# Prime Whitebeard vs Prime Garp



## xmysticgohanx (Feb 5, 2016)

High or extreme?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 5, 2016)

High diff or so, maybe very high

I keep fluctuating on this btw


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## gold ace (Feb 5, 2016)

Straight up draw. 

If anything, WB loses due to Garp sinking the whole island/country they are standing on, and WB sinks due to devil fruit while Garp swims to saftey.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 5, 2016)

PS: This is the raw, would be cool if someone could translate it


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## Amol (Feb 5, 2016)

Roger vs Primebeard : 5/5 win/lose Out of 10 matches.
Roger vs Prime Garp : Garp loses all 10 but gives a bitch fight that Roger would remember for next week.
Very very High diff borderline extreme diff.


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## Pyriz (Feb 5, 2016)

Whitebeard wins with extreme diff. 

i agree with Amol aside from the "borderline extreme diff", as I think it's easily a solid extreme diff similar to Luffy vs Lucci. 

Whitebeard and Roger were equal and could go either way. Garp loses almost every time but WB/Roger won't be standing after the fight.


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## Extravlad (Feb 5, 2016)

Whitebeard wins high-mid difficulty.

If Garp could give WB anymore than that then there's no way he wouln't be the WSM by the time of Marineford where WB is weakened by health issues yet Sengoku clearly thinks WB > Garp.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 5, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> chapter 233
> 
> Stephen translated it as:
> 
> ...



I have doubts however because the raw text could also mean whitebeard was the only man who could fight the FORMER pirate king roger or it could mean he was ONCE the only man capable of doing so

The word "かつて"/"Katsute" creates this confusion for me


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 5, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I have doubts however because the raw text could also mean whitebeard was the only man who could fight the FORMER pirate king roger or it could mean he was ONCE the only man capable of doing so
> 
> The word "かつて"/"Katsute" creates this confusion for me



It says "Katsute Kaizoku Ou...." 
It's implied to be used in the context of "back in Roger's day" etc

Therefore WB was the only one able to match Roger in his prime, period.

Garp "cornered" Roger numerous times, but so did Smoker corner and almost kill Luffy many times. We all know that Luffy is an entire tier above Smoker at this point.

Garp is hella strong, but he has never implied to be Roger's match, nor is he hyped as such. The very fact that he himself mentions Rayleigh as another "legend" in the same breath as WB implies that he admits he is below either one. Garp is wanked because he is the protagonists's grandpa, but apart from that he really has no further plot significance that requires him to be PK level of strength IMO

I would put Prime Garp at Akainu level, and not a bit below or above.


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## gold ace (Feb 5, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> . We all know that Luffy is an entire tier above Smoker at this point.



Extremely debateable. Imo Smoker is right next to Luffy in strenght.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 5, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> It says "Katsute Kaizoku Ou...."
> It's implied to be used in the context of "back in Roger's day" etc
> 
> Therefore WB was the only one able to match Roger in his prime, period.
> ...



Garp and Roger nearly killed each other, straight from the horse's mouth.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 5, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Garp and Roger nearly killed each other, straight from the horse's mouth.



Smoker almost killed Luffy too. It proves nothing



gold ace said:


> Extremely debateable. Imo Smoker is right next to Luffy in strenght.



go re-read the chapter again where Doflamingo no diff's Smoker


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 5, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Smoker almost killed Luffy too. It proves nothing



Not really.

Besides, Smokey uses a jitte. He only pinned Luffy, and drained his energy. 

On the other hand Garp is straight up physical brawler. There's no way for him to shortcut near kill against roger, like smoker can with his jitte. He has to physically fight.


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## Samehadaman (Feb 5, 2016)

Whitebeard had some serious disease for years, while Garp seems to have aged as well as anyone. If they were equals in prime, Marineford Garp who was in good health should have the advantage on Whitebeard, but it was portrayed to be the other way around, including by Sengoku who knew them both.

Or to put it another way, when Roger died, Whitebeard got the title of WSM while Garp was still in prime or close.

