# Is it possible that Minato is the strongest Hokage?



## Senju Leader (May 15, 2013)

I'm not minato wanker usually, but this last chapter opened my eyes so to speak. Minato was so fast that he arrived to the battlefield, set up a S/T time barrier, teleported the Juubi bijuudama, all without anyone seeing him until it was over. I really find hard to imagine that some slow ass  wood would be able to touch him, or some water techs either. Add all this to the fact that if he tags you its over.... I really cannot see him losing to Hashirama, Tobirama etc.

Unless you are in his speed tier, or have S/T you cant beat him.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Not just yet. I think waiting for more chapters is a wist thing to do.

1- he may shows more jutsus.
2- the others may show their power as well.


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## Overhaul (May 15, 2013)




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## ~Gesy~ (May 15, 2013)

Second strongest, I wouldn't put him above the god of shinobi.


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## Euraj (May 15, 2013)

I don't know. I like that raw power isn't totally everything in the manga. Like how all of the firepower Naruto had wasn't the difference maker in the fight against Tobi. Minato is the same way. Being able to throw a nuke at him doesn't matter if he can just leave the battlefield and come back.


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## Arles Celes (May 15, 2013)

He is obviously very fast and Kishi wanted to slap us all with that fact.

However, speed alone doesn't guarantee superiority otherwise Ei would have destroyed Madara especially with all the backup he had.

His power set is simply good against attacks like bijuudama. Obito can also "tank" even a continent destroying bijuudama with his kamui. S/T jutsus have no limit on dealing with such attacks though teleporting big targets seems to take plenty of chakra as Minato was exhausted in the flashback after teporting a single bijuudama and Kurama. And Obito has Hashi's DNA...


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## Closet Pervert (May 15, 2013)

Good points. He probably is too because Hiruzen was stronger than the Senju but seemed to sort of feel inferior towards Minato.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (May 15, 2013)

Yes its possible. 

I welcome it.


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## shintebukuro (May 15, 2013)

Would the strongest arrive first?


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## Doctor Lamperouge (May 15, 2013)

shintebukuro said:


> Would the strongest arrive first?


Maybe, but the fastest would.


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## RBL (May 15, 2013)




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## Toonz (May 15, 2013)

Didn't we have this conversation just couple of months ago ?

No.


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## Milliardo (May 15, 2013)

no because he couldn't even harm hashirama if he wanted to.

we already knew he could teleport biju bombs away so this is really nothing new.


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## Senju Leader (May 15, 2013)

~Gesy~ said:


> Second strongest, I wouldn't put him above the god of shinobi.



Why do you say that? Just because of some nickname that Hashirama got when there was no good ninja around to really challenge him?



Euraj said:


> *I don't know. I like that raw power isn't totally everything in the manga.* Like how all of the firepower Naruto had wasn't the difference maker in the fight against Tobi. Minato is the same way. Being able to throw a nuke at him doesn't matter if he can just leave the battlefield and come back.



I agree. That is what seperates Naruto from dragonball, One Piece, Bleach etc. Just because one character has higher firepower doesnt mean an automatic win



Arles Celes said:


> He is obviously very fast and Kishi wanted to slap us all with that fact.
> 
> *However, speed alone doesn't guarantee superiority otherwise Ei would have destroyed Madara especially with all the backup he had.*
> 
> His power set is simply good against attacks like bijuudama. Obito can also "tank" even a continent destroying bijuudama with his kamui. S/T jutsus have no limit on dealing with such attacks though teleporting big targets seems to take plenty of chakra as Minato was exhausted in the flashback after teporting a single bijuudama and Kurama. And Obito has Hashi's DNA...



The difference between Ei and Minato is a large gap intellegence. also Ei doesnt really use ninjustu and is more of a brawler of sorts. Plus it is already established that Ei speed is below Naruto's and S/T techs.

I understand what are you saying about his power set, but my point is Minato is so fast you cannot even see him using his techniques until it is all over.


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## sinjin long (May 15, 2013)

well it all depends on how you define "strongest"-

is it who has more raw power and nuke a bigger area?

is it if you lined up the same 100 opponents against each of them who would defeat more?

is it 1 vs 1 who would win in the end?


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## ~Gesy~ (May 15, 2013)

Closet Pervert said:


> Good points. He probably is too because Hiruzen was stronger than the Senju but seemed to sort of feel inferior towards Minato.



The only reason I don't put him above Hiruzen is because the 3rd come off as an old man that just want to sleep. Too many times has he wished Minato was there to pick up the slack.


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## Arles Celes (May 15, 2013)

Senju Leader said:


> Why do you say that? Just because of some nickname that Hashirama got when there was no good ninja around to really challenge him?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato's real strength indeed comes from his intelligence and Kishi can either dumb down him or make the villains in question smarter than we expected. Since he needs tags to teleport and someone like Madara may be knowledgeable with that due to dealing with similar s/t user(Tobirama), Obito knowing all about it too, and Juubi don't giving damn due to its sheer power.

Seriously using Hiraishin depends wholly on how smart Kishi decides to make for this fight and what counters he may give to the villains(including possibly some new moves that may be the worst nightmare for Minato's set). The fact that it seems pretty much given that Naruto and Sasuke will gets most of the glory seems to put Minato as a support guy while the main guys gets most of the glory. And maybe Hashi.

On paper Naruto also should be a speed monster and yet that hardly did matter when dealing with both Madara and Obito. Whether Kishi is handicapping Naruto's speed somehow or whether Madara's and Obito's reflexes are vastly underestimated is still a big question.


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

Is there anything else to say but a yes?

We'll get there when everyone is fleshed out after fighting and comments to be said.

But dealing with a juubidama when all hope is lost by the alliance and Bee covering up as a last resort?  Unreal.


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## Sarry (May 15, 2013)

This! 


People already jumping to assumptions. Bah.


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## takL (May 15, 2013)

the strongest is hash hands down.

minato may come second cos obviously hesone of kishs favs and the father of  naruto.


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## Sniffers (May 15, 2013)

Honestly, what is strength at this point? Hax can deal with Jubi level raw power/strength. Hashirama definately has the most powerful chakra and body, however it's quite evident that hax can make you very dangerous as well, and Hiraishin is certainly potent.​


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

> Honestly, what is strength at this point? Hax can deal with Jubi level  raw power/strength. Hashirama definately has the most powerful chakra  and body, however it's quite evident that hax can make you very  dangerous as well, and Hiraishin is certainly potent.



You seem to be implying that Hashirama _isn't_ the most hilariously, over the top, shit against the wall broken character we have seen to date.


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## Senju Leader (May 15, 2013)

takL said:


> *the strongest is hash hands down.*
> 
> minato may come second cos obviously hesone of kishs favs and the father of  naruto.



Why is Hashirama stronger then Minato? Just because he beat Madara? Because Minato could accomplish that too.


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## city (May 15, 2013)

Arles Celes said:


> He is obviously very fast and Kishi wanted to slap us all with that fact.
> 
> However, speed alone doesn't guarantee superiority otherwise Ei would have destroyed Madara especially with all the backup he had.
> 
> His power set is simply good against attacks like bijuudama. Obito can also "tank" even a continent destroying bijuudama with his kamui. S/T jutsus have no limit on dealing with such attacks though teleporting big targets seems to take plenty of chakra as *Minato was exhausted in the flashback after teporting a single bijuudama and Kuram*a. And Obito has Hashi's DNA...



In terms of the bolded, don't forget he also spent all night pouring chakra into Kushina's seal during childbirth to keep the 9 tails contained.  If I'm not mistaken, he began sweating around then.  Then he had to outrun an explosion with pure speed, teleport away one bijudama, own Obito in a fight, summon a boss toad after running back across the village, and THEN teleport the strongest tailed beast plus himself, then create a barrier. 

It's not like all he did was on S/T barrier and teleport Kurama once.


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## Sniffers (May 15, 2013)

@ace
He's extremely powerful, but there is some ridiculous hax around.


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## SageEnergyMode (May 15, 2013)

It is absolutely possible and those suggesting that it isn't, really don't understand this manga all that well. Sometimes it isn't about raw power, but talent, intelligence and skill. It's not impossible in the slightest that Minato could be an overall better shinobi than all the other Hokage, even without necessarily having more raw power than each and every one of them. A fight is about so much more than who has the most raw power, and this has been proven time and time again.

However, that said, who here can suggest Minato isn't unbelievable powerful after seeing the way he so easily dealt with the Juubi's most powerful Bijuu Dama yet? People have been saying from the onset that Minato wouldn't have the power necessary to deal with attacks on this scale, and he just proved those people wrong, and did so in an instant. I don't know what Kishi intends on doing, but we could very well see the Fourth Hokage match up directly against Uchiha Madara and the Juubi in the coming chapters. If it happens that way, Kishi will not allow the Fourth Hokage to be embarrassed. He will display for all to see just how incredibly powerful the Fourth Hokage truly is. And then, who knows, he may have Hashirama show up when the Juubi is in its final form, but I don't believe that Minato will cease being impressive. However, I do expect for a time to come during this battle where there's maybe nothing even the other Hokage can do, and everything will be up to Naruto.


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

ace, (sigh)

S/T just might be able to top that.

It's that broken.


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

eeewww Fuck No 



Senju Leader said:


> Why is Hashirama stronger then Minato? Just because he beat Madara? Because Minato could accomplish that too.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 15, 2013)

Senju Leader said:


> Why is Hashirama stronger then Minato? Just because he beat Madara? Because Minato could accomplish that too.



What can Minato do against perfect susanoo?


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## SageEnergyMode (May 15, 2013)

city said:


> In terms of the bolded, don't forget he also spent all night pouring chakra into Kushina's seal during childbirth to keep the 9 tails contained.  If I'm not mistaken, he began sweating around then.  Then he had to outrun an explosion with pure speed, teleport away one bijudama, own Obito in a fight, summon a boss toad after running back across the village, and THEN teleport the strongest tailed beast plus himself, then create a barrier.
> 
> It's not like all he did was on S/T barrier and teleport Kurama once.



Precisely, Minato was far from exhausted after teleporting the 9 tails and a single bijuu dama. And people act as if Madara hasn't also shown the capacity to become tired when he was alive. Even Hashirama himself became tired while alive. Edo Tensei summon don't get tired, and that's something we've known for quite awhile now, but I fully expect people to somehow use that as a way to damage control the Fourth Hokage's power, even though just about all of them have been more or less giving Madara as an Edo Tensei summon a pass on doing things for a period of time that may, under more normal circumstances, cause him to be become exhausted.

Fact is, we're about to find out as much about the Fourth Hokage's power against the strongest possible opponents as Kishi wants us to know.



~Gesy~ said:


> What can Minato do against perfect susanoo?



First off, you have no idea that he *couldn't* do something about Perfect Susanoo, because Kishimoto, the author, hasn't told you what, if anything, he might be able to do. Hell, it wasn't very many chapters ago that most people on this very forum assumed that Minato wouldn't have the power necessary to stop those mega bijuu dama that were used to destroy shinobi HQ. And now this chapter comes and Minato easily trolls something of apparently, much, much greater power. Just as I can't say what Minato would have done or could have done against Perfect Susanoo, the same goes for you. 

*Heck, most people on this very forum all said the same exact thing about Hashirama until Kishimoto decided to show us. So many on this forum were saying that they had absolutely no idea how Hashirama could have survived or put up a fight against Madara's Perfect Susanoo. Saying what can Minato do against Perfect Susanoo is the same as saying what can Madara do against the Shiki Fujin. We don't know until we actually see it, now do we? 


People are wondering what Minato could have done with that gigantic bijuu dama, and where he may have teleported it to. What if he didn't teleport it anywhere? What if he has it sealed away in some space-time dimension, waiting for the right time to use it as a weapon in this fight? Perhaps that's a luxury he may not have had when he was a living shinobi, but maybe now as an Edo Tensei shinobi it's something he can accomplish.*


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

What can Madara do against S/T?

Obito was talking smack to him and he gave in, did nothing.


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

JPongo said:


> What can Madara do against S/T?
> 
> Obito was talking smack to him and he gave in, did nothing.



Rinnengan would completely wreck Minato


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

> Why is Hashirama stronger then Minato? Just because he beat Madara?


If you're trying to make this a feats argument you already mislead yourself. If this manga was consistent with what should logically happen based on feats - then Kakashi could have killed Madara on more than one occassion. Take that nonsense to the battledome._ It's not just that he beat Madara_. It's the portrayal of how it happened. He beat Madara's Susano-o and the Kyuubi _simultaneously_. He even tangled with them in base. The two strongest entities up until that point. _In base_. I don't care what Minato is capable of, the author's message is simple to decipher in this situation. Minato couldn't even tie down the Kyuubi without Kushina's help and still couldn't rip out all of its chakra. And he fought Obito in a completely different situation. Couple this with the fact that Hashirama's cells reduced Koto's cool down from 10 years to one day, enables Uchiha's to become invincible in battle via Izanagi and the fact that Madara and Obito were using Hashirama's cells to subdue the Juubi, it's painfully obvious who happens to reign supreme here. 


Not to mention the fact that Naruto is simply the parallel of Hashirama and the younger son of the Sage. Sasuke being the parallel of Madara and the older brother of the sage. On that alone it should be obvious, based on relevancy with the main characters goals and ideology, who the superior shinobi is.


If you want a feats only argument go visit the battledome.


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## Punished Pathos (May 15, 2013)

Closet Pervert said:


> Good points. He probably is too because *Hiruzen was stronger than the Senju *but seemed to sort of feel inferior towards Minato.


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## city (May 15, 2013)

~Gesy~ said:


> What can Minato do against perfect susanoo?



Dodge it until it eats away at Madara.  Warp Madara out of it.  Don't forget Minato warped away Kurama while not even touching him.  Hell, Gaara pulled Madara out of Susanoo with his sand.


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

shyakugaun said:


> Rinnengan would completely wreck Minato



Completely? On a battlefield this huge? With the speediest character? How does that happen?


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

> @ace
> He's extremely powerful, but there is some ridiculous hax around.


Seeing as how you aren't an idiot I'm pretty sure you have the ability to recall what Sage Mode did to Naruto. He went from being near fearless in strength and ending up tossing a gigantic Rhino, running at full speed, _into the fucking stratosphere_. His rasengans became gigantic and he gained the ability to throw his FRS, to the surprise of Ma and Pa.

Now take _all_ of Madara's ridiculously large and absurdly powerful Mokuton feats and amplify them by the same amount that Naruto's strength and ninjutsu were amplified in Sage Mode and you basically have Hashirama. A man who can heal by the same amount Tsunade did, create Mokuton armies and turn everything in his 2 kilometer radius into a forest instantaneously while also summoning a giant buddha that made the Kyuubi seem like a house kitten. Madara is the only person capable of seeing through Mokuton clones. No one is surviving an army of Mokuton clones that are enhanced by Sage Mode when they all have sensing abilities.

To say Hashirama is broken is the biggest understatement of the century. Hashirama is so goddamn broken that I can't even understand what the fuck Kishimoto was thinking in the process of writing his abilities. Hashirama is so laughably broken that I'm flabbergasted that Madara still thinks he has a chance against him.


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## SageEnergyMode (May 15, 2013)

shyakugaun said:


> Rinnengan would completely wreck Minato



Rinnegan coudln't even wreck Naruto, and it's going to wreck his father so easily? The Rinnegan didn't even wreck Jiraiya. That was a very even fight until Jiraiya was caught unawares. Kakashi and co also haven't been doing so bad for themselves either. 

By Kakashi and co, I mean:

Kakashi
Gai
Naruto

Kakashi and Gai are also confirmed to have come up with methods for countering the Rinnegan's techniques, but we didn't get the opportunity to see what those things were.


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

/battledome rant


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

JPongo said:


> Completely? On a battlefield this huge? With the speediest character? How does that happen?



Bro really ? If i have to go into detail on why Rinnengan is a HUGE problem for Minato then whats the point, unless Minato isnt going to fight, and just run around all day, your point of his speed is mute. Shinra Tensei & bansho tenin , Susano combination is CRAZY, especially for a close combat Moveset Like Minato's


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

Although in Minato's defense he's also hilariously broken. Just not to the same extent that Madara and Hashirama happen to be currently. Or even Obito for that matter. He's probably the second strongest hokage unless Tobirama shows me something that tells me otherwise.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Minato is to Hashirama as Obito is to Madara. We all consider Obito & Madara to be on the same generic tier, do we not? 

Usually I wouldn't say Minato stands any kind of chance against the Vote Duo, but he just lol'd at the single most powerful thing the Manga has shown to date,_ by far_. That includes Perfect Susano'o and Shnsuusenju.

When I look at respective movesets, Sage Hashirama should still comfortably beat Minato (I basically agree with ace). However, (Edo) Minato vs. Madara becomes debatable and not a blatant stomp. Sage Hashi is vastly more powerful than a Kyuubi-less Madara as well, so I'm starting to think they're (EMS Madara & Edo Yondaime) around the same level...surprisingly enough. 

S/T allows you to fight opponents with flashy, destructive abilities. Obito could very well defeat Madara, Naruto, or Hashirama (needs favorable conditions)....but could then go on to loose to Minato. It depends.....


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

That's good and all, but what can be done against S/T?


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## xXMUGIWARAXx (May 15, 2013)

being a minato fan i would say he is the strongest but i know better..hashirama is the strongest with minato being the second strongest unless we see something in the next couple of chapters to suggest that minato is stronger than hashirama but i doubt it


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## Plague (May 15, 2013)

I don't think it's impossible. he might even have a Sage Mode or uber jutsu we haven't seen yet.


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Rinnegan coudln't even wreck Naruto, and it's going to wreck his father so easily? The Rinnegan didn't even wreck Jiraiya. That was a very even fight until Jiraiya was caught unawares. Kakashi and co also haven't been doing so bad for themselves either.
> 
> By Kakashi and co, I mean:
> 
> ...



