# Midora vs Narutoverse



## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

Location: Ichiryuu vs Midora (Final Fight)
Intel: Full
Prep: None (Everyone has a full stomach & fully rested)
Restrictions: BFR

Can Midora solo the Narutoverse?


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## Brightsteel (Mar 11, 2015)

Pretty sure, he stomps. Being faster, having Hungry Tongue, and Minority World and whatnot.....


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> Pretty sure, he stomps. Being faster, having Hungry Tongue, and Minority World and whatnot.....



He really can't..

Toriko verse is not yet at that speed to run circles around the God tiers of naruto at starting distance, They also lack abilities to touch ghost like Hagoromo or deal with Edo tensei considering You don't need the caster to be conscious or even be alive for the edo tensei to work.

The god tiers can send him to another dimension too, to deal with him
or the summon clan reverse summoning him to their place or Obito and Kakashi using kamui on him. Hiraishin could also deal with him the only restriction it had by the end of the series is Minato having a contact with a character once with him and he can either send you away or port you next to him.

High tiers like nagato, Hiruzen and Itachi also have attacks that bypasses his superior durability via soul sealing/stealing.

he also lacks the ability to ignore or stop genjutsu.

and in this scenario it is the whole verse against him.. 1 of those hitting would make him lose this fight.


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## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Pretty sure, he stomps. Being faster, having Hungry Tongue, and Minority World and whatnot.....


Midora does not have Minority World. That is Ichiryuu's technique.


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## Brightsteel (Mar 11, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> Midora does not have Minority World. That is Ichiryuu's technique.



I know....he copied it from him. That's how he stopped the Gourmet Corps building from falling, and caused the flowers to grow on Ichiryu's grave.

@Shade0180:

Oh. Didn't know that. o,o;


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> Midora does not have Minority World. That is Ichiryuu's technique.



Midora copied it

There are like two people in naruto who can get past hungry space

Everyone else dies either in the initial attack or after accidentally stumbling into an invisble death line


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> There are like two people in naruto who can get past hungry space



I could name 9 that can.

Naruto due to sensing the lack of chakra on the space that hungry space passes by
Kakashi with his kamui
Obito with his Kamui
Hagoromo for being a ghost
Minato's hiraishin
Kaguya's dimension/space travel ability
Zetsu moving underground
Tobirama's Hiraishin
Muu moving underground
Every edo tensei since they can reform


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> I could name 8 that can.
> 
> Naruto due to sensing the lack of chakra on the space
> Kakashi with his kamui
> ...




No
No
Yes
Yes
No
That puts her in a worse position
No
No


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

Zhen Chan said:


> No
> No
> Yes
> Yes
> ...



You said get pass. 

Anything that can bypass dimension or has some type of spatial traveling ability can do that which are people I named with exception of Nardo. he can avoid it since he had shown to sense chakra in nature and hungry space would eat those along its path


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> Toriko verse is not yet at that speed to run circles around the God tiers of naruto at starting distance



That's where you're wrong, toriko top tiers are now Ls-☻relativistic.


Don't care about the outcome, but no one is touching midora or will be able to react.


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

MB inflating Toriko again.  wait till the arc finishes and then we can decide


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> MB inflating Toriko again.  wait till the arc finishes and then we can decide



Dodging 6 relevistic spears casually from 6 feet away is pretty good bro


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> MB inflating Toriko again.☻☻wait till the arc finishes and then we can decide



Inflating what? Bambina dodge 6 ☻near Ls spears, it's confimed. If we go with vitz translation, they're ftl.
No surprise there considering destan did a calc for bambina and it came out ftl.

Though for now, not touching up on viz translation. Toriko top tiers are Ls-☻relativistic.


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## Galo de Lion (Mar 11, 2015)

"I woke up one morning to find that the entire planet had been covered in a layer of omnivorous hair"


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## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

Zhen Chan said:


> Midora copied it


Negatory. Midora figured out how to make it work in his favor after Ichiryuu explained the technique. 





> Minority World (マイノリティワールド Mainoriti Wārudo):  A mysterious power which seems to work on both physical and conceptual  levels, Ichiryu somehow takes the strange minority of micro-scale  particles observed to behave in 'deviant' ways (sometimes in apparent  defiance of physical law) and amplifies and imposes their behavior or  properties on a maximum of 50% (anymore and they become a majority and  the new minority particles take over reversing the effects desired) of  the particles in a structure or organism. This can generate a variety of  effects. Ichiryu's ability to fly, for example, stems from his  manipulation of the minority of his body's atoms which do not  straightforwardly respond to gravity. He imposes their gravity-defying  behavior on the rest of his body's atoms, and thus can fly. The  technique can generate a variety of difficult-to-predict effects as  organisms and even the battlefield itself rapidly lose their properties  or develop new properties completely opposed to their previous ones.  Rocky terrain can suddenly become soft and malleable as its constituent  particles suddenly all start resisting the solidness of their form, for  instance. The most deleterious effects of Minority World are on  living beings however, and strike at both mental and physical levels.  Mentally, even the most confident foe will find their movements and  accuracy thrown off more and more as any tiny minority of unease or fear  comes to overwhelm their mental 'majority' of confidence and strength.
> Meanwhile, within the physical body, Minority World works busily  to increase error rates in vital cellular processes, and gradually turns  the body's systems away from the 'majority' goal of "keeping the body  alive" toward destructive 'minority' behaviors of killing the body, this  can also work in reverse by turning the 'minority' of atoms healing the  body into a 'majority', thus allowing them to completely regenerate at  incredible speeds. Once this effect has taken hold the victim finds that  their body will no longer listen to them, and even their best efforts  to attack will fail or miss inexplicably.
> 
> The technique ultimately  begins to reverse vital bodily functions, from the lungs beginning to  reject oxygen intake to the heart pumping blood the wrong direction,  ultimately leading to death. The technique can only be resisted by  taking advantage of this 'reversal' property.
> ...


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> Negatory. Midora figured out how to make it work in his favor after Ichiryuu explained the technique.☻



You're right but midora copied it. This was confirmed upon jirou visiting ichiryu's grave, midora used ichiryu's power. Can't find the scan atm but the chapter was at the start of part 2 iirc.


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## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

MysticBlade said:


> You're right but midora copied it. This was confirmed upon jirou visiting ichiryu's grave, midora used ichiryu's power. Can't find the scan atm but the chapter was at the start of part 2 iirc.


Please read the quote I posted (especially the bolded blue)


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 11, 2015)

Minority World is a surprisingly complex technique for a mostly straight-forward verse


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## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

He didn't copy it. Midora counteracted it.

Anyway. Back to the original intended debate listed in the OP.


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## Max Thunder (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> I could name 9 that can.
> 
> Naruto due to sensing the lack of chakra on the space that hungry space passes by
> Kakashi with his kamui
> ...




Literally most top tiers can sense the lack of chakra anywhere within range of their eye sight, especially any byakugan or Sharingan user...

This is not a Naruto exclusive ability lol


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

Er Nature chakra can't normally be sense except by the sages.... Normal characters including user of sharingan or byakugan have not shown to see it nor sense it. we even had a camera view of how byakugan can see and they can't see the nature chakra whenever kishi have shown it, The only ones that did are Jiraiya, the toads, the sage snake, Madara after getting hashi's life force, hashirama, Kabuto and minato, that's the chakra I am talking about and the chakra that hungry space would be eating in its pathway...


So I have this one question with Toriko's situation

when did we accept LS claim at face value sure we have a number at Buranchi but coco's spear had none we only know it can fly at LS speed because coco claimed it and everyone just rolled with it.. so I just want to ask when did this started

Because pretty sure there are other anime/manga that claimed the same thing and nobody accepted it.

KHR for 1 at the end of the series
Medaka around the middle before Ajimu
There's a few I forgot the name that has people saying they are moving at ls speed and those weren't accepted too, Iirc

We even threw out 1 from Flame of Recca considering it was done by a machine.



considering we haven't really seen that spear fly at LS speed only claimed to be able to achieve LS speed..

so why did that changed with Toriko?


