# Kishi being subtle as a sledgehammer with Naruto's symbolism.



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Wow. 

Naruto's savior complex has reached a new level of weirdness, egotism, and absurdity that decided to completely dismiss whatever meaningful messages Part I had.

Discuss?


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## navy (Jun 22, 2011)

I like it.


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

ahahaha what a good laugh you gave me .

He * said his father was the savior * and as his father died to pass on that task to him he'll not fail , what's the problem in understanding that ? Is it too dificult ?


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm not the biggest Christian, but I can see the almost pathetic symbolism behind it, especially with the "suns" behind that look almost a mockery of the Christian halos.

I mean I'm sure there's something Japanese behind it, but I'm just more irked by this constant "savior" talk.

He wants to forge his OWN destiny in Part I, then he buys into this prophecy in Part II.  Honestly, consistency in story is my big sticking point and Kishi has just shit the bed on this one.


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## Raidoton (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> I think even the Catholic Church couldn't help but laugh at this one...if not be offended by it as well.


Nah, they will love it, as soon as Jesus (Naruto) fights Harry Potter (Kabuto).


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> ahahaha what a good laugh you gave me .
> 
> He * said his father was the savior * and as his father died to pass on that task to him he'll not fail , what's the problem in understanding that ? Is it too dificult ?



And in case you hadn't noticed, he's assumed the role and everyone else has pretty much bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Sorry but pathetic theme is pathetic.


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## vagnard (Jun 22, 2011)

Kishimoto is THAT corny


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## Selva (Jun 22, 2011)

Kishi and subtlety don't belong in the same sentence 
yup I have to agree. This shit was stupid and full of cheeeese.


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

What can they do ? They can't stop him , this is Naruto part I he * does whatever he wants  * , Raikage couldn't stop him so he decided to bet on him , what other choice did he have ? Continue and dying ?

Just because this was his "destiny" or not he is * choosing to do it freely * ..


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## Addy (Jun 22, 2011)

it's kishi.

he is so subtle with his comparisons to religious figures 


SageRafa said:


> What can they do ? They can't stop him , this is Naruto part I he * does whatever he wants  * , Raikage couldn't stop him so he decided to bet on him , what other choice did he have ? Continue and dying ?
> 
> Just because this was his "destiny" or not he is * choosing to do it freely * ..



sure he is  

he didn't even resist the idea of being the prophecy kid. and since when naruto part 1 even believed in destiny?


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> What can they do ? They can't stop him , this is Naruto part I he * does whatever he wants  * , Raikage couldn't stop him so he decided to bet on him , what other choice did he have ? Continue and dying ?
> 
> Just because this was his "destiny" or not he is * choosing to do it freely * ..



Stop defending.  There's a difference between forging your own path without the foretelling of elders and then forging your own path buying into a prophecy hook, line, and sinker.


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## Sorin (Jun 22, 2011)

I must say that i don't like this portrayal of Naruto.not even one bit.And not because christians might be offeneded or something like that.I'm an atheist, i don't believe in religious things.it's because i don't like the fact that Naruto thinks he is the saviour as well.One thing is having confidence in himself and another thing too say that shit just because the mother,the father or jiraya said it.

In part 1 he was just like..."yeah bitch so what if i'm weak,i'm gonna beat the shit out of you and in the end you'll like it".No prophecy bullshit.He was just confident in himself.

Meh,it's a manga.i'll manage.


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## mayumi (Jun 22, 2011)

they are rikudou and his wife, you got a problem? 

^naruto wasn't confident all the time in part1. he hated being a loser so he never gave up which is just the same naruto.

also kishi is a buddist or perhaps not even religious. how do you know what the sun behind them is anyway? isn't it just your western interpretation?


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## chakra-burned (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> I'm not the biggest Christian, but I can see the almost pathetic symbolism behind it, especially with the "suns" behind that look almost a mockery of the Christian halos.
> 
> I mean I'm sure there's something Japanese behind it, but I'm just more irked by this constant "savior" talk.
> 
> He wants to forge his OWN destiny in Part I, then he buys into this prophecy in Part II.  Honestly, consistency in story is my big sticking point and Kishi has just shit the bed on this one.



Christian-centric snobs 

Buddha had the sun behind him too.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> Christian-centric snobs
> 
> Buddha had the sun behind him too.



U jelly we get more attention.


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

Stop defending ? I have my opinion and I do whatever I want , I'm like Naruto you if don't like it try to disprove me 

At the end of the manga * if * Naruto fails you'll be right , if Naruto wins and saves everyone you'll be wrong , nothing more nothing less .


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## auem (Jun 22, 2011)

kishi may seriously thinks that naruto is relevant to modern world..
talk about clueless....


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Stop defending ? I have my opinion and I do whatever I want , I'm like Naruto you if don't like it try to disprove me
> 
> At the end of the manga * if * Naruto fails you'll be right , if Naruto wins and saves everyone you'll be wrong , nothing more nothing less .



How will I be wrong?  I'm just saying the "savior" mantra is getting pathetic.

Of course he'll win.  It's a predictable shonen manga.


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

That's my point , you're wrong .

It would be pathetic if he fails


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## Agony (Jun 22, 2011)

as always,kishi has always used religion as a part of his story.nothing surprising at all.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> That's my point , you're wrong .
> 
> It would be pathetic if he fails



That's informative. 

You're again not getting my point.  He was supposed to be this guy who'd do his own thing and fight the power.

Instead he bought into a storyline that has his fate already cast.  It shat on Part I.  He's already a rather inconsiderate protagonist given how I don't see much thanks from him for the villagers Darkuto or not.


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## mayumi (Jun 22, 2011)

if you think about it, isn't it like the japanese flag or something? the whole flag that looks like a sun. land of the rising sun.


there can be many interpretaions of the sun moment.


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## Inuhanyou (Jun 22, 2011)

that's bad writing for you  its as transparent as sasuke coming back to konoha with no repercussions.

Naruto has fully shed his part 1 independence and "fuck the world i'll beat em all anyway" perspective, and has become a tool to spread the 'word' of his own greatness apparently.


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## chakra-burned (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> U jelly we get more attention.



Only when in an English forum


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## Raidoton (Jun 22, 2011)

If Christians get offended by this, than they get a step closer to Islam... 

Anyway, I didn't like it as soon as the big old frog talked about destiny... So I don't care anymore about that!


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

chakra-burned said:


> Only when in an Eng-


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Stop defending.  There's a difference between forging your own path without the foretelling of elders and then forging your own path buying into a prophecy hook, line, and sinker.



Actually this page:
[sp][/sp]
Is one of the better takes on it, as it seems to have elements of part 1 Naruto/what not.

As for the sun thing, Christianity hardly has a trademark on it, also note that Catholics tend to be the only ones to glorify Mary to such an extent.

Also I doubt that Kishi would be looking for such symbolism, I was under the impression he couldn't even speak English.


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## chakra-burned (Jun 22, 2011)

You mad?


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

Yes he's doing his own thing *saving the world* , you guys don't get nothing ..

What was Jiraiya's wish ? To everyone to understand eachother and end the cycle of hatred , Jiraiya died and * Naruto took on his values and ideals wanting to change the world * ..

What was Nagato's wish ? To bring peace to the world through Pain too end the cycle of hatred through fear . Nagato turned into something he didn't want and Naruto * learned with his fellow student what war/pain can do and once more he swore to bring peace .

What was Minato's wish ? He was the child of the prophecy/saviour but he let himself die just to make a gamble and bet everything into his son , Naruto  took even more the responsability of not failing just like he showed this chapter  ..

So Naruto's  growth  was showed during the whole Part II , you guys don't get it and start saying he's a Messiah , he's this , he's that .. He's just the same Part I Naruto but now he has people's  hope / dreams /wishs  counting on him , he can't fail ..*


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Yes he's doing his own thing *saving the world* , *you guys don't get nothing* ..
> 
> What was Jiraiya's wish ? To everyone to understand eachother and end the cycle of hatred , Jiraiya died and * Naruto took on his values and ideals wanting to change the world * ..
> 
> ...


*

Double negative FTL.

God damn it...we're not talking about fucking failure.  We're talking about the messianic complex itself that ruining his character.*


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## Edward Newgate (Jun 22, 2011)

Mr Horrible said:


> Also I doubt that Kishi would be looking for such symbolism, I was under the impression he couldn't even speak English.


He needn't need to know English to read about Christianity on wikipedia. Plus, there're Christians in Japan, too.


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

What ? Can you read ?

He doesn't have a messiah comples * he just inherited his father/student/master wishs/ideals* , whatever I'll not debate with someon that doesn't even answer .


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## Rabbit and Rose (Jun 22, 2011)

LOL a sledge hammer, I think its just to make the audience not believe in such ridiculous things in rl.
maybe only in your children though


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## Addy (Jun 22, 2011)

Agony said:


> as always,kishi has always used religion as a part of his story.nothing surprising at all.



im surprised someone just made a thread about it *just now* 

i mean, nagato's crucifixion should have been evident enough of that.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 22, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> He needn't need to know English to read about Christianity on wikipedia. Plus, there're Christians in Japan, too.



Seems like an odd thing to do, particularly when it's only about a sun framing someone's head. Christianity hardly has a trademark on sun imagery. So while sure, he's playing up the messiah angle apparently, that doesn't mean he's using Christianity to do so.

Particularly when it's two people, so the symbolism isn't that strong in the first place.

Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Christianity, I just find it unlikely that he's going for a Naruto-Jesus parallel.


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## LordSpark (Jun 22, 2011)

Technically, Kishi would be going for more of a Buddha-like figure than Christ-like, due to how steeped naruto is steeped in Buddhism and Shintoism as opposed to Christianity.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> What ? Can you read ?
> 
> He doesn't have a messiah comples * he just inherited his father/student/master wishs/ideals* , whatever I'll not debate with someon that doesn't even answer .



Wow you're missing a lot of his dialogue then.

"I'M GOING TO SAVE THE NINJA WORLD AND BRING PEACE!  I'M GONNA SAVE MY MANCRUSH SASUKE AND WE'LL BE A HAPPY TEAM 7 ALL OVER AGAIN EVEN IF IT NEVER REALLY EXISTED!  FUCK YOU KYUUBI!"

That was before he even spoke of inheritance.


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Wow you're missing a lot of his dialogue then.
> 
> "I'M GOING TO SAVE THE NINJA WORLD AND BRING PEACE!  I'M GONNA SAVE MY MANCRUSH SASUKE AND WE'LL BE A HAPPY TEAM 7 ALL OVER AGAIN EVEN IF IT NEVER REALLY EXISTED!  FUCK YOU KYUUBI!"
> 
> That was before he even spoke of inheritance.



Jiraiya's * was already dead , Jiraiya's death changed the whole character of Naruto he grew up and inherited his will to change the world * , get it ? Was it before  ? I guess no .

Even if it never existed ? Like what when Sasuke put up his ass on the line for Naruto against Haku ? Or when they did the most splendid team-work feat we ever saw in the manga against Zabuza ? Or when Naruto saved Sasuke against Oro ? They were a team , Sasuke said himself Naruto was the closest he had to a best friend he admited ..

I'm not saying he's right in wanting to bring him back , but I can understand it .. If you don't like it simply don't read the manga .


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Wow you're missing a lot of his dialogue then.
> 
> "I'M GOING TO SAVE THE NINJA WORLD AND BRING PEACE!  I'M GONNA SAVE MY MANCRUSH SASUKE AND WE'LL BE A HAPPY TEAM 7 ALL OVER AGAIN EVEN IF IT NEVER REALLY EXISTED!  FUCK YOU KYUUBI!"
> 
> That was before he even spoke of inheritance.



Didn't Naruto inherit that first goal from Jiraiya?

As far as saving Sasuke goes, I wouldn't say that alone constitutes a messiah complex.

Also if you note in this chapter Naruto seemingly couldn't care less what others thought, he has specific goals (of which, peace wasn't mentioned, which made it tolerable for me).


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## SageRafa (Jun 22, 2011)

^^ Thank you , it's not that hard to get .


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## bearzerger (Jun 22, 2011)

ahh I love ignorant people. If people would just spend 10 seconds to use wikipedia they wouldn't post so many idiotic things which amuse me to no end. 10 seconds on wiki would have been enough to find out that the halo isn't a christian invention. That it appears in many religions all over the world and actually predates christianity.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Mr Horrible said:


> Didn't Naruto inherit that first goal from Jiraiya?
> 
> As far as saving Sasuke goes, I wouldn't say that alone constitutes a messiah complex.
> 
> Also if you note in this chapter Naruto seemingly couldn't care less what others thought, he has specific goals (of which, peace wasn't mentioned, which made it tolerable for me).



I thought it was a combination of him, Iruka, and Yondy.  Regardless of which, I just believe it's been building this ego of Naruto's which destroyed the Part I characterization I thoroughly enjoyed.  The peace mantra I believe was from previous chapters.  I think it's more the imagery this time that got my goat.


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## SunnyMoonstone (Jun 22, 2011)

*Looks at title* And vampires have fangs...what else is new.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> ahh I love ignorant people. If people would just spend 10 seconds to use wikipedia they wouldn't post so many idiotic things which amuse me to no end. 10 seconds on wiki would have been enough to find out that the halo isn't a christian invention. That it appears in many religions all over the world and actually predates christianity.



Like I give a shit.

That's simply how I saw it.  Others are free to interpret the halo as is.


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## gabzilla (Jun 22, 2011)

Kishimoto is as subtle as an axe to the face. News at eleven.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

gabzilla said:


> Kishimoto is as subtle as an axe to the face. News at eleven.



I prefer sledgehammer gabzy.  It's far messier and a lot more blunt.

Don't kill my title mojo. 

Also, I wouldn't normally post like this, but those images.  That pushed me.


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## Dark Red Z (Jun 22, 2011)

I didn't pay it much mind before, but for Naruto to actually use the noun Savior, as opposed to "I just want this war to end, I don't care what people call me" that I expected is....too much.


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## Mr Horrible (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> I thought it was a combination of him, Iruka, and Yondy.  Regardless of which, I just believe it's been building this ego of Naruto's which destroyed the Part I characterization I thoroughly enjoyed.  The peace mantra I believe was from previous chapters.  I think it's more the imagery this time that got my goat.



Eh, the catalyst seemed to be Jiraiya imo, particularly seeing as it's likely Minato got a lot of his desire for peace from Jiraiya as well.

I was just pointing out that this chapter actually did have some of that 'I don't give a shit what you think' Naruto from part 1.

As for me, the imagery didn't strike me as a christian allusion, maybe coincidence? I'm certainly not used to seeing two figures anyway.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 22, 2011)

It was amusing more than anything else but it didn't really show us anything we didn't already know. Naruto has consistently been one of the cheesiest/corniest mangas in history, so nothing new there.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Mr Horrible said:


> Eh, the catalyst seemed to be Jiraiya imo, particularly seeing as it's likely Minato got a lot of his desire for peace from Jiraiya as well.
> 
> I was just pointing out that this chapter actually did have some of that 'I don't give a shit what you think' Naruto from part 1.
> 
> As for me, the imagery didn't strike me as a christian allusion, maybe coincidence? I'm certainly not used to seeing two figures anyway.