They were definitely all at the top of the food chain but to me Roger and Whitebeard are still Roger and Whitebeard.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 5, 2016)

Samehadaman said:


> Whitebeard had some serious disease for years, while Garp seems to have aged as well as anyone. If they were equals in prime, Marineford Garp who was in good health should have the advantage on Whitebeard, but it was portrayed to be the other way around, including by Sengoku who knew them both.
> 
> Or to put it another way, when Roger died, Whitebeard got the title of WSM while Garp was still in prime or close.
> 
> They were definitely all at the top of the food chain but to me Roger and Whitebeard are still Roger and Whitebeard.



Mihawk is called the World's strongest swordsman (exact same kanji used, except for kenshi vs otoko in whitebeard's title) 

Yet, plenty of people think they're equal, and some even think Shanks is stronger.

Another thing: Garp being a physical fighter means he loses more power than Whitebeard does, because physical stats decline more, while devil fruit abilities remain similar. So relatively speaking, they should have had a similar decline all things considered


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## Samehadaman (Feb 5, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Mihawk is called the World's strongest swordsman (exact same kanji used, except for kenshi vs otoko in whitebeard's title)
> 
> Yet, plenty of people think they're equal, and some even think Shanks is stronger.




If you don't acknowledge stuff like that this thread is pointless. Nobody is coming up with scientific proof either way. Portrayal, titles and health disadvantage are as good an argument as any.


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## gold ace (Feb 5, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Smoker almost killed Luffy too. It proves nothing
> 
> 
> 
> go re-read the chapter again where Doflamingo no diff's Smoker



Call me when Doffy "no diffs" an 100% Smoker. Not a smoker who fought against both law and vergo.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 5, 2016)

Samehadaman said:


> If you don't acknowledge stuff like that this thread is pointless. Nobody is coming up with scientific proof either way. Portrayal, titles and health disadvantage are as good an argument as any.



I acknowledged Garp and whitebeard's health and devil fruit in my post... or did you mean I should acknowledge something else?


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 5, 2016)

Either way extreme diff.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 5, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> chapter 233
> 
> Stephen translated it as:
> 
> ...



I absolutely love how this panel is exempt from the usual "if it comes later, it overrides previous statements" shtick. 

That quote was illustrated YEARS before Garp and Roger's flashback conversation. Usually it's consensus that when it comes to conflicting or contradictory statements in manga, the one most recent is considered valid.

But for some god knows reason when it comes to this panel that is suddenly void.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 6, 2016)

Extreme diff primebeard


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 6, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> I absolutely love how this panel is exempt from the usual "if it comes later, it overrides previous statements" shtick.
> 
> That quote was illustrated YEARS before Garp and Roger's flashback conversation. Usually it's consensus that when it comes to conflicting or contradictory statements in manga, the one most recent is considered valid.
> 
> But for some god knows reason when it comes to this panel that is suddenly void.



yeah I know, people keep using it, but I kinda want to see the truth behind it... especially since Oda is a author who's remarkably consistent, and a master of foreshadowing even for things that happen years before


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## Kai (Feb 6, 2016)

WB extreme diff. 

The highest achievement one can hope fighting Roger or WB is a draw, and only they could do that to one another.


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## Dunno (Feb 6, 2016)

Garp gives him high diff or so. Whitebeard and Roger were the two undisputed WSM.


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## monkey d ace (Feb 6, 2016)

Roger/WB > Shiki/garp > sengoku/rayleigh


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## Finalbeta (Feb 6, 2016)

Prime Fightbeard extreme diffs


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## Bernkastel (Feb 6, 2016)

To me Roger ~ WB ~ Garp so it could go either way.

Strongest pirates and strongest marine...rivalry implies equality/extreme diff fights.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 6, 2016)

I'd love to hear some reason for the high diff answers

I have a certain inkling what  the only [flimsy] reasoning is 

That good ol' panel from 10 years ago

possibly a mention of the MF WSM debacle


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## Vengeance (Feb 6, 2016)

Garp received hype as having been in the same ballpark as Roger back in the days, but nonetheless Whitebeard has been the sole and apparently undoubted WSM after Roger's death, so he wins. Very high - extreme difficulty.


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## Amol (Feb 6, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> I'd love to hear some reason for the high diff answers
> 
> I have a certain inkling what  the only [flimsy] reasoning is
> 
> ...



Shame I can't rep you.


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## trance (Feb 6, 2016)

Goes either way. Leaning towards Newgate.


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## Orca (Feb 6, 2016)

WB high diff.

