# What's all this fuss about Berserk ?...



## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

Ok, I had a chat with some members here about Berserk.

Seems to be a hit around these boards. It took me a while before I decided to read it, but I seriously and in all honnesty don't understand what's all this fuss about this series.

*I'm not here to bash anyone or anything*. So no flame, nor trolling by the way. I just want your opinions about Berserk and what you liked (or not) about it.

As I started the thread, I'll explain why I didn't liked it at all, with quoting a question that was asked to me in the mentionned chat :



> Solon Solute said:
> 
> 
> > How far did you get in the manga? Did you only watch the anime?
> ...



1- The story contains nothing original. We follow the random life of a random young mercenary in a random war campain in a very generic fantasy world. It could be Guts or anyone else, it wouldn't make a big difference.

2- Guts character in itself is fun at the beginning but it resolves around the same characteristics all the time. To sum it up it's a quiet-misanthropic-lonely-wolf-swinging-a-big-sword-around. We've seen that thousands of times before : basically in every 80's role playing game and fantasy worlds, specifically the "huge guy + giant sword" part.

3- For a seinen, the plot line is very shonen like : each time attacking a bigger castle with stronger knights... That they always end up defeating without significant (plot wise) losses.

4- The char design is very clich? according to me. I really laughed at the design of the armours especially.

5- Supposed strategies during attacks are, once again, totally random. The Falcon (I don't how he's called in english, but you know, the leader of the mercenaries) is supposed to be a genius, but basically his strategy is always : "we will succeed because I have faith in you guys"... That's Part I Naruto's level psychology. A guy like that would have never survived in a Middle Age like era.
And he's basically the perfect opposite of Guts : clever (supposely), warm, well manered, hansome, fighting with a small sword, dressed elegantly, etc. Very clich? one again.

6- Etc, etc, etc... I could go on, but I think I made my point.

I like fantasy worlds a lot (big fan of the Lord of the Rings, played for over a decade to AD&D, Warhammer, etc...), but Berserk is utterly simplistic according to me.

What do you guys think about it ?


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## God Movement (Dec 21, 2009)

I think you're deluded.


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

God Movement said:


> I think you're deluded.


About what ?


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## Solon Solute (Dec 21, 2009)

Everything...


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

Solon Solute said:


> Everything...



Ok... Bu that doesn't tell me why you seem to have such a high opinion of this manga.


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## ragnara (Dec 21, 2009)

Berserk isn't very good in the beginning but it gets more awesome later on.


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## Solon Solute (Dec 21, 2009)

ragnara said:


> Berserk isn't very good in the beginning but it gets more awesome later on.



I agree. Golden Age is when everything gets good.


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## Felix (Dec 21, 2009)

Dude, Berserk created the big sword badass mofo stereotype 
You say you have seen it everywhere else, because, everyone wants to be Berserk


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

Felix said:


> Dude, Berserk created the big sword badass mofo stereotype
> You say you have seen it everywhere else, because, everyone wants to be Berserk


 Might be true indeed ! At least in Asia.
There are as old archetypes of the "big sword badass mofo" in Eastern Europe too.

It seems then that I stumbled on it too late to get all the "freshness" of Guts...


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## zuul (Dec 21, 2009)

I don't like Berserk either. Not saying it's shit though, I have just never feel emotionnally invested in the cast and the fights were waaaaaaay too long for my liking.

I can understand why people like it though...

But why I don't understand is the fuss about its art. I find it pretty mediocre at best.

Don't kill me.


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

zuul said:


> I don't like Berserk either. Not saying it's shit though, I have just never feel emotionnally invested in the cast and the fights were waaaaaaay too long for my liking.
> 
> I can understand why people like it though...
> 
> ...


No one's gonna kill you ! 

Me neither, the art never carried me away.


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## Krauser-tan (Dec 21, 2009)

zuul said:


> I don't like Berserk either. Not saying it's shit though, I have just never feel emotionnally invested in the cast and the fights were waaaaaaay too long for my liking.
> 
> I can understand why people like it though...
> 
> ...



well, i can respect different opinions, but mediocre art?


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

Zaoldyeck said:


> well, i can respect different opinions, but mediocre art?


Maybe not "mediocre", but Berserk art is not what I would call outstanding.
But the problem with that point is that it remains pretty much a question of personnal tastes, hence the fact I did not mention it in the OP.


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## Blade (Dec 21, 2009)

u are kiddin right?


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## Krauser-tan (Dec 21, 2009)

miura's art evolved a lot since the beginning.


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

FireKain said:


> u are kiddin right?


I'm afraid not... 
Tastes and opinions you know... 



Zaoldyeck said:


> miura's art evolved a lot since the beginning.


Definetely.
And the picture you linked is pretty impressive, I agree.


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## Blade (Dec 21, 2009)

probably this, but sometimes some opinions can start ''wars'' , watch it


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## Quelsatron (Dec 21, 2009)

Did you read through the eclipse?


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## Lord Genome (Dec 21, 2009)

Yeah not going to lie but its the Golden Age arc that really shines


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## Solon Solute (Dec 21, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> Did you read through the eclipse?



He says he read through the first 15 Volumes, then stopped for reasons stated above.


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> Did you read through the eclipse?


I don't know...
I read all the Golden Age Arc and a bit afterwards : when they are planning to free the Falcon from his jail. I stopped there. I guess the Eclipse Arc is not included in this.

Because, to tell you all the story, I borrowed the first 40 volumes to a friend. Everytime I saw him  he was asking me how Berserk was going. I always answered him : "Well, it's ok, but nothing realling catchy for me". His anwser was always identical : "Read a bit more further, you'll see, it gets awesome after that."

I gave up after 15 volumes since, apparently, I never got to that "it gets awesome after that" part...


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## Solon Solute (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> I don't know...
> *I read all the Golden Age Arc and a bit afterwards *: when they are planning to free the Falcon from his jail. I stopped there. *I guess the Eclipse Arc is not included in this*.
> 
> Because, to tell you all the story,* I borrowed the first 40 volumes to a friend*. Everytime I saw him  he was asking me how Berserk was going. I always answered him : "Well, it's ok, but nothing realling catchy for me". His anwser was always identical : "Read a bit more further, you'll see, it gets awesome after that."
> ...



...


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

Solon Solute said:


> ...


And your point is ?...


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## The Imp (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> I don't know...
> I read all the Golden Age Arc and a bit afterwards : when they are planning to free the Falcon from his jail. I stopped there. I guess the Eclipse Arc is not included in this.
> 
> Because, to tell you all the story, I borrowed the first 40 volumes to a friend. Everytime I saw him  he was asking me how Berserk was going. I always answered him : "Well, it's ok, but nothing realling catchy for me". His anwser was always identical : "Read a bit more further, you'll see, it gets awesome after that."
> ...



I just checked and volume 15 has already wrapped up the eclipse and the golden age which is Berserk at it's best. If you still don't like it at this point there isn't any reason to really read more.


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

This thread is totally going out of control...

My point was to learn what people liked in Berserk and now it all resolves around my dislike of this series...
(I didn't help to make it stick to my question though.)


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## Nightfall (Dec 21, 2009)

Eclipse was the peak, can't say I'm all fanboy mode over the Kushan arc though....


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## robotnik (Dec 21, 2009)

what's the deal with airline food


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## Quelsatron (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> I don't know...
> *I read all the Golden Age Arc and a bit afterwards : when they are planning to free the Falcon from his jail. I stopped there.* I guess the Eclipse Arc is not included in this.
> 
> Because, to tell you all the story, I borrowed the first 40 volumes to a friend. Everytime I saw him  he was asking me how Berserk was going. I always answered him : "Well, it's ok, but nothing realling catchy for me". His anwser was always identical : "Read a bit more further, you'll see, it gets awesome after that."
> ...



Well, I advice you to at the very least read through the eclipse, it's one of the most well-known parts of the series and with good reason. It's also not very far away from where you stopped so you won't have to force your way through half the series to get to it.


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## yo586 (Dec 21, 2009)

My love for Berserk has been tried the past 3 or so years with the lethargic release dates, but it still remains a top 5 manga for me.

Mostly, it is just the epic dark environment Miura puts together so damn well that made me fall in love.  This is seinen at its best, resplendent with gory fierce battle scenes and chilling rape that makes you really hate the bad guys. 

Is the story cliche?  Most definitely.  Then again, I'm not really into hero mangas for the originality.  Even though it is archetypical, there is enough depth given to the characters to keep them believable enough that you don't roll your eyes all the time.  Guts himself is the most epic of heroes, stuck in a living hell and driven by righteous hate to destroy the manifestation of evil, who just happened to be his best friend.  

Add this together with some of the best visuals ever in a manga (I don't get how anyone can hate on the drawing), the unrestricted seinen nature, visceral fight scenes, and a likable cast and you get manga magic :-D


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## Solon Solute (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> And your point is ?...



1. Apprently you never actually read up to Vol. 15 (or you would've known what the eclipse was)
2. There aren't even 40 Volumes out yet (theres only 34).
3. Volume 15 is a good deal after eclipse.


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## Blade (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> I borrowed the first 40 volumes to a friend.




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA


ok....got it


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## Quelsatron (Dec 21, 2009)

Solon Solute said:


> 1. Apprently you never actually read up to Vol. 15 (or you would've known what the eclipse was)
> 2. There aren't even 40 Volumes out yet (theres only 34).
> 3. Volume 15 is a good deal after eclipse.



Obviously the volumes that he's reading are smaller or something similar, didn't he mantion he wasn't english?


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## Yashamaru (Dec 21, 2009)

Solon Solute said:


> 1. Apprently you never actually read up to Vol. 15 (or you would've known what the eclipse was)
> 2. There aren't even 40 Volumes out yet (theres only 34).
> 3. Volume 15 is a good deal after eclipse.


1. I might have been wrong on the number. A fact that doesn't change anything about not finding anything great to this series. I've read enough to know the Falcon ended up tortured in jail, that Guts left for a year or so the mercenary troup and then came back, etc, etc, etc... 
2. I might have been wrong on the number. A fact that doesn't change anything about not finding anything great to this series..
3. I might have been wrong on the... Do I really need to repeat myself ?



Quelsatron said:


> Obviously the volumes that he's reading are smaller or something similar, didn't he mantion he wasn't english?


And this too.

I read french volumes of the series and there ARE differences from a manga editor to another.
Typically, in France Dragon Ball volumes are actually equivalent of two english volumes. We only have the double edition still available...
Furthermore, I've an old edition of Berserk (there was an attempt of making mangas popular in France in the early 90's but it was a failure and many comic editors lost quite a bunch of money in the process) and the editor gave up editing it a while ago already... Before a new editor re-edited the series with new package and all.
So please, stop taking me for moron.


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## Solon Solute (Dec 21, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> Obviously the volumes that he's reading are smaller or something similar, didn't he mantion he wasn't english?



Berserk volumes aren't shortend, especially the books, (except for single chapter with the Idea of Evil).


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## zuul (Dec 21, 2009)

yo586 said:


> Add this together with some of the best visuals ever in a manga (I don't get how anyone can hate on the drawing), the unrestricted seinen nature, visceral fight scenes, and a likable cast and you get manga magic :-D



I didn't say I hated it just that I didn't like it. Mediocre = average not bad.


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## Aldric (Dec 21, 2009)

Where Berserk shines is in the characterization and the art

Calling the character design "cliché" is nothing short of trolling, there's no other mangaka with an artstyle remotely resembling Miura's

To each his own but the complaints in this thread are really weak


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## Tash (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> 1- The story contains nothing original. We follow the random life of a random young mercenary in a random war campain in a very generic fantasy world. It could be Guts or anyone else, it wouldn't make a big difference.



How much of Beserk did you read exactly?

Because this makes it sound as if you haven't gotten to the Eclipse even.



> 2- Guts character in itself is fun at the beginning but it resolves around the same characteristics all the time. To sum it up it's a quiet-misanthropic-lonely-wolf-swinging-a-big-sword-around. We've seen that thousands of times before : basically in every 80's role playing game and fantasy worlds, specifically the "huge guy + giant sword" part.


Seriously, if you think the story is just about BIG DUDE KILLIN SHIT you either haven't read it top to bottom or haven't been paying attention.

How about the fact that the Gutts is trying to deal with the morbid condition of his life brought on by his best friend?



