All this time I thought it was V1 A that was being compared to Minato.

Shiieeeeeet



hbcaptain said:


> That's your interpretetion , Cee was talking about reputation , Raikage's reflexes in lightening armour are known to be near Minato's , there is no V1 or V2 , it's just fan designation. Since Raikage is always using V2 againt him , then he was talking about V2 .
> 
> In reflexes speed :
> Raikage<<V1 Raikage<V2 Raikage<=Minato
> ...



Being this delusional


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Only Itachi fans will say that lol


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Holy fuck, actually base A and Minato have comparable reaction speed. So even V1 A is implied to have better reactions than Minato.
> All this time I thought it was V1 A that was being compared to Minato.
> 
> Shiieeeeeet



You never knew this? I thought this was well known.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Itachi and Raikage fans logic :
Minato=Base Raikage<<V1 Raikage<3TS Sasuke



The manga was pretty clear :
V2 Raikage<=Minato in reflexes , any other answer is just fans (or haters) fanfic .


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

In reflexes? Sasuke < A ~ Minato < v1 A < v2 A.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

3TS Sasuke > Raikage , it's canon :


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Itachi and Raikage fans logic :
> Minato=Base Raikage<<V1 Raikage<3TS Sasuke
> 
> 
> ...



Sharingan precog isn't exactly reflex, but yes if Minato and Sasuke fought in taijutsu it is very likely that Minato would be outmanuevered like Raikage did. Actually worse, given he doesn't have V1 A's reflexes or body speed.



Rocky said:


> You never knew this? I thought this was well known.



Naa, I always thought C was referring to V1 A and the latter part of the comment was indicating A could get faster(referring to V2).
But turns out I was wrong.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

> Sharingan precog isn't exactly reflex, but yes if Minato and Sasuke fought in taijutsu it is very likely that Minato would be outmanuevered like Raikage did.


Lol


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Sharingan foresight isn't an exact science, but it allows for the user to take _proactive_ measures. That's _on top_ of the super reflexes it gives him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Lol



#staymad

Sasuke > Minato


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

reflexe=gathering data+analyzing data+giving orders+moves .
The Sharingan is affecting gathering data so it's affecting reflexes .


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

You said that Raikage can turn arround SM Minato and now you are blablating that 3TS Sasuke as more reflexes than Minato lol , Itachi fans lol


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 9, 2015)

With sharingan precog, Sasuke trumps Minato with anything that involves movement.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Euh , no Sasuke has more "gathering data" while Minato has much more moves speed , and "sending orders" .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 9, 2015)

TBH Minato's speed feats don't go outside Hirashin. So it is really hard to evaluate him relative to other characters. He never fought anyone with taijutsu or foot speed alone.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke trumps Minato with anything that involves movement.



Sasuke will do better than Minato in taijutsu.

But if there were an instance where Sasuke lacked the speed to evade or block something, that doesn't mean that Minato has the same problem.

Like I said, it isn't an exact science. Since Hiraishin is Minato's go-to reflex, he's got no normal super reflex feats.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

And you have any of Minato's feats without FTG (his fighting style is basef on Hiraishin) , and if you don't  just shut up because you can't demosntrate anything , 

Also his Taijutsu moves are based on FTG (Lvl2 , RSCK , Hiraishin Mawashi,...) , since it's at a whole another level compared to raw Taijutsu (Kenjutsu , or some weapon use) , then he use the best combos , that's all , saing that Minato is weak in Taijutsu is just Itachi fans fanfic .


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 9, 2015)

SM wasn't restricted, that should amp his shunshin to levels Kakashi will have difficulty with. Senpo Rasengan also likely owns Raikiri if Minato doesn't simply go around it with danger sense that is superior to 3-toma precog and land it on him cleanly. 

Minato was consistently praised for his shunshin speed outside of FTG by Obito, Tobirama & the databook.

Kakashi was literally never praised for speed by anyone.

As far as Ei having superior reactions to Minato, that's entirely false. Minato reacted to truthseekers, Kamui, V2 Ei & literally counter blitzed V2 Ei kneeing him without a reaction.

This is the dude that is equal to Base Ei in reactions? What I've read in this thread so far is literally the most Ei hype, and most Minato disrespect that I've ever seen in the NBD. 

Minato's hand speed in CQC is top tier, he will kill most people in close just because of this. 

SM, Bunshin, Kunai projectiles & Senpo Rasengan should close this for him.


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## Mercurial (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato's reflexes obviously are above, far above the ones of V2 Ei. It it wasn't like that, Minato couldn't make Ei his bitch, Minato having the same reflexes of Base Ei is ridicolous by what the manga did show. C doesn't know the fuck he is saying, especially because when Minato fought with Ei he was still a child, so he really has no way to tell how exactly Minato was fast in comparison to Ei. C is just hyping Ei for the sake of it, that is.

Out of that, Kakashi wins. He is a complete and perfectly well rounded ninja with the MS as a trump card. So without MS he still is a very dangerous opponent at high levels, because MS isn't his bread and butter, but his haxxed trump card. Hiraishin for Minato is his bread and butter, without Hiraishin, well he actually doesn't have much in comparison to Kakashi, even restricted to 3TS, or other top level shinobi. 

Kakashi has comparable speed and reactions to Minato (since you have them reacting at the same time at a sudden threat [1] and there aren't any other feats to disprove that) and speed is Minato's best asset, which isn't going to do really much against someone with more than comparable speed and reflexes who is also amped by Sharingan precognition. Out of that, Kakashi's ninjutsu is far above Minato's (Raikiri, Rasengan, Raikiri extended in Raijuu Tsuiga, Raiden, Raikiri infused in weapons, Kage Bunshin, Tajuu Kage Bunshin, Raiton Kage Bunshin, powerful Suiton like Suiryodan, Daibafuku, Suikodan and Suijinheki that he can use, with the help of a Kage Bunshin or one after another, in combo with Raiton to create paralysis, he can use Doton to move underground which is very useful, and what not 1000 jutsu vs... Rasengan, Kage Bunshin, unknown fuinjutsu techniques and Kuchiyose no jutsu, which isn't going to do much, since Preta Path, definitely slower than Kakashi, and Deva Path, at the very best as fast as Kakashi, were able to literally run circles around Gamabunta, so Kakashi can just dodge him and deal with him with a Sharingan genjutsu, forcing Minato to undone the summon, or deal with him with clones, since without having the MS to decrease his chakra levels, he can almost spam ninjutsu with his War Arc stamina feats). Kakashi's taijutsu is better, he is more skilled and can amp himself with Sharingan precognition, 1st Gate and with Raikiri infused in his weapon; Kakashi also has Sharingan genjutsu on Obito's level, and I'd love to see what Minato would do if caught in a Sharingan genjutsu on that level, even if just as a distraction.

Easiest outcome? Minato hits a Raiton Kage Bunshin and gets fried and paralyzed, and Kakashi is on his ass with Raikiri.

That said


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

> Easiest outcome? Minato hits a Raiton Kage Bunshin and gets fried and paralyzed, and Kakashi is on his ass with Raikiri.


Or Minato who hitted him was a clone , and then Kakashi got stomped by a rasengan from his back , Minato is also incredibly smart and praised for that .


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## Mercurial (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Or Minato who hitted him was a clone , and then Kakashi got stomped by a rasengan from his back , Minato is also incredibly smart and praised for that .



Minato has no feats of fooling anyone with clones.

Kakashi fooled Sharingan wielding Itachi and Rinnegan wielding Pain. I guess who is more skilled in feinting people with clones and who has most chances to fool the other with clones.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Minato's reflexes obviously are above, far above the ones of V2 Ei. It it wasn't like that, Minato couldn't make Ei his bitch, Minato having the same reflexes of Base Ei is ridicolous by what the manga did show. C doesn't know the fuck he is saying, especially because when Minato fought with Ei he was still a child, so he really has no way to tell how exactly Minato was fast in comparison to Ei. C is just hyping Ei for the sake of it, that is.


Minato has great natural reflexes; A's Raiton no Yoroi 'activates' his reflexes to another level and exceeds Minato's natural ones. If C was just a child at the time Minato and A dueled, that only means C is providing us with what is well known in the shinobi world, and he says the speed of Raikage's reflexes *do not fall behind* [to that of] Konoha's Yellow Flash.

A's physical speed simply doesn't compare with Hiraishin.

