# The Greek Debt Shame Thread



## Kagekatsu (Jul 1, 2015)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33339363



> Europe
> Greece debt crisis: IMF payment missed as bailout expires
> 
> Greece has missed the deadline for a ?1.6bn (?1.1bn) payment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), hours after eurozone ministers refused to extend its bailout.
> ...



(Request merger of all Greek threads)


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## Mider T (Jul 1, 2015)

Just kick them out of the EU already.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2015)




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## Zaru (Jul 1, 2015)

This has the chance of ruining Greece for half a century or more while also dragging down the rest of Europe. And I don't know how it can be avoided.

Americans might feel that way about Puerto Rico soon.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2015)

You should just let Greece fucking choke on their own vomit. That's what should have happened. The EU's not there to keep their sorry asses afloat.


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## Utopia Realm (Jul 1, 2015)

Well, now to see the fallout.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2015)

Russia bails them out and owns you all.


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## Destroyer of Kittens (Jul 1, 2015)

Russia bails Greece out and take Greece into their orbit...  6 months later they offer their unconditional surrender to Ukraine.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 1, 2015)

pay denbts naw.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 1, 2015)

so what happens now people with more economic experience than I?


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## ElAngelo (Jul 1, 2015)

I still don't think that the EU is going to drop them.


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## Pliskin (Jul 1, 2015)

ElAngelo said:


> I still don't think that the EU is going to drop them.



Fun fact: We can't. Technically we would need their vote to change the contracts to throw them out. And nobody wants them out anyway (nobody in power that is)


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2015)

Zaru said:


> This has the chance of ruining Greece for half a century or more while also dragging down the rest of Europe. And I don't know how it can be avoided.
> 
> Americans might feel that way about Puerto Rico soon.


Our options with Puerto Rico are much simpler. It really wouldn't be much of a thing to just literally pay off Puerto Rico's debt.

70 something billion is a pittance to the US.

The way it can be avoided is just give Greece the fucking money and stop fucking their economy up with shitty austerity measures which make it so they take in even less tax revenue and are even less able to pay their debts.

Christ, IMF is really fucking bad at what they do.

Unless what their plan is is to make countries shit so that they are ripe for corporate exploitation down the road in which case they're very good at that.


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## Zaru (Jul 1, 2015)

Well, think about the IMF what you want, but this is the first time a developed nation broke down under its rules. 



Sunuvmann said:


> Our options with Puerto Rico are much simpler. It really wouldn't be much of a thing to just literally pay off Puerto Rico's debt.
> 
> 70 something billion is a pittance to the US.


It's not that simple, Sunny. Even if you could theoretically pay that debt for them fully, good luck getting that motion through house/congress/government. 

Plus, their debt is to the municipal bond market. It was considered safe until recently, but as cities like Detroit and other places went bankrupt, the trust was waning.
This is a quadruple Detroit, and we know what happened with Detroit. Lots of people are financially involved with this, and it's going to make things worse for everyone else involved.

Might not be such a huge deal as Greece turned out to be for us, but I sincerely doubt you'll get an easy way out.


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 1, 2015)

Will Greece leaving EU change anything financially?


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2015)

Zaru said:


> Well, think about the IMF what you want, but this is the first time a developed nation broke down under its rules.


Yeah, but all other IMF nations were able to devalue their currency.

Greece? They're rather incompetently trying to make a national system work with a semi-federal system.



> It's not that simple, Sunny. Even if you could theoretically pay that debt for them fully, good luck getting that motion through house/congress/government.
> 
> Plus, their debt is to the municipal bond market. It was considered safe until recently, but as cities like Detroit and other places went bankrupt, the trust was waning.
> This is a quadruple Detroit, and we know what happened with Detroit. Lots of people are financially involved with this, and it's going to make things worse for everyone else involved.
> ...


Fair enough. But if I recall correctly, there's legal framework by which they could get bankruptcy protection with a small legislative change.


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## Hozukimaru (Jul 1, 2015)

Pliskin said:


> And nobody wants them out anyway (nobody in power that is)


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## Pliskin (Jul 1, 2015)

His wheelchair is not the Iron Throne, don't overrate his influence. He is just playing his part as the bad cop. If he truly would oppose Merkel, he would loose his head.


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## Saishin (Jul 1, 2015)

If Greece exits the Euro or the EU will be a problem for Europe ,the geo-political role of Greece in that area is relevant if the country will be helped by Russia for sure Putin thorugh Greece may cast Russian influence in the region and for Europe could be a trouble.They may exit the euro but let them stay inside the EU and I think the majority of the Greek know that and will vote YES imo.


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## Son of Goku (Jul 1, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> The way it can be avoided is just give Greece the fucking money and stop fucking their economy up with shitty austerity measures which make it so they take in even less tax revenue and are even less able to pay their debts.
> 
> Christ, IMF is really fucking bad at what they do.
> 
> Unless what their plan is is to make countries shit so that they are ripe for corporate exploitation down the road in which case they're very good at that.



I actually agree with all you say. Too bad I can't rep, cause I already negged you for your pro ISIS post 10min ago.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I actually agree with all you say. Too bad I can't rep, cause I already negged you for your pro ISIS post 10min ago.


Didn't notice because I have you on ignore list since you tend to neg when people disagree with you like a bratty little child.


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## The Faceless Man (Jul 1, 2015)

They need to get out of EU and escape the Germany and friends called EU raping their ass.

EU is not democracy or helping people, its some countries that suck dry countries from the EAST.

I hope that many others like Austria and UK leaves EU and it becomes a trend to solve this evil root and start something new cuz its not working out.

At least not for the EAST.


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## The Faceless Man (Jul 1, 2015)

Saishin said:


> If Greece exits the Euro or the EU will be a problem for Europe ,the geo-political role of Greece in that area is relevant if the country will be helped by Russia for sure Putin thorugh Greece may cast Russian influence in the region and for Europe could be a trouble.They may exit the euro but let them stay inside the EU and I think the majority of the Greek know that and will vote YES imo.



No bro it will be max on NO.

Greece is tired of anal rape from Germany. Why do you think people voted extreme left ?
For fun and trust ?


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## Saishin (Jul 1, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> No bro it will be max on NO.
> 
> Greece is tired of anal rape from Germany. Why do you think people voted extreme left ?
> For fun and trust ?


I heard thet the YES has the majority but today I saw at the news that the NO has the majority oh well we'll see.


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## Vandal Savage (Jul 1, 2015)

No surprises. Everything I've read says Greece may be so fucked that it could last long enough for a lifetime barring a miracle. Agreed with Sunny that they need to stop the austerity measures because it's not showing any results whatsoever. It's just further perpetuates their economic downward spiral and makes it harder to escape from.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 1, 2015)

SHAME


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## Son of Goku (Jul 1, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Didn't notice because I have you on ignore list since you tend to neg when people disagree with you like a bratty little child.



Would that I could, but it's impossible. I have to save my negs for special posts, that I deem most deserving. 



Megaharrison said:


> SHAME



Why is Greece represented by a hottie and Germany and Israel by two old hags? Seems unrealistic.


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## lucky (Jul 1, 2015)

ThunderCunt said:


> Will Greece leaving EU change anything financially?



If Greece defaults all of its creditors (other EU countries mostly) may lose all of the money they lent.  

Also will let other countries know that it's possible to leave the Euro.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jul 1, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Our options with Puerto Rico are much simpler. It really wouldn't be much of a thing to just literally pay off Puerto Rico's debt.
> 
> 70 something billion is a pittance to the US.
> 
> ...



When are they gonna learn that austerity doesn't work when you're trying to get a country out of depression?

Economy has a balance. You can't just go full austerity or full govenment spending. You have to find the sweet spot where the economy works.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2015)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> When are they gonna learn that austerity doesn't work when you're trying to get a country out of depression?
> 
> Economy has a balance. You can't just go full austerity or full govenment spending. You have to find the sweet spot where the economy works.


What I've read is the IMF's usual remedy is:

1 part currency devaluation (i.e. print more money so the currency is worth less and with it the international debt is lessened) 

and 1 part austerity because the former while helping with economic growth (weaker currency = more exports) causes inflation.

The problem with that plan is the two forces cancel each other out to zero growth and the country is left basically stagnant until the austerity stops. And the country is in shit shape all the while because they're basically time-locked to the recession/depression they experienced because of said financial crisis. They only ever recover when unemployment forces down the price of labor such that they are competitive on a global market, nevermind the human suffering.

In Greece's case, they can't do the former (devaluation) and the Troika are forcing the latter and so instead of 0 growth, you get negative. Which is fucking retarded. Because if the country isn't fucking growing, then guess what, WHERE THE FUCK IS REVENUE GOING TO COME FROM???

A much better plan would be to basically offer a bankruptcy protection loan. Cover the budget deficit plus however much on the top for a minor stimulus program and keep the spending levels at the same (plus said stimulus) for the next, 2-3 years until there's sufficient growth that the deficit becomes a small surplus. Then, put the net cost on their tab as a 30 year bond.


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 1, 2015)

Or just fucking nationalize all of Greece's debt and be a fucking United Europe.


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## wibisana (Jul 1, 2015)

or sell Greece to Turks
they want her back


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## dr_shadow (Jul 2, 2015)

ThunderCunt said:


> Will Greece leaving EU change anything financially?



A lot of money would suddenly disappear.

It's possible to use debt as a kind of meta-currency. If I lend you 100 euros in cash, then you can write me a note with your signature that says "I promise to repay 100 Euros to the holder of this note at such-and-such a date".

If I don't have the patience to wait until you actually repay the 100 Euros to ME, then what I can do is use the debt note as payment when I buy something, since you wrote that you will pay 100 to WHOEVER holds the note, not just me. Effectively, the note promising payment of 100 euros is equivalent to a 100 euro bill.

People use this way of payment all the time, and such debt notes are properly called "bonds".

The problem is that using bonds as payment assumes that AT SOME POINT the ACTUAL 100 Euros will be repaid to the final holder of the note. If that doesn't happen, then everyone who has used the debt note to pay for anything will have essentially gotten stuff for free. Anyone who has sold anything in exchange for a bad debt note will feel swindled.

What will happen is that that all debt notes issued by the Greek government to other countries will become null and void, and therefore all business relationships built on Greek notes will suddenly become really awkward when billions of euros turn out to suddenly be non-existant.


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## blueblip (Jul 2, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> A lot of money would suddenly disappear.
> 
> It's possible to use debt as a kind of meta-currency. If I lend you 100 euros in cash, then you can write me a note with your signature that says "I promise to repay 100 Euros to the holder of this note at such-and-such a date".
> 
> ...


It's worth pointing out that when things started going downhill in 2010, most people who held Greek bonds sold them off pretty quickly. So there is likely not going to THAT much of an impact on the EU if Greece exits. But because economics is economics, until that happens, we can never know for sure whether there are many more, smaller connections to the larger economy that might cause extensive harm.

Honestly, though, Greece's problems are not going to be solved by a simple infusion of cash. The problems with the economy, like with any other economic crisis, is that they are a set of compounded problems built up over years and years of bad money management.

Greece's big "dumb" move was hosting the Olympics back in 2004. We're talking about $14 billion in losses. The cost of hosting to games was such a burden on the country, it wasn't able to stabilise itself by the time of the global crash in 2008. The crash was basically the 10 ton weight that shattered the already fragile Greek camel's economic back.

In a nutshell, writing off Greece's debt and/or simply pooling together a fuckton of cash to pay off Greece's debt isn't going to solve anything because Greek leadership has shown time and again that they are terrible at managing the economy. Tsipras is proving he's no exception, sadly. There needs to be a lot of internal reform (cracking down on corruption, etc.) and some kind of competent leadership to solve this problem.


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## Han Solo (Jul 2, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/02/imf-greece-needs-extra-50bn-euros#comments



> The International Monetary Fund has electrified the referendum debate in Greece after it conceded that the crisis-ridden country needs up to ?60bn (?42bn) of extra funds over the next three years and large-scale debt relief to create ?a breathing space? and stabilise the economy.
> 
> With days to go before Sunday?s knife-edge referendum that the country?s creditors have cast as a vote on whether it wants to keep the euro, the IMF revealed a deep split with Europe as it warned that Greece?s debts were ?unsustainable?.
> 
> ...



Haha, the IMF is basically straight up admitting that the position of troika is much more to do with politics than economics, and that Varoufakis has been right all this time.


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jul 4, 2015)

I'm really not sure why the Greek view their debtors as "evil". What is exactly wrong about wanting your money back? What is wrong about giving someone money and you gave him some years ago and he fucked it up and lost it all ... anyways; they are all fucked now and they deserve it. The EU should never have bailed Greece in the first place and the Greek should learn a bit more about finance I guess.


