# Unpopular opinion that hasn't changed?



## Ishmael (Jan 14, 2019)

Just as the title says, what's an Unpopular opinion that goes against most general consensus that you haven't changed from?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 14, 2019)

Sakura is a decent character


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## Topace (Jan 14, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Sakura is a decent character


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 14, 2019)

I know I feel them coming for me


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## Omote (Jan 14, 2019)

Every character in this show sucks except Gai, Kisame and Tsunade

The fact that kiddy murderer Itachi has a fanbase is astounding 


Kakashi's personality is paint and for the master of many jutsu the fact that he only taught Sasuke one and completely ignored the rest of his team is laughable   if I was minato's ghost I'd slap the fuck out of him

NBD related:

Drunk Lee>5th Gate Lee

Adult Gaara is probably stronger than the founders

Haku is Jounin tier

BoS Sasuke is Kage Tier


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## FlamingRain (Jan 14, 2019)

Killer Bee > Minato.


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## Bonly (Jan 14, 2019)

Itachi would beat Kabuto without access to Edo Tensei is the first that comes to mind


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## Kronus (Jan 14, 2019)

I think the strongest Kage of each village are a notch above Minato and Itachi since those two didn't live to reach their primes.


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 14, 2019)

I'm sticking to Battledome related things since this is the Battledome

Hashirama and EMS Madara are overrated as fuck
Naruto has been stronger than Sasuke the entire series
Kaguya isn't as much of a threat as people think since she's a fucking idiot in battle
Sage Mode Mitsuki is Kage Tier
BoS Gaara > War Gaara & Adult Gaara


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## Tri (Jan 14, 2019)

Gengetsu >= Mu


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## Ultrafragor (Jan 14, 2019)

Hiashi is Kage level (like a lot of elite jonin)

His Air Wall Palm that pushed the Juubi's tail back hits as hard as Tsunade, but over mid range. Anyone without some kind of durability buff will either be shattered by 1) the sheer force of the blow or 2) the skull shattering collision with the ground or any walls that are behind them.

Byakugan perception raises his taijutsu speed and skill past what even Kage levels are normally capable of. Tsunade's databook scores aren't helping her land a stupid punch and Hiahsi vs A4 is the same as Lee vs Neji. High speed enemies aren't kryptonite for the hyuuga.


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## Topace (Jan 14, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> I'm sticking to Battledome related things since this is the Battledome
> 
> Hashirama and EMS Madara are overrated as fuck
> Naruto has been stronger than Sasuke the entire series
> ...




Literally nothing in the manga supports this. Not a scan, a feat, a statement. Nothing.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Minato could defeat Hashirama/Asspulldara assuming no PIS is involved.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Gaiden Obito is Jounin level with 2T Sharingan..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Topace said:


> Literally nothing in the manga supports this. Not a scan, a feat, a statement. Nothing.


There was a time people or at least one of them used to say Diedera defeated BOS Gaara, Hebi Sasuke defeated Diedera so Hebi Sasuke defeats WA Gaara.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 15, 2019)

Hebi Sasuke is Sannin Tier 
Jiraiya is a really shitty character from both a written perspective and a combat one (in the grand scheme of things)
Rock lee should have literally pasted Gaara when they fought and he used Hidden Lotus. They should be cleaning whats left of Gaara off the floor of that arena to this day.
Hiruzen (all versions) is mad overrated
Genjutsu (specifically of the visual variety) is a real threat to Kage levels...REALLY dont get how anyone who read the manga can even think otherwise given Genjutsu track record. 
The elemental wheel ACTUALLY WORKS THE WAY ITS REPEATEDLY SHOWN AND STATED TO WORK...Genuinely cannot believe how many times I see morons arguing against it.
Tsunades or Sakuras abilities to heal OTHER PEOPLE dont inflate their status as relatively shitty and straightforward *1v1* combatants 
EMS Sasuke has PS...Cuz he used it on panel...And its backed by the DBs...Really cant fathom how this is debatable either. Theres a lot of real straightforward shit that just "whooshes" people on these forums.
Just because a person with the powers of GOD sensed something, doesnt mean sensors with worse or no (Jiraiya) feats can
A3 can blitz most if not all mid tiers, including the Sannin, SM or otherwise
Im sure there are more but im kinda drawing a blank now



MaruUchiha said:


> I'm sticking to Battledome related things since this is the Battledome
> 
> Hashirama and EMS Madara are overrated as fuck
> Naruto has been stronger than Sasuke the entire series
> ...


Literally all of these are hilarious 


Hussain said:


> Minato could defeat Hashirama/Asspulldara without PIS.


This ones not bad either


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 15, 2019)

Twisting statements, disregarding other statements you don’t like & ignoring feats that contradict your rhetoric isn’t good debating

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The elemental wheel ACTUALLY WORKS THE WAY ITS REPEATEDLY SHOWN AND STATED TO WORK...Genuinely cannot believe how many times I see morons arguing against it.


If you give said Morons a benefit of doubt, it only works if advantageous element is equal to or stronger than the weaker element( like how wood God said). So a far stronger fire may overcome a much weaker water element jutsu. So maybe most people just get caught up there. ( My boy don't need no elemental wheel ).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Jan 15, 2019)

Hashirama/Uchiha's and 2nd/3rd Hokage aren't as powerful a s they are made out to be.


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## Esano (Jan 15, 2019)

I know this thread isn't really about debating and more about giving opinions, but....



MaruUchiha said:


> Naruto has been stronger than Sasuke the entire series



How is Academy Naruto stronger than Sasuke?
How is BoS Naruto stronger than Sasuke when Sasuke beat him and his whole team?



> Kaguya isn't as much of a threat as people think since she's a fucking idiot in battle



She has Zetsu tho, and stupidity isn't everything, almost nothing could kill or seal her. Someone like JJ Madara may be a greater threat, but do you think anyone outside God Tiers could do anything to her? "isn't much of a threat" implies she is like Hidan level or something. Heck I wouldn't even say Hidan "isn't much of a threat". 

She

Can kill almost everyone in one hit easily
Can blitz almost everyone easily
Can tank almost anything easily
Can regenerate from almost anything easily




> Sage Mode Mitsuki is Kage Tier


Because of him attacking Oro?



> BoS Gaara > War Gaara & Adult Gaara


Just because of Shukaku?


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 15, 2019)

Gaiden Kakashi > VotE Naruto + VotE Sasuke
Immortals Arc: Naruto >= Kakashi >= Gai
Hiruzen is one of the 5 strongest Kage in history.
Kaguya >> JJ Hagoromo
Base Hashirama > BSM Naruto (pre-Hagoromo)
Edo Madara >> VotE Madara
Mu, Gengetsu & A3 > Orochimaru, Jiraiya & Tsunade
Current Kakashi > WA Kakashi
Kakashi >= 7th Gate Gai since the beginning of manga.
There isnt a Hyūga in the manga that has been High Jonin level, much less Kage level.
Kid Obito was Jonin level
Kid Kakashi > Kurenai
Pain Arc Naruto > 1-8 Bijuu
Only Deva Path and Animal Path are Kage level, and only Low Kage, the others are Low-Mid Jonin level.
Any High Jonin level ninja can fight againts a V2 Jinchuriki.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Esano (Jan 15, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Gaiden Kakashi > VotE Naruto + VotE Sasuke
> 
> Immortals Arc: Naruto >= Kakashi >= Gai
> 
> ...




Reasons?


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 15, 2019)

Esano said:


> Reasons?



Base Hashirama was able to defeat EMS Madara, and Mokuryu has a power equal to 100% Kurama, I'm sure War Naruto w Toad Sage Mode + 50% Kurama does not compare to that.

Hagoromo and Hamura only inherited 50% of Kaguya's power and needed to fight together to defeat her, having the Juubi is not a big improvement compared to the power of Hagoromo, he already had RSM + Rikudo Senjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Esano (Jan 15, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Base Hashirama was able to defeat EMS Madara, and Mokuryu has a power equal to 100% Kurama, I'm sure War Naruto w Toad Sage Mode + 50% Kurama does not compare to that.



Edit: Actually I read this wrong. I'm not sure I agree that Kurama>BSM Naruto.




> Hagoromo and Hamura only inherited 50% of Kaguya's power and needed to fight together to defeat her, having the Juubi is not a big improvement compared to the power of Hagoromo, he already had RSM + Rikudo Senjutsu.



I guess that makes sense. I would think think having the Juubi would be a bigger deal considering how Kaguya got her powers though.

Honestly though, the whole Juubi/Tree/Fruit/Kaguya whole shitstorm is something I still don't quite understand. Especially when you bring in the Doujutsu changes. It's the only part of the Manga I think is truly confusing.


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## Mar55 (Jan 15, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Base Hashirama was able to defeat EMS Madara


When? We never even see EMS Madara (with full power) fight and lost to Hashirama without Sage Mode.

Wouldn't really make sense, considering nothing in base Hashi's arsenal can harm Madara through PS. Meanwhile, Madara has shown he can easily destroy all of his base arsenal.


Soldierofficial said:


> and Mokuryu has a power equal to 100% Kurama


Kurama literally one shot that dragon.


Soldierofficial said:


> I'm sure War Naruto w Toad Sage Mode + 50% Kurama does not compare to that.


Probably because your claims and math are both wrong.


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## Mar55 (Jan 15, 2019)

Don't know of the popularity, but EMS Madara > Base Hashirama.


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## Soldierofficial (Jan 15, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> When? We never even see EMS Madara (with full power) fight and lost to Hashirama without Sage Mode.
> Wouldn't really make sense, considering nothing in base Hashi's arsenal can harm Madara through PS. Meanwhile, Madara has shown he can easily destroy all of his base arsenal.



Mokuryu and Perfect Susanoo tied as per canon.



> Kurama literally one shot that dragon.



What? Base Hashirama's Mokuryu tanked a TBB from 100% kurama without a scratch.



> Probably because your claims and math are both wrong.



No.

100% Kurama > 50% Kurama + Base Naruto's chakra + Toad SM Amp

You think War SM Naruto is more powerful than 50% Kurama?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Esano (Jan 15, 2019)

Actually, now that I re-read what you said, I'm not sure BSM Naruto would be below 50% Kurama. Stacking SM on top of BM would be pretty damn powerful, and he also fought someone who is stronger than Hashirama, even though they would have lost without TnJ.

I don't think saying it doesn't even come close is fair.


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## Kannon (Jan 15, 2019)

Juubito isn't weaker than Tenseigan Toneri and a fight between them would go either way.

And the most ridiculous thing which is the notion that Byakugan Hamura= Non-Jin Hagoromo. Just because of nothing but portrayal. If people take that as true but can't accept the notion that War Arc Sakura = to KCM Naruto & EMS Sasuke, then they are hypocrites lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Jan 15, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Mokuryu and Perfect Susanoo tied as per canon.


This literally never happens, you must he thinking of a SM Wood Golem.


Soldierofficial said:


> What? Base Hashirama's Mokuryu tanked a TBB from 100% kurama without a scratch.


You do realize Mokūryū is the Wood Dragon, right? The same wood dragon that was destroyed by the sheer momentum of that TBB.


Soldierofficial said:


> 100% Kurama > 50% Kurama + Base Naruto's chakra + Toad SM Amp


Disagree.


Soldierofficial said:


> You think War SM Naruto is more powerful than 50% Kurama?


I think it's irrelevant to BSM being > Kurama/Hashi. After all, it's not SM Naruto + BM. It's BM Naruto + SM stacked.

Anyway, in terms of pure feats, BSM > anything Kurama has done alone. Hell, even BM Naruto has better feats outright. Which is understandable, as Jin > Bijū.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 15, 2019)

Naruto IA= Hebi Sasuke 

Sandaime Raikage = Ei(4)

Gengetsu isn’t that much stronger than Gaara in the war arc 

Onoki is slightly stronger than Mu 

Itachi when healthy is closer to Nagato than most of the fandom thinks 

Itachi would’ve defeated Kabuto in direct combat with killing intent 

Minato is stronger than Pain 

Naruto’s Sage Mode by the end of the series was comparable to base Minato 

Tailed Beast Besides Kurama are overrated and many Kage Levels can fight on par with them 

Minato with BM was close to Hashirama/Madara 


Sakura was an impressive ninja throughout pt 2 


Boruto Kids >> Naruto Kids

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Tsunade = itachi
And she is more likely to defeat him than otherwise seeing the whole senju > uchiha thing


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Sm jman & sm naruto > sm kabuto
(Each on his own)

Assuming no ET


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Esano said:


> Sasuke beat him and his whole team?


Never happened.


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## Ishmael (Jan 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hebi Sasuke is Sannin Tier
> Jiraiya is a really shitty character from both a written perspective and a combat one (in the grand scheme of things)
> Rock lee should have literally pasted Gaara when they fought and he used Hidden Lotus. They should be cleaning whats left of Gaara off the floor of that arena to this day.
> Hiruzen (all versions) is mad overrated
> ...



