# Individual Akatsuki take on the Sound 4 with Taijutsu



## Nikushimi (Sep 12, 2015)

Like the title says.

*Location:* Chuunin Exams Finals
*Distance:* 5m, surrounded
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-The Akatsuki fight individually and cannot use Ninjutsu or Genjutsu; only Taijutsu. Weapons are allowed. Sasori's puppets are the exception to the weapon allowance; he can only use Hiruko or his true form, where specified respectively. Pain's chakra rods count as weapons.
-The Sound 4 are fighting as a team; they are *NOT* restricted from using their Jutsu.
-Passive Doujutsu abilities are allowed (e.g., Sharingan prediction, Rinnegan vision-sharing).
-Sasori's poison is restricted; his and Hiruko's bodily weapons, however, are not.
-Jiongu is restricted.

*Scenario 2:* Sound 4 are also restricted to Taijutsu (no Nin/Gen). Weapons are banned from both sides (except Hiruko and Sasori's body).

*The Akatsuki:*

1. Konan
2. Deidara
3. Hidan
4. Sasori (Hiruko); if Hiruko is destroyed, match ends
5. Sasori (True)
6. Kakuzu
7. Itachi
8. Deva/God Pain
9. Obito
10. Kisame
11. The Six Paths of Pain


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## Matty (Sep 12, 2015)

*1. Konan:* She is allowed to transform to paper? Or is that ninjutsu? If she is she wins if not she most likely is losing. Even with the transformation the best she can do is run. She has a better chance in scenario 2.

*2. Deidara:* Can't see him pulling it off, not skilled enough in taijutsu and he's vulnerable to all of their attacks

*3. Hidan:* This is tricky. He is far superior to them, and is a CQC expert. The first scenario I see him getting fucked because of tayuya and possibly Sakon/Ukon although their jutsu won't kill him. Kidomaru can hope to lop his head off while he is under genjutsu. In scenario 2 he absolutely murders them all low-dif

*4. Sasori (Hiruko):* Not sure if Hiruko can take this. He has the advantage of being immune to genjutsu and sakon/ukon's jutsu not sure if Kidomaru possesses the strength to break Hiruko. Jirobo certainly does, but it all hinges on Sasori who I wouldn't exactly call a CQC expert (Is he allowed poison??) Scenario 2 he can win but still not sure, Hiruko lacks a lot of offensive power.

*5. Sasori (True):* He should murk them in both scenarios. If he is allowed access to his cable, wings and flamethrowers in the first scenario then Sound 4 have no chance unless Kidomaru snipes his heart cannister from a distance. But seeing as it is full knowledge and 5 Meters away, with his intelligence, he's going for Kidomaru first with the Cable/Wings and then attacking the rest. Scenario 2 I am not sure exactly what he has access to. If he has access to the weapons in scenario 1 it's not even fair, he is going to neg dif them, but if he doesn't I really don't know what happens.

*6. Kakuzu:* Neg difs them in both scenarios. He still has 5 hearts, excellent strength and taijutsu, and good enough speed to hang with Part 2 Kakashi. Scenario 2 is a joke for him

*7. Itachi:* low-mid difs scenario 1, not even funny in the 2nd scenario. He's too intelligent to be caught off guard with full knowledge and tayuya's basic genjutsu

*8. Deva/God Pain* Should low-mid dif both scenarios

*9. Obito:* He is skilled enough to kill them all quickly enough in both scenarios.

*10. Kisame* The best CQC in the akatsuki against the sound 4. Lol should be really awesome to watch. He is a tank and doesn't really have to worry about too much in the 1st scenario. 2nd scenario he murders them

*11. The Six Paths of Pain:* should be an ungodly stomp with shared rinnegan vision and overall numbers. If it isn't a neg dif in scenario 1 it sure is in scenario 2...


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## Alex Payne (Sep 12, 2015)

Blitzstomp, blitz and blitzstomp. Full knowledge destroys whatever chances Sound 4 had to use their tricky abilities at the last moment.


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## Ghost (Sep 12, 2015)

1. Konan loses.
2. Hidan curbstomps.
3. Deidara curbstomps.
4. Hiruko booby trap ggs.
5. Sasori curbstomps.
6. Kakuzu curbstomps.
7. Itachi curbstomps.
8. Deva curbstomps.
9. Obito curbstomps.
10. Kisame curbstomps.
11. Pain curbstomps.


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## Yoko (Sep 12, 2015)

The Sound 4 are only dangerous to Kage level fighters if said Kage-level fighters lack full knowledge on their capabilities and allow them to set-up shop with their unique techniques.  Full knowledge and 5m starting distance means they're likely getting blitzed from the get-go by every person on that list.  Kidomaru and Tayuya won't get a chance to start 120% blindspot sniping or Sound Genjutsu-ing, and nobody will idiotically try to block a bunch from Jirobo either.

Everything that makes the Sound 4 a legitimate threat to upper level fighters is basically taken away / heavily marginalized in this thread.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 12, 2015)

Eh, I think there's only a speed gap between the Sound 4 and actual Kage speedsters. Otherwise, you need solid defensive abilities to simultaneously fend off senjutsu enhanced genjutsu, webs, doton prisons, and being generally outnumbered.

1. Konan - L
2. Deidara - L
3. Hidan - L
4. Hiruko - L
5. Sasori - L
6. Kakuzu - L
7. Itachi - W
8. Deva - W
9. Obito - W
10. Kisame - L
11. Pain - W​


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## Alex Payne (Sep 12, 2015)

Rasengan-training Naruto was within Sound 4 speed class. Rusty drunk Tsunade using only one finger took a giant dump on him. Every Akatsuki member is above that particular finger-wielding Tsunade in everything except strength(and sober taijutsu obviously). Even Konan. 
Or you can use Sound Chunins - with each likely being at least around base Jirobo level in speed(considering they were too much for CE Naruto+Shikamaru+Sakura to beat in an ambush). Asuma murked 8 of them in an instant. And Asuma is only above Konan and Deidara in pure CQC.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 13, 2015)

Restricted Sasori's poison, in a vain effort to balance what appears to be almost unanimously considered a one-sided test.


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## LostSelf (Sep 13, 2015)

Restrict their arms too.


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## Amol (Sep 14, 2015)

Blitz + Kunai GG.
I believe it will probably look like
Kakashi vs Team 7 in bell test only Kakashi here is serious .


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 14, 2015)

Honestly the Sound Four in general is so fucking overrated.

They had troubles with and were almost completely exhausted from fighting two already tired _Special_ Jōnin who had no knowledge.

How many Elite Jōnin do you know that could have easily replicated what the Sound Four just barely managed to do? Definitely Part 2 if not Part 1 Kakashi. Base Guy at any time during the series, yeah - considering he was blitzing Genin with pure speed without even trying. Every single one of the Six Paths of Pain that were curbstomping entire platoons of Chūnin/Jōnin single-handed would fuck over the Sound Four within seconds.

The idea that these guys even are Jōnin-level, even low-tier, is utterly baffling to me. You don't have. That much trouble with two weakened Special Jōnin and get to place yourself at that level.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

You can't really say any Elite Jonin can best two Special Jonin based on rank alone. A large number of characters that are extremely powerful could be called "special Jonin," as they lack two elements and aren't well-rounded in genjutsu, taijutsu, and ninjtusu.

What's baffling to me is that people rank-scale like crazy and flat-out ignore the databooks when someone points out that Neji had the same speed and better taijutsu than "Elite Jonin" Wave Kakashi, and Kidomaru was reacting easily if not controlling the pace of battle. 

Because then ninja actually have to beat the Sound 4 on a basis of ability rather than a rank-scaled speed blitz, and most ninja can't do so easily, nor should they as the Sound 4 were Orochimaru's elites, only beneath Orochimaru, Kimimaro, and Kabuto.​


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Rasengan-training Naruto was within Sound 4 speed class. Rusty drunk Tsunade using only one finger took a giant dump on him.



Rusty Tsunade was also saved by that Naruto against Kabuto. And let's not act like Kidomaru's opening web and Jirobo's opening prison wouldn't have "taken a dump" on Naruto either without help.​


Alex Payne said:


> Or you can use Sound Chunins - with each likely being at least around base Jirobo level in speed(considering they were too much for CE Naruto+Shikamaru+Sakura to beat in an ambush).



Jirobo was singlehandedly keeping a better team occupied, and Shikamaru acknowledged that they wouldn't be able to beat Jirobo quickly, even 5 v 1. So maybe 5 of those Chunin = 1 Jirobo.

Although Shikamaru would be wrong, since Neji could murk him... but then I guess that established that Shikamaru doesn't know shit about the level of Sound ninja in general.​


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## Alex Payne (Sep 14, 2015)

We have InoShikaCho vs Asuma. Ino and Shikamaru could be considered  Specal Jonin(if not higher). Yet it took Butterfly Choji(Elite Jonin if  not Low Kage) and a team attack to properly defeat Asuma. Who wasn't  even at full power(telegraphing attacks, lack of Knives). 

Kabuto(Kakashi's peer) can drop a squad of ANBU(all at least Special Jonins) with minimal effort. 

And stats again? Should I use 3.0 speed = 4.0 speed as per statement? Wave Arc Kakashi would mop the floor with SRA Neji. Sound 4 were so beneath Kimimaro that he could solo them that hard they were scared shitless afterwards. Same Kimimaro who can't brush out-of-surgery Lee aside. 

You aren't seeing the bigger picture. Sound 4 were opponents for Part 1 Rookies  - high-end chunins(they would all be Jonins at the start of P2 if that wasn't the case). Kimi was for Lee/Gaara. Kishi went out of his way to send every adult/Jonin away for kids to have their fights. Sent a pair of Speical Jonins to hype Sound 4. Yet he made them tired from a mission and made Sound 4 go all out, spend most of their chakra and have numbers advantage. Why did he do that? Because Adults/Proper Jonins were still above Part 1 kids/their peers. 2.5 years of training and Rookies were still catching up. You can blame Kishi for neglecting them like that but facts are facts. Start of P2 Rookies barely reached the level you think their SRA versions and Sound 4 were on.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 14, 2015)

Strat keepin' the thread alive with his devil's advocacy. 

Just gonna throw out there how I predict it will go:

1. Konan - Loses both scenarios.
2. Deidara - Loses both.
3. Hidan - Loses both.
4. Sasori (Hiruko); if Hiruko is destroyed, match ends - Loses first scenario, wins second.
5. Sasori (True) - Loses first scenario, wins second.
6. Kakuzu - Wins first scenario, easily wins second.
7. Itachi - Easily wins both.
8. Deva/God Pain - Easily wins both.
9. Obito - Easily wins both.
10. Kisame - Easily wins both.
11. The Six Paths of Pain - Easily wins both.


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Sound 4 were so beneath Kimimaro that he could solo them that hard they were scared shitless afterwards. Same Kimimaro who can't brush out-of-surgery Lee aside.



None of the fighters on this list can beat a completely unrestricted Kimimaro with nothing but taijutsu except for perhaps Kisame, and even that's iffy. _Base_ Kimimaro couldn't take down _drunk_ Lee because drunk Lee's a absolute beast. I mean, regular kid Lee was already a taijutsu prodigy.

The Akatsuki weren't later antagonists because of their taijutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 14, 2015)

If Kimi was here things might go different.  Even Konan would waste them with that thing she hasn't done since childhood.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> None of the fighters on this list can beat a completely unrestricted Kimimaro with nothing but taijutsu except for perhaps Kisame, and even that's iffy. _Base_ Kimimaro couldn't take down _drunk_ Lee because drunk Lee's a absolute beast. I mean, regular kid Lee was already a taijutsu prodigy.
> 
> The Akatsuki weren't later antagonists because of their taijutsu.


You didn't get my point. Strategos was arguing that S4 were the next best thing after Kimi/Kabuto. Trying to ride on their hype/level. But being the next best doesn't matter when the guy right above you can stomp you and traumatize you in process. 