Wtf is this shit ? Rinnengan wrecked Naruto severely, MORE THAN ONCE i mind you, or did you forget ? Pain was about to finish Naruto before Hinata saved him, Nagato raped him and Bee before Itachi saved him. And he wasn't even a leigt Rinnengan user


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

> That's good and all, but what can be done against S/T?



So by this logic Kakashi can beat everyone bar Obito and Minato.


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## SageEnergyMode (May 15, 2013)

shyakugaun said:


> Bro really ? If i have to go into detail on why Rinnengan is a HUGE problem for Minato then whats the point, unless Minato isnt going to fight, and just run around all day, your point of his speed is mute. Shinra Tensei & bansho tenin , Susano combination is CRAZY, especially for a close combat Moveset Like Minato's



You don't know a damn thing about all of Minato's abilities, or what he can do against certain abilities or techniques. None of us really do. How many times must it be proven that we don't know nearly as much about the strongest characters as we might believe we do until Kishi decides to show us?

Seriously, how many times? Speed mute? Naruto was able to handle those Rinnegan techniques. Why in god's name are you thinking that a shinobi of the Fourth Hokage's caliber couldn't? That's what's baffling me. Naruto is also more or less close combat in fighting style.

Again, I'm not saying that what you're saying is impossible, but the point is you know next to know about the full extent of Minato's capabilities. You just THINK you know. Many of the same stuff that you're now saying is a lot of the same stuff that was being said about Hashirama and the mere thought that he could have won against Madara with the abilities Madara had shown. Everybody underestimated what Hashirama had in that arsenal of his until Kishimoto showed us. We know so very little about the Fourth Hokage, someone who is classified as one of the greatest shinobi to ever live.


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## Punished Pathos (May 15, 2013)

xXMUGIWARAXx said:


> being a minato fan i would say he is the strongest but i know better..hashirama is the strongest with minato being the second strongest unless we see something in the next couple of chapters to suggest that minato is stronger than hashirama but i doubt it



Hiruzen Sarutobi is the second strongest Hokage.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2013)

Space & Time Jutsu get bent over by Clone Spammers, which Hashirama can be.


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## Star★Platinum (May 15, 2013)

Possible?  Yes.
Likely? No.


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

αce said:


> So by this logic Kakashi can beat everyone bar Obito and Minato.



To be fair, Kakashi's S/T is still inferior to how Minato and Obito apply theirs.

And we're talking about Minato's S/T that just took care of a war-ending juubidama, k?


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## Milliardo (May 15, 2013)

Senju Leader said:


> Why is Hashirama stronger then Minato? Just because he beat Madara? *Because Minato could accomplish that too.*


 you literally have NO evidence for this. i think there is a reason Hasirama is the only one said to be able to defeat himand there was a time/space user in that time.(tobirama)

you also have to realize Minato can only teleport where the seals are at not anywhere he wants so getting to Madara with his speed alone isn't going to work and even then he has nothing to get through Susanoo. This is all pure speculation but manga has never even hinted at Minato being able to stop Madara.


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## Senju Leader (May 15, 2013)

αce said:


> If you're trying to make this a feats argument you already mislead yourself. If this manga was consistent with what should logically happen based on feats - then Kakashi could have killed Madara on more than one occassion. Take that nonsense to the battledome._ It's not just that he beat Madara_. It's the portrayal of how it happened. He beat Madara's Susano-o and the Kyuubi _simultaneously_. He even tangled with them in base. The two strongest entities up until that point. _In base_. I don't care what Minato is capable of, the author's message is simple to decipher in this situation. Minato couldn't even tie down the Kyuubi without Kushina's help and still couldn't rip out all of its chakra. And he fought Obito in a completely different situation. Couple this with the fact that Hashirama's cells reduced Koto's cool down from 10 years to one day, enables Uchiha's to become invincible in battle via Izanagi and the fact that Madara and Obito were using Hashirama's cells to subdue the Juubi, it's painfully obvious who happens to reign supreme here.
> 
> 
> Not to mention the fact that Naruto is simply the parallel of Hashirama and the younger son of the Sage. Sasuke being the parallel of Madara and the older brother of the sage. On that alone it should be obvious, based on relevancy with the main characters goals and ideology, who the superior shinobi is.
> ...



I understand what you are saying about "author portrayal" being important when discussing character strength. But the problem with that is unless you have spoken with Kishi directly you do not know what is the Author is trying to portray.  For example Hashirama died in some random ninja war to some random ninja fodder. In the same token we have Minato who is known for soloing entire wars basically by himself, and ninja were told to flee on sight when they see him. Just based on how Hashirama's death was portrayed you could consider Minato stonger just based on that. Plus we have multiple characters saying he was a once in a lifetime ninja, unparalled shinobi, yadda yadda yadda... and you could see how people could view Minato in that light.

That why I consider feats  to be the best measure of a characters ability becuase its on panel, undeniable proof of what they are capable of. Feats are  concrete and you can't argue it.


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

Space/time is similar to genjutsu in that it is extremely effective in one on one situations. Once the numbers increase the effectiveness of those said techniques becomes increasingly diminished. For example, Minato would have easily killed A if not for Bee intervening because Minato's technique is inherently limited to single target. A Mokuton clone army with Sage Enhanced durability and enhanced sensing abilities is the thing that Minato has nightmares about when he goes to sleep. Especially since he would never be able to tell who the real Hashirama happens to be.



> That why I consider feats  to be the best measure of a characters  ability becuase its on panel, undeniable proof of what they are capable  of. Feats are  concrete and you can't argue it.



Even if that's the case Hashirama is still superior.


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> You don't know a damn thing about all of Minato's abilities, or what he can do against certain abilities or techniques. None of us really do. How many times must it be proven that we don't know nearly as much about the strongest characters as we might believe we do until Kishi decides to show us?
> 
> Seriously, how many times? Speed mute? Naruto was able to handle those Rinnegan techniques. Why in god's name are you thinking that a shinobi of the Fourth Hokage's caliber couldn't? That's what's baffling me. Naruto is also more or less close combat in fighting style.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that what you're saying is impossible, but the point is you know next to know about the full extent of Minato's capabilities. You just THINK you know. Many of the same stuff that you're now saying is a lot of the same stuff that was being said about Hashirama and the mere thought that he could have won against Madara with the abilities Madara had shown. Everybody underestimated what Hashirama had in that arsenal of his until Kishimoto showed us. We know so very little about the Fourth Hokage, someone who is classified as one of the greatest shinobi to ever live.



Alright man, we'll see how the Bamflash does against Madara next week


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## Baroxio (May 15, 2013)

As much as people think Itachi fans troll, somehow we're worse than Minato fans who legitimately think he can beat the God of Shinobi.

>This forum.


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## city (May 15, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> You don't know a damn thing about all of Minato's abilities, or what he can do against certain abilities or techniques. None of us really do. How many times must it be proven that we don't know nearly as much about the strongest characters as we might believe we do until Kishi decides to show us?
> 
> Seriously, how many times? Speed mute? Naruto was able to handle those Rinnegan techniques. Why in god's name are you thinking that a shinobi of the Fourth Hokage's caliber couldn't? That's what's baffling me. Naruto is also more or less close combat in fighting style.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that what you're saying is impossible, but the point is you know next to know about the full extent of Minato's capabilities. You just THINK you know. Many of the same stuff that you're now saying is a lot of the same stuff that was being said about Hashirama and the mere thought that he could have won against Madara with the abilities Madara had shown. Everybody underestimated what Hashirama had in that arsenal of his until Kishimoto showed us. We know so very little about the Fourth Hokage, someone who is classified as one of the greatest shinobi to ever live.



This is true and people keep thinking all Minato has is rasengan, some seals, and S/T ninjutsu.

Kakashi stated awhile ago that all Jounin in Konoha can use at least two different elemental techniques, yet we've seen none from Minato.  During Orochimaru's invasion, Anko and Hiruzin wished Minato was still alive to handle it, yet we all know Oro won't be defeated by a rasengan or kunai.  These are probably two of the four people that knew him best (Jiraiya and Tsunade  are the other two) and they thought Minato was all that was needed to stop him.

Minato hasn't shown all his skills yet, and let's not forget he hasn't needed to.  He's only been hurt twice in the manga.  Once from debris flying around after an explosion when he saved baby naruto, and once when he intentionally jumped in front of Kurama to save Naruto and just stood there (PIS to me since he could have grabbed the baby and moved).


----------



## SageEnergyMode (May 15, 2013)

shyakugaun said:


> Wtf is this shit ? Rinnengan wrecked Naruto severely, MORE THAN ONCE i mind you, or did you forget ? Pain was about to finish Naruto before Hinata saved him, Nagato raped him and Bee before Itachi saved him. And he wasn't even a leigt Rinnengan user



Bullshit. Legit Rinnegan user... lol. Get the hell out of here with that nonsense. Nagato is showcased as one of the most proficient Rinnegan users we have fucking seen in this manga, arguably in some ways even more impressive than what has been displayed by either Obito or Madara, because he has displayed a level of mastery over the paths that we've no other shinobi emulate.

Sure, we know that Madara and Obito are likely exceedingly proficient with it, but they haven't, in my view, showcased themselves as necessarily being more legit Rinnegan users than Nagato has. Nagato was as legit as they come, even if the eyes really didn't belong to him in the first place.



city said:


> This is true and people keep thinking all Minato has is rasengan, some seals, and S/T ninjutsu.
> 
> Kakashi stated awhile ago that all Jounin in Konoha can use at least two different elemental techniques, yet we've seen none from Minato.  During Orochimaru's invasion, Anko and Hiruzin wished Minato was still alive to handle it, yet we all know Oro won't be defeated by a rasengan or kunai.  These are probably two of the four people that knew him best (Jiraiya and Tsunade  are the other two) and they thought Minato was all that was needed to stop him.
> 
> Minato hasn't shown all his skills yet, and let's not forget he hasn't needed to.  He's only been hurt twice in the manga.  Once from debris flying around after an explosion when he saved baby naruto, and once when he intentionally jumped in front of Kurama to save Naruto and just stood there (PIS to me since he could have grabbed the baby and moved).



I don't see it as PIS that things happened the way they did. What was he suppose to be a coward and have his wife skewered right in front of him after suffering the way she did on that day. He did what he did not only to protect Naruto, but in a failed attempt to protect Kushina. It was as pure an instinct for a father and a husband as it gets. Plus, he was already going to die, Kushina was surely going to be skewered in front of him, and he was temporarily disoriented from the weight of the Kyuubi's chakra on his body.


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Bullshit. Legit Rinnegan user... lol. Get the hell out of here with that nonsense. Nagato is showcased as one of the most proficient Rinnegan users we have fucking seen in this manga, arguably in some ways even more impressive than what has been displayed by either Obito or Madara, because he has displayed a level of mastery over the paths that we've no other shinobi emulate.
> 
> Sure, we know that Madara and Obito are likely exceedingly proficient with it, but they haven't, in my view, showcased themselves as necessarily being more legit Rinnegan users than Nagato has. Nagato was as legit as they come, even if the eyes really didn't belong to him in the first place.



Legit compared to Madara, Obito is another fake, so he doesn't count


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## Bender (May 15, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]COSeM2EVkDc[/YOUTUBE]


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> As much as people think Itachi fans troll, somehow we're worse than Minato fans who legitimately think he can beat the God of Shinobi.
> 
> >This forum.



Thing is, Minato > Hashi discussion holds more merit than say...Itachi > Madara discussion.

Itards are THE worse lot here.


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

In regards to the Rinnegan argument, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be as effective against Minato because he doesn't rely on ninjutsu and chakra based attacks as much as he does on stealth and precision, but the luxury of simply blasting away kunai, instead of having to dodge them (in which case Minato can close a gap and continue the assault with his base speed) is a major hindrance.

I suppose he could just overcome that with placing tags wherever he pleases though. The Rinnegan won't be a gigantic problem unless he took a bone shattering shinrai tensei to the face.



> Thing is, Minato > Hashi discussion holds more merit than say...Itachi > Madara discussion.
> 
> Itards are THE worse lot here.



Itachi fans for the most part already conceded to Madara's superiority when he pulled out perfect Susano-o.


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## Bender (May 15, 2013)

Hashirama in his battle with Madara changes the landscape of an entire area.  Not just that but Hashi was able to tame tailed-beasts with his boss power.


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

αce said:


> In regards to the Rinnegan argument, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be as effective against Minato because he doesn't rely on ninjutsu and chakra based attacks as much as he does on stealth and precision, but the luxury of simply blasting away kunai, instead of having to dodge them (in which case Minato can close a gap and continue the assault with his base speed) is a major hindrance.
> 
> I suppose he could just overcome that with placing tags wherever he pleases though. The Rinnegan won't be a gigantic problem unless he took a bone shattering shinrai tensei to the face.
> 
> ...



im only really talking about shinra tensei & bansho tenin in regards to what rinnengan abilites would be useful against him, as you stated above, these techs could be a hinderance to Minato, combine with Susano, Madara would be a bitch of a opponent for Minato, if it were a all out battle


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## pimpnamedslipback (May 15, 2013)

holy shyt the amount viewing this thread
sometimes idk about minato...he's fast and smart, but not very strong, or at least doesn't have any particular OP abilities...then look at the fact that Hashi solo'd full power Kurama and Madara....thinking about that fight I can't see how Minato could touch Hashi, no matter how fast he is. At best I'd say Minato could gtfo the way when he needs to


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## SageEnergyMode (May 15, 2013)

shyakugaun said:


> Legit compared to Madara, Obito is another fake, so he doesn't count



We accept that Madara is likely more dangerous with that Rinnegan. I can accept that much. However, has he necessarily showcased himself as necessarily more proficient with the Rinnegan than Nagato in combat? I really don't think so in the least. 

We remember all the things that Nagato has done, the techniques he has used in and out of battle. He was beyond profiicient at using the Rinnegan. He could even use all six elemental manipulations thanks to his mastery of the Rinnegan. Come on, we are seriously forgetting admist all the Madara hype that Nagato was one bad ass friend, too. Even the jutsu he used to create perfect 30% copies of Itachi and Kisame, techniques and all. The way he made it rain over the entire Hidden Rain village to detect any threats. Creating the Six Paths of Pain out of necessity, using that mega Shinra Tensei, that sick dragon soul technique he used to steal the souls of all those attacking shinobi in his flashback when he first faced Hanzo.


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## takL (May 15, 2013)

Senju Leader said:


> Why is Hashirama stronger then Minato? Just because he beat Madara? Because Minato could accomplish that too.



like kabuto said hashirama is in the fairy tale class.
plus in the interviews kish has said madara has no real weak points. 
and most recently he said he had to write madara vs hash asked about showdowns at the summit in naruto.


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## SageEnergyMode (May 15, 2013)

pimpnamedslipback said:


> holy shyt the amount viewing this thread
> sometimes idk aboutn minato...he's fast and smart, but not very strong, or at least doesn't have any particular OP abilities...then look at the fact that Hashi solo'd full power Kurama and Madara....thinking about that fight I can't see how Minato could touch Hashi, no matter how fast he is. At best I'd say Minato could gtfo the way when he needs to



So being able to do what he just did to the Juubi's most powerful bijuu dama so far isn't an OP ability? Come on...



takL said:


> like kabuto said hashirama is in the fairy tale class.
> plus in the interviews kish has said madara has no real weak points.
> and most recently he said he had to write madara vs hash asked about showdowns at the summit in naruto.



Yes, but this is one and the same Kabuto that was wrong about so much. I'm not saying he was necessarily wrong about Hashirama, but just because one ninja receives extraordinary hype doesn't mean that another shinobi is somehow inferior because he didn't receive that same hype. Minato had a flee on sight order for any shinobi that happened to come across him on the battlefield. They saw Minato as that deadly, that even a future Kage in waiting was advised to flee. Now, does this mean that people didn't want to run when the likes of Hashirama and Madara came stomping around? Of course not, but it just goes to showcase that we can't use one character's hype to necessarily downplay another character that has always been nothing but impressive. It isn't his fault that no opponent has yet been good enough to force him to showcase even more of his arsenal.

I mean, look at Itachi. A perfect example of skill, talent and intelligence being more meaningful than raw power. Minato doesn't showcase his power in overthetop destructive techniques. He showcases his power with his talent and raw combat ability, and with the level of his techniques, which are about as worthy as any high level technique in this manga. It doesn't need to be a gigantic spirit warrior, or create a massive crater in the earth to be imipressive. It isn't necessarily all about how overpowered you can look in the process of getting something done. All that matters is that you get the job done, and Minato has never been a slouch in this regard.


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

αce said:


> In regards to the Rinnegan argument, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be as effective against Minato because he doesn't rely on ninjutsu and chakra based attacks as much as he does on stealth and precision, but the luxury of simply blasting away kunai, instead of having to dodge them (in which case Minato can close a gap and continue the assault with his base speed) is a major hindrance.
> 
> I suppose he could just overcome that with placing tags wherever he pleases though. The Rinnegan won't be a gigantic problem unless he took a bone shattering shinrai tensei to the face.
> 
> Itachi fans for the most part already conceded to Madara's superiority when he pulled out perfect Susano-o.



Agreed on Minato dealing with rinnegan, but he's the most untouchable character there is so...

And it took Itards that long to figure out Madara >>>>>>>> Itachi? LOL.


----------



## Senju Leader (May 15, 2013)

Bender said:


> Hashirama in his battle with Madara changes the landscape of an entire area.  Not just that but Hashi was able to tame tailed-beasts with his boss power.



Naruto is not Dragonball Z though. Just because one character has higher firepower and can change landscapes does not guarantee a victory. For example Bee has much more firepower then Itachi, but because of his skill set Itachi could most likely take bee down.