Damn straight facts well what do you know  great minds think a like.


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## goombanthime (Jan 15, 2019)

Topace said:


> Literally nothing in the manga supports this. Not a scan, a feat, a statement. Nothing.


Gaara used Shukaku to boost himself in BoS


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## oiety (Jan 15, 2019)

Minato could beat Pain. BM Killer Bee could beat Pain. More people can beat Pain than people will often acknowledge.

A Boss Summon is generally not capable of taking on a kage level opponent. There are some matchup exceptions, but they're generally just stalemates when it comes to something like A4 vs Katsuyu. 

Far and away the best character in the series was Kisame, who knew suicide was the only way to leave the manga before it got even worse. 

EoS Orochimaru probably has Sage Mode.

Shin could definitely get the drop on a few Kages, and is underrated.

The new Gokage are far and away underrated-powercreep is a thing.

Adult Gaara is right below people like Hashirama and Madara at this point. 

Orochimaru with the Edo Tenseis he can actually control (so Hiruzen, Tobirama, Minato) is still top tier.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Sakura is a decent character


She's the poster girl for character regression. Naruto isn't a good character either with his hard-on for Sasuke, but Sakura was just... jarring to have to watch.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

-Kurama is far stronger than Hashi's Golem and Asspulldara's PS
- SM Naruto is considerably stronger than MS Sasuke
- RM Naruto is at least one or two tiers above Rinnegan Sasuke's level
- DMS Kakashi is around the same level as EMS Asspulldara for a few minutes.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

1. Edo doesn't put oro above his normal level or the other sannin.

2. Funny cuz this one is actually a fact rather than opinion.
SAKURA = KURAMA MODE NARUTO = EMS SASUKE.

3. Ems sasuke cannot have PS when he needed kurama chakra to make a legged one..
And even then, making a susanoo armor with identical features to a PS does not mean that sasuke's PS would = edo madara's.

4. Sakura attracts hate fueled bias.. For example;

Sakura: *physically reacts to kaguya and her chakra arms and hurts her.
People of NBD: "i'm just gonna close my eyes and pretend this didn't happen. I hate sakura and she can't do sth like that (even if she did)"

Gaara: *does a similar thing to momo
People of NBD: "Yas!, go gaara!, he's definitely founders level"


5.)The sannin deadlock.
Manga, databooks:
-Only a sannin can hope to defeat another sannin.
-titles the sannin battle chapter "deadlock"

But the people of NBD would sooner rank tsunade 1 or 2 tiers below her fellows


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> SAKURA = KURAMA MODE NARUTO = EMS SASUKE.


 

> speedy
> "this one is actually a fact rather than opinion."
>


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> > speedy
> > "this one is actually a fact rather than opinion."
> >


I don't see how this changes anything..
They are stated equals.
Sasuke was planning to kill the kage and other people at the time. Seeing naruto being just as strong as him is enough to annoy him.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> I don't see how this changes anything..
> They are stated equals.
> Sasuke was planning to kill the kage and other people at the time. Seeing naruto being just as strong as him is enough to annoy him.


Where was it stated that they are equal? 



> Seeing naruto being just as strong as him is enough to annoy him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Meanwhile on the other hand,





Hussain said:


> Sm jman & sm naruto > sm kabuto
> (Each on his own)
> 
> Assuming no ET


This has no backing whatsoever


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Another unpopular opinion....

the wood in the manga is extremely fragile and can easily be destroyed

- "Base" Hashirama is not as strong as people make him out to be. The difference maker (compared to other Kages) is mainly his Buddha. 

- itachi's level is around the regular Kages (A, Onoki, Mei...etc). They beat him counting matchups, although he will probably defeat them due to Kishi's favoritism in the manga...


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Hebi Sasuke's feats are not as impressive as people make them out to be.

defeating Oro on his bed and at his weakest point is not impressive.
Defeating Deidara with some plot power (surviving C0) and despite element, advantage does not prove that Sasuke is at a higher level.
especially when have seen Deidara and Sasori getting blitzed by Sai.

- itachi needs Susanoo to defeat Hebi Sasuke. Otherwise, he can't win.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Where was it stated that they are equal?


In DB4. TWICE.


It wa once again reinstated in the last guidebook: 

It was also implied in manga chaptrr 634. as the chapter was titled "the new three way deadlock".


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> In DB4. TWICE.
> 
> 
> It wa once again reinstated in the last guidebook:
> ...


I am asking about the Sasuke part... 

Also, Naruto trashes her. Let's not kid ourselves.


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## Ishmael (Jan 15, 2019)

This has become a dick  riding and hate thread smh


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I am asking about the Sasuke part...


how can sakura be considered on par with *both* of them if one is stonger than the other?



> Also, Naruto trashes her. Let's not kid ourselves.


which is the exact opposite of what was stated and exactly why i listed it in this thread based on "unpopular opinions" even tho its true



Hussain said:


> Another unpopular opinion....
> 
> the wood in the manga is extremely fragile and can easily be destroyed
> 
> ...





Hussain said:


> Hebi Sasuke's feats are not as impressive as people make them out to be.
> 
> defeating Oro on his bed and at his weakest point is not impressive.
> Defeating Deidara with some plot power (surviving C0) and despite element, advantage does not prove that Sasuke is at a higher level.
> ...


I agree with these tho


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Twisting statements, disregarding other statements you don’t like & ignoring feats that contradict your rhetoric isn’t good debating


Whats your take on sakura being on par with kcm naruto and ems sasuke then


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> how can sakura be considered on par with *both* of them if one is stonger than the other?


she is not.
Sakura was simply left in the dust when they were battling. At that moment, she fought alongside them. 
(Ironically, she was left in the dust shortly after that as well, and stayed in the background) 


Sasuke's reactions show that Naruto was ahead of him, not at his level. 



Speedyamell said:


> which is the exact opposite of what was stated and exactly why i listed it in this thread based on "unpopular opinions" even tho its true


Pffff 


you brought a page from the Last to allegedly prove that she is on their level. You seriously think Sakura not only is she is as strong
as Naruto with Kurama and Sasuke with itachi's eyes, but she is as strong as them with Hago's power as well? Come on now... ck




Speedyamell said:


> I agree with these tho







Speedyamell said:


> This has no backing whatsoever


while at it, there is not statement/hype/portrayal...etc
that puts Kabuto > SM Naruto/Jman.

people just take it like that because he embarrassed the uchiha. 

you are saying "there is no backing whatsoever"
well, what "backing" is there for Kabuto to be stronger than SM Naruto/Jman?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 15, 2019)

1. Yang/Yin Kurama grew back to about the size of the original.:
 Gamabunta is about the same size as Kurama without his tails and Humans are about the size of his eyeballs in most pictures. When in Majestic Armor Susano'o 2 humans can fit comfortably in the diamond on his head.
He is shown to be the same size at the other tailed beast (closer to the taller Kokuò in size) both while found and as adults.
The one tail who hates Kurama and loves to talk shit never brought up a massive size change.

This is true of every Kurama form. Also he has shown the ability to grow back from having his chakra sealed by snacking on Naruto's chakra in cannon. 

Unless Gamabunta shrank when Kurama did the first time 


2. WA Sakura is a good character and can stand on the battlefield next to the fate bros like she is stated/shown to do.

3. Nagato would push either EMS Madara or Hashirama to High/Max diff.

4. Dodai, Darui, Konan, IA Naruto, and Kakashi without Kamui are underrated 

More later

Reactions: Like 4


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> she is not.
> Sakura was simply left in the dust when they were battling. At that moment, she fought alongside them.
> (Ironically, she was left in the dust shortly after that as well, and stayed in the background)
> 
> ...


but it *was* stated that she *was* on par with them.
But i'm curiois why do you think she isn't?

Sakura was never left in the dust  she stayed back to prevent the poor souls of the alliance from dying.
Are you implying she couldn't have fought obito like they did? Kappa
Lol. Even tho we see her nullify tsb effects, and perceive & hurt kaguya who's >> obito while she was weakened?


This is wrong.
Sasuke's reaction didn't imply naruto was stronger. As we have infact seen the before: 
He was just as shook here. Doesn't change the fact that he still won when they actually foughg tho.





> Pffff
> 
> 
> you brought a page from the Last to allegedly prove that she is on their level. You seriously think Sakura not only is she is as strong
> as Naruto with Kurama and Sasuke with itachi's eyes, but she is as strong as them with Hago's power as well? Come on now... ck


all the times the statement were made refered to when sakura completed byakugo and therefore the naruto and sasuke at that period. Not their rikudo variants or Bsm naruto.





> while at it, there is not statement/hype/portrayal...etc
> that puts Kabuto > SM Naruto/Jman.
> 
> people just take it like that because he embarrassed the uchiha.
> ...


C'mon.
Jiraiya was stated to be someone that *matched* oro.
Kabuto attained a power that was above oro's so how can you conclude jiraiya > kabuto??


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## Grinningfox (Jan 15, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> Gaiden Obito is Jounin level with 2T Sharingan..



No...........not you


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 15, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> She's the poster girl for character regression. Naruto isn't a good character either with his hard-on for Sasuke, but Sakura was just... jarring to have to watch.


They both did the same thing but she gets hate for it. It's a double standard.


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## Shazam (Jan 15, 2019)

WA 3T Kakashi > 3T Itachi 
Hokage Kakashi > Mid Tier Akatsuki Members 
Pain Arc Naruto >= Jiraiya  (in 1v1; not on matters of SM mastery) 
MS Sasuke >= MS Itachi 
Jiraiya = Itachi 
Edo Hiruzen is underrated 
Itachi fans get more angry in debates than any other fan base 
Adult Sakura is actually cool asf
Hebi Sasuke = Kakuzu 
The masters are more legendary in the shinobi world after the war arc than the Sannin ever were

Reactions: Like 1


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## Omote (Jan 15, 2019)

How can anyone be a fan of Sakura?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> How can anyone be a fan of Sakura?


Easy


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## Shazam (Jan 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> How can anyone be a fan of Sakura?



Part 1 Sakura was THE worst however, as she got older she got better, it wasn't until Boruto era where I even acknowledged her at all as a character of the series


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> How can anyone be a fan of Sakura?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> No...........not you


I sense you have a problem.


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## Omote (Jan 15, 2019)

I'm talking to every person who thinks a useless girl that fell into an abusive relationship is worth admiring

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Jan 15, 2019)

1) Hiruzen isn’t stronger than Tobirama or Minato, be it younger or old or Edo Version.
2) In General I rank all featless characters (Young Hiruzen, Young Hanzo, Shisui, Izuna, Kara Members) as less  powerful than most people
3)Kiki Kashin is a discount Jiraya to me. You know, when someone tries to sell you a fake version of a Luis Vouitton bag who looks like a true Luis Vuitton but in reality it’s a fake with low-quality materials but you still buy it because it’s cheap and allows you to pretend to be rich? That’s it, Koji is like the fake Luis Vuitton of Naruto world.
4) Hidan is low kage, stronger than elit Jounin like Yamato, Kimimaro etc
5) I’m the sexiest member of this forum


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Part 1 Sakura was THE worst however, as she got older she got better, it wasn't until Boruto era where I even acknowledged her at all as a character of the series


P1 Sakura is the reason why people fondly call other worthless characters as the Sakura of their Manga/Anime universe.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> I'm talking to every person who thinks a useless girl that fell into an abusive relationship is worth admiring


Oh. Not me then


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## Omote (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Oh. Not me then



Don't kid yourself, you're the premier Sakura Stan


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> I'm talking to every person who thinks a useless girl that fell into an abusive relationship is worth admiring


Except she wasn't useless and Naruto needed an entire movie for Naruhina to make sense.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Part 1 Sakura was THE worst however, as she got older she got better, it wasn't until Boruto era where I even acknowledged her at all as a character of the series


You probably were an anime watcher at the beginning then


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## Shazam (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> You probably were an anime watcher at the beginning then



I started watching the English dub, that was my introduction, and then once I reached a point of the series, I started reading the manga to get ahead of it all, sometime after the Chunin Exams


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## Omote (Jan 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Except she wasn't useless and Naruto needed an entire movie for Naruhina to make sense.



Don't worry, I think Hinata is a worse character than Sakura 

Her being useless for part 1 is a loooong stretch of time and most of her contributions are pretty useless

Still not as useless to the plot as Hinata


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## Shazam (Jan 15, 2019)

@Speedyamell Part 1 Sakura had very little redeeming qualities though.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> Don't kid yourself, you're the premier Sakura Stan


Your statement was refering to people that thought a useless girl in an abusive relationship is worth admiring?

And i don't "stan" a useless girl, neither do i stan one in an abusive relationship.. You're clearly confused


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## Omote (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Your statement was refering to people that thought a useless girl in an abusive relationship is worth admiring?
> 
> And i don't "stan" a useless girl, neither do i stan one in an abusive relationship.. You're clearly confused



You:re almost as bad as an Itachi fan


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> @Speedyamell Part 1 Sakura had very little redeeming qualities though.