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## blueblip (Jul 4, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> I'm really not sure why the Greek view their debtors as "evil". What is exactly wrong about wanting your money back? What is wrong about giving someone money and you gave him some years ago and he fucked it up and lost it all ... anyways; they are all fucked now and they deserve it. The EU should never have bailed Greece in the first place and the Greek should learn a bit more about finance I guess.


The current Greek government is led by a far left party that views big companies/banks/etc as evil.


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jul 4, 2015)

blueblip said:


> The current Greek government is led by a far left party that views big companies/banks/etc as evil.



I think they just hate other advanced European nations because they feel inferior to them (which they are).


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## Nemesis (Jul 4, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> I'm really not sure why the Greek view their debtors as "evil". What is exactly wrong about wanting your money back? What is wrong about giving someone money and you gave him some years ago and he fucked it up and lost it all ... anyways; they are all fucked now and they deserve it. The EU should never have bailed Greece in the first place and the Greek should learn a bit more about finance I guess.



Because sometimes you need to go "Yeah you owe us money, but you know what.  We see you're having issues so let's lessen the burdern.  Say pay your installments in smaller doses but have it spread out a bit longer.  That way we still get our money and you're not fucked."

Instead of "MONEY NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW! WE DO NOT CARE THAT IT WILL FUCK OVER YOUR PEOPLE GIVE US MONEY NOW!"


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## ExoSkel (Jul 4, 2015)

I love how Greeks are blaming this entirely on the EU but themselves. They squandered money, the entire country squandered their money like some drunken celebrity hosting a party. 

This is what happens to countries that are in mega debt where their economy is mostly centered around tourism.


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jul 5, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Because sometimes you need to go "Yeah you owe us money, but you know what.  We see you're having issues so let's lessen the burdern.  Say pay your installments in smaller doses but have it spread out a bit longer.  That way we still get our money and you're not fucked."
> 
> Instead of "MONEY NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW! WE DO NOT CARE THAT IT WILL FUCK OVER YOUR PEOPLE GIVE US MONEY NOW!"



Are you insane? First the debt payments are highly deferred and the dates of the payments are in agreements. The debtors don't want their money now, they want a very tiny portion of it on a date that has been agreed upon earlier. The debtors didn't just start asking for their money of the blues. Second thing, the money has been given to Greece as a second chance because they fucked up their economy and the EU was there to help. You don't get third chances. That bail money should have been invested to stabilize Greece while paying the very deferred debt payments.  The EU could have simply not given them any bail and instead used their money for their own good but instead they chose to help Greece (which was a big mistake).


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## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> Are you insane? First the debt payments are highly deferred and the dates of the payments are in agreements. The debtors don't want their money now, they want a very tiny portion of it on a date that has been agreed upon earlier. The debtors didn't just start asking for their money of the blues. Second thing, the money has been given to Greece as a second chance because they fucked up their economy and the EU was there to help. You don't get third chances. That bail money should have been invested to stabilize Greece while paying the very deferred debt payments.  The EU could have simply not given them any bail and instead used their money for their own good but instead they chose to help Greece (which was a big mistake).



Fix the economy how?  The austerity shoved on Greece destroyed the economy.  You can't go out and say "sack everyone, cut all services." without some kind of backup.  You can't fix an economy with austerity that has caused 21%+ overall unemployment with nearly 60% Youth unemployment.  It just doesn't work.

And then at the same time call Greeks lazy (Longest working hours and yes do work.), early retiring (hint the average retirement in Greece before the collapse was 61 about 6 months less than Germany), scrounges.  When most Greeks just wanted to get on with their lives.

Well guess what.  Greek elderly need pensions, pensions need to come from government sources since you can never trust private organizations on welfare ever and need it at a level where they can live a first world standard of living.  Then we have the disabled.  They need money to basically survive.  Then the unemployed need enough to live on especially since there are no jobs out there for Greeks since the Austerity fucked up Greek jobs.  Then public workers, most of which do a decent job, they need to be paid a decent wage (Police, hospital workers, transport (UK has shown privitzation sucks compared to the nationalized integrated systems in most of europe).  

Last of which is the military.  Which when living next to Turkey who has an insane government at times, likes to violate airspaces of their neighbors and has multiple casus bellis on Greece regarding legal Greek waters.


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jul 5, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Fix the economy how?  The austerity shoved on Greece destroyed the economy.  You can't go out and say "sack everyone, cut all services." without some kind of backup.  You can't fix an economy with austerity that has caused 21%+ overall unemployment with nearly 60% Youth unemployment.  It just doesn't work.
> 
> And then at the same time call Greeks lazy (Longest working hours and yes do work.), early retiring (hint the average retirement in Greece before the collapse was 61 about 6 months less than Germany), scrounges.  When most Greeks just wanted to get on with their lives.
> 
> ...



Stabilize the economy. The economy was fucked by the government that went broke in the first place, the bail out was to allow for a smooth transmission for a lower GDP economy. It will stabilize under a lower living standard which is normal when you lost so much money. Greece should have just shift to lower GDP per capita economy. Even now it's GDP per capita is more than twice that of Turkey and way ahead of Poland and eastern Europe (many of those use Euro as currency). Greece spent money it didn't have, it's lucky it had a bail out to try and manage stuff because it was literally broke; not only it couldn't pay pensions or couldn't "improve the economy" it couldn't pay shit not even salaries not nothing. The bail out was there to give space for the Greek to fix things and they fucked it up and fast forward where did that money go? Why are they broke again? Same place because the money isn't theirs, fuck we spent it and we ain't gonna pay it back. Fuck you evil debtor, you should go and kill yourself for giving us money.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 5, 2015)

Judgment Day today...

I think I'd rather they leave the Euro for now and then come back when they've got their house in order.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 5, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> Even now it's GDP per capita is more than twice that of Turkey and way ahead of Poland and eastern Europe (many of those use Euro as currency).



As a matter of fact the only Eastern European countries that use the Euro are Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia. 

Most of them still use their traditional currency, even the relatively developed ones like Poland and the Czech Republic.


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## Saishin (Jul 5, 2015)

> *Greeks brace themselves for Referendum Day in the 'Neighbourhood of the Gods'
> *
> 
> As Greeks go to the polls, Colin Freeman speaks to Athenians about their feelings for the future
> ...


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## Mizura (Jul 5, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> Judgment Day today...
> 
> I think I'd rather they leave the Euro for now and then come back when they've got their house in order.


Yeah. Gaining control of your currency value is actually a plus in such situation: the Greeks will have to form their own independent currency again, but they'd be able to devaluate it by a lot, which in turn will allow them to boost things like tourism (cheaper to travel there) and export.


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## Son of Goku (Jul 5, 2015)

Mizura said:


> Yeah. Gaining control of your currency value is actually a plus in such situation: the Greeks will have to form their own independent currency again, but they'd be able to devaluate it by a lot, which in turn will allow them to boost things like tourism (cheaper to travel there)* and export.*



Which they hardly have though. They are highly dependent on imports, which will become much more expensive with a new highly devaluated currency. 

But staying in the Euro won't solve anything either, since the institutions seem to be hell-bent on destroying Greece rather than boosting its economy.


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## Mizura (Jul 5, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Which they hardly have though. They are highly dependent on imports, which will become much more expensive with a new highly devaluated currency.
> 
> But staying in the Euro won't solve anything either, since the institutions seem to be hellbent on destroying Greece rather than boosting it's economy.


Maybe they Will be in a better position to export once everything they produce is dirt cheap compared to other countries? That said, I admit I don't know what makes up the Greek economy.


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## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> Stabilize the economy. The economy was fucked by the government that went broke in the first place, the bail out was to allow for a smooth transmission for a lower GDP economy. It will stabilize under a lower living standard which is normal when you lost so much money. Greece should have just shift to lower GDP per capita economy. Even now it's GDP per capita is more than twice that of Turkey and way ahead of Poland and eastern Europe (many of those use Euro as currency). Greece spent money it didn't have, it's lucky it had a bail out to try and manage stuff because it was literally broke; not only it couldn't pay pensions or couldn't "improve the economy" it couldn't pay shit not even salaries not nothing. The bail out was there to give space for the Greek to fix things and they fucked it up and fast forward where did that money go? Why are they broke again? Same place because the money isn't theirs, fuck we spent it and we ain't gonna pay it back. Fuck you evil debtor, you should go and kill yourself for giving us money.



You can't stabalize when you're being fucked over with austerity.  It simply does NOT work.  You stabalize through investing which is what is needed.  But what can not happen is any more mass privatization of necessary public welfare.


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## Son of Goku (Jul 5, 2015)

Mizura said:


> Maybe they Will be in a better position to export once everything they produce is dirt cheap compared to other countries? That said, I admit I don't know what makes up the Greek economy.



AFAIK there isn't much to export, at least not nearly enough. But the hope would be that a cheap currency invites more investments into the economy, leading to more production, leading to more exports. But this will take time, until than they'll have to suffer, worse than they already have.


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## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2015)

No exit polls for this referendum but phone calls to potential voters put no at 51%

Note this is the same type of poling that had Lab/cons at same point in UK elections so take with very large pinch of salt.


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## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

Seems like "no" is winning.

I actually hope they leave euro, shoulder the chaos and suffering for the whatever time it takes, and then slowly rebuild with more sustainable foundation than just eternally cutting.

Plus I'm curious to see the actual effects for the rest of the eurozone. So much has been spoken about a potential euro exit as if it was the worst thing ever - but totally not harmful at all. Let's see where this takes us, if anywhere.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 5, 2015)

The end is near...


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## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

I'm surprised OXI wins this clearly, the polls said it would be closer. Then again, there was significant amount of those yet uncertain. Perhaps they fell to the OXI side.


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## Jersey Shore Jesus (Jul 5, 2015)

I hope they vote No. Greece is so close to freedom and not being weighted down by the Rothschild's world bank debt system.


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jul 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Seems like "no" is winning.
> 
> I actually hope they leave euro, shoulder the chaos and suffering for the whatever time it takes, and then slowly rebuild with more sustainable foundation than just eternally cutting.
> 
> Plus I'm curious to see the actual effects for the rest of the eurozone. So much has been spoken about a potential euro exit as if it was the worst thing ever - but totally not harmful at all. Let's see where this takes us, if anywhere.



I imagine that the Euro would be extremely strong against the Greek currency if they were dropped from the Eurozone. It would make international trade hard, which is a huge problem when they rely so much on imports in the first place. I can easily see this plunging into a third world situation with basic needs such as medical supplies and food being critically short.


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## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> I imagine that the Euro would be extremely strong against the Greek currency if they were dropped from the Eurozone. It would make international trade hard, which is a huge problem when they rely so much on imports in the first place. I can easily see this plunging into a third world situation with basic needs such as medical supplies and food being critically short.




I can't pretend I'd know much about economics and even less about Greece's economy, so can't argue against.

Anyway, what is certain is that they have some really rough times ahead, the question is how long it lasts and how they rise from it.

In the meantime it's curious to see which of our politicians and "experts" are revealed as fools, liars or Cassandra Truths. Bring on the Grexit and the Doomsday.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 5, 2015)

If they leave the EU I guess they need to warm up to Turkey for trade.

Ottoman century every century. ^^


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jul 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> I can't pretend I'd know much about economics and even less about Greece's economy, so can't argue against.
> 
> Anyway, what is certain is that they have some really rough times ahead, the question is how long it lasts and how they rise from it.
> 
> In the meantime it's curious to see which of our politicians and "experts" are revealed as fools, liars or Cassandra Truths. Bring on the Grexit and the Doomsday.



Well, Greece imports half it's food and tons of other things because of the general lack of pretty much anything to work with. Medical supplies are a major thing they import too, which are getting cut off. Their credit situation puts them in a situation where it could become a failed state.

This probably will be a bad omen for Spain and Italy.


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## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

Surprising to hear they import their food, I had always imagined them as a food producer. Must be because of all those Greek fruits in the grocery stores.


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## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Surprising to hear they import their food, I had always imagined them as a food producer. Must be because of all those Greek fruits in the grocery stores.



There is very little farmland that can produce the meats and certain foods.  Greece is a very mountainous country as well with two major cities (Athens and Thessaloniki).

Well a so call close call has now become a guaranteed landslide more or less.  With this and failure of polls on UK election I think we can just throw out all polls now.


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## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

So, if all hell breaks loose in Greece, what becomes of the African refugees there? Will the Greeks just drive them away? 



