# Morgoth and his armies vs. the HST



## Endless Mike (May 15, 2011)

First age Morgoth, at the level he was when he fought Fingolfin.


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## willyvereb (May 15, 2011)

Did you read Silmarillion recently?
Anyways, Morgoth's armies win by just quality alone.


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## Riddler (May 15, 2011)

Rikudou Sennin drops the Moon on Angband


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## KaiserWombat (May 15, 2011)

Is Morgoth's horde at its composite peak? As in, are all of his most powerful and legendary minions (Gothmog and the other Balrogs, fully-mature Glaurung, Carcharoth and Drauglin, Ancalagon the Black and the other Winged Dragons, Sauron as "Gorthuar the Cruel") simultaneously alive along with his 1,500,000+ strong army of Orcs, Easterlings, Trolls, etc? (and that is merely considering the numbers present in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age: there are at least several other hosts and armies of Orcs present throughout the Silmarillion timeline)?.

Also of note is the fact that, despite it being eventually a personal grievance of J.R.R, Balrog numbers _do_ infact survive into the thousands even within his post-Lord of the Rings (and his death) editions of the Silmarillion, and that the original statement was simply written into a small margin and completely vanished from later works? Combine that with their Logia-style dispersion, ability to strike fellow dispersables with enchanted weaponry, and powerscaling from Durin's Bane in the fight against Gandalf the Grey...

Morgoth alone is roughly large hill/mountain-level in physical destructability, with the capability of rendering deep enough craters with Grond to trigger lava reservoirs ("_whence fire and smoke danced_") and a powerful continent-wide influence in corrupting and manifesting his evil energy into the very atmosphere.

Ancalagon is larger than the Thangorodrim mountain trio, with each individual mount being about 1,000 feet taller than Mt. Everest, and having a wingspan that blocks out the entire horizon from mortal eyes.

Glaurung has potent hypnotic powers against individuals and can eliminate entire multi-kilometre regions of land with his flames.

And that's only a fraction of the force described.


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## Orochibuto (May 15, 2011)

Mogoth should be able to take this. Unless RS is taken in count, I say that we should wait a few chapters to fully answer this as apparently Narutoverse is going to receive a massive power boost when Gedou Mazo absorb Kin-Gin.


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## Azrael Finalstar (May 15, 2011)

Morgoth rapes. They came here to fight a man, they did not expect to find a god.


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## Endless Mike (May 15, 2011)

KaiserWombat said:


> Is Morgoth's horde at its composite peak? As in, are all of his most powerful and legendary minions (Gothmog and the other Balrogs, fully-mature Glaurung, Carcharoth and Drauglin, Ancalagon the Black and the other Winged Dragons, Sauron as "Gorthuar the Cruel") simultaneously alive along with his 1,500,000+ strong army of Orcs, Easterlings, Trolls, etc? (and that is merely considering the numbers present in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age: there are at least several other hosts and armies of Orcs present throughout the Silmarillion timeline)?.
> 
> Also of note is the fact that, despite it being eventually a personal grievance of J.R.R, Balrog numbers _do_ infact survive into the thousands even within his post-Lord of the Rings (and his death) editions of the Silmarillion, and that the original statement was simply written into a small margin and completely vanished from later works? Combine that with their Logia-style dispersion, ability to strike fellow dispersables with enchanted weaponry, and powerscaling from Durin's Bane in the fight against Gandalf the Grey...
> 
> ...



Yes, he gets all of that.


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## Eldritch Sukima (May 15, 2011)

Should have just been Melkor at full power.


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## Geralt of Rivia (May 15, 2011)

Bleach has Earth, and they probably have nukes.


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## Riddler (May 15, 2011)

KaiserWombat said:


> Is Morgoth's horde at its composite peak? As in, are all of his most powerful and legendary minions (Gothmog and the other Balrogs, fully-mature Glaurung, Carcharoth and Drauglin, Ancalagon the Black and the other Winged Dragons, Sauron as "Gorthuar the Cruel") simultaneously alive along with his 1,500,000+ strong army of Orcs, Easterlings, Trolls, etc? (and that is merely considering the numbers present in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age: there are at least several other hosts and armies of Orcs present throughout the Silmarillion timeline)?.
> 
> Also of note is the fact that, despite it being eventually a personal grievance of J.R.R, Balrog numbers _do_ infact survive into the thousands even within his post-Lord of the Rings (and his death) editions of the Silmarillion, and that the original statement was simply written into a small margin and completely vanished from later works? Combine that with their Logia-style dispersion, ability to strike fellow dispersables with enchanted weaponry, and powerscaling from Durin's Bane in the fight against Gandalf the Grey...
> 
> ...




All of that and they still won't be able to do shit to these guys:

​


Also, Infinite Tsukuyomi powered by 9 Bijuu + Juubi + RS and Madara is serioulsy gonna mess up that 1,500,000-strong army of fodders (meaning the Orcs, Easterlings, Trolls, etc.).


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## Eldritch Sukima (May 15, 2011)

Are we counting Ungoliant as one of Morgoth's allies?


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## Orochibuto (May 15, 2011)

Riddler said:


> All of that and they still won't be able to do shit to these guys:
> 
> ​
> 
> ...



RS I think isnt taken in consideration in the matchs neither Juubi unless theya re seen. Though you could make a point about Morgoth losing via Mugen Tsukuyomi in the next weeks seening as Madara is going to cast at least a temporary version of the Mugen Tsukuyomi when he seal Kin-Gin in Gedou Mazo, but until that happen you cant use it, so wait a few weeks so you can use it on your argument.


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## Endless Mike (May 15, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Are we counting Ungoliant as one of Morgoth's allies?



