# Is Sasori overrated?



## Grimsley (Mar 11, 2015)

The overall judgement here is that Sasori is one of Akatsuki's elite and is often placed above the likes of Deidara and Konan. Yet it's arguable that both Deidara and Konan can put Sasori down. 

Yes he has some really flashy moves but how effective are they really against the rest of Akatsuki?

vs Deidara: why can't deidara just fly out of range and just blow him up with a C3? Yes that's OC for him but it's possible. 

vs Konan: how would puppets/poisons hurt Konan in her angel form? What stops Konan from flying out of range and blowing him up with multiple explosive clones? 

vs Kisame: how does Sasori and his puppets function in a water dome? 

He beats the weakest (Kakuzu/Hidan/Zetsu) but I just find it hard to believe he can beat the rest of Akatsuki.


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## Grimsley (Mar 11, 2015)

My ranking of Akatsuki:

Obito
Pain 
Itachi
Orochimaru 
Kisame/Konan
Deidara
Sasori/Kakuzu 
Hidan 
Zetsu


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## Grimsley (Mar 11, 2015)

For the fact that she hasn't shown much feat? Please explain how she's more overrated than Sasori.


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## ARGUS (Mar 11, 2015)

The more you look into sasori or konan. The weaker they seem
Overall for akatsuki it's 
1. Obito
2. Nagato
3. Itachi
4. Kisame
5. Kakuzu 
6. Deidara 
7. Sasori
8. Konan
9. Hidan 
10. Zetsu


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## Deer Lord (Mar 11, 2015)

Overrated? if anything he's underrated.
His posions are down right OP.


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## Grimsley (Mar 11, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> The more you look into sasori or konan. The weaker they seem
> Overall for akatsuki it's
> 1. Obito
> 2. Nagato
> ...



That's a nice opinion you have there. 
Kakuzu that high up in the ladder? Please, he got fooled by a Naruto Clone.


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## Bonly (Mar 11, 2015)

Overall wise I wouldn't say he's to overrated by the majority of people. He beat the a single scratch is enough to kill someone in three days as well as start to paralyze them shortly after being hit, managed to beat the strongest Kazekage, Deidara admitted Sasori was the stronger of the two, can make human puppets which can still use their chakra and jutsu, has 298 puppets ready to use, and blah blah blah you get the point. Though Sasori would seemed to be more so underrated at times rather then overrated due to him losing to Sakura and Chiyo at the start of part two which is sad since they have a person who knew a good deal about him and his tricks as well as came with pre made antidotes and what not.

But if we're throwing in Akatsuki ranking in as well then I'd rank them as 

Orochi 
Obito
Nagato
Six paths of Pain(if we don't wanna include Nagato himself)
Itachi
Kisame/Konan/Zetsu
Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu
Hidan


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 11, 2015)

He is only overrated when someone tries to elevate him to a speed tier he is not on i guess. With sasori showings no one can say he is even near being able to take on speedsters.

Besides that i guess people rate him well despite maybe a little iron sand wank here and there(like hyping up it's defensive properties).


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 11, 2015)

Any shinobi who can take over/wipe out an entire country is not overrated.


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2015)

It's odd people think Sasori can beat kakuzu 
Worse that konan isn't the second weakest and by a good gap 
Sasori sprays her with statesu and outlast her casually


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 11, 2015)

The Art Duo is actually underrated, while the Immortal Duo is overrated as fuck.


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## Alucardemi (Mar 11, 2015)

Sasori killed the strongest Sandaime and then made that guy his puppet.

Not alot of Akatsuki members have Kage kills under their belts. Fighting Sasori itself is a three-stage chore if you're around his level, and if he gets a scratch on you, you'd be dead. Deidara himself, an egomaniac, admitted inferiority to the guy.

If anything, he's underrated. Both him and Deidara.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 11, 2015)

I think it's more that Deidara's underrated. His c4 clones and exploding clones (with him doton-ing underground) are retardedly powerful and could defeat some high tiers easily.

Konan perhaps to a lesser extent, as her explosive tag generation speed isn't really known. Sasori is considered Mid Akatsuki and around base Jiraiya's level, which is where he belongs.​


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## Ersa (Mar 12, 2015)

Sasori is superior to Deidara so that should be taken into account.

If anything Kakuzu is the most overrated because lolsurvivedHashiramabs.


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Mar 12, 2015)

I always put Sasori/Kakuzu/Kisame around the same general level of power in the middle of the Akatsuki. Below Obito, Nagato, and Itachi, but above Hidan, Deidara, and Konan. Hidan is pretty much confirmed trash. Konan is a beast with prep, but she lacks feats to really place her accurately anywhere. Deidara is really a mixed bag. For some characters, fighting him would be absolute hell, while others could rape him effortlessly. I mainly put him below those 3 though just based on how much younger and inexperienced he seems, plus Hebi Sasuke Mid diffing him.

All in all, my list would go like:

Obito
Nagato
Itachi

Kisame
Kakuzu
Sasori

Deidara
Konan
Hidan


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## StarWanderer (Mar 12, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Sasori is superior to Deidara so that should be taken into account.
> 
> If anything Kakuzu is the most overrated because lolsurvivedHashiramabs.



Kakuzu is not overrated. He has good feats.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 12, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> The overall judgement here is that Sasori is one of Akatsuki's elite and is often placed above the likes of Deidara and Konan. Yet it's arguable that both Deidara and Konan can put Sasori down.



Konan is not arguable at all, and Deidara himself said Sasori was probably better.



> Yes he has some really flashy moves but how effective are they really against the rest of Akatsuki?
> 
> vs Deidara: why can't deidara just fly out of range and just blow him up with a C3? Yes that's OC for him but it's possible.



Sasori's puppets can fly, and he has Satetsu; Deidara can't escape. Dropping bombs wouldn't work even if he could, because Sasori's puppets can intercept them.



> vs Konan: how would puppets/poisons hurt Konan in her angel form? What stops Konan from flying out of range and blowing him up with multiple explosive clones?



Sasori has flamethrowers and poison gas, as well.

His stamina also beats hers with plenty to spare.



> vs Kisame: how does Sasori and his puppets function in a water dome?



Probably not very well, but Kisame breathes through gills underwater and all of Sasori's poisoned shit would probably diffuse and contaminate the water.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

obito-kamui+better rinnegan usage
nagato-rinnegan
itachi-MS
kisame- beastness
sasori
deidara
kakuzu

*quite the gaaaaaaaap*
konan
hidan


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 12, 2015)

Overall, the fact that Pain and Kisame acknowledged Deidara's strength after his death while they didn't acknowledge Kakuzu leads me to believe Deidara is superior to Kakuzu overall, even though Kakuzu performs really well against Deidara.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

@narutoX28
while deidara might have more firepower and more haxx. in terms of who is harder to fight for the general public i think i would have to go with kakuzu. who has to be killed 5 times.


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## Ersa (Mar 12, 2015)

Wait what does Kakuzu have that's even impressive?

He failed to beat down non-MS Wind Arc Kakashi (who admitted inferiority to Base Naruto) even with the later's handicap of protecting Ino and Choji. He snuck up on Shikamaru (such feats ).

His immortality and moderately powerful elemental attacks will beat down most Jounin yes but I struggle to see many Kage having any issue with him. Even the weaker ones like Gaara and Mei should edge him out most of the time. Kakuzu simply never performed against anyone impressive.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 12, 2015)

> Wait what does Kakuzu have that's even impressive?
> 
> He failed to beat down non-MS Wind Arc Kakashi (who admitted inferiority to Base Naruto) even with the later's handicap of protecting Ino and Choji. He snuck up on Shikamaru (such feats ).
> 
> His immortality and moderately powerful elemental attacks will beat down most Jounin yes but I struggle to see many Kage having any issue with him. Even the weaker ones like Gaara and Mei should edge him out most of the time. Kakuzu simply never performed against anyone impressive.



He had a very impressive performance against Kakashi, to be honest.

And since when Gaara is a "weaker kage"? He is a strong Kage, actually.


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## Ersa (Mar 12, 2015)

Wind Arc no-MS Kakashi is not that impressive.

If he performed like that against say War Arc Kakashi then I'd grant you that but his feats were against a much weaker version.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 12, 2015)

He fought the Kakashi who wastes 2 Raikiri to save the 2 fodders (And for some reasons Sharingan can't figure out the masks inside his body ) not impressed. 

Besides Kakuzu was just a bad match for Kakashi mainly because of stamina issues at that point (to protect fodders). Doesn't make him any less fodder against a clone.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

@ersatz 
for one domu 
bar lightning techniques he is tanking your shit for the most part casually 

can attack from 5 different angles. even without domu, cutting attacks do shit to him 

he would murder mei with no difficulty at all 

as for gaara could be a tough match

@OP sasori is far from overrated. he has iron sand with poison in it. that alone puts him at mid kage. he just so happen to fight people with 3 antidotes and the worst opponent for him. A more experienced puppet master. In a normal situation he would have a much easier time against *anyone* over the likes of konan, kakuzu and deidara


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## Trojan (Mar 12, 2015)

For the most part Sasori is underrated. Everyone and their mothers dodge every single attack against him, and he for some reason can't scratch any character either just because Chiyo who are an expert in that fighting style made Sakura able to dodge his attacks.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 12, 2015)

Honestly, Kakuzu isn't all that fast and his final form is practically immobile which hurts Kakuzu a lot. The idea that Kakashi and Team 10 managed to dodge Kakuzu's masks, more specifically, his Futon enhanced Katon is embarrassing, especially when CS2 Hebi Sasuke had to sacrifice a wing in order to strike Deidara.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 12, 2015)

Kakuzu is a bad match for Sasori, but that doesn't mean Sasori can't beat him or isn't stronger in general.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

@narutox28
sasuke didnt have to sacrifice a wing to hit deidara. that was part of his plan 
of which he implied he had otherways of winning 

kakuzu last form is far from immobile where on earth did u get that from. it allows him to amaze huge amounts of chakra and even move quicker. it was never implied to be slower. it extends his reach. 

deidara would beat kakuzu the same way sasori should beat deidara and kakzu beats sasori

in direct match ups they seem very even however when it comes to difficulty at dealign with an opponent sasori is obviously more dangerous diue to the fact that he needs a scratch


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## Grimsley (Mar 12, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Konan is not arguable at all, and Deidara himself said Sasori was probably better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Konan is arguable - I've seen your posts around and you constantly demean the combat prowess of female characters, that's obviously your own issue but objectively Konan is a case that can be argued. 

*Konan*
1. A lot of nonsense is said by characters, doesn't mean it's true. Deidara said he wanted to kill Orochimaru himself implying that Deidara himself thought he could beat Orochimaru - doesn't mean it's true
2. Lol it's as if you think she's just going to stand there and get hit. Poison gas won't work in her paper form unless proven otherwise. And LOL flamethrower which couldn't even bypass rocks; she can easily fly out of range or just hide somewhere until the flames run out like here:

3. And how does that work? She used her chakra to blow up over 6 billion paper bombs and it was implied she still had enough chakra reserve for another attack. The difference in their stamina is not a large disparity like you're trying to make it out to be. 
4. If a Sakura punch smashed most of his puppets what makes you think large quantities of explosive paper clones can't destroy most of his puppets? She can formulate her attacks very quickly and can mix them with explosives that could easily blow up Sasori if used with discrete considering her paper can mimic even the ocean.

*Deidara*
1. This case has been argued before so I'm not going to bother but the fact that you implied his puppets could fly to the same range as Deidara on his bird is ludicrous. Sasori wouldn't even be able to see.

*Kisame*
1. And you think Kisame an expert in suiton jutsu can't cleanse or remove the poison? It'd have a distinct colour and Kisame would easily be able to get out of range or diffuse the poisoned water out of the dome. And even if he could just send out his sharks or from a distance use Daikōdan no Jutsu and sap his chakra. Kisame wins.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2015)

Sasori is in the bottom half of Akatsuki, he's only stronger than Hidan and Konan, and that's when the Kazekage puppet is already out. 

Deidara and Kakuzu are stronger than him, he wouldn't stand a chance against anyone above Kakuzu (Kisame, Itachi, Nagato, Obito). 

He and his attacks are too slow to be considered an Akatsuki Elite.


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## Grimsley (Mar 12, 2015)

Sasori and Kakuzu are interchangeable on my list.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

> jackieshann said:
> 
> 
> > Konan is arguable - I've seen your posts around and you constantly demean the combat prowess of female characters, that's obviously your own issue but objectively Konan is a case that can be argued.
> ...


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> Sasori and Kakuzu are interchangeable on my list.


Kakuzu was pressuring Sharingan Kakashi & Choji/Ino, and nearly killed Wind-arc KN0 Naruto after he saved them from a near point-blank blast. 

Defeats: 
Sasori~
1. Beaten by Sakura and emotional Chiyo holding back her 10-puppet combo until Red Army was brought out 
2. Beaten by Bloodlusted Sai and Kankuro

vs.

Defeats:
Kakuzu~
1. Beaten by Sharingan Kakashi, Wind-Arc Naruto, Yamato
2. BM War-arc Choji & various alliance members 

Hype: 
Sasori~ Conquered an unknown Country of unknown size, population and military opposition
Kakuzu~ Survived a battle against a man who could conquer the entire world by himself

From what I read the author clearly meant to showcase Kakuzu as superior. Feat/Arsenal-wise he most certainly is stronger than him, he would destroy Sasori with medium difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

@davizwiz kakuzu beats sasori only because he is tailor made to beat him

same way gai can 1 shot kisame. because he is tailor made to beat kisame


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## Grimsley (Mar 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> > not addressed to me but i think the only one who demeans female characters is kishi. konan got 1 shot by base jiriaya. no other akatsuki was shown to be so vulnerable. not like he cant beat some of them
> >
> >
> > i dont see why deidara cant win under certain conditions. C4 anyone?? deidara also wanted to kill itachi. again entirely possible under certain conditions. Ambush and what not. For orochimaru however deidara can very likely kill him. in the right scenario. he is purpose built to kill oro
> ...


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> ]1. Deidara is not beating Itachi, with your logic Deidara can beat Sasori in certain conditions such as flying above range and just dropping a c3 like he did to the sand village. He can beat a lot of people stronger than him in certain conditions.



yes he can beat sasori in certain conditions. because he isnt far weaker than sasori or itachi 
yes he can and that was my point. 



> 2. She can fly out of range, that's not speed that's flight, his puppets aren't that fast considering Sakura could keep up with some of them. You're making Konan out to be a slug which she definitely never has implied to be. One thing we do know is that she can integrate her attacks very fast, camouflage (transmute if we're using the official translations) and catch her opponents off guard like she did with a sharingan user.



sasori puppets can fly. you are aware of this right. she flies sasori follows 
not rocket science. catching tobi off guard was hardly done quickly. she had set up that exact stage and was waiting for him. hardly a quick set up 



> 3. Not this again... Her paper explosives only left her a few bruises and she regenerated while Obito lost an arm lol. It was a suicide move that she knew wouldn't work, she was literally just testing the waters. If anything it proved that she can reform her body from a physical attack.
> + She has full autonomy and control over paper bombs which will be incredibly hard to avoid especially if they are launched consistently on a target whom likes to stay stagnant initially like Hiruko Sasori; she can easily catch him off guard while he's busy focusing on her main body especially since Sasori likes to start in his Hiruko form. A few paper bombs will literally blow him up and end him, he's a lot more fragile than Konan.
> - Prove to me that the poison can spread to her skin based off at one strip of paper
> - Why did Jiraiya went to the effort to use toad oil to stick her paper body together if it was possible to harm her with physical attacks in paper form. Why was she still flying when she got hit by the oil?


[/QUOTE]

they did damage. that was my point. left bruises because obito wrapped most of the blast like he said. loool she wanted to kill herself. thats BS. where did she say she knew it wouldnt work. having a back up plan doesnt mean she didnt intend to die right there.

prove poison wont soak her paper when iron sand hits it. go on ill wait. u prove her paper is anti soak then we can talk 

konan got hurt by an explosion  

jiraiya hardly went through an effort to use toad oil. he spat it out and konan got caught by an attack with no notable speed.


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## Grimsley (Mar 12, 2015)

> they did damage. that was my point. left bruises because obito wrapped most of the blast like he said. loool she wanted to kill herself. thats BS. where did she say she knew it wouldnt work. having a back up plan doesnt mean she didnt intend to die right there.
> 
> prove poison wont soak her paper when iron sand hits it. go on ill wait. u prove her paper is anti soak then we can talk
> 
> ...



and my point is she regenerated yet obito lost an arm - they were both caught in the crossfire, it doesn't change anything  it was a suicide move hence:

'I'll drag you down to the next world with me' reading is a primary skill  she probably wanted to commit suicide and take him down with her because of her own guilt and the sin she has committed with Akatsuki - read between the lines, again another basic fundamental skill  

having a backup plan illustrates the fact that she considered the next step if it didn't work. did you ever do english or history at school? these are basic inferences.  

again you didn't answer my question. why did her former sensei not use a physical attack at the first go if you say physical attacks work on her in her paper form  inferences, inferences and inferences


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

what a sensitive idiot 
you claimed she knew it wouldnt work yet u say she tried to kill herself. i agreed to this so i dont get the 
she anticipated that however doesnt mean she wasnt trying to kill herself 

jiriaya used oil to troll her because he has oil. why waste time trying to troll her in another way??

 jiraiya used one slow as oil blast with no speed feats to catch konan. yh suuuure she is fast 

yet to prove how someone her paper cant get soaked. yet it can getting sticky with oil. i guess when she returns to her human form the poison would just vanish because this is ur wish right. 

sasori poison makes it hard to control chakra just so u know.


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## Grimsley (Mar 12, 2015)

> yes he can beat sasori in certain conditions. because he isnt far weaker than sasori or itachi
> yes he can and that was my point.
> 
> 
> ...



1. So your logic is that Deidara can beat anyone and everyone if given the right conditions? Konan can beat itachi and Kakuzu as well then if she's allowed the condition to prepare 6 billion paper bombs  

2. the flight of a puppet only reaches a certain height to what the puppet user can see. konan can just fly skyhigh and sasori ain't gonna see jackshit  

3. im pretty sure transmuting/preparing a few paper bomb explosives in her paper is a pre-requisite to her fighting style just like sasori with his prepared puppets. your double standards is appalling


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## Grimsley (Mar 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> what a sensitive idiot
> you claimed she knew it wouldnt work yet u say she tried to kill herself. i agreed to this so i dont get the
> she anticipated that however doesnt mean she wasnt trying to kill herself
> 
> ...



me or her? regardless if i had that much blood on my hands i probably wouldn't be able to live with myself either + she had no one else to live for, all her friends were dead. 

well the manga disagrees with you  she did try to kill herself and she anticipated the fact that there was a possibility it wouldn't work

avoiding the question like a politician. again i ask, why did he not go for the physical attack initially? he is her former sensei and knows the basics to her ability, so why did he resort to oiling her first instead of say a katon jutsu attack?  

if a part of her paper is soaked in the poison she doesnt have to reform with it, she can just get rid of it. she's a yang release user and has shown to make paper out of thin air


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @davizwiz kakuzu beats sasori only because he is tailor made to beat him
> 
> same way gai can 1 shot kisame. because he is tailor made to beat kisame


Not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean Domu makes him immune to poisoning? 

Hidan is immune to the effects of poisoning and Konan can't be poisoned by his weapons in her Paper Form. So... yeah. 

Anyone above Kakuzu has the potential to outright blitz him with a shunshin, making them clearly tailor made to defeat him. 

1. Kisame's Suitons flood his puppet army / Washes Poison off Iron Sand & Samehada renders Iron Sand motionless, blitzes him
2. Itachi's Ribcage Susano makes him immune to everything in Sasori's arsenal, blitzes him 
3. Obito phases through his entire arsenal, blitzes him
4. Nagato rejects all of his arsenal with ST, blitzes him

Kakuzu is faster, physically stronger, more durable, more versatile Ninjutsu, just as intelligent, more experienced, has stronger mid-long range techniques, is also immortal and can also fight as long as Sasori. The tailor made to defeat him doesn't really have anything to do with it, Kakuzu is an all-around stronger and more dangerous ninja than Sasori.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> me or her? regardless if i had that much blood on my hands i probably wouldn't be able to live with myself either + she had no one else to live for, all her friends were dead.
> 
> well the manga disagrees with you  she did try to kill herself and she anticipated the fact that there was a possibility it wouldn't work
> 
> ...



feats of konan making paper out of thin air

if she could do that why didnt she just make a new paper body out of thin air to escape again a very slow oil blast??  

explosion worked against konan. its a physical attack 

do show us this feat of konan making paper out of thing air. ill wait


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Not exactly sure what you mean. Do you mean Domu makes him immune to poisoning?



Domu>>iron sand 



> Hidan is immune to the effects of poisoning and Konan can't be poisoned by his weapons in her Paper Form. So... yeah


. 

since when is hidan immune to poison??? mind proving this. why cant konan be poisoned?? her paper can be soaked in poison if its pierced by any of sasori attacks. what do u think happens to her paper soaked in poison?? at worst sasori easily outlasts konan. he spends alot less chakra than she does. 



> Anyone above Kakuzu has the potential to outright blitz him with a shunshin, making them clearly tailor made to defeat him.



bltizing him doesnt help them kill him 5 times. mifune is probably faster than kakuzu. he cant beat kakuzu



> 1. Kisame's Suitons flood his puppet army / Washes Poison off Iron Sand & Samehada renders Iron Sand motionless, blitzes him
> 2. Itachi's Ribcage Susano makes him immune to everything in Sasori's arsenal, blitzes him
> 3. Obito phases through his entire arsenal, blitzes him
> 4. Nagato rejects all of his arsenal with ST, blitzes him



i never said sasori can beat kisame.  
 i never said sasori can do anything against itachi or nagato or obito. what the fuck is wrong with you?? 



> Kakuzu is faster, physically stronger, more durable, more versatile Ninjutsu, just as intelligent, more experienced, has stronger mid-long range techniques, is also immortal and can also fight as long as Sasori. The tailor made to defeat him doesn't really have anything to do with it, Kakuzu is an all-around stronger and more dangerous ninja than Sasori.


[/QUOTE]

again, i dont get your point at all. 

my point was very simple, against the larger demographic of narutoverse sasori is more dangerous to them than kakuzu is. thats simply all ive said. 

3rd kazekage puppet is more dangerous than kakuzu entire arsenal why? 

1 scratch KO its also a KKG.

itachi trolls kakuzu, obito trolls kakuzu, nagato trolls kakuzu, kisame trolls kakuzu. see how that works?  

no point pitting the top end against the middle end.  I maintain what i said, kisame can beat sasori no doubt but i believe more ninja would rather fight kisame than sasori who could in 1 scratch win the match.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutox28
> sasuke didnt have to sacrifice a wing to hit deidara. that was part of his plan
> of which he implied he had otherways of winning



numbing poison once it hit the air

 No, he tested out his theory with the sword, basically as confirmation that his theory on Deidara's jutsu was correct. So his other method involved getting his wing blown off was required to manage the Shadow Shurikens and catch Deidara within range of his Chidori Eisou.

 For more confirmation, here's another scan that outright states that the Katana was used to confirm his theory which was before Sasuke considered using another method if it didn't work.

numbing poison once it hit the air



> kakuzu last form is far from immobile where on earth did u get that from. it allows him to amaze huge amounts of chakra and even move quicker. it was never implied to be slower. it extends his reach.



 It extends his reach, but his physical body cannot move. This is why Kakuzu needed the tentacles in order to jump which is why Chouji was surprised he was able to jump, considering Kakuzu showed no movements during Semi-Final Form where he fused with his Masks. This is also evident when Kakuzu had to extend his arms to push his body backwards in an attempt to avoid Naruto's FRS which would have been useless if it wasn't for Naruto's FRS failing at the last minute.

 Kakuzu showed no agility, his fighting style revolved around his tentacles and ninjutsu as his speed used during his Normal Form isn't anything note worthy, so there's no reason he would adapt to a more agile fighting style when his masks and tentacles were the biggest threat the whole time. With that being said, Kakuzu's most potent jutsu was evaded by Kakashi and Team 10 while CS2 Hebi Sasuke had to sacrifice a wing in order to even attack Deidara, so my point still stands.



> deidara would beat kakuzu the same way sasori should beat deidara and kakzu beats sasori



 Kakuzu can't beat Sasori when his speed and reflexes were unable to avoid Shikamaru's Attacks. Kakuzu gets overwhelmed by 100 puppets and dies. His masks can't do anything as Tenten easily took one of them out.

 Deidara would only fail to beat Kakuzu because of his Raiton Mask, but guided missles would actually be a potential threat, so it's debatable. Interestingly enough, Deidara's bird wasn't that quick against Sasuke, but was against Onoki which could imply that Deidara can evade Kakuzu's Raiton masks. Overall though, Deidara is implied to be the stronger ninja, hence why Kisame and Pain acknowledged his death while they did no such thing with Kakuzu.



> in direct match ups they seem very even however when it comes to difficulty at dealign with an opponent sasori is obviously more dangerous diue to the fact that he needs a scratch



 Personally, I take what Deidara stated literally to justify Sasori's superiority over Deidara considering Deidara's not the one to acknowledge someone being stronger than him though that statement could imply that Deidara would lose to Sasori, but not that Sasori himself was stronger than most ninja out there compared to Deidara overall.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> at the level of Bee's base strength
> 
> No, he tested out his theory with the sword, basically as confirmation that his theory on Deidara's jutsu was correct. So his other method involved getting his wing blown off was required to manage the Shadow Shurikens and catch Deidara within range of his Chidori Eisou.
> 
> ...



sasuke can fly. are u saying if he wanted to fly at deidara he wouldnt have been able to? now considering sasuke is the faster opponent. he could have the minute he transformed however tested his theory of what deidara jutsu actually does. 



> It extends his reach, but his physical body cannot move. This is why Kakuzu needed the tentacles in order to jump which is why Chouji was surprised he was able to jump, considering Kakuzu showed no movements during Semi-Final Form where he fused with his Masks. This is also evident when Kakuzu had to extend his arms to push his body backwards in an attempt to avoid Naruto's FRS which would have been useless if it wasn't for Naruto's FRS failing at the last minute.



he jumped. try again 



> Kakuzu showed no agility, his fighting style revolved around his tentacles and ninjutsu as his speed used during his Normal Form isn't anything note worthy, so there's no reason he would adapt to a more agile fighting style when his masks and tentacles were the biggest threat the whole time. With that being said, Kakuzu's most potent jutsu was evaded by Kakashi and Team 10 while CS2 Hebi Sasuke had to sacrifice a wing in order to even attack Deidara, so my point still stands.



he can use his tentacles to move. the DB never describes that form as preventing him from being just as quick. the fact that he jumped kinda shows he could still very well move. 


> Kakuzu can't beat Sasori when his speed and reflexes were unable to avoid Shikamaru's Attacks. Kakuzu gets overwhelmed by 100 puppets and dies. His masks can't do anything as Tenten easily took one of them out.



. with domu he can stand there and they wont be able to harm him 



> Deidara would only fail to beat Kakuzu because of his Raiton Mask, but guided missles would actually be a potential threat, so it's debatable. Interestingly enough, Deidara's bird wasn't that quick against Sasuke, but was against Onoki which could imply that Deidara can evade Kakuzu's Raiton masks. Overall though, Deidara is implied to be the stronger ninja, hence why Kisame and Pain acknowledged his death while they did no such thing with Kakuzu.



deidara needs c3 or c4 to kill kakuzu. kakuzu lightning mask makes it hard to pull off. if deidara gets hit by gian once he is down for the count. Pain didnt acknwoledge itachi death. does that mean deidara is stronger than itachi?



> Personally, I take what Deidara stated literally to justify Sasori's superiority over Deidara considering Deidara's not the one to acknowledge someone being stronger than him though that statement could imply that Deidara would lose to Sasori, but not that Sasori himself was stronger than most ninja out there compared to Deidara overall.



i agree sasori is superior to deidara


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

> Domu>>iron sand


Yes. 



> .since when is hidan immune to poison??? mind proving this. why cant konan be poisoned?? her paper can be soaked in poison if its pierced by any of sasori attacks. what do u think happens to her paper soaked in poison?? at worst sasori easily outlasts konan. he spends alot less chakra than she does.


Since crippling injuries and massive blood loss / organ failure have not affected him. 

Nothing happens to paper soaked in poison, because Konan in paper form doesn't have a bloodstream to be infiltrated. 



> bltizing him doesnt help them kill him 5 times. mifune is probably faster than kakuzu. he cant beat kakuzu


When did I say anything about blitzing Kakuzu? Those were meant for Sasori. 



> i never said sasori can beat kisame.
> i never said sasori can do anything against itachi or nagato or obito. what the fuck is wrong with you??


When the fuck did I say you said that? What the fuck is wrong with your reading comprehension? 



> again, i dont get your point at all.
> 
> my point was very simple, against the larger demographic of narutoverse sasori is more dangerous to them than kakuzu is. thats simply all ive said.


No he's not, like, at all. Kakuzu is clearly more dangerous. 



> 3rd kazekage puppet is more dangerous than kakuzu entire arsenal why?
> 
> 1 scratch KO its also a KKG.


And if you have Sakura's antidote this all becomes useless.

Sasori would fail to eliminate a larger army than Kakuzu, he would fail to protect more ninja than Kakuzu, and he'd fail to beat higher-level ninja than Kakuzu. 

The bottom line is Kakuzu beats more higher level ninja than Sasori, on any fucking day. 



> itachi trolls kakuzu, obito trolls kakuzu, nagato trolls kakuzu, kisame trolls kakuzu. see how that works?


Indeed. But Kakuzu would surely last longer than Sasori. 



> no point pitting the top end against the middle end.  I maintain what i said, kisame can beat sasori no doubt but i believe more ninja would rather fight kisame than sasori who could in 1 scratch win the match.


I sincerely doubt that. The poison is dangerous, yes, but Kisame cannot be targeted by most Ninjutsu, is highly durable, has regeneration capabilities, is very fast and has massive crashing Suitons. I would rather face Sasori.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > Yes.
> ...


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sasuke can fly. are u saying if he wanted to fly at deidara he wouldnt have been able to? now considering sasuke is the faster opponent. he could have the minute he transformed however tested his theory of what deidara jutsu actually does.



 He wouldn't have been able to considering Deidara can launch guided missiles and would've stayed out of Sasuke's range. The Shurikens were needed to catch Deidara off-guard and get him within range.





> he jumped. try again



 I know he did, however, Base Hebi Sasuke who's much faster than Team 10 was unable to avoid C2. Furthermore, I claimed CS2 Hebi Sasuke needed to sacrifice a wing to set up his strategy(ies) against Deidara. Kakuzu's Futon enhanced Katon was much less impressive by far.





> he can use his tentacles to move. the DB never describes that form as preventing him from being just as quick. the fact that he jumped kinda shows he could still very well move.



 I never said he couldn't move his tentacles. I claimed his physical body itself is mostly immobile for the reasons stated. He also used his wires to jump that high, so your point is moot.




> . with domu he can stand there and they wont be able to harm him



 Domu doesn't have feats that allows him to take the brunt of C2 or C3 which with his lower speed and reflexes won't be able to react to. Hope you're not suggesting he can tank C2 or C3.

 C4 also counters his Masks aside from maybe the Raiton Mask considering each of them are living entities and have a heart, so thus they need to breathe.

 In CQC, Deidara can still use guiding missiles and easily evade Kakuzu and his Masks, especially when they're pressured by bombs. 





> deidara needs c3 or c4 to kill kakuzu. kakuzu lightning mask makes it hard to pull off. if deidara gets hit by gian once he is down for the count. Pain didnt acknwoledge itachi death. does that mean deidara is stronger than itachi?



 Raiton Mask is the only threat here. Kakuzu and his other masks gets wrecked and he will have to resort to fusing with his Raiton Mask in order to win.

 In context, comparing Deidara and Kakuzu makes sense in comparison to Kisame and Itachi (who were not acknowledged). Deidara was commented on his special art style as being useful and unique, however, Kakuzu's strange fighting style received no such treatment meaning Deidara's abilities were superior to Kakuzu's. 

 Itachi also didn't have to be acknowledged for his death because at this point, he was already severely blind which Zetsu witnessed and was suffering from a fatal disease which Black Zetsu was aware of, so they had no use for Itachi at that point.



> i agree sasori is superior to deidara



 Not overall, but in terms of a fight, I believe so.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 13, 2015)

> so sasori cant hurt kakuzu then. which was my point


Indeed. 



> so i guess if hidan took an electric shock he would be fine then???  cuz u know raiton shock and poison in the manga have the same effect.
> sasuke flows chidori into yamato..my body is numb i cant mold chakra. sasori stabs sakura...my body is numb i cant mold chakra.


Hidan stabbed himself through the leg, was stabbed in the mid section several times and was directly hit with a wind blast and katon by Asuma, receiving no crippling injuries.



> hidan will drop if he is riddled with poison.  what crippling injuries did hidan have?? u mean the one he failed to escape from and was left in a hole to rot.


No chance whatsoever. Massive blood loss and severed muscles/bones is clearly more damaging than poison that takes 3 days to kill the average ninja. 



> stabbing himself is part of his ninjutsu so is the seal. that takes chakra. cant mold chakra cant do much ninjutsu fighting. sasori trolls hidan with hiruko


No it's not, he's literally immortal and it's not a Ninjutsu.

He was alive and talking with a severed head and blown apart body. There's no level of logic that would dictate any poison stopping Hidan. 



> and when she returns to her human form which she will before sasori even starts tapping into his reserves what happens to all that poison


She has no reason to return to her human form. 



> despite sasori being the only one with the title of conquering a country


Other than Orochimaru who created a country, or Nagato who brought Konoha to it's knees with Pain, or Obito who brought the world to it's knees. 



> go ahead and prove it. pick ninjas both can actually not be trolled by, so low to mid kage level. sasori would take more out than kakuzu. try it


No he would not. 



> they both get trolled too quick to even tell who lasts longer. itachi goes susanoo and neg diffs both of them. nagato ST and wins obito asks why he is even being bothered to fight them


Nagato's ST isn't putting Kakuzu down, it however destroys Sasori's puppets with ease. 



> those without antidote die to poison. regardless of how durable they are. sort of like jukken. these are things u cant overrate as they by pass durablility once thye take effect.


Assuming it hit them and that it entered their bloodstream. A basic chakra barrier blocked Iron Sand Drizzle (Chiyo), doesn't take much durability to stop poisoning. 



> easiest way to defeat sasori, have antidote or a defense he cant get through. otherwise u are getting scratched. the guy has way too many ways to scratch a person and its a win. regardless of how sturdy the person is


That, or speed to dodge it/blitz him, Ninjutsu that dwarfs his Iron Sand/destroys it/renders it moot. 



> Hebi sasuke,mifune, onoki (no jinton) or he trolls,
> 
> are u telling me kakuzu is more dangerous to them than sasori is??


Yup, Hebi Sasuke blocks Iron Sand with White Snake Defense or outright blitzes him at start battle. Mifune is poisoned if Sasori starts with Kazekage puppet, and Onoki just avoids Iron Sand by flying as his Earth Bunshins and Rock Golem solo. 

Kakuzu tanks all of their arsenals save Sasuke's Chidori/Kirin, which he can avoid/prevent through the utilization of his hearts. Whether or not he beats him is debatable, but Sasori is dying much faster. 



> sasori beat chiyo and sakura in a fair fight. they basically had 3 death cheats. i dont see how thats any worse than kakuzu being fooled by naruto


Sasori was killed... 

Kakuzu brought Sharingan Kakashi / Ino / Choji to their knees and was about to blow their faces off, this is after he nearly pulled Kakashi's heart out, then he almost killed Wind-arc Naruto if not for Yamato/Kakashi's intervention and would have succeeded in killing the rest directly afterward, now, this is all after his Domu Heart was destroyed by the stealth attack from Kakashi.


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## Alita (Mar 13, 2015)

Here is how I would rank akatsuki...

1.Obito
2.Nagato
3.Itachi
4.Kisame
5.Kakuzu
6.Deidara
7.Sasori
8.Konan
9.Hidan

If anything I think kakuzu is the most underrated. He can shut down deidara easily with his lightning elemental heart. Every bomb deidara send his way he can shut down before they even have the chance to go off. Some he can even outright tank with his doton no domu.

And I don't get how anyone can believe sasori can beat him. With his superior speed, AOE attacks, and doton no domu defense there is no way sasori can land a scratch on him. Poison gas probably won't even phase him seeing how he always wears a mask nevermind the fact that he can blow away the gas and sasori with his massive AOE fuuton jutsus.

Konan is where she is cause I didn't give her prep. With it she would be above sasori but I'm skeptical about higher ups then that.

Oh and if I were to list orochimaru he'd be above sasori since he counters him pretty hard but probably below deidara cause of flight and bomb spam.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 14, 2015)

Actually, I can see why Sasori is considered one of the weakest members of the Akatsuki after rereading his fight with Sakura and Chiyo.

 His Iron Sand is really only technique that can be considered threatening. If we take into consideration of his performance by using his own body as a puppet, it was lacking. Being countered by a Weakened Chiyo and a Weakened Sakura is embarrassing and his 100 puppet technique for the most part was easily countered by Chiyo as most of Sasori's puppets were fodderized. 

 I can definitely see Kakuzu blowing through all of Sasori's puppets with ease and just manhandling him with his wires the same way Sakura did with her physical strength.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

@narutoX28
C2 doesn't hve feats of breaching domu 
See how that works ?

Kakuzu called it an absolute defence DB describes it as daimond hard 
Got no reason to think its less durable than a cs2 wing

Sakura and chiyo had 3 antidotes which they used . Without those Sasori would have won a while ago 

It's odd how
People forget that . The fact that he has a kage as a puppet who uses a KKG and he added poison to it makes him mid tier 

Forget that for people without some sort of defense or large scale attack fighting 100 puppets is not happening without getting scratched . Which again is all he needs to win

@davizwiz hidan seal is a ninjutsu. u need to know that before arguing . Please look it up in DB it's classified as a ninjutsu. Do u know a ninjutsu that doesn't use chakra ? So you believe if hidan eats raiton it would have no effect on him U know since he can survive crippling injuries

As for konan returning to her human form. Chakra loss is one way she goes back to that form . Sasori can fight much longer due to using a lot less chakra . 

Blitzing hiruko hardly defeats sasori . U cut it up and he brings out the 3rd . 
Yes Sasori attacks are easier to tank because the idea isn't to overpower but to overwhelm and scratch . Mifune looses a lot quicker to Sasori than he does to kakuzu. 1 needle and he drops . He also would have a hard time cutting hiruko up . Clearly domu is a better defense . But I don't see how 3rd kazekage with poison iron sand (iron world order basically restricts movement ) making it easy for a second attack +100 puppets isn't superior to 4 elemental masks


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28
> C2 doesn't hve feats of breaching domu
> See how that works ?



 Actually it does, unlike Domu who's best feat is tanking Chouji's Attack which doesn't even compare to sheer power and AoE of C2.



> Kakuzu called it an absolute defence DB describes it as daimond hard
> Got no reason to think its less durable than a cs2 wing



 Actually we do. Sage Chakra is far superior to just normal chakra and CS2 is powered up by Senjutsu. Sasuke's Cursed Seal, is very much related to Jugo's Cursed Seal which means Sasuke gets most of the buffs Jugo would normally get with Sage Chakra and we've seen how high durability was when he tanked a V1 Raikage punch right through his chest.

 There's also the fact that SM Naruto durability increased by a large margin just by Senjutsu when he tanked a Bed of Spikes like it was nothing.

 And Furthermore, Kakuzu can't tank C3 or C4 for that matter unless you're implying that Domu can tank a Village-Sized Explosion.



> Sakura and chiyo had 3 antidotes which they used . Without those Sasori would have won a while ago



 Yeah, he would have.



> It's odd how
> People forget that . The fact that he has a kage as a puppet who uses a KKG and he added poison to it makes him mid tier



 Except he's not landing a hit, especially on a Weakened Chiyo who only got hit due to having to protect Sakura who has nothing that can destroy 100 puppets. Kakuzu does. 



> Forget that for people without some sort of defense or large scale attack fighting 100 puppets is not happening without getting scratched . Which again is all he needs to win



 Which most ninja have. Or you can outright blitz puppets which Chiyo did somewhat.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Actually it does, unlike Domu who's best feat is tanking Chouji's Attack which doesn't even compare to sheer power and AoE of C2.



and domu tanked it without a scratch correct. now unless u got some DB statement saying Cs2 or any version of it gives the person diamond like defense then sorry it dont got the feats. lets see the 2 things described to have diamond defense. 

kusanagi and enma staff. now kusanagi has shown its as durable as KN4 cloak. u telling me u think a bloody wing is more durable than that?




> Actually we do. Sage Chakra is far superior to just normal chakra and CS2 is powered up by Senjutsu. Sasuke's Cursed Seal, is very much related to Jugo's Cursed Seal which means Sasuke gets most of the buffs Jugo would normally get with Sage Chakra and we've seen how high durability was when he tanked a V1 Raikage punch right through his chest.



kusanagi is more durable. no sage chakra there



> There's also the fact that SM Naruto durability increased by a large margin just by Senjutsu when he tanked a Bed of Spikes like it was nothing.



SM naruto sage mode>>>>>>>CS2



> And Furthermore, Kakuzu can't tank C3 or C4 for that matter unless you're implying that Domu can tank a Village-Sized Explosion.



i agree 


 Yeah, he would have.





> Except he's not landing a hit, especially on a Weakened Chiyo who only got hit due to having to protect Sakura who has nothing that can destroy 100 puppets. Kakuzu does.



the 100 werent destroyed and he did land a hit against the best person to fight him




> Which most ninja have. Or you can outright blitz puppets which Chiyo did somewhat.



list 10 mid to low kage level with defenses like that. go on ill wait


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## Bonly (Mar 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> His Iron Sand is really only technique that can be considered threatening.



All of Sasori's weapons are covered in poison meaning one hit will kill you in three days as well as the fact that a person will shortly become paralyzed after being hit. Is the fact that one must avoid every single attack not threatening when Sasori has a shit load of poison weapons in the least bit? Sasori said that if he added Chiyo and Sakura to his collection then he would have 300 puppets meaning that Sasori has 298 puppets in his arsenal. Is the possibility of 298 all with poison weapons(and some might be able to use jutsu like the Sandaime Kazekage if they are human puppets) not threatening in the least bit? Sasori showed that he can use chakra strings to control a persons movements and as we saw Sasori when using himself can have up to 100 chakra strings and if Sasori is skilled like Chiyo then he might be able to suppress his chakra to make the strings invisible . Does the possibility of Sasori being able to control a person at some point in time during the thus leaving them open to an attack not threatening in the least bit? There's a few more things but to say Satetsu is the only threatening thing about him is underrating Sasori quite a bit. 



> If we take into consideration of his performance by using his own body as a puppet, it was lacking. Being countered by a Weakened Chiyo and a Weakened Sakura is embarrassing



Sakura and Chiyo had two antidotes to make his poison(which is his breed and butter) useless for which lasted three minutes so him being "countered" isn't all that bad. He still managed to hit Sakura(who had used an antidote) with poison rope as well as he hit Chiyo with one of his puppets. So I wouldn't say that it's really all that embarrassing. 



> and his 100 puppet technique for the most part was easily countered by Chiyo as most of Sasori's puppets were fodderized.



One of the reasons why Akahigi: Hyakki no Soen is so dangerous in my opinion is because of the sheer number of puppets that one has to deal with so even if Sakura and Chiyo managed to destroy some of his puppets Chiyo still managed to get hit and on top of that Sasori managed to trick them into think he was finished and managed to land a hit on Sakura(would've been Chiyo if Sakura didn't jump in) and Sakura would've died since Sasori hit a vital point had it not been for Chiyo's Kishō Tensei. So even if most of his puppets were "fodderized" his puppets were good enough to pretty much get the job done had they not come prepared to stop his breed and butter which a majority of other ninja wouldn't have.


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## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

i agree with bonly assessment however as discussed with Davizwiz 
i have to recant my statement 

i think Domu +3 other elemental masks fighting is a tad more dangerous than sasori arsenal considering kishi didnt flesh out kakuzu same as for sasori. 

as described in DB normally kakuzu should be able to use any of his heart abilites through his own body if they are all in him. also well they move on their own etc and seem to have quite abit of intelligence

i believe deidara>kakuzu>sasori


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## Matty (Apr 24, 2015)

1 Obito
2 Pain
3 Itachi
4 Kisame/Sasori
5 Kakuzu/Deidara
6 Konan
7 Hidan
8 Zetsu

I don't get why people think Sasori is just some fodder. To me he doesn't get blasted by anyone besides Obito and Pain. Itachi's Genjutsu is meaningless against Sasori and his stamina really hurts him in a match. To me Itachi takes it more times than not but let's not act as if Sasori just gets trampled by the rest of the Akatsuki. He can beat any single one of them in there more times than not (besides Itachi and Kisame) with the arsenal he has. People tend to forget, with no knowledge you even get close to him and you have a poison coil right through your chest


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## Sadgoob (Apr 24, 2015)

I think Sasori's somewhat overrated. He's pretty reflexively weak for a Kage level given that Sakura was doing moderately well, but she couldn't keep up with Sasuke's shunshin at all. Very blitz-able.

