# Konoha 11 vs. Sasuke



## Louis-954 (Mar 26, 2013)

*Battlefield:* Konoha
*
Distance:* 20 meters, Sasuke surrounded from all directions to start.

*Knowledge:* Basic, they know only what they have personally seen or have heard via word of mouth.

Konoha 11 have been gifted Kyuubi Chakra by Naruto and Kurama.

*Konoha 11:*
Sai
Sakura
Ino
Shikamaru
Chouji
Kiba/Akamaru
Hinata
Shino
Lee
Neji
Tenten(equipped with Bashosen)


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## Stermor (Mar 26, 2013)

Louis-954 said:


> *Battlefield:* Konoha
> *
> Distance:* 20 meters, Sasuke surrounded from all directions to start.
> 
> ...



boosted lee just kicked madara in half..


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## Louis-954 (Mar 26, 2013)

> boosted lee just kicked madara in half..


Boosted Lee who who was launched forward by a boosted Gai's leg into a Madara who was attached to the juubi from two connections who didn't try to dodge or block with SusanoO. Yeah.


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## RBL (Mar 26, 2013)

konoha 11 stomps, they are all with kyuubi chakra? sasuke got any chanse , he looses.


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## -JT- (Mar 26, 2013)

Kyubi Ino solos.

Her technique is faster than BM Naruto and held Obito for who knows how long after she received the buff from Naruto. Plus, with the Kyubi shroud, she could probably happily stab Sasuke while she's in his body, as the shroud would protect and heal her own body.


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## Bonly (Mar 26, 2013)

Damn -JT- beat me to it. K11 easily win this. Sasuke has no knowledge on Ino's jutsu and with having Kurama's chakra, he jutsu was said to be faster then Bijuu Mode Naruto so Sasuke stands no chance. After that Choji can finish the job with this.


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## Krippy (Mar 26, 2013)

Sasuke throws up Full Susanoo and his Enton Blade cuts through the K11 like wet tissue paper


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## Stermor (Mar 26, 2013)

Louis-954 said:


> Boosted Lee who who was launched forward by a boosted Gai's leg into a Madara who was attached to the juubi from two connections who didn't try to dodge or block with SusanoO. Yeah.



he had limited dogding ability's sure.. but even the raikage didn't manage to hit madara like that.. sasuke stands no chance.. 

neji+hinata can pretty much fling susanoo + sasuke away with a hakke kushuo.. 

ino can hit sasuke faster then sasuke can detect.. 

shikemaru can hold him easily now.. 

enz..


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## tanman (Mar 26, 2013)

They all attack at one time. Amaterasu kills a few. Susanoo gets wrecked. 
Sasuke likely gets horribly wounded and ultimately killed.


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## ueharakk (Mar 26, 2013)

Stermor said:


> boosted lee just kicked madara in half..



...yet only moved as fast as a FRS.  

Which leaves us with two possibilities:

1)  Madara could have moved out of the way or summoned susanoo if he was not attached to the juubi considering he has no problems reacting to FRS speed earlier.

2) While in BM, Naruto throws FRS so quickly that Madara can't even react to the speed of the attack.


I personally side with option 1.

As for the thread though, Sasuke is essentially fighting 11 borderline Kage-level opponents one of which makes his defenses irrelevant (ino) and others who'd give his susanoo hell (shikamaru's shadow bind), and then we have powerhouses that could possibly bust his susanoo (lee/chouji), and people who can cancel his instant K.O moves like amaterasu and arrows (hinata/neiji).   Lets not forget that Tenten can probably use kakuzu-level elemental blasts and a strong fuuton from her plus shino's bugs would completely blind Sasuke like the alliance did to Madara and Obito.  

  I'd give this to the Konoha 11.


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## Naiad (Mar 26, 2013)

Ppl pretty much said it! Konoha11 with pretty much ease! Ino shintenshins him and Chouji oder lee take him out!!


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## -JT- (Mar 26, 2013)

Naiad said:


> Ppl pretty much said it! Konoha11 with pretty much ease! Ino shintenshins him and Chouji *oder *lee take him out!!



A bit of your Deutsch slipping in there Naiad


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## Stermor (Mar 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> ...yet only moved as fast as a FRS.
> 
> Which leaves us with two possibilities:
> 
> ...



uhm isn't it kinda well known that naruto in faster forms can throw faster frses?? he can move faster he can throw faster.. frs is faster..  i thought that was kinda commen knowlegde?? 

so i really don't think basing it on the speed of frs is a good way to go.. if anything base it on bm naruto's speed.. since he is pretty much keeping pase..


