# Kakashi Hatake's INSANE FEATS: Analysis & Portrayal [Immortals, Pain, War]. Let's Roll!



## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

_*Kakashi Hatake's INSANE FEATS: *
*Analysis & Portrayal [Immortals, Pain, War]. *_​
_Rebuttal-based analysis and breakdown inspired by a certain user's post which I heavily disagree with._ ​
Objectives:

Clear up some misunderstandings, misconceptions and misrepresentations regarding Kakashi's feats in aforementioned arcs.
Describe Kakashi's majestic portrayal as a character (brilliant job by Kishimoto)!
Provide a bank of Kakashi-related intel with court-accepted evidence.
Allow room for debate and refinement.
Provide superb images for your relaxed reading of this educational 4000-word post.


*Let's roll!*




Someone said:


> Rereading the manga a few times after the Viz translations became available made me realize he isn't as strong as I thought portrayal wise. Some things change while some things remain the same.


While it would be interesting to understand how the translations affected your view, unfortunately, *nowhere* in your response did you refer to the differences in translations and how they affected your previous perceptions. "Some things remain the same"? This does not apply to Kakashi as this man evolves throughout the entire series.

​



Someone said:


> In part one he was shown to be one of the strongest Jounin but when it came to Kage lvl ninja such as the Sannin or Itachi or Hiruzen, it was quite clear he wasn't up to their lvl.


Indeed. He was one of the strongest Jōnin in Part 1. Thing about *Kakashi's portrayal as a character* is... as a man who had lost everything, he was still growing with what he felt he had responsibility over. Those other guys you mentioned (The Sannin, Itachi, Hiruzen...) were pretty much at or near their prime levels (except old Hiruzen). Kakashi Hatake, however, had yet to grow - and, indeed, this copy ninja would soon be in a league of his own.

​



Someone said:


> That's fine nothing wrong with that. Then we go to part two and once again Kakashi notes that he can't take Itachi on himself so he's still not at the Kage's lvl yet. That's fine still. Then he runs into Deidara and he doesn't do much besides Kamui upon which is a great new jutsu but he can't fully control it so it has it's drawbacks but that was against a Deidara who was already low on clay and chakra. And then he's out for the next arc.


This portrayal only better serves to demonstrate just *how powerful* (or potentially powerful) that Jutsu was, seeing as how it put Kakashi in hospital, and is also yet another demonstration of Kakashi's growth and durability as a ninja.

​



Someone said:


> So lets skip to his fight against the immortals along with Ino-Shika-Cho. Kakashi was om defense the entire fight. Like the entire fight lol. Only time he wasn't being overwhelmed or on defense was when he blindsided a Kakuzu who didn't even know Kakashi was there. Like do you think Sage Mode Naruto or Jiraiya or Itachi or Minato or Kabuto wouldn't be able to get in any offense at all? I don't lol.


Indeed, *Kakuzu was shocked that he couldn't even sense Kakashi*; that is how adept a ninja he is (). In that moment, Kakashi's experience of using the Sharingan was depicted to be very profound. Learning that it was an Earth Style Jutsu just from hand signs, Kakashi attacked with Lightning Style, gaining the advantage and taking out a heart already (). This portrayal serves as an embodiment of Kakashi's experience and is heightened as Shikamaru's team calls him as the "master" he is, several times in fact ().

Notably, *Kakashi's excellence and mastery of the Lightning affinity* was such that led to him blocking the _Lightning Style: False Darkness_ Jutsu released by one of Kakuzu's shadows, with what looked like shock absorption via the Lightning Blade (). This led Kakashi to having grazed hands in a pose of sheer defiance.

​
*With those same grazed hands* (imagine how much the following would hurt), Kakashi wielded a *Kunai* *knife* in the violent, blood-lusted, Taijutsu-based offence against Hidan, who had wielded a long-range, triple-bladed scythe which obviously had the advantage; Kakashi received praise for his skill () from an enemy. Kakashi simultaneously fended off being fatally wounded by the shadows' attacks (, ). This, after he had already taken a kick to the stomach by Kakuzu and a direct blast from the _Wind Style: Pressure Damage_ Jutsu discharged by the shadow which ripped his outer clothes to shreds () and blew off his headband, resulting in his hair now being able to slightly cover his eyes. This, as Kakashi was also protecting and looking out for his team mates at the same time, nearly dying in the fight before his team mates () - at the start of the mission, it's what he said to Tsunade that he would do (, ). Kakashi is a tank.

He was also depicted as a badass in that moment as he arrived to aid the team of the late Asuma. Moreover, setting his life on the line for his comrades is what resulted in his sacrifice during Pain's onslaught, adding substance to the fact that Kakashi always looks out for his team mates just like he did when put up against the immortal duo.

​
Yet, how does one dare boast the audacity to *attempt to belittle Kakashi* by stating he was on "defense the entire fight"? That statement isn't true. Because it was more than that. As was previously alluded to, Kakashi's is a story of loss and regrowth. Kakuzu mentions how Kakashi was the "first to have survived [that] routine" (). Yet another highlight of his skill by an enemy.

It is completely *illogical and irrelevant* to compare this Kakashi to those characters you mentioned (SM Naruto, Jiraiya, Itachi, Minato, Kabuto) as many of them you just praised, or think of, as Kage-level. So why even compare them to Kakashi at all? Why bring Kage-level ninja into the argument if you think this Kakashi is not kage-level? It is simply illogical to compare them at present; of course, Kage-level ninja might be able to put in some, or a lot of, offence - but, with that said, even some of them would likely find it difficult to protect their team at the same time. Most villainous characters know taking hostage of the team member(s) is the devil's strategy, which the immortal duo could resort to if they realise they're outclassed. Bearing that in mind, I deem it true that even some Kage-level ninja would likely find it difficult to dish out offensive attacks whilst simultaneously protecting their team mates in case the worst were attempted.

Plus, you seem to be forgetting that Shikamaru's brilliant strategy alongside *Kakashi's tactile versatility* is what led to the Leaf successfully defeating Hidan and Kakuzu. Without that preparation time, knowledge and tact, even some Kage-level members, again, are likely to struggle against the immortal duo who were strongly portrayed as not to be underestimated (). The stone-cold Kakuzu, who steals the hearts of others for a living, fought the First Hokage and lived to tell the tale (, ). The murderous Hidan, who mostly became dismembered and burned alive due to Shikamaru's plan, died with a maniacal laugh, threatening Shikamaru that he would chew him to bits upon the Church of Jashin ().




Someone said:


> Then Kakashi doesn't do much fighting in their pursuit of Itachi.


Umm... Are you referring to chapter 365, titled "Pursue Itachi"? If he didn't get a chance to, it is unclear how this is relevant at all.




Someone said:


> So now we go to the Pain arc where he fought Deva path and Asura path. In the first exchange Kakashi gets outdone and stabbed against Deva path and was having problems deal with the two paths which made Kakashi note that it was crazy for Jiraiya to fight six of them. Then Kakashi gets some help that took out Asura path for a while. Then Kakashi shows off his tactical skills trying to land a blow on Deva path but in the end Kakashi with the help of a handful of people still lose and Kakashi ends up dying.


Let's refer to *Kishimoto's portrayal* for a second, rather than the somewhat denigrated mirage presented in the quote above.