And Kimi had to actually try against sober Base Lee. 
Just by taking a surprise kick Kimimaro rates Lee highly
They clash without a clear winner but with Lee admitting that Kimi is skilled
Guy who stomped Sound 4 is acknowledging that Base Lee(who isn't as good as in CE due to surgery) is good. Lee is indeed _good_. But he isn't that good. Like - how strong do you think P1 kids were? All (borderline) Jonins? Why then after 2.5 years they were still considered chunins except for Neji(who kinda was in Naruto/Sasuke/Gaara group for a brief period of time)?


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## Yoko (Sep 14, 2015)

Acknowledging someone's prowess doesn't really indicate they're on the same level.  Kakashi was impressed by pre-wave Arc Sasuke, for example.  He was literally _gaping_ at his performance at one point.  If you just watched that one clash Sasuke had with Kakashi with no context before or after the exchange, the reader would have thought them to be comparable, which we know isn't the case.  Likewise, a brief opening exchange between Lee and Kimimaro isn't enough to rank them upon.

And I'm pretty sure any Jonin would have had an equal reaction to Lee, had they fought him.  If Kakashi was gaping at pre-wave Arc Sasuke, who was later easily dealt with by weightless Lee even with 2T Sharingan, then I'm certain Kakashi would have had an even more dramatic reaction to Lee if he were fighting him with no prior knowledge.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> We have InoShikaCho vs Asuma. Ino and Shikamaru could be considered  Specal Jonin(if not higher). Yet it took Butterfly Choji(Elite Jonin if  not Low Kage) and a team attack to properly defeat Asuma. Who wasn't  even at full power(telegraphing attacks, lack of Knives).



Special Jonin isn't related to power relative to Jonin, but versatility. They're non-versatile specialists. Wind Naruto is powerful enough to beat Jonin, but he lacks elements and general well-roundedness. All of the Sound 4 could be called special Jonin since they have "5" stats before even the CS boosting everything and pushing them 5+.​


Alex Payne said:


> Kabuto(Kakashi's peer) can drop a squad of ANBU(all at least Special Jonins) with minimal effort.



Kidomaru also immobilized a bunch of ANBU with his web.​


Alex Payne said:


> Wave Arc Kakashi would mop the floor with SRA Neji.



Not in taijutsu. Not according to Kishi's databook. And honestly, I'm not sure how you think Kakashi easily wins if Neji sees him and can Kaiten his attacks away.​


Alex Payne said:


> Same Kimimaro who can't brush out-of-surgery Lee aside.



Same Lee who knocked out Elite Jonin Gai and had said Elite Jonin in a cold sweat just from the memory. You say humor. I say hype. Kimimaro's hype and stats also says hype.​


Alex Payne said:


> Sent a pair of Speical Jonins to hype Sound 4.



In the manga, they're just called Jonin. I guess you pick and choose what to pull from the databook. And in the manga, Sakon said it would only take two of them to beat Kakashi, and that was him telling Tayuya to STFU because she thought she could do it herself.​


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## Ghost (Sep 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Same Lee who knocked out Elite Jonin Gai.



This still?

Guy would rather commit sudoku than hurt Lee and the whole thing was comic relief.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

Ghost said:


> This still? Guy would rather commit sudoku than hurt Lee and the whole thing was comic relief.



Grasping at straws. They spar all the time and Gai doesn't get knocked out all the time. Lee was unpredictable, which is why Gai couldn't just block him (and he couldn't restrain him.)

Kimimaro was hyped by Kabuto to be stronger than anyone in Konoha, and had a 5 in taijutsu, and Drunk Lee's unpredictability was besting him. So him legitimately knocking out Gai isn't a joke.​


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## Matty (Sep 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Grasping at straws. They spar all the time and Gai doesn't get knocked out all the time. Lee was unpredictable, which is why Gai couldn't just block him (and he couldn't restrain him.)
> 
> Kimimaro was hyped by Kabuto to be stronger than anyone in Konoha, and had a 5 in taijutsu, and Drunk Lee's unpredictability was besting him. So him legitimately knocking out Gai isn't a joke.​



It was besting him in base form, I wouldn't exactly call that an insane feat. It's like hyping Konohamaru because he fucked up one path of pein. It's something, but in reality it isn't a true indication of power.


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## Icegaze (Sep 14, 2015)

Unrestricted hiruko looses very quickly to an unrestricted sound 4
That puppet is a joke like a hahah funny joke 
not the kind of thing you take seriously . 

As the akatsuki being restricted to taijutsu 

All akatsuki win Against a taijutsu only sound 4 while only Konan should loose if sound 4 can use their other abilities


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## FlamingRain (Sep 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kidomaru also immobilized a bunch of ANBU with his web.​



When did this happen?



> Same Lee who knocked out Elite Jonin Gai and had said Elite Jonin in a cold sweat just from the memory.​



They were in the middle of a celebration, and since that seemed to be where Gai first learned about what happens to Lee when he gets drunk it's highly unlikely he was on-guard. For all we know Gai ordered a refill, turned around and his face went right into Lee's foot or something.

The fact that when he woke up Lee had torn the place apart is probably what made Gai nervous.



> And in the manga, Sakon said it would only take two of them to beat Kakashi, and that was him telling Tayuya to STFU because she thought she could do it herself.​



They're both dumber and more arrogant than Kidomaru who said that they needed to just wait until Kakashi left.

And they sure did a fine job of not moving until nighttime.


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## Rocky (Sep 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Lee is indeed _good_. But he isn't that good. Like - how strong do you think P1 kids were?



In regards to _taijutsu_, I think that even kid Lee is Kage class. It may sound asinine, but like I said before, Lee's a prodigy. Who wins in a hand-to-hand only bout, Chunin Lee or Mei? Chunin Lee or Deidara? Chunin Lee or Gaara (lol)? PII Lee would spank them all, so I think kid Lee could easily keep up (if not win outright). With the Gates, he wouldn't even be challenged. 

General level is not indicative of speed, strength, or taijutsu skill. Many people have Onoki above A in a tier list, but had it been old Onoki (instead of The Yellow Flash) running into a v2 blitz-happy A in the middle of the woods, then Onoki's tenure as Tsuchikage would have ended there.

If I understood correctly, Strat's primary point was that these S-Rank guys in the Akatsuki probably aren't blitzing the pants off the Sound 4 based only off of rank. People like Konan, Deidara, & Sasori aren't physically beastly enough to overcome the unique abilities of the Sound 4 with just taijutsu. I know Kimimaro can beat them all, but the three Akatsuki listed above would be slaughtered by unrestricted Kimimaro without their ninjutsu. 

Itachi, Obito, & Kisame possess physical speed and/or strength great enough to _smash_ nearly every Kage (in taijutsu), so they have a much better chance at winning. Hidan & Tendo (all six bodies would win) are wild cards, but I actually lean towards the Sound 4. The rest stand little chance.


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## Bonly (Sep 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> When did this happen?



I wouldn't say it was a bunch but Kido did catch two Anbu members here


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## FlamingRain (Sep 14, 2015)

Oh snap. I forgot about that page.

I just remembered the Sound 4 catching one with the barrier.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 14, 2015)

I recall the S4 realizing it's Kakashi and acknowledging he'd waste them.


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## Bonly (Sep 14, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I recall the S4 realizing it's Kakashi and acknowledging he'd waste them.



Nope best we got is one of them thinking it would be better to wait.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I wouldn't say it was a bunch but Kido did catch two Anbu members here



Thanks for finding it for me. My point being base Kidomaru bested an ANBU _captain_ (I forgot that) and ANBU member easily there. And as far as I'm concerned, ANBU are essentially Jonin.

After all, if being hand-picked by the Hokage for Black Ops missions doesn't make you a "High Ninja" in the village, then what does? Notable members being Itachi, Shisui, Kakashi, Orochimaru, etc.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I recall the S4 realizing it's Kakashi and acknowledging he'd waste them.



You're recalling incorrectly. One of them said they could beat Kakashi solo (I believe it was Tayuya) and Sakon told her to shut the fuck up, but that two of them would probably be able to kill Kakashi.

This also flows with the fact that, in the manga, the two special Jonin they defeated were simply referred to as Jonin. So two Sound 4 members can comfortably beat a Jonin, was the gist.​


FlamingRain said:


> They were in the middle of a celebration, and since that seemed to be where Gai first learned about what happens to Lee when he gets drunk it's highly unlikely he was on-guard. For all we know Gai ordered a refill, turned around and his face went right into Lee's foot or something.



With all due respect, this is you rationalizing with 100% bullshit. The reason Kishimoto had Gai freaking out about how dangerous Drunk Lee was was to hype Drunk Lee as a taijutsu beast before his fight.

Kimimaro had max skill in taijutsu like Gai, and Kimimaro had superior general hype to Gai within the manga. Lee was too unpredictable for Kimimaro, so why invent bullshit for Gai's sake?

Base Gai losing doesn't make him bad. He has a 5 in taijutsu like Kimimaro. It's just that Drunk Lee is that unpredictable and talented at taijutsu, hence Gai hyping him and Lee besting Kimimaro's "5." 

If Kimimaro didn't rely on his kekkei genkai, then Drunk Lee would've been landing serious blows on him due to the unpredictability of the style, and may have been knocked out.​


Rocky said:


> I know Kimimaro can beat them all.



Let's talk about this for a second. This is more of an ability match up between healthy Kimimaro and them rather than what people envision as Kimimaro just casually blitzing and thrashing them all. 

The primary threats of the Sound 4 are these: ranged genjutsu, sniping, strength, and body-fusion. Kimimaro counters all these exceptionally well if you compare his abilities with these offenses.

Shikamaru showed that causing a severe amount of pain to yourself, while completely paralyzed, can break Tayuya's genjutsu. Kimimaro frequently pushes bones through his skin without movement.

Kidomaru can hide and remotely direction an arrow through the back of your skull so you never see it coming. Kimimaro has a skull hard as steel and regenerates like Tsunade.

Jirobo can bury Kimimaro by throwing a mountain on him, but we've seen how Kimimaro handles being buried. And he'd never land taijutsu against someone with 5/4.5 physical stats and the CS.

And then we have a Sakon, whose primary ability is to attach himself to a host and then fuck them. But oh snap, Kimimaro regenerates and Ukon doesn't, so Ukon would be screwed.

None of the Akatsuki restricted to just taijutsu are like Kimimaro in this regard, and most of them would die from a sniper arrow through the back of the head except Itachi. 

Plus a healthy Kimimaro camping in Sawarabi no Mai is basically a bitch to kill even to unrestricted Akatsuki. Combine that with opportunistic ground spears and ambushes, and he's golden.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 14, 2015)

Kakashi murdered dozens of jonin during the sound and sand invasion.  Two special Jonin mean nothing to him.  Not even Uzumaki Tayuya, who faked her death to escape the terribleness of Part II.


Cool beans Bon Lee.  Tatooine is goat.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

Link of confirmed dozen Jonin kills for Kakashi? In any case, the Sound 4 didn't consider Kakashi above them. One thought they could solo, and one said more realistically two would be enough.

And as they knew Kabuto (equal) and Kimimaro (superior,) I don't think they'd be that far off in their estimate of Kakashi. I'd say two of them would beat Kabuto as well.​


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## LostSelf (Sep 14, 2015)

Kakashi and Gai were destroying Jounins easily. Like Asuma, when he saved Shikamaru.

Sound 4 needed a lot of advantages to beat Genma and Raido (or whatever their names are) tired and almost out of chakra (In wich Kishimoto bothered to let us know why they won). And even  like that, the battle was not that one-sided, considering the two Jounins survived.

And i would put my bet on Kakashi beating Genma and Raido by himself without those advantages the Sound 4 had.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Link of confirmed dozen Jonin kills for Kakashi? In any case, the Sound 4 didn't consider Kakashi above them. One thought they could solo, and one said more realistically two would be enough.
> 
> And as they knew Kabuto (equal) and Kimimaro (superior,) I don't think they'd be that far off in their estimate of Kakashi. I'd say two of them would beat Kabuto as well.​



Is this going to be the thing where I link you a bunch of Kakashi kills, and you say none of them were absolutely confirmed to be jonin, and then I link you to the scan where Kakashi says he didn't expect them to send so many jonin, and you say he definitely fought all of those Jonin off panel (in intense 1v1 fights,) and then I point out that none of it has been 1v1, and then you point out that Baki was a confirmed Jonin and he had a 1v1 fight, and then I point out that right before he retreated it was a bunch of Jonin vs him, and then you say that only proves that Baki was kage level or something and by the end we're way off topic?

