# Kakashi vs Itachi



## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout

*Distance:* 25 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full

This used to be pretty hot, thought I'd bring it back.


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

I think itachi wins 

I am not one to believe a single MS jutsu can trump susanoo


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## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I think itachi wins
> 
> I am not one to believe a single MS jutsu can trump susanoo



That's not all Kakashi has though, his stamina is much better than Itachi's and so is his Ninjutsu arsenal.


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## ImSerious (Mar 6, 2016)

I think this fight is as close to 50/50 as it's gonna get. I see multiple feints happening, with Kakashi more likely to come out on top because he's Kakashi.

And if Itachi brings out Susano he's just begging for a 1 way ticket to kamuiland.


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## Yoko (Mar 6, 2016)

Kakashi's "single Mangekyo" jutsu is two in one - long range offense to warp targets at a distance and supplementary Hiraishin-like self warping.  The nature of Kamui allows it to bypass Susano'os durability and / or allow Kakashi to teleport himself inside of it and attack Itachi's back.


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## Finalbeta (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachi wins it


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> That's not all Kakashi has though, his stamina is much better than Itachi's and so is his Ninjutsu arsenal.



The rest of Kakashi jutsu are very very easily handled by itschi MS jutsu or other skill set 

Clones , itachi got clones which consume less chakra 

Genjutsu . Itachi got better 

Cqc skills itachi is better in all categories 

Feinting itachi is better 

There isn't a single thing Kakashi does better especially when you include MS


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 6, 2016)

To answer the thread, it really depends on how Kakashi uses his MS, if it's solely defensive then he'll probably lose. However, if he uses it offensively (like teleporting within Susano'o, if that's possible) then yeah he has a chance to win. If not, the deciding factor between Kakashi and Itachi has always been Susano'o/Totsuka. It's a gap that really puts the match in Itachi's favor, if you restrict Susano'o, then Kakashi/Itachi is a solid coin toss.





Icegaze said:


> The rest of Kakashi jutsu are very very easily handled by itschi MS jutsu or other skill set
> 
> Clones , itachi got clones which consume less chakra
> 
> ...


All the red in the quote is bullshit.*Clones* ― Kakashi can use multiple variants of elemental clones (some which consume less chakra and some more). So Kakashi has clone category down, especially since he's executed it against Itachi couple of times successfully.

*CQC/Taijutsu* ― Has Itachi ever used a sword? Channeled an element to his sword? Both are rated to be equals in taijutsu but Kakashi's been training with Gai who is a taijutsu expert and has better feats with a variety of weapons, so he gets the go ahead here.

*Feinting* ― Kakashi's feints have been executed and fooled exceptionally high level shinobi (e.g. Pain/Nagato, Itachi himself, Kisame and etc.). Itachi doesn't use feints as much as Kakashi does, Itachi's go to distraction is genjutsu, which he does have superiority in. But when it comes to clone feints, aside from Naruto, Kakashi is a close second.

*MS Kamui > Amaterasu* ― You can escape Amaterasu and many characters have found ways around it. You cannot escape Kamui, at least not from Kakashi after he mastered it (e.g. War Arc mastery). In the past sure, when he fought Deidara it was possible.​If you were to remove MS from the equation from both shinobi, Kakashi would have Itachi over-matched in terms of skill, feinting and tactics. Itachi has better genjutsu but Kakashi has better ninjutsu and clone feints. He got Itachi several times with clones in the past, when he was less skilled and sharp. To think that a better version of Kakashi wouldn't is a miscalculation.


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> All the red in the quote is bullshit.*Clones* ― Kakashi can use multiple variants of elemental clones (some which consume less chakra and some more). So Kakashi has clone category down, especially since he's executed it against Itachi couple of times successfully.​






yes multiple variants such as water clone and raiton clone. thats it. 

itachi has also successfully damaged itachi via a clone feint. water clone which is the only other variant kakashi can use which doesnt consume more chakra than itachi clone also coincidentally has a maximum range it can be away from its user. read up on water clone




> *CQC/Taijutsu* ― Has Itachi ever used a sword? Channeled an element to his sword? Both are rated to be equals in taijutsu but Kakashi's been training with Gai who is a taijutsu expert and has better feats with a variety of weapons, so he gets the go ahead here.