Obviously yes


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## V3L0C1TY (May 15, 2011)

HST should take this. The Narutoverse could basically be used as a form of mass fodder to give the higher ups prep-time to eliminate Morgoth and his pals. 

There is still Madara's Mugen Tsukuyomi thats yet to be seen (but probably in the next few chapters), Tessai's Time Stop to give them even more prep, Kyuubi's chakra ball, Hachibi's chakra ball, Aizen's ceroes, Yama's Ennetsu Jigoku, Asgard Moria, Whitebeards quakes as well as Blackbeards Yami Yami no Mi to suck in alot of the warriors and erase them from the battlefield.

Even if the HST loses, it aint goin' down with a fight thats for sure.


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## Azrael Finalstar (May 16, 2011)

V3L0C1TY said:


> Even if the HST loses, it aint goin' down with a fight thats for sure.



i think you mean without, brah.


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## Orcist (May 16, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Should have just been Melkor at full power.



Agreed, he always gets thrown into fights when he's lost most of his demiurge Valar power. Where's the fun of using a former "angel"
when he's planet bound and already maimed and hobbling on one foot thanks to Fingolfin.


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## I3igAl (May 16, 2011)

The sheer size of Ancaron could be too much for the HSTs firepower to bring down. Mountainbusting Kyuubibombs are pretty small compared to what he should be able to tank.
Adding the fact, that Morgoth is easily more powerful and a Legion of Balrog led by Gothmog, who are immune to physical damage, will bring the HST down.


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## Riddler (May 16, 2011)

I3igAl said:


> The sheer size of Ancaron could be too much for the HSTs firepower to bring down. Mountainbusting Kyuubibombs are pretty small compared to what he should be able to tank.
> Adding the fact, that Morgoth is easily more powerful and a Legion of Balrog led by Gothmog, who are immune to physical damage, will bring the HST down.



Legion, what legion? They were retconned to at most 7. 

3 Admirals + 4 Yonkou, each at his/her prime + Yama-Jii + current Blackbeard + Golden Lion Shiki + Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra spamming Lanzas + Monster Aizen + Prime Ichigo + 1 Chibaku Tensei from a well hidden Pein should be enough firepower to put them down.

And the "1,500,000+" army of fodders in Morgoth's Army is nothing. Just considering *current * population levels, Oda's verse could swarm them in human-sized sardines and not even notice it  

Also: Mabui and Kuma could transfer exploding Deidara clones to Angband, spamming C4 Garuda; they could do the same with Alubarna-like nukes; Gedou Mazou would be out to play, and so would the 9 Bijuu/Jinchuurijki, a Maxim-powered Enel and ancient One Piece weapons, like Pluton; Tessai could stop time and he and Hachi could transfer Barragan body pieces into Dragon stomachs; the Kohaku no Jōhei could be used to seal Glaurung, who, unlike Kinkaku, doesn't know what it does...

And if the HST is allowed full cooperation from the start, they could gather blood samples from the top tiers and revive them as Edos if they were killed (with Kabuto safely stationed inside Madara's dimension).

They would also have a Sea King armada, along with every single Captain who served in the Gotei 13 + Sengoku, Garp, Gol D Roger, Kong, Edo Tenseis, Madara, all the Kages, every One Piece pirate, Miss Goldenweek, and other hax characters, every Hollow, a shinobi + zetsu army (180.000 strong, only counting *current* generation forces), 100.000 + Marines, a Pacifista team...

And as the battle progressed, Szayel's spy bacteria could be used to collect info for countermeasures, while sending wave after wave of cannon-fodder to do "field research" (with an "all brains" team including Szayel, Mayuri, Vegapunk and Urahara working together)...

And who is this "Ancaron" you speak of? 

Truthfully, I see Ancalagon as the only way for Morgoth to get a victory here, due to its size and power (enough to hold back the Valar host, his trump card). 

So a more definitive answer lies only with future displays of Juubi/RS/Bleach power progression.

But if Ungoliant is in this, then Morgoth stomps and EM just made a poorly balanced thread


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## billy3 (May 16, 2011)

LOL @ HST.

Honestly, the HST has some firepower, but *come* *on*, against the hosts of Morgoth?

Ungoliant just sucks all the Bijuu and other large high tiers dry, then proceeds to solo the HST.  Keep in minds, Morgoth may have been afraid to face Fingolfin in battle, but he ran away scared shitless from Ungoliant.  Not that she's needed for this battle anyways, not by a long shot.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 17, 2011)

V3L0C1TY said:


> HST should take this. The Narutoverse could basically be used as a form of mass fodder to give the higher ups prep-time to eliminate Morgoth and his pals.



being one of the most morally bankrupt universes this is a very bad idea...



V3L0C1TY said:


> There is still Madara's Mugen Tsukuyomi thats yet to be seen* (but probably in the next few chapters), *



then don't try and use it in battle also the uchihas get a lesson on what a real god of mind rape is when either morgoth or Sauron has a five minute conversation with them and completely subverts them



Riddler said:


> All of that and they still won't be able to do shit to these guys:]



they can harm intangibles just fine





Riddler said:


> Also, Infinite Tsukuyomi powered by 9 Bijuu + Juubi + RS and Madara is serioulsy gonna mess up that 1,500,000-strong army of fodders (meaning the Orcs, Easterlings, Trolls, etc.).



yeah...the thought of an uchiha out mind raping Sauron and Morgoth..is fucking lultastic



Endless Mike said:


> Obviously yes



so this is War of Wrath continent altering numbers? plus all the assets he had before things got that desperate?