Well, it could go a few other ways too.  

*Corpses*
catch two Anbu members here
catch two Anbu members here

*Kakashi's Murder Spree*
catch two Anbu members here
Link removed

*Confirmation of rank*
Link removed


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

This is the part where I point out Gai said *Sand* Jonin and Kakashi was shown killing three sound ninja, and then in the aftermath the collective group was shown to collectively have killed another group.

Regardless though, we've seen a Jonin be paneled by Gaiden Obito, who known as a loser Chunin, and his stats are in the databook for comparison and are entirely inferior to prodigy Genin.

And Aoba is a special Jonin and he took part in that massacre where they're massively outnumbered by alleged Jonin, and he seems fine. He also garnered special respect from .​


LostSelf said:


> And i would put my bet on Kakashi beating Genma and Raido by himself without those advantages the Sound 4 had.



The problem with this is that it's based on nothing because you don't know anything about Genma and Raido, other than losing and Shizune being blown away that could have been defeated like that.

Honestly, the shock and fear that Shizune, a jonin, showed from the feat, and Genma and Raido telling their two remaining team mates that they had _no chance_ against the Sound 4 should say enough.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 14, 2015)

Do you even understand the context behind Obito's success in killing him?

The Rock ninja was throwing absolutely zero caution to the wind and charging in recklessly because he didn't expect for a second that Obito could now perceive his chakra and negate his invisibility.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 14, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Do you even understand the context behind Obito's success in killing him?
> 
> *The Rock ninja was throwing absolutely zero caution to the wind and charging in recklessly* because he didn't expect for a second that Obito could now perceive his chakra and negate his invisibility.



This is 100% bullshit. Reread the exchange. Taiseki specifically said he was being cautious, and he approached Obito from behind. He just _didn't react_ to Obito turning around and gutting him.​


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## FlamingRain (Sep 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The reason Kishimoto had Gai freaking out about how dangerous Drunk Lee was to hype Drunk Lee as a taijutsu beast before his fight.​



Obviously.

It's just that Lee doesn't need to be able to knock out a Gai that's actually on guard in order for Gai to be concerned about him getting drunk (Lee destroying everything around would be enough for that) and the situation they were in wasn't one where Gai was likely to have been on-guard anyway.

Kimimaro didn't have superior general hype compared to Gai either. His hype is  that he outranked the members of the Sound 4 which outranked the rookies making up the SRA team, and that he could've beaten anyone Konoha would have sent after Sasuke at a time when Konoha's higher ups (_such as Gai_) were pre-occupied with other missions. That makes him strong, but not stronger than someone like Gai who would've been pretty high up the ladder of even the higher ups.

I'm also curious as to why you'd say _"besting Kimimaro's '5'"_ and _"if Kimimaro didn't rely on his Kekkei Genkai"_ as if that Kekkei Genkai doesn't factor into his Taijutsu score when several of his dances are specifically   .

For all intents and purposes Lee was about to lose to Kimimaro's 5.


----------



## David (Sep 15, 2015)

Most of what I think has been said already.

Any Akatsuki member, with the exception of maybe Konan since she doesn't have a single non-jutsu feat and seemed to be completely jutsu-reliant from what was shown, would beat down the Sound 4 like they're children.

The only person who would lose to them is perhaps Hidan if you put him in a forest 100 meters away from the Sound 4 and they were allowed to set traps.  He might get caught by Kidomaru's web traps.  I want to say there's a good chance he'd get caught by Kidomaru's web, but honestly, as stupid and careless as he is, he's an Akatsuki, and *being an Akatsuki essentially means that that Chuunin level traps are baby stuff, even for a dumbass like himself (this is quite debatable and I can see someone having a problem with it, but just putting my opinion out there) *.

Even if he would get caught by Kidomaru's web traps in a forest scenario, if one wants to take the manga literally and scale things a bit, Kidomaru bragged that his webs could hold two elephants.  CE Sasuke completely overpowered a grizzly bear with Taijutsu that was greater than the size of two elephants, and Hidan's strength, through scaling, is on a completely different level.

However, SRA Naruto was probably stronger than CE Sasuke and couldn't break through the web, so it's only logical to assume that the "my web can support 2 elephants" statement is a complete understatement because Kishi couldn't be bothered to do very rough math or sucks at strength and weight scaling.

Ultimately, whether or not an Extremely Elite Jounin (better than Asuma, who was an Elite Jounin specializing in CQC) Taijutsu specialist could break Kidomaru's web is probably best left up to the imagination.

In a Seinen version of Kishi's manga, if Hidan were to get caught in Kidomaru's web, I'd imagine him having enough trouble breaking it to give Jirobo enough time to literally rip his head off.

At a 5 meter distance, though, he'd just beat them down similar to how Asuma beat down the ninja chasing Shikamaru.

In the OP's scenario 1 (because Scenario 2 is neg diff for all Akatsuki members), assuming Konan loses, the winning member who would have most trouble with the S4 is clearly Deidara since he's never actually punched anyone on panel.

Deidara would take a lot of time to beat the Sound 4, but he was evasive and skillful on a level *leagues *above any of the S4 (dodging Part 2 Elite Jounin/Low Kage Taijutsu users on foot while injured), so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he'd pull it off.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Kimimaro didn't have superior general hype compared to Gai either. His hype is  that he outranked the members of the Sound 4



No. His hype is being Orochimaru's strongest servant, i.e. stronger than Kabuto, and according to Kabuto,  in Konoha would be able to stop or hinder him from taking Sasuke.​


FlamingRain said:


> I'm also curious as to why you'd say _"besting Kimimaro's '5'"_ and _"if Kimimaro didn't rely on his Kekkei Genkai"_ as if that Kekkei Genkai doesn't factor into his Taijutsu score when several of his dances are specifically   .



Lee was evading the dances and effectively counter-attacking. Kimimaro was relying on the durability of his kekkei genkai to prevent him from being knocked out like Gai.​


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## Alex Payne (Sep 15, 2015)

Same old song from Strategos. Buying arc hype used only to simply create tension. 
Last question from me. Considering that Kabuto always speaks the the truth and 100% correct.

Kabuto is wondering who is stronger between P1 Sasuke and Kimimaro. Does that make Part 1 Sasuke stronger than anyone from Konoha/Kabuto too? P1 Sasuke is suddenly Kage level?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 15, 2015)

Not really sure why Strategos is relaying on hype to support his/her argument...

It's not as if anyone was refuting or discussing Itachi's abilities. 

PT.1 Kabuto's statements were asinine, specifically the one you posted about "nobody can beat him", which was not "nobody in *Konoha* can beat him"

Which also makes no sense. Gai is a certain win, and Kakashi would kill him with Raikiri before he used Bracken Dance.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

Hey Alex, so what if he wondered if bed-ridden Kimimaro was weaker than Sasuke? That was before Kimimaro shocked everybody with his willpower to get up and keep fighting in that condition.

But here's Mr. Badass Elite Jonin recoiling in shocked fear from Genin Sasuke mad-dogging him, if you're interested. Whew, I'm shivering from that huge level gap between their ninja ranks​


DaVizWiz said:


> PT.1 Kabuto's statements were asinine, specifically the one you posted about "nobody can beat him", which was not "nobody in *Konoha* can beat him"



Wasn't someone just bitching about context? Kabuto was responding within the context of retrieving Sasuke from Konoha, as Orochimaru was concerned Konoha sent strong ninja to stop the Sound 4.​


DaVizWiz said:


> Which also makes no sense. Gai, Kakashi and Hiruzen would all beat him.



Hiruzen was dead, Gai wasn't retconned into a god, and Kakashi wasn't stronger than Kabuto, who himself acknowledged Kimimaro as being a superior servant to Orochimaru.​


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 15, 2015)

Kakashi wasn't stronger than Kabuto?

Based on Jiraiya's statement on a shinobi's ability that he knew nothing about? 

Based on feats he kills him, and he kills Kimimaro. 

Gai taught Lee gates, which appeared in early Part 1. 

Even with the 5th gate he'd kill Kimimaro.

The statement wasn't about Konoha, it was an open statement that included *everyone*, *everywhere*.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kabuto wondering if stuck-in-bed Kimimaro < Sasuke? _Who cares_?


Riiiiiiight. 

"I wonder who is stronger - one bedridden guy or the other perfectly healthy one". Fuck context. 

It's like you are more reasonable when discussing _Itachi.  _


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

Oh, am I ignoring the "context" of present tense?

Or is that you?


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## Alex Payne (Sep 15, 2015)

You are ignoring the whole conversation. 
"We found a successor for you. Guy with the another best Cursed Seal. And another high-end bloodline. I wonder who is stronger between you two."
Successor. The level of Cursed Seal. Bloodline. 

Kabuto was talking about Kimimaro at his best - when he was considered to be Oro's new body.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

Present tense said:
			
		

> I wonder who *is* stronger between you two.





			
				Past tense said:
			
		

> Kabuto was talking about Kimimaro [when he *was*] at his best - when he *was* considered to be Oro's new body.



And in terms of bloodlines, it was already established they preferred .

In terms of skill, the DB makes it clear Kimimaro was way above Sasuke.

In terms of hype, Jugo compared p2 Sasuke to Kimimaro.

But by all means, believe what you want to ignore Kabuto hyping Kimimaro.

_I'm_ the one ignoring everything.


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## Ghoztly (Sep 15, 2015)

Kisame and Itachi curbstomp them taking zero damage, making them look like academy students.

Obito and Pain curbstomp.

Hidan stomps. Kakuzu stomps.

Rest lose.

At least give them Kimimaro, but even then those listed would probably curbstomp them into oblivion.

EDIT: Ok, was a bit harsh and I forgot just ow good Kim was, but can't see him beaiting Kisame or Itachi. He doesn't have the speed for Itachi ( Can Itachi use sharingan? Even without it he wins imo.) And Kisame is Kisame. There is a reason it took Gai to kill him, dude is a tank.


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## Sans (Sep 15, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Blitzstomp, blitz and blitzstomp. Full knowledge destroys whatever chances Sound 4 had to use their tricky abilities at the last moment.



Are any of the matches taken in a stompblitz?


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## Amol (Sep 15, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Riiiiiiight.
> 
> "I wonder who is stronger - one bedridden guy or the other perfectly healthy one". Fuck context.
> It's like you are more reasonable when discussing _Itachi.  _


That is what I was wondering too.
Those 4 are possibly more wanked than Itachi by him. Probably not


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## Matty (Sep 15, 2015)

I don't see how any akatsuki member is outclassed in anyway in this debate. Sound 4 are ok but they really can't hold a candle to anyone in part 2. There is a reason they are never put up against anyone individually in the BD, its always as a group because individually none are that impressive besides Kimimaro and he isn't even included in this.

Can you imagine that? Tayuya vs Sasori, Hidan vs Jirobo, Itachi vs Sakon/Ukon, Pein vs Kidomaru. It would be an absolute joke.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

100% agree with strat
I wonder why no response was given to kabuto shitting himself at sasuke aura 

clearly said imaginary gap between jounin and important genin characters is blurry at best 

As to part 1 sasuke being as strong as kimimaro I find that hilarious at best 

On feats and performance alone kimimaro clears him

Also on this genin level . How many jounin level in part 1 could actually do shit to sasuke retrieval arc gaara??

