# Current Zoro vs Katakuri



## AnimePhanatic (Feb 18, 2022)

Match takes place on Onigashima rooftop

Distance: 100m apart

No prep or knowledge beforehand

Bloodlusted

I personally think Katakuri takes this. 
Does Zoro have an answer for Future Sight? 
Can he attack at Snake Man levels of speed?
Current Zoro is nice and all with the AdCoc, but is it gonna be of any help against Katakuri? He's not the tank-all-attacks type of fighter after all like King and actually uses his brains.
Can Zoro break out of a Mochi hold that Snake Man couldn't break out of? Cause Katakuri can literally just see a future where Zoro is using his technique, then use Awakening to just intercept him. Imagine tryna use Lion Song, and right as he's about to dash, the ground turns to Mochi, holds him in place, with multiple Block Mochi opening up in the air to attack him. Or a trident to the face.
Or just using Mochi to restrain his hands.
And unlike King, there's nothing to figure out that'd clinch the battle in Zoro's favor.
I'm also aware that Zoro has good reactivity, but that doesn't really mean much when Katakuri sees him reacting and reacts to his reaction, does it?
As well as the fact that we haven't seen all of Current Zoro, but that doesn't change the fact that only his AP got buffed, does it? And defense via AdCoC barrier.

So yeah, for those who'd say Zoro wins or stomps or anything via the King fight(someone who fights a different kinda way from Katakuri, who I also don't see how he's beating Katakuri, even before losing to Zoro) or Rooftop feats or whatnot(a fight with Kaido who almost never dodged, if he did at all), how does Zoro get past Katakuri's skill set?

So yeah, who wins?

PS: Also think Katakuri wins against Law, Kid, any supernova not named Luffy currently(unless we get showings from those who haven't done anything yet), and he'd do better than Big Mom against Law and Kid. Not saying he's stronger than her, but they don't have the skillset to counter his skillset effectively.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 10


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## Conxc (Feb 18, 2022)

Extremely rare Katakuri wank sighting

Reactions: Funny 9


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## AnimePhanatic (Feb 18, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Extremely rare Katakuri wank sighting


Not wank
It's just OP101
Skillset matters, that's why there're matchups, based on skillsets
Enel was stronger than Luffy(even Oda said he'd be 500milli in the Grandline) but lost cause he didn't have a counter to Luffy's rubber skillset
Just cause character A can do something effectively against character B doesn't mean character C can, especially if character A is more well-rounded than character C.
In this case, Luffy, Katakuri and Zoro.
You could go back to Skypiea where Zoro couldn't do anything to Enel yet Luffy was turning Enel to his punching bag. Again, skillset and matchups.

So instead of calling it wank, why not gimme logical reasons why Current Zoro who got a boost in AP and not CoO or speed that would be needed to fight Katakuri can bypass his skillset and defeat him?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ShadoLord (Feb 18, 2022)

Zoro bested Kaido with Ashura who bested Luffy who, in turn, bested your boi Kat.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 18, 2022)

Kata wins high diff due to matchup advantage. Overwhelming attack power doesnt do much to a guy who dodges everything

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 7


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## Conxc (Feb 18, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Not wank
> It's just OP101
> Skillset matters, that's why there're matchups, based on skillsets
> Enel was stronger than Luffy(even Oda said he'd be 500milli in the Grandline) but lost cause he didn't have a counter to Luffy's rubber skillset
> ...


I agree that matchups matter. I feel like you're mind is in the right place with that, and that matchups are definitely ignored in most of these threads. With that said...

The only categories that Katakuri isn't completely outclassed in compared to Zoro are CoO and *movement *speed. FS is not absolute, as we literally saw vs Luffy. He was able to keep composed when he was belittling Luffy and keep his FS in tact. Once Luffy started getting stronger in the fight Katakuri began losing composure and Luffy landed more and more hits. Unlike WCI Luffy, Zoro will be overwhelming Katakuri head to head from the start and Zoro won't need to land even a fraction of the hits that Luffy needed to land to put Kata down. Zoro's Haki pre AdCoC was already strong enough to hurt Kaido. Katakuri's CoA was arguably stronger than Luffy's which is why he could match him hit for hit. He's not doing that against Zoro.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Feb 18, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Kata wins high diff due to matchup advantage. Overwhelming attack power doesnt do much to a guy who dodges everything


So did you make your account strictly to type ridiculous things and downplay every single thing about Zoro orrr...

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## Kroczilla (Feb 18, 2022)

Conxc said:


> So did you make your account strictly to type ridiculous things and downplay every single thing about Zoro orrr...


Pot meets kettle  

OT. I think Zoro takes this though with significant difficulty. Tagging Katakuri is going to be a chore in itself. Doing it while avoiding attacks from all angles via peerless donuts makes said chore pretty hellish. Fact is he's going to get hit a lot and take a lot of punishment. Luckily for him, he's all about taking punishment and if he gets his timing right should be able to land a few hits which would more than turn the tide in his favour.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 18, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Once Luffy started getting stronger in the fight Katakuri began losing composure and Luffy landed more and more hits.


That's not what happened at all. Katakuri only lost his composure when his snack time was interrupted. Luffy wasn't able to land hits otherwise until he developed FS himself.


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## Conxc (Feb 18, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> That's not what happened at all. Katakuri only lost his composure when his snack time was interrupted. Luffy wasn't able to land hits otherwise *until he developed FS himself.*


I.e. getting stronger. Luffy was tagging Kats even after he regained composure, before he fully developed FS. The point is, Kata's FS will weaken as he loses composure. Facing a stronger opponent will do that. Even without that, we've seen Luffy get tagged a bunch of times post FS. It is not the end all be all.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ShadoLord (Feb 18, 2022)

FS is obsolete anyways with Kaido perfectly matching up to FS Luffy without any issues. It's only useful when you have the physical aspect on that top-tier level as well which Kat is solely lacking here considering the Luffy that defeated him lost to 1 hit from base Kaido. RT Zoro could even handle Hybrid Kaido, albeit for a short time. Current advCoC Ashura Zoro is something else entirely.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 18, 2022)

Conxc said:


> So did you make your account strictly to type ridiculous things and downplay every single thing about Zoro orrr...


No im portraying him properly, i literally daid he loses due to matchup disadvantage, i think zoro overall is around katakuri level, but katakuris fighting style is tailor made for zoro

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Dunno (Feb 18, 2022)

Zoro is way faster and stronger than Katakuri. He blitzes and one-shots.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 10 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Gabzy (Feb 18, 2022)

Zoro wins with high diff

Reactions: Agree 3


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Dunno said:


> Zoro is way faster and stronger than Katakuri. He blitzes and one-shots.


He is much slower, though he is stronger

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Germa 66 (Feb 19, 2022)

Katakuri drowns him in mochi

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Great Potato (Feb 19, 2022)

Zoro demonstrates what actual diced mochi looks like.

Reactions: Funny 6 | Winner 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I agree that matchups matter. I feel like you're mind is in the right place with that, and that matchups are definitely ignored in most of these threads. With that said...
> 
> The only categories that Katakuri isn't completely outclassed in compared to Zoro are CoO and *movement *speed. FS is not absolute, as we literally saw vs Luffy. He was able to keep composed when he was belittling Luffy and keep his FS in tact. Once Luffy started getting stronger in the fight Katakuri began losing composure and Luffy landed more and more hits. Unlike WCI Luffy, Zoro will be overwhelming Katakuri head to head from the start and Zoro won't need to land even a fraction of the hits that Luffy needed to land to put Kata down. Zoro's Haki pre AdCoC was already strong enough to hurt Kaido. Katakuri's CoA was arguably stronger than Luffy's which is why he could match him hit for hit. He's not doing that against Zoro.


Katakuri + FS is completely different from Luffy + FS though

The time taken for for Luffy to move his body out of the way or guard or block, Katakuri would have body morphed and avoided the attack multiple times over. See Luffy's Black Mamba vs Katakuri. Doing body dodges was letting him get hit, but the instant he morphed his body, nothing hit him again, IIRC.

Katakuri wasn't getting hit by Luffy till he lost his cool from his "perfect image" being broken. After that, he only ever got hit by Luffy when Luffy developed FS, the necessary skillset needed to counter Katakuri. And Luffy felt he still needed extreme speed against Katakuri, hence, Snake Man. Luffy didn't "win" cause he got a boost in AP, he won cause he got a boost in speed and reaction related stuff.

Katakuri was matching Luffy hit for hit because he saw Luffy as an inferior, yet freer version of himself. Man couldn't go 10 secs without saying "whatever you can do, I can do better". He's not stupid, he'd avoid Zoro's attacks if they're dangerous to him

Zoro isn't equiped to deal with Katakuri's FS + body morph + Awakening combo, larger AP doesn't just take it in this case

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Katakuri + FS is completely different from Luffy + FS though
> 
> The time taken for for Luffy to move his body out of the way or guard or block, Katakuri would have body morphed and avoided the attack multiple times over. See Luffy's Black Mamba vs Katakuri. Doing body dodges was letting him get hit, but the instant he morphed his body, nothing hit him again, IIRC.
> 
> ...


FS is not the end all be all. We have seen this too many times. Fast enough attacking speed can counter it as we’ve seen with Kaido speed blitzing Luffy, who’s FS was at least as strong as Kata’s. You don’t need FS to beat Katakuri. Zoro has extremely fast attacking speed with his finishers, and considering that he beat King in 3 hits, who is much more durable than Kats, he likely only needs to hit one or two, but no more than what it took to put King down. Zoro straight overwhelms Kata at this point.


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## AnimePhanatic (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> FS is not the end all be all. We have seen this too many times. Fast enough attacking speed can counter it as we’ve seen with Kaido speed blitzing Luffy, who’s FS was at least as strong as Kata’s. You don’t need FS to beat Katakuri. Zoro has extremely fast attacking speed with his finishers, and considering that he beat King in 3 hits, who is much more durable than Kats, he likely only needs to hit one or two, but no more than what it took to put King down. Zoro straight overwhelms Kata at this point.


Ain't saying FS is, but Katakuri with FS is more effective than Luffy with FS... Body morph vs Body dodge, the Black Mamba fight sequence literally showed the difference, plus environmental advantage that Awakening grants. Zoro can't fly, can he?

And Is there a speed feat that scales the speed of Zoro's finishers to Kaido? 
Again, does Zoro have Snake Man levels of speed/attack speed? Cause that's the bare minimum he'd need to hit Katakuri.
Kaido hitting Luffy either means Kaido is that fast or Luffy is still not as experienced in using it in battle as Katakuri, or both.
 Could also be the body dodging thing, cause he's been fast enough to apply Haki barriers in spite of being blitzed.

But it's cool if you think Zoro wins
Let's agree to disagree


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## Germa 66 (Feb 19, 2022)

*reading this thread*

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Corax (Feb 19, 2022)

Zoro mid at worst.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Ludi (Feb 19, 2022)

Current zoro obviously beats WCI Katakuri


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## Amol (Feb 19, 2022)

I don't think Zoro is losing to any YFM anymore other than Blackbeard's maybe if they are already EoS level strong.

Beckman too if he has really that close to Shanks.

Overall speaking I am always going to give Zoro win over any YFM level character. 

So Zoro wins with very high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (Feb 19, 2022)

Zoro mid diffs.

Reactions: Like 4


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## o0Shinthi0o (Feb 19, 2022)

Zoro wins obviously

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheMoffinMan (Feb 19, 2022)

Zoro > King ~ Katakuri >= pre CoC Zoro

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I.e. getting stronger.


You argued that it'd apply to Zoro in a very general sense even though it was the specific skillset that allowed Luffy to keep up. Hence AP's argument about how much match ups matter. Hitting harder ≠ hitting faster.


Conxc said:


> Luffy was tagging Kats even after he regained composure, before he fully developed FS. The point is, Kata's FS will weaken as he loses composure. Facing a stronger opponent will do that. Even without that, we've seen Luffy get tagged a bunch of times post FS. It is not the end all be all.


Any time Luffy either tagged or matched Kat it was attributed towards his FS. Again, Kat never lost composure outside of that brief period where his snack time was interrupted. These are facts. I challenge you to find a panel that shows otherwise if you can.

Luffy doesn't have his FS constantly active unlike Katakuri. Even then I'm pretty sure he was only tagged against either a team or an opponent tiers above himself. Katakuri was capable of avoiding bound man's speed, and snake man's speed even after Luffy developed FS.  Feel it's a bit optimistic to assume that Zoro could simply blitz a character who could more than keep up with a combination of snake man and FS. Not sure if people are truly comprehending the level of speed that'd require before hastily applying it to Zoro because a Yonko was capable of it.


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## The crazy hacker (Feb 19, 2022)

Why do people wank previous arc antagonists? Katakuri time is over, just like Doflamingo, Rob Lucci,  Crocodile , Arlong. Etc. Katakuri is like Sanji level now.

Zoro mid diffs.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> You argued that it'd apply to Zoro in a very general sense even though it was the specific skillset that allowed Luffy to keep up. Hence AP's argument about how much match ups matter. Hitting harder ≠ hitting faster.


Let’s get this straight: Luffy *needed *FS to counter because Katakuri was better in every way on top of being able to read his movements. It’s the opposite here. Zoro outclasses Katakuri in almost every single department. Katakuri is the one fighting an uphill battle unlike bs Luffy, unless you count the fact that the MC will always win. We’ve seen Luffy get blitzed and still hit despite FS which already shows that it can be exploited. Zoro has insanely fast attacking speed with his finishers. He will blitz Kats if he could blitz Kaido with all his bones broken in a near death state. Let’s be serious. 


Chip Skylark said:


> Any time Luffy either tagged or matched Kat it was attributed towards his FS. Again, Kat never lost composure outside of that brief period where his snack time was interrupted. These are facts. I challenge you to find a panel that shows otherwise if you can.


Zoro’s finisher attacking speed >>> WCI base Luffy attacking with G3 and base punches and kicks. This shouldn’t even need to be said.


Chip Skylark said:


> Luffy doesn't have his FS constantly active unlike Katakuri. Even then I'm pretty sure he was only tagged against either a team or an opponent tiers above himself. Katakuri was capable of avoiding bound man's speed, and snake man's speed even after Luffy developed FS.  Feel it's a bit optimistic to assume that Zoro could simply blitz a character who could more than keep up with a combination of snake man and FS. Not sure if people are truly comprehending the level of speed that'd require before hastily applying it to Zoro because a Yonko was capable of it.


Zoro has one of the highest attacking speeds in the manga with his finishers. You don’t need FS to beat Katakuri. WCI Luffy needed FS to beat Katakuri because he started the fight weaker in general. Zoro outclasses Katakuri here and that’s all that matters. Matchups do matter, but FS is not enough to keep Katakuri from becoming diced Mochi. Be real here. I know it’s your thing to downplay the character and all. Kinda unfortunate.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Let’s get this straight: Luffy *needed *FS to counter because Katakuri was better in every way on top of being able to read his movements. It’s the opposite here. Zoro outclasses Katakuri in almost every single department. Katakuri is the one fighting an uphill battle unlike bs Luffy, unless you count the fact that the MC will always win. We’ve seen Luffy get blitzed and still hit despite FS which already shows that it can be exploited. Zoro has insanely fast attacking speed with his finishers. He will blitz Kats if he could blitz Kaido with all his bones broken in a near death state. Let’s be serious.
> 
> Zoro’s finisher attacking speed >>> WCI base Luffy attacking with G3 and base punches and kicks. This shouldn’t even need to be said.
> 
> Zoro has one of the highest attacking speeds in the manga with his finishers. You don’t need FS to beat Katakuri. WCI Luffy needed FS to beat Katakuri because he started the fight weaker in general. Zoro outclasses Katakuri here and that’s all that matters. Matchups do matter, but FS is not enough to keep Katakuri from becoming diced Mochi. Be real here. I know it’s your thing to downplay the character and all. Kinda unfortunate.


Zoro is only superior to katakuri in attack power(which he is vastly superior in) everything else katakuri has. Speed CoO, versatility, mobility, endurance(fought 12 hours) experience, durability is questionable, since kata tool multiple g4 attacks and zoro got merked by a nerfed killer. Kata is just stronger in every way bar attack power

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Let’s get this straight: Luffy *needed *FS to counter because Katakuri was better in every way on top of being able to read his movements. It’s the opposite here. Zoro outclasses Katakuri in almost every single department. Katakuri is the one fighting an uphill battle unlike bs Luffy, unless you count the fact that the MC will always win. We’ve seen Luffy get blitzed and still hit despite FS which already shows that it can be exploited. Zoro has insanely fast attacking speed with his finishers. He will blitz Kats if he could blitz Kaido with all his bones broken in a near death state. Let’s be serious.


That's not true. Was clearly demonstrated that Luffy always possessed the raw power to overwhelm Katakuri with G4. He needed FS because he couldn't land hits otherwise. I even showed you this before, but as soon as Luffy learned FS he could suddenly match the same attacks that Katakuri once used to directly overwhelm him.

Kaido blitzing Luffy doesn't mean that Zoro can. Zoro and Kaido are not on the same level. Crazy that I need to point this out.

Luffy "blitzed" Kaido with his opening "Red Roc" while Kaido was attacking him, and then Luffy struggled to fully avoid "Thunder Bagua" immediately afterwards. Luffy landing "Red Roc" obviously doesn't mean that Luffy attacked faster than Thunder Bagua. Stands to reason that Kaido's speed is only that incredible with specific techniques.


Conxc said:


> Zoro’s finisher attacking speed >>> WCI base Luffy attacking with G3 and base punches and kicks. This shouldn’t even need to be said.
> 
> Zoro has one of the highest attacking speeds in the manga with his finishers. You don’t need FS to beat Katakuri. WCI Luffy needed FS to beat Katakuri because he started the fight weaker in general. Zoro outclasses Katakuri here and that’s all that matters. Matchups do matter, but FS is not enough to keep Katakuri from becoming diced Mochi. Be real here. I know it’s your thing to downplay the character and all. Kinda unfortunate.


Eh, ironic that I'm being accused of downplay when your argument is attempting to use Katakuri's worst feat to define his full capabilities. I just pointed out how Katakuri was capable of consistently avoiding Snake Man attacks after Luffy developed FS, and for some reason your response was to act like you were pushed to pointing out how Zoro's best speed feats are superior to WCI base Luffy? Come on.

Sure, Luffy was able to match Katakuri with G3 and a base kick literally once. With FS, mind you. Though its pretty egregious to argue as if that level is Kat's standard despite just being reminded of how he was consistently performing much better when he went all out. Gives off the impression that you probably don't have an actual argument for how Zoro is meant to blitz a character capable of out speeding FS Luffy's Snake Man.

Feel it's definitely more downplay to act like Katakuri would just be some sitting duck when confronted with Zoro's finishers after we saw how it took Luffy's fastest gear coupled with FS to consistently tag him at his best.


