# Hokage Ranking - Final [Chapter 699/700 Spoilers]



## Kyu (Nov 6, 2014)

The Seven Hokage. Rank them from strongest to weakest.


Hashirama Senju
Tobirama Senju
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Minato Namikaze
Tsunade
Kakashi Hatake
Naruto Uzumaki

Who's the most powerful Hokage?


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 6, 2014)

What's the meaning of this thread? 

Inb4 Minato VS Hashi again.


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## Kyu (Nov 6, 2014)

> What's the meaning of this thread?


Is the op not clear enough for you?



> Inb4 Minato VS Hashi again.



Yea...no Edo Tensei feats for Minato.

We don't need Hussain running a muck.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 6, 2014)

As Hokages:

Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama~Hiruzen~Minato
Tsunade~Kakashi
Old Hiruzen

Most powerful incarnations:

 Naruto
Hashirama~Edo Minato~Rikudo Kakashi
Tobirama~Hiruzen
Tsunade~Edo Old Hiruzen


Hoping for Hokage Kakashi to get a proper fight in the movie. Expecting him to be around young Sarutobi's level given their similarities.


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## Ersa (Nov 6, 2014)

If we take strictly their living forms at the peak of their power.

1. Naruto Uzumaki (Rikudo)
2. Kakashi Hatake (Dual MS/Rikudo)
3. Hashirama Senju
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Tobirama Senju
6. Tsunade Senju / Hiruzen Sarutobi
7. Tsunade Senju / Hiruzen Sarutobi


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## Mercurial (Nov 6, 2014)

As Hokages:

1) Naruto
2) Hashirama
3) Tobirama
4) Minato
5) Kakashi
6) Hiruzen
7) Tsunade

Most powerful incarnations:

1) Naruto 
2) Kakashi
3) Hashirama
4) Minato
5) Tobirama
6) Hiruzen
7) Tsunade


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## Bonly (Nov 6, 2014)

Naruto
Hashi
Minato
Tobi
Tsunade
Kakashi
Hiruzen


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 6, 2014)

1 - Naruto

gap

2 - Hashirama

gap

3 - Minato
4 - Tobirama

gap

5 - Tsunade
6 - Hiruzen
7 - Kakashi


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## Itachі (Nov 6, 2014)

Naruto
Hashirama
Minato 
Tobirama
Kakashi
Tsunade 
Hiruzen


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## Veracity (Nov 6, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Naruto
> Hashi
> Minato
> Tobi
> ...



This perfectly.


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## Santoryu (Nov 6, 2014)

At their strongest:

1) Naruto
2) Kakashi
3) Hashirama
4) Minato
5) Tobirama
6) Hiruzen
7) Tsunade

if you mean only during the period they were Hokage, the list would be more or less the same with the exception of Kakashi who is an enigma and happens to be featless. Though considering how resourceful he is, and the battle experience he gained against the most powerful character (Kaguya) it'd be safe to assume he was stronger than Hiruzen and Tsunade even without the Sharingan. Hiruzen would also be Tsunade.


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## JuicyG (Nov 6, 2014)

Its actually hard to tell how strong Kakashi is at this point. I would wager that some of the Riduko powers have stayed with him and thus improving some area of performance with him. We'll see I suppose.


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## t0xeus (Nov 6, 2014)

1. Naruto (he still got Kurama as hokage, correct?)
2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Hiruzen
6. Tsunade/Kakashi (judging by 1k jutsu hype)


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## Altair21 (Nov 6, 2014)

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Tsunade
6. Hiruzen
7. Kakashi


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## Blu-ray (Nov 6, 2014)

Based on what their peak strength during their actual tenure as Hokage, so no DMS Kakashi, Edo BM Minato, Edo Kage in general, and based on what we actually know, so no Prime Hiruzen.


Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Tsunade
Kakashi
Hiruzen

The characters' peak strength overall.

Naruto
Kakashi
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Tsunade
Hiruzen


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2014)

With hype and in their strongest forms:

#1) *Naruto* (Yang Seal + 8.5/9 Bijuu Perfect Jinchuriki)
#2) *Kakashi* (DMS + Rikudo Chakra + 1,000 Jutsu Hype)
#3) *Hashirama* (Army of Bijuu under lock and key)
#4) *Minato* (Half of 9 tails Perfect Jinchuriki + Novice Sage)
#5) *Tobirama* 
#6) *Hiruzen* (Edo Feats + Hype)
#7) *Tsunade* (5% Katsuya Access)

Without hype the only one that would change is Hiruzen dropping below Tsunade.


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## Reddan (Nov 6, 2014)

Based on the strength they reached and not Edo form's or momentary powers gifted from Obito.


1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Tobirama (basically similar to MInato, but with great chakra, greater control of elements and Edo Tensei)
4. Hiruzen(his experience and ability to counter so many jutsu would be the deciding factor)
5. Minato (probably the most talented out of the Hokage when it comes to ninja basics, but lacked the raw fire power of Hashirama and the time Tobirama and Hiruzen had)
6. Kakashi 
7. Tsunade


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## Pirao (Nov 6, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Based on what their peak strength during their actual tenure as Hokage, so no DMS Kakashi, Edo BM Minato, Edo Kage in general, and based on what we actually know, so no Prime Hiruzen.
> 
> 
> Naruto
> ...



Sounds about right.

In badassness though, Tobirama>>>>>the rest


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 6, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> As Hokages:
> 
> 1) Naruto
> 2) Hashirama
> ...



I agree with this for the most part. However it's kind of hard to place kakashi current power level so I dunno where I would place him on the first list

The coolest design and most badass kage would hands down be Tobirama. The true OG


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 6, 2014)

Pirao said:


> Sounds about right.
> 
> In badassness though, Tobirama>>>>>the rest


RamRam was the coldest hero who ever lived.

He packed needles in mouth just so he'd be prepared to kill someone at any given moment in the unlikely scenario where he should lose total body mobility. Then he trained his tongue for years to master the launching of said projectiles, he ate death for breakfast, lunch and dinner, literally (the needles were always in his mouth); he mastered it so well they even transcended death and allowed him to use them as an Edo. 

Salute to RochRoch's favroite Kage, RamRam 

Thank you for showing us what a shinobi really is, a cold blooded, no-talk, swift dispatcher of souls.


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## Dr. White (Nov 6, 2014)

Alive:
Naruto
Hashi
Minato
Tobirama
Kakashi
Hiruzen
Tsunade
Danzo

Prime:
Naruto
SM Hashi
Double MS Kakashi
Edo Minato
Edo Tobirama
Edo Hiruzen 
Byakugo Tsunade
Danzo


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## Ersa (Nov 6, 2014)

I honestly think Kakashi showing signs of having Rikudo chakra automatically puts him above Hashirama.


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## Turrin (Nov 6, 2014)

To me it's just

Naruto



Hashirama

Edo-Minato

Kakashi/Hiruzen/Tsunade/Minato/Tobirama


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 6, 2014)

1 naruto
2 Hashirama
3 Hiruzen
4 Tobirama
5 Tsunade
6 Minato
7 Kakashi


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 6, 2014)

In terms of power?

1. Naruto Uzumaki (Rikudo Senjutsu + a decade of experience with it)
2. Hashirama Senju (Perfect Sage Mode)
3. Minato Namikaze (Fastest Shinobi alive till Naruto, Sage Mode)
4. Tobirama Senju (Hiraishin, jutsu mastery, and Suiton)
5. Tsunade (Byakugou, Super Strength, and Katsuyu)
6. Hiruzen Sarutobi (All Five Elements and untold jutsus)
7. Kakashi Hatake (Experience and a thousand jutsus)

Kakashi without his Sharingan...is really limited. As much as I'd like to put DMS Kakashi there, he doesn't have his Sharingan period during his tenure as Hokage.


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## Jad (Nov 6, 2014)

Are we going to count Movie feats when the Naruto the Last comes out? Since most of Hokage Kakashi's feats will stem from that.


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## ARGUS (Nov 6, 2014)

Power as a hokage 

1. Naruto 
2. Hashirama 
3. Minato 
4. Tobirama
5. Hiruzen  
6. Tsunade 
7. Kakashi - (he doesnt have  sharingan as hokage) 

in terms of hokage 

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama  
3. Tsunade 
4. Minato (saved, konoha, possibly the youngest hokage) 
5. Kakashi (not enough knowledge of his reign, though he would be great) 
6. Tobirama 
7. Hiruzen (worst hokage, led danzo do whatever he could, didnt help naruto one bit, led to the uchiha massacre, when he couldve easily stopped it, led his student into darkness, etc)


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 6, 2014)

Naruto
Hashirama
Minato(Edo)
Hiruzen
Tobirama
Minato(Living)
Kakashi
Tsunade


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## Turrin (Nov 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Alive:
> Naruto
> Hashi
> Minato
> ...


In what universe is Danzo with the most broken Jutsu (Koto) in the entire manga that low.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2014)

The most broken Jutsu is probably Rikudō Sage Mode.

Koto probably isn't even the most broken Genjutsu, considering that Sasuke subdued nine powerful, separate entities with a glance.


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The most broken Jutsu is probably Rikudō Sage Mode.
> 
> Koto probably isn't even the most broken Genjutsu, considering that Sasuke subdued nine powerful, separate entities with a glance.


I don't think this is a fair way to rate how broken a jutsu is. To me how broken a jutsu is comes down to how far above the person's weight class it allows them to punch so to speak. Sasuke could do a-lot with his Genjutsu, but he was already God Tier by then, so that' expect. Naruto could do a-lot with Rikudo-Sage-Mode but he was needed God like skills to be able to utilize that power. If we just gave Konohamaru Sasuke's Genjutsu he wouldn't get anywhere near the same results because he lacks the God Tier power fueling it and he'd just turn to stone if given Rikudo's Senjutsu. You give Konohamaru Kotoamatsukami and he can suddenly have a chance to beat pretty much anyone in the verse depending on conditions, even if he may collapse from the strain afterwards.

Rikudo Sage Mode is one of the strongest Jutsu, but it's proportional to the strength of the user. Sasuke's Genjutsu didn't even seem like anything special other than the user being Godly Strong. 

Kotoamatsukami on the other hand is not anywhere near proportional to the user; it just gives them a God Tier Power that can be used easily and by nearly anyone who has any kind of respectable chakra reserves.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't think this is a fair way to rate how broken a jutsu is. To me how broken a jutsu is comes down to how far above the person's weight class it allows them to punch so to speak.



That doesn't make any sense to me. If a person has a Jutsu that allows them to "punch above their weight class," then all we're doing is underestimating this person's level of power. 

One Jutsu is enough to elevate you in a tier list. See Obito or Minato.



> You give Konohamaru Kotoamatsukami and he can suddenly have a chance to beat pretty much anyone in the verse depending on conditions, even if he may collapse from the strain afterwards.



Why would Konohamaru have the necessary chakra capacity to even activate the Mangekyou and not collapse immediately, let alone the stamina or skill to use one of its techniques? 



> Rikudo Sage Mode is one of the strongest Jutsu, but it's proportional to the strength of the user.



...Rikudō Sage Mode, or it's sister technique Rikudō Jūbi Coffin Seal, is what is making these God Tiers, you know, God Tiers....so I don't understand your point.



> Kotoamatsukami on the other hand is not anywhere near proportional to the user; it just gives them a God Tier Power that can be used easily and by nearly anyone who has any kind of respectable chakra reserves.



Let me get this straight; you believe that Koto Amatsukami is God Tier-level technique, so you must believe Danzo & Shisui possess the chakra and skill to use God Tier level techniques (unless you don't think they can use Koto, which I doubt).

I dunno about that.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2014)

Koto can only be used once a day by Danzo, and it only works on one person. Sure, it's great in small platoon battles, but it's effectiveness is relatively worthless on a large-scale battlefield, say against an army of White Zetsu. 

Every other Kage would be more effective than him in war, by a significant margin actually. Even MS Kakashi, who's Kamui caps at 5, would be more effective as he can be inflated with chakra by others to maximize the potential of his technique. 

Danzo can only use Koto once a day, no exceptions, and he can only use Izanagi for 10 minutes, no exceptions. In other words, there's only 10 minutes of his life that he can be at his most effective, then he's only very effective against one opponent once a day. He's built as more of an assassin than a Hokage IMO.


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## savior2005 (Nov 7, 2014)

what is wrong with you ppl? why is the god of shinobi hiruzen sarutobi last on most ppl list.


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## trance (Nov 7, 2014)

Only assuming peak of their reign as Hokage...

1. Naruto

_-Enormous Gap-_

2. Hashirama

_-Gap-_ 

3. Minato
4. Tobirama

_-Smaller Gap-_

5. Tsunade
6. Kakashi
7. Hiruzen


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## Trojan (Nov 7, 2014)

In term of power.

1- Naruto.

no need for explanation. 

2- Minato. (with Kurama)

I believe it's obvious that his feats in the war and all that things above all the Hokages (besides his child obviously). In addition to that, Kishi kept comparing Naruto to Minato UNTIL THE VERY LAST PAGE OF THE MANGA. That's saying something. 

3- Hashirama.

Well, he shouldn't be hear by hype, but I guess Hiruzen is done for. 

* Minato without Kurama would be here, as both Tobirama and Hiruzen admitted their inferiority to him*

4- Tobirama

Although I believe he might not be here either because the Databook showed that his jutsus (FTG- GIRI and the explosion tags) are not really as powerful as I thought they are, and some of them are only short-range jutsus. 

5- Tsunade.

he healing abilities are better than what Hiruzen showed imo, and apparently she also has 4 elements, so Hiruzen's feats with the 5 elements are barely anything special now honestly.

6- Hiruzen

7- Kakashi

He's a filler Hokage to me, don't know what was the point of that. He also became the Hokage without the sharingan which was everything he has. Without it he can't even use his regular Raikiri safely. Sure, he had some of Obito's power for like a minute or two, but I don't count that. If we however take that in consideration, he would be #4 after Naruto, Minato, and Hashirama, yes, even with his PS, never believed that he's above them or on the same level as the Legend (Naruto) or Sasuke. 

With only MS (1 eye) he is also in the 4# place as I believe he's superior to Tobirama with that.

As a Hokage.

1- Naruto. 

No need for explanation. 

2- Minato.

Saved the village from the 3rd War and brought victory to them. Saved them from Obito's attack with Kurama, and prepared his son to save them ever after that.
He also saved Naruto and ultimately konoha when he appeared to Naruto during Pain arc, and made Kushina appear to help Naruto which was extremely helpful to everyone in the War. He saved the world twice in the 4th war besides many other thing.

3- Hashirama.

Mainly because he's the one who came up with the village idea and started it.

4- Tsunade.

She dealt with almost everyone's mess, especially Tobirama's and Hiruzen's. 

5- Hiruzen.

he had to deal with Tobirama's mess and he also was kind overall to the people.