Nah.. the anime made sakura easy to hate..the little things they added or removed served to make her annoying.
With the manga version tho, while she is certainly annoying at the start, she becomes a more humane character later. 
I'm pretty sure sakura's highest popularity poll position ever came from p1 around the chunin exams


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## King1 (Jan 15, 2019)




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## Shazam (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Nah.. the anime made sakura easy to hate..the little things they added or removed served to make her annoying.
> With the manga version tho, while she is certainly annoying at the start, she becomes a more humane character later.
> I'm pretty sure sakura's highest popularity poll position ever came from p1 around the chunin exams



Honestly what I disliked most about Sakura through most of the series was her seemingly refusal to acknowledge Naruto as someone powerful and as someone special. While doing exactly that for Sasuke at every single turn. She didn't have to like Naruto (emotionally like she did Sasuke) but even Hinata acknowledged her own teammates and their strength when displayed. Sakura, even in Shippuden at times, looked at Naruto as if he were just somebody blocking her view of Sasuke and nothing else.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Honestly what I disliked most about Sakura through most of the series was her seemingly refusal to acknowledge Naruto as someone powerful and as someone special. While doing exactly that for Sasuke at every single turn. She didn't have to like Naruto (emotionally like she did Sasuke) but even Hinata acknowledged her own teammates and their strength when displayed. Sakura, even in Shippuden at times, looked at Naruto as if he were just somebody blocking her view of Sasuke and nothing else.


She truly cared for him just in an annoying brother way.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Honestly what I disliked most about Sakura through most of the series was her seemingly refusal to acknowledge Naruto as someone powerful and as someone special. While doing exactly that for Sasuke at every single turn. She didn't have to like Naruto (emotionally like she did Sasuke) but even Hinata acknowledged her own teammates and their strength when displayed. Sakura, even in Shippuden at times, looked at Naruto as if he were just somebody blocking her view of Sasuke and nothing else.


Another problem from the anime.
In the anime she was still disrepectful to naruto even by bos.
For instance, in the anime version of the second bell test, she kept insulting naruto over and over again.
Things like that tend to tick people off.
By all accounts even i hate the way sakura was depicted in the anime.


In the manga tho she started to respect and care for naruto quickly. Way back in p1.. She was ready to sacrifice her own chances for naruto's dream to be hokage by in the written portion of the test. 
And she repeatedly acknowledged him. Even tho she was in loved sasuke more, it was naruto that was her inspiration. Hell she belittled sasuke at one point.. While praising naruto when sasuke was trembling at the sight of oro

Reactions: Like 1


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## Topace (Jan 15, 2019)

That moment when you try to rewrite canon then say it’s my opinion


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## Shazam (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Another problem from the anime.
> In the anime she was still disrepectful to naruto even by bos.
> For instance, in the anime version of the second bell test, she kept insulting naruto over and over again.
> Things like that tend to tick people off.
> ...



Suppose I'll have to go back and read those early chapters

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jan 15, 2019)

Esano said:


> How is Academy Naruto stronger than Sasuke?


Kyuubi Mode plus Sasuke lost to Naruto in chapter 3


Esano said:


> How is BoS Naruto stronger than Sasuke when Sasuke beat him and his whole team?


None of the team had killing intent, Naruto was exhausted, and Yamato wasn't even serious yet and made that clear


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> This is wrong.
> Sasuke's reaction didn't imply naruto was stronger. As we have infact seen the before:
> He was just as shook here. Doesn't change the fact that he still won when they actually foughg tho.


I agree that Sakura is hated and way underrated but I have to disagree with you here.

Sasuke was shook as fuck because he knew he was going to die if they had clashed. Same as later on in the war arc when he realized he was still weaker. 
He flat out admits to having an inferiority complex against Naruto since they got together and he saw Naruto grow  

Also post Cs2 Sasuke =/= Hospital Rooftop Sasuke. He came out of that barrel a changed man.

And Naruto and he were clearly dead even at the VotE 


SakuraLover16 said:


> Naruto needed an entire movie for Naruhina to make sense


I am genuinely fond of you and love most of your post.

 That said, don't make me come over there. 

We have been over this. 

Those two have been doing cute shit since the Chunin Exam when she and Naruto rooted for each other and she gave him some healing cream. Then during the break he told her he like people like her.

The first thing the author did when he got back from the break was have her tripping about it. 

Then when she finally got more screen time it was coming to save Naruto when everyone else was bitching up and watching from the damn bleachers.
Seeing her admit that she loved him and get got by pain triggered him so hard he was willing to break the seal even though he has known that would Kill him since he was like 12. 
The dude straight up even broke into tears when Katsuyu told him she was alive. 

By the FKS, Naruto was so done with Sakura her kunoichi tricks didnt work on him and he could tell she was lying.
Why?
Because he knew what it was like when a real G tells you she loves you and means it.

The war arc cemented it when Hinata said "no more of this behind him shit!" After he called her strong. She slapped the bitch up out of him when Neji died and has a joygasm when they held hands for the power transfer unlike the pat on the back he gave everyone else. And the two even got a cute moment when he needed her to throw his Rasenshruiken.

By the time the The Last rolled around, the author has set them up so well the only weird part was that they were only friends still.

Which they explained in the movie anyway. 

The dude has no idea what a healthy relationship is supposed to look like.




P.S. Sasuke and Sakura have actively tried to kill each other. Thats kind of fucked up, no?


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Suppose I'll have to go back and read those early chapters


I can assure you'll see many things (and not just sakura), in a different light.
Sp messed with a lot of things. Even down to her looks.. They made her look like a brick in comparison.
You almost wouldn't know they were the same character..

What the fuck is that


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## wooly Eullerex (Jan 15, 2019)

-the shadow clone jutsu does not weaken/restrict a shinobi at all in terms of_ stats_ or _jutsu_(except 4 kakashi using kamui w/o uchiha blood or itachi using a full susano'o) . the multi-shadow clone jutsu is a different story...
-ghost kamui>amaterasu>sniper kamui- in terms of hax & utility
-zetsu ate jiraiyas' corpse
-Tsutenkyaku & 0kasho vs the juubilings take extremely minimal amounts of chakra, more akin to using hien or chakra scalpel
- CES is a misnomer - it only creates shockwave strikes. tsunade has natural brute strength, sakura doesn't
-asura laser can stalemate jin'ton & fodderise any other elemental jutsu
-kisame cannot breathe underwater without fusion
-_haku_ can perform ''touch of death'' like _gari & pakura_
-raiden is a worthless jutsu; gai is purely fan service/comic relief & shouldn't be taken seriously
-even without E.T, 0ro beats minato, tobirama, san-nin, tsuchikage's, danzo & raikage's 1v1
- hiruzen beats them all too
- Pein = Nagato
- jin'ton & daikodan cannot beat ANY bijuudama
- ranged/sniper kamui will lose out to any Shinra-T as well as Chibaku-T & preta bubble barrier
- ranged/sniper kamui cannot warp large scale elemental jutsu in general unless they're linear
- SRA gaara is ''elite jounin'' or entry kage level
- say what U want about Jiraiya & Tsunade, but 0rochimaru, *without* E.T., is *high* kage level
- old hiruzen is on par w/ alive minato & Tobirama by feats & portrayal
- danzo without izanagi & koto is on par w/ base j-man, tsunade & base orochimaru
- danzo without izanagi & koto is stronger than the ''mid-tier akatsuki''
- a healthy kimimaro is elite jounin level by virtue of mastering the earth seal alone
- a healthy kimimaro is stronger than end of part 1 sasuke & naruto at votE
- trained in evasion is so to form a mindset under fire & situational priority, not a special skill, speed/reflex or cqc precedent
- ''kage level'' has nothing to do w/ matchups/direct combat ability. its a portrayal of jutsu prowess
- defining ''kage level'' is the absolute only thing portrayal is good for, not matchup outcomes
- KCM naruto, 0bito w/ paths & konoha invasion Pein/nagato are in 'top tier' or above/beyond kage level
- peak Kabuto, without E.T., is the strongest high kage level/non-top tier shinobi
- Rai'ton armor passively electrocutes people on contact
- gai in gates is a glass canon
- gates are mutually exclisive with ninjutsu & its subcategories. they cannot be done simultaneously, let alone boost each
-onoki cannot weigh down an active lightning armor user
-bm choji has the most brute strength in the manga without using bijuu
-hiramekarei is the strongest mist sword by far
-wind is a much better element than lightning _even when FRS & the W>L nature adv. is ignored_
-human path/Nagato can effortlessly take totsuka & yata away from armed/manifested Itachi
-ST can dispel kamui & jin'ton
- the only ninja worth mentioning that Gaara can beat is Gengetsu
-juugo is not a ninja
-konan beats onoki, deidara, kakashi, gai & gengetsu more times than not
- hiashi beats war arc kakashi & mei more times than not
-Tsunade cannot beat sasori, poison or not
-sasori beats gaara & tobirama more times than not
-choji can beat kisame
-yamato beats kitsuchi & darui more times than not
-mountain sandwich & kirikiri.no.Mai are not a threat to any jounin or kage
-poison & drowning won't hinder hidan or stop kakuzu
-um, that minato, tobirama & hiruzen have Rashoumon
-jin'ton doesnot use shape/spatial manipulation at all, only nature
-deidaras kinjutsu doesn't have an elemental weakness. its not weak to rai'ton. it is a matter of utility as its the only element than permeates 
-konans real body is present at all times - its misdirection
-daikodan doesnot absorb anything. it ''grabs'' incoming attacks  and so ''doubles-up'' on its own counter-attack power
-kakashi cannot warp himself -_into-_ Q-Berts room 
- muki tensei/inorganic reanimation is a misnomer. it works on trees, vegetation & water sources,  not  just rocks/soil
-3rd raikage can potentially be 1-shot by Mei, Kiba, Mifune, the Kusanagi, Danzo-Baku & much more


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 15, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That said, don't make me come over there.


I sowwy 


Hi no Ishi said:


> P.S. Sasuke and Sakura have actively tried to kill each other. Thats kind of fucked up, no?


Mainly Sasuke but I'll do a bit of explaining. Sasuke and Sakura have had moments in part one as well. Sasuke's main problem is that he thought (stupidly) that severing his bonds was the only way he would become stronger (enough to defeat Itachi) Sakura thought that she should kill him so Naruto wouldn't have to and regret it his whole life so she took the initiative and defeated the other Konoha 12 (those who went with her) to kill him herself. Mind you all through the series Sasuke is blinded by revenge and did whatever he could to get it. It was only after he was defeated by Naruto did he come to his senses and at that point he apologized (which is a very big thing for Sasuke) and then later they bumped uglies and had Sarada. 

See my sig for more information.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I agree that Sakura is hated and way underrated








> Sasuke was shook as fuck because he knew he was going to die if they had clashed. Same as later on in the war arc when he realized he was still weaker.
> He flat out admits to having an inferiority complex against Naruto since they got together and he saw Naruto grow
> 
> Also post Cs2 Sasuke =/= Hospital Rooftop Sasuke. He came out of that barrel a changed man.
> ...


Your point doesn't against what i said.. It infact supports it.
Sasuke does show inferiority complex towards naruto. But that doesn't mean he's really inferior. Sasuke's frustration at naruto's power is understandable for someone that was planning to commit multiple atrocities at the time, since he knew it meant naruto could stand in his way.

The scan you posted shows sauke admitting he felt inferior in p1 but it went both ways as naruto was the first to admit he used to feel inferior..
Despite being even as you say, both of them felt inferiority to each other.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

I don't know why I don't feel to post anything now >_>
But here is a quick reply...



Speedyamell said:


> But i'm curiois why do you think she isn't?


feats


Speedyamell said:


> Sasuke's reaction didn't imply naruto was stronger. As we have infact seen the before:


it did actually. He was going to be killed in that battle as Kakashi stated.


Speedyamell said:


> He was just as shook here. Doesn't change the fact that he still won when they actually foughg tho.


he won after he got new power.
and Naruto just finished going through the sounds 5... 


Speedyamell said:


> C'mon.
> Jiraiya was stated to be someone that *matched* oro.
> Kabuto attained a power that was above oro's so how can you conclude jiraiya > kabuto??



I don't remember the details, but Kabuto (as far as I remember)  was saying he got SM, something Oro was never able to accomplish.
Same thing is true for Jiraiya.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

this one is unpopular as well.. 

the Gokage would have destroyed Asspulldara's PS with the massive Jinton
had they actually attacked it. But PIS and what it does...


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> feats


what feats? Especially in sasuke's case



> it did actually. He was going to be killed in that battle as Kakashi stated.


When'd kakashi state that?


ems sasuke ~ kurama naruto.
Sasuke being annoyed by naruto's strength doesn't dissuade that.
You like me believes Sm naruto > ms sasuke.
But if we use the logic you're applying here,
Ms sasuke > Half blind sasuke = Fks naruto.
Since naruto said he and an exhausted sasuke would kill each other if they fought.