Nemesis said:


> There is very little farmland that can produce the meats and certain foods.  Greece is a very mountainous country as well with two major cities (Athens and Thessaloniki).




Right...

And to think people here would want Finland to quit producing domestic food because it's expensive. Right, what of they day the world politics and/or our economy changes to the point we can no longer buy that cheap food from abroad? At least some domestic production should be maintained, but people can only think 5 minutes into the future.



Nemesis said:


> Well a so call close call has now become a guaranteed landslide more or less.  With this and failure of polls on UK election I think we can just throw out all polls now.




Yeah, polls were useless in both cases.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Jul 5, 2015)




----------



## Leeroy Jenkins (Jul 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Right...
> 
> And to think people here would want Finland to quit producing domestic food because it's expensive. Right, what of they day the world politics and/or our economy changes to the point we can no longer buy that cheap food from abroad? At least some domestic production should be maintained, but people can only think 5 minutes into the future.



International aid would likely be given and I'm sure the US could be lobbied to give Greece some short term infusions of cash.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> International aid would likely be given and I'm sure the US could be lobbied to give Greece some short term infusions of cash.




Yeah, I can see us giving them aid a la aiding a country hit by any other kind of catastrophe.

I wonder if the EU bigwigs are still fixated on keeping Greece in euro. There has been increasing amount of voices who demand to let this ship sink and not drag the rest with it. But I doubt it's over so easily. They will still try to negotiate Greece to take more loan to pay old loan (with proper austerity strings attached), and the carnival continues. At this point both approaches could be bad for the unity of the eurozone.


----------



## Zyrax (Jul 5, 2015)

>Dr germany,im EU
>My economic plan talks about dr germany and his friends,but only one of you
>TELL ME ABOUT GREECE,WHY DOESN'T HE PAY THE DENBTS
>HE DIDNT PAY SO GOOD
>A LOT OF LOYALTY FOR A HIRED PUBLIC SECTOR WORKER
>Perhaps he is wondering why bailout a country before letting it default?
>Who are you?
>It doesn't matter who I am,all that matters is my debt
>Noone cared who I was untill I put on the euro
>Was being indebted part of your plan?
>of course.
>If I cut you off of Eurozone,will you die?
>It would be extremely painful
>you've got a big debt
>for EU
>Dr germany rejected our offer in favor of yours.We want to find out what he gave you
>Well congratulations,you managed to sign a memorandum
>what's the next step of your master plan?
>CRASHING THIS UNION
>WITH NO SURVIVORS


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

^ Why can't I rep you?!


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2015)

ND leader Samaras just resigned.  The cheers at the square deafened when it came out.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

If EU agrees to give more money to Greece after this, all other troubled countries are going to use the same strategy and demand easing of austerity and forgivance of their loans. Anti-EU folks are going to use it to ridicule euro and its spineless, toothless bosses and their hollow threats - not to mention criticize tax payer money being used to support a country that behaves like this.

If Greece leaves and somehow survives, anti-EU folks are going to use it as a proof that leaving euro isn't the end of the world and indeed a viable alternativity.

So, what Merkel & gang should want is Greece to leave and sink as it leaves? Scaring all the others into obedience?


----------



## Zaru (Jul 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> If EU agrees to give more money to Greece after this, all other troubled countries are going to use the same strategy and demand easing of austerity and forgivance of their loans. Anti-EU folks are going to use it to ridicule euro and its spineless, toothless bosses and their hollow threats - not to mention criticize tax payer money being used to support a country that behaves like this.
> 
> If Greece leaves and somehow survives, anti-EU folks are going to use it as a proof that leaving euro isn't the end of the world and indeed a viable alternativity.
> 
> So, what Merkel & gang should want is Greece to leave and sink as it leaves? Scaring all the others into obedience?



Yeah sadly this whole thing isn't just about Greece but the precedent Greece can set


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2015)

It was essentially vote no and try to get lube from the anal rape or vote yes and they go in dry.


The IMF of all people have come out and said that the austerity can't come on and europe needs to help put greece into recovery.  That means lowering the repayments on the loans with an extended grace period + end of austerity (how can a 70 year old survive on their pensions cut in half.. Hint they can't) + investment.  Not cut everything, if someone ends up on street cause of it tough and pay money you don't have now.  The latter just doesn't work.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 5, 2015)

I'm getting pretty tired of your shit Greece...

Other prudent and sagacious Eurozone and EU countries shouldn't have to inject more money into a aspiring third world country because Germans are economically illiterate and Greeks want their cake to eat.

But of course if Greece does leave the Eurozone (never the EU), then it falls apart with other countries such as Spain and Italy following their lead and re-establishing their original currencies. And Germany and France and other Euro leaders don't want that to happen, even though it's the smartest action to take.

They'd rather inflict more savage austerity on the Greeks to keep the Euro dream alive then accept reality. Everyone and his mother could see the gaping holes in the Euro from the start but these were ignored, such as waving Greece into it in the first place even though they didn't meet the qualifications to do so.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

MbS said:


> They'd rather inflict more savage austerity on the Greeks to keep the Euro dream alive then accept reality. Everyone and his mother could see the gaping holes in the Euro from the start but these were ignored, such as waving Greece into it in the first place even though they didn't meet the qualifications to do so.




Well it was always an ideological project and not an economical one. The shared currency, I mean, not the shared markets and such.

And the qualifications to join any of EU/Euro have never been too strict, unless you're Turkey of course.


----------



## Zyrax (Jul 5, 2015)

MbS said:


> I'm getting pretty tired of your shit Greece...
> 
> Other prudent and sagacious Eurozone and EU countries shouldn't have to inject more money into a aspiring third world country because Germans are economically illiterate and Greeks want their cake to eat.
> 
> ...


Germany and France are doing what they see as The Only way for Europe to not fall behind America and Asia Economicly wise(Since they already fall behind them Politically and Military wise)


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 5, 2015)

Caught between a rock and a hard place, aren't we? We have to look at the decisions that will be taken by the ECB and Europe. 

Junker has already started talking to Euro leaders and high-ranking Euro officials. Junker, Draghi, Tusk and Dijsselbloem will hold a teleconfernece tomorrow morning. After that there will be a Euro-Working Group. On Tuesday there's going to be a Eurogroup and a Euro summit in the afternoon.

The stance of the ECB depends on how the negotiations will go (and allow me to not be very optimistic, based on how the negotiations have gone so far). 

If the negotiations go well, we'll have a deal very soon. Our request for an EMS bailout will be accepted, the deposits level will start going up again and the ECB will provide liquidity to Greek banks by raising the ELA cap.

In the other case the ECB won't save the Greek banks. It might even partly drain what little liquidity they have left by raising the haircuts on govt-guaranteed bonds or govt-debt held by Greek banks that they use as collateral. If we miss the debt payment to the ECB on July 20th they might refuse to accept such collateral entirely or stop the ELA and demand all its money back, leading Greek banks to bankruptcy.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jul 5, 2015)

Please god if you ever watched over this people let them go out of EU and find their own way.

Havent they suffered enough rape from Germany and friends ?

Also please make UK and Austria leave EU.

Maybe we can get rid of this asshole nation named EU that is sucking the life out of EAST EUROPE.

I mean we have retarded Russia do we really need more punishment.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

Afaik Argentina is still alive and people aren't eating their babies to survive, so perhaps Greece could survive as well. Though Argentina has wholly different domestic production.

Oh well. Whatever happens, a part of me will always be happy that some nations still have the backbone and the balls to pull off stunts like this. Our meek politicians wouldn't even dream of standing up to EU and all the cool kids into whose table they want.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

So according to Tsipras this forces the lenders to think of cutting Greece's debt.

Who does this guy imagine himself to be when he thinks he can force EU into this or that? At best he can force them to give up on Greece.

The OXI voters dont seem to have really understood what they ultimately decided about. I wonder what happens if and when they realize this drove Greece out of euro.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jul 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> So according to Tsipras this forces the lenders to think of cutting Greece's debt.
> 
> Who does this guy imagine himself to be when he thinks he can force EU into this or that? At best he can force them to give up on Greece.
> 
> The OXI voters dont seem to have really what they ultimately decided about. I wonder what happens if and when they realize this drove Greece out of euro.



He wants out of EU but he doesn't want to say that straightforward.

The only way for Greece to survive is go back to its basic foundation, try to get a better relation with Turkey and Hungary.

There are others who would really help them with exports etc.

But its time to go back to dhrama.
Austerity would only create a civil war or even more chaos and poor people.

It's time to start from 0 and they have ways to start all over again.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 5, 2015)

>Greece defaults
>Economy in shambles
>Russia offers greece a hand
>But only in exchange for some of them sweet strategical military positions
>the us freak
>Greece has no option
>WWIII ensues

Thanks for playing


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jul 5, 2015)

If Greece manages to get out and stabilize alot of other countries will follow.

And Germany and friends will have to rape each other for money.

In 10-15 years we could get rid of this fuckers that ruin everything into the ground.


----------



## Zaru (Jul 5, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> If Greece manages to get out and stabilize alot of other countries will follow.
> 
> And Germany and friends will have to rape each other for money.
> 
> In 10-15 years we could get rid of this fuckers that ruin everything into the ground.



What are you even talking about

Germany did well before the Euro, it did well during the Euro, and most likely will do well after the Euro, at least as far as the influence of the currency itself is concerned


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> If Greece manages to get out and stabilize alot of other countries will follow.




I'm not even sure of which they fear more - that Greece stays and continues to demand more money or that it leaves and manages to get back on its feet without euro.



Zaru said:


> What are you even talking about
> 
> Germany did well before the Euro, it did well during the Euro, and most likely will do well after the Euro, at least as far as the influence of the currency itself is concerned




Germany will continue to prosper without euro. It's EU that's good for your econony, while euro is just a miserable attempt to try to involve political idealism in hard economics.


----------



## Raiden (Jul 5, 2015)

Russia might offer some kind of bailout plan. Good fucking job guys.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 5, 2015)

Russia can't offer anything with their economy going down hill due to low energy costs + sanctions.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 5, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Russia can't offer anything with their economy going down hill due to low energy costs + sanctions.




Speaking of which,  where does Greece get its energy?


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jul 5, 2015)

Zaru said:


> What are you even talking about
> 
> Germany did well before the Euro, it did well during the Euro, and most likely will do well after the Euro, at least as far as the influence of the currency itself is concerned



I'm talking about ending the EU.

The end of rape from Germany and friends.
Not suffering from their influence like EAST EUROPE does.

They can live good even if EU fails, I know that, the important part is not letting them ruin other countries for their own gains.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Jul 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Well it was always an ideological project and not an economical one. The shared currency, I mean, not the shared markets and such.
> 
> And the qualifications to join any of EU/Euro have never been too strict, unless you're Turkey of course.



I've always agreed with the ideology, the problem is when someone thought the ideology had to be associated with some austerity ideology. And suddenly you have to be conservative if you want to stay in the Euro zone.

And that shit only works if you assume austerity is the ideal economic model 100% of the time, which is not true.

That's more of an issue of political myopia than anything.


----------



## dr_shadow (Jul 5, 2015)

If the EU falls apart then this century really belongs to China, India, the United States, Brazil and Russia. Just eject France and Britain from the Security Council and give their seats to Modi and Rousseff.


----------



## armorknight (Jul 5, 2015)

The following quote by Robert Louis Stevenson prefectly describes this situation.

"Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences."

As I've said before, this whole thing has shown how farcical the eurozone and the EU really are. The promise of utopia given by monolithic supranational entities has turned into the same old same old. The big guys screw over the small guys. Greece should get out completely and focus on rebuilding. There will be short-term pain, but the long-term gains are worth it for more than just economic reasons.


----------



## Magic (Jul 5, 2015)

Zaru said:


> This has the chance of ruining Greece for half a century or more while also dragging down the rest of Europe. And I don't know how it can be avoided.
> 
> Americans might feel that way about* Puerto Rico soon.*


uh say what lol?


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 5, 2015)

Actually, the small guys desperate to belong to the big guys club for which they were ill prepared, contracted the help of a third party big guy to do highly questionable if not ilegal moves to get their ass on a table for which they were not equiped to be in, and when that third party big guy crashed their entire economy thanks to said big guy's goverment complete shitting on their own regulations, decided to go on a six year stand off with the other guys depending on the small guy that carry the big guy share all guys were paying for.

