# Spain vs Japan circa 1587



## Yagura (May 27, 2012)

*Spain vs Japan circa 1587 *​*Restrictions:* None.
*State of Mind:* Spanish wish to conquer Japan. 
*Conditions:*  Japan magically switches geographic locations with Britain. The Japanese leadership have two months warning.

Can the Spanish successfully  conquer  all of Japan? If not, how far do they get?


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

Any takers?


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## Voyeur (May 28, 2012)

Spain wins due to guns. Japan was an isolated country, so they were pretty late on receiving more advanced weapons.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

IIRC, I believe that  matchlock muskets were introduced to the Japanese in the 1540's and were used extensively from then on until they were either banned completely or phased out upon the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate in the early 17th century.


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## Voyeur (May 28, 2012)

Yagura said:


> IIRC, I believe that  matchlock muskets were introduced to the Japanese in the 1540's and were used extensively from then on until they were either banned completely or phased out upon the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate in the early 17th century.



That is true, but they weren't mass produced until the 1560s, thus Spain has the advantage of having them mass produced. And Spain's navy was  mightier than Japan's as well and could bombard them.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

I can't remember where, but I read that at the time of the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 Japan rivaled European nations in the total number of firearms produced, and were able to field around like, 40,000 - 50,000 gunners. It would also be wise to consider  that at the time, Japan had a larger population then that of most European countries.


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## Blue (May 28, 2012)

No kamikaze (the original, not the ineffective mortal knockoff) means a curbstomp.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

err, could you elaborate on what your referring to?


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## Owl (May 28, 2012)

I don't think the Japanese had canons during those times.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

Good luck using the English Strait as Strategic Location. (Refer to Japan/UK) In other words if the Spain controls the English Channel Strait or ally with France well GG Japan.

Here is a view of the English Channel Straits.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

I suppose I didn't specify it in the OP, but yeah, no outside help or interference. And I'm not sure how controlling the English channel means GG Japan, considering they would still need to invade to actually conquer Japan.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

Yagura said:


> I suppose I didn't specify it in the OP, but yeah, no outside help or interference. And I'm not sure how controlling the English channel means GG Japan, considering they would still need to invade to actually conquer Japan.



That isn't what I meant. What I meant is that conrtolling the English Channel no supplies are import or export. So Spain will wait until the Japan is exhausted or defeat to starvation. Its basic Military Warefare(Common Sense). 

But ok no France helping.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that Japan was sufficiently self reliant economically at that point, as it did not rely on foreign trade to feed its own people nor did they to acquire weapons.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

Yagura said:


> I'm pretty sure that Japan was sufficiently self reliant economically at that point, as it did not rely on foreign trade to feed its own people nor did they to acquire weapons.



Nope you are wrong. That was during Ieyasu Tokugawa Shogunate era(17th Century& After Battle at Sekigahara). After 1582 Nobunaga's death. Japan was in Chaos again. So Hideyoshi try to become shogun but wasn't an ancestor of Taira or Yamamoto. Hideyoshi didn't unite Japan around near his death 1598.

Hideyoshi accepts foreign culture but not Ieyasu. Although Hideyoshi did execute/expel some Chrisitan Preachers. However that was around near his death.

So again GG. And if you want more stomp Spainish Flu.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

I fail to see how that proves Japan was reliant on foreign aid.


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## Solrac (May 28, 2012)

As much as I REALLY want Japan to win this match, im not really sure.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

@Yagura 

The many victories Nobunaga Oda has over many other Daimyo was the usage Gun(Matchlock) an invention of Portuguese. The Portuguese first met the Japan around 1540-1550s. So there you go. Any counter proof otherwise in denial (your fail to comprehensions?) And for the last time 1500s-1600s Japan was in a Warring State.

@Future Reference

And seriously anyone wants to debate Real Life War need to starting reading some war journal, strategy, document and etc., before letting their baseless voice heard.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

Lol. That doesn't mean that they bought all their muskets from the Portuguese if that's what your trying to say, not even close.  The manufacturing of firearms was adopted all throughout Japan in the Sengoku era. 

And again,  you have yet to show me how the Spanish will starve Japan into submission.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

Yagura said:


> And again,  you have yet to show me how the Spanish will starve Japan into submission.





You leave me no choice. The Conquistador and Aztecs.



Now go and learn a little.



Yagura said:


> Lol. That doesn't mean that they bought all their muskets from the Portuguese if that's what your trying to say, not even close.  The manufacturing of firearms was adopted all throughout Japan in the Sengoku era.



No you have to proof that Japan adopt Firearm the moment Portuguese arrive. It is your implication when you say during Warring States. Because I don't think so.

Nope the Japanese never really adopt until the defeat/losing Imagawa Yoshimoto. Many Daimyou didn't rush to get Matchlock until the realizing Oda was the top of the Food Chain. So there you go. 

GG Japan. Inb4 Lock Mod.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

Oh wow. Your comparing a city to an entire nation. Brilliant. Never mind that the circumstances for both situations are completely different.  

I see nothing in that article that proves that Spain can successfully conquer and occupy Japan.



Anar G said:


> Many Daimyou didn't rush to get Matchlock until the realizing Oda was the top of the Food Chain. So there you.





> Circa 1587


Huh. Five years after Oda's death.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

Yagura said:


> Oh wow. Your comparing a city to an entire nation. Brilliant. Never mind that the circumstances for both situations are completely different.



 This is why you people shouldn't make War debates. 

No! It is YOU that is comparing Aztec (a Civilization) to Japan (a country).  

I want to see your debating skills against other OBDer in the near future. I am giving a feat Conquistador vs Aztecs. And you refuse. Some debater you are.

So far you provide no feat Japan on your side invading the size of Aztecs.



Yagura said:


> I see nothing in that article that proves that Spain can successfully conquer and occupy Japan.



Now you are in complete denial. I gave document of an aspect effect of starvation and weakening of the Aztecs. 

And you are in no position to say that: Burden of Proof.
You can only say that if you have a prove document of Japan warding off invaders. So either shape up or be claim as denial.



Yagura said:


> Huh. Five years after Oda's death.



And yes the time of Japan is in Chaos again. The time Hideyoshi uses his chance to claim Shogun. Your point?