As to 5th gate lee beating kimimaro 

Bone defense >>>>>>>> sand armor which btw tanked everything lee had to offer and then trolled him


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

Ps: kidomaru did troll 2 anbu members that are mostly made up of jounin 
So I think people should remember fodder genin to fodder jounin there is a gap
However when main character are concerned the lines blurs
Kabuto shits on anbu members then shits himself at genin sasuke aura 

So either that version of sasuke easily climbed the ranks or kabuto dropped ranks . However u look at it being compared to kimimaro who kabuto Said was stronger than him

Establishes the likes of kimi and sasuke as jounin level


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No. His hype is being Orochimaru's strongest servant, i.e. stronger than Kabuto, and according to Kabuto,  in Konoha would be able to stop or hinder him from taking Sasuke.​



The Viz states:

*"I'm sorry ...It's just that ...Lord Orochimaru, you know. It doesn't matter who stands in his way ...there is nobody who could overcome Kimimaro."*​
There's no mention of Kimimaro being Orochimaru's _"strongest servant"_ (and _"greatest"_ could just mean most dedicated). Kabuto doesn't even specify Konoha. Context is what informs us that he would've been referring to ninja they sent because that's who they were getting Sasuke from, and that context also informs us that at the time  Konoha's higher-ups such as Gai were already busy (due to an attack Kabuto knew about).



> Lee was evading the dances and effectively counter-attacking. Kimimaro was relying on the durability of his kekkei genkai to prevent him from being knocked out like Gai.​



Lee was actually caught by one of _Kimimaro's_ _dances_, so...Lee still lost to his 5.

_"Relying on the durability of his Kekkei Genkai"_ was never mentioned like it was with Gaara's sand coffin except for when Kimi _caught_ Lee's foot with the bones. Before that, Kimimaro was just impressed that Lee managed to land a blow on him, so I doubt it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

@flamming rain kabuto still shat himself at genin sasuke aura who he just compared and wondered who was stronger him or kimimaro

So the viz doesn't suddenly explain that away


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 15, 2015)

> As to 5th gate lee beating kimimaro
> 
> Bone defense >>>>>>>> sand armor which btw tanked everything lee had to offer and then trolled him


I'm sorry- who said 5th Gate Genin Lee could beat Kimimaro?

I said 5th Gate PT.1 Gai could beat Kimimaro. Re-read the posts again.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @flamming rain kabuto still shat himself at genin sasuke aura who he just compared and wondered who was stronger him or kimimaro
> 
> So the viz doesn't suddenly explain that away



It doesn't need to.

_Kabuto just looks surprised_, not intimidated.

He didn't react like Neji did upon seeing the Nine Tails Chakra inside of Naruto.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

So sasuke is intimidated by a genin sasuke 
Doesn't that also prove the lines are blurred between relevant genin and jounin ?

The guy sweating


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

_"Sasuke is intimidated by a Genin Sasuke"_? What?

When did I ever say that?


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## Mercurial (Sep 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The Viz states:
> 
> *"I'm sorry ...It's just that ...Lord Orochimaru, you know. It doesn't matter who stands in his way ...there is nobody who could overcome Kimimaro."*​
> There's no mention of Kimimaro being Orochimaru's _"strongest servant"_ (and _"greatest"_ could just mean most dedicated). Kabuto doesn't even specify Konoha. Context is what informs us that he would've been referring to ninja they sent because that's who they were getting Sasuke from, and that context also informs us that at the time  Konoha's higher-ups such as Gai were already busy (due to an attack Kabuto knew about).
> ...



Perfect answers. Not to mention that Sound 4 had to push themselves at their best of the Cursed Sign level 2 to defeat Genma and Raido, basically two jonin level, good jonin at most, that were completely out of chakra after a tiring mission, while as said being 4 vs 2. Yeah very impressive. And no matter how you look at, at the end they individually fought very very hard battles (doesn't even matter the winner or the loser) against Konoha's kids that can be gauged around basic chunin level, maybe above, maybe low jonin even, but that's it.

Sound 4 are the new Sannin. "Sannin teamwork" could defeat Hashirama, who will "Sound 4 teamwork" defeat? Kimimaro?


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _"Sasuke is intimidated by a Genin Sasuke"_? What?
> 
> When did I ever say that?



Kabuto 
U must know what I mean 
Don't be silly

@raikiri19 kidomaru neg diff'd 2 anbu who were also jounin unless u know of chunin anbu 

maybe raido and Gemma are stronger than people think 

after all he did get into it with baki and didn't get trolled . While hayate did who was also a jounin


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

I said Kabuto does _not_ look intimidated. He looks surprised.

They're not the same thing.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

Lol so u sweat when u surprised then? And back away as well
Kk good to know 
Cuz that's what kabuto did


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Naruto characters do _(1)_ _(2)_.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Naruto characters do _(1)_ _(2)_.



but do they move back and sound impressed over a person chakra?

cuz I assure you kabuto was


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

They might if they haven't felt it before.

Making an observation about the strength of Sasuke's Chakra doesn't support Kabuto being scared any more than it does Kabuto simply being surprised.

The face he's making, however, looks more surprised than scared.

And not even as surprised as Kakashi was that Sasuke could use a Gōkakyū.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> They might if they haven't felt it before.
> 
> Making an observation about the strength of Sasuke's Chakra doesn't support Kabuto being scared any more than it does Kabuto simply being surprised.
> 
> The face he's making, however, looks more surprised than scared.



lol sure, I guess when someone is surprised enough by a kid chakra they move back and change their tone with them 

solid argument buddy 

can u find any scans where someone makes an observation about the strength of a person chakra without being intimidated by it

why mention it, if its nothing to fuss about


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Kakashi was more surprised that Sasuke's Chakra was sufficient to cast the Gōkakyū no Jutsu.

He still could have stomped like twenty Sasukes.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

Did Kakashi sweat and move back though 
Did he change his tone 
Cuz kabuto pulled back from sasuke 
After whispering into his ear


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Just look at Kakashi's _face_.

Why would Kakashi move back when he was already so far away? And did you expect Kabuto to just _keep_ his face next to Sasuke's _after_ he reminded him that was Orochimaru or what?

Most people would not do that.


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## Icegaze (Sep 15, 2015)

So ur saying if kabuto was further away he won't have moved back
?


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

I would say that.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> *"I'm sorry ...It's just that ...Lord Orochimaru, you know. It doesn't matter who stands in his way ...there is nobody who could overcome Kimimaro."*



Kabuto saying this also supports Kimimaro > Kabuto.



FlamingRain said:


> Lee was actually caught by one of _Kimimaro's_ _dances_, so...Lee still lost to his 5. _"*Relying on the durability of his Kekkei Genkai"*_* was never mentioned* like it was with Gaara's sand


It was shown in the scans you linked.

Kimimaro, despite his 5, had no choice but to use his bloodline for defense.



FlamingRain said:


> _Kabuto just looks surprised_, not intimidated.



Ok. Kabuto jumping back and sweating from Sasuke's glare isn't intimidation.


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## LostSelf (Sep 15, 2015)

That doesn't look like being intimidated.

Why the man who fought Orochimaru's equal with a smile on his face would be intimidated by a kid?

Also, Kabuto was sweating before Sasuke looked him like that.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

Going from telling someone to watch their mouth to: 


recoiling
sweating
being wide-eyed
being to scared to thinking clearly "wha-what the...?"
_*after they mad-dog you *_

is _the_ definition of being intimidated. But that's what I'd say too:

"I wasn't scared. You, just, uh, surprised me is all."​


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## LostSelf (Sep 15, 2015)

That's surprise, he was surprised by Sasuke's strong chakra. It's different from being intimidated.

Kabuto was also sweating before Sasuke looked at him (when he's telling Sasuke about Orochimaru). Kabuto moved back a little to avoid any kind of attack probably, considering Sasuke looked like he could've attacked.

And Kabuto wouldn't have been able to kick his ass because Oro would've protected Sasuke over Kabuto.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> This could also support Kimimaro > Kabuto though. (Do you doubt this?)



It wouldn't though. Not anymore than Kimimaro > anyone else at least.



> It was shown though, in the scans you linked.



My bad. I thought you meant when Lee actually landed a blow on him earlier.

What was shown in the scans I linked to has little to do with durability and more to do with that just being what happens when something sharp hits you (or you hit it, one). Kimimaro used his bones to injure drunken Lee.

He then caught the kick of a Lee that had sobered up.



> You are kidding yourself if that's not intimidation.



No. I'm just not going to be stupid and think this implies anything about Sasuke's level relative to an elite Jōnin's when Kabuto's facial expression is by all means still more calm than Kakashi's was, Neji's was, etc.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It wouldn't though. Not anymore than Kimimaro > anyone else at least.



No. The difference is Kabuto can accurately speak for himself when hyping people, but not necessarily for everyone else. e.g. Tenten saying Neji's defense is impenetrable means it is so _to her_.​


FlamingRain said:


> What was shown in the scans I linked to has little to do with durability and more to do with that just being what happens when something sharp hits you (or you hit it, one). Kimimaro used his bones to injure drunken Lee.



He said he had no choice and needed the kekkei genkai for defense against Lee's style because Lee was landing hits. Enough said. Gai did not have the bloodline and would be taking hits.​


FlamingRain said:


> No. I'm just not going to be stupid and think this implies anything about Sasuke's level relative to an elite Jōnin's when Kabuto's facial expression is by all means still more calm than Kakashi's was, Neji's was, etc.



But at least you're thinking, not mentally stuttering on the word "wha-what" like a little bitch like Kabuto was doing.​


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 15, 2015)

Kabuto intimidated by Sasuke?

The same dude who fought in Sannin Deadlock and Tsunade individually?

My ininital impression is it was a scare, but looking deeper into it- that's only because Sasuke displayed a threatening look on his face which led me to believe Kabuto's reaction was of fear, when in fact it was entirely based on his chakra level and had it not been for that or Orochimaru being in the room he'd of killed him for giving him a look like that. 

It was surprise, Kabuto doesn't scare that easily. 

There's also the fact that Kabuto doesn't scare.. like.. at all... unless there's a lethal incoming attack. Kakashi, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Shizune, Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Itachi, Obito- none of them scared him with their presence or chakra levels.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

Obviously Kabuto would recollect himself and take him on with a cool head, but it _was_ fear Sasuke induced. You don't mentally stutter when you feel zero threat.​


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No. The difference is Kabuto can accurately speak for himself when hyping people, but not necessarily for everyone else.​



So you're actually implying that Kabuto who acted as a spy in several if not all of the great villages and collected data on their ninjas abilities thought Kimimaro would demolish any of those people.

Hilari_ass_.

Even more so considering that Kabuto was _only talking about people who would come fight to get Sasuke back_, which he wouldn't be.



> He said he had no choice and needed the kekkei genkai for defense against Lee's style because Lee was landing hits. Enough said.​



And, _again_, when I said it wasn't mentioned I was referring to the exchanges _before that_, when all Kimi did was think it was impressive that Lee landed _a_ blow on him.

Once Kimimaro did say that there was no other choice he didn't use the bones for defense. _He attacked._ He injured Lee twice and _then_ used the bones for blocking _after Lee had sobered up._



> But the fact that you can't think and aren't sweating and mentally stuttering on the word "what" leads me to believe you're not intimidated.​



Where in the heck did you get "can't think" from in a panel where Kabuto is thinking about Sasuke's Chakra?

All that is implied by the panel is that Kabuto was surprised Sasuke's Chakra was as strong as it was. It doesn't mean he through it would be threatening even to him or anything like that.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 15, 2015)

This is just getting obnoxious. Kabuto hyped Kimimaro extravagantly. Sure, throw it out. Kimimaro said he had no choice to use his bloodline because he couldn't block Lee's hits. Sure, there was no defensive need.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 15, 2015)

Like Kakashi who was going on missions as soon as he got back from missions, and all the other Jōnin pre-occupied with missions due to a shortage of ninja to handle them courtesy of the attack Kabuto took part in, I suppose (Gai had just gotten back from one when we saw him, Genma, Raidō, Shizune and that other guy whose name I forgot were returning from one when we saw them).


I'm not throwing Kimimaro's hype out, I'm just saying it doesn't paint him as _superior to_ Gai.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 15, 2015)

Kabuto isn't Kakashi's equal, not sure why you continue to repeat that Strategoob. 