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## ueharakk (Mar 26, 2013)

Stermor said:


> uhm isn't it kinda well known that naruto in faster forms can throw faster frses?? he can move faster he can throw faster.. frs is faster..  i thought that was kinda commen knowlegde??


um.... how is that common knowledge?  Are there other examples that would show that him throwing FRS in those forms is faster than in SM?  

Because if anything SM Naruto has the greatest throwing strength feats out of all of his human modes.



Stermor said:


> so i really don't think basing it on the speed of frs is a good way to go.. if anything base it on bm naruto's speed.. since he is pretty much keeping pase..


....so are you saying lee is as fast as BM Naruto?


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## Ersa (Mar 27, 2013)

Kyuubi Cloak Konoha 11 could probably take KCM Naruto...


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## Stermor (Mar 27, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> um.... how is that common knowledge?  Are there other examples that would show that him throwing FRS in those forms is faster than in SM?
> 
> Because if anything SM Naruto has the greatest throwing strength feats out of all of his human modes.
> 
> ...



isn't the abilty to run much faster then sm naruto can throw enough?? 
with beeing able to throw faster then you can run pretty much always the case... 
seem to me pretty much basic knowlegde.. 

i'm saying lee can keep up with bm naruto.. altough it is unlikely bm naruto went all out.. but still quite a good feat..


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 27, 2013)

Hmmm FRS did go as fast as Lee... guess Lee is not as fast as I thought he was.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh let's play.

Panel shows thirteen Zetsu's on fire.

Two greater than the Konoha 11.

Now the last time I check......

Enton has no trouble burning through cloaks.

You know the Konoha 11 is fucked, if Ino is arbitrated to be their best chance.


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## PopoTime (Mar 27, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh let's play.
> 
> Panel shows thirteen Zetsu's on fire.
> 
> ...



Or Hinata uses Kyuubi powered Hakke Kusho and sends Sasuke flying?


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## Sarry (Mar 27, 2013)

Tough fight, but Sasuke wins. Just barely.


Susanno + Enton Arrows+ Enton sword = deadly combination. K11 have to show they can dodge the arrows, or negate Amaterasu/Enton.
The most threatening k11 is Ino with her ability to control Sasuke, so it all depends on who disables who first.


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## PopoTime (Mar 27, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Tough fight, but Sasuke wins. Just barely.
> 
> 
> Susanno + Enton Arrows+ Enton sword = deadly combination. K11 have to show they can dodge the arrows, or negate Amaterasu/Enton.
> The most threatening k11 is Ino with her ability to control Sasuke, so it all depends on who disables who first.



Arrows + Enton could be countered by:

Hinata's Hakke kushou, Tentens Banshosen or by Ino using Shintenshin to make Sasuke miss.


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## Sarry (Mar 27, 2013)

PopoTime said:


> Arrows + Enton could be countered by:
> 
> Hinata's Hakke kushou, Tentens Banshosen or by Ino using Shintenshin to make Sasuke miss.



1) Can tenten even use Banshosen properly?
2) Kushou isn't confirmed that it can counter the arrows. at best it can deflect them by a bit, like Danzou's tree. even then, it is likely that Sasuke can place an enton on the arrows, and that will harm Hinata. 
3) i mentioned Ino's abilities earlier.


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## Negrito (Mar 27, 2013)

Sarry said:


> 1) Can tenten even use Banshosen properly?



What do you mean by properly? The Fan just uses a lot of chakra, now she would be able to use it more and not die from chakra exhaustion.



> 2) Kushou isn't confirmed that it can counter the arrows. at best it can deflect them by a bit, like Danzou's tree. even then, it is likely that Sasuke can place an enton on the arrows, and that will harm Hinata.



Why wouldn't Kushou work/counter the arrows? Kushou has shown to be able to repel/knock back one of Jiuubi's tail-hands, what so special about the arrows that would make it any different if hit by Kushou?


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## PopoTime (Mar 27, 2013)

Sarry said:


> 1) Can tenten even use Banshosen properly?
> 2) Kushou isn't confirmed that it can counter the arrows. at best it can deflect them by a bit, like Danzou's tree. even then, it is likely that Sasuke can place an enton on the arrows, and that will harm Hinata.
> 3) i mentioned Ino's abilities earlier.