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> He didn't copy it. Midora counteracted it.





> he copied it from him. That's how he stopped the *Gourmet Corps building from falling*, and *caused the flowers to grow on Ichiryu's grave.*



He copied it, jirou said so and ichiryuu


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## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

MysticBlade said:


> He copied it, jirou said so and ichiryuu


Scans please.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> MB inflating Toriko again.  wait till the arc finishes and then we can decide



So the tail swipe calc isnt accepted either then?


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## Brightsteel (Mar 11, 2015)

@Gibbs:





"That guy...."

"*Ichi-chan's 'Technique'....*"


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## Regicide (Mar 11, 2015)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> So the tail swipe calc isnt accepted either then?


No, it wasn't.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 11, 2015)

Regicide said:


> No, it wasn't.



GM isnt trustworthy enough anymore?


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

☻





> when did we accept LS claim at face value sure we have a number at Buranchi but coco's spear had none we only know it can fly at LS speed because coco claimed it and everyone just rolled with it.. so I just want to ask when did this started



Since whenever it was stated. Just like burnchi's speed, they obviously know how fast they're going or how fast their attacks are. Also, this is shima we're dealing with. We can trust what he puts out, he's very consistent with power portrays within his verse. Coco is also a very good source of information, he doesn't go about talking shit.

Nevermind bambina feats suggest Ls-☻relativistic. The calc pegged it at ftl, other members agreed it was at least ☻relativistic. Bambina dodging 6 near ls spears only confirmed the obvious feat wise.


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> GM isnt trustworthy enough anymore?



The tail calc wasn't accepted because the circumstance of the event of what happened.

GM misunderstood the event that happened in the panel.



> they obviously know how fast they're going or how fast their attacks are.



Because the other series we drop don't right? 

seriously that's double standard


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm just wondering. Since when do we take statements made by the actual character seriously? I have no problem with relativistic-light speed Toriko, but I've seen many other character statements from other mangas thrown out because there's no feats backing them up and/or the statement didn't exactly come from a reliable source, i.e. from a character other than the person actually using the attack.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 11, 2015)

Mappy and Gaoh dodged lasers anyway


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> Because the other series we drop don't right?☻serious that's double standard☻☻!



No, because we have feats that supports they're that fast.

It's not like bambina's casual tail whip didn't happen on panel.


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## Regicide (Mar 11, 2015)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> GM isnt trustworthy enough anymore?


That's.. completely irrelevant.

The calc had no solid timeframe to go off of, hence it didn't fly.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 11, 2015)

Regicide said:


> That's.. completely irrelevant.



> GM
> Irrelevant


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## Regicide (Mar 11, 2015)

It's irrelevant because how trustworthy someone is a tangent that has nothing to do with anything.

The calc didn't have a real timeframe, thus the speed value was bullshit.


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

GM calc wasn't solid enough to be accepted  how do you 
confuse shit like that?

Seriously..


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

How relevant a person is has nothing to do with how accurate their calc is. Well, maybe it does with RH.


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## Alita (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> He really can't..
> 
> Toriko verse is not yet at that speed to run circles around the God tiers of naruto at starting distance, They also lack abilities to touch ghost like Hagoromo or deal with Edo tensei considering You don't need the caster to be conscious or even be alive for the edo tensei to work.
> 
> ...


This pretty much sums up my thoughts in regards to this match. Narutoverse has the hax neccessary to defeat midora and he doesn't have that significant of a speed advantage(He's only faster in reactions.). 

I personally think only ichiryuu could potentially solo cause of minority world hax but even that's debatable since we don't know how much range minority world has nor do we know if it could even counter/negate stuff like dimensional BFR, genjutsu, etc.


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

Honestly whether it's accepted or not doesn't take away from anything.

The feat itself is obviously☻relativistic, bambina being able to dodge 6 near ls spears only confirmed our suspicions regarding that. We don't accept alot of character statement without a cause. Though in the case of bambina's speed. There's really nothing contradicting it, only supporting it.


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## Regicide (Mar 11, 2015)

That sounds awfully like a circle to me.

Tail whip is clearly relativistic because it's supported by the relativistic spears which are supported by the clearly relativistic tail whip.


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

seriously that's your defense.. we are contesting the ls statement too because we don't accept statements altogether or we would have solar system cell.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> seriously that's your defense.. we are contesting the ls statement too because we don't accept statements altogether or we would have solar system cell.



Hence my question about this earlier because it seemed as if everyone was lining up to accept relativistic-light speed Toriko despite it being a statement, which are consistently thrown out for other mangas if they don't have the feats and/or reliable sources backing them up.

Not like I'd have a problem with LS Toriko as it's one of my favorite series.


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## Vicotex (Mar 11, 2015)

funny enough nobody remember Eos Naruto dodging LS attack and also reacted/hit madara's Limbo that was moving at LS


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 11, 2015)

Vicotex said:


> funny enough nobody remember Eos Naruto dodging LS attack and also reacted/hit madara's Limbo that was moving at LS



Nice downplay

Madara reacted to Tsunades LS accelerated punch much earlier in the arc

EoS Naruto and JuubiDara are even faster


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> Madara reacted to Tsunades LS accelerated punch much earlier in the arc
> 
> EoS Naruto and JuubiDara are even faster



That's still downplaying. Haku was making single handed seals at FTL speed stated by kishi.


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## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> @Gibbs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's good and all, but that's not minority world.


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> You realize you're going in a circle, right?Tail whip is clearly relativistic because it's supported by the relativistic spears which are supported by the clearly relativistic tail whip.



We've accepted alot of character statement regarding their speeds, I've already argue my case.

The funny thing is we've accepted the claim before in the pass. I remember alot of posters talking about wait till someone dodge it.

Now that someone dodged it, we don't accept it? Really now?
Other posters in the blog already voiced their opinions why it should be accepted, it's shima for crying out loud the guy Iisn't some retard.

If we don't accepted coco claims there's really nothing stopping us from going with ftl goah, or nosh, sani and mappy dodging lasers.

Toriko in the pass feat wise shown the feats of being potentially ftl-☻relativistic.
Now coco's claim about his spears being near ls  iffy?


There's nothing that contradicts coco's claim, if anything coco's claim destroys the notion that goah can be ftl.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 11, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Not like I'd have a problem with LS Toriko as it's one of my favorite series.



We'll see if it happens when they explore the Final Land

Never know what batshit insanity Shima might cook up


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## Vicotex (Mar 11, 2015)

MysticBlade said:


> We've accepted alot of character statement regarding their speeds, I've already argue my case.
> 
> The funny thing is we've accepted the claim before in the pass. I remember alot of posters talking about wait till someone dodge it.
> 
> ...



Both verse have the potential to go FTL.
Got that?


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> it's shima for crying out loud.



Nobody cares about author intent. and we didn't accept any claims of FTL or LS until the source had shown that. Claims are just claims until further noticed..

Every fiction has a potential to be FTL. it's up to the author to write that level of power. It doesn't mean we will give leeway until it was shown on panel..


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## Haro (Mar 11, 2015)

I know time frames are of importance but the feat is still relativistic. Are you seriously saying the toriko crew and bambina were just chillin while the shock wave traveled? Come on guys.

The calc was trash but it was still rel at least


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

We don't do shit like that...

The best known showing is always used for cases like this.

they're stuck at the highest number until someone gets a proper calc for it..

same reason why some verse are stuck in low digit mach even though there are showing of character outright blitzing each others attack or even outpacing/outrunning an attack because calc stacking is tend to be avoided..


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> I know time frames are of importance but the feat is still relativistic. Are you seriously saying the toriko crew and bambina were just chillin while the shock wave traveled? Come on guys.



It is, that part nobody has a problem with. They just want to discredit coco's claims. 

Well I guess nobody has a problem with ftl goah. 
Coco's claim was the only thing preventing goah from being ftl, now that nobody accepts coco's claim.  Ftl toriko mid tiers


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## Brightsteel (Mar 11, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> That's good and all, but that's not minority world.