In Pain's Assault arc, there are *literally two chapters titled after Kakashi*. Chapter 422 is titled "Kakashi Vs Pain!!". I do not recall anyone else, bar Naruto, who received this kind of hyped feature in that arc. Chapter 425 is titled "Hatake Kakashi", and in that chapter Kakashi is shown to be conversing with his father within something resembling an afterlife (). I do not recall any other character in the entire series who has this kind of dialogue, bar Naruto. These two feats authored by Kishimoto are an amalgamation of his display of dedication to the character of Hatake Kakashi.

​
*Kakashi,* *like the boss he is*, stood about 50cm away directly from Deva (). This scene was CLEARLY portrayed as a mastery of absolute badassery: you observe Kakashi's dominant position; you bear witness to Kakashi's hand easily gripping the rod, saving the life of a shocked Iruka; you can see Deva's all-seeing Rinnegan muted down to a tiny trapezoid panel; Deva's trapezoid panel is sharply contrasted with the larger panel of Kakashi's Sharingan alongside Kakashi's calculating affirmations ().

While it is true that Deva does eventually "defeat" Kakashi, *you make it seem like he does so with no difficulty*. What you've done is completely misleading and unrepresentative. Let's look at the scenes a little closer to see what has been omitted/misrepresented.

*In reality*, Kakashi swiftly dodges Pain's kick and leaps down to raise a dense mud wall ().
Kakashi's mud wall differs from the Third in that he manipulates pre-existing earth (because he's just that adept), his wall features bulldog sculptures, and he uses it to box foes in to prevent them from escaping.

In response, the cold-hearted Deva only manages to pull back his foot (nice move...) and stab Kakashi - in the shoulder - but not anywhere vital (despite having a Rinnegan). Kakashi immediately follows up with a Lightning Blade () with little to no lag time, despite getting stabbed. Deva's neck is shown to be quite far away from the blast, indicating how powerful that move was - or would have been, had it landed. In fact, Lightning Blade was right up in Deva's face, as shown in the panel. It was shown that the only reason he dodged it was because of his Rinnegan prowess. Also, clearly conveyed, Kakashi did not have the intel to know what that was as can be inferred from his surprised response ().

​
Even though Asura popped into the ring, *Kakashi was very sure he was going to slice him up* (). Clearly, Kakashi could have destroyed this Path one-on-one. Again, you can see how sharply Asura had to move - he could barely react which is why the fast momentum of his body jerk left him in that bent physical state (). But, unfortunately, two Rinnegan-utilising Paths had to team up on Kakashi who had only _one_ 3-Tomoe Sharingan. What this displays is Kakashi's insane speed and battle skill, such that Deva () and Asura bent their neck/back quite the distance.

You are right about Kakashi mentioning Jiraiya taking on six of them at once - and Jiraiya was very strong - but *even Jiraiya struggled when he had to fight more than one at a time*. Even the elder toad, Fukusaku, notes that when someone faces pain, they must only fight them one on one.

Not only did *Kakashi have a plan* to take out Asura () even after exhausting half his Chakra on a Lightning Doppelganger (), but yet again, *Kakashi is complimented* by his enemy, this time right after appearing from beneath the ground and surprising Deva such that *he stated Kakashi needed to be killed so as to not become a nuisance later* (, ). Then, *Deva is shocked yet* again, this time by Kakashi's skilful stringing of a chain underground (). Kakashi's strategic plan and meticulous execution of timing was not supported by a "handful of people", as the quote in blue would assert, but rather by only two people, including a Chūnin and a lower-tier Jōnin, both with essentially the same skill set. At least they did manage to follow-through on Kakashi's plan in the heat of the battle against Pain - their feat rings bells regarding the brilliance of Kakashi's tactics and the weaknesses of Deva's defence. In fact, *Deva's frightened face* () nearly got bladed by Kakashi's lightning thrust, except Deva's rear end was saved in the nick of time by the machine-like, robotic Asura. Deva then seemed to severely damage Kakashi, Choji and Choji's dad. But...

Just to be *absolutely clear* about *just* *how on-guard Deva* was in the vicinity of Kakashi Hatake of the Sharingan, take a moment to read exactly what happened after injuring the trio. Even though you (and Deva) can clearly see what state Kakashi's in, and even though Deva dictated that he *knew* Kakashi was not using a shadow clone, *he still motioned himself to be* *absolutely safe*. Precisely, Deva stated these exact words: "Just to be absolutely safe... I'm not going near him." *THAT'S how scared* and cautious Kakashi caused Deva to be () - and it's no wonder... With his torrent of tricks and surprises, some even say that Kakashi made Deva feel pain - the pain of frustration.

​
Deva, *who was way too close to Kakashi*, flings a needle which is depicted as very fast (). You would think that, this time, the all-seeing Pain () would realise Kakashi's tricks by now - BUT NO - *Deva has absolutely no comprehension regarding what Kakashi just did even though he briefly stared *at him and then cautiously turned his head away. That's how _extremely_ skilled Kakashi is. Just look at how BADASS Kakashi looks, on the verge of death, as he prioritises Choji's mission to get the intel delivered - NO WONDER Kakashi is the intelligence master () - DAMN!!


*Kakashi used KAMUI on that goddamn needle at POINT-BLANK RANGE  in order to FAKE his death ()!*

Although you would think that most ninja would probably faint before their Chakra is completely depleted, *Kakashi is able to use the absolute last of his Chakra*, saving Choji's life and dying in the process as he uses Kamui on that missile (). The missile had four panels of swift movement - a *completely exhausted Kakashi* (look at his sweat, blood, torn skin and weary eyes for god's sake) *was able to* *both focus on that fast moving object and warp it in time* so that Choji, who was already injured and running for dear life, didn't die ().

​
*What an absolute beast.*

It is *unbelievable *how severely some people downplay Kakashi by omitting these crucial facts to help understand the character and his abilities better. If someone says they re-read the manga with this limiting vision, then they clearly read with a bias or lack of depth.




Someone said:


> Next lets go to his next fight which was against a weakened and tired MS Sasuke. Kakashi ends up needing Kamui in order to deal with *two casual arrows*(which he got one of them). Now that's a double edge thing because while it's a good feat for how fast he can use Kamui now, it also shows how he was helpless to do anything else and if it wasn't for the fact that Sasuke lost his Susanoo and went almost completely blind then Sasuke would've likely killed him. And that doesn't show Kakashi to be all that strong to me.


"Two casual arrows". The degree of this *misrepresentation* baffles me. Put this into perspective.

Kakashi, who is *not even an Uchiha*, who had _not yet mastered the Mangekyō Sharingan_, _warped away a large and fast arrow_, that even he _acknowledged as surprisingly fast_, at a _very short distance_, from a _blood-lusted, full-blooded Uchiha_, who was _training day and night_ _and had Mangekyō Sharingan_ (). You can tell that Sasuke's Mangekyō Sharingan was working well and isn't notably hindered by Sasuke's exhaustion at least because of how fast it reloads a second time but more so due to the vigour, flair and speed with which it’s presented within the panel (the second arrow was arguably more aided by rage, however.) Obviously, the second arrow fades as Sasuke pretty much exhausts his Chakra (at least as much as necessary to prevent MS from working anymore) and overexerts the limits that his eye can physically take (), leading him to lose vision.