Riddler said:


> Legion, what legion? They were retconned to at most 7.
> 
> 3 Admirals + 4 Yonkou, each at his/her prime + Yama-Jii + current Blackbeard + Golden Lion Shiki + Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra spamming Lanzas + Monster Aizen + Prime Ichigo + 1 Chibaku Tensei from a well hidden Pein should be enough firepower to put them down.



yeah the espada either get subverted and mind fucked or killed

the yonkou are mostly featless with two exceptions and the admirals and other logia can be harmed


Riddler said:


> And the "1,500,000+" army of fodders in Morgoth's Army is nothing. Just considering *current * population levels, Oda's verse could swarm them in human-sized sardines and not even notice it



sooo much fapping



Riddler said:


> Truthfully, I see Ancalagon as the only way for Morgoth to get a victory here, due to its size and power (enough to hold back the Valar host, his trump card).



reread the silmarillion the sheer destruction caused by lesser Maiar Noldor and Vanyar engaging the forces of morgoth sank a region about as large as western Europe into the seas just from fighting on it..so numerous and fierce was the battle that the entire landscape got fucking altered

that has never happened on that scale on panel in any of the HST universes with the exception of the whitebeard war which again was on a vastly smaller scale

LOL all we're missing is arednad to come in here and cry about how we're ignorant DnD junkies tripping off tolkiens poetic hyperbole and thus aren't true fans

or for that alchemist guy to come here and claim sasuke could mind rape Eru


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## Orochibuto (May 17, 2011)

_"And 3 worlds came to face Morgoth the enemy, one of them having the power of the seas, another with the power of the spirits and another with the power of the elements themselves and mind. But neither their powerful eyes or impossible to pierce bodies could save face in front of the mighty Dark Lord. For they all came soon to learn that the foe they were waging war against was just as one of the gods the habitants of these worlds worship

Such a big slaughter had never been seen and the entire Vallar host cried upon seeing such a bloodshed and Manwe upon seeing the devastated remmants of these people from other worlds uttered in tears "How unlucky they were for facing the dark one with this ammount of power. For if they had faced Morgoth as when he was the great Melkor they wouldnt have suffered so much, for their deaths would have been quick and painless, ending the battle in seconds" "_


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 17, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> _"And 3 worlds came to face Morgoth the enemy, one of them having the power of the seas, another with the power of the spirits and another with the power of the elements themselves and mind. But neither their powerful eyes or impossible to pierce bodies could save face in front of the mighty Dark Lord. For they all came soon to learn that the foe they were waging war against was just as one of the gods the habitants of these worlds worship
> 
> Such a big slaughter had never been seen and the entire Vallar host cried upon seeing such a bloodshed and Manwe upon seeing the devastated remmants of these people from other worlds uttered in tears "How unlucky they were for facing the dark one with this ammount of power. For if they had faced Morgoth as when he was the great Melkor they wouldnt have suffered so much, for their deaths would have been quick and painless, ending the battle in seconds" "_



...that was...really fucking good man


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## blueblip (May 17, 2011)

Morgoth's army takes this. Firstly, EM's allowed Ungoliant. Secondly, there are the Balrogs, who are true elementals and no one in the HST has a way to harm true elementals, and no, haki doesn't let you hit them. Thirdly, while the dragons are not going to be anything special here, the initial mass devastation they cause will be insane, especially since they will include both Glaurung and Ancagalon. Fourthly, even a Morgoth at his lowest is still stronger than almost anything in his verse, which includes demi-gods.


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## Riddler (May 17, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> they can harm intangibles just fine



You fail at thinking I was talking about Logia intangibility. By "these guys" I meant space-reaching characters 






The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah...the thought of an uchiha out mind raping Sauron and Morgoth..is fucking lultastic



Did you even read my words? I'll repeat them for you: "*that 1,500,000-strong army of fodders (meaning the Orcs, Easterlings, Trolls, etc.)*". I never argued Tsukuyomi would work on anyone significant.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah the espada either get subverted and mind fucked or killed
> 
> the yonkou are mostly featless with two exceptions and the admirals and other logia can be harmed



I only mentioned one Espada, who would be spamming Lanzas from afar. Where did I state Logias are not gonna be harmed again? I added 14 HST top tiers and simply stated their firepower could take out 7 Balrogs. You could read the posts before answering.

Regarding your "featless" argument, I'll just note the OBD allows reasonable powerscaling.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> sooo much fapping



Kaiser Wombat mentioned the 1.500.000-strong army as if that would be something significant. There are 50.000.000 people in Fishman Island alone. + 10.000.000 in Alabasta. These are just 2 countries in OP verse. Even if you count only 10% of them to battle-worthy people, that's still 6.000.000 people in just 2 countries from one of the HST verses.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> reread the silmarillion the sheer destruction caused by lesser Maiar Noldor and Vanyar engaging the forces of morgoth sank a region about as large as western Europe into the seas just from fighting on it..so numerous and fierce was the battle that the entire landscape got fucking altered
> 
> that has never happened on that scale on panel in any of the HST universes with the exception of the whitebeard war which again was on a vastly smaller scale



I only remember lands sinking (Beleriand and the creation of the Gulf of Lh?n) after Valar intervention. Could be forgetting something, though. Please provide references.



blueblip said:


> Morgoth's army takes this. Firstly, EM's allowed Ungoliant. Secondly, there are the Balrogs, who are true elementals and no one in the HST has a way to harm true elementals, and no, haki doesn't let you hit them. Thirdly, while the dragons are not going to be anything special here, the initial mass devastation they cause will be insane, especially since they will include both Glaurung and Ancagalon. Fourthly, even a Morgoth at his lowest is still stronger than almost anything in his verse, which includes demi-gods.