.....Yet it proves that Midora copied Minority World....which he used to make the plant grow....it's pretty apparent.....


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

Ftl toriko mid tiers it is 

On topic everybody gets blitzed.


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

MB''s getting delusional. 

I think we broke him.


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## Vicotex (Mar 11, 2015)

^in your dreams


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## Gibbs (Mar 11, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> .....Yet it proves that Midora copied Minority World....which he used to make the plant grow....it's pretty apparent.....


It proves Midora copied a technique. It never was specified to be Minority World.


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> goah dodged orbital lasers (yes Iit was accepted)
> came out ftl.
> everybody accepted coco's statement to prevent goah's ftl feat.
> now we don't accept coco's statement. 

> ftl mid tiers
> nothing contradicts goah 's feat other than coco's statement. 
> mappy dodged lasers
>nosh dodged lasers.
> sani dodged lasers. 

Oh looky looky, that's alot of supporting feats.

Ftl mid tiers are set in stone folks


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## Regicide (Mar 11, 2015)

I seriously don't know what he's even saying anymore.


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## Brightsteel (Mar 11, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> It proves Midora copied a technique. It never was specified to be Minority World.



>Ichiryu only used two techniques in their fight (Chopsticks and Minority World)

>Setsuno says that nothing should grow.

>Something grows.

>The exact opposite of what Setsuno said. Or the minority.


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> seriously that's your defense.. we are contesting the ls statement too because we don't accept statements altogether or we would have solar system cell.


Character statements are accepted when they are in line with reason

Hence light speed haku is fucking stupid while light speed bambina isn't


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> Hence light speed haku is fucking stupid while light speed bambina isn't



and you're the judge of stupid and whatnot? 

no seriously.

if this is going to fly for toriko it should fly to everything else because we tend to avoid being double standard or we would be the same as CBR and that other shitty forum


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> and you're the judge of stupid and whatnot?



Yes you peasant. Bow your head to royalty




shade0180 said:


> no seriously.
> 
> if this is going to fly for toriko it should fly to everything else because we tend to avoid being double standard or we would be the same as CBR and that other shitty forum



Its called deductive reasoning


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> I seriously don't know what he's even saying anymore.☻



Playing dumb are we? Can't think of something to argue against ftl Ls goah huh?

Goah's feat of dodging orbital laser came out ftl-ls. 
Posters argued outlier when really there wasn't none. 

Posters adopted the idea it was a outlier based on coco statement.  This was the reason we accepted coco's statement. But now seeing as we don't accept his statement anymore, there's nothing contradicting goah's calc.


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> Its called deductive reasoning



And you are basing your reasoning on what? 

I'll answer that question. The reasoning is from a statement that haven't shown any proof.

which was done by both sources

but we should accept one of them because you think this series is not dumb and the other one shouldn't be accepted because you think it is dumb.

double standard at its finest, as I pointed out earlier.
seriously this LS replies are getting dumb zhen.


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## Regicide (Mar 11, 2015)

MysticBlade said:


> Playing dumb are we? Can't think of something to argue against ftl Ls goah huh?


Dat projection.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Mar 11, 2015)

Here i thought Gaoh was high MHS cause he dodged it from a fair distance

Guess MysticBlade learned me something new then


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> And you are basing your reasoning on what?
> 
> seriously this LS replies are getting dumb zhen.



You cant be this fucking stupid and still breathe on your own

Lets walk through this

1. Lightspeed haku
- out of line with observed feats before and since
- would be a massive outlier to the tune of several order of magnitude
Toss that shit out

2. Solar sytem cell
- out of line with observed feats
- inverse square law is still a thing
- originated from a verse where people commonly say wrong shit despite knowing it is wriong "No its impossible"
Toss that shit out

3. Lightspeed mold spear mk 1
- from a verse with far above average character credibility
- out of line with power scale
 - outlier
Toss it out

4. Lightspeed mold spear mk 2
- powerscale redefined
- Now falls within possible parameters
- repeated feat
- Plausible
- exact numbers unlikely


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## shade0180 (Mar 11, 2015)

> - repeated feat


What repeated feat

also Haku is not the only instance in nardo we dropped an LS claim

DB as early as part 1 had kaioken and it had redefined its power scaling multiple time and that kaioken haven't fly even once even during DBZ period.

and there are other series which had more basis than toriko we didn't accept because statement aren't enough proof.

seriously possibility or what not, this accepting 1 character statement isn't just going to fly unless that spear is shown to fly at ls.


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

You missed the point, we can tell whether a statement is valid or not.

Well I guess we throw out kaoken because it was statement too huh?

Like i said others have given their opinions regarding the claim and they agreed upon it (check the blogs toriko is ☻relativistic.)

Well you bring up a lot of verse yet the claim fell flat on it's faces proven to be false. 
You're argument is we didn't accept these other verses claims of ls, why should we regarding toriko? Double standard? 

No, we had valid reasons to discredit them.

Coco's claim is more creditable.

Firstly, coco said his spear is made from something similar to mold spores. If yoy didn't know, mold spores have the highest acceleration in nature. Coco stated that when thrown, it accelerates near the speed of light. 

This was not a baseless statement, it's actually scientifically proven to be true. Which further provides a more credit to his statement. 

So yes, coco's mold spears are legitimate.


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## MAPSK (Mar 11, 2015)

MysticBlade said:


> You missed the point, we can tell whether a statement is valid or not.
> 
> Well I guess we throw out kaoken because it was statement too huh?
> 
> ...



>LS IRL mold

lolno. Bad example. While I agree with relativistic Toriko, some of the fastest acceleration in nature actually belongs to the nematocysts of the box jellyfish, which can fire barbs containing deadly neurotoxin in 700 nanoseconds.


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## MysticBlade (Mar 11, 2015)

> LS IRL moldlolno. Bad example. While I agree with relativistic Toriko, some of the fastest acceleration in nature actually belongs to the nematocysts of the box jellyfish, which can fire barbs containing deadly neurotoxin in 700 nanoseconds.



I know, was referring to the fastest thing in nature, not irl mold spores being that fast. Just coco's pseudo scientific explanation regarding the speed of acceleration.


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## SunRise (Mar 11, 2015)

There is difference between crediblity of different claims.


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## ShadowReaper (Mar 11, 2015)

Defeats the whole verse.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 11, 2015)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Here i thought Gaoh was high MHS cause he dodged it from a fair distance
> 
> Guess MysticBlade learned me something new then



It is, mach 1000 - ~LS.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> and there are other series which had more basis than toriko we didn't accept because statement aren't enough proof.



Care to name a few?


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Care to name a few?



Saint seiya


Oh wait


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## Blαck (Mar 11, 2015)

Lightspeed arguments?  Time to reopen the Ls rayleigh case? :ignoramus


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## Sablés (Mar 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> What repeated feat
> 
> also Haku is not the only instance in nardo we dropped an LS claim
> 
> ...



Feats or gtfo is such an outdated method of reason, not that the reverse is exactly positive either.

Character statements and feats are just sources of information. Feats are simply stronger evidence and less likely to be fallible; doesn't mean you disregard the former altogether.

Use your brain.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 11, 2015)

Seriously, i want to know of these verses that have more of a basic for lightspeed thank Toriko that were unaccepted by the OBD.


Please, explain.


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## Sablés (Mar 11, 2015)

khr had a feasible way of achieving lightspeed but was ultimately unaccepted.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 11, 2015)

OP had kuma, rayleigh, kizaru, etc.
Bleach had three people doing %c - c - arguably ftl feats to name a few.


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

Liquid said:


> khr had a feasible way of achieving lightspeed but was ultimately unaccepted.



How did your fingernails not fall off typing those three letters


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 11, 2015)

So does Toriko in the fact that the mold spears are said to achieve that speed due to spores.


Now, i don't read KHR because let's be real, it was fucking shit. But did action that plied they were lightspeed contradict the verse in anyway.