> I don't remember the details, but Kabuto (as far as I remember)  was saying he got SM, something Oro was never able to accomplish.
> Same thing is true for Jiraiya.


Jman was said to be a match for oro. Non of their abilities were excluded from that comparison which includes Sm.
Kabuto > oro = jman
Kabuto > ems sasuke > sm naruto


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 15, 2019)

Not sure how unpopular this opinion is but...

Tiers in the Narutoverse are more compressed than most would believe, at least post Jounin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Jan 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Not sure how unpopular this opinion is but...
> 
> Tiers in the Narutoverse are more compressed than most would believe, at least post Jounin.



Definitely agree. This isnt Freeza Saga with Scouters after all. In Naruto jutsu and different abilities play a big role and will many times diminish "tier groupings"


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Not sure how unpopular this opinion is but...
> 
> Tiers in the Narutoverse are more compressed than most would believe, at least post Jounin.


How do you mean


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> what feats? Especially in sasuke's case


defeating 5 Bijuus?
tanking the Juubi's TBB?
cutting the Juubi tails?
outspeeding the Raikage
tanking Han's attacks even though he is powered up by the 5tails?
...etc etc

He is faster and stronger than her in every aspect. 

Don't care about Sasuke. You can pick some Sasuke's fan to debate with him... 



Speedyamell said:


> Sasuke being annoyed by naruto's strength doesn't dissuade that.


Yes, it does. Sasuke was clearly showing hin inferiority.



Speedyamell said:


> You like me believes Sm naruto > ms sasuke.


Yes. 


Speedyamell said:


> Since naruto said he and an exhausted sasuke would kill each other if they fought.


he did not say that. 
But even if we were to take your fanfiction, it's not entirely false either. Since Naruto was poisoned thanks
to Sakura being incompetent. So, yeah, he could have died thanks to that. 



Speedyamell said:


> Jman was said to be a match for oro. Non of their abilities were excluded from that comparison which includes Sm.
> Kabuto > oro = jman
> Kabuto > ems sasuke > sm naruto


Then, that will make it
Kabuto = oro = Jman. 

Since if SM does not change that, then the same goes for snake's SM.
From where did you get that Snake's SM is stronger than Frog's SM?


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## Grinningfox (Jan 15, 2019)

Kakashi was a solid sensei at least in comparison to his counterparts.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> How do you mean



Well for example some people think it takes 45 Tsunade's to have a chance against Hashirama. I don't see it that way.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Honestly what I disliked most about Sakura through most of the series was her seemingly refusal to acknowledge Naruto as someone powerful and as someone special. While doing exactly that for Sasuke at every single turn. She didn't have to like Naruto (emotionally like she did Sasuke) but even Hinata acknowledged her own teammates and their strength when displayed. Sakura, even in Shippuden at times, looked at Naruto as if he were just somebody blocking her view of Sasuke and nothing else.


She's a straight up bitch.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> defeating 5 Bijuus?
> tanking the Juubi's TBB?
> cutting the Juubi tails?
> outspeeding the Raikage
> ...


-Naruto didn't defeat 5 bijus tho. He fought five bijus alongside bee.. Bijus that were fighting against their will.
I don't know why think sakura couldn't have done the same 

-Good for him.
Sakura survived getting impaled by a tsb which would have killed naruto.

-cutting the juubi's tail??
How is that more impressive than punching kaguya's horn off without using full power tho??

-good for him.
Sakura reacted and temporarily ran out from underneath kaguya's chakra arms that almost blitz rikudo naruto.
Oh. And she reacted & intercepted a moving kaguya with a punch.

-i'm confused.. So sakura would die to hans attacks??

Nothing you posted proved he's better in every way.. Tho.




> Don't care about Sasuke. You can pick some Sasuke's fan to debate with him...


Lol




> Yes, it does. Sasuke was clearly showing hin inferiority.


we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Seeing naruto being as strong as him is sufficient for the reaction he gave given his plans.



> he did not say that.
> But even if we were to talk your fanfiction, it's not entirely false either. Since Naruto was poisoned thanks
> to Sakura being incompetent. So, yeah, he could have died thanks to that.



You win this time hussain.. you win this time.




> Then, that will make it
> Kabuto = oro = Jman.
> 
> Since if SM does not change that, then the same goes for snake's SM.
> From where did you get that Snake's SM is stronger than Frog's SM?


how did you come to that conclusion?? Kabuto had sm ontop of oro's powers. Oro's powers was enough to match jiraiya and his Sm.
Just because two peole have Sm doesn't mean they are equals


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Well for example some people think it takes 45 Tsunade's to have a chance against Hashirama. I don't see it that way.


Lol. Who dat??


Anyway, did you mean to say the tiers are closer to you?


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## narut0ninjafan (Jan 15, 2019)

Sasori is the second weakest Akatsuki after Hidan

Even a BOS Sakura was able to exploit his weakness as a puppet master after a little assistance. A Sakura that had to hold back her full power because she was gathering chakra for Byakugou too mind you 

The only thing he really has going for him is Deidara's supposed admission of inferiority but that can very easily be interpreted as him wanting Kakashi to back up Chiyo and Sakura, which was pretty clearly implied by his reaction to Naruto saying he'll handle Deidara on his own imo


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> I don't know why think sakura couldn't have done the same


please, tell us more. 
what is Sakura going to do against those TBBs?



or this one?




Speedyamell said:


> -Good for him.
> Sakura survived getting impaled by a tsb which would have killed naruto.


it wouldn't have killed him. 
he would have been simply stabbed just like Sakura was stabbed... 
That's all there is about it... 


Speedyamell said:


> cutting the juubi's tail??
> How is that more impressive than punching kaguya's horn off without using full power tho??



what do you mean "without using full power"? 

But anyway, the Juubi is more tanky than humans. 
it's the same way how Obito was effected by SM Naruto's Rasengan, but the Juubi did not care about all the attacks the SA's did
including SM Naruto's FRS... 



Speedyamell said:


> good for him.
> Sakura reacted and temporarily ran out from underneath kaguya's chakra arms that almost blitz rikudo naruto.
> Oh. And she reacted & intercepted a moving kaguya with a punch



good for her. Except she was already ahead of the arms, and she needed Kakashi to save her.  
reacting to something that comes from far away is not all that impressive if at all...  


> And she reacted & intercepted a moving kaguya with a punch


not sure what you are referring 2... 



Speedyamell said:


> i'm confused.. So sakura would die to hans attacks??
> 
> Nothing you posted proved he's better in every way.. Tho



She won't die, but Han's physical power is stronger than hers. So, since even a direct hit from him couldn't do much to Naruto (KCM)
chances are, even IF Sakura were to be lucky enough to land a hit, she ain't doing jack-shit to Naruto. 




Speedyamell said:


> we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.



sure. 



Speedyamell said:


> Seeing naruto being as strong as him


silliness at it's finest tho. 

> as strong as him. 
> meanwhile, Naruto can smash legged Susanoo with 1 tail. 



Susanoo: "krak, krak"



Speedyamell said:


> You win this time hussain.. you win this time.






Speedyamell said:


> how did you come to that conclusion?? Oro had sm ontop of oro's powers. Oro's powers was enough to match jiraiya and his Sm.
> Just because two peole have Sm doesn't mean they are equals


I am assuming you mean "Kabuto"? 

- But Oro never faced SM Jiraiya, from where you got that it was enough to match Jman and his SM? 
the sannin were separated after the 2nd war and whatnot. They did not know Oro has ET, Oro did not know Tsunade has her Healing jutsu, and they did not know Jman has SM... 



> Just because two peole have Sm doesn't mean they are equals


indeed. 
now, base Kabuto was only around Kakashi's level.
where Jman is stronger than that. Hence, SM Jman & SM Kabuto relation shouldn't make all that much difference.


And even if you were to say "b-b-buut Kabuto's SM is perfect" (Which I highly doubt)
then at the very least, that wouldn't put him above SM Naruto's level, since Naruto has perfect SM as well.

and in base, he was stronger than Kakashi (I.E Kabuto's equal). 
So, yeah, Naruto solos. Sorry to burst your bubble...


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Sakura survived getting impaled by a tsb which would have killed naruto.



Wtf.... TSB's don't hurt him. They are like regular stabbings, he has survived far worse.


Speedyamell said:


> Oh. And she reacted & intercepted a moving kaguya with a punch.



Lmao.. Fail again.
Both were moving towards each other. That's not interception in any country. It's like  running into gunfire with a shield  and saying "lol I was fast enough to intercept bullets."

Reactions: Like 2


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> Wtf.... TSB's don't hurt him. They are like regular stabbings, he has survived far worse.


>tsbs don't hurt him
>they are like regular stabs
 >



> Lmao.. Fail again.
> Both were moving towards each other. That's not interception in any country. It's like  running into gunfire with a shield  and saying "lol I was fast enough to intercept bullets."


are you alright sir?
Holding a shield and running into a bullet isn't identical to what sakura did.
Unlike with the shield example, Sakura didn't simply stretch out her arm like superman and wait for kaguya to run into itck
She threw the punch* as *kaguya was approaching
Which would've required her to be capable of perceiving kaguya's speed and throwing the punch faster than kaguya was travelling

@Hussain i know we are at odds but to think you'd support this


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> please, tell us more.
> what is Sakura going to do against those TBBs?
> 
> 
> ...


I'm coming for this post hussain
Gotta take care of some things first.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> >tsbs don't hurt him
> >they are like regular stabs


If you read the manga you'd know TSB's affect people differently. Depending on the rikoudu chakra. This is a fucking joke.


Speedyamell said:


> are you alright sir?
> Holding a shield and running into a bullet isn't identical to what sakura did.
> Unlike with the shield example, Sakura didn't simply stretch out her arm like superman and wait for


Do you even understand the concept of an 'Interception' dude???  I'll continue after you first learn that.
This is worse than a joke.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> I'm coming for this post hussain
> Gotta take care of some things first.


talk your time, I am going to sleep anyway. 

have goodnight/day...


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## Ishmael (Jan 15, 2019)

To give a good example of an interception feat, look at kakuzu and hidan vs kakashi and team 10. Kakashi was already in motion and going to hit hidan with raikiri. But kakuzu who was behind them both on the ground seemingly dead appeared in front of kakashi in seconds to counter the attack.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> To give a good example of an interception feat, look at kakuzu and hidan vs kakashi and team 10. Kakashi was already in motion and going to hit hidan with raikiri. But kakuzu who was behind them both on the ground seemingly dead appeared in front of kakashi in seconds to counter the attack.


Or Lee Saving Sakura's ass from Dosu in P1 when he got his ear busted, or Naruto saving sakuras's ass from Sasuke when she 'decided to kill him on her own'.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Lol. Who dat??



Keep an eye on any founders threads.



> Anyway, did you mean to say the tiers are closer to you?



Yes. The gap in power between tiers is not as large as some would believe IMO.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 15, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> If you give said Morons a benefit of doubt, it only works if advantageous element is equal to or stronger than the weaker element( like how wood God said). So a far stronger fire may overcome a much weaker water element jutsu. So maybe most people just get caught up there. ( My boy don't need no elemental wheel ).


I have seen cats genuinely  argue that despite a high level fire tech and a high level wind one having clashed on panel in the manga multiple times, and despite the clash always ending in the fire techs victory, thats somehow not evidence of the elemental wheel.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 15, 2019)

Well for starters Itachi's level isn't understood properly. Itachi w/ killing intent beats majority of kage/akatsuki with 1 MS jutsu usage, typically Tsukiyomi. And a fair amount lose to his base 3T paralysis like Orochimaru did and do not make it farther than that.

Orochimaru continued fighting Itachi even after losing that arm, which is why Itachi knows about and remembers Oral Rebirth/Hydra Techniques. 
Itachi's Tsukiyomi would of affected Kurenai and Asuma also if Kakashi didn't warn them. When cast, everyone staring at the sharingan at the time is caught in it. It's the same for regular level genjutsu, the chakra expended is just divided by more targets
Itachi jobbed the entirety of his fight w/ the Jonin in part 1, by allowing Kurenai to dodge his slice, Kakashi/Kurenai to escape his clone explosion, and the Jonin to deal with Tsukiyomi instead of being incinerated by Amaterasu.
MS Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow is too fast to physically evade in the open if Sasuke has LoS on the target. Unless your 3rd/4th Raikage, nature sensitive, bijuu enhanced or maybe Tobirama/Minato your not dodging it and won't have time for many handseals either.
V1 speed punch is around just as hard to dodge really but not as lethal imo.
The jump between power gaps is very substantial. Pain arc Kakashi/BoS Gaara/Jiraiya are all example 'kage' candidates but the author does not nearly portray them equally
Even SM Jiraiya / Orochimaru w/ part 1 edos and arms can solo team combinations like WA Gaara/Mei/Kakuzu/Deidara and there are others stronger than them.

Reactions: Like 3


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jan 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> They both did the same thing but she gets hate for it. It's a double standard.