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## shyakugaun (May 15, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> We accept that Madara is likely more dangerous with that Rinnegan. I can accept that much. However, has he necessarily showcased himself as necessarily more proficient with the Rinnegan than Nagato in combat? I really don't think so in the least.
> 
> We remember all the things that Nagato has done, the techniques he has used in and out of battle. He was beyond profiicient at using the Rinnegan. He could even use all six elemental manipulations thanks to his mastery of the Rinnegan. Come on, we are seriously forgetting admist all the Madara hype that Nagato was one bad ass friend, too. Even the jutsu he used to create perfect 30% copies of Itachi and Kisame, techniques and all. The way he made it rain over the entire Hidden Rain village to detect any threats. Creating the Six Paths of Pain out of necessity, using that mega Shinra Tensei, that sick dragon soul technique he used to steal the souls of all those attacking shinobi in his flashback when he first faced Hanzo.



I think its safe to assume, Madara will prove to be more effiecient, as thats just his character, he masters everything he does, but granted your point stands, Minato is a beast, i hate having to degrade characters just to prove a point, but come on, you really think, Minato is capable of defeating Madara one on one ?


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## Morgan (May 15, 2013)

Oh look at them now.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 15, 2013)

I have always considered Minato the strongest, only to be surpassed by his sperm cell. I have had this theory since 06, and seven years later it looks like its turning out to be true


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## Toonz (May 15, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> You don't know a damn thing about all of Minato's abilities, or what he can do against certain abilities or techniques. None of us really do. How many times must it be proven that we don't know nearly as much about the strongest characters as we might believe we do until Kishi decides to show us?
> 
> Seriously, how many times? Speed mute? *Naruto was able to handle those Rinnegan techniques*. Why in god's name are you thinking that a shinobi of the Fourth Hokage's caliber couldn't? That's what's baffling me. Naruto is also more or less close combat in fighting style.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that what you're saying is impossible, but the point is you know next to know about the full extent of Minato's capabilities. You just THINK you know. Many of the same stuff that you're now saying is a lot of the same stuff that was being said about Hashirama and the mere thought that he could have won against Madara with the abilities Madara had shown. Everybody underestimated what Hashirama had in that arsenal of his until Kishimoto showed us. We know so very little about the Fourth Hokage, someone who is classified as one of the greatest shinobi to ever live.



Come on now did you read chapter 551? Did that look like he was handling the rinnegan techniques well? If it wasn't for itachi there would have been no naruto.


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## CyberianGinseng (May 15, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> you literally have NO evidence for this. i think there is a reason Hasirama is the only one said to be able to defeat himand there was a time/space user in that time.(tobirama)
> 
> you also have to realize Minato can only teleport where the seals are at not anywhere he wants so getting to Madara with his speed alone isn't going to work and even then he has nothing to get through Susanoo. This is all pure speculation but manga has never even hinted at Minato being able to stop Madara.


Madara/Susanoo can be dealt with in any number of ways:
Minato can teleport Susanoo itself. We know this because Susanoo can be grabbed and held in place or knocked to the ground like any other physical object. A physical object can be teleported. A second later Madara's head has left his shoulders as Minato ports back to cut it off. Minato then seals the regenerating Madara.
Minato can bisect Susanoo and Madara inside Susanoo with a space-time barrier. Minato then seals the regenerating Madara.
In any case, there's no need to penetrate Susanoo. *Susanoo has empty space inside of it.* That's how Madara was grabbed by Gaara's sand. Gaara's sand can fit inside it why can't Minato fit inside it? Minato then slices and dices. Minato then seals the regenerating Madara. Only PS may be different, but that remains to be seen.

Not saying he WILL defeat Madara (I don't think they're going to fight) just that it ain't impossible like you make it out to be. Outside of Hashirama, Minato is the best equipped to fight Madara.


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 15, 2013)

No. _No_ _it_ _isn't_.​​


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## CyberianGinseng (May 15, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No. _No_ _it_ _isn't_.​​





403 Forbidden

nginx


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## αce (May 15, 2013)

they work for me


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## Hamaru (May 15, 2013)

Lol, people are funny. No he isn't the strongest. He just has a jutsu that is great against chakra blast. Also, people would have a hard time seeing him if they are concentrating on the huge Bijuu Bomb and he is using his S/T jutsu.


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## Harbour (May 15, 2013)

All of Hokages the strongest shinobi of all time, exclude few people with Cheaterennigan, so i think all of them have the equal power level. I mean each of them have the real chances to defeat other. But right now Minato and Hashirama had the best feats and hype.
I think it will turn into hashirama, minato, tobirama, hiruzen, but the gape between them will be very small.


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## CyberianGinseng (May 15, 2013)

αce said:


> they work for me


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## JPongo (May 15, 2013)

That juubidama Minato casually took care of is >>>>> than anything Hashi and Madara have shown in their fight.


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## pimpnamedslipback (May 15, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> So being able to do what he just did to the Juubi's most powerful bijuu dama so far isn't an OP ability? Come on...


but he used a technique to seal chakra...hashirama doesn't have chakra tossin attacks AFAIK and if minato could use bijuu bomb hashi would just turn it into a rasengan w/ dat budda


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## Addy (May 15, 2013)

Either the itachi treatment or not. We will see next chapter


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## Elite Uchiha (May 15, 2013)

Kishimoto said it himself Minato was unparalleled.


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## Bender (May 15, 2013)

@Elite Uchiha

Like that dumbass knows what he's talking about. Minato was even one of the people shitting his pants when Hashirama was giving Tobirama the "fuck off" look when he thought of immediately pwning Sasuke and co.


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## pimpnamedslipback (May 15, 2013)

then we have the fact that mada is pretty smart himself...he always finds a way to exploit a flaw in his opponents jutsu, as a matter of fact we may just find the weakness to this op ftg ye


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## SilenceOz (May 15, 2013)

I think Minato would be around Hashi's level.

Minato proved that size and destructiveness don't count for anything when he is using S/T
No matter how big the attack he can warp it.

As shown with the Juubi's Bijuudama he managed to warp it like it was nothing.

Hashi certainly would be coming out of a fight with him very injured most likely.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (May 15, 2013)

It's possible, but not likely.

In a head up fight Minato hasn't displayed a strong finisher that can bring down Hashirama who has insane durability and regen. Unless his Rasengan is that serious.

Here's hoping Kishi shows some more of his arsenal.



Brandon Lee said:


>


That looks like the man in the moon got pissed if and decided to crash into the Earth.


Senju Leader said:


> The difference between Ei and Minato is a large gap intellegence. also Ei doesnt really use ninjustu and is more of a brawler of sorts. Plus it is already established that Ei speed is below Naruto's and S/T techs.
> 
> I understand what are you saying about his power set, but my point is Minato is so fast you cannot even see him using his techniques until it is all over.


Barring the fight with Sasuke, we never really got to see A's willingness to use ninjutsu, and we can't since he's missing a hand.
You know she looks just about right for many of my office lady fantasies 


αce said:


> In regards to the Rinnegan argument, I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be as effective against Minato because he doesn't rely on ninjutsu and chakra based attacks as much as he does on stealth and precision, but the luxury of simply blasting away kunai, instead of having to dodge them (in which case Minato can close a gap and continue the assault with his base speed) is a major hindrance.
> 
> I suppose he could just overcome that with placing tags wherever he pleases though. The Rinnegan won't be a gigantic problem unless he took a bone shattering shinrai tensei to the face.
> 
> ...


Actually Shinra Tensei and Bansho Ten'in are NOT effective offensive on Minato, the same as Kamui.

He can actually teleport out of them and avoid their effects.

One thing that I've always wonder is if in fact using the tree climbing technique to hold on to the ground is an effective defense against those two. Tsunade got seriously screwed as she was going to fight Pain intelligently.

Preta path is effective against Rasengan, but not Minato's tendency to slit throats. 

Human realm is similar to Deva.

And since Minato is a regular teleporter the connected vision of the Rinnegan wouldn't be as effective, since there's nothing to track

Hell Realm got pwned by Konohamaru.

Ashura realm gets smashed by Rasengan and I doubt any of its attacks would connect.

And animal realm...well that's the same summon battle that Naruto and the toads fought.


CyberianGinseng said:


> 403 Forbidden
> 
> nginx



This.

POST #9229


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## Rawri (May 15, 2013)

I don't see anyone anyone (except Madara) being stronger than Hashirama, but I guess it's possible.

And Tobirama doesn't have only 'water techs'. He has Hiraishin. And Hashirama has Bring of Darkness. Both could potentially overwhelm Minato.

We have no idea anyway. Let's see what every Kage can do, and then judge.


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## Ezekial (May 15, 2013)

In my unbiased opinion...

Not yet, it's confirmed that Hashirama is as of now, after Vote it was certain, but Minato also has god tier feats, he could be second, wait and see he may become the strongest.


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## T-Bag (May 15, 2013)




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## Hamaru (May 15, 2013)

JPongo said:


> That juubidama Minato casually took care of is >>>>> than anything Hashi and Madara have shown in their fight.



Yet, we have no idea if Minato could do the same thing against the type of attacks Madara and Hashirama use. We just know that chakra blast that are not continuas are useless against him.


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## Sniffers (May 15, 2013)

αce said:


> Seeing as how you aren't an idiot I'm pretty sure you have the ability to recall what Sage Mode did to Naruto. He went from being near fearless in strength and ending up tossing a gigantic Rhino, running at full speed, _into the fucking stratosphere_. His rasengans became gigantic and he gained the ability to throw his FRS, to the surprise of Ma and Pa.
> 
> Now take _all_ of Madara's ridiculously large and absurdly powerful Mokuton feats and amplify them by the same amount that Naruto's strength and ninjutsu were amplified in Sage Mode and you basically have Hashirama. A man who can heal by the same amount Tsunade did, create Mokuton armies and turn everything in his 2 kilometer radius into a forest instantaneously while also summoning a giant buddha that made the Kyuubi seem like a house kitten. Madara is the only person capable of seeing through Mokuton clones. No one is surviving an army of Mokuton clones that are enhanced by Sage Mode when they all have sensing abilities.
> 
> To say Hashirama is broken is the biggest understatement of the century. Hashirama is so goddamn broken that I can't even understand what the fuck Kishimoto was thinking in the process of writing his abilities. Hashirama is so laughably broken that I'm flabbergasted that Madara still thinks he has a chance against him.


Yeah, Hashirama is ridiculous in terms of the scale he does everything in, but my point is that there are some techniques that are so horribly broken that it could potentially beat Hashirama before he ever did anything, despite Shodai having way more raw power. Raw power has been beaten by hax before.​


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## T-Bag (May 15, 2013)

only hashirama could beat madara. canon.

so only madara can fight hashirama. the rest get babyshaked. like minato for example


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2013)

I don't see why people didn't see this coming. This is _Edo_ Minato, meaning infinite chakra- meaning that getting tired warping the Kyuubi's Bijuudama is completely irrelevant at the moment.

Minato still isn't the strongest Hokage, though; it's obviously Hashirama; nothing beats the original.


Also, Hashirama isn't losing to _anyone's_ hax we've seen thus far. Ever. Not by a mile.


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## Senjuclan (May 15, 2013)

Sniffers said:


> Yeah, Hashirama is ridiculous in terms of the scale he does everything in, but my point is that there are some techniques that are so horribly broken that it could potentially beat Hashirama before he ever did anything, despite Shodai having way more raw power. Raw power has been beaten by hax before.​



Problem is that we have not seen hax that can't be beaten by the arsenal Hashirama has either. If you limit Hashirama to just mokuton and ignore everything else then maybe but looking at the complete picture of his power, I don't see anyone beating him before he could do anything. Definitely not Minato


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## takL (May 15, 2013)

earlier ino took care of 10bs bijudama as well.


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## Senjuclan (May 15, 2013)

takL said:


> earlier ino took care of 10bs bijudama as well.



This. So much this


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## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Madara can use his Rinngan in other than Preta Path?
Since when? @.@


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## Hasan (May 15, 2013)

I don't believe, even with Jikūkan Kekkai, Minato could have countered several Bijūdama — less powerful they might be. The jutsu, it seems, is only good against a single projectile ... or more precisely a limited number that the barrier can envelope. I don't suppose you believe that he can erect barrier space indefinitely.

Regardless, Hashirama's abilities have no bounds. You don't where to start listing them, and where to end. The guy deserves every bit o' Shinobi no Kami hype he received, thus far. I think the author has made it clear by this point that Hashirama and Madara are _well above everyone else_. There is no question who is stronger of the four. Though, I still remain hopeful that Sarutobi may surprise us — little those chances might be, but they remain nonetheless.


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## Sniffers (May 15, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Problem is that we have not seen hax that can't be beaten by the arsenal Hashirama has either. If you limit Hashirama to just mokuton and ignore everything else then maybe but looking at the complete picture of his power, I don't see anyone beating him before he could do anything. Definitely not Minato


Well, almost everything can be countered with a simple Bunshin feint so I agree with that much, but imo things like KotoAmatsukami are so hilariously broken that all concepts of power levels basically become void.​


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## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Hasan said:


> I don't believe, even with Jikūkan Kekkai, Minato could have countered several Bijūdama ? less powerful they might be. The jutsu, it seems, is only good against a single projectile ... or more precisely a limited number that the barrier can envelope. I don't suppose you believe that he can erect barrier space indefinitely.
> 
> Regardless, Hashirama's abilities have no bounds. You don't where to start listing them, and where to end. The guy deserves every bit o' Shinobi no Kami hype he received, thus far. I think the author has made it clear by this point that Hashirama and Madara are _well above everyone else_. There is no question who is stronger of the four. Though, I still remain hopeful that Sarutobi may surprise us ? little those chances might be, but they remain nonetheless.



- Yes he can. Can't you see the different in size between the 10tails' TBB and the others?


- the only thing that Kishi made it clear is Hiruzen being the strongest. He Never said Hashi. 
that's fan fiction.


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## The Silver (May 15, 2013)

No its not possible, at best he's the Obito to Hashirama's Madara.  He has the hax but the lack of firepower means he can't seal the deal.

Hashirama has consistently been portrayed as above and beyond everyone else, as a god, as a fairy tale, the apex shinobi.


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## Senjuclan (May 15, 2013)

Senju Leader said:


> Why do you say that? Just because of some nickname that Hashirama got when there was no good ninja around to really challenge him?



No good ninja to challenge him you say? Name ONE ninja around at the time of Minato who was as strong as EMS Madara with the kyuubi. Just ONE. It is funny how in Kishi's latest interview, he said drawing the Madara vs. Hashirama fight was so hard because he already said they were the two strongest. Hey, why should anyone listen to Kishi though



Senju Leader said:


> I agree. That is what seperates Naruto from dragonball, One Piece, Bleach etc. Just because one character has higher firepower doesnt mean an automatic win



Just like having space-time ninjutsu and rasengan does not mean automatic win either



Senju Leader said:


> I understand what are you saying about his power set, but my point is Minato is so fast you cannot even see him using his techniques until it is all over.



Be sure to tell that to Kirabi. He put a sword to Minato's gut because hiraishin is so unpredictable, right?


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## Arles Celes (May 15, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> No good ninja to challenge him you say? Name ONE ninja around at the time of Minato who was as strong as EMS Madara with the kyuubi. Just ONE. It is funny how in Kishi's latest interview, he said drawing the Madara vs. Hashirama fight was so hard because he already said they were the two strongest. Hey, why should anyone listen to Kishi though



Got a link to that interview? Always a good read


----------



## Milliardo (May 15, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Madara/Susanoo can be dealt with in any number of ways.


 so madara is just going to watch minato walk up to susanoo and teleport it? basically what you are doing is dumbing down madara to help minato. madara will be attacking him, minato can't just run up and teleport it no problem. he would need a decoy to even get that close. even so madara can summon it back just as fast. you are also ignoring madara's other powerful abilities like rearranging the entire battlefield. if minato goes on the offensive he will be left open even for a second madara will not be because he can attack and defend at the sametime all while destroying the whole battlefield.


----------



## Shinryu (May 15, 2013)

Hashirama is the strongest but Minato could completely troll Hashirama with unlimited S/T Barrier.


----------



## Prince Vegeta (May 15, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> Maybe, but the fastest would.



Is Naruto Hiruzen's or Hashirama's son?  No.


----------



## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> No good ninja to challenge him you say? Name ONE ninja around at the time of Minato who was as strong as EMS Madara with the kyuubi. Just ONE. It is funny how in Kishi's latest interview, he said drawing the Madara vs. Hashirama fight was so hard* because he already said they were the two strongest*. Hey, why should anyone listen to Kishi though



I'm interested, may you put the link? 
honestly I don't remember he said such thing like that about Hashi
but it's good to correct my information. @.@


----------



## Senjuclan (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> I'm interested, may you put the link?
> honestly I don't remember he said such thing like that about Hashi
> but it's good to correct my information. @.@



On my cell. Searching is a bitch. Ask TaKL if he is still around. He is the one who translated it. I will post the link when I get home


----------



## GunX2 (May 15, 2013)

Optimus Hiruzen Prime is the strongest.


----------



## Blaze Release (May 15, 2013)

Understanding of the manga, Hashirama/Madara have been hailed and put above everybody else. The two main character's benchmark while minato/itachi are their mediums to reach hashi/mad.

So no Minato is obviously not the strongest.
Likewise the way things is going i am betting that Tobirama is the second strongest or should i say, the rankings is aligned to when they became hokage


----------



## Rai (May 15, 2013)

Minato, stronger than Hashirama?


----------



## AlphaReaver (May 15, 2013)

Either 1st or 2nd Strongest.

I feel that Hashirama is a Perfect Counter to Minato tho.

It comes down to how Clever, & how good Hashirama's Reflexes are.

Let's not forget Minato babyshaked an Uchiha trained by Madara & implanted with Hashirama cells & techniques who had prep time & ambushed him & made a 2 on 1 with an invincible Bijuu.


----------



## Senjuclan (May 15, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> Either 1st or 2nd Strongest.
> 
> I feel that Hashirama is a Perfect Counter to Minato tho.
> 
> ...