And I agree Raikiri, Kakashi should be a greater clone feinter than Minato. There should be absolutely no reason outside of status bias why Minato would be able to outplay Kakashi in a clone game.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Raikiri said:
			
		

> Minato has no feats of fooling anyone with clones.


No he have , Hiraishin Mawashi for example , but he isn't using clone feinst because FTG are much better , delet FTG and his fighting style will be completely different . 




> Kakashi fooled Sharingan wielding Itachi and Rinnegan wielding Pain. I guess who is more skilled in feinting people with clones and who has most chances to fool the other with clones.


Yeah thanks to Choza , Choji and Akimichi fodders , he said himself that he can't do it without some external aid .


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## Mercurial (Nov 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> SM wasn't restricted, that should amp his shunshin to levels Kakashi will have difficulty with. Senpo Rasengan also likely owns Raikiri if Minato doesn't simply go around it with danger sense that is superior to 3-toma precog.
> 
> Minato was consistently praised for his shunshin speed outside of FTG by Obito, Tobirama & the databook.
> 
> Kakashi was literally never praised for speed by anyone.



Minato won't even think about using SM, let alone being able to reach and use it. Minato himself thinks shit about his senjutsu.

Well he was praised for his speed by Kakuzu for being the first to react and dodge his combo attacks with Hidan (thanks to the Sharingan precognition too). Top notch raw speed is one of Kakashi's main qualities as a shinobi, as Obito unhappily has to underline and hype *()* and the 2nd databook does too *()*

But most importantly, he has good speed feats. Beginning of Shippuden Kakashi can casually outspeed and intercept Naruto in his Kyuubi powered first stages *(3)**(4)*, can move *(5)**(6)* for long distances *(7)**(8)* with Shunshin in the blink of an eye *(9)**(10)* and he easily handles a Shoten Itachi (30% of Itachi's chakra but perfectly equal skills in taijutsu, speed, everything) in a CQC battle, even using a Kage Bunshin *(11)**(12)*. Shippuden Kakashi could dodge a forest-destroying attack (Kakuzu's Fuuton: Atsugai) at point blank and with his attention divided by the taijutsu fight against Hidan (where, even with an already injured arm because of the training with Naruto, he was taking care of him with ease using just a mere kunai against his scythe), keeping up with Kakuzu's masks and taking an eye on team 10 *(13)**(14)**(15)* ... and right after that quickly jump to intercept Kakuzu's fast Raiton ninjutsu with Raikiri, saving team 10's asses *(16)*. With a little distraction, Kakashi could blitz Kakuzu who didn't even perceive his fast attack *()*, even if we know that Kakuzu has so fine reflexes and perception skills that he can perceive Shikamaru's Kagemane (who obviously doesn't make any noise) approaching his back *(18)*. It's worth note that Kakashi attacked so fast that even Hidan and the team 10 members, who were facing Kakuzu and so had free sight of what was happening behind him, were completely surprised. . Kakashi could nearly blitz Asura Path with his raw speed, dodging his giant AoE attacks and appearing at his back *(19)**(20)*, with the Pain body able to dodge Raikiri only thanks to the Rinnegan shared field of vision. Kakashi completely blitzed Zabuza, cutting off his arm with the sword and piercing his heart with a single dash *(21)**(22)**(23)*. Kakashi is so fast that he was able to keep up with Gated Gai's speed more than once *(24)* and together with Gai managed to counterblitz the V2 who were ganbanging KCM Naruto and Bee landing Raikiri on them *(25)*. Kakashi and base Gai were able to dodge a fast and wide AoE attack for a long time *(26)**(27)**(28)**()* from the fully transformed Rokubi.
Kakashi, right after regaining his mindset, outreacted and outspeeded Obito *(30)**()**(32)* who had the same physical speed of no Shunshin KCM Naruto *(33)*, who is casually as fast as Itachi *(34)* and V1 Ei *(35)*, who then Kakashi logically outspeeds. Kakashi also proved to be faster and better in CQC than Obito more than once *(36)**(37)*, even stopping his surprise attack with a powerful chakra rod *(38)**(39)*. Kakashi could also canonically move and react at least on par with Minato in physical speed, evidenced with both reacting and moving at the same time against a sudden threat *(40)*. Kakashi tracked KCM and BM Naruto's speed and insta-Kamui'd his attacks in the same time that Obito used his intangibilty (chap. 596), or manage to fool him in mere instants (re-read 598), these are some crazy feats, also reacting to surprise attacks with Susanoo arrows or reacting to Gudodama, reacting to sudden threats on par with Minato as said, outreacting Obito and so on. Even without being enhanced by the Sharingan, Kakashi's reactions are incredibily quick: when Kaguya appeared and suddenly instantly teleported everyone in free fall in a volcano, when everyone was falling at high speed in the lava, when they were just some metres above the lava Kakashi in basically a second was able to save himself, Sakura and Obito by: taking out a scroll, two kunai, wrapping the scroll around a kunai and throwing a kunai to a rock above, picking Sakura with his other arm, throwing the kunai hitting perfectly Obito's hand to the point he was stopped to a rock; all this shows incredible fast reactions and hand speed *(41)**(42)**(43)**(44)*. Sharingan Kakashi was also able to casually move while dodging the Juubi's Mokuton Sashiki no jutsu that was decimating the Shinobi Alliance's troops, the attacks were too fast and too many for Neji to even rotate with his Hakkesho Kaiten but Kakashi was fast and agile enough to run unscated between them, even having time to go and save the defenseless Sakura *(45)*.


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## Mercurial (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No he have , Hiraishin Mawashi for example , but he isn't using clone feinst because FTG are much better , delet FTG and his fighting style will be completely different .
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah thanks to Choza , Choji and Akimichi fodders , he said himself that he can't do it without some external aid .



That's good use of clones. But not for fooling anyone. 

For God's sake. Kakashi feinted Pain before Choza and Choji arrived... reread the manga please.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

*@Raikiri*

All your examples are about weakened KCM Naruto who is only at Base Bee level , himself slower than base Sasuke (he suited when he has seen his Shunshin) . Kakashi sure is fast , but not as fast as V1 Raikage or KCM Naruto with all his strengh and speed .


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## Hachibi (Nov 9, 2015)

I still don't see what Ei has to do with this


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

> That's good use of clones. But not for fooling anyone.
> 
> For God's sake. Kakashi feinted Pain before Choza and Choji arrived... reread the manga please.


Jiraya used clones to feint Pain and succeed .
Madara use clone to feint Gokage , he succeed .
itachi used clone to feint Kabuto and he succeed .
Naruto used clones feint against numerous  oppenent and succeed (1tail Shukaku , Neji , Kakuzu , Pain , Kaguya ...) .

C/C : All smart people can use clones to feint and succeed , and Minato is extremely smart so ...


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato has literally zero clone or ninjutsu feats outside of rasengans, sealing jutsu, and FTG.

Saying otherwise is fanboy fanfiction.

He's faster than Kakashi, just like Raikage was faster than Sasuke. But oh wait, the sharingan was good enough that Sasuke could hang until he went V2. 

Minato's normal speed is nowhere near V2 A, this is also fanfiction, he needs FTG to hang with the raikage. Reflexes aren't footspeed.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Said by Gai fan


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And so you agree to accept two contradictory statements in one sentence
> 
> Raikage is fighting Taka with his RCM and they keep up with him yet he is in base and he is in base and will activate RCM to overwhelm them





hbcaptain said:


> I found another translation (in french) , and it's not saying the same thing of that translation .



Sorry buddy. I can't be bothered to argue with you when your whole stance is based on you not being able to properly understand the scan, and you denying that it's legit when we have a translator AND VIZ. Why in the world would I take your french translation (based on nothing but your word by the way) over VIZ AND JAPANESE?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Said by Gai fan



I am a fan of many characters, even Minato.

But you're kidding yourself if you think he can hang ninjutsu wise against Kakashi. Literally has just rasengan/ or variants and his other one is restricted.


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## Santoryu (Nov 9, 2015)

I think Kakashi has demonstrated throughout the manga that he is a speedster. Obito's statement just reinforces this. Not saying he's as fast as Minato, but he's definitely comparable to guys like Itachi. Minato is faster, but the sharingan improves one's reactionary effectiveness dramatically, even when faced against faster opponents. It's a close fight, but based on what Kakashi showcased in the war, I'd be inclined to give him the win, but Minato could potentially win. In all fairness Kakashi had more screen time.