Adding Ungoliant made this a stomp thread. 

You need equivalency rule to allow someone to touch Kizaru and the Bleach characters. It works both ways, my friend.

The dragons are not going to be anything special? 

"_Before the rising of the sun E?rendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin_".

"Him" is the sun. The Thangorodrim were the highest peaks in Middle Earth. Ancalagon has few feats and yet that already puts him above any other Morgoth servant in terms of sheer power (Ungoliant is *not* some Morgoth's servant).


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## blueblip (May 17, 2011)

Riddler said:


> Adding Ungoliant made this a stomp thread.


Quite.



> You need equivalency rule to allow someone to touch Kizaru and the Bleach characters. It works both ways, my friend.


That's not how equivalence works.

Since there are weapons that can harm balrogs, that means that those weapons can naturally harm true elementals, and the logias are a step beneath them. So without equalizing anything, Morgoth's army already possesses a means to harm logias.

The HST, on the other hand, has nothing, equalized or not, that can harm elementals. The best they have is haki, which can only harm logias, NOT true elementals.

The same applies for spirits. The issue of equivalence doesn't even come up here.



> The dragons are not going to be anything special?
> 
> "_Before the rising of the sun E?rendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin_".
> 
> "Him" is the sun. The Thangorodrim were the highest peaks in Middle Earth. Ancalagon has few feats and yet that already puts him above any other Morgoth servant in terms of sheer power (Ungoliant is *not* some Morgoth's servant).


Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the dragons are shit or anything. It's just that when you consider the number of AoE abilities, the dragons end up being pretty big targets. And after an initial strafing run, the HST is going to prioritize taking them out, and since they are pretty big targets...


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## KaiserWombat (May 17, 2011)

For whoever wanted to know about the fate of Beleriand:

"_Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon *a world that was changed.* For so great was the fury of those adversaries *that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms*, and there was confusion and great noise; *and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more*_".

Sirion was a river in West Beleriand.

All in all, all records suggest that the only region to survive in Beleriand following the War of Wrath was Ossiriand, which became the kingdom of Lindon in the Second Age under Gil-galad. And that occupies the most south-easterly point in the landmass.


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## Riddler (May 17, 2011)

blueblip said:


> That's not how equivalence works.
> 
> Since there are weapons that can harm balrogs, that means that those weapons can naturally harm true elementals, and the logias are a step beneath them. So without equalizing anything, Morgoth's army already possesses a means to harm logias.
> 
> ...



What defines a "true elemental" then? Why are Balrogs more elemental-like than logias? Balrogs aren't even made up of fire, they're more shadow-like entities who can breathe fire. 

Bleach characters aren't elementals. They're spiritual beings, normally intangible and invisible, yet they can harm corporeal beings in their own verse. If you don't allow equivalency for Balrog/Logia, how are you explaining that it can be used to allow non-reiatsu users to see/hit Gotei 13 members? Seems like a double standard.

This is not a good argument to use. Why? Because as they put it in the OBD General Assumptions, "_It's simple, not only does it give everyone a fighting chance, but it's also because all of the above mentioned forms of power are at least somewhat based on the same principle _




blueblip said:


> Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the dragons are shit or anything. It's just that when you consider the number of AoE abilities, the dragons end up being pretty big targets. And after an initial strafing run, the HST is going to prioritize taking them out, and since they are pretty big targets...



Smaug/Scatha-level dragons are gonna be obliterated quicky by HST higher ups. Ancalagon, on the other hand, shits on mountainbusters. He's on a wholly different level. Was Morgoth's trump card then and still is.




KaiserWombat said:


> For whoever wanted to know about the fate of Beleriand:
> 
> "_Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon *a world that was changed.* For so great was the fury of those adversaries *that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms*, and there was confusion and great noise; *and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more*_".



I know this quote. But this was made after Valar/Vingilot intervention. Watchdog claimed there were lands sinking only with lesser Maiar/Noldor/Vanyar fighting. When did it happen?


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## blueblip (May 17, 2011)

Riddler said:


> What defines a "true elemental" then? Why are Balrogs more elemental-like than logias? Balrogs aren't even made up of fire, they're more shadow-like entities who can breathe fire.
> 
> Bleach characters aren't elementals. They're spiritual beings, normally intangible and invisible, yet they can harm corporeal beings in their own verse. If you don't allow equivalency for Balrog/Logia, how are you explaining that it can be used to allow non-reiatsu users to see/hit Gotei 13 members? Seems like a double standard.
> 
> This is not a good argument to use. Why? Because as they put it in the OBD General Assumptions, "_It's simple, not only does it give everyone a fighting chance, but it's also because all of the above mentioned forms of power are at least somewhat based on the same principle _


The difference between Balrogs/true elementals and logias is that logias derive their power from devil fruits, and still retain a 'real body' to hit, which is what haki allows. A true elemental is just that: it's 'real body' is it's elemental form. Haki won't work because there is no 'true body' to hit. It will have the same effect of a regular punch hitting an elemental. Balrogs are a hybrid of fire/shadow elementals. Yes, I know shadow doesn't constitute an element in the traditional sense, but they are what they are.

As for spirits, people in the LotR-verse can anyway see and use magical weapons to hit ghosts/wraiths/incorporeal beings/etc. It seems like they all have that as an innate ability. Which means that on average, a person from the LotR-verse should also be able to see Bleach-spiritual entities. But I will admit that when it comes to the Bleach-verse, I might not have a solid argument. But it still holds for logias.

Anyhoo, the point of equalization is to prevent such instances such as no one from another verse being to see Bleach characters because the other character's verse doesn't have spirits/ghosts/incoporeals and so on. In the case of verses like LotR, where such things are anyway part of the verse's standard setting, there's no point to the equivalence rule.