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

Nothing Katakuri can do against Zoro's raw power. Maybe he can use Awakening to keep himself in the game longer, but it will just prolong the inevitable. His attacks won't be enough if they couldn't do anything to Luffy and all Zoro needs is an opening. His defenses will get shredded by CoC slashes and his CoA is insufficient. Zoro is significantly superior in all aspects but CoO.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Nothing Katakuri can do against Zoro's raw power. Maybe he can use Awakening to keep himself in the game longer, but it will just prolong the inevitable. His attacks won't be enough if they couldn't do anything to Luffy and all Zoro needs is an opening. His defenses will get shredded by CoC slashes and his CoA is insufficient. Zoro is significantly superior in all aspects but CoO.


He can dodge it, which is literally his specialty


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 19, 2022)

Only Luffy can beat katakuri because of fs

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> He can dodge it, which is literally his specialty


He can't dodge indefinitely and Zoro is much faster.


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## AnimePhanatic (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Zoro has insanely fast attacking speed with his finishers. He will blitz Kats if he could blitz Kaido with all his bones broken in a near death state. Let’s be serious.


How did he blitz Kaido when Kaido, apparently parried two of his attacks or something? Isn't a blitz supposed to be moving or attacking faster than a character can react? Like Kizaru blitzing Luffy in Marineford, or Zoro-Sanji blitzing King-Queen in that double spread. Wouldn't Kaido parrying two of Zoro's attacks suggest that even in that short period of time, with that short distance, and Zoro having 9 arms, he could react to Zoro? Hence, Zoro NOT blitzing Kaido? Saying Zoro blitzed Kaido debunks the "Kaido parried two attacks and got overpowered" arguments everywhere, and using that argument implies that Kaido didn't get blitzed. Another example of a blitz is round 1 G4 vs Doffy. Also Luffy's final attack on Enel
Unless I'm missing the meaning of a blitz here



Conxc said:


> Zoro’s finisher attacking speed >>> WCI base Luffy attacking with G3 and base punches and kicks. This shouldn’t even need to be said.


Is his attacking speed > Snake Man's? Cause WCI base Luffy attacking with G3 and base punches and kicks stated he needed Snake Man's speed to defeat Katakuri AFTER having learned FS

Again, I'm not saying Zoro doesn't have better attack power than Katakuri, but what does he have in his skillset that lets him bypass Katakuri's skillset?(which includes body morphing, which is better than body dodging like I showed with the Black Mamba fight sequence)


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> That's not true. Was clearly demonstrated that Luffy always possessed the raw power to overwhelm Katakuri with G4. He needed FS because he couldn't land hits otherwise. I even showed you this before, but as soon as Luffy learned FS he could suddenly match the same attacks that Katakuri once used to directly overwhelm him.


And that’s not true. I don’t really care to (kinda can’t) shit this nonsense down in depth with scans since I’m on mobile ATM, but Kata was still matching SM Luffy blow for blow, even still hurting him through his Haki when they clashed. Not being able to tag him because of lack of future sight still falls under the category of being outclassed. Besides plot, WCI Luffy, who couldn’t even beat cracker alone, was not going to beat Kats without FS. Even with it he needed heavy plot assistance.


Chip Skylark said:


> Kaido blitzing Luffy doesn't mean that Zoro can. Zoro and Kaido are not on the same level. Crazy that I need to point this out.


Did I say that? Because I don’t remember saying that. I said that Luffy has been blitzed and tagged by lesser opponents than even himself post FS showing that it isn’t absolute. 


Chip Skylark said:


> Luffy "blitzed" Kaido with his opening "Red Roc" while Kaido was attacking him, and then Luffy struggled to fully avoid "Thunder Bagua" immediately afterwards. Luffy landing "Red Roc" obviously doesn't mean that Luffy attacked faster than Thunder Bagua. Stands to reason that Kaido's speed is only that incredible with specific techniques.


This doesn’t disprove what I said, at all. Kaido is still a Yonkou with top tier reactions.


Chip Skylark said:


> Eh, ironic that I'm being accused of downplay when your argument is attempting to use Katakuri's worst feat to define his full capabilities. I just pointed out how Katakuri was capable of consistently avoiding Snake Man attacks after Luffy developed FS, and for some reason your response was to act like you were pushed to pointing out how Zoro's best speed feats are superior to WCI base Luffy? Come on.


You’re missing the point. All Zoro needs is an opening to exploit and land one of his finishers. Kats being tagged by base WCI Luffy shows that that opening can be made. It’s as simple as that. Unlike Luffy he doesn’t need to land a bunch of hits to put Kats down. 


Chip Skylark said:


> Sure, Luffy was able to match Katakuri with G3 and a base kick literally once. With FS, mind you. Though its pretty egregious to argue as if that level is Kat's standard despite just being reminded of how he was consistently performing much better when he went all out. Gives off the impression that you probably don't have an actual argument for how Zoro is meant to blitz a character capable of out speeding FS Luffy's Snake Man.


Doesn’t matter if it was only once. That’s all Zoro needs and *that’s *the point.


Chip Skylark said:


> Feel it's definitely more downplay to act like Katakuri would just be some sitting duck when confronted with Zoro's finishers after we saw how it took Luffy's fastest gear coupled with FS to consistently tag him at his best.


See above. It’s downplay to even entertain this matchup at this point. Zoro is well above Katakuri right now as he’s been shown to be well above King.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> He can't dodge indefinitely and Zoro is much faster.


Zoro is slower and zoro cant attack indefinitely, katakuri can dodge in a continuous fight for 12 hours, zoro throws out 5-8 ACoC attacks and is out of stamina.

This goes immensly in katakuris favor

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## AnimePhanatic (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> He can't dodge indefinitely and Zoro is much faster.


Speed feats that suggest Zoro is faster than Katakuri who dodged Snake Man and blitzed Luffy even while in Snake Man and after having learnt FS

I thought feats matter


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Zoro is slower and zoro cant attack indefinitely, *katakuri can dodge in a continuous fight for 12 hours*


Against WCI base Luffy.


DarkRasengan said:


> *, zoro throws out 5-8 ACoC attacks and is out of stamina.*
> 
> This goes immensly in katakuris favor


Nothing indicates that.


AnimePhanatic said:


> Speed feats that suggest Zoro is faster than Katakuri who dodged Snake Man and blitzed Luffy even while in Snake Man and after having learnt FS
> 
> I thought feats matter


Katakuri got tagged by base Luffy and couldn't hit him with Mogura if you want to stick to feats. 

RT Zoro parried and blitzed Kaido with Asura.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Against WCI base Luffy.
> 
> Nothing indicates that.
> 
> ...


So what if it was WCI base luffy, he was dodging snakeman as well who is>>>>>zoro in speed.

His last fight indicated that enma drained his haki soo much that he passed out in less than 10 attacks, so yes literally his last fight indicated that.

That happened once, and he continually dodge snakeman luffy, who again is >>>>zoro in speed

Rt zoro didnt parry anyone, and it was against a guy who doesnt dodge and likes to tank things. Katakuri is not like that at all, he likes to dodge and has futuresight to anticipate what zoros gonna do


Asura is literally his only chance to tag katakuri, and even that is a big if

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

I thought "FS untouchable" days were over. Looks like I was wrong.


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> And that’s not true. I don’t really care to (kinda can’t) shit this nonsense down in depth with scans since I’m on mobile ATM, but Kata was still matching SM Luffy blow for blow, even still hurting him through his Haki when they clashed. Not being able to tag him because of lack of future sight still falls under the category of being outclassed. Besides plot, WCI Luffy, who couldn’t even beat cracker alone, was not going to beat Kats without FS. Even with it he needed heavy plot assistance.


Snake Man emphasizes speed but loses some of the raw power of Bound Man. Luffy was overwhelming Katakuri in strength with Bound Man. I'm sure you remember that.

Cracker was another instance of a struggle purely because of the specific match up. Luffy clearly had the strength advantage with Bound Man by far.


Conxc said:


> Did I say that? Because I don’t remember saying that. I said that Luffy has been blitzed and tagged by lesser opponents than even himself post FS showing that it isn’t absolute.


When?


Conxc said:


> This doesn’t disprove what I said, at all. Kaido is still a Yonkou with top tier reactions.


It clearly shows that you don't need enough speed to blitz FS to tag Kaido even if he does have top tier reactions. 


Conxc said:


> You’re missing the point. All Zoro needs is an opening to exploit and land one of his finishers. Kats being tagged by base WCI Luffy shows that that opening can be made. It’s as simple as that. Unlike Luffy he doesn’t need to land a bunch of hits to put Kats down.
> 
> Doesn’t matter if it was only once. That’s all Zoro needs and *that’s *the point.
> 
> See above. It’s downplay to even entertain this matchup at this point. Zoro is well above Katakuri right now as he’s been shown to be well above King.


Kinda hard to exploit a small opening with your strongest attack. Which is why Zoro couldn't just one-shot King at the first opportunity even when he didn't have the flame on his back. It's not really that simple.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> I thought "FS untouchable" days were over. Looks like I was wrong.


Untouchable to people without the speed feats to hit them. Theres a reason why its an advanced haki and soo few people have it


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## AnimePhanatic (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Katakuri got tagged by base Luffy and couldn't hit him with Mogura if you want to stick to feats.
> 
> RT Zoro parried and blitzed Kaido with Asura.


Same Katakuri was dodging Snake Man attacks, as well as a Snake Man gatling (Black Mamba) and did so completely when he body morphed.

Sticking to feats, Snake Man already debunks what you say. Plus Luffy himself said he HAD TO GO FASTER after unlocking FS, after tagging Katakuri in base.

Again, I'm not saying Zoro doesn't have better attack power than Katakuri, but giving Zoro speed feats on the level of Snake Man's cause he supposedly "blitzed" someone who does nothing but tank every and all attacks is plain wrong.

Once again, Katakuri can body morph, Black Mamba shows that body morphing is faster and better than body dodging. He literally did both in the same sequence and was getting hit while body dodging but didn't get hit while body morphing. IT WAS LITERALLY SHOWN!!!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Strobacaxi (Feb 19, 2022)

Future sight isn't the end of all things

Kata loses, he can't put Zoro down and his haki will eventually weaken


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> and his haki will eventually weaken


Zoro's won't? His stamina lasts all of a few minutes with Enma. 

These arguments are wild.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Future sight isn't the end of all things
> 
> Kata loses, he can't put Zoro down and his haki will eventually weaken


He can put down zoro, nerfed killer put down zoro, and zoros haki will weaken much quicker than katakuris. 12 hours of using futuresight>>5 minutes of using enma


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Same Katakuri was dodging Snake Man attacks, as well as a Snake Man gatling (Black Mamba) and did so completely when he body morphed.
> 
> Sticking to feats, Snake Man already debunks what you say. Plus Luffy himself said he HAD TO GO FASTER after unlocking FS, after tagging Katakuri in base.
> 
> ...


How does Big Mom hit Katakuri?


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> How does Big Mom hit Katakuri?


Aoe attacks, or outlasting his stamina since admirals can fight for 10 days, big mom should be able to as well


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## Strobacaxi (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Zoro's won't? His stamina lasts all of a few minutes with Enma.
> 
> These arguments are wild.


He has already been tested and recognized by Enma. His stamina isn't sucked anymore


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## Kroczilla (Feb 19, 2022)

Okay... Now things are starting to get a bit retarded here. I don't fancy this reasoning of "Zoro > King therefore he > Katakuri". In terms of fighting style and ability, Katakuri clearly is a completely different kind of challenge than what King could offer. 

Also "He can't put Zoro down?!". Just to be clear I think Zoro wins, but that's just utter balderdash.


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Aoe attacks


Such as? Why wouldn't he dodge those? 


DarkRasengan said:


> or outlasting his stamina


Good, at least we can now agree on one way Zoro beats him. Unless you think WCI base Luffy is superior to Zoro in stamina of course.


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Snake Man emphasizes speed but loses some of the raw power of Bound Man. Luffy was overwhelming Katakuri in strength with Bound Man. I'm sure you remember that.


IIRC Bound man didn’t match Katakuri blow. He landed a couple of hits while Kata defended himself. Kata hurting Luffy through his CoA is a Haki diff, just like how when he clashed with G3 prior and hurt him.


Chip Skylark said:


> Cracker was another instance of a struggle purely because of the specific match up. Luffy clearly had the strength advantage with Bound Man by far.


Cracker’s Haki was at least on or with Luffy’a there. Considering that he was able to pierce Luffy’s G4 arm, you could argue it was even better.


Chip Skylark said:


> When?


Like I said, I’m on mobile. Unless you’re arguing that Luffy hasn’t been touched since the end of WCI, you can go and look for yourself. 


Chip Skylark said:


> It clearly shows that you don't need enough speed to blitz FS to tag Kaido even if he does have top tier reactions.


That still doesn’t prove tagging Kaido there to not be an amazing feat, especially given the condition he was in, but again, anything Zoro to you needs to be downplayed. I already know how debates with you go. Can’t hardly take this one seriously.


Chip Skylark said:


> Kinda hard to exploit a small opening with your strongest attack. Which is why Zoro couldn't just one-shot King at the first opportunity even when he didn't have the flame on his back. It's not really that simple.


He doesn’t need his strongest attack.


Chip Skylark said:


> Zoro's won't? His stamina lasts all of a few minutes with Enma.
> 
> These arguments are wild.


In the state that he was in. It should go without saying that if he’s fresh with his full stamina that he can keep AdCoC up for longer. But I’m sure you knew that, and I agreee, these arguments are wild, awfully obtuse, and sad.


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> How does Big Mom hit Katakuri?


So crazy how people try to refute Zoro's inability to consistently hit an incredibly fast FS user by bringing up a Yonko. 

Really not the checkmate y'all think it is.


Strobacaxi said:


> He has already been tested and recognized by Enma. His stamina isn't sucked anymore


Zoro said himself that he didn't have much time because of the fact that Enma was still draining him even after he unlocked AdvCoC during his fight with King.


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## AnimePhanatic (Feb 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Kata loses, he can't put Zoro down and *his haki will eventually weaken*


This, I can see happening

A better reason than Zoro suddenly being fast enough to blitz Katakuri and one-shot

So how do you think Zoro would handle those situations in my original post?

Losing his foothold via Awakening, he can't fly
Does his physical strength vastly surpass Snake Man who couldn't break out of a Mochi hold?
Zoro about to strike and Katakuri creates Mochi outta the air and holds his sword, meanwhile, then trident to Zoro's head or heart
Remember, they're bloodlusted.
Unless you feel a trident which tore a hole in Luffy wouldn't get past Zoro's defense
Of course, there's the Haki barrier that Zoro could use, but would he outlast Katakuri's Haki and stamina's reserves?

No one is understanding that there's more to battles than just "he beat/has feats against *insert character* who is stronger than *insert character B* so he'll beat character B"


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> So crazy how people try to refute Zoro's inability to consistently hit an incredibly fast FS user by bringing up a Yonko.
> 
> Really not the checkmate y'all think it is.


Not really. Simple applying the same logic. By that argument, King or Marco can't even touch Katakuri. 


Chip Skylark said:


> Zoro said himself that he didn't have much time because of the fact that Enma was still draining him even after he unlocked AdvCoC during his fight with King.


Yes, because Enma was acting up and he wasn't fresh. He won't be bothered by that. Not to mention even against King he had Asura up his sleeve + the medicine effect to worry about.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Such as? Why wouldn't he dodge those?
> 
> Good, at least we can now agree on one way Zoro beats him. Unless you think WCI base Luffy is superior to Zoro in stamina of course.


Her fire and lightning attacks.

They are harder to dodge because they are typically weaker but cover a wide area, hence the name "area of effect"

Wci luffy was superior to zoro in stamina if zoros using enma yes.

Zoro CANT outlast his stamina like me and other people have pointed out multiple times and i didnt agree with zoro beating him there at all.
Ill say jt again

Kata using futuresight in a fight for 12 hours>>>>>>>>>>>zoro running out if stamina after using enma for 5 minutes


Zoro isnt outlasting katakuri in a stamina fight, and its not even remotely close


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## Eustathios (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Wci luffy was superior to zoro in stamina if zoros using enma yes.


So according to this line of thought, beginning of Wano Luffy is stronger than current Zoro because he has FS, right?


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Not really. Simple applying the same logic. By that argument, King or Marco can't even touch Katakuri.
> 
> Yes, because Enma was acting up and he wasn't fresh. He won't be bothered by that. Not to mention even against King he had Asura up his sleeve + the medicine effect to worry about.


You dont even understand how enma works and the theme of zoro giving in to enma in order to win, so im not gonna bother anymore. Arguing against a brick wall i wont get anywhere



Eustathios said:


> So according to this line of thought, beginning of Wano Luffy is stronger than current Zoro because he has FS, right?


Kind of, they are comparable, zoro doesnt have the speed to hit him. Or stamina to outlast him. Its also a matchup advantage, luffy has tools that zoro cant deal with just like katakuri.
Zoro is actually is better equipped to deal with big mom or kaido. People who like to tank damage rather than dodge are going to have a harder time vs someone with overwhelming attack power but with lower speed


Snakeman futuresight luffy would defeat current zoro due to matchup advantage, but they are at a relatively comparable level(just defeated a YC1)

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> IIRC Bound man didn’t match Katakuri blow. He landed a couple of hits while Kata defended himself. Kata hurting Luffy through his CoA is a Haki diff, just like how when he clashed with G3 prior and hurt him.




G4 is a fusion of Luffy's rubber and haki. It's power exceeds what his haki is capable of by itself.


Conxc said:


> Cracker’s Haki was at least on or with Luffy’a there. Considering that he was able to pierce Luffy’s G4 arm, you could argue it was even better.



*Spoiler*: __ 








Same explanation as above. Luffy was clearly able to cleanly overpower Cracker directly.


Conxc said:


> Like I said, I’m on mobile. Unless you’re arguing that Luffy hasn’t been touched since the end of WCI, you can go and look for yourself.


You don't need to post a panel to tell what you're talking about. I can't find your example for you without you telling me what you're even talking about.


Conxc said:


> That still doesn’t prove tagging Kaido there to not be an amazing feat, especially given the condition he was in, but again, anything Zoro to you needs to be downplayed. I already know how debates with you go. Can’t hardly take this one seriously.


All I'm saying is that it doesn't prove that he can blitz a FS user... G2/G3 Luffy being able to tag Kaido under similar circumstances pretty clearly shows that. Complaining that I'm downplaying because you got an impression that my argument doesn't even imply isn't supporting your side whatsoever.


Conxc said:


> He doesn’t need his strongest attack.


Dude, you're the one arguing that Zoro needs his finishers. If you're now switching to the argument that Zoro can one-shot Katakuri with casual attacks that's pretty ridiculous.