The Christian allusion was simply how I saw it...not the real catalyst for my offense but just the imagery itself painting him as this holy savior regardless of what faith influenced it.  It bothered me greatly.  It bothered me because it's glorifying this kid to inflate his ego further because now he's a child of prophecy.  Paul Muad'dib didn't wank it this much.


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## ch1p (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Naruto's savior complex has reached a new level of weirdness, egotism, and absurdity that decided to completely dismiss whatever meaningful messages Part I had.



I agree with this. I kept reading Naruto because it seemed to be a great story about paving your own way to greatness and never giving up despite the odds, of hard work, brotherhood and teamwork, and now wtf there are profecies, destinies and chosen ones, which undermine everything I liked it for.


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## Crona (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm kind of sick of all this savior/child of prophecy stuff involving Naruto too. I think they should have just stuck to that Naruto had inherited the will of fire as opposed to all this other stuff.


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## Thor (Jun 22, 2011)

What Naruto said to Neji in part 1 was false.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Thor said:


> What Naruto said to Neji in part 1 was false.



Hyuga trollin'. 

Neji was right all along.


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## santanico (Jun 22, 2011)

haha wth kishi?


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Starr said:


> haha wth kishi?



It's a mixture really.

It's like , then :S, then , then , then , and then back to .


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## santanico (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm no practicing catholic, but seriously...  what.the.hell.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 22, 2011)

This whole chapter aside from the final spread was vomit-worthy


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Starr said:


> I'm no practicing catholic, but seriously...  what.the.hell.



Neither am I, but as I said before, the symbolism is right there and CAN be translated as such.  Of course be careful, we could be ignorant for assuming halos to be Christian in design.

Yes I know Kishi being subtle is "old news."  But shit...this was just a harder slap to the face.


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## Yakkai (Jun 22, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> This whole chapter aside from the final spread was vomit-worthy



I'm more of a Naruto fan than a Sasuke fan and I find myself in total agreement with this.


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## Specter Von Baren (Jun 22, 2011)

I really just hung my head and sighed heavily when I saw that page.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

It was terrible. God, why Raikage, why!?


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It was terrible. God, why Raikage, why!?



The last line of defense has fallen.

God/Allah/Buddha/Vishnu/Zoroaster help us all.


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## Thor (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> The last line of defense has fallen.
> 
> *Minato* help us all.



Fixed


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## Raidoton (Jun 22, 2011)

Hidan said:
			
		

> The last line of defense has fallen.
> 
> *Jashin help us all.*


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

Narutoism

Uzumakianity


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## Addy (Jun 22, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> This whole chapter aside from the final spread was vomit-worthy



two suns? really 

and i could swear that naruto was gonna vomit sunshine at one point


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## Kuromaku (Jun 22, 2011)

Oh God, I can't tell whether I should be laughing or crying at how pathetic this is (the plot and character, not the thread).


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## Kind of a big deal (Jun 22, 2011)

I can't believe it, but I am starting to dislike Sasuke less at this point. Both of these guys are equally egocentric. I know it won't happen even though they said it would, but it could be a blessing for the story if they take each other out somehow.

Someone like Shikamaru should step up and be the new main character.


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## Raidoton (Jun 22, 2011)

Kuromaku said:


> Oh God, I can't tell whether I should be laughing or crying at how pathetic this is (the plot and character, not the thread).


At least it's not as bad as the bible... yet


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I can't believe it, but I am starting to dislike Sasuke less at this point. Both of these guys are equally egocentric. I know it won't happen even though they said it would, but it could be a blessing for the story if they take each other out somehow.
> 
> Someone like Shikamaru should step up and be the new main character.



That be Kishi's darling already.


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## Kuromaku (Jun 22, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> At least it's not as bad as the bible... yet



At least the Bible has some hardcore ultraviolence, a vengeful God, and bears attacking annoying teenagers successfully.  All we got here makes the New Testament seem Old Testament in comparison.


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## mareboro (Jun 22, 2011)

auem said:


> kishi may seriously thinks that naruto is relevant to modern world..
> talk about clueless....



hehe, ho does not need to think anything - he makes shit up and gets money for it. You either cant afford to read his work but criticize how irrelevant he is or you pay him for reading something you dislike.. Kishi wins


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## Specter Von Baren (Jun 22, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> At least it's not as bad as the bible... yet





Kuromaku said:


> At least the Bible has some hardcore ultraviolence, a vengeful God, and bears attacking annoying teenagers successfully.  All we got here makes the New Testament seem Old Testament in comparison.



C'mon guys, can we please not bring this shit into the forums?


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## Kankurette (Jun 22, 2011)

Normally he uses Buddhist or Shinto symbolism, if he's going to draw on religious mythos. I don't think he's ever used Christian symbolism before.

I miss the pre-prophecy days.


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Specter Von Baren said:


> C'mon guys, can we please not bring this shit into the forums?



I don't think that's what they're doing...but it's more just a poke at this current theme of Nardo.



Kankurette said:


> Normally he uses Buddhist or Shinto symbolism, if he's going to draw on religious mythos. I don't think he's ever used Christian symbolism before.
> 
> I miss the pre-prophecy days.



I say Christian just as I sees it...but you're likely right with the Eastern thought.

And yes I do too...this is getting ad nauseum.


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## lynxie (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> I thought it was a combination of him, Iruka, and Yondy.  Regardless of which, I just believe it's been building this ego of Naruto's which destroyed the Part I characterization I thoroughly enjoyed.  The peace mantra I believe was from previous chapters.  I think it's more the imagery this time that got my goat.



If Naruto was The same as in part 1 then he didn't grow at all.

He Needs to believe in his destiny, many people he respects have put their faith in him. 

I do believe sooner or later he will doubt this destiny. I think neji will encourage Naruto, since Naruto helped neji with his destiny.

I know people hate this.

But I love it. 
Let this story just be cheesy. I read enough seinen.
I don't want Naruto to be a depressing manga.

I want my rainbows and i want my team 7 be together again. I want sasukes brains return and see some team work between him and Naruto damn it!

People really love to complain about everything.

I think people have to realise this is just a little story aiming for a younger audiance. 
People expect more of it then it is meant to be...


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

lynxie said:


> If Naruto was The same as in part 1 then he didn't grow at all.
> 
> He Needs to believe in his destiny, many people he respects have put their faith in him.
> 
> ...



Then enjoy never evolving in what is actually good writing.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 22, 2011)

HERE

For our sins.


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## Sesha (Jun 22, 2011)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> This whole chapter aside from the final spread was vomit-worthy



The final spread was the erupting point of a volcano of bile and vomit. It was the punch line of a ponderously long joke consisting of fart and penis jokes.


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## Kuromaku (Jun 22, 2011)

Sesha said:


> The final spread was the erupting point of a volcano of bile and vomit. It was the punch line of a ponderously long joke consisting of fart and penis jokes.



What do you call it?

The Aristocrats!


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## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Kuromaku said:


> What do you call it?
> 
> The Aristocrats!



Oh ho c wut u did thar.


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## mayumi (Jun 22, 2011)

well naruto is most definetely not getting together with hinata, sakura or sasuke for that matter after the pedestal he placed his father and mother on. they all better be on their level or else GTFO


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 22, 2011)

Narutoism is real folks. He manage to make Zabuza, Haku, Tsunade, Gaara, Neji, Konan, Nagato, Raikage, Killerbee, and so many others into devoted followers. Even the most evil being in this manga the Kyuubi will be converted to Narutoism. Now bow down and pray to your savior.


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## Jin-E (Jun 22, 2011)

I know the "destined child" stuff began earlier, but it was only when Konan raved about him being the "light", as if she was a deluded cult member, that i found it outright disturbing.

So......in 500 chapters he has transformed from a hardworking, never give up kinda guy who shat on the notion of destiny into a divine copy of David Koresh. 

Lol Kishi.


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## Kuromaku (Jun 22, 2011)

Lelouch71 said:


> Narutoism is real folks. He manage to make Zabuza, Haku, Tsunade, Gaara, Neji, Konan, Nagato, Raikage, Killerbee, and so many others into devoted followers. Even the most evil being in this manga the Kyuubi will be converted to Narutoism. Now bow down and pray to your savior.



Never shall I follow a false prophet! 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVwCYJj4THQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## seastone (Jun 22, 2011)

Personally I didn't notice it. 

Though Kishi is a bit heavy on the whole "savior" things 



Lelouch71 said:


> Narutoism is real folks. He manage to make Zabuza, Haku, Tsunade, Gaara, Neji, Konan, Nagato, Raikage, Killerbee, and so many others into devoted followers. Even the most evil being in this manga the Kyuubi will be converted to Narutoism. Now bow down and pray to your savior.



Hey, don't mock Narutoism and praying to him  

He lends aid to those who call for his aid. Remember Sakura going on her knees praying for Naruto to come? Not only did he stop the villain he also made him repent his deaths and brought back everyone who died.

All hail Naruto for he is the world's savior


----------



## cloudsymph (Jun 22, 2011)

lol yeah, kishi


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jun 22, 2011)

Why is everyone jumping on OP over the religion comment? You can read whatever religion into it you want. The result is the same. 

His egotism in this chapter was undeniably disgusting.

There's absolutely no reason for this hackneyed garbage. What's so wrong with having a hero who doesn't have a savior complex?



SageRafa said:


> That's my point , you're wrong .
> 
> It would be pathetic if he fails



Au contraire.

It would be kind of funny.



lynxie said:


> I think people have to realise this is just a little story aiming for a younger audiance.
> People expect more of it then it is meant to be...



Sasuke's story has not followed a typical shounen bent, so it wasn't naive of many of us to believe that the manga may take a darker turn as it gained momentum. Plenty of manga do as they get deeper into the story, after all. Sure we may not have believed that Naruto would die, but I don't think many of us were expecting things to get this absurd a couple of years ago.


----------



## Angevelinka (Jun 22, 2011)

You know, there's thin line between confidence and arrogance and I'm starting to think that Naruto is trying very hard to cross it.

What irks me, is that Kishomoto had been pointing non stop how future generations are supposed to surpass old and so on, and yet, the main character seems to do completely reverse: a child who is believing so much in his parents he is ready to sanctify them. As a future Hokage, main hero and even prophet, it should be a little... different.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

If I were optimistic, I could say this could open a subplot where Naruto now believing himself to be savior becomes susceptible to corruption, over time whatever he wants, even horrible things based on his title as virtually Ninja Jesus. He has his large cult of loyal followers who do what he says and goes with whatever he does despite their misgivings, because they have come to believe in him. He fulfills his prophecy, but it creates a world of oppression and dominance ruled by fear over his power!!!!


----------



## CrazyAries (Jun 22, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> If I were optimistic, I could say this could open a subplot where Naruto now believing himself to be savior becomes susceptible to corruption, over time whatever he wants, even horrible things based on his title as virtually Ninja Jesus. He has his large cult of loyal followers who do what he says and goes with whatever he does despite their misgivings, because they have come to believe in him. He fulfills his prophecy, but it creates a world of oppression and dominance ruled by fear over his power!!!!



That could be an interesting idea for fanfiction .

In this story, though, we know that if Naruto came close to corruption, that issue would be resolved in one chapter.


----------



## Addy (Jun 22, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> a cleaning error
> 
> For our sins.



he was not crucified right


----------



## Naruts (Jun 22, 2011)

People getting offended by religious dogma and shit.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

Naruts said:


> People getting offended by religious dogma and shit.



Regardless, it was corny as hell.


----------



## gabzilla (Jun 22, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> I can't believe it, but I am starting to dislike Sasuke less at this point. Both of these guys are equally egocentric. I know it won't happen even though they said it would, but it could be a blessing for the story if they take each other out somehow.
> 
> *Someone like Shikamaru should step up and be the new main character.*



No, thank you


----------



## C-Moon (Jun 22, 2011)

I wish I had more hands, so I could give a thumbs down for every page in this chapter


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

gabzilla said:


> No, thank you



Fan of Shika here...and surprisingly enough I have to agree.

He doesn't possess the personality to really be a CENTRAL protagonist, not that Naruto or Sasuke have anything outstanding over him.

He also got his moment in the sun and established himself as the smartypants of Konoha.  We'll leave it at that.


----------



## C-Moon (Jun 22, 2011)

Kishi, never try your hand at anything resembling Christian imagery. It becomes corny and slightly offensive.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jun 22, 2011)

yeah.. it was very easy to deduce.. i honestly don't like savior naruto.. i want dropout naruto kicking some madara butt with some wacky strategy..


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> Kishi, never try your hand at anything resembling Christian imagery. It becomes corny and slightly offensive.



Yes.  I interpreted this as such, as well, even if it wasn't actually Christian themed.

My whole beef was the big illustration of the "savior" and his typical Talk no Jutsu that somehow hypnotizes people...rational people.


----------



## Zarzamora-no-kimi (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm not religious (thank god... ok, that was lame) so I really didn't see the connection, nor do I really care, but reading some posts I would understand why some people are irked by it. But really, the whole Naruto thing being the Prophecy child is getting out of hand. It's been what? One year since that and people are still whining about it? You don't make Naruto look pathetic, but yourselves O.o

Ever since part I, he has a goal to achieve, hell, even before all that prophecy crap was out in the sun, he already had goals and things to accomplish. I don't see how changing just for the sake of going against destiny will makes a difference. 

It's pretty simple really, *destiny is the one agreeing with him, not Naruto agreeing with destiny*. Do you think he changed all his goals just because he has to? He has been having things to do (the SAME THINGS) ever since part one. How can some people say he bought it, hook, line and sinker (yes, you know who I mean) when he hasn't changed paths at all? Just because there is a prophecy involved doesn't mean he will go against what he believes in for the sake of being an independent mediocre punk.

Don't let your hatred make you stupid.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

Another guy comes in and tries to go on about how people critical don't understand. The prophecy was made before Naruto's birth and he is fulfilling it. The prophecy has compromised everything, because it makes Naruto and his path ultimately come off as a tool of fate. He was MEANT to do this or he was MEANT to achieve that. It was destiny...It comes off as a blatant attempt to shoehorn Naruto back into relevancy in his own story when he could've, when he should have, been developed much earlier on. People are sick of it because it's an absolute mess and makes a mess of the story and characters, Naruto included.


----------



## ch1p (Jun 22, 2011)

lynxie said:


> I don't want Naruto to be a depressing manga.
> 
> I want my rainbows and i want my team 7 be together again. I want sasukes brains return and see some team work between him and Naruto damn it!



I want an happy ending as well, but not like this. Part I and most of part II was not about destiny or proficies or chosen ones.

