# Hit vs TTGL



## ogreigniz (Apr 23, 2016)

Can Hit stomp TTGL? (the mecha)


Discuss


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## Zaru (Apr 23, 2016)

What, which one?


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 23, 2016)

ogreigniz said:


> Can Hit stomp TTGL? (the mecha)
> 
> 
> Discuss


Depends on how you take TTGL taking the Infinity Big Bang Storm.

It's multi-galaxy+++ at the absolute minimum but considering how broken Spiral Power is, I wouldn't be surprised if it went all the way up to outright universe level.


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## ogreigniz (Apr 23, 2016)

I said TTGL (the mecha = the strongest)

I think it's obvious


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## ogreigniz (Apr 23, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Depends on how you take TTGL taking the Infinity Big Bang Storm.
> 
> It's multi-galaxy+++ at the absolute minimum but considering how broken Spiral Power is, I wouldn't be surprised if it went all the way up to outright universe level.



SSJ Goku is at least multi galaxy level+ as well (minimum)/possibly around universe level and we all know that, now Hit fights with SSJB Kaioken x10 Goku who is much stronger than SSJ Goku, so, in firepower and durability, Hit has nothing to be afraid of, speaking of speed both of them are at MFTL+ levels (but who is faster?)

To summarize: speed, deadly accurate attacks and hax will play a major role in this battle


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## Iwandesu (Apr 23, 2016)

Gosh this is actually pretty neat on the pc


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 23, 2016)

ogreigniz said:


> SSJ Goku is at least multi galaxy level+ as well (minimum)/possibly around universe level and we all know that, now Hit fights with SSJB Kaioken x10 Goku who is much stronger than SSJ Goku, so, in firepower and durability, Hit has nothing to be afraid of, speaking of speed both of them are at MFTL+ levels (but who is faster?)
> 
> To summarize: speed, deadly accurate attacks and hax will play a major role in this battle



Yeah, speed's still a clusterfuck. I keep hearing trillions to quadrillions of times FTL but I dunno which is the legit one for Hit.

TTGL was calc'd to be at 26 quadrillion times FTL back then.

Hax is something TTGL has in abundance what with the probability manipulation, breaking space-time with an uppercut (Slayer would be so proud), and attacking through multiple points in time. Since its weaker forms did those, those scale to TTGL as well.

I wonder if TTGL can also convert Hit's attacks into Spiral Energy by sacrificing Lordgenome again like it did with the Infinity Big Bang Storm, though. That might give it an edge over Hit.


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## ogreigniz (Apr 23, 2016)

Hit must show more of his power but still, he could just time skip and knock out Simon 

TTGL has superior hax than Super Galaxy GL, i know, it's obvious


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 23, 2016)

ogreigniz said:


> Hit must show more of his power but still, he could just time skip and knock out Simon
> 
> TTGL has superior hax than Super Galaxy GL, i know, it's obvious


Hey, now. If this is Lagann-Hen Simon, then he can give Hit a good fight HtH. You remember how the final battle there ended.


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## ogreigniz (Apr 23, 2016)

Simon stomping the shit out of Anti Spiral in a brutal hth battle, goddamn


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## Montanz (Apr 23, 2016)

Surface area and stuff like that comes into play when talking about characters that are incredibly different in size.

While TTGL is as strong as Hit in raw power, its power is offset by its enormous size. HtH would be useless unless TTGL can concentrate all that striking power in a small area.

Probability manipulation may help with that issue but apparently it's restricted to its missiles so...

TTGL does have the ability to strike in the near past and future since  Galaxy Lagann has it, but I don't think It gives him a decisive advantage, as they're just basically free shots with a set DC that Hit could tank. They also take time to be pulled off.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 23, 2016)

ogreigniz said:


> Simon stomping the shit out of Anti Spiral in a brutal hth battle, goddamn


Indeed. Simon was just

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blocky (Apr 23, 2016)

Hit might win if he used his full power as well


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## Tacocat (Apr 23, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> Gosh this is actually pretty neat on the pc


Lynch iwan.


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## Tacocat (Apr 23, 2016)

Anyway, how fast are DBS characters now? TTGL could always just probability manipulate Hit so none of his attacks...hit. It has also dealt with energy so immense that it drawrfed the mass energy of the observable universe; we only consider it multi-galaxy level because we have nothing insane enough to categorize it under.

Reactions: Dumb 1


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## Iwandesu (Apr 24, 2016)

Well hit is on quadrillions iirc
Doubt he is dodging the gurren laggan undodgeble punches,tho


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## SF latif (Apr 24, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> Well hit is on quadrillions iirc
> Doubt he is dodging the gurren laggan undodgeble punches,tho


beerus and whis were calcu at low quardillion. i think we should go with High trillions for hit


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> Well hit is on quadrillions iirc
> Doubt he is dodging the gurren laggan undodgeble punches,tho



Montanz mentioned the probability manipulation is limited to TTGL's missiles. Not sure if that's true but if it is I'd imagine TTGL's punches wouldn't be all that undodgeable. 

I think Hit has a solid chance of winning this.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Montanz mentioned the probability manipulation is limited to TTGL's missiles. Not sure if that's true but if it is I'd imagine TTGL's punches wouldn't be all that undodgeable.
> 
> I think Hit has a solid chance of winning this.


It's an ability of Spiral Power. Don't be stupid now.


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> It's an ability of Spiral Power. Don't be stupid now.



Eh. The probability manipulation's variety of uses could be limited by the characters not thinking of using it certain ways. Was it ever shown being used defensively for instance?


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Ignoring the fact that that's pretty asinine, what's stopping TTGL from throwing a tenagigaFoe missile at Hit's face and reducing its chances of missing to 0%?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> Ignoring the fact that that's pretty asinine, what's stopping TTGL from throwing a tenagigaFoe missile at Hit's face and reducing its chances of missing to 0%?



Hit probably could destroy/counter it with a ki attack of similar power. Or just let it hit. He could probably could survive a decent amount of attacks on that level.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> Ignoring the fact that that's pretty asinine, what's stopping TTGL from throwing a tenagigaFoe missile at Hit's face and reducing its chances of missing to 0%?


Absolutely fuck-all.

This is a good reason why Dragon Ball, for all its upgrades to firepower, still can't take anything in the same class that's hax'd out.

Also, Tacocat: would you say that Kittan's mission succeeded thanks to probability manipulation? Lordgenome said that it had a "theoretical 0% chance of succeeding" but Kittan's newly-awakened Spiral Power told that number to fuck off.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Hit probably could destroy/counter it with a ki attack of similar power. Or just let it hit. He could probably could survive a decent amount of attacks on that level.


Show me a feat of anyone in Dragon Ball taking something that energetic. Or creating something that energetic, for that matter.



NightmareCinema said:


> Also, Tacocat: would you say that Kittan's mission succeeded thanks to probability manipulation? Lordgenome said that it had a "theoretical 0% chance of succeeding" but Kittan's newly-awakened Spiral Power told that number to fuck off.


I actually just opened up that episode to go over it, lol. Team Dai-Gurren breaking out of the Anti-Spiral's maze might count, too.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> I actually just opened up that episode to go over it, lol. Team Dai-Gurren breaking out of the Anti-Spiral's maze might count, too.



Yeah, Simon's speech to the Anti-Spiral after they broke out of the maze basically said "Fuck you, we do what we want despite it being supposedly 'impossible'." It definitely counts.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 24, 2016)

I always thought king kitan was the most blatantly example of probability manipulation on the arc


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> Show me a feat of anyone in Dragon Ball taking something that energetic. Or creating something that energetic, for that matter.
> 
> 
> I actually just opened up that episode to go over it, lol. Team Dai-Gurren breaking out of the Anti-Spiral's maze might count, too.



That energetic? I'm not quite sure I follow. In pure DC which I saw was already discussed earlier in this thread Hit is high multi-Galaxy to possibly universal.

For the instances that you and NC are discussing whether or not they're showings of probability manipulation I wouldn't consider either of them probability manipulation since lord Genomme's prediction/calculation probably didn't account for Kittan boosting his regular mech to be more durable than the larger mech it was inside of and the team getting out of the maze was them overcoming whatever weird mindfuck technique anti-spiral had used on them.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

I don't think you understand what 0% probability means. You literally cannot think of a scenario in which it could have happened. Kittan still made it happen. That is probability manipulation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> *That energetic? I'm not quite sure I follow. In pure DC which I saw was already discussed earlier in this thread Hit is high multi-Galaxy to possibly universal.*
> 
> For the instances that you and NC are discussing whether or not they're showings of probability manipulation I wouldn't consider either of them probability manipulation since lord Genomme's prediction/calculation probably didn't account for Kittan boosting his regular mech to be more durable than the larger mech it was inside of and the team getting out of the maze was them overcoming whatever weird mindfuck technique anti-spiral had used on them.



