# How the timeline Works out if Tobi is, in fact, Obito



## NarutoxKakashi (Aug 12, 2012)

As much as it pains me to write this, I think the writing is on the wall, after this latest chapter, that Tobi is, in fact, Obito. I heard many people say that it's impossible because of the timeline of events. I think the answer to that is very simple: Uchiha Madara was acting as Tobi, too. For example, the one controlling Yagura was probably Madara. Yet, how did Kisame see Tobi's face later and think it the same person? I believe Obito/Tobi is using "Zetsu goo" to change the appearance of his face to resemble Madara's. When Tobi showed his face to Sasuke, there were wrinkles under his eye in the exact same style as Uchiha Madara's. Obito wouldn't look that old unless he was doing something to change the appearance of his face.

I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point). However, at some point Madara died, and Obito is now the only one acting as Tobi.


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## MYJC (Aug 12, 2012)

Agreed. 

My guess is Madara (who was old by then) and Zetsu found Obito and saved him. And then took Obito on as his disciple. Eventually Madara dies, and Tobi/Obito takes over Akatsuki for him. 

The plan was that Tobi would eventually have Nagato revive Madara.


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## BatoKusanagi (Aug 12, 2012)

It doesn't work. Maybe there was some time travelling involved


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## αce (Aug 12, 2012)

Here's a hint: It doesn't.
I doubt that matters much to Kishi though.


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## jgalt7 (Aug 12, 2012)

minato fight?


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## SageEnergyMode (Aug 12, 2012)

I explained the timeline before in another thread.

Here it is. 






> Many people have speculated based on Kishi saying the Third Great Ninja War took place "more than 10 years ago," and because Kakashi is estimated to be 26-27 years old in part 1, and the Kyuubi attack happened basically 13 years before the events of part 1, that Kakashi had to have been 13-14 years old during the Kyuubi attack, which is more or less accurate. *However, where the flaw really comes in with some people, is that they assume the events that we saw from the Third Great Ninja War absolutely had to have taken place when Kakashi was 12-13.*
> 
> What do people seem to base this on? Obito died at 13, and they were on the same team, so Kakashi must have been the same exact age as Obito? I don't know about that one.
> 
> ...



In other words Obito, if he's tobi, was 17-18 when he fought the Fourth Hokage. Kakashi was 13-14 years old during the Kyuubi attack. We already know that people can look really young, and yet still appear tall enough to look like adults. Itachi is a fantastic example of this. Kakashi was 9 years old during the Kakashi Gaiden. He became a Chuunin at age 6, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that Kakashi was a super young Jonin as well.


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## machiavelli2009 (Aug 12, 2012)

How old was kakasi when tobi attacked konoha
Aren't they age mates
Kakashi wasn't 18 at the time
Tobi= obito works for me
The twist will be when tobi is actually tobi


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## Lindsay (Aug 12, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> I explained the timeline before in another thread.
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> ...




There is a flaw in your timeline. Tobi states that a 4 year old Itachi Uchiha observes mass slaughter in the Third Great Shinobi War. [Ch. 400; Pg. 4]

Given that Itachi was 17/18 in Part I we can give him a birthdate of 18/17 Years BSS (Before Series Start). If Itachi was 4 years old at the time of the Third Shinobi War then it must have taken place 13/14 Years BSS. Plus Kakashi is 26/27 during Part I.

27/26 Years BSS: Kakashi is born.
18/17 Years BSS: Itachi is born.
14/13 Years BSS: Itachi is 4 years old and the 3rd Shinobi war takes place. At this point Kakashi would be around 13 years of age during the War.


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## LostSelf (Aug 12, 2012)

Just look at the flashback of kid Itachi beating Oro. He looked exactly like in his last seen age. I don't think that Tobi being almost as tall as Minato matters.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 12, 2012)

The solution: Kishimoto gives only the vaguest of fucks about the timeline.


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## machiavelli2009 (Aug 12, 2012)

Agreed with above poster
It could end up being future sasuke just because
if its obito why on earth did his eye survive being crushed


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## Arya Stark (Aug 12, 2012)

Time traveling, duh.


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## bearzerger (Aug 12, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> I explained the timeline before in another thread.
> 
> Here it is.
> 
> ...



Kakashi, Obito and Rin were age mates. Or at the most there was a year between them. Obito and Rin graduated the academy the same year as Asuma, and Kurenai and they all became genin at the same age. This is rather easy to verify. Their ninja registration numbers. 
In Konoha all shinobi since the foundation of the academy are consecutively numbered. Asuma was no. 10829, Kurenai was no. 10881, Rin no. 10885, Obito no. 10886. They all graduated at age 9 the very same year. Meaning they are the same age.
Kakashi and Gai graduated the academy several years before that's why they both have significantly lower registration numbers.


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## Summers (Aug 12, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Kakashi, Obito and Rin were age mates. Or at the most there was a year between them. Obito and Rin graduated the academy the same year as Asuma, and Kurenai and they all became genin at the same age. This is rather easy to verify. Their ninja registration numbers.
> In Konoha all shinobi since the foundation of the academy are consecutively numbered. Asuma was no. 10829, Kurenai was no. 10881, Rin no. 10885, Obito no. 10886. They all graduated at age 9 the very same year. Meaning they are the same age.
> Kakashi and Gai graduated the academy several years before that's why they both have significantly lower registration numbers.



You sure know your stuff.

Also, Timeline doesn't work, Kishi would have to some super ridiculous nonsense to pull it off. Even if he doesn't give up, some basic amount of sense needs to be made of the manga to even work.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Aug 12, 2012)

It's not that serious guys. 

People trying to make sense of the timeline need to stop right in their tracks because honestly it doesn't work that way. Kishi doesn't give a damn about how accurate the timeline is, it's happened before and honestly neither should you. Only care about it when it's explained to us. This isn't the place for that. You mean to tell me Kishi organized exactly who Tobi is, Obito's involvement, exactly point in time where these situations happened, exact year and what not that far back? Even Kishi himself said he had the ending in mind and he's working his way up to that. Everything's not as organized as you might be lead to believe. 

The timeline doesn't matter here. Things change in this manga as it goes on and the accurate dates of the war, Kakashi and Obito's ages are one of them. Besides that there can be a loophole jutsu that'll come into effect that throws everything off in turn making it all make sense. 

It's that simple.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 12, 2012)

it doesnt work, as simple as that.


no mather how fucked the timeline is, kishi will have to explain us how madara and obito worked together


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## Talis (Aug 12, 2012)

Long haired masked man is the real Madara.


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## Summers (Aug 12, 2012)

It all makes sense if we ignore everything that doesn't make sense. Tobi=Obito full proof.


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## bearzerger (Aug 12, 2012)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> It's not that serious guys.
> 
> People trying to make sense of the timeline need to stop right in their tracks because honestly it doesn't work that way. Kishi doesn't give a damn about how accurate the timeline is, it's happened before and honestly neither should you. Only care about it when it's explained to us. This isn't the place for that. You mean to tell me Kishi organized exactly who Tobi is, Obito's involvement, exactly point in time where these situations happened, exact year and what not that far back? Even Kishi himself said he had the ending in mind and he's working his way up to that. Everything's not as organized as you might be lead to believe.
> 
> ...



I'd say that sort of argument is an insult to Kishi's professionalism. This isn't some dumb fanfic. This is supposed to be the work of a professional. And any professional would want to create a story which doesn't have such obvious contradictions. Sure, Kishi is only human and that means there will be errors, but not such glaringly obvious ones. The timeline doesn't have to be 100% but atleast 95% correct.


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## Raventhal (Aug 12, 2012)

My best guess not in exact order.

Madara loses to Hashirama many years ago but gets some of his wood juice.

Madara starts experiments with Senju DNA from what he learns on Uchiha tablet expectation but fails to make anything more than Zetsu maybe from a grass village ninja.

Madara does either experiments with close Senju relative by giving his old eyes or base Uchiha eyes to son of a Uzumaki, Nagato. Or does the unthinkable for a Uchiha and purposely sires a child with a Uzumaki woman.

Madara becomes the secret leader of Kirigakure at some point and the Bloody Mist based on Uchiha legacy to awaken MS.

Somewhere along the line Madara decided he wants to do the Moons Eye plan.

Nagato awakens his rinnegan but disappears in the war and thought dead.

Nagato is rediscovered after Yahiko starts or is beginning to organize Akatsuki. Rumors of a new or rediscovered doujutsu lets Madara know it's Nagato.

Madara at this point is older and can't travel to go see Nagato in a war torn country.

Madara has continued to work on obtaining his own rinnegan and is discovered and spied on by Oro.

Madara is given wounded body of Obito discovered by Zetsu. Possible that Obito's eye is special that it awakened MS instead of 3 tomes just like it skip having 1 tome and his ability to go intangible is what saved him which peaked Zetsu's interest. 

Madara begins his mind fucking of Obito and has Rin murdered by Kirigakure and negotiates with the Leaf making the Leaf look bad for lack of vengeance or tricks Obito kill Rin.

Obito buys into the Moons Eye plan to kill the ninja system and abandons the Hidden Leaf but lurks around to learn from Uchiha Tablet and spies on Kakashi. 

Madara awakens his rinnegan after years of experiments but is too old and makes a plan with Obito to influence Nagato to bring him back to life. He orders Obito to wear a mask and grow his hair out to take his place and taught about Madara's life.

Naruto's birthday comes around and Madara sends Obito to get the Kyuubi using his MS. 

Madara dies at some point after this.

Obito begins to manipulate Nagato using his intangibility to make them think he's all powerful Madara. He pushes the idea of the Moons Eye plan for peace which appeals to Nagato. He orders Nagato to start adding missing nin to Akatsuki.

Obito comes out to Kisame after seeing his power as Madara and begins to manipulate him to join Akatsuki.

Obito is discovered by Itachi and decides to help Itachi with is plan so he can obtain sharingans. Obito is afraid of Itachi's power and follows along with not attacking the Leaf.

Obito implants sharingan eye for Izanagi

Obito orders Nagato to start collecting tailed beast.

Obito starts production of Zetsu clones once beast start being captured and put into Gedo Mazo.

Obito decides to infiltrate Akatsuki as Tobi after death of members.

Obito sees power in Sasuke and wants to use him to remove Itachi since Itachi is bent on dying to Sasuke anyway.

Obito after Deidara fight pretends to be dead and begins to command directly Nagato.

Obito blocks Leaf ninja's from stopping Itachi's production and death.

Obito after Itachi's death Obito starts to come out as Madara. 

Obito shows Kisame his face again.

Obito influences Sasuke by telling him Itachi's story so he won't go back to the Leaf so he won't be an obstacle and to gain a strong ally. He sends him after Killer Bee and Nagato after Naruto.

Obito as Madara has set backs with Nagato and Sasuke's failures.  Abandons bringing Madara back since Nagato dies but views Sasuke as a replacement.

I guess the rest is known.


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## Saizo sarutobi (Aug 12, 2012)

Because Obito time traveled to the past.thats where he Met madara.
madara took care of him and trained him.brainwashed his brain about information about hashirama izuna rikudo and so on.when madara died,he entrusted Obito with the moon eye plan,and Obito was supposed to revive him with rinenngan.Obito IS the only Tobi


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## 8 (Aug 12, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> *I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga*, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point). However, at some point Madara died, and Obito is now the only one acting as Tobi.


sakura, hinata, ino? especially sakura. went from looking like a ghost, to neat long hair, and short again.


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## NarutoxKakashi (Aug 12, 2012)

8 said:


> sakura, hinata, ino? especially sakura. went from looking like a ghost, to neat long hair, and short again.



I apologize, you are correct sir/miss. Although, except for Sakura, people still have the same haircut, just styled in different ways (which you could add even more characters to that list). Sakura got her haircut for plot reasons. You never see someone go from extremely long hair to extremely short hair like Tobi did (except for Sakura). 

 In any event, I think it's a clue that there were *two* different people masquerading as Tobi.


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## Del Ruiz (Aug 12, 2012)

Age probably isn't very relevant to Tobi

He's partially Obito, but he's partially Zetsu also most likely, and grown from Hashirama and Madara's joint powers

If his body was primarily grown from Zetsu and imbedded with Hashirama/Madara's DNA to begin with, then he could be whatever age Madara wanted him to be. He's a Frankenstein's monster. He probably hasn't aged a day one way or the other since he was created either.

150% agree that long hair Tobi = Madara, and short hair Tobi = Tobi. Madara definitely had the role for awhile and traded off with Tobi at some point.