ZenithXAbyss said:


> OP had kuma, rayleigh, kizaru, etc.
> Bleach had three people doing %c - c - arguably ftl feats to name a few.



A thread isn't complete without Zenith shitposting.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 11, 2015)

Haters gonna hate.



> But did action that plied they were lightspeed contradict the verse in anyway.


It's the last fight.


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

There were also blackholes involved


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 11, 2015)

I don't see any reason to accept coco's words as any more reliable than kuma's, rayleighs, kizaru's, etc. 
Also, the defense that "because it's shima" is disgusting crap.


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## Sablés (Mar 11, 2015)

won't hear any argument from me - KHR was utter garbage


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 11, 2015)

Zhen Chan said:


> There were also blackholes involved



Wait, are you talking about the pseudo black hole feat? 

Fuck outta here.


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 11, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Wait, are you talking about the pseudo black hole feat?
> 
> Fuck outta here.



Iirc the narration gave the scientific definition for a black hole too


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 11, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> I don't see any reason to accept coco's words as any more reliable than kuma's, rayleighs, kizaru's, etc.
> Also, the defense that "because it's shima" is disgusting crap.



Beside the fact that it was stated twice?

Besides the fact that attacks in Toriko usually leave orbit in less than seconds?

Because the fact that Coco gave an explanation behind it based on scientific reasoning of mold spores in real life accelerating near those speeds?


Zenith please, the statements in One Piece do night hold nearly as much weight as Toriko.



Zhen Chan said:


> Iirc the narration gave the scientific definition for a black hole too



How much     ?


----------



## Iwandesu (Mar 11, 2015)

>implying we don't accept kizaru as light speed on at least travel speed 
lolzenath iguess


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 11, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Beside the fact that it was stated twice?


It's not like we don't have those in op, oh wait we do.
LS claims have been made at least twice by kuma and kizaru alone.


> Besides the fact that attacks in Toriko usually leave orbit in less than seconds?


It's not like we don't have those in op, oh wait we do.
Fujitora's meteors have actually travelled far more than bambina's tail swipes.
In fact, ~ thrice the distance from what i can remember.
Does that make op relativistic?





> Because the fact that Coco gave an explanation behind it based on scientific reasoning of mold spores in real life accelerating near those speeds?


I don't think there's nothing more as scientific as light being light speed.


> Zenith please, the statements in One Piece do night hold nearly as much weight as Toriko.


Ikr.



iwandesu said:


> >implying we don't accept kizaru as light speed on at least travel speed
> lolzenath iguess



There's actually a split regarding that as far as i can tell.
I remember fujita saying that either Kizaru is LS every time he use his df(attacks and such) or not.
While others are saying that he is only ls in travel speed.

And iwan pls.
I've been debating ls kizaru before you even joined nf.

Also while we are at it, the three dragons in ft have travelled just as much as bambina's tail swipe at the very least. (Based on the continent scaling)
Does that make them relativistic?
Though they are probably quad digits with an assumed timeframe.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 11, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> It's not like we don't have those in op, oh wait we do.



Oh god you're terrible at this.



> LS claims have been made at least twice by kuma and kizaru alone.



We know that chuckles. Except in Kuma's case there was no reason to believe his statement, as he gave no reasoning other than his DF power which is magical. Which made it unacceptable.

With Kizaru, people *do* accept that he can travel at lightspeed, same with Enel. It's just that nobody believe that their combat speed and reactions are that high.



> It's not like we don't have those in op, oh wait we do.



Not on the same level and you fucking know that.



> Fujitora's meteors have actually travelled far more than bambina's tail swipes.
> In fact, ~ thrice the distance from what i can remember.



I'm not even gonna get into how the hell you're assuming the meteor even travelled a greater distance, instead i'm just gonna remind you that we aren't talking distance here sonny, we're talking speed.

Bambina's tail swiped travelled across the entire Toriko planet (which is bigger than One Piece's) and destroyed a satellite in the time it took for the Four Heavenly Kings to notice they hit the ground due to gravity.



> Does that make op relativistic?



No it doesn't. In fact the example you listed above has an entirely different factor in that it involves the speed of Fujitora's Devil Fruit, while in Toriko it was raw physical movement.



> I don't think there's nothing more as scientific as light being light speed.
> 
> Ikr.



Shitposting again.

In case you don't know, we take this shit with a case by case bias. Just because one series is full of shit doesn't mean we have to apply the same logic to all series.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 12, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Oh god you're terrible at this.


How cute. 




> We know that chuckles. Except in Kuma's case there was no reason to believe his statement, as he gave no reasoning other than his DF power which is magical. Which made it unacceptable.


Uwotm8?



> With Kizaru, people *do* accept that he can travel at lightspeed, same with Enel. It's just that nobody believe that their combat speed and reactions are that high.


That would be fine except the fact that there are people blatantly reacting to his df light.



> Not on the same level and you fucking know that.


Oh well you're right.
Bambina's tail swipe is not on the same level as fujitora's meteor feat. 





> I'm not even gonna get into how the hell you're assuming the meteor even travelled a greater distance, instead i'm just gonna remind you that we aren't talking distance here sonny, we're talking speed.



Is this a serious post?
How do you think speeds are gotten?
Especially when you've got two feats with context of minimal timeframe.
Actually op's would even have a smaller timeframe considering that law only managed to bring out a room a few dozen meters wide.
Also, LS got bambina's feat to be 14000km while taco got fujitora's distance to be 40000+km.


> No it doesn't. In fact the example you listed above has an entirely different factor in that it involves the speed of Fujitora's Devil Fruit, while in Toriko it was raw physical movement.


Red herring.
It doesn't matter considering that there are people blatantly outspeeding and reacting to his meteor. E.g. Doflamingo.




> Shitposting again.



Concession accepted.


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## trance (Mar 12, 2015)

Doesn't Midora stomp...like, hard?


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## YoungMasterDoflamingo (Mar 12, 2015)

Midora Solos.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 12, 2015)

> We know that chuckles. Except in Kuma's case there was no reason to believe his statement, as he gave no reasoning other than his DF power which is magical. Which made it unacceptable.



let me just step right in here and say this is a retarded argument.

Coco's mold spores are literally exactly as dumb if not dumber than Kumas explanation for his powers 

Kuma: Doesn't bother to explain

Coco: Explains but his explanation is completely wrong

which is worse do you think?


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## Vicotex (Mar 12, 2015)

we still have LS limbo clone


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## Tir (Mar 13, 2015)

Man, it is saddening to see how far the OBD have fallen. 
Character statement is nowadays treated as something indisputable just because 'supposedly the character knows what he's talking about. Guess ftl HST and FT is about to be a thing now~

well, what's next?


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## LazyWaka (Mar 13, 2015)

We don't treat them as indisputable. We just roll with them provided nothing contradicts them and they aren't blatant hyperbole or made by someone who isn't mentally stable.


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## Tir (Mar 13, 2015)

I know that Waka. But you should take a look at all these. Its all about, 'coco knows his shit' thingy.

I know that Waka. But you should take a look at all these. Its all about, 'coco knows his shit' thingy. 
planet busting and ftl hst and ft incoming~ I'm so happy~


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## Iwandesu (Mar 13, 2015)

>Implying kaguya is not a planet buster already


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 13, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Uwotm8?



What would you call an ability that could push pain out of a body.




> That would be fine except the fact that there are people blatantly reacting to his df light.



Supernovas got flat out blitzed by Kizaru. You know, the people on the same level as Zoro who reacted to the cannons at Thriller Bark.

Are you going to claim Kizaru is FTL now?




> Oh well you're right.
> Bambina's tail swipe is not on the same level as fujitora's meteor feat.



Please try.




> Is this a serious post?
> How do you think speeds are gotten?
> Especially when you've got two feats with context of minimal timeframe.
> Actually op's would even have a smaller timeframe considering that law only managed to bring out a room a few dozen meters wide.
> Also, LS got bambina's feat to be 14000km while taco got fujitora's distance to be *40000+km.*



First of all, bolded is retarded since we didn't even see exactly where the meteor came from.