Because of the fact that the universes in Dragon Ball have borders or some shit, they're limited to "just" the mass-energy observable universe or some shit. That's what I read from the DBS Feats Thread, anyway. They can deal with arguing that.

On the other hand, Gurren Lagann doesn't have that limit. Refer to Taco's earlier post when he said that the energy exerted by LordGenome when he converted the Infinity Big Bang Storm into Spiral Energy dwarfed the mass-energy of the observable universe.


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> I don't think you understand what 0% probability means. You literally cannot think of a scenario in which it could have happened. Kittan still made it happen. That is probability manipulation.



It could be that Lord Genomme simply could not have predicted Kittan's willpower boosting his spiral power that much. Everyone was astounded when the smaller mech Kittan was piloting kept going after the bigger mech it was inside of was destroyed.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Oh yeah, forgot to respond to the other part of your post, Xenos5.

You need to prove that Hit can survive triple digit tenagigaFoe of energy, because this is the amount of energy TTGL dicks around with. "Multi-galaxy to maybe universal" doesn't mean anything because this amount of energy dwarfs the mass-energy of the observable universe. The baseline for multi-galaxy level is an infinitesimal fraction of this amount of energy. If he straight up destroyed a universe, everyone would be saying he was straight up universal. Give me energy values.



xenos5 said:


> It could be that Lord Genomme simply could not have predicted Kittan's willpower boosting his spiral power that much. Everyone was astounded when the smaller mech Kittan was piloting kept going after the bigger mech it was inside of was destroyed.


Again, you're not understanding 0% probability.


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Because of the fact that the universes in Dragon Ball have borders or some shit, they're limited to "just" the mass-energy observable universe or some shit. That's what I read from the DBS Feats Thread, anyway. They can deal with arguing that.
> 
> On the other hand, Gurren Lagann doesn't have that limit. Refer to Taco's earlier post when he said that the energy exerted by LordGenome when he converted the Infinity Big Bang Storm into Spiral Energy dwarfed the mass-energy of the observable universe.



I don't recall any statements about energy that dwarfs the mass-energy of the universe in the series. Perhaps you or Tacocat could quote the statement for that? I'd appreciate it.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

^


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> Again, you're not understanding 0% probability.



Doesn't this assume Lord Genomme's calculations are absolute? If he doesn't account for something and that drastically changes the result that isn't probability manipulation.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

It's from a personal calc of Taco's.

Seriously, do you read the anything we post at all?

And 0% probability means IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE OF HAPPENING AT ALL. The probability of Kittan's mission succeeding was 0%. LordGenome calculated it as such. Spiral Power told that number to fuck off because PROBABILITY MANIPULATION.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

You acknowledge that these mechs have probability manipulation but then say that Lordgenome, Chou-Ginga Gurren Lagann's computer, can't properly measure probability?

It's not a matter of Lordgenome not accounting for a scenario, it's a matter of Kittan manipulating the success rate of that scenario.

On a side-note, Chou-Ginga Gurren Lagann's computers can process in planck units


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> It's from a personal calc of Taco's.
> 
> Seriously, do you read the anything we post at all?
> 
> And 0% probability means IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE OF HAPPENING AT ALL. The probability of Kittan's mission succeeding was 0%. LordGenome calculated it as such. Spiral Power told that number to fuck off because PROBABILITY MANIPULATION.



Lord Genomme may be a genius but his calculations aren't him literally seeing the future. He didn't have complete data so the calculation failed. He could not concieve of Kittan's spiral power reaching that level.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

God damn it, this is like talking to a brick wall...


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

You all forgetting Goku had a 10% chance of pulling SSB kaioken, since he pulled it that totally means he has probability manipulation.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Lord Genomme may be a genius but his calculations aren't him literally seeing the future. He didn't have complete data so the calculation failed. He could not concieve of Kittan's spiral power reaching that level.


No, it _couldn't_ reach that level. But it did. You're thinking of Lordgenome as some RL scientist. He is the computer for a probability-manipulating mech.


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> You acknowledge that these mechs have probability manipulation but then say that Lordgenome, Chou-Ginga Gurren Lagann's computer, can't properly measure probability?
> 
> It's not a matter of Lordgenome not accounting for a scenario, it's a matter of Kittan manipulating the success rate of that scenario.
> 
> On a side-note, Chou-Ginga Gurren Lagann's computers can process in planck units



the durability of Kittan's mech being boosted by a large boost in spiral power just makes much more sense to me than probability manipulation boosting its durability. We see spirals in his eyes symbolizing the boost. And Boosts in willpower equaling boosts in spiral power have been shown multiple times in the series.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

Montanz said:


> You all forgetting Goku had a 10% chance of pulling SSB kaioken, since he pulled it that totally means he has probability manipulation.


...
Wow. This is one of the worst fucking things I've ever had the displeasure of reading.
Thank you for proving your lack of knowledge on this topic.

Probability manipulation: CHANGING THE OUTCOME BY YOUR OWN WILL. That's what Kittan did when he went to his death in order to destroy the Death Spiral Machine. LordGenome calculated the probability of the mission succeeding to be absolutely 0%. Nothing Kittan did could have possibly made the mission succeed. But he did. So he changed the probability of that shit succeeding from 0% to 100%.

What Goku did: bank on that 10% chance. HE. DIDN'T. MANIPULATE. PROBABILITY. That 10% chance remained 10%. He didn't make it a 100% chance. He got fucking lucky.


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> ^



I think that's a lot more power than the attack was implied to have in the series. Even the non canon movie that seemed to be made with the intention of having a grander scale didn't seem to go much further than universal with that final drill clash sucking up a bunch of galaxies. 

Is there any statement in the series or visual that corroborates with that level of power?


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## 3DSSD (Apr 24, 2016)

TTGL has a weapon called "probability alteration missile."

Why TTGL used the missiles to hit anti spiral?

If they can manipulate probability, why they didn't apply it to their casual punches?


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> the durability of Kittan's mech being boosted by a large boost in spiral power just makes much more sense to me than probability manipulation boosting its durability. We see spirals in his eyes symbolizing the boost. And Boosts in willpower equaling boosts in spiral power have been shown multiple times in the series.


You're still not getting it. Probability manipulation didn't give him a power boost. Spiral power gave him a power boost when there was 0% chance that he could generate the spiral power necessary in a space that converted spiral power to mass where that space was most dense.



xenos5 said:


> I think that's a lot more power than the attack was implied to have in the series. Even the non canon movie that seemed to be made with the intention of having a grander scale didn't seem to go much further than universal with that final drill clash sucking up a bunch of galaxies.
> 
> Is there any statement in the series or visual that corroborates with that level of power?


Those are the statements. Those are the visuals.

Did you not see the final scene of the movie? They didn't just suck up galaxies, they sucked up _everything_. They did destroy the universe. Not to mention, the Anti-Spiral literally created a universe even in the canon. So...yeah, the series does kind of corroborate that level of power.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

3DSSD said:


> TTGL has a weapon called "probability alteration missile."
> 
> Why TTGL used the missiles to hit anti spiral?
> 
> If they can manipulate probability, why they didn't apply it to their casual punches?


PIS, for one.

The Anti-Spiral could easily counter them being the other. That is until they got a Spiral Power boost and started to land solid hits even without the Probability Altering Missiles.

Seriously, are you guys really going to downplay TTGL's hax like this? It's clear-cut in the series. Deal with it.


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> You're still not getting it. Probability manipulation didn't give him a power boost. Spiral power gave him a power boost when there was 0% chance that he could generate the spiral power necessary in a space that converted spiral power to mass where that space was most dense.



He was boosted by spiral power more than what was thought to be possible then. When the team didn't even start using probability manipulation until the the mech had transformed into Super Galaxy Gurren Laggan and them doing it through intense calculations what sense does it make for Kittan to be able to do it without calculations and without even having knowledge of what he was doing while he was doing it?



			
				Tacocat said:
			
		

> Those are the statements. Those are the visuals.
> 
> Did you not see the final scene of the movie? They didn't just suck up galaxies, they sucked up _everything_. They did destroy the universe. Not to mention, the Anti-Spiral literally created a universe even in the canon. So...yeah, the series does kind of corroborate that level of power.