Now the big guys and small guys are screwing each other over, the big guy not being able to keep bailing the little  guy out because the big guy's kids won't take him seriously and keep him in power if he keeps bailing the little guy out at the expense of their own food, and the little guy is throwing all of the big guy's shit out of the window while driving the thirty party jealous by flirting with his bitch ex wife, and if anyone tells him to fuck off and die, he'll be sure to pass them on the hundreds of thousands crabs he's got from the even crazier neighbors from down the street


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 5, 2015)

Bannai said:


> It worked for quite a few eastern European countries
> 
> even Greece had shown improvement before Syriza came into power



Do mean the massive rise of their debt or rather the massive 25% drop in their economy?


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 6, 2015)

Bannai said:


> It worked for quite a few eastern European countries
> 
> even Greece had shown improvement before Syriza came into power



It shew a very minor blip that all economists knew was not going to last.  IMF even said that if Greece had done everything right since the start of the year it would still need to have the loans more or less having a 20 year repayment halt + more money put into the country to build it up.


----------



## Jeαnne (Jul 6, 2015)

Banhammer said:


> >Greece defaults
> >Economy in shambles
> >Russia offers greece a hand
> >But only in exchange for some of them sweet strategical military positions
> ...


shit is going down


----------



## stream (Jul 6, 2015)

Looks like the Greeks chose the default option


----------



## Saishin (Jul 6, 2015)

It's NOOOOOOOOOOO goodbye Euro everybody returns to their own currency


----------



## Zyrax (Jul 6, 2015)

The Fourth Reich has failed


----------



## Saishin (Jul 6, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> The Fourth Reich has failed


----------



## Saishin (Jul 6, 2015)

> *Merkel calls for special eurozone Greece summit
> *
> 
> Chancellor Angela Merkel discussed the outcome of Greece's referendum with French President Francois Hollande in a telephone call Sunday evening, with both agreeing the 'No' vote must be respected, a German government spokesman said.
> ...







> *France: 'No one wants to kick Greece out of euro'*
> 
> UPDATED: The French president will meet with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Paris on Monday for urgent talks after the Greek voters defied their warnings of a "Grexit" and gave a resounding "No" to creditors' harsh bailout terms.
> 
> ...


----------



## Roman (Jul 6, 2015)

armorknight said:


> The following quote by Robert Louis Stevenson prefectly describes this situation.
> 
> "Sooner or later everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences."
> 
> As I've said before, this whole thing has shown how farcical the eurozone and the EU really are. The promise of utopia given by monolithic supranational entities has turned into the same old same old. The big guys screw over the small guys. Greece should get out completely and focus on rebuilding. There will be short-term pain, but the long-term gains are worth it for more than just economic reasons.



What needs to be done is have everyone return to their own currencies. Countries that are suffering now were thriving before the Euro. The EU in and of itself isn't the problem, it's the common currency being used across a wide spectrum of differing economies. EU can stay, it was definitely working, but the euro needs to go for as long as the EU isn't a federal economy.


----------



## Saishin (Jul 6, 2015)

> *Renzi calls for exit from 'Germany-France' format*
> 
> Italy’s premier Matteo Renzi said he would put pressure on EU leaders to move away from an EU format led by France and Germany as Greek voters overwhelmingly rejected international creditors’ tough bailout conditions.
> 
> ...







> *'Democracy' the winner in Greece: Podemos*
> 
> The leader of Spain's leftist Podemos party on Sunday hailed results from Greece's referendum showing voters decisively rejecting creditors' bailout terms as a victory for democracy.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 6, 2015)

Alright so some short news from Greece:

Greek Finance Minister, Yanis Varoufakis, was forced to resign "because it was decided that it would help the prospects of a deal". His replacement will be announced in a few hours.

Tsipras has called Greek political party leaders in a meeting. 


Michel Sapin said that the ECB shouldn't reduce the liquidity that it provides to Greek banks. 

China said (for the millionth time) that it wants Greece to remain in the eurozone. 

Europe examines how it will be able to provide humanitarian support in the case of a Grexit, as well as the legal consequences of a Grexit. 

Voridis said that it's not out of the question for him to try to become the next ND leader.

Meimarakis is the transitional president of ND.

Four arrests yesterday in the riots that happened in Exarcheia.

Alternate Minister of Finance, Mardas, said that 1,120 bank stores will be open today for pensioners to take 120 euros out. This is only true however for pensioners who didn't take 120 euros out last week. He said that after the ECB takes its decisions concerning the ELA he will talk with the Bank of Greece and issue an emergency legislative decree tonight that will regulate the operation of Greek banks (withdrawal limits etc). He said that the decree will also regulate the safe deposit boxes as well. More specifically it will be illegal to take money, gold or jewlry from your safe deposit box.

The banking system is quickly running out of money. There is a shortage of 20-euro bills these last few days so it's not possible for ATMs to give Greeks the 60 euros that they are allowed according to law but only 50 euros.

On Friday the banking system had about 1 billion euros in liquid form. Now it only has 800 million euros. Hundreds of ATMs have closed already. If the ECB doesn't raise the ELA cap then the majority of ATMs will close by the end of the day due to a shortage of banknotes.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> The Fourth Reich has failed



Honestly.

Fuck the Krauts, and fuck the French.

The EU is made of 28 member states not just these two.

Meh, the UK has overtaken the Toads, and Germans are dying out.

Things will get better in time for the EU eventually.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 6, 2015)

Fuck you too Maddie.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> Meh, the UK has overtaken the Toads, and Germans are dying out.




UK yearns for the splendid isolation and Germany is the only one (trying to) make this mess work.


On topic: How long till the return of Drachma? I bet two weeks before they need to take another currency on Euro's side.


----------



## Zyrax (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> Honestly.
> 
> Fuck the Krauts, and fuck the French.
> 
> ...


"Yes We British are so superior to the Germans, Its not like we are Germans, Its not Like the Anglo Saxxons Were Germanic Tribes who devoloped their own Culture"


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Amanda said:


> UK yearns for the splendid isolation and Germany is the only one (trying to) make this mess work.



You must have been looking the other way earlier this year when the UK was pushing for reform within the EU. Unless, you consider greater autonomy over border controls 'Isolationist'. And Germany isn't fixing anything, but keeping the Eurozone pipe dream alive regardless of the human cost involved.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 6, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> "Yes We British are so superior to the Germans, Its not like we are Germans, Its not Like the Anglo Saxxons Were Germanic Tribes who devoloped their own Culture"





Funnily, one day I read about a research done among Americans, where they were asked which country they thought was the most important one in Europe. Majority guessed UK. 




MbS said:


> You must have been looking the other way earlier this year when the UK was pushing for reform within the EU. Unless, you consider greater autonomy over border controls 'Isolationist'. And Germany isn't fixing anything, but keeping the Eurozone pipe dream alive regardless of the human cost involved.




Reforms and special privileges.


----------



## Velocity (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> The EU is made of 28 member states not just these two.



That's the biggest problem with the European Union. Merkel in particular struts her stuff about as if she owns the entire continent. It's ridiculous to believe so many countries could work together when only two ever really seem to get a say in anything. In fact, the reason the UK feels so snubbed by the EU is specifically _because_ we don't get a say in anything regardless of the fact that we pay so damn much into the EU each year.

Maybe if there was a greater sense of cooperation and conversation, entire countries wouldn't feel alienated by the EU.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 6, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Funnily, one day I read about a research done among Americans, where they were asked which country they thought was the most important country in Europe. Majority guessed UK.



I always thought UK was more a sovereign state than a country.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> "Yes We British are so superior to the Germans, Its not like we are Germans, Its not Like the Anglo Saxxons Were Germanic Tribes who devoloped their own Culture"



Ahem, the Anglo-Saxons to the extent that they can be defined genetically, were small immigrant minorities. They didn't have that much of an impact on the British Isles gene pool than the Vikings, the Normans.



Amanda said:


> Reforms and *special privileges.*



You mean like France and Germany already do?

I have news for you, the UK is a big beast in the EU. It's created more jobs in the last year then the whole of the EU combined, and contributes more money into the EU then anyone else except Germany. It can afford to throw its weight around, rather unlike some wannabe third world country like say... Greece.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 6, 2015)

What a timing! 



MbS said:


> You mean like France and Germany already do?
> 
> I have news for you, the UK is a big beast in the EU. It's created more jobs in the last year then the whole of the EU combined, and contributes more money into the EU then anyone else except Germany. It can afford to throw its weight around, rather unlike some wannabe third world country like say... Greece.




Hush hush, I'm just teasing you.  Got nothing against UK, and personally I support the reforms suggested by Cameron.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Jul 6, 2015)

Give us more money - expect nothing in return

#Greece2015


----------



## Rain (Jul 6, 2015)

Merkel is an old underfucked hag.


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> Honestly.
> 
> Fuck the Krauts, and fuck the French.
> 
> ...



How would that be UK's business though?


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> How would that be UK's business though?



I'm sure you're trying to make some dubious point here.

It just got lost over the web someplace.


----------



## the_notorious_Z.É. (Jul 6, 2015)

Rain said:


> Merkel is an old underfucked hag.



I don't know, she was into nudism in her youth, sounds like she was quite wild back in the days.


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> I'm sure you're trying to make some dubious point here.
> 
> It just got lost over the web someplace.



Isn't it obvious? The UK has always been rather half-assed about the whole European project. And if you could develope a device that would move you're whole island across the atlantic, I'm not so sure that you wouldn't.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Isn't it obvious? The UK has always been rather half-assed about the whole European project. And if you could develope a device that would move you're whole island across the atlantic, I'm not so sure that you wouldn't.



Wow, what a load of crap. 

Just read this.



MbS said:


> This is also a common misconception about the UK distancing itself. No major party wants to take the UK out of the EU. The UK is actively very involved with the EU, and no other country par Germany pours as much money into it.
> 
> It's mostly a myth Germans appear to readily believe and promulgate. Anti-EU sentiment is no worse in the UK then anywhere else in the EU, probably less.
> 
> The Chancellor of the Exchequer recently made a white lie claiming the UK would 'leave the EU' if it didn't get itself together'. The guy is a known pro-Euro and it was typical political arm twisting. Leaving the EU was never an viable option, but instead to deliberately put the fright into the German ruling elite, because that's the only time they appear to listen to criticism. But they knew it was horseshit and it backfired. Yet ordinary Germans think this is 'proof' of overarching anti-EU sentiment in the UK, and remain ignorant of how bad it is in the rest of Europe.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 6, 2015)

"An unoptimal group of nations is kept together by forming a federation, where money is transferred from the countries in boom to the countries in trouble."

If Greece can vote no to...to... to whatever they actually voted about yesterday, can we vote no to this being used as an excuse to force us into a federation? I don't want any United States of Europe, and I don't care how much you tell me nationalism is ebul and USE is the future. This crap is done for the money, not for the people.


----------



## Atem (Jul 6, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> Give us more money - expect nothing in return
> 
> #Greece2015



As a Greek person I got to say that this is a very Greek way of doing things.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 6, 2015)




----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 6, 2015)

This actually is a huge opening for France to seize, should it want to.

The EU was created as a political project, the purpose of which was a Pax Francia, paid for by Germans.

Except in the last decade or so France's influence has waned and Germany has become more active.

If Hollande actually pushes to end said austerity and move towards more unity, it certainly will piss off the Germans and other Northern Europeans but it'll save the EU. They'll rage but he has an excellent rebuttal of "Your way didn't work. Lets try something else."


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> Honestly.
> 
> Fuck the Krauts, and fuck the French.
> 
> ...



 made me laugh +reps


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Pliskin said:


> made me laugh +reps



Your rep power is ridiculously low, like your country's birth rate.


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> Wow, what a load of crap.
> 
> Just read this.



I did. You countered nothing. The UK's attitude towards Europe is and always has been half-assed, compared to that of the continentals. Listen, I'm trully sorry, I wish it wasn't so. But it is.




> *Britain and the EU: A long and rocky relationship*
> 
> By Sam Wilson BBC News
> 
> ...


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I did. You countered nothing. The UK's attitude towards Europe is and always has been half-assed, compared to that of the continentals. Listen, I'm trully sorry, I wish it wasn't so. But it is.



Eh, your 'post' doesn't really highlight UK preference for wanting to be out of the EU, or preferring the US to Europe. No deal.



> compared to that of the continentals.



Like who? The Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Spain? You're shitting me right? The UK's angst toward the EU is just more publicised then others is all. The UK's being an island and all, obviously they must be more in favour of isolation, right?


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> Eh, your 'post' doesn't really highlight UK preference for wanting to be out of the EU, or preferring the US to Europe. No deal.



