# Jinbe vs Sanji



## Extravlad (May 20, 2020)

Who wins? Don't forget to vote guys;


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## Sir Curlyhat (May 20, 2020)

_Jimbe's Perospero/Snack level overall. Obviously much more physical than a Perospero, while lacking all the hax and DF versatility. He's decisively weaker than Jack.

Sanji is @ Jack level probably, give or take a slight edge, and will reach Queen/King level come the end of Wano.

Sanji low high diffs now since Jimbe can take a good beating, and low mid diffs come the end of Wano._


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## TheWiggian (May 20, 2020)

Sanji should win unless it's all feats only in which case Jinbei easily got it.


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## Ludi (May 20, 2020)

Based on feats Jimbei wins vs current Sanji, ~high diff. I think end of wano Sanji will take it, high diff.


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## Corax (May 20, 2020)

For now Jinbei. Post Wano hard to say,as they both might receive major power ups.


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## neonlight (May 20, 2020)

Jimbei takes this. Difficulty is guesswork but Jimbei is ahead of sanji in crew structure.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 20, 2020)

Jinbei beats that ass


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## Strobacaxi (May 20, 2020)

Sanji was more hurt by Vergo than Jimbei was hurt by BM.
Sanji's best current feat is doing pretty much the same thing to P1 that Jimbei did to BM (Attacking enemy causing them to be pushed away with no visible damage done)

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say Jimbei


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## oiety (May 20, 2020)

On land? Sanji with RS would high/extreme. Invisibility is probably a bitch, not sure if I recall any major CoO feats from Jinbe. Base Sanji would lose at high diff or so.

In the water? Jinbe would probably mid-diff RS Sanji, i.e

LAND:
RS Sanji vs Jinbe=Sanji win
Base Sanji vs Jinbe=Jinbe win
WATER:
RS Sanji vs Jinbe=Jinbe win
Base Sanji vs Jinbe=Jinbe win, so, voting Jinbe.


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## Richard Lionheart (May 20, 2020)

Jinbei mid diffs him by feats. Especially with some water sources.


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## hajimehipo (May 20, 2020)

Richard Lionheart said:


> Jinbei mid diffs him by feats. Especially with some water sources.



Mid diff ? 
Rs sanji is high diff at the very least


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## Ekkologix (May 20, 2020)

Currently Jinbe, after Wano Sanji. I'm not sure who to vote for lmao


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## Fel1x (May 20, 2020)

fuck I clickmissed
Sanji is stronger for sure. and close to EoS the gap will be huge


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## xmysticgohanx (May 20, 2020)

RS Sanji > Water Jinbe  > Jinbe > Sanji


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## B Rabbit (May 20, 2020)

Right now it's Jimbei.

Will probably be Sanji at the end of Wano.


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## Red Admiral (May 21, 2020)

For now Jenbi 
after wano ... Sanji

so we are talking about a week in terms of story


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## Oberyn Nymeros (May 21, 2020)

Sanji (based on my gut and not feats).


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## Gledania (May 21, 2020)

Extravlad said:


> Who wins? Don't forget to vote guys;



With or without raid suit ?


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## Ruse (May 21, 2020)

Jinbe >= RS Sanji > Base Sanji 

RS Sanji will overtake Winbe post Wano


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## Extravlad (May 21, 2020)

Surprised by the amount of people who think fighting on par with Page One is more impressive than sending Bigmom flying

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (May 21, 2020)

Extravlad said:


> Surprised by the amount of people who think fighting on par with Page One is more impressive than sending Bigmom flying



  Remember that you started this when threads including zoro and several supernovas will pop up during the next two weeks .

  No need to genuinely debate as your goal is obvious, you're actually annoyed to see my boy do well in different match ups lately in the battledome.

*  Sanji wins*. And we're not talking about a fight in water otherwise Jinbei would be close to the world strongest character in the serie. He could surely destroy the yonkous and admirals in water, why even specify?
And of course the raid suit is de facto included, otherwise let's remove all the devil fruits or weapons in the serie.
  As difficult as it is when looking at some past feats, Sanji is bound to be stronger than jinbei in his current form, and moving forward.
It starts now at Onigashima, hence why Jinbei just joined.

Sanji blocked an attack from a yonkou alongside luffy to protect reiju .....doesn't mean much. Jinbei and sanji would be fisted in an extended exchange against the top dogs of one piece.


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## The crazy hacker (May 21, 2020)

I think Sanji wins with very high diff reckon


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## Gomu (May 21, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> Remember that you started this when threads including zoro and several supernovas will pop up during the next two weeks .
> 
> No need to genuinely debate as your goal is obvious, you're actually annoyed to see my boy do well in different match ups lately in the battledome.
> 
> ...


Sanji would not have been able to do what Jinbe did. Luffy couldn't even do it with G4. Jinbe did it.


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## Mylesime (May 21, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Sanji would not have been able to do what Jinbe did. Luffy couldn't even do it with G4. Jinbe did it.



 The fact of the matter is that we don't know the extent of Sanji's current strength, he didn't even use fire against Page one, he didn't use the raid suit against drake. And we don't know  exactly what changes ussop and Franky made with the raid suit.

 In terms of feats, luffy is the only member of the Alliance who has better feats than Jinbei, which doesn't mean that Jinbei is the second strongest member of the alliance...... Jinbei has better feats than Denjiro, Ashura Doji, Kidd, killer, zoro, law, hawkins, the tobbi roppo,etc,etc it doesn't mean he's stronger than them, it doesn't mean he's weaker either, we'll see at the end of the war where they're at exactly.
Everyone has to make up his mind regarding these characters current levels. And in my opinion, sanji is stronger than Jinbei at the moment.
Honestly it should be close, so i don't really care about the outcome....


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## Gomu (May 21, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> The truth of the matter is that we don't know the extent of Sanji's current strength, he didn't even use fire against Page one, he didn't use the raid suit against drake. And we don't know  exactly what changes ussop and franky did to the raid suit.
> In terms of feats, luffy is the only member of the Alliance who has better feats than Jinbei, which doesn't mean that Jinbei is the second strongest member of the alliance...... Jinbei has better feats than Denjiro, Ashura Doji, Kidd, killer, zoro, law, it doesn't mean he's stronger than them, it doesn't mean he's weaker either, we'll see at the end of the war where they're at exactly.
> Everyone has to make up his own idea regarding these characters current levels. And in my opinion, sanji is stronger than Jinbei at the moment.
> Honestly it should be close, so i don't really care about the outcome....


Has he fought a Commander Level opponent? There are no what-ifs because Jinbei has his feats now. Do you have the feats for him to be able to beat Jinbe *NOW?*
---
Again, Luffy got knocked out by one hit from a Yonkou while he was bloodlust. Jinbei has blocked and taken attacks from characters stronger than Luffy and has knocked back a crazed Big Mom. Luffy has not done that. If he has, show feats.
---
I care about facts, and you're not showing them.


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## Mylesime (May 21, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Has he fought a Commander Level opponent? There are no what-ifs because Jinbei has his feats now. Do you have the feats for him to be able to beat Jinbe *NOW?*
> ---
> Again, Luffy got knocked out by one hit from a Yonkou while he was bloodlust. Jinbei has blocked and taken attacks from characters stronger than Luffy and has knocked back a crazed Big Mom. Luffy has not done that. If he has, show feats.
> ---
> I care about facts, and you're not showing them.



  And you're not showing facts either.....
Again you don't know the extent of the strength of sanji currently. What you're saying would be true if we were talking about the character at Totland, before his power up, until he goes all out during the war you can't accurately compare them. That's the thing, sanji is a growing character, not an established figure like jinbei, his power level grew considrably between whole cake and onigashima, it's even worse if we take into account feats that took place in Marineford.
I could say the exact same thing with hawkins, apoo, kidd, law..... jinbei's feats allow you to have an accurate idea of his abilities, you can't accurately compare him to characters who are growing before our eyes. We're in the same boat.
You're free to think how you want, me too.

  And Luffy is stronger than Jinbei. Jinbei didn't match any top tier in an extended fight, momentarly clashing with them is nice, being unable to beat Ace for 5 days is more important regarding his power level.
Caesar was able to put down luffy at Punk hazard, it didn't mean shit. That's the thing a character performance isn't constant, they're not always at their best, match ups matter ,etc,etc


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## convict (May 21, 2020)

Jinbei high difficulty. He has too many positive feats and Sanji too many negative. He has some decent feats but failing to knock out the weakest F6 doesn’t compare to what Jinbei has done. Post Wano Sanji wins likely but no less than high.


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## Gomu (May 21, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> And you're not showing facts either.....
> Again you don't know the extent of the strength of sanji currently. What you're saying would be true if we were talking about the character at Totland, before his power up, until he goes all out during the war you can't accurately compare them. That's the thing, sanji is a growing character, not an established figure like jinbei, his power level grew considrably between whole cake and onigashima, it's even worse if we take into account feats that took place in Marineford.
> I could say the exact same thing with hawkins, apoo, kidd, law..... jinbei's feats allow you to have an accurate idea of his abilities, you can't accurately compare him to characters who are growing before our eyes. We're in the same boat.
> You're free to think how you want, me too.
> ...


Once again. Because you don't seem to be listening. The top tiers shouldn't be so much stronger from pre-skip. Jinbei has blocked attacks and taken attacks from Akainu. Jinbei has a feat of, by himself, pushing a crazed Big Mom off the Sunny. One feat. Show one feat of any Straw Hat doing this in their base (that goes for Luffy too). One, one feat. Stop talking about it, show it, prove your hypothesis right, right now, not two months from now, not a year from now, right now.
---
Hawkins HAS SHOWN FEATS of fighting against Zoro and Luffy to a standstill and inflicting critical damage on characters like Law, it's not the same. And also, YOU CAN'T USE THAT BECAUSE SANJI IS A MAIN CHARACTER in this series, so he would have the most feats compared to any other character that's not within the Straw Hats as the series is based around the Straw Hat Crew. 
---
Luffy didn't either. He's not stronger than Katakuri, we don't know the extent of his Advanced Busoshoku, Jinbei has done more with his abilities than Luffy (in his base has), show proof. No one can seem to do that, you talk around it but the most direct fucking arrow is JINBEI HAS BETTER FEATS THAN THE M3 JUST FROM TAKING ATTACKS FROM TOP TIERS LIKE BIG MOM AND AKAINU! Prove he has not.
---
That has nothing to do with the fact that Sanji does not have the feats you're talking about and your fucking headcanon means *NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH! PROVE IT DOES!!!*


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## Mylesime (May 22, 2020)

First of all, it's my last post regarding this topic with you.
You're the one who is not listening, so i'll explain to you one last time as clearly as possible.
Everyone understands what you're saying, you're the one unaware of the implications of your statement.
  If you give so much importance to "feats" (as if you were not taking into account circumstances, or as if they were Something absolute which doesnt require reading or analyze….which is bullshit) the only thing you could say, like @convict did, is to say that based on these feats you give the benefit of the doubt to jinbei as opposed to other characters who lack said feats….
In short the doubt doesn't disapear, you've proven jackshit, the abscence of evidence isn't the evidence of  abscence.
*The only bulletproof stance would be to say that we can't give an accurate judgement, only an opinon, the minute you choose a side you're like everyone else, so get off your high horse. You don't even know what sanji look like in a raid suit currently, you don't know how the suits durability compare to jinbei's offensive power, and vice versa,etc,etc
you know as much as every one else regarding this topic, which is to say ….. not much.*

   Regarding your answer:



Gomu said:


> Once again. Because you don't seem to be listening. The top tiers shouldn't be so much stronger from pre-skip. Jinbei has blocked attacks and taken attacks from Akainu. Jinbei has a feat of, by himself, pushing a crazed Big Mom off the Sunny. One feat. Show one feat of any Straw Hat doing this in their base (that goes for Luffy too). One, one feat. Stop talking about it, show it, prove your hypothesis right, right now, not two months from now, not a year from now, right now.


  Jinbei hasn't done anything to aka inu, he didn't scratch him, he succeeded not immediatly dying in front of him, that's what he did.
The only way to have an idea of their comparative powers would be to have a complete fight between the two with minimal external interferences which practically never happens in the story ( ao kiji against aka inu, off paneled is the closest thing that comes to my mind), people are still debating to this day regarding luffy's strength comparatively to katakuri…...
Jinbei would die if he had to fight aka inu, it would not be even close…...
Clashing momentarly against a top tier, and then drawing general conclusions regarding an hypothetic encounter against other top tiers is not Worth as much as you make it sound.
Again, ace equally clashed with ao kiji, luffy and sanji clashed with big mom, zoro clashed with fujitora, luffy pushed kaido, so what?……..we can safely say that all of them would have been raped in an actual fight at the time.
You then highlights the fact that some of those other strawhats used a transformation to do so…… so what?
 Since when does jinbei have a transformation? Each character has his strength and abilities, you Don't get extra point because you didn't transform if you can't use more power in the first place…..