itachi has channeled an element through multiple shiruken.

lol that logic is weak. training with gai so he is better in taijutsu 

i used that one once myself

taijutsu = shiruken jutsu, speed, hand to hand combat 

itachi exceeds kakashi in speed, by feats, exceeds him in shiruken jutsu by feats and also exceeds him in hand to hand by feats


> *Feinting* ― Kakashi's feints have been executed and fooled exceptionally high level shinobi (e.g. Pain/Nagato, Itachi himself, Kisame and etc.). Itachi doesn't use feints as much as Kakashi does, Itachi's go to distraction is genjutsu, which he does have superiority in. But when it comes to clone feints, aside from Naruto, Kakashi is a close second.



kakashi has never fooled someone on SM kabuto level. kakashi fooled deva path who is not equal to nagato in any way shape or form. would be like saying a madara clone= madara

what itachi uses feints in every single match he fight




> *MS Kamui > Amaterasu* ― You can escape Amaterasu and many characters have found ways around it. You cannot escape Kamui, at least not from Kakashi after he mastered it (e.g. War Arc mastery). In the past sure, when he fought Deidara it was possible.





> If you were to remove MS from the equation from both shinobi, Kakashi would have Itachi over-matched in terms of skill, feinting and tactics. Itachi has better genjutsu but Kakashi has better ninjutsu and clone feints. He got Itachi several times with clones in the past, when he was less skilled and sharp. To think that a better version of Kakashi wouldn't is a miscalculation.



and susanoo > than both

no need to remove MS. itachi camps in susanoo and kakashi is effectively screwed


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> yes multiple variants such as water clone and raiton clone. thats it.
> 
> itachi has also successfully damaged itachi via a clone feint. water clone which is the only other variant* kakashi can use which doesnt consume more chakra than itachi clone also coincidentally has a maximum range it can be away from its user.* read up on water clone


Thanks for agreeing, that's what I said in my post. I don't know why I need to read up on water clone, because you made the jump to think that Kakashi didn't. 



> itachi has channeled an element through multiple shiruken.
> 
> lol that logic is weak. training with gai so he is better in taijutsu
> 
> ...


Both Kakashi and Itachi are rated at 4.5, however Kakashi has shown more with his kinjutsu than Itachi has and has shown mastery of several different weapons.



> itachi exceeds kakashi in speed, by feats, exceeds him in shiruken jutsu by feats and also exceeds him in hand to hand by feats


He did in their first encounter, when Kakashi was physically slower than him but Kakashi managed to keep up. This time around, Kakashi isn't as slow and gained speed through his training/Part 2.



> kakashi has never fooled someone on SM kabuto level. kakashi fooled deva path who is not equal to nagato in any way shape or form. would be like saying a madara clone= madara


Kakashi pulled a clone feint nearly every time he was in battle and he fooled Deva Path which is Pain's main body. 



> and susanoo > than both
> 
> no need to remove MS. itachi camps in susanoo and kakashi is effectively screwed


Still doesn't change the fact that Kakashi's Kamui > Itachi's Amaterasu. You stated in your post, that Kakashi's MS has nothing over Itachi's, which is clearly wrong.


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

> Ryuzaki said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for agreeing, that's what I said in my post. I don't know why I need to read up on water clone, because you made the jump to think that Kakashi didn't.
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

The only time Itachi didn't use a clone feint in a sustained fight was when he was _already a clone_. Against every other opponent that wasn't paneled by him: Kakashi, Bee, Kabuto, Sasuke, etc. He used a hyped speed-based clone feint.

As for the match, I think it's commonly accepted that Itachi is portrayed as more skilled than Kakashi in technical skill and abilities, but that Kakashi has a greater variety of shown jutsu and elements (but Kakashi's had more screen-time..)



			
				Ryuzaki said:
			
		

> CQC/Taijutsu ― Has Itachi ever used a sword?



As an ANBU assassin, and against Sage Kabuto.


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## ImSerious (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> (but Kakashi's had more screen-time..)


How come you never say that in itachi vs minato threads?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> How come you never say that in itachi vs minato threads?



People don't say "Itachi has more elemental ninjutsu" like they do here


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## Six (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> That's not all Kakashi has though, his stamina is much better than Itachi's and so is his Ninjutsu arsenal.