> 3- For a seinen, the plot line is very shonen like : each time attacking a bigger castle with stronger knights... That they always end up defeating without significant (plot wise) losses.



I guess the genocide of his entire army, and watching his girlfriend being raped and mindfucked to basically a vegetative state doesn't count as a significant loss.



> 4- The char design is very cliché according to me. I really laughed at the design of the armours especially.


Beserk character designs own.



> 5- Supposed strategies during attacks are, once again, totally random. The Falcon (I don't how he's called in english, but you know, the leader of the mercenaries) is supposed to be a genius, but basically his strategy is always : "we will succeed because I have faith in you guys"... That's Part I Naruto's level psychology. A guy like that would have never survived in a Middle Age like era.
> And he's basically the perfect opposite of Guts : clever (supposely), warm, well manered, hansome, fighting with a small sword, dressed elegantly, etc. Very cliché one again.


Who even cares about this shit?


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## Tash (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> I don't know...
> I read all the Golden Age Arc and a bit afterwards : when they are planning to free the Falcon from his jail. I stopped there.



welp


**


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## αshɘs (Dec 21, 2009)

Well it's true,that Berserk gets a lot more praise on this site compared to other great seinen series.And I'm not that impressed with the latest arcs(moreso with the release schedules,but that's a different story),but to me Golden Age Arc for example was plain awesome,Berserk at it's peak.
The illustration,character interactions,characterizations and so on.^^

edit: btw the Falcon is called Griffith.:ho


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## Han Solo (Dec 21, 2009)

The only thing I could take seriousy was that indeed, the "tactics" used aren't smart at all.

But thats it.


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## αshɘs (Dec 21, 2009)

Tash said:


> Seriously, if you think the story is just about BIG DUDE KILLIN SHIT you either haven't read it top to bottom or haven't been paying attention.



Thought the same actually.
Reminds me of the SAO complain thread a bit


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## Perseverance (Dec 21, 2009)

Hi, if you don't think berserk has plot or anything, *i'd reallllllly love to know what manga you think does have it.*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Would be fucking hilarious if you said something like Naruto


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## Dream Brother (Dec 21, 2009)

_Berserk_ is an interesting case for me...

I view it as one of those series' that could have been so much more than it was -- a series that, at its best, could stand up in the top tier of manga, and yet somehow fell down a slippery slope into mediocrity. Same goes for _Hajime no Ippo_. 



> 1- The story contains nothing original. We follow the random life of a random young mercenary in a random war campain in a very generic fantasy world. It could be Guts or anyone else, it wouldn't make a big difference.



It starts off this way, sure. If you've read on, however, you would know that this Medieval-esque normality quickly dissolves into a fantasy-soaked nightmare, with The Eclipse being the most obvious 'pivot point', but there were plenty of signs/elements before that, too. Hell, the very beginning of the manga indicates this, before it switches into flashback mode. The irony (at least to me) is that when the series was in this clich?, more 'normal' setting, it was actually at its best. It goes to show that originality isn't everything -- it's more about the _execution_. During the flashback arc, there were so little surreal/demonic elements that the characters seemed to take much more focus and weight -- after The Eclipse, it's almost like the nightmarish quality was so powerful that it swallowed everything whole, including much of what made the series so good. (There are exceptions, of course...one or two flashes of vintage _Berserk_ here and there, but on the whole the manga turned into sludge.)



> 2- Guts character in itself is fun at the beginning but it resolves around the same characteristics all the time. To sum it up it's a quiet-misanthropic-lonely-wolf-swinging-a-big-sword-around. We've seen that thousands of times before : basically in every 80's role playing game and fantasy worlds, specifically the "huge guy + giant sword" part.



It's true that a lot of his character is quite conventional/static, but you neglected to mention the growth it takes as a result of Griffith, and in particular that moment where Guts overhears Griffith speaking to Charlotte, about how a true friend would follow his own dream, even if it meant going against him. It always reminded me of Blake's quote: 'Opposition is true friendship.' I think it was an interesting move to have the protagonist voluntarily decide to break away from the utterly charismatic leader figure, simply through hearing that little snippet of conversation. It was also odd and twisted, because I think Guts did it out of a strange desire for Griffith's approval, more than anything else -- he wanted to be free, but he also desperately wanted Griffith to regard him as an equal rather than a simple underling. Guts certainly isn't a complex/highly original character, but moments like that show that he can be interesting. At any rate, the protagonist is usually less interesting than some of the key characters he encounters...very common in storytelling, and not a big deal to me, as I've enjoyed plenty of stories that feature an average protagonist but wonderful other main characters.

As for the strategies/etc, I don't think that's the point of the series, so I never really paid it much attention. The emphasis is far more on characters, fate and morality. As I mentioned, I have mixed feelings on the series as a whole, but The Eclipse is easily one of the most emotionally impacting moments in any field of fiction that I've come across, and the Golden Age arc was highly enjoyable. I view the work as one of those 'highly flawed but showing immense potential/execution at certain times' series'. It's frustratingly inconsistent, but worth it just for the flashes of gold.


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## SogeQueen (Dec 21, 2009)

I read about 60 chapters of Berserk in about 3 days, but then got kind of tired of it. I haven't read it in about 3 weeks. There's nothing I would really fault it for, but I just found it all a bit morbid and depressing (pathetic, I know ) and hearing about some of the events later in the manga, I just don't think it's for me.


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## Mizura (Dec 21, 2009)

Felix said:


> Dude, Berserk created the big sword badass mofo stereotype
> You say you have seen it everywhere else, because, everyone wants to be Berserk


Oooh, I always thought FFVII was responsible for the big sword badass mofo stereotype, but you're right! Berserk dates to before it!

If Yashamaru read Berserk in French, it may have to do then with the fact that he lives in France. French and Belgian comics ("Bandes Dessin?es") have a fair share of dark historical-ish content within fantasy-ish settings, such as Thorgal and the likes. And they're in A4 and in color. Compared to those, it may be possible that Berserk may not seem to offer that much new content, and does it at a slower pace, or something.

I admit I never managed to get into Berserk myself, but then again I might just not be into the genre much...


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## MdB (Dec 21, 2009)

How can the overall art direction be generic and cliche when it's deviating from the conventional to a significant extend?

Look at the distinction.




*Spoiler*: __


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## Quelsatron (Dec 21, 2009)

MdB said:


> How can the overall art direction be generic and cliche when it's deviating from the conventional to a significant extend?
> 
> Look at the distinction.
> 
> ...


To be fair, early berserk had pretty meh art


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## MdB (Dec 21, 2009)

But there were still too many features to call it inherently generic.


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## Wuzzman (Dec 21, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> Ok, I had a chat with some members here about Berserk.
> 
> Seems to be a hit around these boards. It took me a while before I decided to read it, but I seriously and in all honnesty don't understand what's all this fuss about this series.
> 
> ...



Are you a troll?


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## Fran (Dec 21, 2009)




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## seaofjealousy (Dec 21, 2009)

April fools came a bit early this year, at least read a wikipedia article about it dude.


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## p-lou (Dec 21, 2009)

for a series that gets so much effect out of its gritty and dark atmosphere with a pretty realistic visual portrayal of the world, the anatomy of the human characters can be down right goofy at times.  and that is really distracting.


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## c3zz4rr (Dec 22, 2009)

I haven't read the old chapters from berserk for quite a while now but can you show me a moment when the anatomy of the human characters was goofy?


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## Solon Solute (Dec 22, 2009)




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## Yashamaru (Dec 22, 2009)

Tash said:


> Seriously, if you think the story is just about BIG DUDE KILLIN SHIT you either haven't read it top to bottom or haven't been paying attention.


Never said that.  I'm just saying that Guts characteristics have been seen over and over already. Typically, it's a RPG archetypal character that has been showed COUNTLESS times...



> I guess the genocide of his entire army, and watching his girlfriend being raped and mindfucked to basically a vegetative state doesn't count as a significant loss.


Sorry, but in the Golden Age Arc, things go pretty smoothly. For a seinen that is supposed to be dark and grim, it was quite easy going.



> Beserk character designs own.


Question of taste and furthermore, you should get more art from fantasy worlds. You will see it's not as owning as you say.


> Who even cares about this shit?


Well, would it be you who missed the point of a middle age style fighting manga ? Tactics are supposed to be a nodal point when fighting, one on one or with an entire army. And strategically speaking, Berserk is just : . But then again, it might just be me who's too sensitive about that matter.



Perseverance said:


> Hi, if you don't think berserk has plot or anything, *i'd reallllllly love to know what manga you think does have it.*


Once again, never said that !  I'm just saying that for a seinen, the plot line of what I've read is utterly simple. To the point it becomes disapointing.

Read *MPD Psycho* if you want a seinen with a REAL plot. Read *Kami no Itadaki* if you want a REAL plot. Read Testuya Tsuitsui's seinen if you want a REAL plot... 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Would be fucking hilarious if you said something like Naruto


Don't take me for a moron...



Mizura said:


> French and Belgian comics ("Bandes Dessinées") have a fair share of dark historical-ish content within fantasy-ish settings, such as Thorgal and the likes. And they're in A4 and in color. Compared to those, it may be possible that Berserk may not seem to offer that much new content, and does it at a slower pace, or something.


Indeed. 
France has huge medieval background and patrimony, so yes, from my point of view, Berserk design looks really cheap and cliché. Seriously, the supposed top notch knights of the castle they attack at the end of the Golden Age arc are laughable...



MdB said:


> How can the overall art direction be generic and cliche when it's deviating from the conventional to a significant extend?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


These are typically things I've seen countless times. Especially in the Chaos creatures displayed in Warhammer universe (just as an example). Since the early 80's...

Berserk's mangaka is not a bad drawer (at least, after a while, because at the begening...) but he's not displaying an incredible originality, to say the least... Aside from some panels, there's nothing really outstanding in Berserk art.

I told you, I may have stumbled on Berserk too late to appreciate it to its full extend, but it remains an average manga to me...


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## Sasori (Dec 22, 2009)

There is tits and rape.

I don't know how you can be disappointed.


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## Mizura (Dec 22, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> Indeed.
> France has huge medieval background and patrimony, so yes, from my point of view, Berserk design looks really cheap and cliché. Seriously, the supposed top notch knights of the castle they attack at the end of the Golden Age arc are laughable...


Aaaah, it must be that then.

Guys, in the U.S., comics are mostly about superheroes and such, but in European comics, a faire portion of them are historical, fantasy, or a combination of both. In A4. And in color. You probably don't know many though because the French do a terrible job exporting most of those for some reason. 

Some are in a cartoonish, humor-like style, but many are more oriented towards the more dark, adult and realistic styles as well. They target themes such as the French Revolution, Colonial history, Medieval periods and Crusades, and older civilizations (Roman, Viking, etc.), and they can get quite bloody. And yes, they have tits and rape too, not to mention a fair share of beheading or others (I remember a scene of corrupt priests pushing naked girls tied to rocks into a pond. The reasoning is that if they were possessed by the devil, the water would reject them and they'd float up. If they sank and drowned, well whoops, too bad. Well, that's just one scene).

For people who grew up reading those at the library (in A4 and in color), a portrayal of Medieval Europe by a foreigner with fantasy elements added in may thus not seem that novel.

Yashamaru, let me guess, you probably didn't even realize that this may have influenced your view of Berserk?


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## Yashamaru (Dec 22, 2009)

Mizura said:


> Yashamaru, let me guess, you probably didn't even realize that this may have influenced your view of Berserk?


You are guessing well. 

Or more precisely, being familiar with medieval tales, iconography and background, made Berserk not living up to my personnal experiences of hero?c fantasy stories and games. (Without trying to sound cocky, I've basically spent 15 years of my life immersed in fantasy medival universes.)


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## Mizura (Dec 22, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> You are guessing well.
> 
> Or more precisely, being familiar with medieval tales, iconography and background, made Berserk not living up to my personnal experiences of heroïc fantasy stories and games. (Without trying to sound cocky, I've basically spent 15 years of my life immersed in fantasy medival universes.)


Hahah, that wouldn't have been strange at all if you grew up in France. The traditions are just different compared to the U.S. market, where the focus is more on the superhero genre. European countries such as France and Belgian pick up medieval stuff much like... well... Japanese picking up stuff on samurai and such? It's more integral to their history and culture.

I personally didn't find Berserk appealing just because I didn't get into the style, but that's it I guess.