Correct me if  I'm wrong, but wasn't Minato's sage jutsu noted to be average? Anyway I have no doubt that Minato has a lot of decent elemental jutsu that was never revealed, but if we start attributing them to him for this battle-we could do the same to Kakashi; one could say Kakashi could have copied Kakuzu's body enhancing technique for instance.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

So you have no problem with the absurdity of that statement , it contradicts itself lol .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Xillia said:


> I think Kakashi has demonstrated throughout the manga that he is a speedster. Obito's statement just reinforces this. Not saying he's as fast as Minato, but he's definitely comparable to guys like Itachi. Minato is faster, but the sharingan improves one's reactionary effectiveness dramatically, even when faced against faster opponents. It's a close fight, but based on what Kakashi showcased in the war, I'd be inclined to give him the win, but Minato could potentially win. In all fairness Kakashi had more screen time.
> 
> Correct me if  I'm wrong, but wasn't Minato's sage jutsu noted to be average? Anyway I have no doubt that Minato has a lot of decent elemental jutsu that was never revealed, but if we start attributing them to him for this battle-we could do the same to Kakashi; one could say Kakashi could have copied Kakuzu's body enhancing technique for instance.



Pretty much this, you can't take away a non-uchiha's trump card and have them fight against an uchiha/or sharingan, they would get wrecked. Taking away FTG is like taking away Mokuton or Jinton


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## Santoryu (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So you have no problem with the absurdity of that statement , it contradicts itself lol .



what.

I'm saying we can't start giving Minato jutsu that was never revealed. We can't do that for Kakashi either.


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## Hachibi (Nov 9, 2015)

Xillia said:


> what.
> 
> I'm saying we can't start giving Minato jutsu that was never revealed. We can't do that for Kakashi either.



He's talking about the first page about the C statement


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## Santoryu (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh my bad.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> I am a fan of many characters, even Minato.
> 
> But you're kidding yourself if you think he can hang ninjutsu wise against Kakashi. Literally has just rasengan/ or variants and his other one is restricted.


You know that characters change their fighting style if they gain or lose their abilities/Jutsus .
You think that Minato will just charge stupidly on Kakashi while he can use KB , sorry but saying the opposite is just saying that Minato one of the biggest foolish and stupid characters of the manga while he is one of the smartest (if not the smartest) . 
Minato use FTG because it's better than the standart clone feint that's all .

You think that Kakashi will hirt Minato with...water dragon , earth shield lol , sorry but 1000 useless Jutsu aren't working against him , and that kind of Jutsu means nothing to a Hokage , he doesn't need S/T ninjutsu to counter it , and what the databook is saying about Minato :


*Spoiler*: __ 



Minato learned from Jiraiya and taught to Kakashi. Uncommonly talented, he was instated Hokage at a young age. *A faculty to come up with original jutsu one after another,* a strong-willed heart brimming with kindness; one could almost gaze upon the village's bright future through Minato. Until Kyuubi attacked it. Minato divided Kyuubi's power and entrusted a part of it to Naruto, the son he'd had in the meantime with Uzumaki Kushina. What is it his eyes have spotted in his very own child?




Even w/o FTG , Minato is still much stronger than Kakashi w/o Kamui who is pissed off against a sannin who isn't even serious .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

He changes his fighting style?

Literally FTG is his his style. Lmao.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> *Spoiler*: _wall of text no jutsu_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you do heavy, detailed feat comparisons like this, you open up the door for people to post this gif:



You don't want them to start doing that, now do you?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

please read well my post , his fighting style is FTG because FTG combos>>>>>>Clones combos and he is even combining the two of them (example : Hiraishin Mawashi) . Restrict FTG , and he will use what he had , KB feints used smartly , as any clone user in the manga (I have alreadylisted the clone users in my previious posts) .

Anyone can use clone feints , even someone as fool as Naruto use it , saying that Minato will charge stupily is just shitting on his smartness and cleverness , while he is in the highest category .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

You write some pretty good fanfiction.

Post a panel of Minato displaying clone use anywhere near Kakashi's level or just stop. 

Naruto isn't a fool, and he used clones for the entire manga, Just stop.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Well , show me in the manga when Minato fought w/o FTG , then we will be ok .


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

He can't, because Minato has Hiraishin in the manga. His point was regarding Minato without Hiraishin.

edit: bamflashed


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Post a panel when Minato fought with FTG restricted , as I said :
FTG combos>>>>>>>>clones combo .
Minato hasn't to be smart to choose between the two combos .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Why would he not use it? I am so confused right now. I need to stop before I lose IQ

There is no choice, he hasn't shown anything remotely close to good clone feats I can't even recall him using one.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato isn't using clone feints while FTG is restricted=====>Minato is the dumbest character in the manga , are you aware on what are you saying or just blablating nonsens like , Minato charging like a fool on Kakashi without any strategy lol .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Nobody in the manga would...and nobody said Minato was a fool...?

I need to stop now. If you can't see Minato's entire style is based on his speed then there is something wrong with you, what is he going to die if he doesn't rush Kakashi?

He has no long ranged jutsu worth writing home about.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Actualy you are saying that Minato will just charge on Kakashi and that<=>Minato is a fool , you can't change that . Kakashi managed to feint Pain because he is smarter , and he is not smarter than Minato .

Just look at Tobirama he rarely use Suiton , 90% of his attacks are FTG based , but still he used Suiton Senbons when he couldn't use FTG . It's the same for Minato , *all clones users use clone feints it's a fact , only FTG users deserve to that because FTG combos are at a whole another level *, you think that Tobirama will not use clone feints if he can't you think that he is dumb ,? Same goes for Minato .

If he has a Jutsu , he will use it the best way possible because he is naturaly talented/gifted and extremely smart , Minato will not be feinted like Pain because he is simply much smarter . It's not a coincidence that Raikage said that no one ever surpass him , same goes for Kakashi , Jiraya ,....

Add the fact that Minato is much faster and has much more stamina , then he is simply stronger even w/o FTG .

Another example just look at War Kakashi , he isn't using clones feinst anymore , why simply because Kamui combos and feints are much better since he mastered his MS .


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

But he hasn't used another jutsu.

Sigh..Tobirama has been using suiton since he was an edo in part 1, it was to be expected. So was Kakashi.

THEY HAVE ACTUAL FEATS.

Minato hasn't used jack shit outside of his speed and rasengan. You're writing a fanfic fight.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Dog.

Kawarimi is an academy ranked jutsu.

Minato is the Hokage.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Last time I checked those aren't lightning clones, water clones or shadow clones. 

You guys need to stop trying to make Minato into some ninjutsu master, he was known for his speed and sealing jutsu.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

KB+speed+Rasengan are more than enough to beat 3TS Kakashi .


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## Kyu (Nov 9, 2015)

> TBH Minato's speed feats don't go outside Hirashin.




-Beat Hokage 1-3 to the battlefield with time to spare

-Flickered past a beast that gave a Sage trouble_ at half power_

-Intercepted a genetically enhanced 3T sharingan user before he could finish a single swing


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 9, 2015)

Speed compared to kcm naruto and rcm raikage i.imgur.com/m45OwVi.jpg (the speed at which kcm naruto and rcm raikage are clashing is being compared to minatos base speed. Kakashi aint keeping up with this).

Why does minato need lists of jutsu when his speed alone wrecks the crap out of kakashi. Add multiple shadow clones and minatos greatly superior stamina and this isnt even a fight. 

If we really wanna go there, minato uses clones as confusion, enters sm and then approaches kakashi and destroys and rapes him with frog kata and enhanced strength. Aint no clone feats saving kakashi because minato will sense everything around him.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> You guys need to stop trying to make Minato into some ninjutsu master, he was known for his speed and sealing jutsu.



I don't know how using the substitution technique with a shadow clone is an indication of "ninjutsu mastery."

Minato creates a clone and swaps places with it using an E-Rank jutsu. Actually, the effectiveness of a clone feint is a matter of speed.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 9, 2015)

Kakashi wins because he is my favorite character, no other explanation is necessary.


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## Yoko (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato isn't beating Kakashi without FTG.  He holds a small speed advantage that will largely be nullified by Sharingan precognition (i.e. Sasuke vs. Raikage), and Kakashi's base arsenal is several fold more diverse and versatile, and will provide necessary pressure for him to eventually pull off a Doton + KB feint for the win.  Sage Mode is a non issue when both Kakashi and Minato himself agreed that the latter was not proficient at it to the extent it was impractical in battle.