Second, what timeframe are you even using for the One Piece feat? IIRC Law didn't exactly span the room right away.



> Red herring.
> It doesn't matter considering that there are people blatantly outspeeding and reacting to his meteor. E.g. Doflamingo.



Your point? Reacting to a meteor from space is different than reacting to an attack point blank.




> Concession accepted.



Just stop.



Nightbringer said:


> let me just step right in here and say this is a retarded argument.
> 
> Coco's mold spores are literally exactly as dumb if not dumber than Kumas explanation for his powers



Are you trolling with right darthg? Kuma had no explanation other than "i push air at the speed of light"



> Kuma: Doesn't bother to explain



That, and his feat contradicts anything shown in One Piece after that point. Best example being Zoro, who reacted to the cannons as well as the Supernovas getting schooled by Kizaru.



> Coco: Explains but his explanation is completely wrong



Google, darthg. Coco was talking acceleration, based on the speed of actual mold spores. He never claimed once the spears were lightspeed, only that they can reach close to it, which isn't even an exact number given to be honest. Then you factor in how this technique was enhanced by Enbu, the other 3 king's cells and how casually Bambina dodged it and lightspeed is not a stretch.



> which is worse do you think?



Lightspeed bear strikes are dumber for obvious reasons.



Tir said:


> I know that Waka. But you should take a look at all these. *Its all about, 'coco knows his shit'* thingy.
> planet busting and ftl hst and ft incoming~ I'm so happy~



Is there a reason to assume he doesn't? Again like waka said, as long as nothing contradicts their statement we roll with it. Nobody in Toriko was seen to dodge the spear other than Bambina, whose a top tier. Not to mention mid-tiers alone already get mach 30,000 scaling from Tengu Buranchi


Why would you even bring the HST & FT up in that last remark by the way? I'm curious. It makes you sound butthurt


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## Regicide (Mar 13, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> First of all, bolded is retarded since we didn't even see exactly where the meteor came from.


Came from space, did it not?

, which isn't really out of place given the larger than real life planet and atmospheres in general being wonky in fiction.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 13, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Are you trolling with right darthg? Kuma had no explanation other than "i push air at the speed of light"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's my point tho, Kuma doesn't bother to explain why he moves at light speed he just says he does.

Mood spores accelerate to roughly 25ms we can call them that speed if you'd like. The point I'm making here is that while kuma offers no explanation which therefore casts suspicion on his claim, coco makes a straight up invalid and fallacious explanation. Which of these is more damning to you?

Is it better or worse to tell you that 1+1 = 3 without explaining why or to explain why that is 'true' using bogus maths?

You haven't explained why a light speed bear Palm is any more or less dumb than a light speed mold spore.


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## SunRise (Mar 13, 2015)

Holy crap  - I need this ass-heal cream because I have so much butthurt for unlimited autis m in this thread. 

We go *case by case* basis for statements. OBD accepts relativistic spear not because we love Toriko or something but because this case is literally fundamental - nothing contradicts it - everything only supports it. it is just objectively magnitudes more reliable than other statements - if not - just bring them and try to prove their legitness. 

But for starters you should feel the difference between *random hype from random fuck contradicting whole series* (because that is what you try to force here as I understood ) and statement:
*stated by *reliable* person who knows what he say
*who didn't randomly spouted something but explained *how* his technique actually works
*said it *twice* 
*even had *basis* for that
*nothing in the series contradicts it - everything only supports it - only *top-tiers* being able to dodge it while already mid-tiers are mach *30000* 
*a lot of *supporing* feats

*Nightbringer*, maybe because Coco bothers to explain his technique with some detailes and similar stuff happens irl even?

Autis m in this thread kills me.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 13, 2015)

> Your point? Reacting to a meteor from space is different than reacting to an attack point blank.


Ugh, did you just missed the part where dofla cut the meteor when it's basically at his face after law deflected it to his side? 



> What would you call an ability that could push pain out of a body.


Are you seriously implying that all ability that makes one "at this speed" as something impossible?
Sounds like hypocrisy to me considering you approve hinokage to be ls because his ability lets him to move at that speed. 
Besides the fact that that reason is pretty laughable and holds no weight in the first place.



> First of all, bolded is retarded since we didn't even see exactly where the meteor came from.


Ahh yes it came out magically from thin air. 



> That, and his feat contradicts anything shown in One Piece after that point. Best example being Zoro, who reacted to the cannons as well as the Supernovas getting schooled by Kizaru.


Association fallacy.
It's pretty clear zolo is at the top echelon of the supernovas, only a bit behind luffy, law, and kidd.
I'd even say he is probably stronger than law at the time given his feats.
Bounty is not always a good measure of strength considering that kidd had a higher bounty compared to luffy because of his evil deeds.
Besides it's not like PIS _do not ever happen in OP._ which is like 99% of Marineford arc. 
So while it may actually be an outlier for zolo at that point in time, that could give us a good grasp about the top tier's and above's speed in verse.
Especially when we have at least two people at the top of the food chain in verse to claim such.



> Are you going to claim Kizaru is FTL now?


You know that would at best make zolo relativistic ~ or really near ls.
Ofc while fictional light could go ftl, if there's no solid evidence for it like moving faster than light would in panel or something, then it remains at that ballpark even though if weaker characters could move at nearly that speed.
A good example would be zebra, you'd think he'd hit anyone relevant with his sonic speed attacks?



> Not to mention mid-tiers alone already get mach 30,000 scaling


Hahaha, no.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Mar 13, 2015)

ban toriko vs hst threads


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 13, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Ugh, did you just missed the part where dofla cut the meteor when it's basically at his face after law deflected it to his side?



I must have because i clearly don't recall that shit happening, let alone it being a means to imply OP characters are lightspeed. So what exactly is your point of even bringing it up?



> Are you seriously implying that all ability that makes one "at this speed" as something impossible?



Please humor me, what exactly is his DF ability then? 



> Sounds like hypocrisy to me considering you approve hinokage to be ls because his ability lets him to move at that speed.
> 
> Besides the fact that that reason is pretty laughable and holds no weight in the first place.




Nice fallacy you got going there. Did you miss the part where i made it clear that Hinokage's ability was an author statement and a upgrade to an ability that already made it almost impossible to react to him?

And i will be the first to admit that skills are reality warping, because they are. I'm not trying to pass off an ability as something else unlike you.




> Ahh yes it came out magically from thin air.



Again, try harder.




> Association fallacy.
> It's pretty clear zolo is at the top echelon of the supernovas, only a bit behind luffy, law, and kidd.
> I'd even say he is probably stronger than law at the time given his feats.
> Bounty is not always a good measure of strength considering that kidd had a higher bounty compared to luffy because of his evil deeds.
> ...



>Association fallacy

Zenith are you serious? Do you really believe that Zoro is so far above the supernovas in power that his reaction speed and movement speed is many, *many* time faster than their while he was injured?


That makes no damn sense and you know it.





> Hahaha, no.



>Denying Tengu's ability now



I take it you don't read Toriko.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 13, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> ban toriko vs hst threads



There is no debate. Toriko stomps the HST. The problem is people who for some reason assume that we do not take statements on a case by case bias and believe that just because the OBD doesn't accept their favorite verse to be lightspeed over flimsy statements ridded with contradictions that no other series statements should be accepted as well regardless of the situations that leads to them being more plausible.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 13, 2015)

Does the speed thing even matter?

I'm pretty sure Midora is faster even if we don't take Coco's statement at face value.


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2015)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Does the speed thing even matter?
> 
> I'm pretty sure Midora is faster even if we don't take Coco's statement at face value.



Mach 30k to Naruto's Mach 4k, I think.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 13, 2015)

> I must have because i clearly don't recall that shit happening, let alone it being a means to imply OP characters are lightspeed. So what exactly is your point of even bringing it up?



Also, you're actually the one who brought that up mister. 



> Please humor me, what exactly is his DF ability then?


Something that can push deflect something apparently at light speed?