​
Kakashi probably wouldn't have been able to dodge that second shot without getting somewhat damaged, damaged probably to the degree that resulted when previously struck by the _Wind Style: Pressure Damage_ Jutsu (a fitting name, apparently). However, it _is _also possible that he could have dodged it - Kakashi usually has something up his sleeve. On the other hand, it is clear that the Mangekyō Sharingan had placed much strain on his body so it would have been pretty difficult to dodge it, yet alone trying to think about otherwise blocking its usage, and even Kakashi *knew* *that situation was not ideal* ().

It is likely the chapter was inconsistent with power scaling (by considering later chapters). It is safe to say that Sasuke's Mangekyō Sharingan really was portrayed as that strong under those conditions - don't forget the conditions. Regardless, if you think Kakashi's not all that strong because of this one scene where he may not have been able to block two super strong arrows from a very short distance against a full-blooded, blood-lusted Uchiha with Mangekyō Sharingan, then you've just naively and royally downplayed one of the greatest characters in all of fiction because of a single inconvenient match-up, and possibly to what seems to be an inconsistent segment on the part of Kishimoto. Well... Hey, it happens to the best of us.




Someone said:


> Then it's the war arc.


The *excellence of Kakashi's War Arc feats* are outlined .




Someone said:


> So up to this point in time Kakashi while having some cool moments but in the grand picture he's not really looking all that impressive when he's constantly on defense and constantly losing even when he has help. At least imo he's not portrayed as Kage lvl or at the least he's not portrayed to be anything above Low Kage lvl.


*You simply fail to comprehend Kakashi's intellect, battle wit and combat skills*. Kakashi's growth (and growth still into the latter parts of the war) led to an unprecedented mastery of the Mangekyō Sharingan technique, Kamui, such that even surprised the mask out of Obito Uchiha, who, needless to say, yet necessary for some people, was an Uchiha. Just one example... Bijuu Mode Naruto's clone was already moving at a rapid pace even though stakes were flying through the air. Kakashi activated Kamui by initially starting to warp the Rasengan (). In order to make Naruto's clone seem to go BOOF, Kakashi needed to, amongst stake obstacles in the air, transmute the focus of Kamui's volume of range almost instantaneously from the Rasengan to Naruto, AND THEN ALSO WARP HIM INSTANTANEOUSLY as well at the EXACT RIGHT TIME, ALL WITHOUT OBITO NOTICING ()!!!

Obito, an Uchiha, who had practised the Mangekyō Sharingan longer than Kakashi, only then realised his mistake and said exactly this: "He beat me to it... Kakashi, You...!" Obito Uchiha was utterly surprised, shocked and at a loss for words (). Even so, I prefer the unofficial translation of this scene, where Obito exclaims "Damn Kakashi! Faster than the stake!" as Kakashi's use of Kamui was literally faster than the stake that was warping out of Obito's space-time at an incredible rate, the stake that you can see in the panel where Naruto vanishes ().

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*"Grand picture"*? Kakashi and Gai were portrayed as "THE MASTERS" at the end of chapter 566!!! Already, more than once, Kakashi has been presented as a saviour in the show. If that, along with their timing, and feats thereafter, is not a portrayal of Kage-level ninja, then I do not know what is (). You've also got to realise one thing... all of these guys here are pretty much the strongest ninja, or else why turn up to the battlefield which houses the final bosses of the fiercest ninja war?

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Someone said:


> He fights the seven swordsmen and needs help to take out Zabuza in a timely matter. This doesn't show Kakashi off to be all that much stronger then his part one self who also had troubles and to further it the fight played out alot like it did in part one lol.


Pretty much everyone had help against everyone. If I recall correctly, he took them out pretty quickly. *After going berserk before arriving to help Naruto*, it really makes you wonder how he pulled all of that off and still managed to do what he did.




Someone said:


> But then it gets slightly better. Kakashi pops up to fights the Jins which is cool since he landed hits on them. But it's not as impressive as it could be since the Jins stopped using Jutsu for whatever reason and all they did while in V2 against him was physical attacks. But in the end he couldn't really do anything to them and was gonna lose to them. Then they go Bijuu Mode and Naruto+B deals with them. So against the Jins Kakashi didn't do much besides cut off some chakra arms but otherwise he didn't do much but stall and even then he didn't have to deal with their jutsu like Naruto and B did which pressured them so it's still not too impressive to me although it's impressive.


Scans/References?





Someone said:


> For the rest of the time he's mainly just spamming Kamui against Obito but the only reason why he's able to do such is because *he got to sit back and relax without having to worry about being attacked or anything* and he got to focus and gather enough chakra for every use. Good feats with Kamui but not something he'd likely be able to do on his own. And to add to it the more he used his MS, the more he went blind in his eye.


 Hahaha...

That quote shows a lack of comprehension of the _*WAR*_ arc and all the complex things that were happening at the same time during it that to even suggest such a bold proposition is completely absurd, in my view.

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Someone said:


> He fought Obito and beat him in boxland which seems impressive at first but then we're told that Obito was playing Kakashi and tricked Kakashi which lead to Obito becoming the Juubi Jin and Kakashi fell right for it. So it's not really all that impressive as we thought it was because of a sandbagging Obito.


Much of it was a Taijutsu battle to the death, not an accurate depiction of their full array of skills utilised at full health. The flashback was basically insinuating that Kakashi still wins.

​
Even if Obito did lead him there on purpose, he still lost the fight and tried to kill Kakashi - why would he want Kakashi alive at that point? Or am I missing something?




Someone said:


> So basically Kakashi had some cool moments throughout the war arc but in general outside of his feats with Kamui, he didn't do to much that made him seem like he was on a next lvl to put him an entire tier above the likes of Mei or Kakuzu or Hebi Sasuke, etc. hence why I find him to be Low Kage lvl nowadays


No.

He didn't have "some" cool moments throughout the war. *Kakashi had multiple badass moments where he showed off his ability as a sharp tactician, battle strategist, master combatant, resilient ninja and genuine human* (about to waver at one point) during the war arc, much like in the whole series. In the war arc, however, his particular use of Kamui, along with his strategic battle planning hosted on-the-spot, excelled brilliantly; Kakashi's experience and growth is what led to this. Seriously, read the entirety of the  of the _'War-arc Kakashi is an absolute beast'_ thread again.

Some of you may have *severely* downplayed Kakashi Hatake of the Sharingan, one of the best characters in all of written fiction.

All these feats, for the man who would soon become Hokage!

(...and, in episode 95 of Boruto, live to inform adult Sasuke of Jiraiya's tips.  )

​

_When I had spoken to Master Kakashi on the phone, he told me to thank you for reading this post. He added that if you had critically read all of this, then you may be on the verge of perfecting the Sharingan...!_​

Reactions: Like 3


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## Shazam (Mar 4, 2019)

This is awesome!

Great work man


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## Omote (Mar 4, 2019)

I'm convinced if you type long enough essays here people automatically give you free likes

I remember when 6 people liked Turrin's SM Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama..six! 

Good thread, but most of this is pretty basic information and enforces Kakashi's place as a mid-tier in the Naruto universe amongst people like the Gokage, Sannin, the lower tier Akatsuki members(besides Hidan ofc) etc

Reactions: Like 5


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## LostSelf (Mar 4, 2019)

Give this man a medal for the long post. I'll give my take on the matter later on, might save this post for that.


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## Shazam (Mar 4, 2019)

Omote said:


> I'm convinced if you type long enough essays here people automatically give you free likes



Its called appreciating the effort whether or not you agree or disagree

seems like something you're not familiar with

Reactions: Like 5


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## Omote (Mar 4, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Its called appreciating the effort whether or not you agree or disagree
> 
> seems like something you're not familiar with



Yes, if the effort is complete garbage(not his post, just in general), there's no point in even bothering.