My hope is that this is building up for a deconstruction, but how likely is that?



Seto Kaiba said:


> If I were optimistic, I could say this could open a subplot where Naruto now believing himself to be savior becomes susceptible to corruption, over time whatever he wants, even horrible things based on his title as virtually Ninja Jesus. He has his large cult of loyal followers who do what he says and goes with whatever he does despite their misgivings, because they have come to believe in him. He fulfills his prophecy, but it creates a world of oppression and dominance ruled by fear over his power!!!!



I recall the days older people fanwanked to this in Harry Potter franchise, as Harry rised to be the next Dark Lord. Unfortunetly, the end was him corrupted and at his worse that's for sure, but the author and the universe praised him for it.


----------



## ajinko (Jun 22, 2011)

OH chosen one, only u can restore the balance between fire, ice and lightning. naruios egotism in this chapter is cringeworthy.


----------



## jameshawking (Jun 22, 2011)

Correction to a basic misunderstanding of this thread.


Naruto never had a problem with Destiny itself.

Her had a problem with "Destiny" being used t hold people back in his view

"You're destined to be a loser" like himself and Hinata, for example.  Whenever someone tried to say "my destiny is better than yours" he threw up the middle finger, frankly.  But his resistance to it was mostly defensive.

it was always along the lines f "if my destiny is to suck, then i'll change it."


This could all, frankly, be seen as Naruto _having_ changed his destiny from that of a loser to that of an almighty badass through hard work and training


----------



## HakuGaara (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm wondering if the earthquake turned Kishi religious


----------



## mayumi (Jun 22, 2011)

I would have preferred the word hero instead of saviour. That would go back to part 1 theme.


----------



## Angevelinka (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Yes.  I interpreted this as such, as well, even if it wasn't actually Christian themed.
> 
> My whole beef was the big illustration of the "savior" and his typical Talk no Jutsu that somehow hypnotizes people...rational people.



I didn't too at first...


...but now that I'm looking at it, Naruto has very visible HORNS when he is talking about his parents in this holy imagery.

I wonder what is that supposed to mean and if it's just coincidence.


----------



## HolyDemon (Jun 22, 2011)

Angevelinka said:


> I didn't too at first...
> 
> 
> ...but now that I'm looking at it, Naruto has very visible HORNS when he is talking about his parents in this holy imagery.
> ...



It's a premonition to a close future where Naruto would mutate his idealism into massacring everyone on the planet so they can believe in him and understand his faith in the afterworld. 

He's not the savior of humanity, he's the purger of mankind.


----------



## RoseWhirlpool (Jun 22, 2011)

The Catholic Church probably doesn't care about this story.


----------



## Raidoton (Jun 22, 2011)

HakuGaara said:


> I'm wondering if the earthquake turned Kishi religious


Because before the earthquake we didn't saw stuff like this in the manga, right?


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

RoseWhirlpool said:


> The Catholic Church probably doesn't care about this story.



That's what they want you to think...when not illogically protesting condoms. 

*is Catholic btw*


----------



## CrazyAries (Jun 22, 2011)

mayumi said:


> I would have preferred the word hero instead of saviour. That would go back to part 1 theme.


 
I agree that "Hero" would have been a much better term.  I also agree that it would have fit the Part 1 theme better, as that is how Yondaime wanted Naruto to be viewed.  However, we saw that in the context of Konohagakure, the village that Naruto someday wanted to lead as Hokage.  Now, his heroism has to affect the world at large.

----------------------

The main problem that I have is the jump in scale from Naruto's Part 1 goal to become Hokage to him being the Child of Destiny.  Like I said above, there was a drastic change in scale from A to B.  His role as the world's "Savior" makes the goal to be Hokage look small and hollow.  He could have actually built upon the first goal, since he wanted that power and respect for the wrong reasons.

What makes this all worse is the lip service paid to Naruto by his elders.  We already know that he has the power to change the hearts and minds of many of the people he meets.  We already know that he thus serves as a beacon of hope in a corrupt world.  However, we are being beat over the head with the message.  Also, the the superlatives are used to make Naruto relevant once again in his own story.  It is cheap.  Yes, I know it is not as cheap as reading this manga for free , but still...​


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Jun 22, 2011)

Agreed with the OP. But this has been going for a long while, remember Konan and her talk about Naruto being the light. The worst is that this is unnecessary, if Kishi wants some people to side with his main character, everyone calling him a savior (or even Minato so) is not necessary.


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Narutofann12 said:


> Agreed with the OP. But this has been going for a long while, remember Konan and her talk about Naruto being the light. The worst is that this is unnecessary, if Kishi wants some people to side with his main character, everyone calling him a savior (or even Minato so) is not necessary.



Fucking rainbows dude.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jun 22, 2011)

Perhaps Kishi did read a few of those "Jesuske" threads from a few years ago and decided that it could be actually a very interesting path for Naruto himself to take.

From now on we will have "Narutuske".

Ah, and here goes my prediction that just as Naruto is now a light blub so will Sasuke become some sort of black lantern to show how dark, evil, and full of hatred he is.

Sasuke will be literally shrouded in darkness and it will be called DM(darkness mode) the equivalent of RM but EVIIIIL.


----------



## Volture (Jun 22, 2011)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> Kishi, never try your hand at anything resembling Christian imagery. It becomes corny and slightly offensive.


Jesus, stop that shit. Getting offended by something religion-toned in a fucking manga.

HURR DURR, MY ROYCE DIED 5 YEARS AGO, YOU MAY NOT EVER USE IT IN MANGA AGAIN.

Yes, the caps was necessary .


----------



## Orxon (Jun 22, 2011)

All we can do is laugh.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

Christianity? Why not Buddhism.


----------



## Kage (Jun 22, 2011)

the comparison went right over my head. 

must be something wrong with me.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)




----------



## Thor (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Christianity? Why not Buddhism.



Christianity has changed the world more?


----------



## Thor (Jun 22, 2011)




----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

Thor said:


> Christianity has changed the world more?



haha, and this is a japanese manga. Buddhism is centered all around salvation and new worlds and shit.

Even if it did have such inspiration, Japanese Christian elements are meant to be tacky.


----------



## Volture (Jun 22, 2011)

Uhm yeah, nice try at trying to portrait your religion as the superior one or something, but the sun behind the Buddha statue resembles the suns in the latest chapter a lot more .


----------



## Bender (Jun 22, 2011)

It's kishi what else is new? 

And this whole child of prophecy bullshit is making me hurl. Also the barbarous belief that he can accomplish this by rescuing his friend lover Sasuke from the grasp of evil is simply hilarious.


----------



## mayumi (Jun 22, 2011)

hinduism oldest religion in the world.


just stop with the ridiculous religious comparisons. its retarded. the sun reference was brought up by bee.


----------



## runsakurarun (Jun 22, 2011)

Naruto is accepting/marrying his male (left brain) and female (right brain) to attain his higher self. Sounds familiar?


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

God damn it izzy. 

I said this was MY interpretation...not THE interpretation.

I iz Catholic an' all.


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 22, 2011)

Jesus christ 
It's not even necessarily about the different religions, you silly sods. The point here is that they're being shown as deities here, which is, quite obviously, some of the corniest shit this manga has ever had, not to mention further wank for Minato and how he's a god along with his fat ginger wife.


----------



## Philip.J.Fry (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Stop defending.  There's a difference between forging your own path without the foretelling of elders and then forging your own path buying into a prophecy hook, line, and sinker.



The prophecy said that he would save the world or destroy it, There is ultimate destiny. 

People also need to quit saying he was destined for anything just cause he's a rikudo descendant and container of the kyuubi. So were the last two kyuubi jins, and they accomplished a lot...


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Jesus christ
> It's not even necessarily about the different religions, you silly sods. The point here is that they're being shown as deities here, which is, quite obviously, some of the corniest shit this manga has ever had, not to mention further wank for Minato and how he's a god along with his fat ginger wife.



Not to knock on your post, but if I were in that Naruverse I'd hit dat Kushina.

Outside of that, it's utterly corny.  That ladies and gents is the theme of my thread...a pathetic cornball.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

@Bender- Sasuke isn't just Naruto's mancrush, he's the heir of the Uchiha, the rival descendents of the Senju, you know, plot.



Volture said:


> Uhm yeah, nice try at trying to portrait your religion as the superior one or something, but the sun behind the Buddha statue resembles the suns in the latest chapter a lot more .



Those are tongues of fire. Christian halos have a ring of light.

Not only is this manga overridden with Buddhist elements (the swastika on Neji's forehead), the salvific implications are just as valid.



No one complained when he deified Itachi.

@Mael- Well I'm Catholic. Saints have halos too, big deal?


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

izzy you're taking this a step farther than my OP.

I said EVEN the Catholic Church...not implying the message was wholly Christian.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

Just look at the replies in thread, obsessing with the Christian idea. When I saw the page, it reminded me nothing of such. They are two dead people, Japanese WORSHIP their ancesters for fuck sake. they literally become GODS.


----------



## HakuGaara (Jun 22, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> Because before the earthquake we didn't saw stuff like this in the manga, right?



Eating notes and halos and talk of 'saviors'? Uhh.. *NO*.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jun 22, 2011)

God Danm it!!! it's like the chronicles of Narnia all over again


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 22, 2011)

^That thing from Narnia actually did bother me. I like Narnia, but Aslan suddenly being like Jesus (and not in a literal form in particular) put me off.

Seems the only one that views them as "deities" is Naruto.


----------



## Thor (Jun 22, 2011)

Volture said:


> Uhm yeah, nice try at trying to portrait your religion as the superior one or something, but the sun behind the Buddha statue resembles the suns in the latest chapter a lot more .



Tis a shame I'm not christian. Try again.


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Just look at the replies in thread, obsessing with the Christian idea. When I saw the page, it reminded me nothing of such. They are two dead people, Japanese WORSHIP their ancesters for fuck sake. they literally become GODS.



Ok...then you differ.  And the parent worship is frankly creepy.  It also corns this fucking chapter up...makes them out to be delusions of demigods.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

Kage said:


> the comparison went right over my head.
> 
> must be something wrong with me.



Get well soon.


----------



## Thor (Jun 22, 2011)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> ^That thing from Narnia actually did bother me. I like Narnia, but Aslan suddenly being like Jesus (and not in a literal form in particular) put me off.
> 
> Seems the only one that views them as "deities" is Naruto.



Aslan is meant to be an allegory of Jesus.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jun 22, 2011)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> ^That thing from Narnia actually did bother me. I like Narnia, but Aslan suddenly being like Jesus (and not in a literal form in particular) put me off.
> 
> Seems the only one that views them as "deities" is Naruto.



Gods! deities! we're splitting hairs here


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> ^That thing from Narnia actually did bother me. I like Narnia, but Aslan suddenly being like Jesus (and not in a literal form in particular) put me off.
> 
> Seems the only one that views them as "deities" is Naruto.



They shouldn't be...they're parents.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jun 22, 2011)

the discussion we got over this is beyond annoying  

some posts are just awful..


----------



## Addy (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> @Bender- Sasuke isn't just Naruto's mancrush, he's the heir of the Uchiha, the rival descendents of the Senju, you know, plot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i don't complain about the sun thingy in the chapter being tied to a religious thingy but the main difference is that itachi looked badass and no one mentioned the word sun. not to mention that was a godly aura of fear and badassness. 

kushina and minato have an aura of sunshine and rainbows........... so badass


----------



## Kage (Jun 22, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Get well soon.


thank you ;____;
if it spares me the righteous anger perhaps i'm better off.

there are certain things i've come to expect with a story like this one and then there are things i just don't give a shit about. this falls into the latter.


----------



## Aeiou (Jun 22, 2011)

The last few pages of the chapter made up for it


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Kage said:


> thank you ;____;
> if it spares me the righteous anger perhaps i'm better off.
> 
> there are certain things i've come to expect with a story like this one and then there are things i just don't give a shit about. this falls into the latter.



And at this point I feel my OP was taken out of context by accident. My dip. 3:


----------



## First Tsurugi (Jun 22, 2011)

I totally missed the halos.

That is really, really narmy.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

> well I find it just as excessive, simply the contexts are totally different. and saying sun isn't any worse than what's been hammered in the manga before. It's only cos it refers to Naruto who now has the duty to save the world that people whine so much. Sasuke's daaaaarkness is just as ridiculously overdone as a motif.



And people criticize that too.


----------



## Iamacloud (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Wow.  I think even the Catholic Church couldn't help but laugh at this one...if not be offended by it as well.



Because the sunFand any sun-related symbolism is copyrighted by the catholic church now? I thought it looked a lot more like Maya or Aztec styles (you know, people who actually worshipped the sun).

Being offended by stuff like that is getting dangerously close to the idea that lead to people dying for making caricatures of mahomet. Seriously if you can even imagine being offended by that panel, you take your religion too seriously.


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

Iamacloud said:


> Because the sunFand any sun-related symbolism is copyrighted by the catholic church now? I thought it looked a lot more like Maya or Aztec styles (you know, people who actually worshipped the sun).
> 
> Being offended by stuff like that is getting dangerously close to the idea that lead to people dying for making caricatures of mahomet. Seriously if you can even imagine being offended by that panel, you take your religion too seriously.





I guess when I said "Even" I meant that it was a possibility, not an outright analysis.

Please guys, comprehend my statement for what it truly is.

Fuck.


----------



## Iamacloud (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> I guess when I said "Even" I meant that it was a possibility, not an outright analysis.
> 
> Please guys, comprehend my statement for what it truly is.
> 
> Fuck.



Sorry, did not mean to aim at you. But rather at the people who actually would get offended by this. I'd politely ask them to take the stick out of their butt.


----------



## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Jun 22, 2011)

That's Kishi for ya


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> izzy, I couldn't give a good God damn what this Will of Fire "religion" is supposed to be all about and I couldn't give a good God damn what the Japanese love.  The Japanese love loli but you don't see me embracing that either.



I'm talking about writing style, not sexual fetishes which have nothing to do with the point.

then don't argue about it, it's in the manga, you can't just conveniently ignore it cos it doesn't sit well with you.



> It is corny.  Like it or not it's fucking corny.  It's a terrible theme that horribly mutated what Part 1 was supposed to be all about where he didn't buy this "savior" nonsense and instead wanted to be the Hokage and the toughest ninja of all time.  Ok, I got that.  To assume an almost Jesus-esque role and then prattle on about how Sasuke's the most dear thing to him like he almost did have a crush on him has become two words.
> 
> AD. NAUSEUM.


What's corny? oh the fact you take halos too seriously?
The Savior theme isn't the greatest, but it's more like Madara being a world-threat and Naruto, his ultimate target, the person that will stop the dirty business that he's been stirring up for a while. Sasuke is obviously involved in this. This is 1 2 3, it wouldn't be so bad for you if Naruto didn't so obviously yearn for Sasuke. The attachment is supposed to make it harder yet strengthening to him. If he didn't care as much for Sasuke, there wouldn't have been the link to let Itachi entrust him with his power. If he didn't care so much for Sasuke, the whole basis of their connection being at Magenkyo-awakening level by Sasuke wouldn't make any sense nor the influence he has on him. Their distinct way of fighting wouldn't be as interesting. It's what keeps the manga together in the first place, boohoo.