Naruto was willing to smack the shit out of Sasuke and brutalize him (which he did). Sakura kinda just let everything go without a fight. They both chased after him, but she was by far a lot more jarring in her pursuit. She would've been a better character had she been forced to leave him alone (same goes for Naruto).

Btw if you don't think Naruto gets hate for chasing Sauce, you've probably not run into a large section of the fanbase. I dislike them both myself.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 15, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Naruto was willing to smack the shit out of Sasuke and brutalize him (which he did). Sakura kinda just let everything go without a fight. They both chased after him, but she was by far a lot more jarring in her pursuit. She would've been a better character had she been forced to leave him alone (same goes for Naruto).


Naruto: Sasuke we are friends I won't let you go that easily. Sasuke tries to kill him
Sakura: Sasuke please I love you Sasuke tries to kill her. 
Not much difference between friendship and loving someone. Except there is a possibility of bumping uglies in the second one.


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## Braiyan (Jan 15, 2019)

7th Gate Gai is either faster than A4 at full speed or at worst just as fast as him.

And while we're on the topic of Gai, Hirudora would have killed Kisame if Gai wanted to kill him. It can't be > Morning Peacock, have Kisame himself admit that Morning Peacock is strong enough to kill opponents, then still fail to kill him unless killing him was not the goal.
Resorting to Kamui is a legit tactic for WA Kakashi and a good portion of characters don't have an answer for it, the same way they don't have an answer for other techniques like Susano'o arrows.

By the War Arc, The Masters are both individually stronger than Old Hiruzen. As are Akatsuki members like Deidara, Kisame and Kakuzu.
V2 Bee > 4 Tailed Naruto.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> If you read the manga you'd know TSB's affect people differently. Depending on the rikoudu chakra. This is a fucking joke.


oh please do tell how & why tsbs would affect kcm naruto differently



> Do you even understand the concept of an 'Interception' dude???  I'll continue after you first learn that.
> This is worse than a joke.


Lol. Please just take youe "L" and leave please.
You compared somoene holdin a shield and running into a bullet with it to sakura reacting to kaguya and throwing dat punch after kaguya had begun moving.
Which is more comparable to wonder woman blocking bullets with her bracelets.
Your pitiful downplay attempt backfired


Ps, you know i'm just playin right? No bad blood or ntn


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## kokodeshide (Jan 15, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Kakashi was a solid sensei at least in comparison to his counterparts.


Tell that to P1 Naruto.


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## Grinningfox (Jan 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Tell that to P1 Naruto.



Pray tell

What did Kurenai teach her kids?

What did Minato teach Obito and Rin?

What did Gai teach Neji and Tenten?

What did Asuma teach his team?


These guys have zero obligation to pass on a bunch of technique (if any) to thier squad. They lead Genin on missions and prepare them for the Chunin Exams.  While doing this they may stumble onto a Genin that has potential, or reminds them of themselves, or  whatever and they decide to invest in that SPECIFIC student. Jiraiya found Minato, Kakashi Sasuke, Gai found Lee etc . Again These guys are under zero obligation to  evenly distribute thier time and energy , nor are they expected to .

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Jan 15, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Pray tell
> 
> What did Kurenai teach her kids?


We don't really know, But Shino is a G, Kiba is doing good. and....hinata is...still a chuunin... so kurenai sucks.



Grinningfox said:


> What did Minato teach Obito and Rin?


He taught them the important lesson of, "I am the god of teleportation and I will never use it once to save you guys." Other than that it seems he taught obito pretty well as he was a loser but still a pretty strong shinobi.



Grinningfox said:


> What did Gai teach Neji and Tenten?


How to be a fuckin legend first off. Second, He simply trained them. He didn't have much to train them. 



Grinningfox said:


> What did Asuma teach his team?


This one you cant be serious on. Asuma is by far the best sensei there is in the whole show. He taght them everything outside of their clan jutsu. They trained all the time.



Grinningfox said:


> These guys have zero obligation to pass on a bunch of technique (if any) to thier squad. They lead Genin on missions and prepare them for the Chunin Exams. While doing this they may stumble onto a Genin that has potential, or reminds them of themselves, or whatever and they decide to invest in that SPECIFIC student. Jiraiya found Minato, Kakashi Sasuke, Gai found Lee etc . Again These guys are under zero obligation to evenly distribute thier time and energy , nor are they expected to .


 What does passing on techniques have to do with teaching them stuff? You could just teach the basics and still be a good teacher. Gai isnt a good teacher because he taught lee gates. He is a good teacher because he devoted extra time to train lee while still training ten ten and neji.

Kakashi is literally the only person to outright reject his students. Saying he is a good sensei then saying he doesnt have to take care of his students equally tells me you don't even have a proper value structure in place to even discuss this. He is a good sensei because when his student begged to be trained by him he said, nah, im gonna train your potential opponent in the second round. Here is some guy to replace me tho, ciao!?

There is a VAST and CLEAR difference between special treatment and neglect. Gai gives special treatment, Kakashi neglected naruto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Jan 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> please, tell us more.
> what is Sakura going to do against those TBBs?


whats the point tho? Its not like it was naruto in danger here.. 
Worst case the masters die.. So what?
To be serious tho she deals with these quite easily. She leaps in front of the masters and punches the ground causing the biju to loose balance and shoot upwards instead while they also get ragdolled in the process



> or this one?


same as above. Only she does it while byakugo boosted this time, and the upset of the balance of the bomb formation likely causes it to explode prematurely in the face of the bijus




> it wouldn't have killed him.
> he would have been simply stabbed just like Sakura was stabbed...
> That's all there is about it...


it definately would've. Ignoring that sakura was stabbed through the spine, the chakra in tsbs turns victims to dust upon contact and nullify ninjutsu.
Black rods are far inferior and even touching them was ill advised due to the nature of chakra they pass




> what do you mean "without using full power"?


she did damage ro kaguya without releasing byakugo no?



> But anyway, the Juubi is more tanky than humans.
> it's the same way how Obito was effected by SM Naruto's Rasengan, but the Juubi did not care about all the attacks the SA's did
> including SM Naruto's FRS...


Nah. Kaguya is actually the juubi and then some. I remember the juubi was shrieking from amaterasu while she remained unphased by it.
Damaging kaguya is certainly more impressive than damaging the bijus tail especially considering sakura did it without her strongest punch





> good for her. Except she was already ahead of the arms


she wasn't



> and she needed Kakashi to save her.


doesn't concern the point or affect the feat 
Thats like saying a person reacting and running from sth travelling at light speed is not impressive just because they had to be saved eventually..
Which intentionally ignores that "reacting" and "running from" said light speed is impressive in and of itself and require high levels of speed


> reacting to something that comes from far away is not all that impressive if at all...


Except when that "something" involved is moving at obscene speeds.
A hundred meter gap wouldn't stop A4 from clearing the distance instantly and blitzing someone like iruka.
The chakra arms fast enough to almost blitz naruto in the air would make most characters look like they are standing still and clear whatever distance there was instantaneously. 
Not to mention sakura didn't start moving early as depicted in the above scan and still completely moved out from its range when the arm was already pretty close 



> not sure what you are referring 2...


The feat that pradyumnar tried and failed to debunk





> She won't die, but Han's physical power is stronger than hers.
> So, since even a direct hit from him couldn't do much to Naruto (KCM)
> chances are, even IF Sakura were to be lucky enough to land a hit, she ain't doing jack-shit to Naruto.


good joke. Wait you are joking right
Cuz if not you're kindly going to have to explain how han is physically stronger than sakura.. And why sakura won't be able to do jack shit to naruto despite hurting kaguya while not at 100%






> sure.
> 
> 
> silliness at it's finest tho.
> ...


Eh?
I'm pretty sure it was the rocks madara was pressed again that were making that sound. We're literally seeing the susano all well and good.
And dc/physical prowess doesn't put one over the other.
Sm naruto might still be physically stronger than even rikudo sasuke as i don't see him tossing a giant rhino like naruto but that would still not make him stronger now would it?
Sasuke has genjutsu in his favour. Where naruto had to battle 5 bijus physically, sasuke could have just as easily tamed them with genjutsu.





> I am assuming you mean "Kabuto"?
> 
> - But Oro never faced SM Jiraiya, from where you got that it was enough to match Jman and his SM?
> the sannin were separated after the 2nd war and whatnot. They did not know Oro has ET, Oro did not know Tsunade has her Healing jutsu, and they did not know Jman has SM...


i'm pretty sure the databook literally stated that jiraiya matched orochimaru. Sm was not excluded from that.. 




> indeed.
> now, base Kabuto was only around Kakashi's level.
> where Jman is stronger than that. Hence, SM Jman & SM Kabuto relation shouldn't make all that much difference.
> 
> ...


 This isn't p1 kabuto tho. Oro had all of orochimaru's powers. And then mastered snake sm which put him over oro who is jiraiya's stated equal


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## Grinningfox (Jan 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> We don't really know, But Shino is a G, Kiba is doing good. and....hinata is...still a chuunin... so kurenai sucks.
> 
> 
> He taught them the important lesson of, "I am the god of teleportation and I will never use it once to save you guys." Other than that it seems he taught obito pretty well as he was a loser but still a pretty strong shinobi.
> ...



Let’s track the timeline 

Kakashi takes them on as a squad 

They go to LoWs

They come back and start the Chunin Exams

Kakashi drops Naruto off with Ebisu for training ( whether you agree or disagree with the choice he provides a means for Naruto grow ) to hone his basic skills( which were sorely lacking). Ebisu gets replaced by Jiraiya who outright tells Kakashi that he’s keeping Naruto . 

There wasn’t some huge gap of time for Kakashi to “neglect” Naruto like everyone makes it out to be . 

Also 

Sasuke was trained by Kakashi because Kakashi saw potential in him AND to keep him off of a dark path and away from Orochimaru’s influence. Sasuke NEEDED special attention  at that juncture, Naruto needed to hone his chakra control. To make it seem like Naruto was just getting ignored all the time is untrue.


And again Jounin don’t have to pass on anything of import if they don’t choose to. If they do it’s for reasons I stated in my earlier post


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## kokodeshide (Jan 15, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Let’s track the timeline
> 
> Kakashi takes them on as a squad
> 
> ...


 well, off panel stuff in between but yeah.



Grinningfox said:


> Kakashi drops Naruto off with Ebisu for training ( whether you agree or disagree with the choice he provides a means for Naruto grow ) to hone his basic skills( which were sorely lacking). Ebisu gets replaced by Jiraiya who outright tells Kakashi that he’s keeping Naruto .
> 
> There wasn’t some huge gap of time for Kakashi to “neglect” Naruto like everyone makes it out to be .


 Basic skills he is supposed to be honing. sensei implies teacher. they dont call them senpai. like chuunin do to they squad leader. we saw many instances of training sessions. among jonins and their students. kakashi is the only one to isolate his favorite AND not help his others.



Grinningfox said:


> Also
> 
> Sasuke was trained by Kakashi because Kakashi saw potential in him AND to keep him off of a dark path and away from Orochimaru’s influence. Sasuke NEEDED special attention at that juncture, Naruto needed to hone his chakra control. To make it seem like Naruto was just getting ignored all the time is untrue.


 The funniest thing about that is, Orochimaru literally says to kabuto a few chapters before that what they need to do is separate naruto from sasuke asap. That is the key to bringing out the dark in sasuke. Kakashi did just that. and naruto needed help with the basics, basics that kakashi should have been helping him with from the start.



Grinningfox said:


> And again Jounin don’t have to pass on anything of import if they don’t choose to. If they do it’s for reasons I stated in my earlier post


Passing on something is not the same as teaching them how to be ninja. If naruto was having issues after that long its on kakashi. Jiraiya sorted that shit out in less than a month. and he is a shit teacher.

The best course of action would have been to train them simultaneously since that spurs each other on. How foolish is it to assume a Jonin never trains his genin?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Lol. Please just take youe "L" and leave please.
> You compared somoene holdin a shield and running into a bullet with it to sakura reacting to kaguya and throwing dat punch after kaguya had begun moving.
> Which is more comparable to wonder woman blocking bullets with her bracelets.
> Your pitiful downplay attempt backfired


Lmao no... 
The only thing I'll be taking back is your epic fail to even realize the meaning of an interception and try to give feats to Sakura by straight up changing definitions. Even your own WW bracelet example is not a feat of interception if both are moving at each other in one straight path. Your pitiful attempt at giving feats to Sakura by warping definitions is as pitiful as p1 Sakura hersekfm. Get back to me when you really know what 'interception' means.


Speedyamell said:


> oh please do tell how & why tsbs would affect kcm naruto differently


Wait what...... 
My bad. I thought this was Naruto during Sakura getting stabbed. 
KCM Nardo can only counter TSB if he uses NE.


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## Skaddix (Jan 15, 2019)

Sannin are so fucking overrated.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> To be serious tho she deals with these quite easily. She leaps in front of the masters and punches the ground causing the biju to loose balance and shoot upwards instead while they also get ragdolled in the process



Holy shit..... We are too far gone into the Sage Light path aren't we now. 