He has hype from Deidara that I just don't buy based on what we've seen from them. So I tend to switch the more common view of Sasori being a strong Mid-Kage and Deidara being a weak Mid-Kage. 

(He's definitely nowhere near as polished as Deidara in reflexes, given Deidara repeatedly clone feinted and maneuvered around Sasuke, Kakashi, Gai, Neji etc. Plus c4/exploding clones > you.)



> Obito / Pain / Itachi
> 
> Deidara / Kisame
> 
> ...


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2015)

Okay let's go through the Akatsuki-Member shall we.

Hidan - Sasori is literally in every regard better than Hidan. Hidan needs to scratch someone, ingest their blood, and perform his ritual. Sasori just needs to scratch them. And Sasori's methods of scratching someone puppets with hidden traps, Satetsu, 100 Puppets, Heart-container swap ambush, are all vastly superior to Hidan's. Sasori is also faster, more intelligent, more experienced, and so on than Hidan

Deidara - Deidara directly states Sasori is stronger than him. Ch 265, pg 11, "In comparison to me master Sasori is probably much stronger" [Link removed. Plus Deidara's flight can be easily countered by Satetsu and Puppets, both of which can fly themselves, and if Sasuke can land Shuriken on Deidara I can't imagine Deidara evading Satetsu and 100 puppets w/o a scratch. Plus Sasori defeated a much stronger Kazekage and became stronger after that, solo'd an entire country and has better DB stats, so he just has better hype and portrayal than Deidara.

Kakuzu - Again Sasori has better feats, hype, and portrayal than Kakuzu. Sasori's Satetsu is enough to protect him and destroy the masked beasts. Also where Kakuzu excels, which is overwhelming the enemy with multiple attacks, Sasori has him beat with the amount of puppets he can use. Plus chances are high that out of Sasori's 298 puppet collection he has multiple-human puppets able to use all different elemental affinities, which hard counters Kakuzu

Kisame - He was portrayed to be outside of a Sannin's league and Itachi thought Part I Kakashi could give him problems. Gai decimated his Shoten with a quick usage of 6th-Gate. This simply isn't on the level of someone who beat the strongest Kazekage and took on an entire country, and so on. Kisame only reaches that "level" when he can absorb a huge quantity of chakra, like he does against Jinchuuriki and Bijuu. So perhaps Kisame at his best, right after absorbing a massive amount of chakra is >= Sasori, but otherwise he is inferior. As for feats, Kisame might win if Samehada can render the puppets immobile, thus making him a nightmare match up for a puppet uses, but otherwise he's getting smoked by Sasori, as he will not be able to evade Sasori's techniques w/o a scratch and poison denies his durability.

Itachi - Hebi-Sasuke fight Itachi given his inability to evade Hebi-Sasuke's trap shuriken and Katon would likely end up scratched by Sasori and loos more often than not. A more healthy-Itachi vs Sasori, is hard to determine, both have monumental accomplishments and hype, and extremely hax tricky abilities, that are excessively dangerous for each other and their enemies in general. Edo-Itachi is probably stronger though

Obito and Nagato are obviously stronger. Konan and Zetsu lack the necessary data to be rated.

So Sasori is above Kakuzu, Deidara, and Hidan [and the members Kakuzu killed]. He is most of the time above Kisame. He is roughly around Itachi's "level", and is only decisively beneath Obito and Nagato.

I think that qualifies Sasori as on of the Top-Akatsuki members as he is above the majority of members we can rank, and besides the Leaders, he is still competitive against Itachi and Kisame [depending on Kisame's chakra amount].



Strategoob said:


> I think Sasori's somewhat overrated. He's pretty reflexively weak for a Kage level given that Sakura was doing moderately well, but she couldn't keep up with Sasuke's shunshin at all. Very blitz-able.
> ]​



When was Sakura doing moderately well against any of Sasori's better moves w/o Chiyo controlling her or safe guarding her.​


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## Alex Payne (Apr 24, 2015)

Deidara might have been lying to send one of his enemies away. He complained about Kakashi being around which was interfering with his plan to capture Naruto.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 24, 2015)

Plus we know Deidara respected Sasori, but firmly believed his art (i.e. ninja techniques) were superior. And they objectively were. We also know Deidara thought c4 would kill Orochimaru/Itachi.

And they definitely could. It's not all about getting him out of the air either, as he's pretty masterful at clone feinting and then doton-ing elsewhere. IMO one of the most underrated ninja.​


Turrin said:


> When was Sakura doing moderately well against any of Sasori's better moves w/o Chiyo controlling her or safe guarding her.



Just knowing that pre-Hebi Sasuke could shunshin-kusanagi Sakura's head off between panels and Sasori couldn't scratch Sasori for awhile, even with Chiyo helping, discredits Sasori's speed.

He would _never_ hit ninja in Hebi Sasuke's reflex tier, and ninja in Hebi Sasuke's reflex tier would have almost no difficulty exploiting that _stated weakness of puppeteers:_ moving in close for a beatdown.

You used Hebi Sasuke hitting people with shuriken to make it seem like Sasori could, but they're _light years_ apart in speed by virtue of Sakura being able to see and eventually predict Sasori's moves.​


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Deidara might have been lying to send one of his enemies away. He complained about Kakashi being around which was interfering with his plan to capture Naruto.


Deidara had no reason to lie about his strength in comparison to Sasori's, he could have just said Sasori is much stronger than Chiyo and Sakura to gode Kakashi into going back to assists them. Which honestly would have been the truth. 

And to be perfectly honest their entire dynamic goes against this. Deidara calls Sasori "danna" which is a sign of respect for someone of high status, while Sasori treats Deidara like a kid. Even the way Kishi hypes them shows this contrast. Right after Deidara defeats the Kazekage, Sasori is hyped to have defeated the Strongest Kazekage and when he was weaker at that, and later hyped even further by soloing an entire country. Additionally in the DB Kishi even gives Sasori better stats than Deidara. Even against the ambush Squad while both got raped, at least Kishi went out of the way to massive handicap and thus excuse Sasori's performance, while not giving Deidara the same benefit.

On the flip side of this what reason do we have to believe Deidara is better. Is it because he pushed a Hebi-Sasuke who wasn't going for the kill w/ the help of Tobi, before ultimately loosing? Because literally that is Deidara's only accomplishment in the manga, that isn't directly eclipsed by Sasori's.



Strategoob said:


> Just knowing that pre-Hebi Sasuke could shunshin-kusanagi Sakura's head off between panels and Sasori couldn't scratch Sasori for awhile, even with Chiyo helping, discredits Sasori's speed.​



Chiyo was able to do that because of her deep understanding and knowledge of the art of puppeteering, not solely because of her speed. And what she moved Sakura out of the way off like a few techniques, and otherwise need to pull out her Puppets or Chakra-Shields to protect her, and still Sakura was scratched again and again throughout the match, and so was Chiyo. 



> He would never hit ninja in Hebi Sasuke's reflex tier, and ninja in Hebi Sasuke's reflex tier would have almost no difficulty exploiting that stated weakness of puppeteers: moving in close for a beatdown.


So because someone who is merely .5 off Hebi-Sasuke's speed, can react to some of Sasori's moves, due to having a much deeper understanding of puppet techniques than Sasuke has, somehow Sasuke will magically evade everything Sasori can throw at him, yeah...okay. Sasori speed tier is the same as Sasuke's in the DB, Sasuke's Sharingan prediction won't help him against unpredictable traps and tricks, and attacks coming from outside his LOS, all of which Sasori specializes in. Sasori also beat Sandaime-Kazekage whose Satetsu moves at incredible speeds and did so w/o the Sandaime-Kazekage puppet, so being able to get around a powerful defense like Satetsu and the speed of Satetsu, also shuts down this argument.



> You used Hebi Sasuke hitting people with shuriken to make it seem like Sasori could, but they're light years apart in speed by virtue of Sakura being able to see and eventually predict Sasori's moves.


They are the same exact speed tier, so their movement speeds are the same. Sasuke's reaction speed is better thanks to Sharingan, but that has no baring on the speed they can launch attacks. Sasori's speed of executing an attack is relatively just as quick, but his attacks like Satetsu are quicker and has a wider AOE, and 100 Puppets is much hard to avoid due to the number of attacks being dished out from all angles.​


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## ShadoLord (Apr 24, 2015)

sasori beated like 3 kazekage in history before, he seems underrated if anything.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Just knowing that pre-Hebi Sasuke could shunshin-kusanagi Sakura's head off between panels and Sasori couldn't scratch Sasori for awhile, *even with Chiyo helping*, discredits Sasori's speed.​



Chiyo's assistance helped Sakura, though, since it meant she had her own speed/reflexes as well as Chiyo's. There's also the added mobility and being able to just get reeled back irrespective of her position thanks to chakra strings, and that's a style which works quite well with a medical shinobi's emphasis on evasion. Is this just awkward phrasing on your part?


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## Trojan (Apr 24, 2015)

Why do people say X character is lying every time said character admitted that s/he is inferior to Y? 

There is no single freaking time such a thing happened where X admitted that he is inferior, and then latter on 
Kishi comes and say "no he was lying" lol


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## Sadgoob (Apr 24, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Chiyo's assistance helped Sakura, though, since it meant she had her own speed/reflexes as well as Chiyo's. There's also the added mobility and being able to just get reeled back irrespective of her position thanks to chakra strings, and that's a style which works quite well with a medical shinobi's emphasis on evasion. Is this just awkward phrasing on your part?



My main point being that Sakura can even follow his movements. And she was evading him completely on her own after watching him fight for a short amount of time.​


Hussain said:


> Why do people say X character is lying every time said character admitted that s/he is inferior to Y?



Because ninjas aren't 100% truthful to their enemies, and if what they say goes against facts displayed, then it stands to reason that they were either lying, or were just wrong.​


Turrin said:


> So because someone who is merely .5 off Hebi-Sasuke's speed, can react to some of Sasori's moves, due to having a much deeper understanding of puppet techniques than Sasuke has, somehow Sasuke will magically evade everything Sasori can throw at him, yeah...okay



If Sakura "magically" avoided everything on her own , then _duh_, Sasuke with the Sharingan, who is orders of magnitude faster and more reflexive, "magically" would.

I love the databook, but it's undeniable that the span for "4.5" is _huge_, ranging from Hebi Sasuke (Sharingan boost) to Deidara or, well, Sasori, because Deidara has _way_ better reaction feats.​


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## Trojan (Apr 24, 2015)

> Because ninjas aren't 100% truthful to their enemies



Except they are. Madara did not deny that Hashirama is stronger than him in front of the Kages. A did not deny that Minato is superior to him, Jiraiya did not deny that Pain is stronger than him. Hiruzen did not deny that Oro is stronger than him, and Oro did not deny that itachi is stronger than him, and itachi did not deny that Jiraiya is stronger than him.


....etc 

every time those type of things comes up, they come as facts.



> and if what they say goes against facts displayed,



That's just based on the scenarios that the fans draw in their heads, and believe that things will go as they planned
as if they have total control. little do they know that they have no control over what the characters will do or think.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except they are. Madara did not deny that Hashirama is stronger than him in front of the Kages. A did not deny that Minato is superior to him, Jiraiya did not deny that Pain is stronger than him. Hiruzen did not deny that Oro is stronger than him, and Oro did not deny that itachi is stronger than him, and itachi did not deny that Jiraiya is stronger than him.



Itachi lied about his level to Sasuke. Haku lied about his level in part one (stated by Zabuza, and since he can react/block Gai.) Kabuto lied about his level to part one Genin. 

... Orochimaru lied about his level in the Genin exam. Obito mislead people about his level as Tobi. Kakashi lied about his level when he was first introduced by getting hit in the head by an eraser trap. 

So yeah. It's not debatable. It's a fact that ninja are not 100% truthful about their level, and are often motivated to be deceitful and underplay their true strength to gain strategic advantage.

i.e. if you're outnumbered by ninja like Deidara was, a spy in Akatsuki like Itachi, a spy in Konoha like Kabuto, or have other personal motivations where it makes sense.​


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## Cord (Apr 24, 2015)

I have quite a high opinion of Sasori and still think that he's in the upper half of Akatsuki rankings. I'm sure most of us notice that he gets often discredited for his speed, something which I feel isn't attributed to the right reasons. It's more on the case of Sasori not displaying those dashing speed attacks akin to what we've seen from combatants who are well-known for their speed, rather than him being actually slow. 

It's his fighting style that is reliant on puppetry that hinders him from properly showcasing his movement speed or us from exploring how he'd fair well to those aforementioned characters, if Sasori were to move without the aid of his puppets. He's someone who has a style that is more reliant on having good reflexes and being such doesn't necessarily translate to him being entirely vulnerable for not being fast enough to dodge. 

While _Satetsu_ does get overly praised, it's still a formidable arsenal especially if it is used in tandem with poison. There's also the overwhelming army of puppets and body switch that may take a lot of stamina and chakra to combat. You'd have to have the perfect fighting style that is the worst possible match for Sasori's to guarantee you won't get a single scratch. I say that because a battle scenario between two Kage levels in the manga where one gets off completely unscathed is something difficult to imagine. 

And by Kage level, I don't mean to include top or demi god tiers like Obito, Madara, Hashirama, and Kaguya arc Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Apr 24, 2015)

I think Deidara cited Sasori as being the stronger of the duo not because of their battlefield strength but because of their overall ability. Literally half of Sasori's abilities are useless in the Battledome because they have no direct combat application (his spymaster abilities, his assassination abilities). Which leaves us with a (still powerful) master-tier puppeteer.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 24, 2015)

What "assassination" abilities are you talking about?


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Apr 24, 2015)

He managed to kidnap and/or kill the Sandaime Kazekage and his bodyguards (presumably) without leaving so much as a trace there was even a fight. As far as Suna and the rest of the Narutoverse knows, the guy up and vanished. That's assassin-level bullshit. The power to drop a Kage without a real 'fight'.


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## Alucardemi (Apr 24, 2015)

Dr. Leonard Church said:


> He managed to kidnap and/or kill the Sandaime Kazekage and his bodyguards (presumably) without leaving so much as a trace there was even a fight. As far as Suna and the rest of the Narutoverse knows, the guy up and vanished. That's assassin-level bullshit. The power to drop a Kage without a real 'fight'.



They had a fight. 

Sasori mentioned that he was a pain in the ass to take down. He probably had to use his Aka Higi.


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## Puppetry (Apr 24, 2015)

Honestly I don't know. I used to be the biggest Sasori fan here - I probably still am - but after a great deal of emotional distance from the manga I'm not too sure about Sasori's placement anymore.

I think the biggest issue is that Sasori's intangibles (the hype statements, the DB stats, the dynamics of his relationships and what those imply) feel strangely lopsided against his on-panel accomplishments. Yes, there all sorts of rhetoric and explanations to recast his performances in a much more favorable light, but it's frustrating to measure the unknown. We know Sasori would have likely performed better pitted against different opponents, but how much better? Separating logical allowances from fandom dreams is difficult enough to ensure no consensus will ever really be reached.

Edit: That being said, I still lean towards Sasori being underrated. There are lot of posters who aren't interested in exploring the 'whys' of Sasori - why he performed the way he did against Chiyo and Sakura as well as the Ambush Squad. I agree it's tedious to sort through all that baggage, but it's unfortunately an essential part of discussing his power level. You don't get to ignore factors because they complicate the issue.


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## Empathy (Apr 24, 2015)

I think Sasori's the strongest Akatsuki member after the doujutsu users, except for maybe Part I Orochimaru if he counts. I think he's got a lot of bad match-ups, though. Someone like A would beat him with a disproportionate amount of ease in relation to their respective tiers. Likewise, he'd probably lose to Konan, Kakuzu, and Kisame due to match-up. Still, Deidara calling him superior given Deidara's own standing within Akatsuki is great hype if Sasori's a notch above that high tier level; albeit, Deidara's admission is contestable taken into context. Still, Sasori's not out of most of his fellow Akatsuki members league (not being a lot weaker or stronger than them). 

It'd be a difficult task for most solid Kage-level high tiers to fight someone on their own level and not receive a single scratch while winning. I think a lot of people don't take into consideration that most of Sasori's opponents can't even be scratched once and some of his attacks are supersonic. It's a criminally overlooked attribute, similar to Kakuzu having to be killed five times. Sasori having subjugated a low Kage's own power to his repertoire and it not even being the best he has to offer is another credit to his strength.



Ersatz said:


> He failed to beat down non-MS Wind Arc Kakashi (who admitted inferiority to Base Naruto) even with the later's handicap of protecting Ino and Choji. He snuck up on Shikamaru (such feats ).



Kakuzu was going to kill him twice if Kakashi didn't have hekp. Kakashi protected Chouji once, but I don't remember him ever having to do anything for Ino.



> His immortality and moderately powerful elemental attacks will beat down most Jounin yes but I struggle to see many Kage having any issue with him. Even the weaker ones like Gaara and Mei should edge him out most of the time. Kakuzu simply never performed against anyone impressive.



I don't see how Gaara would block _Gian_ when it negated two _Raikiris_ and still burned off one of Kakashi's gloves, especially if Kakuzu softens up Gaara's shell with his other ninjutsu first. I also doubt see how Gaara could crush someone as durable as Kakuzu. Sealing him would be his best bet, but his hearts could unseal him like how _Joki Boi_ did for Gengetsu. Kakuzu can parry Mei's ninjutsu with his own, and if he gets anywhere near Mei up close, he'll take her heart.


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If Sakura "magically" avoided everything on her own , then _duh_,​


I honestly think your forgetting how the fight went. Not that I can blame you for that as it was a Sakura fight and it happened many years ago at this point. But to refresh your memory:

Sakura didn't evade any of Sasori's attacks on her own. Chiyo controlled Sakura with puppet strings to evade some of Sasori's attacks. A feat she was only capable of because of her own quick reactions and massive wealth of experience when it comes to knowledge of master puppet craftsman and their traps [1]. However even Chiyo controlled Sakura really only evaded a very select few of Sasori's attack; some Kunai & Cluster-Bomb, Satetsu Kesshou, and that's literally it. So w/ Chiyo's help she evaded 2 of Sasori's most basic traps with Hiroku and Sasori's slowest Satetsu technique. That's really not much at all.

Every other thing she failed to evade. She failed to evade Senju Sōbu, failed to evade Satetsu Shigure, failed to evade Satetsu Kaihou, failed to evade the attacks of Sasori's true body, and failed to evade 100 puppets. In all of these instances ether Chiyo needed to defend with puppets and chakra shields, or Sakura &/or Chiyo were just plain hit. 



> Sasuke with the Sharingan, who is orders of magnitude faster and more reflexive, "magically" would.


He's not magnitudes faster than Chiyo, he's .5 faster. But considering Puppets move faster than the user, since they are designed to do so, he's probably not even .5 faster than Chiyo's puppets, with the focus on multiple, as Chiyo had 2 or more pieces on the board she could move to intercept attacks at all times, while Sasuke is just one person. Sharingan prediction is also not nearly as good against Sasori's traps and attacks from all angles, as Chiyo's wealth of experience allowing her to predict Sasori's attacks. Simply put Sasuke is not as good as Chiyo for the purpose of this match.



> I love the databook, but it's undeniable that the span for "4.5" is huge, ranging from Hebi Sasuke (Sharingan boost) to Deidara or, well, Sasori, because Deidara has way better reaction feats.


There's difference between 4.5's in speed, but not massive gaps. Sasori and Sasuke sharing the same speed tier means they are roughly the same speed, and Sasori's puppets should than be even faster and Sasuke has to deal with hundreds of them, plus Satetsu which is also faster than any of Sasuke's attacks and has a wider range, sans Kirin. 

Sasori is really a living nightmare for Sasuke to go up against. Genjutsu won't work. Sasuke has no techniques besides Kirin that will be able to get past Satetsu's defenses and he will not be able to evade Sasori's faster Satetsu attacks or 100 puppets. Sasuke's only hope against Sasori would be Kirin, and to last long enough to use it is highly unlikely. Contrast this with Deidara who was extremely lucky he survived Sasuke's opening Shunshin-Gambit


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He's not magnitudes faster than Chiyo, he's .5 faster.



Deidara was 0 faster than Sasuke according to the DB, so being 0.5 below is a pretty big gap. Sasuke's a very strong 4.5 and Sasori seems to be a weak 4.5 like Deidara.​


Turrin said:


> Sasori is really a living nightmare for Sasuke to go up against. Genjutsu won't work. Sasuke has no techniques besides Kirin that will be able to get past Satetsu's defenses and he will not be able to evade Sasori's faster Satetsu attacks or 100 puppets. Sasuke's only hope against Sasori would be Kirin, and to last long enough to use it is highly unlikely. Contrast this with Deidara who was extremely lucky he survived Sasuke's opening Shunshin-Gambit



That's not how I see it. I don't think Sasuke would have trouble evading any traps until the final stages, but a Chidori blossom in Sasori's heart (seen by chakra vision) would likely end it first.

And even in the final stages, Manda/Aoda more than make up the balance of field-control, which Sasori would need in order to hit Sasuke IMO. I think raitons would also mess with magnetic fields.

Sasori would be lucky to survive Sasuke's shunshin rush, because Sasuke can see his heart, and unlike Deidara, Sasori doesn't have the jutsu to run out of range to mitigate the huge reaction gap.
​


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara was 0 faster than Sasuke according to the DB, so being 0.5 below is a pretty big gap.​



When did Sasuke vastly outperform Deidara in physical movement speed? The only time he got the better of Deidara was when he used the Jutsu Shunshin. And given the way you rate Deidara, I must imagine that you are one of those people that believe Deidara was capable of evading that Shunshin-Blitz and was simply distracted by Tobi, as otherwise your placements of Deidara make no sense whatsoever, considering he would have been fodderized by Hebi-Sasuke. So I really do want to know what your referring to, that makes any sense within the context of how you rate Deidara.



> Sasuke's a very strong 4.5 and Sasori seems to be a weak 4.5 like Deidara.


Sasuke is a normal 4.5, he just has other tools that enhance his speed in certain ways further. Shunshin and Sharingan Precog. However Sasori also has techniques that enhance his speed in various ways or make his techniques more difficult to evade than the typical 4.5 in speed. His traps make his attacks difficult to predict, some of his Satetsu attacks are certainly faster than he can move, Kugutsu Puppets fly around the battlefield at higher speeds than the user can move, and than he has attacks like Kaihou and 100 puppets that are difficult to evade due to the sheer number of attacks from all different angles. And he only needs to scratch the enemy, meaning his speed is in part offset by the fact that the enemy needs to evade his attacks by a larger breath.




> hat's not how I see it. I don't think Sasuke would have trouble evading any traps until the final stages, but a Chidori blossom in Sasori's heart (seen by chakra vision) would likely end it first.


Sharing can see through Kugutsu w/ chakra flowing through it? Care to give an example? 

Beyond that, we are talking about a very specific scenario, where Sasuke plays his hand perfectly and Sasori plays his hand poorely . These scenario's aren't going to happen very often if we play the match out 100 times over various different conditions. 

Much more likely is the scenario where Sasori starts out with his basic Hiroku traps, while Sasuke starts out with his more basic arsenal; Shunshin + Ksunagi. Than once they've sized each other up, they start pulling out their more potent techniques, and than Sasuke is up against Satetsu and 100 Puppets.



> And even in the final stages, Manda/Aoda more than make up the balance of field-control, which Sasori would need in order to hit Sasuke IMO


I'm sorry, but they are huge targets to be fodderized by Satetsu and Poison in general.



> I think raitons would also mess with magnetic fields.


If this is the case, which I see absolutely no evidence that it is, as none of the elemental fusions have been subjected to any elemental inferiorities or hinted at having those, it would just be a case of poor match up, just like if Sasuke won due to being immune to Sasori's poison. 



> Sasori would be lucky to survive Sasuke's shunshin rush, because Sasuke can see his heart, and unlike Deidara, Sasori doesn't have the jutsu to run out of range to mitigate the huge reaction gap.


He doesn't? Why can't he fly on Satetsu? Why can't he heart swap? And if he has Satetsu out he would just straight up casually block that shit. 

As for seeing the heart container, I have my doubts he can see through Hiroku whose imbued with chakra, and even after that I have my doubts that Sasuke will immediately realize what he's seeing and immediately know to target the heart container, and even if he does he'll have to get through Satetsu or 100 Puppets to do it, and Sasori can still quickly swap his heart out to avoid this fate, while possessing a puppet outside of Sasuke's LOS and ambushing him from behind. 

There is no reason to believe it would be as easy as your outlining, unless again Sasori plays a horrible hand and Sasuke plays a brilliant one, which shouldn't even be up for consideration as realistic unless Sasuke has Full-Knowledge and Sasori has none, and the conditions are specifically well suited to this occurring. And it's like I could do the same shit for Sasori, by making the same assumptions, I.E. he immediately pulls out Sandaime Kazekage, while at the same time distracting Sasuke with Cluster-Bomb, and than instantly pulls out Satetsu Shigure and keeps bombarding Sasuke with his fastest non stop Satetsu moves until he kills him.​


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## Alex Payne (Apr 26, 2015)

Imo Sasori suffers from power inflation and from his main fight being heavily match up based(and having Sakura in it). People also underrate Chiyo quite a bit imo - she is a beast. Plus of course a horrible treatment post Edo Tensei. Which can be partly explained by him being resurrected with normal adult body which he didn't even use in life. But still a very bad showing.

Aside from that if we look at his achievements, hype and other similar elements he would appear quite strong. Not only did he kill strongest Kazekage at the time - he also did so without anyone noticing and without leaving any traces behind. You have someone stronger than strongest Kazekage(also smarter and more capable than Suna's security division) who can now use said Kazekage's main ability(which made him strongest) alongside his other stuff. Upgraded ability even - laced with top tier poison. Crazy ass 100+ puppets ability that he has used to take down a country. Nifty memory manipulation jutsu. Two unknown abilities from unused scrolls. Can use dead people's jutsu(watered down Edo Tensei basically). Remade himself into a puppet. Was planning to take on Orochimaru.

He could have easily been Sannin's peer. Yet was reduced to Kankuro's bullshit hype device. Alas.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 26, 2015)

Take any fight in the manga we've seen — one that doesn't involve the   few characters who wield god-like powers. Replace any one of the   fighters in question with Sasori, complete with his full repertoire of   puppets, and you'll realise something very obvious. Sasori is _bloody_   deadly. That glancing blow shinobi x got on shinobi y with a kunai,   that parried punch or just any moment the two come in physical contact? — the other person has now been paralysed by Sasori's poison and is at his complete   mercy. Anybody short of a rikudō blessing, a massive fuck-off summon,   space/time ninjutsu, a technique they can move via pure thought,  knowledge, antidotes or isn't  Kakuzu is more or less completely screwed against him.

In short: you need a very specific skill-set or scenario to really have a  good shot at beating him. The vast majority of the shinobi and kunoichi  in _Naruto_ don't have those things. 

Sasori is frequently underestimated because of the circumstances of each  of his fight; getting beaten by start of part II Sakura and Chiyo and  later, his admittedly piss poor showing in the war arc. The problem here  is that people often forget that, in his first fight, Sasori would have  likely killed both Sakura and Chiyo while still in hiruko if the latter  didn't have perfect knowledge of it. If not then, he would have most  certainly killed the two of them if Sakura didn't have an antidote to  the poison — even when he lost, Chiyo implied that he actually fell into  her trap on purpose. The entirety of the fight was tailoured against  him, and he still would have (hypothetically) won. With Kankurō, I just  think the fight was poorly written; he had none of his arsenal left, got  confident because of his apparent immortality and his physical ability  was arguably degraded by his status as an edo tensei zombie.

To answer the question of the thread: no, I don't think Sasori is overrated. If anything, I think he's underrated; both by Kishimoto and the forum in general.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 26, 2015)

First of all, most of the Akatsuki members were put into extremely disadvantageous positions. Nearly all of them had a bad matchup, started at a disadvantage or were later thwarted by reinforcements. You couldn't really name a single member that fought on equal terms. Deidara fought Gaara in the desert low on clay, Raiton user (deactivates clay) & Uchiha (Sharingan views C4). Hidan lost his immortality knowledge advantage nigh instantly against Team Asuma because of a randomized ambush. Kakuzu's Domu heart was destroyed by Kakashi (Raiton > Earth) 15 seconds into the second conflict and Naruto/Yamato interfered before he could obliterate 3 leaf ninja. Itachi planned his own death. Kisame was matched against the greatest Taijutsu specialist in the manga (Daikodan & Chakra Sapping irrelevant) without Samehada. Konan lost to an asspull Izanagi by Obito. Pain fought a Sage with full knowledge & prep while Deva Path started powerless and with intent to only capture him (could not use killer intent). 

I don't believe a special skill set is required to defeat Sasori. 

Most of the Akatsuki can defeat him on equal terms - including his own partner. It's no longer "special" when most of your organization can defeat you. 

Granted a single scratch is rather deadly - so is a drop of blood attained from Hidan - the weakest of the Akatsuki and arguably any S-rank rogue. 

Without knowledge, 
>Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi are nearly certain one-panels
>99% of the verse fires Ninjutsu into Daikodan and are wiped out
>A literal handful of characters survive C4
>Hidan can blindside 95% of people that mark him as dead & attain their blood
>Kakuzu can blindside *at least twice* (initially thought dead- blindsides, external hearts rushing to his lifeless body a second time- blindsides)
>Konan can kill 99% of the verse with canon prep
>Obito can avoid 99% of the verses' offense with his one eye alone and a literal handful avoid his subsequent touch-warp
>A literal handful of characters survive CST

Without knowledge everyone in the Akatsuki is as dangerous as him. 

The only thing that makes him relevant among the strongest is his Kazekage puppet. Hiruko doesn't even have the feats to scratch most Low-kages, and his 100-puppet technique leaves him completely stationary to the point of having to transfer his heart to avoid death by a thrown seal contraption- with nothing but slow puppets and melee-range attacks (swords) to defend it. Assuming he does land a scratch- will he even survive long enough to see his poison take hold if he's a sitting duck?

Without the Kazekage puppet he would literally lose to everyone in the Akatsuki- including Hidan (who is impervious to poison).

That being said, he is at the bottom of the Mid-kage class- and it's not because of his poison- it's because of Iron Sand's Bullet speed (too quick for Chiyo to avoid) which would kill most by impaling their vitals/maiming them- and they would die well before the 3-day poisoning completes it's death cycle.

He's overrated by some, I see quite a few put him above Kakuzu and even Kisame, which is unbelievable in my opinion. He hasn't the versatility nor speed to really compete with either of them.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 26, 2015)

I don't necessarily believe Iron Sand speed is the enemy.

 I personally do believe it's the idea that Iron Sand is somewhat unpredictable as Sasori can manipulate it into whatever he wants. This is clear when Sakura was rendered unable to dodge and Chiyo only being capable of reacting successfully due to having knowledge and experience of dealing with Sasori's puppetry. This is also emphasized later as Sakura who managed to react to Sasori's Iron Sand without Chiyo's assistance was nearly killed off by Sasori's most potent Iron Sand due to his ability to manipulate such a wide AoE and corner his opponent from various angles which makes the attack deadly. Poison just makes things worse. 

 Sure, Sakura managed to evade Sasori's Iron Sand without Chiyo's Assistance, but we have to ask ourselves, "Are there that many people that were trained specifically in evasive maneuvers, and is there really that many people that are capable of analyzing Sasori's finger movements instantly?"

 I'm willing to bet there's really only a minority that can effectively evade Sasori's Iron Sand and precisely analyze his finger movements and those are really people such as 3 Tomoe Kakashi (arguably), Hebi Sasuke, Itachi, SM Naruto, and Gaara etc. and those are individuals whose reactions are enhanced in order to foresee an attack or in Gaara's case, has the ability to muster up an absolute defense that covers all areas as well as his Mother's Will providing an automatic defense.

 Most Kage Level ninja such as Kisame, Mei, Orochimaru, Jiraiya (Base), Deidara (on foot), Hidan, Darui etc. would all struggle evading the technique.

 Edit: Damn, after reading this thread and formulating my analysis, I feel bad for underrating Sasori.


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't necessarily believe Iron Sand speed is the enemy.


Satetsu is suppose to be fast though. It's attacks rely on massive magentic repelling force and are compared to the speed of Sound in the DB. And while the DB is certainly hyperbolic in many instances, the comparison is still clearly suppose to indicate that the technique is fast and it might not even be all that hyperbolic in this case, because Satetsu does seem to create a sonic boom here:
[1]



> Sure, Sakura managed to evade Sasori's Iron Sand without Chiyo's Assistance,


Sakura didn't evade any Satetsu Techniques w/o Chiyo's assistance. In-fact Sakura never evaded anything period w/o Chiyo's assistance, ether controlling her directly or saving her ass with puppets. And even with Chiyo's assistance she and Chiyo failed numerous times to avoid Sasori's attacks.



> 'm willing to bet there's really only a minority that can effectively evade Sasori's Iron Sand and precisely analyze his finger movements and those are really people such as 3 Tomoe Kakashi (arguably), Hebi Sasuke, Itachi, SM Naruto, and Gaara etc. and those are individuals whose reactions are enhanced in order to foresee an attack or in Gaara's case, has the ability to muster up an absolute defense that covers all areas as well as his Mother's Will providing an automatic defense.


I really doubt any of these individuals can evade all the different Satetsu Techniques Sandaime-Kazekage/Puppet can use. In the case of Sasuke, Gaara, Kakashi, and Itachi, I really doubt they can consistently avoid Satetsu Shigure, with the amount of Satetsu Bullets [or whatever shapes the user desires] being formed at any given time. The attacks are too numerous and versatile considering their speed, for me to believe these characters are capable of that. Same thing with the larger AOE Satetsu techniques like Kaihou, which just covers too large of an area and even if they evade the initially explosive burst of Satetsu, it would now be all around them enabling the user to attack simultaneous from all directions, which I also can't see any of them evading.

SM-Naruto is the only one I give decent odds to being able to evade, but over time as more Satetsu is gather even he should start to have issues. Defending is another discussion tho.

Edit: Another thing people should keep in mind about Sasori's puppets is it was stated all of his human puppets could use the jutsu they had when alive, considering Sasori had 298 puppets, he probably had thousands of jutsu at his disposal and when using 100 puppets, could draw on these thousands of jutsu in combat. Unfortanately he never got the chance to show very much of this, because he was chakra sealed and than allowed himself to be killed, before he could use 100 puppets for very long tho.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 27, 2015)

Sakura avoided some of his Red Army and got close enough to his puppet body to throw a seal contraption that forced him to heart transfer- he could not react by blocking it with a puppet. 

The speed and unpredictability of his Iron Sand is a problem, but it's not fast enough to outright blitz anyone in the Akatsuki. Struggling is one thing, but considering most of them don't need to avoid it (Konan & Hidan poison immunity, Itachi Susano/Amaterasu/Katon, Kisame blocks with Samehada/Sution, Deidara blocks with C1 explosion, Obito Kamuis, Nagato S/Ts) that's pretty much irrelevant.

Sasori's shunshin and reaction speed is so poor he'd struggle to escape the CQC of various Low-kage levels, let alone the Mid-kage levels NarutoX28 suggested- that's where the weakness of his technique comes into play. 

It's not just the Akatsuki though, plenty of ninja have high-speed destructive techniques capable of defending against it- even Chiyo showcased this proficiency with mere chakra shields and puppets.

Base Jiraiya, Deidara on foot and Darui I agree with though, they would struggle to avoid it with speed. However, all three have techniques capable of preventing it from scratching them- Summoning (Gamaken's shield), C1 Explosives & Laser Circus all serve to destroy/divert the projectiles- assuming they're used in time (Jiraiya's is unlikely depending on the distance- but Yomi Numa & Dragon Katon serve to keep Sasori off balance to not allow this technique to develop against him). Without knowledge and in-close (15m) the Iron Sand would probably scratch all three of them, as Chiyo barely avoided/countered it *with knowledge*. The rest you suggested would avoid it with speed or otherwise always counter it with their own Ninjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 27, 2015)

@Turrin

 I was hinting more towards the idea of Iron Sand's unpredictability making it more threatening than it's speed. I never once stated Iron Sand wasn't that fast though I can understand why you would interpret it that way. 

 [1]

 She did and that seems further emphasized through the next 2 or so pages that highlights her evasive training with Tsunade.

Edit: Damn Viz for ninja'ing me.

 You do bring up a good point as I didn't take into account the various techniques one can use to counter it. I'm not sure whether or not one can attempt a viable ninjutsu before Iron Sand strikes considering Chiyo with knowledge and experience on Sasori's puppetry could only form the technique at the last minute from a fairly respectable range. Gamaken's Shield I would think is easily negated due to Sasori's manipulation of Iron Sand which allows him to strike from different angles. It's really the unpredictability of the technique that makes it deadly. Laser Circus is debatable, but considering it's pathetic feats of not even blowing Kingaku into pieces, I highly doubt it would counter Iron Sand. Iron Sand can literally withstand the blunt force of Sakura's physical strength without even getting a dent on it. That's impressive durability.

 Edit #2: I do agree however, that Sasori's showings without Iron Sand weren't too impressive.


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## Suu (Apr 27, 2015)

The OP of this thread appears to be assessing Sasori solely based upon how he'd fare in battle against his fellow Akatsuki members.

Is this the only measure with which we should judge his standing amongst his Akatsuki peers?

I mean, if you think about Akatsuki's goal (at least, for the time that Sasori was part of it), it was to collect tailed beasts for world domination. So, really, we should also judge Sasori on his effectiveness in defeating and capturing (but not killing) Jinchuuriki, as well as how he'd fare in battle against the hidden villages generally (assuming they would stand in the way of "world domination").

As a poison user, he is perhaps one of the best-equipped of the Akatsuki to capture a target without outright killing them, allowing for subsequent Bijuu extraction. His use of puppets would theoretically make him fantastic at capture-type scenarios, due to his extensive knowledge and use of traps and whatnot. He also had a jutsu that involved him embedding a tiny needle in another person's brain, essentially turning them into a sleeper agent, which would have been useful in all sorts of circumstances (i.e. gathering information about Jinchuuriki whereabouts, or foiling a hidden village's attempts at protecting/rescuing their Jinchuuriki). 

As for facing an all-out-war/battle scenario, Sasori once again is amongst Akatsuki's best-equipped at facing hordes of enemies, with his wide-sweeping Iron Sand attacks, as well as his ability to summon an entire army of his own. He's even outright stated that he's taken down an entire country with his puppets before (although we don't quite know the details of this). 

I'm not going to try and rank Sasori amongst his peers in the Akatsuki, but I do believe that there is more we should consider when trying to determine whether or not he is, in the OP's own words, "one of Akatsuki's elite".


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## BrokenBonds (Apr 27, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> *He beats the weakest (Kakuzu*/Hidan/Zetsu) but I just find it hard to believe he can beat the rest of Akatsuki.


This is a bit off-topic but, looking through this thread, I didn't know so many people on NF think so lowly of Kakuzu. I always figured he was one of the stronger Akatsuki members..?


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sakura avoided some of his Red Army and got close enough to his puppet body to throw a seal contraption that forced him to heart transfer- he could not react by blocking it with a puppet.


Sakura last a brief instance against 100 puppets, with their being 11 other targets on the field to split Sasori's attention and at the expense of Chiyo being poisoned. She than land on ineffective attack against Sasori and Sasori landed a death blow on her. Thee only reason Chiyo and Sakura survived 100-Puppets, is because Sasori got emotional for understanable reasons and slipped up allowing them to hit him. Otherwise 100 Puppets owned Sakura and Chiyo.



> The speed and unpredictability of his Iron Sand is a problem, but it's not fast enough to outright blitz anyone in the Akatsuki.


Yes, yes it is. Chiyo has a 4 in speed, she couldn't evade Satetsu Shigure, even with being able to predict Sasori's movements, and had to rely on chakra-shield to defend herself. That already puts the speed of Satetsu well above a 4 in speed. Like wise the faster Satetsu Shigure and more difficult to evade Kaihou, she couldn't even move her puppets faster than, which move faster than herself, thus putting those attacks as vastly far above what a 4 in speed could evade. Most Akatsuki are <= 4.5 in speed, and would therefore be incapable of evading many of Sasori's Satetsu attacks. 

And bare in mind Satetsu Kaihou was accomplished by Sasori only using a bit of his chakra and is nowhere close to what he can actually do.



> truggling is one thing, but considering most of them don't need to avoid it (Konan & Hidan poison immunity, Itachi Susano/Amaterasu/Katon, Kisame blocks with Samehada/Sution, Deidara blocks with C1 explosion, Obito Kamuis, Nagato S/Ts) that's pretty much irrelevant.


Where does Hidan show poison immunity? And even if he was he is rendered immobile by Satetsu's magnetic force

Konan would just get shredded by Satetsu, poison isn't necessary.

Sand types as Gaara showed can't be absorbed, so Kisame is screwed.

C1 won't block a solid mass of Iron being propelled by insane magentic force at Deidara.

Obito and Nagato are gimmie's they aren't loosing to Satetsu.

Itachi is the only one around Sasori's "level" that has a good defend against Satetsu, but even than I wonder how the magnetic force would effect Susano'o and whether Sasori is smart enough to attack Susano'o w/ it from bellow as Gaara did with his Sand to Madara.



> Sasori's shunshin and reaction speed is so poor he'd struggle to escape the CQC of various Low-kage levels, let alone the Mid-kage levels NarutoX28 suggested- that's where the weakness of his technique comes into play.


This is completely baseless. The guy casually dodged Kessho being super punched at his ass and has a 4.5 in the DB speed wise with his puppets and Satetsu moving even faster than that. Sasori was never even hit by Sakura and Chiyo besides when getting emotional, and Chiyo is a 4 in speed with her puppets moving even faster than that.

Sasori's reactions and speed are more than capable of keeping up with any Mid-Kage, sans the absolute speed demons, but for them he has other potential avenues for victory.



> It's not just the Akatsuki though, plenty of ninja have high-speed destructive techniques capable of defending against it- even Chiyo showcased this proficiency with mere chakra shields and puppets.


Mere Chakra Shields and Puppets? When exactly did Chakra shields show they were not impressive? And Chiyo's puppet manipulation was only second to Sasori's and her 10 puppet collection is extremely powerful. Even than Chiyo failed to defend Sasori's attacks many times throughout their battle and only won due to emotional reasons. 

Suddenly were underrating Sasori, because a Low-Kage like Chiyo whose specifically well suited to facing him was able to defend against a few of his attacks, but ultimately failed time and time again, and even with help and antidotes would have still lost to him, specifically due to her failure to defend many of his attacks. Come on bruv, this is not a fair assessment.

@NarutoX28
See my response to Viz. Besides that Yes I forgot she evaded that one Kessho Block, but that was literally Sasori's slowest and must straight-forward attack and immediately after that she was again hit by Kaihou the moment Sasori used only a bit of chakra


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## Matty (Apr 28, 2015)

I might be the biggest Sasori fan here... It's simple (even with bias) 

Pain/Obito

Itachi

Sasori/Kakuzu/Kisame

Konan/Hidan

Zetsu

I personally think Sasori bests Itachi with high difficulty just because he is literally that guys worst nightmare (impervious to genjutsu against a heavy genjutsu user and unlimited stamina) but it doesn't mean he's all around better, just means that he is a bad matchup.

Personally, to me, anyone saying Kakuzu is one of the weakest members is an idiot.

And finally no Sasori is not overrated he's underrated. I honestly think most of the Akatsuki is underrated, even Hidan. And especially when ranking Akatsuki it really comes down to the fact that he was the first villain in Shippuden to be taken down really and his terrible Edo performance really hurts him. But all in all, he was one of the most well rounded characters in terms of actual skill, back story, and unique ability/appearance. I really liked him (as well as all of the akatsuki) 

P.S. Anyone who says Hidan is Jonin level is funny. The guy is low kage at best, and I dislike him more than anyone in the Akatsuki. You're telling me a guy that needs a drop of blood to kill you, is immortal, and wields a scythe that can extend to pretty impressive ranges is jonin? Laughable, that guy kills nearly anyone without prior knowledge to his ability. No one is going to try and decapitate someone right off the bat like that. The problem is he's slow and the ritual seems to take set up time. So there is that. But still, Not jonin, low kage at least.