6- Tobirama.

His ET and what he did with the uchiha were more or less the things behind every fucked up in the story.

7- Kakashi.

Never seen him.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 7, 2014)

Naruto Uzumaki
Hashirama Senju
Minato Namikaze
Tobirama Senju / Tsunade
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Kakashi Hatake​​


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That doesn't make any sense to me. If a person has a Jutsu that allows them to "punch above their weight class," then all we're doing is underestimating this person's level of power.
> .


In essence your right, but i'm talking about how much giving the Jutsu to someone who doesn't rightfully have it, how much it would improve them.



> Why would Konohamaru have the necessary chakra capacity to even activate the Mangekyou and not collapse immediately, let alone the stamina or skill to use one of its techniques?


He can use KB and Rasengan. It's not like using MS once costs a-lot of chakra. Itachi has a 2.5 and he can use MS 4-5 times, as well as other Jutsu. 



> ..Rikudō Sage Mode, or it's sister technique Rikudō Jūbi Coffin Seal, is what is making these God Tiers, you know, God Tiers....so I don't understand your point.


My point is that it takes God Tier Skill to use these Jutsu, while it does not with Koto.

But another point would also be that if we gave Koto to Naruto or Sasuke in place of Bijuu Controlling Genjutsu or Rikudo Sage Mode, they'd WTFPWN their way through the rest of the manga.



> Let me get this straight; you believe that Koto Amatsukami is God Tier-level technique, so you must believe Danzo & Shisui possess the chakra and skill to use God Tier level techniques (unless you don't think they can use Koto, which I doubt).


I believe Koto is the strongest technique in the manga (in most situations). Danzo and Shisui can only use it sparingly because they lack God Tier power. However it's broken to me, because characters like Danzo and Shisui can use it all. All the other God level techniques can't really be used by people that aren't aren't way more powerful than Shisui/Danzo to begin with.


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## Etherborn (Nov 7, 2014)

Current ranking:

1. Naruto Uzumaki
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Minato Namikaze
4. Tobirama Senju
5. Tsunade Senju
6. Kakashi Hatake
7. Hiruzen Sarutobi


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In essence your right, but i'm talking about how much giving the Jutsu to someone who doesn't rightfully have it, how much it would improve them.



Less than Kamui or Susano'o, which actually grant a user offense _and defense._

Probably less than sealing the Jubi inside somebody as well.




> He can use KB and Rasengan. It's not like using MS once costs a-lot of chakra. Itachi has a 2.5 and he can use MS 4-5 times, as well as other Jutsu.



Itachi is a natural born Uchiha with ridiculous chakra control to minimize wasted energy.

Konohamaru is neither of those things, so you don't really have a point here.



> My point is that it takes God Tier Skill to use these Jutsu, while it does not with Koto.



Maybe in the case of RSM, but not the Coffin Seal that let sliced-in-half Obito go God mode and overwhelm four Hokage. Put Danzo or Shisui in that situation and they get stomped horribly.



> But another point would also be that if we gave Koto to Naruto or Sasuke in place of Bijuu Controlling Genjutsu or Rikudo Sage Mode, they'd WTFPWN their way through the rest of the manga.



You sure are in love with this Jutsu. 

If Naruto and Sasuke had Koto instead of RSM or the Rinnegan, Jubidara would have killed them both with Limbo Hengoku before they knew what happened. Speaking of Limbo, Madara could probably feint Koto with that to ensure a low dif victory.



> I believe Koto is the strongest technique in the manga (in most situations). Danzo and Shisui can only use it sparingly because they lack God Tier power. However it's broken to me, because characters like Danzo and Shisui can use it all. All the other God level techniques can't really be used by people that aren't aren't way more powerful than Shisui/Danzo to begin with.



I think you meant to say that Koto Amatsukami is the strongest technique in a 1v1, but I disagree with even that.

Infinite Tsukuyomi is just a stronger Jutsu to begin with.

Kamui is better because it is only slightly inferior to Koto offensively yet massively superior defensively. It also isn't limited to one use per battle.

Limbo is better for the same reasons as Kamui.

RSM is _stronger_, though it wouldn't be more "broken" by your definition of the term.

Susano'o is another one that is superior for reasons mentioned above.

I could go on.

Past one on one, Koto is far less scary. Teammates can inform each other that they're being affected, or outright cancel the effects with the partner method. In a large scale setting like a war, Koto is virtually useless outside of stuff like espionage or negotiations, which aren't exactly fields of combat.


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## Veracity (Nov 7, 2014)

The effects koto had on Mifune lead me to believe it's not from the most powerful Genjustsu in the manga. Infinite Tsukuyomi and the god tiered Genjustu Sasuke used to subdue all the tailed beasts simultaneously is far more impressive IMO.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2014)

I get what Turrin is saying.

On paper Koto should allow a low tier shinobi to defeat a top tier without knowledge. Thats how haxxed it is, especially considering how easy it is to execute it(I blink you become my slave).

Although in the manga, Shisui couldn't even defeat Danzo who didn't have Izanagi@ the time. And Shisui was never hailed as the strongest shinobi ever or anything. So I am assuming Kishimoto never intended the technique to be viewed as a oneshot god mode jutsu, otherwise he'd suck Shisui'd dick more.


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 7, 2014)

Databook makes Koto to be some godly jutsu however as grimm stated what appears in the manga well say otherwise


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 7, 2014)

Regardless of what the manga says it can only be used once a day, against one man, and it can be broken canonically. 

It's useless in large scale battles, which is where a Kage should shine most. Most of the kage are extremely effective in large battle scenarios, take Tsunade for example- Katsuya and Byakugo is infinitely more useful on a battlefield than Koto and Izanagi alike, those techniques do nothing to support others. The only one who similarly is more suited for 1v1 or small platoon battles is MS Kakashi, and his Kamui is still more useful than Koto, especially when inflated with other's chakras.


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I get what Turrin is saying.
> 
> On paper Koto should allow a low tier shinobi to defeat a top tier without knowledge. Thats how haxxed it is, especially considering how easy it is to execute it(I blink you become my slave).
> 
> Although in the manga, Shisui couldn't even defeat Danzo who didn't have Izanagi@ the time. And Shisui was never hailed as the strongest shinobi ever or anything. So I am assuming Kishimoto never intended the technique to be viewed as a oneshot god mode jutsu, otherwise he'd suck Shisui'd dick more.



We still don't know the circumstances of that event unfortunately, but if anything stated in other material is remotely accurate Shisui was saving Koto to use on the clan, which is why he didn't use it against Danzo.

Shisui was hailed as the strongest Uchiha Clan member, having the strongest Genjutsu and being the greatest Uchiha Genjutsu user (which is basically synonymous with the greatest Genjutsu user ever), so that's pretty big hype. As for never being called the strongest, well at the time we really started getting into Shisui Kishi had already talked about Hagoromo who was strong enough to create the moon, so of course he wasn't called the strongest.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2014)

Shisui was not hailed as the strongest Uchiha Clan member. That would be Madara.


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## Mercurial (Nov 7, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I honestly think Kakashi showing signs of having Rikudo chakra automatically puts him above Hashirama.



Well having the best/almost best attack (offensive Kamui) + the best/almost best defense (defensive Kamui) together should put him above Hashirama. Throw in Kamui teleporting, Perfect Susanoo, Kamui Raikiri, Kamui Shuriken, Rikudo chakra boost and so on... Kakashi's feats in term of jutsu, speed and intellect in the Kaguya fight were astonishing. He should actually clown Hashirama, as strong as he is.


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Shisui was not hailed as the strongest Uchiha Clan member. That would be Madara.


He was during that time-period and I think you mean Sasuke.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 7, 2014)

At the peak of their reign as Hokage, I'd say:

1. Naruto
_-Enormous Gap-_
2. Hashirama
_-Enormous Gap-_ 
3. Hiruzen
4. Minato
5. Tobirama
6. Danzou
_-Smaller Gap-_
6. Kakashi 
7. Tsunade

Kakashi might be way stronger, but from what I understand, he no longer has his Sharingan or the Obito-power-up. He still have above-average reflexes, intelligence, jutsu skill, etc. for Kage.

I don't buy completely into Prime Hiruzen hype, but I do think Edo Hiruzen gave us a rough example of what he might have been like, and I'd grant him more speed and strength in his prime.

Mentioning Turrin's take on Kotoamatsukami, I do think the genjutsu can be combated. Itachi said every jutsu has a weakness, right? And didn't Danzou take the eye from Shisui with two?

Still though, it's a very dangerous genjutsu that doesn't require eye contact. He definitely can't be put too far down either. I think putting him in the group between Hashirama and Tsunade is fair. ​


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2014)

How does Hiruzen beat out Minato but not Hashirama?

By feats, he is far worse than both, and by Databook hype he is better than both.

Also, there is no Kage Kakashi without dojutsu can beat except for Mei. Tsunade just regenerates from Raikiri and pile drives him.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> By feats, he is far worse than both, and by Databook hype he is better than both.



I'm not sure why you think Hiruzen's feats put him below Minato. 

The size of his elemental ninjutsu shown as an Edo was quite impressive, and I don't think I need "hype" to postulate that his 30-year-old body would be both faster and stronger.

Moreover, we didn't see him use it against Spiral Zetsu, but he could combine the giant fire jutsu and the giant wind jutsu, etc. if he wanted to, making them larger and match even Madara's stuff.

With those facts in mind, I don't think him at his strongest beating living Minato is much of a stretch at all, even without the hype of him knowing all of Konoha's jutsu (that he could learn.)​


Rocky said:


> Also, there is no Kage Kakashi without dojutsu can beat except for Mei. Tsunade just regenerates from Raikiri and pile drives him.



I don't buy into Tsunade regenerating from decaptitation or a hole through the brain, and I don't think it's outlandish to say Kakashi can accomplish that either. The same goes for any of the Gokage.

Granted, if A, Gaara, or Onoki played it smart, then they wouldn't lose to him, but they don't always necessarily play it smart. Especially A and Gaara, from what we've seen.​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not sure why you think Hiruzen's feats put him below Minato.
> 
> The size of his elemental ninjutsu shown as an Edo was quite impressive, and I don't think I need "hype" to postulate that his 30-year-old body would be both faster and stronger.
> 
> ...



Since when was giant Jutsu shenanigans a good strategy against Hirashin? Minato literally opens up a giant barrier and sends Hiruzen's own attacks back at him. While he's busy trying to counter his own shit, Minato pegs  a Kunai at the ground below Hiruzen's feet and is in his face with a Rasengan and speeds that make the Raikage jealous.




> I don't buy into Tsunade regenerating from decaptitation or a hole through the brain, and I don't think it's outlandish to say Kakashi can accomplish that either. The same goes for any of the Gokage.​



We've been given no reason to believe that brain damage is Byakugo's weakness, and the technique's Databook description even suggests against it. 

As for the rest of the Gokage, A blitzes, Gaara flies and tidal waves, and Onoki flies away, creates a beam of death, and flicks his wrist. Kakashi has nonexistent defense and no quick ranged techniques without Kamui.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2014)

Honestly, RnY A has the reflexes to react to and evade whatever Kakashi attempts,,and the Durability to tank it if he so desires.

Kakashi outright can't even get near Onoki or Gaara.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 7, 2014)

I don't think it makes much sense to put Tobirama or Minato above Danzo unless it's Edo Minato. Danzo can be invincible for 10min and during that time he only needs to have his enemy in his field of view once and he doesn't just win, but turns his enemy into his pawn. I don't see any of them baring Edo-Minato and Hashirama stepping to that.


----------



## Gibbs (Nov 7, 2014)

What would happen if Danzo tried Koto on Naruto, only instead of the real body, it was a Shadow clone?


----------



## Veracity (Nov 7, 2014)

Kakashi without Kamui or sharingan precognition would honestly get stomped by tsuande. Possibly even Hirzuen with overwhelming elemental spam. People severely underate the ability the Sharingan gives. True Kakashi will be able to balance his chakra better and last longer, but being able to perceive body movements, completely cancel out Genjusu, and cast a space time Ninjustu at ridiculous speeds can move a ninja from low Kage to high kage.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 7, 2014)

I think this new DB findings on Koto is getting Danzo hyped WAYY too much. He was beat by a primitive MS Sasuke, just leave it at that.


----------



## Kaiser (Nov 7, 2014)

At their strongest form

1- Naruto
2- Kakashi
3- Hashirama
4- Minato
5- Tobirama
6- Hiruzen
7- Tsunade

Otherwise

1- Naruto
2- Hashirama
3- Minato
4- Tobirama
5- Hiruzen
6- Kakashi
7- Tsunade


----------



## Turrin (Nov 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I think this new DB findings on Koto is getting Danzo hyped WAYY too much. He was beat by a primitive MS Sasuke, just leave it at that.


Koto's hype is wrong because Danzo lost a battle where he did not use Koto. How does that make sense.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Koto's hype is wrong because Danzo lost a battle where he did not use Koto. How does that make sense.



Obito knew Danzou had Shisui's eye, and yet he was still confident that Sasuke could kill him


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 7, 2014)

Also if Koto makes you invincible, then how does Danzo manage to take it from Shisui without Shisui activating it to beat Danzo ?


----------



## Kaiser (Nov 7, 2014)

Danzo could only use one koto order at a time. I think it's possible Obito was counting in the possibility of Sasuke getting controlled for him to take down Danzo safetly


----------



## Bonly (Nov 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Also if Koto makes you invincible, then how does Danzo manage to take it from Shisui without Shisui activating it to beat Danzo ?



It could simple be a case of Shisui not wanting to use it.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 7, 2014)

Bonly said:


> It could simple be a case of Shisui not wanting to use it.




But at the cost of Danzo having it, an the Uchiha couping ? I doubt any rational person would accept that loss


Shisui was very incomptenet about his abilities to help him survive now wasn't he ? That makes me doubt the "hype" of these abilities with ZERO real feats


----------



## Bonly (Nov 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> But at the cost of Danzo having it,



And from Shisui's point of view what's the worst that can happen. Either Danzo can't use the eye for ten years or Danzo only gets one shot with it which he would've likely used it to protect the village in his own way. Oh no what a bad thing.



> an the Uchiha couping ?



It's not like he didn't have another eye or anything.



> I doubt any rational person would accept that loss



Right, have you read this mange by any chance? Characters constantly don't always make the most rational choices, I don't think wasting both his Koto for ten years while knowing Danzo would be constantly after him is to far out the box that he isn't rational. 



> Shisui was very incomptenet about his abilities to help him survive now wasn't he ?



You mean the guy who wanted to die? 



> That makes me doubt the "hype" of these abilities with ZERO real feats



So far it's feats are controlling Mifune and controlling Itachi. Unless those don't count as feats to you for some weird reason.