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## MYJC (Aug 12, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> My best guess not in exact order.
> 
> Madara loses to Hashirama many years ago but gets some of his wood juice.
> 
> ...



This timeline is awesome. 

The only change I would make is that I think Itachi met the real Madara shortly before he died. The long hair is a visual clue, as was the fact that Itachi (when talking to Sasuke) referred to Tobi as Tobi rather than Madara. 

I also think that Kisame met the original Madara. That said, he was in on Madara's plans and was aware that Obito was being groomed to take Madara's place. So when he discovered Tobi was Obito he thought it was humorous to refer to him as "Madara".


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## B.o.t.i (Aug 12, 2012)

the thing is we know for fact akatsuki was created by the orphans tobi madara are no where in sight in there backstory,

Kishi can just make shit up as usual and retcon that shit.


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## jacamo (Aug 12, 2012)




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## Res1990 (Aug 12, 2012)

the thing i cant understand is when did madara die
cause if he was working with tobi - obito does this mean that he was alive during the kyuubi attack?


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## Algol (Aug 12, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> As much as it pains me to write this, I think the writing is on the wall, after this latest chapter, that Tobi is, in fact, Obito. I heard many people say that it's impossible because of the timeline of events. I think the answer to that is very simple: Uchiha Madara was acting as Tobi, too. For example, the one controlling Yagura was probably Madara. Yet, how did Kisame see Tobi's face later and think it the same person? I believe Obito/Tobi is using "Zetsu goo" to change the appearance of his face to resemble Madara's. When Tobi showed his face to Sasuke, there were wrinkles under his eye in the exact same style as Uchiha Madara's. Obito wouldn't look that old unless he was doing something to change the appearance of his face.
> 
> I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point). However, at some point Madara died, and Obito is now the only one acting as Tobi.



i've thought this for a while, exactly my thoughts too. i'd rep if i could but i'm 24'ed

also, i think kishi writes whatever he wants, and can close up the gap fairly easily. he just needs to say something like "tobi/obito's dimension is a hyperbolic time-chamber warp thing" and that pretty much does it.


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## TH4N4T0S (Aug 12, 2012)

Here's a possible timeline. 
*
BN:* Before Naruto
*AN:* After Naruto
Comments in italics. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



*? BN*

-- Madara loses to Hashirama but obtains some Senjuu flesh/blood.

-- Madara experiments with his powers and Hashirama's flesh/blood.

-- Zetsu is formed as a byproduct of Madara's experiments.

(_Zetsu could be a former Hidden Grass ninja with whom Madara experimented, or a new creation made out of Hashirama's life-generating cells._)

*21* *BN *

-- After years of experimenting, Madara awakens the Rinnegan and formulates the Moon's Eye Plan.

-- Madara learns how to create Rinnegans (like the ones Tobi put into the resurrected jinchuuriki).

-- Feeling his death drawing near, Madara orders Zetsu to search for a  disciple who can bear the powers of the Rinnegan so that he will someday  be revived via Rinne Tensei. 

-- Zetsu discovers Nagato (age 9). Because he is an Uzumaki and a resident of a war-torn village, he is Madara's perfect pawn.

-- Madara/Zetsu gives Nagato the Rinnegans Madara created. Madara now relies on Hashirama's cells to prolong his life.

*19 BN* 

-- Nagato's parents are killed. 

-- The Sannin (age 20) meet Yahiko, Konan, and Nagato (age 11). Jiraiya decides to train them.

*16 BN* 

-- Jiraiya (age 22 or 23) leaves the orphans (age 14) and returns to battle. 

-- Madara returns to manipulate the orphans into creating  Akatsuki. He predicts that they will be betrayed by the increasingly  power-hungry, self-important Hanzo.

-- Madara orders Zetsu to find an Uchiha who can substitute for him until Nagato revives him. In this manner, Madara knows the substitute as his successor. He dies shortly thereafter.  

(_Madara said he'd awakened his Rinnegan "shortly" before he died. This timeline assumes that 5 years -- 21-16 BN -- is short, at least by Madara's standards._)

*15-12 BN*

-- Jiraiya (age 23-25) returns to Konoha and is assigned to mentor Minato (age 10). This is a period of relative peace.

*11-3 BN *

-- Hanzo becomes more and more insecure of Akatsuki. He begins to orchestrate Akatsuki's downfall.

-- Now in cahoots with Danzo, Hanzo betrays Akatsuki, as Madara predicted.

-- The 3rd Shinobi World War occurs.

*2-1 BN

*-- The war ends. Obito (age 13 or 14) is believed to have been killed. Kakashi (age 13) is hailed as "the hero with the Sharingan".

-- Zetsu, still searching for an Uchiha substitute for Madara, is unable  to penetrate the Uchiha compound or get his hands on an Uchiha. However, using his ability to become one with the  land, he discovers a dying Obito near his own village (i.e.,  Kusagakure, where the Kannabi Bridge was located). 

-- Using his goo (which originated from Hashirama's cells), Zetsu manages to revitalize and reconstruct Obito in his own image.

-- Rin dies shortly after the end of the 3rd Shinobi World War. 

-- Since he has been using his recording ability in conjunction with his  oneness with the land to document world events, Zetsu is able to show Obito Rin's death and the cycle of hatred that propels the ninja world.

(_Perhaps even Madara himself was able to speak to Obito by means of Zetsu's recording technique._)

-- Every other necessary ingredient for Obito's corruption and power progression falls under this time period.

*0 BN*

-- Naruto is born. Obito (age 15 or 16) attacks Konoha but ultimately fails, thanks to Minato (age 25).

*1-4 AN*

-- Obito, under the guise of Madara, begins to pull Akasuki's strings in the shadows with Zetsu's help. 

(_It is unknown how Nagato and Konan could have been fooled into believing that he is Madara. Perhaps, by obtaining Zetsu's parts, he gained Zetsu's clone technique and, using Zetsu's knowledge of Madara, was able to perfectly mimic Madara's voice, mannerisms, and chakra signature._)

-- Obito takes control of the 4th Mizukage and Kirigakure.

*4-7 AN*

-- Obito, who has grown his hair, recruits Kisame. 

-- The Uchiha are planning a coup. Itachi approaches "Madara" (long-haired Obito) to ask for his assistance.

-- Itachi joins Akatsuki and massacres his own clan with Obito's help. Around this time, Obito meets Danzo.

*8-10 AN*

 -- Nagato single-handedly annihilates Hanzo and all of his forces, effectively gaining control of Amegakure. 

-- By this time, Nagato has already mastered the Rinnegan and is ready for the sealing of the bijuu.

*11-12 AN*

-- Akatsuki begins its final preparations for its plan to capture the bijuu. 

*15 AN*

-- Akatsuki loses Sasori. Obito, under the alias "Tobi", decides to enter Akatsuki as a member so that the sealing of the bijuu will suffer no delay.


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## αce (Aug 13, 2012)

The timeline doesn't work. Madara died way before Obito was born.


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## Moon Fang (Aug 13, 2012)

If Kishi ignores the timeline practically anything is possible.


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## Raventhal (Aug 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> The timeline doesn't work. Madara died way before Obito was born.



Show me how and when Madara died?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 13, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Show me how and when Madara died?


He'd have to have died before working on Nagato with Tobi to get the Rinnegan in him. Tobi has to be someone old enough to work alongside Madara all this time and know the insides and out of Madara's plan.


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## TH4N4T0S (Aug 13, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> If Kishi ignores the timeline practically anything is possible.


No. Virtually anything is possible, regardless of whether Kishimoto ignores the timeline. This is a story where eyes can summon meteors, people can resurrect the dead, single individuals can pound and cut mountains, and moons can be created by ninjas. Kishimoto can create _any_ method to circumvent the timeline-related problems he may encounter.


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## Rargon (Aug 13, 2012)

TH4N4T0S said:


> Here's a possible timeline.
> *
> BN:* Before Naruto
> *AN:* After Naruto
> ...



This could be very accurate, Madara could have all this time been clinging to a thread of life since the VOTE battle, because he aquired Senju DNA and therefore boosted his lifeforce. We wont know until Tobi or Madara reveals what exactly happened and for how long Madara lived, but with Senju and Uchiha genes at his disposal anything is possible.


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## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

If the Tobi who controlled Yagura was Madara, it'd make no sense for Kisame to kill himself to prevent Konoha from seeing Madara's face in flashback. Or for Kishimoto to hide his face at that point. We already knew what Madara looked like. Kishimoto could've actually showed Madara's face at that point.

No, the fact that Kishimoto chose not to reveal Tobi's face back then implies that it wasn't Madara. Was it current!Tobi? Probably. But whoever it was, it most probably wasn't Madara.

Not to mention that it has been heavily implied that Nagato's Rinnegan were originally Madara's eyes. Nagato had those eyes 20-25 years ago. Obito had barely been born back then.


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## tupadre97 (Aug 13, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> As much as it pains me to write this, I think the writing is on the wall, after this latest chapter, that Tobi is, in fact, Obito. I heard many people say that it's impossible because of the timeline of events. I think the answer to that is very simple: Uchiha Madara was acting as Tobi, too. For example, the one controlling Yagura was probably Madara. Yet, how did Kisame see Tobi's face later and think it the same person? I believe Obito/Tobi is using "Zetsu goo" to change the appearance of his face to resemble Madara's. When Tobi showed his face to Sasuke, there were wrinkles under his eye in the exact same style as Uchiha Madara's. Obito wouldn't look that old unless he was doing something to change the appearance of his face.
> 
> I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point). However, at some point Madara died, and Obito is now the only one acting as Tobi.


It still doesnt make any sense bcuz he still considered Nagato a child and he unlocked the rinnegan b4 his death, therefore he had to make Tobi somehow b4 he died to give his eyes to Nagato when he was a child. That is why Tobito makes no sense.


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## Jotun (Aug 13, 2012)

If Kishi was as good as Oda was at lining shit up there would be no room for argument.

It'l be explained somehow, eventually, maybe.


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## Palpatine (Aug 13, 2012)

For all we know, time could go slower in the "other dimension".


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## αce (Aug 13, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Show me how and when Madara died?




Unless you think Madara was walking around without eyes AND that he refers to adults as "brats" that need to grow up, then this is pretty fucking obvious. He died when Nagato got the Rinnegan.


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## Haloman (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't know why people think the timeline doesn't work. Kakashi became a jounin at 13. That's manga fact. Kakashi Gaiden takes place very shortly after Kakashi becomes a jounin. In fact, that was his first mission as a jounin, which is why everyone was getting him presents.

This means Obito was roughly the same age. After all, all teams are relatively the same age as each other. Kakashi was 26-27 in Part 1. Naruto was 12-13. That means at the time of the Kyuubi attack, Kakashi was 14-15. Which would make Obito the same age.

Kakashi also said that the era of the Bloody Mist ended 10 years ago. Even if that ten years is 100% accurate and not rounding as most people are prone to do, that gives Obito 2-3 years after the Kyuubi attack to control Yagura and for Kisame to see his face. That's plenty of time.

People then start complaining about Nagato not making sense. Except the only reason anyone has a problem with this is because Tobi said he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Tobi is a confirmed liar. We have absolute proof of that. In the words of Aizen, you know he's a liar, but you believe he was telling the truth then?


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## LovePeaceandHope (Aug 13, 2012)

> I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point). However, at some point Madara died, and Obito is now the only one acting as Tobi.


Well he did change Sakura's hairstyle.  :  

But point withstanding, I agree with you on the goo and timeline. Even if its not Obito, I believe its being used to modify his(her?) appearance. For example, even though its highly unlikely, it could help explain how Tobi could be Rin.


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## SageEnergyMode (Aug 13, 2012)

Haloman said:


> I don't know why people think the timeline doesn't work. Kakashi became a jounin at 13. That's manga fact. Kakashi Gaiden takes place very shortly after Kakashi becomes a jounin. In fact, that was his first mission as a jounin, which is why everyone was getting him presents.
> 
> This means Obito was roughly the same age. After all, all teams are relatively the same age as each other. Kakashi was 26-27 in Part 1. Naruto was 12-13. That means at the time of the Kyuubi attack, Kakashi was 14-15. Which would make Obito the same age.
> 
> ...



I think it's only an assumption that he became a Jonin at age 13. People only think this because Obito was 13 at the time and they were both on the same team. Kakashi accomplished a lot of things at a much younger age than Obito did, it seems. Kakashi became a genin at age 5 and a Chuunin at age 6. Obito did those two things at age 9 and 11. It's possible Kakashi was younger than some think, but I do believe the timeline can certainly work.