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## desertraider669 (Apr 28, 2015)

Well as you see by my picture you know my opinion xD but lets look into it:
First Sasori as a teen: Defeats third Kazekage (2nd strongest not much evedence suggesting 3rd better than gaara) with a basic puppet at a very young age.
Next Sasori vs Konan: Sasori had no knowledge of Konan jutsu and isn't puppet form, form anime fight we see no iron and, mybe he didn't know how to use at young age? Konan kirbstomps since sasori only used conventional attacks.
Next Sasori in prime... well,
Hiruko, 3rd Kazekage, 4 scrolls: Fire, Water, 100 puppets, unkown, high chakra level (i doubt he has infinate chakra and stamina, his heart may be a chakra bank) and he has one hell of a brain.
What makes Sasori feared isn't necessarily his combat skills but his analytic mind, since he has knowledge of all over Akatsuki members he has a high chance of coming up with 20 plans for each one. 
So first: Vs Deidara. 
What does Deidara have? Explosive chakra, that seems to be it, he shows no earth stle moves but explosive style. Sasori could potentially win low-dif. His puppet can reach long lengths and his water cannon can reach as high as the clouds, since his arms move faster then Deidara he can hit him in flight, Deidara pulls out C3, iron sand protects sasori (as gaara sand protects village and Sasori has more chakra than Gaara) Also Chiyo said the iron sand can form into ANY shape needed...like a shield. C4 is useless since sasori has no lungs, also Sasori can fly? We see him fly to chiyo but only because he had a lot of momentum from his poison cable, yet it showed him hover when Sakura pulled cable  form him, so yeah Sasori wins low diff, poison unnecessary it would just be overkill.

Vs Konan: So konan is immune to conventional attacks. Technically Sasori could survive sea of paper bombs if he can use same complete sphere shield like gaara (and as Chiyo suggests he can) but that is highly debatable, but as far as it goes, Konans only bet is sea of paper boms, sasori had a LOT of techniques. Nothing suggests Konan is immune to poison, one scratch and she's paralized, if he manages to surround he with iron sand she can't escape thus dies imo, Sasori can really only rely on brains, his puppet body can withsand conventional attacks unless aiming for his heart, so this fight could go either way, i'd say Sasori is much cleverer therefor could plan into Konans death also he is emotionless and has no hesitation, Konan is shown to be affectionate, although not to Sasori but it could still factor in. Konan surrounds him his blades can attack, also his iron sand can move at the speed of sound (according to wiki) i don't actually think konan can transfrorm that quick so sasori can pelt with iron sand shower and maybe win? But i'd say it could go either way.

Vs Kismae xD oh boy, well Kisame not samehada infused is mince meat, water style probs can't penetrate iron sand wall, and poison can put Kisame down, Samehade has no real effect as his puppet should keep long range combat busy, but can samehada eat chakra strings ? is so Sasori must resort to his body, high heat intensity and range, high water intensity and range 100 puppets are just overwhelming, Kisame has lots of Chakra and power but all 100 poison puppets while taking iron sand up the butt and fire in the face, i guess kisame has little chance though kisame has monstrous chakra and can literally create a small ocean. Sasori can elevate above using his cable though so i guess if he stays above water it would help... but then...
Samehada infused Kisame xD That is a one way kirb stomping, sasori can't do anything, the only thing Sasori can do is tightly plant his cable into the ground and (n lungs) use it to move around at speed inside the water bubble, no problem breathing though. But Kisame is damn quick, also its not shown how a  puppet can fare in water o.O but i'm guessing not well, iron sand i'm not sure about, there are to many uncertaintys but i'm pretty sure kisame wins hands down.

I think you underestimate kakuzu way to much tho, kakuzu had very powerful techniques and moves at bloody high speeds awakened but i guess Sasori could win mid-dif.

Sasori vs Nagato? Nagato almighy pushed the shit outta him, all the 6 paths could overwhelm, i'm not sure is poison smoke could catch Pain of guard if so gg pain, actaully Sasori could dominate all paths but maybe Deva path. All paths together > Sasori, Sasori> single paths

Saori vs Itachi, Can sasori be affected by Genjutsu? If so gg sasori if not gg itachi. All itachi really has is fire style and genjutsu, his taijutsu is useless. Susanoo' takes up Alot of chakra but Sasori couldn't touch his so i guess with Itachis general skill gg Sasori itachi > Sasori

But how it goes: 
Sasori > Deidara
Sasori > Hidan
Sasori> Kakuzu
Sasori> Single paths of pain
6 paths> Sasori
Itachi> Sasori
Sasori> Kisame
Kisame samehada infused> Sasori
Konan=Sasori
Obito >>>>>Sasori
Zetsu ??? Sasori

^Not sure what would even happen :/ ^

To anwer the question you seem to be off with the ranking, Sasori is highly underated, due to him being beaten by konan and "beaten" by Sakura and chiyo people often give him the shizzle end of the stick. Also you seem to be of with Kakuzu, ur ranking seems to underestimate pretty powerful charecters. In comparison to other Akatsuki Sasori is bottom of the high tear, maybe 5th out of 10, Kakuzu is probs slightly lower but still pretty powerful.
Compared to the narutoverse he is usually underestimated, he had so much potential but kishi was like "lol lets screw him over lets let him die ep 27 out of <400 xD" Most Akatsuki forums he is seen top tier at many times since akatsuki forums usually contain people that actually know the Akatsuki. 
He is S-rank, he is Kage rank, he is the strongest Sand ninja ever (tho people say gaara is stronger than him xD) and he is damn right awesome with his "who gives a shit" attitude, he is underrated af.

edit: Alot are basing his power on Sasori vs Sakura and Chiyo... plz don't. Yes he was defeated since: Chiyo had wide knowledge, Sakura had healing + super strength, 2v1, Sasori was emo and commited suicide since he wanted to be a puppet, he clearly wasn't even trying... His quotes from the fights show how little he cared about everything. 
+ This is the anime... Where everything is slow af We saw Sasori pelt with iron sand shower and sakura and chiyo were hanging by a thread, yet Sasori woved on to another technique and gave them time to recover, irl (well kinda real life) Sasori would pelt all day long gg sakura and chiyo, Sasori wind hands down, he Suicided, his loss proves as little as Sakura actually being useful in the whole naruto universe XD

Edit 2: wow people actually basing him of of edo tensei xD wtf even bro. Edo tensai, had no puppet body so restricts 100 puppets and 3 other scrolls, he didn't have 3rd kazekage and had no control over clay bird, thos who rate Sasoris power with his edo performance need to get brain checked, anyway he was proper stoned in edo form xD well he looked it anyway, i don't think he even gave a shit about being sealed then.
Also people say he lacks speed? As said above, iron sand = speed of sound, also who cares about speed, he can protect himself perm with irom sand and poison smoke cloud all around, also add to Kisame vs sasori, Kismae has to breath under water, is Sasoris poison gets into the water kismae is fucked, so yeah Sasori might actually win.


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## Hazuki (Apr 28, 2015)

yes i think sasori is overrated 

first of all he was a nice guy in the end and had regret 

and second , i don't understand why people don't trust him when deidara said "  he is stronger than me " 

even in edo tensei sasori always felt much superiror to deidara 

even deidara knowing that sasori had a weak point he always felt inferior to him 

deidara a guy fucking arrogant bug he shut his mouth in front of sasori ...

but right now most of people still believe that deidara is stronger just because he can fly or can use this jutsu ...  that's just pure fan fic 


when orochimaru admit his inferiority to itachi , everyone were agree , but when deidara admit his inferiority in front of sasori  , most of people prefere to ignore that 

nice logic

even sasori don't care about itachi , and he know very well that he can be a very big threat  to the uchiha


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2015)

Deidara can spit out explosives that send out millions of microscopic bombs over a massive area, that eradicate everything on a cellular level. He can also create clay clones that self-destruct and create massive explosions. That isn't even factoring in how he can take to the skies, move at impressive speeds, and make it _rain_ explosives over the battlefield below.

Compared to him, Sasori's offense simply isn't as impressive. He is no doubt powerful, and as Suu noted, he was exceptionally skilled at incapacitating his victims with poison, making him very good at his job. In that respect, he might have been superior to Deidara. In sheer might, however, Deidara is surely stronger.

I personally think Sasori is slightly over-rated. I see people placing him above the likes of Mei Terumi, Danzou, Kisame and Konan on tier lists, when in reality he should be below all of these shinobi. He is a Low Kage Level ninja, not a Mid-Kage Level one.​​


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## Rocky (Apr 28, 2015)

Sasori would stomp three of them (Danzo is High Kage) the moment he brought out the poisoned Iron Sand. Kisame & Konan outright lose to Satetsu Shigure; it's too fast to avoid and Kisame cannot absorb it with Samehada. Mei could also lose to that, but even assuming she could counter with a lare Suiton jutsu like Water Wall, she can do _nothing_ against Satetsu Kaihō


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## Veracity (Apr 28, 2015)

I don't think " stomp " is a good term for what would happen when Sasori battles against any given Kage level opponent; as they could possibly kill him before he actually pulls out the big guns.I could easily see Hiruko being vaporized by acid mist in a plausible scenario against Mei.


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## Rocky (Apr 28, 2015)

I forgot about Hiruko. Mei probably can't dodge those traps without getting scratched. Even if she does and the mist melts all the way through Hiruko, it wouldn't kill Sasori inside.


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## desertraider669 (Apr 28, 2015)

If hiruko were vapourised then Sasori would just jump out and bring out the bbig guns, hiuko isn't attached to him, Sasori can summon him at any time.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasori would stomp three of them (Danzo is High Kage) the moment he brought out the poisoned Iron Sand. Kisame & Konan outright lose to Satetsu Shigure; it's too fast to avoid and Kisame cannot absorb it with Samehada. Mei could also lose to that, but even assuming she could counter with a lare Suiton jutsu like Water Wall, she can do _nothing_ against Satetsu Kaihō



Danzou most definitely is not a High Kage, unless you believe that he can use Kotoamatsukami to manipulate his opponents mid-battle. Personally, I don't. He's a Low Mid Kage, or a High Low Kage. Certainly no higher than that.

Konan has a paper body and can scatter around the battlefield, making all of Sasori's physical attacks fruitless efforts. Kisame can spit out lakes, nullifying Sasori's puppets and giving him the opportunity to blitz underwater. 

Mei spews a sheet of lava over Hiruko, meaning Sasori will absolutely get hit by it, even if he tries to leave the puppet body. Alternatively she uses the Hidden Mist, blinds him so that she can't be targeted with projectiles, and then gradually kills him with the acidic mist. Youton/Suiton can also be used to deflect projectiles that are fired towards her. Satetsu Kaihou is only an issue if Mei allowed him to use it, but he'd never get that far unless he had full knowledge of all of her abilities, and then used it off the bat.​​


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## Rocky (Apr 28, 2015)

What's your definition of high Kage?

Konan turning into paper does not nullify Sasori's offense. You ever taken a machine gun to sheets of paper? Kisame vomiting large volumes of water likewise does nothing to stall Sasori's offensive techniques when he can just stand on top of the lake.

Sasori can just evade Mei's lava, or jump out of Hiruko is it's too slow to consistently avoid. Hidden Mist would just blind Mei herself, which would make it impossible to maneuver around the poisoned traps or Iron Sand that can come from different directions all at once. 

Suiton or Yoton may be able to block Hiruko's stuff, but Iron Sand would tear right through it and continue on its way to Mei. Drizzle is small, so it's feasible that Mei could block that, but at that point Sasori could just use Kaiho.


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## Turrin (Apr 28, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Deidara can spit out explosives that send out millions of microscopic bombs over a massive area, that eradicate everything on a cellular level. He can also create clay clones that self-destruct and create massive explosions. That isn't even factoring in how he can take to the skies, move at impressive speeds, and make it _rain_ explosives over the battlefield below.​



Very few characters short of God-Tier can compare to Deidara in offensive might. Deidara weakness was never offense, it was constant misuse of that offense, crippling weakness to Raiton due to lacking any notable moves outside of Kibaku-Nendo, and lacking defensive skills that in any way measure to his offense or really any of the characters he gets matched up against in the NBD.

And before you cite flight Godaime, that may have been fine back in the days of early Part II, but as things progressed plenty of shinobi gained or showed powerful long-range skills, so that doesn't fly anymore. But fuck Sasori can do that to for the same reason Gaara states he could always fly on his sand, anyway. So literally Deidara's best offensive ability, is just one of Sasori's.

Sasori is stronger than Deidara, by Deidara own admission, because his defensive skills vastly outweigh Deidara's, his skills are less one note and therefore do not have a crippling weakness, and he is a much more experienced fighter

There is a reason why Kishi went out of his way to justify Sasori's loss to the ambush-sqaud, but felt completely comfortable giving Deidara no excuse, as the fight perfectly highlights the weaknesses Deidara has as a fighter, while Sasori needs to be nerfed.



> I see people placing him above the likes of Mei Terumi, Danzou, Kisame and Konan on tier lists, when in reality he should be below all of these shinobi. He is a Low Kage Level ninja, not a Mid-Kage Level one.


Because he is above them, except Danzo which I won't even get into the maddening underration that is placing a man who for all intents and purposes force a draw with MS-Sasuke even w/o his strongest Jutsu at Low-Kage, and perhaps the unratable Konan due to lack of panel time

None of them have accomplishments that compare to his and none of them have as dangerous of a fighting style, unless against specific opponents or under very bias conditions.



> Konan has a paper body and can scatter around the battlefield, making all of Sasori's physical attacks fruitless efforts


This is absolutely silly. Satetsu shreds her paper no diff. If Konan were to truly be above Sasori it would not be due to her paper-body.



> Kisame can spit out lakes, nullifying Sasori's puppets and giving him the opportunity to blitz underwater.


How does a lake nullify Sasori's puppets? Satetsu hard counters chakra absorption the same way Gaara's sand couldn't be absorbed by a much superior chakra Rinnegan chakra absorption technique and poison bypasses Kisame's regeneration. Sasori certainly has the tools to beat Kisame and the only chance Kisame has is if he's in range to absorb the chakra strings and if he can indeed do so, which quite frankly would make Kisame Sasori's worst match up.



> Mei spews a sheet of lava over Hiruko, meaning Sasori will absolutely get hit by it, even if he tries to leave the puppet body.


And Sasori just stands there allowing her to do so, the match just happens to start in range of Youton, which Sasori has no knowledge off. This is insanely bias and not something I expect from you Godaime.

And assuming it does happen Sasori just escapes Hiroku and pulls out Sandaime-Kazekage



> Alternatively she uses the Hidden Mist, blinds him so that she can't be targeted with projectiles


Literally one of Hiroku's main attacks is a projectile that sends needles in every direction, like wise one of Sandaime-Kazekage's main attacks is a Satetsu Technique that send Satetsu in every direction. Yet for some inexplicable reason Sasori will use nether when confronted by the mist 



> Youton/Suiton can also be used to deflect projectiles that are fired towards her.


Sure if she knows the nature of his attacks being poisonous, otherwise she could simply attempt to evade and pay no mind to being scratched, resulting in her demise.  



> Satetsu Kaihou is only an issue if Mei allowed him to use it, but he'd never get that far unless he had full knowledge of all of her abilities, and then used it off the bat.


Wouldn't get that far. If Mei uses demonic mist, he will use Cluster-Bomb, if that doesn't work he'll use go for Satetsu Kaihou. If Mei does not use Mist, than she will have a tough time avoiding attacks w/o a scratch in a no knowledge scenario. In a knowledge scenario he'd go for Satetsu right off the bat due to Mei's threat. 

So yes chances are he will get that far, or Mei will be having a tough time with his other attacks.

Mei's only hope is Futton in a no knowledge scenario, but Mei can potentially kill many shinobi in a no knowledge scenario w/ Futton, and she is equally exposed to being one-shotted by Sasori only needing to scratch her once in a no knowledge scenario. So even in thee most idea scenario for Mei her odds are about 50/50 [or less]. In every other scenario, Mei is loosing and badly at that, as she lacks any defense against Satetsu.

And as far as portrayal goes Sandaime-Kazekage is stronger than Mei, Sasori beat him and than became stronger integrating Sandaime's technique into his arsenal. There is a limit to how far one can stray from the mangaka's intent Godaime and I really did not expect this from you.​


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## Puppetry (Apr 28, 2015)

Kisame's Suiton jutsu are great at tossing people around and exhausting them through overwhelming force, but Sasori's stamina (in terms of fighting duration, if not quantity) is comparable to Kisame's and guided, piercing Satetsu spears and puppets shouldn't have a problem sifting through walls of water. 

Konan is similarly lacking in damage output, but without the immense scale to compensate.

Mei actually poses the greatest threat to Sasori, but again, her most damaging moves are neither large, outrageously powerful, or fast. She also has the weakest evasive and defensive maneuvers of the three.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What's your definition of high Kage



Itachi, Minato, Sage Mode Naruto, Killer Bee etc.



> Konan turning into paper does not nullify Sasori's offense. You ever taken a machine gun to sheets of paper?



That's not what I meant. If Sasori goes to shoot needles/Iron Sand at her then she divides into hundreds upon hundreds of sheets of paper and scatters around the battlefield. At that point, it becomes impossible to target her. On the other hand, she can quite easily sneak an explosive tag onto him at some point while he's distracted trying to target her various divisions.



> Kisame vomiting large volumes of water likewise does nothing to stall Sasori's offensive techniques when he can just stand on top of the lake.



If they're in a building or any sort of enclosed area, then Sasori doesn't have the luxury of being able to stand on top of it, because it floods the arena. On the other hand, in an open area, Kisame can still manipulate the water into a Suirō Sameodori and keep Sasori underwater. Or alternatively bury him with a Suiton: Senshokukō which he has no way of dodging either. 



> Sasori can just evade Mei's lava, or jump out of Hiruko is it's too slow to consistently avoid.



The lava isn't slow, nor is Hiruko puppet overly fast on its feet. Mei can control the direction that the lava moves in too; if she forces him into the air, further evasion becomes impossible. Likewise, she can douse the area around Hiruko in lava, making it difficult to move around the field without being caught. Though, I'm honestly not quite sure if Hiruko is fast enough to repeatedly dodge, I never saw any impressive evasion or speed feats from it. 



> Hidden Mist would just blind Mei herself, which would make it impossible to maneuver around the poisoned traps or Iron Sand that can come from different directions all at once.



Thats fine if you think that, but I personally find it extremely hard to believe that a _Mizukage_ would be incapable of manoeuvring around in the Hidden Mist Technique, a basic technique which is the _speciality_ of Kirigakure shinobi. Zabuza was capable of manoeuvring inside the Mist, allowing him to use the Silent Killing technique to attack Team 7. I don't see why Mei couldn't realistically do the same to Sasori using her ninjutsu. As with most other ninjutsu, the user of Kirigakure no Jutsu is probably less affected than the target.

In the unlikely event that she couldn't target/see Sasori, she merely has to use acid mist over a wide area, and she has undoubtedly caught him. Unless Sasori used Satetsu Kaihou as soon as the Hidden Mist was brought out, Mei is in no real danger. 



> Suiton or Yoton may be able to block Hiruko's stuff, but Iron Sand would tear right through it and continue on its way to Mei. Drizzle is small, so it's feasible that Mei could block that, but at that point Sasori could just use Kaiho.



True, it would, but he'd probably never get far enough to bring out Kazekage puppet in the first place, never mind Satetsu Kaihou. In any IC situation, he'd be dead inside Hiruko puppet near the beginning of the match, or failing that, soon after he sheds his Hiruko armour.​​


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Itachi, Minato, Sage Mode Naruto, Killer Bee etc.



I would agree, and I would include Danzo there because of Izanagi. It isn't debatable if we're including Koto Amatsukami.

MS Sasuke is Sage Naruto's equal (and is easily capable of fighting everyone else in that tier), and all he could manage was a draw with a Koto-less Danzo. There is nobody in the Low/Mid Kage border that the same Sasuke wouldn't steamroll. 

I know that was ABC logic, but seriously, Danzo matched up _horribly_ against Sasuke. Susano'o cockblocks blindsiding, and genjutsu is the only way Danzo could be tricked into acting recklessly. 



> That's not what I meant. If Sasori goes to shoot needles/Iron Sand at her then she divides into hundreds upon hundreds of sheets of paper and scatters around the battlefield. At that point, it becomes impossible to target her. On the other hand, she can quite easily sneak an explosive tag onto him at some point while he's distracted trying to target her various divisions.



It's unlikely that she could disperse in time to avoid getting torn up when she couldn't even manage to get out of the way of Base J-dog's oil. Furthermore, dispersing may not be something that even stops Sasori from hitting her, as many of his attacks _need_ _not_ target.



> Suirō Sameodori...Suiton: Senshokukō



I wasn't accounting for either of those techniques because I'm not so sure he can even use them without absorbing Biju chakra first (or having access to an actual ocean.)

If he can make use of them, then sure, I'd agree that Sasori would fall should he be faced with them. That said, he wouldn't face them because an IC, kenjutsu-happy Kisame would probably be scratched by one of Hiruko's traps _long_ before he'd ever start throwing around tidal waves of sharks.




> The lava isn't slow, nor is Hiruko puppet overly fast on its feet. Mei can control the direction that the lava moves in too; if she forces him into the air, further evasion becomes impossible. Likewise, she can douse the area around Hiruko in lava, making it difficult to move around the field without being caught. Though, I'm honestly not quite sure if Hiruko is fast enough to repeatedly dodge, I never saw any impressive evasion or speed feats from it.



If you notice, I had doubts that Hiruko couldn't repeatedly dodge it myself, which is why I said Sasori would probably leave it in order to make use of his own 4.5/5 speed.




> Thats fine if you think that, but I personally find it extremely hard to believe that a _Mizukage_ would be incapable of manoeuvring around in the Hidden Mist Technique



Zabuza couldn't see in the mist; the silent killing technique is reliant on locating an enemy using sound. 



> In the unlikely event that she couldn't target/see Sasori, she merely has to use acid mist over a wide area, and she has undoubtedly caught him. Unless Sasori used Satetsu Kaihou as soon as the Hidden Mist was brought out, Mei is in no real danger.



If Sasori can no longer see Mei, I see absolutely no reason he wouldn't start throwing omnidirectional attacks at her. They're already difficult to dodge, and now she can't see. Since they're omnidirectional, _he_ doesn't need to see himself, making them perfect for the situation. 



> True, it would, but he'd probably never get far enough to bring out Kazekage puppet in the first place, never mind Satetsu Kaihou. In any IC situation, he'd be dead inside Hiruko puppet near the beginning of the match, or failing that, soon after he sheds his Hiruko armour.



There's more of a chance that Sasori kills Mei with Hiruko than Mei obliterating Sasori before facing the Kazekage.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I would agree, and I would include Danzo there because of Izanagi. It isn't debatable if we're including Koto Amatsukami.



Nah, he's at least a tier below all of those shinobi.



> MS Sasuke is Sage Naruto's equal (and is easily capable of fighting everyone else in that tier), and all he could manage was a draw with a Koto-less Danzo. There is nobody in the Low/Mid Kage border that the same Sasuke wouldn't steamroll.



MS Sasuke might be able to give SM Naruto a good fight (I'm unsure if he's actually his _equal_), but then I'd argue that pretty much anyone in the Mid-Kage/High Low Kage bracket could do the same thing - to varying degrees, obviously. MS Sasuke, likewise, would not steamroll anyone in the High Low Kage/Mid Kage tier. The likes of Onoki, Gaara, Ei, Seven Gated Gai, Mei, Kisame etc. etc. are not getting steamrolled, they're giving him a tough fight. 



> I know that was ABC logic, but seriously, Danzo matched up _horribly_ against Sasuke. Susano'o cockblocks blindsiding, and genjutsu is the only way Danzo could be tricked into acting recklessly.



I disagree. Susano'o cockblocks blindsighting against any opponent, not just Danzou. That means Ei/Sandaime Raikage being unable to ambush MS Sasuke from behind with his speed, or Kakuzu being unable to overwhelm him from different angles with his elemental masks, Sakura/Tsunade incapable of using their playing dead tactics etc etc. Danzou used Izanagi to catch his opponents off guard, but most high level shinobi use other methods to do the exact same thing.



> It's unlikely that she could disperse in time to avoid getting torn up when she couldn't even manage to get out of the way of Base J-dog's oil.



Yet she managed _to react to Obito's Kamui_ later on in the manga. Her reaction time is better than she's given credit for. 



> Furthermore, dispersing may not be something that even stops Sasori from hitting her, as many of his attacks _need_ _not_ target.



You say " many " of his attacks need no target, but to my recollection, those two that you linked are the only ones in his arsenal that disperse in an erratic fashion like that. Otherwise, he needs to aim at his opponent first. Actually, when she's dispersed into various sheets of paper she can turn herself into projectile forms that are as hard as steel, and then deflect whatever is shot at her. 




> I wasn't accounting for either of those techniques because I'm not so sure he can even use them without absorbing Biju chakra first (or having access to an actual ocean.)



I don't see why he would. 30% Kisame _effortlessly spat out a massive tidal wave_, so 100% Kisame, even without having absorbed any chakra, should be able to do the same thing on a much bigger scale. He wasn't called a 'bijuu without a tail' because of his chakra suction abilities, but rather because he had an abnormally large chakra reserve to begin with.



> If he can make use of them, then sure, I'd agree that Sasori would fall should he be faced with them. That said, he wouldn't face them because an IC, kenjutsu-happy Kisame would probably be scratched by one of Hiruko's traps _long_ before he'd ever start throwing around tidal waves of sharks.



Not true, Kisame spat out an ocean at Team 10 (opponents he had almost no knowledge of) almost as soon as he engaged them in combat, while his first move against Gai on the Turtle Island was also a suiton. If he's at any sort of distance he's going to use suitons, while Kenjutsu will only be used if he starts his battle against Sasori a couple of meters way from him. Then again, in any IC situation Kisame is going to have pre-existing knowledge that Sasori is a poison expert. He might not risk going up close and using Kenjutsu in the event that he gets scratched.




> If you notice, I had doubts that Hiruko couldn't repeatedly dodge it myself, which is why I said Sasori would probably leave it in order to make use of his own 4.5/5 speed.



He could dodge Youton in his true form, but once he leaves Hiruko he's easily targeted by Mei's Suitons, which are both too big and too fast for Sasori to evade, 4.5 in speed or not. Suitons may not inflict much damage to him, but they are useful for knocking him around and rag-dolling him, making him susceptible for more potent follow up attacks. 



> Zabuza couldn't see in the mist; the silent killing technique is reliant on locating an enemy using sound.



Which Mei should be capable of doing.



> If Sasori can no longer see Mei, I see absolutely no reason he wouldn't start throwing omnidirectional attacks at her. They're already difficult to dodge, and now she can't see. Since they're omnidirectional, _he_ doesn't need to see himself, making them perfect for the situation.



It really depends on who brings their moves out faster. While Sasori has to summon the Kazekage puppet, expel a large amount of Iron Sand and then manipulate it into Satetsu Kaihou, Mei can expel her ninjutsu almost straight away. She should be able to get her attacks out before Sasori even has time to use Satetsu Shigure, and by the time he does use it, his heart cavity and Kazekage puppet are going to be being eaten away by her Kōmu no Jutsu. I'm unsure if he'd still be capable of attacking at that point.

As a side note, Mei has enough mastery over doton that she can actually mix it with katon in order to create a new element. And given that every shinobi in the alliance was capable of learning an extremely basic doton technique mid-battle, I'm not wrong to suggest that an elemental ninjutsu expert like Mei is capable of using at least some basic doton techniques. The Hiding Like a Mole or Double Suicide Decapitation techniques are basic, low rank jutsu that most ninjutsu proficient shinobi are able to use (Orochimaru, Kakashi, Kabuto, Deidara, Obito, Sai etc.). I'd say Mei could go underground to avoid being impaled by Satetsu Kaihou.




> There's more of a chance that Sasori kills Mei with Hiruko than Mei obliterating Sasori before facing the Kazekage.



There's more of a chance that Kōmu seeps through Hiruko puppets joints and kills Sasori while Mei hides in a mist and defends herself with suiton/doton/youton, than Sasori being able to overcome her ninjutsu defences and hit her with poison before her Kōmu kills him. Alternatively, there's more of a chance that Youton plasters Hiruko puppet and then scalds Sasori as he tries to escape, than Hiruko puppet successfully dodging several blasts of Youton and Sasori then escaping the armour unharmed (the only time we saw Sasori quickly exit the armour was when it was physically destroyed first).​​


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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2015)

> (I'm unsure if he's actually his equal),



He is not according to the manga. Especially if you factor his feats during the War in, then he is no less than a tier
above MS Sasuke's level.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't see why he would. 30% Kisame _effortlessly spat out a massive tidal wave_, so 100% Kisame, even without having absorbed any chakra, should be able to do the same thing on a much bigger scale. He wasn't called a 'bijuu without a tail' because of his chakra suction abilities, but rather because he had an abnormally large chakra reserve to begin with.


No he was called a Bijuu-w/o a tail due to his chakra stealing abilities:

Kisame: The stronger... my opponent, the stronger I myself become... // I never tire...... and I never fall.
Sab: His sword steals chakra from his opponent... // ...and transfers it to the wielder in the form of stamina...?!
Kisame: That's why... people have taken to calling me the "Tailless Bijuu"......



> MS Sasuke might be able to give SM Naruto a good fight (I'm unsure if he's actually his equal), but then I'd argue that pretty much anyone in the Mid-Kage/High Low Kage bracket could do the same thing - to varying degrees, obviously. MS Sasuke, likewise, would not steamroll anyone in the High Low Kage/Mid Kage tier. The likes of Onoki, Gaara, Ei, Seven Gated Gai, Mei, Kisame etc. etc. are not getting steamrolled, they're giving him a tough fight.


Also what is the point of a your tiers, if a Low-Kage can still give a good fight to someone who is 2 Tiers above them as High-Kage-Tier. 

The whole point of a tier, is that characters on the same tier can give each other a good fight, but there are some variation in overall strength.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Nah, he's at least a tier below all of those shinobi. MS Sasuke might be able to give SM Naruto a good fight (I'm unsure if he's actually his _equal_), but then I'd argue that pretty much anyone in the Mid-Kage/High Low Kage bracket could do the same thing - to varying degrees, obviously. MS Sasuke, likewise, would not steamroll anyone in the High Low Kage/Mid Kage tier. The likes of Onoki, Gaara, Ei, Seven Gated Gai, Mei, Kisame etc. etc. are not getting steamrolled, they're giving him a tough fight.



Nobody on the Low/Mid Kage border would give _anybody_ in the High Kage tier a good fight. That doesn't make any sense. The very fact that there's essentially a two tier gap between them suggests the opposite. 

Sage Naruto said he and Sasuke would only end up killing each other and that he'd need Kurama's Chakra to achieve victory, so yeah, they're equals in my book. 

Oh, and Onoki, A, and Gai are all sitting at the_ top_ of Mid Kage. There's no debate on whether or not they should be in the tier. You got Mei's placement correct, but she gets's steamrolled by Stage 3 Susano'o.



> I disagree. Susano'o cockblocks blindsighting against any opponent, not just Danzou.



That doesn't mean that Sasuke all of a sudden becomes an easy match up for Danzo. Susano'o may prevent being ambushed by anyone, but not _everyone_ had a fighting style centered around popping up behind somebody. Sasuke's a horrid match up for A & Tsunade too, but that doesn't mean it isn't the same for Danzo;



> Yet she managed _to react to Obito's Kamui_ later on in the manga. Her reaction time is better than she's given credit for.



She reacted to Jiraiya's oil by blocking, and she reacted to Obito's Kamui (with full knowledge of the technique) by attempting to blow herself up. Neither of those things well help her evade getting torn up by Iron Sand Drizzle.



> You say " many " of his attacks need no target, but to my recollection, those two that you linked are the only ones in his arsenal that disperse in an erratic fashion like that. Otherwise, he needs to aim at his opponent first.



I'm sorry, I should have said "some" of his attacks. My point doesn't change though. 



> Not true, Kisame spat out an ocean at Team 10 (opponents he had almost no knowledge of) almost as soon as he engaged them in combat, while his first move against Gai on the Turtle Island was also a suiton. If he's at any sort of distance he's going to use suitons, while Kenjutsu will only be used if he starts his battle against Sasori a couple of meters way from him. Then again, in any IC situation Kisame is going to have pre-existing knowledge that Sasori is a poison expert. He might not risk going up close and using Kenjutsu in the event that he gets scratched.



He didn't have his sword against Gai on Turtle Isalnd, and against B & Asuma he began with Kenjutsu. Against all of team Gai, he altered the battlefield by spewing that lake, but he didn't begin spamming gigantic Suitonjutsu. He fought Gai up close, and the only water techs he made use of were Water Prison & the smaller sharks.  



> He could dodge Youton in his true form, but once he leaves Hiruko he's easily targeted by Mei's Suitons, which are both too big and too fast for Sasori to evade, 4.5 in speed or not. Suitons may not inflict much damage to him, but they are useful for knocking him around and rag-dolling him, making him susceptible for more potent follow up attacks.



...and why are they too fast for Sasori to evade? Not that I'm saying they definitely aren't, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

Regardless, Iron Sand can tear through the water like I said previously. 



> She should be able to get her attacks out before Sasori even has time to use Satetsu Shigure, and by the time he does use it, his heart cavity and Kazekage puppet are going to be being eaten away by her Kōmu no Jutsu. I'm unsure if he'd still be capable of attacking at that point.



Jesus, how quickly do you think that acid goes to work? Sasori should be able to notice somethings amiss if he_ starts melting_, and he should be able to back out of the acidic mist with Shunshin. If Mei opts to put up a blinding Hidden Mist before she spews the acid, Sasori should then have time to actually take his puppet out and begin attacking with Iron Sand.



> I'd say Mei could go underground to avoid being impaled by Satetsu Kaihou.



Yeah, it's possible, but arguing like this opens the door for me going on to say things like "A blasts Onoki out of the sky with Suiton: Teppōdama" or even shit like "Tobirama puts up the Hidden Mist and uses sensing to track down his opponent." 

Characters can't just use things they haven't shown unless they're heavily implied to have it access to it. Otherwise, let's give Tsunade Kage Bunshin. I'll give you that's it's possible that there's _some_ elemental technique in Mei's arsenal that may help her avoid Satetsu, but it's only theory.


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## desertraider669 (Apr 29, 2015)

In  terms of Sasori vs mei, i'd say Sasori if knowing meis techniques wouldn't even start of in hiruko, Judging by the way he thinks, Sasori most likely comes prepared with knowledge, 3rd puppet wuld probably be out instantly, Also meis lava style isn't as fast as you make it seem, Yes flooding the room with lava may put Sasori down but in terms of doing that i'd say that would be a lot of Chakra used. There is evidence on wiki of Iron sand drizzle travelling at the speed of sound, yet if Sasori were to beat mei he would actually have a higher chance in full puppet form. His poison cable can travel pretty fast and is maneuverable so that might even get mei, if mei dodges however  Sasori can use the cable to launch himself at mei at a pretty high speed, he can also use this technique to evade an attack. In terms of mist, i doub't Sasori would stand still long enough for the  acid to take place, for Acidic mist to actually be effective it would ideally e in closed room and short spaces (like mei vs Sasuke in corridor) but in large places the acidic mist can easuly be evaded before it takes a huge effect.
Not only this but in a closed place Sasori has the advantage of poison, he claims to have more than 1 store of poison, if mist is effective in small places, poison is even more, mei has no where to run and if she is already cut then the poison will enter the blood stream stopping all movement and mist will dissapear.
In terms of scrolls, Sasori fire scross was so intense it could burn a Kunai when thrown, idk about you but in a closed space ideal for acid, thats pretty lethal for mei, also his water scroll can reach clouds and cut rock... so yeah mei better hope she has: lots of chakra, lots of stamina, an open space xD and  plenty of speed. if not gg.
So closed space, Sasori has poison, intense flames and Iron unleash can destroy the room.
In open space he has a puppet, still poison, water scrolls and 100 puppets.
Hiruko is irrelevant, i doubt he would even try fight a kage in that.
Hidden mist? Sasori can't see? Iron unleash, remember in the anime fights are ALOT slower than they should be (for drama) His iron unleash set up can be pretty quick. If mei even try touching him he can poison the room and use iron unleash.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2015)

Mei's Youton landed on a wooden table and it didn't instantly melt, it took time to melt:
_not_

Even Mei's stronger pressurized Youton blast didn't immediately melt the surrounding wood:
_not_ 

Futton likewise did not immediately melt through the stone walls of the Kage summit room:
_not_

The substance puppets are made out off is much harder and more durable than wood. On-top of that Hiroku specifically is armor reinforced; to reinforce Hiroku's durability Chiyo specifically said she could not break through it's shell by herself despite commanding powerful chakra weapons and the like via her puppets. Hiroku will not be instantly destroyed by Youton or Futton. If it's hit with Youton it will last long enough for Sasori to escape, and if it's hit by Futton it will last long enough for Sasori to get out of the cloud. Mei's attacks are really only melt flesh and chakra constructs super fast [note DBIV says they are specifically well suited to melting chakra constructions, hence why they melt Susano'o faster than the rock wall, despite Susano'o being more durable].

The idea that Sasori goes down to ether of these techniques while in Hiroku is silly. They will force Sasori out of Hiroku, but than he'll pull Satetsu.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 29, 2015)

Sasori kills strongest Kazekage in the middle of Suna without anybody noticing
Upgrades and then adds his signature ability to his arsenal
"Low Kage"
d

I guess 3rd KK is just Elite Jonin. While 1st, 2nd and 4th are simple Jonins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 29, 2015)

No offense Turrin, I have nothing against you personally, but any time I enter a debate with you it ends up in massive TLDRs that span over long periods of time. I don't have the energy or enthusiasm for that right now, so I'd rather not enter any kind of dicussion with you. .


EDIT: Rocky, I'll reply to you later.​​


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## Icegaze (Apr 29, 2015)

I think most underrate sasori based on who he lost to. While the likes of turrin overrate him based on an idea of some global perspective and some other such false exaggerated conceptions 

I got 6 things to say tjough 
1) 3rd party fighters for better perspective than people directly in the fight . Bee saving Ei = chiyo saving Sakura 
2) chakra strings means Sakura could be pulled back regardless of her actual position or reactions 
3) chiyo is a more experienced puppet user 
4) chiyo got full knowledge on satetsu which means she knew not to use weapons 
Why this is very important is because like toroi who is a fodder once his weapon hits metal it magnetises not only the metal in hand but the user making the next attack impossible to avoid 
Iron sand should hold the same principle if some fodder jiton allows for such 
So most ninja with metal weapons and no knowledge are very vulnerable to being trolled by sasori. Hebi sasuke comes to mind 
He btw would loose properly to sasori with no knowledge 
5) the 298 other puppets are irrelevant kazekage puppet the strongest as stated by sasori 
6) tsunade has indept puppet knowledge and trained Sakura hence Sakura knowing just from the fingers where the attack will come from something most ninja don't know as it isn't a stated weakness of puppets 

Now with that I'll say sasori is stronger than Deidara and should beat him in a fight . Kisame should be beat sasori though I consider sasori more of a general threat 

Sasori utterly stomps Mei casually
Unlike Sakura Mei cannot predict any pattern of sasori attack nor can she overwhelm his own 

Lastly sasori effectively killed Sakura twice and chiyo once lets not forget all it takes is a scratch 

Note turrin I only say u overrate him mostly cuz u think he stands the slightest chance against itachi . He doesn't use his sand like gaara and gets stomped with v1 susanoo


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> While the likes of turrin overrate him based on an idea of some global perspective and some other such false exaggerated conceptions


Global perspective, what does that even mean lol?

I rate Sasori based on 3 things.

1) The fact that he defeated the Kazekage that "towers above" the others in strength. And while "towers above" may or may not be Kishi's flair for the dramatic the statement is clearly suppose to indicate Sandaime Kazekage's strength was above the other Kazekage by a big enough margin that there was no doubt whatsoever that he's the strongest. It's hard to rate the other Kazekage, but at the bare minimum we have Rasa to go off of, and while he certainly wasn't one of the strongest Kages, he proved worthy of the title and was able to defeat a Bijuu. So being well above Rasa in strength should at least place Sandaime-Kazekage at Mid-Kage, Sasori became much stronger after beating him, so that should place him among the stronger Mid-Kages at minimum. 

At maximum he could be higher, because Shodai and Nindaime Kazekages could easily be stronger than Rasa, and that would push Sandaime-Kazekage up higher and by proxy push Sasori higher, especially if match up played a role, which it easily could have because conceptually Satetsu is a terrible match up for Sasori's fighting style [pre-sandaime-kazekage-puppet], due to Satetsu's magnetic force being capable of rending metal weapons useless, which makes up most of Sasori's traps and puppet arsenal we saw; or alternatively if it wasn't a bad match up than Sasori's puppets may have more techniques and combos we didn't see that are Kage-Class, such as his other human-puppets being able to cast relatively formidable jutsu [at least in groups], which also raises his standings. So that creates a range for me, for Sasori's capabilities, where at minimum he's among the stronger Mid-Kages, and at maximum he could be among thee absolute strongest Mid-Kages, or what some people call High-Kage.

2) Whenever someone only needs to scratch someone to win, they become incredibly formidable. We've seen characters with skills and jutsu that are easier to evade and defend, than Sasori's shown techniques relatively easily scratch very powerful enemies, such as Itachi's basic Katon-Shuriken technique scratching Killer-B, or Itachi nearly scratching KCM-Naruto with just basic Taijutsu. Or Hidan easily scratching Asuma with just scythe, whose otherwise above Hidan in every way besides durability. To name just a few examples. 

3) Sasori still never being pushed to show the full scope of his abilities against an enemy like Chiyo, who i'd consider Low-Kage [I.E. not chop liver], when she was so well suited to facing him; extreme knowledge/experience of puppet techniques and Satetsu, having multiple antidotes to Sasori's poison, and having the help of support specialist like Sakura. Sasori still would have won that fight if not for PNJ, and he didn't use 195 [or whatever] of his puppets,  when using Satetsu he only used one technique that he put any noteworthy amount of chakra into and even than it was only according to him a "bit" of chakra, and his human puppets were stated to have all the techniques they had when alive, yet because Sasori only used 100 puppets briefly he only got a chance to show puppets using traps and chakra weapons. Based on that it is clear we never saw Sasori's best, yet even when not using his best, his performance places him among the stronger Mid-Kages, due to how disadvantaged he was. So once again we have the same range, off at minimum he's among the stronger Mid-Kages, and at maximum he's among the absolute strongest Mid-Kages [or High-Kages if you prefer].

I think that's a very fair placement given these above 3 points and how far the author went out of his way to hype Sasori's accomplishments, considering I didn't even go into his hype of soloing a country with 100 Puppets, Deidara admitting inferiority to the guy, or Orochimaru going out of his way to stage an ambush for him, which is a clear sign of respect for his capabilities, especially if Orochimaru and Kabuto are indeed immune to his poison [or have antidotes]. After all it's not like i'm saying the guy is on Nagato's "level" or God-Tier "level", i'm simply saying he should be able to put up a good fight against most Mid-Kages or at absolute best be close to the strongest like Jiraiya, Tobirama, Itachi [not as sick], Minato, Prime-Hiruzen, Prime-Hanzo, etc..., which really if someone who beat the Strongest-Kazekage and than became much stronger, didn't at least have the upside potential to being that truly makes Sunagakuru look absolutely Fodderific in comparison to the other Hidden Villages. And while I do think Sunagakuru is on average the weakest village, I can't imagine it's that far behind a village like Kirigakuru, and even if we assume Gengetsu was the strongest Mizukage ever [though there is nothing for or against that], someone who beat Gengetsu and became much stronger, would certainly be among the Top-Mid Kages [or High-Kages], and I don't see that changing even if we assume Sandaime-Kazekage is weaker than Gengetsu by a bit, due to Kiri > Suna.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> No offense Turrin, I have nothing against you personally, but any time I enter a debate with you it ends up in massive TLDRs that span over long periods of time. I don't have the energy or enthusiasm for that right now, so I'd rather not enter any kind of dicussion with you. .​



You don't have to respond to me, I'm just supporting Rocky, because I think he's more on point here than you, in this instance.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 30, 2015)

@turrin 
1) you rate him on his defeating the kazekage however could have been an ambush or poison . All he would need to do is collect the body . It doesn't state it was a direct fight . It couldn't have been 
Sasori uses puppets iron sand trolls puppets by default. Clearly was poison , or a stab behind the back. 