> We fucking get it.  How about talking about something else?  How about talking about fighting Madara?  How about your original goals to lead Konoha?


He hasn't reached Madara yet and lol leading Konoha when he first is trying to prevent it from being wiped off from the face of the Earth. What are you even trying to prove by such questions.



> As for the ancestors becoming heavenly beings, that's so cute.  I wonder how come Kakashi's dad wasn't really referred to that as such, or the 3rd Hokage or Asuma Sarutobi.  No, instead we have Naruto treating his parents like they were the God and Virgin Mary of the damn manga.  I'm not offended religiously, I'm just offended from a literature standpoint.


whatever man, it was just a background for chrissake.



Seto Kaiba said:


> And people criticize that too.



but in part 1 the light vs darkness wasn't that big of a deal to everyone now was it.


----------



## Grand Cross (Jun 22, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Jesus christ
> It's not even necessarily about the different religions, you silly sods. The point here is that they're being shown as deities here, which is, quite obviously, some of the corniest shit this manga has ever had, not to mention further wank for Minato and how he's a god along with his fat ginger wife.



This. They're sitting in the throne of gods this chapter. Even Aizen would be jelly.


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

The halos are stupid, izzy, Christian-themed or not.

They're stupid because they're painting the more messianic picture of Naruto where I remember it where it was just an orphan kid defying odds and fighting the power, not going into this complex where he feels he has to fix everything and still be unable to thank almost everyone for their support.



> He hasn't reached Madara yet and lol leading Konoha when he first is trying to prevent it from being wiped off from the face of the Earth. What are you even trying to prove by such questions.



I'm sick of hearing about fucking Sasuke.  That's what.



> whatever man, it was just a background for chrissake.



No, not whatever.  I thought it was a terrible theme going on especially when Kishimoto keeps being touted as a serious writer.  CS Goto could do a better job and he sucks balls like Stephanie Meyer sucks Clamato juice thinking she's a vampire.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> The halos are stupid, izzy, Christian-themed or not.
> 
> They're stupid because they're painting the more messianic picture of Naruto where I remember it where it was just an orphan kid defying odds and fighting the power, not going into this complex where he feels he has to fix everything and still be unable to thank almost everyone for their support.



growing up sucks 



> I'm sick of hearing about fucking Sasuke.  That's what.


ok, I understand 



> No, not whatever.  I thought it was a terrible theme going on especially when Kishimoto keeps being touted as a serious writer.  CS Goto could do a better job and he sucks balls like Stephanie Meyer sucks Clamato juice thinking she's a vampire.


 *looks at ur sig* 'Don't know why Naruto gets muck thrown at it. It's not intended to be  sophisticated, logical or intellectually stimulating. It's just ninjas  on too much Red Bull.'


----------



## Mael (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> growing up sucks







> ok, I understand



Says that SasuNaru in ya. 



> *looks at ur sig* 'Don't know why Naruto gets muck thrown at it. It's not intended to be  sophisticated, logical or intellectually stimulating. It's just ninjas  on too much Red Bull.'



Yeah, so why did Kishi make it out to be something greater than what it's supposed to be?

Fist of the North Star was pretty straightforward and actually hailed.  Where did we go wrong?


----------



## RoseWhirlpool (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> That's what they want you to think...when not illogically protesting condoms.
> 
> *is Catholic btw*



*Hauuuuhh*

(That's an angel's choir)

Prepare for more Naruto Messianism, like Naruto sacrificing himself, and turning the other cheek to Sasuke.


----------



## Grand Cross (Jun 22, 2011)

Remember when this used to just be about super-powered wizard ninjas? Yeah me either


----------



## Zarzamora-no-kimi (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't know if I need to learn more about literature, or if it has to do with my not religious upbringing, but I honestly didn't see that as corny at all. I didn't care that much to over think it honestly. 

Mael, izzyisozaki came with some cool, precise proof to dismantle the whole thread, and you decide to reply with your opinion about it all being corny instead of addressing it like it's meant to be addressed. Insulting the views of japanese people and their religion won't make this corny in an objective point of view.

I mean the dialogue wasn't that lovey dovey, neither did they used saturated purple prose, thought it really did read like Kishi has been trying to make emphasis on something and people. Still. Don't. Get. It. He made much emphasis on some things, like he was trying to spell it out for five year old, and still people don't read that, they really don't O.o

If you want people to read your post exactly like you mean, then you should start doing the same, Mael...to Kishimoto. Kishimoto started trying to explain the whole Prophecy thing and the Sasuke business some months ago, and people prefer to give their own interpretation instead of actually reading or trying to see what Kishi could mean behind his words, but reading them first. 

What could he mean with all that? 

The only thing I saw is that Naruto has once just addressed formally the prophecy thing, but he is going after that thinking because of his father, THAT'S ALL, he thinks he is just finishing what the savior wanted to end, and couldn't. And whether you like it or not, Minato has really been portrayed as light. Naruto wants to end the job. Naruto has been having certain things to do since part I, do you want him to go the other way just because it ends up he has to do it any way? He NEVER changed paths, so what do you want him to do?

About Sasuke, so I don't know what type of education you all have, but in my opinion, if you start something, you finish it. It's about principles, ethics, a firm mindset. He has stumbled across Sasuke how many times since the time skip? Three? And you say he is obsessed? Maybe he is, we are not really in his place to judge accordingly, in the end, it's all opinions, but Kishi has been trying to spell some things out and people just don't read that like it's meant to be read.

Didn't you people read the last chapter? The previous Hachibi vessel said they need something to hold on to reality, anything they can call special, something which for they can wake up everyday, Naruto decided that was Sasuke (Just as Gaara decided that was Naruto, and then his people. Just as Bee considers Raikage a brother). If you don't understand that and prefer to see it as a gay thing then you are in for a lot of disappointment. It has been a year and over four since the Prophecy and Sasuke respectively, and you still whine about it...I don't know if I'm more exasperated by you not getting over that or my for addressing it in the first place -_-


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Says that SasuNaru in ya.



no in the sense I understand because I too am sick of Sasuke. However abysmal his character becomes it's more ok cos at least he isn't a _naisu gay_ (I meant to wrote 'guy' but the typo amused me).



> Yeah, so why did Kishi make it out to be something greater than what it's supposed to be?
> 
> Fist of the North Star was pretty straightforward and actually hailed.  Where did we go wrong?



Kishi started watching triologies like Stars Wars, in fact he said it distracted him from his work  /random explanation

He's sentimental  some authors just have certain fix. Take Katsura, he can draw at god level but all he ever writes about are poor boys that can't get laid in the beginning or the meaning of justice.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

Iamacloud said:


> Because the sunFand any sun-related symbolism is copyrighted by the catholic church now? I thought it looked a lot more like Maya or Aztec styles (you know, people who actually worshipped the sun).
> 
> Being offended by stuff like that is getting dangerously close to the idea that lead to people dying for making caricatures of mahomet. Seriously if you can even imagine being offended by that panel, you take your religion too seriously.



The hilarity never ceases on how uber-defensive people like the one I'm quoting get towards criticism, even to the point where the basic idea flies over their heads.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> but in part 1 the light vs darkness wasn't that big of a deal to everyone now was it.



Well no shit. It wasn't a shoehorned piece of crap. Seriously, that's like asking why many didn't have a problem with Naruto's part I person in comparison to what he became after his first reunion with Sasuke.


----------



## SSGG (Jun 22, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> Nah, they will love it, as soon as Jesus (Naruto) fights Harry Potter (Kabuto).


 
Ahh, yes, Catholics love to hate Harry Potter...cause it's totally evil and stuff...

HP's still a pretty shitty series though, regardless of whether one thinks it's evil or not. Just watched all the movies; story's even less coherent than your typical shonen manga-and that's saying something.

I seriously doubt Kishi was referencing Christianity though. I didn't even think of Christian mythology when I saw that panel, and I was raised Catholic. That "halo" like symbolism can be found in almost any major religion in some work of art or another. And considering Japan is almost 0% Christian, it's likely that if he was even referencing any religion, it was probably something else altogether.


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Just look at the replies in thread, obsessing with the Christian idea. When I saw the page, it reminded me nothing of such. They are two dead people, Japanese WORSHIP their ancesters for fuck sake. they literally become GODS.



They are also deadbeat parents that left Naruto alone to grow up (Minato moreso than Kushina ofcourse). When Naruto first met them, there was just a moment when he punched his father but he then immediately forgives and believes them? And now views them as his two "suns" that give him the power to go through anything ()?
Not even a smidgeon of his doubt about Minato's extremely poorly made decision of "lol my son will take care of this kthxbai" elaborated on? He just instantly goes from meeting them once to thinking they're his two "suns"?

My word...


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## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well no shit. It wasn't a shoehorned piece of crap. Seriously, that's like asking why many didn't have a problem with Naruto's part I person in comparison to what he became after his first reunion with Sasuke.



well if there's anything I like in a story it's when the characters don't stay the same 



?Sharingan Squid? said:


> They are also deadbeat parents that left Naruto alone to grow up (Minato moreso than Kushina ofcourse). When Naruto first met them, there was just a moment when he punched his father but he then immediately forgives and believes them? And now views them as his two "suns" that give him the power to go through anything ()?
> Not even a smidgeon of his doubt about Minato's extremely poorly made decision of "lol my son will take care of this kthxbai" elaborated on? He just instantly goes from meeting them once to thinking they're his two "suns"?
> 
> My word...



Naruto doesn't have this pity-fuck way of thinking, nor would he point fingers at his parents who obviously didn't enjoy dying without being able to even live over a day with their child. They didn't go to gamble in LA, Minato's soul is trapped in hell and Kushina's didn't even like the idea in the first place. And you know, sometimes it's better to look at the bright side and just be glad your parents actually gave a damn even if it was like you didn't have any.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> well if there's anything I like in a story it's when the characters don't stay the same



That was a lousy response. You know full-well that wasn't my point.


----------



## batman22wins (Jun 22, 2011)

Mael said:


> Stop defending.  There's a difference between forging your own path without the foretelling of elders and then forging your own path buying into a prophecy hook, line, and sinker.



Hmm even before Naruto knew about destiny crap, he still would of not listened and went to fight. Naruto inherited Jman wishes. That's all


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## izzyisozaki (Jun 22, 2011)

I was being sarcastic Seto, how could you not tell!?


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 22, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> I was being sarcastic Seto, how could you not tell!?



You've been particularly defensive this entire thread.


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## CrazyAries (Jun 23, 2011)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> They are also deadbeat parents that left Naruto alone to grow up (Minato moreso than Kushina ofcourse). When Naruto first met them, there was just a moment when he punched his father but he then immediately forgives and believes them? And now views them as his two "suns" that give him the power to go through anything ()?
> Not even a smidgeon of his doubt about Minato's extremely poorly made decision of "lol my son will take care of this kthxbai" elaborated on? He just instantly goes from meeting them once to thinking they're his two "suns"?
> 
> My word...



Are you saying Naruto got TnJed by his parents?


----------



## Circe (Jun 23, 2011)

I don't care what anyone says. This chapter was fucking painful.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 23, 2011)

After today's chapter, I would like to make an ambitious proposal. Let's all vow to turn on our bullshit radars and not lie down and simply eat the bullshit that Kishimoto is trying to force-feed us. There's a bumpy road ahead for anybody who tries to see the truth in all of the garbage, but you will be grateful to yourself for not pulling the sheep's wool over your eyes anymore.


----------



## Yuna (Jun 23, 2011)

So you're upset that Naruto's accepted his role as playing a great part in the fate of the world? What would you rather have him do, *not* try to save the world? Naruto has never been about "forging his own destiny". In Part I, he was all about *making people acknowledge him*. Since he's already achieved that goal, he's moved on to his next goal: To live according to and to uphold the values of his father, mother and teacher (Jiraiya).


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## Soca (Jun 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> So you're upset that Naruto's accepted his role as playing a great part in the fate of the world? What would you rather have him do, *not* try to save the world? Naruto has never been about "forging his own destiny". In Part I, he was all about *making people acknowledge him*. Since he's already achieved that goal, he's moved on to his next goal: To live according to and to uphold the values of his father, mother and teacher (Jiraiya) and dumb down everyone else ideals on how to properly deal with matters because he is the world's savior



fixed for you


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You've been particularly defensive this entire thread.



cos that's what I do to not succumb to the utter despair of this manga's fandom


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## HolyDemon (Jun 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> So you're upset that Naruto's accepted his role as playing a great part in the fate of the world? What would you rather have him do, *not* try to save the world? Naruto has never been about "forging his own destiny". In Part I, he was all about *making people acknowledge him*. Since he's already achieved that goal, he's moved on to his next goal: To live according to and to uphold the values of his father, mother and teacher (Jiraiya).



I kinda agree with you. He's more likely to follows other's destiny. And for some reason, he tends to quote whomever on the top of his head for convenient persuasion of his opponent. 

It's getting harder and harder to figure what exactly he's after, ultimate power? World's peace? Family's legacy? Protection of friends? Fighting thirst? Followers?

It's weird though, that kind of idealistically flexible character should attract my attention, but his does naught but pisses me off. Maybe it's just the author's execution. 

On the topic of symbolism, I try not to notice symbolism, as I regard it as shallow exploit of intellectualism, and it annoys me more than intrigues. If an author is out to write fiction, he better create his own world, rather than getting mixed up with half-baked philosophical school he himself can't even bother to study...


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## zuul (Jun 23, 2011)

Addy said:


> two suns? really
> 
> and i could swear that naruto was gonna vomit sunshine at one point



And shit rainbow. 

This was pretty terrible but totally expectable since the destiny crap has been brough up.

I used to like Naruto because he was a human. Now he's a semi god that wield the ultimate truth and must submit everyone to his view.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> cos that's what I do to not succumb to the utter despair of this manga's fandom



Because we expected a humbler human protagonist with a heart of gold and with powers that weren't his choice.  Now he's full-tilt savior mode and we're disappointed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2011)

Manga is coming to an end. A year or so left.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> cos that's what I do to not succumb to the utter despair of this manga's fandom



It's not succumbing to despair to recognize shit when you see it.


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## zuul (Jun 23, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manga is coming to an end. A year or so left.



Is it an excuse ?


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It's not succumbing to despair to recognize shit when you see it.



Seto Kaiba for the thread winner, ladies and gentlemen.


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## Ayana (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm not that religious, but I feel offended.


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## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

Ayana said:


> I'm not that religious, but I feel offended.



Offended by terrible protagonist transformation that is?