1. She showed sufficient mastery over it to take out 2 of Kakuzu's masks, the kyuubi shroud amplifies her own chakra to the point of excess (As shown when Choji's body automatically converted the excess chakra to calories) so Tenten can use the fan much more effectively than before

2. Hinata's Kushou destroyed some of the spikes from Obito's Juubi powered _Mokuton: Sashiki no jutsu_ and a Kyuubi powered Kusho knocked back a Juubi hand. (Middle left panel)



Also note that Kusho was so powerful, it caused the Juubi hand to crash into the Mountain behind the Juubi itself, which is friggin impressive considering to took Hiashi to use the more powerful two handed version just to stop the Hand


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## Burke (Mar 27, 2013)

the root of tenten's bansho fan troubles comes from her poor chakra reserve
the kyuubi cloak would provide more than enough for extended use

@savior doesnt matter, someone being dead does not keep them out of the battledome
thats like going to a sage jiraiya v orochimaru thread and complaining that jiraiya is already dead :v


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## ueharakk (Mar 27, 2013)

Sarry said:


> 2) Kushou isn't confirmed that it can counter the arrows. at best it can deflect them by a bit, like Danzou's tree. even then, it is likely that Sasuke can place an enton on the arrows, and that will harm Hinata.



like others have said, being able to repel the juubi's tail is more than enough power to repel an arrow.


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## ueharakk (Mar 27, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh let's play.
> 
> Panel shows thirteen Zetsu's on fire.
> 
> ...



Okay lets play again.  

This Panel  shows thirteen zetsu's on fire.

That's 9 greater than the 4 hokages.

You know the 4 hokages are f****d.

So by your logic, current sasuke can solo the 4 hokages.  No scratch that, he can solo the 4 hokages and 9 other kages/shinobi regardless of their individual abilities.



Stermor said:


> isn't the abilty to run much faster then sm naruto can throw enough??
> with beeing able to throw faster then you can run pretty much always the case...
> seem to me pretty much basic knowlegde..


I don't know man, going by this logic, neither sandaime raikage nor the fodder alliance and temari should have been able to perceive KCM Naruto's FRS.  

If his attack traveled even faster than his movement speed which is already the greatest in the manga, I would at least expect some kind of speed comment.



Stermor said:


> i'm saying lee can keep up with bm naruto.. altough it is unlikely bm naruto went all out.. but still quite a good feat..


Yeah, like again, I'd like some kind of speed comment before putting lee above even Ei or Sandaime raikage's level speed.  A comment about either lee or naruto's FRS speed.  In addition to this, when lee kicked madara he didn't have the "!?" reactions above his head which is the usual for a blitz.


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## Sarry (Mar 27, 2013)

PopoTime said:


> 1. She showed sufficient mastery over it to take out 2 of Kakuzu's masks, the kyuubi shroud amplifies her own chakra to the point of excess (As shown when Choji's body automatically converted the excess chakra to calories) so Tenten can use the fan much more effectively than before
> 
> 2. Hinata's Kushou destroyed some of the spikes from Obito's Juubi powered _Mokuton: Sashiki no jutsu_ and a Kyuubi powered Kusho knocked back a Juubi hand. (Middle left panel)
> 
> ...





Negrito said:


> What do you mean by properly? The Fan just uses a lot of chakra, now she would be able to use it more and not die from chakra exhaustion.
> 
> 
> 
> Why wouldn't Kushou work/counter the arrows? Kushou has shown to be able to repel/knock back one of Jiuubi's tail-hands, what so special about the arrows that would make it any different if hit by Kushou?


1) how long will it last? can Tenten use it on the spot, or will she miss? Has she had training with it? 
That's what i mean! that fan isn't just a physical object, it results in an elemental jutsu.

As for the kakuzu masks, if you look closely, it was asuma's wind jutsu that took out those masks, not Tenten. 

Just because tenten held the fan doesn't mean she knows how to use it properly.

2) Fair enough, hinata seems to pack some strength. But this still doesn't do anything against those enton missiles. it takes just one to smoother hinata in flames, and Sasuke can launch multiple ones in each strike.


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## PopoTime (Mar 27, 2013)

> how long will it last? can Tenten use it on the spot, or will she miss? Has she had training with it?
> That's what i mean! that fan isn't just a physical object, it results in an elemental jutsu.