  Fighting against katakuri and craker for 24 hours without interruption shits on any feat from jinbei. You're using jinbei 's short clashes against aka inu and big mom, who both would have killed him without any difficulty, and give them more value than luffy actually beating two yonkou commanders in less than 48 hours…… you're not making any sense.
Luffy has proven more than jinbei, beating doflamingo, cracker and katakuri shits on any feats from Jinbei. Using a character lone feat without context doesn't hold as much value as you make it sound. Sengoku failed to hurt luffy at Marineford, luffy hurt magellan pre time skip, blackbeard and his whole crew were put down by magellan, luffy hurt garp at Marineford. It's not enough to draw conclusions, you've got to take everything into account. And both big mom and aka inu would murder Jinbei.



Gomu said:


> Hawkins HAS SHOWN FEATS of fighting against Zoro and Luffy to a standstill and inflicting critical damage on characters like Law, it's not the same. And also, YOU CAN'T USE THAT BECAUSE SANJI IS A MAIN CHARACTER in this series, so he would have the most feats compared to any other character that's not within the Straw Hats as the series is based around the Straw Hat Crew.



  Of course i can use that. Sanji like hawkins in this example IS on a similar path contrary to a character like aka inu or ao kiji for example. It doesn't matter that the last and only time we saw these two fight seriously was ten years ago at Marineford, the pirates from the worst generation are evolving, so they are bound to dramatically change between two major fights in the serie contrary to established powerhouses. So in this case with Sanji,* anyone that take a stance regarding the outcome of an hypothetic fight with the character is guessing.*
Your position doesn't hold more value than anyone else, who the fuck could have predicted that sanji would be able to be invisible with his raid suit before Oda gave him that ability?
Exactly. Again i'm not saying that the guy will be admiral level, but depending on who Oda chooses to be his adversary (ies), the character level could drastically change. We Don't know exactly where he will stand in the power ranking, only that he's yonkou commander level which isn't saying much.



Gomu said:


> Luffy didn't either. He's not stronger than Katakuri, we don't know the extent of his Advanced Busoshoku, Jinbei has done more with his abilities than Luffy (in his base has), show proof. No one can seem to do that, you talk around it but the most direct fucking arrow is JINBEI HAS BETTER FEATS THAN THE M3 JUST FROM TAKING ATTACKS FROM TOP TIERS LIKE BIG MOM AND AKAINU! Prove he has not.


  Your emphasis on base form or not, doesn't mean anything. Some characters don't even have transformations, a character power is his power, and again clashing for ten seconds against a character doesn't hold the same weight as actually beating one after dozens of hours of combat. Luffy feats shits on jinbei's.
Some people were wanking zoro to high heaven because he clashed with fujitora, we've seen him fight supernovas since then, his fight against killer came to a conclusion. Safe to say that we can accurately say he  was not admiral level at Dressrosa......
Monet clashed with luffy.....she looked good......zoro then destroyed her without sweating.
You act like characters power level don't vary, and don't depend on circumstances. Their mental state, physical condition, abilities in relation to the opponent,etc,etc all these different element have an influence on performances.
*Luffy proved more than jinbei, he may be inconsistent, he showed far more using the maximum of his abilities.*
We could use the bad showing of jinbei and give them as much weight as you give his encounter with aka inu, it would be the same thing, inacurate.* You've got to take the whole body of work to have an accurate idea…...*

*


Gomu said:



			That has nothing to do with the fact that Sanji does not have the feats you're talking about and your fucking headcanon means NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH! PROVE IT DOES!!!

Click to expand...

*
  To conclude, you fail to grasp this simple Truth once again. The fact that Sanji doesn't have any showing in his current form doesn't allow us to accurately compare him to jinbei; It goes both ways, you can not either compare him accurately with Jinbei; so either you choose to not give an answer, or you're doing like everyone else. You're guessing* using your headcanon regarding the character current level 
Either you think jinbei is currently stronger or not, either way you're guessing. I don't care.*


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## Gomu (May 22, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> First of all, it's my last post regarding this topic with you.
> You're the one who is not listening, so i'll explain to you one last time as clearly as possible.
> Everyone undesrtands what you're saying, you're the one unaware of the impications of your statement.
> If you give so much importance to "feats" (as if you were not taking into account circumstances, or as if they were Something absolute which doesnt require reading or analyze….which is bullshit) the only thing you could say, like @convict did, is to say that based on these feats you give the benefit of the doubt to jinbei as opposed to other characters who lack said feats….
> ...


It's not that I give too many standards to feats because if you have nothing to show for your argument, it's not conclusive. Jinbei is now apart of the Straw Hat pirates now. Understand that he can grow as well while in this group. Nothing stops him, Brook, or Franky (the oldest characters in the crew) from growing. Please just say you have nothing to show for it, and that what you say isn't fact but you believe your headcanon. That's not a lie, you're lying when you say Sanji is stronger than him without any evidence. Your opinion means nothing without a layer of foundation, and you have none.
---
It's funny you should say a character hasn't done anything to a top tier opponent. Can you show any feats where Sanji has done anything, blocked anything, from a top tier opponent. If you can't, then your opinion is still crap. This "well my opinion comes from what I think" with no evidence is silly. Just like what you're saying, because you're trying to counter an argument with "I have a right to my opinion", it means nothing. 
---
Sanji did not clash with Big Mom, LUFFY AND SANJI clashed with Big Mom, that means they needed both their strengths to stop an attack she wasn't even that focused on. She literally shows surprise when they get in front of her. That's not the same as taking one of her strongest weapons to your arms and still being able to counter back (his arms weren't broken, he could still use Fishman Jujutsu and his techniques with no issue) which is again, something Sanji has not do, and in fact makes it more impressive than what Luffy and Sanji did as he takes the attack to the face and is even stated to actually have blocked it by himself. Again, Sanji did not do this. I'm saying it multiple times for emphasis. 

I'll say it like this then, Sanji has not taken an attack and struck a top tier by himself. Maybe you will understand that one.
---
Except again, not even Luffy can do what he did without G4. And you can't prove it. That's the problem, you're talking out your ass and you know you are, that's what makes this wank of the M3 terrible. No feats, and you think you know everything.
---
"Truth". Lol... Without facts or feats, all of our arguments would be null and void. Feats lay the groundwork for arguments to have a set understanding. If you can't understand that then, yeah, sayonara, bud. Do what you gotta do. But don't call "I feel Sanji is this strong" a truth.


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## doms777 (May 23, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> RS Sanji > Water Jinbe  > Jinbe > Sanji



RS Sanji above Jinbei in water ?


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## xmysticgohanx (May 23, 2020)

doms777 said:


> RS Sanji above Jinbei in water ?


 if rs Sanji is also in the water then he loses

I meant Jinbe’s power level in the water vs rs Sanji on land


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## killfox (May 24, 2020)

Who’s the strongest person Sanji has fought? Vergo and Page one?

This is laughable Jinbei takes this.
There’s a reason Luffy’s fellow supernovas (who are stronger than Sanji) freaked out at Jinbei joining Luffy.

Jinbei fought a fire logia for 5 days straight when he was much much weaker showing greater endurance than Sanji ever has.

Jinbei speed blitzed and one shotted Moria who was using shadows. People can say that Moria was fine next time we saw him that’s cool but he still got one shot white eyes and KOd by one single hit pre skip.

Jinbei stopped Akainus killing blow on Luffy showing much stronger CoA def, and endurance that Sanji ever has.

Jinbei intercepted and stopped katakuris attack on Luffy with a tea cup.

Jinbei stopped a crazy BMs attack with CoA then came back and blew her off the ship.

Sanji doesn’t have feats or portrayal on Jinbeis level at all. Getting sent flying by page one ain’t cutting it.


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## Sir Curlyhat (May 24, 2020)

_The Jimbe hype train will crash to hard by the end of this arc when he's exposed as someone who ends up looking at Zoro and Sanji as monsters way out of his reach 

I will be here for the Jimbe vs Franky threads though _


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## neonlight (May 24, 2020)

Jimbei has put God's fear in the hearts of Sanji stans

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sir Curlyhat (May 24, 2020)

neonlight said:


> Jimbei has put God's fear in the hearts of Sanji stans



_Jimbe's already riding with Robin, asking her about the times fans thought she's an M3 contender _


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## Gomu (May 24, 2020)

So from the feats of this weeks (5/24) chapter, statements from Zoro, and from the general showing of Apoo. Why do you think that Sanji is superior to Jinbe? Anyone that thinks so.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 25, 2020)

neonlight said:


> Jimbei has put God's fear in the hearts of Sanji stans


stole his girl (well she was never Sanjis tho)
stole his M3 spot
Winbei


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## Akakomuma (May 25, 2020)

Jinbei beats not just Sanji but even Luffy. This is a stomp.


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## Adhominem (May 26, 2020)

Middle trio Sanji can probably take this with Raid Suit

Usopp needs to make a Raid Suit for Jinbe that is a portable water tank suit so he can be knight of the fishtank


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## neonlight (May 26, 2020)

Adhominem said:


> *Middle trio *Sanji can probably take this with Raid Suit
> 
> Usopp needs to make a Raid Suit for Jinbe that is a portable water tank suit so he can be knight of the fishtank


Are you including Franky? Then it's suuuperrr trio


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## Adhominem (May 26, 2020)

neonlight said:


> Are you including Franky? Then it's suuuperrr trio



How heedless of me. 
Middle quartet Sanji can probably suit this with Raid suit


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## Nox (May 26, 2020)

G4 Luffy 
Zoro [Enma] - Sanji [RS]
G2/G3 Luffy - Jinbe
Zoro - Sanji
Franky
Robin - Brook
Chopper 
Nami - Usopp
Jinbe's accolades put him above most SH prior to their power-ups. However, at this juncture Luffy is being prepped to enter in Yonko status. Translation legitimate Top Tier. Whatever your opinions about them Zoro and Sanji are his pillars. Enma and RS give him the perfect excuse to demonstrate significant power jumps. IDK why people aren't mentioning Boundman confronted Linlin fresh into her Hunger Pangs. Jinbe pushed one who'd been hours into her rampage = more reduced strength. Also its not like G3 has pushed back Fujitora or Kaido. Those two are in the same general physical bracket. Finally, if there's a Water Jinbe version, you're lying to yourself if you think RS Sanji is superior. Fishmen become X10 stronger underwater. Water Jinbe at minimum Boundman level+

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (May 26, 2020)

I Don't know why this water jinbei version came into the discussion.
Water jinbei would solo kaido/Big Mom/Whitebeard at the same time. Who the fuck is beating jinbei in water .


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## Corax (May 26, 2020)

Sanji isn't a DF user,but in water he has no chance obviously. He still needs to breath as he is a human.


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## Gomu (May 26, 2020)

Corax said:


> Sanji isn't a DF user,but in water he has no chance obviously. He still needs to breath as he is a human.


I wouldn't take it that far due to Sanji having Water Walking as an ability, it's just that Jinbe's firepower grows when he has water. He should be one of the fastest characters on the crew. It's just that Jinbe has dealt with faster, on land at that. It's M3 headcanon more than anything, the only thing we know for sure is that G4 Luffy SHOULD be stronger than Jinbe. And Luffy has shown said feats like clashing with Big Mom's Haki-infused Elbow attack which is an incredible feat as Big Mom's physical strength has always been her pronounced strength, and she can clash with Kaido. Jinbe has blocked and pushed aside punches from characters like Akainu and that feat shouldn't be denounced as Akainu can also keep Whitebeard from moving his Bisento with just his foot.


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## Mylesime (May 26, 2020)

Let's discuss an aerial fight too and see who would have the edge .
More seriously this discussion comes down to the extent of jinbei's progression according to each voters since his fight against Ace.
Because in my opinion, he hasn't grown much since then, at least Nothing in the storytelling suggest a significant improvement of the character's ability. Jinbei looks like the same honorable, and significant figure in the story since his first appearence.