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## Ayana (Jun 23, 2011)

That panel looks like a painting from a church, so now his parents are new Gods or what? Sorry, but I am not into Mary Sues. All Uzumakis can go to hell. Along with Minato.


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## zuul (Jun 23, 2011)

From a Roman Catholic POV, it could be seen as blasphemy indeed.


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## Ayana (Jun 23, 2011)

I am a Roman Catholic and I can say it is blasphemy.


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## Yuna (Jun 23, 2011)

HolyDemon said:


> I kinda agree with you. He's more likely to follows other's destiny. And for some reason, he tends to quote whomever on the top of his head for convenient persuasion of his opponent.
> 
> It's getting harder and harder to figure what exactly he's after, ultimate power? World's peace? Family's legacy? Protection of friends? Fighting thirst? Followers?


Most probably a combination of:
World peace
Familial legacy
Protecting his friends

Because, really, all of those are interconnected.


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## princess of iwagakure (Jun 23, 2011)

WHAT THE HELL HAVE KISHI DONE TO MY FAVORITE CHARACTER!?

You know, the author might as well kill all the other characters apart from Naruto, Sasuke, and Madara:sanji


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## zuul (Jun 23, 2011)

princess of iwagakure said:


> WHAT THE HELL HAVE KISHI DONE TO MY FAVORITE CHARACTER!?
> 
> You know, the author might as well kill all the other characters apart from Naruto, Sasuke, and Madara:sanji



You're absolutely right.

Which is really really sad.


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## WorstUsernameEver (Jun 23, 2011)

"What was inside our hearts before the monster, shines like a sun, powers us to go to any length"

Don't see anything religious or wrong there


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## princess of iwagakure (Jun 23, 2011)

All the other characters might as well change their military outfits to cheerleader outfits with bonbons and the outcome won't change.

I really can't cheer for Naruto as much anymore. I cheered for him because he was the underdog who fought destiny with all the little talents and skills from hard work. But, who needs cheering when the destiny decides your fate as god?

I blame Kishi for this. He ruined Naruto's character for me.


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## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

WorstUsernameEver said:


> "What was inside our hearts before the monster, shines like a sun, powers us to go to any length"
> 
> Don't see anything religious or wrong there



Aside from the fact it's destroying what was an admirable character in Naruto?

Kishi's destroyed Sakura, made Team 8/Gai/7 nigh obsolete, sidelined Kurenai, pulled the Uchihaha, and the hits keep on coming.


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## runsakurarun (Jun 23, 2011)

Several answers (and belief systems) have already been brought up in this thread.

You can either use them to expand your knowledge/awareness or just come back here to reinforce your own negative and limiting outlook.


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## Addy (Jun 23, 2011)

zuul said:


> And shit rainbow.
> 
> This was pretty terrible but totally expectable since the destiny crap has been brough up.
> 
> I used to like Naruto because he was a human. Now he's a semi god that wield the ultimate truth and must submit everyone to his view.



i wouldn't mind that if this was intended as a comedy but it isn't


----------



## Mr Horrible (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> Because we expected a humbler human protagonist with a heart of gold and with powers that weren't his choice.  Now he's full-tilt savior mode and we're disappointed.



When you consider the context, Naruto is simply referring to beating Madara. 

Also note that SM Naruto does actually have some ability in regards to precognition.

And one more point; it's likely we'll see Naruto rebel against any prediction with which he disagrees.


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## Kael Hyun (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> Aside from the fact it's destroying what was an admirable character in Naruto?
> 
> Kishi's destroyed Sakura, made Team 8/Gai/7 nigh obsolete, sidelined Kurenai, pulled the Uchihaha, and the hits keep on coming.



Wow Mael you really are an idiot if you cant see the good parts of those characters right now you must be fucking blind.


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## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

runsakurarun said:


> Several answers (and belief systems) have already been brought up in this thread.
> 
> You can either use them to expand your knowledge/awareness or just come back here to reinforce your own negative and limiting outlook.



So basically what disagrees with you is negative and limiting.

As Seto said, recognizing shit isn't negative.  Cynical maybe, but not negative and limiting.  I'd rather be realistic than try to cram a diamond into shit.



Mr Horrible said:


> When you consider the context, Naruto is simply referring to beating Madara.
> 
> Also note that SM Naruto does actually have some ability in regards to precognition.
> 
> And one more point; it's likely we'll see Naruto rebel against any prediction with which he disagrees.



The context is not the issue, but the symbolism and this sudden upswing of the "Tao of Naruto."

I'm sorry but I'm finding it unimaginably cheesy in a manga that's trying to take itself seriously.



MyNindoForever said:


> Wow Mael you really are an idiot if you cant see the good parts of those characters right now you must be fucking blind.



What good parts?  Seriously, what good parts?

Naruto had good parts, in Part 1 and the beginning of Part 2.  Then he just went overkill.  Sakura had potential...so much fucking potential, then Kishi made her an emotional puppet to the whims of the men around her.  Not a lick of independence in her anymore.  Team 8 and Team Gai don't even function as teams anymore, each individual typecast into their roles and not really getting their fullest moment in the sun unless your name is Might Gai versus a manshark.

And why of all people...you have the gall to be so butthurt over this?

Yeah I say that people shouldn't be so caring over this and here I am.  Maybe it was time I felt I explain why I'm so cynical over this when I liked this back in 2007.


----------



## Kaizoku-O Luffy (Jun 23, 2011)

This is the consequence of making a main character to that of the legend who created everything in the ninja world. Rather than making him the legend ala part 1 statement "where even failures can become great and you make your own destiny" ala goku becoming super sayan.


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## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

Kaizoku-O Luffy said:


> This is the consequence of making a main character to that of the legend who created everything in the ninja world. Rather than making him the legend ala part 1 statement "where even failures can become great and you make your own destiny" ala goku becoming super sayan.



Thank you.  I like consistency. 

This isn't it...and if so...certainly not positive.


----------



## primary colours123 (Jun 23, 2011)

Hey OP,
I too was annoyed with the chapter, but not with what you are pointing out.

As far as I know, in Hinduism, (though I'm not sure of Buddhism) parents are supposed to be equivalent to God for the children, and sometimes, through the eyes of the children, the parents are shown with Halos, just to signify their importance in the child's life.

I don't know of the significance of this in Christianity, so I really can't comment.

The real problematic point for me was the whole Savior thing, and how readily Naruto has accepted himself as such. I mean, is this the same boy from part one, fighting "Destiny"?
He is even dangling it as a bargaining chip to the Raikage.

And what about statements like "Saviors don't make mistakes, so I won't." 

Saviors NEVER say that they are the Saviors, they are called thus, by the others AFTER they have done it. And even after that, they are not the ones calling themselves the Savior.

What has Naruto turned into? I dunno what to call such behavior, naivet? or arrogance.
Take care.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

primary colours123 said:


> Hey OP,
> I too was annoyed with the chapter, but not with what you are pointing out.
> 
> As far as I know, in Hinduism, (though I'm not sure of Buddhism) parents are supposed to be equivalent to God for the children, and sometimes, through the eyes of the children, the parents are shown with Halos, just to signify their importance in the child's life.
> ...



Thanks for the knowledge of the Hindu aspects, which I can respect.

However my real beef, and sorry for not clarifying, is exactly what you just pointed out.  The "savior" complex has taken a turn for the absurd.  Those who recommended "hero" instead of "savior" are spot on.


----------



## Yuna (Jun 23, 2011)

princess of iwagakure said:


> All the other characters might as well change their military outfits to cheerleader outfits with bonbons and the outcome won't change.
> 
> I really can't cheer for Naruto as much anymore. I cheered for him because he was the underdog who fought destiny with all the little talents and skills from hard work. But, who needs cheering when the destiny decides your fate as god.


1) Not once has the manga actually stated that Naruto was destined for failure. Only specific individuals have done that and only one of them persisted with it.
2) Naruto has been hinted at possessing tools to become an exceptional Ninja since the start of the manga. It's been further hinted that the only reason why it took him so long to attain strength was because people did not believe in him and that he requires a more... specialized education than what is taught at the academy. Furthermore, Naruto's seal, coupled with the additional seal Orochimaru placed on it, was preventing him from properly moulding and controlling Chakra. He's had tremendous Chakra from birth, he learned Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (and its Tajuu version), a *Jounin* level Jutsu within hours (in addition to his quick mastery of Water Walking and the Rasengan), he possesses the healing factor, he's a great tactician (as shown against Zabuza and Neji) and the various Kyuubi modes give him additional strength (KN0 being completely without side effects past that 1st time he used it).

Naruto *was* an underdog for various reasons. Being destined for failure was never one of them.


----------



## princess of iwagakure (Jun 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> 1) Not once has the manga actually stated that Naruto was destined for failure. Only specific individuals have done that and only one of them persisted with it.
> 2) Naruto has been hinted at possessing tools to become an exceptional Ninja since the start of the manga. It's been further hinted that the only reason why it took him so long to attain strength was because people did not believe in him and that he requires a more... specialized education than what is taught at the academy. Furthermore, Naruto's seal, coupled with the additional seal Orochimaru placed on it, was preventing him from properly moulding and controlling Chakra. He's had tremendous Chakra from birth, he learned Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (and its Tajuu version), a *Jounin* level Jutsu within hours (in addition to his quick mastery of Water Walking and the Rasengan), he possesses the healing factor, he's a great tactician (as shown against Zabuza and Neji) and the various Kyuubi modes give him additional strength (KN0 being completely without side effects past that 1st time he used it).
> 
> Naruto *was* an underdog for various reasons. Being destined for failure was never one of them.



I have never stated that Naruto was destined to be a failure.


----------



## mayumi (Jun 23, 2011)

WorstUsernameEver said:


> "What was inside our hearts before the monster, shines like a sun, powers us to go to any length"
> 
> Don't see anything religious or wrong there



its easy to understand. especially since its bee's own words. kushina described it as filling the jin with love before the bijuu is sealed. so naruto just compared the love of his parents to the sun that bee talked about. what do you think the whole purpose of kushina telling naruto "i love you" was for?

its basically the same effect as raikage's "bee you are important to me"

i can't believe this thread is still going on though.



primary colours123 said:


> Hey OP,
> I too was annoyed with the chapter, but not with what you are pointing out.
> 
> As far as I know, in Hinduism, (though I'm not sure of Buddhism) parents are supposed to be equivalent to God for the children, and sometimes, through the eyes of the children, the parents are shown with Halos, just to signify their importance in the child's life.



this is very true. my mother does not really worship any god but she respects her parents a lot and prostrates like saying namaste to them every day because they were her most important people and i feel the same with my parents.

but maybe its a cultural thing. i don't really see the problem with the halos or whatever because i don't take it in the religious sense. however the savior thing could have been avoided, kishi could have simply stuck with "hero" which was part 1 theme.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

mayumi said:


> its easy to understand. especially since its bee's own words. kushina described it as filling the jin with love before the bijuu is sealed. so naruto just compared the love of his parents to the sun that bee talked about. what do you think the whole purpose of kushina telling naruto "i love you" was for?
> 
> its basically the same effect as raikage's "bee you are important to me"
> 
> i can't believe this thread is still going on though.



But it's such decadent and delicious fun!


----------



## HolyDemon (Jun 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> 1) Not once has the manga actually stated that Naruto was destined for failure. Only specific individuals have done that and only one of them persisted with it.
> 2) Naruto has been hinted at possessing tools to become an exceptional Ninja since the start of the manga. It's been further hinted that the only reason why it took him so long to attain strength was because people did not believe in him and that he requires a more... specialized education than what is taught at the academy. Furthermore, Naruto's seal, coupled with the additional seal Orochimaru placed on it, was preventing him from properly moulding and controlling Chakra. He's had tremendous Chakra from birth, he learned Kage Bunshin no Jutsu (and its Tajuu version), a *Jounin* level Jutsu within hours (in addition to his quick mastery of Water Walking and the Rasengan), he possesses the healing factor, he's a great tactician (as shown against Zabuza and Neji) and the various Kyuubi modes give him additional strength (KN0 being completely without side effects past that 1st time he used it).
> 
> Naruto *was* an underdog for various reasons. Being destined for failure was never one of them.



You could have said Naruto is a Mary Sue, whose very definition is "one destined for all but failure" (And very unfortunately in this mange case, he's not the only one).

It's more concise that way.


----------



## Yuna (Jun 23, 2011)

princess of iwagakure said:


> I have never stated that Naruto was destined to be a failure.


"I cheered for him because he was the underdog who *fought destiny* with all the *little talents and skills* from hard work."

So... exactly what destiny was he fighting then?



HolyDemon said:


> You could have said Naruto is a *Mary Sue, whose very definition is "one destined for all but failure"* (And very unfortunately in this mange case, he's not the only one).
> 
> It's more concise that way.


According to what credible sources? Seriously, that's the fist time I've seen "Mary Sue" defined as such.


----------



## Kool-Aid (Jun 23, 2011)

i actually liked naruto in part 1, but OP is right that part 2 naruto is a shit character.

i'm glad his parents are dead, and i originally couldn't wait to see who they were and what they were like.

 if itachi wasn't introduced as a zombie i would've defiantly dropped this shit by now.   

after he dies again, and i see what sasuke's EMS is like, i'm done.



primary colours123 said:


> The real problematic point for me was the whole Savior thing, and how readily Naruto has accepted himself as such. I mean, is this the same boy from part one, fighting "Destiny"?
> He is even dangling it as a bargaining chip to the Raikage.
> 
> And what about statements like "Saviors don't make mistakes, so I won't."
> ...



i agree 100% with this. this is what made me rage.


----------



## Sorin (Jun 23, 2011)

When it comes to Naruto i only look forward to his fights at this point.Everytime him and his cheerleaders open their mouths they make me facepalm.It's always about destiny, prophecy or saviour bullshit.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

The way, in imagery, that Kishimoto has been portraying Naruto as of late has also irked me phenomenally.  When I felt Naruto going into battle, to help his comrades and Konoha (which he needs to express more directly), I expected this:



It's not how it's supposed to be 100% obviously, but feelings conveyed in this should invoke a greater feeling of being the hero than the constant "preaching" of his word and with that shit-eating grin on his face.

Maybe it's a superficial hope.  Maybe it's a desire to see something more stoic.


----------



## Kael Hyun (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> What good parts?  Seriously, what good parts?
> 
> Naruto had good parts, in Part 1 and the beginning of Part 2.  Then he just went overkill.  Sakura had potential...so much fucking potential, then Kishi made her an emotional puppet to the whims of the men around her.  Not a lick of independence in her anymore.  Team 8 and Team Gai don't even function as teams anymore, each individual typecast into their roles and not really getting their fullest moment in the sun unless your name is Might Gai versus a manshark.
> 
> ...



 It's called Natural progression of a character which you seem to be missing and is going right over your head Naruto delt with his grief Sakura on the other-hand did not she just ignored it and still has a chance to pull through.