> Smaug/Scatha-level dragons are gonna be obliterated quicky by HST higher ups. Ancalagon, on the other hand, shits on mountainbusters. He's on a wholly different level. Was Morgoth's trump card then and still is.


Fair enough. I'll concede on the Ancagalon point. Not that I'm complaining in finding out Ancagalon can tank mountain busters 



> I know this quote. But this was made after Valar/Vingilot intervention. Watchdog claimed there were lands sinking only with lesser Maiar/Noldor/Vanyar fighting. When did it happen?


I think he's referring to he time when Middle Earth was first formed, when Morgoth and his forces first clashed with the Valar.


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## billy3 (May 17, 2011)

blueblip said:


> Since there are weapons that can harm balrogs, that means that those weapons can naturally harm true elementals, and the logias are a step beneath them. So without equalizing anything, Morgoth's army already possesses a means to harm logias.



Agreed.  Just lace a spoon with mithril and you have yourself a ethric-smiting club that can hurt intangibles.  

As to the nature of the Balrogs and other nasties, IIRC, they're lesser maiar, and those most one can do to them is vanquish their corporeal forms and hinder their manisfestation.

Again, given that Ungoliant's in on this, you could merge all the HST beings together into a super eleven-bi and she'd use it as a toothpick (after mating with it and chewing up most of its carcas).  /thread.


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## Soledad Eterna (May 17, 2011)

Does Morgoth and his forces haven any defenses against Barragan? Also, how is their durability against heat and cold?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 17, 2011)

Riddler said:


> What defines a "true elemental" then? Why are Balrogs more elemental-like than logias? Balrogs aren't even made up of fire, they're more shadow-like entities who can breathe fire.



they are spiritual beings who assume elemental forms..



Riddler said:


> Bleach characters aren't elementals. They're spiritual beings, normally intangible and invisible, yet they can harm corporeal beings in their own verse. If you don't allow equivalency for Balrog/Logia, how are you explaining that it can be used to allow non-reiatsu users to see/hit Gotei 13 members? Seems like a double standard.



telephone poles have punched out hollows seriously there are numerous threads dating back years here by many posters debunking that crap




Riddler said:


> This is not a good argument to use. Why? Because as they put it in the OBD General Assumptions, "_It's simple, not only does it give everyone a fighting chance, but it's also because all of the above mentioned forms of power are at least somewhat based on the same principle _



special circumstances unique weapons and different principles are not bound to that rule...its why Shinigami can't hurt logias 





Riddler said:


> I know this quote. But this was made after Valar/Vingilot intervention. Watchdog claimed there were lands sinking only with lesser Maiar/Noldor/Vanyar fighting. When did it happen?



Vingilot fought the great dragon never participated in the army vs army battles..nor did the Valar to my knowledge do so

so it still stands



Riddler said:


> You fail at thinking I was talking about Logia intangibility. By "these guys" I meant space-reaching characters



you mean only eneru? hows he surviving for long with out being mind raped or killed?




Riddler said:


> Did you even read my words? I'll repeat them for you: "*that 1,500,000-strong army of fodders (meaning the Orcs, Easterlings, Trolls, etc.)*". I never argued Tsukuyomi would work on anyone significant.




an army that would be protect by their boss from such things



Riddler said:


> I only mentioned one Espada, who would be spamming Lanzas from afar. Where did I state Logias are not gonna be harmed again? I added 14 HST top tiers and simply stated their firepower could take out 7 Balrogs. You could read the posts before answering.



their fire power taking out seven balrogs is pretty stupid..



Riddler said:


> Regarding your "featless" argument, I'll just note the OBD allows reasonable powerscaling.




not only is that pretty hotly contested but what you did wasn't reasonable at all 



Riddler said:


> Kaiser Wombat mentioned the 1.500.000-strong army as if that would be something significant. There are 50.000.000 people in Fishman Island alone. + 10.000.000 in Alabasta. These are just 2 countries in OP verse. Even if you count only 10% of them to battle-worthy people, that's still 6.000.000 people in just 2 countries from one of the HST verses.



these guys don't sink lands into the ocean




Riddler said:


> I only remember lands sinking (Beleriand and the creation of the Gulf of Lh?n) after Valar intervention. Could be forgetting something, though. Please provide references.



Maiar and Vanyar some Noldor and I believe teleri played mostly taxi service..so lesser maiar and high elves did that "so fierce was the fighting" goes the quote I believe against Morgoths forces that the combined fighting did that type of damage



Riddler said:


> You need equivalency rule to allow someone to touch Kizaru and the Bleach characters. It works both ways, my friend.
> .



the situation is different one side has "intangibles" in a radically different sense then the others and one side has weapons tailor made to harm all sorts of intangible spiritual beings



Soledad Eterna said:


> Does Morgoth and his forces haven any defenses against Barragan? Also, how is their durability against heat and cold?



as aizen said "superior spirit power"


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## KaiserWombat (May 18, 2011)

1,500,000 are only those that participated in the War of Wrath under Morgoth's flag: going by the excellently consistent use of group terminology used by Tolkein to describe army numbers, estimates would bill at least another couple of million Orcs and hundreds of thousands of Easterlings participating in the various pre-WoW conflicts throughout the Silmarillion tale, as EM allowed a composite version of the army to be used.

And again, Balrog numbers were not _truly_ retconned under: there are still at least 1,000 of these bad dudes listed even by Post-Lord of the Rings scripts of the Silmarillion, years after J.R.R made a comment which basically amounts to a scribble in a margin and not established into the canon.