----------



## Patrick (Nov 8, 2014)

In their strongest incarnations:
1. Rikudo Mode Naruto
2. Sage Mode Hashirama
3. Rikudo Mode Kakashi
4. Bijuu Mode Minato
5. Prime Hiruzen
6. Tobirama
7. Tsunade


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Obito knew Danzou had Shisui's eye, and yet he was still confident that Sasuke could kill him


Where does Obito ever say that? Literally Obito was impressed that Sasuke did as well as he did against a Danzo who did not have Koto:

_"Despite the fact that he couldn't use Shisui's eye,
you did well to get Danzou to this state, Sasuke."_



JuicyG said:


> Also if Koto makes you invincible, then how does Danzo manage to take it from Shisui without Shisui activating it to beat Danzo ?


How did that match even go down. Did Danzo have back up? Did Shisui even attempt to use Koto or was he saving it for the clan. Was Koto even charged at that time? Did Danzo ambush him or was it a fair fight? You using a battle we know literally nothing about as an example.


----------



## Jad (Nov 8, 2014)

Don't see Gaikage on this list


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Since when was giant Jutsu shenanigans a good strategy against Hirashin?



Just because Hiraishin makes evading jutsu easier doesn't make giant jutsu less useful, especially when they can destroy tags or cover entire areas where tags are spread.

i.e. when A was planning to strike where he was guessing Minato to be. That'd be a lot easier if A could cover an entire field in fire instead of flashing to a tag to punch his face.​


Rocky said:


> Minato literally opens up a giant barrier and sends Hiruzen's own attacks back at him.




Alright, first, Minato has never done this in the manga. It's possible, but him doing it in-character is entirely fan-speculation born from him lacking a powerful offense.

Secondly, if you're resorting to Minato needing the defense he used against Kurama and Juubi for Hiruzen, then that ought to be sufficient justification for me believing prime Hiruzen would win.

Lastly, while your scenario is interesting, 15-year-old Bee's ability to counter Hiraishin shenanigans makes me think that prime Hiruzen with several clone out wouldn't have a problem.​


Rocky said:


> We've been given no reason to believe that brain damage is Byakugo's weakness, and the technique's Databook description even suggests against it.



It's intuitive. The seal that contains the chakra that is regenerating tissue in in the head. Attack the seal, mess up its ability to send regenerative chakra, and there you go.​


Rocky said:


> As for the rest of the Gokage, A blitzes



If he goes v2, and if he doesn't hit a lightning clone. We've seen him wait until he took a Chidori in the chest to use v2 against Sasuke. The opening is definitely there.​


Rocky said:


> Gaara flies and tidal waves



Like he did against Sasuke, Kimimaro, the Mizukage, etc. Gaara tends not to aerial unless his opponent initiates aerial combat. This means he's vulnerable to trickery and lightning.​


Rocky said:


> and Onoki flies away, creates a beam of death, and flicks his wrist.



And this long-distance attack can't be evaded by Kakashi for some reason?​


----------



## Patrick (Nov 8, 2014)

Still find it sad that the power levels got so fucked up. Hiruzen in his Prime was supposed to be the strongest Shinobi  to have ever lived next to Rikudo. So much for that.


----------



## Danzio (Nov 8, 2014)

1. Naruto Uzumaki



2. Hashirama Senju


3. Prime Hiruzen Sarutobi
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Tobirama Senju



6.Tsunade
7.Kakashi Hatake


----------



## Ruse (Nov 8, 2014)

Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Kakashi


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 8, 2014)

Koto is the new Kamui now.

Anyways:
Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama/Minato
Kakashi
Tsunade
Hiruzen


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Just because Hiraishin makes evading jutsu easier doesn't make giant jutsu less useful, especially when they can destroy tags or cover entire areas where tags are spread.
> 
> i.e. when A was planning to strike where he was guessing Minato to be. That'd be a lot easier if A could cover an entire field in fire instead of flashing to a tag to punch his face.​



Giant jutsu are not useful because Minato possesses the ability to manipulate space & time to the point that he can change the intended target of an attack.

He doesn't need to evade them, just as he didn't need to evade Bijudama.



> Alright, first, Minato has never done this in the manga. It's possible, but him doing it in-character is entirely fan-speculation born from him lacking a powerful offense.​




He hasn't done what? Use the Space Time Barrier to send an attack somewhere other than its intended target?

Yes he has. He just hasn't redirected anything back at his opponent, usually because doing so would result in many casualties that consisted mostly of his allies.

That isn't the case here.



> Secondly, if you're resorting to Minato needing the defense he used against Kurama and Juubi for Hiruzen, then that ought to be sufficient justification for me believing prime Hiruzen would win.



That isn't how you logic.

Minato using a defense (that he needed for entities stronger than any form of Hiruzen) on Edo Hiruzen does not indicate that Prime Hiruzen can overcome that defense.

I don't believe there is much a difference between Edo and Prime Hiruzen, and both would lose horribly. The extra speed and strength aren't going to be anywhere near A's, who couldn't compete with Minato's speed.



> Lastly, while your scenario is interesting, 15-year-old Bee's ability to counter Hiraishin shenanigans makes me think that prime Hiruzen with several clone out wouldn't have a problem.



15 year-old B's feats of countering 19 year-old Minato aren't Hiruzen's, especially his physical ones. A & Obito had trouble, so Hiruzen stands almost no chance when occupied with something else.

Oh, and B couldn't consistently do it either. He was able to stop a flank, but he was marked and Minato was uninjured. I wonder who had the advantage should the fight have continued. 



> It's intuitive. The seal that contains the chakra that is regenerating tissue in in the head. Attack the seal, mess up its ability to send regenerative chakra, and there you go.​



That would only work prior to the use of Byakugo.

As you can see, the seal spreads throughout the body upon activation, meaning the needed chakra for regeneration is already in place before the injury occurs.



> If he goes v2, and if he doesn't hit a lightning clone. We've seen him wait until he took a Chidori in the chest to use v2 against Sasuke. The opening is definitely there.​



A doesn't need v2, and a lightning clone won't do anything to a guy who wears lightning for fun.

Nor will Raikiri, which Kakashi cannot land on any form of A wearing armor due to the reflex disparity.



> Like he did against Sasuke, Kimimaro, the Mizukage, etc. Gaara tends not to aerial unless his opponent initiates aerial combat. This means he's vulnerable to trickery and lightning.​



Gaara has an automatic defense I believe, so Kakashi can't get close regardless of whether or not Gaara flies. 



> And this long-distance attack can't be evaded by Kakashi for some reason?​



Because I don't see any speed feats for Kakashi, especially without Dojutsu, that suggest he can do so.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2014)

_*1.)*_ Naruto


_*2.)*_ Hashirama


_*3.)*_ Prime Hiruzen
_*4.)*_ Minato/Tobirama
_*5.)*_ Peak Performance Tsunade

_*6.)*_ Out-of-practice Tsunade
_*7.)*_ Elderly Hiruzen
_*8.)*_ Kakashi

Danzō would be between 5 and 6 if we counted him.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 8, 2014)

@ Bonly & Turrin

By real feats, I mean feats that pertain to the amount of hype Koto is now receiving since new information has been released on it. Shisui failed to used either Iza or Koto to stop Danzo (who had fodder Anbu). Using Koto on Danzo might have prevented the Uchiha clan from being slaughtered imo.  And if nothing else, he could have at least kept his eye, killed Danzo. 

The true power of Koto has done little in this series that have ultimately affected the outcome of things.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> _*1.)*_ Naruto
> 
> 
> _*2.)*_ Hashirama
> ...



"Prime Hiruzen" is above Hashirama.


----------



## Nurito (Nov 8, 2014)

naruto
hashirama
minato
tobirama
kakashi (i say good possibly)
tsunade (could be stronger than kakashi)


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> "Prime Hiruzen" is above Hashirama.



Not since Hashirama (not Hiruzen) got retconned.

Hashirama became the strongest Hokage, but Hiruzen's Professor hype, > Orochimaru back in the day hype, strongest of the Five Kage hype, etc. is still intact.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 8, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ Bonly & Turrin
> 
> By real feats, I mean feats that pertain to the amount of hype Koto is now receiving since new information has been released on it.



What new info is there about Koto that we didn't really know/suspect of?



> Shisui failed to used either Iza or Koto to stop Danzo (who had fodder Anbu).



Can you show me the manga page where Shisui even tried to use either of those or show me the manga page where Danzo had backup? 



> Using Koto on Danzo might have prevented the Uchiha clan from being slaughtered imo.



So stop the clan from being slaughtered so that the village would've gone into a civil war which could've lead to other villages attacking meaning more deaths in the long run and what not?  



> And if nothing else, he could have at least kept his eye, killed Danzo.



Wow that's smart of you. The Uchiha clan is already on bad terms with Konoha elders but you think it's a smart idea that Shisui, an Uchiha, kill Danzo. Fuck logic and being smart, YOLO!!!!!!



> The true power of Koto has done little in this series that have ultimately affected the outcome of things.



And?


----------



## Kishido (Nov 8, 2014)

Nauto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama/Kakashi
Hiruzen
Tsunade


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 8, 2014)

Kishido said:


> Nauto
> Hashirama
> Minato
> Tobirama/Kakashi
> ...


How is a Sharingan-less Kakashi above Hiruzen and Tsunade? How is old Hiruzen above Tsunade?


----------



## Kishido (Nov 8, 2014)

That's how it goes


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> @ Bonly & Turrin
> 
> By real feats, I mean feats that pertain to the amount of hype Koto is now receiving since new information has been released on it. Shisui failed to used either Iza or Koto to stop Danzo (who had fodder Anbu). Using Koto on Danzo might have prevented the Uchiha clan from being slaughtered imo.  And if nothing else, he could have at least kept his eye, killed Danzo.
> 
> The true power of Koto has done little in this series that have ultimately affected the outcome of things.



It mind-raped Itachi overpowering Kabuto's Edo-Tensei bindings, how is that little


----------



## Dominus (Nov 8, 2014)

*1.* Naruto
*2.* Hashirama
*3.* Minato
*4.* Tobirama
*5.* Tsunade
*6.* Hiruzen
*7.* Kakashi

I rated them based on how strong they were during their reign.

We haven't seen young Hiruzen fight so I placed him there based on his performance against Orochimaru.
Orochimaru said that Hiruzen would have defeated him if he was ten years younger so Hiruzen at that time could have been stronger than Tobirama and Minato as well and when he was in his thirties/forties he could have been even stronger than that. So it's really hard to rate him, that's why I rated him based on only what we have seen.

We don't know how strong exactly Kakashi is either, I placed him there because I don't think he is more powerful than the others with the Sharingan (3 tomoe) so without it he should logically be the weakest, though there is a possibility that he could have gotten stronger after the war.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 8, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Can you show me the manga page where Shisui even tried to use either of those or show me the manga page where Danzo had backup?



*I forgot. It was only in anime ; 1:16*
breathing heavily

And what I am saying, why didn't Shisui just activate Koto ? Why not kill danzo. 




Bonly said:


> So stop the clan from being slaughtered so that the village would've gone into a civil war which could've lead to other villages attacking meaning more deaths in the long run and what not?



No, Shisui was going to use Koto to stop the coup anyways. But avoiding a slaughter of the clan may have resulted in less over-all casualties as Hirzuen-Itachi-Shisui may have been able to end it. Either way, what happened in the end was not a great option either. Sasuke wouldn't have turned out the way he did either.




Bonly said:


> Wow that's smart of you. The Uchiha clan is already on bad terms with Konoha elders but you think it's a smart idea that Shisui, an Uchiha, kill Danzo. Fuck logic and being smart, YOLO!!!!!!



Your sarcasm is making my day..

Shisui was on good terms among those that mattered, par Danzo & that other old bitch.




Bonly said:


> And?



and...whats the point of some much power, without its ability to ever change anything that happened ?


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It mind-raped Itachi overpowering Kabuto's Edo-Tensei bindings, how is that little



Over powered the bindings on Itachi, both times. Not saying it isnt powerful. But what good did it actually do with the outcome of the world ? It didn't grant Danzo, Itachi or Shisui the power to run things for themselves. Your other thread suggests that whoever has the Koto ability is unbeatable.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Over powered the bindings on Itachi, both times. Not saying it isnt powerful. But what good did it actually do with the outcome of the world ? It didn't grant Danzo, Itachi or Shisui the power to run things for themselves. Your other thread suggests that whoever has the Koto ability is unbeatable.


Releasing Itachi from Edo-Tensei allowed him to defeat Kabto and stop Edo-Tensei. It also allowed Itachi to meet Sasuke, which resulted in Sasuke summoning the previous Hokages w/ Orochimaru, and they became major players that saved everyones asses countless times in the war. So yeah it had a huge impact.


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Releasing Itachi from Edo-Tensei allowed him to defeat Kabto and stop Edo-Tensei. It also allowed Itachi to meet Sasuke, which resulted in Sasuke summoning the previous Hokages w/ Orochimaru, and they became major players that saved everyones asses countless times in the war. So yeah it had a huge impact.




Koto_ indirectly _helped them win the war......


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

To weigh in one the Hiruzen discussion, Hiruzen's greatest ability is that he mastered tons of Jutsu, but it is tough to demonstrate the true worth of an ability like that in the manga, unless tons of panel time is dedicated to doing so. Kakashi is the same type as Hiruzen (though not quite to Hiruzen's degree) and has had tons of panel time, even still DBIV tells us that he had mastery of two more elements that we never even saw him utilize (Katon and Fuuton), which just goes to show that even in his case we still haven't seen all useful Jutsu he has. So I don't think we can really ever properly gauge how good Hiruzen was except that he's "good", but lacks some god power that would put him up there with Naruto and Hashirama (or even Danzo w/ Koto or Minato w/ Yin-Kurama, imo). So whether he's better than Living-Minato, Tobirama, or Tsunade in his Prime, I just don't think we'll ever know for sure. 



JuicyG said:


> Koto_ indirectly _helped them win the war......


So it had a large impact....


----------



## JuicyG (Nov 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So it had a large impact....




It was no more helpful than Orochimaru himself was

or Jiraiya for that matter.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 8, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *I forgot. It was only in anime ; 1:16*
> depiction



Ahh so not canon.



> And what I am saying, why didn't Shisui just activate Koto ?



We didn't see what happened when they encountered each other. What we do know is that Shisui was in the process of using one of Koto when Danzo took one of his eyes. We do know that after a use of his own eye, Shisui can't use it for another ten years and he only gets one use with it. That means there could have been a chance that Danzo took the Koto eye that still had a use leaving Shisui Koto-less for that encounter. It could be a case that Shisui didn't want to waste his second Koto eye for another ten years just to live but like we saw give it to Itachi so that he could be the one protect the Uchiha name. It could be a case that Danzo tried a sneak attack leaving Shisui open thus taking his eye and then leaving or Shisui could've ran away after having his eye yanked out his damn eye socket. We have no clue what happened so playing the "why didn't" game here is about as useful as asking why didn't Sasuke use Kirin besides on Itachi or why didn't Sasori use all 298 puppets when fighting but only 102, ect?