You forgot to include the part where he loses his life as a consequence 

PS: Joking aside, I think anyone with a brain knows that Minato and Hashirama will stand higher than Tobirama and Hiruzen. Let's wait to get more information but so far my money is on Hashirama being slightly stronger


----------



## Turrin (May 15, 2013)

This chapter gave Minato an incredible feat, but we should just wait to see the Hokages perform before calling one stronger or another. Though I tend to believe evidence suggest Minato is inferior to Hashi. Afterall Naruto is stated to have surpassed Minato after mastering BM & Chakra Transfer, but Madara still seems to consider Hashi a bigger challenge/threat than Naruto.


----------



## fe10 (May 15, 2013)

Maybe, but disappearing that huge nuke is no small feat.


----------



## lathia (May 15, 2013)

Raw power wise? No way. Hashi and Madara are on a league of their own. Their style revolves around brute force and large scale attacks. Minato's style is different and has an extremely versatile ability on his deck.


----------



## Jeαnne (May 15, 2013)

he might be second, we know hashirama is number one


----------



## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Jeαnne said:


> he might be second, *we *know hashirama is number one



We?
I wouldn't call "ass pull" all together. A hint is made, no matter how "unbelievable" it sounds.


----------



## Hasan (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - Yes he can. Can't you see the different in size between the 10tails' TBB and the others?



By indefinite, I meant to question whether he is able to adjust for attacks converging from different angles, or not. In that page, you can see that Madara shot them indefinitely with different trajectories ... and I don't think that the "portal" can remain open for extended duration (refer to the fact that he has to redirect as soon as the projectile is warped).


----------



## Klue (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> We?
> I wouldn't call "ass pull" all together. A hint is made, no matter how "unbelievable" it sounds.



I wouldn't call "ass pull" all together. A hint is made, no matter how "unbelievable" it sounds.



People didn't believe Hashirama was as strongs as his legend. How much of Hashirama's strength was accounted for when his power was compared to Hiruzen's? 

Not all of it, according to Kabuto.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2013)

anything's possible.

it's even possible that Hiruzen is the strongest hokage, and that we'll get a statement about how lucky madara is that Hiruzen was brought back as an old man.

This chapter has increased the likelyhood of minato being the strongest, but I wouldn't say its the most probable thing implied by the manga.


----------



## doubletongue (May 15, 2013)

Not the strongest... But he's possibly unbeatable. He could still take it if the conditions are right.

Every Hokage is the strongest Hokage. 100% manga fact.


----------



## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

Hasan said:


> By indefinite, I meant to question whether he is able to adjust for attacks converging from different angles, or not. In that page, you can see that Madara shot them indefinitely with different trajectories ... and I don't think that the "portal" can remain open for extended duration (refer to the fact that he has to redirect as soon as the projectile is warped).



-I honestly don't see the problem, because it's not like if there is an attack from forward
and another one behind him ...etc they are all come from the same direction. 

- about the redirect immediately I don't think it's stated any where. @.@
and even if that's was the case it doesn't really change anything. he can chose whatever
place he wants in the first time, and all the others will go to the same place, it's not like he has
to change it every time!



Klue said:


> I wouldn't call "ass pull" all together. A hint is made, no matter how "unbelievable" it sounds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Funny how Kishi made sure to exclude the dead people.


----------



## PikaCheeka (May 15, 2013)

He did absolutely nothing here he hasn't done before.

What's the big deal?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (May 15, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> He did absolutely nothing here he hasn't done before.
> 
> What's the big deal?



Well we never knew he could shrug off a Bijuudama 100x the size of Killer Bee's


----------



## The Prodigy (May 15, 2013)

To save you, I'd count on Minato more than Hashirama. 

But if i wanted a mofo dead, you can bet your ass Hashirama's the guy i'm callin.


----------



## Sarry (May 15, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> He did absolutely nothing here he hasn't done before.
> 
> What's the big deal?



Well, he showed up. That's pretty much it


----------



## Aazadan (May 15, 2013)

Hashirama has had too much hype to not be #1.  Honestly, due to Senju DNA and all, not to mention similar techniques I think it's possible he's not even #2, Tobirama may take that spot.


----------



## AlphaReaver (May 15, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You forgot to include the part where he loses his life as a consequence
> 
> PS: Joking aside, I think anyone with a brain knows that Minato and Hashirama will stand higher than Tobirama and Hiruzen. Let's wait to get more information but so far my money is on Hashirama being slightly stronger



You forgot to include the part where Hashirama had free genetic magic Bijuu suppression & magic Wood handouts & still needed his special Bijuu Supression Kryptonite Necklace.

Minato is the strongest Normal Human. I can't be mad, regardless of where he ranks, because he did it all on his own, with his own "Power".

But hey I guess being born with magic "Rikudo was my grandaddy Hax" is Cool too. -_-


----------



## ImSerious (May 15, 2013)

what do you mean ''possible''


----------



## insane111 (May 15, 2013)

Maybe as an Edo. He could abuse the shit out of the unlimited chakra and never get touched. 

But obviously that won't happen, Deidara's edo also had to be gimped to prevent him from soloing the manga.


----------



## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

insane111 said:


> Maybe as an Edo. He could abuse the shit out of the unlimited chakra and never get touched.



Except they are weaker as an edo since they are not at their full power. As stated by Tobirama.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (May 15, 2013)

Lol, Im just imagining Minato with Senju DNA. Probably stronger than RS + his sons.


----------



## insane111 (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Except they are weaker as an edo since they are not at their full power. As stated by Tobirama.



And yet he can still use FTG and create barriers big enough to stop Juubi attacks. I fail to see how that matters.

When he fought the Kyuubi his problem was he was low on chakra, but that problem won't occur as an Edo.


----------



## Trojan (May 15, 2013)

insane111 said:


> And yet he can still use FTG and create barriers big enough to stop Juubi attacks. I fail to see how that matters.
> 
> When he fought the Kyuubi his problem was he was low on chakra, but that problem won't occur here.



it does not matter, since we know they are not at their full power. So whatever they show
in this battle they do have more power than that. Perhaps except Hashi who we already know
his full power from his battle against Madara.


----------



## Hasan (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> -I honestly don't see the problem, because it's not like if there is an attack from forward
> and another one behind him ...etc they are all come from the same direction.
> 
> - about the redirect immediately I don't think it's stated any where. @.@
> ...



It is only logical to assume that such is the case. Otherwise, he need not to worry about "redirecting" in the first place. In that respect, it can only redirect a single projectile, regardless of the size ... modifying a bit of my original argument. Additionally, you have to consider how much benefit he gained from limitless chakra ... as I recall, teleporting the Kyūbi took a huge toll on him. Madara and Hashirama casually play around at scale much greater than that ... The author has portrayed them to be leagues above everyone else.


----------



## IchLiebe (May 15, 2013)

What if he tagged the Jyuubi then sent the bijuu bomb through a s/t barrier? Or any attack.


His main goal is to tag an enemy he probably gots a site that he sends shit to usually but in battle if they was tagged the attack would go through onto the opponet. And given his speed and reflexes..... good luck.

He's damn near unstoppable and he is about to show that he is far above everyone. 


Naruto"Your revived?"  Minato "Yea Oro revived the hokage and let us free" Madara....runs away hearing of Hashirama being free and coming to kick his ass. Naruto " Where they at?'' Minato "At the rate of Tobirama's jutsu 2 days" Alliance   Madara   Minato 


Minato going to solo.


----------



## Klue (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Funny how Kishi made sure to exclude the dead people.



None believed his strength, does not exclude the dead.

But of course, Kishi can't exclude the dead. Rikudou isn't alive, after all.


----------



## The Prodigy (May 15, 2013)

Minato soloing 

Madara's still bored


----------



## Milliardo (May 15, 2013)

minato ain't beating madara and he damn sure ain't running the show. i would be careful minato fanboys. i look forward to next chapters now.


----------



## insane111 (May 15, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> it does not matter, since we know they are not at their full power. So whatever they show
> in this battle they do have more power than that. Perhaps except Hashi who we already know
> his full power from his battle against Madara.



But Minato isn't like the other Kages. He isn't a chakra powerhouse who relies on large-scale techniques. That's why I don't think it matters.


----------



## Addy (May 15, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> minato ain't beating madara and he damn sure ain't running the show. i would be careful minato fanboys. i look forward to next chapters now.



fuck madara, minato, my boy, will rape him


----------



## Senjuclan (May 15, 2013)

AlphaReaver said:


> You forgot to include the part where Hashirama had free genetic magic Bijuu suppression & magic Wood handouts & still needed his special Bijuu Supression Kryptonite Necklace.
> 
> Minato is the strongest Normal Human. I can't be mad, regardless of where he ranks, because he did it all on his own, with his own "Power".
> 
> But hey I guess being born with magic "Rikudo was my grandaddy Hax" is Cool too. -_-



1. Hashirama beat down kyuusanoo on his own regardless bro. He redirected his bijuudama and hit so hard the Kyuubi was drooling and losing consciousness. Get back to me when someone can do that
2. Where did Hashirama need kryptonite necklace? Show me the panel. You are confusing him with Tenzou
3. But hey we agree on Minato being the strongest normal human


----------



## CyberianGinseng (May 15, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> *so madara is just going to watch minato walk up to susanoo and teleport it?* basically what you are doing is dumbing down madara to help minato. madara will be attacking him, minato can't just run up and teleport it no problem. he would need a decoy to even get that close. even so madara can summon it back just as fast. you are also ignoring madara's other powerful abilities like rearranging the entire battlefield. if minato goes on the offensive he will be left open even for a second madara will not be because he can attack and defend at the sametime all while destroying the whole battlefield.


Post one pic of Minato *walking *up to any opponent.

That's stupid. Who's more mobile? Minato or Madara sitting there in Susanoo all safe and sound and shit? I'm supposed to believe Madara can hit the most mobile ninja in the manga with Susanoo sword swings and trees and shit, but Madara in his gigantic target of a Susanoo is incapable of being hit with a kunai? Please. How many times did the Gokage hit Susanoo?

Changing the landscape can't catch someone who can be anywhere that he can throw a kunai to or who can block incoming rocks and trees and debris with a space-time barrier. You can't hit Minato with that shit.

You're acting like Madara can't be caught off guard. There's absolutely no evidence that Madara can dematerialize Susanoo plus rematerialize Susanoo faster than Minato can port. Minato out maneuvered Raikage, when Madara  hasn't replicated the feat of beating Raikage in pure speed.

As humans Madara has the chakra advantage. Minato has to finish him quickly which would not be in his favor. As Edo's that advantage is eliminated. What's more likely? Madara hitting a teleporting target by changing landscape or Minato landing just one kunai out of the dozens that he can pull out of his bag near Madara's Susanoo? 

You're fooling yourself if you think Minato doesn't have a very good chance to beat Madara.


----------



## Ƶero (May 15, 2013)

Minato just countered a Juubidama the most powerful thing we've seen in Naruto so far without breaking a sweat, you know from the continent busting juubi. This is far more impressive than anything Madara or Hashirama have shown. It's very possible Minato is the strongest. Next chapter should be interesting. Bitches pls.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (May 15, 2013)

I wonder what the hell Sarutobi is thinking....

He's probably like well shit I might as just grab this lawn chair over here and watch


----------



## Gilgamesh (May 15, 2013)

No because Hashirama is.


----------



## dungsi27 (May 15, 2013)

Dont come to this conclusion too quickly we havent seen all the shit the other hokages are capable of


----------



## copydog123 (May 15, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> what do you mean ''possible''



you are right. it's impossible.


----------



## ch1p (May 15, 2013)

Hashirama is strongest, but Minato's S/T is one of those techniques that are broken (much like Obito's Kamui).


----------



## Gunners (May 15, 2013)

It's possible but I think it is more likely that each Hokage has an area of expertise that ultimately levels out. 

Shodai= Raw power. 

Nidaime= Not sure. 

Sandaime= Versatility. 

Yondaime= Evasiveness, counter, seals. 

Tsunade= Healing/support.


----------



## Skywalker (May 15, 2013)

How about no.


----------



## arriku (May 15, 2013)

I feel like MInato had the possibility of becoming a lot stronger, but his life was cut short before he could reach his prime. As for OPs question, I'm under the impression hashirama is the strongest.


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (May 16, 2013)

Hashirama will be said to be the strongest Hokage and he'll prove it but Minato will be said to potential surpass Hashirama had he lived as long, out of all the Edo Hokages he'll be the one with the most potential.


----------



## Trojan (May 16, 2013)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Hashirama will be said to be the strongest Hokage and he'll prove it but Minato will be said to have potentially surpass Hashirama had he lived as long, out of all the Edo Hokages he'll be the one with the most potential.



I see no reason for Kishi to say Hashi is the strongest at this point. It's irrelevant now
because Naruto should surpass all of them at the end of this fight, so why would Kishi
change the strongest now when it has no effect at all?


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (May 16, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> I see no reason for Kishi to say Hashi is the strongest at this point. It's irrelevant now
> because Naruto should surpass all of them at the end of this fight, so why would Kishi
> change the strongest now when it has no effect at all?



You're misunderstanding me. 

It's not irrelevant, if anything it's more relevant than ever out of all the Kages. We've heard that Hashirama's strength is so vast that it was like a fairy tale and beyond that we've heard numerous hints towards how strong he truly was. Given Madara's here and we've had hints towards their upcoming battle it's clear Hashirama will prove it. I'm only talking about the Edo Kages. I'm not even talking about Naruto. Naruto's not relevant to what I'm saying.


----------



## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

Why do i get the feeling we're gonna have a "Is it possible that*enter Hokages name* is the strongest Hokage?" thread every week?


----------



## Trojan (May 16, 2013)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> You're misunderstanding me.
> 
> It's not irrelevant, if anything it's more relevant than ever out of all the Kages. We've heard that Hashirama's strength is so vast that it was like a fairy tale and beyond that we've heard numerous hints towards how strong he truly was. *Given Madara's here and we've had hints towards their upcoming battle it's clear Hashirama will prove it*. I'm only talking about the Edo Kages. I'm not even talking about Naruto. Naruto's not relevant to what I'm saying.



other than Tobirama, they are not far away from Hashi's hype. Hiruzen said to be the strongest
and the god of shinobi and the professor. Minato said to be unbeatable/unsurpassed. the Savior. ..etc. 

I doubt it, unlike the others Hashi already show his full power, and he hardly defeated EMS Madara I don't see how is possible to the weaker Hashi (because of the edo) to defeat the stronger Madara! Hashi should be defeated so Naruto can prove that he surpass them. There is absolutely no point of making them defeat Madara and Obito while Naruto standing there doing nothing!  


> I'm not even talking about Naruto. Naruto's not relevant to what I'm saying.


I know, but I had to put him here, so my point of view can be clear. Anyhow, we shall see what
will Kishi do. Even though I can't see anything new from Hashi. @.@


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (May 16, 2013)

Hamaru said:


> We've only seen Minato's S/T barrier work on non-continuous chakra attacks, not solid objects like a meteor, or Susuanoo blade. Wait until he uses his jutsu on such a thing before claiming he can.


Why wouldn't the barrier work on solid objects. Its not preta path, its a space-time technique. If Hiraishin can warp physical objects and S/T barrier works on the same principle than there's absolutely no reason why it couldn't warp meteors.


----------



## ShinAkuma (May 16, 2013)

Most powerful? Probably not at least in terms of how power is usually gauged. ie:destructive potential/giant jutsus.

However he is almost certainly the most dangerous Hokage since his specialized techniques could defeat most opponents regardless of power levels.

So while he can't create forests or meteors or destroy countries he is probably the most dangerous ninja in combat.


----------



## Edo Madara (May 16, 2013)

Minato is the fastest man in Naruniverse


----------



## BatoKusanagi (May 16, 2013)

Edo Hashi > all.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 16, 2013)

It was an interception feat. The speed is not an issue.

What makes the feat impressive is the magnitude of the attack though. 

And yeah, I am starting to think that Minato might be on Hashirama's level as well. 

This chapter showed that Minato is stronger than all the living shinobi on earth combined.


----------



## BankaiLegend3135 (May 16, 2013)

Are people_* already*_ forgetting that Minato just trolled a continental buster?


----------



## lain2501 (May 16, 2013)

If he was the strongest he wouldn't have died vs Obito...


----------



## Syntaxis (May 16, 2013)

Define "strongest"? 

Could Minato beat Hashirama? Perhaps. If the latter doesn't know s/t ninjutsu, Minato might just simply teleport everything he can throw at him to another dimension or location.

But in raw "who can move a mountain first?" power it's probably Hashirama.

Can Minato single-handedly defeat a complete ninja village? Probably not.
Can Hashirama do it? Yes.

Can Minato tank literally everything you can throw at him? Yes.
Can Hashirama do it? Probably not.

Can Minato defeat Kyuubi one on one and survive? Probably not.
Can Hashirama do it? Yes.

Can Minato blitz the fastest of the fastest? Yep.
Hashirama? Nope.

They each have their strengths and lesser strengths. Doesn't matter, really. They're all on one team now.


----------



## Rosi (May 16, 2013)

Of course there is!  S/T abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Firepower/Mokuton/other shit. What can Hashirama do if Minato just speedblitzes him


----------



## BankaiLegend3135 (May 16, 2013)

Syntaxis said:


> Define "strongest"?
> 
> Could Minato beat Hashirama? Perhaps. If the latter doesn't know s/t ninjutsu, Minato might just simply teleport everything he can throw at him to another dimension or location.
> 
> ...



Wait, you think Minato can't solo a village when he's the only ninja in the manga with a flee on sight order from an entire village? 

 Come on, now


----------



## puklica01 (May 16, 2013)

He dont need to be the strongest, but he is definatly the only one who can tank that kind of technik without any consecvences.
Second to that he has awsome fighting style + he has good deductive skills= wich would allow him screw even stornger characters. 
But in the end power or skill means nothing. Depends on what Kishi wanna do with the char.