> Zenith are you serious? Do you really believe that Zoro is so far above the supernovas in power that his reaction speed and movement speed is many, many time faster than their while he was injured?


Eh, given what they did the whole sabaody arc, that's probably true.
Also Looks like you missed a lot of what i posted. 
If you actually have nothing to say about them then don't quote.



> >Denying Tengu's ability now


Keyword: very specific ability that lets him reach that kind of speed.
It's not like that isn't the case anyways.
Mach 30k have always been scaled only to top tiers and above since day1.



> I take it you don't read Toriko.


I did.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Does the speed thing even matter?
> 
> I'm pretty sure Midora is faster even if we don't take Coco's statement at face value.



Yeah, he is.        .


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 13, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Also, you're actually the one who brought that up mister.



I asked for the scan you just posted, but that's the only thing i asked for. I stated that One Piece didn't have anything on the level of Toriko. You tried to argue that the meteor was lightspeed because of the distance it traveled (which is unconfirmed) and a timeframe using Law's room, as a way to imply it does. But even with all of that, it's still not on the same level featwise so your debate was irrelevant from the start.



> Something that can push deflect something apparently at light speed?



Yes, we know that. But why should we take it at face value. Is there a method behind it.



> Eh, given what they did the whole sabaody arc, that's probably true.
> Also Looks like you missed a lot of what i posted.
> If you actually have nothing to say about them then don't quote.



Urouge knocked a PX around and Apolo blew Kizaru up. If anything their feats are better than Zoro's.

And i ignored your quote because it was irrelevant. Here why are reasons why since you want to know so badly.



> I'd even say he is probably stronger than law at the time given his feats.



>baseless comment that nobody can confirm or deny.



> Bounty is not always a good measure of strength considering that *kidd had a higher bounty compared to luffy because of his evil deeds.*



>baseless comment that nobody can confirm or deny. And on the topic of bounties, Luffy has did deeds to go against the WG directly and his bounty was still lower, and while i agree it's not a sure fire way to gauge a person's ability it damn sure doesn't imply that they are weak.



> Besides it's not like PIS do not ever happen in OP. which is like 99% of Marineford arc.



>Is you pretty much confirming it's a outlier.



> So while it may actually be an outlier for zolo at that point in time, that could give us a good grasp about the top tier's and above's speed in verse.
> Especially when we have at least two people at the top of the food chain in verse to claim such.



>is you completely ignoring the fact that it wasn't a top tier that preformed the feat, but a mid tier. Which is what makes it a outlier in the first place who was never seen to be able to move that quick after that point.



> Keyword: very specific ability that lets reach that kind of speed.



Tengu's feat was done in a arc where the main characters were still having trouble with level 100/200 monsters, even then you'll be hard pressed to argue he could blitz any of the kings, let alone post-GW.




> I did.




I really wish you said you didn't. Would make more sense.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 13, 2015)

Midora destroys them. Hell probably even current Toriko destroys them.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 13, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Midora destroys them. Hell probably even current Toriko destroys them.



I would actually debate for Naruto in that one.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 13, 2015)

I don't see what's stopping kaguya from BFRing midora right from the getgo. He's only faster than her in reactions and it's no where near enough to blitz.


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## Freddy Mercury (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> I don't see what's stopping kaguya from BFRing midora right from the getgo. He's only faster than her in reactions and it's no where near enough to blitz.



What is Hungry Space


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 13, 2015)

> Apolo blew Kizaru up


Using some kind of weird bomb, that didn't even hurt him anyway.



> You tried to argue that the meteor was lightspeed because of the distance it traveled


Wat?


> Fujitora's meteors have actually travelled far more than bambina's tail swipes.
> In fact, ~ thrice the distance from what i can remember.
> Does that make op relativistic?


Never have i once mentioned or implied op to be Light speed because of those meteors in my op.
Jesus christ.



> Urouge knocked a PX around


Yeah as if that amounts to anything considering the px was fine after all urouge did.
And was already down after a single laser.



> it's still not on the same level featwise


Ahhh yes, OP clearly had the better showing in that regard unless you've had your brain cells fried somewhat this past few days.
You know? Farther distance, even with the same timeframe op's would still have better speed from that criteria.
It's not really rocket science, fred.
The only real reason that calc got ftl was because of some obviously fallacious timeframe, so better take that off your mind soon.

Besides that, it's not like all the supernova's couldn't react to kizaru.

Case in point, basil was able to, though he is far too slow to actually do shit.



> Tengu's feat was done in a arc where the main characters were still having trouble with level 100/200 monsters, even then you'll be hard pressed to argue he could blitz any of the kings, let alone post-GW.


Doesn't really matter considering he'd do jack to any of them.
Plus a sneeze from toriko would probably decimate his whole body.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> I don't see what's stopping kaguya from BFRing midora right from the getgo. He's only faster than her in reactions and it's no where near enough to blitz.



Midora blitzed Ichiryuu with Hungry Space when he got serious, so he actually _is_ fast enough to blitz Kaguya.


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## Lucy75 (Mar 13, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> What is Hungry Space


Unless I'm forgetting something that only works after midora's tongue has passed through a space and kaguya moves herself to the space where the tongue has been. 

But from the standard distance she can doge the initial attack then proceed to teleport him into the dimension which requires a simple thought from her.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Unless I'm forgetting something that only works after midora's tongue has passed through a space and kaguya moves herself to the space where the tongue has been.
> 
> But from the standard distance she can doge the initial attack then proceed to teleport him into the dimension which requires a simple thought from her.



No, his tounge is what's eating space.
Hungry space is like the trail his tounge has gone through or something from what i can remember.


----------



## Lucy75 (Mar 13, 2015)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Midora blitzed Ichiryuu with Hungry Space when he got serious, so he actually _is_ fast enough to blitz Kaguya.



Woulden't that simply make his attack unquantifiably above mach 30k? I thought in order for someone to blitz someone else here they needed calcs which put them quantifiably faster than their opponent. Kaguya is over mach 4k so to effectively blitz her from the standard 20 meter distance you would need to be over mach 80k. Or has that changed now?


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## Brightsteel (Mar 13, 2015)

> Woulden't that simply make his attack unquantifiably above mach 30k? I thought in order for someone to blitz someone else here they needed calcs which put them quantifiably faster than their opponent. Kaguya is over mach 4k so to effectively blitz her from the standard 20 meter distance you would need to be over mach 80k. Or has that changed now?



Wut....? So he's able to blitz someone who's Mach 30,000....but he can't blitz someone who's mach 4,000? Something seems....off about that.


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## Regicide (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> Woulden't that simply make his attack unquantifiably above mach 30k?


As far as I'm aware.. yes.


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2015)

It would make his speed unquantifiable yes, but not unquantifiable enough to say "he can't blitz someone who's Mach 4k even though he blitzed someone who's Mach 30k" because that'd be a logical fallacy. All it means is that we don't know how fast he is beyond "he blitzed someone who was Mach 30k". We can't pin a number on it, but we know it's faster than Mach 30k. It doesn't mean he suddenly becomes unable to blitz people slower than the guy he was clearly shown blitzing.

So the speed is unquantifiable, yes, but still way above Kaguya's paygrade.


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## Sablés (Mar 13, 2015)

Regicide said:


> As far as I'm aware.. yes.



That'd be retarded.

It'd be an outright denial of feats.


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## Regicide (Mar 13, 2015)

Liquid said:


> That'd be retarded.
> 
> It'd be an outright denial of feats.


Not like it's the first time our fairly inconsistent system of versus debating has been nonsensical.


----------



## Lucy75 (Mar 13, 2015)

I ask because in the past when hst vs hst threads were much more of a thing there were many threads where characters were pitted agianst others who were at speed levels that their opponents have already blitzed/outsped in verse yet they didn't say the match ends in a blitz.

Heck in the recent yama and ichibei vs madara and hashirama thread people wern't claiming the naruto team could blitz even though they are unquantifiably much faster than mach 449 which was already quantiably faster than the bleach team.