Team 8 was ALWAYS a one-trick pony of Trackers and Kishi is NOW expanding on them on how they would be used in a battle. As for team 9/Guy Kishi is giving them a chance to shine on there own especially Tenten. Is it that hard to understand? And the War isn't over so we may get another version of like how Team 10 got to show off. As for Kurenai what were you expecting she is/was having a baby What the fuck do you think happens when someone is about to have a baby? 

As for butthurt, What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not happy about any of this shit ether, but you know what? Bashing Kishi isn't going to solve ANYTHING. Writers can't make everybody happy but they do there best. Why can't you accept that?


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

MyNindoForever said:


> It's called Natural progression of a character which you seem to be missing and is going right over your head Naruto delt with his grief Sakura on the other-hand did not she just ignored it and still has a chance to pull through.
> 
> Team 8 was ALWAYS a one-trick pony of Trackers and Kishi is NOW expanding on them on how they would be used in a battle. As for team 9/Guy Kishi is giving them a chance to shine on there own especially Tenten. Is it that hard to understand? And the War isn't over so we may get another version of like how Team 10 got to show off. As for Kurenai what were you expecting she is/was having a baby What the fuck do you think happens when someone is about to have a baby?
> 
> As for butthurt, What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not happy about any of this shit ether, but you know what? Bashing Kishi isn't going to solve ANYTHING. Writers can't make everybody happy but they do there best. Why can't you accept that?



You've completely overlooked the entire cheerleader role Sakura's been reduced to, not to mention the chapter-after-chapter cry and possibly lie fest she was subjected to thanks to Sai and Sasuke.

Team 8 isn't getting expanded for shit, FYI.  And it's funny you say that because you're simply pointing out individual moments and mistakenly blanketing that as a team thing.  Hells no.  It's also funny since you claim they're being expanded yet you said one-trick pony previously.

Oh wow, Tenten used a Banana Phone.  That's teamwork!



Guess what, kid?  Kurenai doesn't even get shown!  I know she's not going to be in the God damn battle, but some present-time Kurenai trying to support however she can doesn't hurt either.  Kishi sidelined her completely.  I mean, was Team 8 even at Asuma's funeral?  What happened?

Kishi is a terrible writer, kid.  My beef is the naive praise people give him.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> Because we expected a humbler human protagonist with a heart of gold and with powers that weren't his choice.  Now he's full-tilt savior mode and we're disappointed.



Kishimoto is still a mangaka on his first serialized story that's way too popular for its own good.



Seto Kaiba said:


> It's not succumbing to despair to recognize shit when you see it.



I've already come to terms to how bad this is, so I don't need to spend the rest of my time tearing the story apart. I reconcile myself with the manga therefore it's never much of a surprise or big deal to me. Reading Naruto is for my distraction, not increasing my annoyance.



> Ayana said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not that religious, but I feel offended.
> ...


everything else you fap to in manga definitely wouldn't contradict Catholic morals, I'm sure :33



primary colours123 said:


> And what about statements like "Saviors don't make mistakes, so I won't."
> 
> Saviors NEVER say that they are the Saviors, they are called thus, by the others AFTER they have done it. And even after that, they are not the ones calling themselves the Savior.
> 
> ...



How is that Naruto saying he's a savior? He's says he's only doing what is expected of one.

You're forcing an arguement just to make Naruto look like he was totally confident about being able to do this shit when he clearly said the opposite to Nagato, cheers.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Kishimoto is still a mangaka on his first serialized story that's way too popular for its own good.



I certainly hope someone will tell him that.


----------



## Dim Mak (Jun 23, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> What ? Can you read ?
> 
> He doesn't have a messiah comples * he just inherited his father/student/master wishs/ideals* , whatever I'll not debate with someon that doesn't even answer .


 ffs. This is about Kishi's writing.


----------



## Audible Phonetics (Jun 23, 2011)

Simple Solution read One Piece


----------



## Linkdarkside (Jun 23, 2011)

if naruto die at the end of the manga ,there will be be Naruto died for our sins posters lol.


----------



## primary colours123 (Jun 23, 2011)

Hey,


izzyisozaki said:


> How is that Naruto saying he's a savior? He's says he's only doing what is expected of one.
> 
> You're forcing an arguement just to make Naruto look like he was totally confident about being able to do this shit when he clearly said the opposite to Nagato, cheers.



Naruto got to know about his father more and how his father entrusted him with his destiny AFTER meeting Pain. That was his journey for self discovery, in his mindscape. Unfortunately, he seems to have been taken by the Savior bit a bit  too much.
*Raikage's fist says "hi" to his face*
I am not getting how else should it be taken?

I'm not offended by this due to any religious aspects which might be perceived  and which I don't perceive as I said in my previous post, I have enough faith not to get offended by a kids manga.
What I'm saying is about the ruining of Naruto's character. He was one to forge his own destiny, now he is doing this, because he believes his father was the last savior and he was entrusted with it. It doesn't seem like his CHOICE anymore.
Take care.

edit: Sorry, wrong page link.
Here: *Raikage's fist says "hi" to his face*


----------



## Ayana (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> everything else you fap to in manga definitely wouldn't contradict Catholic morals, I'm sure :33



I fap to het hentai, there's no wannabe yaoi unlike in the manga.


----------



## Hero of Shadows (Jun 23, 2011)

I'll just give my opininon on this whole destiny matter and why Naruto has been cosnsitent on it:

 Part I:

 Neji: Your destiny is to be a loser!

 Naruto: Destiny is wrong I'll fight it.

 Part II

 Raikage: Your destiny is to be our saviour,thus you implicitly  win at life.

 Naruto: Destiny is right that's why you couldn't fight me!

 You see Naruto,and this might seem trite and obvious but it needs to be said,is in this thing for Naruto his wants his desires if destiny is opposed to him damn destiny,if destiny is with him destiny is right.


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Naruto doesn't have this pity-fuck way of thinking, nor would he point fingers at his parents who obviously didn't enjoy dying without being able to even live over a day with their child. They didn't go to gamble in LA, Minato's soul is trapped in hell and Kushina's didn't even like the idea in the first place. And you know, sometimes it's better to look at the bright side and just be glad your parents actually gave a damn even if it was like you didn't have any.


Considering he did think of himself as nothing but an idiot and a dropout when he was talking to Minato, atleast there was ground laid for that thinking.
But what you're describing here is simply forgiving them, not building a metaphorical church for them and deifying them to "super ultra lord god" status after meeting either of them once, which is what he's basically doing.


Ayana said:


> That panel looks like a painting from a church, so now his parents are new Gods are what? Sorry, but I am not into Mary Sues. All Uzumakis can go to hell. Along with Minato.


Exactly.


princess of iwagakure said:


> All the other characters might as well change their military outfits to cheerleader outfits with bonbons and the outcome won't change.
> 
> I really can't cheer for Naruto as much anymore. I cheered for him because he was the underdog who fought destiny with all the little talents and skills from hard work. But, who needs cheering when the destiny decides your fate as god?
> 
> I blame Kishi for this. He ruined Naruto's character for me.



Honestly, when Naruto gets to the front line i am waiting for pretty much the whole alliance to back out and tell Naruto: "Yeah, you got this, we're letting you do your thing since you're the destined child and all. We're just going to the Ninja Bahamas. Yes, all of us."


----------



## Seraphiel (Jun 23, 2011)

Audible Phonetics said:


> Simple Solution read One Piece



Epic win. You sir win the internet.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

@Squid- The problem is that this is written no where. All he is in that scene is someone that feels he was loved and believed in by his parents.



primary colours123 said:


> Hey,
> 
> 
> Naruto got to know about his father more and how his father entrusted him with his destiny AFTER meeting Pain. That was his journey for self discovery, in his mindscape. Unfortunately, he seems to have been taken by the Savior bit a bit  too much.
> ...



eh that's still not him saying it. you said that he calls himself the savior despite the irony that his nindo has always been saying he will do this or that, it's a promise! in the first place. I don't see how you are trying to spin it off as something negative of his persona, he has doubts like any other person the difference is that he never stops in front of them, odds be damned. The way it was set out was more like this: They say I could be the savior? Haha. But they have faith in this, so shit, I'll go for it, I never give up.'



> I'm not offended by this due to any religious aspects which might be perceived  and which I don't perceive as I said in my previous post, I have enough faith not to get offended by a kids manga.
> What I'm saying is about the ruining of Naruto's character. He was one to forge his own destiny, now he is doing this, because he believes his father was the last savior and he was entrusted with it. It doesn't seem like his CHOICE anymore.
> Take care.


I'm sincerely humored if anyone has the hypocrisy to be offended by something of the sort when they probably enjoy countless forms of masturbation that are condemned by Catholicism. Coherent morals you got there. I'm Catholic (obviously not dogmatic) but there is no way a potentially religious portrayal recalling Christianity of two manga characters could offend me. It would be like bawing over Lady Gaga's Judas. You're reading a manga prevalently about people that murder, so stfu. (not you, just the arguement some seem to be pulling off)

One doesn't always have the luxury of choice. The point is that he accepted to do it for the faith people put in him either cos they were his parents or because he did something that convinced them.


----------



## Tsukiyo (Jun 23, 2011)

naruto is jesus


----------



## FearTear (Jun 23, 2011)




----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)




----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

Sasuke should be Judas instead of Sai.


----------



## Brickhunt (Jun 23, 2011)

At this point, the only thing that can make me satisfied is to see Naruto actually screw up things for the Alliance, his own actions at the war cause some of his friends die, realize he actually fucked things instead of making them better to then start fixing the shit. I'm tired of his fucking messiah complex. Just let him get a reality check and then you can have him save the world.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 23, 2011)

Pain's theme should be Naruto's now.


----------



## primary colours123 (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> eh that's still not him saying it. you said that he calls himself the savior despite the irony that his nindo has always been saying he will do this or that, it's a promise! in the first place. I don't see how you are trying to spin it off as something negative of his persona, he has doubts like any other person the difference is that he never stops in front of them, odds be damned. The way it was set out was more like this: They say I could be the savior? Haha. But they have faith in this, so shit, I'll go for it, I never give up.'


Sorry, I linked the wrong page there. 
Correct one: Link removed
He doesn't look even a bit underconfident there. He is not even giving a "I'll try my best." or a "What if..." though there. While it is good, not to be in doubts, when the outcome of tyour action is the survival of the whole world, one should just stop, reflect and think the best possible way out, rather than rushing in with overconfidence, because you are "supposed to" save the world.
My opinion differs from yours, but sorry, I can't see a trace of the attitude you are portraying for him.


> I'm sincerely humored if anyone has the hypocrisy to be offended by something of the sort when they probably enjoy countless forms of masturbation that are condemned by Catholicism. Coherent morals you got there. I'm Catholic (obviously not dogmatic) but there is no way a potentially religious portrayal recalling Christianity of two manga characters could offend me. It would be like bawing over Lady Gaga's Judas. You're reading a manga prevalently about people that murder, so stfu. (not you, just the arguement some seem to be pulling off)
> 
> One doesn't always have the luxury of choice. The point is that he accepted to do it for the faith people put in him either cos they were his parents or because he did something that convinced them.



I seriously don't know much about Christianity, so I have no idea exactly what people are finding offensive, and therefore I really can't and won't judge. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Moreover, as I said in my first post, even if the suns are deliberately portrayed as halos, _I _don't find offensive intent in it.

But er... about your allusion... eh.. TooMuchInfo.

But while he is doing that for others, he should also take into account that others too want to do this for him, for keeping him safe. Just because he is the Savior his father trusted, doesn't mean something can not go horribly wrong. He should expect the best, but not be assured of it.

Take care.


----------



## Superstars (Jun 23, 2011)

How Naive can you people be?

A HERO OF THE SERIES IS AUTOMATICALLY THE SAVIOR


----------



## Sparky1012 (Jun 23, 2011)

Honestly we should've expected this. He's got an evil radar for pity's sake. Of course he's Ninja Jesus. xP If he dies, then he'll probably get resurrected and then the comparisons will be complete. 

Wait a second. Doesn't this mean that Madara is the Ninja Devil (i.e. darkness incarnate, embodiment of evil, etc.) and Sasuke is the Ninja Anti-Christ? O.o We'll get to see a Holy Ninja War for the ages. Can't wait lol


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

Superstars said:


> How Naive can you people be?
> 
> A HERO OF THE SERIES IS AUTOMATICALLY THE SAVIOR



Hero =/= savior.  Not in this context or in classic literary context.


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## Superstars (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> Hero =/= savior.  Not in this context or in classic literary context.



 A HERO SAVES THE DAY...Which is what shounen does in context.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

Superstars said:


> A HERO SAVES THE DAY...Which is what shounen does in context.



Then why isn't hero being used?

I have never seen the shonen stars use the moniker "savior" nearly as much as Naruto, and when coupled with this destiny/symbolism crap it only gets cheesier and more out of touch with what was his potential in Part 1.

He's not the God damn Phoenix.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

primary colours123 said:


> Sorry, I linked the wrong page there.
> Correct one: Link removed
> He doesn't look even a bit underconfident there. He is not even giving a "I'll try my best." or a "What if..." though there. While it is good, not to be in doubts, when the outcome of tyour action is the survival of the whole world, one should just stop, reflect and think the best possible way out, rather than rushing in with overconfidence, because you are "supposed to" save the world.
> My opinion differs from yours, but sorry, I can't see a trace of the attitude you are portraying for him.



That's just confidence based on various developments speaking by following a model, not mere self-importance.

Everything you just said was already done before Naruto had such confidence  he believes in finding a way by not giving up. That why he has utter confidence in himself. you don't achieve great things with swaying convinction. You actually have to be utterly irrational sometimes. It's not an inferior to a realistic outlook that reveres cold calculation. If one just looks at the calculation they can't surpass what they expect as an outcome, cos they won't take the step further. If Naruto let the war go on just in order to protect his life, Konoha could lose anyway. You think it's worth that risk for someone like Naruto? People can't just watch people they care about die just because they happen to be what the world depends on. The world has no right to ask that of anyone. Naruto doesn't murder his feelings for whatever jack shit called rationality, that's why he's ever been competent at all.



> I seriously don't know much about Christianity, so I have no idea exactly what people are finding offensive, and therefore I really can't and won't judge. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Moreover, as I said in my first post, even if the suns are deliberately portrayed as halos, _I _don't find offensive intent in it.
> 
> But er... about your allusion... eh.. TooMuchInfo.


Uh no, if you're reading a manga about characters that murder for a living you have no standing to make moralistic affirmations about some halos  opinions can still suck ass.

I'm not really sure what you're alluding to.



> But while he is doing that for others, he should also take into account that others too want to do this for him, for keeping him safe. Just because he is the Savior his father trusted, doesn't mean something can not go horribly wrong. He should expect the best, but not be assured of it.
> 
> Take care.


yeah that's cool and all, until you know you can risk seeing your comrades dead anyway cos you were told you couldn't fight with them.