Alright. I'll concede on this issue then. With Hit losing out on firepower/durability to such a degree he loses. Thanks for explaining all this. Guess the GL verse was just more powerful than I thought.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

3DSSD said:


> TTGL has a weapon called "probability alteration missile."
> 
> Why TTGL used the missiles to hit anti spiral?
> 
> If they can manipulate probability, why they didn't apply it to their casual punches?


The Anti-Spiral have probability manipulation as well.

The missiles in question are Spiral Power generated by Simon, manipulated freely by Simon. And Leeron even states that the computer is the one that changes the probability that they'll hit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2016)

A few notes, anti spiral was doing the reality manipulation all the time, he said that the universe was in his complete control and the probability of the TTGL of winning was 0, then they changed it.
For the infinity big bang storm packing more energy we have to say that the universe were they were fighting seems to have galaxies bigger than ours (we can say that just comparing them to the TTGL) and maybe that universe is slightly bigger, then calc like that gives those numbers. And if we are going by feats showed... When hit showed attack with a range and AoE big enough to destroy all the TTGL? When he showed to even see something that far away from him?



Montanz said:


> You all forgetting Goku had a 10% chance of pulling SSB kaioken, since he pulled it that totally means he has probability manipulation.


No, it means that if goku try to fight the TTGL/anti spiral he would die just only trying doing the kaioken


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Because of the fact that the universes in Dragon Ball have borders or some shit, they're limited to "just" the mass-energy observable universe or some shit. That's what I read from the DBS Feats Thread, anyway. They can deal with arguing that.



No one bothers to calculate universe level feats simply because people don't know how large an universe actually really is within an specific series so instead of trying to pull out arbitrary numbers out of their ass they just say it's Multi-galaxy/Universal and call it a day.

That aside, lowballing how much energy it takes to destroy an observable universe with an omnidirectional explosion is perfectly doable 

Surface area of the universe = 4pi*(4.4e26)^2 = 2.43e54 m^2
Cross sectional area of the sun = pi*R^2= 1.51e12 m^2
Then you divide Universe/Sun =1.60e42
And multiply by its GBE= 1.0992e84 joules

This was done using the same method people use here to calculate the energy used to destroy the solar system

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> He was boosted by spiral power more than what was thought to be possible then. When the team didn't even start using probability manipulation until the the mech had transformed into Super Galaxy Gurren Laggan and them doing it through intense calculations what sense does it make for Kittan to be able to do it without calculations and without even having knowledge of what he was doing while he was doing it?


That's the problem; you're trying to make sense of it, but probability manipulation inherently doesn't make sense.

Although, that situation isn't congruent with Kittan's; the Ashtanga were also manipulating probability. The calculations Lordgenome was running were in regards to the changes the Ashtanga were making to probability. This allowed him to adjust probability accordingly.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

So did Hit destroy everything in a universe?


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> So did Hit destroy everything in a universe?



He trades blows with a Goku who is at least 10x stronger than the time he was about to do it t.
powerscaling yadda yadda.

If you're trying to suggest Goku or Bills can't destroy the universe you should make a different thread for that shitstorm.


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

Just a quick question. How does probability manipulation work if you don't know the probability of the situation its being used on?

I always thought probability manipulation , without specifics, was just disregarded as plot armor. Especially when used in fiction where impossible (0/1) events occur all the time.  Unless plot armor is not disregarded on this site.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Montanz said:


> He trades blows with a Goku who is at least 10x stronger than the time he was about to do it t.
> powerscaling yadda yadda.
> 
> If you're trying to suggest Goku or Bills can't destroy the universe you should make a different thread for that shitstorm.


I'm not suggesting anything; I'm asking for a feat. That's...literally all I've been asking this entire thread.


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## xenos5 (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> That's the problem; you're trying to make sense of it, but probability manipulation inherently doesn't make sense.
> 
> Although, that situation isn't congruent with Kittan's; the Ashtanga were also manipulating probability. The calculations Lordgenome was running were in regards to the changes the Ashtanga were making to probability. This allowed him to adjust probability accordingly.



with this rebuttal you've addressed my last remaining concern. Hit conclusively loses this.

Had a fun debate with you man


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Lord Genomme may be a genius but his calculations aren't him literally seeing the future. He didn't have complete data so the calculation failed. He could not concieve of Kittan's spiral power reaching that level.


probability manipulation is one of the staples of spiral power, they did it again later on by altering the probability of their missiles damaging the anti spiral
there is no other way to interpret spiral power except that it literally does the impossible


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> I'm not suggesting anything; I'm asking for a feat. That's...literally all I've been asking this entire thread.



Powerscaling is a perfectly valid method to gauge the powers of Characters who lack showings of their own.

I'm not sure what you're asking for other than the original feat in the Goku vs Bills fight.
Or are you asking about showings of Hit having that range?

Technically he doesn't and there is more to suggest the AoE for his raw destructive capacity is limited to to HtH combat, reason for my original argument about surface area being a huge issue in this match.


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## Katsuargi (Apr 24, 2016)

Lets see.

I've got SSjB KK*10 Goku chilling around 3.71* 10^95, which Hit would scale to.
1 Foe = 10^44
Divide, and: 
SSjB KK*10 Goku = 3.71e+51 Foe.

Anti-Spiral: Anti-Spiral's Infinity Big Bang Storm: 3.775 tenapetaFoe (TTGL)
Goku / Hit: 3.71 tenazetaFoe

Goku / Hit: 6~ orders of magnitude > Anti-spiral, unless I messed up my math here.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> Just a quick question. How does probability manipulation work if you don't know the probability of the situation its being used on?
> 
> I always thought probability manipulation , without specifics, was just disregarded as plot armor. Especially when used in fiction where impossible (0/1) events occur all the time.  Unless plot armor is not disregarded on this site.


The term "impossible" is often used flippantly in fiction, so we often disregard it. We, however, know the probability of the events in question because they are stated to be 0% (at least on one occasion). This is also often treated with skepticism, but in TTGL's case the characters are stated to be probability manipulators, and that percentage is provided by a supercomputer who is seen manipulating probability.

And it wouldn't be correct to call it plot armor in the context that the plot is protecting the characters in question. Rather, the characters could be said to be actively cloaking themselves in plot armor. Probability manipulation is a facet of reality warping; a healthy dose of skepticism is expected, but writing it off in its entirety would be to strip a character of a powerful weapon.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Powerscaling is a perfectly valid method to gauge the powers of Characters who lack showings of their own.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're asking for other than the original feat in the Goku vs Bills fight.
> Or are you asking about showings of Hit having that range?
> ...


Yes, I'm well aware of the implications of powerscaling. A feat he powerscales to would do just fine.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Katsuargi said:


> Lets see.
> 
> I've got SSjB KK*10 Goku chilling around 3.71* 10^95, which Hit would scale to.
> 1 Foe = 10^44
> ...


Where on earth did you get those multipliers?


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

Really now?
This is not the only evidence to suggest Goku and Bills are physical universe busters, there are more feats of it in this same fight (namely the beam clash which I can't find in youtube) and  there are also tons of reliable statements from the narrator and several characters.


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

Katsuargi said:


> Lets see.
> 
> I've got SSjB KK*10 Goku chilling around 3.71* 10^95, which Hit would scale to.
> 1 Foe = 10^44
> ...



I'm assuming you used your measures from the Cosmology thread, b̶u̶t̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶i̶e̶l̶d̶ ̶(̶G̶B̶E̶?̶)̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶n̶u̶m̶b̶e̶r̶s̶?̶
Disregard that, I didn't read.


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> The term "impossible" is often used flippantly in fiction, so we often disregard it. We, however, know the probability of the events in question because they are stated to be 0% (at least on one occasion). This is also often treated with skepticism, but in TTGL's case the characters are stated to be probability manipulators, and that percentage is provided by a supercomputer who is seen manipulating probability.
> 
> And it wouldn't be correct to call it plot armor in the context that the plot is protecting the characters in question. Rather, the characters could be said to be actively cloaking themselves in plot armor. Probability manipulation is a facet of reality warping; a healthy dose of skepticism is expected, but writing it off in its entirety would be to strip a character of a powerful weapon.


This raises a fundamental question in terms of probability manipulation then.

If me punching the moon into dust in 1 punch (a fictional event) is a 150000000001/1 (odds are insanely fictional since the event is insanely fictional). What good is probability without specifics? To what degree are you lessening these odds?

