# [Official] Tobi's identity thread



## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

Fucking Madara man


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## Coldhands (Oct 12, 2011)

*[Official] Edo Madara / Tobi's identity thread*





Kabuto's Sixth Coffin is Uchiha Madara himself? What does this mean, who the hell is Tobi? 

Discuss! 

---



JuubiSage said:


> My theory:
> 
> Madara used some secret jutsu to split his soul in two in VotE: Tobi and Madara. Madara died there, but Hashirama didn't know of the jutsu and Tobi was free to take Hashirama's cells after the battle and escape.
> 
> ...


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## Dark Red Z (Oct 12, 2011)

*Official Edo Madara Thread*

Enter the possibilities.


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

Geddinit


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## Egotism (Oct 12, 2011)

*Official: Tobi Is A Fraud*

Who the hell is this guy?


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 12, 2011)

This brings back fond memories of 'the 'Tobito' theories.


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## thetitansage (Oct 12, 2011)

*Tobi is obito*

It's obvious now that madara was in the coffin, plus his left eye was a s/t jutsu in kanji , and tobi is obito scrambled up missing one o


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## Godammit (Oct 12, 2011)

Obito.... It's back and possible !


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## Minato Namikaze. (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara


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## Godammit (Oct 12, 2011)

Obitoooooooooo is back


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## Gabe (Oct 12, 2011)

impossible he was not small like kakashi when he fought minato

clone madara


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## Godammit (Oct 12, 2011)

It's kinda weird, he was still alive when he met Nagato....But then he died and he took place in Tobi ... wich is weird because Tobi also said that Nagato would use Rinne tensei on himself... 

So Tobi is Madara and Madara is Tobi... 1 is dead one is alive..


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## Opuni (Oct 12, 2011)

seriously fact that he was expecting nagato to summon him means that his eyes are so powerful even in death they can control and dish out orders, this guy is just using harashima's body and a tobi decoy, awesome


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## Gaawa-chan (Oct 12, 2011)

Do you hear that?

...

... It is the sound of hundreds of angry fan-tards hitting the neg button!  Run for cover, OP! 


Edit: More seriously, lol.  I knew this chapter would bring entertainment.


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## Addy (Oct 12, 2011)

shut up OP


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

No one has ever looked so fucking badass:


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## Gabe (Oct 12, 2011)

he made an entrance. he destroyed the coffin, it was awesome


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## Egotism (Oct 12, 2011)

Just blowing off the coffin, Muu and the other Kages seem like Kids to him. That panel of above made my cock hard


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## Jeαnne (Oct 12, 2011)

man his lvl of badassness is unbelievable


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

Godammit said:


> Obitoooooooooo is back


Everything's possible now . I still say it's Izuna.

And wait, "EMS" Madara doesn't have EMS?


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## Kage (Oct 12, 2011)

what kind of fraud would go through all this trouble? it should be someone who has already been introduced to make any kind of sense...


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## Doge (Oct 12, 2011)

*Who IS Tobi?*

Madara had obviously died because Edo Tensei worked on him.

I believe he is some sort of zetsu clone, I wouldn't think an imposter would have access to zetsu goo, sharingan, space time, etc.


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

A clone of Madara.

Think about it, Madara knows exactly who Nagato is, meaning he didn't die back at VOTE. Furthermore, we witnessed Madara with two hair cuts roughly 16 years ago: Long hair, when he met Kisame; short hair, when he fought Minato.

Years later, he was seen with long hair again when Itachi met him, then short hair since.

The real one was the long-haired version that gave Nagato the Rinnegan, and created a clone of himself (Tobi). He then died at some point, probably around the Uchiha Massacre.


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## Godammit (Oct 12, 2011)

Volture said:


> Everything's possible now . I still say it's Izuna.
> 
> And wait, "EMS" Madara doesn't have EMS?



He has it most likely....


I think Tobi is just a copy of Real Madara, you know, a Zetsu Clone with Madara's mind and character.... It's fucking mindfucking


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## Aiku (Oct 12, 2011)

MADARA, YOU BEAST.


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## PikaCheeka (Oct 12, 2011)

So Obito had a complete personality turn-around, got a new brain, and developed a disturbing fetish for a dead guy he never met by the name of Hashirama?


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## Untitled (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi: OH FUCK.

Madara:


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

Godammit said:


> He has it most likely....
> 
> 
> I think Tobi is just a copy of Real Madara, you know, a Zetsu Clone with Madara's mind and character.... It's fucking mindfucking


Would be awesome as well, but it has less.. of an impact I'd say.


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## Egotism (Oct 12, 2011)

But hold up, Madara is in his old warrior outfit. Meaning Madara died with that on = The real Madara died at VOTE. We saw Madara with that same outfit on before he went up against the 1st.


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## shinethedown (Oct 12, 2011)

Yes because people who die for there friends suddenly get urges to take over the world.


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## Symon (Oct 12, 2011)

Notice the Left Eye isn't being shown....


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## gershwin (Oct 12, 2011)

The most awsome Uchiha ever!


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## Edo Madara (Oct 12, 2011)

he split himself into 2, that's the most logical explanation
2 madara running around, one dead and one alive will be twist though


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## thetitansage (Oct 12, 2011)

Gaawa-chan said:


> Do you hear that?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



haha dont worry I knew the shitstorm i would recieve when i wrote this


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## Aiku (Oct 12, 2011)

DAT MADARA.


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## Noitora (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi, y u lie to us!


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## Nagato Sennin (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara died with long hair and a warrior outfit Klue. Which Means he probably died at VOTE


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## Stringer Bell (Oct 12, 2011)

Awesome coffin exit!
Cool shot of him creeping behind Muu!
Amazing panel entrance and face close-up!  
Arms folded like a boss...what a fucking badass!

All Hail Uchiha Madara!


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## izanagi x izanami (Oct 12, 2011)

*So Tobi is Madara's errand boy?*

it seems Madara created this clown for some task, 
/


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## Fay (Oct 12, 2011)

Nidaime hokage :33


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

Egotism said:


> But hold up, Madara is in his old warrior outfit. Meaning Madara died with that on = The real Madara died at VOTE. We saw Madara with that same outfit on before he went up against the 1st.



He wore similar clothes - minus the armor - when he met Itachi. And it wouldn't make sense for him to die at VOTE if he knows Nagato.

He said: "That kid Nagato must have grown." Thinking he was revived with Rinne Tensei, he could only have made that statement if he met Nagato.



Nagato Sennin said:


> Madara died with long hair and a warrior outfit Klue. Which Means he probably died at VOTE



Right.

So he just randomly knows who Nagato is. 

And mind you, Kakuzu, Itachi and Nagato didn't die with non-Akatsuki issued cloaks on, did they?


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## Egotism (Oct 12, 2011)

Symon said:


> Notice the Left Eye isn't being shown....



Even in past pictures of him his left was never shown. His hair always covered it


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

Aiku said:


> DAT MADARA.


Really, how long has it been since we had such an epic entrance?


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## Symon (Oct 12, 2011)

Notice the Left Eye isn't being shown.... Tobi is his brother who plucked an eye before his before was buried... Screw that Tobi said that his brother died sometime after, most of the shit he spits out are lies.


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## Millennium (Oct 12, 2011)

So it begins.


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## Gaawa-chan (Oct 12, 2011)

shinethedown said:


> Yes because people who die for there friends suddenly get urges to take over the world.



Indeed.  Just like people who 'die' for their friends go on to want to happily slaughter every man, woman, and child that belongs to his home village, including said friends...

Not taking one side or the other, really, but you've got to admit that stranger things have happened.


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## Shadow_fox (Oct 12, 2011)

Knew it, I knew Madara had died... finally the non-believers can put their doubts to rest...


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## Edo Madara (Oct 12, 2011)

damn shit he make muu look like fodder


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## Minato Namikaze. (Oct 12, 2011)

Noitora said:


> Tobi, y u lie to us!



because hes a bad boy


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

Symon said:


> Notice the Left Eye isn't being shown....



You mean his right.


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## Krypton (Oct 12, 2011)

Don't you guys mean his right eye.


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## Ichiurto (Oct 12, 2011)

Whoever Tobi is.. He fucked up this guys rep.

You can just tell, this guy doesn't joke around. He wouldn't hide who he is.

Fucking Tobi man.. Hope realMadara rips the Rinn'egan and Sharingan right outta his sockets.


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## Mangetsu126 (Oct 12, 2011)

obiittoo, right eye = teleport, left eye = kakashi's space vacuum shit


obito has perfected the arts of being a boss after living in his teenage years like a pussy.


obito x kakashi = final battle

edo madara to rape stomp naruto and sasuke and make a new series of his own.

the world will bow down to the one and only uchiha thats actually dead, fuck this shit is fucking amazing


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

He is obviously a clone created from Madara and Hashirama's DNA, probably in the same manner that Hashirama's clone was created. He just didn't remove or fail to include a consciousness.

Tobi is essentially Madara too.



Shadow_fox said:


> Knew it, I knew Madara had died... finally the non-believers can put their doubts to rest...



Yeah, he died recently, very recently.


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## Godammit (Oct 12, 2011)

*Tobi is Madara's Clone*

Kinda simple tho


Madara before he died of some cause has made a clone of himself of a strengthed Zetsu Goo, mentally he was "Madara" all his t houghts and emotions and characterstics were transferred.... That's why Tobi think he's Madara because he thinks he is... But he knows that real Madara is dead, remember when he said to Zetsu that Nagato would use Rinne Tensei on himself (Tobi said "me")


We all know Tobi is a clone because of Minato's rasengan has shown or when he retrieves a new arm from a Zetsu hivemind, he can swap eyes easily...

But question remains why didn't Tobi order Nagato to ressurect Madara before the war even happened ?


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## Drums (Oct 12, 2011)

Could be, OP. I mean think about it, it'd be such a twist! 
and to people raging at the OP and denying it with such certainty, your points, for those who brought up any that is, are effing weak.

Anyways, its not that Im picking sides, either. Just pointing out the obvious.For the time being, I dont have an opinion on the matter. Could be any. But being Obito isnt improbable, no matter how strange it may seem to most. Anything can happen in Kishi's world.


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## Shadow_fox (Oct 12, 2011)

There is a much more simpler explanation, although a little unbelievabal: Obito was a clone created by Madara and inserted into Konoha. He used Genjutsu to whipe his memory or surpress it like Sasori did and to get close to Minato to learn the village's weaknesses. 

 But Obito gained a personality of his own and saved Kakashi, but before he died, his memories got unsealed and he used Izanagi with his right eye to survive the landslide.


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## Punpun (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is Zetsu. But A zetsu that touched Madara.


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## vered (Oct 12, 2011)

most likely a clone madara himself created before his death.
the real madara somehow knew about nagato and expected him to Resurrect him.nagato was like his experiment of some sort.


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## forkandspoon (Oct 12, 2011)

That line about Nagato..... Really weird


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## Stringer Bell (Oct 12, 2011)

Nothing has changed, Tobi is Madara.  How he [Tobi] is Madara is the mystery...


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## Mangetsu126 (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't think its possible for kishi to exceed the limits of making madara look like a complete boss, I don't think this is fair for other manga artists.

omg, madara is just....I honestly can't wait until he destroys unit 4 with his little finger.


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## Synn (Oct 12, 2011)

It can't be Obito.


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## Krypton (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is part of Madara somehow. Maybe he's a Zetsu with a part of Madara's soul.


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## SageRafa (Oct 12, 2011)

Obito , Kagami or Izuna ?


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## Shadow_fox (Oct 12, 2011)

I belive Tobi could be Madara's clone, created from Madara's DNA like the now living but mindless Hashirama clone is...


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## Kishido (Oct 12, 2011)

No he isn't

/thread


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

Yeah, I had this posted in the prediction thread:


Volture said:


> You know, this could be part of a nice set-up actually. Naruto defeats all the other edo's with ease and when faced with edo-Madara gets in a real pinch. Would really show Madara's strength.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


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## Gaawa-chan (Oct 12, 2011)

Gabe said:


> impossible he was not small like kakashi when he fought minato



Frankly I think this is the best argument against the Tobito theory but... Well, again, stranger things have happened in series.  You're putting a real-life limitation in a world where people can change their forms in all sorts of ways via magic. *shrugs*


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## Nagato Sennin (Oct 12, 2011)

Klue said:


> He wore similar clothes - minus the armor - when he met Itachi. And it wouldn't make sense for him to die at VOTE if he knows Nagato.
> 
> He said: "That kid Nagato must have grown." Thinking he was revived with Rinne Tensei, he could only have made that statement if he met Nagato.
> 
> ...



Mabye Nagato is not who we think he is


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## Malv213 (Oct 12, 2011)

Symon said:


> Notice the Left Eye isn't being shown.... Tobi is his brother who plucked an eye before his before was buried... Screw that Tobi said that his brother died sometime after, most of the shit he spits out are lies.



If Tobi is Izuna, then he'd actually have been telling the truth about his brother dying. He just switched the names. To be honest I'd be perfectly happy with both this or the zetsu clone thing. Edo Madara vs Pain Madara anyone?


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## Stringer Bell (Oct 12, 2011)

Nope      .


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## Hasan (Oct 12, 2011)

That pose! 

The atmosphere feels cold. Feels like Madara will clean the battlefield in one go.


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## Deaf Ninja Reaper (Oct 12, 2011)

Fuckin' boss!

He looks totally ready to rape the little brats. His entrance just speak LOUDER.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Oct 12, 2011)

its still madara.. just maybe a clone or something..


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## stevensr123 (Oct 12, 2011)

He makes itachi and sasuke look like a pair of pussies, By far the most bad ass looking character in this manga, Only hashirama has that type of presence IMO


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## Kage (Oct 12, 2011)

one madara was bad enough 

and this one spoke like he expected to come back anyway just not like this.


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## Crona (Oct 12, 2011)

He's simply too awesome for this manga


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm gonna start coloring this now .


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## vered (Oct 12, 2011)

looks like he will own the entire alliance.


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

10/10

God of the universe.


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## Summers (Oct 12, 2011)

I dont think its so clear cut. How the hell does Uchiha Madara know Nagato? That was around the second shinobi war? Madara battled Hashirama over the title Hokage.
Also he never Knew it was Edo Tensei that revived him and he mentioned that "it finally happened" does that mean he though Nagato revived him, and that the faux Madara statement about giving Nagato the Rinnengan was sorta true.

Who they hell killed Madara? So many freaking questions.


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## Pureblooded (Oct 12, 2011)

Maybe Madara is ressurected with both Rinne Tensei (Masked) and Edo Tensei (this guy) at the same time!

That's all I got, folks.


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## hellohi (Oct 12, 2011)

He looks Awesome and so does Muu standing so nonchalantly next to him!

This is one of the best chapters to pop up in a long time.:33


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## Deaf Ninja Reaper (Oct 12, 2011)

Other Edos just walked out of a coffin like a nervous kids

Madara? Nah, he fuckin' destroyed his bed-coffin like a pimp!

My body is not ready for his presence at all.

Tobi - We always knew that you aren't Madara Uchiha but who the fuck are you now?


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## Capthxc (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm going to stick with the little brother prediction.  I'm far too tired to explain, but it makes sense to me. 

Either that or a clone.  

If it ends up being Obitio i'm just going to facepalm yet again.


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## Synn (Oct 12, 2011)

He's a Madara-wannabe for sure.


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## BroKage (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is a Zetsu clone of Madara.


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## Edward Newgate (Oct 12, 2011)

It seems to me that Kishi is just complicating things now. Again, how did Madara fool Hashirama if both he and Tobi survived the fight? (It's obvious to me that Tobi is still Madara) shit doesn't make any sense.

I expect some bad writing.


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## Addy (Oct 12, 2011)

clone madara or robot madara


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## reggiefarnogg (Oct 12, 2011)

it's going to end up being either obito or shisui.

it just makes sense with tobi's arm(s) being zetsu goo and both of them losing arms.  Shisui however and obito getting crushed.


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## PikaCheeka (Oct 12, 2011)

Egotism said:


> But hold up, Madara is in his old warrior outfit. Meaning Madara died with that on = The real Madara died at VOTE. We saw Madara with that same outfit on before he went up against the 1st.



The clothing means nothing.

Unless Kabuto played dress-up-dollies with Itachi & co (which is very possible, unfortunately), ET's don't necessarily come back in the clothes they died in.


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## Recal (Oct 12, 2011)

Yeah... my mind has been blown. Congrats, Kishi. You've handed us some Grade-A intrigue here, no doubt about it.  I have lots of theories, but that line on Nagato is really throwing me off.

Edo Madara, you are looking good. Give the man some moisturiser to sort out those cracks and we're back in business.


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## Leon (Oct 12, 2011)

Gotta say, Madara presence's felt more powerful than anyone else before him. I mean seriously he's legendary. Gaara's unit is not getting away without huge loss. If Onoki lives through this i'll be astonished.


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## Shadow_fox (Oct 12, 2011)

One of the best entrances of all, Madara literally started with a bang: blowing off the coffin and all.

 Secondly, the guy looks really to kick ass and take names. 

 My thoughts when I first saw him were: "The sleeper has awakened and he's here to bring you Hell."


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## Reavie (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is a good boy.


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## Reavie (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is a good boy.


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## Jizznificent (Oct 12, 2011)

his entrance and appearance was too fucking glorious! 

DAT OUTFIT, DAT SWAGGER!


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## Nimander (Oct 12, 2011)

Well, we know that the "real" Madara was alive at least up until his coming face-to-face with Itachi, back when Itachi figured out who he was. 

But then that means that the "Madara" who wiped out Konoha was the fake one, if his hairstyle is anything to go by.  

Damn, Kishi.  I didn't think he could add even more mysteries at this point in the story, but he's making it happen somehow lol.


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## Zaeed (Oct 12, 2011)

I was blown away by his entrance. Shit is getting real. I look forward to seeing the colorings of the scene.

We need a real Madara fanclub now as well.


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## Summers (Oct 12, 2011)

The ol switcharoo. We have been speculating constantly about what dead character was in the 6th coffin, and now that we know and that its Madara. Its making us wonder, if Tobi isnt some clone Madara then what dead character could he be?


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## mayumi (Oct 12, 2011)

Couldnt the current tobi ressurect madara himself now that he has riinegan? Why wait for kabuto to summon him? Is this a case of clone gone wild?
Both tobi and madara existed together at one point. Iy could also be like black and white zetsu. He split himself after obtaining hashirama cells.


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## jimbob631 (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi seems like such a fraud in this chapter.  He's even drawn poorly, the alliance should be ashamed.  Just assumed some guy in a mask was Madara.


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

mayumi said:


> Couldnt the current tobi ressurect madara himself now that he has riinegan? Why wait for kabuto to summon him? Is this a case of clone gone wild?
> Both tobi and madara existed together at one point. Iy could also be like black and white zetsu. He split himself after obtaining hashirama cells.



Kabuto prepared Madara with Edo Tensei prior to Tobi gaining the Rinnegan. Maybe Rinne Tensei can't revive him until the technique is undone.


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## Mangetsu126 (Oct 12, 2011)

uchiha kagami, possible :3


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## Thompson (Oct 12, 2011)

I think that Madara's first words when out of the coffin proves that he truly was the one who "gave" Nagato rinnegan. The question is, how does Tobi know Madara did that?


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 12, 2011)

I hate to say 'I told you so' but...I told you so. Tobi isn't Madara. As bad a writer as some of you believed Kishimoto to be, I never thought he would be so poor a writer as to have Madara be the main antagonist. Itachi is still roaming around, right? My money is on Shisui. Anyway, seeing prime Madara in action should be pretty interesting if nothing else. I wonder if Sasuke will get to fight him.


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## BroKage (Oct 12, 2011)

Ichiurto said:


> Whoever Tobi is.. He fucked up this guys rep.
> 
> You can just tell, this guy doesn't joke around. He wouldn't hide who he is.
> 
> Fucking Tobi man.. Hope realMadara rips the Rinn'egan and Sharingan right outta his sockets.



This. But maybe he only wears the mask cuz he's ugly as fuck.


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

Xenonofied said:


> We need a real Madara fanclub now as well.


Do it .


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> It seems to me that Kishi is just complicating things now. Again, how did Madara fool Hashirama if both he and Tobi survived the fight? (It's obvious to me that Tobi is still Madara) shit doesn't make any sense.
> 
> I expect some bad writing.



He survived the battle - with some jutsu only he knows - and went onto create  Zetsu, and a clone of himself (Tobi) and Hashirama, thereafter.

What's the, Problem?


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## BlazeD (Oct 12, 2011)

epic edo-madara WILL be epic.


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

BlazeD said:


> epic edo-madara WILL be epic.


Correction: IS.


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## Ice Sage (Oct 12, 2011)

Godammit said:


> Obito.... It's back and possible !


I hope so


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## Arkevil (Oct 12, 2011)

Mind-Fuckery.


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## Summers (Oct 12, 2011)

Reeeeal Ninjaaaaa's are real.


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## Random Stranger (Oct 12, 2011)

I just hope this Edo Madara is a Madara at full power.

And not some bullshit like "because he split his soul in two (Tobi and dead Madara) before dying, he now only has half the power he used to have".

Please


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 12, 2011)

He's definitely got the looks.And he's definitely more impressive than Tobi's ever been (though that's not saying much at all..)

Other than visuals.. we'll see.Hope he doesn't just spam the known MS techs..


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## gabzilla (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobito lives


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## DragonSlayer (Oct 12, 2011)

about half of this forum just got trolled big time.


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)




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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

Random Stranger said:


> I just hope this Edo Madara is a Madara at full power.
> 
> And not some bullshit like "because he split his soul in two (Tobi and dead Madara) before dying, he now only has half the power he used to have".
> 
> Please



Guarantee you that everything Tobi said about Madara is true, just applied to the real one and not himself (the clone).

Fought Hashirama to gain his power, survived vote, assimilated Hashirama's power, became a Rikudou, gave Nagato the Rinnegan, and didn't attack Konoha with the Kyuubi, his clone did.


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## jgalt7 (Oct 12, 2011)

he's gonna fodderize the alliance.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Oct 12, 2011)

Well, this just got interesting


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## JiraiyaTheGallant (Oct 12, 2011)

His entrance rocked the fuck out of me, but at the same time, it also opened new questions.

Props to Kishi. He really knows how to intrigue.


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## Star★Platinum (Oct 12, 2011)

It's likely still Madara.

Tobi (let's call him that) In the Kage summit spoke of wanting to become complete, he then got himself the Rinnegan which contains the rebirthing ability Nagato used on the village of Konoha.  Now let's fast forward to this chapter,  Madara was revived, he immediatly mentions 'That brat Nagato' And how he seemingly managaed to 'grow' (his abilities to be able to use that jutsu)  And assumed his resurrection was due to this, As if he had planned it all and was expecting it, but was surprised when he was told of Edo tensei.  Both men mention the same thing.  Tobi has been shown to be made from a wierd 'white' substance similiar to zetsu, who also has Hashirama's cells which Madara took during the battle with Him.  So perhaps this is all part of a long term plan.

If it's NOT Madara (At least a shadow, or clone version) and some elaborate hoax, that would make everything they've been building up pretty void. Tobi said himself he's 'Madara, but a shell of his former self'  Well, that former self is out now, so let's see what he does.

(I wonder if he can 'become complete' While Madara's out in the open)


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## SageRafa (Oct 12, 2011)

Klue said:


> Guarantee you that everything Tobi said about Madara is true, just applied to the real one and not himself (the clone).
> 
> Fought Hashirama to gain his power, survived vote, assimilated Hashirama's power, became a Rikudou, gave Nagato the Rinnegan, and didn't attack Konoha with the Kyuubi, his clone did.



*Currently * that statements are all bs lies :ho


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## kelechimaster (Oct 12, 2011)

*who is tobi*


*Spoiler*: __ 



kabutomaru summoned madara in that last coffin


 so who is tobi *Minato thought it for a sec, but then said that it was impossible and it didn't matter either way..*


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## NarutoIzDaMan (Oct 12, 2011)

Like others have said, it is highly likely that Tobi is a part of Madara and was originally planning to rejoin with his "other half" all along. Can't wait to see the story behind it, things have finally gotten interesting again.


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## Thdyingbreed (Oct 12, 2011)

One thing that's been bothering me is, how in the hell did he know that Nagato had grown up? 

If he's been dead for all this time.


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## Mio Akiyama (Oct 12, 2011)

Wrong section.
This should be in the KT.


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## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

JiraiyaTheGallant said:


> His entrance rocked the fuck out of me, but at the same time, it also opened new questions.
> 
> Props to Kishi. He really knows how to intrigue.


Yeah, the writing may not be the best ever, but when it has moments like these, they're goooood.


----------



## shinethedown (Oct 12, 2011)

Shit is going down

I smell character deaths


----------



## kelechimaster (Oct 12, 2011)

oh thanks i'll repost


----------



## Datakim (Oct 12, 2011)

mayumi said:


> Couldnt the current tobi ressurect madara himself now that he has riinegan? Why wait for kabuto to summon him? Is this a case of clone gone wild?
> Both tobi and madara existed together at one point. Iy could also be like black and white zetsu. He split himself after obtaining hashirama cells.



Maybe Tobi does not have enough power for that. Did Nagato not say that even he could only revive the recently dead? Maybe thats why Madara/Tobi chose Nagato in the first place for the rinnegan. He hoped that as an Uzumaki, Nagato would eventually possess the necessary chakra to bring even the real Madara back.

Heck, maybe the whole moon eye plan thing was just a fake all along, and the real reason Tobi wants to recreate the Juubi is because it would give him the necessary level of power to use Rinne Tensei to restore the true Madara.


----------



## Brickhunt (Oct 12, 2011)

There is enough speculation for like two weeks, I'm surprised that there isn't a chapter break next week. So yeah, turn out that the sixth coffin really was Madara, but there's still so many puzzles pieces regarding Tobi's knowlegde.

But I'm satisfied with one thing, at least to jossed that retarded theory that Tobi was Madara's spirit in Obito's body.


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Oct 12, 2011)

Yeah I subscribe to the theory that both Tobi and Madara are both Madara. Tobi is probably a clone created from Hashirama's and Madara's DNA and has Madara's personality and goal.


----------



## SageRafa (Oct 12, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> One thing that's been bothering me is, how in the hell did he know that Nagato had grown up?
> 
> If he's been dead for all this time.




He was expecting to be brought back [in the future] by Nagato's Rinne Tensei, so he thought Nagato had grown and could finnally use the tech and revive him when he saw himself alive "again".

But after that Muu told him about Edo Tensei and he saw it didn't happen as he planned


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Oct 12, 2011)

It's clearly Kishi under that mask, that's how he trolls so efficiently. Either that or it's Zetsu...or maybe someone from the future...maybe it's still Madara...fuck who knows anymore. 

I'm more interested in knowing how long Kishi plans to drag this out, I can be patience for most plot twists but this...fuck I need to know now.


----------



## DisgustingIdiot (Oct 12, 2011)

It must be Obito!




trololololol


----------



## Schmeiser (Oct 12, 2011)

vered said:


> most likely a clone madara himself created before his death.
> the real madara somehow knew about nagato and expected him to Resurrect him.nagato was like his experiment of some sort.



I wonder does he have hashirama cells then, if he can use all the abilities tobi has plus his own with EMS, the alliance is raped


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Oct 12, 2011)

Kishi lately with both the Mizukage and this is in troll mode. Which does make his chapters more enjoyable, I guess.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Oct 12, 2011)

Taking a post from my other thread i said:

*"*I wonder if he still has S/T techniques, The one reason i see against it is because Tobi is supposed to be a shell of his former self, he wants his body back, he's like a ghost.. Hence why the S/T techniques (the phasing) is almost Ghost like and limited to him in a way. Sort of a symbolism.*"*


----------



## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

i have said for 2 years now that *Tobi is not Madara*... i told you so

UCHIHAHAHA

for all the people that said "Tobi has to be Madara".... you know who you are 

lemon pie in your face... all over your face


----------



## Bane (Oct 12, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> It seems to me that Kishi is just complicating things now. Again, how did Madara fool Hashirama if both he and Tobi survived the fight? (It's obvious to me that Tobi is still Madara) shit doesn't make any sense.
> 
> I expect some bad writing.



Its obvious to me that I was right and Izuna Uchiha found a way to acquire new eyes and his brother really did die at the valley of the end. I cant wait to find out that I was right.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Oct 12, 2011)

jacamo said:


> i have said for 2 years now that *Tobi is not Madara*... i told you so
> 
> UCHIHAHAHA
> 
> ...



Where's the proof saying it isn't him?
It still most likely is, that's the general consensus. 
He's just a shell of his former self, like he said, remember?


----------



## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

KSM Naruto said:


> Its obvious to me that I was right and Izuna Uchiha found a way to acquire new eyes and his brother really did die at the valley of the end. I cant wait to find out that I was right.


Same here.

Izuna got new eyes, received the news of his brother being killed by Hashirama and thinks up a plan for revenge. Would be awesome.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Oct 12, 2011)

Honestly I'm really starting to believe that Madara used Muu's technique, because I mean it explains the whole "shell of his former self" that he considers himself.

Which would result from losing half of your power, and technically they should be able to fuse since Muu would of been able to rejoin with edo side, so I don't think it's implausible.


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Oct 12, 2011)

jacamo said:


> i have said for 2 years now that *Tobi is not Madara*... i told you so
> 
> UCHIHAHAHA
> 
> ...



When it comes to fictional writing...anything is possible. I didn't really think about it, but I've seen people saying it could still be Madara, and it seems more likely then him being anyone else still. Until Kishi reveals who is actually Tobi, then there is no confirmation for certain that he isn't Madara.


----------



## Coldhands (Oct 12, 2011)

My theory:

Madara used some secret jutsu to split his soul in two in VotE: Tobi and Madara. Madara died there, but Hashirama didn't know of the jutsu and Tobi was free to take Hashirama's cells after the battle and escape.

Tobi is literally a shell of his former self because he is only half of the original Madara's soul. He needed Nagato to sue Gedo: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu to resurrect the other half and to unite his soul once again to become _complete_, but Kabuto already had resurrected the other half with Edo Tensei. After Tobi got Rinnegan he couldn't resurrect the other half of the soul because Kabuto was in control of it already.

Now Tobi needs Edo Madara to die or be sealed so he can unite his soul and become complete once again.


----------



## kristibrud (Oct 12, 2011)

This basically means Gaara, Onoki, Temari and everyone else there is dead, right?

I mean. Muu and Madara. There ain't nothin' the alliance can do there.


----------



## iGoku (Oct 12, 2011)

*TOBI IS MARADAS BROTHER*

i called it here it is either madaras brother or itachis best friend nuff said OR the unlikely option

*Spoiler*: __ 




​



and one more thing

what is wrong with people these days? people complaning about not seeing enough kakashi?

WHAT IS WRONG WITH EVERYONE. MIGHT GUY AND MEI HAVE DONE JACK THIS WAR BUT I DONT SEE PEOPLE COMPLANING ABOUT THAT. TYPICAL BIASED FANS.


----------



## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

X Itachi X said:


> Where's the proof saying it isn't him?



the proof is Kabuto just summoned Uchiha Madara as an Edo Tensei

its over



X Itachi X said:


> It still most likely is, that's the general consensus.
> He's just a shell of his former self, like he said, remember?



like he said?  just like he said the Kyubi attack was a natural disaster? 

you're clutching at straws if you still think Tobi is Madara through soul-splitting or some stupid Harry Potter horcrux theory

"shell of a former self" doesnt have to be explained explicitly... Tobi can simply be a Zetsu clone with all Madara's memories in order to revive his real self 

because as far as we know souls cant be split up, they can only be transferred as we saw with Orochimaru


----------



## ZubbaZubba (Oct 12, 2011)

I bet you any money that Tobi is a clone created from a test tube similar to the Sandaime double we saw earlier that was responsible for the birth of Zetsu.

My guess is that Tobi was a perfect clone created through genetics by Madara as a means to curb death and create a durable body (how many limbs has Tobi replaced now?) that may be immune to aging/ fatigue (a perfect host for Jyuubi if you will).  

And as a perfect clone, it retained all of Madara's memories/abilities except for one thing, it developed it's own sense of self.  And rather than Tobi submitting himself to Madara (think Sasuke and Oro), he instead took out the original and proceeded with the Jyuubi plan because Tobi saw himself as the future.


----------



## Bane (Oct 12, 2011)

I made this prediction before the war even started. >_>


----------



## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

ZubbaZubba said:


> And as a perfect clone, it retained all of Madara's memories/abilities except for one thing, it developed it's own sense of self.  And rather than Tobi submitting himself to Madara (think Sasuke and Oro), he instead took out the original and proceeded with the Jyuubi plan because Tobi saw himself as the future.



But Tobi wanted Nagato use Rinne Tensei. Obviously, to revive Madara.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Oct 12, 2011)

jacamo said:


> the proof is Kabuto just summoned Uchiha Madara as an Edo Tensei
> 
> its over
> 
> ...




Eh, alright then, feel free to come back when you're wrong and apologise.
Tobi said he was Madara, has a detailed knowledge on Madara's history,  And wanted the same thing (Nagato's rebirth jutsu) That Madara planned to have Nagato do (So that Nagato brat managed to grow).   Seriously, Kishi isn't going to have written all this up to just knock it down and have Tobi be a nobody. Tobi = Shell of former self  Madara = Former self.


----------



## .access timeco. (Oct 12, 2011)

I go with Izuna.


----------



## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

Killer Zylos Wolf said:


> When it comes to fictional writing...anything is possible. I didn't really think about it, but I've seen people saying it could still be Madara, and it seems more likely then him being anyone else still. Until Kishi reveals who is actually Tobi, then there is no confirmation for certain that he isn't Madara.



the possibility is always there, but Kishi hasnt done soul-splitting before so...

it could still be Madara in some weird way but now its *very unlikely[/B}



X Itachi X said:



			Eh, alright then, feel free to come back when you're wrong and apologise.
Tobi said he was Madara, has a detailed knowledge on Madara's history,  And wanted the same thing (Nagato's rebirth jutsu) That Madara planned to have Nagato do (So that Nagato brat managed to grow).   Seriously, Kishi isn't going to have written all this up to just knock it down and have Tobi be a nobody. Tobi = Shell of former self  Madara = Former self.
		
Click to expand...


if im wrong i will apologise

because the only way im going to be wrong is if Madara's soul is in Obito's corpse or something... or if he split his soul/some off-the-wall horcrux theory that just makes you go 

i wont be apologising if Tobi = pure Zetsu with Madara's memories

i wont be apologising if Tobi = Shisui/Izuna/Kagami

in fact if Tobi = Kagami i will be dishing out some more gloating*


----------



## Rokudaime (Oct 12, 2011)

No wonder Black Zetsu always call the "Madara" Tobi...There is a reason behind this...Well played, Kishimoto.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Oct 12, 2011)

jacamo said:


> if im wrong i will apologise
> 
> because the only way im going to be wrong is if Madara's soul is in Obito's corpse or something... or if he split his soul/some off-the-wall horcrux theory that just makes you go
> 
> ...



We already know Tobi (Madara) Has some zetsu DNA implanted into him though, from the white substance his limbs were seemingly made from.  The fact he took some of Hashirama's DNA,  Zetsu's have this DNA, and he has a bit of Zetsu implanted into his is all pretty strange.  But he's most certainly Madara in one way or another.


----------



## Appleofeden (Oct 12, 2011)

Random Stranger said:


> I just hope this Edo Madara is a Madara at full power.
> 
> And not some bullshit like "because he split his soul in two (Tobi and dead Madara) before dying, he now only has half the power he used to have".
> 
> Please



Me too, I want Edo Madara 2 b @ fullpower. Able 2 control the Kyuubi and using EMS. I wonder if this Madara has shodai cells, I don't want him 2. I  want 2 see y pre vote Madara was so feared.


----------



## chipnoses (Oct 12, 2011)

Mangetsu126 said:


> I don't think its possible for kishi to exceed the limits of making madara look like a complete boss, I don't think this is fair for other manga artists.
> 
> omg, madara is just....I honestly can't wait until he destroys unit 4 with his little finger.



hahahah so true!


----------



## Mei Lin (Oct 12, 2011)

*Tobi is Obito confirmed*

He never died , he's been controlled. That's. Why Kishi hinted Kakashi would play a big role.in this war. It's too obvious


----------



## Appleofeden (Oct 12, 2011)

I hope not & I think people are complaining more about not seeing kakashis rampage than just seeing more kakashi. I for one have waited almost 500 ch 2 see the 7 swordsman and their fight was off-paneled. Madara stole the spot light this ch. & I'm perfectly fine with it.


----------



## Thor (Oct 12, 2011)

That explains why his space time jutsu is the exact opposite of Kakashi's Kamui.


----------



## Ezekial (Oct 12, 2011)

Mei Lin said:


> He never died , he's been controlled. That's. Why Joshua hinted Kakashi would play a big role.in this war. It's too obvious



Obito = Tobi is actually starting to make sense


----------



## Talis (Oct 12, 2011)

One step closer to Kakashis year. 
Like i said it so many freaking times.
Kishi delayed revealing Tobis identity last year because he probably decided to put in this war so he leaved us showing us a part of Tobis face (which pretty much looked as Obito). 
And now look at the current manga state again. 
*2 Months left for the end of this year.*
1: Kishi already hinted us that Tobi isnt Madara or at least not in his body.
2: the year almost end and yet we didnt see any sign of the ''Kakashis year''?
Swordsmen are almost done. When they are finished guess which squad is going to kick '''Tobis face along with the mask''.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Kakashi squad+Kages. Kakashi will either break that mask with a Chidori or Kamui it and we will see his old mate again. 




Btw we still dont know how Rin died.
I bet you she was looking for Obitos death body but couldnt find it, then afer it she got killed by some ninjas.


----------



## Gabe (Oct 12, 2011)

doubt it since he was old looking when facing minato unlike kakashi who was a kid and they were suppose ti be the same age.


----------



## Stringer Bell (Oct 12, 2011)

Mei Lin said:


> He never died , he's been controlled. That's. Why Joshua hinted Kakashi would play a big role.in this war. It's too obvious



Who is Joshua?


----------



## Linkdarkside (Oct 12, 2011)

Volture said:


> Really, how long has it been since we had such an epic entrance?


hell yeah!


----------



## PoinT_BlanK (Oct 12, 2011)

> Tobi is Obito confirmed



No.



Stringer Bell said:


> Who is Joshua?



I was wondering the same.


----------



## Trance Kuja (Oct 12, 2011)

Gabe said:


> doubt it since he was old looking when facing minato unlike kakashi who was a kid and they were suppose ti be the same age.



Maybe it isnt actually Madara but his brother?  I mean, hee did have a brother.  I wouldnt put it past Kishi to make this a cliffhanger with everyone going "Whoa Madara, total mind screw?!" just for him to start off the next chapter going "actually, no, I'm his brother, John".

There's always the possibility that the evil madara is possessed.  Maybe that "uchiha demon" thing in statue form is a spirit that inhabits the bodies of Uchihas through the ages to cause chaos! I dont know...sounds like fanfic...nevermind.

Anyway, Tobi = Obito does seem credible, but the battle against Minato is a big, BIG strike against it.  Kakashi was still young at the point, wasnt he?  So Obito would have been young as well.  Although, the fight between them could have much later...we dont know how much time has passed between Minato being their teacher and Obito dying to ninetails attacking.

I suppose it could be possible that Kakashi is actually a young Adult by the point (early twenties, late teens maybe?) meaning Obito would look accurate.  I mean, animes are notorious for having adult looking males and females actually be only like 13 or so; its kinda hard to tell anyones age just by looking.  Anyway...anyone got a timeline of the Naruto verse?  Can anyone tell how much time has passed between Obito's death and the 9tails attack?


----------



## Appleofeden (Oct 12, 2011)

Ezekial said:


> Obito = Tobi is actually starting to make sense



No it doesn't.


----------



## Pando (Oct 12, 2011)

is it possible that madara used orochimaru's technique to jump into obito?


----------



## Talis (Oct 12, 2011)

Trance Kuja said:


> Maybe it isnt actually Madara but his brother?  I mean, hee did have a brother.  I wouldnt put it past Kishi to make this a cliffhanger with everyone going "Whoa Madara, total mind screw?!" just for him to start off the next chapter going "actually, no, I'm his brother, John".
> 
> There's always the possibility that the evil madara is possessed.  Maybe that "uchiha demon" thing in statue form is a spirit that inhabits the bodies of Uchihas through the ages to cause chaos! I dont know...sounds like fanfic...nevermind.
> *
> ...



Remember he had Zetsu goo which might made his body grow taller?
And it makes sense also that Tobi lost against Minato, imagine if Tobi killed Minato with his bare hands and Kishi would reveal us that Tobi=Obito can you imagine how freaking mad Naruto fans would have reacted?


----------



## Jinchuuriki (Oct 12, 2011)

*Tobi's identity revealed.*

Tobi's identity is non other than *drums* marada's little brother!! 
He is pretending to be the dead older brother and he lied to sasuke that the younger brother died. Madara and tobi have exchanged eyes to both acquire the eternal MS.

Madara is dead, confirmed in the latest chapter. but look at tobi's hair! it's identical to madara's little brothers hair:

[sp][/sp]


----------



## ch1p (Oct 12, 2011)

I thought it was him all along as well. Him or Izuna, but since there are lies (probably) with this scenario, not much is lost. Sasuke will still think he's shoddy and investigate his lies.

Now, who is Tobi / Madara, whatever that thing is. Obito? Izuna? Shisui? Sasuke from the future? I'd laugh. I like the soul split idea the best. All the other candidates don't resonate well as final villain.

BTW this split soul thing is an old thing. Harry Potter didn't invent it.



Klue said:


> Guarantee you that everything Tobi said about Madara is true, just applied to the real one and not himself (the clone).
> 
> Fought Hashirama to gain his power, survived vote, assimilated Hashirama's power, became a Rikudou, gave Nagato the Rinnegan, a*nd didn't attack Konoha with the Kyuubi, his clone did*.



I can see Tobi trolling hard with technicalities. It would be pretty good.


----------



## Trance Kuja (Oct 12, 2011)

Wait..what?  I dont know...seems like a stretch.  Did he know Zetsu back then?  And sure, Zetsu is good, but you think he really prepared to have a Zetsu clone ready when attacking the village thinking Minato would confront him?  I mean...maybe, but it really seems like a stretch.  

Tobi/Madara might be someone else entirely.  Hell, we might find out next that Sasuke's dad actually was alive and orchestrated the whole thing as Madara?  Meh...nevermind, that sounds dumb too.  I dont know, I dont think Madara knew Zetsu at that point and I dont think Obito (assuming its him) would have so quickly turned on his former teacher.  yeah, Pain did it to Jiraiya as we've seen, but that was an enormous span of time in which his distaste for the world could grow.


----------



## mayumi (Oct 12, 2011)

i wonder if real madara has something to do with uzumaki clan destruction considering he knew of little nagato.


----------



## MissingShinobi (Oct 12, 2011)

I'd like to and used to think so as well, but whoever it is.. I get the vibe that they are sort of body swapping. I don't think it's Obito in mind, but quite likely is in body/sharingan. Sort of how Danzou had multiple Uchiha eyes to use, this person could be utilizing dead Uchiha bodies.


----------



## Oahgneg (Oct 12, 2011)

Or it could be Kagami.


----------



## Mei Lin (Oct 12, 2011)

Gabe said:


> doubt it since he was old looking when facing minato unlike kakashi who was a kid and they were suppose ti be the same age.



Kakashi wasn't a kid than when Minato fought Tobi, he was like a young adult already, Tobi was.quite young himself, around Kakashis height. Timeskip already since he's supposely death

Ps. My HTC phone translate Kishi.as.Joshua


----------



## Ferno (Oct 12, 2011)

Two very strong candidates for the identity of Tobi are: Zetsu clone and Obito. I would think Tobi is a blend of both; an Obito repaired with Zetsu goo, rather than being either/or.


----------



## auem (Oct 12, 2011)

soul transfer jutsu by madara...nothing better than a uchhiha body,even if it is damaged..
it also match with why tobi always hide his left eye;because obito gave away that eye...ever since then he is using transplanted eye in left side,with original obito eye intact in the right side....


----------



## Chibason (Oct 12, 2011)

I like the idea that it's Shisui or Kagami......but I still think it's part of Madara....


----------



## thetitansage (Oct 12, 2011)

I made a thread earlier today saying the same exact thing and got called and idiot not cool


----------



## GRIMMM (Oct 12, 2011)

As I said in another thread.



Umbrella said:


> Is Tobi actually Obito..?
> 
> Or perhaps Madara's brother?


----------



## Ferno (Oct 12, 2011)

Kishi is going for universal impact. See sixth coffin for further details, where any reader could familiarize and recognize someone as iconic as Madara. Izuna is too minor and forgettable; he'll be resurrected with the Uchiha clan when Tobi does his own Edo Tensei.

The strongest non-Madara (Tobi could be the other 'half' of Madara) identity for Tobi is Obito, who has a whole array of evidence to suggest it's him - the most convincing being: it's no coincidence that his space-time sharingan jutsu has essence in Tobi's teleportation tech.


----------



## Kiss (Oct 12, 2011)

Perhaps it's Obito.


----------



## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

auem said:


> soul transfer jutsu by madara...nothing better than a uchhiha body,even if it is damaged..
> it also match with why tobi always hide his left eye;because obito gave away that eye...ever since then he is using transplanted eye in left side,with original obito eye intact in the right side....



it would be pretty neat if this turned out to be true

Obito is dead... but Madara transferred his soul into Obito's body

this created Tobi... but maybe the soul transfer jutsu wasnt as perfect as he thought because the real Madara can still be summoned with Edo Tensei


----------



## Jinchuuriki (Oct 12, 2011)

the man behind the mask is

[sp][/sp]


----------



## ThunderRaikage (Oct 12, 2011)

tobi=madara no doubt about it.
tobi is a shell of his prime,maybe he splitted himself or create a clone (tobi)..


----------



## MYJC (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is a Zetsu-clone of Madara, created with Madara's right eye and the 1st's DNA. Madara probably created him sometime after VotE. 

Since he had DNA from Madara and Hashirama, he had the Rinnegan. But, being a clone, he wasn't strong enough to use it that effectively, so Madara (the original) took the Rinnegan from Tobi and gave it to a descendant of the Uzumaki clan (Nagato). The reason is members of that clan had a lot of chakra and vitality, so they could use it more effectively than a clone. The real Madara died relatively recently (sometime after the Uchiha Massacre) and was expecting Nagato to eventually resurrect him with Rinne Tensei.


----------



## Thdyingbreed (Oct 12, 2011)

You know it finally makes sense why Madara was pissed off when Nagato used, his Rinnei Tensei during the Invasion of Konoha arc, he wanted it for his other half

Edo Madara stating he wanted it used on him just confirms it.


----------



## MYJC (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is a Zetsu-clone of Madara, created with Madara's right eye and the 1st's DNA. Madara probably created him sometime after VotE.

Since he had DNA from Madara and Hashirama, he had the Rinnegan. But, being a clone, he wasn't strong enough to use it that effectively, so Madara (the original) took the Rinnegan from Tobi and gave it to a descendant of the Uzumaki clan (Nagato). The reason is members of that clan had a lot of chakra and vitality, so they could use it more effectively than a clone. The real Madara died relatively recently (sometime after the Uchiha Massacre) and was expecting Nagato to eventually resurrect him with Rinne Tensei.


----------



## ZionHalcyon (Oct 12, 2011)

gabzilla said:


> Tobito lives



Yep, and with Izanagi, we have a plausable theory too in terms of how Obito got out of that jam.  The question to make the theory work is how Obito came across izanagi, or was there someone else involved?


I still maintain Kakashi Gaiden was as important to the Naruto arc as everything else, and not just a cute side story or history of Kakashi.  The fact that they made a big to-do about it between parts 1 and two tells me we haven't seen the last of Obito...


----------



## nightmaremage99 (Oct 12, 2011)

*who IS Tobi?*

I know.

Tobi is Madara's child who was born shortly after the Senju and the Uchiha founded Konoha. He was a mere infant when his father fought against Hashirama at VoTE, where Madara lost but used izanagi to flee the scene. He then ran away from the village with his infant son.

Madara then spent the rest of his remaining life training Tobi to become one of the strongest ninjas to ever have lived and instilled into him a hatred of Konoha. At the same time, Madara spent the remainder of his time creating Akatsuki, the black and white zetsu, and finding an infant Uzumaki and giving him a pair of new eyes while he and his parents were sleeping.

Eventually, he passed away from old age, and Tobi took up his father's title and name and fought for decades to complete Madara's plan for revenge against Konoha and domination over the entire world.

Hence the reason Tobi was ungodly pissed off when he saw Kabuto bring Madara back in a coffin. Hence the reason Tobi knew what to do with Nagato. Hence the reason Tobi had the sharingan and power strong enough to control the Kyuubi.


----------



## sasuke sakura (Oct 12, 2011)

he is too old to be obito ...........

no i think he may be sasukes father(i forgot his name) its just an idea

it would be much cooler that way^_^


----------



## Nashima (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is going to be someone we already know. Kishi isnt build up all this suspense for madara to be a completely new character. Everyone will shart when he takes off the mask. But anything is possible i guess.


----------



## BubblePopper (Oct 12, 2011)

My guess is that it is obito.
1)His MS technique is pretty similar to kakashi's MS technique; Dimension manipulation
*Kakashi obtained his Sharingan from Obito*

2)Before he obtained the Rinnegan from Nagato, he only revealed his right eye
*The left eye has been taken by Kakashi*
*Minato thought it for a sec, but then said that it was impossible and it didn't matter either way..*

3)The left side of his body was crushed by a rock and (probably)replaced it with the substance from white zetsu's body
*Minato thought it for a sec, but then said that it was impossible and it didn't matter either way..*
*Minato thought it for a sec, but then said that it was impossible and it didn't matter either way..*

4)And note the similarity in the top right side of their head
Obito:*Minato thought it for a sec, but then said that it was impossible and it didn't matter either way..*
Tobi:*Minato thought it for a sec, but then said that it was impossible and it didn't matter either way..*

Just my personal speculations though


----------



## Trent (Oct 12, 2011)

I'd say Tobi is either a Zetsu-clone of Madara or a Muu-style split created to survive VotE.


----------



## Arya Stark (Oct 12, 2011)

I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be Obito.

Final villain = Yondaime's student. Oooh the drama


----------



## ♥Red♥ (Oct 12, 2011)

He could be anyone


----------



## Hunted by sister (Oct 12, 2011)

Obito has not become any more likely than it was before, that means "it's pretty fucking unlikely". I was wrong about Tobi being Madara, but I am sure Tobi isn't Obito. There is nothing connecting them, besides "I has an Sharingan"

//HbS


----------



## spazztik (Oct 12, 2011)

*Could Tobi's real identity be a 'new' character?*

This is less a theory and more an open ended question.  

There are a lot of theories about which existing character he could be.  Let's look at the facts.

Tobi was an adult (with longer hair?) at the time he faced off against Minato.


Tobi was posing as Madara and controlling the 4th Mizukage.


Tobi had two sharingan (not just one) at the time he faced Konan.


Tobi was able to control the nine-tails fox when he attacked Konoha.


It seems likely to me that Tobi IS an Uchiha.  While we've seen that Sharingan can be transplanted into non-Uchiha, we've never seen any evidence that a non-Uchiha is able to exert control over the Kyuubi.  Additionally, there have always been drawbacks to transplanting the sharingan into non-Uchiha, evidenced by both Kakashi and Danzo needing to keep their sharingan eyes covered when not in use.  We have never seen any character outside of the Uchiha clan replace both of their eyes with sharingan eyes for this reason.  Additionally, noone outside of the Uchiha clan has ever been able to obtain EMS.  For all of these reasons I strongly believe Tobi is an Uchiha.

Obito seems extremely unlikely to me simply because of Tobi's age when he faced off against Minato.  We know Itachi is dead, and we know it's not Sasuke.

What about OTHER Uchiha?  We don't know much about any other Uchiha characters, so I believe we'll be soon learning more about a new character, or a character that's only been briefly mentioned in the past, such as Shisui or Izuna.

You could make a good argument for Izuna, or Shisui, although we know that both of those characters had lost their eyes and would have needed to replace them.  Because we've had limited exposure to these characters and their abilities, that's an open ended question.

There's also the possibility for a completely new character.  Anybody remember the brief mention of Kagami Uchiha?  He was supposedly among 6 being considered for the title of 3rd hokage.  His age would make sense, as would other Uchiha of his generation.


Anyways, this post isn't to convince anyone that a particular person is Tobi, but rather that it's possible and even likely it's someone that we know little to nothing about at this point.  Any thoughts?


----------



## uchiha fred (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is in one or another way Madara! Why else would Tobi he say that Edo rinne tensei was supposed to be for himself? 

*Minato thought it for a sec, but then said that it was impossible and it didn't matter either way..*

And in the latest chapter Madara thinks he is revived by edo rinne tensei.

So their mind is in some way connected I guess?


----------



## Axccel (Oct 12, 2011)

Most likely Izuna. He was said to be around Madara's equal and had the MS eyes. For all we know he could have stolen back his eyes on Madara's corpse somehow. He's the only other Uchiha who'd have full knowledge of the past, Kyubii, and the wily long hair


----------



## Stermor (Oct 12, 2011)

*So madara isn't madara who do you want him to be?*

Personally i would like him to be some test subject of orochimaru... Something along the lines of voldemort.. orochimaru split up his soul in to pieces and actually became/infected several people... 

and that "madara" lied about basically anything.. everything is a orochimaru master plan to become immortal and powerful.. 

hum might be me but i liked orochimaru far more then any other villian in naruto so i hope he comes back, and this seems to be the perfect time for it.. 

So who do you want it to be??


----------



## Golden Witch (Oct 12, 2011)

spazztik said:


> This is less a theory and more an open ended question.
> 
> There are a lot of theories about which existing character he could be.  Let's look at the facts.
> 
> ...



I say it again:
Danzo and Kagami met during a Uchiha Incident.
Kyuubi Incident was blamed on the Uchiha.
Kagami and Danzo were missing though Hiruzen,Torifu,Koharu and Homura were seen fighting against the Kyuubi.

Kagami has likely knowledge as on everything as he lived around Tobirama's Era.

The connection to the Elders and the Massacre fits:
As all of them were in Tobiramas Team.


----------



## Iamacloud (Oct 12, 2011)

Inari from the future who went back in the past to achieve his dreams of world domination.


----------



## Lord Stark (Oct 12, 2011)

No he's definitely Madara.
Madara: Damn that Nagato, he was supposed to be saving Rinne Tensei for me.
Edo Madara: This isn't Rinne Tensei but Edo Tensei??


----------



## ovanz (Oct 12, 2011)

Yeah going with Izuna. To me "Tobi" lied, it wasn't madara the one who keept the eyes, it was Izuna.


----------



## R00t_Decision (Oct 12, 2011)

It still doesn't explain why he said "i am madara" in his first entrance, and why all atasuki recognize him as Madara or someone important.

Who the hell is Obito, some kid who got crushed under a rock, and I do NOT want to read 10 chapter backstory about how Obito became evil up to this point. That alone proves he's probably not.

_Tobi is Obito confirmed_, if it was confirmed it would be confirmed in the manga. Tobi still has a mask, your thread: FAIL


----------



## Talis (Oct 12, 2011)

Well you guys failed already at the Tobi=Madara theory, so stop bashing other theories.


----------



## Wez ★ (Oct 12, 2011)

Still just a Zetsu or Izuna imo.


----------



## JohnnyBlaze (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is one of Zetsu's clones, only so perfect that it has Madara's memories and plans. In addition, the body is so perfect that it can mimic Uchiha blood and chakra to the degree that he can use sharingan as though he we an actual Uchiha. This is also why he doesn't have EMS. Interestingly, Tobi implied that he could still beat Kabuto even with edo Madara and his other summons, so he probably has some way to shut the jutsu down, or at least break it. Or he's just that strong, which I refuse to believe at this stage. Tobi is good, but the way Madara exploded from his coffin tells us he's in the business of rupturing arseholes with his fists.

Btw, anyone notice the similarity between Madara's entrance, and Sasuke's entrance in part 2? i.e. staring down at a bunch of shocked groupies. I'm expecting a similar showing: Madara will probably wreck shop and then disappear, because Itachi is going to go all Heart of Darkness on Kabuto's arse very soon. This is gonna be good! Expect more Itachi praise if Madara and Itachi have themselves a post-mortem clash


----------



## BubblePopper (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi might very well be Obito.
1)Tobi's MS technique is pretty similar to Kakashi's MS technique; Dimension manipulation

2)Before obtaining Nagato's Rinnegan, Tobi has only shown his right eye.
*His left eye has been taken by Kakashi*

3)Tobi's left part body has been crushed by a rock and he (probably) replaced it with the white substance from zetsu.
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

4)And note the similarity between the top half of Tobi and Obito
Tobi:Link removed
Obito:Link removed


That being said, there are still some evidence that still sway my view that Tobi is indeed Obito.
1) In the battle against Konan, he revealed that he has two Sharingans when he used Izanagi
Link removed

*However, I would like to point out that he has only shown the MS ability for his right eye but not the left. Thus, it could still be possible that his left Sharingan was an implanted Sharingan and he has not awoken its MS ability yet*

2) Madara was wearing a mask when he controlled the Kyubi and wreck havoc in Konoha. During that time period, Obito was still a young boy and could not have possibly been able to accomplish that.
*It could also be possible that Obito might be trying to impersonate Madara and wore a similar mask*

These are just my two-cents though. Anything could be possible at this point

EDITMukki sorry dude, had a bit of drink before this


----------



## piccun? (Oct 12, 2011)

R00t_Decision said:


> It still doesn't explain why he said "i am madara" in his first entrance, and why all atasuki recognize him as Madara or someone important.



because it was a part of madara's soul or consciousness that lived on and needs to inhabit living bodies to interact with the world. 
Obito's body is one of those, which explains why madara-tobi has different hairstyles at different point in times, why he's so weak, and why sometimes tobi is a goofy bastard(not all of obito's personality was erased).



it makes perfect sense


----------



## Snowman Sharingan (Oct 12, 2011)

THE TOBITO THEORY IS BACK IN BUSINESS!!

haha omg Kishi must be getting a kick out of this trolling.


----------



## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Obito has not become any more likely than it was before, that means "it's pretty fucking unlikely". I was wrong about Tobi being Madara, but I am sure Tobi isn't Obito. There is nothing connecting them, besides "I has an Sharingan"
> 
> //HbS



chances of Tobito happening just went up significantly



R00t_Decision said:


> It still doesn't explain why he said "i am madara" in his first entrance, and why all atasuki recognize him as Madara or someone important.
> 
> Who the hell is Obito, some kid who got crushed under a rock, and I do NOT want to read 10 chapter backstory about how Obito became evil up to this point. That alone proves he's probably not.
> 
> _Tobi is Obito confirmed_, if it was confirmed it would be confirmed in the manga. Tobi still has a mask, your thread: FAIL



wake up and smell the coffee... its just Obito's body people are referring to


----------



## AoshiKun (Oct 12, 2011)

ovanz said:


> Yeah going with Izuna. To me "Tobi" lied, it wasn't madara the one who keept the eyes, it was Izuna.


Tobi being Madara still makes the most sense.


----------



## WorstUsernameEver (Oct 12, 2011)

Please put this theory to bed,Kishi


----------



## Taijukage (Oct 12, 2011)

*Izuna?*

i know people are freaking out and saying "its obito" and "they are both madara", but i just dont think so. if they were both mads, how come kabuto said "you call yourself madara now"? how come he wears the mask? is he ashamed hes a zetsu clone? more than that, if hes fully a zetsu or some split off clone of edo madara, then why is he shown as an old man in the glimpses we do get? no no. this ma lived when madara did. this man knows about shodai and keeps a clone in his basemet. he collects sharingans. he has a reason to be pissed at the senju. he has a reason to talk as if he barely knows about edo tensei (as tobirama probably made the technique after izuna lost his eyes.) we know izua suposedly died in battle fighting blind. as for why hes been going around calling himself madara, who kows? perhaps the name is more frightening than going aroud saying he is izua. i suppose the only problem wit my theory is that kabuto called him madara in his thougts.  was it a force of habit? who knows? or maybe its both a clone of mads and izuna. whoevers under the mask was definitely around during that final VOTE battle as he had to have taken shodais powers.


----------



## GunX2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Im also going with Izuna.


----------



## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

Kabuto called Tobi Madara.

Either because he calls himself Madara or he is Madara, in his own way.


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## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

if by new character you mean Kagami or Izuna... then yes

i wouldnt say a Zetsu/Madara clone counts as a new character

but they are all possible nonetheless


----------



## Judecious (Oct 12, 2011)

Most likely.  He is the same height/weight as Tobi.


----------



## Kage (Oct 12, 2011)

no thanks. no more. for a clan that should technically have a _sole_ survivor it refuses to completely perish.


----------



## tettays (Oct 12, 2011)

Kagami would be cool....also would leave an opening for Sarutobi Gaiden.

Maybe Madara had a son? Maybe Tobi is a direct descendant of Madara?


----------



## ThiefKing (Oct 12, 2011)

*Tobi = Juubi?*

I was thinking, maybe this is the case. Tobi has been trying to complete himself this whole time, the end goal being the resurrection of Juubi, and him becoming the jinchuuriki of such. But maybe it's just a case of rounding all the other bijuu up and just becoming whole again?
The Madara thing would be the perfect cover, and being a super being I would imgaine would grant him access to all kinds of crazy jutsu like he's already shown. 
Not too much to go off of but I'm thinking it could be a possibility.


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## Dr. Insano (Oct 12, 2011)

No.  He will be someone recognizable without his mask or the reveal would be anticlimatic as shit, no ones going to recognize a human version of "juubi".


----------



## Rama (Oct 12, 2011)

Im glad that theres a big possibility Tobi isn't Madara, Tobi being a Madara clone would be so crap.  I hope is a known character just not a Madara clone please.


----------



## Mukki (Oct 12, 2011)

BubblePopper said:


> Tobi might very well be Obito.
> 1)Tobi's MS technique is pretty similar to Kakashi's MS technique; Dimension manipulation
> 
> 2)Before obtaining Nagato's Rinnegan, Tobi has only shown his left eye.
> ...



Dude, I'm not trying to hate, but seriously, you need to learn the difference between right and left. I think I learned that when I was five years old.


----------



## Blackberry90 (Oct 12, 2011)

Kage said:


> no thanks. no more. for a clan that should technically have a _sole_ survivor it refuses to completely perish.



I agree with this XD


----------



## LordPerucho (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara's twin brother, knowing Kishi.


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Oct 12, 2011)

Egotism said:


> Who the hell is this guy?



Tobi is Madara...

Kishi is going to mind fuck again next chapter...hopefully, I don't want to wait forever for something big like this to happen again.


----------



## Brainsucker (Oct 12, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> No he's definitely Madara.
> Madara: Damn that Nagato, he was supposed to be saving Rinne Tensei for me.
> Edo Madara: This isn't Rinne Tensei but Edo Tensei??



I just curious, why Nagato should save Rinne Tensei to Madara? They have met for some time. Why Madara didn't ask Nagato to use it before?


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## son_michael (Oct 12, 2011)

If its obito he obviously lost control of his body. Either Obito was dead and Madara transferred some of his soul to him, or Madara placed some kind of brainwashing genjutsu on him. 

Another possibility is zetsu simply found obito's sharingan and gave it to Madara who in turn put it on the madara clone he made to bring him back to life in the future....but then again how did Madara die? 


lol w/e the true point of this post is that obito is not doing this of his own free will.


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## Bakusaiga (Oct 12, 2011)

The way Madara reacted to Edo Tensei indicated he had a strong sense of morality.  It's possible that the institution of Konoha turned on him and made him a scapegoat, just as they did to Itachi.  A darker, more omnipotent force seems to be at work here.


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 12, 2011)

I agree with the Soul Split Techinique theory, does makes sense about this whole deal right now. Dividing his consciouness he was dead and alive at the same time


----------



## LordPerucho (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara is Voldemort 2.0.


----------



## The Big G (Oct 12, 2011)

Snowman Sharingan said:


> THE TOBITO THEORY IS BACK IN BUSINESS!!
> 
> haha omg Kishi must be getting a kick out of this trolling.



He has too


----------



## Hexa (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm trucking with the "split soul" theory, or some variant of it.


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 12, 2011)

This chapter really makes people wonder shit up lol 

Chances are Tobi could be Madara's evil side, who was separated by a tech Madara used before dying to somehow survive, and this edo Madara get to be the good one as well


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## son_michael (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm gonna go with Madara is using obito's body theory


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## LordPerucho (Oct 12, 2011)

Makoto Sensei said:


> This chapter really makes people wonder shit up lol
> 
> Chances are Tobi could be Madara's evil side, who was separated by a tech Madara used before dying to somehow survive, and this edo Madara get to be the good one as well



So he is like Majin Buu?


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 12, 2011)

perucho1990 said:


> So he is like Majin Buu?



If he was, it would be one for whom Madara used goo instead of bubblegum. ;l


----------



## vered (Oct 12, 2011)

most likely he is a clone or part of madara that he left behind somehow.
most likely the real Madara stayed alive till nagato was born giving him the Rinnegan before dying for real with the plans of Nagato Resurrecting him at some point.


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## Hasan (Oct 12, 2011)

Hexa said:


> I'm trucking with the "split soul" theory, or some variant of it.



Agreed. If anything Edo Madara did; he confirmed Tobi's comment about Rinnegan which Tobi claimed was his to begin with. _Madara_ gave Nagato the Rinnegan personally. Tobi seems to know stuff only _Madara_ would know. So yeah, some kind of splitting technique is plausible.


----------



## takL (Oct 12, 2011)

either the split half of madara,  kagami, izuna, the elder son of rikudoh or the sprit of 10b 
or all the above in a body.


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## LordPerucho (Oct 12, 2011)

This

What if its Yamato?


----------



## Paranoid Android (Oct 12, 2011)

My first coffin theory was Madara in the coffin. turned out i was right lol.

IDK who it could possibly be behind the mask then... Obito? :3


----------



## Haloman (Oct 12, 2011)

All I can say is that it's about time Kishi revealed that it's Madara in the coffin. He was the only one who made any sense at all.

As for who Tobi is... God knows. People assume all of Tobi's words have been truth, but he's potentially been telling lies all this time. Kisame died knowing the face of Tobi. He also called Tobi "Madara." Tobi told a dying Konan that he was Madara and he stole Senju DNA blah blah blah... So it's really possible that using his dialogue to deduce his identity is impossible.

I honestly don't like the "split soul" theory. The Tobito Theory would be more appealing at this point.


----------



## takL (Oct 12, 2011)

i imagine kisame got genjutsued by the masked one.


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## freetgy (Oct 12, 2011)

It think it is is his brother ( or either Madara himself somehow)

Though i don't he can be alive when he can be rescurrected, which means he did so his soul can be called.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHQAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHZHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH

OH GOD IT'S REALLY TRUE IT'S REALLY HAPPENING


----------



## Marsala (Oct 12, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> All I can say is that it's about time Kishi revealed that it's Madara in the coffin. He was the only one who made any sense at all.
> 
> As for who Tobi is... God knows. People assume all of Tobi's words have been truth, but he's potentially been telling lies all this time. Kisame died knowing the face of Tobi. He also called Tobi "Madara." Tobi told a dying Konan that he was Madara and he stole Senju DNA blah blah blah... So it's really possible that using his dialogue to deduce his identity is impossible.
> 
> I honestly don't like the "split soul" theory. The Tobito Theory would be more appealing at this point.



Since the real Madara knew about Nagato, it seems very likely that he survived the VOTE battle and stole some of Hashirama's body but died later on when Tobi took his identity.

Kishimoto is having us question the identity of his main villain right at thed climax of the story. It has to be the maximally shocking candidate. So it's either Danzou (ultimate irony for Sasuke) or evil future Sasuke (ULTIMATE ultimate irony for Sasuke). Danzou has a bunch of implied connections to Madara, but Sasuke has the critical connection to Naruto.


----------



## MYJC (Oct 12, 2011)

Zetsu clone with both Madara and Hashirama's DNA.

That's why he referred to himself as a Rikudou. Most likely created by the original Madara.


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## Hidd3N_NiN (Oct 12, 2011)

Wow, I knew it. Madara was the 6th coffin. I also don't agree with the split soul theory. Kishimoto has spent so much time trying to conceal the identity of Tobi for him to just be 'Madara' again. I personally believe its someone who's impersonating Madara. 

I have absolutely no idea at this point who it could be but my really wild guess is that maybe its Sasuke's father? Lol, he could have faked his death that night. He discovered the original Madara's plans and tried to continue his work.


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Oct 12, 2011)

Well if Madara fought Muu then he may have copied the body splitting technique, and thus half of him was sealed and they're both Madara....

But that doesn't explain why Madara knows things that should have occurred after he died. Temporal paradox? Or timeline error? Or have our assumptions about the timeline been wrong?

Could Madara have given his EMS to an Uzumaki and in an Uzumaki it evolved into a Rinnegan? Too weird. Something still doesn't fit.


----------



## Team7rox18 (Oct 12, 2011)

Hmm I'm thinking izuna's under the mask. Don't ask me why.


----------



## settings (Oct 12, 2011)

It's Izuna or Madara's "split soul" theory.

I hope that Kishimoto doesn't intend to introduce some kind of new, random villain at this point of the series.

I also find it interesting that Madara knows about Nagato. 

In case "split soul" theory turns out to be the correct answer to this question, chances are that Madara will be the second Uchiha to cancel the Edo Tensei technique, but also the first one capable of reviving himself during that process.


----------



## MYJC (Oct 12, 2011)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> Well if Madara fought Muu then he may have copied the body splitting technique, and thus half of him was sealed and they're both Madara....
> 
> But that doesn't explain why Madara knows things that should have occurred after he died. Temporal paradox? Or timeline error? Or have our assumptions about the timeline been wrong?
> 
> Could Madara have given his EMS to an Uzumaki and in an Uzumaki it evolved into a Rinnegan? Too weird. Something still doesn't fit.



Simple, Madara died much more recently than VotE. As in, sometime after Nagato was born.


----------



## Xero (Oct 12, 2011)

At this point I think it can only be three possibilities:

1) It's just Madara. I always wanted for Tobi to be Madara, and I still believe it's possible through the soul split theory. Basically Tobi would be a "shell of the real deal" that Madara himself created before he died, and Tobi as his creation, and in a sense being Madara, is following Madara (his own) orders. It makes sense that if he's incomplete, he would have wanted Nagato to use Rinne Tensei on himself to "complete" him.

2) It's Izuna. It just makes a lot of sense. No one would know Madara and his feelings better than his own brother. Izuna was also the younger brother, and would thus be able to relate to Sasuke and thereby manipulate him as well as he has done.

3) It's future Sasuke. While not the most popular theory, it makes an awful lot of sense. For example, who would be better at manipulating the darkness in Sasuke's heart, than Sasuke himself? He can also have travelled back in time to get the future he wants, but failed to achieve in the future by either not being strong enough or failing. Not to mention that the time travel possibility could be plausible with Tobi's eyepower.


----------



## Enclave (Oct 12, 2011)

So, where's the apologies for all the flames and negs I've had to endure over standing by Tobi not being Madara?

God this is a good day!


----------



## Volture (Oct 12, 2011)

kristibrud said:


> This basically means Gaara, Onoki, Temari and everyone else there is dead, right?
> 
> I mean. Muu and Madara. There ain't nothin' the alliance can do there.


I still think (hope) Madara will put almost everyone in a state they're unable to fight in. Then when he's about to finish off Naruto, Sasuke steps in and takes care of Edo Madara while saying it's his job to take care of the konoha trash.

A man can dream, right..


----------



## auem (Oct 12, 2011)

tobi has to be someway related to madara...
may be...just may be...it is izanami,mangekyo's final power...which perhaps itachi said as 'awakening a new jutsu' after getting EMS...made madara's survival possible...or it may be the way madara 'split' him to tobi,a new entity with his consciousness.....i strongly believe it has to be something related to EMS..


----------



## Blackberry90 (Oct 12, 2011)

~Alicia~ said:


> Mind-Fuckery.



I totally agree with this  my head is a mess right now 

About Tobi, I think I will go with Izuna or Obito...


----------



## MYJC (Oct 12, 2011)

Xero said:


> At this point I think it can only be three possibilities:
> 
> 1) It's just Madara. I always wanted for Tobi to be Madara, and I still believe it's possible through the soul split theory. Basically Tobi would be a "shell of the real deal" that Madara himself created before he died, and Tobi as his creation, and in a sense being Madara, is following Madara (his own) orders. It makes sense that if he's incomplete, he would have wanted Nagato to use Rinne Tensei on himself to "complete" him.
> 
> ...



It's none of those. Tobi is a Zetsu-clone created by Madara. The clone has Madara's right eye (notice Edo-Madara's right eye isn't shown) and probably some of Hashirama's DNA (which is why he originally had the Rinnegan).

Madara eventually had "Tobi" give the Rinnegan to Nagato because he could use it better (being an Uzumaki clan member with a lot of chakra) and died at some point after that, with the expectation that Nagato would eventually revive him. Obviously that didn't work out, which is why he was surprised that he got Edo'd instead.


----------



## Saturnine (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara = so much cooler than Minato


----------



## Xero (Oct 12, 2011)

MYJC said:


> It's none of those. Tobi is a Zetsu-clone created by Madara. The clone has Madara's right eye (notice Edo-Madara's right eye isn't shown) and probably some of Hashirama's DNA (which is why he originally had the Rinnegan).



I don't know, it would be extremely boring and anti-climatic if Tobi wasn't a known character and instead just a new character or a "Super Zetsu clone". I always liked the idea of Tobi being Madara, and parts (possibly almost all) of his body being made up of Zetsu material to fight off old age and whatnot. But as soon as the 6th Coffin popped up it was all too obvious that it was Madara, why else would Tobi shit bricks. Hence why the soul split theory was implemented afterwards and still makes sense.


----------



## Kyu (Oct 12, 2011)

Gotta admit Madara looked *very* intimidating.


----------



## Zen-aku (Oct 12, 2011)

Before the First killed him Madara used the Muu's Splitting Technique leaving tobi behind

that's my theory any way


----------



## Tyrannos (Oct 12, 2011)

There is definitely something going on with Madara's Right eye and it being implanted. 

To me, here is are my list of possibilities:

1)  Ridoukou's Eldest Son:   We honestly never understood the origins of the rivalry between the Eldest Son and the Younger Son of Ridoukou.   And the power of the Eldest was the power of the eyes.   So what if he learned or created the secret of immorality?   And his life-long mission was to crush all the decendants of his brother?

2)  One of Sasuke's Parents?:     I know people are going WTF at me saying that, but what if?

Because if you think about it, isn't it strange Itachi's Parents disappeared the night of Naruto's birth and Kushina conveniently ran into Mikoto?    And wouldn't be one heck of a mind-F that in Sasuke's quest of revenge, that he was played by his own parents? 

This would really give a reason for why Itachi is trying so hard to protect Sasuke, from knowing the real truth.


Obito?   I use to say this is a possibility given the coinsidense of the right eye.   But yet Obit's left arm was intact while Madara's left arm is......not solid.    Then also concider the difference in height when Minato fought him, Obito would've been shorter.  Madara was the size of an adult.    So I can't say Obito is Madara anymore, even if part of me still like to see that happen.


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## Abanikochan (Oct 12, 2011)

You all are on the wrong track. Isn't the answer obvious? So a dark little shadow ball with a Sharingan eye wanted to leave its container so it received blood from Uchiha Madara and sacrificed a bunch of people to gain a body and immortality. It took on Madara's appearance, powers, and mannerisms. But it wanted to also become a physcial god so it manipulated a bunch of people and sacrificed some more people. It makes perfect sense! I mean its never been attempted by any other mangaka. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




Problem?


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## Xero (Oct 12, 2011)

The problem with Tobi being Uchiha Fugaku, is that he was going to show his face to Sasuke. Unless Itachi is lying about having killed his father, and having been tricked like a pony by his own father, I doubt it's a possibility.


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## Yozora (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara is dead.

Tobi is Tobi.


:ho


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## gershwin (Oct 12, 2011)

Tyrannos said:


> 2)  One of Sasuke's Parents?


The part of the Tobi`s face we have seen obviously wasnt Fugaku`s


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## riyuhou (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara said 2 very interesting things when he appeared : 

first : 
"So it finally happened"
=> This show that he was waiting for his resurection.

*Second : 
"It would appear that little brat Nagato managed to grow"
=> This show that he was thinking that Nagato would be the way for his resurection.*

If we had to this 2 statements Tobi saying when Nagato used rinne tensei : 
"He was supposed to use it for me"
And saying about Nagato's rinnegan : 
"they were mine to begin with".

There is only one conclusion : 
Before dying, Madara had a plan for Nagato to revive him using Rinne Tensei.

Now the big question : 
how Madara can be dead and alive at the same time !!!

I think before fighting/Dying against Hashirama, he did something like Ban in Dai no Daiboken.

He "split" himself in 2.
In Dai no daiboken it's : 
 - one part => Young Body
 - other part => Mind and magic (with an old body)

Here it seems more complex since we know it, Edo tensei bring back souls...so Madara's souls was "dead" (in the pure world").

I think Madara manage to "failsafe" himself sliptting his own soul in 2.

*I can wait for Tobi to fusion with his Edo Body !!!*


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## Kotetsu11 (Oct 12, 2011)

I really don't think that tobi is obito, why would he pick up revenge on the leaf anyways ? He was all there with best of his intentions to save his friends....as much as naruto would become a baddie? Doesn't make sense.

there are so many possibilities but he is not obito.
Either he's just a shadow of himself, not his body like he said anyways
,just another character hidden from us or yeah, Madara's brother could have met nagato impersonating  as Madara from then.

I do like Shadow_Fox's theory.


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## Rama (Oct 12, 2011)

I really cant tell who he is just yet, but ill go with Izuna just for now


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## Penance (Oct 12, 2011)

> Now the big question :
> how Madara can be dead and alive at the same time !!!


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## riyuhou (Oct 12, 2011)

Or Even more simple : 
Madara use Muu's splitting technique before dying against Hashirama.

We know that Madara already fought against Onoki, and I don't believe young Onoki would have survive alone against Uchiwa Madara.

You see where I'm going, Onoki and his master fought Madara, Muu's used his splitting technique...Madara's Sharigan did it's work => copy.

never it was said Muu's splitting technique was Kekkai I think...


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## Zeit (Oct 12, 2011)

Great entrance for a great character. Shame we'll never see Itachi vs Madara, that would be an amazing fight.


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## Tyler (Oct 12, 2011)

Does it fucking matter?! Making a big deal out of nothing.....






































Kidding lol. I think it's Tayuya. If not her, then it needs to be Obito. Just because I secretly want him to be alive in some way.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Oct 12, 2011)

I can't wait to see him use the MS, it'll finally settle it once and for all if it's a random power generator or if Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, and Susanoo are it's core abilities. 



Klue said:


> No one has ever looked so fucking badass:



Onoki did say that Madara was so powerful that he could do whatever he wanted and there wasn't anything the 5 great nations could do to stop him.


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## MizMan (Oct 12, 2011)

*Tobi IS Madara*

He is Madara most likely. No-one else falls in the category of Tobi. Insanely strong, Uchiha, knows Madara Uchiha most and has knowledge of shinobi world from back then. Obito? Shouldn't he be like Kakashi's age and not a old 80 year old guy?

Muu's splitting technique is something to consider for. Muu was in the era when Madara was going wild and i would say that either Madara copied Muu's technique or Muu copied Madara's technique. Most likely Madara copied Muu's technique since he has a sharingan.

Another thing to consider is Muu spoke to him as he personally knew Madara and so i think that they had fought at some point. That's when Madara might have copied Muu's technique to split.

Used it as a last resort to escape from Hashirama but he was damaged so badly that the other half died while he still remained and aged. It'd also explain the Rinne Tensei mystery which Tobi wanted to be used for him. Meaning his other half, perhaps to fuse and become complete.

There is no way in hell would he be able to completely fool Itachi, all the Byakugan users. He is Madara.



Only one conflict in my theory is that Kabuto says: 'So you're going by the name Madara these days.' He spoke as if Tobi isn't Madara and that he is just going by the name.


What do you think? Comment, criticize and let the shitstorm begin.


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## Doge (Oct 12, 2011)

Probably something to do with zetsu.

Obviously Tobi does not have the soul since Madara was rezzed.


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## AlphaReaver (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobito LIVES !!! All we need now is to see Tobi's face!


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## tgm2x (Oct 12, 2011)

Zetsu clone with personality made by Madara himself or Izuna probably


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## Sage (Oct 12, 2011)

Well my instant assumption after the coffin revelation was that the masked guy (Tobi) is Madara's son. Wouldn't be all too surprised to find out that Madara's son being just as powerful as him and capable of taming the Kyuubi, and even Kyuubi thought this was Madara himself since every time he tamed him Kyuubi never got to see his face like everyone else, and having similar DNA with his father Kyuubi probably didn't analyze too much and assumed this was the same person and Tobi probably had similar jutsu like his father so people didn't really challenge the assumption.

I assumed Madara had explained his ultimate goal in life to his son but died and Tobi inherits his 'will'. 

idk, I am also leaning towards the idea about them both being two halves of Madara's soul and being one and the same as mentioned by someone else on another Madara thread.


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## Boradis (Oct 12, 2011)

I haven't been much involved in the "Tobi Identity Wars," but in my heart I have always thought those who maintained he was someone other than Madara were just smokin' teh crack.

I'd like to publicly apologize for thinking that and congratulate you all for picking up on hints I didn't. The issue is still far from settled of course, but whatever the answer is it's clear it won't be a simple one.

I'm now joining the "TObito" theorists -- something I thought I'd never do. 

Damn you, Kishimoto!



Kage said:


> what kind of fraud would go through all this trouble? it should be someone who has already been introduced to make any kind of sense...



Agreement!!!


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## Shanan (Oct 12, 2011)

*BOOM I GOT IT RIGHT HERE NO FUNNY OR SARCASTIC POST*
----------------------------------------------------------------
Tobi is *MADARA'S BROTHER*. My evidence?
1. Still looks old
2. Resembles Madara
3. Had one eye (visible) until recently that he got from Shisui or someone else
4. Got all emotional when he explained to Sasuke how "madara's brother willingly gave his eyes"
5. Has reasons to impersonate Madara and do what he is doing

The story?
-Either BRO (don't know his name, calling him BRO) wanted revenge against Madara and the Uchiha clan for forcing him to give his eyes or he loved his brother so much that when he died he hated the Uchiha for allying with the Senjin and wanted revenge for his brother.

*BOOM I called it*
But seriously, I'm being silly, but I think this is a worthwhile theory. Correct me where I'm wrong if I am.


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## Boradis (Oct 12, 2011)

Shanan said:


> *BOOM I GOT IT RIGHT HERE NO FUNNY OR SARCASTIC POST*
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Tobi is *MADARA'S BROTHER*.



Looks like a solid theory to me. 

Based on that, I propose calling him "Brobito" for the time being.


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## withering blossoms (Oct 12, 2011)

My theory of the SC being Konan with Madara's left eye is now incorrect.

My new theory is that... well, first of all, Madara looks older to me than he did in the glimpses we were given of VOTE. Maybe it's just me, or the Edo Tensei, or the hair. Or the way Kishi drew him.

But my theory is that Madara lived past VOTE, and befriended a man named Zetsu, and lived to see Nagato get the Rinnegan at least. Then, in some illegal experiments alongside Orochimaru he and Zetsu accidentally spilt their souls and bodies in half. Execpt for Zetsu the two halves... sort of.. stayed together. For Madara the other half became Tobi. They worked together, before Tobi killed him and took his eyes. 

My other theory is that the last two chapters are just a genjutsu Naruto's under. Seriously, I would have preferred any other person than Madara in the SC. Even the Rikudo. *rages*

*wonders what will happen if Edo!Madara meets Sasuke the Izuna-lookalike*


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## Boradis (Oct 12, 2011)

Klue said:


> He wore similar clothes - minus the armor - when he met Itachi. And it wouldn't make sense for him to die at VOTE if he knows Nagato.
> 
> He said: "That kid Nagato must have grown." Thinking he was revived with Rinne Tensei, he could only have made that statement if he met Nagato.



Excellent point. Although it could be that Madara is just so badass that unlike the rest of the Edos he retains any knowledge he gained in the afterlife.

I don't really think that, but at this point who the fuck knows anything any more? Sasuke could be a hero, Naruto a villain, Hinata's a guy, Kakashi's really Obito, Killer B can rap, Jiraiya's still alive, Lee's a secret master of ninjutsu, Rikkudo Sennin nearly destroyed the world before being trapped in the Moon by the Jubi ... I'll believe anything now.


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## .access timeco. (Oct 12, 2011)

Ok, I know this may sound incredibly stupid and I didn't go back to reread the manga again to know if it is possible, since this idea only hit me.

Some people are saying Tobi can still be Madara and he split his soul. Well, my idea also works on the basis of someone spliting his soul.

I am talking about...
...
...


Yup. Tobirama.

I am not saying that he is Tobi (maybe), but I suddenly started to think he may be closely related to Madara and Tobi. I mean, the fact he created the Edo Tensei surely is something weird about him.

Don't know, I didn't started to think about it yet, how exactly Tobirama would be involved in this and, if he is Tobi, how he managed to get Sharingan, but I'll start to work on it...


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## Skywalker (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm going with the idea that either Tobi is someone else entirely, or they are two halves of the same person, like a Piccolo/Kami thing.


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## Saru (Oct 12, 2011)

So, Kishi went with Madara... ? 



I'm more willing to be believe his soul is in someone else's [Kagami's] body. 
The age old jutsu Shiki Fuijin could have some capabilities other than sealing, couldn't it? 

If that's not the case, it's definitely Izuna.



*Spoiler*: __ 



And I had started changing my mind about Tobi not being Madara.


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## kx11 (Oct 12, 2011)

damn you kishi damn you for playing us all those chapters


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## cmdrdredd (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm going with "just tobi". After Madara died he left knowing who nagato was and telling him to revive him at some point in the future to continue their work. That never happened because Tobi manupulated everyone through trickery (nagato thought Tobi was madara so he would never resurrect him).

What I think will happen.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Madara will beat everyone down hard before Kabuto is totally owned by Itachi and then Madara is no more. Then Itachi finds out that Tobi is not really Madara, and eventually Sasuke finds out too. I can see it now...Sasuke kills Tobi after learning of his trickery.


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## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

Shanan said:


> *BOOM I called it*



i called it too!!! high five!!! woohoo!!!

being serious, alot of people called it too... which is kind of our fault for drowning these forums with 6th coffin = Madara theories that have slowly convinced everyone

agree that Tobi = Izuna theory is very possible now, it has a higher chance of happening than my Tobi = Kagami theory but thats ok... im in a good mood 

as long as Tobi turns out to be someone/anyone OTHER than Madara and the soul-splitting theory is finally put to rest... "I told you so" wont do us justice


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## Akakage (Oct 12, 2011)

Here's my theory. 

Tobi =  Fugaku Uchiha. Makes the story circle compete. Naruto faces Sasuke, then Sasuke faces Fugaku and defeats him alone bringing Sasuke's redemption. It's a paper thin theory, but brings the whole story of father's molding their sons to a complete finish.


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## Kimimaro-kun (Oct 12, 2011)

It's Izuna! Tobi has to be Izuna. Please, make it happen, Kishi, and I might spare your life for -presumably- screwing up my JuuKimi reunion  I hate you, biatch


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is still Madara. Now I will warn, this will be a bit of a read but  only comment if you read through all of it. For all purposes of this post  however, The Masked Man will be referred to as Tobi, and Edo  Tensai Madara will be referred to as Madara. Also just a side note,  please excuse any grammatical errors that you may see.

My first point I'd like to bring up, which many others have pointed out as well. From last chapter we see Muu is able to split himself into two halves. They have been shown to act completely independently, as when one half comments "Be careful, I'm...". Kabuto later explains  that the technique isn't "cloning", but in fact, splitting the main  body, including his powers and performance. We can also conclude that if  one were to "split" from himself, they can rejoin with their other half  and gain back those abilities and powers, if attainable. That's the  reason as to why Muu was trying to release the seal, so he could rejoin  with his other half and regain his power that he once had.

Next, we have Tobi explaining to Sasuke, as he says "I died there...Or so they assume."  Normally when reading this line, some may think that he just faked his  death. However Tobi saying "I died there" can also mean another thing.  If he had used Muu's splitting technique to make two halves of himself,  then he would have died there, just as he said, but he would have still  lived on. This was later proven false however, because Madara himself lived on from this battle. This however does not mean that he did not use this technique at some other point in his life.

Here  Tobi says "My wounds from my battle with the First Hokage, Hashirama,  were to deep...Right now I am powerless." Looking at just this  statement, you may wonder what are these wounds and how do they effect  him. Now here  we can see that Tobi has successfully replaced his arm that was lost  against Torune, which can explain how he "healed" from his wounds  against the First Hokage. Muu was able to survive because he is a Edo Tensei, which means he can regenerate any wound he sustains; while Tobi  had no automatic way to regenerate from his wounds. So using this  Zetsu goo would be the best way how to explain how he fixed his previous injuries.

Now going onto his later statement in that previous page, he continues  to say "I am nothing more than a shell of my formal self." If Muu's  splitting technique is accurate and does split your power half and half,  then that would mean that he is like a shell of his former self.

Madara originally thought Nagato revived him, and thought "So it finally happened" as seen here. Back in Chapter 453,  Tobi say's to Zetsu "No...I can't believe Nagato used Rinne Tensei like  that. It was supposed to be for me." Now, why would Tobi need it to be  used for himself? He was very well alive? Added with the fact that  Madara expected to be revived by Nagato, we can conclude that their  goals were the same; That they wanted that dead Madara back to life.

After this fact that Nagato "betrayed" Tobi, he decided to go ahead with his Moon's Eye Plan instead. Here  he says "To have everything become one with me! I mean to achieve a  "complete form", in which all is united." Now later he goes on to talk  about the Jubi, and how it is nine separate beasts. However, in which _all _is  united can't only mean the Jubi can it? By becoming one with  everything, he plans on becoming whole with himself again as well.

We should all know that their appearance is at least shared. Here Tobi first introduces himself to Kisame as Madara, and Kisame doesn't believe him. It forces Tobi to step out of the shadows and reveal his face to Kisame. As seen later, Kisame now believes he is Madara Uchiha and is actually listening to him. Now here when Tobi takes off his mask we see that Kisame acknowledges Tobi as the same person who confronted in the mist, further validating that he must at least look like Madara.

However later on,  Kabuto confronts Tobi, and shows him six of his coffins, one of which  has Madara in it. Tobi call's Kabuto "A bastard", and asks "Where he got  it". Going back to the splitting, if we assume the half has to be  alive, they have to be truly alive. If they are revived by Edo Tensei  then they are just sealed souls inside a dust body, not exactly 'alive'.  Kabuto afterwords tells Madara he "Won't tell anyone of it", however  does it really threaten Tobi's plans if they know he's not Madara? No,  it just ruins his hype. He's still this monster that has caused the entire plot up until now.

Later on, Tobi demands to know everything about Edo Tensei, _including how to cancel it_. He originally justified it as "Today's ally is tomorrows enemy",  however looking at it in hindsight, he now has the ability to cancel  this jutsu, so his other half may become dead (and actually revivable)  once again. 

Another connection the two seem to share is their goals. Edo Madara first asks Kabuto "Do you know our plan as well?" Also what seems to further prove this is that they both want to use the jutsu "Infinite Tsukuyomi", as shown here and here. 

Further more, if Tobi is really a "clone", a fake, then even the more reason as to why he would claim to be "no one". If he truly has the same mind, face, and goals, then what would separate him from the real Madara now that he has shown to the world? That's right, his mask. To keep his own identity as himself he needed to keep that mask, to allow himself to still be separate from Madara while being Madara himself. However this doesn't stop him for when he finds it convenient to show his true face. (Towards Kisame on numerous occasions and almost towards Sasuke)

The Nine Tails also seems to recognize Tobi's chakra. Obviously the last time the Nine Tails was controlled prior to Kushina and Minato was during the battle between Hashirama and Madara, as shown here. Then here we can see that the Nine Tails recognizes Tobi's chakra. Now if someone were to control the Nine Tail's before hand, it would have to be before Mito became the Jinchuriki, as the nine tails was handed off to Kushina afterwords. So the only answer that can come to mind is that Tobi and Madara share the same chakra, thus they are the same person.

Finally, as to why Edo Madara can use the Enternal Mangekyo Sharingan and the Rinnegan. Obviously Madara acquired his eyes shortly before his death, as shown when he says this. He also must have had to live long enough for Nagato to be alive for a couple of years. With this stated, he could probably feel that he was going to die soon, however his power had reached it's pinocle, he acquired the Rinnegan. He didn't want to just end there, so what does he do? He then decided he should split himself into two; however if he were to do that then all his power would be split in half as well, so what does he do? Give his Rinnegan to Nagato. It's unclear how you can transfer the Rinnegan, however it's obviously not a eye transplant, so probably via jutsu or some other means. Afterwords Madara splits himself into two, using the same jutsu Muu  used; due to not wanting his goals to be lost in the dust once he died. This would also explain as to how Tobi  "gave Nagato the Rinnegan", because he is a clone of Madara. The two splitting also references as to why he can't use the Mangekyou Sharingan. Their power is split in half, so Tobi, the half that remains, can not use the Mangekyou Sharingan. While Edo Madara can use the Mangekyou Sharingan and the Rinnegan because he has been modified by Kabuto.


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## ceralux (Oct 12, 2011)

BubblePopper said:


> My guess is that it is obito.
> 1)His MS technique is pretty similar to kakashi's MS technique; Dimension manipulation
> *Kakashi obtained his Sharingan from Obito*
> 
> ...



You're so dumb. Did you not see how young Kakashi and Gai were when Minato faced off against Tobi? Tobi was in a full grown body. It's not obito's body you retard. It could possibly be his sharingan thats about it. Cut it out and think for a minute.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> Words



Three points cast doubt on this.

1. Does Edo Madara look like he's at half power to you?

2. Nagato said Rinne Tensei had a time limit. We don't exactly know when Edo Madara died, but it's pretty clear that he's been dead a while, much too long to revive him with Rinne Tensei. So Tobi's comment about "saving Rinne Tensei for me" wouldn't make sense to be directed at Madara because it simply would not work.

3. I really don't think Kishi would spend an entire chapter introducing "The Real Madara" and cast doubt on Tobi's identity only to have Tobi turn out to be Madara as well.


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## Shukumei (Oct 12, 2011)

If Madara "split," Edo Madara and Tobi!Madara could each have one of Madara's original Sharingan. The Madara who is now summoned died shortly thereafter, fooling Hashirama. Tobi, however, now had a single EMS eye, and as such is unable to activate his Mangekyou. This would explain his stockpiling of Sharingans in order to replace his left eye, though once Nagato died he retrieved the Rinnegan and implanted one to substitute for the eye he lost using Izanagi during his fight with Konan. Tobi's right eye seems important to him, as his space-time jutsu centers around it; if he kept one of his EMS after splitting and then had to implant a normal Sharingan without Mangekyou as his left eye, it could explain things.

... However, I'm not sure about the splitting theory, as the "wrinkles" around Tobi's right eye (which don't seem to exist on the other side of his face) could instead be markings of implanted flesh, i.e. the eyeball and flesh around it, which would explain Tobi having the same eyelids as Madara.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Edo Madara should have both his eyes regardless of the status of his real eyes, just like how Itachi had both of his even though they've since been transplanted into Sasuke.


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> Three points cast doubt on this.
> 
> 1. Does Edo Madara look like he's at half power to you?
> 
> ...



1. He exploded the top of a coffin casket. Granted the "explosion" was fairly wide, it doesn't mean that Tobi isn't capable of something like that. So until I see more from him I can't be to certain.

2. When did Nagato say this? I don't recall it. I just remember him not being able to revive everyone which was dead because he didn't have much chakra left. If you do find where he said it had a time limit then please give me a link, however I do believe it was fans that believed it had a time limit, nothing more.

3. But that's the thing, he's really leading us to doubt that Tobi is actually Madara. I personally think showing the "real" Madara and then showing another Madara would be more shocking then just revealing that Tobi isn't Madara, at least in my opinion.


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## Phantom Roxas (Oct 12, 2011)

I really hope Izuna is Tobi. This plot twist seriously reminds me of Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, as there was a similar plot twist, only it was not handled well. Izuna is the only person I will accept as Tobi, and I hope he has a good reason for pretending to be Madara. I've really liked Tobi as a villain so far, and I don't want him to suddenly reek of a terrible plot twist.


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## Fan o Flight (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> Tobi is still Madara. Now I will warn, this will be a bit of a read but  only comment if you read through all of it. For all purposes of this post  however, The Masked Man will be referred to as Tobi, and Edo  Tensai Madara will be referred to as Madara. Also just a side note,  please excuse any grammatical errors that you may see.
> 
> My first point I'd like to bring up, which many others have pointed out as well. From last chapter we see Muu is able to split himself into two halves. They have been shown to act completely independently, as when one half comments "Be careful, I'm...". Kabuto later explains  that the technique isn't "cloning", but in fact, splitting the main  body, including his powers and performance. We can also conclude that if  one were to "split" from himself, they can rejoin with their other half  and gain back those abilities and powers, if attainable. That's the  reason as to why Muu was trying to release the seal, so he could rejoin  with his other half and regain his power that he once had.
> 
> ...



I think I have to go with this for now


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## Neoreobeem (Oct 12, 2011)

I can't think of a way to make sense of this. Could it be Madara was split from his good and evil sides? Is Tobi some sort of demon created from hate and the Sharingan? This is going to be confusing.


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## Gamahiro (Oct 12, 2011)

Izuna Uchiha.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> 1. He exploded the top of a coffin casket. Granted the "explosion" was fairly wide, it doesn't mean that Tobi isn't capable of something like that. So until I see more from him I can't be to certain.



Okay, think of it this way, for Madara to be Kabuto's trump card, he's got to be even more powerful than the Kages that came before him, right?

If just half of him is that powerful then why would Tobi, the other half, imply that he was a shell of his former self?



> 2. When did Nagato say this? I don't recall it. I just remember him not being able to revive everyone which was dead because he didn't have much chakra left. If you do find where he said it had a time limit then please give me a link, however I do believe it was fans that believed it had a time limit, nothing more.



Kabuto later explains



> 3. But that's the thing, he's really leading us to doubt that Tobi is actually Madara. I personally think showing the "real" Madara and then showing another Madara would be more shocking then just revealing that Tobi isn't Madara, at least in my opinion.



I can't understand how one would think making us doubt an outcome only to confirm it would be remotely surprising.


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## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> Tobi is still Madara... etc



sorry for copy-pasting my own post from another thread, but its how i feel


the soul-splitting theory can work, sure... but whats the point? it would anti-climactic beyond belief if Tobi is ALSO Madara but with a so-called "twist"

Kishi said it himself... "All will be revealed when the mask is removed"

there is NOTHING revealing if Tobi is just a Zetsu/Madara replica, because its still Madara.... there is NOTHING revealing if "part of Madara's soul" is residing in Obito's corpse, because its still Madara.... see my point?

the only way Tobi's identity becomes "revealing" is if he isnt Madara at all

i would also like to point out that soul-splitting has never happened in this manga... not even once... so how can you rely on it to prove your point?


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## Iamacloud (Oct 12, 2011)

Izuna: Quite a few problems with him.

How did he live so long while losing his eyes? Tobi claimed to have survived thanks to his powerful chakra, and it's quite possible Izuna would also have had powerful chakra. But the way an Uchiha's power is tied to their sharingan, I find it hard to believe Izuna could have lived that long without eyes.

And if he did have eyes, they were most likely Madara's. The Madara that died at the VotE was using his brother's eyes, but what if he somehow latched onto his old eyes as a way to hang on to life. Would explain why Shodai was fooled into thinking Madara died.

Since Tobi seems to be made mostly of Zetsu goo that could act as a support for his old eyes, his plan to become complete again through a body would make sense.

So it's quite possible that Tobi is Madara's old eyes living on zetsu goo support, wanting to be reunited with a real body. So when he was "killed", he hang on to live through his eyes, and when Izuna died and was burried, Madara made a deal with the land itself (Zetsu) to begin his quest for revenge.

Then again maybe not. Obito would be so fucking hillarious that I wouldn't even mind so much... Or Inari's dad, just to really fuck with his readers.


----------



## Mattaki Hitokage (Oct 12, 2011)

Mind=BLOWN!


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is probably entirely composed of Zetsu goo, I don't think age is a factor since he's pretty clearly not using his original body at this point. Or at least there's very little left of it.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 12, 2011)

1. Because he's still powerful, just not as powerful as he use to be. Also not sure if I stated this in my previous post, but he isn't exactly suffering from the wounds the Hashirama dealt to him like Tobi is. Tobi lived on and had to find another means as to how to survive. However revived Madara only needs to regenerate his wounds, as he's a Edo Tensai. Tobi having to replace parts of his body with Zetsu goo may hinder his power, but allows him to survive, who knows.

2. I always thought he meant before he ran out of chakra. I mean, expending that much chakra throughout that entire day must take a lot of himself. That's how I've read it atleast

3. Ehh, that's up to a readers opinion then I guess.

@Jacamo: I never said that his soul was split. I was referring to Muu's splitting technique.



First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi is probably entirely composed of  Zetsu goo, I don't think age is a factor since he's pretty clearly not  using his original body at this point. Or at least there's very little  left of it.



I actually agree in saying that, more than likely, Tobi's body is mostly Zetsu goo.


----------



## PlacidSanity (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> 1. Because he's still powerful, just not as powerful as he use to be. Also not sure if I stated this in my previous post, but he isn't exactly suffering from the wounds the Hashirama dealt to him like Tobi is. Tobi lived on and had to find another means as to how to survive. However revived Madara only needs to regenerate his wounds, as he's a Edo Tensai. Tobi having to replace parts of his body with Zetsu goo may hinder his power, but allows him to survive, who knows.
> 
> 2. I always thought he meant before he ran out of chakra. I mean, expending that much chakra throughout that entire day must take a lot of himself. That's how I've read it atleast
> 
> ...



Very interesting.  

Quick question, but has anyone brought up Orochimaru's immortality technique been brought up?  Madara might have used something similar to it.


----------



## Nashima (Oct 12, 2011)

One step closer to tobito. I cant believe this chapter proves that tobi is not madara and people still dont want to believe it O_o.


----------



## NeonRoses (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is Mikoto :ho


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## Penance (Oct 12, 2011)

Nashima said:


> One step closer to tobito. I cant believe this chapter proves that tobi is not madara and people still dont want to believe it O_o.



They're completely delusional...


----------



## KBL (Oct 12, 2011)

Good chapter man


----------



## Summers (Oct 12, 2011)

We have almost 10 pages of threads right now, wow. Also folks always say they want other characters to shine, but when we do they never promote as much discussion as the Top-tiers.

I wonder how Madara made that shockwave? not enough room to swing his fan, wasn't a Katon, taijutsu?


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

summers said:


> I wonder how Madara made that shockwave? not enough room to swing his fan, wasn't a Katon, taijutsu?



He used his foot.


----------



## streets27 (Oct 12, 2011)

*Kishi hint?*

So many theories by far the most controversial chapter to come out thus far.

OK madara = former shell of himself
Muu split himself into two...

Is it at all possible that Madara split himself into two when getting defeated by the first Hokage?

Madara splits himself into two one half dies the other badly damaged Zetsu rebuilds with Zetsu parts thus Madara becomes Tobi...

But the reason why the first wasnt suspicious is because they found the dead body of Madara the first half he split thus no investigation. Having buried the body only higher ups of Konaha know the whereabouts of Oro discovers this place when in the leaf Kabuto learns of this from knowledge left by Oro Kabuto then finds everything he need to be able to summon Madara.

As a twist Madara died while splitting his body and because of this is brought back by Edo complete and at full power.

thoughts?


----------



## Gameboy (Oct 12, 2011)

thats a gud thry


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## Klue (Oct 12, 2011)

Nashima said:


> One step closer to tobito. I cant believe this chapter proves that tobi is not madara and people still dont want to believe it O_o.



At best, it proves that Tobi isn't the real Madara. He could still be Madara. The guy has a clone of Hashirama, countless clones of Zetsu, whom was also made from Hashirama and he himself possess Hashirama's DNA within his own body.

It's possible.


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## Kimimaro-kun (Oct 12, 2011)

NeonRoses said:


> Tobi is Mikoto :ho




Hottest FV ever :ho


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## lizardo221 (Oct 12, 2011)

Im betting a lot that tobi is madaras younger brother. Imagine fooling everyone and keeping the horrible secret that the younger killed the older. Wait...sasuke....killed...so then! That right folks, kishi likes to show how history repeats.


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## Kimimaro-kun (Oct 12, 2011)

lizardo221 said:


> Im betting a lot that tobi is madaras younger brother. Imagine fooling everyone and keeping the horrible secret that the younger killed the older. Wait...sasuke....killed...so then! That right folks, kishi likes to show how history repeats.




I'm liking this theory very, very much


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## Frostman (Oct 12, 2011)

Im willing to believe anything at this point...


Anything except Tobi is Obito.


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## Semplice (Oct 12, 2011)

After reading the chapter, I was like "OHOHOHO TOBI=OBITO WILL START AGAIN"...

...And I was right.  xDD


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## MYJC (Oct 12, 2011)

Neoreobeem said:


> I can't think of a way to make sense of this. Could it be Madara was split from his good and evil sides? Is Tobi some sort of demon created from hate and the Sharingan? This is going to be confusing.



Nah.

Most likely Tobi is a Zetsu clone with both Madara's DNA (and probably his right eye) and Hashirama's DNA. That's why he was one of the Rikudos. Madara himself likely created Tobi at some point after VotE.

Tobi originally had the Rinnegan (because he had Madara and Hashirama's DNA) but eventually gave those eyes to a young Uzumaki clan descendant (Nagato) because he had a lot of chakra and could use it more effectively. The original Madara eventually does die (relatively recently, sometime after Nagato was born) with the expectation that he would be revived by Nagato after he'd mastered the Rinnegan. In the meantime, until he's revived his clone Tobi is in charge.


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is


*Spoiler*: __ 





You know it to be true 8/


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Oct 12, 2011)

like someone said last week this is why kishi made MUU summon Real madara


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## jacamo (Oct 12, 2011)

lizardo221 said:


> Im betting a lot that tobi is madaras younger brother. Imagine fooling everyone and keeping the horrible secret that the younger killed the older. Wait...sasuke....killed...so then! That right folks, kishi likes to show how history repeats.



hahaha..... nice catch

didnt Madara fight Shodai with EMS??? but then again, our only version of that story is told by Tobi  Itachi could have been misled by history  

so shit could still happen, i think we all get that... Izuna could have taken someone else's sharingan... imagine the shitstorm if Edo Madara goes all out but can only use the MS, which means he never had the EMS  Izuna did


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## Philip.J.Fry (Oct 12, 2011)

I had a similar idea, but I think he died recently, when nagato was a kid. 

I think he cloned himself, so there might be two real madara's, might explain the change in the mask as well.

If you read, the real madara (well at this point) knows of nagato, so he couldn't have died against hashirama


----------



## Monzaemon (Oct 12, 2011)

Has this point been brought up and addressed yet?



> Note that Kabuto continued referring to Tobi as "Madara" even after revealing the 6th coffin to him.


----------



## Ezekial (Oct 12, 2011)

Madara was alieve up untill Nagato's birth, theory is invalid


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Oct 12, 2011)

Monzaemon said:


> Has this point been brought up and addressed yet?



He also said, "You go by 'Madara' these days."


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Monzaemon said:


> Has this point been brought up and addressed yet?



What do you mean "brought up and addressed"?

Prior to this chapter that phrase was one of the main reasons people were doubting Tobi was Madara.


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## Monzaemon (Oct 12, 2011)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> He also said, "You go by 'Madara' these days."



Well, that changes everything. I didn't know about that (not having read Naruto in a long time).

Can you give me a link?



First Tsurugi said:


> What do you mean "brought up and addressed"?
> 
> Prior to this chapter that phrase was one of the main reasons people were doubting Tobi was Madara.



That makes no sense. Why?

edit: You're probably referring to the line brought up by Pretty Good Satan, not the one I was talking about.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Oct 12, 2011)

ceralux said:


> You're so dumb. Did you not see how young Kakashi and Gai were when Minato faced off against Tobi? Tobi was in a full grown body. It's not obito's body you retard. It could possibly be his sharingan thats about it. Cut it out and think for a minute.



To be fair, they don't look too different physically...


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Monzaemon said:


> edit: You're probably referring to the line brought up by Pretty Good Satan, not the one I was talking about.



Oh, yeah. My bad.

Well like Kabuto himself said, that's what he goes by.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Oct 12, 2011)

Monzaemon said:


> Can you give me a link?



Sure.

It's when the 6th coffin is introduced.


----------



## Frostman (Oct 12, 2011)

I think Tobi is a Senju Uchiha hybrid. He was shown to be compatible with the Zetsu what he healed his arm. Madara was probably planning to revive himself in Tobi's body somehow once it was complete with the Juubi inside. Perhaps he needed to die in order to complete Tobi. 

Also Orochimaru might have been working directly under Madara. He has been dealing with both Senju and Uchiha, as well as necromancy and body switch jutsu.


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## Nathan Copeland (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi Is Kagami  Nathan Was right all along


----------



## Syferz (Oct 12, 2011)

Pay attention to the dates on all these posts... these are logical reasons to assume he is any of them... I like the idea that he is Sasuke's father... which I high light below in this post.

Shisui: 
Obito: 

08-11-2010: 
So who is Tobi?
First it's important to set up Zetsu and Tobi's connection.
if black Zetsu is older then white Zetsu, we can see that Zetsu would have an original partner, Uchiha Madara could of known Zetsu before VotE, or shortly after VotE while dying, and these 2 possiblities happened from then out.

1. Tobi is Uchiha Madara, though with a nearly destoryed body, all of his parts are Zetsu's and it seems he is missing his original EMS, which is why he collects Sharingans, This also means that Zetsu has a 3rd part (the original partner) on the other side of Tobi's Mask, They would act as one, with Madara in control, perhaps by force.

2. Tobi is a clone of Uchiha Madara, made before VotE, the clone, is the original Zetsu partner, he could not maintain the EMS and thus we have him collecting Sharingans to keep his power, it's possible that becoming Uchiha Madara also made Zetsu lose sight of himself and feel that he is entitled to everything Uchiha Madara had.

The third possibility is that he is Izuna, kept alive by Zetsu, he believes everything that was Uchiha Madara's belongs to him now, including the Kyuubi, he would need to use Sharingans until their light runs out, because he never gained EMS, and his MS abilities means that he has to replace his eyes.

*And finally, just because it is possible, Sasuke's Father is Uchiha Madara's son, and has taken up revenge for his father, and for the pride of the Uchiha. The only thing that really points to this is that during the Kyuubi attack, Itachi's parents were no where to be found, that and Itachi's father had some secret that only Itachi and He shared.*

The last one is the least possible, but hey it would make Tobi more interesting, so would Izuna IMO, the 1st possiblity reminds me too much of Sasori, and the 2nd wouldn't make sense with the evil curse... I am actually hoping it is number 3, and Kabuto has Uchiha Madara in his 6th coffin, so we can see how he fought, but it's highly likely that he is Infact Uchiha Madara, and it is the 1st choice, leaving Kabuto with Minato as his 6th coffin, which would certainly scare off Uchiha Madara, especially with Akatsuki Zombies backing Minato up.

*Today:* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I hope it's Sasuke's father, Itachi knew and lied to Sasuke to save him from ever finding out, remember Itachi planted a "program" into Sasuke's eyes to protect him from ever seeing Tobi's face.

Also, I proved that Kabuto had Uchiha Madara inside a coffin in my first link there.


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## Raiden (Oct 12, 2011)

I do think that it's part Madara, possibly part someone else that's under the mask.

Madara "prime's" knowledge of Nagato probably has something to do with Izanagi, where he has learned himself how to transcend the limitations of life and death. In other words, he knows what the "Tobi" Madara has been up to...in a way similar to how shadow clone knowledge works. 

It looks like he was somehow able to preserve his brain, as that would appear to be the only thing of worth in Tobi. We know the body is made from Zetsu goo, and his power lies in his eyes.


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## Ezekial (Oct 12, 2011)

Tobi is the un sealed half of Madara, he used the splitting tech and Tobi was planning on reviving his other half using rinne tensei. TOBI IS MADARA


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Ezekial said:


> Tobi is the un sealed half of Madara, he used the splitting tech and Tobi was planning on reviving his other half using rinne tensei. TOBI IS MADARA



And when did he split?

VotE?

Then how does Edo Madara know about Nagato?


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## Raiden (Oct 12, 2011)

I think there's a part of it that has yet to be explained. Personally, even though Madara respectably commented on Edo Tensei, I do feel as if he is the master of his own existence-Hence why he is the final villain. Somehow, when "Tobi" fades out of existence, perhaps the sealed version of Madara acquires all information he knows. Spirits down't die per say (nor do individuals like Madara find rest) in the Naruto world, so I suppose we can assume relaying information is possible.


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> And when did he split?
> 
> VotE?
> 
> Then how does Edo Madara know about Nagato?



Honestly if that is Edo-Madara and Tobi isn't Madara. then he basically died against Hashirama. So regardless it's impossible for him to know Nagato anyways, so either I'm guessing plot hole, or as someone has mentioned, his EMS had granted him the ability to see into the future, and he saw Nagato or something, and expected the day for him to revive him. (Which can even go for my theory, as then that would have given the other half of Madara reason to go "give" Nagato the rinnegan to make himself complete again)

Also for those of you saying we're in denial, I'm really not, I just can't see Tobi as anyone else besides Madara.


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## Enclave (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> Honestly if that is Edo-Madara and Tobi isn't Madara. then he basically died against Hashirama. So regardless it's impossible for him to know Nagato anyways, so either I'm guessing plot hole, or as someone has mentioned, his EMS had granted him the ability to see into the future, and he saw Nagato or something, and expected the day for him to revive him. (Which can even go for my theory, as then that would have given the other half of Madara reason to go "give" Nagato the rinnegan to make himself complete again)
> 
> Also for those of you saying we're in denial, I'm really not, I just can't see Tobi as anyone else besides Madara.



Obito is old enough for it all to make sense


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Kishi wouldn't have had him mention Nagato if he didn't know exactly how he was going to connect the two characters. There's no chance of it being a plot hole.


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2011)

But the timelines don't match up at all. 

Jiraiya was only 53 or something when he died correct? He was like what, 30 when he decided to train the Ame Orphans. If Madara would be 97 or something right now if he were still alive then I don't think he would be alive at 77 when Nagato was a kid, or should I say he certainty doesn't show it if that's how he looked when he died.


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## Syferz (Oct 12, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> Kishi wouldn't have had him mention Nagato if he didn't know exactly how he was going to connect the two characters. There's no chance of it being a plot hole.



Though, this does not support Tobi sharing info with Madara beyond the grave, because Madara would of realized exactly who resurrected him right away. It's possible that Tobi asked Nagato to resurrect Madara, and actually that does make sense with what Tobi said when he learned that Nagato resurrected everyone in Konoha. (Tobi said that he was suppose to use that jutsu for him)

Tobi is either Frankenstien (which is actually really lame) or he is NOT Uchiha Madara.




Jessicα said:


> But the timelines don't match up at all.
> 
> Jiraiya was only 53 or something when he died correct? He was like what, 30 when he decided to train the Ame Orphans. If Madara would be 97 or something right now if he were still alive then I don't think he would be alive at 77 when Nagato was a kid, or should I say he certainty doesn't show it if that's how he looked when he died.



Actually Jiraiya trained the orphans in his teens before he trained Minato... Nagato himself was about as old as Minato, so in his 40's when he died...


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> But the timelines don't match up at all.
> 
> Jiraiya was only 53 or something when he died correct? He was like what, 30 when he decided to train the Ame Orphans. If Madara would be 97 or something right now if he were still alive then I don't think he would be alive at 77 when Nagato was a kid, or should I say he certainty doesn't show it if that's how he looked when he died.



I wouldn't trust the timeline in this manga to be quite honest.


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## m1cojakle (Oct 12, 2011)

Ok gais, listen.  GAIS LISTEN.  MAYBE...maybe the mask.  GAIS...listen.  maybe the guy isn't wearing the GAIS LISTEN.  maybe the guy isn't wearing the mask....maybe the mask is WEARING THE GUY!!!


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> I wouldn't trust the timeline in this manga to be quite honest.



That what I was talking about, it doesn't match up. So wouldn't this be considered a plot hole? (Or a timeline hole or something...)


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> That what I was talking about, it doesn't match up. So wouldn't this be considered a plot hole? (Or a timeline hole or something...)



Well we'll have to see what explanation Kishi gives us before we can say. vOv


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## Syferz (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> That what I was talking about, it doesn't match up. So wouldn't this be considered a plot hole? (Or a timeline hole or something...)



Your time is wrong, he trained the orphans before orochimaru leaves konoha when minato became hokage, Jiraiya trained Minato when he returned from his travels, so this happened before that even, you are looking at Jiraiya in his late teens early 20s. Minato and Nagato were around the same age (Nagato being older possibly ~40).


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## HighLevelPlayer (Oct 12, 2011)

Somehow part of Madara.


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## Raiden (Oct 12, 2011)

Now I'm thinking.

>There was no explanation from the whimsical aspect of Tobi's character.
>That persona may actually be authentic.


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## Marsala (Oct 12, 2011)

Evil Future Sasuke or Danzou, whichever you consider more impossible and ridiculous.


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## Olivia (Oct 12, 2011)

Syferz said:


> Your time is wrong, he trained the orphans before orochimaru leaves konoha when minato became hokage, Jiraiya trained Minato when he returned from his travels, so this happened before that even, you are looking at Jiraiya in his late teens early 20s. Minato and Nagato were around the same age (Nagato being older possibly ~40).



Regardless, Madara doesn't look like he's in his late Fifties/Early Sixties if we go by your timeline.


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## Lord Killer Bee (Oct 12, 2011)

wow 19th page on the first day xD


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## Syferz (Oct 12, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> Regardless, Madara doesn't look like he's in his late Fifties/Early Sixties if we go by your timeline.



I don't think Madara met Nagato during his life, see my prior post or read the quote from it below.

"Though, this does not support Tobi sharing info with Madara beyond the grave, because Madara would of realized exactly who resurrected him right away. It's possible that Tobi asked Nagato to resurrect Madara, and actually that does make sense with what Tobi said when he learned that Nagato resurrected everyone in Konoha. (Tobi said that he was suppose to use that jutsu for him)

Tobi is either Frankenstien (which is actually really lame) or he is NOT Uchiha Madara."

Basically Nagato might have tried to resurrect Madara for Tobi, but it was only partial or temperary, so when Madara is resurrected again, he thinks Nagato perfected the resurrection... Also would push for Izuna being Tobi (Madara's brother) but I still want it to be Sasuke's father, who could be Madara's son/grandson


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## Crona (Oct 12, 2011)

They are both Madara that are split apart.

Believe it. We have 2 Madaras


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## Syferz (Oct 12, 2011)

Violet Haze said:


> They are both Madara that are split apart.
> 
> Believe it. We have 2 Madaras



we already have 2 Orochimarus... though 1 is sealed, if Kabuto resurrects him, that would give us 3... wait I got it, he is MechaMadara!


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## mellomuse (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm not even going to guess what the answer to all this is, but it seems logical that it has something to do with the process of giving Nagato the Rinnegan.  Something must have happened back then with Madara's soul or chakra. Whether it was deliberate or accidental, or whether or not another person was involved, I'm not sure.  I just don't see Madara's Nagato comment as being random... the fact that Madara remembers Nagato as a brat pretty much narrows down the time period during which he "died" (or had his soul sealed or something).


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## Bonds (Oct 13, 2011)

*It's obvious who Tobi is...*

I rarely post anymore, as I find the manga much easier to enjoy when you're not having argument after argument with the excruciatingly large number of tards running rampart across these boards. I still stop by occasionally but ya know, whatever.

Anyway, just going to get to the point. What do we know about Madara, Tobi, and Nagato? The connection to me is very clear. Madara seems to know about Nagato, who's eyes Tobi claimed belong to him. So...isn't it plausible that Madara gave his eyes to Nagato, causing the mutation we all theorized on when an EMS ends up in the body of a Senju (Rinnegan)?

If this much we can agree on, and we still take Tobi's words to heart that they were HIS eyes first, but Tobi can no longer be Madara (unless you believe these crazy split soul theories, which I personally think are ludicrous), then there's only one logical person Tobi can be. And that, of course, is Uchiha Izuna. Madara took his eyes... they were *originally *Izunas, not Madara's nor Nagatos. 