So GG Japan Inb4 Lock Mod. You have no providence of Japan feat. Just baseless refusal.


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

God, your tiring. For one, your the one who brought up a link to an article in place of an actual argument as to how the Spanish starve Japan into submission without explaining how or why those events  which occurred 70 years prior on another side of the globe to an entirely different people applies to this completely dissimilar situation.



Anar G said:


> And yes the time of Japan is in Chaos again. The time Hideyoshi uses his chance to claim Shogun. Your point?



Lol. I don't even know anymore. You were trying to prove something about how Japan was reliant on foreign aid because they got all there guns from the Portuguese, which is incorrect. But who knows, as your terrible at getting your point across.


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## Solrac (May 28, 2012)

I still want Japan to win this match, but again I'm not too sure of the fullest capabilities of either country during this period.

Seeing any Japanese general hand Hernan Cortes his ass would be hilarious to me.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

Yagura said:


> God, your tiring. For one, your the one who brought up a link to an article in place of an actual argument as to how the Spanish starve Japan into submission without explaining how or why those events  which occurred 70 years prior on another side of the globe to an entirely different people applies to this completely dissimilar situation.



No you tire yourself. You lack the stamina to counter my argument and confuse yourself. That is all. Allow me elaborate my boy. 

Me: If Spain control English Strait. They can take stop supplies from coming in and out of Japan. Thus starving them.

You: Prove me a feat Spain has done this.

Me: I gave the link to Spain: The Siege of Tenochtitlan. This was the Aztecs last stand. Starvation play a role to Aztecs downfall.

The article was meant to prove that Spain use the starvation technique to overwhelm the Aztecs. 

You are suppose to present a feat Japan survive a starvation. Or counter invasion on the similar on the English Channel Strait. Thus counter my argument. You aren't giving any. Just refute and downplay my argument.




Yagura said:


> Lol. I don't even know anymore. You were trying to prove something about how Japan was reliant on foreign aid because they got all there guns from the Portuguese, which is incorrect. But who knows, as your terrible at getting your point across.



This is where you are wrong. I was proving that Japan in 1587 was in chaos again. And no you are just downplaying my argument. 

Portuguess arrive 1540s. Nobunaga purchase some hundreds of gun around 1550s. During those time Daimyou still haven't adapt the usage of Guns. 

It was during Yoshimoto defeat, many Daimyou realize they have to switch tactics. Thus the usage of guns. This is where you are correct.

During 1582 Nobunaga was kill. He was the closest to unify Japan. Hideyoshi a retainer use this time to become Shogun. He haven't unify Japan in 1587. So Japan is in chaos. Their isn't no unity at that time.  This is where you are wrong.

So I give Spain victory. GG Japan. 

Anyone wants to counter my argument, then state or post. Don't downplay others argument like you yourself. One day many will take your argument more consideration. You can only prove me wrong for downplaying you if you give me proof of Japan countering. I haven't see Japan countering starvation from outsider in 1587. If you can prove me wrong just show feat.

Otherwise Lock. Because I am the only one giving feat(or gives a damn) right now.


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## Barioth (May 28, 2012)

Pecola said:


> I still want Japan to win this match, but again I'm not too sure of the fullest capabilities of either country during this period.
> 
> Seeing any Japanese general hand Hernan Cortes his ass would be hilarious to me.



I will tell you this. Japan was in Warring States. Meanwhile the Spain was in contest with Britain and France finding new land/resource/gold and etc. Of course you may already know this. 

The reason I conclude Japan wasn't going to win in this scenario is because the feat of 1587 wasn't good. Maybe during Tokugawa Shogunate ruling is a better scenario.


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## Solrac (May 28, 2012)

Anar G said:


> I will tell you this. Japan was in Warring States. Meanwhile the Spain was in contest with Britain and France finding new land/resource/gold and etc. Of course you may already know this.
> 
> The reason I conclude Japan wasn't going to win in this scenario is because the feat of 1587 wasn't good. Maybe during Tokugawa Shogunate ruling is a better scenario.



Well I guess. 

but do you want Japan to win just as much as I do?


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## Yagura (May 28, 2012)

Anar G said:


> No you tire yourself. You lack the stamina to counter my argument and confuse yourself. That is all. Allow me elaborate my boy.



What tires me is your lack of reading comprehension and your inability to form an argument. And I'm a girl, sweetheart


> Me: If Spain control English Strait. They can take stop supplies from coming in and out of Japan. Thus starving them.



And here we go again.  What makes you think Japan was reliant on foreign sea trade for food or anything at all in the first place? This is like, the third time we've been through this. 



> You: Prove me a feat Spain has done this.



No. I asked you to show me how Japan was reliant on foreign trade.  You have yet to do this. Best work on that comprehension, bro.


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## Barioth (May 29, 2012)

Pecola said:


> Well I guess.
> 
> but do you want Japan to win just as much as I do?



I am indifferent on both side. Again if the OP wants Japan at least a fighting chance. Put Japan condition on Unification or Tokugawa Shogunate. At least it have Hideyoshi Invasion on Korea Feat. And battle of Sekigahara. More feat for Japan to put up a fight.

I found some thread the OP made. OP pit Modern France vs Modern Russia. Obvious Russia will stomp them. Literally. Although it was several weeks old. It already gives me an idea who I am replying to. But this is Japan 1587 vs Spain (Competing Conqueror on the Western Hemisphere.)

And still trying to research on India on your thread.


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## Barioth (May 29, 2012)

Yagura said:


> What tires me is your lack of reading comprehension and your inability to form an argument. And I'm a girl, sweetheart



Again you tire yourself. Being girl doesn't matter to me my boy/child. And being a girl; an even more typical girl respond.



Yagura said:


> And here we go again.  What makes you think Japan was reliant on foreign sea trade for food or anything at all in the first place? This is like, the third time we've been through this.



The moment Japan starting to have Christianity in it. Do you honestly believe Japan was forever Traditional in Warring States? Some time after Portuguese arrive Japan was split into two. East and West. East was Traditional. West was going Modern. You didn't know that? Again you should know better. Shame on you. The only time Japan was self-reliant is during Tokugawa Shogunate (Pro-East) after declaring Shogun 1600s. Hideyoshi(Pro-West and unify Japan 1590). 