2) Itachi shirkuen tech tech scratched killer bee because one it is sharingan controlled therefore can alter its direction 
And bee blocked because no risk of poison 

You seem to forget that people will fight a poison user a lot more carefully than they would a non poison user. Same way ninja don't go CQC with a byakugan user. So it's like me saying jukken is super hax and Neji could win 
Cuz when person A pubches person B if that was jukken Neji could have 1 panelled 
Eg: when jugo punched bee 

However bee would never let himself be hit by Neji Cuz Neji hit carries a risk that jugo punch doesn't 

Same thing for poison here. Kisame or anyone who can avoid it has no need to run at hiruko needles . He can submerge or barf a lake . It's silly to assume anyone who can avoid getting scratched will run the risk of being scratched

All puppet users . Use poison it's common knowledge .

3) sasori showed his strongest human puppet and his strongest Jutsu 
What ever else he didn't show won't make him stronger 

If his 2 best Jutsu were shown and handled with good reason by a more experienced puppet user no reason to assume the others would be even useful 

Sasori said so himself . Once the 3rd was defeated he said another human puppet would be a waste of time


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @turrin
> 1) you rate him on his defeating the kazekage however could have been an ambush or poison . All he would need to do is collect the body . It doesn't state it was a direct fight . It couldn't have been
> Sasori uses puppets iron sand trolls puppets by default. Clearly was poison , or a stab behind the back.


The manga offers absolutely no evidence of an ambush and it was specifically brought up in context of hyping Sasori. So I'm going to call this fanficition.



> Itachi shirkuen tech tech scratched killer bee because one it is sharingan controlled therefore can alter its direction


Direction altering had nothing to do with it.



> And bee blocked because no risk of poison


Yes and unless someone has knowledge of Sasori's poison they can easily make the same mistake, which was my point.



> All puppet users . Use poison it's common knowledge .


Please show one panel suggesting that this is the case. It's also certainly not common knowledge that Satetsu is poisoned.



> sasori showed his strongest human puppet and his strongest Jutsu
> What ever else he didn't show won't make him stronger


He only used a bit of chakra with his strongest shown Satetsu tech, so he likely has stronger Satetsu attacks. He only used 100 puppets for a short period of time, and had 195 still waiting in the wings. So yes these things potentially could make him stronger.



> Sasori said so himself . Once the 3rd was defeated he said another human puppet would be a waste of time


I never said he had a single human puppet stronger than third, so I don't know what your arguing against.

What I said was when using 100 Human-puppets at once the combined techniques of multiple Human-Puppets will be deadly. Like-wise he probably has other human-puppets which are ideal for certain situations and against certain opponents, Jutsu, despite none measuring up to the Third in strength.


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## Icegaze (Apr 30, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The manga offers absolutely no evidence of an ambush and it was specifically brought up in context of hyping Sasori. So I'm going to call this fanficition.
> 
> 
> Direction altering had nothing to do with it.
> ...



You seem confused 
100 puppets are basic puppets not human puppets 
So using them for 1 min or 10 sasori showed all they could show 

Feel free to show sasori and kazekage fight . It could have been very situational so I don't get why u holding on to it 

Kankuro a bloody Genin puppet user used poison . Shine was aware he used poison 

Satetsu being poisoned yes no one can expect that I agree to that one can't lie . 

So yes people might go for blocking satetsu when they need to avoid it 

Sasori is mid level just above Kisame .


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> You seem confused
> 100 puppets are basic puppets not human puppets
> So using them for 1 min or 10 sasori showed all they could show
> .


Panel that says they aren't human-puppets, despite that being Sasori's entire stick.



> Feel free to show sasori and kazekage fight . It could have been very situational so I don't get why u holding on to it


Because it's clearly presented as hype in the story. If Kishi wanted us to not look it as hype he would have indicated such, but he does not.



> Kankuro a bloody Genin puppet user used poison . Shine was aware he used poison


Cool and bloody Gennin hid shuriken in his Katon, that doesn't mean every Katon users hide Shuriken in their Katon. Just like Kankuro using poison doesn't mean every puppet users uses poison.



> Satetsu being poisoned yes no one can expect that I agree to that one can't lie .


So that alone is enough to illustrate my point



> Sasori is mid level just above Kisame .


And I place him around Mid-Kage to Top-Mid-Kage, so what is your problem exactly?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 30, 2015)

Sasori said it would be useless to use any more human puppets if they beat the 3rd Kazekage, implying that the 100 puppets he used next were not human puppets.​


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasori said it would be useless to use any more human puppets if they beat the 3rd Kazekage, implying that the 100 puppets he used next were not human puppets.​


He than proceeded to use himself which is indeed a human puppet. So i'm fairly certain what Sasori meant is that Chiyo and Sakura already defeated his strongest Human-Puppet so there was no point in simply pulling out one more individual human-puppet. Though when I get a chance I'll check the raw if you link me to the page.


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## Icegaze (Apr 30, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Panel that says they aren't human-puppets, despite that being Sasori's entire stick.
> 
> 
> Because it's clearly presented as hype in the story. If Kishi wanted us to not look it as hype he would have indicated such, but he does not.
> ...



So you assume without any proof that all sasori puppets are human puppets 


Hiruko isn't a human puppet though . 

Why assume all his puppets are human puppets ? And if they are they have shown no Jutsu or implied to have any . IF they did sasori would have won without trying . 

Hidding a shirkuen in kunai isn't the same as using poison which is a basic poison user requirement 

The fact that kishi shows a Genin using poison in his weapons to me goes to show puppet users using poison isn't uncommon 

Now satetsu being poisoned will be a straight up shock to anyone same for its magnetic properties 

I already told u my problem he isn't doing anytbinf but die against the likes of itachi 

tbh ur ranking confuses me considering u consider Minato to be mid Kage tier which is hilarious if sasori with far less achievement and lesser Jutsu is considered top mid tier


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So you assume without any proof that all sasori puppets are human puppets


Maybe I didn't make this clear enough but I don't think all 100 are necessarily human-puppets [tho they could be], I simply think that out of his 298 puppets, he has many more human-puppets than just himself and Sandaime-Kazekage, that he can use or was using alongside his 100 puppets. Because the Data-book [and the Manga] says so:

Sasori eventually came down to fabricating puppet*s* out of the deceased. 



> Hiruko isn't a human puppet though .


I never said all of his puppets are human puppets.



> And if they are they have shown no Jutsu or implied to have any


Dude Sasori used 100 puppets for an incredibly brief period of time, I sincerely doubt we've seen all of their traps, let alone any potential Jutsu.



> IF they did sasori would have won without trying .


Sasori would have easily won w/ 100 puppets if not for getting emotional and allow himself to be hit.



> Hidding a shirkuen in kunai isn't the same as using poison which is a basic poison user requirement


Kankuro is not a poison user, he is puppet user. Your trying to assert that being a puppet user is synonymous with being a poison user, but the manga never states that's the case. 



> The fact that kishi shows a Genin using poison in his weapons to me goes to show puppet users using poison isn't uncommon


Kankuro also walked around all the time with his Puppet disguised as himself and himself disguised as his puppet. We clearly dod not see every puppet user, utilizing that same trick. Chiyo does not do this and while Sasori walks around as Hiroku, and some people think he is Hiroku, he does not make an effort to disguise Hiroku to look like himself. 

So Kankuro doing something does not mean every puppet user does the same thing. We've only seen three puppet users in the entire manga, unless you count Fu [who didn't use poison]. That's way to small of a sample size to make a judgement on what is common place among puppet users; unless you wish to argue that puppet users are rare, but if that is the case than it wouldn't be common knowledge they use poison anyway, because they are extremely rare.



> I already told u my problem he isn't doing anytbinf but die against the likes of itac


I've more than explained my reasoning for why Sasori is a threat to Itachi, especially a Hebi-Sasuke fight Itachi. And if your problem is just my view on how well Sasori can perform against Itachi, that has nothing to do with my placement of Sasori and has everything to do with our views simply differing on a single character's capabilities [Namely Itachi].



> tbh ur ranking confuses me


It's very simple. What some people call High-Kage, I call Upper to Top Mid-Kage, because I think the characters others call Mid-Kage stand too good of chance of defeating the characters people typically call High-Kage, to warrant an entire tier difference. 



> considering u consider Minato to be mid Kage tier which is hilarious if sasori with far less achievement and lesser Jutsu is considered top mid tier


Well let's go over their achievements shall we.

Minato was implied stronger than Ei. I do not consider it likely that Ei is stronger than thee Kazekage that towers above all other Kazekage. So quite frankly I don't think Minato being > Ei, is any better of an accomplishment if even comparable, to what Sasori did when he was much weaker.

Minato also "beat" MS-Obito. MS-Obito is stronger than Sandaime-Kazekage, but Minato was a terrible match up for MS-Obito, which is why he could land blows on him so easily, while the combined might of B, Gai, Kakashi, and KCM/BM-Naruto could not. On the flip side of this while Sandaime-Kazekage is a horrible match up for Sasori and Sasori was much weaker when he defeated him. So to me these accomplishments are actually not vastly far apart with all things considered. Do I think Minato's accomplishment is better, perhaps, depending on how strong Sandaime-Kazekage really was, but I've always thought Minato was likely stronger than Sasori anyway, as I said Sasori is at best around Minato, though probably at least a bit weaker.

Beyond that Minato has great accomplishments against mass fodder in the war, but Sasori solo'd a country of Fodder, so to me that's negligible.


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## Rocky (Apr 30, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I do not consider it likely that Ei is stronger than thee Kazekage that towers above all other Kazekage.



Why, portrayal? A is debatably strongest Raikage, and unarguably top two. Who is better between him and his father depends on the specific match up. The extra firepower helps against some, while the extra speed helps against others.

Even if A is the weaker one, there's not much of a drop off. It's basically unanimously agreed upon that A would push Akatsuki Sasori's shit in, and he's a fusion of the 3rd Kazekage & the person that beat the 3rd Kazekage.


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## Trojan (Apr 30, 2015)

> Beyond that Minato has great accomplishments against mass fodder in the war, but Sasori solo'd a country of Fodder, so to me that's negligible.



> implying defeating one of the strongest 5 nations' army is just as good as defeating civilians fodders from random village. Oh, Turrin. 
For all we know it could have been like this
[YOUTUBE]iBhIY6RTfRI[/YOUTUBE]
wasn't

starting from 14:30 

compared to fodders that are capable of doing this. 




> Minato also "beat" MS-Obito. MS-Obito is stronger than Sandaime-Kazekage, but Minato was a terrible match up for MS-Obito, which is why he could land blows on him so easily, while the combined might of B, Gai, Kakashi, and KCM/BM-Naruto could not. On the flip side of this while Sandaime-Kazekage is a horrible match up for Sasori and Sasori was much weaker when he defeated him. So to me these accomplishments are actually not vastly far apart with all things considered. Do I think Minato's accomplishment is better, perhaps, depending on how strong Sandaime-Kazekage really was, but I've always thought Minato was likely stronger than Sasori anyway, as I said Sasori is at best around Minato, though probably at least a bit weaker.



So, obito was not a bad match up to Minato with a superior S/T jutsu, surprise attack, a Bijuu, and hostages?


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## Turrin (May 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why, portrayal? A is debatably strongest Raikage


No he's not Sandaime-Raikage is unquestionably stronger.



> and unarguably top two.


It's completely arguable, as we've never seen what Nindaime or Shodai Raikage were capable off. So he may or may not be top 2. Literally there is no argument for or against it. But ether way I doubt the 2nd-Strongest Raikage is much stronger [if even as strong] than the Kazekage that towers above the others in strength, and that Kazekage was defeated by a Sasori who is type disadvantaged and was much weaker.



> Who is better between him and his father depends on the specific match up. The extra firepower helps against some, while the extra speed helps against others.


It's not a matter of just extra fire-power. Sandaime is more durable, has more stamina, has hax amber sealing jar, and is more versatile with Kurokaminari. 



> It's basically unanimously agreed upon that A would push Akatsuki Sasori's shit in, and he's a fusion of the 3rd Kazekage & the person that beat the 3rd Kazekage.


Ei is a bad match up for Sasori, due to him being difficult to scratch thanks to RNY. Even still I think Sasori would likely beat Ei due to Satetsu and other techniques. Speed is overrated in the NDB, which is the reason why Ei is overrated, despite really having no where near Sasori's accomplishments or plethora of powerful techniques.

Ei would likely start a match with Sasori in Base or R1. RNY would deflect Hiroku's Cluster-Bomb no diff and he'd smash Hiroku. But at that point Sasori would know his threat and pull out the Kazekage and Satetsu. Satetsu blocks all of Ei's attacks as he lacks the raw-power to get through it and Sasori can also use it to fly and distance himself from Ei who lacks any ranged game whatsoever. Even if Ei manages to smash Sasori with an attack before this happens, Sasori would just reform and could even potentially turn this into a chance to ambush Ei. Once Satetsu is out it's only a matter of time until Sasori has gathered enough Satetsu to create a great enough AOE to scratch Ei with it. Could Ei win under certain conditions, like-Full knowledge and short, sure he could, but under most conditions Sasori's odds are better. Full-Knowledge at Mid or Long, Sasori will have Satetsu out to defend before Ei smashes his heart container. No knowledge the above scenario is likely to be how the match goes under almost all conditions.



Hussain said:


> > implying defeating one of the strongest 5 nations' army


Minato never solo'd Iwagakuru's army. His biggest accomplishment was quickly soloing 50-Fodder, and you should count yourself lucky that i'm equating that to soloing a country. In-fact re-thinking it Sasori's feat is better.



> starting from 14:30


Please don't bring filler BS in here.



> compared to fodders that are capable of doing this


50-Fodder vs an Entire Country.



> So, obito was not a bad match up to Minato with a superior S/T jutsu, surprise attack, a Bijuu, and hostages


Minato did not have to fight Kurama at the same time as Obito, so that point is moot. Surprise attack didn't help Obito as Minato sensed it, so that point is moot. Hostages didn't factor into when the fight actually took place, so that point is moot.

Superior S/T Jutsu in the sense that it doesn't require tags, but for practicality in that fight it didn't matter. Minato beat Obito because he is a speed specialist and was a mil-second faster than Obito, because of it.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

@turrin please explain what u mean by he can use other puppets along side his 100 puppets 
I don't he can do that if not he would have. 100 puppets is his strongest JUtsu that takes his full focus he can't combine anytbin with it 

Dude it's possible but Considering puppet traps aren't that impressive 

Hidden senbon, Mecha arms, hidden kunai and what not 

No poison gas for sure or he would have gassed the shit out of Sakura . Would be too easy if his or any of the 100 puppets had poison gas . Hence why I said u got some global Unshown perspective . You assume there must be more but every character has more to show than they did . Minato being one of those characters

Yet u dismiss his hakke and other seal haxx because they weren't shown. Why different with Sasori

You are right about kankuro . I drop that argument . Well done there 

Minato achievement stopping kumo from retrieving kyuubi 
Ending the war against Rock village . =defeated 1000 ninja ( Hussain already showed this to you )
Stopped kyuubi rampage against konoha
Trolled Ei to the point EI called him a savoir and a legendary ninja 
Jiriaya considered him a savoir . You know the same guy who thought a kid with rinnegan and ultimate God naruto to be saviors. Minato was stacked up with them as an unbeatable ninja . EI an arrogant prick didn't even say I can't beat him. But minato can never be beat as a general statement 

Also 3rd kazekage being the strongest is true however Suna is the weakest village so i see no reason to believe he would be stronger than Raikage simply because he is the strongest of his village . Suna is the weakest village of the 5 .


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## Trojan (May 1, 2015)

> [=Turrin;53492615]
> Minato never solo'd Iwagakuru's army. His biggest accomplishment was quickly soloing 50-Fodder, and you should count yourself lucky that i'm equating that to soloing a country. In-fact re-thinking it Sasori's feat is better.


We have gone through that already Turrin. 




> p149
> ↑They say the 4th had marvellous speed and defeated enemies in a blink. Because of the fleetness, this jutsu remains to be completely elucidated.
> 
> ↓Its impossible for anyone not to be astonished at him defeating scores of troops too easily, perhaps.
> ...





> Please don't bring filler BS in here.


Which is why I said "for all we know". A fact however that the city Sasori defeated is not one of the 5 nations. That's more than enough. 


> 50-Fodder vs an Entire Country.


yes, fodders that defeated Konoha's ninja before Minato's arrival Vs a fodder country. Sure, Turrin. 



> Minato did not have to fight Kurama at the same time as Obito, so that point is moot. Surprise attack didn't help Obito as Minato sensed it, so that point is moot. Hostages didn't factor into when the fight actually took place, so that point is moot.


So? He still had to deal with his TBB which made Obito able to sneak behind his back. He was still thinking about his village, and removing Kurama from Obito's control...etc 

Yes, Minat sensed it, and still Obito caught him. 
lol, yeah sure, because Minato was able to save his Kid, and himself means everyone can do that which leads to say that he is none factor. Are you being series now?  



> Superior S/T Jutsu in the sense that it doesn't require tags, but for practicality in that fight it didn't matter. Minato beat Obito because he is a speed specialist and was a mil-second faster than Obito, because of it.[



Yes it did matter because it's what made obito go throw Minato's attack, go inside konoha, escaping the fight, taking Kurama to konoha....etc etc. 

by your logic none of the Kazekage's advantages count either because Sasori dealt with them.


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## Trojan (May 1, 2015)

oh, and by the way thinking just because a Kazekage is the strongest Kazekage making him better than a Raikage (even if he is not the strongest) is obviously ridiculous. There is a big gap in power scale between the villages, and Suna is the weakest.


What does being the leader of the Ostriches matter against a member of a herd of lions? 

Edit:

I just read this


> Also 3rd kazekage being the strongest is true however Suna is the weakest village so i see no reason to believe he would be stronger than Raikage simply because he is the strongest of his village . Suna is the weakest village of the 5 .



I guess I got ninja'd.


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## Rocky (May 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No he's not Sandaime-Raikage is unquestionably stronger.



If that were the case then I couldn't argue it. 



> But ether way I doubt the 2nd-Strongest Raikage is much stronger [if even as strong] than the Kazekage that towers above the others in strength.



Just because, right.



> It's not a matter of just extra fire-power. Sandaime is more durable, has more stamina, has hax amber sealing jar, and is more versatile with Kurokaminari.



Durability difference is likely negligible for the purpose of tiering the characters (there's no direct comparison except for Mabui's technique, which would only support a Pro-4th stance). Same for stamina, as Sandaime's best feat is tying with the Hachibi. All we know about A's stamina is that it's Biju-level; he's never run out of steam on panel. 

If he has the jar I'd agree he is stronger though (forgot about it), but the versatility thing is an iffy point for me. Sandaime's Black Lighting is just as featless as the random Doton or Suiton jutsu that A should be capable of performing. I don't know how much the extra "versatility" elevates Sandaime.



> Speed is overrated in the NDB, which is the reason why Ei is overrated, despite really having no where near Sasori's accomplishments or plethora of powerful techniques.



A massacres Sasori with nothing short of medium difficulty. 

Speed isn't overrated either. Maybe in your opinion, but not in the manga. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been such a big deal when Naruto joined Minato _as the only people to ever evade A's speed._

Unavoidable speed + limb-breaking, hole-punching strength deals with most defenses. 



> Satetsu blocks all of Ei's attacks as he lacks the raw-power to get through it and Sasori can also use it to fly and distance himself from Ei who lacks any ranged game whatsoever. Even if Ei manages to smash Sasori with an attack before this happens, Sasori would just reform and could even potentially turn this into a chance to ambush Ei.



I almost feel that you completely forgot that the Kazekage Puppet itself could be smashed. 

A lacking the power to get through Satetsu is unsubstantiated because it hasn't blocked anything on the level of his Raiton Chops, which seem to be his most powerful offense. I'll assume it could though, just 'cause.

A then ups his game to v2 in order to generate enough speed to fucking crush the puppet before it can mount a defense. Hell, it's possible A resorts to v2 as soon as he sees Sasori pull a _Kazekage_ puppet out.


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## FlamingRain (May 1, 2015)

Sasori's one of those characters that's a lot more threatening in the manga than he's likely to be perceived as in the battledome (at least from what I've seen) because Kishimoto hadn't dedicated as much time to developing the presence of his opponents as he had to the people the other Akatsuki members faced.

When Akatsuki was first introduced with the pair of Itachi and Kisame, they treated the village's Jōnin like playthings and Kisame figured that Itachi could have gone toe-to-toe with one of the legendary ninja equal to another said to be powerful enough to take out a village on his own. Remember what was happening around the time of the Sasori fight _specifically_: Deidara had just walked into Sunagakure and knocked out the Kazekage all by himself when he hadn't even brought that much clay with him, while the two Konoha teams had considerable difficulty just dealing with weakened copies of Itachi and Kisame.

A lot of the audience probably wasn't ready for a little girl and an old woman to force one of the big scary Akatsuki members to pull out his best Jutsus (they probably felt about like Sasori did in canon, wondering how in the mess you could explain that). It was just too different from the expectation. Of course, it was _supposed to be_ an impressive feat on their part, but it was very easy for that to end up feeling like more of an "anti-feat" of sorts on Sasori's part, because all we knew about Chiyo beforehand was that she got embarrassed by the Slug Princess and her son killed by the White Fang?.and Sakura is Sakura even if it was made apparent that she'd improved over the timeskip.


Looking past his particular opponents and at his actual skills, though...

The puppeteer slings _Satetsu_ around with such force that its impacts create craters several times the size of those caused by _Susano'o_. Each of its launches is especially quick, and the ability to sift it though multiple forms at will whilst tearing up the battlefield makes it all the more unpredictable and difficult to flawlessly evade. It's a terrifying enough offense even prior to accounting for the poison he's laced it with, as it should be considering that it's the most feared weapon of Sunagakure even without it.

His _defense_ with Satetsu is also great. The magnetism securing the metallic grains is so strong that breaking the walls they form would be a dream for the majority of even Kage-level fighters- even getting slammed with Sakura's Ōkashō didn't break apart the larger Satetsu Kesshū formations- and in addition to that, because the shapes he forms are composed of a plurality of tiny grains being held together they can simply be reformed even in the event that they were broken, meaning dispersing them permanently is an even taller task. Weapons of iron and steel are also rendered unusable so there's that factor, too.

And yet, the aforementioned powers are ones that Sasori himself overcame without them being a part of his own repertoire when he killed the Third Kazekage and walked off with his body to be made into another puppet in his collection of almost three hundred that can be used in such great numbers (with Aka Higi: Hyakki no Sōen) that they effectively become their own support system thanks to the fact that so much as a scratch proving fatal whilst every puppet's weapons have been coated in the poison responsible means that an enemy can't expect to get away with simply focusing on a certain puppet or set of puppets to avoid over the others, and  because there are so many they can provide their own distractions, exploit the resulting openings themselves, etc.

So imagine having to face a Kazekage's power, and then having to also face the abilities which overcame that power, because _that_ is fighting Sasori. You may as well be running a mini Kage gauntlet and trying to do it without receiving a scratch.

I doubt Deidara was lying when he admitted that Sasori was stronger than himself. He said it with the intent to steer Kakashi away from Naruto so that only the Jinchūriki was coming after him, true, but that doesn't necessarily mean his claim was false. If he was actually telling an outright lie you'd think that he would have left out the word "probably".

I think he's one of the more formidable members of Akatsuki.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Let's not turn this into an A vs sasori match 
A blitzes and destroys the kazekage puppet 
Then proceeds to break sasori

Ambush is sasori only hope 

Even poison gas won't work. The AoE is too small . Part 1 kabuto who is a super fodder to Ei could avoid such . Ei uses shunshin and gets behind sasori 

Then again Ei is well suited to troll sasori 

I just don't get how on panel Minato can say there are a 1000 Rock ninja . He gets there and kills them all witjout them knowing what he looks like . Actually that's his best feat 

He fought WARS!!! And people didn't know what he looked like . Kumo and Rock village had no idea what he actually looked like . Despite him actively fighting them . Yh it's hilarious that someone Ei calls an unbeatable shinobi would be anytbinf short of high Kage 

Do note very few ninja have been called legendary 

Hashirama , Minato and hiruzen. That's it . Even someone tying with a bijuu and taking 3 days to fight 10000 ninja isn't considered legendary


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## Trojan (May 1, 2015)

> Do note very few ninja have been called legendary
> 
> Hashirama , Minato and hiruzen. That's it .



Not really. The Sannin, and Kin/Gin were also called like this...etc


As for Sasori his portrayed in the manga is obvious. He was dragged down to be speed-blitzed by Sai. 
Thinking he stands even a slight chance against A & Minato's speed is just.....


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## Turrin (May 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If that were the case then I couldn't argue it.


I can argue Tenten > Kaguya, it doesn't make it understandable or correct.



> Just because, right.


Because that is huge hype. Do you really think Ei is much stronger than someone who towers above 3 other Kages in strength?



> If he has the jar I'd agree he is stronger though (forgot about it),but the versatility thing is an iffy point for me. Sandaime's Black Lighting is just as featless as the random Doton or Suiton jutsu that A should be capable of performing. I don't know how much the extra "versatility" elevates Sandaime.


I don't see any reason to get into a discussion of the other points, if you admit he's stronger. But I do have to ask, do you really feel validated comparing Kurokaminari Sandaime's famous for to a completely unknown skill in Doton and Suiton?



> Speed isn't overrated either. Maybe in your opinion, but not in the manga. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been such a big deal when Naruto joined Minato as the only people to ever evade A's speed.


And that helped KCM-Naruto soooooooooooooooo much, right 



> Unavoidable speed + limb-breaking, hole-punching strength deals with most defenses.


Not Satetsu and most of Ei's attacks get no-diff tanked by Sasori's puppet body, as he usually aims for the head, neck, face...not the heart.



> I almost feel that you completely forgot that the Kazekage Puppet itself could be smashed.


I didn't forget anything, the problem is Ei is not getting past a Satetsu Sphere [or whatever shape] defense to do that or alternatively has no range game whatsoever if Sasori flies on Iron Sand.



> A lacking the power to get through Satetsu is unsubstantiated because it hasn't blocked anything on the level of his Raiton Chops, which seem to be his most powerful offense. I'll assume it could though, just 'cause.


The better question is when did Ei ever show feats that suggest he can punch straight through a chakra reinforced extraordinarily dense block of Iron. But I sure do remember a minuscule portion Gaara's less dense regular sand block Ei's Leg-Drop, which is specifically stated to use weight and gravity to further increase his striking force and Enton Kagatsuchi at the same time.

Not to mention Iron Sand tanked a direct Okasho attack sending it flying into a solid rock wall w/o so much as even scratch or minor dent.



> A then ups his game to v2 in order to generate enough speed to fucking crush the puppet before it can mount a defense.


So Ei magically has knowledge that Sasori can create a Satetsu defense and just so happens to be in short-range. That seems real fair rocky.



> Hell, it's possible A resorts to v2 as soon as he sees Sasori pull a Kazekage puppet out.


Because he sure did resort to V2 off the bat when up against someone he thought beat Killer-B or even KCM-Naruto, who he knew a weaker Naruto beat Pain. 

And he sure does magically have knowledge that the Puppet is a Kazekage and that said puppet can use the Kazekage's jutsu, because yah know Human-Puppets and their mechanics sure are common, with only Sasori being the only one in the history of yah know ever, capable of making them.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Fair enough hussain . I forgot those guys thanks 

turrin wasn't dirsctly matching them up . Though he did say Ei is well suited to beat sasori 

I just don't see how something Sakura and chiyo avoided could hit the fastest man with much much mjch better reactions than Sakura on the strongest steroids 

I shall match sasori up against several different opponents . I want to see how he does . Since this isn't a direct match up thread


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## Rocky (May 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I can argue Tenten > Kaguya, it doesn't make it understandable or correct.



The definition of argue is to "give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view."

You cannot really do that for 1010 if her opponent is jesus, but I can and have given reasons as to why the strongest Raikage is debatable. 



> Do you really think Ei is much stronger than someone who towers above 3 other Kages in strength?



Much? No.

Do I think it's possible he's _slightly_ stronger than the strongest Kazekage? Yes of course. When that statement was made, Gaara was just getting started as Kage, Rasa was unimpressive, and the other two Kage are featless. 

If you want to operate by tiers, then Gaara, Rasa & the featless ones border between Low & Mid-Kage, while the 3rd Kazekage is a solid Mid-Kage. Sasori and A towards the top of Mid Kage.



> But I do have to ask, do you really feel validated comparing Kurokaminari Sandaime's famous for to a completely unknown skill in Doton and Suiton?



Was he _famous_ for it? I don't really remember. I was just scaling off of Darui, who, to be quite frank, didn't impress me with it. It was a nice crowd control fodder-killer, but how much does it help against other Kage levels?



> And that helped KCM-Naruto soooooooooooooooo much, right



Lol that was bad writing, because Naruto's speed definitely helped him when it was used. We've seen speed help Minato & A though.



> Not Satetsu and most of Ei's attacks get no-diff tanked by Sasori's puppet body, as he usually aims for the head, neck, face...not the heart.



I agree, but A'll figure it out and hit the heart canister eventually. 



> I didn't forget anything, the problem is Ei is not getting past a Satetsu Sphere [or whatever shape] defense to do that or alternatively has no range game whatsoever if Sasori flies on Iron Sand.



This isn't you with Sasori's abilities going in with full knowledge, my friend. He isn't going to preemptively put up a sphere defense or fly away. 

A smashes the puppet with Shunshin after either evading an Iron Sand attack, or _before_ Sasori's formed it into anything. Sasori isn't using a puppet to shape Iron Sand into a sphere before A (v1 or v2) completes a Shunshin blitz on the puppet, imo. 

Hey, maybe Sasori sends the puppet into close quarters with A (lol) _before Iron Sand even comes out._ Sounds asinine, but he did it against Sakura _who has just demonstrated the physical might to shatter his reinforced Hiruko_.  



> The better question is when did Ei ever show feats that suggest he can punch straight through a chakra reinforced extraordinarily dense block of Iron.



Breaking Susano'o and part of the Hachibi's head are his best striking feats. 



> So Ei magically has knowledge that Sasori can create a Satetsu defense and just so happens to be in short-range. That seems real fair rocky.



"Just so happens?"

There's none of that. A is close to Sasori because in order for that Kazekage puppet to even have made an appearance, it's assumed that A had just crushed Hiruko. 

With Taijutsu. 

Which is applied at_ melee range._



> Because he sure did resort to V2 off the bat when up against someone he thought beat Killer-B or even KCM-Naruto, who he knew a weaker Naruto beat Pain.



Why don't you listen to my arguments before replying. 

Nobody said "off the bat." A is going to fight Hiruko first, and I _did_ agree that he'd likely begin in v1. I'm assuming that Sasori survives and _steps his game up_ by bringing out the Kazekage puppet (much like Sasuke did with the Mangekyou), and _that_ is what prompts A to do the same and use v2.



> And he sure does magically have knowledge that the Puppet is a Kazekage and that said puppet can use the Kazekage's jutsu, because yah know Human-Puppets and their mechanics sure are common, with only Sasori being the only one in the history of yah know ever, capable of making them.



I assumed A would, ya know, recognize the him by appearance..like Chiyo. I mean, was the dude's appearance like a secret? He's famous right? Surely this guy was alive when A was (timeline is a fuck, so I'm not certain).


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## Turrin (May 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You cannot really do that for 1010 if her opponent is jesus, but I can and have given reasons as to why the strongest Raikage is debatable.


I don't think you can do that in this situation ether, in-fact you already admitted that you can't, since you agreed Sandaime is stronger.



> Do I think it's possible he's slightly stronger than the strongest Kazekage?


Okay, but If Ei is only slightly stronger than Sandaime, that still places Sasori above Ei, because a much weaker Sasori beat Sandaime, with Sandaime being a poor match up for Sasori.



> If you want to operate by tiers, then Gaara, Rasa & the featless ones border between Low & Mid-Kage, while the 3rd Kazekage is a solid Mid-Kage. Sasori and A towards the top of Mid Kage.


I think you and I place Sandaime at the same point, though maybe I account for the possibility of him being a bit stronger due to the unknown quantity of Shodai and Nindaime Kazekage, but I think were we differ, is I do not place Ei towards the top of Mid-Kage, as I just don't think Ei's accomplishments and fairly one dimensional fighting style warrant that placement. 

I mean honestly Rocky, what as Ei been shown to do, that merits that placements. He fought S1 Susano'o-Sasuke to a "draw", who at best I'd place around average to slightly bellow average Mid-Kage. He than was used as hype tool for Base-B, Minato, and Naruto. Than it's debatable who contributed more between him Mei and Gaara, but he was certainly eclipsed by the actual upper-mid-kages, Tsunade, at least in a support role, and Onoki



> Was he famous for it? I don't really remember. I was just scaling off of Darui, who, to be quite frank, didn't impress me with it. It was a nice crowd control fodder-killer, but how much does it help against other Kage levels?


He was famous enough that random fodder knew he used it and hyped Darui as being the only one to inherit it. And even scaling off Darui, I don't see how you think completely unknown suiton/doton skill is comparable to Kuro-Panther. As far as it's usefulness against other Kages, it's useful in the sense that it adds versatility, like I said. Though it might be more useful depending on how powerful it is. I mean Sasuke only showed Kurokaminari when being empowered by Senjutsu, so that should say something about it's power.



> Lol that was bad writing, because Naruto's speed definitely helped him when it was used. We've seen speed help Minato & A though.


I can agree that it's bad writing, however you brought forward the example of Naruto. Anyway, I never said speed wasn't helpful, I think it's overrated because when a speedster fights another character, people tend to default the match to short, with full knowledge, and the speedster going max-speed from the start, which is very-rarely the case in the actual manga.



> I agree, but A'll figure it out and hit the heart canister eventually.


And by eventually, Satetsu will be out to be used defensively or to fly out of Ei's range. And of course this is assuming Ei isn't poisoned by an ambush when he believes Sasori is dead.



> This isn't you with Sasori's abilities going in with full knowledge, my friend. He isn't going to preemptively put up a sphere defense or fly away.


Rocky do you really think it's fair, to assume Sasori who witnessed multiple Kazekages fight throughout his life time, is extremely intelligent and experienced, would not potentially use strategies that are fully within his capabilities and that Chunin-Exams Gaara was aware of?



> A smashes the puppet with Shunshin after either evading an Iron Sand attack, or before Sasori's formed it into anything. Sasori isn't using a puppet to shape Iron Sand into a sphere before A (v1 or v2) completes a Shunshin blitz on the puppet, imo.


Ei could only do this with his max-speed and only at short. Otherwise Sasori will have more than enough time to pull out the incredible fast Iron-Sand, considering Juugo and Suigetsu reacted to R1-Ei's attacks.



> Hey, maybe Sasori sends the puppet into close quarters with A (lol) before Iron Sand even comes out. Sounds asinine, but he did it against Sakura who has just demonstrated the physical might to shatter his reinforced Hiruko.


Yeah and Ei is defeated at that point, because Sasori only did that when Sakura was already poisoned.



> Breaking Susano'o and part of the Hachibi's head are his best striking feats.


Sasuke S1 Susano'o has hardly been SUPER impressive durability wise and Hachibi's Horn is of unknown durability.

And I do have a hard time imagining Ei's striking force to be Eons above Okasho, which it would have to be, considering Okasho didn't do anything and I mean anything to Satetsu. And the feat of Gaara's small portion of sand block leg-drop and Enton-Kagtsuchi at the same time also doesn't bode well.



> There's none of that. A is close to Sasori because in order for that Kazekage puppet to even have made an appearance, it's assumed that A had just crushed Hiruko.


Not really. Sasori could easily see Ei's speed and RNY's defense against his weapons before than, if things start at Mid to Long, and pulled out Kazekage. 

If the match starts at short, than yes Sasori will still be in short[ish] [he created a fair amount of distance between himself and Chiyo/Sakura when Sakura smashed Hiroku] when he pulls out the Kazekage-Puppet. But than he still does not know the threat of Satetsu and has no reason to go Max-Speed to preempt it. 

So yes the match would need to start at Short and Ei would need knowledge of Satetsu.



> Nobody said "off the bat." A is going to fight Hiruko first, and I did agree that he'd likely begin in v1. I'm assuming that Sasori survives and steps his game up by bringing out the Kazekage puppet (much like Sasuke did with the Mangekyou), and that is what prompts A to do the same and use v2.


I don't see why bringing out another puppet would make Ei step up to Max-Speed. Sasuke brought out Susano'o and Chidori and he didn't step up to Max-Speed, until Sasuke was going to use yet another MS-Tech.



> I assumed A would, ya know, recognize the him by appearance..like Chiyo. I mean, was the dude's appearance like a secret? He's famous right? Surely this guy was alive when A was (timeline is a fuck, so I'm not certain)


He doesn't really look like his old self now does he, and who knows at what time Sandaime-Kazekage was active.

Beyond that it doesn't even matter if he recognizes him, because to Ei it will just be a puppet modeled after the Kazekage, he will have no way of knowing that it's a puppet actually made from the Kazekage and capable of the Kazekage's Jutsu, until Sasori actually pulls out a Satetsu Technique, and even than he won't know if Sasori can use Satetsu to the same degree as Sandaime.

Ei needs full knowledge to act the way yourr demanding of him.


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## DavyChan (May 1, 2015)

He is. I'm glad someo9ne made this thread. for real.

Sasori is very close to Hidan/Kakazu level bad. He is not mid akatsuki level at all..

Obito

--gap--

Nagato/Itachi

--gap--

Konan/Kisame
Deidara

--gap--

Sasori
Kakakzu
Hidan


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

You see turrin you keep mentioning sasori achievements as well. which is why i said you got some global perspective. Because clearly sasori defeating a kage an adding said kage to his arsenal moves sasori up the ranks. This assumes 2 things however

1)That the sandaime use his iron sand the way sasori did 
2) that it was a fair fight. Because lets not forget orochimaru defeated rasa who used to stop a bijuu off panel. Yet the same orochimaru lost to 13 year old itachi, so bad that orochimaru thought even if him and sasuke went at it together their chances only increase by 1%

so hype of beating a kage isnt really that much even if said kage was the strongest. 

One way to look at sasori level which i think you would like is in the way. *KISHI* the author ranks his techniques. 

if i recall the ranking system 

S - Secret - Highest Rank
A - Forbidden jutsu and beyond hard ninjutsu
B - Jōnin Rank
C - Chūnin Rank
D - Genin Rank
E - Academy Rank

Now lets look at sasori jutsu 

Puppet Performance: Skilful Achievement with a Human Body- is A rank 
creating a human puppet though not named is - S rank 
puppet jutsu- C rank 
1000 hands manipulation- C rank 
memory concealing- A rank 
performance of  100 puppets- S rank
Puppet Technique: Prosthetic Arm Needles- not ranked (cant be above C rank)
All satetsu related techniques- unranked though all KKG should be between B-A rank. 

2 S, 2 A, 2 C to me is clearly more in the upper echelon of mid tier kage. if we go based on his jutsu. or rather how kishi wants us to get them. 

*Do note the ranking system. B rank is a jonin level jutsu- take note kishi unlike us. considers jonin to be top level. beyond that you got ninja whose levels make history. *

now if we compare sasori skill set to EI 

who has 1 A rank, 2 B rank and 3 C rank 

this to me looks like he is a tier below sasori in terms of jutsu. As far as ranking is concerned. however there is more to ninja than just jutsu. Ei stamina and chakra for example allows him to use mere jonin level jutsu to straight up bully sasori despite sasori more hax and complex jutsu

when we consider that obito 1 trick pony jutsu puts him at high kage tier. so while sasori based on his jutsu is very high up there sadly how he uses them or rather the limits with them allow even less verstaile ninja to bully him 

cuz as u can imagine his 100 puppets are entirely useless against Ei simple B rank jutsu boosting his D rank shunshin.

All in all sasori is mid kage level in league with people like Ei, Ei dad, gaara. I think the strongest mid kage level would be Ei dad 

While the strongest high kage level would be obito. (BM naruto and EMS sasuke would be pre god tier)

I would also consider the likes of orochimaru, and jiriaya to be high kage tier, as well as onoki. 

Minato will also be in the top 3 of high kage tier. Even if we look at his jutsu, portrayal, how he uses his jutsu as well as him being a clean tier above Ei 

Considering Ei began to think of minato a guy from another village as the saviour of ninja and a man who could never be beat


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## Turrin (May 1, 2015)

@Icegaze

Your arguing largely against a point I never made. I was never saying Sasori was better due to the rank of his jutsu

As far as the Kage hype goes, your going out of your way to ignore cannon. Kishi puts Sasori beating Sandaime-Kazekage in the context of hyping Sasori and gives no excuses for Sandaime's defeat. There is no reason to assume that Sasori beating Sandaime is anything other than what it is at face value, hype that Sasori was superior to him and than got even stronger.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> Your arguing largely against a point I never made. I was never saying Sasori was better due to the rank of his jutsu
> 
> As far as the Kage hype goes, your going out of your way to ignore cannon. Kishi puts Sasori beating Sandaime-Kazekage in the context of hyping Sasori and gives no excuses for Sandaime's defeat. There is no reason to assume that Sasori beating Sandaime is anything other than what it is at face value, hype that Sasori was superior to him and than got even stronger.



ok 
he beat sandaime fair and square 

i brought up rank of jutsu cuz i thought it might interrest you. wasnt saying you brought it up 

also note sandaime would be stronger than a puppet version of himself 

puppets dont move all that quick because sasori must react then physically move them. a disadvantage he gets rid off when he uses 100 puppet jutsu 

adding sandaime to his arsenal made him stronger. however you are under the belief that the sandaime puppet actually equals to the real person. when this might not be true.

eg: Ei puppet will have slower reactions than actual Ei. Since those reactions will be based on sasori's and not Ei's


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## Rocky (May 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't think you can do that in this situation ether, in-fact you already admitted that you can't, since you agreed Sandaime is stronger.



No, I never admitted that it wasn't debatable. I just changed my opinion on who I was leaning towards after remembering the pot. 



> Okay, but If Ei is only slightly stronger than Sandaime, that still places Sasori above Ei, because a much weaker Sasori beat Sandaime, with Sandaime being a poor match up for Sasori.



My Mid Kage tier list is pretty big though. By slightly stronger I meant on the same tier.

-High Kages-
--
A
Sasori
Younger Sasori
Sandaime
--
-Low Kages-



> I mean honestly Rocky, what as Ei been shown to do, that merits that placements.



_Legendary_ speed hype plus the strength & stamina feats are enough for me. There just aren't many guys that can deal with that.




> Though it might be more useful depending on how powerful it is.



Okay.



> I think it's overrated because when a speedster fights another character, people tend to default the match to short, with full knowledge, and the speedster going max-speed from the start, which is very-rarely the case in the actual manga.



Yet I'm not doing that here, or acting like those are the conditions. 



> And by eventually, Satetsu



I stopped.

I've already told you, the Kazekage puppet will be gone. 



> Rocky do you really think it's fair, to assume Sasori who witnessed multiple Kazekages fight throughout his life time, is extremely intelligent and experienced, would not potentially use strategies that are fully within his capabilities and that Chunin-Exams Gaara was aware of?



Gaara only shielded himself like that because Sasuke had just been tearing him apart with speed and taijutsu.  



> Ei could only do this with his max-speed and only at short. Otherwise Sasori will have more than enough time to pull out the incredible fast Iron-Sand, considering Juugo and Suigetsu reacted to R1-Ei's attacks.



Here's where you just fail to understand what the 4th Raikage is capable of. 

Suigetsu reacted to a combination attack with Darui, where A slowed himself down so they could strike at the same time. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense for the author to have C hype A to the point where Sasuke & co. would have difficulty keeping up once RCM was activated, yet intend him to be no faster than Darui.

CS2 Jugo only managed to raise his arms to his face to block A's fist moments before it connected. Iron Sand is shaped into a spear or bullets, then I don't see the Sasori managing to get his puppet to shape the Iron Sand back into a defensive formation before A's evaded its attack and shunshin-smashed it to bits. 

The distance will probably be around what it was when Sasori was attacking Chiyo & Sakura with Drizzle, which is not to great for A to blitz with the body flicker. Especially when the distance traveled with shunshin depends on one's chakra capacity, and A has Biju amounts. 



> Yeah and Ei is defeated at that point, because Sasori only did that when Sakura was already poisoned.



It's been a while, so I do suggest scrolling through the fight to refresh yourself on Sasori's tendencies. 

The _very fist thing he did_ with the damn puppet is _attack_ Sakura & Chyio with a freaking arm blade.

Then, a chapter went past, and finally, he used the Iron Sand. 



> Not really. Sasori could easily see Ei's speed and RNY's defense against his weapons before than, if things start at Mid to Long, and pulled out Kazekage.



I'm assuming that A casually avoids Hiruko's traps like Chiyo did (while controlling Sakura) and smashes the puppet like Saukra did. 

Satetsu isn't even a guarantee to come out then. Even if A shows his speed & strength by evading Hiruko's attacks breaking it, Sasori may still try to attack him in close quarters with Sandaime Kazekage like he did Chiyo-controlled Sakura, who _also_ made a fool of Hiruko up close. 