Speedyamell said:


> same as above. Only she does it while byakugo boosted this time, and the upset of the balance of the bomb formation likely causes it to explode prematurely in the face of the bijus



What the actual fuck... You must be Trolling right?? 


Speedyamell said:


> it definately would've. Ignoring that sakura was stabbed through the spine, the chakra in tsbs turns victims to dust upon contact and nullify ninjutsu.
> Black rods are far inferior and even touching them was ill advised due to the nature of chakra they pass


If it was to turn stuff to dust and it didn't turn Sakura into dust ( which it should if it was TSB,) then I don't see why would it would affect anyone else the same way it affects Sakura here. 


Speedyamell said:


> doesn't concern the point or affect the feat
> Thats like saying a person reacting and running from sth travelling at light speed is not impressive just because they had to be saved eventually..
> Which intentionally ignores that "reacting" and "running from" said light speed is impressive in and of itself and require high levels of speed


If said light speed object would catch up if the outside help didn't arrive then no, it is not a feat to give credit to.  
But we'll have to make a concession for Sakura. She has nothing else right??? 


Speedyamell said:


> A hundred meter gap wouldn't stop A4 from clearing the distance instantly and blitzing someone like iruka.


And Iruka running from the blitz before eventually getting blitzed is not a feat to be proud of. Same as Sakura running from the inevitable chakra arm. 


Speedyamell said:


> The feat that pradyumnar tried and failed to debunk


More like the feat you falsely attribute based on your lack of knowledge of terminology. 

We are officially too far gone with this Sakura worship.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

BTW, when I was 4, I legit punched a big ass dog that charged at me, does that make me fast enough to 'Intercept' a big ass dog on all fours when I was 4??  The dog almost got me though and my little ass had to be saved but I Atleast reacted... So I must be able to move as fast as a 4 legged animal at age 4 right ???


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 15, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Sannin are so fucking overrated.


You wait... 
You Just wait.


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## Turrin (Jan 15, 2019)

That Naruto and Sasuke are highly overrated in all of their forms except for Hebi, FRS, KN4 which are highly underrated. 

Hebi despite being Sasuke Sannin power up equivalent is treated as far beneath SM Naruto when in reality he’s only slightly weaker. 

FRS Naruto is stated to be equal to or better then Kakashi yet he is constantly placed bellow Kakashi and loosing to Shinobi Kakashi is constantled stated able to beat. 

KN4 Narut is constantly compared to other V2 Jin in power like the Edo Jin Obito used despite them not showing anywhere near his power; even Killer-Bs V2 form showed nowhere near the raw power of KN4 or the ability to use Tailed Beast Bomb. Like wise it’s often ignore that Kyuubi (50%) is as powerful as 5 Bijuu combined yet KN4 is compared to other V2 4-Tails Jin. 

——-

MS Sasuke and Sage Naruto are highly overstimated with people placing them well above Orochimaru and Jiraiya; despite only at best being slightly stronger. Additionally many place them on par with Healthy Itachi and even Minato when they are nowhere near that strong

BM Naruto is places way above Minato and even sometimes on par with Hashirama; when he’s nowhere near that strong even with BSM. S06P Naruto is said to be beyond Juubi despite this simply not being true; not even Juubito


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## Skaddix (Jan 15, 2019)

What is FRS Naruto?


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## kokodeshide (Jan 15, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> BTW, when I was 4, I legit punched a big ass dog that charged at me, does that make me fast enough to 'Intercept' a big ass dog on all fours when I was 4??  The dog almost got me though and my little ass had to be saved but I Atleast reacted... So I must be able to move as fast as a 4 legged animal at age 4 right ???


Bro, that must mean that as a child you were Large dog level+. Using careful calculations, at 8 you must have been at least medium wolf level. And by 16 you were clearly cheetah level+. good shit.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 15, 2019)

*-Living Nagato was only comparable to people like Hokage 2-4, Prime Hanzo, MS Obito, and SM Kabuto while alive.*

Nagato can’t beat the Gokage and loses with trivial difficulty to the Founders. Before he was crippled, he considered Hanzo and his forces  a tough enough group of adversaries that he didn’t beat them until Hanzo was a shell of his previous self and he lost to Pein. Nagato isn’t an authentic Rinnegan user and trying to use its full power depletes him, making him hesitant to use Deva Path’s real power and the Gedo Mazo. 

His fight with Naruto, Bee, and Itachi came under very favorable circumstances (Naruto splitting his chakra and not using summons or clones, Bee not using BM and allowing Nagato to absorb chakra, Itachi starting the fight on Nagato’s side). When Nagato was crippled by Hanzo, he was inexperienced and not as skilled as he was when older, while he was crippled by the time he was a highly skilled Kage level fighter.
*


-Tailed Beasts 1-3 are only Entry Kage level.*

Comparable to the weakest Kage in history based on their performances against Gamabunta, Rasa, Hidan/Kakuzu, and Deidara. 50% Kn4 is a level above them given his superior performances.


*
-Killer Bee is only about as strong as people like SM Jiraiya, SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, and sick Itachi. *

He ran from Sasuke almost immediately after the MS was used, needed Ei’s help to stalemate Minato, was going to be easily defeated by Nagato, didn’t win his country any wars (while KCM Naruto and Minato did), and he couldn’t perceive KCM Naruto’s movements. The only time Bee out performed KCM Naruto was when it was noted that Naruto was too tired to fight and had people like 3T Kakashi and 6G Gai outperforming him.



*-A3 is weaker than Mu or Gengetsu outside of the Amber Purifying Pot. *

During the WA, Mu was only defeated by the combined effort of Onoki, a KCM clone, and Gaara who were operating with full knowledge, and half of Mu managed to escape. Gengetsu only lost to Gaara, exhausted Onoki, and waves of fodder while he was cooperating with them, and still would have won if not for Gaara acquiring some of his fathers Gold Sand by chance. A3 lost to a KCM clone and fodder when armed with knowledge. We also have A3 getting wounded by fodder and stalled by it effectively, while fodder made zero difference against Mu and Gengetsu.
*


-Kin and Gin are both High Kage.*

The Databook says that they are stronger than the Gokage with their mastery of their tools. They beat Tobirama twice in the past, once beating him and the 2nd Raikage, and then later killing Tobirama with their squad. We saw that when Kin got serious, he wiped out a huge chunk of Darui’s division and required a second division to stop him by using his own tool that he lost in the past. These divisions had ~16,000 Ninja each before the war, so Kin likely took out thousands of fodder, and if he didn’t lose the Amber Purifying Pot in the past him and Gin would have killed Darui, Kitsuchi, Ino-Shika-Cho, and 10,000+ fodder.


*
-Jiraiya surpasses Tsunade and Orochimaru in individual combat because they focused on utility and situational techniques.*

Maybe not as controversial as some others (maybe even the consensus), but Orochimaru learned powers like Edo Tensei and Fuschi Tensei while also creating all kind of scientific research, while Tsunade learned and created support abilities strong enough to win a war, while also making major innovations in medicine/medical Ninjutsu and Ninja tactics. Jiraiya meanwhile focuses on building himself. Consequently, Jiraiya posed a serious threat to beat Itachi while Orochimaru didn’t, and Jiraiya posed a serious threat to Pein while Tsunade had to rely on Naruto.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Bro, that must mean that as a child you were Large dog level+. Using careful calculations, at 8 you must have been at least medium wolf level. And by 16 you were clearly cheetah level+. good shit.


To be honest, the dog did not notice me untill I almost hit it. He was just charging in the general direction of me, and I punched him just as he saw me. Does that take off points???

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Jan 16, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> To be honest, the dog did not notice me untill I almost hit it. He was just charging in the general direction of me, and I punched him just as he saw me. Does that take off points???


Hmmmmm, since the dog was moving at speed but wasn't focused on you it is still a good feat. If I tweak the numbers to take into the account of the speed of a dogs synapse firing at earths regular gravity, taking into account the length of the average dogs brain, you can assume that even if he wasn't paying full attention to you, it's likely only a difference of 2.37 percent. When you put that through the equation, instead of cheetah level, you end up being jaquar on meth level. Still pretty good. probably like High tier overall.


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## Djomla (Jan 16, 2019)

Omote said:


> I was minato's ghost I'd slap the fuck out of him



Because Minato taught his team so much?


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

Djomla said:


> Because Minato taught his team so much?


he has Obito & Rin at Chunin level
and Kakashi at Jonin level.



Kakashi was actually present and the teacher for the main team.
The rest are off-panel / dead. How can you compare the 2? :V


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## Djomla (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he has Obito & Rin at Chunin level
> and Kakashi at Jonin level.
> 
> 
> ...



Why shouldn't I compare them? He is their teacher. Yet not a single one of them learned any of Minato's jutsus, bar Rasengan which I'm pretty sure Kakashi figured out on his own. They can be kages for all I care. That doesn't mean they don't get to learn. He is still their teacher. And taught, well, that friendship is important. 

And teacher actually teaching their students are a rare thing in Naruto. What techs of Kurenai and Asuma do their team members use? Not a single one. What exactly has Hiruzen taught Sannins when their stronghold are jutsus Hiruzen can't use. What exactly has Gai taught Neji? And so on and so on. Kakashi isn't THAT bad.

Then much like what Kakashi did with Sasuke, Madara did with Obito, Tsunade did with Sakura, Oro did with Sasuke, Gai did with Lee.. . It's only natural to concentrate your strengths on students who can learn them. And teach the basics to other. 

What could Kakashi teach Naruto? To do Rasengan? He said that is a dangerous thing to learn and he probably thought that it is impossible for him to learn it. What else? Summoning dogs? Their are not that dependable of a summon to begin with? Teach him Nature Releases? Genjutsu? He sucked at them and had no vsisible talent? 

What could Sakura learn? She sucks at everything bar the Tsunade tech which Kakashi doesn't know. 

Same thing with Minato. You have Rasengan, FTG, sealings and what not. You have a literal genius in your team and yet you teach him none of those. And then you are somehow a better teacher. Sure.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

Djomla said:


> Why shouldn't I compare them? He is their teacher. Yet not a single one of them learned any of Minato's jutsus,


How do you know that? 
and teaching them does not have to be in Ninjutsu specifically either. We have seen him teaching them some lessons in Taijutsu
and weapons and whatnot.... 









> They can be kages for all I care. That doesn't mean they don't get to learn


This is just straight up dumb. 

So, you think they will manage to be Kages without learning anything at all?


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## King1 (Jan 16, 2019)

How is minato a better teacher than kakashi when he didn't teach his student any jutsu while at least kakashi taught sasuke is primary tech. 

Kakashi might be a trash sensei but minato is worse than him


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

King1 said:


> How is minato a better teacher than kakashi when he didn't teach his student any jutsu while at least kakashi taught sasuke is primary tech.


Kakashi has Rasengan, no?  
Obito used the same thing Minato used to transfer Kurama as well

Rin has always been dead, it's not like we know what she has...


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## King1 (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Kakashi has Rasengan, no?


And what prove do you have that it was minato that taught him the rasengan? It can also be kakashi learnt it on his own by seeing minato do it like how bolt learnt kage bushin 


Hussain said:


> Obito used the same thing Minato used to transfer Kurama as well


Which obito are you talking about? Kid obito pre meeting madara never used any of minato techs and the obito that controlled kurama or whatever is the obito that was trained and taught many jutsu by madara not minato


Hussain said:


> Rin has always been dead, it's not like we know what she has...


It's not like she was alive and well before they went for that mission and we never once saw minato teach her or implied he taught her anything likewise kakashi and obito.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Hmmmmm, since the dog was moving at speed but wasn't focused on you it is still a good feat. If I tweak the numbers to take into the account of the speed of a dogs synapse firing at earths regular gravity, taking into account the length of the average dogs brain, you can assume that even if he wasn't paying full attention to you, it's likely only a difference of 2.37 percent. When you put that through the equation, instead of cheetah level, you end up being jaquar on meth level. Still pretty good. probably like High tier overall.


What if I said the dog was preoccupied with 2 dog catchers coming at it from both sides.... And ran into me and I punched it. Will that put me like mid tier obese jaguar level.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

King1 said:


> And what prove do you have that it was minato that taught him the rasengan? It can also be kakashi learnt it on his own by seeing minato do it like how bolt learnt kage bushin


Do you have a proof that Kakashi taught himself?

you sound desperate to me... 

> Minato his teacher
> Minato's jutsu
> no, Kakashi taught himself. 


Rasengan is of a higher level that Shadow clones. 
Bolt, who is more talented than Kakashi, did learn the shadow clones, but he did not teach himself the Rasengan now did he? 



King1 said:


> Which obito are you talking about? Kid obito pre meeting madara never used any of minato techs and the obito that controlled kurama or whatever is the obito that was trained and taught many jutsu by madara not minato



> Minato used a sealing jutsu to transfer Kurama from himself to Zetsu/Obito
> Obito used the same thing to transfer Kurama from himself to Naruto
> Must have been Asspulldara who did not even show this jutsu
> 



King1 said:


> It's not like she was alive and well before they went for that mission and we never once saw minato teach her or implied he taught her anything likewise kakashi and obito.