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## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

Haloman said:


> I don't know why people think the timeline doesn't work. Kakashi became a jounin at 13. That's manga fact. Kakashi Gaiden takes place very shortly after Kakashi becomes a jounin. In fact, that was his first mission as a jounin, which is why everyone was getting him presents.


I don't have the time and energy to go dig up my timeline that proves how very wrong you are again because this forum does not list posts in the Telegrams among Latest Posts for some idiotic reason, so I'll just respond to the blatantly inaccurate arguments you've used in your post.



Haloman said:


> Kakashi also said that the era of the Bloody Mist ended 10 years ago.


No he didn't. He said that 10 years before the start of the manga (which would be 12-13 years), *the Village of Mist discontinued the practice of having every academy graduation class slaughter half of its members*.

Also, this assumes that Kakashi was being specific when saying "10 years" and also not misremembering. Zabuza certainly didn't look 14-15 years old in that flashback. He barely looked as old as Naruto (12 at the time) if even that.

Also, keep in mind that it was implied that Zabuza was in the academy, but had not yet become old enough to graduate or in so other way not qualified. Why would the village of the Bloody Mist have their academy students graduate at 14-15?



Haloman said:


> Even if that ten years is 100% accurate and not rounding as most people are prone to do, that gives Obito 2-3 years after the Kyuubi attack to control Yagura and for Kisame to see his face. That's plenty of time.


Except it was also heavily implied in the same breath that this academy practice and the Bloody Mist area had been going on for *quite some time*, i.e., more than 2 year's time, when Zabuza appeared and forced their hand. It's an indeterminably amount of time, but the implication is clear: It was a long period of time, certainly longer than 1-2 years.

Kakashi also specifically said that 10 years before the start of the manga, the Bloody Mist had to change the way they did things because *a year before that*, Zabuza had appeared and slaughtered the entire graduating class, so Obito would have been 13-14, i.e. had 1-2 years, at that time.

Yagura is now pretty much confirmed to have been controlled  by someone for the entirety of the Bloody Mist Era. This Bloody Mist Era lasted for several years, possibly a decade or more, not just 2 or so years. Obito simply cannot have been the one to control Yagura. So unless there was a 2nd Tobi running around, the timeline does not end up. And if there's a 2nd Tobi, why the fuck does Kisame recognize current!Tobi as the same person as past!Tobi?

Furthermore, how the fuck would Kisame mistake a 13-14 yearold for Madara?! We know Kisame knew what Madara looked like because when longhaired!Tobi stated that he was Madara, Kisame demanded that he show his face and was placated when he did.



Haloman said:


> People then start complaining about Nagato not making sense. Except the only reason anyone has a problem with this is because Tobi said he gave Nagato the Rinnegan.


Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan. He did this before Nagato awakened the Rinnegan at age 12 or whatever. When Nagato was 12 or so, Obito had either not yet been born or had barely been born. Madara then died shortly after that because why the fuck would he give Nagato his eyes if he wasn't about to die and he stated  that *he awakened the Rinnegan only shortly before death*, plus the fact that he referred to Nagato as a "brat".

*Yet Madara also knows Tobi*. So Madara knew Obito would grow up to become Tobi when Obito was but 1-3 years old?!

*Edit:* Furthermore, Madara still has his Rinnegan upon being resurrected with Edo Tensei. This lends further credence to the theory that Tobi gave his Rinnegan to Nagato after Madara died.



NarutoxKakashi said:


> I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point).


1) Then why did Kisame state that they're the same person?
2) Sakura, Ino, Hinata, Tsunade, Konohamaru, Rock Lee, Oonoki, Killer Bee, A, Itachi, Kabuto, Chouji. Shino likely has a new hairdo because his Part I hair was spiky, whereas he wears a hood that lies pretty flat on his head nowadays.
3) Kabuto has had *three* distinctly different hairstyles as of yet. One as a child, one as a teenager and one after donning his new cloak.
4) Killer Bee, likewise, has had *three* distinctly different hairstyles, one as a 5 yearold, one as a 10 yearold and one as of becoming an adult.
5) A's change of hair style is very subtle. The hair was much longer at the back in the past.

And those are just the ones I can remember at the moment.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 13, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Madara then died shortly after that because why the fuck would he give Nagato his eyes if he wasn't about to die and he stated  that *he awakened the Rinnegan only shortly before death*


*
Actually, since his Edo has his original Rinnegan eyes I think it's best to assume that he died before giving them away. The same thing happened with Itachi and Nagato. Both had their eyes taken after they died but they were revived with them anyways.*


----------



## Yuna (Aug 13, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Actually, since his Edo has his original Rinnegan eyes I think it's best to assume that he died before giving them away. The same thing happened with Itachi and Nagato. Both had their eyes taken after they died but they were revived with them anyways.


Then that simply lends more credence to the theory that it was Tobi who facilitated the transplant.


----------



## Shinen Arashi (Aug 13, 2012)

The only thing I don't think I'm able to facilitate in this timeline is how the hell Madara gave his eyes to Nagato...assuming Long Hair Masked Man was Madara and Swirly Masked Man is Tobi/Obito...

I mean...for it to be credible...Madara would have been walking around eyeless for years and had to have awakened Rinnegan very early.

This also assumes the war was 5 years long and that Kakashi/Obito/Rin all were ~13 years old during the final years of the war...I don't think they were fighting in the first few years. This also allows Itachi to have experienced ~ a year of war at the age of 5. And also assumes Nagato is Itachi's age, and helps the fact that he did experience war. (Not sure if he actually experienced the war or the aftermath...eitherway, by the time he was ~7 (when he met Jiraiya), it could be post-war or during-war (if he was younger) by my timeline.)

This should also fit into the picture of Akatsuki's setup being right before the series start. Plus, it would let Itachi meet both Obito and Madara. And let Obito fight Minato at a reasonable age. And since Kakashi and co were around 18 and Itachi was around 12 (protecting Sasuke), their ages may be around the timeframe given. These dates can be moved a couple of years to make more sense....


*Spoiler*: __ 



Madara fights Hashirama

Madara goes into hiding

Madara creates Zetsu to scout the world

-------Long Gap------

Obito, Kakashi born (~ 18 years before start)

Itachi, Nagato born (~ 10 years before start)

War breaks out (~ 10 years before start)

Madara awakens Rinnegan (this is what I'm confused about)

Madara implants Rinnegan in Nagato (why would he walk around with no eyes?) - (During The War)

Madara finds Obito with Zetsu - (During The War)

War Ends ~ (5 years before series start) (this way, Itachi's age, Kakashi's age, Nagato's age and Obito's age makes sense...)

Madara trains Obito - (After War)

Yagura controlled by Obito (~ Series Start)

Obito (18 years old) meets Kisame (~ Series Start)

Obito sets up Akatsuki under the guise of Madara (~ Series Start)

Obito attacks Konoha (~ Series Start)

Madara meets Itachi (~ 5 years after series start)

Madara dies (~ 5 years after Series Start)

Uchiha Clan Wiped Out (~ 5 years after Series Start)

Itachi threatens Obito (~ 5 years after Series Start)




If I've gotten any dates wrong, please tell me.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 13, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Then that simply lends more credence to the theory that it was Tobi who facilitated the transplant.


Bingo. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 14, 2012)

Shinen Arashi said:


> I mean...for it to be credible...Madara would have been walking around eyeless for years and had to have awakened Rinnegan very early.


Madara stated that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly before death. So, no, that's not possible.



Shinen Arashi said:


> And let Obito fight Minato at a reasonable age.


14-15?



Shinen Arashi said:


> That timeline makes zero sense.


There is no way to explain Obito as having been the one to control Yagura. None. I'm sick and tired of having to explain it again and again. Read my posts, not necessarily in this very thread.


----------



## Deana (Aug 14, 2012)

Hmm, a Uchia having a new, unique risky jutsu (that is an old jutsu that no one knows about) that allows him to time travel won't shock me at all.  (See Itachi's last battle)

But the Tobi that fought Minato being Obito's dad or grandpa is also possible.  Maybe Obito came from a family of crazies but he dared to be different and was physically and mentally hurt for it, as a child. 

Kishi not explaining it at all won't break or make this story for me.  The mystery that is Tobi is not one of the many reasons I read this manga but I will admit Tobi's treatment toward Kakashi has me entertained.


----------



## insane111 (Aug 14, 2012)

Haloman said:


> I don't know why people think the timeline doesn't work. Kakashi became a jounin at 13. That's manga fact. Kakashi Gaiden takes place very shortly after Kakashi becomes a jounin. In fact, that was his first mission as a jounin, which is why everyone was getting him presents.
> 
> This means Obito was roughly the same age. After all, all teams are relatively the same age as each other. Kakashi was 26-27 in Part 1. Naruto was 12-13. That means at the time of the Kyuubi attack, Kakashi was 14-15. Which would make Obito the same age.



Sure that might work, but only if you're willing to believe that Obito awakened MS, mastered it, gathered all kinds of knowledge, grew half a foot, and suddenly became strong enough to fight on par with Minato in the span of maybe 1 year. And then throws out a line like "Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?". Uh, you waited 1 year?


----------



## handsock (Aug 14, 2012)

*How the timeline Works out if Tobi is, in fact, Obito #2*

Hyperbolic eyeball chamber.

Time has not been discussed in Tobi's / Kamui's dimension. No one ever seems to consider it that much.


----------



## Golden Circle (Aug 14, 2012)

You are quite correct. It's a space/time jutsu, not just a space jutsu. Time is in there as well.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

Obito was 14 at the time of the Kyuubi attack.
Zabuza graduated at 9, Yagura was Kage then, Tobi was manipulating Yagura at that time, Obito was 9 at this time.



Theres no possible way Kishi can retcon the timeline


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Obito was 14 at the time of the Kyuubi attack.
> Zabuza graduated at 9, Yagura was Kage then, Tobi was manipulating Yagura at that time, Obito was 9 at this time.
> 
> 
> ...



If Tobi = Obito... Madara = Alive until at least as short time after Kakashi Gaiden.


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

*Obito/Tobi timeline.*

12 years before part I the Kyuubi attacked, Tobi led this assault:

- Kakashi was 26 at the beginning of PTI 
- He was 14 during the Kyuubi attack 
- Obito would have also been 14
- 5 years before the attack a young Kiri nin graduated at 9 years old, Zabuza.
- Zabuza, Kakashi & Obito are all the same age
- Yagura was Kage during Zabuza's graduation 
- Graduates were prime candidates for the Seven ninja sword men
- Kisame was a member of the sword men when he met Tobi 
- Hence Tobi was around manipulating Yagura when Zabuza was 9 
- Obito would have been 9 also

Conclusion:

Either a 9 year old who hadn't even awakened his base sharingan (He awakened it during Kakashi gaiden so 13 was when he awakened it) was controlling Yagura, and by proxy Kiri, or Tobi is not Obito.

P.S
______
Don't say "OH THAT DER WAS MADZ CONTROLING YAGURA" Kisame confirmed Tobi to be the long haired masked man.


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## Arya Stark (Aug 14, 2012)

This is where I put my bet as well.


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## cokshura (Aug 14, 2012)

handsock said:


> Hyperbolic eyeball chamber.
> 
> Time has not been discussed in Tobi's / Kamui's dimension. No one ever seems to consider it that much.



Crap...yes, it could be...I'd so hate that...but it could be. I still have the slightest, tiniest hope that there would be a twist and it will go some other way...


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## Turrin (Aug 14, 2012)

*The Obito Time Line*

People keep saying that Tobi = Obito can't work because Obito would be too young when Kurama's attack happened, but I think people are mistaken about this due to missing some facts.

Most people assume Kakashi and Obito were the same age in Kakashi Gaiden, but Kakashi graduated the academy at age 5, while Obito graduated the academy at age 9. Since Kakashi and Obito were put on the same team as each other we can assume it's very likely that they graduated the academy the same year. This means Obito was in-fact 4 years older than Kakashi.

We know Kakashi was 26-27 in Part I and Kurama's attack happened 12 years prior, so that would place Kakashi at 14-15 the night Kurama attacked. Now if Obito was 4 years older than Kakashi (as I have shown he likely was), than that would place Obito at 18-19 years old when Kurama attacked. 

If Obito would have in-fact been 18-19 years old during Kurama's attack, than considering he was 13 years old in Gaiden, that would mean there was 5-6 years between Gaiden and Kurama's attack. 

If one accepts this more than possible time-line not only does it account for Obito's much more mature appearance as Tobi, but 5-6 years could have been more than enough time for Obito considering his obviously high potential to become as strong as he did and 5-6 years is more than enough time for someone to manipulate and warp Obito's character significantly.