> I don't see why bringing out another puppet would make Ei step up to Max-Speed. Sasuke brought out Susano'o and Chidori and he didn't step up to Max-Speed, until Sasuke was going to use yet another MS-Tech.



A powered up as soon as he saw Sasuke _up his own game_ and activate Mangekyou Sharingan. A used v2 _right away_ against Minato and Madara.

I'm sorry, but unless you give me the reason why A wouldn't want to use v2 against Sasori – who has pretty decent hype himself – midway through the fight when he sees a puppet that looks like a Kage come out, then we're done with this point. 



> Beyond that it doesn't even matter if he recognizes him, because to Ei it will just be a puppet modeled after the Kazekage, he will have no way of knowing that it's a puppet actually made from the Kazekage and capable of the Kazekage's Jutsu, until Sasori actually pulls out a Satetsu Technique, and even than he won't know if Sasori can use Satetsu to the same degree as Sandaime.



He doesn't need to know any of that. My only point is that he recognizes that this puppet is supposed to be a threat greater than the last one, and that prompts max power.

It isn't like there's some detriment to v2. You sit here and act like it's Gai's seventh gate, which rips apart his body.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

@Rocky and turrin  why would Ei avoid hiruko attacks?
Ei straight up runs into it and crushes it no effort there. thats nasty neg diff

Sasori jumps out. Ei might be patient and wait for him. no need to rush in 

Sasori uses satetsu to attack. Ei shunshin and crushes the puppet. Now i want to understand how right after Ei has lol avoided satetsu does sasori form a protective defense in time to block Ei punch?

sasori doesnt have such speeds. Ei even in V1 was able to shunshin soo far karin a sensor couldnt sense him anymore

despite her being able to sense bee a mountain top away. 

Speed and strength are overhyped sure but considering KISHI!!! the author has already said close range users are very effective agaisnt puppet users. I dont see how the second best close range ninja wont be crushign sasori casually

note: like rocky said nothing at all stops Ei from goign V2. he doesnt start with it true. cuz more often than not V1 is way more than enough to close in and kill his enemy. However i dont see why he would see a puppet version of a reputable kage used by the akatsuki and not go V2. 
not that he needs 2

in V1 he is fast enough to escape point blank chakra canons and fast enoguh to prevent sasuke from genjutsu' him
he is also durable enough to straight up block satetsu coming his way. 

Ei cant loose to sasori ever.


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## Turrin (May 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> _Legendary_ speed hype plus the strength & stamina feats are enough for me. There just aren't many guys that can deal with that.


Ei's speed is hyped, I agree. However, Satetsu was hyped to be faster than the speed of sound [and shown to create sonic booms in the manga], Satetsu was hyped as the most fearsome jutsu in Sunagaruku history, and Sandaime himself was hyped to tower above 4 other Kazekage in strength. There is no defensible way to argue that Sandaime's hype is not at least equivalent to Ei's, if not better.

As far as feats go, you must realize the comparison is inherently unfair, considering Sandaime-Kazekage never fought in the manga cannon, and even when his puppet was utilize by Sasori, Sasori was just fucking around w/ Chiyo and Sakura, considering when he pulls out Kaihou, he's like I guess I'll use a bit of my chakra this time lolz.



> Yet I'm not doing that here, or acting like those are the conditions.


You kind of are, just instead of Ei immediately going Max-Speed, he goes Max-Speed like 2 moves in.



> Gaara only shielded himself like that because Sasuke had just been tearing him apart with speed and taijutsu.


Which is what you said Ei will do to Hiroku. 



> Suigetsu reacted to a combination attack with Darui, where A slowed himself down so they could strike at the same time. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense for the author to have C hype A to the point where Sasuke & co. would have difficulty keeping up once RCM was activated, yet intend him to be no faster than Darui.


Hypes he reflexes, not movement speed. And what combination attack, they attacked totally separate enemies with attacks that had nothing to do with each other.



> CS2 Jugo only managed to raise his arms to his face to block A's fist moments before it connected. Iron Sand is shaped into a spear or bullets, then I don't see the Sasori managing to get his puppet to shape the Iron Sand back into a defensive formation before A's evaded its attack and shunshin-smashed it to bits.


Sasori can shape more than one thing with his Satetsu at a time. So he can attack with bullets, while at the same time having a shield up.



> The distance will probably be around what it was when Sasori was attacking Chiyo & Sakura with Drizzle, which is not to great for A to blitz with the body flicker. Especially when the distance traveled with shunshin depends on one's chakra capacity, and A has Biju amounts.


Being logically capable of doing something and actually doing it are two very different things. Ei did not use Shunshin against Taka until ether Amaterasu or Juugo's Lazer [if you think he used Shunshin there] pushed him to do so. Otherwise he charged with physical speed.

So once again I question why Ei would immediately perceive Sasori's puppet as such a threat to use a high end Shunshin to immediately clear the distance and blitz it before Satetsu can come out. Fuck even if Ei did see the threat, I'd think Ei'd go for Sasori first if he attempted a blitz, because it makes sense to take out the puppeteer, rather than the puppet, if one has the chance to blitz.



> The very fist thing he did with the damn puppet is attack Sakura & Chyio with a freaking arm blade.


He attacked them because he thought the attack would be successful due to superior speed and puppeteering skill than Chiyo. When he found out it would not work he changed tactics and went for Satetsu. Unless he's equating Ei's speed and defenses to Chiyo's, he's going to know he needs Satetsu against Ei.



> I'm assuming that A casually avoids Hiruko's traps like Chiyo did (while controlling Sakura) and smashes the puppet like Saukra did.


Honestly' He'd probably just run through them like he just took Sasuke's Ksunagi strike, but it doesn't matter as Sasori would see his speed and know he needs to up his game to Satetsu to defend against him. 



> Satetsu isn't even a guarantee to come out then. Even if A shows his speed & strength by evading Hiruko's attacks breaking it, Sasori may still try to attack him in close quarters with Sandaime Kazekage like he did Chiyo-controlled Sakura, who also made a fool of Hiruko up close.


So your equating Ei's speed to Chiyo's? This seems fair to you?



> A powered up as soon as he saw Sasuke up his own game and activate Mangekyou Sharingan. A used v2 right away against Minato and Madara.


So your equating, Minato FTG, Mangekyo-Sharingan, and Madara to Random Puppet. This seems fair to you?



> I'm sorry, but unless you give me the reason why A wouldn't want to use v2 against Sasori – who has pretty decent hype himself – midway through the fight when he sees a puppet that looks like a Kage come out, then we're done with this point.


Mid-Way though the fight, so apparently Ei will struggle for half the fight against Hiroku?

No i'm sorry until you give me a reason why Ei would immediately go V2, upon seeing a Puppet, that he has no way of knowing has the abilities of the Kazekage, you need to drop this point, as it's completely unfair.



> He doesn't need to know any of that. My only point is that he recognizes that this puppet is supposed to be a threat greater than the last one, and that prompts max power.


Of course the next Puppet is going to be more of a threat, but we already established Hiroku was zero threat to him. So another puppet of potentially slightly more threat, is suddenly going immediately make him up his game to R2. Come on rocky, that's ridiculously un-fair. 

He did not up his game to R2, when Juugo transformed into a more threatening CS form. He did not up his game to R2 when Sasuke used a more threatening Jutsu, Chidori. And so on. The only times he's used R2 was when his enemies threat required him to do; MS, FTG, Madara, and KCM-Naruto + B + Tsunade.



> It isn't like there's some detriment to v2. You sit here and act like it's Gai's seventh gate, which rips apart his body.


There's no deteriment to Sasori immediately pulling out Sandaime-Kazekage ether, Naruto characters just don't act the way your demanding off them. They don't pull their higher end stuff till much later in the match or when they absolutely need to.

We agree Hiroku is ether going to be destroyed fast or Sasori will realize quickly he needs more than Hiroku. So it's still going to be very early on that Sandaime-Kazekage comes out. Too early for it to be likely that Ei will use R2, and he won't need R2 until Satetsu is already out on the field and pressuring him.

Though I do think the draw-back of R2 is it expands a huge amount of chakra. As according to Karin he was pumping Bijuu amounts into the shroud when he did so. So I don't expect he can use R2 for some huge duration of time and we've certainly never seen him do so.

Edit: I mean I don't see how Ei is not God-Tier, if we treat him the way your treating him. I.E. he goes R2 at any minor provocation and can use the chakra amounts R2 requires for excessively long periods of time. Ei sees a Sannin, fuck their Sannin, R2 blitz GG. See's a Kage, fuck their a Kage R2 Blitz GG. See's Itachi, fuck he's an Uchiha, R2 Blitz GG.  Only Minato, Obito, and maybe Tobirama could beat him outside of God Tiers. Yet this greatly contrasts how he actually performed in the manga, with him drawing with Start of Kage-Arc Sasuke, Base-B out performing him multiple times, and so on. And having no notable portrayal to put him that high up the scale. There is clearly a gulf between how you expect Ei to perform and how he actually does perform in the manga cannon.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2015)

Sasori's feats with Satetsu which were capable of moving at the speed of sound were not at all comparable to what Sasori is capable of as he admitted to holding back his chakra and had to slowly amp up the chakra used. You could argue that Sasori used his max chakra with his final Satetsu used against Sakura, but with a 5 in stamina, I highly doubt it and he could simply use more chakra to form more Iron Sand to make it even more deadly.

 Honestly though, it's arguable if V1 Ei can even hit Sasori with his Satetsu though it's also debatable if Sasori can even form his Iron Sand before V1 Ei reaches him. Sasori can at least perceive his movements considering even Suigetsu could and his reflexes pale in comparison to Base Sasuke's. 

 So, it's not really a blitz unless Ei uses V2 Shunshin, but considering it requires time to build up Bijuu Level Chakra, it would give Sasori an opportunity to use Iron Sand and even gain some distance against Ei. Of course, I'd be more inclined to say that V2 Ei would defeat Sasori considering V2 Ei's initial speed burst which Sasori isn't aware of would catch him off-guard and potentially leave him unable to react considering MS Obito with Precognition and a haxed ability with a superior activation time was nearly caught off-guard by Ei's speed and that's something considering Obito believed he could waltz right into the Summit and do whatever the hell he wanted.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

@NarutoX28 
time to build up V2 chakra?
is that your fan fic 

Ei was able to amp up in the time it took sasuke to use amaterasu. 

V1 Ei is lol dancing through satetsu considering his reactions and physical speed horrendously exceed sakura's multiplied by chiyo's


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @NarutoX28
> time to build up V2 chakra?
> is that your fan fic
> 
> ...



 Ei was building up his Max Shunshin before Sasuke even prepared to launch his Amaterasu. We even witness C commenting on it before Sasuke decided to use his Amaterasu.

 Except Chiyo's expertise is in puppetry and she had a huge advantage by having immense knowledge and experience dealing with Sasori's puppetry yet even combined with Sakura's evasive training, still failed to avoid it. We also have to consider that Sasori can use Iron Sand help him gain distance away from Ei who's a CQC fighter and that Sasori can use much more chakra to improve the efficiency of his Iron Sand.

 I don't understand how Sasori can't defend himself with a technique that easily moves at the speed of sound if not faster combined with the fact that one powerful hit is not destroying Sasori, especially when Ei lacks knowledge on Sasori's puppet body. This basically means Sasori can scratch Ei and still avoid any consequences even if he does get punched in by Ei considering he can just regenerate and reform his body almost instantaneously.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

> NarutoX28 said:
> 
> 
> > Ei was building up his Max Shunshin before Sasuke even prepared to launch his Amaterasu. We even witness C commenting on it before Sasuke decided to use his Amaterasu.
> ...


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## Rocky (May 1, 2015)

Turrin, this has essentially turned into another "when will Raikage try" debate, and I don't know if we'll ever agree on it. I'll say this though; A decided v2 was the way to go against Minato, the Mangekyou, and Madara because of their hype. _Their reputation._ He didn't have any specific knowledge on Minato or Madara that we know of, and what he knew about Sasuke's MS was likewise unknown.

How A acted against Minato is enough to make my point. You yourself hold Sasori's achomplishments as comparable to Minato's, so that alone should be enough support to suggest A will go hard _as soon as the match begins._ Yet, I'm supposed to believe that A will hold back just because he didn't find v2 necessary for Jugo and Base Sasuke? 

Also, the God tier v2 A rant was ridiculous. He may be too fast to dodge and too strong to block in most cases, but that's why he's high Mid Kage. Most High Kage Tiers have instant defenses that can guard against him though. Itachi has Susano'o, B has his own v2, S/T guys have S/T, Pain has Shinra Tensei, Kabuto has multiple regenerative techniques...you feel me? Top and God tiers have even better defense the the high tiers.

Personally, I don't see Sasori as a character than can keep a perfect, omnidirectional iron shield around himself and his puppet and still muster enough offense to track down somebody like the 4th Raikage. I'd say it's more realistic that Sasori'd use all of Satetsu to attack (like was saw in the manga), and lose his puppet on a counter attack because he wasn't expecting legendary flickers.

If you disagree, that's fine. I doubt I'll change my mind in this though.


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## Turrin (May 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How A acted against Minato is enough to make my point. You yourself hold Sasori's achomplishments as comparable to Minato's, so that alone should be enough support to suggest A will go hard _as soon as the match begins._ Yet, I'm supposed to believe that A will hold back just because he didn't find v2 necessary for Jugo and Base Sasuke?
> .


The problem is that Ei is not aware of what Sasori had accomplished. That's why I say in a full knowledge scenario you argument has more validity, but with manga or no knowledge, how does he know any of this? Like I said your assuming full knowledge for Ei



> Also, the God tier v2 A rant was ridiculous. He may be too fast to dodge and too strong to block in most cases, but that's why he's high Mid Kage. Most High Kage Tiers have instant defenses that can guard against him though. Itachi has Susano'o, B has his own v2, S/T guys have S/T, Pain has Shinra Tensei, Kabuto has multiple regenerative techniques...you feel me? Top and God tiers have even better defense the the high tiers.


Are you saying these characters can pull that defense before R2-Ei blitz's them?



> ersonally, I don't see Sasori as a character than can keep a perfect, omnidirectional iron shield around himself and his puppet and still muster enough offense to track down somebody like the 4th Raikage. I'd say it's more realistic that Sasori'd use all of Satetsu to attack (like was saw in the manga), and lose his puppet on a counter attack because he wasn't expecting legendary flickers.


You do realize that Sasori was capable of Satetsu Kaihou with only a bit of his chakra, which covered a very large area.


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## Rocky (May 1, 2015)

Cell phone, so

Quote 1.) I was operating under manga/reputation knowledge. Isn't Sasori another one that's famous? This is the dude that's killed the strongest Kazekage and took down some sort of country. I thought that that was something people just knew, like Kakashi's copy ninja thing.

Quote 2.) The difference between v1 and v2 for me is the ability for most opponents to physically guard. So unless the distance is super short, the listed characters should still be capable of using things like Susano'o or Kamui.

Quote 3.) Here's how I see it going up to the Kazekage's demise.

A evades and/or tanks anything Hiruko wants to do in v1, then smashes the puppet once close enough.

Sasori summons the Kazekage puppet. It either rushes A (and gets crushed) or spews Satetsu.

If the fact that Sasori's puppet resembles strongest Kazekage is not enough to prompt v2 on its own, I believe that the appearance of Sandaime's famed Jutsu would definitely suffice.

Sasori attacks A with Drizzle or the giant spear (probably Drizzle, his opening Satetsu move in canon) because he needs something quick to have a chance at hitting A.

A uses super lightning reflexes to dodge Drizzle with Shunshin, and counter kills the puppet with a chop to its neck (think Sasuke). 

I don't think that's unreasonable.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> EI powered up in 1 panel. the second he saw MS. thats hardly building up. he powered up in 1 panel
> same way he powered up in 1 panel against KCM naruto. thats hardly a time frame sasori attacks can take advantage of



 here

 here

 Karin: "Raikage's chakras are * still growing. *"

 Doesn't constitute as one second if we include everyone's reactions as well as Karin's statement indicating that it took more than 1 panel. 

 Sasuke also didn't use Amaterasu until Ei was all charged up as seen here: 
here

 So no, Ei's Max Shunshin is not built up as quickly as Sasuke can use Enton.




> true. i agree. however Ei reactions, durability and speed so horribly exceed sakura and chiyo's that even without knowledge Ei will avoid everything. Ei avoided jugo chakra canons point blank in V1 for god sake. its not like sasori attacks can hit him at a distance.



 Iron Sand's a Kage Level technique and one that receives legitimate hype due it's unpredictability.



> true sasori can use more chakra. however iron sand field to breach a chakra barrier. why on earth would it get through RCM ?



 here

 You mean this Satetsu which was formed into small spears with Sasori not even using all of the small amount of Iron Sand he used against Sakura and Chiyo earlier? That Iron Sand's velocity or acceleration clear was not as high, so that example is not comparable.

 Ei dodging Jugo's blast point-blank is an impressive speed feat, however, that is a predictable strike while Sasori's Satetsu is not. Even then, I never implied it would be an easy match up for Sasori.




> how is he scratching Ei!!!! oh my god!!!!
> 
> with what??? please tell me. outside iron sand which is debatable nothing sasori has can scratch Ei at all.



 Iron Sand is a magnetic force formed by Chakra that can move at extremely high velocities. V1 Ei's cloak was penetrated by Sasuke's Chidori and his strike speed clear isn't on par with the speed of Iron Sand or it's acceleration for that matter. Iron Sand can penetrate his RnY and poison him. Simple as that.

 I never once claimed any of Sasori's puppets can pierce through Ei's RnY with normal weaponry alone.



> kazekage puppet is the only threat to Ei. and even then these sound of speed attacks were anticiapated and evaded by sakura being helped by chiyo. Ei reactions and speed horribly outclass both of them on steroids



 Sakura didn't anticipate it at all, only Chiyo did and her reflexes are certainly very high. 

 That attack was also fired in a linear fashion and we do know that Sasori can utilize far more chakra to create a far more deadly attack and that's with Sasori stating that he's only using a little bit of extra chakra. With a 5 in stamina, a little bit of chakra isn't anything to worry about for Sasori.



> Ei can too easily close the distance. puppet jutsu isnt fast mind you



 Iron Sand is. 



> this is why sasori 100 puppet is special. read up on what kishi says about it. its quicker because sasori doesnt need to physically move his fingers to control the puppet into attacking
> 
> somethign he must do with all other puppets. this is specifically why sakura could avoid his attacks. because of the time lag. now Ei will use that to his advantage



 Actually, his 100 puppet technique is special  considering the sheer number of puppets dictates a puppet master's strength which no one has even displayed besides Sasori as well as the fact that it can easily overwhelm multiple Kage Level Ninja.

 I never outright stated that Sasori would ever use his puppets in CQC making your last remark useless.

 If I wanted to, I could just as easily state that Sasori can use his 100 puppet ninjutsu in conjunction with Iron Sand to overwhelm V1 Ei.



> sasori must react
> pull his strings
> then the puppet attacks.



 Except Sasori doesn't need to and he certainly can perform multiple surprise attacks since he can't be defeated with just nintaijutsu if he has no knowledge of Sasori's heart.



> a guy in V1 and with 1 arm stopping KCm and bee from passing isnt going to be getting hit by sasori



 Sasori is stationary, KCM Naruto and Bee were not. That alone hampers their ability to react.



> satetsu on panel was never hyped for its speed. mind you. Db saying its fast is somethign no doubt. however not when you are talking about the fastest man alive.
> and the fact that sasori jutsu will always have a time lag.



 I stated it was fast, but I also admitted that it's hype is mostly attributed to it's unpredictability which can easily overwhelm multiple ninja.



> Read this : *who evaded a KCM chakra arm assisted FRS*



 Honestly, that just convinced me that Sasori can use Iron Sand without even having to move his hands making Iron Sand even more efficient.

 But I'm not sure why you posted the link in the first place.


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## Rocky (May 1, 2015)

Also Turrin, what ability do you think is better: Kazekage Puppet or True Body/100 Puppets combination?


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## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Quote 1.) I was operating under manga/reputation knowledge. Isn't Sasori another one that's famous? This is the dude that's killed the strongest Kazekage and took down some sort of country. I thought that that was something people just knew, like Kakashi's copy ninja thing.
> .


Even Chiyo, his grand-mother and a someone whose been a shinobi for decades, did not know of his accomplishments until he revealed them to her.



> The difference between v1 and v2 for me is the ability for most opponents to physically guard. So unless the distance is super short, the listed characters should still be capable of using things like Susano'o or Kamui.


Even Minato could only activate FTG a millimeter before Ei's fist hit his face.



> A evades and/or tanks anything Hiruko wants to do in v1, then smashes the puppet once close enough.
> 
> Sasori summons the Kazekage puppet. It either rushes A (and gets crushed) or spews Satetsu.
> 
> If the fact that Sasori's puppet resembles strongest Kazekage is not enough to prompt v2 on its own, I believe that the appearance of Sandaime's famed Jutsu would definitely suffice.


I fail to see why Sasori wouldn't see the need for defense after seeing Ei's speed



> Sasori attacks A with Drizzle or the giant spear (probably Drizzle, his opening Satetsu move in canon) because he needs something quick to have a chance at hitting A.
> 
> A uses super lightning reflexes to dodge Drizzle with Shunshin, and counter kills the puppet with a chop to its neck (think Sasuke).


I fail to see why Ei wouldn't go for the puppeteer. 



> I don't think that's unreasonable.


It's pretty unreasonable, as it assumes Sasori witnesses Ei's speed and strength, yet still doesn't take any defensive measures. Meanwhile Ei goes R2 the moment he see's a lower end Satetsu tech and just so happens to target the puppet first rather than the puppeteer. I don't see how you don't realize your expecting Ei to act perfectly and Sasori to act foolishly, despite Sasori being the more intelligent character.

I also wish to know what Ei does after he smashes the Kazekage Puppet. Does he smash Sasori, and if so how does he predict the successive ambush w/o knowledge of the heart container? 



> Also Turrin, what ability do you think is better: Kazekage Puppet or True Body/100 Puppets combination?


Depends on the opponent.


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## Rocky (May 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Even Chiyo, his grand-mother and a someone whose been a shinobi for decades, did not know of his accomplishments until he revealed them to her.



Ah, I thought he was famous.

Still though, the 3rd Kazekage is, and the very technique that brought him such fame would be enough for v2. 

Disagree if you want. We can have different opinions. 



> Even Minato could only activate FTG a millimeter before Ei's fist hit his face.





			
				Me said:
			
		

> *So unless the distance is super short*





> I fail to see why Sasori wouldn't see the need for defense after seeing Ei's speed



He wouldn't see A's v2 speed, and there's no guarantee that would even see a v1 Shunshin either. A doesn't need it to evade Hiruko's attacks.



> I fail to see why Ei wouldn't go for the puppeteer.



He might.



> It's pretty unreasonable, as it assumes Sasori witnesses Ei's speed and strength, yet still doesn't take any defensive measures.



Sasori isn't witnessing the full extent of A's speed & strength, so excuse me if I don't think he'll throw up some spherical defense that we've never seen before just because A was good enough to beat Hiruko. 

Sasori seems to be a bit careless with the thing anyway. I mean, tell me the reason he sent the Kazekage puppet into melee range with Sakura. Satetsu was his best option against her, and he'd _just_ seen her strength. I don't care if he thought he was fast enough to hit her; so was Iron Sand, and with that there's no risk of getting punched.

Smae thing later on when she was paralyzed. Why not just finish her with Iron Sand from afar? Even if he figured she couldn't move, there's always a chance, no matter how small, that Sakura possessed some jutsu or trait to circumvent poison. It ended up costing him because she _did_ have a way around it.

It was carelessness. 



> I also wish to know what Ei does after he smashes the Kazekage Puppet. Does he smash Sasori, and if so how does he predict the successive ambush w/o knowledge of the heart container?



Yes, he would go on to smash Sasori. Liger Bomb would probably paste him and end it there, but as for he would react to an "ambush.."

_By hearing it, like Sakura_...


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## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

*Sasori Vs Ei in a no knowledge scenario*

First off i want to get rid of the assumption that Ei can go into a fight without activating his shroud. 

He did so against team taka, to stop KCM, to attack obito. This is his default setting. 

Even if we are to assume he doesnt start in RCM, hiruko attacks cant hurt him at all 

Mabui technique failed to harm him in the slightest. While it ripped tsunade appart, a woman who survived multiple kusanagi strikes. Kusanagi which is stated to be diamond hard mind you 

So even the senbon wont do anything but bounce off Ei skin. 

We also saw Ei has the speed even in base to straight up blitz. He blitz zetsu in base. kishi made a point to state Ei even in base is very fast. 

_By hearing it, like Sakura_

Hiruko is a stationary target btw. this is heavily implied when sasori waits for sakura and chiyo to attack. 

_By hearing it, like Sakura_

Anywayz in short am sure no one will argue that Ei smashes hiruko with no issues on his first blitz. in base or V1.

Now the kazekage bout. 

Sasori will obviously see Ei as a threat. he wont attempt to have the kazekage come close, because unlike sakura he will know Ei has the speed to casually avoid traps. 

therefore satetsu. There is a big disadvantage to its use. 

Sasori human puppet cannot perform seals for jutsu. therefore sasori must perform said seals first. then move the puppet into action. look at the scans below 

_By hearing it, like Sakura_ seal to release iron sand 

_By hearing it, like Sakura_ moving the puppet to attack with iron sand 

note chiyo puppet had more than enough speed to completely avoid satetsu shigure 

Link removed

The puppet jutsu weakeness is displayed through out sasori battle. 

Link removed moving the puppet before satetsu can be performed again 

Link removed and again to increase the speed of satetsu using the kazekage chakra 

In short sasori who would already have trouble reacting will be hard pressed to react then move his puppet before his puppet can finally attack when he is fighting Ei in V1. When Ei is moving so fast jugo can just about put his arm up. or when Ei V1 shushin takes him so far karin can no longer sense him 

I think serious or not. Ei gets to sasori and breaks him only to realize sasori reforms. At this point if sasori keeps using the kazekage. Ei will break it. though i see no reason why he would persist. The obvious time lag between sasori reaction and the puppet attacking will make his attacks too slow. 

I mean sakura on panel already said just by looking at his fingers where he would attack next can be predicted. so we have sakura shabby reactions being able to avoid sasori fast attacks based on the fact that sasori must first react then control his puppet into an attack. 

i see no reason why Ei will slightly struggle in base, V1 or V2 to hit sasori when sasori basically needs to perform 2 different movements just to get satetsu shigure going. 

Also note satetsu failed to break chiyo chakra shield. do read up on chiyo chakra shield and RCM mode. RCM mode clearly gets more hype. 

as far as piercing power is concerned chidori>>iron sand. So even if iron sand hit Ei there is no guarantee it will breach his armor and his skin. 

considering in base he can tank without a stratch mabui teleportation technique. Chidori is one of the most penetrative attacks. This is even shown when yoton FRS fails to cut juudara in half yet sasuke chidori biscets him. 

100 puppet bout will be futile. granted each puppet is going to be faster than the sandaime naturally however no puppet has any jutsu that can even hurt base Ei. Ei will keep attacking sasori till he figures out the cannister weakness. 

Ei really honestly cant loose. i just dont see it.

*note: ill straight up say Ei might just be as durable as his dad. Ei being unscratched after the mabui teleportation technique might have been kishi way to tell us. Ei body and his dad body could be just as sturdy. *


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## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

@Rocky

Here's the bottom line, your not being fair to Sasori in your assessment. Sasori will see Ei's speed, strength, and raiton-chakra-modo against Hiroku. Yet he will take no defensive measures. Meanwhile Ei will immediately go up to R2 the moment that Sasori uses even a minor Satetsu technique, like sand drizzle. You've said the reason Ei would do this is because he'd know about Satetsu and acknowledge it's threat. Yet you don't account at all for the possibility of Sasori knowing about Raiton-Chakra-Modo and accounting for it's threat. 

This should be a too way street rocky. If Satetsu Shigure is enough to prompt R2, than Ei's Raiton-Chakra-Modo should be enough to prompt Sasori to take defensive measures. If were assuming it's likely that Ei knows about Satetsu due to a famous ninja using it, than we should assume Sasori is even more likely to know about Raiton-Chakra-Modo because 2 famous Ninja's used it.

As far as the rest of the argument, goes Sasori was careless against and old-woman and kid. He's not making that mistake against someone who looks like the juggxrnaught and packing a famous Kage Technique like RCM.

Edit: In-fact if we really are going off manga/rep knowledge than Sasori will almost certainly know Ei is the Raikage and all about how fearsome he can be, and RCM. Meanwhile Ei will know nothing about Sasori. So Sasori is much more likely to up his game and take defensive measures before Ei does.


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## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

Turrin you also arent being fair to Ei. 

first off what makes you think sasori techniques remotely have the speed to bother V1 Ei?? when he is avoiding point blank chakra cannons. 

considering sasori must perform 2 different movements just to have satetsu shigure come Ei way. 

even shigure was so slow chiyo puppet could avoid it. while protecting sakura. that pretty much means Ei will casually waltz through it and come for sasori. 

Something you have utterly failed to realize is puppet users use poison because their attacks arent particularly fast. 

puppet user using poison is also well known. Sakura says sasori uses poison right. she wasnt asking she was having chiyo confirm. 

this also goes back to my saying kankuro a genin used poison as well. 

Now you came up with something he does which i believed the others didnt do. sadly they do. 

kankuro disguises himself as a puppet to prevent the enemy closing in on him once the puppet is by passed. 

chiyo made her arm into a puppet 

sasori made himself a puppet. 

kankuro method was the rookie stage of what the latter 2 did. Considering everyone knows including genin shino that a puppeter weakness is close range combat, once the puppet is by passed they are open. 

this is the reason why all 3 puppet users found work arounds. 

Their offensive work around is the same, their attacks arent particularly very fast so they poison them.

*note: defensive iron sand sphere is fan fic. however sasori has another means of defending himself while attacking which he is far more likely to use. kaiho in all directions 360 degrees. is a much better tactic and one he would most likely use. Yes in this case depending on the distance, he will push Ei back. though i still doubt he can hit Ei with it. considering base bee 1 shunshin crossed to the other mountain side. which was only far enough for karin to sense

while V1 Ei shunshin took him so far out she couldnt sense Ei anymore. 

V2 Ei is no doubt much faster than V1 Ei and Bee 

So Ei should get far out of the way. Which works more in sasori favor. I recant my statement. its not as easy as i previously thought. *


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## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Karin couldn't sense Ei because she suppressed her chakra in order to hide from the team's sensor. The moment she released her chakra, she managed to actually sense Ei as shown here:

Manda


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

I was surprised about the idea Sasori was even considered much since Pain vs Jiraiya. Or even after Sai vs Deidara and Sasori.


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## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

@narutoX28 
Fair enough 
Still point blank chakra cannons being evaded . Means iron sand evaded by Sakura will be walked througj cadually by Ei 

Sasori gotta do like 2 separate moves just to fire off satetsu attacks 

See post above which you didn't attempt to counter


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## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28
> Fair enough
> Still point blank chakra cannons being evaded . Means iron sand evaded by Sakura will be walked througj cadually by Ei



 Except it is a rather predictable strike in comparison to Satetsu. Even Darui and C anticipated the attack.

prevents

 Not saying it wasn't a respectable feat, but with Sasori's high stamina and Satetsu's unpredictability, it will be harder to dodge. But as I stated, Sasori only needs one scratch with Satetsu and can easily withstand Ei's blows as he'll just regenerate with ease.



> Sasori gotta do like 2 separate moves just to fire off satetsu attacks
> 
> See post above which you didn't attempt to counter



 He doesn't have to, not when he can easily control 100 puppets without the movement of his fingers. 

I might counter your post, but it seems ridiculously long and I'm rather lazy to refute all of it.


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## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

@narutoX28
You can't prove iron sand can scartch Ei though 
Not when a basic chakra shield is blocking satetsu moving at speed of sound like you say 

RCM>>> chKra shield in durability 

Read up on them please

 using his core to control 100 puppets is a separate jutsu and if he could do it with the kazekage he would have 

Since obviously Sakura was reading his finger movements 

Can't make up shit for sasori . He didn't control kazekage with his core therefore either he won't or he can't


@Turrin my apologies. it seems all sasori puppets are human puppets. 
he also gained Kabuto's knowledge

note 300 bodies. 

with this information does sasori level change?

i also recant my statement about the ambush. Sasori went after the kazekage 3 times. 

this was used to hype sasori ability 

he also gained Kabuto's knowledge


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## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If were assuming it's likely that Ei knows about Satetsu due to a famous ninja using it, than we should assume Sasori is even more likely to know about Raiton-Chakra-Modo because 2 famous Ninja's used it.



Sure.

We can say that Sasori should recognize A's lightning chakra form, and we can even say that he would take these "defensive measures" (or at least try to) with Iron Sand that we haven't seen used. I have no problem with that.

I'd now like to know what defensive options Sasori has to explore against v2 A.  A is ascending to max power in response to the _ermergance_ of Satetsu out of the puppets mouth (that process isn't instantaneous), and he doesn't have to wait for Sasori to shape it into anything. 

...and if A doesn't wait, Sasori _won't have the time_ to shape it into anything. The Yellow Flash barely had time to flash. The distance is going to be _relatively short_ as A had just smashed Hiruko. Though it's a larger distance than what A blitzed Minato from, Sasori doesn't possess Minato's legendary reflexes. Iron Sand doesn't protect Sasori at instantaneous speeds like Hiraishin does either.

A would probably go for Sasori himself without knowledge, but Sasori isn't exactly quiet when he puts himself back together. A would have plenty of time to run over and stomp on the Kazekage puppet's head. Elbowing Sasori across the battlefield in an alternative option, which would give the Raikage even more time to dispose of the Kazekage. Sasori has ability to rebuild himself, but that doesn't translate to being able to do so, pick up the Kazekage, _and_ shield himself with Satetsu all before one of the most reflexive characters in the manga can do anything about it.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'd now like to know what defensive options Sasori has to explore against v2 A.  A is ascending to max power in response to the _ermergance_ of Satetsu out of the puppets mouth (that process isn't instantaneous), and he doesn't have to wait for Sasori to shape it into anything.


Ei's going to immediately recognize Satetsu, the moment some black substances comes out of the Kazekage-Puppets mouth, and immediately attack in that moment? I don't see that as likely, as even Chiyo did not do this, who is vastly more knowledgable about the Kazekage, Sasori's Human-Puppets, and Satetsu than Ei. I would think that Ei would at least need to witness an actual Satetsu Technique, to amp up to R2.



> ...and if A doesn't wait, Sasori won't have the time to shape it into anything. The Yellow Flash barely had time to flash. The distance is going to be relatively short as A had just smashed Hiruko. Though it's a larger distance than what A blitzed Minato from, Sasori doesn't possess Minato's legendary reflexes. Iron Sand doesn't protect Sasori at instantaneous speeds like Hiraishin does either.


Like I said above I really doubt Ei is going for R2, the moment something comes out of the Kazekage's mouth, but sure let's play this out anyway.

It took three panels for Satetsu to form two Kesshou-Shapes [1], to defend Ei, Sasori only needs one to form. So it should take roughly half that time. 

When Ei amped up to R2 in response to Sasuke's MS, it took him two pages [1][2]. Than he actually has to cross the distance with Shunshin and launch a successive attack after using Shunshin, which is quick still takes some time [1]. In the Minato instance it was the same thing as well, he starts amping his shroud at the bottom right panel on this page [1] and doesn't completely the blitz until bottom right panel two pages later [2]. Against Naruto same thing, he started amping his shroud on the left hand middle panel of this page [1] and does not complete the blitz until bottom left panel on the next page [2]. Same thing against Madara, he starts amping his shroud on the bottom left panel [or before then] of this page [1] and does not complete the blitz until the top panel two pages later [2].

And while panel count certainly isn't an entirely accurate expression of time, we have other indicators besides that in the actions of the characters. There is enough time between when Ei starts amping his shroud and when he completes his blitz attempt for B to talk, Minato to reach into his pouch an scatter numerous Hiraishin Kunai while talking, and drop another Hiraishin Kunai next to Ei [1]. Mei and Ei had enough time to talk and Mei to cast her Youton Technique before Ei amping his shroud and his blitz Madara. Ei, Tsunade, B, and Naruto all had time to talk before Ei completed amping his shroud and his blitz on Naruto. 

This all tells us Sasori can form a single Kessho shape around himself and the Kazekage extremely quickly, and while Ei is still quick, it does take time for him to go R2 and blitz, enough time where Sasori is probably going to finish forming that single Kessho shape.

Edit: or even if it's partially formed as long as it's covering most of him by the time Ei's blitz goes off that's enough 



> A would probably go for Sasori himself without knowledge, but Sasori isn't exactly quiet when he puts himself back together. A would have plenty of time to run over and stomp on the Kazekage puppet's head.


Why wouldn't he just try and stomp on Sasori again. I really see no reason for him to go for the puppet, when the puppeteer is in-front of him. Though I also think noise or no noise, Ei will have a moment of what the fuck is going on before he starts immediately going on the offensive again.



> Sasori has ability to rebuild himself, but that doesn't translate to being able to do so, pick up the Kazekage, and shield himself with Satetsu all before one of the most reflexive characters in the manga can do anything about it.


I think it depends on how Sasori plays it. If Sasori is smart he can just play dead, until Ei releases his shroud, and the noise comes from piecing himself together, but he doesn't have to do that, to control an arm carrying a weapon to backstabbed Ei. Though I guess that depends on how smart Sasori is, but he did use a similar strategy against Sakura and Chiyo albeit that was with the canister swap, but that at least shows he's aware of how effective such a strategy can be.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

I'd like to note that this Kazekage puppet talk is pointless if A doesn't allow Sasori to actually summon the puppet safely. 

Even v1 A can pop up in people's faces. If Sasori jumps out of Hiruko, now completely vulnerable to RCM Raikage, then the only way he doesn't find himself in _this_, _this_, or _this_ position is if A fucks around. 

I'm noticing A has to do quite a bit of fucking around for Sasori to stand a chance here. 



Turrin said:


> Ei's going to immediately recognize Satetsu, the moment some black substances comes out of the Kazekage-Puppets mouth, and immediately attack in that moment? I don't see that as likely, as even Chiyo did not do this, who is vastly more knowledgable about the Kazekage, Sasori's Human-Puppets, and Satetsu than Ei. I would think that Ei would at least need to witness an actual Satetsu Technique, to amp up to R2.



Chiyo stood there watching Satetsu spew out of things mouth. It isn't that she didn't recognize that the "black substance" was Iron Sand. Sasori can set up as much as he wants if A's just going to _let him._ My argument is that A doesn't.



> This all tells us Sasori can form a single Kessho shape around himself and the Kazekage extremely quickly, and while Ei is still quick, it does take time for him to go R2 and blitz, enough time where Sasori is probably going to finish forming that single Kessho shape.



You didn't account for the time it takes Sasori to actually release Satetsu from the Kazekage. Sakura and Chiyo were able to hold _an_ _entire conversation_ about the advantages of human puppetry while Sasori took his shit out. It takes A a moment to raise his chakras up to "v2 spamming" levels, but not _that_ long.

Panels and pages aren't an accurate way gauge time, but my bet is v2 A will already be on his way to Sasori by the time the puppet's _mouth shuts_, before any shapes are formed. 



> Why wouldn't he just try and stomp on Sasori again. I really see no reason for him to go for the puppet, when the puppeteer is in-front of him. Though I also think noise or no noise, Ei will have a moment of what the fuck is going on before he starts immediately going on the offensive again.



I mean...he _could_ just hit Sasori again. I accounted for that in my last post. Sasori can't do anything if A keeps breaking him before he can fully reform. 

I do agree that A will have a brief "wtf" moment, but A's got incredibly quick reflexes. This moment of surprise won't last so long that A Sasori finishes piecing himself back together, picks up the Kazekage, and surrounds himself with Iron Sand.



> I think it depends on how Sasori plays it. If Sasori is smart he can just play dead, until Ei releases his shroud, and the noise comes from piecing himself together, but he doesn't have to do that, to control an arm carrying a weapon to backstabbed Ei.



If he can control individual body parts while in pieces, then he can attempt it if he plays it smart. An ambush like that may still fail if A hears whatever attack Sasori tried to blindside him with, or the attack fails to scratch Base A. He did tank Mabui's teleportation jutsu.


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## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

@turrin 

Amping to R2 and attacking is much quicker  than sasori who must form a seal to have he kazekage puppet use iron sand 
Then use cjakra strings to have the puppet perform Jutsu

Btw using pages to determine the speed of an attack is massively inaccurate 

BM Naruto shot BD at obito in 1 page both the charge and the attack reaching obito

Yet obito called it slow . 

Just saying the obvious error with using pages . A amping and attacking would be quicker because A is the faster of the 2. Therefore has the quicker attack speed


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## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28
> You can't prove iron sand can scartch Ei though
> Not when a basic chakra shield is blocking satetsu moving at speed of sound like you say
> 
> RCM>>> chKra shield in durability



 Your condescending attitude is amusing considering you don't understand what you're talking about.

 I hope you do realize MS Sasuke's Enton Spikes would've cut up Ei in a million pieces and Iron Sand is quite frankly just as sharp and far more dense than Enton is as well as the fact that it's actually moving at high velocities. How Satetsu wouldn't be able to scratch Ei is beyond me. His RnY isn't even implied to be that durable compared to what most Kage level ninja can do.



> Read up on them please
> 
> using his core to control 100 puppets is a separate jutsu and if he could do it with the kazekage he would have



 You do realize that Sasori didn't reveal his Puppet Body until after the Kazekage was killed correct? There's no reason he simply can't control just one puppet using his core when he simply could using 100 puppets. That's ridiculous logic and you know it.



> Since obviously Sakura was reading his finger movements
> 
> Can't make up shit for sasori . He didn't control kazekage with his core therefore either he won't or he can't



 Sure, but does Ei have the skill to identify how Sasori will strike with just witnessing the movement of the fingers? The only reason Sakura could was likely due to specializing in evasive maneuvers thanks to Tsunade and that quite frankly requires being able to analyze an opponent's body movements effectively. Ei doesn't specialize in that and therefore should be less analytical than Sakura.

 Not that it matters. Sasori proved he's far more unpredictable with Satetsu.

 Already addressed the final point above.


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## Turrin (May 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'd like to note that this Kazekage puppet talk is pointless if A doesn't allow Sasori to actually summon the puppet safely.
> 
> Even v1 A can pop up in people's faces. If Sasori jumps out of Hiruko, now completely vulnerable to RCM Raikage, then the only way he doesn't find himself in _this_, _this_, or _this_ position is if A fucks around.


Suigetsu could react to R1-Ei which Non-CS-Sasuke blitz'd [1]. CS2-Juugo also reacted to him and Sasuke aim dodged him landing a counter w/o using Shunshin. To give some perspective Deidara, who has the same speed stat as Sasori and inferior Taijutsu stat, at least react to one of Hebi-Sasuke's Shunshin blitz attempts [the second being a matter of contention], and Yamato who has a inferior speed stat to and equivalent Taijutsu stat, reacted to Sasuke's speed as well. Another example is Shoten-Kisame was able to react to 6th-Gate Gai, enough to swing his sword at him, and while 6th-Gate-Gai's attack did land first, it was at least close, and 6th-Gate-Gai is a-lot faster than R1-Ei and Kisame speed stat is inferior to Sasori's [1]. Or Hidan reacting to Kakashi with a vastly inferior speed stat to Sasori, despite Kakashi having the same speed-stat and Sharingan as Sasuke who aim dodged R1-Raikage and counter attacked him. And Sasori himself must have been capable off reacting to Satetsu, otherwise he would have never won against Sandaime-Kazekage, and Satetsu is also incredibly fast.

So I'm not really buying R1-Ei blitzing Sasori, as I've said I find speed gaps overrated, unless they are quite tremendous or the person is manipulating S/T.



> I'm noticing A has to do quite a bit of fucking around for Sasori to stand a chance here.


I think I've been extremely fair considering IC Ei has opted on numerous ocassions to just stand around doing nothing in RCM [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]. If he pulled that same shit at any time during the match with Sasori, it's going to be a cake walk for Sasori to pull out Kazekage and Satetsu defense. Yet I'm not even accounting for that high-likely event, instead i'm specifically arguing on your terms, that Ei will start out very aggressively with R1 and instantly move to R2, at least when Sasori uses a Satetsu technique. So don't tell me about the fucking around argument Rocky, because if you want me to use the fucking around argument, I have more than the ammo to do so, and you won't like the conclusion.



> Chiyo stood there watching Satetsu spew out of things mouth. It isn't that she didn't recognize that the "black substance" was Iron Sand. S.