Conxc said:


> In the state that he was in. It should go without saying that if he’s fresh with his full stamina that he can keep AdCoC up for longer. But I’m sure you knew that, and I agreee, these arguments are wild, awfully obtuse, and sad.


Nothing would suggest that he could keep up AdvCoC for so long that Katakuri's haki would weaken first. Katakuri fought for almost half a day. I'm sure that a fresh Zoro could go for longer than a few minutes, but it's a huge stretch to go from that to several hours.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Danyboy (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> but they are at a relatively comparable level(just defeated a YC1)


Hm, current fresh Zoro, who can defeat King w 3-4 hits while getting zero damage=Luffy w Pis extreme diffing Katakuri? Lol what?
Zoro midd difs, he does not even need to use ACOC all the time, just for couple of hits.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> Hm, current fresh Zoro, who can defeat King w 3-4 hits while getting zero damage=Luffy w Pis extreme diffing Katakuri? Lol what?
> Zoro midd difs, he does not even need to use ACOC all the time, just for couple of hits.


Zoro is not gonna tag him, so his couple of "hits "arent gonna be hits and are gonna drain his stamina because enma drains alot of stamina, and hes going to miss because of luffys futuresight and superior speed. Literally what ive been repeating myself saying all page.

Zoro loses extreme diff

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Danyboy (Feb 19, 2022)

Oh i see, its"You CaNt bEat FUtuRe SIght "thing again.
Why does Zoro even need to keep ACOC for full fight? Its not like Kuri is as durable as King. If Zoro can tag hybrid Kaido and King speed mod, he can Tag Katakuri too. 
Also add the Poll, cause recently, looks like people give it more meanings then usuall. Numbers will be fun

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Feb 19, 2022)

Yeah it's over now.

I held on all the way until the rooftop zoro but this can't fly anymore.

Katakuri gets bodied.

I mean Plotwise he can still win.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> Oh i see, its"You CaNt bEat FUtuRe SIght "thing again.
> Why does Zoro even need to keep ACOC for full fight? Its not like Kuri is as durable as King. If Zoro can tag hybrid Kaido and King speed mod, he can Tag Katakuri too.
> Also add the Poll, cause recently, looks like people give it more meanings then usuall. Numbers will be fun


Well you cant beat futuresight AND snakeman if youre significantly slower, the reason for the AGAIN is the argument still stands and you cant refute it.

Zoro doesnt need to keep ACoC up the full fight, but even non-ACoC enma attacks drain his stamina significantly. If you would read my previous posts, hybrid kaido wasnt trying to dodge, he likes to tank stuff. Katakuri specifically dodges. Zoro had to tank a hit to tag king in speed mode, and with futuresight luffy or katakuri will see that comming.

Zoro is simply not winning this fight because he doesnt have the speed to tag them or the stamina to outlast them. All he has is attack power which becomes redundant to people who dont try and tank everything


Hell the katakuri fight parallels the king fight

Katakuri has top tier speed/CoO
King has top tier defense

Luffy uses snakeman and develops futuresight to close that gap and win

Zoro uses enma and develops ACoC to close the gap and win


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> Oh i see, its"You CaNt bEat FUtuRe SIght "thing again.
> Why does Zoro even need to keep ACOC for full fight? Its not like Kuri is as durable as King. If Zoro can tag hybrid Kaido and King speed mod, he can Tag Katakuri too.
> Also add the Poll, cause recently, looks like people give it more meanings then usuall. Numbers will be fun


It's not just FS. It's Katakuri's speed in addition to FS. Katakuri was far from slow without FS.

Also Zoro used AdvCoC in the first place because he couldn't ration his haki with Enma. He was forced to let Enma absorb all of his haki.


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> G4 is a fusion of Luffy's rubber and haki. It's power exceeds what his haki is capable of by itself.


I can't say I see the point in this. You didn't show a panel of Boundman clashing fist to fist with Katakuri to disprove me saying that he didn't. He overpowered Katakuri's CoA defense, which is different than going fist to fist. Here is Katakuri going fist to fist with Snakeman and hurting Luffy though, which proves there was still a CoA diff by that point:


Chip Skylark said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, he beat him in a battle of strength there, but if you turn the page...You can see Cracker having no problem cutting right through Boundman. At the very least their Haki was on par at this point.


Chip Skylark said:


> You don't need to post a panel to tell what you're talking about. I can't find your example for you without you telling me what you're even talking about.



*Spoiler*: __ 










All of these against non-FS users. The fact that Kaido is a Yonkou is irrelevant. We are being led to believe that FS is iron clad vs characters that don't have it. I look forward to see the excuses you're gonna make here.


Chip Skylark said:


> All I'm saying is that it doesn't prove that he can blitz a FS user... *G2/G3 Luffy being able to tag Kaido under similar circumstances pretty clearly shows that.* Complaining that I'm downplaying because you got an impression that my argument doesn't even imply isn't supporting your side whatsoever.


Yes, and along the same vain of thought, base Luffy being able to tag Katakuri shows that you do not need FS and'or Snakeman speed to tag him. You're contradicting yourself.


Chip Skylark said:


> Dude, you're the one arguing that Zoro needs his finishers. If you're now switching to the argument that Zoro can one-shot Katakuri with casual attacks that's pretty ridiculous.


When I say "finishers" I'm talking about any of Zoro's blitzing attacks. That includes Shishi Sonson, Oni Giri, Rashomon, Asura, etc. Maybe that isn't the best word to refer to those attacks as, but that's what I call them. And I didn't say casual slashes would one-shot Katakuri. I said any slash would be lethal. Don't shape my words into what you want.


Chip Skylark said:


> Nothing would suggest that he could keep up AdvCoC for so long that Katakuri's haki would weaken first. Katakuri fought for almost half a day. I'm sure that a fresh Zoro could go for longer than a few minutes, but it's a huge stretch to go from that to several hours.


He doesn't need several hours. There's a number of ways that Katakuri could lose his focus seeing how he's fighting an uphill battle against a clearly superior opponent. He won't even need to land a fraction of the hits that Luffy needed to get the job done.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Danyboy (Feb 19, 2022)

So King>Katakuri right? They can't hurt each other but since Kings stamina> Katakuri ones, King wins. Good, good keep the same energy.

Reactions: Like 3


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> So King>Katakuri right? They can't hurt each other but since Kings stamina> Katakuri ones, King wins. Good, good keep the same energy.


Is kings stamina greater than katakuris? One fought for 12 hours and one was at his limit within an hour

But yes they are the same general level


Futuresight/awakening/CoC/mochi-logia powers

Durability/burst speed/fire powers/zoan powers

Same standing in a yonkou crew same portrayal, everything


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## JustSumGuy (Feb 19, 2022)

Current Zoro is stronger than Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I can't say I see the point in this. You didn't show a panel of Boundman clashing fist to fist with Katakuri to disprove me saying that he didn't. He overpowered Katakuri's CoA defense, which is different than going fist to fist. Here is Katakuri going fist to fist with Snakeman and hurting Luffy though, which proves there was still a CoA diff by that point:


CoA hardening doesn't somehow act differently when you're using it for defense. Which is why even Luffy himself thought back to when he went "fist to fist" with Katakuri when commenting about how tough Kat's "armament defense" was before. You can see that in the panel I posted.


Conxc said:


> Yes, he beat him in a battle of strength there, but if you turn the page...You can see Cracker having no problem cutting right through Boundman. At the very least their Haki was on par at this point.


My argument the entire time was simply that Luffy had the strength advantage. Not the haki advantage. Like I just said, Luffy didn't really need a haki advantage to overpower people with G4 since G4 is a fusion of his DF and haki. The panels I posted clearly show that.


Conxc said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The fact that Kaido is a Yonko is far from irrelevant. Literally nobody is arguing that it's  impossible to overcome FS without having FS yourself. What people are really arguing is that Zoro can't overcome FS without drastically superior speed, and you're not providing any concrete support for how Zoro has speed that's somehow drastically superior to even snake man.


Conxc said:


> Yes, and along the same vain of thought, base Luffy being able to tag Katakuri shows that you do not need FS and'or Snakeman speed to tag him. You're contradicting yourself.


Like I pointed out earlier, base Luffy was only ever able to tag Katakuri when he was using FS himself... I'm not contradicting myself. I've pointed this out before in this thread. Your perspective of the fight is just misremembered. The one time Luffy tagged Kat without FS was when Katakuri wasn't even using FS. I hope you're not trying to pass that off as support for your argument.


Conxc said:


> When I say "finishers" I'm talking about any of Zoro's blitzing attacks. That includes Shishi Sonson, Oni Giri, Rashomon, Asura, etc. Maybe that isn't the best word to refer to those attacks as, but that's what I call them. And I didn't say casual slashes would one-shot Katakuri. I said any slash would be lethal. Don't shape my words into what you want.
> 
> He doesn't need several hours. There's a number of ways that Katakuri could lose his focus seeing how he's fighting an uphill battle against a clearly superior opponent. He won't even need to land a fraction of the hits that Luffy needed to get the job done.


Those "blitz" attacks aren't really the type to take advantage of openings. Which is, again, why Zoro didn't use any named attacks when trying to counter King's speed. They're fast, but that's not the type of technique they are. You think anyone is going to drop their guard when confronted with Ashura? That Zoro can exploit a sudden opening by taking a pre-set stance? Doesn't make any sense.

Saying any slash would be "lethal" literally means that you think they'd be enough to kill Katakuri or cause a grave injury by definition. I'm not a mind reader. Can't get the meaning of your argument beyond your word choice, and you're not really articulating yourself well if that's not actually what you're trying to imply. Would be like me saying "I don't think Katakuri would kill Zoro, I'm saying that Katakuri would un-alive Zoro".

Katakuri has never lost focus outside of the interruption of his snack time upsetting him. Nothing about facing a strong opponent would suggest that Kat would be more liable to lose focus. If anything, Katakuri would be more focused against an extremely powerful opponent. That's kinda how things work. It's why Katakuri was more susceptible to attacks when he underestimated Luffy, but could still more than keep up when Luffy pulled out snake man. Luffy used more of his strength so Kat got more focused instead of pissing his pants.


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> CoA hardening doesn't somehow act differently when you're using it for defense. Which is why even Luffy himself thought back to when he went "fist to fist" with Katakuri when commenting about how tough Kat's "armament defense" was before. You can see that in the panel I posted.


The mechanics behind blocking and attacking are not the same. I posted a stronger version of Luffy being hurt through his CoA when clashing with Katakuri. You showed a lesser version breaking Katakuri's defense. When attacking, obviously you add force vs blocking where you wait for the force and brace yourself. 


Chip Skylark said:


> *My argument the entire time was simply that Luffy had the strength advantage*. Not the haki advantage. Like I just said, Luffy didn't really need a haki advantage to overpower people with G4 since G4 is a fusion of his DF and haki. The panels I posted clearly show that.


Well I'm talking about a Haki advantage. You're arguing with yourself on that part as that was never my point.

Depends on the opponent. Obviously he did need a Haki advantage as Katakuri was hurting him through his CoA in the head to head clashes. The scan I posted earlier clearly shows that.


Chip Skylark said:


> The fact that Kaido is a Yonko is far from irrelevant. Literally nobody is arguing that it's  impossible to overcome FS without having FS yourself. What people are really arguing is that Zoro can't overcome FS without drastically superior speed, and you're not providing any concrete support for how Zoro has speed that's somehow drastically superior to even snake man.


Your mistake here is implying that Snakeman speed is *needed *as the bare minimum to overcome FS when base Luffy tagged Katakuri. Base Luffy is not faster than Zoro, and Zoro's attacking speed is extremely fast. 


Chip Skylark said:


> *Like I pointed out earlier, base Luffy was only ever able to tag Katakuri when he was using FS himself...* I'm not contradicting myself. I've pointed this out before in this thread. Your perspective of the fight is just misremembered. The one time Luffy tagged Kat without FS was when Katakuri wasn't even using FS. I hope you're not trying to pass that off as support for your argument.


Bold faced lie. Luffy is not using FS here. And unlike you said, it isn't that Katakuri was not using FS here, which you can't prove. It's the fact that he lost his composure so it wasn't as efficient as it was previously. Luffy caught him slipping. FS can be exploited because the user has to be perfectly calm for it to work at max efficiency.


Chip Skylark said:


> Those "blitz" attacks* aren't really the type to take advantage of openings.* Which is, again, why Zoro didn't use any named attacks when trying to counter King's speed. They're fast, but that's not the type of technique they are. You think anyone is going to drop their guard when confronted with Ashura? That Zoro can exploit a sudden opening by taking a pre-set stance? Doesn't make any sense.


What?

You love making up your own versions of the manga, huh? This is crazy. The "preset stance" hasn't mattered. The attack that follows is so fast that the enemy still gets got. Not to mention that there was no preset stance on his attack against Apoo, like at all. It's amazing the lengths you'll go. He also tagged King multiple times with these attacks pre-AdCoC. The only problem was that he attacked him in dura form. There's no way around this without you continuing to bs. Most of Zoro's named attacks like Shishi Sonson blitz. Period.


Chip Skylark said:


> Saying any slash would be "lethal" literally means that you think they'd be enough to kill Katakuri *or cause a grave injury by definition.* I'm not a mind reader. Can't get the meaning of your argument beyond your word choice, and you're not really articulating yourself well if that's not actually what you're trying to imply. Would be like me saying "I don't think Katakuri would kill Zoro, I'm saying that Katakuri would un-alive Zoro".


I honestly don't see how this wording has you in this chokehold. You assumed that I meant any slash could kill. I clarified for you, then you still act confused while posting the only other meaning of the word "lethal" that I could still be referring to in this context.


Chip Skylark said:


> *Katakuri has never lost focus outside of the interruption of his snack time upsetting him.* Nothing about facing a strong opponent would suggest that Kat would be more liable to lose focus. If anything, Katakuri would be more focused against an extremely powerful opponent. That's kinda how things work. It's why Katakuri was more susceptible to attacks when he underestimated Luffy, but could still more than keep up when Luffy pulled out snake man. Luffy used more of his strength so Kat got more focused instead of pissing his pants.


Any proof of the bold? Because he was losing composure once he started to see that Luffy was developing his own FS. Reasonably, as a tough fight goes on and guys start to get weaker and weaker, stamina and composure are exhausted. Zoro is starting this fight clear cut ahead of Katakuri. Zoro can take a ton of punishment while counterattacking and dealing a lot himself. He can easily wear Katakuri down. If you're betting against Zoro here in a battle of attrition, even with Enma draining him with this much of a Haki/AP advantage then idk what to tell you. Luffy vs Katakuri lasted so long because Luffy started the fight well below Katakuri and had to climb to be around his level. Again, Zoro is already definitively stronger here. He's got the AP and attacking speed to hurt and blitz Kaido in Hybrid even pre-AdCoC. Get real.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Oda Report (Feb 19, 2022)

Zoro stomps.

King > kata 

And adcoc was too much for King even after all those attacks Zoro eat from King.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Zoro stomps.
> 
> King > kata
> 
> And adcoc was too much for King even after all those attacks Zoro eat from King.


ATP can't take guys like Chip and DR seriously. Anything to downplay Zoro. This is a gag matchup at this point and I like Katakuri, but current Zoro was portrayed to be well above typical FM level.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> ATP can't take guys like Chip and DR seriously. Anything to downplay Zoro. This is a gag matchup at this point and I like Katakuri, but current Zoro was portrayed to be well above typical FM level.


*Fanatics that are obsessed with zoro cant concede when they are proven wrong by feats and portrayal, so they go in denial. Its a fair matchup of two people of similar standing and portrayal yc1 of a yonkou crew, and one has a matchup advantage over the other**

A gag match would be zoro vs oven

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Oda Report (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> *Fanatics that are obsessed with zoro cant concede when they are proven wrong by feats and portrayal, so they go in denial. Its a fair matchup of two people of similar standing and portrayal yc1 of a yonkou crew, and one has a matchup advantage over the other**
> 
> A gag match would be zoro vs oven



Sure.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Sure.


Nice response

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oda Report (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Nice response



Likewise.


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

Conxc said:


> The mechanics behind blocking and attacking are not the same. I posted a stronger version of Luffy being hurt through his CoA when clashing with Katakuri. You showed a lesser version breaking Katakuri's defense. When attacking, obviously you add force vs blocking where you wait for the force and brace yourself.


But the mechanics behind haki are exactly the same, which is the point. It was clearly stated that Katakuri's CoA couldn't stand up to Bound Man, and when that was pointed out to us there was a flashback to when Luffy and Kat clashed previously even though he was defending in this instance. The difference between attacking and defending obviously didn't matter in this example. Haki is an energy source, and whether you're attacking or defending with hardening it's being used the same way. Kat's haki was not strong enough to defend against Bound Man. That's the entire point, and there's really no denying it within reason.



Conxc said:


> Well I'm talking about a Haki advantage. You're arguing with yourself on that part as that was never my point.


Bruh I was the one that brought up that argument in the first place. You were the one responding to *my* point about strength. Read back through the argument. Holy shit.



Conxc said:


> Bold faced lie. Luffy is not using FS here. And unlike you said, it isn't that Katakuri was not using FS here, which you can't prove. It's the fact that he lost his composure so it wasn't as efficient as it was previously. Luffy caught him slipping. FS can be exploited because the user has to be perfectly calm for it to work at max efficiency.


Katakuri said himself that his observation haki couldn't work because he wasn't calm...



Not that it was less efficient, but that it couldn't work...



Conxc said:


> What?
> 
> You love making up your own versions of the manga, huh? This is crazy. The "preset stance" hasn't mattered. The attack that follows is so fast that the enemy still gets got. Not to mention that there was no preset stance on his attack against Apoo, like at all. It's amazing the lengths you'll go. He also tagged King multiple times with these attacks pre-AdCoC. The only problem was that he attacked him in dura form. There's no way around this without you continuing to bs. Most of Zoro's named attacks like Shishi Sonson blitz. Period.


It's more common sense than making up versions of the manga...

To exploit an opening is a task that requires you to react. Zoro taking a stance beforehand would mean he's taking the initiative instead of reacting. To land an attack like that would require him to outright blitz Katakuri rather than exploiting an opening like you were previously arguing.

Against Apoo we didn't even see Zoro initiate the attack because the scene was cutting back and forth between him and Drake. You've seen "Lion's Song" in action enough before to know he assumes a stance before using it.


Conxc said:


> I honestly don't see how this wording has you in this chokehold. You assumed that I meant any slash could kill. I clarified for you, then you still act confused while posting the only other meaning of the word "lethal" that I could still be referring to in this context.


No offense. I don't know if English isn't your first language, or something. But grave and lethal are synonymous in this context. You denied that Zoro would one-shot Katakuri while claiming that you really meant to say the same exact thing, but in different words. That's why I'm confused, Conxc.