Who else could it be? Who else could have originally had those eyes if not Madara or Izuna? Rikudou Sennin? I seriously doubt it's him running around in that mask. The original Uchiha? Possible, but I doubt it. Obito? He's got as good a chance as any I suppose, but why would he have become so twisted? And then Tobi's statement about them being his eyes becomes a bit farfetched. 

For me, I'm fairly confident Tobi is Izuna. If you disagree, feel free to say why. I'm open for debate.


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## Marsala (Oct 13, 2011)

There's no point to Tobi being Izuna. It has to be someone shocking and plot relevant, preferably of importance to Naruto, Sasuke, or both.

Also, Tobi has been pretending to be Madara, even to the point of saying that he gave Rinnegan to Nagato when it was the real Madara who did so.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

This is actually a very plausible possibility IMO, it would make perfect sense and the deceptive nature of the statement would be clever yet logical.

However, while this works particularly well for Izuna, I think it can work for anyone impersonating Madara. Tobi is claiming the eyes were Madara's to begin with, and because he is posing as Madara they are then his.


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## On and On (Oct 13, 2011)

TOBI. IS. SOMEONE. ELSE

Jesus christ.

He is not Madara's spirit, or anything of the sort. Otherwise Kabuto wouldn't've given him shit for masquerading as someone he's not the first time they interacted together.'

And kudos to the people who have KNOWN THIS ENTIRE TIME Tobi couldn't be Madara Uchiha  We deserve pats on the back


----------



## On and On (Oct 13, 2011)

Marsala said:


> There's no point to Tobi being Izuna. It has to be someone shocking and plot relevant, preferably of importance to Naruto, Sasuke, or both.
> 
> Also, Tobi has been pretending to be Madara, even to the point of saying that he gave Rinnegan to Nagato when it was the real Madara who did so.



This. Izuna has absolutely no relevance to the plot whatsoever, other than "that guy that died a long time ago who was the brother of some uber boss". Plus Izuna died earlier than Madara anyway - and had his eyes taken out  iirc Madara was shown with his EMS - meaning Izuna would've be blind and DEAD. Idk. Izuna just doesn't work here.

I mean sure, it fits in terms of circumstance (minus the whole y'know, being a sacrifice and dying type deal) but I don't see it happening here.

Perhaps Tobi is some split fragment of Madara's physical body a la Voldemort. He's always talking about becoming "whole" again. I certainly hope that's not the case


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

Eh, whoever Tobi is he's still going to be the one who attacked the village 16 years ago and made Naruto and Sasuke's lives miserable.

Regardless of who he turns out to be, he'll still have plenty tying him to the two main characters.


----------



## Morgan (Oct 13, 2011)

I doubt it's Izuna. He just doesn't fit. I'm inclined to believe that both are Madara.


----------



## Penance (Oct 13, 2011)

On and On said:


> TOBI. IS. SOMEONE. ELSE
> 
> Jesus christ.
> 
> ...



...........


----------



## Klue (Oct 13, 2011)

On and On said:


> TOBI. IS. SOMEONE. ELSE
> 
> Jesus christ.
> 
> ...



Then turn around and call him Madara within the confines of his own mind. Mind boggling, isn't it? 

Link


----------



## KillerFlow (Oct 13, 2011)

Muu's splitting tech is a kekkei tota though, so it's really hard to believe the Sharingan could copy that. Unless the EMS could..


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## Phantom Roxas (Oct 13, 2011)

As a Tobizuna supporter, I agree with this. However, this whole revelation reminds me of Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, where the Big Bad turned out to be some random nameless guy with from the future who built a disguise that made him look like the hero and then went back in time to present a bad future from happening. I would rather have it be Izuna, because he knows a lot more about Madara than someone else would. The "split soul" theory seems possible considering Muu's technique, but I doubt that that's the case.


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## On and On (Oct 13, 2011)

Klue said:


> Then turn around and call him Madara within the confines of his own mind. Mind boggling, isn't it?
> 
> Link



Kabuto's just going a little crazy, that's all 

But srsly, the way Kabuto talked to him in their reunion was far more significant then him calling him Madara there


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

Klue said:


> Then turn around and call him Madara within the confines of his own mind. Mind boggling, isn't it?
> 
> Link



What else would he call him?

Just because Kabuto knows Tobi's not Madara doesn't mean he knows who he really is.


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## On and On (Oct 13, 2011)

It's Kagami Uchiha, Danzo's former partner 



inb4itrlyistho


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## Chibason (Oct 13, 2011)

Yeah Bonds, it seems to make sense now that he is likely Izuna... I remember back to when Tobi talked about his brother dying and clenched his arm...

Kishi is all about brother stories so yeah....It's prolly Izuna


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## ashher (Oct 13, 2011)

Its a good arguement...one i used a long time ago in another forum.


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## Mikaveli (Oct 13, 2011)

ashher said:


> Its a good arguement...one i used a long time ago in another forum.



How could you if we just found out today that Tobi is most likely not Madara?


----------



## vered (Oct 13, 2011)

yea thats a strong possibility assuming the one behind the mask isnt madara in some way or shape.


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## PoinT_BlanK (Oct 13, 2011)

Izuna is a possibility..
Kagami? Maybe..

Nonetheless, if it's one of them..it'll be somewhat under whelming considering who tobi was built up to be..to end up being some random uchiha impersonating Madara would be "Meh"..at this point I'd take fugaku or ramen guy as tobi..smh..

We need a thread..with most of the panels where tobi is interacting/shows himself to other characters so we can assert a time line and analyze the reactions and statements made by the people reacting to him..


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> We need a thread..with most of the panels where tobi is interacting/shows himself to other characters so we can assert a time line and analyze the reactions and statements made by the people reacting to him..



What do you mean by that exactly?

Perhaps I can contribute.


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## 3rdgenkage (Oct 13, 2011)

Super Goob said:


> How could you if we just found out today that Tobi is most likely not Madara?



because not all of us were duped by Tobi. A lot of people like me thought that he wasn't Madara the whole time. I also went back and forth whether I thought he was Izuna or Itachi's friend (can't think of his name). I never actually thought he was Madara especially when Kabuto showed his Koffin and gave way too many hints like "you call yourself Madara these days now" or "Madara Uchia you are in a class of your own," while Tobi says "wise guy."


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## ashher (Oct 13, 2011)

Super Goob said:


> How could you if we just found out today that Tobi is most likely not Madara?



well i never totally bought that tobi is madara,

always called him tobi. izuna was always a likely candidate.

still madara clone...madara chakra driven zetsu...these seem plausible too.may be even more plausible than izuna at this point.

edit: the eye giving part could be explained if tobi is madara's zetsu bodies clone too, anyways i'll remove that part from my last post. its not like i'm claiming any ownership over any theory.


----------



## mellomuse (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, it seems that _Madara_ thinks he is Madara.  I don't think he is just pretending.

After Kabuto displays the sixth coffin to Madara, Madara seems pretty freaked out:
Madara: "How did you do this?? You madman!"

After Madara agrees to let Kabuto tag along:
Kabuto: "Uchiha Madara... you truly are in your own league."
Madara: "Wise guy."


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## Olivia (Oct 13, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> What else would he call him?
> 
> Just because Kabuto knows Tobi's not Madara doesn't mean he knows who he really is.



Wait, so then how does Kabuto factor into this whole argument at all? All he knows is that Madara's not Madara (to his current knowledge). He could still very well be another Madara without Kabuto knowing, as you've said, Kabuto doesn't know who he really is.


----------



## Haloman (Oct 13, 2011)

Marsala said:


> There's no point to Tobi being Izuna. It has to be someone shocking and plot relevant, preferably of importance to Naruto, Sasuke, or both.
> 
> Also, Tobi has been pretending to be Madara, even to the point of saying that he gave Rinnegan to Nagato when it was the real Madara who did so.



This is not true. Do you guys remember the "reveal" of Tobi being Madara? Tobi was introduced around chapter 280 or something. Less than a hundred chapters later and a maybe 4 appearances in the manga, Tobi says a cryptic thing about awakening "the Sharingan's power, his power, Uchiha Madara's power". Most everyone (me excluded) shat bricks and were like "OMG! UCHIHA MADARA!" By that point in the manga, Madara's name had been mentioned exactly twice. Once if you don't count Tobi saying it.

Izuna's name has been mentioned many more times than that, and you're saying he's not relevant? That's a double standard if I ever heard one.

Anyway, in reference to the OP's theory, it's actually a plausible one, but unfortunately, it's possible for nearly anyone. Imagine if Madara had a pupil (which he almost certainly did), and he told him he would give him his eyes upon his death. Then when the time came, Madara changed his mind and gave them to Nagato. Feeling cheated, the pupil might certainly think of them as eyes that are rightfully "his."

To be honest, though, my theory is that Tobi isn't even an Uchiha. He's clearly stolen Senju DNA and pilfered a ton of Sharingans (Uchiha DNA). There's absolutely no reason why he has to be an Uchiha.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

Jessicα said:


> Wait, so then how does Kabuto factor into this whole argument at all? All he knows is that Madara's not Madara (to his current knowledge). He could still very well be another Madara without Kabuto knowing, as you've said, Kabuto doesn't know who he really is.



Why would Kabuto think Tobi could still be Madara when he is able to summon the original?

If it wasn't for the splitting jutsu Muu used no one would even be considering the possibility that Tobi was somehow still Madara.


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## Nic (Oct 13, 2011)

It's a possibility although renders their characters more human instead of villainous to me.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> Izuna's name has been mentioned many more times than that, and you're saying he's not relevant? That's a double standard if I ever heard one.



Izuna has never been mentioned by name even once in the manga, if I recall correctly.

The only reason we even know his name is because of the databook.


----------



## Brigade (Oct 13, 2011)

On and On said:


> This. *Izuna has absolutely no relevance to the plot whatsoever, other than "that guy that died a long time ago who was the brother of some uber boss". Plus Izuna died earlier than Madara anyway - and had his eyes taken out*  iirc Madara was shown with his EMS - meaning Izuna would've be blind and DEAD. Idk. Izuna just doesn't work here.
> 
> I mean sure, it fits in terms of circumstance (minus the whole y'know, being a sacrifice and dying type deal) but I don't see it happening here.
> 
> Perhaps Tobi is some split fragment of Madara's physical body a la Voldemort. He's always talking about becoming "whole" again. I certainly hope that's not the case



Izuna allegedly "died" (in quotations cuz: mufuckin ninjas) on the battlefield *AFTER* his eyes were taken out. So he could have easily substituted another corpse (again mufuckin ninjas) for his own and took his eyes back after the "real" Madara died, and did all the shit that led up to todays chapter (which still leaves my mind full of fuck)


----------



## Marsala (Oct 13, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> This is not true. Do you guys remember the "reveal" of Tobi being Madara? Tobi was introduced around chapter 280 or something. Less than a hundred chapters later and a maybe 4 appearances in the manga, Tobi says a cryptic thing about awakening "the Sharingan's power, his power, Uchiha Madara's power". Most everyone (me excluded) shat bricks and were like "OMG! UCHIHA MADARA!" By that point in the manga, Madara's name had been mentioned exactly twice. Once if you don't count Tobi saying it.
> 
> Izuna's name has been mentioned many more times than that, and you're saying he's not relevant? That's a double standard if I ever heard one.



Madara was introduced muuuuuuuch earlier in the manga, and many of us instantly guessed that he was also the 3rd MS user AND the statue opposite Shodai Hokage at the VOTE. But now we're in the endgame. The main villain won't be some D-list character whose name never appeared outside of the databooks.


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## Saru (Oct 13, 2011)

On and On said:


> This. Izuna has absolutely no relevance to the plot whatsoever, other than "that guy that died a long time ago who was the brother of some uber boss". Plus Izuna died earlier than Madara anyway - and had his eyes taken out  iirc Madara was shown with his EMS - meaning Izuna would've be blind and DEAD. Idk. Izuna just doesn't work here.
> 
> I mean sure, it fits in terms of circumstance (minus the whole y'know, being a sacrifice and dying type deal) but I don't see it happening here.
> 
> Perhaps Tobi is some split fragment of Madara's physical body a la Voldemort. He's always talking about becoming "whole" again. I certainly hope that's not the case



It *is* Kagami, tho. 

The Voldemort/Soul splitting theory just sounds really out there (but still possible), now that I've thought about it. It could still be Kagami, I guess.

Actually, the theory I'm liking the most is the Elder Son. Makes sense historically, contextually, symbolically... And it would make the story epic.  

Izuna is probably the most plausible possibility, because he could slip into the role of Tobi so easily. We wouldn't even need to catch up on his history, really, just a few tweaks to Tobi's initial story.


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## Olivia (Oct 13, 2011)

Exactly my point, that's why we shouldn't use some of Kabuto's statements as facts. 

Sorry if some of the things I say aren't making much sense, haven't gotten sleep in days, but bleh.


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## Synn (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi is Kagami.


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## SENTINEL (Oct 13, 2011)

*Obito = Tobi*

Has to be     . 


What yall think?


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## Palpatine (Oct 13, 2011)

This is the first time in a very long time Naruto has vastly overshadowed the other two HST for me. And that's from the last couple pages. 

I'm willing to bet we will get Tobi's identity sooner than later now. Since it's inevitable that he'll find out about Madara being on the field. Either that or he'll run into him.

After that happens, there's not much of a point in him hiding his identity anymore.


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## Gino (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi is Naruto


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## Tir (Oct 13, 2011)

Before speculating, let's see what Tobi has said and knew. 

Tobi stated that he was the one who gave Rinnegan to Nagato. Remember what Madara said? It seems that little brat Nagato has grown. Both know Nagato and do remember that Madara, if he really dead, he shouldn't have known anything about Nagato as he 'dead' after fighting Hashirama. The day he 'dead' forget about Nagato, Jiraiya hasn't even born yet.


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## PoinT_BlanK (Oct 13, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> What do you mean by that exactly?
> 
> Perhaps I can contribute.



A thread entirely dedicated to Tobi. The OP would have all manga panels/pages of every time him or any other character made a statement that could somehow relate to his identity..all the panels/pages of him revealing his face to other characters and the reaction and statements made regarding his face/identity.

Going all the way back to his "tobi's a good boy" introduction and flashbacks etc etc..


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## Haloman (Oct 13, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Madara was introduced muuuuuuuch earlier in the manga, and many of us instantly guessed that he was also the 3rd MS user AND the statue opposite Shodai Hokage at the VOTE. But now we're in the endgame. The main villain won't be some D-list character whose name never appeared outside of the databooks.



What're you talking about? Madara was first mentioned in chapter 309. That's over halfway through the manga. Here, let's have a little history.

First time Sasuke comments on VotE. This is where we learned the name of the VotE:


First time that those statues are even noted to have been actual people instead of just cool statues:


And finally, first time Uchiha Madara is even mentioned by name:


So, all that speculation you're talking about? Yeah, all of that happened based on hardly anything. Tobi's first appearance was in chapter 280. Madara was announced as a character in 309. Finally, Tobi says his cryptic statement in 364. And this is only the second time that Madara has had his name mentioned in the manga:



And this was enough to cement his status as final villain? Izuna has had more screen time than this. To dismiss the possibility of him being behind Tobi's mask because he's not "plot relevant" is absurd. Because at this point in time, Izuna is more plot relevant than Madara was when Tobi announced himself as Madara.

Also, Madara didn't show up until Databook 3. And I'm not saying it's not someone who was in the databooks. Honestly, like I said, *there's no reason to assume that Tobi is even an Uchiha.*


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## Alenius (Oct 13, 2011)

Don't rate your own threads, mate.


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## Marsala (Oct 13, 2011)

That's the most ridiculous theory ever.

Tobi is obviously time-traveling Sasuke.


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## auem (Oct 13, 2011)

another unnecessary thread...


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## Undead (Oct 13, 2011)

What an original thread. 10/10 Would read again.


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## 3rdgenkage (Oct 13, 2011)

makes more sense then Madara having two souls


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## Coldhands (Oct 13, 2011)

Lolno. Tobi is Madara.


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## withering blossoms (Oct 13, 2011)

Boradis said:


> Excellent point. Although it could be that Madara is just so badass that unlike the rest of the Edos he retains any knowledge he gained in the afterlife.
> 
> I don't really think that, but at this point who the fuck knows anything any more? Sasuke could be a hero, Naruto a villain, Hinata's a guy, Kakashi's really Obito, Killer B can rap, Jiraiya's still alive, *Lee's a secret master of ninjutsu*, Rikkudo Sennin nearly destroyed the world before being trapped in the Moon by the Jubi ... I'll believe anything now.



Lee _is_ a secret master of ninjutsu.

He did the walk-on-water jutsu, remember?


*Spoiler*: __


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## vikramx (Oct 13, 2011)

Obito is unlikely because during the flashback, when the kyuubi attacked konoha and Yondaime was fighting tobi, kakashi was still a kid and last I checked Obito was around the same age as Kakashi unless he somehow transformed into a fully grown adult.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Oct 13, 2011)

vikramx said:


> Obito is unlikely because during the flashback, when the kyuubi attacked konoha and Yondaime was fighting tobi, kakashi was still a kid and last I checked Obito was around the same age as Kakashi unless he somehow transformed into a fully grown adult.



Nah, Kakashi looked like a teenager, about 15 or so.  Obito during Kakashi's Gaiden was taller than Kakashi.


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## Marsala (Oct 13, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> And this was enough to cement his status as final villain? Izuna has had more screen time than this. To dismiss the possibility of him being behind Tobi's mask because he's not "plot relevant" is absurd. Because at this point in time, Izuna is more plot relevant than Madara was when Tobi announced himself as Madara.



But Madara was established as main villain (in name at least) midway through the manga! Now we're 7/8ths or more through the manga. There's no time to establish some relatively unimportant character as Tobi's secret identity. Tobi is someone important and shocking. Someone whom even Aoba would recognize.



> Also, Madara didn't show up until Databook 3. And I'm not saying it's not someone who was in the databooks. Honestly, like I said, *there's no reason to assume that Tobi is even an Uchiha.*



Sure, Tobi might not be an Uchiha. I consider Danzou to be a strong frontrunner.


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## GunX2 (Oct 13, 2011)

I cant believe how many people take this theory seriously.


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## vikramx (Oct 13, 2011)

Taller maybe, but not much. My point is, no matter how you look at it, Obito does not fit the profile of the "Tobi" that fought Yondaime and controlled the Kyuubi. And I seriously doubt obito would be hanging around Kakashi, Rin and Yondaime if he were that powerful <.<


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

These threads are going to be a regular thing again, eh?


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## Scizor (Oct 13, 2011)

I REALLY wonder who Tobi actually is..

My best bet is that it is someone that hasn't yet been introduced: someone who also survived the Uchiha massacre, obviously.

But I don't know, really.


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## kataramenos (Oct 13, 2011)

Well i can definately say I read many interesting opinions here and the one I liked most is the one about madara spliting himself into two(the one dying and planed to be ressurected and the other living as tobi) but who knows what's true???we can never guess...
PSan't wait for next manga to come


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## GunX2 (Oct 13, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> These threads are going to be a regular thing again, eh?



Yup,intil tobi removes the mask.


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## Brian (Oct 13, 2011)

Izuna is my best bet, in the history of the Uchiha Clan only Madara Uchiha was the only one able to summon the Kyuubi, but if anyone else had this ability like what we saw in Kushina's flashback Izuna would be fitting. He is said to be equal to his brother in strength and both had exceptionally strong chakra. 

And as for the lack of fame, no one will ever be able to match up to the name Madara Uchiha. If Tobi is Izuna, Kagami, Shisui, etc, it's like what Minato said it doesn't matter who the man behind the mask is, but rather what's Tobis reasoning for all this.


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## Sparky1012 (Oct 13, 2011)

I think Tobi = Madara's little bro claiming to be Madara.


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## arc (Oct 13, 2011)

tobi is short for tobirama, the second hokage.


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## Taijukage (Oct 13, 2011)

No Madara split his soul ala voldemort


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## Brian (Oct 13, 2011)

Madara also split his brain

Explains a lot about Tobi


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## Dolohov27 (Oct 13, 2011)

Nah Tobi most likely is Kagami ,shit fits perfectly yo.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 13, 2011)

Gedo: Rinne Tensei no Jutsu can only revive those who are recently killed


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## Kiss (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi is Sasuke from the past. There you have it.


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## Kiss (Oct 13, 2011)

Good argument.


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## Reddan (Oct 13, 2011)

Looking more and more likely now. However, I don't think he is purely Obito. Madara probably took over his body and used Zetsu to rebuild it. So we have this hybrid now known as Obito, with Madara in control.


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## Enzo (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm also with the Tobi=Kagami Theory.


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## Talis (Oct 13, 2011)

Why not adding some theories in it lol maybe ill do it soon.


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## Tengu (Oct 13, 2011)

I still think Tobi is Madara, why would he say this, if he wasn't?



Also how would the edo Madara know about Nagato?


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## urodentis (Oct 13, 2011)

*Tobi is Shisui*

Shisui's been mentioned so many times now and there's so many clues Tobi is Shisui. Shisui's corpse is just a Zetsu clone so no fodder found out he's still alive. Shisui never feared Itachi, he tolerated Itachi and kept his word because he still thought Itachi as his friend. Why else do you think Tobi is so obsessed with Danzo's possession of Shisui's eye?


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## Edward Newgate (Oct 13, 2011)

Right, and the Kyuubi recognized Shisui as Madara, and Shisui also knew of Madara's business with kid Nagato.

And obviously young Shisui was also fighting Minato.


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## Rabbit and Rose (Oct 13, 2011)

GunX2 said:


> I cant believe how many people take this theory seriously.



I take it in an absolute serious way.


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## Tengu (Oct 13, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Right, and the Kyuubi recognized Shisui as Madara, and Shisui also knew of Madara's business with kid Nagato.
> 
> And obviously young Shisui was also fighting Minato.



/thread  .


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Oct 13, 2011)

so... after shisui died & gave itachi his eye shisui helped itachi kill his clan? then a few years later shisui tryed to kill danzo so he could get his eye back?


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## Kenzo (Oct 13, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Right, and the Kyuubi recognized Shisui as Madara, and Shisui also knew of Madara's business with kid Nagato.
> 
> And obviously young Shisui was also fighting Minato.



And Shisui wanted Shisui's eyes.


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## (510)THIZZ (Oct 13, 2011)

urodentis said:


> Shisui's been mentioned so many times now and there's so many clues Tobi is Shisui. Shisui's corpse is just a Zetsu clone so no fodder found out he's still alive. Shisui never feared Itachi, he tolerated Itachi and kept his word because he still thought Itachi as his friend. Why else do you think Tobi is so obsessed with Danzo's possession of Shisui's eye?


I think you may be right. He has been foreshadowed waaaay too many times all throughout the manga. You should know what happens by now when they keep bringing up peoples names. He was mentioned in part 1 at damn near the beginning of the manga. Zetsu showed up at the valley of the end and was like the 3rd member of akatsuki we seen. It would make sense that 

1. He knows so much about itachi   
2. His teleportation jutsu (shisui the teleporter)
3. Nobody found his body or truly knows what happened to him.
4. He's interested in sauske
5. As "madara" He seemed like he knew danzou Which didn't make any sense
6. He was around the same age as the 4th and their teleportation jutsu's rivaled each others.
7. He knew about orochimaru helping out danzou with hashiramas cells.
8. He wanted to rid the world of fighting and his way might be the moons eye plan. 

But it could also be madara's little brother who somehow lived on and is avenging his big brother by taking on his name. He was close to madara in power also.


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## Rabbit and Rose (Oct 13, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Right, and the Kyuubi recognized Shisui as Madara, and Shisui also knew of Madara's business with kid Nagato.
> 
> And obviously young Shisui was also fighting Minato.



The Izuna theory is picking up some logic with me now.


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## Edward Newgate (Oct 13, 2011)

(510)THIZZ said:


> I think you may be right. He has been foreshadowed waaaay too many times all throught the manga. You should know what happens by now when they keep bringing up peoples names. He was mentioned in part at damn near the beginning of the manga. Zetsu showed up at the valley of the end and was like the 3rd member of akatsuki we seen. It would make sense that
> 
> 1. He knows so much about itachi
> 2. His teleportation jutsu (shisui the teleporter)
> ...


STOP WITH THE TELEPORTATION SHIT ALREADY.

It's Shunshin no Shisui. Not teleportation. The idiots at Viz translated it as teleportation. Shunshin is high speed movement, and Shisui was very good at it.
They DID find his body. And Shisui wasn't around the same age as Minato, he was way younger. Unless you think he likes hanging around 4 years old boys.



> The Izuna theory is picking up some logic with me now.


Yes, Tobi can be Izuna. But he's probably still Madara.


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## Rabbit and Rose (Oct 13, 2011)

No. I still think tobi is obito or that flashback with kakashi would be useless.


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## Hasan (Oct 13, 2011)

No, Tobi is Madara. Don't worry Kishi will come up with a crazy reason to prove this.


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## motto (Oct 13, 2011)

If Tobi is Obito I'll quit cigarettes.
Not gonna happen.


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

20-30 year old's(shisui) can hang out with 12 year olds (itachi) in the narutoverse they fight side by side on the battefield already.... Your thinking way too Japanese


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## 3rdgenkage (Oct 13, 2011)

I could see Obito being as evil as tobi though. I mean he did risk his life to save this girl and right when he dies. She says to Kakashi the dude that didn't care about her "but I love you." If Obito happend to survive knowing what happend I'm sure he would turn out just like Tobi hating the world. However I doubt that Obito survived.


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## Antlion6 (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi is Iruka.

I've never seen them in the same room.


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## Yuna (Oct 13, 2011)

*Tobi is Madara (somehow) or someone of his lineage (illegitimate son? Nephew?)*

So this chapter Kishimoto finally dropped the bomb-shell that the 6th Coffin (or so we assume, it could still be *another* coffin. I'm not saying it definitely *isn't* the 6th Coffin, but anything is possible by this point) is Madara.

So who then is Tobi? I say it still is Madara (somehow. Madara's consciousness (but not soul) in a new body? Some kind of clone? Who knows by this point. Either that or it's someone closely related to Madara like an illegitimate child or a nephew of some sort. Whoever it is, I can say one thing for sure: It still isn't Obito.

We've only gotten a partial view of Tobi's face on two occasions: When he was about to take off his mask when speaking to Sasuke and when he fought Konan. Again Sasuke, his face was still a bit ambiguous, but against Konan, it was clear as day: Tobi possesses Madara's eyes.

And I'm not just talking about Tobi possibly possessing Madara's Sharingan.

Kabuto explained that Orochimaru tried to summon Minato

Take a look at that. And then compare it to any flashback panels of Madara. Like this one. Both the upper and lower eyelids match up. So does the eyeshape. So unless Tobi is using a Henge to look like Madara, it's either Madara (somehow) or someone closely related to Madara. It also isn't Shisui or Obito because their eyes are nothing like that.

It *could* be Izuna if the lower "wrinkles" are just that, wrinkles due to age and not a lower eyelid. But whoever Tobi is, unless he's using a Henge, it ain't Obito or Shisui.


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## (510)THIZZ (Oct 13, 2011)

Red Queen said:


> The Izuna theory is picking up some logic with me now.


Like I said a bunch of times on here already. He Gave his eyes so his big brother would lead the clan to victory. That failed so he could have easily went and got some more eyes lol. Last but not least, HOW THE HELL COULD LOOSING YOUR EYES KILL YOU? It would also explain why he knows so damn much about pretty much everything.



Edward Newgate said:


> STOP WITH THE TELEPORTATION SHIT ALREADY.
> 
> It's Shunshin no Shisui. Not teleportation. The idiots at Viz translated it as teleportation. Shunshin is high speed movement, and Shisui was very good at it.
> *They DID find his body*. And Shisui wasn't around the same age as Minato, he was way younger. Unless you think he likes hanging around 4 years old boys.
> ...


*It could have been a perfect zetsu clone*

Itachi looked like a young teen and shisui looked like he was at least in his late 20's in that one panel a few chapters back. 
Kabuto explained that Orochimaru tried to summon Minato 
That younger pic of him we saw there's no way we could put a date on that. Itachi also looked up to him and he was his mentor remember. He also supposedly died some time after the 4th died(we never saw him so he could have looked about 30ish). He could have also controlled the mist kage with his ms jutsu. He was already a legendary ninja and was looked at as the strongest uchiha. Also the line about being a "shell of his former self". He could have attacked the village on orders from itachi's dad hence the reason for the mask.

I thought it was weird that we got introduced to muu's Body split justu. Then all of a sudden madara pops up with him. You don't think that muu could have learned his body split jutsu from him? Or madara could have copied muu's jutsu and used it to go up against hashirama just to steal his D.N.A and fake his death at the same time This would also explain the line "shell of my former self". It would also explain why his corps has no E.M.S.


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

If izuna gives madara his eyes what happens to madaras eyes? why cant they swap? DAMN I JUST BLEW MY MIND


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## Yuna (Oct 13, 2011)

(510)THIZZ said:


> He could have also controlled the mist kage with his ms jutsu.


Except he couldn't because MS Jutsu are bound to a single eye and Itachi held his Koto Amatsukami eyee.


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## (510)THIZZ (Oct 13, 2011)

Target said:


> 20-30 year old's(shisui) can hang out with 12 year olds (itachi) in the narutoverse they fight side by side on the battefield already.... Your thinking way too Japanese


lol thank you for this post lol sometimes I wounder what manga some people on here are reading. 

SMH at kakashi mentoring team 7 and itachi being in a war at 9 years old:amazed smh at 13 year old kids being put in danger to graduate from ninja school too


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## handsock (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi & Kakashi have VERY similiar but somewhat different occular powers. It's a VERY plausible theory that Madara (still being alive to know about Nagato at least who is around the same age as Kakashi/Obito I assume based on all the flashbacks) found Obito's remains and experimented on him using Orochimaru to make a memory/chakra clone of his own memories (much like Kushina & Minato have done), via zetsu, and attach them to Obito's very crippled body which was missing a sharingan, hence only having one eye hole the entire time until get a rinnegan to replace the missing eye. Thus, having a clone which knows it's purpose is to house the memories up until the point Uchiha Madara is revived so they can merge memories/bodies and attain both his youthful body & powerful new memories/abilities. Effectively making Madara Prime strong enough to control the Juubi to launch his Moon Eye plan.

Basically what I'm saying is Tobi is Obito's body with zetsu implanted Madara memories.


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

(510)THIZZ said:


> lol thank you for this post lol sometimes I wounder what manga some people on here are reading.
> 
> SMH at kakashi mentoring team 7 and itachi being in a war at 9 years old:amazed smh at 13 year old kids being put in danger to graduate from ninja school too



Before recent chapters really cleaned up shisui's plot purposes he was easily the leading tobi candidate and whenever I brought it up that was peoples argument. If you asume shishui was mid twenties at the time of his death everything fits.

That being said since the itachi release chapters I put him behind kagami, izuna and even sasukes dad as being tobi. Still ahead of obito though!


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## Shadow_fox (Oct 13, 2011)

I think you are really on to something. 

 A lot of people have really drowned themselves into speculation and everything that Tobi said. In short, Tobi actually fooled even the reader to believe that he IS Madara.

 First, your explanation of Tobi getting the Rin'negan from Nagato and saying that they were originally his is a VERY good point.
 Second, everyone was surprised by Madara but no one wondered how he could possibly know about the Rin'negan ability. That's not something that you can just guess, or think about. 
 Everyone knows that Nagato could bring back people from the dead, but no one wondered why he didn't bring back Jiraiya. The answer is VERY simple. It's because it takes and enormous amount of chakra to bring back people from the dead depending on how long they've been dead. So, he sacrificed Jiraiya to bring back all the people that died that day. 
 So, if Madara gained the Rin'negan, at the end of his days, what if he used the Rin'nne Tensei to bring back Izuna to life? But it took a whole lot of chakra to bring him back from the dead. And he might have died soon after. 
 Izuna realized that he needed someone else to bring back Madara as to not die himself, so he gave them to Nagato to ressurect Madara later.

 Lastly, Izuna's chosen name is TOBI, which is the same as Tobirama, the younger brother of Hashirama. This might be Kishimoto's clue that Tobi/Izuna is the younger brother of Madara


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## Kronin (Oct 13, 2011)

Personally I think that the corpse of Tobi could be anyone (Madara's of another Uchiha), but I think that the identity of Toby (his soul), is that of Madara with the Tobi's concern before the sixth coffin, and with his recognition as "Madara Uchiha" by Kisame (when he becomes his ally in the flashback and want see his face) and overall by the fox at the time of the attack of Konohagakure, I think that Tobi is actually Madara.

At last Tobi could be only Izuna Uchiha, with the last developments (especially with the revelation of the nature of Shisui) I don't think another character.


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## Yuna (Oct 13, 2011)

It's either Madara or Izuna. His eyes are identical to Madara's and almost identical to Izuna's. So unless Tobi is using a Henge, it's either Madar (somehow), Izuna or one of their progeny.


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## (510)THIZZ (Oct 13, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Except he couldn't because MS Jutsu are bound to a single eye and Itachi held his Koto Amatsukami eyee.


Well apparently he "supposedly" died some years after the 4th sacrificed himself. Think When we seen the uchiha police questioning itachi about Shisui's whereabouts because he missed a meeting for a time reference. The whole bloody mist era was some time before that remember? Also Itachi's dad was the leader of the uchiha and been plotting a takeover for years. So he could have easily sent shisui over to the mist. It would explain why the mist were beefing with the leaf at the time. Also it would explain the "bloody mist" theme which is exactly like the old uchiha way. Just some things to think about. Also they have been talking about him since the start of part one just like they did madara.


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## gawsome (Oct 13, 2011)

It's either Izuna or Madara's consciousness + eyes in a zetsu/hashirama body. Nothing else fits. I'll literally flay my penis and roast the skin if it's Obito - he simply doesn't have the knowledge required. Oh and a rock killed him.


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## Yuna (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi's soul cannot be Madara's unless it is split in half because Edo Madara possess that soul.


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## F3ar0ner (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi=Aizen


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## gawsome (Oct 13, 2011)

So, eh, how did Itachi get MS if he didn't kill Shisui after/whilst taking his eye?


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## Shadow_fox (Oct 13, 2011)

I'd like to add that Itachi stated that Madara gained the power to control the Kyuubi with his EMS. 

 But Tobi controlled the Kyuubi with only his normal Sharingan. 

 So why didn't people make the connection that it was Izuna's eyes the could control the Kyuubi, not Madara. 

 If Tobi was a ressurect Izuna, with his normal Sharingan, he could control Kyuubi.


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## handsock (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi & Kakashi have VERY similiar but somewhat different occular powers. It's a VERY plausible theory that Madara (still being alive to know about Nagato at least who is around the same age as Kakashi/Obito I assume based on all the flashbacks) found Obito's remains and experimented on him using Orochimaru to make a memory/chakra clone of his own memories (much like Kushina & Minato have done), via zetsu, and attach them to Obito's very crippled body which was missing a sharingan, hence only having one eye hole the entire time until get a rinnegan to replace the missing eye. Thus, having a clone which knows it's purpose is to house the memories up until the point Uchiha Madara is revived so they can merge memories/bodies and attain both his youthful body & powerful new memories/abilities. Effectively making Madara Prime strong enough to control the Juubi to launch his Moon Eye plan.

Basically what I'm saying is Tobi is Obito's body with zetsu implanted Madara memories.


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

gawsome said:


> So, eh, how did Itachi get MS if he didn't kill Shisui after/whilst taking his eye?



Its already  fact itachi didn't kill em read the manga bro


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## Yuna (Oct 13, 2011)

(510)THIZZ said:


> Well apparently he "supposedly" died some years after the 4th sacrificed himself. Think When we seen the uchiha police questioning itachi about Shisui's whereabouts because he missed a meeting for a time reference. The whole bloody mist era was some time before that remember? Also Itachi's dad was the leader of the uchiha and been plotting a takeover for years. So he could have easily sent shisui over to the mist. It would explain why the mist were beefing with the leaf at the time. Also it would explain the "bloody mist" theme which is exactly like the old uchiha way. Just some things to think about. Also they have been talking about him since the start of part one just like they did madara.


Since when is there a clear timeline of when the Bloody Mist era ended? In fact, Haku, who was roughly the same age as Part I Naruto when he died, was roughly the same age as Sasuke (if not *younger*) when the Bloody Mist era raged.

We don't *know* (unless there's a Databook entry somewhere that I don't know about) when the Bloody Mist Era ended.

If Tobi is Shisui, why would he give Itachi his Koto Amatsukami eye and entrust Itachi with protecting the village? Also, how the *flying fuck* would Tobi have managed to masquerade as Madara in front of Itachi, his best friend without Itachi noticing?


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## Zaeed (Oct 13, 2011)

Also Ao has met/fought Tobi in the past and knew him as the same Madara at the summit. He then sensed real Madara and didn't recognize him. I don't think he split his body. Maybe his soul was split and put into a Zetsu clone or something. 

Think about it, Tobi needed Rinne Tensei, Madara expected to be revived with it.
Tobi has a Zetsu arm and a half black face (probably nothing).
Tobi has something weird going on with one of his sides (he blocked the executioner blade with his arm)
Tobi had part of him turning into plants after fighting Minato like a Zetsu clone.
Tobi then knows all of the history Madara had so well, also able to be recognized as Tobi by Kisame and Itachi.
Zetsu can transform into people to disguise himself, perhaps the Zetsu that makes Tobi is a extra good case of this.
Tobi is unfazed by injuries unlike a normal human being.
He has a split personality that can be turned on and off ala Tobi - fake Madara.

Could explain shell of former self line.

I have the feeling Madara created Zetsu to carry out his mission and then revive him later when the plan could be carried out. Could explain why Tobi influenced Nagato to his side, while Madara knew Nagato as a kid. It could be possible that Madara wanted Tobi influence him as an allie since he was a child.


Anyway my theory is probably way off and will be shot down very soon. Oh well...


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## Icegaze (Oct 13, 2011)

Possibilities for me:
1. Madara's (mokuton) clone/experiment
2. Kagami
3. Izuna

No Fugaku. Lol no Obito.


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## Ichiurto (Oct 13, 2011)

Black Zetsu is Izuna


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

For the second part theres still alot we dont know about the uchiha masacre. Including itachis/tobis/danzous/ connection and shishuis death. Its logical to assume these holes will be filled as tobi removes his mask.

Hypothetically if tobi is shishui. He went to extreme ends to fake his death including sacrificing his eyes to convince people of his death. Perhaps to trick his closest friends.


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## Sorin (Oct 13, 2011)

Kagami? the hell? dude had only 2 panels in the entire story...

What's the reasoning behind tobi being Kagami again?


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## (510)THIZZ (Oct 13, 2011)

Target said:


> If izuna gives madara his eyes what happens to madaras eyes? why cant they swap? DAMN I JUST BLEW MY MIND


dude, you just absorb their eyes into yours lol. Which is why you take the eyes from one and give them to the other person to double their powers.



Target said:


> Before recent chapters really cleaned up shisui's plot purposes he was easily the leading tobi candidate and whenever I brought it up that was peoples argument. If you asume shishui was mid twenties at the time of his death everything fits.
> 
> That being said since the itachi release chapters I put him behind kagami, izuna and even sasukes dad as being tobi. Still ahead of obito though!


lol I thought about this too but I'm still sticking with it being izuna. That would be one hell of a plot twist and would make perfect sense. The second strongest uchiha in history would only fear his big brother and the 1st hokage. Shisui seemed to be more powerful than itachi at the time so he would only trip off seeing madara.

on another note:

kakashi is around or close to the same age as nagato. Kakashi is a bit older than itachi. Minato is a bit older than kakashi. The 4th and shisui were pretty much legends already around the 9 tails attack. The 4th seemed to be in his early 20's at that time(remember orochimaru talking about how young a kage he was and was inexperienced). Minato was teaching kakashi when he was like 14/15. Itachi looked to be at least 7 years old around the 9 tails attack. Fast forward 16 years later when shisui vanished that puts him around like 23(time for shisui to mentor him. This would put shisui around 30 something So yeah I think the 4th and shisui were around the same age lol.


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## BBQuyomi (Oct 13, 2011)

Shadow_fox said:


> I think you are really on to something.
> 
> A lot of people have really drowned themselves into speculation and everything that Tobi said. In short, Tobi actually fooled even the reader to believe that he IS Madara.
> 
> ...


I've never been a fan of any "Tobi = Izuna" theory, but I'm starting to like it put this way.


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## WorstUsernameEver (Oct 13, 2011)

No.


Has to be the worst theory of all time. And I have read a lot of bad theories while on NF


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## (510)THIZZ (Oct 13, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Since when is there a clear timeline of when the Bloody Mist era ended? In fact, Haku, who was roughly the same age as Part I Naruto when he died, was roughly the same age as Sasuke (if not *younger*) when the Bloody Mist era raged.
> 
> We don't *know* (unless there's a Databook entry somewhere that I don't know about) when the Bloody Mist Era ended.
> 
> If Tobi is Shisui, why would he give Itachi his Koto Amatsukami eye and entrust Itachi with protecting the village? Also, how the *flying fuck* would Tobi have managed to masquerade as Madara in front of Itachi, his best friend without Itachi noticing?





Target said:


> For the second part theres still alot we dont know about the uchiha masacre. Including itachis/tobis/danzous/ connection and shishuis death. Its logical to assume these holes will be filled as tobi removes his mask.
> 
> Hypothetically if tobi is shishui. He went to extreme ends to fake his death including sacrificing his eyes to convince people of his death. Perhaps to trick his closest friends.


thanks again dude. 

@ fallen angel

It's just speculation after taking a close look at naruto that's all. Think about it, zabuza is around the same age as kakashi right? Shisui is clearly older than kakashi. We first heard about the bloody mist era seeing a early teenaged zabuza killing his friends and shit. Yagura was like around like when the 3rd hokage was in charge. So that right the gives you some kind of time line to work with.


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## oricon (Oct 13, 2011)

Madara is obviously Uchiha Kagami.


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## Sareth (Oct 13, 2011)

Obito must have been about 13-15 years old in Kakashi's Gaiden. At the time, Minato hadn't become Hokage yet, though. That means, at the day of the Kyuubi attack, Obito would have been a little older. So it IS plausible that Tobi is in fact using Obito's body. No, Obito's not evil, but Madara is using his body for his own purposes. Obito is probably being possessed by Madara and/or Zetsu's used some jutsus on him.

All you nay-sayers are becoming more silly by the day. I'm going to be so fucking happy when Tobi takes off his mask, and reveals Obito's (deformed) face.


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## Heli (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi = Keyser Soze


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

*Who is tobi? A logical perspective*

Lets be honest no one knows. Kishi could make his grandmother tobi. The only absolutes in this debate are numbers. As a professional poker player I know something of these. The only thing we can be certain is the chances heres my take.

These are not the true odds these are my estimations. I am not perfect although better then most. I encourage you to add your take

40% izuna - Some mystery and the newest chapter pretty much confirmed that tobi is trying to revive madara. If izuna gave his eyes willingly he could easily pop in another uchihas and keep helpin his big bro. oO

25% madara clone etc - All signs point to this the percentage should probably be higher but its my view and my view is kishis a good writer and wont use a madara clone that would be horrible and boring 

10% sasukes dad - Im not buying that the uchiha leader and father of 1 and a half main characters has no plot relevance/is fodder. The fact that itachi stoped sasuke from seeing tobi's face is some evidence. Sasuke wouldn't know madaras face but he would know his dads and he could already see the sharingan through the mask. The point is tobi was trying to gain his trust showing madaras face would not do this.

13% kagami -a randomly inserted uchiha that would be the same age that tobi seems to be by appearance? SUSPICIOUS

5% shisui - I used to rank him higher but recent chapters seem to have burned out his plot purpose but theres still mystery here

2%obito - theres so many better options that make more sense dont know why so many support this one. Well I do its the name but i am pretty sure their only similar in english.

3% danzou/hokage/ huge plot twist - Possible but not really kishis style. He is a good writter but not the most unexpected. Lets be honest intelligent nf people were 90% sure madara was in the 6th coffin

2% elder son etc - Not too educated about this. Seems lame but a posabilty. There is a lot of long shot theory's with 1-2% that I didnt bother to add

0.1% new character - Theres really no chance here. The reason is because of kagami. He already made a uchiha character with connections to danzou and no history/plot he can expand on. If you have random uchiha #1 why make random uchiha#2?


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## Agony (Oct 13, 2011)

i hope what i think it is would not be what it is coz i want something i don know.

now that's what i call a cool story bro.


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## Appleofeden (Oct 13, 2011)

So y would he give up both his eyes? Especially when those eyes contain kotoamatsukamai the most powerful known genjutsu.


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## F3ar0ner (Oct 13, 2011)

*Tobi theories*

_I have seen a lot of theories about the identity of Tobi.
So, if there isn't another topic, I'll gather all the theories here._


*Tobi is Obito*​
Why he is Obito​

If you switch a few letters around, you get Obito.

His hair look like Obito.

Only his right eye is visible

Why he isn't Obito​

There is no motivation for him to do all this

Too weak to be main antagonist

Tobi looks too old to be Obito, a 12 year old kid


I will add other theories too.

Post your theories if you want.


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## takL (Oct 13, 2011)

there've been a masked longhair and a masked shorthair. maybe the long hair one itach met was the real madara. i dont remember if itach ever stated madara was tobi in akatsuki.

as for the current one i come to think that rikudoh sage's elder son is the most suspicious. 
because this masked guy clames to be the 2nd rikudoh 
and the second person who had rikudohs eyes was the elder son who thought he should be rikudoh sages heir by rights.


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

not sure if there names are similiar in japanese and ill take the 3 other mysterious uchiha's over a kid crushed by a rock any day


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## lathia (Oct 13, 2011)

^ taKL

But then that would mean both the long haired masked man & the short haired masked man have the same exact face. Kisame proves this when he recognized short haired masked man, as the same Madara with long hair. 

Can't wait to see how Kishi breaks this out.


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

Because he had to wait 10 years to use it anyway. He probably didnt have a brother was going blind and could not reach the next level which seems to be part of his goal. So ya he was blind


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## Vanadius (Oct 13, 2011)

Having Tobi be Izuna would be the most emotionally riveting.  It also makes the most sense given how personally invested Tobi seems to be in the whole Uchiha-Senju saga. Having both Madara and Izuna be present would blow the story out of the water.  

We can then really figure out what happened that led to the creation of the ninja system, which would then help Naruto solve it.

It also explains why he can't use the Mangekyo (and why he would hoard Sharingans as well as develop Sasuke's EMS - for his own future use).  Tobi clutches his arms when discussing Izuna's eye transfer.

Whether Tobi is Izuna isn't quite a slam dunk, however.  He could also be a person split off from Madara's body, or a clone.  

I don't believe Tobi is Fugaku.  That would ruin the tragedy of Sasuke's story.  Shisui was like Itachi when it came to protecting Konoha, an entity Tobi hates, so it can't be him.

Obito is only relevant to Kakashi.  He has no connection with any other character in the plot.  

The final possibility could be the Sage's Older Son.  Tobi seems to be well versed in the history of Rikudo Sennin.  Tobi's ideals and powers also match that of the Older Son while Naruto's match the Younger Son's.


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## Appleofeden (Oct 13, 2011)

U forgot to add lack of evidence as an argument against it being Obito. That & the Obito we knew fought for his comrades not against them. My problem with it being Obito is it completely destroys his character. This is the guy that made Kakashi who he is. The guy that said abandonig ur comrades makes u worse than trash. Now I'm supposed 2 believe he's the one fighting to enslave the entire world?


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## Perverted King (Oct 13, 2011)

Obito's body found by the original Madara, who used Harishama's cells and Zetsu to create a clone of himself and repair what was damaged of Obito's body. However, some of Obito's personality remain within Madara which explains his occasional goofiness. Madara died soon after because all the wounds from battles got the best of him.


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## takL (Oct 13, 2011)

lathia said:


> Kisame proves this when he recognized short haired masked man, as the same Madara with long hair.



oh yes! it was the longhaired one in kisame's flashback!  i wasnt noticing! 
the hair style theory is flawed.


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## Syntaxis (Oct 13, 2011)

Izuna - Could be, but the way Tobi reacted made me doubt this. "Where did you get THAT?" was what he asked of Kabuto. I'd say easily a 60% change.

Madara clone - No way. 0%

Sasukes dad - Itachi and Sasuke would both have recognized him. And seeing as chakra's being signatures, someone from Konoha would've recognized him as well, I'm sure. Also, he was masked and long-haired when he met with young Itachi. 2% Chance at best.

Kagami - Looks like him, hair and eyebrow-wise. But he'd rather old, the mask would need to hide a really old face for this to make sense. But.. Tobi seems to be rather young in behavior and appearance. Especially compared to the other old folks in the manga. 5% Chance.

Shisui - Not likely at all, Tobi refered to "Shisui's eyes" and Itachi would've said something about it, too. As they were best friends. 1%.

Obito - Impossible. Tobi was too tall and too old when he fought with Minato. Obito was younger at that point in time, much younger.

Danzou/kages - Nah. Danzou is a goner and the Hokages are sealed up. Another random unknown Kage could be, but that'd be boring. 0%.

Elder son of Rikudo Sennin - Possible, but story-wise unlikely. The younger son got the longevity and bodily strength. The older son did not. Him surviving the younger son wouldn't be good storytelling. 5%.

New character - 27% Chance. Because there is still time for a "It can't be HIM, can it?" and suddenly: a wild flashback appears! Also, he could just be a completely new character that nobody has ever heard of, who just happens to be brilliant, immortal and powerful. It'd create a whole new mystery on itself.

I'd put my money on Izuna. But Kagami is a lot more interesting because he can get a ton of background added to his character this way. And it'd open up a ton of interesting flashbacks.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 13, 2011)

III Mizukage


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## daperius (Oct 13, 2011)

tobi attacked konoha 6 years before shisui died...doesn't make any sense at all


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## The World (Oct 13, 2011)

*I KNOW WHO TOBI IS!*

It's Sasuke from the future.


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## Chibason (Oct 13, 2011)

But how would Shisui have controlled Kyuubi? 

And how did he fight so well against Minato? 

And why would Kyuubi recognize Shisui as Madara?

And why would Shisui always make his curly hair look spiky if he's already wearing a mask?

And how could Shisui have given child Nagato rinnegan?


...I dont think Tobi is Shisui


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

daperius said:


> tobi attacked konoha 6 years before shisui died...doesn't make any sense at all



Ok I try not to be a dick but your stupid bro oO. Its easier to sneak around in a village IF YOUR PART OF THAT VILLAGE


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## Jaruka (Oct 13, 2011)

Target said:


> Ok I try not to be a dick but your stupid bro oO. Its easier to sneak around in a village IF YOUR PART OF THAT VILLAGE


and wearing a mask means that the Hokage can't recognise you what-so-ever? Plus, Shisui was young enough when Itachi 'killed' him there's no way he'd be old enough to look like Tobi did when Sasuke was only a baby.


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## Afalstein (Oct 13, 2011)

Hm.  Well, I was going to guess Fugaku, as he's the main Uchiha not yet accounted for, and would have been present at the Kyuubi attack.  However, the "part Madara" theory is unusually compelling, now that I hear the idea of him splitting his soul in two.  It would certainly explain why Tensei Madara knows all about Nagato, and why everyone back through Minato have considered Tobi to be Madara.  If he did split his soul, I would guess that the good half is the one that's been resurrected, and thus it is the half that considers the resurrection technique to be an unspeakable atrocity.


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## Enclave (Oct 13, 2011)

Syntaxis said:


> Obito - Impossible. Tobi was too tall and too old when he fought with Minato. Obito was younger at that point in time, much younger.



All you have to judge his age is his height when he fought Minato.  Yet if you look at Kakashi and Gai, they certainly don't appear to be very short.  Maybe not fully grown but still, they are tall enough.

It's perfectly possible that Obito was tall enough at that point in time.

Really, the only thing that doesn't work with Tobito is how Tobi claims to have given Nagato the Rinnegan.  But Tobi loves to lie so that's not an issue.


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## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

Syntaxis said:


> Izuna - Could be, but the way Tobi reacted made me doubt this. "Where did you get THAT?" was what he asked of Kabuto. I'd say easily a 60% change.
> 
> Madara clone - No way. 0%
> 
> ...



Madara clone being 0%? Would you gamble your life savings on this for a dollar?

27% chance for a new character? I feel like your thinking more what you want then whats going to happen. I want tobi to be shishui but lets be honest here =[ Madara knows about nagato that alone suggest theres at least a CHANCE they once shared the same mind



Enclave said:


> All you have to judge his age is his height when he fought Minato.  Yet if you look at Kakashi and Gai, they certainly don't appear to be very short.  Maybe not fully grown but still, they are tall enough.
> 
> It's perfectly possible that Obito was tall enough at that point in time.
> 
> Really, the only thing that doesn't work with Tobito is how Tobi claims to have given Nagato the Rinnegan.  But Tobi loves to lie so that's not an issue.



except he was crushed by a rock.

But seriously sure it can work if you stretch it hard but when theres 5 way better options? your dreamin bro. What I wanna know is if tobi and obito are close in japanese because thats pretty much all the evidence and thats sad


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## Enclave (Oct 13, 2011)

Target said:


> except he was crushed by a rock.
> 
> But seriously sure it can work if you stretch it hard but when theres 5 way better options? your dreamin bro. What I wanna know is if tobi and obito are close in japanese because thats pretty much all the evidence and thats sad



Ah, right, the whole crushed by a rock thing.  Almost like he'd have to replace ruined limbs with Zetsu parts right?

Also, it's not all the evidence there is to support it.


----------



## takL (Oct 13, 2011)

but obito had the will of fire... i dont think he could be converted.

And zetsu always calls the masked one tobi..i bet its his real name.


----------



## Target (Oct 13, 2011)

really please share ive always viewed this theory as a bad joke



Enclave said:


> Ah, right, the whole crushed by a rock thing.  Almost like he'd have to replace ruined limbs with Zetsu parts right?
> 
> Also, it's not all the evidence there is to support it.



oh you responded to the joke part... My real debate was below it I think the rock thing has been said


----------



## Ferno (Oct 13, 2011)

Obito repaired by Zetsu goo.


----------



## takL (Oct 13, 2011)

Chibason said:


> And why would Kyuubi recognize Shisui as Madara?



i aint sure about that. 9b just said 'you are...!' when it was about to get genjutsued by the masked.

anyhoo im with you  cos like obito, shisui had the will of fire.


----------



## Phantom Roxas (Oct 13, 2011)

I seriously don't want Tobi to be a new character.

It actually could be Kagami, considering how he was around the same age as Danzo and the other elders, and they are (Or "were" in Danzo's case) pretty old and wrinkly.

If Tobi is a Madara clone, why would he be disturbed that Kabuto found his other half? For that matter, why make a clone in the first place? I'm not saying that Tobi being a clone is impossible, but there needs to be an explanation for that.


----------



## daperius (Oct 13, 2011)

tobi being madara seems to be nearly impossible, as we know to be resurrected the soul needs to reside in the pure world
only possibility would be an alternate universe, another madara traveled from to the original one (o.O)

But I'm not shure coz he's been so straight in posing as madara:
almost died
almost died
almost died ff.
almost died (long haired!!!)
almost died

The Obito threads:
Obito was thirteen years old when he died. The same year Akatsuki was founded, one Year later Tobi attacked Konoha. Insufficient time to fully regenerate, turn against the village, form the plan, gather the whole knowledge, exceeding both the 2nd and the 4th using space?time ninjutsu, learning to control the 9-tails...

So yet i don't know...


----------



## Penance (Oct 13, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> These threads are going to be a regular thing again, eh?



I don't see why they wouldn't be...


----------



## Hokage Sennin (Oct 13, 2011)

Half-Madara, Zetsu, Obito, or some random Uchiha.


----------



## Deaf Ninja Reaper (Oct 13, 2011)

If it is Obito.

Then I will just get up from my chair and do that -



And then I would feel -


----------



## takL (Oct 13, 2011)

Deaf Ninja Reaper said:


> If it is Obito.
> 
> Then I will just get up from my chair and do that -
> 
> ...



itachi would do the same if it was shisui.


----------



## Summers (Oct 13, 2011)

Deaf Ninja Reaper said:


> If it is Obito.
> 
> Then I will just get up from my chair and do that -
> 
> ...



I would still deny and say its fucking stupid. The few crazys who say its Obito would shit themselves because they never actually though it was possible and were just trolling. I would not let them rub it in and still say Tobi no Obito cause its freaking stupid. I would attack and rage at anyone who tried, ban be damned. I would lobby the mods to not allow anyone to type that name. I would be in a permanent "fuck this shit" mode.


----------



## Penance (Oct 13, 2011)

summers said:


> I would still deny and say its fucking stupid. The few crazys who say its Obito would shit themselves because they never actually though it was possible and were just trolling. I would not let them rub it in and still say Tobi no Obito cause its freaking stupid. I would attack and rage at anyone who tried, ban be damned. I would lobby the mods to not allow anyone to type that name. I would be in a permanent "fuck this shit" mode.



I can't wait...


----------



## mayumi (Oct 13, 2011)

its danzou


----------



## Icegaze (Oct 13, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 









  

Sums up this thread/situation.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Oct 13, 2011)

It's the Uchiha Ancestor who's been manipulating people, including Madara.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

summers said:


> I would still deny and say its fucking stupid. The few crazys who say its Obito would shit themselves because they never actually though it was possible and were just trolling. I would not let them rub it in and still say Tobi no Obito cause its freaking stupid. I would attack and rage at anyone who tried, ban be damned. I would lobby the mods to not allow anyone to type that name. I would be in a permanent "fuck this shit" mode.



See it's because of stuff like this that I want it to be true so badly.


----------



## GunX2 (Oct 13, 2011)

Icegaze said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Its either Madara or Izuna....im putting all my eggs in those baskets.


----------



## Nic (Oct 13, 2011)

Chibason said:


> But how would Shisui have controlled Kyuubi?
> 
> And how did he fight so well against Minato?
> 
> ...



why do people keep saying that the Kyuubi recognized tobi as Madara?   Did the Kyuubi say Madara? no he said you and as we know the kyuubi's knowledge of people extends further than just Madara.


----------



## Talis (Oct 13, 2011)

Lets start from the very beginning and forget about anything.
You see this guy for the first time:



Who do you think he would be?
Orange 1 eye holed mask. (Forget about the other eye which he got from his Sharingan lab)
Goofy guy.
*Toobi **o*bi*TO*.
S/T like Kakashis.
Pins in body.
same hairstyle.
And the most important thing *Tobi is a good boy* and not an old fart which is supposed to died 200 years ago.
Just telling it again last 2 months of Kakashis year left, means within 2 months that mask will finally break. :ho


----------



## Penance (Oct 13, 2011)

loool3 said:


> Lets start from the very beginning and forget about anything.
> You see this guy for the first time:
> 
> 
> ...



I think you're right...:ho


----------



## Rama (Oct 13, 2011)

Ive think about it for a while and I got my candidates

*Obito*-I really don't think it could be Obito, Obito has been part of the sub story and Obito last time we saw him wasn't evil.  It would quite an asspull. 

*Izuna*- Madara interacted with Nagato before so it safe to say he had plans for the future. The story wouldn't make sense, since if Izuna took his brothers eyes instead of th other way around Madara should have been blind when he met Nagato and thats just to weird. 

*Black Zetsu*- Real Madara created a Black Zetsu clone before his death and now that Zestu wants to be the Real Madara and fulfill his goal. 

*Madara Horcrux*-  Madara copied Muu splitting and splitted his soul into 2 parts One Soul died the other Soul is part Zetsu and thus lives forever.  Might be something there but we dont really know if Madara can do this. This one has the clearer goal of all of the candidates.

*Shishui Uchiha*- I dont really know what kind of theory there could be for Shishui but the fact that Kabuto stated he couldn't find his body gives him a spot on my list.

*Kagami Uchiha*- One of the most recent theories he looks similar and has ties with the elders but other than that I don't see much proof for him being Tobi. 

*New Character*- Asspull thats all im saying.

Now to pick a candidate we have to think about this.

1. According to Tobi one needs EMS to control the Kyubii, Tobi controlled the Kyubbi thus the candidate must have or may had acquire EMS. This alone rules out Obito, Shishui, Kagami.  Because only way to acquire EMS is to implant your brothers eyes, Even if Obito was Shishui brother neither of them had access to each others eyes and Kagami as far as we know doesn't have a brother or Sister.

Of course you could say "Well maybe Tobi doesnt have EMS" but If im not mistaken Itachi said Tobi had acquire another technique in EMS, so for now I think he has it.

Now only ones left are Izuna, Black Zestu and Madara Horcrux to be honest I pick *Black Zetsu* just because Madara has already shown signs of Zetsu Goo.


----------



## Talis (Oct 13, 2011)

^You need MS not the EMS.

Edit in the case you will say Obito didnt had the MS:
If we look at Obitos last words it was like: I couldnt convince Rin that i was in love with her, i lost everything..and like that.
He was completely desperate and knew that he would die and lose everything in his life, isnt that a requirment to awaken the MS?


----------



## Rama (Oct 13, 2011)

loool3 said:


> ^You need MS not the EMS.







> _Madara had used his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan to fully control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox._


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

The Itachi/Sasuke fight confirmed MS is all you need to control the Kyuubi.

Going by Tobi's actions the night of the Kyuubi attack even that might not be necessary.


----------



## gershwin (Oct 13, 2011)

No, realy. Tobi is Madara - the only theory that makes sence.
The part of his soul in someones body or Madara`s clone - whatever.
But Tobi is still Madara. 
Kyuubi recognized him.
*Nagato had to use  rinne tensei on _ME_*, *_I_ gave Nagato rinnegan*, *I want to become complete* he said. And Tobi`s face (part of it) - Madara`s aged face. All his knowledge, his adoration of Hashirama etc. 
Any *other character* just doesn`t compute with all this.


----------



## Talis (Oct 13, 2011)

Madara had *used *his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan to fully control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox.


:
The Mangekyō Sharingan has the ability to control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox,


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

I fail to see how Tobi being Madara makes sense when you have to make a _huge_ leap in logic and assume quite a lot in order to reach that point.


----------



## Doge (Oct 13, 2011)

If tobi is madara, then why doesn't he just make an army of Tobi clones with zetsu and his sharingan collection?


----------



## Rama (Oct 13, 2011)

loool3 said:


> Madara had *used *his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan to fully control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox.
> 
> 
> :
> The Mangekyō Sharingan has the ability to control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox,



I don't think EMS was introduced before the Sasuke Itachi fight and teh Kyubii has only been controlled with EMS but whatever Ill take it.  Either way Obito is just not logical.



> Edit in the case you will say Obito didnt had the MS:
> If we look at Obitos last words it was like: I couldnt convince Rin that i was in love with her, i lost everything..and like that.
> *He was completely desperate and knew that he would die and lose everything in his life, isnt that a requirement to awaken the MS?*



Not really, I believe is the loss to the most important person to you,  Obito was relaxed through that whole experience, he even accepted death by saying he will see the future by Kakashi's eyes.  And even if he had awaken the MS for whatever unknown reason why would he go and become evil for no reason if he just wanted to be with his friends.


----------



## Talis (Oct 13, 2011)

^Thats also a thing im wondering.
Everything makes sense to me expect him becoming evil.
Perhaps he went berzerk that Minato didnt care about him?
They left Obitos death body back there, maybe he feeled like he got betrayed or perhaps he really has Madaras mind which will be kinda strange.
And Tobi isnt pure full of hatred.
He created a war to ''achieve peace'' thnx to him the 5 countries got united lol.


----------



## Rama (Oct 13, 2011)

loool3 said:


> ^Thats also a thing im wondering.
> Everything makes sense to me expect him becoming evil.
> *Perhaps he went berzerk that Minato didnt care about him?
> They left Obitos death body back there, maybe he feeled like he got betrayed or perhaps he really has Madaras mind which will be kinda strange.
> ...



This just doesnt make sense, Obito would have to be an idiot to think that people wouldn't care for him, if he wanted to know if people cared for him he should just show up at the village problem solved.

And he doesn't want to achieve peace, he has killed bunch of people already, he just wants to be the most powerful and control the world.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

Motivation doesn't matter, if Tobi is anyone other than Madara his true motivations will have to be explained anyway, because they are obviously different from what we've been led to believe.

But as for Obito I've always been drawn to the line he says here


----------



## XSOLDIER (Oct 13, 2011)

I personally think that he's a .


*X*


----------



## streets27 (Oct 13, 2011)

If he died recently why doesnt he look one hundred years old Edo tensei brings back the person as they were before they died Madara looked like he did against the first


----------



## Penance (Oct 13, 2011)

gershvin said:


> No, realy. Tobi is Madara - the only theory that makes sence.



How does it make sense, when Madara's right in fornt of us...?


----------



## gershwin (Oct 13, 2011)

Penance said:


> How does it make sense, when Madara's right in fornt of us...?


Narutos are everywhere too.


----------



## Penance (Oct 13, 2011)

gershvin said:


> Narutos are everywhere too.



And all of them are alive...


----------



## Olivia (Oct 13, 2011)

There's a sealed Muu and a unsealed Muu as well. What's your point?


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Oct 13, 2011)

KillerFlow said:


> Muu's splitting tech is a kekkei tota though, so it's really hard to believe the Sharingan could copy that. Unless the EMS could..



Ummmm...... Prove it


----------



## chauronity (Oct 13, 2011)

Tobi = Madara's wandering/rogue spirit
Edomadara = Madara's long gone body

But ofcourse Kishi wants us to believe, that Tobi is someone else, like that one Uchiha from Tobirama's (coincidence?) team. 

ps.

Super duper crack theory:

Madara is not actually a name, it's a being of some sort. Like jinchuuriki. Once uchiha achieves certain level (Super EMS with Rinnegan), he becomes "Madara".


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 13, 2011)

chauronity said:


> Tobi = Madara's wandering/rogue spirit
> Edomadara = Madara's long gone body



That's not how Edo Tensei works.

Edo Madara has the soul of Madara, but Edo Tensei creates an artificial body.


----------



## joshhookway (Oct 13, 2011)

obito is back


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm of the opinion that Madara had Zetsu make a perfect clone of himself. He then genjutsu'd clone to think that it was Madara. 

If you watched Heroes, it would be similar to what Matt did to Sylar. After Nathan died, Matt made it so that Sylar thought that he was Nathan and Sylar's transformation ability made it so he looked like Nathan.


----------



## chauronity (Oct 13, 2011)

Wiki OMG. Does this kind of sources even count? Just saying..


----------



## chauronity (Oct 13, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> That's not how Edo Tensei works.
> 
> Edo Madara has the soul of Madara, but Edo Tensei creates an artificial body.



I speculated that it has a FRAGMENT of his soul. Splitting up and stuff.


----------



## Rama (Oct 13, 2011)

chauronity said:


> Wiki OMG. Does this kind of sources even count? Just saying..



most of the time they do, although I was technically wrong this time.  Like I said they most of the time accurate since is just info from the manga just resumed and they are less time consuming if you don't really remember a chapter where a statement was said.


----------



## Motochika (Oct 13, 2011)

Ugh this doesn't make sense. When Hashirama and Madara fought the third was still a kid which means Jiriaya would've been a baby. How the hell could Nagato who's younger than all those mentioned be around at this time? @.@


----------



## MaskedMan88 (Oct 14, 2011)

I have an Idea... 

Maybe tobi is IZUNA... ok now we all know that each set of eyes does something sorta unique...

shisui can manipulate and control people without them knowing...

Obito most likely had time space ninjutsu ability... 

sasuke and itachi is similiar both being amatertsu since they are brothers...

ok now...

Izuna lost both his eyes to madara right so he can have ems...

if izuna lived he would want to find a pair of uchiha eyes right?

2 people with 1 eye is Danzou with shishui's ability to manipulate people and KAKAshi with his time space ninjutsu...  if each eye has a different technique in similiar style mayyybe

Izuna took 1 of obitos eyes and one of shisui's eyes and that is why Izuna aka tobi has the ability to teleport thru space and also was probably the one to control the 4th mizukage of the rain...

this means the real madara is dead...
how he knows nagato has grown idk yet


----------



## Battoumaru (Oct 14, 2011)

*Tobi is:*

Option A) Tobi is the real Madara, and the corpse Kabuto summoned was Izuna modified in the same manner that Kabuto modified the puppets created by his Shikon no Jutsu in order to create an Edo Tensei corpse that looks like Madara. Izuna should have had some degree of understanding about Tobirama considering he was the enemy. This is an option I consider extremely unlikely.

Option 2) Tobi is Izuna, who has taken on his older brother's legacy as Sasuke has done with Itachi by taking his eyes for Eien no Mangekyo Sharingan. The only difference would be that Izuna took his older brother's name, whereas Sasuke has not as of this moment. The real Madara died after setting up Izuna for victory against the enemies of the Uchiha in the same way that Sasuke was set up to be able to defeat Madara by Itachi. This is the real Cycle of Hatred. So far the idea has been that the younger/less well known/weaker brother tends to ultimately turn toward hatred and the darkness, while the elder maintains their higher ground from a moral standpoint. The way in which Edo Tensei!Madara spoke does not reek of obvious and cliche villainy as Naruto villains' speech and diction generally does, and he appears to be physically similar to Itachi, whereas Izuna appears more similar to Sasuke. This, on top of everything else makes me believe that Tobi is Izuna, who has taken on the identity of his elder brother for some reason, who ultimately became lost on the path toward the darkness as Sasuke did so many years later.

Discuss.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 14, 2011)

Battoumaru said:


> Option A) Tobi is the real Madara, and the corpse Kabuto summoned was Izuna modified in the same manner that Kabuto modified the puppets created by his Shikon no Jutsu in order to create an Edo Tensei corpse that looks like Madara. Izuna should have had some degree of understanding about Tobirama considering he was the enemy. This is an option I consider extremely unlikely.



This makes no sense because Edo Tensei summons souls, not corpses.


----------



## Battoumaru (Oct 14, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> This makes no sense because Edo Tensei summons souls, not corpses.



It's still a body of a nonliving person, regardless of whether or not it is made of dust, therefore, I consider it a corpse. You know what I mean, though. Perhaps he modified the Edo body like he did with his Shikon no Jutsu. I could see Kishi explaining it away like that.The first option could basically only happen if Kishi really just didn't care anymore. That's why I said it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't put it past Kishi to give a simple explanation to a complicated plot, though. Ignore Option A.


----------



## Saru (Oct 14, 2011)

Erm...

This is a really spontaneous question, but does anyone think it could be possible for Zetsu to communicate with Madara (the "real" Madara) instantaneously? Isn't Zetsu capable of creating spores? Could Zetsu feed Madara information this way?


----------



## Summers (Oct 14, 2011)

14 pages of threads in telegrams.


----------



## santanico (Oct 14, 2011)

Wait, someone fill me in.. how does "Madara" know about Nagato?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Oct 14, 2011)

Starr said:


> Wait, someone fill me in.. how does "Madara" know about Nagato?



We have no idea.

Hopefully we'll get an explanation soon.


----------



## jacamo (Oct 14, 2011)

Starr said:


> Wait, someone fill me in.. how does "Madara" know about Nagato?



this is the most fucked up thing about the chapter actually

it could mean so many things

because most of us guessed Madara would be in the coffin... those who thought it was someone else really dont deserve to be making predictions


----------



## jigen22 (Oct 14, 2011)

you know...im glad the majority is sayin Madara... cuz quite frankly it fells better to be right with the minority. Answer me this though.

1. When does the Kyubi recognize Tobi as madara?

2. Why would Tobi be worried that people would see Edo Madara?

3. Why can't Nagato be a name passed on to different people or something of the like.


----------



## chauronity (Oct 14, 2011)

The easiest and the most logical answer would be along the lines: 

1. That dude ain't Madara. They are wrong. 
2. They both are Madara. We just are yet to be shown how it's possible.


----------



## Estar (Oct 14, 2011)

*So who is behind the mask?*

Until the latest chapter i was convinced that Tobi = Madara for a lot of reasons...he knew everything about Madara and the Uchiha, he has EMS, which officially, only Madar ever a achieved (ok and now sasuke) (and the only other official MS users are kakashi and Itachi...well and the dead shisui) and Tobi even said himself that he is madara...not to forget the whole narutoverse thinks that he is madara.

But now a resurrected Madara stands on the battlefield...so who the hell is Tobi? The only known MS users that are not on the field are dead. Tobi himself doesnt seem to be THAT powerfull or otherwise he would not have been scared when Kabuto presented Madara as his trump card.

What do you think? (and please no trolling ^^ i want to read serious thoughts here


----------



## ソラのシン-사마 (Oct 14, 2011)

*Who Is Tobi?*

It's who I've been saying from the Get-Go.

One of the Mizukages, we got that hint when Kisame called him "Mizukage".


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Oct 14, 2011)

The reason kismae called midara mizukage because he was literly the 4th Mizukage because he was controlling Yagura with Shisui's Sharingan Jutsu

1. 

2. 

3. Evil Madara clone made from zetsu goo


----------



## Estar (Oct 14, 2011)

Well Mu was able to split into 2 bodies - one died, the other one lived ^^

In theory, Tobi could still be Madara - sort of but honestly while explainable it would be lame...


----------



## Magikbyrd (Oct 14, 2011)

I think it's either Madara in some other form, Madara's little brother, Rikudou, or one of Rikudou's kids.


----------



## Ezekial (Oct 14, 2011)

TELEGRAMS!!!! there is a sub section at the top of Konoha library called  were any current chapter discussion goes to avoid spoiling it for others, You need to get this moved or deleted.


----------



## ovanz (Oct 14, 2011)

*Toby theory number 24353566*

2 theories actually:

1 - Some say that he is a zetsu with madara's mind and all that. It can be, but if Madara body is the other half of black zetsu? Maybe zetsu black was a whole being and he divided into Tobi. Why use a fodder white zetsu when clearly the black one is the one who give orders and know stuff the whites don't? And tobi himself said that the white zetsu is not a combat type.

2 - This may already by proposed but i'm gonna post the reasons for this theory, and there's not a single prof that can deny this. Tobi is:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Think of who is not in the war. 

Think of who we never see together with Tobi. 

Think who is the one the village just accepted as a regular folk.

Think who is putting a secret jutsu in the ramen naruto eat all this years.

Teruichi eyes? sharingan right there. 

Teruichi may have a secret spiky hair under the chef hat.

We have never see Teruichi naked body, you know there's zetsus right there.

Teruichi daughter? another zetsu in disguisse.

Did you ever saw teruichi lost a fight?. I wonder if the t/s jutsu play a role in that.

Also Gedo mazo needs food. Teruichi ramen empire to the rescue. 

He fooled everyone; itachi, orochimaru, danzo, nagato, etc. He was secretly smiling when konoha was attacked. We never saw teruichi during the pain invasion or orochimaru's attack. 

Offtopic: waw there's like 3 sakura icons, one of karin, and no icon for teruichi? son i'm dissapointed.


----------



## Ezekial (Oct 14, 2011)

Teruichi is FV ofc


----------



## Csdabest (Oct 14, 2011)

Tobi is a zetsu clone of Madara to carry out his mission and make sure he gets ressurected. Tobi just went insane though. I dont think real Madara would have condoned the massacre of the Uchiha clan IMO


----------



## kx11 (Oct 14, 2011)

if kishi allowed naruto to turn to kyuubi mode ( like his fight with pain ) i'll ignore naruto forever and stick with OP


----------



## lazyeyeZ0o (Oct 14, 2011)

I think the best answer would be madara little brother. only he would know all the history and have the same anger.


----------



## Penance (Oct 14, 2011)

lazyeyeZ0o said:


> I think the best answer would be madara little brother. only he would know all the history and have the same anger.



Zetsu would know, from the moment of his creation (shortly after the fight with First) on...


----------



## takL (Oct 14, 2011)

and zetsu would call it izuna...
i dont see any reason for zstsu to call it tobi when its not actually tobi.

plus it(tobi) seemed to be quite objective when comparing madara vs hashirama to sasuke vs naruto as if it had seen many duos like them.


----------



## Tribat (Oct 14, 2011)

From 10/6:


Tribat said:


> 6th coffin is Madara's real body. Fact.



Vindication.


----------



## takL (Oct 14, 2011)

theres no vindication from kabuto yet. 
whether madara was in the 6th coffin, his trump card or somethin else.


----------



## Klue (Oct 14, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> Tobi is a zetsu clone of Madara to carry out his mission and make sure he gets ressurected. Tobi just went insane though. I dont think real Madara would have condoned the massacre of the Uchiha clan IMO



Why?

The real Madara also hated Konoha and the Uchiha Clan.


----------



## Tyrion (Oct 14, 2011)

This is killing me lol Waiting another week for the explanations and stuff, the cliffhangers are so good sometimes i hate them 

I've been re-reading the chapter with orochimaru's theme playing in the background, kinda suited the chapter


----------



## Penance (Oct 14, 2011)

^There may not even be that many explanations in just the one chapter.  It could take up to SIX weeks...  (at least six weeks of Obitobi threads...and that's if we're wrong...)


----------



## blacksword (Oct 14, 2011)

Where's Obito option?


----------



## Fido (Oct 14, 2011)

what if..and i mean IF, tobi is orochimaru? clearly there's no evidence, but the fact that his plans before his "death" by sasuke were to obtain sharigan.both tobi has sharigan AND rinnegan. orochimaru wanted to take over the world, tobi is doing that exact same thing, orochimaru was the only person that was able to persuade sasuke into doing his bidding, in one chapter tobi was able to form propaganda to make sasuke join akatsuki as subsection "Hawk".i don't know ,just opening up other possibilities


----------



## Perverted King (Oct 14, 2011)

He's Obito. There's to much evidence to think otherwise.


----------



## Talis (Oct 14, 2011)

Fido said:


> what if..and i mean IF, tobi is orochimaru? clearly there's no evidence, but the fact that his plans before his "death" by sasuke were to obtain sharigan.both tobi has sharigan AND rinnegan. orochimaru wanted to take over the world, tobi is doing that exact same thing, orochimaru was the only person that was able to persuade sasuke into doing his bidding, in one chapter tobi was able to form propaganda to make sasuke join akatsuki as subsection "Hawk".i don't know ,just opening up other possibilities



What if Orochimaru finally gave up and decided to transfer into a body of a death Uchiha.


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## son_michael (Oct 14, 2011)

Hashirama said:


> This just doesnt make sense, Obito would have to be an idiot to think that people wouldn't care for him, if he wanted to know if people cared for him he should just show up at the village problem solved.
> 
> And he doesn't want to achieve peace, he has killed bunch of people already, he just wants to be the most powerful and control the world.




he could be brainwashed or genjutsu'd, he could also just be the body of obito with no mind whatsoever.


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## MagicEngr (Oct 14, 2011)

Izuna Uchiha.


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## MovingFlash415 (Oct 14, 2011)

IZUNA, goddamnit!!!


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## Rabbit and Rose (Oct 14, 2011)

Get your magnifying glasses out and read my sig.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Oct 14, 2011)

I think that tobi is a seedling of madara, made from mokuton.
After all, that is what the whole fight between him and hashirama was for, to acquire his DNA.

Madara "died" that day, but Tobi was born from it.
Tobi is a... plant copy of madara. A transference of DNA and memory into a plant matter copy.

So, I think tobi is his "son".
He looks older than madara because he IS older than madara.

Also, pic


Madara is something like an advanced zetsu, or moreso, zetsu is a degenerate copy of the jutsu madara used to reincarnate himself. He is a spore copy of madara.


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## AndreMB (Oct 14, 2011)

Tobi to Sasuke: Even Itachi didn't know everything about me. Otherwise I would be dead right now.
Tobi to Zetsu: What!? I don't believe it. Just kidding. It's as I expected.
Tobi to Zetsu: I trust you have it recorded. (the fight itachi vs sasuke)
Tobi to Kakashi: I'll take you on another time.
Tobi to Sasuke: Like you, I am a survivor of the Uchiha Clan.
His erasing technique is mentioned by Kakashi to be superior to the Fourth's technique.
Tobi to Sasuke: How like Itachi, to think he planned things this far. (How does Tobi know Itachi wants 			to kill him?)
Tobi to Sasuke: Strength meant everything back then, so I killed my friend, along with my own little 			brother just to become even stronger.
Tobi to Sasuke: My younger brother even agreed to it and he offered his eyes to me. (clinches to his 			shirt)
Clans declared a truce...yada yada... Tobi: For what purpose did my brother sacrifice himself?
Tobi: My clansmen turned their backs on me, thinking I was trying to light the coals of war once more. I was betrayed.
Tobi: They claimed I robbed my brother of his eyes for greed and to save my own life. There's no one who would ever do such a thing to their own brother.
Tobi: I left the village simply as a man betrayed by all. And then, insisted on revenge, I challenged and fought against the entire village.
Tobi: He told me that in exchange for letting me get revenge on the Uchiha, I couldn't lay a finger on the village. And, that he would help me with his own hands to exterminate our clansmen.
Also, Tobi can use Izunagi. Now tell me the man ain't Madara.
Tobi: Legend has it that Uchiha Madara was bested by Hashirama. But, is the legend true?... I fought that battle to gain access to his abilities. I am Uchiha Madara, the man who obtained Senju Hashirama's  powers. Two of the six paths are now one being.
Also, Madara Couldn't have been a clay since it require the chakra from the kyuubi.
Madara: My left eye is hungry for battle.
Madara: First I need to steal a 'substitute'.
Remember how Minato kept himself alive inside Naruto. Yet his body was dead. Some version of that jutsu seems very likely.
Tobi to kakashi: If I had to give an answer I'd say a complete body. (when asked what he really wants).
The only other plausible idea of someone else besides Madara would have to be someone from his Era with just as much power, and probably already instroduced. Albeit, could be briefly.
Kabutomaru: I expect nothing less from Uchiha Madara, and your “vessel” is unique.
Also, it's interesting how Tobi's mask switches places from the opening of the left to the right sometimes. (Could be on purpose to represent a constant changing “vessel”)
especially in the anime version 
Nevertheless, the last deductions I could make come from the following:
Madara: So, it finally happened (being summoned). It would appear that little brat Nagato managed to grow...
Why does Zetsu still call him Tobi btw?
The big questions to ask are, who is willing to go to such extent? who is that corrupt in character? who is old and experienced enough? (We have to remember that he is skilled enough to be confident against absolutely anyone, just like Orochimaru was. He posses the Sanju bloodline already, he has an understanding of all the Clans, their past too. He is even able to use Izanagi), Who knew Madara the best? And Who is strong enough? Only Madara fits all criteria, even though Hashirama and Izuna fit more than a few.


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## MaskedMan88 (Oct 14, 2011)

here is my theory...

WHY DOES MADARA KNOW SO MUCH ABOUT THE SAGE OF 6 PATHS... WHAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT LIVE THAT LONG.... A TAILED BEAST.

I THINK TOBI IS THE SPIRIT OF THE JUUBI...

The KYUUBI WAS DIVIDED YIN AND YANG...  

Maybe tobi is the yang chackra or something and thats why he wants to become complete...  idk just throwing it out there...  the spirit of the jubbi with zetsu like body... perhaps


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## kx11 (Oct 14, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I think that tobi is a seedling of madara, made from mokuton.
> After all, that is what the whole fight between him and hashirama was for, to acquire his DNA.
> 
> Madara "died" that day, but Tobi was born from it.
> ...




ah cool , who made that seedling from madara and turned it to what you call zetsu ?

your theory sounds good but it's got holes in them


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## Spiritnexus (Oct 15, 2011)

Although it would provide a twist in the story, I doubt very much that Tobi is Obito due to an age inconsistency. Tobi first appeared with the Kyuubi sixteen years ago, right when Naruto was born. At the time of the Third Shinobi World War, both Obito and Kakashi were thirteen years old. Kakashi is currently thirty years old and Obito would be too if he had survived. This means that Obito would of been fourteen years old at the time that he supposedly attacked Konoha with the Kyuubi. Within a year he would have to heal, train and change his beliefs before going toe to toe with Minato. It does not seem to add up right now.

If I had to guess, I think Izuna Uchiha is the man behind the mask.


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## Jeαnne (Oct 15, 2011)

holy shit...HOLY SHIT, i just thought of something, holy shit :0


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## WraithX959 (Oct 15, 2011)

Tobi is either a Madara-Zetsu clone or someone else entirely, who is being controlled by one of Madara genjutsu.


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## Skythe (Oct 15, 2011)

Timeline:

1) Valley of the end - Hashirama believes to have killed Madara but he survives in his original body via Iznagi. Evidence for this is that Edo Madara knows who Nagato is, who wouldn't have been born.

-- (time elapses)

2) Tobi vs Minato - At this stage this is Tobi, because he has all the relevant space time jutsus etc. Thus the real Madara has died at some point between here and meeting Pain.

Between those two points, I theorise that someone messed Madara up big time. I made a theory long back (in my sig) that The Fourth sealed one of Madara's eyes during the Kyuubi attack in combo with the Death God Jutsu, but that turned out to be wrong. However, I still suspect that in some act of defense, somebody sealed his left eye in a similar means to the Third sealing Orochimaru's Jutsus, and in an act of desperation he's abandoned his body and used a body-transfer style Jutsu as Oro did (perhaps Oro based his on Madara's) to ensure he wouldn't lose control of his eye(s) permanently.


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## jigen22 (Oct 15, 2011)

So here is my official theory...i'll try to make up a timeline as I go.

1. Madara in foresight decides to create a way for him to come back from the dead. He gets the actual Nagato...or a descendent of Nagato. Or just some random boy and names him Nagato. He starts the process for rinnegan in hope that the Nagato will bring him back. Nagato means ever lasting gate or some such. 

Everlasting gate from the dead....

2. Madara fights Harashima....perishes.

3. Obito gets crushed by a boulder and nearly dies...he is saved by Zetsu. Zetsu repairs his damaged parts with  his goo and bolts. 

4. Zetsu is the ultimate information gatherer. he has recorded many fights...conversations. Eaten many shinobi. He knows a ton about Madara. 

5. Obito says "hey." I'm gonna be Madara now. Wars are meaningless. they got me killed pretty much and probably Rin too. "Lets end all wars man."

6. But first....lets bring Rin back from the dead...With Gedo Mazo and some magical Rinnegan sharigan combination. It can be done. Then Obito and Rin can live in perpetual peace. 

This is how it's gonna turn out more or less.


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## Escargon (Oct 15, 2011)

Lol thats Madara WITH the outfit VS Senju.

Haha oh wow. He pretty much died VS Senju.

He propably switches body time to time, like that with Kisame, or he just growed long hair.

He got Madaras half face but very old and wrinkled. Note that its not Izunas eyes.

Hes made of Zetsu. Doesnt mean hes Zetsu, just that hes made of it. Pretty much like "hi im made of coca cola but im not that coca cola dragon dude, and im blue not brown.."

He got exactly the same hairstyle as Obito but hes too old and evil.

But then, Kishimoto ruins everything with, how the F could Madara know about Nagato? Well i guess the man is a voodoo guy that switches bodies and get the mind of them. Or wth?

That means, it must be.. Tsunades brother. Just kidding.. i think.


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## Yasaka Magatama (Oct 15, 2011)

I don't know what to THINK after reading the chapter, as if I got mindfucked.   I guess that is Part of Madara, other than that I really dont know.   His entrance was totally awesome, the way he blasted the coffin. He stood like a boss and got everyone shocked.


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## Perverted King (Oct 15, 2011)

Have they ever shown Madara's/Tobi's eye while he teleports?


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## AndreMB (Oct 15, 2011)

Skythe said:


> Timeline:
> 
> 1) Valley of the end - Hashirama believes to have killed Madara but he survives in his original body via Iznagi. Evidence for this is that Edo Madara knows who Nagato is, who wouldn't have been born.
> 
> ...



But, that would mean his soul isn't dead and can't be called back to his body.


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## Alpha is Fatal (Oct 15, 2011)

Tobi is Uchiha Madara. Uchiha Madara is Uchiha Madara. 

This is my theory:

Tobi can not be anyone else but Uchiha Madara.

He can't be Obito. When Madara (Tobi) was fighting Minato he was old. He could not of been Obito because Obito was just a kid. As well as when Madara (Tobi) told Itachi to help him destroy the Uchiha Clan. If he was Obito he would be but a kid. Plus, why would Obito be evil? How could he know so much about Sasuke and Itachi and everything thats going on.. It would be impossible and wouldn't even help progress the storyline. The only person who would really be shocked to see it was Obito would be Kakashi...

Tobi can not be Madara's brother (Izuna Uchiha) because Madara took both his eyes. If Tobi was Izuna he would not have that Sharingan. Were would he of got it from? Surly not from Shisui because Danzo took one of his eyes and Itachi took the other.

He can't be Shisui because he is dead. His body was never found. Even Kabuto stated he could not locate it.

Who else could Tobi be? No one but Uchiha Madara. My theory is that after the fight between Madara and Hashirama, he was still alive. They never said he was dead. But they did say that he took some of Hashirama's DNA. I think he used that DNA or some kind of jutsu to later take possession of another body as his body was getting old. Kind of like some Orochimaru shit.

Now his mind is Madara but he is using someone else's body. We have seen pictures that show he is somewhat old, so he cant be using Obito's body. If so, he would be around the age of Kakashi.

This picture is before the fight with Konan.

Madara 

The only person I think he could be using is his brothers. I know his brother is as old as him, but like i said, he could be using a jutsu similar to that of Orochimaru's and is just using his appearance of when he was somewhat younger, or how he looked before he died..

If he isn't using his brothers body, then he could just be using some random persons body who was a Uchiha (or someone with a sharingan) with the power of the First Hokage's DNA or Zetsu's power OR possibly he made a clone of himself.

Either way, that person Tobi is Madara. I think that Tobi wanted Nagato to use Rinne-Tensei to bring his original body back to life. But that plan failed. As you can see he said "That was suppose to be for me".

gnored it

What Kabuto had summoned earlier was Uchiha Madara's original body and Tobi was surprised as to how he got his body.

Link removed

That is my theory and evidence. Now what im curious about now is how does Uchiha Madara know Nagato?

Link removed

He states that "Nagato has grown". And he also says that he "Gave Nagato the Rinnengan".

this one 

But there both from different Era's. How would he have gave him the Rinnengan?


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## son_michael (Oct 15, 2011)

Alpha is Fatal said:


> Tobi is Uchiha Madara. Uchiha Madara is Uchiha Madara.
> 
> This is my theory:
> 
> ...




It was said obito would have been about 15 or 16 during minato's fight so he could have been old enough to grow taller, if not there's always the possibility that zetsu remade obito's body to suit madara's needs(made him taller) 

explaining obito to be evil would be really simple

1. genjutsu on obito

2. obito's mind/soul is not in control

3.(unlikely) obito changed or was manipulated into believing he was wronged and he wants revenge.


Personally I think Madara needed an uchiha body, zetsu found obito's dead corpse and sharingan and then made all the preparations. Whether obito died or not is unknown. I suspect kishi would make him live since it creates drama between him and kakashi but its more reasonable to say he died and madara is just using his corpse and his sharingan.



btw tobi can't be Uchiha madara because uchiha madara's soul is in the edo tensei

so either Tobi is someone pretending to be him, he was genjutsu'd into believing he's him or somehow madara split his soul before he died and implanted it into obito or a zetsu clone


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## Alpha is Fatal (Oct 15, 2011)

Having Zetsu remake Obito's body to suit Madara's needs would be so pointless. I don't see that being a option. Just the way he spoke doesn't seem like it could be Obito. I just highly doubt that being a choice.


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## The Prodigy (Oct 15, 2011)

My theory is similar I actually posted it in a flame thread and it got deleted. I said it could be either Madara who combined the first Hokage's cells into himself using a jutsu quite like that of Orochimaru's, except on a much higher level. or. Izuna. 

Madara- Fighting Hashirama for the purpose of gaining his cell's to only fake his death later. It's been shown from brief glimpses that Madara did not die in his fight with Hashirama, but rather lived a seclusive life. 

Madara in my opinion could have created an identical version of himself, similar to how Zetsu was able to clone Neji, however. Madara also gave "Tobi" sharingan and combined him with jutsu similar to zetsu like S/T jutsu. Madara then either gave "Tobi" the Rinnegan to give to Nagato or gave it to him, himself. Madara could have possibly have wanted Nagato to use Rinne Tensei to revive Madara, so "Tobi" and Madara could combine back into one body. (as this would not only make both even stronger, but make Madara more knowledgeable). 

My theory on it being Izuna is speculation. I don't exactly believe "Tobi" because he is a liar. 

His brother was also considered to be as strong as Madara. Having Izuna's eyes removed could have simply made him weaker and giving him regular sharingan. Izuna could have made a deal with Madara as I don't exactly see even a loving brother just saying "This is my role, take my eyes." The deal would've been if you  give me your eyes, Madara would give him Hashirama's cells and the Rinnegan to "Tobi" to revive him.

 As Rinne Tensei doesn't make one a slave as shown by Nagato reviving the people he killed, whereas Edo Tensei makes those revived slaves to their controllers whim. 

Also please due keep in mind how little "Tobi" talks about Izuna probably because that is a topic he would rather stay away from. Another thing is how much Tobi's story contradicts Itachi's. ("Tobi" being the liar that he is could make this all the more plausible).

How Tobi's story contradicts Itachi's...

Tobi saying he had the strongest Chakra out of anyone, including Izuna. 
Itachi calling Izuna and Madara equals before EMS was brought into the story.
"Tobi" completely cuts Izuna out of the story aside from the "why would I take my brother's eyes." 
Both Madara and Izuna were equals in every way, but the only reason Madara would become leader is because he was older. Itachi saying Madara took his brother's eyes. "Tobi" saying Izuna gave him his eyes.   Itachi saying Madara/Tobi was the one behind the Kyuubi attack. "Tobi" saying the Kyuubi attack was a freak occurrence. As we now know "Tobi" lied about the Kyuubi's appearance, due to the evidence shown from the manga. 

This is why I believe the identity of "Tobi" could either be Madara or Izuna.


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## Alpha is Fatal (Oct 15, 2011)

Good theory, Prodigy94.


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## Hexa (Oct 15, 2011)

During the first chapter where Kabuto summons up the sixth coffin for Madara, there's a line from Kabuto which is interesting, I think.  The line has multiple ways to interpret it.  The most natural way of interpreting the line doesn't say much, but another way to look at the line definitely does:

"As expected of Uchiha Madara, your talent is exceptional"
"As expected of Uchiha Madara... though the vessel is different"
It was translated as "your talent is exceptional", but the line could also be read as "though the vessel is different".  So perhaps that's a subtle hint of Madara's condition.


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## Alpha is Fatal (Oct 15, 2011)

I know in my previous theory I stated that it was Uchiha Madara who was also Tobi, but I found reason to believe it is not.

In this picture, he reveals himself as Uchiha Madara to Kisame. So Kisame knows that Madara is still alive even though he is suppose to be dead.

this one 

Then in this picture, as Tobi, reveals to Kisame what his face looks like under the mask. He says its Uchiha Madara and Kisame said he would of never guessed.

I think he is not Uchiha Madara under the mask because if it was then Kisame COULD of guessed.. knowing that he wasn't dead as seen in the previous picture. I think he just continued to say "Uchiha Madara" so us fans wouldnt get any clues, just like Kabuto continues to call him Uchiha Madara.

I think his brother Izuna could be under the mask. We know Madara took his eyes but Izuna could of got his eyes from Uchiha Kagami.



I know he's not a important character but hell, its a theory.

It has to be one of them under that mask. Uchiha Madara or Uchiha Izuna.. and possibly still alive with the help of the First's DNA and Zetsu.


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## The Prodigy (Oct 15, 2011)

Alpha is Fatal said:


> I know in my previous theory I stated that it was Uchiha Madara who was also Tobi, but I found reason to believe it is not.
> 
> In this picture, he reveals himself as Uchiha Madara to Kisame. So Kisame knows that Madara is still alive even though he is suppose to be dead.
> 
> ...



In my opinion, it wasn't that Kisame didn't know, rather he was fooled by "Tobi" and how he presented himself. In Akatsuki "Tobi" presented himself as a happy go lucky guy with a fool's personality. Kisame said he couldn't have guessed because the Madara Uchiha he met before was seen as a mastermind, controlling even the fourth Mizukage; Yagura. 

Everyone in Akatsuki were fooled by the identity of "Tobi" except for a few; Nagato, Konan, Zetsu, and Itachi.


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## gershwin (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm confused. 
If Kabuto knew about Tobi *not being Madara* - Orochimaru knew about it too?


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 15, 2011)

gershvin said:


> I'm confused.
> If Kabuto knew about Tobi *not being Madara* - Orochimaru knew about it too?



I doubt Orochimaru knew.

Kabuto only knew because he was able to summon the real Madara.


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## Alpha is Fatal (Oct 15, 2011)

Kabuto has always been a sneaky bastard. Im sure there's a lot of things he knew that Orochimaru didn't know about. I can't wait til the next chapter comes out so we can maybe get some more hints as to who is behind that mask!


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## Yagura (Oct 15, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> I doubt Orochimaru knew.
> 
> Kabuto only knew because he was able to summon the real Madara.



.....


That doesn't add up, why would Kabuto search for a corpse of a man he knew was alive?


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## Saru (Oct 15, 2011)

Yagura said:


> .....
> 
> 
> That doesn't add up, why would Kabuto search for a corpse of a man he knew was alive?



He knew Jiraiya was dead. And Nagato. He's been keeping tabs, most likely. He is a former spy, after all, probably a genius (like half of the top-tier characters in the manga)...

He really is a sneaky bastard. It's what gave him that potential FV vibe pre-Shinobi War.


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## Yagura (Oct 15, 2011)

Viridium said:


> He knew Jiraiya was dead. And Nagato. He's been keeping tabs, most likely. He is a former spy, after all, probably a genius (like half of the top-tier characters in the manga)...
> 
> He really is a sneaky bastard. It's what gave him that potential FV vibe pre-Shinobi War.



Umm.

How does this relate to my point?


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## Saru (Oct 15, 2011)

Yagura said:


> Umm.
> 
> How does this relate to my point?



Because I'm saying that Kabuto is a super-genius who doesn't need to play by the rules of Orochimaru; he has gained plot-induced omniscience, or has just done his research.

Kabuto is supposed to be Orochimaru 2.0 (from my POV), so I think it's only natural for him to have surpassed his former superior in intelligence.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 15, 2011)

Yagura said:


> .....
> 
> 
> That doesn't add up, why would Kabuto search for a corpse of a man he knew was alive?



What makes you think it was a corpse he found that provided the genetic material?


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## Saru (Oct 15, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> What makes you think it was a corpse he found that provided the genetic material?



Such an excellent point. It would be more plausible if Kabuto concluded this upon finding an artefact from Madara's past/researching his past, rather than finding out through an unexplained, plot-driven intelligence boost.


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## Penance (Oct 15, 2011)

son_michael said:


> It was said obito would have been about 15 or 16 during minato's fight so he could have been old enough to grow taller, if not there's always the possibility that zetsu remade obito's body to suit madara's needs(made him taller)
> 
> explaining obito to be evil would be really simple
> 
> ...



Kakashi grew by, like, A LOT between gaiden and the 9 tails attack...


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## Yagura (Oct 15, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> What makes you think it was a corpse he found that provided the genetic material?



I never said that. I said that is what he would look for first.  



Viridium said:


> Because I'm saying that Kabuto is a super-genius who doesn't need to play by the rules of Orochimaru; he has gained plot-induced omniscience, or has just done his research.
> 
> Kabuto is supposed to be Orochimaru 2.0 (from my POV), so I think it's only natural for him to have surpassed his former superior in intelligence.



Um, okay. I'll I said to that affect was that Kabuto knew Madara was alive...


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## Superstars (Oct 15, 2011)

Tobi is Madara.


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## HakuGaara (Oct 15, 2011)

Tobi is part Madara obviously.

Before Edo Madara found out that he was resurrected by Edo Tensai, he assumed that he was resurrected by Nagato. This fits in line perfectly with Tobi Madara's line about how Nagato was supposed to have used Rinne Tensei on him instead of Konoha. They're the same person.

This also explains why Tobi Madara doesn't seem to have a real body (made of plant stuff, can become intangible etc.). His real one got destroyed when he died.


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## son_michael (Oct 15, 2011)

Penance said:


> Kakashi grew by, like, A LOT between gaiden and the 9 tails attack...



don't tell me, tell them


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## jso (Oct 15, 2011)

Yagura said:


> .....
> 
> 
> That doesn't add up, why would Kabuto search for a corpse of a man he knew was alive?


"If Madara is alive, who was the corpse left behind after VOTE?"

Not an odd train of thought to follow considering Kabuto is able to find out potentially a lot by robbing one notorious grave.


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## HashiraMadara (Oct 16, 2011)

I have several theories, But before i post them, i'd like to say that i would LIKE for tobi to be a part of madara that didn't die and was doing all this to achieve a perfect "complete" body, meaning getting all this power before placing his latent chakra back into his former body.


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## Yagura (Oct 16, 2011)

jso said:


> "If Madara is alive, who was the corpse left behind after VOTE?"
> 
> Not an odd train of thought to follow considering Kabuto is able to find out potentially a lot by robbing one notorious grave.



If that were true, than a lot of other people would have thought the same thing, not just Kabuto.


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## Saru (Oct 16, 2011)

HakuGaara said:


> Tobi is part Madara obviously.
> 
> Before Edo Madara found out that he was resurrected by Edo Tensai, he assumed that he was resurrected by Nagato. This fits in line perfectly with Tobi Madara's line about how Nagato was supposed to have used Rinne Tensei on him instead of Konoha. They're the same person.
> 
> This also explains why Tobi Madara doesn't seem to have a real body (made of plant stuff, can become intangible etc.). His real one got destroyed when he died.



A double meaning... ?

But... How do you explain the soul being bound to Madara's body? Is the theory incomplete? That doesn't sound like a confirmation that they're the same character so much as confirmation that Madara and Tobi are connected in some way.

I don't know if anyone's pointed this out, but Madara referred to Nagato as a brat last chapter. Similarly, Tobi refers Naruto as a brat when discussing the results of the Nagato's invasion with Zetsu. Is this a character trait, perhaps? Or a subtle hint?



Are there any translators that can compare the statements above? Are they both using the term "brat", or just using something that has a more general meaning?


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## jso (Oct 16, 2011)

Yagura said:


> If that were true, than a lot of other people would have thought the same thing, not just Kabuto.



They can think all they want, without Edo Tensei it's a useless thought.


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## TheVermin (Oct 16, 2011)

I am going with the theory that Madara is Tobi, but perhaps a different incarnation of Madara. It would make perfect sense given Tobi's presented abilities


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## Yagura (Oct 16, 2011)

jso said:


> They can think all they want, without Edo Tensei it's a useless thought.



Look for the corpse to see if he is actually dead? 

But no, I'm pretty most people would have just assumed Madara was using his original body, Kabuto included, as they would have no reason to believe other wise. 

And to be clear, I doubt Tobi would leave Madara's corpse laying around, for anyone to come and find, either.


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## Rama (Oct 16, 2011)

There's something Ive always wondered.

Does Kabuto know who Tobi is?

or 

He just knows he isn't the real Madara


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 16, 2011)

Hashirama said:


> There's something Ive always wondered.
> 
> Does Kabuto know who Tobi is?
> 
> ...



Everything thus far has pointed to him only knowing that Tobi isn't Madara.


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## Escargon (Oct 16, 2011)

Flashback: Obito gets crushed.

Obito turns into a dead white Zetsu.

Real Obito is saved. Tobi shows up and talknojutsu him to be the new Madara.

BTW, this is only a theory. 

Theory.

Th.


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## HashiraMadara (Oct 16, 2011)

Kagami would be a perfect shoe-in for me, if i wasn't holding out for tobi being a fragment of Madara that lived on in order to ressurect him.

These are a few thoughts of mine, and please go easy on me i'm a newb to this place

Kagami uchiha
former teammate to danzo shimura

Danzo leader of root anbu, kagami somehow "disappears"
Danzo steals shisui uchiha's Mangekyo sharingan, and implants it into kagami in order to cause the nine tails attack and disrupt village authority, using shisui's mangekyo, kagami controls the kyuubi and causes the attack(?),  Danzo and the "elders" convieniently blame the uchiha for such an attack, and order itachi to wipe out the clan, kagami, using kotoamatsukami persuades itachi to aid him in destroying the clan, making itachi think it was his mission.
"Madara" states to danzo later on, "i havent seen you since the uchiha massacre"... Coincidence? tobi sure knows alot about the secret meetings of the leaf's elders, and danzo didn't seem to show any surprise about him popping up out of nowhere.

Danzo at some point either, transplanted shisui's eye back into himself and either he or kagami use kotoamatsukami on itachi, i'm willing to consider either because if danzo was experimenting with hashirama's dna, he may have known all along about tobi doing the same.

"Madara"  is sought out by itachi because itachi's mangekyo could see shisui's chakra color in his transplated eye which kagami had,
Shisui besides being able to use kotoamatsukami was referred to as "shisui" of the shunshin", it's not a far stretch to think that another of his mangekyo techniques is space-time migration, and as far as his intangibity, (it's possible this "madara" who claims to have hashirama senju's DNA would be able to frequently use a mass kotoamatsukami whoever he fights with,*sounds like hogwash sorta*) which also may explain his mugen tsukuyomi plan, itachi had shisui's left eye implanted in the crow, this "madara" only uses techniques with his right eye, while his other sharingan could just be a stock eye from all the dead uchiha he helped to conspire against with danzo and his former teammates hotaru and komura..

It's been implied that kotoamatsukami is a most powerful and yet subtle genjutsu, unlike tsukuyomi where you KNOW you're in a genjutsu but can't help yourself. 

So my theory is, this "madara" is an anbu root member, named kagami uchiha, which is why he's aged yet doesn't look 110+ years old, wears a mask all the time, and even has a code name, Tobi and now that danzo and his partnership with kagami being the instigator for akatsuki in order to give danzo another chance at crushing the leaf, after now, that his and danzo's partnership is over, with all the skilled shinobi that he's come across he has a wealth of  resources, Rinnegan, Zetsu, plenty of hideouts, among other things.

Orochimaru was already experimenting with danzo using hashirama's DNA, it's not impossible he did the same with kagami, which is why orochimaru knows so much about his secrets, which tobi doesn't seem to have let zetsu know, since he would basically be breaking his tough guy image and let zetsu know that he's been leaking secrets of zetsu's abilities plus secretly collaborating with orochimaru, who WAS a traitor to the akatsuki and attacked a well respected member, itachi.

This is all merely speculation, and i just wanted to toss out a well thought out idea

If you look closely at the shape of his eyes, and the folds around them, they do resemble madara's, and kagami clearly has a similar haircut to tobi..

Or he could really be madara, i'm really hoping he is, there was a great theory as to why i think it's possible and if it's not against the rules, i'd like to post the link to it.

Any arguments? btw i was planning on backing this up with story boards but didn't feel like it at the time, not sure how to post them anyways


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## Samehada (Oct 16, 2011)

*I laughed at the thousands who insisted Kisame died fighting Killer Bee.

I laughed at the thousands who insisted Danzou would not have a Sharingan.

And now I am laughing at the thousands who insisted Tobi was Madara.*

You know, im starting to jump into the "Izuna" bandwagon...I haven't actually decided yet, but there is a nice possibility Tobi = Izuna...  maybe! Just maybe!


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## The Red Skull (Oct 16, 2011)

*Your theories on Tobi*

I think he is either Izuna, a clone, or some sort of secret son.


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## Fatstogey (Oct 16, 2011)

Need to put Kagami on the list.

And id say Izuna possibly as well.

Its one of the 3.

Izuna
Madara split
Kagami

I think its Kagami and hes working with madara.


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## Googleplex (Oct 16, 2011)

Hexa said:


> During the first chapter where Kabuto summons up the sixth coffin for Madara, there's a line from Kabuto which is interesting, I think.  The line has multiple ways to interpret it.  The most natural way of interpreting the line doesn't say much, but another way to look at the line definitely does:
> 
> "As expected of Uchiha Madara, your talent is exceptional"
> "As expected of Uchiha Madara... though the vessel is different"
> It was translated as "your talent is exceptional", but the line could also be read as "though the vessel is different".  So perhaps that's a subtle hint of Madara's condition.


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## SensibleJohnSmith (Oct 16, 2011)

While some people would feel vindicated that Tobi was indeed a Madara clone, I feel that more would feel cheated if that where the case. I mean, that's some dues ex machina stuff there. I don't know how kishi will handle it, but if it turns out Madara pulled the old muu switcharoo (which is something that was revealed is possible a chapter ago) I know I will be pissed. 

Onoki quickly realized that muu had split when he saw him on the hill, funny how he didn't jump to that conclusion with Madara... But I digress...

Has soul splitting (like what people are saying Madara did) ever happened before in the manga? Even so, you would think if it were possible, that he couldn't be edo'ed while part of the soul(Tobi) remained alive...


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## son_michael (Oct 16, 2011)

SensibleJohnSmith said:


> While some people would feel vindicated that Tobi was indeed a Madara clone, I feel that more would feel cheated if that where the case. I mean, that's some dues ex machina stuff there. I don't know how kishi will handle it, but if it turns out Madara pulled the old muu switcharoo (which is something that was revealed is possible a chapter ago) I know I will be pissed.
> 
> Onoki quickly realized that muu had split when he saw him on the hill, funny how he didn't jump to that conclusion with Madara... But I digress...
> 
> Has soul splitting (like what people are saying Madara did) ever happened before in the manga? Even so, you would think if it were possible, that he couldn't be edo'ed while part of the soul(Tobi) remained alive...




Its a far fetched theory, everyone knows Tobi is somebody else. They just don't want to admit it because the possibility of it being obito opens up and they can't bear that even being possible. 

Like you said, if it really was soul splitting it would have been pulled out of know where and make no sense


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## RaptorJesusDesu (Oct 16, 2011)

Hear me out boys.

IMO it's not Kagami. Kagami is just too much of a side character right now.  Same with Izuna, honestly, although I would put him in 2nd place.  

I think atm it's most likely Uchiha Shisui.



First of all, Tobi first appears with only one eye. We know that Shisui, if he was alive, would have to be scrounging for eyes because he gave them both away (1 to Danzo, 1 to Itachi). But these were his Mangekyo eyes. And we all know what that means. All you need are new sharingan eyes, and poof, you get Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. So if Shisui was able to obtain a single sharingan, he would have EMS.

Second, read the wiki. They make it a huge point that Shisui's body completely disappeared, no DNA evidence, Kabuto can't find him to use Edo Tensei. Which is strange when you consider his body was supposedly "found in a river" and all that. Which either means that Shisui/Itachi did a really good job hiding his body... or he's just not dead.

Third, Shisui was known as Shunshin no Shisui, aka Shisui the bodyflicker, Shisui the teleporter. Why was it at all important that we know that? While it's stated that Tobi uses his eye to teleport most of the time and he undeniably does have dimensional powers, it would still kind of go with it wouldn't it.  In fact, given that Shisui is an enormously powerful genjutsu user, it would be no small feat for him to simply trick you into believing you were "phasing" through him with your attacks when in fact he was simply moving incredibly fast.  

Fourth, Shisui's famous Mangekyou power, Kotamatsukami, is pretty much the most powerful mind control technique in the entire Narutoverse.  Specifically it makes people get mind controlled and not even notice, believe that they're doing what they want.  What did Madara do? He mind controlled the Mizukage. He manipulates everyone around him to do what he wants, and has them think that they're doing what they want (Pain/Akatsuki, Sasuke). Madara's Moon plan is what? A plan for MASS MIND CONTROL that everyone will be oblivious to.

Fifth, the hair matches. There are only a handful of characters whose hair works: Obito, Shisui, Kagami. And I'm really leaning away from Obito or Kagami.

Sixth: his death was just fishy. Danzo steals one of his eyes... so he decides to meet with Itachi, give him his eye and let Itachi kill him so he can achieve Mangekyou too? WTF logic is that?  Itachi claims to have killed Shisui to Sasuke, but we all know Itachi was trying to make Sasuke hate his guts.  The situation is a mystery, and I think there is a reason for that.

More like this: Shisui had been ordered by the Konoha Military Police AKA the Uchiha Clan to spy on his best friend... and he sided with Itachi.  Danzo figures this out because he has eyes everywhere, fucks up Shisui and steals an eye.  The story gets hazy from here, but we might surmise that Shisui decided to disappear to escape dealing with the Uchiha clan (until their massacre, which he participates in after betraying them with Itachi). 

I think it's important to note that after having stolen Shisui's eye, Danzou officially had the power to manipulate almost any character (and the eye could remain hidden the entire time). It's quite possible he could've even manipulated Itachi into massacring the village (and making him believe it was his choice), using Shisui's eye.  In fact, he could've convinced the 3rd Hokage to approve it too, which makes a lot of sense when you consider how out-of-character it seemed that Sarutobi allowed the Uchiha Massacre.  It seems entirely against his entire Nindo/Will of Fire to make such a calculated and cold decision.  

Likewise, if Tobi=Shisui, he could do the same thing to Sasuke in making him attack the village (but believe he's doing it for his own reasons), even though readers logically would've EXPECTED Sasuke to follow his brother's wishes to protect the village.  

Since either Shisui or the real Madara participated in the Uchiha Massacre, obtaining another Sharingan would have been no problem at all. As we've seen, even a child medic-nin can transplant a sharingan from person to person.

The only hole, I think, is that Shisui was supposed to be a really good guy, just like Itachi. He could've gotten away with everything else using Mangekyou and whatever.  But if there's one thing true in Naruto, it's that evil characters often start out good and then get corrupted by various traumatic experiences.  Not a stretch to believe Shisui went through some of that and came out a little insane/evil.  

*We have never seen Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan design despite the fact that he uses it all the time. We know what Madara's EMS looks like from flashbacks, so if it was him, obviously they wouldn't have cared to show it. But clearly they are trying to keep the shape of it a secret as it would tell you exactly which Sharingans were used to create it.*

Finally though, we do know that Madara survived the V.O.T.E because we have 100% confirmation he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato.  However he must have died sometime after that, maybe even of natural causes.  After doing so it's quite possible that he passed his project on to Shisui and told him to take up his identity.  

Why does this make sense?  Madara had only one eye after the V.O.T.E because he used Izanagi to survive.  When Madara died, he could have given his only eye to the eyeless Shisui, possibly giving Shisui the power of 3 different Mangekyou sharingans (Izuna's, Madara's, and his own). As we've seen, people resurrected by Edo Tensei have all of their powers EVEN if their physical eye is still living in another person (dead Itachi has his eyes and Mangekyou even though his REAL eyes are obviously in Sasuke's head)

Anyway that's my best guess atm.


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## Undead (Oct 16, 2011)

*Madara & Tobi like Kami & Piccolo?*

It would be interesting if Madara & Tobi are like Kami & Piccolo: Split into two beings, where they can sense what their other half is feeling and going through, etc etc. And at some point they merge and become one, becoming complete.


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## ovanz (Oct 16, 2011)

That will be ripping off dragon ball z too much, so.. yeah it might happen.


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## Jizznificent (Oct 16, 2011)

is this a spoiler!?


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## Undead (Oct 16, 2011)

From what I recall, only Kami could sense Piccolo. Not the other way around. So maybe only Madara will feel Tobi's presence. That way it'll keep Tobi from finding out for a while. That is if this concept is what Kishi's going for...


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## falsepod (Oct 16, 2011)

Obito. That is all.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Oct 16, 2011)

Are we supposed to post complete theories in here or just small thoughts?

I could post a theory here, but if it would just stretch this thread unnecessarily i will open a new thread.


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## Fatstogey (Oct 16, 2011)

RaptorJesusDesu said:


> Hear me out boys.
> 
> IMO it's not Kagami. Kagami is just too much of a side character right now.  Same with Izuna, honestly, although I would put him in 2nd place.
> 
> ...


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## Penance (Oct 16, 2011)

*IF YOU'RE LISTENING, KISHI*   You know what to do...


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## Convicted playa (Oct 16, 2011)

I agree with most besides the kill edo madara part because tobi was shocked to see edo madara so he could not have had it in his plan .


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## Shikamaru Nara (Oct 16, 2011)

*Tobi is a Madara/Zetsu/Obito hybrid*

Well then let's get started 

First, hi all.

You could call this is an incomplete theory because i still need more infos about Madaras age and the general timeline.Otherwise, I don't know how to explain how he knows of Nagato without being older than 100 and still look young as an EdoTensei, since he was revived how he died.

In this chapter, the real Uchiha Madara was revived via EdoTensei.But how is that possible?A person can only be revived if the soul of this person is in the pure world.
But wasn't Tobi supposed to be Madara?And what has Nagato to do with this?

I think i know what happened back then.

Let me begin here:


That was the chapter, where Tobi explains the truth about Itachi and how he met him.

In the flashback, we can see Itachi talking to a masked man that is said to be Madara. This time with long hairs, just like the real Madara.

The second time we saw a long haired man in the past introducing himself as Uchiha Madara was here:

*Spoiler*: __ 








We can see there, a long-haired man with a Sharingan that introduces himself as Uchiha Madara to Kisame.

Right before the war was about to start, Tobi took off his mask in front of Kisame, who obviously knew the face that was beneath that mask and called him first Uchiha Madara and then switched to Mizukage-sama.He called him Mizukage, because he, Uchiha Madara, was the one who controlled the current Mizukage of that time, Yagura.

That means, Tobi looks exactly like the long-haired man(Madara) Kisame talked to in the flashback.
And that man, Madara, was the one who talked to Itachi aswell.

At this point we can assume two things:

1)Itachi and Kisame talked with the same person.
2)Tobi and Madara look alike.

But how is it possible that they both look the same?Why did he change his appearence?


I assume that all started in the past.

After Madara left the village he was filled with hate against both, the Senju and the Uchiha. Madara knew the only way to get strong enough to take revenge on all those people he hated and become the most powerfull being, was to get access to Senju Hashiramas abillities and combine them with his own, namely become a Rikudou.So he waited and prepared himself to fight Hasirama.

Some people maybe say, if all he wanted was Hashirama powers, he also could've killed Hashirama and then take his powers.But this way, everyone would know Madara Uchiha is still alive and they maybe would try to find him and kill him.Madara faked his death so he had enough time to experiment with Hasiramas cells he gained in that battle, and leaving the world without anyone left who would think of him being alive.

But to accomplish that goal, he had to pay a high price.His injuries where fatal, he was weakened.

Madara used the time he had to experiment with the cells he gained in his fight against Hashirama.He cultivated Hashiramas cells.As we know, the outcome of that, is this:

A copy of Hashirama without consciousness.

His experiments continued to the point where he tried to combine his Uchiha powers with Senju powers.The outcome of that is:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Zetsu*​



Zetsu has two body halfs.One is black and the other half is white.As we know, black and white stands for Yin and Yang.The Uchiha are Yin related and the Senju are Yang related.

Uchiha have strong spiritual energy and eye powers=Yin

Senju have a strong body and powerfull chakra=Yang


Black Zetsu is the more serious part of Zetsu without a real face.He probably has the mind and memorys of Madara.Madara maybe transfered some of his spritual energy into him.That's maybe the reason why Black Zetsu has no real face because spiritual energy=Yin has no physical appearence or form.

*I think that Black Zetsu contains more of Madaras spiritual energy and less of Hashiramas cells.*

White Zetsu is the exact opposite.He has a clumsy personality and you could aswell consider him as peacefull and kind.He's more like a little child.White Zetsu is able to copy a person perfectly even down to the chakra.His face has some similarity with Hasiramas.

I fused White Zetsus and Hashiramas face to make it more clear.I know it's crappy but mehIf someone has better pics of their faces pls post them!I could use them for a better pic.)

*Spoiler*: __ 








*I think that Zetsu contains more of Hashiramas cells and less of Madaras spritual energy.*


Zetsu is usefull, but not what we could call a perfect combination of Senju and Uchiha powers.The powers of those clans are so different that the moment Madara tried to combine them, they splitted equally like Yin and Yang.



Black half with a white dot=More of Madaras spiritual energy, less Hashiramas cells.

White half with black dot=More Hashirama cells, less Madaras spiritual energy.

Thats what i think is Zetsu.


Anyways, he continued with his experiments, but Madaras time slowly ran out.Meanwhile, Madara knew that he would need strong followers to help him accomplish his goal.His next step was creating Akatsuki.He infiltrated Kirigakure and took control of their leader, the Fourth Mizukage Yagura.The time the fourth Mizukage was the leader, the village became known as the "Village of the Bloody Mist".Students wishing to move on into the ranks of the ninja would be pitted against each other in one-on-one duels to the death.

Behind all that was Madara who controlled Yagura and forced him to do this.This was Madaras way to create strong Shinobi he could control with the darkness they would carry inside after killing so many other students, and use them for his plans.That was the beginning of Akatsuki.He then was forced to leave Kirigakure because people found out the Mizukage was being controlled.



During that time, he continued his research and finally had a success.This time, he used an Uchiha body and added Hashiramas cells to combine Uchiha and Senju powers.