This power is excellent if the writer is thinking of ways to have the hero avoid failure, but how can this be applied, successfully, outside the story without data? Now for the sake of...I don't really know...if this site is just making probability manipulation  the same as causality manipulation...then okay. Those are the rules.


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## Katsuargi (Apr 24, 2016)

Montanz said:


> I'm assuming you used your measures from the Cosmology thread,
> but what yield (GBE?) did you use to get those numbers?



Inverse square and Kaioshin Kai's GBE.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2016)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> This raises a fundamental question in terms of probability manipulation then.
> 
> If me punching the moon into dust in 1 punch (a fictional event) is a 150000000001/1 (odds are insanely fictional since the event is insanely fictional). What good is probability without specifics? To what degree are you lessening these odds?
> 
> This power is excellent if the writer is thinking of ways to have the hero avoid failure, but how can this be applied, successfully, outside the story without data?


Well, we can say that punching the moon into dust is a 0% possibility for you, just like the kittan feats or the others with 0% possibility. They can raise the possibility even from something like that. It's even more difficult than winning the lottery like ten times in a row

I think that the TTGL calc is a very low estimation, because of their size normally that would be enough and it's more like a funny curiosity to look at. Normally you can easily say if someone is stronger or not. I don't think there's even a calc for the descruction of the STTGL drill, and the infinity big bang storm is just for the lasengan destruction I think


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Really now?
> This is not the only evidence to suggest Goku and Bills are physical universe busters, there are more feats of it in this same fight (namely the beam clash which I can't find in youtube) and  there are also tons of reliable statements from the narrator and several characters.


You...act like I should have known this. I don't watch Dragon Ball Super. This is why I asked for the feat.

So the argument is that Hit packs enough punch to harm TTGL due to surface area, correct? How does he get around TTGL's probability manipulation? And after that, how does he get around TTGL's regen factor? And beyond that, does he have the means to deal with BFR?

In case you'll assume otherwise again, no, those aren't loaded questions.


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> Well, we can say that punching the moon into dust is a 0% possibility for you, just like the kittan feats or the others with 0% possibility. They can raise the possibility even from something like that. It's even more difficult than winning the lottery like ten times in a row
> 
> I think that the TTGL calc is a very low estimation, because of their size normally that would be enough and it's more like a funny curiosity to look at. Normally you can easily say if someone is stronger or not. I don't think there's even a calc for the descruction of the STTGL drill, and the infinity big bang storm is just for the lasengan destruction I think


Boy, if the probability of something is 0% it's going to be literally beyond infinitely hard to get it to 1%.

I definitely have to re-watch some Gurren because I don't remember if their were any specifics given on the probability manipulation.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2016)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> Boy, if the probability of something is 0% it's going to be literally beyond infinitely hard to get it to 1%.
> 
> I definitely have to re-watch some Gurren because I don't remember if they were any specifics given on the probability manipulation.


That's what I'm saying.
For the beerus/goku, isn't that feat of the clashing of those they combinate power? And it says that they would have died for that, isn't Beerus stronger than Hoku and Hit?


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Actually, Elder Kai says the wave gets _more_ destructive as the wave propagates, doesn't he? So why are you guys using inverse-square law?


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## God Movement (Apr 24, 2016)

There was an explosion feat where an explosion was going to wipe out the entire universe. So that can just as easily be used.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> This raises a fundamental question in terms of probability manipulation then.
> 
> If me punching the moon into dust in 1 punch (a fictional event) is a 150000000001/1 (odds are insanely fictional since the event is insanely fictional). What good is probability without specifics? To what degree are you lessening these odds?
> 
> This power is excellent if the writer is thinking of ways to have the hero avoid failure, but how can this be applied, successfully, outside the story without data? Now for the sake of...I don't really know...if this site is just making probability manipulation  the same as causality manipulation...then okay. Those are the rules.


I'm not lessening them; I'm ignoring them. Data is unnecessary; all you need to know is that they made something happen which was literally impossible.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

God Movement said:


> There was an explosion feat where an explosion was going to wipe out the entire universe. So that can just as easily be used.


That's fine. Can you link that instead?


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## Katsuargi (Apr 24, 2016)

If I recall correctly, Goku was somehow cancelling out the energy of the strikes. He hadn't perfected the technique until after the first two, so they got more destructive the further out they got.

As to the explosion, it was a beam clash that was going to vape the universe. Should be easy enough for someone to snag.


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

Tacocat said:


> I'm not lessening them; I'm ignoring them. Data is unnecessary; all you need to know is* that they made something happen which was literally impossible.*


That is not probability manipulation, then. It doesn't even make mathematical sense, it's balderdash. What you are describing is causality manipulation.

If you can make whatever event you want to happen, happen; that's causality manipulation/omnipotence. That character is literally unbeatable. There is nothing it can't do.


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> That is not probability manipulation, then. That's causality.
> 
> If you can make whatever event you want to happen, happen; that's causality manipulation/omnipotence. That characters is literally unbeatable.


Okay, causality manipulation, then.

They're not omnipotent--at least, not in this setting--because assuming as much would be a no-limits fallacy. We'll even impose limits on a fiction whose entire premise is to fuck limits in the ear because otherwise we'd surrender any modicum of objectivity.

Also consider that characters from that verse can overcome those hax with those same hax, just with a little more shonen feelings sprinkled on top. "My omnipotence>your omnipotence because I said so" isn't quite conducive to the idea of omnipotence. Showings are everything, really.

Or I'm wrong. It might be more likely that when the Ashtanga made the probability that they'd be hit 0%, Team Dai-Gurren replied with, "No, fuck you, it's 100%," rather than, "It'll hit you regardless of the fact that the probability is 0%." The result is the same as far as the OBD is concerned, I suppose, but that's going over my head.



God Movement said:


> First 10 or so minutes


Sure, looks fine to me.


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

_How does he get around TTGL's probability manipulation?_
Even if he can't get around it all TTGL has shown to be able to do with it is ensure his attacks land, that's certainly not a decisive factor when your attacks can't outright overcome the durability of the characters you're aiming at.

TTGL didn't show the ability to alter someone's probability other than his own and saying he could use it for and against everything would be arguing on a NLF.

If the power is absolute and can make something always happen 100% of the time, then why is the spiral nemesis a problem in the first place?

Saying that the reason their power is not absolute is because other people have the same power is circular logic.

There is also the fact that probability works based on the coincidence of several factors allowing scenarios to happen in the first place,
How likely is that TTGL can manage to Hit something that's quintillions of times smaller and flies around as fast as he can move?
How can TTGL factor in something that from its perspective doesn't exist? (timefreeze in this instance)

What's the most unlikely scenario that they have caused to happen?

How can that be applied in a fight without coming across as a blatant NLF?

_how does he get around TTGL's regen factor?_
He could attack the source of power that allows it to regen, the pilots.

_does he have the means to deal with BFR?_
He certainly does not assuming he gets BFR'd in the first place.
As I said timestop brings and unknown factor that would make probability calculations not work at all in the first place.




Tacocat said:


> Actually, Elder Kai says the wave gets _more_ destructive as the wave propagates, doesn't he? So why are you guys using inverse-square law?



8:20 
Goku was cancelling the energy so the unvierse wouldn't go boom and the resulting effect was that.

This point has already been adressed in well over a thousand posts in their respective threads, as I said before you shoud start another thread for thread for that shitstorm or read those threads because at this point you'd have a hard time finding anyone willing to go through the same old tired arguments.


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2016)

Montanz said:


> _How does he get around TTGL's probability manipulation?_
> Even if he can't get around it all TTGL has shown to be able to do with it is ensure his attacks land, that's certainly not a decisive factor when your attacks can't outright overcome the durability of the characters you're aiming at.
> 
> TTGL didn't show the ability to alter someone's probability other than his own and saying he could use it for and against everything would be arguing on a NLF.
> ...



They showed the ability to someone's probability. With the Ashtanga and Anti Spiral.
Spiral Nemesis is a problem because it's generated by their own power.
Can Hit teleport? And can he find someone in a space so big? And even with that the TTGL have shield for this things. They never showed problem watching/attacking things smaller than them. For example the Arc gurren lagann stopped the drill from some cm of Nia's neck. They can find and teleport to objects/people or attacks them even when they are using time manipulation.