Conxc said:


> Any proof of the bold? Because he was losing composure once he started to see that Luffy was developing his own FS. Reasonably, as a tough fight goes on and guys start to get weaker and weaker, stamina and composure are exhausted. Zoro is starting this fight clear cut ahead of Katakuri. Zoro can take a ton of punishment while counterattacking and dealing a lot himself. He can easily wear Katakuri down. If you're betting against Zoro here in a battle of attrition, even with Enma draining him with this much of a Haki/AP advantage then idk what to tell you. Luffy vs Katakuri lasted so long because Luffy started the fight well below Katakuri and had to climb to be around his level. Again, Zoro is already definitively stronger here. He's got the AP and attacking speed to hurt and blitz Kaido in Hybrid even pre-AdCoC. Get real.


There was no sign of him losing composure. He just had more of a sense of urgency. He was clearly still calm as we could see considering he was still using his FS at an incredibly high level. "Composure", meaning the state of being calm and in control of oneself, isn't something you can exhaust.


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## MrPopo (Feb 19, 2022)

Zoro high diffs


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 19, 2022)

I know one thing for certain, and two things for sure.

Anyone that genuinely believes it is downplaying Zoro to point out how he doesn't possess a level of speed that's drastically superior to Snake Man needs to develop some kind of self awareness. Especially when they're unable to provide anything that would demonstrate otherwise.

and anyone that can acknowledge that Zoro isn't that fast, but still insists he's being downplayed by the actual arguments really isn't worth debating against. Because that's the only point against Zoro here. If you'd prefer to twist that into downplay rather than make an actual effort to refute what's being said with an argument substantiated by something at least halfway sustainable then there's no point.

But if it's not directed it's not respected

@Conxc

Your arguments here are inconsistent with the manga, and that should be plain to anyone willing to read based on the panels posted. Believe what you want, but it's weak to act like your favorite character is just being unjustly slandered or downplayed whenever he's argued against. I can't take that approach to debating seriously.

Reactions: Like 3


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## MrPopo (Feb 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> He has already been tested and recognized by Enma. His stamina isn't sucked anymore


Zoro was going to die from Enma


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## Strobacaxi (Feb 19, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Zoro was going to die from Enma


uhm... Yes?


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## MrPopo (Feb 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> uhm... Yes?


Zoro would die form enma but his stamina doesn't suck ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Feb 19, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Zoro would die form enma but his stamina doesn't suck ?


Are you being purposely dumb or something?

Zoro's stamina issues against King came from Enma testing him
He passed the test, so Enma no longer sucks his stamina dry
Hence, current Zoro no longer has stamina issues

Need a drawing?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Are you being purposely dumb or something?
> 
> Zoro's stamina issues against King came from Enma testing him
> He passed the test, so Enma no longer sucks his stamina dry
> ...


I think you need a drawing because youre interpretation of what actually happens in this manga is just wrong lol
Enma works by drawing out the users haki and focusing it into an attack, its fundamentally how it works. Its not gonna stop draining haki because how is it going to get the haki for those insane attacks? Zoro gave into it to try and end king quickly instead of running away from enma, now zoro unlocked ACoC through enma and can use it with enma. The stamina issues are still there because that is fundamentally how enma works. When zoro practices with it, the stamina issues will lessen over time until he can wield it like oden

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> But the mechanics behind haki are exactly the same, which is the point. It was clearly stated that Katakuri's CoA couldn't stand up to Bound Man, and when that was pointed out to us there was a flashback to when Luffy and Kat clashed previously even though he was defending in this instance. The difference between attacking and defending obviously didn't matter in this example. Haki is an energy source, and whether you're attacking or defending with hardening it's being used the same way. Kat's haki was not strong enough to defend against Bound Man. That's the entire point, and there's really no denying it within reason.


There is no way to ignore the fact that Katakuri was blocking there instead of attacking. It's simple: when he blocked, and had no momentum to counter Luffy's own, he was overpowered. When he matched his own Haki + momentum to Luffy's vs Snakeman, which is the objectively stronger version of G4, he ended up overpowering Luffy's *Haki*. He didn't overpower Luffy there *physically*, but in Haki, hence why he was able to hurt Luffy through his CoA in that exchange.

My point here is that you can't make a broad statement like "Katakuri *could not* withstand the raw power of Boundman" when he is shown matching the strength of a more powerful version of G4 and actually *winning *the Haki battle. It was clear that Luffy clearly had the upper hand in that one scenario in which Katakuri was *defending*, and that matters, no matter how much you deny that it does. Why? Because Katakuri was not forced to *defend *throughout the rest of the fight after this point. How can you ignore the scenarios in which he fights back and and *wins* the H2H clash?


Chip Skylark said:


> Bruh I was the one that brought up that argument in the first place. You were the one responding to *my* point about strength. Read back through the argument. Holy shit.


Mmkay, so surely you remember that initially here, we were talking about *Cracker*, not *Katakuri*? and here I *agreed* that Luffy *did *win the H2H strength matchup vs *Cracker*...


Conxc said:


> Yes, he beat him in a battle of strength there, but if you turn the page...You can see Cracker having no problem cutting right through Boundman. At the very least their Haki was on par at this point.


but then you started arguing that Haki diff doesn't matter due to Luffy having a strength advantage. So *I *know what I'm talking about and what *I'm *responding to. Maybe *you *are the one that needs to wake up and pay attention if you call yourself _debating _here.

This aspect of the conversation is now about how Haki diff *does *matter, as the fight between Cracker and Luffy did not just end once we established that Luffy had there strength advantage. 

This applies to the Katakuri conversation because unlike what you said, Boundman did not beat Katakuri in a H2H clash, not a single time. As stated earlier, he managed to overpower Katakuri while he was *just defending*, but once he clashed with him and they put their Haki + strength directly against each other, Katakuri did not win or lose the battle of strength, but came out on top in regards to Haki. You cannot ignore that to claim that Luffy had the strength advantage.


Chip Skylark said:


> Katakuri said himself that his observation haki couldn't work because he wasn't calm...
> 
> 
> 
> Not that it was less efficient, but that it couldn't work...


I concede the point that he wasn't using FS due to him not being calm. There's no other way to interpret that it wouldn't work without a certain level of calmness. 

The point about base Luffy being able to create this opening stands, though. For plot reasons, this opening was created by Luffy interrupting Katakuri's snack time. However, this doesn't give anyone grounds to imply something like this is the only thing that will ever be able to rattle Katakuri to this extent. This panel proves that openings can be made and Katakuri *can *be tagged by even the likes of base WCI Luffy.


Chip Skylark said:


> It's more common sense than making up versions of the manga...
> 
> To exploit an opening is a task that requires you to react. Zoro taking a stance beforehand would mean he's taking the initiative instead of reacting. To land an attack like that would require him to outright blitz Katakuri rather than exploiting an opening like you were previously arguing.


Nah, it's exactly what I said it was earleir: you making things up as you have a habit of doing...

...And this is where the arguments continue to get silly and super nitpicky. How he begins the attack should hold no bearing on his ability to exploit and opening. If anything, these attacks are primarily brought out in circumstances in which he has found said openings. Once he finds an opening...he initiates with his "finishers." Openings have been and can be created just off the speed of the attacks alone. We saw it all through the Mr. 1 fight. We saw it vs Kaku with Asura. We saw it vs King, when he landed attacks like Oni Giri and Lion's Song *twice*. This is just you being petty.


Chip Skylark said:


> Against Apoo we didn't even see Zoro initiate the attack because the scene was cutting back and forth between him and Drake. You've seen "Lion's Song" in action enough before to know he assumes a stance before using it.


Ahh, sounds like he found an opening to exploit and initiated and the "preset stance" made Apoo none the wiser.


Chip Skylark said:


> No offense. I don't know if English isn't your first language, or something. But grave and lethal are synonymous in this context. You denied that Zoro would one-shot Katakuri while claiming that you really meant to say the same exact thing, but in different words. That's why I'm confused, Conxc.


So here's how this went, since I guess you can't remember that far back, which is understandable. I initially said that any slash would be lethal, which as we know can range from meaning a grave injury to killing someone. 


Chip Skylark said:


> Dude, you're the one arguing that Zoro needs his finishers. If you're now switching to the argument that *Zoro can one-shot Katakuri with casual attacks* that's pretty ridiculous.


Here, you assume that I meant the extremity of the word. I didn't clarify in My initial mentioning of the word. That's fair...


Conxc said:


> When I say "finishers" I'm talking about any of Zoro's blitzing attacks. That includes Shishi Sonson, Oni Giri, Rashomon, Asura, etc. Maybe that isn't the best word to refer to those attacks as, but that's what I call them. *And I didn't say casual slashes would one-shot Katakuri. I said any slash would be lethal.* Don't shape my words into what you want.


..but here, I make it very clear which range of the word I was using, which is to gravely injure. That's the only other way that I could have meant it.


Chip Skylark said:


> Saying any slash would be "lethal" literally means that you think they'd be enough to kill Katakuri or cause a grave injury by definition. I'm not a mind reader. Can't get the meaning of your argument beyond your word choice, and you're not really articulating yourself well if that's not actually what you're trying to imply. Would be like me saying "I don't think Katakuri would kill Zoro, I'm saying that Katakuri would un-alive Zoro".


And you responded with this, deciding to keep on with something that had already been clarified and now you're asking *me *if English is my first language. Hmm. 


Chip Skylark said:


> There was no sign of him losing composure. He just had more of a sense of urgency. He was clearly still calm as we could see considering he was still using his FS at an incredibly high level. *"Composure", meaning the state of being calm and in control of oneself, isn't something you can exhaust.*


As the fight goes on and it becomes more and more taxing, composure can begin to slip as stamina depletes and injuries are accrued. Fighting a superior opponent who is as lethal as Zoro can accelerate this. That's just basic common sense, as you mentioned earlier, albeit a bit out of context. Then there's this: You're getting dangerously close to a no limit fallacy here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gin (Feb 19, 2022)

zoro already beat a stronger yc1

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Feb 19, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> its fundamentally how it works. Its not gonna stop draining haki because how is it going to get the haki for those insane attacks?





DarkRasengan said:


> When zoro practices with it, the stamina issues will lessen over time until he can wield it like oden



Read your posts before you post them and you won't contradict yourself.

Zoro has mastered Enma. He can now wield it like Oden did. That was the whole point of the King fight


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## Conxc (Feb 19, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> I know one thing for certain, and two things for sure.
> 
> Anyone that genuinely believes it is downplaying Zoro to point out how he doesn't possess a level of speed that's drastically superior to Snake Man needs to develop some kind of self awareness. Especially when they're unable to provide anything that would demonstrate otherwise.





Chip Skylark said:


> and anyone that can acknowledge that Zoro isn't that fast, but still insists he's being downplayed by the actual arguments really isn't worth debating against. Because that's the only point against Zoro here. If you'd prefer to twist that into downplay rather than make an actual effort to refute what's being said with an argument substantiated by something at least halfway sustainable then there's no point.


I've already showed that you in fact *do not *need to be as fast as Snakeman to land blows on Katakuri. If you want to ignore that, it's already expected and that's on you. If you are choosing to die on the hill that base WCI Luffy was capable of tagging Katakuri but Zoro could not, then you are downplaying. Get off that high horse.


Chip Skylark said:


> But if it's not directed it's not respected
> 
> @Conxc


I don't care about this. Whether I @ you or not, you see exactly what I'm saying. The respect from my side continues to wane. You have an extremely disingenuous way of debating. We all have our agendas and it happens with everyone at some point, but you will literally make things up and pass it off as canon, and *stick to it*. Poor excuses, arguing semantics, you name it.


Chip Skylark said:


> Your arguments here are inconsistent with the manga, and that should be plain to anyone willing to read based on the panels posted. Believe what you want, but it's weak to act like your favorite character is just being unjustly slandered or downplayed whenever he's argued against. I can't take that approach to debating seriously.


No, it's weak to get in these threads and do everything you can to belittle a character's performance. You even make threads for that purpose. It's weak to sit here and act coy when you know what you do and what you're known for at this point. Zoro clearly wins this fight. There's nothing more to that. You've instead spent your time in this thread not acknowledging that and choosing to play Devil's Advocate, but not so cleverly attempting to hide your agenda. At this point, bud, we can agree to disagree.


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Feb 19, 2022)

Katakuri is already the new Doflamingo, we have over half a dozen people at least on his level in Wano.  Kaido will be the new Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Canute87 (Feb 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Read your posts before you post them and you won't contradict yourself.
> 
> *Zoro has mastered Enma*. He can now wield it like Oden did. That was the whole point of the King fight


So what's the black blade then?

DLC?


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## spawn3 (Feb 19, 2022)

I'm not exactly sure why Roger would be able to defeat Katakuri. 
He has never shown the speed feats required to get past future sight. 
AP doesn't matter if he can't hit Kata. 
Who cares about portrayal?  Pirate King is a circumnavigational feat anyways. 
Until further notice, Kata > Roger.

Reactions: Funny 9


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## Ar1sE (Feb 19, 2022)

This thread


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## o0Shinthi0o (Feb 19, 2022)

spawn3 said:


> I'm not exactly sure why Roger would be able to defeat Katakuri.
> He has never shown the speed feats required to get past future sight.
> AP doesn't matter if he can't hit Kata.
> Who cares about portrayal?  Pirate King is a circumnavigational feat anyways.
> Until further notice, Kata > Roger.


Well if I saw Roger needing extreme diff to beat a YC1 with no noticable haki game then I would not see anything extremely unlikely in ur statement .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 19, 2022)

spawn3 said:


> I'm not exactly sure why Roger would be able to defeat Katakuri.
> He has never shown the speed feats required to get past future sight.
> AP doesn't matter if he can't hit Kata.
> Who cares about portrayal?  Pirate King is a circumnavigational feat anyways.
> Until further notice, Kata > Roger.


Hes the pirate king, he should be well beyond either the speed to tag kata, he should have fs of his own, and he should have the stamina to outlast a FS user of YC1 level
Your arguments are dumb and dont add to anything, nice try though


Nice dupe btw

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ShadoLord (Feb 20, 2022)

Current Zoro > King > Marco > RT Zoro > Katakuri

its fairly obvious with their consistently bigger bounty. King is worth more than Marco due to his race and it’s inherited abiliies, meaning he’s stronger. It’s the same reason why Whitebeard’s bounty is higher than the warmonger Kaido since WB is flatout superior. Kat is the weakest since he also have the lowest bounty while his best feats is equalling WCI Luffy who’s weaker than all the RT5…except Killer maybe…

it all makes sense why Kat’s bounty is barely above 1b…cuz he’s one shot material for Yonko just like WCI Luffy. While we got 1.33b Marco hanging with Admirals and BigMeme. 1.39b King dropping Marco on his ass before putting in the work on RT Zoro.


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## Danyboy (Feb 20, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Well if I saw Roger needing extreme diff to beat a YC1 with no noticable haki game then I would not see anything extremely unlikely in ur statement .


So current fresh Zoro needs extreme diff to defeat King?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Feb 20, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Are you being purposely dumb or something?
> 
> Zoro's stamina issues against King came from Enma testing him
> He passed the test, so Enma no longer sucks his stamina dry
> ...


If you can't use a weapon without killing you. You can't say you  don't have a stamina problem


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## o0Shinthi0o (Feb 20, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> So current fresh Zoro needs extreme diff to defeat King?


Depends .
Is Zoro still on a death timer for excessive haki consumption ?


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## Perrin (Feb 20, 2022)

Zoro is like that pokemon where u have to use cut to get past the occasional tree. U keep him for getting rid of tough obstacles but he isnt ur most well rounded fighter.


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## Danyboy (Feb 20, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Depends .
> Is Zoro still on a death timer for excessive haki consumption ?


Well, hes much better w Enma, compared to himself at the beginning of King's fight.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Feb 20, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> Well, hes much better w Enma, compared to himself at the beginning of King's fight.


I am not talking about the beginning where Zoro was getting tossed around the whole onigasima like a tennis ball . 
I am talking about postPU , his advCoC + enma timer . Which KOed him at the end of the fight .


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## Perrin (Feb 20, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> I am not talking about the beginning where Zoro was getting tossed around the whole onigasima like a tennis ball .
> I am talking about postPU , his advCoC + enma timer . Which KOed him at the end of the fight .


Nap time is very important for zoro. He doesn’t really engage with fights lasting more than ten minutes.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Baroxio (Feb 20, 2022)

I believe Zoro would lose to Katakuri but Sanji would win against Katakuri, despite Sanji being weaker than Zoro. Purely because Sanji has high speed and has already shown the level of Color of Observation skill necessary to dodge Katakuri's attacks (thereby defying his future sight). Sanji's new speed feat is ludicrous and should easily be enough to match Snakeman Luffy, if not exceed him. 

Zoro's main strategy against high speed targets is to either overpower their attack directly or counterattack when they go in for a hit. He's more than capable of overpowering Katakuri and Katakuri's attacks, but against something like Peerless Donuts which is an Awakening attack that doesn't use Katakuri's own body, simply overpowering the attack or counter attacking does absolutely nothing to Katakuri himself. 

Katakuri's ability to attack from range combined with his ability to predict his opponent's attacks and morph his body out of the way make it incredibly difficult for Zoro to land a decisive blow. If Katakuri decided to attack in melee with something like Spiked Mochi or some shit, then Zoro would have an opportunity to counterattack. But as long as Katakuri plays the range game with Awakening, then it's hard to see how Zoro wins.

...unless you think that Zoro can "blitz" Kaido, in which case, sure, he blitzes Katakuri too. But....let's just say that I don't subscribe to that storyline and leave it at that.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Perrin (Feb 20, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> I believe Zoro would lose to Katakuri but Sanji would win against Katakuri, despite Sanji being weaker than Zoro. Purely because Sanji has high speed and has already shown the level of Color of Observation skill necessary to dodge Katakuri's attacks (thereby defying his future sight). Sanji's new speed feat is ludicrous and should easily be enough to match Snakeman Luffy, if not exceed him.
> 
> Zoro's main strategy against high speed targets is to either overpower their attack directly or counterattack when they go in for a hit. He's more than capable of overpowering Katakuri and Katakuri's attacks, but against something like Peerless Donuts which is an Awakening attack that doesn't use Katakuri's own body, simply overpowering the attack or counter attacking does absolutely nothing to Katakuri himself.
> 
> ...


Well thought out response however.
Would blitzing kaidou mean he could blitz katakuri? FS means u dont have to just rely on ur own speed and reactions. I wouldn’t be suprised if katakuri could dodge some attacks that kaido couldn’t


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## Danyboy (Feb 20, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> I am not talking about the beginning where Zoro was getting tossed around the whole onigasima like a tennis ball .
> I am talking about postPU , his advCoC + enma timer . Which KOed him at the end of the fight .


Let me make it simple so that you would understand. Zoro being better w Enma=dont have to deal w Enma trying to hinder him whole rooftop and Kind fight. Its also going to be second use of ACoc. Even Luffy had issues first time, but now, he is like a pro w it.