Also, in terms of styles and mindfuck, European comics really don't lose to Japanese comics, European comic artists are more free to treat their works as art rather than commercial products (though it may mean super slow releases, storylines that may not agree with the masses etc.). I'm personally a big fan of Enki Bilal's comics for example. It isn't strange for someone who grew up in that environment to find any improvements offered by Berserk and the likes to be incremental at best, and most likely underwhelming.


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## Aldric (Dec 22, 2009)

I grew up in France too and I don't find anything wrong with Berserk

His complaints seem to have more to do with him being a huge fan of medieval history/fantasy and not finding Berserk anything special compared to other dozens of books comics and games on the subject


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## Mizura (Dec 22, 2009)

Aldric said:


> I grew up in France too and I don't find anything wrong with Berserk
> 
> His complaints seem to have more to do with him being a huge fan of medieval history/fantasy and not finding Berserk anything special *compared to other dozens of books comics and games on the subject*


Um, that's the point. Yashamaru's title was "what's all this fuss"? His complaints include "nothing original, cliche, simplistic, etc." Those are complaints by someone who has read enough of the genre to not be impressed by something similar.

By contrast, someone who grew up with superhero comics or with more regular manga would definitely find Berserk to be a lot more original and be more impressed with the dark style. You say "you don't find anything wrong with Berserk." Would you qualify Berserk as the "most awesome and original comic work ever", All comic genres included? I'm impressed by the sheer quantity of pages involved in Berserk compared to European comics, but that isn't very helpful if the plot drags on.

I've always been in the French education system and I went to college in France. With the days I spent squatting the Fnac, I know I'm definitely more used to darker and more f*cked up comic styles thanks to French comics. It doesn't matter if there are no other Japanese manga like it, if Yashamaru is comparing it to another category.


----------



## iamthewalrus (Dec 22, 2009)

long post, but I read yours so you should read mine

don't quite understand you reasoning.  You say berserk is mediocre compared to the fantasy/medieval lit you've read yourself, but how is this case different to any other manga?  You can say that for a lot of different mangas when comparing them to literature.  Of course a manga story is going to be mediocre when comparing a story from a different media to it, a comic's strength is the execution of telling a story visually, sometimes the originality doesn't matter as much.

I like berserk because although its mediocre compared to other fantasy lit like you said, it is not mediocre when comparing it to any other manga out there.  How many other manga do you see that has detailed artwork (especially later chapters), big gore fights, and character development altogether in one?  You may say berserk does those things poorly, but when comparing to actual manga and not other forms of storytelling, it actually does a nice job.  

in summary, yes, berserk is generic to people who read fantasy literature.  However, no other manga goes deeper into the genre as much as berserk does.  This makes berserk refreshing and fun to manga readers because frankly, there is no other manga out there that does it better.

and all in all manga is just to entertain.  Berserk is the best manga that  uses medieval/fantasy setting and tropes so its considered unique compared to other mangas.  thats why people like it.


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## Jazzmatazz (Dec 22, 2009)

Berserk stands in my own personal Parthenon of non-sports related entertainment. I love every thing about it. Even the early weaksauce art of Miura if only because it's fun to re-read each volume and see how he gradually goes from being mediocre to one of the best damn mangakas in the biz. 

I can feel you on why you don't see what the big deal is, but I can't see what the big deal with One Piece, the alleged best of the holy shonen trinity. 

BUT, I also think your upbringing with tons and tons of medieval lit has somewhat jaded you to anything relatively new, as I'm sure you've only recently come to read Berserk.

It's probably like me and scifi, anything to do with aliens, space travel, and general future type stuff. I've spent my whole life eat sleep and breathing scifi that anything new has to live up to a BIG standard before I consider it good. And it's really to no fault of the new title.

So, I doubt anyone here can convince you that Berserk is one of the best mangas out there if you haven't already. Either you believe it or you don't.


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## Mizura (Dec 22, 2009)

> You say berserk is mediocre compared to the fantasy/medieval lit you've read yourself, but how is this case different to any other manga?


See, most other manga aren't the fantasy/medieval genre. That's it.  Likewise, Japanese readers probably won't be impressed by the best-written French comic on Samurai and such.

I remember when I was small I went to see a Japanese theater dance performance. It alternated between traditional Japanese-style performances (with fans and such) and western style performances (singing and tap-dancing). I found the western-style performances weak-ass but really liked the Japanese-style performances. However when I was walking out, my mom said the western-style performances were okay but the Japanese-style performance was so-so. It turned out that she's seen her share of good traditional Japanese performances, so obviously her points of view aren't the same.

It's not a direct insult to those who did enjoy the performance though, there's no helping what your background accustomed you to and what it didn't.



> It's probably like me and scifi, anything to do with aliens, space travel, and general future type stuff. I've spent my whole life eat sleep and breathing scifi that anything new has to live up to a BIG standard before I consider it good. And it's really to no fault of the new title.


Probably yeah. The thing is, Yashamaru probably didn't realize at first that his own background and interests made his views different from those who didn't have the same background as him. When you're used to something, you assume others should see things in the same way you do. It's like me and that Japanese performance. I did assume that everybody would have found the Japanese part more enjoyable and the Western part less so, but in truth a person used to Japanese culture would probably have enjoyed the Western part more.


----------



## Aldric (Dec 23, 2009)

Mizura said:


> Um, that's the point. Yashamaru's title was "what's all this fuss"? His complaints include "nothing original, cliche, simplistic, etc." Those are complaints by someone who has read enough of the genre to not be impressed by something similar.
> .



But this has fuck all to do with him growing up in France

Which is the point



> By contrast, someone who grew up with superhero comics or with more regular manga would definitely find Berserk to be a lot more original and be more impressed with the dark style. You say "you don't find anything wrong with Berserk." Would you qualify Berserk as the "most awesome and original comic work ever", All comic genres included? I'm impressed by the sheer quantity of pages involved in Berserk compared to European comics, but that isn't very helpful if the plot drags on.



First I don't know what this fixation with originality is, no I don't think Berserk is particularly original and no I don't think something should be original to be good

Then why do you keep mentioning "people who grew up with superhero comic or regular manga", I can tell you that French kids don't grow up reading fantasy and historically accurate comics about the middle ages, this is something only people who're passionate about this particular subject read about, and fantasy/history "nerds" (I can't find a better word but this isn't supposed to be insulting) can be found in every country

Therefore it's just that Yashamaru isn't impressed by Berserk because it doesn't meet his standards as a long time fantasy fan, it has nothing to do with France's supposed grittier comics 



> I've always been in the French education system and I went to college in France. With the days I spent squatting the Fnac, I know I'm definitely more used to darker and more f*cked up comic styles thanks to French comics. It doesn't matter if there are no other Japanese manga like it, if Yashamaru is comparing it to another category



You seem to be under the impression Berserk fans like the manga because of a juvenile fascination for gore and "fucked up" things, it's a bit insulting

As I said what personally drew me to the manga is the characterization and how these people felt very much alive and credible to me

I don't care if Miura's armor design is cliché or if the tactics used aren't historically accurate or if random comic A has more bloody rape or whatever, I find chapters like A Feeble Flame fascinating in the way they portray those fictional characters as living breathing people

I also love the artstyle


----------



## Mizura (Dec 23, 2009)

> Then why do you keep mentioning "people who grew up with superhero comic or regular manga", I can tell you that French kids don't grow up reading fantasy and historically accurate comics about the middle ages, this is something only people who're passionate about this particular subject read about, and fantasy/history "nerds" (I can't find a better word but this isn't supposed to be insulting) can be found in every country


No, him growing up in France made all that *more likely*, just like Japanese readers are Much more likely to be familiar with historically accurate samurai stories and Chinese readers are much more likely to be familiar with all manners of Chinese legends. Sure, there are Japanese history buffs in other countries, but they can't just walk into a store and find all the latest samurai novels. I'm not sure where you're living now, but all those French comics for example are just about impossible to find outside of France.

I've lived in 5 countries in 3 continents, and the cultural context you grow up in Does make a big difference. A Chinese student would be a lot less familiar with European history, whereas European kids would usually know squat of Chinese history. The Chinese reign at Ping-Pong but suck completely at football. Why? Because Chinese people from kids to old people consider ping-pong as a national sport. Many Chinese, in fact most Chinese don't play ping-pong, and people in other countries play ping-pong as well, but that cultural context does make a big difference.



> You seem to be under the impression Berserk fans like the manga because of a juvenile fascination for gore and "fucked up" things, it's a bit insulting


Where the hell did I call it "juvenile fascination"? If I meant that, it'd mean that I was first and foremost insulting European comics, and that's certainly not the case. I like dark weird stuff myself, it's not an issue of maturity. I consider Picasso's paintings to be dark and fucked up too. It's a matter of being used to a certain style or not. Have you ever read Enki Bilal's comics? Those are a very good example of what I consider dark and fucked up, but I love his comics and consider Enki Bilal to be a genius.


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## Yashamaru (Dec 23, 2009)

iamthewalrus said:


> long post, but I read yours so you should read mine


No need to take it this way ! 



> Of course a manga story is going to be mediocre when comparing a story from a different media to it.


Not always, thank God. Otherwise, mangas and comics would not exist if they were automatically more mediocre than other media.



> A comic's strength is the execution of telling a story visually, sometimes the originality doesn't matter as much.


This is something I have to disagree with. FIERCLY.  Originality always matters, what ever the media/story may be. A quick example to demonstrate my point.
Take the recent movie Avatar. It is, visually, tremendously well done. It is something we never saw before and therefore owns the right to be remembered. But the plot is an abyssal fall into clichés and triviality... Making overall, the movie disappointing and not that remarkable.
A manga is a media mixing both elements, and one cannot be neglected in regard of the other. Both need to be well handled, otherwise, what would be the point of making a manga ?




> Berserk is the best manga that  uses medieval/fantasy setting and tropes.


Well, that's just an opinion, and not a fact. From my point of view, Claymore succeeds way more in setting a dark, original medieval universe than Berserk.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 23, 2009)

I don't mean to nitpick but originality in this day and age is rare, fiction has been around for a long time and almost everything has been done, some overdone. As long as the execution, characters, arts, fights etc are good it should'nt matter if it's been done before. But to each their own.


----------



## Inugami (Dec 23, 2009)

What's all this fuss about Naruto ?...


----------



## Yashamaru (Dec 23, 2009)

Oxvial said:


> What's all this fuss about Naruto ?...


Hey, no one forced you to come here in the first place. 

So if you're not here to bring any new element...


----------



## iamthewalrus (Dec 23, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> No need to take it this way !


lol yeah that smiley was just for funsies 




> Not always, thank God. Otherwise, mangas and comics would not exist if they were automatically more mediocre than other media.



what i'm trying to say is if someone who is in a similar situation as yourself, for instance has an extensive background in psychological thrillers; that person will likely think mangas such as Monster are mediocre, which is in contrast to most who've read that manga and think its great.  So in that perspective I think this could apply to most mangas (that are of a popular genre).




> This is something I have to disagree. FIERCLY.  Originality always matters, what ever the media/story may be. A quick example to demonstrate my point.
> Take the recent movie Avatar. It is, visually, tremendously well done. It is something we never saw before and therefore owns the right to be remembered. But the plot is an abyssal fall into clich?s and triviality... Making overall, the movie disappointing and not that remarkable.
> A manga is a media mixing both elements, and one cannot be neglected in regard of the other. Both need to be well handled, otherwise, what would be the point of making a manga ?



Well like avatar, I think manga can be forgiven when its trying to bring out the best at what an artform can do.  Both things try to express certain parts of their story visually.  What part i'm thinking of is probably the famous scene of berserk, the eclipse.  
During those couple chapters, there is hardly any dialogue to be seen, and you're meant just to watch these horrible things being done to gutt's companions and feel the emotion of having to be in gutt's position.  When I saw the fury in gutts eyes during griffith's betrayal, i was able to buy into how much pain and anger he must be feeling, as he slowly became the pure definition of an avenger.

This is pretty much why people read berserk, to recapture the feelings they had from the visuals during the eclipse.  No words needed to be said during that, yet it is the most powerful scene in the manga.  in order for this scene to work you would have had to buy into the build up, which i know you didnt.  

by the way I know i'm getting sidetracked from your main viewpoints, but I just thought I'd express how I think movies and comics are worthwhile if emotion can be felt during a strong visual scene, and regardless if the story is cliche.
With that said, that is why I think berserk is a highly regarded manga and in my mind (I enjoyed the movie despite some cheesy Hollywood moments) why Avatar somewhat succeeded.  pandora's ecology and environments were easily the best part about the movie for me.