Yagura said:


> No. I asked you to show me how Japan was reliant on foreign trade.  You have yet to do this. Best work on that comprehension, bro.



Again East vs West. And which time you choose? 1587. For a person Pro-Japan in this debate, you don't know your history. Stop asking favor from me to prove; Be a strong girl and pull your own weight to disprove me.

And to make you happy and be a good girl; England defeat Spanish Armada(google it) in 1588. Before that event Spanish was consider a Superpower during the Exploring to the Western Hemisphere. Now go and learn.

And to finish it. GG Japan.


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## passerby A (May 29, 2012)

Well the Japanese in fact were going to starve, because you magically switched Japan's location with Britain, making it's climate completely changed, thus killed it's agriculture.
Just joking.


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## Barioth (May 29, 2012)

passerby A said:


> Well the Japanese in fact were going to starve, because you magically switched Japan's location with Britain, making it's climate completely changed, thus killed it's agriculture.
> Just joking.



No your on to something. Spain are familiar in England Geography. Something I am disappointing that OP overlooked. And remember Japan in 1582 -1587 only control the Northern part of Japan(Kyoto)specifically. Southern part is still in chaos.


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## passerby A (May 29, 2012)

Anar G said:


> No your on to something. Spain are familiar in England Geography. Something I am disappointing that OP overlooked. And remember Japan in 1582 -1587 only control the Northern part of Japan(Kyoto)specifically. Southern part is still in chaos.



Maybe 1592 Japan is a better choice? The year they invaded Korea?
I also kinda want to see the "magically switched place" England vs Korea, and China if it helped Korea as when it's against Japan.


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## Barioth (May 29, 2012)

passerby A said:


> Maybe 1592 Japan is a better choice? The year they invaded Korea?
> I also kinda want to see the "magically switched place" England vs Korea, and China if it helped Korea as when it's against Japan.



Yep definitely 1592 or Sekigahara. Something I have been telling OP. 

For the England vs Korea and China. England although Superpower might have trouble. Depend on the location and intention. If England(as Japan) intent to invade Korea(there first problem will be Geography.) 

China and Korea are arguably one of the better Navy in East Asia that can rival England.  The reason is because of arguably Mongolia Empire that give way to Joseon and Ming Dynasty. 

The commander I know the spectacular feat from Joseon is Kim Chung-seon. That guy defected Japan to Korea. So this dudes know Japan inside out. In this scenario England.

Ming Dynasty is Li Rusong potential of a Warlord. Its ashamed that he was kill by Mongolian Tribe.


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## Masa (May 29, 2012)

I doubt Spain could take a unified Japan just based on population alone. Edo period Japan had 30 million people, that's more than 4 times the size of the Spanish population at the time and WAY more than any invading force the Spanish could ever muster. If they are bloodlusted, like is standard with OBD fights, the Spanish invading forces run out of bullets and cannon balls before they even make a dent in the Japanese population.

A warring states Japan would be different as you would probably end up with one side allying with the Spanish rather than fighting them. I guess that would be a semi-win for the Spanish.

Also, to the guy that said Spain would starve Japan...You're an idiot.


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## Barioth (May 29, 2012)

I am tire of beating the horse to death. The OP put 1587 Japan. Sengoku not Edo. Japan wasn't unified at the time. The OP puts Japan in Britain location. And only in a Counter position. The OP never makes an specification on climate. And this is English Channel not Sea of Japan. So no Kamikaze. I also assume Japan is in England Climate. Growing rice in England isn't a good area. Good luck feeding 30million without the proper food source. You have better chance in warmer European area like Italy/Spain(surprise?).

Spain in those time were trading. They are familiar with the English Channel. If they want to conquer Japan. Why bother attacking when just wait and control the English Channel; let them starve. Also the Spain can gather more intelligent through Trading.

Again I told OP put Japan in Unify, 1592, or Sekigahara not the 1587. And maybe Japan has a fighting chance. GTFO Masa and go read history/geography/wardocumentary. Japan 1587 has no Marine War feat.

And before participating War debates always question When/Where/Why to determine the Base of that country. Strategy > Tactics(How/Who/What). The 1587 Japan isn't likely to win. 

Another thing about Tactics and Strategy.

Today/Tomorrow Tactics > Yesterday Tactic. However Strategy will always comes first if you want to win in the long run.


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## Blue (May 29, 2012)

Yagura said:


> err, could you elaborate on what your referring to?





China tried to do to Japan what Spain tried to do to England.

And the exact same thing happened both times, they got raped by a storm. The English called the Kamikaze the "Protestant Wind".

Without a storm on their sides, the (fire)armed and armored Spanish would ride roughshod over the Japanese.

Population isn't really the issue here, a couple thousand Spanish subjugated the entire Aztec Empire, and you're looking at the same tech disparity here.


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## Barioth (May 29, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> China tried to do to Japan what Spain tried to do to England.
> 
> And the exact same thing happened both times, they got raped by a storm.
> 
> ...



Thank you. And for pointing the Kamikaze out. Kamikaze never occur until Mongol second invasion attempt.


Another reason Spain was having trouble with Aztec was they aren't familiar in the Western Hemisphere yet.  Aztec are not an empire to underestimate.

This is another link: Spain siege Aztec empire feat.



In the end small pox/ lack of fresh water/ supplies contributes the downfall Aztec.


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## Kind of a big deal (May 29, 2012)

No outside interference? Spain wins easily. Spain at this point in history was fighting many battles and conflicts at the same time, all over the world. Most of the American guys know full well they were spending large amounts of effort and resources in the Americas. 
But most significantly they were heavily invested in the religious conflicts _all_ over Europe at that time (both in gold and in manpower), including being right in the middle of the 80 years war against the Dutch provinces and supporting one of the sides in a civil war in France. Then there's the Anglo-Spanish wars that had just begun in 1585 as well, 2 years prior to the OP's year. People keep mentioning wars against England due to Japan's location, but it wasn't even one of Spain's bigger projects at the time.

If we can disregard all of those, and Spain can use their full resources on a single, less developed opponent, relatively close to home, think about what that would imply.