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## Steven (Feb 20, 2022)

Zorro has now just to high stats for Kata

Powercreep is a bitch but you need to accept Kata is old news,unless we will see him again with his own Zenkaiboost

Reactions: Winner 3


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## o0Shinthi0o (Feb 20, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> Let me make it simple so that you would understand. Zoro being better w Enma=dont have to deal w Enma trying to hinder him whole rooftop and Kind fight. Its also going to be second use of ACoc. Even Luffy had issues first time, but now, he is like a pro w it.


Luffy is Luffy . He has advCoA , AdvCoO to back up his state . Dont see Luffys feat and try to make it as Zoros , it does not work that way .

I saw Zoro could not block Kings (a YC1 btw ) Zone attack without getting sent flying (no enma holding him back excuse here ), i saw Zoro unlocked advCoC because of Enma and still could not see King in his speed mode (still not Enmas fault ), Zoro even after PU was waiting for speed mode to damage King , and most importantly ENMA was taking too much haki from Zoro ( because Zoro is not strong enough to handle Enma like Oden ) & made it possible to have crazy AP but as a drawback it was on timer b4 Enma suck Zoro dry & kill Zoro .So, Until Zoro turns Enma black or shows he can handle great power of enma with AdvCoC , he will have this timer drawback that will kill him for over feeding haki to enma  for power.


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

I guess Marco and King can't touch Kata because FS OP

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 2


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## Danyboy (Feb 20, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Luffy is Luffy . He has advCoA , AdvCoO to back up his state . Dont see Luffys feat and try to make it as Zoros , it does not work that way .
> 
> I saw Zoro could not block Kings (a YC1 btw ) Zone attack without getting sent flying (no enma holding him back excuse here ), i saw Zoro unlocked advCoC because of Enma and still could not see King in his speed mode (still not Enmas fault ), Zoro even after PU was waiting for speed mode to damage King , and most importantly ENMA was taking too much haki from Zoro ( because Zoro is not strong enough to handle Enma like Oden ) & made it possible to have crazy AP but as a drawback it was on timer b4 Enma suck Zoro dry & kill Zoro .So, Until Zoro turns Enma black or shows he can handle great power of enma with AdvCoC , he will have this timer drawback that will kill him for over feeding haki to enma  for power.


Yah right, i forgotten w whom i was talking to. Chill out, try to not catch strike.


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## Conxc (Feb 20, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> PS: Also think Katakuri wins against Law, Kid, any supernova not named Luffy currently(unless we get showings from those who haven't done anything yet), and he'd do better than Big Mom against Law and Kid. Not saying he's stronger than her, but they don't have the skillset to counter his skillset effectively.


The blind hatred for Zoro really had people ignore this


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> I guess Marco and King can't touch Kata because FS OP


You... realize that Kat is a YC1 himself? Obviously they'd have a tough time. Don't get peoples insistence on arbitrarily dismissing FS as a formidable asset simply because it was used by a character that was defeated in the previous arc. I dread the day Wano ends and these same people treat Kaido and Big Mom as if they're "the new Doflamingo", and fodder for whatever new enemy pops up next.

Minimizing the entire point to FS when Kat also has incredible speed and proven reactions while also deflecting the argument to other characters isn't much of an argument, either. 

Would love to see an actual reasonable argument for Zoro.

@Kroczilla @Great Potato 

I believe in you.


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## Conxc (Feb 20, 2022)

@Chip Skylark I doubt anyone is willing to waste their time tbh. You’ve continuously shown on more than a few topics that if *you *don’t accept certain arguments, no matter how well they’re supported, that you just won’t and will ignore the points were ever made. You then run to a guy who is maybe even more bias than you are regarding this character and Potato, who is probably the most neutral poster in this section who has already expressed how he thinks this would go. That’s pretty funny to me.

@Great Potato Would love to see you’re in depth take on this matchup, though. Even though I think this matchup is pretty clear cut, admittedly I have my bias as well.


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> You... realize that Kat is a YC1 himself?


A fan-made term.


Chip Skylark said:


> Obviously they'd have a tough time. Don't get peoples insistence on arbitrarily dismissing FS as a formidable asset simply because it was used by a character that was defeated in the previous arc. I dread the day Wano ends and these same people treat Kaido and Big Mom as if they're "the new Doflamingo", and fodder for whatever new enemy pops up next.


Let's stay on topic. I see this with a lot of abilities. Sort of a no limits fallacy. FS, Kaido's durability, CoC...It's one thing to claim FS is an excellent asset and another to say anyone would have a hard time touching him. Other powerful characters can be swtiched for Zoro and I'd like to see how people would apply the same logic. How does Rayleigh hit Katakuri? How does Law deal with FS? What can Marco do to him?


Chip Skylark said:


> Minimizing the entire point to FS when Kat also has incredible speed and proven reactions while also deflecting the argument to other characters isn't much of an argument, either.


Katakuri still lost. Time to get over it. Same Luffy who was wrecked by Kaido. Someone who Zoro put up a respectable performance against. Speaking about speed, wasn't Zoro on his last legs the one who parried and blitzed Kaido in Asura? That didn't happen according to a lot of guys too. So that's it if you want to stick strictly to feats.

I doubt Oda cares to go into that much detail. Overall narrative suggests that Luffy is way, way more powerful now than he was in WCI, with at least two new major powerups. And no matter how much you guys are against it, 1000 chapters of story have shown that Zoro is never that far from Luffy. Never.


Chip Skylark said:


> Would love to see an actual reasonable argument


Oh, there's been plenty of arguments. People simply resort to "FS OP Kata fast".

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> A fan-made term.
> 
> Let's stay on topic. I see this with a lot of abilities. Sort of a no limits fallacy. FS, Kaido's durability, CoC...It's one thing to claim FS is an excellent asset and another to say anyone would have a hard time touching him. Other powerful characters can be swtiched for Zoro and I'd like to see how people would apply the same logic. How does Rayleigh hit Katakuri? How does Law deal with FS? What can Marco do to him?
> 
> ...


Its funny because there have been no reasonable arguments at all lol


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## o0Shinthi0o (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> I guess Marco and King can't touch Kata because FS OP


same way Kata cant even hurt King , right ?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> same way Kata cant even hurt King , right ?


Let's stay on topic. I've been one of those people who were against that notion.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Let's stay on topic. I've been one of those people who were against that notion.


King has speed mode which may be fast enough and we dont know if marco is fast enough, he seems like a fast character and got hits on logia admirals


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> A fan-made term.


Based on the stories established power scaling. It's been emphasized throughout the series that Yonko crews tend to be comparable to one another. We've been given little reason to believe that Big Mom's top commanders wouldn't be able to rival other top commanders. Even Kaido himself wanted to avoid the all out war that would ensue if Big Mom brought her top commanders. Which wouldn't have been the case if the Calamities could've easily snuffed them out.


Eustathios said:


> Let's stay on topic. I see this with a lot of abilities. Sort of a no limits fallacy. FS, Kaido's durability, CoC...It's one thing to claim FS is an excellent asset and another to say anyone would have a hard time touching him. Other powerful characters can be swtiched for Zoro and I'd like to see how people would apply the same logic. How does Rayleigh hit Katakuri? How does Law deal with FS? What can Marco do to him?


Literally nobody is saying that "_anyone_" would have a hard time touching Kat. Just people around his level without the proven feats. Instead of addressing that you guys have just been throwing a tantrum in the thread about FS. Don't see how you acknowledge FS as a valuable asset when you argue as if it's unreasonable to expect it to do its intended job even against opponents that have neither FS, or speed that dramatically surpasses Kat's.

Zoro got an incredible buff in strength. Unfortunately hitting a lot harder ≠ hitting a lot faster.



Eustathios said:


> Katakuri still lost. Time to get over it. Same Luffy who was wrecked by Kaido. Someone who Zoro put up a respectable performance against. Speaking about speed, wasn't Zoro on his last legs the one who parried and blitzed Kaido in Asura? That didn't happen according to a lot of guys too. So that's it if you want to stick strictly to feats.


Losing doesn't automatically make you weaker than the top guys in the arc that follows. Zoro's performance was part of a team. Even Luffy was defeated with one or two hits the moment that Kaido got to focus on him alone despite performing incredibly well before. Also addressed this before, but being on your last legs has never prevented a character from letting out an attack stronger than anything else they've used; which is what happened with Zoro here.

Same thing with:

Zoro vs Daz Bones
Luffy vs Lucci
Law vs Big Mom
etc. etc.

I'm sure you've never had any issue with acknowledging the fact that these characters being on their last legs didn't hinder their final attack in these examples. Why do you struggle with acknowledging that with the Zoro v Kaido example even though Zoro clearly tapped into a new level of strength?

Also already pointed out how Luffy also "blitzed" Kaido with just G2 under similar circumstances. That feat in itself evidently doesn't demonstrate a level of speed that would allow someone to blitz an incredibly fast FS user. 


Eustathios said:


> I doubt Oda cares to go into that much detail. Overall narrative suggests that Luffy is way, way more powerful now then he was in WCI, with at least two new major powerups. And no matter how much you guys are against it, 1000 chapters of story have shown that Zoro is never that far from Luffy. Never.
> 
> Oh, there's been plenty of arguments. People simply retort to "FS OP Kata fast".


I've said this before, but it's ever more relevant as of late. The reason you've always believed they were never far apart is probably because you insist on that dynamic no matter what is shown.

"_So what if Luffy learned G2/G3, and beat an opponent almost twice as strong as the one Zoro struggled greatly against. They were equal before, so they must be not far apart now_"

now we're at

"_So what if Luffy has mastered advanced versions of all 3 haki, is splitting the skies, and is fighting 1on1 against a Yonko. Zoro was close before, so he must still be close now_"

There comes a time when relying purely on that outdated dynamic isn't enough. This is that time. You can't just translate Luffy's growth to Zoro just because their strength rivaled one another once upon a time. Especially when we know for a fact that he hasn't had nearly all of the same developments.

Dynamics can change. They've changed plenty in the past, and it's still possible for them to change now.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Based on the stories established power scaling. It's been emphasized throughout the series that Yonko crews tend to be comparable to one another.


All we know is that they're in a deadlock, period. Nothing about how they stack up against each other based on the rank they hold. Why are the WBPs called the strongest in the world if they're all equal? Why are the RHPs specifically singled out for the strength of their commanders? How does this balance even work if the crews are built in fundamentally different ways? You have massive crews and smaller ones. Each crew only needs to be strong enough to deter a possible attack which isn't that hard to do when you have a Yonkou as a captain and 4 other entities ready to jump on the guy who makes the first move.



Chip Skylark said:


> Literally nobody is saying that "_anyone_" would have a hard time touching Kat. Just people around his level without the proven feats. Instead of addressing that you guys have just been throwing a tantrum in the thread about FS. Don't see how you acknowledge FS as a valuable asset when you argue as if it's unreasonable to expect it to do its intended job even against opponents that have neither FS, or speed that dramatically surpasses Kat's.
> 
> Zoro got an incredible buff in strength. Unfortunately hitting a lot harder ≠ hitting a lot faster.


Okay then how do those characters touch Kata? Rayleigh can't win because he has no feats against FS, right? Same as the rest.


Chip Skylark said:


> Losing doesn't automatically make you weaker than the top guys in the arc that follows. Zoro's performance was part of a team.


No it wasn't. Not all of it. Asura sure wasn't. There were panels where Kaido was fully focused on him.


Chip Skylark said:


> Even Luffy was defeated with one or two hits the moment that Kaido got to focus on him alone despite performing incredibly well before. Also addressed this before, but being on your last legs has never prevented a character from letting out an attack stronger than anything else they've used; which is what happened with Zoro here.
> 
> Same thing with:
> 
> ...


This is irrelevant to our topic but yes injuries do indeed affect attack power. Especially when you can barely stand.


Chip Skylark said:


> Also already pointed out how Luffy also "blitzed" Kaido with just G2 under similar circumstances. That feat in itself evidently doesn't demonstrate a level of speed that would allow someone to blitz an *incredibly fast FS user.*


Who by feats would get one shot by Kaido, just like Luffy? Since you do like to rely mostly on feats rather than dynamics and narrative.


Chip Skylark said:


> I've said this before, but it's ever more relevant as of late. The reason you've always believed they were never far apart is probably because you insist on that dynamic no matter what is shown.
> 
> "_So what if Luffy learned G2/G3, and beat an opponent almost twice as strong as the one Zoro struggled greatly against. They were equal before, so they must be not far apart now_"
> 
> ...


Outdated dynamics implies they were a thing way, way back and stopped. This isn't the case. M3 dynamics have been a thing for literally forever. Now all of a sudden people can't accept that King or Zoro are that strong and assume 1000 chapters of narrative are wrong.


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## Danyboy (Feb 20, 2022)

I wonder, what Katakuri gonna do w huge ass AdvCoc Tatsumaki?


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## Kroczilla (Feb 20, 2022)

@Chip Skylark  Already gave my opinion on this match up



Kroczilla said:


> OT. I think Zoro takes this though with significant difficulty. Tagging Katakuri is going to be a chore in itself. Doing it while avoiding attacks from all angles via peerless donuts makes said chore pretty hellish. Fact is he's going to get hit a lot and take a lot of punishment. Luckily for him, he's all about taking punishment and if he gets his timing right should be able to land a few hits which would more than turn the tide in his favour


Zoro does take this. I don't think that particular point is up for debate. I do think that it will be a high diff as opposed to a walk in the park like some folks are implying. I do think that the outcome of Zoro Vs King is irrelevant to this equation as King and Katakuri are vastly different fighters. Match types still matter a lot, and whether folks like it or not, Katakuri's skillset makes him a real problem for Zoro.

But yeah, no question Zoro takes this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Great Potato (Feb 20, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> You... realize that Kat is a YC1 himself? Obviously they'd have a tough time. Don't get peoples insistence on arbitrarily dismissing FS as a formidable asset simply because it was used by a character that was defeated in the previous arc. I dread the day Wano ends and these same people treat Kaido and Big Mom as if they're "the new Doflamingo", and fodder for whatever new enemy pops up next.
> 
> Minimizing the entire point to FS when Kat also has incredible speed and proven reactions while also deflecting the argument to other characters isn't much of an argument, either.
> 
> ...



I don't feel like going too in depth on this match-up right now, but match-up wise I'd look at it somewhat similar to Zoro vs Ohm.

That fight Ohm had Zoro's backs to the ropes because he was a CoO expert going against someone with no haki at all, Zoro was getting shut down trying to go on the offensive because his movements were being read, but he had such an edge in firepower that all he had to do was wait for the right opportunity to bait and force a trade that would be beneficial to him.

That's the simplified version. A large part of the reason Katakuri was so dominant against Luffy wasn't just because of his speed, but because he held a sizeable advantage in power which meant any trade-offs they had turned out favorable to him. He loses that edge here because Zoro has him heavily outgunned in offensive power, and one bad trade is all it would take for things to go sour.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> I wonder, what Katakuri gonna do w huge ass AdvCoc Tatsumaki?


Can he add ACoC to tatsumaki? He hasnt shown this feat so we can just say he can do it. Its also a ranged AoE attack


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 20, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> I don't feel like going too in depth on this match-up right now, but match-up wise I'd look at it somewhat similar to Zoro vs Ohm.
> 
> That fight Ohm had Zoro's backs to the ropes because he was a CoO expert going against someone with no haki at all, Zoro was getting shut down trying to go on the offensive because his movements were being read, but he had such an edge in firepower that all he had to do was wait for the right opportunity to bait and force a trade that would be beneficial to him.
> 
> That's the simplified version. A large part of the reason Katakuri was so dominant against Luffy wasn't just because of his speed, but because he held a sizeable advantage in power which meant any trade-offs they had turned out favorable to him. He loses that edge here because Zoro has him heavily outgunned in offensive power, and one bad trade is all it would take for things to go sour.


Can respect that more. Though feel like it neglects aspects like Katakuri’s ability to morph his body, and depends heavily on mentality. In the first place the reason why Katakuri was so willing to trade blows with Luffy was because he knew that he had the advantage in power. He’d naturally be more difficult to hit than Ohm because of his logia-like maneuverability,  and he wouldn’t necessarily be confident in a direct clash against current Zoro like he was with WCI Luffy. Even against Luffy we saw Katakuri use his body or mochi to avoid attacks and trap his opponent before countering.


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## Danyboy (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Can he add ACoC to tatsumaki? He hasnt shown this feat so we can just say he can do it. Its also a ranged AoE attack


If Zoro can use his ACoc w other atacks, why he cant w tatsumaki? Anyway rooftop Tatsumaki that hurt Kaido will fuck up Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

People agree that Zoro decisively beats Marco, arguably the strongest commander we've seen, yet aren't willing to give him the W against Katakuri. I wonder how long he will be relevant for. Doffy's time was over by the end of WCI.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Feb 20, 2022)

Mans called guys to the thread to agree with him and they didn’t. Absolutely hate to see it.

So who’s gonna make the Current Zoro vs Doffy thread and claim Doffy wins because he can fly and Zoro can’t?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Danyboy said:


> If Zoro can use his ACoc w other atacks, why he cant w tatsumaki? Anyway rooftop Tatsumaki that hurt Kaido will fuck up Katakuri.


Because he hasnt shown to be able to on a ranged or AoE attack. Mihawks ranged attack on whitebeard didnt have ACoC, so why would a much weaker guy who hasnt shown the feat be assumed to be able to?


Actually, has anyone in the manga ever used ACoC on a ranged-AoE attack?


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Because he hasnt shown to be able to on a ranged or AoE attack. *Mihawks ranged attack on whitebeard didnt have ACoC,* so why would a much weaker guy who hasnt shown the feat be assumed to be able to?
> 
> 
> Actually, has anyone in the manga ever used ACoC on a ranged-AoE attack?


You don't know that.


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## Conxc (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Because he hasnt shown to be able to on a ranged or AoE attack. Mihawks ranged attack on whitebeard didnt have ACoC, so why would a much weaker guy who hasnt shown the feat be assumed to be able to?
> 
> 
> Actually, has anyone in the manga ever used ACoC on a ranged-AoE attack?


Many believe Kamusari was an AdCoC attack.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> I guess Marco and King can't touch Kata because FS OP


Yes the only person who can win is Luffy due to fs. Top tiers stalemate. Mihawk might have fs so he could win.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Feb 20, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Many believe Kamusari was an AdCoC attack.


SBS 100 makes it out to be using conquers haki

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Because he hasnt shown to be able to on a ranged or AoE attack. Mihawks ranged attack on whitebeard didnt have ACoC, so why would a much weaker guy who hasnt shown the feat be assumed to be able to?
> 
> 
> Actually, has anyone in the manga ever used ACoC on a ranged-AoE attack?


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> You don't know that.