The Bashosen is basically a swing and fire weapon, the only requirement for repeated usage is a high enough chakra reserve



> 2) Fair enough, hinata seems to pack some strength. But this still doesn't do anything against those enton missiles. it takes just one to smoother hinata in flames, and Sasuke can launch multiple ones in each strike.



Well actually, Itachi's Amaterasu had to burn through Sasuke's Katon before even getting close to him, the same would apply for Sasuke's Enton here.

His Enton would have to burn through the air wave formed by Hakke Kushou, and judging by the sheer force just one of them creates, Hinata could deflect many enton missiles at once


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 27, 2013)

Well i say that if ino connects then the konoha nins chances increases to nearly 100%. With sasuke's anger powering him he could force her out of his head by fluctuating his susanoo(chakra) to insane levels of intensity like he did to break danzo's seal. I dare say that sasuke's chakra>kinkaku's 6 tail shroud in terms of quality which can prove too powerful for her. Then again she could control obito who is powerful as fuck in his own right mentally(when it comes to battle) and chakra wise.

If she cannot hold sasuke then sasuke will go to town with enton leaving the K11 pretty fucked unless the hyuuga's defense can stand up to it. I would prefer rotation rather than air palm because fire>wind and the they might make the speeding flame arrow stronger instead of deflecting it(if they can even react to the arrows in the first place). Rotation seems the way to go since it is a more solid defense and has no chance of feeding the flames.

The others like kiba, choji, sakura and lee are gonna be stalled by enton and susanoo defense(even if broken he can take them out with enton counters) and susanoo can be reformed. Shino's bugs eating the susanoo chakra to make a opening could be good but sasuke will not stand there and he could put a enton circle around himself stop the bugs(since he knows shino moves). Sharigan genjutsu (paralyzing and confusion) can also work on any targets who slip up abit giving sasuke openings.

All in all sasuke's fighting style is good for wiping out squads but if ino can give them a solid enough opening then they could overwhelm sasuke...but i doubt it happening. I am leaning towards sasuke more times than not. K11 got a chance though.


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## Negrito (Mar 27, 2013)

Sarry said:


> 1) how long will it last? can Tenten use it on the spot, or will she miss? Has she had training with it?
> That's what i mean! that fan isn't just a physical object, it results in an elemental jutsu.
> 
> As for the kakuzu masks, if you look closely, it was asuma's wind jutsu that took out those masks, not Tenten.
> ...



First: Why would Tenten be laying down on the floor almost dying because of chakra exhaustion? While being told not to touch the Fan? Also that other shinobi isn't dropping dead just by holding it.

Second: The Fan's attack aren't linear in a forward manner.

You placing two different panels together doesn't make your assertion right.


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## MidvalleySensei (Mar 28, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh let's play.
> 
> Panel shows thirteen Zetsu's on fire.
> 
> ...


Except here is Shikamaru reacting to and countering one of those mass-produced Zetsu from a shorter range. That plus almost all of the Konoha 11 taking out massive amounts of said Zetsus during the war, Sakura outright fodderizing one. And that _before_ the gigantic boost that Kyuubi chakra gives.


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## Stermor (Mar 28, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't know man, going by this logic, neither sandaime raikage nor the fodder alliance and temari should have been able to perceive KCM Naruto's FRS.
> 
> If his attack traveled even faster than his movement speed which is already the greatest in the manga, I would at least expect some kind of speed comment.
> 
> ...



uhm sandaime is kinda fast on its own?? that why he could dogde?? also kcm is not all that much faster then sm naruto.. considering sm naruto still has superior reactions.. 

and i can percieve jet fighters in the air.. temari and stuff can see a frs from a distance.. 

isn't it kinda stupid to expect? we already know its fast? and really it is pretty much always the case something thrown is faster then if you literly walk it to somebody.. just because the writer didn't state it doesn't really mean frs is slow.. 

i really don't understand you want comments to show you lee is fast?? again we know he is fast(hole character is based on it).. and he was keeping pase with bm naruto (who was very likely not going all out) and he managed to kick madara.. i'm not saying he is faster then bm naruto.. i'm saying he can compete with sandaime raikage/E.. which is pretty accurate considering madara did not just backhand him away..