Just a waste of time reading a useless wall of text


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## Ishmael (Mar 4, 2019)

Omote said:


> Good thread, but most of this is pretty basic information and enforces Kakashi's place as a mid-tier in the Naruto universe amongst people like the Gokage, Sannin, the lower tier Akatsuki members(besides Hidan ofc) etc



Does him justice tbh, most treat him like shit and place him in low kage, hes solid mid tier. With the hax to compete with some high kage.


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## MarF (Mar 4, 2019)

Jeez, I feel like I traveled a few years back in time and opened an IzayaOrihara thread.

 like this one. Take some rep for the effort and giving me a nostalgia trip

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (Mar 4, 2019)

I mentioned it once before and I will say it again.

Back in Part 1 Kakashi was introduced to us to use as a benchmark of what a Jonin is capable of.

Granted this backfired big time over the course of the story as he became too important as one of the MCs while the power creep kept skyrocketing.

And instead of introducing new techniques/forms/whatever for Kakashi, Kishi just went full lazy mode and introduced a fundamentally broken MS jutsu which didn't change all that much either.

Kishimoto honestly just fucked up big time.


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## Omote (Mar 4, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Does him justice tbh, most treat him like shit and place him in low kage, hes solid mid tier. With the hax to compete with some high kage.



Maybe people just have different standards for their tiers? 

Personally, whenever I think of low tiers I think of Chiyo, Mifune, Darui, Rusty Hanzo, etc

Maybe one day I will make my own tier list


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## Shazam (Mar 4, 2019)

Kakashi is a character that can bang out with high kage tiers in team fights because of Kamui and being a top tier strategist. His solo performances are still pretty good, however he fits better in the low-mid kage group in 1v1s. His character is very unique in this aspect compared to most.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sorin (Mar 4, 2019)

Omote said:


> I'm convinced if you type long enough essays here people automatically give you free likes
> 
> I remember when 6 people liked Turrin's SM Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama..six!
> 
> Good thread, but most of this is pretty basic information and enforces Kakashi's place as a mid-tier in the Naruto universe amongst people like the Gokage, Sannin, the lower tier Akatsuki members(besides Hidan ofc) etc



I agree with this. While the effort and post are very good, it isn't new information that would put him in some higher tier. I don't even agree with Bonly's posts mind you. I think he can hang with any kage(exclude the hokages) in the war, some of the battles he would lose, some of them he would win but he absolutely is around that level. It all depends how you rate each caharacter's level. Some will rate him higher, some lower, I don't think it's necessary to make a whole new thread about it, but that's just me. 

Btw Kakashi is my favorite character as well, by some distance so I really don't have any biases against him, quite the contrary.


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 4, 2019)

Omote said:


> I remember when 6 people liked Turrin's SM Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama..six!


Kabuto is stronger get over it founders man.. Kabuto can just sit on his ass and let his Edos solo


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

OP  "_Rebuttal-based analysis and breakdown inspired by @Bonly 's post which I heavily disagree with._ "

My stalker "This is clearly an appreciation post only instead of it be a rebuttal to someone's opinion which would inspire them to reply back"

Gotta love the Kakashi fanboys

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 4, 2019)

R.I.P Bonly.

Great post +reps

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Mar 4, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> R.I.P Bonly


Aw.. I thought he got banned or something, you got my hopes up


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## Santoryu (Mar 4, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Aw.. I thought he got banned or something, you got my hopes up



Sadly not. Had him on the block list for a while as the lewdness was affecting my brain cells. He's not even mildly entertaining. Posts like "Kamui or bust" and using a near blind Kakashi in matches have unfortunately influenced even some parts of the NBD community.

At least someone like Omote is funny with his anti Kakashi posts.


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## Sorin (Mar 4, 2019)

What I'd like to say though is that acting like his shit doesn't smell is not doing a certain one any favours. When you have part 1 kimimaro above part 1 kakashi, then you should start to look yourself in the mirror more often instead of flinging insults about "fanboys" left and right.


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## Zembie (Mar 4, 2019)

Sorin said:


> When you have* part 1 kimimaro above part 1 kakashi*, then you should start to look yourself in the mirror more often instead of flinging insults about "fanboys" left and right.



Do people seriously think that Kimimaro is above Kakashi?


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## ~Kakashi~ (Mar 4, 2019)

There's nothing "insane" about Kakashi's pre-war feats. He was among the lowest of low kages in part 2 due to his low chakra reserves. But the entire purpose of his character was supposed to be he won with his mind, not his physical abilities, but there was only so far that could take him(see being outmatched by Kakuzu). Kishimoto ruined what his character was supposed to be(no surprise, he ruined a lot in the war arc) and gave him seemingly endless stamina to fight Zabuza, go on his rampage, then fight for a while vs Obito and jins before finally needing Kurama's chakra.

Kishimoto should have let Kakashi die in the Pain arc and left his character in tact.

There was never another fight that showcased what Kakashi was supposed to be about quite like his two fights with Zabuza. Breaking and beating him mentally, then physically. It was a thing of beauty. Chapter 15 and chapters 29-32 are pretty much Kakashi porn.


*Spoiler*: __ 



























Those are the Kakashi moments that threads should be made about. Not this shippuden trash.


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## Sorin (Mar 4, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Do people seriously think that Kimimaro is above Kakashi?



Yes, they do. And that's the sick one, whatever the healthy one means.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Omote said:


> I'm convinced if you type long enough essays here people automatically give you free likes
> 
> I remember when 6 people liked Turrin's SM Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama..six!
> 
> Good thread, but most of this is pretty basic information and enforces Kakashi's place as a mid-tier in the Naruto universe amongst people like the Gokage, Sannin, the lower tier Akatsuki members(besides Hidan ofc) etc



So... you came in here with the bias of thinking that longer posts are somehow less worthy just because they're longer? Then, you realised that this was actually a good post, without mentioning what parts. 

You, sir, are being very general about the way you see things. 
*
This is not pretty basic information at all*. Who talks about Kakashi's grazed hands having an impact on his handling of a single Kunai knife against a fricking scythe? Who talks about Kakashi's headband falling off and that consequently letting his hair partially cover his eyes? Who talks about how he only had one Sharingan against two Paths and shocked Deva multiple times that the guy realised he had to take him out immediately? Who talks about how he activated Kamui amongst the distracting stakes? Who talks about his manipulation of the Earth affinity, let alone his sheer mastery of the lightning affinity? Who talks about the immense praise he receives time and time again from his enemies?

Yeah, let's shrug it off as "pretty basic information" (no offense to you, but you are looking at things too general, although you are funny sometimes so that's entertaining). 

If you still think Kakashi (you didn't even specify which one, so I'll assume WA) is only mid-tier amongst people who haven't even scratched the surface of displaying the amount of insane feats as he has, then you have a lot of studying to do, plus revision on top of that.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

MarF said:


> Jeez, I feel like I traveled a few years back in time and opened an IzayaOrihara thread.
> 
> like this one. Take some rep for the effort and giving me a nostalgia trip



Holy sh*t that guy's possibly on Raikiri19 levels! Well, his name is the infamous Orihaya Izaya after all!



Thanks for the intel!