[_This is a joke_] When we factor in Kakashi's Truthseeker-speed-level kunai hurling skills, the odds tilt even more in his favor.  [_/This is a joke_.]


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Yoko said:


> Minato isn't beating Kakashi without FTG.  He holds a small speed advantage that will largely be nullified by Sharingan precognition (i.e. Sasuke vs. Raikage), and Kakashi's base arsenal is several fold more diverse and versatile, and will provide necessary pressure for him to eventually pull off a Doton + KB feint for the win.  Sage Mode is a non issue when both Kakashi and Minato himself agreed that the latter was not proficient at it to the extent it was impractical in battle.



Thank god someone sane.

Minato's fast but without FTG he isn't blitzing Kakashi 1v1. And his SM mastery is nothing compared to Naruto's or even Jiraiya's whom was also inferior to Naruto's SM.

Sasuke was nowhere near as fast as the Raikage and he easily avoided his blow and touched him with a chidori.


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## Bonly (Nov 9, 2015)

I'd go with Minato more times then not, he has Katons,Futons,and Raitons to help him deal with some of Kakashi's elemental jutsu as well as deal some damage of his own and he should be fast enough to avoid/tank most of Kakashi's ranged jutsu. With clones for some extra support and possible feinting plays, some of the fuinjutsu Kushina taught him, his sensing which likely helped him react to Obito's blindside with a kunai headshot after dealing with Kurama to help him detect clones and some elemental jutsu along with his battle smarts has me favoring Minato after a long battle


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## thechickensage (Nov 9, 2015)

One thing to think about is that:

It's not like Minato's ONLY technique is the rasengan.  He simply prefers using FTG with a 1-handed technique, and the rasengan is perfect.

And the only reason he doesn't use sage mode is because he prefers blinking around the place.  It's mainly that it doesn't mesh well with FTG...he clearly went into sage mode in an instant as an edo tensei.  Meaning if he knew Hiraishin were unusable for some reason (anti-seal jutsu in the area or something), then OF COURSE he would use SM....

He has mastered a wide variety of jutsu, but in the FEW PANELS we've seen him in, Kishimoto wanted Minato to show off hiraishin.   He was a genius-level Hokage.  Of course he can use high level jutsus as well as Kakashi....

It's not like he's crippled without FTG, bwua hahaha.  And it's not like his use of clones is impaired.

SO:

*Diverse jutsu mastery* + *SAGE MODE*  (<------of course he would use it when he won't be FTG-ing around)


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 9, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> One thing to think about is that:
> 
> It's not like Minato's ONLY technique is the rasengan.  He simply prefers using FTG with a 1-handed technique, and the rasengan is perfect.
> 
> ...



1. I don't know about high-level elemental jutsu, at best he's probably only good with a single element and even that we don't know what level he is at. Depending on what his affinity is, he'd be able to use a high-level jutsu of that caliber but that's anyone's guess. He hasn't really shown an elemental jutsu.

2. He stated that he was horrible at SM, I doubt he'll be able to use it as freely as you guys say he would. He needed a few shinobi covering him.

FTG basically made him untouchable and it's his go to jutsu, I think that speaks for itself. He falls down just as much as Kakashi would if he lost the sharingan. Minato without FTG isn't the yellow flash anymore.


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## thechickensage (Nov 9, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> 1. I don't know about high-level elemental jutsu, at best he's probably only good with a single element and even that we don't know what level he is at. Depending on what his affinity is, he'd be able to use a high-level jutsu of that caliber but that's anyone's guess. He hasn't really shown an elemental jutsu.



yeah,  because kakashi had like 12x the pagecount.  Kishi just wanted to show off how cool Hiraishin is while Minato was present



Sadzuki said:


> 2. He stated that he was horrible at SM, I doubt he'll be able to use it as freely as you guys say he would. He needed a few shinobi covering him.


He said how horrible he is at it, but he also puts himself down quite a bit.  Also: 

1.  He's a perfect sage, meaning no transformation of his face into frog.  This means he was superior to Jiraiya in balancing natural energy
2.  He activated SM in on command when facing Juubidara
3.  He doesn't use SM because he uses FTG.  If it's restricted, then why would he not use SM.  

So clearly he was being hard on himself, when in reality he can use SM QUITE freely



Sadzuki said:


> FTG basically made him untouchable and it's his go to jutsu, I think that speaks for itself. He falls down just as much as Kakashi would if he lost the sharingan. Minato without FTG isn't the yellow flash anymore.


He has 3 elements (Fire, wind, lightning), and given that he was hailed as a genius beyond compare, it makes no sense to assume he's less than a master at each of those

and he has yin/yang release and all his sealing jutsu

AND he's a sensor


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 9, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> yeah,  because kakashi had like 12x the pagecount.  Kishi just wanted to show off how cool Hiraishin is while Minato was present
> 
> He has 3 elements (Fire, wind, lightning), and given that he was hailed as a genius beyond compare, it makes no sense to assume he's less than a master at each of those
> 
> and he has yin/yang release and all his sealing jutsu


Kakashi has a legitimate access to nearly every elemental technique he has seen and one from every element. He's also shown 3/5 elements without any problems, I don't see a problem backing the claim that Kakashi > Minato in terms of elemental ninjutsu, because well, he's got feats while Minato doesn't have a single feat whatsoever.



> He said how horrible he is at it, but he also puts himself down quite a bit.  Also:
> 
> 1.  He's a perfect sage, meaning no transformation of his face into frog
> 2.  He activated SM in a split second on command
> ...


He was standing around gathering chakra, there was nothing about a split-second activation, they were all basically standing around. That may be the case but he said he was horrible with it, we don't know if he can even use sage sensing or frog katas.


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## Kyu (Nov 9, 2015)

> He has mastered a wide variety of jutsu, but in the FEW PANELS we've seen him in,



No one is denying he had a slew of techniques he's never bothered showing, we just don't what those jutsu were other than Barrier ninjutsu. 

Activating Sage Mode is OOC, but the momentary speed boost will undoubtedly turn the tables if used at a relatively close distance.

Still I'm going with Kakashi considering Minato's reluctance at deviating from his fighting style of constant motion. Lightning Clone feints probably ends this.


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## thechickensage (Nov 9, 2015)

Sage mode is out of character only because his typical fighting style is to use FTG.  

If he knows he won't be using FTG, why wouldn't he use SM?  He's a perfect sage and can activate it very quickly


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2015)

thechickensage said:
			
		

> 2. He activated SM in a split second on command


He was actually gathering senjutsu for a good while prior to activation.


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## thechickensage (Nov 9, 2015)

I always thought he meant "too long considering my combat style" (constant movement)

he's shown using it  quickly vs juubidara

(but don't look at the page afterwards, it's embarrassing for Minato)

but!  you do admit that he is a perfect sage (no froggy features)?


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## Kyu (Nov 9, 2015)

> If he knows he won't be using FTG, why wouldn't he use SM? He's a perfect sage and can activate it very quickly



He'll be flickering around avoiding shit.

Kakashi isn't dumb, he'll keep his former teacher mobile. He's already aware senjutsu is in Minato's back pocket.


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## ARGUS (Nov 9, 2015)

Minato still wins this. 

 -- While its true that he cant evade kamui now. that still isnt an issue.

 -- Minato can create multiple shadow clones and have them scatter around to reduce  the probability of the original getting caught  and help him shunshin to kakashi while he's focusing on one of them. Kakashi gets vastly outnumbered as minato slams a rasengan in his chest before any kamui GG occurs. 

 -- With clones acting as distractions. kakashi cant waste his kamui either not when he cant distinguish them, and when itlll only deplete his chakra even more. one of the minatos can just jump up and use FCD to toss a frog in his kakashis head and call it a day. 

 -- going CQC against minato is seriously stupid given how much faster minato really is compared to kakashi and how much advantage he has in numbers that will just alllow him to overwhelm him even easier.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

Kyu said:


> He'll be flickering around avoiding shit.
> 
> Kakashi isn't dumb, he'll keep his former teacher mobile. He's already aware senjutsu is in Minato's back pocket.



Yeah, basically how I see it 

He's far too limited, he just hasn't shown anything on panel that would definitely certify him to that level. At best he has 1 legit element and his speed isn't going to be an issue without FTG.