As for the issue with Madara meeting the masked man or being dead, really there is no statement of when Madara died, so it is simply an assumption on the part of this forum that Madara died around the time of Nagato being a kid. When in reality Madara could have simply experimented on Nagato as a kid to test his theories about how to achieve Rinnegan and he could have achieved Rinnegan himself much later than this, thus allowing him to at least meet Obito and than if he died shortly after Zetsu could have continued Obito's manipulation/training.

So really the time-line can be made to fit Obito = Tobi, furthermore Kishimoto has done inconsistent time-lines in the past so time-line inconsistencies should never be used to disprove a theory in this manga in the first place. So please stop using this as an argument against Tobi = Obito.


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 14, 2012)

Only thing going against this is DB putting Rin,Obito and Kakashi at the same age.

Then again, its a Kishi thing though IMO its one thing to doubt DB Battle stuff and even doubting age when it fits to everyone else and only not fitting for them.


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## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

There is no evidence of what your saying.

1. We don't know if the Bloody Mist was started on its own.  It's assumed started by Madara or Tobi because of one of them controlling Yagura but it doesn't mean they started the Bloody Mist. 

2. If Obito is Tobi and Madara knows Tobi than Madara was alive to genjutsu Yagura or at least be the one doing it prior.  

3. We have only seen Tobi on panel controlling Yagura after the Kyuubi attack.  

Please stop spouting the same point that can easily written around.

And PS 

Don't tell me in the manga you can't change your face especially for a short reveal.


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## Punished Pathos (Aug 14, 2012)

Obito is older now?


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

Kisame recognised Tobi as the real Mizukage when Tobi revealed himself to him, thus, you are wrong, bye.


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## Ichigo (Aug 14, 2012)

OP is correct.


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## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kisame recognised Tobi as the real Mizukage when Tobi revealed himself to him, thus, you are wrong, bye.



Kisame was around 18-22 when Tobi came out to him.

Kisame was 32 when he died.  Obito would be 30.

Obito would have been 16-20.

You also are in denial if you don't think people in this manga can't change their appearance to look like someone else to show his face for a short time.


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## Kaim (Aug 14, 2012)

anything to save the Obito theory lol....the timeline shits on that theory


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## Turrin (Aug 14, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Only thing going against this is DB putting Rin,Obito and Kakashi at the same age.
> 
> Then again, its a Kishi thing though IMO its one thing to doubt DB Battle stuff and even doubting age when it fits to everyone else and only not fitting for them.


Where does the Data-book put them at the same age?


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 14, 2012)

Turrin said:


> People keep saying that Tobi = Obito can't work because Obito would be too young when Kurama's attack happened, but I think people are mistaken about this due to missing some facts.
> 
> Most people assume Kakashi and Obito were the same age in Kakashi Gaiden, but Kakashi graduated the academy at age 5, while Obito graduated the academy at age 9. Since Kakashi and Obito were put on the same team as each other we can assume it's very likely that they graduated the academy the same year. This means Obito was in-fact 4 years older than Kakashi.
> 
> ...




5-6 yrs is very generous considering how quickly Naruto/Sasuke/Gaara/Kabuto have gotten drastically stronger in much shorter time, all it takes is one jutsu, if he achieved MS during or shortly after the war S/T jutsu combined with the Zetsu goo would be enough for him to be on a level able to fight Minato.

I think Orochimaru created zetsu and Tobi at the same time, as Tobi and Zetsu seem to have a very similar connection to Nagato/Konan, it adds up, Orochimaru had access to Hashirama cells , he got them from Madara, Orochimaru was one of the original Atakuski members, he was recruited for his scientific brilliance to help Madara achieve Rinnegan.

I still have a theory that Orochimaru learned Edo-Tensei to bring Madara back to life, but his body wasn't in tact and that's why he used Obito as a proxy to carry out his plans and make sure that Nagato ressurected him, now I think he's relying on Tobi to Ressurect him with the Rinnegan.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Kisame was around 18-22 when Tobi came out to him.
> 
> Kisame was 32 when he died.  Obito would be 30.
> 
> ...



"Yet despite the terror of his reign, he appeared to be kind. Apparently the people of Kiri feared that Yagura was being manipulated,[5] a fear which was confirmed by Ao" Tobi was manipulating Yagura during the academy killings.


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## Gabe (Aug 14, 2012)

the databook say obito died at age 13 or was 13 during that time and that was the time kakaski became a jounin which was also at age 13. so they were the same age. 

edit:  yeah he died at 13 _"The tighter the blood ties are [between "donor" and] receiver, the better it is for compatibility. Siblings, for example."_

his age says 13 in the second databook so the age is still the main problem for me


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## GoDMasteR (Aug 14, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Where does the Data-book put them at the same age?



here from DB II



Obito definitely died at 13 old year...


----------



## Kaim (Aug 14, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> here from DB II
> 
> 
> 
> Obito definitely died at 13 old year...



*In Magneto's voice*  You, Are, Defeated!!!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> "Yet despite the terror of his reign, he appeared to be kind. Apparently the people of Kiri feared that Yagura was being manipulated,[5] a fear which was confirmed by Ao" Tobi was manipulating Yagura during the academy killings.



Do you have a panel that shows Tobi manipulating Yagura during the Bloody Mist?  The are no panels 

The only panel we have of Tobi manipulating Yagura is after the Kyuubi attack when Kisame was 18-22. 

Bloody Mist ended when Kisame was 11.  Are you saying Tobi came out to Kisame when he was 11?  

Kisame defected to Akatsuki not long after meeting Tobi.  Itachi was 11-13 when he joined Akatsuki and Kisame joined afterwards officially meaning he was 22-24 and likely 18-22 when Tobi showed his face meaning Obito would be 16-20.

This also doesn't include the fact that substitution jutsu allows you to change your appearance.  Not to mention someone strong enough to genjutsu a jin couldn't genjutsu Kisame?


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

Ao confirmed it therefore it's manga canon that Tobi was manipulating Yagura during the bloody trails, the bloody trails ended upon Zabuza's graduation at 9 years old, Obito was the same age as Zabuza, so he was also 9 when Tobi was manipulating Yagura.

And you wont let the face swapping thing go will you? lolol


----------



## GoDMasteR (Aug 14, 2012)

let's to say one thing...

We know Kisame met with a man with long hairs... We don't know if that man was Madara o Tobi.

Many years later...

Tobi puts off his mask in front of Kisame, Kisame recognized him as "ex-mizukage-sama" or "Madara-san"

itsn't pretty obvious that the man with long hairs that Kisame met years ago is nothing else but Tobi himself ?


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> let's to say one thing...
> 
> We know Kisame met with a man with long hairs... We don't know if that man was Madara o Tobi.
> 
> ...



Yes, it is obvious, Raventhal refuses to see how obvious it is


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 14, 2012)

Tobito is one big red herring

I feel for the suckers who are twisting manga facts time-lines and make shit-ass theories to make Tobi = Obito come true


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

I do aswell, It's not even believable for Kishi to retcon Tobi being Obito, there's no way it could work or make any sense.


----------



## Nic (Aug 14, 2012)

do people realize that the bloody graduation where only the strongest survives sounds a hell of a lot more like something Madara would do than Tobi?


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## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> let's to say one thing...
> 
> We know Kisame met with a man with long hairs... We don't know if that man was Madara o Tobi.
> 
> ...



Are you guys reading.  Obito would be 16-20 when Tobi came out to Kisame clearly  meaning both masked men could be Obito.

Show me where is it specificly says and shows Tobi controlled Yagura during the bloody mist.  There were rumors someone was.  But just because Tobi was almost a decade after the bloody mist doesn't mean he was the whole time.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 14, 2012)

Gabe said:


> the databook say obito died at age 13 or was 13 during that time and that was the time kakaski became a jounin which was also at age 13. so they were the same age.
> 
> edit:  yeah he died at 13 _"The tighter the blood ties are [between "donor" and] receiver, the better it is for compatibility. Siblings, for example."_
> 
> his age says 13 in the second databook so the age is still the main problem for me



It still means he could've been 15-16 yrs old in the flashback

So Your're telling me MS Sasuke or SM Naruto couldn't walk into konoha and cause significant damage and get their ass kicked by Minato?


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## Amatsukami (Aug 14, 2012)

Unless an aging and near death Madara Uchiha pulled some strings and intervened at some point. I'm still of the opinion that the holes and irregularities in the timeline could be fixed if it could be confirmed that Madara and Tobi BOTH took turns behind the mask at some point. One character could be talking to who they think is Madara while it actually being Tobi, or vice-versa. And don't forget Zetsu's shape shifting and concealing abilities either. There are other ninja aside from Tsunade who possess the means/ability to alter their physical appearance at will.


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## Turrin (Aug 14, 2012)

GoDMasteR said:


> here from DB II
> 
> 
> 
> Obito definitely died at 13 old year...


Okay I already knew that, but where does it say Kakashi was also 13 years old when Obito died?


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

Nic said:


> do people realize that the bloody graduation where only the strongest survives sounds a hell of a lot more like something Madara would do than Tobi?



If you want me or anyone to take your argument that Obito is Tobi then start using valid points and logic instead or writing your opinion as fact then disregarding all the evidence which I posted, I have countered all your claims of Tobi being Obito, and you have nothing to base your argument on. 





Nic said:


> sounds a hell of a lot more like something Madara would do than Tobi?



Stuff like this, besides the point that it was confirmed to be the one manipulating Yagura who was responsible for the bloody mist which in turn was confirmed to be Tobi. If you have no proof to support your Tobito theory, please, go away.


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 14, 2012)

It was stated Kakashi was promoted to Jonin at age 13 in DB's

Since Kakashi Gaiden showed us his fist mission as a Jonin, it means Kakashi and Obito were the same age


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Are you guys reading.  Obito would be 16-20 when Tobi came out to Kisame clearly  meaning both masked men could be Obito.
> 
> Show me where is it specificly says and shows Tobi controlled Yagura during the bloody mist.  There were rumors someone was.  But just because Tobi was almost a decade after the bloody mist doesn't mean he was the whole time.



What dont you understand? 

- The bloody mist ended when Zabuza killed all other graduates at 9 years old
- Ao confirmed the bloody mist happened because Yagura was being manipulated
- Tobi was confirmed to be Yagura's manipulator by Kisame
- Obito was 9 when Tobi was manipulating Yagura


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## Turrin (Aug 14, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> It was stated Kakashi was promoted to Jonin at age 13 in DB's
> 
> Since Kakashi Gaiden showed us his fist mission as a Jonin, it means Kakashi and Obito were the same age


Where in the DB is that stated? I can only find when he was promoted to Chuunin and academy graduation age.


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## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> What dont you understand?
> 
> - The bloody mist ended when Zabuza killed all other graduates at 9 years old
> - Ao confirmed the bloody mist happened because Yagura was being manipulated
> ...



Just because Tobi is shown in control of the Yagura almost 10 years after the bloody mist doesn't mean that Tobi was controling Yagura the whole time.  Again I said show that Tobi was controlling Yagura during the Bloody Mist and it wasn't Madara.  You can't use things that could have happened up to 10 years later when clearly if Tobi is Obito Madara was around.  

This is like saying that since we saw Oro was the Fourth Kazekage and Gaara's dad because OMG he was Fourth Kazekage at the invasion!


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## Hexa (Aug 14, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> It was stated Kakashi was promoted to Jonin at age 13 in DB's


I don't think it did.  It definitely didn't in the "Kakashi" sections of the three databooks.

I think the idea that Kakashi was promoted to jounin at 13 is based on Obito being 13 in the gaiden.


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

Kakashi was promoted to jounin at 13, Obito died the day after, they were the same age 



Hexa said:


> I don't think it did.  It definitely didn't in the "Kakashi" sections of the three databooks.
> 
> I think the idea that Kakashi was promoted to jounin at 13 is based on Obito being 13 in the gaiden.



It doesn't matter anyway, Minato or Rin said "today is a special day for Kakashi he's now a jounin" 

Obito was confirmed to be 13 when he died therefore kakashi and Obito were the same age



Raventhal said:


> Just because Tobi is shown in control of the Yagura almost 10 years after the bloody mist doesn't mean that Tobi was controling Yagura the whole time.  Again I said show that Tobi was controlling Yagura during the Bloody Mist and it wasn't Madara.  You can't use things that could have happened up to 10 years later when clearly if Tobi is Obito Madara was around.
> 
> This is like saying that since we saw Oro was the Fourth Kazekage and Gaara's dad because OMG he was Fourth Kazekage at the invasion!