He ran from him, they never fought, there's absolutely no way you could accurately state they were equals regardless of character statements.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 15, 2015)

Some of the responses and the explanation of how the Sound 4 manage to win certain matches are fucking emmy worthy 



> 1. Konan


The only one who probably loses due to never having zero CqC feats



> 2. Deidara


Even though he lacks substantial CqC feats, he was fast enough to survive a Part II Sasuke blitz... sorry the sound 4 never touch him. He wins after a long game of cat and mouse. He can break Tayuya's genjutsu while none of the boys are fast enough to tag him with any technique. He runs until the Sound 4 drop from exhaustion... at which point he plants kunai in their heads 



> 3. Hidan


He can actively pressured part II MS Kakashi. He lol blitzes them from this distance. If he kills Kidimaro first, GG for Sound 4. If he chooses someone else then only thing that may work is Kidimaro camping and getting him stuck in his webbing allowing the survivors to take him down. Hidan takes it 8/10 times



> 4. Sasori (Hiruko); if Hiruko is destroyed, match ends


Hiruko could probably brought down with extreme dif due to mobility issues and location via the sound 4 allowing Jirobi to ambush Sasori (at the sacrifice of the bait person(s))



> 5. Sasori (True)


The single biggest curbstompage in this match. Sasori takes them to the rape shed one by one, in single file order while telling them what he plans on doing to them while in there. 

Honestly I'd be impressed if the Sound 4 didn't simply try to run for their lives at the sight of him. The sound 4 along with a substantial part of the forest are left a pile of ash via flamethrowers



> 6. Kakuzu


curb stomps the living shit out of them with his bare hands if _Jiongu_ is allowed



> 7. Itachi



Itachi takes them out within one motion of a blitz and simultaneous multi-kunai throw



> 8. Deva/God Pain



_Tendo_ blitzes and chakra rod lampoons each of them in the face, hiding just prolongs the inevitable



> 9. Obito



Read _Tendo_, just Obito does it a tad more efficiently



> 10. Kisame



, If Kisame has Samehada this is rapestomp. If he doesn't have Samehada... it's still a rape stomp. I don't even need to explain



> 11. The Six Paths of Pain


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## Nikushimi (Sep 16, 2015)

How did Kabuto get dragged into this? 

Try to stay on-topic, guys.

@Joakim3: No flamethrowers; Sasori may only use his bodily weapons, which means the stuff that is directly, physically attached to him (e.g., blades and stomach cable). Also, I intended for Jiongu to be restricted, so I went ahead and clarified that in the OP.


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## Matty (Sep 16, 2015)

I think it's pretty safe to say that Konan is the only one who loses along with Sasori in Hiruko. I was going to say Deidara would lose but after reading Joakim's post I think I would go with him winning even without substantial taijutsu feats. He has good speed and from that speed can blitz them relatively easily.

Edit: With Sasori in Hiruko, though, can any of the Sound 4 smash it? I mean it did take a Sakura punch to damage it. If he goes after Jirobo first and kills him I don't know if the other 4 can necessarily break it.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 16, 2015)

Hiruko was shown to use shunshin-like movements. It's a battle puppet which trashed P2 Kankuro(guy who already was on S4 level or higher 2.5 years ago). Plus no genjutsu and Sakon/Ukon possession. Even webs aren't as effective considering multiple projectiles/ranged moves. Sasori inside Hiruko is well-suited to counter S4 abilities. Even outside massive difference in stats.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

BS how did kabuto know who would come get sasuke ?
Even people in konoha were surprised by tsunade decision to send genin 

So kabuto was talking about people in konoha generally


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## Matty (Sep 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Hiruko was shown to use shunshin-like movements. It's a battle puppet which trashed P2 Kankuro(guy who already was on S4 level or higher 2.5 years ago). Plus no genjutsu and Sakon/Ukon possession. Even webs aren't as effective considering multiple projectiles/ranged moves. Sasori inside Hiruko is well-suited to counter S4 abilities. Even outside massive difference in stats.



Agreed, never saw that scan either. Hiruko to me isn't a phenomenal puppet, but it is genius and innovative. I think people tend to underestimate it's durability. It really all depends on Jirobo becaue to me no one else can smash it (MAYBE Kidomaru)


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## Ghoztly (Sep 16, 2015)

Jirobu base and perhaps even CS might not be able to. But CS2 probably could. But, he hasn't shown any speed feats to my memory, I think Hiruko would even be faster, I think people overlook just how much Chakra people have access to in CS2, it's actually ridiculous.

Honestly none of the sound 4 are all that fast, Hiruko  probably outspeeds them all haha. What a badass puppet.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

Ps: genin gaara performed better in the chunin exams than any jounin in the past 
I wonder if the gap is really that large 
The same gaara scared baki and was the sand war deterrent as a genin 

By sasuke retrieval arc tsunade sent a stronger version to fight kimimaro 

Btw part 1 gaara has horrendously better feats than the likes of asuma , wave arc Kakashi etc


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## Alex Payne (Sep 16, 2015)

CE Gaara's sand was brushed off by Gai's casual hand slap. CE Gaara nearly lost to Lee - Gai's severally weaker version. CE Gaara nearly lost/lost to CE Sasuke - Kakashi's severally weaker version.

Gaara is scary when he goes Biju Mode. Which is well... a biju. Plus in Suna he's got all that sand to use. Even his partial transformation struggled against tired Sasuke and Naruto.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

Gaara going shukaku something he could easily do >>>>>> gai , Kakashi and asuma in part 1 
This is knowledge kabuto had as well or do u ignore this

Gaara by the kimimaro fight was casually out scaling jounin and by far


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## Alex Payne (Sep 16, 2015)

And what exactly are talking about now. You think Kabuto knew that Tsunade's diplomacy was good enough to make Suna send reinforcements? And that Gaara was sent? And he included Gaara in that bullshit phrase "no one can beat Kimimaro"?


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> And what exactly are talking about now. You think Kabuto knew that Tsunade's diplomacy was good enough to make Suna send reinforcements? And that Gaara was sent? And he included Gaara in that bullshit phrase "no one can beat Kimimaro"?



And you think he knew she would send genin when kabuto said no one konoha would send would stop kimi
How did kabuto know she would send genin 

Yet not know she would rely on the sand 

Did u just create kabuto omnipotence then limit it ?


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## Alex Payne (Sep 16, 2015)

I didn't do a thing. Simply disagreed with your evaluation of CE Gaara. Everything else is in your head. You are thinking about it the wrong way. It is not "what exactly Kabuto meant". It is "why" he said. And when he said, who was he talking to. What was the reason behind Kishi's choice. 

Kabuto was talking to Orochimaru. Who had the same knowledge about Kimimaro(if not more). Same knowledge about the current situation(if not more). More knowledge about everything else. What was the reason behind Kabuto telling Oro about things he is already aware of. Kabuto wanted to reassure him. It's the same thing as when Kabuto was hyping Sandaime when Orochimaru was lamenting his current situation. He'd say a lot of dubious stuff to simply make Oro feel better when things aren't going according to plan. 

And now think about why Kishi decided to write that dialog. Because he likes cheap hype for newly introduced characters, that's why. "Never lost a battle", "No one survived that jutsu", "can't die", "flawless defense", "no weak points", "can't be beat". That's what Kishi does when introducing new stuff. Always. So always check for context - what characters are involved, the nature of this particular Arc. 

In this particular case we have an arc solely dedicated to Rookies. Their fights. That statement is cheap suspense. Kids are barely winning/suiciding vs S4. Introduce a new guy and slap "no one can stop him". We have decade+ of reading Naruto. Yet still want to buy trash-statements like that one because character we like is involved. It's time to wake up imo.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I didn't do a thing. Simply disagreed with your evaluation of CE Gaara. Everything else is in your head. You are thinking about it the wrong way. It is not "what exactly Kabuto meant". It is "why" he said. And when he said, who was he talking to. What was the reason behind Kishi's choice.
> 
> Kabuto was talking to Orochimaru. Who had the same knowledge about Kimimaro(if not more). Same knowledge about the current situation(if not more). More knowledge about everything else. What was the reason behind Kabuto telling Oro about things he is already aware of. Kabuto wanted to reassure him. It's the same thing as when Kabuto was hyping Sandaime when Orochimaru was lamenting his current situation. He'd say a lot of dubious stuff to simply make Oro feel better when things aren't going according to plan.
> 
> ...



so then kishi gave kabuto omnipotence in order to hype kimimaro fair enough
however his statement holds no one sent rookies or their backup could stop kimimaro 

that includes gaara who by feats is easily superior to asuma or part 1 gai 

gaara himself admitted he would have died to kimimaro 

so regardless of context here the fact is kimimaro was well above all involved in that arc. 

also don't forget kabuto said if kimimaro was there during the hiruzen battle things would have gone very differently. again u can call it pointless hype however u forget 2 things

1) kidomaru one of the sound 4 fodderized 2 anbu (jounin ninja btw)
2) kimimaro by feats and hype was well above all involved in that arc

considering kidomaru couldn't fodderize neji doesn't that put neji above the likes of the 2 anbu kidomaru trolled

one more thing the sound 4 saw kakashi and felt they could take him on. If they were so weak wouldn't they just see him and and run scared. go back to the panel they seem confident to take him on. however didn't want to draw a scene 


I think mostly u ignore feats if u think what jounin showed in part 1 is well above any of the sound 4, when we have kidomaru by himself trolling jounin


sorry I am going on a lot 
but by feats

gaara, kimimaro are well above what jounin showed in part 1. 

its also quite silly to assume things like garoga doesn't easily push kiba level above genin, or chidori in sasuke case or the fact that gaara as a kid could kill jounin already


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

shunshin-like movements

Kidomaru trolling jounin . With 1 simple attack

also if we compare CE arc sasuke to kakashi

kakashi would only be about twice as strong and he is elite jounin

sasuke could pull off 2 chidori while kakashi said his chakra levels only allowed him 4. 

vote sasuke could pull off 3. so if we even talk chakra level wise the elite tier jounin kakashi was only about a little stronger than vote sasuke 

and that's elite. compared to sasuke who has a very similar skill set. 

now if we compare lee to gai, another genin to an elite. I think its quite obvious gai is well above lee, however no one can suggest base gai at the time was well above 5th gate lee 

what needs to be considered is similar skill set as well, when comparing genin level to jounin level

as shown above kidomaru could troll jounin because they didn't have the skill set to deal with his technique, neji a genin could. 

maybe raido and genma simply had the right combination of skill set to deal with the sound 4. 

the same way genin Naruto being able to summon gamabunta made him have the right skill said to deal with gaara when he transformed, something the likes of zabuza an elite jounin would have laughably died against 

here people are just blindly think about level, if u don't have the right skill set to beat the sound 4. they wont be getting trolled. 

using only taijutsu doesn't grant these people with the necessary skill set. however unrestricted of course the moop because they do have more than the right skill set in fact

*hidan skill set would make even part 1 gaara treat hidan like a fodder, despite the perceived level difference. *

while genin rock lee who level wise is well below hidan is faaaaar more of a threat


ps: kurenai who became a jounin in part 1 and was considered strong enough to be. would get her shit kicked in very horribly by the sound 4. disgustingly so...

again she doesn't have an adequate skill set to deal with them.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 16, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> How did Kabuto get dragged into this?
> 
> Try to stay on-topic, guys.
> 
> @Joakim3: No flamethrowers; Sasori may only use his bodily weapons, which means the stuff that is directly, physically attached to him (e.g., blades and stomach cable). Also, I intended for Jiongu to be restricted, so I went ahead and clarified that in the OP.



Damn  ....still Sasori flies around and slaughters them via harpoons, and wing blades. The fact he can't be caught in a genjutsu only trolls team fodder 4 that much more 

Kakuzu still has CqC of keeping on par with Kakashi, and foddering Choji & Ino. He child stomps the sound 4 from 5m lol


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

is there any proof sasori cant be caught in genjutsu 

also hiruko is entirely useless in a situation where jirobo gets the dome jutsu up 

hiruko has no movement speed to speak of. 

don't get how a puppet so weak is hyped. I don't see any chunin knowing its poisoned not being able to defeat it


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## Matty (Sep 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> is there any proof sasori cant be caught in genjutsu
> 
> also hiruko is entirely useless in a situation where jirobo gets the dome jutsu up
> 
> ...