That Uchiha body, was no other than Uchiha Obitos.You now may start laughing now........

If you're done with that, we can continue:

He was finally able to combine the physical energy and chakra of a Senju with the eye power and spiritual energy of an Uchiha.The outcome of that is the Tobi we know now.

You could say at that point, there were two Madaras.

1)The real Uchiha Madara
2)Uchiha Obitos body with Madaras mind and powered with Hashiramas cells via Zetsu

If you think you were successfull with your experiment, what is the first thing you do?

Exactly, you test it.
The day of Narutos birth, Madara send Tobi to Konoha as a test.He knew the current host of the Kyuubi will be weakened while giving birth to a child.He used that opportunity to test how strong Tobi is and made it look like he was trying to destroy Konoha.If Tobi succeds in destroying Konoha was not important at that point.He simply wanted to know what Tobi is capable of and if he could trust in his abilities for the future.

I'm this far with my theory.I will edit it with the upcoming chapters.
Hope you will read it


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## Penance (Oct 16, 2011)

> Obito. That is all.



^................


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## Rama (Oct 16, 2011)

Well I gotta say good job in this theory but still I don't know why you fit Obito to this, atleast you don't think it's Obito's Mind and is still Madara's mind.  Still I know your theory is lacking since you don't have any Nagato reference there so Ill wait till is finished.


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## RaptorJesusDesu (Oct 16, 2011)

Fatstogey said:


> Nope.  To get EMS the eyes have to be given.  Its why madara and sasuke are the only 2 to have EMS.  Itachi even stated that others tried and failed.  its because they greedily took their brothers eyes.  The point is sacrifice.  If the brother doesnt willingly give them?  you dont get ems.
> 
> Tobi only shows 1 eye.  He seemed to use izanagi.  And didnt lose his kamui eye.  So he must have had another eye under there you just dont see it.   Probably his fodder izanagi eeyes.  CAuse of all the sharingan he had, they arent all the same power levels.   But any one can be used for izanagi.
> 
> ...



I'll try my best to respond to everything:

-If the real Madara gave his eye to Shisui as I speculated, then it would be a willing transfer.

-Itachi clearly got his Mangekyou after the Shisui situation, but it doesn't mean he had to kill him.  Kakashi didn't kill Obito, he was simply traumatized by his death (I am assuming this is why Kakashi has a mangekyou, unless he somehow secretly killed a friend during the timeskip).  It's a stretch, but perhaps powerful genjutsu could be used to simulate the effects of a friend's traumatic death (after all, the mangekyou isn't powered by stealing somebody's soul or something, it's more about the emotional involvement), and perhaps this is how Itachi got his mangekyou. 

-"If Shisui wanted to kill the village, why not keep his eyes and do it?" Well if he wanted to do ANYTHING, why not keep his eye and do it?  My point was that his death makes zero sense in the first place.  Danzo forcibly removed one eye, most likely for tailing Itachi under Uchiha orders.  Then he gives his other eye to Itachi, who was in the process of planning to destroy the village.  What interaction could possibly merit that transfer?  Did he think Itachi was going to protect the Uchiha, or that he was going to destroy them? Honestly I think this is the most compelling mystery related to Shisui's role.

-You say he couldn't have been using Kotoamatsukami on Mifune, but maybe he was simply using a shittier version (because it's Danzo)? Similar to how Sasuke, with his lesser mastery, uses a shittier version of Tsukiyomi.

-Finally he was described as being "like Naruto," yes, but so was Nagato and he was ultimately corrupted.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Oct 16, 2011)

Hashirama said:


> Well I gotta say good job in this theory but still I don't know why you fit Obito to this, atleast you don't think it's Obito's Mind and is still Madara's mind.  Still I know your theory is lacking since you don't have any Nagato reference there so Ill wait till is finished.


Thanks

I think Tobi has a part of Obito or at least his Sharingan because of the obvious similarities of Kakashis and Tobis S/T Jutsus.

I know i didn't include Nagato in this theory.But i can say some things for sure:

Madara must have lived a long live to know Nagato and his Rinnegan powers.The only question is, how was he able to prolong his live, and how he can look so young as an EdoTensei summon, although they get summoned how they died.

I have some ideas how he could've done that. Maybe it's the new power born with the EMS.But i was not willing to go that far without more infos about the EMS.

Maybe he even added some of Hashiramas cells onto himself and gained more lifeforce.I'll just wait with that till the next chapter is out.

Maybe we have more infos that fit into my theory, or it will be completely disproved.Or none of that xD


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## Rama (Oct 16, 2011)

Well I hope Madara doesn't give the Alliance the silent treatment, or we could atleast hear his toughts.  Every little Madara says will be taken into detail in this upcoming chapter and I look foward to that.


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## Sennin of Hardwork (Oct 16, 2011)

I don't know either. My bets are on Izuna or Kagami.



Icegaze said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This should be the Telegram's pic.


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## The Red Skull (Oct 17, 2011)

I am telling you guys it's edo Izuna!!!


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## Palpatine (Oct 17, 2011)

At this point I'm thinking either:

Izuna Uchiha
Madara's son
An imperfect clone of Madara or the Sage created through unknown means.
Or lastly Zetsu, who's been trolling us the whole time.


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## hellohi (Oct 17, 2011)

Part Madara, he is Madara in some way.

Look at their damn eyes, has everyone been passing that up? It's obvious. Lol Obito, no.


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## Jesus (Oct 17, 2011)

Tobi is a Zetsu clone of Madara, as I predicted long ago.


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## Escargon (Oct 17, 2011)

I am not saying that youre wrong but how could Zetsu-Madara stop a blade like that while the other Zetsu-clones gets wtfpwned? =D


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## blacksword (Oct 17, 2011)

> Tobi is a Zetsu clone of Madara, as I predicted long ago.


so clone is stronger than original now? What kind of uber clone is that?


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## Grape (Oct 17, 2011)

Tobi is Madaras younger brother.

He stole his eyes back from Madara after his defeat.

Yup yup.


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## Madara of the 6 paths (Oct 17, 2011)

SO 

-"Real" Madara was alive long enough to know of Nagato. He obviously referred to nagatos rinne tensei when he said he managed to grow.

-Zetsu copies a person in looks and abilities but is weaker. That could be what tobi-madara ment with he is a shell of his former self, he could be a more advanced zetsu. That may explain why he uses his six paths of pain and is so keen on getting so many sharingans and relying on his intangability and izanagi.

-We saw that tobi had zetsu like liquid come out of his arm.

This means that Tobi could be a zetsu clone with the will, intelligence and expertise of real madara before he died but didnt get his strength or EMS.

Or madara could just be the popular kagami. 

Its not izuna because izuna was peaceful and he was shown to have died. It'll just be bad story telling if izuna is tobi because you are just manipulating the reader by showing someone who has died that is actually alive. That would be a lazy way of keeping a secret and we know kishi is above that.


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## The Strider (Oct 17, 2011)

Hmm, remember this page?
here
The "man behind the mask" said: "I can't believe nagato used his rinne tensei like that. It's supposed to be for me".

Now Rinne tensei is the power of 7th path of pain.
It's explained by Konan:here
It has the power to revive the dead:here

So for what reason did the "man behind the mask" need this powerful jutsu?
Since he could have just used the Edo tensei to summon the dead(unless they were sealed away or there wouldn't be enough DNA).

now "the man behind the mask" claims to be Madara Uchiha, but is he really?
according to the latest chapter, the person in the coffin is Madara uchiha:here

So what could this mean? can there be two madara uchihas?

Well I believe there can, It's said Madara uchiha was the first to find out the last technique of the Sharingan by gaining the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, 
Now what could this technique be? Well I believe it to be a Time and Space controlling technique, which he used to escape the death.

I believe he split his body in half, maybe this wasn't the technique he learned by reaching the the eternal mangekyo sharingan, but the technique he had copied from Muu, the second tsuchikage, this would be possible since they might have lived in the same time, at least Onoki is said to be living when madara was known in the ninja world: here
So it's entirely possible.

Now how did he survive this long? well i believe when he split his body, he used the eternal mangekyo sharingan's technique to perform a time warp with the 2nd halve, "the man behind the mask"
I believe he warped about past the era of 2nd and 3rd hokages, and when he had finally warped, he decided to obtain the power of rinne tensei by giving Nagato the power of rinnegan, for the sake of reviving the 1st halve when the time is complete, however this plan was ruined by nagato dying.

So the first halve was obtained by Kabuto, and he used this to threaten the man behind the mask.

Now i strongly believe i'm right, the man behind the mask even said this:"The wounds of my first battle with the first hokage,Hashirama were too deep... Right now I'm powerless.
I am nothing more than an empty shell of my former self"

I am nothing but an empty shell of my former self?
so is the reason he hasn't used the mangekyo sharingan at all because he is only half of his former self?

now the first halve knew nagato, how could he if they lived in different generation? well I believe that though Madara had split his body, the halves are connected, therefore they both would know what the other has seen/done/said etc...

So why didn't "Man behind the mask" use Nagato's rinne tensei earlier to bring back the first halve?

well I believe it's for two reasons, first he needed someone to be fused with gedo mazo, which was nagato, so they could seal the tailed beasts, second, the techinique would have probably killed nagato, which would have had a great damage in his plan, however, as any other villain, he had to get a back up plan, or person to fuse with gedo mazo, which would be in this case Sasuke. in the first link I posted, he also said this:"I don't plan to fuse him(Sasuke) with Gedo Mazo for a while"

So he needed Nagato alive as long as he would obtain Sasuke's control, however when he did, Nagato betrayed him and died. 

So why didn't he use the edo tensei? Well because of the other part or him would be a puppet of the one who summoned the first halve, and I doubt they could fuse together, because the summoned body always returns to the summoned form, so they would have rejected each other.

well this was my "more-than-speculation-less-than-theory" Theory.


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## MihaiJ (Oct 17, 2011)

Obito.. Yeaaa


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## Shikamaru Nara (Oct 17, 2011)

Escargon said:


> I am not saying that youre wrong but how could Zetsu-Madara stop a blade like that while the other Zetsu-clones gets wtfpwned? =D


You mean my theory or someone elses?


----------



## Saru (Oct 17, 2011)

Sarutobi Asuma said:


> It would be interesting if Madara & Tobi are like Kami & Piccolo: Split into two beings, where they can sense what their other half is feeling and going through, etc etc. And at some point they merge and become one, becoming complete.



I seriously considered this. Why did Itachi have to compare Tobi to Naruto?


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## Nep Nep (Oct 18, 2011)

Madara of the 6 paths said:


> SO
> 
> -"Real" Madara was alive long enough to know of Nagato. He obviously referred to nagatos rinne tensei when he said he managed to grow.
> 
> ...



Yes Izuna is shown to be dead.... By Tobi while he spoon feeds lies to Sasuke >_> so no seeing him dead that way is not concrete proof. Tobi lies normally and he reveals this while talking to Sasuke who he lies to the whole time only telling the truth on parts that would aid him and lying where the stories would hurt him.


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## koohiinin (Oct 18, 2011)

Whoever Tobi is, I hope he isn't some clone/half of Madara. In my opinion, that would make everything needlessly convoluted. Tobi operated in the shadows for years, and Kisame died to protect his identity, so why would he just come right out and present his 'real' identity at the Kage summit? And if his real identity is already known, then why would he continue to wear his mask? (The obvious response to that is that he has some sort of weakness that his mask covers up, but again, that seems anticlimactic.)

Who do I think Tobi is? I don't know. Obito, Rin, Fugaku, Mikoto, and Kagami are all at least possibilities in my mind, though admittedly some of them are incredibly unlikely and fan fiction-y at best. I don't think Tobi is Izuna or Shisui--I'm going with instinct here, and neither of those choices feel right.

Anyway, for me the three major elements in the mystery surrounding Tobi's identity are his connection to the Mist, the nature of Zetsu, and Madara's statement about the rinnegan:

I wonder if Tobi has some connection to Haku. There's the Mist connection, as well as the obsession with kekkei genkai (at least doujutsu). Plus, way back in the day, wasn't Haku one of only three shinobi (Naruto and Sasuke being the other two) to be ranked in the databook as having a 5 for potential? That detail seems significant.

I also wonder if Zetsu's origins are inextricably tied to Tobi's, but it's hard to see how at this point.

Lastly, what if Tobi is in fact "Nagato"? Tobi's been shown to be willing to use someone else's name, so what if he gave his name to someone else? After all, the rinnegan was originally his (or so he claims). Maybe he couldn't accomplish what Madara had intended for him to do with it, so, some time after Madara had died, he found the Nagato we know as Nagato to achieve what he couldn't do. That would explain Tobi's connection to Madara, as well as Madara's statement about "Nagato."


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## Haloman (Oct 18, 2011)

Madara of the 6 paths said:


> -Zetsu copies a person in looks and abilities but is weaker. That could be what tobi-madara ment with he is a shell of his former self, he could be a more advanced zetsu. That may explain why he uses his six paths of pain and is so keen on getting so many sharingans and relying on his intangability and izanagi.
> 
> -We saw that tobi had zetsu like liquid come out of his arm.
> 
> This means that Tobi could be a zetsu clone with the will, intelligence and expertise of real madara before he died but didnt get his strength or EMS.



Well, I really doubt it's Tobi is a Zetsu. Is Tobi composed of Zetsu goo in some places? Yes, he is. Does that mean he's a Zetsu? No.

So what if Tobi *were* a Zetsu? Really think about that. Let's list off some things we know about this *hypothetical* situation:

1) Kabuto wants Sasuke.
2) Kabuto wants to experiment on a Zetsu.
3) Tobi is the one stopping Kabuto from getting Sasuke.
4) Tobi is the one stopping Kabuto from getting a Zetsu.
5) Kabuto has a venom that can neutralize Hashirama cells.
6) Kabuto's venom can also neutralize Zetsu, who is composed of Hashirama cells.
7) Tobi is a Zetsu composed of Hashirama cells. - _HYPOTHETICALLY_

Do you see the problem? If you said, "Kabuto could just incapacitate Tobi, experiment on as many Zetsus as he wants, and take Sasuke for his own purposes." you move on to the Fast Money round.

So... Tobi isn't a Zetsu. Tobi is someone from the manga (it's not going to be an asspull) who Kishi has shown us before. Regardless of how briefly. I'm actually fairly convinced that Tobi isn't even an Uchiha, though. Just another person stealing a Sharingan for his own purposes.


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## koohiinin (Oct 18, 2011)

Halo2298 said:


> So... Tobi isn't a Zetsu. Tobi is someone from the manga (it's not going to be an asspull) who Kishi has shown us before. Regardless of how briefly. I'm actually fairly convinced that Tobi isn't even an Uchiha, though. Just another person stealing a Sharingan for his own purposes.



I'm in complete agreement with this statement.


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## SensibleJohnSmith (Oct 18, 2011)

My girlfriend just made me watch the time travellers wife, and I have arrived at the conclusion that Tobi is Eric Bana.


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## Phresh Approved (Oct 18, 2011)

*Obito sharingan/Kakashi sharingan*

Kakashi's sharingan is a S/T sharingan and therefore meaning that Obito's was as well. Obito survived and has been surviving because he awakened that S/T sharingan and he is the man behind the mask of Tobi. 

Proceed to yell at me as I have no more evidence to back up this claim.


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## PureWIN (Oct 18, 2011)

And what's Obito's motive for taking over the world?


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## blacksword (Oct 18, 2011)

Tobi=Obito. Confirmed


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## crisler (Oct 18, 2011)

but tobi seemed too old to be obito. obito's as old as kakashi

and the other side of obito should be crushed. would he still have his eyes?


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## blacksword (Oct 18, 2011)

> but tobi seemed too old to be obito. obito's as old as kakashi


too old? Where did you get that?


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## Hasan (Oct 18, 2011)

Kamui was the result of Kakashi's off-panel training. It's his original technique and has nothing to do with Obito. I don't know why people assume that just because the techniques are similar, they should be related.

Obito gave his sharingan in his last moments and was done there. Besides, not everyone has the potential to awaken the MS. It's not like S/T abilities were written in Obito's DNA.


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## Rama (Oct 18, 2011)

so how did Obito awaken MS again?


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## blacksword (Oct 18, 2011)

> so how did Obito awaken MS again?


how did Kakashi awaken MS?


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## Escargon (Oct 18, 2011)

Madara of the 6 paths said:


> SO
> 
> -"Real" Madara was alive long enough to know of Nagato. He obviously referred to nagatos rinne tensei when he said he managed to grow.
> 
> ...



1. Yep, mindfuck indeed.

2. Well.. ill go with that its a really strong Zetsu that can become old.

3. And at the same time he can make his arm go titan.

4. Must be either a Zetsu, Izuna or Obito (ftw). Really. This manga is filled with lies.


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## Rama (Oct 18, 2011)

blacksword said:


> how did Kakashi awaken MS?



not getting crush by rocks thats for sure.


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## blacksword (Oct 18, 2011)

> not getting crush by rocks thats for sure.


what???


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## Rama (Oct 18, 2011)

blacksword said:


> what???



yep Obito got crush by Rocks


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## Phresh Approved (Oct 18, 2011)

In his fear of death he awakened the MS just like how Naruto learned to control the inner chakra when he was falling to his death to summon the boss toad.


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## emanresu (Oct 18, 2011)

i predicted Tobi=Obito like 10 years ago. and now it has been proven ..


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## Hasan (Oct 18, 2011)

emanresu said:


> i predicted Tobi=Obito like 10 years ago. and now it has been proven ..



10 years ago neither Tobi nor Obito existed in the manga. 

Kakashi said he'd take on Madara, didn't he? Tobi being Obito would only mark the upcoming epic battle between him and Kakashi.

As much as I'd like it, this isn't going to happen. Tobi is still related to Madara somehow. Let's wait for the next chapter for some kind of hint.

Like I said, you can't really judge it because the two techniques are similar. Kamui can be invoked by doing chakra training over and over. Implying, other users can also invoke it.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 18, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Kamui was the result of Kakashi's off-panel training. It's his original technique and has nothing to do with Obito. I don't know why people assume that just because the techniques are similar, they should be related.
> 
> Obito gave his sharingan in his last moments and was done there. Besides, not everyone has the potential to awaken the MS. It's not like S/T abilities were written in Obito's DNA.



Kakashi is not an Uchiha.
People need to understand, that his lack of Uchiha blood diables him from interfering with the extent or the direction of his Sharingan development.
Basically meaning, that there is no possibility for Kakashi to create "his own" technique.

He is bound to what ability Obito?s eye was destined to obtain and how far it was supposed to develop.

Even with Kakashi?s Mangekyou Sharingan, he just figured out another way of awakening it, but the abilities and powers it achieved is still directly linked and bound directly to Obito, since it is his eye, his blood limit and his unique genetic strain of eyes.

The similarity to Tobi?s  S/T techiques is undeniable.
I actually think Tobi?s techniques are just a further developed or enhanced version of Kamui.

And don?t be too quick to write the Obito theory off.
In the chapter "Danzo?s right arm" when fuu and torune fought Tobi, we could clearly see that he ripped off his right Zetsu replaced arm.
Now, maybe only his right side is replaced by Zetsu parts since it might be obitos body, who?s right side has been crushed.
Also then the question why only the right Sharingan is shown could be explained.
And finally all the EMS, contradictions etc would be solved.
Also Tobi?s statement of "I am only a former shell of myself" would be dragged into a whole new light.

The only mistery about Tobi is his right eye, nothing else.
It is not his identy or , his body we should worry about, it is only his right eye that is of rellevance.

And lastly the word play.

T O B I = OBIT (Missing O to complete Obito)

O B I T O = TOBIO(redundant O to complete Tobi)

If you give Tobi the o from obito it will become obito, and the former obito without the o will become tobi.
That word play could also stand for a metaphore, explaining the transformation from Obito to Tobi

I mean if it was Madara, there would be a  thousand names to pick from, why exactly Tobi the one name having some relation to Obito?
Some might say to fool people into thinking he is Tobi, but none seem to have reacted to it yet, especially not Kakashi.


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## Coldhands (Oct 18, 2011)

Never seen this thread before


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## Kung Pow (Oct 18, 2011)

JuubiSage said:


> Never seen this thread before



Never seen you *not *pointing out the obvious before.

Are you one of those people that yell, "hey look  it?s raining"?


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## DremolitoX (Oct 18, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> And lastly the word play.
> 
> T O B I = OBIT (Missing O to complete Obito)
> 
> ...



You don't need to go that far.

Just say "tobi" aloud to yourself like 20 times, quickly. What name do you end up hearing?

Now, do the same with "obito."

Don't butcher the names with the english pronunciation though.


*Spoiler*: _hint_ 



tobitobitobitobitobitobi


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## Kung Pow (Oct 18, 2011)

I think the links to Obito are undeniable, we will just have to wait for confirmations
And lol to the repeated pronounciation^^


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## Rama (Oct 18, 2011)

Just to be fair and atlest consider your theory, you guys don't believe is actually Obito, just his body being used....right?


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## Kung Pow (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, I don?t believe it is actually Obito, just his body and sharingan having been used and reconstructed with Zetsu parts.

But not only that but also Tobi?s technique references and links to Kakashi?s Kamui are very unlikely to be unrelated.


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## Talis (Oct 18, 2011)

Googleplex said:


>



This was also mentioned in the anime about the vessel.


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## Penance (Oct 18, 2011)

Hashirama said:


> yep Obito got crush by Rocks



Obito SMOTE them Bitches...


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## son_michael (Oct 18, 2011)

Hashirama said:


> Just to be fair and atlest consider your theory, you guys don't believe is actually Obito, just his body being used....right?



It amazes me that it took you this long to consider it. Do you really think people were just making everything up for shits and giggles? This is a theory supported by many facts and has been developed/evolving  ever since we first saw Tobi.

Every inconsistency or plot related foul anti believers can cry out, has now been negated thanks to zetsu's abilities. The only thing stopping this theory now is the personal bias against it.


Kishi has the green light to do w/e the hell he wants now


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## Butterfly (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't quite think Obito is Tobi. When Konan shattered Tobi's mask, one of the few things we could see is that he was _really_ old, which wouldn't make sense since Obito would be around Kakashi's age if he was fighting Konan.


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## Haloman (Oct 18, 2011)

muffinssi said:


> I don't quite think Obito is Tobi. When Konan shattered Tobi's mask, one of the few things we could see is that he was _really_ old, which wouldn't make sense since Obito would be around Kakashi's age if he was fighting Konan.



While I'm no longer a Tobito theorist, I can tell you that that's not a good reason for why it's not Obito. Tobi's face doesn't look _that_ old, and have you ever seen people who've needed major surgical reconstruction? 20 year olds that look like 40 year olds. I wouldn't use Tobi's looks to prove that it's not Obito.

Honestly, the best line of reasoning for disproving the Tobito theory is motive. In that Obito really wouldn't have any. Unless Madara (the real one) escaped VotE and took in Obito as a pupil and brainwashed him. And that just sounds silly.


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## Talis (Oct 18, 2011)

^If Tobi is Obito then those wrinkles arents wrinkles but the scar from the huge rock which messed up Obitos left face, and Kishi didnt reveal his right face side because if Obito managed to escape then his other face side probably didnt have scars according to this pic;  
If more rocks should have fell these rock should have protect the right face side like a shield and that especially makes me think that Tobi is Obito because Kishi didnt reveal us Tobis right face because that would have spoiled it. The way he managed to escape? His other Sharingan probably awakened the MS due to his extreme emotion feelings when he was up to die in there.
Just pure theories so no hate or flames.


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## son_michael (Oct 18, 2011)

loool3 said:


> ^If Tobi is Obito then those wrinkles arents wrinkles but the scar from the huge rock which messed up Obitos left face, and Kishi didnt reveal his right face side because if Obito managed to escape then his other face side probably didnt have scars according to this pic;
> If more rocks should have fell these rock should have protect the right face side like a shield and that especially makes me think that Tobi is Obito because Kishi didnt reveal us Tobis right face because that would have spoiled it. The way he managed to escape? His other Sharingan probably awakened the MS due to his extreme emotion feelings when he was up to die in there.
> Just pure theories so no hate or flames.



you know I never considered obito could have gotten out of there by teleporting(tobi's space time jutsu), good imagination! Zetsu could have found him somewhere else....of course, he most likely just saved him from the rocks



you know looking at that scene over and over again, it NEVER struck me as obito died, but rather just something ANTICLIMATIC happened. I can never for the life of me understand why people use the above picture to prove obito is dead. To me, it just BEGS to be continued.


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## Talis (Oct 18, 2011)

^Yeah and i already can predict the way Rin died.
Rin went after Obito's death body but couldnt find it then she got killed by some random ninjas.
If this will be truly the case then its really obvious why Kishi doesnt wants to reveal the way Rin died.


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## gershwin (Oct 18, 2011)

^ On that panel we can clearly see that there is A LOT of wrinkles (not scars) and  pigmented spots on his face. He doesnt look like a 30-years old man.
dont look at the translation


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## kisame95 (Oct 18, 2011)

my theory....

madara the real one, died at VOTE. As he died he somehow cloned himself or seperated himself into a much weaker being. IE- being a shell of his former self.
He used zetsu and his goo to reform his body and make it stronger. He had gathered hundreds of eyes from uhchiua massarcre, why not have zetsu find obitos remaining eye. I mean why would he only use one eye over and over again? Because that one eye is obitos, which has a space time theme to it. He has two sharringans, or at least did against kohnan so he may have replaced one with obitos to gain this jutsu. Everyone saying obito lived by doing some crazy teleportation is bullshit. He was like 10! and he only had a 2 tomeo eye. Not even three tomeo, so it was nowhere near using any ocular jutsu. His best feat was a small scale katon, really you think he actually teleportated?He is old as he is still madara, just a very weakened form of him and most likly all zetsu goo.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 18, 2011)

Concerning the Tobito theory there are those who think that it is merely his body that is being controlled but there are also those who think it is 100% Obito.



gershvin said:


> ^ On that panel we can clearly see that there is A LOT of wrinkles (not scars) and  pigmented spots on his face. He doesnt look like a 30-years old man.
> dont look at the translation



I see lots of scratches from the explosions and of course the shadow lines but no wrinkles aside from the lines that we already knew he had.


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## maltyy (Oct 18, 2011)

Tobi is NOT Madara, not even a clone or split or whatever. You know why?

Because from the little we've seen of Edo Madara, and the accurate historical data on Madara when he was alive, he doesn't come off as a bastard like Tobi. Tobi is weak, sneaky, cowardly, and has yet to show any of Madara's actual abilities, apart from controlling the Kyuubi.

And I don't see Madara as the type to make a clone. To me, Madara comes off as an anti-hero, having a sense of honor and living by his own set of laws. Was he good? I don't think so, but I wouldn't say he was evil either.

Anyway, I think it's Izuna. The whole Naruto plot is based on family issues, jealousy of Madara and having his eyes stolen would provide good motif for Izuna. Think of Jagi from Fist of the North Star.


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## Icegaze (Oct 18, 2011)

DremolitoX said:


> You don't need to go that far.
> 
> Just say "tobi" aloud to yourself like 20 times, quickly. What name do you end up hearing?
> 
> ...



Sh!t. 
Mind blown.

What if.. just what if. 

Nooooooo, is that doubt in my head? 

Maybe Madara had a son. That son is Tobi. Yes, yes! It's all clear now.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Oct 18, 2011)

Although i really like that Tobi-Obito wordplay....coincidence? 

I was told that Tobi in japanese, could also mean "Juubi" namely Ten-Tails which would make the connection to his plan and not to Obito.

So let's just wait till next chapter is out i can't wait


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## SensibleJohnSmith (Oct 18, 2011)

Tobi = some form of embodiment of the juubi.

'Shadow of his former self" 

That's right, if you people can claim that he is a clone of Madara, using your logic I say Tobi is the juubi. I mean think about it. There are panels here and there that, along with some reasoning I pulled out of my ***, suggest I am right.

But in all seriousness, I hope kishi doesn't make the explanation too convoluted.


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## Superstars (Oct 18, 2011)

Anybody want to put their accounts on the line? I bet that Tobi IS Madara.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Oct 18, 2011)

Maybe it's Zetsu? He is able to perfectly become anyone he has touched, right down to their chakra.

But he seems to honestly believe that he IS Madara, so that makes it complicated.


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## Louis-954 (Oct 18, 2011)

Pretty sure it's Kagami.


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## son_michael (Oct 18, 2011)




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## bangbig01 (Oct 18, 2011)

*This is my theory*

This is my theory, whoever the mask guy is he is old enough to take Madara's real eyes and steal FIrst hokage's cell. He probably loot it when the two (Madara and First) fight one another to death. He should be dead because he does not have a physical body anymore, he is just using zetsu's fake body with his soul implanted in it. He has good knowledge about the Sage of the six path and the past, so probably he Time Traveled using his jutsu or really old? He is not Obito...psh drop it already why would Obito want to destroy Konoha ~_~. and he has high regards for Madara, obviously he has high respect for the man.  This guy also wants to destroy Konoha, Old citizen perhaps?.  

Maybe A new story awaits, a new character, a new villain, we will find out

Question still lingers, who is this man?..I CANT WAIT FOR THE NEXT CHAPTERS =D!!!!!!!

EDIT: one more thing, I doubt that it is Zetsu, because Zetsu came from From first Hokage's cell, the same way "Madara's" army was made, So I believe he is not the BRAIN for all this, so it cant be him


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## Almondsand (Oct 18, 2011)

Tobi is Madara. There is enough subliminal messages sent through the dialogue of both Edo Madara and Zetsu Clone Madara that suggests they are indeed the same person.


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## son_michael (Oct 18, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Give me the minutes I wasted on that video back, that was a complete waste of time. You can tell this video is outdated as the chapters he used were done three years ago. If Tobi is Obito, there must be more solid evidence provided especially from more recent information.



lol what, so information from the manga is not good enough to support a theory unless its recent?


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## Nep Nep (Oct 18, 2011)

My latest thought. If Tobi=Madara chapter 559 was a COMPLETE waste. Why show Madara dead if you're just gonna use some ass pull explanation next chapter to explain how he never really died. 

Yes you may have seen similar posts of mine in other related threads now it's here too.


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## jacamo (Oct 19, 2011)

i am also pretty sure its Kagami


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## Van Konzen (Oct 19, 2011)

it's just not Obito.

...Tobi has two Sharingan eyes.. showed in manga 510..
...based on the time line.. he gave Nagato the rinnegan.. and Tobi fought with Minato during the rampage of the Kyuubi.. he couldnt be Obito by that time.. if he lived, he was too young then.. plus his ideals, how could a young Obito be fed with that info with that span of time or of his Life..
...regarding the Kamui of Kakashi and the Vacuum Toilet of Tobi,
your Obito should be activating MS whenever he use his Toilet power..
though he is an Uchiha we should see some effects of it to his body or in his eyes when casting but he uses it with ease and of several times..  
...and just look at the face of Tobi, he is in the age bracket of Danzo..
it doesnt make sense why would make his face that old if he really is Obito..
if its a real Uchiha pretending to be Madara.. Kagami Uchiha is a good candidate but he is just too a side character.. 

im stickin to the ninjutsu soul/body split sh*t of Madara..


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 19, 2011)

redfang45 said:


> ...Tobi has two Sharingan eyes.. showed in manga 510..



The left eye wasn't his, it was Izanagi fodder.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 19, 2011)

redfang45 said:


> it's just not Obito.
> 
> ...Tobi has two Sharingan eyes.. showed in manga 510..
> ...based on the time line.. he gave Nagato the rinnegan.. and Tobi fought with Minato during the rampage of the Kyuubi.. he couldnt be Obito by that time.. if he lived, he was too young then.. plus his ideals, how could a young Obito be fed with that info with that span of time or of his Life..
> ...



Not saying it IS Obito but first off if it's cause of Tobi's height he couldn't be Tobi, look at how Tall Sasuke and Naruto are after the 2 year timeskip. People state that after having half his body crushed he likely developed amnesia. If it's the wrinkles on the face, his body is part Zetsu so who knows what affects that has on a regular human. As for the "toilet power" not activating MS... Okay? that doesn't help prove or disprove it, perhaps as an Uchiha his basic Sharingan has more abilities than the one he gave Kakashi or it's simply a random fodder Sharingan that he came across with that power. 

Obito is both hard to prove and hard to disprove. Explaning for him isn't that convoluted and neither is explaining against him. Obito is the maybe it is maybe it's not guy.


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## Hexa (Oct 19, 2011)

We actually saw Tobi use Izanagi twice.  He almost definitely used Izanagi to save himself after Itachi's trap set him on fire with Amaterasu.  Since he has over a hundred eyes in stock, he popped another one between the Cave Talk and his fight with Konan.


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## bangbig01 (Oct 19, 2011)

Hexa said:


> We actually saw Tobi use Izanagi twice.  He almost definitely used Izanagi to save himself after Itachi's trap set him on fire with Amaterasu.  Since he has over a hundred eyes in stock, he popped another one between the Cave Talk and his fight with Konan.



Thats a good thought, but its also a possibility that he just swap body rather than using Izanagi.  If u think about it, Madara seems pretty surprised of Izanagi when Danzo uses it, he did not realize it at first.  That means he probably copied it from Danzo and that is how is use it against Konan.  Tobi's body is actually composed of the same body of Zetsu(First Hokage's Cell), thats why no matter how many times his arms gets tore-off he gets his full body back.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 19, 2011)

bangbig01 said:


> Thats a good thought, but its also a possibility that he just swap body rather than using Izanagi.  If u think about it, Madara seems pretty surprised of Izanagi when Danzo uses it, he did not realize it at first.  That means he probably copied it from Danzo and that is how is use it against Konan.  Tobi's body is actually composed of the same body of Zetsu(First Hokage's Cell), thats why no matter how many times his arms gets tore-off he gets his full body back.



I don't think you understand how Izanagi works. You can't just copy the jutsu, you need Senju and Uchiha DNA to use it.

Not to mention Tobi told Konan that he specifically gained Senju DNA in order to use it.

Also, Tobi can't just regenerate limbs despite being made of Zetsu goo. He couldn't regenerate his arm when he fought Konan. Same for Danzou.

He definitely used Izanagi to survive Amaterasu.


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## son_michael (Oct 19, 2011)

what makes you think he didn't just teleport away from Amateratsu and Konans exploding tags? If he really does have the reverse of Kamui then he should be able to suck anything into an alternate dimension, that includes attacks and explosions.

what evidence is there that he used Izanagi?


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## Motochika (Oct 19, 2011)

It would seem to be that having obtained the Sage's Power allowed Madara to have both Senju & Uchiha powers. What I theorize is that towards his death a dying Madara created a "shell" of himself to carry on his plans or something of that extent.


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## Artful Lurker (Oct 19, 2011)

I think it's The Mystery Saru*tobi* Yes I'm talking about the who abandoned his son in search of power, Asuma's brother and first son to the 3rd Hokage


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## Greidy (Oct 19, 2011)

Tobi is Hashirama Senju.

Totally calling it.


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## son_michael (Oct 19, 2011)

Ikorose said:


> Tobi is Hashirama Senju.
> 
> Totally calling it.



your probably joking but just in case...Hashirama is sealed in the Death God.


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## Greidy (Oct 19, 2011)

son_michael said:


> youur probably joking but just in case...Hashirama is sealed in the Death God.



That's just what Kishimoto wants you to think


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## gehad (Oct 19, 2011)

I believe that tobi is madara's weak split . Madara fought Hashirama & was about to lose or planned to lose and he split himself . If Muu the tsuchikage can do it then Madara could definitely do it and tobi is his weak split and when they join or do whatever they'll be invincible . Its simple as that . I don't believe its tobi or the guy who was with Saru & Danzo ( i don't remember his name ) .


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## Escargon (Oct 19, 2011)

Lol did Tobi steal the fan from Madara?


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## Nep Nep (Oct 19, 2011)

gehad said:


> I believe that tobi is madara's weak split . Madara fought Hashirama & was about to lose or planned to lose and he split himself . If Muu the tsuchikage can do it then Madara could definitely do it and tobi is his weak split and when they join or do whatever they'll be invincible . Its simple as that . I don't believe its tobi or the guy who was with Saru & Danzo ( i don't remember his name ) .



That's the equivalent of saying cause Naruto can do Rasengan than Sasuke should be able to do it too. 

Madara=Apples Muu=Oranges they're not comparable, they're two absolutely unrelated different ninja with completely different abilities and fighting styles. 

Muu is strong sure but there are other strong ninja and none have been shown to do soul splitting, clearly it's a jutsu of his own. Tobi can do things cause he's clearly got a mess of DNA and all sorts of crap stuffed into his body, original Madara is simply a pure Uchiha. 

Once again if Tobi is a split of Madara then chapter 559 was a complete waste of time. 

You don't devote a chapter to showing evidence that someone is dead and then go and disprove it in the next chapter with some ability that another character already possesses to explain why he never really died in the first place. 

It's the strongest argument against it and there are plenty more.


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## Jυstin (Oct 19, 2011)

It'd be a real mindfuck asspull if it was Hashirama somehow.


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## Brigade (Oct 19, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> It'd be a real mindfuck asspull if it was Hashirama somehow.



  :amazed <--- faces I made.


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## Penance (Oct 19, 2011)

Escargon said:


> Lol did Tobi steal the fan from Madara?



Most likely...


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## gehad (Oct 19, 2011)

Kyokkai said:


> That's the equivalent of saying cause Naruto can do Rasengan than Sasuke should be able to do it too.
> 
> Madara=Apples Muu=Oranges they're not comparable, they're two absolutely unrelated different ninja with completely different abilities and fighting styles.
> 
> ...



I'm not comparing them , for sure Muu is a strong shinobi and for sure Madara is on a different level but what i mean is that there is a high possibility that a shinobi of madara's caliber must've known about the splitting jutsu specially if there was a plan to die , give nagato the Rinnegan and then plan on Nagato reviving him like he said when we 1st saw him the chapter before . I believe both are the same , Madara's mask and form in Uzamaki Kushina's flashback looked so much like tobi tho . I can't see any other character that could turn out to be tobi except for him actually , i'm not convinced that its obito or even Danzo & saru's comrade , if you have a good explanation then please put it on the table and i'll gladly try to prove myself right . 

Also about Tobi having weird techniques , its normal for a sharingan wielder i guess , i mean Kakashi could teleport a part of Diedra's body so he managed to cut his hands during their fight he also teleported NAruto , Sakura and the rest of the team to escape Diedra's explosion , why would be weird for madara to be able to teleport or fuse with the ground or a surrounding medium like Orochimaru did . He's not Danzo , Dazno wanted to achive great power so he implanted a lot of sharingan on his arm and had Uchiha shisui's eye not to mention the 1st's cells but i don't see tobi doing any of this .


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## Yaypie (Oct 19, 2011)

Has anyone said Madara's younger brother? It would be very ironic.


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## Brigade (Oct 19, 2011)

Yaypie said:


> Has anyone said Madara's younger brother? It would be very ironic.



I would like to think I was the first.


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## gehad (Oct 19, 2011)

I guess it was said that His brother died Shortly after madara took his eyes ( i hope i remember that correctly ) .


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## The Space Cowboy (Oct 19, 2011)

Tobi is a good boy--that is the correct answer!


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 19, 2011)

Izuna's a likely candidate.

I could buy that him dying was a lie, and instead he faded into the shadows, "a shell of his former self", or something along those lines.

The problem with it being Izuna is that he gave his eyes to Madara to obtain EMS. Whether he did it willingly or not doesn't matter, simply the fact that he should have lost both of his eyes.

Conversely, Tobi seems to have a strong affinity for his right eye. He implanted other Sharingan into his left socket solely to avoid having to sacrifice it for Izanagi. And even when he acquired the Rinnegan he only implanted one of the two eyes, for no discernible reason.

Based on these actions I think it's reasonable to assume Tobi's left Sharingan is his original eye. But that would mean that it can't be Izuna because he gave away both of his eyes to Madara.

So the issue with it being Izuna is

-Why he would have such a strong affinity for a Sharingan that isn't his?

and

-Why, when he has the opportunity to implant a set of better eyes (Rinnegan) does he still choose not to?


----------



## Fatback (Oct 19, 2011)

Its almost sad but still funny how many people were shocked by this who is Tobi revelation. You shoulda been asking that question this whole time. Nutjobs like me tried to tell you all to question Tobi's identity... You act as though just because your shocked, everyone else is shocked too... Guess what?? It was utterly obvious the whole time that Tobi wasnt madara... The Madara split himself theory is about to get crapped on too.


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 19, 2011)

I would say he is someone who is deeply tied to Madara. A clone of himself.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 19, 2011)

Makoto Sensei said:


> I would say he is someone who is deeply tied to Madara. A clone of himself.


It has to be because he knew he was going to be revived, and the only person I can think of who was close to Madara was his younger brother. Everyone else is either dead, or actually thought Tobi was Madara.


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 19, 2011)

BurningVegeta said:


> It has to be because he knew he was going to be revived, and the only person I can think of who was close to Madara was his younger brother. Everyone else is either dead, or actually thought Tobi was Madara.



Well, Izuna died before the VotE figth, so he was'nt. It must be someone else. Another pure blood Uchiha. 8/


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## The Determinator (Oct 19, 2011)

Makoto Sensei said:


> Well, Izuna died before the VotE figth, so he was'nt. It must be someone else. Another pure blood Uchiha. 8/



supposedly died remember the same person that told us this said he was madara.


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 19, 2011)

The Determinator said:


> supposedly died remember the same person that told us this said he was madara.



It came out in the DB that Izuna died shortly after given his eyes.


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## Mangetsu126 (Oct 19, 2011)

Obito - too young

Izuna - assumed dead, but possible

Kagami - assumed dead, but also possible

someone new? also possible and would be really refreshing.

some people think tobi is madara living off zetsu's body, I personally think that would be lame and hopefully bullshit, and some signs lead that madara is someone else, when kabuto told him " so you go by madara these days" and the fact that he shat his pants when he saw the sixth coffin.

there is also the fact that we haven't seen the EMS yet, and from the looks of it, kabuto knows the truth about tobi.


----------



## Penance (Oct 19, 2011)

Obito's not too young...


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 19, 2011)

Penance said:


> Obito's not too young...



He's dead pal :/


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 19, 2011)

Makoto Sensei said:


> Well, Izuna died before the VotE figth, so he was'nt. It must be someone else. Another pure blood Uchiha. 8/



The Databook also said Tobi was Madara.

And look where that went.


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## Makoto Sensei (Oct 19, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> The Databook also said Tobi was Madara.
> 
> And look where that went.



I'm certain Tobi is somehow Madara. Don't bring too many dead Uchihas up


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## Penance (Oct 19, 2011)

Makoto Sensei said:


> He's dead pal :/



So's Izuna, and every other Uchiha we haven't seen...


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## Terra Branford (Oct 19, 2011)

Why isn't Obito apart of the poll? Or the other Uchiha options. I think they deserve a spot in there besides "I'll write who he is down here..". 



> He's dead pal :/


So were other people and they are back. Also, remember "Just because he says he's Madara, doesn't mean he is". Apply that to this and well, you know.

We just have to wait I guess. xD


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## Penance (Oct 19, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> Why isn't Obito apart of the poll? Or the other Uchiha options. I think they deserve a spot in there besides "I'll write who he is down here..".
> 
> 
> So were other people and they are back. Also, remember "Just because he says he's Madara, doesn't mean he is". Apply that to this and well, you know.
> ...



Why do you make so much sense, regardless of thread?


----------



## KGBprophet (Oct 19, 2011)

I think its Kagami Uchiha and he looks like tobi with half his masked blown off...just saying


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## Therion (Oct 19, 2011)

For real? I think that Tobi may be the Juubi... Or something like that... For me he's trying to get his old body back...


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## Abanikochan (Oct 20, 2011)

Maybe Tobi is to Madara what Yamato is to Hashirama...except with a major identity crisis? .....


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## moongem (Oct 20, 2011)

M'kay, I've been waiting for this xD:

Obito=Tobi

Why? I has a theory. I believe Kakashi Gaiden was a lie. Kakashi has a Mangekyo Sharingan, which can only be obtained after killing ones closest friend. Obito was Kakashi's closest friend, Kakashi has Mangekyo.

I believe Kakashi may have a dark side. Mainly because Rin's disappearance, this has never been explained and most fans say it's Kishi's lack of interest in female characters. I disagree. I believe Rin's death will be explain with it's epicenter revolving around, or in fact being, Kakashi. Kakashi has been around since the begining, everyone one trusts and looks up to Kakashi, no one would suspect Kakashi. The only person who saw the events of Kakashi's 'Gaiden' or 'story' was Kakashi, probably told by none other then Kakashi... This could be wrong and it might not, I'm entitled to mu opinion.

Kakashi's Mangekyo is very similar to 'Tobi's'. Perhaps Deidara's arm is in that pocket dimension? We've never actually seen Tobi's Mangekyo active while using Kamui anyway, perhaps Kishi is doing this so we don't know it's shape?

Oh yeah, they have the same english voice as of Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Impact. Obito/ "Madara" with spiral mask = Vic Mignogna

I believe Obito = Tobi in someway or another for whatever reason.


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## Penance (Oct 20, 2011)

Abanikochan said:


> Maybe Tobi is to Madara what Yamato is to Hashirama...except with a major identity crisis? .....



I considered Obito being that, sure...


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## Tyler (Oct 20, 2011)

Makoto Sensei said:


> He's dead pal :/



So is every mothafucka on the opposing side in this war. Point?


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## cant i guest post (Oct 20, 2011)

Uchiha Izuna: 174.8cm x 55.9kg

Tobi: 175.0cm x 55.9kg


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## poorboy (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm guessing the reason why Kabuto paired Muu with Edo-Madara was because both of them were able to split themselves.

What must have happened was that Original Madara split himself into two, and half of him was killed, leaving the other half a shell of his former self and become Tobi.

This reminds me of something:  Cat in a box, anyone?


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## Suparman (Oct 20, 2011)

"This is *his* doing... He definitely has something in mind... but what? Things don't seem to be according to plan very well. That someone was able to revive me into this kind of state." 

It seems that this is the only time where he did not outright acknowledge himself as Madara.


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## The Prodigy (Oct 20, 2011)

gehad said:


> When tobi was telling Sasuke his story , it was said that Izuna his brother was dead . So you're assuming that faked his brother's death and his brother is tobi ??



It is plausible, after all "Tobi" has shown many contradictions to Itachi's story. Izuna's death was actually the only part besides Madara taking Izuna's eyes, which Izuna were mentioned.


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## jangles (Oct 20, 2011)

i think that Tobi is the elder brother of the rikudou sennin, in obito's body using a version of orochimaru's jutsu


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## CrimsonRex (Oct 20, 2011)

Godammit said:


> Obitoooooooooo is back



*Been some time, I remember when that theory ran around.*


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## Guru (Oct 20, 2011)

It's kagami, i betcha.


----------



## Doge (Oct 20, 2011)

Edo madara:  Proof Tobi did not have Madara's soul.

Soul=determining factor that you are someone.  If anyone else claims to be you, they are probably an imposter or a clone.


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## tanman (Oct 20, 2011)

People who are still saying that it's Madara are going through the denial stage.
People who say it's Obito are going through the anger stage.
People who say it's Kagami are going through the bargaining stage. 
People who say it's a Zetsu are going through the depression stage.


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## AMtrack (Oct 20, 2011)

/sigh

Tobi almost *has* to be Madara for a variety of reasons.

1)  All the Uchihas are dead anyway.  So the argument that "Madara is dead he can't be Tobi" is ridiculous.  Its logical at first, but then if you think about it all the other Uchiha are dead too.  So how does him being some other dead Uchiha make more sense than him being Madara?


2)  Granted, he could be an Uchiha that was alive all this time.  But that doesn't explain the Zetsu goo nor does it give him any importance to the story.  How is a guy supposed to be final villain when he has zero plot relevance.  The only thing that made Tobi important was that he was Madara.  Him *not* being Madara doesnt make him final villain material, and is pretty poor writing in general.  Random Uchiha villain totally undermines various plotlines.  For instance:

a. Naruto was supposed to succeed where his father failed, by defeating Madara once and for all.  Yeah umm..if Tobi isnt Madara this whole thing kinda poofs.  

b. Itachi was supposed to be protecting Sasuke from Madara all this time.  Remember Itachi spent all his free time keeping Madara wary of messing with Konoha.  Tobi not being Madara again makes this very very pointless and irrelevant.

c. Itachi implanted a jutsu in Sasuke's sharingan that would activate upon seeing Madara's sharingan.  If Tobi wasnt Madara, how did it activate?  Unless you're trying to say Itachi never knew Madara and followed orders from some random Uchiha all this time.  I find that hard to believe....


So holding on to the Tobi=Madara theory isnt a matter of being illogical, its that several plot points depend on this dynamic.  Him not being Madara renders quite a few things pointless and futile, and contradicts everything the story has been about up to this point.  

Not that Tobi isn't someone else, but Tobi being someone else would be terrible writing at this point...because of what it does to the story, and because Kishi never set that plot twist up properly.


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## Penance (Oct 20, 2011)

lvl80elitetaurenchieftain said:


> Edo madara:  Proof Tobi did not have Madara's soul.
> 
> Soul=determining factor that you are someone.  If anyone else claims to be you, they are probably an imposter or a clone.



Trufax...



tanman said:


> People who are still saying that it's Madara are going through the denial stage.
> People who say it's Obito are going through the anger stage.
> People who say it's Kagami are going through the bargaining stage.
> People who say it's a Zetsu are going through the depression stage.



I'm not angry...


----------



## Nep Nep (Oct 20, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> /sigh
> 
> Tobi almost *has* to be Madara for a variety of reasons.
> 
> ...



1.Izuna's body was shown in a flashback from Tobi while feeding lies to Sasuke which means no there's no solid proof he's dead 
Kagami was never shown to have died and unlike several othere Uchiha fodder he was given a name and a little bit of a story 
Obito is shown to have half his body crushed but he was never seen in a coffin, you could argue cause they couldn't get his body out so a memorial was more simple but even if that's the reason there is still no body. 
We have seen Madara's body therefore he must be dead.  
So basically only Madara has been absolutely proven dead along with Sasukes parents and Itachi. The rest of them have no solid proof they're dead

2.Zetsu goo is likely just from Senju cells. He doesn't need his own elaborate backstory just yet either he IS connected to Madara in some way but is NOT Madara so his backstory can be filled in with Madaras. What the heck do we know about Tobi anyways? Nothing we know what he's doing now we know nothing of his past so therefore we already have a final villain with no backstory as of yet as his identity must be revealed in order to reveal his backstory, all of it not just the few little memories we've seen, we're missing the main part of his backstory, his connection to Madara. So his backstory might as well not be there at this time the main point of it hasn't been revealed. 

Succeed where his father failed? The goal of this manga from Naruto was to become Hokage and now it's to save Sasuke? Madara is dead as of now so technically there is no need to succeed into anything the only thing to do is to put him back to his eternal slumber. You can't finish someone off if they've already been finished off. 

Itachi can know both Tobi and Madara... Sharingan isn't Byakugan it's not like even Itachi could assess that Tobi isn't Madara. 

Tobi has a massive amount of Sharingan why can't he have Madaras? If they're connected then ofc he has Madaras Sharingan along with his other collection of Sharingan. 

Tobi=Madara seems quite illogical at this time indeed. Izuna is connected to Madara and all the Uchiha are family therefore it could be any Uchiha, backstory of a Final Villain isn't always filled in immediately.... In fact most of the time the FV reveals their whole story in the final fight.  

As I said various times before chapter 559 is clearly suggesting that Madara is dead. What was the bloody point of that chapter if not to prove that Madara is DEAD? 

Again I've said what's the point if Edo Tensei isn't solid proof someone is dead? We might as well throw our brains out when reading cause why need it when we're reading about a world where there isn't even one restriction on the rules of death?... Nagato revived Konoha cause imagine how pissed fans would be if all of Konoha died. So don't even bother saying well Nagato can defy death so why can't Rinnegan Madara.  

Madara is dead, we saw his edo zombie, the edo zombie has Madaras soul so Tobi cannot be Madara or Kabuto wouldn't be able to summon Madara cause he requires Madaras soul to inhabit the corpse.  

Don't give me the soul split theory either. Muu is a completely different and separate ninja with his own powers and abilities and Madara is Madara..  

It's crazy to make a chapter showing someone to be dead and then next chapter absolutely ignore that fact by claiming he never really died in the first place... 

Before you try to compare other theories Orochimaru can come back cause he's not technically dead, Obito, Izuna, and Kagami can be Tobi cause their bodies were never shown dead in a coffin by anyone other than Tobi who was feeding Sasuke his lies at the time. Madara cannot be Tobi cause his edo tensei is undeniable, solid, concrete proof that he kicked the bucket. 

If you've read my arguments before and they're boring you well until this debate stops you'll be seeing them a lot more.  

Tobi cannot be Madara regardless of all the other little details that previously tried to prove who he is. Did you honestly believe he was Madara when he first said it? I doubt you did and little details and flashbacks don't mean anything now cause we just saw his dead body walking, talking, and attempting to kill.


----------



## -Deidara- (Oct 20, 2011)

remember how zetsu has always been around as long as madara? remember how zetsu always calls madara tobi? remember how zetsu says you can only count on yourself. he has no partner, he don't really wanna work with anyone.

zetsu touched madara and that conscious etc....

zetsu is the weed that keeps growing, hes responsible. look at the kisame clone it was kisame personailty. etc... 

zetsu is a mastermind, identity theft jutsu.

According to the Third Databook:
Zetsu's hobby is observing unique shinobi.
Zetsu wishes to fight people who are likely to leave behind a corpse that will make a good meal.
Zetsu's favourite food is "chewy" people, while his least favourites are konnyaku and jelly.
Zetsu's favourite phrase is "Independence unbending" (独立不撓, Dokuritsu Futō), which roughly means "The only one you can count on is yourself".
Wherever "Madara" is, Zetsu is never far behind.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> /sigh
> 
> Tobi almost *has* to be Madara for a variety of reasons.
> 
> 1)  All the Uchihas are dead anyway.  So the argument that "Madara is dead he can't be Tobi" is ridiculous.  Its logical at first, but then if you think about it all the other Uchiha are dead too.  So how does him being some other dead Uchiha make more sense than him being Madara?



All the Uchihas are _presumed_ dead.

Whoever Tobi is avoided that somehow.



> 2)  Granted, he could be an Uchiha that was alive all this time.  But that doesn't explain the Zetsu goo nor does it give him any importance to the story.  How is a guy supposed to be final villain when he has zero plot relevance.  The only thing that made Tobi important was that he was Madara.  Him *not* being Madara doesnt make him final villain material, and is pretty poor writing in general.  Random Uchiha villain totally undermines various plotlines.  For instance:



Nope. Whoever Tobi is will have relevance simply because of what he's done as Tobi.



> a. Naruto was supposed to succeed where his father failed, by defeating Madara once and for all.  Yeah umm..if Tobi isnt Madara this whole thing kinda poofs.



Except Minato didn't fight Madara, he fought Tobi.



> b. Itachi was supposed to be protecting Sasuke from Madara all this time.  Remember Itachi spent all his free time keeping Madara wary of messing with Konoha.  Tobi not being Madara again makes this very very pointless and irrelevant.



Except Itachi wasn't protecting Sasuke from Madara, he was protecting him from Tobi.



> c. Itachi implanted a jutsu in Sasuke's sharingan that would activate upon seeing Madara's sharingan.  If Tobi wasnt Madara, how did it activate?  Unless you're trying to say Itachi never knew Madara and followed orders from some random Uchiha all this time.  I find that hard to believe....



It didn't activate upon seeing Madara's Sharingan, it activated upon seeing _*Tobi's*_ Sharingan.



> So holding on to the Tobi=Madara theory isnt a matter of being illogical, its that several plot points depend on this dynamic.  Him not being Madara renders quite a few things pointless and futile, and contradicts everything the story has been about up to this point.



Nope, everything that ties Tobi to Naruto and Sasuke has nothing to do with Madara.



> Not that Tobi isn't someone else, but Tobi being someone else would be terrible writing at this point...because of what it does to the story, and because Kishi never set that plot twist up properly.



Kishi has dropped tons of hints pointing to Tobi not being Madara, and plenty of people, myself included, have picked up on them.

The mask alone should have been enough for you to know something was up with his identity.


----------



## AMtrack (Oct 21, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> All the Uchihas are _presumed_ dead.
> 
> Whoever Tobi is avoided that somehow.



Thanks for the correction, but yes i find it a bit late to start bringing Uchiha out of the woodworks.  Especially when the strongest was supposed to be Madara, the most sinister Madara, so anything less than Madara is severely lackluster in terms of a Final Villain.





> Nope. Whoever Tobi is will have relevance simply because of what he's done as Tobi.



As a reader I don't really buy that.  It might work for some ppl, but from a writer's perspective I dont find it to be "good" writing.  Final villains need to have some overarching relevance/connection to the main characters.  All Tobi did was start a war, anyone could have done that.  Thats not enough to constitute relevance.  Without an identity like "Madara" he might as well be an arc villain.





> Except Minato didn't fight Madara, he fought Tobi.



But it was *said* by Minato and by Tobi that he fought Madara.  Naruto was *told*  that Minato fought Madara, and we were told Minato fought Madara.  Obviously it was meant to be a bait and switch, but i severely question its execution.  The bait was just used *way* too much.





> Except Itachi wasn't protecting Sasuke from Madara, he was protecting him from Tobi.



But Itachi said Madara, and thus we were told Madara.  Its not about what actually happened in hindsight, rather how the manga presented its facts.





> It didn't activate upon seeing Madara's Sharingan, it activated upon seeing _*Tobi's*_ Sharingan.



I know, but once again, it was presented as Madara.  Its always been presented as Madara.  





> Nope, everything that ties Tobi to Naruto and Sasuke has nothing to do with Madara.



But now *nothing* ties Tobi to Naruto and Sasuke.  Literally nothing.  And i bet you Kishi will *force* some obscure connection when Tobi is finally revealed.  The whole thing screams unplanned, or at least rushed to the point of poor execution.



> Kishi has dropped tons of hints pointing to Tobi not being Madara, and plenty of people, myself included, have picked up on them.
> 
> The mask alone should have been enough for you to know something was up with his identity.



Well to be fair Kishi has a propensity for hiding the obvious.  Remember how long it took him to reveal that Yondaime was Naruto's father?  We all frickin knew it, so him hiding Tobi's identity didnt seem a *clear* indication that it wasn't Madara.

Obviously it definitely wasn't Madara's body, the mystery was who's body it was.  But it was very possible, and widely supported, that Madara was simply using someone else's body, Obito being the most popular candidate.


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Oct 21, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> c. Itachi implanted a jutsu in Sasuke's sharingan that would activate upon seeing Madara's sharingan.  If Tobi wasnt Madara, how did it activate?



Itachi also installed a jutsu in a crow to activate when it saw Sasuke's MS, but it activated when it saw Itachi's MS...


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## forkandspoon (Oct 21, 2011)

it's either Sasuke's dad (a guy a lot like Uchiha Madara) or Obito.


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## Almondsand (Oct 21, 2011)

My first choice of who Tobi is, as you all must know is Madara. I mean just from the dialogue said by characters such as Tobi and Itachi, it points towards him. Tobi is definitely a being made up of senju cells, and zetsu goo with a Sharingan. I mean it's very possible for Madara to seal away his chakra and create a being of himself. I mean the power of the sage, was that he could create shape and breath life in to the form and Edo Madara said he awakened his Rinnegan upon his death bed, Tobi is also quoted that the reason he fought Hashirama was to steal his cells. You can't outrule Tobi being Madara just yet.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> Thanks for the correction, but yes i find it a bit late to start bringing Uchiha out of the woodworks.  Especially when the strongest was supposed to be Madara, the most sinister Madara, so anything less than Madara is severely lackluster in terms of a Final Villain.



You're making the same assumption everyone in the manga made, that only Madara was capable of such power.

Tobi's feats, powers, and hype speaks for themselves.



> As a reader I don't really buy that.  It might work for some ppl, but from a writer's perspective I dont find it to be "good" writing.  Final villains need to have some overarching relevance/connection to the main characters.  All Tobi did was start a war, anyone could have done that.  Thats not enough to constitute relevance.  Without an identity like "Madara" he might as well be an arc villain.



Are you forgetting that he was responsible for the Kyuubi attack and had a hand in the Uchiha Massacre?

He was behind arguably the two most significant events in the manga.

How is that not relevant?



> But it was *said* by Minato and by Tobi that he fought Madara.  Naruto was *told*  that Minato fought Madara, and we were told Minato fought Madara.  Obviously it was meant to be a bait and switch, but i severely question its execution.  The bait was just used *way* too much.



How was it too much?

Minato wasn't even sure that Tobi was Madara. He referred to him simply as "the masked man" more than once, again another forewarning of the revelation to come.



> But Itachi said Madara, and thus we were told Madara.  Its not about what actually happened in hindsight, rather how the manga presented its facts.



The "Madara" Itachi referred to was Tobi. I don't see any problems with how it was presented.



> I know, but once again, it was presented as Madara.  Its always been presented as Madara.



Obviously, that's part of the twist.



> But now *nothing* ties Tobi to Naruto and Sasuke.  Literally nothing.  And i bet you Kishi will *force* some obscure connection when Tobi is finally revealed.  The whole thing screams unplanned, or at least rushed to the point of poor execution.



See what I said before.

Tobi caused the deaths of Naruto's parents and helped out with the extinction of the Uchiha clan.

These are extremely significant ties.



> Well to be fair Kishi has a propensity for hiding the obvious.  Remember how long it took him to reveal that Yondaime was Naruto's father?  We all frickin knew it, so him hiding Tobi's identity didnt seem a *clear* indication that it wasn't Madara.
> 
> Obviously it definitely wasn't Madara's body, the mystery was who's body it was.  But it was very possible, and widely supported, that Madara was simply using someone else's body, Obito being the most popular candidate.



Ever since we found out Tobi's been made of Zetsu goo the idea of him using a different body was ruled out. The debate over who Tobi is has primarily concerned his true identity.



> You can't outrule Tobi being Madara just yet.



I'm pretty sure I can given the implications of the last two chapters.


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## -Deidara- (Oct 21, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> My first choice of who Tobi is, as you all must know is Madara. I mean just from the dialogue said by characters such as Tobi and Itachi, it points towards him. Tobi is definitely a being made up of senju cells, and zetsu goo with a Sharingan. I mean it's very possible for Madara to seal away his chakra and create a being of himself. I mean the power of the sage, was that he could create shape and breath life in to the form and Edo Madara said he awakened his Rinnegan upon his death bed, Tobi is also quoted that the reason he fought Hashirama was to steal his cells. You can't outrule Tobi being Madara just yet.



remember how zetsu has always been around as long as madara? remember how zetsu always calls madara tobi? remember how zetsu says you can only count on yourself. he has no partner, he don't really wanna work with anyone.

zetsu touched madara and that conscious etc....

zetsu is the weed that keeps growing, hes responsible. look at the kisame clone it was kisame personailty. etc... 

zetsu is a mastermind, identity theft jutsu.

According to the Third Databook:
Zetsu's hobby is observing unique shinobi.
Zetsu wishes to fight people who are likely to leave behind a corpse that will make a good meal.
Zetsu's favourite food is "chewy" people, while his least favourites are konnyaku and jelly.
Zetsu's favourite phrase is "Independence unbending" (独立不撓, Dokuritsu Futō), which roughly means "The only one you can count on is yourself".
Wherever "Madara" is, Zetsu is never far behind.


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## tsukyomeitachi (Oct 21, 2011)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Itachi also installed a jutsu in a crow to activate when it saw Sasuke's MS, but it activated when it saw Itachi's MS...



I'm not sure what the best translation out there would be or what it says, but from the chapters read on Mangafox is this:

Link removed

so the crow was supposed to be activated by Itachi's eyes and thus there's no plothole/problem in what you're mentioning.


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## Shadow Slayer (Oct 21, 2011)

If Tobi is Madara then why did Tobi need to take pain's eye? Especially since Edo Madara has rinn eyes. Just saying


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## Gaiash (Oct 21, 2011)

Penance said:


> Obito's not too young...


Yes he is. The little we've seen behind the mask shows he's an old man, plus while they weren't in the same shot it seems pretty clear he's taller than Kakashi was during the Kyuubi attack.

All the Tobito theory ever had was the idea of them both having one eye on the same side of the face. Since then it's been confirmed he had another eye behind that mask in the fight with Konan that theory has nothing left. Obito was just some kid from the Uchiha clan to everyone except those close to him. Plus if Tobi were Obito we'd have more interaction between him and Kakashi.

The Tobito theory could have worked when we didn't know he was the big bad. When he was just a masked guy in Akatsuki. Now however he's one of the most powerful characters in the franchise.

Finally Madara knows who Tobi is. There is no reason for someone like Obito to be noteworthy to Madara. None.

If Tobi is any Uchiha that's meant to be dead it'll be Madara's brother. If not he's like Danzo, a non Uchiha that's using their eyes. Either way, not bloody Obito who he's nothing like.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

Gaiash said:


> Since then it's been confirmed he had another eye behind that mask in the fight with Konan that theory has nothing left.



You do realize that eye wasn't originally Tobi's, right?

He's been swapping out eyes for Izanagi fuel for a while now.


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## Escargon (Oct 21, 2011)

Hehehehehehe..


Please do explain why you think the full face is old. Kishi clearly shadowed Tobis half face. It could be someone else who have implanted some Madara DNA but at the same time, making it look older, maybe cause of some error or mixing both Senju and Uchiha DNA there. Wtf?

And the forehead has a bandage, maybe someone put information about the past there? Anythings possible in this manga after Oro came up<<


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## Gaiash (Oct 21, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> You do realize that eye wasn't originally Tobi's, right?
> 
> He's been swapping out eyes for Izanagi fuel for a while now.


Indeed but both eyes clearly belonged to the same person, they had the same sharingan. Thus the idea that he wore a mask with one eye hole because he had one eye was destroyed. I'm pretty certain both those eyes belonged to Madara. Meanwhile Madara is probably using his brother's eyes.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

Gaiash said:


> Indeed but it matched the eye that had an eye hole. Thus the idea that he wore a mask with one eye hole because he had one eye was destroyed. I'm pretty certain both those eyes belonged to Madara. Meanwhile Madara is probably using his brother's eyes.



No, that eye wasn't his, it came from his Sharingan collection. He sacrificed it for Izanagi. He did the same thing before to survive the Amaterasu from Sasuke. He's been transplanting eyes into his left eye socket for that reason for a while now.


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## Gaiash (Oct 21, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> No, that eye wasn't his, it came from his Sharingan collection. He sacrificed it for Izanagi. He did the same thing before to survive the Amaterasu from Sasuke. He's been transplanting eyes into his left eye socket for that reason for a while now.


Whoever's eyes they were they both matched. It wasn't two odd sharingan, it was two of the same sharingan. That is my point.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

Gaiash said:


> Whoever's eyes they were they both matched. It wasn't two odd sharingan, it was two of the same sharingan. That is my point.



How can you tell they were two of the same?

All Sharingan look alike.


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## Penance (Oct 21, 2011)

Disbelievers gonna disbelieve...


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## Gaiash (Oct 21, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> How can you tell they were two of the same?
> 
> All Sharingan look alike.


Either way he had another eye under the mask. The entire point of Tobito was that they believed he didn't have another eye.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

Gaiash said:


> Either way he had another eye under the mask. The entire point of Tobito was that they believed he didn't have another eye.



That eye isn't his though, it's just a random eye he transplanted so he could use Izanagi without frying his main Sharingan. Nothing about this contradicts the Tobito theory. In fact it favors it since Obito would naturally have a vacant left eye socket.


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## Gaiash (Oct 21, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> That eye isn't his though, it's just a random eye he transplanted so he could use Izanagi without frying his main Sharingan. Nothing about this contradicts the Tobito theory. In fact it favors it since Obito would naturally have a vacant left eye socket.


Ugh I give up. We could see edo tensei Obito (which wouldn't happen because he's not notable enough for Kabuto to use) and people would still say Tobi's Obito. Heck people are still saying he's Madara. This is why I don't like taking part in debates, eventually it just turns into "I'm right you're wrong" "No I'm the one who is right, you're talking out of your ass" etc.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

Gaiash said:


> Ugh I give up. We could see edo tensei Obito (which wouldn't happen because he's not notable enough for Kabuto to use) and people would still say Tobi's Obito.



No I'm pretty sure that would kill the theory. Just look at what Edo Madara's done to the idea that Tobi was Madara.



> Heck people are still saying he's Madara. This is why I don't like taking part in debates, eventually it just turns into "I'm right you're wrong" "No I'm the one who is right, you're talking out of your ass" etc.



I don't think it's come down to that. I've used evidence and reasoning to back up my claims.


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## gehad (Oct 21, 2011)

uggs nederland  

Tobi saying that the rinnegan where his to begin with , Madara saying that Nagato has grown alot since he thought that Nagato summoned him , Also During Tobi's fight with Konan he stated that he's uchiha madara with the power of Senju hashirama . I guess its getting more confusing don't you think .


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## MaskedMan88 (Oct 21, 2011)

This is it...

ZETSU IS OLD and IMMORTAL... 

He is a plant man that just manifests from the earth. 

He records and witnesses fights from afar.

BLACK ZETSU IS THE ORIGINAL.

WHITE ZETSU IS THE EXPERIMENT AFTER MADARA GOT THE 1ST's CELLS

black zetsu split himself in HALF and fused with white zetsu.

whenever madara is revealing a little of his face it is his right side... where the white zetsu would be.  

White ZETSU HAS THE ABILITY TO COPY EXACTLY WHAT MADARA LOOKS LIKE

TOBI is ZETSU right side white and left side black...

MADARA WAS KILLED BY TOBI

the plant zetsu we know is a recruit for tobi... and helped start Akatsuki

Tobi is a raving madman


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## Almondsand (Oct 21, 2011)

-Deidara- said:


> remember how zetsu has always been around as long as madara? remember how zetsu always calls madara tobi? remember how zetsu says you can only count on yourself. he has no partner, he don't really wanna work with anyone.
> 
> zetsu touched madara and that conscious etc....
> 
> ...



Actually Tobi and Zetsu considered eachother partners, also when Tobi was first introduce as a replacement for Sasori he was known as Zetsu subordinate. What I'm gathering from the details you listing down, is that you really believe Madara to be Zetsu.  I mean you're belief makes much more sense than it being Kagami and Obito, actually even more than Izuna. However, I disagree with it because Tobi is none other than Madara with a Zetsu Goo body and Senju cells.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 21, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Actually Tobi and Zetsu considered eachother partners, also when Tobi was first introduce as a replacement for Sasori he was known as Zetsu subordinate. What I'm gathering from the details you listing down, is that you really believe Madara to be Zetsu.  I mean you're belief makes much more sense than it being Kagami and Obito, actually even more than Izuna. However, I disagree with it because Tobi is none other than Madara with a Zetsu Goo body and Senju cells.



You can't resurrect someone with Edo Tensei without their complete soul. You can't be alive and dead at the same time. 

Also for the umpteenth time I make the argument that chapter 559 was devoted to giving evidence disproving that Tobi is Madara it makes absolutely no sense to think he's Madara regardless of past hints cause chapter 559 said wrong the hints were to fool you he's not Madara after all. It was a twist. He made people think he was Madara and then BAM chapter 559 came out and with it Kishi said  GOTCHA! it's not Madara after all, see he's dead. 

Also you can't put a soul where a soul is already. If someone is alive and has their own soul (Zetsu) they cannot have Madaras soul cause there is no room for Madaras soul.. Orochimaru killed and absorbed his victims bodies and wore them like skin he killed them to release their soul so that he could inhabit them.


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## Almondsand (Oct 21, 2011)

Kyokkai said:


> You can't resurrect someone with Edo Tensei without their complete soul. You can't be alive and dead at the same time.
> 
> Also for the umpteenth time I make the argument that chapter 559 was devoted to giving evidence disproving that Tobi is Madara it makes absolutely no sense to think he's Madara regardless of past hints cause chapter 559 said wrong the hints were to fool you he's not Madara after all. It was a twist. He made people think he was Madara and then BAM chapter 559 came out and with it Kishi said  GOTCHA! it's not Madara after all, see he's dead.
> 
> Also you can't put a soul where a soul is already. If someone is alive and has their own soul (Zetsu) they cannot have Madaras soul cause there is no room for Madaras soul.. Orochimaru killed and absorbed his victims bodies and wore them like skin he killed them to release their soul so that he could inhabit them.



*You're not Kishimoto*, so you saying Madara can't be alive and dead at the same time, is not credible. Ok chapter 559 made us all think, how can Madara be resurrected when he's alive but then _chapter 560 revealed the possibilities_. *Madara has the rinnegan, which he states he awakens in the last moments of his life*, I never said Tobi had a soul. *I was saying that Tobi is just Madara in altered state and form. * If Minato Namikaze can exist in Naruto's conciousness and his soul is sealed in the Death God's stomach, then I'm sure a *Uchiha Madara with the Power of a God* can do much more. Orochimaru didn't kill his victims, he absorbed them, you can see the people he's taken over in his dimension when he tries to take Sasuke's body.  Itachi has crows that carry on his will without him being there. He has them serve as mediums to do his bidding just with his chakra. I mean if Itachi can summon himself with just using crows and chakra as a medium then why can't *Madara with the Power of a God* exist both in the living and be dead.


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## Killer Zylos Wolf (Oct 21, 2011)

I say Madara made Tobi with the help of Zetsu.

Madara knew he couldn't live forever so he made Tobi to carry out his plans and one day revive him.

Tobi is just a robot type of thing, made with some Zetsuness, and has all the memories and whatnot of Madara.

So while Tobi isn't necessarily Madara, he still acted as if he was because that's what his reason for being built was for.


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## AMtrack (Oct 21, 2011)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Itachi also installed a jutsu in a crow to activate when it saw Sasuke's MS, but it activated when it saw Itachi's MS...



LOL touche, although actually he set it up so they would activate upon seeing Itachi's eyes (the ones Sasuke stole).



First Tsurugi said:


> You're making the same assumption everyone in the manga made, that only Madara was capable of such power.



This wasn't an assumption, the manga outright stated it to be so...that *only* Madara could so such things.  How is that an assumption?  The only Uchiha name you heard for 3/4ths of the current manga is Madara.



> Tobi's feats, powers, and hype speaks for themselves.



A lot of his hype came from being Madara need I remind you.  Besides that, the only thing that made Tobi hax was his space-time abilities.  Which btw, was said only Madara could be capable of.  Tobi by himself is a nobody.



> Are you forgetting that he was responsible for the Kyuubi attack and had a hand in the Uchiha Massacre?



Pein destroyed Konoha by himself.  Does that make him a final villain?  No.  And he arguably did much more damage than Tobi ever did.  I dont consider setting a bijuu loose final villain material.  Juubi is obviously an exception.



> He was behind arguably the two most significant events in the manga.
> 
> How is that not relevant?



Imo a great deal of relevance came from the idea that he was Madara.  Madara *was* the Uchiha plot for pretty much the whole story.  The attacks by themselves mean something, but they are no longer *as* relevant when they no longer contain Madara's backstory to go with them.  Instead of revenge from the Uchiha leader, its now random Uchiha attacking Konoha.  Not as significant imo.



> How was it too much?
> 
> Minato wasn't even sure that Tobi was Madara. He referred to him simply as "the masked man" more than once, again another forewarning of the revelation to come.



Its my opinion, like most of this.  However he was set up to be Madara in some form for quite a while now.  His knowledge, his level of ability, the way he told Nagato that he gave him his eyes, his quest to become whole again, i mean cmon man.  Kishi laid that shit on so thick it was ridiculous.  




> The "Madara" Itachi referred to was Tobi. I don't see any problems with how it was presented.



I think its clear we have different standards.




> Tobi caused the deaths of Naruto's parents and helped out with the extinction of the Uchiha clan.



Yes, but the plot is about so much more than that now. You're right it does tie him to the main characters.  But not in the same way Madara would have.



> Ever since we found out Tobi's been made of Zetsu goo the idea of him using a different body was ruled out. The debate over who Tobi is has primarily concerned his true identity.



I don't see how Zetsu goo makes much of a difference, in any case there are no significant Uchihas that could take Madara's place as final villain.  Thats mostly why its a terrible twist.  You can say Izuna/Kagami/insert guy here all you want, but they are more or less nobodies right now.

Ive seen this kinda twist done before, not saying these kinds of twists aren't good at all.  What I *am* saying is that forcing an unknown into final villain is terrible writing.



> I'm pretty sure I can given the implications of the last two chapters.



Well whatever floats your boat lol


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

AMtrack said:


> This wasn't an assumption, the manga outright stated it to be so...that *only* Madara could so such things.  How is that an assumption?  The only Uchiha name you heard for 3/4ths of the current manga is Madara.



But it is assumption.

Why do we believe that Madara is the only one capable of doing these things?

Because characters like Jiraiya and Minato came to that same conclusion when thinking about who it could be that did those things. This is why it has been so easy for Tobi to pass himself off as being Madara.



> A lot of his hype came from being Madara need I remind you.  Besides that, the only thing that made Tobi hax was his space-time abilities.  Which btw, was said only Madara could be capable of.  Tobi by himself is a nobody.



It was never said that only Madara was capable of Tobi's space time abilities. The only thing that was said about it was that the Second Hokage also had a space time jutsu like Tobi's.

I think you need to reread the manga and remember exactly what Tobi himself has done. Because it is quite a lot at this point.



> Pein destroyed Konoha by himself.  Does that make him a final villain?  No.  And he arguably did much more damage than Tobi ever did.  I dont consider setting a bijuu loose final villain material.  Juubi is obviously an exception.



Tobi is the one behind Pain. Minato made it a point to say Pain was being manipulated by Tobi. So Pain's deeds transfer over to Tobi.



> Imo a great deal of relevance came from the idea that he was Madara.  Madara *was* the Uchiha plot for pretty much the whole story.  The attacks by themselves mean something, but they are no longer *as* relevant when they no longer contain Madara's backstory to go with them.  Instead of revenge from the Uchiha leader, its now random Uchiha attacking Konoha.  Not as significant imo.



Well I disagree. I don't think the identity of Madara contributes much at all. I think the acts are significant enough that they can stand on their own.



> Its my opinion, like most of this.  However he was set up to be Madara in some form for quite a while now.  His knowledge, his level of ability, the way he told Nagato that he gave him his eyes, his quest to become whole again, i mean cmon man.  Kishi laid that shit on so thick it was ridiculous.



Kishi set it up to make you THINK he was Madara. But he also left plenty of hints that indicated otherwise.



> I think its clear we have different standards.



Evidently so. To be fair I have been operating under the assumption of Tobi not being Madara for quite some time now.



> Yes, but the plot is about so much more than that now. You're right it does tie him to the main characters.  But not in the same way Madara would have.



What does Madara contribute exactly?

What Tobi's done affects Naruto and Sasuke on a much more personal level, making for deeper connections than some overarching concept of an "ancient evil".



> I don't see how Zetsu goo makes much of a difference, in any case there are no significant Uchihas that could take Madara's place as final villain.  Thats mostly why its a terrible twist.  You can say Izuna/Kagami/insert guy here all you want, but they are more or less nobodies right now.



Whoever Tobi is he is certainly not a nobody. His exploits as Tobi will make him significant no matter who his true identity is.



> Ive seen this kinda twist done before, not saying these kinds of twists aren't good at all.  What I *am* saying is that forcing an unknown into final villain is terrible writing.



And I'm saying it's not an unknown. We've been familiar with Tobi for a long time now. We've learned what he's done in the past, and seen what he continues to do. Whoever Tobi is will automatically have those accomplishments to his credit.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 21, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> *You're not Kishimoto*, so you saying Madara can't be alive and dead at the same time, is not credible. Ok chapter 559 made us all think, how can Madara be resurrected when he's alive but then _chapter 560 revealed the possibilities_. *Madara has the rinnegan, which he states he awakens in the last moments of his life*, I never said Tobi had a soul. *I was saying that Tobi is just Madara in altered state and form. * If Minato Namikaze can exist in Naruto's conciousness and his soul is sealed in the Death God's stomach, then I'm sure a *Uchiha Madara with the Power of a God* can do much more. Orochimaru didn't kill his victims, he absorbed them, you can see the people he's taken over in his dimension when he tries to take Sasuke's body.  Itachi has crows that carry on his will without him being there. He has them serve as mediums to do his bidding just with his chakra. I mean if Itachi can summon himself with just using crows and chakra as a medium then why can't *Madara with the Power of a God* exist both in the living and be dead.



*It's ridiculous deus ex machina to have a character shown dead and then be both alive and dead in another chapter.* Tobi cannot be Madara in any other form than from cells cause Madara is dead. Minato used a jutsu to relay a message to naruto he was not revived... Madara is not that much more hyped than Minato e-o Orochimaru does kill them, are you alive if your soul is not in control? No I think not. 

Madara simply can't be dead and alive because after chapter 559 it would be a ridiculous deus ex machina asspull to explain how he's not dead. 

I for one have confidence that Kishi wouldn't just throw in something to explain how the revelation in chapter 559 was just another hah I was just pulling your leg he's actually alive and dead at the same time.  

Chapter 559 introduced this twist are you saying he's going to go back on this twist and then say Madara isn't really dead? What kind of asinine writing would that be even in a fantasy world? Unless you plan on making a manga in which you do *not* wish to be taken seriously then you need *some* restrictions on death, being dead and alive is where you would draw the line particularly if you reveal a character to be dead and then take it back and use that as an explanation. 

Plenty of ninja have "godly" powers and guess what they're either alive or dead not both.


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## kairo14 (Oct 21, 2011)

It?s Madara, at least in part. Minto, Jiraiya, itachi, Sharkface, and even the nine tail fox all concluded it is madara.  The Fox when he saw Sause in Naruto?s mind said only the eyes of madara were as evil and powerful enough to control him, so whoever Tobi is he has madara?s eye(S) for it controlled the Fox to attack the village.  Also he knows too much about madara, the clan?s secrets and the secrets of the origin of the eyes.   There are two copies of Itachi?s eyes right now in the manga, Itachi?s resurrected body and with the Sauce. The same is likely with Madara.  With all the information Tobi has, it is either Madara, someone very old, or it could be someone who was close to Madara, like his brother who, through the pain of death and war, went crazy, took Madara?s eyes and now wants to mind-rape the world into world-peace.  It does seem evident the way, Tobi-Madara ripped off his arm when Danzo?s  guard infected it, it looked like Zetzu material, that it is possible Madara, with his body greatly damaged from his last fight with the First H. that he had His eyes transplanted himself or someone into a Zetsu body. 
 Now, what that all means, whether we still call his guy Madara or not, I guess we will find out.


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## Superstars (Oct 21, 2011)

Tobi > Madara...we know it's truth.


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## Saru (Oct 21, 2011)

> What I *am* saying is that forcing an unknown into final villain is terrible writing.



Who says Tobi will be the FV? 

I seriously hope he ends up being the Elder Son... Somehow, someway.


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## Kimimaro-kun (Oct 21, 2011)

I still think Tobi is Izuna.


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## God (Oct 21, 2011)

It could be.. But I doubt it, as Izuna is missing a Sharingan and Tobi showed one in both eyes.


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 21, 2011)

Cubey said:


> It could be.. But I doubt it, as Izuna is missing a Sharingan and Tobi showed one in both eyes.



How many times am I going to have to repeat myself?

The second Sharingan wasn't his, it was just a random Sharingan from his collection he used for Izanagi.


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## Kimimaro-kun (Oct 22, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> The second Sharingan wasn't his, it was just a random Sharingan from his collection he used for Izanagi.




You beat me to it. He has a whole collection of sharingan so he just could've taken one of them to replace his missing eye/s.


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## thepowerofscience (Oct 22, 2011)

just one simple question did tobi ever has his sharingan off ? 
if I recall correctly we never saw his eyes normal so he isn't an uchiha


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## Saru (Oct 22, 2011)

Kimimaro-kun said:


> I still think Tobi is Izuna.



That's what I thought initially, but if it were Izuna, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Even Kagami seems almost too obvious now...  As there have been very few hints in the story pointing to Tobi = Elder Son, the Elder Son being Tobi would be a believable, yet surprising twist in the story, in my opinion. 

If it did end up being him, Tobi would have to dredge up all of that prehistory concerning the Uchiha, the Senju, and Rikudou Sennin [and the Juubi?], and the Elder Son would be a convenient means of relaying this information; and Madara, who still has a lot to tell us about Tobi, would still get to show off his skill in battle, and enlighten the alliance about the true nature of his legendary battle with Hashirama.

These really specific thoeries people are creating... They aren't very flexible. Are any of us really going to be able to predict the identity _and_ the background of Tobi? As evidenced by similar degrees of inaccurate foresight (on the whole) in the cases of Itachi Uchiha, Itachi's "power" (A.K.A. Shisui's power), and the night of the Kyuubi attack... No.

Unless, of course, the manga really has become _that_ predictable.


----------



## Nep Nep (Oct 22, 2011)

thepowerofscience said:


> just one simple question did tobi ever has his sharingan off ?
> if I recall correctly we never saw his eyes normal so he isn't an uchiha



True but leaving Sharingan on at all times and *not* being an Uchiha is detrimental to your chakra. Kakashi's Sharingan is always on but it's hidden, Tobi always has one Sharingan exposed and activated, therefore if he wasn't an Uchiha the chakra drain would eventually kill him off.


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## Yaypie (Oct 22, 2011)

My best guess for now is still Madara's younger brother, cause it would be hella ironic for him to take up the mantle. Madara's brother would be p.o.d. at the Uchiha clan for what they did to his brother, so at the very least he's got motive in check. Fakedara seems to hate Konoha quite intimately, so I believe he has a history in part that has yet to be revealed. And he's also someone that can't get over the past, screams old, even if he escaped the aging process.

I wonder if he used a method similar to Kakuzu who also escaped aging to some degree...


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## Kimimaro-kun (Oct 22, 2011)

Viridium said:


> That's what I thought initially, but if it were Izuna, I wouldn't be surprised at all. Even Kagami seems almost too obvious now...  As there have been very few hints in the story pointing to Tobi = Elder Son, the Elder Son being Tobi would be a believable, yet surprising twist in the story, in my opinion.
> 
> If it did end up being him, Tobi would have to dredge up all of that prehistory concerning the Uchiha, the Senju, and Rikudou Sennin [and the Juubi?], and the Elder Son would be a convenient means of relaying this information; and Madara, who still has a lot to tell us about Tobi, would still get to show off his skill in battle, and enlighten the alliance about the true nature of his legendary battle with Hashirama.
> 
> ...




Rikudou's elder son? He should've been dead for at least a thousand years now, wasn't Rikudou an old legend even for Fukasaku? And Fukasaku's like 800 years old or something. And why Kagami? He's just a fodder with a name, no personality, no background, no conections, nothing. I don't see why he's such an obvious possibility. 




Yaypie said:


> My best guess for now is still Madara's younger brother, cause it would be hella ironic for him to take up the mantle. Madara's brother would be p.o.d. at the Uchiha clan for what they did to his brother, so at the very least he's got motive in check. Fakedara seems to hate Konoha quite intimately, so I believe he has a history in part that has yet to be revealed. And he's also someone that can't get over the past, screams old, even if he escaped the aging process.
> 
> I wonder if he used a method similar to Kakuzu who also escaped aging to some degree...




The younger brother surpasses the older brother. Sounds like a nice drama. I like it.


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## gehad (Oct 22, 2011)

Couldn't Madara have used a Genjutsu all that time to like somehow trick this technique in someway just like Itachi did ? i don't know about you guys but i have a strong he's madara .


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## Undead (Oct 22, 2011)

Tobi is Zetsu. Everyone is Zetsu.


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## gehad (Oct 22, 2011)

*YOU?KILL HIM?* 

Take a look at this , Kisame was the only one to see MAdara or lets say Tobi when he was still in the mist village which means it was from some time , Look at how Madara appeared from the shadows and had long hair , Kisame is the only one who saw him twice and 2nd time recognized him as madara after cutting his hair .


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 22, 2011)

gehad said:


> *YOU?KILL HIM?*
> 
> Take a look at this , Kisame was the only one to see MAdara or lets say Tobi when he was still in the mist village which means it was from some time , Look at how Madara appeared from the shadows and had long hair , Kisame is the only one who saw him twice and 2nd time recognized him as madara after cutting his hair .



Ugh. Kisame associates that face with the name of Madara, but that figure isn't the true Madara.

The proof is in the fact that we never see his face.


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## Algol (Oct 22, 2011)

OBITO!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pilko (Oct 22, 2011)

it is tobimaru


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## oricon (Oct 22, 2011)

Saru Goob said:


> Tobi is Zetsu. Everyone is Zetsu.



I actually think hes the original Zetsu the others are just clones of him lol.


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## gehad (Oct 22, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> Ugh. Kisame associates that face with the name of Madara, but that figure isn't the true Madara.
> 
> The proof is in the fact that we never see his face.



You can't see his face but you can see the whole body with the long hair style which is like old madara's shape


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## SmarterThanYou (Oct 22, 2011)

Man, Hidan had you guys going didn't he?

HES BACK!


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## Saru (Oct 22, 2011)

> Rikudou's elder son? He should've been dead for at least a thousand years now, wasn't Rikudou an old legend even for Fukasaku? And Fukasaku's like 800 years old or something. And why Kagami? He's just a fodder with a name, no personality, no background, no conections, nothing. I don't see why he's such an obvious possibility.



Kagami was a part of a team led by Tobirama, who was supposedly known for his S/T jutsu. Danzo Shimura and the council elders of Konoha were also members of this team, and Kagami has a clear connection to Konoha and Hashirama. In addition, Kagami was an Uchiha, meaning he had lived *at the same time as Madara*. For how many people can we say the same? One: Izuna Uchiha, who has an _obvious_ connection to his *brother* (I mean, really, he has to be the _most obvious_ candidate).

Honestly... I don't think a majority of us will be able to guess _who_ he is, much less validate some long, complex theory on _how_ he is, or why he came to be. All you need to be a candidate now is an Uchiha, pretty much... Which he better be 

I'm still all for Kagami, though.


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## Almondsand (Oct 22, 2011)

Kyokkai said:


> *It's ridiculous deus ex machina to have a character shown dead and then be both alive and dead in another chapter.* Tobi cannot be Madara in any other form than from cells cause Madara is dead. Minato used a jutsu to relay a message to naruto he was not revived... Madara is not that much more hyped than Minato e-o Orochimaru does kill them, are you alive if your soul is not in control? No I think not.
> 
> Madara simply can't be dead and alive because after chapter 559 it would be a ridiculous deus ex machina asspull to explain how he's not dead.
> 
> ...



When you are God or have powers of a God, restrictions do not exist. Powers of a god means you can do whatever the hell you want, you can die "sleep" and be revived by yourself, because guess what you are a *fucking* God. Stop smelling the girl underwear you banged a month ago and look at the other possible options. It will make perfect sense for Tobi to be Madara in some way or another, Madara has the rinnegan where you can transcend and combine life and death. It will be deus ex machina if Tobi is Kagami, Izuna, or Obito because it won't make sense like it would if it's one of the baddest legendary shinobi to ever exist; Uchiha Madara. I see you keep making reference to 559, but guess what 560 just open the door to what Madara can do, if he can summon a comet then I say he can be Tobi too.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 22, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> When you are God or have powers of a God, restrictions do not exist. Powers of a god means you can do whatever the hell you want, you can die "sleep" and be revived by yourself, because guess what you are a *fucking* God. *Stop smelling the girl underwear you banged a month ago* and look at the other possible options. It will make perfect sense for Tobi to be Madara in some way or another, Madara has the rinnegan where you can transcend and combine life and death. It will be deus ex machina if Tobi is Kagami, Izuna, or Obito because it won't make sense like it would if it's one of the baddest legendary shinobi to ever exist; Uchiha Madara. I see you keep making reference to 559, but guess what 560 just open the door to what Madara can do, if he can summon a comet then I say he can be Tobi too.



Dude seriously? O-o for you to even come up with that insult shows creepy insight to your life that I don't wish to delve into further. 

Anyways god characters that defy death? Why the hell din't Rikudou Sennin say fuck you to death than? He's the *real* god in this bloody manga. 

I can put 560 too you know what? He's still dead in that chapter too. Simple stuff here. If the *real* god of ninja didn't say huh screw death I can live forever than Madara didn't either idc if he's the final villain chapter 559 made a point and unless I SEE him revive himself or say outright that Tobi is part of him I'm not gonna buy it.  

Oh and "*Stop smelling the girl underwear you banged a month ago*"?

Not cool dude :/ I thought you were above that but I guess not, calm down this is a debate and not everyone is gonna see it your way and saying stuff like that certainly isn't gonna help.


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## Scaythe (Oct 22, 2011)

why cant tobi be obito and someone else- I mean orochimaru used to switch bodies- Zetsu finds a dying obito- bam revived by zetsu possessed by tobi (whoever he really is, my guess is izuna) and that explains why his hair was different when he met itachi.  My theory is his mask changes everytime he changes bodies- so he is no longer obito but switched bodies into someone else.  Just a thought.


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## Asura (Oct 22, 2011)

Is the *Kagami* theory acceptable? 
Because when Danzo fought Sasuke, Tobi said "long time no see, Danzo", makes sense
if he's a former squad member of his, otherwise, how would madara know about Danzo?
(unless Tobi is some other Konoha ninja, might be Shisui)

*Zetsu*
When he tore off his hand, it was clearly not human


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## Almondsand (Oct 22, 2011)

Kyokkai said:


> Dude seriously? O-o for you to even come up with that insult shows creepy insight to your life that I don't wish to delve into further.
> 
> Anyways god characters that defy death? Why the hell din't Rikudou Sennin say fuck you to death than? He's the *real* god in this bloody manga.
> 
> ...



Ok, my choice of words were pretty emotional, I try to invoke emphasis in to making my point. The line "stop smelling the girl underwear you banged a month ago" was me trying to illustrate how stuck you are on the last chapter.  I'm telling you to move on, it's not helping because as soon as Rinnegan Madara appeared in 560 and made the line " I awakened these eyes shortly before I died", then summoned a comet I was convinced.  I'm pretty sure in his dying breaths, he was able to at least make a clone of some sort from Zetsu goo.

I'm not telling you to see it my way, I'm just trying to conceptualize the possible explanation of how Madara did it.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Oct 22, 2011)

Why are people arguing? Not long ago the "academics" on this site were saying it was moronic to suggest Tobi was anyone but Madara...how did that work out? Their is no real way of knowing who Tobi really is. Instead of shouting the odds one way or the other make your opinion then sod off. Toddle on back in a few weeks time and see if you're right or not. Coz at this point I see most ideas as concieveable.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 22, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Ok, my choice of words were pretty emotional, I try to invoke emphasis in to making my point. The line "stop smelling the girl underwear you banged a month ago" was me trying to illustrate how stuck you are on the last chapter.  I'm telling you to move on, it's not helping because as soon as Rinnegan Madara appeared in 560 and made the line " I awakened these eyes shortly before I died", then summoned a comet I was convinced.  I'm pretty sure in his dying breaths, he was able to at least make a clone of some sort from Zetsu goo.
> 
> I'm not telling you to see it my way, I'm just trying to conceptualize the possible explanation of how Madara did it.



Let's just agree to disagree then, there's no way no matter how many facts we throw at each other that either of us will even consider agreeing. So I call truce. Cause just as 560 convinced you and many others, 559 convinced me and the rest of the opposite.


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## Degauss (Oct 22, 2011)

Viridium said:


> Kagami was a part of a team led by Tobirama, who was supposedly known for his S/T jutsu. Danzo Shimura and the council elders of Konoha were also members of this team, and Kagami has a clear connection to Konoha and Hashirama. In addition, Kagami was an Uchiha, meaning he had lived at the same time as Madara. For how many people can we say the same? One: Izuna Uchiha, who has an _obvious_ connection to his brother[ (I mean, really, he has to be the _most obvious_ candidate).
> 
> Honestly... I don't think a majority of us will be able to guess _who_ he is, much less validate some long, complex theory on _how_ he is, or why he came to be. *All you need to be a candidate now is an Uchiha, pretty much...* Which he better be
> 
> I'm still all for Kagami, though.



I think this is axactly what Kishi wants us to think. Tobi=Uchiha.
If you look at the fundament of the manga, one ting is clear. It's Elder son vs Younger son= Uciha vs Senju.( Madara vs Hashirama or Naruo vs Sasuke). 

Madara is now on the battlefield, i doubt his enemy (Tobi) will be an uchiha. Kishi knows everyone is expecting that. Why not make a Senju a bad guy for once. Tobirama is the best choice.


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## Almondsand (Oct 22, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> Why are people arguing? Not long ago the "academics" on this site were saying it was moronic to suggest Tobi was anyone but Madara...how did that work out? Their is no real way of knowing who Tobi really is. Instead of shouting the odds one way or the other make your opinion then sod off. Toddle on back in a few weeks time and see if you're right or not. Coz at this point I see most ideas as concieveable.



I see most ideas inconcieveable, it's best if people debate about this before it's revealed.  That is why most people have joined a forum devoted to the manga, so they can express what they see possibly happening. A forum is just that an ongoing conversation that is filled with speculation and personal opinions. You don't have to engage in the conversation, which I usually do if I agree with all sides or simply don't have a good point.  This is the biggest debate in the manga community as of right now, so let the members express their views, its what keeps them coming back.   



Kyokkai said:


> Let's just agree to disagree then, there's no way no matter how many facts we throw at each other that either of us will even consider agreeing. So I call truce. Cause just as 560 convinced you and many others, 559 convinced me and the rest of the opposite.



All I really got from you is that you do not believe Tobi is Madara, I never heard who you think he actually is. Ok you have a right to your opinion, and you have the right not to debate about this anymore.


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## Almondsand (Oct 22, 2011)

Degauss said:


> I think this is axactly what Kishi wants us to think. Tobi=Uchiha.
> If you look at the fundament of the manga, one ting is clear. It's Elder son vs Younger son= Uciha vs Senju.( Madara vs Hashirama or Naruo vs Sasuke).
> 
> Madara is now on the battlefield, i doubt his enemy (Tobi) will be an uchiha. Kishi knows everyone is expecting that. Why not make a Senju a bad guy for once. Tobirama is the best choice.



Tobirama have grayish white hair.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 22, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> All I really got from you is that you do not believe Tobi is Madara, I never heard who you think he actually is. Ok you have a right to your opinion, and you have the right not to debate about this anymore.



You're quite right, the reason you got that from me is because I find myself unable to choose between Izuna, Obito, Kagami, etc. I simply don't believe that Tobi=Madara but I do believe there's a few other people he could be, which is why I don't name a specific one. In any case good luck with your future debates. 

I'm very indecisive so I probably won't choose between them but if I had to choose which one I think is most logical out of all the choices and not necessarily believe he is only this person in my opinion I might say Izuna.


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## VTsop (Oct 22, 2011)

I think his brother , not sure for that!


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## Nathan Copeland (Oct 22, 2011)

It Has Been In Our Face This Entire Time But I have Finally Figured it out

Tobi, The Man Who Claims to be Madara Uchiha Is

Okay so Here are the facts to prove that Tobi is Izuna


1.  

It syas Both Obtained The Power Of The Mangekyo Sharingan, But we Never Seen Tobi's Sharingan???


2.  [sp][/sp]

My Power!, Uchiha Madara's Power, Just Why Would Tobi Say This. . . 


3. 
Madara Takes Izuna's Eyes Because He was Desprate



He Then Become Powerful, Thus Making Why Tobi said

"My Power (Izuna's Eyes) Uchiha Madara's Power (Madara's EMS)

4. [sp][/sp]

The Way He Clenched When He Said Izuna Was Okay With Giving Up His Eyes


5. 





			
				Kishi said:
			
		

> Izuna later died honourably in battle, fighting to the death even in his blind state





Izuna Does Not have a Normal Body, We See That He Regenerated with a Zetsu Spore Plant and he could have faked his death and probally was waiting for Nagato to use Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique for his Original Body

Well Thats All I Have For The Mean Time also w should put in a fact why he hates The uchiha clan, he did help itachi to slay them


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## Devrim (Oct 22, 2011)

its either izuna, rikudo or zetsu/madara clone.
/thread
called it.


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## Penance (Oct 22, 2011)

Scaythe said:


> why cant tobi be obito and someone else- I mean orochimaru used to switch bodies- Zetsu finds a dying obito- bam revived by zetsu possessed by tobi (whoever he really is, my guess is izuna) and that explains why his hair was different when he met itachi.  My theory is his mask changes everytime he changes bodies- so he is no longer obito but switched bodies into someone else.  Just a thought.



Totally just Obito...


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## -Deidara- (Oct 22, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Actually Tobi and Zetsu considered eachother partners, also when Tobi was first introduce as a replacement for Sasori he was known as Zetsu subordinate. What I'm gathering from the details you listing down, is that you really believe Madara to be Zetsu.  I mean you're belief makes much more sense than it being Kagami and Obito, actually even more than Izuna. However, I disagree with it because Tobi is none other than Madara with a Zetsu Goo body and Senju cells.



ur funny.

zetsu quotes. tobi is a good boy after all. when he accepts him in the akatsuki. so quickly. and without much depth. 

how would he know that. it sounds premeditated. 

think a little more.


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## mo3mon3y (Oct 22, 2011)

I think it's izuna now too, sigh what a waste of time, for the last 100 chapters all that was talked about was Madara this and that ... And he's not even Madara


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## -Deidara- (Oct 22, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Actually Tobi and Zetsu considered eachother partners, also when Tobi was first introduce as a replacement for Sasori he was known as Zetsu subordinate. What I'm gathering from the details you listing down, is that you really believe Madara to be Zetsu.  I mean you're belief makes much more sense than it being Kagami and Obito, actually even more than Izuna. However, I disagree with it because Tobi is none other than Madara with a Zetsu Goo body and Senju cells.



plus you ignore my databook evidence. typical human behavior. ignorance is bliss. no far from it


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## knowmonsta (Oct 22, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> So Obito had a complete personality turn-around, got a new brain, and developed a disturbing fetish for a dead guy he never met by the name of Hashirama?




MTE. Obito can't be Tobi.


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## Almondsand (Oct 23, 2011)

Kyokkai said:


> You're quite right, the reason you got that from me is because I find myself unable to choose between Izuna, Obito, Kagami, etc. I simply don't believe that Tobi=Madara but I do believe there's a few other people he could be, which is why I don't name a specific one. In any case good luck with your future debates.
> 
> I'm very indecisive so I probably won't choose between them but if I had to choose which one I think is most logical out of all the choices and not necessarily believe he is only this person in my opinion I might say Izuna.



I don't understand why people actually believe this guy is Obito, even after seeing the evidence of aging on Tobi's face. I mean seriously this is supposed to be Kakashi's peer and he aged considerably at a much faster rate than Kakashi it seems. I give you Izuna, as the most believeable out of the three but that very much a long shot, saying that lightly.



-Deidara- said:


> ur funny.
> 
> zetsu quotes. tobi is a good boy after all. when he accepts him in the akatsuki. so quickly. and without much depth.
> 
> ...





-Deidara- said:


> plus you ignore my databook evidence. typical human behavior. ignorance is bliss. no far from it



You don't make any sense, if you actually learn the syntax of the English language maybe I'll get a better grasp on what you are trying to express. 

Seriously speaking, databook sometimes just make people run in to a dead end, and I actually don't see what your intent with the databook information you posted was. All you did was put down Zetsu's databook profile, with no direction. It's like a lawyer coming to court with evidence but don't know wether he is trying to convict or defend, and you definitely didn't have a statement of any kind. I gathered however, that you actually believe that Tobi can possibly be Zetsu and commended you on actually being original for bringing Zetsu in to the possible candidates. However, I also gave my opinion on the possibility on him not being so. Tobi as you can see is a seperate entity from Zetsu, they call eachother partner. Also Tobi uses S/T ninjustsu to get around, he doesn't fuse into the earth and travel to location to location. Now Tobi does seem to have some Zetsu material as a body, but his mental shows that he is entirely seperate entity.


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## fukkengan (Oct 23, 2011)

I am pretty sure its Nawaki, the hair fits, he should be old by now, his personality also fits, and its one of those characters we all forget about but that are very important in the plot.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 23, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> I don't understand why people actually believe this guy is Obito, even after seeing the evidence of aging on Tobi's face. I mean seriously this is supposed to be Kakashi's peer and he aged considerably at a much faster rate than Kakashi it seems. I give you Izuna, as the most believeable out of the three but that very much a long shot, saying that lightly.




I think Obito is probable but not highly so, Izuna is definitely my top choice in any case I'm interested to see why you think even Izuna is a long shot? 

@Fukkengan *very* interesting indeed that actually sounds quite probable! +reps!


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## Greidy (Oct 23, 2011)

fukkengan said:


> I am pretty sure its Nawaki, the hair fits



No, it doesn't.

Tobi has black hair, Nawaki's hair is light brown if I'm not mistaking.


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## Almondsand (Oct 23, 2011)

Kyokkai said:


> I think Obito is probable but not highly so, Izuna is definitely my top choice in any case I'm interested to see why you think even Izuna is a long shot?




Izuna was said to have been killed before Konoha has been found, no one in the manga even indicate that he can possibly exist. I mean Izuna is Madara's brother, his closest blood relative, I'm sure the Tsuchikage who have said he fought him would had known that he had a living brother. I'm also sure that, there would have been some record in Konoha that even the elders would had given reason for them to think Tobi was somebody other than Uchiha Madara. I mean Danzou didn't even question wether Tobi was Madara or not, and we all know that was in co-horts together during the Uchiha Massacre. Going by what was revealed of Tobi's face, we see characteristics of his face that is very similar to Madara's. Prominently the bags underneath their eyes, I never seen Izuna with this characteristic he has a look akin to sasuke's. I do not know how to upload images but I implore you to look at instances of where a part of Tobi face is revealed. Then I want you to compare it to Madara's face explicitly his eyes.


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## Yuna (Oct 23, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Izuna was said to have been killed before Konoha has been found, no one in the manga even indicate that he can possibly exist. I mean Izuna is Madara's brother, his closest blood relative, I'm sure the Tsuchikage who have said he fought him would had known that he had a living brother. I'm also sure that, there would have been some record in Konoha that even the elders would had given reason for them to think Tobi was somebody other than Uchiha Madara. I mean Danzou didn't even question wether Tobi was Madara or not, and we all know that was in co-horts together during the Uchiha Massacre. Going by what was revealed of Tobi's face, we see characteristics of his face that is very similar to Madara's. Prominently the bags underneath their eyes, I never seen Izuna with this characteristic he has a look akin to sasuke's. I do not know how to upload images but I implore you to look at instances of where a part of Tobi face is revealed. Then I want you to compare it to Madara's face explicitly his eyes.


It is entirely feasible for Tobi to be Izuna if we are to go by the shots of Tobi's partially revealed face.

Izuna and Madara had *identical* eyes except Madara had bags under his. Keep in mind that Izuna would ancient by now, so those bags could just be wrinkles. Tobi's eyes indicate he's either Madara, Izuna or a direct descendant of either.


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## Almondsand (Oct 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> It is entirely feasible for Tobi to be Izuna if we are to go by the shots of Tobi's partially revealed face.
> 
> Izuna and Madara had *identical* eyes except Madara had bags under his. Keep in mind that Izuna would ancient by now, so those bags could just be wrinkles. Tobi's eyes indicate he's either Madara, Izuna or a direct descendant of either.



Izuna never had the characteristic of bags under his eyes that Madara and Tobi showcases. How is it feasible from what we saw of Tobi's face that he's Izuna? A person doesn't get bags under their eyes from aging, they get wrinkles not bags. Seriously Tobi and Madara share the same facial characteristics, Tobi just have wrinkled bags and Edo Madara still have a youthful appearance to his. Tobi being a direct descendant of eithier is plausible but it will simply not make any sense, I mean I'm sure Danzou would had some doubt to Tobi identifying himself as Madara and then bring up who possibly can be.


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## Yuna (Oct 23, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Izuna never had the characteristic of bags under his eyes that Madara and Tobi showcases. How is it feasible from what we saw of Tobi's face that he's Izuna? *A person doesn't get bags under their eyes from aging, they get wrinkles not bags*.


"Keep in mind that Izuna would ancient by now, *so those bags could just be wrinkles*."



Almondsand said:


> Seriously Tobi and Madara share the same facial characteristics, Tobi just have wrinkled bags


How can you know those are bags and not wrinkles? Could be either by the looks of it.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 23, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> Izuna was said to have been killed before Konoha has been found, no one in the manga even indicate that he can possibly exist. I mean Izuna is Madara's brother, his closest blood relative, I'm sure the Tsuchikage who have said he fought him would had known that he had a living brother. I'm also sure that, there would have been some record in Konoha that even the elders would had given reason for them to think Tobi was somebody other than Uchiha Madara. I mean Danzou didn't even question wether Tobi was Madara or not, and we all know that was in co-horts together during the Uchiha Massacre. Going by what was revealed of Tobi's face, we see characteristics of his face that is very similar to Madara's. Prominently the bags underneath their eyes, I never seen Izuna with this characteristic he has a look akin to sasuke's. I do not know how to upload images but I implore you to look at instances of where a part of Tobi face is revealed. Then I want you to compare it to Madara's face explicitly his eyes.



The problem is that it's said from characters that don't always tell the truth so it's not as solid as it could be.  
Some kind of record? What kind of record exactly?  
Why would Danzo question whether Tobi was Madara or not? He was wearing a mask like Madara, and he had Sharingan like Madara and he's on the opposing side of Konoha like Madara, that's enough to say this guy is possibly Madara, all Danzo really knew was I gotta beat this guy before he takes us over and kills all of Konoha!  
The line under the eyes is prominent on Madara but this is something that is possible to appear when aging. Plus Tobi's face is riddled with lines... I don't think eyes are a solid enough argument to dismiss Izuna's case. Something like the lines on Itachi's face are obvious and can be seen even when old but the lines that Tobi has could be from aging. This is a quality of Madara but it's also a quality of any old person. Look at Danzo. 

Also in this picture of Madara and Izuna 



You can plainly see that Izuna has some lines under his eyes, aging would definitely make these more prominent and a more consistent shape later on. 

Also the bags could be from his face structure and not bags however aging brings about a similar process that is difficult to differentiate in drawings.


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## Yuna (Oct 23, 2011)

Kyokkai said:


> Also the bags could be from his face structure and not bags however aging brings about a similar process that is difficult to differentiate in drawings.


It's called "beady eyes" and *can* come about with age. Notice how every single really old person in Narutoverse has beady eyes.


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## Kimimaro-kun (Oct 23, 2011)

Viridium said:


> Kagami was a part of a team led by Tobirama, who was supposedly known for his S/T jutsu. Danzo Shimura and the council elders of Konoha were also members of this team, and Kagami has a clear connection to Konoha and Hashirama. In addition, Kagami was an Uchiha, meaning he had lived *at the same time as Madara*. For how many people can we say the same? One: Izuna Uchiha, who has an _obvious_ connection to his *brother* (I mean, really, he has to be the _most obvious_ candidate).
> 
> Honestly... I don't think a majority of us will be able to guess _who_ he is, much less validate some long, complex theory on _how_ he is, or why he came to be. All you need to be a candidate now is an Uchiha, pretty much... Which he better be
> 
> I'm still all for Kagami, though.




He lived at the same time as Madara? I think Madara has already "lost" to Hashirama when Kagami became a part of Tobirama's team. Tobirama was already Hokage, so I guess Hashirama was also dead by the time. Kagami should've been much younger than Madara. 

Kagami has no connections. He was just part of Tobirama's team and that's all. Did he even speak when he was introduced? He barely said a line. And we have no idea of his power or potential and apparently he haven't even awakened the MS. Kagami's clearly fodder, we are enough lucky to know what was his name. 

On the contrary, Izuna does have a clear connection to Madara (his little brother, how much closer could he be?). We know that he was the second wielder of the MS and the second most powerful Uchiha of all time before Itachi's generation. And Izuna has fairly good reasons to hate Konoha, while Kagami wasn't introduced as someone with evil/twisted intentions. 

I'm not 100% sure that Izuna is Tobi, but I'm indeed sure that he's not Kagami.


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## Almondsand (Oct 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> "Keep in mind that Izuna would ancient by now, *so those bags could just be wrinkles*."
> 
> 
> How can you know those are bags and not wrinkles? Could be either by the looks of it.



No, I will not let you convince others that the bags underneath Tobi eyes is just wrinkles. I know that these are bags because every instance where his mask was semi-uncovered you see the resemblance between Madara and Tobi bottom eyelid. Seriously if I can post pictures of both Madara and Tobi this debate will be over.

Matter of fact I can:




Kyokkai said:


> The problem is that it's said from characters that don't always tell the truth so it's not as solid as it could be.
> Some kind of record? What kind of record exactly?
> Why would Danzo question whether Tobi was Madara or not? He was wearing a mask like Madara, and he had Sharingan like Madara and he's on the opposing side of Konoha like Madara, that's enough to say this guy is possibly Madara, all Danzo really knew was I gotta beat this guy before he takes us over and kills all of Konoha!
> The line under the eyes is prominent on Madara but this is something that is possible to appear when aging. Plus Tobi's face is riddled with lines... I don't think eyes are a solid enough argument to dismiss Izuna's case. Something like the lines on Itachi's face are obvious and can be seen even when old but the lines that Tobi has could be from aging. This is a quality of Madara but it's also a quality of any old person. Look at Danzo.
> ...



I doubt the Tsuchikage who is fighting a supposedly imposter Madara and his undead army will be lying at a time where it's pretty important to know your enemy. I'm sure if Izuna was still alive, there would had been some record of his existence instead of word of mouth from Tobi and Itachi. No the Uchiha tablet in Sasuke's basement does not count. He was said to have perished in war against the Senju, and then shortly thereafter the Senju wanted a truce, which then established Konoha. Danzo is a fair point, but Izuna lines on his face is not even making a shape that resembles Tobi bottom lids. The only person with this characteristic is Madara.


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## yamiter03 (Oct 24, 2011)

IDK Who Tobi is but there's no way it's Obito it wwouldn't make any since, The fourth fought tobi, Obito wouldn't be this strong and this tall, and why would Obito betray the Fourth? why would he want to destroy Konoha? I don't think it's Madara either cause how would the impure resurrection would if he wasn't dead?


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## son_michael (Oct 24, 2011)

we already established that Tobi is not Madara's original body, saying the marks on his eyes are wrinkles and old age doesn't make sense. If tobi is obito, it makes sense that whats under his eye is facial damage, or hell it could just be facial damage if tobi is ANYBODY. Old age/wrinkles doesn't make any sense anymore because if its a body from Madara's time then it should look way worse old age wise.


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## Yuna (Oct 24, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> No, I will not let you convince others that the bags underneath Tobi eyes is just wrinkles. I know that these are bags because every instance where his mask was semi-uncovered you see the resemblance between Madara and Tobi bottom eyelid. Seriously if I can post pictures of both Madara and Tobi this debate will be over.


Izuna's eyes are *identical* to Madara's except his bottom eyelid is less beady, but there *is* some kind of line there, a line that could very well be more accentuated by age, either to become beadier and look identical to Madara's or to become a wrinkle that very much resembles Madara's bags.

It is an entirely plausible theory. You won' "let me"?



Almondsand said:


> I doubt the Tsuchikage who is fighting a supposedly imposter Madara and his undead army will be lying at a time where it's pretty important to know your enemy.  I'm sure if Izuna was still alive, there would had been some record of his existence instead of word of mouth from Tobi and Itachi.


Why would there be? Also why would they be correct?



Almondsand said:


> Danzo is a fair point, but Izuna lines on his face is not even making a shape that resembles Tobi bottom lids. The only person with this characteristic is Madara.


Those are beady eyes! And you can get beady eyes from age. Someone whose eyeshape is *identical* to Madara's besides the beady bottom lid could easily get eyes identical to Madara due to old ag.


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## thepowerofscience (Oct 24, 2011)

*proof Tobi isn't Izuna or Madara*

look at the kyuubi eye it's Madara normal MS not his EMS and if he was Izuna it will be a combined form of Madara and his MS.
extract Orochimaru and expunge the Curse Seal
extract Orochimaru and expunge the Curse Seal


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## Saturnine (Oct 24, 2011)

Izuna had NO fuckign eyes, genius.


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## thepowerofscience (Oct 24, 2011)

Saturnine said:


> Izuna had NO fuckign eyes, genius.



you just reply without even thinking, many people assumed that Izuna had taken his brother eyes or any Uchiha eyes, then in this manga transplanting of eyes is a common thing and even a chunin transplant one to Kakashi in a cave and he was ready to fight some minutes after.


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## thepowerofscience (Oct 24, 2011)

Soulking Brook said:


> Read my theory which defeats your theory



so why the kyuubi eyes was not Izuna MS form and was Madara MS form and if you will go and say he take his brother eyes then it has to be a combined form.


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## Rama (Oct 24, 2011)

I dont get it man, you trying to say Kyubbi has different eyes, help me out here lol


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## thepowerofscience (Oct 24, 2011)

Hashirama said:


> I dont get it man, you trying to say Kyubbi has different eyes, help me out here lol



while controlling the Kyuubi its eyes take the form of the controller eyes which was the MS of Madara not EMS which Madara was already having it decades ago.
if you still didn't get it remember sasuke controlling Manda when he escaped Deidara final explosion Manda eyes were sharingan.


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## Ezekial (Oct 24, 2011)

Whoever controled the Kyuubi against Minato controled it so with a base sharingan.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 24, 2011)

thepowerofscience said:


> while controlling the Kyuubi its eyes take the form of the controller eyes which was the MS of Madara not EMS which Madara was already having it decades ago.



Izunas eyes and therefore his MS was taken and given to Madara, therefore the MS Tobi used had to be from a different set of eyes. Also in that panel I don't see a full MS it shows the eyes turning into it but doesn't exactly show the final MS and then the rest of the shots are too far to see the MS that the Kyuubi is using which would be the basis of your theory. 

Could you perhaps provide a better still shot of the Kyuubi with the MS fully activated and not in the process of going MS?


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## Ezekial (Oct 24, 2011)

Sooooo.... This is awkward.... But err weres the evidence? Whoooopsyyyy


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## thepowerofscience (Oct 24, 2011)

Ezekial said:


> Whoever controled the Kyuubi against Minato controled it so with a base sharingan.


look at the links the Kyuubi eyes while it was controlled it was Madara MS form, then again while Sasuke fighting Itachi when Itachi told him him that MS turned the user blind Sasuke told him " that is the price you have to pay to control the Kyuubi" then Itachi told him that what Sasuke said means he read the uchiha stone. 
which means to control the Kyuubi MS is a must.


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## Talis (Oct 24, 2011)

If you mean the eye design thats truly a confusing thing.
Back then when the MS design wasnt revealed, yet Itachi used Tsyukomi on Kakashi with a base Sharingan. But in the flashback it suddenly showed the MS design.
At least it happend like this in the anime. I dont know about the manga ill try to give it a look.

Edit: It seems like the same happend in the manga: extract Orochimaru and expunge the Curse Seal

Read a few pages back and you notice it.

So my conclusion is, on this Kyuubis eye design we just see the base Sharingan design but its in fact a MS design.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Oct 24, 2011)

So, the thing with all these Tobi theories is that they have become obsolete with the recent manga chapters but people still cling to them. I have some thoughts on this myself but this is NOT a theory. I don't have any solid proof. It's merely a hypothesis based on fragmented evidence. Something to think about and perhaps, make a decent theory out of later. Note : what's with the 10k characters limit? How are we supposed to express ourselves? 

The following are both connections between the elder son of the Sage of the Six Paths and Tobi, and reasons why the elder son could be Tobi:

*The Masked Man - Character & Abilities​*
- Ill start with this image 
Sharingans true power *My power* ... Uchiha Madara's power ...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: See how he plays it out? He put's himself _before_ Uchiha Madara. If he was Madara, he would have said, "the Power of Uchiha Madara, b/c villains usually speak in the 3rd person. Or simply "My power," in the first person. Madara was the only ninja in the history that could achieve the same power of the Elder Son. He had both Uchiha blood and high level Sharingan. Maybe this is why Tobi often refers to himself as Madara. They had the same story, fate and outcome.




- The Masked Man adamantly believes in peace through might/power


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: For example, the moon's eye plan he detailed. This page highlights the different ideologies shared by the two brothers.
image




- He is like Madara, yet hes not Madara


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: He talks about Madara's fight versus Hashirama as if it was his own. Perhaps, he is mirroring it to his fight with his younger brother?

image
image

He also abhors the leaf and all of their champions (Ex. 1st Hokage and Naruto). He detests everything they stand for. They are the embodiment of his brother.




- OBJECTION! He lies all the time about his true intentions


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: It is very difficult to site the manga because he is constantly deceiving/manipulating others. Everything he says we have to take with a grain of salt.