I didn't say that, did I? Before you ask what is was that I said - instead of just re-reading it:

_"The UK has always been rather half-assed about the whole European project. And if you could develope a device that would move you're whole island across the atlantic, I'm not so sure that you wouldn't."_



> Like who? The Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Spain? You're shitting me right? The UK's angst toward the EU is just more publicised then others is all. The UK's being an island and all, obviously they must be more in favour of isolation, right?



No, you must be shitting me. It's not even a question, everbody knows it, everybody except you.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 6, 2015)

The real reason behind Britain's desire to be in Europe


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 6, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> The real reason behind Britain's desire to be in Europe



I knew it! And the US is totally in on it!


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 6, 2015)

We'll have to wait for the Eurogroup and the Euro summit on Tuesday to draw any certain conclusions of how the negotiations will go from now on.

The ECB based on the result of the referendum and the prospects of a deal decided to raise the haircuts govt-backed collateral held by Greek banks and to keep ELA at its current level. Draghi decided not to announce how high the increase of the haircuts will be. This will be announced tomorrow probably based on how much progress will have been made in the negotiations. I warned about this like 24 hours ago...



> *Greek party leaders issue joint statement*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I didn't say that, did I? Before you ask what is was that I said - instead of just re-reading it:
> 
> _"The UK has always been rather half-assed about the whole European project. And if you could develope a device that would move you're whole island across the atlantic, I'm not so sure that you wouldn't."_



Ok.

Your post doesn't really give any credence to your claim about the UK being 'half-assed'. On the contrary.



> No, you must be shitting me. It's not even a question, everbody knows it, everybody except you.



> "everybody knows it"

Argumentum ad populum

Nice fallacy you got thar.


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 6, 2015)

MbS said:


> Ok.
> 
> Your post doesn't really give any credence to your claim about the UK being 'half-assed'. On the contrary.
> 
> ...



On the contrary? That's rich! Have you even read the bloody title? 

Well I guess some delusions aren't curiable, but even so, there are worse forms of delusion than believing that Britain is seriously commited to being a part of Europe. I see no harm in that, carry on.


----------



## Destroyer of Kittens (Jul 7, 2015)

here is the basic gist of the entire European debt crisis..  pretty well done.


----------



## ripley (Jul 7, 2015)

It's really sad to see the founding nation of western civilization go down like this.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> This actually is a huge opening for France to seize, should it want to.
> 
> The EU was created as a political project, the purpose of which was a Pax Francia, paid for by Germans.
> 
> ...





It's not guaranteed everyone will be just ok with even more centralization and federalism. And France can't just make people do it against their will. All significant new changes would have to go through the parlaments of each member nation... Trying to do that could as well just give anti-EU forces more wind without gaining anything.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 7, 2015)

ripley said:


> It's really sad to see the founding nation of western civilization go down like this.



Germany is going down?


----------



## Greedy master (Jul 8, 2015)

Rytlock Brimstone said:


> As a Greek person I got to say that this is a very Greek way of doing things.




As a greek person aswell , id say this is flat out wrong , the goverment agreed to take measures up to 8 billions and even then that wasnt enough to seal the deal , why? because the money will be paid by rich and europe doesnt want that ,  CAPITALIST europe ftw.

Greeks never got a cent for their country , all these money went to save french and german banks , we sacrificed our people just to save some fucking banks.

We all voted to quit the motherfucking eurozone , im pretty sure we will do better without it , we can follow the example of countries  like  iceland  , i hope the goverment will not agree to a new memorandum , that would be the worst betrayal ever.


----------



## Sansa (Jul 8, 2015)

Lol Greece

Pay you fucking denbts


----------



## Rain (Jul 8, 2015)

with what money?


----------



## Sansa (Jul 8, 2015)

Blood money of course


----------



## Zyrax (Jul 8, 2015)

Choa said:


> Blood money of course


The Blood of the Hohols


----------



## dr_shadow (Jul 8, 2015)

Choa said:


> Lol Greece
> 
> Pay you fucking denbts



They were, actually, but with borrowed money.

As I understand it, bonds usually have a fixed expiry date. So what they've been doing is borrow money from the IMF to pay the bonds to other creditors, in essence postponing payment. Like this:

*Loan 1.* 100 Euros, expires 2015-07-01

*Loan 2.* 100 Euros, expires 2016-01-01

*Loan 3.* 100 Euros, expires 2016-07-01

You take loan 2 to pay off loan 1, and then when you fail to pay back loan 2 you need to take loan 3 to pay loan 2. And so on in an endless cycle of postponement.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jul 8, 2015)

It was only a matter of time before this happened, anyway.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 8, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> This actually is a huge opening for France to seize, should it want to.
> 
> The EU was created as a political project, the purpose of which was a Pax Francia, paid for by Germans.
> 
> ...



Typically, chancellors in Germany, just like presidents in France, are long-term, remembered and often even valued for their efforts towards European unity. I don't think Merkel would want a Grexit to be associated with her legacy. 

Probably Hollande's cabinet thinks the same thing. They just need to get Merkel to realize that she needs to suffer short term political loss (angry germans when they realize they're not getting all of their money back) in order to not go down as the chancellor who made a country leave the Eurozone.

After all, the time that Germany has had more influence over the EU than France, is coincidentally also the time that people are not quite so enthousiastic about the EU, and everyone except Germany has been doing poorly economically. It's hard to say which comes first, but this is where we're at right now regardless. 

Controversial idea: The EU as a whole is better off with France in charge, they're more lenient towards other southern european countries, because they have the same approach to economics. Germany has put a stranglehold on weaker economies and enriched itself, and this is the end result, everyone else is doing poorly and nobody likes the EU anymore.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 8, 2015)

I don't see why anyone is giving anyone but Greece heat for this.  Greece does not want to pay its debts.  I fail to see how Germany or anyone else caused this issue.  Ultimately it is the Greeks responsibility to see this debt paid off.  The fact that they haven't been serious about this shows that their government is essentially that cousin in your family that doesn't want to get a job but wants to live in your basement with his girlfriend and smoke weed all day.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Jul 8, 2015)

baconbits said:


> I don't see why anyone is giving anyone but Greece heat for this.  Greece does not want to pay its debts.  I fail to see how Germany or anyone else caused this issue.  Ultimately it is the Greeks responsibility to see this debt paid off.  The fact that they haven't been serious about this shows that their government is essentially that cousin in your family that doesn't want to get a job but wants to live in your basement with his girlfriend and smoke weed all day.



Greece can't pay debt if they don't have money.

And any attempt that Greece might have made of getting money was curbed by the austerity measures that Germany imposed to Greece. Because austerity shrinks the economy and reduces tax collection.

Germany forced Greece to shrink their economy in order to give them financial help. But as Greece's economy shrinks, Greece's ability to pay the debt also goes down.

You can scream that Greece is being immoral all day, and you'll probably be right, but from a practical sense, just blaming them won't solve anything. It will only get them to leave the Euro. Germany and EU need to change the way of dealing with Greece if they have any hope of ever getting their money back while still keeping them in the Eurozone.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Jul 8, 2015)

Imo anybody who is having trouble understanding the whole thing should watch this.



It explains why the Greece problem is happening pretty well.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 8, 2015)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> Greece can't pay debt if they don't have money.
> 
> And any attempt that Greece might have made of getting money was curbed by the austerity measures that Germany imposed to Greece. Because austerity shrinks the economy and reduces tax collection.



There's some truth to this, however the Greeks won't cut anything.  They don't want to raise the retirement age, cut benefits, reduce spending or raise taxes.  They literally don't want to do anything.  Even Greece under austerity spends lavishly.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 8, 2015)

The existence of freeloaders like this highlights the faultiness of euro. Everyone are supposed to take care of each other, but only some take care of themselves. Greece's arrogance doesn't help its cause, either. It acts like everyone else's tax payers owe Greece their own hard earned money.

Personally I'm willing to suffer the loss of the money we gave them, just end this farce. They can go and rebuild their economy on their own. No more Germany,  no more austerity, be happy.


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 8, 2015)

baconbits said:


> There's some truth to this, however the Greeks won't cut anything.  They don't want to raise the retirement age, cut benefits, reduce spending or raise taxes.  They literally don't want to do anything.  Even Greece under austerity spends lavishly.



None of that is true though.


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 8, 2015)

> *The forgotten origins of Greece’s crisis will make you think twice about who’s to blame*
> 
> 
> _By Ana Swanson
> ...







Bottom line: Being shitty at keeping a balanced budget alone wasn't enough to throw Greece that deep into a crisis. They had a lot of help from their northern friends too.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 8, 2015)

baconbits said:


> There's some truth to this, however the Greeks won't cut anything.  They don't want to raise the retirement age, cut benefits, reduce spending or raise taxes.  They literally don't want to do anything.  Even Greece under austerity spends lavishly.



The retirement age is at 65 right now and will rise to 67.  benefits are needed to pay for people that had their jobs wiped out in the first wave of austerity.  25%+ overall unemployment  with under 30 year old unemployment at nearly 60%.  The people that did work today and prior to the economic crash were working longer hours than anyone outside of S.Korea when we talk about western economies. (That includes your average american).  They took the least amount of holiday time too.

Before people scream "But greeks retired at 50." no they didn't.  2005 study had average Greek retirement back then at 61.7.  Germany at 61.3 so even then Greece were working longer hours, less vacation time AND took longer to retire.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 8, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Bottom line: Being shitty at keeping a balanced budget alone wasn't enough to throw Greece that deep into a crisis. They had a lot of help from their northern friends too.




Greece should never have been allowed to join euro in the first place as its economy wasn't fit for it. But it faked its data and cheated its way in. 

Reminds of the last time it was kicked out of an economical unionin: it tried to forge money by tinkering with the concentration of gold in its "gold" coins.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

But really this blame game between north and south is pointless. The real culprits aren't the common people of any country. They have already folded and are now laughing at us on their private islands, while Europeans argue with each other, Greeks keep slipping further down the toilet, and the tax payer money keeps flowing at their accounts.

Personally I would have wanted us to let the investors to suffer their losses as they happened. But no, we had to once again socialize the losses. It can't be taken back now. 

What we need to do now is some hard choices about EU's future structure. Who has the power, and who has the responsibility? Whoever is given the responsibility should also have the power. This means that if we want to keep living in a money transfer union, we also need to become a federation.

 It means the end of nation states. We all pay our taxes to Bryssels and they reculate its use as they see fit.

That or we end euro and decentralize EU.


----------



## Zyrax (Jul 9, 2015)

Amanda said:


> The existence of freeloaders like this highlights the faultiness of euro. *Everyone are supposed to take care of each other, but only some take care of themselves. *Greece's arrogance doesn't help its cause, either. It acts like everyone else's tax payers owe Greece their own hard earned money.
> 
> Personally I'm willing to suffer the loss of the money we gave them, just end this farce. They can go and rebuild their economy on their own. No more Germany,  no more austerity, be happy.


Why did you people of different Cultures to suddenly care about each other more tha  themselfs?


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Why did you people of different Cultures to suddenly care about each other more tha  themselfs?




Taking care of yourself is the best way to take care of others. It means you won't become another mouth to feed. Just like employment is the best social security.

That being said, I don't want anyone to get the impression I'd try to say only the southern countries would have screwed up. Far from it. Up here we're just about to fall dead into the arms of the great bear, despite foreigners apparently thinking if there's snow,  there's money. 

It makes it all that much more difficult for the politicians to explain why we should keep feeding other countries when we're screwed ourselves. But even still, if we're one day in Greece's position,  it's not the fault of, say, Dutch or French tax payers, and I don't feel like they should run to our salvation.


----------



## blueblip (Jul 9, 2015)

The idea of the EU working as a unified entity with individual economies is the major flaw, IMO. If you're going to create a giant, shared economic system, that system should be the defacto system. Otherwise, every country is going to do what it always did, ie. do what benefits them first and foremost. When there's no two countries working towards the same goal but are part of a larger shared economy, that's going to cause major problems.


----------



## Zyrax (Jul 9, 2015)

blueblip said:


> The idea of the EU working as a unified entity with individual economies is the major flaw, IMO. If you're going to create a giant, shared economic system, that system should be the defacto system. Otherwise, every country is going to do what it always did, ie. do what benefits them first and foremost. When there's no two countries working towards the same goal but are part of a larger shared economy, that's going to cause major problems.


One could argue that the AU is working better than The EU mainly because The African Countries have the same goal. 
Which is ending the poverty in their countries and becoming more relevant in global Stage. They stick together because they have no choise.


----------



## blueblip (Jul 9, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> One could argue that the AU is working better than The EU mainly because The African Countries have the same goal.
> Which is ending the poverty in their countries and becoming more relevant in global Stage. They stick together because they have no choise.