Fishman Island's population is actually 5,000,000 (the 50,000,000 figure being a translator error), and while large islands like Arabasta may have a population of 10,000,000, how many of those individuals do you expect to be elite, well-trained and experienced soldiers? The entirety of Morgoth's hosts are suited for life-or-death scenarios and combat, and can field armies that makes the 100,000-strong Marine defense of Marineford look like a bad joke.


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## Amorozov (May 18, 2011)

Do they have modern guns in HST? Because a modern marine>>>>>>>>> a orc. Not that it would help them against Balrogs, of course...


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## billy3 (May 18, 2011)

Amorozov said:


> Do they have modern guns in HST? Because a modern marine>>>>>>>>> a orc. Not that it would help them against Balrogs, of course...



Good point.  The bigger flesh and blood baddies, like trolls, probably have a very thick hide, but modern firearms are probably quite effective against fodder orcs.


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## Riddler (May 18, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> they are spiritual beings who assume elemental forms..



And Logias are corporeal beings who assume elemental forms  

How is one "more elemental" than the other, when the "element" is an original attribute of neither?




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> telephone poles have punched out hollows seriously there are numerous threads dating back years here by many posters debunking that crap



Inconsistency/all things in bleach have reiatsu/weapons held by people with high spiritual power can be used against hollows and shinigami...




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> special circumstances unique weapons and different principles are not bound to that rule...its why Shinigami can't hurt logias



The "special circumstances" argument would make genjutsu unusable outside of Narutoverse. 

Logia intangibility is part of their powerset and used often in their battles. Bleach intangibility is not. Hence why we allow one, but not the other.

The "somewhat same principle" here is "elemental intangibility". Hence Logias and Balrogs should be equalized and haki users should be able to hit the Balrogs. If you argue that Balrog intangibility is due to their spiritual nature, then they should be treated as the Bleach characters.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Vingilot fought the great dragon never participated in the army vs army battles..nor did the Valar to my knowledge do so
> 
> so it still stands



Go read the books again, then:


_"But *at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West*, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; *and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms*, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, *and the mountains rang beneath their feet*._

_*The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath*. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.

But it availed him not. *The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind*.

(...)

Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and *so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder and lightning and a tempest of fire*.

But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and *he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin*._


The Valar came and started owning shit left and right. Vingilot slayed Ancalagon and his fall was so apocalyptic it ruined the landscape. 

Mountains trembling beneath the feet of the Valar, the host of the West meeting Morgoth's Army and  stomping it, Balrogs being killed, a tempest of fire, huge dragons falling from the skies... these were the things that mainly altered the shape of the world. And the Valar had *everything* to do with it.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you mean only eneru? hows he surviving for long with out being mind raped or killed?



He, the Spaceys and the Spaceys' creators (the Moon people who traveled to some blue star) have vessels that would enable HST characters to hit their opponents from distances beyond the reach of a flying dragon. 





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> an army that would be protect by their boss from such things



Quote canon examples of such protection existing please.





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> their fire power taking out seven balrogs is pretty stupid..



You know what Ice Age, Dai Funka, Chibaku Tensei, spammable Lanza del Relampago, bloodlusted Shikai Yama-Jii, 2 Gura Gura no Mi users, Ichigo Prime... would do to the battlefield? 

Seriously, are you putting Balrogs at Nappa's level or what? 

Gothmog himself attacked a GATE of Gondolin and used iron creatures to hit the doors. He needed dragons heaving against the walls to breach them. There were barricades, last stances in SQUARES and the head Balrog DROWNING in a fountain. We're not talking about "lol I'mma citybusting cause I feel like it" level characters here.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> not only is that pretty hotly contested but what you did wasn't reasonable at all



It's not reasonable to say Big Mum and Kaido should be around Shanks or Admiral level? Yeah, I'm sure they're just good at hiding their asses from the real top tiers 





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> these guys don't sink lands into the ocean



True. Valar marching and stomping fodder troops, Balrogs and Dragons does that.





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Maiar and Vanyar some Noldor and I believe teleri played mostly taxi service..so lesser maiar and high elves did that "so fierce was the fighting" goes the quote I believe against Morgoths forces that the combined fighting did that type of damage



If by "that type of damage" you mean the land-sinking part, it was only *after* the Valar came and we get no timeframe for it:

"_Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and *the sea roared in through many chasms*, and there was confusion and great noise; and *rivers perished or found new paths*, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more_". 

It could have been a slow process of submersion. You know, for instance, how the Gulf of Lune was created? I was due to the Blue Mountains being ruined and a river starting to flow in. It could have taken minutes, days, weeks, months or years...




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> the situation is different one side has "intangibles" in a radically different sense then the others and one side has weapons tailor made to harm all sorts of intangible spiritual beings



Every verse has its own rules and different ways to deal with intangibles. To make them OBD usable, we need to establish some common ground.




KaiserWombat said:


> 1,500,000 are only those that participated in the War of Wrath under Morgoth's flag: going by the excellently consistent use of group terminology used by Tolkein to describe army numbers, estimates would bill at least another couple of million Orcs and hundreds of thousands of Easterlings participating in the various pre-WoW conflicts throughout the Silmarillion tale, as EM allowed a composite version of the army to be used.
> 
> And again, Balrog numbers were not _truly_ retconned under: there are still at least 1,000 of these bad dudes listed even by Post-Lord of the Rings scripts of the Silmarillion, years after J.R.R made a comment which basically amounts to a scribble in a margin and not established into the canon.
> 
> Fishman Island's population is actually 5,000,000 (the 50,000,000 figure being a translator error), and while large islands like Arabasta may have a population of 10,000,000, how many of those individuals do you expect to be elite, well-trained and experienced soldiers? The entirety of Morgoth's hosts are suited for life-or-death scenarios and combat, and can field armies that makes the 100,000-strong Marine defense of Marineford look like a bad joke.