Didn't stop him from shitting his pants and getting wrecked by Itachi the first time and plainly saying he needed Naruto and the others the second time. You guys overhype the hell out of this stamina crap. Change your name.


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## ImSerious (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> People don't say "Itachi has more elemental ninjutsu" like they do here


People say Itachi has more speed feats than Minato 

I bet if Minato had more panel time he would have more genjutsu feats than Itachi


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2016)

Full knowledge makes Itachi frown all the way to Kamui-town.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

^ It's a clone. Kakashi's weakened. Itachi takes him out.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachi can't make clones faster than Kakashi can open his eye.

Kamui is a stupid jutsu by feats and portrayal, and in both ways trumps Itachi.  It's stupid enough that it passes my check of, "Would Kishi actually draw this?"  It seems like he would, or he'd have to make the situation such that kamui is off the table, or by the opposing side having kamui.  Which wouldn't happen here so he gets nommed.  

Beef egg fu yung teriaki chicken.


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## Bonly (Mar 6, 2016)

I'd favor Itachi more times then not. They would have a good match but with Itachi's jutsu speed, clone feints, genjutsu, and MS jutsu he should overwhelm Kakashi. Kakashi's only shot is Kamui but with him needing to get close to get a good shot and Itachi having knowing of it, it's gonna be to hard for him to take out Itachi first imo


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Itachi can't make clones faster than Kakashi can open his eye.
> 
> Kamui is a stupid jutsu by feats and portrayal, and in both ways trumps Itachi.  It's stupid enough that it passes my check of, "Would Kishi actually draw this?"  It seems like he would, or he'd have to make the situation such that kamui is off the table, or by the opposing side having kamui.  Which wouldn't happen here so he gets nommed.
> 
> Beef egg fu yung teriaki chicken.



Yeah I guess if Kakashi uses Kamui immediately he wins, but Itachi could probably tag him with black fire in the same timespan too.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Yeah I guess if Kakashi uses Kamui immediately he wins, but Itachi could probably tag him with black fire in the same timespan too.



One of the most awkward conversation over a chapter I had was with Komnenos, when he said, "I think kamui is broken.  Like, not just mechanically broken.  I think it's actually this good in Kishi's mind."

If it helps I think that with MS restricted for both sides Itachi wins out over Kakashi, which imo is the true and not lame .1 second victory.


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## LightningForce (Mar 6, 2016)

Kakashi has shown better taijutsu feats and Itachi has the edge in handseal speed and shurikenjutsu,  although neither of those things are enough to take down the other. Both can very well read each other's movements and trick one another until it comes to a stalemate. Itachi's genjutsu bar Tsukiyomi won't be enough to take down Kakashi anymore, since he was able to match Obito in genjutsu himself. He'd break out of regular genjutsu before Itachi tried anything further. Without MS, it can go either way, but I'd favor Kakashi more than not because I believe he can outplay and outlast Itachi in the end.

So, it very well comes down to how they utilize their respective MS jutsu. Susano'o is broken, no doubt, but so is Kamui. Kakashi can very well take out Itachi along with Susano'o if it's not manifested as V4. Amaterasu flames can be warped by Kamui. Don't know how resistant Kakashi will be to Tsuki, but I'd say more so than his first experience with it.


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## Santoryu (Mar 6, 2016)

Kakashi _is_ stronger. Not by much. But the war arc has cemented his position as Itachi's superior, in my opinion. It's true that Kakashi's had more panel time so we've seen more of his arsenal, but at the same time, we've seen more of his weaknesses too; when he was first introduced he was comparable to Zabuza. Only an elite jonin. Itachi, on the other hand, was superior to the _Sannin_. Kakashi's rapid growth in part 2 was inevitable considering his role in the story, and the fact that he was granted the _Mangekyo Sharingan_ which was on par with Itachi's dojutsu despite Kamui being at its infancy. Part 1 implied Kakashi would always be second best due to his lack of _Uchiha blood_. Not his skill. Obviously Kishimoto had other plans. 


We all know why Kakashi doesn't finish off his opponents immediately. It's always been the same reason. Plot. If Kakashi warped every opponent from the get go battles would be anticlimactic and there would be no need for Naruto. In the war arc we finally got to see what Kakashi can do when he's not restricted by plot.