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## Kyu (Nov 10, 2015)

> At best he has 1 legit element



_Average_ jonin typically have 2 chakra natures mastered. Minato was Konoha's most powerful/gifted jonin during the third war.

He's got 2 mastered at a bare minimum.



> and his speed isn't going to be an issue without FTG.


His speed is formidable, just not enough to blitz Kakashi at 30m.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> I always thought he meant "too long considering my combat style" (constant movement)
> 
> he's shown using it  quickly vs juubidara
> 
> ...



He didn't use it quickly. 
Like Kai pointed out, he was gathering nature energy for a while, because he had the luxury to do so. In a 1on1 battle, he can't.
Besides, he already admitted that he can't maintain it for long(only lasted for an attack) and he didn't use it in actual combat before.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

He threw a kunai thirty meters and _then_ entered sage mode. You cannot move while gathering natural energy.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 10, 2015)

Lmao he enters SM in a fraction of a second. He threw a kunai and entered it before Kamui could warp someone. 

Kamui is restricted, 3-toma Kakashi wouldn't even be able to handle SM Naruto, now we're talking about SM Minato?

It's a lock.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 10, 2015)

You canmot move and then gather nature energy. As clearly shown and depicted in both the manga and anime, Minato threw that kunai before entering sage mode. He entered sage mode immediately after throwing that kunai (movement). Meaning sage mode was entered at that one moment after throwing the kunai.

If he was gathering nature energy and threw that kunai,then he would have lost he nature energy he gathered as it requires perfect stillness. Not to mention minatos body language doesnt indicate that he was gathering nature energy, when jiraya and hashriama do it, they clap their hands together and concentrate. When naruto does it, he likes to sit down and close his eyes, or at times he stands still with his eyes closed as he concentrates. Minato was listening to madaras story, with his eyes opened and completely focused on madara and obito. Unlikely that he was gathering senjutsu at that time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He threw a kunai thirty meters and _then_ entered sage mode. You cannot move while gathering natural energy.



He was doing it prior to that, obviously. 

He did nothing but stood there from here : [1]
to here : [1]

So he took action when he gathered enough nature energy to be able to convert into sage chakra.

I mean come on, he said so himself :



Kai said:


> He was actually gathering senjutsu for a good while prior to activation.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

You saw with Naruto, though. You think if he fell off of that board, he'd have activated Sage Mode to save himself? You have to sit still until you become a Sage. Let's be real lol. Minato wasn't gathering natural energy during those pages. If somebody is gathering natural energy, we know about it. They make a seal.

It was probably just plot. I don't actually expect Minato to randomly go SM against Kakashi here if he's barely practiced it in combat.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

You can either discard Minato's statement completely, and assume he can go SM instantly.

Or, you can take his statement at face value and make sense out of what you have seen, and assume he was gathering nature energy up until the point he went sage mode.

I'm going with the latter, as it makes sense and the other doesn't. Simple as that.


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## Yoko (Nov 10, 2015)

If we're going to use outlier kunai feats for Minato, then do the same for Kakashi.  Minato outsped Kamui activation (which was _clearly_ part of a team collaboration, but let's ignore that here) with a kunai toss? That's great - Kakashi reactively tossed a kunai that caught up with a Truthseeker which required double Kamui to dodge.  No, I don't _actually_ believe these characters have Kamui / double-Kamui level kunai throws, but if you're going to try throwing that sort of thing around, at least be consistent about it.

Same goes for the Sage Mode point - Kakashi pointed out that Minato's Sage Mode was subpar and Minato readily agreed, elaborating that he never bothered using it in combat due to impracticality.  The only explanation is that Minato was gathering it during the moments he was not moving, which aligns with what he later said about how bad he was at it.  Sage Mode is to Minato as Izanami is to Itachi - they aren't usable or practical in the majority of scenarios the characters are placed in.

The whole elemental discussion also lacks basis.  We have no indication as to what Minato's proficiency with his listed elements is.  We can't go around arbitrarily giving him A-ranked Futons just because the wheel said he can use Futon.  Kakashi's elemental wheel is completely filled out and yet he felt unqualified to teach Naruto about Futon, implying that despite being capable of it, he was utterly horrid at it, which explains why we never saw him fire off a Futon in the entirety of the manga.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

As always people ignoring the fact that Minato is the one pressuring Kakashi not the opposit , he is much faster than him and can use much more Jutsu to to his great charka reserve , his Shunshin is so fast that Obito coudn't even move his hand before he can catch his son in the opposit way .


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> As always people ignoring the fact that Minato is the one pressuring Kakashi not the opposit , he is much faster than him and can use much more Jutsu to to his great charka reserve , his Shunshin is so fast that Obito coudn't even move his hand before he can catch his son in the opposit way .



Still trying to figure out how Minato is faster than Kakashi, War Arc Kakashi is in the same tier as him. FTG is the only method to have an advantage over Kakashi. Kakashi still has the Sharingan precog to help him in the scenario.


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## Yoko (Nov 10, 2015)

FTG-less Minato isn't "much faster" than Kakashi.  At best, he's marginally faster and that advantage is largely nullified by Sharingan precognition.  We have seen Sharingan precog close the gap between Sasuke and the Raikage, and that will likely be the case here.

Kakashi had a Raikiri aimed at adult Obito's skull before the latter could even react and Obito has outright praised his speed in the past.  Kakashi is not slow.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Kakashi's Shunshin is so fast that Obito can't even let move his hand : .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

Kakashi and Obito seemed to be more or less equal speed wise. I don't think Minato would have any decisive advantage either.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Minato>>Obito if you restrict FTG , Kamui and Gumbai .


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato>>Obito if you restrict FTG , Kamui and Gumbai .



Yeah, ugh, no.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Then prove it , by feats , Minato is overwhelming him without Kamui .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato>>Obito if you restrict FTG , Kamui and Gumbai .



Not so sure about Minato but we know that Kakashi is.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Then prove it , by feats , Minato is overwhelming him without Kamui .



Was there ever an instance where both Kamui and FTG were restricted? I don't think so. FTG was needed to fight against Obito, FTG will be needed to fight against Kakashi.

Also, the burden of proof is on you, I'm not saying Minato > Kakashi, I'm saying the speed is equal enough where it wouldn't impact the outcome. You are the one asserting that he's faster than Obito and I'm telling you that it's wrong.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

No , the manga has shown later that it was Obito's plot (so that he pierce Madara's forbiden Jutsu putted on his heart) . Basically : Obito>=Kakashi w/o Kamui , Obito wasn't even using his Gumbai .


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## Yoko (Nov 10, 2015)

I'm totally fine with Minato being faster than most characters, including Kakashi, due to all the speed hype he has.  What I'm _not_ buying is him being able to casually blitz 3T users (Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke) who are all fast in their own right.  He'd need V2 Raikage level speed to pull that off, and he just doesn't have that without FTG.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

FTG was needed to counter Obito's Kamui , because Minato can easily kill him with his speed and reflexes .


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## Yoko (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No , the manga has shown later that it was Obito's plot (so that he pierce Madara's forbiden Jutsu putted on his heart) . Basically : Obito>=Kakashi w/o Kamui , Obito wasn't even using his Gumbai .



Pretty sure getting pierced in the skull wasn't part of Obito's plans.  The match would have ended then and there.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No , the manga has shown later that it was Obito's plot (so that he pierce Madara's forbiden Jutsu putted on his heart) . Basically : Obito>=Kakashi w/o Kamui , Obito wasn't even using his Gumbai .


Minato doesn't have an overwhelming speed advantage on either of them where it would make a difference in the outcome. I'd say they are all equal footing without their amps, Minato, Itachi, Kakashi, Raikage and Obito just in their base should equal each other, or well at the very least the outcome won't be determined by any speed advantage/disadvantage.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Yoko said:


> I'm totally fine with Minato being faster than most characters, including Kakashi, due to all the speed hype he has.  What I'm _not_ buying is him being able to casually blitz 3T users (Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke) who are all fast in their own right.  He'd need V2 Raikage level speed to pull that off, and his base speed isn't there.


Since we have no evidence , I accept that point of view , but Minato isn't limitted to a linear fighting style , if he combine his speed , intelligence , smartness and Fuinjutsu/Ninjutsu , he is sure notably above someone of Kakashi's level .
You are actually saying that the speed isn't a factor in that fight , but it's pretty wrong since he can combine it with his other Jutsu , that's why he is above Kakashi .