Even Hit have similar problems.
Does he have range and AoE to challenge the TTGL? Because with concentrate attack he won't win.
How far can he see? How far can he fight someone? Because between him and the TTGL there would be LY at minimum
His speed is for traveling or fighting?
Can he breath in space?
How can he bypass the TTGL's energy absorption?
What's his durability? In the video the said that destroying the universe would have killed Goku and Beerus.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

Bad Wolf said:


> They showed the ability to someone's probability. With the Ashtanga and Anti Spiral.
> Spiral Nemesis is a problem because it's generated by their own power.
> Can Hit teleport? And can he find someone in a space so big? And even with that the TTGL have shield for this things. They never showed problem watching/attacking things smaller than them. For example the Arc gurren lagann stopped the drill from some cm of Nia's neck. They can find and teleport to objects/people or attacks them even when they are using time manipulation.
> 
> ...



Hit's durability is at least multi-galaxy level+ just for taking hits from a Goku that was immensely superior to his old BoG self.

Hit has no way of bypassing TTGL's energy absorption. And before people call NLF on this, TTGL absorbed a literal Big Bang level attack.

Hit can survive in a vacuum easily. He stopped Frost from stealing the Box that he wanted as a prize by walking outside the dome and K.O.ing Frost.

No, Hit hasn't shown the ability to teleport. He's incredibly fast, though, but that's about it.

As for shit like AoE, how far can he see, etc., no idea about that. Powerscaling wise, he should have AoE but since he's an assassin, he relies more on vital point attacks.

As for his speed, should apply to both travel and combat since he's operating at levels beyond a hilariously casual Beerus.


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Hit's durability is at least multi-galaxy level+ just for taking hits from a Goku that was immensely superior to his old BoG self.
> 
> Hit has no way of bypassing TTGL's energy absorption. And before people call NLF on this, TTGL absorbed a literal Big Bang level attack.



It's arguable wether or not TTGL can easily make use of this ability, considering lord genome had to sacrifice himself for that to happen in the first place and its more of a last resort against a single big bang level attack rather than a passive defense against big bangs.



NightmareCinema said:


> Hit can survive in a vacuum easily. He stopped Frost from stealing the Box that he wanted as a prize by walking outside the dome and K.O.ing Frost.
> 
> No, Hit hasn't shown the ability to teleport. He's incredibly fast, though, but that's about it.
> 
> ...



I'll concede on the AoE thing, Hit hasn't demonstrated good range even though powerscaling suggests he should have it


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Even if he can't get around it all TTGL has shown to be able to do with it is ensure his attacks land, that's certainly not a decisive factor when your attacks can't outright overcome the durability of the characters you're aiming at.


True, which is why I've offered some means by which TTGL might be able to reach a win condition. Otherwise we might see a battle of attrition.



> TTGL didn't show the ability to alter someone's probability other than his own and saying he could use it for and against everything would be arguing on a NLF.


Even assuming that were the case, what would it change? TTGL can manipulate the probability of its evasion, as we've seen the Ashtanga do, effectively drawing the same result. Even the size difference becomes a non-issue because at the end of the series Simon's Spiral Power becomes so great even the smaller Gurren Lagann form-factors would scale to similar stats.



> If the power is absolute and can make something always happen 100% of the time, then why is the spiral nemesis a problem in the first place?


It's not? That's the point of the ending.



> Saying that the reason their power is not absolute is because other people have the same power is circular logic.


It's not logical, but it's still what happens. The point is moot.



> There is also the fact that probability works based on the coincidence of several factors allowing scenarios to happen in the first place,
> How likely is that TTGL can manage to Hit something that's quintillions of times smaller and flies around as fast as he can move?


I have a feeling targeting and destroying thousands upon thousands of Ashtanga hiding in a "multi-dimensional Schrodinger warp" while manipulating the probability that they can be targeted is a little more difficult than hitting a dude right in front of them, especially when they could track each body of the true Anti-Spiral individually when the true Anti-Spiral are all the size of normal humans.

That, and breaking down to Gurren Lagann is still an option, which pretty much eliminates the whole issue.



> What's the most unlikely scenario that they have caused to happen?


Um. One with a 0% chance to occur?



> How can that be applied in a fight without coming across as a blatant NLF?


Being broken as fuck isn't the same as NLF, if that's what you're getting at.

_



			how does he get around TTGL's regen factor?
		
Click to expand...

_


> He could attack the source of power that allows it to regen, the pilots.


A) You assume he knows this thing has pilots.
B) You assume he can locate the pilots.
C) You assume the pilots will do nothing to stop this.



> He certainly does not assuming he gets BFR'd in the first place.


So Team Dai-Gurren can't resort to BFR later in the match?



> As I said timestop brings and unknown factor that would make probability calculations not work at all in the first place.


Okay, then let's discuss Hit's time-stop. Does it have known limitations? If not, what are its best showings (relative duration, range, etc.)? Does he tend to use it immediately? Is it true, immediate time-stop or does it slow the opponent gradually?



> 8:20
> Goku was cancelling the energy so the unvierse wouldn't go boom and the resulting effect was that.
> 
> This point has already been adressed in well over a thousand posts in their respective threads, as I said before you shoud start another thread for thread for that shitstorm or read those threads because at this point you'd have a hard time finding anyone willing to go through the same old tired arguments.


It's not my job to know this. If you're going to use the feat as a tool for debate, it's your job to provide it upon request. I'm not starting a shitstorm over it, so creating a thread to ask for a link to a feat would be asinine. I argued nothing except that the inverse-square law doesn't apply to the original video you linked me, which is true. Moreover, I found the feat GM posted to be perfectly reasonable. You're making an issue where there isn't one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blocky (Apr 24, 2016)

Were going in circles, Are we?


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## Katsuargi (Apr 24, 2016)

Hit's time stop? No known limitations. Lasts .5 seconds as of last weeks episode (haven't see this weeks, yet).

From the DBS thread, can apparently stop time within stopped time. Used this on Goku, because Goku through the power of being Stonk has acquired anti-time stop powers, but apparently not time stop within a time stop powers.

Toriyama is weird, is what I'm saying.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tacocat (Apr 24, 2016)

One other thing I should address is that the whole surface area thing that has been a running thing against TTGL is probably nonsense anyway. We see that Gran-Zamboa has drill tips fine enough to be smaller even than Lagann, which isn't much larger than a fist relatively speaking. And that Lordgenome's drill was finer than the width of his head.

There's also still the fact that Lordgenome can perceive units of time as small as planck time.

That said, I really don't understand why we don't just label TTGL as universal when a) the Anti-Spiral created and sustained a universe which collapsed upon their death, and b) they literally state that Infinity Big Bang Storm is them creating a universe several times.



Katsuargi said:


> Hit's time stop? No known limitations. Lasts .5 seconds as of last weeks episode (haven't see this weeks, yet).
> 
> From the DBS thread, can apparently stop time within stopped time. Used this on Goku, because Goku through the power of being Stonk has acquired anti-time stop powers, but apparently not time stop within a time stop powers.
> 
> Toriyama is weird, is what I'm saying.


Okay. Was Goku powering through it a facet of his blueberry powers or was it a willpower thing?

Also, is Hit quick on the draw with his time-stop? Because starting distance could be important here; I've heard it that standard is 20 meters because of the whole western-style duel practice of 10 paces then shoot, otherwise it would work for giant characters (i.e. TTGL). 10 paces for TTGL would be hundreds of Ly, which would take seconds for Hit to cross.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Katsuargi (Apr 24, 2016)

Hit should be in the low-mid hundreds of trillions, at a rough estimate based on casual Beerus / Whis being at around 1 quad, so something like 4-8 million~ light years during his .5 second time stop.

Goku resisted likely by being Stronk. IE, high levels of Ki = anti hax. We saw it with Vegito and transmutation, now we're seeing it with Goku and time stop. Just a running DB theme apparently.

Hit's timestop is pretty much how he fights, and what he leads with. So yeah, he'll open with it.


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

So let me get this straight. 

This entire site has given  TTGL causality manipulation because his probability alteration was too vague and people really want to him use this power in a debate? But everyone agrees to ignore the fact that you've made him virtually omnipotent, so that he doesn't stomp any fictional character that doesn't also have limitless causality powers?

Reactions: Dumb 1


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 24, 2016)

Usually at this Tier, power like this is very common, not even that almighty. TTGL is a strong verse with some hax, that's all


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

How is making any event you want to occur, occur; not omnipotent?  

You all claim it made an impossible (which is not highly improbable) event a certainy (which is beyond very likely). There are no limits in this explanation.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## BreakFlame (Apr 24, 2016)

Same way GER isn't. Because there are plenty of verses out there that have comparable hax that can shove said ability right back down the users throat.