- Who on earth are you? This page  mind = blown


*Spoiler*: __ 



image

Comment: Everything on it is pure gold. We also can assume that it is completely true because Konan is moments from dying. Since she pushed The Masked Man to his limits, he rewards her with an honest demeanor. He states, "I am Uchiha Madara with the power of Senju Hashirama!" "I am the ONLY one who could be the second Sage of Six paths He who sees the future is the victor! How can he be Uchiha Madara with the power of Senju Hashirama? Ill let you interpret that for a sec. Remember, he uses his alter ego of Madara to express his actual sentiments.


 

- The Elder son may still be alive


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: SO6P was a god in the Naruto universe, so his children would be especially powerful. If ninjas such as Hidan, Kakuzu, Sasori and Oro can achieve immortality, it is plausible that the elder son found a way to extend his life span. Obviously his younger son, being the successor, chose the same fate of his father and died of natural causes/old age. How did Elder son survive for so long?

Zetsu. He can replace his body parts, which means his body can't decay. His sharingan that is always active grants him greater perception (no way to sneak up on him) and his space-time techniques make it impossible for someone to kill him. Conclusion = Tobi is invincible and immortal.




- Masked Man's immortality


*Spoiler*: __ 



image

I wish we knew more about his pocket dimension. It could be a clue to his immortality. If Torune and Fu didn't die in there after several weeks, this means that time is nonexistant in that dimension. He can fully manipulate the rules of time and space in his pocket dimension - similar to Itachi's Tsukuyomi gen jutsu.




- Hides his identity


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: If he's Madara why would he hide his face? Why does he still use the mask? And NO, it wasn't actually Madara who was seen in the Itachi/Kisame flashbacks. Kisame met a long-haired Tobi and than he recognized short-haired Tobi as the same person! So, this person is not Madara just because he has long hair lol. It's one of the ploys Kishi put in the manga just to fuk with our minds.




- Everyone recognized the same face that they _thought_ was Uchiha Madara


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: Itachi and Kisame both met the man they had thought to be Uchiha Madara. Long-haired Tobi approached Kisame and falsely called himself Uchiha Madara. When short-haired Tobi approached him again, Kisame recognized him as the same person. Therefore, long haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are the same mysterious character.
Long-haired Tobi approaching Kisame :
image
Short-haired Tobi recognized by Kisame:
image 




- His techniques are beyond anything we have seen in manga!


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: Both Tobi and Zetsu are leagues above all other ninja. Their abilities are incredible. They could quite possibly be from another time/place. They do not fit in the story. Tobi is technically invincible and Zetsu easily disabled the four kages at the summit.
His powers are beyond what we have seen so far in manga. Minato is epic but his techniques are nowhere near the level of Tobi's. Minato is just using ultra fast summoning. His secret is in the speed of his movement. Tobi on other hand is pure master of space/time. Not only he can move through space but it seems that he can also control time in his pocket dimension. Fu and Torune were in there for weeks and they apparently did not die.
How does he manipulate space and time is still a mystery to me. It could have something to do with the unique perception that these doujutsus grant their users. As we know - time and matter is illusion, and is limited by our eyes and our perception.




- The Rinnegan was his before?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: When fighting Konan, the Masked Man claimed to have given the Rinnegan to Nagato and was retrieving what was originally his. If he is the elder son, this would explain how these ancient eyes magically appeared in a random young boy - Nagato. Considering that we now know that the Rinnegan is a stage in the maturity of the sharingan (3 tomoe, MS, EMS, Rinngan). The masked man loaned his Rinngan to Nagato/Pain, so that he could manipulate him. He was merely a pawn in his grand scheme, which we do not fully understand yet.




- The Masked Man is, a former shell of himself


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: If this is a weakened state, imagine when he is complete. He is weak probably due to his extremely old age. He is living thanks to Zetsu.




- He has extensive knowledge of the original Sage of the Six Paths and his two sons


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: He told Naruto, Kakashi and Yamato of how the Senju and Uchiha are destined to always fight one another

image
image




- The Masked Man desires to become the Juubi Jinchuurikki ... why?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: To continue his fathers legacy. It's a classic story 

image

Here he says that Rinne Tensei was supposed to be used for his own means. I believe he wanted Nagato to resurrect the Juubi after they collected all the bijuus. He also mentions Sasuke. If he cannot control Sasuke, he will have no use in their plan. This could explain why he doesn't want to revive Madara. He could prove to be too difficult to control unlike Nagato.




*SEE THE NEXT POST FOR PART 2*


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Oct 24, 2011)

*The Legacy of Sage of the Six Paths - The Ultimate Doujutsu​*
- The intertwined fate between the two bloodlines Senju vs Uchiha


*Spoiler*: __ 



image
Comment: The fact is, since that day he and his descendants always took the role of being inferior to Senju.




- Unmentioned Doujutsu!


*Spoiler*: __ 






Sage, along with the Rinnegan, was introduced before his sons :


image


image

*This can only mean that Uchiha clan's ancestor swirly doujutsu is not a mistake or an interpretation of the manga! It was drawn by Kishimoto with intention!* The Elder son's eyes are derived from the Rinnegan. It is similar, but slightly different.




- That swirl in the Elder son's eyes looks _awfully_ simular to Tobi's warp technique


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: Kamui = sharingan tech

Tobi's warp = swirly doujutsu tech.

Sharingan = derived from Elder son's doujutsu, obviosly sharingan and it's jutsus are going to be inferior to the doujutsu it derived from.

Kamui = inferior to warp tech of Tobi

*The 3rd Databook says : "If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked." This supports my idea even more than before! *

That's why Kakashi's kamui is inferior to Tobi's tech and that's why it would not work on Tobi.

Also, Tobi's previous mask looked like the his swirly doujutsu. His new mask looks a bit different.

Considering that Tobi now has both the Rinnegan and Sharingan, it could represent the Juubi's doujutsu.





- WAIT IS THERE A MOTIF IN NARUTO?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: There is definitely a lot more to explore with the re-ocurring theme of melding the body of the Senju and the eyes of the Uchiha. Another example is Nagato/Pain. According to Tobi, Nagato is a descendant of the Uzumaki clan (trademark red hair). If he gave him the Rinngan, then we have yet again another example. The Masked Man tried to combine these two traits.

In addition, we know that Kabuto did something to Madara's newly summoned body which made him beyond what he was in his prime. Key word *body*. Perhaps, an injection of Senju cells. We can only speculate at this point.




- More unrelated/interesting thoughts about the character of Orochimaru


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: The Masked Man is trying to meld the power of the Uchiha and Senju. In turn, becoming the 2nd Sage of Six Paths. Orochimaru and Kabuto were also trying to accomplish this same feat. Which is why they facilitated experiments combining the body of the Senju and the eyes of the Uchiha. They were attempting to artificially recreate the power of the Sage. Obviously, they failed with Danzo.

This was Orochimaru's goal in the original manga. It explains things. Like, why he wanted Sasuke and why he was conducting all those experiments. The only way to truly to master every jutsu was to obtain the rinngan. How do you do that? According to their hypothesis, obtain a vessel with the sharingan (sasuke) and level up accordingly (3 tomoe, MS, EMS, Rinngan)




- Why does everyone want this power?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: The power of the Sage of the Six Paths is pure creation. Your only limits would be your own imagination. The miscellaneous powers granted by higher level Sharingan revolve around creation and destruction. The perfect Rinnegan will ultimately culminate in a doujutsu that affects the very fabric of reality. A *complete* Izangi. The Masked Man explains ?
image




*Disproving Other Theories regarding the Identity of Tobi​*
- Honestly who could be dark, evil and powerful enough to fill Tobi's spot? Tobi = Kishimoto


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: There is not much to choose from. Madara? If he is, then why would the summoned Madara refer to himself as "him". And Kabuto refers to Masked Man as, ?his assistant,? who is clearly not Madara because he is standing right in front of him. This does not make sense and you know it. Let?s not beat up those dead horses anymore.
Izuna? Well it's possible but I think that would be too boring for the story. There's not much of a plot twist in that. It would be stupid from Kishi to keep us in such suspension, put all these ploys and riddles in the manga just to finally reveal that Tobi was Izuna, Kagami, Zetsu (not clone of Madara) or some other regular character. It's not just stupid, it is a total let down and it doesn't enrich the story in any way. Kishi is way better writer than that. People want to see something epic and only a new, unknown character of an epic caliber would achieve this.




- The personalities of Madara and the Masked Man do not match


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: He is arrogant and aloof at times. He is always underestimating his opponents (b/c he can) and treats everyone like children. In chapter 560, Madara does not convey these characteristics in the least.

Masked Man acting arrogant and underestimating Konan, twice:
image
image
image
image
image
image
image 

Masked Man acting arrogant and underestimating Minato :
image
image
image
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The Masked Man has shown a specific characteristic that Uchiha Madara does not have.

image

*"One sometimes needs patience to achieve their goals."* (Side note : great words, I agree with him) This is something that Madara would never have said. 

Madara is a fighter, a warrior. Obviosly he has a rash personality.
Link removed

When his clan wanted peace, he wanted war. 
Link removed
Link removed

When Hashirama became Hokage his rash and over emotional personality led him to the point where he was despised by his clan and had to leave the village.
Link removed
Link removed

Bent on revenge, his rash personality led him to attack Konoha
Link removed
Link removed

This is not how a patient man looks, involving Kyuubi in this matter means he was dead serious on his wish to destroy Konoha
Link removed




- Let?s not make assumptions based on hair


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: Look at his hair. It looks very similar but is not the same as Madara's. I believe this is just one of the ploys Kishi put in the story to throw the reader off track. That bastard like's to toy with us.






- The Masked Man is not Obito


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: For all the Obito fanboys! Unlike Kakashi, Tobi can't warp people from a distance, he needs to grab them and then he sucks them inside the wormhole that forms infront of his eyes. 
He can warp in and out, where as Kakashi can only warp in. It may be an incomplete version of Tobi?s space-time jutsu. Kamui consumes a large amount of chakra to perform, where as Tobi?s warp jutsu does not seem to consume any chakra at all.
According to the Third Databook, "If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked." This might hint that other Mangekyō users can access the technique, but this is not confirmed. 
Kamui is not an unique Mangekyou jutsu of Obito?s eyes. Considering this was the main piece of evidence of all Obito theories, I?d say there?s no point in arguing any further.




SEE THE NEXT POST FOR PART 3


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Oct 24, 2011)

*The Kyuubi Incident*​
- Masked Man’s sudden attack on the Leaf Village


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: I gave some thought to it and so far I could only come up with two decent reasons for Masked Man's actions:

1) To frame the Uchiha

The Leaf Village Elders knew that Uchiha's were planning for coup d'etat and they were pressing 3rd Hokage to get to terminate the problem. 
Hiruzen, being the good person he is, believed in handling things peacefully and did not agree with Elders. He believed that there is a way to comprimise without bloodshed. Following the Nine Tails incident, the Elders pressed Hiruzen even more. Breaking under the pressure he agreed and gave the go ahead. His view on the matter was the same as Itachi's. He knew that something had to be done, otherwise the whole village, the fire country and perhaps the whole ninja world could fall in to the state of chaos. Killing for the "greater good".

You may be wondering why would Tobi would help bring about the death of the Uchiha Clan? Well, there many possible reasons:

- He may have wanted to collect all the left over sharingans for his own means (reason unknown)

- He may have wanted to prevent anyone else from obtaining Rinnegan (ex. Oro, Danzou)

- For all we know he might have truly despised the Uchihas. In his eyes they could have been failures and disgrace to him. They lost to Senjus and were essentially their pets. Tobi respects power, that's partially why he admires Hashirama.

2) To obtain kyuubi. You will say "But he can't seal kyuubi in gedo mazo, you need to seal it from the lowest tail to highest, otherwise the statue will collapse!". That is true, he couldn't seal it in Gedo Mazo just yet but he had a perfect jinchuurikki at his disposal - The fourth Mizukage. 


Yagura was said to be one of the people who could fully control his bijuu. We know that 3-tails was roaming free when Akatsuki went after it.


"It was also stated by Tsunade in the anime that the Three-Tails disappeared after a great war."

Apparently, Tobi released three tails from Yagura to seal the Nine tails in him. It fits perfectly in the timeline and it would explain why the hell Tobi choose to control Yagura.

What bugs me here is that extracting bijuu *almost* always ends in the Jinchuurikkis death.




*Room for Speculation?!​*
- Far fetched Idea


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: *Madara could very well have been apprentice of elder son. He was the one pushing Madara to doubt Hashirama and Senju (because of the everlasting hate between their clans). He was the one who pushed him to fight Hashirama (to obtain his cells?). He may have been the one who promised to resurrect Madara after he dies. Maybe he even wanted to use Madara to synch with Gedo Mazo and resurrect the Juubi. After that failed, he had an option to either resurrect Madara or to find a new and better host for Rinnegan – Nagato.
You know, I am starting to think that he may have used Madara all along just to get his dirty hands on Rinnegan and Hashiramas cells.*

In this page:
Link removed
Notice how Uchiha Madara refers to the Masked Man ... Madara knows of the "plan". He knows the Masked Man!




- Wait a sec? Can it get even more _far fetched_?


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment: SUPER INTERESTING FACT! EVERYTHING THAT HAS OCCURRED IN THE MANGA IS SOMEHOW LINKED TO THIS MASKED MAN. ex. 4th hokage's death, Hidden mist activities, Akatsuki, Pain/Nagato, Uchiha Clan massacre, current War, etc, etc. He is the cause of all the major events and problems in Naruto universe. ALL PART OF THE PLAN!




- Analysis of Madara's choice of words in ch. 560


*Spoiler*: __ 



Comment:

Link removed

Madara says:

*"That someone was able to revive me in this kind of state... This is "his" doing.."*

The problem is that most reader's mistakenly assume that Madara meant his state as the Edo Tensei summon. When, in fact, he may have meant "This state.." as the state of war/situation they are in.




I'll probably add more to this post periodically. I think it’s pretty strong. But, feel free to correct me and suggest better options of whom Tobi may be. 

_Note: there may be a few contradictions in this post b/c it was written by two people _

*Made by EternalMangekyouRinnegan & opt4shenanigans*

P.S. This is post is not completed, I don't have time right now but I will complete later. If you have any ideas for this particular hypothesis, send me a pm.


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## Ezekial (Oct 24, 2011)

thepowerofscience said:


> look at the links the Kyuubi eyes while it was controlled it was Madara MS form, then again while Sasuke fighting Itachi when Itachi told him him that MS turned the user blind Sasuke told him " that is the price you have to pay to control the Kyuubi" then Itachi told him that what Sasuke said means he read the uchiha stone.
> which means to control the Kyuubi MS is a must.



Link? Because see no evidence of a MS


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## thepowerofscience (Oct 24, 2011)

Ezekial said:


> Link? Because see no evidence of a MS



the first link, bottom to the right this is Madara MS design


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## Ezekial (Oct 24, 2011)

thepowerofscience said:


> the first link, bottom to the right this is Madara MS design



No it isnt, its just a regular sharingan forming


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## First Tsurugi (Oct 24, 2011)

Neither of the pics you posted show Madara's MS design.

In fact they don't show any MS design at all.


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## Talis (Oct 24, 2011)

thepowerofscience said:


> the first link, bottom to the right this is Madara MS design







Yeah, they indeedly look a like. (sarcasm)


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## Klue (Oct 24, 2011)

We've only seen the process for a Sharingan to control a Bijuu in one instance, and that's when Tobi attacked Konoha. We don't have enough information to disprove anything, really.

Remember, Sasuke said the blindness is the price one pays for controlling the Kyuubi. But no one ever said you must alter your eyes to MS form to pull the deed off. Just obtaining the Mangekyou could be enough.


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## Rikudou (Oct 24, 2011)

How ironic that a guy who calls himself "thepowerofscience" is doesn't comprehend how scientific method is applied


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## Jizznificent (Oct 24, 2011)

Klue said:


> We've only seen the process for a Sharingan to control a Bijuu in one instance, and that's when Tobi attacked Konoha. We don't have enough information to disprove anything, really.
> 
> Remember, Sasuke said the blindness is the price one pays for controlling the Kyuubi. But no one ever said you must alter your eyes to MS form to pull the deed off. Just obtaining the Mangekyou could be enough.


well that's true. 

i once came to the conclusion that the reason why tobi could control the fox even with his base sharingan is because he has both uchiha (sharingan) + senju (hashirama) powers. iirc tobi himself implied that danzo could easily control the fox with the combination of these powers.


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## son_michael (Oct 24, 2011)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry to tell you but your evidence against it being obito is pretty pathetic. The belief is kakashi's Kamui is the inverted of tobi's sharingan and thus tobi's teleport ability is obviously different.

this is proven by the MANGA(not the databook, don't use it, its shit.) when Sasuke is stated to have his own MS doujutsu's which together form Susanoo(those being Kagatsuchi and Amateratsu) where as the databook states that  Tsukiyomi and Amateratsu together make Susanoo(sadly this one piece of data from the data book has made fans believe Sasuke has Tsukiyomi(he obviously has it NOW as he has itachi's power))  

Furthermore..Itachi has Amateratsu and Tsukiyom, so the main point here is that there are 2 MS doujutsu's for each sharingan eye, so if its obito's eye then it makes sense how this completely different version of kamui is an inward defensive version rather than the offensive that kakashi has, which again mirrors Itachi and sasuke so well as they both have an offensive and defensive technique.


Another thing, how can a non Uchiha turn the sharingan into a MS? It could be very possible Kakashi's is connected to obito's other eye and thus is reacting naturally to tobi using it.

Whether or not tobi is obito, it seems pretty clear he must be using obito's sharingan, either way your evidence against both is severely lacking.


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## Tankaman (Oct 24, 2011)

*another reason why i think shisui is tobi*

ok when sasuke, finished the fight with itachi why embed Amaterasu in him to attack him if he reveals himself after taking off his mask, i mean he coulda just told him that and not revealed himself, yeah i know he would still have to show sooner or later, but who goes around saying there, uchiha madara no one does, but this guy, tobi. that makes me think that this must be someone sasuke knows. if its not shisui its a uchiha that didn't die during the massacre. also tobi as far as i've seen has never released his sharigan as said in another thread also he must be very skilled or it's implanted, like i said before, shisui was said to be the uchiha clans best. so why would he kill himself or just get pawned by itachi yes itachi is strong but im pretty sure he couldn't just drown the guy. itachi said he had help during the massacre and it was madara. shisui was strong he coulda help kill the village with him. but for a different purpose. he wanted the sharingans. as far as the guys confronting itachi its was to throw off his dad those guys probably where controlled by shisui himself.


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## Subside (Oct 24, 2011)

Not according to Itachi



His ideals were the same as Naruto's, hes not Tobi.


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## zenite (Oct 25, 2011)

*Tobi*

I believe he's one of four people:

Madara's younger Bro- Why? He seemed quite upset when his said "eye sacrifice" was supposedly unneeded when the uchiha and Senju became one, He can Control the Nine-tails, He had his eye's taken so he uses the eye's of others which is why he collected the uchiha eyes, Tobi also seems to be holding the same Fan Madara used back in the day.

Sage's oldest son- Why? He believed might was the key to peace, wants to cast a genjutsu on the world and thereby forcing them to get along, speaks with more hate for the Senju a.k.a the descendents of his younger brother then the other uchiha did, wanted to become whole by getting the body of the sage (senju), seems to know alot about the sons of the sage, even though they apparently weren't written in the tablet like the juubi was.

Juubi- I believe someone already made a thread on this one before I did

Someone New- I personally would like it if Tobi turned out to be a completely different character like Pain turned out to be


I fully believe Tobi can ONLY be one of these four individuals and no one else.


Thoughts?


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## goldendriger (Oct 25, 2011)

Oh god make it stop!
Seriously Kishi i dont care if it's freaking Sakura behind the mask! Just make people stop with the theories and the "100% confirmed" Threads!!!!!!


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## BrokenBonds (Oct 25, 2011)

goldendriger said:


> Oh god make it stop!
> Seriously Kishi i dont care if it's freaking Sakura behind the mask! Just make people stop with the theories and the "100% confirmed" Threads!!!!!!


*AGREED! AGREED! AGREED!*

I really would prefer if Tobi was Madara but now it's like WHATEVER. All I really care about now is that these threads just _stop_!


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## Demon_Sargeras (Oct 25, 2011)

2 things
1. you don't need to have MS or EMS to control the kyuubi. regular sharingan can do the trick too. If you look at the Cover page on which the REAL old madara is controlling the kyuubi you'll see that the kyuubi's eyes are the normal sharingans. 

2. controlling the fox isn't THAAAAAAAT special. Even sasuke was able to partially prevent naruto from going into the tailed form like in the beginning of the shippuden arc. and Hashirama controlled the other bijuus (god knows how, probably with his wood no jutsus -_-').


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## Kenzo (Oct 25, 2011)

*Tobi can't be Kagami, Obito or Fugaku*

There are heaps of reasons why it cant be them but quite simply...

Kagami: Danzo would recognize his voice
Obito: Kakashi would recognize his voice
Fugaku: Itachi/Sasuke would recognize his voice


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## Susano'o (Oct 25, 2011)

How would Kakashi recognize the voice of a grown Obito?

I don't believe in Tobi=Obito but I just had to disprove that for the sake of the thread. And if we're going by Anime standards, than we already know that Tobi can alter his voice playfully.


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## Nep Nep (Oct 25, 2011)

Oh my well you've just ended the Obito,Kagami, and Fugaku theories with your kickass evidence /sarcasm >_> peoples voices change... people can force a change in their voice... and anyone of these people is *ancient* so of course their voice would be different. 

You're joking with this post right? :/


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## Mistshadow (Oct 25, 2011)

yes...........he can be either of those 3, plus izuna, because he IS one of those 4.

those are the only 4 candidates


well plus a zetsu clone and a son.


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## Palpatine (Oct 25, 2011)

I bet Tobi himself doesn't even know who he is at this point.


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## Icegaze (Oct 25, 2011)

At this point Tobi is Izuna at 80% or Kagami at 20%.


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## Dei (Oct 25, 2011)

Kagami was a one panel fodder no way he is tobi, Fugaku could be but very unlikely. Obito is a big nope.


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## Hasan (Oct 25, 2011)

There's a huge statue of Madara at the VoTE, you know. 

If he really was Shisui, there was no point in removing the mask. He said beforehand that he was Madara. Removing the mask would have refuted his claim considering Sasuke stood over his statue and knows what Madara looks like.


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## Kiss (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm going with someone new.


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## Yuna (Oct 25, 2011)

KaaN23 said:


> Obito: Kakashi would recognize his voice


*Minato* would have recognized his voice. Seeing as how the Kyuubi attack happened within *days/weeks/months to, at most a year* of the Kakashi Gaiden.


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## Fatback (Oct 25, 2011)

Deiboom said:


> Kagami was a one panel fodder no way he is tobi, Fugaku could be but very unlikely. Obito is a big nope.



Yup Fugaku. Sasuke simply didnt recognize his own dad when tobi took his mask off. It all makes perfect sense.


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## Drums (Oct 25, 2011)

Susano'o said:


> How would Kakashi recognize the voice of a grown Obito?
> 
> And if we're going by Anime standards, than we already know that Tobi can alter his voice playfully.



Agreed. And yes, nice add, Minato too would have recognised Tobi's voice back at the Kyubi attack.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 25, 2011)

Madara's older brother


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## Yuna (Oct 25, 2011)

Susano'o said:


> And if we're going by Anime standards, than we already know that Tobi can alter his voice playfully.


We're not. We never will.


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## Target (Oct 25, 2011)

so izuna or shishi? take your pick thats all thats left


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## LOGH Fanboy (Oct 25, 2011)

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that there is probably an easy-to-master jutsu in the ninja world that changes the sound of your voice. It would be useful for assassination missions where people use henge no jutsu to impersonate someone.


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## PikaCheeka (Oct 25, 2011)

Come now, OP.

Maybe Kakashi couldn't recognize him because Obito's voice finally broke when his skull and neck did.


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## JPongo (Oct 25, 2011)

RS elder son.


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## Icegaze (Oct 25, 2011)

KaaN23 said:


> There are heaps of reasons why it cant be them but quite simply...
> 
> Kagami: Danzo would recognize his voice
> Obito: Kakashi would recognize his voice
> Fugaku: Itachi/Sasuke would recognize his voice



So what you are saying is that someone cannot change their voice in order to deceive/conceal their identity?
How about fun-Tobi Tobitroll and Tobidara? Same voice? Nope. I thought as much.


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## MYJC (Oct 25, 2011)

Evil Zetsu clone of Madara.


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## Chibason (Oct 25, 2011)

Come on, OP...this is worse than 'hair' threads...Ofc he could change his voice


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## Talis (Oct 25, 2011)

Fail thread is fail.
Onoki should have recorgnize Tobis voice if he really was Madara.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Oct 25, 2011)

Well lets look at what we know.


Madara was the first one to activate the rinnengon since the sage of six paths. So this means when Tobi said he gave the rinnengon to pain and hes taking it back he wasnt leing.

This in turn means tobi has some kind of connection with madara.

We also know tobi is a uchiha because he doesnt cover his eye like kakshi and danzo, if he didnt cover his eye he would lose chakra but clearly this isnt the case.

We also know tobi has alot of eyes at his disposal so clearly this means it was tobi who took part in the uchiha massacre with itachi and most likley he did it because he figured konoha would beat the uchiha and keep the uchiha eyes and bodies to dicipher there secrets and he wanted it first.

also what was intresting was madara also knew orochimaru he refer to him as "he" and kabuto said i am "he's" assistant.

So the question we have to ask our selves is this how does the dead madara know of nagato and oro if he died years ago, i wanna say tobi is just a clone but i feel its something much more plot twisting then that. I feel like the uchiha shrine has some answers but nobody has ever read the full text yet.


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## TheRipper (Oct 25, 2011)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Well lets look at what we know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No.
Madara and Kabuto were referring to Tobi, not Orochimaru.


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## Talis (Oct 25, 2011)

TheRipper said:


> No.
> Madara and Kabuto were referring to Tobi, not Orochimaru.



Yes.
And to be the honestly, i am not expecting a dumb clone behind that mask after 3 years waiting, or the most fans of Kishi will be pretty angry.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Oct 25, 2011)

TheRipper said:


> No.
> Madara and Kabuto were referring to Tobi, not Orochimaru.



Oh well thanks for the correction none the less the point still stands, the real madara knows nagato and nagato is even younger then orochimaru.

Anythoughs on the rest of my post?


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## lordhigh (Oct 26, 2011)

*it's uchiha shisui!*

i'm guessing tobi is uchiha shisui...     even i wondered why he had to wear a mask if he is in fact madara.     but its most likely that madara is residing in shisui's body.    *the hairstyles of tobi and shisui look alike.
 *kabuto said that he could not find shisui's corpse.
 *he was so interested to get shisui's eye from danzo.
 *he used shisui's genjutsu on 4th mizukage..
 *He had earned the nickname of "Shisui of the Body Flicker" as 4th hokage as    yellow flash.    it could be said that shisui is not tobi.. coz, we saw the flash back  where kushina tells how the nine tailed fox is sealed inside naruto, we  get to see TOBI fighting 4th hokage. come to think of it... itachi is some 6-7 yrs old at that time... however Itachi thought of him as an OLDER BROTHER..  as for the coffin, i could not even make a guess. kabuto said he did not tell tobi's secret to a single soul. if its izuna or uchiha kagami  as many people say, whats secret in der? every one knows izuna is dead as tobi stated.. and i think uchiha kagami is a random uchiha..  what do you think guys??   Discuss


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## Escargon (Oct 26, 2011)

I think Shishuis face and arm is implanted to Danzo


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## Stelios (Oct 26, 2011)

lordhigh said:


> i'm guessing tobi is uchiha shisui...     even i wondered why he had to wear a mask if he is in fact madara.     but its most likely that madara is residing in shisui's body.    *the hairstyles of tobi and shisui look alike.
> *kabuto said that he could not find shisui's corpse.
> *he was so interested to get shisui's eye from danzo.
> *he used shisui's genjutsu on 4th mizukage..
> *He had earned the nickname of "Shisui of the Body Flicker" as 4th hokage as    yellow flash.    it could be said that shisui is not tobi.. coz, we saw the flash back  where kushina tells how the nine tailed fox is sealed inside naruto, we  get to see TOBI fighting 4th hokage. come to think of it... itachi is some 6-7 yrs old at that time... however Itachi thought of him as an OLDER BROTHER..  as for the coffin, i could not even make a guess. kabuto said he did not tell tobi's secret to a single soul. if its izuna or uchiha kagami  as many people say, whats secret in der? every one knows izuna is dead as tobi stated.. and i think uchiha kagami is a random uchiha..  what do you think guys??   Discuss



It's f......ing not!Else why would Tobi say over Danzo's dead body "that bastard destroyed shisui's eye" instead of saying "my eye"?


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## Brian (Oct 26, 2011)

Also during this war, Ao and the Sensor Division are keeping track of Tobi, Ao would have already recognize Tobi's chakra as Shisui's, if Tobi=Shisui


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## Tankaman (Oct 26, 2011)

lordhigh said:


> i'm guessing tobi is uchiha shisui...     even i wondered why he had to wear a mask if he is in fact madara.     but its most likely that madara is residing in shisui's body.    *the hairstyles of tobi and shisui look alike.
> *kabuto said that he could not find shisui's corpse.
> *he was so interested to get shisui's eye from danzo.
> *he used shisui's genjutsu on 4th mizukage..
> *He had earned the nickname of "Shisui of the Body Flicker" as 4th hokage as    yellow flash.    it could be said that shisui is not tobi.. coz, we saw the flash back  where kushina tells how the nine tailed fox is sealed inside naruto, we  get to see TOBI fighting 4th hokage. come to think of it... itachi is some 6-7 yrs old at that time... however Itachi thought of him as an OLDER BROTHER..  as for the coffin, i could not even make a guess. kabuto said he did not tell tobi's secret to a single soul. if its izuna or uchiha kagami  as many people say, whats secret in der? every one knows izuna is dead as tobi stated.. and i think uchiha kagami is a random uchiha..  what do you think guys??   Discuss



WTF YOU THEIF YOU TOOK MOST OF THIS FROM THREADS THIEF


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## lordhigh (Oct 26, 2011)

coz its shishui's body and inside it is madaras soul


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## Tian (Oct 26, 2011)

One very simple statement that makes me believe Izuna could be Tobi is because Izuna was considered Madara's equal.
Also the personality of Tobi was always sympathetic of Madara i.e. when Tobi said that Izuna gave the eye's willingly and so convincingly. That i believe is because he was the one who gave the eye's to Madara.  

I believe that it actually is Izuna Uchiha and it makes more sense then people are lead to believe. All we know about Izuna Uchiha are things that Itachi Uchiha learned from Tobi. We know that his eye's were taken and he died in battle supposedly but think about it this, has Tobi ever deactivated his Sharingan even once? No he hasn't. This suggests that they are transplanted. What if Madara killed an Uchiha to gift the eye's to his brother who sacrificed his eye's for his cause. He sacrifices his Mangekyou Sharingan for his Brother to maintain his Mangekyou Sharingan. At this point the uchiha believe Izuna Uchiha as being dead when he merely takes the guise of a masked man. 

Madara battles hashirama in a battle to obtain his cells and survives(supposedly) and continues his life in order to obtain the rinnengan and dies sometime around the second shinobi war suggesting that he lived about 30-40 years after the supposed deciding battle between madara and hashirama but this is just my own speculation. I believe he obtained the rinnengan through taking some of Hashirama's cells into his body. 

At this point the plan has been set in motion as Madara has indicated that he knew of Nagato who was born close to the era of the second shinobi war. Its possible that Madara died in order to gift the rinnengan to Nagato, someone gifted with Senju DNA as he is an Uzamaki and now gifted with Uchiha DNA from Madara's eye's he is allowed to use the rinnengan.The reason i believe this is because Izanagi works in this respect due to the fact that Uchiha and Senju are both the branch clans from the sage of the six paths himself, the man initially gifted with the rinnengan who was able to manipulate the state of matter itself. 

Once Madara had died, he knew he would be resurrected with the power of the rinnengan he gifted to this young boy because he would be guided by his brother Izuna. Izuna nurtured Nagato possibly by getting ninja to kill his parents through genjutsu, and getting ninja to attack him when he was with Yahiko. As Nagato Grew so did Izuna's realization of the plan. Izuna's next feet was to take control of the Kyuubi and getting it to attack Konoha. With this action it acts as a catalyst for the Uchiha to attempt a coop de^taut against Konoha. Soon as Itachi was drafted to kill off the Uchiha. Izuna see's the bond of Itachi and Sasuke and see's a similarity between them and Himself and Madara. This is when Izuna takes advantage of the situation and sets events in motion that could work in his favour if things go wrong.   

After this Everyone pretty much knows what has happened. Nagato fails and Sasuke was going to be given the eternal mangekyou in order to obtain to rinnengan and sync with Gedo Mazo until Kabuto comes along and offers a better solution of reviving Madara to his prime. He took a rinnengan for himself and to create his own six paths to equal his brother once more. 

I have full confidence that its Izuna but i guess people are going to disagree so can't really do much but state my opinion on the possibility of the events that occured and there reasons


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## insane111 (Oct 26, 2011)

Haha I finally caught up with the last few chapters. Was there a lot of "I told you so" threads that week? I'm sad I wasn't there to laugh in the face of all those people who 100% refused to even consider the possibility that Tobi could be someone else, despite all of the glaringly obvious hints.


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## Corrupt Shinobi (Oct 26, 2011)

It can't be Obito, remember, when Tobi fought the fourth hokage, Tobi was already a man, and around that time Naruto was born, Kakashi was 16 or so at the time. Tobi seemed to be in his late 40's.


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## Mikdoku Senin (Oct 27, 2011)

Tobi is the elder of the ridoku senin son. The one whom the uchiha descends from. FACT 27/10/2011

Can't believe no one put two and two together its obv when you think about it....

Who else in the manga could possibly achieve what tobi done I have the answers to your questions. Unless the author brings in a totally new character its the eldest son of the sage 27/10/2011 the day the riddle was solved

Can't believe no one put two and two together its obv when you think about it....


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## Ramen9 (Oct 27, 2011)

Tobi is a second Uchiha Madara!


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## Stelios (Oct 27, 2011)

no Tobi is Sasuke's mom she is the only Uchiha person that learned that Kushina is giving birth that day and then voila tobi is there.

[sp][/sp]

not really just saying.Ninja's are stupid and this whole battle of killing brother to take eyes wtf is this shit when they can just make a pact between them and just exchange eyes.


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## bach (Oct 27, 2011)

@ mangakyou sasuke

i had the same ideas, but there is something that i can't explain:

if tobi is an uchiha why he can't turn off his eyes?

in the manga is stated that a sharingan transplanted can't be turned off (like kakashi or danzou, and possibly nagato), while uchihas with eyes transplanted can use their eyes at their full (like sasuke or madara).

so if tobi is izuna why he can't deactivate hi sharingan or his rinnegan?


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## TSora (Oct 27, 2011)

According to this website: 

To can mean Ten

Tobi

Juubi

hmmm....interesting.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Oct 27, 2011)

Mikdoku Senin said:


> Tobi is the elder of the ridoku senin son. The one whom the uchiha descends from. FACT 27/10/2011
> 
> Can't believe no one put two and two together its obv when you think about it....
> 
> Who else in the manga could possibly achieve what tobi done I have the answers to your questions. Unless the author brings in a totally new character its the eldest son of the sage 27/10/2011 the day the riddle was solved



Uhm, no. The riddle was solved way before you. I has this thoery for like 2 weeks posted on other forum.


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## Escargon (Oct 27, 2011)

As Kabuto called Tobi Fake-Madara, im starting to think he really is a Zetsu clone.

Holy shit man.


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## Stelios (Oct 27, 2011)

Tobi is a possessed voodoo zetsu doll just like chuckie


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## Tian (Oct 27, 2011)

bach said:


> @ mangakyou sasuke
> 
> i had the same ideas, but there is something that i can't explain:
> 
> ...


The reason i believe that it makes sense is because if the transplant i done, the part transplanted stays the same. The reason why Sasuke and Madara and activate them at will is because its the eternal mangekyou sharingan and its designed that way. I believe that Izuna's sharingan is a normal one not a mangekyou meaning that he probably lost his mangekyou when he passed it Madara. I think that was the sacrifice he made. I also believe that the transplant in order to obtain the eternal mangekyou, the transplant must be done between a brother and a brother. Hence Izuna will not obtain an eternal mangekyou unless he takes Madara's after he gets a Mangekyou but i doubt he will obtain it simply because he would have to kill someone he dearly loves and i doubt there is any, maybe Madara.


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## son_michael (Oct 27, 2011)

Escargon said:


> As Kabuto called Tobi Fake-Madara, im starting to think he really is a Zetsu clone.
> 
> Holy shit man.



no way he's a zetsu clone, that's so anti climatic.


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (Oct 29, 2011)

it is the one and only orochimaru.


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## Escargon (Oct 29, 2011)

Half of the face is clearly Madaras old face link: Link removed , not Izuna, not anyone else, its Madaras.

Kishi shadowed the rest of the part. And he got bandage around the head, so it could be that Madara implanted some DNA to him and put some of Madaras own brain into his skull to make Tobi act like him. Holy shit. And he propably got Madaras warfan before Madara died.

If i remember correctly, half of the face looks old and when he turns to Zetsu, the other face looks really young. Shouldnt the wrinkles show up in that angle? IDK. 

This manga is crazy i tell ya! 

Maybe that white flesh is just a jutsu of his own. He can also harden his flesh. And in the fight vs the fourth if i remember correctly(otherwise this is useless) he seemed to bleed when he tried to take off his arm SO he did improve the ability later propably, which erases the Zetsu clone theory.

You might ask what ive been smoking. To be fair, i just made my own fan story cause this Tobi thing is so *ed up.

First i thought it was a dude with a scar on his face, then Obito, then Danzo, then Madara, then Izuna, then Zetsu-clone and now someone thats been experimented on. What will come next?


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## Cobyn (Oct 29, 2011)

*Who's Tobi?*

Someone may have said this before, but I don't care.

I personally believe Tobi could be the second, sage of six paths. 

During the fight between Konan and Tobi, Tobi mentioned that the Rinnegan was originally his and that he gave it to Nagato. 

At the end of the fight when Konan asked who he was he said something like "I am Uchiha Madara with Harashima Senju's power" So he is a combination on the Uchiha and the Senju Clan's powers which is also the power of the the sage of six paths.

When Tobi ends up finding Nagato and Yahiko's body he mentions that nagato was the third sage of six paths, we all know there was a first, the original one, so who was the second? And as Nagato got his Rinnegan from Tobi, currently fingers are pointing at Tobi.

Tobi wants all of the tailed beasts, and for what? To restore all his original power (and take over the world, with the moon's eye plan) All of the tailed beasts power made up to ten tailed beast which the sage of six paths sealed and as a result died. So it would be safe to say whoever has the power of the ten tailed beast would have the power of the sage of six paths. As Tobi said he wanted to restore his power that would mean at one point in time, that power was already his. 

These are a few reasons of who I think Tobi really is, I may be wrong but it's only a hunch.


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## Cobyn (Oct 29, 2011)

Totally random and unrelated, but is Tsunade's second name Senju? It would make a lot of sense


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## Cobyn (Oct 29, 2011)

Cobyn said:


> Totally random and unrelated, but is Tsunade's second name Senju? It would make a lot of sense



Come to think of it, we don't know any of the Sanin's Second name, do we?


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## son_michael (Oct 29, 2011)

@ Cobyn


The second sage of the six paths is Madara, Edo tensei Madara says that he awakened rinnegan before he died.  This means that Tobi is still trying to pass himself off as Madara or that he really does believe he's Madara but he's not lol



and yes, Tsunade is a senju. She is the gran daughter of the first Hokage, Senju Hashirama.


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## TS_Basilisk (Oct 29, 2011)

My thought on Tobi claiming ownership of the Rinnegan is this:

When Madara died, Tobi claimed his eyes. Note how he has a warehouse used to store Sharingan.

However, he had a problem: The Rinnegan was either not fully matured or Tobi did not understand its abilities. He needed somebody to incubate and experiment with it. Enter a young Uzumaki, who would be compatible and able to withstand the stress of using a foreign dojutsu. Tobi implanted the eyes and kept track on him, eventually backing Akatsuki.

This also raises the possibility that it was Tobi who murdered Nagato's parents, potentially having used the Konoha-nin via genjutsu. What Nagato thought was blacking out due to the Rinnegan, as happened later, was actually Madara swooping in and implanting the eyes.


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## Guru (Oct 29, 2011)

Anybody else hoping that He's a no name? 

Like he's actually just a guy called Tobi who's become insanely powerful etc. 

I mean all the theory's are about him being an uchiha, and as one poster accurately put it: 'this shouldn't be called naruto, it should be called Uchiha'. 

every fucking thing is about them. 

Izuna and kagami can fuck themselves, newcomer ftw


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## TheRipper (Oct 30, 2011)

Guru said:


> Anybody else hoping that He's a no name?
> 
> Like he's actually just a guy called Tobi who's become insanely powerful etc.
> 
> ...


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## VlAzGuLn (Oct 30, 2011)

he is obito  not himself just body is obito's


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## Jaybro (Oct 30, 2011)

Heh, interesting occurrence. I opened this thread and I was looking at the poll results, and for a second, I misread "Part Madara" as "_*Past*_ Madara".

What are the chances real Madara manipulated the Rinnegan to drag a past version of himself to present day? Considering Tobi has that S/T jutsu, it makes me wonder...


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## Tengu (Oct 30, 2011)

He is Madara-clone or maybe the older son of the Sage.


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## Cobyn (Oct 30, 2011)

son_michael said:


> @ Cobyn
> 
> 
> The second sage of the six paths is Madara, Edo tensei Madara says that he awakened rinnegan before he died.  This means that Tobi is still trying to pass himself off as Madara or that he really does believe he's Madara but he's not lol
> ...



But I thought Madara only has the Rinnegan, because didn't he take some of the first Hokage's DNA or something? Also if Madara is the sage of six paths then how is it possible that another person has the Rinnegan.

I've just clocked on the something, the past Jinjuriki also have the Rinnegan which was given to them by Tobi, just like Nagato, Tobi was able to transplant or give the eyes/power to anyone he wished, which would mean the power is originally his, or he is somehow able to clone them.


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## Itαchi (Oct 30, 2011)

It should be pretty obvious that he has to be Izuna.


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## ZetsuusteZ (Oct 30, 2011)

Am I the only one who would be really annoyed if it turned out that Tobi, this bad ass villain turns out to be a clone? 
I honestly want him to be Izuna just because he has motives to carry on his brothers name, he uses his brothers name because Izuna isn't well known enough to strike fear just from hearing the name.


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## son_michael (Oct 30, 2011)

Cobyn said:


> But I thought Madara only has the Rinnegan, because didn't he take some of the first Hokage's DNA or something? Also if Madara is the sage of six paths then how is it possible that another person has the Rinnegan.
> 
> I've just clocked on the something, the past Jinjuriki also have the Rinnegan which was given to them by Tobi, just like Nagato, Tobi was able to transplant or give the eyes/power to anyone he wished, which would mean the power is originally his, or he is somehow able to clone them.




The rinnegan can only be awakened with both Uchiha eyes and senju DNA. Madara isn't actually the sage of six path's he's just the second person to ever awaken the rinnegan which should technically classify him as another sage of the six paths.


The rinnegan given to the Jinchuriki are not new rinnegans. Think back at how Nagato's summon all had the rinnegan, in reality they didn't. Everytime Nagato got a new dead body or summon....he didn't create rinnegans, he just cast a jutsu on them. Tobi is using Nagato's rinnegan, the Jinchuriki's are probably under the "pain" jutsu, which means they each get a portion of the rinnegans power and shared vision.


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## Baron5X (Oct 31, 2011)

*one thing i haven't seen mentioned*

Alright, it seems like it's already pretty established that Tobi is NOT Madara but one thing that I think will add a little more to this is pointing out the reaction of the Nine-Tails/Kyubi to the resurrected Madara. Basically, he was like "F*** that guy" when he saw him, a reaction we never got before when Naruto encountered Tobi on at least a couple of different instances. So I think this pretty much expels Tobi being Madara at all.

In addition, going back to the Kyubi, if Tobi was a full-fledged Uchiha, why had the demon fox never reacted as much as he's reacted to other members of the clan (particularly Sauske and Itachi)? Does the demon fox at least have an idea about Tobi's identity? Why hasn't he recognized the Uchiha chakra in Tobi?

Run with this because I don't have a damn clue who Tobi is anymore and I don't think he's an Uchiha.


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## epyoncloud (Nov 3, 2011)

Tobi is the elder son of the Rikudo Sage, aka as the Uchiha Clan ancestor.


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## Almondsand (Nov 3, 2011)

The Kyuubi only reacted that way because Madara try to summon him.

Tobi is Madara, that is all.


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 3, 2011)

Almondsand said:


> The Kyuubi only reacted that way because Madara try to summon him.
> 
> Tobi is Madara, that is all.



If the Kyuubi recognized him as Madara you'd have a point, but he didn't.


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## UubPathnil (Nov 3, 2011)

I think he could either be Shisui or Fuagaku


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## Nep Nep (Nov 3, 2011)

You'd think Tobi=Madara arguments would be all but gone now I'm surprised but then again it IS you posting it Almondsand. 

You're not gonna give in till it's over are yeh?


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## Mima-sama (Nov 3, 2011)

I _still_ say that Tobi is really Cat Granny.
That, or Madara's brother. My money is on Cat Granny, though.


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## Rama (Nov 3, 2011)

epyoncloud said:


> Tobi is the elder son of the Rikudo Sage, aka as the Uchiha Clan ancestor.



Ive been thinking about this possibility for some time now and all I can think if is the elder sons eye design, is very similar to Tobi's way of Space Migration, still I cant take any more out of it really.


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## Greidy (Nov 3, 2011)

Morrigan_Aensland said:


> I _still_ say that Tobi is really Cat Granny.



Who is Cat Granny?


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## son_michael (Nov 3, 2011)

Ikorose said:


> Who is Cat Granny?



you don't remember when team Taka visited the ninja cats?


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## Mima-sama (Nov 3, 2011)

Ikorose said:


> Who is Cat Granny?


Do you not remember Cat Granny, she who lurks in the darkness, waiting to strike from above with her many, many ninja cats? She is affiliated with the Uchiha clan, so it makes perfect sense--

OH MY GAH
Guys, guys! What if *Cat Granny is Madara's mother?!*


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## Fay (Nov 3, 2011)

Morrigan_Aensland said:


> Do you not remember Cat Granny, she who lurks in the darkness, waiting to strike from above with her many, many ninja cats? She is affiliated with the Uchiha clan, so it makes perfect sense--
> 
> OH MY GAH
> Guys, guys! What if *Cat Granny is Madara's mother?!*



I actually thought of this as well...


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## Greidy (Nov 3, 2011)

Morrigan_Aensland said:


> Do you not remember Cat Granny, she who lurks in the darkness, waiting to strike from above with her many, many ninja cats?[/I][/B]



.........No, I can't say I do


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## Rama (Nov 3, 2011)

don't you guys remember this?


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## Barioth (Nov 8, 2011)

He is Sasuke Uchiha who use Capsule Corp Time Travel to warn himself that Naruto will kill him with bromance within 3 years. And prepare to give him his vaccine aka EYES


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## aifa (Nov 8, 2011)

I think Tobi is Izuna.. He got revived by Madara using Rinne Tensei shortly before Madara's death and do his bidding for him..


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## MYJC (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm still of the opinion that Tobi is a (rather evil) Zetsu clone (of Madara) that Madara created shortly before his death to carry out his plans. That said, Tobi probably has some of Hashirama's DNA. The side of his face we haven't seen probably looks like black Zetsu. He tends to cover that side of his face because he can't control his Sharingan on that side.


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## Saru (Nov 8, 2011)

Really?

You guys are just, like, floating along on a conveyor belt of conformity. 

I liked Turrin's Juubi theory. Because it was creative. 

But I'm not busting out any theories either.


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## The Gr8 Destroyer (Nov 8, 2011)

Tobi is Konohamaru


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 8, 2011)

MYJC said:


> He tends to cover that side of his face because he can't control his Sharingan on that side.



But he can control a Rinnegan just fine?


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## Kung Pow (Nov 9, 2011)

*Tobi contradiction?*

Since we can now conclude that Tobi is not Madara 
*Spoiler*: __ 



due to the last chapters


, I personally think there is a little contradiction.

Tobi?s plan is to gather all bijuu in order to revive Juubi, become its host and produce infinte Tsukiyomi on the moon.

Now how do his actions 16 years ago, when he was attacking Konoha by manipulating Kyuubi, in any way or form relate or contribute to his actual plan?

It doesn?t really make sense does it?

We know that Madara had a grudge against  Konoha, but since Tobi is not him his "agenda" should be different one.

So if Tobi was only using the Madara alias and "intentions" in order to throw everybody off track, what is his actual plan?


This one is actually one of my favorites

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIhHQDA7a8I&feature=relmfu[/YOUTUBE]




She is sweet and has some relevant facts to say too

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scq2BW-b2eI&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Killer Zylos Wolf (Nov 9, 2011)

We can't completely write off Tobi being Madara, as neither Tobi nor Madara have said anything about it. At this point, they(And possible Zetsu) are the only ones we can be for sure who knows the truth.

The recent chapters has clearly implied Tobi and Madara had some form of relationship with each other, and were planning this together. 

Tobi still wants to do Moon's Eye Plan. He even talked about it to himself, no reason to lie about it if no one is around to hear the truth.


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## Kung Pow (Nov 9, 2011)

In order for an Edo Tensei to be summoned the concerned person has to be dead, period.

So the indication of Tobi being Madara should be nullified at this point.

I do not refute that there might be a relationship between Tobi and Madara and they could have even known each other, but the fact that Tobi?s identiy cannot imply Madara is clear at this point in my opinion.
And the fact that Tobi has so forcibly tried to make people believe he is Madara only contributes to that fact.

Did you watch the first vid that I found?
The guy had a really nice theory^^ 

Kamui is a space time jutsu, who says that teleporting is limited to the present?
Since Tobi has shown such great proficiency with Kamui (far greater than Kakashi at this point) it might be possible that he could be from the future or a future dimension?

But back to topic, since most of Tobi?s "intentions" were linked and implicated to directly being Madara a lot of new questions pop up.

The attack on Konoha with Kyuubi makes absolutely no sense now, but why was Kyuubi resembling Madara?s Mangekyou Sharingan?
And why did Kyuubi remember when she talked to Sasuke "Just like Uchiha Madara *16 years ago?*"


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## Dboy2008 (Nov 9, 2011)

I think Tobi attacked the village because he figured it would have the least amount of defense at that moment. He'd literally just taken the Kyuubi, and the villagers were unaware, so they'd practically be sitting ducks. If he succeeds in killing everyone relevant, then he moves on to another village or sits back and watch the shitstorm that engulfs the world. If he can't kill everyone, the village will assume that the Uchiha did it and it dissolve the village from the inside out. OR, the village will assume another village did it and start a war.

The point is for the village itself, and hopefully the world, to fall to fear and start fighting one another. And once that happens, he does what he's doing now: work in the shadows to capture the bijuu whenever opportunity presents itself.

As far as the first video's theory that Tobi is Future Sasuke, I can't imagine Naruto thinking that's a good idea. it's essentially the same thing that Madara plans to do with the whole world. Doing it to Sasuke alone doesn't make it any better


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## Kung Pow (Nov 9, 2011)

Could Tobi attacking Konoha with Kyuubi have only been a further act in order for them to be certain he is Madara?
So why is it so important for him that everybody believes him to be Madara?


But then again, how could Tobi have even controlled Kyuubi?
He does not have Mangekyou Sharingan since he is not Madara.
But Kyuubi clearly showed Madara?s Mangekyou Sharingan and remembered clearly when talking to Sasuke "Your eyes are even more sinister than mine, just like Uchiha Madara *16years *ago"

So whats up with that?


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## motto (Nov 9, 2011)

We can not conclude that Tobi is not Madara.
Tobi could be a Madara clone, therefore Tobi is Madara.

Just wait and see.


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## Dboy2008 (Nov 9, 2011)

It was definitely a way to convince some people that he was Madara. Which can only be a positive for his goal. If they think it's Madara, they'll gear up and try to stand against him. Probably isolating their jinchuuriki in the process. If they don't believe it's Madara, they'll probably just fight each other. Either way is good for him

I think that any sharingan can influence the Kyuubi to an extent. It just requires prowess and a bit of raw power. If a person has acquired the MS, they've definitely passed the test. But I don't think it's a requirement to pass the test. If that makes sense

Also, I don't think the Kyuubi showed Madara's MS. It looked a little different

EDIT: I think we can write off Tobi being Madara or a clone of his creation. If it was some kind of clone, it probably wouldn't have persisted beyond his death. And I doubt that Edo Tensei would work on a person that still has part of his soul in this world. Technically his soul wasn't in the pure world, at least not completely


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## Kung Pow (Nov 9, 2011)

Do you remember when Sasuke broke Itachi?s Tsukiyomi and Zetsu explained that the Sharingan was just a weapon, and it?s strength its determined by the prowess of the wielder?

That might apply to simpler processes such as for example surpressing Kyuubi?s chakra like when Sasuke first saw Naruto in the crater.
It proves that there is a certain connection between the Sharingan and Kyuubi.

But the complete control of Kyuubi is still restricted to Mangekyou Sharingan since it is a special eye, and the stone in the Uchiha shrine specifically stated that the control of Kyuubi was one of its powers.


I don?t understand why people are still so desperately trying to convince themselves that there still is a chance for Tobi to be Madara

There is no doubt that there is a relationship between the two, but the character Tobi is neither physically or mentally Madara, since he was summoned by Edo Teinsei which just more than proves that Tobi cannot be a manifestiation of him.

Tobi was so eager for everybody to believe he is Madara, certainly part of his plan to be honest.

But if we just concluded that he is not Madara and also concluded all his actions regarding the publication of his plans to his enemies we need to ask ourselves what the real agenda is behind it.

How could Tobi aid from both having people think he is Madara and wanting to execute his plan he so openly revealed?


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## Killer Zylos Wolf (Nov 9, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> In order for an Edo Tensei to be summoned the concerned person has to be dead, period.
> 
> So the indication of Tobi being Madara should be nullified at this point.
> 
> ...



That just gives Kishi the perfect set up for an even bigger twist of Tobi being Madara. Fiction makes things that can't happen can happen. 

We don't know Tobi's identity, for all we know he is some way Madara and is just stating how it is. He has mentioned being a shell and whatnot, as well as wanting to be complete. Tobi might not be fully Madara as of now but still is in some form so he says he's Madara because he is Madara. 

I'm not interested in the videos. 

I really don't want Kishi to go down the "From the future" path, I have no problem with it overall I just don't want it in Naruto. I have a hard time seeing Kishi do something like it personally.


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## Dboy2008 (Nov 9, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> How could Tobi aid from both having people think he is Madara and wanting to execute his plan he so openly revealed?



I don't think they work congruently with each other, but the effect of both circumstances can be positive.

In the case that someone thinks he's Madara, there's gonna obviously be some people that say "  He's dead bro. Clearly you must think we're stupid... Matter fact, I think YOU had something to do with it! " And then they fight each other. And if they all really do think it's him, they might assume that he's coming for their jinchuuriki and will try to hide them. And then he'll just sneak around and snag them when he gets a chance. And then when they realize their jin is gone, they'll blame each other and start fighting 

He's very crafty, you see 

He could work in the shadow or in the open, really. If they stand divided, they'll destroy themselves. If they try to unite, he'll probably bet on them falling apart because he already knows people don't get along. And if they stay strong, he'll just play it by ear and see if he can get a hold of the bijuu ninja style


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## T-Bag (Nov 9, 2011)

while it does seem likely tobi =/= madara nothing is certain yet


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## Juuuuubi (Nov 9, 2011)

Why can't Americans ever pronounce anything correctly? UGH.

On topic: I guess it's possible just because of how far fetched the manga is already but I dont see how Madara and Sasuke would have thought up the plan together and why they would have met in the first place.


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## Kung Pow (Nov 9, 2011)

Killer Zylos Wolf said:


> That just gives Kishi the perfect set up for an even bigger twist of Tobi being Madara. Fiction makes things that can't happen can happen.
> 
> We don't know Tobi's identity, for all we know he is some way Madara and is just stating how it is. He has mentioned being a shell and whatnot, as well as wanting to be complete. Tobi might not be fully Madara as of now but still is in some form so he says he's Madara because he is Madara.
> 
> ...



That is exactly the point.

The idea of Tobi being Madara is dead, because Madara is dead due to being summoned by Edo Tensei.
Please people need to stop resorting to the typical "We don?t know yet, just wait" excuse.
Madara is dead, there isn?t more that we need to know about, there is no crafty Kishi plot hole that will turn everything around.
He is dead and Tobi cannot be Madara.

Now if we acknowledge that fact the contradictions come in.

1.)How could Tobi even control Kyuubi without Mangekyou Sharingan?

2.)Why was Madara?s Mangekyou Sharingan resembled in Kyuubis eye?

3.)Why did Kyuubi say to Sasuke "Your eyes are more sinister than mine, just like Uchiha Madara?s *16 years ag*o?

All these actions and events demanded Madara to be present.

Tobi is not Madara, but he must have been Madara in order for the aforementioned events to be logical.

So how did Tobi do it?


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## Talis (Nov 9, 2011)

Kyuubi just said: ''YOU?!'' to Tobi.
Kyuubi even wasn't sure if he was Madara or not the proof is simple if Kyuubi was 100% sure that it was Madara he would have gone wild like he did a few chapter ago inside Naruto. The reason why Kyuubi had thought about Kyuubi being Madara is because Madara was the only one be able to controle Kyuubi back then.
Of course the question is if Hashirama did controle the Kyuubi to @ the VOTE battle. I'd say yes, so Kyuubi might have recorgnized Tobi as Hashirama too.


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## Kung Pow (Nov 9, 2011)

loool3 said:


> Kyuubi just said: ''YOU?!'' to Tobi.
> Kyuubi even wasn't sure if he was Madara or not the proof is simple if Kyuubi was 100% sure that it was Madara he would have gone wild like he did a few chapter ago inside Naruto. The reason why Kyuubi had thought about Kyuubi being Madara is because Madara was the only one be able to controle Kyuubi back then.
> Of course the question is if Hashirama did controle the Kyuubi to @ the VOTE battle. I'd say yes, so Kyuubi might have recorgnized Tobi as Hashirama too.



You did not read my post close enough.

I was talking about Kyuubi telling Sasuke that "Eyes more sinister than my own, just like Uchiha Madara *16 years ago*".

In addition to that, at the attack of Konoha Kyuubi?s eyes were also resembling the Mangekyou of Madara, implicating that it was controlled by it.

What do you mean Kyuubi just thought it was Madara?
Lol, it didn?t have any knowledge about who could do what, while manipulating it with Manegekyou "Madara" probably introduced himself.

But since Tobi is not Madara, but was shown next to Kyuubi, there is a contradiciton.
Also because Madara?s Mangekyou was showing in Kyuubi?s eyes, and Tobi is not Madara is contradictory.

Lastly Kyuubi saying "Just like Uchiha Madara?s eyes *16 years* ago when Tobi was controllinig Kyuubi which also should not have been possible, since he is not Uchiha Madara and should not have his  Mangekyou Sharingan, still that was exactly what was showing in Kyuubi?s eyes.


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## Roydez (Nov 9, 2011)

Tobi = Hinata.


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## Talis (Nov 9, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> You did not read my post close enough.
> 
> I was talking about Kyuubi telling Sasuke that "Eyes more sinister than my own, just like Uchiha Madara *16 years ago*".
> 
> ...



That 3 tomoed Sharingan on Kyuubis face with the tomoes on the edge?
That didnt even look close to Madaras MS lol.
But anyways, i am sure Kyuubi was refering to the Madara @ the VOTE not of the one 16 years ago.


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## speedblitzer (Nov 9, 2011)

perhaps tobi is non other than the Jūbi? 
just like zorc & yami bakura(yugioh)


i recall when kakashi asked tobi of why he is collecting all the tailed beast and answered: "well if you must know... it is to become complete..."

and i thought he was incomplete just because he has no more EMS.


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## Barioth (Nov 15, 2011)

The Gr8 Destroyer said:


> Tobi is Konohamaru


 Naw he is Konohamaru's missing FATHER! STAY TUNE ON NEXT TIME OF NARUTO BALL GT!


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## Enzo (Nov 15, 2011)

I go with Izuna as well.


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## juanlove318 (Feb 12, 2012)

*Tobi's identity is so obvious...*

If we all would have payed attention to the Naruto databook 3 we would have noticed the obvious. Tobi is Izuna Uchiha. They are the same weight 55.9 kg and a lil different in height Izuna-68.819 in and Tobi-68.898 in. Tobi even saying Izuna gave his eyes to Madara. He was talking about himself. The only thing that puzzles me is that Izuna died but we are forgetting Madara awakened the Rinnegan which he could have used to revive Izuna. Also, Tobi said they were my eyes to begin with meaning he is Izuna. And we finally get to see why Sasuke is so special for Itachi to keep him alive and what Madara and Tobi/Izuna plans are for him.


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## dream (Feb 12, 2012)

Hmm, the weight could just be a coincidence but I wouldn't mind Tobi being Izuna.


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## Iruel (Feb 12, 2012)

juanlove318 said:


> If we all would have payed attention to the Naruto databook 3 we would have noticed the obvious. Tobi is Izuna Uchiha. They are the same weight 55.9 kg and a lil different in height Izuna-68.819 in and Tobi-68.898 in. Tobi even saying Izuna gave his eyes to Madara. He was talking about himself. The only thing that puzzles me is that Izuna died but we are forgetting Madara awakened the Rinnegan which he could have used to revive Izuna. Also, Tobi said they were my eyes to begin with meaning he is Izuna. And we finally get to see why Sasuke is so special for Itachi to keep him alive and what Madara and Tobi/Izuna plans are for him.



I'd like Izuna to be Tobi very much. I hope his is, but who knows how Kishi will go with this one...


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## Chibason (Feb 12, 2012)

Maybe OP......


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## blacksword (Feb 12, 2012)

Tobi is Obito. It's so obvoius.


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 12, 2012)

Of course it's Izuna.

He is Madara's brother (wich means that he looks like him and therefore Kisame thought that he was Madara, same with all the other people), has the same weight as Tobi, Tobi is only slightly taller (but Kishi was probably referring to Izuna's height when he died, so if he's Tobi he could've grown a bit more), and above all else he know's everything about Madara and the Uchiha. Madara Probably revived Izuna with Gedo Rinne Tensei no jutsu??? Who know's. PS: Tobi is also weird, his arms are made of jelly or something? Look at the liquid when he "cut" loose his arm after touching Torume, that was far from blood, and he got his arm back right after he fought Konan ... What the hell is he also???

I'm 95% sure that Tobi is Izuna. So lets wait and see.


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## T-Bag (Feb 12, 2012)

its fugaku..


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## Swagger Wagon (Feb 12, 2012)

The data stats find isn't anything new. It's been brought up here a lot.
I do find it interesting that Kishi would add Izuna's stats in though while keeping Madara's on the down-low.

Given Tobi's apparent emotional arm-clutching response to remembering Izuna's sacrifice, brotherly bonds playing a big role in this manga, and Tobi's fervently claiming the rinnegan rightfully belongs to him (which would make sense seeing as Izuna's eyes would've been the ones evolving into the rinnegan while in Madara's possession) I'm really expecting Tobi to be Izuna
Izuna in Obito's body to mindfuck Kakashi


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## Butō Rengoob (Feb 12, 2012)

I fully support Tobi = Izuna. Anything but will be a major bummer.


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## Xerces (Feb 12, 2012)

Tobi being Izuna would be discrediting Kishimoto as a writer, as its far too obvious. One must realize that Izuna is merely a red-herring placed by Kishi to confuse readers. This wouldn't be the first time Kishi used this clever literary technique 

*In my opinion, Tobi is Uchiha Kagami:* The sole Uchiha on the same team as Tobirama Senju, Danzo, Hiruzen and the two elders. Tobirama was the brother of Hashirama who defeated Madara at the VoTE. Danzo, Hiruzen, and the 2 elders were all responsible for the Uchiha massacre. Now ask yourself, is it just a coincidence that Kishimoto would place an Uchiha on this team? 

Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. Remember, 'Tobi' has manipulated Sasuke into seeking revenge on Danzo, and the two elders - all three of whom were on the same team as Uchiha Kagami. 

Uchiha Kagami's connection to Madara? Kagami is Madara's son.


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## juanlove318 (Feb 12, 2012)

I was thinking the same thing. Tobi could be Kagami and that he was Madara's son. And that Obito and Shisui was related to him in some way because his eye powers are similar to their mangekyo sharingan powers. Nice theory. But some times the obvious is given like Minato being Naruto's dad.


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## Seraphiel (Feb 12, 2012)

That same databook confirms he died in battle after willingly giving Madara his yes, so yeah.


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## blacksword (Feb 12, 2012)

> In my opinion, Tobi is Uchiha Kagami:


Tobi being some 1-panel fodder Uchiha will be retarded.


----------



## NearRyuzaki ?? (Feb 12, 2012)

I would prefer him to be Izuna from the others, quite like the idea of him being Kagami since we know little about him.

I also keep getting a feeling he might have some connection to the Zetsu's on how the liquid came off his arm that he cut off because of Torune and how he either regenerated it, could have got a new one somehow though.


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## Seraphiel (Feb 12, 2012)

blacksword said:


> Tobi being some 1-panel fodder Uchiha will be retarded.



That's the main problem with Kagami for me, he was in like 2 panels rofl, such bad writing if it's him.


----------



## Xerces (Feb 12, 2012)

blacksword said:


> Tobi being some 1-panel fodder Uchiha will be retarded.



How many panels has Izuna been in? 3-4? Your argument is invalid


----------



## ImSerious (Feb 12, 2012)

Xerces said:


> *In my opinion, Tobi is Uchiha Kagami:* The sole Uchiha on the same team as Tobirama Senju, Danzo, Hiruzen and the two elders. Tobirama was the brother of Hashirama who defeated Madara at the VoTE. Danzo, Hiruzen, and the 2 elders were all responsible for the Uchiha massacre. Now ask yourself, is it just a coincidence that Kishimoto would place an Uchiha on this team?
> 
> Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. Remember, 'Tobi' has manipulated Sasuke into seeking revenge on Danzo, and the two elders - all three of whom were on the same team as Uchiha Kagami.
> 
> Uchiha Kagami's connection to Madara? Kagami is Madara's son.



Now this sounds interesting


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## Octavian (Feb 12, 2012)

lol who the fuck is kagami?  atleast izuna was madara's brother


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## Palpatine (Feb 12, 2012)

The theory of Tobi being the embodiment of the Ten Tails malevolence has grown on me. There are numerous aspects and clues in the manga that I think could justify this.

But the same could be said for Izuna being Tobi. I'd be pretty okay with either.


----------



## T-Bag (Feb 12, 2012)

tobi has be somebody that even a casual reader (not just nerds like us.. ) can recognize. nobodyy is gona recongize kagami, izuna, obito.. characters who didnt show up for more than 1- 2 panels, and werent mentioned throughout most the manga  

but everybody knows fugaku, thats itachi's and sasukes father, not just that but theres a lot of things we dont know about him.


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## Xerces (Feb 12, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> tobi has be somebody that even a casual reader (not just nerds like us.. ) can recognize. nobodyy is gona recongize kagami, izuna, obito.. characters who didnt show up for more than 1- 2 panels, and werent mentioned throughout most the manga
> 
> but everybody knows fugaku, thats itachi's and sasukes father, not just that but theres a lot of things we dont know about him.



 

It can't be Fugaku because we see Itachi standing over his dead body. Itachi claimed that Tobi helped him during the massacre.

I honestly wouldn't mind if it was though


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## Psychic (Feb 12, 2012)

Tobi has to be Fugaku. Its just alot more fun and entertaining. Fugaku was not home on the night of Narutos birth when the Kyuubi was realeased, he was the head chief of police, his own son was sent to investigate their clan. How is it possible that he has two strong sons, but he himself is weak? If Narutos father is the 4th Hokage, then Sasukes father must be the Akatsuki Leader! Maybe he is Madaras grandson as well. Maybe  the one Itachi killed was just a zetsu clone of them. And the last person Kushina talked to was Sasukes mom, who probably told her husband, Fugaku of the move.


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## T-Bag (Feb 12, 2012)

Xerces said:


> It can't be Fugaku because we see Itachi standing over his dead body. Itachi claimed that Tobi helped him during the massacre.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't mind if it was though



wana bet it was all a genjutsu? think about this.. every character close to tobi has seen madara's face except sasuke...

he's fugaku, trust me man


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## Swagger Wagon (Feb 12, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> That same databook confirms he died in battle after willingly giving Madara his yes, so yeah.


The databook also says "Tobi is really Uchiha Madara" 
If he can be referred to as Madara throughout the whole DB then I don't see why Izuna's death can't be a red herring as well.


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## T-Bag (Feb 12, 2012)

Kasumi said:


> Tobi has to be Fugaku. Its just alot more fun and entertaining. Fugaku was not home on the night of Narutos birth when the Kyuubi was realeased, he was the head chief of police, his own son was sent to investigate their clan. How is it possible that he has two strong sons, but he himself is weak? If Narutos father is the 4th Hokage, then Sasukes father must be the Akatsuki Leader! Maybe he is Madaras grandson as well. Maybe  the one Itachi killed was just a zetsu clone of them. And the last person Kushina talked to was Sasukes mom, who probably told her husband, Fugaku of the move.



fucking exactly! ANDD AND

fugaku was not revived.  the leader of the uchiha was not revived for the war... sounds fishy much?


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## Crona (Feb 12, 2012)

Well, if he is Tobi then he should have no eyes as Madara had taken them to get EMS. I guess they could have exchanged eyes (it really depends on how EMS is exactly created) and both could have ended up with EMS or he could have stolen an eye. However, I like the idea of Izuna dying and driving Madara to the edge against the Senju. 

And I would say Kagami actually has more panel significance because he was actually given a name in the manga, whereas Izuna was never given a name in the manga. Both had almost the same amount of panel time too.

Fugaku would be a nice mind fuck though.


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## Xerces (Feb 12, 2012)

Last time I checked, Fugaku wasn't made from Zetsu goop. Furthermore, Tobi is unable to use any jutsu, probably because he doesn't gave any chakra. Fugaku has been shown to use _Grand Fireball Jutsu_

Although its a fun idea, Tobi and Fugaku aren't the same entity.


----------



## juanlove318 (Feb 12, 2012)

Fugaku's hair is so different from Tobi's. I don't know about that one.


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## Yozora (Feb 12, 2012)

tobi is NO ONE that we knows


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## T-Bag (Feb 12, 2012)

Xerces said:


> Last time I checked, Fugaku wasn't made from Zetsu goop. Furthermore, Tobi is unable to use any jutsu, probably because he doesn't gave any chakra. Fugaku has been shown to use _Grand Fireball Jutsu_
> 
> Although its a fun idea, Tobi and Fugaku aren't the same entity.



well that would just make it blatantly obvious. maybe fugaku survived itachi's onslaught and had to resort to zetsu left behind by madara...?


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## Chibason (Feb 12, 2012)

I like the Kagami idea. At least he had some significance to the Hokage and other high ranking Konoha figures. 

Elder son is another idea I've began to liek a little more lately...

Btw, I'm still the only one who suggests that Tobi is Yamato. 

You guys can dismiss it now, but don't forget who predicted it


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## Octavian (Feb 12, 2012)

Chibason said:


> I like the Kagami idea. At least he had some significance to the Hokage and other high ranking Konoha figures.
> 
> Elder son is another idea I've began to liek a little more lately...
> 
> ...



didn't yamato "restrain" tobi while tobi talked with naruto about sasuke?


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## Xerces (Feb 12, 2012)

Chibason said:


> Btw, I'm still the only one who suggests that *Tobi is Yamato. *
> 
> You guys can dismiss it now, but don't forget who predicted it





Yamato is a _bunshin_ master eh?


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## blacksword (Feb 12, 2012)

> How many panels has Izuna been in? 3-4? Your argument is invalid


I don't care about Izuna. 

Tobi is Obito.


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## Chibason (Feb 12, 2012)

Guess you guys forgot... Yamato can make perfect Moku bunshins.


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## Crona (Feb 12, 2012)

Chibason said:


> *Tobi is Yamato*.



He better keep that mask on then 

I was expecting a bishie


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## blacksword (Feb 12, 2012)

Tobi can't be Izuna, Kagami, RS, Elder Son, Jubi and other retarded candidates because they were all introduced only after Tobi's first appereance in the manga.

Tobi is someone who came before chapter 280


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## T-Bag (Feb 12, 2012)

^ that leaves fugaku


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## First Tsurugi (Feb 12, 2012)

Izuna is the second most likely after Obito in my view.

The databook point is interesting but the databooks are notoriously unreliable for information.


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## Chibason (Feb 12, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> so ur saying yamato created tobi and fought himself to avoid suspicion to continue his grand master plan while he uses tobi (his clone) as a decoy..
> 
> i like it



In that scene, the Yamato we saw would have been the perfect clone. 

It should be noted that throughout Naruto's growth, Yamato has always remained close by, training him and watching his progress.... 

Not unlike the way Tobi is so interested in Sasuke's growth. 


When shit got real, and War broke out, who conveniently went missing? 

Isn't it peculiar that Tobi finally began to make his moves once Yamato was 'captured'? Oh, and he wasn't killed, but rather placed into the Mokuton Tree of Life with the Shodai clone...lol

Orochimaru thought all of his test subjects died.... was Yamato really one of them? 

If so, what made him different? How did he survive? Hmm...maybe he was the only one Orochimaru spliced Madara's genes in with?


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## Xerces (Feb 12, 2012)

Yozora said:


> tobi is NO ONE that we knows



*This is actually a very important clue to revealing the identity to Tobi. *

The last few chapters have had an underlying theme of names (all the names of the Bijuu) and identity (Naruto acknowledging Kurama as a partner and not a monster). It's no coincidence that Kishimoto wrote a few lines regarding the name and identity of Tobi himself.


*Spoiler*: __ 








When Naruto persisted on finding out the names of the Bijuu, he succeeded. However, when he tried with Tobi, he failed. Furthermore, after Tobi claims to have no identity, he starts talking about Bijuu. Perhaps Tobi and the Bijuu are connected?

*How are Tobi and the Bijuu connected?:* Perhaps 'Tobi' was a by-product created when the Rikudou Sennin split the Juubi into 9 parts. But why only 9 parts, shouldnt RS have split the Bijuu equally into 10 parts? He did. Tobi is the last part 

Naruto has learned 9 identities so far, and Tobi's will be the tenth.


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## Frostman (Feb 12, 2012)

Why are people limiting his identity to Uchiha. He could be anyone at this point.


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## blacksword (Feb 12, 2012)

> ^ that leaves fugaku


Fugaku and Obito. But when you compare their personalities Tobi being Obito is more likely.


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## First Tsurugi (Feb 12, 2012)

Frostman said:


> Why are people limiting his identity to Uchiha. He could be anyone at this point.



There's a lot more suggesting he's an Uchiha than there is suggesting he isn't.


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## Chibason (Feb 12, 2012)

blacksword said:


> Tobi can't be Izuna, Kagami, RS, Elder Son, Jubi and other retarded candidates because they were all introduced only after Tobi's first appereance in the manga.
> 
> Tobi is someone who came before chapter 280



Interestingly enough, Yamato was introduced just a few chapters later in 284


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## Chibason (Feb 12, 2012)

The thing I don't get with Fugaku is that he was the leader of the Uchiha....meaning he was in control of the clan...

Why would he want to kill them?


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## First Tsurugi (Feb 12, 2012)

Not to mention Itachi would be a total retard for not realizing he was conspiring with his own father.


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## juanlove318 (Feb 12, 2012)

You guys it can't be Fugaku. Look at his hair. Tobi's hair is nothing like that even when it was long.


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## Yozora (Feb 12, 2012)

Chibason said:


> The thing I don't get with Fugaku is that he was the leader of the Uchiha....meaning he was in control of the clan...
> 
> Why would he want to kill them?



Uchiha clan is full of fodders and he need their eyes.


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## Swagger Wagon (Feb 12, 2012)

blacksword said:


> Fugaku and Obito. But when you compare their personalities Tobi being Obito is more likely.


Neither of Tobi's personalities resemble that of Obito.
Obito was an insecure crybaby who was constantly struggling to put on a tough face.
If you're comparing him to early Tobi then Obito has never been portrayed as playful or goofy; heck the first time he even smiled on panel excluding his chapter cover was when he was dying and offering Kakashi the sharingan.

He's even less similar to evil!Tobi.



			
				First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> Not to mention Itachi would be a total retard for not realizing he was conspiring with his own father.


= why I don't support the Fugaku theory.


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## T-Bag (Feb 12, 2012)

juanlove318 said:


> You guys it can't be Fugaku. Look at his hair. Tobi's hair is nothing like that even when it was long.



never heard of a hair cut or a alternate hairstyle?


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## blacksword (Feb 12, 2012)

> Neither of Tobi's personalities resemble that of Obito.
> Obito was an insecure crybaby who was constantly struggling to put on a tough face.
> If you're comparing him to early Tobi then Obito has never been portrayed as playful or goofy; heck the first time he even smiled on panel excluding his chapter cover was when he was dying and offering Kakashi the sharingan.


tobi is goofball like Obito. Both very talkative and kind of cowardly Uchihas compared to rest. And that's enough for me

All other Uchihas are arrogant pricks.


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## Ezekial (Feb 13, 2012)

Obviously he's Izuna, Same height & weight, When Tobi mentioned Izuna "giving" Madara his eyes he clenched his arm, he is power hungry hence why he took Madara's name, he is the only Uchiha who could match Madara's power.


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## blacksword (Feb 13, 2012)

> Obviously he's Izuna, Same height & weight, When Tobi mentioned Izuna "giving" Madara his eyes he clenched his arm, he is power hungry hence why he took Madara's name, he is the only Uchiha who could match Madara's power.


Bullshit.

Izuna's name wasn't even mentioned in the manga. He is irrelevant. No one would give a darn if Izuna was behind the mask. Obito on the other hand is the most plausible candidate.

Obito would also be upset and clench his arm because he also had the same experience.


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## Golden Circle (Feb 13, 2012)

Well the thing about Tobi=Fugaku is that we saw him lying dead in a pool of blood...





blacksword said:


> Bullshit.


I have a better idea:

We neg you time you mention the Tobito theory.



> Izuna's name wasn't even mentioned in the manga. He is irrelevant.


Irrelevant enough to appear in the databook.



> No one would give a darn if Izuna was behind the mask.


Nice to see you talking for everyone there.



> Obito on the other hand is the most plausible candidate.


The most dead plausible candidate you mean.



> Obito would also be upset and clench his arm because he also had the same experience.


Except that Obito is a nice guy, not a megalomaniac intent on hypnotizing the world, and is significantly younger than Tobi.


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## blacksword (Feb 13, 2012)

> Irrelevant enough to appear in the databook.


Databook is irrelevant.



> Nice to see you talking for everyone there.


It's general consensus. Izuna is just throwaway character. Most logical=/=Most shocking.
Obito is most interesting and shocking revelation while Izuna is the most boring option(albeit a logical)



> The most dead plausible candidate you mean.


Everyone thought that Madara died at Vote but he survived and lived long enough to meet Nagato. Plus the fact that Obito is not dead will add to the suprise factor.



> Except that Obito is a nice guy, not a megalomaniac intent on hypnotizing the world, and is significantly younger than Tobi.
> __________________


He was nice guy in flashback. But people change in this manga.


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## Michael Lucky (Feb 13, 2012)

Tobi is Fukubei


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## blacksword (Feb 13, 2012)

> Kishimoto isn't writing a mystery/suspense manga. If it's a logical, obvious choice then expect it, remember the Akatsuki leader's reveal being anti-climatic, then Pain identity being the obvious choice.


so what you're implying? lol


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## Axccel (Feb 13, 2012)

Did you guys see the newest Naruto episode? For some strange reason they did not put in any of the elders and ninja during Tobirama's last mission even tho they all appear to be alive in the manga (EXCEPT Kagami was nowhere to be seen).. The animators may have already been informed who is Tobi and clearly ommited that scene on purpose.


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## Deleted member 183504 (Feb 13, 2012)

Tobi is the Sage of the Six Paths.


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## blacksword (Feb 13, 2012)

> Tobi is the Sage of the Six Paths.


And he doesn't even know the name of the bijuus


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## Slayer (Feb 13, 2012)

blacksword said:


> Tobi being some 1-panel fodder Uchiha will be retarded.



I believe that it is very possible. Have you read one piece? Marco a top tier fighter was fisrt show has just some random fodder in the background. Kishi could very well have done the same.


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## blacksword (Feb 13, 2012)

> I believe that it is very possible. Have you read one piece? Marco a top tier fighter was fisrt show has just some random fodder in the background. Kishi could very well have done the same.


First of all. One Pice is crap.
Secondly, Marco has always been fodder.


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## Benzaiten (Feb 13, 2012)

LOL Fugaku... It was always between Obito and Izuna but Obito's age doesn't fit. If Kishimoto decides to give Tobi an identity then Izuna is the only reasonable option. Tobi helped Itachi with the Uchiha massacre so I highly doubt he's really Fugaku, the leader of the damn revolution that started this shit in the first place. Why would he even orchestrate the killing of his clan after clearly organizing a rebellion?


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## BroKage (Feb 13, 2012)

It really decently explains why Tobi is so closely connected to Madara but has no MS to show for it.

Tobi clenched his arms when telling the story of the eye-offering. It was clearly troublesome to remember.


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## blacksword (Feb 13, 2012)

> It really decently explains why Tobi is so closely connected to Madara but has no MS to show for it.


The most reasonable from majority's standpoint =/= the most intersting/exciting


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## Slayer (Feb 13, 2012)

blacksword said:


> First of all. One Pice is crap.



Matter of opinion. 



blacksword said:


> Secondly, Marco has always been fodder.



Taking on an admiral, Being Whitebeards Second in Command, and defending some of whitebeards territories from Blackbeard is a fodder feat?

Either way I was simply Bringing up the possibility.


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## Udontard4ever (Feb 13, 2012)

Izuna is the most obvious and likely option.
But also the most boring, I'd prefer anyone else


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## TJFuZioN (Feb 13, 2012)

Notice how people aren't nearly as dismissive of The Obito theory as they used to be. The Second Coming is nigh!


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## blacksword (Feb 13, 2012)

> Notice how people aren't nearly as dismissive of The Obito theory as they used to be. The Second Coming is nigh!


yeah, I noticed it

it's pretty funny


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## bloodyhawk (Feb 13, 2012)

yes let him be i don`t really care at least its better then him being obito


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## Star★Platinum (Feb 13, 2012)

Izuna/Kagami I wouldn't mind 'too' much.
I still think he's just a creation of Madara's and someone's, using hashirama DNA (zetsu goop) And Madara's DNA/whatever makes him so intimate with Madara's history and such.  Also explaining (Like in a thread of mine) Why he calls himself 'no-one' (because he was only created for one purpose, he doesn't need an identity). etc.  The main body could quite possibly be Kagami/Izuna/Obito and the theory still fits.


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## harryd (Feb 13, 2012)

I feel like obito and (dare I say it) the Yamato theories are the most plausible, to me, the casual reader.

Both over Izuna because of the relevance concept. Because I didnt know who the crap izuna was until i was paging through all these "who is tobi" threads!!

Im not super into Naruto, im a casual reader, so i feel like I have a good view of who would be completely irrelevant in the eyes of the average reader.

*Obito* is plausible because of the zetsu goop and kakashi eye thing. Those simply fit. to an extent of nothing in the Izuna theory(to me). 

The problems I see with Obitio is he has NO motive. Also he is currently acting way too calm about Naruto. How would Obito know so much about him, to the extent of not worrying at all(the little dude just leveled up like 3 times, how is he calm?)


*Yamato* is so far fetched but I like it, because everyone knows him, and noone would think its him. I like how he kept a close eye on naruto during training, and how he is "somehow" able to control the nine tails from exploding. Plus him getting captured was kind of lame and wimpy to me. Idk, this theory is soooo out there, but I really like it.

And as I said before, I didnt ever hear of izuna before paging through these threads. for that alone I dont like it. can some one link me to when he was actually in the manga? or was he?


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## Lord Valgaav (Feb 13, 2012)

Tobi is No One obviously. Hes a demon from an alternate dimension who enjoys trolling wizard ninja.


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## Viper (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm actually starting to lose interest in his identity. It's been going on way too long.


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## T-Bag (Feb 13, 2012)

Benzaiten said:


> LOL Fugaku... It was always between Obito and Izuna but Obito's age doesn't fit. If Kishimoto decides to give Tobi an identity then Izuna is the only reasonable option. Tobi helped Itachi with the Uchiha massacre so I highly doubt he's really Fugaku, the leader of the damn revolution that started this shit in the first place. Why would he even orchestrate the killing of his clan after clearly organizing a rebellion?



cause he's bi polar... look at sasuke and itachi...

all makes sense


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## Haloman (Feb 13, 2012)

ViperXRockwave said:


> I'm actually starting to lose interest in his identity. It's been going on way too long.



Sounds like someone thought he was Madara~


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## Closet Pervert (Feb 13, 2012)

Halo2298 said:


> Sounds like someone thought he was Madara~


I've kind of lost interest too, and i never once called him "Madara".


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## Morgan (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't know who, I just know it's not Obito. If Obito survived, he should be the same age as Kakashi and Guy in Minato's flashback, not some old, decrepit man. And don't tell me Minato couldn't see through a transformation jutsu. He wears a mask, we get it, but to go as far as drastically changing your physical appearance is just pointless. I fail to see what that would accomplish.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2012)

ViperXRockwave said:


> I'm actually starting to lose interest in his identity. It's been going on way too long.



Yeah. I hope he takes his mask off voluntarily within the next thirty chapters...


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## TJFuZioN (Feb 13, 2012)

morganmorgy said:


> I don't know who, I just know it's not Obito. If Obito survived, he should be the same age as Kakashi and Guy in Minato's flashback, not some old, decrepit man. And don't tell me Minato couldn't see through a transformation jutsu. He wears a mask, we get it, but to go as far as drastically changing your physical appearance is just pointless. I fail to see what that would accomplish.



True. The Obito theory makes no sense. But neither does anything Tobi does! (I mean he could've just come back the day after Minato died and stolen baby Naruto. Hell, he could've collected all the bijuu by himself!)

The fact that this theory has the least holes in it, second only to the Tobi=Juubi, should tell you something about the state of the manga.

Still f*king love it, though.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Feb 13, 2012)

For future purposes, when it's revealed that Obito is Tobi:

Tobi is Obito.


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## Xerces (Feb 13, 2012)

Xerces said:


> Tobi being Izuna would be discrediting Kishimoto as a writer, as its far too obvious. One must realize that Izuna is merely a red-herring placed by Kishi to confuse readers. This wouldn't be the first time Kishi used this clever literary technique
> 
> *In my opinion, Tobi is Uchiha Kagami:* The sole Uchiha on the same team as Tobirama Senju, Danzo, Hiruzen and the two elders. Tobirama was the brother of Hashirama who defeated Madara at the VoTE. Danzo, Hiruzen, and the 2 elders were all responsible for the Uchiha massacre. Now ask yourself, is it just a coincidence that Kishimoto would place an Uchiha on this team?
> 
> ...



One thing I forgot to mention is the decision for the masked man to conciously call himself 'Tobi'. He told Naruto he was 'nobody', but why has he reffered to himself as 'Tobi' in the past? The alias of Tobi is nothing more than an homage to Tobi's former squad-leader: *Tobi*rama Senju

There is a particular significance and a reason why Tobi chose to use this alias: It is my belief that Tobi's intangibility and space-time techniques were derived from Tobirama himself. Remember, when fighting Tobi, Minato referenced Tobirama Senju's S/T techniques: 



Kishimoto has written Minato as a perfect character, who never has wrong judgement.  Minato himself stated that Tobi could not be Uchiha Madara, and then linked him to Tobirama Senju. Kagami, Madara, Tobi and Tobirama are all linked to eachother in one way or another. If Uchiha Kagami, the sole Uchiha on Tobirama's squad, is the son of Madara, everything falls into place.


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## Trueno (Feb 13, 2012)

He's Masashi Kishimoto himself and that's why only Naruto can win. And that's the reason why he can't reveal who he is because Tobi can't say he is Kishimoto or the fabric of the manga and anime will be torn apart costing him all his rep and hard earned cash.


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## falsepod (Feb 13, 2012)

Xerces said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is the decision for the masked man to conciously call himself 'Tobi'. He told Naruto he was 'nobody', but why has he reffered to himself as 'Tobi' in the past? The alias of Tobi is nothing more than an homage to Tobi's former squad-leader: *Tobi*rama Senju
> 
> There is a particular significance and a reason why Tobi chose to use this alias: It is my belief that Tobi's intangibility and space-time techniques were derived from Tobirama himself. Remember, when fighting Tobi, Minato referenced Tobirama Senju's S/T techniques:
> 
> ...



The eyes and nose line are the same and the hair is quite similar...


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## Shadow Slayer (Feb 13, 2012)

All I know is one very important chapter when Tobi was recruiting Kisame. 1. When Tobi said he was Madara, he also said if you don't believe me then see for yourself. (something along those lines) 2. When Tobi stood in the light for Kisame to see, Kisame recognized him


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## Deleted member 183504 (Feb 14, 2012)

blacksword said:


> And he doesn't even know the name of the bijuus



Amnesia.


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## Psychic (Feb 14, 2012)

The only thing that we know about Tobi is :

1) He is old.

2) He has a recognizable face.

If Tobi was really a nobody, then he wouldnt need to hide his face, because no one would recognize him anyways. The fact that he chose to hide his face, makes him a well known figure.

Kishimoto made Tobi wrinkles very clear, so I am so tired of hearing Obito and Shishui theories. Even Yamato is not that old. As for Izuna, well...he is too damn old, with no eyes and buried by Madara.

There is probably only one person who knows who Tobi really is and thats Kyuubi! Kyuubi recognized Tobi 16 years ago, before he was put under a genjutsu. All Naruto had to do really was ask Kyuubi who that masked man was 16 years ago.

In fact, Fugaku and Kagami are the only two most plausible candidates.


----------



## T-Bag (Feb 14, 2012)

^only madara knows who tobi really is. kyuubi probably thought it was madara


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Feb 14, 2012)

*My Second Tobi Identity Theory*

Tobi is the real Juubi, yet it's mere spririt in the body of the deceased Obito. Madara made contact with the Juubi's spirit and agreed with the Juubi's plans. Madara and the Juubi took Obito's body and Madara used a jutsu to let the Juubi possess obito's body. Madara met Nagato at some time and gave him his Rinnegan eyes, which resulted in Madara's blindness and powerloss, soon Madara died. After Madara died, the Juubi continued their plans. Than it implanted the Senju DNA, created Zetsu, aswell as merging it's body properties with White Zetsu. Than the Juubi took the identity of Madara and met Danzo at the night of the Uchiha Massacre. Years later he took the alias Tobi. Tobi started the war and after the shinobi world knew Madara was indeed dead, Tobi was upset because his alias was nothing to worry about. Yet he still tries to become complete again, his spirit and body complete again, so that the Juubi can control the world.


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## vikingweasel (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm not sure the Obito theory works with the timeline. I may be mistaken, but if Tobi is the one who attacked Konoha when the fourth sacrificed his life that would make him too young to be fully grown (if he were Obito.) Kakashi wasn't fully grown at that point, i think.


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## Taijukage (Feb 14, 2012)

apart from more obito bullshit, good theory and one i share. it'd connect all dots. tobi is actually the original evil badass and behind everything thats gone wrong in narutoverse. how fucking awesome would that be? and itd come full circle because naruto/sasuke is rikudo and tobi's juubi so once he captures bee and restores his old body, then we are in for everyone vs him. and we havent seen everyone vs one guy since pain.


----------



## Talis (Feb 14, 2012)

falsepod said:


> The eyes and nose line are the same and the hair is quite similar...



Yours is nothing compared to my sign lol.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Feb 14, 2012)

falsepod said:


> The eyes and nose line are the same and the hair is quite similar...



Irrevelant Character


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## Greidy (Feb 14, 2012)

JCRUYFF said:


> Irrevelant Character



Until he gets relevant, that is.


----------



## Almondsand (Feb 14, 2012)

AS I SAID PLENTY OF TIME BEFORE..

TOBI= MADARA..

You guys is going to be trolled, everyone hopping on this irrelevant character named Kagami bandwagon, I'm going to let you guys on a secret. Kagami was the Sakura in the Danzo and Hiruzen squad, thats why he is unimportant.

Obito believers really just high or have brains of 11 year old children, come on he's supposed to be the same age as Kakashi and he have wrinkles on his face, you guys dumb as shit. 

Madara is the only plausible person we know of thus far to be Tobi, as I say he is a clone created to the purpose of completing the Moon eye plan. He's basically Cell from DBZ, Madara with a spice of Senju and Zetsu.

Just remember who told yall first... Also Izuna = Worm Doo Doo


----------



## Greidy (Feb 14, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> AS I SAID PLENTY OF TIME BEFORE..
> 
> TOBI= MADARA..



So sure, yet no proof.


----------



## Xaragon (Feb 14, 2012)

I have a question that i may have missed the answer too, Am i to assume that tobi controlled yagura?

and if so how could it have been the exact same power that shisui eyes had? considering that both his eyes were taken at that stage?


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## First Tsurugi (Feb 14, 2012)

Xaragon said:


> I have a question that i may have missed the answer too, Am i to assume that tobi controlled yagura?
> 
> and if so how could it have been the exact same power that shisui eyes had? considering that both his eyes were taken at that stage?



It was indeed Tobi controlling Yagura, but it probably wasn't Kotoamatsukami that he used to control him. Ao just said the jutsu used to control him were similar, not that they were the same.



Ikorose said:


> So sure, yet no proof.



lol, this.


----------



## Almondsand (Feb 14, 2012)

*Son_Michael is a pussy*



Ikorose said:


> So sure, yet no proof.



Already provided much proof when I first stated it, it just get tiresome of keep making a display of evidence, much faster to write it out.


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## Xaragon (Feb 14, 2012)

If madara took Izuna's eyes, couldnt have Izuna just taken Madara's eyes as well?


----------



## Talis (Feb 15, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> AS I SAID PLENTY OF TIME BEFORE..
> 
> TOBI= MADARA..
> 
> ...



Your just saying that everyone can't be Tobi because they died and yet your saying that hes Madara ur really are retarded lol.
As for the wrinkles, there was a rock on it, i hope your clever enough to know what a huge rock can really do.
You don't believe in the Izuna theory cuz he died? Use your brain even if Tobi is a dumb clone Madara's soul can't be in it you know why? Chapter 559, it's Madaras soul in there, you know the guy which got ET.


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## First Tsurugi (Feb 15, 2012)

Xaragon said:


> If madara took Izuna's eyes, couldnt have Izuna just taken Madara's eyes as well?



Apparently an eye transfer in itself isn't enough.


----------



## Narikamaru (Feb 15, 2012)

I think he's the first son of Rikudo. I have no proof whatsoever, but it would be an interesting twist if he was.


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## Saiko (Feb 15, 2012)

Tobi is an Avatar, Spirit, Ghost or Soul of the Juubi.

His Object is to be complete.. What can be completed ? The Juubi.

Madara is dead and was brought back as an Edo Tensei.

And the best Final Villain would be the most powerful right ? What could make Naruto more heroic than the Rikudou Sennin himself ? To do what he couldnt do . Destroy the Juubi.


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## Escargon (Feb 15, 2012)

Tobi is future Sasuke:/


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## BringerOfCarnage (Feb 15, 2012)

Madara's son...


----------



## Appleofeden (Feb 28, 2012)

I like the Tobi is to Madara as Yamato is to Hashirama theory.


----------



## bearzerger (Feb 28, 2012)

Tobi is the Sandaime Mizukage


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## Mistshadow (Feb 28, 2012)

most logical answer is officially izuna


----------



## Talis (Feb 28, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> Already provided much proof when I first stated it, it just get tiresome of keep making a display of evidence, much faster to write it out.



Why you believe in that.
Kishi already explained nearly the whole act/ he made Tsunade saying that the Naruto's world was being played for suxers, he actually means it to the readers, but he can't obviously say that for his reputation lol or he would surely have said it.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Feb 28, 2012)

He's probably some failed experiment where Orochimaru attempted to implant Madara's cells into a kid, much like he did with Yamato and Hashi's cells.

Other than that, Izuna.


----------



## Talis (Feb 28, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> most logical answer is officially izuna



Why it's obvious?
How did he get back a life, why does he have a fqd up body, why the whole Moons eye plan?
Izuna doesn't seems to be such a character with such goal, his only goal could be to kill the Uchiha's/ Madara if he started to hate him after being eyeless or to res Madara.


----------



## Mistshadow (Feb 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Why it's obvious?
> How did he get back a life, why does he have a fqd up body, why the whole Moons eye plan?
> Izuna doesn't seems to be such a character with such goal, his only goal could be to kill the Uchiha's/ Madara if he started to hate him after being eyeless or to res Madara.



I didn't say obvious.

I said most logical.

But logic isn't always right in a story.

But if you really must know why LOGICALLY its the best answer

read my thread, answer, and debate there or here. idc.


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## Talis (Feb 28, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I didn't say obvious.
> 
> I said most logical.
> 
> ...



Oh, nvm it then, i shoud read more carefully next time.


----------



## BlazingCobaltX (Feb 28, 2012)

Izuna.


----------



## joshhookway (Mar 1, 2012)

Izuna

Tobi collects eyes to replace his. He has his own MS jutsu. Madara knows his plan


----------



## Palpatine (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm still hoping for him to be the Juubi's will.


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## IDGabrielHM (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm thinking Tobi is the Child Of Destiny.  The _REAL_ one.


He was the one born with the Rinnegan, so when he told Konan that he gave it to Nagato he really wasn't bullshitting (rare for him).  The man has been around for ages trying to enact the longest-term plan imaginable, and part of that plan was cutting out his own eyes and secretly implanting them in a Rain Village child (or otherwise "imparting" them).  He's not even Uchiha, literally everything has been a planned out lie.  All of his eyes were stolen until he just recently put his real one back.  At this point his body is even stolen property and he just manufactures new parts as needed.  He uses spacetime interdimensional vanishing because he has determined that to be the best technique and couldn't manage better, so that's his style.  *Minato does the same thing, he's just better at it*  Doing what he does with eyes and his body isn't hard to imagine if you accept him as the second originator of the Rinnegan.

He's the child of destiny, born with the Rinnegan as the reincarnation of The Sage of Six Paths, and has been carrying his destiny out by devoting his life to changing the entire world, saving it from itself indefinitely, and using his inborn and stolen techniques and careful planning to establish a permanent Pax on the population.  No matter how horrible his methods and how much suffering in the interim the ends will justify the means, because destiny marches inevitably towards the End.  After all the world just would have suffered anyway; society will harm itself with or without him.


Naruto, is going to steal Tobi's destiny from him.  He's stealing the position of Destined Child from the real one, and saving the world his own way.  That's how Naruto is going to resolve this whole idealogical inconsistency with his Part 1 identity; he will actually fulfill destiny _by_ defying it, proving once and for all that there is no such thing as predestination and that hard work and unyielding will trumps privileged birth.
Tobi is Fate, and Domination.  Naruto is Hope, and Volition.  That's why Tobi will also be Final Villain, although Naruto may still fight Sasuke _after_ him.


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## Penance (Mar 2, 2012)

I can't wait for the reveal...:ho


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 2, 2012)

Obito is definitely affiliated with Tobi.
Maybe he is partially Obito, but Obito definitely has something to do with the story.


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## jacamo (Mar 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Thats a wet Obito.



Tobi and Obito personalities are worlds apart


----------



## Almondsand (Mar 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Your just saying that everyone can't be Tobi because they died and yet your saying that hes Madara ur really are retarded lol.
> As for the wrinkles, there was a rock on it, i hope your clever enough to know what a huge rock can really do.
> You don't believe in the Izuna theory cuz he died? Use your brain even if Tobi is a dumb clone Madara's soul can't be in it you know why? Chapter 559, it's Madaras soul in there, you know the guy which got ET.
> 
> ...



You a dick blower..

I don't even understand what point you are trying to make, what about the wrinkles? Are you trying to explain that he has wrinkles because of a huge rock? If this is what you are getting at, I must say even when I wrote it out to make it more sensible it is still down right remedial. You need to be clever enough to know if a boulder smash your peanut head you be dead but alas in the world you live in, it causes wrinkles. 

I didn't say anything about Madara's soul being apart of Tobi, so learn to read before you give an analysis. A clone still have a separate soul from the original, and yet it's still the original in it's make-up. So Tobi can be Madara while the Original is dead, I mean even Tobi wanted to be revived from the Rinnegan, saying Nagato betrayed him for not using the life and death technique on him. A technique that brings people back from the dead, of which Madara thought was used upon him when he was brought back via Edo Tensei. 

Everyone wants to dismiss Tobi being in some part Madara, but in my opinion it's still logical.  Madara was able to acquire the Rinnegan, died shortly after but with the Rinnegan he should had been able to do the impossible. We witnessed the Rinnegan using advanced clone techniques when Nagato did it to clone Itachi and Kisame ala not being able to use advanced techniques. In my logical opinion, Madara did an advanced version of this technique, creating his likeness into some vessel that accumulated Shodai cells(I believe Shodai died shortly after), who was accompanied by Zetsu.  I mean basically Tobi is Frankenstein or like I said Cell from Dragonball Z, he is Madara's creation but is also Madara.


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## Animangadyde15 (Mar 2, 2012)

In the manga it says that tobi is madara uchiha.


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## tgm2x (Mar 2, 2012)

Animangadyde15 said:


> In the manga it says that tobi is madara uchiha.



But Madara dasagrees


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## Animangadyde15 (Mar 2, 2012)

tobi wasn't born with the rinnegan. tobi is madara uchiha and when nagato died madara killed konan and took nagato's rinnegan. He wasn't born with it, he stole it, FROM A DEAD MAN. THATS F*CKED UP!!


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## tgm2x (Mar 2, 2012)

Tobi is NOT Madara Uchiha He may be clone, Izuna or w/e


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## Reddan (Mar 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Thats a wet Obito.



I definitely think that is Obito's body and he is most likely in control now, but I think Madara definitely left part of his soul to control Obito. Similar to what Minato and Kushina did. The question is how willing was Obito to allow this plan to happen? I think Obito is in charge now and this is what worries Madara. These lines uttered here definitely something a bitter Obito would say.
Link removed


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 2, 2012)

arednad said:


> I definitely think that is Obito's body and he is most likely in control now, but I think Madara definitely left part of his soul to control Obito. Similar to what Minato and Kushina did. The question is how willing was Obito to allow this plan to happen? I think Obito is in charge now and this is what worries Madara. These lines uttered here definitely something a bitter Obito would say.
> ALL



I agree.

Whoever Tobi is, I don't think he's sticking to whatever plan Madara laid out for him. He is doing what he is doing for his own sake.


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## T-Bag (Mar 2, 2012)

fugaku uchiha


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 2, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> Words



Explain to me what the point of a clone is when that clone:
-looks nothing like the original
-has a different personality from the original
-is physically different from the original
-has entirely different powers than the original

That's not a clone, that's a completely different character.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 3, 2012)

its izuna


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## OOduck (Mar 3, 2012)

Tobi = Rikudou sennin
He's back to reclaim the tailed beasts


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## Dolohov27 (Mar 3, 2012)

Tobi is a personification of the ninja world hatred and misery.


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## aguyuno (Mar 3, 2012)

ViperXRockwave said:


> I'm actually starting to lose interest in his identity. It's been going on way too long.


This. Kishi has a bad habit of drawing shit out forever. I mean really, it took Naruto 500 (counting both parts here)+ episodes to finally control the Kyuubi, and even THEN he can only "control some of it"? What the hell is that?

The biggest point I'm gonna make is just this: people keep dismissing the Izuna theory on the grounds of him being dead (which is weird because I'm pretty sure Obito is supposed to be dead too, but whatever). But uh, was that ever actually declared in the manga? They say that Madara "took the eyes of his younger brother", but for example in the anime it showed him do this _while he was still alive_, and I dunno if he'd bother killing him afterwards. I mean he could very easily have just lived but, you know, completely blind until Madara lost to Nagato (or whoever actually killed him), then he took his eyes back from him or something.

Although as I type that, I realise that makes no sense since Madara gained Rinnegan, right? Was it in both eyes?

Also, maybe Izuna did give his eyes willingly, then just took the sharingan from his dead best friend from earlier and transplanted them into himself. Hell, maybe HE'S the one who killed Madara and that's he woke up the mangekyo Tobi has later on.

I dunno. But, again, I also just wish Kishi would hurry the hell up about it.


----------



## Talis (Mar 3, 2012)

arednad said:


> I definitely think that is Obito's body and he is most likely in control now, but I think Madara definitely left part of his soul to control Obito. Similar to what Minato and Kushina did. The question is how willing was Obito to allow this plan to happen? I think Obito is in charge now and this is what worries Madara. These lines uttered here definitely something a bitter Obito would say.
> It says a good amount of people tried to obtain EMS



Yeah sure, someone made a thrread about Ao feeling another thing of the Kyuubi's power.
I am just almost sure something as this is gonna happen;
1: Rookies running in some trouble, Kakashi and Gai tells Naruto to save them and leave Tobi to them.
2: Itachi Sasuke runs into Madara and we find out that the long haired guy was the real Madara and we see the flashback of everything related to the real Madara.
3: After every secrets of Madara scene switch to Kakashi and Gai and we will see that they got the Kyuubi's chakra after they went in the cloack of the Kyuubi.


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## Escargon (Mar 3, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> its izuna



Didnt Izuna show up after Tobi?


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## aguyuno (Mar 4, 2012)

jsyk all know, tobi = tobirama.

/thread


----------



## jacamo (Mar 4, 2012)

Uchiha Kagami


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## ch1p (Mar 4, 2012)

IDGabrielHM said:


> I'm thinking Tobi is the Child Of Destiny.  The _REAL_ one.
> 
> 
> He was the one born with the Rinnegan, so when he told Konan that he gave it to Nagato he really wasn't bullshitting (rare for him).  The man has been around for ages trying to enact the longest-term plan imaginable, and part of that plan was cutting out his own eyes and secretly implanting them in a Rain Village child (or otherwise "imparting" them).  He's not even Uchiha, literally everything has been a planned out lie.  All of his eyes were stolen until he just recently put his real one back.  At this point his body is even stolen property and he just manufactures new parts as needed.  He uses spacetime interdimensional vanishing because he has determined that to be the best technique and couldn't manage better, so that's his style.  *Minato does the same thing, he's just better at it*  Doing what he does with eyes and his body isn't hard to imagine if you accept him as the second originator of the Rinnegan.
> ...



I love this. The Child of Prophecy has to be trained by Jiraiya though, doesn't he? Maybe one of these ? Would the timelines match though?


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## Crona (Mar 4, 2012)

I think I said this before, but I'll say it again.

He is a former corrupt ROOT member. Another Danzo flashback will show it


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## MYJC (Mar 4, 2012)

Izuna and Kagami = Irrelevant background characters, having Tobi be one of them would be completely anticlimactic. I don't even think Izuna has even been named in the actual manga.

Obito = Makes no sense

Juubi = Asspull

Rikudo Sannin = Nope, we've seen him and he looked different. Plus the tailed beasts would recognzie him

Elder or Younger son = Nope, we've seen them and they look different


Tobi is most likely some clone/lab experiment created sometime after Madara lost against the 1st and went into hiding. Orochimaru may have helped Madara to create Tobi.

Madara (who eventually got old and died) put Tobi in charge of running Akatsuki, carrying out the Moon's Eye Plan, and making sure he was revived eventually once they gathered the Tailed Beasts. Of course, Tobi has his own plans and probably just decided to make himself the Juubi jinchuuriki rather than reviving Madara and putting the Juubi in him.

Tobi probably wears a mask because the other half of his face that we haven't seen yet is different/deformed in some way (kind of like Zetsu), and of course so he could use Madara's identity.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Mar 4, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Izuna and Kagami = Irrelevant background characters, having Tobi be one of them would be completely anticlimactic. I don't even think Izuna has even been named in the actual manga.
> 
> Obito = Makes no sense
> 
> ...



How can you dismiss Izuna and Kagami as being anti-climactic and then find Tobi being a clone/experiment perfectly acceptable?


----------



## Scar (Mar 5, 2012)

We may never know....


----------



## kmccaskill (Mar 5, 2012)

I think Tobi is  Fugaku Uchiha





Makes perfect sense, his wife told Fugaku that Kushina was gonna give birth soon.

His tan skin color matches, tobi perfectly, the only thing that is an issue is Itachi killing him, maybe he knew in advance?

For appearances, when Tobi removed his mask, it was clear that the man is aged and has 2 bags under his eyes. If you look closer, there's also Fugaku's and Itachi's prominent facial creases. Fugaku was 40 at his apparent death. The story has since moved on 10 years, giving an appropriate age for the man under the mask. 

Fugaku needed an alias. His name is not feared and won't gather immediate respect. Thus, he took on "Madara" as both of their ideals are similar. Since their ideals are similar, no one would question if he was really Madara.

Fugaku wanted the Uchiha Clan to control Konoha. He didn't like the way his clan was treated. This was well known throughout the higher ups of Konoha. Thus, when the 9-Tails attacked, Fugaku and the Uchiha were suspected of planning it. Fugaku was also noticeably absent during the attack as mentioned by Itachi.

Where was he you may ask? He was busy attacking Minato as "Tobi/Madara". When he failed to destroy Konoha and the elders, he had to re-think his plan.

What he came up with was the Eye of the Moon Plan. It was then where he decided to gather Hashirama's DNA in order to obtain Izanagi and greater powers. Since these bodily experiments would be rather obvious, he had his reliable servant, Zetsu, make a clone of him before starting. From that day on, it was the Zetsu clone that took his place in Konoha.

After some time, Tobi approached Konoha in order to attack again. However, Itachi intercepted him and made a deal, oblivious of the fact that it was really his father. But why would Fugaku make a deal that would kill off his entire clan?

First off, Itachi had fallen out of favor from his father. Fugaku thought Itachi would be the clan's saving member. However, it became painfully obvious that Itachi wasn't interested in doing what's best for the clan.
Since killing the entire clan would make Itachi a rogue shinobi, this was the perfect opportunity for Itachi to help Fugaku. As a rogue shinobi, he would be hired into Akatsuki, unwillingly helping Fugaku to achieve his master plan.

Also, this would kill his Zetsu clone, significant because if left unharmed, the clone would theoretically not age. This would reveal that it's not really Fugaku.

Another reason is the development of Sasuke. Sasuke had recently gained his father's trust, though not as much as Itachi had. Knowing that anger can drive a person without end, killing off his clan and family would jump-start a potential powerful shinobi.

This worked out perfectly for Fugaku.

Fugaku now has his ideal son working for him in Itachi. If Itachi still doesn't work out, Fugaku has Sasuke in the background, increasingly becoming stronger. He also has fame and reputation as "Madara".

Now for some miscellaneous details:
Naruto and Sasuke will be forever intertwined. The same goes for their family and blood.

During the 9-Tails' attack, it was revealed that Kushina and Mikoto Uchiha (Sasuke's mother) are friends, and good ones at that. Mikoto was also said to be missing during the 9-Tails' attack. She was noticeably compliant with Fugaku's ideals of the Uchiha taking over. Thus, she told Fugaku of Kushina's pregnancy, giving him the perfect time to release the 9-Tails. That's a connection for their mothers.

For their fathers, they fought during the 9-Tails' attack. One was the Child of Prophecy that potentially could bring world peace, while the other wanted to have world domination, in his own sense of "peace".


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## MYJC (Mar 5, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> How can you dismiss Izuna and Kagami as being anti-climactic and then find Tobi being a clone/experiment perfectly acceptable?



I think the reveal could be interesting if done right, and depending on what exactly the mask is hiding. Part of me thinks one side of his face is Madara and one side is Hashirama. He hates Hashirama (and looking at that part of his face) and keeps it covered...just a guess anyway.



kmccaskill said:


> I think Tobi is  Fugaku Uchiha
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Couple problems with that:

1. Madara himself (the real one) knew about the Moon's Eye Plan and was expecting Nagato to revive him. How do you connect that with Fugaku if the Moon's Eye Plan was something Fugaku made up? 

2. How do you explain Tobi's weird body (ie. losing his arm and replacing it with Zetsu stuff twice)?

3. How would Fugaku know so much about Madara?


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## Bender (Mar 5, 2012)

I'm going to probably render my guess of Tobi's identity being what Palpatine said that Tobi is Juubi's will or like GabrielHM said he's the child of destiny, or perhaps Tobi is Rikudo Sennin. My opinion Tobi is Juubi's will possessing Rikudo Sennin's body.


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## cant i guest post (Mar 5, 2012)

Tobi (uchiha clan member) + Senju/Uzumaki clan member = Nagato

Tobi is Nagato's real father.  I'm guessing he's someone we think is dead considering he says he is 'no one'.


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## Rios (Mar 5, 2012)

I dont like the idea of another Uchiha for main villain. Madara, Sasuke, and if that Izuna/Fugaku/Obito stuff turns out to be right - Tobi.......that makes 3 out of 4 villains/destined final battles to be with Uchihas. Too much. I think it'll keep things balanced if Tobi turns out to be a non-Uchiha. Plus I am sure it will trigger an interesting story involving the Uchihas and whats his deal with impersonating Madara and generally giving them a bad rep.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Mar 5, 2012)

Wow, has it been 5 months since that reveal already? Seems more recent. 

Anyway, a part of me is hoping that Tobi is just Tobi. I understand that would be very anti-climatic though after all of the mystery, but I'm enjoying "Tobi." I am curious though as to who he could possibly be... probably Izuna.


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## T-Bag (Mar 5, 2012)

kmccaskill said:


> [sp]I think Tobi is  Fugaku Uchiha
> 
> 
> 
> ...



to add to that:

fugaku was never revived. how is possible kabuto didnt think of reviving the leader of the uchiha (who should be the strongest) to fight in the front lines for the war? i can only think of one thing: tobi = fugaku, the father of uchiha brothers

it's still funny *sasuke* didn't see his face yet. i wonder why


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## Talis (Mar 5, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> to add to that:
> 
> fugaku was never revived. how is possible kabuto didnt think of reviving the leader of the uchiha (who should be the strongest) to fight in the front lines for the war? i can only think of one thing: tobi = fugaku, the father of uchiha brothers
> 
> *it's still funny sasuke didn't see his face yet. i wonder why*



I just want to facepalm at that line lol. 
And anyways if Tobi is Fugaku Sasuke should hurry up to him before Kakashi reveals him as Obito lol. :ho


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## PassionateStoic (Mar 5, 2012)

*Yet another Tobi theory*

I know I'm the billionth person to have a theory about Tobi, but I can't resist thinking about it so...

Edo Madara is currently fused with Hashirama's dna. Edo Madara said that he acquired the Rinnegan shortly before his death. We also know that the Rinnegan can be achieved by upgrading the Sharingan far enough. My guess is that when an EMS comes in contact with Hashirama's dna, it creates the Rinnegan.

So...During the battle between the two, Madara fused with Hashirama's dna. When Madara was near death he created the first Zetsu. This Zetsu then returned to Madara's corpse to retrieve his dna and the combination of Madara dna and Zetsu created Tobi. The Rinnegan that Tobi currently has was created when Madara fought Hashirama. 

Tobi, the pseudo-Madara, is on a mission to regain the power of the original Madara and to finish what he couldn't, the Moon's Eye Plan. Somewhere along the line, Tobi acquired the eye Obito died with. This eye is the one he currently uses, that gives him the ability to become intangible and warp through space. 

Its not perfect, but I'd love to hear criticisms. Let me know if there are any glaring mistakes.


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## son_michael (Mar 5, 2012)

Obito is really the only fun, interesting choice. Kishi could do so much with a brainwashed boy who was twisted or molded into Madara's succesor, Kakashi would get more screentime and it would all just be so awesome.


here's hoping all the hints from kishi are not just in reference to Tobi's dimensional eye powers.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 5, 2012)

Madara implies he knows who Tobi is, and that they were at one point working together.

If Tobi were created after Madara died, he wouldn't know about Tobi nor who he is.

Edit: Threads merged, never mind.


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## tupadre97 (Mar 5, 2012)

Tobi is Izuna. Think about it if his death was a lie or faked it would fit in perfectly with madaras plan and would explain why kabuto  didnt bring him back with Edo Tensei. Seriously y would he not bring back madaras brother who was said to have equal strength.


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## alienworkshopguy (Mar 6, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Tobi is Izuna. Think about it if his death was a lie or faked it would fit in perfectly with madaras plan and would explain why kabuto  didnt bring him back with Edo Tensei. *Seriously y would he not bring back madaras brother who was said to have equal strength.*



As far as we know, Izuna gave Madara his eyes' while he was alive, meaning at Izunas' death he had no sharingan, and according to how edo tensei it brings the person back to life in the state right before they died. Meaning Izuna would NOT had HIS sharingan if he was brought back with edo tensei.

Itachi had HIS sharingan at death which is why he still had his.

Nagato had rinnengan at death which is why he still had his. (Not born with rinnengan so this is further proof that u r revived in the state u were at right b4 u died.)

Tobi = Jyuubi. wait n see. thought it was obvious by now.


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## Enclave (Mar 6, 2012)

alienworkshopguy said:


> and according to how edo tensei it brings the person back to life in the state right before they died



That's how we THOUGHT it worked.  Kabuto proved that wrong by bringing Madara back at a younger age.  Note, Madara only has the Rinnegan and Mokuton thanks to Kabuto implanting that Hashirama DNA into him.


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## jacamo (Mar 6, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Obito is really the only fun, interesting choice. Kishi could do so much with a brainwashed boy who was twisted or molded into Madara's succesor



i agree it would certainly be very interesting

Izuna is still the favourite be it would be like "ok its Izuna, moving on..." 

whereas if Tobi is Obito or Kagami, its just more juicy


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## PassionateStoic (Mar 6, 2012)

Enclave said:


> That's how we THOUGHT it worked.  Kabuto proved that wrong by bringing Madara back at a younger age.  Note, Madara only has the Rinnegan and Mokuton thanks to Kabuto implanting that Hashirama DNA into him.



Wrong, dude check chapter 560. Madara says that he acquired the Rinnegan shortly before his death. Kabuto didn't plant any DNA, he said he and Orochimaru gathered information and suspected that Madara had the Rinnegan, not that he caused him to have it. This implies that he was somehow infused with Hashirama's DNA while fighting him.


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## Almondsand (Mar 6, 2012)

*First Tsurugi blowing cum bubbles... as usual*



First Tsurugi said:


> Explain to me what the point of a clone is when that clone:
> -looks nothing like the original
> -has a different personality from the original
> -is physically different from the original
> ...



Tobi can be a completely different character and it doesn't mean that he is not a clone of Madara. In the Young Justice comic there is a character who is a clone of Superman named Superboy. Now Superboy is an entirely different character with his own experiences and personality but that doesn't change the fact that he is a clone of Superman. Also Superboy can not fly and don't have the same weakness as the original but guess what he is still a clone. So you didn't disprove what I've been saying about Tobi being a clone of Madara. You are also absolutely wrong with saying Tobi looks nothing like Madara, I guess you need a magnifying glass to not see the prominent bags they both share underneath the eyes. There is much more logic with Tobi being a clone of Madara, who is an amalgamation of Senju and Zetsu cells, then any of these sage, obito, izuna, and kagami theories. Tobi being a clone still give him the benefit of being a different character and making logical sense.


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## PassionateStoic (Mar 6, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> Tobi can be a completely different character and it doesn't mean that he is not a clone of Madara. In the Young Justice comic there is a character who is a clone of Superman named Superboy. Now Superboy is an entirely different character with his own experiences and personality but that doesn't change the fact that he is a clone of Superman. Also Superboy can not fly and don't have the same weakness as the original but guess what he is still a clone. So you didn't disprove what I've been saying about Tobi being a clone of Madara. You are also absolutely wrong with saying Tobi looks nothing like Madara, I guess you need a magnifying glass to not see the prominent bags they both share underneath the eyes. There is much more logic with Tobi being a clone of Madara, who is an amalgamation of Senju and Zetsu cells, then any of these sage, obito, izuna, and kagami theories. Tobi being a clone still give him the benefit of being a different character and making logical sense.