  We've seen Sanji's limits prior to obtaining the raid suit.
He was portrayed as close in strength to character like Vergo, Smoker, Daifuku, Oven. In short like a veteran in a yonkou crew.
I would roughly put someone like Page One on that tier. The tobi roppo was used as an hype tool for sanji, without discrediting his corpse being portrayed as one of the weakest,and being good at taking a beating.
Anyway he wasn't demoted from his position (unlike someone like snack for example) and* Apoo and all the headliners still have to prove themselves in order to gain a place.* Portrayal Wise, this shows us that Page One is still outranking them, and he's still perceived within the crew as one of the 6 strongest headliners, until someone proves himself by capturing luffy according to their last order. Despite all of Apoos credentials, he's still has to prove himself.

  During their fights, Page One used his full form, and his hybrid form, while Sanji didn't even use fire, and was using the suit for the first time, a suit we know will be modified by Franky in order to be more suited to the user.
That clearly puts Sanji as significantly stronger than Page One, knowing that  the tobi roppo are a unit where Page One is still considered as good enough, at worst this puts Sanji on par with the strongest members of the unit, allowed by Kaido to fight for an all star spot.
There is no point to organize clash or assassination in the plot if the strongest tobbi ropo can't challenge the all stars.

All in all this puts Sanji as a threat to the weakest commanders at worst. That's where i would place Jinbei and Ace at his death in the big picture.

  Regarding jinbei's feats, while impressive, it doesn't change the fact that he would be murdered by aka inu and big Mom* at full strength* in an extended fight.
And we've seen reiju tank an attack from Big Mom, as well as Sanji and Luffy stopping Big Mom finishing blow to his sister.
Luffy only used gear 3, and sanji matched him…...that was prior to the raid suit, who increases the character weakness (his durability), as well as his power (thanks to the propulsor).
Following the same idea all of his previous strengths are improved: mobility (flight), evasiveness (can become invisible), speed. And sanji's speed was highlighted against Vergo and Oven, as well as his COO with his feat against katakuri ( Oda clearly wanted to showcase a proficiency. We've also seen in punk hazard that despite being in Nami's body he was more suited than zoro for rescuing and locating kinemon body's part).

  While decreasing jinbei's previous advantages, mainly his durability, Sanji was portrayed as on par in this category with an ancien zoan, on top of his previous stats , he now has a shield with the cape, and an armor with the suit (armor that helped reiju tank a blow from big mom, even tough sanji doesn't have the hardened skin......yet), it's coupled up with his haki.
  It would be a tough fight no doubt , no matter who would win, but i Don't see many areas where the fishman got  clearly the upper hand frankly.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 26, 2020)

Nox said:


> Zoro [Enma] - Sanji [RS]




 > sanji


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## Luis209 (May 26, 2020)

Sanji should be stronger. He'll always be part of Monster trio and will have more room to progress than Jinbei.

Oda already mirrored both of them in Fishman Island and if you want to argue that Jinbei didn't join cause of powerlevels then and that he could be a bit stronger than Sanji by that time, now it's a different story.

With the suit Sanji should be considerably stronger than Jinbei. I still believe he'll beat Queen, but even if he doesn't, Oda will shows us clearly Sanji is the third strongest in the crew.


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## neonlight (May 26, 2020)

The crew dynamics have changed. It's 2 + 2 + 3 + 3.


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## Strobacaxi (May 26, 2020)

neonlight said:


> The crew dynamics have changed. It's 2 + 2 + 3 + 3.


Nah, it's 1+3+3+3

Luffy stands alone


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## neonlight (May 26, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Nah, it's 1+3+3+3
> 
> Luffy stands alone


Let's see after the end of Wano.


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## YonkoDrippy (Sep 1, 2020)

Is Sanji actually stronger than jinbe at this point? Personally I feel like Jinbe is stronger. Who wins in a fight?


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## Corax (Sep 1, 2020)

RS Sanji has invisibility,but his fire attacks can be countered by water and even with them I doubt that he can match Cognac or magma fist. Jinbei is just too durable and has greater endurance. He can outlast him high or extreme diff I think.


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## Lord Melkor (Sep 1, 2020)

I think that Sanji with suit should be stronger than Jimbei, not sure how much.


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## Dunno (Sep 1, 2020)

Sanji most likely takes it. I'd say high to very high diff.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 1, 2020)

As soon as Jinbei joined the crew he got weaker than sanji if he leaves the crew he might have a chance

Reactions: Like 1


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## AlphcoT (Sep 1, 2020)

Jinbei=Water Sanji=Fire
Water>Fire
*Jinbei>Sanji*
Jinbei's water-based attacks hard counters Sanji's strongest attacks which are fire-based.


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## Shanks (Sep 1, 2020)

Sanji was already portrayal to be similar level to Jimbie in Fishman island. Sanji also have better progression and now he has the raid suite.


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## Corax (Sep 2, 2020)

Sabo said:


> Sanji was already portrayal to be similar level to Jimbie in Fishman island. Sanji also have better progression and now he has the raid suite.


They just had the same gag opponent (Wadatsumi is hard to take seriously). It doesn't mean that FI Sanji can stop magma fist or Cognac,or punch BM away from Sunny.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shanks (Sep 2, 2020)

Corax said:


> They just had the same gag opponent (Wadatsumi is hard to take seriously). It doesn't mean that FI Sanji can stop magma fist or Cognac,or punch BM away from Sunny.


I’m pretty sure he can.


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## Corax (Sep 2, 2020)

Sabo said:


> I’m pretty sure he can.


I can't see how really. Especially FI Sanji,if PH Sanji's leg was broken by massively weaker Vergo (who isn't even remotely close to BM and Akainu).


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## Draco Bolton (Sep 2, 2020)

It's Jinbei when RS Sanji will be done with him

Reactions: Like 2


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## Vivo Diez (Sep 2, 2020)

Corax said:


> They just had the same gag opponent (Wadatsumi is hard to take seriously). It doesn't mean that FI Sanji can stop magma fist or Cognac,or punch BM away from Sunny.





Corax said:


> I can't see how really. Especially FI Sanji,if PH Sanji's leg was broken by massively weaker Vergo (who isn't even remotely close to BM and Akainu).


Bit of an in-genuine statement, considering BM was way weakened up to that point. Fucking Chopper was holding off attacks from her.

The Akainu vs Jimbei exchange wasn't an equal exchange, far from it:


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 2, 2020)

Whole cake is used to say BM is an embarrassment until it comes time to pretend Jinbei is ending the M3


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## Fel1x (Sep 2, 2020)

im not even sure Jinbei can win against Sanji without suit 
but more likely he can
Suit Sanji soloes though


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## Corax (Sep 3, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> Bit of an in-genuine statement, considering BM was way weakened up to that point. Fucking Chopper was holding off attacks from her.
> 
> The Akainu vs Jimbei exchange wasn't an equal exchange, far from it:


Wasn't equal of course,since Akainu is far stronger. But he at least stopped his fist without terrible injuries and much pain. Akainu is much above Vergo in anything. I am sure Jinbei can tank Vergo for days.


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## Vivo Diez (Sep 3, 2020)

Corax said:


> Wasn't equal of course,since Akainu is far stronger. *But he at least stopped his fist without terrible injuries and much pain*. Akainu is much above Vergo in anything. I am sure Jinbei can tank Vergo for days.


But I literally posted the panel of him going "ugh" and holding his burnt up hand lmao

Also, Vergo isn't a valid benchmark anymore when Sanji has feats fighting flying six and even King, not sure why you keep bringing Vergo up.


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## OrlandoSky (Sep 4, 2020)

Isn't Jinbe still above the monster trio or has Luffy finally power-creeped passed Ace's tier?


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## Gianfi (Sep 4, 2020)

Sanji high/extreme diff


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## Quipchaque (Sep 4, 2020)

Sanji has been stronger ever since Fishman island. Having more feats =/= being stronger. Oda clearly portrayed Sanji as the main player in Fishman Island when him and Jimbei teamed up against Wadatsumi. And given that Oda went up from weaker to stronger character im showing their battles on Fishman Island it should be beyond obvious that Sanji was always meant to be stronger.


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## killfox (Sep 4, 2020)

Jinbei wrecks Sanji with unavoidable internal air punches


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## Ekkologix (Sep 5, 2020)

OrlandoSky said:


> Isn't Jinbe still above the monster trio or has Luffy finally power-creeped passed Ace's tier?



r u still in 2010 fam 

anyway OT: RS sanji should take it with around high diff give or take.


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## OrlandoSky (Sep 5, 2020)

Go D. Usopp said:


> r u still in 2010 fam


Doesn't answer my question "fam".


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## Ekkologix (Sep 5, 2020)

OrlandoSky said:


> Doesn't answer my question "fam".



Luffy surpassed Ace the moment he 1 shot that pacifista (whcih was 2010 on the manga lol). Ace is old school xd.

If we are to scale MF Ace to the timeskip, he would be around Vergo/Smoker level, which are weaker than even Sanji, let alone the other M3.


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## killfox (Sep 5, 2020)

Literally not even Luffy has the feats or portrayal that Jinbei has currently. Luffy has Advanced CoA? Cool Jinbei stopped an Admirals magma fist KILLING BLOW and his CoA was strong enough to defend against a yonkous attack. He also blew the said Yonkou away with a single attack. 

Sanji on the other hand couldn't KO Page one even with the raid suit. Jinbei wins. Sanji needs more CoA and strength feats. His durability is cool with raid suit, but its meaningless against FM Karate.


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## Mylesime (Sep 5, 2020)

Luffy beat Katakuri, which surpasses anything done by jinbei in the serie. Portrayal then push it down our throats, luffy is the one giving orders to his subordinates.
Durability wise, that's a game changer. On top of his own defense, he's got the shield force and the armor.
To finish Sanji is far superior in terms of mobility and evasiveness. Sanji was able to get away from drake and hawkins while carrying nami, robin and more importantly shinobu. They did not notice his presence while invisible.
Then he saved Momonosuke without being detected by Queen or King, Kaido's top commanders. Jinbei would struggle to catch him  let alone bypass his defense.
We can't just simply ignore that feat, if we're talking about feats when did Jinbei displayed a superior level of COO compared to the two supernovas or the two commanders. Where is the feat that would show him bypassing sanji's defense.

Sanji is stronger than jinbei.


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## killfox (Sep 5, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> *Luffy beat Katakuri, which surpasses anything done by jinbei in the serie. *


Blowing away a Yonkou is superior my dude. Only reason people downplay Jinbeis feat is because BMs mental issues.* If Jinbei blew away WB, KAIDO, or BB with a single attack you wouldn’t be saying Luffy is superior*. Problem is BM is on their level weather you like it or not. Same with Akainu. *Jinbei literally stopped Akainu, the guy who the creator said would find one piece In a MONTH.* The same person who has feats against WB. Luffy has no such feats his best feats are against Katakuri.

BM beat someone around Katakuri/King/Queen level with no Haki or DF and. Against Jinbei Both BM and Akainu were using DF.

Recap? Luffy beat Katakuri
BM someone on that level Queen with no memory or powers
Jinbei fought against a yonkou and admiral.
Somehow u say Luffy has better feats? 

Katakuri is the first mate BM is the captain and is stronger. So blowing away the captain is A WAY BETTER FEAT. Luffy couldn't make BM budge even with using G4th.



Mylesime said:


> Portrayal then push it down our throats, luffy is the one giving orders to his subordinates.


Obviously Luffy is the captain and? Jinbei is a captain as well, captain of the Fisherman pirates, hes the only other Captain on the SHS. You can tell how high his portrayal when Kid and Law (Luffys Rivals) Flipped out over him joining the SHS.


Mylesime said:


> Durability wise, that's a game changer. On top of his own defense, he's got the shield force and the armor.


Durability doesnt matter against Jinbes Fisherman Karate. He literally attacks the water inside your body. Sanji will feel every punch like hes not wearing the raid suit.



Mylesime said:


> To finish Sanji is far superior in terms of mobility and evasiveness. Sanji was able to get away from drake and hawkins while carrying nami, robin and more importantly shinobu. They did not notice his presence while invisible.


Thats a feat of the suit not Sanji. Anyone with an invisibility suit could have pulled it off. Also i realize your name dropping but Hawkins, and drake dont compare to BM and Akainu. Honestly they dont even compare to pre-skip Jinbei one shotting a fellow warlord.



Mylesime said:


> Then he saved Momonosuke without being detected by Queen or King, Kaido's top commanders. Jinbei would struggle to catch him  let alone bypass his defense.


Your giving Sanji too much props. If Page one can fight against him while hes invisible, tank his attacks, and send Sanji flying through multiple buildings, Jinbei can do much better. Also as i keep pointing out Sanji cant tank FM Karate, its internal.