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

*True, which is why I've offered some means by which TTGL might be able to reach a win condition. Otherwise we might see a battle of attrition.
It's not? That's the point of the ending.*
It certainly was for the antispiral his power to control probability couldn't outright imake the likelyhood of the Spiral Nememsis happening being an absolute 0, and that's why he went full genocidal in the first place.

_*It's not logical, but it's still what happens. The point is moot.*_
This train of thought enables fallacious, no limits arguments.


_*That, and breaking down to Gurren Lagann is still an option, which pretty much eliminates the whole issue.*_

I forgot, did he do this in the original series, that certainly would make the whole issue irrelevant.
_*
Um. One with a 0% chance to occur?*_

*Being broken as fuck isn't the same as NLF, if that's what you're getting at.*

I think ColumbianDrugLord has worded it better here_:_



ColumbianDrugLord said:


> How is making any event you want to occur, occur; not omnipotent?
> 
> You all claim it made an impossible (which is not highly improbable) event a certainy (which is beyond very likely). There are no limits in this explanation.



Saying that probability manipulation could make them downright ignore causality in every situation is arguing for a NLF. That doesn't even make sense in-universe without making several leaps in logic, as there wouldn't even be conflict in the first place if the Antispiral could keep anything from ever happening. Arguing that he isn't practically omnipotent because other characters have the same power is, as I said before, circular logic.

I need to add that our probability calculations are inherently limited by what we're able to observe and factor in them.
Samer rule applies to Lord Genome here, as he is very clearly not omniscient.
Rewatching TTGL 25 leads me to believe Lord Genome simply couldn't account for several factors in the first place so his calculations are pretty much worthless as a way to measure how much they can influence probability.


*Spoiler*: __ 





At 17:00
_"it couldn't reach?" "But we even calculated its course" "was the pressure greater than we expected?"_




From that we can reach the conclusion that if there is a factor that they can't possibly account for (imagine them in an hypothetical scenario against an unobservable/abstract attack that can't be measured from their point of view) they won't be able to act accordingly_._

The limit to probability is impossibility, at least within an specific fiction.


*A) You assume he knows this thing has pilots.
B) You assume he can locate the pilots.
C) You assume the pilots will do nothing to stop this.*

A) and B) Are a probability considering characters can track ki signatures or sources of power in DB, God ki (DB God power) Is inconsistent in that regard though, as it can be felt by some characters and others simply cannot,
so you may have a point there.
C) Of course, it is a VS match.


*So Team Dai-Gurren can't resort to BFR later in the match?*

As far as I know BFR from GL is limited to its punches, so they need to land first.

*Okay, then let's discuss Hit's time-stop. Does it have known limitations? If not, what are its best showings (relative duration, range, etc.)? Does he tend to use it immediately? Is it true, immediate time-stop or does it slow the opponent gradually?*

-It's a 0.5 second timestop that grows as the fight progresses
-it's spammable
-Can be stacked (can freeze time for those who have resistance to his initial time freeze)
-Takes effect instantly (the time is frozen without lag, activation is dependant on individual reactions)
-Allows for a degree of damage stacking (Not usable without creating tons of inconsistencies in-universe)
-Range, universal based on statements saying it screws directly with time and powerscaling off other character's time manipulation, namely Whis' time rewinds. Standard assumption is also this for all timestops in fiction unless proven otherwise.
*
It's not my job to know this. If you're going to use the feat as a tool for debate, it's your job to provide it upon request. I'm not starting a shitstorm over it, so creating a thread to ask for a link to a feat would be asinine. I argued nothing except that the inverse-square law doesn't apply to the original video you linked me, which is true. Moreover, I found the feat GM posted to be perfectly reasonable. You're making an issue where there isn't one.*

Yeah, It's my fault here_._

Reactions: Agree 1


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## King Diablo (Apr 24, 2016)

A lot of ttgl wank and dbz downplay going on in here. smh

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dumb 3 | Dislike 2


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## Iwandesu (Apr 24, 2016)

Wot the fuck is even happening here? 
Ttgl is not omnipotent 
He can just fucking ignore any kind of barrier/dodge that happens on a universal+ plane of existance via probability manipulation
It is not even that broken lol 
There are sections of verses way more broken and powerful

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Iwandesu (Apr 24, 2016)

Hell he at best can ignore dura of fuckers without spatial resistance
And i wouldnt go that far


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

This is what is confusing me...

People are saying that they haven't made TTGL omnipotent, but you can't say,

_"Through probability manip; TTGL can _____ _*any _____."
*

Probability manipulation should never *guarantee* _anything_. Probability manipulation makes unlikely/likely things occur more often/less often, *not *all the time*.* To make something you want to happen, absolutely happen all the time is causality. So now you have amped his original power from probability to causality manipulation, what are the limits and why?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dumb 2


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## ogreigniz (Apr 24, 2016)



Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

ogreigniz said:


>


Yup, my thoughts exactly...

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dumb 1


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## Keollyn (Apr 24, 2016)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> This is what is confusing me...
> 
> People are saying that they haven't made TTGL omnipotent, but you can't say,
> 
> ...



Tell that to Fei.


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## ogreigniz (Apr 24, 2016)

Keo, can't you lock the thread?


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

I thought Keo wasn't a mod in the OBD section, though.

Don't you need to be a mod specifically for this section in order to do anything?

But yeah. Might as well add this to TTGL's wins in the wiki, then. Another One Bites The Dust.


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## Keollyn (Apr 24, 2016)

I probably can, I just haven't figured out how these powers work under the new forum.


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## Katsuargi (Apr 24, 2016)

Good to see Hit taking a victory.

Reactions: Dumb 2


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## BreakFlame (Apr 24, 2016)

He lost, though

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Clutch (Apr 24, 2016)

I clearly don't understand what's going on with how people are altering and using TTGL's powers. Not even saying he loses; Idc. I was just genuinely curious as to what was going on, asking questions, and you people act like I pissed in your brunch.

You folks are way too uptight and hostile. What the hell? WTF is everyone so mad about on this website? Relax.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Dislike 1


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## Keollyn (Apr 24, 2016)

My comment was very satirical, just so you know.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 24, 2016)

TTGL is not omnipotent, just a high level reality warper


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 24, 2016)

Isn't time-skip/stop combined with a ki blast with universal range a viable way for HIT to win this? Top tier DB characters do seem to have the range for making universal explosions going from Goku vs Beerus.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Isn't time-skip/stop combined with a ki blast with universal range a viable way for HIT to win this? Top tier DB characters do seem to have the range for making universal explosions going from Goku vs Beerus.



Considering TTGL can just sacrifice Lazangann and absorb that ki blast to make itself much more powerful, no, not really.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 24, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Considering TTGL can just sacrifice Lazangann and absorb that ki blast to make itself much more powerful, no, not really.



He can do this within a time stop?


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 24, 2016)

Nope. But considering the fact that TTGL's faster anyway, Hit's not gonna get the chance to do so.


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## Montanz (Apr 24, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Nope. But considering the fact that TTGL's faster anyway, Hit's not gonna get the chance to do so.



DBS characters are currently sitting in the l̶o̶w̶ ̶q̶u̶a̶d̶r̶i̶l̶l̶i̶o̶n̶s̶-̶l̶o̶w̶ ̶q̶u̶i̶n̶t̶i̶l̶l̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ now, by virtue of the DB universe being larger than our own and Whis' crossing at least twice that distance within 2 hours.

High trillions - Low quadrillions

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 24, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> I probably can, I just haven't figured out how these powers work under the new forum.



For future reference just scroll over thread tools at the top of the page with your mouse cursor and uncheck the open box. Don't even have to push a button.

This software is absurdly easy to use.


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## BreakFlame (Apr 25, 2016)

ColumbianDrugLord said:


> I clearly don't understand what's going on with how people are altering and using TTGL's powers. Not even saying he loses; Idc. I was just genuinely curious as to what was going on, asking questions, and you people act like I pissed in your brunch.
> 
> You folks are way too uptight and hostile. What the hell? WTF is everyone so mad about on this website? Relax.



This forum places no limits on the amount of satire, swearing, and general profanity one is allowed to point in another persons direction as long as it falls within the general framework of arguing about which characters kills the other character. This has lead to a downward spiral of continuously escalating self-destruction which has reduced the forum from arguing through the use of calcs and relatively in depth discussions on the nature of a characters abilities to going to whoever makes the other side rage-quit faster.

