# Alien X  vs STTGL



## eaebiakuya (Apr 4, 2013)

Alien X from Ben10

Who wins ?


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## MAPSK (Apr 4, 2013)




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## lokoxDZz (Apr 4, 2013)

You didn't do that.


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## midgetoverlord (Apr 5, 2013)

Not even funny.


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## Asune (Apr 5, 2013)

I have never seen a single thread of OP that is barely any good.


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## eaebiakuya (Apr 5, 2013)

In this thread, most of people agreed Alien X have universal level in durability and reality warping?



Not sure why this thread is bad. After this thread i dont saw others thread with Alien X. I just want know where he places in obd.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Apr 5, 2013)

Infinitesimally Microscopic Stain on STTGL's Size 10 quadrillion boot tier


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## Tacocat (Apr 5, 2013)

Can you stain GAR?


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## NightmareCinema (Apr 6, 2013)

Has Alien X ever shown anything even remotely near STTGL's level of power?


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 6, 2013)

He survived a universal attack and recreated the universe (almost) perfectly right after


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## Nep Heart (Apr 6, 2013)

Does Alien X even have the speed to compete? If not, it gets fucking speedblizted beyond belief here if it's not remotely close to trillions times FTL.


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## Calamity (Apr 6, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> Does Alien X even have the speed to compete? If not, it gets fucking speedblizted beyond belief here if it's not remotely close to trillions times FTL.



From the short clip that I once watched, it seemed he restored the universe after it was completely destroyed(i.e. both time and space) so effectively taking actions outside of time.


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## Nep Heart (Apr 7, 2013)

It technically would be taking action outside of space, too, which would be problematic for STTGL if Alien X can actually use its (possible) incorporealism in an actual fight.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 7, 2013)

Alien X kills itself for being from a terrible show.


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## Calamity (Apr 7, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> It technically would be taking action outside of space, too, which would be problematic for STTGL if Alien X can actually use its (possible) incorporealism in an actual fight.



The important part was taking actions outside of time since it gives him or anyone who does it this:


Probably. I haven't seen that argument made before so I can't say for sure.  

Anyways, was just pointing that out. Carry on people.


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> It technically would be taking action outside of space, too, which would be problematic for STTGL if Alien X can actually use its (possible) incorporealism in an actual fight.


Not really, seeing as Arc-Gurren Lagann punches through space and time.


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## Nep Heart (Apr 7, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Not really, seeing as Arc-Gurren Lagann punches through space and time.



 If one is outside of space and time, there really isn't anything there to strike unless you want to argue that it can strike _outside_ of space and time now. Albeit, I am still skeptical about Alien X' capability to do this simply because I've never watched the series.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 7, 2013)

People are implying that Alien X has infinite speed because it can operate outside of time and space.

Spiral Power has also shown the capacity to operate to an extent outside of Time and Space.


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## Linkofone (Apr 7, 2013)

If one wishes to argue about both side, one should watch both series. At this rate, nothing will be accomplished because people are just arguing back and forth. :/

Also if both have infinite speed, it evens out. There's no way to do anything about it. It all comes down to what the fictional characters/things did and how powerful those feats were.


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## Nep Heart (Apr 7, 2013)

... And hence my skepticism over the infinite speed claims. I've never even heard of this being claimed until now, let alone people even confirming how its incorporealism work. Actually, if it operates outside of space, too, then it technically shouldn't be able to have any type of speed since it's not even moving in space to begin with.

 Also, one doesn't necessarily have to watch/read a series to debate for/against it to some degree or another... most of the OBD shouldn't be allowed to debate going off that logic.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 7, 2013)

And yet it clearly does.

A more likely explanation is that the creators of Ben 10 didn't take anything like that into account.


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## Ice (Apr 7, 2013)

Isn't infinite speed technically omnipresence? And I'm pretty sure Alien X has done exactly jack to prove it is omnipresent.


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## Nep Heart (Apr 7, 2013)

Axel Almer said:


> Isn't infinite speed technically omnipresence?



 Not really, omnipresence means one can exist in every point in space and time. Infinite speed just means it one would have no travel time, but still cover a distance between point A and B. Infinite speed doesn't make one everywhere at once, just they neglect travel time.


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> If one is outside of space and time, there really isn't anything there to strike unless you want to argue that it can strike _outside_ of space and time now. Albeit, I am still skeptical about Alien X' capability to do this simply because I've never watched the series.


I don't see why Alien X wouldn't be able to operate outside of spacetime if he busted it and then reconfigured it.

That said, Dai Gurren can operate outside of spacetime as well. That said, they don't even need to. The Anti-Spiral forces travel outside of spacetime, and Dai Gurren can use Spiral Power to attack them while in the confines of spacetime.