No proof but logically, his eyes and ears being that of a puppet's and him having no touch sense all lead me to believe his senses are not normal and do not perceive the world as human senses would. He most likely can't taste, as he doesn't eat, and he can't smell. So he is already missing 3 senses, Even though he can perceive things around him it doesn't necessarily mean he does it the same way as normal humans would. If sasori can be affected by sound/sight genjutsu when everything on his body is puppet, by his own admission, and the only living part is the core that emanates chakra, then that means Itachi's genjutsu would never need anyone to look at his finger or to have eye contact. And the same goes for sound genjutsu, as even if you covered your ears the sound would just scramble your chakra circulatory system. It just seems like more of a reach to say that he is affected by genjutsu. I don't see any openings for the genjutsu to actually enter and activate.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> No proof but logically, his eyes and ears being that of a puppet's and him having no touch sense all lead me to believe his senses are not normal and do not perceive the world as human senses would. He most likely can't taste, as he doesn't eat, and he can't smell. So he is already missing 3 senses, Even though he can perceive things around him it doesn't necessarily mean he does it the same way as normal humans would. If sasori can be affected by sound/sight genjutsu when everything on his body is puppet, by his own admission, and the only living part is the core that emanates chakra, then that means Itachi's genjutsu would never need anyone to look at his finger or to have eye contact. And the same goes for sound genjutsu, as even if you covered your ears the sound would just scramble your chakra circulatory system. It just seems like more of a reach to say that he is affected by genjutsu. I don't see any openings for the genjutsu to actually enter and activate.



he still sees doesn't he?

he still hears doesn't he? or how does he respond to people. his senses are just fine and good to be messed with 

unless u can explain to me how he responds to people or how he sees. 

he cant smell, that much is true. however he can see and hear 

so really sounds fan fic to me

all he needs to be fooled is the ability to hear which he can or see which he can 

otherwise he wouldn't be able to respond as shown in the manga. u cant respond to a conversation if u didn't hear it or fight back as shown in the manga


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## Sadgoob (Sep 16, 2015)

IMO Hiruko is a tank and not particularly evasive. He'd be caught in the web like the ANBU captain. Kidomaru solos. ​


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

lol strat
agreed kidomaru himself could solo


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## Stermor (Sep 16, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Like the title says.
> 
> *Location:* Chuunin Exams Finals
> *Distance:* 5m, surrounded
> ...



4 casual kunai throws(or punches) and they all die.. some of these guys don't even require movement to kill them. pure killing intent could probebly kill them..



Icegaze said:


> is there any proof sasori cant be caught in genjutsu
> 
> also hiruko is entirely useless in a situation where jirobo gets the dome jutsu up
> 
> ...



hiruko puppet tail made an elite jounin puppet master his bitch.. wtf is it with people thinking the sound 4 is doing anything to that..


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2015)

Sasori did that cuz he built the puppets kankuro was using to fight him 

Not a stretch really to see why he won easily . He knew all the tricks . That's worse than predicting attacks that's writing them down then screaming them out loud to urself


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## Joakim3 (Sep 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> is there any proof sasori cant be caught in genjutsu
> 
> also hiruko is entirely useless in a situation where jirobo gets the dome jutsu up
> 
> ...



The only _living_ thing he has is his heart (per his own statement)... _everything_ else about him is inhuman. 

There is _no_ brain to tamper with so I really don't know what else to say.


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## LostSelf (Sep 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> IMO Hiruko is a tank and not particularly evasive. He'd be caught in the web like the ANBU captain. Kidomaru solos. ​





Icegaze said:


> lol strat
> agreed kidomaru himself could solo



I'll take your words right now .


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2015)

Lol @joakim
So how does he respond to conversations if he can't hear ?

How does he fight if he can't see ?

If he can see and process the info there is something to tamper witj


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## Matty (Sep 17, 2015)

he can't breathe either but creates sounds and speaks. So he is obviously all jacked up in whatever way his body works. My point is that genjutsu has to get into your body through some sense. We know he can't feel, taste or smell. And his eyes are the eyes of a puppet, so literally the only thing that's living is the core. Everything else is not real, so that core can't receive any stimuli to actually mess up his chakra flow. HIs body must work in a completely different way than the rest of the narutoverse whether it's something like sonar or some sensing thing.


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2015)

Yh regardless of how it works he sees and can process info therefore his sight can be tampered with its that simple 
Let's not try to give him abilities he doesn't have 

He hears as he can respond . So he can be caught in genjutsu regardless of how u try to spin it

Nothing sonar love ur fan fic abilities

It's simple the puppet eyes are a medium for him to see . The puppet ears for him to hear it he can see and hear like everyone else which he can as no special means of seeing where implied then he can be fucked with the same way 

Bijuu are known as simply masses of chakra yet bleed and can be genjutsu trolled 

Sasori is no different to that 

Zestu basically hashirama cells can still be genjutsu trolled 

Edo tensei can be trolled despite being souls in a dead body


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## Stermor (Sep 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sasori did that cuz he built the puppets kankuro was using to fight him
> 
> Not a stretch really to see why he won easily . He knew all the tricks . That's worse than predicting attacks that's writing them down then screaming them out loud to urself



does that really matter though? do you think te sound 4 are going to do something that suprises sasori at all? 

second do you think the sound 4 can even move remotly as fast a kankuro can.. 

thridly hiruko got destroyed by a punch from sakura.. do any of the sound 4 got even close to the strentgh of a punch from sakura.. who btw got helped by chiyo to even get close.. 

the sound 4 are fucked really really badly.. they are to slow, they are not strong enough to break hiruko. and they sure as hell are not going to do anything sasori hasn't seen before.. 

this fight will end just like every other fight between kages and the sound 4.. either they faint from the killing intent.. or a casual kunia throw..



Icegaze said:


> Yh regardless of how it works he sees and can process info therefore his sight can be tampered with its that simple
> Let's not try to give him abilities he doesn't have
> 
> He hears as he can respond . So he can be caught in genjutsu regardless of how u try to spin it
> ...



seriously genjutsu from tayuya is not working on anyone at all.. does anyone really believe that if pre skip shikemaru had no trouble figuring out how to get our sasori will have any difficulty.. lol he probebly has good enough chakra control to instantly dispel it..  

also because bijuu got genjutsu trolled by the most powerful users of genjutsu ever.. doesn't really mean jack shit for tayuya.. 

you are massivly overrating a bunch of chuunin lol.. sound 4 have very weak physical stats.. in base they got owned and blitzed by pre skip sasuke.. which pretty much means pretty much every kage can casually blitz them.. in cs 2 there abilities where canceled out by genin who had only 6 months experience. 
they had some weird abilities.. but really nothing impressive.. 

tayuya genjutsu, took shikemaru no real effort to break.. 
kidomaro's arrows+web probebly the best abilties. but still they have no feats of holding people stronger then a genin (an anbu captain jumping into them means nothing) arrows while quite nice don't have the damage potenial to hurt anyone strong.. nor are they fast enough to do anything.. neji while half dead managed to move while the arrow was touching him.. every jounin worth his salt just grabs them out of the air.. 
the other 2 are even worse.. they have no ranged abilities.. and not enough speed to do anything.. defenition of cannon fodder...


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2015)

Stermor said:


> does that really matter though? do you think te sound 4 are going to do something that suprises sasori at all?
> 
> second do you think the sound 4 can even move remotly as fast a kankuro can..
> 
> ...


..

 

they are slower however less predictable since for one. there is 4 of them. 2 they have abilities sasori knows nothing about unlike kankuro whose entire arsenal was written by sasori and signed off 

lol not gonna bother with u. hiruko has no speed at all to mention. 

lol any scans of them fainting ? odd fodders fucking fodders didn't faint on seeing madara. 



> seriously genjutsu from tayuya is not working on anyone at all.. does anyone really believe that if pre skip shikemaru had no trouble figuring out how to get our sasori will have any difficulty.. lol he probebly has good enough chakra control to instantly dispel it..



claim with no proof but ok




> also because bijuu got genjutsu trolled by the most powerful users of genjutsu ever.. doesn't really mean jack shit for tayuya..



. point is sasori can be genjutsu



> you are massivly overrating a bunch of chuunin lol.. sound 4 have very weak physical stats.. in base they got owned and blitzed by pre skip sasuke.. which pretty much means pretty much every kage can casually blitz them.. in cs 2 there abilities where canceled out by genin who had only 6 months experience.
> they had some weird abilities.. but really nothing impressive..



ok u don't have to respond to me though. so we will leave it at that. 




> tayuya genjutsu, took shikemaru no real effort to break..
> kidomaro's arrows+web probebly the best abilties. but still they have no feats of holding people stronger then a genin (an anbu captain jumping into them means nothing) arrows while quite nice don't have the damage potenial to hurt anyone strong.. nor are they fast enough to do anything.. neji while half dead managed to move while the arrow was touching him.. every jounin worth his salt just grabs them out of the air..
> the other 2 are even worse.. they have no ranged abilities.. and not enough speed to do anything.. defenition of cannon fodder...



yes he broke it. no one is assuming her genjutsu cant be broken. by while breaking it. anyone is very open to being attacked by the others. 

lol they held anbu who are jounin 

it will easily hold hiruko since he has absolutely no way to cut the webs. 

hiruko is the definition of canon fodder. 

but like I said all akatsuki using their full abilities murk. restricted to taijutsu some will get hilariously killed. 

entirely foolish to think konan can outdo them in taijutsu with no feats or abilities or hype to back it up 

she is strong due to her abilities, not her non existent taijutsu feats.


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## Stermor (Sep 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ..
> 
> 
> 
> they are slower however less predictable since for one. there is 4 of them. 2 they have abilities sasori knows nothing about unlike kankuro whose entire arsenal was written by sasori and signed off



you really think 4 people means jack shit when he fights wit 100 puppets at the same time all moving shitloads faster then sound 4.. are you seriously suggesting the master of micromanagement is going to lose track of 4 slow ass people?? 



Icegaze said:


> lol not gonna bother with u. hiruko has no speed at all to mention.



hiruko's tail blitzed kankuro... which is by far a better feat then all the sound 4 ave combinened.. you should provide proof the sound four can even detect movement from hiruko lol... 



Icegaze said:


> lol any scans of them fainting ? odd fodders fucking fodders didn't faint on seeing madara.



it was a joke... they are so outclassed that these guys don't even have to jack shit to them.. just to illustrate the idiocy of putting them up against kages.. 

claim with no proof but ok[/QUOTE]

its a claim sure but even you got to understand a kage lvl shinobi isn't likely to fall to some random fodder genjutsu(which it is, regardless of the good method of transmision)



Icegaze said:


> . point is sasori can be genjutsu



i don't actually know but i don't think it matters one sec.. 



Icegaze said:


> yes he broke it. no one is assuming her genjutsu cant be broken. by while breaking it. anyone is very open to being attacked by the others.



that is only if he doesn't break it faster then they can capitalize on the opening.. which she couldn't even do against shikemaru.. so what chance do they have against sasori.. 



Icegaze said:


> lol they held anbu who are jounin


no they blocked an anbu who jumped into the nets.. we have no clue if they held for a second.. please don't suggest they can hold anbu when never shown to.. 
it will easily hold hiruko since he has absolutely no way to cut the webs.  again provide proof he can't break them.. neji did it easily.. by overpowering them with chakra.. hell provide proof sasori doesn't just take them over with chakra strings.... 



Icegaze said:


> hiruko is the definition of canon fodder.



no...



Icegaze said:


> but like I said all akatsuki using their full abilities murk. restricted to taijutsu some will get hilariously killed.



nooo they are up against a bunch of chuunin lvl people with weak ass physical stats.. they can't even see most of the akatsuki move if they go a little fast.. 



Icegaze said:


> entirely foolish to think konan can outdo them in taijutsu with no feats or abilities or hype to back it up



she reacted to obito though.. which means she is so laughable much faster then (just like the rest of the akatsuki) that she can dance circles arround the till tey drop dead.. 