----------



## Ice Cream (May 16, 2013)

For some reason I see similar threads being made whenever the other edo kages show their feats when entering the war.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 16, 2013)

Hashirama will probably be the strongest of the Edo Hokages.


----------



## pimpnamedslipback (May 16, 2013)

puklica01 said:


> He dont need to be the strongest, but he is definatly the only one who can tank that kind of technik without any consecvences.
> Second to that he has awsome fighting style + he has good deductive skills= wich would allow him screw even stornger characters.
> *But in the end power or skill means nothing. Depends on what Kishi wanna do with the char.*


I have to agree with this. Hashi is still the God of Shinobi though...
One thing about Minato's technique, he has to tag anything he wants to teleport right? So against a huge bombardment of attacks he obviously can't just teleport everything


----------



## Maunten (May 16, 2013)

According to feats in a battle there is no reason why minato should be bested by another character atm, the only way to defeat him is if your movement is faster than his reaction time, which as displayed in his encounter with ei and tobi, is pretty ridiculous


----------



## pimpnamedslipback (May 16, 2013)

lol what if you move one of his tags x)


----------



## Maunten (May 16, 2013)

Syntaxis said:


> Define "strongest"?
> 
> Could Minato beat Hashirama? Perhaps. If the latter doesn't know s/t ninjutsu, Minato might just simply teleport everything he can throw at him to another dimension or location.
> 
> ...


 Minato can single handedly defeat a village, he has shown similar feats during the war arch and his presence was known to cause immediate retreat.

How do you define defeating the kyubi? Minato as far as I know is the second person in naruto history to divide a tailed beast the way the sage did, he drastically weakened kurama on an almost permanent basis hashirama can subdue kurama but only by calming him, if it was not for that ability hashi definitely would lose to kurama, he is a nuclear power house,  noone is tanking an unsluaght from kurama long term.

The fact is even when I was praising minato a few months ago I still underestimated him, I estimated his chakra reserves based on the size of the objects he teleported during the kurama village attack arch.

What I forgot to consider was for most of that night before he got ambushed he had been pouring chakra into kushina's seal so that she could give brith safely, minatos ftg chakra consumption is directly linked to the size of the object he teleports,  I estimated that kurama and bunta are at least (combined 3000 times larger than minato) meaning he could telepprt himself 3000 times before fatigue set in.

Now we see him teleporting a mega bijuu dama from the jubi meaning his immediate chakra reserves are even higher than estimated, that bijuu dama was hundreds of times larger than the 8 tails and he still teleported it. That means he could summon an army of giant toads before he fatigued, and I thought minato's chakra reserves were puny compared to the likes of hashi....



pimpnamedslipback said:


> lol what if you move one of his tags x)



The radius of danger around on of minatos tags is broken at first I thought it was 2 -3 after the last chapter, God knows, also he can sense when his tags are being moved


----------



## Syntaxis (May 16, 2013)

BankaiLegend3135 said:


> Wait, you think Minato can't solo a village when he's the only ninja in the manga with a flee on sight order from an entire village?
> 
> Come on, now



It's not the village that was told to flee on sight, it's individual nins. You can't win vs. Minato 1 on 1, not even 5 on 1 or 10 on 1. But a few hundred against one, with Kage-level nins in the mix?

Remember how a young Bee had the chance to literally gut Minato? He isn't immortal, he's just extremely good. 

Even if he could defeat 500 nins in a village, he'd run out of chakra long before defeating the last one. His chakra reserves weren't as impressive, evident by the fact that even he couldn't use kage bunshin to learn new ninjutsu, something only Naruto could do... even before he had Kyuubi chakra access.


----------



## Hasan (May 16, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I wonder what the hell Sarutobi is thinking....
> 
> He's probably like well shit I might as just grab this lawn chair over here and watch



Probably. 



The Prodigy said:


> Why do i get the feeling we're gonna have a "Is it possible that*enter Hokages name* is the strongest Hokage?" thread every week?





Ice Cream said:


> For some reason I see similar threads being made whenever the other edo kages show their feats when entering the war.



That you can expect to happen, heh.


----------



## bearzerger (May 16, 2013)

Why is this even up for debate? Hashirama is by far the strongest hokage. The only one to surpass Hashirama will be Naruto.


----------



## Nuuskis (May 16, 2013)

He might be fastest Hokage, but strongest? No.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (May 16, 2013)

Syntaxis said:


> It's not the village that was told to flee on sight, it's individual nins. You can't win vs. Minato 1 on 1, not even 5 on 1 or 10 on 1. But a few hundred against one, with Kage-level nins in the mix?
> 
> Remember how a young Bee had the chance to literally gut Minato? He isn't immortal, he's just extremely good.
> 
> Even if he could defeat 500 nins in a village, he'd run out of chakra long before defeating the last one. His chakra reserves weren't as impressive, evident by the fact that even he couldn't use kage bunshin to learn new ninjutsu, something only Naruto could do... even before he had Kyuubi chakra access.


So according to you, Sasuke is more poweful *without *MS and *without* Oro's abilities than the 4th? Because that's what would have to be the case for this statement to even make sense. Did Sasuke run out of chakra "long before defeating the last one"? The fact that he can go toe to toe with the most powerful tailed beast in existence at that time says he can solo a village. Can he solo one of the 5 great nations? Probably not. He can certainly solo anything less than that just like Sasori did. 

*No known person* used kage bunshin to learn new jutsu until Kakashi came up with it. This includes Hashirama/Madara, who we know had far more chakra than Naruto did at that time, so your assertion means absolutely nothing. As Madara/Kakashi indicated it's considered wasteful and stupid to use Kage Bunshin in the manner Naruto uses it: Whether he had the chakra for it or not, Minato would never even consider such a thing because he's efficient, not wasteful, and brilliant, rather than stupid. These are the reasons it never even occurred to him to go that route, not some imaginary limit on his chakra reserves.

By feats alone Minato must have a huge chakra supply: Rasengan, Contract Seal, holding in Kurama's seal during Kushina's labor, porting multiple times during the Kyuubi invasion, porting two tailed beast bombs, porting Kurama, summoning Gamabunta, Summoning Frog Scroll, shiki fuin, sealing Kurama in Naruto, sealing his remaining chakra (which was capable of repairing Naruto's seal) and Kushina's chakra into Naruto. That's a lot of shit to take care of in one night.

Does he have enough chakra for sage mode? Who knows? But it's certainly *possible *at this point, given all we've seen.


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## JPongo (May 16, 2013)

Yes, it is possible.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 16, 2013)

Itachi solos


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## Rosi (May 16, 2013)

Oh the shitstorm that will abound when all the Hokages arrive there  Hashirama fanboys who only started to love him two months ago vs Minato fanboys who love him because he is Kishi's Golden Boy. And the rare prime!Hiruzen and badass!bigot!Tobirama wankers  This will be glorious.


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## Alaude (May 16, 2013)

Nope I don't think that he is the strongest. He's either second or third strongest of them in my opinion I myself think that Tobirama is the second strongest.


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## JPongo (May 16, 2013)

It's a 4-team playoff.

Minato > Hiruzen
Hashi > Tobirama

Finals! Minato v Hashi.

Glorious indeed.


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## crisler (May 16, 2013)

no.

i dunno what's so difficult to understand about the manga logic.

sasuke -> orochimaru -> itachi -> madara
naruto -> jiraiya -> minato -> hashirama

is this so difficult? 

minato may have had the potential to reach the higher level. i actually think minato and itachi were set by kishi as those that could've reached higher level only to give up for their successors. 

but that also means in the end they were weaker than the final monsters that  only their successors will surpass.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

Syntaxis said:


> It's not the village that was told to flee on sight, it's individual nins. You can't win vs. Minato 1 on 1, not even 5 on 1 or 10 on 1. But a few hundred against one, with Kage-level nins in the mix



No, the ninja with KB + A even said they were supposed to flee on sight. All ninja were told to flee on sight. The kages Onoki and 3rd Raikage feared him.



> Remember how a young Bee had the chance to literally gut Minato? He isn't immortal, he's just extremely good.



And remember a young Minato had the chance to literally scramble the brains of Killer Bee? But ye, you go ahead and take a stab to the head, Ill take a stab to the gut over that any day. 



> Even if he could defeat 500 nins in a village, he'd run out of chakra long before defeating the last one. His chakra reserves weren't as impressive, evident by the fact that even he couldn't use kage bunshin to learn new ninjutsu, something only Naruto could do... even before he had Kyuubi chakra access.



Kakashi couldnt do KB to learn new ninjutsu, nor Kisame, Jiraiya, and countless others.


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## Danzio (May 16, 2013)

Minato died too young to reach his full potential so, although great I do not think he's the strongest Hokage.


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## shintebukuro (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:
			
		

> No, the ninja with KB + A even said they were supposed to flee on sight. All ninja were told to flee on sight. The kages Onoki and 3rd Raikage feared him.



Did A and B flee on sight?


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

JPongo said:


> It's a 4-team playoff.
> 
> Minato > Hiruzen
> Hashi > Tobirama
> ...



Cause Tobirama isn't > or = to Minato


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## pimpnamedslipback (May 16, 2013)

Maunten said:


> The radius of danger around on of minatos tags is broken at first I thought it was 2 -3 after the last chapter, God knows, also he can sense when his tags are being moved


wat...? not sure if i understand...could you break it down for me


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## Toonz (May 16, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Hashirama Is the strongest of the Edo Hokages.



Fixed


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 16, 2013)

I'm at a computer so we gone now put this in perspective.


Minato vs. Kyuubi part 1.

Hashirama vs. Kyuubi part 1.

All that talk regarding Minato possessing the potential to redirect attacks/Bijudama back on it's attackers. 

Hashirama did just that.


Madara was so teed on Hashirama's actions above, that he created a special attack just for yours truly.

Their feats don't even compare.

Minato just stopped an attack from a Biju.

Hashirama tanked several from a Susano enhanced Biju.


Their feats don't even compare

Wifie helping Minato to seal the Kyuubi with a forbidden jutsu that kills it's wielder

Madara helping Kyuubi to remain unsealed/Unscathed from a monstrosity that dwarfs him in size.


And the later failed.

So let's tally the score.

Minato died against the same monster, with assistance, that Hashi managed to solo along with the strongest Uchiha?

Yea, this isn't a serious debate.

Hashirama actually woke up the next day.

Minato on the other hand......

Regarding Minato's recent feat? Clap and applause, but let's not pretend he hasn't done something similar.

The other EDO Hokage haven't even made it to the battle field this thread is not only preemptive, it isn't much of a discussion.


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## JPongo (May 16, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Cause Tobirama isn't > or = to Minato



So a less feated Tobirama is > than Minato?

Is that your infallible logic?


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## Synn (May 16, 2013)




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## Ƶero (May 16, 2013)

shintebukuro said:


> Did A and B flee on sight?



After that scuffle, A thought *no one* could *ever* surpass Minato. If Bee could've handled Minato he wouldn't have said that. Then Bee after just hearing Minato's name started trembling with fear.
When will you fools learn. Minato > Your fave.


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## CyberianGinseng (May 16, 2013)

I think we need to distinguish between deadly and powerful. 

Minato lacks the chakra level to generate the levels of power or for the amount of time that Hashirama can. However, it only takes one *small *modification to what we already know about Minato to make him the *deadliest *shinobi on the battlefield. *Partial teleportation.* That gives him the ability to kill anybody, including 3rd Raikage, ALL Susanoo users, Hashirama, and any existing shinobi. We *may *get that realization as soon as next chapter.


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## Star★Platinum (May 16, 2013)

My take on this chapter:


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## city (May 16, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I'm at a computer so we gone now put this in perspective.
> 
> 
> Minato vs. Kyuubi part 1.
> ...



Ok, I'm curious about the bolded.  Why is it being held against Minato that he _intentionally died _against a Biju without even trying to put up a fight?

Minato stated that defeating/killing Kurama would put the Hidden Leaf village in a position to be attacked by other villages, implying that he could have beat it.  He literally threw no offensive attack against Kurama and intentionally performed a jutsu that would kill him purely for the sake of the village.

I've never understood why people hold that against him as if he tried to fight back and lost.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 16, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> I think we need to distinguish between deadly and powerful.
> 
> Minato lacks the chakra level to generate the levels of power or for the amount of time that Hashirama can. However, it only takes one *small *modification to what we already know about Minato to make him the *deadliest *shinobi on the battlefield. *Partial teleportation.* That gives him the ability to kill anybody, including 3rd Raikage, ALL Susanoo users, Hashirama, and any existing shinobi. We *may *get that realization as soon as next chapter.



Deadliest implicates one possessing the most potential to kill.

But his strongest jutsu is a rasengan, not the most deadliest attack in the manga.

I love your last sentence, as it essentially debunks your entire paragraph.

So Minato is the most deadliest shinobi based off something he not only hasn't shown, but hasn't remotely indicated to possess?

Yea that's smart.


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## JPongo (May 16, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Wifie helping Minato to seal the Kyuubi with a forbidden jutsu that kills it's wielder.
> 
> Minato died against the same monster, with assistance, that Hashi managed to solo along with the strongest Uchiha?
> 
> ...



So to prove your point you left out the very important detail that Minato "permanently" sealed within himself half of the kyuubi's chakra to assist Naruto in gaining control of the other half.  He didn't want the "wifie" to seal it within herself because it will respawn and destroy the balance.

He died willingly as a sacrifice to have his wife see Naruto, he himself help Naruto, and empower Naruto in one fell swoop.

Oh, and didn't Hashi's wifie Mito seal the kyuubi within herself to help her hubby out?

And regarding Minato's feat, imagine spamming that ability against an opponent.  It's ridiculous, isn't it?


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## Descent of the Lion (May 16, 2013)

Theoretically he could just ST a rasengan to their collective faces.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 16, 2013)

city said:


> Ok, I'm curious about the bolded.  Why is it being held against Minato that he _intentionally died _against a Biju without even trying to put up a fight?


So Minato had something in his arsenal, note HIS ARSENAL, capable of harming the Kyuubi outsided of shiki fujin.

Pardon me if I don't necessarily see Kushina resealing the Kyuubi within herself and dying, as Minato's power.



> Minato stated that defeating/killing Kurama would put the Hidden Leaf village in a position to be attacked by other villages, implying that he could have beat it.  He literally threw no offensive attack against Kurama and intentionally performed a jutsu that would kill him purely for the sake of the village.


Implying he could have beat it? You serious?

Sigh, let's reread shall we.

First thing going against your theory. Is Minato's chakara level at the time.

What you were alluding too, IS KUSHINA KILLING THE KYUUBI by resealing it within herself and dying.


Even Minato words confirm that the only other option Minato had for dealing with the Kyuubi was the above.



> I've never understood why people hold that against him as if he tried to fight back and lost.


Let me ask you what do you transcribe as fighting back?

What is this?

It's not as if "people" are ignorant in regards to Minato's arsenal.

Him not being able to do much to the Kyuubi outside of shiki fujin isn't a well kept secret.

Kishina dying with the beast, being his NONE SUICIDE OPTION, isn't a big secrete neither.

He's had several scenes to showcase a none suicide option greater than the Rasengan and he's yet to reveal such.

Edit: Jpongo read this.


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## shintebukuro (May 16, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> After that scuffle, A thought *no one* could *ever* surpass Minato. If Bee could've handled Minato he wouldn't have said that. Then Bee after just hearing Minato's name started trembling with fear.
> When will you fools learn. Minato > Your fave.



1. I don't know what you're even responding to. The "flee on sight" rule was not given to all shinobi or else A and B would have ran. That was my only point.

2. Bee was not trembling with fear at Minato's name. That doesn't make any sense, and proves to me your level of comprehension as well as your age.


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

JPongo said:


> So a less feated Tobirama is > than Minato?
> 
> Is that your infallible logic?



I also said "or = to" 

and Tobirama is innocent til proven guilty


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## Ƶero (May 16, 2013)

shintebukuro said:


> 1. I don't know what you're even responding to. The "flee on sight" rule was not given to all shinobi or else A and B would have ran. That was my only point.
> 
> 2. Bee was not trembling with fear at Minato's name. That doesn't make any sense, and proves to me your level of comprehension as well as your age.



I must've mixed you up with some other idiot. Oh well.

1. I was responding to the guy that said Bee couldve gutted Minato. Yeah I couldn't care less about your point. A is the kind of guy who wouldnt flee even if given the order. Your point is moot.

2. 
What is this
Step back, we got a badass over here.
Bottom left, bee is trembling after Naruto mentions his dad. Minato scared the shit out of Killer bee. Canon.


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## Kaiser (May 16, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Minato died against the same monster, with assistance, that Hashi managed to solo along with the strongest Uchiha?
> 
> Yea, this isn't a serious debate.
> 
> ...


You do realise that in the contrary of Hashirama who was fighting in a neutral location, Minato was fighting in Konoha, so had not only to defeat the Kyubi, but to save everyone at the same time, right? And eventhen, he still had no intention to defeat the Kyubi, but use his power instead for the sake of the future


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## blue fox (May 16, 2013)

I am thinking that Minato will say something like-

"I modeled my personality/mind after Hiruzen, my jutsu after Tobirama, and my life after Hashirama."  

, if he is ever brought up to be the most powerful, which I am doubtful about...


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## city (May 16, 2013)

> So Minato had something in his arsenal, note HIS ARSENAL, capable of harming the Kyuubi outsided of shiki fujin.
> 
> Pardon me if I don't necessarily see Kushina resealing the Kyuubi within herself and dying, as Minato's power.



At what point did I ever state that Kushina was part of Minato's power?  One thing we know, is that Kakashi stated that ninjas in the Hidden Leaf can't become Jonin's unless they can use two different elemental chakra attacks

The entire final part of Rock Lee's diatribe against Sasuke being able to respond to his attack is free action and Rock Lee is indisputably speaking out loud with speech bubbles complete with high speed movement lines.