> Why not kill danzo.



Because that would be stupid. 




> No, Shisui was going to use Koto to stop the coup anyways.



Using it on Danzo doesn't mean that would stop the Coup like Shisui was trying.



> But avoiding a slaughter of the clan may have resulted in less over-all casualties as Hirzuen-Itachi-Shisui may have been able to end it.



How would they have ended it? Shisui would be out of two Koto uses for another ten years and he wasn't his one command to try and stay alive or as you suggest kill Danzo which wouldn't help their case one bit.



> Either way, what happened in the end was not a great option either. Sasuke wouldn't have turned out the way he did either.



What happened in the end is the only reason why Konoha had peace for a while before Orochi attacked then pain. Hell had the end result not happened there's a chance Sasuke could've died before growing up as well as alot of the other rookies. It may not have been great but it allowed for the actual story to take place.



> Your sarcasm is making my day..



Thanks, I try my best 



> Shisui was on good terms among those that mattered,



Can you show me where? From what I remember it was constantly said that *Itachi* was the Uchiha's only lifeline and the only one the elders actual talked to and/or trusted.



> par Danzo & that other old bitch.



Old bitch? You better not be talking about my sweet Koharu. i'll fite u m8



> and...whats the point of some much power, without its ability to ever change anything that happened ?



I'd assume the point is the potential. It's kinda hard to show off how great uses can be when it had like two or three actual showings on panel which funny enough it actual did the job it was told to do.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> It was no more helpful than Orochimaru himself was
> 
> or Jiraiya for that matter.


Which were both extremely influential.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Not since Hashirama (not Hiruzen) got retconned.
> 
> Hashirama became the strongest Hokage, but Hiruzen's Professor hype, > Orochimaru back in the day hype, strongest of the Five Kage hype, etc. is still intact.



I don't believe any of that hype still stands true, as it was all introduced around the same time in the story. Also, I don't remember where it was ever actually confirmed that Hashirama was stronger than this "prime Hiruzen," unless it was mentioned in the latest Databook.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> It was no more helpful than Orochimaru himself was
> 
> or Jiraiya for that matter.



Lolwut ? 

What do you mean indirectly ? Koto directly helped them win the war lmfao.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2014)

Koto was part of a series of events that ended with the alliance's victory. It isn't like Koto was used and bam; war over.

There was still much Itachi had to do after being freed from Edo Tensei, and Koto had nothing to do with any of it. Koto was a small factor. Izanami played a larger role in the outcome of the war. Sure, Itachi wouldn't have been able to fight Kabuto without Koto, but that is like saying Gamabunta played a critical role because he saved Naruto's life, and Naruto went on to seal Kaguya.

There were a shitload of important things that happened and had an effect on the war. Koto is just a piece, that does little on its own. Thus, it indirectly helped the alliance win. No one Jutsu directly won the war.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It mind-raped Itachi overpowering Kabuto's Edo-Tensei bindings, how is that little



Sure, but Itachi _used his own command_ to get out of Edo Tensei control. There would be no reason for him to resist what he himself ultimately desired, you know? 

However, I suspect that from what we've seen, if a ninja is both aware and resistant, then it can be overcome. Mifune didn't keep thinking Danzou should be the supreme leader, after all.

The trick being to know which thoughts are your own and which are implanted, I imagine. Itachi suspected it would work on Sasuke because Sasuke never knew of its existence.
​


----------



## Grimsley (Nov 8, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> *1.* *Naruto
> 2. Hashirama
> 3. Minato
> 4. Tobirama
> ...



This list is objectively the correct one.


----------



## Grimsley (Nov 8, 2014)

Danzio said:


> 1. Naruto Uzumaki
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What is 'prime' Hiruzen? Even when summoned by Edo Tensei, with unlimited chakra pool and health, we still saw nothing special. He is lightweight and his hype is not justified by his feats - the series has ended now, so he is what is of him that was shown. 

The proper list:

1. Naruto Uzumaki 
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Minato Namikaze 
4. Tobirama Senju 
5. Tsunade Senju
6. Hiruzen Sarutobi
7. Kakashi Hatake 

6 and 7 are interchangeable. Kakashi might be stronger.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The extra speed and strength aren't going to be anywhere near A's, who couldn't compete with Minato's speed.



A can compete with Minato's speed, just not his intelligence. Intelligent ninja wouldn't charge into an area Minato just marked up, not that A has the versatility to grant him a choice.

Ninja like Bee, as we've seen, and anybody around Bee's level, have the capability to anticipate and counter Hiraishin, making Minato's job in putting them down with a flash much more difficult.​


Rocky said:


> 15 year-old B's feats of countering 19 year-old Minato aren't Hiruzen's, especially his physical ones. A & Obito had trouble, so Hiruzen stands almost no chance when occupied with something else.


15-year-old Obito > 15-year-old Bee > prime Hiruzen. Gotcha.​


Rocky said:


> Oh, and B couldn't consistently do it either. He was able to stop a flank, but he was marked and Minato was uninjured. I wonder who had the advantage should the fight have continued.



The tentacle was marked, which is hardly decisive, and he intercepted Minato before that to save A. Five prime Hiruzen clones can't do anything though. I see.​


Rocky said:


> That would only work prior to the use of Byakugo.
> 
> As you can see, the seal spreads throughout the body upon activation, meaning the needed chakra for regeneration is already in place before the injury occurs.



This is a good point. Fair enough.​


Rocky said:


> A doesn't need v2, and a lightning clone won't do anything to a guy who wears lightning for fun.



We've seen lightning put a hole in A's chest. His own jutsu, through his own manipulation of generated current, speeds him up. But if its a current he's not generating to manipulate, it'll work.​


Rocky said:


> Nor will Raikiri, which Kakashi cannot land on any form of A wearing armor due to the reflex disparity.



MS Sasuke landed Chidori just fine in a head-on encounter. Kakashi is equally reflexive, but more importantly, more cunning, which might prevent him from getting Liger bombed.​


Rocky said:


> Gaara has an automatic defense I believe, so Kakashi can't get close regardless of whether or not Gaara flies.



The automatic defense disappeared with Shukaku IIRC, but it was too slow anyway, and can be pierced through with lightning chains, raikiri, etc.​


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2014)

To be honest, once any opponent is FTG marked there is virtually nothing they can do. Having the ability to anticipate a warp is nice and all , but all the user has to do is use a Bunshin in place.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 8, 2014)

Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Kakashi

Gotta see what kakashi do in the movie if anything before moving him up.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Sure, but Itachi _used his own command_ to get out of Edo Tensei control. There would be no reason for him to resist what he himself ultimately desired, you know?
> ​


Except Itachi was an Edo and therefore had no choice but to defend himself. He simply could not.



> However, I suspect that from what we've seen, if a ninja is both aware and resistant, then it can be overcome. Mifune didn't keep thinking Danzou should be the supreme leader, after all.


Danzo released Mifune.



> The trick being to know which thoughts are your own and which are implanted, I imagine. Itachi suspected it would work on Sasuke because Sasuke never knew of its existence.


If someone could logically work through it like this, than Sasuke would still realize his thoughts were altered and that would break him free. Danzo was also going to use it on Madara, despite Madara being aware of it. So I have to say no it can't be escape this way, nor was this ever mentioned or implied to be a way to escape.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Ninja like Bee, as we've seen, and anybody around Bee's level, have the capability to anticipate and counter Hiraishin, making Minato's job in putting them down with a flash much more difficult.​



Maybe you missed the War Arc, but Obito as the Jubi's host could barley react, or failed to react all to Hiraishin, which is how Sage Naruto drilled a hole in his back. That was without a distraction as well. 

Hiruzen has nonexistent changes of reacting unless he knows exactly when Minato will jump (like B did) and has a counter prepared before Minato initiates that jump (like B did). Not happening, especially when Minato has means of distracting Hiruzen to create an opening, such as a bunch of teleporting clones.



> 15-year-old Obito > 15-year-old Bee > prime Hiruzen. Gotcha.​



Physically? Yes, without a doubt. We have been given no indication that Hiruzen's speed and reflexes were on the level of B or Obito, at any point in his life.

Also, I love how you're using age to try and make Obito and B seem far worse. As an Itachi fan, you should know that ninja can be powerful at young ages, and if the manga is anything to go by, there didn't seem to be much of a difference in physically prowess between the younger B and Obito and their older selves. The same goes for A, who literally acted as if his speed didn't change from the Minato to the Naruto fight.



> The tentacle was marked, which is hardly decisive, and he intercepted Minato before that to save A. Five prime Hiruzen clones can't do anything though. I see.​



B was sitting there spectating, watching events unfold and picking and choosing moments to intervene. It is different than actually being the target of the blitz.

Though I don't believe Hiruzen clones are quicker than Killer B to begin with.



> We've seen lightning put a hole in A's chest. His own jutsu, through his own manipulation of generated current, speeds him up. But if its a current he's not generating to manipulate, it'll work.​



Concentrated Raiton designed to penetrate isn't the same as a clone meant to paralyze. We've seen Sasuke no sell electrocution simply by being a Raiton user, and A has mastered lightning release. He will have no issues.



> MS Sasuke landed Chidori just fine in a head-on encounter. Kakashi is equally reflexive, but more importantly, more cunning, which might prevent him from getting Liger bombed.​



Okay, so Sasuke used the Sharingan to counter A's Elbow, and Kakashi doesn't have the Sharingan, soooo....

Yeah..A was intercepting and smacking around KCM Naruto in v1; Kakashi stands no chance.




> The automatic defense disappeared with Shukaku IIRC, but it was too slow anyway, and can be pierced through with lightning chains, raikiri, etc.​



I thought it was his mothers spirit that was responsible for the defense or some shit.

Anyway, if Kakashi can actually get into position to land Raiden, then he can win. Getting close is the problem though, and we saw what happened to Kimimaro when he tired against kid Gaara.

Kakashi's lack of durability and brute force hurts his chances against the Kazekage imo.


----------



## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Maybe you missed the War Arc, but Obito as the Jubi's host could barley react, or failed to react all to Hiraishin, which is how Sage Naruto drilled a hole in his back. That was without a distraction as well.


Juubito had the seal placed right on him and Tobirama teleported in such a way that Naruto's Rasengan was already touching him, that's why he couldn't react. Normally the Hiraishin user can't teleport an attack right into the person and is forced to physically go through the motions of attacking after teleporting, this is what the Juubijins consistently trolled and what Base-B was also able to react to.

As for Prime-Hiruzen's chances, nobody knows how fast he is, so nobody knows if he can react to it in such a situation or not. But Hiruzen has knowledge of how FTG works and he would try to not let a Tag get near him anyway.



> hysically? Yes, without a doubt. We have been given no indication that Hiruzen's speed and reflexes were on the level of B or Obito, at any point in his life.


We haven't been given an indication he's not that fast ether. Literally we have no idea what Prime-Hiruzen is capable of physically.

Your arguing such and such couldn't happen and you might be right, but could easily be wrong too, the author has given us no basis one way or another.


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2014)

@turrin
Well Tobiramas bunshin was able to warp behind Juubito and place an arm on his shoulder without him being able to react. I'm confident that Minato can do so to a far weaker Shinobi like Hirzuen. He gets FTG blizted.

Not to mention you said that tobirama teleported Naruto to the point where his resengan was already touching him? That doesn't really make sense at all. And even if it did , Minato the one who created resengan could replicate that exact feat; even with a kunai.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Juubito had the seal placed right on him and Tobirama teleported in such a way that Naruto's Rasengan was already touching him, that's why he couldn't react. Normally the Hiraishin user can't teleport an attack right into the person and is forced to physically go through the motions of attacking after teleporting, this is what the Juubijins consistently trolled and what Base-B was also able to react to.
> 
> As for Prime-Hiruzen's chances, nobody knows how fast he is, so nobody knows if he can react to it in such a situation or not. But Hiruzen has knowledge of how FTG works and he would try to not let a Tag get near him anyway.
> 
> ...


Actually yes an FTG user can teleport their attack directly into an opponent, when said opponent is marked. When an opponent isn't marked and the user only teleports to a seal close to the opponent, that is when motion in the strike is required.

You can't physically react to FTG when you're marked. Juubito couldn't react to tobiramas FTG because he was marked. Minato also directly stabbed Obito upon appearing in front of him, without leaving Obito a moment to react (there was no motion in the strike).

People don't realise that killer bee was as good as dead if minato had the killing intent, but minato was only trying to intimidate, not kill. Minato could've stabbed bee as soon as he appeared, but no, he paused and held the kunai to bee. But we've seen that minato can strike instantly, when his opponent is marked, so why not bee? Reason being is because minato didn't want to kill him in the first place. Remember the whole speech and advice minato gave Ay and bee? Minato just told Ay to cherish and look after his brother, and just praised bee for his talent. Why would minato then kill him after all that? Only reason he teleported to bee was because Ay attacked him, minato was already retreating.


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Actually yes an FTG user can teleport their attack directly into an opponent, when said opponent is marked. When an opponent isn't marked and the user only teleports to a seal close to the opponent, that is when motion in the strike is required.
> 
> You can't physically react to FTG when you're marked. Juubito couldn't react to tobiramas FTG because he was marked. Minato also directly stabbed Obito upon appearing in front of him, without leaving Obito a moment to react (there was no motion in the strike).
> 
> People don't realise that killer bee was as good as dead if minato had the killing intent, but minato was only trying to intimidate, not kill. Minato could've stabbed bee as soon as he appeared, but no, he paused and held the kunai to bee. But we've seen that minato can strike instantly, when his opponent is marked, so why not bee? Reason being is because minato didn't want to kill him in the first place. Remember the whole speech and advice minato gave Ay and bee? Minato just told Ay to cherish and look after his brother, and just praised bee for his talent. Why would minato then kill him after all that? Only reason he teleported to bee was because Ay attacked him, minato was already retreating.


You have the first part right, but are wrong on B. In B's case the mark was actually a bit off his body, because it was on one of Hachibi's tentacles extended from his body, hence Minato having to launch a successive strike and B being able to put up his sword in time.

DBIV even talks about how they clashed swords and acknowledge each others bravery, so it's suppose to be seen as an instance of equality.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Juubito had the seal placed right on him and Tobirama teleported in such a way that Naruto's Rasengan was already touching him, that's why he couldn't react. Normally the Hiraishin user can't teleport an attack right into the person and is forced to physically go through the motions of attacking after teleporting, this is what the Juubijins consistently trolled and what Base-B was also able to react to.



If Tobirama can warp Rasengan on to his enemy, and Minato can warp a contract seal on to Obito, then he warps a Rasengan or weapon right on to Hiruzen's face and calls it a day.

And yes, I do believe Hiruzen will get marked, because I don't see any feasible way that he tracks down and kills Minato without being touched once.