The bloody mist ended with Zabuza's graduation.
The bloody mist only happened because of Yagura's manipulator, Ao confirmed this.

Obito WAS 9 WHEN ZABUZA GRADUATED AND WHEN THE BLOODYMIST ENDED.

Tobi was controlling Yagura during the bloodymist, when Obito was 9


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## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Lets make simple.

Madara controls Yagura  
Age of Kisame | Obito
            0      |  0
skips to Bloody Mist ending
            11    |  9
skip to Obito crushing
            15    |  13
skips to Kyuubi attack
          16-17  | 14-15
Anytime after this Obito could have taken Madara's place and grown hair.
skips to Tobi and Kisame meeting
           18-23 |  16-21
Skips to Uchiha massacre
              24   | 22
skips to Kisame paired with Itachi
              24   | 22
skips to Tobi showing Kisame face again.
              32   | 30


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

LMAO your such a troll go away, I negged you btw


----------



## Nic (Aug 14, 2012)

not to mention it's seriously iffy concerning Nagato's age.



Ezekial said:


> It doesn't matter anyway, Minato or Rin said "today is a special day for Kakashi he's now a jounin"
> 
> *Obito was confirmed to be 13 when he died therefore kakashi and Obito were the same age*



would be nice if you explained this. lol


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> The bloody mist ended with Zabuza's graduation.
> The bloody mist only happened because of Yagura's manipulator, Ao confirmed this.
> 
> Obito WAS 9 WHEN ZABUZA GRADUATED AND WHEN THE BLOODYMIST ENDED.
> ...



It says because he was manipulated.  It does not mean that the manipulators did not change.  You did not know. You are speculating lol.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

I'm speculating? LMAO that's rich, your whole pointless argument is speculation.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> LMAO your such a troll go away, I negged you btw



Lol, you're the only one trolling here.  You are the only one who won't consider that maybe the people manipulating changed at some point.  If Obito is Tobi he obviously picked up the ball at some point.  You're just in denial that Tobi could be Obito.  You have no evidence except Tobi is controlling same person like 10 years later.  

Oh I'm a sure I won't sleep at night because you negged me on the Naruto forums.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

Nic said:


> would be nice if you explained this. lol




"13 (deceased)"



"At the age of 13, soon after becoming a jōnin, Kakashi was assigned to lead Obito and Rin on a mission that would benefit Konoha in the ongoing Third Shinobi World War. They were to destroy the Kannabi Bridge, which was being used by Iwagakure forces to move into Kusagakure."


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## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

No, my points are valid and proven, you're basing your entire argument on an assumption that Yagura's manipulater was actually Madara at one point? Now you have zero evidence to back you assumption up so you're getting annoying and trying to say your assumptions are canon, when infact you have no proof, not even a hint. I, however have stated pure facts and manga canon, you know you've lost this argument so you keep trolling, goodbye


----------



## azn7136 (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kisame recognised Tobi as the real Mizukage when Tobi revealed himself to him, thus, you are wrong, bye.



Tobi is made of Zetsu-goo. What is one quality of Zetsu-goo? You can become anybody whose chakra that Zetsu-goo has come into contact with.

At the very least, it's confirmed that Tobi has Obito's eye. However, he also knows a lot about Kakashi. Does Madara, or Izuna, know about Kakashi's promises to an empty grave? Who else knows about Kakashi's personality that well?

Now, I'm not saying 100% confirmed Obito, but it points that way. Why did Kishi make Kakashi Gaiden, then say Kakashi would play a vital part in this war? Why are their S/T's related? Most clues point to Obito, and barely any clues point to other sources. The TimeLine is worthless because Kishi breaks his timeline so much. Even with Itachi, there was a lot of confusion until Kishi cleared it up


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> No, my points are valid and proven, you're basing your entire argument on an assumption that Yagura's manipulater was actually Madara at one point? Now you have zero evidence to back you assumption up so you're getting annoying and trying to say your assumptions are canon, when infact you have no proof, not even a hint. I, however have stated pure facts and manga canon, you know you've lost this argument so you keep trolling, goodbye



It's not canon in a manga 100% until its shown or said.  

What I am saying it that you have no proof that Tobi was the manipulator that caused the bloody mist.  The history is vague on purpose.  You are assuming because Tobi was manipulating Yagura almost 10 years later that it's canon that he manipulated him the whole time.  

If Obito is Tobi then you will be wrong.  So what happens then?


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 14, 2012)

The real timeline inconsistency that kills Obito for me isn't the bloody mist one. 

The one I'm talking about has to do with Nagato's eyes.

-Kishi confirms Madara and Tobi know each other.
-Real Madara was revived with his original eyes(Real Madara died while his eyes were still in his sockets).
-Real Madara can't give Nagato his Rinnegan if he's dead.
-Real Madara can't possibly know who Obito is if he's dead way before Obito is even born.

"But Nagato awakened the Rinnegan himself when his parents were killed"

We never saw his eyes until he got pissed that those ninjas killed his parents. His hair was covering them. That's suspicious if you ask me.

"Maybe Madara had a separate Rinnegan"

Where? Why would Tobi go and take Nagato's if there was another pair? He planned to go through with the moon eye plan himself so why go through the trouble?



The only way this can work is if Obito can time travel, but if he's spouting shit like

*"It's too late to regret. Reality is just cruelly moving forward."*

I doubt he can go back in time and change anything.


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 14, 2012)

Kaim said:


> anything to save the Obito theory lol....the timeline shits on that theory



Using timeline to disprove a theory is a weak argument in the first place, the fact that anti-Obitos have nothing but the timeline speaks a lot of the Obito plausibility.

Just asking, since it seems the timeline is the only thing anti Obito have, which is a very weak evidence. If they have other things, I might be able to reconsider.


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Kisame recognised Tobi as the real Mizukage when Tobi revealed himself to him, thus, you are wrong, bye.



There's this thing called genjutsu...


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Just asking, since it seems the timeline is the only thing anti Obito have, which is a very weak evidence. If they have other things, I might be able to reconsider.



Yes.  It's hard to argue against a theory when all signs are pointing to it.  The other weak argument is that the barrage of supporting evidence is all red herrings, and that we're all falling in Kishi's trap.


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## Descent of the Lion (Aug 14, 2012)

There is no "evidence." It's all conjecture.


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## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Using timeline to disprove a theory is a weak argument in the first place, the fact that anti-Obitos have nothing but the timeline speaks a lot of the Obito plausibility.


And the timeline is a weak argument because ?

Oh yeah, it's a weak argument because it doesn't support the Tobito theory. Let's review the supposedly strong arguments of the Tobito theorists : "He has Obito's eye" (and the same strong argument strongly asserts that Danzo is strongly Shisui), "Tobi seems to have a beef against Kakashi, he must be Obito" ... lol.


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Just asking, since it seems the timeline is the only thing anti Obito have, which is a very weak evidence. If they have other things, I might be able to reconsider.






Obito's hair was always that spiky. Tobi's wasn't. The mask pic is from after he claimed he was Madara. Cover art from 392.

well


----------



## Rama (Aug 14, 2012)

I remember Turrin making a thread similar to this a few months back, I still agree with him.

It was never specified what age Kakashi was in Gaiden nor there was any statement that implies he was the same age of Obito, unofficial NARUTO info sites assume he was 13 because Obito was 13 and all team members are usually the same age, but unlike any other teams Kakashi didn't graduate the same age as his teammates but was still put in the same team.

So 3 things could have happen:

1. He is the same age as Obito and since he graduate first he was put on a different team initially and then later transfered(for unknown reasons) to Minato's team when Obito and Rin graduated.

2. They all graduate the same year and where put on the same team where Kakashi was younger. 

3. The info of when each Shinobi graduated is convoluted given that Kishimoto didn't planned the timeline well.  

If you look at these 3 options which one is the most plausible?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Honestly most of the timeline issues are people entrenched into assumptions about the timeline.  So much of the timeline is murky and ambigious.  

The fact remains that all panel sightings of Tobi have been after Obito disappeared is the only thing that matters.

Kish in a way has validated that if Obito is Tobi, Madara was around for a long time.  At least long enought to meet Obito.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 14, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Honestly most of the timeline issues are people entrenched into assumptions about the timeline.  So much of the timeline is murky and ambigious.
> 
> The fact remains that all panel sightings of Tobi have been after Obito disappeared is the only thing that matters.



Yes, this.

A thousand times this.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Just asking, since it seems the timeline is the only thing anti Obito have, which is a very weak evidence. If they have other things, I might be able to reconsider.


Timeline is a very weak evidence by the standards of a Tobito theorist indeed


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## Descent of the Lion (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> Timeline is a very weak evidence by the standards of a Tobito theorist indeed



I think he meant that the timeline is not evidence, as it is all hearsay and speculation.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> Timeline is a very weak evidence by the standards of a Tobito theorist indeed



Well considering that anti-Tobito theorists don't even KNOW the timeline I fail to see how its not a weak argument.

Basically you assume the timeline, and because Tobito doesn't fit your assumptions, you assume yet again that it is implausible.  Last I checked, Kishi never gave us the exact timeline.


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 14, 2012)

Well,  if you assume that Tobi=Obito it raises the question of what origin then Zetsu is. Because then either Madara is a closet scientist, Orochimaru was involved, he is actually born natural or its a plothole.

On the other side the timeline in this manga is a moot point and i actually wonder if someone in it will lampshade this by saying he has no idea what day it is because he doesnt get their calendar system.

That aside if you ask me there is no proof on either side and whatever he is proclaimed to be is based on personal perception and preference so it is not surprising that the arguements never end and started to become pythonesque.


----------



## Kali95 (Aug 14, 2012)

1. The side of his face we've seen is an old man face. People try to say the wrinkles are scars, but that's nonsense. They don't look anything like scars, they are drawn the same way as all old characters in the series

2. If Obito is Tobi, then he grew 5-6 inches in 1 year (databook shows Obito and Tobi's height), not sure if that counts as a timeline argument

3. Tobi said he had no reason to lie because Konan was dying anyways, so I believe he wasn't lying there

4. Kyuubi recognized his chakra, so he must have some of Madara's chakra somehow

5. The Zetsu arm that Tobi lost against Minato was *not* the side that got crushed, why would he have replaced his good arm?

6. He said to Kushina "Do you know how long I've awaited this moment", there is no way to explain this comment at all it just doesn't make sense

7. Kisame recognized the long and short haired Tobi to be the same person


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> Timeline is a very weak evidence by the standards of a Tobito theorist indeed



Are you saying the timeline/story has never changed with reveals?  

Itachi kills his clan and mind raped for laughs is still the current story?


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

So you are all basing your Obito theory on 3 things:

- Zetsu goo, because he can change his appearance 
- He put Kisame under genjutsu
- The timeline is somehow incorrect

Really? Do you not see how stupid that is?

It's not that I dont want Tobi to be Obito, I wouldn't really be bothered, but Kishi would be the worst writer ever as he'd have to retcon the entire timeline, it's that I'm trying to show you how wrong and baseless your theories are, You're assuming Tobi is Obito because he has his eye, Kishi is making it far too obvious, and if i'm wrong I will hold my hands up and say sorry, but I bet i'm not.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> Well considering that anti-Tobito theorists don't even KNOW the timeline I fail to see how its not a weak argument.
> 
> Basically you assume the timeline, and because Tobito doesn't fit your assumptions, you assume yet again that it is implausible.  Last I checked, Kishi never gave us the exact timeline.


Yea Tobito theorists get the timeline right : Obito is 4 years older than Kakashi 



Raventhal said:


> Are you saying the timeline/story has never changed with reveals?
> 
> Itachi kills his clan and mind raped for laughs is still the current story?


Our knowledge of the story changed indeed. But the timeline changing ? Hell no. Why are you trying to get us to confused the timeline with the story ? Oh I get it : The story changed so the timeline has to be able to change too, here comes the Tobito theory.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 14, 2012)

lol Obito changed from a Naruto type of character to Psychopath, who gives free Rinnengans and happens to know everything about the past.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 14, 2012)

The timeline is "weak evidence"? Have you heard what you're saying? The timeline is the strongest evidence you could possibly have.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 14, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> 1. The side of his face we've seen is an old man face. People try to say the wrinkles are scars, but that's nonsense. They don't look anything like scars, they are drawn the same way as all old characters in the series



His face got crushed under a rock.  Are you really trying to tell me Obito's face should look brand spanking new as if half of it never got pulverized?  Yes, Obito is going to look a young and sexy 26 years old after having half of his face crushed under giant boulders.  For all we know that half of his face might not even be HIS.  It's a miracle of plot his eye is even intact considering.