- WB was the WSM presumably after Roger's death with Garp himself referring to him as the king of the seas
- Shiki didn't have anywhere near the opinion of Garp as he had of Roger
- Sengoku didn't have anywhere near the opinion of Garp as he had of Whitebeard.
- WB received just way better hype/portrayal/feats at MF.

There's way more evidence for Roger/WB being exceptional then there is for Garp being up there with them which is basically based on one unclear statement.

Cnet's translation of that statement is that "We've fought to the death many times". This statement can also be interpreted as that Roger and Garp fought several times in serious battles to the death but doesn't necessarily mean Garp nearly killed him. Anyone got stephen/Viz's translation for this? Would like to see this.

Now some people might be thinking that why do I try so hard to find different meanings in Rogers statement. It's simply because there's way too many evidemce for Roger and WB being a level above then the other way around. To me it's clear Oda wanted us to see Roger and WB on a different level. That's why WB was put on life support. That's why he was repeatedly shown to have weakened a lot. Oda wanted to make ambigous just how strong Roger was by showing much weaker version of his equal that was WB still doing amazing things. Putting Garp up there defeats the purpose of this especially when he doesn't have as much hype behimd him.


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## Beast (Feb 6, 2016)

lol, the fanfic in this thread is strong.

Roger's words> Buggy's. 

Did Oda tell you guys that WB got the WSM title after Roger's death? Is there a panel i've missed out or have you guys got Oda's number on the Dlow?


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 6, 2016)

Luffee said:


> WB high diff.
> 
> - WB was the WSM presumably after Roger's death with Garp himself referring to him as the king of the seas
> - Shiki didn't have anywhere near the opinion of Garp as he had of Roger
> ...


Was posted earlier in the thread (seems to go well with what Roger says later)



> Whitebeard is... he is...
> A legendary "MONSTER" who was once the only man who could ever match the Pirate King Roger!!!
> HE IS WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE MOST POWERFUL PIRATE IN THE WORLD!!!!
> THE MAN CLOSEST TO THE "ONE PIECE"!!!!
> ...


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## Finalbeta (Feb 6, 2016)

Bernkastel said:


> To me Roger ~ WB ~ Garp so it could go either way.
> 
> Strongest pirates and strongest marine...rivalry implies equality/extreme diff fights.



Cool story but Strongest Pirate will always be > Strongest Marine


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## Bernkastel (Feb 6, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Cool story but Strongest Pirate will always be > Strongest Marine




Well i lean more towards WB for sure...but Garp certainly has a chance of winning ..i'd say 6/10 WB wins...


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## Canute87 (Feb 6, 2016)

No idea what kind of fighter roger was.


It might not be a simple transition even if whitebeard and roger were equals.


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## Orca (Feb 6, 2016)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Was posted earlier in the thread (seems to go well with what Roger says later)



I meant the translation for what Roger said to Garp.


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## Kaiser (Feb 6, 2016)

High. Maybe very high, but definitely not extreme. He was undoubtely the strongest according to Buggy, so there shouldn't be any ounce of doubt, something that exist in the extreme case


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## Beast (Feb 6, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> High. Maybe very high, but definitely not extreme. He was undoubtely the strongest *according to Buggy, so there shouldn't be any ounce of doubt*, something that exist in the extreme case


 
The same Buggy who has been lying throughout the whole series?


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## TheWiggian (Feb 6, 2016)

WB high high - extreme diff.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 6, 2016)

Ask yourself if Sengoku (a bureaucrat fatty) can hold down an enraged Whitebeard. 

No? 

Didn't think so


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## Finalbeta (Feb 6, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Ask yourself if Sengoku (a bureaucrat fatty) can hold down an enraged Whitebeard.
> 
> No?
> 
> Didn't think so



Sengoku can hold off a pissed DD, only during his best day of Prime though


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## xmysticgohanx (Feb 6, 2016)

Luffee said:


> I meant the translation for what Roger said to Garp.



oh snap my bad

what's the chapter and page?


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## Orca (Feb 6, 2016)

xmysticgohanx said:


> oh snap my bad
> 
> what's the chapter and page?



Ch: 551 Pg: 5


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## Gohara (Feb 6, 2016)

Prime Whitebeard wins with around high difficulty, IMO.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 6, 2016)

Luffee said:


> I meant the translation for what Roger said to Garp.