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## Yagura (May 29, 2012)

*@ Anar G*; If your done making a fool out of yourself, I'm still waiting on that proof to back up your claim. As that barely decipherable paragraph of yours doesn't prove shit, other than English probably isn't your first language.  


*EDIT:* And lol at you going through my profile to dig up something against me. Shows what kind of debater you are.


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## passerby A (May 30, 2012)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> China tried to do to Japan what Spain tried to do to England.
> 
> And the exact same thing happened both times, they got raped by a storm. The English called the Kamikaze the "Protestant Wind".
> 
> ...



Actually the Yuan Dynasty was more like a part of Mongol empire, rather than China.
And there are sources (credibility unknown) saying that the reason Mongol fleets were destroyed by the storm so easily, was because the Mongols use Chinese and Korean workers to make ships for them. Due to the hatred, and knowing that those horseback riders know nothing about sailing, they intentionally made the fleet all flatboats, which was meant to sail in rivers, rather than sharp-built ones that can sail in the ocean.

The Aztecs use obsidian weapons, Japan 1587 had arguably the best steel forging skill in the world, and more than 10,000 arquebusiers. 
Not saying Japan was superior to Spain, but sure not that far behind as Aztec was.


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## passerby A (May 30, 2012)

And now I see it, the West maybe wasn't all that superior (battle-wize) to the East until 18th century.
It's year 1633, while Ming was in crisis and collapsed just 11 years later. Yet the Dutch still failed against them.


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## Kind of a big deal (May 30, 2012)

Looking at the full stats on that page, it seems the Dutch fleet consisted of 20 ships, plus 50 allied pirate ships. Chinese pirate ships are barely a cut above fishermen's ships.

Against:

50 warships, 100 small fire ships. Yeah that's a totally fair fight. If that's your evidence for Eastern technology and warfare being on par with western, it's not good enough.



> Japan 1587 had arguably the best steel forging skill in the world



Lol based on what? Katana's portrayal in popular fiction? Toledo steel > anything manufactured in Japan.


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## passerby A (May 30, 2012)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Looking at the full stats on that page, it seems the Dutch fleet consisted of 20 ships, plus 50 allied pirate ships. Chinese pirate ships are barely a cut above fishermen's ships.
> 
> Against:
> 
> ...



You may want to check out the casualties and losses.
Only 3 Ming navy ships damaged, no sank, while the Dutch East India Company(VOC) had 4 galleons (obviously Dutch ones, neither of us think Chinese pirates had a galleon, right?) sank, 1 unable to sail ever again, and 50 ships (Dutch or pirate ones) damaged.

If Chinese navy technology was so inferior to Dutch, even it's a 2 to 1 ratio of force, the outcome wouldn't be like this.

Eastern technology was weaker, I never deny that, but not by that huge margin like the Aztecs were, and can be made up by their number advantage, making the fighting capacity roughly equal.

In other word, you said it's unequal, but well, the easterners just had more ships and soldiers, that's a fact. Year 1669, while VOC at its prime, it had 40 warships (), as Chinese easily reached hundreds, even a thousand.


Actually when I searched deeper, I found that Ming dynasty never lost one naval battle against Europeans. Only because sheer numbers you could say, but they still won, you can't deny it.

Well, that's why I said arguably, as I know nothing about Toledo steel, so no comment about that.
My point is only to point out that you can't compare Japan to Aztec, that's hilarious. Even if Japan was the worst steel forger in the world, it's still miles stronger than Aztec, as the later couldn't even smelt iron.


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## passerby A (May 30, 2012)

Well, after I chilled out a little, I found that my argument doesn't have any significant factors against the topic: Spain vs Japan.

Because naval-wize, Japan was raped by both China and Korea during the exact era (1597), so meh.


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## Masa (May 30, 2012)

Anar G said:


> I am tire of beating the horse to death. The OP put 1587 Japan. Sengoku not Edo. Japan wasn't unified at the time. The OP puts Japan in Britain location. And only in a Counter position. The OP never makes an specification on climate. And this is English Channel not Sea of Japan. So no Kamikaze. I also assume Japan is in England Climate. Growing rice in England isn't a good area. Good luck feeding 30million without the proper food source. You have better chance in warmer European area like Italy/Spain(surprise?).



Japan's climate is colder in many areas and they still manage to farm rice...Also, I doubt the OP meant to take away Japan's source of food in the fight as if he did, the Japanese would lose even if they didn't have an opponent, which would be stupid. It is only logical to discuss Japan while giving it the same production capacities as it would have in Asia.


> Spain in those time were trading. They are familiar with the English Channel. If they want to conquer Japan. Why bother attacking when just wait and control the English Channel; let them starve. Also the Spain can gather more intelligent through Trading.



Japan wasn't reliant on trade in its entire history until the 20th century. They wont starve.


> Again I told OP put Japan in Unify, 1592, or Sekigahara not the 1587. And maybe Japan has a fighting chance. GTFO Masa and go read history/geography/wardocumentary. Japan 1587 has no Marine War feat.



Actually, Japan was unified for the most part by 1587 under Hideyoshi and Ieyasu, who were tentative allies at the time. There were only a few factions that were opposed to him and they weren't exactly major.

Maybe you should go read your history...

Japan doesn't need Naval war fleets because the Spanish actually have to invade on land eventually.



> And before participating War debates always question When/Where/Why to determine the Base of that country. Strategy > Tactics(How/Who/What).


You should follow your own advice before doling it out to others.



> The 1587 Japan isn't likely to win.



I'd say it has a pretty decent chance considering Spain doesn't have nearly enough manpower to contain a blood lusted population of 30 million armed with guns and swords and farming tools (which in Japan are quite deadly).


> Another thing about Tactics and Strategy.
> 
> Today/Tomorrow Tactics > Yesterday Tactic. However Strategy will always comes first if you want to win in the long run.



That has nothing to do with the debate.


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## Blue (May 30, 2012)

> and farming tools (which in Japan are quite deadly).



fucking lol'd hard.


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## passerby A (May 30, 2012)

Masa said:


> That has nothing to do with the debate.



Maybe he thought the Spanish had better strategy than the Japanese.
On sea yeah, on land no.