Visually it didnt, and no one said it did, it also didnt damage jozu at all, do the burden of proof is "prove it did" because all signs point to it hasent.

Also boro breath? No indication of ACoC, all of big moms aoe ranged attacks, no indication of ACoC. Why is zoro able to do this feat that hes never shown before if 2 yonkou havent shown to be able to do it?

Lets just assume zoro can do everything


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Many believe Kamusari was an AdCoC attack.


Yes and it was a close range attack, not a dragon twister tornado that lingers. This attack is literally the same as what kaido has been doing and is similar to kings punch in effect. The shockwave of the close range attack knocks back the opposition

This is an example of a typical "they arent even touching" ACoC attack and is irrelevent to a ranged AoE attack that lingers

The burden of proof is on you guys to show that zoro can do what he hasnt done before, and what no one in the manga have done before, and not me proving he cant because he hasnt shown he can do it


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## Conxc (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Visually it didnt, and no one said it did, it also didnt damage jozu at all, do the burden of proof is "prove it did" because all signs point to it hasent.
> 
> Also boro breath? No indication of ACoC, all of big moms aoe ranged attacks, no indication of ACoC. Why is zoro able to do this feat that hes never shown before if 2 yonkou havent shown to be able to do it?
> 
> Lets just assume zoro can do everything


refresh the thread sweetheart.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Visually it didnt, and no one said it did,


Haki was a very vague concept then. And why would anyone describe his attack in such detail?


DarkRasengan said:


> it also didnt damage jozu at all,


Speaks of Jozu's defense more than anything.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> People agree that Zoro decisively beats Marco, arguably the strongest commander we've seen, yet aren't willing to give him the W against Katakuri. I wonder how long he will be relevant for. Doffy's time was over by the end of WCI.


Who are these “people” who agree? Incredibly vague. If there was a poll I’d imagine most people agree zoro wins. Most people who have weighed in briefly say zoro that seems like a good indication of how polls go.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Haki was a very vague concept then. And why would anyone describe his attack in such detail?
> 
> Speaks of Jozu's defense more than anything.


There were multiple people with knowledge of ACoC there in the war, and literally every instance of ACoC usage, people comment on the attack

As ive said, the burden of proof is on you to prove that zoro can do something hes never shown to do before, and that no one has shown to do before in this manga. And not me proving he cant, because he has never done it


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## Eustathios (Feb 20, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Who are these “people” who agree? Incredibly vague. If there was a poll I’d imagine most people agree zoro wins. Most people who have weighed in briefly say zoro that seems like a good indication of how polls go.


If it's about Marco vs Zoro, polls have been done and the consensus was overwhelmingly in favor of Zoro. This one is generating debate because of the old FS meme which I thought was over, but apparently it isn't.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 20, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> If it's about Marco vs Zoro, polls have been done and the consensus was overwhelmingly in favor of Zoro. This one is generating debate because of the old FS meme which I thought was over, but apparently it isn't.


I’m saying make a poll for katakuri vs zoro I bet he wins the poll. There was no pushback against zoro winning? FS lends itself to stonewalling but idt that means most people think kata wins.


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## Conxc (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> There were multiple people with knowledge of ACoC there in the war, and literally every instance of ACoC usage, people comment on the attack
> 
> As ive said, the burden of proof is on you to prove that zoro can do something hes never shown to do before, and that no one has shown to do before in this manga. And not me proving he cant, because he has never done it


So you're gonna ignore the scan that was posted of Zoro launching an AdCoC projectile Oni Giri, which is not typically a projectile attack?


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Conxc said:


> So you're gonna ignore the scan that was posted of Zoro launching an AdCoC projectile Oni Giri, which is not typically a projectile attack?


Where is the black lightning in that attack?

He has ACoC on his blades, but theres no indication his haki transfers to the wind slash, its the same as kings punch, his attack is in his fist, but the air burst his fist makes is ranged, though the air burst doesnt contain kings haki


It matters here because people are arguing zoro can imbue lingering wind tornado attacks with ACoC, which has never been shown. His sword attacks have ACoC, but imbuing a wind tornado with it? Absolutely nothing indicates he or anyone else can do it


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## Conxc (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Where is the black lightning in that attack?


Good question, but I don't see how that matters. You acknowledge that Zoro's swords are actively coated in AdCoC...the chapter's main focus is Zoro's awakening and use of AdCoC, but you think that this one attack that he used was bot an AdCoC attack? There's nothing indicating tha he's switching back and forth from regular CoA and AdCoC for certain attacks. 


DarkRasengan said:


> He has ACoC on his blades, but theres no indication his haki transfers to the wind slash, its the same as kings punch, his attack is in his fist, but the air burst his fist makes is ranged, though the air burst doesnt contain kings haki


I'm not sure why you keep likening AdCoC attacks to King's Punch.


DarkRasengan said:


> It matters here because people are arguing zoro can imbue lingering wind tornado attacks with ACoC, which has never been shown. His sword attacks have ACoC, but imbuing a wind tornado with it? Absolutely nothing indicates he or anyone else can do it


Tatsumaki isn't just Zoro spinning his arms and creating a tornado. There are multiple slashes inside of the tornado as well, hence why the attack cut Kaido, which obviously shows that Zoro was able to imbue CoA into the attack. AdCoC imbuement hasn't been shown to be any different fundamentally than imbuing an attack with CoA.


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 20, 2022)

DarkRasengan said:


> Where is the black lightning in that attack?
> 
> He has ACoC on his blades, but theres no indication his haki transfers to the wind slash, its the same as kings punch, his attack is in his fist, but the air burst his fist makes is ranged, though the air burst doesnt contain kings haki
> 
> ...


Haki has always been able to transfer to air slashes. No reason AdvCoC would be an exception to that.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 20, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Haki has always been able to transfer to air slashes. No reason AdvCoC would be an exception to that.


Has it? I cant recall an example. 

Edit: i just went back and read the fight with monet, zoro did use an air slash that hurt her and shes a logia so he must have imbued the air with haki. So he could be able to imbue a tornado with ACoC.


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## bil02 (Jun 26, 2022)

Bump


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## Eustathios (Jun 26, 2022)

Zoro is far stronger than mere commanders. He wins mid diff at most.


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## MrPopo (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is far stronger than mere commanders. He wins mid diff at most.


if you have to use a mode that can kill you in order to win that fight is a lot more difficult than a mid diff fight


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## Eustathios (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> if you have to use a mode that can kill you in order to win that fight is a lot more difficult than a mid diff fight


Only because Enma was testing him and the mink medicine. If he's not nerfed he won't have any problems with Katakuri just like he steamrolled King.


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## MrPopo (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Only because Enma was testing him and the mink medicine. If he's not nerfed he won't have any problems with Katakuri just like he steamrolled King.


Nothing to do with the mink medicine and until shown otherwise Zoro's king of hell style is a timer that can kill himself

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 26, 2022)

This thread is insulting to common sense 

Current Zoro is in the class above the YC1s

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dunno (Jun 26, 2022)

Dunno said:


> Zoro is way faster and stronger than Katakuri. He blitzes and one-shots.


Still the case.


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## Eustathios (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Nothing to do with the mink medicine and until shown otherwise Zoro's king of hell style is a timer that can kill himself


Because Enma was testing him. He won't have any issues with that. It's an insult to group Zoro with mere commanders at this point who are the new trash level.


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## charles101 (Jun 26, 2022)

Tbh, i can't see Katakuri doing much better than King here. So Zoro wins after tough fight


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> *Only because Enma was testing him and the mink medicine.* If he's not nerfed he won't have any problems with Katakuri just like he steamrolled King.


Enma gave him the power & because Zoros haki is weaker than Oden he can't handle enma . 
Never in the fight the medicine was brought up . Medicine side effects took effect after he wake up from excessive haki usage . As chopper was another indicator for that .


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## Eustathios (Jun 26, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


> Enma gave him the power & because Zoros haki is weaker than Oden he can't handle enma .


This wasn't implied. Enma simply didn't test Oden during usage because he grew up wielding it. 


o0Shinthi0o said:


> Never in the fight the medicine was brought up . Medicine side effects took effect after he wake up from excessive haki usage . As chopper was another indicator for that .


Supplementary material clarified that Zoro was out because of the medicine. That's why he had enough time to fly back to the island and strike a cool pose before falling.


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> This wasn't implied. Enma simply didn't test Oden during usage because he grew up wielding it.
> 
> Supplementary material clarified that Zoro was out because of the medicine. That's why he had enough time to fly back to the island and strike a cool pose before falling.


Zoro himself mentioned Oden could handle it easily . Oden proved to enma that he is worthy & Zoro is in the process . Once he can fully control Enma like Oden then he will not have the haki timer .

He used a attack to save himself from sure death by falling & then got KOed . The medicine part come way after with chopper being worried & grim ripper


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

Damn it sure is hard to read

Enma was testing Zoro during the fight and taking more haki than normally - Hence Zoro's arm being dried up against King but not in the rooftop, hence King explicitly stating Enma was holding Zoro back, hence Zoro explicitly stating Enma was testing him

Zoro passed out because of the medicine, not the haki usage. Literally no one has ever passed out from haki usage, and this includes mr "Spend all my haki to the point I can't use any during 10 minutes". 

Zoro passed the test and no longer suffers from Enma testing him.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Jun 26, 2022)

Don't see what changed.


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## Eustathios (Jun 26, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Don't see what changed.


Commander level got demoted to trash level.


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## Mercurial (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Commander level got demoted to trash level.


That's old news

The fact that an Admiral treats a YC1 and another YC as nothing compared to him in the same way, is old news from... forever
Akainu did that more than ten years old ago
He negged Marco and Vista's combined attack and mentioned them together the same way as "bothersome Haki users", without any difference between them

Both Marco and Vista did shit to him
Both were regarded exactly the same, both were nothing more than a bother
And that doesn't make Marco and Vista close in strength let alone equals, the same way what happened against Ryokugyu doesn't make King and Queen close in strength let alone equals

A 10 and a 5 appear the same nothing against a 50. Happened to Marco + Vista against Akainu, happened to King + Queen against Ryokugyu. That's it
Admirals are strong
People thought that they weren't as strong as Yonkos, as if Garp's statements about the balance in the world from freaking chapter freaking 432 didn't exist

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> This wasn't implied. Enma simply didn't test Oden during usage because he grew up wielding it.
> 
> Supplementary material clarified that Zoro was out because of the medicine. That's why he had enough time to fly back to the island and strike a cool pose before falling.


What supplementary material?


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 26, 2022)

Zoro low or no diff


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## The crazy hacker (Jun 26, 2022)

Zoro mid diff same as before.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Jun 26, 2022)

Zoro low or neg diff Kata gang, do y'all realize

1. Zoro's insane AP would be irrelevant if he can't touch Kata? If you believe he CAN touch him, gimme the feats, not assumption, nor headcanon that he can.

2. Zoro low or neg diffing Kata implies that Zoro is very damn near close to an Admiral or on par. Y'all seriously believe that RN?


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## trance (Jun 26, 2022)

zoro handily wins


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## AnimePhanatic (Jun 26, 2022)

Yeah, he does


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## Mercurial (Jun 26, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> What supplementary material?

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jun 26, 2022)

I think current Zoro wins with high difficulty


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 26, 2022)

It won’t show for me. It’s not the 1053.1 right?


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## AnimePhanatic (Jun 26, 2022)

Anyone gonna tell me Zoro's speed feats for tagging Kata?

This isn't wank, just logical scaling. Kata was dodging Snake Man gattling (Black Mamba) and blitzed Luffy too after doing that. If he'd used his trident then, GG. Same Snake Man(not even Black Mamba) that Kaido had to resort to using FS to dodge.

So how does Zoro tag him?
Not saying FS is everything, neither am I saying Zoro won't win. Just wanna see what feats he has for tagging him


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Anyone gonna tell me Zoro's speed feats for tagging Kata?


Zoro blocked Hakkai faster than anyone could move, including FS using Luffy
Zoro tagged hybrid Kaido
Zoro tagged speed mode King
Zoro ran up and cut prometheus faster than FS using Luffy could move away from it
Zoro blitzed speed mode King in the last attack
Zoro reacted, moved, jumped and blocked King's attack by the time CoO focused super speedster Sanji realized he was being attacked

Zoro's attack speed has always been extremely fast.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Eustathios (Jun 26, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Anyone gonna tell me Zoro's speed feats for tagging Kata?
> 
> This isn't wank, just logical scaling. Kata was dodging Snake Man gattling (Black Mamba) and blitzed Luffy too after doing that. If he'd used his trident then, GG. Same Snake Man(not even Black Mamba) that Kaido had to resort to using FS to dodge.
> 
> ...


Blitzed King and Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Well actually (Jun 26, 2022)

Zoro mid


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## AnimePhanatic (Jun 26, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Zoro blocked Hakkai faster than anyone could move, including FS using Luffy
> Zoro tagged hybrid Kaido
> Zoro tagged speed mode King
> Zoro ran up and cut prometheus faster than FS using Luffy could move away from it
> ...


-Luffy didn't plan on blocking Hakai, no one there planned on doing so
-That Kaido wasn't trying to dodge, neither was he using FS
-Speed mode King has nothing scaling him to FS Kaido or Katakuri. On the other hand, King doesn't have speed feats on their level:
*Zoro had equal speed with base Luffy in Kuri, before Luffy trained his physicals in Udon, but let's say it remains constant even after that
*Zoro could blitz King a few times, the first combo attack with Sanji, Lion Song, etc. But then, his base speed is equal to Luffy's, and Snake Man's speed boost is greater than Zoro's attack speed boost. You might wanna deny this but using Kaido as reference, according to y'all,
Zoro clashed with Kaido and overpowered-blitzed him with Ashura. This means Kaido that wasn't initially focusing on Zoro could still react to Zoro, but couldn't even touch Luffy's attacks. This means Zoro's attack speed is slower than Luffy's as Ashura is one of Zoro's faster end attacks.
Of course, if you deny this, this means Zoro didn't overpower Kaido in CQC clashes like y'all claim.
-Can't remember, I'll hafta re-read that part
-Sanji also saved Zoro from attacks, but true

-Yeah, but is it Snakeman level fast? No


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## AnimePhanatic (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Blitzed King and Kaido.


And Kiku made Kaido bleed
Raizo made Kaido scream


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## Eustathios (Jun 26, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> And Kiku made Kaido bleed
> Raizo made Kaido scream


Kaido didn't even take the Scabbards seriously. He was legit trying to take out Zoro on the RT and couldn't do it despite Zoro being crippled from Hakai

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 26, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Yeah, but is it Snakeman level fast? No


wci snakeman? absolutely

katakuri is fodder. just like doffy is now


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> -Luffy didn't plan on blocking Hakai, no one there planned on doing so


Ah yes, they planned on standing still and tanking it of course
None of them were able to move by the time Zoro had. Zoro's reactions and speed were clearly above the others, including Luffy's.

Unless you really wanna die on the hill that they just gave up and stood still waiting for their deaths



AnimePhanatic said:


> -That Kaido wasn't trying to dodge, neither was he using FS


He also wasn't trying to get hit by Ashura, but still did



AnimePhanatic said:


> -Speed mode King has nothing scaling him to FS Kaido or Katakuri.


There's nothing not scaling him to Kata either. The simple fact that Zoro mentioned his speed already puts it on a high level



AnimePhanatic said:


> Zoro could blitz King a few times, the first combo attack with Sanji, Lion Song, etc. But then, his base speed is equal to Luffy's, and Snake Man's speed boost is greater than Zoro's attack speed boost.


His base speed isn't equal to Luffy's. As shown by him reacting and moving much faster than base FS using Luffy vs Hakkai and Prometheus attacks



AnimePhanatic said:


> This means Kaido that wasn't initially focusing on Zoro could still react to Zoro, but couldn't even touch Luffy's attacks. This means Zoro's attack speed is slower than Luffy's as Ashura is one of Zoro's faster end attacks.
> Of course, if you deny this, this means Zoro didn't overpower Kaido in CQC clashes like y'all claim.


1st, Zoro literally called Kaido out before attacking him, so GTFO of here with that "Kaido wasn't focusing on Zoro" bullshit
2nd, Kaido was able to block Luffy's attacks quite easily, I think you skipped a ton of chapters man
3rd, Zoro did blitz fully focused Hybrid Kaido. If they clashed their weapons, and then Zoro still cut him without Kaido being able to block, then Kaido was blitzed.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Sanji also saved Zoro from attacks, but true


Difference being that Sanji saved Zoro from Queen's attack because Zoro was busy blocking King's, while Sanji wasn't doing anything when Zoro saved him from King.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Because Enma was testing him. He won't have any issues with that. It's an insult to group Zoro with mere commanders at this point who are the new trash level.


Zoro's king of hell style requires him to exude haki that will kill him nothing to do with Enma testing him


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## Conxc (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Zoro's king of hell style requires him to exude haki that will kill him nothing to do with Enma testing him


It has everything to do with Enma testing him. Enma was draining so much as the test to see if Zoro could revive it. This was pretty clear.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Zoro's king of hell style requires him to exude haki that will kill him nothing to do with Enma testing him


King of hell style is just adCoC

Or are you suggesting Zoro is the only character in the story that would die from using adCoC for over 2 minutes?


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## MrPopo (Jun 26, 2022)

Conxc said:


> It has everything to do with Enma testing him. Enma was draining so much as the test to see if Zoro could revive it. This was pretty clear.


King of hell style requires Zoro to release haki on the scale that will kill himself Enma testing him or not doesn't change that 


Strobacaxi said:


> King of hell style is just adCoC
> 
> Or are you suggesting Zoro is the only character in the story that would die from using adCoC for over 2 minutes?


That's what the manga says untill shown otherwise that's how it works

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 26, 2022)

Zoro low difficulty 

katakuri’s future sight will annoy Zoro for a bit, but all Zoro needs to do is land one advanced CoC attack to win the fight because katakuri is a glass canon

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> That's what the manga says untill shown otherwise that's how it works


No, what the manga says is that Enma was testing Zoro and sucking more haki than normal

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Perrin (Jun 26, 2022)

The story is for kids and the underlying themes arent tricky. Zoro defeating king was symbolic of him surpassing YC1 tier. He will now be above all YC1’s regardless of what dipfuckery their special skills bring to the table.
Next arc he will beat shanks to awaken Black Blade
Then Shiryu to awaken decent CoO.
Then Mihawk to become WSS.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Next arc he will beat shanks

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (Jun 26, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


>


Red haired guy, one arm, dislikes swimming.
Edit: Sorry i was thinking of Kidd.
Shanks is that pirate with a scar on the left side of his face thats often associated with that famous swordsman.
Edit 2: no hang on thats still Kidd

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Conxc (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> King of hell style requires Zoro to release haki on the scale that will kill himself Enma testing him or not doesn't change that
> 
> That's what the manga says untill shown otherwise that's how it works


Nope. KoH style is AdCoC. The excessive Haki drain was due to Enma testing him, as explicitly stated.