> 2. If Obito is Tobi, then he grew 5-6 inches in 1 year (databook shows Obito and Tobi's height), not sure if that counts as a timeline argument



Databook is not canon.  Christ.



> 3. Tobi said he had no reason to lie because Konan was dying anyways, so I believe he wasn't lying there



An assumption isn't really evidence tho



> 4. Kyuubi recognized his chakra, so he must have some of Madara's chakra somehow



Half of his face/body was reconstructed.  Remember?  It got crushed under a rock.  Getting someone else's DNA to fill in the holes is not really a far-out idea lol.



> 5. The Zetsu arm that Tobi lost against Minato was *not* the side that got crushed, why would he have replaced his good arm?



I'm assuming Senju cells spread throughout the entire body.  I don't think you could isolate them to a single body part, because they'd be carried through the bloodstream.



> 6. He said to Kushina "Do you know how long I've awaited this moment", there is no way to explain this comment at all it just doesn't make sense



Exactly, regardless of who he is.



> 7. Kisame recognized the long and short haired Tobi to be the same person



We have no idea if they were the same person, Kisame just might have assumed as much.



Ezekial said:


> The timeline is "weak evidence"? Have you heard what you're saying? The timeline is the strongest evidence you could possibly have.



For god sakes you don't know the fucking timeline.  That's why its weak evidence.  You're trying to use your timeline assumptions as evidence, but they are just assumptions.  I apologize for not assuming you to be correct.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> Databook is not canon.  Christ.


It's still far more believable than a Tobito theorist


----------



## insane111 (Aug 14, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> Exactly, regardless of who he is.



How so? If he's someone from Madara's generation the comment makes perfect sense. 

As for his face, nobody is saying his face should look normal. It should have _messy looking, randomly placed scars_. Not clean wrinkles that are where you'd expect them to be on an old man's face.


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> Timeline is a very weak evidence by the standards of a Tobito theorist indeed



So it seems Im right, bar the timeline there is no other argument, or you have any other? Thats all Im asking, is there any other proof? Becuase so far I havent seen anything bar the timeline being mentioned. It seems that the entire anti-Obito argument clings entirely on the timeline, if I am wrong please prove me wrong.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> 1. The side of his face we've seen is an old man face. People try to say the wrinkles are scars, but that's nonsense. They don't look anything like scars, they are drawn the same way as all old characters in the series
> 
> 2. If Obito is Tobi, then he grew 5-6 inches in 1 year (databook shows Obito and Tobi's height), not sure if that counts as a timeline argument
> 
> ...



1. The left side of his face looks unmarked and certainly not drawn like older characters.



On his right side the wrinkles go beyond his cheeks if you look at the top pane where Sasuke amaterasu Tobi.

2. It was like more like 1.5 years and it's not impossible.  I did 6 inches in 2 years myself.

3.  He was lying about being Madara then.  He also had no reason to act like Goofy Tobi by himself or with people in the know or lie to Kabuto 2 seconds after being outed as not Madara.

4. We don't know Kyuubi's abilities beside sensing evil.  We also don't know if he recognized him. He just said you... which is open to interpetation.  

5. Good chance boulders fell all over him.  

6. Again that's opinionated.  If Madara turned Obito into a rabid dog his patience might be lower.  

7. All masked men panels are after Obito disappeared.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 14, 2012)

insane111 said:


> How so? If he's someone from Madara's generation the comment makes perfect sense.



Honestly I have no idea.  I haven't read it in context for a long time so I'm probably just forgetting the context it was in.



> As for his face, nobody is saying his face should look normal. It should have _messy looking, randomly placed scars_. Not clean wrinkles that are where you'd expect them to be on an old man's face.



Ehhh but that's assuming its Obito's skin and face...least that half of it.  I'm assuming if it was crushed under a rock stitches won't do the trick.  You'd basically need a new face, as your skin would be tattered and pulverized.  They could have taken someone else's face and used that.  I mean there are a number of reasons his face looks the way it does.  It did get pulverized after all.

EDIT: You can imagine that what i'm saying is the other half of his face could look more appropriate for his age if he were Obito.  But remember we haven't seen it, there's no reason to assume both halves are the same, especially when dealing with Obito.

EDIT 2:  In fact, Kishi showed us half of his face when Itachi's Amaterasu fired off.  That should prove by itself that the other half does not look the same.  If it did, then Kishi gave away his identity ages ago, and continued use of the mask would be pointless.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> Our knowledge of the story changed indeed. But the timeline changing ? Hell no. Why are you trying to get us to confused the timeline with the story ? Oh I get it : The story changed so the timeline has to be able to change too, here comes the Tobito theory.



So Sasuke awakening his sharingan didn't change on the timeline because of a the Itachi reveal?  

Because the story is the timeline.  For example, Madara is dead.  Then we find out that he didn't die and was around doing stuff.  That means the timeline change because the story changed.  It's not a hard concept.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> So it seems Im right, bar the timeline there is no other argument, or you have any other? Thats all Im asking, is there any other proof? Becuase so far I havent seen anything bar the timeline being mentioned. It seems that the entire anti-Obito argument clings entirely on the timeline, if I am wrong please prove me wrong.


You know what ? You remind me of the supporters of homeopathy : "So it seems Im right, bar the countless double-blind experiments revealing that homeopathy is bunk there is no other argument".

No there is no other proof, but a valid proof surely prevails against speculations like "he has Obito's eye so he must be Obito", "he has a beef against Kakashi, so he must be Obito" etc.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> You know what ? You remind me of the supporters of homeopathy : "So it seems Im right, bar the countless double-blind experiments revealing that homeopathy is bunk there is no other argument".
> 
> No there is no other proof, but a valid proof surely prevails against speculations like "he has Obito's eye so he must be Obito", "he has a beef against Kakashi, so he must be Obito" etc.



You are not telling me that your assumptions about a timeline of which you have no definitive proof of equates to a series of double-blind experiments.

Tell me you're joking.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> You know what ? You remind me of the supporters of homeopathy : "So it seems Im right, bar the countless double-blind experiments revealing that homeopathy is bunk there is no other argument".
> 
> No there is no other proof, but a valid proof surely prevails against speculations like "he has Obito's eye so he must be Obito", "he has a beef against Kakashi, so he must be Obito" etc.



I know just because Obito has a beef with Kakashi that revolves around his final words, his eye, his hair type, deformity only on the right side of his face that Obito happened to have trapped under a rock, appeared after Obito disappeared.

A vague crappy timeline that can't really be proven and him being too powerful at young age in a manga full of overpowered teens is the Tobito killer!


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> You are not telling me that your assumptions about a timeline of which you have no definitive proof of equates to a series of double-blind experiments.
> 
> Tell me you're joking.


No man, I don't assume things, I read. But apparently, my readings are invalid because it's time to flush the databook down the toilet specifically to make room for the Tobito theory 

But ok, let's assume Obito was really 17 in the bridge thing, the re-read the chapter, Obito must have been part of the midget branch of the Uchiha family wow !


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> You know what ? You remind me of the supporters of homeopathy : "So it seems Im right, bar the countless double-blind experiments revealing that homeopathy is bunk there is no other argument".
> 
> No there is no other proof, but a valid proof surely prevails against speculations like "he has Obito's eye so he must be Obito", "he has a beef against Kakashi, so he must be Obito" etc.



It isnt, in a fictional work you shouldnt cling 100% of your theory to the timeline becuase the author can just diss it, or even if necessary include retrocausality.


----------



## Matt-Uchiha (Aug 14, 2012)

On the height issue, remember Tobi has Senju DNA/Zetsu goo that seems to have healed/reconstructed the crushed parts of Obito's body. 

His leg was also crushed. If Madara impanted some of Zetsu into Obito to heal him --including his leg-- it might have made him a bit taller. It's reasonable to say that he might have used it on his other leg as well to even out the height and make his body stronger anyway.


----------



## Rama (Aug 14, 2012)

Anti Tobito theorists always fail to give any good arguments to proove why they believe their timeline is the correct time line, is all just based in assumptions.  Anyway I leave this here, just some analysis to show how flawed this anti Tobito theory is.

The Anti-Tobito theorists argument to why Kakashi is apparently the same age as Obito in Gaiden

-_Obito died at the age of 13 so Kakashi being on the same team must be 13, since all the rookie 11 who are teamed up are the same age_-

First of all theres no official statement which says or implies Kakashi was 13 in Gaiden I just wanna make that clear; second of all we must realize that _Team Minato_ was not like the teams which are composed of the rookie 11, the main difference with _Team Minato_ is that we have teammates who graduated on different ages unlike any of the rookie 11. So how is it possible that two people who graduated at different ages are assign to the same team who is established instantly when someone graduates if indeed they are the same age? 

Ive come up with 4 scenarios to answer this question.

_1. He is the same age as Obito, since he graduate first he was put on a different team initially and then later transfered(for unknown reasons) to Minato's team when Obito and Rin graduated.

 2. They all graduate the same year and where put on the same team where Kakashi was younger.

 3. Kakashi graduated before Obito and Rin but had to wait till the age of 9 to be assign to a team. 

 4. The info of when each Shinobi graduated is convoluted given that Kishimoto didn't planned the timeline well._

Ok now to analyze each scenerio.

1.  This is a plausible scenario but not a probable one, the main problem is that we have no info even implying that Kakashi was in a team before Team Minato so is just baseless speculating. 

2. Only probable scenario in my opinion, not because I'm just trying to reject the Anti Tobito theorist timeline but because out of all the scenarios ive mentioned(which in my opinion are the only good ones) this one doesn't stray from the norm of the Konoha Shinobi System or assumes too much. 

Kakashi was a genius, graduate in the same year as his much older classmates and for this reason he was appointed to a team with older teammates....very simple.

3. Just like scenario #1 it could happen but we have no record in the manga of a shinobi being restricted from entering a team just because of young age. 

4. This right here is just plainly denying the facts and hoping that the author did a mistake.


As you can see #2 is the best scenario to explain the question I propose at first and if #2 is correct then it means that Tobi would be 19 when he invaded Konoha disregarding any illogical event the Anti Tobito theorists propose happened during the Konoha Invasion(Tobi getting too powerful too fast).  Of course if you have any other plausible and probable scenarios I haven't mentioned feel free to tell me which are.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> It isnt, in a fictional work you shouldnt cling 100% of your theory to the timeline becuase the author can just diss it, or even if necessary include retrocausality.


I pay some respect to Kishimoto, I believe he is able to form a coherent output, and that includes a believable timeline. But then, if you think that the author can just "diss it" or include "retrocausality", why do you keep trying to argue about the manga, really ? Ok, let's go with "anything is possible because anything is possible in a manga", the Tobito theory doesn't get more clever explanation than that.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> No man, I don't assume things, I read. But apparently, my readings are invalid because it's time to flush the databook down the toilet specifically to make room for the Tobito theory



If it's not in the manga it's not canon.  A manga doesn't strive to keep from conflicting with the databook.  The manga conflicts with databooks all the time.  In fact, two successive databooks often conflict each other.  If you are seriously relying on a databook to prove your point I feel sorry for you.

And the databook doesn't even have the timeline anyway so you are full of fluff.



> But ok, let's assume Obito was really 17 in the bridge thing, the re-read the chapter, Obito must have been part of the midget branch of the Uchiha family wow !



Can you please leave your timeline assumptions out of this.  I'm not debating your imaginary timeline.


----------



## Battoumaru (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> You know what ? You remind me of the supporters of homeopathy : "So it seems Im right, bar the countless double-blind experiments revealing that homeopathy is bunk there is no other argument".
> 
> No there is no other proof, but a valid proof surely prevails against speculations like "he has Obito's eye so he must be Obito", "he has a beef against Kakashi, so he must be Obito" etc.



I know you didn't just compare the decision not to rely on a timeline that isn't set in stone with the decision to ignore the results of data found via Statistical processes.

That's two different situations. Situation 1 is warranted, considering that the timeline changes a LOT. Situation 2 is not warranted, barring a confidence test showing that there was obvious screwery with the data.

Bad analogy.


----------



## Inferno (Aug 14, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> 1. The side of his face we've seen is an old man face. People try to say the wrinkles are scars, but that's nonsense. They don't look anything like scars, they are drawn the same way as all old characters in the series
> 
> 2. If Obito is Tobi, then he grew 5-6 inches in 1 year (databook shows Obito and Tobi's height), not sure if that counts as a timeline argument
> 
> ...