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## Drake (Mar 6, 2016)

This depends on how fast Kakashi can warp large objects like Susano'o. I remember Kakashi had a lot of Kamui feats towards the end of the series, but I glazed over most of the ending because it was so bad.

If Kakashi is fast enough to warp Itachi away, then he wins with low difficulty. If not, I would say Itachi wins most of the time.


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

Either opponent can win with or without full knowledge. No matter the knowledge conditions, Itachi's going to be able to deduce Kamui's range through Bunshin feints and form a plan to prevent Kamui GG from happening, and likewise, Kakashi would be able to deduce Amaterau's range via Bunshin feint tactics. 

One factor that a lot of people tend to neglect is that, depending upon which version of Kakashi is used, *he needs to be up close* in order to use Kamui. 

Itachi, both in War Arc and when his vision had faltered in the fight with Sasuke, was capable of using Amaterasu from longer ranges than Kakashi--who noted that he needed to be up close to use Kamui accurately by the time he had mastered the jutsu. Kakashi seemed to take longer to perfect the S/T barrier created by using Kamui than it took for Itachi (or Sasuke, for that matter) to perfect Amaterasu, which would make sense because Kamui is an objectively better and more complex jutsu that Amaterasu and Kamui is also a borrowed power. What that means is that Kakashi suffered a greater loss of vision in proportion to his mastery of Kamui (assuming that the rate at which the Mangekyou loses its light is comparable in Itachi and Kakashi). Given this difference, if you were to take both Itachi and Kakashi in their prime states in terms of Mangekyou mastery *and* vision, I think that Itachi would be better off.

Itachi also holds a physical movement speed advantage over Kakashi, and I don't see why Kakashi would be able to see through Itachi's Bunshin feints any better than Sage Mode Kabuto, Hebi Sasuke, or EMS Sasuke were able to. Kakashi may have a stamina advantage over Itachi just looking at feats, but I doubt that stamina would be a deciding factor in this match up, because Itachi wouldn't need to use Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Susano'o wastefully here as he did in his fight with Sasuke, and either opponent is as good as dead if they're distracted by a Bunshin long enough to be taken out by the Mangekyou. The biggest advantage that Kakashi has over Itachi aside from versatility is the fact that Kamui bypasses Itachi's defenses (Susano'o). I _don't_ think that Kakashi can "teleport inside of" Susano'o, because it's a chakra construct--you can't materialize in space that is already being occupied by something else. However, Kakashi should certainly be able to Kamui-snipe Itachi through Susano'o if given the opportunity.

All things considered, I would say that Itachi is more likely to win due to having a greater number potent offensive options (Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano'o limbs, and Totsuka) with the Mangekyou than Kakashi does (although Susano'o is defensively useless here due to Kamui) in addition to crucial statistical advantages in speed.

*Itachi wins more times than not with high difficulty.*​


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## Dr. White (Mar 7, 2016)

Itachi would win. As Saru said he simply has a more vast array of deadly options to chose from and tailorcoat to situations on a higher level than Kakashi does with one trump card. Itachi is not getting outdueled off bat either with full knowledge and his clone feint ability. If Itachi can clone feint faster than Sasuke's sharingan and Kabuto's sensing I don't see him not being able to avoid Kakashi. 

I also don't think he would resort to kamui. He knew Itachi had killer genjutsu, speed, clones, and Tsukuyomi (and probably Ama since he and Jiraiya talked about akatsuki together) and didn't try it vs Shouten Itachi. To my recollection he's only ever done that with Obito who he thought was Madara.


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## LightningForce (Mar 7, 2016)

Thing is that clone feints could happen at any time during the battle, as soon as the opponent is out of your line of sight, even if for just a moment. Just because Itachi was able to do it to SM Kabuto (which was actually done while Kabuto was distracted by a coordination effort) doesn't mean Kakashi wouldn't be able to, since he also did it to Deva and Asura path, both enhanced by Rinnegan shared vision. The feat against Sasuke is legit, though, so Itachi can definitely set up a clone in the midst of a kunai or shuriken or taijutsu exchange. But if he tries to use ranged ninjutsu against Kakashi, that gives K-man the opportunity to create clones as well.