> Well, that's just an opinion, and not a fact. From my point of view, Claymore succeeds way more in setting a dark, original medieval universe than Berserk.



yeah, for most people its really just a toss up between claymore and berserk.  They are both basically a revenge story.


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## HeOf7 (Dec 23, 2009)

I still like berserk I watched all the Anime, own several of the manga volumes but it is a tad over rated in my opinion.

 A lot of people are like Guts is the most badass character ever when quite frankly hes not that original.

 Basically everyone who isn’t a main character gets slaughtered by demons, and then Guts comes and effortlessly butchers the demons. 

 Puck is consistently eye roll inducing unfunny.

 And I don’t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.

 I also remember reading a volume and basically nothing happening.


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## The Imp (Dec 23, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> And I don?t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.



 **


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## Inugami (Dec 23, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> Hey, no one forced you to come here in the first place.
> 
> So if you're not here to bring any new element...



What's all this fuss about you?...


----------



## Ralphy♥ (Dec 23, 2009)

Its purely subjective, many adore the Berserk series while others reject it outright.


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## Ennoea (Dec 23, 2009)

Its just an opinion, having said that regardless of your opinion about the art style, anyone who calls it mediocre is being silly.

And you should atleast read through the eclipse, theres where most of the character development stems from.


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## Yashamaru (Dec 24, 2009)

Oxvial said:


> What's all this fuss about you?...


... You're one annoying little bug, aren't you ?



Ennoea said:


> And you should atleast read through the eclipse, theres where most of the character development stems from.


Disappointing to have to wait over fifteen volumes of the series to see major character developments, don't you think ?


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## Inugami (Dec 24, 2009)

Yashamaru said:


> Disappointing to have to wait over fifteen volumes of the series to see major character developments, don't you think ?



... You're one annoying little bug, aren't you ?


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 24, 2009)

If this wasn't a hilariously bad thread to begin with, Heof7's post has catapulted it into the anus of NF.


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## DocTerror (Dec 24, 2009)

Wait so you only read around the first 40-50 or so chapters out of 300 and your questioning peoples motives for liking what you call a generic manga?


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## Quelsatron (Dec 24, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> And I don’t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.



*Searches for those two titles on wikipedia*


> List of hentai anime



I'm sorry, but you are retarded.


----------



## MdB (Dec 24, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> I still like berserk I watched all the Anime, own several of the manga volumes but it is a tad over rated in my opinion.
> 
> A lot of people are like Guts is the most badass character ever when quite frankly hes not that original.
> 
> ...



Don't worry, I'm sure Michael Bay's next movie will entertain you more.



HeOf7 said:


> And I don?t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.


----------



## TargaryenX (Dec 24, 2009)

Why is everyone arguing with this guy?

HE HASN'T READ PAST THE ECLIPSE

His arguments are all fairly valid for the first part, but to apply them to the manga as a whole is wrong. The first part is just setting the stage, you can't judge it based on that.


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## HeOf7 (Dec 24, 2009)

ಡ-ಡ I think someone’s getting a little EMOtional over make-believe graphic-novels.


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## KidTony (Dec 24, 2009)

it is the best manga of all time.


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## HeOf7 (Dec 24, 2009)

Quelsatron said:


> *Searches for those two titles on wikipedia*
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but you are retarded.




If  you’re taking this seriously it really says more about your intellect then anything so


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## OmegaTrooper (Dec 24, 2009)

you poor, foolish soul...


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## Ralphy♥ (Dec 24, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> ಡ-ಡ I think someone’s getting a little EMOtional over make-believe graphic-novels.


It's an artistic form of literature, if someones infatuated with it; they have every right in expressing it.


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## Lord Genome (Dec 24, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> And I don?t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.


wat                       .


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## Haohmaru (Dec 24, 2009)

lol wtf indeed


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## Fran (Dec 24, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> And I don’t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.



   

lolwut? Sigged.


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## Deathbringerpt (Dec 25, 2009)

Ok, i was going to stay away from this thread since it's already a bomb waiting to explode but i gotta post now. It's of utmost importance that i post.



> And I don’t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.







This actually happened by the way. I actually coughed blood the moment i read this.


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## HeOf7 (Dec 25, 2009)

Deathbringerpt said:


> This actually happened by the way. I actually coughed blood the moment i read this.



Coughing up blood is the spitting up of blood or bloody mucus from the lungs and throat (respiratory tract).

Hemoptysis is the medical term for coughing up blood from the respiratory tract.

Considerations
Coughing up blood is not the same as bleeding from the mouth, throat, or gastrointestinal tract.

Blood that comes up with a cough often looks bubbly because it is mixed with air and mucus. It is usually bright red, although it may be rust-colored. Sometimes the mucus may only contain streaks of blood.

Causes
A number of conditions, diseases, and medical tests may make you cough up blood.

Diseases and conditions may include:

Blood clot in the lung 
Bronchiectasis 
Bronchitis 
Cancer 
Cystic fibrosis 
Goodpasture's syndrome 
Inflammation of the blood vessels in the lung (vasculitis) 
Inhaling blood into the lungs (pulmonary aspiration) 
Irritation of the throat from violent coughing 
Nosebleed that drips blood down into the lungs 
Laryngitis 
Pneumonia 
Pulmonary edema 
Systemic lupus erythematosus 
Tuberculosis 
Diagnostic tests that can make you cough up blood include:

Bronchoscopy 
Laryngoscopy 
Lung biopsy 
Mediastinoscopy 
Spirometry 
Tonsillectomy 
Upper airway biopsy 
Home Care
Cough suppressants may help if this condition is due to throat irritation from violent coughing. However, cough suppressants may lead to airways obstruction in some cases. Always check with your doctor before using them.

It is very important to note how long you cough up blood, and how much blood is mixed with the mucus.

Also look out for these signs of severe blood loss:

Dizziness 
Light-headedness 
Thirst 
Other symptoms:

Blood in the urine 
Chest pain 
Fever 
Shortness of breath 
When to Contact a Medical Professional
If you have any unexplained coughing up of blood, call an ambulance or go to the nearest emergency department. This is very important if your cough produces large volumes of blood (more than a few teaspoons), or if you also have:

Dizziness 
Light-headedness 
Severe shortness of breath 
What to Expect at Your Office Visit
In an emergency case, your doctor will give you treatments to control your condition. The doctor will then ask you questions about your cough such as:

Type 
Are you coughing up large amounts of blood (massive hemoptysis)? 
Can you see blood when you cough up something? 
How many times have you coughed up blood? 
Is there blood-streaked mucus (phlegm)? 
Time pattern 
Did it begin suddenly? 
Has it increased recently? 
How many weeks has the cough lasted? 
Is the cough worse at night? 
What other symptoms do you have? 
The doctor will do a complete physical exam and check your chest and lungs. Tests that may be done include:

Bronchoscopy 
Chest CT scan 
Chest x-ray 
Coagulation studies, such as PT or PTT 
Complete blood count 
Lung biopsy 
Lung scan 
Pulmonary arteriography 
Sputum culture and smear 
Alternative Names
Hemoptysis; Spitting up blood; Bloody sputum


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Dec 25, 2009)

Lordy    .


----------



## Fran (Dec 25, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:33


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## Quelsatron (Dec 25, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> If  you’re taking this seriously it really says more about your intellect then anything so


----------



## firefist (Dec 25, 2009)

I like Berserk, one of my fav. mangas.
However, the massive amount of rape & sex related stuff gets really annoying sometimes.

maybe you should go read some more volumes, or atleast till the eclipse.


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## Higawa (Dec 25, 2009)

Just read more

For me berserk is my fav manga of all the time!

I started reading! couldnt stop and now I´m totally obsessed!


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## Felix (Dec 25, 2009)

> And I don’t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.



OH GOD

Anyway, speaking of all the rape and stuff... I haven't seen any sexual elements ever since the female knight tried to fuck Guts sword


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## Canute87 (Dec 25, 2009)

berserk started off slow to me. Reading though 100+pages in the first few chapters was annoying to say the least.

But when i reached the golden age i could not stop reading. Chapter after chapter got me hooked.

From the impressions i got i thought it would have been just mindless slaughter but it's more than that.

berserk is a really good manga and i wish it would come out more often.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Dec 25, 2009)

Felix said:


> OH GOD
> 
> Anyway, speaking of all the rape and stuff... I haven't seen any sexual elements ever since the female knight tried to fuck Guts sword



Was that before or after the part with the trolls?


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Dec 25, 2009)

HeOf7 said:


> Coughing up blood is the spitting up of blood or bloody mucus from the lungs and throat (respiratory tract).
> 
> Hemoptysis is the medical term for coughing up blood from the respiratory tract.
> 
> ...



Best reply to the thread.


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## KidTony (Dec 25, 2009)

You can count with the fingers on your hand the number of times there's been rape in Berserk. 

1.Casca
2.Wyald rapes the women that help the band rescue griffith
3.Troll Rape

Perhaps i'm missing one or two, i guarantee you it won't go past six instances in the entire series.


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## crazymtf (Dec 25, 2009)

It's characters and dark story + Amazing art is what made me love berserk.


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## mary no jutsu (Dec 27, 2009)

I read the first volume of Beserk, and I had to stop because it was a bit to graphic for me.  My friend told me it gets worse too.


----------



## Fran (Dec 27, 2009)

Nah, the best rape was when the horse tried to rape Farnese


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## Moirae (Dec 28, 2009)

KidTony said:


> You can count with the fingers on your hand the number of times there's been rape in Berserk.
> 
> 1.Casca
> 2.Wyald rapes the women that help the band rescue griffith
> ...


There were a couple attempted rape scenes too, such as the horse scene, but you're right, there is far less rape than most people make it out to be (compared to the sheer size of this series). It's just a case of   .



mary no jutsu said:


> I read the first volume of Beserk, and I had to stop because it was a bit to graphic for me.  My friend told me it gets worse too.


Guts sleeping with the apostle in the opening scene and Puck landing in a puddle of pee put me off from reading anymore of Beserk for a year or so. Then, I read 20-something volumes in 2 days. You get a little desensitized after awhile. You stop expecting secondary characters to live and it shocks you more if they do.... of course recently Guts has been forming a new band and you can't help but become attached all the while fearing a repeat of the infamous eclipse scene.


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## Friendlyel (Dec 30, 2009)

As much as I love Berserk I'll be the first to admit that alot of what makes it great is simply shock factor. After all, what other series has the main character's love interest traumatized because she was raped by a demon and had a deformed baby?

I also like the way it goes progressively in the beginning being about simple mid-evil politics to being an all out demon slaying series as it goes on.


----------



## UsoppYusukeLuffy (Dec 30, 2009)

Hmm not gonna say Beserk is a bad series oh no never that it has a lot of emotion and shit like that but I don't like it well cause


*Spoiler*: __ 



IT SCARED THE SHIT OUT OF ME Man SOME OF THE SCARIEST RAPE SCENES EVER AND THE FUNNIEST THING IS THAT WHEN THE RAPE SCENE WAS MENTIONED IN THE ABIDGED SERIES I PISSED MYSELF!




Sorry for that but I had too let it out


----------



## rldragon (Dec 30, 2009)

Berserk has some decent art, but not counting a few extraordinary scenes, it's just that. _Decent_.



Not to mention, Kentaro Miura is one crazy, twisted, disturbed **** of a lunatic. Some of his scenes are just... scary scary. Didn't stop me from morbidly reading Berserk until now, however


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## Litho (Jan 1, 2010)

"It's not Berserk, it's you."


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## Medusa (Jan 1, 2010)

what is this I dont even


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## MdB (Jan 1, 2010)

Mider T said:


> Hate or love Berserk, we can all agree that's it better than One Piece.



And what does One Piece have to do with Berserk? I don't follow that logic, it's retarded.


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## firefist (Jan 2, 2010)

this topic should end now.


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## Sasori (Jan 2, 2010)

Lucaniel said:


> If this wasn't a hilariously bad thread to begin with, Heof7's post has catapulted it into the anus of NF.


It hasn't been moved to the Blender yet.



Firefist said:


> I like Berserk, one of my fav. mangas.
> However, *the massive amount of rape & sex related stuff* gets really annoying sometimes.