See Also, the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Informative 2


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## King Diablo (Apr 25, 2016)

Current hit got upgraded in the newest episode.


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## Galo de Lion (Apr 25, 2016)

The IBBS's mass energy was quintillions of times greater than the universe. Which TTGL absorbed. So...


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## Blocky (Apr 25, 2016)

Man, the wank for hit is real

Poor hit get's his ass drilled


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## Iwandesu (Apr 25, 2016)

i actually think antispirals were bending Both time and space so i doubt hit can really time skip throught them
it may be misremembering,Tho
friendly reminder tha Goku is only possibly universal because The clash with beerus was calced as above Mass Energy of The universe
TTGl is absolutely no solding a mere Mass Energy of The universe attack and sending it Back with like what ? Double digit e+ of difference ?


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## Montanz (Apr 25, 2016)

TTGL said:


> The IBBS's mass energy was quintillions of times greater than the universe. Which TTGL absorbed. So...



Blowing up the DBS universe with an omnidirectional explosion results in greater amounts of energy, but calculating High Multi-Galaxy to Universe level feats has never been the standard here from what I can gather.

And from my point of view that only serves to hurt those kind of feats by putting a cap on them despite the fact that they are unmeasurable in-universe.


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## jkujbkjhffd (Apr 25, 2016)

Goku and Beerus almost destroyed the entire macrocosm just from clashing 3 times (The DBverse is massively bigger than our own with having the different realms residing outside of the universe). This also includes Heaven, Hell, Demon realm, Kaioshin Realm (which is 1/10 the size of the universe) Rosat...etc.

Hit would stomp that version of Goku^^^^


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Apr 25, 2016)

DBS top tiers really need their speed sorted out. From what I see from posts here they range from trillions to quintillions times FTL. I do think HIT would have the edge via time-skip if not for TTGL having a speed advantage.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 25, 2016)

Nah i double checked and antispirals indeed trapped the gurren dans on acasual dimension and they still broke through
Timeskip aint doing shit to their probability missiles most likely
Also gotta love how those threads are awesome to reiterate how db has fuck all for its hax hit class
Thats what happens when you become skyfather/cubic with fucking meta human level hax i guess

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Montanz (Apr 25, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> Nah i double checked and antispirals indeed trapped the gurren dans on *acasual *dimension and they still broke through


That's something that you're gonna have to prove, I see nothing to suggest that the dimensional laberynth they were trapped in was acausal, there was also a timelapse from the time they were trapped to the time they broke out of it.

And there has also been threads discussing wether this more than a mindfuck of great proportions or an actual physical dimensional trapping.

Either ways no character has automatically been granted time hax inmunity just because they can escape a dimension.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 25, 2016)

It was stated to be a dimension where time and space were nulls on The mango
Ill try to find the video at any case
Also while it might not grant tengen toppa time resistance it surely gives his missiles or wathever it used to break through the dimension
Regardless, hit is not killing ttgl with his level of fire power this easily nor is ttgl failing to aim his own attacks


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## SSBMonado (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm curious: Why does TTGL get the probability missiles? Unless I'm remembering wrong, they were only ever used by the Anti-Spiral's ships AGAINST team daigurren, so giving them to TTGL is like giving Hit the Kaio-Ken. 

And if both of their DCs and duras are similar, then wouldn't every hit from Hit (oh dear...) blow parts of TTGL away due to the difference in size?


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## Bad Wolf (Apr 26, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> I'm curious: Why does TTGL get the probability missiles? Unless I'm remembering wrong, they were only ever used by the Anti-Spiral's ships AGAINST team daigurren, so giving them to TTGL is like giving Hit the Kaio-Ken.


They used the probability missiles against the Ashtanga, then they used probability manipulation in many ways even to counter anti spiral's manipulation. And I think it's quite the opposite, Hit don't have a range like that so it's like a mosquito attacking godzilla, maybe it can damage him in this scenario but with a range so low that the TTGL would hardly notice.
More of that, isn't beerus stronger than Hit? The clash would have killed him, so hit shouldn't have this level of durability, TTGL instead can.
The calc of the Infinity big bang storm is only for destroying the lasengan but that attack was a continuous flow of energy and the TTGL tanked that attack for a bit


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 26, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> I'm curious: Why does TTGL get the probability missiles? Unless I'm remembering wrong, they were only ever used by the Anti-Spiral's ships AGAINST team daigurren, so giving them to TTGL is like giving Hit the Kaio-Ken.
> 
> And if both of their DCs and duras are similar, then wouldn't every hit from Hit (oh dear...) blow parts of TTGL away due to the difference in size?


Yes, you're remembering it wrong.

TTGL used probability altering missiles against the Anti-Spiral as well courtesy of Attenborough.

And TTGL has energy absorption. Lower forms of Gurren Lagann (base GL, specifically) featured energy absorption and redirection. TTGL scales to that form of Gurren Lagann, obviously.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 26, 2016)

Guys? I have a basic question.

Wouldn't TTGL basically kill most enemies by the gravity it exerts from being one of the most massive objects in fiction?  



Katsuargi said:


> From the DBS thread, can apparently stop time within stopped time. Used this on Goku, because Goku through the power of being Stonk has acquired anti-time stop powers, but apparently not time stop within a time stop powers.
> 
> Toriyama is weird, is what I'm saying.



... How the fuck do we treat that?


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## Finalbeta (Apr 26, 2016)

Zarama would've been a better matchup
Too bady he wasn't so much of a thing back then

Reactions: Like 1


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## jkujbkjhffd (Apr 26, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Zarama would've been a better matchup
> Too bady he wasn't so much of a thing back then



Zarama would stomp.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Finalbeta (Apr 26, 2016)

That's why I told


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## Toaa (Apr 26, 2016)

Zarama...the dragon god.top 3 baddest things in dbz.


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 26, 2016)

Zarama is featless and would get a drill to its face for its troubles.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Iwandesu (Apr 26, 2016)

> ... How the fuck do we treat that?


fanfic tier+
hit didnt stop stopped time 
goku adquired some arbitrary 0.2 seconds of time resistance because wathever shit he smoke
then hit used his remaining 0.3 seconds of time stop he had just adquired because lol hit grow potential


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Apr 26, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Zarama is featless and would get a drill to its face for its troubles.



Shouldn't he be multi-galaxy just from his sheer size? And it was implied by Beerus that he could wipe the universe from existence. Of course we'd need feats before accepting that. 

Of course this could be irrelevant as I have no idea what TTGL is sitting at stat wise or the kind of hax it possesses.


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## Blocky (Apr 26, 2016)

Why can't we wait for the next ep then?
We don't even know if it can fight or not


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## Galo de Lion (Apr 26, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Blowing up the DBS universe with an omnidirectional explosion results in greater amounts of energy, but calculating High Multi-Galaxy to Universe level feats has never been the standard here from what I can gather.
> 
> And from my point of view that only serves to hurt those kind of feats by putting a cap on them despite the fact that they are unmeasurable in-universe.


The end of the fight against the Anti-Spiral ended in an omnidirectional explosion that destroyed the Anti-Spiral universe (show), and that's not the entire Infinity Big Bang Storm, just the part that Lord Genome absorbed & converted to matter.


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## Xcano (Apr 26, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> i actually think antispirals were bending Both time and space so i doubt hit can really time skip throught them
> it may be misremembering,Tho
> friendly reminder tha Goku is only possibly universal because The clash with beerus was calced as above Mass Energy of The universe
> TTGl is absolutely no solding a mere Mass Energy of The universe attack and sending it Back with like what ? Double digit e+ of difference ?


You'd have to warp time infinitely in order to stop it, any less will just increase/decrease its flow. So the time stop should still work.


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## Cain1234 (Jan 12, 2017)

This was Hit before his Time skip was explained. Does anything changes now with new information since last time it was over half a year ago.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

Hmm... TTGL may not be able to reach Hit in his pocket dimension. And Hit's far more casually in the universal + range now than he was in the past. Heck since Hit's invisible shockwaves also pass through matter you could argue Hit could kill the pilots of TTGL so it becomes inoperable.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

So should Hit's loss and TTGL's win with this thread match on their OBD profiles now be listed as outdated?


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## Cain1234 (Jan 12, 2017)

That's pretty much what I thought. He can just go through TTGL entirely and assassinate the Piolet. Either from a distance or up close. Also he can cross 2 Universe+ distance in a few minutes.


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

@NightmareCinema
@TTGL 

Thoughts?