Mylesime said:


> We can't just simply ignore that feat, if we're talking about feats when did Jinbei displayed a superior level of COO compared to the two supernovas or the two commanders.


What CoO feats do the SN commanders have? Sanji has better CoO than Jinbei ill agree but that doesnt mean he wins. Page one was tossing Sanji around. Sanji has done 0 damage to anyone else on the island besides page one LOL



Mylesime said:


> Where is the feat that would show him bypassing sanji's defense.


 *Your proof is in* *One piece chapter 629 PAGE 3 and 4. *



**Drops MIC**



Mylesime said:


> Sanji is stronger than jinbei.


Maybe in headcannon not by feats.

Also go read the latest chapter as well for another Jinbei feat


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## Mylesime (Sep 5, 2020)

killfox said:


> Blowing away a Yonkou is superior my dude. Only reason people downplay Jinbeis feat is because BMs mental issues.* If Jinbei blew away WB, KAIDO, or BB with a single attack you wouldn’t be saying Luffy is superior*. Problem is BM is on their level weather you like it or not. Same with Akainu. *Jinbei literally stopped Akainu, the guy who the creator said would find one piece In a MONTH.* The same person who has feats against WB. Luffy has no such feats his best feats are against Katakuri.


There is an issue that you can't push aside Big Mom is Big Mom.
Franky has a similar feat just in the last chapter, is he stronger than Luffy too?
You know who else stopped aka inu *momentarly*, Ivankov and Crocodile.
Buggy evaded him.
None of these isolated actions can match Luffy actually beating Katakuri....... specially since he had to went through surgery after 10 seconds of opposition 
So no, jinbei's feats aren't superior to luffy's.
With the same thought process i could rank half the strawhats including robin above zoro, claiming that they had feats against a yonkou/Big Mom which he doesn't. That doesn't make sense.
Defeating a yonkou first mate in a 1 VS 1 outclasses anything shown from jinbei, including short clashes.




killfox said:


> BM beat someone around Katakuri/King/Queen level with no Haki or DF and. Against Jinbei Both BM and Akainu were using DF.
> 
> Recap? Luffy beat Katakuri
> BM someone on that level Queen with no memory or powers
> ...



Your reasoning doesn't make sense and isn't rigorous.
You're assuming Big Mom didn't use haki, i doubt it, when disturbed and when the yonkou 's haki is affected, they bleed and get injured (the scabbards raid and big mom injuring her knees are proof of that). Big mom used haki against Queen, not hardening though.
With your thought process i could "prove" that *robin *is stronger than *zoro *based on her latest feats, it would be bullshit and everybody knows it.
*Blowing away big mom isn't a better feat than actually defeating katakuri.
*


killfox said:


> Obviously Luffy is the captain and? Jinbei is a captain as well, captain of the Fisherman pirates, hes the only other Captain on the SHS. You can tell how high his portrayal when Kid and Law (Luffys Rivals) Flipped out over him joining the SHS.
> Durability doesnt matter against Jinbes Fisherman Karate. He literally attacks the water inside your body. Sanji will feel every punch like hes not wearing the raid suit.



I'm not criticizing Jinbei, he's a great character, one thing doesn't change though anything that hypes him hypes luffy like with all of his other subordinates. Mugiwara was the one hyped by Law and Kidd through Jinbei.
What are you talking about, durability does matter hence why his attacks did nothing to Big Mom, it wasn't enough to totally bypass said durability.
It's your headcanon. You don't know how a clash between Jinbei's fishman karate and his water manipulation and sanji's haki + own durability + the suit durability + the cape shield force would go.
You're assuming that Jinbei's attack power and water vibrations would go through all these layers including a shield force.
I disagree Jinbei would struggle to hurt Sanji if he defends.
And that's assuming a successful hit, because like with Drake, Hawkins, Queen and King , *Sanji has feats against very strong characters, some stronger than Jinbei who failed to locate and touch him.
*


killfox said:


> Thats a feat of the suit not Sanji. Anyone with an invisibility suit could have pulled it off. Also i realize your name dropping but Hawkins, and drake dont compare to BM and Akainu. Honestly they dont even compare to pre-skip Jinbei one shotting a fellow warlord.
> 
> Your giving Sanji too much props. If Page one can fight against him while hes invisible, tank his attacks, and send Sanji flying through multiple buildings, Jinbei can do much better. Also as i keep pointing out Sanji cant tank FM Karate, its internal.



You go ahead and start threads about  *gomu gomu no VS ope ope no mi*. We discuss characters with all their weapons generally, not their tools.
The suit is a tool, hence why discussing a fight involving raiju, niiji, or yonji would not be the same......
Drake and Hawkins are comparable to Zoro, Law or Sanji and all of them would shit on Pre time skip Moria skull.
Heck Law was a warlord, Ace refused the spot and draw against Jinbei.
Sanji beat the living shit out of Page 1, both of their durability were highlighted. The same Page 1 who is still running despite having been hit by a Gear 3rd punch at point blank.

  You're the one giving too much credit to fishman karate, we've seen characters like Wadatsumi endure it. The scale of these types of attacks varies, *it's similar to happo Navy Hasshoken or Ryou*, doesn't mean you're going through anything.....
*
  Then you don't touch upon the fact that it goes both ways, Sanji too has a skill that inflict internal damages, with the diable jambe heat. Sanji too can bypass jinbei's durability and his defense.*



killfox said:


> What CoO feats do the SN commanders have? Sanji has better CoO than Jinbei ill agree but that doesnt mean he wins. Page one was tossing Sanji around. Sanji has done 0 damage to anyone else on the island besides page one LOL



Stop it, Sanji fucked up Page 1, he played with him like with a ball.
You don't get it, Jinbei doesn't have favorable COO feats.
And Sanji's invisibility was proven effective against supernovas and yonkou commanders.
You're assuming that sanji would struggle against Fishman karate while he does have durability feats, yet you're way more lenient with Jinbei when it comes to his handling of the invisibility and flight parts.

Jinbei would struggle to put down raid suit Sanji

Let's agree to disagree, we're speculating because they didn't go all out durant the war, it will be settled soon.
Based on the elements at our disposal, Sanji's got the upper hand for me.


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## Great Potato (Sep 5, 2020)

Go D. Usopp said:


> Luffy surpassed Ace the moment he 1 shot that pacifista (whcih was 2010 on the manga lol). Ace is old school xd.
> 
> If we are to scale MF Ace to the timeskip, he would be around Vergo/Smoker level, which are weaker than even Sanji, let alone the other M3.



Why would one-shotting a Pacifista put someone above Ace? I highly doubt that's beyond his capabilities with the performance he gave against Blackbeard, the Entei especially is still a very impressive attack to this day, and his loss to Akainu isn't really that damning considering the level Sakazuki operates on.

I'd still bet on FI Luffy defeating him because he had G4 in his back-pocket, but I'm not understanding the Pacifista comparison.



killfox said:


> Obviously Luffy is the captain and? Jinbei is a captain as well, captain of the Fisherman pirates, *hes the only other Captain on the SHS*.



Brook became the captain of the Rumbar Pirates after Yorki passed away.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ekkologix (Sep 5, 2020)

Great Potato said:


> Why would one-shotting a Pacifista put someone above Ace? I highly doubt that's beyond his capabilities with the performance he gave against Blackbeard, the Entei especially is still a very impressive attack to this day, and his loss to Akainu isn't really that damning considering the level Sakazuki operates on.
> 
> I'd still bet on FI Luffy defeating him because he had G4 in his back-pocket, but I'm not understanding the Pacifista comparison.



pacifista 1 shotting is just the symbol of luffy entering the time skip thats all. Thats when he surpassed ace.


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 5, 2020)

Jinbe in water > RS Sanji on land > Jinbe > Sanji

Sanji is still considered 3rd strongest in crew because raid suit is basically standard now, Water Jinbe is not common


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## killfox (Sep 5, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> There is an issue that you can't push aside Big Mom is Big Mom.


Not sure what your saying. You cant push aside Big Mom is Big mom? Explain. 



Mylesime said:


> Franky has a similar feat just in the last chapter, is he stronger than Luffy too?


Franky knocked BM down. Jinbei blew her away. Literally not comparable at all. Unless you think knocking over a car is the same as sending it flying. Nice try tho. 

Also keep in mind even whitebeard was hurt by fodder blades, but it doesnt make him any less impressive. Had a fodder BLOWN HIM AWAY WITH A SINGLE ATTACK LIKE JINBEI DID TO BM then everyone would say whoever did that to WB was a beast no? Blowing away a yonkou is a huge feat weather you like it our not. 

BM wasnt hurt at all  by Frabky, jjust pissed off. Also Franky would literally have done more damage to old WB hitting him in the face then he did to BM and no one would bat an eye. Anyone can get hit, but 0 damage is 0 damage at the end of the day. 




Mylesime said:


> You know who else stopped aka inu *momentarly*, Ivankov and Crocodile.


Did Iva clash and stop any attacks from Akainu? No? Then why bring it up at all  

Did Croc clash with Akainu? No he used sand to slice him from a distance, so why bring it up as if it equals Jinbei stopping him with his bare hands?


Mylesime said:


> Buggy evaded him.


Not sure how Buggy is relevant at all Buggy cant do anything to a Yonkou. 



Mylesime said:


> None of these isolated actions can match Luffy actually beating Katakuri....... specially since he had to went through surgery after 10 seconds of opposition


Your right None of the isolated instances you just named are superior to Luffy beating Katakuri, but I never said they were. *JINBEI IS WHO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOWEVER. NOT CROC NOT BUGGY NOT IVA. *None of those characters you named have feats on the level of Jinbei. I see where you were trying to go with it but it dont work like that my dude. 



Mylesime said:


> So no, jinbei's feats aren't superior to luffy's.


*Not sure if you realized it or not, but your stating feats weaker than jinbei preformed to prove Jinbeis feats aren't superior to Luffy?* Your making no sense none of those characters could send a yonkou flying or stop Akainu with their BARE HANDS. Try again



Mylesime said:


> With the same thought process i could rank half the strawhats including robin above zoro, claiming that they had feats against a yonkou/Big Mom which he doesn't. That doesn't make sense.


How? Which one of them has directly confronted a Yonkou and sent them flying? Who has stopped an admirals killing blow with bare hands? Who has one shot a warlord with a single punch? Who has flipped over a yonkou? Who has fought a logia for 5 days straight? None of the Shs can do this. Luffys record was what 11 or 12 hours with help? 

Replace Sanji with Jinbei and youll quickly see that Sanji cannot replicate the said feats. 




Mylesime said:


> Defeating a yonkou first mate in a 1 VS 1 outclasses anything shown from jinbei, including short clashes.


 Luffy attacked BM with G4h and did nothing and passed out after a single attack. Jinbei defended against her attack with minimal damage (named haki defence tech) then blew her into the ocean with a single attack. 




Mylesime said:


> Your reasoning doesn't make sense and isn't rigorous.
> *You're assuming Big Mom didn't use haki, i doubt it*,


So here you say im assuming BM didnt use haki and share your opinion that you "doubt it"



Mylesime said:


> when disturbed and when the yonkou 's haki is affected, they bleed and get injured (the scabbards raid and big mom injuring her knees are proof of that). *Big mom used haki against Queen, not hardening though.*


Here you assert that BM did use haki even tho the manga never said that and went out of its way to show her lack of awarness of her powers. Show me the pannel of her using haki and ill concede. Let me help you it doesnt exsist, out of everything youve said so far this is by far the most headcannon thing youve said. So ill say again prove she was using haki. If you cant you have to chalk that up to BM being a beast since she was a kid and beat QUEEN with her natrual beastly stats. 





Mylesime said:


> With your thought process i could "prove" that *robin *is stronger than *zoro *based on her latest feats, it would be bullshit and everybody knows it.


You actually cant tho thats the funny partt. Neither Zorro or Robin has stopped a magma fist killing blow or sent an Yonkou flying. Jinbei sent her flying again robin just rolled her "zaru 



Mylesime said:


> *Blowing away big mom isn't a better feat than actually defeating katakuri.*



Its not just blowing away BM. Its stopping an admirals magma fist killing blow, blowing away a yonkou with a single hit, throwing a yonkou over his shoulder etc. Luffy couldnt make BM budge even after defeating katakuri. Luffy doesnt seem to have comparable feats yet. Also Luffy would have lost but Katakuri hurt himself on purpose  you can say what you want but that was the reason he won. 