My theory also involves Tobi being a somewhat of a clone of Madara. A really important thing to point out is that if Tobi is any of those other Uchiha where did they get the Rinnegan? The only way of having a Rinnegan is to either be the Sage of the Six paths or to upgrade the sharingan far enough. This means that the only Rinnegan that can possibly exist is the one created by Madara as he is the only one who has had an EMS. This Rinnegan was created by the battle between Madara and Hashirama, Madara was somehow infused with his DNA during the fight. Madara helps support this by saying he received the Rinnegan shortly before his death. So my guess was that Tobi branched off Madara, being a combination of Mokuton and Madara DNA. Tobi then retrieved the Rinnegan from Madara's body. Its kind of a stretch but there aren't any glaring wholes like most other theories.


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## tupadre97 (Mar 6, 2012)

alienworkshopguy said:


> As far as we know, Izuna gave Madara his eyes' while he was alive, meaning at Izunas' death he had no sharingan, and according to how edo tensei it brings the person back to life in the state right before they died. Meaning Izuna would NOT had HIS sharingan if he was brought back with edo tensei.
> 
> Itachi had HIS sharingan at death which is why he still had his.
> 
> ...



Well he is the only one I could see being Tobi because if his death was a lie he fits into Tobi's role in the story perfectly IMO.


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## Boom Burger (Mar 6, 2012)

Tobi is either a Madara/zetsu clone or Izuna. Unlikely that he is Obito, unless Kishi wants to drag Kakashi into the picture as well.

*ZETSU CLONE*

- Tobi's body is some weird white zetsu shit. Observed when he tore his own hand off when battling Fuu and when Minato destroyed his arm.

- When he 'regenerated' his hand, he was standing in front of a large zetsu-like plant thing.

- His always active sharingan. A non-uchiha can not disactivate their sharingan. Though it is not proven that Tobi cant switch it off, he always seems to have it activated.

- When Bee asked Kisame how he survived the double lariat, Kisame smirked and explained that he was a clone. Not just any clone, but a zetsu clone which is very like the user and does not disappear when killed (and IMO has the thought processes and the memories of the person it cloned). This could be what Tobi is to Madara.

- Tobi talking down his identity and telling Naruto and co. that his identity doesnt matter. Him saying that he is nobody. Which makes me think he is infact nobody, just a clone. 

- Tobi's closeness to Zetsu himself.

*OR he could be Izuna........*

- Tobi has a somewhat 'younger brother' syndrome. He would do anything for the sake of Madara, like a little bro should.

- Tobi clenched his arm when telling Sasuke that Izuna willingly gave Madara his eyes, and Sasuke took notice. Make your own assumptions.

These are my theories. Dissect them as you please. And I'm aware that I've probably spelt Zetsu wrong too.


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## B.o.t.i (Mar 6, 2012)

wow people really care probably his brother.


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## Chappz316 (Mar 6, 2012)

I believe strongly in tobi being izuna, but i also believe tobi could now be the first zetsu, created during the battle at VotE. 

Hashirama's wood may have reacted to Mito's KCM chakra and been corrupted by Madara'a blood. Or just the wood and the blood without KCM chakra, but it adds up as why the reaction happened.


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## son_michael (Mar 6, 2012)

Chappz316 said:


> I believe strongly in tobi being izuna, but i also believe tobi could now be the first zetsu, created during the battle at VotE.
> 
> Hashirama's wood may have reacted to Mito's KCM chakra and been corrupted by Madara'a blood. Or just the wood and the blood without KCM chakra, but it adds up as why the reaction happened.



take a step back and look at this from a reader/critic perspective....now just how boring would the story be if the big hyped reveal...was a zetsu?

zetsu is definitely not a choice, the body is made or modified with zetsu goo but that's about it


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## takL (Mar 6, 2012)

i dont think so but i like this crazy theory ie the long haired mask is mikoto  and the short haired is fugaku.


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## son_michael (Mar 6, 2012)

takL said:


> i dont think so but i like this crazy theory ie the long haired mask is mikoto  and the short haired is fugaku.



So Fugaku and Mikoto intentionally made it so that the Kyuubi would wreck konoha, thus shaking the senju trust and making the uchiha more restricted...they did that so they could have a legitament complaint about the senju and then start a war and then they faked their deaths in the massacre and continue to work in the shadows as their son is being mangled and twisted into something lower than a human being?


brilliant theory!


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## Kevlar88 (Mar 6, 2012)

I've been wondering something recently.

Remember when Itachi set Sasukes eyes to unleash Amaterasu on Tobi once his face was revealed...? How did Itachi know what Tobi's face looked like? I don't think we've seen a moment in the manga where Tobi has tried to reveal his face to anyone except Sasuke. I know that they attacked the Uchiha clan together, but I don't know for sure if Tobi ever did show his face to Itachi.

If this is the case, then to set the eyes to attack Tobi upon seeing his face, Itachi would have had to seen an image of Tobis face from somewhere. Could this give some indication that Tobi is a Madara clone, as his face is clearly identifiable to many ninjas?


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## Chappz316 (Mar 6, 2012)

son_michael said:


> take a step back and look at this from a reader/critic perspective....now just how boring would the story be if the big hyped reveal...was a zetsu?
> 
> zetsu is definitely not a choice, the body is made or modified with zetsu goo but that's about it



I dunno, it quite like it, created by accident during the battle between their forefathers, now Naruto and Sasuke have to face up to the curse of hatred which last peaked between Hashirama and Madara. It makes Tobi the embodiment of the conflict between Uchiha and Senju.


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## Escargon (Mar 6, 2012)

Can anyone give a link where Kishi said that Tobi is someone we all know from the past? That would help alot.


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## Talis (Mar 6, 2012)

The only problem with the most theory is that non of the candidates had a messed up body besides Shisui and Obito, and i doubt Kishi would do such important detail off paneled.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 6, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> Tobi can be a completely different character and it doesn't mean that he is not a clone of Madara. In the Young Justice comic there is a character who is a clone of Superman named Superboy. Now Superboy is an entirely different character with his own experiences and personality but that doesn't change the fact that he is a clone of Superman. Also Superboy can not fly and don't have the same weakness as the original but guess what he is still a clone. So you didn't disprove what I've been saying about Tobi being a clone of Madara.



Superboy and Superman are still similar even if they are not identical, they have similar powers and similar appearances.

Tobi's powers are _completely_ different from Madara's, the only characteristic they share is Sharingan and their ability to control the Kyuubi.



> You are also absolutely wrong with saying Tobi looks nothing like Madara, I guess you need a magnifying glass to not see the prominent bags they both share underneath the eyes.



Madara doesn't have bags like Tobi does. With that logic you might as well say he's a clone of Itachi, since he also has bags under his eyes.

The fact that the mask is still on should make it clear that Tobi looks totally different from Madara.



> There is much more logic with Tobi being a clone of Madara, who is an amalgamation of Senju and Zetsu cells, then any of these sage, obito, izuna, and kagami theories. Tobi being a clone still give him the benefit of being a different character and making logical sense.



Just because none of the other options make sense to you doesn't mean they're illogical.



Kevlar88 said:


> I've been wondering something recently.
> 
> Remember when Itachi set Sasukes eyes to unleash Amaterasu on Tobi once his face was revealed...? How did Itachi know what Tobi's face looked like? I don't think we've seen a moment in the manga where Tobi has tried to reveal his face to anyone except Sasuke. I know that they attacked the Uchiha clan together, but I don't know for sure if Tobi ever did show his face to Itachi.
> 
> If this is the case, then to set the eyes to attack Tobi upon seeing his face, Itachi would have had to seen an image of Tobis face from somewhere. Could this give some indication that Tobi is a Madara clone, as his face is clearly identifiable to many ninjas?



IIRC he planted it to go off based on Tobi's Sharingan, not his face.

Itachi probably never saw Tobi's face since he still seems to believe he is Madara.


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## Talis (Mar 6, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> You are also absolutely wrong with saying Tobi looks nothing like Madara, I guess you need a magnifying glass to not see the prominent bags they both share underneath the eyes. There is much more logic with Tobi being a clone of Madara, who is an amalgamation of Senju and Zetsu cells, then any of these sage, obito, izuna, and kagami theories. Tobi being a clone still give him the benefit of being a different character and making logical sense.



Lol wow, you just suddenly remove the other 5 bags and count that 1 as Madara's bag, remove 6 of them and look what you get just as my sign.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2012)

WTF loool,  ppl now are saying tobi's right face doesn't look like madara's, when that's how majority of the fans got convinced he was madara???

no one ever denied the similar appeareance, but now that it's revealed he's not madara, people say his face doesn't look similar . this is the exact reason why kishi only shows one side of the face, because its  like madaras


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## Chibason (Mar 6, 2012)

I haven't been back to this thread in a while....

...it's still entertaining


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 6, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> WTF loool,  ppl now are saying tobi's right face doesn't look like madara's, when that's how majority of the fans got convinced he was madara???
> 
> no one ever denied the similar appeareance, but now that it's revealed he's not madara, people say his face doesn't look similar . this is the exact reason why kishi only shows one side of the face, because its  like madaras



You have that backwards, the reason we haven't seen Tobi's face is because it's different from Madara's.

People only started saying Tobi's face looked like Madara's because they were seeing what they wanted to see.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You have that backwards, the reason we haven't seen Tobi's face is because it's different from Madara's.
> 
> People only started saying Tobi's face looked like Madara's because they were seeing what they wanted to see.



the reason why you haven't seen his *entire* face* if his face looked symmetrical, we would have known how he looked basically with photoshop lol

2. lol no


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 6, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> the reason why you haven't seen his *entire* face* if his face looked symmetrical, we would have known how he looked basically with photoshop lol
> 
> 2. lol no



Well whatever, I'll just wait until the manga proves me correct like last time.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2012)

think about this for a minute:

why show 1 side of the face, and not the other?


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 6, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> think about this for a minute:
> 
> why show 1 side of the face, and not the other?



Because that would spoil the surprise.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Because that would spoil the surprise.



kishi doesn't hesitate to show one side of the face (or partly) because it's identical to madara's. he revealed his part of the face to sasuke to convince him he was "madara" and that's why amatarasu triggered. it was set to trigger upon seeing "_madara's_" face. sasuke knew what madara looked like and when he saw tobi's right side, it just exploded.

he refuses to show the other side, because _that's_ the surprise.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 6, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> kishi doesn't hesitate to show one side of the face (or partly) because it's identical to madara's.



No, he showed a part of his face because you can't figure out who he based on the small portion that we've seen.



> he revealed his part of the face to sasuke to convince him he was "madara" and that's why amatarasu triggered.



No, he revealed his face *before* he told Sasuke he was Uchiha Madara. The only thing he claimed to be at that point was an Uchiha.

It's possible that Tobi intended to reveal to Sasuke his true identity, rather than making him think he was Madara. Obviously the Amaterasu trap made him change his mind.



> it was set to trigger upon seeing "_madara's_" face. sasuke knew what madara looked like and when he saw tobi's right side, it just exploded.



Incorrect, it was set to trigger upon seeing his Sharingan, not his face.



> he refuses to show the other side, because _that's_ the surprise.



It's more that the surprise is his _entire_ face.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> No, he showed a part of his face because you can't figure out who he based on the small portion that we've seen.
> 
> No, he revealed his face before he claimed to be Uchiha Madara.
> 
> It's possible that Tobi intended to reveal to Sasuke his true identity, rather than making him think he was Madara. Obviously the Amaterasu trap made him change his mind.



*that part of the face looks like madara's which is why amatarasu triggered. sharingan can be seen even with the mask on, but when tobi revealed his entire eye structure, sasuke recognizing that face from itachi's genjutsu activated amatarasu.*

tobi has tricked plenty other's into thinking he's madara. pain, konan, itachi, kisame etc. there's no reason to think he didn't want to trick sasuke into it too.





> It's more that the surprise is his _entire_ face.


you right, but the already revealed part can't be denied. if it didn't look like madara's people would have pointed it out long time ago


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## son_michael (Mar 6, 2012)

it doesn't look like Madara at all lol. Look at edo Madara and then look at half that face, they look nothing alike.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 6, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> *that part of the face looks like madara's which is why amatarasu triggered. sharingan can be seen even with the mask on, but when tobi revealed his entire eye structure, sasuke recognizing that face from itachi's genjutsu activated amatarasu.*



Tobi states here that it was activated upon seeing his Sharingan, not his face.



Manga canon.



> tobi has tricked plenty other's into thinking he's madara. pain, konan, itachi, kisame etc. there's no reason to think he didn't want to trick sasuke into it too.



Except he never showed his face to any of those people.

They believed he was Madara because of his power and knowledge, not because he looked like Madara.

Kisame is the only exception, and he was the only one who actually knew he wasn't Madara.



> you right, but the already revealed part can't be denied. if it didn't look like madara's people would have pointed it out long time ago



Plenty of people pointed it out, like me.


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## Ibb (Mar 6, 2012)

Boom Burger said:


> *ZETSU CLONE*
> 
> - Tobi's body is some weird white zetsu shit. Observed when he tore his own hand off when battling Fuu and when Minato destroyed his arm.
> 
> ...



^This is close to what I think on the matter.

So much evidence points to Tobi being a clone/golem that Zetsu created out of Senju/Uchiha parts. I'll grant that the "Izuna" theory has some merit, but ultimatly it would be a waste if Tobi turns out to be nothing more then the sad sad younger brother of Madara. Tobi being Zetsu's puppet would be such a great plot twist; I've been hoping would happen for years. [/tobihater]


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## alienworkshopguy (Mar 6, 2012)

Ibb said:


> ^This is close to what I think on the matter.
> 
> So much evidence points to Tobi being a clone/golem that Zetsu created out of Senju/Uchiha parts. I'll grant that the "Izuna" theory has some merit, but ultimatly it would be a waste if Tobi turns out to be nothing more then the sad sad younger brother of Madara. Tobi being Zetsu's puppet would be such a great plot twist; I've been hoping would happen for years. [/tobihater]



I do not deny that his body could be part zetsu clone/zetsu goo but he has to have more to him than that, like a soul from someone else or be half something else. Otherwise having a zetsu with tobi to recieve messages from other zetsu's or using zetsu to talk to other zetsu's instead of just doing it himself would be just a waste of time. (tobi never "roots" his foot into the ground to talk to other zetsu's like zetsu himself does.)

Tobi = soul/will of jyuubi in a container (obito body? zetsu/izuna body?)


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## Hadrius (Mar 6, 2012)

Okay, I know there's allot of good theories out there about who Tobi really is and the best one is that he's Uchiha Shisui, but I have another theory and please bare with me and correct me if I leave out any details that would otherwise discredit my theory. The one person who I don't think anyone would actually expect is Hashirama Senju himself. Here's my reasons I believe it's him: first of all, consider this... it may be a possibility that Impure World Resurrection of Hashirama as well as the subsequent sealing of his soul by the 3rd Hokage could have been a clone created using his cells and memory impressions. There is no evidence that the man actually ever died and the only thing said of it, is that he later died in a war after his battle with Madara (which I believe was a rouse and something that makes for a helluva plot). Tobi has a great knowledge of the Uzamaki clan (which are renowned for their longevity, as Tobi seems to have) which is also a cousin related clan to the Senju. Tobi obviously has a regenerative ability and I don't think it's implanted. He also doesn't appear to be a natural user of the Sharingan and much less the Rinnegan. I know Tobi hasn't displayed any of Hashirama's abilities, but that could be simply because he wants to keep his identity a secret (which makes sense, who else should feel the need to hide their true identity?).There doesn't appear to be any reason Hashirama would resort to this new ideology, other than maybe in his older years he may have thought only true peace could come about by uniting the entire Ninja world by using the Moon's Eye plan; he was the first along with Madara to unite a great part of the Ninja world into Konoha... Thoughts and opinions? I'll elaborate upon this one as well as suggest another theory I have after some feedback. Okay, I'll elaborate a little further and this cannot be denied: remember how Tobi said he gave the Rinnegan to Pain? Where would Tobi have gotten the Rinnegan himself, because I'm sure Tobi isn't the one who evolved the Rinnegan himself. Now, Madara recently said that he evolved his Sharingan to a Rinnegan right before he died and Hashirama was the man who supposedly killed him. I think that Hashirama took his eyes and hid the body, and as Tobi, that would be why he acted so surprised that Kabuto found the corpse. How could Tobi, who is so informed, not have known where the body was anyway? For the record, just because your eyes are taken, that doesn't mean that Impure World Resurrection cannot restore your original powers. Sasuke took Itachi's eyes, and now Sasuke and Itachi have the "same eyes". So, it's perfectly reasonable the Madara can have his Rinnegan in his resurrected state while Tobi also has them.


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## Descent of the Lion (Mar 6, 2012)

I think the best bet is Obito. 

When he was severely injured, Madara came to him and used his research to save him. In return, he was supposed to help Madara enact his Moon-Eye plan. He was supposed to become "Tobi" and act as Madara in his absence. What ended up happening is Obito's not following the plan.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 6, 2012)

Descent of the Lion said:


> I think the best bet is Obito.
> 
> When he was severely injured, *Zetsu* came to him and used his *goo* to save him. In return, he was supposed to help Madara enact his Moon-Eye plan. He was supposed to become "Tobi" and act as Madara in his absence. What ended up happening is Obito's not following the plan.



Fyp.


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## Descent of the Lion (Mar 6, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Fyp.



eeeeww goo.


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## kanishk (Mar 7, 2012)

Hadrius said:


> Okay, I know there's allot of good theories out there about who Tobi really is and the best one is that he's Uchiha Shisui, but I have another theory and please bare with me and correct me if I leave out any details that would otherwise discredit my theory. The one person who I don't think anyone would actually expect is Hashirama Senju himself. Here's my reasons I believe it's him: first of all, consider this...* it may be a possibility that Impure World Resurrection of Hashirama as well as the subsequent sealing of his soul by the 3rd Hokage could have been a clone created using his cells and memory impressions.* There is no evidence that the man actually ever died and the only thing said of it, is that he later died in a war after his battle with Madara (which I believe was a rouse and something that makes for a helluva plot). Tobi has a great knowledge of the Uzamaki clan (which are renowned for their longevity, as Tobi seems to have) which is also a cousin related clan to the Senju. Tobi obviously has a regenerative ability and I don't think it's implanted. He also doesn't appear to be a natural user of the Sharingan and much less the Rinnegan. I know Tobi hasn't displayed any of Hashirama's abilities, but that could be simply because he wants to keep his identity a secret (which makes sense, who else should feel the need to hide their true identity?).*There doesn't appear to be any reason Hashirama would resort to this new ideology, other than maybe in his older years he may have thought only true peace could come about by uniting the entire Ninja world by using the Moon's Eye plan*; he was the first along with Madara to unite a great part of the Ninja world into Konoha... Thoughts and opinions? I'll elaborate upon this one as well as suggest another theory I have after some feedback. Okay, I'll elaborate a little further and this cannot be denied: remember how Tobi said he gave the Rinnegan to Pain? Where would Tobi have gotten the Rinnegan himself, because I'm sure Tobi isn't the one who evolved the Rinnegan himself. Now, Madara recently said that he evolved his Sharingan to a Rinnegan right before he died and* Hashirama was the man who supposedly killed him*. I think that Hashirama took his eyes and hid the body, and as Tobi, that would be why he acted so surprised that Kabuto found the corpse. How could Tobi, who is so informed, not have known where the body was anyway? For the record, just because your eyes are taken, that doesn't mean that Impure World Resurrection cannot restore your original powers. Sasuke took Itachi's eyes, and now Sasuke and Itachi have the "same eyes". So, it's perfectly reasonable the Madara can have his Rinnegan in his resurrected state while Tobi also has them.



1) First bold regarding Hashirama's Edo clone seems too hypothetical and far fetched.

2) What would bring a sudden change in his ideologies. If he wanted to execute the Moon Eye, he wouldn't have distributed the Bijuus in the first place.


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## Talis (Mar 7, 2012)

It can't be anyone besides Shisui and Obito at the moment, only these 2 are the only recognize able character, Naruto leaves soon to save the Rookies and leaves Tobi to Gai and Kakashi which has the Kyuubi's chakra.


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## Milkomeda (Mar 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It can't be anyone besides Shisui and Obito at the moment, only these 2 are the only recognize able character, Naruto leaves soon to save the Rookies and leaves Tobi to Gai and Kakashi which has the Kyuubi's chakra.



I feel the same way about Teuchi and Kagami, Tobi can't be anyone other than those 2.


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## Easley (Mar 7, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It can't be anyone besides Shisui and Obito at the moment, only these 2 are the only recognize able character, Naruto leaves soon to save the Rookies and leaves Tobi to Gai and Kakashi which has the Kyuubi's chakra.


Tobi can be anyone that Kishi wants, I doubt he's even decided yet. A mask is very convenient.

From a writing perspective, Tobi should be recognized by more than just Kakashi. The current battle is almost a personal duel - Naruto vs Tobi. If Naruto does succeed in breaking the mask, it's gonna be very weak if he shrugs his shoulders and says, "err, I still don't know you" and leaves it to other people to identify him. Then its more like Kakashi vs Tobi, taking the deserved glory away from Naruto. I want to see shock on _his_ face the second that mask comes off. So we have a problem. Who would Naruto recognize without being a totally unexpected person. 

At the least I think Tobi will not be an Uchiha. He's a proven liar who collects eyes. If he can implant one for Izanagi then he can do the same in the other socket.


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## Hadrius (Mar 7, 2012)

kanishk said:


> 1) First bold regarding Hashirama's Edo clone seems too hypothetical and far fetched.
> 
> 2) What would bring a sudden change in his ideologies. If he wanted to execute the Moon Eye, he wouldn't have distributed the Bijuus in the first place.



I already considered that distributing the Bijuu makes no sense, but perhaps there was a reason he did it. Could be that he couldn't maintain direct control over them like Madara can. Perhaps he distributed them, then sought Madara's eyes himself, then set about to recollect them. Rather than Madara trying to gain Hashirama's powers, perhaps in a twist, Hashirama may have in fact desired Madara's eyes. It also makes me wonder why if Tobi is an Uchiha, why would he give Pain, an Uzamaki, the Rinnegan?


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 7, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi can be anyone that Kishi wants, I doubt he's even decided yet. A mask is very convenient.
> 
> From a writing perspective, Tobi should be recognized by more than just Kakashi. The current battle is almost a personal duel - Naruto vs Tobi. If Naruto does succeed in breaking the mask, it's gonna be very weak if he shrugs his shoulders and says, "err, I still don't know you" and leaves it to other people to identify him. Then its more like Kakashi vs Tobi, taking the deserved glory away from Naruto. I want to see shock on _his_ face the second that mask comes off. So we have a problem. Who would Naruto recognize without being a totally unexpected person.
> 
> At the least I think Tobi will not be an Uchiha. He's a proven liar who collects eyes. If he can implant one for Izanagi then he can do the same in the other socket.



There is no one who Tobi can be that Naruto would recognize, and their fight can hardly be called personal when Naruto doesn't even know who Tobi really is.

Tobi's unmasking will likely be the start of Naruto learning more about him. He doesn't need to know who he is straight off for that to happen.


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## aretes (Mar 7, 2012)

tobi is zestu nuff said


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## Easley (Mar 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> There is no one who Tobi can be that Naruto would recognize, and their fight can hardly be called personal when Naruto doesn't even know who Tobi really is.


It became personal when Naruto said he'd tear the mask right off his face, and Tobi replied that he'd have to earn it: "if you want to see what's under my mask". There's a major secret hiding under there... something that will probably shock Naruto. 

That is why he could be someone really unexpected. A well-known character that no one would ever suspect. When edo Madara was revealed Tobi became a genuine unknown. He isn't limited to a few Uchiha candidates. 



> Tobi's unmasking will likely be the start of Naruto learning more about him. He doesn't need to know who he is straight off for that to happen.


Sure, but I expect some kind of reaction to what he sees, not simply a "sorry, but who the hell are you?"... and waiting for Kakashi to fill in the blanks. Tobi is hiding more than an identity - something that will stun the characters... whether it surprises the readers is another thing.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 7, 2012)

Easley said:


> It became personal when Naruto said he'd tear the mask right off his face, and Tobi replied that he'd have to earn it: "if you want to see what's under my mask". There's a major secret hiding under there... something that will probably shock Naruto.
> 
> That is why he could be someone really unexpected. A well-known character that no one would ever suspect. When edo Madara was revealed Tobi became a genuine unknown. He isn't limited to a few Uchiha candidates.



And which characters would fit that bill? I certainly can't think of anyone.



> Sure, but I expect some kind of reaction to what he sees, not simply a "sorry, but who the hell are you?"... and waiting for Kakashi to fill in the blanks. Tobi is hiding more than an identity - something that will stun the characters... whether it surprises the readers is another thing.



On the contrary, I think the surprise is targeted more at the readers than Naruto.


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## Easley (Mar 7, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> And which characters would fit that bill? I certainly can't think of anyone.


Neither can I, and that should make it a good surprise. Certainly better than the characters we've debated about for years.



> On the contrary, I think the surprise is targeted more at the readers than Naruto.


Can't it be both? Something that shocks the readers and Naruto?


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## Almondsand (Mar 7, 2012)

*lol...*



First Tsurugi said:


> Superboy and Superman are still similar even if they are not identical, they have similar powers and similar appearances.


Yes, I said that but I'm guessing you are using this to emphasis my point because there is no other reason for you to address something I already brought to light. Madara and Tobi share similar characteristics to the face, at least to the portion of the face revealed to us the reader. Stevie Wonder wearing sunglasses at night can even see that Madara and Tobi share the same facial characteristics.



> Tobi's powers are _completely_ different from Madara's, the only characteristic they share is Sharingan and their ability to control the Kyuubi.



Tobi powers are not completely different from Madara being that both of their powers derive from the same Kekkai Genkai (Sharigan/Rinnegan). Both of their power comes from the same source, they use different techniques but that doesn't equate to them having a _completely_ different power. Minato witnessing Tobi being able to bend the Kyubbi will as well as showcasing other techniques concluded that he can only be Uchiha Madara, so that brings more relevance to him being a clone.




> Madara doesn't have bags like Tobi does. With that logic you might as well say he's a clone of Itachi, since he also has bags under his eyes.
> 
> The fact that the mask is still on should make it clear that Tobi looks totally different from Madara.



You know after witnessing posts from you since I joined four months ago, I believe you talk out your ass and shit from the mouth. You have no logic, you're just bringing nothing to the table but randomness. You made no point bringing up the fact Itachi have bags(which I see as facial lines) on his face, not under his eyes.  Madara and Tobi both share the same attributes to their eyes, Itachi looks completely different.



> Just because none of the other options make sense to you doesn't mean they're illogical.


I read all the theories that have been posted on this site, before I even posted my opinion on the matter. I never said they didn't make sense, I said that they weren't logical. When I mentioned that they weren't logical it's because it's true. The holes in there being a revelation of any of the characters mentioned especially the popular Tobi = Obito theory will be too cataclysmic to even save the story of the manga. I mean it will probably be fun but it will be one of the worst writing pieces in all of history of story telling, lets leave it to fan fictions. People may not like the Tobi = Madara with Zetsu/Senju cells theory but it makes perfect sense. We see from the age telling wrinkles on his face that he is definitely an older fellow, well above the age of Kakashi, whom Obito shared the same peer group with. That fact alone just shitted all over the Tobito theory but I mean keep sucking on that pipe. Just remember to rep me when I'm proven right and you ultimately wrong. I'm not going to do some hoe fuck boy shit like you did, negging me just proved you a victim.



loool3 said:


> Lol wow, you just suddenly remove the other 5 bags and count that 1 as Madara's bag, remove 6 of them and look what you get just as my sign.


What are you talking about? Once again I have to decipher everything you wrote even though it's two sentences. I don't get easily rattled by jibber jabber but I'll retort. You seem to telling me to remove six bags to get your sign? Sorry but I don't care to know your sign, but what I'm trying to get an understanding of is, exactly what is your argument? Every time you reply to a post of mine, theres no basis or direction. There is only one bag underneath Madara's eyes and Tobi's right eye. I will post pictures to give you some insight.

*Spoiler*: __ 






Look at their eyes, now answer after surveying the pictures who else besides Madara share the same facial features akin to Tobi?



Lets Look at Obito:

*Spoiler*: __ 





Nothing at all, plus why will Obito have wrinkles on his face whens he's Kakashi's age and please don't say because he was crushed by a boulder..




Kagami:


Izuna aka Worm Doo Doo:

*Spoiler*: __ 





This bul looks just like Sasuke or lets just say Sasuke looks just like dude.




Tell me who other than Madara share the same facial features as Tobi.



T-Bag said:


> WTF loool,  ppl now are saying tobi's right face doesn't look like madara's, when that's how majority of the fans got convinced he was madara???
> 
> no one ever denied the similar appeareance, but now that it's revealed he's not madara, people say his face doesn't look similar . this is the exact reason why kishi only shows one side of the face, because its  like madaras



Exactly, I mean they aren't even looking at the fact that he doesn't necessarily have to be Madara to be a clone. It seems like that's what inhibiting people to accept the most logic argument. Although I respect the fact people have their own perspectives I just wish people make sense and not argue just to open their mouths (type their post on keyboard). I mean basically Tobi is No One as he says, in his mind how can he truly call himself Madara when he's nothing but a shell of the original. His power is incomparable, the only thing he shares is the final goal. He wanted to attain his true power, which he mentions as Madara's power. Nagato was suppose to use the Rinne tensei technique on him as he mention it as a betrayal because he chose not to and instead revived the Konoha residents. Madara when Edo Tensei'd believe he was Rinne Tensei'd which brings more relevance to the fact Tobi/Madara is one in the same but also seperate. Tobi is the will of Madara, supported by Uchiha,Senju and Zetsu cells to plot for the return of his true self (Madara) and the completion of the Moon Eye Plan.


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## jacamo (Mar 7, 2012)

my dearest Kagami, 

allow me to apologise for these chumps


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## Ryan Ensign (Mar 7, 2012)

Hey everyone, this is my very first post on these forums and I'm ready to get to work here hehe. This is my favorite topic in Naruto, since it's so controversial. I'll give you guys my thoughts. I will disprove all theories on who Tobi is.

First of all, I'll make a list of characters whom are believed to be Tobi.

Obito Uchiha
Shisui Uchiha
Kagami Uchiha
Fugaku Uchiha (Itachi's and Sasuke's father)
Izuna Uchiha
Madara Uchiha
Elder son of the So6P
So6P

Now I will disprove all of them haha.

Obito: His entire body was crushed by rocks when the cave collapsed after he gave Kakashi his left sharingan, not just the right side of his body was crushed as many believe. He was too young and too short to be Tobi 16 years ago, when Tobi fought Minato Namikaze, the Fourth Hokage.

Shisui: His body was found by the Uchiha's police force, his right eye was taken by Danzo and he willingly gave his left eye to Itachi right before he died. He couldn't have cast a genjutsu on the police force before his death, because he wasn't planning on dying until after Danzo took his eye.

Kagami: The ONLY thing known about his man is that he was on Danzo's team. He must have been old during the Uchiha Massacre, which allowed Itachi and Tobi to be able to kill him, so it is likely he died during that time.

Fugaku: Was killed by Itachi, there is no reason to believe he staged his own death.

Izuna: Tobi told Sasuke that Izuna died in battle, after giving his eyes to Madara. He got emotional when he was telling it, since he clenched his arm.

Madara: Dead, was resurrected with Edo Tensei, obviously not Tobi.

Elder son of the So6P: Lived so long ago that he must be dead, since even the So6P wasn't immortal.

So6P: Died and left his power to his offspring.

Now, who is Tobi? I believe he is either an as of yet unkown Uchiha, or not an Uchiha at all. He hasn't shown that he possesses the Mangekyo Sharingan or the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. He's unable to deactivate his Sharingan, which must mean it was implanted into his eye socket. So he is either an Uchiha who lost his eyes or not an Uchiha. This suggests that he could be either Shisui or Izuna, but I have already disproven those theories.

I hope you enjoyed reading this, since it was my first post!


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## kyuuball (Mar 7, 2012)

*None of the Above*

Here's my thought on what's going on here:

Tobi's not any character we've seen before, not explicitly.  I think he's a byproduct of the last fight between Madara and Hashirama.  Some sort of massive chakra stain that got left over.  

Think about it.  Madara has indicated that Hashirama died, and he obviously died himself, too, because he's been zombified.  It would explain why he has the eyes (could have taken Madara's) and why he has the ability to use Izanagi (he's part Hashirama).  He can control the beasts.  It also explains why he doesn't really care who he is or what people call him.  He's nobody.  He's not a real person.

It'd also go a long way toward explaining Zetsu.  We know Zetsu is some sort of Hashirama goo, and we've seen Tobi cut off arms and drip similar spooge from his wounds.  Zetsu is Tobi.  Tobi is Madara. Tobi IS Hashirama. Finkle is Einhorn!

Plus, this would make Tobi the strongest one in the series.  He's as close as you can get to a Sage of the Six Paths.  He's got all the component parts.  Plus it would make his motivations seem a little more believable.  To somebody with a billion bodies and one central brain, what's the difference between himself and a world of Moon-Eyed parts?  Plus he was born into this world and has just been watching it for years, seeing how corrupt and worthless it is, getting angrier and more frustrated.

Tobi also stated that Nagato was the third SSP, and I don't know if that counted Madara.  Tobi might have been the second, attaining it when Madara and Hashirama mixed together.


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## tashamaria (Mar 7, 2012)

The funny thing is, before i had seen the danzo vs sasuke, i really thought tobi was danzo LOL.... But long story short watched all the anime, read the mangas ect, and now i think tobi is Izuna... we dont really know much about him and whos to say he never died? However if it isnt izuna , I believe whoever it is physically created "zetsu" and one half represents uchiha, the other senju. I believe tobi could just be a mad man worse that kabuto who has mixed both the dna into himself.... therefor has to implant the eyes (like kakashi) because he cant physically unlock them himself. This theory still works with izuna because if madara did take his eyes, i believe it was by force, so izuna took another uchiha's eyes and so on...  it might sound crazy but in the end it best be somebody worth it and not a character we havent met before otherwise the whole build up was alot of poopy doop!


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## kyuuball (Mar 7, 2012)

Easley said:


> So we have a problem. Who would Naruto recognize without being a totally unexpected person.



What if one half of his face is Madara, and the other half is Hashirama?  Certainly couldn't be walking around in public like that.


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## aretes (Mar 7, 2012)

zestu is a combine nation of senju and uchia the white zestu is the senju and the black zestu is the uchia


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## Talis (Mar 7, 2012)

BB Tobizuna theory.


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## Zakboy (Mar 8, 2012)

I think the latest episode has highlighted the significance of Zetsu. I know it's way behind the Manga, but it's added new information. 

this Madara was a Mokubunshin

Madara got the rinnegan and didn't die after the battle against Hashirama. He also created White Zetsu using Hashirama's cells. I don't think it's impossible to think that using Izanagi he faked his death, stayed alive, you get the point. How long he survived for, who knows. He either bided his time and grew older and weaker, or died soon at his full strength, recreated himself as a Zetsu, gave his Rinnegan and expected to be brought back to life with the Rinne Rebirth.

We've also seen Tobi's arm just turning into white material like Zetsu's body. So I think regardless of how it came about, the current Tobi has a body very similar to Zetsu's and was created by Madara.


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## Talis (Mar 8, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> Yes, I said that but I'm guessing you are using this to emphasis my point because there is no other reason for you to address something I already brought to light. Madara and Tobi share similar characteristics to the face, at least to the portion of the face revealed to us the reader. Stevie Wonder wearing sunglasses at night can even see that Madara and Tobi share the same facial characteristics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There was a rock on that face so the face got messed up like that plus he has no wrinkles on his other face side which we clearly see at that bridge chapters, he looks 1000x more as Obito compared to Madara if you remove all of Tobi's bag my sign clearly proves and and you are ignoring it because i am right about that one.


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## Talis (Mar 8, 2012)

Ryan Ensign said:


> Hey everyone, this is my very first post on these forums and I'm ready to get to work here hehe. This is my favorite topic in Naruto, since it's so controversial. I'll give you guys my thoughts. I will disprove all theories on who Tobi is.
> 
> First of all, I'll make a list of characters whom are believed to be Tobi.
> 
> ...


The thing is that Naruto was tall as Naruto when they were talking, and another thing is that a 13 years old Itachi was tall as a 20 years old Kisame.


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## Easley (Mar 9, 2012)

I'd consider the masked guy's ability not his height. This is a man who Minato suspected was Madara. The way he extracted, then summoned and controlled Kyuubi. This was first mentioned by Jiraiya way back in chapter 370 - only Madara has done it. Obito doing the same, barely a year after his rock encounter, is a huge stretch. His cruel and ruthless actions during the attack is not even close to Obito's personality.


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## son_michael (Mar 9, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'd consider the masked guy's ability not his height. This is a man who Minato suspected was Madara. The way he extracted, then summoned and controlled Kyuubi. This was first mentioned by Jiraiya way back in chapter 370 - only Madara has done it. Obito doing the same, barely a year after his rock encounter, is a huge stretch. His cruel and ruthless actions during the attack is not even close to Obito's personality.



I commend you for disregarding the height argument. Tobi not acting like Obito is expected if the kids been brainwashed or is just his body. 

Obito's personality really shined through when " tobi was a good boy", at least that is how this whole theory began, right?


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 9, 2012)

Every time this thread appears on the front page of the KL... 

He's Madara.

I've been saying it for years and my faith has yet to waver.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 9, 2012)

He can't be Madara, it's literally impossible.

The best you're going to get is a clone with Madara's DNA, and I don't find that particularly likely either.


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## MYJC (Mar 9, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I commend you for disregarding the height argument. Tobi not acting like Obito is expected if the kids been brainwashed or is just his body.
> 
> Obito's personality really shined through when " tobi was a good boy", at least that is how this whole theory began, right?



The funny thing is, if you read Kakashi gaiden, Obito never actually acted like that...people just like to convince themselves otherwise for some reason.

I think the theory began mainly because Tobi's hair looks like Obito's.



PikaCheeka said:


> Every time this thread appears on the front page of the KL...
> 
> He's Madara.
> 
> I've been saying it for years and my faith has yet to waver.



Well in that case...who's the guy the Kages are fighting?


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 9, 2012)

MYJC said:


> I think the theory began mainly because Tobi's hair looks like Obito's.



It was a combination of things, the biggest probably being the one eye and the hair.


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## PikaCheeka (Mar 9, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> He can't be Madara, it's literally impossible.
> 
> The best you're going to get is a clone with Madara's DNA, and I don't find that particularly likely either.



I challenge you to a duel, First Tsurugi. 



MYJC said:


> Well in that case...who's the guy the Kages are fighting?



Madara. 

Really, I believe that they are both Madara. I suspected that the sixth coffin was Madara two years ago when we first saw it and proposed a theory back then. I still stand by it, though obviously modified somewhat as it is two years old.


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## Ryan Ensign (Mar 9, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> It was a combination of things, the biggest probably being the one eye and the hair.



Even so, people tend to forget he was just part of a filler arc which had the main goal of giving Kakashi more backstory.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 9, 2012)

Ryan Ensign said:


> Even so, people tend to forget he was just part of a filler arc which had the main goal of giving Kakashi more backstory.



If it's in the manga, it's not filler.

Obito is no more irrelevant than people like Kagami, or the elder and younger sons.

In fact, he's a lot more relevant than they are, since we know a lot more about him than we do those characters.


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## shintebukuro (Mar 9, 2012)

The Tobi = Obito theory started mainly because of the similarities in their names, and then things like the single-eye mask supported it.

The hair was like number 8 on the list. I really hope no one on this forum bases any theories off of a character's hair, ever.


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## MYJC (Mar 9, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Madara.
> 
> Really, I believe that they are both Madara. I suspected that the sixth coffin was Madara two years ago when we first saw it and proposed a theory back then. I still stand by it, though obviously modified somewhat as it is two years old.



Wut? 

Maybe I'm wrong, but as far as I know you can't be in two places fighting two different sets of opponents at once. Nor can you be dead and alive. And I won't even get into the fact that they have different personalities...

Unless you mean Tobi is some sort of clone/copy of Madara, which I think is fairly likely.


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## AMtrack (Mar 9, 2012)

I said it in another thread but Tobi is nobody.  Ever seen V for Vendetta?  Thats what Tobi is, just an idea, a revolutionary if you will.  The mask doesn't hide an identity, it is his identity.


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## T-Bag (Mar 10, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> I said it in another thread but Tobi is nobody.  Ever seen V for Vendetta?  Thats what Tobi is, just an idea, a revolutionary if you will.  The mask doesn't hide an identity, it is his identity.



the words, "if you really wana see under this mask, then you're going to have to work hard for it!" makes it seem unlikely


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## AMtrack (Mar 10, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> the words, "if you really wana see under this mask, then you're going to have to work hard for it!" makes it seem unlikely



But he also said he was nobody...either way theyre two contradictory statements.  Him being nobody is every bit as likely as him being someone important.  There's an equal amount of proof for both notions.  Everyone he *can* be is already dead.  I don't see how him being nobody is any more outlandish than him being Izuna/Obito/insert ridiculous theory here.


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## T-Bag (Mar 10, 2012)

it'd be anti clamatic (very) if he was just nobody, after all these yrs of keeping his face from us. and tobi said "i don't want to be anybody" which means he is someone (that we know of) but doesn't care, and just wants one thing and one thing only, to complete his plan. add that with "you're going to have to work hard for it" and it all adds up


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## Escargon (Mar 10, 2012)

I noticed that theres way too many people saying hes an full Uchiha. Can Uchihas really replace SENJU limbs that easily?


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 10, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I noticed that theres way too many people saying hes an full Uchiha. Can Uchihas really replace SENJU limbs that easily?



When you're a Rikudou, anything is possible.


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## Almondsand (Mar 10, 2012)

Ryan Ensign said:


> Even so, people tend to forget he was just part of a filler arc which had the main goal of giving Kakashi more backstory.



Exactly he was just fodder with much more panel time than what is usually given. The Tobito theory is just hilarious, I respect people's ability to imagine things because it breeds the most outlandish beliefs.



First Tsurugi said:


> If it's in the manga, it's not filler.
> 
> Obito is no more irrelevant than people like Kagami, or the elder and younger sons.
> 
> In fact, he's a lot more relevant than they are, since we know a lot more about him than we do those characters.



All the people you mentioned are irrelevant, especially Obito. He served his purpose which was to complete Kakashi evolution in to the ninja he is currently. He serves no other purpose, he was weak character with no true strength just fodder for Kakashi's development. 
Tobi is a Madara Clone.



shintebukuro said:


> The Tobi = Obito theory started mainly because of the similarities in their names, and then things like the single-eye mask supported it.
> 
> The hair was like number 8 on the list. I really hope no one on this forum bases any theories off of a character's hair, ever.


First tsurugi and the rest of the supporters of the Tobito theory actually put the hair likeness in the top 3 reasons of why they support it. They use the hairstyle as justification of how much Tobi and Obito look alike when we are shown flashbacks of Tobi in the past his hair is long. They also are now claiming that the part of Tobi face that was revealed does not look remotely close to Madara's. They are very astute when it comes to noticing detail as you can see.



T-Bag said:


> it'd be anti clamatic (very) if he was just nobody, after all these yrs of keeping his face from us. and tobi said "i don't want to be anybody" which means he is someone (that we know of) but doesn't care, and just wants one thing and one thing only, to complete his plan. add that with "you're going to have to work hard for it" and it all adds up



Exactly he is a clone, usually this will make much more sense for someone to have an identity crisis. He mentions countless times that his power is very limited and is a shell of his former self. Mentioning that his true power, Uchiha Madara power will soon be gained again. Nagato using the Rinne Tensei destroyed hope of him reviving himself, and not only that his creator was revived through edo tensei. After these events come to past, he never denies that he is not Madara, instead he tells Naruto he can call him Madara or whatever he wants because now he doesn't care but about completing the Moon eye plan, which was the second part of his goal. When his face is reveal everyone will see that at least the right of his face is indeed Madara's.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 10, 2012)

There is no way Tobi's face is the same as Madara's, that would completely defeat the point of the mask.

The reason he's worn the mask for so long is because if people saw his true face, they'd know he wasn't really Madara.


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## T-Bag (Mar 10, 2012)

first tsurugi, i dont see how anyone can deny that tiny bit of his face we saw resembles madara's. his eye lid, and the curvy line under his eye looks exactly like madara's. only madara has been shown to have that trait


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## Escargon (Mar 10, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> When you're a Rikudou, anything is possible.



=o



T-Bag said:


> first tsurugi, i dont see how anyone can deny that tiny bit of his face we saw resembles madara's. his eye lid, and the curvy line under his eye looks exactly like madara's. only madara has been shown to have that trait



I dont think his face is fully Madaras. I think he implanted it into him to have two faces, the latest anime episodes almost confirms this. 

Wether he got two faces or not will propably be seen in the next episode when the new mask zooms in. If he got the same wrinkles on both eyes, then his propably just an old Uchiha, if its shadow around them, then im pretty much sure he got two faces.

Hopefully not Madara+Shishui or stuffs like that.


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## jacamo (Mar 10, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> But he also said he was nobody...either way theyre two contradictory statements.  Him being nobody is every bit as likely as him being someone important.  There's an equal amount of proof for both notions.  Everyone he *can* be is already dead.  I don't see how him being nobody is any more outlandish than him being Izuna/Obito/insert ridiculous theory here.



Tobi only said he was nobody for effect, as his ultimate goal doesnt involve anyone knowing his true identity, or he just doesnt want people to know who he is... Tobi is an Uchiha, first and foremost, he is too skilled with his Sharingan

just like the Madara clone theory, Tobi being a new character is THE MOST anti-climactic outcome Kishi could take.... we have all analysed the various outcomes to death so nothing would really "shock" me, apart from Newaki



T-Bag said:


> first tsurugi, i dont see how anyone can deny that tiny bit of his face we saw resembles madara's. his eye lid, and the curvy line under his eye looks exactly like madara's. only madara has been shown to have that trait



most Uchiha share those same facial traits... all the relevant Uchiha have those exact traits: Madara, Izuna, Sasuke, Itachi, Shisui, Obito, Kagami

apart from the baggy eyes, i'll admit that belongs to Madara/Izuna

however, Madara knows who Tobi is, which rules out the clone theory


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## MangoNaruto (Mar 10, 2012)

Not sure if anyone have mentioned it, Tobi is 100% Uchiha Fugaku (Itachi's and Sasuke's father).  Uchiha Fugaku most likely forced Itachi to stage his death to save Sasuke.  Also, the reason why Itachi stayed as an Akatsuki.  Lastly, Uchiha Fugaku is likely the son of Izuna or possibly even Madara.  But most likely Izuna's lineage, since Tobi reacted negatively when talking about Madara's taking of Izuna's eyes.  Besides the fact, Sasuke looks like a carbon copy of Izuna.  Would also make more sense on why the leniency to keep Fugaku around Konoha.  All this was planned by the Uchiha brothers, the act of betrayal, the sacrifice to defeat and obtain Hashirama's dna = hence the handing down of Hatred.  Well its probably some where along these lines.  Not sure if spoiler tag is needed.


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## Talis (Mar 10, 2012)

MangoNaruto said:


> Not sure if anyone have mentioned it, Tobi is 100% Uchiha Fugaku (Itachi's and Sasuke's father).  Uchiha Fugaku most likely forced Itachi to stage his death to save Sasuke.  Also, the reason why Itachi stayed as an Akatsuki.  Lastly, Uchiha Fugaku is likely the son of Izuna or possibly even Madara.  But most likely Izuna's lineage, since Tobi reacted negatively when talking about Madara's taking of Izuna's eyes.  Besides the fact, Sasuke looks like a carbon copy of Izuna.  Would also make more sense on why the leniency to keep Fugaku around Konoha.  All this was planned by the Uchiha brothers, the act of betrayal, the sacrifice to defeat and obtain Hashirama's dna = hence the handing down of Hatred.  Well its probably some where along these lines.  Not sure if spoiler tag is needed.



His appearence simply doesn't fit for Fugaku, his body was never messed up nor merged with Zetsu, the only thing which is cocky about it that Fugaku knew about the MS, perhaps he knew it from Tobi/Shisui.



Ryan Ensign said:


> Even so, people tend to forget he was just part of a filler arc which had the main goal of giving Kakashi more backstory.



It's actually pretty funny that the Kakashi's backstory were given the title to Obito himself lol.
I mean this is just the ultimate way to make an unmasked man going around, first reveal some bunch of characters in the very begin and end it up with 1 of them.



Ryan Ensign said:


> Even so, people tend to forget he was just part of a filler arc which had the main goal of giving Kakashi more backstory.



+ i want to add that it's not like that we have/had much more backstory of Madara himself, the only thing we knew was his battle, and ''stolen'' eyes.
And don't consider about ''Tobi's'' backstory his and Madara's are different since they ain't the same person. (I mean the flashbacks of the masked man, not when he's talking about Madara)


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## Escargon (Mar 10, 2012)

I wouldnt be surprised if Tobi ended up being Obito anyways after seeing the movie Vidocq (its about a masked man "similar" to Tobi..), im prepared that the face behind that mask could mindfuck my brain and that hard.


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## Easley (Mar 10, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I wouldnt be surprised if Tobi ended up being Obito anyways after seeing the movie Vidocq (its about a masked man "similar" to Tobi..), im prepared that the face behind that mask could mindfuck my brain and that hard.


I expect a mindfuck, but most of Kishi's reveals are weird and totally random. It is possible that Tobi is both Madara and Hashirama, or at least a creation based on their DNA. He is two-faced, literally. Hence the need to cover that shit. 

Few characters in this manga hide their identity behind a mask/cloak/bandages etc. They conceal a freakish power or bizarre appearance. Tobi might be the exception but I think there's a WTF waiting to happen. Something more crazy than Danzou's sharingan arm.


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## Ryan Ensign (Mar 10, 2012)

I think he's a Zetsu clone of Madara, he can perfectly copy appearances, yet he has short hair. Which could be one of his own features that are shining through. It could also explain the two different personalities Tobi has. We've seen before that when Zetsu's clones are injured while transformed, they revert back to their original appearance. That's why he wears the mask at all times, except for when he was with Zetsu. When they were inside their hideout, talking about taking out the Rinnegan from Nagato, who he had stored in his own dimension.


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## MYJC (Mar 10, 2012)

jacamo said:


> however, Madara knows who Tobi is, which rules out the clone theory



How so?

If Tobi IS a clone, he was probably created by and is working for Madara.


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## christoncrutches (Mar 11, 2012)

Based on the databook, I think it's Izuna in some capacity (perhaps with a Zetsu-repaired or -enhanced body, or possessed by someone). Unless they go the Code Geass route (with Madara and Izuna playing the parts of Charles and V.V.), I'd rather someone more imposing, like RS, Juubi, the elder son, or someone along those lines.

I definitely don't want it to be someone of no plot-importance otherwise like Setsuna, Kagami, Fugaku. Obito is fine, since I'm sure there has to be a deeper subplot (unless he's just been infused with Madara DNA like Yamato, though he was younger I believe). Shisui is an interesting case, since there's a lot of mystery surrounding his character relevant to Tobi.


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## Almondsand (Mar 12, 2012)

fpliii said:


> Based on the databook, I think it's Izuna in some capacity (perhaps with a Zetsu-repaired or -enhanced body, or possessed by someone). Unless they go the Code Geass route (with Madara and Izuna playing the parts of Charles and V.V.), I'd rather someone more imposing, like RS, Juubi, the elder son, or someone along those lines.
> 
> I definitely don't want it to be someone of no plot-importance otherwise like Setsuna, Kagami, Fugaku. Obito is fine, since I'm sure there has to be a deeper subplot (unless he's just been infused with Madara DNA like Yamato, though he was younger I believe). Shisui is an interesting case, since there's a lot of mystery surrounding his character relevant to Tobi.



No he is a Madara CLone.

Izuna = Worm shit


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 12, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> first tsurugi, i dont see how anyone can deny that tiny bit of his face we saw resembles madara's. his eye lid, and the curvy line under his eye looks exactly like madara's. only madara has been shown to have that trait



The resemblances you see are no different than someone seeing similarities in hairstyle or whatnot.

You're looking at this the wrong way.

Think about it, if even a part of Tobi's face were Madara's, why would he need to conceal his face?

He could simply use the portion of his face that looked like Madara to convince everyone that he was truly Madara.


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## Taijukage (Mar 12, 2012)

can we agree tobizuna is dead since madara confirmed izuna died?


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## Golden Circle (Mar 12, 2012)

Poll is missing an option.

The Akatsuki Leader is the Fourth Hokage in disguise.


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## skins (Mar 12, 2012)

I think he's a Madara clone merged with senju cells. :3


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## Talis (Mar 12, 2012)

Taijukage said:


> can we agree tobizuna is dead since madara confirmed izuna died?



Jep.
:repstorm


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## Escargon (Mar 12, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The resemblances you see are no different than someone seeing similarities in hairstyle or whatnot.
> 
> You're looking at this the wrong way.
> 
> ...



Theres no other character that has the same eye"wrinkles" as Tobi other than Madara, and he calls himself Madara, while at the same time, he got Madaras hairstyle if growed long, Madaras warfan and Madara knows him. 

The reason he wears a full mask is cause its comfortable i guess. It would suck wearing a half mask.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 13, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Theres no other character that has the same eye"wrinkles" as Tobi other than Madara, and he calls himself Madara, while at the same time, he got Madaras hairstyle if growed long, Madaras warfan and Madara knows him.



Madara's wrinkles do not look anything like what Tobi has. Tobi has way more wrinkles than Madara ever did.

Hair means nothing. His hairstyle did resemble Madara's at one point but that was likely to further his disguise. And people have also claimed his hair resembles Obito's, Izuna's, Shisui's, and Danzou's at various points. This is why you don't rely on physical traits as proof.

Having Madara's fan doesn't mean anything, it's just a tool.

Madara knowing him doesn't affect anything either.



> The reason he wears a full mask is cause its comfortable i guess. It would suck wearing a half mask.



This is bullshit, there is a reason for the mask beyond aesthetics.


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 13, 2012)

I had this real unlikely and crazy idea but how about Rin is "Tobi?"


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## Pureblooded (Mar 13, 2012)

Upon his death (after his battle with Hashirama), Madara used his last strength to create a new persona, "Tobi", a person to carry on his will, The Eye of the Moon plan, and in the future bring back himself from death. This would explain Tobi's comment "To become complete" and the fact that he got access to Hashirama's cells.


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## Talis (Mar 13, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Theres no other character that has the same eye"wrinkles" as Tobi other than Madara, and he calls himself Madara, while at the same time, he got Madaras hairstyle if growed long, Madaras warfan and Madara knows him.
> 
> The reason he wears a full mask is cause its comfortable i guess. It would suck wearing a half mask.



Ok you guys remove 5 of the bags to say that the only 1 eye bag resembles to Madara i remove all of the wrinkles to resemble the whole face as Obito.
Troll or not your choice.


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 13, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Ok you guys remove 5 of the bags to say that the only 1 eye bag resembles to Madara i remove all of the wrinkles to resemble the whole face as Obito.
> Troll or not your choice.


My problem with that is even if Obito survived that half of his face would be crushed, show signs of scaring at the least or damage? Then again he can regrow limbs so would it matter? But chances are he died. Obito is probably not Tobi but most possible IF you can prove he survived the mission when he was a kid.


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## JinDtheska (Mar 13, 2012)

I think Tobi is Kosuke the 50 year old Genin. Cook Ninja


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 13, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> My problem with that is even if Obito survived that half of his face would be crushed, show signs of scaring at the least or damage?



The half of Obito's face that was crushed is the same half that has "wrinkles" for Tobi.


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 13, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The half of Obito's face that was crushed is the same half that has "wrinkles" for Tobi.


I am aware but I do think that it would be cool if Rin was "Tobi" or at the very least assisting "Tobi" if he is Obito.


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## Talis (Mar 13, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> My problem with that is even if Obito survived that half of his face would be crushed, show signs of scaring at the least or damage? Then again he can regrow limbs so would it matter? But chances are he died. Obito is probably not Tobi but most possible IF you can prove he survived the mission when he was a kid.



His head wasnt crushed the rock didn't pierce through his head, we saw Tobis left face side which contains no wrinkles at chapter fist 485~ when he looks to Tobi+he's standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders, Tobi's body is messed up like Obito/Shisui's, his and Kakashis eye jutsu looks same, Tobi is a good boy, Kakashi is fighting against Tobi at the moment not just for the lolz, i can keep up with the list which contains bunch of facts, while the other theories contains no more then assumptions.


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## Escargon (Mar 13, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> This is bullshit, there is a reason for the mask beyond aesthetics.



We havent seen an aged Madara yet i guess, he would have wrinkles still. Those really are wrinkles from old ages, i dont think they are scars, look at Mifune.

Wonder why Tobi covers his hair now.. is he going bald?



loool3 said:


> Ok you guys remove 5 of the bags to say that the only 1 eye bag resembles to Madara i remove all of the wrinkles to resemble the whole face as Obito.
> Troll or not your choice.



Remove the wrinkle over the eye and it resembles everything=d



BTW one more thing, as im tired of Tobis identity, let me pull out something random: Tobi is future Kakashi from another dimension that took use of Obitos body. Thats why Kishi never showed Tobis or Kakashis mouth. Oh yeah theres something hiding there boys!


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## Talis (Mar 13, 2012)

Escargon said:


> We havent seen an aged Madara yet i guess, he would have wrinkles still. Those really are wrinkles from old ages, i dont think they are scars, look at Mifune.
> 
> Wonder why Tobi covers his hair now.. is he going bald?
> 
> ...



 Actually i am wondering when the Madara fans will start the future Madara theory.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Mar 13, 2012)

Guys, I think we should just be patient and wait until Kishi reveals Tobi's face. Kishi is the only one in the world who knows who Tobi is. So, there's no point in guessing who he is.


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## Talis (Mar 13, 2012)

It's worth discussing though.


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## Mistshadow (Mar 13, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Guys, I think we should just be patient and wait until Kishi reveals Tobi's face. Kishi is the only one in the world who knows who Tobi is. So, there's no point in guessing who he is.



How about .................................







No.

Anyways does anyone have the exact translation of the madara statement about his brother being dead, leaving only his eyes, and should have taught shodai to resurrect from the dead?

Because if read differently, it can be assumed that izuna is still a viable suspect.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 13, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Anyways does anyone have the exact translation of the madara statement about his brother being dead, leaving only his eyes, and should have taught shodai to resurrect from the dead?
> 
> Because if read differently, it can be assumed that izuna is still a viable suspect.


: "What remained after my younger brother's death was only the ocular power of both my eyes" (「弟が死んで残ったものはオレの両眼の瞳力しかない」, "Otōto ga shinde nokotta mono wa ore no ryōme no dōryoku shika nai")​: "? hashirama? whatever you handed down (to her)...
? at this level ..(she's) nowhere near you."
"if you were to have your underling(/a fodder) take over from you, 
you should've taught them how to resurrect (you/the dead) like I did." 
"?you died and only the vitality of your cells sticking to me remains. "

-page 8
"my brother died and only the ocular power of my eyes remains."​


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 13, 2012)

loool3 said:


> His head wasnt crushed the rock didn't pierce through his head, we saw Tobis left face side which contains no wrinkles at chapter fist 485~ when he looks to Tobi+he's standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders, Tobi's body is messed up like Obito/Shisui's, his and Kakashis eye jutsu looks same, Tobi is a good boy, Kakashi is fighting against Tobi at the moment not just for the lolz, i can keep up with the list which contains bunch of facts, while the other theories contains no more then assumptions.


Sounds like an assumption. Just because his face wasn't "crushed" doesn't mean he lived.


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## The Weeknd (Mar 13, 2012)

It is official then. He's either Future Kakashi or Obito's long lost brother.


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## Talis (Mar 13, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> Sounds like an assumption. Just because his face wasn't "crushed" doesn't mean he lived.



Yeah, and Tobi has a wrinkled face side and a clean face side just for fashion, and lets just ignore the other facts like always.


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## son_michael (Mar 13, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> Sounds like an assumption. Just because his face wasn't "crushed" doesn't mean he lived.



In fiction,its foolish to assume someone died when your not actually shown the dead body.

Actually even if Obito died Kishi could still make tobi him, Resurrection exist's in the narutoverse.But that would be stupid...so it's more likely that obito was either

1. saved and brainwashed

2. dead and used as a vessel

3. alive and used as a vessel


oh how fun it would be if we are right


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 13, 2012)

Being brainwashed or used as a vessel are copouts, the twist will only really have an impact if it's 100% Obito acting of his own will.

Then you can play it for all the drama it's worth, and you have a great foil for the MC.


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## son_michael (Mar 13, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Being brainwashed or used as a vessel are copouts, the twist will only really have an impact if it's 100% Obito acting of his own will.
> 
> Then you can play it for all the drama it's worth, and you have a great foil for the MC.



well there is considerable drama in someone being forced to do evil and hurt their friends.



The way tobi is acting though....I don't think that's it at all. 100% evil obito would be cool  Though I Still think either its just his body or eye that's being used, that obito isn't even in there anymore.


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## MYJC (Mar 14, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Being brainwashed or used as a vessel are copouts, the twist will only really have an impact if it's 100% Obito acting of his own will.
> 
> Then you can play it for all the drama it's worth, and you have a great foil for the MC.



Him being a non-brainwashed Obito just doesn't fit for a several reasons...

1. He's run into Kakashi several times, and not ONCE has he given any indication that he knows him or ever knew him personally. It's hard to imagine he could just completely ignore the presence of his old friend.

2. When he's fighting Konan, he refers to her as a "child". If it was Obito, he would actually be no older than her, in fact he'd be a little younger. 

3. What would be the point of hiding his identity at this point?

4. When he fought the 4th Hokage, he got caught off guard by Hirashin v2. If he was just Obito, he should've known about that considering that Minato was his sensei.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm really for a brainwashed/Kotoamatsukmai'd Obito.Or some other evil mind took over his body.All cool


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 14, 2012)

son_michael said:


> In fiction,its foolish to assume someone died when your not actually shown the dead body.
> 
> Actually even if Obito died Kishi could still make tobi him, Resurrection exist's in the narutoverse.But that would be stupid...so it's more likely that obito was either
> 
> ...


You have a point but nonetheless someone being half crushed by boulders and then buried doesn't really take much for one to figure out that the CHANCES of him being dead is HIGH. He is most likely dead. However that is more proof to me than him being dead rather than alive. "Tobi" is able to transplant eyes into himself, that may seem like some rudimentary healing ability yet I think its not. Rin is the only character to have known that ability and she is for all purposes "dead" as well. "Tobi" may be Obito but his possible death was at least shown whereas Rin to me hasn't. I think Rin may have a role to play with "Tobi." In either her being "Tobi" (could take the name from Obito's for memory sake) or is assisting "Tobi" be it Obito or not.


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## son_michael (Mar 14, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> You have a point but nonetheless someone being half crushed by boulders and then buried doesn't really take much for one to figure out that the CHANCES of him being dead is HIGH. He is most likely dead. However that is more proof to me than him being dead rather than alive. "Tobi" is able to transplant eyes into himself, that may seem like some rudimentary healing ability yet I think its not. Rin is the only character to have known that ability and she is for all purposes "dead" as well. "Tobi" may be Obito but his possible death was at least shown whereas Rin to me hasn't. I think Rin may have a role to play with "Tobi." In either her being "Tobi" (could take the name from Obito's for memory sake) or is assisting "Tobi" be it Obito or not.



There's no way rin has that much plot significance. At best, it would be revealed that she was motivation for obito turning evil. From a writers standpooint, nobody cares about rin. Rin didn't stand out in kakashi Gaiden, obito and kakashi did. Rin was the sakura of that team, need I say more? 

and besides, tobi is clearly male, and now that I think of it..I bet your just trolling me


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 14, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Him being a non-brainwashed Obito just doesn't fit for a several reasons...
> 
> 1. He's run into Kakashi several times, and not ONCE has he given any indication that he knows him or ever knew him personally. It's hard to imagine he could just completely ignore the presence of his old friend.



That would make it too obvious. 

Plus, Kakashi has had some prominence when it comes to Tobi. He was the first one to notice Tobi had a Sharingan, and he'll probably be present for his unmasking. Perhaps to identify him?



> 2. When he's fighting Konan, he refers to her as a "child". If it was Obito, he would actually be no older than her, in fact he'd be a little younger.



I don't know if that translation is accurate, I believe the anime had it slightly different.

Regardless, that was when he was role-playing Madara.



> 3. What would be the point of hiding his identity at this point?



Well it's like he says, his true identity does not matter. 

I don't really see how this goes against Obito specifically. After all, he's one of the few candidates who would actually be recognized were it not for the mask, so logically he would have the most reason to keep it on.



> 4. When he fought the 4th Hokage, he got caught off guard by Hirashin v2. If he was just Obito, he should've known about that considering that Minato was his sensei.



Knowing about something and being able to deal with it are two very different things.

Everyone knows about Minato's speed, yet every opponent he faces is amazed by it regardless.


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## son_michael (Mar 14, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Plus, Kakashi has had some prominence when it comes to Tobi. He was the first one to notice Tobi had a Sharingan, and he'll probably be present for his unmasking. Perhaps to identify him?



don't forget that tobi told kakashi kamui was useless against him before kakashi even used it.


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## IamUchiha123 (Mar 14, 2012)

*My theory on tobi's identity. It's different so please read*

*After reading a lot of Naruto & fan opinions I decide to present a small part of my crazy fantasy .*F
Give me your opinions.
The truth about the masked man "Tobi"
Tobi decides to reveal to truth about himself to Naruto, maybe to distract him or maybe because naruto's ability to influence people started to affect him, Tobi's unsure but continues to speak...
Tobi: Your existence is irrelevant, I wished to use you & sasuke to entertain me & help me complete my moons eye plan but since you act so much like "Him" I'm too impatient to wait for your demise. Your death won't be prolonged any longer.
Naruto: You seem awfully talkative Masked guy, & very sure that what you say have purpose. Are you still No one?F
Tobi: Your mind cannot process how irrelevant this world is, no one here serves a higher purpose but to be used as tools. We all are No one. We were play things to entertain "Him" . Now "He" shall entertain Me!
Naruto: Who?... Who hurt you?
Tobi: pain is weakness & also very irrelevant. I could never be reduced to feel. I am a ninja. A tool.F
Naruto: ...
Tobi: hmmmm, you children are all fed a fairytale version of who the Rikudou was. Which is why you seen him as a mere myth until recently. That's because I wanted you all to.F
Naruto: how could you have controlled even that? It doesn't make sense.
Tobi: you talk about "sense" as if you haven't already believed that I was the legendary Uchiha who would be over a hundred years old. What you believe is just an illusion i created before you were born. No, I used his name so that you babies could relate to the fear & chaos I was going to inflict on this world. I will tell you about the Rikudou, the man.
Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, & Guy:....
Tobi: as you are taught the Rikudou used izanagi to create alot of things such as ninjutsu & the tailed beast. But after he created his sons he felt that it was unfair that they could use these gifts & the world can't. So he created spores to take on human like forms & infiltrate the other clans & teach them ninjutsu. Amongst them spores I was created. I was nearly killed by the Uchiha boy after I, myself, killed over a thousand of my brothers & sisters. The Rikudou, however, saved me. He believed that nothing he created was wrong & I was merely craving attention. So he made me his assistant. & he trained me. Little did he know I was the birth of the evil he had deep down inside. He didn't know he was capable of having an evil side because no one or nothing was powerful enough to push him far. But there I was, hiding in plain sight. In his old age I was able to remain young & he felt that he trusted me more than his sons. He decided to make me the ten tails second jinchuuriki. & thats what I became. Once inside me I gained the sharingan & other abilities from the beast. I began to set my plan into motion. But the Senju son was weary of me & my motivations & he feared it didn't match the rikudous wishes . He brought this information to the Rikudou & said he planned on removing the ten tails from my possession. His father gave him his consent & sat back and watched. I knew it was only a matter of time before I was pinned against the family. So I used my special genjutsu to manipulate the Uchiha son into picking a fight with his brother. This bought me time but I wasn't careful enough & the Rikudou stripped the ten tails from me before I could complete my jutsu. I lost. He was very old at that time & so that I couldn't easily get the ten tails back he split them up into nine different beast & to ensure I wouldn't gain that much power again he sealed half of the ten tails with him in the moon . His sons began to populate this world & passed down the beast generation to generation. I wasn't strong enough to even take on even their off spring @ the time so I used a jutsu I learned from the ten tails to seal half my soul away in a void where it can rest & allow the other half to roam the world. My body was kept frozen away in the rikudous special barrier. I began to study your people & found a pattern. & I came across a spore who resembled me, he is known a zetsu now, & I used him to comeback into existence. & set my plan into motion... You see, I am here to reverse the horrors the Rikudou brought upon you all. I'm here to save you from yourselves...F
All: !!!!!
Tobi: (it worked as planned)F
- to be continued...


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## Miriam56 (Mar 14, 2012)




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## LaurenSensei (Mar 14, 2012)

son_michael said:


> There's no way rin has that much plot significance. At best, it would be revealed that she was motivation for obito turning evil. From a writers standpooint, nobody cares about rin. Rin didn't stand out in kakashi Gaiden, obito and kakashi did. Rin was the sakura of that team, need I say more?
> 
> and besides, tobi is clearly male, and now that I think of it..I bet your just trolling me


I don't know, maybe I am trolling? I like to keep in touch with differing view points. You're not Loool3 whom is the person I talked to originally about the Obito being/not being "Tobi" discussion. You quoted me first. I don't mean to come off as a "troll" but I just tend to respond to whoever responds to me is all.

Also I am aware of Rin not being major. Partly why to me it would so perfect.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 14, 2012)

Tobi isnt Obito because he cant age that much when kakashi was just a kid (remember when kurama attacked konoha).
Now Tobi can be either
1. uchicha izuna (madara's brother)- Tobi once said that Izuna willingly gave his eyes to madara and also Tobi is fond of storing sharingan eyes (remember his hideout where he has stored lots of them).Also when real madara was revived, he said "its HIS doing".so it rules out existence of obito because he was not born when madara was alive.Also only someone like Madara is capable of taming Kyuubi.In this case it should be Uchicha Izuna (equally talented and powerful as Madara).Also only he knew that before dying Madara has evoked Rinnegan,so either he would have taken Madara's eyes (which he later gave to nagato) or evoked rinnegan on his own.

2. He can be Madara's son.

So Tobi is most probably Uchicha Izuna.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 14, 2012)

Madara confirmed Izuna is dead, it can't be him.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 14, 2012)

Tobi himself said "Izuna willingly gave his eyes to him."And there is no confirmation that he is dead.
Its just in fairies that he is dead.


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## MrCatalyst (Mar 14, 2012)

DUNGEON, perhaps read Chapter 577? Link removed
Clearly states he died and gave his eyes to him. c:

Anyway, I'd say it's simply Zetsu-Madara made by the real Madara. Who could know everything about Madara's past, look like him as well - Kisame seen Madara's face so it can't be Kagami as they look completely different, and he has power of both Senju and Uchiha meaning Shodai's cells. We've been told not everyone can cope with their power, Yamato managed but poison kept them nullified and Danzo did as well but he was more like failed experiment in a way. And this also explains why Tobi cannot deactivate his Sharingan, if it's a Zetsu-Madara he cannot do it just like Kakashi with his Sharingan which was also transplanted. As of to how Tobi can use his powers with just a Sharingan, simply by gaining the power of previous owners as Madara has a lab full of Sharingans and they carry their owner's power.
Not sure how it works with controlling the Kyuubi though as only Madara could do it but Shodai could control it using Mokuton so Sharingan + Mokuton can also work and makes sense if real Madara gave his Rinnegan to Nagato.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 14, 2012)

And we know Madara's son and grandsons also existed.So it can be one of them.Only a son(uchicha kami) can know all about his father (madara).


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## Talis (Mar 14, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> Tobi isnt Obito because he cant age that much when kakashi was just a kid (remember when kurama attacked konoha).
> Now Tobi can be either
> 1. uchicha izuna (madara's brother)- Tobi once said that Izuna willingly gave his eyes to madara and also Tobi is fond of storing sharingan eyes (remember his hideout where he has stored lots of them).Also when real madara was revived, he said "its HIS doing".so it rules out existence of obito because he was not born when madara was alive.Also only someone like Madara is capable of taming Kyuubi.In this case it should be Uchicha Izuna (equally talented and powerful as Madara).Also only he knew that before dying Madara has evoked Rinnegan,so either he would have taken Madara's eyes (which he later gave to nagato) or evoked rinnegan on his own.
> 
> ...


Look at 13 years old Itachi which is tall as 20 years old Kisame when he just joined the Akatsuki, then come talk about the height crap.

And your pretty funny you know, you disagree with the Tobito theory because of his seize, but yet you accept Izuna's 120 years+ age.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 14, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Look at 13 years old Itachi which is tall as 20 years old Kisame when he just joined the Akatsuki, then come talk about the height crap.



where is it written that Itachi joined akastuki at the age of 13.He just got himself into anbu at 13.
also kindly read my whole post.Obito isnt Tobi.


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## Talis (Mar 14, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> where is it written that Itachi joined akastuki at the age of 13.He just got himself into anbu at 13.
> also kindly read my whole post.Obito isnt Tobi.



I am not gonna bring the whole ''the long haired masked man was the real Madara'' thing or it will cost me another 3h writting, ill keep it short, look at the guy which controled Yagura, he had bandages on his chest, Madara died with a sword cut through it, the guy used Koto Amatsukami, same tech as Shisui, but Itachi says a pretty interesting line; with Senju Dna you can spam this technique= Shisui never had them so he got that line from Madara pretty much.
+Tobi can't fool Kisame telling him that hes Madara, Kisame clearly knew the real Madara he even says ''i believe hes long dead, show me yourself''.

So ok Itachi wasn't 13 he was 14-15 like it matters, the point is there was still a huge gap between their ages yet they were even tall, Obito should be supposed to be around 17 years when he fought at that night means much older then Itachi at that point, plus even Naruto was as tall as Minato when they were talking in his belly their age difference was like what 6? 7?
Plus he's merged with Zetsu goo so don't be surprised if his sieze got modified by that also.

''Only Madara is capable of taming Kyuubi'', remember how Kishi pulled the ''with both Uchiha/Senju Dna you can controle the Kyuubi'' out of his ass crap? Oh don't even forget the ''MS can controle Kyuubi also''.
You see how much asspulls are around for making the Tobito theory a reality, and look at Tobi's other half face which had no wrinkles at chapter Fists 486~ when he looks back to Zetsu you see no wrinkles on that face and the most *hilarious* thing is that Tobi is standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders.
Kakashi is fighting against Tobi at the moment.

Tobi was shown with an 1 eye holed orange mask with a smilar S/T to Kakashi, he was acting goofy, Zetsu called him even a good ''boy'' which rules out granny Tobizuna theory.
And even Kakashis epic Sharingan glare to Tobi was just suspectfull, and even Kakashi years has been delayed several times.

It's just pretty obvious how you deal with these situations, make something Obvious as shit and after that start mindfqing people.

Put all these lines against ''i am Madara so he's Madara theory'' / ''I am not Madara so he's Izuna theory''.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 14, 2012)

14-15 age is just your speculation.Show me something concrete.All i am saying is Tobi isnt obito.he is one of madara's son or grandsons.


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## Talis (Mar 14, 2012)

And a new thing which i noticed in the new chapter;

Kages vs villian
Brochiha's vs villian.
Friends vs Villian. 

Stating Gaikashi and Tobito on the last one.


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh I thought of something a bit better than my previous Rin theory (which I still think could be awesome if its true.) What if "Tobi" is the Uchiha Clan Ancestor?


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## Talis (Mar 14, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> Oh I thought of something a bit better than my previous Rin theory (which I still think could be awesome if its true.) What if "Tobi" is the Uchiha Clan Ancestor?



The only thing i can think of is him having spiral eyes like Tobi's S/T, but i am sure it will be a character with much more backstories.
And Rin being Tobi? 
Maybe Tobito copied Rins healing ability but i highly doubt that even.


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 14, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The only thing i can think of is him having spiral eyes like Tobi's S/T, but i am sure it will be a character with much more backstories.
> And Rin being Tobi?
> Maybe Tobito copied Rins healing ability but i highly doubt that even.


The whole "curse of hate" thing with the Uchiha clan as well as wanting to continue that hate seems to correspond with the Uchiha Clan Ancestor. It goes with him ruling the Ninja world and him wanting to control everything which I think is a goal that the Uchiha Clan Ancestor would want in carrying on his father's dream. The rejection hurt him so that is why "Tobi" says "there is no hope." Also why he says "He isn't anyone or wants to be anyone, that all he wants is to carry out the Moon Eye Plan." "Tobi" isn't in this for himself, he is in it just for the sake of an illusionary peace. I don't know about his appearance or anything but "Tobi's" current beliefs, the way he speaks is something I speculate that best correlates to the Uchiha Clan Ancestor. Being the son of the Six Path Sage, it would explain his knowledge of the tailed beasts, Sharingan, Rinnegan, and the history between the Uchiha and Senju because he is the one who started it. So is my new theory... or its Rin?


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## Hash (Mar 14, 2012)

Here's my hypothesis in finding who's "hidden" behind the mask.
Let's see the things we know untill now..
1  Around 10 years have passed since the U.I(Uchiha incident).
2  Tobi tried to capture the Kyubi and failed.
3  Tobi has a various collection of Sharingans,as seen in Sasuke's surgery episode.
4  Kisame knows who Tobi is.
5  Tobi has a grundge against Konoha and is a heartless bastard.
6  Tobi has all the information about the U.I.
7  Tobi created Akatsuki.
8  Tobi uses a jutsu much similar to that Kakashi uses but apparently inferior,and just from the right eye(remember when he was forced to use Izanagi he sacrificed his left eye).
9   He can dodge sword and man-to-man attacks althought he always let them pass him by(remember when suigetsu attacked and Tobi defended with just his arm).
10   Tobi is an Earth type user,and we haven't seen him using the fire element,so it's higly possible he is NOT an uchiha(cause the main characteristic of an Uchiha is the eyes and the fire element
11   Tobi is old.
12   Rinegan needs the combination of Senju AND Uchiha to be activated.

     And now the good stuff!!!!           Has anyone noticed that Hashirama has a wife and 2 grandchildren but NOT A SON to pass his gems???I guess the majority hasn't.Why a son of the most powerful ninja (except his highness the "Sage of 6") hasn't been mentiond anywhere?Is he not worth talking about?..  Of couse he is!And that's why kisimoto hide tis pair this well.
     Now let me form my hypothesis."Tobi" is the son of Hashirama.For whatever reasons,or that h can't use Wood Release(he can just use Wood),either whatever other reason,he flees from the the village ashamed,and makes a family.Hashirama kills Tobi's wife and takes his newborns children beacuse they are his succesors and he want to have them by his side.Tobi runs away swearing for revenge.After that,he just cannot stand his children to be manipulated by his father Hashirama,so he decides to kill them,but he just stopped to Nawaki.Then he tries to cooperate with different teams and clans such as Iwagakure in order to damage Konoha whick he now hates,and later on he kills obito,whom after the battle,steals the other eye..Years passes,and with the help of Orochimaru(that's where Orochimaru found Hashirama's cells for his experiments) who enables him to live longer,he waits for the right time,and with the U.I he steals the majority of the sharingans.He is 
bound to take revenge to Konoha,and as we know the best way to defeat a Senju is by hiring or "using" Uchihas.And that's what Tobi,the son of Hashirama did.
   Now let's stick them all together from last to first.
12  Tobi IS a senju and he has Uchiha's eyes.                                             
11  Tobi is older than tsunade so he's OLD!                                              
10  He's not an Uchiha,he's a Senju.                                                            
9  He can dodge them cause he has the valuable cells of Hashirama.     
8  Tobi has Obito's eyes properties an mastered them.    
7  ..In order to revenge Konoha
6  ...Of course!
5  ...That's SURE!
4  I guess they know each other from the past.
3  Yes,after the U.I
2  He is a Senju and had a Sharingan so he had the potential to do so,but failed.after all he is not Madara.
1  Yes,and now he is stronger than ever!


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## Talis (Mar 14, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> The whole "curse of hate" thing with the Uchiha clan as well as wanting to continue that hate seems to correspond with the Uchiha Clan Ancestor. It goes with him ruling the Ninja world and him wanting to control everything which I think is a goal that the Uchiha Clan Ancestor would want in carrying on his father's dream. The rejection hurt him so that is why "Tobi" says "there is no hope." Also why he says "He isn't anyone or wants to be anyone, that all he wants is to carry out the Moon Eye Plan." "Tobi" isn't in this for himself, he is in it just for the sake of an illusionary peace. I don't know about his appearance or anything but "Tobi's" current beliefs, the way he speaks is something I speculate that best correlates to the Uchiha Clan Ancestor. Being the son of the Six Path Sage, it would explain his knowledge of the tailed beasts, Sharingan, Rinnegan, and the history between the Uchiha and Senju because he is the one who started it. So is my new theory... or its Rin?


It should go fine, but that will open many many more questions/stories open, that means he won the fight and stole his bro's Dna, what happend after it?
He couldn't have lived that freaking long and theres nobody who could have ressurect him.


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## LaurenSensei (Mar 14, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It should go fine, but that will open many many more questions/stories open, that means he won the fight and stole his bro's Dna, what happend after it?
> He couldn't have lived that freaking long and theres nobody who could have ressurect him.


Possible or like Madara, he lost and still got the DNA? Who knows, the victor between those two was never said or possibly even never settled? Their fight was carried on down through their families which branched off into the Uchiha clan and the Senju clan. It does open many questions as you say which none are answerable or at least not with confidence. I just find it hard that Obito is "Tobi" even if he manage to survive, what his motive? It just doesn't add up to me. I think "Tobi" and his current goals and the way he speaks seem to go back with the Senju and Uchiha. Its a point he made more than once, its important to him. Obito wouldn't have that knowledge (or I wouldn't think he would being a young kid.)


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## Talis (Mar 14, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> Possible or like Madara, he lost and still got the DNA? Who knows, the victor between those two was never said or possibly even never settled? Their fight was carried on down through their families which branched off into the Uchiha clan and the Senju clan. It does open many questions as you say which none are answerable or at least not with confidence. I just find it hard that Obito is "Tobi" even if he manage to survive, what his motive? It just doesn't add up to me. I think "Tobi" and his current goals and the way he speaks seem to go back with the Senju and Uchiha. Its a point he made more than once, its important to him. Obito wouldn't have that knowledge (or I wouldn't think he would being a young kid.)



The thing which goes against it if this happens Kishi must come up with a bunch of new crap.
It will turn out to be a V2 Madara Hashirama story which isn't needed if Kishi wanted to do such thing as this he would have sticked with the Tobidara theory.


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## Escargon (Mar 15, 2012)

Is Kishi even aware that we want Tobi to be someone we already know? Im pretty sure he can just pull out a Madara clone from his butt or something.

Its damn obvious its a Madara clone.

He ruined every god damn theory, the first one being Obito. I mean how evil can you get, giving him a mask faking that he got one eye, making him retarded, making him stare at Kakashi and making the exact same hairstyle as Obito and then, then, oh god.. he looks... old.

And then came Danzo. Why not? Nah, hes not Danzo.

Then Madara. No hes not Madara. I dont understand why.

And then Izuna. No hes not Izuna.

Then who the hell is he? Kaiza? I cant think of anyone. Even if having Madaras face implanted into him doesnt make it easier. Yes, Tobi could easily have implanted the cells of Madara and looking like him. Propably how Kabuto ressed Madara, stole some DNA from the masked man who is starting to piss me off.

EDIT: Almost forgot this one: Kakashi showed up "OH ITS OBITO AFTER ALL!" Tobi: Lol maggot. Me: "Oh fk this.."

And how long has it been since Naruto said hes going to remove that mask of Tobi? I thought we would see it a long time ago, why is Kishi hiding him like that? 

Kishi, i hope that you will mindfuck me. Im pretty sure youre saving Tobis face to the end of the manga to make his face fking change the Naruto story instantly. Like that. 

But nah, i dont have those hopes.


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## Talis (Mar 15, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Is Kishi even aware that we want Tobi to be someone we already know? Im pretty sure he can just pull out a Madara clone from his butt or something.
> 
> Its damn obvious its a Madara clone.
> 
> ...


Kishi definately wants us to think that hes Obito major proofs besides the mask and S/T style;
Link removed
1: He has no scars on his other face side.
2: The *most* important one of all, he's standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders on it!
I mean c'mon, boulders on a wall?!
That's a bit to suspectfull.


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## Escargon (Mar 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Kishi definately wants us to think that hes Obito major proofs besides the mask and S/T style;
> Link removed
> 1: He has no scars on his other face side.
> 2: The *most* important one of all, he's standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders on it!
> ...



Isnt that the wall of Hashirama? =D

He do look exactly like Obito there. 

Im not that into Naruto but when Tobi found Sasoris ring, imagine if thats the place Obito died. <<


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## xArunOwnsz (Mar 15, 2012)

See my threat "The Truth of Tobi" in my sig. You'll see the truth.


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## Kali95 (Mar 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Kishi definately wants us to think that hes Obito major proofs besides the mask and S/T style;
> Link removed
> 1: He has no scars on his other face side.
> 2: The *most* important one of all, he's standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders on it!
> ...



Hahah, people still believe this? Sorry, that theory officially died the second it was confirmed that Tobi was around before Obito was even born.


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## Talis (Mar 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I am not gonna bring the whole ''the long haired masked man was the real Madara'' thing or it will cost me another 3h writting, ill keep it short, look at the guy which controled Yagura, he had bandages on his chest, Madara died with a sword cut through it, the guy used Koto Amatsukami, same tech as Shisui, but Itachi says a pretty interesting line; with Senju Dna you can spam this technique= Shisui never had them so he got that line from Madara pretty much.
> +Tobi can't fool Kisame telling him that hes Madara, Kisame clearly knew the real Madara he even says ''i believe hes long dead, show me yourself''.
> 
> So ok Itachi wasn't 13 he was 14-15 like it matters, the point is there was still a huge gap between their ages yet they were even tall, Obito should be supposed to be around 17 years when he fought at that night means much older then Itachi at that point, plus even Naruto was as tall as Minato when they were talking in his belly their age difference was like what 6? 7?
> ...





Kali95 said:


> Hahah, people still believe this? Sorry, that theory officially died the second it was confirmed that Tobi was around before Obito was even born.


 .....


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## psypher22 (Mar 15, 2012)

honestly, the only person I believe Tobi could be, is Madara.

No other character has any relevance, or could provide enough of a surprise factor.

I dont think the WHO question of Tobi is as important as the HOW.

As in, HOW is Madara still alive, when obviously the five kages are fighting his dead body?

the answer i think lies in the CLONE of the first hokage, whatshisface (ant remember his name).

I think Orochimaru is involved, and I believe that, somehow, when Madara was nearing death, he had Orochimaru clone him. Some kind of deal went down.

And in exchange, Madara offered to give his body to Orochimaru. SO, Orochimaru cloned Madara so that he could continue to live, and then Orochimaru was given the dead body of Madara in order to continue perfecting edo tensei. 

This whole thing hits a snag, though, when u think about How madara would gain back his sharingan. perhaps his lifeforce was transferred into the body of a young, dead, uchiha...

OBITO, perhaps?

Just something to kick around!


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## DUNGEON (Mar 16, 2012)

Uchicha Madara died long ago when there was no sign of Obito anywhere.
And then again Madara said " it HIS doing".it means he knows him from the time he was alive. its definitely not obito.ISNT IT SO OBVIOUS.he is either izuna(who might have faked his death) or Madara's son (Kami) or some1 older to madara (maybe his father).


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## Talis (Mar 16, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> Uchicha Madara died long ago when there was no sign of Obito anywhere.
> And then again Madara said " it HIS doing".it means he knows him from the time he was alive. its definitely not obito.ISNT IT SO OBVIOUS.he is either izuna(who might have faked his death) or Madara's son (Kami) or some1 older to madara (maybe his father).



Kami, lol what?
Kagami? He wasn't Madaras son. 
Your just blindly accepting a theory without having a clue lol.


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## thepowerofscience (Mar 16, 2012)

LaurenSensei said:


> Wouldn't it be great if "Tobi" was a woman?



using henge to hide his boobs, now I know why the aktasuki members use nail polish influence from the founder.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 16, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Kami, lol what?
> Kagami? He wasn't Madaras son.
> Your just blindly accepting a theory without having a clue lol.



There is nothing to be lol about.
he is Uchicha KAMI not kagami.
and we all here are feeding upon speculations (in your voice blind acceptance of theories)

at the end of the kishi is the god.we dont know what crap he pulls on us at the end of the day


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## Talis (Mar 16, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> There is nothing to be lol about.
> he is Uchicha KAMI not kagami.
> and we all here are feeding upon speculations (in your voice blind acceptance of theories)
> 
> at the end of the kishi is the god.we dont know what crap he pulls on us at the end of the day



Cool story bro, .
Alltho got no freaking idea why they show Nagato when you insert Kami.


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## son_michael (Mar 16, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Cool story bro, .
> Alltho got no freaking idea why they show Nagato when you insert Kami.



Probably because kami means God in japanese and one of Nagato's pain bodies represented the God path....or the fact that Nagato is known as another rikuudo and Rikkudo is said to be a God



my guess anyway


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## Amusing (Mar 17, 2012)

I was once convinced that Tobi was Izuna, but now Madara has said his brother is dead, and I don't think he's lying.
Kishi has giving us very confused clues, but it seems he almost wants to push us to believe that Tobi is Obito ( the hole on the right side of his mask, space-time jutsu like this one of Kakashi, his hair cut, his youthful aspect, the fact that we have discovered he has  Sharingan when his eye has been crossed with that of Kakashi, the fact that at this moment Kakashi is present on the batterfilel against Tobi, that we don't know what happened to Obito's corpse, and other clues which have been already widely explained).

I don't know if these clues deserve consideration, they could also be a trap by Kishi.

However, I think I can tell one sure thing: he isn't an old man. In episode 253 the animators have taken some "licences" in drawing Tobi's face (in some moments they draw him hardly without wrinkles) and I think they've followed some Kishi's suggestions.

To understand once and for all who's Tobi, we must discover two crucial things:
1) the time in which Tobi and Madara have agreed
2) if Tobi has Mangekyou and his shape (that is to discover if Tobi's  space time powers are similar or the same compared to Kakashi ones).

I exclude Tobi is a new character, because his mistery has been prolonged too much: he's someone we have already seen. At this moment, the only characters of the past which can be still young to the present are Obito and Nawaki. Shisui is impossible, because he died after kyubi's attack against Konoha and at that time he was as old as Itachi.

Therefore, at the moment I still rest at Obito's theory (but only corpse, not mind). Who is serving of his cadaver I don't know, perhaps it isn't Madara either.


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## jacamo (Mar 17, 2012)

before Sasuke vs Danzo... Tobi said to Danzo "long time no see"

he wasnt just referring to the Uchiha Massacre... 



Amusing said:


> I was once convinced that Tobi was Izuna, but now Madara has said his brother is dead, and I don't think he's lying



i agree, before Madara said that about Izuna i was also convinced that Tobi had to be 1) Izuna or 2) Kagami 3) Obito


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## Seven (Mar 17, 2012)

I know this is crazy. But, somehow for future reference, I was the first one to suggest this. (At least I am pretty sure...)

Anyway. I think Tobi could be Jiraiya. Yup. Jiraiya, Ero-Sennin, Pervy Sage. Whatever you call him.  It is both logical and illogical, so I am going to list the logical reasons first.

-It would surprise Naruto
-Naruto probably wouldn't be able to fight him
-It explains why he wasn't ressurected with Edo Tensei, I am pretty sure some of his DNA would have been on Pain's weapons...
-He wasn't seen during the Kyuubi attack on Konoha
-He seemed to know quite a bit about seals and Biju
-He wanted peace. He made "Peace" by uniting all of the great nations to fight against a common enemy.

I am pretty sure everyone can think of obvious illogical reasons, but if you are drawing a blank, here are some
-Appearance
-How the heck he got a sharingan
-How he knew so much about the Uchiha's
Etc.

What does everyone else think? I mean, I know it probably isn't going to happen, but why does Tobi have to be an Uchiha? Couldn't he be a Senju?

So that's my crazy theory of the day.


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## Psychic (Mar 17, 2012)

I dont know who he is but I do know that hes butt ugly.


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## Talis (Mar 17, 2012)

If Tobito is going to happen i'll know the purpous of it, it's basically gonna teach Naruto of what he will do with Sasuke.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 18, 2012)

In one of my threads from the past week, I theorized that TOBI is in fact an old Moku-bunshin.

They don't die or revert to trees when hit, because they are for all intended purposes REAL clones of the user, that are grown from plant matter, and transmuted into physical matter.

My Theory is that as madara was dying and consumed some of Hashirama's DNA, he cast Moku-bunshin no jutsu and cloned himself with the geas to sucessfully restore him to life and finish the moons eye plan.

Their personalities are different due to Tobi living so much more than madara, AND in secret.

So, tobi IS madara in a way, but older and with the drive to restore the living one at any cost.


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## insane111 (Mar 18, 2012)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> In one of my threads from the past week, I theorized that TOBI is in fact an old Moku-bunshin



Since Izuna was confirmed dead, Madara-clone seems to be the only theory left that doesn't have huge holes in its logic. Anyone else would require some pretty big bullshitting on Kishi's part, unless it's an unknown character. 

Both options are pretty bland, but there's really nothing else left.


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## tupadre97 (Mar 18, 2012)

Tobi is obviously not Obito but I do think he found his body and took his eye which would explain why he has similar space time powers as kakashi


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## T-Bag (Mar 18, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Tobi is obviously not Obito but I do think he found his body and took his eye which would explain why he has similar space time powers as kakashi



-tobi's body is simply too old. too many wrinkles
- obitos eye was crushed


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> -tobi's body is simply too old. too many wrinkles



He's not saying he took his body, just his eye.

And who says those wrinkles are due to age, anyway?



> - shisui's eye was crushed



What does Shisui have to do with Obito?


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## T-Bag (Mar 18, 2012)

those are definitely wrinkles from old age. wrinkles. and my fault i meant obito's eye


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## Okita (Mar 18, 2012)

Hi, new poster. Thought I'd reply to this monster thread instead of making a new one.

I haven't been reading naruto for very long although I am caught up. I'm very interested in this subject, I think alot of what's going to happen later in the story is based on Tobi's identity. I've been reading these forums recently and I know there are plenty on here who know way more than i do about the manga, and I ask that you please punch holes in my theory, and maybe answer a question or 2.

First off my theory, some things I considered when arriving to it:

Susano'o is rare among Uchiha. Obviously only MS users can use it, but it's rare even among them. 

Kurama compared Sasuke's chakra to Madara's, and Sasuke brushed it off, sarcastically saying he doesn't give a crap about who that is.

Itachi, with Tobi's help, killed the Uchiha to stop a civil war that his father had plotted.


I believe Itachi will have his conversation with Sasuke, not only because they both made a big deal out of it, but because his "Protect Konoha" genjutsu that lets him act outside of ET will stop a rampaging psychopath with EMS hellbent on murdering everyone. Especially if all it takes is talk. I doubt very much that Itachi is just gonna say this and that and Sasuke will nod his head and say ok, my bad, I'm just gonna use my Amaretsu to roast marshmellows from now on.

What I think Itachi is gonna tell Sasuke, right around the same time Naruto smashes that mask, is that Tobi is their grandad, and Madara's son. Aside from my above points, to me, the reveal has to be shocking and I can't buy in with any character currently known. I don't know who Fugaku's dad was, but I can't remember him being talked about at all. Obviously if Madara had a kid it wasn't with anybody known, so maybe he had a reason to hide it. He still saw the value in having someone that could carry on his will after he died, and one day revive him. They are both great at transplanting eyes and using Hashirama dna, maybe Madara taught him that. The rarity of Susano'o would also be mitigated by the fact
both Sauce and Itachi are related to Madara.

I think Tobi wanted to get revenge on the Uchiha clan for betraying his father. After failing to destroy Konoha with Kurama, he contacted Fugaku about inciting the civil war, and later itachi about killing the clan to stop it, revealing his identity to each of them in order to get their cooperation.  This is why Itachi immediately joined his organization after the massacre. After learning Tobi's Infinite Tsukiyomi plan, he realized he had been misled, and devised several countermeasures, 2 of which were in Sasuke alone. The ameratsu trap, and teaching Sasuke how to get EMS. I think his plan was to kill Tobi with the Amaretsu, and use itachi's eyes to help defend konoha from Pain. He wasn't thinking about Kabuto ETing Madara back to life,as the ET Orochimaru peformed with the 1st and 2nd didnt look nearly as scary as ET Madara. He probably didn't count on Kabuto improving it so much.

From now I think Kabuto will lose to the brothers, Itachi will get Sasuke to help Naruto stop tobi while itachi is leaving the impure world. I don't know if he will want to kill tobi, though.
 He may see Naruto kill him and rage at his last family member dying. queue fight.

Couple questions...

I don't get the Tobito timeline, how long after he got owned by rocks did he get a bijuu and wreck shop? I think at the same age Sasuke would have whipped him, does it seem plausible he would get that strong in that amount of time?

If he's a madara clone, would he have had EMS and Rinnegan? if so, and Madara's eyes were given to Nagato why would he need to implant them in himself? why would he get blown to bits by konan and burn out an eye instead of using any of those powers to protect himself/restrain her? 

Does Tobi have MS? If so, what abilities has he displayed with it? I've seen some people mention Izanagi, but Danzo could do that.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 18, 2012)

Okita said:


> Words



Okay, two things.

Firstly, Itachi does not know Tobi's true identity.

He still refers to Tobi as "Madara", and doesn't know that the real Madara has been resurrected by Kabuto.

The only one who could possibly know who Tobi really is is Madara himself, since it seems he had plans with Tobi.

Secondly Tobi being Madara's son and Itachi/Sasuke's grandfather would basically amount to an asspull, as it has never been hinted before that such a character existed.



> Couple questions...
> 
> I don't get the Tobito timeline, how long after he got owned by rocks did he get a bijuu and wreck shop? I think at the same age Sasuke would have whipped him, does it seem plausible he would get that strong in that amount of time?



We don't know the exact time frame, but it isn't exactly out of place for someone to become extremely powerful in a relatively short amount of time.

Sasuke and Naruto are great examples of this. They've each grown to be Kage level shinobi in a matter of months.

In Obito's case, he had just awoken his Sharingan prior to his supposed death, and he himself said that he would surpass Kakashi once he awoke it. Granted this was just bravado, but the idea remains.



> If he's a madara clone, would he have had EMS and Rinnegan? if so, and Madara's eyes were given to Nagato why would he need to implant them in himself? why would he get blown to bits by konan and burn out an eye instead of using any of those powers to protect himself/restrain her?



The eyes that Tobi has are not Madara's.

The only eye he's used regularly is the right one, the one that contains the space-time jutsu.

His left Sharingan are used for Izanagi, and are swapped out after they're used up. It's possible the eyes he uses for this are the ones we see in his laboratory.



> Does Tobi have MS? If so, what abilities has he displayed with it? I've seen some people mention Izanagi, but Danzo could do that.



We don't know if Tobi has MS or whatever because we've never seen it.

People speculate that his intagibility and warping jutsu are MS jutsus because they resemble Kamui, Kakashi's MS jutsu.

This also lends itself to the Tobito theory, because people speculate that the jutsu are similar because they are both Obito's eyes.


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## son_michael (Mar 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> those are definitely wrinkles from old age. wrinkles. and my fault i meant obito's eye



no they are not. below those "wrinkles" was a young face


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 18, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> those are definitely wrinkles from old age. wrinkles.



If they're wrinkles from age why are they only on one side of his face?



> and my fault i meant obito's eye



Obito's eye probably wasn't crushed, just pinned.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 18, 2012)

Tobi is sage of six paths.End of story.
Tobi said Konan that rinnegan is rightfully his.And there are only two persons who have successfully awaken rinnegan - Madara and Sage of six paths.
And only sage can think this big of controlling the world and maintain peace.


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## Easley (Mar 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> We don't know if Tobi has MS or whatever because we've never seen it.
> 
> People speculate that his intagibility and warping jutsu are MS jutsus because they resemble Kamui, Kakashi's MS jutsu.
> 
> This also lends itself to the Tobito theory, because people speculate that the jutsu are similar because they are both Obito's eyes.


That's not a good argument really, since MS have very different powers in each eye. Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu for example. Both of Obito's eyes having space-time jutsu is unlikely. Kamui is MS but we have no proof that Tobi's warping is. It seems too powerful for a regular sharingan, though. The reason he can go intangible is unclear and no evidence of sharingan use.

I still think Tobi implanted that eye, his collection makes it possible. Uchiha candidates have no chance of surprising anyone no matter which theory you subscribe to. I hope Kishi has something better in mind.


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## Talis (Mar 18, 2012)

This might sound stupid, but could Kishi hint us something about Obito's S/T eye ''there was something in my eye moments with the liquid''? :ho


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## Saru (Mar 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> That's not a good argument really, since MS have very different powers in each eye. Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu for example. Both of Obito's eyes having space-time jutsu is unlikely. Kamui is MS but we have no proof that Tobi's warping is. It seems too powerful for a regular sharingan, though. The reason he can go intangible is unclear and no evidence of sharingan use.
> 
> I still think Tobi implanted that eye, his collection makes it possible. Uchiha candidates have no chance of surprising anyone no matter which theory you subscribe to. I hope Kishi has something better in mind.



Shisui had Kotoamatsukami in both eyes.

But that's beside my point. You say that (most) MS users have different jutsu in both eyes, but if you're in the camp of people that believe Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi, you're kind of contradicting that assertion, since Sasuke can also use his right eye to manipulate the products of his left eye's doujutsu, Amaterasu, and form Enton. That is to say that there are 3 jutsu that Sasuke can use: two in the right eye and one in the left eye. Tobi's doryoku could have similar capabilities.


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## Easley (Mar 18, 2012)

Astrαl said:


> Shisui had Kotoamatsukami in both eyes.
> 
> But that's beside my point. You say that (most) MS users have different jutsu in both eyes, but if you're in the camp of people that believe Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi, you're kind of contradicting that assertion, since Sasuke can also use his right eye to manipulate the products of his left eye's doujutsu, Amaterasu, and form Enton. That is to say that there are 3 jutsu that Sasuke can use: two in the right eye and one in the left eye. Tobi's doryoku could have similar capabilities.


I'd forgotten about Shisui but he seems to be a special case. I would be surprised if near identical MS powers are common, if only from a writing perspective. Different abilities give more variety in battle. Simply being similar is not really a solid argument, it can go either way.

We don't even know if Tobi is using MS. That's another assumption people make. His intangibility is the real mystery though, might not be a sharingan power at all.

It's certainly possible that Tobi is using Obito's eye, if it was salvaged somehow. Not his body though. Kishi pulls some weird twists but I consider his death scene to be sincere.


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## Escargon (Mar 18, 2012)

Whats this talk about Tobis wrinkles? He got the same as Mifune.

Are you telling me that Mifune is still young as ever and those wrinkles are just scars? Engineer: Alrighty then.

Btw im addicted to Burn Energy Drink (im high atm) if thats relevant to Tobis identity. But i guess hes a Mokujin (hmpf) clone, explains why he got that shit goo. Or, black Zetsu created him:S


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## Edward Nygma (Mar 18, 2012)

Tobito, bitches!

Now i just have to figure out how he survived the rock slide (Possible Oro meddling), and where/ how a Obito managed to master advanced S/T Ninjutsu in 3 years. I suppose sharingan partially explains the how, bit not the where.


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## Talis (Mar 18, 2012)

Datenshi Uchiha said:


> Tobito, bitches!
> 
> Now i just have to figure out how he survived the rock slide (Possible Oro meddling), and where/ how a Obito managed to master advanced S/T Ninjutsu in 3 years. I suppose sharingan partially explains the how, bit not the where.



The rock didn't crush his head nor his Sharingan, the proof is at the rock, look carefully to it and you will clearly see that the rock didn't pierce through his head; Link removed
Last panel the rock is just staying on it's head.
It probably did hurt enough to leave some Tobi's scars behind.
I don't know why but Kishi keeps showing only the left view of the rock, he just keeps showing 40-50% of the rock, he keeps hiding the right spot of the rock, i am sure it will be one of the main reasons for Obito's reason to survive.


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## Suigetsu (Mar 18, 2012)

He was Madara's pupil, an avatar made specifically for the Jubbi which is incomplete.
On a side not, I miss Amaretti's colorings.


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## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2012)

Obito

For shits and giggles.


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## takL (Mar 18, 2012)

tobi didnt know torne n foo but thei rfathers. he seems to be familiar with the older generations of konoha shinobis. 
he must be much older than torne, foo, Guy, kakashi and so on. 
plus his eye looks old in closeup


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## son_michael (Mar 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'd forgotten about Shisui but he seems to be a special case. I would be surprised if near identical MS powers are common, if only from a writing perspective. Different abilities give more variety in battle. Simply being similar is not really a solid argument, it can go either way.
> 
> We don't even know if Tobi is using MS. That's another assumption people make. His intangibility is the real mystery though, might not be a sharingan power at all.
> 
> It's certainly possible that Tobi is using Obito's eye, if it was salvaged somehow. Not his body though. Kishi pulls some weird twists but I consider his death scene to be sincere.





I never thought that the intangibility was from obito's sharingan, its the fact that he can suck people into another dimension. Kakashi uses kamui offensively, Madara uses it to teleport around and suck people in defensively. The jutsu's look practically identical but they are used in reverse applications. Madara also knew that kakashi's MS jutsu would have no effect on him...and that was before kakashi even cast it.


I would also like to point out that we never saw obito die. He was alive and then rocks fell and covered him. Sure we can say" obviously that person would be dead" but no...it doesn't work that way in fiction.


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## T-Bag (Mar 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> no they are not. below those "wrinkles" was a young face


uhmm young face..? wrinkles already tell you the person isnt exactly young.



First Tsurugi said:


> If they're wrinkles from age why are they only on one side of his face?



i think we've yet to see his other side of the face


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## frenchmax (Mar 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I never thought that the intangibility was from obito's sharingan, its the fact that he can suck people into another dimension. Kakashi uses kamui offensively, Madara uses it to teleport around and suck people in defensively. The jutsu's look practically identical but they are used in reverse applications. Madara also knew that kakashi's MS jutsu would have no effect on him...and that was before kakashi even cast it.
> 
> 
> I would also like to point out that we never saw obito die. He was alive and then rocks fell and covered him. Sure we can say" obviously that person would be dead" but no...it doesn't work that way in fiction.



tobi was already grown up and judging by the voice too old in the fight against minato, to be obito. Obito wouldn' t have any reason to go against the leaf, obito' s sharingan was to weak (I don' t see how his sharingan should evolve so fast, if we consider that he was able to go through the barrier that was setup to protect kushina at naruto' s birth) So I' ll give an "eventually" for obito' s body, but definatly not obito himself


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## Undead (Mar 18, 2012)

I can't believe Obito is still a candidate to some people still.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 18, 2012)

MY MY MY
DESPITE MY GIVING EVIDENCES WHY TOBI CANT BE OBITO,STILL PEOPLE ARE TAKING OBITO'S SIDE.such a sad view it is.

once again why OBITO ISNT TOBI :
when uchicha madara was revived after ages,he said "SO this is HIS doing"
it clearly means tobi is someone from his own time.not some kid who was born after madara was dead.
So it should be either his bro (unlikely) or his son (somewht probable) or his ancestors (more probable) or someone from Senju (tobirama senju seems likely)

in conclusion OBITO doesnt even qualify for being a candidate here.


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## Talis (Mar 18, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> MY MY MY
> DESPITE MY GIVING EVIDENCES WHY TOBI CANT BE OBITO,STILL PEOPLE ARE TAKING OBITO'S SIDE.such a sad view it is.
> 
> once again why OBITO ISNT TOBI :
> ...



Your just keep popping up random new characters on every reply for the Tobi candidate lol.
Long haired masked man= real Madara, it won't take any longer within 3 chapter Kabuto summons edo Madara next to him and Itachi and Madara will recognize each other.


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## frenchmax (Mar 18, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> MY MY MY
> DESPITE MY GIVING EVIDENCES WHY TOBI CANT BE OBITO,STILL PEOPLE ARE TAKING OBITO'S SIDE.such a sad view it is.
> 
> once again why OBITO ISNT TOBI :
> ...



well.....tobi (tobirama) asking kabuto how the jutsu works, which he invented himself......so no, tobirama is no candidate, plus his soul is sealed by the shinigami


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## son_michael (Mar 18, 2012)

frenchmax said:


> tobi was already grown up and judging by the voice too old in the fight against minato, to be obito. Obito wouldn' t have any reason to go against the leaf, obito' s sharingan was to weak (I don' t see how his sharingan should evolve so fast, if we consider that he was able to go through the barrier that was setup to protect kushina at naruto' s birth) So I' ll give an "eventually" for obito' s body, but definatly not obito himself



I agree that it is most likely not obito himself....simply because of how much tobi knows and how he's familiar with things of the past. In my mind, there's no doubt that tobi's warping defensive kamui is from obito's sharingan. There's no doubt that kishi has wanted us to see obito in tobi since the beginning and there's no doubt that obito's death was not concrete.


Even so, for it to be obito, brainwashed or insane w/e..would simply be awesome. For it to be anything else...would leave minimal impact and the readers wouldn't really care...its gotten to the point that whats behind the mask has to be something really crazy and all these other theories just don't meet that expectation.

I don't know...sometimes I feel like it can't be obito in control and then other times I think it is...what I'm certain of is obito is somehow involved.If not the body then definitely the eye power... but I'm sure that incomplete death scene indicates he will return.


Ill say this, if kishi is smart he will make tobi be obito because it will evoke the most response, emotion and keep us glued to the manga for more. There are lots of things that support obito and some things that don't. Kishi can easily make this whole thing make sense, regardless of all the anti tobito evidence people come up with.

here's hoping its more than just the eye power


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## insane111 (Mar 18, 2012)

Datenshi Uchiha said:


> Tobito, bitches!
> 
> Now i just have to figure out how he survived the rock slide (Possible Oro meddling), and where/ how a Obito managed to master advanced S/T Ninjutsu in 3 years. I suppose sharingan partially explains the how, bit not the where.



You forgot the part about Madara knowing who Tobi is, that was one of the larger nails in that theorys coffin.


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## GODLIKE (Mar 18, 2012)

can i ask something to the people claiming obito is tobi?

obito = kakashi's puppul right?
kakashi = minatos puppil right?

minato faced tobi and kyubi the night he died right?

how the fuck is obito tobi???


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## insane111 (Mar 18, 2012)

Eleos said:


> obito = kakashi's puppul right?
> kakashi = minatos puppil right?



No, Kakashi/Obito/Rin were all on Minato's team.

But apparently people think Obito was secretly Madara's pupil before he was crushed, or possibly before he was even born. Which is pretty funny


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## frenchmax (Mar 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I agree that it is most likely not obito himself....simply because of how much tobi knows and how he's familiar with things of the past. In my mind, there's no doubt that tobi's warping defensive kamui is from obito's sharingan. There's no doubt that kishi has wanted us to see obito in tobi since the beginning and there's no doubt that obito's death was not concrete.
> 
> 
> Even so, for it to be obito, brainwashed or insane w/e..would simply be awesome. For it to be anything else...would leave minimal impact and the readers wouldn't really care...its gotten to the point that whats behind the mask has to be something really crazy and all these other theories just don't meet that expectation.
> ...



I just reread chapter 399 in which tobi told the history between uchiha and senju, about founding konoha etc... and about how izuna willingly gave his eyes etc....I' m starting to think that tobi might well truly be izuna in the end.
I think I cannot bring concrete proofs for this but I startet asking myself a few things:

tobi said: I lost to hashirama and died, or so the villagers thought, I disapeared from their minds...We know that madara was not dead at that time and he managed somehow to get his hands on senju dna. But what if izuna was not dead either...
We know that eye transplants among uchiha just work that well. Obtaining the EMS is just more difficult because you have probably to get your "brother' s eyes to unlock it...

now my thought: Izuna was in fact blind but we know that most uchiha were for the truce with senju and turned their backs on madara. tobi says " where was all the hate for the senju, what did my brother sacrifice himself for?" 

I think madara gave his brother (who wasn' t dead) the eye of a fellow uchiha he killed out of rage so izuna could see again. Once he did so, he went against hashirama and probably izuna helped him somehow from the shadows. They collected hashirama' s dna and experimented with it. Madara having the EMS somehow managed to unlock the rinnegan but died because he was too severely wounded. before dying, they made plans about how reviving madara, making the eye of the moon plan etc... As for izuna the transplant did not go so well, that' s why he is partially made of goo, the same material zetsu is made of. The lifeforce residing within hashirama' s cells gave izuna a prolonged life (explaining why he is still alive but has wrinkels). izuna (tobi) went on by creating zetsu with shodai cells, building up his army, etc...In order to be able to be still acting from the shadows, he needed to put someone at the front and used nagato. Well, you know how the story went on.

Some of you might be asking themeselves why tobi shares a similar power to kakashi' s....well I think izuna started to collect sharingans,hoping to be able to unlock the EMS. But we know that a lot of uchiha' s tryed and failed. That probably is because you really litterally need your brothers eyes. None of all uchiha eyes were compatible with his own, so he probably tried out all powers and obito' s eye power seemed to be the more convenient for his plans. the other eyes would probably just have the only purpose to of using izanagi...

I' d just like to add that some things which are brought up by tobi and by madara seem to be 2 versions of something that 2 people saw at the same time. So tobi was definatly there....

plus, madara or tobi saying izuna died for the sake of the uchiha might not be 100% a fact, it could also be a fact justifying the mean, as to make people feel bad about it, or in order to give madara a reason for what he did....


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## Turrin (Mar 18, 2012)

Since he's Madara's underling he's obviously someone younger than Madara. Given his proficient usage of the Sharingan, the black hair,  & hatred for the Senju, he's most likely an Uchiha. The fact that he was willing to show Sasuke his face, means he probably isn't someone Sasuke would be familiar with since Sasuke would have than realized Tobi was full of crap about being Madara. He has spiky black hair and wrinkles or scares. 

To me the only characters mentioned that fulfill this criteria are: are Uchiha Setsuna, Uchiha Kagami, Uchiha Obito, i& a new character. 

I think it's also safe to assume there is a high likely hood at this point that Tobi was the student of an important Konoha Shinobi. Why? Because every single major villain in the manga follows this pattern:

Orochimaru - Hiruzen
Nagato - Jiraiya
Danzo - Tobirama 
etc..

With that in mind that only leaves Obito, Kagami, & a new character. However I feel like if Tobi was Kagami than Danzo would have recognized him from his voice or at least Kishi would have brought up the idea of Danzo maybe knowing Tobi's identity during the Kages arc, so I doubt it's Kagami, also Tobirama's team already had a major villain come from it (Danzo), so I don't think it would serve much point having another villain emerge from this team.

As for a new character, it would have to be some student from a major Konoha shinobi that has yet to have a student go evil & B, Kakashi, or Gai can recognize him, since there would be no point in his reveal if no one recognized him. 

This means as a new character he'd have to ether be a student of Hashirama, a student of Tsunade, or a student of Minato with Minato having another set of students besides Obito, Rin, & Kakashi. In the case of Minato I feel like there is no point to creating an entirely new character, when Kishi could just use Obito.

So I'm going to say as a new character Tobi would have to be Hashirama's student or Tsunade's student, both of these ideas imo could be interesting.

Tobi being Hashirama's apprentice would be a very interesting concept, since the idea of Hashirama teaching an Uchiha would be interesting and potentially Tobi on orders from Madara betraying and back stabbing Hashirama could explain how such a powerful dude actually died. It would also allow us to see more of Hashirama.

Tobi being Tsunade's student would on the other hand make sense in a number of ways to me. One would assume Tobi needs to know some medical Ninjutsu to be able to safely transplant Itachi's eyes into Sasuke's head, which of course would make sense if he was Tsunade's student. Also him recruiting Orochimaru as one of the first Akatsuki would make sense because he would have had time to get to know Orochimaru as Tsunade's student. Also Tobi's knowledge of Fuuinjutsu would make sense considering Tsunade's Uzamaki heritage. Finally the fact that Tsunade was in a coma when Tobi decided to appear to the Gokage, would also make sense timing wise since she is the only Gokage who could recognize him.

So to me Tobi is most likely ether Obito or a new character who was probably Tsunade's or Hashirama's apprentice.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 18, 2012)

frenchmax said:


> I just reread chapter 399 in which tobi told the history between uchiha and senju, about founding konoha etc... and about how izuna willingly gave his eyes etc....I' m starting to think that tobi might well truly be izuna in the end.
> I think I cannot bring concrete proofs for this but I startet asking myself a few things:
> 
> tobi said: I lost to hashirama and died, or so the villagers thought, I disapeared from their minds...We know that madara was not dead at that time and he managed somehow to get his hands on senju dna. But what if izuna was not dead either...
> ...



Dude,i too was under this impression that tobi is izuna but remember
at first edo madara says "so this is HIS doing" and then in the later stage of fight he says izuna is dead.
so tobi is someone who madara knows and madara himself denied that tobi isnt izuna.
But anyway your points make me to wonder once again..
nice theory man


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## GODLIKE (Mar 18, 2012)

insane111 said:


> No, Kakashi/Obito/Rin were all on Minato's team.
> 
> But apparently people think Obito was secretly Madara's pupil before he was crushed, or possibly before he was even born. Which is pretty funny



right... i saw messed up... obito rin and kakashi, i remember now. kakashi got his eye from obito etc. wtf was i drunk or smthing? anyway... shit happens

even like this. like you said. obito is way to young to be tobi...


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## frenchmax (Mar 18, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> Dude,i too was under this impression that tobi is izuna but remember
> at first edo madara says "so this is HIS doing" and then in the later stage of fight he says izuna is dead.
> so tobi is someone who madara knows and madara himself denied that tobi isnt izuna.
> But anyway your points make me to wonder once again..
> nice theory man



but madara saying "it must be his doing" implies IMHO that madara is well aware who was doing what. Tobi intended to have nagato use rinnei tensei "for his sake" who exactly did tobi want to revive? Consider this: most of the time, bad guys who have a partner don' t bother to revive this partner if they have themselves enough power to fullfill their plans alone. I think tobi definatly wanted to revive madara (although it is not canon). Now this wouldn't fit with the most common "bad guy" picture. Which leads me to the conclusion that there must be some deeper, eventually emotional connection. And we know the only person madara ever truly cared for was his brother, which I think goes as well the other way around.

Izuna sacrificed his eye for the sake of his clan, madara forcefully accepted because it was his brother' s will (see shisui and itachi...) But the clan turned their backs on both of them. During the uchiha massacre madara was already dead. Who else than izuna would help itachi to kill off his clan? plus collecting the sharingans would just fit in the plan..


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## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> MY MY MY
> DESPITE MY GIVING EVIDENCES WHY TOBI CANT BE OBITO,STILL PEOPLE ARE TAKING OBITO'S SIDE.such a sad view it is.
> 
> once again why OBITO ISNT TOBI :
> ...



Some people thought a ten tailed beast was impossible. Kishimoto doesn't follow logic.


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## Testier (Mar 18, 2012)

There is no way tobi can be obito. Obito give one eye to kakashi and he was shown 2 eyes in he fight with Konan.


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## GODLIKE (Mar 18, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Some people thought a ten tailed beast was impossible. Kishimoto doesn't follow logic.



well a 10 tailed beast wouldnt break the laws of alive and dead, and the laws of time... so it was possible to exist.

but obito wasnt even born when madara died, how the hell could he be tobi.

+ obito was minatos puppil right? minato wasnt so stupid not to notice obito has such strong powers, he would understand it if he was tobi. imo ofc...


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## Easley (Mar 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I never thought that the intangibility was from obito's sharingan, its the fact that he can suck people into another dimension. Kakashi uses kamui offensively, Madara uses it to teleport around and suck people in defensively. The jutsu's look practically identical but they are used in reverse applications. Madara also knew that kakashi's MS jutsu would have no effect on him...and that was before kakashi even cast it.


Okay, if you had to guess, what is the source of Tobi's intangibility? It's a very important part of the puzzle. His pocket dimension too, that place is way beyond most characters. I might be reading too much into it but most spaces like that exist outside of time in sci-fi. Tobi is not normal. Who knows how old he is. I'm fairly sure we'll get a shocking reveal.



> I would also like to point out that we never saw obito die. He was alive and then rocks fell and covered him. Sure we can say" obviously that person would be dead" but no...it doesn't work that way in fiction.


We didn't see Obito die but everything suggested that he did. He almost died under one rock and then dozens more landed on him. It's the way that scene played out, there wasn't any hint he might live. Kishi might 'fudge' the facts but I don't think so - Obito's death would never be the same. Returning as the villain destroys his character in my opinion.


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## Talis (Mar 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> We didn't see Obito die but everything suggested that he did. He almost died under one rock and then dozens more landed on him. It's the way that scene played out, there wasn't any hint he might live. Kishi might 'fudge' the facts but I don't think so - Obito's death would never be the same. Returning as the villain destroys his character in my opinion.