These. I can't see Tobi being Obito.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> I know you didn't just compare the decision not to rely on a timeline that isn't set in stone with the decision to ignore the use of Statistical processes.
> 
> That's two different situations. Situation 1 is warranted, considering that the timeline changes a LOT. Situation 2 is not warranted, barring a confidence test showing that there was obvious screwery with the data.
> 
> Bad analogy.


The analogy is there because the guy argues that anti-Tobito theorist should raise multiple proofs. The answer in the analogy is that you don't need multiple proofs when there's already a concrete one.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> I pay some respect to Kishimoto, I believe he is able to form a coherent output, and that includes a believable timeline. But then, if you think that the author can just "diss it" or include "retrocausality", why do you keep trying to argue about the manga, really ? Ok, let's go with "anything is possible because anything is possible in a manga", the Tobito theory doesn't get more clever explanation than that.



If it's only hearsay it can change.  If the narrator is not reliable things can change.  If it's not shown on panel and elaborated it may not have happened or happend like you think.

People complaining about a growth spurt when you have spirit avatars coming out of bleeding red glowing eyes.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> Can you please leave your timeline assumptions out of this.  I'm not debating your imaginary timeline.


The funny thing is that I DID leave the timeline out of this in the last bit of text you just quoted.


----------



## Battoumaru (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> The analogy is there because the guy argues that anti-Tobito theorist should raise multiple proofs. The answer in the analogy is that you don't need multiple proofs when there's already a concrete one.



Except the timeline isn't a concrete proof. The timeline changes with Kishi's big reveals, like Madara being alive longer than initially believed.



> 1. The side of his face we've seen is an old man face. People try to say the wrinkles are scars, but that's nonsense. They don't look anything like scars, they are drawn the same way as all old characters in the series
> 
> *Have you noticed the wrinkles/eye marks that Uchiha develop at a young age? Even Sasuke has developed them now. Also, one of the sides has longer wrinkles than the other, as mentioned before--implying that the two sides of his face aren't quite the same.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> The analogy is there because the guy argues that anti-Tobito theorist should raise multiple proofs. The answer in the analogy is that you don't need multiple proofs when there's already a concrete one.



What is concrete.  Almost all of the timeline issues come from things Tobi said while pretending to be Madara.

I don't see anyone here saying that Minato vs. Tobi never happend because he told Sasuke him tha the Kyuubi attacked on his own and they blamed the Uchiha Clan.


----------



## Blur (Aug 14, 2012)

If there is a hyperbole time chamber in Tobi's pocket dimension then even the timeline is not a problem. Or if there are two Tobi's the timeline is also not a problem. (Madara and Obito). Madara could always mind rape Tobi, or the death of Rin mind raped him, or Zetsu did it. All in all the anti Tobito suporters have no evidence to their claims and say that all of supporters evidence is bullshit, when in reality their claims are. Oh and also they are in denial.


----------



## BBQuyomi (Aug 14, 2012)

Battoumaru said:


> Except the timeline isn't a concrete proof. The timeline changes with Kishi's big reveals, like Madara being alive longer than initially believed.


The events in the timeline change. But the timeline changing to make events conflict against each other while these events have been depicted in detail ? Ok, still possible since _everything_ is possible, but this gets on a whole new level.


----------



## Algol (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> P.S
> ______
> Don't say "OH THAT DER WAS MADZ CONTROLING YAGURA" Kisame confirmed Tobi to be the long haired masked man.



Or Tobi just used the transformation technique or a bunch of other skills to make himself look like Madara (or just the same person Kisame met before), when he took off his mask for Kisame, so that Kisame would remain loyal to him and Akatsuki.

You could be right, Ezekial. But then again, it's also seriously that simple if Kishi wants it to be.


----------



## Algol (Aug 14, 2012)

AMtrack said:


> Yes.  It's hard to argue against a theory when all signs are pointing to it.  The other weak argument is that the barrage of supporting evidence is all red herrings, and that we're all falling in Kishi's trap.



I agree. I could eat my words, but it's funny they're all claiming it's red herrings now, when they don't realzie that we are the only ones who scrutinize every detail of kishi's manga unlike the casual readers, and that kishi has been very obvious about things before it happened (jiraiya/asuma's death, pain's secret as nagato before it was revealed to naruto, tobi hinted to not being madara before kabuto used his trump card, itachi being a good guy by meeting naruto in forest before fight w/ sasuke, etc.).

Kishi drops a lot of hints, then plays them straight apparently.


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 14, 2012)

BBQuyomi said:


> I pay some respect to Kishimoto, I believe he is able to form a coherent output, and that includes a believable timeline. But then, if you think that the author can just "diss it" or include "retrocausality", why do you keep trying to argue about the manga, really ? Ok, let's go with "anything is possible because anything is possible in a manga", the Tobito theory doesn't get more clever explanation than that.



That would be in a manga where the author has always given us a 100% consistant timeline, but this wouldnt be the firstime we have a timeline loop.

Secondly, the fact that the guy has the eyes that are specialized in TIME-SPACE jutsu would make me take with a grain of salt saying that the timeline is enough to rule out Obito, there could be multiple explanations, retrocausality is one aka that his S/T allowed him to time travel or in his dimension time could go faster. Again its all speculation but when we are discussing the theory that he might be the greatest time-space user of them all and that his eyes are specialized in S/T I would take it with a grain of salt.

But even if all of this is ignored, even if you are 100% correct the worst thing is that the timeline doesnt dictate impossibility it merely dictated unlikelyhood, in the timeline you are supporting 1 year passed since the Minato attack. Its unlikely that Obito reached Minato level in 1 year, yet its not impossible, its unlikely that Obito got so twisted in 1 year but its not impossible, its unlikely that Obito grew to that size in 1 year, but its not impossible. Kabuto in a matter of months was able to reach a level close to RS with his edo army for example.

The issue is that there are some possible explanations to the timeline it isnt an absolute, explanations could go as shitty as Kishi (as has been other times) being inconsistant, to explain time is different in his dimension to time travel.

But even all that is that even respecting the timeline you propose it doesnt exclude Obito it merely says its very unlikely, now sum this with the possible explanation Kishi can give which may invalidate at all the timeline you propose and this is why I say its a weak argument, it would be interesting if it was enforced with many other things but the anti-Obito clings 100% to the timeline something that has explanations and even if it didnt it doesnt rule out Obito it merely says a lot of unlikely event yet possible had to occur.


----------



## Arles Celes (Aug 14, 2012)

Well...there is also the timeline.

Oh...wait

Though I recall some people also complaining on how Obito's hight does not fit Tobi's at that time.

And the change in personality, but with guys like Sasuke, Gaara, and Nagato each of whom transformed from a nice kid to a psycho then.....


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## Battoumaru (Aug 14, 2012)

The height was from the datebook, which is not very reliable as a source at all.

The datebooks says whatever keeps fans off of the trail of Kishi's real plot.

i.e.: Tobi is Madara.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 14, 2012)

Humite Juubi said:


> i actually wonder if someone in it will lampshade this by saying he has no idea what day it is because he doesnt get their calendar system.



 

Awesome.


----------



## AlphaReaver (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> So it seems Im right, bar the timeline there is no other argument, or you have any other? Thats all Im asking, is there any other proof? Becuase so far I havent seen anything bar the timeline being mentioned. It seems that the entire anti-Obito argument clings entirely on the timeline, if I am wrong please prove me wrong.



Their MAIN Argument was that Obito's Head Was CRUSHED (Including His Eye) BUT Since His Eye is Alive & Well, Now They Forgot All About That Claim.

OH & They Said He Was Madara, lol
& then ET happened & they forgot about that too.


----------



## Gabe (Aug 14, 2012)

time line is not weak evidence it is very strong evidence not to fully believe in the obito theory


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## Descent of the Lion (Aug 14, 2012)

Gabe said:


> time line is not weak evidence it is very strong evidence not to fully believe in the obito theory



It would be if one existed. All we have are plot scraps held together with flimsy speculative sinew.


----------



## Summers (Aug 14, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Using timeline to disprove a theory is a weak argument in the first place, the fact that anti-Obitos have nothing but the timeline speaks a lot of the Obito plausibility.



So the timeline and the Cannon facts that make it up have now become a weak argument, and now in fact show how likely it is that the Tobito theory is correct. Ya know since facts are so unreliable compared to..... No never-mind, facts are better. I hope you are being sarcastic.


----------



## King Scoop (Aug 14, 2012)

Kali95 said:


> 1. The side of his face we've seen is an old man face. People try to say the wrinkles are scars, but that's nonsense. They don't look anything like scars, they are drawn the same way as all old characters in the series
> 
> 2. If Obito is Tobi, then he grew 5-6 inches in 1 year (databook shows Obito and Tobi's height), not sure if that counts as a timeline argument
> 
> ...



1. A boulder fell on his face. And it's the only side that looks like that.

2. It's called a growth spurt it's not uncommon.

3. He wasn't revealed to be the a fake Madara yet, so he had to lie for the readers.

4. Possible

5. More boulders fell on him

6. It's reasonable after waiting a while, even a year.

7.  He's was in on Tobi not being the real Madara.


----------



## jimbob631 (Aug 14, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> The bloody mist ended with Zabuza's graduation.
> The bloody mist only happened because of Yagura's manipulator, Ao confirmed this.
> 
> Obito WAS 9 WHEN ZABUZA GRADUATED AND WHEN THE BLOODYMIST ENDED.
> ...



Dude relax.  

Madara could have originally controlled Yagura with Obito controlling him later as we know they knew each other.  Tobi could've also placed a genjutsu or altered his appearance for Kisame.


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## Kali95 (Aug 14, 2012)

It's a manga fact that the Kyuubi attack happened 16 years before part 1, lol @ people calling the timeline speculation. Or are they trying to say that the character ages listed in the Databook don't count?  yeah, nice try.


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## Summers (Aug 14, 2012)

Has there been a thread merge.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Aug 14, 2012)

Summers said:


> So the timeline and the Cannon facts that make it up have now become a weak argument, and now in fact show how likely it is that the Tobito theory is correct. Ya know since facts are so unreliable compared to..... No never-mind, facts are better. I hope you are being sarcastic.



Kishimoto has fucked the timeline before (see everything about Itachi).


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## Summers (Aug 14, 2012)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> Kishimoto has fucked the timeline before (see everything about Itachi).



Was it to the point that what Itachi did was impossible though?


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## joshhookway (Aug 14, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> As much as it pains me to write this, I think the writing is on the wall, after this latest chapter, that Tobi is, in fact, Obito. I heard many people say that it's impossible because of the timeline of events. I think the answer to that is very simple: Uchiha Madara was acting as Tobi, too. For example, the one controlling Yagura was probably Madara. Yet, how did Kisame see Tobi's face later and think it the same person? I believe Obito/Tobi is using "Zetsu goo" to change the appearance of his face to resemble Madara's. When Tobi showed his face to Sasuke, there were wrinkles under his eye in the exact same style as Uchiha Madara's. Obito wouldn't look that old unless he was doing something to change the appearance of his face.
> 
> I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point). However, at some point Madara died, and Obito is now the only one acting as Tobi.


Sakura says hi


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## Grendel (Aug 14, 2012)

Itachi's timeline doesn't work but people still give itachi credit for beating oro at 11...

Met tobi right before massacre (confirmed in itachis flashback) at 13 yet somehow is already in Akatsuki and beating oro at 11

Not everything is going to work out perfectly...as it is obito would be at least 14 or older in all the flashbacks we have of tobi


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## insane111 (Aug 14, 2012)

Summers said:


> Has there been a thread merge.



Lol, I find it funny that the thread specifically asking for non-timeline related discussion got merged with this thread. Well done 

edit:
Also, yeah, the timeline has already been broken beyond any explanation 2 times that I know of, but that's no excuse to do it again. Especially since the details here are a lot more important than those instances.


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## wibisana (Aug 15, 2012)

the same timeline Itachi trolled oro in such youg age

and Oro give baby Jugo's seal to Chibi Anko


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## Yuna (Aug 15, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> If Tobi = Obito... Madara = Alive until at least as short time after Kakashi Gaiden.


Except Madara have died then, be because his Rinnegan was given to Nagato when Obito was but 0-4 years old!


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## Yuna (Aug 15, 2012)

Turrin said:


> People keep saying that Tobi = Obito can't work because Obito would be too young when Kurama's attack happened, but I think people are mistaken about this due to missing some facts.
> 
> Most people assume Kakashi and Obito were the same age in Kakashi Gaiden, but Kakashi graduated the academy at age 5, while Obito graduated the academy at age 9. Since Kakashi and Obito were put on the same team as each other we can assume it's very likely that they graduated the academy the same year. This means Obito was in-fact 4 years older than Kakashi.