Mylesime said:


> I'm not criticizing Jinbei, he's a great character, one thing doesn't change though anything that hypes him hypes luffy like with all of his other subordinates. Mugiwara was the one hyped by Law and Kidd through Jinbei.


Why do you think Jinbei caused that reaction? Because of his feats. Feats Luffy has yet to repicate. Say what you want, but currently Luffy has not shown to be able to replicate Jinbeis feats. 



Mylesime said:


> What are you talking about, durability does matter hence why his attacks did nothing to Big Mom, it wasn't enough to totally bypass said durability.


When I say durability doesnt matter I mean you cant block it with your suit, or with your arms. It literally will bypass all those and attack you internally every time with every attack. Luffys attacks can be dodged, Jinbeis cant. So every punch in Sanjis general direction will mean an invisible unavoidable long range attack that attacks internally. Sanji isnt BM he will crumble from multiple internal attacks. Id even wager Vagabond drill could oneshot Sanji with a clean hit. 



Mylesime said:


> It's your headcanon. You don't know how a clash between Jinbei's fishman karate and his water manipulation and sanji's haki + own durability + the suit durability + the cape shield force would go.


Based on Jinbeis explination we know exactally how it would work. Are you telling me your making up that the raid suit can some how shield sanji from getting the water in his body hit? As i said before it ignores durability and attacks internally. So i hope Sanji has strong organs lol 



Mylesime said:


> You're assuming that Jinbei's attack power and water vibrations would go through all these layers including a shield force.
> I disagree Jinbei would struggle to hurt Sanji if he defends.


Sanji has no where near the level of durability as BM. If vagabond drill can bypass a yonkou (top 4 pirates in the world) it can clearly bypass Sanjis defense. In fact since BM is much stronger than Sanji you have to prove Sanji can do significant damage to jinbei. Jinbei has far better durability and endurance feats than Sanji does. 



Mylesime said:


> And that's assuming a successful hit, because like with Drake, Hawkins, Queen and King , *Sanji has feats against very strong characters, some stronger than Jinbei who failed to locate and touch him.*


 BM wrecked Queen already with no memory. She would do the same to King Drake and Hawkins. Akainu and BM are far stronger than anyone Sanji has fought. 




Mylesime said:


> You go ahead and start threads about  *gomu gomu no VS ope ope no mi*. We discuss characters with all their weapons generally, not their tools.
> The suit is a tool, hence why discussing a fight involving raiju, niiji, or yonji would not be the same...


This added nothing to the debate. 



Mylesime said:


> Drake and Hawkins are comparable to Zoro, Law or Sanji and all of them would shit on Pre time skip Moria skull.


How many of them currently have the physical strength and haki strong enough to stop Akainu with their bare hands? Remember Jinbei did this PRE SKIP. If the characters above cant do it currently then the debate is over. Jinbei is stronger. 

*Let me put it into perspective for you. There are only 4 people in the entire manga to stop Akainu in his tracks. 
WHITEBEARD, SHANKS, MARCO, & JINBEI.*

Whitebeard was the WSM and beat him, Shanks a fellow yonkou stopped him in his tracks with his sword (even shanks didnt dare try to stop him with his bare hands), Marco is literally a regenerating phoenix, and then theres Jinbei. A fishman whos natrually weak against extreme heat yet he did it. Magmas average temp is *700 °C all the way yup to 1300 °C. *This magma however was part of a living being and was constatly being pushed at Jinbei but he held it back with one hand. Theres no way to downplay this feat. 

He shares the feat with legends. 



Mylesime said:


> Heck Law was a warlord, Ace refused the spot and draw against Jinbei.


One shotting Law would also be an impressive feat. Not sure what your point is 


Mylesime said:


> Sanji beat the living shit out of Page 1, both of their durability were highlighted. The same Page 1 who is still running despite having been hit by a Gear 3rd punch at point blank.


Page one didnt loose and was still ready to fight Sanji, yet was KOd briefly by a single G3 punch. Luffy is way stronger than Sanji. 





Mylesime said:


> You're the one giving too much credit to fishman karate, we've seen characters like Wadatsumi endure it. The scale of these types of attacks varies, *it's similar to happo Navy Hasshoken or Ryou*, doesn't mean you're going through anything.....


Endure? I never said Sanji would be Kod in one hit. Everyone can "endure" an attack but for how long. Also Wadatsumi got knocked hundres of feet into the air and Jinbei let Sanji finish him off. Are you saying that because Wadatsumi didnt get KOd Jinbeis attack is weak? Lol It litereally showed the attack pass through Wadatsumis entire body. 




Mylesime said:


> *  Then you don't touch upon the fact that it goes both ways, Sanji too has a skill that inflict internal damages, with the diable jambe heat. Sanji too can bypass jinbei's durability and his defense.*


Do you know the definition of internal damage? Fire burns but has to pass the skin to burn internally. Jinbei stopped magma which is shown and literally stated to be >>> Fire by manga cannon. Not only is magma much hotter than fire Jinbei fought someone who could produce fire for 5 days straight. While Luffy (Sanjis captain) has his best endurance feat sitting at 11 hours. 




Mylesime said:


> Stop it, Sanji fucked up Page 1, he played with him like with a ball.


Doesnt equate a win tho thats what my point is. Many people get beat up in OP and still win. 



Mylesime said:


> You don't get it, Jinbei doesn't have favorable COO feats.


You dont need CoO to win a fight in OP. Pre skip Luffy beat Hancocks sister who was a CoO master without knowing even the basics of haki  people tend to forget about that. Also Queen vs BM shows haki isnt some auto win. 




Mylesime said:


> And Sanji's invisibility was proven effective against supernovas and yonkou commanders.
> You're assuming that sanji would struggle against Fishman karate while he does have durability feats,


Imagine i throw a punch at your stomach and you block it with both arms slightly taking damage on the arms. Thats cool now imagine i throw the same punch and you block but it goes through and hits your organs internally. Its like Rokuogan that Lucci used. He couldnt hurt Luffy with regular attacks but your organs have no defence. Thats the same here. Sanji better have some organ durability feats. 

Remember Jinbei made Luffy bleed with a SINGLE punch. Why did Luffy bleed? Becasue HIS ORGANS WERE ATTACKED DIRECTLY. You can train you physical body all you want but theres no defence against your organs getting hit as show with Doflamingo. 




Mylesime said:


> yet you're way more lenient with Jinbei when it comes to his handling of the invisibility and flight parts.


The invisibility or flying isnt as much as a factor as you think. Sanji still has to attack and Jinbei can feel where he is even if he has to take an attack or two. FOr instance even with invisibility Sanji cant beat Zorro or Luffy. And Jinbei has better feats against stronger people than they do. 




Jinbei would struggle to put down raid suit Sanji [/QUOTE]It was very clear that Luffy and Jinbei both held back when they saw Robin. They still attacked yes, but they didnt use full power because they thought she couldnt dodge. 



Mylesime said:


> Let's agree to disagree, we're speculating because they didn't go all out durant the war, it will be settled soon.
> Based on the elements at our disposal, Sanji's got the upper hand for me.



Compare who fought the stronger opponents more consistantly and you will clearly see that Jinbei has fought much stronger opponents much more often than Sanji and therefore has better feats. Its not that hard to understand. Manga fact.


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## killfox (Sep 5, 2020)

Go D. Usopp said:


> pacifista 1 shotting is just the symbol of luffy entering the time skip thats all. Thats when he surpassed ace.


Ace had already been to the new world. I don't think one shotting a pacifista proves superiority to Ace at all. If anything Id say Aces pre skip feat of destroying like 5-10 ships in a single attack dwarf even many post skip feats. Not to mention his BB fight.


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## killfox (Sep 5, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Jinbe in water > RS Sanji on land > Jinbe > Sanji
> 
> Sanji is still considered 3rd strongest in crew because raid suit is basically standard now, Water Jinbe is not common


Still considered? As per the crew dynamics? Or by feats?

I can understand the crew dynamics but by feats he's not there yet.


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 5, 2020)

killfox said:


> Still considered? As per the crew dynamics? Or by feats?
> 
> I can understand the crew dynamics but by feats he's not there yet.


 crew dynamics

feats will be seen by the end of the arc


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## killfox (Sep 5, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> crew dynamics
> 
> feats will be seen by the end of the arc


True. Also i am not saying Sanji cant be stronger im just saying currently he hasnt shown to be.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Sep 5, 2020)

@killfox
I'm not getting into that kind of debate. Too many unknown elements, too much assumptions.
Our knowledge of Sanji's durability are evolving while we're talking thanks to new "feats".
Simply, you don't mention the fact that Big Mom was weakened during Jinbei's feat, and again different interpretation of these events, what Luffy did in the mirror world outclasses anything that Jinbei ever did, i won't convince you of the contrary, you won't convince me either.

  Portrayal and hype are the main elements why i and others put Sanji currently above Jinbei, we can't have an accurate evaluation without seeing Sanji's current limits. Based on feat neither Zoro or Sanji woud be stronger than jinbei (collapsing against Kamazou, being defeated by Doflamingo), but there is no point disscussing prior versions of the characters. *We don't know (positively or negatively) what they are truly made of.*
yet it seems clear to me that they are currently stronger with their PU*, *Zoro seems fated to challenge Kaido with others, Sanji seems fated to deal with King.

  Let's wait and see.


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## killfox (Sep 5, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> @killfox
> I'm not getting into that kind of debate. Too many unknown elements, too much assumptions.
> Our knowledge of Sanji's durability are evolving while we're talking thanks to new "feats".
> Simply, you don't mention the fact that Big Mom was weakened during Jinbei's feat,


Yes she was weakened but a weakened Yonkou is still a Yonkou. Old WB was a "Weakened Yonkou" and was still the WSM. Yet he was getting hurt by fodder attacks. If Jinbei blew away WB after taking damage from Squardo id wager people would hail it as a great feat. There wouldnt be 
a bunch of people saying "Well Wb was weakened"

Keep in mind a weakend BM still didnt get hurt and wouldnt get hurt by fodder blades like WB did. They both have their own strengths and weakenesses. 



Mylesime said:


> and again different interpretation of these events, what Luffy did in the mirror world outclasses anything that Jinbei ever did, i won't convince you of the contrary, you won't convince me either.


Id say fighting anyone around your level for hours is an impressive feat. Luffy fought for 11 hours. Yet Jinbei fought Ace for 5 days. Ace.....the son of the pirate King who is the only confirmed person with a higher growth potential than Luffy. Someone with so much potential that he had to be killed so Luffy could be PK. 

If you think Ace wasnt doing Mid battle willpower powerups like Luffy your smoking. Ace was extremely determined to kill WB



Mylesime said:


> Portrayal and hype are the main elements why i and others put Sanji currently above Jinbei, we can't have an accurate evaluation without seeing Sanji's current limits. Based on feat neither Zoro or Sanji woud be stronger than jinbei (collapsing against Kamazou, being defeated by Doflamingo), but there is no point disscussing prior versions of the characters. *We don't know (positively or negatively) what they are truly made of.*


Zorro has better attack power and more range than, while Sanji has better mobility and awareness.  Feat wise Zorro has much higher AP than Sanji, but RS Sanji looks more impressive until Zorro gets more Enma feats. 



Mylesime said:


> yet it seems clear to me that they are currently stronger with their PU*, *Zoro seems fated to challenge Kaido with others, Sanji seems fated to deal with King.
> 
> Let's wait and see.


Feats are incoming I agree with this.


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## Ruse (Sep 5, 2020)

RS Sanji > Jinbei > Base Sanji


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## convict (Sep 5, 2020)

Jinbe still has far better feats but something tells me Sanji has surpassed him.


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## Ekkologix (Sep 5, 2020)

killfox said:


> Ace had already been to the new world. I don't think one shotting a pacifista proves superiority to Ace at all. If anything Id say Aces pre skip feat of destroying like 5-10 ships in a single attack dwarf even many post skip feats. Not to mention his BB fight.



ur missunderstanding.

luffy coming out of the TS is already stronger than Ace. Even if he doesn't show his abilities right away, we know for fact that that version of Luffy surpassed Ace.

him one shotting pacifista is just symbolic moment to show the growth rate and his come bk from the timeskip as strong as ever.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

convict said:


> Jinbe still has far better feats but something tells me Sanji has surpassed him.


Jinbei got bloodied against g2 luffy and couldnt even beat a rookie ace.

Other than his feat of stopping Akainu for a few seconds, he really doesnt have "better feats".