His head actually did survive only his body was a mess, and the big rock was guarding basically the whole body like a shield.

Anyways someone also thinking that Kishi wanted to hint us about Obito's S/T ''there was something in my eye''?


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## gabzilla (Mar 18, 2012)

Eleos said:


> well a 10 tailed beast wouldnt break the laws of alive and dead, and the laws of time... so it was possible to exist.
> 
> but obito wasnt even born when madara died, how the hell could he be tobi.
> 
> + obito was minatos puppil right? minato wasnt so stupid not to notice obito has such strong powers, he would understand it if he was tobi. imo ofc...



And what makes you think Kishimoto can't pull something out of his ass come up with something to explain it?

Evil stuff took Obito while he was dying and brainwashed him, has been using him since. 

Didn't say it wouldn't be half assed, but after Kyuubi became Naruto's pet, nothing can surprise me anymore.


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## jacamo (Mar 19, 2012)

allow me to have reminiscent moment about the people who adamantly thought that Tobi = Madara, the same people laughed at people like me when we said Madara was in the 6th coffin and that Tobi was someone else

 


now thats out of the way..... 1) Madara said Izuna died during his time 2) Madara actually KNOWS who Tobi is... base on those 2 facts we can say with 90% certainty that Tobi can not be Izuna

and i agree gabzilla... Obito could have been brainwashed so its still possible

but IMO Tobi = Uchiha Kagami (or Madara's son as some people are claming)


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## GODLIKE (Mar 19, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> And what makes you think Kishimoto can't pull something out of his ass come up with something to explain it?
> 
> Evil stuff took Obito while he was dying and brainwashed him, has been using him since.
> 
> Didn't say it wouldn't be half assed, but after Kyuubi became Naruto's pet, nothing can surprise me anymore.



well i wouldnt ever try to dare about something being impossible on a manga... that would be nonsense! its manga everything is possible, even your theory i dont deny it.

it just doesnt make any sence to me cause he was too young for madara to even knowing his existance, with the same logic madara should recognize kakashi if he ever sees him. (not 100% but it has some possibilities...)

anyways there s not that much left until we come to see his face.
the sure thing is that he is an uchiha though


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## Vice (Mar 19, 2012)

Giving it some thought, how plausible is it that Tobi could be Shisui? I'm too lazy to go back and check the manga if this theory has been officially debunked or not, I'm just throwing it out there.


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## Khazzar (Mar 19, 2012)

Madara said "The only thing my brother left me when he died are these eyes". He didnt simply state "My brother is dead".
Madara also "died",and yet,here he is. Still in the game. Revived. He even stated himself he wasnt supposed to be revived in such a way.
Also,i'll never forget what enraged Tobi the most - The fact that Nagato used his most powerful jutsu for Naruto's sake and not his own.
This could mean two things :
- He wanted to use Rinne Tensei for Madara.
- He wanted to use Rinne Tensei for himself.


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## GODLIKE (Mar 19, 2012)

Vice said:


> Giving it some thought, how plausible is it that Tobi could be Shisui? I'm too lazy to go back and check the manga if this theory has been officially debunked or not, I'm just throwing it out there.



there is already a huge post on a thread about this matter, very well writen and analyses most facts...


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## Vice (Mar 19, 2012)

Eleos said:


> there is already a huge post on a thread about this matter, very well writen and analyses most facts...



Wouldn't happen to have a link?


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## GODLIKE (Mar 19, 2012)

Vice said:


> Wouldn't happen to have a link?



sure stone cold... here you go


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## DUNGEON (Mar 19, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> And what makes you think Kishimoto can't pull something out of his ass come up with something to explain it?
> 
> Evil stuff took Obito while he was dying and brainwashed him, has been using him since.
> 
> Didn't say it wouldn't be half assed, but after Kyuubi became Naruto's pet, nothing can surprise me anymore.



So agreed with this.
a manga cant run if it doesnt contain any sort of surprises.
mangas are known to break your logic head and give you the WTF moments of your life.
i wont be surprised if tobi comes out to be naruto.. lmao


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## jacamo (Mar 19, 2012)

Vice said:


> Wouldn't happen to have a link?





Eleos said:


> sure stone cold... here you go



you guys have the wrong link!!!

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7_LreuSY3Y&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 19, 2012)

Testier said:


> There is no way tobi can be obito. Obito give one eye to kakashi and he was shown 2 eyes in he fight with Konan.



Pay closer attention to the manga, that eye was not originally his, it was just one he was using for Izanagi.



Easley said:


> We didn't see Obito die but everything suggested that he did. He almost died under one rock and then dozens more landed on him. It's the way that scene played out, there wasn't any hint he might live. Kishi might 'fudge' the facts but I don't think so - Obito's death would never be the same. Returning as the villain destroys his character in my opinion.



There's this trope in fiction called [url="tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeverFoundTheBody]Never Found the Body[/url], it allows the author to pull off a number of plot twists involving supposedly dead characters without seeming like a total asspull.

As for destroying his character, that's pretty much the point of the twist, as I see it. Having a character like Obito who was originally good become bitter and cynical like Tobi makes him a good foil for Naruto, because he was originally similar to him.


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## Talis (Mar 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Pay closer attention to the manga, that eye was not originally his, it was just one he was using for Izanagi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't forgot to add; Kakashi had freaking ninja dog summons, he could have easly traced Obito's corps at least, Kishi will show this once Tobito gets revealed, it will be revealed that Kakashi couldn't find Obito's corps for ''some'' reason..


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Don't forgot to add; Kakashi had freaking ninja dog summons, he could have easly traced Obito's corps at least, Kishi will show this once Tobito gets revealed, it will be revealed that Kakashi couldn't find Obito's corps for ''some'' reason..



We don't know when Kakashi got his ninja dog summons, and Obito's body was located in enemy territory, so it wasn't exactly as if they could go back to look for it.

I doubt they ever tried finding it personally.


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## gloomygrim (Mar 19, 2012)

My main problem with tobi being an uchiha is that his sharingan is always active like kakashi and danzos,  this leads me to think he is not an uchiha as he would be able to turn it on and off at will.

I did used to think he was shisui or madaras brother,  now im at a complete loss as to who the hell he can be.


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## Talis (Mar 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> We don't know when Kakashi got his ninja dog summons, and Obito's body was located in enemy territory, so it wasn't exactly as if they could go back to look for it.
> 
> I doubt they ever tried finding it personally.



So theres the scene when Rins death comes.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 19, 2012)

gloomygrim said:


> My main problem with tobi being an uchiha is that his sharingan is always active like kakashi and danzos,  this leads me to think he is not an uchiha as he would be able to turn it on and off at will.
> 
> I did used to think he was shisui or madaras brother,  now im at a complete loss as to who the hell he can be.



There's no proof that Tobi's Sharingan is always active, we just never see him activate it because his face is hidden behind that mask.

It seems to me that he can activate and deactivate it at will, since it's rather prominent when it is active.



loool3 said:


> So theres the scene when Rins death comes.



This is just my speculation but I think Rin may have died during the Kyuubi attack.

And since Tobi was the one behind that, well, you can probably see where I'm going with this.


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## gabzilla (Mar 19, 2012)

Eleos said:


> well i wouldnt ever try to dare about something being impossible on a manga... that would be nonsense! its manga everything is possible, even your theory i dont deny it.
> 
> it just doesnt make any sence to me cause he was too young for madara to even knowing his existance, with the same logic madara should recognize kakashi if he ever sees him. (not 100% but it has some possibilities...)
> 
> ...



What makes you think Madara is behind everything?

Could be that the EVIL something is using Madara too.


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## Almondsand (Mar 20, 2012)

*To Emphasis because... yeah this should be /thread*



First Tsurugi said:


> Superboy and Superman are still similar even if they are not identical, they have similar powers and similar appearances.


Yes, I said that but I'm guessing you are using this to emphasis my point because there is no other reason for you to address something I already brought to light. Madara and Tobi share similar characteristics to the face, at least to the portion of the face revealed to us the reader. Stevie Wonder wearing sunglasses at night can even see that Madara and Tobi share the same facial characteristics.



> Tobi's powers are _completely_ different from Madara's, the only characteristic they share is Sharingan and their ability to control the Kyuubi.



Tobi powers are not completely different from Madara being that both of their powers derive from the same Kekkai Genkai (Sharigan/Rinnegan). Both of their power comes from the same source, they use different techniques but that doesn't equate to them having a _completely_ different power. Minato witnessing Tobi being able to bend the Kyubbi will as well as showcasing other techniques concluded that he can only be Uchiha Madara, so that brings more relevance to him being a clone.




> Madara doesn't have bags like Tobi does. With that logic you might as well say he's a clone of Itachi, since he also has bags under his eyes.
> 
> The fact that the mask is still on should make it clear that Tobi looks totally different from Madara.



You know after witnessing posts from you since I joined four months ago, I believe you talk out your ass and shit from the mouth. You have no logic, you're just bringing nothing to the table but randomness. You made no point bringing up the fact Itachi have bags(which I see as facial lines) on his face, not under his eyes.  Madara and Tobi both share the same attributes to their eyes, Itachi looks completely different.



> Just because none of the other options make sense to you doesn't mean they're illogical.


I read all the theories that have been posted on this site, before I even posted my opinion on the matter. I never said they didn't make sense, I said that they weren't logical. When I mentioned that they weren't logical it's because it's true. The holes in there being a revelation of any of the characters mentioned especially the popular Tobi = Obito theory will be too cataclysmic to even save the story of the manga. I mean it will probably be fun but it will be one of the worst writing pieces in all of history of story telling, lets leave it to fan fictions. People may not like the Tobi = Madara with Zetsu/Senju cells theory but it makes perfect sense. We see from the age telling wrinkles on his face that he is definitely an older fellow, well above the age of Kakashi, whom Obito shared the same peer group with. That fact alone just shitted all over the Tobito theory but I mean keep sucking on that pipe. Just remember to rep me when I'm proven right and you ultimately wrong. I'm not going to do some hoe fuck boy shit like you did, negging me just proved you a victim.



loool3 said:


> Lol wow, you just suddenly remove the other 5 bags and count that 1 as Madara's bag, remove 6 of them and look what you get just as my sign.


What are you talking about? Once again I have to decipher everything you wrote even though it's two sentences. I don't get easily rattled by jibber jabber but I'll retort. You seem to telling me to remove six bags to get your sign? Sorry but I don't care to know your sign, but what I'm trying to get an understanding of is, exactly what is your argument? Every time you reply to a post of mine, theres no basis or direction. There is only one bag underneath Madara's eyes and Tobi's right eye. I will post pictures to give you some insight.

*Spoiler*: __ 






Look at their eyes, now answer after surveying the pictures who else besides Madara share the same facial features akin to Tobi?



Lets Look at Obito:

*Spoiler*: __ 





Nothing at all, plus why will Obito have wrinkles on his face whens he's Kakashi's age and please don't say because he was crushed by a boulder..




Kagami:


Izuna aka Worm Doo Doo:

*Spoiler*: __ 





This bul looks just like Sasuke or lets just say Sasuke looks just like dude.




Tell me who other than Madara share the same facial features as Tobi.



T-Bag said:


> WTF loool,  ppl now are saying tobi's right face doesn't look like madara's, when that's how majority of the fans got convinced he was madara???
> 
> no one ever denied the similar appeareance, but now that it's revealed he's not madara, people say his face doesn't look similar . this is the exact reason why kishi only shows one side of the face, because its  like madaras



Exactly, I mean they aren't even looking at the fact that he doesn't necessarily have to be Madara to be a clone. It seems like that's what inhibiting people to accept the most logic argument. Although I respect the fact people have their own perspectives I just wish people make sense and not argue just to open their mouths (type their post on keyboard). I mean basically Tobi is No One as he says, in his mind how can he truly call himself Madara when he's nothing but a shell of the original. His power is incomparable, the only thing he shares is the final goal. He wanted to attain his true power, which he mentions as Madara's power. Nagato was suppose to use the Rinne tensei technique on him as he mention it as a betrayal because he chose not to and instead revived the Konoha residents. Madara when Edo Tensei'd believe he was Rinne Tensei'd which brings more relevance to the fact Tobi/Madara is one in the same but also seperate. Tobi is the will of Madara, supported by Uchiha,Senju and Zetsu cells to plot for the return of his true self (Madara) and the completion of the Moon Eye Plan.


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## gloomygrim (Mar 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> There's no proof that Tobi's Sharingan is always active, we just never see him activate it because his face is hidden behind that mask.
> 
> It seems to me that he can activate and deactivate it at will, since it's rather prominent when it is active.
> 
> ...




Good point,  im only going off what we have seen and so far, specially now with the new mask, his sharingan is active all the time same with his rinnegan.  Although the chakra drain would be imense,  its fair hard to determin who he is.

The him being obito theory i cant buy into,  tobi looks to old even with the crazy aging of folks in the narutoverse lol.


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## Ezekial (Mar 20, 2012)

*Do people still think Tobi is a clone?*

I'm against this theory, personally I think he's Izuna, even though I did make a theory on the whole horcrux thingy (in my sig)

But do you guy really still think he's a clone? He's practically on par with Madara and he's certainly too strong to be Madara's underling.

Madara & Tobi:

Both have Rinnegan
Both have EMS? (MS at least)
Both have motukon?
Both are very haxxed

They are actually very close in power and Tobi's S/T makes him possibly more powerful (in conjunction with Gedo & Bijuu etc) plus he doesn't really seem to be following Madara's plan, he's certainly too powerful to be a clone.


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## Almondsand (Mar 20, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> I'm against this theory, personally I think he's Izuna, even though I did make a theory on the whole horcrux thingy (in my sig)
> 
> But do you guy really still think he's a clone? He's practically on par with Madara and he's certainly too strong to be Madara's underling.
> 
> ...



He is definitely not on par with Madara currently, he is not far behind in power though. Tobi haven't really do anything as of right now he is basically losing his battle, while Madara is soloing. Also your Izuna being Madara belief have been shitted on by Madara when he said his brother died and left him his eyes. Tobi is in some way, shape or form Madara, half of his reveal really hints at that.


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## Kali95 (Mar 25, 2012)

So, what excuse did the Obito people come up with to explain Madara knowing Tobi's identity? Is Obito a time traveler now? 
.
Hopefully they came up with something decent, I could use a good laugh.


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## Talis (Mar 25, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> He is definitely not on par with Madara currently, he is not far behind in power though. Tobi haven't really do anything as of right now he is basically losing his battle, while Madara is soloing. Also your Izuna being Madara belief have been shitted on by Madara when he said his brother died and left him his eyes. Tobi is in some way, shape or form Madara, half of his reveal really hints at that.



Such an extreme big mouth while Edo Madara has been revived, your just extremely hilarious.


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## Almondsand (Mar 28, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> So, what excuse did the Obito people come up with to explain Madara knowing Tobi's identity? Is Obito a time traveler now?
> .
> Hopefully they came up with something decent, I could use a good laugh.


 Naw they're whole basis is shit, they believe Tobi is Obito because his other side of the face have not been revealed and have a similar hairstyle that's akin to Obito's. I mean this is all they been putting up as reasonable evidence, which I mean is already amusing.




loool3 said:


> Such an extreme big mouth while Edo Madara has been revived, your just extremely hilarious.



Yeah well... suck deez nuts


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## Boom Burger (Mar 28, 2012)

Tobi is one o dem zetsu clones


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## Escargon (Mar 28, 2012)

Tobi is the former shell of himself.

Tobi talks shit about Konoha but not Hiruzen Sarutobi.

The whole Konoha gang is going to Tobi meaning that the face will shock them all.

Yes, Tobi is Hiruzen Sarutobi and he created a Zetsu body with Madaras DNA. No wonder Kabuto doesnt show much respect to Tobi.

....D:


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## Talis (Mar 28, 2012)

this one
Orochimaru and Kabuto used Obito's Sharingan somehow to reveal the Uchiha's stone meanwhile the whole history is obviously saved in Tobito's mind.

Just a new part for the Tobito theory.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 28, 2012)

Boom Burger said:


> Tobi is one o dem zetsu clones



kisame himself said that clone can be controlled remotely.now how can a dead man(madara) control his own clone?


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## Powerful Lord (Mar 28, 2012)

I remember in a other forum somebody saying that maybe Tobi's from the Uzumaki clan with such reasons as:

-He has an whirlpool, the uzumakis are from the whirlpools land and have whirlpools as symbols.

-He knows how to implant eyes, he could have done it to himself

-He knew Nagato from the formers childhood and gave him the Rinegan, so he gave it to him when he was still a child.

There were other better explanations too, but i don't remember them right now.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Sasuke as your big brother I will always protect you no matter what
> Orochimaru and Kabuto used Obito's Sharingan somehow to reveal the Uchiha's stone meanwhile the whole history is obviously saved in Tobito's mind.
> 
> Just a new part for the Tobito theory.



Kabuto himself said they didn't read the tablet, but merely formulated a hypothesis about what information it contained.

Tobi almost certainly knows what he knows because he read it off the tablet, however.


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## son_michael (Mar 28, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Kabuto himself said they didn't read the tablet, but merely formulated a hypothesis about what information it contained.
> 
> Tobi almost certainly knows what he knows because he read it off the tablet, however.



kind of another obstacle to tobi being obito in control since there 's no way obito would have access to that shrine as a young child.

but if not obito's mind, then who? The suspense is killing me


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## Saru (Mar 28, 2012)

Boom Burger said:


> Tobi is one o dem zetsu clones



Then who is calling the shots? Doesn't make sense for a clone to wear a mask at this point either.


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 29, 2012)

son_michael said:


> kind of another obstacle to tobi being obito in control since there 's no way obito would have access to that shrine as a young child.
> 
> but if not obito's mind, then who? The suspense is killing me



He didn't have Sharingan as a child, so even if he knew about it he wouldn't have been able to read it anyway. Once he obtained his space/time jutsu and took on the guise of Tobi, however, he could theoretically have read the tablet at any time.


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 29, 2012)

Tobi identity is....


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Uchiha ancestor  




I will not going to change it. I am very positive in my opinion.


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## jacamo (Mar 29, 2012)

Tobi is


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## Powerful Lord (Mar 29, 2012)

Lol


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## Ezekial (Mar 29, 2012)

Tobi is Izuna, it's a fact, all the evidence points to him... 

- "My eyes to begin with" i.e, Izuna's MS + Madara's MS = EMS then Rinnegan, then Madara to Nagato back to Izuna.

- Same height & weight as Izuna.

- Same eye and brow

- The way Tobi squeezed his arm when telling Sasuke about his eyes & Madara

- He's the only one who could match Madara's strength and knowledge


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## Khazzar (Mar 29, 2012)

*Why i belive Tobi is Uchiha Izuna..*                                                                    and also why i strongly belive he  is  not a "clone",a "leftover",a "jutsu" or creation of some sort that   Madara himself created...



There are several reasons for me to think this and i'll share them with fellow members :

- We dont have any proof whatsoever that Izuna died,we can belive only   what Tobi said. Or what Madara said. Or can we? We also saw the pannel in which Shisui   willingly gave his eyes to Itachi and still lived ( he even had 1 eye   gouged out by Danzou before ). Izuna could have easily lived,taken   Madara's eyes and vice-versa and kept all this in secret because the   Senju were the victors over Uchihas. It is also a perfect strategy in   the long run,as both brothers gained immortality with the  transplant,esspecialy since one of them or both,gained Hashirama's  powers.

- First of all,the connection between Tobi and Sasuke from the very   start is a special one,not to Sasuke,but to Tobi,Sasuke is special not   only because of his eyes. It may be because Sasuke is "a younger   brother" as well. Like Tobi is to Madara. And has same or better chances   to develop the highest Douryoku powers like Tobi did.

- Sasuke was lesser in name compared to Itachi,was he not? Itachi was   the famous one,Sasuke always chased him. Same could be said for Izuna,he   was lesser in name and fame then notorius Uchiha Madara,but is just as   special in blood, if not even more.

- Tobi knows everything about Madara,ancient times, about mighty Rikoudo   Sennin,his sons and their descendants,the Senju and Uchiha. He MUST be   old enough to know all this. He can't be Obito,as he faced Minato  while  Obito was still a child.

- We know that Madara didnt die at the Valley of the end,we know that he   participated in killing the clan with Itachi. Itachi came to Madara   when he joined Akatsuki and trained with him,Tobi appeared publicly when  an Akatsuki member was lost. Tobi said he managed to keep few things *EVEN FROM ITACHI*.  I think he meant to say that Itachi couldnt tell the difference between  him and Madara. Tobi simply  assumed Madara's role when Madara was  killed and we now *KNOW* it wasnt against Hashirama, a century ago. 

*The most important thing because of which i belive Tobi can't be a   "clone" of Madara is simply because he has a personality of his own. We   already saw that Madara's personality is completly different. 
Madara is cocky,allmighty villain. He has only 1 straight path. That of   power,path of directness. The first time he appeared,he already gave us   alot of information.
Tobi on the other hand is mysterious,versatile,lord of lies,thief,bastard,sneaky and most likely insane*. 

*Note that when Itachi first spoke of Madara to Sasuke,he had more then few interesting things to share :
Link removed

- Itachi feels the need to discover the most important part about the myth of Madara and his eyes - *his younger brother Izuna*.    After all,the eyes cant be as powerful without the brother,can they?    Thus, with Eyo Mangekyo Sharingan,they are one and the same,in a    specific way,ofcourse.

Now that we know that one can indeed survive even after the   transplant,we can assume why Tobi lied about it in the first place. To   hide his existence to the world.




_Also see the similarity : Itachi was the fancy one,the powerful   one,direct and famous/infamous ( only in a good way ),just like Madara is. 
While Sasuke is insane,mysterious ( you dont actually know which side he will take ) and has tremendeous desire for power._


Important panel,very important panel actualy :

Link removed


With their powers combined, ( Madara and Izuna ) they awakened Rin'negan   in Nagato. It was supposed to be used for Tobi's purposes,probably to   revive Madara.
We have yet to learn how Madara actually died,which will give us the   answers we seek,but so far, Tobi = Izuna makes alot of sense.

Let's have another look on our Tobi,shall we?

- When Tobi first started using his Douryoku,he constantly spammed his  Sharingan jutsu. We've discovered that Sharingan can be properly used  only by Uchiha themselves,not the other shinobi or clans.
Kakashi is the proof of this even though he is also distantly related to  the creators of the village,like Senju and Uzumaki. Senju clan  dispersed into minor clans over time,no? So did their "genes" if i am  not mistaken. This is something that happens in real life as well.  Danzou could be another example as a chakra beast and powerful  shinobi,his chakra was quickly drained while using the Sharingan,even  though he had Hashirama's genes implanted as well.
*This implies Tobi is most likely an Uchiha*.
- We were told that "Rikoudo is the one that has both Uchiha and Senju  genes combined. This excludes the Uzumaki clan,even though they were  related to the Senju. They were chosen to be Bijuu hosts due to their  remarkable lifespan,bodies and sealing knowledge. These reasons were the  only mentioned thus far.
*Tobi is the second Rikoudo,as stated by himself. Why? Because he  holds the eye power. Eye power alone secured his wellbeing,not body  power,thus,he can't be an Uzumaki. He stole "Hashirama's" cells,not  cells of an Uzumaki member*.
- Allthough Tobi admires the Rin'negan and it's powers,he never gave up  his Sharingan eye. This is what an Uchiha would do. Tobi's sole purpose  thus far is to prove the Rikoudo was wrong to chose the younger son over  older one. He belives that peace can be achieved by sheer strenght and  power,not love. He is more then confident in eye power alone and  strongly belives none can stand in it's path.
*Tobi's ultimate goal is Mugen "Tsukuyomi",a power of the Uchiha clan.  He plans to use the Rin'negan powers to gain the ultimate  chakra,nothing more. He considers Rin'negan a "Tool" that is more suited  for war,nothing more. Sharingan is what he considers to be "True power"  of the Uchiha clan. And thus,he will ultimately use a Sharingan jutsu  to achieve peace,not Rin'negan.


Conclusion :
This story is mainly focused on "Bonds". The strongest Bond in this  series is that of brothers. Like Itachi and Sasuke,Naruto and Sasuke  (Naruto views Sasuke as his brother),Madara and Izuna.
Tobi is most likely Uchiha Izuna. Brother of a legend,an ideal,Uchiha  Madara. He is as old as Madara,experienced as Madara,he shares the same  power like him and most importantly - THE SAME GOAL.*
*If Tobi is anyone other then Izuna ( meaning,i was wrong and wasted alot   of time by writing all this ),it will be very difficult for Kishimoto   to connect him to the story. Izuna is already heavily connected,as he   represents the bonds between brothers that we already experienced   through Itachi and Sasuke.*


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## Crizo (Mar 29, 2012)

Tobi is clearly Naruto.
/thread


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## Talis (Mar 29, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Kabuto himself said they didn't read the tablet, but merely formulated a hypothesis about what information it contained.
> 
> Tobi almost certainly knows what he knows because he read it off the tablet, however.



They probably used Genjutsu or something on him to make it read the stone after it they did some crazy mind reads.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 29, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> Tobi identity is....
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



now this is what i was thinking lately..
out of all of them,only elder uchicha seems to possess rinnegan.
elder uchicha wanted to own wht his father used to own (control on world and juubi) because he thought he deserved sage's will more than anyone.


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## Talis (Mar 29, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> now this is what i was thinking lately..
> out of all of them,only elder uchicha seems to possess rinnegan.
> elder uchicha wanted to own wht his father used to own (control on world and juubi) because he thought he deserved sage's will more than anyone.



It can't be the elder son, would be toooooo stupid since he is Madara v2 and younger son Hashirama v2.
If Kishi wanted to go such way he wouldn't have involved Hashir/Mada.


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 29, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> now this is what i was thinking lately..
> out of all of them,only elder uchicha seems to possess rinnegan.
> elder uchicha wanted to own wht his father used to own (control on world and juubi) because he thought he deserved sage's will more than anyone.



bingo. also, he felt jealous and harted after his father pick his younger son to carry his goals. Everybody remembers the younger son but not the oldest.

Tobi did these things because he want to destroy his father's/younger brother  goals which is to bring peace to the ninja world. 

He want to bring hate and war.

Not only my theory make sense but it fits the theme of Naruto.





> It can't be the elder son, would be toooooo stupid since he is Madara v2 and younger son Hashirama v2.
> If Kishi wanted to go such way he wouldn't have involved Hashir/Mada.



No. 
the elder son is the ancestor of the Uchiha clan. So he isn't related to Hashirmama.

The reason why Ksish bring Hashir/Mada because the HISTORY of the Senju and the Uchicha clan.  

Peace vs. War.   ....Will of Fire vs. Ciricle of Hatred since the Elder Son fought against the younger son which is the Senju. 

It makes sense than Obtio and Izuna which there is no way that they haven't meet Hashirama.

The Obtio theory already dead and Izuna is Tobi destroy by Madara's confirmation when he talk about his brother.  If he is Tobi, then why Madara said Izuna than "Tobi"? Plus, his eyes were puck out.

He manipulate Sasuke, Itachi, and probably Madara to bring the circle of hatred continue in the ninja world because he was jealous at his younger brother.


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## Talis (Mar 29, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> bingo. also, he felt jealous and harted after his father pick his younger son to carry his goals. Everybody remembers the younger son but not the oldest.
> 
> Tobi did these things because he want to destroy his father's/younger brother  goals which is to bring peace to the ninja world.
> 
> ...



Sigh, you know that guy lived like 1000 years ago right?
Of course you can start assumptions like Hashirama mommy or Madaras grandpa used Rinne-Tensei on him but thats just way to random.
It must be someone which we've seen already around/after Madara's time at least.
And the fact that Kishi keeps hinting us Tobi to Madara/Obito/Shisui/RS means that he wants to surprise us by making it one of them.


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 29, 2012)

> Sigh, you know that guy lived like 1000 years ago right?
> Of course you can start assumptions like Hashirama mommy or Madaras grandpa used Rinne-Tensei on him but thats just way to random.



How it is random? It is pretty oblivious.
Yes, I know he lives like 1,000 years ago. He proably use Hashirama's cells, Uzumaki's healing abilities, or his father's cells  consider he is the ancestor of both Uchiha and Senju. 



> It must be someone which we've seen already around/after Madara's time at least.



Like what? Izuna. the "blind" Izuna died. He never meet Hashirama nor he live when Konohagkure founded. The Elder Uchiha defiantly was here around the time. He is knows so much about Madara's family, Uchihas, Senju, Hashirama, etc.



> And the fact that Kishi keeps hinting us Tobi to Madara/Obito/Shisui/RS means that he wants to surprise us by making it one of them.



It isn't Obito nor Shisui. Obito wasn't around when madara or Hashirama alive. He died at the age of 13.
Shisui was Itachi's best friend. Itachi kills him to awake the Mangekyō Sharingan.

The Elder Uchiha wants hatred continuing  the ninja world. He wants to destroy his father and younger brother's goal which is peace to the ninja world because his jealously.


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## The Prodigy (Mar 29, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> Like what? Izuna. the "blind" Izuna died. He never meet Hashirama nor he live when Konohagkure founded. The Elder Uchiha defiantly was here around the time. He is knows so much about Madara's family, Uchihas, Senju, Hashirama, etc.



Izuna did meet Hashirama actually. Remember, Madara was the Uchiha clan leader and the Uchiha fought the Senju many times before Madara had even gone blind. Meaning Madara most likely fought Hashirama, while Izuna probably fought Tobirama. And considering in war everything is chaotic, most likely Izuna and Hashirama had crossed paths at least once. Izuna and Madara were also equals in every way possible up until Madara went blind.


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 29, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Izuna did meet Hashirama actually. Remember, Madara was the Uchiha clan leader and the Uchiha fought the Senju many times before Madara had even gone blind. Meaning Madara most likely fought Hashirama, while Izuna probably fought Tobirama. And considering in war everything is chaotic, most likely Izuna and Hashirama had crossed paths at least once. Izuna and Madara were also equals in every way possible up until Madara went blind.



You right. 

I forgot that part but he wasn't around when Uchiha and the Senju clan decided to end their rivarly and want peace; when Konohagakure founded; when the Uchiha turn back at Madara because he fear that Hashirama, now first hokage,  will wipe the Uchiha clan away; the Madara vs. Hashirama fight.


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## DUNGEON (Mar 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Sigh, you know that guy lived like 1000 years ago right?
> Of course you can start assumptions like Hashirama mommy or Madaras grandpa used Rinne-Tensei on him but thats just way to random.
> It must be someone which we've seen already around/after Madara's time at least.
> And the fact that Kishi keeps hinting us Tobi to Madara/Obito/Shisui/RS means that he wants to surprise us by making it one of them.


Zetsu is the trump card here.
maybe zetsu transformed the elder son into something that can never die/degrade.
and due to the influence of senju clan (we can expect hashirama's ancestors were equally stronger) tobi couldnt carry out what he wanted and as soon as senju clan fell,he became active and started to gather the tailed beasts. 
Also rinnegan was his property (like he said to konan) and only sage's elder son has been told to wield rinnegan.


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## Talis (Mar 29, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> *Like what? Izuna. the "blind" Izuna died. He never meet Hashirama nor he live when Konohagkure founded. The Elder Uchiha defiantly was here around the time. He is knows so much about Madara's family, Uchihas, Senju, Hashirama, etc.
> *
> 
> 
> ...



So you say that the elder son had more chance of knowing Hashirama compared to Izuna?
wt.f troll much?


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## Talis (Mar 29, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> Zetsu is the trump card here.
> maybe zetsu transformed the elder son into something that can never die/degrade.
> and due to the influence of senju clan (we can expect hashirama's ancestors were equally stronger) tobi couldnt carry out what he wanted and as soon as senju clan fell,he became active and started to gather the tailed beasts.
> Also rinnegan was his property (like he said to konan) and only sage's elder son has been told to wield rinnegan.



The only sensetence i see in elder son being Tobi is his shape of eye which looks likes a S/T icon but to bad he has a normal Sharingan.

Zetsu called Tobi a ''good boy'', why would he call som1 like that which is probably some 100/500 years older then himself.

And like i said before, Tobi being Elder/younger son is some impossible thing.
It will litteraly turn into a Madara vs Hashirama story v2.
If Kishi wold have gone that way he would have made Tobi just the real Madara.


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## Plot Hole (Mar 29, 2012)

I am bookmarking this page. I still stand that Tobi is Obito or most likly a non Uchiha seeing as he can never turn of his eyes.


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## Tobirama Senju (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm with the Izuna theory, As other people have mentioned before me so I'll spare u and my self another few mins. It just sounds most logical to me and I actually WANT Tobi to be Izuna >.<


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## First Tsurugi (Mar 29, 2012)

loool3 said:


> They probably used Genjutsu or something on him to make it read the stone after it they did some crazy mind reads.



Why would "they" need to genjutsu him to do it?

It would be as simple as telling him "There's a tablet under the Uchiha shrine, go read it to learn the truth of the Uchiha clan."

And then, just like Sasuke, he would do it.


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## The Prodigy (Mar 30, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> You right.
> 
> I forgot that part but he wasn't around when Uchiha and the Senju clan decided to end their rivarly and want peace; when Konohagakure founded; when the Uchiha turn back at Madara because he fear that Hashirama, now first hokage,  will wipe the Uchiha clan away; the Madara vs. Hashirama fight.



Actually Izuna was around during the Uchiha - Senju peace treaty. Remember it was AFTER the peace treaty when Madara wanted to attack and break the treaty that the Uchiha betrayed him because of what they saw as Madara's thirst and hunger for war and power. Izuna was said to have died while in battle, shortly after losing his eyes. 

But c'mon who would fight without eyes? Why would Izuna fight without his eyes? Why would Madara LET Izuna fight without his eyes? Could you even imagine him allowing Izuna to do that? Izuna being angry towards the Uchiha for betraying Madara is definitely plausible, as Izuna basically gave up his power, reputation, and light the very moment he gave Madara his eyes.


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 30, 2012)

loool3 said:


> So you say that the elder son had more chance of knowing Hashirama compared to Izuna?
> wt.f troll much?



Yes. It makes no sense that Izuna is Tobi. A few chapters ago Madara mention his brother. Why he talk about his brother when "Tobi" is fighting against Nartuo if you claim that Tobi is Izuna?
being thrown off his body, as well as smoke?

Elder son=Tobi.



Prodigy94 said:


> *Actually Izuna was around during the Uchiha - Senju peace treaty. Remember it was AFTER the peace treaty when Madara wanted to attack and break the treaty that the Uchiha betrayed him because of what they saw as Madara's thirst and hunger for war and power. Izuna was said to have died while in battle, shortly after losing his eyes. *



When was that? 
So you are saying that Izuna was alive until after Senju peace but the manga said that he died while in *BATTLE *. Even if he was alive, then the manga should said that *MADARA AND IZUNA LEFT THE UCHIHA BECAUSE THEIR PEOPLE TURN AGAINST THEM .*

He died before the Senju treaty.



loool3 said:


> But c'mon who would fight without eyes? Why would Izuna fight without his eyes? Why would Madara LET Izuna fight without his eyes? Could you even imagine him allowing Izuna to do that? _*Izuna being angry towards the Uchiha for betraying Madara is definitely plausible, as Izuna basically gave up his power, reputation, and light the very moment he gave Madara his eyes.*_



How? Madara took his brother Izuna eyes _* BY FORCE*_  so he can continuing to fight to protect his clan. He's a warlord. He don't care if he have to by force, as long he fights. He is the leader of his clan.

being thrown off his body, as well as smoke?
being thrown off his body, as well as smoke?

........ this
being thrown off his body, as well as smoke?


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 30, 2012)

There is the history of the Elder Son to support my theory:
being thrown off his body, as well as smoke?
being thrown off his body, as well as smoke?

Same reason why Madara and Hashirama fight....it was fate because the Cursed of Hatred.

This is why Naruto will be the ninja to change it. To change the ninja way since its birth of the ninja village.

He will destroy the Curse of Hatred.


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 30, 2012)

How he survive over 1,000 years....
1. Zetsu because he have harashirama cells. 
2. Uzmaki( their healing abilities) or Senju (their regeneration abilities) Plus, they are both related.
maybe Sage of the Six Paths DNA.
something related to the Senju because he has the Rinnegan


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## Palpatine (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm still holding out for the 'tailless Juubi' theory.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Mar 31, 2012)

Kishi already tell us who is the man behind the Mask.



Next chapter title: Madara Uchiha.

I know Uchiha Madara have been revived by Kabuto via Edo Tensei but i still believe he is some kind of Madara.


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## Khazzar (Mar 31, 2012)

JCRUYFF said:


> Kishi already tell us who is the man behind the Mask.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He has a personality of his own and thus,he can't be Madara. He is a person,a character like any other. Already there's much difference between him and Madara character-wise. So far,they only share the same goal.


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## jacamo (Mar 31, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> He has a personality of his own and thus,he can't be Madara. He is a person,a character like any other. Already there's much difference between him and Madara character-wise. So far,they only share the same goal.



precisely

Tobi has to be Izuna or Kagami


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## Talis (Mar 31, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> Yes. It makes no sense that Izuna is Tobi. A few chapters ago Madara mention his brother. Why he talk about his brother when "Tobi" is fighting against Nartuo if you claim that Tobi is Izuna?
> 4
> 
> Elder son=Tobi.
> ...



That last reply isn't mine.


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## Talis (Mar 31, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> How he survive over 1,000 years....
> 1. Zetsu because he have harashirama cells.
> 2. Uzmaki( their healing abilities) or Senju (their regeneration abilities) Plus, they are both related.
> maybe Sage of the Six Paths DNA.
> something related to the Senju because he has the Rinnegan



RS himself died even he possesed every DNA...


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## Khazzar (Mar 31, 2012)

It's preety clear Tobi is Madara's brother. Madara would make such a plan ONLY with his brother. Look at how important is the bond of brothers to Kishimoto.

4


Also Tobi said quite clearly that Nagato's Rin'negan is his own. This may be the only thing he didnt lie about.

It's only natural. Madara took his eyes,these eyes later became the Rin'negan. It was up to Tobi to take over once Madara died and so he did. They needed a host for these eyes - Nagato. Nagato was supposed to use their power to bring Madara back.

Every powerful jutsu has a cost. So Rinne Tensei possibly kills the user. They wanted to sacrifice Nagato to revive Madara.

So the eyes were indeed - Tobi's,because Madara took his eyes when he went blind and gained EMS. He took Hashi's DNA and developed Rin'negan just before he died.


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## Talis (Mar 31, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> It's preety clear Tobi is Madara's brother. Madara would make such a plan ONLY with his brother. Look at how important is the bond of brothers to Kishimoto.
> 
> 4
> 
> ...



Orrrr, Tobi was just acting like Madara and said that the Rinnegan was his. (Madara's)...


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## The Prodigy (Mar 31, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> When was that?
> So you are saying that Izuna was alive until after Senju peace but the manga said that he died while in *BATTLE *. Even if he was alive, then the manga should said that *MADARA AND IZUNA LEFT THE UCHIHA BECAUSE THEIR PEOPLE TURN AGAINST THEM .*
> 
> He died before the Senju treaty.



There is lies the twist. Would Madara LET Izuna fight in battle with no eyes? Would Izuna willingly fight on the battlefield knowing he is at a massive handicap? Everything about Izuna died after he had given Madara his eyes, this includes his eyesight, power, and reputation.



> How? Madara took his brother Izuna eyes _* BY FORCE*_  so he can continuing to fight to protect his clan. He's a warlord. He don't care if he have to by force, as long he fights. He is the leader of his clan.
> 
> 4
> 4
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Read Izuna's data book. 



> Top section
> 
> Main text
> 
> ...


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 31, 2012)

*sigh*
It can't be Izuna. Your evidence to support that Izuna  didn't prove that he is Tobi.  

*There is lies the twist. Would Madara LET Izuna fight in battle with no eyes? Would Izuna willingly fight on the battlefield knowing he is at a massive handicap? Everything about Izuna died after he had given Madara his eyes, this includes his eyesight, power, and reputation.*

Oh Tobi tells lies about Itachi the Uchiha massacre?  I know you believe that because he is a villain but he didn't twist any lies. Izuna even don't have any plot relevance. He died in battle.  

Madara did it by force which he said *IN THE MANGA*. You can't go by the databook because it isn't the manga. The databook is another extra information that the manga do not tell about characters,etc.  Manga is STILL THE SOURCE. 


Sasuke:You stole your brother eyes Just to make yourself famous

Tobi:I did but only to gain the power I need to protect the clan 

Sasuke: Protect them

Tobi: As our fame and reputation spread,  our enemines increased

Tobi: In an era of relenting war, his eyes were _saracifce_ (IN HIS perspective) for the sake of protecting his brethren from outside threats, like the Senju.  It was never about fame. 

When I mean his perspective, I mean he his eyes were meant to be saracifce in order to protect the clan as he is the leader of the Uchiha clan. 

the first page
ALL RIGHT THERE ...PRINTED.

This is* Itachi's version* about Madara and Izuna

the first page
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


I know that Itachi *DON'T LIE*.   Madara took his eyes by _*FORCE*_. 

I already explain why it can't be Izuna. What reason why he use the mask in the first place if that's Madara's brother. Madara is dead too and he didn't wear a mask. Plus, Madara was mentioning his brother in chapter 572. He could have said Tobi. 

I am sticking Elder Uchiha=Tobi theory.


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 31, 2012)

So are you going by Itachi's  which he said it was stolen. I give you statements in the manga.

There is no way that Izuna is Tobi. He hardly have any plot relevance to the story and theme of Naruto which is about peace and love against the old ninja way.  ...Will of Fire?


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## Talis (Mar 31, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> So are you going by Itachi's  which he said it was stolen. I give you statements in the manga.
> 
> There is no way that Izuna is Tobi. He hardly have any plot relevance to the story and theme of Naruto which is about peace and love against the old ninja way.  ...Will of Fire?



Your saying that nice but you realise the elder son has nothing to do with these also right?


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## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 31, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Your saying that nice but you realise the elder son has nothing to do with these also right?



He does have relevance.

He and his younger brother started the cursed of hatred. remember the story of the sage of the six path and his sons?

Elder son's legacy carry on to Madara and Sasuke since they have a grudge over  Konohagakure...The Leaf Village.....Harashirma's legacy.

The Elder Uchicha and the Elder Senju fight are relevant because they are foreshadowing the Nartuo vs. Sasuke fight which Tobi said it was fate beacause Naruto is the carrying the Will of Fire , not to mention a relative to the Senju clan, and Sasuke is carrying the Cursed of Hatred, of course an Uchiha.

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

The theme of Naruto is really about peace vs. the old ninja way since from the beginning of the ninja world.


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## Escargon (Mar 31, 2012)

Tobi and Madara got the same face.

Tobi is a man that propably implanted Madaras face to gain some unknown power. Tobi propably died during some part of this manga but somehow tricked death, thats why hes a former shell of himself, made of Zetsu crap and got Madaras face implanted with Hashirama cells to stay alive.

The upper half of his face is propably Madaras while the under is propably someone we know. It can even be Hiruzen Sarutobi. I dont think he got two faces, that would be too disappointing. And the shipuuden proved that both eyes got the same eyesacks.

Explains why he got Madaras upper face and black hair. The face there under could be someone else. 

Kishi shadowed half of his face for unknown reason and you might ask why the hell doesnt Kishi want to show Tobis mouth? 

And well, if you think im talking bullshit, watch this picture here.

Thats Tobi to the left and Madara to the right. Now start imagining Tobi. Madaras upper face and Hiruzens beard there down. Lol.


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## Talis (Mar 31, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tobi and Madara got the same face.
> 
> Tobi is a man that propably implanted Madaras face to gain some unknown power. Tobi propably died during some part of this manga but somehow tricked death, thats why hes a former shell of himself, made of Zetsu crap and got Madaras face implanted with Hashirama cells to stay alive.
> 
> ...



Explain my sign, i didn't do anything beside removing the ''bags''. 
And anyways the clone crap wouldn't work since clones doesn't age right?


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## The Prodigy (Mar 31, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> He does have relevance.
> 
> He and his younger brother started the cursed of hatred. remember the story of the sage of the six path and his sons?
> 
> ...



Think about this. Tobi felt comfortable showing his face to Sasuke. And Madara is known through the shinobi world as the Uchiha clan leader who was truly powerful. Tobi needed Madara's name, which is how he enticed war in the first place. Tobi revealed his face to Akatsuki members shortly before war began to gain their trust. Now obviously Tobi must be a person who played a BIG role in the past for Akatsuki members to be surprised and have faith in their leader. Tobi being a Madara clone of the sorts is out because then what's the point in the mask. We can automatically rule out Obito and Kagami didn't really play much of a role.

However, Izuna Uchiha was Madara's right hand man. They were actually equals and constantly fought each other to get stronger. Izuna alongside Madara fought against the Senju multiple times. He was truly a man who would be greatly praised, yet he still comes short in comparison to Madara, why? Because Madara was the clan leader, meaning Izuna had the backseat to his older brother. Now to say any of the Akatsuki members knew who or what the elder son of the sage looked like is crazy when your comparing him to Izuna who was known as Madara's equal and younger brother. 

My question how is the elder son of the sage more relevant than Izuna? Think about this also. All shinobi thought of the sage of 6 paths to be a legend and a myth, wouldn't they also think the same of both the younger and the elder son? Whereas Izuna was actually known as Madara's equal among the Uchiha clan and the Tsuchikage Oonoki would also have known of Izuna seeing as how he also fought in the clan wars/shinobi wars. 

Yes, I understand that the elder son started the chain of hatred since he was the ancestor of Uchiha but that chain of hatred is still continuing and it certainly didn't end nor is contiuing through the elder son. He was the chains beginning, not the chain's end.


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## Talis (Mar 31, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Think about this. Tobi felt comfortable showing his face to Sasuke. And Madara is known through the shinobi world as the Uchiha clan leader who was truly powerful. Tobi needed Madara's name, which is how he enticed war in the first place. Tobi revealed his face to Akatsuki members shortly before war began to gain their trust. Now obviously Tobi must be a person who played a BIG role in the past for Akatsuki members to be surprised and have faith in their leader. Tobi being a Madara clone of the sorts is out because then what's the point in the mask. We can automatically rule out Obito and Kagami didn't really play much of a role.
> 
> However, Izuna Uchiha was Madara's right hand man. They were actually equals and constantly fought each other to get stronger. Izuna alongside Madara fought against the Senju multiple times. He was truly a man who would be greatly praised, yet he still comes short in comparison to Madara, why? Because Madara was the clan leader, meaning Izuna had the backseat to his older brother. Now to say any of the Akatsuki members knew who or what the elder son of the sage looked like is crazy when your comparing him to Izuna who was known as Madara's equal and younger brother.
> 
> ...


You can keep the Obito and Kagami theory in here you can put out Izuna since he's confirmed to be death by Madara by himself.


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## The Prodigy (Mar 31, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You can keep the Obito and Kagami theory in here you can put out Izuna since he's confirmed to be death by Madara by himself.



Kagami Uchiha is really no one special honestly. Maybe if he was friends or comarades with important shinobi but seeing as how all those comrades are dead now he really is irrelevant. And we saw Obito get crushed, so he is also a non facotr.

Izuna, Madara said was dead, than why hasn't he been brought back yet. We know in this manga not to trust what characters say entirely. Case in point Itachi saying he sensed Kabuto when he was under his control now changing his statement to it was Nagato. Izuna has an extreme amount of merit as he was only mentioned in this manga by 3 people Itachi, Tobi, and Madara yet he was known by many more.


----------



## Talis (Mar 31, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Kagami Uchiha is really no one special honestly. Maybe if he was friends or comarades with important shinobi but seeing as how all those comrades are dead now he really is irrelevant. And we saw Obito get crushed, so he is also a non facotr.
> 
> Izuna, Madara said was dead, than why hasn't he been brought back yet. We know in this manga not to trust what characters say entirely. Case in point Itachi saying he sensed Kabuto when he was under his control now changing his statement to it was Nagato. Izuna has an extreme amount of merit as he was only mentioned in this manga by 3 people Itachi, Tobi, and Madara yet he was known by many more.



Man this reply reminds me too ''Madara wasn't in the 6th coffin'' thread. 
Clearly confirmed yet not accepting.


----------



## The Prodigy (Mar 31, 2012)

Except my point has validation. We were shown Madara in the 6th coffin and Madara coming out of it and making his debut. Whereas Izuna being dead was a flashback image and Madaras words against it. When you really think about it Itachi should really be a sensor as well


----------



## Pocket4Miracles (Mar 31, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tobi and Madara got the same face.
> 
> Tobi is a man that propably implanted Madaras face to gain some unknown power. Tobi propably died during some part of this manga but somehow tricked death, thats why hes a former shell of himself, made of Zetsu crap and got Madaras face implanted with Hashirama cells to stay alive.
> 
> ...



All Uchiha's eyes looks similar. 
page

It is confirm that Tobi is or not like Madara from the recent chapters.  

We cannot figure out by comparing two illustrations. 

Besides, his eyes are completely aging.
page


----------



## Pocket4Miracles (Apr 1, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Think about this. Tobi felt comfortable showing his face to Sasuke. And Madara is known through the shinobi world as the Uchiha clan leader who was truly powerful. Tobi needed Madara's name, which is how he enticed war in the first place.  Tobi being a Madara clone of the sorts is out because then what's the point in the mask. We can automatically rule out Obito and Kagami didn't really play much of a role.


that's pretty much I agree. 



> _*Tobi revealed his face to Akatsuki members shortly before war began to gain their trust. Now obviously Tobi must be a person who played a BIG role in the past for Akatsuki members to be surprised and have faith in their leader.*_



Okay. I am lost. Since when Tobi reveal his face to the Akatasuki? Think about this for a second of what you said. Akstasuki don't know the mask underneath. They know that Tobi is Tobi except Konan and Nagato believe that Tobi is Madara.
if Tobi reveal his face to the Akatsuki memebers, he jump back in Chapter 489?
page
page
page
page




> However, Izuna Uchiha was Madara's right hand man. They were actually equals and constantly fought each other to get stronger. Izuna alongside Madara fought against the Senju multiple times. He was truly a man who would be greatly praised, yet he still comes short in comparison to Madara, why? Because Madara was the clan leader, meaning Izuna had the backseat to his older brother.


And you did explain why that Madara was the clan leader? Yeah, He was stronger and the *OLDEST BROTHER*
page

There is no issue between Madara and Izuna. They both control the clan. No drama between them *IN THE MANGA. *




> Now to say any of the Akatsuki members knew who or what the elder son of the sage looked like is crazy when your comparing him to Izuna who was known as Madara's equal and younger brother.



Dude, they still don't know who is Tobi. They died before Tobi reveal to them. Stop adding stories. 
If one of the members Akatsuki  don't know the elder son of the sage, then why one of them named *KONAN* knows about the Sage of the Six Paths
page

Everyone knows the story about the sage, even Kakashi. 



> My question how is the elder son of the sage more relevant than Izuna? Think about this also. All shinobi thought of the sage of 6 paths to be a legend and a myth, wouldn't they also think the same of both the younger and the elder son? Whereas Izuna was actually known as Madara's equal among the Uchiha clan and the Tsuchikage Oonoki would also have known of Izuna seeing as how he also fought in the clan wars/shinobi wars.



Let's not think but just follow the manga since it is the source.

There is no connection, no effect about Izuna and Madara's equal.  It is just a little trivial information of how Izuna and one of the recent important characters, Madara powerful they are. What this information has to do with the recent chapters or the story? Nothing. As Madara puck Izuna's eyes out to get the Mangekyo Sharigngan, there is a little relevance  to show how descipal Madara is. 

Not all the shinobi though the sage of six paths isn't a myth.  One shinobi I show you earlier was Koan and she knows the story.  Another one is Jiraiya 
page
page

Nagato:
page

You have probably heard that Kakashi thought the tale was a myth.
page



> Yes, I understand that the elder son started the chain of hatred since he was the ancestor of Uchiha but that chain of hatred is still continuing and it certainly didn't end nor is contiuing through the elder son. He was the chains beginning, not the chain's end.



Yes, the chain of hatred is still continuing because of the *same ideal because of the elder Uchiha*. The ideal was one clan's hatred and jealous over another clan power.  Uchiha clan was to get revenge to the Senju clan because the past. * IT IS THEIR  NINDO.......is a personal rule that each shinobi lives by....way of life*

The curse wasn't continuing by Madara nor Izuna. They both follow the same ideals as the elder Uchiha


----------



## Pocket4Miracles (Apr 1, 2012)

Unless there is something missing, Izuna have no relevance. I believe the Elder Uchiha is Tobi.  There is no other alternative unless Kishimoto is doing plokai which I doubt it..


----------



## Pocket4Miracles (Apr 1, 2012)

Oh yeah......Space/Time Ninjutsu.  Now that is confirm that Izuna don't have this ability.  If Iunza is Tobi, when why He didn't have Space/Time Ninjustu.     Further evidence that Izuan isn't Tobi.


----------



## Target (Apr 1, 2012)

Seems madara confirmed tobi isnt izuna so were running out of candidates. Im even ready to move the elder son into the top 3 with shishui and kagami I just need to know why now. Why not the last 5000 years. I sapose madara could have revived him thats the only theory I would acept


----------



## DUNGEON (Apr 1, 2012)

Target said:


> Seems madara confirmed tobi isnt izuna so were running out of candidates. Im even ready to move the elder son into the top 3 with shishui and kagami I just need to know why now. Why not the last 5000 years. I sapose madara could have revived him thats the only theory I would acept



if i am not wrong then it was tobirama who developed edo tensei which was then passed down to orocchimaru and now kabuto..
i dont think madara knew anything about this reviving thingy..


----------



## Escargon (Apr 1, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Explain my sign, i didn't do anything beside removing the ''bags''.
> And anyways the clone crap wouldn't work since clones doesn't age right?



The eyesack there under is a line under the eye, it doesnt follow the eyesacks, i noticed it after taking a long look. So its basically Madara. 

Youre semiright you know, the longhaired one is really Madara, when Tobi removed his mask, it took some seconds for Kisame to notice that Tobi had done something to his face, propably implanting Madara, why else would Kisame say that?



Pocket4Miracles said:


> All Uchiha's eyes looks similar.
> page
> 
> It is confirm that Tobi is or not like Madara from the recent chapters.
> ...



But if Tobi is young, he would have the exact lines around the eyes like Madara, noone else has it. I dont feel like posting some pictures about prooving that the eyesack under his eye is not due to age.

But the other lines is propably due to age, like Mifune. 

And btw, Kabuto took Tobis Madara DNA to ressurect Madara, why else would Tobi say "How did you do this?!" Kabuto: "Oh, you know how i did that." Tobi: Hmmm he took Madaras DNA from me? How did he know? "Youre a madman!"

Theres a reason Kishi wants to hide his other face and his mouth. The face will shock the whole Konoha cause the whole team is going to his direction, perfectly to crush his mask. Mix that with that Tobi talks nicely about Hiruzen.

Want another proof? Kisame bit his own tongue so Konoha ninjas couldnt see who Tobi really is.


----------



## Talis (Apr 1, 2012)

Escargon said:


> The eyesack there under is a line under the eye, it doesnt follow the eyesacks, i noticed it after taking a long look. So its basically Madara.
> 
> Youre semiright you know, the longhaired one is really Madara, when Tobi removed his mask, it took some seconds for Kisame to notice that Tobi had done something to his face, propably implanting Madara, why else would Kisame say that?
> 
> ...



mean

Explain the left no wrinkled face side, while standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders which is clearly hinting to Tobito.


----------



## Escargon (Apr 1, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Explain my sign, i didn't do anything beside removing the ''bags''.
> And anyways the clone crap wouldn't work since clones doesn't age right?





loool3 said:


> mean
> 
> Explain the left no wrinkled face side, while standing in front of a wall which has a bunch of boulders which is clearly hinting to Tobito.



Im with you bro but in the shippudeen its revealed that both sides are wrinkled beneath the new mask if its not error(


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## Talis (Apr 1, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Im with you bro but in the shippudeen its revealed that both sides are wrinkled beneath the new mask if its not error(



Don't count a lot on the anime, but anyways the ''left face'' scene clearly showed no wrinkles in the anime.


----------



## son_michael (Apr 1, 2012)

Target said:


> Seems madara confirmed tobi isnt izuna so were running out of candidates. Im even ready to move the elder son into the top 3 with shishui and kagami I just need to know why now. Why not the last 5000 years. I sapose madara could have revived him thats the only theory I would acept



Shisui is dead. You coudl tell the way Tobi spoke about Shisui's eyes that they werent important to him, so no he is definitely not Shisui. 

Who is kagami again? I keep forgetting this guy and that is not a good thing lol.


Kishi has to make this identify resonate with the good guys, shock the readers and throw in an unbelievable amount of drama.


I can only see obito fulfilling this role. 

Of course he could just completing not write it the way he should and write shit and ruin this entire build up with some no name character the fans don't give a shit about or characters in the past who we also don't give a shit about...his call


----------



## Klue (Apr 1, 2012)

Kagami is the random Uchiha that appeared in Danzou's flashback, revealed moments before his death.


----------



## The Prodigy (Apr 1, 2012)

Pocket4Miracles said:


> that's pretty much I agree.



OK.



> Okay. I am lost. Since when Tobi reveal his face to the Akatasuki? Think about this for a second of what you said. Akstasuki don't know the mask underneath. They know that Tobi is Tobi except Konan and Nagato believe that Tobi is Madara.
> if Tobi reveal his face to the Akatsuki memebers, he jump back in Chapter 489?
> 2
> 2
> ...



Well if I have to count. Zetsu has seen Tobi's face. Kisame has seen Tobi's face, not once but twice. Sasuke has seen Tobi's face even if just partially. Konan and Nagato believed he was Madara. And we aren't 100% sure which Madara Itachi was referring to, so that's yet to be revealed. 



> And you did explain why that Madara was the clan leader? Yeah, He was stronger and the *OLDEST BROTHER*
> 2
> 
> There is no issue between Madara and Izuna. They both control the clan. No drama between them *IN THE MANGA. *



The were equals in every way possible. But it's because he was the older of the two and the older usually takes leadership. 




> Dude, they still don't know who is Tobi. They died before Tobi reveal to them. Stop adding stories.
> If one of the members Akatsuki  don't know the elder son of the sage, then why one of them named *KONAN* knows about the Sage of the Six Paths
> 2
> 
> ...



I'm not the one adding stories here. Konan and Nagato were the exceptions as Nagato himself was a Ridokou. 



> There is no connection, no effect about Izuna and Madara's equal.  It is just a little trivial information of how Izuna and one of the recent important characters, Madara powerful they are. What this information has to do with the recent chapters or the story? Nothing. As Madara puck Izuna's eyes out to get the Mangekyo Sharigngan, there is a little relevance  to show how descipal Madara is.



Actually they were equals, one was older than the other and that's the only reason Madara the clan leader, not because he was stronger. 



> Not all the shinobi though the sage of six paths isn't a myth.  One shinobi I show you earlier was Koan and she knows the story.  Another one is Jiraiya
> 2
> 2



Konan and Nagato knew the story, but again those are exceptions. Jiriaya knew of the story, but even he regarded it as MYTH. 

Nagato:
2



> You have probably heard that Kakashi thought the tale was a myth.
> 2



All those who know of the sage of 6 paths bar Itachi, Nagato, Danzou, and Konan were told by Tobi the true story. Either they were told OR they regarded as myth. 



> Yes, the chain of hatred is still continuing because of the *same ideal because of the elder Uchiha*. The ideal was one clan's hatred and jealous over another clan power.  Uchiha clan was to get revenge to the Senju clan because the past. * IT IS THEIR  NINDO.......is a personal rule that each shinobi lives by....way of life*
> 
> The curse wasn't continuing by Madara nor Izuna. They both follow the same ideals as the elder Uchiha



No it is a chain. There are no ideals that are being followed. Otherwise that means Sasuke also is following the ideals of the elder brother which is false. Note Tobi refers to the chain of hatred as a curse, not ideal. An ideal is like Shisui and Naruto having similar ideals, and they both instill in themselves the will of fire. But yet not all those who carry the will of fire have their idealism, get it?


----------



## Powerful Lord (Apr 1, 2012)

son_michael said:


> I can only see obito fulfilling this role.
> 
> Of course he could just completing not write it the way he should and write shit and ruin this entire build up with some no name character the fans don't give a shit about or characters in the past who we also don't give a shit about...his call



Just because he want to? Also, if Tobi was Obito then he would have had some reaction by being faced with Kakashi, not treat him as an inferior like that. He had more reactions talking about the past of Madara and Madara's brother than talking directly to Kakashi, also, Madara seems to recognise Tobi in some way, that would only hapen if Obito was a time traveler.


----------



## Talis (Apr 1, 2012)

Powerful Lord said:


> Just because he want to? Also, if Tobi was Obito then he would have had some reaction by being faced with Kakashi, not treat him as an inferior like that. He had more reactions talking about the past of Madara and Madara's brother than talking directly to Kakashi, also, Madara seems to recognise Tobi in some way, that would only hapen if Obito was a time traveler.



Dude if Kishi wrote Tobito acting like a friend of Kakashi wouldn't it be fcking obvious that he just is Obito?
Yeah, all the ''i am Madara'' or ''who the f is he'' moments of years would be wasted for nothing. 
Tobi gave Kakashi at the first meeting an epic Sharingan glare Kissmanga.


----------



## Powerful Lord (Apr 1, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Dude if Kishi wrote Tobito acting like a friend of Kakashi wouldn't it be fcking obvious that he just is Obito?
> Yeah, all the ''i am Madara'' or ''who the f is he'' moments of years would be wasted for nothing.
> Tobi gave Kakashi at the first meeting an epic Sharingan glare Link removed.



It still doesn't answer how he met Madara.
And when Tobi was talking about Madara's brother he had a body reaction:
Link removed

That should have hapened between Tobi and Kakashi if they truly were comrades as kids


----------



## Talis (Apr 1, 2012)

Powerful Lord said:


> It still doesn't answer how he met Madara.
> And when Tobi was talking about Madara's brother he had a body reaction:
> here
> 
> That should have hapened between Tobi and Kakashi if they truly were comrades as kids



Obito gave also his eye ''just like Izuna'' away to someone of course he might had some kind of emotions also.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 2, 2012)

*Could Tobi be Madara's daddy?*

Just wondering, that's why I came to the conclusion that I can see him losing but reviving the real Madara (one fighting the Gokage) for a final battle happening in a different arc in the future. But I also thought that because Madara seems to garner a great deal of unspoken respect for him after he was revived.


----------



## αce (Apr 2, 2012)

Wouldn't son make more sense if that was the case?


----------



## Chuck (Apr 2, 2012)

*mind=blown* 

it all makes sense now!! older appearance, the same plans and generally a better theory than the "Obito/Madara clone" ones


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 2, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Wouldn't son make more sense if that was the case?


Perhaps, I suppose it could go either way. But when he spoke about Madara vs. Hashirama to Naruto before the Summit, he seemed to speak as an older spectator (perhaps an uncle or father is what I came to) as opposed to a younger son watching his daddy getting his ass handed to him.





The Flying Chuck said:


> *mind=blown*
> 
> it all makes sense now!! older appearance, the same plans and generally a better theory than the "Obito/Madara clone" ones


Yeah, I didn't really like old/new theory and the obito theories made me all  So this is the best I could come up with, other than being Kagami and/or Izuna (who Madara confirmed is dead and ruled out) makes a resentful father a perfect figure.

Madara is the way he is because he was groomed to be an asshole, I don't really see how he was just born as an asshole. That wouldn't really make sense. I think his father prepped in the same manner as Fugaku tried to prep Itachi, and we all know how that went.


----------



## Chuck (Apr 2, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Wouldn't son make more sense if that was the case?



this makes sense too


----------



## Rios (Apr 2, 2012)

How about a bastard brother?

Or maybe his dog.


----------



## Talis (Apr 2, 2012)

No.
And it was confirmed that his parents were random fodders even the name or something was related ''extremely strong childs can also be born from fodder parents''.


----------



## Klue (Apr 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> No.
> And it was confirmed that his parents were random fodders even the name or something was related ''extremely strong childs can also be born from fodder parents''.



Madara's parents were confirmed fodder? 

Where?


----------



## DUNGEON (Apr 2, 2012)

its elder son of the sage..simple!!


----------



## Rouge Angle (Apr 2, 2012)

Klue said:


> Madara's parents were confirmed fodder?
> 
> Where?



They weren't. I think what loool3 is talking about is a Japanese proverb that is cited in the trivia section of Tobi's Narutopedia page.


----------



## ovanz (Apr 2, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Wouldn't son make more sense if that was the case?



Yeah that make more sense. Or tun tun tun 
*Spoiler*: __ 



he is the son of madara's brother


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Apr 2, 2012)

It makes more sense that Madara is the father of Tobi, not the other way around. So OP


----------



## Tasq21 (Apr 2, 2012)

since madara has somehow confirmed that Izuna is dead I think it's Obito.I first thought it was Izuna with Obito's body but I'm not so sure about  that any more.
here are just my 2 cents for the Obito theory(and PLEASE forget the whole thing with the name and hair are>>) there are many other evidence why he could be Obito like this(and I don't remeber somebody ever mention this o.o):

(which Sasuke already done) and the arm

we see both he's eyes and the "wrinkles" on his right side.(above his eye and under it too)but on the left side the wrinkles under his eye could be hidden (i'll give that) but over his eyes there is nothing there. 
and this one...

(which Sasuke already done) and the arm

the second and third panel...Tobi reaction to Kakashi's "i can't let my team-mates down" speech.
Am I realy the only one who saw it?o.o
(ah and sorry if there are some grammar mistakes. wanted to add some of my thought xP)


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Apr 2, 2012)

Madara fucked Mei Terumi's mother, and Tobi was born.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Apr 2, 2012)

Ryuzaki said:


> Madara is the way he is because he was groomed to be an asshole, I don't really see how he was just born as an asshole. That wouldn't really make sense. I think his father prepped in the same manner as Fugaku tried to prep Itachi, and we all know how that went.



*Interesting...I never looked at it that way. 

Maybe this really is some kind of vicious cycle.*


----------



## Daylight (Apr 2, 2012)

*Revisiting Tobi = Tobirama*

[SPOILER="Disclaimer]Yes, I'm sorry. This is another Tobi identity thread. I wouldn't be half surprised if a mod locked this right off the bat, but I figure they've let other, more repetitive discussions go, so I'll leave it up to them to decide.

If you have some deep-seated hatred for this type of discussion, I feel for you, but please don't post here. It will skyrocket the chances of this thread (which I think has some potential) getting locked. Thank you.[/SPOILER]

I don't necessarily believe that Tobi is in fact Tobirama--however, I've thought about it, and I feel like it's actually more plausible than most people give it credit for. Here's a brief list of some things that it might explain:


Starting with the obvious: Tobi would be a logical pseudonym for Tobirama to take on.
As has probably been mentioned before, Tobi is highly proficient in S/T ninjutsu, which Tobirama was said to be a master of. The reason I think that this is especially significant is that it would be pretty (uncharacteristically) pointless of Kishi to mention Tobirama's S/T ninjutsu without following up on it, and a flashback to Tobirama probably wouldn't fit well into the current storyline. I don't see any other ways we could ever actually see Tobirama's fabled S/T jutsu. 
It would make sense for Tobirama to have access to Hashirama's cells.
If Tobirama were planning in advance to get in cahoots with Madara, then his mysterious death (how many threads complained that the Hokage got taken down by regular old jounin?) would make a little more sense, as it would have merely been a facade. 
It would give Tobirama a fairer share of plot significance, which currently he seriously lacks compared to the rest of the Hokage.
It would help explain Madara's access to Hashirama's cells as well.

I have other reasons too, but these are the ones I have the hardest time explaining away. Thoughts?


----------



## Orochibuto (Apr 2, 2012)

Tobirama was summoned by edo tensei, you cant summon someone unless they are 100% dead.


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## Talis (Apr 3, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Tobirama was summoned by edo tensei, you cant summon someone unless they are 100% dead.



Don't forget Tobi didn't also knew about the ''ET'' while Tobirama created it lol.


----------



## Demonic Sharingan (Apr 3, 2012)

Im going to think he is...

Obito


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## Target (Apr 3, 2012)

son_michael said:


> Shisui is dead. You coudl tell the way Tobi spoke about Shisui's eyes that they werent important to him, so no he is definitely not Shisui.
> 
> Who is kagami again? I keep forgetting this guy and that is not a good thing lol.
> 
> ...



he has no motive and he would be too young. Thats why randoms are ahead of obito


and tobi got really pissed off when danzou destroyed shishius eye...


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## Target (Apr 3, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> if i am not wrong then it was tobirama who developed edo tensei which was then passed down to orocchimaru and now kabuto..
> i dont think madara knew anything about this reviving thingy..



im sure he knew of it but thats irrelevant. He said izuna was dead.... At least in the untrustworthy trans I saw


----------



## Ryuzaki (Apr 3, 2012)

I still think Tobi is Madara's daddy, Obito's not making a come back sorry guys


----------



## son_michael (Apr 3, 2012)

Target said:


> he has no motive and he would be too young. Thats why randoms are ahead of obito
> 
> 
> and tobi got really pissed off when danzou destroyed shishius eye...





Obito would have plenty of motive, plus there's the whole brainwashing/possession thing. 



Tobi was pissed off cause he wanted the eye cause it has amazing mind control abilities, it had nothing to do with that eye being special to him. He didn't treat it like it was his and that he absolutely had to have it back.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 4, 2012)

Rikudou or his sons are very unlikely, since Tobi doesn't know the names of tailed beasts. Just a reminder to those who still believe in these theories. The only alternative seems to be Jubi.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 8, 2012)

Hey guys, I am new here and this is actually my first post. I also haven't read all of the 75 sites in this thread, so I can't tell if my theory has been posted once or twice or even more times, but I just wanted to share it with you ;D
Eventhough he may not know the names of the tailed beasts, I think that Tobi is the elder son of the Rikudou, who has been able to survive with some kind of jutsu, like it is used by Orochimaru (Fushi Tensei). This means, he survived by taking over the bodies of other members of the Uchiha Clan, what allowed him to keep on the feud with the Senju Clans -> You may say: The Uchihas, who fought the Senju, are simply all Tobi.
One of the Uchihas, overtaken by Tobi was also Madara, after he founded Konoha with Hashirama. Tobi controles the Kyuubi in Madaras body in order to destroy Konoha, which gave force to the Senju, but lost to Hashirama. He had to back down. He switched bodies for the next 50 years without anything happening. Assuming he needs a body all 15-20 years he switched 2 times and when he needed the third body, he took the one of Obito. (Dies in 3rd War, which takes place 47 years after Madara "summoned" the Kyuubi, maybe Tobi was exhausted for some reason and not able to take the body of a living Uchiha, so he took Obitos) Again he attacks Konoha with the Kyuubi, but is stopped by Minato. (Maybe Obitos body was to not strong enough, because of one missing Sharingan)
While living undercover, he observes 2 Uchiha growing up, who might be strong enough to fulfill his plans, to destroy Konoha: Itachi and Shisui. He plans to take one of them as his next body. Itachi kills Shisui in order to be either strong enough to kill all Uchihas for the Konoha elders or to prevent Shisui from expose Itachis plan.
Tobi knows that he is not strong enough to take Itachis body (Orochimaru fails at the same time to take Itachis body) and decides to take Shisuis eyes (because he has only one due Obitos body), but Itachi had already taken one of Shisuis eyes (it's in his crow) so Tobi takes only the other one. He is still not able to take Itachis body [possible reason: Tobi is still weakend due to the lose to Minato, implanted Sharingan drains Tobis Chakra, Shisui's Kotoamatsukami in the eye taken by Itachi saves him from Tobi (Itachi kills Shisui 6 years before the story starts + 4 years Shippuuden training time: 10 years -> the exact time to refresh Shisui's eye)]
Tobi tries now to get Itachi with the help of Sasuke, but Sasuke kills Itachi. This makes Sasuke to the new target for Tobis plan. (Still assuming that he needs a new body all 15-20 years, he gets pressure now, because his current body was overtaken in the 3rd War, which lays back 17 years) He needs Sasukes body! And cooperates with him for that reason.
In the meantime he steals Nagatos Rinnegan and says, that he gave it to him once and now takes it back (He is the older son of Rikudou-> got the eyes of Rikudou), as well as that Nagato was the third Sage of the six Paths (Rikudou being the first, and he being the second for having the eyes of Rikudou)

That's pretty much all I wanted to say 
Ah yes one more thing: Why is he afraid of the "reborn" Madara? Because it's one of his former bodies, at that moment he hasn't got the Rinnegan, so he is still weakend. (still weak body of Obito, eventhough he may be about 30 years now) Therefore his "former body" Madara is stronger than he is, and may be able to either expose his identity or even defeat him. Furthermore he is afraid, because everybody knows now, that he is not Madara.


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## DUNGEON (Apr 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Hey guys, I am new here and this is actually my first post. I also haven't read all of the 75 sites in this thread, so I can't tell if my theory has been posted once or twice or even more times, but I just wanted to share it with you ;D
> Eventhough he may not know the names of the tailed beasts, I think that Tobi is the elder son of the Rikudou, who has been able to survive with some kind of jutsu, like it is used by Orochimaru (Fushi Tensei). This means, he survived by taking over the bodies of other members of the Uchiha Clan, what allowed him to keep on the feud with the Senju Clans -> You may say: The Uchihas, who fought the Senju, are simply all Tobi.
> One of the Uchihas, overtaken by Tobi was also Madara, after he founded Konoha with Hashirama. Tobi controles the Kyuubi in Madaras body in order to destroy Konoha, which gave force to the Senju, but lost to Hashirama. He had to back down. He switched bodies for the next 50 years without anything happening. Assuming he needs a body all 15-20 years he switched 2 times and when he needed the third body, he took the one of Obito. (Dies in 3rd War, which takes place 47 years after Madara "summoned" the Kyuubi, maybe Tobi was exhausted for some reason and not able to take the body of a living Uchiha, so he took Obitos) Again he attacks Konoha with the Kyuubi, but is stopped by Minato. (Maybe Obitos body was to not strong enough, because of one missing Sharingan)
> While living undercover, he observes 2 Uchiha growing up, who might be strong enough to fulfill his plans, to destroy Konoha: Itachi and Shisui. He plans to take one of them as his next body. Itachi kills Shisui in order to be either strong enough to kill all Uchihas for the Konoha elders or to prevent Shisui from expose Itachis plan.
> ...



+1 to you man.Awesome theory.
i too believe that he is the elder son.
his aim was to maintain the peace through strength and he is doing all to prove that nothing can be done through love and shit.
he is the one who said to konan that he gave rinnegan to nagato(beside madara and rikudou only he wielded rinnegan.)
and i am sure he slaughtered senju and uzumaki clan for the sake of his hatred.


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## Onek (Apr 8, 2012)

*Tobi is obito*

Sorry to put your hopes down but I think obito is tobiF

Source 1: spiky black hair if you guys say that when he infiltrated the leaf village with long hair well hair doesn't stay the same length your whole life time

Source 2:tobi is in the name obitoF

Source 3: obitos face was crushed on the right side and tobi's face is all wrinkled on the right side plus his only eye whole is on the right sideF

Source 4: people say obito only had one eye after giving it to kakashi and there's no way it was obito because he when he fought konan it showed both of his sharingan.... But think again losers remember when he was replacing sauske's Feyes he probably had hundreds of eyes behind him so he could replace that right left eye when ever he wants

And notice how he sacrifice his left eye to the forbidan jutsu izanagi
So he won't die from konans paper bombs well he sacrificed his left one because his right one was his original sharingan he can get plenty more of where that came fromF

Source 5:we didn't get to see obito's body after that so where did it go ? H,mm who wondersF

Source 6: tobi and kakashi has the same time and space jutsu .. No one else uses that jutsu except for tobi and kakashi so obito gave the eye to kakashi and kakashi can use it so can tobi that's weird they might be the same eye

Source 7: tobi isn't madras because madara was brought back from the dead so it couldn't have been tobi


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## Powerful Lord (Apr 8, 2012)

I fear that when the mistery is revealed those that were able to predict more or less who he is will act all 
while those that failed and ralised their option was impossible or even stupid will go


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 8, 2012)

DUNGEON said:


> +1 to you man.Awesome theory.
> i too believe that he is the elder son.
> his aim was to maintain the peace through strength and he is doing all to prove that nothing can be done through love and shit.
> he is the one who said to konan that he gave rinnegan to nagato(beside madara and rikudou only he wielded rinnegan.)
> and i am sure he slaughtered senju and uzumaki clan for the sake of his hatred.



I can tell from that, that my theory has kinda unique elements ;D 
Glad to hear so^^




Onek said:


> Sorry to put your hopes down but I think obito is tobiF



As already mentioned, Tobi cannot be Obito himself, because in that case he would have been 14 years old, when he attacked the village with the Kyuubi and even killed Minato and Kushina. A 14 year-old would never be able to control the Kyubi or have a slight chance against Minato. Therefore it cannot be Obito himself, but his body, who died exactly one year before. His body is controlled. -> Older son of the Rikudou


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## Escargon (Apr 8, 2012)

Funny theories but the whole Konoha is on their way to see Tobis Konoha face. What else..


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## SpoilerCrew (Apr 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger is nearly right. For example Tobi couldn?t get any of Shisui?s eyes, because Itachi and Danzo had them. And there are other little flaws in your theory.

But the most is right. Tobi is the elder son, who switched his body the whole time. Currently he has the body of Obito.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 8, 2012)

Onek said:


> Sorry to put your hopes down but I think obito is tobiF
> 
> Source 1: spiky black hair if you guys say that when he infiltrated the leaf village with long hair well hair doesn't stay the same length your whole life time
> 
> ...



Wow, you're an idiot.

1. Okay, so how does that prove Tobi is Obito?

2. So, if Obito's name is in Tobi's name, that means he's Obito? Wow, I never knew that. There's probably another reason as to why Tobi uses "Tobi" as his name.

3. He might only have those wrinkles because of old age or something else.

4. He has two eyes because he's not Obito. And it doesn't matter what eye you sacrifice for Izanagi.

5. Obito's body is probably still under the boulders that crushed him. If it's not, it's certainly not Tobi.

6. This might be true, but it still doesn't prove that Tobi is Obito.

7. Everyone knew that.

Seriously, this "Tobi is Obito" theory is the most stupid, overused, overrated, and the most flawed theory I've ever seen. I used to think Tobi was Obito too, but then I realized how many flaws this theory had. Now I don't follow any theory. I just be patient until Kishi reveals who Tobi is. Though, I wish he would just hurry up and reveal who he is already.

Also, I would like to say one more thing. All you're doing is using other people's facts to prove that Tobi is Obito. You have no facts of your own to prove it. You probably read like a hundred Tobi is Obito theories and just used their facts.


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## FadiElSaid (Apr 8, 2012)

*Tobi's identity*

Now i know that this theory has been overused and everything but i think atm its the most accurate one. Tobi is Obito. Ino having close names an all isnt much of proof, but there are loads of other things that point in that direction.

1) Tobi only showed one Sharingan, and that was his right eye, while Kakashi has his Sharingan in his left eye.
2) Tobi has the same hairstyle as Obito did (not exactly solid, ino, but still =P)
3) When Tobi removed his mask, the left side of his face was crushed.
4) Tobi's sharingan is the same type as Kakashi's; the whole space time thingy.
5) Why did kishi have the whole Young Kakashi arc, its not a filler arc so it must have some sort of relevance to the current story.

Alternatively, why the hell did Minato tell Naruto that it was Madara that was behind the Konoha attack? Im pretty sure that he wouldnt just say that if he wasnt completely sure who it was. 

Before i also thought that Tobi could be Sasuke's dad, but theres barely any evidence for that other than the whole grudge against Konoha thing, since Sasuke's dad was leading the coup d'etat.

Whoever Tobi really is, I hope kishi reveals him soon, until then theories are gonna keep flying around, and theories are just theories, as much evidence as one can have you can never be 100% sure about it.


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## Talis (Apr 8, 2012)

Kakashi will obviously unmask Tobito in this Kakashi's year.
New sign says enough tough.


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## FadiElSaid (Apr 8, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Hey guys, I am new here and this is actually my first post. I also haven't read all of the 75 sites in this thread, so I can't tell if my theory has been posted once or twice or even more times, but I just wanted to share it with you ;D
> Eventhough he may not know the names of the tailed beasts, I think that Tobi is the elder son of the Rikudou, who has been able to survive with some kind of jutsu, like it is used by Orochimaru (Fushi Tensei). This means, he survived by taking over the bodies of other members of the Uchiha Clan, what allowed him to keep on the feud with the Senju Clans -> You may say: The Uchihas, who fought the Senju, are simply all Tobi.
> One of the Uchihas, overtaken by Tobi was also Madara, after he founded Konoha with Hashirama. Tobi controles the Kyuubi in Madaras body in order to destroy Konoha, which gave force to the Senju, but lost to Hashirama. He had to back down. He switched bodies for the next 50 years without anything happening. Assuming he needs a body all 15-20 years he switched 2 times and when he needed the third body, he took the one of Obito. (Dies in 3rd War, which takes place 47 years after Madara "summoned" the Kyuubi, maybe Tobi was exhausted for some reason and not able to take the body of a living Uchiha, so he took Obitos) Again he attacks Konoha with the Kyuubi, but is stopped by Minato. (Maybe Obitos body was to not strong enough, because of one missing Sharingan)
> While living undercover, he observes 2 Uchiha growing up, who might be strong enough to fulfill his plans, to destroy Konoha: Itachi and Shisui. He plans to take one of them as his next body. Itachi kills Shisui in order to be either strong enough to kill all Uchihas for the Konoha elders or to prevent Shisui from expose Itachis plan.
> ...



  Holy crap i shouldve read this before posting my theory, 
eveerything you said makes perfect sense,
amazing theory, the closest and most accurate so far in my opinion


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## Powerful Lord (Apr 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Kakashi will obviously unmask Tobito in this Kakashi's year.
> New sign says enough tough.



Is Obito a time traveler?


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 8, 2012)

FadiElSaid said:


> Holy crap i shouldve read this before posting my theory,
> eveerything you said makes perfect sense,
> amazing theory, the closest and most accurate so far in my opinion



I am pretty glad you appreciate my theory 
I also first thought of Obito, Shisui or Izuna Uchiha, but then this theory came to my mind and I was like "Dude that's it!!" ;D


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## Talis (Apr 8, 2012)

Powerful Lord said:


> Is Obito a time traveler?



No why should he?
Because he was tall when he fought against Minato?
Did you saw Naruto's height when he was talking with Minato, their height was the same and Obito still should have been older then Naruto when he fought against Minato, and if that isn't enough go look at a 13-15 years old Itachi which was even tall as 20 years old Kisame at chapter 507-511 the bridge panel. 
On top of that Zetsu goo might gave even an extra boost to his seize.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 8, 2012)

FadiElSaid said:


> Now i know that this theory has been overused and everything but i think atm its the most accurate one. Tobi is Obito. Ino having close names an all isnt much of proof, but there are loads of other things that point in that direction.
> 
> 1) Tobi only showed one Sharingan, and that was his right eye, while Kakashi has his Sharingan in his left eye.
> 2) Tobi has the same hairstyle as Obito did (not exactly solid, ino, but still =P)
> ...



The physical features don't really matter. The *facts* are the stuff that matter.
Also, Minato never told Naruto that Madara was the one who attacked the leaf. He said that the person who attacked the leaf was a member of the Akatsuki. The one with the mask.


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## Talis (Apr 8, 2012)

Whoever it is i just want to see that face soooo badly. :/


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## Dolohov27 (Apr 8, 2012)

Tobi is Setsuna, a Uchiha who was introduce right when Tobi claim to be Madara, which we know now to be a lie.


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## Powerful Lord (Apr 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> No why should he?
> Because he was tall when he fought against Minato?
> Did you saw Naruto's height when he was talking with Minato, their height was the same and Obito still should have been older then Naruto when he fought against Minato, and if that isn't enough go look at a 13-15 years old Itachi which was even tall as 20 years old Kisame at chapter 507-511 the bridge panel.
> On top of that Zetsu goo might gave even an extra boost to his seize.



No, because Madara aparently recognises him and his revivalas already part of the plan.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Whoever it is i just want to see that face soooo badly. :/



lol me too.


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## joshhookway (Apr 8, 2012)

TOBITO FTW


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## Talis (Apr 8, 2012)

Powerful Lord said:


> No, because Madara aparently recognises him and his revivalas already part of the plan.



The long haired man which controled Yagura was obviously the real Madara, he had a bandage on his chest and Madara ''died'' with a sword cut through his chest,anyways i won't be surprised if edo Madara pop next to Kabuto soon and says ''hello Itachi, we meet again''.
Oh another reason why Tobi wasn't the one controling Yagura is because edo Yagura was next to him we didn't get any info about them yet he fade away.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 8, 2012)

loool3 said:


> No why should he?
> Because he was tall when he fought against Minato?
> Did you saw Naruto's height when he was talking with Minato, their height was the same and Obito still should have been older then Naruto when he fought against Minato, and if that isn't enough go look at a 13-15 years old Itachi which was even tall as 20 years old Kisame at chapter 507-511 the bridge panel.
> On top of that Zetsu goo might gave even an extra boost to his seize.



We can see that Tobi is about 20 cm smaller than Minato in that fight. 
Obito was 155 cm when he died, Minato was 180 cm, so basically Obito has the right size to be Tobi. But as allready mentioned, a 14 year-old boy can't fight Minato -> must be controlled -> son of the rikudou 

I found further details, matching with my theorie:
Tobi says to Konan, that the winner of the clash between Uchiha and Senju is the one, who focuses on the future. That's Tobi, because he fights the Senju, since they exist and earns experience, which will make it possible for him to surpass them.

Later he says to Kabuto: "They [nagatos eyes] were mine to begin with." -> Prime Father of Uchiha


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 9, 2012)

Though I don't follow any theory about who Tobi is, I think the "Tobi is Kagami Uchiha" theory is the most accurate. I think there's a fairly good chance of Tobi being him.


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## Tasq21 (Apr 9, 2012)

i really hope he isnt a new character. it would piss me off>.>
the only thing that I can say with 100% is that tobi isn't Shisui(we all know why) or SO6P(Kurama and Son somehow confirmed)...and the sons of the SO6P don't have a big chance either since Kurama nor Son hadn't recognized him...


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 9, 2012)

Tasq21 said:


> i really hope he isnt a new character. it would piss me off>.>
> the only thing that I can say with 100% is that tobi isn't Shisui(we all know why) or SO6P(Kurama and Son somehow confirmed)...and the sons of the SO6P don't have a big chance either since Kurama nor Son hadn't recognized him...



Nobody knows in which way the Bijuu know or don't know the sons of the SO6P.
Tobi might be able to change or surpress his Chakra, if he is the son of the SO6P. (The older son got the SO6P's Chakra, so he might be able to control it.)


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## DemonBorn4569 (Apr 9, 2012)

Chose other: I personally think hes what he said he was, No One or No Body, hes a thing made up of various cells (possibly a mixture of Madara and Hashirama) embodying a fragment of the original 10-Tails chakra, hence why he also said he wishes to be whole again.

Tobi is a freak of nature whose body melts/gets blown off and appears perfectly fine two pages later, he pops eyes in and out with no down time in between and can phase in an out of existence and even has his own realm or dimension. Tobi isn't a ninja... Its a thing/monster.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 9, 2012)

DemonBorn4569 said:


> Chose other: I personally think hes what he said he was, No One or No Body, hes a thing made up of various cells (possibly a mixture of Madara and Hashirama) embodying a fragment of the original 10-Tails chakra, hence why he also said he wishes to be whole again.
> 
> Tobi is a freak of nature whose body melts/gets blown off and appears perfectly fine two pages later, he pops eyes in and out with no down time in between and can phase in an out of existence and even has his own realm or dimension. Tobi isn't a ninja... Its a thing/monster.



Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying Tobi isn't even a ninja anymore. Tobi is still a ninja, just a very awkward one and one that has mysterious abilities which portray him as a monster, but isn't actually one.

I'm still wondering why Tobi has that white gooey stuff that Zetsu has...


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## Mateush (Apr 10, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I'm still wondering why Tobi has that white gooey stuff that Zetsu has...





How funny that long time ago I made a theory about Tobi (at least his body) originates from Kirigakure, since water abilities is popular there. It might be true after all


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## Menacing Eyes (Apr 10, 2012)

I'm not even sure myself exactly who or what Tobi is anymore. 

He cant be Izuna, since we heard from Madara himself that he's dead, not to mention he refers to Tobi as a completely separate person when he mentions having a minion to revive him. 

Obito is...I don't really need to explain this one, do I? 

As for the elder son...why would someone who is closer to the Sage's power be working for Madara, a lesser descendant? Wouldn't Madara be working for him instead?

I guess that only leaves Kagami or Setsuna for people we already know about. 

I'm still banking on Tobi being some kind of abomination clone that Madara created himself in a lab many years ago though. I just think it ties in with the "I'm no one" deal pretty well, since Madara might not have even given him the name "Tobi", and he might have had to go through with assuming the identity of others to get things done because he has no original identity to cling to.


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## jacamo (Apr 10, 2012)

its frikin Kagami guys

even Izuna has been chalked off


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## Escargon (Apr 10, 2012)

jacamo said:


> its frikin Kagami guys
> 
> even Izuna has been chalked off



Uhm half of his face atleast is Madara. The first wrinkle under his eye is not due to aging, he really is Madara.

Kabuto took Tobis dna to ress Madara. Hes made of Zetsu cause he is some sort of a clone. He might have two faces, like Zetsu. 

The fox recognized the eye as Madara, but at the same time, Kagami was gone.

Maybe he is half Madara half Kagami.

Just watch the wrinkles under his eyes. The first one does not match the rest, so he would still look like Madara as a kid.

Oh well lol at these identity threads, im 99% sure Tobis a Madara clone.

Btw guys, hes face is not crushed, Tobis old. He got the same wrinkles as Mifune.

And btw, im the one who made a theory that it was dr Gordon putting that key in saw 2, everyone disagreed, and what happened 5 years later? You cant hide it, Tobi got Madaras face. It doesnt mean Madaras alive, its not hard to implant dead people into you..


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## DemonBorn4569 (Apr 10, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I'm not even sure myself exactly who or what Tobi is anymore.
> 
> He cant be Izuna, since we heard from Madara himself that he's dead, not to mention he refers to Tobi as a completely separate person when he mentions having a minion to revive him.
> 
> ...



Agreed, I'm heavily banking on Tobi being more of a thing than a person. "I'm no one" "I wish to be whole again." these two quotes always stick out in my mind.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 10, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> As for the elder son...why would someone who is closer to the Sage's power be working for Madara, a lesser descendant? Wouldn't Madara be working for him instead?



I am still not convinced of this argument. We never heard a real statement, proving, that Tobi works for Madara. If he was the elder son, he might be able to control Madara. If Madara knew that he was not able to kill Hashirama, his only possibility would be, to follow Tobi.
What I am trying to say is, that the elder son needed a body to live in, and Madara needed power, so he gave his body to the elder son and let him control his moves. Shortly before Madara's body was going to die, he and the elder created the moons eye plan. The elder left Madara's body, but gave the Rinnegan to him, so he would be able to revive him later, with Nagato's help. (reason why Madara awoke the Rinnegan shortly before he died, other possible reason would be, to use Madara to "conserve" the Rinnegan)
Madara died, and the elder son took a new body. He planed to revive 
Madara and together fulfill the moonseye plan. Nagato used the revive jutsu for Konoha, but luckily Madara was revived by Kabuto, so they are united now and can fulfill the plan. (Madara is talking about "him" (Tobi) as a part of the plan, he never said, that Tobi was his servant.)


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## gloomygrim (Apr 10, 2012)

The mystery of tobi is the single most annoying thing about narut...o...wait second most annoying thing about naruto, sakura being the first.

Theories fly about like flies round shit but the details are not uniformed. .  you have to look to the facts to figure out who he is.  

Obito being tobi i have always though it was shite. just cuz they have the same ish name means nothing, tobimaru same ish name so is tobi both obito and tobimaru. same hair, theres enough uchihas with the same hair for it to be any number of them, single sharingan,  nope he had 2 just hide one.

Shisui, danzo crushed one and itachi has/had the other. 

izuna has no eyes,  were would he have gotten eyes from?  he was dead long before itachis uchiha culling session. madara said he is dead, not so much a fact but still.

i have had theories after thoery and posted a few and then as the manga/anime progresses they lose there validity.   who ever tobi is kishi has every one right were he wants them


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 10, 2012)

Yes you are right, it's all hypothetical stuff, but it's fun to analyse facts and try to figure out who Tobi is. And even if we are all wrong, the end will be more surprising the more theories there are and the more are wrong. 
Mangaka want their readers to think about such stuff, that's why they give hints to think about.


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## gloomygrim (Apr 10, 2012)

To true.  i dont mind out there theories there really fun to read and who ever comes up with them spends alot of time and effort in thinkin of them.  

I cant stand this obito is tobi thing though it just buggs me.  obito was fodder plain and simple,  made to fill in kakashis back story.  

At one point i was in the shisui and izuna thought process but they were quickly killed off lol.   

Now im not so sure,  im starting to think the setsuna uchiha is a viable candidate,  but that will be debunked soon enough lol


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## son_michael (Apr 10, 2012)

gloomygrim said:


> To true.  i dont mind out there theories there really fun to read and who ever comes up with them spends alot of time and effort in thinkin of them.
> 
> I cant stand this obito is tobi thing though it just buggs me.  obito was fodder plain and simple,  made to fill in kakashis back story.
> 
> ...



and it really bugs me when people classify obito as a worthless fodder. That worthless fodder has parallels to Naruto, a MANGEKYOU SHARINGAN which only comes from the strongest Uchiha and he is a key element in the whole teamwork/bonds concept in this story. Not to mention that his death was UNRESOLVED, we never saw him die and no you can't just assume he's dead because he was covered by rocks 

Fact is he's a manga character and he was introduced for a reason. He had a mysterious death scene for a reason and people think he has something to do with tobi for many different reasons.

Case in point: Dan came back and by your logic, he was just some fodder for Tsunade's backstory.


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## Raventhal (Apr 10, 2012)

Well one thing.  If Tobi was going to reveal his face it can't be anyone Sasuke would remember since he did or was going to show him his face.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 10, 2012)

gloomygrim said:


> The mystery of tobi is the single most annoying thing about narut...o...



I used to think that guessing Tobi's identity was a fun thing, but that was when I followed people's theories and tried to make theories of my own. Now I don't follow a theory or try to guess who Tobi is. I'm just being patient until Kishi reveals it. Some people don't realize that there is no way for them to find out who Tobi is. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you research, no matter how many theories you make, you'll never find Tobi's true identity. The only thing I find fun now is countering other people's stupid theories xD. Like the Obito ones.



son_michael said:


> Fact is he's a manga character and he was introduced for a reason.



That reason was to show how Kakashi got the Sharingan.


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## Talis (Apr 10, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I used to think that guessing Tobi's identity was a fun thing, but that was when I followed people's theories and tried to make theories of my own. Now I don't follow a theory or try to guess who Tobi is. I'm just being patient until Kishi reveals it. Some people don't realize that there is no way for them to find out who Tobi is. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you research, no matter how many theories you make, you'll never find Tobi's true identity. The only thing I find fun now is countering other people's stupid theories xD. Like the Obito ones.
> 
> 
> 
> That reason was to show how Kakashi got the Sharingan.


The chapters title was given to him, + it's pretty funny Obito ''dies'' by getting rocks on him.
I mean out of 1000 options to die he just ends up in the same way as Tobi's same crushed messed up body.


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## kzk (Apr 11, 2012)

*And people thought Zabuza was shafted...*

Zabuza is Tobi 100% confirmed. They both wear masks and have the same facial structure!  Zabuza is just hiding his Sharingan


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 11, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I used to think that guessing Tobi's identity was a fun thing, but that was when I followed people's theories and tried to make theories of my own. Now I don't follow a theory or try to guess who Tobi is. I'm just being patient until Kishi reveals it. Some people don't realize that there is no way for them to find out who Tobi is. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you research, no matter how many theories you make, you'll never find Tobi's true identity. The only thing I find fun now is countering other people's stupid theories xD.




So try to counter mine


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## Mateush (Apr 11, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> So try to counter mine



I like your theory and would love if Tobi is Elder son or someone from the ancient time, since it gives Kishi good opportunity to make long flashback about Rikudou, Tobi and Juubi which would be interesting. The only I fail to see in Tobi had one of Shisui's eye, but it was Itachi and Danzou which had these eyes. In the end Danzou destroyed Shisui's eye so Tobi couldn't use it.

Also I feel Rikudou's own sons should know the names of all tailed beasts. I can't see why they wouldn't know their names.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 11, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I like your theory and would love if Tobi is Elder son or someone from the ancient time, since it gives Kishi good opportunity to make long flashback about Rikudou, Tobi and Juubi which would be interesting. The only I fail to see in Tobi had one of Shisui's eye, but it was Itachi and Danzou which had these eyes. In the end Danzou destroyed Shisui's eye so Tobi couldn't use it.
> 
> Also I feel Rikudou's own sons should know the names of all tailed beasts. I can't see why they wouldn't know their names.



Yeah the Shisui's eye thing, was a sudden idea of me,i didn't think of Danzou at that moment. But due to the Uchiha masaker he has hundrets of eyes now, which he can use.
We also don't know about the sons relationship towards the tailed beasts.


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## Powergems (Apr 11, 2012)

Not certain if this was brought up but if not its definitely food for thought. 

Tobi and Kakashi are the only  Sharingan users thus far to display technique by bending the space/reality. I dont necessarily take the side of tobi = obito but it would be a decent argument for it. Otherwise if not, i can try to counter it by saying its likely that Zetsu/tobi/Madara Harvested Obito's other eye. What do you think of my theory or can it be countered by some *read chapter ###* response


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## Tasq21 (Apr 11, 2012)

^To be honest I wanna believe that Tobi's eye is Obito's but I don't see how somebody for example Madara found out that Obito's sharingan has the potencial for a MS... although if Obito got his MS while he was dying...hmm unlikly but still...



Raventhal said:


> Well one thing.  If Tobi was going to reveal his face it can't be anyone Sasuke would remember since he did or was going to show him his face.



I agree on this. And now that I think about it... Even if Sasuke saw his face I doubt he would believe he is Madara. I could swear Sasuke calls Tobi just Tobi all the time...


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## Escargon (Apr 11, 2012)

Tobi is made of zetsu, doesnt that mean hes some sort of a clone?

Kabuto wants one of those clones Tobi uses i guess.

Tobi is a clone of Madara, we will propably see his face 28th in that movie?


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 11, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tobi is made of zetsu, doesnt that mean hes some sort of a clone?
> 
> Kabuto wants one of those clones Tobi uses i guess.
> 
> Tobi is a clone of Madara, we will propably see his face 28th in that movie?



Eventhough Kishimoto creates the movie by himself, I don't think he will reveal the Identity of Tobi in the movie. The movies never affected the main plot, I don't think this will change, because it would disrupt the mangaversion of Naruto. -> there would be no end in it

I am still not convinced of the theory that Tobi is a clone or whatever. Why would be wear a mask, eventhough if everyone knows that he is "Madara" or whatever.


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## gloomygrim (Apr 11, 2012)

son_michael said:


> and it really bugs me when people classify obito as a worthless fodder. That worthless fodder has parallels to Naruto, a MANGEKYOU SHARINGAN which only comes from the strongest Uchiha and he is a key element in the whole teamwork/bonds concept in this story. Not to mention that his death was UNRESOLVED, we never saw him die and no you can't just assume he's dead because he was covered by rocks
> 
> Fact is he's a manga character and he was introduced for a reason. He had a mysterious death scene for a reason and people think he has something to do with tobi for many different reasons.
> 
> Case in point: Dan came back and by your logic, he was just some fodder for Tsunade's backstory.



ok ok no need to be tetchy lol.

Obito is fodder,  his existance is to back up kakashis story, dan is the same for tsunade,  come on you really think either of them really matter.  Tsunade's back story with dans death is just a reason she is like she is,  obito is why kakashi is like he is. His importance ends there, he is fodder.

his death being unresolved,  well theres enough unresolved deaths in the naruto verse for his to be about as meaningfull as the rest.  

how would he have minato and survived, controlled the kyubi, gained senju DNA, known about nagatos eyes, looks older than danzo and other reasons folks had said. He has been debunked as a no no to be tobi.  any theory is hammered by the facts,  unless he is a time traveler.  even thats been a theory lol.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 11, 2012)

So there is the question, how Madara could help Itachi to massacre the clan. The massacre is 54 years after Madaras attack with the kyuubi, so he must have been death and revived.
Maybe his Rinnegan plays a role? 
Furthermore Tobi appears the first time 4 years before the massacre and he also played a role at the massacre, which basically means that Madara and Tobi would have met at this time. Though I am still thinking that the moonseye's plan was created in Madara's lifetime.


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## Powerful Lord (Apr 11, 2012)

Yeah, the mooneye plan was probably created by Madara.


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## Mateush (Apr 11, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Though I am still thinking that the moonseye's plan was created in Madara's lifetime.



Of course, unless Tobi is older than Madara. Though I still wonder if the moonseye plan might be in the Uchiha tablet?


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 11, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Tobi is made of zetsu, doesnt that mean hes some sort of a clone?
> 
> Kabuto wants one of those clones Tobi uses i guess.
> 
> Tobi is a clone of Madara, we will propably see his face 28th in that movie?



Just because Tobi has some gooey white Zetsu stuff in his body, that doesn't automatically mean that he's a Zetsu clone. What if he incorporated some of Zetsu gooey stuff in his body for some unknown reason?

Also, do you not know how lame it would be if Tobi turned how to be a clone of Madara?



Crystaltiger said:


> Eventhough Kishimoto creates the movie by himself, I don't think he will reveal the Identity of Tobi in the movie. The movies never affected the main plot, I don't think this will change, because it would disrupt the mangaversion of Naruto. -> there would be no end in it
> 
> I am still not convinced of the theory that Tobi is a clone or whatever. Why would be wear a mask, eventhough if everyone knows that he is "Madara" or whatever.



I agree with this 100%.



Crystaltiger said:


> So there is the question, how Madara could help Itachi to massacre the clan. The massacre is 54 years after Madaras attack with the kyuubi, so he must have been death and revived.
> Maybe his Rinnegan plays a role?
> Furthermore Tobi appears the first time 4 years before the massacre and he also played a role at the massacre, which basically means that Madara and Tobi would have met at this time. Though I am still thinking that the moonseye's plan was created in Madara's lifetime.



Question is, who revived Madara?

And I agree with you that Tobi and Madara must have met somewhere and at sometime. Because if they didn't, how would they know each other and be working towards the same goal (The moon's eye plan)?



Powergems said:


> Not certain if this was brought up but if not its definitely food for thought.
> 
> Tobi and Kakashi are the only  Sharingan users thus far to display technique by bending the space/reality. I dont necessarily take the side of tobi = obito but it would be a decent argument for it. Otherwise if not, i can try to counter it by saying its likely that Zetsu/tobi/Madara Harvested Obito's other eye. What do you think of my theory or can it be countered by some *read chapter ###* response



Your theory needs to be more specific. Go more in depth with it.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 12, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Of course, unless Tobi is older than Madara. Though I still wonder if the moonseye plan might be in the Uchiha tablet?



I think Tobi is the older one of the both, because I still believe he is the older son of Rikudou.




HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Question is, who revived Madara?
> 
> And I agree with you that Tobi and Madara must have met somewhere and at sometime. Because if they didn't, how would they know each other and be working towards the same goal (The moon's eye plan)?


 
When assuming Tobi is the elder son of Rikudou he met Madara in his lifetime (moon's eye plan created by both of them). He would also be able to survive Madara. (He would posses the Rinnegan, Madara got it from him in his lifetime. Both of them use Rinnegan -> Pain could revive his other bodies, who had the Rinnegan, so Tobi could be able to revive another Rinnegan-user with his Rinnegan). He later gave it to Nagato for some reason. (Nagato got the Rinnegan in the 3rd Ninja World War. At exactly the same time Obito died. When Tobi took Obitos corpse to life on, there could be a coherence. Maybe Obito's body was to weak to hold the Rinnegan.


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## Chibason (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm still torn between some sort of Madara clone and the Elder son.

If I had my choice, he would be Sarutobi Sasuke, the most powerful and respected ninja of him time. A man who mentored the young warrior, Uchiha Madara, and used his son's reign as Hokage as a means to further his agenda...


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## NW (Apr 14, 2012)

*Concrete Proof That Tobi May In Fact Be Uchiha Obito*

Okay, I know many  don't think Tobi is Obito. Therefore, i shall give ultimate, definitive, undeniably incredible proof that the masked man, is in fact, Uchiha Obito.

   Firstly, the big "Tobi Reveal" is only exciting and climactic, if the readers AND the characters in the manga, recognize the man behind the mask. This will create a huge amount of shock value and  will come to wonder how Uchiha Obito came to be Tobi. Since Tobi's identity has been hidden so long, it makes sense that we should be shocked by whoever it is. Plus, we, the audience, and the characters in the manga, should recognize him. This will create emotional trauma in the characters. Now at this point I guess people will be saying, "Well, Naruto won't recognize Obito!" True, however, there are no logical candidates to be Tobi that Naruto would recognize anyway, so that argument is invalid. Plus, I think it would work better if  Naruto doesn't recognize Tobi's true identity, because this symbolizes Tobi and Naruto's clashing ideals, not whether Naruto recognizes him or not. As for who will recognize him, Kakashi, obviously, Lol.

   Since Obito was originally an exact parallel to Naruto, an evil Obito would therefore make the best final villain(besides Sasuke)for Naruto. Plus, what would be the shock of it being someone we don't instantly recognize? I mean, if it IS Obito, recognition should be easy as half his face should be crushed and half should be fine.

   A common argument against the Obito theory is "Why would Obito turn evil? He was good!" Well, my answer to that is, of course we don't know WHY he is doing this. If we did, that would be a give away of him being Tobi. His motivation will likely be revealed AFTER the reveal of him being Tobi.

   Another thing: go to Naruto chapter 515 and go to page 3. it is a color page with the Konoha Eleven in war uniforms. Looking above Naruto is an enlarged picture of Tobi's head/mask. If you look carefully through the eyeholes, you will see that under the right side of his face(the side with his sharingan) there are wrinkles/scars and on the other side, no such wrinkles/scars are visible. Now why would Kishi show that deep into one of his mask holes, and not the other? 

Don't believe me? Here's the link:  here

   Something else that's suspicious is that Kishi has never explained how Rin died or how Kakashi got his mangekyo, when he could have easily have had Kakashi explain how he got mangekyo when he first got it and tell how Rin died in the databook. We are missing a major flashback! And we will most likely get it eventually, but it has to occur at a time that makes sense and has something to do with what's happening around it. Tobi being Obito, would make the most sense to be what triggers this flashback.

And, in regards to Tobi's mask I find it strange how he picked orange of all colors, especially since very few characters in this manga wear orange. You'd think he would choose a more threatening color. It seems more like a personal preference if you ask me.

   Here's one more thing. You know how Kishi very often incorporates Japanese mythology into his writing, right. Well, here's a cool little piece of information that I found on a site:

        "--------------Mythology in Japan-----------------
First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, il'll keep it short, so bear with me:


-------------------Izanagi------------------ [Kami/kamui]
-----------------------l-----------------------
Amaterasu-----Susanoo------Tsukoyomi
============================
--------------------Rinne - 6 paths of "struggle"
-----------------------l-------------------------
--------------------Nehan - Enlightment------


Notes on Izanagi: As you know, the God(Kami) Izanagi created the three gods Amaterasu(Sun God), Susanoo(Fighting God) and Tsukoyomi (Moon God) by wiping dirt from his eye's and nose, which he got when traveling in the underworld yomi and witnessing its horror (Lost his wife).

Manga relevance: Izanagi created those three gods while experiencing something terrible, which correlates to Mangekyo sharingan activating when experiencing something horrible. 
With MS you will then be able to use these three abilities.

Rinnegan: Rinnegan obviously comes from the term Rinne(samsara), which revolves the 6 forms of death and rebirth, the worlds constant struggle continues struggling with no escape but one: Enlightment!
==>You may only escape this terrifying struggle by finally understanding the world and all 6 paths, you will finally find absolute peace.
Which is called Nehan. So will we see some Nehan action in in the ending for this manga? Possibly.

Notes on Kamui: Kakashi though has shown no ability to use these three techniques, but the ability Kamui, which relates to the term "god" itself. 
Why? A very interesting question. Possible answers are that he isn't an Uchiha or because he didn't get MS through "horrible" means, or something else entirely.

Notes on Tobi:He himself has not shown the ability to use Amaterasu and Co. Which means he hasn't got MS, but then how is he gonna accomplish the Moon's Eye Plan without Tsukoyomi? His reason for Sasuke?
Or does he have MS, but only the ability Kamui like Kakashi? Why? Is he not an Uchiha either or is there perhaps another reason?

Why do i tell you this? Because by examining old myths and symbols, we might predict the outcome of the manga or identity's. 
Did you know of the myth of the 8 headed snake Orochi that got killed by Susanoo? Or the myth of Jiraiya the toad hermit that was in love with Tsunade the slug princess?etc.


Now the interesting part:
In japanese prehistory there are a lot of myths and symbols, and i present one in particular.

Symbol behind one open, one closed eye:
Ancient figures are often depicted with a right eye open and a left one closed, it means "change", light and darkness, as the open eye means full moon and the closed eye means new moon.
The lunar cycle was the only long term means of observing time.So characters that have one eye symbolize change and time, darkness and light.
(Remember Kamui, space/time jutsu)

There are several Japanese figures with two faces pointing away from each other, one side depicting a right eye open, a left wounded eye with a diagonal cut, sometimes crying.
The other face either has no real face depicted with eyes at all, or simply a close left eye.
These one open, one closed eye figures all show spirals on the sides of their heads or on other body parts.

Now, i don't think i must point out the resemblance to Kakashi and his left vertical wounded eye, and to Tobi's spiral mask.
Tobi originally only showed one eye, of course this was intended symbolism of the Moon and in my opinion, the "change" in Obito. What was very interesting, was Tobi using Izanagi with his left eye, closing it forever.
Also the fact that they both show Space/time abilities, while both having one eye showing, is a remarkable coincidence. 

When remembering the MS ability Kamui, they might indeed share another "plain" of MS power than Madara, Itachi and Sasuke. A form of special MS, only achieved through shared grieve and by sharing the sharingan. Not by killing your best friend, but by something else.


I don't really regard this as definite proof, but as new angles to look at Tobi theories and Kamui - MS theories, though i find these symbols to link Tobi and Kakashi together, especially regarding the different forms of MS abilities.


Source:
----
Japanese prehistory: The material and spiritual culture of the Jomon period.
written by Nelly Naumann." 

 Hope you liked my take on Tobi being Obito  Hopefully, if you managed to read all that, it has made you reconsider some things.


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## MYJC (Apr 14, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Also, in an interview, Kishimoto promised "instant recognition" of the face behind the mask.



No offense, but do you have a link to this interview? I've never read that anywhere and I thought I'd read all his recent interviews..


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 14, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Hope you liked my take on Obito  Hopefully, if you managed to read all that, it has made you reconsider some things.



I managed to read it all and I really like the "japanese history"-part, as well as the well-known kamui-theory.
I don't know, if you read my theory, but I am also of the opinion that it is Obito's body. But only his body. Why? Because ALL Obito-theories cannot explain how Obito would be able to fight the 4th Hokage, because Tobi's attack at Konoha with the Kyuubi was exactly one year after the death of Obito. We also saw Tobi in the recaps (Naruto talking to Minato) and his body was as tall as Tobi's and all that stuff, but Tobi would have been 14 years in that fight. And I cannot believe that a 14-year-old can face Minato, or control the Kyuubi, even if his Sharingan maybe strong (and he has only one site Sharingan!)
So he must have been controlled.


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## NW (Apr 14, 2012)

MYJC said:


> No offense, but do you have a link to this interview? I've never read that anywhere and I thought I'd read all his recent interviews..



Hmmm..... I've searched all over and can't find it anywhere... I heard it from alot of different sources but I never checked for the actual interview. Oh, well. I guess I'll go edit that outta my theory.


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## NW (Apr 14, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I managed to read it all and I really like the "japanese history"-part, as well as the well-known kamui-theory.
> I don't know, if you read my theory, but I am also of the opinion that it is Obito's body. But only his body. Why? Because ALL Obito-theories cannot explain how Obito would be able to fight the 4th Hokage, because Tobi's attack at Konoha with the Kyuubi was exactly one year after the death of Obito. We also saw Tobi in the recaps (Naruto talking to Minato) and his body was as tall as Tobi's and all that stuff, but Tobi would have been 14 years in that fight. And I cannot believe that a 14-year-old can face Minato, or control the Kyuubi, even if his Sharingan maybe strong (and he has only one site Sharingan!)
> So he must have been controlled.


 
Yeah, you have a point. Though, I think Madara may have still been alive and rescued him and trained Obito. Anyone trained by Uchiha Madara would be that badass within a year, lol! As for why Madara would rescue Obito, I dunno. That's something that could be further elaborated upon if Tobi is revealed to be Obito. Maybe Madara sensed that he could manipulate him or something...... And, I read your Older Son theory. Very plausible!


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 14, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Another thing: go to Naruto chapter 515 and go to page 4. it is a color page with the Konoha Eleven in war uniforms. Looking above Naruto is an enlarged picture of Tobi's head/mask. If you look carefully through the eyeholes, you will see that under the right side of his face(the side with his sharingan) there are wrinkles/scars and on the other side, no such wrinkles/scars are visible. Now why would Kishi show that deep into one of his mask holes, and not the other?



Actually, if you look really really closely, you can see that under his Rinnegan eye there are wrinkles/scars as well. They're very faint and not as visible as ones under the Sharingan eye, but look at the image again and you will notice that there are wrinkles/scars under it. Or maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. Oh yeah, even zoom in the image if you have to.


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## NW (Apr 14, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Actually, if you look really really closely, you can see that under his Rinnegan eye there are wrinkles/scars as well. They're very faint and not as visible as ones under the Sharingan eye, but look at the image again and you will notice that there are wrinkles/scars under it. Or maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. Oh yeah, even zoom in the image if you have to.



Well, I looked at the image again and nuthin. I think that you're just seeing what you want to see since you don't really believe this theory. I'm sure you could say the same for me but I really don't see anything under the rinnegan eye. Maybe it's just the way it was shaded in and you may have perceived it wrong. What I'm worried about however is why they were so prominent under the sharingan and not visible under the rinnegan. If you can show me proof besides that image that Tobi has wrinkles/scars on the other side of his face, then I'll believe he's not Obito.(The anime doesn't count.)


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 14, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, I looked at the image again and nuthin. I think that you're just seeing what you want to see since you don't really believe this theory. I'm sure you could say the same for me but I really don't see anything under the rinnegan eye. Maybe it's just the way it was shaded in and you may have perceived it wrong. What I'm worried about however is why they were so prominent under the sharingan and not visible under the rinnegan. If you can show me proof besides that image that Tobi has wrinkles/scars on the other side of his face, then I'll believe he's not Obito.(The anime doesn't count.)



Never mind. I think I just perceived it wrong. And I didn't say that to counter your theory or give you the thought to think that I didn't believe it. I don't believe any "Tobi is Obito" theory (I used to, but then I realized how many flaws it had) and I hate the theory as well. In addition to that, I think the theory makes no sense and is very flawed. IMO, it's the most overused theory ever. I said that comment because I actually thought that there were wrinkles/scars under his Rinnegan. That was my observation. I didn't say it to prove you wrong.


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## NW (Apr 14, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Never mind. I think I just perceived it wrong. And I didn't say that to counter your theory or give you the thought to think that I didn't believe it. I don't believe any "Tobi is Obito" theory (I used to, but then I realized how many flaws it had) and I hate the theory as well. In addition to that, I think the theory makes no sense and is very flawed. IMO, it's the most overused theory ever. I said that comment because I actually thought that there were wrinkles/scars under his Rinnegan. That was my observation. I didn't say it to prove you wrong.




Oh, Lol. Sorry. I can understand that you don't like the theory. Everyone has they're own opinions. And, What do you mean by flaws? If there's anything you don't get about Tobi being Obito just ask me and I can clear it up.


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## Talis (Apr 14, 2012)

I am still thinking that Kishi was hinting us to something with Obito's S/T side eye ''there was something in my eye''.


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## NW (Apr 14, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I am still thinking that Kishi was hinting us to something with Obito's S/T side eye ''there was something in my eye''.



But how could Obito have awakened Mangekyo at that time, when He awakened his sharingan after that? I also think Tobi is Obito(read my theory above) but i don't particularly believe that Kishi was really hinting at anything there. What does make sense though, is when Obito told Kakashi that he'll "See the future together with him" and in his fight with Konan, he said 'I was the one who won the battle with hashirama by seeing into the future!". i don't know how these are related but I think it was just a completely random clue Kishi threw in just for the heck of it


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## MYJC (Apr 14, 2012)

I still doubt Tobi is Obito. For one, Madara knows Tobi. Assuming Madara died when Nagato was young (he knew about Nagato and seemed to expect Nagato would revive him) then Obito would be too young, as he'd be younger than Nagato and Konan (who are/were probably late 30s-ish). Plus, when Tobi was fighting Konan, he called her a "child". Doesn't make much sense if Tobi is younger than her. 

That said I could see Tobi using Obito's eye. After all, he collects Sharingans, so it's not a stretch to think he ran into a dying/dead Obito and decided to take his eye.


IMO, the hints point toward Tobi being some sort of Zetsu-like clone of Madara (with Hasharima's DNA) that Madara created to carry out the Moon's Eye Plan. Consider:


We KNOW that at least one of Tobi's arms is made of Zetsu goo


It's implied that Madara knows who Tobi is, and they had some sort of plan. Makes sense if Madara created Tobi to carry out the Moon's Eye Plan.


Tobi says he's "no one". That's something a clone would say - with Madara back in the picture he has no identity anymore. 


Tobi says the only thing he cares about is completing the Moon's Eye Plan. Makes sense if that's what he was created to do. 


Kabuto tells Madara that he's "unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned". He says it right there folks, "fake Madara". In other words we've been told who (or rather what) Tobi is already.

So yeah, that's my best guess. I think the real Madara died when Nagato was young, but before he did he created Tobi (and probably Zetsu too) to carry out the Moon's Eye Plan and make sure Nagato revived him with Rinne Tensei. Tobi may have his own plans though.


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## NW (Apr 14, 2012)

MYJC said:


> I still doubt Tobi is Obito. For one, Madara knows Tobi. Assuming Madara died when Nagato was young (he knew about Nagato and seemed to expect Nagato would revive him) then Obito would be too young, as he'd be younger than Nagato and Konan (who are/were probably late 30s-ish). Plus, when Tobi was fighting Konan, he called her a "child". Doesn't make much sense if Tobi is younger than her.
> 
> That said I could see Tobi using Obito's eye. After all, he collects Sharingans, so it's not a stretch to think he ran into a dying/dead Obito and decided to take his eye.




You're saying that Nagato, Konan, and Yahiko were 30-ish yet, if Obito were still alive he's be in his 30s as well. So, the timeline can still work.

Also, the white Zetsu stuff that comes from Tobi could be the Zetsu goo he used to fix his arm. i doubt Tobi is just a Zetsu clone cuz when he fought minato and his hand came off, you can see actual blood coming out of it.

I believe that the "fake Madara" kabuto was talking about was actually Black Zetsu. since white zetsu is(or should I say "was" lol) made from hashirama's DNA, then it would make sense if Black Zetsu was made from Madara's DNA. Black Zetsu could have been the one who Madara wanted to revive him by watching over Nagato. Black Zetsu IS more fighting based, right. Since Zetsu can record things, he could have recorded all those things that happened to Madara and showed them to Obito.

    Seems like a long shot but I can't help but feel that zetsu plays a very big role in all of this........


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## Palpatine (Apr 14, 2012)

I don't have a problem with the Obito theory. But man, he must have seen some fucked up shit to turn out like he is now.

I personally think Tobi _is_ using Madara's original body, having made numerous modifications to it. 

The main questions is who's spirit/essence it is currently inside the vessel. I could see Obito cutting his hair to look more like his original body. I am still pulling for my theory of the Juubi's mind inside though.


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## T-Bag (Apr 14, 2012)

obito....lol ppl still on that shit?


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> obito....lol ppl still on that shit?



    At least try to give some reasons why you don't think he's Obito

 Also, read my theory. it's the third post down on this page. Maybe it will clear some things up for you.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Also, the white Zetsu stuff that comes from Tobi could be the Zetsu goo he used to fix his arm. i doubt Tobi is just a Zetsu clone cuz when he fought minato and his hand came off, you can see actual blood coming out of it.
> 
> I believe that the "fake Madara" kabuto was talking about was actually Black Zetsu.