Just because we haven't seen Minato use other attacks (especially since he hasn't needed to) doesn't mean he can't.  The only time he's ever been hit in a fight we've seen was when he intentionally jumped in front of Kurama to protect baby Naruto.  This whole forum had no problem when Itachi said that obtaining EMS gives birth to a new power right?  Have we seen it yet?



> First thing going against your theory. Is Minato's chakara level at the time.



So nobody has ever stated they were low on chakra yet continued fighting in this manga?



> Him not being able to do much to the Kyuubi outside of shiki fujin isn't a well kept secret.



Hmm.  So when Hiruzen was fighting the Kyuubi and wondered where Minato was, he was basically hoping the guy would show up and.....watch?  Or maybe show up and sacrifice himself?  The guy that picked Minato to be the 4th Hokage needed him for a battle he couldn't do anything in?  Ok.



> He's had several scenes to showcase a none suicide option greater than the Rasengan and he's yet to reveal such



Feel free to provide one scan where Minato needed more than Rasengan and a kunai to defeat his opponent.  Many in this manga don't showcase their strongest attacks until absolutely necessary.  Itachi never used Susanoo until he was about to die from Kirin for example.  

If Minato leaves this war not showing anything else but Rasengan, I'll concede.  But from Kakashi's words, he had to have affinity with at least to elemental natures.  Kakashi also applied that Naruto finished what Minato couldn't (adding elemental chakra into a rasengan).  So we know he can at minimum perform elemental attacks yet hasn't because he hasn't needed at any point that we've seen.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 16, 2013)

Blake said:


> You do realise that in the contrary of Hashirama who was fighting in a neutral location, Minato was fighting in Konoha, so had not only to defeat the Kyubi, but to save everyone at the same time, right?



You also realize that fighting in Konoha meant assistance from it's civilians, right?

The troubleback with your argument is Minato couldn't defeat the Kyuubi without Konoha/Kushina.

Fighting in a neutral location wouldn't have merit positive results for the young Hokage. He doesn't have Hashirama's chakara level or Jutsu.

Being as redirecting a Bijudama back on it's attacker is a theoretical ability not a reality at this point, he'd have nothing to harm the Kyuubi with.


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## Tsukiyo (May 16, 2013)

so far i dont think we have seen that much from each of the kages. but so far i would say that minato may be stronger than the 3rd but not as strong as the 1st.

but i will probably rethink this after a next few chapters


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 16, 2013)

city said:


> At what point did I ever state that Kushina was part of Minato's power?  One thing we know, is that Kakashi stated that ninjas in the Hidden Leaf can't become Jonin's unless they can use two different elemental chakra attacks
> 
> The entire final part of Rock Lee's diatribe against Sasuke being able to respond to his attack is free action and Rock Lee is indisputably speaking out loud with speech bubbles complete with high speed movement lines.
> 
> Just because we haven't seen Minato use other attacks (especially since he hasn't needed to) doesn't mean he can't.  The only time he's ever been hit in a fight we've seen was when he intentionally jumped in front of Kurama to protect baby Naruto.  This whole forum had no problem when Itachi said that obtaining EMS gives birth to a new power right?  Have we seen it yet?


No, it's not an issue of what we haven't seen.

It's an issue of does he even possess such?

And even if he possess such, is it capable of harming the Kyuubi?

And I don't see how "We've only seen him hit intentionally once", has anything to do with the above.

We're discussing Minato's offensive potential, right? His potential to harm the Kyuubi, right?

Let me ask you, how long do you think he could play keep away with the Kyuubi? You are aware that we're talking about the second strongest entity in terms of chakara, right?

You talk about the EMS, to a Sasuke fan, whose regularly expressed his displeasure with potential power threads, that involve him?

People are willing to wait and see what he brings to the table.(Some of them)

They aren't putting him in a class he doesn't belong in, prior to showcasing SUCH POTENTIAL.

And unlike Minato, EMS actually has hints and showcasings of something greater. It's called Perfect Susano.

What Minato is getting is a chance to showcase his full hand.

The same in which Itachi has gotten.

The same in which BOTH EMS USERS are getting.



> So nobody has ever stated they were low on chakra yet continued fighting in this manga?


Continued fighting? Yes.

Successfully is a different story.

Naruto was cited to be low/out of chakara last chapter, and he stayed that way.

Sasuke was cited to be low/out of chakara against big bro, and his performance after Kirin was one of a person low/out of chakara.

Again, were talking about the second strongest entity in terms of chakara.

Being nearly out of chakara, when one doesn't possess a means to harm the other outside of a suicide tech, isn't going to end well for the person almost out of chakara.



> Hmm.  So when Hiruzen was fighting the Kyuubi and wondered where Minato was, he was basically hoping the guy would show up and.....watch?  Or maybe show up and sacrifice himself?  The guy that picked Minato to be the 4th Hokage needed him for a battle he couldn't do anything in?  Ok.


Watch? No.

Help? Yes.

It's not as if Minato isn't a powerful shinobi.

It's not as if Minato doesn't possess something in his arsenal to assist against the Kyuubi, defeat without dying as well, is another story entirely.

I don't see how you're arguing against manga canon here.

We have a panel showcasing Minato's NONE SELF SACRIFICE option, and you clearly overlook it.

Minato at this time, key word, at this time.

Doesn't possess an arsenal capable of defeating the Kyuubi without dying.

That's nothing to be ashamed of.

Lots of shinobi are in his position.

No my fault he actually has it better than most shinobi....

As most shinobi against the Kyuubi would simply die, as they lack shiku fujin.



> Feel free to provide one scan where Minato needed more than Rasengan and a kunai to defeat his opponent.  Many in this manga don't showcase their strongest attacks until absolutely necessary.  Itachi never used Susanoo until he was about to die from Kirin for example.


Again you deflect from the issue.

We aren't talking about defeating any old opponent.

We are talking about defeating the Kyuubi.

I'm not hear to discuss his performance in others bouts.

I'm here to discuss his performance against the being in question.

And Itachi only revealing Susano prior to death is a small sample.

As the rest of the Susano users, including him, now casually pull out in less dire circumstances.

Minato has had his fair share of panel time to showcase more. 

The resurrected Kage's manage to showcase their full arsenal in a few chapters.

But the above is irrelevant, as I'm not concluding Minato doesn't possess more.

I'm concluding that what he currently canonically possesses isn't enough to deal with the Kyuubi.



> If Minato leaves this war not showing anything else but Rasengan, I'll concede.  But from Kakashi's words, he had to have affinity with at least to elemental natures.  Kakashi also applied that Naruto finished what Minato couldn't (adding elemental chakra into a rasengan).  So we know he can at minimum perform elemental attacks yet hasn't because he hasn't needed at any point that we've seen.


And from Kakashi's words, he's never completed an elemental rasengan. Naruto has, and even it was proven to be limited in harming the Kyuubi.

I think you're missing the point.

It's not just enough for Minato to have more.

The more has to prove to be capable of defeating the Kyuubi.


----------



## B.o.t.i (May 16, 2013)

Hashirama's chakra level is decent but he's at the bottom of the list.

rikudou
naruto
nagato
kushina/kushina
killerbee.??
hashi

Havinglarge chakra still get you whopped.No one has attacks that can harm kyuubi.Trying to damage kyuubi is pointless it dont work hashi in the end used his control hax and mito sealed kyuubi thats how much you cant harm kyuubi.He has to be sealed away.

If it was'nt for kushina and naruto. Minato would of just warped kyuubi far away and left him in his rage.I dont know why you think minato get attacks on kyuubi you forget gamabunta choke kyuubi like some cheap hooker. 

Fact is minato's feat wise this shits on hashi pretty much everyone bar rikudou sennin.Dispersing juubi dama so casually like this would be only something rikudou sennin would be expected to do.Minato did it with ease.

Juubi attack was stronger a bigger than anything madara threw at hashi FACT.Minato even saved people at teh same time.

Minato just swatted juubi dama easy.I can make an easy bet here next chapter he's gonna knock juubi down with the juubi dama he just warped.And will probably pin juubi down at some point with more kunai st haxx and let it transform as he gives naruto the ''gift''

Minato is goku of the series you need to get over it he>everyone.His ST jutsu are beyond stupidly broken the amount of bullshit attacks kishi can make up for him.


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## Toonz (May 16, 2013)

B.o.t.i said:


> Hashirama's chakra level is decent ...





Stop reading here...


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

phrozen, why did you just compare a regular Bijuu blast to the Juubi's Bijuu blast? We saw how the Juubi's was atleast 100x the size of KB's.


----------



## JPongo (May 16, 2013)

Because they wanna downlplay this massive Minato feat!


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

B.o.t.i said:


> Hashirama's chakra level is decent but he's at the bottom of the list.



Talk about an understatement.



> rikudou
> naruto
> nagato
> kushina/kushina
> ...



Rikudo having the most chakra is a given. But to say Kushina, Killerbee chakras are anywhere near Hashi's level, let alone greater... Nagato is the closest thing to Naruto, and Hashirama, but even he still falls short.

I'd wager Hashirama has about as much chakra as Naruto does.


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## Arles Celes (May 16, 2013)

We all know that Obito's kamui also can "tank" Juubi's bijuudamas.

If Obito survived Juubi's bijuudama thanks to his intangibility would that mean that we were underestimating his power level?

Minato teleported a 100% Kurama and 100% Kurama was bigger than the Juubidama. For s/t ninjutsu it doesn't matter how powerful a projectile is as s/t doesn't work as a shield but it just teleports away the attack.
It all depends on size rather than power. And since Minato already teleported huge objects in the past it is hardly anything new. If he teleported a mountain or something the size of Hashi's buddha then it would greatly hype his chakra capacity as teleporting such objects must require even more chakra.

All the hokages will soon have their time to shine so lets not make definite judgements till all of them show fully their abilities.


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## CyberianGinseng (May 16, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Deadliest implicates one possessing the most potential to kill.
> 
> But his strongest jutsu is a rasengan, not the most deadliest attack in the manga.
> 
> ...


I clearly indicate I'm speculating by stating what would need to be shown when I say " it only takes one small *modification*" in order for the paragraph you claim I debunked to be confirmed. Where could you possibly believe that modification was going to come from if not the future as the last sentence indicates? Why would that be something I need to state out loud to someone claiming, as you often do, to be Liquid Braino? 

I never said it was something that already happened. Perhaps you thought it was going to come out of someone's ass like the nonsense you pulled out of your ass when you claimed I debunked something I didn't say. Can't debunk something that hasn't happened yet. For you to *pretend *I tried to pass speculation off as cannon is absurd. Get your facts straight before you *bother *to move your fingertips to type nonsense.


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## city (May 16, 2013)

Arles Celes said:


> Minato teleported a 100% Kurama and 100% Kurama was bigger than the Juubidama.



We're not reading the same manga  The Juubidama was probably the largest attack we've seen in this manga.


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## ZeroWolf123 (May 16, 2013)

Naw hes definetly the best hokage, but the strongest? No that's Hashirama


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

How I see the rankings for Hokages from strongest to weakest after it's all said and done.

1. Hashirama
2. Tobirama
3. Minato
4. Hiruzen
6. Tsunade

does Danzou count? Technically he was a Hokage at a point  ?


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

Arles Celes said:


> *Minato teleported a 100% Kurama and 100% Kurama was bigger than the Juubidama*. For s/t ninjutsu it doesn't matter how powerful a projectile is as s/t doesn't work as a shield but it just teleports away the attack.
> It all depends on size rather than power. And since Minato already teleported huge objects in the past it is hardly anything new. If he teleported a mountain or something the size of Hashi's buddha then it would greatly hype his chakra capacity as teleporting such objects must require even more chakra.
> 
> All the hokages will soon have their time to shine so lets not make definite judgements till all of them show fully their abilities.



Are you serious right now? You definetely don't read the manga. Kyuubi blast was smaller than Bunta, while Juubi's was 100x bigger than the Kirabi. 

And Juubi's is bigger than Hiashi Buddha considering it was only a bit bigger than the Kyuubi.


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## Trojan (May 16, 2013)

B.o.t.i said:


> Hashirama's chakra level is decent but he's at the bottom of the list.
> 
> rikudou
> naruto
> ...



Where is the 3rd Raikage? 
The guy has at least 3 time the chakra that Hashi has!


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## Trojan (May 16, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> How I see the rankings for Hokages from strongest to weakest after it's all* said and done.*
> 
> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Tobirama
> ...



Do you mean in the Manga? 
because if so, then Tobirama is absolutely the weakest by far. the only feat he has
is defeating Izuna. He has no real hype other than being the strongest in his time from Danzo. 
and even for the current time he almost irrelevant. Hashi has Madara, Minato his son, and students and B. Hiruzen almost to every one. lol Tobirama? None.


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## HoriMaori (May 16, 2013)

Minato's feats from chapter 630 change nothing in regards to Minato. We knew he could do all that. We knew he was the fastest and expected him to arrive first.

If anything, 630 just buffed EdoTensei chakra capacity becuase Minato looked unphased after S/T Barriering that Juubidama.


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Do you mean in the Manga?
> because if so, then Tobirama is absolutely the weakest by far. the only feat he has
> is defeating Izuna. He has no real hype other than being the strongest in his time from Danzo.
> and even for the current time he almost irrelevant. Hashi has Madara, Minato his son, and students and B. Hiruzen almost to every one. lol Tobirama? None.



Selective reading much.

What I stated was:



The Prodigy said:


> How I see the rankings for Hokages from strongest to weakest *after it's all said and done.*



^Clearly those were my simple predictions in the VERY END, not right now. And lol at Tobirama being below Hiruzen and Tsunade.

And the creator of the Edo Tensei is irrelevant? The guy whose jutsu is currently butt fucking the world is irrelevant?! No hype? You mean other than making Sasuke, fucking Orochimaru, Juugo, lolSuigetsu all feel threatened at the simple raise of his voice and simply the lift of a FINGER?!? The same  guy that Hashirama had to spike his chakra enough to practically destroy a room under their feet just to calm him down? The guy that can resist Edo Tensei's control bar Hashi's dna being used to strengthen it? This guy your saying is irrelevant and has no hype?


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> Minato's feats from chapter 630 change nothing in regards to Minato. We knew he could do all that. We knew he was the fastest and expected him to arrive first.
> 
> If anything, 630 just buffed EdoTensei chakra capacity becuase Minato looked unphased after S/T Barriering that Juubidama.



Unlimited Chakra



> 1.not limited; unrestricted; unconfined: unlimited trade.
> 
> 2. boundless; infinite; vast: the unlimited skies.
> 
> 3. without any qualification or exception; unconditional.



By definition Mizukage nor Muu have unlimited chakra


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## Trojan (May 16, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Selective reading much.
> 
> What I stated was:
> 
> ...



Because if that I asked. @.@
lol for what? Yes Tobirama is below Hiruzen there is no question in that. I faild to see what's
so funny about that fact?
Kabuto talks

- I said "almost" 


> You mean other than making Sasuke, fucking Orochimaru, Juugo, lolSuigetsu all feel threatened at the simple raise of his voice and simply the lift of a FINGER?!?



do you even know what does this mark "!!" mean?
I don't think so. So just to let you know

Exclamation mark





> An exclamation mark usually shows strong feeling, such as* surprise, anger or joy*.



I hope that's helped you to know its meaning. 


> The same  guy that Hashirama had to spike his chakra enough to practically destroy a room under their feet just to calm him down?


So? we know Tobirama's limit in power, since we knew he's weaker than Kin. So perhaps
he's Sannin level or so. 


> The guy that can resist Edo Tensei's control bar Hashi's dna being used to strengthen it?



Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. That's all cool, but someone has to remember that's his edo is weaker
than Oro's in part one. If Oro's edo made Hashi and Tobirama look like fodder, I wonder what
will Tobirama's do to the Shiniobi who are already fodder. lol 

unless you think he can summon someone FAR MUCH stronger than Hashi to the point 
even with less than 25% of his power will make him stronger than the average Shinobi. lol 

anyway, just forget about it. We shall find out soon. 

Thanks and farewell.


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## HoriMaori (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Unlimited Chakra
> 
> 
> 
> By definition Mizukage nor Muu have unlimited chakra



From a duped thread



HoriMaori said:


> What is your point? Unlimited for their capacity?
> 
> Theorictal scenario: If in life, a persons charka reserves might be able to hold 100 chakra (made up measurement). When they are EdoTensei'd does that mean their chakra reserves can now hold up to 1000 or even inifinite no cap (increased/maxed out overall capacity) or will it mean that their 100 chakra would never deplete?
> 
> ...


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## Senju Leader (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Unlimited Chakra
> 
> 
> 
> B*y definition Mizukage nor Muu have unlimited chakra*



I think those two are the exception to the rule, rather then the norm. Most of the evidence points to Edo's having  unlimited chakra. For example we have Itachi spamming MS techs like no tommorow as an edo, compared to when he was alive one Amaterasu would leave him visibly weakend. Also we have Edo Madara spamming various Sasunno and Rinnegan techs that would leave normal Shinobi in the hospital for weeks.

Being an edo gives unlimited chakra, but I think Minato would still be able to teleport the bijuudama with ease even if he was alive.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

The funny thing is, even in your theoretical scenario, you acknowledge that "r will it mean that their 100 chakra would never deplete?". If it never depleted then the Mizukage and Muu wouldnt have ran out of chakra. 

Thanks for making my case though.

@Senju Leader. Itachi did the same amount of MS techniques when he was sick during the Sasuke fight. Madara on the other hand has broken the boundaries between Uchiha and Senju. He is now a combination of both therefore his chakra is automatically stupendous. Shit, remember Nagato? That dude's chakra was unheard of.


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## Shinobi no Kami (May 16, 2013)

im pretty sure that kishi stated recently in jump vs that hashirama along with madara are the strongest or so i have heard so this isnt really a debate.


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## HoriMaori (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The funny thing is, even in your theoretical scenario, you acknowledge that "r will it mean that their 100 chakra would never deplete?". If it never depleted then the Mizukage and Muu wouldnt have ran out of chakra.
> 
> Thanks for making my case though.