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Since we have no evidence , I accept that point of view , but Minato isn't limitted to a linear fighting style , if he combine his speed , intelligence , smartness and Fuinjutsu/Ninjutsu , *he is sure notably above someone of Kakashi's level* .



The part in bold won't happen without FTG or Kyuubi powers. You don't have the feats to establish that claim.


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## Yoko (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Since we have no evidence , I accept that point of view , but Minato isn't limitted to a linear fighting style , if he combine his speed , intelligence , smartness and Fuinjutsu/Ninjutsu , he is sure notably above someone of Kakashi's level .



You're saying this as if Kakashi doesn't have intelligence feats or "smartness" (the man uses tactics in each of his fights and went on to be praised by the God of the Naruto-verse himself for his intelligence) or a Ninjutsu arsenal several fold more versatile than Minato's.



> You are actually saying that the speed isn't a factor in that fight , but it's pretty wrong since he can combine it with his other Jutsu , that's why he is above Kakashi .



Speed isn't a factor in this fight because Kakashi has 3T Sharingan.  If he didn't I could agree with speed being a small factor.  With precognition, the tiny (or possibly nonexistent) speed advantage Minato might have had is completely mitigated. 

Minato has no other jutsu.  He's limited to Rasengan, which is basically a Taijutsu move.  He has no known ranged techniques.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

It's easy to say that since Minato is always using* FTG combos because it's much more effetive than any standart fighting style (clones feints ,...)* .

And basically : Minato w/o FTG=Kakashi+much more speed+much more stamina ,


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It's easy to say that since Minato is always using FTG combos because it's much more effetive than any standart fighting style (clones feints ,...) .
> 
> *And basically : Minato w/o FTG=Kakashi+much more speed+much more stamina ,*



Minato lacks feats of ninjutsu, kinjutsu, taijutsu, the speed advantage is negligible and Kakashi won't have to worry about stamina issues since Kamui is restricted. The rasengan is something Kakashi has intimate knowledge and Kakashi could easily use a clone feint and Kakashi's strategy and analysis is just as good.

Kakashi has a better arsenal than Minato, if you are going arbritarily give him elemental ninjutsu then Kakashi can literally use any elemental jutsu that Kakuzu or anyone he's faced has used against him, so by default he'll have a stronger skill set.


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## Yoko (Nov 10, 2015)

That's the problem with your entire analysis - you're assuming Minato has "much more speed" than Kakashi when that isn't the case at all without FTG.  Minato's base speed isn't V2 Raikage level, which is what he'd need to blitz a speedy 3T user (and said 3T user still mentally reacted - just not physically).


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

Kakashi takes this, he's much more versatile than Minato. Minato has to rely on kunai and Rasengan while Kakashi has an array of techniques. Kakashi can make use of Doton, Suiton and Raiton. Kakashi's simply packing more power. Kakashi can use Raiju Tsuiga and Suiton techniques to keep Minato at bay as well as utilising Doton to hide from Minato and defend himself from attacks. Minato's fast but he's not blessed in terms of Jutsu, he's not blitzing Kakashi, especially when Kakashi can make use of Raiton/Kage Bunshin to watch his six.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Yoko said:


> You're saying this as if Kakashi doesn't have intelligence feats or "smartness" (the man uses tactics in each of his fights and went on to be praised by the God of the Naruto-verse himself for his intelligence) or a Ninjutsu arsenal several fold more versatile than Minato's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So water dragon , and earth wall are a factors against Minato lol... And speed isn't . Just lol .
Obito avoided certain death against Minato without FTG if you restrict Kamui , Sharingan or not it doesn"t matter :


Minato=speed+KB+smartess+great chakra quantity+Fuinjutsu+barriers+rasengan
Kakashi=KB+smatrness+1000 useless Jutsu like Doton wall+Raikiri

And one more thing , *Minato was creating oroginal Jutsu one after another .*


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

In that shit assessment of the 1,000 useless jutsu are all of Kakuzu's elemental techniques, just FYI. Because you know it's not like Gian wouldn't help or Atsugai for that matter


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Show me when Kakashi showed elementary Jutsu at the same level of Kakuzu apart from Raikiri , then we can talk , plus Kakashi was avoiding all Kakuzu's 5 masks ninjutsu and saing Team 10 at the same time , Minato just have to avoid Kakashi's and Shunshin to kill him in Taijutsu battle (using clone feints if needed) .


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Show me when Kakashi showed elementary Jutsu at the same level of Kakuzu apart from Raikiri , then we can talk , plus Kakashi was avoiding all Kakuzu's 5 masks ninjutsu and saing Team 10 at the same time , Minato just have to avoid Kakashi's and Shunshin to kill him in Taijutsu battle (using clone feints if needed) .



You fucken hypocritical shit, show any elemental techniques that Minato used.

Fuck outta here with that bullshit.


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So water dragon , and earth wall are a factors against Minato lol... And speed isn't . Just lol .



They don't affect much by themselves but when combined they pressure Minato and keep him at bay, Minato has to get close to do damage. Speed is a factor but I wouldn't say that Minato's speed alone leads him to win. Minato could still win but I give it to Kakashi more times than not.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Well , it's pretty an evidence that Minato masters many elementar Jutsu since he created a lot of original Jutsu , but we will say that he hasn't , he will simply dodge them using his reflexes combined with his super fast Shunshin , Kakashi performed well against Hidan and Kakuzu that well . *Plus he can create barriers to easily hold such weak Jutsu but I doubt he will need to .*

Just Minato's incredibly fast Kunais will pressure Kakashi ad even hurt him (and instantly kill him without Sharingan) .


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Well , it's pretty an evidence that Minato masters many elementar Jutsu since he created a lot of original Jutsu , but we will say that he hasn't , he will simply dodge them using his reflexes combined with his super fast Shunshin , Kakashi performed well against Hidan and Kakuzu that well . *Plus he can create barriers to easily hold such weak Jutsu but I doubt he will need to .*


I want manga pages where he used elemental techniques that come close to the same versatility and strength that Kakashi has shown. 

Otherwise, I'll take your concession now.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Minat can instantly creat barriers that can hold Kurama's physical attacks and Hiruzen's elementary Jutsu and Enma , comopared to that Kakashi's ninjutsu is quite weak , just lost of chakra and stamina his weak point .


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Well , it's pretty an evidence that Minato masters many elementar Jutsu since he created a lot of original Jutsu , but we will say that he hasn't , he will simply dodge them using his reflexes combined with his super fast Shunshin , Kakashi performed well against Hidan and Kakuzu that well . *Plus he can create barriers to easily hold such weak Jutsu but I doubt he will need to .*
> 
> Just Minato's incredibly fast Kunais will pressure Kakashi ad even hurt him (and instantly kill him without Sharingan) .



But we have no idea what they are so we cannot include them here, if we had a decent idea then it would be different. For example, if it was Fugaku you could safely assume that he had some basic Katon techniques, with Minato it's different. 

The barrier that Minato used was part of FTG, it's restricted.

As the user Yoko has stated in this thread before, Kakashi's no slouch in terms of kunai throwing speed either..


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minat can instantly creat barriers that can hold Kurama's physical attacks and Hiruzen's elementary Jutsu and Enma , comopared to that Kakashi's ninjutsu is quite weak , just lost of chakra and stamina his weak point .



Barrier was basically due to FTG, do you even the read manga


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## Yoko (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So water dragon , and earth wall are a factors against Minato lol... And speed isn't . Just lol .



Yes, they're factors.  They allow Kakashi to apply ranged pressure.  Just observe Kakuzu vs. Kakashi.  Kakashi was the faster combatant - the databook confirms this, not to mention his possession of a 3T Sharingan.  Yet, thanks to Kakuzu's exploitation of elemental spam, he was able to corner Kakashi despite being slower.

Same idea here.  Individually fired, the jutsu will miss, but when used at the right time, it could provide openings.



> Minato=speed+KB+smartess+great chakra quantity+Fuinjutsu+barriers+rasengan
> Kakashi=KB+smatrness+1000 useless Jutsu like Doton wall+Raikiri



Something like this or this or this aren't useless jutsu.  Even Doton Wall isn't useless - it allowed Kakashi to box in Deva Realm, and if not for chakra disruption, he would have destroyed the body.  It has it's applications. 