To a very slight degree. Most crucially, however, is that most members of the AU are more or less on par with each other (economically speaking). Of course, there are some countries that are way ahead or behind others, but compared to Europe, it's a lot more equal overall.


----------



## dr_shadow (Jul 9, 2015)

If the EU falls apart, we in the Nordic countries will start our own EU! With blackjack, and hookers!!


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

The African Union is many decades away from where the EU is. I'm not talking about economic development (it's centuries behind there) but rather the level of integration in the EU with the biggest step so far being the introduction of a common currency (at least in the majority of EU countries). A common currency is one of the stated long-term goals of the AU but it will still take more than a decade for that to happen.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> If the EU falls apart, we in the Nordic countries will start our own EU! With blackjack, and hookers!!




It's what we wanted to do, too. There were multiple attempts to start a Nordic Union of some kind. However, they always failed due to all the countries having different needs and wishes. 



Hozukimaru said:


> The African Union is many decades away from where the EU is. I'm not talking about economic development (it's centuries behind there) but rather the level of integration in the EU with the biggest step so far being the introduction of a common currency (at least in the majority of EU countries). A common currency is one of the stated long-term goals of the AU but it will still take more than a decade for that to happen.




I don't know if we should be boasting of our common currency right now... Seems like we adopted it way too early. As was said, we should have unified our economies into one before starting to use euros.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Jul 9, 2015)

Problem is that unifying the economics means surrendering national sovereignity, and Europenas are too proud for that. Not gonna blame them for that though, since there are still generations that remember WW2 and/or are not used to integration. Maybe in a few generations they could do it, though.

The other options are giving up on the Euro, which works but is a step back in terms of historic advancement, or trying to handle the system the way it is but getting ready to face more crisis in the future.

I suppose the whole problem is that the Euro was created too early in humanity's history.


----------



## baconbits (Jul 9, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> None of that is true though.



Sure it is.  From your own article:



> Greece has a lot of well-recognized economic problems: Its public sector is bloated and marred by corruption, and many analysts say that the country cooked its books to hide the real amount of debt from the rest of Europe.





> The booming economy in Greece and other countries such as Ireland and Spain caused prices to rise, and the countries gave generous pay rises to their workers, which made their exports more expensive.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 9, 2015)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> Problem is that unifying the economics means surrendering national sovereignity, and Europenas are too proud for that. Not gonna blame them for that though, since there are still generations that remember WW2 and/or are not used to integration. Maybe in a few generations they could do it, though.
> 
> The other options are giving up on the Euro, which works but is a step back in terms of historic advancement, or trying to handle the system the way it is but getting ready to face more crisis in the future.
> 
> I suppose the whole problem is that the Euro was created too early in humanity's history.


The problem is you can't have monetary unity without economic and political unity.

The Eurozone is for all intents and purposes all those countries  to the German Mark.

Which is great when your economy is strong. But when it isn't, you're right fucked.


----------



## Son of Goku (Jul 9, 2015)

baconbits said:


> Sure it is.  From your own article:



Really, how so? 

You said:

_"however the Greeks won't cut anything. They don't want to raise the retirement age, cut benefits, reduce spending or raise taxes. They literally don't want to do anything. Even Greece under austerity spends lavishly."_


Your quote from the article says:

_"Greece has a lot of well-recognized economic problems: Its public sector is bloated and marred by corruption, and many analysts say that the country cooked its books to hide the real amount of debt from the rest of Europe.

The booming economy in Greece and other countries such as Ireland and Spain caused prices to rise, and the countries gave generous pay rises to their workers, which made their exports more expensive. "_


None of your points are backed up by the article. And may I remind you that the article talks about the origins of the problem, not the measures the Greeks were forced to take since then AND the measures they are now offering to stay in the Euro.

And those measures that they took in the past were immense, don't ever doubt that. But they were all about cutting and not about investing, which caused the Greek economy to shrink by 1/4. Which is why Syriza was voted in to try and change that destructive policy. But they hit a wall.

Plus, what Nemesis said:



Nemesis said:


> The retirement age is at 65 right now and will rise to 67.  benefits are needed to pay for people that had their jobs wiped out in the first wave of austerity.  25%+ overall unemployment  with under 30 year old unemployment at nearly 60%.  The people that did work today and prior to the economic crash were working longer hours than anyone outside of S.Korea when we talk about western economies. (That includes your average american).  They took the least amount of holiday time too.
> 
> Before people scream "But greeks retired at 50." no they didn't.  2005 study had average Greek retirement back then at 61.7.  Germany at 61.3 so even then Greece were working longer hours, less vacation time AND took longer to retire.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

I'm really starting to believe this was it. By the end of the week we hear it's official: Greece is out and the money we give to them in the future is humanitarian aid, not loan.


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

Amanda said:


> I don't know if we should be boasting of our common currency right now... Seems like we adopted it way too early. As was said, we should have unified our economies into one before starting to use euros.



This is exactly the case. It's not that AU members have a common goal while EU members don't. It's not that AU members are more economically equal to each other than EU members are either.

The AU "works better than the EU does" because the AU doesn't even have a common currency yet. The problems of the Eurozone that were created with the adoption of a common currency without a common fiscal policy (not even to a bear minimum standard) are not problems that the AU has faced yet because it hasn't reached that level of integration yet.

When the AU adopts its single currency we'll see how it will deal with the various fiscal policies that its member-states will have.



Amanda said:


> I'm really starting to believe this was it. By the end of the week we hear it's official: Greece is out and the money we give to them in the future is humanitarian aid, not loan.



We'll probably know by the end of the week (?). I'm not seeing a deal been reached either although I want to have some hope even in the last minute...


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Hozukimaru said:


> We'll probably know by the end of the week (?). I'm not seeing a deal been reached either although I want to have some hope even in the last minute...





Damn, I might have been frustrated with the communists and the non-euro outsiders trying to guilt trip the Euro members to affect their decisions, but.... I do honestly feel awful for you guys there. The common people just wanting to live did nothing wrong, it's our incompete bosses and the banskter gangsters who brought this.

Though,  I want to think that even if Greece leaves Euro it still has a future. The first year is probably the worst. But at least you will get to plan your own economy and don't have to follow the conditions agreed with the lenders.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Jul 9, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> If the EU falls apart, we in the Nordic countries will start our own EU! With blackjack, and hookers!!


A Northern European Union is actually a really good idea. (Though joining the US is better)

If they lost the dead weight of the Latin countries, they'd be in much better shape.

A pan-viking union of UK, Scandanavia, Ireland, Benelux would be a rather strong state.

The Carolignians and Romans can get fucked.


----------



## dr_shadow (Jul 9, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> A Northern European Union is actually a really good idea. (Though joining the US is better)
> 
> If they lost the dead weight of the Latin countries, they'd be in much better shape.
> 
> ...



It's happened before. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland and Iceland were in union 1397-1523. It came about to counter German (Hanseatic League) influence in Scandinavia. The main reason for dissolution was that Sweden perceived Denmark to be disproportionately favored: the king resided in Copenhagen and Danish officials, rather than locals, administered the other realms as well. I guess kind of like England's role in the United Kingdom?

Since then there have been a couple of bilateral unions, like Sweden-Norway 1814-1905, but none covering all of the "Viking" countries.


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

The deadline for Greece to send its new proposals to the creditors ends in a few hours. 

Information so far shows that Greece will ask for a 50 billion euros loan from the European Stability Mechanism in exchange for 13 billion euros worth of reforms, budget cuts and tax raises. 

This austerity package will be much larger than the 8.5 billion euros austerity package that was rejected in the Greek referendum.

The exact measures proposed by the Greek side will be known in a while if all goes well. We'll also know exactly how and when the ESM loans will be given and if the proposal mentions debt restructuring.

We'll also get the first comments from European officials in a few hours. The measures will most likely go to the Greek parliament tomorrow with emergency procedures, they'll be discussed in the Eurogroup on Saturday and if they are deemed adequate there they will be approved by the EU summit on Sunday. Then the EU member states will ratify the deal in their national parliaments (and I think that ESM deals also have to go through the European Parliament).

Let's just hope that this time the Greek proposal has actual reforms that the European officials can give their approval to. We can avoid a Grexit that way...


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> A Northern European Union is actually a really good idea. (Though joining the US is better)
> 
> If they lost the dead weight of the Latin countries, they'd be in much better shape.
> 
> ...





Splicing EU up into more logical entities with similar economies has been proposed. Some said EU will divide into North and South. 

However, I don't know if that would really happen. It could be really hard for smaller economies to stay alone with the strong Germany who keeps pushing Euro's value up. Plus as they say, Germany would like to keep all the big economies with it, such as Italy, rather than smaller northern states such as Slovakia or the Baltics. 

So the Balkanization wouldn't follow any "cultural" boundaries, but the economic money flow ties.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Hozukimaru said:


> This austerity package will be much larger than the 8.5 billion euros austerity package that was rejected in the Greek referendum.




How is that supposed to work? Can Tsipras just walk over the referendum? Or is it a question of making the cuts in more logical and fair way, so that it doesn't punish the poor instead of taxing the rich?


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 9, 2015)

Make drugs legal and put a high tax tariff on the importation of drugs. problem solved.


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

Amanda said:


> How is that supposed to work? Can Tsipras just walk over the referendum? Or is it a question of making the cuts in more logical and fair way, so that it doesn't punish the poor instead of taxing the rich?



The main difference as I understand it will be debt restructuring. I don't think that the government would propose a document (that has being approved by the majority of minister) that doesn't include debt restructuring. Maybe there will be some more focus on taxes than budget cuts but the Europeans are not as likely to accept it if it has many tax raises. They think that it will hurt the Greek economy a lot and that it will shift much of the burden to the private sector and as thus increase unemployment and deepen the recession.

Alright so we sent the proposal to Dijsselbloem. He is the one who has to send them to the finance ministers of the eurozone. Dijsselbloem confirmed that he has the proposal in his hands.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Hozukimaru said:


> The main difference as I understand it will be debt restructuring. I don't think that the government would propose a document (that has being approved by the majority of minister) that doesn't include debt restructuring. Maybe there will be some more focus on taxes than budget cuts but the Europeans are not as likely to accept it if it has many tax raises. They think that it will hurt the Greek economy a lot and that it will shift much of the burden to the private sector and as thus increase unemployment and deepen the recession.




The debt cuts are a difficult one. Logically we should cut them, or at least give you more time to pay. But let's see how that goes.



Hozukimaru said:


> Alright so we sent the proposal to Dijsselbloem. He is the one who has to send them to the finance ministers of the eurozone. Dijsselbloem confirmed that he has the proposal in his hands.




Well, that's the start.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Ok so I read a bit more into it and they say these cuts would be the most brutal in all these 5 years. They say Greece might need humanitarian aid despite the new loans and the saving of their bank system because of how strict the cuts would be. They also say this needs to go through in Greece's parliament yet.


----------



## dr_shadow (Jul 9, 2015)

Dreams of a new Nordic Union were in vogue before World War 2, but at the moment it's on hold because of some countries not liking NATO and others not liking the EU.

Denmark is in the EU and NATO.
Sweden and Finland are in the EU but not NATO.
Norway and Iceland are in NATO but not the EU.

For there to be a Scandinavian federation, all member states should have the same military and economic commitments.


----------



## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

I don't even know what to want. All options sound bad.

And what is this game Tsipras is playing? Does he pretend to agree to the cuts, get the money, and then take the cuts to be voted in the Greek parliament that rejects them?



mr_shadow said:


> Dreams of a new Nordic Union were in vogue before World War 2, but at the moment it's on hold because of some countries not liking NATO and others not liking the EU.
> 
> Denmark is in the EU and NATO.
> Sweden and Finland are in the EU but not NATO.
> ...




It's pretty impossible to fit the geopolitical interests of countries like Denmark and Finland into one unity these days. Economically it might work... or... what would we do about the poverty line between Norway and the rest? Would we transfer their oil money to Finland's dying economy? Would our prices jump up to their levels?


----------



## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

I don't think that there's a way the Greek parliament will reject the cuts. Latest info talks about 13.5 billion euros in cuts and taxes, 61 billion euros ESM loan, 3 years program. Martin Selmayr confirms that all three institutions have the proposals now (at first they were sent without being signed...)



> *So what happens now? Over to Athens.....*
> Our correspondent Helena Smith has confirmed that the proposed reforms have indeed been sent to the country’s creditors - and three hours AHEAD of the midnight deadline central European time.
> 
> Government insiders are saying the proposals were sent at 1O PM Greek time (9 PM central European time) to all three creditors and the president of the Euro Group of euro area finance ministers Jeroen Dijsselbloem.
> ...