Funny, that's the only reason I read it.



Felix said:


> OH GOD
> 
> Anyway, speaking of all the rape and stuff... I haven't seen any sexual elements ever since the female knight tried to fuck Guts sword


And I am sorely disappointed. I don't even bother getting out the tissues with each chapter release like I used to.


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## Sasori (Jan 2, 2010)

HeOf7 said:


> Coughing up blood is the spitting up of blood or bloody mucus from the lungs and throat (respiratory tract).
> 
> Hemoptysis is the medical term for coughing up blood from the respiratory tract.
> 
> ...


thats a gd theory


----------



## firefist (Jan 2, 2010)

Sasori said:


> It hasn't been moved to the Blender yet.
> 
> Funny, that's the only reason I read it.
> 
> And I am sorely disappointed. I don't even bother getting out the tissues with each chapter release like I used to.



you read it because of the sex?


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## yami (Jan 2, 2010)

Its ridiculous how fast this thread degraded to one piece war when it is about Berserk. Lets keep it on topic here.
look, I dont know what manga you were reading, but Berserk was/is one of the edgiest/craziest manga I have read. I agree that there was nothing much to the characters/plot up until after the eclipse, and yes the characters are all pretty two dimensional some of the time. Berserk is something you will start liking more and more if you keep reading it. 
          I dont know how you can be disrespecting the art, the art is some of the most hyper-realistic art in any manga out there, I can start showing you examples where you cannot deny that the art is amazing. It gives all the violence in the manga more weight, all the monsters more believable, and sort of grounds the series in a medieval time even with all the crazy fantasy.
        The plot of the manga might be simple at times, but it has more depth than you think it does.(and seriously, there are enough casualties for the good guys throughout the story, especially in the eclipse arc, so it isnt your typical shounen plot, plus have you read some of the subject matter Berserk deals with? This manga is anything but shounen)


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## Pompous (Jan 2, 2010)

yami said:


> I dont know how you can be disrespecting the art, the art is some of the most *hyper-realistic art *in any manga out there, I can start showing you examples where you cannot deny that the art is amazing. It gives all the violence in the manga more weight, all the monsters more believable, and sort of grounds the series in a medieval time even with all the crazy fantasy.


The art is by no means "hyper realistic". It's stylized and a good one at that.


> The plot of the manga might be simple at times, but it has more depth than you think it does.(and seriously, there are enough casualties for the good guys throughout the story, especially in the eclipse arc, so it isnt your typical shounen plot, plus have you read some of the subject matter Berserk deals with? This manga is anything but shounen)



Why are you comparing it to shonen plots in the first place?


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## Sasori (Jan 2, 2010)

Firefist said:


> you read it because of the sex?


Duh. Why else do I do _anything_?


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## firefist (Jan 3, 2010)

Sasori said:


> Duh. Why else do I do _anything_?



hmm... makes sense.


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## Tash (Jan 3, 2010)

The proportions of Berserks art are pretty wacky sometimes.

But it's thoroughly drenched in amazing detail, and consistently at that.

The artworks a good bit better than "decent".

"Decent" is like

an Urasawa manga


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## hcheng02 (Jan 3, 2010)

I've read all the Berserk chapters and I honestly have to say that the OP has a good point. Its not a bad manga, but honestly its seriously overrated here in NF - who seem to think that its one of the bestest mangas ever. The main draws of Berserk are the art, characterization, and - theres no denying this - the shock factor. Underneath the gore and rape the plot would not be out of place in a shonen or RPG. There's little in the way of politics, the magic and metaphysics is not that complex, and hardly any strategy is involved in the fights. The Eclipse session was great in its execution, but if you tone down the gore and rape you can easily find similar variants in a bunch of different mangas. 

Seriously, there are darker mangas - Lone Wolf and Cub and Samurai Executioner - out there. Hell, I've even seen gorier mangas - Shigurui for example. Nor is this stuff that dark in comparison to some of the fantasy and sci-fi I've read. Warhammer and Conan books are pretty grim too. Then you have Lovecraft for horror and such.


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## Inugami (Jan 3, 2010)

again 

What's all this fuss about Naruto/One Piece/Bleach ... 

seriously if you compare Berserk doesn't really have a big fuss in this Naruto Forum.

can't believe this stupid thread its still alive.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 3, 2010)

MdB said:


> How can the overall art direction be generic and cliche when it's deviating from the conventional to a significant extend?
> 
> Look at the distinction.
> 
> ...



Its not really fair to compare a human from one manga to a monster in another.


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## Nimander (Jan 3, 2010)

I don't blame the OP.  It's kinda the same reason I dropped One Piece three times before I finally sat down and forced myself to read it.  It didn't pull me in like other manga I've read have, and even after having read up to the current point in the storyline I still don't find it that engaging. 

So it does all come down to opinion.  As for me, I put Berserk down for a few reasons.  1) It was turning out to be way too long.  I understand Muira wanting to create an epic, but to me, it reaches a point where it's just dragging.  2) Believe it or not, Berserk got *too* dark for me at times.  I don't have a weak stomach by any means, but I'd hate for this manga to desensitize me to shit.  Like someone said in a sig quote I read once, "Berserk has left me unable to enjoy rainbows and sunshine."  Not quite the case for me, but I can understand how you can get to that point.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 4, 2010)

Nimander said:


> I don't blame the OP.  It's kinda the same reason I dropped One Piece three times before I finally sat down and forced myself to read it.  It didn't pull me in like other manga I've read have, and even after having read up to the current point in the storyline I still don't find it that engaging.
> 
> So it does all come down to opinion.  As for me, I put Berserk down for a few reasons.  1) It was turning out to be way too long.  I understand Muira wanting to create an epic, but to me, it reaches a point where it's just dragging.  2) Believe it or not, Berserk got *too* dark for me at times.  I don't have a weak stomach by any means, but I'd hate for this manga to desensitize me to shit.  Like someone said in a sig quote I read once, "Berserk has left me unable to enjoy rainbows and sunshine."  Not quite the case for me, but I can understand how you can get to that point.



Yeah, there are a few arcs that seem to be borderline filler. Like the Fairy child arc right after the Eclipse one. I mean, it was good and all but nothing is really lost in the plot if it never happened. Same with the little beach fight scene right after Guts gets his Berserk armor. I mean, Miura could have taken that part out and just left the part with Guts and Casca finding that kid and talking to the Skull Knight. 

The fact that he takes next to forever to get a new chapter out doesn't help much either. 

Also, maybe I'm already pretty desensitized to this stuff but I'm not that shocked by the gore and rape scenes. Thats practically the only reason why this manga is considered seinen.


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## yo586 (Jan 4, 2010)

hcheng02 said:


> I've read all the Berserk chapters and I honestly have to say that the OP has a good point. Its not a bad manga, but honestly its seriously overrated here in NF - who seem to think that its one of the bestest mangas ever. The main draws of Berserk are the art, characterization, and - theres no denying this - the shock factor. Underneath the gore and rape the plot would not be out of place in a shonen or RPG. There's little in the way of politics, the magic and metaphysics is not that complex, and hardly any strategy is involved in the fights. The Eclipse session was great in its execution, but if you tone down the gore and rape you can easily find similar variants in a bunch of different mangas.
> 
> Seriously, there are darker mangas - Lone Wolf and Cub and Samurai Executioner - out there. Hell, I've even seen gorier mangas - Shigurui for example. Nor is this stuff that dark in comparison to some of the fantasy and sci-fi I've read. Warhammer and Conan books are pretty grim too. Then you have Lovecraft for horror and such.



This is a good post, and its nice to see an intelligent critique of the manga.

As has been said a few times in this thread, the love in the manga is not in its complexity.  It is in how well it takes on a very simple story.  I find most of the characters very compelling despite their two dimensionality.

There are a lot of pacing critiques that are justified as well.  However, this is true of many an epic in various different literary forms.  The Odyssey and Beowulf both dragged along at points, two of the greatest hero stories ever.  If I had stumbled upon Berserk in its completion, I'm quite confident that the pacing would be at least as bearable as these two examples.  

And I am always a fan of the random fights that do nothing to further the plot.  Really drives in the point that Guts (and now everyone else) lives in a 24/7 hell.  And god its fun to watch him slice things.

I am going to have to check out those other mangas because I have never heard of them, but your Western fiction references are all great stories to be compared to.


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## Haohmaru (Jan 4, 2010)

Finally starting reading this after putting it on hold for years (seen the anime and read the manga once up to where the anime ends). I'm at volume 5 I think (Gutts has just become leader of a division of the Band of the Hawks). I couldn't stand the art in the beginning (namely the faces), but that was mainly because I know how great it's going to improve in future chapters. It's amazing how much a mangaka improves his art over the years. Anyway, I agree with hcheng and yo586. Story is simple (so far). The characters are what make this manga awesome. And the shock value as well. It's brutal.


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## Tash (Jan 4, 2010)

hcheng02 said:


> I've read all the Berserk chapters and I honestly have to say that the OP has a good point. Its not a bad manga, but honestly its seriously overrated here in NF - who seem to think that its one of the bestest mangas ever. The main draws of Berserk are the art, characterization, and - theres no denying this - the shock factor. Underneath the gore and rape the plot would not be out of place in a shonen or RPG. There's little in the way of politics, the magic and metaphysics is not that complex, and hardly any strategy is involved in the fights. The Eclipse session was great in its execution, but if you tone down the gore and rape you can easily find similar variants in a bunch of different mangas.
> 
> Seriously, there are darker mangas - Lone Wolf and Cub and Samurai Executioner - out there. Hell, I've even seen gorier mangas - Shigurui for example. Nor is this stuff that dark in comparison to some of the fantasy and sci-fi I've read. Warhammer and Conan books are pretty grim too. Then you have Lovecraft for horror and such.



The difference between shonen and seinen manga is ass vapor basically.

Nothing you mentioned, not the fight strategy, not the gore, not the politics are exclusive to either shonen or seinen.

So saying that "the plot would not be out of place in a shonen" doesn't detract from it at all.

And honestly I don't get why everybody has the biggest boner for COMPLEXITY and DEEP STRATEGY when that's so obviously not what Berserk was ever aiming for.

Do you guys seriously have to be lost in the mechanics of something to enjoy it?

Also the people who follow it because of the shock factor are the largest queers ever.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 4, 2010)

Tash said:


> The difference between shonen and seinen manga is ass vapor basically.
> 
> Nothing you mentioned, not the fight strategy, not the gore, not the politics are exclusive to either shonen or seinen.
> 
> ...



I'm under the impression that seinen mangas generally have more complex plots or have more gore and/or sex. Pretty sure the parts with trolls raping women and whatnot would not be shown in a shonen. Though to be fair a lot of seinen is basically shonen but sexed/bloodied up. 

I enjoy Berserk just fine but I see it as it is - a fairly standard dark fantasy with great art and lots of blood and sex. Whereas plenty of the posters in NF seem to think "OMGODZ BERSERK IS THE BESTEST MANGAS EVOR!"


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## Supa Swag (Jan 4, 2010)

> And I don’t see why Casca has to become retarded after being tentacle raped the girls from Taimanin Asagi, and Mahout Shoujo Ai get tentacle raped just as bad and there not anymore retarded then they ever were.



pretty much the best post in this thread.


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## Yashamaru (Jan 7, 2010)

Tash said:


> And honestly I don't get why everybody has the biggest boner for COMPLEXITY and DEEP STRATEGY when that's so obviously not what Berserk was ever aiming for.


I'm not having like the "biggest boner" for deep strategy, but...

1- Berserk is an action manga, were fights hold a great significance, you can hardly argue with that. As a reader, I DO expect fights to be surprising and well tought out, not some basic slaying action.

2- If you want to be taken seriously as a writer, you cannot just "ask" your characters to rush straight ahead when they are attacking a heavily protected castle. Do you what does it take to seize a castle ? It is a real brain teaser...

Berserk fails HARD on these two levels. You might not care about these aspects, I understand and respect that, but personnaly, these are points that matter for me.
Look, take Naruto as an example. Fights both kick ass (visually) and are well tought (strategically), for the majority of them. Fighting scenes' role is therefore fullfiled, whereas in Berserk... it is more arguable, to say the least.

Oh... And people claiming seinen and shonen are alike should seriously start reading seinen mangas !  MPD Psycho, Mushishi, Kami no Itadaki, Manhole (etc, etc, etc...) anyone ??