This is the Raw for Garp and Roger's Talk: 




Bottom right speech bubble.

This seems to be what they're saying: おれとお前は何十回と殺し合いをした仲だろう (I think)

It means they were nearly killing each other dozens of times.


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## Kaiser (Feb 6, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> The same Buggy who has been lying throughout the whole series?


Sorry but i'm not going to discuss around the number thousand rule people create to excuse Garp's level comparatively to people clearly placed above him on this forum


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 6, 2016)

>clearly placed above him


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## A Optimistic (Feb 6, 2016)

No one can defeat Prime Whitebeard in a fight.

Only Roger can stalemate him.

Garp obviously loses.


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## Orca (Feb 6, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> This is the Raw for Garp and Roger's Talk:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can read that?


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## Kaiser (Feb 6, 2016)

> Buggy(aka crewmate who followed Roger's adventure): The only only one who could tie with Roger was Whitebeard

Number1 excuse: He is a comedic character who shouldn't be taken seriously 

> Whitebeard became the World Strongest Man infront of Garp after Roger's death
> Whitebeard was still known as the World Strongest even after losing more strength due to illness

Number2 excuse: But Garp doesn't aim for World Strongest Man title. 

> Garp: We angered the ruler of the seas

Number3 excuse: Marines can't rule seas, so it doesn't matter... Ignoring how Doflamingo placed them as potential candidates 

> Shiki(a Roger hater) mentions that marines are too weak to capture Roger
Number4 excuse: Ignore 

> Shiki(below Whitebeard and Roger) fought both Garp and Sengoku to the point of destroying half marineford

Number5 excuse: Sengoku wasn't needed
Ignoring the portrayal around it 

Could go on like this, but i'd leave it at it to not anger the fanbase


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 6, 2016)

Luffee said:


> You can read that?



very poorly, you can ask turrin though, he's a translator lol


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 6, 2016)

Another case of someone refusing to listen to reasoning and letting the discussion boil down to and consist of strawmanning, ignoratio elenchi, and furtive fallacies.


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## Orca (Feb 6, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> very poorly, you can ask turrin though, he's a translator lol



Already pmed him


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## Kaiser (Feb 6, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> Another case of someone refusing to listen to reasoning and letting the discussion boil down to and consist of strawmanning, ignoratio elenchi, and furtive fallacies.


Well i said that there were people(was referring to Whitebeard or Roger namely) placed above Garp, yet you laughed at my opinion as if it was wrong. What were you expecting?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 6, 2016)

Luffee said:


> Already pmed him



Ahh good


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## Canute87 (Feb 6, 2016)

Ava said:


> No one can defeat Prime Whitebeard in a fight.
> 
> Only Roger can stalemate him.
> 
> Garp obviously loses.



I wonder if Garp ever fought Whitebeard.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 7, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> > Buggy(aka crewmate who followed Roger's adventure): The only only one who could tie with Roger was Whitebeard
> 
> Number1 excuse: He is a comedic character who shouldn't be taken seriously
> 
> ...






Exactly. I don't know how delusional you'd have to be to dispute all this evidence


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 7, 2016)

You know you've screwed up when hismajestymihawk agrees with you


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## Yuki (Feb 7, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> You know you've screwed up when hismajestymihawk agrees with you





Naa, that's just Vlad.

When it's not about swordsmen hismajestymihawk is ok.

Tis why he is no longer on my ignore.

He also knows what he does is wank, he admits it.

Vlad however... yea...


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 7, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Exactly. I don't know how delusional you'd have to be to dispute all this evidence



All of these "points" can be pretty logically picked apart though.


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## Typhon (Feb 7, 2016)

Chrollo saved the thread. 

Buggy statement> Roger statement apparently


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## Dunno (Feb 7, 2016)

Typhon said:


> Chrollo saved the thread.
> 
> Buggy statement> Roger statement apparently



Truth >>> Opinion
Author statement >>> Character statement.

Also, Buggy's and Roger's statements aren't contradictory.


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## Sherlōck (Feb 7, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> > Buggy(aka crewmate who followed Roger's adventure): The only only one who could tie with Roger was Whitebeard
> 
> Number1 excuse: He is a comedic character who shouldn't be taken seriously
> 
> ...