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Sorin said:


> I agree with this. While the effort and post are very good, it isn't new information that would put him in some higher tier. I don't even agree with Bonly's posts mind you. I think he can hang with any kage(exclude the hokages) in the war, some of the battles he would lose, some of them he would win but he absolutely is around that level. It all depends how you rate each caharacter's level. Some will rate him higher, some lower, I don't think it's necessary to make a whole new thread about it, but that's just me.
> 
> Btw Kakashi is my favorite character as well, by some distance so I really don't have any biases against him, quite the contrary.



On the part where you say it's not new information, I disagree with that part. 

While it's not new information, I believe I've certainly introduced many different ways of looking at things. For example, I've not seen anyone talk about how Kakashi Kamui'd among stake distractions, how enemies constantly praise him etc. Read quote below. 

But it's awesome that Kakashi is your favourite character too!



Omote said:


> I'm convinced if you type long enough essays here people automatically give you free likes
> 
> I remember when 6 people liked Turrin's SM Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama..six!
> 
> Good thread, but most of this is pretty basic information and enforces Kakashi's place as a mid-tier in the Naruto universe amongst people like the Gokage, Sannin, the lower tier Akatsuki members(besides Hidan ofc) etc





Mad Scientist said:


> So... you came in here with the bias of thinking that longer posts are somehow less worthy just because they're longer? Then, you realised that this was actually a good post, without mentioning what parts.
> 
> You, sir, are being very general about the way you see things.
> *
> ...


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Omote said:


> If it's gonna be a fucking appreciation thread get the character's dick out your mouth and try to look at his feats objectively
> 
> Most of these fights Kakashi got his ass kicked but delusional fans still spin it into some type of W...



When you say delusional fans still spin Kakashi's losses some type of way, are you referring to me?

If you are, can you give 3 examples of how I have warped the facts?

Thanks, if you can.


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## Trojan (Mar 4, 2019)

Kakashi is what Jonin-level should be.


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## Grinningfox (Mar 4, 2019)

Meh


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 4, 2019)

When will the Kakashi wank end?


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Bonly said:


> OP  "_Rebuttal-based analysis and breakdown inspired by @Bonly 's post which I heavily disagree with._ "
> 
> My stalker "This is clearly an appreciation post only instead of it be a rebuttal to someone's opinion which would inspire them to reply back"
> 
> Gotta love the Kakashi fanboys



I don't stalk you, but you must want me to, because then you'd be correct. Unfortunately, you're not correct. 

I am not sure why you come across as so personally offended. This post used your misrepresentations and omissions as a small springboard, but it's not centred about you. Thanks for reading and giving your opinions.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> When will the Kakashi wank end?



Hey, thanks for popping along. 

Can you give me 3 criticisms of what I posted?

Thank you.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 4, 2019)

Most people already know all of this to be honest. So I dont think this is an eye opener or anything for most people. Also you should use spoiler tags on the images to prevent the post from being so long. Other than that this is a well constructed post.


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## Kisame (Mar 4, 2019)

Those panels look so nice, did they come like that or did you edit them?


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Sorin said:


> What I'd like to say though is that acting like his shit doesn't smell is not doing a certain one any favours. When you have part 1 kimimaro above part 1 kakashi, then you should start to look yourself in the mirror more often instead of flinging insults about "fanboys" left and right.



It would be useful if I knew who you were talking about...


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Most people already know all of this to be honest. So I dont think this is an eye opener or anything for most people. Also you should use spoiler tags on the images to prevent the post from being so long. Other than that this is a well constructed post.



Thank you for explaining those tags and suggesting them. I might start integrating them. 

I disagree heavily about people knowing all that. Please refer to short quote below. 



Omote said:


> I'm convinced if you type long enough essays here people automatically give you free likes
> 
> I remember when 6 people liked Turrin's SM Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama..six!
> 
> Good thread, but most of this is pretty basic information and enforces Kakashi's place as a mid-tier in the Naruto universe amongst people like the Gokage, Sannin, the lower tier Akatsuki members(besides Hidan ofc) etc





Mad Scientist said:


> So... you came in here with the bias of thinking that longer posts are somehow less worthy just because they're longer? Then, you realised that this was actually a good post, without mentioning what parts.
> 
> You, sir, are being very general about the way you see things.
> *
> ...


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I don't stalk you, but you must want me to, because then you'd be correct. Unfortunately, you're not correct.



Wasn't talking about you buddy



> I am not sure why you come across as so personally offended. This post used your misrepresentations and omissions as a small springboard, but it's not centred about you. Thanks for reading and giving your opinions.



It pretty much is centered about me and my opinion otherwise you wouldn't have quoted me from a post that's over a month old and then reply to each point that I made.



Mad Scientist said:


> It would be useful if I knew who you were talking about...



He's talking about me because I read the manga that portrayed Kimi>Kakashi and he's one of those Kakashi fans that don't like that.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Shark said:


> Those panels look so nice, did they come like that or did you edit them?



Every manga image I had here has original snaps in the numerous hyperlinks. 

But yes, I did edit the ones that I thought were particularly revealing. I especially like the Lightning Style one with Kakashi's defiance, what was your favourite one?


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Wasn't talking about you buddy
> 
> It pretty much is centered about me and my opinion otherwise you wouldn't have quoted me from a post that's over a month old and then reply to each point that I made.
> 
> He's talking about me because I read the manga that portrayed Kimi>Kakashi and he's one of those Kakashi fans that don't like that.



Right, thanks for the clear up. And I disagree again, it is not centred around you, but rather, around Kakashi's feats. As I said, your post was a springboard and really did help. The post is rebuttal-based, but I repeat it is not revolving around you per se, but your posts were very useful material. 

But whatever floats your boat, I don't really mind.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> There's nothing "insane" about Kakashi's pre-war feats. He was among the lowest of low kages in part 2 due to his low chakra reserves. But the entire purpose of his character was supposed to be he won with his mind, not his physical abilities, but there was only so far that could take him(see being outmatched by Kakuzu). Kishimoto ruined what his character was supposed to be(no surprise, he ruined a lot in the war arc) and gave him seemingly endless stamina to fight Zabuza, go on his rampage, then fight for a while vs Obito and jins before finally needing Kurama's chakra.
> 
> Kishimoto should have let Kakashi die in the Pain arc and left his character in tact.
> 
> ...



Wow, some strong opinions there. I know that you're a great poster generally, but I am still a bit surprised. 

Great scans by the way. 

"There's nothing "insane" about Kakashi's pre-war feats."
"But the entire purpose of his character was supposed to be he won with his mind, not his physical abilities"
"Kishimoto ruined what his character was supposed to be"

I disagree with the above statements, while they are somewhat interesting to see you look at it that way, even though you should have inferred from my post that Kishimoto had been developing Kakashi all along. In regards to battle ability, while I agree it was many times about his mind, there were many displays of his physical abilities, many highlights above.


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## dergeist (Mar 4, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Kakashi is what Jonin-level should be.



There are no jonin tier ninja in the new age


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## King1 (Mar 4, 2019)

Repped for the effort, and I love your scans


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Right, thanks for the clear up. And I disagree again, it is not centred around you, but rather, around Kakashi's feats. As I said, your post was a springboard and really did help. The post is rebuttal-based, but I repeat it is not revolving around you per se, but your posts were very useful material.
> 
> But whatever floats your boat, I don't really mind.