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

killfox said:


> Yes she was weakened but a weakened Yonkou is still a Yonkou. Old WB was a "Weakened Yonkou" and was still the WSM. Yet he was getting hurt by fodder attacks. If Jinbei blew away WB after taking damage from Squardo id wager people would hail it as a great feat. There wouldnt be
> a bunch of people saying "Well Wb was weakened"



Except Jinbei didnt "blow" big mom away. He barely moved her a few feets. And yes, being weakened counts for a lot in one piece, with whitebeard being literally the worst example you could pull in that regard given that he would never have gotten so hurt in the first place if he wasnt so weakened.

Also g3 luffy knocked dragon kaido out of the skies, a far superior feat. As i recall, sanji matched g3 luffy in stopping a serious attack from a healthy, enraged big mom.



killfox said:


> Keep in mind a weakend BM still didnt get hurt and wouldnt get hurt by fodder blades like WB did. They both have their own strengths and weakenesses.


Big mom not getting hurt due to her invincible skin doesnt doesnt factor in her getting knocked a few feets back anymore than kaido's unbreakable dragon skin factored in g3 luffy knocking his ass out of the sky.



killfox said:


> Id say fighting anyone around your level for hours is an impressive feat. Luffy fought for 11 hours. Yet Jinbei fought Ace for 5 days. Ace.....the son of the pirate King who is the only confirmed person with a higher growth potential than Luffy. Someone with so much potential that he had to be killed so Luffy could be PK.


Lots of head canon here buddy.

Also jinbei got bloodied and knocked flat on his ass after a few minutes skirmish with g2 luffy. Make of that what you will.




killfox said:


> If you think Ace wasnt doing Mid battle willpower powerups like Luffy your smoking. Ace was extremely determined to kill WB



Again, more head canon.


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## convict (Sep 6, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Jinbei got bloodied against g2 luffy and couldnt even beat a rookie ace.
> 
> Other than his feat of stopping Akainu for a few seconds, he really doesnt have "better feats".



He blocked a full on meme attack and eventually when she powered through him he came right back.

Garp got bloodied by Luffy. So? Clearly if Jinbei is serious a G2 Luffy prior to Wano training can’t do shit to him.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

convict said:


> He blocked a full on meme attack and eventually when she powered through him he came right back.



Big mom was seriously weakened in that instant (perospero was scared she would just drop dead). Big mom when healthy can go blow for blow with kaido. Jinbei is no where close to that lvl.



convict said:


> Garp got bloodied by Luffy. So? Clearly if Jinbei is serious a G2 Luffy prior to Wano training can’t do shit to him.



Absolutely different circumstance. Also Luffy wasnt serious either. It was essentially a brawl between friend. Jinbei doesnt have the feats to suggest he could outright dominate g2 luffy the way you imply he could have.


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## convict (Sep 6, 2020)

If he blocked Akainu he can block meme. We don't know how weakened she was that is just speculation on your part. Her attack seemed about as strong as Akainu's with the exertion Jinbei used and amount of time he was able to block, so she was still top tier strong. The excuse that her weakness caused such a poor performance doesn't fly anymore as she has displayed just as bad performance while fully healthy. Her strength is top tier and he can temporarily defend against that.

And no it isn't. If you don't use Haki to defend yourself you are getting bloodied by G2 Luffy unless you are a freak of nature like meme or Kaido. Superficial wounds and nothing more of course. Just like the scabbards and fall damage.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

convict said:


> If he blocked Akainu he can block meme



Except he got sent flying by big mom. As for Akainu, he got stopped by the likes of ivankov and crocodile. Marineford overall is a pretty bad arc to powerscale off.



convict said:


> We don't know how weakened she was that is just speculation on your part.


Lets look at the facts then:
Big mom can match kaido for an extended period of time, same kaido who casually oneshot G4 luffy.

Further, G4 luffy nearly lost his arms to cracker. Yet jinbei's arms were just fine after said hit from big mom.

At this point, we can only come to any of the following conclusions:

Jinbei is far stronger and more durable than G4 luffy ; or
Big mom was much more weaker than she ordinarily could have been.
Given the facts, i think any reasonable man would assume the latter was the case. Moreso since even chopper kept that version of big mom at bay for a few seconds till jinbei returned and even her men were scared she could drop dead at any moment.





convict said:


> Her attack seemed about as strong as Akainu's with the exertion Jinbei used, so she was still top tier strong.



Again, no it didnt. Jinbei took her attack with zero damage. With Akainu, jinbei got his hands burnt after a few seconds and assumed his entire body would soon follow.



convict said:


> The excuse that her weakness caused such a poor performance doesn't fly anymore as she has displayed just as bad performance while fully healthy.



Has big mom had gag moments ? Absolutely.

Does that take away from her feat against a fellow younko and his top commander? No it doesnt.



convict said:


> Her strength is top tier and he can temporarily defend against that.


Against a severely weakened version, yes i agree.

And just to emphasize on my earlier point, Queen, an ancient zoan on top of being a top tier commander was helpless against a healthy but amnesaic big mom. Go ahead and make a thread with jinbei vs Queen. See how many votes jinbei gets.

Like seriously, the level of jinbei wank is reaching borderline zorotard level stuff.




convict said:


> And no it isn't. If you don't use Haki to defend yourself you are getting bloodied by G2 Luffy unless you are a freak of nature like meme or Kaido. Superficial wounds and nothing more. Just like the scabbards and fall damage.



Except jinbei can use full body haki, theres no way he could avoid all of g2 luffy hits. Further, luffy wasnt even using hardening or any of his more serious moves. Lastly, it wasnt just superficial wounds. Luffy scored a "white eyes" which in one piece translate to a knock out.


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## convict (Sep 6, 2020)

Eventually he got sent flying. He blocked it first which, considering the difference between Kaido and a FM level character is huge.

Neither Ivankov or Croc blocked a serious bloodlusted attack for an extended period.

And no Jinbei didn't take 0 damage. Clearly she drew a significant amount of blood when she sent him flying. Read the panel again.



> At this point, we can only come to any of the following conclusions:
> 
> Jinbei is far stronger and more durable than G4 luffy ; or
> Big mom was much more weaker than she ordinarily could have been.



Option 3:  Cracker's attack had more penetrating damage to the side of Luffy's arm while Big Mom's frontal attack had more force eventually knocking Jinbei away.



> Lastly, it wasnt just superficial wounds. Luffy scored a "white eyes" which in one piece translate to a knock out.



No it doesn't. Look at Luffy vs Magellan..and many more examples.



> And just to emphasize on my earlier point, Queen, an ancient zoan on top of being a top tier commander was helpless against a healthy but amnesaic big mom. Go ahead and make a thread with jinbei vs Queen. See how many votes jinbei gets.



I think Queen beats Jinbei. That doesn't take away from the fact that Jinbei's defensive feats surpass his. Queen likely wins in strengh and endurance.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

convict said:


> Eventually he got sent flying. He blocked it first which, considering the difference between Kaido and a FM level character is huge.



Again, considering the fact that big mom was heavily nerfed to the point to chopper kept her at bay for even a moment, its just not as impressive a feat as you wish it to be.



convict said:


> Neither Ivankov or Croc blocked as serious bloodlusted attack for an extended period.



Implying Akainu's attack aimed at finishing off a literal dead man (Ace) is a serious attack. 



convict said:


> And no Jinbei didn't take 0 damage. Clearly she drew blood and when she sent him flying. Read the panel again



Reread the panel and my point still stands. Cracker damn near chopped luffy's arms off and kaido oneshot him. Comparing either of those to a light laceration is laughable.



convict said:


> Option 3: Cracker's attack had more penetrating damage to the side of Luffy's arm while Big Mom's frontal attack had more force eventually knocking Jinbei away.



What the...? This is just plain head canon at this point. Not to mention we just saw a healthy big mom launch an attack that penetrated through the entirety of onigashima. Also it would matter what part of the arm was struck given that both were fully coated with hardening.



convict said:


> No it doesn't. Look at Luffy vs Magellan..and many more examples.



Even if i concede on this point (which i dont quite given that jinbei was knock flat on his back), white eyes do imply damage that is above superficial, hence the point still stands.
Again, this was luffy who was far from serious. Not to mention, G2 <<<<<<<G3 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< G4 in terms of striking output.



convict said:


> I think Queen beats Jinbei. That doesn't take away from the fact that Jinbei's defensive feats surpass his. Queen likely wins in strengh and endurance.



Bruh, you are literally trying to have your cake and eat it. If you truly believe jinbei can defend competently against a healthy big mom, then you would also have to believe that queen would be unable to hurt if. Hence a win for jinbei. 
You cant have it both ways.


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## convict (Sep 6, 2020)

> Again, considering the fact that big mom was heavily nerfed to the point to chopper kept her at bay for even a moment, its just not as impressive a feat as you wish it to be.



A full blown sword attack and a grab are different. Current "healthy" meme is fairing no better against the SH despite us knowing she has powerful sword attacks that can match Kaido.



> Implying Akainu's attack aimed at finishing off a literal dead man (Ace) is a serious attack.



With Akainu? Yes, and he didn't just block it he kept it at bay for a while. And the impressive aspect is not having his hand melted off considering how dangerous Akainu's fruit is, showing incredible defensive Haki regardless of how much effort Akainu put into that attack.



> What the...? This is just plain head canon at this point. Not to mention we just saw a healthy big mom launch an attack that penetrated through the entirety of onigashima. *Also it would matter what part of the arm was struck given that both were fully coated with hardening.*


And Akainu's manga is one of the most lethal fruits in the manga and Jinbei blocked it. The attack Meme used was completely different. At the bolded, is full body hardening anywhere in the body equivalent to to focused hardening at a given point? Luffy's Haki was likely most focused on his fists at the time as he was attacking.



> Bruh, you are literally trying to have your cake and eat it. If you truly believe jinbei can defend competently against a healthy big mom, then you would also have to believe that queen would be unable to hurt if. Hence a win for jinbei.
> You cant have it both ways.



Nothing of the sort. Jinbei can temporarily ward off serious attacks from Meme and Akainu that aren't their heaviest hitters (as we have seen those named attacks). Queen's top named moves will eventually get Jinbei and his endurance will wear him out. Warding these attacks shows how powerful his defensive game is, but he is far from top tier. Temporarily stopping top tier attacks doesn't make you invulnerable to a barrage of high tier ones.

Basically what it comes down to is, you are choosing to ignore the Akainu feat because "Marineford" and rationalizing the Meme issue as her being a weakass shell at the time despite no evidence suggesting as such besides her losing weight, as her performance then and her performance now are equivalent. If he had one feat against a top tier, then fine, but now it is twice he has looked very good against them. His defensive feats surpass the Sanji/King exchange.


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## Gledania (Sep 6, 2020)

Raid suit Sanji > Jimbei > Base Sanji


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

convict said:


> A full blown sword attack and a grab are different.



The point was that they both depend on the strength of the user behind them, and in that instant, chopper resisted big mom's strength.



convict said:


> Current "healthy" meme is fairing no better against the SH despite us knowing she has powerful sword attacks that can match Kaido.



Literally bringing up blatant PIS. Next thing we know, you are going to argue that franky's bike >>>>>> luffy



convict said:


> With Akainu? Yes, and he didn't just block it he kept it at bay for a while. And the impressive aspect is not having his hand melted off considering how dangerous Akainu's fruit is, showing incredible defensive Haki regardless of how much effort Akainu put into that attack.



The thing though is that we know from Akainu's exchange of words with jinbei that he wasnt close to being serious given jinbei's warlord status. Heck he was just about to end jinbei's career (stating that it was time he *punished* jinbei) before marco and vista intervened.

And bringing up marineford's plot directed power lvls is a valid point. The entire arc had xters going up and holding their own against folks they had no business being in the same room with, and was overall awful, powerscaling wise.



convict said:


> And Akainu's manga is one of the most lethal fruits in the manga and Jinbei blocked it.



Yet the same jinbei got koed by ace and G2 luffy.



convict said:


> The attack Meme used was completely different. At the bolded, *is full body hardening anywhere in the body equivalent to to focused hardening at a given point? *Luffy's Haki was likely most focused on his fists at the time as he was attacking.


Okay, now you are just making stuff up @bolded.

Luffy's haki in G4 is quite literally being exerted at full power all through most of his body. Heck a sneak attack from doffy to his torso literally did jackshit against his haki so forgive me if i dont buy this headcanon of yours.




convict said:


> Nothing of the sort. Jinbei can temporarily ward off serious attacks from Meme and Akainu that aren't their heaviest hitters (as we have seen those named attacks). Queen's top named moves will eventually get Jinbei and his endurance will wear him out. Warding these attacks shows how powerful his defensive game is, but he is far from top tier. Temporarily stopping top tier attacks doesn't make you invulnerable to a barrage of high tier ones.