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## Oronade (Mar 28, 2013)

I'd say the k11(10) zero difficulties! 
If Ino invades Sasuke,the match is practically over! she can give all of the k11 an opening for an attack,and release a short time before the damage is taken by sasukes body! hertiming in hitting and also releasing with her jutsu has gotten perfect!

and with only manga knowledge Ino wont be the first one who is targeted by Sasuke! its probaply lee i think because Sasuke knows he is a big match up in taijutsu!
so that gives the win to k10!


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## Synn (Mar 28, 2013)

*Kyuubi Ino is enough to end this.*

Ino can easily cover a 20 meters distance before Sasuke can even react.

K11 take this 10/10.


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## -JT- (Mar 28, 2013)

I just want to add that base Neji was able to hold back a Juubi tail/arm with his Rotation.

Kyubi Neji could therefore easily protect the entire K11 from Sasuke's attacks if he was somehow able to get the jump on them and move first, allowing the likes of Ino to use her jutsu without fear of her body being hurt in the process.

Of course, the match probably doesn't even last this long, what with Kyubi Shintenshin being faster than BM Naruto.

As I mentioned in my first post, Ino solos.


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## ueharakk (Mar 28, 2013)

Stermor said:


> uhm sandaime is kinda fast on its own?? that why he could dogde??


but according to you the throwing speed must be at least as fast as their movement speed, and we already know Sandaime raikage can't dodge Ei's punch since you have to be faster than Ei in order to do so.  So FRS>/= KCM Naruto > V2 Ei's punch and thus he shouldn't have been able to dodge it the first time.



Stermor said:


> also kcm is not all that much faster then sm naruto.. considering sm naruto still has superior reactions..


Reactions =/= raw movement speed.  V1 Ei/ Sandaime raikage are much faster than SM NAruto or taka sasuke, but they are able to counterblitz because of their sensing/precog, not because they are anywhere close to the formers speed.  

It's the same reason that KN0 naruto was blitzing 2 tomoe sharingan sasuke at VoTe, yet once Sasuke got the 3 tomoe, he was the one doing the blitzing despite neither of their speeds changing.



Stermor said:


> and i can percieve jet fighters in the air.. temari and stuff can see a frs from a distance..


jet fighters are not only huge, but you view them from miles away.  On the other hand neither tsunade nor bee can perceive flash shunshin despite watching from a distance.

However, i can see your point.



Stermor said:


> isn't it kinda stupid to expect? we already know its fast? and really it is pretty much always the case something thrown is faster then if you literly walk it to somebody.. just because the writer didn't state it doesn't really mean frs is slow..


but when an attack/person is exceptionally fast the writer does go out of his way to make it known.  Example would be sasuke's susanoo arrows or Ei.  If Naruto's attack is indeed as fast as his BM speed and top tier FVs like Madara can't even react to it, that puts it far above the arrows speed, and thus I think it does warrant a speed comment.



Stermor said:


> i really don't understand you want comments to show you lee is fast?? again we know he is fast(hole character is based on it).. and he was keeping pase with bm naruto (who was very likely not going all out) and he managed to kick madara.. i'm not saying he is faster then bm naruto.. i'm saying he can compete with sandaime raikage/E.. which is pretty accurate considering madara did not just backhand him away..


I agree that IMO he can compete with sandaime raikage/Ei in speed, but that still doesn't give him the speed to outright blitz Madara before he can even react.  Madara could put up a physical guard against Ei while being distracted by Mei.  Sasuke was able to both react to and put up enton against Ei before the later could blitz him from behind. So lee would have to be much faster than Ei in order to pull off a frontal blitz.

anyway that's just the way I see things.  I know my argument does not disprove yours at this point it's more like an alternative, but I think we both layed it out on the table.


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## Stermor (Mar 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> but according to you the throwing speed must be at least as fast as their movement speed, and we already know Sandaime raikage can't dodge Ei's punch since you have to be faster than Ei in order to do so.  So FRS>/= KCM Naruto > V2 Ei's punch and thus he shouldn't have been able to dodge it the first time.



why can't the sandaime dogde a punch if he can see it comming?? sandaime cleary noticed the first frs.. and just dogded.. which is not hard if you only have slighty less speed.. then he got nuked by the redirection he didn't saw coming and couldn't dogde.. 

you asume here that the sandaime is much slower then EI.. while in reailty there is only a minor gap.. just like between the sandaime, naruto and EI..



ueharakk said:


> Reactions =/= raw movement speed.  V1 Ei/ Sandaime raikage are much faster than SM NAruto or taka sasuke, but they are able to counterblitz because of their sensing/precog, not because they are anywhere close to the formers speed.



first off all base naruto is as fast as taka sasuke.. sm naruto is signifcantly superior (reactions beeing superior to kcm naruto. then kcm is somewhat superior to sm naruto because of the kyuubi chakra boost.. V1 E is below sm naruto and the sandaime raikage.. then v2 is superior to both.. then kcm is superior to that.. but the hole deal from sm naruto to kcm naruto its all pretty close. all can react to eachother if given some distance.. 



ueharakk said:


> but when an attack/person is exceptionally fast the writer does go out of his way to make it known.  Example would be sasuke's susanoo arrows or Ei.  If Naruto's attack is indeed as fast as his BM speed and top tier FVs like Madara can't even react to it, that puts it far above the arrows speed, and thus I think it does warrant a speed comment.



this would only be the case if this was the first time we are seeing this speed.. after that he doesn't bother.. which is the case here.. also him destroying madara body does seems like a good indicator.. 



ueharakk said:


> I agree that IMO he can compete with sandaime raikage/Ei in speed, but that still doesn't give him the speed to outright blitz Madara before he can even react.  Madara could put up a physical guard against Ei while being distracted by Mei.  Sasuke was able to both react to and put up enton against Ei before the later could blitz him from behind. So lee would have to be much faster than Ei in order to pull off a frontal blitz.



madara probebly had no problems reacting.. he just couldn't prevent it in his situation.. your scenario makes it super impressive but unlikely that anyone can do that.. my situation is also impressive but not to the same scale..


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## ueharakk (Mar 29, 2013)

Stermor said:


> why can't the sandaime dogde a punch if he can see it comming?? sandaime cleary noticed the first frs.. and just dogded.. which is not hard if you only have slighty less speed.. then he got nuked by the redirection he didn't saw coming and couldn't dogde..
> 
> you asume here that the sandaime is much slower then EI.. while in reailty there is only a minor gap.. just like between the sandaime, naruto and EI..


Ei stated that there were only 2 people who were fast enough to dodge his max speed punch, that would be Minato and Naruto.  Sandaime was alive when Ei fought Minato (since Ei wasn't raikage yet) and thus his father could not dodge his punch.  Therefore the FRS must be slower than Ei if Sandaime could dodge it but not Ei.




Stermor said:


> *first off all base naruto is as fast as taka sasuke.. *sm naruto is signifcantly superior (reactions beeing superior to kcm naruto. then kcm is somewhat superior to sm naruto because of the kyuubi chakra boost.. V1 E is below sm naruto and the sandaime raikage.. then v2 is superior to both.. then kcm is superior to that.. but the whole deal from sm naruto to kcm naruto its all pretty close. all can react to eachother if given some distance..


I don't agree with the bolded, in their rasengan/chidori clash base naruto had noticeably lesser speed lines which equates to less speed.
From then, I don't really know how you get SM Naruto is faster than V1 Ei.  



Stermor said:


> *this would only be the case if this was the first time we are seeing this speed.. after that he doesn't bother.. *which is the case here.. also him destroying madara body does seems like a good indicator..


The bolded does not apply to the examples I've given.  The arrows have been consistently hyped for their speed (danzou, kakashi, kabuto) and Ei gets speed statements in every one of his 'battles' (Taka, KCM Naruto, Madara).  Naruto's speed has been hyped whenever he uses his fastest speed (kisame, Ei, neo pain).   And what you are saying is a FRS thrown by BM Naruto is faster than all of those examples, yet it garners no author's intent speed hype.



Stermor said:


> *madara probebly had no problems reacting.. he just couldn't prevent it in his situation..* your scenario makes it super impressive but unlikely that anyone can do that.. my situation is also impressive but not to the same scale..


The bolded is what I've been trying to argue for which is because he was attached to the juubi, he couldn't put up susanoo or get out of the way.  Thus since Sasuke isn't attached to the juubi, he would not get blitzed by speed that only rivals the raikages.