Kakashi hinted that he had the Mangekyo to throw caution to Itachi using his MS jutsu by implying he had his own, because Kakashi could also possibly counter it with his at-the-time yet unknown MS jutsu. And he probably knew that Itachi wouldn't immediately resort to that since it is an MS jutsu and thus requires a comparable amount of chakra/stamina. So if Itachi is bringing out his Mangekyo to the playing table, then you can be sure Kakashi will do the same.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2016)

Itachi is superior in every single aspect that is relevant to the game. He has more hype and was portrayed on a much higher level.
I am not sure what made this topic so hot honeslty. 
Itachi dominates.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 7, 2016)

Kakashi has made a lot of improvements and showed new jutsu through the series and increased his skill and level or competitiveness in all aspects, even past Itachi's death and stagnation.  He also became god. The question has always been if it was enough to cross the gap, and it's a good question.


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Yeah I guess if Kakashi uses Kamui immediately he wins, but Itachi could probably tag him with black fire in the same timespan too.



Then itachi uses susanoo and remains in play 
Kamui ain't sendin all of susanoo to box land


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## Saru (Mar 7, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Then itachi uses susanoo and remains in play
> Kamui ain't sendin all of susanoo to box land




Kakashi doesn't need to target the entire thing. He just needs to target the user. Why do you think that Susano'o is immune to Kamui warping? I'm just curious. I used to think that Kamui wasn't broken enough to do that. Then Kakashi warped away Gudoudama, Hachibi-sized targets, and Gedo Mazo, and all of my arguments against Kamui working on Susano'o sort of evaporated.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kakashi doesn't need to target the entire thing. He just needs to target the user. Why do you think that Susano'o is immune to Kamui warping? I'm just curious. I used to think that Kamui wasn't broken enough to do that. Then Kakashi warped away Gudoudama, Hachibi-sized targets, and Gedo Mazo, and all of my arguments against Kamui working on Susano'o sort of evaporated.​



I think Kakashi needs to be able to project his chakra to his destined target to be able to open a barrier. Susano'o may actually act as an obscuration and prevent him from targeting the user through it.
Also Kakashi needed to charge up to warp Gedo's head and he immediately collapsed afterwards warping Naruto's clone, even with the war arc power inflation. 
I don't think he can casually warp things around SusanoO's size.


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## Itachі (Mar 7, 2016)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Didn't stop him from shitting his pants and getting wrecked by Itachi the first time and plainly saying he needed Naruto and the others the second time. You guys overhype the hell out of this stamina crap. Change your name.



This is War Arc Kakashi, comparing him to his earlier incarnations is moronic. What stamina crap? I never said that he has amazing stamina, just that his stamina is superior to Itachi's. Sorry if it hurt your feelings though.


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## ImSerious (Mar 7, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think Kakashi needs to be able to project his chakra to his destined target to be able to open a barrier.


i think you're making stuff up.


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## Saru (Mar 7, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think Kakashi needs to be able to project his chakra to his destined target to be able to open a barrier. Susano'o may actually act as an obscuration and prevent him from targeting the user through it.
> Also Kakashi needed to charge up to warp Gedo's head and he immediately collapsed afterwards warping Naruto's clone, even with the war arc power inflation.
> I don't think he can casually warp things around SusanoO's size.




So, I agree that Kakashi wouldn't be able to create the Kamui barrier inside of Susano'o. That was the reason why I argued that Kamui wouldn't be able to beat Susano'o in  before Kamui was shown warping away bijuu. I don't think that Kakashi can directly target the user of Susano'o while they're inside of it. That would be like using Kamui on a target while looking through a window, or like Kakashi using Kamui on Mei while looking at her through her transparent Water Dragon, which I don't think Kakashi would be capable of doing either.

However, Susano'o obstructing the "ideal" parameters of the barrier ("ideal" parameters being directly around the Susano'o user) shouldn't matter, because the barrier sucks anything immediately nearby into it, so Susano'o and the user would just get sucked into that barrier regardless. If Kakashi opens a barrier in front of Itachi, the portion of Susano'o that is in front of Itachi would get sucked in. Then, the barrier would continue to suck in whatever else is within its immediate range *radially inward* towards that barrier. Itachi would be much closer to the initial Kamui barrier than the head of Susano'o (because the distance between Itachi and the head of Susano'o is much larger than the distance between Itachi and the outer armor of Susano'o), so he would get sucked in before the head of Susano'o did. Therefore, Kakashi wouldn't need to target all of Susano'o--he could just open a barrier in front of the part of Susano'o where its user is.