Guardian


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## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

"The proposed package - a biting mix of tax hikes and swingeing cutbacks - was tabled in parliament as an emergency bill on Thursday."


This doesn't sound good at all tbh. Even if they get the new loan, at what cost it comes? What if Greece stays within Euro, but still sinks? We'll be sending you medicine, soap and soup ere the winter.


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## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

The proposal has been leaked to the press.


()

It's too long to post it all here but sadly it doesn't look like something that the creditors would accept. I don't know if it actually adds up to 13 billion euros. I'll read all of it and then come back to talk about its specific points.


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## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Take care, Hozukimaru,  take care...

If this fails, I suggest you knock on USA's door, they're keen on keeping you from Ruskies and have already saved you once before. Obama no longer needs to try to "guide" Merkel & co.


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## Blue (Jul 9, 2015)

Total value of Greece and everyone and everything in it is , or 1/4 of what the US spends on its military every year, or 1/5 of the financial bailout amount.

US should just buy Greece and turn it into a nature preserve.

And if anyone is curious, the entire rest of the world would have to save every cent for 4 years to buy the United States.


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## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Blue said:


> Total value of Greece and everyone and everything in it is , or 1/4 of what the US spends on its military every year, or 1/5 of the financial bailout amount.
> 
> US should just buy Greece and turn it into a nature preserve.




What will you do about the Africans?


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## Blue (Jul 9, 2015)

Amanda said:


> What will you do about the Africans?



Let the cops shoot them

Put them to work in the gangsta rap industry.


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## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

Meh, to Russia we're just a door to Europe. A way to enter the European gas market. Outside the EU they have little economic benefit in our cooperation and with us being a NATO member an military alliance between us is not very realistic either.

After reading the proposals what I have to say is that I agree with the proposed reforms on privatizations, the product market, the financial sector, tax administration, public administration, justice, anti-corruption and pension reform. The reforms on the labour market don't sound promising at all on the other hand. I also disagree with the fiscal structural measures as well as the VAT reform proposed because it'll hurt the economy. 

On VAT reform I would propose that restaurants and catering be placed in the 13% rate instead of the 23% rate. In exchange for that the elimination on the discounts of the islands should not be as gradual and should have less exceptions and compensations. 

When it comes to the fiscal structural measures I'd like to see less tax rises and cuts that will increase unemployment although I do agree with the genuine reforms that it includes. For example I disagree with increasing the corporate income tax, 100% tax advance payments, raising the solidarity surcharge, reduction in military headcount and procurement, tax on television advertisements etc.

Also it doesn't seem like there are any actual proposals about the labour market besides some generic promises of future reviews and consultations.

Although the Greek proposal doesn't seem to include debt relief the Greek government seems to have leaked a non-paper explaining that it's also seeking “regulation’ of debt” and the €35bn investment package promised by Juncker.



			
				Guardian said:
			
		

> *Summary: Greece compromises, at the last moment
> 
> So to recap, Greece put forward a plan of reforms, spending cuts and tax rises that is close to what was demanded by its creditors before Alexis Tsipras called last Sunday’s referendum.*
> 
> ...


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jul 9, 2015)

Blue said:


> Total value of Greece and everyone and everything in it is , or 1/4 of what the US spends on its military every year, or 1/5 of the financial bailout amount.
> 
> US should just buy Greece and turn it into a nature preserve.
> 
> And if anyone is curious, the entire rest of the world would have to save every cent for 4 years to buy the United States.



It would be quite nifty to just watch the negotiation of one country buying another.


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## Amanda (Jul 9, 2015)

@ Hozukimaru 

It might be enough for the creditors. But Merkel has already made it clear the debts stay, so I don't see much future there. Let's see how it goes!


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## Hozukimaru (Jul 9, 2015)

Meh, I hope that the creditors agree but I'm not seeing that. Look, the problem is that the measures included in the proposals are not enough to reach the fiscal targets included in the proposals...

This proposal seems to be a compromise between the _Junker proposal_ (rejected in the referendum) and the _pre-referendum Greek proposal_.

Any agreement reached now will certainly include the _damage _done to the Greek economy by the _referendum _which is _several billion euros_ and as thus be _worse_ than the Junker proposal. Every day without a deal widens the fiscal deficit and as thus makes the creditors ask for more and more measures.

Now is the Greek side completely naive and can't understand this? Well in fact it _does_ recognize that its numbers simply don't add up to its fiscal targets. It even says that "The fiscal path to reach the medium term primary surplus target of 3.5% will be discussed with the institutions, _in light of recent economic developments_." In short instead of adopting new measures to cover these new economic losses Tsipras wants to lower the fiscal targets. The fiscal targets for the next three years are in brackets, meaning that they are open to change...


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## Son of Goku (Jul 10, 2015)

Those lazy Greeks.... 




Also: German efficiency.


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## Amanda (Jul 10, 2015)

olaf said:


> what?
> 
> Here I thought that it's all about debts that Greece took as a country (and used it to fund things likes pensions n shit), but it turns out that they are just helping their citizens. So nice of them




First it took loan from German and French banks to pay whatever stuff countries pay. Then it took more and more loan from various other countries and IMF to pay back the original loan. These new loans are by now much greater than the original loan. So that's the money we have been giving them, and possibility give again. The Greeks themselves won't see a cent of it, it all goes to their lenders. If we send them humanitarian aid, then that will go to Greeks and their daily needs.


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## Pliskin (Jul 10, 2015)

Amanda said:


> @ Hozukimaru
> 
> It might be enough for the creditors. But Merkel has already made it clear the debts stay, so I don't see much future there. Let's see how it goes!



Her words were 'Mit mir wird e keinen Schuldenschnitt geben', along the lines of there will be no debt cut. Merkel is known to lie by being literal to deceive (in the NSA scandal she assured that on German soil we will uphold German law, did not mention that 'German law' includes secret contracts between countries for her).

So there will be no direct cut of the debt,  but there are many many ways to reduce the total effective debt without cutting it and the Germans are economically inept enough to think she was true to her words if these ways are used.


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## olaf (Jul 10, 2015)

Amanda said:


> First it took loan from German and French banks to pay whatever stuff countries pay. Then it took more and more loan from various other countries and IMF to pay back the original loan. These new loans are by now much greater than the original loan. So that's the money we have been giving them, and possibility give again. The Greeks themselves won't see a cent of it, it all goes to their lenders. If we send them humanitarian aid, then that will go to Greeks and their daily needs.


I was being sarcastic, but thank you anyway


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## Amanda (Jul 10, 2015)

olaf said:


> I was being sarcastic, but thank you anyway





I have terrible ability to detect sarcasm from mere text without the help of face and voice. Sorry.


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## Saishin (Jul 12, 2015)

*Bewildered Greeks left wondering what happened to referendum 'No' vote*



> Less than a week after they celebrated their rejection of a harsh austerity plan, many Greeks are struggling to understand why Alexis Tsipras is signing up to even deeper spending cuts
> 
> Less than a week after they triumphantly gave international creditors a bloody nose by rejecting a harsh austerity plan, angry and bewildered Greeks are left wondering how they now find themselves swallowing an even worse deal.
> 
> ...


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## Son of Goku (Jul 12, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]ktqKNu4N9Ds[/YOUTUBE]

Great stuff.


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## Amanda (Jul 12, 2015)

If the non-euro people are so concerned about Greece getting money, no one is preventing them from giving it themselves.  

There was , but it has been closed. I don't know where the 1,930,577 euros already donated went... 

But hey, you can always send some money in an open letter to Mr. Tsipras if your heart tells you so! 

Or you can just demand your own government to give them some.


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## dr_shadow (Jul 12, 2015)

N00b question:

What went wrong with Sparta after antiquity? It's famous as the second-most important city after Athens, but the modern municipality of Sparta is only the 112th most populous city in modern Greece.

Athens: 600 000 people (excluding suburbs)
Sparta: 16 000 people 

Someone obviously fucked up, but when and how did the Spartans slide so totally into irrelevance?


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## Son of Goku (Jul 12, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> N00b question:
> 
> What went wrong with Sparta after antiquity? It's famous as the second-most important city after Athens, but the modern municipality of Sparta is only the 112th most populous city in modern Greece.
> 
> ...



That happens when you  throw your babies off a cliff.


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## Amanda (Jul 12, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> N00b question:
> 
> What went wrong with Sparta after antiquity? It's famous as the second-most important city after Athens, but the modern municipality of Sparta is only the 112th most populous city in modern Greece.
> 
> ...





I'm not an expert either, but Sparta was a pretty closed and very conservative society. It didn't really trade with others, it had no industry and had no effect on the Greek culture. It was just obsessed with producing soldiers to defend their closed community. You can survive for your time like that, but ultimately, as a culture, you're doomed to be overshadowed by societies more open to trade and changes.


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jul 12, 2015)

I'm bewildered why the Greek seem to fail basic math. I have no money, I'm in deep dept but why oh god why I should be be cutting my spending sharply?


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## Amanda (Jul 12, 2015)

_"Less than a week after they triumphantly gave international creditors a bloody nose by rejecting a harsh austerity plan, angry and bewildered Greeks are left wondering how they now find themselves swallowing an even worse deal."_


Well you can't just vote about what kind of deal your creditors offer you. It's the creditors who choose that. If you don't accept their deal, then you don't - and they won't lend you any money. It's pretty simple.

As for why the demands are now more strict, there's two reasons. 

First is that the creditors now utterly any lack in trust in Greece. They just said no to the previous deal. What guarantees that they are actually going to follow through with this deal? After they have got the money, will they really do what they agreed to do in exchange?

And secondly, during this chaotic time Greece's economy has taken even harder hit, so it needs even more money.


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## Son of Goku (Jul 12, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> I'm bewildered why the Greek seem to fail basic math. I have no money, I'm in deep dept but why oh god why I should be be cutting my spending sharply?



That faulty logic lead to to the free fall of Greece's economy.

Also: It's de*b*t.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> That faulty logic lead to to the free fall of Greece's economy.
> 
> Also: It's de*b*t.



yes, because borrowing more money in hopes that one day it will get better is a more productive solution


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## Son of Goku (Jul 12, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> yes, because borrowing more money in hopes that one day it will get better is a more productive solution



No, using that money to stimulate the economy is. 

Not saying that the Greeks didn't have to cut spending and still could. But cuts alone lead into desaster and Greece is living proof of that.


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jul 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> No, using that money to stimulate the economy is.
> 
> Not saying that the Greeks didn't have to cut spending and still could. But cuts alone lead into desaster and Greece is living proof of that.



They can use their your own money to stimulate their economy. This isn't their money anymore.


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## Son of Goku (Jul 12, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> They can use their your own money to stimulate their economy. This isn't their money anymore.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> No, using that money to stimulate the economy is.



and how would they stimulate the economy?

money spending alone does not stimulate the economy, the Olympics are the best example of that

without strategic investment (that would give results years later anyway) and, more importantly, actual reforms "spending" is merely an attempt to cover the budget hole with more borrowing



> Not saying that the Greeks didn't have to cut spending and still could. But cuts alone lead into desaster and Greece is living proof of that.



no the only thing Greece is a living proof of is that procrastinating, half assed reforms and blackmailing the creditors leads to economic disaster 

countries that actually did implement austerity measures and reforms have stabilised and most of them even returned to growth


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## Son of Goku (Jul 12, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> and how would they stimulate the economy?
> 
> money spending alone does not stimulate the economy, the Olympics are the best example of that
> 
> without strategic investment (that would give results years later anyway) and, more importantly, actual reforms "spending" is merely an attempt to cover the budget hole with more borrowing


It should've gone without saying that by "stimulating the economy" I didn't mean wasting it on shit like the olympics or other non-sustainable measures. It should have...



> no the only thing Greece is a living proof of is that procrastinating, half assed reforms and blackmailing the creditors leads to economic disaster
> 
> countries that actually did implement austerity measures and reforms have stabilised and most of them even returned to growth



The creditors did most of the blackmailing which is why Greece did a lot more cuts than any of those other countries (than any country ever, in times of peace) and is all the more fucked because of it, because cuts alone are shit. The numbers are known, I'm not gonna repeat them.

But I will post this:



> *The Reason Austerity In Greece Didn't Work*
> _
> 2/26/2015 _
> 
> ...


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## Son of Goku (Jul 12, 2015)

And this:



> *Austerity Has Failed: An Open Letter From Thomas Piketty to Angela Merkel
> 
> Five leading economists warn the German chancellor, ?History will remember you for your actions this week.?*
> 
> ...