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## Medusa (Jan 7, 2010)

Yashamaru said:


> 1- *Naruto*
> 2- Claymore
> 3- xXxHolic
> 4- Soul Eater
> ...


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## MdB (Jan 7, 2010)

Naruto has well thought out fighting scenes that all are brilliantly crafted? Since the beginning of the time-skip, they all ended up in disastrous ass-pulls or Deus Ex Machinas.


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## Inugami (Jan 7, 2010)

So Berserk fights fails and Naruto ones are kick ass...okay.


are you a troll?


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## zuul (Jan 7, 2010)

I have always found Berserk fights to be boring. And they are ultra long. Shitload of pages to skip.

*avoid rotten tomatoes*


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## Aldric (Jan 7, 2010)

Yashamaru said:


> Look, take Naruto as an example. Fights both kick ass (visually) and are well tought (strategically), for the majority of them. Fighting scenes' role is therefore fullfiled, whereas in Berserk... it is more arguable, to say the least.



Ah man

Credibility shattered forever


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## Whimsy (Jan 7, 2010)

zuul said:


> I have always found Berserk fights to be boring. And they are ultra long. Shitload of pages to skip.
> 
> *avoid rotten tomatoes*



Well if you don't enjoy pages of people being chopped in half, sure.


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## Haohmaru (Jan 7, 2010)

Lol Berserk fights boring. You're crazy. Like Whimsy said. If you don't like straight up chopping, slicing and dicing, Berserk isn't for you.


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## Pompous (Jan 7, 2010)

Yashamaru said:


> I'm not having like the "biggest boner" for deep strategy, but...
> 
> 1- Berserk is an action manga, were fights hold a great significance, you can hardly argue with that. As a reader, I DO expect fights to be surprising and well tought out, not some basic slaying action.
> 
> ...


Berserk fights have enough strategy where need be. Let's not forget the limited supernatural elements that give them the advantage over cannon fodder.

Wait you actually think Naruto fights are good? Nevermind.

Shonen and seinen don't need to be to be any different beyond gore/tits. Look at how every Ultra Jump is basically shonen for better or for worse.


zuul said:


> I have always found Berserk fights to be boring. And they are ultra long. Shitload of pages to skip.
> 
> *avoid rotten tomatoes*



Most Berserk fights are decided in one double spread, it shows off Gutts strength. The ones that last longer do have tactics, but as the title suggests, rage is very useful.


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## MdB (Jan 7, 2010)

BY THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP


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## KidTony (Jan 7, 2010)

So here's what i've learned today. Berserk fights sucks and Naruto fights are awesome.


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## yo586 (Jan 7, 2010)

There have been a couple of epic quotes on this thread, tentacle rape and good Naruto fights.  I will keep checking in and hope to see more.


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## Malumultimus (Jan 8, 2010)

I always thought fighting in Naruto was terrible. Kishimoto's idea of "strategic" is more along the lines of "retarded," so he can't actually write smart characters - they just seem really random and absurd. And it follows the same shounen cliche of "whoever power-ups last wins".

I enjoy the fights in Naruto, sure, but they're not original or detailed by any stretch of the imagination.

If I had to pick a shounen that actually makes fights interesting, it'd be Soul Eater. You never know what's going to happen and Ohkubo has a really good eye for the movements made possible (like when Maka kicked Chrona's face across her scythe, or pretty much anything Mifune and Giriko can do).

Not to say Berserk is special, though. Guts pretty much follows this flow chart:

1. Hack and slash.
1a. If that fails, cannon their face.


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## Yashamaru (Jan 8, 2010)

Haohmaru said:


> Lol Berserk fights boring. You're crazy. Like Whimsy said. If you don't like straight up chopping, slicing and dicing, Berserk isn't for you.


Yep, that's what I figured... 



Pompous said:


> Wait you actually think Naruto fights are good? Nevermind.


Some are, yes, most definetely. I'm not saying all of them are tremendously handled, but there ARE good fights in the series. As an exemple, if you cut out the end of the fight, Sasuke VS Deidara was not bad, stregically speaking. You cannot say either that Jiraiya VS Pain was poor on that level.



KidTony said:


> So here's what i've learned today. Berserk fights sucks and Naruto fights are awesome.


I didn't say that.  I just pointed out the poor strategic dimension in Berserk fights. Some Naruto fights aren't that good either, but most of the time, it goes so far beyond the classic Berserk hack n' slash.



Malumultimus said:


> If I had to pick a shounen that actually makes fights interesting, it'd be Soul Eater. You never know what's going to happen and Ohkubo has a really good eye for the movements made possible (like when Maka kicked Chrona's face across her scythe, or pretty much anything Mifune and Giriko can do).


Totally seconded. Soul Eater rocks on so many levels.


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## Xan_Aloufin (Jan 8, 2010)

Yashamaru said:


> I told you, I may have stumbled on Berserk too late to appreciate it to its full extend, but it remains an average manga to me...



i think its exactly this =)
you have recognized it yourself and i can somewhat understand you... because everthing thats new to us is interesting... 

if you would have read berserk before all those ad&d and other big guy sword stuff.. like say 1986 when beserk started.. i guess could be a great berserk fan now... but things went differently for you.. 

thats just unfortunate..


for me i greatly enjoy Berserk.. its great plot character development.. the action.. the emotions.. the art.. the setting... it will always be my manga number 1


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## KidTony (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't get why you're focusing on 'strategy'. Berserk is not a fighting manga with a power system or need for fighting mechanics. It's a fantasy manga and the story is told through the plot, not the fights; which are by  the way, fucking awesome, lack of strategy and all.

P.S: if you think Naruto fights are strategic you're clearly reading the wrong series. All Naruto fights have degenerated into power up vs bigger powerup. Berserk fights have plenty of more 'strategy' if you actually bother to look at them. For example, the fight with serpico in the pillars at Vritanis and all the time Guts fighs the aposoles and beats them with clever thinking when he's initially underwhelmed (when he fought the Baron, Rosine, Wyald, etc). Shows way more 'strategy' than in Naruto which only really has a couple of shikamaru fights that can be called clever.


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## Pompous (Jan 8, 2010)

Yashamaru said:


> I didn't say that.  I just pointed out the poor strategic dimension in Berserk fights. Some Naruto fights aren't that good either, but most of the time, it goes so far beyond the classic Berserk hack n' slash.


Berserk is a hack n' slash though, it's kinda the whole point of the series. Besides the more normal characters such as Serpico use clever tricks and such. The point is that's a very weak argument against it.


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## firefist (Jan 8, 2010)

Guts is the type who is able to slash things down and doesn't need to come up with a strategy, only when fighting the big guys etc.
And then, look at Ishidro and Serpico. They both fight completly different than Guts.


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## MdB (Jan 8, 2010)

Deidara Vs. Sasuke wasn't strategic, it was ass-pull after ass-pull hidden behind a curtain smeared with shit. No way Kishimoto could cover such a blatant facade.


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## KidTony (Jan 8, 2010)

^ It was ok for half the fight, then we got into the realm of massive bombs that can bust 100 miles of terrain in seconds and magical dimension warping snakes.


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## Haohmaru (Jan 8, 2010)

What Tony said. Berserk is all about the art of war. Strategic ways to outsmart your enemy. Not magic, super powers stuff like Naruto, HxH etc. When one is fighting sword against sword. There's just that. 2 people fighting it out. And even then the fights are pretty good. Like the example Tony gave (Serpico fight) and most of the other fights against stronger opponents. Gutts vs Beetle and Praying mantis, Gutts vs Fake Elf Queen. Seriously, we really don't have anything to complain regarding fights. Now if you were complaining about the 5 chapters a year, I would've completely agreed. Shit is FUCKING RIDICULOUUUUUS.


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## MdB (Jan 8, 2010)

Sasuke 'conveniently' came up with counter-measures at any giving time by conceiving more eye-based powers out of thin air, or rather, straight from his ass. 

Microscopic vision. Really?


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## MdB (Jan 8, 2010)

Or what about Kakuzu? A renowned elite fighter, a sharp analyst, a person that even outwitted Shikamaru, in general a guy with more years of experience than anyone else besides Madara, but dispite of all this, he got defeated by a mere Bunshin faint. What a splendid set-piece, so memorable and novel.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 8, 2010)

KidTony said:


> I don't get why you're focusing on 'strategy'. Berserk is not a fighting manga with a power system or need for fighting mechanics. It's a fantasy manga and the story is told through the plot, not the fights; which are by  the way, fucking awesome, *lack of strategy and all.*
> 
> P.S: if you think Naruto fights are strategic you're clearly reading the wrong series. All Naruto fights have degenerated into power up vs bigger powerup. Berserk fights have plenty of more 'strategy' if you actually bother to look at them. For example, the fight with serpico in the pillars at Vritanis and all the time Guts fighs the aposoles and beats them with clever thinking when he's initially underwhelmed (when he fought the Baron, Rosine, Wyald, etc). Shows way more 'strategy' than in Naruto which only really has a couple of shikamaru fights that can be called clever.



So you do pretty much concede to the OP's point right? The plot of Berserk is honestly nothing too special though. Its pretty standard fantasy fare. There plenty of Deus Ex Machinas as well. Guts and Casca are stuck in the Eclipse and can't get out? Skull Knight pops in saves them. Guts is wounded by Slann in the Troll cave and is about to be buried/warped alive? Skull Knight teleports him away. 



Haohmaru said:


> What Tony said. Berserk is all about the art of war. Strategic ways to outsmart your enemy. Not magic, super powers stuff like Naruto, HxH etc. When one is fighting sword against sword. There's just that. 2 people fighting it out. And even then the fights are pretty good. Like the example Tony gave (Serpico fight) and most of the other fights against stronger opponents. Gutts vs Beetle and Praying mantis, Gutts vs Fake Elf Queen. Seriously, we really don't have anything to complain regarding fights. Now if you were complaining about the 5 chapters a year, I would've completely agreed. Shit is FUCKING RIDICULOUUUUUS.



Uh, actually KidTony said the opposite. There really isn't that much strategy in Berserk, at least as far as Guts is concerned. Most of the time he just plows right through a bunch of fodder and slashes away. After visiting the Witch Den, he either goes berserk and repeats the above process or he holds the line (by slashing shit up) until Schierke summons a spell to blow shit up. I will admit that Serpico fights pretty strategically though. I would say that Guts fight with Rosine is probably his most strategic one. 

The OP is also referring to how Griffith is supposed to be this military genius, but in all honesty he has a point when he says we really don't see much of that. Most of the time we just see the Old Band of the Hawk charging in to some castle. And after the Eclipse he's the fucking antiChrist - with supernatural charisma, has 99% of the apostles following his every word, can give visions, and read the future. Griffith doesn't even need strategy anymore.



Malumultimus said:


> Not to say Berserk is special, though. Guts pretty much follows this flow chart:
> 
> 1. Hack and slash.
> 1a. If that fails, cannon their face.
> *2. Go Berserk and repeat step 1*



Fixed for you.

Note that none of this makes Berserk a bad manga by any means. But I'm just calling a spade a spade. I read Berserk with the same mindset as I read a Conan the Barbarian comic and pretty much enjoy it at the same level. Same as with Naruto really. 

The OP has a point when Naruto has more emphasis on strategy. Look at Naruto VS Pain, Jiraiya VS Pain, and Shikamaru fights. At the very least, Naruto's on the spot improvisation is comparable to Gut's fights.


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## ArtieBoy (Jan 8, 2010)

Uhh. 
U do know u compared failruto to berserk right


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## Medusa (Jan 8, 2010)

> The OP has a point when Naruto has more emphasis on strategy. Look at Naruto VS Pain, Jiraiya VS Pain, and Shikamaru fights. At the very least, Naruto's on the spot improvisation is comparable to Gut's fights.



Oh god


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## Sasori (Jan 8, 2010)

KidTony said:


> I don't get why you're focusing on 'strategy'. Berserk is not a fighting manga with a power system or need for fighting mechanics. It's a fantasy manga and the story is told through the plot, not the fights; which are by  the way, fucking awesome, lack of strategy and all.


This. The fighting is not the main thing in Berserk. If anything, the fights are just representations of power dynamics, Gutt's struggle, his growth, and progressing through the story.