----------



## ZiharkXVI (Jun 23, 2011)

I must admit I have my doubts about the symbolism, but its difficult to argue with the savior stuff.


----------



## KyuubiFan (Jun 23, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> At this point, the only thing that can make me satisfied is to see Naruto actually screw up things for the Alliance, his own actions at the war cause some of his friends die, realize he actually fucked things instead of making them better to then start fixing the shit. I'm tired of his fucking messiah complex. Just let him get a reality check and then you can have him save the world.



I have a proposal to you and anyone else, who's fed up with him. Join us:


----------



## Naruts (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> Yes.  I interpreted this as such, as well, even if it wasn't actually Christian themed.
> _*
> My whole beef was the big illustration of the "savior" and his typical Talk no Jutsu that somehow hypnotizes people...rational people.*_



What's funny is the, _*"When has Naruto ever been rational?"*_

lol
Naruto fits the Destiny and Savior role.
Let's see.

Crazy.
Check.

Makes extraordinary and bold statements backed with no proof or evidence.
Check.

Irrational.
Check.

Illogical.
Check.

Believer.
Check.

Doesn't give a shit about what others say because he does what he needs to do.
Check.

Yep. Role befitted ever since day 1.
Dattebayo.
You know what I mean..?


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

Naruto isn't as illogical as people paint him to be, he just wants to be a different kind of ninja. it's called idealism, not irrationality...


----------



## C-Moon (Jun 23, 2011)

Never put your faith into someone who was a "c" student on his best day to tackle complex issues.


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## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Naruto isn't as illogical as people paint him to be, he just wants to be a different kind of ninja. it's called idealism, not irrationality...



If he's the Plato, then I'm the Aristotle.

Or at least Shikamaru is...


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Naruto isn't as illogical as people paint him to be, he just wants to be a different kind of ninja. it's called idealism, not irrationality...



No, it's called insanity.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> If he's the Plato, then I'm the Aristotle.
> 
> Or at least Shikamaru is...



uhm what. all big words have a common usage, and Naruto clearly falls under it.



Seto Kaiba said:


> No, it's called insanity.



to not sit down and watch with his rikudou hax?

yeah, that's totally insane.


----------



## JH24 (Jun 23, 2011)

You know, intended or not, I got a somewhat uneasy feeling looking at the picture of Naruto as posted in the OP. I'm not sure if I like the direction Naruto's character development has taken. I always loved seeing Naruto's character grow and becoming more mature, but in this chapter they went way overboard with the "savior" business IMHO.


I tried, I really tried, but I just can't seem to like this. There's just something that rubs me the wrong way about this chapter. 


Maybe it will grow on me.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> uhm what. all big words have a common usage, and Naruto clearly falls under it.



_School of Athens_ by Raphael.

It featured the center of Plato pointing up symbolizing the ideal while Aristotle has a hand with palm flat to the Earth symbolizing a sort of empirical and realistic approach.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jun 23, 2011)

> to not sit down and watch with his rikudou hax?
> 
> yeah, that's totally insane.



I'm referring to his general mindset.


----------



## Addy (Jun 23, 2011)

Naruts said:


> What's funny is the, _*"When has Naruto ever been rational?"*_
> 
> lol
> Naruto fits the Destiny and Savior role.
> ...


that's just generic shounen hero stuff. 

you forgot to add "brain washes people" 

at least old so called "saviors" came in a simpler time. people would beleive anything but this is supposed to be set up in a modern time yet most of the shit naruto says may be believed in an era that is hundreds of years dead. not to mention that some characters even express this modern thinking like pain in the immortal arc and konoha's attempts for peace and yet people like raikage and nagato seem to be brainwashed by religious stuff that is bassed on a toad? 

and no offense, you just labeled every religion with your own irrationalities. these so called "saviors" came in different times were there were people thought differently. proof of that is how religions evolved too. some faster then other but they did. for example, christianity did not allow at one point plays, or normal people to read the bible and it changed were it ironically was the once who revived plays after banning them. this is just an example out of my head but you can't just apply your way of thinking on every generation and deem it irrational or else why so many followed back then if it is?.

im not a religious guy but i at least know that.


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> _School of Athens_ by Raphael.
> 
> It featured the center of Plato pointing up symbolizing the ideal while Aristotle has a hand with palm flat to the Earth symbolizing a sort of empirical and realistic approach.



Oh I see. Well Plato's influence of Christian philosophy is enormous for a reason 



Seto Kaiba said:


> I'm referring to his general mindset.



Sasuke right?  Naruto's a timocratic soul.

edit: No wait maybe that's Sasuke. plato terms are confusing.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jun 23, 2011)

Thor said:


> Aslan is meant to be an allegory of Jesus.





izzyisozaki said:


> Chronicles of Narnia is meant to be a Christian allegory you know....
> 
> and no.



My bad, I never had the time to read the books but instead some small summaries about it and the Aslan thing.



Mael said:


> They shouldn't be...they're parents.



Tell that to someone whose only memory he has of his parents is protecting him from a big and dangerous demon while saving a village at the same time. Hard to blame Naruto for thinking of them as such in that case, but then again, its not strange to find kids that think the world of his parental figures.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> Oh I see. Well Plato's influence of Christian philosophy is enormous for a reason.



You're enormous. ..........


----------



## izzyisozaki (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> You're enormous. ..........





I will penetrate you


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> I will penetrate you



Bring it.


----------



## Superstars (Jun 23, 2011)

Mael said:


> Then why isn't hero being used?
> 
> I have never seen the shonen stars use the moniker "savior" nearly as much as Naruto, and when coupled with this destiny/symbolism crap it only gets cheesier and more out of touch with what was his potential in Part 1.
> 
> He's not the God damn Phoenix.


No, he's the hero who comes in and saves people.


----------



## Mael (Jun 23, 2011)

Superstars said:


> No, he's the hero who comes in and saves people.



Yeah...that's why he should be just referred to as "hero" instead of giving it an almost religious status to his "savior" moniker people (and himself) keeps on plugging.


----------



## Soca (Jun 24, 2011)

I honestly think kishi is going through some type of emotional breakdown and writing throughout the story. I dunno it's probably just me ...


----------



## Grand Cross (Jun 24, 2011)

Marcelle said:


> I honestly think kishi is going through some type of emotional breakdown and writing throughout the story. I dunno it's probably just me ...



I feel this way as well. None of this Narutoism or Cycle of Hatred thing was even hinted at in Part 1 or early Part 2.


----------



## Raiden (Jun 24, 2011)

Well, he doesn't necessarily write everything he believes. Imagine if Bee, for example, gets captured and killed. Naruto won't feel like a savior then.

Nevertheless, this chapter did surprise me. You would think that the Raikage wouldn't entrust his dreams to another person but instead, warn anyone comparable to Minato not to think too highly of themselves- to dream big but be pragmatic. It was very cliche. I understand Naruto is shounen but man that was weird. Even for this manga.


----------



## Superstars (Jun 24, 2011)

Mael said:


> Yeah...that's why he should be just referred to as "hero" instead of giving it an almost religious status to his "savior" moniker people (and himself) keeps on plugging.



Put your ignorance and bias sunglasses away for a sec and understand that the savior moniker is to bring peace to the world. That's what HEROES do.


----------



## Raiden (Jun 24, 2011)

True. 

What threw me off was Naruto referring himself as the "savior" so nonchalantly. 
I mean gosh dont be so modest about it


----------



## LS20 (Jun 24, 2011)

Hero's protect the people they care about and STOP the end of the world...not bring peace to it like a messiah (and this wasn't even possible in the bible). There will always be threats. THAT'S what heroes do.

Heroes can't alter human nature. If anything that will certain stretches of peace.


----------



## Superstars (Jun 24, 2011)

LS20 said:


> Hero's protect the people they care about and STOP the end of the world...not bring peace to it like a messiah (and this wasn't even possible in the bible). There will always be threats. THAT'S what heroes do.
> 
> Heroes can't alter human nature.


Are you kidding me? Did you see the characters Naruto changed through out the course of the series?  Have you read any Shounen Jump before? FYI Jesus Christ the Lord did not come to bring peace to the world.


----------



## LS20 (Jun 24, 2011)

So you're suggesting that Naruto is going to change an entire world full of people to all play nice and get along with no conflict anymore? And that would be believable or acceptabe in any way? Not to mention good writing? The shonen jump that I have read outside of Naruto never depicted this.


----------



## JH24 (Jun 24, 2011)

LS20 said:


> So you're suggesting that Naruto is going to change an entire world full of people to all play nice and get along with no conflict anymore? And that would be believable or acceptabe in any way? Not to mention good writing? The shonen jump that I have read outside of Naruto never depicted this.




I'm afraid it could be going that way. It was the difference IIRC between Naruto and Nagato. 

Nagato didn't have any faith in humanity and believed they were incapable of changing, so he wanted to use these Bijuu to prevent wars and create temporary peace. I can't shake the feeling Naruto really wants to change the people in their hearts and create peace in a permanent way.


Madara also wants peace, but (correct me if I'm wrong) by mind-controlling people through his will. 



I just hope this "savior" business won't get too far. I would love to see Naruto saving and changing the world, I really really do. But not by any means of portraying himself as the "savior" IMHO and as a result (intended or unintended) creating a large group of followers who would almost worship him.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Jun 24, 2011)

In my opinion, Naruto being so cocky about being the 'destined child' is a bit too in your face and it reveals too much about how the story will end. If I was Kishimoto, I would have Naruto pay little attention to this prophecy and I would have him say things that the fans know and love. His confidence should come from within like it did before, it shouldn't be based on some prophecy from someone who's never been wrong. Where's the fun in that? Rather than brag about being the child of prophecy, Naruto should brag about being the future hokage like he always has. That would be fun and THAT would be NARUTO. I don't know what this crap that I'm reading is, but when's the last time Naruto has even mentioned being hokage? From chapter 430 on we all know Naruto was strong enough to be hokage, but I think there should be at least some people in the shinobi world that will remain stronger than Naruto until the end. At this point he is just too far above everyone else and his dream of being hokage seems ridiculous because Naruto has already proven himself to be the strongest shinobi in his village over 100 chapters ago. 

From that point on the story has not been at all suspenseful. Then, Naruto got another haxx addition to his powers that just seemed unnecessary in my eyes. The sense of danger present at the beginning of part 2 with Naruto being a target of an organization of strong criminals is completely gone. And if you think about it, Naruto has only had 1 proper 1-on-1 fight in all of part 2!! I wouldn't mind him being the strongest in the story at this point had he engaged in more combat and boosted is strength slowly that way, but jesus, have him earn it a little bit.


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## zuul (Jun 24, 2011)

Superstars said:


> Are you kidding me? Did you see the characters Naruto changed through out the course of the series?  Have you read any Shounen Jump before? FYI Jesus Christ the Lord did not come to bring peace to the world.



Yep even Jesus, the supposed son of God wasn't able to bring peace to the world. But nardo can.

It's nothing comparable to other shounen protagonist. A guy like Kenshin has the humble and realistic goal to protect the people around him, not change the world. Well he had this pretention as a teen but actually learnt better after a hard reality check.



JH24 said:


> I just hope this "savior" business won't get too far. I would love to see Naruto saving and changing the world, I really really do. But not by any means of portraying himself as the "savior" IMHO and as a result (intended or unintended) creating a large group of followers who would almost worship him.



It's already the case.


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## Summers (Jun 24, 2011)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> In my opinion, Naruto being so cocky about being the 'destined child' is a bit too in your face and it reveals too much about how the story will end. If I was Kishimoto, I would have Naruto pay little attention to this prophecy and I would have him say things that the fans know and love. His confidence should come from within like it did before, it shouldn't be based on some prophecy from someone who's never been wrong. Where's the fun in that? Rather than brag about being the child of prophecy, Naruto should brag about being the future hokage like he always has. That would be fun and THAT would be NARUTO. I don't know what this crap that I'm reading is, but when's the last time Naruto has even mentioned being hokage? From chapter 430 on we all know Naruto was strong enough to be hokage, but I think there should be at least some people in the shinobi world that will remain stronger than Naruto until the end. At this point he is just too far above everyone else and his dream of being hokage seems ridiculous because Naruto has already proven himself to be the strongest shinobi in his village over 100 chapters ago.
> 
> From that point on the story has not been at all suspenseful. Then, Naruto got another haxx addition to his powers that just seemed unnecessary in my eyes. The sense of danger present at the beginning of part 2 with Naruto being a target of an organization of strong criminals is completely gone. And if you think about it, Naruto has only had 1 proper 1-on-1 fight in all of part 2!! I wouldn't mind him being the strongest in the story at this point had he engaged in more combat and boosted is strength slowly that way, but jesus, have him earn it a little bit.



The last time he talked about being Hokage was after Kushina went away. It wast long ago, he always says he is going to be Hokage and what he needs to do to accomplish it. 

People just think he doesn't because the prophecy stuff is added. I knew it was going to happen sometime, chosen ones and prophecy stuff is trope of manga's like this.
It is upsetting that Naruto hasn't got any real fights and kishi has treated him as a "just there" character battle wise.

I think the reason Kishi is laying on the prophecy stuff so thickly is so that we can get trolled and told that its all bullshit, that the frog was manipulating people into creating a future he wanted(peace) and the chosen one is just something he made up, or that Madara messed with the frogs mind.

If that happens I would love for Naruto to be like "I know" and when asked why? he went along with it he will say "because I believe in myself and I was chosen by the people I care about"


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 24, 2011)

You know, after reading some of the responses in this thread again, I still know that Kishimoto fails miserably at symbolism and decent character development, but it seems to me like some of the biggest complainers are Uchiha fans. Coincidence....?

It sounds like they don't appreciate competition with the Uchiha clan for god status. It's like some retarded Highlander garbage or something...."There can be ONLY ONE, AND IT MUST BE AN UCHIHA, THAT IS, ONE UCHIHA MADARA OR ONE UCHIHA SASKUE......all other applicants for god-mode will be shunned and rejected."


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 24, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> You know, after reading some of the responses in this thread again, I still know that Kishimoto fails miserably at symbolism and decent character development, but it seems to me like some of the biggest complainers are Uchiha fans. Coincidence....?
> 
> It sounds like they don't appreciate competition with the Uchiha clan for god status. It's like some retarded Highlander garbage or something...."There can be ONLY ONE, AND IT MUST BE AN UCHIHA, THAT IS, ONE UCHIHA MADARA OR ONE UCHIHA SASKUE......all other applicants for god-mode will be shunned and rejected."