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> It should've gone without saying that by "stimulating the economy" I didn't mean wasting it on shit like the olympics or other non-sustainable measures. It should have...



it should

but you didn't mention any actual "sustainable measures" so



> The creditors did most of the blackmailing which is why Greece did a lot more cuts than any of those other countries (than any country ever, in times of peace) and is all the more fucked because of it, because cuts alone are shit. The numbers are known, I'm not gonna repeat them.



Greece had the biggest budget deficit percentage wise, so naturally it needed to cut more

and suit yourself



> But I will post this:



And what this article fails to mention that "cuts" or internal devaluation did dicrease Greece's budget deficit and did make Greek economy more sustainable, and as such more competive in an investor's eyes.


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## Nemesis (Jul 12, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> countries that actually did implement austerity measures and reforms have stabilised and most of them even returned to growth



Latvia is recovering because their unemployment levels dropped due to a massive flee out of the country.
Ireland was rescued by Britain.
Spain issues was down to their economy was hit by the banks more than anything else and recovered naturally.
Portugal because of its links to spain
Austerity would not help greece.  Austerity shrunk the economy by 25%, gave unemployment of over 20% and youth unemployment of near 60% and they expect Greece more of it.  That's like saying "Yeah you have a bullet in your stomach and the only way to save you is to chop off your head." that makes no sense.


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## DarkTorrent (Jul 12, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Latvia is recovering because their unemployment levels dropped due to a massive flee out of the country.



except that has nothing to do with Latvia's GDP, production rates etc reaching back pre-crisis levels

on the contrary, mass emigration levels reduce a country's GDP and production rates, because surprise surprise the workers are the ones who produce the products that then get counted as GDP and production rates

and if they are fleeing then... 

Latvia had problems with mass emmigration even before the crisis, when it was the so-called "Baltic tiger", they didn't appear because of the crisis, nor because of austerity measures, and they sure as hell didn't help Latvia to overcome the crisis lol



> Ireland was rescued by Britain.
> Spain issues was down to their economy was hit by the banks more than anything else and recovered naturally.
> Portugal because of its links to spain



because the reforms and austerity measures that these countries implemented had obviously nothing to do with it

> argument from belief

plus, austerity measures and reforms were implented by much bigger number of countries than you've listed, the UK being among them

but since you are saying that austerity measures have nothing to do with helping these countries, then who or what helped the UK f.e. to the extent that it was able to help Ireland? The U.S.? China?



> Austerity would not help greece.  Austerity shrunk the economy by 25%, gave unemployment of over 20% and youth unemployment of near 60% and they expect Greece more of it.  That's like saying "Yeah you have a bullet in your stomach and the only way to save you is to chop off your head." that makes no sense.



Greece economy shrinking (and the consequences that you've listed) are the result of deep rooted systemic problems of greek economy that make it unsustainable and Greece pretty much going bankrupt back in 2009, way before any austerity measure has been implemented. And this might surprise you but capital and actives (money, companies etc) flee bankrupt countries with unsustainable economy, reducing the country's GDP and employment rate. 

Austerity is an attempt to stop that, an attempt to solve the problem, not it's cause. You can argue that it only made things worse - sure, but saying it caused the problems you've listed is blatant lying. Sure reducing the amount of public sector workers affects the economy's GDP and naturally unemployment rates too, but not to this extent.

When a country is living beyond it's means, when it spends more than it makes, the only way to reduce the deficit is to cut the spending, not to increase it recklessly hoping that soon the country will start making more money. Increasing spending only helps with short term or external crisises, like a panic on financial markets or real estate bubble bursting, not with crisises caused by internal deep rooted economic problems like with Greece. Painful reforms are needed in this case.


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## Saishin (Jul 13, 2015)

*Greek Crisis: DEAL REACHED !!!!*



> European leaders in Brussels reached a third bailout deal for Greece on Monday morning, after a final round of more than 17 hours of talks on the thorny subject of reforms and more financial aid for the near-bankrupt country.
> 
> The president of the European Union, Donald Tusk, tweeted to confirm the news.
> 
> ...


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## Saishin (Jul 13, 2015)

And because of that on Twitter #ThisIsACoup


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## Garfield (Jul 13, 2015)

Not sure how radically this will change the corrupt as fuck Greek bureaucracy, but well at least this crisis is over and we can move on to anticipating the next looming ones.


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## Hand Banana (Jul 13, 2015)

Mega or that new mod what's her name? Make a Super Greek thread so we can stop the fucking stupid italian from making a new thread every day.


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## Son of Goku (Jul 13, 2015)

Garfield said:


> but well at least this crisis is over



Oh really?! :rofl


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## blueblip (Jul 13, 2015)

NaS said:


> Mega or that new mod what's her name? Make a Super Greek thread so we can stop the fucking stupid italian from making a new thread every day.


Nothing can stop Saishin.

He's a news posting bot that's gained an undetermined amount of sentience.


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## Son of Goku (Jul 13, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> it should
> 
> but you didn't mention any actual "sustainable measures" so



Why should I? I'm not Greece and you're not the EU. It's enough to know that sustainable measures could be taken to rebuild and boost the economy.





> Greece had the biggest budget deficit percentage wise, so naturally it needed to cut more
> 
> and suit yourself



And naturally their economy plummeted, cause those cuts weren't accompanied with something like a 'marshal plan' as they should have.



> And what this article fails to mention that "cuts" or internal devaluation did dicrease Greece's budget deficit and did make Greek economy more sustainable, and as such more competive in an investor's eyes.



That doesn't count for shit, as long as Greece remains in crisis mode due to their high unemployment and their suffering and soon again rioting populace. Along with the suffocating debt, that makes for a highly unstable enviroment for investments.


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## Mider T (Jul 13, 2015)

OP made a new thread for this why?


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## Amanda (Jul 13, 2015)

At one point it started to seem like we'd really kick the Greeks out, but figures it was just the lenders putting Greece back into its place.

So, the referendum was useless and won the Greeks nothing?


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## Hozukimaru (Jul 13, 2015)

It's not exactly a deal, despite everyone calling it that. It's just that there has been some agreement over which confidence building measures the Greek side will have to impliment in order to start the negotiations over what a possible new ESM program might include. After those measures are implemented and only then can a decision be taken on whether or not the Troika will start the negotiations for a new Memorandum of Understanding.

Greece has being given two days to legislate:

• the streamlining of the VAT system and the broadening of the tax base to increase revenue

• upfront measures to improve long-term sustainability of the pension system as part of a comprehensive pension reform programme

• the safeguarding of the full legal independence of ELSTAT

• full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union, in particular by making the Fiscal Council operational before finalizing the MoU and introducing quasi-automatic spending cuts in case of deviations from ambitious primary surplus targets after seeking advice from the Fiscal Council and subject to prior approval of the Institutions


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## Undertaker (Jul 13, 2015)

> structural reforms, deep rooted systemic problems, internal deep rooted economic problems



I think it should be legal to punch people in the face for using such words without detailed explanation


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 13, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> I'm bewildered why the Greek seem to fail basic math. I have no money, I'm in deep dept but why oh god why I should be be cutting my spending sharply?


I'm running low on blood! I should cut off my arm so I can get a blood infusion!


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## Sunuvmann (Jul 13, 2015)

Anyway, Europe's handling of this has been either imbecilic or evil. Depending on what their actual intent is.

How the fuck do you expect a country to pay its debt when you're destroying the economy which provides the money to pay it?

So either they're utterly incompetent, too blinded by ideology to see how they're only making things worse or they're determined to institute said ideology without regard for all the people who are hurt.

The comparisons to treaty of versailles are oh so accurate.

Do you want nazis? Because shit like this is how you get nazis.


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## baconbits (Jul 13, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Anyway, Europe's handling of this has been either imbecilic or evil. Depending on what their actual intent is.
> 
> How the fuck do you expect a country to pay its debt when you're destroying the economy which provides the money to pay it?
> 
> ...



I understand your point however I think you're too unfair to the creditors.  For years people have been telling Greece they spend too much, tax too little and have too many programs.  For years people have predicted a collapse not only in Greece but also in other states that have similar issues.  Greece never tried to change.

As much as you need money to finance an economy its ridiculous to think you can fund that economy perpetually off the back off of other states.  That's why some of the creditors were prepared to let Greece sink: its better than throwing more money into the black hole of their undisciplined spending.

To me Greece is like that cousin down in the dumps who needs money to get clothes good enough to wear to a job interview.  Unfortunately every time he gets his hands on money he's buying cocaine with it.  You can pretend that the problem is on the family that won't give the guy money.  But the real issue is the cocaine addiction.  Greece has an addiction to stupid spending.  Until they solved that (agreeing to austerity) Germany was never going to give them more.


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## stream (Jul 13, 2015)

From this article two weeks ago: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33319917


			
				some greek said:
			
		

> The EU can't afford to let us fail so we should continue to say no and they will blink and give us a better deal.


Seems to have backfired 

I'm honestly not sure it's possible to save Greece at this point. It is indeed true that complete austerity makes it almost impossible to have a functional economy. On the other hand, any money going towards Greece these days is not going to be invested in the economy. You would need unprecedented interventionism and handing over complete control to the EU to rebuild the country at this point.

If I was a Greek, I'd be putting all money I can get my hands on in a Swiss bank account, so that I can have something to live on when the inevitable happens, Greece leaves the Euro and goes back to being a third world country for the next twenty years.


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## ch1p (Jul 13, 2015)

What did I say?


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## Jersey Shore Jesus (Jul 13, 2015)

Garfield said:


> but well at least this crisis is over




Not really not until all nations free themselves from the IMF/World Bank debt system will any of this be over.


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## ch1p (Jul 13, 2015)

Austerity is a cheap way to get money, but which exacerbates a lot of other problems. People cut back by finding cheaper shit. That's usually shit that isn't made within borders, because we can't support the prices a 6 year old chinese kid practices. My mother, who's well off, went from buying clothes from a national brand, to zara (which is Spanish, but whose shit is done in Marocco, India or China). This aggravates problems. Only thing austerity can actually work with is force people to spend holidays within borders. Which isn't shabby at all, but it's not a solution.

This is the reality of these countries, they don't produce things that the lower / middle class elsewhere needs. Go check popular car and fridge brands and whose countries they belong to. They're not the ones whose economy is failing, in fact quite the opposite. I'm using these industries because they're so easily recongised, but it extends to other industries.  UK works by different rules, because its EU but not euro affiliated. The US lives above their means, but prints their own money and everyone accepts it because of how big and influencial they are.

Greece has corruption as a problem too, it's not just that their production sucks. Europe won't let the European dream die so Greece won't leave ever, but its impossible for Greece to pay this shit. This is a bandaid they'll keep ripping and applying for years to come.

I'm speaking of general problems, not specific per country. For example, Portugal has the big black hole that is private vs public health care. My parents are private, they pay 80€ for an eye consult. My godmother is public (elementary teacher), she pays 3€ and the state pays the rest. She has the luxury of asking of asking for different opinions whether she does an operation or not under the price of DVD, while my parents would have to spend almost the equivalent of minimum wage for the same. A few years back, electric engineers employed by the state electric company had the equivalent of free electricity. Same for the phone company. My grandfather was like this, he paid some ridiculous amount like 1€ while my parents had to pay the full bill, 40€ or so. There were things like free travelling and accomodations for pilots working for the national transportation agency (including partners and kids, even if travelling on their own), and so on and on. You can't change these people's previleges because the constitution doesn't allow (and to change that you need 75% of the votes of the assembly and that's never going to happen), you can only ammend them to not cover new contracts. For example, my mother's godchild works at the "national" phone company, but he pays full price at the end of the month. So the only solution is to wait until these people die. Yeah, its like that. Health care of private vs public is still the same shit that has always been though. That was never solved, because health is still public and not sold out to private like the national electricity, coms and travelling companies were. It's both a blessing and a curse. It's not really living above one's means right now. It's about having industry a mess after entering EU (precisely because it entered EU) and because some idiots 30 years ago thought it would be a great idea to give ridiculous benefits to a certain amount of people (which used to be _half the country_.


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## Garcher (Jul 13, 2015)

This should me the European Flag


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jul 13, 2015)

You know a lot of that bail money came out of the German people pocket. German workers did not work hard and pay taxes just to give them to Greece. Shame on the Greek who wants to steal money out of other people's pocket.


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## Megaharrison (Jul 13, 2015)

SHAME


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## Hand Banana (Jul 14, 2015)

And Mega delivers.


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