Except we know for a fact that a wide gulf exists btwn queen and big mom. To put it in naruto terms, its like saying someone who can hold up against Madara's PS would lose to freaking sakura. It is too much of a leap to make sense.



convict said:


> Basically what it comes down to is, you are choosing to ignore the Akainu feat because "Marineford"



See my previous post.



convict said:


> and rationalizing the Meme issue as her being a weakass shell at the time despite no evidence suggesting as such besides her losing weight,


Except for statements from her crew, her performance at that point when compared to her usual power lvl, inverse feats and common sense, sure, nothing "proves" that an sickly looking big mom is weaker than her healthier looking counterpart.




convict said:


> as her performance then and her performance now are equivalent.


See above.


convict said:


> If he had one feat against a top tier, then fine, but now it is twice he has looked very good against them. His defensive feats surpass the Sanji/King exchange.



Already sufficiently dealt with this.


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## B Rabbit (Sep 6, 2020)

Sabo said:


> Sanji was already portrayal to be similar level to Jimbie in Fishman island. Sanji also have better progression and now he has the raid suite.


This is a false statement.


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## Heart Over Blade (Sep 6, 2020)

I've no opinion one way or the other in this debate until I saw this panel of the latest chapter.

*Spoiler*: __ 






Jinbei is standing where Sanji normally should be in a battle, next to Luffy in the forefront as his left/right hand man. So until Sanji gets feats that puts him above Jinbei, I'm putting money on Jinbei for the time being.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> I've no opinion one way or the other in this debate until I saw this panel of the latest chapter.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Jinbei is standing behind luffy.
Sanji and zoro are the only members of the crew actually standing beside him.


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## Corax (Sep 6, 2020)

In the latest chapter Jinbei trolled  healthy full power and enraged BM even worse than on Sunny. This just shows us that she was only very slightly nerfed if at all.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 6, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Jinbei is standing behind luffy.
> Sanji and zoro are the only members of the crew actually standing beside him.



_It's easy if you look at the rocks on the bottom as reference for the edge of the plateau they are sitting on. 

The East Blue characters are all nearest to that edge. Luffy is in the middle, Sanji between him and Nami and Zoro between him and Usopp._


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## killfox (Sep 6, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Except Jinbei didnt "blow" big mom away. He barely moved her a few feets.


Jinbei only moved BM a "few feet?"  

Pretty sure that statement is one of the most comical headcannon statements ive seen. So whats a few feet to you? 2 feet? 10 feet? Read the one piece Chapter 890 page 12 and get back to me if that looks like a "few feet" to you smh



Kroczilla said:


> And yes, being weakened counts for a lot in one piece, with whitebeard being literally the worst example you could pull in that regard given that he would never have gotten so hurt in the first place if he wasnt so weakened.


WB wouldnt have gotten hurt because he would have dodged that attack as Marco stated in cannon. He still would be hurt by fodder swords if they hit him, and his "weakness" didnt affect his attack power. 

A weaked yonkou is still stronger than every non yonkou. Thats why WB in a "weakened state" still wrecked everyone. 



Kroczilla said:


> The only reason Jinbei and the SHs didnt die is becasue BM wanted cake. Previously before that she made her fire homie so big Jinbei said there was nothing he could do even with the ocean. So even weakened they stil had no chance. Id wager she could still beat Katakuri in her "weakend state".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## killfox (Sep 6, 2020)

I quoted that super weird but im not rewriting it lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 6, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Jinbei is standing behind luffy.
> Sanji and zoro are the only members of the crew actually standing beside him.


Are you sure?

Looks to me like Jimbei took Zoro's spot on Luffy's right hand


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## JustSumGuy (Sep 6, 2020)

I don’t really think Oda will change the constant of Luffy, Zoro and Sanji being the top 3 even with the addition of Jinbe.

It’s kind of like the first time you read Skypeia. You could make the argument at the time that Robin was stronger than both Zoro and Sanji cause she basically hard countered both of them. Of course we know better now but it wasn’t really until Enies Lobby that we could be 100% they were stronger. I feel like it’ll be the same with Jinbe.


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 6, 2020)

JustSumGuy said:


> I don’t really think Oda will change the constant of Luffy, Zoro and Sanji being the top 3 even with the addition of Jinbe.
> 
> It’s kind of like the first time you read Skypeia. You could make the argument at the time that Robin was stronger than both Zoro and Sanji cause she basically hard countered both of them. Of course we know better now but it wasn’t really until Enies Lobby that we could be 100% they were stronger. I feel like it’ll be the same with Jinbe.


I definitely feel that by EOS Sanji and Zoro will be number 3 and 2.
But for now, they're not.

Right now Sanji's best feat is blocking one kick from King and not getting 1hko by him. He still took quite some time to get up though.

Zoro's best feat is....... Not getting 1hko by Fuji I think?

Meanwhile Jimbei out there tossing Big Mom like she was Gimli, blocking Akainu's punch, throwing BM on the ground and is called a major asset by both BM and Sengoku.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 6, 2020)

okay @killfox , i will try and address the rest of your post as best as i can.

The point you have been trying to make is that jinbei's feat of pushing big mom back with his strongest attack is super impressive. if thats the case, you must accept that G3 luffy >>>> jinbei since he knocked down kaido. and dont even start with the "Off Guard" BS. Jinbei's punch literally caught big mom wide open in her torso and she made no attempt to defend against it so her being Off Guard counts for squat.
"Sanji and Luffy attacked her and once again caught *her off guard while she was in mid attack* on someone else". This made for quite a funny read. them catching her "Off Guard" would not matter anymore than rayleigh intercepting kizaru's kick would have anything to do with the potency of kizaru's attack or the fact that rayleigh would still have to be in the same weight class or attack with a similar level of AP to successfully intercept (which is what sanji and G3 luffy did). Aoikiji vs Jozu is quite the awful example to use as jozu attacked aoikiji DIRECTLY. A better example would be jozu intercepting mihawk's slash which had been aimed at WB.
what i am trying to say is that big mom and kaido's respective durability doesnt factor against attacks that are strong enough to push them back. The real feat would be actually doing any subtantial damage to them.
i will address the point on jinbei vs luffy first. Regardless of whether jinbei "drew first blood" the point still remains that luffy went on to bloody him up without using any of his more serious g2 moves, basic hardening or even G3. The fact still remains that the match up ended in a draw. Your speculation on what jinbei could have done is irrelevant, worse so given that jinbei couldnt even oneshot wadatsumi with one of his strongest attacks.
And lastly, Luffy vs Ace. Now i am sure that you are going to pull a quote from ODA in proof of your claim about ace having higher growth potential. However, this just doesnt match up with reality. Luffy with a weaker DF: basically conquered east blue witihin a few months, defeated a warlord within a few months of entering the grandline, built a much stronger crew, basically wrecked CP9, defeated two strong DF users with full mastery of haki despite having zero knowledge of the concept, gained just a impressive a notoriety despite the govt actively working to cover up his feats.  since the time skip he has defeated a first mate, someone significantly stronger than ace ever was despite ace spending a far longer period in the new world, gained future sight mid battle, is gifted with a rare form of COA haki capable of far greater attack potency. Heck Luffy's is already aiming to beat a younko, something ace would never dream of despite spending far longer in the new world. Feat wise and lore wise, there is no room for comparison.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 6, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> He still took quite some time to get up though.



_Not getting 1h ko and taking superficial damage solely from the fall like he did are quite far apart.

Also he appears on the very next page after King does, in the same general area.

When Luffy launches himself at the sky the way is free before Queen catches him. Then King appears up there when Luffy is thrown, and we see the panels with Sanji walking around before Luffy even hits the ground._


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## killfox (Sep 6, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> okay @killfox , i will try and address the rest of your post as best as i can.


Appreciate it what would an anime forum be without debates lol



Kroczilla said:


> The point you have been trying to make is that jinbei's feat of pushing big mom back with his strongest attack is super impressive. if thats the case, you must accept that G3 luffy >>>> jinbei since he knocked down kaido.



Knocking down a *drunk* opponent *from above* with *gravity on your side *against a completely unaware opponent is not the same as rushing an aware opponent and blowing them into the ocean. Based on feats im sure no one would doubt Jinbeis ability to knock down a drunk unaware Kaido from above with an attack. Id wager a FM Karate 5000 tile fist would have had the same effect in the same situation. 




Kroczilla said:


> "Sanji and Luffy attacked her and once again caught *her off guard while she was in mid attack* on someone else". This made for quite a funny read. them catching her "Off Guard" would not matter anymore than rayleigh intercepting kizaru's kick would have anything to do with the potency of kizaru's attack or the fact that rayleigh would still have to be in the same weight class or attack with a similar level of AP to successfully intercept (which is what sanji and G3 luffy did). Aoikiji vs Jozu is quite the awful example to use as jozu attacked aoikiji DIRECTLY. A better example would be jozu intercepting mihawk's slash which had been aimed at WB.



So by your logic not only is Jozu mihawk level but Vista is also Mihawk level because he intercepted Mihawk? Is Marco Akainu level for intercepting and stopping him? Is Jinbei Akainu level? I need some answers. 



Kroczilla said:


> what i am trying to say is that big mom and kaido's respective durability doesnt factor against attacks that are strong enough to push them back. The real feat would be actually doing any subtantial damage to them.



I do agree with this. 



Kroczilla said:


> i will address the point on jinbei vs luffy first. Regardless of whether jinbei "drew first blood" *the point still remains that luffy went on to bloody him up without using any of his more serious g2 moves*, basic hardening or even G3. The fact still remains that the match up ended in a draw. Your speculation on what jinbei could have done is irrelevant, worse so given that jinbei couldnt even oneshot wadatsumi with one of his strongest attacks.



First off id like to point out that you said something like.. "Luffy drew blood from Jinbei take that how you will" like you implied luffy had the upper hand. 


Just reread the Jinbei vs Luffy fight. Not only did Jinbei blow luffy away im pretty sure it was his weakest shown attack. He used Shark tile fist (read it in 2 diff translations) He didnt add a number such as Shark tile fist 1000 tiles or up to 5000 tiles which is the highest tile hes show to date if i remember. Meaning he also wasnt serous and wasnt trying to hurt luffy that bad. Both held back so im not sure what point your trying to make. 
Also Jinbei said multiple times that it was not his place to defeat the Hody pirates it was SH and his pirates duty. This is why Jinbei didnt stop everyone easily and one shot hody himself. This is also the reason he let Sanji ( A SH) finish Wadatsumi. The funny thing would be to claim that Jinbei cannot beat him. Which im sure is not what your implying. 



Kroczilla said:


> The point you have been trying to make is that jinbei's feat of pushing big mom back with his strongest attack is super impressive. if thats the case, you must accept that G3 luffy >>>> jinbei since he knocked down kaido.



Knocking down a *drunk* opponent *from above*  a FLYING OPPONENT WITN NO FOOT HOLD with *gravity on your side *against a completely unaware opponent is not the same as rushing an aware opponent and blowing them into the ocean. Based on feats im sure no one would doubt Jinbeis ability to knock down a drunk unaware Kaido from above with an attack. Id wager a FM Karate 5000 tile fist would have had the same effect in the same situation.



Kroczilla said:


> and dont even start with the "Off Guard" BS. Jinbei's punch literally caught big mom wide open in her torso and she made attempt to defend against it so her being Off Guard counts for squat.



While she was weakened I feel like people often forget that Jinbei had literally just thrown a tidal wave in BM's face THEN blitzed her out the water and attacked. 
Either way what happened is a good feat for Jinbei. But people in general (not just you) need to understand what happened was a combination of BM being weakened AND *WATER JINBEI* . I think most people count Jinbeis feat as a regular Jinbei feat when it was a Water Jinbei feat. And Water Jinbei >>>Regular Jinbei so had Jinbei been on land its possible he wouldnt have been able to directly push back even a weakened BM. The fact that we dont know how much of a boost Water Jinbei gets and we dont know how weak BM was at the time makes it a toss up. (Kind of went on a rant there lol)

Anyway with all that said can you honestly say Kaido was aware of Luffys attack? 