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## Nep Heart (Jan 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Hmm... TTGL may not be able to reach Hit in his pocket dimension. And Hit's far more casually in the universal + range now than he was in the past. Heck since Hit's invisible shockwaves also pass through matter you could argue Hit could kill the pilots of TTGL so it becomes inoperable.



 >TTGL can't reach across dimensions

Someone doesn't know what they're talking about considering even a weaker form can shatter through spacetime dimensional barriers with brute force alone.

 Also, was a necro really necessary?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Jan 12, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> >TTGL can't reach across dimensions
> 
> Someone doesn't know what they're talking about considering even a weaker form can shatter through spacetime dimensional barriers with brute force alone.
> 
> Also, was a necro really necessary?


Look at who did it.

That should tell you everything you need to know.


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## Nep Heart (Jan 12, 2017)

Cain needs to have his posting privileges revoked. No, banned as a matter of fact.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> >TTGL can't reach across dimensions
> 
> Someone doesn't know what they're talking about considering even a weaker form can shatter through spacetime dimensional barriers with brute force alone.



I know the feat you're talking about. I've watched TTGL. But Hit was reforming his pocket dimension even while it was being shattered on every side by SSB Goku's aura (you could see him stopping the shattered pieces but the kamehameha just pushed him over the top and led to the pocket dimension being destroyed). He could easily reform it if TTGL just tried to punch it.

And there's also the fact that TTGL wouldn't have a way of figuring out its location or even figuring out that Hit is using a pocket dimension. The abilities Hit showed with the pocket dimension could just be seen as simple intangibility, and teleportation by TTGL's crew. There's no way for them to know what they actually are.

And lastly the crew just has no way to defend against Hit's intangible/invisible shockwaves. Hit will be able to sense their ki signatures from within the TTGL mech and target them and once the shockwaves pass through TTGL and hit them they'll just be dead.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightmareCinema (Jan 12, 2017)

Xenos really needs to shut the fuck up regarding TTGL considering how wrong he is.

As for the match, TTGL just absorbs Hit's attacks and powers itself up with it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Xenos really needs to shut the fuck up regarding TTGL considering how wrong he is.
> 
> As for the match, TTGL just absorbs Hit's attacks and powers itself up with it.



Dude. No need to be a dick about this. I'm not trying to wank Hit or make retarded assumptions like some other posters would.

Can you show an instance of TTGL absorbing an intangible/invisible shockwave? And I don't recall TTGL's energy absorption being passive regardless so if the crew don't know they're being attack why would they try to absorb energy?


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## NightmareCinema (Jan 12, 2017)

>No need to be a dick about it

Considering how wrong you are about what TTGL has been shown to be capable of so much so that we had to keep telling you only for you to not listen anyway?

Yeah, that's all on you.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> >No need to be a dick about it
> 
> Considering how wrong you are about what TTGL has been shown to be capable of so much so that we had to keep telling you only for you to not listen anyway?
> 
> Yeah, that's all on you.



What're you talking about? I knew TTGL could create a crack in space-time before Ampchu mentioned it. Just didn't think it would be enough since TTGL's crew would have to know about Hit's pocket dimension to start with.

Just saying "you're so wrong" over and over is childish and meaningless. Provide some evidence, man.


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

@Bad Wolf

Instead of hiding behind NC why don't you come here and provide your arguments too?


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## NightmareCinema (Jan 12, 2017)

Already did. In this same fucking thread 8 months ago.


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Already did. In this same fucking thread 8 months ago.



Hit's showcased new abilities since then.


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## Blocky (Jan 12, 2017)

This thread doesn't really deserve to be back from dead.

This shit was 8 months ago man

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bad Wolf (Jan 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> @Bad Wolf
> 
> Instead of hiding behind NC why don't you come here and provide your arguments too?


Because as he's saying you just don't listen, I can even open umineko vs some DB characters and probably you would try to argue. And the thread is already death, only DBfags still trying debating


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Because as he's saying you just don't listen, I can even open umineko vs some DB characters and probably you would try to argue.



No I fucking wouldn't. I sure as hell know they're not at that level hax-wise or DC-wise (since Umineko has some megaversal shit or something iirc?) and if you've seen me in the DBS feats thread you'd know I try to tamp down wank for the series because it induces the raigen effect in me. 



Bad Wolf said:


> And the thread is already death, only DBfags still trying debating



Not gonna defend the dumbass who necroed this thread but I genuinely think Hit has a good shot here now. And i'm not a DBfag who'd argue they can resist hax they've never shown resistance to or beat characters far out of their league. I just don't see TTGL as far out of their league.


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## NightmareCinema (Jan 12, 2017)

He has. Which means nothing still if he can't find the pilots because the inside of TTGL recreates the Super Spiral Space.

Not to mention they can just alter probability to make Hit's attacks miss.


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## Bad Wolf (Jan 12, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Not gonna defend the dumbass who necroed this thread but I genuinely think Hit has a good shot here now.





xenos5 said:


> I just don't see TTGL as far out of their league.


Hit got some update but many of the problem fighting the TTGL are still there.
Just read through the thread, many winning feats of the TTGL are still too much for hit


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> He has. Which means nothing still if he can't find the pilots because *the inside of TTGL* recreates the Super Spiral Space.



The inside? I don't remember that in the anime. Can you link the scene and explain how that was the inside of TTGL?



NightmareCinema said:


> Not to mention they can just alter probability to make Hit's attacks miss.



I remember the whole argument about whether TTGL's probability manipulation was passive or not and I think sufficient evidence was provided with King Kittan's activation of it. But how would probability be involved here? Hit doesn't even have to have the shockwave Hit TTGL and go through it. He can send the shockwave into a rift and have another rift open inside TTGL and have the shockwave come out of it. Or he could go into a rift and open a rift inside TTGL to kill the pilots personally.


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Hit got some update but many of the problem fighting the TTGL are still there.
> Just read through the thread, many winning feats of the TTGL are still too much for hit



If Hit had only gotten unquantifiably stronger than I wouldn't be arguing here as the ouctome would indeed be the same. But he instead also showcased new hax which TTGL might not be able to defend against. You can just take this debate in a vacuum (take Hit out of the equation) and I'd still be interested to know how TTGL would defend against a generic universe level+ MFTL character with these new abilities hit's displayed.


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## Montanz (Jan 12, 2017)

>thread was 8 months ago
wew lad, time sure flies.


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## NightmareCinema (Jan 12, 2017)

And this is what I'm saying about Xenos not knowing shit about TTGL's abilities.

As for that inside TTGL thing, it's from a WOG statement about whether TTGL can be formed in real space. Guy said yes because TTGL just recreates the Super Spiral Space within itself.


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## xenos5 (Jan 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> *And this is what I'm saying about Xenos not knowing shit about TTGL's abilities.*
> 
> As for that inside TTGL thing, *it's from a WOG statement* about whether TTGL can be formed in real space. Guy said yes because TTGL just recreates the Super Spiral Space within itself.



Oh, cmon. That's a bit unfair. I did watch the anime. I'm super unknowledgeable about TTGL for not knowing about WOG from an obscure interview or twitter question answer or whatever that isn't in the anime?

And anyways can you link the source for this?


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## Montanz (Jan 12, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> He has. Which means nothing still if he can't find the pilots because the inside of TTGL recreates the Super Spiral Space.


And why do you assume this translates to the inside of TTGL being larger than the outside?, chou ginga gurren lagann was stated to have a galaxy born within itself  and while it had galaxy-busting power it didn't mean the space within it was the size of a galaxy.
all wog does here is tells us that TTGL can manifest itself in real space, nothing more.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jan 12, 2017)

How high into universe level was the Grand Zamboa with its big bang attack? TTGL isn't universe level without absorbing an attack of equal magnitude and Hit is pretty casual into universe level.


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## Gordo solos (Jan 12, 2017)

TTGL still wins, no need for the necro


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## Clutch (Jan 12, 2017)

After reviewing GL a little while back, I think Hit is overkill. The farthest anyone in the verse would get is SSJ Goku or Vegeta. They don't have anywhere near the speed or DC to match current Hit. He's too much.

F.Trunks would be a better match.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 13, 2017)

Locking this bit of necromancy.

@Cain1234 in the future if you want to discuss something like this then make a new thread and show that there's been a substantial change of facts for one or both parties, necroing is bad because it brings up old arguments and emotions, exactly like what's happening now. That said, if you're making threads frivolously prepare to get ganked.


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