Lol

"Oh some people here might be Uchiha fans so allow me to take the time to make a poor assessment about Uchiha fans in general "

Sasuke fans must really want him to be the Gary Stu destined saviour of the world and rant on and on about it and his two new gods, who are people he never met until recently for 10 minutes or less


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 24, 2011)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> Lol
> 
> "Oh some people here might be Uchiha fans so allow me to take the time to make a poor assessment about Uchiha fans in general "
> 
> Sasuke fans must really want him to be the Gary Stu destined saviour of the world and rant on and on about it and his two new gods, who are people he never met until recently for 10 minutes or less


Oh you. You know how tempting it is to take a pot-shot at repeat whiners on NF. Still though, it is amusing to see Uchiha fans get all hissy-pissy about this child of destiny crap....like it was funny to see their reactions when Kabuto literally just came out of nowhere to team up with Madara because he suddenly became THAT fucking strong. Well shucks, I guess Madara and Sasuke are no longer the two new gods of the shinobi world.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jun 24, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> Oh you. You know how tempting it is to take a pot-shot at repeat whiners on NF. Still though, it is amusing to see Uchiha fans get all hissy-pissy about this child of destiny crap....like it was funny to see their reactions when Kabuto literally just came out of nowhere to team up with Madara because he suddently became THAT fucking strong.



Once again, implying only Uchiha fans would dislike this and for some reason, they're childish because of it. Oh well, enjoy away i guess.
Also, i never really saw any Uchiha fan complaining about Kabuto becoming strong...


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## zuul (Jun 24, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> Oh you. You know how tempting it is to take a pot-shot at repeat whiners on NF. Still though, it is amusing to see Uchiha fans get all hissy-pissy about this child of destiny crap....like it was funny to see their reactions when Kabuto literally just came out of nowhere to team up with Madara because he suddenly became THAT fucking strong. Well shucks, I guess Madara and Sasuke are no longer the two new gods of the shinobi world.



Do you really think all Uchiha fans apreciate the ridiculous sharingan hax. I certainly don't.


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## Addy (Jun 24, 2011)

Poo Bear said:


> LOL laugh, and people say Sasuke is jesus.


sasuke is the anti-jesus......... for now


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## Ayana (Jun 24, 2011)

Aleph-1 said:


> You know, after reading some of the responses in this thread again, I still know that Kishimoto fails miserably at symbolism and decent character development, but it seems to me like some of the biggest complainers are Uchiha fans. Coincidence....?



I complain and I am not a fan of the Uchiha clan.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 24, 2011)

Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_

Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!

Fodder: _Well, your whole plan of peace could leave a lot of people unemployed, and besides as I'm sure you know, economic strife is the cause of many conflicts in the world!_

Naruto: ....

Fodder: _So, which models will you propose to mitigate povery, starvation, and employment? Keeping the populace happy and healthy, and preventing a horrible and violent uprise by the impoverished?_

Naruto: I-I-I...I'm the savior! Just believe in me.

Fodder: _That's fine and dandy but none of that puts food on my table! So, what are your economic credentials? Which professor did you study under?_

Naruto: ...I...I...MOTHER, FATHER!!!


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## Kuromaku (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_
> 
> Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!
> 
> ...




Bah!  As a future politician, Naruto is aware of the fact that as soon as someone asks you a question you can't answer, simply accuse them of playing for the other side.  That, and waving flags to look patriotic.


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## Mael (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_
> 
> Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!
> 
> ...



Sounds like a Tea Party candidate.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_
> 
> Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!
> 
> ...



If somebody actually grilled Naruto about being a leader of a nation he probably wouldn't want to be hokage anymore. 



Mael said:


> Sounds like a Tea Party candidate.


If Naruto responds to tough questions this way, he'll simply say "Well uh, I know all about history and stuff, and if you disagree with me then you are wrong, and a cog in the "lamestream" media machine. Trust me when I say I know how to run a nation of peoples, goddamnit!"  




•Sharingan Squid• said:


> Also, i never really saw any Uchiha fan complaining about Kabuto becoming strong...


There were plenty of people who were mad about the fact that Kabuto rose in power so quickly...


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## izzyisozaki (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_
> 
> Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!
> 
> ...



he may just change the system of government (now it's an aristocracy that works as a military goverment via shinobi). there may always be minor conflict and all but peace can have larger implications politically. Japan also had this political trasformation - they were warriors and now they are semi-pacifists after what they loss.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_
> 
> Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!
> 
> ...



just needed a little fix at the end


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## Mael (Jun 24, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> he may just change the system of government (now it's an aristocracy that works as a military goverment via shinobi). there may always be minor conflict and all but peace can have larger implications politically. Japan also had this political trasformation - they were warriors and now they are semi-pacifists after what they loss.



Just took two big bombs to drive the point home. 

Teenage idealists make not great leaders, tbh.


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## Addy (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_
> 
> Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!
> 
> ...



reminds me obama for some strange reason


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## Addy (Jun 24, 2011)

polskanaruto said:


> *naruto is naruto, and naruto in part 2 is naruto too  naruto is naruto*



uhm 

peter piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.


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## izzyisozaki (Jun 24, 2011)

wait I have a question. In the chapter isn't it implied that in fact Minato was the savior and that he's still alive in Naruto? To me this just shows Naruto has made it his task because of what he learned from his father. In order to prevent a world disaster and allow Naruto to meet his mother directly, Minato made that controversial decision. He literally made it so that the world could have a chance against Madara from his intuition from fighting him, not only the prophecy, which he knows can only work if Naruto dominates the power of the Kyuubi. So basically there's more of a rational reasoning behind it, mostly thanks to Minato. That could be why the parents are symbolized as suns which shine on/are in Naruto. I think the savior thing works more in Minato's direction. Since Naruto has always been foreshadowed to surpass him he has simply turned into his legacy, which is normal since he's his son...he obviously took these expectations upon himself with all the hype that was given to it by Jiraiya, his parents, the Frog Co. etc.


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## FearTear (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Fodder: _So Naruto, what's your economic model for the future? Do you have any plans on revolutionizing fishery, livestock, and agriculture?_
> 
> Naruto: What? I'm here to bring peace to the world!
> 
> ...



Fixed 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Also, for those who missed it here's the poster of his campaign


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## Addy (Jun 24, 2011)

izzyisozaki said:


> wait I have a question. In the chapter isn't it implied that in fact Minato was the savior and that he's still alive in Naruto? To me this just shows Naruto has made it his task because of what he learned from his father. In order to prevent a world disaster and allow Naruto to meet his mother directly, Minato made that controversial decision.* He literally made it so that the world could have a chance against Madara from his intuition from fighting him, not only the prophecy,* which he knows can only work if Naruto dominates the power of the Kyuubi. So basically there's more of a rational reasoning behind it, mostly thanks to Minato. That could be why the parents are symbolized as suns which shine on/are in Naruto. I think the savior thing works more in Minato's direction. Since Naruto has always been foreshadowed to surpass him he has simply turned into his legacy, which is normal since he's his son...he obviously took these expectations upon himself with all the hype that was given to it by Jiraiya, his parents, the Frog Co. etc.



actually, he said that "i beleive naruto is the child of prophecy and madara is the danger he must fight"(i think right before he seals kyuubi and explains to kushina why). the recent chapter implied even more on that idea that it was the prophecy that motivated him by calling him the savior more than once and then it turns out to be his son. he did give the world a fighting chance against madara but it was heavily implied that he was *at least mainly *motivated by the prophecy. he even answers naruto "i did it because i beleive in you".

at the end, it was luck that naruto met iruke, and jiraya.

think about it. why seal it in naruto and not expect madara to get him the next day/or the same minute? (aside from PNJ) he absolutely believed in naruto that he will over come those odds........... even if he is a defenseless baby


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 24, 2011)

FearTear said:


> Fixed
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



lmfao, I should print this out and make a sign out of it, then display it out on my front yard for everyone to see on July 4th.


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## Kuromaku (Jun 24, 2011)

Addy said:


> actually, he said that "i beleive naruto is the child of prophecy and madara is the danger he must fight"(i think right before he seals kyuubi and explains to kushina why). the recent chapter implied even more on that idea that it was the prophecy that motivated him by calling him the savior more than once and then it turns out to be his son. he did give the world a fighting chance against madara but it was heavily implied that he was *at least mainly *motivated by the prophecy. he even answers naruto "i did it because i beleive in you".
> 
> at the end, it was *luck* that naruto met iruke, and jiraya.
> 
> think about it. why seal it in naruto and not expect madara to get him the next day/or the same minute? (aside from PNJ) he absolutely believed in naruto that he will over come those odds........... even if he is a defenseless baby



Luck or fate?  Even Nagato implies that every thing that happened up to that point was part of the real God's (Kishimoto's) plan, that is, fate, in his final speech.


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## Addy (Jun 24, 2011)

Kuromaku said:


> Luck or fate?  Even Nagato implies that every thing that happened up to that point was part of the real God's (Kishimoto's) plan, that is, fate, in his final speech.



i know it's fate but i was replying to minato's decision being motivated by reasonable actions and not the prophecy.(at least mainly motivated by the prophecy)


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## auem (Jun 24, 2011)

Addy said:


> uhm
> 
> peter piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.


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## auem (Jun 24, 2011)

it doesn't need anything more than primary school intellect to see that day by day,chapter by chapter,the author is clutching to cheap gimmick and show-off;instead of solid plotline...
it's time people should stop giving pathetic excuse for author...this manga is running for 12 years and perhaps at it's last leg...if you can't criticize now then you are not honest reader...


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## Addy (Jun 24, 2011)

auem said:


>



he said naruto's name 6 times in one sentence. i honestly didn't know what to say


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## Superstars (Jun 24, 2011)

zuul said:


> Yep even Jesus, the supposed son of God wasn't able to bring peace to the world. But nardo can.
> 
> It's nothing comparable to other shounen protagonist. A guy like Kenshin has the humble and realistic goal to protect the people around him, not change the world. Well he had this pretention as a teen but actually learnt better after a hard reality check.



1. Kenshin isn't in a world war with an oppurtunity with all the world leaders on his side like Naruto to make that impact. 
2. Jesus goal was NOT to bring peace to the world.


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## auem (Jun 24, 2011)

Superstars said:


> 1. Kenshin isn't in a world war with an oppurtunity with *all the world leader*s on his side like Naruto to make that impact.
> 2. Jesus goal was NOT to bring peace to the world.


honestly,in size,kenshin's world(whole japan) was not that smaller than the flat 'world' where naruto preaches...


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## Mael (Jun 24, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Holy shit. You're right. I mean just look at the paragraph below, it's fucking terrible!



Ultrafans tend to do that.


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Jun 24, 2011)

I think even Naruto (the character) fans like myself can admit that this whole child of prophecy/destiny bullshit is unbelievably corny, cheesy, and ultimately unnecessary. It was one thing when Jiraiya and Minato entrusted Naruto to find an "answer" to world peace, but the whole savior complex is just TOO much .


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## ~M~ (Jun 25, 2011)

This manga has always been about Jesus, deal with it


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## Mael (Jun 25, 2011)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> I think even Naruto (the character) fans like myself can admit that this whole child of prophecy/destiny bullshit is unbelievably corny, cheesy, and ultimately unnecessary. It was one thing when Jiraiya and Minato entrusted Naruto to find an "answer" to world peace, but the whole savior complex is just TOO much .



Thank you.  It's overhyped.  The GEoM didn't get this much wank.



~M~ said:


> This manga has always been about Jesus, deal with it


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## Borel (Jun 25, 2011)

All this prophecy stuff is a blatant "fuck you" to the themes of Part 1... apparently Kishi had a spiritual epiphany between parts 1 and 2.


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## FearTear (Jun 25, 2011)

How to summarize the prophecy affair:


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## Superstars (Jun 25, 2011)

auem said:


> honestly,in size,kenshin's world(whole japan) was not that smaller than the flat 'world' where naruto preaches...



Sigh, Kenshin's world was Japan....Naruto literally has the entire shinobi world.


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## LS20 (Jun 25, 2011)

FearTear said:


> How to summarize the prophecy affair:



I didn't get this at first, but when I finally understood...seriously, I think I laughed for over 2 or 3 minutes at this. Thanks man I needed that, you just completely woke me up for the day.


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## Addy (Jun 25, 2011)

NarutoIzDaMan said:


> I think even Naruto (the character) fans like myself can admit that this whole child of prophecy/destiny bullshit is unbelievably corny, cheesy, and ultimately unnecessary. It was one thing when Jiraiya and Minato entrusted Naruto to find an "answer" to world peace, but the whole savior complex is just TOO much .



it wouldn't be so bad if i was something extra to naruto's character. but now, everything naruto does is motivated by it.


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## Yuna (Jun 25, 2011)

Seriously, how hard can it be to grasp the concept that "Your destiny is set at birth. You cannot fight it no matter how hard you try." and "Hey, I just heard this prophecy that I will go on to do stuff that perfectly aligns with my plans, values and morals. I guess I'll just keep on doing what I've been doing all along!" aren't the same values?

Naruto's goals didn't really change drastically due to the prophecy or his parents' legacy. The prophecy doesn't go against anything Naruto believes in. When someone foretells of a prophecy of you doing exactly what you're trying to do, a not-crazy person would just go "Oh, great. That means I'll probably succeed!" and keep working towards their ultimate endgame goal.

That's the equivalent of someone telling Brad Pitt at age 16 or whatever that yes, he will one day become a world famous actor, beloved by many, filthy rich, considered at times the sexiest man alive, marry a woman considered at times to be the sexiest woman alive, a bankable star and lead a just all-around perfect life. And if he went "Great!" and kept on pursuing his acting career, people were to admonish him and go "What a fucking twat!".

Seriously, when a prophecy foretells that you are destined to succeed in what you're working hard to achieve, you go "Ouh, neat!" and then keep on trucking.


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## Aleph-1 (Jun 25, 2011)

^+Rep for truth.


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## zuul (Jun 26, 2011)

Superstars said:


> 1. Kenshin isn't in a world war with an oppurtunity with all the world leaders on his side like Naruto to make that impact.
> 2. Jesus goal was NOT to bring peace to the world.



1. Because Kenshin is rtealistic enough. In a reatlistic settling we won't see the world leaders entrusting the palestino Israelian peace program, for example, to a slightly retarded loud mouth teen.

2. Because even Jesus is more down to earth than the over-the-top character that is Naruto.


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## Mael (Jun 27, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Seriously, how hard can it be to grasp the concept that "Your destiny is set at birth. You cannot fight it no matter how hard you try." and "Hey, I just heard this prophecy that I will go on to do stuff that perfectly aligns with my plans, values and morals. I guess I'll just keep on doing what I've been doing all along!" aren't the same values?
> 
> Naruto's goals didn't really change drastically due to the prophecy or his parents' legacy. The prophecy doesn't go against anything Naruto believes in. When someone foretells of a prophecy of you doing exactly what you're trying to do, a not-crazy person would just go "Oh, great. That means I'll probably succeed!" and keep working towards their ultimate endgame goal.
> 
> ...



Then how about hiring better writers to not make it look like the cheesiest thing out there since a fucking roll of Camembert?


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## Aldric (Jun 27, 2011)

Don't you dare talk shit about camembert


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 27, 2011)

And so the thread proves it has been going on for far too long.

Locking.


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