"Composite version of the army" would enable HST to bring forth every single person who ever lived in OP verse, Naruto verse and Bleach verse.

As for the retcon part: people don't rewrite the text in the books even if the author changed his mind after writing them. If Marvel ever reprinted "Secret Wars", Pre-Retcon Beyonder would still be there, owning LT and the other cosmics. It does not change the fact it was retconned and you could only use the "thousands of Balrogs" thing if the OP stated we're using pre-retcon stuff here. 

But as he allowed Ungoliant, I think you can easily persuade him to do so 

As for numbers: fine, let's assume it's 5mil in Fishman Island. That + 10mil in Arabasta makes 15mil. 10% of that is 1,5mil. Add dozens of other nations in the OP verse. Add the real-world based Bleachverse. Add 180.000 army of *current* shinigami from Naruto... Morgoth would always have fewer numbers. And his fodders don't have guns and are affected by common arrows and such.


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## Endless Mike (May 18, 2011)

LT was not in the original Secret Wars.


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## Riddler (May 18, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> LT was not in the original Secret Wars.



I meant Secret Wars II


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 18, 2011)

Riddler said:


> And Logias are corporeal beings who assume elemental forms



hows this helping them when virtually every one in the first and second age had intangible fucking weaponry?



Riddler said:


> Inconsistency/all things in bleach have reiatsu/weapons held by people with high spiritual power can be used against hollows and shinigami...



when people argue with established forum precedent I think it's called trolling



Riddler said:


> The "special circumstances" argument would make genjutsu unusable outside of Narutoverse.



no it wouldn't 



Riddler said:


> Logia intangibility is part of their powerset and used often in their battles. Bleach intangibility is not. Hence why we allow one, but not the other.



nawww ya think



Riddler said:


> The "somewhat same principle" here is "elemental intangibility". Hence Logias and Balrogs should be equalized and haki users should be able to hit the Balrogs. If you argue that Balrog intangibility is due to their spiritual nature, then they should be treated as the Bleach characters.



this is some seriously epically stupid reasoning 



Riddler said:


> Go read the books again, then:
> 
> 
> _"But *at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West*, and the challenge of the trumpets of E?nw? filled the sky; *and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms*, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, *and the mountains rang beneath their feet*._
> ...




notice how nothing directly states the Valar directly took battle against the fucking ground forces?



Riddler said:


> He, the Spaceys and the Spaceys' creators (the Moon people who traveled to some blue star) have vessels that would enable HST characters to hit their opponents from distances beyond the reach of a flying dragon.




some one needs to brush up on his tolkien lore



Riddler said:


> Quote canon examples of such protection existing please.




well let's see here we have every one from the witch king to the Morgoth mind fucking the battle field to varying degrees degrading the enemy and strengthening their own forces we have these guys doing mind rapes across long distance and what not




Riddler said:


> You know what Ice Age, Dai Funka, Chibaku Tensei, spammable Lanza del Relampago, bloodlusted Shikai Yama-Jii, 2 Gura Gura no Mi users, Ichigo Prime... would do to the battlefield?



sure I do do you know that CIS is not absolutely diminished by blood lust? meaning half those guys are gonna act as retarded as they do in canon? 



Riddler said:


> Seriously, are you putting Balrogs at Nappa's level or what?



..you think all those guys project force comparable to nappa level? fucking retarded



Riddler said:


> Gothmog himself attacked a GATE of Gondolin and used iron creatures to hit the doors. He needed dragons heaving against the walls to breach them. There were barricades, last stances in SQUARES and the head Balrog DROWNING in a fountain. We're not talking about "lol I'mma citybusting cause I feel like it" level characters here.




I like how your very selective about siting feats and all biased much?



Riddler said:


> It's not reasonable to say Big Mum and Kaido should be around Shanks or Admiral level? Yeah, I'm sure they're just good at hiding their asses from the real top tiers




until they do stuff on panel? fuck powerscaling 



Riddler said:


> True. Valar marching and stomping fodder troops, Balrogs and Dragons does that.





lol no


Riddler said:


> If by "that type of damage" you mean the land-sinking part, it was only *after* the Valar came and we get no timeframe for it:



epic down play is epic 


Riddler said:


> It could have been a slow process of submersion. You know, for instance, how the Gulf of Lune was created? I was due to the Blue Mountains being ruined and a river starting to flow in. It could have taken minutes, days, weeks, months or years...



oh lord 



Riddler said:


> Every verse has its own rules and different ways to deal with intangibles. To make them OBD usable, we need to establish some common ground.



no we don't not when a character has a specific trait that's unique for a very specific reason


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## Riddler (May 19, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> hows this helping them when virtually every one in the first and second age had intangible fucking weaponry?



You know what _ignoratio elenchi_ is? It's when your argument is valid but *has nothing to do with the issue in question*. I was arguing against Balrogs being "more elemental" then logias, and you responded with "_hey, they have weapons capable of hitting intangibles_". WTF?




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> when people argue with established forum precedent I think it's called trolling



You're outdated. Please read KaiserWombat's post here:

"_The fact that Sado has been established with the ability "Fullbring" now calls the telephone pole dispute into question again: "Fullbring" is seemingly a genetic trait (all potential users are determined at birth), plus its power is to interact with the "souls" of foreign objects to assist them in various tasks. It would therefore appear that Sado (a natural "Fullbringer") subconsciously used his ability to strike Shrieker in the first place.