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Actually yes an FTG user can teleport their attack directly into an opponent, when said opponent is marked. When an opponent isn't marked and the user only teleports to a seal close to the opponent, that is when motion in the strike is required.
> 
> You can't physically react to FTG when you're marked. Juubito couldn't react to tobiramas FTG because he was marked. Minato also directly stabbed Obito upon appearing in front of him, without leaving Obito a moment to react (there was no motion in the strike).
> 
> People don't realise that killer bee was as good as dead if minato had the killing intent, but minato was only trying to intimidate, not kill. Minato could've stabbed bee as soon as he appeared, but no, he paused and held the kunai to bee. But we've seen that minato can strike instantly, when his opponent is marked, so why not bee? Reason being is because minato didn't want to kill him in the first place. Remember the whole speech and advice minato gave Ay and bee? Minato just told Ay to cherish and look after his brother, and just praised bee for his talent. Why would minato then kill him after all that? Only reason he teleported to bee was because Ay attacked him, minato was already retreating.



When did Minato ever teleport with a kunai in obito ?


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## Bonly (Nov 8, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> When did Minato ever teleport with a kunai in obito ?



Right here is what he's referring to.


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If Tobirama can warp Rasengan on to his enemy, and Minato can warp a contract seal on to Obito, then he warps a Rasengan or weapon right on to Hiruzen's face and calls it a day.


If the seal is placed directly on him.



> And yes, I do believe Hiruzen will get marked, because I don't see any feasible way that he tracks down and kills Minato without being touched once.


Fuuton and Shuriken KB are both excellent for deflecting FTG-Kunai. Doton are excellent for blocking and avoiding them by going underground (i'm sure Hiruzen has mastery of doton underground). KB, which even older Hiruzen further weakened by Edo-Tensei can at least make 4 of on top of other massive jutsu are also good for avoiding being marked and so is Enma with it's Cage defense. Than add in thousands of unseen Jutsu as well as an increase to physical abilities and stamina in his prime,  and suddenly it's not clear at all who the victor would be.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't believe any of that hype still stands true, as it was all introduced around the same time in the story.



But if _Hashirama_ is the one who was retconned (and he was) then it doesn't really matter at what time it was introduced _for Hiruzen_. Hashirama is relevant _only_ to the ranking of the Hokages, and the Hokage ranking is but one of many testaments to Hiruzen's ability in his younger years.

Wherever one considered Prime Hiruzen before he is still there, Hashirama just got elevated above even that is all.



> Also, I don't remember where it was ever actually confirmed that Hashirama was stronger than this "prime Hiruzen," unless it was mentioned in the latest Databook.



Transferring the goS title over to Hashirama speaks for itself, I think. 

IIRC the databooks used to mention Hiruzen being the strongest of the Hokages but then they dropped it altogether. I think Turrin said Hiruzen's profile mentioned him showing greater talent than Tobirama at a young age in the latest one, though? If that's true it lines up just fine with Danzō's flashback in the manga where Hiruzen said he was the strongest of the group before Tobirama faced Kinkaku and Ginkaku's squad.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If the seal is placed directly on him.



Mhm.



> Fuuton and Shuriken KB are both excellent for deflecting FTG-Kunai. Doton are excellent for blocking and avoiding them by going underground (i'm sure Hiruzen has mastery of doton underground). KB, which even older Hiruzen further weakened by Edo-Tensei can at least make 4 of on top of other massive jutsu are also good for avoiding being marked and so is Enma with it's Cage defense. Than add in thousands of unseen Jutsu as well as an increase to physical abilities and stamina in his prime,  and suddenly it's not clear at all who the victor would be.



I know what Hiruzen's potential abilities are. I still stand by my original claim that Hiruzen isn't going an entire fight with Yondaime without getting tapped even once.

That said, if you want to say the victor is unclear because of a lack of information on Hiruzen, I'm not going to fault you for it.



FlamingRain said:


> Wherever one considered Prime Hiruzen before he is still there, Hashirama just got elevated above even that is all.



I don't include Prime Hiruzen in any tier list because he is featless, and the "hype" was mentioned once by Iruka in Part 1 and in the first Databook, then never brought up again.

My Hokage Rankings would be:

Naruto

-big gap-

Hashirama

-gap-

Minato
Tobirama
Tsunade

-gap-

Kakashi

If I was forced to rank Prime Hiruzen, he'd be in between Tobirama and Minato. That's based on the performance of Edo Hiruzen & Kyubi Attack Hiruzen, who aren't that different than Hiruzen in his prime.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That said, if you want to say the victor is unclear because of a lack of information on Hiruzen, I'm not going to fault you for it.


Glad we can agree.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 9, 2014)

Naruto
BM Minato ~ Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama


Rest...


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## FlamingRain (Nov 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't include Prime Hiruzen in any tier list because he is featless, and the "hype" was mentioned once by Iruka in Part 1 and in the first Databook, then never brought up again.



He's going to remain featless, so we may as well start trying to approximate outside of that, and the hype that was mentioned once by Iruka and in the databook only to never be brought up again was him _being the strongest Hokage_.

I'm not defending that here; I don't have to, since, after all, such is only a _part_ of what constituted Prime Hiruzen's hype, it isn't the whole thing, and this is still the same character, and when the strongest Hokage role transferred over from the Third to the First Hiruzen did not suddenly get any weaker, Hashirama just got stronger....independently of Hiruzen, who still at least has being the Professor that's being touted to be the strongest of the Five Kage, able to defeat Orochimaru, and more talented than Tobirama going for him in his younger years.

Orochimaru is equal to Tsunade fullstop, and you can look at this post  for my opinion on how Minato compares to a Sannin. If Hiruzen was originally intended to be the strongest Hokage of all, and the retcon was on Hashirama's part instead of Hiruzen's, I'd say it makes more sense to go ahead and assume that we should keep him ahead of all three of the remaining Hokages instead of trying to cram him into a gap I don't consider to be truly significant to begin with.

But then again that's just me.


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## ShadowReaper (Nov 9, 2014)

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Kakashi
4. Tobirama
5. Minato
6. Hiruzen
7. Tsunade


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## Velocity (Nov 9, 2014)

Since Naruto seems to have kept Asura's power, with the powers they possessed while being alive and Hokage...


*Naruto* - still has Asura's power, plus chakra from all nine Biju while still being Kurama's Jinchuriki so he's the most powerful being on the planet right now.
*Hashirama* - was always absurdly powerful to the point where he could fight Madara and Kurama at the same time and still win.
*Minato* - fastest Hokage by far, plus he took Hiraishin to the next level and had some pretty scary jutsu besides.
*Tobirama* - even though he invented a lot of jutsu, he couldn't use them as well as the people that came after him so he's lower on the list.
*Tsunade* - due to her rapid regeneration and immense physical strength, Tsunade is a one trick pony but absolutely deadly with it.
*Hiruzen* - one of the weaker Hokages but with access to all five elements and some seriously strong jutsu.
*Kakashi* - Kakashi is at the bottom because he lost his Sharingan, essentially meaning that he was only made Hokage during a peaceful era (where a strong Hokage would be unnecessary) while everyone waited for Naruto to take over.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> ...and the hype that was mentioned once by Iruka and in the databook only to never be brought up again was him _being the strongest Hokage_.



_None_ of it was ever brought up again; Hiruzen was rarely mentioned in Part II. I don't believe Hashirama was the only one retconned. Actually, I'd say that Kishimoto changed his mind about where _all_ of the previous Hokage were supposed to stand. It isn't like we never got a fight from a younger Sandaime.

This strongest of the Five Kage, Orochimaru-beating, super professor Hiruzen was largely useless against Kurama and needed Minato to stop the fox from blowing him and his village to smithereens. I mean hey, maybe a worn Minato and half-dead Kushina are just _that_ much better match-ups against the Kyubi than Hiruzen and the entire Leaf military, but I find it quite interesting that the best Hiruzen and the leaf could do was push it, while Minato and his wife dealt with both it _and Obito_ relatively quickly.



> Hashirama just got stronger....independently of Hiruzen, who still at least has being the Professor that's being touted to be the strongest of the Five Kage, able to defeat Orochimaru, and more talented than Tobirama going for him in his younger years.



Even if all of this hype were true, everything listed applies to Minato as well, in my opinion at least.



> Orochimaru is equal to Tsunade fullstop, and you can look at this post  for my opinion on how Minato compares to a Sannin.



I have never held Minato above the Sannin merely due to character praise. He's stronger in my mind because I've found him to be more impressive in battle, and that's the  extent of it. He's also bested far more impressive opponents than any of them have.

I don't think gap is really anything too large in the grand scheme of things, but it's there. Similar to Itachi if it helps. 



> If Hiruzen was originally intended to be the strongest Hokage of all, and the retcon was on Hashirama's part instead of Hiruzen's, I'd say it makes more sense to go ahead and assume that we should keep him ahead of all three of the remaining Hokages instead of trying to cram him into a gap I don't consider to be truly significant to begin with.



If you can confirm that Kishimoto changed his about only Hashirama and none of the others, then I'll agree with you.

Until then, I'm not going to place Hiruzen above Minato. I'll keep him above Tobirama only because of a scene in the latter half of Part II where Hiruzen claimed to be the strongest in a team that included Tobirama and wasn't refuted.


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## jonnty6 (Nov 9, 2014)

Quick question how do we know Naruto got stronger if their in a time of peace?? What else would he train for??


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## Bonly (Nov 9, 2014)

jonnty6 said:


> Quick question how do we know Naruto got stronger if their in a time of peace?? What else would he train for??



Well the movie is suppose to be canon and apparently the moon is falling down or some stupid shit like that due to someone from the Sage's clan or whatever soooooooo Naruto could always train incase someone pops out the ass yet again


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## jonnty6 (Nov 9, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Well the movie is suppose to be canon and apparently the moon is falling down or some stupid shit like that due to someone from the Sage's clan or whatever soooooooo Naruto could always train incase someone pops out the ass yet again


Hmm that's true.

Just was curious about it.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2014)

Considering what's stated in the DB IV i'm inclined to think Hiruzen should be higher up peoples lists:

Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained both both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 9, 2014)

Hiruzen and Tobirama are stronger than Living Minato


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## Kishido (Nov 10, 2014)

Velocity said:


> Since Naruto seems to have kept Asura's power, with the powers they possessed while being alive and Hokage...
> 
> 
> *Naruto* - still has Asura's power, plus chakra from all nine Biju while still being Kurama's Jinchuriki so he's the most powerful being on the planet right now.
> ...



Databook 4 showed Kakashi having access to all 5 elements as well. And Hiruzen hasn't shown that great jutsus. (Still Hiruzen is awesome)

I wouldn't be surpised if movie Kakashi will shut some people up, who think he is just sitting on his ass doing nothing or haven't changed his fighting style.

You can clearly see him in his fighting attire... So expect to see something from him


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 10, 2014)

Kishido said:


> Databook 4 showed Kakashi having access to all 5 elements as well. And Hiruzen hasn't shown that great jutsus. (Still Hiruzen is awesome)
> 
> I wouldn't be surpised if movie Kakashi will shut some people up, who think he is just sitting on his ass doing nothing or haven't changed his fighting style.
> 
> You can clearly see him in his fighting attire... So expect to see something from him


Kakashi's best techniques are gone. He's weaker than Hiruzen and Tsunade by a great amount without them.


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## Kishido (Nov 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakashi's best techniques are gone. He's weaker than Hiruzen and Tsunade by a great amount without them.



You will be suprised. I have no doubt that Kishi will milk Kakashi's new skills in the movie.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 10, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakashi's best techniques are gone. He's weaker than Hiruzen and Tsunade by a great amount without them.


Same was said about him right after Madara ripped his eye off. And we all saw what happened in Kakashi's next fight.

I'd say wait for the movie and maybe translation of his DB4 entry.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hiruzen and Tobirama are stronger than Living Minato



They aren't and Hiruzen is fuckloads weaker than both.


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## trance (Nov 10, 2014)

>2014
>People still buying into Hiruzen's hype


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## Invictus-Kun (Nov 10, 2014)

1. Naruto= do I need to explain this? No wonder the title of the manga is Naruto.

2. Harashima = he alone can fight the alliance

3. Minato = he had what it takes the heads of the other kages aside from Nardo and Harashima

4. Hiruzen = he is the professor, but it does not mean he is very strong, what it means is that he knows a lot of techs in an average level and nothing more.

5. Kakashi = he is my boy, but I have to be honest, without the sharingan, Kakashi is just like another Hiruzen, but had a weak summon


6. Tobirama = he is fast, but things are not just about speed, he lacks AOE attacks

7: Tsunade = well, she was strong, but not strong enough he could not 1 hit anyone from above.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2014)

Lol sharinganless Kakashi and Hiruzen above Tobirama


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2014)

Considering Hiruzen had greater talent than Tobirama at a Young age, I think it's a fair assumption that Hiruzen in his Prime surpassed Tobirama. Hiruzen isn't like the other characters who have gotten talent hype and than gotten sick, followed the wrong path, or straight up died young, so I don't really see a reason why if he was that Talented he wouldn't surpass Tobirama eventually w/ greater talent.. Hiruzen seems to represent that top of the world in terms of what a shinobi w/o very powerful Hagoromo/Kaguya/Juubi powers can do.



Eliyua23 said:


> Hiruzen and Tobirama are stronger than Living Minato


I wouldn't be so sure about Tobirama > Minato. Minato apparently surpassed Tobirama by a decent margin in Hiraishin usage, and while Tobirama is better with nature alteration, Minato is better with shape recomposition via inventing Rasengan. Unless the DB says more about it, we'll never know how good Tobirama's Edo-Tensei was or how frequently he had it prepped, but it's hard to beat the Toads Minato can summon in effectiveness, so who knows which ones Kuchiyose is better. Than Minato seems to have more triumph cards via Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu and limited Sennin Modo. Basically I don't think there is enough information to make the call yet, but from what I've read in the DB so far i'm leaning towards Minato > Tobirama.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 10, 2014)

After seeing in DB 4 that Minato saved 2 Jins by the age of 13, there is no question he is at least on #3 on the list.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2014)

After what I've read in the DB IV, I feel like it goes.

1. Hashirama
2. Hiruzen
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Tsunade

Hashirama is by far the strongest at this point, really nothing to dispute that.

Hiruzen could use every Ninjutsu in the Leaf Village, all 5 Nature alteration, Genjutsu, and Clan jutsu. He basically represents the pinnacle of Shinobi might outside of all the Hagoromo/Kaguya/Juubi nonsense, and it's clear the Kishi originally had him as the strongest Hokage, until he came up with the Hagoromo/Juubi/Reincarnation nonsense, which raised the power-level to high for Hiruzen to continue to be the strongest w/o one of those powers, despite him being the greatest master of Ninjutsu the world had ever seen outside those power.