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## RWB (May 30, 2012)

As for the trading thing, I can't find anything that makes it clear Japan would be completely reliant on trade, but until the "Sakoku" they did rely rather heavily on trade anyways.

Particularly from India and China.


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## Barioth (May 30, 2012)

Ok let me start fresh so none of you guys are victim of Argumentum of Ignorantum due to me and OP.

Base Japan circa 1587: Hideyoshi was the most influential Daimyou that sieze Kyoto powers at that time. Tokugawa was force to be his Vassal due to Hideyoshi taking his sister and mother as hostage. The southern Japan was not really in order until 1590. Many great Daimyou are gone. Unless they are revive.

Base Spain circa 1587: The Spain still a Superpower and are fighting all over the world. Most important with the Dutch(Portuguese see Eighty Years War) to declare independent from Phillips II of Spain. Many Conquistador already dead too at the time. Unless they are revive.

Tactic wise: Spain has more influence in trade than Japan; More influence outside of Japan. Spain has better navy wise. If you want to include Nobunaga vs Mori in Osaka at Kizu River. Then by all means. 

Strategy wise: Because due to OP, Strategic movement are restricted alot. And Japan can make a fake Unify of 1590. The Spain can gather Japan Catholics. Unless OP revives the dead Daimyou and Conquistador.

Trading Japan: Can barely get any trade. Only use Portuguese (look Nanban Trade) as mediate. India and China control the most West and East Trade. Spice rings a bell? However Japan still have Trading with Portuguese until the Sakoku establish around 1633-38

Trading Spain: Well see Exploration Age.

Geography: OPs fault. Switching Japan with England Geography wise but not Climate or Oceanography. 

In the end my point still stand. Spain is winning. If OP puts Imjin War or Sekigahara. Japan has a better chance. I have been repeating this so many times. In so many different angle.

But if we are allow to show Feat. Then by all means include the Dead Daimyou and Conqistador. 

Here are some of the links Japan: Leave out 1588s and beyond, due to, again, OP. Onin War is optional because they spark the Sengoku Period.



Here are some of the links Spain: Mostly will be Spain conquering America until 1587. Mostly the infamous Fall of Tenochitlan of Aztecs Empire. Eighty Years War is take or leave.




So before you guys say anything about my argument. I am the only does give a damn and fail to attempt(if you truly want/believe/proven Japan 1587 to win) argue.

You can find some info about Weapons they use in those time but not alot.


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## Yagura (May 30, 2012)

Masa said:


> A warring states Japan would be different as you would probably end up with one side allying with the Spanish rather than fighting them. I guess that would be a semi-win for the Spanish.



This is definitely a possibility, as its reasonable to assume that some Japanese warlords would opt to side with the Spanish rather than risk being crushed completely after witnessing the futility of  a direct military conflict. But arguably, this probably hinges on how persecutive the Spanish will be to non Christian Japanese and the xenophobic/anti-Christian sentiment of the warlords.


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## Masa (May 31, 2012)

Anar G said:


> Ok let me start fresh so none of you guys are victim of Argumentum of Ignorantum due to me and OP.
> 
> Base Japan circa 1587: Hideyoshi was the most influential Daimyou that sieze Kyoto powers at that time. Tokugawa was force to be his Vassal due to Hideyoshi taking his sister and mother as hostage. The southern Japan was not really in order until 1590. Many great Daimyou are gone. Unless they are revive.
> 
> ...



I hope English isn't your first language...

Again, its pointless to discuss a Japan that can't produce food because at that point, the Spanish aren't even a factor in the battle. Its like saying a random blind and deaf dude with no arms and no legs could solo 1587 Japan because it will just die off if he waits long enough. So the only logical conclusion is to give Japan food production capabilities for the sake of discussion.

In 1587 Japan was NOT reliant on trade. There was nothing they could not survive without that they got from trade. All food (except luxury items like spices) and most weapons were produced in Japan at the time.

Your argument fails to address how Spain will conquer 30 million bloodlusted Japanese people. The Aztec references aren't nearly adequate because the Japanese A) have guns and swords (and KNK's beloved farming tools), B) have at least some resistance to smallpox, and C) have nearly double the population of the Aztecs.


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## Banhammer (May 31, 2012)

Whomever controls Portugal wins.


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## Solrac (May 31, 2012)

Lol @ people comparing Japan to the Aztec empire.


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## Barioth (Jun 8, 2012)

Masa said:


> I hope English isn't your first language...



What is your implication? In my Biography, I am minority. Consequently this might affect your debate in the near future. Depending on the person pull the Race Card or Ignorantum Card.



Masa said:


> Again, its pointless to discuss a Japan that can't produce food because at that point, the Spanish aren't even a factor in the battle. Its like saying a random blind and deaf dude with no arms and no legs could solo 1587 Japan because it will just die off if he waits long enough. So the only logical conclusion is to give Japan food production capabilities for the sake of discussion.



Nope. Being blind, dumb, and useless doesn't deter your army going to lose the War. You just have a bad base start. Seriously throughout History it has been proven even worst state can overcome with great Strategy.

It just in this case Japan in my stance isn't winning. The fact Spain has more influence than Japan. I am more generous than you percieve.



Masa said:


> In 1587 Japan was NOT reliant on trade. There was nothing they could not survive without that they got from trade. All food (except luxury items like spices) and most weapons were produced in Japan at the time.



*Sigh* Kyushu Campaign 1587. Southern part of Japan that hasn't been unified. Not only that this where my point Catholic Japanese are mention. Many merchant and priest was here. Aren't you suspicious of Hideyoshi campaign on this? A man of Pro-West who is coming to a closure of Uniting of Japan. 

There three thing opposes him: 
1)Southern Kyushu has the resource to challenge Hideyoshi. 
2)Catholic on the rises. 
3)Preparation for Korea Campaign

Clearly he either prevent it or get the trade before the opposing Daimyo in the South has control over it.  In order to expand to Korea he needs the material to expand his dominant. And most of these comes from the Ship trader in Southern Kyushu. Japan lacks the material to create Sea going Navy. 