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## KidTony (Jan 8, 2010)

> So you do pretty much concede to the OP's point right? The plot of Berserk is honestly nothing too special though. Its pretty standard fantasy fare. There plenty of Deus Ex Machinas as well. Guts and Casca are stuck in the Eclipse and can't get out? Skull Knight pops in saves them. Guts is wounded by Slann in the Troll cave and is about to be buried/warped alive? Skull Knight teleports him away.



did you even read my post? There is more strategy in Berserk fights that there are in naruto fights; which is pretty embarrassing considering the fights in Berserk are sidehow companions to the story.

As to 'nothing special' about the plot, that's your opinion and I'm sure a lot of people disagree. I'd like to know what you consider special, perhaps i think there's nothing special about that. 

About those 'deus ex machina' you mentioned, that's really a petty thing to complain about. So what would you have rather happened, they die? Or Gutts powers up and beats the God Hand? Is that a favorable alternative?


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## hcheng02 (Jan 8, 2010)

KidTony said:


> did you even read my post? There is more strategy in Berserk fights that there are in naruto fights; which is pretty embarrassing considering the fights in Berserk are sidehow companions to the story.
> 
> As to 'nothing special' about the plot, that's your opinion and I'm sure a lot of people disagree. I'd like to know what you consider special, perhaps i think there's nothing special about that.
> 
> About those 'deus ex machina' you mentioned, that's really a petty thing to complain about. So what would you have rather happened, they die? Or Gutts powers up and beats the God Hand? Is that a favorable alternative?



You initially said that Berserk had no strategy before saying that it did within the same post. It isn't my fault when you contradict yourself. And there is hardly anymore strategy in Berserk than Naruto. How many times do you actually see Guts think ahead in a fight before jumping into the fray? 

The fights in Berserk are hardly "sideshows" to the manga. Its a pretty important part. You think this manga would be half as popular without all the gore and shock value? There are a bunch of other seinen manga that have much deeper stories than Berserk -ie Monster, Lone Wolf and Cub, Vagabond, Shigurui, Buddha, etc. 

As for the Deus Ex Machina, I'm just stating the facts. People who bitch nonstop about Naruto having too much of it seem to forget it happens in the "bestest mangas ever" as well.


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## Deathbringerpt (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't know how Skullknight saving Guts twice from the God Hand can be called Deux Ex Machina when plotwise, Skullknight will *always* be around the God Hand each time they are summoned into Earth.

Since Skullknight is, you know, hunting them, same as Guts. 

Both of them being at the same place at the same time because they have the same objective does not makes it a Deux Ex machina.


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## MdB (Jan 8, 2010)

Skull Knight was seen trying to enter the pocket dimension that was created by the God Hand, only to be thwarted by Zodd. How exactly is that an illogical plot device devoid of any foreshadowing?


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## Tash (Jan 8, 2010)

Naruto may have more focus on strategy but that doesn't mean it does strategy well (and it doesn't).

Most of the time the "strategies" are just convenient coincidences, rely on ninja magic to do everything with very little prediction of the enemy's action neccessary, recons, or just flat out dumb.

But I digress.


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## KidTony (Jan 8, 2010)

hcheng02 said:


> You initially said that Berserk had no strategy before saying that it did within the same post. It isn't my fault when you contradict yourself. And there is hardly anymore strategy in Berserk than Naruto. How many times do you actually see Guts think ahead in a fight before jumping into the fray?



I didn't contradict myself, you just didn't understand my post. As to the strategy, i believe Gutts has used it in all his non-fodder fights. Every single apostle he's fought and beat he's deceived them somehow. Or you don't remember how he used the kawarami no jutsu against Wyald, and how he beat rosine or the count? Every single significant fight in the story that i remember has been more than just hack and slash. If you say different then name me examples, I'm pretty sure for everyone you name I'll name two that back me up.



> The fights in Berserk are hardly "sideshows" to the manga. Its a pretty important part. You think this manga would be half as popular without all the gore and shock value?



They are second fiddle to the plot. Fact remains that Berserk doesn't need any fight mechanics or anything of that sort, it's not that kind of manga. Next im going to hear people bitch that there's not a power system in vinland saga. Yeah, you don't seem to get it.



> There are a bunch of other seinen manga that have much deeper stories than Berserk -ie Monster, Lone Wolf and Cub, Vagabond, Shigurui, Buddha, etc.



Mearly opinion. I've read every single one of those manga except shiguri Budhha and I say Berserk's plot has as much complexity as all of them, with the exception of Monster. There's is nothing deep about the plot of Vagabond, that series is a character study and is quite directionless for the majority of it's runtime, same with LWaC. Just because you happen to like these series better does not mean they have deeper stories. I'll argue that all day long.





> As for the Deus Ex Machina, I'm just stating the facts. People who bitch nonstop about Naruto having too much of it seem to forget it happens in the "bestest mangas ever" as well.




Just a horrible argument. Give me an alternative to any of those situations you've named and I'll call that a deus ex machina, it's a lose-lose.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 8, 2010)

Deathbringerpt said:


> I don't know how Skullknight saving Guts twice from the God Hand can be called Deux Ex Machina when plotwise, Skullknight will *always* be around the God Hand each time they are summoned into Earth.
> 
> Since Skullknight is, you know, hunting them, same as Guts.
> 
> Both of them being at the same place at the same time because they have the same objective does not makes it a Deux Ex machina.





MdB said:


> Skull Knight was seen trying to enter the pocket dimension that was created by the God Hand, only to be thwarted by Zodd. How exactly is that an illogical plot device devoid of any foreshadowing?



The Skull Knight just happens to bail out Guts whenever things get a little out of his league. Zodd was blocking Skull Knight and fighting as equals but Skull Knights was able to save Guts right in the nick of times before he and Casca were gonna get eaten. But, fine, lets just say thats a logical story development. What about the Troll Cave? Skull Knight pretty much pulled a new sword power up to save the day. 



KidTony said:


> I didn't contradict myself, you just didn't understand my post.



In this post you say that it lacks strategy and a few sentences later you say that it has lots of it.



KidTony said:


> I don't get why you're focusing on 'strategy'. Berserk is not a fighting manga with a power system or need for fighting mechanics. It's a fantasy manga and the story is told through the plot, *not the fights; which are by  the way, fucking awesome, lack of strategy and all.*
> 
> P.S: if you think Naruto fights are strategic you're clearly reading the wrong series. All Naruto fights have degenerated into power up vs bigger powerup. *Berserk fights have plenty of more 'strategy' if you actually bother to look at them. *For example, the fight with serpico in the pillars at Vritanis and all the time Guts fighs the aposoles and beats them with clever thinking when he's initially underwhelmed (when he fought the Baron, Rosine, Wyald, etc). Shows way more 'strategy' than in Naruto which only really has a couple of shikamaru fights that can be called clever.



So which is it?



> As to the strategy, i believe Gutts has used it in all his non-fodder fights. Every single apostle he's fought and beat he's deceived them somehow. Or you don't remember how he used the kawarami no jutsu against Wyald, and how he beat rosine or the count? Every single significant fight in the story that i remember has been more than just hack and slash. If you say different then name me examples, I'm pretty sure for everyone you name I'll name two that back me up.



Except non-fodder fights are far and few between. Lots of Guts fights are with fodder, and its pretty much hack and slash. I already said Rosine was a pretty strategic fight. Wyald had a decoy. But the count? Guts just used his daughter as a shield and then cannoned his ass. You call that a strategy?

Anyway, here's a few I can think of. 
The Fight against Slann - stab her with demon sword
The fight against Holy Guard when he first meets Farnesse. - hack and slash
1st Fight against new band of Hawk in Witch Den - get Berserk armor, hack and slash



> They are second fiddle to the plot. Fact remains that Berserk doesn't need any fight mechanics or anything of that sort, it's not that kind of manga. Next im going to hear people bitch that there's not a power system in vinland saga. Yeah, you don't seem to get it.


 
You seem to think that you need some fight system in order to use strategy when there are plenty of other ways to do so. Why not show pre-Eclipse Griffith do some of that vaunted military strategy on the field more often? Also, see the post below.



> Mearly opinion. I've read every single one of those manga except shiguri Budhha and I say Berserk's plot has as much complexity as all of them, with the exception of Monster. There's is nothing deep about the plot of Vagabond, that series is a character study and is quite directionless for the majority of it's runtime, same with LWaC. Just because you happen to like these series better does not mean they have deeper stories. I'll argue that all day long.



Lone Wolf and Cub has a crap load more strategy than Berserk. You see Ogami form all sort of elaborate plots and schemes to take down his targets. There was one mission where he had to assassinate a feudal lady who is guarded by a three swordmasters and a palaquin convoy. He doesn't know which one she's in and doesn't have the ability to take them all out. So he pretends to be a hostage at a checkpoint in the road. He waits until the convoy is bunched up and at a standstill in the checkpoint and then has his son bust him out. He waits until the people in the checkpoint finds out who is the feudal lady, has his son cause a distraction, and then leaps in for the kill. Berserk doesn't even compare to that kind of planning. 

That and its plot throws in a bunch of twists and such. The whole Silkworm plot for instance. Plenty of political intrigue with Retsudo and Abe no Kai. 



> Just a horrible argument. Give me an alternative to any of those situations you've named and I'll call that a deus ex machina, it's a lose-lose.



Thats the problem right there. The author wrote himself in to a corner and needs to have some really powerful outside force bail Guts out because he was pretty much in a hopeless situation.


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## Haohmaru (Jan 8, 2010)

@hcheng02, I'm talking about strong opponents here. Sure he kills crappy opponents instantly, but stronger ones take some strategy. If you've read the manga, you know what I'm talking about. Wouldn't be fun to read a manga were the main character is just slicing through everything he see's, just cause he's the protogonist.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 8, 2010)

Haohmaru said:


> @hcheng02, I'm talking about strong opponents here. Sure he kills crappy opponents instantly, but stronger ones take some strategy. If you've read the manga, you know what I'm talking about. Wouldn't be fun to read a manga were the main character is just slicing through everything he see's, just cause he's the protogonist.



Yes, Guts uses a little strategy, but not much. At least, not at a really higher level then a shonen. I'm just saying that strategy is not a really strong point in this manga. Thats fine. But are there other mangas that do strategy better? Sure.


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## Deathbringerpt (Jan 8, 2010)

> The Skull Knight just happens to bail out Guts whenever things get a little out of his league. Zodd was blocking Skull Knight and fighting as equals but Skull Knights was able to save Guts right in the nick of times before he and Casca were gonna get eaten. But, fine, lets just say thats a logical story development. What about the Troll Cave? Skull Knight pretty much pulled a new sword power up to save the day.



Remember each time Guts killed an Apostle in the arcs following the Eclipse and by the end of each arc, Skullknight came in and ate their behelits? The small amulets with faces that are used to summon the God Hand?

Skullknight puts his sword inside his mouth, glues the Behelit in order to make that freak ass Behelit sword which has the power to break through dimensions.

Again, it wasn't out of nowhere, there were previous plot exposition that justified the show off of that new ability in the troll cave, i mean he even states that he made that sword with said behelits. You're just trying too hard now pal.


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## KidTony (Jan 8, 2010)

> In this post you say that it lacks strategy and a few sentences later you say that it has lots of it.
> 
> 
> 
> So which is it?



I was saying that Berserk fights are awesome strategy or no strategy. Even if that part was confusing, from the rest of my post you can tell what side im on, it's not that hard.




> Except non-fodder fights are far and few between. Lots of Guts fights are with fodder, and its pretty much hack and slash. I already said Rosine was a pretty strategic fight. Wyald had a decoy. But the count? Guts just used his daughter as a shield and then cannoned his ass. You call that a strategy?
> 
> Anyway, here's a few I can think of.
> The Fight against Slann - stab her with demon sword
> ...



I don't get what you're point is, it's almost as if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Now you want Gutts to use strategy to beat fodder he can beat with his eyes closed? What exactly is it you want? You named a couple of fights, i can name double that amount where Gutts has used some means or other to take down a much more powerful opponent other than brute/overwhelming force. 

But even if there weren't any strategy, so what? Since when is that a prerequisite for a fight to be awesome? For example, you named the fight against Grunbeld where Gutts got his armor. Even though that fight had no strategy, it was still fucking badass seeing guts go Berserk like that. There's nothing wrong with fights being 'hack and slash'.




> You seem to think that you need some fight system in order to use strategy when there are plenty of other ways to do so. Why not show pre-Eclipse Griffith do some of that vaunted military strategy on the field more often? Also, see the post below.