Sure it's not buddy, you keep telling yourself that to help you get through the night


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 4, 2019)

MarF said:


> Jeez, I feel like I traveled a few years back in time and opened an IzayaOrihara thread.
> 
> like this one. Take some rep for the effort and giving me a nostalgia trip


izayaorihara is the greatest poster in the history of the naruto battledome; no other man has written a 50,000 word dissertation for a match-up on a taiwanese finger painting forum before

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (Mar 4, 2019)

Atlantic Storm said:


> izayaorihara is the greatest poster in the history of the naruto battledome; no other man has written a 50,000 word dissertation for a match-up on a taiwanese finger painting forum before


I almost passed out scrolling down, where is this legend?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 4, 2019)

dergeist said:


> I almost passed out scrolling down, where is this legend?


it's been lost to time, but i think the best part of that thread was the fact that izayaorihara spent what must have been days writing out that thesis on why orochimaru is stronger than itachi and the first, almost immediate, response to his post(s) was a single cropped image of itachi stabbing orochimaru with the totsuka blade


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## Tri (Mar 4, 2019)

izaya is an anomaly

I never thought anyone could dedicate that much energy to being wrong before reading his posts


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 4, 2019)

i like to imagine izayaorihara took a load of adderall before writing that post


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Atlantic Storm said:


> i like to imagine izayaorihara took a load of adderall before writing that post


When all his links were removed, he must have drank some Lemsip.


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Shit nobody care about



Sorry but I don't have any interest in your opinion on Kakashi related things after reading the OP, your white knighting of trying to make everything he does seem like it's a god tier feat and can't accept when he's outdone is too much for me. Just like the other Kakashi fanboys of CF,San, and Raikiri who've I've been ignoring them for years, I'll ignore you when it comes to Kakashi but hey if you wanna debate about a different character you're not biased over then I'm down for that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Sorry but I don't have any interest in your opinion on Kakashi related things after reading the OP, your white knighting of trying to make everything he does seem like it's a god tier feat and can't accept when he's outdone is too much for me. Just like the other Kakashi fanboys of CF,San, and Raikiri who've I've been ignoring them for years, I'll ignore you when it comes to Kakashi but hey if you wanna debate about a different character you're not biased over then I'm down for that.



Tell me just one thing you believe I "white-knighted". Just one thing. 250 words max with your best evidence. Let's roll!

​


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Tell me just one thing you believe I "white-knighted". Just one thing. 250 words max with your best evidence. Let's roll!
> 
> ​



And he still hasn't learned what a spoiler tag is. If you want evidence just read my first post.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Bonly said:


> And he still hasn't learned what a spoiler tag is. If you want evidence just read my first post.



Ok, we don't have to talk about everything. But I will admit defeat if you can PROVE just ONE thing you believe I "white-knighted". Because I believe I was 99.9% objective, so if you think there's 0.01% hanging around somewhere, let's just focus on one thing, not everything. It will be much easier for us that way. And I promise I will limit my response to a few words as long as you do.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

@Shark Thoughts?

@Grinningfox Your post was very low-rate. Care to redeem yourself with just a measly 3 criticisms of my post?


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## Kisame (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @Shark Thoughts?


If you're really interested I can give my detailed thoughts on your entire post when I get the time.

However just so you know I will not be interested in a long back and forth so if you're willing to just take it as my opinion I'll do it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Ok, we don't have to talk about everything. But I will admit defeat if you can PROVE just ONE thing you believe I "white-knighted". Because I believe I was 99.9% objective, so if you think there's 0.01% hanging around somewhere, let's just focus on one thing, not everything. It will be much easier for us that way. And I promise I will limit my response to a few words as long as you do.



I don't care if you admit defeat or think you won or anything. If you don't think turning any/all negatives of Kakashi into "Well Kakashi is awesome because he did THIS!" then nothing I show you will register as white knighting


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Shark said:


> If you're interested I can give my detailed thoughts on your entire post.
> 
> However just so you know I will not be interested in a long back and forth so if you're willing to just take it as my opinion I'll do it.



Okay, I will not conduct a long post back and forth, upon your request. Let's roll!

​


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Bonly said:


> I don't care if you admit defeat or think you won or anything. If you don't think turning any/all negatives of Kakashi into "Well Kakashi is awesome because he did THIS!" then nothing I show you will register as white knighting



If you don't want to debate because you lost and are not equipped to respond back, I can understand that. 

But why did you get so angry and throw so many insults to the degree that made you seem personally offended? There was no reason nor need for that. Why did you do that?


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> If you don't want to debate because you lost and are not equipped to respond back, I can understand that.



Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy



> But why did you get so angry and throw so many insults to the degree that made you seem personally offended? There was no reason nor need for that. Why did you do that?



I call it like a see it. A fanboy is a fanboy, A wanker is a wanker. When you act like one then imma call you one. Pretty simple


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy
> 
> I call it like a see it. A fanboy is a fanboy



Wait, I thought I was your buddy though?

That's your issue, you see it like you want to see it. You refuse evidence and twist my words. For example, when I said Asura would get sliced, you took that to mean that I said Asura would get destroyed at that moment, yet you berated me for lying. 

Then, you called me a fanboy, implying that I over-exaggerate, when I provided tonnes of evidence and scans (yet you provided none). 

It seems like you are exaggerating my post, lying about what was posted, and were the one lacking evidence. 

Clearly, you have no comprehension of Kamui Shuriken. 

Here's your spoiler tag, because you had nothing else to criticise.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> @Shark Thoughts?
> 
> @Grinningfox Your post was very low-rate. Care to redeem yourself with just a measly 3 criticisms of my post?



Lol at the arrogance of assuming I need to “redeem” myself


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Lol at the arrogance of assuming I need to “redeem” myself



Lol the arrogance of merely muttering "Meh".

Did you even get one funny react at the time of posting? 

Nah, I didn't think so. To that, I respond with...

"Meh."


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## Grinningfox (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Lol the arrogance of merely muttering "Meh".
> 
> Did you even get one funny react at the time of posting?
> 
> ...



...

Was I attempting to “get a funny react”?

No 

I was ambivalent on the post and decided that the prospect of any serious engagement  on the topic was more trouble than it was worth.

Thus

Meh

Now leave me alone


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Wait, I thought I was your buddy though?



It's just a saying buddy



> That's your issue, you see it like you want to see it. You refuse evidence and twist my words. For example, when I said Asura would get sliced, you took that to mean that I said Asura would get destroyed at that moment, yet you berated me for lying.



In canon Asura path didn't get sliced from a direct hit of Raikiri but you think a potential Raikiri hit would've sliced him. See what I mean. 



> Then, you called me a fanboy, implying that I over-exaggerate, when I provided tonnes of evidence and scans (yet you provided none).



You are a fanboy though. And this is a problem with you people. You think just because you brought scans that means anything? Lol no. The problem with you is that you take a small thing and make it seem better then what it is. Kakashi gets outplayed by Deva path in their first exchange. Yet you can't just accept that, instead you make it all about Kakashi. Kakashi is so damn fast because he used an earth wall as he dodged and he dodged Deva who's not known for his speed but Kakashi is just so swift . Kakashi is so damn adept with earth jutsu because he used pre existing earth as if all the other Doton users can't do that. Deva did land a hit but it wasn't a vital spit even though he has the Rinnegan as if having the Rinnegan means the user will always attack a vital spot. The only "evidence" you brought up was to white knight Kakashi to make his failures seem more impressive then what they really are.