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## Perrin (Jun 26, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Nope. KoH style is AdCoC. The excessive Haki drain was due to Enma testing him, as explicitly stated.


Sanji’s existence is just Enma testing Zoro. It’s no wonder that when we first meet Oden he cooks some grub.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 26, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> No, what the manga says is that Enma was testing Zoro and sucking more haki than normal





Conxc said:


> Nope. KoH style is AdCoC. The excessive Haki drain was due to Enma testing him, as explicitly stated.


Zoro can now use haki on the level that would that would have  previously killed himself now ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bil02 (Jun 26, 2022)

>Luffy beats Katakuri,Luffy fans: It's Oda's way of telling the readers he surpassed all Yonkou commanders,ain't no way any of them beats him anymore.

>Zoro beats King,Luffy fans: Zoro beating King doesn't mean he can beat Katakuri or Marco,he still needs 2 powerups to be sure.


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## Perrin (Jun 26, 2022)

bil02 said:


> >Luffy beats Katakuri,Luffy fans: It's Oda's way of telling the readers he surpassed all Yonkou commanders,ain't no way any of them beats him anymore.
> 
> >Zoro beats King,Luffy fans: Zoro beating King doesn't mean he can beat Katakuri or Marco,he still needs 2 powerups to be sure.


Some people irrationally dislike zoro, even tho his powerups make more sense…

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Zoro can now use haki on the level that would that would have  previously killed himself now ?


Again, the _excessive_ Haki drain was a result of Enma testing him. It chose to test him during the King fight. Notice it didn't do so on the RT. Enma was _excessively_ draining Haki during the King fight even before AdCoC.


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## MrPopo (Jun 26, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Again, the _excessive_ Haki drain was a result of Enma testing him. It chose to test him during the King fight. Notice it didn't do so on the RT. Enma was _excessively_ draining Haki during the King fight even before AdCoC.


The more haki enma exudes the stronger the attack.


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## Perrin (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> The more haki enma exudes the stronger the attack.


Punk Rotten!
Gear 4!
Room!
More Enma!
Kid has no left arm!


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## Soba (Jun 26, 2022)

Zoro wins very high diff 

Kata's a nightmare to hit. Still I envision the Z-man softening him up little by little before ending it with a finisher. Kata's no joke, and has crazy potential.


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## bil02 (Jun 26, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Some people irrationally dislike zoro, even tho his powerups make more sense…


Double standards...what can we do!?! It is what it is.


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## Perrin (Jun 26, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Double standards...what can we do!?! It is what it is.


Play it safe and underestimate sanji and play down his feats, it is literally the only solution. Do me proud.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Jun 26, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> The more haki enma exudes the stronger the attack.


yes, the more that Zoro *willingly *puts in. The *excessive *Haki drain is part of Enma's test. Liek when his arm shrivels. Obviously at that point it's taking more than intended.


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## Empathy (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is far stronger than mere commanders. He wins mid diff at most.



Zoro literally is a mere commander, at the moment. The newest official YFM alongside Cabaji (?).


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## Lmao (Jun 26, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> Kaido didn't even take the Scabbards seriously. He was legit trying to take out Zoro on the RT and couldn't do it despite Zoro being crippled from Hakai


Kaido did not use a single named attack against Zoro in his hybrid mode.

"Trying"


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Kaido did not use a single named attack against Zoro in his hybrid mode.
> 
> "Trying"


Except Hakkai and Thunder Bagua

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lmao (Jun 26, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Except Hakkai and Thunder Bagua


What Thunder Bagua? Hakai was done with BM, I'm counting Kaido's solo attacks.

But let's not kid ourselves here, if Kaido legitimately tried he'd have toasted the RT5 with his Flaming Bagua with minimal effort.


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 26, 2022)

Lmao said:


> What Thunder Bagua? Hakai was done with BM, I'm counting Kaido's solo attacks.
> 
> But let's not kid ourselves here, if Kaido legitimately tried he'd have toasted the RT5 with his Flaming Bagua with minimal effort.




But yeah of course Kaido could kill them all


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## Lmao (Jun 26, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> But yeah of course Kaido could kill them all


Is this _not _Kaido succeeding in putting both Zoro and Law down? If anything this supports my stance: there's not a single panel of Kaido using a named attack in his hybrid and failing to put down a RT5 member, lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bil02 (Jun 26, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Is this _not _Kaido succeeding in putting both Zoro and Law down? If anything this supports my stance: there's not a single panel of Kaido using a named attack in his hybrid and failing to put down a RT5 member, lol.


You realize that version of Zoro has like 30 broken bones right?

Ofc it's going to put him down when the guy had already collapsed from exhaustion,the less endurant law wasn't beaten by it though.

It should also be noted that Hybrid Kaido only used 2 named attacks when the supernova were still all on the roof; Ragnaroku and Raimei Hakkei,not enough to accurately draw conclusions imo.


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## Seethesedogs (Jun 26, 2022)

With as much Mochi that Katakuri has, Zoro has just as many slashes to take him down.


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## Lmao (Jun 26, 2022)

bil02 said:


> You realize that version of Zoro has like 30 broken bones right?


Wouldn't have made a difference either way, Law was in fine shape and couldn't react at all to counter the Bagua even though Kaido specifically warned him he was coming. If Law couldn't do anything then Zoro wouldn't fare any better.



bil02 said:


> It should also be noted that Kaido only used 2 named attacks when the supernova were still all on the roof; Ragnaroku and Raimei Hakkei,not enough to accurately draw conclusions imo.


He knocked Luffy out cold with one Rangarok and then proceeded to throw AdCoC Luffy unconscious off Onigashima. Luffy is the strongest SN and has two advanced forms of Haki. We can very accurately assume he'd beat any Supernova not named Luffy fairly easily.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bil02 (Jun 26, 2022)

Lmao said:


> Wouldn't have made a difference either way, Law was in fine shape and couldn't react at all to counter the Bagua even though Kaido specifically warned him he was coming. If Law couldn't do anything then Zoro wouldn't fare any better.


And it still didn't put Law down.


Lmao said:


> He knocked Luffy out cold with one Rangarok and then proceeded to throw AdCoC Luffy unconscious off Onigashima. Luffy is the strongest SN and has two advanced forms of Haki. We can very accurately assume he'd beat any Supernova not named Luffy fairly easily.


Kaido koed Base Luffy with that,unless you argue 1 second of Hakai<Ragnaraku,yes a fresh Zoro could have taken Ragnaraku and keep going,Kid too.


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## Lmao (Jun 26, 2022)

bil02 said:


> And it still didn't put Law down.


How did it not put him down?  

He hit Law and after the attack ended Law was still on the ground whilst Kaido was giving a speech, remove PIS and there's nothing that stops Kaido from destroying Law with a follow up attack that he cannot defend himself from.



bil02 said:


> Kaido koed Base Luffy with that,unless you argue 1 second of Hakai<Ragnaraku,yes a fresh Zoro could have taken Ragnaraku and keep going,Kid too.


Stop the cap bro, Zoro and Kid are not tougher or more durable than base Luffy, if a Zoan user got momentarily KO'd you can bet Zoro and Kid will be too.

LOL at them taking a Ragnarok and keep going.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bil02 (Jul 6, 2022)

Anything changed ?


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## Eustathios (Jul 6, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Anything changed ?


Zoro low diff.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jul 6, 2022)

I used to think Katakuri would kick his ass, but I'm forced to say Zoro would beat him now.


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## ShWanks (Jul 6, 2022)

Zoro high diff. He'd struggle massively to connect a strike on Katakuri with his far inferior speed. Eventually his endurance will outlast Katakuri's & a swift Ashura should oneshot the exhausted Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Jul 6, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Zoro is the only character in the story that would die from using adCoC for over 2 minutes?


Is Luffy the only character that has a COA time limit.

Yes.

It is called a double edge Sword that is Enama and G4.


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## Ren. (Jul 6, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Except Hakkai and Thunder Bagua


what TB?



Strobacaxi said:


> But yeah of course Kaido could kill them all


O yeah so a reanged attack on two guys.

o yeah, we were talking about the TB that hits the head of G4 and one shots him.


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jul 6, 2022)

Kata wins extreme due to matchup advantage.
Zoro is not tagging him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 4 | Dislike 1


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## juju15112 (Jul 6, 2022)

Zoro 1 shots

Reactions: Agree 3


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## juju15112 (Jul 6, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> Kata wins extreme due to matchup advantage.
> Zoro is not tagging him.


Then how is it extreme

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## ShWanks (Jul 7, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Then how is it extreme


Because Kata will be extremely exhausted from trying to put Zoro down seeing as how he struggled to put Pre-advanced Haki Luffy down. He'll gas out & pass out from exhaustion just like Sanji did against Queen is what he's implying.

I gave Zoro the win but honestly scaling says he shouldn't be capable of hitting Katakuri with anything other than MAYBE Ashura & even then Katakuri is known to stop threatening attacks before they unleash


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## juju15112 (Jul 7, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Because Kata will be extremely exhausted from trying to put Zoro down seeing as how he struggled to put Pre-advanced Haki Luffy down. He'll gas out & pass out from exhaustion just like Sanji did against Queen is what he's implying.
> 
> I gave Zoro the win but honestly scaling says he shouldn't be capable of hitting Katakuri with anything other than MAYBE Ashura & even then Katakuri is known to stop threatening attacks before they unleash


Zoro would blitz Kat, same way he blitz Kaido. Zoro also has Aoe attacks that covered small town like his tornado attacks. Zoro 1 shots him

Reactions: Agree 5


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## ShWanks (Jul 7, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Zoro would blitz Kat, same way he blitz Kaido. Zoro also has Aoe attacks that covered small town like his tornado attacks. Zoro 1 shots him


Nooooooo. Katakuri is faster than Non Future Sight Kaido who literally suicide tanked Zoro's attack. Zoro didn't blitz Kaido. Kaido simply didn't guard nor dodge due to being suicidal & underestimating Zoro. You can't scale Zoro's speed to Kaido because Kaido didn't make any attempt to react. He just stood there to tank in character like usual.

We've seen Zoro is only as fast as Pre-Enhanced Sanji, Base Luffy & Killer as further proof. Katakuri is KING COBRA at it's peak speed level speed. He's significantly faster than Zoro.

Zoro does oneshot if he can strike Katakuri though.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Conxc (Jul 8, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Nooooooo. Katakuri is faster than Non Future Sight Kaido who literally suicide tanked Zoro's attack. Zoro didn't blitz Kaido. Kaido simply didn't guard nor dodge due to being suicidal & underestimating Zoro. You can't scale Zoro's speed to Kaido because Kaido didn't make any attempt to react. He just stood there to tank in character like usual.


Future sight doesn’t grant added speed to a character. It shows the user a few seconds into the future which allows for them to react faster, but that has nothing to do with actul movement speed. Zoro did blitz Kaido, and he was not suicidal. Re-read the chapter. Kaido saw Zoro prepping an attack and clearly confronted him with the intention of interrupting said attack, completely focused on Zoro. You can clearly see *at the very least *that Kaido winds up to attack him. What happens after is rather controversial, but the bottom line is Kaido wasn’t just standing there waiting to be attacked. That is a blatant misinterpretation of that scene.


ShWanks said:


> We've seen Zoro is only as fast as Pre-Enhanced Sanji, Base Luffy & Killer as further proof. Katakuri is KING COBRA at it's peak speed level speed. He's significantly faster than Zoro.
> 
> Zoro does oneshot if he can strike Katakuri though.


if pure movement speed decided fights, OP fights would look way different than they have. Reaction speeds and attacking speeds matter as well. Many of Zoro’s finishers are blitzes, always some of the fastest attacks out of the characters on the tiers he has been on.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Well actually (Jul 8, 2022)

This man makes Sannin fans look reasonable.


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## bil02 (Aug 29, 2022)

Did anything change?


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## Perrin (Aug 29, 2022)

Zoro just reached YC1 level and ur going to pit him against the strongest YC1 of the lot???

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Danyboy (Aug 29, 2022)

There are people who think Kuri took big L on cover stories, but im not one of them, so Zoro still mid diff.


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## bil02 (Aug 29, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Zoro just reached YC1 level and ur going to pit him against the strongest YC1 of the lot???


Kuri has an info box saying he is the strongest commander?

We know from SBs that yonkou commander bounties are boosted by the emperor auras/reputation.

Big Mom:4.38 billion
Katakuri: 1.057 billion

Luffy: 3 billion
Zoro: 1.111 billion.

Whether it is feats or portrayal,the master swordsman is ahead of Charlotte Katakuri.


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## Perrin (Aug 29, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Kuri has an info box saying he is the strongest commander?
> 
> We know from SBs that yonkou commander bounties are boosted by the emperor auras/reputation.
> 
> ...


He just has so much gravity compared to the other YC1’s. Has the most tricks, has the best design, fought the main character. We’ve got a glimpse of croc and Lucci’s glow up. I imagine when we next see dogtooth again he’ll be clashing equally with an even stronger zoro.


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 29, 2022)

Perrin said:


> He just has so much gravity compared to the other YC1’s. Has the most tricks, has the best design, fought the main character. We’ve got a glimpse of croc and Lucci’s glow up. I imagine when we next see dogtooth again he’ll be clashing equally with an even stronger zoro.


We're seeing Katakuri this very chapter. He used awakening and failed to capture the Germa LOL

Kata was the entry YC1. Which is why he was defeated by a version of Luffy that's far weaker than current Zoro


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## Perrin (Aug 29, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> We're seeing Katakuri this very chapter. He used awakening and failed to capture the Germa LOL
> 
> Kata was the entry YC1. Which is why he was defeated by a version of Luffy that's far weaker than current Zoro


Croc was the entry Shichibukai


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## bil02 (Aug 29, 2022)

Perrin said:


> He just has so much gravity compared to the other YC1’s. Has the most tricks, has the best design, fought the main character. We’ve got a glimpse of croc and Lucci’s glow up. I imagine when we next see dogtooth again he’ll be clashing equally with an even stronger zoro.


Nah Zoro got the best Yc1 design.

Until that clash happens,it's just your imagination lol.

He got great skills(Awakening,Coc,Fs) yeah but at the end of the day,what made him "invincible" was Future sight,Luffy even confirmed that.
-King got lunarian anatomy
-Marco got Regen hax.

All this comamders have a single skill that make them look invulnerable and the moment you overcome that,you beat them.

Katakuri is also currently losing an encounter with Oven against Germa and Caesar despite using Awakening and always having FS active 24h/24.

Going by your logic,Katakuri should even be stronger than Law and Kid,I mean he has a mastered awakening,on panel Coc,invincible future sight etc...while they only have a half mastered awakening.


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## Perrin (Aug 29, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Until that clash happens,it's just your imagination lol.


It’s animated better than parts of wano.


bil02 said:


> He got great skills(Awakening,Coc,Fs) yeah but at the end of the day,what made him "invincible" was Future sight,Luffy even confirmed that.
> -King got lunarian anatomy
> -Marco got Regen hax.


-Ben got hype


bil02 said:


> Katakuri is also currently losing an encounter with Oven against Germa and Caesar despite using Awakening and always having FS active 24h/24.


I mean zoro struggles against groups so it’s not a point against Kata. Also Kata is like the Dom of one piece now that WB has died. He’s all about family.

In all seriousness this cover story is not doing him favours. Remember the fanmade fight he had against the BBP. Good times. Good times.


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 29, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Croc was the entry Shichibukai


Kata doesn't have ID gains, nor 2 years to train his abilities.


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## bil02 (Aug 29, 2022)

Perrin said:


> I mean zoro struggles against groups so it’s not a point against Kata. Also Kata is like the Dom of one piece now that WB has died. He’s all about family.


Problem is Zoro isn't a character portrayed to be a master of observation,we've seen in WCi that his Future sight is always active,he is an evasion,stealth fighter yet he didn't see Ceasar's gas coming nor could he evade it.


Perrin said:


> In all seriousness this cover story is not doing him favours. Remember the fanmade fight he had against the BBP. Good times. Good times.


Yeah that fanmade fight was real better than what we got.

To make my above point clearer,I'm not even saying Katakuri is weaker than king or Marco,but his post WCi resume don't make him special at all.


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## Conxc (Aug 29, 2022)

Nothing has changed, right? Zoro still wins. IMO, the cover story is a FS dehype though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Aug 29, 2022)

trance said:


> zoro handily wins


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## The crazy hacker (Aug 29, 2022)

Zoro mid diff still.


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## olorun (Aug 29, 2022)

Zoro and it's not close. Even with FS he won't be able to dodge zoro's mountain sized attacks that fully engulf him and one-shot me.
Unless ofc someone wants to argue that he's anywhere near as durable as kaido or king or that he can extend his body to the size of mountains.


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## Vinsmoke31 (Aug 29, 2022)

olorun said:


> Zoro and it's not close. Even with FS he won't be able to dodge zoro's mountain sized attacks that fully engulf him and one-shot me.
> Unless ofc someone wants to argue that he's anywhere near as durable as kaido or king or that he can extend his body to the size of mountains.


He doesnt need to be as durable he can see the future and outspeed him.

If zoro does a giant AoE, katakuri sees it and closes the distance so hes in melee range.

Simple as that.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 29, 2022)

Zoro frys him


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## convict (Aug 29, 2022)

Zoro mid difficulty at most


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## Phantom Thief (Aug 29, 2022)

Zoro high-difficulty


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## Draco Bolton (Aug 29, 2022)

If Zoro use adcoc, shows the reflexes that allowed him to hit King in speed mode then here he can oneshot or two shot.

Zoro lower end of mid diff because directly hitting Katakuri won't happen immediately and he can still use Awakening which will require some efforts from Zoro to get rid of that while dealing with Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Aug 29, 2022)

Zoro Swift diff.

Comparing current Zoro to Katakuri is like comparing Infinity itself to a mere number.


When Katakuri learn ad CoC WE Can talk.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Vinsmoke31 (Aug 29, 2022)

Yumi Zoro said:


> Zoro Swift diff.
> 
> Comparing current Zoro to Katakuri is like comparing Infinity itself to a mere number.
> 
> ...


When zoro learn futuresight, or awakening we can talk

Kata is the same level as zoro and is a bad matchup

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


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## Steven (Aug 30, 2022)

FS and shapeshift is diehard counter for Zorro

Zorros offensive with ACoC is higher but that last like 2 minutes.Easy for Kata to dodge

I say Kata mid-diffs

Reactions: Winner 1


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## bil02 (Aug 30, 2022)

Zoro high diffs.

Aoe is a good counter to future sight,Katakuri kind of admitted it when G3 tagged him into mirror world.

Tatsumaki is a mountain sized whirlpool of windblades,not something you can shapeshift around or sidestep.
If Caesar's gas was able to tag Katakuri,so would Tatsumaki which would then hit him and break off his Fs focus.