I don't support the "Tobi is a Zetsu clone" theory but I can say that he can still be a Zetsu clone. Just because blood came out of his hand in his fight with Minato, that doesn't mean he can't be a Zetsu clone. Maybe it's a mix of the gooey Zetsu stuff and real human parts and blood.

Also, I'm pretty sure Kabuto was referring to Tobi when he said the "Fake Madara" because he knows that Tobi is not Madara and he wouldn't say Madara because that would produce confusion between Tobi and the real Uchiha Madara.


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## Talis (Apr 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> But how could Obito have awakened Mangekyo at that time, when He awakened his sharingan after that? I also think Tobi is Obito(read my theory above) but i don't particularly believe that Kishi was really hinting at anything there. What does make sense though, is when Obito told Kakashi that he'll "See the future together with him" and in his fight with Konan, he said 'I was the one who won the battle with hashirama by seeing into the future!". i don't know how these are related but I think it was just a completely random clue Kishi threw in just for the heck of it


Well he litteraly lost his friends and life like he said it with his own mouth, but the real question is if it is possible to awaken the MS with just 2 tomoed Sharingan?


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## Talis (Apr 15, 2012)

MYJC said:


> I still doubt Tobi is Obito. For one, Madara knows Tobi. Assuming Madara died when Nagato was young (he knew about Nagato and seemed to expect Nagato would revive him) then Obito would be too young, as he'd be younger than Nagato and Konan (who are/were probably late 30s-ish). Plus, when Tobi was fighting Konan, he called her a "child". Doesn't make much sense if Tobi is younger than her.
> 
> That said I could see Tobi using Obito's eye. After all, he collects Sharingans, so it's not a stretch to think he ran into a dying/dead Obito and decided to take his eye.
> 
> ...


1: The first theory just support the Tobito theory more lol, and Shisui's also.
2: Tobi knew Madara also, maybe Madara was just a clone created by Tobi. 
3: Tobi also said that he was Madara, and hey c'mon NF just don't ignore me, he clearly said ''i am nobody, _*''I don't want to be anybody''. 
Now why the heck does he want to be an anybody if he is already a ''nobody''?
*_4: Kabuto also called Tobi as Madara when edo Madara wasn't revealed._*
*_


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

Kabuto doesn't know either who Tobi is. All he knows is that he cannot be the real Madara, because he owns his edo version.
To previous theory: Obito is as old as Nagato, Konan and Yahiko.




MYJC said:


> IMO, the hints point toward Tobi being some sort of Zetsu-like clone of Madara (with Hasharima's DNA) that Madara created to carry out the Moon's Eye Plan. Consider:
> 
> 
> We KNOW that at least one of Tobi's arms is made of Zetsu goo
> ...



All these points all fit in the "Elder-son"-theory too, and prove nothing.


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## Talis (Apr 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Kabuto doesn't know either who Tobi is. All he knows is that he cannot be the real Madara, because he owns his edo version.
> To previous theory: Obito is as old as Nagato, Konan and Yahiko.
> 
> 
> ...


Obito fits perfectly if the long haired masked man truly is the real Madara which he is obviously, he even had these bandages on his chest while the real Madara died via a sword cut through his chest.
But this forum will fail extremely hard.
As soon as Edo Madara goes to Itachi they will recognize each other, the forum will accept the long haired masked man to be the real Madara and they all will be like ''Kisame said that the long haired real Madara had the same face as Tobi, yeahy'', and after it he will be revealed as Obito and the forum will receive a *Fatal* *Critical Hit! *


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

I also think the longhaired guy is Madara, but that doesn't proove that it is REALLY Obito.
As allready mentioned 1000 times, Obito was 14 years old when Tobi fought Minato.
NOONE can fight Minato at the age of 14.
So it's Obito's body, who is controlled. Who could controll Obito?? The elder son!


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## Talis (Apr 15, 2012)

You don't believe him to be Obito due his age.
What about elder son which is like over 1000 years old.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

Read my theory, I explained how he could have survived. But there is no plausible explanation for a 14-year-old fighting the 4th hokage.


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## Talis (Apr 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Read my theory, I explained how he could have survived. But there is no plausible explanation for a 14-year-old fighting the 4th hokage.


Why not, and he should be around 16.
Anyways, theres enough hints that a fodder can controle the Kyuubi, add Senju dna on an Uchiha and he has the power to controle the Kyuubi like Tobi himself said when he saw Danzou's Senjuchiha Dna's.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Why not, and he should be around 16.
> Anyways, theres enough hints that a fodder can controle the Kyuubi, add Senju dna on an Uchiha and he has the power to controle the Kyuubi like Tobi himself said when he saw Danzou's Senjuchiha Dna's.



Nope dude he is 14.
He died at the age of 13, 13 years before story starts. Tobi attack on Konoha is 12 years before story starts: 13-12=1  13+1=14 
Assuming he could controle the Kyuubi, he still wouldn't stand a chance vs Minato. He is said to be one of the strongest shinobi ever, and I don't believe Obito could train enough in only one year to beat him. (He was kinda weak when he died, he lost to 2 no name ninjas, who where killed by Minato without any problem)


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## Talis (Apr 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Nope dude he is 14.
> He died at the age of 13, 13 years before story starts. Tobi attack on Konoha is 12 years before story starts: 13-12=1  13+1=14
> Assuming he could controle the Kyuubi, he still wouldn't stand a chance vs Minato. He is said to be one of the strongest shinobi ever, and I don't believe Obito could train enough in only one year to beat him. (He was kinda weak when he died, he lost to 2 no name ninjas, who where killed by Minato without any problem)


Kakashi's age part 1:26-27 -12= 14-15 and i am pretty sure Kakashi was much younger then Obito when he promoted to Genin and became in Obito's team. 
Anyways wheres it confirmed that he died at 13 year? I missed that part.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Kakashi's age part 1:26-27 -12= 14-15 and i am pretty sure Kakashi was much younger then Obito when he promoted to Genin and became in Obito's team.
> Anyways wheres it confirmed that he died at 13 year? I missed that part.



It's confirmed in the guidebooks published by Masashi Kishimoto, in which he explains jutsus, characterizes characters, etc.
There are 3 databooks released. Book 2 (To no Sho,  Naruto [Secret: Scroll of Fighting] Character Official Databook) features the character profile of Obito. In these profiles Kishimoto also provides birthdates, as well as the fact that Obito was 13 years old, when he was smashed by that rock. It's confirmed by the Naruto-author himself, so I think we can take this as a given fact, without needing any mathematics. But if u want to calculate: Kakashi is as old as Obito is. (It's also mentioned in one of these books, as well as in Kakashi Gaiden, that he was 13 years old.) So he is 13 years old back then and is 26 at the start of Narutostory (he is now 30 -> 4 years training/Naruto Shippuden time skip). So Obito's death was 13 years, before the story starts.


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## MYJC (Apr 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 1: The first theory just support the Tobito theory more lol, and Shisui's also.
> 2: Tobi knew Madara also, maybe Madara was just a clone created by Tobi.
> 3: Tobi also said that he was Madara, and hey c'mon NF just don't ignore me, he clearly said ''i am nobody, _*''I don't want to be anybody''.
> Now why the heck does he want to be an anybody if he is already a ''nobody''?
> ...



Like other people have said, the timeline doesn't fit for Tobito. When Tobi attacked the village on the day Naruto was born, Obito would've only been 14. Tobi was the size of a grown man. Plus, if he was Obito then he should already have known about the 4th Hokages techniques. Plus, why would Obito be evil anyway?

Shisui? Eh, not impossible I guess, but I dunno. How much older was Shisui than Itachi? Because Itachi was only like 4 or 5 when Tobi attacked, so Shisui would have to be a lot older. And even this, I don't think it makes sens because Itachi says that the last time he saw Shisui, Danzou had taken an eye. This was long after Tobi attacked the village (unless that was a different person). Why would Shisui let Danzo take his eye...and give itachi his other eye if he was Tobi?



Crystaltiger said:


> Kabuto doesn't know either who Tobi is. All he knows is that he cannot be the real Madara, because he owns his edo version.
> To previous theory: Obito is as old as Nagato, Konan and Yahiko.
> 
> 
> ...



Kabuto probably does know who Tobi is. After all he was aware that Tobi and Madara had some sort of plan, and warns Madara that he was "unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned". 

And Obitp would be younger than Nagato and Konan, though not way younger. He would be the same age as Kakashi, 30. Nagato and Konan were in their late 30s at least, there was a timeline thread on this.



Jiraiya trained Nagato/Yakiko/Konan before he trained Minato. He left them when they were around 10, which is also how old Minato was when he graduated the academy. That implies that Nagato and Konan are at least a few years older than Minato would be if he were alive. 

Assuming Minato had Naruto in his early 20s, he'd be in his mid-late 30s, and Konan/Nagato would be couple years older. So Konan and Nagato are late 30s-ish, maybe very early 40s. Konan is hot for her age though.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Like other people have said, the timeline doesn't fit for Tobito. When Tobi attacked the village on the day Naruto was born, Obito would've only been 14. Tobi was the size of a grown man. Plus, if he was Obito then he should already have known about the 4th Hokages techniques. Plus, why would Obito be evil anyway?



Only half-true. Obito and Tobi are nearly of the same size. Obito being 154.2 cm, Minato was about 179.2 cm. We can see in the recap, that Tobi was smaller than Minato (ca. one head-size, which could be about 20 cm). So Tobi was as tall as Obito. The rest of your facts make sense, but if Obitos body was controled by someone, it could be possible, because even if he was 14 the controller could fight.



MYJC said:


> Kabuto probably does know who Tobi is. After all he was aware that Tobi and Madara had some sort of plan, and warns Madara that he was "unsure if the fake Madara will act as planned".



I doubt that he knows it, otherwise he would use this knowledge against Tobi.


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Obito fits perfectly if the long haired masked man truly is the real Madara which he is obviously, he even had these bandages on his chest while the real Madara died via a sword cut through his chest.
> But this forum will fail extremely hard.
> As soon as Edo Madara goes to Itachi they will recognize each other, the forum will accept the long haired masked man to be the real Madara and they all will be like ''Kisame said that the long haired real Madara had the same face as Tobi, yeahy'', and after it he will be revealed as Obito and the forum will receive a *Fatal* *Critical Hit! *



Actually, it's possible that the long haired masked man is also Obito. I don't see any reason that he couldn't have grown his hair that long when we have characters like Choji and Hinata.


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Kakashi is as old as Obito is. (It's also mentioned in one of these books, as well as in Kakashi Gaiden, that he was 13 years old.) So he is 13 years old back then and is 26 at the start of Narutostory (he is now 30 -> 4 years training/Naruto Shippuden time skip). So Obito's death was 13 years, before the story starts.



Could you give me a link to where that is stated? I don't recall Kakashi's age during gaiden ever being officially stated. Considering Obito graduated the academy at age 9, and Kakashi graduated at age 5, meaning that there would be a 4 year age gap between them. So, if Kakashi was 14 during Kurama's attck, Obito would be around 18.


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## Raventhal (Apr 15, 2012)

There is almost no way that Obito is Tobi.  Tobi by Narutoverse looks 50-60+ since that seems to be the ages when characters are drawn with wrinkles.  

90 percent of characters fit age range body types.  Obito would still likely be in the 10-14 range body type which he would be too small.  He is too young to give Nagato his eyes or influence the creation of Akatsuki.  

We have yet to see Tobi deactivate his Sharingan so there the possibility that he is no Uchiha nor his eye.


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> There is almost no way that Obito is Tobi.  Tobi by Narutoverse looks 50-60+ since that seems to be the ages when characters are drawn with wrinkles.
> 
> 90 percent of characters fit age range body types.  Obito would still likely be in the 10-14 range body type which he would be too small.  He is too young to give Nagato his eyes or influence the creation of Akatsuki.
> 
> We have yet to see Tobi deactivate his Sharingan so there the possibility that he is no Uchiha nor his eye.



    Those wrinkles on Tobi's face could actually be because his face was crushed by a rock. That is more likely because Tobi's "wrinkles" don't look like how wrinkles normally look in Kishi's art style. For one, he does not have those "crow feet" on the sides of his eye, not all old people have this in the naruto series, but it's still something to consider. He also does not have the heavy, under eyelids. Most importantly, he does not have the bent bent angle going across both sides of his jaw. It is more plausible that his face looks like that because of the boulder that fell on Obito.

    And, one more thing. Madara was most likely the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan.  I don't know why you assume Tobi did it when he said it while he was posing as Madara. it's like people just pick and choose things just to disprove a theory they don't like.....


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

I am starting to think that Tobi could also be Uchiha Shisui. Seriously: read the theory at this link. It's got some good evidence:


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## FallenCloud (Apr 15, 2012)

I think it is someone from the Uzumaki clan.


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## Raventhal (Apr 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Those wrinkles on Tobi's face could actually be because his face was crushed by a rock. That is more likely because Tobi's "wrinkles" don't look like how wrinkles normally look in Kishi's art style. For one, he does not have those "crow feet" on the sides of his eye, not all old people have this in the naruto series, but it's still something to consider. He also does not have the heavy, under eyelids. Most importantly, he does not have the bent bent angle going across both sides of his jaw. It is more plausible that his face looks like that because of the boulder that fell on Obito.
> 
> And, one more thing. Madara was most likely the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan.  I don't know why you assume Tobi did it when he said it while he was posing as Madara. it's like people just pick and choose things just to disprove a theory they don't like.....



Still too many age related things and motive.  If he wasn't around to learn from Marada how does he know so much about him?  How did he progress and grow so much physically and skill wise when he would likely be injured pretty badly if he survived?  

It could be him but seems very, very unlikely.


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

FallenCloud said:


> I think it is someone from the Uzumaki clan.



    That would be pretty cool. And a nice break from all these friggin Uchihas. However, I thought all Uzumakis (besides naruto) had red hair. Also, there is no known member from the Uzumaki clan who Tobi could be. I doubt that Kishi would make Tobi a new character after all this suspense. In fact, Tobi seemed shocked that Kushina survived having Kurama extracted from her. If he was an Uzumaki, he should have already known about the Uzumaki clan's strong life force. 

    Overall, Tobi being an Uzumaki would be a cool twist, but there's no plausible way for it to happen.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Could you give me a link to where that is stated? I don't recall Kakashi's age during gaiden ever being officially stated. Considering Obito graduated the academy at age 9, and Kakashi graduated at age 5, meaning that there would be a 4 year age gap between them. So, if Kakashi was 14 during Kurama's attck, Obito would be around 18.



I cannot find an online version of To no sho  But you could visit naruto.wikia.com. As well the "To no sho"-site, as the "Obito" site, where his age 13 is stated. Of course this could be writen by anyone, but it's a true fact based on the To no Sho, which I unfortunatly cannot prove, because I don't find an online version -.-
It's said that Kakashi became a Jonin with 13 years. And that's Kakashi Gaiden. I don't remember if it was said there or in "Rin no Sho", the first book, featuring the main characters, and information about them.


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Still too many age related things and motive. If he wasn't around to learn from Marada how does he know so much about him? How did he progress and grow so much physically and skill wise when he would likely be injured pretty badly if he survived?
> 
> It could be him but seems very, very unlikely.


 
Finally, someone who gives some good evidence against the theory.:amazed

I agree that there are some things that don't make sense, but that's the twist. As everyone knows, We can only make theories on Tobi's identity based on facts that we already have from the manga. Things that don't make sense will all make sense when Tobi's identity is revealed and we see his backstory. 
This is fiction, so anything can happen

It's just as Kishi said, "All will be revealed when the mask comes off"

And, that's why I still believe in this theory. Because Kishi can do whatever the hell he wants 

And, about that age gap with Minato. Have you seen how tall Kakashi and Guy were? they looked about as Tall as Minato. Obito might have been that tall too if he were still alive.



Crystaltiger said:


> I cannot find an online version of To no sho  But you could visit naruto.wikia.com. As well the "To no sho"-site, as the "Obito" site, where his age 13 is stated. Of course this could be writen by anyone, but it's a true fact based on the To no Sho, which I unfortunatly cannot prove, because I don't find an online version -.-
> It's said that Kakashi became a Jonin with 13 years. And that's Kakashi Gaiden. I don't remember if it was said there or in "Rin no Sho", the first book, featuring the main characters, and information about them.


 
Assuming what you said was true, then that would mean that Kakashi became a jonin within 13 years. It was never specifically said that he became a jonin AT the age of 13. 

Also, I KNOW Obito was 13 during Gaiden, but there is nothing i can find that SPECIFICALLY states kakashi was. 

Don't take this offensively, i'm just stating my opinion. lol.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Assuming what you said was true, then that would mean that Kakashi became a jonin within 13 years. It was never specifically said that he became a jonin AT the age of 13.
> 
> Also, I KNOW Obito was 13 during Gaiden, but there is nothing i can find that SPECIFICALLY states kakashi was.
> 
> Don't take this offensively, i'm just stating my opinion. lol.



I understand you quite well, but if you know that Obito was 13, then what are we arguing about? ;D He was 13 in Gaiden, and Gaiden played 13 years ago. Kakashi was 26 when the story started, so he was 13 back then too.
I looked it up. It's said in Rin to Sho, that Kakashi became a jonin at the age of 13.


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## Revolution (Apr 15, 2012)

Whoever it is will continue to give Sasuke reason to destroy Konoha


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I understand you quite well, but if you know that Obito was 13, then what are we arguing about? ;D He was 13 in Gaiden, and Gaiden played 13 years ago. Kakashi was 26 when the story started, so he was 13 back then too.
> I looked it up. It's said in Rin to Sho, that Kakashi became a jonin at the age of 13.


 
Lol, ok. I get it now. I still think it might be Obito though because it's unkown how time passes in Tobi's sharingan dimension. it's possible that, if Madara was still alive, He trained Obito in the sharingan dimension. Sure, it's out there, but this is Kishi we're talking about.



loool3 said:


> Well he litteraly lost his friends and life like he said it with his own mouth, but the real question is if it is possible to awaken the MS with just 2 tomoed Sharingan?


 
I don't really think it matters what level your sharingan is. Obito could have achieved MS and after that, he trained his two tomoe sharingan until he got the third tomoe.



Dolohov27 said:


> Tobi is Setsuna, a Uchiha who was introduce right when Tobi claim to be Madara, which we know now to be a lie.


 
Why exactly do you think that Tobi is Setsuna? The only thing he's got going for him is that his name means moment, or instant, or painful or oppresive. And that he plotted against the second hokage and was seen at Madara's grave. That's definately not enough to mean that he's Tobi. He was only mentioned once and he wasn't even named in the manga. Plus, his hair color and eyeshape is different. So, please feel free to elaborate on why he could be Tobi. I'm not trying to be a jerk and bash your theory but seriously, how can he be Tobi????


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## Talis (Apr 15, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Finally, someone who gives some good evidence against the theory.:amazed
> 
> I agree that there are some things that don't make sense, but that's the twist. As everyone knows, We can only make theories on Tobi's identity based on facts that we already have from the manga. Things that don't make sense will all make sense when Tobi's identity is revealed and we see his backstory.
> This is fiction, so anything can happen
> ...


Theres nothing to prove that Tobito can't be true just because of his seize, seize really doesn't matter anything to Kish; this
13-15 years old Itachi tall as 20 years old Kisame.

Naruto and his dad: this 

this

On top of that people forget the most important part, Tobi's body is merged with Zetsu, it easly could give boost to his seize.


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## NW (Apr 15, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres nothing to prove that Tobito can't be true just because of his seize, seize really doesn't matter anything to Kish; this
> 13-15 years old Itachi tall as 20 years old Kisame.
> 
> Naruto and his dad: this
> ...


 
I never said that Obito couldn't be that tall. In fact, I said he COULD be that tall. It's not like I'm against the theory or anything. In fact, I'm a strong believer of it. But, I don't really think Zetsu goo makes a person taller. Tobi's only been shown to have it in his arms.

Lol, I wonder if if Kishi when Kishi first introduced tobi, he knew how much of a shitstorm he was going to cause?


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 16, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Lol, I wonder if if Kishi when Kishi first introduced tobi, he knew how much of a shitstorm he was going to cause?



I am sure he did. I am sure it was his aim to cause this, it's the same story for all mangakas. I don't know if you are familiar with Detective Conan, but there it is exactly the same thing for the character of Akai. Or the question in One Piece: What is the One Piece?
But that's just off topic. I am pretty sure, he knows quite well what he created.
Maybe he even reads japanese forums to amuse himself with the craziest ideas, or enjoy the discussions about Tobi's real identity.
I am sure he would be glad to read this discussion. It's also great that there are different opinions on who he is. It would be quite boring, if we all would believe your Obito-Theory, or all would believe my Elder-Son-Theory, or Deadweight's Shisui-Theory, as well as the other thousands of theories.
I wouldn't be here to read this forum, if everyone had the same opinion.
I am here to read other opinions, as well as convince people of my theory


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I am sure he did. I am sure it was his aim to cause this, it's the same story for all mangakas. I don't know if you are familiar with Detective Conan, but there it is exactly the same thing for the character of Akai. Or the question in One Piece: What is the One Piece?
> But that's just off topic. I am pretty sure, he knows quite well what he created.
> Maybe he even reads japanese forums to amuse himself with the craziest ideas, or enjoy the discussions about Tobi's real identity.
> I am sure he would be glad to read this discussion. It's also great that there are different opinions on who he is. It would be quite boring, if we all would believe your Obito-Theory, or all would believe my Elder-Son-Theory, or Deadweight's Shisui-Theory, as well as the other thousands of theories.
> ...



    Lol, I agree man. it would be boring if everyone believed one theory. I never thought about the possiblility that Kishi might be reading all this and laughing his heart out.

It's great that everyone believes different theories because that's what makes it fun to debate about things.


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## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

*Tobi = Kagami*

Kishi wouldnt introduce a named Uchiha for no reason, not in that situation... Kagami was introduced when Danzo died, in a flashback where he was part of team Tobirama... thats right, *Tobi*-rama, for no reason? give me a break

Kagami fits the timeline perfectly, no one can deny this... Kagami is old enough to have been alive pre-Konoha and to have had contact with Madara himself

then theres the fact that Danzo was actually part of the Yahiko-Nagato-Karin ambush, *coincidence?* give me a break.... Tobi must have been involved somehow, and theres your connection right there -- Tobi knew what Danzo was up to and tried to have him killed by throwing him at the Rinnegan

but how could Tobi have manipulated Danzo into that situation in the first place? by knowing Danzo as a teammate for many years, thats how


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

Also, has anyone noticed that when Tobi is fixing his arm in chapter 468, when you look at the RIGHT side of his face, it's all messed up, but then when he turns around and you see the left side of his face, it's perfectly fine O______O 

Here's The Link: *Madara is implied to have thought of the Moon's Eye Plan before fighting Hashirama at the Valley of the End.*

(Tobito FTW!)



jacamo said:


> Kishi wouldnt introduce a named Uchiha for no reason, not in that situation... Kagami was introduced when Danzo died, in a flashback where he was part of team Tobirama... thats right, *Tobi*-rama, for no reason? give me a break
> 
> Kagami fits the timeline perfectly, no one can deny this... Kagami is old enough to have been alive pre-Konoha and to have had contact with Madara himself
> 
> ...


 
Nice evidence, man. Kagami is definitely one of the more plausible theories. The only thing that doesn't make sense is who the heck's gonna recognize him? I suppose that the fans will remember him once Kishi delves into his backstory, though. The only real problem with this theory is that Kagami won't create any emotional reactions within the characters.


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## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Nice evidence, man. Kagami is definitely one of the more plausible theories. The only thing that doesn't make sense is who the heck's gonna recognize him? I suppose that the fans will remember him once Kishi delves into his backstory, though. The only real problem with this theory is that Kagami won't create any emotional reactions within the characters.



ever since Kabuto and the 6th coffin i knew Edo Madara was coming... so Izuna was plausible for the longest time, but then Madara said Izuna died  

the readers will recognise him, the Elders Homura and Koharu will recognise him, maybe Tsunade too, and the Kyuubi has *already *recognised him once

Kakashi might mistaken him for Obito... but then Kagami will correct him and reveal that Obito was his son [then comes the sob story ]


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ever since Kabuto and the 6th coffin i knew Edo Madara was coming... so Izuna was plausible for the longest time, but then Madara said Izuna died
> 
> the readers will recognise him, the Elders Homura and Koharu will recognise him, maybe Tsunade too, and the Kyuubi has *already *recognised him once
> 
> Kakashi might mistaken him for Obito... but then Kagami will correct him and reveal that Obito was his son [then comes the sob story ]


 
But, the elders Homura and Koharu aren't even currently on the batlefield fighting Tobi. If they somehow join in later and come to Naruto's aid, then I'll start thinking it's Kagami. As things stand right now though, I'm leaning a little more towards Obito since Kakashi is on the battlefield. if Itachi or Ao happens to come in, then I'll start thinking it's Shisui.

So, basically, Tobi's identity has been narrowed down to Obito, Shisui, Izuna, and Kagami. They're the only ones that would fit well into the story at this point.


----------



## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> But, the elders Homura and Koharu aren't even currently on the batlefield fighting Tobi. If they somehow join in later and come to Naruto's aid, then I'll start thinking i's Kagami. As things stand right now though, I'm leaning a little more towards Obito. if Itachi or Ao happens to come in, then I'll start thinking it's Shisui.



the Elders would provide the emotional connection, backstory and flashbacks...  HQ can contact anyone via telepathy 

i dont believe in the Obito theory but the fact that Kakashi is part of the battle makes me think about it 

this is why the Kyubi recognising Tobi is *so important*... Obito wasnt born when the Kyubi was sealed into Mito or Kushina, which rules out Obito


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## MYJC (Apr 16, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> So, basically, Tobi's identity has been narrowed down to Obito, Shisui, Izuna, and Kagami. They're the only ones that would fit well into the story at this point.



Not really. 

He could also be a Madara Clone, the Elder Son, or somebody new that we haven't heard of.


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## Talis (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the Elders would provide the emotional connection, backstory and flashbacks...  HQ can contact anyone via telepathy
> 
> i dont believe in the Obito theory but the fact that Kakashi is part of the battle makes me think about it
> 
> this is why the Kyubi recognising Tobi is *so important*... Obito wasnt born when the Kyubi was sealed into Mito or Kushina, which rules out Obito


But, Minato and Kushina could have been always around their team while Kyuubi could sense their chakra's or something.
Perhaps Kyuubi sensed Hashirama's Dna chakra's sicne Hashirama used to controle him to.


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## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

Madara clone would be absolutely awful, the easy way out

Kagami and Elder Son are the only options in my opinion


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the Elders would provide the emotional connection, backstory and flashbacks... HQ can contact anyone via telepathy
> 
> i dont believe in the Obito theory but the fact that Kakashi is part of the battle makes me think about it
> 
> this is why the Kyubi recognising Tobi is *so important*... Obito wasnt born when the Kyubi was sealed into Mito or Kushina, which rules out Obito


 

Well, we know for a fact that Kurama can watch the happenings of the outside world from within his host. There's a chance that, since Obito was Minato's student, he introduced him, Rin, and Kakashi to his wife, Kushina. It's a long shot, but who knows. Another possibility is that Kurama just assumed he was Madara, but I doubt that too.

Lol, I almost forgot about the fact that HQ can contact people with telepathy. The Kagami theory just seems even more solid now.



MYJC said:


> Not really.
> 
> He could also be a Madara Clone, the Elder Son, or somebody new that we haven't heard of.


 
A Madara clone would have no impact at all. I mean, seriously, how would you feel if the (presumed)final villain of the series was just a mere clone? If Kishi wanted to make Tobi Madara in some way, he would have just made him the real madara and not introduced Edo Madara.

A new character would be SUPER anti-climactic and boring. Seriously, all this suspense just for some random guy we've never even seen before? 

The Elder Son seems kind of plausible, I guess. Maybe his father never actually named him so that's why he said he was no one. XD But seriously, though, he could be the Elder Son, but I doubt it. I'd say there's about a 10% chance.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 16, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> A Madara clone would have no impact at all. I mean, seriously, how would you feel if the (presumed)final villain of the series was just a mere clone? If Kishi wanted to make Tobi Madara in some way, he would have just made him the real madara and not introduced Edo Madara.
> 
> A new character would be SUPER anti-climactic and boring. Seriously, all this suspense just for some random guy we've never even seen before?
> 
> The Elder Son seems kind of plausible, I guess. Maybe his father never actually named him so that's why he said he was no one. XD But seriously, though, he could be the Elder Son, but I doubt it. I'd say there's about a 10% chance.


 
Speaking about plausibility: There is no plausible reason to doubt that he is the Elder Son. Maybe even less reason than to doubt it was Obito or Izuna.
People just don't believe he could survive that long, that's why I created my theory.


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## Barioth (Apr 16, 2012)

Tobi is a freak of nature.


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Speaking about plausibility: There is no plausible reason to doubt that he is the Elder Son. Maybe even less reason than to doubt it was Obito or Izuna.
> People just don't believe he could survive that long, that's why I created my theory.



   Oh, i believe he could survive that long. I mean, when you have a character like orochimaru, who knows what kind of secret jutsu an evil badass like the elder son might know. 

    I have three reasons as to why i doubt your theory:

1. According to your theory, The Elder Son took over Obito's dead body. Why would he take over some half crushed, one eyed kid's body? You'd think someone like him would have more common sense than that........

2. If it was the elder son, it wouldn't create an emotional reaction in anyone. Although, I guess the Elder Son being in Obito's body would create enough of an emotional reaction in Kakashi, but I still tend to doubt it.

3. The third reason is that the Elder Son's motivation is just TOO obvious. It would make more sense if Tobi is a character who we are shocked as to why he is doing this. It creates more emotional reaction in the characters and the fans as well as being a very intriguing plot twist. This is a reason that I am starting to doubt the Izuna theory.


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## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

loool3 said:


> But, Minato and Kushina could have been always around their team while Kyuubi could sense their chakra's or something.
> Perhaps Kyuubi sensed Hashirama's Dna chakra's sicne Hashirama used to controle him to.





TobiUchiha111 said:


> Well, we know for a fact that Kurama can watch the happenings of the outside world from within his host. There's a chance that, since Obito was Minato's student, he introduced him, Rin, and Kakashi to his wife, Kushina. It's a long shot, but who knows.



you both touch on the same point... yes its a VERY long shot

but i still disagree... think about it, the Kyubi *recognising* Tobi is all we need to rule out the Obito theory... Obito wasnt alive at the time

there was nothing said to have happened when Kushina became the Kyubi Jinchuriki when Mito passed away, so we can assume everything went according to plan at this point in the story

but Hiruzen commented on the seal almost failing when Mito gave birth... so the Kyubi either recognised Tobi from this exchange, or the Kyubi recognised Tobi from before VOTE, when Mito sealed the Kyubi the first time


----------



## violentrl (Apr 16, 2012)

Just shut up and wait patiently. Its evident that Tobi will remove his mask one day. It's probably Sasuke's mom or something.


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

violentrl said:


> Just shut up and wait patiently. Its evident that Tobi will remove his mask one day. It's probably Sasuke's mom or something.



The reason this thread was created in the first place was so people could discuss Tobi's identity. of course we won't know who he is for sure until that damn mask comes off, but it sure is fun to debate about it

(And Lol, sasuke's mom)


----------



## MYJC (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you both touch on the same point... yes its a VERY long shot
> 
> but i still disagree... think about it, the Kyubi *recognising* Tobi is all we need to rule out the Obito theory... Obito wasnt alive at the time
> 
> ...



Or, you know, he just thought Tobi was Madara like Minato did. 

Which would make sense if he was a Madara Clone...


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 16, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> 1. According to your theory, The Elder Son took over Obito's dead body. Why would he take over some half crushed, one eyed kid's body? You'd think someone like him would have more common sense than that........



It's the 3rd Ninja World war. So we can assume that The Elder Son was also involved in fights. If he was weakend from before, (Or maybe because his old body became too old) he might have not been strong enough to gain a "living" one. (As we know he only got the Rikudos Chakra. If he loses his Chakra and needs to regenerate it, he has no strenght, because his physical strenght is kinda weak. We also never saw Tobi fight physically.)
Other possible explanation: He ran out of time for some reason, and needed to get a body, or Obito's body has a secret. (For example like mentioned he could be Shisui's brother or something and therefore own his special sharingan)



TobiUchiha111 said:


> 2. If it was the elder son, it wouldn't create an emotional reaction in anyone. Although, I guess the Elder Son being in Obito's body would create enough of an emotional reaction in Kakashi, but I still tend to doubt it.



As mentioned the emotional reaction would be created due to the fact, that he himself was ALL EVIL UCHIHAS. He was Madara. He was Obito. He was other people we don't know. Maybe he even was Kagami. (Matches the timeline and The Elder Son's "New-Body-Timer".
There are a couple of created reaction's.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> 3. The third reason is that the Elder Son's motivation is just TOO obvious. It would make more sense if Tobi is a character who we are shocked as to why he is doing this. It creates more emotional reaction in the characters and the fans as well as being a very intriguing plot twist. This is a reason that I am starting to doubt the Izuna theory.



Sometimes obvious things are so obvious that they start to become impossible for the reader. That's the trick. The shocked character is already featured in Nagato.


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you both touch on the same point... yes its a VERY long shot
> 
> but i still disagree... think about it, the Kyubi *recognising* Tobi is all we need to rule out the Obito theory... Obito wasnt alive at the time
> 
> ...



Hmmmm.... Well, you do have a strong point there... I'm still all for the Obito theory though, since we all know how Kishi is. He likes to make us think we know something and then show us we know nothing at all. But I have to admit, You raise some good points that are hard to counter.......


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## Escargon (Apr 16, 2012)

Hes a Madara clone with two faces, im going to stop eating pizza for a year if im wrong.


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## Talis (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you both touch on the same point... yes its a VERY long shot
> 
> but i still disagree... think about it, the Kyubi *recognising* Tobi is all we need to rule out the Obito theory... Obito wasnt alive at the time
> 
> ...


Dude long haired masked man was the real Madara obviously, the one which controled the Mizukage.
But i know you didn't believe in the Tobidara theory anyways, but to these they should read my sign point 5.



Escargon said:


> Hes a Madara clone with two faces, im going to stop eating pizza for a year if im wrong.


No pizza for you anymore xD.
Switch to Kebab better.


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## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Or, you know, he just thought Tobi was Madara like Minato did.
> 
> Which would make sense if he was a Madara Clone...



yeh, i guess it could be that 

although i would rage at the pointlessness of a clone 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Hmmmm.... Well, you do have a strong point there... I'm still all for the Obito theory though, since we all know how Kishi is. He likes to make us think we know something and then show us we know nothing at all. But I have to admit, You raise some good points that are hard to counter.......



well thanks i guess... my point can be summed up this way:

*if the Kyubi recognised Tobi, where and when did the Kyubi recognise Tobi from? has to be during Mito's child birth or before/during VOTE*

Kagami is the only option without a minefield of plot holes


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> my point can be summed up this way:
> 
> *if the Kyubi recognised Tobi, where and when did the Kyubi recognise Tobi from? has to be during Mito's child birth or before/during VOTE*
> 
> Kagami is the only option without a minefield of plot holes



Lol, yeah, Kagami is definitely the theory with the least plot holes. It also has the advantage of being the least expected. After this I'm gonna post all the evidence for this theory so far so others can be convinced. It's still not my primary theory but it's an interesting one to explore.


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## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Dude long haired masked man was the real Madara obviously, the one which controled the Mizukage.



lol what?  you cant be serious

Tobi's long hair and Madara's long hair are clearly different anyway

but it doesnt matter... the Kyubi recognised Tobi, and Obito wasnt even alive when the Kyubi would have first seen Tobi, because the Kyubi has been SEALED most of the story, decades at a time


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## Syko (Apr 16, 2012)

Tobi is izuna.

/thread


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## Talis (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lol what?  you cant be serious
> 
> Tobi's long hair and Madara's long hair are clearly different anyway
> 
> but it doesnt matter... the Kyubi recognised Tobi, and Obito wasnt even alive when the Kyubi would have first seen Tobi, because the Kyubi has been SEALED most of the story, decades at a time


The guy was even full of bandages on top of that he even had a bandage on his chest while Madara had a sword cut through it from Hashirama.


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## kazuri (Apr 16, 2012)

Its the janitor. And he would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those kids and their pesky dog.


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

*Kagami Uchiha: The Man Behind the Mask?*

Okay, The Uchiha Kagami theory is one of the (in my opinon) best Tobi theories. Alot of people doubt it because he only appeared in one chapter. So i'm gonna give a truckload of evidence to support it.

-Kagami's name means mirror. This could explain how he was "mirroring" Madara.

-Kagami and Tobi have the same eye shape 

-In Danzo's flashback, for the last character on the team, he could have introduced ANYONE from ANY clan as the last one from the team. instead, he chose to put an UCHIHA, one which is one of the most important clans in this manga.

-Kagami's alias "Tobi" could have been derived from his sensei, TOBIrama

-Tobirama was also said to use space-time ninjutsu, Kagami could have copied it from him with his sharingan

-During Sasuke's fight with Danzo, Tobi seemed to know everything Danzo did right off the bat, almost as if he knew him PERSONALLY. This would make sense if they were on the same team.

-During Tobi's attack on Konoha with Kurama, the only two members of Danzo's team that were missing were Danzo himself and Kagami. Danzo was probably missing due to secrecy, but where was Kagami?
LINK: *Madara is implied to have thought of the Moon's Eye Plan before fighting Hashirama at the Valley of the End.*

-During Minato's fight with Tobi, Minato said that Tobi's space-time skills surpassed even his and the SECOND's. Students surpassing their mentors seems to be a running theme in this manga. So it would make sense that Kagami surpassed his.                                                                    
LINK: *Madara is implied to have thought of the Moon's Eye Plan before fighting Hashirama at the Valley of the End.*

-I also find it suspicious that Danzo went into a flashback with Kagami in it while making direct eye contact with Tobi.
LINK: *Madara is implied to have thought of the Moon's Eye Plan before fighting Hashirama at the Valley of the End.*

-One more thing: During Danzo's flashback in chapter 481, right before Tobirama announces Sarutobi Hokage, You can see Kagami's face looking kinda angry, plus his eyes are shaded out. A little jealous, are we, Kagami? 
LINK: *Madara is implied to have thought of the Moon's Eye Plan before fighting Hashirama at the Valley of the End.*    (look in the top left panel on the very left.)

    In conclusion, this seems like a very plausible theory, and would fill in alot of the gaps in the story.


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## jacamo (Apr 16, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The guy was even full of bandages on top of that he even had a bandage on his chest while Madara had a sword cut through it from Hashirama.



doesnt matter 

Obito wasnt alive for the Kyubi to recognise him in the first place



Syko said:


> Tobi is izuna.
> 
> /thread



then why did Madara say he died, whilst also knowing who Tobi is?

doesnt make sense for Kishi to do that


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> doesnt matter
> 
> Obito wasnt alive for the Kyubi to recognise him in the first place



Maybe Kurama just assumed he was Madara since Madara was the only one up until then, to ever summon him. Sounds kinda half assed but it's possible. I don't really think the Kyuubi knew who Tobi really was, I mean, the guy wears a mask 24/7. He probably assumed it was Madara like everyone else. Especially since he had the most experience with him.


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## Syko (Apr 16, 2012)

jacamo said:


> doesnt matter
> 
> Obito wasnt alive for the Kyubi to recognise him in the first place
> 
> ...



Like Kishi cares about logic. And Madara could lie.


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## NW (Apr 16, 2012)

Syko said:


> Like Kishi cares about logic. And Madara could lie.



He was talking out loud. And, he was saying that because of a subject brought up by Tsunade. If Izuna wasn't dead, then why say that he was? It's not like anyone was suspecting him of being Tobi anyway, barely anyone knows about him. Bottom line: Tobi =/= Izuna.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 16, 2012)

Tobi spelled backwards: iBot -> he is obviously an apple-produced robot O.o


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 16, 2012)

Regarding Kurama recognizing Tobi, it was obviously done as a red herring to further make the reader think Tobi was Madara. But it was left vague enough to allow for the twist later, since Kurama didn't actually identify Tobi, just recognize him.

There are ways to make any candidate fit with Kyuubi's recognition as well.

He could have thought that they were in fact Madara, since we already know it's possible for someone to have chakra that is similar to Madara's (Sasuke).

Or, he could have met them before, somehow.


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## Raventhal (Apr 16, 2012)

Problem with Shisui is I am certain Sasuke would recognize his brothers best friend.

Kagami Uchiha has now shot to the top of my list.  He has the hair and the age for the look.  Old enough to know Madara and be there for Nagato.


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## HakuGaara (Apr 17, 2012)

Tobi isn't anyone, he's a parasitic entity that has taken DNA from Madara and Zetsu and no longer has any specific identity himself, if he ever had one to begin with.

However, he and Madara are definitely linked in some way. Nagato's Rinne Tensai is proof of this.

Here is Tobi's comment on Rinne Tensai (1st panel).

Link removed

And now Madara's comment on Rinne Tensai (1st panel).

Link removed

Very interesting!!


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## jacamo (Apr 17, 2012)

Syko said:


> Like Kishi cares about logic. And Madara could lie.



 thats clearly not good enough to refute what i said



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Okay, The Uchiha Kagami theory is one of the (in my opinon) best Tobi theories. Alot of people doubt it because he only appeared in one chapter. So i'm gonna give a truckload of evidence to support it.
> 
> -Kagami's name means mirror. This could explain how he was "mirroring" Madara.
> 
> ...



i would also like to add to the connection between Tobi and Danzo

we all know Tobi was connected to Nagato... he spurred Yahiko to create Akatsuki and its also how Nagato got the Rinnegan 

but when Yahiko died during the Nagato flashback, why was Danzo there? his role in that situation was just to stand there, didnt talk, didnt fight... how did Danzo even find himself in that situation? ANOTHER coincidence?  

No, Tobi and Danzo are connected, via Tobi = Kagami... i mean Kishi could have used anyone to emphasise the hostage situation or that Nagato/Yahiko/Konan were outnumbered, so why Danzo of all people? 

 Danzo already had an implanted Sharingan at that point, that tells me Tobi/Kagami knew what Danzo was up to and wanted him dead ASAP.... and guided him straight to an almighty Rinnegan user


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 17, 2012)

Tobi and Danzo are connected through the Uchiha Massacre. And Danzo himself believed Tobi to be Madara, so it's clear their connection was not a close one.


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## Mateush (Apr 17, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> And Danzo himself believed Tobi to be Madara, so it's clear their connection was not a close one.



It can be viewed in another way. It only gives more credit to the Tobi = Madara (or part of) theory. I have told this before, but I'm still pretty sure that Tobi somehow is Madara.


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## jacamo (Apr 17, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi and Danzo are connected through the Uchiha Massacre. And Danzo himself believed Tobi to be Madara, so it's clear their connection was not a close one.



and im saying its deeper than that

i mean how is it that Danzo was in that situation? he was almost slaughtered by a Rinnegan user who Tobi had manipulated... another coincidence?

i dont think its a coincidence that Tobi was able to guide Danzo into that situation... to take it that far Tobi must have known Danzo as a teammate


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## AoMythology (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm leaning towards Tobi being Shisui, and fooling everyone with Kotoamatsukami into thinking he is a peace lover.

Of course, he would have to possess the Shodai's cells to be able to use it once a day rather than once a decade.

Maybe an adverse reaction to those cells was at fault for Tobi's wrinkled face.

The reason why I am leaning towards Shisui is because he is the only one with enough talent with mind-controlling techniques to have a chance of controlling the Kyuubi *with a normal Sharingan*.

Of course, it could be that it was Kagami, and that he had similar abilities.

Or a time traveling Sasuke (I don't think I've heard that theory again). Sasuke is the most talented of the Uchiha (and most talented of all characters in the manga except the Sage) - it wouldn't be out of the question for him to be able to use the three tomoe Sharingan to control the Kyuubi. Of course, since Tobi cannot use an Eternal Mangekyou or the Lightning element, he is severely weakened if that's the case.


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## Mateush (Apr 17, 2012)

Three pictures are enough to know Tobi can't be anyone but Madara (or part of):


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Three pictures are enough to know Tobi can't be anyone but Madara (or part of):



That proofs nothing. He is living his lie, maybe he even beliefs that it is true, so why should he stop lying?
But I believe he is a part of Madara, because I think, he, the elder son, controled Madara.


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## Mateush (Apr 17, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> That proofs nothing. He is living his lie, maybe he even beliefs that it is true, so why should he stop lying?
> But I believe he is a part of Madara, because I think, he, the elder son, controled Madara.



That would be asspull if he is lying to himself. But yeah who knows if Kishi will go with these excuses. I have pointed out the proof he is Madara, unless the small possibility he is lying for himself.


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## Talis (Apr 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> That would be asspull if he is lying to himself. But yeah who knows if Kishi will go with these excuses. I have pointed out the proof he is Madara, unless the small possibility he is lying for himself.


Not if the real Madara casted on someone like Obito Koto Amatsukami to make him think that he's actually Madara and follow ''his'' orders.


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## Mateush (Apr 17, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Not if the real Madara casted on someone like Obito Koto Amatsukami to make him think that he's actually Madara and follow ''his'' orders.



How funny that I also believe that Tobi was genjutsu'd.  I would still call him Madara, even if it's completely different body.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Apr 17, 2012)

*Tobi is Itachi: My Two Cents!*

Itachi said he'd made failures. Tobi made lots of failures in the past. Maybe Itachi of the past went too extreme and took in his Tobi persona. Hoping to do a Mugen tsukuyomi (Itachi's best trick) to avoid war at all costs (Itachi hates wars)

It explains why Itachi said he'd tell Sasuke the truth later.

Discuss.


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## Darmody (Apr 17, 2012)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Itachi said he'd made failures. Tobi made lots of failures in the past. Maybe Itachi of the past went too extreme and took in his Tobi persona. Hoping to do a Mugen tsukuyomi (Itachi's best trick) to avoid war at all costs (Itachi hates wars)
> 
> It explains why Itachi said he'd tell Sasuke the truth later.
> 
> Discuss.



No                     .


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## NW (Apr 17, 2012)

AoMythology said:


> Sasuke is the most talented of the Uchiha (and most talented of all characters in the manga except the Sage) - it wouldn't be out of the question for him to be able to use the three tomoe Sharingan to control the Kyuubi.



    Lol, Sasuke=Most talented Uchiha and second most talented character?



    That's clearly a HUGE exaggeration. Sasuke's powerful, sure, but to say he's the most talented Uchiha is ridiculous, let alone the second most talented character. Right off the top of my head i can already name some Uchihas who are more talented than Sasuke: Shisui, Itachi, Madara, Izuna, Tobi, the Sage of Six Paths Elder Son(if he counts as an uchiha). And as for overall characters who are more talented: Naruto, Minato, Itachi, Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, Shisui, Izuna, Itachi, Rikudo, Rikudo's older son, Rikudo's younger son and Tobi.

   Sorry, got a little off track from the Tobi subject for a minute there O____O


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## Escargon (Apr 17, 2012)

Sorry dudes but Tobi is Madara as someone stated there up.

Tobi wanted to REVIVE himself using Nagato. Why the hell would he want to revive himself?

And Madara got revived but not the way he wanted. He wanted Tobis body to become immortal enough to be with the Ten Tails.

Kabuto took Tobis DNA to revive Madara. 

There you go.


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## NW (Apr 17, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Sorry dudes but Tobi is Madara as someone stated there up.
> 
> Tobi wanted to REVIVE himself using Nagato. Why the hell would he want to revive himself?
> 
> ...


 
When Tobi said, he wanted Nagato to use the Rinne Tensei for him, he meant for his own purposes. He didn't actually want to revive himself. That wouldn't make any sense whatsoever considering he's ALIVE.

I don't really get what you mean with your second point.....


Okay, i don't know why people keep on forgetting this. In order for someone to be brought back to life with Edo Tensei, that person's soul must reside in the Pure World, meaning that it can't be among the living. Madara was revived with edo tensei, so we know he was dead. There's no way you can just ressurect a body. Edo madara was living, breathing, talking, thining. That was NOT just a body. Plus, it would be completely anti-climactic for tobi to somehow still be Madara even after Edo Madara appeared. One of the whole major purposes of Edo madara was probably to show us that Tobi's not who he says he is. Face it, man, Tobi's not Madara. I mean, why do you even still want tobi to be Madara. We've already got Edo madara. Is one Madara not good enough for you?

(Also, has anyone noticed that all the super strong jutsu lately end with "Tensei"? Why is that?)



Raventhal said:


> Problem with Shisui is I am certain Sasuke would recognize his brothers best friend.
> 
> Kagami Uchiha has now shot to the top of my list. He has the hair and the age for the look. Old enough to know Madara and be there for Nagato.


 
Are you sure that Sasuke has ever seen Shisui? I mean, even if he had, Shisui is older now, (hence the wrinkles) and those lines, whatever the hell they were, coming off the corners of his eyes were gone. Not to mention he didn't even see his whole face.

Also, read my theory if you want more proof that Tobi is Kagami.


----------



## Talis (Apr 17, 2012)

It's either 97% Obito, 1% shisui.
Or 2% RS, it's actually pretty obvious that we have to see his face, Kishi didn't reveal it in his flashback which means that we will see his face in his living form, and i am actually pretty sure that he will have a conversation with Naruto to, to pass the peace task to him.
And Tobi is actually creating peace.


----------



## NW (Apr 17, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It's either 97% Obito, 1% shisui.
> Or 2% RS, it's actually pretty obvious that we have to see his face, Kishi didn't reveal it in his flashback which means that we will see his face in his living form, and i am actually pretty sure that he will have a conversation with Naruto to, to pass the peace task to him.
> And Tobi is actually creating peace.



    WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Tobi's not CREATING peace. He's DESTROYING it. Sure, he says he wants peace and all that, but COME ON. The dude is evil. Even his own version of peace is sick and twisted.

And, you're whole percentage is a huge exaggeration. A more accurate percentage would probably be:
Obito: 50%
Kagami: 30%
Shisui: 10%
Izuna: 10%


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## Talis (Apr 17, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Tobi's not CREATING peace. He's DESTROYING it. Sure, he says he wants peace and all that, but COME ON. The dude is evil. Even his own version of peace is sick and twisted.
> 
> And, you're whole percentage is a huge exaggeration. A more accurate percentage would probably be:
> Obito: 50%
> ...


You realise he made the whole world teaming up and working together?


----------



## MYJC (Apr 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Three pictures are enough to know Tobi can't be anyone but Madara (or part of):



Madara Clone it is. 

Think about it - 

-Explains why he looks like Madara (from what we've seen)
-Explains why he's partially Zetsu goo
-Explains why he told people he was Madara
-Explains why he says he's "no one" now that Madara is back
-Explains why the Kyuubi mistaked him for Madara
-Explains why he's "immortal"

Good job sir.


----------



## Talis (Apr 17, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Madara Clone it is.
> 
> Think about it -
> 
> ...


A clone doesn't age.


----------



## NW (Apr 17, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You realise he made the whole world teaming up and working together?


 
Yes, I realize that. It's just that, he doesn't give a crap about that. If his moon's eye plan is completed, that all won't matter and everyone will be under his complete control.



MYJC said:


> Madara Clone it is.
> 
> Think about it -
> 
> ...


 
A Madara clone would definitely be the most obvious explanation for who Tobi is. But it would also be the most boring and anti-climactic choice. Do you really think Kishi's gonna make the final villain a friggin clone? if he wanted him to be Madara, he would have just made him the real Madara, which he isn't, obviously. Kishi's gonna come up with something that is different from the obvious. Something that will surprise us. Plus, if he looked just like Madara, why wear a mask?


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## MYJC (Apr 17, 2012)

loool3 said:


> A clone doesn't age.



Says who? Ask . 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> A Madara clone would definitely be the most obvious explanation for who Tobi is. But it would also be the most boring and anti-climactic choice. Do you really think Kishi's gonna make the final villain a friggin clone? if he wanted him to be Madara, he would have just made him the real Madara, which he isn't, obviously. Kishi's gonna come up with something that is different from the obvious. Something that will surprise us. Plus, if he looked just like Madara, why wear a mask?



I dunno. Maybe his face is scarred or deformed. Maybe the mask has some sort of power. Maybe he just likes masks. 

He's still wearing the mask now that we know he's not Madara, so who knows.


----------



## Talis (Apr 17, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Says who? Ask .
> 
> 
> 
> ...





MYJC said:


> Madara Clone it is.
> 
> Think about it -
> 
> ...


Kinda selfownage i guess?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Apr 17, 2012)

Mateush said:


> It can be viewed in another way. It only gives more credit to the Tobi = Madara (or part of) theory. I have told this before, but I'm still pretty sure that Tobi somehow is Madara.



I don't see how.

Danzo was fooled just like Itachi and the rest of the ninja world into accepting Tobi's lies.

I don't think he ever got close enough to Tobi to learn anything about him, since Tobi himself stated they hadn't seen each other since the Uchiha Massacre.



jacamo said:


> and im saying its deeper than that
> 
> i mean how is it that Danzo was in that situation? he was almost slaughtered by a Rinnegan user who Tobi had manipulated... another coincidence?
> 
> i dont think its a coincidence that Tobi was able to guide Danzo into that situation... to take it that far Tobi must have known Danzo as a teammate



You're saying Danzo got involved with Hanzou because Tobi manipulated him into doing it? I doubt it.

Danzo collaborated with Orochimaru in the past, something that Tobi disproved of.

Danzo is simply the type of person who will make multiple deals with devils if he feels that is the best course of action.


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## Mateush (Apr 17, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I don't see how.
> 
> Danzo was fooled just like Itachi and the rest of the ninja world into accepting Tobi's lies.
> 
> I don't think he ever got close enough to Tobi to learn anything about him, since Tobi himself stated they hadn't seen each other since the Uchiha Massacre.



I don't have much to say, but what do you say if we make a bet? I bet Tobi in some way is Madara, either genjutsu or by other methods


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm sticking with my initial assessment that Tobi is going to turn out to be Madara's Daddy (or Uncle).


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## Escargon (Apr 18, 2012)

Tobi got Madaras face and Kabuto ressed up Madara from Tobis dna or i will not drink cola for a year.

Tobi is a clone of Madara, he resisted death somehow. Thats why Kabuto wants the same clone Tobi is. Oh wait didnt i mention that Tobis right face is hidden? So he might be part Zetsu part "slave" of Madara. Imagine Obito with half face being aged Madaras. Its possibly possible to cheat death in this manga. (wtf am i sayin)

And who said Madara didnt die old? He got ressed up on his golden age. Either that or the advanced clones aged if they dont get back their "masters" fast enough.

I think that Tobis reveal will be anticlimatic, dont remember when Naruto crashed on Tobis mask, we had to wait two weeks and he just bounced out of it? Dont have much hope


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 18, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I don't have much to say, but what do you say if we make a bet? I bet Tobi in some way is Madara, either genjutsu or by other methods



By genjutsu you mean he's been hypnotized into thinking he's Madara?

Sure, I'll take that bet.


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## jacamo (Apr 18, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Madara Clone it is.
> 
> Think about it -
> 
> ...





Mateush said:


> I don't have much to say, but what do you say if we make a bet? I bet Tobi in some way is Madara, either genjutsu or by other methods





Escargon said:


> Tobi got Madaras face and Kabuto ressed up Madara from Tobis dna or i will not drink cola for a year.
> 
> Tobi is a clone of Madara, he resisted death somehow. Thats why Kabuto wants the same clone Tobi is. Oh wait didnt i mention that Tobis right face is hidden? So he might be part Zetsu part "slave" of Madara. Imagine Obito with half face being aged Madaras. Its possibly possible to cheat death in this manga. (wtf am i sayin)
> 
> ...



geez... you guys really need to get over the fact that you were wrong about Tobi being Madara this whole time, this ENTIRE time

Tobi and Madara have COMPLETELY different personalities so its practically impossible for him be a clone... Madara even knows who Tobi is, which strongly suggests he's a different person altogether



First Tsurugi said:


> You're saying Danzo got involved with Hanzou because Tobi manipulated him into doing it?



yes

i just think its too much of a coincidence for Danzo to have been there in that situation, seeing as Tobi was deeply connected to Nagato in the first place


----------



## Edward Nygma (Apr 18, 2012)




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## jacamo (Apr 18, 2012)

Datenshi Uchiha said:


>



 i love that pic

but Obito = too many plotholes


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 18, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Tobi's not CREATING peace. He's DESTROYING it. Sure, he says he wants peace and all that, but COME ON. The dude is evil. Even his own version of peace is sick and twisted.
> 
> And, you're whole percentage is a huge exaggeration. A more accurate percentage would probably be:
> Obito: 50%
> ...



So Izuna is still more convincing to you than The Elder Son?? Seems like i failed.


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## son_michael (Apr 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i love that pic
> 
> but Obito = too many plotholes



every tobi theory has plot holes. Tobi should be obito for the emotional and suspenseful feelings it would create. No one gives a shit about any other character. Kishi could make money off of bringing obito back into the story.

From a writers perspective, its foolish not to make the "big reveal" feel big...and the only way it will feel big is if the secret identity resonates with the fans.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> every tobi theory has plot holes. Tobi should be obito for the emotional and suspenseful feelings it would create. No one gives a shit about any other character. Kishi could make money off of bringing obito back into the story.
> 
> From a writers perspective, its foolish not to make the "big reveal" feel big...and the only way it will feel big is if the secret identity resonates with the fans.



I wouldn't say that.
1st: Most author's don't let their story be changed "by" the fans. Can tell it from One Piece author, he often stresses that fact.
2nd: Most author's know the ending, long before it is revealed. So Kishi knew who was Tobi before the fans even started to think about it, otherwise he couldn't implant the story of Tobi in the main plot.
3rd: Not all fans favorite the Obito-version of Tobi's identity.

There are a lot of other character's who can create an emotional ending. Obito would only create these emotions for Kakashi. There are other peop?e who could create far bigger emotions.


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## jacamo (Apr 18, 2012)

son_michael said:


> every tobi theory has plot holes. Tobi should be obito for the emotional and suspenseful feelings it would create. No one gives a shit about any other character. Kishi could make money off of bringing obito back into the story.
> 
> From a writers perspective, its foolish not to make the "big reveal" feel big...and the only way it will feel big is if the secret identity resonates with the fans.



Kagami doesnt have any plotholes

the only argument against is "he is irrelevant"

he would have ties to alot of major characters like Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, Hiruzen, Danzo, the elders Koharu and Homura, maybe even Oro? 

but not with the current generation like Naruto/Sasuke so i see your point


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami doesnt have any plotholes
> 
> the only argument against is "he is irrelevant"
> 
> ...



Same for the elder son.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> By genjutsu you mean he's been hypnotized into thinking he's Madara?
> 
> Sure, I'll take that bet.



Yeah something like Kotoamatsukami.



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> geez... you guys really need to get over the fact that you were wrong about Tobi being Madara this whole time, this ENTIRE time
> 
> Tobi and Madara have COMPLETELY different personalities so its practically impossible for him be a clone... Madara even knows who Tobi is, which strongly suggests he's a different person altogether



I really don't see big difference in their personalities, also we don't know real Madara enough. We have only seen him in the fight, not much more than it. So I would not conclude his personality yet.


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## jacamo (Apr 18, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Same for the elder son.



absolutely.... its a bit "out there" but certainly possible



Mateush said:


> I really don't see big difference in their personalities, also we don't know real Madara enough. We have only seen him in the fight, not much more than it. So I would not conclude his personality yet.



oh really... most of us see a huge personality difference already


----------



## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> oh really... most of us see a huge personality difference already



Not much when Tobi is serious. They both are arrogant, seem to have the same plan such as Nagato and the moon's eye plan, sometimes they like to make silly jokes as well. Sure there might be a little difference, but it doesn't exclude that Tobi in some way is Madara. Either genjutsu'd into thinking same plans and have same memories as Madara, or other method.

I stubbornly believe he in some way must be Madara, because these pictures I posted here. Also considering how Itachi said he is a pathetic shell of Madara, even Tobi somehow admitted himself it. I don't believe these are lies.


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## jacamo (Apr 18, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Not much when Tobi is serious. They both are arrogant, seem to have the same plan such as Nagato and the moon's eye plan, sometimes they like to make silly jokes as well. Sure there might be a little difference, but it doesn't exclude that Tobi in some way is Madara. Either genjutsu'd into thinking same plans and have same memories as Madara, or other method.
> 
> I stubbornly believe he in some way must be Madara, because these pictures I posted here. Also considering how Itachi said he is a pathetic shell of Madara, even Tobi somehow admitted himself it. I don't believe these are lies.



most Uchiha share those same facial characteristics so those pics dont really prove anything... imo Tobi is not Madara in any way, shape, or form

anyway, my time here is up... agree to disagree


----------



## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> most Uchiha share those same facial characteristics so those pics dont really prove anything... imo Tobi is not Madara in any way, shape, or form
> 
> anyway, my time here is up... agree to disagree



Oh no, I didn't post these pics 

Here you go:


----------



## Talis (Apr 18, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Oh no, I didn't post these pics
> 
> Here you go:


Look at my sign pic when Tobito is standing in front of a wall which has boulders on it.
Thats just 1 freaking sick hinting not to mention one of his face side looks old cuz of that rock and the other one looks young.


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## jacamo (Apr 18, 2012)

again, most Uchiha share the same facial characteristics


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## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Look at my sign pic when Tobito is standing in front of a wall which has boulders on it.
> Thats just 1 freaking sick hinting not to mention one of his face side looks old cuz of that rock and the other one looks young.



Cool that you noticed such details. I wouldn't be surprised if Tobi has Obito's body, really. In one way it makes sense.


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## Escargon (Apr 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> again, most Uchiha share the same facial characteristics



Tell me one Uchiha that got the same lines around the eye as Madara.

Only Tobi has it, and its not age wrinkle as you can see on my sig. Please watch carefully. I am sure that you will disagree, but i wouldnt be surprised, only a few can see that Tobi is an exact copy of Madara after the golden age.

And the different personalities, i think people change during the years, the Madara clone Tobi lived more than the real one. Tobi is just a shell of Madara, hes not w*nking to his power compared to Madara that propably died extremely strong.

Call me crazy but imagine if it was Tobi who told the fox that hes nothing more than a slave.


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## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

*Escargon:* So you think Madara used something like split clone as Muu used?


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## MYJC (Apr 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> geez... you guys really need to get over the fact that you were wrong about Tobi being Madara this whole time, this ENTIRE time
> 
> Tobi and Madara have COMPLETELY different personalities so its practically impossible for him be a clone... Madara even knows who Tobi is, which strongly suggests he's a different person altogether



Why does a clone have to have the same personality as the original?

That's like saying Zetsu isn't a clone of Hashirama because they don't have the same personality. 

Face it, from what we know, Tobi being some sort of clone/creation of Madara's makes the most sense. Certainly more sense than Obito. And of course Madara would know who he is if he created him.


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 18, 2012)

A clone only makes sense if they either share an appearance (every bunshin ever) or have the same powers (Yamato).

In Tobi's case, neither are true.

So I don't really see how Tobi being a clone is "the most logical possibility".


----------



## NW (Apr 18, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I wouldn't say that.
> 1st: Most author's don't let their story be changed "by" the fans. Can tell it from One Piece author, he often stresses that fact.
> 2nd: Most author's know the ending, long before it is revealed. So Kishi knew who was Tobi before the fans even started to think about it, otherwise he couldn't implant the story of Tobi in the main plot.
> 3rd: Not all fans favorite the Obito-version of Tobi's identity.
> ...



Try to name 1 character who would create any emotions at all besides Obito and Shisui.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Apr 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> A clone only makes sense if they either share an appearance (every bunshin ever) or have the same powers (Yamato).
> 
> In Tobi's case, neither are true.
> 
> So I don't really see how Tobi being a clone is "the most logical possibility".



Not to mention that no clone in the entire series has displayed the level of resilience or independent thought that Tobi has.

Quite frankly if Tobi were a clone it would have to be a type of clone we have never seen before in the series, so really it would be just as much of an ass-pull as any other identity theory.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> A clone only makes sense if they either share an appearance (every bunshin ever) or have the same powers (Yamato).
> 
> In Tobi's case, neither are true.
> 
> So I don't really see how Tobi being a clone is "the most logical possibility".



Agreed. It tells to us Tobi's body shouldn't be same as Madara. Still it could be one another form of clone technique which we don't know about yet, since there are a lot of variations in Naruto. 

Still I say something like brainwashing Tobi makes more sense, if his mind is Madara which I think must be.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 18, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Try to name 1 character who would create any emotions at all besides Obito and Shisui.



You named 3 reasons, you find unplausible at my theory a few sites ago, I answered them back then. Your second reason was:



TobiUchiha111 said:


> 2. If it was the elder son, it wouldn't create an emotional reaction in anyone. Although, I guess the Elder Son being in Obito's body would create enough of an emotional reaction in Kakashi, but I still tend to doubt it.



I answered back then:



Crystaltiger said:


> As mentioned the emotional reaction would be created due to the fact, that he himself was ALL EVIL UCHIHAS. He was Madara. He was Obito. He was other people we don't know. Maybe he even was Kagami. (Matches the timeline and The Elder Son's "New-Body-Timer".
> There are a couple of created reaction's.



So basically The Elder Son would create emotions.


----------



## NW (Apr 18, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Agreed. It tells to us Tobi's body shouldn't be same as Madara. Still it could be one another form of clone technique which we don't know about yet, since there are a lot of variations in Naruto.
> 
> Still I say something like brainwashing Tobi makes more sense, if his mind is Madara which I think must be.



Suuuuure, cuz everyone knows that it's exciting and climactic for the final villain of the series who had all this buildup and suspense to his identity, to be a clone

o______O Holy crap! I was just re-reading chapter 503 and just found something that puts a big hole in the whole Obito theory, At first, it looked like Kakashi and Guy were really tall for their age but it must have just been perspective since in this picture, they are shown to be as tall as someone their age would normally be: He did. (look in the top left panel)

I guess i gotta go with Shisui or Kagami now.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Apr 18, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Agreed. It tells to us Tobi's body shouldn't be same as Madara. Still it could be one another form of clone technique which we don't know about yet, since there are a lot of variations in Naruto.
> 
> Still I say something like brainwashing Tobi makes more sense, if his mind is Madara which I think must be.



I could believe that he was brainwashed at one point but currently Tobi seems quite self aware.

Perhaps he was like Kabuto was under Sasori, where it wore off over time.


----------



## NW (Apr 18, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> You named 3 reasons, you find unplausible at my theory a few sites ago, I answered them back then. Your second reason was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm, well, I can't exactly believe that because that's also another part of your theory I don't believe. Don't take it personally. I'm just not a big fan of Tobi being the older son.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Suuuuure, cuz everyone knows that it's exciting and climactic for the final villain of the series who had all this buildup and suspense to his identity, to be a clone



I know it's anti-climactic. I'm only trying to find the *truth* without to add wishful thinking into it. Instead you should try to disprove my theory which actually make sense.


----------



## Talis (Apr 18, 2012)

Kakashi's year, why you've been delayed so  many times bro. 
Is it because Tobi's revealment is delayed also?
And yet your delayed again to this year. 



Mateush said:


> I know it's anti-climactic. I'm only trying to find the *truth* without to add wishful thinking into it. Instead you should try to disprove my theory which actually make sense.



Like someone said before, no need for a clone if you've could make the living person himself the masked man.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 18, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Hmm, well, I can't exactly believe that because that's also another part of your theory I don't believe. Don't take it personally. I'm just not a big fan of Tobi being the older son.



Of course, because everyone tries to find the truth based on his theory. So if someone asks me who could create emotions, I am looking for my theory to fulfill this condition. And that won't change until there is a condition that is not fulfilled, like it's for everyone with an own theory.


----------



## Talis (Apr 18, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Of course, because everyone tries to find the truth based on his theory. So if someone asks me who could create emotions, I am looking for my theory to fulfill this condition. And that won't change until there is a condition that is not fulfilled, like it's for everyone with an own theory.


The point is that Elder son came way to late in the scene, the hintings of Kishi already started since Tobi was shown, he was pretty much hinted as, Madara, Obito, Shisui, Danzou, Izuna.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> The point is that Elder son came way to late in the scene, the hintings of Kishi already started since Tobi was shown, he was pretty much hinted as, Madara, Obito, Shisui, Danzou, Izuna.



Could have been a red herring, like Madara, who is now revealed not to be Tobi.
This theory would also kick of Kagami.
Furthermore assuming the elder son controled Madara and co, he could have been hinted since Madara was firstly mentioned. It's all a question of your point of view. You can say "He hinted Shisui, since he showed, that Itachi killed his friend to get the Mangekyo". At that point we knew nothing about Shisui, so it's practically the same to say "He hinted the elder son, who controled Madara, since he mentioned Madara's fight vs. Senju, or even the Uchiha massacre"
On the other hand you could say "The Elder Son was firstly mentioned when Tobi explained the story of Rikudo, that's waaay too late", but in this case you also have to say "Obito was firstly shown in Gaiden, what basically was shown pretty late in the story. We know nearlly nothing about Danzo before he fought Sasuke. Our information about Izuna are quit limited too."
It's all a question of your sight of view.
If the elder son is the bad guy, then he is the bad guy since the very start, which basically means, the hinting started, when the story started.


----------



## NW (Apr 18, 2012)

Mateush said:


> I know it's anti-climactic. I'm only trying to find the *truth* without to add wishful thinking into it. Instead you should try to disprove my theory which actually make sense.




    Here's the problem. You're saying this theory makes sense. Which it does. But since Naruto is fiction and not occurring in the real world, it's best to think from a storytelling point of view. Yes, it pays to use facts to support your theory, if you didn't use facts, your theory would be a fail, but when your facts start telling you that Tobi is just a clone of Madara, that's when you should start thinking from a storytelling point of view. 

    A good, solid, theory has to be explored from different angles in order to be really convincing. A theory based purely on storytelling points of view and emotional reaction without any factual reasoning to support it is not a good theory. Neither is one that relies solely on straight out facts that have been given to us, without further investigating if that identity would work for Tobi.

   Basically, a truly solid Tobi theory must show how that character can work from a storytelling and emotional point of view, while also showing facts from the manga which explain how it would make sense for that person to be Tobi.

   Your theory falls under the "solely on straight out facts that have been given to us, without further investigating if that identity would work for Tobi" category. So, if you can tell me how that would cause an emotional reaction in someone, then I may believe it.

   This is just my opinion. But I think that this seems very logical and seems like Kishimoto's style of writing. In my opinion, Kishi is an incredible writer so whoever Tobi turns out to be, I'm sure it will be awesome!


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## Mateush (Apr 18, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Your theory falls under the "solely on straight out facts that have been given to us, without further investigating if that identity would work for Tobi" category. So, if you can tell me how that would cause an emotional reaction in someone, then I may believe it.



Which is why it would be better if Tobi was put under genjutsu like Kotoamatsukami. I also have a feeling that during Kisame's flashback he met the real Madara, not Tobi. Because the current Tobi hadn't showed something genjutsu to be capable of controlling one Kage (otherwise he should control all these current kages). Not to mention the long hair which is quite obviously.

Also with Kishi's style to cancel the last moments of Kisame's flashback tells that Madara revealed something to Kisame which we don't know about yet.

I agree it would be awesome if Tobi turned out be Madara but not clone.


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## NW (Apr 18, 2012)

I guess it would be OK if he somehow turned out to be some form of Madara. Cuz, a clone would be ridiculous. i mean, i'd prefer it the least, but as long as the reveal and backstory is done right, it should turn out well.


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## AbnormallyNormal (Apr 18, 2012)

I still believe Tobi is Obito who somehow inherited some kind of Madara-like psyche and possibly Zetsu abilities.


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## NW (Apr 18, 2012)

I just had an idea. Is it possible that Obito is the reincarnation of Izuna? Madara could have told him about his past life and had him carry on the plan he originally made with Izuna. So, Obito gained some of Izuna's knowledge of the shinobi world and his powers. It's pretty out there but it's possible. I mean, one of the reasons that I think he's Izuna's reincarnation, is because they share the EXACT SAME birthday and bloodtype.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 18, 2012)

Tobi is going to be Madara's Daddy who is the Elder son


----------



## Rinnegan Zetsu (Apr 18, 2012)

I believe Tobi is either Sasuke Sarutobi or Madara's chakra that he split from himself with Creation of All Things before he died.


----------



## MYJC (Apr 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> A clone only makes sense if they either share an appearance (every bunshin ever) or have the same powers (Yamato).
> 
> In Tobi's case, neither are true.
> 
> So I don't really see how Tobi being a clone is "the most logical possibility".



I don't mean a Bunshin-type clone, I'm talking about a clone created in a lab by someone. And in any case the clone doesn't have to look exactly like the original, there are imperfect clones. Again, Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama and looks nothing like him. 

And Tobi does share at least one ability with Madara - they can both control the Kyuubi. Which was enough, in fact, to make Minato assume he had to be Madara.


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## Kung Pow (Apr 18, 2012)

I have got a little thought for you guys.

If Tobi indeed is a full blood Uchiha, shouldn't the transplantation of Hashirama's Senju cells at least have triggered "something"?

We are not a 100% on Madara gaining Rinnegan through Hashirama's cell transplantation because of having EMS, since he is the only full blood Uchiha to have ever transplanted Senju DNA.

So if Tob is an Uchiha, don't you think the transplantation would have triggered something?


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## Lurker909 (Apr 18, 2012)

Kung Pow said:


> I have got a little thought for you guys.
> 
> If Tobi indeed is a full blood Uchiha, shouldn?t the transplantation of Hashirama?s Senju cells at least have triggered "something"?
> 
> ...


_Yes._
Which is why I've been saying he's a Senjuchiha love child. >>
The best part is that this can overlap with almost any theory. Obito, Kagami, Shisui... works just fine.


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 19, 2012)

MYJC said:


> I don't mean a Bunshin-type clone, I'm talking about a clone created in a lab by someone. And in any case the clone doesn't have to look exactly like the original, there are imperfect clones. Again, Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama and looks nothing like him.



I covered this with my latter example, Yamato, who looks nothing like his original (Hashirama) but has the same powers.

This doesn't fly for Tobi, whose powers are nothing like Madara's.



> And Tobi does share at least one ability with Madara - they can both control the Kyuubi. Which was enough, in fact, to make Minato assume he had to be Madara.



That power is supposed to be related to the Sharingan, though. It's not an inherent power of Madara's, he was merely the only one who ever displayed it, mostly because he was the only one who ever had the opportunity to do so.

Going by what is written on the tablet, any Uchiha that has obtained the Mangekyou Sharingan should be able to control the Kyuubi. But since the Kyuubi had been sealed ever since Madara lost control of it, no Uchiha had ever had the chance to.



Kung Pow said:


> I have got a little thought for you guys.
> 
> If Tobi indeed is a full blood Uchiha, shouldn't the transplantation of Hashirama's Senju cells at least have triggered "something"?
> 
> ...



What would it have triggered?

Tobi doesn't possess EMS, heck he doesn't even possess a full set of Sharingan.

So it's not like what happened to Madara could have happened to him.


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## Kung Pow (Apr 19, 2012)

But "if" he possessed the blood inheritance of Yin considering powerful chakra and spiritual chakra, I think the combination of Senju DNA musr have triggered _something_.


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## dn072 (Apr 19, 2012)

How about: "Tobi was created through Izanami by Madara before he died". 

It is possible, especially the timing of introducing izanami and the reveal of tobi's identity

just a theory though but something to think about


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## arc (Apr 19, 2012)

TOBIRAMA SENJU


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## Kung Pow (Apr 19, 2012)

dn072 said:


> How about: "Tobi was created through Izanami by Madara before he died".
> 
> It is possible, especially the timing of introducing izanami and the reveal of tobi's identity
> 
> just a theory though but something to think about



Before Madara died he had Rinnegan, he could have simply created Tobi with Banbutsu Sozo, the creation of all things.


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## AoMythology (Apr 19, 2012)

Kung Pow said:


> Before Madara died he had Rinnegan, he could have simply created Tobi with Banbutsu Sozo, the creation of all things.



Yes, but he only had gotten Rinnegan recently; and Nagato, who had had it for years, never displayed Banbutsu Souzou.

It might be an ability unique to the Sage; the Rinnegan might not be enough - Izanagi (and possibly Izanami) are only imitations.


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## Talis (Apr 19, 2012)

Oh, another reason why Tobi can't be a Madara clone.
If he was a clone he could have taken both Rinnegans en use ''Madara''s EMS skills.


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## insane111 (Apr 19, 2012)

All of these theories are 100% dead to me, doesn't seem like there's many option left.

*Izuna*: Confirmed dead straight from Madara, after he even said that he knows who Tobi is. The DB said it too. What more do you need?

*Shisui*: Tobi attacked Konoha years before the massacre and Shisui's death. At this time Shisui had both his eyes, limbs, and according to Itachi, Naruto's ambition. Tobi already had goo arms at this point, and was clearly too old and twisted. To top all that off, giving one of his eyes to Itachi also makes absolutely no sense.

*Fugaku*: Tobi was willing to take his mask off in front of Sasuke. This theory also has some of the exact same holes in it that the Shisui one does. 

*Obito*: This is the worst one of them all, there's about 20 things wrong with this, but I want to keep it short.  Madara confirmed he knows who Tobi is, and Tobi is clearly way too old. When Tobi attacked Konoha, he also said something like "I've been waiting so long for this" implying he had been planning it for years. Also, he gave Nagato the Rinnegan long before Obito was even crushed. 

Who's left? Kagami? The problem with him is that he's no better than it being an unknown character. He appeared for like 1 panel and has never even been remotely hinted to have any relevance to the plot.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 20, 2012)

insane111 said:


> All of these theories are 100% dead to me, doesn't seem like there's many option left.
> 
> *Izuna*: Confirmed dead straight from Madara, after he even said that he knows who Tobi is. The DB said it too. What more do you need?
> 
> ...



THE ELDER SON? A gapless theory, which is always forgotten by most people.


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 20, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> THE ELDER SON? A gapless theory, which is always forgotten by most people.



The Elder son has the same problems as Kagami, he is irrelevant and no one cares about him.

Most of the ninja world doesn't even know he ever existed.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The Elder son has the same problems as Kagami, he is irrelevant and no one cares about him.
> 
> Most of the ninja world doesn't even know he ever existed.



Kishi never said it wouldnt be an irrelevant character. Furthermore he isnt that irrelevant. He is the father of the uchiha clan, who was humiliated by senju.
Also its one of the few theories without storygaps.

The fact that nobody cares about him doesnt mean anything.
Most of the ninjas dont know obito either.


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## puklica01 (Apr 20, 2012)

Im a shell of my former self, and he should use it for me (regarding Nagato res. jutsu ) Thats what Tobi said. When Madara has been ET he told something in the way that nagato has resed him. So im kinda still think that  there is a possibility that tobi is what has been left of Madara (either a zetsu clone or some other kind of memroy storage, persone he trusted enough ... )    When you think about it if Madara knew someone will resurect him/ have to resurect him, before he died, he had to left something/somebody do ensure it happens. Even if he would give the eyes to nagato by himself he couldnt ensure that he will res him. But he was seriosly sure that he has been resed by him. so thats why it must by someone something he trusted.


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## MYJC (Apr 20, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Oh, another reason why Tobi can't be a Madara clone.
> If he was a clone he could have taken both Rinnegans en use ''Madara''s EMS skills.



How do you figure that? Clones tend to not be as strong as the original. That's probably why he only uses one Rinnegan. Or it could be that his other eye has his S/T jutsu, making it too valuable for him to give up for a Rinnegan/EMS eye.


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 20, 2012)

Whoops, didn't realize this was were it was supposed to go. May as well repost it here and get opinions.




Shin - Zangetsu said:


> Oh man. I never thought I’d actually join in this Tobi shit but here goes. Didn't take too much thought, it just made sense and that's why I believe it for the moment.
> 
> Now, where to start. Okay straight to the point. I say he’s the Rikudou Sage’s *Elder son*. Of course this is not the first time you’ve heard this and just like anyone else’s theory this is something I genuinely believe and I’ll provide adequate reasoning to supplement the statement without just saying it and would love to engage in cool discussion. Here goes.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 20, 2012)

And for the rest of it.



Shin - Zangetsu said:


> *Miscellaneous stuff*
> 
> This miscellaneous but relevant stuff:
> 
> ...


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## insane111 (Apr 20, 2012)

I think the only options left that don't have massive plotholes are

1. Botched Madara Clone (in the same sense as Yamato/Hashi)
2. Elder son

Practically everyone else has at least one major contradiction that can't be explained away without some kind of major retcon.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 20, 2012)

Completely agree with: Shin - Zangetsu and insane111, glad to find some people with similar ways of thinking ;D


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## MYJC (Apr 20, 2012)

insane111 said:


> I think the only options left that don't have massive plotholes are
> 
> 1. Botched Madara Clone (in the same sense as Yamato/Hashi)
> 2. Elder son
> ...



Agreed. Either a clone, the Elder Son, or a totally new character we haven't seen before. None of the other options really make sense.


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## roger123jqu2z (Apr 20, 2012)

Tobi likes to treat everyone like pawns as madara had done. Also like madara, tobi likes to compliment on his opponent's strength. Personality wise he is very similar to madara. The arrogance, manipulative behavior and despise for leaf village very much the same. 
Not only that, how did tobi control the nine-tails? When madara is the only one to have acheived such a feat. It is known you need the MS to control the nine-tails fox, but Tobi had done with just his normal sharingan. This is one of the most perplexing thing about Tobi. Tobi being madara clone out of the question because he needs to be SOMEONE to have the power to control the ten tails juubi. 

I think tobi is actually a split of madara. Before madara died, he split himself becoming tobi. He took on a different appearance with long hair and tobi was getting old as his madara age. So he used harishama cells to keep him alive. He also probably modified his body to take on a different appearance and make him look younger. For instance, tobi could have used obito cells or physical parts of him to modify his appearance so tobi face looks little younger. This is what probably explains his similarity to obito. Not just obito, tobi could have used any other shinobi to modify him. Since tobi is part of madara it explains his ability to control nine-tail fox.


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## Talis (Apr 20, 2012)

Clone for final villian and for an amazing amusing revealment of a masked mans identity, some people really do think that Kishi's inspiriration is that one of a 70 years old bored grandpa.


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 20, 2012)

roger123jqu2z said:


> Tobi likes to treat everyone like pawns as madara had done. Also like madara, tobi likes to compliment on his opponent's strength. Personality wise he is very similar to madara. The arrogance, manipulative behavior and despise for leaf village very much the same.
> Not only that, how did tobi control the nine-tails? When madara is the only one to have acheived such a feat. It is known you need the MS to control the nine-tails fox, but Tobi had done with just his normal sharingan. This is one of the most perplexing thing about Tobi. Tobi being madara clone out of the question because he needs to be SOMEONE to have the power to control the ten tails juubi.
> 
> I think tobi is actually a split of madara. Before madara died, he split himself becoming tobi. He took on a different appearance with long hair and tobi was getting old as his madara age. So he used harishama cells to keep him alive. He also probably modified his body to take on a different appearance and make him look younger. For instance, tobi could have used obito cells or physical parts of him to modify his appearance so tobi face looks little younger. This is what probably explains his similarity to obito. Not just obito, tobi could have used any other shinobi to modify him. Since tobi is part of madara it explains his ability to control nine-tail fox.



Wow...just wow. Wrong section maybe?


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 21, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Kishi never said it wouldnt be an irrelevant character. Furthermore he isnt that irrelevant. He is the father of the uchiha clan, who was humiliated by senju.



None of this matters beyond setting up a plot point.



> Also its one of the few theories without storygaps.



Here's some storygaps:

If no one even knows he existed, why is he wearing a mask?

What happened to his old eyes?



> The fact that nobody cares about him doesnt mean anything.
> Most of the ninjas dont know obito either.



Kakashi and maybe Gai know Obito, and I'm sure there are others that are aware he existed.


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## Escargon (Apr 21, 2012)

Not to interrupt your theories BUT THE WHOLE KONOHA IS ATTACKING TOBI AND HIS FACE WILL PROPABLY MINDFK THEM ALL so i guess its future Sasuke.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Here's some storygaps:
> 
> If no one even knows he existed, why is he wearing a mask?
> 
> What happened to his old eyes?



He is wearing a mask, because he is using Obito's body (read my theory if you want to know why)

He gave them to Madara -> reason why he was able to awake the Rinnegan
or to Nagato-> Nagato got his eyes exactly when Tobi died, so possibly he was not able to hold the Rinnegan in a weak, dead body like Obito's, or he gave it to Nagato for another reason, fact is that he gave it to Nagato.

So again no storygaps. Continue searching


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## Mateush (Apr 21, 2012)

Not to forgot that Kishi would need a lot of time to explain about Tobi, now if he turns out be random like the elder son.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Not to forgot that Kishi would need a lot of time to explain about Tobi, now if he turns out be random like the elder son.



It would probably need about 2 or 3 chapters. (kabuto backstory is longer than 2 chapters, so it shouldnt be a problem)
And he is not random, that's no proof for the elder son not to be Tobi.


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## Mateush (Apr 21, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> It would probably need about 2 or 3 chapters. (kabuto backstory is longer than 2 chapters, so it shouldnt be a problem)
> And he is not random, that's no proof for the elder son not to be Tobi.



No proof if he is elder son. He in some way is Madara actually makes the most sense. The rest is only wishful thinking.


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## Ryan Ensign (Apr 21, 2012)

I still say he is Madara, must have used something like Muu's soul split or w/e.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> No proof if he is elder son. He in some way is Madara actually makes the most sense. The rest is only wishful thinking.



Of course their is no proof. There is no proof for any theories, that's the reason we discuss here for 1700 posts.


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## Mateush (Apr 21, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Of course their is no proof. There is no proof for any theories, that's the reason we discuss here for 1700 posts.



Haha, true. We will know sooner or later 

(but there is some sort of proof Tobi in some way is Madara. you can't deny it.)


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 21, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Haha, true. We will know sooner or later
> 
> (but there is some sort of proof Tobi in some way is Madara. you can't deny it.)



Right, I thought of that in my theory.


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## AoMythology (Apr 21, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Not to interrupt your theories BUT THE WHOLE KONOHA IS ATTACKING TOBI AND HIS FACE WILL PROPABLY MINDFK THEM ALL so i guess its future Sasuke.



That doesn't explain how he would have time traveled. Did he use his Sharingan Space-time powers, maybe? After all, Tobi is reportedly the best at that.

Not that I disagree with you. I am one who supported (or started? Not sure...) this theory.

Him being so weak compared to Sasuke's potential could be explained as him not possessing his full strength anymore.


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

*What if Tobi is Izuna?*

Think about it. Apart that Izuna's face looks much like Tobi's, a friend told me a theory that could be true. That friend told me he has a very reliable source.

Izuna and Madara found a way to rule the Narutoverse. Simply put, Izuna gave his eyes to Madara so Madara can have Eternal, and they planned that Madara fights with Hashirama so he can get Senju's DNA to acquire the Rinnegan.

Then Madara died. Izuna took cells from Madara and Hashirama so he can create Zetsu. He also took his eyes so he can give them to another so he can resurrect Madara. The man that took Madara's Rinnegan was Nagato. When Nagato died, Izuna would took his Rinnegan.
Then, Izuna and Madara could both have Rinnegan.

But when Nagato dies, Izuna betrayed Madara. He didn't resurrect him, his goal was to rule the world by himself. But he didn't thought that Kabuto has Madara's body.

As a theory, what do you think of this?
I think that it hasn't got any plotholes, and it explains everything.
Other theories couldn't really explain everything, there was always something that it was wrong.

What do you think?


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## Talis (Apr 21, 2012)

Tobi: ''If you wanna see my face, you have to work for it''.
Obito: ''What a ninja needs is discpline''.


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## dummy plug (Apr 21, 2012)

i wish they didn't prune the theories section of old


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

dummy plug said:


> i wish they didn't prune the theories section of old


Love ya <3


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## MrCatalyst (Apr 21, 2012)

So you say that Izuna was about 95-100 years old when Naruto was born and he took control of Kurama whilst looking young - hint, look at the bags under his eyes during the fight with Minato and in more recent chapter.
Now let's go to the War, Tobi is about 110-115 years old - you cannot explain that! And he's living without any problems, even though Uzumaki Mito - remember Uzumakis are known to live long - died at age of about 80, Izuna lived and still does over 30 years longer even though he's an Uchiha.

Let me explain it in much easier way:


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

Trans21 said:


> So you say that Izuna was about 95-100 years old when Naruto was born and he took control of Kurama whilst looking young - hint, look at the bags under his eyes during the fight with Minato and in more recent chapter.
> Now let's go to the War, Tobi is about 110-115 years old - you cannot explain that! And he's living without any problems, even though Uzumaki Mito - remember Uzumakis are known to live long - died at age of about 80, Izuna lived and still does over 30 years longer even though he's an Uchiha.
> 
> Let me explain it in much easier way:


So what if Mito lived until 80? Is that the age limit in Narutoverse? Tsuchikage maybe has lived more than her.

To be fair, that may be one of the unexplained things in this theory... But, as a general theory, it could be right. However, it's a detail and we should not bash this theory because of that, Tobi could do something about the age thing. I don't really know.

Now, I don't think there is a character that could explain both the age and the things that Tobi did so the whole plotholes could make sense.
The theory above explains everything I can think of. Why Madara knows of Tobi and Nagato, why Tobi was surprised that Kabuto had Madara's body, why Madara knows the Eye of the Moon Plan...


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## MrCatalyst (Apr 21, 2012)

Tsuchikage fought Madara after forming of the Konoha so we can assume Tsuchikage = ~same age as Mito = ~same age as Hashirama. Mito was an Uzumaki, so she could live long but maybe she couldn't but living for about 115-120 years is impossible, hence why this theory is full of fail.

I mean, if Izuna is allowed to live 120 years, why is Hashi dead? Apparently he can only defeat Madara, and since Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives, we can just assume he could live even longer than Uchiha. No?


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

Trans21 said:


> Tsuchikage fought Madara after forming of the Konoha so we can assume Tsuchikage = ~same age as Mito = ~same age as Hashirama. Mito was an Uzumaki, so she could live long but maybe she couldn't but living for about 115-120 years is impossible, hence why this theory is full of fail.
> 
> I mean, if Izuna is allowed to live 120 years, why is Hashi dead? Apparently he can only defeat Madara, and since Uzumaki and Senju are distant relatives, we can just assume he could live even longer than Uchiha. No?


We haven't seen Hashirama's death, have we? Do we know if he died from age or from something else?

Tsuchikage = same age as Mito, but he still lives. And I think he will live for a long time after that.

Normally, living 120 years is indeed impossible, but we don't know if Izuna did something for this. Maybe it's a power of Eternal, maybe he infused cells from Zetsu. I don't think that's the case however, but come on, we have seen unbelievable things in Naruto, such as Kabuto resurrecting people or if he has the DNA of some people he can make them whole again. Why are you stuck on this age thing?


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## BlazingCobaltX (Apr 21, 2012)

Then I'd say "Told you so!".


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2012)

I would rather Izuna be Tobi then Obito.


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## dummy plug (Apr 21, 2012)

F3ar0ner said:


> Nobody told you to enter this thread mate.



lol if you understood what i posted you'd realize that your post actually triggered my interest with Naruto theories again, which is why i got hooked with NF in the first place...but alas, most good theories got pruned 

Nobody told you to be a prick mate


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## MrCatalyst (Apr 21, 2012)

Tsuchikage can break the rules of Narutoverse because he can.


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

dummy plug said:


> lol if you understood what i posted you'd realize that your post actually triggered my interest with Naruto theories again, which is why i got hooked with NF in the first place...but alas, most good theories got pruned
> 
> Nobody told you to be a prick mate


 Really???
My bad, sorry, I'm from Europe and I don't understand English very well.
Again, I'm really sorry  <3



Trans21 said:


> Tsuchikage can break the rules of Narutoverse because he can.


He could do that


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## dummy plug (Apr 21, 2012)

nah we're good


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## atduncan (Apr 21, 2012)

What is Izuna is some blind deaf mute named Hellen Keller?


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## Raiden (Apr 21, 2012)

Trans21 said:


> ng - hint, look at the bags under his eyes during the fight with Minato and in more recent chapter.



And a full head of hair. Yet Sandaime Hokage lost some of his hair in his old age. We can't really judge based on appearance.


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## Talis (Apr 21, 2012)

Wtf is this?
How would this sound?
What if Obito faked his death?
He faked his death because he knew Madara would come to safe his ass and give him the Senju Dna. After that Obito used the ET on RS to hear the story of the past.
Well sounds stupid right?
But seriously how did you come with ''Izuna simply gave his eyes to Madara to give him the EMS''.
They were freaking not aware of the EMS. 
And wait, what? Izuna and Nagato both took  Madara's Rinnegan?


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

atduncan said:


> What is Izuna is some blind deaf mute named Hellen Keller?


No, wait, that's a bad theory...


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Wtf is this?
> How would this sound?
> What if Obito faked his death?
> He faked his death because he knew Madara would come to safe his ass and give him the Senju Dna. After that Obito used the ET on RS to hear the story of the past.
> ...


Why do you react like this on the part about Rinnegan?
How else could have Tobi have the Rinnegan and give it to Nagato as he stated in the manga? Did he cook it?

Maybe you are right about the EMS part. But what about Naka Shrine?

It's not my theory...


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## atduncan (Apr 21, 2012)

There are easier ways to go about getting senju dna than all that anyway. Just take Tsunade's nephew Yukiyo and autopsy that bitch


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## Panther (Apr 21, 2012)

when tobi was talking with sasuke about the history of the uchiha clan . he said that his stubbornness and unique powerfull chakra even amongst the uchiha clan was a testamend for him surviving for so long !

also there is hashiramas flesh he stole from his battle in VOTE wich he uses to make zetsu and body parts !

im sure that tsunade commented that tobi implanted himself with hashiramas dna and is the true meaning of the word immortal !


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## atduncan (Apr 21, 2012)

NamikazE UzumakI NarutO said:


> when tobi was talking with sasuke about the history of the uchiha clan . he said that his stubbornness and unique powerfull chakra even amongst the uchiha clan was a testamend for him surviving for so long !
> 
> also there is hashiramas flesh he stole from his battle in VOTE wich he uses to make zetsu and body parts !
> 
> im sure that tsunade commented that tobi implanted himself with hashiramas dna and is the true meaning of the word immortal !



actually Hidan was more immortal, but whose counting


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## Panther (Apr 21, 2012)

^ 

hidan could only be immortal by sacrificing people to his god

i explained how tobi could survive so long and keep his body in a youthfull condition with zetsu goo wich he makes limbs from.

that commend about tobi was made by tsunade after she returned with A from narutos and bees location. here
here


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 21, 2012)

President Goobang said:


> And a full head of hair. Yet Sandaime Hokage lost some of his hair in his old age. We can't really judge based on appearance.


Wait, if Sasuke reached the age of Hiruzen, would he get bald too?







NamikazE UzumakI NarutO said:


> ^
> 
> hidan could only be immortal by sacrificing people to his god
> 
> ...


That solves the age thing.

And...


> Maybe it's a power of Eternal, maybe he infused cells from Zetsu.


...I was right.

Kinda...


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## Rinnegan Zetsu (Apr 22, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken, Madara confirmed Izuna for dead.


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## Kaname Kuran (Apr 22, 2012)

Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> If I'm not mistaken, Madara confirmed Izuna for dead.



From Tobi the poster boy for being truthful  we have also seen another person in Akatsuki who can make exact duplicates so even with the picture of someone in a coffin could've easily been faked <.<


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Tobi: ''If you wanna see my face, you have to work for it''.
> Obito: ''What a ninja needs is discpline''.



Tobi, about Nagato's eyes (Rinnegan): "They were mine to begin with."
Rikudo-Myth: "The Elder was born with the Sage's eyes."


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## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Tobi, about Nagato's eyes (Rinnegan): "They were mine to begin with."
> Rikudo-Myth: "The Elder was born with the Sage's eyes."


Wow a really good one, to bad there are like 100 characters with that eye.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Wow a really good one, to bad there are like 100 characters with that eye.



100 characters with the rinnegan? wow that's new to me


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## MYJC (Apr 22, 2012)

Ryan Ensign said:


> I still say he is Madara, must have used something like Muu's soul split or w/e.



Or, Madara just made a Zetsu-clone of himself to carry on his work after he died. 

Would certainly explain why he's partially made of Zetsu goo, and why he can control the Kyuubi. 

*will continue pushing this theory*


----------



## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> 100 characters with the rinnegan? wow that's new to me


100 users had them and he was talking in Madara's perspective...


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> 100 users had them and he was talking in Madara's perspective...



I still dont get ur point.


----------



## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I still dont get ur point.


He was talking in Madara's way the whole time, just as he said with the eyes.
You can't refuse this even since Madara clearly had the Rinnegan.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> He was talking in Madara's way the whole time, just as he said with the eyes.
> You can't refuse this even since Madara clearly had the Rinnegan.



Ok, but that would still match with my theory.


----------



## son_michael (Apr 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Or, Madara just made a Zetsu-clone of himself to carry on his work after he died.
> 
> Would certainly explain why he's partially made of Zetsu goo, and why he can control the Kyuubi.
> 
> *will continue pushing this theory*



why would you want such a stupid outcome?


----------



## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Or, Madara just made a Zetsu-clone of himself to carry on his work after he died.
> 
> Would certainly explain why he's partially made of Zetsu goo, and why he can control the Kyuubi.
> 
> *will continue pushing this theory*


It's confirmed that you can controle the Kyuubi with Senju+Uchiha Dna, such a dumb reason good enough to make Tobito become true.


----------



## F3ar0ner (Apr 22, 2012)

Kaname Kuran said:


> From Tobi the poster boy for being truthful  we have also seen another person in Akatsuki who can make exact duplicates so even with the picture of someone in a coffin could've easily been faked <.<


Maybe he's talking about when Madara tells to himself something about Izuna, I don't really remember.


----------



## DUNGEON (Apr 22, 2012)

izuna or elder son of sage.only possibilities i see now..


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## Appleofeden (Apr 22, 2012)

You mean the quarter of his face that we've seen looks like Izuna? If Tobi revealed his face there  wouldn't be a debate. And "my friend has a reliable source" pffft unless your willing to reveal who this friend is and where and how he gets his info such statements are fucking retarded. Tobi very well could be Izuna but there's nothing in this thread that hasn't been said a 1000x times. The thing with Tobi being Izuna is its boring of all the options that's the most boring one. There's no one in the manga with ties to Izuna. Tobi being Izuna would be the same as Tobi being Tobi, his  identity wouldnt really matter. That could be what Kishi is going for though, Tobi could just be the means to resurect the Juubi and not the real FV. @ which it wouldnt matter who Tobi really is.


----------



## Escargon (Apr 22, 2012)

Why would it be Izuna if hes made of Zetsu parts?

Hes either a character that:

1. Got severely damaged.

2. Survived death somehow but is forced to get a modified Zetsu body with almost no power.

3. Is just a Zetsu clone.

And no, Izuna doesnt look like Tobi. Madara looks like Tobi. Only Madara got Tobis eyesacks. 

Then how come Tobi looks like Madara?

 He took Madaras DNA. Like, Yamato and Zetsu, they both look like Hashirama. But Tobi is a bit more different, atleast half of his face looks like Madara. 

And i do pity Tobi, he thought noone would find Madaras DNA, thats why he made up that hes Madara, but Kabuto trolled him, took his DNA somehow, and ressurected Madara infront of him. 
Yeah, he got a little bit pissed cause of that, especially when Kabuto mocked him by talking about the DNA he couldnt found, and Tobi said "dont push your luck."

If you look at chapter 510, why would Kishimoto shadow half of his face? Cause he got another face. You see, he implanted Madara into him, and he somehow cheated death or something that made him lose his power.

So why is it Izuna if he lost all of his power, is made of Zetsu goo (its not about immortality, there already are different things you can do to gain "immortality" so why would you make yourself into Zetsu), got the same eyebags as Madara (the lines under the first eyebag is due to age, like Mifune, so its not scars) and can rip off his arms but at the same time, feel pain if he gets hit somewhere else?

Why would it be Izuna? What happened to him? Why would Kishi fuck up Izuna so much by adding Zetsu crap and taking away most of his powers? 

Do you think its over here? Why did Kisame bite off his tongue to not make the Konoha take any information? Is there a Tobi clone that works with Konoha or what? Doesnt mean he looks like Tobi, Tobi might have two faces, but he can still create a clone of his former self.

Would you get trolled if hes a Konoha elder?


----------



## Escargon (Apr 22, 2012)

Hey guys, Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis face.

Tobi propably got a clone of himself working for Konoha.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 22, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Hey guys, Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis face.
> 
> Tobi propably got a clone of himself working for Konoha.



This or it actually was real Madara which told the details about his plan to Kisame.


----------



## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

Mateush said:


> This or it actually was real Madara which told the details about his plan to Kisame.


Ah, of course.
I've always said that it was the real Madara which told his whole plan about Tobi taking his role to Kisame, and that was the reason why Kisame cut off his tongue, why didn't i figure out about that tongue thingy before.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Apr 22, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Hey guys, Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis face.
> 
> Tobi propably got a clone of himself working for Konoha.





Mateush said:


> This or it actually was real Madara which told the details about his plan to Kisame.



It means Tobi's face doesn't look like Madara's.

Because he isn't Madara.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> It means Tobi's face doesn't look like Madara's.
> 
> Because he isn't Madara.



Yes Tobi may has different body and Kisame knows all about it. Still he wanted to confirm it was Madara and demanded him to show himself, so he probably knows what Madara looks like.


----------



## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Yes Tobi may has different body and Kisame knows all about it. Still he wanted to confirm it was Madara and demanded him to show himself, so he probably knows what Madara looks like.


Kisame knew how the real Madara looked like, thats why he said ''s*how me yourself*, i believe he's long dead''.
Then a maskless figure with Madara's hair came out, clearly the real Madara.
He might have told Kisame about Tobi's face that the one side looks wrinkled and the other young. 
And yeah, i am still lolling at the people accepting Tobi being Madara with haircut while they are refusing the long haired guy at Kisames flashback to be Madara lol. It's just too hilarious.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Apr 22, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Yes Tobi may has different body and Kisame knows all about it. Still he wanted to confirm it was Madara and demanded him to show himself, so he probably knows what Madara looks like.



He definitely knows what Madara looked like, and he also knew that Tobi didn't look like Madara, which is why he killed himself to prevent Aoba and the others from learning what Tobi really looked like.



loool3 said:


> Kisame knew how the real Madara looked like, thats why he said ''s*how me yourself*, i believe he's long dead''.
> Then a maskless figure with Madara's hair came out, clearly the real Madara.
> He might have told Kisame about Tobi's face that the one side looks wrinkled and the other young.
> And yeah, i am still lolling at the people accepting Tobi being Madara with haircut while they are refusing the long haired guy at Kisames flashback to be Madara lol. It's just too hilarious.



The masked man from the Mist was Tobi. Kisame outright says it when he meets Tobi later.


----------



## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> He definitely knows what Madara looked like, and he also knew that Tobi didn't look like Madara, which is why he killed himself to prevent Aoba and the others from learning what Tobi really looked like.
> 
> 
> 
> The masked man from the Mist was Tobi. Kisame outright says it when he meets Tobi later.


If it was the real Madara which told his plan about Tobi taking Madara's role then Kisame would obviously call Tobi as Madara in a cocky way like he did.


----------



## Escargon (Apr 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> It means Tobi's face doesn't look like Madara's.
> 
> Because he isn't Madara.



Well i think Tobi got Uchiha DNA cause his visible face clearly look like an Uchihas. 

But at the same time, Kishimoto shadowed half of Tobis face to hide something. Maybe his real identity.

Just a theory, but even if you have implanted someone into your body, you can still make a good clone of yourself looking like your former self. Plus, the clone Tobi made is propably working for Konoha as i stated. 

As i already stated:

1. Kisame wanted to hide Tobis face from Konoha.

2. Isnt the whole Konoha going to Tobi at this moment? What does Kishi intend to do? When the mask is finally broken, his face will look mindfuck the whole Konoha i guess.

3. He knows so much about Konoha. 

Yes, maybe thats the reason he wears a mask. Cause one of his advanced clones is working for Konoha. Otherwise in the wrong hands, his plans might get destroyed.

Then who the F can he be?

Mitokado=D?


----------



## Talis (Apr 22, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Well i think Tobi got Uchiha DNA cause his visible face clearly look like an Uchihas.
> 
> But at the same time, Kishimoto shadowed half of Tobis face to hide something. Maybe his real identity.
> 
> ...


This have been mindfcking me too.
Why does the rookies have to be there to reveal Tobi?
Non of the candidates won't be actually surprising to the rookies.
Unless it will end like Dbz heroes vs Cell lol.
Naruto halfdies there losing the Kyuubi while Kakashi goes SSJ 2 rampage to reveal Tobito.


----------



## MYJC (Apr 22, 2012)

son_michael said:


> why would you want such a stupid outcome?



What's stupid about it?



loool3 said:


> It's confirmed that you can controle the Kyuubi with Senju+Uchiha Dna, such a dumb reason good enough to make Tobito become true.



A clone (designed expressly for this purpose) makes more sense than Obito/Izuna/Shisui randomly somehow having Senju DNA and being able to control the Kyuubi. 

The only viable candidates for Tobi's identity (IMO) are:

1. Clone Madara created to carry on his will
2. Elder Son
3. Completely new character

The other options can probably be disregarded.

1. Obito - Timeline doesn't match up (an adult-size Tobi attacked Konoha only a year after he died); no motivation

2. Izuna - Madara (who knows who Tobi is) says Izuna is dead, plus Izuna would be kind of irrelevant - he wasn't even named in the manga

3. Shisui - Considering that an adult-size Tobi attacked Konoha when Itachi was only 4 or 5, Shisui would have to be MUCH older than Itachi, which I don't think was the case. Plus, both of his eyes were destroyed (Danzo had one, Itachi had one). In addition, why would Shisui attack Konoha with the Kyuubi and frame his clan?

4. Sage of the Six Paths - Hair color doesn't match up, plus if he was the Sage he'd know the Bjuu's names

5. Kagami Uchiha - Irrelevant background character

6. Setsuna Uchiha - Even more irrelevant than Kagami

7. Evil future Sasuke -


----------



## roger123jqu2z (Apr 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> Or, Madara just made a Zetsu-clone of himself to carry on his work after he died.
> 
> Would certainly explain why he's partially made of Zetsu goo, and why he can control the Kyuubi.
> 
> *will continue pushing this theory*



I think the reason why tobi can control the nine-tails because he is either split of madara or physically part of him. As a result, he controls the fox so effortlessly. In the anime, right when tobi took control of the fox, the nine-tails recognized his chakra suggesting tobi could still be madara. (split) I think zetsu goo is what keeps tobi alive or maybe someone else modified tobi with zetsu material. For instance, he was one of orichimaru or madara experiment and was modified.


----------



## NW (Apr 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> What's stupid about it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, why can't everyone just hop off the Madara train???? According to your logic, Kishi decided that he would introduce a character and make us think he was a kid who was crushed by a huge boulder, then he would make us think that that character was actually the dead leader of the Uchiha clan, then he would make us think he wasn't that dead uchiha clan leader, only , after all that, to make us find out that the person that we now thought wasn't that dead uchiha leader was actually a mere clone of that leader in the first place. It makes no sense! If Kishi was gonna make Tobi Madara, he would have made him the real Madara and not introduced Edo Madara. Besides, don't you think we've got enough Madaras already? (Edo Madara + 25 mokuton madara clones)






MYJC said:


> Obito - Timeline doesn't match up (an adult-size Tobi attacked Konoha only a year after he died); no motivation



Have you seen how tall Kakashi and Guy were at that time? They were clearly much taller than one would expect them to be. Plus, if we knew Obito's motivation, it would be a giveaway of him being Tobi. If Tobi is Obito, his motivation will likely be revealed after the mask comes off. The reason it would be so shocking at first to the general audience for Tobi to be Obito, is because they would, at first, have no idea why someone like Obito would be doing all this.


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## First Tsurugi (Apr 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> If it was the real Madara which told his plan about Tobi taking Madara's role then Kisame would obviously call Tobi as Madara in a cocky way like he did.



Except Kisame literally calls Tobi Mizukage, confirming that he was the one controlling Yagura, and not some other guy.



Escargon said:


> Well i think Tobi got Uchiha DNA cause his visible face clearly look like an Uchihas.
> 
> But at the same time, Kishimoto shadowed half of Tobis face to hide something. Maybe his real identity.
> 
> ...



You should stop relying on drawn features, they aren't reliable.

There are a number of plot related indicators that suggest Tobi's face looks nothing like Madara's.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> What's stupid about it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



wat about fugaku?


----------



## AoMythology (Apr 22, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> wat about fugaku?



Can you really see Fugaku as having enough genjutsu prowess to control the Kyuubi, with a basic Sharingan no less?


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## T-Bag (Apr 22, 2012)

AoMythology said:


> Can you really see Fugaku as having enough genjutsu prowess to control the Kyuubi, with a basic Sharingan no less?



how do you know that's all he was capable of? he was a shady friend


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## son_michael (Apr 22, 2012)

MYJC said:


> What's stupid about it?



It would render the mask pointless, be completely anti climatic and what would be the big shocking reveal? It is by far the worst option out of any tobi theory.


----------



## JPongo (Apr 22, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> how do you know that's all he was capable of? he was a shady friend



It's just like haters saying Minato only has what he's shown.

Double standard much?

lol.

I go for Elder Son at this point after Izuna was exxed out.


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## puklica01 (Apr 23, 2012)

just a few of my own to obito theory.
First I hate this theory - comes to me like the biggest crap what could happen.
Second I think Obito character soley purpose was to explain how kakashi got sharingan and why he is thinking of  teamwork (friendship)  so high.

Kishi would need to create a whole new story for obito from a friend loving character to a man who wanna controll all... to far to idiotic to even think about and too disapointing it would be.

On the other hand The Older brother has the best story background of all. Would fit the picture in all aspects. He could be the one responsible for Madara surviving the hashirama fight. Maybe he wanted to resurect Madara because he needed an uchiha with a special power/ability.
I think there is a huge pool you can get of the story with as it is with the older brother or even with madara. But there is nothing more to get from Obito just nonsense.


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah, Tobi looks more like Madara, but it will be weird and awful for the story to be him.


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## atduncan (Apr 23, 2012)

Fine, I told Kishi I wouldn't do this, but I can't stand to see the pain this is causing you all. I will reveal who in fact tobi is.

Tobi  is really : Lindsey Lohan


----------



## Shaz (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah she needs a mask to hide her sexyness, seduced Madara in giving him his Rinnegan, now Madara feels played and is on a rampage, best theory as of yet.


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## Talis (Apr 23, 2012)

MYJC said:


> What's stupid about it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool troll bro, but Tobi has short hairs while Madara has long hairs.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 23, 2012)

izuna is not even mentioned in the manga. he is irrelevant. his character was just to show how madara got his EMS and nothing more


----------



## Viper (Apr 23, 2012)

All evidence so far points to Teuchi.


----------



## Lmao (Apr 23, 2012)

Just Tobi

Too bad his playful behaviour was washed away,now he's just your classic villain


----------



## TJFuZioN (Apr 23, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Well i think Tobi got Uchiha DNA cause his visible face clearly look like an Uchihas.
> 
> But at the same time, Kishimoto shadowed half of Tobis face to hide something. Maybe his real identity.
> 
> ...



How hilarious would it be if Tobi was this completely new character we'd never heard of, but then all of Konoha act like they'd always known him and he gets retconned into 500 chapters of manga continuity.

Sakura: "OMG! It's Tamaki Senju!"

Naruto:"Sh%t! Yeah of course! You mean Tsunade's half-Uchiha nephew who has always been our good friend! I remember how he was gonna come with us to the Land of Waves that one time but had to study for his Jonin exams. Did I ever tell you he helped me and Jiraya develop 'That Jutsu' during the timeskip?"

Kiba:"WHY Tamaki?!"

Queue 20 chapters of backstory...


----------



## NW (Apr 23, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> how do you know that's all he was capable of? he was a shady friend



Tobi: 175.0 cm and 55.9 kg

Fugaku: 175.3 cm and 63.1 kg

Plus, the shape of their eyes is completely different. It would be a cool twist but it doesn't seem possible.



puklica01 said:


> just a few of my own to obito theory.
> First I hate this theory - comes to me like the biggest crap what could happen.
> Second I think Obito character soley purpose was to explain how kakashi got sharingan and why he is thinking of  teamwork (friendship)  so high.
> 
> Kishi would need to create a whole new story for obito from a friend loving character to a man who wanna controll all... to far to idiotic to even think about and too disapointing it would be.



Sure, one of obito's purposes was to explain how kakashi got his sharingan. But don't you find it suspicious that Kishi held off on telling us how Kakashi got his mangekyo or what happened to Rin? If Kishi does it right, Obito could fit as the final villain. You're talking as if you already know the result of Tobi being obito, which you don't. No one knows how Kishi could handle it. I mean, Obito was an exact parallel to naruto back in the day, so an evil Obito would be the exact opposite to naruto and a suitable final villain. think about it. On the other hand, the Older Son seems plausible too. I'm actually starting to like that theory. But, if Tobi was one of the two sons. I think the Younger one would work better.


----------



## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 23, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> How hilarious would it be if Tobi was this completely new character we'd never heard of, but then all of Konoha act like they'd always known him and he gets retconned into 500 chapters of manga continuity.
> 
> Sakura: "OMG! It's Tamaki Senju!"
> 
> ...



This made me lol.


----------



## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 23, 2012)

i think tobi is the ten tails he put the chakra in to the nine tail beasts the body in the moon where is the mind its in a human body with low levels of chakra so thats why he wants to put the tailed beasts back together thats how he knows madara and the sage of six paths story


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## NW (Apr 23, 2012)

Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> i think tobi is the ten tails he put the chakra in to the nine tail beasts the body in the moon where is the mind its in a human body with low levels of chakra so thats why he wants to put the tailed beasts back together thats how he knows madara and the sage of six paths story



Well, it's possible. Definitely seems like a cool idea. But, he'd have to be in the body of someone recognizable. So, I'm not sure who that could be.....


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## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 23, 2012)

why would he have to be in a body of someone recognizable sage of six paths can create the tailed beasts why cant he create a body for someone


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 23, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi: 175.0 cm and 55.9 kg
> 
> Fugaku: 175.3 cm and 63.1 kg
> 
> ...



The elder one fits better because of his eyes (he possesses the rinnegan/sharingan) and the fact that he is not the heiress of rikudo, what means that he hates his brother. He is the father of all Uchihas, who started the fight vs the Senju. But I am glad that you treat the theory as plausible.


----------



## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 23, 2012)

have you read my theory and we see fugaku's body so its not very plasuable u know what i mean


----------



## Scizor (Apr 23, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> How hilarious would it be if Tobi was this completely new character we'd never heard of, but then all of Konoha act like they'd always known him and he gets retconned into 500 chapters of manga continuity.
> 
> Sakura: "OMG! It's Tamaki Senju!"
> 
> ...



That'd be some real Tsukishima stuff


----------



## TJFuZioN (Apr 23, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi: 175.0 cm and 55.9 kg
> 
> Fugaku: 175.3 cm and 63.1 kg
> 
> ...



This, I think, is why Tobito is such an attractive theory. It would fit in so well with the generations theme and the Proto-Team 7 motif that runs through the manga. Every major villain has been closely linked to the Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke dynamic(sure, Kishi dropped the ball a bit with Sakura, but it can still work). Oro and Jiraya were forerunners of Sasuke and Naruto, while Obito and Kakashi were like bizarro versions of them (Kekkei Genkai-less genius vs Uchiha f%kup). Even Nagato's team had a little bit of that going on. Also, both Jiraya and Kakashi were Naruto's mentors from each side of the genius/hardworker spectrum, who both failed to keep their team together. It would be so poetic if Tobi turned out to be Kakashi's Sasuke AND Nega-Naruto, allowing Naruto to succeed where both his senseis failed.

That being said, I still think Tobi=Juubi's Will is the best option.


----------



## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 23, 2012)

ok but maybe he is a decayed body so thats the surprise


----------



## NW (Apr 23, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> The elder one fits better because of his eyes (he possesses the rinnegan/sharingan) and the fact that he is not the heir of rikudo, what means that he hates his brother. He is the father of all Uchihas, who started the fight vs the Senju. But I am glad that you treat the theory as plausible.



The reason i think the Younger Son would make more sense if it was one of them is because i think he'd make a better antagonist. I know that sounds stupid, but listen. I think that the Younger Son inherited the Sage's will, he saw the curse of Hatred re-occur in every generation. He could have come to the conclusion that the world is worthless and thus would be better off under his complete control. He felt that his purpose in life was incomplete now and unfulfilled, thus why Tobi said, "I'm No One. I don't want to be anyone. All I care about is completing the Moon's Eye Plan". He became so corrupt that he stole his brother's eyes and killed him, thus giving him Uchiha AND Senju power. But he felt as though he wasn't yet complete. He felt that, to fully fulfill his role, he needed to be everything his father was. Including the Juubi's jinchuriki. This is why he wants to do all this. To truly become the next Rikudo and bring his new vision of peace to the world, the vision which he adopted from his Elder Brother. 

   Kinda choppy but seems plausible. I mean, He'd basically be a fallen, evil, corrupt version of Naruto, and make a great antagonist to him.



Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> why would he have to be in a body of someone recognizable sage of six paths can create the tailed beasts why cant he create a body for someone



I say that because if his face wasn't recognizable, what would be the shock of him taking off his mask for it to be some new face?


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## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 23, 2012)

i like some of the theorys


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## T-Bag (Apr 23, 2012)

JPongo said:


> It's just like haters saying Minato only has what he's shown.
> 
> Double standard much?
> 
> ...



unlike ur gay partner minato, fugaku hasn't shown anything, we barely even know anything about him. not the same



Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> have you read my theory and we see fugaku's body so its not very plasuable u know what i mean



how u kno it wasnt genjutsu?



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi: 175.0 cm and 55.9 kg
> 
> Fugaku: 175.3 cm and 63.1 kg
> 
> Plus, the shape of their eyes is completely different. It would be a cool twist but it doesn't seem possible.



u have to consider tobi = madara at the time, so his height and weight and w/e can differ now that he isn't "madara uchiha"


----------



## Golden Circle (Apr 24, 2012)

If Tobi is Izuna, he'd have died of old age by now.

Sad truth is truth.


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## Golden Circle (Apr 24, 2012)

Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> why would he have to be in a body of someone recognizable sage of six paths can create the tailed beasts why cant he create a body for someone


While what you say is plausible, the fact that Tobi wants to undo what RS did makes it seem a bit outlandish. Here's hoping we get a reason.


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## Taijukage (Apr 24, 2012)

madara said izuna died and the only thing he left behind was his eyes. why would this be the case if he is alive and planned moons eye with madara?


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Apr 24, 2012)

For those who read the manga, Izuna is somewhat of a nobody. I believe the anime emphasised his existence and his ''duty'' more than the manga did.

I hope Tobi isn't Izuna, but it's plausible I suppose.


----------



## NW (Apr 24, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> u have to consider tobi = madara at the time, so his height and weight and w/e can differ now that he isn't "madara uchiha"



You have a point. But, Narutopedia still says that under Tobi. I guess it wasn't really confirmed which one it was though, so maybe.


----------



## AoMythology (Apr 24, 2012)

Scizor said:


> That'd be some real Tsukishima stuff



Indeed. It reminds me of a oneshot fanfic I've read in which everyone was being converted by a parody Sue and Sasuke (at least I think it was Sasuke) was trying to unbrainwash everyone.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 25, 2012)

Ryan Ensign said:


> I still say he is Madara, must have used something like Muu's soul split or w/e.



No.



Escargon said:


> Hey guys, Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis face.
> 
> Tobi propably got a clone of himself working for Konoha.



So Tobi made another of himself? lolwut.



Mateush said:


> This or it actually was real Madara which told the details about his plan to Kisame.



But how would Madara still be alive? Madara died way before Kisame was even born. It's most likely Tobi. He had the same exact mask from the time he fought Minato. Plus, that was the time when he was recruiting Members for Akatsuki. He even told Kisame about his Moon's eye plan, which I'm pretty sure was originally Tobi's plan. Not Madara's. 



insane111 said:


> Who's left? Kagami? The problem with him is that he's no better than it being an unknown character. He appeared for like 1 panel and has never even been remotely hinted to have any relevance to the plot.



I don't follow any theory, but the Kagami one is the theory that I support the most. Just because Kagami is an unknown character, that doesn't mean he can't be Tobi. Doesn't matter if he appeared for only one panel. The flashback where he appeared in was for made for Danzo, not him. Kagami will probably be shown more later in the manga. That is, if Kishi is planning Tobi to be him.



insane111 said:


> I think the only options left that don't have massive plotholes are
> 
> 1. Botched Madara Clone (in the same sense as Yamato/Hashi)



*Sigh* Enough with the "Tobi is a clone of Madara" theories. I admit that the theory does make sense, but people need to realize how lame it would be if Tobi turned out to be a mere clone of Madara.