I never said Chiyo didn't know what Satetsu was. I said Chiyo need a moment to register what she was seeing, Ei should take even more than moment because he lacks Chiyo's knowledge.



> asori can set up as much as he wants if A's just going to let him. My argument is that A doesn't


And my point is that Ei probably isn't going to realize the threat just from seeing some black-dust come out of the puppets mouth, until he actually see's it formed into a Satetsu Technique, at least not to the point of going R2.



> You didn't account for the time it takes Sasori to actually release Satetsu from the Kazekage.


Middle-Left panel of the page clearly shows Sandaime-Kazekage releasing Satetsu from his mouth [1], so yes I did. It's just that Sasori can do it that fast, when he wants to.



> akura and Chiyo were able to hold an entire conversation about the advantages of human puppetry while Sasori took his shit out.


Sasori was fucking around with Chiyo and Sakura, hence him being willing to take his sweat time while chit chatting with them. Later mid-battle, in the page I posted, he releases it much quicker, and therefore I go by that. 



> It takes A a moment to raise his chakras up to "v2 spamming" levels, but not that long.


I very clearly showed it takes more than "moment", and takes longer than forming a single Kessho-Shape.



> Panels and pages aren't an accurate way gauge time, but my bet is v2 A will already be on his way to Sasori by the time the puppet's mouth shuts, before any shapes are formed


Than explain why forming a Kessho-Shape takes longer than Ei amping his shroud and completing his blitz, despite the fact that in every single instance from the manga it appears to take longer than that.



> mean...he could just hit Sasori again. I accounted for that in my last post. Sasori can't do anything if A keeps breaking him before he can fully reform.


Sasori can do something it's called heart-container swap into Sandaime-Kazekage Puppet.



> I do agree that A will have a brief "wtf" moment, but A's got incredibly quick reflexes. This moment of surprise won't last so long that A Sasori finishes piecing himself back together, picks up the Kazekage, and surrounds himself with Iron Sand.


I didn't say it would. But it could easily last long enough for Sasori to Shunshin backwards, gaining distance from Ei to perform other actions. Unless of course Ei is still in R2, but Ei tends to amp down his shroud from R2 to R1 and even turn off RCM, pretty willingly. For example he turned off his shroud the moment his leg-drop was stopped [1], turned off his shroud after distancing himself from Minato [2], turned off his shroud against Madara multiple times  [3] [4]. So I very much doubt after believing he defeated Sasori that he will keep his RCM at R2, and in-fact think chances are he will deactivate it entirely.



> If he can control individual body parts while in pieces, then he can attempt it if he plays it smart.


He obviously can as that is how he pieces himself back together after Sasuke's Okasho



> An ambush like that may still fail if A hears whatever attack Sasori tried to blindside him with, or the attack fails to scratch Base A.


Even SM-Jiraiya, SM-Fusaku, and SM-Shima couldn't react in time to avoid an ambush when they believed their enemy was dead, I really doubt an EI whose deactivated RCM will be able to hear and react to an ambush from Sasori.



> If he can control individual body parts while in pieces, then he can attempt it if he plays it smart.


Mabui's technique really wasn't that impressive, it only caused minor scratches to Tsunade [1], who really has no notable durability feats outside of regen. So no I don't think that feat suggest Ei would be capable of tanking a sword slash or stab w/o even a tiny knick. He's tough, but nothing indicates he's that tough.



Icegaze said:


> @Turrin my apologies. it seems all sasori puppets are human puppets.
> [1]


Good catch, I will have to translate the raw to confirm tho. If that's the case my opinion of Sasori increases even further.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

I had a huge response typed out, but this is going nowhere fast. Again.

Even in your proposed best-case scenario for Sasori (ie. A is jobbing) where Sasori escapes Hiruko and summons the Kazekage safely, spews Satetsu without interruption, _and_ forms an omnidirectional defense around himself in time, he _still_ loses.

Sasori's's got no surefire way of hitting A with anything that would damage him. RCM Raikage plays defense until Sasori runs out of juice. Instead of low it's high diff, but A still wins.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

I honestly doubt that Kishi thinks of Sasori as highly as you think Turrin, not even half of what you think of him. lol
Deidara, Sasori, and Kakuzu were only good in their arcs. The moment the others got stronger, they have falling behind, and they are below Sai/Kankuro's level now. lol 

Heck, it even stated in the manga that Kankuro has surpassed him. 





Please don't tell what you got from the War Arc is that Kankuro is also on A or Minato's level. lol


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

^ True, though it is fun debating for Sasori.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Even in your proposed best-case scenario for Sasori)


Actually it's one of the worst case scenario's. The best case scenarios would be

A) the match starting at Mid to Long
B) Ei choosing to stand around in RCM like he did multiple times in his match against Taka. 
C) Ei not knowing about Satetsu
D) Considering Sasori's plethora of Human-Puppets one having an LOS Blocker or Fuutons


Those are the best case scenarios. Again I don't really appreciate the accusation, when I've been more than fair to discuss this on your terms where the assumption is the match starts at Short, Ei doesn't stand around, Ei knows Satetsu, and not even mentioning the possibility of Sasori's other human-puppets techniques having an utility against Ei rather one note fighting style.



> (ie. A is jobbing here Sasori escapes Hiruko and summons the Kazekage safely, spews Satetsu without interruption, and forms an omnidirectional defense around himself in time, he still loses.


It's not a matter of jobbing it, it's a matter of Ei lacking knowledge of Sasori's capabilities and Sasori, and therefore not being able to respond perfectly in every situation. Sasori will escape Hiroku, because Ei doesn't know about Sasori's true body. Sasori will summon Kazekage and form Kessho defense, because Ei won't know to up his game so much as he doesn't know the threat that such a thing possess as he has no knowledge of Sasori's ability to manufacture human-puppets. 

Things would be different in a full knowledge scenario, but here were discussing manga knowledge and Sasori has been crafty enough that few know of his Jutsu.



> he still loses.
> 
> Sasori's's got no surefire way of hitting A with anything that would damage him. RCM Raikage plays defense until Sasori runs out of juice. Instead of low it's high diff, but A still wins.


Ei is not omniscient. He has no sensing skills or other means of detecting attacks, besides his eye-sight. Satetsu due to it's versatility can be shaped into numerous different attacks, and made to attack from all different directions at various times. Ei can't evade an attack he doesn't see coming. Sasori with only a bit of his chakra also made Satetsu cover a massive AOE, so applying more chakra he can cover an even greater breath with numerous unpredictable attacks from all angles, again not something I see Ei being able to consistently evade throughout a extremely long attrition battle. Beyond that Sasori can ambush Ei as i've outlined. Ei can also run into a Satetsu spike or weapon, when trying to break through Satetsu as he has no knowledge Satetsu is poisoned, so he wouldn't consider the threat of being scratched by such a thing. Sasori also has traps with poisoned gas that Ei can breath in or 100 puppets to distract Ei while Sasori attacks with Satetsu.

I don't see Ei being able to consistently evade all of these different methods Sasori can win during an extremely long attrition battle. 

If, you think differently than fine, I just go back to the fact that your perception of how Ei performs seems radically different to me than how he actually performed in the manga-cannon. But everyones entitled to their opinion and it's not like I'm saying Sasori is an entirely different tier than Ei, I just think he's been indicated to be stronger overall and can beat Ei more often than not under various conditions.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I honestly doubt that Kishi thinks of Sasori as highly as you think Turrin, not even half of what you think of him. lol
> Deidara, Sasori, and Kakuzu were only good in their arcs. The moment the others got stronger, they are below Sai/Kankuro's level now. lol


Kankuro had surpassed Edo-Sasori, I.E. the one with none of his puppets and had lost his will. Kankuro himself explains this. Your just making yourself loose credibility by arguing he surpassed living-Sasori. And the idea that any of them are individually on the level of Sasori, Kakuzu, or even Deidara is just laughable. Even the weakest one, Deidara, required a team effort from the ambush-squad to be defeated, and one should at least account somewhat for his better performances, and this is coming from someone who thinks he's overrated as hell, but this is just such an absurd underration, perhaps the greatest i've ever seen as far as Deidara is bellow Sai "level", that even I think this is absolutely ridiculous.



> Please don't tell what you got from the War Arc is that Kankuro is also on A or Minato's level. lol


Fuck I find that more believable than Kankuro being an entire "level" above Sasori, but somehow nowhere near Ei or Minato. But nah what I got from the war-arc was that Kankuro surpassed a pathetic shell of Sasori's former glory.

As far as how highly Kishi thinks of Sasori, he had him defeat the Strongest-Kazekage, whose a bad match up for him, and became much stronger. That's all one should need to know that Kishi's evaluation is much closer to mine than your ridiculous one.


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Turrin, this is why you ignore Hussain. He's clearly trying to rustle your jimmies.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Turrin, this is why you ignore Hussain. He's clearly trying to rustle your jimmies.


Well I just find it sad, because he's otherwise a solid poster, but the moment you mention anyone is even remotely close to Minato who isn't God-Tier, he goes nuts.


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## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Those are the best case scenarios. Again I don't really appreciate the accusation, when I've been more than fair to discuss this on your terms where the assumption is the match starts at Short, Ei doesn't stand around, Ei knows Satetsu, and not even mentioning the possibility of Sasori's other human-puppets techniques having an utility against Ei rather one note fighting style.



We've both been humoring each other.

The assumption isn't that the match starts at short, btw. I thought we agreed it would get there because A has to smash Hiruko. 

Also, you've pretty much been arguing that A will stand around long enough so that Sasori can set up.



> It's not a matter of jobbing it, it's a matter of Ei lacking knowledge of Sasori's capabilities and Sasori, and therefore not being able to respond perfectly in every situation.



Why is A always responding? _What if he's the one applying the pressure?_

As soon as Sasori exits Hiruko, there's nothing stopping A from flickering over there and beating the shit out of a puppeteer in close quarters combat.

But alas, A has to stand around and let Sasori pull a scroll, summon the Kazekage, and spew Iron Sand before he starts moving. 

Please don't bring up v2 either; A doesn't need it to pop up in front of Sasori. He could probably block A like Jugo and KCM Naruto did, but he get's mauled in close quarters. There's no time to summon a puppet.

I could easily see this occurring if A is aware that Sasori is a pupeteer. 



> Ei is not omniscient. He has no sensing skills or other means of detecting attacks, besides his eye-sight. Satetsu due to it's versatility can be shaped into numerous different attacks, and made to attack from all different directions at various times. Ei can't evade an attack he doesn't see coming.
> 
> Sasori with only a bit of his chakra also made Satetsu cover a massive AOE, so applying more chakra he can cover an even greater breath with numerous unpredictable attacks from all angles, again not something I see Ei being able to consistently evade throughout a extremely long attrition battle.



The key would be not letting Satetsu get behind him. He can keep his distance and rely on his super reflexes. If Sasori starts to form an attack that can cover a wide range, he takes off in the opposite direction with Shunshin. 

You don't need to be all-knowing to evade things. Hell, the largest AoE attack we saw from Sasori was evaded by Sakura for the most part; she only ended up with a few scratches. He's going to need more direct hits than that to break A's shroud & durability, and RCM Raikage >x50 Sakura in terms of movement & reflex speed. 



> ]Beyond that Sasori can ambush Ei as i've outlined. Ei can also run into a Satetsu spike or weapon, when trying to break through Satetsu as he has no knowledge Satetsu is poisoned, so he wouldn't consider the threat of being scratched by such a thing.



An ambush is possible, but since we don't know if Sasori's attempt at one would turn out like Jiraiya vs. Pain or Minato vs. Obito (or if Sasori would even try to ambush at all), I find this a bit pointless to bring up. If you just want me to say it's possible, then sure, it's possible. 

As for "running into something", he should have the reflexes to stop himself should Sasori put up a problematic defense. There's nothing suggesting that a spike would even break A's cloaked skin though. 



> If, you think differently than fine, I just go back to the fact that your perception of how Ei performs seems radically different to me than how he actually performed in the manga-cannon.





Funny you say that, when Sasori has done _none_ of this:



			
				You said:
			
		

> Sasori with only a bit of his chakra also made Satetsu cover a massive AOE, so applying more chakra he can cover an even greater breath with numerous unpredictable attacks from all angles, again not something I see Ei being able to consistently evade throughout a extremely long attrition battle. Beyond that Sasori can ambush Ei as i've outlined. Ei can also run into a Satetsu spike or weapon, when trying to break through Satetsu as he has no knowledge Satetsu is poisoned, so he wouldn't consider the threat of being scratched by such a thing. Sasori also has traps with poisoned gas that Ei can breath in or 100 puppets to distract Ei while Sasori attacks with Satetsu.



...in this manga.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

Except Chiyo who actually fought Sasori and have seen his power stated the same thing. Also, since all the informations the villages have were shared, Kankuro should as well know about Sasori's abilities. As for Kakuzu, sorry, but any attack from him will erase Sasori's puppets in no time. 

Well, you have seen how he was getting blitzed, no? 
Also, even if it's a team effort, they barely have problems with them. 


- lol, sorry but you're being really delusional to think Sasori or Kankuro is any where near that. Like seriously!  

A featless Kazekage, who has no hype out of his village that is by far the weakest village does not mean jackshit. We do not even know by how far he was stronger than the rest. For example, how do you know if the 3rd Kazekage is far stronger than the 4th Kazekage, or only slightly stronger than him? And we saw how powerful the 4th is.


Heck, the entire sand village's power was considered to be probably weaker than Jiraiya alone. 

Edit:
Just doubting that they can force him to not enter their village. 

[1]


> Well I just find it sad, because he's otherwise a solid poster, but the moment you mention anyone is even remotely close to Minato who isn't God-Tier, he goes nuts.



It's not like if I consider anyone a "God-tier" that just plain retarded from my perspective to compare anything to God. lol


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We've both been humoring each other.


How exactly are your humoring me again? 



> he assumption isn't that the match starts at short, btw. I thought we agreed it would get there because A has to smash Hiruko


No we didn't, I was humoring you by assuming the match starts at short. As if it starts at long/mid I can easily see Sasori opting for Kazekage, when Ei goes RCM, but before he smashes Hiroku.



> Also, you've pretty much been arguing that A will stand around long enough so that Sasori can set up


Straw-Man



> Why is A always responding? What if he's the one applying the pressure?


Pretty sure smashing Hiroku is doing the pressuring .



> As soon as Sasori exits Hiruko, there's nothing stopping A from flickering over there and beating the shit out of a puppeteer in close quarters combat.
> 
> But alas, A has to stand around and let Sasori pull a scroll, summon the Kazekage, and spew Iron Sand before he starts moving.


Except Ei not knowing what the fuck is going on due to a lack of knowledge.



> As soon as Sasori exits Hiruko, there's nothing stopping A from flickering over there and beating the shit out of a puppeteer in close quarters combat.
> 
> But alas, A has to stand around and let Sasori pull a scroll, summon the Kazekage, and spew Iron Sand before he starts moving.


Summoning is an act of Space-Time and therefore faster than Ei. Unless your saying he literally couldn't pull out a scroll, which again I don't agree R1-Ei is that fast.



> The key would be not letting Satetsu get behind him. He can keep his distance and rely on his super reflexes. .


He can't do that considering the amount of Satetsu attacks he'd need to account for. Sasori's initally Satetsu Shigure alone created like 20 individual bullet attacks, and that was an incredible small amount of Satetsu compared to the amount Sasori was able to control when only using a bit of his chakra.



> If Sasori starts to form an attack that can cover a wide range, he takes off in the opposite direction with Shunshin.


How long exactly do you think Ei can keep up R2 and Bijuu Chakra Pumped Shunshins?



> You don't need to be all-knowing to evade things. Hell, the largest AoE attack we saw from Sasori was evaded by Sakura for the most part; she only ended up with a few scratches. He's going to need more direct hits than that to break A's shroud & durability, and RCM Raikage >x50 Sakura in terms of movement & reflex speed.


So she only ended taking the intended damage? The attack is meant to scratch, and that's what it did to Sakura all over her body. And from an attack that only contained a bit of Sasori's chakra. And she ended up corned by Iron-Sand so she couldn't escape.



> An ambush is possible, but since we don't know if Sasori's attempt at one would turn out like Jiraiya vs. Pain or Minato vs. Obito (or if Sasori would even try to ambush at all), I find this a bit pointless to bring up. If you just want me to say it's possible, then sure, it's possible.


How is a possible win pointless lol.



> As for "running into something", he should have the reflexes to stop himself should Sasori put up a problematic defense. There's nothing suggesting that a spike would even break A's cloaked skin though.


No i'm saying he wouldn't even care about taking a scratch, because he wouldn't know about the poison.



> Funny you say that, when Sasori has done none of this:


I'm not talking about using Jutsu in logically possible ways, I was talking from a portrayal stand-point. Ei has never performed up to the standard of someone who according to you can fight an entire attrition battle against Sasori w/o taking a single scratch, despite Sasori having a myriad of options open to him, to potentially land that scratch.


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## Puppetry (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except Chiyo who actually fought Sasori and have seen his power stated the same thing.



_No._ I don't know where you've found that panel, but I've never seen/nor heard of it. All translations - aside from the dodgy snippet you provided - simply have Chiyo complimenting Kankurou, not stating he surpassed her grandson.




> Also, since all the informations the villages have were shared, Kankuro should as well know about Sasori's abilities.



This information sharing would have been helpful when Gengetsu was merrily slaughtering fodder thanks to his genjutsu. But it wasn't, because villages don't appear to pass around detailed files of deceased shinobi - however powerful - to every ninja alive.



> For example, how do you know if the 3rd Kazekage is far stronger than the 4th Kazekage, or only slightly stronger than him?



_By reading the manga._


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## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> How exactly are your humoring me again?



I'm going along with all your theories of Sasori. His actual performance in the manga wasn't even close to what you're saying here. 



> As if it starts at long/mid I can easily see Sasori opting for Kazekage, when Ei goes RCM, but before he smashes Hiroku.



A would still get to him if he starts in Hiruko unless the distance was asinine. 



> Pretty sure smashing Hiroku is doing the pressuring .



Yet he stops applying such pressure after smashing Hiruko because...?



> Except Ei not knowing what the fuck is going on due to a lack of knowledge.



Lack of knowledge on what? Sasori just jumped out of Hiruko. There's no reason for A to pause just because he doesn't know what's about to happen. _Especially_ if he knows Sasori is a puppet master.



> Summoning is an act of Space-Time and therefore faster than Ei. Unless your saying he literally couldn't pull out a scroll, which again I don't agree R1-Ei is that fast.



The time it takes for the puppet to appear once Sasori summons it is instantaneous. Pulling out a scroll and making the conscious effort to activate the summoning technique is not.

Whether or not Sasori can get the scroll out in time is irrelevant in the end. He'd now be in Jugo, Obito, or KCM Naruto's position...holding a scroll instead of blocking. He get's rocked.



> He can't do that considering the amount of Satetsu attacks he'd need to account for. Sasori's initally Satetsu Shigure alone created like 20 individual bullet attacks, and that was an incredible small amount of Satetsu compared to the amount Sasori was able to control when only using a bit of his chakra.



Wow, twenty bullets. 

A _dances_ around Satetsu. Outside of Drizzle, he could barely hit Chiyo-controlled Sakura. Even if he uses more chakra, A's evasion potential is _tiers_ above hers.



> How long exactly do you think Ei can keep up R2 and Bijuu Chakra Pumped Shunshins?



Biju amounts of chakra are not pumped into each flicker. 

The Biju amounts of chakra are gathered for the very purpose of spamming it.



> So she only ended taking the intended damage? The attack is meant to scratch, and that's what it did to Sakura all over her body. And from an attack that only contained a bit of Sasori's chakra. And she ended up corned by Iron-Sand so she couldn't escape.



Where's your proof that Sasori only intended to scratch Sakura? Why wouldn't he just kill her? I don't see how that's any better though, as attacks intended to scratch won't do anything.



> How is a possible win pointless lol.



The likelihood of such a win is undeterminable. 



> I'm not talking about using Jutsu in logically possible ways, I was talking from a portrayal stand-point.



A's speed hype is _legendary_, his stamina way hyped to be on par with Biju, and his durability received great portrayal from Mabui's technique. 

I can see him taking a fight of attrition without being scratched.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Your condescending attitude is amusing considering you don't understand what you're talking about.
> 
> I hope you do realize MS Sasuke's Enton Spikes would've cut up Ei in a million pieces and Iron Sand is quite frankly just as sharp and far more dense than Enton is as well as the fact that it's actually moving at high velocities. How Satetsu wouldn't be able to scratch Ei is beyond me. His RnY isn't even implied to be that durable compared to what most Kage level ninja can do.
> 
> ...



First off you deserve my condescension anyone comparing Enton spikes to satetsu does 
Amaterasu already is perfect for breachin defwnses . Shape manipulating it would casually go through things little satetsu failed to like chakra shield .  

Again read DB RCM>>>ChAkra shield . RCM nullifies attacks . Simple question for a simpleton 
If Sasuke chidori chiyo chakda shield what happens 

A doesn't need to read sasori finger movements . Sasori fingers won't be moving quicker than A can cross the distance needed to reach him . 
Sakura had to do that to avoid him. Btw this is the same Sakura that couldn't see pre Hebi sasuke shunshin 

A is >>>>>>>>wait for it >>>>>> pre hebi Sasuke in speed

Come at me little bro 

@turrin and every pro sasori here 
Please is there any slight evidence satetsu can breach RCM? When it failed to breach a chakra shield 

also note the fastest satetsu attack so far has been the shigure spikes . That failed to breach a basic chakra shield or even dent it 

It doesn't have chidori piercing power in the slightest . So why this assumption that if A is hit he would be hurt by it 

Don't forget this is A who in base isn't hurt by mabui tech 

The same tech that shredded tsunade . Who could withstand Kisangani strikes . Kisangani which is said to be diamond hard . 

Sorry notning in the manga indicates satetsu will damage A if he ran into it . Hoping to be damaged


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

@Turrin hey have you cross checked the raw 
i think it does say sasori puppets are all human puppets

which makes him even more hax

its obvious kishi didnt reveal every jutsu for all characters he even implies this more than once 

eg: neji 4 in ninjutsu yet uses no ninjutsu at all


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm going along with all your theories of Sasori. His actual performance in the manga wasn't even close to what you're saying here.


And what theories would those be? I said Sasori can form a Kessho shape. He formed two in the manga. 



> A would still get to him if he starts in Hiruko unless the distance was asinine.


Sure, if Sasori just stood there. 



> Yet he stops applying such pressure after smashing Hiruko because...?[Lack of knowledge on what? Sasori just jumped out of Hiruko. There's no reason for A to pause just because he doesn't know what's about to happen. Especially if he knows Sasori is a puppet master./QUOTE]
> Sasori escapes Hiroku as black amorphous blob. Ei is not going to know what that is, and the smart thing to do would be to wait and see what it is before charging it down, incase it's a trap. Unfortunately that gives Sasori the chances to distance himself from Ei, while simultaneously pulling out the Kazekage-Puppet.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And what theories would those be? I said Sasori can form a Kessho shape. He formed two in the manga.



post not aimed at all at me. but mind if i pitch in. 
Yes he can form a kessho shape. 



> Sure, if Sasori just stood there.



hiruko lacks mobility though. it would always be destroyed by A. sasori cant do anuthing about that



> Yet he stops applying such pressure after smashing Hiruko because...?[Lack of knowledge on what? Sasori just jumped out of Hiruko. There's no reason for A to pause just because he doesn't know what's about to happen. Especially if he knows Sasori is a puppet master.



@Rocky there is A reason. he has no idea what he is attacking. why not wait and see. seems to make more sense 



> Sasori escapes Hiroku as black amorphous blob. Ei is not going to know what that is, and the smart thing to do would be to wait and see what it is before charging it down, incase it's a trap. Unfortunately that gives Sasori the chances to distance himself from Ei, while simultaneously pulling out the Kazekage-Puppet.



turrin sasori jumps back. true however unless you implying he attempts to get ridiculously far there is no reason the distance would be so great that someone like A cant cover instantly considering bee and onoki shunshin feats of crossing mountain ranges in 1 panel. 

So even with distance sasori finger movements are slower than A moving from point A to B

why do i say so? Sakura could read them yet couldnt see pre hebi sasuke shunshin. which is  compared to even R1 A speed. R2 would be closing the gap long before sasori can pull his puppet to do anything. 



> It takes little to no time to pull out a scroll and activate the summoning. There no seals, no nothing


. 

this is true. However sasori forms a seal to release iron sand. then must perform 2 different movements just for the puppet to actual perform a jutus with the iron sand. I had previously posted links. Will repost if you are interrested. 



> Perhaps you forgot what's being discussed here, it's not a straightforward Satetsu Shigure technique I'm saying would hit Ei, i'm saying he can manipulate the smallest amounts of Satetsu, so if at any point any Satetsu is outside Ei's LOS, Sasori can manipulate it to hit Ei from behind. And Ei can't keep track off every single little amount of Iron sand that can form a bullet, when Sasori can control as much [and almost certainly more], than he showed with Kaihou.



this is true and a good tactic. however Raiton chakra mode is a better defense than chiyo chakra shield. According to the databook you translated. what evidence is there that tiny satetsu bullets would breach his defense. When satetsu spikes sped up by the sandaime chakra failed to even put a scratch on a chakra shield



> Bijuu amounts are pumped into the shroud. Unless you think the shroud maintains itself perpetually, that's the amount Ei needs to keep pumping out to keep his shroud in the amped R2-Stat.



A has bijuu levels of chakra. A bijuu strongest technique is bijuudama, which again has bijuu level amounts of chakra in it. Yet bijuu can spam their technique 

Why wont A be able to spam his when he got comparable chakra levels?



> Because that's Sasori's entire stick, that he only needs a scratch to take you down. And why would attacks meant to scratch not do anything? It's still massive Iron-Sand spikes being send flying down at you, so whether it only grazes ones body or not, it's still packing enough force to scratch someone.



you really cant prove satetsu can harm A though



> But I digress, because I don't think Ei will necessarily be hit by initial burst of a Kaihou on the scale that Sasori used it against Sakura. However the issue I see is if EI gets stuck inside the pikes he has nowhere to go and that effectively seals his movements. And the fact that Sasori said he only used a bit of his chakra on the Kaihou against Sakura, greatly implies he can create a larger one with more chakra, but even if you want to say he can't, than it means he can certainly spam Kaihou over and over again, as it only takes a bit of chakra, and I don't think Ei can consistently escape it's entire AOE over and over again.



kaihou would certainly be sasori best tactic. however if he doesnt use it off the bat .would be alot harder to pull off. because A would have already gotten to him and broken him apart once. 

thus revealing the heart cannister. granted A wont know to hit it at first but he might even target it by mistake with attacks such as larait which target the entire chest area



> How is it undeterminable. We've seen Sasori use ambush strategies before and we know this strategy would work. The only question is whether Sasori would be smart enough to do so, but Sasori is an incredibly intelligent and experience Ninja, so I think the fair thing would be to give him some benefit of the doubt. Can we say he'd win with it every time, no, but it's good enough that it gives him a decent chance of winning, even in the extremely unfavorable conditions your presenting.



the only ambush which has a sure proof way of workign is poison gas. satetsu spikes sped up failed to breach a chakra shield 



> Can he take a fight of attrition w/o getting scratched, most certainly. However can he do so against Sasori is the matter of contention here. Sasori's Satetsu is hyped as the Jutsu of the strongest-Kazekage, by a mile and Sungakuru's most feared weapon ever, 100 Puppets is hyped to solo an entire country, and Sasori general skills even less Satetsu and Kazekage are hyped to have defeated the strongest Kazekage.  If Ei could go an entire attrition battle against someone with abilities portrayed to be on such a high "level", who does not have some serious stamina deficiency and is in-fact quite a stamina monster himself, than Ei is quite godly. Yet his actual performance in the manga have him drawing with Beginner-MS-Sasuke, being outperformed by Base-B twice, simply being used as hype tool for Minato and Naruto, and being much less effective in the Madara battle, than Onoki and Tsunade.



but you cant prove satetsu can harm A though. nothing implies it can

but turrin beginner level sasuke can 1 shot sasori with amaterasu though. if he gets a chest shot at the puppet body. sasori dies. There isnt much sasori can do about it. 

note beginner MS sauce had obito thinking he could keep 5 kage hostage. So beginner Ms sauce isnt to be triffled with 

All the people you mentioned in your last post outperform sasori though. Onoki lives in sasori nightmares


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Onoki has a mountain crossing shunshin feat, where, just wondering.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Onoki has a mountain crossing shunshin feat, where, just wondering.



here glad i could answer you

note onoki position before the attack 

proof that his Raiton Armour turns off 

look at where he gets to 

proof that his Raiton Armour turns off 

you mean to tell me thats a short distance not remotely comparable to what Bee did?

even if u want to claim it isnt the fact that a slow by compairson ninja like onoki can pull that off imagine the distance A can cover. 

i like that you didnt dispute the killerbee feat though 

so imagine a much slower ninja than A can cross those distances. Imagine what A can do 

you must remember that even killer bee admitted to being unable to *react* to minato shunshin. this is react not dodge or block but *react *

the only thing comparable to that is A shunshin. Doubt sasori is making any complicated puppet movements before A closes in for the first time. 

not like it would kill him. But it could very well be a lariat which would kill sasori. the heart container would be hit 

its a jutsu which blows out the chest area


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2015)

I'd say Sasori is mid tier Akatsuki, but despite the hype I don't think he is stronger than Deidara(not talking about a match up).

Sasori's problem is that he was the first Akatsuki to go down, so he was defeated pretty early on @ the beginning of part 2, when the power levels weren't that far apart from Part 1 portion of the manga. So his display wasn't so impressive by part 2 standarts.
And since he isn't a plot relevant character(who also doesn't have a big fanbase) Kishimoto decided to shit on him to hype a bunch of fodder during the war arc. Which even made his reputation of losing to Sakura get even worse. 
Dude got defeated by TNJ and emotions twice.

I think he was a pretty cool character, and I wish he was left alive till mid 300's at least. Then I'm pretty sure he'd be viewed as a Oro tier Shinobi by the majority, as he was supposed to be.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say Sasori is mid tier Akatsuki, but despite the hype I don't think he is stronger than Deidara(not talking about a match up).
> 
> Sasori's problem is that he was the first Akatsuki to go down, so he was defeated pretty early on @ the beginning of part 2, when the power levels weren't that far apart from Part 1 portion of the manga. So his display wasn't so impressive by part 2 standarts.
> And since he isn't a plot relevant character(who also doesn't have a big fanbase) Kishimoto decided to shit on him to hype a bunch of fodder during the war arc. Which even made his reputation of losing to Sakura get even worse.
> ...



in a situation where you arent being silly i can argue with you. 


not talking match up basis here neither 

but C1-C4 could you tell me why you would consider that more dangerous than 

3rd kazekage puppet, sasori puppet body and 100 puppets. 

do analyze and compare the jutsu. i want your thoughts on this. wanna see what you come up with. 

again not talking match up basis. just jutsu comparison. and how the naruto verse would handle them 

i see sasori as the bigger threat though. granted deidara is much better suited at dealing with close range opponents as well as leveling a battle field


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> in a situation where you arent being silly i can argue with you.
> 
> 
> not talking match up basis here neither
> ...


Again,  you have to stop with the personal insulsts. Are you12 or something ? 

C4 is harder to avoid than anything Sasori has in his arsenal. And C3 has more firepower than anything Sasori has in his arsenal.
While Sasori has traps and all, Deidara's small guided bombs can be just as tricky, along with his mines and bunshin bomb feints.
And he has much greater mobility with his various birds.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again,  you have to stop with the personal insulsts. Are you12 or something ?
> 
> C4 is harder to avoid than anything Sasori has in his arsenal. And C3 has more firepower than anything Sasori has in his arsenal.
> While Sasori has traps and all, Deidara's small guided bombs can be just as tricky, along with his mines and bunshin bomb feints.
> And he has much greater mobility with his various birds.



when did i insult you? 

saying you are being silly isnt an insult. anywayz moving on. i did apoligise i did know you were sensitive and i hurt your feelings so sorry 

yes C4 is harder to avoid than anything sasori could ever have. 

Not to sensors though and dojutsu users. even lower level dojutsu users stand more of a chance of evading it than hiruko projectiles 

C3 firepower is more AoE than anything though. it hasnt been tested against any defense and breached it

sasori mines need to be placed there though. it doesnt seem like something he can do himself 

yes his mobility is on point. 

but think about the 1 scratch win rule. alot easier to pull that off than landing actual bombs.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when did i insult you?
> 
> saying you are being silly isnt an insult. anywayz moving on. i did apoligise i did know you were sensitive and i hurt your feelings so sorry



Being annoyed doesn't have anything to do with being sensitive. You can annoy anyone by bein annoying. I am not going all out and calling you various things am I ? Becaue I believe there has to be a certain standart between people's behaviour here. If everyone starts insulting each other, then you can't have one decent debate.

But seeing you freely posting shit here, I guess mods don't care.

And you don't have to worry about my feelings anymore because you'r going to the ignore list. So you can post whatever you like


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Being annoyed doesn't have anything to do with being sensitive. You can annoy anyone by bein annoying. I am not going all out and calling you various things am I ? Becaue I believe there has to be a certain standart between people's behaviour here. If everyone starts insulting each other, then you can't have one decent debate.
> 
> But seeing you freely posting shit here, I guess mods don't care.
> 
> And you don't have to worry about my feelings anymore because you'r going to the ignore list. So you can post whatever you like



so sensitive then. and in denial. i get you buddy. you are  raaaaah!!!! scream out loud. 

i havent called you anything. i said you are being silly. i didnt say you are an idiot or anything of the sort. no name calling here. so like i said if u werent being sensitiive you would know htat

i havent insulted you once. 

lol you are crying again. i said sorry though. what else do you want me to do?

i do have to worry about them. you sound hurt.


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## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sasori escapes Hiroku as black amorphous blob. Ei is not going to know what that is, and the smart thing to do would be to wait and see what it is before charging it down, incase it's a trap. Unfortunately that gives Sasori the chances to distance himself from Ei, while simultaneously pulling out the Kazekage-Puppet.



He's wearing a cloak, but unless A _doesn't know whom he's fighting at all_, then I don't see him standing around waiting. Puppet Masters tend to have a close quarters weakness. Even a Gennin like Shino knew that much..



> It takes little to no time to pull out a scroll and activate the summoning. There no seals, no nothing.



Yes, but if A pops up in Sasori's face ? whether he's holding the scroll or has just summoned the Kazekage ? Sasori's still screwed either way.



> Perhaps you forgot what's being discussed here, it's not a straightforward Satetsu Shigure technique I'm saying would hit Ei, i'm saying he can manipulate the smallest amounts of Satetsu, so if at any point any Satetsu is outside Ei's LOS, Sasori can manipulate it to hit Ei from behind. And Ei can't keep track off every single little amount of Iron sand that can form a bullet, when Sasori can control as much [and almost certainly more], than he showed with Kaihou.



Let me get this straight: Sasori is attacking A with other, larger Iron Sand techniques, but he'll break off a small piece, manuver it behind A, and throw it at the back of his neck?

One, where has Sasori demonstrated that kind of control?

Two, why wouldn't the bullet just bouce off A's shroud like Sasuke's lighting sword?




> Bijuu amounts are pumped into the shroud.



What does that mean? 

Do you think a Biju's worth of chakra is expended for every second A's in v2 or something?



> But I digress, because I don't think Ei will necessarily be hit by initial burst of a Kaihou on the scale that Sasori used it against Sakura. However the issue I see is if EI gets stuck inside the pikes he has nowhere to go and that effectively seals his movements.



A Body Flickers out of the AoE. Sunshin can be used to cross large distances (ie. Killer B against Taka, Minato against Kurama, etc.), and A has one of the best flickers in the manga, along with a bunch of chakra to abuse it.



> How is it undeterminable. We've seen Sasori use ambush strategies before and we know this strategy would work.



Where, against what level ninja?



> Can he take a fight of attrition w/o getting scratched, most certainly. However can he do so against Sasori is the matter of contention here. Sasori's Satetsu is hyped as the Jutsu of the strongest-Kazekage, by a mile and Sungakuru's most feared weapon ever, 100 Puppets is hyped to solo an entire country, and Sasori general skills even less Satetsu and Kazekage are hyped to have defeated the strongest Kazekage.  If Ei could go an entire attrition battle against someone with abilities portrayed to be on such a high "level", who does not have some serious stamina deficiency and is in-fact quite a stamina monster himself, than Ei is quite godly.



Who has the portrayal to do it then? Even ignoring the attrition part, who has the portrayal to take out somebody on Sasori's level without being touched? Almost every time we watch higher tiered guys go at it, there's never a complete fight without both parties being knicked up.

Does Minato have that portrayal? Itachi? Nagato? Tell me who you believe has the portrayal to win a limited knowledge fight against a high-mid tier like Sasori without being pricked _once._

Hell, _Top Tiers_ like Hashirama or Edo Madara could get caught while jobbing and lose to Sasori before they actually try. Even EoS Naruto could get scratched if he's not fully informed about poison. He wouldn't know he'd need Senjutsu or Biju forms until it was too late. 

Do you think Sasori without knowledge is just too good for most of the manga?


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

i just need to know why people assume featless satetsu can breach RCM


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2015)

I don't think Itachi or Minato or Nagato could get touched by Sasori. Minato & Itachi's overall speed and evasive abilities should be able to deal with most of Sasori's arsenal. Add in Hirashin & Flash Susano'o activation, there is no way they'r getting scratched. Nagato can just spam ST and simply wipe Sasori off the map along with his puppet army.

It is also very likely that highly intellectual guys will probably have some sort of knowledge about poison. That'd include Itachi and Nagato. Maybe Minato as well.

Poison in general is  a bit overrated imo. Most of Sasori's attacks are pretty straight foward. I mean you'd instinctively dodge them. Its not as suble as say finger or sharingan genjutsu or teleportation, which are impossible to avoid without any kind of forewarning or prior knowledge.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He's wearing a cloak, but unless A _doesn't know whom he's fighting at all_, then I don't see him standing around waiting. Puppet Masters tend to have a close quarters weakness. Even a Gennin like Shino knew that much..


Yes there was a black cloak wrapped totally around Sasori's body, so all it looked like was black-blob.  Knowing about puppet users, should make Ei more cautious about dashing towards an unknown object, as he would know how puppet users specialize in traps. So your expecting Ei to put himself in a potentially dangerous situation for no reason at all. Why would he do that? Ei is not the brightest person in the verse, but this seems extremely silly to me. 



> Yes, but if A pops up in Sasori's face – whether he's holding the scroll or has just summoned the Kazekage – Sasori's still screwed either way.


Well he's getting smashed, but that's not really screwed for Sasori. My point tho was more about the fact that he can pull out the Kazekage very quickly, as he exits Hiroku



> Let me get this straight: Sasori is attacking A with other, larger Iron Sand techniques, but he'll break off a small piece, manuver it behind A, and throw it at the back of his neck?
> 
> One, where has Sasori demonstrated that kind of control?


Or he's just attacking him with a single portion of Satetsu behind Ei. As for where he's demonstrated the ability to control multiple portions of Iron sand at once. Here he controls hundreds of different portions of Satetsu at once:
_forced_

He does it again here:
_forced_
_forced_

He does it again when he controls two Kessho shapes at once:
_forced_

And does it again when setting up Kaihou:
_forced_

We've also seen both Gaara and the Rasa do so with their sand/dust as well. Gaara even way back in the CE could.



> Two, why wouldn't the bullet just bouce off A's shroud like Sasuke's lighting sword?


Sasuke's Raiton-Flow is comparable to a hardened bullet? The better question is where does Ei's shroud have the feats that suggest it can tank bullet w/o a scratch. And it's not like Sasori can't shape Satetsu into other objects, like the spikes he used against Chiyo and Sakura, if that isn't enough.



> What does that mean?
> 
> Do you think a Biju's worth of chakra is expended for every second A's in v2 or something?


Karin says

"Raikage's charka is growing to be unreasonably gargantuan"
"It's Bijuu "level"

So while I don't think every second he is in R2 he is consuming a Bijuu's worth of chakra, he needs a Bijuu's worth to sustain it for a certain period of time. 



> A Body Flickers out of the AoE. Sunshin can be used to cross large distances (ie. Killer B against Taka, Minato against Kurama, etc.), and A has one of the best flickers in the manga, along with a bunch of chakra to abuse it.


And he uses a large amount of chakra to do so, while Sasori is only using a little bit. Probably Ei looses the attrition contest if he's forced to keep spamming a Shunshin like that.



> Where, against what level ninja?


Against Sakura and Chiyo. And the level of ninja is meaningless when they have no way to predict the attack. Which is one of Ei's problems, he lacks any real utility techniques.



> Who has the portrayal to do it then? Even ignoring the attrition part, who has the portrayal to take out somebody on Sasori's level without being touched? Almost every time we watch higher tiered guys go at it, there's never a complete fight without both parties being knicked up


The truth is if a character isn't specifically a bad match up, than in a no or limited knowledge scenario there aren't many who can do so, short of Nagato "level" and above. 

Most of the match ups Sasori looses are going to be full-knowledge matches, or against characters that have the Jutsu that can break through Satetsu defenses or circumvent them, before being scratched; or a combo off both. Ei would win for instances, if he had full knowledge and the match started at short, possibly Mid, depending on the definition of Mid.

And no I can't ignore the attrition part, because that's the part i'm speaking towards, I.E. I don't see Ei having the portrayal to fight Sasori for some uber long attrition match w/o ever being poisoned. 



> Does Minato have that portrayal?


Minato comes closer than Ei, for sure, but I doubt even he is winning through attrition. If he wins it will be due to having the necessary abilities to take Sasori out in the short to mid term. In this way he's more equipped than Ei. Not only is he faster than Ei, but he can possibly warp Satetsu away. He's also got the sensing an intelligence necessary to figure out the heart-container is Sasori's true body, so his chances of being ambush or hit by an attack outside his LOS are smaller. His Hiraishin and Hiraishin Barrier also offer a better and more efficient defense than Ei's chakra consuming large Shunshin. And he has Shiki Fuujin as a triumph card, if things go south. 



> Itachi?


Same deal as Minato, he comes closer than Ei, for sure, but I doubt even he is winning through attrition. If he wins it will be due to having the necessary abilities to take Sasori out in the short to mid term.



> Nagato?


Yeah I'd say Nagato does, considering he defeated entire villages and SM-Naruto w/ just Pain-Rikudo.



> Tell me who you believe has the portrayal to win a limited knowledge fight against a high-mid tier like Sasori without being pricked once.



Well it depends, if it's at the point where Sasori's enemy is trying to win through attrition and no poor match up than only Nagato-Class Fighters can do it consistently. If it's just who can possibly beat Sasori, bad match-up excluded, it's every Mid-Kage and Above, including Ei, it would just depend on conditions of the match and how that effects Sasori's and that character's IC actions, though Sasori has better odds to win than most Mid-Kage, as he's towards the upper wrung of Mid-Kage.  As far as w/ limited knowledge goes, well than were talking about a specific condition and once were talking a condition, we need to talk more about each characters fighting style and the other conditions of the match than portrayal, and as I said it would be those with attacks strong enough to get through Sasori's defenses or circumvent them.



> Hell, Top Tiers like Hashirama or Edo Madara could get caught while jobbing and lose to Sasori before they actually try. Even EoS Naruto could get scratched if he's not fully informed about poison. He wouldn't know he'd need Senjutsu or Biju forms until it was too late.


Once again no part of my analysis has Ei jobbing, he is simply acting logically in response to not having much knowledge of Sasori's capabilities. As far as these examples go, if you look at what i've been saying, at no point do I have Ei loosing right at the start of the match, I have him loosing Mid to Late match. Mid-Late Match Naruto, Madara, and Hashirama stomp Sasori, because their mid-late match shit is eons above Ei. 

As far as Naruto lossing in Base goes, that's actually a jobbing it argument, unlike with Ei, where I fully supported the idea that he goes RCM at the start of the match. Naruto went KCM against fodder, so I see him at least doing that against Sasori, and Full-Nine-Tails KCM Naruto is eons above where he needs to be to survive Hiroku, and as the match drags on he pulls out higher shit and obliterates Sasori, because again he is eons above Ei.



> Do you think Sasori without knowledge is just too good for most of the manga?


Most of the Manga sure, fuck just Hiroku alone is too good for most of the manga, because most of the ninja in the manga are fodder or Chunin-Jonin named characters. 