> It seems like you are exaggerating my post, lying about what was posted, and were the one lacking evidence.
> 
> Clearly, you have no comprehension of Kamui Shuriken.
> 
> Here's your spoiler tag, because you had nothing else to criticise.



Cry as much as you want bud, won't change anything.


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## Santoryu (Mar 4, 2019)

Thread could also be titled: The end of Bonly's Naruto Forums Career


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 4, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Thread could also be titled: The end of Bonly's Naruto Forums Career


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 5, 2019)

Will keep it short. 
Respect the reduced lewdness - good job  

You're right about the pre-existing mud and how Pain's not known for his speed. 



Bonly said:


> In canon Asura path didn't get sliced from a direct hit of Raikiri but you think a potential Raikiri hit would've sliced him. See what I mean.



Asura shown as vulnerable and cracked ( top-left) all over as he's machine-like; strike was from a lower momentum attack (compare:  top,  bottom). Very likely Kakashi would've sliced if previous hit. 



Bonly said:


> Kakashi gets outplayed by Deva path in their first exchange.



Already acknowledged, but Kakashi outplayed him too. What's important are feats. Kakashi was shown to be stronger, faster and smarter. Kakashi surprised plenty, eventually leaving him needing to feel absolutely safe, formed a plan that would have been the end of Deva if not for Asura, plus outplayed him at needle point. 




Bonly said:


> Kakashi is so damn adept with earth jutsu because he used pre existing earth as if all the other Doton users can't do that.



Correct. Still, Kakashi has been a fond user of the Earth style so it's already implied and shown he's got good affinity with it - he is adept with Earth style.




Bonly said:


> Deva did land a hit but it wasn't a vital spit even though he has the Rinnegan as if having the Rinnegan means the user will always attack a vital spot.


So Deva can dodge Lightning Blade at point-blank but can't attack a vital spot? Could be because he's slow, then, as we both seem to have implied, or maybe there was a lag time like ST.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Good effort, but I don’t really see a point. Kakashi is a solid Ninja but his feats/ portrayal atleast during Naruto places him at the Top of Low-Kage with a good amount of potential in team situations allowing him to use Kamui and his intelligence more effectively in a group. So if your saying he is can beat most Low-Kage and is an excellent Ninja I agree; but he isn’t on the level of any high Kage due to his over reliance on Kamui to compete.


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Good effort, but I don’t really see a point. Kakashi is a solid Ninja but his feats/ portrayal atleast during Naruto places him at the Top of Low-Kage with a good amount of potential in team situations allowing him to use Kamui and his intelligence more effectively in a group. So if your saying he is can beat most Low-Kage and is an excellent Ninja I agree; but he isn’t on the level of any high Kage due to his over reliance on Kamui to compete.



I agree, but honestly, given Kakashi's strengths, he is more valuable than some high kage tier in a group fight situation, so his placement varies depending on the situation at hand. And the manga consists mostly of group fights rather than 1v1s like in the CE


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I agree, but honestly, given Kakashi's strengths, he is more valuable than some high kage tier in a group fight situation, so his placement varies depending on the situation at hand. And the manga consists mostly of group fights rather than 1v1s like in the CE


This is true; the problem still is Kamui cost. In most group fights Kakashi still won’t employ Kamui since its cost is too heavy. For example see the fight with 7 Swordsmen; they fought Kakashi division for over a day; when’s Kakashi if he went ham with Kamui could have caused their defeat earlier.

So basically Kakashi is worth more the Low-Kage if he’s in a group and in a mindset to go ham with Kamui like he did against Obito and Madara; but that’s not a likely scenario to happen often and if Kakashi does go ham like that it’s a one time thing cause he’ll go blind afterwards like he wasn’t going blind at the end of going ham against Madara / Obito. So to me it’s more of a situational one time thing just like Gai pulling the 8th Gate; though that is even more situational


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Good effort, but I don’t really see a point. Kakashi is a solid Ninja but his feats/ portrayal atleast during Naruto places him at the Top of Low-Kage with a good amount of potential in team situations allowing him to use Kamui and his intelligence more effectively in a group. So if your saying he is can beat most Low-Kage and is an excellent Ninja I agree; but he isn’t on the level of any high Kage due to his over reliance on Kamui to compete.



Thanks! 

Let me get your view on something. No intel, how many high kage would End-War (not gods) Kakashi Kamui take out if used at start of match? Who would it, in your view, not take out?


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is true; the problem still is Kamui cost. In most group fights Kakashi still won’t employ Kamui since its cost is too heavy. For example see the fight with 7 Swordsmen; they fought Kakashi division for over a day; when’s Kakashi if he went ham with Kamui could have caused their defeat earlier.
> 
> So basically Kakashi is worth more the Low-Kage if he’s in a group and in a mindset to go ham with Kamui like he did against Obito and Madara; but that’s not a likely scenario to happen often and if Kakashi does go ham like that it’s a one time thing cause he’ll go blind afterwards like he wasn’t going blind at the end of going ham against Madara / Obito. So to me it’s more of a situational one time thing just like Gai pulling the 8th Gate; though that is even more situational



Kakashi use of Kamui is very odd in the manga, and many times is faced with quite literal PIS. Here are some examples;


Against Deidara he only used it because his opponent was in the air
But against Kakuzu, who his team was losing against, he doesn't opt for it (later states that he almost had to however)
When he see's who he thought was Itachi (knowing how dangerous Itachi is) he still doesnt go for a Kamui
Against Pain (Deva), who he knows beat Jiraiya, again does not opt for Kamui until much later and not even as an attack
Against Sasuke, he only used Kamui because he had no other option 

Then in the war, he never opts for it until facing Obito seeing it was his only source of attack are aid in that fight
However, when Kakashi does use Kamui (best examples who be against Rinne Obito), he was able to pin point every shot, and used Kamui multiple times during the same period he's been up for a full day fighting. The only time he had trouble with Kamui (chakra wise) was with very large targets like the 5 TBBs and maybe a few other instances before receiving a chakra boost. Kamui is not a one time use jutsu.

But this just lets us know, that if Kakashi is in a group setting, his Kamui is not going to miss (WA version) on most mid kage and even high kage characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Will keep it short.
> Respect the reduced lewdness - good job


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## Ishmael (Mar 5, 2019)

People really got kakashi out here in low kage lmaoo


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Asura shown as vulnerable and cracked ( top-left) all over as he's machine-like; strike was from a lower momentum attack (compare:  top,  bottom). Very likely Kakashi would've sliced if previous hit.



No it isn't likely that he would've sliced Asura, you just want him to be able to so you can white knight him some more. Kakashi performed the same movement when he used Raikiri and missed on Asura as well as the one where he did hit Asura. He jumped with both and swung Raikiri and when he landed Raikiri he failed to slice through him. Your opinion that he would've sliced through him is just that, an opinion and an unsupported one at that.




> Already acknowledged, but Kakashi outplayed him too. What's important are feats. Kakashi was shown to be stronger, faster and smarter. Kakashi surprised plenty, eventually leaving him needing to feel absolutely safe, formed a plan that would have been the end of Deva if not for Asura, plus outplayed him at needle point.



You need to learn to foucs. I'm only taking about their first exchange and during said exchange Kakashi did not outplay Deva path, he got outplayed.



> Correct. Still, Kakashi has been a fond user of the Earth style so it's already implied and shown he's got good affinity with it - he is adept with Earth style.