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## Stermor (Mar 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Ei stated that there were only 2 people who were fast enough to dodge his max speed punch, that would be Minato and Naruto.  Sandaime was alive when Ei fought Minato (since Ei wasn't raikage yet) and thus his father could not dodge his punch.  Therefore the FRS must be slower than Ei if Sandaime could dodge it but not Ei.



lol.. i could dogde ei.. if given enough time to prepare.. sandaime can do the same.. dodging E's punch depends on the circomstances.. which we don't know.. but you can't equate that to frs beeing slower because we don't know the circomstances which cleary make alot of difference..



ueharakk said:


> I don't agree with the bolded, in their rasengan/chidori clash base naruto had noticeably lesser speed lines which equates to less speed.
> From then, I don't really know how you get SM Naruto is faster than V1 Ei.



speedlines to prove sasuke is faster..... by feats both naruto and sasuke where similar in speed to kakashi(in the pain arc).. if anything naruto should be faster now(with kyuubi no longer working against naruto).. 

very easy.. the differnce between v1 and v2 is pretty big.. from sasuke beeing able to follow the movements.. to sasuke beeing completly unable to follow..  
naruto in base beeing just as capable of following v1 as sasuke.. how can sm not be superior which we know boosts speed.. then there is also the reaction speed which is superior to kcm(and the raikages).. 




ueharakk said:


> The bolded does not apply to the examples I've given.  The arrows have been consistently hyped for their speed (danzou, kakashi, kabuto) and Ei gets speed statements in every one of his 'battles' (Taka, KCM Naruto, Madara).  Naruto's speed has been hyped whenever he uses his fastest speed (kisame, Ei, neo pain).   And what you are saying is a FRS thrown by BM Naruto is faster than all of those examples, yet it garners no author's intent speed hype.



no i'm saying we as a reader know frs and lee are fast.. and that he doesn't really need to add indicators that it is.. also we saw naruto speed hyped with kisame.. but he was still learning control at the time.. he most certainly is faster in kcm and no really indicators there.. 



ueharakk said:


> The bolded is what I've been trying to argue for which is because he was attached to the juubi, he couldn't put up susanoo or get out of the way.  Thus since Sasuke isn't attached to the juubi, he would not get blitzed by speed that only rivals the raikages.



sasuke can't even see the speed of the raikages......


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## ueharakk (Mar 29, 2013)

Stermor said:


> lol.. i could dogde ei.. if given enough time to prepare.. sandaime can do the same.. dodging E's punch depends on the circomstances.. which we don't know.. but you can't equate that to frs beeing slower because we don't know the circomstances which cleary make alot of difference..


well Sandaime raikage dodged the FRS 2 times at pretty much point blank, so that's the kind of situation he'd have to be able to dodge Ei's punch in order for FRS to be faster.



Stermor said:


> speedlines to prove sasuke is faster..... by feats both naruto and sasuke where similar in speed to kakashi(in the pain arc).. if anything naruto should be faster now(with kyuubi no longer working against naruto)..


I don't know any speed feats that would put Kakashi's speed on Sasuke's level.  Deidara was getting nigh-blitzed by Sasuke until he went full long range while he was able to fend off the entire team Gai with just a kunai in his mouth. 



Stermor said:


> very easy.. the differnce between v1 and v2 is pretty big.. from sasuke beeing able to follow the movements.. to sasuke beeing completly unable to follow..


sasuke was somewhat able to follow Ei's movements in V2, he just couldn't turn his head quick enough which is why he looks in the same direction Ei shunshins in.  Also, it's much easier to track something that is moving directly at you rather than something moving perpendicular to your point of view (PoV) since from your PoV something moving right at you looks like its standing still, just growing bigger.  That's why it's hard for sasuke to track Ei when he shunshins latterally, yet he is able to put up enton when Ei tries to attack him from behind.




Stermor said:


> naruto in base beeing just as capable of following v1 as sasuke.. how can sm not be superior which we know boosts speed.. then there is also the reaction speed which is superior to kcm(and the raikages)..


Both can track V1 ei, however Naruto can't blitz V1 ei with his base reactions like what sasuke did, that requires SM reactions.




Stermor said:


> no i'm saying we as a reader know frs and lee are fast.. and that he doesn't really need to add indicators that it is..


sure they are fast, but they aren't as fast as the things that have been given speed hype like susanoo's arrow or the raikages which are things that are so fast that Kishi goes out of his way to hype them on multiple occasions.  Thus if Kishi doesn't even give them verbal hype, then they should not be faster than things that have been given author's intent hype on multiple occasions.



Stermor said:


> also we saw naruto speed hyped with kisame.. but he was still learning control at the time.. he most certainly is faster in kcm and no really indicators there..