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> I ask because in the past when hst vs hst threads were much more of a thing there were many threads where characters were pitted agianst others who were at speed levels that their opponents have already blitzed/outsped in verse yet they didn't say the match ends in a blitz.
> 
> Heck in the recent yama and ichibei vs madara and hashirama thread people wern't claiming the naruto team could blitz even though they are unquantifiably much faster than mach 449 which was already quantiably faster than the bleach team.



Because (a) it goes without saying they'd blitz, and (b) speed was probably equal.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 13, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> I ask because in the past when hst vs hst threads were much more of a thing there were many threads where characters were pitted agianst others who were at speed levels that their opponents have already blitzed/outsped in verse yet they didn't say the match ends in a blitz.
> 
> Heck in the recent yama and ichibei vs madara and hashirama thread people wern't claiming the naruto team could blitz even though they are unquantifiably much faster than mach 449 which was already quantiably faster than the bleach team.



The Naruto team was pretty much on par with the bb that got calced at that speed.

It's more akin to some of the 8 gated Gai vs OP threads where Gai was able to Blitz Juubi jin Madara (mach 4000) yet we still only considered his speed advantage over OP's top tiers marginal at best (mach 2000) and just labeled it a blitz trope.

We should probably do something to clean this up really. I'd recommend a meta thread but we have quite a few of those going as it is.


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## Sablés (Mar 13, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Not like it's the first time our fairly inconsistent system of versus debating has been nonsensical.



yeah but this is even moreso.

Y can blitz Mach xxx but isn't fast enough to blitz Mach XX because reasons? 

Sounds a bit like the inverse usage of the cutting durability clause where if Y tanks a cutting attack that's megatons, they wouldn't have gigaton durability despite the rule suggesting cutting attacks get +1 in DC


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## Regicide (Mar 13, 2015)

I'm not sure I follow the analogy. 

The attack isn't getting stronger, it's just that the energy behind it is more efficiently focused. A character can have a given durability but have higher resistance to concentrated attacks, they're separate stats.

Just that having the former generally means having a similar level of the latter, but not the other way around.

I probably fucked up that explanation somewhere.


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## Sablés (Mar 13, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I'm not sure I follow the analogy.
> 
> The attack isn't getting stronger, it's just that the energy behind it is more efficiently focused. A* character can have a given durability but have higher resistance to concentrated attacks, they're separate stats.*
> 
> ...



So cutting durability is actually a thing?


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## shade0180 (Mar 13, 2015)

holy shit 2 pages after that stupid spear and now we are going to approve blitz trope because it's done in Toriko.


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## Regicide (Mar 13, 2015)

Liquid said:


> So cutting durability is actually a thing?


Sort of? It's more like the ability to take concentrated shit in general, be that cutting, piercing, bullets, etc. Willy calls it "hardness."

Though just because someone has a hardness stat well above what their opponent can dish out with a sword, doesn't mean anything if their base durability isn't enough to tank the energy behind the sword to begin with. 

Similarly, someone that has bullets deflect right off their body won't necessarily be able to take a grenade to the face.


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> holy shit 2 pages after that stupid spear and now we are going to approve blitz trope because it's done in Toriko.



No we're not, shade. Don't put words in people's mouths. Accepting a blitz trope would mean we would be saying Midora is 20x Mach 30k for blitzing someone at that level of speed. All we're saying is that because he blitzed someone who was Mach 30k, he would obviously blitz someone who is Mach 4k. It's not that hard to understand.


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## Regicide (Mar 13, 2015)

I was under the impression that the characters in question were actually faster than mach 4000, but that we can't get a value for that because it would be calc stacking.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 13, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I was under the impression that the characters in question were actually faster than mach 4000, but that we can't get a value for that because it would be calc stacking.



Toriko is no different since the Mach 30000 speed is from a mid tier character.

It's also been established that you need to be _vastly_ faster than an experienced fighter to blitz them in this series. Toriko was able to fight creatures ten times faster than him under high gravity conditions he wasn't used to yet, and that was back when he couldn't even survive in the Gourmet World.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 13, 2015)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Toriko is no different since the Mach 30000 speed is from a mid tier character.
> 
> It's also been established that you need to be _vastly_ faster than an experienced fighter to blitz them in this series. Toriko was able to fight creatures ten times faster than him under high gravity conditions he wasn't used to yet, and that was back when he couldn't even survive in the Gourmet World.



Buranchi wasn't using his mach 30k technique, it's not like he's always that fast.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 13, 2015)

Nightbringer said:


> That's my point tho, Kuma doesn't bother to explain why he moves at light speed he just says he does.
> 
> Mood spores accelerate to roughly 25ms we can call them that speed if you'd like. The point I'm making here is that while kuma offers no explanation which therefore casts suspicion on his claim, coco makes a straight up invalid and fallacious explanation. Which of these is more damning to you?
> 
> ...



>freddie ignored this

concession accepted


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## Succubus (Mar 13, 2015)

Midora stomps so easily


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## Masterblack06 (Mar 14, 2015)

cant he just meteor spice the entire place or would it not do enough damage to the higher ups in the narutoverse


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## Lucy75 (Mar 15, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> The Naruto team was pretty much on par with the bb that got calced at that speed.
> 
> It's more akin to some of the 8 gated Gai vs OP threads where Gai was able to Blitz Juubi jin Madara (mach 4000) yet we still only considered his speed advantage over OP's top tiers marginal at best (mach 2000) and just labeled it a blitz trope.
> 
> We should probably do something to clean this up really. I'd recommend a meta thread but we have quite a few of those going as it is.


There was a calc done which actually made hashirama around 10 times faster than the bomb from what I remember.



MAPSK said:


> No we're not, shade. Don't put words in people's mouths. Accepting a blitz trope would mean we would be saying Midora is 20x Mach 30k for blitzing someone at that level of speed. All we're saying is that because he blitzed someone who was Mach 30k, he would obviously blitz someone who is Mach 4k. It's not that hard to understand.


I don't have a problem with this logic as long as we apply it to all fictions. It seems like it's only being done for toriko. Or at least this is first time I'm seeing it.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 15, 2015)

Lucy75 said:


> There was a calc done which actually made hashirama around 10 times faster than the bomb from what I remember.



That was via calc stack.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 15, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> That was via calc stack.



Which is the same reason mach 200 doesn't fly


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## Regicide (Mar 15, 2015)

There is no calc stacking involved in the mach 200

We just went over this


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## Alita (Mar 15, 2015)

Regicide said:


> There is no calc stacking involved in the mach 200
> 
> We just went over this


Correct me if I'm wrong regi but in order to get mach 200 didn't you have to take a previously accepted calc from a completely different calculation and use it in that calc for the multiplier to calc the new speed? Isn't that calc stacking?


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 15, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong regi but in order to get mach 200 didn't you have to take a previously accepted calc from a completely different calculation and use it in that calc for the multiplier to calc the new speed? Isn't that calc stacking?



Indeed it is


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## LazyWaka (Mar 15, 2015)

Stated multipliers and calc stacking are 2 different things. The very definition of a calc stack is calcing off of another calc. That's not what happened here.


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## Regicide (Mar 15, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong regi but in order to get mach 200 didn't you have to take a previously accepted calc from a completely different calculation and use it in that calc for the multiplier to calc the new speed? Isn't that calc stacking?


What calc for the multiplier

Ichigo can travel a certain distance in a week with his casual shunpo, Ichigo can travel the same distance in half a day at max speed

It's a fucking ratio given straight to us


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 15, 2015)

Regicide said:


> What calc for the multiplier
> 
> Ichigo can travel a certain distance in a week with his casual shunpo, Ichigo can travel the same distance in half a day at max speed
> 
> It's a fucking ratio given straight to us


If your using  the the result of another calc to create a calc it is literally calc stacking

The ratio is fine but you have to apply the ratio to a fresh coefficient


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 15, 2015)

Zhen Chan said:


> If your using  the the result of another calc to create a calc it is literally calc stacking
> 
> The ratio is fine but you have to apply the ratio to a fresh coefficient





I want you to reread this post


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## Regicide (Mar 15, 2015)

Zhen Chan said:


> If your using  the the result of another calc to create a calc it is literally calc stacking


Kay, let's say goodbye to scaling shit to get sizes then.