Obviously, you wouldn't see Minato do that since they are not the main team
and besides Kakashi Gaiden (which was in the middle of the war and focus on the kids), it's not like Kishi took the time
to give them flashbacks or anything to show this aspect. 

meanwhile, that's not the case with Kakashi and his team... 
they were not in the middle of the war, nor were they "off-panel" team. They have all the time they needed. 


by this logic, then Sakura might have taught herself as well. Since we haven't seen Tsunade physically teach her
Oro did not teach Sasuke anything either, Sasuke might have taught himself everything as well...  

and so on...


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## King1 (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Do you have a proof that Kakashi taught himself?
> 
> you sound desperate to me...
> 
> ...


Not desperate, the way you phrased your post gave me the impression that you believe what you typed as fact or true hence why I asked for proof so you can back up your statement but instead of backing it up with proof you jumped ship and asked me for proof whilst knowing that we are both assuming and speculating and we both have no way of proofing our stance with scans 


Hussain said:


> Rasengan is of a higher level that Shadow clones.


Nope they are both A rank jutsu


Hussain said:


> > Minato used a sealing jutsu to transfer Kurama from himself to Zetsu/Obito
> > Obito used the same thing to transfer Kurama from himself to Naruto
> > Must have been Asspulldara who did not even show this jutsu


Moot point, this obito you are referring to is adult Obito not kid obito who is the subject of the discussion and Adult Obito was taught everything he by madara on how to extract the kyubi etc


Hussain said:


> Obviously, you wouldn't see Minato do that since they are not the main team
> and besides Kakashi Gaiden (which was in the middle of the war and focus on the kids), it's not like Kishi took the time
> to give them flashbacks or anything to show this aspect.


So you have no proof he taught her just as I have no proof he didn't right? Then moot point. Don't present what you are saying as fact as true when you are just speculating or assuming


Hussain said:


> Oro did not teach Sasuke anything either, Sasuke might have taught himself everything as well...


Yes he could have, oro is not a lightning style user so he did not teach sasuke how to change the shape of his chidori etc


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 16, 2019)

King1 said:


> Not desperate, the way you phrased your post gave me the impression that you believe what you typed as fact or true hence why I asked for proof so you can back up your statement but instead of backing it up with proof you jumped ship and asked me for proof whilst knowing that we are both assuming and speculating and we both have no way of proofing our stance with scans


There are 2 possibilities. He either learned it directly from Minato or he  told him the mechanics behind it and Kakashi did the rest in his own. But the probability of Minato teaching him are just a tab bit higher even though both are speculative. 


King1 said:


> Yes he could have, oro is not a lightning style user so he did not teach sasuke how to change the shape of his chidori etc


Oro probably didn't directly teach him Raiton manipulation, but Oro could have possibly taught him how to extend his arsenal via some of his own techs by teaching him manipulation and maybe Sasuke applied them to his Raiton.


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## kokodeshide (Jan 16, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> What if I said the dog was preoccupied with 2 dog catchers coming at it from both sides.... And ran into me and I punched it. Will that put me like mid tier obese jaguar level.


Ha, you are crazy! It's common knowledge that the dogcatcher multiplier increases a dogs speed and durability by a factor of 2. It also forces a temporary Barkingan to appear in the dogs eyes allowing it to predict movements of potential snacks and incoming rough pets. Since you were 4 you qualify as a snack. Therefore this dramatically increases your power. To intercept this Dogcatcher enhanced Dog, who was using a Barkingan you'd have been An obese Jaquar at 4! at 16 you'd be like a race car with a cheetah pelt taped to the top and fire streaks painted on the side. therefore really fast. Dont even get me started on what you'd be like at 32. If i did the math right, and i always do, It's possible you could even reach the Dragon Wearing Hulk Hands tier. Or at the very least the Octopus Wielding 8 Lightsabers tier. Trust the math, these are facts.


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## Punished Kiba (Jan 16, 2019)

- At the time, Kiba would've beaten Naruto without the 'plot armour' fart AND if he had help from Kurama. (though, Naruto did still alredy have some of Kurama's help during the fight, the healing factor)

- Same for Neji.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ishmael (Jan 16, 2019)

Sakura is an uchiha breeder.


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## King1 (Jan 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Sakura is an uchiha breeder.


That's not an unpopular opinion tho

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2019)

Kakashi is the most naturally talented character of our time.
He just doesn't have lewd genetics like the Uchiha's/Uzumaki's.


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## Kannon (Jan 16, 2019)

I think Sakura is underrated imo. There are two things that most people don't consider, the first being that she was low on chakra throughout most of Part 2 due to having to store her chakra to form the Yin Seal in the War Arc. The chakra to form her Yin Seal couldn't have appeared from nowhere, after all. Most of her lackluster feats in Part 2 can thus be explained. The second is that Sakura's punch on Kaguya which broke off her horn can be scaled to 8 Gated Gai's Sekizo, which cracked Juubi Jin Madara's horn. As Kaguya> Juubi Jin Madara.

Besides, if people (or Hyuga faps lol) can accept things like Byakugan Hamura= Non-Jin Hagoromo based on nothing but portrayal, I don't see why War Arc Sakura can't be = KCM Naruto & EMS Sasuke too. Lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2019)

--Early EMS sasuke was holding back ,  he is a tier ahead of living Itachi 

--Naruto after receiving kuramas co-op is in a different league compared to when he does not be it in his base or SM

--Edo Itachi / EMS sasuke could have individually killed kasto if they were going for the kill 

-- Most of the Kage level fights ends with a side loosing and the victor being crippled by some sort (special exceptions would be special characters minato   hashiarama 

--Sakura is still the shittiest character in Naruto.  Those adults stuffs won't rectify that 

--Hebi sasuke can beat all of mid tier akaatuki members 

--Matchups don't matter when sb is a def portrayed above a character.  Author would write  for the superior portrayed character to win 

-- Naruto has great battle IQ and observation. In fact his tactics being beyond normal genius means most of his attacks are not going to be predicted.


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## Ishmael (Jan 16, 2019)

King1 said:


> That's not an unpopular opinion tho



Oops


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi is the most naturally talented character of our time.


Boruto shits on him. U_U


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Boruto shits on him. U_U



Boruto doesn't count. Son of gods (who were given free powerups) don't count


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Boruto doesn't count. Son of gods (who were given free powerups) don't count


what does his talent have to do with his father's power? 
heck, his first Rasengan was the tiniest Rasengan in the show... Kappa


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> what does his talent have to do with his father's power?
> heck, his first Rasengan was the tiniest Rasengan in the show... Kappa



Look at the Otsutsuki (or whatever it's spelled). Naruto is god of his world, it's natural that his sons will be born quite powerful. Even if his Rasengan was so tiny.

Also, if he were more talented, he'd main Suiton or Mokuton, not that boring Raiton everybody uses


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 16, 2019)

Oh another unpopular opinion. Sakura fans have feelings too just because you don't like the character doesn't mean make their forum lives shit. That is all XD


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Oh another unpopular opinion. Sakura fans have feelings too just because you don't like the character doesn't mean make their forum lives shit. That is all XD



Sakura had the bad luck to be the main character Kishi used to portray his Sasuke fetish. 

I don't hate Sakura, I hate how Kishimoto went through incoherent levels with her love for the emo avenger.


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## Ishmael (Jan 16, 2019)

Sakuralover is fine, cool, it's speedy that I have an issue with, he's in a tier with sage light in terms of "WTF did I just read".


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Oh another unpopular opinion. Sakura fans have feelings too just because you don't like the character doesn't mean make their forum lives shit. That is all XD


Despite all things said you come as the friendliest poster in the forum and everyone loves you


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Boruto shits on him. U_U


i don't watch boruto, but boruto is naruto's son. mad genes mate.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi is the most naturally talented character of our time.
> He just doesn't have lewd genetics like the Uchiha's/Uzumaki's.


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## MSAL (Jan 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi is the most naturally talented character of our time.
> He just doesn't have lewd genetics like the Uchiha's/Uzumaki's.




Wasn't it a Sharingan that made his name? 

The irony eh


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 16, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Sakura had the bad luck to be the main character Kishi used to portray his Sasuke fetish.


I completely agree.


LostSelf said:


> I don't hate Sakura, I hate how Kishimoto went through incoherent levels with her love for the emo avenger.


I also agree here. I guess most of their relationship developed off panel I mean we still had moments but because they weren't properly done they were mostly ignored. I'm hoping the Sasuke shinden novel adaptation gives a little more insight on their relationship.


Ishmael said:


> Sakuralover is fine, cool, it's speedy that I have an issue with, he's in a tier with sage light in terms of "WTF did I just read".


Speedy is what you would call a panelist. He (I think) usually uses what he sees on paper but his way of interpretations is different from regular posters. I don't disagree with everything he says just a few things here and there. The most difficult part of it all is defending Sakura. A lot of people underrate her and use part 1 as well as a bit of part 2 to discredit everything she does. I can explain this and why Speedy believes some of the things he does.


The_Conqueror said:


> Despite all things said you come as the friendliest poster in the forum and everyone loves you


I try . It gets hard sometimes but you never know the life of a person behind the screen. I just draw the line at being disrespectful that really makes me want to throw my phone, jump out the window, and scream in rage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Also, if he were more talented, he'd main Suiton or Mokuton, not that boring Raiton everybody uses


But he has Suiteon, Raiton and Futon... 


Mokuton is boring, lame, and unimaginative...


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> But he has Suiteon, Raiton and Futon...
> 
> 
> Mokuton is boring, lame, and unimaginative...



But you said he mostly uses Raiton, I guess. Why, when Suiton is more imaginative? 

Also Mokuton is awesome. It's the iconic Uchiha slapper.


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Wasn't it a Sharingan that made his name?
> 
> The irony eh



He made the Sharingan's name.

Using something that isn't part of his genetic makeup better than most the Uchiha clan.

In fact, in the final battle, he outperformed the strongest Uchiha in Sasuke.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> But you said he mostly uses Raiton, I guess. Why, when Suiton is more imaginative?
> 
> Also Mokuton is awesome. It's the iconic Uchiha slapper.


- Yeah, lightning is his main element. 

Water-style is not deadly or effective in doing damage tho... 
I guess its main usage is to defend against fire-type moves (that doesn't do much anyway). 

but he uses it to increase his AoE with his lightning tho...


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2019)

@BlinkST


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## Gianfi (Jan 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi is the most naturally talented character of our time.
> He just doesn't have lewd genetics like the Uchiha's/Uzumaki's.


What about Gai?


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> - Yeah, lightning is his main element.
> 
> Water-style is not deadly or effective in doing damage tho...
> I guess its main usage is to defend against fire-type moves (that doesn't do much anyway).
> ...



Meh, Kishi just don't want to be imaginative.

He should steal Bloodbending from Avatar and let's see how all the other elements compare


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> What about Gai?



Gai is talented, but taking hard work to the extreme was his thing.

Not saying that Kakashi didn't work hard, but he was more naturally talented across the board as evidenced by the manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Meh, Kishi just don't want to be imaginative.
> 
> He should steal Bloodbending from Avatar and let's see how all the other elements compare


thankfully he is not the author anymore..


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi is the most naturally talented character of our time.
> He just doesn't have lewd genetics like the Uchiha's/Uzumaki's.


Kakashi's up there but I'm not so sure. We don't really see it much but chakra manipulation and application seems to be a thing. 

For example Mizu village managed to steal the secrets of Hiraishin somehow and the best they were able to reverse engineer it was 3 Jonin needing to join hands and concentrate to send 1 person somewhere.

That's pretty crazy. You could potentially have academy dedicated for learning Hiraishin/Edo Tensei/SM/other complex high end jutsu and most people Jonin kage etc will be flat out unable to learn those techniques or apply them in a usable manner due to sheer difficulty. Chakra manipulation is kinda like force mastery in that sense. 

That all being said Guy / Minato / Kabuto are probably the  most talented shinobi who are given nothing / no kekkai genkai and are capable of absurd feats anyway. Kakashi has cheaters eye.


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> Kakashi's up there but I'm not so sure. We don't really see it much but chakra manipulation and application seems to be a thing.
> 
> For example Mizu village managed to steal the secrets of Hiraishin somehow and the best they were able to reverse engineer it was 3 Jonin needing to join hands and concentrate to send 1 person somewhere.
> 
> ...



Refer to my previous posts about what kakashi did with the Sharingan despite it not being part of his genetic makeup. Even before acquiring the Sharingan he was leaps and bounds ahead of his peers.

Minato is definitely a good shout though.
Gai's main thing was hard work as implied  by White Fang


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## Grinningfox (Jan 16, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> Kakashi's up there but I'm not so sure. We don't really see it much but chakra manipulation and application seems to be a thing.
> 
> For example Mizu village managed to steal the secrets of Hiraishin somehow and the best they were able to reverse engineer it was 3 Jonin needing to join hands and concentrate to send 1 person somewhere.
> 
> ...