Here's the thing. Who the hell cares? What does Kakashi being adept with Doton mean to the situation? The guy used a earth wall. It's not that impressive and you're trying to make it seem like it's some top tier feat. 




> So Deva can dodge Lightning Blade at point-blank but can't attack a vital spot? Could be because he's slow, then, as we both seem to have implied, or maybe there was a lag time like ST.



Do you have proof that he can't attack a vital spot if he wanted to? Deva never tried to land a hit on a vital spot, he aimed for the shoulder.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 5, 2019)

Bonly said:


> No it isn't likely that he would've sliced Asura, you just want him to be able to so you can white knight him some more. Kakashi performed the same movement when he used Raikiri and missed on Asura as well as the one where he did hit Asura. He jumped with both and swung Raikiri and when he landed Raikiri he failed to slice through him. Your opinion that he would've sliced through him is just that, an opinion and an unsupported one at that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He would have sliced him. Check the manga page right after 423.10. You can see his hand is a little outstretched, plus it's implied as he's trying to reach Deva in the page just after. Plus, that one had the force of Deva to push back against, distributing the force less on Asura. I'm sure that physics is quite easy to understand. 

Deva is a cold blooded killer or at least was doing that. No reason to cause "pain" to Kakashi as doesn't really accomplish anything. Nevertheless, if he wanted to weaken the threat, pretty sure he could have stabbed a little harder rather than risk it - Nagato isn't stupid. 

If you think Kakashi outplayed Deva in the first exchange, that's true, only because of the Rinnegan (very unimpressive). Still, Kakashi's feats were much more impressive, and overlooked, than Deva's even during that short exchange.


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> He would have sliced him.



No he wouldn't have no matter how much you wish Kakashi could.



> Deva is a cold blooded killer or at least was doing that. No reason to cause "pain" to Kakashi as doesn't really accomplish anything. Nevertheless, if he wanted to weaken the threat, pretty sure he could have stabbed a little harder rather than risk it - Nagato isn't stupid.



That's not a good enough excuse to suggest he couldn't have hit a vital area. We see Deva land a clean blow on Kakashi before Kakashi started to move and use Raikiri. Your opinion that he can't hit a vital spot isn't supported.



> If you think Deva outplayed Kakashi in the first exchange, that's true, only because of the Rinnegan (very unimpressive). Still, Kakashi's feats were much more impressive, and overlooked, than Deva's even during that short exchange.



Nobody cares if you think the Rinnegan was unimpressive but I'm glad you stopped wanking Kakashi for 2 seconds to admit he got outplayed in that exchange.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 6, 2019)

Bonly said:


> No he wouldn't have no matter how much you wish Kakashi could.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you agree that the force was somewhat distributed to Deva instead of entirely on Asura? Yes or No.

Do you agree that Kakashi's initial Lightning Blade was a little more bent and after one was a little outstretched? Yes or No.

It's not that Deva can't land a vital blow, lol, I never said that. Let's not twist words here. It's that he didn't, despite his advantageous conditions, which therefore highlight his flaws: Deva had elevation advantage, Kakashi had just finished a jutsu, Deva has a Rinnegan... Thus, do you agree that Deva probably should have landed a better hit but wasn't skilled enough or do you think it's just because he didn't need to and underestimated Kakashi?


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 6, 2019)

> Sees folks from the "good ol days" bring up Izaya



IzayaOrihara was a joke

Its the same concept as this...



Omote said:


> I'm convinced if you type long enough essays here people automatically give you free likes
> 
> I remember when 6 people liked Turrin's SM Kabuto is stronger than Hashirama..six!
> 
> Good thread, but most of this is pretty basic information and enforces Kakashi's place as a mid-tier in the Naruto universe amongst people like the Gokage, Sannin, the lower tier Akatsuki members(besides Hidan ofc) etc


TLDRs filled with at best basic information thats blown out of proportion.

I dont deny the dude gave a shit load of effort, but he was still flat out wrong 100% of the time with where and why he focucsed that effort.

Filling in the blanks with egregious amounts of headcanon...And people just "rep and like for the effort" mostly or are impressed with the amount of time you put into a post.

Doesnt make ANYTHING in it factual 

IzayaOrihara wrote 50,000 word essays on why he thinks Orochimaru beats Itachi...But i can do, , ,  and bam thats 50,000 words debunked right there. Took me all of 3 minutes to get those scans. And Izaya probably wasted hours of his life arguing nonsense.

Thats what happens when you read the manga and dont use headcanon to wank your favorite characters.

I love Kakashi I love Gaara, I love Nagato and I love Neji...But I can also do this amazing there where I acknowledge that they are trash when it comes to fighting compared to other names they are often paired against.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 6, 2019)

In case this hasn't been covered in the opening post yet I can add some more hype and feats:

- Pretty much every famous ninja knows and respects the name hatake kakashi

-Kakashi's bloodline itself is infamous

-Madara praised his Kamui feat against the gedo statue. Saying that "it seems there are some skilled eyes on the enemy side as well" after reverse summoning the statue and seeing the damage done by kamui

-Itachi and Kakashi were evenly matched in both fights until the mangekyo sharingan comes out.

-Deidara says Kakashi's dojutsu are on par with Itachi (dunno if that is filler to be fair)

Reactions: Like 2


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## Santoryu (Mar 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> > Sees folks from the "good ol days" bring up Izaya
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The entirety of the manga is "basic information" which we make subjective judgments about so that argument isn't even a detriment


also, you put Hebi Sasuke on the same level as MS Kakashi.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 6, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> The entirety of the manga is "basic information" which we make subjective judgments about


Nothing subjective about Itachi > Oro being stated by literally everyone who ever makes a comparison between the 2 characters in the manga.

Oro himself included. 


Santoryu said:


> that argument isn't even a detriment


Sure it is


Santoryu said:


> also, you put Hebi Sasuke on the same level as MS Kakashi.


So does literally everyone 

Cuz thats where he goes

Hebi Sasuke is blatantly stronger than Kakashi in every way

Its not even a discussion without MS honestly


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## Santoryu (Mar 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nothing subjective about Itachi > Oro being stated by literally everyone who ever makes a comparison between the 2 characters in the manga.



Not arguing against that case in particular, but so  many other arguments people make in the BD.
If it wasn't subjective, there wouldn't be a need for the BD in the first place.




WorldsStrongest said:


> So does literally everyone



Not true. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz thats where he goes
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is blatantly stronger than Kakashi in every way
> 
> Its not even a discussion without MS honestly



And this what I mean by subjectivity.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 6, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Not arguing against that case in particular


Kay


Santoryu said:


> so many other arguments people make in the BD.
> If it wasn't subjective, there wouldn't be a need for the BD in the first place.


Sure

I don’t disagree and Ive said the same or similar many times

But most things, like general placement, are entirely obvious 


Santoryu said:


> Not true.


Yeah its true

Ive seen literally 3 people who think Kakashi BEATS Sasuke and youre one of them. If people dont think Hebi wins, they still think its a fight.


Santoryu said:


> this what I mean by subjectivity.


There’s nothing subjective about Sasukes blatantly superior feats in many areas, and the fact he has the CS and Kakashi has no amps.

As well as several other factors like stamina and summons.


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## Santoryu (Mar 6, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kay
> 
> 
> *Ive seen literally 3 people* who think Kakashi BEATS Sasuke and youre one of them. If people dont think Hebi wins, they still think its a fight.
> ...





5 posters in this thread alone


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