Minato is slightly above Tobirama. Tobirama created the foundation for many of the most powerful Ninja techniques in the manga, but he never perfect them. Minato improved on Tobirama's main jutsu Hiraishin, surpassed Tobirama in his main attribute (speed), and while Tobirama has other great abilities outside of Hiraishin so does Minato, so I'd say him improving Hiraishin should put him slightly above.

Tsunade created much of the foundation for medical ninjutsu and if she has enough chakra stored in the Byakugou no in, she can be nearly as effective as the other Hokages (sans Hashirama), but I don't think she quite has the abilities of the others.

--------------
If we add in the new Kages, Naruto is the strongest now for obvious reasons, and when it comes to Kakashi we don't have much to judge his abilities as we don't know how he developed w/o Sharingan.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 10, 2014)

I love Hiruzen but how can we _possibly_ buy into his hype at this point? 

Hiruzen in his prime is the exact same as in his old age, except his stamina is higher and his physical stats are a bit better. However, in regards to this tier list that changes relatively little. In fact, let's actually list Prime Hiruzen's capabilities:


 Can create a large number of Kage Bunshin
 Large extendable Enma staff, that can also divide into several staffs for offensive/defensive purposes
 Ability to use large elemental blasts, using any of the five base elements
 Can fire a plethora of giant shuriken
 Has great knowledge of genjutsu, and probably a fair amount of skill in using it
 Can use a combination of any of these things at once

The problem lies in the fact that Hiruzen's physical stats are still average, and even in his youth I doubt his stamina was _immense_. Onoki is a good example of this, where his stamina obviously suffered in his old age, but not to the point that he had to hold back in his chakra usage mid-battle like Hiruzen did. Onoki's techniques used up far more chakra than the ones Hiruzen used against Orochimaru too. 

Hiruzen isn't a speedster either, I doubt he had more than a 3.5/4 in speed in his prime. 

Even if we analyse the events that take place in Hiruzen's life, his hype still doesn't make sense. He gets tossed aside when tries to stop Orochimaru from leaving Konoha. When he was about the same age as the Sannin are in Part II, he requires the help of the entirety of Konoha to put up a decent fight against the Kyuubi. 

When Iruka calls Hiruzen the greatest Hokage, he speaks in the past tense ie. when he was in his prime, and he speaks oblivious to the power of the previous Hokage Hashirama and Tobirama, who were long dead by the time he was born. Likewise, Kabuto says that Hiruzen was the strongest of the Gokage even in his old age, but Kabuto bases this on the hype that Hiruzen gained from his youth. Even then, Kabuto is so young and comparatively inexperienced that his knowledge on the current Gokage of that time - Onoki, Ei, Mei and Rasa, is limited. On what grounds does he assess that Hiruzen could defeat any of them? 

Kakashi and Hiruzen are probably quite interchangeable on this tier list, with both being on a similar level of strength. However, Hiruzen is indisputably weaker than the other five.​​


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## Veracity (Nov 10, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Same was said about him right after Madara ripped his eye off. And we all saw what happened in Kakashi's next fight.
> 
> I'd say wait for the movie and maybe translation of his DB4 entry.



What ? Sharinganless Kakashi literally did nothing and admitted he was useless. He needed the biggest Asspull power up to actually do something and he immediately lost that.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 10, 2014)

Yeah, Hiruzen had to wait for Minato to handle the Kyuubi. Him knowing all the Konoha's genjutsu/ninjutsu/taijutsu didn't help for shit there. But then again, Hiruzen would get eliminated by Minato before he even blinked.

Turrin is clearly trolling here.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I love Hiruzen but how can we _possibly_ buy into his hype at this point? ​



Because Kishi and the DB clarified which hype should be bought into and which hype was retecon'd. The God of Shinobi and strongest Hokage was never brought back up after Hashirama's appearance and it has nothing to support it, given that I agree that we should consider that hype retecon'd . However Hiruzen hype as the professor who has mastered a plethora of Jutsu has not gone away and instead Kishi builds on it in the manga by having Hiruzen show not only high mastery of all 5 nature alteration, but the ability to pull out the exact same ones as Shin Suusenju, which implies mastery of a large number of nature alteration jutsu in each element. Additionally Kishi builds on it in the DB repeating how he got his names as the professor and further explaining it by stating how he knew how to use every Ninjutsu in the leaf village as well as being able to use Genjutsu and Hidden clan techniques. As for Hiruzen being weakened in his old-age, we are given no reason to doubt that this did indeed result in us never seeing Hiruzen at his best, and indeed Kishi builds on this even further by giving the additional handicap of Hiruzen being brought back even weaker as a Tensei.



> Hiruzen in his prime is the exact same as in his old age, except his stamina is higher,in regards to this tier list that changes relatively little


The extent to which a stamina decrease effects someone depends on their fighting style. If they rely on taxing techniques or utilizing many techniques consecutively throughout the course of the battle, than a stamina decrease will have a huge impact on their performance. In Hiruzen's case he falls into both those categories. Not only is heavily taxing Kage-Bushin one of the main elements of his fighting style, but given his characterization as someone who has mastered a plethora of techniques, he also likely fights by relying on utilizing a many different techniques consecutively or even in unison through the use of Kage-Bushin. 



> and his physical stats are a bit betterHowever,


Where is the indication that his physical stats are only a bit better? The only direct indication we were given about this, is that Enma's staff had become so heavy and difficult for him to wield in his old-age. That doesn't seem like he got just a little weaker, it seems his physical abilities decreased greatly if before he could wield around the staff like nothing, yet now he is huff and puffing from throwing it around for just a little bit in his duel with the Edo-Kages. Besides that the only other thing one could cite is in the  Data-book stats where all his other abilities were 5s while his physical stats were all 3s, with the potential implication that he would have all 5s in every area in his prime; which again does not side with the idea that the increase would only be slight. Beyond that one could also cite the common sense aspect that a man in his 70s would naturally have drastically reduced physical capabilities.

But I don't really see what indicates in the manga that his physical abilities only decreased slightly



> In fact, let's actually list Prime Hiruzen's capabilities:


.
Considering Hiruzen demonstrated the ability to fire off powerful elemental Ninjutsu against Shin Suusenju, the ability to utilize more clones would drastically increase his capabilities. More clones means that he can fire off much more Elemental blasts at once, allowing him to display even greater offensive might than he did with his 5 elemental attacks against Shin Suusenju. Beyond being able to use more clones at one time to increase is raw offensive out put, being able to use clones more consistently drastically alters the effectiveness of Hiruzen's fighting style, because it enables him to simulcast jutsu much more freely. The ability to cast multiple jutsu simultaneously throughout the battle is extremely potent on the basis of his ability to utilize 5 nature alteration alone as it allows him to consistently produce more dangerous (and more difficult to counter) elemental combinations, but than when one considers Hiruzen ability to utilize a vast array of different types of Ninjutsu (supposedly everyone in the leaf village) and Genjutsu it becomes exceedingly dangerous. Imagine a shinobi being hit with a Genjutsu, while at the same time being blasted with a powerful elemental ninjutsu, while at the same time having to deal with any number of other techniques Hiruzen has at his disposal; and so on.



> The problem lies in the fact that Hiruzen's physical stats are still average, and even in his youth I doubt his stamina was immense.


Again where was it stated that his physical abilities were only average. When it comes to speed Hiruzen was weakened by age and than further weakened by Edo-Tensei, yet still was able to partially dodges Juubito's Kekkai Mora, quickly reacted to save Naruto from the Shinju-Tree, react to Shin-Suusenju's elemental blast in time to create 4 KB and utilize 5 elemenetal blast despite Shin Suusenju having the head start, and Shunshin at roughly the same rate as Tobirama and Hashirama. I can't see how that would lead someone to believe that without both these handicaps his speed and reactions would only be average. 

His physical strength is implied to be at a level where in his Prime he could throw around  Enma-Staff without any issue whatsoever. Suigetsu, who by nature is a physical Kenjutsu fighter, considered Zabuza's sword to be quite heavy, and Enma's-Staff especially in it's extended or increased size forms would naturally be much more heavy than that. So his strength as well I can't see as being average.

As for stamina even weakened by Old-Age and further weakened as Tensei was enough to utilize 4 KB and 5 exceptionally large elemental ninjutsu, and not be totally depleted. Beyond that Orochimaru specifically implies that Prime-Hiruzen would utilize KB very freely, to the point where going into CQC w/o making a single KB was deemed extremely out of character for Hiruzen. Basically the way that KB is highlighted as main aspect of Hiruzen's fighting style certainly does seem to leave the impression that his stamina was indeed quite high in his hey day.



> Onoki is a good example of this, where his stamina obviously suffered in his old age, but not to the point that he had to hold back in his chakra usage mid-battle like Hiruzen did. Onoki's techniques used up far more chakra than the ones Hiruzen used against Orochimaru too.


Onoki is not a good example. Everyone ages differently and tries to handle aging differently. Onoki could be training to keep himself in shape much more than Hiruzen was or he could have simply aged much more gracefully due to the genes he inherit or potentially even as an effect of his Kekkai Tota. Heck Onoki could have just been one of the biggest stamina beasts in his youth, and thus he degraded as much, but it's not as noticeable. There are a myriad of reasons that this comparison does not offer any kind of credible evidence when it comes to how age effected Hiruzen.

Beyond that quite a-lot of Onoki's performance was augment by his stone-will allowing him to force himself further and further beyond his limits. Hiruzen's WOF also allowed him to do the same thing, enabling him to utilize Shiki Fuujin, maintain enma's summoning, and play tug of war with Orochimaru's soul, for nearly an hour straight, all while having a sword jammed in and out of his gut; but for some reason people never want to talk about that.



> Even if we analyse the events that take place in Hiruzen's life, his hype still doesn't make sense. He gets tossed aside when tries to stop Orochimaru from leaving Konoha


Tossed aside? He fought Orochimaru to a nigh draw, despite Orochimaru having significant advantages like prepping Edo-Tensei before hand, having S4 to control the battlefield, and not having the psychological hang ups that Hiruzen had. In-fact the fight would have ended in a draw if not for the simple fact that Orochimaru got lucky enough that his sword landed in the right spot to use his Jutsu on it to pierce it through Hiruzen's gut. The fan-book itself considered the fight close enough to deem Old-Hiruzen and Orochimaru as nigh equal shinobi. 

I don't really see how Hiruzen significantly handicapped by age still being nigh equal to Orochimaru diminishes Hiruzen's hype, unless were talking the strongest Hokage hype, in which case I don't think anyone is really defending that anymore.



> When he was about the same age as the Sannin are in Part II, he requires the help of the entirety of Konoha to put up a decent fight against the Kyuubi.


Anyone who is not Hashirama "level" or doesn't have a special ability tailored to defeat/suppress the Fox (and heck even Hashirama had an ability tailored to dealing with it), stands absolutely no chance against it. Even 50% Kurama packs enough power to put most of the verse to shame. The very fact that Hiruzen was able to to be on the front lines and the man leading the charge that repelled the Fox is nothing short of extremely impressive. And before we start talking back up, consider how much did back up really matter against the giant Bijuu monsters in the war, it was always the guys in the forefront like Hiruzen was that were doing most of the heavy lifting.

Beyond that it's very clear that Prime-Hiruzen is the one who looks the same as the image of him on the Hokage mountain, while he still looked like an Old-Man during Kurama's attack, and therefore still was not at his best. So you basically have a handicapped Hiruzen still holding off one of the strongest entities in the manga, with what probably amounts to not as much assistance as one would expect.​


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2014)

> Likewise, Kabuto says that Hiruzen was the strongest of the Gokage even in his old age, but Kabuto bases this on the hype that Hiruzen gained from his youth. Even then, Kabuto is so young and comparatively inexperienced that his knowledge on the current Gokage of that time - Onoki, Ei, Mei and Rasa, is limited.


Wait the guy who was keeping info cards and traveled the world as one of the greatest spy's of his age has limited intel? And where does Kabuto say he was basing it on Hiruzen's Prime capabilities. You talk about Kabuto being young, but than he has knowledge of Hiruzen Prime capabilities, but not the Kages whose villages he spied on compiling tons of data on. This especially seems dubious when Kabuto was talking in the context of Orochimaru having done well to defeat Hiruzen, I.E. the Old-Hiruzen, not the Prime-Hiruzen, which would make Kabuto an idiot for basing analysis on Prime-Hiruzen capabilities within that context.

Old-Hiruzen was the strongest Kage during that time, and that is completely believable to me considering his vast plethora of Ninjutsu give him a myriad of counters to the Gokages capabilities.



> Kakashi and Hiruzen are probably quite interchangeable on this tier list, with both being on a similar level of strength. However, Hiruzen is indisputably weaker than the other five.


Why are Hiruzen and Kakashi interchangable? Because they both mastered many jutsu? To hell with the fact that Hiruzen has demonstrated greater proficiency in the 5 nature changes than Kakashi outside Raiton. To hell with the fact that we don't know how Hiruzen physical capabilities stack up with Kakashi's. To hell with the fact that Hiruzen has mastered vastly more Jutsu than Kakashi. To hell with the fact that Hiruzen actually reach his prime and thus fulfilled his talent which was greater than Tobirama's, while Kakashi is still developing as a ninja.. To hell with the fact that Hiruzen summoning is better than Kakashi's. To hell with the fact that Hiruzen is implied to have much more stamina than Kakashi, in his Prime. To hell with the fact that Hiruzen has a better triumph card than Kakashi via Shiki Fuujin.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Even 50% Kurama packs enough power to put most of the verse to shame.



SM Naruto was putting up a decent fight against it... 



> The very fact that Hiruzen was able to to be on the front lines and the man leading the charge that repelled the Fox is nothing short of extremely impressive.



Hiruzen & most of the leaf village would have been _erased_ before they were able to move it an inch had it not been for Minato. Yondaime had to save his and the Leaf's ass not once but _twice._

Also, don't give me that "Minato's abilities are better suited for the situation." If Minato by himself can do better than Hiruzen and the entire Leaf military, then Minato's abilities are just on a higher level period. 



> And before we start talking back up, consider how much did back up really matter against the giant Bijuu monsters in the war, it was always the guys in the forefront like Hiruzen was that were doing most of the heavy lifting.



A bunch a fodder were able to accomplish a good deal against the Jubi's initial form.

Furthermore, fodder had to have killed Hashirama, because I believe it was stated that he fell in battle.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> SM Naruto was putting up a decent fight against it...
> .