> Hideyoshi also decided to bring the southern island of Kyushu under his authority. This island was home to the primary trading ports through which goods from China, Korea, Portugal and other nations made their way into Japan. Many of the daimyo of Kyushu had converted to Christianity under the influence of Portuguese traders and Jesuit missionaries; some had been converted by force, and Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines destroyed.





Masa said:


> Your argument fails to address how Spain will conquer 30 million bloodlusted Japanese people. The Aztec references aren't nearly adequate because the Japanese A) have guns and swords (and KNK's beloved farming tools), B) have at least some resistance to smallpox, and C) have nearly double the population of the Aztecs.



This is where the whole Strategy > Tactics argument comes in.  Even though I shouldn't bother in the first place. But why does some people still assume I am comparing Japan to Aztecs? 

I am just stating Spanish Conquistador leveled a Civilization. That is all. So this is on you. 

I will still counter these argument though.

Counter your Point A: 
Tactics: Gun and Sword of Japan > Aztecs Spear, Mace, and blowguns.
Strategy: Melee and Range of Japan = Aztecs melee and range.
Difficulty Reasoning: Even if Japan was up to medieval weaponry the Range and Melee weapons still applies.


Counter your Point B:
Tactics: Japan met Outsiders before > Aztecs never met anyone.
Strategy: Spain travel to more place thus been expose to more plague than Japan.
Difficulty Reasoning: Can't really say because there wasn't alot of documentary of Japan being kill by plague other than Emperor and Hideyoshi himself.


Counter your point C:
Tactics: Japan army population > Aztecs army population
Strategy: Conquistador army > Aztecs army population.
Difficulty Reasoning: It isn't that I compare Aztecs population to Japan. That is your doing. 

My point is Conquistador were outnumber and still prevail. Has Japan try to invade with a little population that were outnumber and still prevail in the invasion? If so please state if I am missing.

In the end GG Japan until Battle of Sekigahara or decline of Spain in the 17th century.

Inb4Locked.


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## Mider T (Jun 8, 2012)

Spanish Armada takes this, surprisingly not by a landslide though.  Japan is at it's pre-industrial peak right now.  The book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" has a really good excerpt about Japan at this time 


> Firearms reached Japan in 1543, when two Portuguese adventurers armed with harquebuses (primitive guns) arrived on a Chinese cargo ship.  The Japanese were so impressed by the new weapon that they commenced indigenous gun production, greatly improved gun technology, and by 1600 owned more and better guns than any other country in the world.



It's hard to say is Japan is isolationist at this time though, if it's magically swapped spots with England.  It may have a stronger Navy because of this.


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## Barioth (Jun 8, 2012)

Mider T said:


> Spanish Armada takes this, surprisingly not by a landslide though.  Japan is at it's pre-industrial peak right now.  The book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" has a really good excerpt about Japan at this time



I read and watch a Guns,Germs, and Steel. Was it Jared Diamond? Although I disagree some point due to poilitics, religion, and so forth may play alot of factor.



Mider T said:


> It's hard to say is Japan is isolationist at this time though, if it's magically swapped spots with England.  It may have a stronger Navy because of this.



No. Japan just switch spot in England. Basically England land turn into Japan but other as Ocean, Climate are still England. Because the OP doesn't want Spain to go south of Africa, East of Madagascar and Sri Lanka, India along the Philippines and China to get to Japan.

Surprisingly, I told that if it makes the Pro-Japan better. England defeats the Spanish Armada.


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## Masa (Jun 9, 2012)

Anar G said:


> What is your implication? In my Biography, I am minority. Consequently this might affect your debate in the near future. Depending on the person pull the Race Card or Ignorantum Card.



I was implying that your use of English is quite poor and makes it difficult to understand exactly what you are trying to say, but that I guess there is nothing that can be done about if you are not a native speaker...If you are a native speaker and typing like you type, shame on you.



> Nope. Being blind, dumb, and useless doesn't deter your army going to lose the War. You just have a bad base start. Seriously throughout History it has been proven even worst state can overcome with great Strategy.
> 
> It just in this case Japan in my stance isn't winning. The fact Spain has more influence than Japan. I am more generous than you percieve.



I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to argue that Spain would beat a country that would die on its own anyways? 

In that case 16th century Spain can also beat the current United States Military if the current United States Military starts off inside an active volcano. Do you see my point? The only reason Spain will win this is because Japan would die off anyways if you take away their food. The OP did not intend to take away all of Japan's food with his relocation. 

Furthermore who knows how food production would be affected? The Atlantic is quite a bit warmer and less volatile than the part of the Pacific where Japan is located. Food production might actually increase! Due to lack of information, and lack of intent by the OP, we can only give Japan the resources it would have if it had the same climate it has now.




> *Sigh* Kyushu Campaign 1587. Southern part of Japan that hasn't been unified. Not only that this where my point Catholic Japanese are mention. Many merchant and priest was here. Aren't you suspicious of Hideyoshi campaign on this? A man of Pro-West who is coming to a closure of Uniting of Japan.



Sorry, I couldn't understand this paragraph. Please rewrite it so that it is intelligible. 



> There three thing opposes him:
> 1)Southern Kyushu has the resource to challenge Hideyoshi.
> 2)Catholic on the rises.
> 3)Preparation for Korea Campaign



1) Southern Kyushu was pretty much a non factor and will not be an influence in this fight. Not to mention they are already bloodlusted against the Spanish for this fight, so they will probably ally with Hideyoshi anyways.

2) Japanese Catholics had very little power and are also a non-factor in this fight because they are also bloodlusted against the Spanish.

3) Japan in this fight is no where near Korea, so Hideyoshi wont be using resources to prepare an invasion of it. So this is also a non-factor.



> Clearly he either prevent it or get the trade before the opposing Daimyo in the South has control over it.  In order to expand to Korea he needs the material to expand his dominant. And most of these comes from the Ship trader in Southern Kyushu. Japan lacks the material to create Sea going Navy.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Confrontation'



Hideyoshi wont be preparing for an invasion of Korea in this fight because Korea is on the other side of the planet. He also wont need sea going ships because he doesn't have to actually invade Spain in this fight, he just has to avoid being conquered.



> This is where the whole Strategy > Tactics argument comes in.  Even though I shouldn't bother in the first place. But why does some people still assume I am comparing Japan to Aztecs?