So he didn't capture Doldrey by using strategy? Are you sure you're reading the same series?





> Lone Wolf and Cub has a crap load more strategy than Berserk. You see Ogami form all sort of elaborate plots and schemes to take down his targets. There was one mission where he had to assassinate a feudal lady who is guarded by a three swordmasters and a palaquin convoy. He doesn't know which one she's in and doesn't have the ability to take them all out. So he pretends to be a hostage at a checkpoint in the road. He waits until the convoy is bunched up and at a standstill in the checkpoint and then has his son bust him out. He waits until the people in the checkpoint finds out who is the feudal lady, has his son cause a distraction, and then leaps in for the kill. Berserk doesn't even compare to that kind of planning.



Except you forgot that in this section we were talking about depth of plot, not strategy. Who cares if LWaC had more strategy than berserk, you said it had a deeper plot, which is doesn't, and neither does vagabond and half the other stuff you mentioned.



> Thats the problem right there. The author wrote himself in to a corner and needs to have some really powerful outside force bail Guts out because he was pretty much in a hopeless situation.



You are under the impression that anyone but yourself actually has a problem with those two examples you mentioned. He didn't write himself into a corner, he meant it to be like that. Do you even know what a deus ex machina is?


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## Haohmaru (Jan 9, 2010)

theres like one manga that really uses strategy in fights, boti.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 9, 2010)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Remember each time Guts killed an Apostle in the arcs following the Eclipse and by the end of each arc, Skullknight came in and ate their behelits? The small amulets with faces that are used to summon the God Hand?
> 
> Skullknight puts his sword inside his mouth, glues the Behelit in order to make that freak ass Behelit sword which has the power to break through dimensions.
> 
> Again, it wasn't out of nowhere, there were previous plot exposition that justified the show off of that new ability in the troll cave, i mean he even states that he made that sword with said behelits. You're just trying too hard now pal.



Except there was no indication what Skull Knight was using those Behelits for until he pulled out that sword right when it was needed most.



KidTony said:


> I was saying that Berserk fights are awesome strategy or no strategy. Even if that part was confusing, from the rest of my post you can tell what side im on, it's not that hard.
> 
> 
> I don't get what you're point is, it's almost as if you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Now you want Gutts to use strategy to beat fodder he can beat with his eyes closed? What exactly is it you want? You named a couple of fights, i can name double that amount where Gutts has used some means or other to take down a much more powerful opponent other than brute/overwhelming force.
> ...



I am saying that Guts doesn't really use much strategy and that the strategy used isn't all that complicated. Its really not above the level shown in various shonen manga, right up there with the bunshin feint that is so loathed in Naruto, its just that fans are too overawed by the gore to care. And why shouldn't Guts use strategy against fodder? That strategy from Lone Wolf and Cub was against fodder. 

And where are these myriad of examples where Guts used great strategy against his enemies? 



> So he didn't capture Doldrey by using strategy? Are you sure you're reading the same series?



Griffith used strategy once - the "backs to the river" gambit - throughout his entire pre Eclipse showing which spanned about a dozen volumes. Once =/= much. 



> Except you forgot that in this section we were talking about depth of plot, not strategy. Who cares if LWaC had more strategy than berserk, you said it had a deeper plot, which is doesn't, and neither does vagabond and half the other stuff you mentioned.



What about the other part of the post that talked about the political intrigue and background for the characters? But its nice to know you agree that there are mangas out there with much better strategy involved. 



> You are under the impression that anyone but yourself actually has a problem with those two examples you mentioned. He didn't write himself into a corner, he meant it to be like that. Do you even know what a deus ex machina is?



Who said that I had a problem with it? Deux ex machinas are a legitimate story telling device since the ancient Greeks.


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## Sasori (Jan 9, 2010)

There is frequent rape and loli tits in this manga.

Why are you guys fighting again?


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## Prowler (Jan 9, 2010)

I guess Berserk is considered awesome by a certain type of people. 
Some people don't get it, they think story is always the same and too violent. I think it's perfect.


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## MdB (Jan 9, 2010)

hcheng02 said:


> The Skull Knight just happens to bail out Guts whenever things get a little out of his league. Zodd was blocking Skull Knight and fighting as equals but Skull Knights was able to save Guts right in the nick of times before he and Casca were gonna get eaten. But, fine, lets just say thats a logical story development. What about the Troll Cave? Skull Knight pretty much pulled a new sword power up to save the day.



Why so much gibberish when in the end you acknowledge that it was a set-up for a plot device rather than a DEM? And I never mentioned the incident with Flan, don't pull a red herring here.


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## firefist (Jan 9, 2010)

why are they trying so hard to make a series look bad?

"my fav. imaginary story has more strategy than yours." shut it already.

Don't like it? Don't read it.


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## Deathbringerpt (Jan 9, 2010)

> Except there was no indication what Skull Knight was using those Behelits for until he pulled out that sword right when it was needed most.



So? There was clearly exposition about what Skullknight did in order to make that sword, which, considering that the behelit is a trinket to open a doorway through dimensions make the properties of the sword consistent as well. 

That does not make neither an asspull nor a Deux Ex machina regardless if you like that development or not.


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## Tash (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm lolin at "Skull Knight pulled a new power out of nowhere" since we knew exactly nothing about what his powers were before the Troll Cave incident.


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## Inugami (Jan 9, 2010)

so now people are comparing the lulz of naruto jutsus to Skull Knight ? or whats happening bc now I don't get it .


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## Mishimoto (Jan 9, 2010)

This thread is gay.


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## Nybarius (Jan 9, 2010)

Has anyone mentioned that Gattsu looks very similar to Raoh?

That being said, Berserk is one of my top five favorite manga.  An understanding of mythology and history helps to deepen the plot, which is already good, and the art is first-rate.  Also, regarding strategy, what about the fight where Serpico finally decides to stop going after Gattsu?  Plenty of realistic strategy there, though not as much as something like Vagabond.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 9, 2010)

Mishimoto said:


> This thread is gay.



this is something I agree on


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## KidTony (Jan 9, 2010)

hcheng02 said:


> Except there was no indication what Skull Knight was using those Behelits for until he pulled out that sword right when it was needed most.



So? You're complaining about Skull night using an ability when we hadn't seen any of his abilities to start with. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.



> I am saying that Guts doesn't really use much strategy and that the strategy used isn't all that complicated. Its really not above the level shown in various shonen manga, right up there with the bunshin feint that is so loathed in Naruto, its just that fans are too overawed by the gore to care. And why shouldn't Guts use strategy against fodder? That strategy from Lone Wolf and Cub was against fodder.



The OP said Berserk fights suck because there's no strategy and they're all 'hack and slash', which is false. In addition, strategy in fights has nothing to do with depth of plot and is a stupidly insignificant deterrent to the series. That's without even considering you and the OP are both wrong.



> And where are these myriad of examples where Guts used great strategy against his enemies?



'Great' strategy'? The OP was talking about all Berserk fights being just 'hack and slash'. We've mentioned plenty examples to show how this is false. We've shown how in almost every single one of his fights he uses some kind of cunning to take down opponents stronger than himself. No one ever said anything about 'great strategy'. The point is the OP is wrong in calling Berserk fights hack and slash, they're nothing of the sort.




> Griffith used strategy once - the "backs to the river" gambit - throughout his entire pre Eclipse showing which spanned about a dozen volumes. Once =/= much.



And out of these dozens of volumes there was really only one big battle where the BoTH was showcased...where there was strategy. You're arguing over the most petty of things.



> What about the other part of the post that talked about the political intrigue and background for the characters? But its nice to know you agree that there are mangas out there with much better strategy involved.



And there's no political intrigue and character development in Berserk? Really?



> Who said that I had a problem with it? Deux ex machinas are a legitimate story telling device since the ancient Greeks.



To have a problem with deus ex machinas you'd have to actually understand what they are, which you obviously don't, as the two examples you've mentioned don't fit at all.


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## Turrin (Jan 9, 2010)

Berserk is probably my favorite Manga and one of my favorite Anime of all time. I'll talk about each a little bit.

The Manga is amazing to me because although opening is right some of the things are cliches and such not only was Berserk one of the first if not the first to have such plot devices it really pulls them off extremely well in my opinion. And i personally think cliches are fine if they are pulled of well because they are cliches for a reason; everyone is trying to pull them off as well as the original master piece that created these cliches. Now i don't know if Berserk was actually the one to create these cliches, but it pulls them off so well that it wouldn't shock me if i found it out it was and every one was just try to emulate berserk. 

Not only that, but the Art in the manga just keep getting better and better. The fights are draw incredibly well and for what it is a Fantasy/Magic based manga i find the battles believable. Its one of the few manga were there is a great lose of life at unexpected times and can actually pull off a twist. And the creativity that goes into creating a-lot of the characters and demons is pretty amazing to me. I could talk about why i like it for three pages worth of posts but i think its w/o a doubt one of the best manga of all time.

Now i personally never read the start of the manga as i watched the Anime which i one of my all time favorite anime because of the Music, still art, and casting(at least in the American verision; and this is the only Anime that i really enjoy the American Voice cast other then Yu Yu Hakusho). So maybe your problem Op is the start of the manga is really boring and drawn out i personally don't know as i have never read it. However in my opinion starting from the Eclipse the manga just keeps getting better and better and i quite shocked it hasn't been animated yet, although maybe that is because no anime team-studio wants to pick it up because they can't count on miura finishing any time within this decade.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 10, 2010)

KidTony said:


> So? You're complaining about Skull night using an ability when we hadn't seen any of his abilities to start with. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.



Who says I'm complaining, I'm just pointing out the facts. Skull Knight gets just the right power out at the right time to bail Guts out. 



> The OP said Berserk fights suck because there's no strategy and they're all 'hack and slash', which is false. In addition, strategy in fights has nothing to do with depth of plot and is a stupidly insignificant deterrent to the series. That's without even considering you and the OP are both wrong.
> 
> 'Great' strategy'? The OP was talking about all Berserk fights being just 'hack and slash'. We've mentioned plenty examples to show how this is false. We've shown how in almost every single one of his fights he uses some kind of cunning to take down opponents stronger than himself. No one ever said anything about 'great strategy'. The point is the OP is wrong in calling Berserk fights hack and slash, they're nothing of the sort.



I provided some examples, but you have not yet. You already admitted that Guts fight with Grunbeld was hack and slash, unless you consider getting a armor powerup and going berserk a strategy. Where are all these strategic fights that supposedly outnumber the hack and slash ones? Hack and slash fights outnumber the ones with strategy. 



> And out of these dozens of volumes there was really only one big battle where the BoTH was showcased...where there was strategy. You're arguing over the most petty of things.



Out of those dozens of volumes we see Griffith lead the Band of the Hawk into battle a couple of times. Only once do we see real strategy in play. Thus, it proves my point that Berserk is not very concerned with strategy. 



> And there's no political intrigue and character development in Berserk? Really?



Very little politics, at least when compared to other series. I explicitly said in my previous posts that Berserk's characterization is one of its main draws though. 



> To have a problem with deus ex machinas you'd have to actually understand what they are, which you obviously don't, as the two examples you've mentioned don't fit at all.



A deus ex machina is person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty. Incidentally, Skull Knight comes along when Guts is in a situation he cannot get out of to save his ass.


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## jux (Jan 10, 2010)

yo586 said:


> My love for Berserk has been tried the past 3 or so years with the lethargic release dates, but it still remains a top 5 manga for me.
> 
> Mostly, it is just the epic dark environment Miura puts together so damn well that made me fall in love.  This is seinen at its best, resplendent with gory fierce battle scenes and chilling rape that makes you really hate the bad guys.
> 
> ...





iamthewalrus said:


> long post, but I read yours so you should read mine
> 
> don't quite understand you reasoning.  You say berserk is mediocre compared to the fantasy/medieval lit you've read yourself, but how is this case different to any other manga?  You can say that for a lot of different mangas when comparing them to literature.  Of course a manga story is going to be mediocre when comparing a story from a different media to it, a comic's strength is the execution of telling a story visually, sometimes the originality doesn't matter as much.
> 
> ...





Canute87 said:


> berserk started off slow to me. Reading though 100+pages in the first few chapters was annoying to say the least.
> 
> But when i reached the golden age i could not stop reading. Chapter after chapter got me hooked.
> 
> ...




These post summate my feelings


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