I think you’re talking about the Hokage’s guard . Which only reinforces your point because those three had a direct  connection and STILL couldn’t do it


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## MSAL (Jan 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> He made the Sharingan's name.



Of course he did. Screw Madara and those generations that came before XD



> Using something that isn't part of his genetic makeup better than most the Uchiha clan.



He used it ok, but he still had limitations. Same as Danzou XD



> In fact, in the final battle, he outperformed the strongest Uchiha in Sasuke.



The final battle, other than Gai, was mostly asspull anyway XD


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## Crow (Jan 16, 2019)

Naruto, since he gotten Sage Mode, has always been stronger than Sasuke
Minato is a solid High Kage and he's not that far away from Hashirama. 
Suigetsu is an Elite Jonin level ninja. I would say he's Low Kage near a water source.
Gaara could've taken out Sasori, but Deidara although weaker, was a bad matchup for him seeing that he also had to protect his village against his bombs. 
Prime Hiruzen was likely stronger than Tobirama
Hokage Kakashi is the weakest Hokage and he's one of the weakest Kage we've seen. 
MS Kakashi could've killed MS Sasuke
MS Sasuke is overrated. He almost died to each of the Gokage besides Danzo.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Shazam (Jan 16, 2019)

Crow said:


> Hokage Kakashi is the weakest Hokage and he's one of the weakest Kage we've seen.



Was with you for most part until the Hokage Kakashi portion which most people have a difficult time accurately placing.

What evidence are you using about Hokage Kakashi that makes you place him so low? Or are you simply just subtracting sharingan from War Arc Kakashi and calling it the same thing?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 16, 2019)

Its extremely sad that the first thing I do when I see a post is scan for Sakura's name before I read it...


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## Ishmael (Jan 16, 2019)

Crow said:


> Minato is a solid High Kage and he's not that far away from Hashirama.



Most don't view him on that scale because lack of firepower, his character is mostly built around speed but that fighting style is one that's difficult for a lot to deal with. 

he's high kage for me but hashirama and others are associated with the gateway to God tier, that's a tier I cannot see Minato being in.


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## Ishmael (Jan 16, 2019)

imo Minato is the gateway to high kage if you were to enter he's one of the first you see. He's like the standard high kage.


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## Speedyamell (Jan 16, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> Lmao no...
> The only thing I'll be taking back is your epic fail to even realize the meaning of an interception and try to give feats to Sakura by straight up changing definitions. Even your own WW bracelet example is not a feat of interception if both are moving at each other in one straight path. Your pitiful attempt at giving feats to Sakura by warping definitions is as pitiful as p1 Sakura hersekfm. Get back to me when you really know what 'interception' means.


dude
Concession is a sign of strength.. Not weakness. Just concede..

You literally tried to downplay said feat by comparing it to holding a shield and running into a bullet with it. Which is just downright a terrible comparison for the following reasons:
1. Somebody blocking a bullet with a shield already infront of their body is not the same as somebody reacting the bullet after its been fired and then moving the shield in front of them to block

The latter is what is involved in sakura's case and is why i brought up wonder woman in the first place
Wonder woman doesn't just move her bracelets in front of her and hope it blocks a bullet, She perceives the speeding bullets and then moves her bracelets accordingly to the position of the bullet to block it.. And no one in their right minds would attempt to say that was unimpressive, irrespective of whatever mental gymnastics you're trying to play in regards to interception feats.. the conclusion is that because of that she(ww) is a bullet timer.
And is is literally the same mechanics govern what sakura did.
Only here, sakura is wonder woman, and kaguya is the speeding bullet.

-the bullet is fired(kaguya starts to move)
-sakura reacts/perceives her, launches herself toward kaguya as you can see with the sft "tap" there(which actually makes the feat more impressive as she's launching herself in the direction f the bullet(kaguya)), she then punches her.

All the things wondy has to do to block bullets sakura did.
-Perceiving the speeding object,
-reacting accordingly and moving a body part to stop the approaching object.

And if you read the post i brought this feat up, it was in reply to hussain listing kcm naruto's speed feats. Ofcourse this doesn't guarantee she can move nearly as fast, it portrays that she can perceive/react to such characters without issue and attack fast enough to tag them if they approach her


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## Speedyamell (Jan 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Tru.


Please don't hate me


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## Ishmael (Jan 16, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Please don't hate me



Lmao all love this way bro


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2019)

Crow said:


> Hokage Kakashi is the weakest Hokage and he's one of the weakest Kage we've seen.



This is a very popular opinion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 16, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> dude
> Concession is a sign of strength.. Not weakness. Just concede..
> 
> You literally tried to downplay said feat by comparing it to holding a shield and running into a bullet with it. Which is just downright a terrible comparison for the following reasons:
> ...


Lmao... We have come to this??? Begging to concede??? 
No matter how much you beg, I am not conceding nor agreeing with the truck load of shit you post worshipping sakura. 
Why the fuck is wonderwoman here??? Just because I said person with a shield you just assume it's someone superhuman???? 
You don't even know the meaning of an Interception and still use the term for things that are not interceptions.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> This is a very popular opinion.


writing this must have been very painful for you


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## Kisame (Jan 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Water-style is not deadly or effective in doing damage tho...
> I guess its main usage is to defend against fire-type moves (that doesn't do much anyway).


Except Kisame's sharks.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 16, 2019)

Water style specializes in blunt force damage


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## Skaddix (Jan 16, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Water style specializes in blunt force damage



That explains why its worthless. Characters can tank way too much blunt force damage. Raiton and Fuuton with their cutting and piercing do way better. Though granted probably doesn't help we only ever saw two Suiton users of note in the whole damn manga in Tobirama and Kisame.


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## Ishmael (Jan 16, 2019)

There's deadly forms of water style out there like Kisame's shark style jutsus and I believe zabuza had some dangerous jutsu as well involving dragons.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 16, 2019)

I don't know if this is unpopular but Sakura has bijuu levels of chakra


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 16, 2019)

@wooly Eullerex I'm not usually a feat whore but when I am I'm usually correct.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 17, 2019)

Uchiha > (insert your favorite character)


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## Kai (Jan 17, 2019)

10T Obito can beat or is on the same level as Toneri.
Mifune is a mid Kage level.
Momoshiki fused is stronger than Hagoromo.


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## Mr Akatsuki (Jan 17, 2019)

I'll never recognize Taka as part of the Akatsuki. In fact: "_Technically, the members of Taka are not full members of Akatsuki, as they do not possess the rings worn by each of the full members."_

An opinion, not per se a fact: The Akatsuki arc was way more enjoyable than the Shinobi World War Arc. So much lost potential. The plot twists were plain stupid and made the villains of each stage a bit more insignificant. At least, that's how I felt.




Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi would’ve defeated Kabuto in direct combat with killing intent





What makes you think that?


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## Ishmael (Jan 17, 2019)

I take feats over anything else and then hype comes into play,  portrayal arguments are eh to me.

I hate when people try to use things like Sasuke was portrayed the same as madara and use their behavior and sht to draw the conclusion. I feel that just translates over to their character not what they'd do in battle, even then madara Imo was way more sane then Sasuke and smarter in his approaches.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> I take feats over anything else and then hype comes into play, portrayal arguments are eh to me.


what if feats are inconsistence / contradictory? 

what if feats are of a different nature, which one would you take? 

For example, let's say a character is offensive mainly, and the other character is defensive. 
How do you decide on those things...


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## Ishmael (Jan 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> what if feats are inconsistence / contradictory?



Then I'll acknowledge that, no need to pretend that the character with feats that fit that have consistently feats. But I'll still acknowledge it as a feat but let's say someone picks at my argument and points out that the feat is inconsistent, that's props to them and I'll concede to that. Still it wouldn't change that it's a feat just one that seems to be iffy.



Hussain said:


> what if feats are of a different nature, which one would you take?
> 
> For example, let's say a character is offensive mainly, and the other character is defensive.
> How do you decide on those things...



Mm let's see, the way I decide is by looking at the feats the defensive character has regarding their defense. Then I'll look at the offensive character and look at how they stack up, if the offensive character has high level feats but not against a defense similar to who they're matched against or on that level I starry taking account of others things.

Who was portrayed smarter? could the offensive character outsmart the defensive character, how good was the defensive character offense hyped to be? things like that come along and I simply look at them and determine my take on the fight.

If the defensive character has decent enough offensive feats to suggest he'd do damage to the offensive and the offensive has no way around his defense. That's my winner or who I'll argue for but they're some posters who would find a way for the offensive to win I'm sure.


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## Esano (Jan 18, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> Never happened.


It kinda did. What do you mean man? He was going to drop a fucking kirin.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 18, 2019)

Esano said:


> It kinda did. What do you mean man? He was going to drop a fucking kirin.


He didn't. And so it is inconclusive. And that's not soloing even remotely. 
Just because someone could have done  something doesn't mean it's a solo show. 
Yet people don't agree Jman ' soloing ' Akatsuki duo when he legit made them run. And I don't say it's a solo. I say both are similar and inconclusive of what could have happened.


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## Esano (Jan 18, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> He didn't. And so it is inconclusive. And that's not soloing even remotely.
> Just because someone could have done  something doesn't mean it's a solo show.
> Yet people don't agree Jman ' soloing ' Akatsuki duo when he legit made them run. And I don't say it's a solo. I say both are similar and inconclusive of what could have happened.


It still seems like plenty to put him above Naruto at least in that point in time. He was literally portrayed standing over them. Symbolism and all. 

Honestly the Jiraya thing  is odd. It's either a retcon, or I guess you could argue that Itachi didn't want to fight with Jiraya. I don't think you can shut out fights just by pointing out one inconsistency. I actually haven't read the Sasuke "fight" in a while tbh, maybe I should go back and read it for specific moments rather than trying to use the fight in general.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jan 18, 2019)

Esano said:


> It still seems like plenty to put him above Naruto at least in that point in time. He was literally portrayed standing over them. Symbolism and all.


It's only because Naruto has hard nipples for him. KN4 Naruto is no joke even for BOS Sasuke. He blitzed Orochimaru and almost ripped his face off. Him standing over them in a distance could also mean even though they finally got him, he still is that far away from returning. 


Esano said:


> Honestly the Jiraya thing is odd. It's either a retcon, or I guess you could argue that Itachi didn't want to fight with Jiraya. I don't think you can shut out fights just by pointing out one inconsistency. I actually haven't read the Sasuke "fight" in a while tbh, maybe I should go back and read it for specific moments rather than trying to use the fight in general.


I know. But both basically have the same level of  inconclusive elements to it. Sasuke was about to use Kirin but would he have pulled it off successfully??? Would it be as strong without its storm clouds??? Would he be forced to react in another way by Sai and Yamato??? 
All I'm saying is just because he was about to use a cool jutsu and got stopped doesn't mean he would have won and inturn solo'd the team there.


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## Esano (Jan 18, 2019)

PradyumnaR said:


> It's only because Naruto has hard nipples for him. KN4 Naruto is no joke even for BOS Sasuke. He blitzed Orochimaru and almost ripped his face off. Him standing over them in a distance could also mean even though they finally got him, he still is that far away from returning.



Yeah I guess I wasn't thinking about Kyuubi powers. 



> I know. But both basically have the same level of  inconclusive elements to it. Sasuke was about to use Kirin but would he have pulled it off successfully??? Would it be as strong without its storm clouds??? Would he be forced to react in another way by Sai and Yamato???
> All I'm saying is just because he was about to use a cool jutsu and got stopped doesn't mean he would have won and inturn solo'd the team there.



I guess it's just headcanon but I assume Kirin would be about as strong or at least a very strong jutsu. I think he basically used the clouds only because he was out of Chakra. I am not saying he definitely would have taken out everyone easily, just that I think he would have beaten Naruto, though if he went into V4 I guess that would be a different story. Though Oro was convinced Sasuke could take 1 tails and I think 3 tails.


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## Stonaem (Jan 19, 2019)

1. The following characters can beat Minato in a impure foot race:
- Ei(4) *RnY
- Ay(3) *RnY
- Yugito Ni *chakra mixing
- Jins *V2
- Mifune *PURE
- Hanzo *PURE
- Sages
- Gates' Users
- Hozuki. *Muscle Morphing

2. The following would not get shunshin blitzed by Minnato:
- Tsunade *instincts
- Hidan *PURE (this is a linear word on the qwerty)
- Oro *PURE
- Kakuzu *PURE
- Mu *PURE
- Notable Uchiha *Sharingan tracking
- Base 'kaku bro's *Genes
- Mei *PURE
- Pein *PURE
- Kimimaro *Genes
- Haku *CIM
- Puppeteers *Style
- Magneteers *Style
- V1 Jins
- Notable Swordsters *Instincts

3. Minato is almost as hard to kill as Oro


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