Since that's stacking too.


Zhen Chan said:


> The ratio is fine but you have to apply the ratio to a fresh coefficient


What the fuck does that even mean?


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## MysticBlade (Mar 15, 2015)

Don't know what the hell's going on in here.

Nobody has provided any evidence against coco's claim other than the usual "we didn't accept this verse claim of ls, we ain't accepting this one".

I obviously don't need to explain why that type of argument falls flat on it's face.



> freddie ignored thisconcession accepted☻



And you seems to ignore the point, coco isn't saying mold spores are near ls.

He's making a contrasts between Irl mold spores having high acceleration to his mold spear which is * made with something similar to Irl mold spores.* He then tells us his mold spear can accelerate to near the speed of light, not the other way around.  

Back to coco's statement, if anyone who reads toriko know.  

Coco's by far the most knowledgeable character thus far within the toriko universe. 

How knowledgeable?

He's considered a genius and pretty much a reliable source of information. 

Does coco's statement contradicts anything speed wise within toriko? No.
We got's tons of feats which points to the likelihood of claimed speeds.

Has anyone dodged it? A top tier with feats superior to the claimed speed.

We have absolutely no reason not to accept his claim, nothings contradicting anything and feat wise.  There's tons of feats that support it.

With all that said, this is a stomp.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 15, 2015)

> Nobody has provided any evidence against coco's claim other than the usual "we didn't accept this verse claim of ls, we ain't accepting this one".



What is burden of proof shifting?



> He's making a contrasts between Irl mold spores having high acceleration to his mold spear which is made with something similar to Irl mold spores. He then tells us his mold spear can accelerate to near the speed of light, not the other way around.



If you don't understand why this isn't proof of anything then there's no reasoning with you.


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 15, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Kay, let's say goodbye to scaling shit to get sizes then.
> 
> Since that's stacking too.
> What the fuck does that even mean?



Do you know what a coefficient is?


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## MysticBlade (Mar 16, 2015)

> If you don't understand why this isn't proof of anything then there's no reasoning with you.



I'm correcting your false understanding on what coco actually said, you're the one saying because mold spores irlaccelerates at 25ms it makes coco claim invalid. That's wrong because coco didn't said any of that, just in case you missed that part of my post.



> He's making a contrasts between Irl mold spores having high acceleration to his mold spear which is☻made with something similar to Irl mold spores.☻He then tells us his mold spear can accelerate to near the speed of light, not the other way around.



Coco didn't say irl mold spores accelerates near the speed of light. He said just like how irl mold spores have high * acceleration * (in case you're confusing speed with acceleration) my poison spear is made with something * similar * but mines accelerates near the speed of light. 

Coco's giving us a pseudo scientific explanation regarding the acceleration of *his* mold spear. 


I'm not using coco's reasoning as proof of his claim. Like I've already pointed out earlier, there's nothing that contradicts his statement. There's ton of feats that support claim speed and on top of that coco's a reliable source of information. 

Unless you can find inconsistencies and prove coco's a lier, there ain't a damn thing you can say against his claim.


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## Vicotex (Mar 17, 2015)

You can also ask thesame dude about the light speed statements in naruto too(that limbo )


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## LazyWaka (Mar 17, 2015)

Vicotex said:


> You can also ask thesame dude about the light speed statements in naruto too(that limbo )



I don't believe that Limbo was ever referred to as light speed (its literally just a clone.)


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## Review Review (Nov 11, 2015)

Man the recent Toriko chapters about Warp Speed... FTL narration and Don Slime literally transverse to space and back in less then a second makes all the Toriko deniers look foolish now


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## Imagine (Nov 11, 2015)

Really dawg


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## Totally not a cat (Nov 11, 2015)

So, what exactly motivated you to create an account just to post in an 8 month old thread?


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## Review Review (Nov 11, 2015)

ooops never knew it was that old lol

my bad the passion within me burned ferociously.... Well at least we have a conclusion now

Midora is clearly FTL


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## ZenithXAbyss (Nov 11, 2015)

Hehe.      Mmmm m.


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## sasykei (Nov 11, 2015)

Naruto characters cant kill ghosts either. Actually Im pretty sure Toriko characters can after eating Pair but anyways... Kaguyas attacks only managed to kill the physical body of Obito. The soul was still fine and dandy.


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## Iwandesu (Nov 11, 2015)

Review Review said:


> Man the recent Toriko chapters about Warp Speed... FTL narration and Don Slime literally transverse to space and back in less then a second makes all the Toriko deniers look foolish now


>less than one second 
You wot ?
No really do we have a stated timeframe ?


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## sasykei (Nov 11, 2015)

Well 0.01 seconds are plenty of time for them to kill planetary threats 8 times over.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 11, 2015)

The mold spear still isn't LS unless I missed a new feat for it


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## ZenithXAbyss (Nov 11, 2015)

It's near ls after accelerating for an unknown period of time.


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## Review Review (Nov 11, 2015)

sasykei said:


> Well 0.01 seconds are plenty of time for them to kill planetary threats 8 times over.



0.01 seconds to conduct at least 10 moves and this is before consuming Pair and this is just the 4HK not Midora


iwandesu said:


> >less than one second
> You wot ?
> No really do we have a stated timeframe ?



okay maybe in a few seconds

since I am comparing it to Bambinas tail whip and Komatsu and Toriko having a convo with one another after the feat without a long duration of waiting time in between the jump and landing


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## Iwandesu (Nov 11, 2015)

Review Review said:


> 0.01 seconds to conduct at least 10 moves and this is before consuming Pair and this is just the 4HK not Midora
> 
> 
> okay maybe in a few seconds
> ...


Nah bro
There is a way to actually quantify how fast he jumped
But context wise it is pretty much impossible to that have been under less than a second
Because the water he jumped through had already freefalled way before he even got outside atmosphere
And that alone takes a couple of seconds


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## SunRise (Nov 11, 2015)

So are we finally done with Coco's claim and nobody brings bs arguments about "other abstract verses and their abstract statements" now anymore?


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## Review Review (Nov 11, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> Nah bro
> There is a way to actually quantify how fast he jumped
> But context wise it is pretty much impossible to that have been under less than a second
> Because the water he jumped through had already freefalled way before he even got outside atmosphere
> And that alone takes a couple of seconds


ah I see


SunRise said:


> So are we finally done with Coco's claim and nobody brings bs arguments about "other abstract verses and their abstract statements" now anymore?



the thing is that Toriko and HXH, etc.... showcase claims and usually back it up without back-pedalling later on compared to hype claims we see in the HST


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## Energy (Nov 11, 2015)

I don't see why Coco's spears aren't LS when they've always impacted in the same panel they were thrown and no one but Bambina was able to even react to them, the statement was made multiple times, the manga is also accurate with its explanations when it goes in detail and we're dealing with one of the smartest guys of the verse here and the viz translation literally says lightspeed, not near lightspeed nor does it say accelerate.

Then there's also the recent ANOTHER FTL feats that were author statements in the manga.


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## Iwandesu (Nov 11, 2015)

> Then there's also the recent ANOTHER FTL feats that were author statements in the manga.


what do you mean?


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## Energy (Nov 11, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> what do you mean?



ANOTHER surpassed the speed of light and created some kind of warp space that makes a safezone backchannel.


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## Review Review (Nov 11, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> Nah bro
> There is a way to actually quantify how fast he jumped
> But context wise it is pretty much impossible to that have been under less than a second
> Because the water he jumped through had already freefalled way before he even got outside atmosphere
> And that alone takes a couple of seconds



ummmm I reread the chapter (343) and the water didn't fall back down (Page 3)

the panel just zoomed out..... plus when Komatsu is talking to Toriko about that impact on page 9 we see some water still in the air


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## King Diablo (Nov 12, 2015)

Midora Rapes.


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