Because you keep bringing up the Aztecs. If you know they aren't relevant to this fight, don't bring them up.



> I am just stating Spanish Conquistador leveled a Civilization. That is all. So this is on you.



The only reason to bring something like that up would be to make a comparison with Japan. If you aren't trying to make a comparison, don't bring it up.



> I will still counter these argument though.
> 
> Counter your Point A:
> Tactics: Gun and Sword of Japan > Aztecs Spear, Mace, and blowguns.
> ...



Japan and the Aztecs are obviously NOT equal in strategy. So this point, which didn't really counter anything anyways, is moot.

Also, I think you are mistaking the word tactics and strategy for something else, I'm not sure what, but the phrases you are putting after "Tactics:" and "Strategy:" have nothing to do with tactics and strategy. This goes for all of the below "counters" as well (even though they aren't actually countering anything) and I have no idea what you mean by difficulty reasoning unless you are admitting that you are having difficulty using reason to make your argument, which I would agree with.



> Counter your Point B:
> Tactics: Japan met Outsiders before > Aztecs never met anyone.
> Strategy: Spain travel to more place thus been expose to more plague than Japan.
> Difficulty Reasoning: Can't really say because there wasn't alot of documentary of Japan being kill by plague other than Emperor and Hideyoshi himself.


Are you kidding me? Small pox CAME from Asia and was present in Japan probably before it was in Europe. If anything, smallpox will hurt the Spanish more than the Japanese.



> Counter your point C:
> Tactics: Japan army population > Aztecs army population
> Strategy: Conquistador army > Aztecs army population.
> Difficulty Reasoning: It isn't that I compare Aztecs population to Japan. That is your doing.



That's not a counter. You brought up the Aztecs, if you weren't trying to make a comparison, don't bring them up.



> My point is Conquistador were outnumber and still prevail. Has Japan try to invade with a little population that were outnumber and still prevail in the invasion? If so please state if I am missing.



Japan doesn't need to invade, they only need to not be conquered as stated by the OP. Also, the Conquistadors won because they had the advantages of guns and small pox. Both advantages that are nonexistant in this battle. 


> In the end GG Japan until Battle of Sekigahara or decline of Spain in the 17th century.
> 
> Inb4Locked.



No


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## Orochibuto (Jun 9, 2012)

Pecola said:


> I still want Japan to win this match, but again I'm not too sure of the fullest capabilities of either country during this period.
> 
> Seeing any Japanese general hand Hernan Cortes his ass would be hilarious to me.



Lol, Hernan Cortes 

He would get insta pwned. The only reason the guy accomplished anything was because he was taken as a god by the Aztec emperor and gather a lot of conquered places to his cause.

His "army" the one that actually came with him from Cuba was like 100 people.


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## Tengu (Jun 9, 2012)

Spain had better ships in that time, and more guns, but Japan should outnumber them like 8 to 1 or something, sadly i give it to Spain with high difficulty.


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## Solrac (Jun 9, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Lol, Hernan Cortes
> 
> He would get insta pwned. The only reason the guy accomplished anything was because he was taken as a god by the Aztec emperor and gather a lot of conquered places to his cause.
> 
> His "army" the one that actually came with him from Cuba was like 100 people.



So are you with me?


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## Orochibuto (Jun 9, 2012)

Pecola said:


> So are you with me?



Yes, I am.


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## Solrac (Jun 9, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Yes, I am.



Good.

So for starters, what are some Japanese generals from around the Exploration Ages do you think would buttrape Cortes?


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## Barioth (Jun 9, 2012)

Pecola said:


> Good.
> 
> So for starters, what are some Japanese generals from around the Exploration Ages do you think would buttrape Cortes?



The ones that are already dead. The Mori, Hojo, Shingen, Oda, Kenshin. They are already dead. Just like Cortes himself is dead. The one still alive is Tachibana, Shimazu, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa.


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## Solrac (Jun 9, 2012)

Anar G said:


> The ones that are already dead. The Mori, Hojo, Shingen, Oda, Kenshin. They are already dead. Just like Cortes himself is dead. The one still alive is Tachibana, Shimazu, Toyotomi, and Tokugawa.



what do you mean lol? Dead or alive, we're talking about the distant past.


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## Barioth (Jun 9, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Masa said:


> I was implying that your use of English is quite poor and makes it difficult to understand exactly what you are trying to say, but that I guess there is nothing that can be done about if you are not a native speaker...If you are a native speaker and typing like you type, shame on you.



Yes shame on the person assumingly everyone that types English must be proficient.



Masa said:


> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to argue that Spain would beat a country that would die on its own anyways?
> 
> In that case 16th century Spain can also beat the current United States Military if the current United States Military starts off inside an active volcano. Do you see my point? The only reason Spain will win this is because Japan would die off anyways if you take away their food. The OP did not intend to take away all of Japan's food with his relocation.



Strawman.



Masa said:


> Furthermore who knows how food production would be affected? The Atlantic is quite a bit warmer and less volatile than the part of the Pacific where Japan is located. Food production might actually increase! Due to lack of information, and lack of intent by the OP, we can only give Japan the resources it would have if it had the same climate it has now.



Gulf-Stream look it up. 



Masa said:


> Sorry, I couldn't understand this paragraph. Please rewrite it so that it is intelligible consistence.



Fixed.



Masa said:


> 1) Southern Kyushu was pretty much a non factor and will not be an influence in this fight. Not to mention they are already bloodlusted against the Spanish for this fight, so they will probably ally with Hideyoshi anyways.



Sure go ahead leave Kyushu Port to Spain to support my argument.



Masa said:


> 2) Japanese Catholics had very little power and are also a non-factor in this fight because they are also blood lust against the Spanish.




Sure go ahead and ignore specific Japan. So I can use Japanese Catholic on my side.



Masa said:


> 3) Japan in this fight is no where near Korea, so Hideyoshi wont be using resources to prepare an invasion of it. So this is also a non-factor.




Sure go ahead and ignore the purpose of Kyushu Campaign. So I can use Shimazu Clan for my side.