Furthermore, Chouginga-Gurren Lagann negates the Anti-Spiral scrubs' probability manipulation while defeating them outside of spacetime.


Ampchu said:


> Not really, omnipresence means one can exist in every point in space and time. Infinite speed just means it one would have no travel time, but still cover a distance between point A and B. Infinite speed doesn't make one everywhere at once, just they neglect travel time.


That's the paradox created during teleportation--an ability base Gurren Lagann has. Though, that's not quite correct. Without spacetime, there is no point A or point B.


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## Nep Heart (Apr 7, 2013)

It's been a while since I've watched the series, but I'll take your word for it since I've recalled some stuff that transcended space at least. Doesn't matter given Alien X' contradicts its hyperspatial existence by moving within the confines of space. Also, now that I think of it... wasn't there a feat in TTGL where they can hit every point in space and time with beams? That would negate infinite speed.


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> It's been a while since I've watched the series, but I'll take your word for it since I've recalled some stuff that transcended space at least. Doesn't matter given Alien X' contradicts its hyperspatial existence by moving within the confines of space.


Arc-Gurren Lagann breaks spacetime by punching an enemy through it, and that enemy moves outside of spacetime. I doubt STTGL couldn't do the same.


> Also, now that I think of it... wasn't there a feat in TTGL where they can hit every point in space and time with beams? That would negate infinite speed.


Yeah, I mentioned that above. It wasn't every point, but they used Spiral Power to aim its attacks, and Spiral Power kicks logic to the curb. More interestingly, Chouginga-Gurren Lagann manipulates probability to counteract the Anti-Spiral's probability manipulation while attacking enemies through spacetime rifts.


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## Nep Heart (Apr 7, 2013)

With that said, STTGL should pretty much kick Alien X' ass if it doesn't have any legitimate massively FTL feats. Also, I think the "outside space and time" still dubious, but doesn't matter here if STTGL can hit it anyway. Same for the already addressed dubious infinite speed claims.

 It just sounds like Alien X is being overhyped from what I am gathering.


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## Calamity (Apr 7, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> People are implying that Alien X has infinite speed because it can operate outside of time and space.
> Spiral Power has also shown the capacity to operate to an extent outside of Time and Space.


Well, if Spiral Power has done the same thing, then they're equal in that regard.



Ampchu said:


> ... And hence my skepticism over the infinite  speed claims. I've never even heard of this being claimed until now,


Well, I didn't know it either but someone brought this clip to my attention on the question of Alien X's speed on another forum:  

*Spoiler*: __


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## shade0180 (Apr 7, 2013)

What's stopping Alien X from busting the universe where they are fighting and completely erasing STTGL from it? STTGL hasn't survive a universe bust or recreation of a universe, Nor Reappearing after a universe is recreated which Alien X have done.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 7, 2013)

Conversely one could claim that it take infinite time for Alien X to react and thus he would be blitzed by everyone and their grandmother.


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## Cave Jansen (Apr 7, 2013)

edit: nvm

10char


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## Calamity (Apr 7, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Conversely one could claim that it take infinite time for Alien X to react and thus he would be blitzed by everyone and their grandmother.




*Spoiler*: __ 




From what I've gathered after reading many threads, it works like this(example):
Character A has taken actions/reacted/danced/whatever in a place outside of time and space. That is, in said place, there is no flow/passage of time and taking any action is impossible(but he takes one anyway since this is fiction). Essentially, said character is taking actions without time passing at all which is equivalent to taking actions in zero-time/instantly/no-time/etc from our standards. Time is meaningless for him when he can act even in its absence.

So, what happens when such a character is pitted in some universe where time flows normally? Since said character has feats of taking actions even when time didn't exist and flow, his actions here too would take literally no-time at all/no flow of time/etc. His actions would be instant with no delay. Speed becomes a non-issue hence infinite speed/reactions/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.





*Spoiler*: __ 




To respond to your point, I don't see how one could claim it would take him "infinite time" to take an action.
He did not take any of it when restoring the universe.




Tell you what, I really can't  afford to spend a lot of time discussing this issue. I've got an exam tomorrow. 

So, instead of taking the long route, I suggest that if you(or anyone else sharing the same views) think this is a *serious* enough issue and that the "taking actions outside of time-space=uberspeed" stuff is *WRONG!!!*, then make a thread about it in the Meta.

If people agree with you, then yeah, Alien X (or anyone else who can take actions outside of time) is no longer immune to speedblitz and faster characters can murderstomp them. 
If they don't or you don't think this is a serious issue, then the point stands. Speed is irrelevant in this battle or for any other match where there are characters shit on time-space and can take actions outside it.

I'll be only too happy to take whatever side is picked.


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> What's stopping Alien X from busting the universe where they are fighting and completely erasing STTGL from it? STTGL hasn't survive a universe bust or recreation of a universe, Nor Reappearing after a universe is recreated which Alien X have done.