Escargon said:


> Not to interrupt your theories BUT THE WHOLE KONOHA IS ATTACKING TOBI AND HIS FACE WILL PROPABLY MINDFK THEM ALL so i guess its future Sasuke.



Don't get me started on the Future Sasuke theory.



Mateush said:


> Which is why it would be better if Tobi was put under genjutsu like Kotoamatsukami. I also have a feeling that during Kisame's flashback he met the real Madara, not Tobi. Because the current Tobi hadn't showed something genjutsu to be capable of controlling one Kage (otherwise he should control all these current kages). Not to mention the long hair which is quite obviously.



No, it was Tobi. I'm like 99% sure it was. And long hair doesn't really matter. Plus, Madara wouldn't be alive.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> I just had an idea. Is it possible that Obito is the reincarnation of Izuna? Madara could have told him about his past life and had him carry on the plan he originally made with Izuna. So, Obito gained some of Izuna's knowledge of the shinobi world and his powers. It's pretty out there but it's possible. I mean, one of the reasons that I think he's Izuna's reincarnation, is because they share the EXACT SAME birthday and bloodtype.



I highly doubt that Obito is a reincarnation Izuna even though they share the exact same birthdate and bloodtype.



Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> I believe Tobi is either Sasuke Sarutobi or Madara's chakra that he split from himself with Creation of All Things before he died.



Seriously, you think Sarutobi Hiruzen falls into the possibilities of him being Tobi out of all people? omg.



Raventhal said:


> Kagami Uchiha has now shot to the top of my list.  He has the hair and the age for the look.  Old enough to know Madara and be there for Nagato.



Yes. And he also has many facts that can lead him to be Tobi.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> That's clearly a HUGE exaggeration. Sasuke's powerful, sure, but to say he's the most talented Uchiha is ridiculous, let alone the second most talented character. Right off the top of my head i can already name some Uchihas who are more talented than Sasuke: Shisui, Itachi, Madara, Izuna, Tobi, the Sage of Six Paths Elder Son(if he counts as an uchiha). And as for overall characters who are more talented: Naruto, Minato, Itachi, Tobirama, Hashirama, Madara, Shisui, Izuna, Itachi, Rikudo, Rikudo's older son, Rikudo's younger son and Tobi.



Every character in the Naruto universe is more talented than Sasuke. Sasuke _has_ no talent. Take away his Sharingan = Weakling. He has no skill whatsoever.


----------



## GaarasSand (Apr 25, 2012)

I think it is madras brother.


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## Mateush (Apr 25, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> But how would Madara still be alive? Madara died way before Kisame was even born. It's most likely Tobi. He had the same exact mask from the time he fought Minato. Plus, that was the time when he was recruiting Members for Akatsuki. He even told Kisame about his Moon's eye plan, which I'm pretty sure was originally Tobi's plan. Not Madara's.



Not sure if it was way before Kisame was born. He knows Nagato, it means he have lived longer than we think.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 25, 2012)

He's Uchiha Kagami, the father of Uchiha Shisui and Uzumaki Nagato.


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## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 25, 2012)

i wanna add to my past theory maybe the reason he wears a mask is cus he doesnt have a face because the sage of six paths didnt have enough chakra to make a face and details he just made a body and head thats why he has zetsu arms and legs i mean its white stuff coming out aswell as blood so it make sense and stole his eyes from an uchiha or madara after he died thats why he cant turn it off


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## Talis (Apr 25, 2012)

Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> i wanna add to my past theory maybe the reason he wears a mask is cus he doesnt have a face because the sage of six paths didnt have enough chakra to make a face and details he just made a body and head thats why he has zetsu arms and legs i mean its white stuff coming out aswell as blood so it make sense and stole his eyes from an uchiha or madara after he died thats why he cant turn it off



*Spoiler*: __


----------



## LS20 (Apr 25, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> *izuna is not even mentioned in the manga.* he is irrelevant. his character was just to show how madara got his EMS and nothing more



What do you mean? He was mentioned several times...


----------



## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 25, 2012)

the only thing we see is some wrinkles and eyes thats it


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## Talis (Apr 25, 2012)

Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> the only thing we see is some wrinkles and eyes thats it


We saw both of his face sides...
Expect his mouth of course if you gonna use that as an evidence.


----------



## Talis (Apr 25, 2012)

Escargon said:


> [sp]Why would it be Izuna if hes made of Zetsu parts?
> 
> Hes either a character that:
> 
> ...


He clearly blackened that out for Tobito's ''scarface'' lol.


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## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 25, 2012)

where did we see his nose show me the page please


----------



## Sarun (Apr 25, 2012)

He could be, he might not be. Well, I am really interested in Tobi's identity.

It seems hyped.


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## Mateush (Apr 25, 2012)

Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> where did we see his nose show me the page please


----------



## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 25, 2012)

i dont see a nose sorry

Anyway we will see wont we i think maybe it wont be revealed anyway


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 25, 2012)

Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> the only thing we see is some wrinkles and eyes thats it



>_>



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> He's Uchiha Kagami, the father of Uchiha Shisui and Uzumaki Nagato.



Where in the world did you get the idea of Kagami being the father of Nagato and Shisui? 0_0



Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> i dont see a nose sorry



No shit. Tobi hasn't showed that much of his face yet lol.



Tobis6PathsOfpain said:


> Anyway we will see wont we i think maybe it wont be revealed anyway



Of course we will see it. Kishi has to reveal something that has been a mystery for so long.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 25, 2012)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I would rather Izuna be Tobi then Obito.



This .


----------



## Mateush (Apr 25, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> ....



Please explain my answer:


> Not sure if it was way before Kisame was born. He knows Nagato, it means he have lived longer than we think.


----------



## Burning_Neoxor (Apr 25, 2012)

F3ar0ner said:


> Think about it. Apart that Izuna's face looks much like Tobi's, a friend told me a theory that could be true. That friend told me he has a very reliable source.
> 
> Izuna and Madara found a way to rule the Narutoverse. Simply put, Izuna gave his eyes to Madara so Madara can have Eternal, and they planned that Madara fights with Hashirama so he can get Senju's DNA to acquire the Rinnegan.
> 
> ...



What think about Tobi being Izuna? It would be rather weak and disappointing if he is Izuna because Izuna is basically a nobody compared to Madara. It was Madara that was leader and pinnacle of the Uchiha clan; It is Madara that was Hashirama's rival; and it is Madara that Sasuke was compared to by Kurama. I would rather Tobi be an incomplete clone of Madara than for him to be Izuna. That said its entirely possible that Tobi is Izuna.


----------



## TJFuZioN (Apr 25, 2012)

Here's a question people don't ask themselves enough:

If Tobi's just an old Izuna fused with Zetsu goo, then why can't/doesn't he use any ninjutsu?? He's only ever used intangibility, warping and doujutsu. And even then, he's never shown any MS abilities!

Conclusion: Tobi isn't human (let alone an Uchiha). The eye powers are the most most haxx things around, which is why he uses them. Also, they belong to him, for Tobi is the Juubi... or he's Orochimaru .


----------



## sakuranonamida (Apr 25, 2012)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I would rather Izuna be Tobi then Obito.



^ this, though I don't really care who it is in the end as long as it's not Fugaku, Sasuke got enough mindfucks as it is .


----------



## jacamo (Apr 26, 2012)

Tobi is Uchiha Kagami, the father of Uchiha Obito

Kakashi will mistaken him for Obito when the mask comes off 

thats when the sob story flashbacks will begin


----------



## Golden Circle (Apr 26, 2012)

He's the anti-thesis of everything good. Like it's physical manifestation.

Perhaps the legend of the Kyuubi got mixed up with his somewhere along the line.


----------



## insane111 (Apr 26, 2012)

loool3 said:


> We saw both of his face sides...



Nope, we've only seen the upper right side. And I know which panel you're going to link, so don't bother. Viewing someones head from this angle does not equal seeing his face.


----------



## mathewmcmann (Apr 26, 2012)

Has anyone thought that maybe it is just an old soul that is inhabiting a body, like a reverse-jinchuuriki possibly the soul of the ten-tails inhabiting a body of the uchiha like Obito?


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Apr 26, 2012)

mathewmcmann said:


> Has anyone thought that maybe it is just an old soul that is inhabiting a body, like a reverse-jinchuuriki possibly the soul of the ten-tails inhabiting a body of the uchiha like Obito?





alienworkshopguy said:


> Agree. Been saying this for a long time. Its been proven that u can split the chakra and will of a tailed beast, which is what happened to jyuubi. Tobi is the will of the jyuubi in some body (here is where Tobito fans can be partially right too because it could be jyuubi will inside Obito's body).
> 
> I would think it was obvious by now that Tobi = Jyuubi's will/soul.



Been thinking this for a long time. Since right when tobi declared war.


----------



## Kiss (Apr 26, 2012)

He could be, but I want Tobi to be an unknown character.


----------



## NW (Apr 26, 2012)

Mateush said:


> Please explain my answer:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if it was way before Kisame was born. He knows Nagato, it means he have lived longer than we think.




Kisame was born after Nagato. Plus, Madara would not have lived long enough to be the one controlling Yagura and talk Kisame into joining Akatsuki. I seriously think people are really pushing how long Madara lived. When he was revived, he said, "So it finally happened". This would suggest that Madara had been dead for a long time, at least a decade. I don't get why people think that it was Madara controlling Yagura. Having long hair doesn't prove ANYTHING! People can grow their hair long, ya know. Just look at Hinata and Choji.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 26, 2012)

This is interesting:


If the translation is correct, then Tobi said "since you were closest to him". Why didn't he said "since you were closest to *me*" ?
I really see the possibility Kisame met the real Madara, not Tobi but he knows that Madara met him and Kisame knows who Tobi really is.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> *Kisame was born after Nagato.* Plus, Madara would not have lived long enough to be the one controlling Yagura and talk Kisame into joining Akatsuki. I seriously think people are really pushing how long Madara lived. When he was revived, he said, "So it finally happened". This would suggest that Madara had been dead for a long time, at least a decade. I don't get why people think that it was Madara controlling Yagura. Having long hair doesn't prove ANYTHING! People can grow their hair long, ya know. Just look at Hinata and Choji.



How do you know that?


----------



## NW (Apr 26, 2012)

Mateush said:


> How do you know that?





Because Kisame is around the same age as Kakashi and Nagato was born before the third shinobi world war. Plus, do you really think madara lived until THIS recently. Tobi controlled Yagura in recent years. I mean, either Madara has been dead for at least a decade or he's just VERY impatient.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Because Kisame is around the same age as Kakashi and Nagato was born before the third shinobi world war. Plus, do you really think madara lived until THIS recently. Tobi controlled Yagura in recent years. I mean, either Madara has been dead for at least a decade or he's just VERY impatient.



It's not many years difference and we really don't know how old Nagato was, or how old Jiraiya was during that time. It's not about Madara was impatient, but he could live longer than we think, maybe thanks to Hashirama cells if he already had it before he died.


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## Talis (Apr 26, 2012)

Mateush said:


> This is interesting:
> 
> 
> If the translation is correct, then Tobi said "since you were closest to him". Why didn't he said "since you were closest to *me*" ?
> ...


Jep this.
But people will say as usuall ''it was a translate error'' like they said with the 6th coffin.


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## NW (Apr 26, 2012)

How in the hell did that panel PROVE anything? Sure, it was some strong evidence towards the Obito theory, but not something yet to be regarded as definite fact. We can't be sure that we saw enough of his face to make that conclusion. It could have just been Kishi teasing us. I mean, i love the obito theory, but this isn't exactly the most solid proof.


----------



## Talis (Apr 26, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> How in the hell did that panel PROVE anything? Sure, it was some strong evidence towards the Obito theory, but not something yet to be regarded as definite fact. We can't be sure that we saw enough of his face to make that conclusion. It could have just been Kishi teasing us. I mean, i love the obito theory, but this isn't exactly the most solid proof.


It doesn't matter whether it points out to Tobito or not, it we clearly saw Tobi's other face side.


----------



## NW (Apr 26, 2012)

loool3 said:


> It doesn't matter whether it points out to Tobito or not, it we clearly saw Tobi's other face side.




We did not "clearly" see it. We only saw the very beginning of the left side of his face. Noooooot exactly solid evidence there.........


----------



## Kaname Kuran (Apr 27, 2012)

Really I'm fine with whoever it is as long as it's not Obito that'll be the dumbest thing I've ever read if it is.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 27, 2012)

Kaname Kuran said:


> Really I'm fine with whoever it is as long as it's not Obito that'll be the dumbest thing I've ever read if it is.



Don't worry. He has Madara's mind.


----------



## Escargon (Apr 27, 2012)

Why does he have a bandage around his hand? Any hints?


Fugaku?


----------



## insane111 (Apr 27, 2012)

Seeing 1/10th of of his cheek from an obscure angle in a tiny panel is not "clearly seeing his face" or "confirmation" of anything whatsoever. I don't see how that is so difficult to understand.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 27, 2012)

Mateush said:


> If the translation is correct, then Tobi said "since you were closest to him". Why didn't he said "since you were closest to *me*"?


I can't see the image, but judging by the url, I'm assuming it's from Chapter 404.
I only see HisshouBuraiKen as translating it as "him" rather than "me":


			
				HisshouBuraiKen said:
			
		

> I guess you're the last one...
> I'm sorry for deceiving you for so long, especially since you were closest to him.





			
				C-net said:
			
		

> Tobi: It's all finished with now, but... // I must apologise for deceiving you, who were closest to me, all this time.





			
				Tora-chan said:
			
		

> Madara: In the end you're the last one to know...
> Madara: I'm sorry, I've deceived you so far although you're actually the one closest to me.


----------



## Talis (Apr 27, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Why does he have a bandage around his hand? Any hints?
> 
> 
> Fugaku?


Chapter 404

Second panel, real Madara obviously...


----------



## Escargon (Apr 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Chapter 404
> 
> Second panel, real Madara obviously...



Didnt notice the hand did you?

Tobi is obviously Obito, i mean, he got the whole bandage wrapped where Obito got crushed behind a stone.

I think i just broke Tobis identity now.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 27, 2012)

Escargon said:


> [sp][/sp]
> 
> Why does he have a bandage around his hand? Any hints?


One problem, manga doesn't show his hands.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 27, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> One problem, manga doesn't show his hands.



At least he seemed hurt or did something with his body. I don't think it's just outfit, since it really looks like bandage.


----------



## Talis (Apr 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> We did not "clearly" see it. We only saw the very beginning of the left side of his face. Noooooot exactly solid evidence there.........


Whats your aim anyways?
We saw his nose, both eyes, except his mouth, he clearly has a face.


----------



## Talis (Apr 27, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Didnt notice the hand did you?
> 
> Tobi is obviously Obito, i mean, he got the whole bandage wrapped where Obito got crushed behind a stone.
> 
> I think i just broke Tobis identity now.


Sigh.....
Long haired guy is real Madara, short one is Tobi...


----------



## NW (Apr 27, 2012)

Kaname Kuran said:


> Really I'm fine with whoever it is as long as it's not Obito that'll be the dumbest thing I've ever read if it is.



Please explain why it is so dumb. It's one of the best IMO. try and give some reasons why you think it's dumb. Not reasons why it couldn't happen, just reasons why you personally don't like it.



Mateush said:


> Don't worry. He has Madara's mind.



Tobi acts nothing like Madara.



insane111 said:


> Seeing 1/10th of of his cheek from an obscure angle in a tiny panel is not "clearly seeing his face" or "confirmation" of anything whatsoever. I don't see how that is so difficult to understand.


 
Exactly! Why is that so hard for people to comprehend? People see the slightest thing and they go jumping and stating it as definite proof.



Escargon said:


> Didnt notice the hand did you?
> 
> Tobi is obviously Obito, i mean, he got the whole bandage wrapped where Obito got crushed behind a stone.
> 
> I think i just broke Tobis identity now.



Yeah, tobi being obito would explain the bandages.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> One problem, manga doesn't show his hands.



Yes, but he still has those bandages on his chest. It's also possible that Kishi told Studio Perriot to add that in.



loool3 said:


> Whats your aim anyways?
> We saw his nose, both eyes, except his mouth, he clearly has a face.



Of friggin course he has a face. that's the whole point, isn't it?



loool3 said:


> Sigh.....
> Long haired guy is real Madara, short one is Tobi...



Where the hell did you even come up with that? Hair is literally the ONLY thing you have to go on. Kisame recognized Tobi as being "Madara" meaning that Tobi had to have been the one manipulating Yagura. Plus, I'm sure I've said this before but, PEOPLE CAN GROW THEIR HAIR LONGER. Just look at Hinata and Choji. They're not saiyans, Ok? Their hair doesn't just stay the same forever.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Tobi acts nothing like Madara.



It's still the lowest odds to bet Tobi in some way is Madara. *If* he is not Madara, then it has to be Izuna or eg Elder Son. There are not many options, but Madara is the most likely one, unless Kishi actually is trying to mindfuck.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Sigh.....
> Long haired guy is real Madara, short one is Tobi...



*Sigh* They're the same person for goodness sake >_>.


----------



## NW (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh, and for those who are saying that Tobi's face looks just like Madara JUST because he has those creases under his eyes, other people, such as Onoki and Danzo have them too. The creases are due to old age. So, the creases under Tobi's eyes could just be from old age. Madara having them at a much younger age was most likely Kishi's way of tricking us even further into thinking Tobi was Madara. Don't believe me? Well, here:


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Madara having them at a much younger age was most likely Kishi's way of tricking us even further into thinking it was Madara.



Or Madara could've just naturally had them like how Itachi has those two lines on his face.


----------



## NW (Apr 27, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Or Madara could've just naturally had them like how Itachi has those two lines on his face.




That's what i meant. The reason madara had those creases naturally at a much younger age was likely because Kishi was trying to further convince us of the whole Tobi=Madara thing.


----------



## Talis (Apr 27, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> *Sigh* They're the same person for goodness sake >_>.


I love ridiculous people lol.
Anyways, every Tobidara believed Tobi being Madara with haircut they failed, now they don't believe the real Madara being the other maksed guy with his original hair style lol.


----------



## NW (Apr 27, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I love ridiculous people lol.
> Anyways, every Tobidara believed Tobi being Madara with haircut they failed, now they don't believe the real Madara being the other maksed guy with his original hair style lol.




Hair has absolutely nothing to do with this!!!! i just love how in my last response to you, I clearly offered up very valid points to refute what you said, yet you chose not to respond. Seriously, this hair shit is as ridiculous as people saying tobi is Obito JUST because of the hairstyle. In fact, it's even worse!


----------



## Escargon (Apr 28, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> One problem, manga doesn't show his hands.



What insanity is this?! Doesnt Kishi have any involvement in this?

Yeah i know they coloured the Rinnegan wrong but wrapping the left hand with bandages without even knowing theres bandage there is way over the top. Dont tell me they could do this? I hope atleast they called Kishi and asked what they should have done with the other hand. 

I hope Kishi did tell them to put bandage there, then Tobi propably got a half new body to replace his own, and Zetsu propably gave him information about Madara or something. 

Obito inc. (Read chapter 510, Kishi shadowed Tobis right side, it might be Obito with Madaras body replacing the crushed body. And Zetsu goo giving him Hashirama DNA or something?)



loool3 said:


> Sigh.....
> Long haired guy is real Madara, short one is Tobi...



Hmmm i dont think so.

That guy in the mask wanted to find out who the man who met Kisame was, and Kisame bit off his tongue. Why would Kisame bit it off if the man was Madara Uchiha? It doesnt make sense.

And:

Kisame met Madara.

Tobi weared his mask VS the fourth.

Tobi with Madara hair met Itachi.

Kinda disturbing if Madara weared Tobis mask:S

And tbh, if Obito let his hair grow, it would look like Madaras.


----------



## Scizor (Apr 28, 2012)

Escargon said:


> And tbh, if Obito let his hair grow, it would look like Madaras.



This^ in particular is pushing it; it's a baseless assumption.


----------



## NW (Apr 28, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I hope Kishi did tell them to put bandage there, then Tobi propably got a half new body to replace his own, and Zetsu propably gave him information about Madara or something.
> 
> Obito inc. (Read chapter 510, Kishi shadowed Tobis right side, it might be Obito with Madaras body replacing the crushed body. And Zetsu goo giving him Hashirama DNA or something?)



if Tobi is Obito, why would the other half of his body be Madara? That kind of operation would kill him! He most likely has completely his own body, but Zetsu used some zetsu goo yo repair his arm. His arm was probably the only thing that was actually crushed. His head was not crushed under the boulder. So, it could still completely be Obito.


----------



## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Hair has absolutely nothing to do with this!!!! i just love how in my last response to you, I clearly offered up very valid points to refute what you said, yet you chose not to respond. Seriously, this hair shit is as ridiculous as people saying tobi is Obito JUST because of the hairstyle. In fact, it's even worse!


Theres tons of enough facts which supports the Tobito the most important one of them is the Kakashis years which got delayed like thrice, and the most important of them all is that Kakashi is fighting against him now.
Anyways i got more then eough proofs to support it but i already got enough of repeating things 1000x.
Hairstyle doesn't matter?
He has the same hairstyle as Obito so what do you expect after his revealment?
His hair suddenly changing in pink long Sakura hairs?
And don't be stupid theres no need in messing up with a masked mans appereance in every chapter.
We knew the real Madara did live freaking long, manga says so far that he probably lived until Nagato was a little child.
But who knows? What if Madara tried to find Nagato back but he couldn't?
His comment about Nagato being grown still would make sense, on top of that the guy had a freaking bandage on his chest just the way Madara died, and Kisame knew the real Madara he couldn't have been tricked by Tobi.
And even if it was Tobi, then Kishi surely would have reveal some more about the flashbacks if Tobi was the one to controle Yagura, but to bad Yagura dissapeared already without having some backstories on each other.
Everything will become clear as soon as edo Madara goes to Itachi they will recognize each other.

And mark this in your history book, right after that the Tobidara supporters will support the Tobi is a Madara clone theory because Kisame ''recognized'' Tobi as Madara but they will fail again after the mask falls down lol.


----------



## Crystaltiger (Apr 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres tons of enough facts which supports the Tobito the most important one of them is the Kakashis years which got delayed like thrice, and the most important of them all is that Kakashi is fighting against him now.
> Anyways i got more then eough proofs to support it but i already got enough of repeating things 1000x.
> Hairstyle doesn't matter?
> He has the same hairstyle as Obito so what do you expect after his revealment?
> ...



I don't disagree with you, but I wouldn't call it proofs. That are hints.
There is no proof for any theory. But a bunch of hints for a lot, like Obito AND THE ELDER SON ;DD


----------



## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> I don't disagree with you, but I wouldn't call it proofs. That are hints.
> There is no proof for any theory. But a bunch of hints for a lot, like Obito AND THE ELDER SON ;DD


Whatever you would call it.


----------



## Escargon (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> if Tobi is Obito, why would the other half of his body be Madara? That kind of operation would kill him! He most likely has completely his own body, but Zetsu used some zetsu goo yo repair his arm. His arm was probably the only thing that was actually crushed. His head was not crushed under the boulder. So, it could still completely be Obito.



I might be wrong here but doesnt Tobi change his flesh? When he wants to remove it he turn it into Zetsu goo (proof vs the fourth, hes not really made of it, he TURNED his flesh into Zetsu) and when he wants to absorb attacks he turns his body into stone/metal or something (proof 1: he stopped a sword with his arm proof 2: he tried to absorb the fourths attack but failed a bit when he took the attack on his back, otherwise he would break in half proof 3: he turned his neck into it otherwise he would break his neck after Narutos headbutt attack).

He can grow his own body again, but it will be white first buy slowly turn into normal. 

Is it space time jutsu he uses when someone goes thru his body or do he turn his flesh into a GHOST? Proof: when he had chains on a beast even after killer bee tried to crush him. Can you do it with another jutsu?
I can be wrong on this one. Not really into Naruto much.

This guy is kinda special. And i would say 75% of his body is Madaras. Well idk o guess he wants Sasukes body cause Madarad turning old, thats why he calls himself immortal but idk. The Madara face weve seen is not his true identity, infact, we havent seen Tobi yet. Its the shadowed area in chapter 510 who is Tobi i guess. 

Call me crazy but is there a reason Kishi gave Tobi the same hairstyle as Obito? Is there a reason Tobi is shown to be the old Madara? Kabuto took Tobis dna to ress Madara, im 99% sure of it.

But i can be wrong. Tobi is a fked up character.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I love ridiculous people lol.
> Anyways, every Tobidara believed Tobi being Madara with haircut they failed, now they don't believe the real Madara being the other maksed guy with his original hair style lol.



You're the one who's being ridiculous by trying to prove your Obito theory with hairstyles. Pathetic.



loool3 said:


> Theres tons of enough facts which supports the Tobito the most important one of them is the Kakashis years which got delayed like thrice, and the most important of them all is that Kakashi is fighting against him now.
> Anyways i got more then eough proofs to support it but i already got enough of repeating things 1000x.
> Hairstyle doesn't matter?
> He has the same hairstyle as Obito so what do you expect after his revealment?
> ...



Let me tell you this. All you do to prove your theory is talk about the physical things. That's all you rely on. Physical things don't matter. The facts are the things that matter.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> You're the one who's being ridiculous by trying to prove your Obito theory with hairstyles. Pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me tell you this. All you do to prove your theory is talk about the physical things. That's all you rely on. Physical things don't matter. The facts are the things that matter.


Your just hoping that Tobi is Sakura with some haircut and dyed hairs of course thats possible, Kishi wants to troll us so hard.


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## TJFuZioN (Apr 28, 2012)

I've already mentioned this in another thread but, one glaring clue that most people seem to overlook is Tobi's lack of Ninjutsu feats. He either can't or won't use it. All he's ever shown us is intangibility, space-time jutsus and doujutsu. If he was just a Madara clone, or Izuna, or Fugaku(!), or ANYBODY, then why hasn't he at least shown us a Katon, or something??? He doesn't even have MS(which should rule out Izuna)

This is what I think lends the most credit to Tobi=Juubi's Will. He can't use Ninjutsu because he isn't human. I also believe he also relies on eye power not only because it's easily the most haxx ability in the Narutoverse, but also because they originally belong to him. There's obviously some connection between the Juubi and the doujutsu, and I don't think it's that much of a stretch to surmise that the Juubi may be the father of all doujutsu somehow, which would explain why he's so good with them without being an Uchiha. It might even explain his control over the bijuu. And possibly the chains... Just something to think about.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I might be wrong here but doesnt Tobi change his flesh? When he wants to remove it he turn it into Zetsu goo (proof vs the fourth, hes not really made of it, he TURNED his flesh into Zetsu) and when he wants to absorb attacks he turns his body into stone/metal or something (proof 1: he stopped a sword with his arm proof 2: he tried to absorb the fourths attack but failed a bit when he took the attack on his back, otherwise he would break in half proof 3: he turned his neck into it otherwise he would break his neck after Narutos headbutt attack).
> 
> He can grow his own body again, but it will be white first buy slowly turn into normal.
> 
> ...


Tobi sure looks as a ghost if i watch him in the anime when he fights against Minato.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> I've already mentioned this in another thread but, one glaring clue that most people seem to overlook is Tobi's lack of Ninjutsu feats. He either can't or won't use it. All he's ever shown us is intangibility, space-time jutsus and doujutsu. If he was just a Madara clone, or Izuna, or Fugaku(!), or ANYBODY, then why hasn't he at least shown us a Katon, or something??? He doesn't even have MS(which should rule out Izuna)
> 
> This is what I think lends the most credit to Tobi=Juubi's Will. He can't use Ninjutsu because he isn't human. I also believe he also relies on eye power not only because it's easily the most haxx ability in the Narutoverse, but also because they originally belong to him. There's obviously some connection between the Juubi and the doujutsu, and I don't think it's that much of a stretch to surmise that the Juubi may be the father of all doujutsu somehow, which would explain why he's so good with them without being an Uchiha. It might even explain his control over the bijuu. And possibly the chains... Just something to think about.


Tobi is to calm to be a wild monster.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 28, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> I've already mentioned this in another thread but, one glaring clue that most people seem to overlook is Tobi's lack of Ninjutsu feats. He either can't or won't use it. All he's ever shown us is intangibility, space-time jutsus and doujutsu. If he was just a Madara clone, or Izuna, or Fugaku(!), or ANYBODY, then why hasn't he at least shown us a Katon, or something??? He doesn't even have MS(which should rule out Izuna)
> 
> This is what I think lends the most credit to Tobi=Juubi's Will. He can't use Ninjutsu because he isn't human. I also believe he also relies on eye power not only because it's easily the most haxx ability in the Narutoverse, but also because they originally belong to him. There's obviously some connection between the Juubi and the doujutsu, and I don't think it's that much of a stretch to surmise that the Juubi may be the father of all doujutsu somehow, which would explain why he's so good with them without being an Uchiha. It might even explain his control over the bijuu. And possibly the chains... Just something to think about.



Good point. The Juubi being the father of all Doujutsu does seem plausible. And all your other points seem plausible as well.


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## TJFuZioN (Apr 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Good point. The Juubi being the father of all Doujutsu does seem plausible. And all your other points seem plausible as well.



Thanks. There could obviously be another explanation for his lack of Ninjutsu, but I just hope it's something people will consider more often when thinking about Tobi's identity.


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## NW (Apr 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Theres tons of enough facts which supports the Tobito the most important one of them is the Kakashis years which got delayed like thrice, and the most important of them all is that Kakashi is fighting against him now.
> Anyways i got more then eough proofs to support it but i already got enough of repeating things 1000x.
> Hairstyle doesn't matter?
> He has the same hairstyle as Obito so what do you expect after his revealment?
> ...



What are you talking about? I never said the Obito theory didn't have any proof. In fact, it's one of my favorite theories. I just said that you can't base a theory on hairstyle. Because by that logic, Hinata and Choji aren't Hinata and Choji because they have different hair styles than they did before. And for the record, Obito's hair does NOT, I repeat, NOT match Tobi's. It's similar, but not the same. Another thing, those bandages on "Madara" could actually be from having a HUGE ASS BOULDER fall on him. *cough*Obito*cough*. Also, it's not like Madara to control someone like that from the shadows. It seems more like Tobi.



TJFuZioN said:


> I've already mentioned this in another thread but, one glaring clue that most people seem to overlook is Tobi's lack of Ninjutsu feats. He either can't or won't use it. All he's ever shown us is intangibility, space-time jutsus and doujutsu. If he was just a Madara clone, or Izuna, or Fugaku(!), or ANYBODY, then why hasn't he at least shown us a Katon, or something??? He doesn't even have MS(which should rule out Izuna)
> 
> This is what I think lends the most credit to Tobi=Juubi's Will. He can't use Ninjutsu because he isn't human. I also believe he also relies on eye power not only because it's easily the most haxx ability in the Narutoverse, but also because they originally belong to him. There's obviously some connection between the Juubi and the doujutsu, and I don't think it's that much of a stretch to surmise that the Juubi may be the father of all doujutsu somehow, which would explain why he's so good with them without being an Uchiha. It might even explain his control over the bijuu. And possibly the chains... Just something to think about.



Definately a huge possibility, but, the space-time he uses is a space-time ninjutsu, correct? So, he at least has ONE ninjutsu. Also, Izuna wouldn't still have MS since Madara took his eyes. We also don't know if Tobi has MS or not. He may very well have it and just doesn't use it often cuz he doesn't want to go blind.




loool3 said:


> Tobi is to calm to be a wild monster.



We know absolutely nothing of the Juubi's personality.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> What are you talking about? I never said the Obito theory didn't have any proof. In fact, it's one of my favorite theories. I just said that you can't base a theory on hairstyle. Because by that logic, Hinata and Choji aren't Hinata and Choji because they have different hair styles than they did before. And for the record, Obito's hair does NOT, I repeat, NOT match Tobi's. It's similar, but not the same. Another thing, those bandages on "Madara" could actually be from having a HUGE ASS BOULDER fall on him. *cough*Obito*cough*. Also, it's not like Madara to control someone like that from the shadows. It seems more like Tobi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hinatha and Choji had at least panels showing their haircuts, you can't change a masked mans appearence without clearly showing it.


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## Menacing Eyes (Apr 28, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> why hasn't he at least shown us a Katon, or something???



Tobi isn't able to use Katon because he wears that mask. When Fugaku was explaining Katon to Sasuke, he said that it involves drawing Chakra from one's mouth, storing it in the chest, and the blowing it out. 


*Spoiler*: __ 








Tobi can't do this because the mask covers his mouth.


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## NW (Apr 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Hinatha and Choji had at least panels showing their haircuts, you can't change a masked mans appearence without clearly showing it.



What do you mean? Of course you can! What do you mean, "panels showing their haircuts"? All that happened was Naruto returned to Konoha and saw them with much longer hair. It's the same deal with Tobi, we see that his hair grows longer after long periods of time. No one made a big deal about Hinata and Choji having longer hair, so why the big fuss over Tobi having longer hair? Even Sakura's hair was shown in a flashback to have grown more when she was training with Tsunade in between parts 1 and 2, but then she cut it again.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Hinatha and Choji had at least panels showing their haircuts, you can't change a masked mans appearence without clearly showing it.



Just stop focusing on his hair, that's really absolutely NO point.
Ninja's can change their hair too and Obito died (or did not, however) over a decade ago (in fact he was "seen" the last time 17 years ago).
You cannot tell me that a haircut proofs anything after 17 years, so just don't argue about his hair anymore.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Just stop focusing on his hair, that's really absolutely NO point.
> Ninja's can change their hair too and Obito died (or did not, however) over a decade ago (in fact he was "seen" the last time 17 years ago).
> You cannot tell me that a haircut proofs anything after 17 years, so just don't argue about his hair anymore.


I am not argueing about his hair.
I am just saying that it's not obvious changing a masked mans appearence the whole time.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> What do you mean? Of course you can! What do you mean, "panels showing their haircuts"? All that happened was Naruto returned to Konoha and saw them with much longer hair. It's the same deal with Tobi, we see that his hair grows longer after long periods of time. No one made a big deal about Hinata and Choji having longer hair, so why the big fuss over Tobi having longer hair? Even Sakura's hair was shown in a flashback to have grown more when she was training with Tsunade in between parts 1 and 2, but then she cut it again.


Nope, we just saw a maskless guy with Madara's hairs claiming to be Madara while Kisame knowing the real guy agreeing with it.
Note that the guy was even maskless while Tobi is a person with a mask claiming to be Madara.


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## TJFuZioN (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Definately a huge possibility, but, the space-time he uses is a space-time ninjutsu, correct? So, he at least has ONE ninjutsu. Also, Izuna wouldn't still have MS since Madara took his eyes. We also don't know if Tobi has MS or not. He may very well have it and just doesn't use it often cuz he doesn't want to go blind.



Some good points, although I don't know if I'd call Tobi's Space-Time "jutsus" ninjutsu(I only use the word jutsu because because it's relatable term to use when desbribing it). It doesn't seem like something learnable like Minato's Hiraishin(?), especially with all that weird pocket-dimension (COUGHtheinsideofthemoonCOUGH) stuff going on. It seems more comprable to a kekkei genkai than anything else, which has nothing to do with "ninja techniques". I could be wrong, of course, and this might've already been addressed.

Also, I guess Izuna, or some other MS weilder, is technically still possibility, it doesn't really seem likely and doesn't account for... his uniqueness. Meh.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Some good points, although I don't know if I'd call Tobi's Space-Time "jutsus" ninjutsu(I only use the word jutsu because because it's relatable term to use when desbribing it). It doesn't seem like something learnable like Minato's Hiraishin(?), especially with all that weird pocket-dimension (COUGHtheinsideofthemoonCOUGH) stuff going on. It seems more comprable to a kekkei genkai than anything else, which has nothing to do with "ninja techniques". I could be wrong, of course, and this might've already been addressed.
> 
> Also, I guess Izuna, or some other MS weilder, is technically still possibility, it doesn't really seem likely and doesn't account for... his uniqueness. Meh.


Pretty much this, it's hard to call an eye technique a real jutsu, Tobi even needed some extra strenght against Minato so what did he use?
Ninjutsu? No just some dumb weapons because he literally doesn't have anything else besides the S/T.


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## NW (Apr 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Nope, we just saw a maskless guy with Madara's hairs claiming to be Madara while Kisame knowing the real guy agreeing with it.
> Note that the guy was even maskless while Tobi is a person with a mask claiming to be Madara.



Who cares if he wasn't wearing a mask? He had no need for one at the time. No one knew that he was there manipulating Yagura. Plus, he wanted to show his face to Kisame. Once Tobi's identity is revealed, and his flashback begins, that is likely when it we'll be shown that he grew his hair out and got haircuts. Also, you're also saying that the person who helped Itachi with the Massacre was Madara as well, right? Well, that makes no sense either. Face it, man. It just doesn't add up.
Anyways, how bout we just stop arguing about this, okay? Cuz, frankly, I'm fed up, and hair is kind of a boring thing to debate about, lol.


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## Starstalker (Apr 28, 2012)

Whoever he is, I don't want another enemy who is pissed off at the world because he was hurt or something in his childhood.

Please Kishi, just make him evil because...well, for the lolz.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Who cares if he wasn't wearing a mask? He had no need for one at the time. No one knew that he was there manipulating Yagura. Plus, he wanted to show his face to Kisame. Once Tobi's identity is revealed, and his flashback begins, that is likely when it we'll be shown that he grew his hair out and got haircuts. Also, you're also saying that the person who helped Itachi with the Massacre was Madara as well, right? Well, that makes no sense either. Face it, man. It just doesn't add up.
> Anyways, how bout we just stop arguing about this, okay? Cuz, frankly, I'm fed up, and hair is kind of a boring thing to debate about, lol.


You will see as soon as Madara goes to Itachi, Kishi didn't leave the 25 Madara clones left behind the Kages just for the lolz.


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## NW (Apr 28, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You will see as soon as Madara goes to Itachi, Kishi didn't leave the 25 Madara clones left behind the Kages just for the lolz.



(Finally, a non-hair based argument) Okay, well I guess you've got a point there. Makes ya think that Madara made those clones to distract the Kages while he goes to see Itachi. But, I don't see why Madara would want to randomly go see Itachi for lolz. I doubt he even knows itachi died. Or that itachi was edo tensei ressurected.


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## Talis (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> (Finally, a non-hair based argument) Okay, well I guess you've got a point there. Makes ya think that Madara made those clones to distract the Kages while he goes to see Itachi. But, I don't see why Madara would want to randomly go see Itachi for lolz. I doubt he even knows itachi died. Or that itachi was edo tensei ressurected.


Kabuto will make him to go there.
Or either Muu, someone made a theory a while ago which made pretty much sense, ''Muu'' is even running away still if he truly goes to Kabuto then he simply can summon Madara next to him.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 28, 2012)

I just hope Kabuto backstory ends in the near future, I don't like it xD
But Tobi being Madara is still the least convincing theory imo.
It's boring in some way, because it would mean, that we (more or less) knew from the beginning that it was Madara, so there would be thousands of theories just to end where it all started. I just won't believe that.


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## NW (Apr 28, 2012)

I'm really starting to think that Tobi is the Elder son of Rikudo. I've read some convincing theories and I'm just about convinced. I also think it could be the Younger Son, Setsuna Uchiha, or Obito Uchiha.


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## AoMythology (Apr 28, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Some good points, although I don't know if I'd call Tobi's Space-Time "jutsus" ninjutsu(I only use the word jutsu because because it's relatable term to use when desbribing it). It doesn't seem like something learnable like Minato's Hiraishin(?), especially with all that weird pocket-dimension (COUGHtheinsideofthemoonCOUGH) stuff going on. It seems more comprable to a kekkei genkai than anything else, which has nothing to do with "ninja techniques". I could be wrong, of course, and this might've already been addressed.
> 
> Also, I guess Izuna, or some other MS weilder, is technically still possibility, it doesn't really seem likely and doesn't account for... his uniqueness. Meh.



Hasn't Tobi also used low-level Doton?


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## TJFuZioN (Apr 28, 2012)

AoMythology said:


> Hasn't Tobi also used low-level Doton?



Hmmm...  I always figured that was him using his intangibility to move through the earth. Do the panels specifically quote a doton jutsu?


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## insane111 (Apr 28, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Hmmm...  I always figured that was him using his intangibility to move through the earth. Do the panels specifically quote a doton jutsu?



I don't think so, but I think there was a point where you see him pop out of the ground, earth and all, leaving a hole. Plus, he wouldn't be able to carry around and plant Deidara's bombs down there while intangible.


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## NW (Apr 28, 2012)

Here's my percentages for Tobi chances:

Obito: 40%
Kagami: 30%
Izuna: 10%
Older Son: 10%
Younger Son: 5%
Izuna: 5%


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## Shaz (Apr 28, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Here's my percentages for Tobi chances:
> 
> Obito: 40%
> Kagami: 30%
> ...





Your percentages are so messed up.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 29, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Tobi isn't able to use Katon because he wears that mask. When Fugaku was explaining Katon to Sasuke, he said that it involves drawing Chakra from one's mouth, storing it in the chest, and the blowing it out.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



But in Naruto Shippuden ultimate ninja impact, you're able to use Katon when you're using Tobi as a character. Weird... Maybe Tobi can blow the fire through his mask since he can make himself intangible.


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## alienworkshopguy (Apr 29, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Here's my percentages for Tobi chances:
> 
> Obito: 40%
> Kagami: 30%
> ...



The "body" i agree could be anyone of these people but the "mind" or "soul" is 100pct jyuubi.


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 29, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I'm really starting to think that Tobi is the Elder son of Rikudo. I've read some convincing theories and I'm just about convinced. I also think it could be the Younger Son, Setsuna Uchiha, or Obito Uchiha.



Yes brother that's it. Stay focused.


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## son_michael (Apr 29, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Here's my percentages for Tobi chances:
> 
> Obito: 40%
> Kagami: 30%
> ...




definitely wouldn't be younger son and if its the older son then the younger son would also be alive so that rules out the both of them because obviously were not gonna have the younger son suddenly appear and if he doesn't it would be stupid.


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## TJFuZioN (Apr 29, 2012)

insane111 said:


> I don't think so, but I think there was a point where you see him pop out of the ground, earth and all, leaving a hole. Plus, he wouldn't be able to carry around and plant Deidara's bombs down there while intangible.



Well, you could make the arguement that his clothes staying on is proof that he can make any items he touches intangible. Therefore he could have taken Deidara's bombs with him in that way, although I don't suppose that explains the hole. Isn't there an example of him making another character intangible?(this question isn't rhetorical)


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## insane111 (Apr 29, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Isn't there an example of him making another character intangible?(this question isn't rhetorical)



Don't think so, at least I don't remember anything like that. 





TobiUchiha111 said:


> Older Son: 45%
> Madara clone: 45%
> Kagami: 5%
> Someone else: 5%
> ...



Fixed .

All of the people at 0% have at least 1 major plot hole that prevents them from being Tobi, not going to bother listing all of those for the 20th time though.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 29, 2012)

alienworkshopguy said:


> The "body" i agree could be anyone of these people but the "mind" or "soul" is 100pct jyuubi.



Not really. It's a possibility, but not 100%.



son_michael said:


> definitely wouldn't be younger son and if its the older son then the younger son would also be alive so that rules out the both of them because obviously were not gonna have the younger son suddenly appear and if he doesn't it would be stupid.



What makes you sure it's the younger son?
If it's the older son, the younger could still be death, and there would be less plotholes.




insane111 said:


> Fixed .
> 
> All of the people at 0% have at least 1 major plot hole that prevents them from being Tobi, not going to bother listing all of those for the 20th time though.



LOL awesome fix xD


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## jNdee~ (Apr 29, 2012)

Tobirama senju= tobi


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## Eskilllicous (Apr 29, 2012)

How does the Kagami theory look and what are the arguments? I searched a little but couldn't find it.


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## Talis (Apr 29, 2012)

Eskilllicous said:


> How does the Kagami theory look and what are the arguments? I searched a little but couldn't find it.


There are literally no arguments for it.


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## Talis (Apr 29, 2012)

jNdee said:


> Tobirama senju= tobi


Tobirama not knowing ET would be really stupid.


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## atduncan (Apr 29, 2012)

*Prediction - Tobi Identity (new)*

Ok, here is my theory. We know Tsukyomi can control space and time. In reality, Naruto is still on his way to rescue Gaara. Everyone we have seen since that point in the manga has simply been Itachi's genjutsu. Tobi actually does not exist!!!!!!


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## Golden Circle (Apr 29, 2012)

Wait... wut? 

My mind can't cope with all the fail that would entail.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 29, 2012)

....
+reps.


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## DUNGEON (Apr 29, 2012)

if its true then it wont naruto who is fooled.*IT WILL BE US*.


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## jNdee~ (Apr 29, 2012)

Tobirama Senju


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## Kumanri (Apr 29, 2012)

....... Next!


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## NW (Apr 29, 2012)

insane111 said:


> Fixed .
> 
> All of the people at 0% have at least 1 major plot hole that prevents them from being Tobi, not going to bother listing all of those for the 20th time though.



One major plothole that could easily be filled in by Kishi. We can't be expected to know EXACTLY what Kishi is planning. it will all make sense when that damn mask comes off



Eskilllicous said:


> How does the Kagami theory look and what are the arguments? I searched a little but couldn't find it.


 I don't feel like re-writing them so I'll just copy and paste the reasons I posted a couple pages ago:

    "Okay, The Uchiha Kagami theory is one of the (in my opinon) best Tobi theories. Alot of people doubt it because he only appeared in one chapter. So i'm gonna give a truckload of evidence to support it.

-Kagami's name means mirror. This could explain how he was "mirroring" Madara.

-Kagami and Tobi have the same eye shape 

-In Danzo's flashback, for the last character on the team, he could have introduced ANYONE from ANY clan as the last one from the team. instead, he chose to put an UCHIHA, one which is one of the most important clans in this manga.

-Kagami's alias "Tobi" could have been derived from his sensei, TOBIrama

-Tobirama was also said to use space-time ninjutsu, Kagami could have copied it from him with his sharingan

-During Sasuke's fight with Danzo, Tobi seemed to know everything Danzo did right off the bat, almost as if he knew him PERSONALLY. This would make sense if they were on the same team.

-During Tobi's attack on Konoha with Kurama, the only two members of Danzo's team that were missing were Danzo himself and Kagami. Danzo was probably missing due to secrecy, but where was Kagami?
LINK: Here's

-During Minato's fight with Tobi, Minato said that Tobi's space-time skills surpassed even his and the SECOND's. Students surpassing their mentors seems to be a running theme in this manga. So it would make sense that Kagami surpassed his. 
LINK: Here's

-I also find it suspicious that Danzo went into a flashback with Kagami in it while making direct eye contact with Tobi.
LINK: Here's

-One more thing: During Danzo's flashback in chapter 481, right before Tobirama announces Sarutobi Hokage, You can see Kagami's face looking kinda angry, plus his eyes are shaded out. A little jealous, are we, Kagami? 
LINK: Link removed (look in the top left panel on the very left.)

In conclusion, this seems like a very plausible theory, and would fill in alot of the gaps in the story."





loool3 said:


> There are literally no arguments for it.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 29, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> In conclusion, this seems like a very plausible theory, and would fill in alot of the gaps in the story."



Yes it's a quite plausible theory, but if he takes off his mask and is Kagami, noone will care, because all people who know Kagami are dead right now. (Kakashi and co. might have known him aswell when they were "kids", but I doubt that Kakashi or anyone has any "deep" relations to Kagami.)


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## son_michael (Apr 29, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> What makes you sure it's the younger son?
> If it's the older son, the younger could still be death, and there would be less plotholes.



If the older son is still alive then he's far beyond old age, we are talking zombie shit here and the older son is known for his eye power, if anything the younger son who is known for his body is much more likely to be alive. However, the idea of either 1 of them being alive is REALLY far fetched, everything about the oldest and youngest sons should have been passed down their respective bloodlines, they should not have anything to do with the story. So for one of them to appear, both of them would appear and that would be ridiculous, therefore I rule the both of them out as possibilities for tobi.


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## NW (Apr 29, 2012)

Alright, now I'm gonna give some less stupid Tobi percentages.

Obito: 25%    Reason: Nice plot twist in my opinion and seems like Kishi's writing style.

Izuna: 15%   Reason: Fits with Kishi's whole 'brother' theme, but his name wasn't mentioned in the manga, leading me to believe that he is somewhat unimportant to the plot.

Older Son Of Rikudo: 32%   Reason: Tobi has the exact same ideals as the Older Son and   knows a great deal of knowledge about the past. Meaning he would have had to be around for a long time.

Younger Son: 10%    Reason: The Younger Son could have seen how the Curse of Hatred kept on continuing in future generations, so he lost hope in the world. Plus, he looks more like Tobi than the Older Son does.

Kagami Uchiha: 17%    Reason: Lots of evidence supporting him being Tobi.

Setsuna Uchiha: 1%    Reason: Very unlikely, although there are similar physical aspects between him and Tobi, and he would have a decent motive. But, he just seems like too random and unknown of a character to be the main villain.

Fugaku Uchiha: 0%     Reason: Too young. If he were still alive, he'd be around 50. Not old enough to have wrinkles like Tobi does. he also is taller and weighs more than Tobi.

Shisui Uchiha: 0%    Reason: Tobi fought Minato while Shisui still had his original limbs and eyes perfectly intact. That pretty much rules him out.

Madara Uchiha: 0%    Reason: He was Edo Tensei resurrected. To be Edo Tensei resurrected, your soul need to reside in the pure world, meaning it's not among the living. So that rules out Madara.

Madara Clone: 0%    Reason: Anti-climactic and dumb. And, if he looked just like Madara, why wear a mask? If Kishi wanted Tobi to be Madara in some way, shape, or form, he would have just made Tobi the real Madara, but he didn't.


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## Shaz (Apr 29, 2012)

It cannot be Obito, that is insane, look at how his character was like before he 'died', he hasn't got enough motive for it, and how did he form relations with Madara, how did he get the intellegect to gain a Rinnegan. It might be Obito's body may be a vessel for Tobi, but not Obito himself. It has to be someone more wise, more older, who would be able to form such a plot, have ties to such a legendary ninja and have such intellect. If it was Obito, he would be around Kakashi's age, and I can't see anyone at Kakashi's age to be able to take on such a villainous, long-term plot.

Peoples theory is that because his left eye got crushed blahblah, well that might not be it, look at the above, he couldn't of mastered such a plan at his intellect and age, he has no real motives, it might be that Obito's body is a vessel though I am still unsure about that or it could just be a theory which Kishimoto made so obvious just to throw us off, but it has to be the Elder son, or Izuna.


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## NW (Apr 29, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> It cannot be Obito, that is insane, look at how his character was like before he 'died', he hasn't got enough motive for it, and how did he form relations with Madara, how did he get the intellegect to gain a Rinnegan. It might be Obito's body may be a vessel for Tobi, but not Obito himself. It has to be someone more wise, more older, who would be able to form such a plot, have ties to such a legendary ninja and have such intellect. If it was Obito, he would be around Kakashi's age, and I can't see anyone at Kakashi's age to be able to take on such a villainous, long-term plot.
> 
> Peoples theory is that because his left eye got crushed blahblah, well that might not be it, look at the above, he couldn't of mastered such a plan at his intellect and age, he has no real motives, it might be that Obito's body is a vessel though I am still unsure about that or it could just be a theory which Kishimoto made so obvious just to throw us off, but it has to be the Elder son, or Izuna.




You've got a point. As for Obito's motive, I tend to think that it hasn't been revealed yet because that would ruin the shock when his mask comes off. I don't see why else Kishi would hold off on telling us what happened to Rin and how kakashi got his mangekyo. As for his immense knowledge, well, that's one of the reasons that I'm starting to doubt it's Obito. Although Zetsu could record things. You never know, he could have recorded Madara's battle against Hashirama and other such things, and then showed it to Obito. It's a long shot, I know. I also don't think that it's Obito's body with someone else's soul in it. The reason is because what's the point of it being Obito's body if it's not actually Obito's soul in it, too? It would be more fun if it was completely Obito, body and soul. I also agree with Tobi being the Older Son or Izuna.


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## insane111 (Apr 29, 2012)

Eskilllicous said:


> How does the Kagami theory look and what are the arguments? I searched a little but couldn't find it.



The problem is there is absolutely nothing known about Kagami, he showed up in like 1 panel or something and he was irrelevant. The Kagami theory is possible since there's nothing to contradict it, but he isn't any better than it being a completely unknown character.


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## Gabe (Apr 29, 2012)

i think the percentage of who tobi is are 

madara/shodai clone 45%
RS Older son 30%
Juubis Will 20%
Izuna 5%


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## NW (Apr 29, 2012)

insane111 said:


> The problem is there is absolutely nothing known about Kagami, he showed up in like 1 panel or something and he was irrelevant. The Kagami theory is possible since there's nothing to contradict it, but he isn't any better than it being a completely unknown character.




Well, Kagami DOES actually have more significance than a new character because he was on the same team as Danzo, Hiruzen, Kotane(or whatever his name is), and Koharu. And that Akimichi guy.


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## son_michael (Apr 29, 2012)

@TobiUchiha111

If you believe in Tobi being obito then stand by it, stop floundering like a fish.....you started in this thread 100% behind obito and now your apologizing for giving him 40% of your vote?

man up son



As for me, I acknowledge that Tobi could be an unknown and it would suck. I connect tobi to Obito mostly because of kakashi's sharingan power and tobi's power looking like mirror images of each other and the fact that it would be an awesome plot twist and dramatic.

and again, the elder son makes no sense. If he has lived so long then we need to introduce an immortality jutsu and have the younger brother involved as well since his body is a much more feasible explanation as to why he could live and not look 500 years old or however old they actually are. Plus, they have no connection with ANY characters.


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## NW (Apr 29, 2012)

son_michael said:


> @TobiUchiha111
> 
> If you believe in Tobi being obito then stand by it, stop floundering like a fish.....you started in this thread 100% behind obito and now your apologizing for giving him 40% of your vote?
> 
> ...




You're misunderstanding things. I'm definitely behind the Obito theory. but, I only gave him around 40% of my vote because i'm going by logic and plausibility. I've never been open to just one Tobi theory. I've always been open to different identities for him because I'm very interested in this whole "Tobi" mystery. As I'm sure everyone else is. that's why i realize some of the faults and strengths in different theories. I am merely rationalizing and finding different angles to explore these different theories from. I made new Tobi percentages because I felt that i had kind of exaggerated my previous ones.

Also, that's another reason I like the Obito theory. Because he would create more drama in the story and create emotions within at least one character. *COUGH*Kakashi*COUGH*


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## F3ar0ner (Apr 29, 2012)

The only thing that's unexplained is his eye power, warping people and senting them in his own dimension.


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## NW (Apr 29, 2012)

*Could Tobi Be...The YOUNGER Son Of Rikudo?!*

Alright. I know alot of people think that Tobi is the Elder Son Of The Sage of Six Paths. But i'm here to give a similar theory of mine which I think is almost, if not, just as plausible. As you know from the title, my theory is that Tobi is actually the Younger Son of the Sage. I know you're probably thinking that this is stupid, but I'd advise reading it because it's not as contrived as you may think 

First off, the basics: The Younger Son has the same hairstyle as Tobi and his face looks more like Tobi's then the Elder Son's does. 

Now, for the good stuff:


The reason i think the Younger Son would make more sense if it was one of the sons is because i think he'd make a better antagonist. I know that sounds stupid, but listen. We all know that the Younger Son was the one who inherited the sage's will, right? Well, maybe he saw the curse of Hatred re-occur in every generation. He could have come to the conclusion that the world is worthless and thus would be better off under his complete control. 

He felt that his purpose in life was incomplete now and unfulfilled, thus why Tobi said, "I'm No One. I don't want to be anyone. All I care about is completing the Moon's Eye Plan. This world is completely worthless. there is nothing left in it but misery." 
LINK: ORO
LINK: ORO

He really feels that there is no hope left in the world because he tried to help it, but it did no good.
LINK:ORO



He became so corrupt that he stole his brother's eyes and killed him, thus giving him Uchiha AND Senju power. Tobi says during his fight with Konan that he does indeed possess both Uchiha AND Senju power.
LINK: ORO


But he felt as though he wasn't yet complete. He felt that, to fully fulfill his role, he needed to be everything his father was. Including the Juubi's jinchuriki. This is why he wants to do all this. To truly become the next Rikudo and bring his new vision of peace to the world, the vision which he adopted from his Elder Brother. 
LINK: ORO
LINK: ORO
LINK: ORO

Some more things to consider: The Younger Son was the son of Rikudo Sennin(duh) and was chosen as his successor, so he basically was the second Rikudo Sennin. What I find interesting is that, during his fight with Konan. He said that he was the SECOND Rikudo Sennin. Alot of the things that Tobi said during that battle seemed to be a mix of truth and lies. Like when he said that he was "Uchiha Madara", he was obviously lying. But I think, when he said that he was the "Second Rikudo" He was actually referring to himself.
LINK: ORO

The reason Tobi hates Hashirama so much could be because Hashirama reminds him of how he was in his youth. Back when he still believed that there was hope for the world. Since he has changed and no longer believes what he used to, this could be why he despises Hashirama to such an extent.


Now onto the more "out of the box" evidence. 

Since the Younger Son inherited the "physical body" of the sage, he most likely had a longer life span than most people. Not like, centuries long, or anything. But, longer than usual. I think, that by the time he had turned about 60 years of age, he must have already been corrupt at this time, and he figured out that in order to keep on living and fulfill his goals, he had to take new, fresh blood, from one of his descendants, the Senju. I think that he kept on doing this to survive, and, since he kept on increasing his life span, it also slowed down his aging so that he didn't physically age past around 60ish. Eventually, during Hashirama's time, after the defeat of Madara, the Younger Son formed the Moon's Eye Plan with Madara. Since Madara had obtained some of Hashirama's DNA, Tobi used them to create White Zetsu. With this new, Senju DNA composed creature, He now had an unlimited supply of Senju DNA to implant into himself. With this, he could survive as long as he wanted. 

Kinda choppy but seems plausible, nonetheless. I mean, He'd basically be a fallen, evil, corrupt version of Naruto, and make a great final antagonist for the series.


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## Stormcloak (Apr 29, 2012)

To much mindfuck


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## atduncan (Apr 29, 2012)

if you look at tobi's fighting style you will see your probably wrong. For one, Tobi isn't the type of fighter the younger son is described to be. Younger son is like Naruto - sage mode. Strong, tai jutsu skills , massive chakra. Tobi fights like an uchiha.


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## Whirlpool (Apr 29, 2012)

Mind = Blown

I want this so much


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## AoMythology (Apr 29, 2012)

TJFuZioN said:


> Hmmm...  I always figured that was him using his intangibility to move through the earth. Do the panels specifically quote a doton jutsu?



Definitely a Doton ninjutsu.


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## Escargon (Apr 29, 2012)

Why the hell should Tobi be a shity one-page character like Kagami or the son of Rikudou when Kisame took his own life to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis real face?

Peelz!


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## LostSelf (Apr 29, 2012)

Pretty good i'd say.

Naruto having to face a fallen version of himself would be amazing. He already faced his ancestor Nagato who was supposed to be the savior.

Kishi can be creating a path for Naruto to surpass every savior, beign his ultimate goal the younger son of RS and finally becoming the savior.

Pretty cool indeed. + reps.


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## AoMythology (Apr 29, 2012)

Sometimes I think that Kishimoto wrote himself into a corner and no matter what he does, he will either have a huge plot hole or an uninteresting revelation. I hope he proves me wrong.

The best I can think of is "future Sasuke", and we all know how ridiculous that theory is...


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## Rinnegan Zetsu (Apr 29, 2012)

No. I don't think so.


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## Mister (Apr 29, 2012)

Tobi is very likely not a son of the Rikudou Sennin. Why would his ocular powers remind Itachi of Madara?


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## Talis (Apr 29, 2012)

AoMythology said:


> Definitely a Doton ninjutsu.


 Isn't that Kakashi's style? 
That Tobi.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 29, 2012)

son_michael said:


> If the older son is still alive then he's far beyond old age, we are talking zombie shit here and the older son is known for his eye power, if anything the younger son who is known for his body is much more likely to be alive. However, the idea of either 1 of them being alive is REALLY far fetched, everything about the oldest and youngest sons should have been passed down their respective bloodlines, they should not have anything to do with the story. So for one of them to appear, both of them would appear and that would be ridiculous, therefore I rule the both of them out as possibilities for tobi.



The older son could live BECAUSE he is known for his known for his eyes and jutsus. Reanimation Jutsu (used by Orochimaru) etc.
That wouldn't be Zombie shit, it would be a plotless theory, about a character filled with hate like Tobi, and emotions created due to the fact, that he uses bodies of well known characters, like Madara and Obito, to live on.



Escargon said:


> Why the hell should Tobi be a shity one-page character like Kagami or the son of Rikudou when Kisame took his own life to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis real face?
> 
> Peelz!



I explained this about 100000 times. Read my theory if you are interessted in the answer.


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## Talis (Apr 29, 2012)

Sometimes i actually believe that Madara did something smiliar as Hiruzen did to Orochimaru; Hiruzen cut a piece of Orochimaru's soul which made him lose all his technique but yet he could stay alife.
I believe Madara might have ''fail'' transfered a piece of his own soul into Obito.
Mark how Tobi says ''damn you Orochimaru, how much did you know about what i was doing''?
I actually believe that Orochimaru got the whole Dna fuse/Soul transfer idea's from Madara himself.


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## Samehada (Apr 29, 2012)

Im more curious how Madara knew about Nagato when he stated that he died shortly after gaining the Rinnegan...Something is fishy


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## Mateush (Apr 29, 2012)

If Tobi is Izuna then I'm sure that we will learn that Hashirama's cells made him live much longer.


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## insane111 (Apr 29, 2012)

Didn't this theory die the second Madara opened his mouth and said Izuna is dead? Lets also not forget that Madara knows who Tobi is, so... yeah.

Additionally the databook also said he's dead as well, so now that's two times it has been made clear.


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## Mateush (Apr 29, 2012)

insane111 said:


> Didn't this theory die the second Madara opened his mouth and said Izuna is dead? Lets also not forget that Madara knows who Tobi is, so... yeah.
> 
> Additionally the databook also said he's dead as well, so now that's two times it has been made clear.



It's still not clear yet. He just said to these kages that his brother sacrificed his eye for him. We don't know what happened after, also if I don't remember wrong some said the databook explained Izuna died in the war.

edit:

Also this makes it seems as he really didn't die in the war. There's something fishy here.


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## NW (Apr 29, 2012)

*KISHIception!*



insane111 said:


> Didn't this theory die the second Madara opened his mouth and said Izuna is dead? Lets also not forget that Madara knows who Tobi is, so... yeah.
> 
> Additionally the databook also said he's dead as well, so now that's two times it has been made clear.



Madara saying that Izuna was dead could have been Kishi's way of making sure we remembered Izuna and what he looked like, while also making us not suspect him.


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 30, 2012)

son_michael said:


> If the older son is still alive then he's far beyond old age, we are talking zombie shit here and the older son is known for his eye power, if anything the younger son who is known for his body is much more likely to be alive. However, the idea of either 1 of them being alive is REALLY far fetched, everything about the oldest and youngest sons should have been passed down their respective bloodlines, they should not have anything to do with the story. So for one of them to appear, both of them would appear and that would be ridiculous, therefore I rule the both of them out as possibilities for tobi.



Ah, good morning sir. I find this argument always pops its head up and it's really very surprising to me. If anything, people should know that it's likely to be the Elder son and not the Younger that would live past his time despite the younger having higher longevity. I made this post explaining why. Too lazy to type it out again. Read the whole thing and pay special attention to the Tobi part. You'll see why it's far from unbelievable in this manga. I'll also just cover frequent arguments against the Elder son theory such as:

Why it's possible he could still be alive and would outlive the Younger
Why he would use Madara's name
What kind of relevance he would have as a character and towards other individual characters

*Why he may have lived so long*:



> There appears to be a really really reeeeeeeally obvious theme in naruto that many people just don't see so i'm going to bring it to light. My main observation is that some people don't seem to understand why it's possible that the elder son *could* survive longer than the younger given a particular scenario which is irrelevant right now. This is not about whether or not that is so but rather to emphasize the fact that it's *possible*.
> So read first, think then answer. If you make it past the think part you're likely to agree anyway. Here goes
> 
> *The Younger Son was the one gifted with longevity*. Duh! I wonder why everyone always goes back to this. It's not about what one has. It's about ambition. This theme should be obvious and i'm going to solidify it with facts.
> ...



*Why take Madara's indentity at all?*



MaskedMenace said:


> The main problem with this thread that it does not address why Tobi consider himself to be nobody and all that he cares about is to complete the Moo Eye's plan.



Understandable. But it's the truth. *He is a nobody*. He is nothing but a relic from the past forgotten over the generations. *If even the Sage of Six Paths existence can be forgotten (or hidden) and chalked up to myth by the bulk of the few that have even heard of him at all then what more of his sons? *The fact is their names have long been forgotten and even they were would be irrelevant. We refer to him as the Sage of Six Paths because that's the only part that matters and has actually been remembered. His name and the name of his sons have no relevance in the current era, only their reputations.
He used Madara's identity because Madara was a powerful, relevant name in *this current/recent era* and that's what could use to get things done. The elder son, even if he came without a mask couldn't do much in terms of moving people. Not without a display of power which he admits to no longer having much of. Despite this he had knowledge of generations and he needed resources or others with power to help him achieve his goals which is why he's such a big recruiter. In order to recruit power individual like those in Akatsuki, one cannot simply approach such powerful individuals with no identity or strong ideals. However if he presented himself as somebody admirable and powerful then things become easier. There is reason I believe the chapter was called *"The Power in a Name"*. 
What I've just described is the power a relevant name can have.


*Who is Tobi relevant to if he is the Elder?*

This is where this theory kicks all other theories asses because they are far too narrow. 



> This is why I believe Tobi to be the elder son. He doesn?t need to be someone we know. He doesn?t need to be someone that can stir an emotional reaction in any of the current characters *individually*. What he needs to be is somebody that presents so much of an overall threat that he can unite people who see things differently in order to face a powerful foe and that?s exactly what he is. He is likely the final villain for this very reason.





> Tobi *HAS *already affected *ALL *as I said in the final lines of the OP. *Tobi is not there to affect anyone personally, he far bigger than that*, and we can see he clearly has no personal interactions or regard for any of the people he has met. What Tobi is there to do is be the story's glue that has forcibly *united *all nations against a powerful common enemy in order that they understand each other. Without his Akatsuki exploits, that all-Kage meeting would never have happened. This united forehead protector wouldn't be worn by ninjas from the hidden leaf, rain etc would not exist. Tobi has already fulfilled a far greater interaction with everyone than most people think as opposed to him knowing a couple of people which would be rather *weak and irrelevant* in the big picture. Tobi's role has unknowingly triggered the move towards future understanding and peace between those nations.



Fugaku, Izuna, Kagamai, Obito. None of them could do this or have this effect on everyone. The elder son theory is word for word a better argument than any of the others. Even the frequent arguments against it have solid explanation. It doesn't have to be true, but when looking at it without bias, it's the best argument. 

The best elder son theory (or even Tobi) you'll ever find can be found  or even in my sig


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 30, 2012)

What makes that elder son theory better than other elder son theories? xDD


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 30, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> What makes that elder son theory better than other elder son theories? xDD



It's presented comprehensively and argued very well. 
It doesn't lie about facts and admits to speculation where it exists and is backed up by themes in the manga if not directly by evidence. 
It's actually convinced a couple of people on another forum to change their opinions on the matter of Tobi's identity and many others to at least accept the idea as plausible which is in the end what it strives for. 

Five stars on two forums doesn't lie. XD


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 30, 2012)

Shin - Zangetsu said:


> It's presented comprehensively and argued very well.
> It doesn't lie about facts and admits to speculation where it exists and is backed up by themes in the manga if not directly by evidence.
> It's actually convinced a couple of people on another forum to change their opinions on the matter of Tobi's identity and many others to at least accept the idea as plausible which is in the end what it strives for.



So is mine


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 30, 2012)

That's awesome then. Provide link.


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## Kiss (Apr 30, 2012)

Now that would surprise me.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 30, 2012)

Shin - Zangetsu said:


> That's awesome then. Provide link.



Signature ;D


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Now onto the more "speculative" evidence.



The bulk of it is speculative tbh. Still, worth a shot and shouldn't be written off completely.

Still it's not too convincing.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Apr 30, 2012)

I think Tobi could be one of the Rikudou Sennin son.

Izuna:  can't be Tobi since he is dead - Confirmed by Madara.

Shisui : can't be Tobi just for the sole reason that Itachi have MS - mean Shisui is dead.

Obito: is very unlikely that he is Tobi but everything can happen if it written by Kishi, maybe Kakashi year is when Tobi identity is revealed.

Madara Clone: is very likely since is explain why he know so much about Hashirama vs Madara fight at the VoTE , Uchiha Table, Controlling and Summoning the Kyuubi  - only a feat that can be accomplished by Madara , why he say nagato eyes belong it to him, rinne tensei was supposed to be used for him , why he say he is "no one" since he is a clone and his only purpose in the life is complete the moon eye plan.

Kagami: Tobi? is very unlikely since he's not even related to the plot nor even a revelant character.


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## son_michael (Apr 30, 2012)

Shin - Zangetsu said:


> Ah, good morning sir. I find this argument always pops its head up and it's really very surprising to me. If anything, people should know that it's likely to be the Elder son and not the Younger that would live past his time despite the younger having higher longevity. I made this post explaining why. Too lazy to type it out again. Read the whole thing and pay special attention to the Tobi part. You'll see why it's far from unbelievable in this manga. I'll also just cover frequent arguments against the Elder son theory such as:
> 
> Why it's possible he could still be alive and would outlive the Younger
> Why he would use Madara's name
> What kind of relevance he would have as a character and towards other individual characters



and Ohio to you too sir. So from reading that it seems that you support the elder son being alive over the younger...just because? I certainly see the theme present but that's hardly relevant to the elder son. In the end, this seems like simple conjecture.

Who's to say Tobi plans on being alive while casting Mugen Tsukiyomi? Maybe he plans for Sasuke to act like a battery and just lose all consciousness and self awareness as he forever projects an infinite illusion. You can't just assume things, maybe Tobi does intend to cast it himself forever and live inside of his victims in a genjutsu world where he doesn't need to have a real body and thus he would technically die but be alive by another means. You can't just assume things, as you can see there are many possible outcomes.

and what about the younger son? Its stupid for the elder to be alive and the younger to have died. How is he alive anyway? Some random eye jutsu? Where is your evidence?









> Fugaku, Izuna, Kagamai, Obito. None of them could do this or have this effect on everyone. The elder son theory is word for word a better argument than any of the others. Even the frequent arguments against it have solid explanation. It doesn't have to be true, but when looking at it without bias, it's the best argument.




tobi trying to bring peace to the world would NOT make sense if its the elder son because he is cursed with hatred and power hungry. Why is it so much better if tobi is an ancient ninja with a grudge? If Tobi ends up being the elder son, the cast will shout at him how he's wrong and hatred wont prevail....boooooring


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## Shaz (Apr 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I also don't think that it's Obito's body with someone else's soul in it. The reason is because what's the point of it being Obito's body if it's not actually Obito's soul in it, too? It would be more fun if it was completely Obito, body and soul. I also agree with Tobi being the Older Son or Izuna.





Obito's body may just be a Vessel for this 'Tobi', whoever he may be. He saw an available, young Uchiha body, which is capable for the skills he needs to use it for, however I do think it is the Older Son or Izuna, using a vessel, as Orichimaru wanted to use Sasuke as a vessel.


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## Shin - Zangetsu (Apr 30, 2012)

son_michael said:


> and Ohio to you too sir. So from reading that it seems that you support the elder son being alive over the younger...just because? I certainly see the theme present but that's hardly relevant to the elder son. In the end, this seems like simple conjecture.


Hello. I'm assuming you've read the thread too. Of course I agree with that it's conjecture. I'm not about to claim speculation as fact but so is any other Tobi theory. It's the best speculation is all I'm saying as it's based on consistent theme imho. That's the way heroes and villains behave in the manga simply. Through that kind of thought surely you can see the possibility at the very least huh?



> Who's to say Tobi plans on being alive while casting Mugen Tsukiyomi? Maybe he plans for *Sasuke to act like a battery* and just lose all consciousness and self awareness as he forever projects an infinite illusion. You can't just assume things, maybe Tobi does intend to cast it himself forever and live inside of his victims in a genjutsu world where he doesn't need to have a real body and thus he would technically die but be alive by another means. You can't just assume things, as you can see there are many possible outcomes.



Again. It's the most sensible assumption. The reason he wants the juubi...that sounds more like a battery when you want to perform a huge feat like this doesn't it? That at least indicates he plans on doing the deed himself and fueling it with his own body, else he need not be the jinchuuriki in the first place. I'm confident he plans on being an administrator were his plan ever to bare fruit.



> and what about the younger son? Its stupid for the elder to be alive and the younger to have died. How is he alive anyway? Some random eye jutsu? Where is your evidence?



Again. Just give that first theme a look see and you'll see that it's not so unbelievable. Madara is alive and Hashirama is not, that's the point. As I've said. *The method is irrelevant*, just know that it's a possibility. We need not put too much detail into the how because one of the most fascinating aspects will include how he was able to survive so long. 












> *tobi trying to bring peace to the world would NOT make sense if its the elder son because he is cursed with hatred and power hungry*. Why is it so much better if tobi is an ancient ninja with a grudge? If Tobi ends up being the elder son, the cast will shout at him how he's wrong and hatred wont prevail....boooooring



Okay. Just for the sake of a more well rounded debate read the thread in conjuction with what I posted here. If you do you'll see that I've already covered all of this stuff. I unfortunately am not in a place to get the panel but don't forget that the Elder son believed in peace as well. Peace by virtue of might as opposed to love and understanding. It has nothing to do with a grudge. He would simply be finishing what he started and validating his philosophy which had been rejected for the Younger son's.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 30, 2012)

Shin - Zangetsu said:


> Again. Just give that first theme a look see and you'll see that it's not so unbelievable. Madara is alive and Hashirama is not, that's the point. As I've said. *The method is irrelevant*, just know that it's a possibility. We need not put too much detail into the how because one of the most fascinating aspects will include how he was able to survive so long.



The method is not irrelevant. In fact the method of staying alive is the key, which connects all Tobi theories and binds them to the elder son.
The elder son used a jutsu which became famous thanks to Orochimaru - the Fushi Tensei.
For this jutsu he takes the bodies of other people to live on, which means he used also Madara's and Obito's body. 
Everyone who tries to explain a Madara or Obito theory uses hints, which lead to the point, that Tobi is *the body* of Obito or Madara. Which is in fact true. The elder son took their bodies to live on, which also means he knew Madara. Every hint given by Kishi matches with the theory, that the elder son is Tobi and used Fushi Tensei or a similar technique to live that long.


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## Talis (Apr 30, 2012)

son_michael said:


> tobi trying to bring peace to the world would NOT make sense if its the elder son because he is cursed with hatred and power hungry. Why is it so much better if tobi is an ancient ninja with a grudge? If Tobi ends up being the elder son, the cast will shout at him how he's wrong and hatred wont prevail....boooooring



I agree with this, but alltho i like it funny how Kishi keept come up with pretty dumb reasons to make fodders like Obito strong at all.
First the whole dumb Dna fusion shit, then he came with the ''Uchiha's hatred cycle'' these are perfect reason for Tobi being Obito, like Kishi made these 2 points just meant for Obito.


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## Tobis6PathsOfpain (Apr 30, 2012)

mathewmcmann said:


> Has anyone thought that maybe it is just an old soul that is inhabiting a body, like a reverse-jinchuuriki possibly the soul of the ten-tails inhabiting a body of the uchiha like Obito?


thats a copy of my theory


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## Escargon (Apr 30, 2012)

*Are you trying to figure out Tobis identity by looking at the face he showed?

Its irrelevant. 
He got Madara implanted. 
The UCHIHA face he got is Madaras. He got it implanted. Understand? Implanted. 
Its old cause its growing old. 
No, its not scars, its wrinkles. Reread the chapters and look at Mifune. 

Hint 1: Reread chapter 510 and look at Tobis face carefully. See the shadow? Its his real identity. Kishimoto is hiding it. Sigh.

Hint 2: As i stated one page ago, HE IS FROM KONOHA! KISAME BIT OFF HIS TONGUE TO NOT REVEAL TOBIS IDENTITY TO KONOHA! THAT MEANS, HE GOT A CLONE OF HIS REAL IDENTITY WORKING FOR KONOHA, or something like that?

 HERE, READ: Edo Jin

To make it more clear: If Konoha saw his real identity, the war would be fucked up.



*


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## UltimateDeadpool (Apr 30, 2012)

Tobi's identity certainly is a huge mystery, and we're running out of possible suspects. 

We thought for a long time that he was Madara, and why shouldn't we have? But that was revealed to be a trick. That brought us to...

Obito? If he survived then he would had been about 14 when he fought Minato, and I don't know how Obito could had both grew and become so powerful in just about a year. Hell, he wasn't even in Kakashi's league just a year prior, then he's almost beating Minato? Also something else is that Obito would had known all about Minato's teleporting, Tobi didn't seem to know too much about it. 

Izuna? A long-time possibility, but Madara knows about Tobi and himself said that Izuna's dead, which crushed that theory. 

The first Uchiha? That really seems impossible, Tobi would be potentially thousands of years old.

Sakumo? Nope, we saw him talking to Kakashi in limbo. 

Can't be Hashirama or Tobirama, they were both resurrected and subsequently sealed away. Obviously not Minato or Hiruzen either for that matter.

What other known characters are there that are powerful but currently not active in the current time-line? 

Sasuke Sarutobi? He had his name dropped about 80 chapters ago, so he isn't an established character but he was given a mysterious connection to the Uchiha clan.

I however think that Tobi may actually be the first Zetsu, and used Zetsu's shapeshifting ability to become Madara. This would also explain Tobi's Zetsu-goo body.


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## NW (Apr 30, 2012)

I was just re-reading chapter 510 and found something interesting. 


LINK: still does


If you look in the middle-right panel, you can see down the left side of Tobi's mask. It's not exactly blatantly obvious, and it's shaded out a little(figures) but you can see alot of the left side of Tobi's face. And there are no wrinkles/scars there whatsoever. I know this isn't much to go on for Tobi being Obito, but that, combined with that panel in chapter 486:

LINK: still does

really do show that Tobi has no wrinkles/scars on the opposite side of his face.


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## The Weeknd (Apr 30, 2012)

That Nagato face is fucking creepy.


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## Escargon (Apr 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Tobi's identity certainly is a huge mystery, and we're running out of possible suspects.
> 
> We thought for a long time that he was Madara, and why shouldn't we have? But that was revealed to be a trick. That brought us to...
> 
> ...



In case you missed my message, Kisame bit off his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing his face or his plan would be ruined.

So it means that Tobis clone or something is working for Konoha, thats the best answer.

So im pretty damn sure Tobi is someone alive right now and in Konoha.



TobiUchiha111 said:


> I was just re-reading chapter 510 and found something interesting.
> 
> 
> LINK: still does
> ...



Yeah, Kishi dont need to draw those wrinkles everytime


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## NW (Apr 30, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Yeah, Kishi dont need to draw those wrinkles everytime



Going by that logic, Kishi doesn't have to always draw the wrinkles on the right side of his face either.

My point is, Kishi could have drawn the wrinkles there, but he didn't. Because Tobi wouldn't have any wrinkles/scars on the opposite side.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> What other known characters are there that are powerful but currently not active in the current time-line?



There's Kagami.



Escargon said:


> *
> 
> Hint 2: As i stated one page ago, HE IS FROM KONOHA! KISAME BIT OFF HIS TONGUE TO NOT REVEAL TOBIS IDENTITY TO KONOHA! THAT MEANS, HE GOT A CLONE OF HIS REAL IDENTITY WORKING FOR KONOHA, or something like that?]
> 
> *



Just because Kisame bit his tongue to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobi's face, that doesn't automatically mean he's from Konoha. I highly doubt he is. Kisame may have prevented Konoha from seeing Tobi's face for other unknown reasons. I don't know where you got that "Tobi is from Konoha" shit from lol. Kisame doesn't let Konoha see Tobi's identity. So that means he's from Konoha? Lolwut.



insane111 said:


> The problem is there is absolutely nothing known about Kagami, he showed up in like 1 panel or something and he was irrelevant. The Kagami theory is possible since there's nothing to contradict it, but he isn't any better than it being a completely unknown character.



Why don't you try researching Kagami up or try learning a bit more about him in the Narutopedia instead of posting a pathetic and useless post huh? There's a fairly good amount of info about Kagami that can lead him to be tobi. Out of all the Tobi identity theories, I think the Kagami one is the most accurate and plausible theory. I don't follow it completely because there are some flaws in it, but I support it a lot. So in a way, I follow it to some degree. Next time don't post this "Kagami is a unknown and irrelevant character" shit because it's not needed.



Escargon said:


> Why the hell should Tobi be a shity one-page character like Kagami or the son of Rikudou when Kisame took his own life to prevent Konoha from seeing Tobis real face?
> 
> Peelz!



You're a fucking idiot. Instead of bashing a character by calling him shitty when he's clearly not, why don't you try reading some "Tobi is Kagami" theories and then you'll see why people think Tobi can be Kagami. But you"ll probably not even bother to read Kagami theories, so let me list all the evidence there is that can lead Kagami to be Tobi:

- Kagami means "mirror" in Japanese. Tobi wants to cast Tsukiyomi on the moon. The moon will be reflected from the Tsukiyomi like a mirror.

- Kagami was the only one who was absent when the nine tails attacked the village 16 years ago. All of his other teammates were there. Strange, huh?

- He was on the same team as Tobirama Senju. He might have adopted the name "Tobi" out of Tobirama to maybe avenge his master or something.

- Tobirama knew the S/T jutsu. It's possible that Kagami might have learned it from him and advanced it to a whole new level.

I think I have listed all the evidence, but if I think of more or find more, I'll add on to this list.


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## NW (Apr 30, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> - Kagami means "mirror" in Japanese. Tobi wants to cast Tsukiyomi on the moon. The moon will be reflected from the Tsukiyomi like a mirror.
> 
> - Kagami was the only one who was absent when the nine tails attacked the village 16 years ago. All of his other teammates were there. Strange, huh?
> 
> ...




Don't forget that Tobi seemed to know everything Danzo did during Sasuke's fight with him, almost as if he knew him personally.....

Danzo also went into a flashback with Kagami in it while making eye contact with Tobi.

Another thing that's strange, is that Tobirama was keeping a very close watch on the Uchiha, yet he had one on his team. I wonder what was so special about Kagami........


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## AoMythology (Apr 30, 2012)

> Why don't you try researching Kagami up or try learning a bit more about him in the Narutopedia instead of posting a pathetic and useless post huh? There's a fairly good amount of info about Kagami that can lead him to be tobi. Out of all the Tobi identity theories, I think the Kagami one is the most accurate and plausible theory. I don't follow it completely because there are some flaws in it, but I support it a lot. So in a way, I follow it to some degree. Next time don't post this "Kagami is a unknown and irrelevant character" shit because it's not needed.



Yes, we know his name, that he had reached 3 tomoe in his Sharingan, that he was teammates with Danzo and an Akimichi and that his team along with Tobirama's team were on the mission Tobirama died.

I wouldn't exactly call that an abundance of information.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Apr 30, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Don't forget that Tobi seemed to know everything Danzo did during Sasuke's fight with him, almost as if he knew him personally.....
> 
> Danzo also went into a flashback with Kagami in it while making eye contact with Tobi.
> 
> Another thing that's strange, is that Tobirama was keeping a very close watch on the Uchiha, yet he had one on his team. I wonder what was so special about Kagami........



Thanks for listing those two points. I hope the Kagami theory haters read my points and yours. And you're right. I wonder what special thing Kagami had that made Tobirama not keep an eye on him, but keep an eye on all the other Uchiha.


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## Crystaltiger (Apr 30, 2012)

Kagami is the only theory I see nearly as possible as the elder son theory.
I am sure one of the two hits it. But I am still counting on the elder son and don't think that will change without any further information ;D


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## T-Bag (Apr 30, 2012)

Crystaltiger said:


> Kagami is the only theory I see nearly as possible as the elder son theory.
> I am sure one of the two hits it. But I am still counting on the elder son and don't think that will change without any further information ;D



even the worst of writers wouldnt think of revealing tobi to be kagami/elder son of the sage. no not even students who are aiming to be writers


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## 青月光 (Apr 30, 2012)

Not bad OP


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## TJFuZioN (Apr 30, 2012)

@AnMythology: That's incredibly weird. Thanks for clearing that up, though (or UNclearing it up, as far as my theories go).



loool3 said:


> Isn't that Kakashi's style?
> That Tobi.



I don't know if you're joking but this doton jutsu is yet another thing that links Tobi to Kakashi. (Obito just became a little bit more plausible in my head).

I still have to believe that there's a reason Tobi has only ever used one jutsu, (and a low-level doton at that)otherwise it comes off as ETXREMELY random on Kishi's part. I mean why has he only ever used it once? And why that specific jutsu??

Here's a wild thought:
Maybe unsealed sharingans can "see" forever. Even beyond death. What I mean is that, Uchihas could possibly be able to see through transplanted eyes, meaning, for instance that Madara and Itachi could see through Nagato and Sasuke's eyes respectively. Maybe not see in the traditional sense, but in some ethereal and oblique way, essentially establishing a link between the two users. This might explain how Madara might "know" Nagato, despite appearing to have died young. (I mean, it really isn't clear whether Kabuto somehow made Madara's body younger or simply gave him a power boost, or what that power boost even was). He might even be able to relay his plan to him somehow. Black Zetsu, maybe?

What I'm getting at with this is that Tobi might be Obito and able to "see" through Kakashi's eye, ultimately influencing his MS Jutsu and even his elemental affinity(earth could've been Obito's second element). 

I am talking out of my ass, of course, and I realise that this has a LOT of holes, but I thought I'd throw it out there. Somebody smarter and more sober might come up with something more concrete.


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## insane111 (Apr 30, 2012)

None of those points change the fact that Kagami appeared in like 1 or 2 panels, with no highlights/hints in that flashback other than the fact he existed, and not a single hint or utterance of his name anywhere else in the entire manga. Any reader who doesn't participate in reading these theories wouldn't even remember who Kagami is or where he appeared.

But hey, I'm not saying it's impossible. If you think Kishi is that bad of a writer that he would make Tobi an unknown 1 panel character, then have at it.


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## son_michael (Apr 30, 2012)

Shin - Zangetsu said:


> Hello. I'm assuming you've read the thread too. Of course I agree with that it's conjecture. I'm not about to claim speculation as fact but so is any other Tobi theory. It's the best speculation is all I'm saying as it's based on consistent theme imho. That's the way heroes and villains behave in the manga simply. Through that kind of thought surely you can see the possibility at the very least huh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Madara isn't alive. Tobi is not Madara.... 



The elder son is evil, he has "cursed eyes" and perpetuates a cycle of hatred towards the younger brother and all his descendants who inherited the sages good philosophy. The elder son is wrong and relies on power, power corrupts.


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## Talis (Apr 30, 2012)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Tobi's identity certainly is a huge mystery, and we're running out of possible suspects.
> 
> We thought for a long time that he was Madara, and why shouldn't we have? But that was revealed to be a trick. That brought us to...
> 
> ...


Tobi clearly didn't beat Minato, Minato clearly suicide for no reason.
Zetsu goo might have boosted Obito's seize, he knew about the S/T until Minato used v2, which Obito probably never saw before.


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## Almondsand (Apr 30, 2012)

This is about to go 100 pages, look at how illogical most of the people minds work when they read the manga. Kagami being Tobi is not even a possibility, it leaves so many plot holes, he would had been mentioned as a possible Uchiha that had left the village, I mean Danzo would have had intelligence on his whereabouts. However, when Danzo saw Tobi, he referred to him as Madara, as did Itachi and these two guys are the epitome of being in the shadows. SO fuck all those other theories, all you better ride my dick after Tobi is revealed to be something Madara created from his essence and combined him with Hashirama and other things making a Faux Madara.


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## insane111 (Apr 30, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> all you better ride my dick after Tobi is revealed to be something Madara created from his essence and combined him with Hashirama and other things making a Faux Madara.



It's not like that's an uncommon theory . Madara-clone and Elder son are practically the only ones left that would not require Kishi to pull some serious bullshitting/retcons.

 Then again part 2 has been littered with retcons and plot holes, so who knows.


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## Almondsand (May 1, 2012)

It's not an uncommon theory but I mean I am one of the last few who stood by it, and blatantly say that Tobi is who he stated he was, but once Madara came back, he had to go back to his role of being nothing more than his flunkie who is nothing more than his clone.


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## Russo (May 1, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> This is about to go 100 pages, look at how illogical most of the people minds work when they read the manga. Kagami being Tobi is not even a possibility, it leaves so many plot holes, he would had been mentioned as a possible Uchiha that had left the village, I mean Danzo would have had intelligence on his whereabouts. However, when Danzo saw Tobi, he referred to him as Madara, as did Itachi and these two guys are the epitome of being in the shadows. SO fuck all those other theories, all you better ride my dick after Tobi is revealed to be something Madara created from his essence and combined him with Hashirama and other things making a Faux Madara.



Not only this, but All these theories have a major flaw, Tobi was never meant to be akatsuki leader, there is an interview, where kish talk about akatsuki leader and why he looked that way, his name was "Pain", so kish said, he wanted to give him a look of some1 who enjoys pain, etc.. etc... so nagato and "later" tobi are an asspull.

Only later, that he decided to make nagato the "leader" and then tobi the one pulling the strings and being some1 else.

so when him introduced tobi, he never planned that bscrap from the begin, that is why any theories with old panels will always be a fail.

Tobi will be some1 that kishi will pick up randomly, not something that he planned when he introcuded Tobi, eventually some1 with any retard theory will get it right.

unless if 
*Spoiler*: __ 




he pulls a kakashi, trolling every1, like there is another mask hidden under his mask or a new character.


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## First Tsurugi (May 1, 2012)

I don't know about that.

I think it's pretty obvious Kishi had Tobi's character planned from the beginning, considering Itachi's comments about the third Sharingan user.


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## Ghost (May 1, 2012)

did this few months ago

[YOUTUBE]_rATABm92I0[/YOUTUBE]


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## Senju138 (May 1, 2012)

Tobi is shisui bro, his eyes were accounted for, his arm removed and attached to danzo look @ link below read Tobi's commen to Danzo:
Chapter 225

Now for those who say he's too young 1st off his age was never stated, and if he was like an older brother to Itachi it could be because he was close to Fugaku the HEAD Uchiha. Now I want to note how old do you think Shisui could've been during the Kyuubi incident since Itachi was old enough to babysit Sasuke:
Chapter 225

I believe Shisui was more like a godfather to Itachi. then we get the hunch that the Uchiha had info on the labor:
Chapter 225

remember the tablet has secrets left by the Rikudou sennin, the sot6p would know about the seal being weak during childbirth and have mentioned it on the Uchiha tablet:

He faked his death just like his mentor Madara and he is the only person we can concieve putting Itachi under a genjutsu strong enough to believe he's dead and a Konoha hero. Another clue is he was known as Shunshin no Shisui and now this guy has the greatest Shunshin known in the Narutoworld and then we have Killerbee talking like he knew Shisui or knew of him so the guy was renowned enough that Kumo knew him on that scale:
Chapter 225

And Ao recognizing Shisui's chakra from battle and from being used on Yagura. Lets not forget all the recent mentions shisui has had. When Tobi told Kabuto don't bet on finding Shisui's body.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (May 1, 2012)

Tobi turning out to be the Elder son is more likely than him turning out to be the younger son.


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## Moon Fang (May 1, 2012)

He's too mean to be the younger son


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## Datakim (May 2, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> He's too mean to be the younger son



To be fair, its been a very long time since the time of Rikudou. If Tobi is the younger son, there has been plenty of time for him to be driven mad by the war and the fate of bijuu and constant failure to achieve peace in the world through love and so on.


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## Sasuke` (May 2, 2012)

Nice Theory. I still think it's Shisui though.


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## Barioth (May 2, 2012)

That would be anti-climatic. The whole rikkudo senin is evil and juubi is good.


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## Senju138 (May 2, 2012)

Sasuke` said:


> Nice Theory. I still think it's Shisui though.



hey bro forgot to point this one out: read Itachi's words in the last frame:
Tobi

and then read tobi's bottom frame here:
Tobi

A nameless shinobi who protects peace from within its shadow.


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## Senju138 (May 2, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Shisui : can't be Tobi just for the sole reason that Itachi have MS - mean Shisui is dead.



I would've agreed with you back in part 1, but explain how Kakashi awakened the Mangekyou through the loss of??? Its more likely through a dramatic event. Or maybe when Itachi tsukiyomi'd him he awakened it lol. itachi said that to motivate Sasuke to enact revenge for his clan and not turn out like him. Madara and Izuna both awakened the MS through rigorous training they didn't kill each other from what we've been told in the manga.
Seeing Shisui's Zetsu clone dead would be enough to fool Itachi back then, Zetsu has been fodderized yet we did't get any flashback so I doubt we've heard the last of Zetsu's involvement with the uchiha. I think he hand Tobi had they're hands in on the Massacre. Also theres more than one Tobi, the original Madara(long hair, bandaged chest) and Tobi we have now. Kagami, Shisui, Obito gonna have some relation reveal soon. Fugaku & Kagami older and younger bros maybe? would be a funny pattern to see the bros as descendants of Madara and so on


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## Chibason (May 2, 2012)

Cool theory, OP. But I doubt he is the younger son...Im an Elder son theorists


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## Escargon (May 2, 2012)

Kagami beliviers calling me a fkn idiot.

Im sorry that i dont want to belivie that a character introduced a long time after Tobi could be Tobi, take Kagami who got introduced years after.

I cant belivie someone called me an idiot because of that. Why the hell would i want to read such shity theories?

Rofl people belivie that the Uchiha face of Tobi is his identity. Just draw Sasuke with wrinkles and Tobi is solved. That face he showed is implanted. Think like Kishi. Why would he else shadow Izanagi area?

Go on argue.


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## Shaduge (May 2, 2012)

Why would he pretend to be Madara then?


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## Talis (May 2, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Kagami beliviers calling me a fkn idiot.
> 
> Im sorry that i dont want to belivie that a character introduced a long time after Tobi could be Tobi, take Kagami who got introduced years after.
> 
> ...


Because he's Obito with 50% crushed face and 50% non crushed face? 
If Kishi did show the blackened face as ''no wrinkles'' then it would have been 1 hit the whole Tobi's identity since everyone with common logic would know that it actually is Obito, then the whole Tobidara story would have been wasted for nothing.
There are 2 panels supporting this so hard, and instead accepting this theory you accept the ''Tobi has Madara's face implanted'' theory? 
It's true everything might happen in a manga, but theres still some difference between fantasy and ridiculous.


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## Shaduge (May 2, 2012)

maybe he's the sharingan user in the 2nd hokage's team? why would he claim that he's madara if he's one of the sons of rikudo? obito sounds like tobi but he was crushed


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## Talis (May 2, 2012)

Shaduge said:


> maybe he's the sharingan user in the 2nd hokage's team? why would he claim that he's madara if he's one of the sons of rikudo? obito sounds like tobi but he was crushed


Not.


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## Talis (May 2, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> - Kagami was the only one who was absent when the nine tails attacked the village 16 years ago. All of his other teammates were there. Strange, huh?


The whole Uchiha clan was absent.


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## Crystaltiger (May 2, 2012)

Paaaage 100!!!! Celebrate Tobi's mistery!! Elder Son! Elder Son! ;D



Shaduge said:


> maybe he's the sharingan user in the 2nd hokage's team? why would he claim that he's madara if he's one of the sons of rikudo? obito sounds like tobi but he was crushed



Because the elder son IS Madara. And he IS Tobi. He used the bodies of all "evil" Uchihas for his Juubi-Plan.



loool3 said:


> The whole Uchiha clan was absent.



Facepalm - owned ;DD


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## First Tsurugi (May 2, 2012)

Fuck, I wanted to snipe the page.

Oh well, I'll just try for post 2000.


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## Crystaltiger (May 2, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Fuck, I wanted to snipe the page.
> 
> Oh well, I'll just try for post 2000.



Ba dum tz! ;D Good luck on that one ;D


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## NW (May 2, 2012)

I've just figured out that it would be illogical for Tobi to be ANYONE besides Obito. Back in part 1, itachi told sasuke in a flashback that there was a third Sharingan user. Now, we all now that he was talking about Tobi, which means that Kishi would have had Tobi's identity set from the start. Now, who was already created by Kishi at that time, who is a plausible Tobi candidate? Obito. If Tobi is Kagami or one of those sons or anyone introduced way after him, then Kishi would have talked about them more. Obviously Kishi had to have Obito in his mind since we already knew kakashi had his sharingan. I think that Kishi intended Obito to be the main villain from the beginning. If it were someone like Kagami or the sons or something, why not mention them sooner or talk about them more often.

 There's got to be a reason that gaiden and Tobi's first apearance are seperated by the Gaara rescue arc. And, tobi and obito are both shown to be clumsy in their first apearances. Also, who the hell else besides Obito would be able to pull off a silly act like that? All these people can't explain why Tobi's space-time only comes from his right eye. And why his mask is suspiciously the same color as Tobi's mask, inssiting a similar color preference. 

Also, Tobi wore his akatsuki ring on his left hand, while obito held his Kunai with his left hand, this could mean that they're both lefties.

When kakashi was dying after his battle with pain, he was remembering Obito and thinking how he broke his promise and couldn't save Rin. This could be part of obito's motive. it could also be why kakashi said everyone close to him ws dead. it's because Obito keeps killing them all to get revenge for him not protecting Rin. Combined with his hatred for war and being crushed by a huge boulder, I could see Madara being able to corrupt him and make him turn evil. Also, remember that sharingan glare he gave Kakashi? these things are called 'foreshadowing". Authors use it all the time, guys.

LINK: here
LINK: here
LINK: here

And, here's another example of foreshadowing: 

LINK: here

Why would kakashi randomly mention that he broke his promise to protect Rin? Kishi had to be hinting at something.

And we've already seen bits of the left side of his face in these panels and it doesn't apear to have any wrinkles/scars:

LINK: here
LINK: here

In the first one of those links, why wouls Kishi draw those wrinkles on one side but not the left? Why would he even bother with that? maybe he was hinting at something?

Plus, Kishi can be very obvious sometimes, like how the fourth Hogake was Naruto's father. So, the same might hold tya same for Tobi being obito.

Obito also fits the best thematically. For example: a running theme in this manga is for students to surpass their mentors. Thematically, it would make sense if Obito surpassed his. At least in terms of Space-time ninjutsu. Here are some examples of when Tobi's space-time ninjutsu was stated to be greater than Minato's:
LINK: here
LINK: here

And also, obito was an exact paralel to Naruto. He had naruto's color scheme of orange and blue axcept reversed. Now, why would kishi make Obito so like naruto? Because an evil Obito would therefore make a great antagonist and anti-theses to Naruto. think about it. It makes sense.


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## Crystaltiger (May 2, 2012)

*If Tobi is The Elder Son..... the whole story*

To celebrate the 100th site in the "Tobi's identity thread" I collected every piece of my Tobi theory, to show it to you guys. Hopefully you well let me know, what you think of it.
At first I want to thank *Shin - Zangetsu*, another user who believes in the *Elder Son Theory* and who stated his points in . Many people (as me) appreciate his work in this thread and rewarded it with 5 stars. In his thread he lists various hints in the manga, which lead to the Elder Son and more. In this thread i want to expand his work, by stating *HOW* the Elder Son could/would have lived so long, and why it perfectly matches in the Story Line of Naruto, as well as filling every Story Gap.



> How could the Elder Son survive that long of a time?



The Elder Son was the one, who was gifted with the RS' eyes, chakra and spiritual energy.

Therefore he should be able to use several jutsu's we don't even know,as well as jutsu's we know now in other versions (reinvented). When asking, how a person can survive in Naruto the first thing, that comes to my mind is Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei. The jutsu, which he uses to take over other people's bodies and live on in them.
This means, he survived by taking over the bodies of other members of the Uchiha Clan.
Orochimaru's jutsus are based on research, he takes other jutsus and adjusts them to himself, like the edo tensei, which was originally invented by the 2nd Hokage. Therefore we can assume, that there was a jutsu like Fushi Tensei before.



> What was the reason for him, to use Fushi Tensei.



It's obviously the feud of Uchiha and Senju.

As already mentioned the Elder Son overtook the bodies of other Uchiha members. (Maybe only for the feud, maybe because he couldn't take other bodies because the sharingan would drain too much chakra in Non-Uchiha-bodies)
These bodies allowed him to keep on the feud with the Senju Clan -> You may say: The Uchihas, who fought the Senju, are simply all Tobi.
In the 2nd Image I inserted, Tobi said "The descendants of the two brothers still warred with each other" but it's simply a war between the Elder Son and the descendants of the younger son.



> So why did Tobi say, that he was Madara?



Because he actually *was* Madara. One of the Uchihas, overtaken by Tobi was Madara, after he founded Konoha with Hashirama. Tobi controled the Kyuubi in Madaras body in order to destroy Konoha, which gave force to the Senju, but lost to Hashirama. He had to back down. He was weak after that battle, Tobi even says that in one chapter. So nothing happend for the next about 50 years. He probably changed his body a few times, until we get to the 3rd Ninja World War.

*Time for some maths at this point:*

Assuming he needs a body all 15-20 years he switched 2 times in this interval and when he needed the third body, he took the one of Obito. (Dies in 3rd War, which takes place *47* years after Madara "summoned" the Kyuubi, maybe Tobi was exhausted for some reason and not able to take the body of a living Uchiha, so he took Obitos). Again he attacks Konoha with the Kyuubi, but is stopped by Minato. (Maybe Obitos body was to not strong enough, because of one missing Sharingan) Again he has to back down and wait to get new power. But his time is limited, he needs a new body. That's when he observes 2 Uchiha growing up, who might be strong enough to fulfill his plans, to destroy Konoha: Itachi and Shisui. He plans to take one of them as his next body. Itachi kills Shisui in order to be either strong enough to kill all Uchihas for the Konoha elders or to prevent Shisui from expose Itachis plan.
Tobi knows that he is not strong enough to take Itachis body (Orochimaru fails at the same time to take Itachis body). [Possible reasons for Tobi to fail taking his body: Tobi is still weakend due to the lose to Minato, implanted Sharingan drains Tobis Chakra, Shisui's Kotoamatsukami in the eye taken by Itachi saves him from Tobi (Itachi kills Shisui 6 years before the story starts + 4 years Shippuuden training time: 10 years -> the exact time to refresh Shisui's eye)]
Tobi tries now to get Itachi with the help of Sasuke, but Sasuke kills Itachi. This makes Sasuke to the new target for Tobis plan. (Still assuming that he needs a new body all 15-20 years, he gets pressure now, because his current body was overtaken in the 3rd War, which lays back 17 years) He needs Sasukes body! And cooperates with him for that reason.



> What's with the Eye of the Moon Plan? Tobi and Madara are obviously not the same person?!?



Back when Madara lived, he and the Elder Son made a contract, because they could benefit from each other: Madara was clearly stronger than other Uchihas, so he would be a perfect body for the Elder Son, who urgently needed one. Madara needed more power to beat Konoha, so he gave his body to the elder son and let him control his moves. At that point of time the both of them created the Eye of the Moon Plan.



> How can Madara awaken the Rinnegan? Why does Nagato posses the Rinnegan?



The Rinnegan originally was awaken by the Elder Son himself. Shortly before Madara's body was going to die, he and the elder created the moons eye plan. The elder left Madara's body, but gave the Rinnegan to him, so he would be able to revive him later, with his own Rinnegan. (reason why Madara awoke the Rinnegan shortly before he died)
Madara died, and the elder son took a new body. He planed to revive 
Madara and together fulfill the moonseye plan. 
Nagato got the Rinnegan in the 3rd Ninja World War. At exactly the same time Obito died. When Tobi took Obitos corpse to life on, there could be a coherence. Maybe Obito's body was to weak to hold the Rinnegan. It was a dead body. So Nagato should conserve the eyes until Madara is powerful enough to get them back.
Nagato used the revive jutsu for Konoha, but luckily Madara was revived by Kabuto, so they are united now and can fulfill the plan.
When he takes back the eyes from Nagato, Tobi says, that he gave it to him once and now takes it back (He is the older son of Rikudou-> got the eyes of Rikudou), as well as that Nagato was the third Sage of the six Paths (Rikudou being the first, and he being the second for having the eyes of Rikudou)



> Why is Tobi afraid of the revived Madara, when they are mates?



Because it's one of his former bodies, at that moment he hasn't got the Rinnegan, so he is still weakend. (still weak body of Obito, eventhough he may be about 30 years now) Therefore his "former body" Madara is stronger than he is, and may be able to either expose his identity or even defeat him. Furthermore he is afraid, because everybody knows now, that he is not Madara.



> Why does he wear a mask, if he is actually not a character, known by any protagonist?



He uses Obito's body at the moment. Obito's body is well known to atleast some people.

*At last some Tobi quotes:*



Tobi says to Konan, that the winner of the clash between Uchiha and Senju is the one, who focuses on the future. That's Tobi, because he fights the Senju, since they exist and earns experience, which will make it possible for him to surpass them.



Tobi says to Kabuto: "They [nagato's eyes] were mine to begin with." -> Prime Father of Uchiha, who got the eyes by the RS


If you have any questions to this theory, I would be happy to answer them  Thank you for your attention


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## NW (May 2, 2012)

*Concrete Proof That Tobi May In Fact Be Uchiha Obito [ACTUALLY READ THE OP!]*

Okay, I know many don't think Tobi is Obito. Therefore, i shall give ultimate, definitive, undeniably incredible proof that the masked man, is in fact, Uchiha Obito.

Firstly, the big "Tobi Reveal" is only exciting and climactic, if the readers AND the characters in the manga, recognize the man behind the mask. This will create a huge amount of shock value and will come to wonder how Uchiha Obito came to be Tobi. Since Tobi's identity has been hidden so long, it makes sense that we should be shocked by whoever it is. Plus, we, the audience, and the characters in the manga, should recognize him. This will create emotional trauma in the characters. Now at this point I guess people will be saying, "Well, Naruto won't recognize Obito!" True, however, there are no logical candidates to be Tobi that Naruto would recognize anyway, so that argument is invalid. Plus, I think it would work better if Naruto doesn't recognize Tobi's true identity, because this symbolizes Tobi and Naruto's clashing ideals, not whether Naruto recognizes him or not. As for who will recognize him, Kakashi, obviously, Lol.

Since Obito was originally an exact parallel to Naruto, an evil Obito would therefore make the best final villain(besides Sasuke)for Naruto. Plus, what would be the shock of it being someone we don't instantly recognize? I mean, if it IS Obito, recognition should be easy as half his face should be crushed and half should be fine.

A common argument against the Obito theory is "Why would Obito turn evil? He was good!" Well, my answer to that is, of course we don't know WHY he is doing this. If we did, that would be a give away of him being Tobi. His motivation will likely be revealed AFTER the reveal of him being Tobi.

Another thing: go to Naruto chapter 515 and go to page 3. it is a color page with the Konoha Eleven in war uniforms. Looking above Naruto is an enlarged picture of Tobi's head/mask. If you look carefully through the eyeholes, you will see that under the right side of his face(the side with his sharingan) there are wrinkles/scars and on the other side, no such wrinkles/scars are visible. Now why would Kishi show that deep into one of his mask holes, and not the other? 

Don't believe me? Here's the link: here

Something else that's suspicious is that Kishi has never explained how Rin died or how Kakashi got his mangekyo, when he could have easily have had Kakashi explain how he got mangekyo when he first got it and tell how Rin died in the databook. We are missing a major flashback! And we will most likely get it eventually, but it has to occur at a time that makes sense and has something to do with what's happening around it. Tobi being Obito, would make the most sense to be what triggers this flashback.

And, in regards to Tobi's mask I find it strange how he picked orange of all colors, especially since very few characters in this manga wear orange. You'd think he would choose a more threatening color. It seems more like a personal preference if you ask me.

Here's one more thing. You know how Kishi very often incorporates Japanese mythology into his writing, right. Well, here's a cool little piece of information that I found on a site:

"--------------Mythology in Japan-----------------
First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, il'll keep it short, so bear with me:

Notes on Izanagi: As you know, the God(Kami) Izanagi created the three gods Amaterasu(Sun God), Susanoo(Fighting God) and Tsukoyomi (Moon God) by wiping dirt from his eye's and nose, which he got when traveling in the underworld yomi and witnessing its horror (Lost his wife).

Manga relevance: Izanagi created those three gods while experiencing something terrible, which correlates to Mangekyo sharingan activating when experiencing something horrible. 
With MS you will then be able to use these three abilities.

Rinnegan: Rinnegan obviously comes from the term Rinne, which revolves the 6 forms of death and rebirth, the worlds constant struggle continues struggling with no escape but one: Enlightment!
You may only escape this terrifying struggle by finally understanding the world and all 6 paths, you will finally find absolute peace.
Which is called Nehan. So will we see some Nehan action in in the ending for this manga? Maybe.

Notes on Kamui: Kakashi has shown no ability to use these three techniques, but the ability Kamui, which relates to the term "god" itself. 
Why? Possible answers are that he isn't an Uchiha or because he didn't get MS through horrible means, or something else entirely.

Notes on Tobi:He has not shown the ability to use Amaterasu and Co. Which means he hasn't got MS, but then how is he gonna accomplish the Moon's Eye Plan without Tsukuyomi? His reason for Sasuke?
Or does he have MS, but only the ability Kamui like Kakashi? Why? Is he not an Uchiha either or is there perhaps another reason?

Why do i tell you this? Because by examining old myths and symbols, we might predict the outcome of the manga or identities. 
Did you know of the myth of the 8 headed snake Orochi that got killed by Susanoo? Or the myth of Jiraiya the toad hermit that was in love with Tsunade the slug princess?etc.


Now the interesting part:
In japanese prehistory there are a lot of myths and symbols, and i present one in particular.

Symbol behind one open, one closed eye:
Ancient figures are often depicted with a right eye open and a left one closed, it means "change", light and darkness, as the open eye means full moon and the closed eye means new moon.
The lunar cycle was the only long term means of observing time.So characters that have one eye symbolize change and time, darkness and light.
(Remember Kamui, space/time jutsu)

There are several Japanese figures with two faces pointing away from each other, one side depicting a right eye open, a left wounded eye with a diagonal cut, sometimes crying.
The other face either has no real face depicted with eyes at all, or simply a close left eye.
These one open, one closed eye figures all show spirals on the sides of their heads or on other body parts.

Now, i don't think i must point out the resemblance to Kakashi and his left vertical wounded eye, and to Tobi's spiral mask.
Tobi originally only showed one eye, of course this was intended symbolism of the Moon and in my opinion, the "change" in Obito. What was very interesting, was Tobi using Izanagi with his left eye, closing it forever.
Also the fact that they both show Space/time abilities, while both having one eye showing, is an amazing coincidence. 

When remembering the MS ability Kamui, they might indeed share another plain of MS power than Madara, Itachi and Sasuke. A form of special MS, only achieved through shared grieve and by sharing the sharingan. Not by killing your best friend, but by something else.
Source:
----
Japanese prehistory: The material and spiritual culture of the Jomon period.
written by Nelly Naumann." 

Now, here some more stuff that proves that Obito is probably the most logical and dramatic choice for Tobi: 

  Back in part 1, itachi told sasuke in a flashback that there was a third Sharingan user. Now, we all now that he was talking about Tobi, which means that Kishi would have had Tobi's identity set from the start. Now, who was already created by Kishi at that time, who is a plausible Tobi candidate? Obito. If Tobi is Kagami or one of those sons or anyone introduced way after him, then Kishi would have talked about them more. Obviously Kishi had to have Obito in his mind since we already knew kakashi had his sharingan. I think that Kishi intended Obito to be the main villain from the beginning. If it were someone like Kagami or the sons or something, why not mention them sooner or talk about them more often.

There's got to be a reason that gaiden and Tobi's first apearance are seperated by the Gaara rescue arc. And tobi and obito are both shown to be clumsy in their first apearances. Also, who the hell else besides Obito would be able to pull off a silly act like that? All these people can't explain why Tobi's space-time only comes from his right eye. And why his mask is suspiciously the same color as Tobi's mask, insisting a similar color preference. 

Also, Tobi wore his akatsuki ring on his left hand, while obito held his Kunai with his left hand, this could mean that they're both lefties.

When kakashi was dying after his battle with pain, he was remembering Obito and thinking how he broke his promise and couldn't save Rin. This could be part of obito's motive. it could also be why kakashi said everyone close to him was dead. it's because Obito keeps killing them all to get revenge for him not protecting Rin. Combined with his hatred for war and being crushed by a huge boulder, I could see Madara being able to corrupt him and make him turn evil. Also, remember that sharingan glare he gave Kakashi? these things are called foreshadowing. Authors use it all the time, guys.

LINK: here
LINK: here
LINK: here

And, here's another example of foreshadowing: 
LINK: here

Why would kakashi randomly mention that he broke his promise to protect Rin? Kishi had to be hinting at something.

And we've already seen bits of the left side of his face in these panels and it doesn't apear to have any wrinkles/scars:
LINK: here
LINK: here

In the first one of those links, why would Kishi draw those wrinkles/scars on one side but not the left?Maybe he was hinting at something?

Plus, Kishi can be very obvious sometimes, like how minato was obiously Naruto's dad. So, the same might hold the same for Tobi being obito.

Obito also fits the best thematically. For example: a running theme in this manga is for students to surpass their mentors. Thematically, it would make sense if Obito surpassed his. At least in terms of Space-time ninjutsu. Here are some examples of when Tobi's space-time ninjutsu was stated to be greater than Minato's:
LINK: here
LINK: here

And also, obito was an exact paralel to Naruto. He had naruto's color scheme of orange and blue except reversed. Now, why would kishi make Obito so like naruto? Because an evil Obito would make a great antagonist and anti-theses to Naruto. think about it. 

So, there's my take on Tobi being Obito. Hope you enjoyed. 

I am gratefull to anyone who managed to read this all the this. (After all, if you can't read a group of paragraphs, God only knows how you'll read a simple chapter book)


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## Nara Tami (May 2, 2012)

the biggest questions to ask is not why the motive?, but why does he need the mask and why does he need to keep his identity a secret? for these reasons i cant see him being one of the sage of six paths sons. he would take of his mask and nobody would recognize him, plus is the name madara really more intimidating than one of the sons. Obito makes some sense, but Tobi appears to be much older than Obito possibly could be in Nine-tails attack and Kisame flashbacks. Maybe Izuna, but once again nobody wonder be like oh shit its Izuna. I dont think kishi has given enough clues yet, or they have been so inconspicuous that no one noticed.


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## Crystaltiger (May 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I've just figured out that it would be illogical for Tobi to be ANYONE besides Obito. Back in part 1, itachi told sasuke in a flashback that there was a third Sharingan user. Now, we all now that he was talking about Tobi, which means that Kishi would have had Tobi's identity set from the start. Now, who was already created by Kishi at that time, who is a plausible Tobi candidate? Obito. If Tobi is Kagami or one of those sons or anyone introduced way after him, then Kishi would have talked about them more. Obviously Kishi had to have Obito in his mind since we already knew kakashi had his sharingan. I think that Kishi intended Obito to be the main villain from the beginning. If it were someone like Kagami or the sons or something, why not mention them sooner or talk about them more often.
> 
> There's got to be a reason that gaiden and Tobi's first apearance are seperated by the Gaara rescue arc. And, tobi and obito are both shown to be clumsy in their first apearances. Also, who the hell else besides Obito would be able to pull off a silly act like that? All these people can't explain why Tobi's space-time only comes from his right eye. And why his mask is suspiciously the same color as Tobi's mask, inssiting a similar color preference.
> 
> ...



That he didn't introduce people, when he said that there was another sharingan user doesn't mean that he didn't thought of creating such a character. But of course your agumentation says that it's Obito's *body* in each case. It's still possible that he has been controled.
But nevertheless good point friend ;D


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## Crystaltiger (May 2, 2012)

Nara Tami said:


> the biggest questions to ask is not why the motive?, but why does he need the mask and why does he need to keep his identity a secret? for these reasons i cant see him being one of the sage of six paths sons. he would take of his mask and nobody would recognize him, plus is the name madara really more intimidating than one of the sons. Obito makes some sense, but Tobi appears to be much older than Obito possibly could be in Nine-tails attack and Kisame flashbacks. Maybe Izuna, but once again nobody wonder be like oh shit its Izuna. I dont think kishi has given enough clues yet, or they have been so inconspicuous that no one noticed.



Elder son in obitos body -> they mustn't recognize obito -> mask


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## Talis (May 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> I've just figured out that it would be illogical for Tobi to be ANYONE besides Obito. Back in part 1, itachi told sasuke in a flashback that there was a third Sharingan user. Now, we all now that he was talking about Tobi, which means that Kishi would have had Tobi's identity set from the start. Now, who was already created by Kishi at that time, who is a plausible Tobi candidate? Obito. If Tobi is Kagami or one of those sons or anyone introduced way after him, then Kishi would have talked about them more. Obviously Kishi had to have Obito in his mind since we already knew kakashi had his sharingan. I think that Kishi intended Obito to be the main villain from the beginning. If it were someone like Kagami or the sons or something, why not mention them sooner or talk about them more often.
> 
> There's got to be a reason that gaiden and Tobi's first apearance are seperated by the Gaara rescue arc. And, tobi and obito are both shown to be clumsy in their first apearances. Also, who the hell else besides Obito would be able to pull off a silly act like that? All these people can't explain why Tobi's space-time only comes from his right eye. And why his mask is suspiciously the same color as Tobi's mask, inssiting a similar color preference.
> 
> ...


You've forgotten the most important detail, the rocks behind Tobi lol.
Anyways i never followed the manga back then but i heard that this was exactly in the time line: When Kakashi was on Gai's Back, Deidara was on Tobi's back which pretty much hints us to something, and there was 1 more thing but i forgot it.


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## Klue (May 2, 2012)

Edo Madara knows who Tobi is, they had a plan that Tobi didn't follow completely.

Edo Madara died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan, and when he was first revived, noted that the "brat" Nagato finally grew up. If Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan, then all of this information indicates that Madara died during Nagato's early childhood.

Nagato was born shortly before or during the Second Great Ninja War, many years before Obito's own birth. If Tobi is Obito, then he could not have schemed with Madara nor given Nagato the Rinnegan or lead Yahiko into forming Akatsuki.

Akatsuki was also created before Obito was born.

With that said. Is it possible that Tobi recovered Obito's right eye which is responsible for Tobi's Space/Time abilities?

Definitely possible.

And who knows, maybe he is using other Obito body parts. But even if Tobi stole Obito's face, arm, scalp (), he still isn't the real Obito.


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## Yachiru (May 2, 2012)

Obito forever <3


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## nadinkrah (May 2, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Rin negan.



ooooooooooo.

How do you explain the battle between him and Minato? He didn't know his technique at all.


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## Klue (May 2, 2012)

TobiUchiha111 said:


> Notes on Tobi:He has not shown the ability to use Amaterasu and Co. Which means he hasn't got MS, but then how is he gonna accomplish the Moon's Eye Plan without Tsukuyomi? His reason for Sasuke?
> Or does he have MS, but only the ability Kamui like Kakashi? Why? Is he not an Uchiha either or is there perhaps another reason?



Shisui's eyes didn't show the ability to use Amaterasu and Co., either. Guess he didn't possess the Mangekyou Sharingan. 



TobiUchiha111 said:


> Notes on Kamui: Kakashi has shown no ability to use these three techniques, but the ability Kamui, which relates to the term "god" itself.
> Why? Possible answers are that he isn't an Uchiha or because he didn't get MS through horrible means, or something else entirely.



Or maybe the Mangekyou Sharingan isn't limited to Amaterasu and Tsukyomi. 

Kakashi uses Kamui, because Obito's left eye Mangekyou had that ability. Just like Shisui's eyes had its own ability. Furthermore, Danzou hinted that Itachi and Sasuke share Mangekyou techniques because they are brothers.


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## Joakim3 (May 2, 2012)

Madara used the same technique Mu used........... Tobi is Madara's doubleganger gone rouge  lol


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## Raventhal (May 2, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> ooooooooooo.
> 
> How do you explain the battle between him and Minato? He didn't know his technique at all.



It could be a natural ability of his eye.  After all Tobi uses eye techniquues as far as we know.  

The time line is the trick with Obito.


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## Tazmo (May 2, 2012)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


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