Masa said:


> Hideyoshi wont be preparing for an invasion of Korea in this fight because Korea is on the other side of the planet. He also wont need sea going ships because he doesn't have to actually invade Spain in this fight, he just has to avoid being conquered.




Sure go ahead. The major port need for upcoming Korea campaign can be use for my side.



Masa said:


> Because you keep bringing up the Aztecs. If you know they aren't relevant to this fight, don't bring them up.




I can bring it up anytime. Invasion feat is invasion feat. 



Masa said:


> The only reason to bring something like that up would be to make a comparison with Japan. If you aren't trying to make a comparison, don't bring it up.




Invasion feat is Invasion feat.



Masa said:


> Japan and the Aztecs are obviously NOT equal in strategy. So this point, which didn't really counter anything anyways, is moot.



My previous post hint your Strawman.



Masa said:


> Also, I think you are mistaking the word tactics and strategy for something else, I'm not sure what, but the phrases you are putting after "Tactics:" and "Strategy:" have nothing to do with tactics and strategy. This goes for all of the below "counters" as well (even though they aren't actually countering anything) and I have no idea what you mean by difficulty reasoning unless you are admitting that you are having difficulty using reason to make your argument, which I would agree with.



Tactic is the method. Strategy is the plan of the bigger picture.

Tactic: Japan Guns > Aztecs Bow
Strategy: Ranged Weapon = Ranged Weapon to get what is need to be done.



Masa said:


> Are you kidding me? Small pox  Blackdeath CAME from Asia and was present in Japan probably before it was in Europe. If anything,
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



I am just being a good samaritan as usual.



Masa said:


> That's not a counter. You brought up the Aztecs, if you weren't trying to make a comparison, don't bring them up.



Invasion feat is an invasion feat.



Masa said:


> Japan doesn't need to invade, they only need to not be conquered as stated by the OP. Also, the Conquistadors won because they had the advantages of guns and small pox. Both advantages that are nonexistant in this battle.



Sure go ahead. All majority Sea Strategic location is now belong to Spain.



Masa said:


> No



Inb4lock. Your refute is good to say the least.


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## Barioth (Jun 9, 2012)

Pecola said:


> what do you mean lol? Dead or alive, we're talking about the distant past.



I don't know. 1587 they were dead except Hideyoshi and Tokugawa.


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## Masa (Jun 9, 2012)

Anar G said:


> Yes shame on the person assumingly everyone that types English must be proficient.


Yes, every native speaker who types English should be proficient at it. If you are not a native speaker of the language, I can forgive you. I am not trying to nit pick here and am being quite lenient on the grammar, but some of the stuff you type just makes no sense at all.



> Strawman.



No, its an analogy and the same argument you are trying to put up saying that Japan wont be able to grow food.




> Gulf-Stream look it up.



And this shows that the Japanese wont be able to grow food, how?




> Fixed.


If you are going to attempt to correct someone's wording to try and suit your argument like is so often done on the forums here, you should at least correct it with something that actually fits in the sentence grammatically. Putting Consistence where you put it makes the sentence intelligible and I can't even guess what point you were trying to make by putting it there.



> Sure go ahead leave Kyushu Port to Spain to support my argument.


No, due to the rules of the OBD (bloodlust on), you don't get Kyushu (and they are pretty much a non factor anyways).





> Sure go ahead and ignore specific Japan. So I can use Japanese Catholic on my side.


No, due to the rules of the OBD (bloodlust on), you don't get the Japanese Catholics (and they are pretty much a non factor anyways).







> Sure go ahead and ignore the purpose of Kyushu Campaign. So I can use Shimazu Clan for my side.



No, due to the rules of the OBD (bloodlust on), you don't get the Shimazu Clan and you wouldn't get them anyways because they were aligned with Hideyoshi by 1587 anyways.



> Sure go ahead. The major port need for upcoming Korea campaign can be use for my side.


I'm not sure what you mean by that.




> I can bring it up anytime. Invasion feat is invasion feat.



Its an invasion feat that is not relevant to the discussion because the Japanese>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Aztecs. 

If you bring it up don't complain about people saying that you are comparing the Aztecs to the Japanese because that is EXACTLY what you are doing.





> Invasion feat is Invasion feat.



Its an invasion feat that is not relevant to the discussion because the Japanese>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Aztecs. 

If you bring it up don't complain about people saying that you are comparing the Aztecs to the Japanese because that is EXACTLY what you are doing.




> My previous post hint your Strawman.



No, its not a strawman. If you bring the Aztecs up as a feat, it can only be to make a comparison with the Japanese. If you bring the Aztecs up without comparing them to the Japanese, it is a meaningless statement and has no place in this argument. 

So I guess you could say either 

A) you are making a comparison between the Japanese and Aztecs and I am not fighting a strawman.

B) you are not making a comparison between the two, but are making statements that are irrelevant to your argument and useless in this thread (and I am attacking a strawman, although it is only because you aren't presenting your argument properly). 

Pick one




> Tactic is the method. Strategy is the plan of the bigger picture.
> 
> Tactic: Japan Guns > Aztecs Bow
> Strategy: Ranged Weapon = Ranged Weapon to get what is need to be done.



Japanese Guns and Aztec Bows are not tactics, they are weapons.

Ranged weapon = Ranged weapon is not a strategy and I don't even know what you mean by that statement.



> I am just being a good samaritan as usual.



Smallpox AND blackdeath BOTH came from Asia, but thanks for trying to be a good samaritan even though you failed miserably.




> Invasion feat is an invasion feat.





Its an invasion feat that is not relevant to the discussion because the Japanese>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Aztecs. 

If you bring it up don't complain about people saying that you are comparing the Aztecs to the Japanese because that is EXACTLY what you are doing.





> Sure go ahead. All majority Sea Strategic location is now belong to Spain.



Sure, why not. They still can't conquer Japan because the conquering takes place on land.




> Inb4lock. Your refute is good to say the least.



I know, thank you. Yours, however, needs some work to say the least.


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## willyvereb (Jun 10, 2012)

VM by Anar G, 05-28-2012 11:11 PM:


> Hi willyvereb can you lock this thread if there isn't any argument  proving Japan beats Spain otherwise. Because I am basically the only one  throwing feat atm.


slowpoke.jpg


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