You mean SM-Naruto w/ Kushina's help managed to do some damage to it, that it would have quickly regenerated from if not for the special dimension enabling Naruto to rip out it's chakra, and it would have still murdered KCM-Naruto w/ it's Giant TBB if not for the special dimension and key enabling Naruto to reseal it in time to stop it's attack? 50% Kurama was strong enough that it's Chakra Roar sent Bijuu flying away like nothing and it could form TBB's that equaled out to the combined might of 5 Tailed-Beasts. Basically 50% Kurama had power equal to 5 Tailed-Beast, or potentially even a bit more, and those 5 included someone of the strongest Tailed-Beast like the Shichibi, Rokubi, and Gobi. For most Ninja in the verse a single Tailed-Beast is too much to handle. The Akatsuki moved in pairs to ensure their success against Jinchuuriki who many times could not utilize the full power of a single Tailed Beast. Even some of the strongest Kages like Sandaime-Raikage only could fight stronger Bijuu like the Hachibi to a draw. Nearly no one in the verse stands any chance against 5 Tailed Beasts, and 100% Kurama is even stronger than that. No one in verse that is bellow Hashirama level can hope to beat 100% Kurama w/o specialized powers (which incidentally Hashirama still had). Even Deva Path at full power using Nagato's strongest Technique was struggling against not even full power 50% Kurama, and could only maybe have a chance to contain just KN8 with a strong Chibaku Tensei than any we saw on panel from Nagato. Super Charged Deva Path utilizing Chibaku Tensei is already stronger than most of the verse.



> Hiruzen & most of the leaf village would have been erased before they were able to move it an inch had it not been for Minato. Yondaime had to save his and the Leaf's ass not once but twice.


And this is based on what? Who says that Hiruzen and the others couldn't handle a TBB. In-fact I find it highly suspect that Kurama the entire time Minato was dealing with Tobi didn't use a single TBB.



> Also, don't give me that "Minato's abilities are better suited for the situation." If Minato by himself can do better than Hiruzen and the entire Leaf military, then Minato's abilities are just on a higher level period.


Minato didn't do better by himself. Hiruzen and others were pushing the fox back with martial might, after fighting the fox for much longer than Minato ever did by himself. Minato stopped two TBB and that's it, everything beyond that should be credit to Minato's and Kushina's combined capabilities, and whether Minato was a good match up or not aside; Kushina certainly was, and was the sole reason Minato was able to do anything meaningful to the Fox.



> A bunch a fodder were able to accomplish a good deal against the Jubi's initial form.


They literally accomplished nothing. And that was the entire alliance of 5 nations, utilizing a strategy by a master strategist., which is in no way even remotely comparable to hastily assembled Konohagakure shinobi that were attack in the middle of the night. 



> Furthermore, fodder had to have killed Hashirama, because I believe it was stated that he fell in battle.


And why exactly does it have to be Fodder? Their are a myriad of ways Hashirama could have perished w/o it being fodder, and hell Fodder wouldn't even make sense, considering the entire shinobi alliance admitted they could do nothing in Hashirama/Madara's battle, and that was a watered down Hashirama weakened from Edo-Tensei. So unless randomly there was a Squad of fodder that drastically outnumber the shinobi alliance, it doesn't even begin to make sense that Hashirama could have fallen to fodder.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You mean SM-Naruto w/ Kushina's help managed to do some damage to it, that it would have quickly regenerated from if not for the special dimension enabling Naruto to rip out it's chakra?



I said put up a decent fight. Cloine feinting it, suplexing it, and slamming a Rasenshuriken into its chest making it scream in pain is decent to me, even if Naruto would have eventually lost. 



> 50% Kurama was strong enough that it's Chakra Roar sent Bijuu flying away like nothing and it could form TBB's that equaled out to the combined might of 5 Tailed-Beasts. Basically 50% Kurama had power equal to 5 Tailed-Beast, or potentially even a bit more, and those 5 included someone of the strongest Tailed-Beast like the Shichibi, Rokubi, and Gobi.



I think you mean BM Naruto, who has more focused & controlled chakra than 50% Kurama.



> And this is based on what? Who says that Hiruzen and the others couldn't handle a TBB.



Because if Minato let that Bijudama hit the Hokage mountain, everyone dies.

He also stood there and watched Kurama charge up another one and slumped to the ground. 

He also hasn't and never will show anything that can deal with Bijudama. He hasn't even shown a defense comparable to Orochimaru's Rashomon.



> In-fact I find it highly suspect that Kurama the entire time Minato was dealing with Tobi didn't use a single TBB.



I don't, considering that Obito and Minato's fight wasn't that long and the village would have been destroyed.



> Minato stopped two TBB and that's it



...and that's better, because had he not stopped them, bye bye Konoha.



> They literally accomplished nothing. And that was the entire alliance of 5 nations, utilizing a strategy by a master strategist., which is in no way even remotely comparable to hastily assembled Konohagakure shinobi that were attack in the middle of the night.



Actually, they did accomplish something against the first form Jubi; they covered it in cement. You don't make sense. If the fodder were completely useless against Kurama, then Hiruzen would have hid them away in the forest and fought the damn thing himself to limit casualties. 

Oh, and while Konoha isn't comparable to the alliance, the Kyubi isn't comparable to the Jubi.



> And why exactly does it have to be Fodder? Their are a myriad of ways Hashirama could have perished w/o it being fodder



Name a few.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 10, 2014)

Yeah...a bunch of fodder ran into a brick wall just trying to stop Orochimaru's snakes during the Invasion of Konoha, until Jiraiya intervened. That's our example of Konoha fodders- the kind of people who would have been helping Hiruzen.

And who's to say Hashirama didn't fall in battle to, say, an ambush by an alliance of Kage levels?



Rocky said:


> _None_ of it was ever brought up again; Hiruzen was rarely mentioned in Part II.



Not brought up in Part 2 = never brought up again? Even if it was only in Part 1 Prime/younger Hiruzen was mentioned multiple times.



> I don't believe Hashirama was the only one retconned. Actually, I'd say that Kishimoto changed his mind about where _all_ of the previous Hokage were supposed to stand.





> If you can confirm that Kishimoto changed his about only Hashirama and none of the others, then I'll agree with you.



That's your little red wagon to carry, not mine.

I'm pretty sure you're the one who quoted me complaining about Hiruzen's placement. The onus is upon you to confirm that he changed his mind about everyone else, because it doesn't just naturally follow from Hashirama being retconned to be more powerful that Hiruzen is suddenly weaker than any of the other Hokages besides Hashirama.

Ironically, the only times we get a comparison between a young Hiruzen and another Hokage in Part 2 it's heavily implying that Hiruzen is still the superior; so I've no good reason to believe Kishimoto decided to change his mind about where every Hokage is supposed to stand, just reason to believe the contrary.



> It isn't like we never got a fight from a younger Sandaime.



?

We haven't. We know he held the Nine Tails back and pushed it out of the village but what does that count for when we did not see how he did it? Minato could hardly be said to have had a proper fight against that thing himself, y'know.



> This strongest of the Five Kage, Orochimaru-beating, super professor Hiruzen was largely useless against Kurama and needed Minato to stop the fox from blowing him and his village to smithereens.



Hiruzen hadn't even moved out until after the first Bijūdama had already been fired and redirected, and yet he complains "not again" once the Nine Tails is about to shoot off another blast upon being forced out of the village. Additionally, when Gamabunta landed Kurama's mouth was pointing to the side and not at Hiruzen, and in spite of that before the teleport we see that Hiruzen is now standing directly in front of it. He _may_ have been about to attempt to stop the shot in some way or another.

Also, saying a "worn" Minato is just that much better a matchup seems like it might be a tad bit misleading when you realize that Minato was worn out _by_ the Kyūbi. Minato could deal with the fox more effectively for no reason other than the fact that he wasn't relying on sheer force to move it away, and even still he couldn't keep teleporting it away like that for long due to its sheer size. It's not like he could have gone and legitimately damaged and/or _defeated_ the Nine Tails through his own efforts any more than Hiruzen did were he fighting it in Kushina and Naruto's absence. He'd have soon after run out of Chakra, at which point it would just walk back over to the village's area and proceed to destroy it when he's passed out.

Now _Kushina_ could have defeated it (though after a while it would start reviving), but it's canon that she's so much better of a matchup against it than anyone else. That was actually _the entire reason they moved her from Uzushiogakure to Konoha in order to become its Jinchūriki_.



> Even if all of this hype were true, everything listed applies to Minato as well, in my opinion at least.



Even if it did (and I don't think it _all_ does) that wouldn't take away from my point. This hype is all referring to the _same entity_, the entity that was originally intended to be the strongest of the Hokage. This entity's power did not change, is what I'm getting at, another contender's strength was simply increased by the retcon, and said character is ridiculously more powerful than any of the remaining Hokages. Therefore, Hashirama being retconned to be stronger than Hiruzen even in his prime wouldn't open the doors for Minato to be his superior as well, because they're separate and non-comparable in strength. The change should only apply exclusively to Hashirama until it is proven otherwise.



> I have never held Minato above the Sannin merely due to character praise.
> 
> I don't think gap is really anything too large in the grand scheme of things, but it's there. Similar to Itachi if it helps.



It's merely part of the cumulative case explanation for why I placed Hiruzen where I did in _my_ list, so you really don't have to agree with it to that end. But I'm saying they're close, not that they're exactly the same, otherwise I'd have put:
"_*4.)*_ Minato/Tobirama/Peak Performance Tsunade" instead of "_*4.)*_ Minato/Tobirama
_*5.)*_ Peak Performance Tsunade"

Comparing him to Itachi doesn't really do much to help because I only consider even Itachi to be slightly stronger than the Prodigal Three, so I would still only find Minato to be _slightly_ more impressive because I already saw them in a relatively similar light. I mean just because a gap is there doesn't mean it's significant enough to be very concerned with.

We know what Itachi has to say to Kisame about facing Jiraiya, and even if you think he was lying that lie still had to first be _believable_ in order to work, and that would point towards them being rather close in power (even if we can see through Orochimaru's own admission that Itachi is stronger to some extent or another). Furthermore, Pain is _even stronger_ than Itachi yet still deemed Jiraiya a threat and got his plans delayed experiencing difficulty bringing the Sannin down (even admitting that he would have lost if Jiraiya only had knowledge of his secret), which even prompted Obito to state that the Sannin lived up to his praise.

Honestly, I don't think Obito is "far more" impressive than Pain is, or really at all but certainly not sizably so, and that's the most impressive person we've seen Minato best. But let's put that into perspective: intel was no game-changer in that fight, and Minato himself apparently saw the clash going either way. Afterwards he even went on to say that this particular adversary couldn't be fought against without some special ability, which is the basis of his reasoning for sealing Kurama's Yang half inside of Naruto- so that someone might be able to truly stop this guy. That considered it seems rather clear to me that his success wasn't due to him being the better combatant or anything- it actually appears that he was inferior overall, so it looks like it's within the Sannin's ability to remain competitive here.

So again, I'd much sooner just put the Third ahead of every remaining Hokage instead of trying to fit him into a gap I don't consider to be very great to begin with.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I said put up a decent fight. Cloine feinting it, suplexing it, and slamming a Rasenshuriken into its chest making it scream in pain is decent to me, even if Naruto would have eventually lost.
> .


I wouldn't consider that a good fight, like at all.



> I think you mean BM Naruto, who has more focused & controlled chakra than 50% Kurama.


The abilities I cited are all ones Kurama is capable of on his own. Chakra Road, TBB, etc...



> Because if Minato let that Bijudama hit the Hokage mountain, everyone dies.


Okay and again, what says Hiruzen and the others couldn't stop that. 



> He also stood there and watched Kurama charge up another one and slumped to the ground.


After fighting Kurama for much longer than Minato did.



> He also hasn't and never will show anything that can deal with Bijudama. He hasn't even shown a defense comparable to Orochimaru's Rashomon


He hasn't even shown 1/1,000th of his abilities. Though he can use Doton to make Kyuubi misfire the same way Kitsuchi did with the Juubi.



> I don't, considering that Obito and Minato's fight wasn't that long and the village would have been destroyed.


It was long enough, and even after that Minato had to travel over there.



> ..and that's better, because had he not stopped them, bye bye Konoha.


and had Hiruzen not held off Kurama, bye bye Konoha too.



> Actually, they did accomplish something against the first form Jubi; they covered it in cement.


Which accomplished what?



> If the fodder were completely useless against Kurama, then Hiruzen would have hid them away in the forest and fought the damn thing himself to limit casualties.


I didn't say useless, I said most likely Hiruzen did most of the heavy lifting. 



> Oh, and while Konoha isn't comparable to the alliance, the Kyubi isn't comparable to the Jubi.


Okay and again what did the fodder accomplish against the Juubi; nothing.

I mean look it, in every battle in the war there were thousands off fodder backing certain shinobi up, and yes they proved useful in some minor regards, but ultimately the named characters that were front and center did all the heavy lifting. Given that I don't know why suddenly you expect me to believe that the fodder in this specific instance were some HUGE help to Hiruzen.



> Name a few.


Someone poisoned him. Handicapped by age. Assassinated. Some Super Squad. Who knows, heck I don't think even Kishi knows, but clearly the fodder explanation would not make any sense.

Edit: Also to clarify Rocky I don't think Prime-Hiruzen is better than Minato by a huge margin, I think he is just slightly better overall given what is stated about him in the Manga and Data-books. The way I see it is that Prime-Hiruzen, Minato, Tobirama, and Tsunade all occupy the same "tier", but Prime-Hiruzen is at the very top of that, while Minato and Tobirama are near the top with Minato being slightly ahead of Tobirama, and Tsuande/Old-Hiruzen are near the middle. I don't think any of them have the ability to rise to the next "tier" because they all lack that essential connection to Kaguya (or Eight-Gates, which are for some reason the only non-Kaguya related power that can contend with the higher tier characters). 

Also I will further clarify that i'm referring to Living-Minato; Edo-Minato would be stronger than Prime-Hiruzen due to having the power of the Nine-Tails. But without that power I just can't see him being better than someone whose more talented than Tobirama, and lived a full life and therefore logically achieved that talent, and demosntrates it by essentially mastering every Ninja-Art and mastering every Ninjutsu in the leaf village.

Hashirama ☻ Large Gap ☻ Edo Minato ☻ Large Gap ☻ Prime Hiruzen ☻ Slight Gap ☻ Minato ☻ Slight Gap ☻Tobirama ☻ Small Gap ☻ Tsunade

Is how I see it.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> And who's to say Hashirama didn't fall in battle to, say, an ambush by an alliance of Kage levels?



What Kage levels?



> Not brought up in Part 2 = never brought up again? Even if it was only in Part 1 Prime/younger Hiruzen was mentioned multiple times.




What is "multiple times?"



> I'm pretty sure you're the one who quoted me complaining about Hiruzen's placement. The onus is upon you to confirm that he changed his mind about everyone else, because it doesn't just naturally follow from Hashirama being retconned to be more powerful that Hiruzen is suddenly weaker than any of the other Hokages besides Hashirama.



You're right. I'll concede that I don't really have enough to say your opinion is wrong.



> We haven't. We know he held the Nine Tails back and pushed it out of the village but what does that count for when we did not see how he did it?