Icegaze said:


> she is strong due to her abilities, not her non existent taijutsu feats.


true her abilities make her a kage, her physical skill we have very little clues about.. other then casually running circles arround sakura and reacting to obito.. but that is more then enough to know she is much faster then te sound 4...


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2015)

Stermor said:


> you really think 4 people means jack shit when he fights wit 100 puppets at the same time all moving shitloads faster then sound 4.. are you seriously suggesting the master of micromanagement is going to lose track of 4 slow ass people??



do u mean the guy who couldn't hit sakura who failed to avoid kabuto flying butt? 

then yes he isn't going to be hitting all for with a much much shittier puppet. 



> hiruko's tail blitzed kankuro... which is by far a better feat then all the sound 4 ave combinened.. you should provide proof the sound four can even detect movement from hiruko lol...



good thing 3 of them have ranged techniques. well well out of hiruko tail range. nice try though

lol u should provide proof a featless tail from a stationary puppet can hit targets not running into it




> it was a joke... they are so outclassed that these guys don't even have to jack shit to them.. just to illustrate the idiocy of putting them up against kages..







> claim with no proof but ok



see above



> its a claim sure but even you got to understand a kage lvl shinobi isn't likely to fall to some random fodder genjutsu(which it is, regardless of the good method of transmision)



if only she were random fodder. so kabuto decided to assimilate the abilities of fodder? odd how with ur imagined sage enhancement an EMS user needed help breaking out of it

EMS sasuke is in a different stratosphere compared to hiruko



> i don't actually know but i don't think it matters one sec..



see above




> that is only if he doesn't break it faster then they can capitalize on the opening.. which she couldn't even do against shikemaru.. so what chance do they have against sasori..



see above 



> no they blocked an anbu who jumped into the nets.. we have no clue if they held for a second.. please don't suggest they can hold anbu when never shown to..
> it will easily hold hiruko since he has absolutely no way to cut the webs.  again provide proof he can't break them.. neji did it easily.. by overpowering them with chakra.. hell provide proof sasori doesn't just take them over with chakra strings....



the anbu are pinned to the roof. in the same scan ....which initially u claimed only 1 anbu was caught 

 

lol yes neji followed chakra in his hands and body....PLEASE TO GOD provide proof of hiruko tail following chakra

chakra strings however Is the only useful argument  u have ever presented. to that I agree. kudos...now u sound like u have a brain. 




> no...
> 
> 
> 
> nooo they are up against a bunch of chuunin lvl people with weak ass physical stats.. they can't even see most of the akatsuki move if they go a little fast..



yes with all of konan speed feats right.ooops wait she got none



> she reacted to obito though.. which means she is so laughable much faster then (just like the rest of the akatsuki) that she can dance circles arround the till tey drop dead..



reacting =/= movement speed at all.....nice try though

shame u couldn't sound smart nearly long enough 



> true her abilities make her a kage, her physical skill we have very little clues about.. other then casually running circles arround sakura and reacting to obito.. but that is more then enough to know she is much faster then te sound 4...


she ran circles round sakura? scans please...omg fan fic ongoing here


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## Joakim3 (Sep 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol @joakim
> So how does he respond to conversations if he can't hear ?
> 
> How does he fight if he can't see ?
> ...



I machine can hear, a machine can see and a machine can process information.... all without being human. 

_Genjutsu: A genjutsu is created when a ninja controls the chakra flow of a target's cerebral nervous system, thereby affecting their five senses._ (something back up'd by every canon feat)

Sasori _lacks a brain_... aka a cerebral nervous system. He flat out stated the only thing of his that is biological is his heart... there is _zero_ evidence genjutsu can work on a being like Sasori. 

For all we know Sasori's heart can simply be a running a pseudo mechanical body that his conscious/soul resides in, controlling everything via chakra alone. With the sole exception of Kakuzu there is _no-one_ in the manga that holds a candle stick to the lvl of wtf anatomy as Sasori


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## David (Sep 17, 2015)

I agree with Joakim here because as inconsistent as he is, I just can't see Kishi flat-out ignoring what Genjutsu does.

Nardo for the most part  doesn't have to make sense when it comes to biology and stuff.

How did Hidan talk without being connected to his body?
How did Hidan move around without a problem in the world after having his ribs crushed by 2 giant shuriken?
How did Jiraiya genjutsu corpses?

But lacking a brain is just on another level of fucked up Genjutsu-counter.



> do u mean the guy who couldn't hit sakura who failed to avoid kabuto flying butt?



Chiyo was controlling Sakura and I mean although you could argue that it was just Kishi being fancy and Sakura could have dodged Hiruko's attacks by herself without the explicit help (I hope you don't, personally), if she could have dodged by herself Kishi would have most likely drawn that  because Sakura completed med nin training and it was a great opportunity for him to show off her improved solo dodging skill.


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2015)

> Joakim3 said:
> 
> 
> > I machine can hear, a machine can see and a machine can process information.... all without being human.
> ...


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2015)

David said:


> I agree with Joakim here because as inconsistent as he is, I just can't see Kishi flat-out ignoring what Genjutsu does.
> 
> Nardo for the most part  doesn't have to make sense when it comes to biology and stuff.
> 
> ...



fact remains sasori himself clearly says sakura was reading his attacks. the same girl that couldn't see a flying butt coming at her


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## Joakim3 (Sep 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes and a machine hearing can be toyed with If u speak to fast or unclearly and the mic don't pick up the info can it not?



Except what you explained was a machine not being able to compute fast enough to register.. i.e more in parallel with reactionary/computation speed of the target

Genjutsu requires an _actual neural network_ to function for the effects to start



Icegaze said:


> and explain the process of how sight to reaction works then
> 
> or are we saying sasori heart senses movement in the air then?



God knows how... It's like explain how Nagato can _see_ through his Pein Rikudo via chakra alone... something that by any and all known means should be quite literally impossible?

I'd stick on the cautionary side and assume that Sasori's heart retains his conscious/mind and everything else is simply tool he senses his world through



Icegaze said:


> yet he can think. ....if he can think and respond to outside stimulus said stimulus can be fucked with



Yeah when there is a central nervous center. 

It's no different then trying to explaining how Kakuzu can be made up of countless threads with no visible organs baring his heart(s)

Anime logic my friend 



Icegaze said:


> anything that can react to outside stimulus can be fooled
> 
> a jelly fish has no brain yet wont run into the same wall in an aquarium twice. however change the flow in the water and shit the wall just abit and the jelly fish would run into it
> 
> hence u messed with its sensings..beings can process info and respond to stimulus without a brain



I Jelly fish _still has a nervous system_ to interact with the world. Sasori doesn't even have that. 

He is _literally_ a heart, chakra.


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2015)

And anime logic like u said would dictate that Sasori isn't immune to genjutsu 
Since the author didn't say so 

Being just a heart container doesn't grant said immunity 

Pain paths also lack a neural network yet can be genjutsu trolled 

So in very fact Sasori will get trolled by genjutsu


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> And anime logic like u said would dictate that Sasori isn't immune to genjutsu
> Since the author didn't say so
> 
> Being just a heart container doesn't grant said immunity
> ...



What I said was that regarding biology, Naruto in particular doesn't make sense.  I did not say that every character in the manga does not have immunity to genjutsu.  Those are 2 completely different arguments.

All I had to prove is that people in Naruto are capable of having fucked up, _nonsensical _physiologies, which was relevant because you suggested that Sasori must have a brain.

At best, taking from what was said, you could say, "Because Pain bodies are dead and should not have working brains, they should not have been susceptible to Genjutsu.  Pain bodies were still susceptible to genjutsu, showing that no one in the manga is immune to genjutu" because it's actually directly related to genjutsu.

And if you meant something like that, there are 3 problems with it:

(1) One could argue that Pain's "neural networks," as you refer to them, are reactivated by ninja world Rinnegan magic, which is why they can talk, bleed, fight, etc.

(2) One could also argue that what applies to that particular circumstance does not apply to every circumstance (cbb to look up the fallacy of assuming it)

(3) One could also argue that having a puppet body capable of being blown apart and magically reconnecting itself with a heart canister that controls puppets is a greater exception to the norm than dead bodies moving around like regular people that bleed and die when they're stabbed (with the obvious exception of Asura Path).

Oh also, regarding Sakura's flying butt, RM Naruto got his leg caught in the ground and needed crutches.  _Part 1 VoTE_ Naruto and Sasuke, Immortals Arc Kakashi, Base Naruto's neck against Pain, and countless other characters who couldn't touch the bottom of RM Naruto's foot in durability took more damage than that like it was nothing.  Taking an instance that happened for plot reasons and using it as a feat to prove something isn't the best way to go about proving things.  

I mean, we all know Sakura sucks dong and love hating her, but the Kabuto's flying butt thing had (1) a completely unquantifiable speed (seriously, it was plot and who it's just a weird ass thing to use as a feat)  and (2) using that type of feat to prove Sakura is slow is just awkward and makes it look like you're out to make her look slow even if it's a really crappy feat to use to prove something.


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2015)

Sasori can talk , hear and see 
Enough said if dead bodies can be caught . Pain bodies and ET 
Sasori mind gets trolled

Ps: ninja magic allows ET to be blown to bits and simply reform yet said ET can be and has been genjutsu mindraped hard 
So hard itachi genjutsu'd himself 

If that can happen Sasori is getting so played with it should be censored 

Why granted ET some chakra brain through ninja magic and not Sasori who responds the same way as everyone 

The guy could flow chakra in his finger tips . Clearly the heart canister makes the puppet he is in alive . The same way Nagato chakra makes pain bodies alive 

Different method same exactly principle


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## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2015)

Biju have also been caught even though they're chakra constructs.


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

@Ice - let's just agree to disagree at this point

@Strat - Bijuu at least have physical bodies that feel pain though whereas Sasori is literally made out of pieces of puppet and doesn't feel pain except when his heart canister is hit.  Even Pain - albeit "dead" - at least goes "Guh," "Ugh," etc. except Demon Realm which is a cyborg.  And even Demon Realm bleeds.

The Sanbi was knocked unconscious by an explosion.
If you cut off the Kyuubi's physical head, it'll die.

Sasori on a completely different level of messed up physiology compared to all the above.  Imo he's one of the exceptions to the general rule that even people with messed up physiologies can get genjutsu'd.

Similar to how I think Gai is an exception to the rule that a single punch from a very strong character won't turn x ninja into bloody mist but only severely damage them.  He's on a different level of strength, just like Sasori's on a different level of "look how fucked up I am, I'm literally a tool and I don't feel anything."


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

>Shukaku made completely of sand, void of blood, organs or a brain, and 6 tails slug that BM Naruto put his fist through the face of and did not bleed was caught
>Edo Zombies without vitals, a brain or blood flow/no blood in general were caught 
>White Zetsu, an entity with no brain, vitals or blood flow was caught by EMS Sasuke with Sharingan Genjutsu
>Dead Remote Control Pain Bodies with no confirmed brain activity or soul (consciousness) were caught
>Sasori who bleeds from the mouth of his puppet, speaks, hears, sees, and displays cognition will not get caught because he lacks an active brain- despite all of the above entities not having an active brain and yet still being caught

>He can be caught


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

Oh I missed that Sasori bled from his mouth.

But that could be explained because of how he made his puppets (use parts of the original body, drag out the entrails, etc.).

In any case, I'd stand by my original thought - Kishi doesn't think much of the time about physiology and many things don't make sense, but I view Sasori as an exception because Kishi actually emphasized very directly how on-a-completely-different-dimension messed up his body was.

We should make a poll on it.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

He's not an exception, as I've already proven with 5 separate examples.

A poll is pointless, we have examples of brainless entities being put in an illusion in the manga.


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

That doesn't make any sense.  There are plenty of fucked up people in Naruto that can be genjutsu'd, I've implied that a million times.

_The *definition* of exception is that it's an *exception*._


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

Your argument is he lacks a brain or active brain, and thus cannot be put in Genjutsu. 