STTGL's universal. Even TTGL took a supposed universe-buster to the face. STTGL is literally millions of times more powerful than TTGL and Gran Zamboa's Infinity Storm. STTGL's final Giga Drill Breaker causes a Big Crunch as a _byproduct_ of the attack, and everything in the Anti-Spiral universe collapses into singularity.

And we already went over the whole reappearing after a universe is created. Alien X did that by existing outside of spacetime. STTGL can do that too.

That said, what I'm hearing leads me to believe that Alien X can't flit in and out of spacetime like STTGL can. He has to break it first. Unless we assume spacetime to already be fucked in this fight, would that not mean that Alien X still has to react in the confines of time first in order to universe-bust? Which would also mean that reaction time and speedblitz apply, correct?

@Mohsin: Finish TTGL


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> STTGL's universal. Even TTGL took a supposed universe-buster to the face. STTGL is literally millions of times more powerful than TTGL and Gran Zamboa's Infinity Storm. STTGL's final Giga Drill Breaker causes a Big Crunch as a _byproduct_ of the attack, and everything in the Anti-Spiral universe collapses into singularity.
> 
> And we already went over the whole reappearing after a universe is created. Alien X did that by existing outside of spacetime. STTGL can do that too.
> 
> ...



That sig makes this all the more awesome. Now just add allcaps and Yuri Lowenthal


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 7, 2013)

> STTGL's final Giga Drill Breaker causes a Big Crunch as a byproduct of the attack, and everything in the Anti-Spiral universe collapses into singularity.


when did that happen ? 


anyway, IIRC the universal stuff in TTGL comes from the statement that Grand Zamboas big attack was = Big Bang .. LGs head absorbed it or something .. but apparently Big Bang =/= universe busting (according to Nevermind anyway), so I'd probably put recreating the whole universe (and surviving the erasing of one if that's what happened to Alien X) above that


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## Qinglong (Apr 7, 2013)

It was in the movie Lagann-hen

Although they sorta messed up since it blew up after multiple galaxies got crunched...


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> That sig makes this all the more awesome. Now just add allcaps and Yuri Lowenthal


WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM? MY JAPANESE TTGL IS THE SUB THAT WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS!


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Apr 7, 2013)

> anyway, IIRC the universal stuff in TTGL comes from the statement that Grand Zamboas big attack was = Big Bang .. LGs head absorbed it or something .. but apparently Big Bang =/= universe busting (according to Nevermind anyway), so I'd probably put recreating the whole universe (and surviving the erasing of one if that's what happened to Alien X) above that



TTGL held back the power of a big bang. STTGL actually destroyed a universe in the movie. I didn't watch the movie but I saw that fight, you can find it easily on youtube.


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## Qinglong (Apr 7, 2013)

Here's a pic:


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 7, 2013)

I saw it too, but only remember some kind of large multi-colored blast and Simon fist-fighting the AS in some white space  (all the proof you need that Simon >>>> Kamina ) .. unless that white space was the destroyed universe ..


eh, maybe I forgot


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> I saw it too, but only remember some kind of large multi-colored blast and Simon fist-fighting the AS in some white space  (*all the proof you need that Simon >>>> Kamina* ) .. unless that white space was the destroyed universe ..
> 
> 
> eh, maybe I forgot


Repped


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## Qinglong (Apr 7, 2013)

A crunch occurred, then matryoshka doll pileup, then fist fight, then what they were standing on blew up in multicoloured blast, then they were floating in whateever was left of the dimension


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM? MY JAPANESE TTGL IS THE SUB THAT WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS!



I wish I could rep you more for that?


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## Calamity (Apr 7, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> That said, what I'm hearing leads me to believe that Alien X can't flit in and out of spacetime like STTGL can. He has to break it first.


Not sure what you mean by the above or why is it even necessary for him to flit "in" and "out". 
The point is that from the clip I posted, he has a feat where he takes an action outside of time effectively giving him infinite speed/reactions/whatever as per sources which I already linked and in which case would make him immune to speedblitz and which was originally in response to some posters here who were saying "lol blitz!".
If STTGL can do that and more, he likely wins. 



> would that not mean that Alien X still has to react in the confines of time first in order to universe-bust? Which would also mean that reaction time and speedblitz apply, correct?


He reacted. Where time did not exist. (for a better explanation, see my post to Darth ). 
Why would time matter to him now even if it exists?



> @Mohsin: Finish TTGL


I shall soon. Just not getting the time.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Apr 7, 2013)

Here's a vid, from 3:10-something


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Not sure what you mean by the above or why is it even necessary for him to flit "in" and "out".
> The point is that from the clip I posted, he has a feat where he takes an action outside of time effectively giving him infinite speed/reactions/whatever as per sources which I already linked and in which case would make him immune to speedblitz and which was originally in response to some posters here who were saying "lol blitz!".
> If STTGL can do that and more, he likely wins.
> 
> ...