Because we know that he can't deal with it at all when it uses its trump card, despite all of his back up.



> Hiruzen hadn't even moved out until after the first Bijūdama had already been fired and redirected, and yet he complains "not again" once the Nine Tails is about to shoot off another blast upon being forced out of the village. Additionally, when Gamabunta landed Kurama's mouth was pointing to the side and not at Hiruzen, and in spite of that before the teleport we see that Hiruzen is now standing directly in front of it. He _may_ have been about to attempt to stop the shot in some way or another.



Hiruzen was standing in front of the fox as the smoke was clearing from its mouth on the very next page, so it isn't at all impossible that he saw Minato get rid of it. It's actually likely that he did.

Furthermore, Hiruzen never moved from his original position. When he observes Bijudama's explosion on the horizon, _you can see the same leaf shinobi standing next to him as before Minato got there. _ All Hiruzen was doing there was raising his staff and making a face that suggested he was preparing for obliteration, or at least that's what it looked like to me.



> It's not like he could have gone and legitimately damaged and/or _defeated_ the Nine Tails through his own efforts any more than Hiruzen did were he fighting it in Kushina and Naruto's absence. He'd have soon after run out of Chakra, at which point it would just walk back over to the village's area and proceed to destroy it when he's passed out.



Minato doesn't have a very powerful offense, but a mastery of space and time jutsu changes thing. Has Minato not had to worry about killing everybody, that Bijudama would have been on its way back towards Kurama instead of in the middle of a forest somewhere. And if Madara's actions at the Valley of the End are anything to go by, it isn't no-selling its own bomb.

Now, maybe Hiruzen is a city buster and wasn't using his full power against the fox for that reason, and in that case I would have to concede, but I doubt that's the case.



> This entity's power did not change, is what I'm getting at



Yes, and my opinion is that it did, based on how the character was handled. Hashirama becoming stronger than Hiruzen is not the sole reason I believe the baseless praise Hiruzen received incredibly early on to be false over a decade later. 



> Honestly, I don't think Obito is "far more" impressive than Pain is, or really at all but certainly not sizably so, and that's the most impressive person we've seen Minato best.



Pain killed Jiraiya in an unfavorable location (for a fighter like Pain), without some of his strongest techniques to boot, and went in guns blazing against Tsunade on her home turf and obliterated it.

The Sannin did not "best" him.



> But let's put that into perspective: intel was no game-changer in that fight, and Minato himself apparently saw the clash going either way. Afterwards he even went on to say that this particular adversary couldn't be fought against without some special ability, which is the basis of his reasoning for sealing Kurama's Yang half inside of Naruto- so that someone might be able to truly stop this guy. That considered it seems rather clear to me that his success wasn't due to him being the better combatant or anything- it actually appears that he was inferior overall, so it looks like it's within the Sannin's ability to remain competitive here.



Maybe the viz is different, but Minato said that whoever was faster would win. That doesn't mean that he didn't believe he was faster, and he probably did as he didn't bother swapping out with a clone (or doing anything) to test Obito's speed and ensure he didn't lose.

Secondly, saying that Obito "couldn't be fought against without a special ability" didn't apply to himself...because I'm almost certain that Minato's engagement with Obito 30 seconds prior counts as a fight. A fight Minato won, which also covers the point on him being inferior. If he was, he wouldn't have won.

Lastly, I never thought the Sannin couldn't or wouldn't be competitive against Minato. I just don't think they'd take him down the majority of the time.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I wouldn't consider that a good fight, like at all.



Strange opinion, but to each his own.



> The abilities I cited are all ones Kurama is capable of on his own. Chakra Road, TBB, etc...



That doesn't mean those techniques are on the level that BM Naruto uses them at.



> Okay and again, what says Hiruzen and the others couldn't stop that.



Because they had no way of knowing Minato was there to stop it for them, meaning it would have connected had he not been there.

Bijudama going off in the village would pretty much kill everyone. 



> After fighting Kurama for much longer than Minato did.



Longer than Minato did, but neither conflict was exactly long.



> He hasn't even shown 1/1,000th of his abilities. Though he can use Doton to make Kyuubi misfire the same way Kitsuchi did with the Juubi.



If he can Doton on the level of a specialist like Kitsuchi, or at least well enough to throw off the fox's aim that badly. 

Though Minato would have heard it go off and wondered if the village was okay, so I doubt it used Bijudama more than twice that night regardless. 



> It was long enough, and even after that Minato had to travel over there.



No it wasn't, and Minato's travel time is nonexistent with Hiraishin.



> and had Hiruzen not held off Kurama, bye bye Konoha too.



Kurama can't destroy the leaf in such a brief amount of time without Bijudama. 



> Which accomplished what?



Froze it in place until it powered up to break out.



> I didn't say useless, I said most likely Hiruzen did most of the heavy lifting.



Oh, well of course he played the largest part as Hokage.

My entire point was that Hiruzen with non-useless backup did worse than Minato did.



> Also to clarify Rocky I don't think Prime-Hiruzen is better than Minato by a huge margin, I think he is just slightly better overall given what is stated about him in the Manga and Data-books.



I already said I didn't have a problem with that, but I'm a Minato wanker evaluate actual feats as important too, and Minato and Hiruzen's respective performances in the Konoha flashback lead to Minato being superior at a time where all of Hiruzen's professor hype would apply.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Strange opinion, but to each his own.


I don't really see what's strange about it. Kurama didn't even get to use a fraction of his power against Naruto do to circumstance.



> That doesn't mean those techniques are on the level that BM Naruto uses them at.


What does the element of Naruto add to Chakra Roar? As for TBB, 50% Kurama even after having some of his chakra ripped out showed a TBB that was nearly the size of the one i'm citing, so I feel confident he could do create one as large on his own, if he was at full strength. 



> Because they had no way of knowing Minato was there to stop it for them, meaning it would have connected had he not been there.
> 
> Bijudama going off in the village would pretty much kill everyone.


I find it extremely unlikely that not a single Konohagakure Shinobi was a sensor or not a single Hyuuga was present. 

But ether way were they even assembled when that first TBB went off?



> Longer than Minato did, but neither conflict was exactly long.


How are you measuring time?



> If he can Doton on the level of a specialist like Kitsuchi, or at least well enough to throw off the fox's aim that badly.


Which given his display against Shin Suusenju, and mastering all Jutsu in the leaf village, and the ability to use mutiple doton at once through KB, i'm confident he can.



> hough Minato would have heard it go off and wondered if the village was okay, so I doubt it used Bijudama more than twice that night regardless.


Now your just reading too deeply. Kishi shouldn't haven to explain this stuff to the level of detail your demanding here.



> No it wasn't, and Minato's travel time is nonexistent with Hiraishin.


Where Minato appeared with Hiraishin was still a fair distance away from Kurama.



> Kurama can't destroy the leaf in such a brief amount of time without Bijudama.


Again I disagree with the notion that he wasn't using TBB, though even if he didn't I disagree with this notion regardless. Chakra Roars double the strength of 50% Kurama that sent 5 Bijuu flying, godzilla size, immense speed and strength, and so on is enough to own the village in that time.



> Froze it in place until it powered up to break out.


So it did nothing. 



> Oh, well of course he played the largest part as Hokage.
> 
> My entire point was that Hiruzen with non-useless backup did worse than Minato did.


I don't see how he did worse than Minato. They both defend the Fox's attacks, Hiruzen defended them longer and actually pushed the fox back. Minato only did better w/ Kushina's help.



> I already said I didn't have a problem with that, but I'm a Minato wanker evaluate actual feats as important too, and Minato and Hiruzen's respective performances in the Konoha flashback lead to Minato being superior at a time where all of Hiruzen's professor hype would apply.


Again Hiruzen Prime Hype refers to when he looked like he did on the statue, which is younger than he was in the Kyuubi flashback.

And the Kyuubi attack doesn't imply anything as if Minato tried to duke it out with Kyuubi as Hiruzen did he would be just as ineffectual, as nether him or Hiruzen could hope to accomplish anything, but defend the beast for a time.

Actual feats are important, but the comparison is flawed as Prime-Hiruzen has had no panel time versus Minato who has had a-lot. Also it's much more difficult to portray Hiruzen capabilities considering the type of Ninja he is; someone whose mastered Thousands upon thousands of Ninjutsu. How do you show that w/o giving the character an astronomical amount of panel time? You could give Hiruzen as much panel time as Naruto and he probably would still only show a fraction of what he's capable of. So in this case especial a feats based discussion is not the best way to approach the subject.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2014)

Also worth considering that Hiruzen was probably keeping his power level around 1% because he was in Konoha.

That's the only thing that saved Kurama, I dare say.​


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 13, 2014)

In terms of feats and who has shown the most offensive jutsu and has the most battle time shown

1. Naruto
No explanation needed, main character and strongest ninja in the manga

2. Kakashi
He's a main character, been around since the beginning, so of course he would've shown more than most. He's been in a number of different battles and has shown so many different techniques. A rank level water styke, earth styke, s rank lightning, Mangekyou, copying others techniques, genjutsu, taijutsu. Everything.

3. Hashirama
Kishi was literally throwing out jutsu upon jutsu for this guy. He showed more jutsu in his first appearance than some of Hokage's who have had multiple appearances. So unfair, kishi doesn't know how to equally show off his characters.

4. Hiruzen 
Displaying all elements alone is why he's 4th place. And he knows multiple techniques for each element and has shown mastery of each element to a high level.

5. Tsunade
Tsuande has shown her medical expertise countless times, her taijutsu prowess, she has the ability to completely scramble ones nervous system. Byakugo which gives her godly strength and she can heal from almost anything. She got a full written fight against Kabuto and Madara. And even against Orichimaru.

6. Tobirama
I don't know why kishi doesn't show much of FTG users. He died off panel and despite all the jutsu he invented, he only really uses a couple. However was well shown off in part 1 when he was orochimaru's Edo. Showed his water prowess,  Fought Hiruzen, Izuna, Madara and Obito. He's shown more offensive jutsu than minato overall.

7. Minato
Minato has the least battle screen time of each Hokage. Literally, he only had one proper fight before his death (against Obito), which only lasted 2 mins. His little skirmish with Ay and bee was hardly a fight either. We know he's powerful, but it's always hard to judge him because kishi refused to show his full arsenal. Where are the wind, fire and lightning techniques that he supposedly knows. Where are all the jutsu that jiraya supposedly taught him, the amazing sealing jutsu that he's supposed to be highly skilled at. The databook says he invented many jutsu in his own style, so where are they. Kishi honestly couldn't be bothered with minato. FTG and rasengan are the only techniques he uses. He barely shows summons either. When minato is about to do something new, kishi decides it's best to make it fail -_-


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 13, 2014)

^
Minato is pretty weak with only 3 elements but I still wouldn't put him below Kakashi, Hiruzen and Tsunade. Now you'r being too unfair.


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## Kyu (Nov 13, 2014)

> 4. Hiruzen
> Displaying all elements alone is why he's 4th place. And he knows multiple techniques for each element and has shown mastery of each element to a high level.



Quality > Quantity



Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> Minato is pretty weak with only 3 elements




Itachi also had 3.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 13, 2014)

Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama/Minato/Tsunade*
Kakashi/Hiruzen
^That's Kakashi w/o sharingan.
*That's assuming a supportive role


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 13, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki that list...what the fuck man 

Also what's with the wave of elemental wank going on lately. We ain't never seen no one use most of those randomly given elements so why give a darn? Guess hiruzen>itachi, minato and killer bee because he got all seven and they don't.


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## trance (Nov 14, 2014)

Naruto is over yet people still think Hiruzen's hype is justified?


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> SM Naruto was putting up a decent fight against it...




Pretty sure that was considered to be a mindscape feat and that those feats didn't count. 



> A bunch a fodder were able to accomplish a good deal against the Jubi's initial form.
> 
> Furthermore, fodder had to have killed Hashirama, because I believe it was stated that he fell in battle.



Well Hashirama was old enough to be a grandfather at that point, as he remembers meeting little Tsunade and spoiling her.


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## Altair21 (Nov 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> Minato is pretty weak with only 3 elements but I still wouldn't put him below Kakashi, Hiruzen and Tsunade. Now you'r being too unfair.



Itachi also only has 3. It's like everytime you insult Minato you insult Itachi as well. 

And what's with that list Rasenko?  Kakashi no longer has his sharingan which means he's easily the weakest Hokage at this point. At least until he shows more. No way in hell are Minato and Tobirama below Tsunade and Hiruzen either.


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## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

When was the last time a non-Rikudo powered Elemental Jutsu was relevant?


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> When was the last time a non-Rikudo powered Elemental Jutsu was relevant?


They wouldn't be relevant against the Rikudo ultimate powers we've seen recently, but none of the Hokages bar Hashirama (and even he only to a certain extent) can contend with that power anyway, so that's a moot point.


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## Hachibi (Nov 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> They wouldn't be relevant against the Rikudo ultimate powers we've seen recently, but none of the Hokages bar Hashirama (and even he only to a certain extent) can contend with that power anyway, so that's a moot point.



Never compared Rikudo power with Elemental Jutsu. Reread my post.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 15, 2014)

Final Rankings in my opinion 


1. Naruto

2. Hashirama

3. Minato

4. Hiruzen

5. Danzo

6. Tobirama

7. Tsunade

8. Kakashi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 15, 2014)

I am starting a petition to prevent Eliyua from creating lists. Who is with me ?


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## Sparrow (Nov 17, 2014)

At their peaks _as Hokage._

Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama
Hiruzen
Minato
Kakashi
Tsunade

I'm probably putting Minato much lower than most people, but he simply didn't impress me at all when we got to see him in action. His signature technique was proven to be created and equally mastered by Tobirama (who was much more impressive overall in the war IMO) and he came off as a fighter with weaker versions of other people's skills. Sage mode and Kyubbi chakra are strong, but it didn't leave much of an impression on me. Tobirama and Naruto do the same things and better.


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## Seraphoenix (Nov 18, 2014)

Sparrow said:


> At their peaks _as Hokage._
> 
> Naruto
> Hashirama
> ...



That's not what the databook says.

Besides during the war Tobirama was always looking at Minato for guidance and praising him whole day.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 18, 2014)

Altair21 said:


> Itachi also only has 3. It's like everytime you insult Minato you insult Itachi as well.
> 
> And what's with that list Rasenko?  Kakashi no longer has his sharingan which means he's easily the weakest Hokage at this point. At least until he shows more. No way in hell are Minato and Tobirama below Tsunade and Hiruzen either.



My list isn't about strength. It's about feats, showing and screen time.

I thought I'd do a different list.


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## Ghost (Nov 18, 2014)

Hokage incarnations:

1. Naruto


2. Hashirama

3. Minato
4. Tobirama

5. Tsunade
6. Hiruzen
7. Kakashi


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