Kroczilla said:


> "Sanji and Luffy attacked her and once again caught *her off guard while she was in mid attack* on someone else". This made for quite a funny read. them catching her "Off Guard" would not matter anymore than rayleigh intercepting kizaru's kick would have anything to do with the potency of kizaru's attack or the fact that rayleigh would still have to be in the same weight class or attack with a similar level of AP to successfully intercept (which is what sanji and G3 luffy did). Aoikiji vs Jozu is quite the awful example to use as jozu attacked aoikiji DIRECTLY. A better example would be jozu intercepting mihawk's slash which had been aimed at WB.



So by your logic not only is Jozu mihawk level but Vista is also Mihawk level because he intercepted Mihawk? Is Marco Akainu level for intercepting and stopping him? Is Jinbei Akainu level? I need some answers. 



Kroczilla said:


> what i am trying to say is that big mom and kaido's respective durability doesnt factor against attacks that are strong enough to push them back. The real feat would be actually doing any subtantial damage to them.



I do agree with this. 



Kroczilla said:


> And lastly, Luffy vs Ace. Now i am sure that you are going to pull a quote from ODA in proof of your claim about ace having higher growth potential. *However, this just doesnt match up with reality. *



Im pretty sure the definition of head cannon is having an opinion against what the creator stated as fact lol congrats on your head cannon 




Kroczilla said:


> Luffy with a weaker DF: basically conquered east blue witihin a few months, defeated a warlord within a few months of entering the grandline, built a much stronger crew, basically wrecked CP9, defeated two strong DF users with full mastery of haki despite having zero knowledge of the concept, gained just a impressive a notoriety despite the govt actively working to cover up his feats.



Ace left 3 years before Luffy, journeyed into the New world fought Jinbei for 5 days, somehow made it into Shanks territory, Survived a fight with WB, became the 2nd division commander of the worlds strongest crew. Went and established a (currently unknow) reputation in Wano. For all we know he could have fought some borderline top tier. 
Luffy had to defeat Doflamingo post skip with one of his most difficult fights to date to get a bounty of 500 million ace was 550 mil before time skip. There's a lot about Ace we dont know. Also growth rates taken into account Sabo should have a lower growth rate than both Luffy and Ace yet look how strong he is post skip with Aces fruit. If Ace were still alive after the war, with him and Marco, hed be far ahead of Luffy as a crew and power wise. 




Kroczilla said:


> since the time skip he has defeated a first mate, someone significantly stronger than ace ever was despite ace spending a far longer period in the new world, gained future sight mid battle, is gifted with a rare form of COA haki capable of par greater potency. Heck Luffy's is already aiming to beat a younko, something ace would never dream of again despite spending far longer in the new world. Feat wise and lore wise, there is no room for comparison.


Your speaking on a dead character that has no more room to grow. Lore wise Ace is the son of the Pirate King. The Greatest pirate that ever lived. Aces true identity shook the entire world. WB wanted to make him PK, Roger had freaking GARP raising him. He would have the greatest potential at being pirate King if her were alive. 

Took a while because im pretty busy


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 6, 2020)

Sanji is Luffy's left hand man. He's stronger than Jinbe.


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## Jujubatman12 (Sep 6, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Sanji is Luffy's left hand man. He's stronger than Jinbe.


Based on?


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 6, 2020)

Jujubatman12 said:


> Based on?


Sanji being Luffy's left hand man. Certainly not based on feats,
Neither Zoro or Sanji has feats that they are superior to Jinbe, but I think their new power ups will place them above him when we see them all go all out.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 7, 2020)

killfox said:


> Knocking down a *drunk* opponent *from above* with *gravity on your side *against a completely unaware opponent is not the same as rushing an aware opponent and blowing them into the ocean. Based on feats im sure no one would doubt Jinbeis ability to knock down a drunk unaware Kaido from above with an attack. Id wager a FM Karate 5000 tile fist would have had the same effect in the same situation.


Gravity would play a role but the fact is dragon kaido is very well capable of flight. Meeting luffy's punch overcame kaido ability to resist the effect of gravity. A much better feat that knocking a weakened giant lady off a ship.

And as i said, big mom made no attempt to defend against jinbei's attack hence she was in effect in the same situation as kaido.





killfox said:


> So by your logic not only is Jozu mihawk level but Vista is also Mihawk level because he intercepted Mihawk? Is Marco Akainu level for intercepting and stopping him? Is Jinbei Akainu level? I need some answers.



Ugh. Read my post. I said the attack could be successfully intercepted by an output to counter its AP. Take for example Akainu vs Jinbei. The punch which jinbei stopped was aimed at finishing off a dead man. It was far from akainu's best hence jinbei was able to successfully stop it albeit briefly (also based on Akainu's statements, he had no interest in killing jinbei). Ditto luffy and sanji intercepting a punch from healthy big mom. It doesnt mean they are her equal. It just means their combined attack can match her casual output.



killfox said:


> First off id like to point out that you said something like.. "Luffy drew blood from Jinbei take that how you will" like you implied luffy had the upper hand.


I pointed out that the match ended in a draw so i dont know what to tell you.




killfox said:


> Just reread the Jinbei vs Luffy fight. Not only did Jinbei blow luffy away im pretty sure it was his weakest shown attack. He used Shark tile fist (read it in 2 diff translations) He didnt add a number such as Shark tile fist 1000 tiles or up to 5000 tiles which is the highest tile hes show to date if i remember. Meaning he also wasnt serous and wasnt trying to hurt luffy that bad. Both held back so im not sure what point your trying to make.


The entire point was neither was serious but it still ended in a draw, implying that in that moment they were on par with each other. Which makes sense given that jinbei drew with ace as a rookie.




killfox said:


> Also Jinbei said multiple times that it was not his place to defeat the Hody pirates it was SH and his pirates duty. This is why Jinbei didnt stop everyone easily and one shot hody himself. This is also the reason he let Sanji ( A SH) finish Wadatsumi. The funny thing would be to claim that Jinbei cannot beat him. Which im sure is not what your implying.



Yeah i am not buying this. Jinbei stated that it wasnt his place to defeat hody but clearly that did not extend to hody's allies whom jinbei actively fought and aided in defeating. And no way would i claim that jinbei would curbstomp wadatsumi. Just pointing out that even with one of his strongest moves, he couldnt oneshot him.



killfox said:


> Knocking down a *drunk* opponent *from above* a FLYING OPPONENT WITN NO FOOT HOLD with *gravity on your side *against a completely unaware opponent is not the same as rushing an aware opponent and blowing them into the ocean. Based on feats im sure no one would doubt Jinbeis ability to knock down a drunk unaware Kaido from above with an attack. Id wager a FM Karate 5000 tile fist would have had the same effect in the same situation.



Already addressed this.



killfox said:


> While she was weakened I feel like people often forget that Jinbei had literally just thrown a tidal wave in BM's face THEN blitzed her out the water and attacked.



So basically he caught her off guard and wide open. Got it.



killfox said:


> Either way what happened is a good feat for Jinbei. But people in general (not just you) need to understand what happened was a combination of BM being weakened AND *WATER JINBEI* . I think most people count Jinbeis feat as a regular Jinbei feat when it was a Water Jinbei feat. And Water Jinbei >>>Regular Jinbei so had Jinbei been on land its possible he wouldnt have been able to directly push back even a weakened BM. The fact that we dont know how much of a boost Water Jinbei gets and we dont know how weak BM was at the time makes it a toss up. (Kind of went on a rant there lol)


I think its a good feat too, but not as impressive as you and some others here are trying to make it out to be when taking the circumstances into account.




killfox said:


> Anyway with all that said can you honestly say Kaido was aware of Luffys attack?


Never said that. The same way big mom was caught wide open by jinbei, thus IN EFFECT, being off guard against his attack.




killfox said:


> So by your logic not only is Jozu mihawk level but Vista is also Mihawk level because he intercepted Mihawk? Is Marco Akainu level for intercepting and stopping him? Is Jinbei Akainu level? I need some answers.



See above. Already dealt with this.



killfox said:


> Im pretty sure the definition of head cannon is having an opinion against what the creator stated as fact lol congrats on your head cannon



First off, i am going to need that statement from Oda on Ace. But more importantly, yes sometimes authors might intend a fact but the story tells quite the opposite.
For example, Oda intended kidd to be luffy's rival and direct counterpart with Law playing a much less prominent role in the story. And yet clearly the story doesnt reflect the intent he had. Its the same with luffy and ace. Luffy is about to take down a younko alliance barely three years into his piracy career whereas ace lost to blackbeard and absolutely dominated by an admiral.



killfox said:


> Ace left 3 years before Luffy, journeyed into the New world fought Jinbei for 5 days, somehow made it into Shanks territory, Survived a fight with WB, became the 2nd division commander of the worlds strongest crew. Went and established a (currently unknow) reputation in Wano. For all we know he could have fought some borderline top tier.



Ace journeyed to the new world after making a name for himself, something every run in the mill named xter has accomplished. Fighting jinbei to a draw is not as impressive as luffy defeating doffy, cracker and katakuri (and soon, kaido). Making it into shanks territory isnt a big deal given shanks is over all a pretty chill dude. Luffy made it into big mom's territory, obtained a road ponygleph, defeated her strongest fighters and escaped at half of his crews' strength.
WB wasnt trying to kill ace so its not a good feat of surviving a fight with him.
Ace became the 2nd division commander due to favouritism on the part of WB and also coz teach outright rejected the role. Also in case you havent noticed, luffy currently has at least three crew members excluding himself who could easily fill the role of younko commander.
Ace made a few friends in wano. Luffy is about to freaking liberate it. Again there is no room for comparison. Also did i mention that luffy had the weaker DF. Or that he had mastered advance haki techniques which ace never could despite having spent less time in the new world.




killfox said:


> Luffy had to defeat Doflamingo post skip with one of his most difficult fights to date to get a bounty of 500 million ace was 550 mil before time skip.



Again, the WG desperately suppressed info about luffy's feats. They lied that smoker defeated crocodile, hid the fact that luffy defeated moria and knocked out a celestial dragon, did not take into account his feats at marineford and were in the dark on his feat of beating enel. 



killfox said:


> There's a lot about Ace we dont know. Also growth rates taken into account Sabo should have a lower growth rate than both Luffy and Ace yet look how strong he is post skip with Aces fruit. If Ace were still alive after the war, with him and Marco, hed be far ahead of Luffy as a crew and power wise.


This is all speculation. Fact is lore wise, luffy absolutely shits on ace and is on the verge of surpassing marco. Heck he's already over the billion mark. His bounty is over twice what ace's ever was despite ace being on the strongest crew.




killfox said:


> Your speaking on a dead character that has no more room to grow. Lore wise Ace is the son of the Pirate King. The Greatest pirate that ever lived. Aces true identity shook the entire world. WB wanted to make him PK, Roger had freaking GARP raising him. He would have the greatest potential at being pirate King if her were alive



You keep going on about ace's lineage but forget that one of the central themes of one piece is that that crap doesnt matter. Sabo is the right hand of the world's most wanted man despite coming from a shitty family. None of the admirals come from any particularly impressive family backgrounds yet they have obtained god tier status. Ditto whitebeard, marco, king and queen and a host of other characters.

Also luffy is the one recognised by shanks, smoker, rayleigh and even a random bar keep as having inherited rogers' will. Ace's role as the son of the PK didnt matter in the grand scheme of things.


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## Beast (Sep 7, 2020)

Luffy is Joyboy reincarnated, Aces potential being higher went out of the window, once fate, Destiny and all that shit started with Odens FB.

Joyboy isn’t waiting for Roger, Garp, Dragon, Ace, BB... only Luffy.


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## nmwn93 (Sep 8, 2020)

lol these threads always get so fired up. dont get too caught up in your precious feats, akainu killed ace who jinbe tied with,,, jinbes hands are stronger than aces body based off that too right lol. anyhow im taking sanji. md diff, yeah i said it.

the over hype of jinbe pushing a nerfed big mom off the sunny is scary...

zeus breeze or whatever attack nami used knocked a plump bm into the Earth itself. is that stronger or weaker than jimbe pushing a skinny bigmom backwards?? wheres jimbes;s vegabon drill in comparison to gear 4th because i remember luffy hitting bm with full force and not even budging her elbow is jumbe stronger than g4 luffy? based off "feats?"
lol

lets all please remember, squard stabbed wb, that's a feat too? right?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Sep 9, 2020)

nmwn93 said:


> the over hype of jinbe pushing a nerfed big mom off the sunny is scary...


Especially how big BM is, compared to that ship


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 9, 2020)

I would vote for a draw. Could go either way extreme diff.

Both of them are roughly YC2 level. Zoro being YC1 and Luffy tiny bit above YFM but still below Admiral/Yonko.


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