But to your point, I think the man who defeated the strongest Kazekage and became even strong is around upper-top Mid-Kage [or High-Kage] and his style is specifically more dangerous with no or limited knowledge, so he's good enough where most Mid-Kages are loosing to him more often than not, unless it's a bad type match up or they are one of thee strongest ones


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## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

Turrin

just curious, but what makes you overrate the 3rd Kazekage to heavens? 
You still put Hashirama over Hiruzen, even tho the manga stated that Hiruzen was the strongest before Narudo.
(and don't tell me Hashirama's hype, he was never called the strongest Hokage, not even once)


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Turrin
> 
> just curious, but what makes you overrate the 3rd Kazekage to heavens?


I place Sandaime-Kazekage around the middle to lower end of Mid-Kage. I do not think that is overrating a character who towers over 4 other Kages in strength. On the contrary someone placing him bellow that is underrating him. 



> You still put Hashirama over Hiruzen, even tho the manga stated that Hiruzen was the strongest before Narudo.
> (and don't tell me Hashirama's hype, he was never called the strongest Hokage, not even once)


In Hiruzen's case there is a huge amount of evidence suggesting his position as the strongest Hokage was retecon'd. We do not get that with Sandaime-Kazekage. If Kishi gave Shodai-Kazekage the same plot importance, portrayal, and insane feats gap between him and Sandaime-Kazekage that there is between Hashirama and Hiruzen, while offering no compelling reason why Sandaime-Kazekage is actually stronger than Shodai, than I'd also disregard the hype, but there is nothing like that. So basically I take statements seriously, unless their is a mountain of evidence against them. And even than I still have doubts, as i've expressed before, even in the Hashirama vs Hiruzen debate I take the Hiruzen's statement seriously enough that even with that mountain of evidence against them, I still am only 99% sure Hashirama was the strongest, and maintain that 1% doubt, which I venture if I polled Naruto-fan as to what the possibility of Prime-Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage is and listed 1% as a option, the vast majority would still put 0%, so I feel I'm being extremely fair to those statements, while at the same time reconciling that with the absurd good logical argument for why a retecon occurred.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

> =Turrin;53536257]I place Sandaime-Kazekage around the middle to lower end of Mid-Kage. I do not think that is overrating a character who towers over 4 other Kages in strength. On the contrary someone placing him bellow that is underrating him.


What do you know about this Kage? Or the other 4 (3 actually, but whatever) that he's stronger than them? 
How do you base your judgement on them compare to Kages of other villages and taking the gap in power, and population between the villages in consideration? 

Edit:







population: Konoha has more than twice of the population that Suna has. Surely, being the best out of 500 for example, is better than being the best of 200.
ESPECIALLY, when those 500 are of a better quality as Konoha's military power is more powerful than Suna. And as such with the other villages.

So, how do YOU base your judgement that if you're the best in the weakest village, then you're better than those of a stronger ones? 



> In Hiruzen's case there is a huge amount of evidence suggesting his position as the strongest Hokage was retecon'd. We do not get that with Sandaime-Kazekage. If Kishi gave Shodai-Kazekage the same plot importance, portrayal, and insane feats gap between him and Sandaime-Kazekage that there is between Hashirama and Hiruzen, while offering no compelling reason why Sandaime-Kazekage is actually stronger than Shodai, than I'd also disregard the hype, but there is nothing like that. So basically I take statements seriously, unless their is a mountain of evidence against them. And even than I still have doubts, as i've expressed before, even in the Hashirama vs Hiruzen debate I take the Hiruzen's statement seriously enough that even with that mountain of evidence against them, I still am only 99% sure Hashirama was the strongest, and maintain that 1% doubt, which I venture if I polled Naruto-fan as to what the possibility of Prime-Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage is and listed 1% as a option, the vast majority would still put 0%, so I feel I'm being extremely fair to those statements, while at the same time reconciling that with the absurd good logical argument for why a retecon occurred.



- What does plot importance have anything to do with anything? Dai was shown for 1 chapter, and he is stronger than 99% of the characters in the manga due to him having all 8gates. Kin & Gin were shown for 2 or 3 chapters, and yet they are more powerful than Tobirama, and so on. Surely enough, Hashirama is also more important than whoever the fodder who killed him was... 

- As for feats, how do you determine that in this case when we have never seen the first 2 Kazekages?
Even the 4th one had barely several pages. The 3rd Kazekage himself did not show anything besides being an improved puppet. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is also very likely that highly intellectual guys will probably have some sort of knowledge about poison.* That'd include Itachi and Nagato. Maybe Minato as well.*
> .


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What do you know about this Kage? t


What knowledgable characters have told us about him. Satetsu was the strongest weapon in Sungakuru's history and he towered above the other Kazekage in strength.



> Or the other 4 (3 actually, but whatever) that he's stronger than them?


SPII-Gaara, Rasa, Nindaime, Shodai = 4, no?

I know that Rasa is around top of Low-Kage, and someone who towers above him should at least be around the lower end of Mid-Kage. Accounting for the possibility that Shodai or Nindaime are stronger than Rasa, as there are no statements that place Rasa above them, than he could be around the middle of Mid-Kage. So that creates a logical range for his placement somewhere between the lower end and middle of Mid-Kage. Which I think is a perfectly fair and reasonable range.



> How do you base your judgement on them compare to Kages of other villages and taking the gap in power, and population between the villages in consideration?


The range I explained for Sandaime-Kazekage does indeed account for the differences in villages. The strongest Hokae we've seen is eons above Middle/Low Mid-Kage, and pretty much all the Hokages are above this range, with the exception of Tsunade [w/o 2.5 Years Byakugo] and Old-Hiruzen, so basically both not being at their best. The strongest Raikage and Tsuchikage we've seen are also Upper-Mid-Kage [or High-Kage] so they are above this. 

That leaves Mu, Troll, Ei, and Mei, as the only none Kazekage that aren't above decisively above where I place Sandaime-Kazekage, but an argument can certainly be made for Mu and Troll being Upper-Mid [or High-Kage] as well, I'm not sure if I agree with that or not though, considering DBIV trolling their abilities to a certain extent, but there it is. That really only leaves Ei and Mei, as being pretty likely to be around Sandaime in strength, give or take a bit [maybe more than a bit in Mei's case, as some think she is Low-Kage].



> So, how do YOU based your judgement that if you're the best in the weakest village, then you're better than those of a stronger ones?


I think your hyped to be stronger than 4 Kages by a large margin your likely to be stronger than some of the Kages from other more powerful villages. 

I also do not think total Military Might is a smooth expression of Kage Strength. Gaara > Mei, despite Sunagakuru's military might being ranked lower than Kiri. In-fact an argument can easily be made for Gaara >= Ei, despite Sungakuru's military might being 2-Ranks lower than Kumogakuru's. Danzo, acting Hokage, was stronger than any of them, and Konohagakuru's military might is bellow Kumogakru's and Iwagakuru's. Onoki was stronger than Ei, yet Kumogakuru and Iwagakuru receive the same military might stat.

Basically If we rank Kages based on military might, we end up with

1) Ei = Onoki
2) Danzo
3) Mei
4) Gaara

Something I seriously doubt anyone agrees with. And quite frankly I don't think Konohagakuru's military might even makes sense, when looking at how individual shinobi from Konoha stack up to individual shinobi from Kumo or Iwa. Konoha had 1 God-Tier in Gai, 1 High-Kage if not God-Tier depending on how your rate Kotomatsukami, at least another High-Kage in Post-Senjutsu Training Naruto, and at least a Middle/Low Mid-Kage in Kakashi depending on his Kamui mastery at the time. Meanwhile Kumo's got 1 Middle/Low Mid-Kage [Ei] and 1 Low-Kage [Darui], and Iwagakuru's got one High-Kage and Kitsuchi who if even the most stupidly biased interpretation of his strength couldn't possible place him beyond High-Kage, which again stress seems absolutely dumb as hell to begin with.

So the premise is flawed to start with.



> What does plot importance have anything to do with anything? Dai was shown for 1 chapter, and he is stronger than 99% of the characters in the manga due to him having all 8gates. Kin & Gin were shown for 2 or 3 chapters, and yet they are more powerful than Tobirama, and so on. Surely enough, Hashirama is also more important than whoever the fodder who killed him was...


When the point is considered individually is it relevant no, but as part off a collective I can say that I can see why for story reasons Kishi would have decided to retcon, Hashirama into being the strongest Hokage.



> As for feats, how do you determine that in this case when we have never seen the first 2 Kazekages?
> Even the 4th one had barely several pages. The 3rd Kazekage himself did not shown anything besides being an improved puppet.


That's my whole point. None of the other Kazekage, have shown such absurdly off the chart feats that would make it unrealistic for Sandaime-Kazekage to be stronger than them. Hence nothing has been shown that contradicts the statements made about Sandaime. I mean can you point to anything that remotely contradicts Sandaime-Kazekage being the strongest Kazekage, to the same degree as is the case with Hashirama and Hiruzen?


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## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yes there was a black cloak wrapped totally around Sasori's body, so all it looked like was black-blob.  Knowing about puppet users, should make Ei more cautious about dashing towards an unknown object, as he would know how puppet users specialize in traps. So your expecting Ei to put himself in a potentially dangerous situation for no reason at all. Why would he do that? Ei is not the brightest person in the verse, but this seems extremely silly to me.



A doesn't have to worry about much because of his durability and speed, and why exactly wouldn't a just assume the cloaked figure is Sasori's real body like Sakura did? 

Honestly, just look at his behavior against Minato. A had no idea why Minato had just scattered Kunai all over the battlefield, but gave no fucks and charged right in anyway.



> Well he's getting smashed, but that's not really screwed for Sasori. My point tho was more about the fact that he can pull out the Kazekage very quickly, as he exits Hiroku



Exactly, he's getting smashed. He'll reform, but he isn't escaping close quarters from Raikage of all people. It would only be a matter of time before A either crushed him into pieces so small he couldn't reform or got to his heart. 



> Or he's just attacking him with a single portion of Satetsu behind Ei. As for where he's demonstrated the ability to control multiple portions of Iron sand at once. Here he controls hundreds of different portions of Satetsu at once:
> 
> We've also seen both Gaara and the Rasa do so with their sand/dust as well. Gaara even way back in the CE could.



I'm not really following. 

Gaara had a derset's worth of snad to fling around at Deidara, but even he couldn't break off a random bullet and send it at Deidara from a blind spot. He only was able to get to Deidara's arm once.

Sasori has nowhere near the amount of sand Gaara had, and A is much, _much_ faster than Deidara.



> Sasuke's Raiton-Flow is comparable to a hardened bullet? The better question is where does Ei's shroud have the feats that suggest it can tank bullet w/o a scratch.



Iron Sand Drizzle is featless, except for failing to get to Sakura & Chiyo through Chiyo's shield. It doesn't have anything to put it above Sasuke's Chidorigatana or on par with Sasuke's Chidori. Chidori is a technique that has "pierce anything" hype, but there's nothing like that said about Drizzle.



> Karin says
> 
> "Raikage's charka is growing to be unreasonably gargantuan"
> "It's Bijuu "level"
> ...



He rose his chakra to tailed beast levels when preparing to combat the Mangekyou with Shunshin. All that means is that he's got a Biju-sized body of chakra buitl up to draw from when he goes to spam Shunshin.

What's actually expended on the cloak itself was never commented on, nor was how much chakra each individual shunshin uses.



> And he uses a large amount of chakra to do so, while Sasori is only using a little bit. Probably Ei looses the attrition contest if he's forced to keep spamming a Shunshin like that.



Where does it say that using Shunshin takes a substantial amount of chakra?



> And the level of ninja is meaningless when they have no way to predict the attack. Which is one of Ei's problems, he lacks any real utility techniques.



Did Minato have any way to predict Obito's attempted ambush?



> And no I can't ignore the attrition part, because that's the part i'm speaking towards, I.E. I don't see Ei having the portrayal to fight Sasori for some uber long attrition match w/o ever being poisoned.



I'm asking you a separate question though.

I know the attrition part was important, but let's take a step back. Who has the portrayal to simply win _in genera_l against somebody on Sasori's level without taking _a single scratch?_ 

When looking back through the manga, very rarely is there a conclusive fight where one character trumps another while taking no damage whatsoever. Even in cases where the strength difference was pretty substantial.

Edo Madara vs. The Five Kage is a prime example.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

> =Turrin;53536753]What knowledgable characters have told us about him. Satetsu was the strongest weapon in Sungakuru's history and he towered above the other Kazekage in strength.



How is that saying much when pretty much all of what Suna has is either that or puppets (which are at a disadvantage), and some wind attacks? 



> SPII-Gaara, Rasa, Nindaime, Shodai = 4, no?
> 
> I know that Rasa is around top of Low-Kage, and someone who towers above him should at least be around the lower end of Mid-Kage. Accounting for the possibility that Shodai or Nindaime are stronger than Rasa, as there are no statements that place Rasa above them, than he could be around the middle of Mid-Kage. So that creates a logical range for his placement somewhere between the lower end and middle of Mid-Kage. Which I think is a perfectly fair and reasonable range.



Because there is no proof that he is still stronger than Gaara. Yes, he was stronger at the time of that statement, but then we have proofs that Gaara became more powerful, and we have seen him defeating his father easily. So, yeah, nothing suggest he is stronger than him at this point. 

The second Kazekage is a puppet user as proven in the Databook, so he's already as a disadvantage to both the 4th and 3rd Kazekage because of the Magnet Release. We know for a fact that the highest level of puppet user Suna was able to accomplish (before Sasori) was 10 puppets at the same time. So, for all we know, the second Kazekage would probably be even weaker than Chiyo. 



> The range I explained for Sandaime-Kazekage does indeed account for the differences in villages. The strongest Hokae we've seen is eons above Middle/Low Mid-Kage, and pretty much all the Hokages are above this range, with the exception of Tsunade [w/o 2.5 Years Byakugo] and Old-Hiruzen, so basically both not being at their best. The strongest Raikage and Tsuchikage we've seen are also Upper-Mid-Kage [or High-Kage] so they are above this.
> 
> That leaves Mu, Troll, Ei, and Mei, as the only none Kazekage that aren't above decisively above where I place Sandaime-Kazekage, but an argument can certainly be made for Mu and Troll being Upper-Mid [or High-Kage] as well, I'm not sure if I agree with that or not though, considering DBIV trolling their abilities to a certain extent, but there it is. That really only leaves Ei and Mei, as being pretty likely to be around Sandaime in strength, give or take a bit [maybe more than a bit in Mei's case, as some think she is Low-Kage].



I honestly place Troll-Kage, and A as superior to Tobirama who you placed highly. But yeah, I see them on Ubber-mid Kage. 

Either way, I honestly think that you're putting way too much emphasis on the Kazekage's hype dispute we have barely seen anything from him, and how easily anyone can crush his puppet with a direct hit. 



> I think your hyped to be stronger than 4 Kages by a large margin your likely to be stronger than some of the Kages from other more powerful villages


. 

*take not that was the first arc Gaara, not the same level he was at the 4th War.
I saw that scan that one of the posters put for being stronger than the others by far (who were not impressive to begin with). I wanted to see Viz translation, but I don't have my volumes any more.  


> I also do not think total Military Might is a smooth expression of Kage Strength. Gaara > Mei, despite Sunagakuru's military might being ranked lower than Kiri. In-fact an argument can easily be made for Gaara >= Ei, despite Sungakuru's military might being 2-Ranks lower than Kumogakuru's. Danzo, acting Hokage, was stronger than any of them, and Konohagakuru's military might is bellow Kumogakru's and Iwagakuru's. Onoki was stronger than Ei, yet Kumogakuru and Iwagakuru receive the same military might stat.



Yes, it's for the village as a whole. As for Gaara and Mei, that's honestly debatable as her water jutsu
can easily defeat his sand, and she is supposedly have a lightning release as well. 



> Basically If we rank Kages based on military might, we end up with
> 
> 1) Ei = Onoki
> 2) Danzo
> ...



You forgot B in Kumo. 
Also, it's not like if  Gai would use all the gates at all time, it's only once in a life-time. 

Also, we have seen Konoha's members much more than the other villages characters. So, judging them based on that only wouldn't probably make much sense. 




> When the point is considered individually is it relevant no, but as part off a collective I can say that I can see why for story reasons Kishi would have decided to retcon, Hashirama into being the strongest Hokage.



"Story reasons" wouldn't take us anywhere. It was only because of a story reason or a theme, that Lee got to fodderstomps Madara with ease. It's only because of the sake of T7 why Sakura effected Kaguya, when Sasuke's PS couldn't. And so on, as many things comes off as being forced. 



> That's my whole point. None of the other Kazekage, have shown such absurdly off the chart feats that would make it unrealistic for Sandaime-Kazekage to be stronger than them. Hence nothing has been shown that contradicts the statements made about Sandaime. I mean can you point to anything that remotely contradicts Sandaime-Kazekage being the strongest Kazekage, to the same degree as is the case with Hashirama and Hiruzen?



It's not about being stronger than them. Rather, it's about basing Sasori/the 3rd power compared to known characters, based on his superioiry to another completely unknown characters. I just can't see how that fits. 

It's like saying 
"the 7swords-men are stronger than JJ SM Madara because they were alive after fighting 8th Gate user, when on the other hand madara got his ass handled to him" 

and of course since the 7 swordsmen we have seen in the war are stronger than the previous generation, do you agree that they are a bigger threat than JJ SM Madara?  

it simply does not work.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A doesn't have to worry about much because of his durability and speed,


Do I think Ei might be arrogant enough to just throw caution to the win and just hulk-smash a totally unknown target, sure I do. But If were talking about Ei from that perspective he's clearly arrogant enough to also stand around and do nothing allowing Sasori to cake walk he way into summoning the Kazekage and Satetsu. So ether we are assuming Ei is approaching this fighting cautiously and pragmatically, or were assuming he acts arrogantly. You can't have it both ways where out of one corner of your mouth your arguing Ei is super on guard here to the point of being extremely agressive in his blitz attempts to not give Sasori any space and immediately going R2 in response to Satetsu, while at the same time arguing out of the other corner of your mouth that Ei will arrogantly throw caution to the wind, because hey he's pretty durable and can tank a-lot of stuff, so no need to worry about an unknown threat. It's simply not a fair way to do business, so to speak.

So if it's the former and Ei throws caution to the wind, maybe he'd get Sasori, or maybe he'd just stand there. If it's the latter and he's cautious he should avoid attacking an unknown, because despite his durability, there are still many techniques that could get him; and i'll list them if you really want to waste my time to that degree, but please don't.



> and why exactly wouldn't a just assume the cloaked figure is Sasori's real body like Sakura did?


Because he doesn't have Chiyo to directly tell him that Sasori hides his really body in Hiroku. And even than Sakura was not sure, she merely posited a question, is that his real body? And that was long after Sasori escaped Hiroku:
Link removed



> Exactly, he's getting smashed. He'll reform, but he isn't escaping close quarters from Raikage of all people. It would only be a matter of time before A either crushed him into pieces so small he couldn't reform or got to his heart.


I really don't see why he would get up again to let Ei just smash him, if that was the case. It's far more logical that he'd play dead, until Ei dropped his guard.



> Gaara had a derset's worth of snad to fling around at Deidara, but even he couldn't break off a random bullet and send it at Deidara from a blind spot.


Umm, what? Gaara did just that, he just did it with a larger portion of Sand:
Link removed

Fuck I'll do you one better. SRA-Gaara did this type of shit. 

Here he grabs Lee's Leg outside his LOS:
Link removed

Here he draws Kimi's vision/focus to the sky with Sand Rain and than grabs him from bellow outside his LOS:
Link removed
Link removed



> Sasori has nowhere near the amount of sand Gaara had, and A is much, much faster than Deidara.


Amount of sand doesn't matter. All he needs is to have enough to create a Kesshou Shape defense around himself and enough to form an additional attack outside of Ei's LOS, he has more than enough to do that. See Kaihou for fucks sake.



> Iron Sand Drizzle is featless, except for failing to get to Sakura & Chiyo through Chiyo's shield. It doesn't have anything to put it above Sasuke's Chidorigatana or on par with Sasuke's Chidori. Chidori is a technique that has "pierce anything" hype, but there's nothing like that said about Drizzle.


Chidori is >>>> Raiton Flow-Sword. Chidori got through Ei's shroud and pierced his chest. Raiton-Sword bounced off. So this Chidori comparison does not work. In-fact ""Chidori""-Sword was forced back by a small block of Yamato's Wood:
Link removed

And it's only notable feats that I can recall are cutting through some smaller metal weapons. Now how exactly is that suppose to even remotely compare with something the author is directing comparing to a bullet? Or the stronger and large spikes? Or whatever other shape Sasori forms w/ Satetsu to attack Ei with. 



> He rose his chakra to tailed beast levels when preparing to combat the Mangekyou with Shunshin. All that means is that he's got a Biju-sized body of chakra buitl up to draw from when he goes to spam Shunshin.


And he had to mold Bijuu-Levels of chakra to utilize R2. Hence to sustain R2 for a certain duration requires Bijuu Chakra consumption.



> Where does it say that using Shunshin takes a substantial amount of chakra?


The distance a person cross with Shunshin is dependent on the amount of chakra put into it. Thee only Shunshin users who have crossed massive distances are chakre whores, so it stands to reason it cost a pretty penny's worth of chakra to use such a massive Shunshin, otherwise every character would do it and AOE techs would be worthless.



> Did Minato have any way to predict Obito's attempted ambush?


Except being a Sensor, not a thing 



> I know the attrition part was important, but let's take a step back. Who has the portrayal to simply win in general against somebody on Sasori's level without taking a single scratch?


And I answered that question as well. 

Have a chance any Mid-Kage, depending on conditions, though unless we get to the upper-end of Mid-Kage [or High-Kage if you prefer] Sasori's odds are probably better over various conditions.

Have a chance w/ the condition of limited knowledge, Mid-Kages that can circumvent or over-power Sasori's Puppet-Body, Heart-Swap, and Satetsu defense, as well as figure out the heart container is his true form or obliterate him regardless off it.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is that saying much when pretty much all of what Suna has is either that or puppets (which are at a disadvantage), and some wind attacks?


Shukaku's Attacks, Gold Dust Tsunami, 10 Puppet Collection, etc... are nothing, stop trolling Hussain. And it has nothing to do with advantage or disadvantage, because it's called Sungakuru's strongest weapon, not the strongest weapon against Sungakuru.



> ecause there is no proof that he is still stronger than Gaara. Yes, he was stronger at the time of that statement, but then we have proofs that Gaara became more powerful, and we have seen him defeating his father easily. So, yeah, nothing suggest he is stronger than him at this point.


"*SPII-*Gaara"



> The second Kazekage is a puppet user as proven in the Databook, so he's already as a disadvantage to both the 4th and 3rd Kazekage because of the Magnet Release.


Disadvantage doesn't matter because they are not evaluating who the strongest Kazekage is by one match up.



> We know for a fact that the highest level of puppet user Suna was able to accomplish (before Sasori) was 10 puppets at the same time. So, for all we know, the second Kazekage would probably be even weaker than Chiyo.


So basically your just not going to account for any other stat? Speed, Strength, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Quality of the Puppets Nindaime used, etc... all of this is irrelevant. Cool than Sasori is the strongest in the verse, because only amount of puppets matters when determining strength.



> I honestly place Troll-Kage, and A as superior to Tobirama who you placed highly. But yeah, I see them on Ubber-mid Kage.


You only place Ei that high because of Minato-Wank and Tobirama that low for the same reason. Let's be honest Hussain.



> Either way, I honestly think that you're putting way too much emphasis on the Kazekage's hype dispute we have barely seen anything from him, and how easily anyone can crush his puppet with a direct hit.


I'm putting the same amount of emphasis on it as the author does. 



> I saw that scan that one of the posters put for being stronger than the others by far (who were not impressive to begin with). I wanted to see Viz translation, but I don't have my volumes any more


How did you loose your volumes lol. But I read the Raw and it says he towers above the others in strength.



> Yes, it's for the village as a whole. As for Gaara and Mei, that's honestly debatable as her water jutsu
> can easily defeat his sand, and she is supposedly have a lightning release as well


Come on Hussain, I know you don't believe this shit, so i'm not going to even bother. Your problem is you've already tipped your hand that your a good poster, so I know when your trolling and I don't take it seriously.



> You forgot B in Kumo.
> Also, it's not like if Gai would use all the gates at all time, it's only once in a life-time.
> 
> Also, we have seen Konoha's members much more than the other villages characters. So, judging them based on that only wouldn't probably make much sense


Would you like to make the thread:

Ei + B + Darui vs Kakashi + Gai + SM-Naruto + Danzo

Be my guest 



> Story reasons" wouldn't take us anywhere. It was only because of a story reason or a theme, that Lee got to fodderstomps Madara with ease. It's only because of the sake of T7 why Sakura effected Kaguya, when Sasuke's PS couldn't. And so on, as many things comes off as being forced.


Again what i'm saying is if you look at the story one can see why Kishi felt the need to retcon, not that it proves anything by itself.



> It's not about being stronger than them. Rather, it's about basing Sasori/the 3rd power compared to known characters, based on his superioiry to another completely unknown characters. I just can't see how that fits.


We know what it means to be Kage, and it's not chop-liver. It's clear that someone much stronger than 4 Kages is fucking strong as hell. We also know Rasa, and can scale off of him as well.



> and of course since the 7 swordsmen we have seen in the war are stronger than the previous generation, do you agree that they are a bigger threat than JJ SM Madara


If Dai was stated to equal 8th-Gate-Gai, and the 7-Swordsmen beat him while in 8th-Gate, than yes I would. But as things stand Dai is fuck Genin "level" before 8th-Gate, so opening it I very much doubt he is on par with Gai, whose an Elite Jonin before opening 8th-Gate, and I doubt the 7 Swordsman put up a fight against 8th-Gate Dai, rather they probably outlasted it with several of them dying.

Here we have a direct comparison showing Sandaime is stronger than the other Kazekage.

Edit: Also please just let go off the fact that I said Sasori could possible be somewhat close to Minato, but ultimately inferior, because I know that's your entire issue here, and trolling with these other weak ass arguments because of it just hurts your credibility as a poster, as it makes you seem like how the Itachi-Fan-boys used to act. Is that what you want to be Hussain, Itachi-Fan-boy level


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## Dragonus-BB- (May 6, 2015)

Konan seems to have been dismissed quite quickly; CC2 & Pierrot seem to think that she'd defeat Sasori judging by the OVA produced for Storm Revolution. Heck, Kishi contributed some designs to that game and CC2 claim to have a strong relationship with him; were he opposed to the idea he could've shut it down.


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## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So ether we are assuming Ei is approaching this fighting cautiously and pragmatically, or were assuming he acts arrogantly.



He could approach this fight as to never let Sasori distance himself because puppeteers tend to have a close quarters weakness. It's an aggressive approach, but one that could work.



> I really don't see why he would get up again to let Ei just smash him, if that was the case. It's far more logical that he'd play dead, until Ei dropped his guard.



I could see him doing something along those lines, but then it depends on the effectiveness of his attempted ambush, with A not hearing or seeing any body parts moving and whatnot. 

It's also possible he takes a Liger Bomb though, which might shatter him beyond reformation. 



> Umm, what? Gaara did just that, he just did it with a larger portion of Sand:
> Sharingans



Yes, but whereas Deidara jsut barley got tagged there, A should be capable of evading with his vastly superior speed & reflexes. 



> Now how exactly is that suppose to even remotely compare with something the author is directing comparing to a bullet? Or the stronger and large spikes? Or whatever other shape Sasori forms w/ Satetsu to attack Ei with.



The Chidori blade didn't pierce A, the Chidori did. Even if you believe that Sasuke swinging a Raiton covered blade into A's neck with superhuman strength < Bullets, the difference may not be enough to compensate. 

A should be able to evade the larger spikes like Sakura was. Honestly, the fact that Sakura was able to evade most of what Sasori did with Satetsu suggests he isn't touching A. His foot speed should suffice for most, and the actual techniques like Drizzle and Kaiho (which were too much for Sakura) can be countered by Raiton: Shunshin.



> And he had to mold Bijuu-Levels of chakra to utilize R2. Hence to sustain R2 for a certain duration requires Bijuu Chakra consumption.



He ascended to v2 *before* he gathered garguantuan amounts of chakra. His chakra was raised to utilize _Shunshin_, not to use Raiton Chakra Mode at max power.



> The distance a person cross with Shunshin is dependent on the amount of chakra put into it. Thee only Shunshin users who have crossed massive distances are chakre whores, so it stands to reason it cost a pretty penny's worth of chakra to use such a massive Shunshin, otherwise every character would do it and AOE techs would be worthless.



Going really far would cost more chakra than a standard flicker, but A is one of the few that shouldn't run into chakra issues. Attacks that cover a wide range are going to consume more stamina than lower scale ones, so Sasori outlasting A when they're both using large-scale techniques seems a bit silly to me.



> Except being a Sensor, not a thing



Sensing doesn't mean much unless one is actively using it. See Jiraiya vs. Pain.

My entire point is that it depends on the Shinobi. A's never been ambushed on panel though.



> Have a chance w/ the condition of limited knowledge, Mid-Kages that can circumvent or over-power Sasori's Puppet-Body, Heart-Swap, and Satetsu defense, as well as figure out the heart container is his true form or obliterate him regardless off it.



Who can _"circumvent or over-power Sasori's Puppet-Body, Heart-Swap, and Satetsu defense, as well as figure out the heart container is his true form or obliterate him regardless off it"_ without being hit *once* though.

You keep dancing around the point I'm making, which is that almost nobody in the manga has that portrayal outside of God Tiers that Sasori can literally not damage.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 6, 2015)

Unless we see the Itachi style treatment of Sasori, whereby people claim he can take Rinnegan users or people he's admitted he'd lose to, then no. Sasori isn't overrated.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He could approach this fight as to never let Sasori distance himself because puppeteers tend to have a close quarters weakness. It's an aggressive approach, but one that could work.


That's fine, the problem is Ei won't know it's Sasori's true body exiting Hiroku, so that doesn't fit.



> I could see him doing something along those lines, but then it depends on the effectiveness of his attempted ambush, with A not hearing or seeing any body parts moving and whatnot.


Or if he's worried Ei might be able to hear him for whatever reason, he could literally just lay in weight until Ei inevitably has start to move away from him, and reform then.



> It's also possible he takes a Liger Bomb though, which might shatter him beyond reformation.


He seemed quite capable of reforming himself despite pieces shattering under Sakura's Okasho strike:
Link removed

So i'm not sure there's a limit to how damage his puppet body can get and be pieced back together, unless of course it's entire erase.



> Yes, but whereas Deidara jsut barley got tagged there, A should be capable of evading with his vastly superior speed & reflexes.


Deidara noticed the attack because of the shadow it cast from it's size. Gaara opted for an attack like that because he was aiming to capture rather than kill Deidara. 



> The Chidori blade didn't pierce A, the Chidori did. Even if you believe that Sasuke swinging a Raiton covered blade into A's neck with superhuman strength < Bullets, the difference may not be enough to compensate


Here's the thing. I think Raiton-Sword that gets pushed back by small wood block, is vastly less powerful than Bullets.



> A should be able to evade the larger spikes like Sakura was. Honestly, the fact that Sakura was able to evade most of what Sasori did with Satetsu suggests he isn't touching A. His foot speed should suffice for most, and the actual techniques like Drizzle and Kaiho (which were too much for Sakura) can be countered by Raiton: Shunshin.


Again Sakura Sasori used straightforward attacks in their LOS, because he was underestimating her and Chiyo. This is not the case here, nor is it what were discussing. We are discussing him using an attack outside of Ei's LOS.



> He ascended to v2 before he gathered garguantuan amounts of chakra. His chakra was raised to utilize Shunshin, not to use Raiton Chakra Mode at max power.


He was powering up his shroud for Shunshin. And he still seems to be amping it up to me on that page. But it's actually worse if he needs Bijuu-Chakra every time he uses R2-Shunshin, as that means he can use his top-speeds even less than he could if it takes Bijuu-Chakra to maintain the shroud for awhile.



> Going really far would cost more chakra than a standard flicker, but A is one of the few that shouldn't run into chakra issues. Attacks that cover a wide range are going to consume more stamina than lower scale ones, so Sasori outlasting A when they're both using large-scale techniques seems a bit silly to me.


Sasori literally said Kaihou only takes a little bit of his chakra. So no it seems like using a flicker that we've only seen chakra whores be capable off and not consistently, would cost more than something that only cost Sasori a little bit of chakra.



> Sensing doesn't mean much unless one is actively using it. See Jiraiya vs. Pain.


And you think Minato wasn't using it when dealing with multiple threats like Tobi and Kurama? That seems pretty silly to me.



> My entire point is that it depends on the Shinobi. A's never been ambushed on panel though.


Actually we've seen characters do this to Ei. When Minato teleports behind Ei, Ei despite being at R2 can't react in time to Minato's Kunai slash, because it's outside his LOS, while Base-B can because it's inside his LOS. When Ei looks in Tsunade's direction when fighting a Susano'o clone, he gets grabbed. When Gaara's sand appears to block his leg-drop he is caught off guard by it because his focus is on Sasuke. He gets taken off guard by Base-B appearing and blocking his attack, when his focus was on Naruto. 

Or literally thee best example is when Base-B's sends his tentacle at Ei from behind and Ei is totally unaware of it until it grabs him:
Link removed

Simply put these types of attacks have tripped Ei up numerous times. Ei has no extra sensory abilities and must rely on his sight. Any attacks outside of his sight, especially when focused on something else, will be insanely difficult if not impossible for Ei to avoid.



> Who can "circumvent or over-power Sasori's Puppet-Body, Heart-Swap, and Satetsu defense, as well as figure out the heart container is his true form or obliterate him regardless off it" without being hit once though.



Onoki and Mu could potentially do it w/ Jinton, though they could loose as well depending on conditions and when they IC pull Jinton out. SM-Jiraiya could probably do so with Senjutsu Chou Oddoma Rasengans, though he could also loose. Minato and Tobirama can potentially do so if they can warp away Satetsu to get at Sasori. B could do so with V2 or potentially TBB depending on how susceptible Bijuu are to poison. If Danzo Fuuton Combo he used to bust S3-Susano'o works against Satetsu he could do so, while relying on Izanagi for defense. SM-Naruto could do so with FRS and Chou Oddoma Rasengan Barrage. Gin and Kin could do so with Amber-Sealing Jar Hax and Sandaime-Raikage could for the same reason, and he could also potentially win with Hell-Bringer depending on how quickly he pulls it out against Satetsu. Hiruzen could depending on how quickly he pulls out multi-elemental blasts against Satetsu. 

So there are a decent amount of characters I can see having the potential to do so, but none I'd say are certainly going to win 10/10 times, unless we start going up to Nagato "level".



> which is that almost nobody in the manga has that portrayal outside of God Tiers that Sasori can literally not damage.


That's the point i'm making lol, Sasori is an incredibly dangerous shinobi to go up against with limited/no knowledge, which is why I don't see Ei's odds being very good of pulling a win in these circumstances. Unless your point is that nobody pre-god-tier can have better odds than Ei, which is wrong, because there are Shinobi that are simply more equipped than Ei, as far as sensing Sasori's techniques and having ways to circumvent his defenses.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

@turrin you still failing to answer why on earth satetsu breaches RCM 
Despite it's obvious failure at breaching chakda shield


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## Rocky (May 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That's fine, the problem is Ei won't know it's Sasori's true body exiting Hiroku, so that doesn't fit.



But once Sasori summoned the Kazekage he'd know. At that point, A'd just run Sasori down again and break him. Sasori wouldn't have the time to command the puppet to spew Iron Sand _and_ surround himself with it.

I know you linked that Satetsu can be drawn rather quickly, but it can't be drawn and manipulated at like Kamui speeds. Especially when factoring in the lag time between a puppet master's action and his puppet's response. 



> Or if he's worried Ei might be able to hear him for whatever reason, he could literally just lay in weight until Ei inevitably has start to move away from him, and reform then.



I always thought that putting himself back together was automatic and didn't require conscious effort. How do you know he can control when the reformation happens?



> So i'm not sure there's a limit to how damage his puppet body can get and be pieced back together, unless of course it's entire erase.



He was separated at the joints. Don't go all NLF on me here. If Sasori's hit hard enough, he would shatter beyond repair. 

..and I think it's safe to say that SPII Sakura's Okasho < RCM Raikage's Raiga Bomb.



> Here's the thing. I think Raiton-Sword that gets pushed back by small wood block, is vastly less powerful than Bullets.



One, why?

Two, Sasuke wasn't _swinging_ the Raiton Sword, he was just holding it inside Yamato.

Three, Drizzle being above Chidorigatana doesn't put it on par with Summit Arc Sasuke's Chidori, which was required to scratch A. I want to know why you think Drizzle could penetrate A through his armor and natural durability, despite being largely featless.



> This is not the case here, nor is it what were discussing. We are discussing him using an attack outside of Ei's LOS.



It's going to be pretty difficult to position an attack capable of damaging A outside the Raikage's visual field. Even more so if A is trying to keep tabs on all of the Iron like he was Minato's Kunai.

A's not some n00b. He could easily predict Sasori to try and go for his blind spot if everything else is failing. Remember: if A is opting to go for attrition, then his focus should become defense.

Btw, how can Sasori see with a sphere of Iron around him?



> He was powering up his shroud for Shunshin.



_No he wasn't._

His shroud hits *max* power when his hair spikes. He's not powering the shroud past _max_ power; that wouldn't make much sense now would it?

He was building up such a large amount of chakra so that he could use _repeated_ flickers to counter the Mangekyou. No other way makes sense. 



> Sasori literally said Kaihou only takes a little bit of his chakra. So no it seems like using a flicker that we've only seen chakra whores be capable off and not consistently, would cost more than something that only cost Sasori a little bit of chakra.



Evading Kaiho doesn't require a village-jumping flicker. A only needs stupid large flickers for stupid large attacks. Base speed or small flickers should work for the straight-forward attacks.  



> And you think Minato wasn't using it when dealing with multiple threats like Tobi and Kurama? That seems pretty silly to me.



Zetsu snuck up on Madara when the latter was facing God Tiers. 



> Simply put these types of attacks have tripped Ei up numerous times. Ei hasno extra sensory abilities and must rely on his sight. Any attacks outside of his sight, especially when focused on something else, will be insanely difficult if not impossible for Ei to avoid.



I'll concede that point. It's definitely more about Satetsu's ability to damage A.



> So there are a decent amount of characters I can see having the potential to do so, but none I'd say are certainly going to win 10/10 times, unless we start going up to Nagato "level".



I was speaking more towards the portrayal side. I agree that by feats almost all of those characters would win, but I was looking at it from a broader side.

Would a Nagato-level character be able to beat a Sasori-level character without taking any damage at all....._without_ knowledge? I don't think so, which is why portrayal is tricky to argue sometimes.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

maybe just maybe keshu can breach RCM. but as for the little satetsu shots. they have failed at breaching chakra shields. so most of this debate really assumes something that the manga seems to disagree with

sasori is fighting someone he cant actually hurt


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## Turrin (May 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> But once Sasori summoned the Kazekage he'd know. At that point, A'd just run Sasori down again and break him. Sasori wouldn't have the time to command the puppet to spew Iron Sand _and_ surround himself with it.
> 
> I know you linked that Satetsu can be drawn rather quickly, but it can't be drawn and manipulated at like Kamui speeds. Especially when factoring in the lag time between a puppet master's action and his puppet's response.


If were talking R1, than Suigetsu intercepted him in time, when he had to cross a much shorter distance. If were talking R2 his initial build up of R2 takes a decent amount of time. Ether way Satetsu comes out. 



> I always thought that putting himself back together was automatic and didn't require conscious effort. How do you know he can control when the reformation happens?


The better question is why would you ever think it's automatic. Sasori always controls his body's actions consciously through the heart canister, as it's the heart canister that is his actually "Mind/Body".



> He was separated at the joints. Don't go all NLF on me here. If Sasori's hit hard enough, he would shatter beyond repair.
> .


Look at the page you can see shattered parts scattering in the wind:


There's clearly tons more broken pieces featured on this page and the page after it, but I just highlighted a few so you could see what I'm talking about.

Now maybe being broken even more than that, could be troublesome or it could not be. Anyway I don't find it likely that Ei will shunshin into a Liger Bomb anyway. When he goes to blitz some he usually uses Elbows, Smashes, Punches, or Chops.



> ..and I think it's safe to say that SPII Sakura's Okasho < RCM Raikage's Raiga Bomb.


Is it safe to say. Sakura broke this gigantic boulder with her Okasho:
Choji
Choji

Meanwhile Ei didn't do nearly that kind of damage, smacking this rock-wall with his Max-Speed;
Choji

Even if you want to say Ei's Liager-Bomb is greater, the difference certainly shouldn't be that huge.



> One, why?
> 
> Two, Sasuke wasn't swinging the Raiton Sword, he was just holding it inside Yamato.


Dude it's not like Sasuke has some uber strength feats. As for why I consider it better, because again it's compared to a Bullet and went through solid rock.



> Three, Drizzle being above Chidorigatana doesn't put it on par with Summit Arc Sasuke's Chidori, which was required to scratch A. I want to know why you think Drizzle could penetrate A through his armor and natural durability, despite being largely featless.


Chidori did more than scratch Ei, Sasuke's hand went knuckles deep into Ei's flesh. The bullets don't need to penetrate that deep. I also tend to believe there is nullification effect at play when Raitons clashes, due to Darui's comment about how easily Sasuke defended his Raiton-Suiton-Combo due to being a Raiton user. 



> It's going to be pretty difficult to position an attack capable of damaging A outside the Raikage's visual field.



I don't see why, a person's field of view is limited. I could not see a Mac-Truck coming from behind me.



> Even more so if A is trying to keep tabs on all of the Iron like he was Minato's Kunai.


Difference being the marks were stationary and even than he clearly could not keep track of all of them.



> A's not some n00b. He could easily predict Sasori to try and go for his blind spot if everything else is failing. Remember: if A is opting to go for attrition, then his focus should become defense.


So he predicts it, than what, he still can't keep track of his blind-spot at all times. And Kimi is not some noob in CQC ether, and he was caught off guard by SRA-Gaara doing this. And while Ei is certainly better than Kimi by a large margin, Sasori and Satetsu is better than SRA-Gaara and his Sand by even larger margin. And of course we've seen Ei be caught off guard by attacks outside his field of view multiple times, to the point where they landed or were going to land on him, despite being VASTLY slower than his Max-Speed. So I don't see why Sasori draw his attention to the front, and than form an Iron Sand Spike behind him, hitting him, if B could do essentially the same thing with his tentacle when Ei was focused on Naruto. 



> Btw, how can Sasori see with a sphere of Iron around him?


I wonder how Sasori see's in general, but anyway, he'll just leave a hole for his face or fly.



> His shroud hits max power when his hair spikes. He's not powering the shroud past max power; that wouldn't make much sense now would it?


And this is stated where? His hair spiking is from the force of the shroud increasing, that doesn't mean he's reached max ampage. It's like when Goku goes super saiyan, his hair starts spiking up before he's even finished with the transformation, because of the force of the Ki build up.



> He was building up such a large amount of chakra so that he could use repeated flickers to counter the Mangekyou. No other way makes sense.


So does it sound better to you that he needs to use Bijuu amounts to use a few Max-Speed Shunshins? That sound like to me the end result is the same chakra taxation or worse.



> Evading Kaiho doesn't require a village-jumping flicker. A only needs stupid large flickers for stupid large attacks. Base speed or small flickers should work for the straight-forward attacks.


Never said village jumping flicker. I said it requires a flicker we've only seen from chakra whores like B.



> Zetsu snuck up on Madara when the latter was facing God Tiers.


Zetsu has a way to deny sensing



> I was speaking more towards the portrayal side. I agree that by feats almost all of those characters would win, but I was looking at it from a broader side.
> 
> Would a Nagato-level character be able to beat a Sasori-level character without taking any damage at all.....without knowledge? I don't think so, which is why portrayal is tricky to argue sometimes.


Considering he beat an entire village, SM-Jiraiya, and SM-Naruto with just his Jutsu Pain Rikudo, yes his portrayal does indicate he can do so w/o ever putting his real body in jeopardy 

And as I said before from a portrayal aspect I feel like no character is totally safe from being poisoned by Sasori, until we get to Nagato Tier. There are character who are portrayed strong enough where they can win, but winning and being entirely safe are two very different concepts.


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

turrin is ignoring me 
Is my question hard to answer ?

Btw if we want to claim RCM nullified chidori due to raiton properties

Then the same could be said about chidori nullifying RCM which is why it got through

A also seemed impressed that his defense could be breached despite knowing the Jutsu was raiton 

So more than likely satetsu can't breach it 

Though my question is hard I grant you that


----------



## Rocky (May 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If were talking R1, than Suigetsu intercepted him in time, when he had to cross a much shorter distance.



Suigetsu intercepted A's fist after he had stopped flickering and took the time to inform Sasuke that he was fucked. That's different than intercepting v1 A _flickering_ at full speed.