You know your argument is shit when you can pick it apart yourself.


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## Finalbeta (Feb 7, 2016)

Whitebeard shows Garp what being as strong as the Pirate King means


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 7, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Whitebeard shows Garp what being as strong as the Pirate King means



getting nearly killed by garp?


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 7, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Whitebeard shows Garp what being as strong as the Pirate King means



I guess I was wrong. I remember you being one of the good ones like Ichi


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## Extravlad (Feb 7, 2016)

Garp is not giving Prime WB extreme diffs let alone pushing him to a tie.

Wake up guys, an ill WB was still stronger than a healthy Garp at Marineford.

Prime Garp is what Prime WB would've been if he hadn't ate the Gura Gura.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Feb 7, 2016)

That abhorrent and frankly disappointing post there is as ridiculous to me as Law > Zoro is to you

except in both of those circumstances, I'm right


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## Orca (Feb 7, 2016)

Garp is more comparable to Rayleigh or Yonko.

Let alone to Roger or WB


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## Extravlad (Feb 7, 2016)

No you're obviously wrong, not only it is stated that WB was the only man that could fight on par with PK Roger  but it is also sated by Garp's best friend that WB is the world's strongest man.

Garp was weaker than Prime WB and Roger.

Prime Garp is also weaker than Old Whitebeard by the way.



> Garp is more comparable to Rayleigh or Yonko.


True but he'd still win 10 times out of 10 vs Shanks,Bigmom or Kaido.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 7, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> Number1 excuse:
> > Whitebeard was still known as the World Strongest even after losing more strength due to illness



Is this looking like an excuse ? Marco specifically says that WB they know is different.


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## Beast (Feb 7, 2016)

Garp didn't get involved in MF, because WB would have been Fucked in the fucking face like his FM.


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## Beast (Feb 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Now, Garp surely overpowered Marco but let's not make that overrate and bullshit, Marco was surely fine, no sign of losing his consciousness and he didn't even bleed. Garp is superior for sure, but he isn't beating Marco or nerfed WB without getting into a trouble.
> 
> Garp also failed to defeat pre-TS Teach and his crew despite the fact Sengoku was there, let's not overrate old Garp.


Garp's step grandson was in danger, so i doubt he was going for the kill with that shot, as he was seen hesitating and Sen-kun told him he didn't need to get involved because of family matters.

Garp> Marco> BB


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## Beast (Feb 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Yeah I guess that's why BB become a Yonko shortly after the war and Gorousei considered him powerful as other Yonko captains before time skip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't that image just say Marco>= BB 


Garp> BB
Yonko teach is post TS which could be made an argument for.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 7, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Didn't that image just say Marco>= BB
> .



Can you read ?

He says ''Perhaps Marco could stop him''.... Do you know what it means the word of ''perhaps'' ?


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## Beast (Feb 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Can you read ?
> 
> He says ''Perhaps Marco could stop him''.... Do you know what it means the word of ''perhaps'' ?


After all BB did in MF, they still thought Marco could still beat him more times than not... Marco>= BB (it's not as bad now right?)


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## Raiden34 (Feb 7, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> After all BB did in MF, they still thought Marco could still beat him more times than not... Marco>= BB (it's not as bad now right?)



You think Marco is somehow weak or something ? He stalemated with Akainu and the other Admirals, of couse they would consider him with ''perhaps'' but that ''perhaps'' was wrong, Marco didn't stop BB, and BB becomes a Yonko shortly after.

Which means BB was even more powerful than they think. BB > Admirals and Marco.


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## Beast (Feb 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> You think Marco is somehow weak or something ? He stalemated with Akainu and the other Admirals, of couse they would consider him with ''perhaps'' but that ''perhaps'' was wrong, Marco didn't stop BB, and BB becomes a Yonko shortly after.
> 
> Which means BB was even more powerful than they think. BB > Admirals and Marco.


Did i say Marco was weak? He didn't stalemate with any admiral bar kizaru which mostly off screen.

They name people who COULD not people that WANTED to stop him. 

The yonko were named but they didn't stop Teach so, Pre TS BB is PK level?


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## Gin (Feb 7, 2016)

rip freechoice


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## NUMBA1TROLL (Feb 7, 2016)

Prime WB high end of high diff.


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