....if his speed had noticeably improved since then, wouldn't kishi giving him hype after he flashed passed Ei be verbal author's intent indication of his increased speed?




Stermor said:


> sasuke can't even see the speed of the raikages......


sure he can especially when they come running straight into his face (like what ei did).  Now when Ei shunshin's latterally, that's when sasuke loses track of him.


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## Stermor (Mar 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well Sandaime raikage dodged the FRS 2 times at pretty much point blank, so that's the kind of situation he'd have to be able to dodge Ei's punch in order for FRS to be faster.





ueharakk said:


> again we don't now the circumstances.. minato dogded it while ei hand was a few centimeters from his face.. also not really since naruto nailed the sandiame easily when he didn't see frs coming..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Negrito (Mar 30, 2013)

I'm just going to give my thoughts on some of these comments.



ueharakk said:


> but according to you the throwing speed must be at least as fast as their movement speed, and we already know Sandaime raikage can't dodge Ei's punch since you have to be faster than Ei in order to do so.  So FRS>/= KCM Naruto > V2 Ei's punch and thus he shouldn't have been able to dodge it the first time.



This analysis would be correct if Naruto's KCM KB was moving at top speed or the speed used to evade Ei's fastest punch.



> Reactions =/= raw movement speed.  V1 Ei/ Sandaime raikage are much faster than SM NAruto or taka sasuke, but they are able to counterblitz because of their sensing/precog, not because they are anywhere close to the formers speed.
> 
> It's the same reason that KN0 naruto was blitzing 2 tomoe sharingan sasuke at VoTe, yet once Sasuke got the 3 tomoe, he was the one doing the blitzing despite neither of their speeds changing.



First neither Sasuke or Naruto blitzed their opponent. They reacted to them and where able to land an attack.



> Sasuke was able to both react to and put up enton against Ei before the later could blitz him from behind. So lee would have to be much faster than Ei in order to pull off a frontal blitz.



This is wrong. Sasuke covered his Rib cage Susanoo in Enton _because_ he couldn't keep track of Ei in an attempt to discourage Ei from attacking. Sasuke is able to distinct where the Raikage is after the Raikage had actually halted his movements for a second. 



ueharakk said:


> Ei stated that there were only 2 people who were fast enough to dodge his max speed punch, that would be Minato and Naruto.  Sandaime was alive when Ei fought Minato (since Ei wasn't raikage yet) and thus his father could not dodge his punch.  Therefore the FRS must be slower than Ei if Sandaime could dodge it but not Ei.



I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong, but your assertion is assuming Naruto's KCM KB was moving at top speed in his bout against Sandime Raikage. This goes against your own statement of Naruto being faster than Ei but Sandime being able to dodge F:RS, one Shunshin with F:RS should of been more then enough to land the attack.



> I don't agree with the bolded, in their rasengan/chidori clash base naruto had noticeably lesser speed lines which equates to less speed.
> From then, I don't really know how you get SM Naruto is faster than V1 Ei.



I'm sorry but I have never seen drawn "speed lines" as good measure of how fast a character is moving.



> I don't know any speed feats that would put Kakashi's speed on Sasuke's level.  Deidara was getting nigh-blitzed by Sasuke until he went full long range while he was able to fend off the entire team Gai with just a kunai in his mouth.



The only thing that may put Sasuke as faster than Kakashi is his Shunshin, other than that nothing Sasuke has shown is faster than Kakashi's showings. In defence of Team Gai, they had just finished fighting with themselves and where exhausted.



> sasuke was somewhat able to follow Ei's movements in V2, he just couldn't turn his head quick enough which is why he looks in the same direction Ei shunshins in.  Also, it's much easier to track something that is moving directly at you rather than something moving perpendicular to your point of view (PoV) since from your PoV something moving right at you looks like its standing still, just growing bigger.  That's why it's hard for sasuke to track Ei when he shunshins latterally, yet he is able to put up enton when Ei tries to attack him from behind.



Sasuke never kept up with Ei's speed. He had his head fully turned the other way. Above scan shows/proves this.



> Both can track V1 ei, however Naruto can't blitz V1 ei with his base reactions like what sasuke did, that requires SM reactions.



Sasuke never blized Ei. Take away Sasuke's Sharingan and he can't replicate his own feat. Sasuke's feat required the Sharingan.


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