Well lets say "deplete and regenrate at such a rate that it seems not to deplete at." So can I have your definition of unlimited chakra in this context rather than a dictionary definition. And maybe some examples to add further understanding

And the Muu and Mizukage scenario is because the Jutsu splits them into two halves of the original whole. That is how those jutsu work


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Because if that I asked. @.@
> lol for what? Yes Tobirama is below Hiruzen there is no question in that. I faild to see what's
> so funny about that fact?
> Kabuto talks
> ...



So then Sasuke, Orochimaru, Juugo, and Suigetsu were surprised or shocked that Tobirama was raising a finger 

Hiruzen is nothing compared to Hashi, Tobi, and Minato. That statement was said by Iruka who talked out of his ass. Seriously Hashi is the God of shinobi, 3rd was only getting hyped for being the Hokage and being old not to mention he was the only Hokage that was alive.

Using your logic Hashi should be weaker than Tobi cause at least Tobirama was killed against the kin gin and the 18 other shinobi. WHereas Hashi was killed by random weeaboos. Watch the KT and KL be flooded with "how the fuck did kin gin beat Tobirama?" threads


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> Well lets say "deplete and regenrate at such a rate that it seems not to deplete at." So can I have your definition of unlimited chakra in this context rather than a dictionary definition. And maybe some examples to add further understanding
> 
> And the Muu and Mizukage scenario is because the Jutsu splits them into two halves of the original whole. That is how those jutsu work



If what your saying is true, then Muu would be able to blast off jinton considering his chakra from both bodies would "regenerate".  Therefore unlimited chakra as stated by you guys, would mean both have their unlimited chakra, by definition.


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## sinjin long (May 16, 2013)

look people as to this "unlimited chakra" debate goin on.

edo tensei merely regenerates the chakra used,it doesn't increase their chakra capacity from when they were alive.

so if they had 100 units of chakra,and use 50,it regens the 50 to bring them back to 100.

it doesn't magically increase total capacity to 300 units....

as I understand it.,semantics & definitons aside, this is an important distinction


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## IchLiebe (May 16, 2013)

Muu and Mizu lowered there chakra capacity.

Minato could be good but he needs to show a big move other than Hiraishin, Rasengan, and seals. He needs a moutain buster.


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## HoriMaori (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If what your saying is true, then Muu would be able to blast off jinton considering his chakra from both bodies would "regenerate".  Therefore unlimited chakra as stated by you guys, would mean both have their unlimited chakra, by definition.



OK. But if Muu split himself into two halves, I'm guessing each half of himslef has half his overall chakra capacity which may not be enough to perform a full powered Jinton. e.g. 
- Muu has 1000 chakra (made up measurement)
- It takes 600 chakra to use a Jinton
- His split bodies only each have 500 chakra, but Edo Tensei replenishes those 500 rapidly

Just a thought. 

So......

What is your definition of unlimited chakra in the context of Edo Tensei?


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## Trojan (May 16, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> im pretty sure that kishi stated recently in jump vs that hashirama along with madara are the strongest or so i have heard so this isnt really a debate.



Never happen. @.@



The Prodigy said:


> So then Sasuke, Orochimaru, Juugo, and Suigetsu were surprised or shocked that Tobirama was raising a finger
> 
> Hiruzen is nothing compared to Hashi, Tobi, and Minato. That statement was said by Iruka who talked out of his ass. Seriously Hashi is the God of shinobi, 3rd was only getting hyped for being the Hokage and being old not to mention he was the only Hokage that was alive.
> 
> Using your logic Hashi should be weaker than Tobi cause at least Tobirama was killed against the kin gin and the 18 other shinobi. WHereas Hashi was killed by random weeaboos. Watch the KT and KL be flooded with "how the fuck did kin gin beat Tobirama?" threads



- lol. No honey they were surprised because Tobirama showed his Intent to kill suddenly. 
- That's your opinion. Which is wrong based on the fact that we have, also Iruka was not talking
about HIS opinion! Oh, btw Hiruzen considered to be as god of shinobi as well. 

- No, Hashi was the strongest in his time and the leader. Tobirama lived that time so he's included in that statement. Not to mention Tobirama's admit that Hashi > him somehow so to speak. and Yes, that's prove that Hashi can be killed against some people who are weaker
than him, NOT as what some geniuses thinks that no one stand a chance and they will be killed no matter what.


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## Bkprince33 (May 16, 2013)

seriously?


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## Seraphiel (May 16, 2013)

All of you saying how Madara and Hashi are all brute force and Minardo is finesse. How does his finesse and Hirashin help him when the area and tags he scattered all get obliterated from a single attack from one of those two? Will be "BAMflash" them? 14 year old Obito was on par when it came to shunshin and Madara casually blocks A's attack while caught of guard.

Please stop.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> OK. But if Muu split himself into two halves, I'm guessing each half of himslef has half his overall chakra capacity which may not be enough to perform a full powered Jinton. e.g.
> - Muu has 1000 chakra (made up measurement)
> - It takes 600 chakra to use a Jinton
> - His split bodies only each have 500 chakra, but Edo Tensei replenishes those 500 rapidly
> ...




Did you not notice how Onoki and Muu had an exchange of ten off Jinton simultaneously? If it takes 600 units of chakra, then he would be depleted after one. If it took him 100 units, then he should have been able to do it when he split.


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Never happen. @.@
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hiruzen's title has obviously gone to shit. or did you miss the part where Hashirama was repeatedly called God of Shinobi in his presence? Not to mention Hiruzen practically had a heart attack when Tobirama and Hashirama bared there fangs. That says enough.

No one stands a chance against Hashi but Madara, Rikudo, EoS characters (quite possibly). Hashirama's death in his young body was clearly a plot device. Tobirama's death was more than likely circumstancial, considering both their deaths occurred before the manga, i'm calling needed deaths without explanation. Even then in part 1 Itachi was easily superior to Hiruzen then, and that's before the powerscale increase, so... yeah


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## HoriMaori (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Did you not notice how Onoki and Muu had an exchange of ten off Jinton simultaneously? If it takes 600 units of chakra, then he would be depleted after one. If it took him 100 units, then he should have been able to do it when he split.



It was just an example to illustrate. I'll stop give you examples so you can FINALLY answer my question:

So again, what is your definition of 'unlimited' chakra in the context of Edo Tensei?


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## JPongo (May 16, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> All of you saying how Madara and Hashi are all brute force and Minardo is finesse. How does his finesse and Hirashin help him when the area and tags he scattered all get obliterated from a single attack from one of those two? Will be "BAMflash" them? 14 year old Obito was on par when it came to shunshin and Madara casually blocks A's attack while caught of guard.
> 
> Please stop.



Shunshin? Take your own advice and please stop.

Quasi-Rikudo Zetsuited Obito was still a beast then and now, yet ran away from Minato.


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## Trojan (May 16, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Hiruzen's title has obviously gone to shit. or did you miss the part where Hashirama was repeatedly called God of Shinobi in his presence? Not to mention Hiruzen practically had a heart attack when Tobirama and Hashirama bared there fangs. That says enough.
> 
> No one stands a chance against Hashi but Madara, Rikudo, EoS characters (quite possibly). Hashirama's death in his young body was clearly a plot device. Tobirama's death was more than likely circumstancial, considering both their deaths occurred before the manga, i'm calling needed deaths without explanation. Even then in part 1 Itachi was easily superior to Hiruzen then, and that's before the powerscale increase, so... yeah



- Nonsense. 
1- If anything, it's Hiruzen who took the title from Hashi since he came after him. 
2- called a hero and had legends about his team.
Hiruzen called as god of Shinobi in Hashi presence. 

- then how they killed him. lol 
- Too bad for you, everything in the manga is plot.  and about Tobirama they defeated him twice
even with his students that's was TOO much for him. while someone like Darui was fighting
them just fine! 

- I don't care about Itachi he has nothing to do here. and Hiruzen is much stronger than him
anyway. We shall see some of Hiruzen's power soon.


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Did you not notice how Onoki and Muu had an exchange of ten off Jinton simultaneously? If it takes 600 units of chakra, then he would be depleted after one. If it took him 100 units, then he should have been able to do it when he split.



Horimaori's logic is good, but the math given the feats from the manga are not.

Imagine a chakra bar, or special bar, energy bar, etc.. in a fighting game. You go to training and set the recovery of it the energy capacity to maximum, then you set the recovery rate to as fast as possible, not exactly instant but still damn fast to say the least. 

A better example would be a marathon runners heart vs a sprinters heart. A marathon runner can easily go forever as far as stamina is concerned, but they suck ass when it come to using a lot of energy in a short burst, thus they'll take longer to recover, likewise a sprinter is an absolute beast in short burst but suck horribly in stamina.

A combination of the two doesnt increase the maximum capacity but the rate at which they can recover.


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## The Prodigy (May 16, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - Nonsense.
> 1- If anything, it's Hiruzen who took the title from Hashi since he came after him.
> 2- called a hero and had legends about his team.
> Hiruzen called as god of Shinobi in Hashi presence.
> ...



You can't take a title of God of SHinobi by simple inheritance. That's silly logic. That has to be earned, and even then Rikudo was considered a legend so Hashi bearing this title makes sense. Hiruzen hasn't earned the title, a simple note of him as Hokage, the oldest Hokage, and his position is all. 

Using part 1 hype to make part 2 hype irrelevant 

Seriously Hiruzen isnt the God of shinobi, was all retconned

My point is it was all circumstancial. We have no clue how it went down nor should it be taken too seriously. SImply a plot statement to hype the kingin brothers. Hirzuen much stronger than Itachi? yeah, okay


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## Deleted member 206107 (May 16, 2013)

possible? i thought he was already....


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## HoriMaori (May 16, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Horimaori's logic is good, but the math given the feats from the manga are not.
> 
> Imagine a chakra bar, or special bar, energy bar, etc.. in a fighting game. You go to training and set the recovery of it the energy capacity to maximum, then you set the recovery rate to as fast as possible, not exactly instant but still damn fast to say the least.
> 
> ...



This. Well said. 

Otherwise Edo Iruka (if he existed) would have more chakra than living Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Obito and every living shinobi.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Imagine a chakra bar, or special bar, energy bar, etc.. in a fighting game. You go to training and set the recovery of it the energy capacity to maximum, then you set the recovery rate to as fast as possible, not exactly instant but still damn fast to say the least.



Now look into the context of the manga. They split their chakra. Both are at 100% of their given chakra. We know Muu can fire off atleast 10 consecutive Jinton in a row, meaning at the least he could do 5 Jinton. When they split, he had no chakra for an extended period of time. By definition, if his chakra was unlimited then he should have been able to atleast do 5 Jinton. However this was not the case.



> A better example would be a marathon runners heart vs a sprinters heart. A marathon runner can easily go forever as far as stamina is concerned, but they suck ass when it come to using a lot of energy in a short burst, thus they'll take longer to recover, likewise a sprinter is an absolute beast in short burst but suck horribly in stamina.
> 
> A combination of the two doesnt increase the maximum capacity but the rate at which they can recover.



This has no correlation with the problem at hand. This is what professors consider "Fluff" in college level papers.



HoriMaori said:


> So again, what is your definition of 'unlimited' chakra in the context of Edo Tensei?



Unlimited chakra means that you can constantly fire off jutsu without losing chakra. I.e if Kakashi was an Edo, he would never get tired when using Kamui. 

However, Iruka would never get tired using his C ranked ninjutsu either. Does this mean hes powerful? Hell no.


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## HoriMaori (May 16, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Now look into the context of the manga. They split their chakra. Both are at 100% of their given chakra. We know Muu can fire off atleast 10 consecutive Jinton in a row, meaning at the least he could do 5 Jinton. When they split, he had no chakra for an extended period of time. By definition, if his chakra was unlimited then he should have been able to atleast do 5 Jinton. However this was not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yay! Finally. So you believe that it regenerates as fast as it is spent, giving the illusion of no end but an upper limit. Pretty much what I said earlier, but you never expressed which of the two options you believed. This is what I have been asking you for a while now. Thanks for finally responding. We can drop the 'no upper limit' angle now, which voids the Edo Iruka example.

So by your logic, why does Edo Muu have 'no chakra' after splitting? Shouldn't it replenish and allow Jinton Spam via two vessels?


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## Elite Uchiha (May 16, 2013)

HoriMaori said:


> Yay! Finally. So you believe that it regenerates as fast as it is spent, giving the illusion of no end but an upper limit. Pretty much what I said earlier, but you never expressed which of the two options you believed. This is what I have been asking you for a while now. Thanks for finally responding. We can drop the 'no upper limit' angle now, which voids the Edo Iruka example.



Using the special bar example. You have a set special bar, but using techniques will not drain it. That is, by definition, unlimited.



> So by your logic, why does Edo Muu have 'no chakra' after splitting? Shouldn't it replenish and allow Jinton Spam via two vessels?



I do not believe Muu has unlimited chakra, I am arguing against it


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## Kyuubi Naruto (May 16, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> other than Tobirama, they are not far away from Hashi's hype. Hiruzen said to be the strongest
> and the god of shinobi and the professor. Minato said to be unbeatable/unsurpassed. the Savior. ..etc.
> 
> I doubt it, unlike the others Hashi already show his full power, and he hardly defeated EMS Madara I don't see how is possible to the weaker Hashi (because of the edo) to defeat the stronger Madara! Hashi should be defeated so Naruto can prove that he surpass them. There is absolutely no point of making them defeat Madara and Obito while Naruto standing there doing nothing!
> ...



A few problems here. 

Hiruzen was said to be the strongest by Iruka, which was said to a child, at the same time Hiruzen isn't in his prime and also Hiruzen himself said that a shinobi that can stand up to Oro doesn't exist in Konoha when he attacked, likely himself included and this was in reference to when they were talking about Minato. He was hinting that Minato could. He was called the Professor but the main reason he was called that is because he could deal with any jutsu, that's the correct translation. Again even Hiruzen himself doubted his strength. Minato wasn't said to be unbeatable either in this manga. The difference here is that Hashirama's hype his escalated severely during part 2 compared to the others and as the characters became stronger things have changed, his hype however grows. As for actual facts his hype seems to be the highest out of all the Kages. Like I said, his strength was so vast people thought it was as a fairy tale. He's got the most hype and the others haven't come near that yet in this series. 

And Hashirama didn't even show his full power, we didn't even see most of the fight. They fought each other and then immediately mid-fight the battle switched to the end of the fight so the majority of it wasn't seen. See, the main problem is people are assuming Hashirama's weaker while Madara's stronger and that's not even the full truth. What people forget is that when Madara was weakened and fled underground Hashirama's strength continued to grow. He met Mito and along with that he gained 5 extra Bijuu and was passing them out like Pokemon cards. Madara was weakened but Hashirama became even stronger since the last Madara fight. With that said it's completely possible he'd be able to defeat Madara if the time comes since we have no idea what all he did against Madara and the fact that he kept getting stronger. 

Madara will end up being beaten and whoever the final villain is will be said to be stronger than any opponent in the manga. All Naruto would have to do is enter a new mode with his new strength and end up beating them and he'll prove he's surpassed them. It's not that hard.


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## Golden Circle (May 17, 2013)

Hey guys, what's going on in this thread? 




He's only the "strongest Hokage" because Mads isn't one.  Com aht meh broes.


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## The Prodigy (May 17, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Now look into the context of the manga. They split their chakra. Both are at 100% of their given chakra. We know Muu can fire off atleast 10 consecutive Jinton in a row, meaning at the least he could do 5 Jinton. When they split, he had no chakra for an extended period of time. By definition, if his chakra was unlimited then he should have been able to atleast do 5 Jinton. However this was not the case.
> 
> 
> 
> This has no correlation with the problem at hand. This is what professors consider "Fluff" in college level papers.



Perhaps it takes Muu longer after splitting his body to recover for some reason? EIther ways, Muu is the exception because his jutsu isn't simply another kage bushin.

I don't see any professors around, nor do I see any universities 

I did forget to finish my point though...

point is marathon runner is like a dead man, sprinter like one that's alive.

Goku couldn't use ssj3 while on earth (training up to it, nor for prolonged periods of time). It's NOT shooting past the capacity limit that I'm trying to stress here, but it's the part that in a dead body which has no limit on energy as far as stamina is concerned, the dead body is still limited to the capacity. Now make marathon man (dead body) and sprinter (human soul or what have you) and you get a human being in their peak physical condition because they can repeatedly use their fullest capacity at a rate much faster than they could when they were simply human.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 17, 2013)

CyberianGinseng said:


> I clearly indicate I'm speculating by stating what would need to be shown when I say " it only takes one small *modification*" in order for the paragraph you claim I debunked to be confirmed. Where could you possibly believe that modification was going to come from if not the future as the last sentence indicates? Why would that be something I need to state out loud to someone claiming, as you often do, to be Liquid Braino?


You said you clearly indicated to be speculating, but I'm afraid such isn't true.

The only thing you stated is "it only takes one small modification to what we already know about Minato to make him the deadliest shinobi on the battlefield."

Before proclaiming it allowing him to kill anybody.

And your last sentence.

"We may get that realization as soon as next chapter"

Is ambiguous.

You used MAY, but the may only applies to the stipulation "as soon as next chapter"

In other words the "May" only refers to "Partial teleportation" coming next chapter.

There's nothing in your short, short paragraph to indicate you were speculating, good sir.



> I never said it was something that already happened. Perhaps you thought it was going to come out of someone's ass like the nonsense you pulled out of your ass when you claimed I debunked something I didn't say. Can't debunk something that hasn't happened yet. For you to *pretend *I tried to pass speculation off as cannon is absurd. Get your facts straight before you *bother *to move your fingertips to type nonsense.


You never said it was something that already happened, but that's kind of implied don't you think? Considering it never happened.

If you weren't so focus on the word "Debunk"

You'd notice the portion at the end of one of my sentences.