> And one more thing , Minato was creating oroginal Jutsu one after another.



Quantify this to something that can be measured in the battledome.  Otherwise, this is just as useless as Kakashi's unknown 1000 jutsu.



> Just Minato's incredibly fast Kunais will pressure Kakashi ad even hurt him (and instantly kill him without Sharingan) .



Kakashi's reactive kunai throwing skills parallel Truthseeker speed.   This will be the reply I will give every time kunai throwing is brought up as a decisive factor in a battle of this level.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

No Iam talking about normal barriers like that Hiruzen and Kurama can't break like the one we have seen in the flash-back .



> But we have no idea what they are so we cannot include them here, if we had a decent idea then it would be different. For example, if it was Fugaku you could safely assume that he had some basic Katon techniques, with Minato it's different.
> 
> As the user Yoko has stated in this thread before, Kakashi's no slouch in terms of kunai throwing speed either..


All Jonin masters at least two affinities , and Minato who is born with natural talent and the Hokage doesn't , I would say just loool .

Yeah , but Minato is by far better , Kakashi will be pressured just by that , if you add super fast Shunshin and striking speed , then he is overwhelmed .



> Something like this or this or this aren't useless jutsu. Even Doton Wall isn't useless - it allowed Kakashi to box in Deva Realm, and if not for chakra disruption, he would have destroyed the body. It has it's applications.


Since when Tendo=Minato


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## Kyu (Nov 10, 2015)

> How many elements does Gai have?



2 - Fire & Lightning



> The problem with your assessment here is that we don't know what his primary element is,


 
His affinities are Fire, Wind, Lightning, along with Yin & Yang release. 

Out of his three nature affinities, we know for certain he's mastered at least two of them, given that is the norm for lesser jonin. Stating he's adept in just 1 is silly.

All I'm saying. I never once suggested he'll suddenly whip out high level elemental ninjutsu nor did I imply they'll serve any purpose in this battle. 



> for instance we know what Kakashi can do, Minato technically would get his shit chopped with Raikiri Wolf.



We shouldn't pretend he's incapable of evading most of Kakashi's elemental jutsu on foot. Lightning Clone trickery is what stops him in his tracks, everything else will keep Minato on the defensive and setup the aforementioned feint.



> He has no feasible defense against it, as fast as he is, he could easily be feinted into an attack.



Most likely the end result.



> He lacks FTG here and while his reaction time is amazing, his body speed can't move at the speed he thinks, which is why his FTG was so amazing.



Agreed.




> Still trying to figure out how Minato is faster than Kakashi, War Arc Kakashi is in the same tier as him. FTG is the only method to have an advantage over Kakashi. Kakashi still has the Sharingan precog to help him in the scenario.





> FTG-less Minato isn't "much faster" than Kakashi. At best, he's marginally faster and that advantage is largely nullified by Sharingan precognition.



He's faster than Tobirama, who is faster than the guy that nearly blitzed SM Naruto.


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No Iam talking about normal barriers like that Hiruzen and Kurama can't break like the one we have seen in the flash-back .
> 
> 
> All Jonin masters at least two affinities , and Minato who is born with natural talent and the Hokage doesn't , I would say just loool .
> ...



The barrier used to keep Hiruzen away while Minato was sealing the Kyubi? That would only be effective if Kakashi was far away, plus it wouldn't be worth it since none of Kakashi's Jutsu would actually hit from that far away. Kakashi's Jutsus are used to provide an opening and pressure Minato, they aren't gonna kill him directly. Why would Minato want to go farther away from Kakashi when his fighting style determines that he _needs_ to get up close?

That doesn't counter anything I've said, I never denied that Minato has Jutsu. Kakashi also has many Jutsus that he hasn't shown, why don't you factor that in the equation too?

He's not overwhelmed just by Shunshin and striking speed, Kakashi's not of his Part 1 incarnation..


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of Minato being able to use multiple different elements, but there's not much evidence to really suggest that he can use multiple elements very effectively. He's a close-range fighter and so it's not entirely silly to think he's only adept in one element. Bee, specifically, is also a close-range fighter and is only adept in Raiton, similar to the Raikages.

 Even Kage Level ninja such as Deidara and Kisame seemed to have been only adept in only one particular element.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Itachі said:


> The barrier used to keep Hiruzen away while Minato was sealing the Kyubi? That would only be effective if Kakashi was far away, plus it wouldn't be worth it since none of Kakashi's Jutsu would actually hit from that far away. Kakashi's Jutsus are used to provide an opening and pressure Minato, they aren't gonna kill him directly. Why would Minato want to go farther away from Kakashi when his fighting style determines that he _needs_ to get up close?
> 
> That doesn't counter anything I've said, I never denied that Minato has Jutsu. Kakashi also has many Jutsus that he hasn't shown, why don't you factor that in the equation too?
> 
> He's not overwhelmed just by Shunshin and striking speed, Kakashi's not of his Part 1 incarnation..


-Why Minato needs to be far away to us barriers , just few handseals and it's done , you are just imagining that kind of limitation .
-Same goes for Minato , clones and Kunais are here to provide openings .
-Minato can easily goes close to Kakashi using his super fast Shunshin before even he can move his hand (as he did against Obito) .

So if each counter the other (I don't agree with that , Minato's Jutsu frenquency is much higher), then Minato has much more stamina , so he wins .


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> -Why Minato needs to be far away to us barriers , just few handseals and it's done , you are just imagining that kind of limitation .
> -Same goes for Minato , clones and Kunais are here to provide openings .
> -Minato can easily goes close to Kakashi using his super fast Shunshin before even he can move his hand (as he did against Obito) .
> 
> So if each counter the other (I don't agree with that , Minato's Jutsu frenquency is much higher), then Minato has much more stamina , so he wins .



Because the barrier he used was large, what's the point of trapping himself in a box with Kakashi? That makes things worse for him.

Agreed.

Again, Kakashi has clones to watch his back and he can still keep Minato pressured and away from him.

Minato's Jutsu frequency? What do you mean by that? Kakashi has been implied to have a thousand Jutsus..


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Minato has clones eigther and he can create even more .



> Because the barrier he used was large, what's the point of trapping himself in a box with Kakashi? That makes things worse for him.


He only need a barrier to annihilate Kakashi's mid-long ninjutsu , he can activate or desactivate it when he wants , but he isn't needing that since he can easily dodge it .


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

Kyu said:


> 2 - Fire & Lightning


Gai explicitly states that he cannot use ninjutsu whatsoever, he's a specialist. Sakumo highlights this aspect of the ninja academy. Minato I feel is essentially the same, he's a specialist, he hasn't shown any elemental techniques remotely close to the level of Kakashi in terms of versatility or strength. The same goes for Tsunade, she's easily a taijutsu specialist. I'd say instead of giving him elemental techniques, Kishi blessed him with FTG, his elemental jutsu is probably as good as his SM, not impractical to use in combat.



> His affinities are Fire, Wind, Lightning, along with Yin & Yang release. Out of his three nature affinities, we know for certain he's mastered at least two of them, given that is the norm for lesser jonin. Stating he's adept in just 1 is silly. All I'm saying. I never once suggested he'll suddenly whip out high level elemental ninjutsu nor did I imply they'll serve any purpose in this battle.


Even if I give him that, we don't know which one it is. I don't think he really mastered any useful elemental techniques whatsoever, he probably has some supporting techniques like some of Kakashi's doton's but that's about it. Kishi really didn't highlight this whatsoever so I can't with sound reasoning give him anything he hasn't really shown a lick of.



> We shouldn't pretend he's incapable of evading most of Kakashi's elemental jutsu on foot. Lightning Clone trickery is what stops him in his tracks, everything else will keep Minato on the defensive and setup the aforementioned feint.


I thought that Raikiri Wolf was pretty unavoidable but yeah, I agree RKB would close the deal.



> He's faster than Tobirama, who is faster than the guy that nearly blitzed SM Naruto.


I thought that was only in relation to his FTG, was it body speed too?


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## Hachibi (Nov 10, 2015)

Minato doesn't have much more stamina than War Kakashi.

Sure, you could argue that Minato has the advantage in stamina because lolSharingan, but the gap being big when Kakashi could fight non-stop until Kyubi recharged him?