>Shukaku doesn't have a brain, and if he did, he doesn't have blood to make it active (sand body)
>There is no proof Pain Bodies have an active brain, and if they did, they're not alive to use it- the guy kilometers away in a tower/mountain out of Genjutsu range is
>Edo Zombies do not have a brain, and if they did they don't have blood to make it active
>White Zetsu Clones do not have a brain, and if they did they don't have blood to make it active 
>All were caught

Please provide additional reasoning why Sasori is not caught, because the brain argument was countered


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

But the fact of the matter is that none of those guys are like Sasori.  You can't prove me flat-out wrong if you don't have a panel of a body just like Sasori's falling susceptible to genjutsu.  For God's sake, all we're doing is* speculating* a fictional world of magic.

If Shukaku had its head chopped off, it would not function.  Also Bijuu feel pain.
If Pain bodies had their head chopped off, they would not function.  Pain feels pain because of all the "guh!" "ughs!" etc.
If an Edo Tensei had its head chopped off, it would not function without regeneration
White Zetsu was very fucked up, but felt pain as evidenced by their reactions to Sauce owning them
Hidan at least feels pain

Sasori confirmed:

- is a doll made out of building blocks
- his heart canister is the only part of him that feels anything
- never showed physical pain (besides when his heart canister was stabbed, I guess)
- can function after its head is chopped off without any regeneration

For Christ's sake, let it be as *"We can only speculate."*  I can't prove 100% that Sasori is immune to genjutsu and you can't prove 100% that genjutsu would affect him.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

Right, now you're changing your argument.

Made-up rules from David:
>If you cannot function without a head, you're not immune to Genjutsu
>If you feel pain (neurological transmission from nerves around the body to the brain) you're not immune to Genjutsu

Okay, let's counter this. 

>Hidan talks, thinks, sees and hears with a chopped off head
>He is not immune to Genjutsu

>Please prove that Sasori with a disattached puppet head can talk, see, hear, think and move (function)
>Please explain how being hit in the face and not saying anything or making an expression is proof that he cannot feel pain, because there are SEVERAL examples of shinobi tanking an attack without talking or a face expression 
>Please explain how this is not pain [1]

>Edo Zombies do not feel pain, please provide proof that they do

>Genjutsu has nothing to do with whether or not you function without your head or whether or not you feel pain


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

Changed my argument from what to what?  I always had more than one argument from the beginning if you go back far enough and can quote myself if needed.

And I can't be bothered to keep replying to this and will just leave it up to others.  I don't have the time and I don't want to keep debating about something we can only speculate about.

Edit: Oh nice edit.  Those aren't my rules btw, those are things that I speculate based off what has happened in the manga.

I don't assume I know everything about the manga like most other people do and actually consider that I could be wrong sometimes.  More people should try it.

On second thought, I really can't be fucked to keep responding about this.  I have the feeling that I'm debating with people/someone who don't/doesn't let it go (or even allow "leaving it up to speculation" to be a possibility) no matter what right now and can't be bothered responding.

I'll make a thread for people to speculate about it but I said what I wanted to and any more would probably just go in circles and waste my time and patience.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

He can't function without a head, all he can do is shoot his heart out and enter another puppet- and he hasn't even proven to be capable of that without a head attached prior to utilizing the transfer technique. If he didn't need a head to operate, he wouldn't bother reconstructing the puppet with the head when he shot his heart out.

According to feats, he cannot talk, see, hear, think or mold chakra without a puppet head attached to his body. That covers the basis' of functioning as far as I'm concerned. 

He felt pain, he was stabbed and his expression changed. 

Your counters to brain-less entities being put into Genjutsu was a beheading would stop them and they still feel pain.

Great, Sasori has shown both, so according to your rules (not the manga's which states Genjutsu is employed on the brain) he is vulnerable to Genjutsu.


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

I swear that I have counters to everything you say but can't be bothered going back and forth for hours about it, sorry.

Oh fuck it FOR CHRIST'S SAKE, I SAID THE CANISTER IS THE EXCEPTION TO HIS FEELING PAIN A MILLION TIMES.



> - his heart canister is the only part of him that feels anything
> - never showed physical pain (besides when his heart canister was stabbed, I guess)




And many other times, seriously I can't be bothered to reply to everything you type.  And there are other things you're doing wrong but I seriously can't be bothered.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

So because he doesn't show pain if the plastic parts of his body are damaged he's not vulnerable to Genjutsu?

So now you have to show pain in every part of your body to be vulnerable to Genjutsu?

I love your rules David.


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## Aduro (Sep 18, 2015)

Sasori definitely has a sense of touch, without if you cant even tell if you are holding and throwing an object properly, let alone manipulate a puppet. As Sasori moved his "Third" puppet with strings attached to his "Sasori" puppet's fingers I'd say he could clearly feel and react when it made contact. He might not feel "pain" if he limited the sense of touch but he clearly has some kind of nerves linking his "heart" to the eyes, ears and touch of his puppet bodies.



David said:


> Sasori confirmed:
> 
> - is a doll made out of building blocks
> - his heart canister is the only part of him that feels anything
> ...



Let me fix that.
Sasori confirmed:

- controls a doll made originally out of a human body so it can use chakra like all human puppets
- can feel through his puppet bodies hands
- is probably not dumb enough to think there's no difference between not feeling intense pain and having the sense of touch of a man dying of leprosy
- can manipulate the functional body parts of the body he's in without the head necessarily being important as his brain is in the tube in his head


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

Please stop.  The sad truth is that even if I did reply to you with sensible responses, you would have a reply ready, probably longer than the last one.

*DaVizWiz, now all you're doing trying to look smart and "win the debate" by pursuing the topic when I said I won't debate back about it because I can't be bothered, which I said a million times.  For the last time, I can't be bothered debating about it so stop pursuing it.  I've done the whole dozen page long debate thing in the past and am not going to do it again about something so fucking insignificant and irrelevant to me.  I have a job, school, girlfriend, and many responsibilities which require both time and patience.  This debate is not worth my time or patience and I've already used up a lot of both telling you that I'm done.  I can tell you won't let up no matter how much I counter.  Stop beating a dead horse because I'm done here.*


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## Aduro (Sep 18, 2015)

David said:


> DaVizWiz, do you seriously expect me to keep replying to everything you post about all the fallacies you're using?  The sad truth is that even if I did, you would have a reply ready, probably longer than the last one.
> 
> *Now all you're doing trying to look smart by pursuing the topic when I said I won't debate back about it because I can't be bothered, which I said a million times.  For the last time, I can't be bothered debating about it so stop pursuing it.  I've done the whole dozen page long debate thing in the past and am not going to do it again about something so fucking insignificant and irrelevant to me.  I have a job, school, a girlfriend, and many responsibilities which require both time and patience.  This debate is not worth my time or patience.  I can tell you won't let up no matter how much I counter.  Stop beating a dead horse because I'm done here.*



But you started a second thread about it...


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## David (Sep 18, 2015)

So I could get others' opinions later on because I was tired of debating with DaVizWiz, and it was before he kept pursuing it after I said I was done.  I said that already.

Before, I could be bothered to learn more about what others think but tbh I got so pissed off by his pursuing it for ages that I don't really care anymore.  I was kind of tired of it by the time I made the thread, but I already got all the screenies ready which took a good amount of effort and thought why not contribute a thread about a topic which people are probably curious about.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

You stepped into the thread and voiced your opinion, are you expecting no one to reply in disagreement?

What you believe as it pertains to these characters is your concern, I disagreed with you and posted my concerns. This is a battledome debate thread, until two posters agree there will continue to be conflicting arguments. 

If you don't want to participate further then don't. I'm not even baiting you to reply nor did I suggest you were wrong at any point, I simply replied to your reply. If you don't want me to reply, then don't say shit like "your post is full of fallacies" because that's literally begging for a reply dude


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## Aduro (Sep 18, 2015)

David said:


> So I could get others' opinions later on because I was tired of debating with DaVizWiz, and it was before he kept pursuing it after I said I was done.  I said that already.



Well, my opinion is that DaViz is pretty much right, Sasori had to have at least some sense of touch in his puppet body to function at all and he had to receive sensory information into his brain-like core, meaning that confusing those senses with something like Tayuya's flute should temporarily affect the way Sasori thinks, at least in principle.


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## Joakim3 (Sep 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> And anime logic like u said would dictate that Sasori isn't immune to genjutsu
> Since the author didn't say so



Does the other have to explicitly state something for there to be sufficient logical consensus. Kishi didn't have to explain Nagato is stronger than Konohamaru... but we don't argue that notion



Icegaze said:


> Being just a heart container doesn't grant said immunity



The implications of it suggest it would as genjutsu directly targets the _central nervous system_



Icegaze said:


> Pain paths also lack a neural network yet can be genjutsu trolled
> 
> So in very fact Sasori will get trolled by genjutsu



The _Pein Rikudo_ very much have a central nervous system as at their core they are people that Nagato simply reanimates their bodies into a pseudo living condition. They simply have no conscious and can't feel pain, but their bodies do bleed, sweat etc..

very different than just being a pile of flesh/heart in canister


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## Matty (Sep 19, 2015)

The pain thing is bullshit. It's shared vision/hearing which is why Nagato experiences the genjutsu, their bodies function as normal people would without pain.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

We getting no where with this 
Kishi didn't say Sasori was immune therefore he isn't 
Why state in DB rinnegan makes you immune to ocular genjutsu but not mention anything about Sasori immunity 
Fan fic is what it is guys


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## Matty (Sep 19, 2015)

I would assume because the Rinnegan plays a vastly superior role in the plot than Sasori. He probably did not state whether he was or wasn't because he was fighting Sakura and Chiyo who don't use any genjutsu. Saying he isnt because Kishi didn't writing is a bit of fanfic if you ask me. Like I said you can't definitively say he is or isn't. IMO he isn't but I see why some people would think that way. It will just end up being an endless debate. Some one just has to bite the bullet and go ask Kishi at Comic Con this year


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

Lol kk
Well he isn't till proven otherwise 
U gotta be proven guilty of something to be 
Don't u


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## David (Sep 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> You stepped into the thread and voiced your opinion, are you expecting no one to reply in disagreement?
> 
> What you believe as it pertains to these characters is your concern, I disagreed with you and posted my concerns. This is a battledome debate thread, until two posters agree there will continue to be conflicting arguments.
> 
> If you don't want to participate further then don't. I'm not even baiting you to reply nor did I suggest you were wrong at any point, I simply replied to your reply. If you don't want me to reply, then don't say shit like "your post is full of fallacies" because that's literally begging for a reply dude



Sorry, I got ticked off because I felt like you misinterpreted what my argument was and made me sound stupid when I said many times that I did not have the time to keep replying and knew that I could not correct what I felt was your misinterpretation for at least several days.

By the time I said your post was full of fallacies, it was after my saying that I was done so I lost my cool and said that even though I shouldn't have (not because I didn't believe it, but because I shouldn't have said it when I wasn't planning to get into detail about it).

Not much more to say besides I apologize for my behavior.

On the topic of the thread, I actually did change my mind because of several posters in this thread and the other one and think it's up for discussion, and not as closed-ended as I thought it to be.


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## toadmasterrace (Oct 1, 2015)

I don't get it. Just use some common sense. 

On one hand, you have members of the Akatsuki, some of the most powerful ninja alive, who are capable of capturing tailed beasts, killing kage's, and murking entire villages.

On the other hand, you have 4 sound ninja who are each pushed to their limits and ultimately defeated by a couple of genin/chunin. 

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if every Akatsuki member rofl stomped these chumps. Maybe Konan loses since she can't use her paper transformation.

I mean these guys are revered for their strength throughout the shinobi world, and people really think some lame azz sound ninja are going to be able to do anything to them? HA


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 1, 2015)

Bar Konan, all members rape sound 4.

Remember Hidan was duking it out with Asuma while he was casually avoiding Shikamaru's kage mane at the same time ? 
And Hidan is considered as one of the slower members. Sure his skillset revolves around taijutsu and his scythe gives him decent reach but stat-wise most members can replicate what he did.

And Asuma would shit on those 2 elite jounin with just his windblades and taijutsu(his main skillset is taijutsu anyways). 

So yes, sound 4 get shit on.


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