It's not like it really matters if both parties can react and move outside of spacetime, which exceeds everything that we understand as it is.

As it is, I find infinite speed funky. It operates on the base that one can have displacement with the time to traverse some distance being zero, correct? That describes teleportation more than doing stuff outside of spacetime, because outside of space, there is no location A or location B. Ergo, one cannot technically have displacement at all outside of spacetime. At least, that's my understanding.

This is why I find it more prudent to apply feats performed in the confines of spacetime to a case where spacetime exists, at least for a situation in which both characters have taken action outside of spacetime.


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## Calamity (Apr 7, 2013)

[FONT=&quot]





SuperTacocat said:


> It's not like it really matters if both parties can react and move outside of spacetime, which exceeds everything that we understand as it is.
> 
> As it is, I find infinite speed funky. It operates on the base that one can have displacement with the time to traverse some distance being zero, correct? That describes teleportation more than doing stuff outside of spacetime, because outside of space, there is no location A or location B. Ergo, one cannot technically have displacement at all outside of spacetime. At least, that's my understanding.
> 
> This is why I find it more prudent to apply feats performed in the confines of spacetime to a case where spacetime exists, at least for a situation in which both characters have taken action outside of spacetime.



True. 

Now that you mention it, Infinite reactions would likely be a more fitting term for these kind of feats. In the wiki, its listed under reactions: [/FONT]
[DLMURL]Link removed 
EM and the others call it that as well.
This topic probably needs some more discussion though.

If both of them have it, it comes down to who has more power and hax which from the looks of things seems to be STTGL. A blitz is not taking place though. 




 [/FONT]


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 7, 2013)

MohsinMan99 said:


> From the short clip that I once watched, it seemed he restored the universe after it was completely destroyed(i.e. both time and space) so effectively taking actions outside of time.



Well, I think that's more to him having no other options 
I wouldn't be so quick to assign him outside time status as the standard tbh


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

Curious, where does it actually say that the bomb razes spacetime?


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 7, 2013)

It was pretty obvious in the episode, I guess you could make an argument Time wasn't erased, but 1. Ben seems to access Alien X's personalities from some other Dimension where time may/may not exist anyways 2. everything was literally just erased as per visuals

Err, I think that makes sense


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

I thought I remembered a statement from one of those personalities that they had several millenniums worth of indecision backed up. Would they describe themselves in a measure of time if they didn't exist in it?


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## OtherGalaxy (Apr 7, 2013)

Makes sense
So it could be argued basically that when Ben's in their dimension he's still affected by time

It's not like the Alien X body really does anything anyways...


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## Cave Jansen (Apr 7, 2013)

Maybe because they control the flow themselves? At some point one of the heads did said they change the very nature of space and time.


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## Calamity (Apr 7, 2013)

OtherGalaxy said:


> Well, I think that's more to him having no other options
> I wouldn't be so quick to assign him outside time status as the standard tbh



Like I said, I was simply arguing based on what I saw in the clip.
If there's other material that contradicts it and mentions he was in some other dimension or the bomb didn't destroy time or the universe wasn't completely destroyed or whatever, he's not gonna get the outside time stuff.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm not so sure really.

Taking an action outside of time has nothing to do with taking an action while time is flowing.

Outside of time =/= No time taken.


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## Tacocat (Apr 7, 2013)

I just think the whole infinite speed/reaction time thing is kinda sketchy, as it tries to conceptualize something we might never have the capacity to understand. It's not particularly sound when one could simply disagree and no amount of existing reason could point to it being true.

That, and it's taking a sound concept, such as speed, and applying it to something completely irrelevant, such as the absence of spacetime.


To put it into analogous terms, speed is like a grilled cheese sandwich, wherein time is the cheese, space is the bread, and butter is the action.


Now, take the cheese out, and you've got buttered toast--completely different food altogether. This is teleportation. We do not by any means consider teleportation to be a speed, as displacement occurs over a time of 0. Okay, so now that we have our toast, we'll take the bread away too.


This is the butter, or the action. I don't think I've ever encountered a soul who happened across a stick of lard and dubbed it a grilled cheese sandwich. Likewise, we should not label movement or reaction in the absence of spacetime a speed.

At least, that's my take on it.


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## Calamity (Apr 7, 2013)

^They can be labeled as reactions if not speed. 

Best course of action would be making a thread in the Meta if you disagree and think this is a serious enough issue. Someone more versed in this topic would most probably be able to respond and address your issues better.
I am simply going by other arguments and explanations I've seen made for it which were previously accepted which IMO make a nice case for it.


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