Naw


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## Bonly (Nov 10, 2015)

>Says Gai can't use ninjutsu

>Gai is shown using summoning jutsu which is a ninjutsu

Yeah ok. If you're using a statement from a flashback when Gai was a kid did you ever stop to think that Gai just happened to get better as time went on?


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> He only need a barrier to annihilate Kakashi's mid-long ninjutsu , he can activate or desactivate it when he wants , but he isn't needing that since he can easily dodge it .



Are you talking about the barrier that was put up around the Kyubi? That was Kushina's. Minato used another barrier in the war but that's way too large for it to be effective against Kakashi's Jutsu since Kakashi would be inside the barrier too. The only other barrier that he used is an extension of FTG and that's restricted, what barrier are you talking about?



Hachibi said:


> Sure, you could argue that Minato has the advantage in stamina because lolSharingan, but the gap being big when Kakashi could fight non-stop until Kyubi recharged him?



It doesn't really make a different at this point, Kakashi used techniques like Raiden and used Kamui multiple times but still was able to keep up with the Jinchuriki he was battling.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Now Kakashi has an enormous chakra quantity , enough to call him a chosen one who can use Senjutsu :

Sorry but Kakashi is nothing near that Sharingan or not , he proclamed himseld as someone with little chakra quantity in Kakuzu's arc even less than average adult Shinobis .


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## Hachibi (Nov 10, 2015)

Just because you can't/don't use Senjutsu doesn't mean that you have shit chakra.

Kisame is a perfect exemple


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

But he is the shark sage :ignoramus


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

Bonly said:


> >Says Gai can't use ninjutsu
> 
> >Gai is shown using summoning jutsu which is a ninjutsu
> 
> Yeah ok. If you're using a statement from a flashback when Gai was a kid did you ever stop to think that Gai just happened to get better as time went on?



Summoning ninjutsu isn't the same as elemental ninjutsu, the amount of training involved in the latter is astronomical in comparison, so yeah, Gai can't use elemental ninjutsu.


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Minato doesn't have much more stamina than War Kakashi.
> 
> Sure, you could argue that Minato has the advantage in stamina because lolSharingan, but the gap being big when Kakashi could fight non-stop until Kyubi recharged him?
> 
> Naw



And he used Kamui a lot of times, and that obviously drained him most of chakra, since Mangekyo takes much more chakra than the normal Sharingan. Here he will have much more chakra to spend for 3T Sharingan, Raikiri and Raikiri variants, Kage Bunshin and Raiton Kage Bunshin and other ninjutsu, since he won't have to even consider Mangekyo.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Kakashi sad he has little charka quantity , it's canon lol , remember Naruto's training


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## Hachibi (Nov 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But he is the shark sage :ignoramus



:ignoramus



hbcaptain said:


> Kakashi sad he has little charka quantity , it's canon lol , remember Naruto's training



How does "I don't have as much as you(Naruto) do" translate to this?


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## Bonly (Nov 10, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Summoning ninjutsu isn't the same as elemental ninjutsu, the amount of training involved in the latter is astronomical in comparison, so yeah, Gai can't use elemental ninjutsu.



Ninjutsu is ninjutsu, you can't say Gai can't use any when he's done so in the manga and Kishi, the creator himself says that Gai can use two elements in the DB but yeah lets assume that he couldn't work on his skills since he was a kid and go with that statement that's god knows how many years old in the manga timelime. But yeah you know Gai's full capabilities better then Kishi does amiright?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)




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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

you ignore kakashi's use of taxing techniques in the war arc but are completely ready to take that statement at face value without considering the fact that kakashi may have improved..


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

That was in response to a specific training based on shadow clones (during the Wind-Arc) because in comparison to Naruto, Kakashi doesn't have a lot of chakra. 

This has nothing to do with senjutsu training.


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## Hachibi (Nov 10, 2015)

>Said to possess little chakra
>Proceed to spam MS

LolKishi, plus context was talking about TB so.


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## Kyu (Nov 10, 2015)

> I thought that was only in relation to his FTG, was it body speed too?



Yes, Shunshin No Jutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

Kyu said:


> None of the elemental chakra natures are limited to mid-long range.



 Yet most elementally versatile ninja generally use mid-long range jutsu.

 It's funny because the elements Minato uses do not focus particularly on close ranged ninjutsu at all. On the contrary, the best attacks resulting from 2 of those elements are mid-long range ninjutsu. The only one that I could safely assume does involve a range of close range ninjutsu is Raiton yet even Minato isn't praised to be as proficient in it as Kakashi or Sasuke are.


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

Minato isn't even remotely hyped to be a Raiton user on Kakashi or Sasuke's level, and well if we go by feats he has... zero.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Minato isn't even remotely hyped to be a Raiton user on Kakashi or Sasuke's level, and well if we go by feats he has... zero.



 But, but ... he's Minato!


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> But, but ... he's Minato!



He is also probably not only as powerful as a Raiton user as Kakashi and Sasuke, but also as good as Itachi in genjutsu. It was never implied and we never witnessed that, but you can be sure he is. 

Also Jiraiya > Itachi and healthy Orochimaru > Itachi. Just saying.


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## Bonly (Nov 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The only one that I could safely assume does involve a range of close range ninjutsu is Raiton yet even Minato isn't praised to be as proficient in it as Kakashi or Sasuke are.



"The "Wind" element has the strongest offensive power for close and middle ranged fights"

You could safely assume that Futon is good when it comes to close range as well along with Raitons, upon which Minato has both


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## Kyu (Nov 10, 2015)

> It's funny because the elements Minato uses do not focus particularly on close ranged ninjutsu at all.



Wind, Fire & Lightning have all been used at close range is the point. What's generally the case is irrelevant.



> The only one that I could safely assume does involve a range of close range ninjutsu is Raiton yet even Minato isn't praised to be as proficient in it as Kakashi or Sasuke are.



..Umm since when is being hailed as one of the greatest lightning users in the manga a requirement for utilization of close range raiton techniques?


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## ARGUS (Nov 10, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Minato isn't even remotely hyped to be a Raiton user on Kakashi or Sasuke's level, and well if we go by feats he has... zero.



But but minato can do fuutons above the level of FRS, combine them with sealing jutsu and then add a Raiton+fuutons KKG on his rasengan. 
It was hyped that minato was a genius so he can probably do that and the jutsus firepower would be more than a juubidama 

Minato was just nerfed in the war a lot because of plot


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Wind, Fire & Lightning have all been used at close range is the point. What's generally the case is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> ..Umm since when is being hailed as one of the greatest lightning users in the manga a requirement for utilization of close range raiton techniques?



He can even have close or mid range Raiton techniques. Fact is that he has zero feats with that and he isn't even remotely implied to be a Raiton master, so I think it's fair that people think that in a ninjutsu battle against a Raiton master (and an overall elemental master) like Kakashi he is gonna get stomped. As if he is using Katon to challenge Madara or Fuuton to challenge Danzo.


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> But but minato can do fuutons above the level of FRS, combine them with sealing jutsu and then add a Raiton+fuutons KKG on his rasengan.
> It was hyped that minato was a genius so he can probably do that and the jutsus firepower would be more than a juubidama
> 
> Minato was just nerfed in the war a lot because of plot



Yeah, he could also create his own non Sharingan-Susanoo since he had great chakra control and Susanoo is just the user's chakra materialized after all, and he could create his own Kamui since Kamui is a S/T jutsu and he is skille with S/T jutsu. Since he is fast he can also probaly use Hachimon Tonko, it's just that he never bothered.


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## Kyu (Nov 10, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:
			
		

> He can even have close or mid range Raiton techniques. Fact is that he has zero feats with that and he isn't even remotely implied to be a Raiton master, so I think it's fair that people think that in a ninjutsu battle against a Raiton master (and an overall elemental master) like Kakashi he is gonna get stomped. As if he is using Katon to challenge Madara or Fuuton to challenge Danzo.



Ok?

Why are you quoting me?


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 10, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Minato isn't even remotely hyped to be a Raiton user on Kakashi or Sasuke's level, and well if we go by feats he has... zero.



:ignoramus

But he's Minato, the Yellow Flash. He became a kage and he's amazing at FTG so he has to be well-versed in every element to the point where even the top tiers in those elements would be shit level. His genjutsu probably executes faster than Itachi's and hell, he doesn't even need fingers or toes to cast and well where do you think Gai learned his taijutsu, obviously not his dad, Minato was busy teaching him


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