Oh, and it was a coordinated attack with Darui anyway. Notice how Jugo was able to cross a distance and _intercept_ Darui (who moved at the same speed as A) on the other side of Sasuke. Then later on, Super CS Jugo could barley get his arms up in time to block v1 A.



> The better question is why would you ever think it's automatic. Sasori always controls his body's actions consciously through the heart canister, as it's the heart canister that is his actually "Mind/Body".



Because regenration/restoration techniques like that are almost always automatic. If Sasori could consciously control his body parts while in fragments, then he theoretically could rip off body parts and control them separate from his main body.



> Anyway I don't find it likely that Ei will shunshin into a Liger Bomb anyway. When he goes to blitz some he usually uses Elbows, Smashes, Punches, or Chops.



I agree, but it's an option in close quarters if A sees Sasori get up from a blow.



> Is it safe to say. Sakura broke this gigantic boulder with her Okasho:
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Environmental damage like that varies. V1 A was able to _match_ a _v1 Lariat_ from B.



> Dude it's not like Sasuke has some uber strength feats.



He knocked out a gigantic bear with a single kick when he was a preteen. He's no weakling. 



> Chidori did more than scratch Ei, Sasuke's hand went knuckles deep into Ei's flesh. The bullets don't need to penetrate that deep. I also tend to believe there is nullification effect at play when Raitons clashes, due to Darui's comment about how easily Sasuke defended his Raiton-Suiton-Combo due to being a Raiton user.



The only technique that overcame A's durability on panel was Chidori. Without knowing how Drizzle stacks up to that (or even Mabui's technique), then how can you compare them?

As for the nullification thing, then it's possible that Sasuke Chidori nullified A's cloak.



> I don't see why, a person's field of view is limited. I could not see a Mac-Truck coming from behind me.



You could if you turned your head  to the side. 

We also have other senses to help us tell if something is behind us, and super ninja tend to have sharper senses than us humans. 



> Difference being the marks were stationary and even than he clearly could not keep track of all of them.



I don't remember him having problems keeping tabs on Minato's Kunai. It was the one on B didn't account for.



> So I don't see why Sasori draw his attention to the front, and than form an Iron Sand Spike behind him, hitting him, if B could do essentially the same thing with his tentacle when Ei was focused on Naruto.



Because A would hear/see Sasori attempt to move the Iron Sand into position behind him.: oh

This isn't like Gaara, who could trap Kimiamro's feet by shooting a subtle sand arm out of the ground. Sasori has to actually move a large portion of Iron Sand out of A's sight line without the Raikage noticing. Yeah, no.

Your version of Sasori is borderline fanfiction. You act like he's some unpredictable god with Satetsu, yet one of the major focal points of Sasori's _canon_ fight was _Sakura reading into his attack patterns and predetermining the direction of his attacks._ By your logic, Sasori should have just been able to position a spike in Sakura's blindspot and no diff her shit. Though instead, he had to rely on the magnetic aspect of Satetsu and track her down using the repulsion forces of Kaiho.



> And this is stated where? His hair spiking is from the force of the shroud increasing, that doesn't mean he's reached max ampage. It's like when Goku goes super saiyan, his hair starts spiking up before he's even finished with the transformation, because of the force of the Ki build up.



It takes him an instance to spike his hair. Goku's flickers yellow and sways before spiking up. I also think B yelled "he's at Max Power!" in the viz, though you can check the raw yourself for the correct translation. 

There's _nothing_ indicating that A gradually charges up to max power.



> So does it sound better to you that he needs to use Bijuu amounts to use a few Max-Speed Shunshins? That sound like to me the end result is the same chakra taxation or worse.



Where did I say "a few?" I'm not sure how many v2 flickers A can use subsequently, but since he has the ability to gather Tailed Beats levels of chakra up to draw from, then I'm guessing it's a shitton.



> Never said village jumping flicker. I said it requires a flicker we've only seen from chakra whores like B.



Even the flicker we saw from B is overkill if evading Kaiho is the goal. 

Besides, that flicker didn't appear to tire out B at all.



> Zetsu has a way to deny sensing



Which is?


----------



## Turrin (May 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Suigetsu intercepted A's fist after he had stopped flickering and took the time to inform Sasuke that he was fucked. That's different than intercepting v1 A _flickering_ at full speed.


Ei always stops Shunshin when he goes to actually land the attack. We see that in the scan you posted as well. We see that when he uses Shunshin against:

Sasuke:
_flickering_

Naruto:
_flickering_
_flickering_

Minato:
_flickering_

Madara:
_flickering_
_flickering_
_flickering_
_flickering_

Mu:
_flickering_
_flickering_

Now maybe his attack was a bit slower against Sasuke because he full stopped and than attacked instead of simply releasing the Shunshin and than following through in the same motion with a punch. But that minor difference doesn't mean much considering Satetsu is hell off a-lot faster than Suigetsu and there is more distance to cover here.



> Oh, and it was a coordinated attack with Darui anyway.


A coordinated attack requires it to be well coordinated. Ei and Darui attacked with totally unrelated attacks. 



> . Notice how Jugo was able to cross a distance and intercept Darui (who moved at the same speed as A) on the other side of Sasuke. Then later on, Super CS Jugo could barley get his arms up in time to block v1 A.


Do I think Ei's attack used against Juugo was faster than the one used against Sasuke, sure I do, because of how he launched it. Again he followed through with the punch instead of stopping and going for a smash. However this isn't some huge difference in speed illustrated. Juugo was right next to Darui [1]. So he did not have to take more than a few steps to get between Darui and Sasuke. This small difference isn't making up the difference of distance here > distance there, and Satetsu Faster than Juugo/Suigetsu.



> Because regenration/restoration techniques like that are almost always automatic.


It's not a regeneration/restoration technique. It's literally a technique that allows him to freely control the puppet body. 



> If Sasori could consciously control his body parts while in fragments, then he theoretically could rip off body parts and control them separate from his main body.


That's literally what he does when he reforms. It's also what he does when he can control his pelvic harpoon through telepathy [1], it's not like it's attached to the main body in any meaningful way that would allow Sasori to control it as such, it's literally just attached to a poll in his stomach [2]. Is that not what he does when he telepathically controls a specific puppet body behind Chiyo to attach to his ejected heart container [3]. And it's not like when the heart container went into that puppet body, he was forced to automatically reform that body, as it's arm didn't auto reattach.



> I agree, but it's an option in close quarters if A sees Sasori get up from a blow.


Which brings us back to why would Sasori get up just to be smashed again.



> Environmental damage like that varies. V1 A was able to match a v1 Lariat from B.


B lowered his power to match Ei, that's what happened, hence why later Base-B beat Ei in lariate.



> He knocked out a gigantic bear with a single kick when he was a preteen. He's no weakling.


No Ninja is a weakling, but the dude has a mere 3.5 in Str. Will it make a difference, sure, will it make enough of a difference where deflecting Raiton-Ksunagi holds any merit in discussing how Ei's Shroud will perform against Satetsu; no.



> The only technique that overcame A's durability on panel was Chidori. Without knowing how Drizzle stacks up to that (or even Mabui's technique), then how can you compare them?


Once again Drizzle does not need to be as good as Chidori and it's not a Raiton. Mabui's Tech is a joke considering it only caused minor scratches to Tsunade.



> As for the nullification thing, then it's possible that Sasuke Chidori nullified A's cloak.


Maybe, but that still leaves an inconclusive feat ether way as we don't know whose technique and which uses was better suited at nullification. Though I'd venture the defenses Tech pumped with more chakra is probably better as far as that goes.



> We also have other senses to help us tell if something is behind us, and super ninja tend to have sharper senses than us humans.


Yes and Ninja's techs are equally super human. Fuck I don't even know why your still arguing when I've directly shown attacks outside of Ei's LOS catch him off guard before.



> I don't remember him having problems keeping tabs on Minato's Kunai. It was the one on B didn't account for.


I said marks in general. He did not know where they all were. Just like he wouldn't know where all the Satetsu in a long battle against Sasori at all times



> Because A would hear/see Sasori attempt to move the Iron Sand into position behind him.: oh


Yet he failed to do so in numerous similar situations. How is this fair rocky.



> This isn't like Gaara, who could trap Kimiamro's feet by shooting a subtle sand arm out of the ground. Sasori has to actually move a large portion of Iron Sand out of A's sight line without the Raikage noticing. Yeah, no.


This minuscule amount Iron Sand [1] formed around 18 spikes [2]. So literally he only needs to get 1/18th of that amount of Iron-Sand behind Ei to form a spike. That's an incredibly small amount of Iron-Sand; and that's assuming he even needs a spike that large considering Sasori showed that the Iron-Sand bullets pack an enormous punch, and he could separate that same quantity of Iron-Sand into at least a hundred bullets, and even if 1 bullet isn't large enough, he could easily form something larger than the bullet but smaller than the spike.



> You act like he's some unpredictable god with Satetsu, yet one of the major focal points of Sasori's canon fight was Sakura reading into his attack patterns and predetermining the direction of his attacks. By your logic, Sasori should have just been able to position a spike in Sakura's blindspot and no diff her shit. Though instead, he had to rely on the magnetic aspect of Satetsu and track her down using the repulsion forces of Kaiho


I'm sorry rocky, but this is what's fanfic. Sasori used Satetsu Shigure on Sakura, and Chiyo had to save her ass. He than used another Satetsu Shigure and Chiyo again had to save her ass. He than used Kessho and Chiyo again had to save her ass. Than Sakura dodged a single Kessho block and than Sakura got hit by Kaihou. Sakura literally only evade a single satetsu attack. It was Chiyo who was predicting the attacks, but even she could not evade them sans the Kesshou attacks and to rely on her Chakra shield defenses. And Sasori literally used 4 attacks against them while fucking around and only getting serious enough to use a tiny bit of his chakra in the last attack, so to use that as a means to ignore Sasori's very clear capabilities with Satetsu, is outright ridiculous. 



> I also think B yelled "he's at Max Power!" in the viz, though you can check the raw yourself for the correct translation.


It does say Maximum in the Raw, so perhaps he was building up for the Shunshin, but I still don't really see why that distinction is better, in-fact it seems worse to me.



> Where did I say "a few?" I'm not sure how many v2 flickers A can use subsequently, but since he has the ability to gather Tailed Beats levels of chakra up to draw from, then I'm guessing it's a shitton.


Or he needs Tailed-Best Chakra to use such a quick Shunshin, which seems much more fitting.



> Even the flicker we saw from B is overkill if evading Kaiho is the goal.


And this matters why? It's still consuming a decent amount of chakra to do so, otherwise everyone and there mom would be capable of those Shunshin, instead of just chakra whores showing it, which is not the case. So again how are you so confident that Ei can use more of those Shunshin than Sasori can use Kaihou, when Kaihou only cost him a little bit of his chakra?



> Besides, that flicker didn't appear to tire out B at all.


How would we know how much it took out of him. B immediately got chakra from Hachibi after that. 



> Which is?


I don't know the dudes abilities are under explained, but he's shown the ability to sneak up on a multitude of characters with extrasensory abilities. Maybe it's just Kagero though. Ether way you shouldn't be using this as evidence of anything.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 8, 2015)

A can bumrush Sasori and shred him with ease. He is a horrible match up due to his speed and armor. Like Whats Sasori going to do to A ? Lets be generous and assume that Sasori lands a hit on A(maybe 1 out of 10000 attacks can land), what is that going to accomplish ?Sasuke's chidori Katana bounced off A's neck. I am pretty sure that is more penetrative than 99% of Sasori's arsenal.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Suigetsu/Jugo intercepting A/Darui is what your banking on here. _Not only_ is it probable that A slowed down so as to swing at the same time as Darui, but Suigetsu getting in front of A before he swung down on Sasuke is no different than B forming a tentacle and smacking A out of Minato's way mid-blitz. That didn't stop Minato from being too fast for Kamui though.


Minato used Hiraishin in a totally different manner against Obito than he did again Ei, teleporting in such a way that his Rasengan was basically hitting Obito the moment he completed the warp.



> So let's take a look at the responses of all the targeted shinobi in those scans.


Dude Ei was in R2 or enhanced by Onoki in many of those scans, while we are talking about R1 Ei. I was just showing you that Ei releases his Shunshin every time before launching his attack.



> A's blitz, he's going to physically manipulate a puppet into opening its mouth, Satetsu's going exit it's mouth, Sasori's going to physically control puppet again so that Iron Sand takes shape, and Satetsu itself will move into the defensive formation, protecting him from A's blitz.


Please show why you think this takes any time at all. Opening the puppets mouth, when was this shown to take more than a fraction of a mili-second. Iron sand which moves faster than the speed of sound, is suppose to take so long why exactly.

This is ridiculous rocky, I've literally shown you that Sasori can pull out Kessho faster than Ei can use R2 and Shunshin. I've shown you characters whose movement speed is slower than the time it takes Sasori to open the puppets mouth and pull at Satetsu intercept and react to Ei. 



> It was Sakura that began to read through Sasori's attack pattern. She needed Chiyo in the beginning, but very soon Sakura learned to do it on her own as she continued to fight against him.
> 
> It loos like some of that fight was off paneled. Notice Sasori's position; kneeling on the wall with his Iron Sand smashed into it right next to him. Then we cut away, and next we see Sasori standing on the ground with his Iron Sand floating above him. Furthermore, Sakura has a cut on her arm in the second link that she didn't have in the first.
> 
> The only trouble Sakura & Chiyo had were with the named sand techniques, Drizzle & Kaiho.


So she could evade Kessho from a fucking around Sasori who was using next to none of his chakra, considering even Kaihou he only used a tiny bit for. What relevance does this even hold when I never said Kessho would hit Ei lol.



> A has answers for those techniques in the form of legendary flickers, but yet he's going to get a spike positioned in his blind spot and fucking stabbed? When Sakura could determine Sasori's attack direction just by briefly fighting against him?


No he doesn't.. You saying Sakura could evade straight forward Kessho attacks, holds absolutely no baring on how I said Sasori will hit Ei and absolutely does not counter the fact that I literally showed Ei can be hit by attacks outside his LOS and that satetsu can be manipulated outside his LOS to hit him.



> Sure buddy.


I'm sorry, but the "sure-buddy" argument is something that I should be saying at this point. Ei is the man who has straight up stood around and done nothing, proceed to let his opponent attack him multiple times while continuing to stand around doing nothing, and than even when attacking has done so at the expense of straight up running through or into attacks, paying no mind to injuries. Yet somehow against a totally unknown enemy he's going to be this ultra cautious to the point of avoiding a single scratch when he has no knowledge of such a thing being at all dangerous to him. 

Ei is vastly more likely to throw caution to the wind and allow himself to take hits from Satetsu not knowing about their poisonous nature or directly plow his way through Satetsu attacks to get at Sasori paying no mind to being scratched. Likely the match would just end with Ei allowing Satetsu Shigure to hit him or running through Shigure not paying any mind to the scratches to get at Sasori; or insert any Satetsu attack there. 

But i've allowed you to ignore how Ei IC acts this way, against an enemy he has much more reason to fear than Sasori [a man who he thought beat B], and pretend he takes this ultra cautious approach, and even still you have not given any answer whatsoever for how Ei would be able to fight an entire attrition battle while avoiding a single Satetsu attack hit him from outside his LOS, when we've directly seen him be caught off guard by attacks outside his LOS, except for the idea that maybe he be agressive enough to defeat Sasori before he could pull out Satetsu. But not only does that ignore that once again he was less aggressive than your expecting him to be here, against an enemy he had more reason to be aggressive towards for personal vendetta reasons as well as threat level, and undermines the speed of Satetsu, but it also expects the match to be at Short Range. And that's w/o even going into whether one of Sasori's other hundreds of human puppets has a quick LOS blocking Jutsu that can be pulled out to give Sasori the space necessary to set up Satetsu defense or even the Kazekage's Poison Cloud to block LOS till Satetsu is out. 

Than even still Ei can be hit by Sasori ambushing him after he thinks Sasori is dead and lowers his guard.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 8, 2015)

Hence why I think Sasori's overrated.

There's a gap between his attack speed and fast high tiers.
​


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke's chidori Katana bounced off A's neck. I am pretty sure that is more penetrative than 99% of Sasori's arsenal.



Great point.​


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## FlamingRain (May 8, 2015)

Sakura could register Sasuke's _attacks_ just fine, considering that she was able to notice Yamato get between her and Sasuke _before_ Sasuke managed to hit her.

Sasuke used his _Shunshin_ (which is goes faster than the attacks of _most_ high tiers travel, not just Sasori's Satetsu Kesshū) only _one time_.

It took Sakura _several times_ to catch on to Sasori's offensive pattern. Catching her off guard _initially_ before she could adjust is something that Sasori could have done to Sakura _many_ times had Chiyo not been there.


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## StickaStick (May 8, 2015)

Nah, I think Sasori is rated fairly enough; about mid-tier Akatsuki.

The problem is if Kishi wanted us to believe he's better than he was actually portrayed then he would have demonstrated so, even more so given the ample opportunity he had when he brought him back during the War-Arc. Instead of dispelling any notion that his loss to Sakura and Chiyo wasn't _solely _circumstantial, he had him look like fodder during the War. Puppets or no puppets it's an insight into how little a fuck Kishi gave about him and his standing among the readers.


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## Alex Payne (May 8, 2015)

The thing about Kusanagi bouncing off... We never actually saw that. We saw Sasuke behind A. With A knowing about that. Sasuke swings - A still looks at him. Then the panel of just Kusanagi flying away. Sasuke backing down like he was pushed back by something. And then A facing Sasuke. I was rewatching anime version of that some time ago which plays similar and became curious - maybe Raikage quickly turned around and blocked/smashed Kusanagi swing away with his armor-clad hand. Not saying that Sauce _can_ hurt A with a basic swing. Just random thoughts.  

Kusanagi swing ain't that good of an attack anyways. Sasuke's physical strength is average(Base B didn't even feel his kick) and with Raiton negated by other Raiton it quickly becomes far less threatening. 

And for Satetsu vs RCM... I have my doubts that "Suna's Greatest Weapon" would have completely no effect. At least the same damage as Chidori from a concentrated attack imo. 

P.S. Sasori immobilizes Raikage by magnetically controlling his armguards


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## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> P.S. Sasori immobilizes Raikage by magnetically controlling his armguards


Lol I was thinking the same thing


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## Rocky (May 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kusanagi swing ain't that good of an attack anyways. Sasuke's physical strength is average(Base B didn't even feel his kick) and with Raiton negated by other Raiton it quickly becomes far less threatening.



Sasuke without any enhancement can chop clean through Danzo, but with the Raiton enhancement failed to even knick A. It's an impressive feat.



> And for Satetsu vs RCM... I have my doubts that "Suna's Greatest Weapon" would have completely no effect. At least the same damage as Chidori from a concentrated attack imo.



Chidori's is hyped to be one of the more penetrative attacks in the manga. Satetsu is "Suna's Greatest Weapon," but it isn't known as that for it's penetrative force.

If Sasori gathered enough of it to form a massive spike, then maybe he'd have a shot. He just wouldn't ever connect.


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## Rocky (May 8, 2015)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Sasori's going to physically manipulate a puppet into opening its mouth, Satetsu's going exit it's mouth, Sasori's going to physically control puppet again so that Iron Sand takes shape, and Satetsu itself will move into the defensive formation.





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Please show why you think this takes any time at all.



I lol'd.

Sasori can apparently do all of that in the time it takes Super CS Jugo or KCM Naruto to put their arms up.

Good to know. 



> You saying Sakura could evade straight forward Kessho attacks, holds absolutely no baring on how I said Sasori will hit Ei and absolutely does not counter the fact that I literally showed Ei can be hit by attacks outside his LOS and that satetsu can be manipulated outside his LOS to hit him.



The fact that Sakura wasn't killed by "Satetsu spike positioned out of her line of sight," means there's basically zero chance this happens to A. Maybe once you start to realize that the attacks Sasori used on Sakura likely weren't very predictable, we'll get somewhere. 

As I said, there was a portion of the fight that was off panel. She fought against Sasori for longer than we saw, and yet was still able to evade everything sans Kaiho...which A can evade. The entire reason that Chiyo was impressed with Sakura is because she was reading into his attack direction in order to evade attacks that _weren't'_ so straightforward. 

If you find it likely that Chiyo was all like _"wow..this is some girl"_ and _"she's already beginning to read through his attack pattern.."_ because Sakura jumped over one lone spike *with Chiyo's f*cking assistance*, then we _won't_ get anywhere.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke without any enhancement can chop clean through Danzo, but with the Raiton enhancement failed to even knick A. It's an impressive feat.


You mean this? Sasuke didn't chop _through_ Danzo. He was able to wound him and chopped off Hashiarm. Durability of which might be lacking(Zetsu's parts for example had regen but weren't very durable).


----------



## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I lol'd.
> 
> Sasori can apparently do all of that in the time it takes Super CS Jugo or KCM Naruto to put their arms up.


No he can do all of that by the time Ei actually decides to blitz him, cross the greater distance than was the case for CS-Juugo, and launches his attack. Why becuase opening the Kazekage's mouth can probably be done before Ei even starts initiating the blitz. Than it's what's faster Juugo or Satetsu, I go with Satetsu, especially since the distance is longer.



> The fact that Sakura wasn't killed by "Satetsu spike positioned out of her line of sight," means there's basically zero chance this happens to A.


Sakura would have been killed if Chiyo didn't save her, first off. Second off the Satetsu spikes were not outside her line of sight, Chiyo saw them coming and defended. So your point is moot.



> Maybe once you start to realize that the attacks Sasori used on Sauke likely weren't very straightforward we'll get somewhere. As I said, there was a portion of the fight that was off panel. She fought against Sasori for longer than we saw, and yet was still able to evade everything sans Kaiho...which A can evade.


_"False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors."_

Rocky's Claim: Sakura Evade Some Satetsu Attacks, Therefore Ei can evade Satetsu

Anecdotal similarity, it's Satetsu. Oversimplification all Satetsu attacks are the same, Ignorance of additional factors germane to the discussion:

Satetsu Kessho ≠ Satetsu Shigure 
Attacks from Inside Someone's LOS ≠ Attacks Outside Someone's LOS

When you stop employing a false equivalence fallacy, than we could actually get somewhere.



> If you find it likely that Chiyo was all like "wow..this is some girl" and "she's already beginning to read through his attack pattern.." because Sakura jumped over one lone spike with Chiyo's f*cking assistance, then we won't get anywhere.


I never said Sakura couldn't evade Kessho
I never said Ei would ever be hit by Kessho
The discussion was never about Kessho


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## Rocky (May 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You mean this? Sasuke didn't chop _through_ Danzo. He was able to wound him and chopped off Hashiarm.



The blood spurting out of his mid section and wrapping around his body look to me as if he was cut clean through. The arm was taken off too, just in a separate motion.


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## Rocky (May 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No he can do all of that by the time Ei actually decides to blitz him, cross the greater distance than was the case for CS-Juugo, and launches his attack. Why becuase opening the Kazekage's mouth can probably be done before Ei even starts initiating the blitz. Than it's what's faster Juugo or Satetsu, I go with Satetsu, especially since the distance is longer.



The distance between Sasori (who has just exited the smashed Hiruko) and Sakura is _less_ than that of A and _Jugo_, _comparable_ to Obito, and undetermined in the case of Naruto (depends on how high they were in the air). That argument is out.

Remember where this particular point started: I said A was going to blitz in order to attack the _puppet master_ in close quarters. You said that A wouldn't figure that the hooded figure was Sasori, but pulling out another puppet would solve that mystery. 

A can react to the summoning of the Kazekage almost instantly thanks to his lightning powered reflexes, so I'd like to know how Sasori attaches the chakra strings and get's the thing's mouth open before A decides to run over there.

I'd also like to know why you think Satetsu coming out of the puppets mouth and shaping into something defensive is faster than CS Jugo or KCM Naruto putting their arms up. Not only is there a _lag time_ between master and puppet stated in the third Databook (Sasori doesn't control Satetsu telepathically like Gaara controls sand), but why is the actual exiting of the sand and shaping of the sand faster than an arm guard at all?



> Sakura would have been killed if Chiyo didn't save her, first off. Second off the Satetsu spikes were not outside her line of sight, Chiyo saw them coming and defended. So your point is moot.



I wonder how many times I have to say that a portion of the fight was off panel. If what was impressive to Chiyo was _Sakura's_ ability to predetermine the direction of Sasori's attacks, then that suggests so they weren't _so_ predictable and straightforward that anyone could see them coming.

I'm also aware that there was a brief period of time where Sasori could have beaten Sakura without Chiyo, but it isn't like Chiyo is better at getting Sakura out of the way of Iron Sand than A is at getting himself out of the way, so I don't see how this helps your point. 



> Satetsu Kessho ≠ Satetsu Shigure
> Attacks from Inside Someone's LOS ≠ Attacks Outside Someone's LOS
> 
> When you stop employing a false equivalence fallacy, than we could actually get somewhere.
> ...



Then what is it about. 

Kaiho and Drizzle can be evaded with Shunshin. All this time I though your argument was that Sasori was going to shape Satetsu into a spear/spike (witch means he's using the Kesshū technique) and attempt to position it behind A.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 8, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> The thing about Kusanagi bouncing off... We never actually saw that. We saw Sasuke behind A. With A knowing about that. Sasuke swings - A still looks at him. Then the panel of just Kusanagi flying away. Sasuke backing down like he was pushed back by something. And then A facing Sasuke. I was rewatching anime version of that some time ago which plays similar and became curious - maybe Raikage quickly turned around and blocked/smashed Kusanagi swing away with his armor-clad hand. Not saying that Sauce _can_ hurt A with a basic swing. Just random thoughts.
> 
> Kusanagi swing ain't that good of an attack anyways. Sasuke's physical strength is average(Base B didn't even feel his kick) and with Raiton negated by other Raiton it quickly becomes far less threatening.
> 
> ...



Actualy on the panel you posted, the sword is about to make contact(sasuke brought his hands all the way down). So I doubt Raikage had enough time to deflect the sword, I don't think the author would simply get lazy and omit a few panels just like that. Also when you consider that A's armor is hyped in the next chapter, contextually, him standing there without the need to turn and face Sasuke is a testament to his confidence in his armor.



Alex Payne said:


> You mean this? Sasuke didn't chop _through_ Danzo. He was able to wound him and chopped off Hashiarm. Durability of which might be lacking(Zetsu's parts for example had regen but weren't very durable).



They way the blood is gushing clearly indicates that the sword cut through him. Its not just a gash in the front section.

Also the sword is sharp enough to impale JJ Madara and chop Kabuto's horn in SM.
I'd say its feats are pretty legit, and anyone who can tank it even without the raiton enhancement can be easily placed on top durability tier.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The distance between Sasori (who has just exited the smashed Hiruko) and Sakura is _less_ than that of A and _Jugo_, _comparable_ to Obito, and undetermined in the case of Naruto (depends on how high they were in the air).


I'm assuming, and I think it's a completely fair assumption, that Sasori will seek to create more distance against RCM-Ei, than he did against Sakura.



> Remember where this particular point started: I said A was going to blitz in order to attack the puppet master in close quarters. You said that A wouldn't figure that the hooded figure was Sasori, but pulling out another puppet would solve that mystery.


I'm assuming and again I think it's a fair assumption, that it takes Ei a moment to process the fact that the Kazekage has been summoned out. Just like it took Chiyo a moment to process. And during that moment Sasori had enough time to attach strings and move the Kazekage:
_comparable_
_comparable_

Not to mention these actions can be done on the fly so Sasori can continue to move backwards, and father away from Ei while doing so.



> I'd also like to know why you think Satetsu coming out of the puppets mouth and shaping into something defensive is faster than CS Jugo or KCM Naruto putting their arms up. Not only is there a lag time between master and puppet stated in the third Databook (Sasori doesn't control Satetsu telepathically like Gaara controls sand), but why is the actual exiting of the sand and shaping of the sand faster than an arm guard at all?


Satetsu is so fast we see it creating sonic booms when used in the manga. The DB even describes it's ability to change into a solid shape as instantaneous "it's changed into solid shapes in an instant" and hypes it's speed in general to no end. This is well beyond the speed of Juugo. You are simply underestimating how fast Satetsu can be when Sasori is going full throttle with it. 



> I wonder how many times I have to say that a portion of the fight was off panel


I repeat, i'm not talking about Kessho.



> Kaiho and Drizzle can be evaded with Shunshin. All this time I though your argument was that Sasori was going to shape Satetsu into a spear/spike (witch means he's using the Kesshū technique) and attempt to position it behind A.


Satetsu Shigure can also be shaped into a spike:
_comparable_

That's what i'm talking about.


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## Rocky (May 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'm assuming, and I think it's a completely fair assumption, that Sasori will seek to create more distance against RCM-Ei, than he did against Sakura.



Maybe, maybe not. It isn't as if Sakura wasn't a threat to him in close quarters, and it isn't like Sasori has full intel on A.



> I'm assuming and again I think it's a fair assumption, that it takes Ei a moment to process the fact that the Kazekage has been summoned out. Just like it took Chiyo a moment to process. And during that moment Sasori had enough time to attach strings and move the Kazekage.



I mentioned A's super synapse speed for a reason. That is something Chiyo doesn't have. The moment it takes A to mentally process the summoning is incredibly brief because of those reflexes, and I don't see Sasori performing two physical maneuvers before A's reacted to the summoning and taken off.



> Not to mention these actions can be done on the fly so Sasori can continue to move backwards, and father away from Ei while doing so.



Why would he want to? If he pulls out the puppet while he's jumping away from Hiruko, then he'll be close to A.



> Satetsu is so fast we see it creating sonic booms when used in the manga. The DB even describes it's ability to change into a solid shape as instantaneous "it's changed into solid shapes in an instant" and hypes it's speed in general to no end. This is well beyond the speed of Juugo. You are simply underestimating how fast Satetsu can be when Sasori is going full throttle with it.



Drizzle moves very quickly, but that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about Kesshu defenses, which aren't _that_ fast.

"Instant" is a relative and often hyperbolic term. Iron Sand shapes pretty quickly, but it isn't instantaneous like S/T jutsu. It also doesn't exit the puppet's mouth instantaneously. There's no way that drawing and shaping the sand is faster than simply rasing one's arms. 

You're essentially arguing that Sasori performs three physical actions (attach strings, open mouth, draw & shape Satetsu) in the time in takes Naruto or Jugo to put their arms up.



> Satetsu Shigure can also be shaped into a spike:
> _comparable_
> 
> That's what i'm talking about.



Using Drizzle and Kesshu at the same time is something Sasori's never done. Tbh, I don't see why he wouldn't have done against Sakura if it was an option.  

Furthermore, there was never any evidence brought fourth that suggests Drizzle bullets can even pierce both A's shroud and body durability.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

@Rocky

I'm going to try and summarize my thoughts to clarify things a bit.

I think the match will start with Ei going RCM. Sasori will likely have knowledge of RCM and know it's threat. This means he'll be immediately in the mind-set to pull out Satetsu defense. Ei using RCM will go to smash Hiroku, if he doesn't decided to stand there like against Hebi-Sasuke [in which case the rest of this becomes unnecessary as Sasori cake walks into Satetsu defense]. Ei will smash Hiroku, but while his focus is on Hiroku Sasori will Shunshin [or move] away from Ei as fast as possible, while pulling out the Kazekage Puppet. Ei at some point during this should notice the black-blob moving the opposite direction, but between the cloak and the smoke from the summoning Ei assuming he's cautious here [which otherwise he just stands there anyway] won't rush towards it. By the time the smoke and cloak are out of the way Ei will see Sasori, but Sasori should have had enough time to attach chakra threads and open the Kazekage's mouth at least. Ei may than use Shunshin to charge Sasori, though he might also just physically rush him as nothing has tipped Ei off to the threat Sasori posses yet, but assuming he uses Shunshin, than it becomes Shunshin + Successive attack, versus Satetsu Coming out and Shaping it. 

I personally think Sasori will have enough time to do this, while continuing to move backwards away from Ei, but even if he does not have time to form the full Kessho shape around himself, he doesn't need to do so, he just needs to get enough Satetsu between himself and EI to cushion Ei's blow, so that when he's sent flying he doesn't break apart and than can draw out more Satetsu before Ei attacks again. Even more dangerously he could choose to shape the Satetsu into bladed weapon to put between himself and Ei, and Ei would probably just smack into it w/ reckless abandon and get scratched by it, while successfully smashing Sasori, but unfortunately be GG'd by the poison right afterwards, while Sasori reforms. And assuming Sasori can't even conjure this much Satetsu by the time Ei reaches him and follows through with his attack, he could use Senju Sōbu which appears at the speed of Kuchiyose to slow Ei down, while forming his Satetsu defense, Ei will certainly avoid it, but as him making the move to evade around it will give Sasori more time to finish his Satetsu prep, and if for some reason that is still not ready, he can have Senju Sobo release it's poison cloud blocking Ei's LOS, thus slowing him down even further, if not outright finishing him by him mistakenly inhaling the poisons gas.

Even still assuming for some inexplicable reason none of this works, and Ei smashes Sasori, he can still play dead, until he ether gets a chance to ambush Ei or until Ei lowers his guard and distances himself enough from Sasori, that he's got the time to reattach his body and pull out Satetsu defense. 

Once he has Satetsu Kesshou shape out Ei can't get through his defenses, and it becomes an attrition war. I do not see Ei being able to keep track off all the massive quantity of Iron sand Sasori can conjure to the point where he knows where at all times even the small amount necessary to make a Shigure Spike is, and all he needs is one outside his LOS to hit Ei. And no I do not see any reason to believe RCM is blocking a Satetsu spike, as I do not think Chidori is vastly more powerful than a solid Iron spike moving at sonic boom creating speeds at Ei, I just don't.  And if for some inexplicable reason Sasori can not use Kessho and Shigure at the same time, which literally makes no sense whatsoever to me, he can quite literally just fly out of Ei's range and than simply have a Satetsu platform for himself, instead of Kessho and than use Shigure to attack Ei. And even if somehow that magically isn't enough Ei himself is likely to just run through Satetsu attacks allowing them to hit him, not thinking one dam thing about a scratch the same way he allowed Sasuke to hit him and didn't give a shit even when Sasuke did more than scratch to him with Chidori. Than Sasori has other techniques to throw Ei off as well, 100 Puppets, Whatever Jutsu his other Human Puppets have, high order Genjutsu skill, and so on.  So simply put I see no way Ei wins the attrition warfare end of this match and given the conditions it would require Sasori to play an absolutely god awful game for him not to get to that point, and Ei is the one much more likely to play said god aweful game considering how he acted against Sasuke, he's less intelligent, less experienced, and less hyped.

Basically Ei wins if he plays an unlikely perfect game, while Sasori plays an unlikely terrible game. IC Ei is more likely to have the flaws in his game tho and Sasori is likely to play the more flawless game IC. However if both play a really good game it will end with Sasori eventually scratching Ei after an extremely long high-diff battle. Ether way Sasori wins more times than Ei, and at longer ranges this only increases in likelihood.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 9, 2015)

Question : How does Sasori and his puppets/projectiles follow A when a guy with better speed feats and sharingan precog couldn't ?


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## LostSelf (May 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> The thing about Kusanagi bouncing off... We never actually saw that. We saw Sasuke behind A. With A knowing about that. Sasuke swings - A still looks at him. Then the panel of just Kusanagi flying away. Sasuke backing down like he was pushed back by something. And then A facing Sasuke. I was rewatching anime version of that some time ago which plays similar and became curious - maybe Raikage quickly turned around and blocked/smashed Kusanagi swing away with his armor-clad hand. Not saying that Sauce _can_ hurt A with a basic swing. Just random thoughts.



I think the Kusanagi clashed with Ei there. Unless Ei turned around pretty fast and blocked it, but it's not surprising that he tanked it considering a chidori stab was able to only pierced him a bit.

You can also compare him with Kimimaro, whose bones were strong enough to block (albeit they were a bit cut through) Raiton flowed Katana. If Ei and his shroud makes him more durable than his bones, something i think he is, because a direct stab (Wich is more penetrating than a slash) barely pierced his skin, then we can safely say he could've tanked Sasuke's attack.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Ei back blocked sasuke raiton flow sword causally 
Shown in the anime and manga

Since I haven't been answered by turrin what evidence is there at all that someone who kishi compared his durablility to the sandaime who tanks FRS can be damaged by satetsu that is failin to crack chiyo  cjakra shield with zero hype


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## Empathy (May 11, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Instead of dispelling any notion that his loss to Sakura and Chiyo wasn't _solely _circumstantial, he had him look like fodder during the War. Puppets or no puppets it's an insight into how little a fuck Kishi gave about him and his standing among the readers.



It was said to be circumstantial at the time of his defeat. Sasori could've avoided Chiyo's attack and won if he really wanted to. Not to mention the preparation given that happened through circumstance and the more blatant examples of PIS.


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

I would imagine he is underrated. He doesn't get much respect. Although I feel like he's a character who is either liked or hated. The people who hate him believe he's fodder. And the ones that like him are usually more rational in his placement and standing


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

He is underrated sure but he is a terrible matchup against Raikage. I dont care if Sakura is predicting **** if you cant hit frakking Sakura who has never been the fastest person around especially back then in the manga then no way can you hit a guy who Sasuke with MS cant even land Amaterasu on an ability that simply requires to look at a target. Raikage would beat Sasori because he just speed blitz him and slice/dice those puppets like there is no tmw. And that is even assuming you believe Sasori's weapon can penetrate Raikage at all. Something I am not sold on.

I mean sheesh end of manga/grown up Sakura doesnt have the speed to keep up Raikage and other speedsters in this manga...Sakura at the start of Part 2 roughly sure as hell cant. 

In short Sasori's problem in my book is he is like Gaara ie pretty powerful if he can setup but requires range because he aint the fastest dude around and needs to prep for trickery.


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## Megu-Nee (Feb 13, 2016)

@op nope. deidara treated him with respect after all. but his showing in the war arc is quite disappointing.



Skaddix said:


> He is underrated sure but he is a terrible matchup against Raikage. I dont care if Sakura is predicting **** if you cant hit frakking Sakura who has never been the fastest person around especially back then in the manga then no way can you hit a guy who Sasuke with MS cant even land Amaterasu on an ability that simply requires to look at a target. Raikage would beat Sasori because he just speed blitz him and slice/dice those puppets like there is no tmw. And that is even assuming you believe Sasori's weapon can penetrate Raikage at all. Something I am not sold on.
> 
> I mean sheesh end of manga/grown up Sakura doesnt have the speed to keep up Raikage and other speedsters in this manga...Sakura at the start of Part 2 roughly sure as hell cant.
> 
> In short Sasori's problem in my book is he is like Gaara ie pretty powerful if he can setup but requires range because he aint the fastest dude around and needs to prep for trickery.



sakura isn't super quick but she isn't super slow either. 

one of kaguya's attack took out naruto's clone faster than he can blink while sakura ran until kakashi had the time to grab her to safety. that had to count for something.


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

Not really Naruto's Clone doesnt have the Impetus to run like Sakura and if i am focusing targets as Kaguya well guess who is not at the top of my list. But this is a sidebar since the Sakura that is relevant at this point can get blitzed by Sauce. So Sasori is struggling with Sakura at this point cant keep up with a Sauce who is weaker then a version of Sasuke who couldnt keep track of Ei when he was packing MS...and I am suppose to believe that Sasori is landing anything on Ei?

Naruto isnt Dragonballz where moves are basically only cosmetically different for the most part and raw power is all that matters...Naruto sure prioritizes certain stats: speed, stamina, hax and defense/regen. But matchups still vary greatly and Ei is basically one of the hardest counters to Sasori outside of Samahada that its not just straight OP. I mean Kishi even says it himself in the manga puppet fighters suck against strong close range fighters which is precisely what Ei excels at.


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 13, 2016)

its cognitive dissonance, from how poorly he was written, that makes him seem _underrated at times_. but he is clearly OP

he is obviously not _overrated_


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 13, 2016)

No. He is underrated.


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## Matty (Mar 8, 2016)

He's UNDERRATED!!!! LOCK THREAD MODS!!!!

I don't want to ever hear this man's name again


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 8, 2016)

Hes so underrated on this forum its not even funny how is this a thread


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## Matty (Mar 8, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> Hes so underrated on this forum its not even funny how is this a thread



Because some people don't like him. Then Turrin kind of overrated him and everyone went at him. I just want his level to be set... He's mid kage. He is a serious threat to most people, but the high tiers and super speedsters pretty much kick his ass. 

I think his intelligence and well roundedness as a shinobi are highly underrated. Butttt a guy rocking a sasori set probably would say these things


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2016)

Yh mid kage sounds about right 

But then the likes of onoki and A can neg diff him hence people not rating him highly 

He the lowest of the mid 

Too much of a glass canon


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## Nikushimi (Mar 9, 2016)

Konan is just all-around garbage tier compared to Sasori, even if her abilities could potentially make her a difficult opponent for him specifically. She got one-shotted by J-Man while Sasori was considered a legitimate threat by Orochimaru. They are on different levels, regardless of how they compare to each other...though I'd back Sasori in that fight anyday. Flamethrowers > paper.

Deidara already admitted himself that Sasori's probably the stronger of the two, so that's canon. Both can fly, and Sasori compensates for lack of firepower with poison and sheer volume of offense...and is generally well-rounded.


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## Skaddix (Mar 9, 2016)

Eh sure Konan was bad but certain characters just have hard counters.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 9, 2016)

I have always been on the fence of where to place Sasori among the Akatsuki. If you simply look at his techniques and hype he certainly is up there however his feats say otherwise. 

Killed the strongest Kazekage - Impressive feat just by the statement but how did he accomplish this? Poison? Sneak attack? straight up battle?

Deidara admitted Sasori was the stronger of the two - Feat wise I feel Deidara has the slight edge

Wiped out an entire country - Impressive feat once again just by the statement however what country? Who was in it? were they all fodders? Many shinobi can accomplish this feat

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Kisame
Sasori/kakazu/Deidara
Konan
Hidan


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## ~M~ (Mar 9, 2016)

Sasori is just below sanin, teetering between mid and high kage. It's funny how low he is on some lists. But oh well the thread has already reached a conclusion, he's underrated


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 9, 2016)

After thinking about it for a while, I will say that he has an obvious weakness against ninjutsu users which most people tend to overlook against him. I don't think he's underrated but if matched against heavy ninjutsu users (e.g. Kakashi, Jiraiya, Asuma, Mei, Zabuza, Gaara, Kisame and etc.) I don't really see him winning those fights whatsoever.


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## Matty (Mar 9, 2016)

Did you really just say he loses to asuma and Zabuza? He beats them both at the same time


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 9, 2016)

Nah, I didn't mean it like that, I mean to say that they have a tactical advantage over Sasori (in terms of ninjutsu) Asuma - wind techniques and Zabuza - water/mist techniques


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## Matty (Mar 9, 2016)

Haha I hastily made that thread then


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 10, 2016)

Matty said:


> Because some people don't like him. Then Turrin kind of overrated him and everyone went at him. I just want his level to be set... He's mid kage. He is a serious threat to most people, but the high tiers and super speedsters pretty much kick his ass.
> 
> I think his intelligence and well roundedness as a shinobi are highly underrated. Butttt a guy rocking a sasori set probably would say these things



Where did Turrin overrate him, I bet he didnt but made people realize how strong sasori really is. He slightly above mid kage level and with the right match ups can beat people stronger than him. Top tiers beat him thats a given

He has high intelligence and tactics its just kishi made him look weak and people ignore the important details regarding his attacks so everyone thinks hes weak.



Ryuzaki said:


> Nah, I didn't mean it like that, I mean to say that they have a tactical advantage over Sasori (in terms of ninjutsu) Asuma - wind techniques and Zabuza - water/mist techniques



they get ripped apart no difficulty. 3rd kazekage would tear them up they dont have the speed to compete against it in close combat


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## Skaddix (Mar 10, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> After thinking about it for a while, I will say that he has an obvious weakness against ninjutsu users which most people tend to overlook against him. I don't think he's underrated but if matched against heavy ninjutsu users (e.g. Kakashi, Jiraiya, Asuma, Mei, Zabuza, Gaara, Kisame and etc.) I don't really see him winning those fights whatsoever.



Really I say his hard counter is more what all Puppet Users suck against strong physical fighters so Raikages, Lee, Gai, Naruto, Kirabi, etc.

Honestly half your list is problematic not because of  their heavy ninjutsu skills but because they can probably cut his chakra strings ie Kakashi, Asuma, Zabuza and Kisame (well actually its more absorbtion but basically the same). Although I think the 3rd Kazekage summons would still let him skewer  Zabuza and Asuma despite that.  Of course if he poisons them then he wins except Kisame (Samehada can probably just heal him). 

I dont think he is especially weak against ninjutsu users becaues he also wants a ranged fight.


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