"So Minato is the most deadliest shinobi based off something he not only hasn't shown, *but hasn't remotely indicated to possess*?"

The bold is the issue I ultimately have you your entry not the speculating portions.

And your entry wasn't exactly AS CRYSTAL CLEAR as you are proclaiming besides the "Minato the most deadliest shinobi" portion.


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## Elite Uchiha (May 17, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Perhaps it takes Muu longer after splitting his body to recover for some reason? EIther ways, Muu is the exception because his jutsu isn't simply another kage bushin.



Now there are exceptions. Let me guess, Mizukage was an exception too 



> Goku couldn't use ssj3 while on earth (training up to it, nor for prolonged periods of time). It's NOT shooting past the capacity limit that I'm trying to stress here, but it's the part that in a dead body which has no limit on energy as far as stamina is concerned, the dead body is still limited to the capacity. Now make marathon man (dead body) and sprinter (human soul or what have you) and you get a human being in their peak physical condition because they can repeatedly use their fullest capacity at a rate much faster than they could when they were simply human.



I dont even know what to say to this


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## KnightGhost (May 17, 2013)

ill just wait for the chapter.

I thought minato had alot of tards but this somthing else im seeing now

Hashi beat Madara with Perfect susnaoo+Kuuybi AMORED

Minato struggled against one eyed 14 year old obito(his STUDENT) with just a chain

then needed help from his wife beating the kyuubi but still ended up dead.

But your telling me that Minato>Hashi?

Minato has no fans ITS A MENTAL DISEASE


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## The Prodigy (May 17, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Now there are exceptions. Let me guess, Mizukage was an exception too



Oh yeah!! I forgot about him, I could've used him too 



> I dont even know what to say to this



Well, you did ask for it


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## Trojan (May 17, 2013)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> A few problems here.
> 
> Hiruzen was said to be the strongest by Iruka, which was said to a child, at the same time Hiruzen isn't in his prime and also Hiruzen himself said that a shinobi that can stand up to Oro doesn't exist in Konoha when he attacked, likely himself included and this was in reference to when they were talking about Minato. He was hinting that Minato could. He was called the Professor but the main reason he was called that is because he could deal with any jutsu, that's the correct translation. Again even Hiruzen himself doubted his strength. Minato wasn't said to be unbeatable either in this manga. The difference here is that Hashirama's hype his escalated severely during part 2 compared to the others and as the characters became stronger things have changed, his hype however grows. As for actual facts his hype seems to be the highest out of all the Kages. Like I said, his strength was so vast people thought it was as a fairy tale. He's got the most hype and the others haven't come near that yet in this series.
> 
> ...



1- Iruka did NOT said "In my opinion," so saying it said by Iruka has no value, because it does
not matter who said it if it's fact. For example, if some child said there is the Sun, or the president said it, 
is there a different? No.  Also, saying it's stated to children has no effect, why?
because it's supposed to be a history class, why would he lie to them about their history? Not to
mention that Hiruzen was there and he did not say "Oh no, stop lying to the children Iruke,
Hashirama-Sama is much stronger than me!" instead he said to him not to use the past tense!!
did I mention that Hiruzen is Hashirama & Tobirama's student? 

Ok. you stated "*He was called the Professor but the main reason he was called that is because he could deal with any jutsu
, that's the correct translation*. " So, do you see where it's said that Hashi's jutsus are excluded? because I can't see it! 

About him doubting his power, that's only while being old, I have no doubt that he's not the
strongest as an old man. So we agree in this? 
About Hashi's power being too strong, that doesn't matter because we should see Hiruzen
as the strongest as it's stated, So the stronger Hashi become THE STRONGER HIRUZEN BE.  
Hashi CANNOT be stronger in this based on his current feat because he's DEAD so he had
all of that before. However, if he somehow learned something stronger now then, yes he'll be
stronger because he did not have it before, so it does not count with that statement. 

about Minato, that what I have read here. 

I assume like any other one you will say it's about his speed? 

*************
Holding my breath. 
**************

2- Hashi has something stronger than Buddha? Hard to believe. 
and Madara contain the Rinngan and Hashi's wood when he was living as a rat. 
Also, I'm curious to know from where you came up with the 5 biju? Not as if it matters of
course since he can't fight with them! 

3- But there is no more left other than Madara and Obito. lol 

I think I have to take a 	vacation after this post. ~.~


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## Kyuubi Naruto (May 17, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- Iruka did NOT said "In my opinion," so saying it said by Iruka has no value, because it does
> not matter who said it if it's fact. For example, if some child said there is the Sun, or the president said it,
> is there a different? No.  Also, saying it's stated to children has no effect, why?
> because it's supposed to be a history class, why would he lie to them about their history? Not to
> ...



You're not understanding. 

The main problem with your argument is that you're using former comments and situations in the present time they were said rather than the present time of the manga. For example, going by your logic you can say Sakura's still a Genjutsu type considering Kakashi said it early in part 1. However, we've seen that it's not true given that statement's been changed. You can't go and assume certain things without assessing the situation. Things in the manga change and as each chapter goes by if one situation later on disrupts a previous situation you act accordingly, that's not what you're doing though. You're not arguing based on the latest facts but using facts that have clearly been changed in this series. When that happens your argument becomes broken which is the main problem here. 

Iruka made that comment when Sandaime was right next to him, as I stated that comment has changed. The irony is while Iruka said he was the strongest a few pages earlier Sarutobi basically said Minato would beat Oro had he been alive and he wasn't sure if he could. He was admitting inferiority and yet this happened? Why would he say "Well Minato would beat Oro, I'm not sure if I can" if he's definitely the strongest? It's common sense what's going on here. You don't need to be a genius to understand that. It's obvious that he was hinting Minato to be stronger and in relation to that it proves that time changes in this manga. You're refusing to adjust to the current time. 

He was called the Professor because he could deal with any jutsu. At the same time you need to understand that when he was a teenager Hashirama was likely dead given Tobirama was the Hokage then and when he was called the Professor was more than likely when Hashirama was dead as well. You see what I'm getting at here? Tell me, are you going to say he can deal with any jutsu Rikudou can deal out? You can't prove that considering he hasn't seen them. What I'm getting at is that these comments are based on time specifications. You're not looking at the times they were said in relation to the situations in which you're comparing them to. He was called the Professor because he could deal with those jutsu. On that same token that doesn't mean you can deal with everything coming your way. Take Minato for example. In theory he can deal with any projectile coming his way with his space-time barrier. With that said if 1000 RM Narutos went at him with all of his FRS attacks all around Minato and he couldn't run away or teleport (escape) how would he deal with him? He wouldn't. It's possible being able to deal with any jutsu and still get beaten in a fight. It's called being outsmarted, overwhelmed and defeated. Hell, his fight with Orochimaru was proof of this. 

Sarutobi doubted his power...that's what I'm saying here. He was admitting Minato was stronger and would have beaten Oro at the same time. Do you get what's going on here? Iruka was teaching a history lesson and he said he was the "strongest" of all time and Sarutobi said to not use past tense...as in the current time. At the same time Sarutobi himself was saying Minato would have won for a fact and he's not sure if he would have...which is placing Minato above him.

Do you understand now? That completely breaks your argument. You're claiming Hiruzen's the "strongest" when he himself destroyed that a few pages earlier. Along with that even Hiruzen was affected by Hashirama's chakra a few chapters ago. It's clear that Kishi's putting those two above him and it's clear times have changed. You need to get with the current times and understand that things can and will change in this manga. This is a great example of it. Beyond that we even had a comment in this war arc about Hashirama being the only one who can defeat Madara and that was made by someone who knows how strong Hiruzen truly is. It's common sense here. 

And that Minato comment from Raikage isn't accurate since it's from the anime and we don't use the anime to debate in the library/telegrams. The actual translation states (the link you posted) "Raikage: I had a number of bouts with him. he was the man who even gave me the impression that none is a better shinobi than him". Again, like I've been saying, you're under the assumption that Raikage's seen everything. He's going by his experiences. Raikage wasn't alive in the olden war days. He doesn't know how strong he is, he's only going by how strong he sees people are during the current time. Also with even that said Raikage didn't know how fast Naruto was either. 

Finally with that said....why are you even taking his opinion into consideration when he doesn't even know how strong Hashirama is? Raikage had no idea Madara was that powerful so why are you assuming he knows that Minato was the strongest? It's common sense here. 

Hashirama's strength hasn't been completely shown. Until you can actually post proof he was using his true power and that's all he can do then it's basically your opinion against manga fact. The manga states that their battle was cut away mid-way and we didn't even see their fight. And yes he had 5 Bijuu under his control at one point which was after the Madara battle. I'm not even talking about him using the 5 Bijuu, I'm talking about the fact he was strong enough to grab and control them all after he kept living while Madara was weakened barely clinging to life. He was still becoming stronger and being active while Madara wasn't. Also I was wrong, he didn't have 5, he could have had more but he split them among the 5 shinobi villages for the peace treaty. 


*Spoiler*: __ 






Madara barely gained the Rinnegan just before he died, he was clinging to life while Hashirama was protecting the village, gathering Bijuu, getting married and doing whatever else it took as Hokage. It's a clear difference. 

If you can't get that Hashirama's been hinted more than the others (and with evidence) as the strongest Hokage after all these comments, pages, quotes then it's beyond me because Kishi's said it enough already.

Lastly there's no telling how the manga will go. We have Madara, Tobi and the Jyuubi thus far but there's some a potential wildcard in place. We'll have to see but it's not as clear cut as you might think.


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## thinmints (May 17, 2013)

even with all these hashi and tobi feats, kishi never forgets his favorites. minato will show some badass stuff, count on it


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## sinjin long (May 17, 2013)

honestly this is how I feel it breaks down

hashirama-most raw power
tobirama-most ruthless
hiruzen-most versatile
minato-most skilled

each hokage has the traits to defeat the others,it all comes down to intangibles,battle scenario,location,conditions,etc.

hashirama can overwhelm with power,but tobi rama is more ruthless and wiliing to do things that hashirama would not,giving tobirama the win.

hiruzen can effectively attack and defend with a multitude of varied jutsu,but minato's skill could outsmart him giving minato the win.

and vice versa.

if your talking most powerful then I gotta give to hashirama,but that doesn't make him the strongest,in the all around sense of the word.

guy one can bench press 300lbs,but only do 10 pullups,guy two can only bench 200lbs but can do 30 pullups

who is stronger?

guy 1 is built like raikage,6'4" 250 lbs ripped, guy 2 is 5'8' 170 lbs but a krav maga master,in a fight destroys guy 1.

who is stronger?


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## takL (May 17, 2013)

eitherway its amaze me that most of u called minato the weakest just because he was quite. 
and now he has to be the strongest just because he arrived there before the other edo hokages? 
Give him a break.


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## Nic (May 17, 2013)

he could be if the generational thing holds true.  Nothing concrete has been given yet though and as of right now Hashirama seems to be the strongest.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (May 17, 2013)

Senju Leader said:


> I'm not minato wanker usually, but this last chapter opened my eyes so to speak. Minato was so fast that he arrived to the battlefield, set up a S/T time barrier, teleported the Juubi bijuudama, all without anyone seeing him until it was over. I really find hard to imagine that some slow ass  wood would be able to touch him, or some water techs either. Add all this to the fact that if he tags you its over.... I really cannot see him losing to Hashirama, Tobirama etc.
> 
> Unless you are in his speed tier, or have S/T you cant beat him.



That is My point for so long... People call me Minato wanker or lover yet All I an doing is pointing out the obvious...  mInato's Physical speed and reflexes that allows him to react and move as fast as the Raikage at full speed in ration armour super mode which was able to dodge amaterasu and move faster then the SG can see...
Coupled with his Hiraishin/FTG gives him a speed level that is just so rediculous that no one can hit the guy with an attack because he can transport hismelf to a difference Kuani or seal and even if the entire battle field is destroyed with his Kunai and seals... He has seals placed all over Konoha and probably all other countries so he can go there then come back...

So Minato can avoid any attack of any level that does not destroy all five countries at once... So even the juubi's blast can be dodged... and Hashirama's large scale wood jutsu and sage mode buddha attacks...

And due to his godly super speed, no one can possibly track his movements... Yes they can try to track the Kunai, but minato scatters them everywhere and throws them at very high speed and far so unless someone with a BG to see in all direction far and through things can track all the Kunai that are stationary... But they will also need the SG to try to keep up with the speed of the Kunai being thrown by Minato that he moves to instantly... and even then, they would need the raikage's reflexes to track and react to minato's physical speed after he has used the FTG to transport himself...

So unless you have the power of the BG, SG and reflexes of raikage in super ration armour mode... You are not going to be able to track minato's movements at all...

The only other thing that could allow someone to compete with Minato with his speed is some with a strong defense like a barrier, susanoo, ect... However, Minato should be able to just reverse summon that away the same way he can anything else that is tangible and separate of the enemy which a barrier and susanoo are...
Pretty much, there is no defense against minato's super godly speed other then equaling his speed or destroying all the area that has his Kunai and seals so he cannot transport to them and use the FTG, but that would probably take destroying many countries though...
There is no real counter or defense for minato's speed and attacks... 

Even being indestructible means nothing because minato the master of seal could just seal you away in a seal like what is being done with the Edos...

In the end, when competing any one against mInato you only have to ask a simple qustion... "CAN MINATO TOUCH THEM AT LEAST ONCE?" If the answer is anything, but NO... Then they will lose due to the fact that one Minato touches you and grazingly, you are tagged and can be attacked directly with the FTG and his physical speed/reflexes with w/e he needs to kill or seal you away... defeating you...
i mean, there really is not a single shinobi in this Manga who cannot be touched at least once by Minato... Even Obito was, using a rasengan attack... And he has the greatest defense of all characters in the manga other then minato that is...

IN CONCLUSION:
Without a way for any shinobi to HIT minato, no matter how much or little power and strength they have... They are both equals in that their powers/strength are useless against such a speed as minato's...
And with no way to track Minato's Movements and defend against his speed enough to keep from being touched or grazed... There is no way to stop Minato from blitz attacking you at will....

So with no way to defend against his attack or Hit him using their own... How could anyone of these shinobi possibly beat minato in combat???


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## Senju Leader (May 17, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> That is My point for so long... People call me Minato wanker or lover yet All I an doing is pointing out the obvious...  mInato's Physical speed and reflexes that allows him to react and move as fast as the Raikage at full speed in ration armour super mode which was able to dodge amaterasu and move faster then the SG can see...
> Coupled with his Hiraishin/FTG gives him a speed level that is just so rediculous that no one can hit the guy with an attack because he can transport hismelf to a difference Kuani or seal and even if the entire battle field is destroyed with his Kunai and seals... He has seals placed all over Konoha and probably all other countries so he can go there then come back...
> 
> So Minato can avoid any attack of any level that does not destroy all five countries at once... So even the juubi's blast can be dodged... and Hashirama's large scale wood jutsu and sage mode buddha attacks...
> ...



Good post +rep. I see things the same way. It is just impossible to hit minato, in a 1 on 1 battle situation. Pretty much 99.9% of the characters don't have the speed to land a critical hit on Minato. I mean Sage mode naruto clone was able to dodge and counter Wood style jutsu, and people expect it to hit minato?


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## αce (May 17, 2013)

I see this thread devolved into sub-humans arguing over terrible points. Mods, keep doing your job.


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## Maunten (May 17, 2013)

The debate about his chakra content is spiralling out of control lol


Without being a chakra power house on the level recently displayed he is still string enough to kill any of the hokage.


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## Csdabest (May 17, 2013)

Madara stated that the only shinobi strong enough to face him is currently hashirama Madara was alive and was very well knowledgble about the world above. Most likely from Minato. He even had enough info to "chose" obito as his pawn. And madara made the...Only hashirama statement can defeat me with knowledge of minato.

Madara has not even used his Mangekyo or Rinnegan powers to their full extent. Just did abunch of shock and awe.

Hashirama....An prime example of the pinnacle of shinobi along with Madara, Itachi, Minato Hiruzen and others. But hashirama has superior genetics and insane level of aoe jutsu.

Tobirama....has hirashin and edo tensei.

Hiruzen is the closest to Minato power but thats most likely due to him being gimped at an old age.

But enough with the ranking. They are all powerful and formiddible shinobi who have potentially viable ways to kill one another. I have decided to leave it at that.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 17, 2013)

I would say that he is the second hokage for now but the upcoming chapters may prove different. Before people come yelling about mountain range busters it will not work all the time against S/T jutsu(the only thing that can make you a top tier besides bijuu chakra, sharigan, wood release, edo tensei or sage mode). If that statue comes marching foward to punch minato it's hands go into the barrier and are lost. What then? 

Once again i think hashirama is stronger for now(subjected to change) but smashy smash wood is not why. More like aoe mixed with nasty effects that do not have to "harm" minato(sleep pollen+bringer of darkness etc). Hashirama getting more "hax" like that will make him more of a vicious threat imo.


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## Tenyume Kasumi (May 17, 2013)

Senju Leader said:


> I really cannot see him losing to Hashirama, Tobirama etc.


I can. His name is Kishimoto Masashi and he has Plot no Jutsu.


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## Csdabest (May 17, 2013)

Hashirama has pollen world. The barrier is seem to be placed in front of him. Hashirama mokuton can cover an entire battle feild with ease leaving him to control it. This would make minato tags be out of place and make it hard for minato to even get close to hashirama. If minato teleports he is simply going to teleport near more mokuton. If he teleports away from the battle. Its him retreating resulting in his defeat. Minato while having some hax abilities is still limited by the barrier.


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## Garfield (May 17, 2013)

I'd say he's behind Hashirama for now at least. We don't know yet how Tobirama is currently...Also there's the thing about how he arrived first and the strongest usually make the belated last appearance.


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## Tenyume Kasumi (May 17, 2013)

In that case, Kishi might make Sasuke's arrival last.


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