It's excessively stupid and would've been a far more useful concept to explore hundreds of chapters ago, but *it's now a staple of the canon and has retroactive status*_".





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no it wouldn't
> 
> nawww ya think
> 
> this is some seriously epically stupid reasoning



Such brilliant arguments dazzle me.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> notice how nothing directly states the Valar directly took battle against the fucking ground forces?



If you can't understand this part: _"at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the *West*, (...) for the *host of the Valar* were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and *the mountains rang beneath their feet*. The meeting of the *hosts of the West and of the North* is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath" _ then you should take some reading lessons.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> some one needs to brush up on his tolkien lore



So says the guy who can't provide a single quote to back his baseless claims.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> well let's see here we have every one from the witch king to the Morgoth mind fucking the battle field to varying degrees degrading the enemy and strengthening their own forces we have these guys doing mind rapes across long distance and what not



Mind raping = mind shielding now? 




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> sure I do do you know that CIS is not absolutely diminished by blood lust? meaning half those guys are gonna act as retarded as they do in canon?



"in canon", Whitebeard begins his battles with sky-splitting and creating Tsunamis, Aokiji's 1st seen ability was Ice Age, Akainu's was Dai Funka... 




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ..you think all those guys project force comparable to nappa level? fucking retarded



Either you're being smart and using straw man or you just can't read properly.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I like how your very selective about siting feats and all biased much?



You're biased *without* citing feats 




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> until they do stuff on panel? fuck powerscaling



lol




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> lol no
> 
> epic down play is epic
> 
> oh lord



Quintilian has got nothing on you, mate.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no we don't not when a character has a specific trait that's unique for a very specific reason



So specific traits can be specific due to some very specific reason? How specific 

Well, this is really getting us nowhere, so I'll just say this: Ungoliant is allowed. Morgoth wins. /thread


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## violentrl (May 19, 2011)

Not sure of Morgoth's feat but if he's omnipotent, HST doesn't have chance. 
If not, I'd say that Narutoverse and Bleachverse is stands back and have top-tiers of OPverse solo(Admirals, Whitebeard and Luffy stomps)


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## Furious George (May 19, 2011)

Morgoth and his hosts of loonies take it without too much of a fuss. 

You got people who suck up light and fight single-handedly against other gods (essentially what Valar) and who attack with fire and darkness.... and I'm sure one of those guys can do a REAL mean indian burn.


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## halaros536 (May 20, 2011)

Morgoth rapes hard.


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## Endless Mike (May 21, 2011)

Don't forget Sauron is also here, and he's a lot stronger than he was during LOTR


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## KaiserWombat (May 21, 2011)

Gorthaur/Annatar/Sauron in the *Third Age* was capable of:

- manipulating whole environments with his evil (Mordor as a whole, but more specifically Mount Doom)

- generating weather alterations across distances of at least "three hundred leagues" (Tolkien percieved leagues in his 'verse as equivalent to three miles; so at least 900 miles/1448 kilometres); affects the entire Anduin region (the open expanse between the Misty Mountains and the great forest of Mirkwood, easily several hundred miles long) with hailstorms and lightning

- seems to have a power known as "shrouding" (also possessed by Morgoth and Ungoliant) that enables Sauron to cast mental darkness across entire regions (Emyn Muil [a mountainous region that measured 75 miles in width and 100 miles in length] was completely affected by this ability) that prevents any form of farsight or long-distance communication from reaching those areas (Gandalf could not summon the Eagles to assist Frodo and Sam when they were trapped in Emyn Muil, while Elrond could not use foresight to read into the Mountains of Shadow)

- engaged in a battle of mental dominance with Gandalf the Grey from several hundred miles away, and nearly succeeded in corrupting Frodo Baggins with the One Ring's influence.

- the Battle of the Morannon/Black Gates revealed that the only reason for Sauron's hordes of thousands of orcs, Trolls and other "fell" creatures having such determination and will in combat was due to the mental influence of the Dark Lord himself: indicating that he can manipulate the minds of thousands of creatures across several hundred to thousands of miles from Barad-dur.

- could release a plague that wiped out the entire royal family in Gondor and "great numbers" of the region's population, simply to remove garrisons situated on Mordor's borders and gain access to unmaned fortifications like Cirith Ungol.

Back in the *Second Age*, he could:

- tank numerous bolts of lightning cast by Manwe's storm that instantly killed Numenoreans and set the dome of Numenor's chief temple to Morgoth ablaze.

- could produce sufficient heat from his hands that he immolated and "destroyed" the body of Gil-galad, a upper mid-tier/lower high-tier Elf Lord, upon immediate touch.

In the *First Age*, he managed to:

- be capable of shapeshifting, transforming into the second most-powerful werewolf in existence, a serpent, a "monster" (vague account indeed) and a vampire all in quick succession.

- fought in a handicap against a Maia/Elf hybrid in Luthien (whos magic was even able to affect Morgoth) and the greatest hound in history and likely Maia Huan: his mere entrance caused Huan to jump back in fear, and the latter only struck when Sauron was swayed by the magical properties of Luthien's cloak when he attempted to kill her immediately. His howls could be heard across the hills of Ered Wethrin, and it is known that similar noises made by Huan and Carcharoth in their battle moved and rended apart boulders.

- besieged and took the citadel of Tol Sirion single-handedly, forcing Orodreth (a member of the House of Finarfin, his uncle being Finrod Felagund and his great-uncle being Fingolfin himself) to flee the fortress in defeat.

- could weave shadow constructs into replicating living organisms, to such a fine degree that a veteran guerilla fighter was willing to betray his lord and companions with complete conviction that the "spectre" was infact his wife.


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