You think Obito was 17? He was mightily short and young-looking for 17. What about Rin? How come Rin looked so young as well? Was she *also* a 17-or-so yearold who looked younger than she was?

There's also that photo of Minato and Kakashi's team as kids. They looked to be the same age. So Rin and obito have just always looked 4 years younger than they truly are?

Kakashi was already a chunin at age 6 and became a jounin shortly before the Kakashi Gaiden. I doubt this is a case of people grouped together due to graduating at the same time.


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## rob1out (Aug 15, 2012)

Edo-madara has implied that he died pretty much after that battle with the first though. that's my only gripe


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## Raventhal (Aug 15, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Except Madara have died then, be because his Rinnegan was given to Nagato when Obito was but 0-4 years old!



In Nagato's flashback he has panels showing him awaken his rinnegan.  You then have Tobi words saying he gave Nagato is own eyes.  

Obviously one cant be true.  Who is a more reliable narrator?  Who has their feat on panel?


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## Orochibuto (Aug 15, 2012)

Excellent work mods, bravo, bravissimo! You merged my thread when I was explicitilly asking for non timeline related evidence in the timeline thread


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## Yuna (Aug 15, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> In Nagato's flashback he has panels showing him awaken his rinnegan.  You then have Tobi words saying he gave Nagato is own eyes.
> 
> Obviously one cant be true.  Who is a more reliable narrator?  Who has their feat on panel?


Tobi... under the guise of Madara said that. So you're saying you think Nagato awakened the Rinnegan entirely on his own? Also, we didn't actually see Nagato awaken his Rinnegan because we never saw his eyes prior to that point. And who knows? Maybe the Rinnegan has to be awakened? Because, you know, Madara can turn them off at will and all? So his eyes were transplanted into Nagato in "Off"-mode, which necessitated a re-activation.


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## DoflaMihawk (Aug 15, 2012)

And to think most people laughed at this theory!


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## jacamo (Aug 15, 2012)

love it how people call the timeline argument "weak" when its one of the strongest arguments anyone can make in storytelling 

unless youre pulling for time travel or a hyperbolic eyeball chamber 



Descent of the Lion said:


> It would be if one existed. All we have are plot scraps held together with flimsy speculative sinew.



what the hell are you talking about?

they all have manga panels to back them up



insane111 said:


> Lol, I find it funny that the thread specifically asking for non-timeline related discussion got merged with this thread. Well done



my co-worker looked at me funny when i laughed at your comment 

well done


----------



## insane111 (Aug 15, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> In Nagato's flashback he has panels showing him awaken his rinnegan.  You then have Tobi words saying he gave Nagato is own eyes.
> 
> Obviously one cant be true.  Who is a more reliable narrator?  Who has their feat on panel?



So the real Madara just coincidentally found some random Uzumaki kid who already had an awakened Rinnegan? And why would Tobi be so determined to get Nagato's inferior eyes back, since you must think Tobi already had possession of Madara's the whole time?


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## Arya Stark (Aug 15, 2012)

Which time line holes we've experienced before? I don't feel like this would be our first time.
Just curious


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## Raventhal (Aug 15, 2012)

insane111 said:


> So the real Madara just coincidentally found some random Uzumaki kid who already had an awakened Rinnegan? And why would Tobi be so determined to get Nagato's inferior eyes back, since you must think Tobi already had possession of Madara's the whole time?



How do you know that Madara didn't implant base Uchiha eyes in Nagato to mature? I am sure Nagato would know if his eyes changed and had powers blossom.  

You guys are wrapped up so much in assumptions you give no flexibility to other theories because commonly accepted assumptions are now canon.  We don't even know for sure how Madara awakened his yet.

Suppose only real Uzumake/Senju can awaken rinnengan with Uchiha eyes and not die?  With Madara being a Uchiha figured out the sacrifice was his own life plus senju DNA to awaken Rinnengan.  And that's why he needed Nagato to bring him back.  

Anything  is possible.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> Which time line holes we've experienced before? I don't feel like this would be our first time.
> Just curious



The two I can recall are Itachi's flashback where he cut off Orochimaru's hand and Naruto failing to graduate from the ninja academy for "x" amount of years yet still being the same age as his graduating class.


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## bearzerger (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The two I can recall are Itachi's flashback where he cut off Orochimaru's hand and Naruto failing to graduate from the ninja academy for "x" amount of years yet still being the same age as his graduating class.


The latter at the very least is definitely not a problem with the timeline. For one we know that in previous years kids graduated far earlier than is the current norm nowadays. And with Naruto's impatient nature would it really come as such a surprise if he tried to take the graduation test years before his time. Also there may be the possibilty to repeat the test several times for all we know.


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## Lindsay (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The two I can recall are Itachi's flashback where he cut off Orochimaru's hand and Naruto failing to graduate from the ninja academy for "x" amount of years yet still being the same age as his graduating class.



How is Itachi defeating Orochimaru a plothole in the timeline?


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Lindsay said:


> How is Itachi defeating Orochimaru a plothole in the timeline?



Chiefly because of the uncertainty of when it took place.

I think people calculated that chronologically it happened when Itachi was 11, which is before the Uchiha Massacre, but I don't really know for sure since I've never bothered looking that deeply into it.

But if true Itachi being in Akatsuki years before the massacre creates a lot of issues and questions.


----------



## Grendel (Aug 15, 2012)

Lindsay said:


> How is Itachi defeating Orochimaru a plothole in the timeline?





First Tsurugi said:


> Chiefly because of the uncertainty of when it took place.
> 
> I think people calculated that chronologically it happened when Itachi was 11, which is before the Uchiha Massacre, but I don't really know for sure since I've never bothered looking that deeply into it.
> 
> But if true Itachi being in Akatsuki years before the massacre creates a lot of issues and questions.



Basically...he met tobi right before the massacre at 13 but according to an oro statement people put Itachi in akatski beating oro at 11...


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## Lindsay (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Chiefly because of the uncertainty of when it took place.
> 
> I think people calculated that chronologically it happened when Itachi was 11, which is before the Uchiha Massacre, but I don't really know for sure since I've never bothered looking that deeply into it.
> 
> But if true Itachi being in Akatsuki years before the massacre creates a lot of issues and questions.



Did it occur in the anime? There is no reference to age in the flashback of Itachi beating Orochimaru in Chapter 345.


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## Kaname Kuran (Aug 15, 2012)

NarutoxKakashi said:


> I'll just add that Kishimoto has never changed a single character's hairstyle throughout the manga, so it is highly likely that the long-haired Tobi and short-haired Tobi are actually two different persons acting as Tobi (with the short-haired one likely being Obito, at this point). However, at some point Madara died, and Obito is now the only one acting as Tobi.



*cough* *cough*


*Spoiler*: __ 






​


----------



## BatoKusanagi (Aug 15, 2012)

Aside from the time-line (and statements by Tobi, disregarded as lies if they don't fit with agree with Tobito), which honestly doesn't fit with "Tobito" theory, are people saying that Tobi having Obito eye (that somehow survived rocks falling on it) makes Obito? I would say that fact makes Tobi not Obito. Tobi/Obito saying he got his eye from himself doesn't make much sense. Also that statement sounded to me like Tobi was waiting for it. He apparently collects sharingans so that wouldn't be surprising aside from the fact that he was there.


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## Shrike (Aug 15, 2012)

It's funny how much are people able to stretch the story so it could fit their theories or whatever.

Like : Tobi could have altered his appearance when he shown himself to Kisame you know!

It's really laughable. Do you know how many chapters would it take Kishimoto to explain everything if he went in THAT direction? Not to mention, do you guys know how many readers don't know every statement that happened in the manga like you do since they don't hang around a naruto forum and just read it (and those readers forget many details)? Imagine if Kishimoto started explaining all that. It could go like this:

"So guys, you remember that time when he did this? Yeah, he transformed to appear like Madara to fool Kisame." (readers : uh, I vaguely remember that, but whatever). "And do you know why he told he gave Nagato the eyes? Because he actually didn't, the timeline went like this..." or "You know when he said he waited a long time for the moment? Well, it wasn't THAT long you know, it was one year. Obito has grown too, into a man capable of controlling the Kyuubi and who appeared like he knew a LOT, and plus, when he fought his own teacher, he showed skill but he didn't know how his sensei's jutsu works exactly. Just chillax, I'll explain it all."

The most pathetic thing about this forum is that people keep saying that things like the timeline doesn't matter, and that Tobi was saying to Konan that he was Madara when they were alone, or that he told Kabuto he fought the First after Kabuto told him he knew, or that Zetsu calling him a retard of whatever is okay because, you know man, he was telling that to US, the readers, to throw us off!

There is no excuse for terrible writing mentioned above. It's absolutely Kishimoto's fail. There will hardly be a good cover of the timeline even if it's not Obito, let alone if it is. I am unsure if it will ever be shown why did the masked man appear with both short and long hair.


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## posternojutsu (Aug 15, 2012)

BatoKusanagi said:


> Aside from the time-line (and statements by Tobi, disregarded as lies if they don't fit with agree with Tobito), which honestly doesn't fit with "Tobito" theory, are people saying that Tobi having Obito eye (that somehow survived rocks falling on it) makes Obito? I would say that fact makes Tobi not Obito. *Tobi/Obito saying he got his eye from himself doesn't make much sense. Also that statement sounded to me like Tobi was waiting for it. He apparently collects sharingans so that wouldn't be surprising aside from the fact that he was there*.



Could be....but you could also take the line (IMO) as him saying he upgraded to the Sharingan that day. Uchiha are not born with an active Sharingan they must gain it...so one of them saying i got these eyes on such and such a date/place would make sense in that context (again IMO).


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## ueharakk (Aug 15, 2012)

It just doesn't work out, and the last chapter further disprove the theory that Tobi is Obito.


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## Talis (Aug 15, 2012)

I like it how people thinks that everything must makes sense for the theory.
If everything makes sense already whats the point in revealing the masked man?
Tobito has a tons of hints and just a time issue, so does the time issue destroy the Tobito theory?
Of course not there are 1000 hints already with just the time issue, when the mask goes off it will be explained obviously.

Just tell me which of the Tobi candidate has as much as hints as Tobito's.
And i am talking about hints not random fanfics.


----------



## Haloman (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Chiefly because of the uncertainty of when it took place.
> 
> I think people calculated that chronologically it happened when Itachi was 11, which is before the Uchiha Massacre, but I don't really know for sure since I've never bothered looking that deeply into it.
> 
> But if true Itachi being in Akatsuki years before the massacre creates a lot of issues and questions.



The problem is that in Part 2, Itachi is 21. It's in Part 2 that we hear someone in Akatsuki say that "Orochimaru left the organization 10 years ago." Itachi and Oro were in the organization at the same time, so people doing the simplest of math say that Itachi must have been 11.

The problem is that people don't realize that Kishi writes his characters very very realistically. I know people will balk at this and laugh, but it's the truth. Most authors have their characters as little more than speakers for canonical narration. Kishi's not like that, though. The things his characters say can be lies, truths, opinions, rumors, and even colloquial expressions. Like how Kakashi said that "It was said that Sharingan came from Byakugan." That doesn't make it truth. Just Kakashi repeating what he's heard. It's the same thing with "10 years ago."

I was on a softball team 7 years ago. Often times, I'll say 10 years, just because it's easier to round, and I forget the exact number sometimes. Even now, 7 might be wrong. It's close enough to 10 for all intents and purposes. Just like saying I started playing 20 years ago. That's probably not right, but close enough.

And so someone in Akatsuki said Oro left the organization 10 years ago. That doesn't necessarily mean it was 10 to the dot. They've been busy with other things. Do you really think they've been keeping track of exactly how long Orochimaru had been gone?

Itachi was 13 when he became an ANBU Captain. That's according to Kakashi (and also not necessarily true). Basically, though, we don't know the exact truth. But the numbers are fudgeable to an extent that they can easily work out without any plotholes. I'm inclined to think the 13 number is correct for Itachi simply because Sasuke repeats numbers that would match up with that fact. So maybe after becoming a captain, the massacre happened, and then he went to Akatsuki. Shortly after, maybe Oro attacked him and lost. And so then Oro left the organization 8 years ago. That's close to 10, right? Which makes sense if you assume people speak colloquially and with idioms. Which they do.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 16, 2012)

ueharakk said:


> It just doesn't work out, and the last chapter further disprove the theory that Tobi is Obito.



Son, I'm afraid that you don't understand what the word 'disprove' means, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

How does Chapter 597 disprove Tobito?


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