Awakening attacks can be dealt with Coc coated barriers,Zoro wins with any high tier attacks .


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Why do people wank previous arc antagonists? Katakuri time is over, just like Doflamingo, Rob Lucci,  Crocodile , Arlong. Etc. Katakuri is like Sanji level now.
> 
> Zoro mid diffs.


 But Crocodile is an exception.


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Katakuri wins due to Matchup. Zoro is  slower than Pre-Enhanced Sanji. Katakuri is too fast & can stop all his big attacks with FS.

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Unresponsive (Sep 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Katakuri wins due to Matchup. Zoro is  slower than Pre-Enhanced Sanji. Katakuri is too fast & can stop all his big attacks with FS.


I see zoro getting turned into a donut

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I see zoro getting turned into a donut


I see him getting suffocated.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Empathy (Sep 1, 2022)

Zoro with high difficulty. Not because Zoro is weak, but because Katakuri is stronger than given credit for. Both are YFMs.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Imagine (Sep 1, 2022)

I don't see any of the Rooftop SN losing to Katakuri. Zoro's rooftop feats on top of fighting and defeating King gives him the win every time. FS is all Kata has atm and it isn't a default win.

WCI arc Katakuri is a powerscale victim.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (Sep 1, 2022)

Zoro dealt with FS twenty years ago in Skypiea when he beat Ohm, what’s the issue here Katabros.


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Perrin said:


> Zoro dealt with FS twenty years ago in Skypiea when he beat Ohm, what’s the issue here Katabros.


He ain't touching Kata with less than Pre-Enhanced Sanji lvl speed...


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## icyBankai (Sep 2, 2022)

At this point in the story Zoro needs to be able to defeat YC1s with no more than mid-high difficulty if he's to have a chance of surpassing Mihawk.

We're in endgame now.

I don't like that Oda showed Zoro struggling with King but that could have been caused by his injuries from blocking hakai and inability to deal lasting damage to King.

With ACoC Zoro should be decisively above WCI Katakuri.

Something fun to think about is perhaps Katakuri's loss to Luffy increased Kata's own haki levels and he is now a legit FM+


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## Esdese (Sep 2, 2022)

Zoro no diff.

Reactions: Like 2 | GODA 1 | Dislike 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Sep 3, 2022)

Zoro is YC1+ or low top tier.
He is not losing to any YC1 period.


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## Ludi (Sep 3, 2022)

Zoro wins around high diff


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## Soldierofficial (Sep 3, 2022)

Zoro shouldn't be pushed to his limits here, high diff at best.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Sep 4, 2022)

Actually I'll give Zoro the win cuz he'd get future sight mid battle like Luffy did seeing how fast he got adcoc under dire conditions.

Zoro extreme diff


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## olorun (Sep 17, 2022)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> He doesnt need to be as durable he can see the future and outspeed him.
> 
> If zoro does a giant AoE, katakuri sees it and closes the distance so hes in melee range.
> 
> Simple as that.


He can "outspeed" someone faster than him??? I don't think you know how future sight or clairvoyance works. Katakuri may see the future and his only option is to act before zoro acts. But because zoro is faster and his attacks have the full range of a mountain. Katakuri is not gonna be fast enough to run away from zoro. Especially the distance of a mountai(or entire island comparing the onigashima feat) katakuri has simply tell off and we're gonna need to wait for his buff as the patriarch of the big mom pirates. Simple


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## Ushiromiya Battler (Sep 17, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Match takes place on Onigashima rooftop
> 
> Distance: 100m apart
> 
> ...


Preach brother, decimate the Legion  

Downgrade Zoro to YC2


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## Gorilla Cook (Sep 17, 2022)

Zoro is on the lower end of Admiral lvl. At this point, he's around Luffy during 2nd round of the Kaido fight. Rooftop Zoro vs Katakuri is an actual interesting fight though, idk who id favor.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2022)

I think Katakuri would win. Zorro has the attack power to put him down but a much faster Luffy couldn’t even touch Katakuri until he developed future sight himself.

The whole Luffy vs Kat fight showed if u have no way to get past future sight u can’t win. In a 1 vs 1 with no interruptions, Kat can turn the whole battlefield into mochi and suffocate him.

Zorro will have no ground to stand on and even Luffy couldn’t escape the mochi without eating it (Zorro isn’t rubber) or without Jinbeis help with water.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ludi (Sep 17, 2022)

Zoro wins around mid to high diff


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 17, 2022)

killfox said:


> much faster Luffy couldn’t even touch Katakuri until he developed future sight himself.


Luffy is not much faster. Zoro is comparable to rooftop luffy in speed. that luffy is faster than wci luffy. he reacted to thunder bagua in base

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 17, 2022)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Luffy is not much faster. Zoro is comparable to rooftop luffy in speed. that luffy is faster than wci luffy


Rooftop Luffy being faster than WCI Luffy doesn't mean he's even nearly as fast as a basic Snake Man punch, not to mention Culverin and Black Mamba(Gattling)
So yeah, WCI Snake Man Luffy > Rooftop Luffy in speed

Zoro having an AP advantage of Katakuri is enough, but tryna push for superior speed and reaction over him too? Seems desperate

Reactions: Like 1


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## bil02 (Sep 17, 2022)

killfox said:


> I think Katakuri would win. Zorro has the attack power to put him down but a much faster Luffy couldn’t even touch Katakuri until he developed future sight himself.
> 
> The whole Luffy vs Kat fight showed if u have no way to get past future sight u can’t win. In a 1 vs 1 with no interruptions, Kat can turn the whole battlefield into mochi and suffocate him.
> 
> Zorro will have no ground to stand on and even Luffy couldn’t escape the mochi without eating it (Zorro isn’t rubber) or without Jinbeis help with water.


Ask yourself something; can thunder Bagua speed blitz Katakuri? 

Zoro as a swordsman has many high dash speed attacks like Shi shishisonson,Rengoku Oni Giri,Dragon Damnation which blitzed speed-mode king or even Ashura.

Tatsumaki as a tornado of blades also has the adequate Aoe required to tag Katakuri if G3 Luffy could tag him into mirror world with.

No one says it would be easy for Zoro but with what he's shown,he definitely tags Katakuri and should win this around high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 17, 2022)

bil02 said:


> G3 Luffy could tag him into mirror world with.


PIS. And it was clearly because of Brulee. If Brulee weren't there, Luffy is dragging Katakuri nowhere.
We KNOW how much Katakuri cares for his family, Luffy had his dear sister in his arm, you expected him to just leave his grip?
It's almost like y'all don't read the story and just look at pictures

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Vinsmoke31 (Sep 17, 2022)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Luffy is not much faster. Zoro is comparable to rooftop luffy in speed. that luffy is faster than wci luffy. he reacted to thunder bagua in base


Zoro is comparable to pre g4 luffy in speed.

He couldnt react to nerfed killer.

Kaido was a group fight, the sole focus wasnt on zoro.


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## Germa 66 (Sep 17, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> *reading this thread*


Lmfao

On the real Zoro could lose. It’s a bad match up. Only speedsters are suited to comfortably beating Katakuri

Reactions: Winner 2


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## convict (Sep 17, 2022)

At least when Zoro cuts you down you typically fall forward on your stomach so when it happens here a few milliseconds into the fight Katakuri can still maintain his reputation of rarely lying on his back in defeat. Only Luffy and Oven have been able to cause this as far as we know.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Steven (Sep 17, 2022)

Nothing rly changed.

Zorro has higher AP with ACoC but that last like 2 minutes

Meanwhile Kata danced around fucking Snakeman.Something Zorro would never be able to do.

Its simple a matter of fact that Zorro cant hit Katakuri.Its a rly bad MU for Zorro

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Germa 66 (Sep 17, 2022)

Bird Dance may be enough to tag King in speed mode, *but Katakuri is on a whole nother level COMPLETELY*



Green Mom is gonna have to tag Sanji in for this one.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> Bird Dance may be enough to tag King in speed mode, *but Katakuri is on a whole nother level COMPLETELY*
> 
> 
> 
> Green Mom is gonna have to tag Sanji in for this one.


This guy Kat was literally dancing around omnidirectional attacks that were so fast they caused the ground to explode.

Reminder that Katakuri only lost because he stabbed himself through the guy with a freaking trident. Pre stab he was wrecking Luffy casually.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Soba (Sep 17, 2022)

Kata is still an incredibly difficult match-up for Zoro. Really fast, insane CoO, doesn't really get hit, has stamina for days 

Zoro still wins, but doesn't do so with anything less than high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The crazy hacker (Sep 17, 2022)

People talk about Katas speed but forget that the same Luffy that reacted to Katakuri couldn't react to a thunder bagua from Kaido.


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## Imagine (Sep 17, 2022)

ITT: fundamental misunderstanding of Future Sight


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## Baroxio (Sep 17, 2022)

The Luffy that failed to react to a Thunder Bagua from Kaido was the same Luffy that just thought Kaido may have killed his entire team and completely abandoned the plan to lay low. In order to use Future Sight you have to be calm. Luffy got blitzed because he wasn't using Future Sight, and he wasn't using Future Sight because he wasn't calm.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Gorilla Cook (Sep 17, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> The Luffy that failed to react to a Thunder Bagua from Kaido was the same Luffy that just thought Kaido may have killed his entire team and completely abandoned the plan to lay low. In order to use Future Sight you have to be calm. Luffy got blitzed because he wasn't using Future Sight, and he wasn't using Future Sight because he wasn't calm.


This times a thousand. People overhype the first interaction between Kaido and Luffy, not that it would have made any crazy difference if Kaido was actually serious.

However, Zoro in Ashura was able to get the upper hand on hybrid Kaido with a hundred broken bones. There is no way in hell you can convince me that this isn't enough to overcome Katakuri.

Katakuri is undersold because he is perceived to have "lost" to Luffy. Anyone with decent reading comprehension can tell that Luffy was still weaker than Katakuri until the rooftop, even than a 100% serious Katakuri vs Rooftop Luffy would most likely be an extreme diff fight.


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## NotTommy (Sep 17, 2022)

Zoro beats Katakuri with perhaps quite a bit more difficulty than he'd beat King in a rematch since the two former Commanders specialise in different stuff.

Katakuri's exceptional and incredibly fast and evasive but Zoro's past him and is moving on to Beckmann and Shiryu then an Admiral, Mihawk and potentially that Gorosei member. Zoro has some devastating large-scale attacks, really quick and precise yet effective moves and whilst Kata is faster than Zoro, his future sight isn't infallible. Zoro has plenty of moves to put Kata down whilst it would take quite a lot to put down Zoro. I think I could be potentially much trickier than the King fight but I think Zoro takes it.


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## Germa 66 (Sep 17, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> The Luffy that failed to react to a Thunder Bagua from Kaido was the same Luffy that just thought Kaido may have killed his entire team and completely abandoned the plan to lay low. In order to use Future Sight you have to be calm. Luffy got blitzed because he wasn't using Future Sight, and he wasn't using Future Sight because he wasn't calm.


And he wasn’t even in a speed form like against Kata.


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## Germa 66 (Sep 17, 2022)

Gorilla Cook said:


> This times a thousand. People overhype the first interaction between Kaido and Luffy, not that it would have made any crazy difference if Kaido was actually serious.
> 
> However, Zoro in Ashura was able to get the upper hand on hybrid Kaido with a hundred broken bones. There is no way in hell you can convince me that this isn't enough to overcome Katakuri.
> 
> Katakuri is undersold because he is perceived to have "lost" to Luffy. Anyone with decent reading comprehension can tell that Luffy was still weaker than Katakuri until the rooftop, even than a 100% serious Katakuri vs Rooftop Luffy would most likely be an extreme diff fight.


Zoro parrying Kaido and landing a clean shot means absolutely nothing when dealing with Katakuri.

He actively uses his FS constantly not just maybe when he’s drunk.

Katakuri is a speed type fighter who’s entire arsenal is meant to speedblitz not a brute force power type one like Kaido who has 2 fast moves he can only do so many times in short duration.

Katakuri has body morphing to amp his speed and dodge attacks with pinpoint alightment, Kaido chooses to tank 90% of attacks


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 17, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> The Luffy that failed to react to a Thunder Bagua from Kaido was the same Luffy that just thought Kaido may have killed his entire team and completely abandoned the plan to lay low. In order to use Future Sight you have to be calm. Luffy got blitzed because he wasn't using Future Sight, and he wasn't using Future Sight because he wasn't calm.


Luffy used FS and was still unable to fully dodge Thunder Bagua

Reactions: Like 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 17, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Luffy used FS and was still unable to fully dodge Thunder Bagua


And Katakuri would've dodged it via body morphing, y'know, the same way Aokiji couldn't move his body out of the way when WB stabbed him, but he could morph his body fast enough for it to go through him.


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 17, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> And Katakuri would've dodged it via body morphing, y'know, the same way Aokiji couldn't move his body out of the way when WB stabbed him, but he could morph his body fast enough for it to go through him.


That's some nice headcanon. Aokiji couldn't move his body out of the way because he can't fly...


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 17, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> That's some nice headcanon. Aokiji couldn't move his body out of the way because he can't fly...


So he couldn't body dodge but could dodge via body morphing?
Got it

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 17, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> So he couldn't body dodge but could dodge via body morphing?
> Got it


Yes, not due to one being faster than the other, but because he couldn't fly.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 17, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, not due to one being faster than the other, but because he couldn't fly.


Base Luffy was able to dodge one of Kaido's attacks midair. Could he fly? Or you believe a whole top tier Admiral isn't capable of slight aerial movement?
Aokiji simply couldn't move his body out of the way to dodge, nor form an ice barrier to block it or something. What he did do though, was body morphing, which is canonically faster than moving your entire body out of the way.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> People talk about Katas speed but forget that the same Luffy that reacted to Katakuri couldn't react to a thunder bagua from Kaido.


Emotions. When Katakuri was flustered from Luffy seeing his face and him eating donuts he got hit.

When Luffy fought Kaido he was mentally panicked at the thought his crew just died.

You must remain calm like Katakuri to maintain Future sight.


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> The Luffy that failed to react to a Thunder Bagua from Kaido was the same Luffy that just thought Kaido may have killed his entire team and completely abandoned the plan to lay low. In order to use Future Sight you have to be calm. Luffy got blitzed because he wasn't using Future Sight, and he wasn't using Future Sight because he wasn't calm.


Just saw this u said what I just posted


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## killfox (Sep 17, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Luffy used FS and was still unable to fully dodge Thunder Bagua


Luffy can’t shape change like Katakuri.


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 17, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Rooftop Luffy being faster than WCI Luffy doesn't mean he's even nearly as fast as a basic Snake Man punch, not to mention Culverin and Black Mamba(Gattling)
> So yeah, WCI Snake Man Luffy > Rooftop Luffy in speed
> 
> Zoro having an AP advantage of Katakuri is enough, but tryna push for superior speed and reaction over him too? Seems desperate


base luffy reacted to thunder bagua. g4 boundman couldnt. thats a huge difference


Vinsmoke31 said:


> Zoro is comparable to pre g4 luffy in speed.
> 
> He couldnt react to nerfed killer.
> 
> Kaido was a group fight, the sole focus wasnt on zoro.


thats pre rooftop


Strobacaxi said:


> Luffy used FS and was still unable to fully dodge Thunder Bagua


exactly, everyone go back to the panel. theres a panel of luffy realizing what was going to happen


Everyone remember. sulong inu and neko were4 struggling with Kaidou's wind blades. The same two that shit on YC3 Jack. Zoro reacts to it casually


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## The crazy hacker (Sep 17, 2022)

killfox said:


> fy seeing his face and him eating donuts he got hit.
> 
> When Luffy fought Kaido he was mentally panicked at the thought his crew just died.
> 
> You must remain calm like Katakuri to maintain Future sight.


Kaido noticed that Luffys reaction got faster when he dodged it on the RT so he couldn't pre-udon.

Reactions: Like 2


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 17, 2022)

xmysticgohanx said:


> base luffy reacted to thunder bagua. g4 boundman couldnt. thats a huge difference


Maybe Kaido decided to go harder, seeing as Luffy went harder


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 17, 2022)

The crazy hacker said:


> Kaido noticed that Luffys reaction got faster when he dodged it on the RT so he couldn't pre-udon.


Yes, the reaction that got faster because FS was used, unlike when he faced Kaido at Kuri.


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## Steven (Sep 17, 2022)

Ruffy didnt use FS against Kaido in their first fight.And in order to use FS you need to be calm yet Ruffy was pissed.On top of that Kaido was drunk,pissed and angry.

Zorro has no win-cons at all.What is he gonna do?Slicing Mochi until Zorro drops down when hes out of stamina?


Kata legit dodged a almost omnidirectional attack like its nothing.Zorro does not have such speed or the luxus to shapeshifting his body


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## bil02 (Sep 17, 2022)

How come Fs couldn't notice Or dodge Casear's gas
Why is Kata getting tagged by Oven? Even in a hallocunatic state, Fs and body morphing can still be used,shouldn't have been tagged at all if he is that incredible. 

How does Katakuri dodge Tastumaki,unlike Snakeman attacks,that's a literal tornado of windblades.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Germa 66 (Sep 17, 2022)

bil02 said:


> How come Fs couldn't notice Or dodge Casear's gas
> Why is Kata getting tagged by Oven? Even in a hallocunatic state, Fs and body morphing can still be used,shouldn't have been tagged at all if he is that incredible.
> 
> How does Katakuri dodge Tastumaki,unlike Snakeman attacks,that's a literal tornado of windblades.


So you acknowledge the fact that he is hallucinating but continue to try to lowball him?? Lmfao. What if he was seeing someone that left him emotionally unsettled, genius?

Even fodder like Black Maria had illusion mist, so I know Caesar got some fucked up shit

The same way he dodged Black Mamba.


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## Danyboy (Sep 17, 2022)

ACOC tatsumaki oneshots.

Reactions: Like 1


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## newnew2121 (Sep 17, 2022)

Defeating King doesn't = defeating Katakuri. Vastly different types of fighters. I honestly place Big Mom pirates as being above Beast Pirates also. Zoro probably does eke out a win but its gonna be extreme diff.


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## Oda Report (Sep 17, 2022)

Katà loses. . .


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## The crazy hacker (Sep 18, 2022)

killfox said:


> Emotions. When Katakuri was flustered from Luffy seeing his face and him eating donuts he got hit.
> 
> When Luffy fought Kaido he was mentally panicked at the thought his crew just died.
> 
> You must remain calm like Katakuri to maintain Future sight.





AnimePhanatic said:


> Yes, the reaction that got faster because FS was used, unlike when he faced Kaido at Kuri.


FS wouldn't have mattered since Luffy was blitzed by Kaido. Even if he saw the attack he didn't have the reactions pre-udon.

Kaido was too fast for pre-udon Luffy.


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