Kakashi (under strain) was already able to suck in a large explosion with Kamui back when he was still a novice with the Mangekyou.


*Spoiler*: __ 










But I had thought that maybe it would take Kakashi too long to create a barrier large enough to get through Susano'o. Then things like this happened:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Kakashi warped a massive Gedou Mazou arm with Kamui (and no apparent buildup), so unless Itachi can attack Kakashi mid-Kamui warp quickly enough to cancel the jutsu, Kakashi should be able to warp Itachi. However, if you look at those scans, Kakashi was standing _right_ in front of Gedou Mazou (because he was pretty much blind at that point), so if Kakashi wants to replicate that feat against Itachi, he's going to have to be *a)* very close to him and susceptible to Totsuka and *b)* blind in his left eye. That's why I think a Bunshin feint + Kamui combo against Itachi would be absolutely necessary.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> So, I agree that Kakashi wouldn't be able to create the Kamui barrier inside of Susano'o. That was the reason why I argued that Kamui wouldn't be able to beat Susano'o in  before Kamui was shown warping away bijuu. I don't think that Kakashi can directly target the user of Susano'o while they're inside of it. That would be like using Kamui on a target while looking through a window, or like Kakashi using Kamui on Mei while looking at her through her transparent Water Dragon, which I don't think Kakashi would be capable of doing either.
> 
> However, Susano'o obstructing the "ideal" parameters of the barrier ("ideal" parameters being directly around the Susano'o user) shouldn't matter, because the barrier sucks anything immediately nearby into it, so Susano'o and the user would just get sucked into that barrier regardless. If Kakashi opens a barrier in front of Itachi, the portion of Susano'o that is in front of Itachi would get sucked in. Then, the barrier would continue to suck in whatever else is within its immediate range *radially inward* towards that barrier. Itachi would be much closer to the initial Kamui barrier than the head of Susano'o (because the distance between Itachi and the head of Susano'o is much larger than the distance between Itachi and the outer armor of Susano'o), so he would get sucked in before the head of Susano'o did. Therefore, Kakashi wouldn't need to target all of Susano'o--he could just open a barrier in front of the part of Susano'o where its user is.
> 
> ...



I'm not buying the Kamui GG argument unless Kakashi can pull it off in the heat of the battle against a mobile target, which he hasn't done so far. 

Kakashi used Kamui almost all the time when he wasn't targeted by his opponents, and most of those times he was not a frontliner. 

To be able to Kamui GG Itachi, he needs to be in a sniping position, he needs Itachi to be immobile and possibly not in a position to counter attack.
But then, most characters with a decent long range jutsu would be able to finish their opponent when granted with similar conditions, in other words its being extremely generous.



ImSerious said:


> i think you're making stuff up.



Common sense mate.


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## Saru (Mar 7, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm not buying the Kamui GG argument unless Kakashi can pull it off in the heat of the battle against a mobile target, which he hasn't done so far.




Bunshin feint tactics can put Kakashi in a position to do just that. He could try to repeat this:





Only he would use Doton to get behind Itachi and use Kamui on Itachi from his backside.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kakashi doesn't need to target the entire thing. He just needs to target the user. Why do you think that Susano'o is immune to Kamui warping? I'm just curious. I used to think that Kamui wasn't broken enough to do that. Then Kakashi warped away Gudoudama, Hachibi-sized targets, and Gedo Mazo, and all of my arguments against Kamui working on Susano'o sort of evaporated.​



Targeting the user would mean only a portion of susanoo would be wrapped and the user safe . Juudara wasn't pulled in by Kamui only the portion of Kamui Kakashi snipped 

Kakashi can't use Kamui quicker than itachi can use susanoo 

Think of it like how he wrapped away the goudama when juudara covered himself with it 

Same thing here 

Itachi will simply reform the bit that got wrapped away and Kakashi is screwed


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## Itachі (Mar 7, 2016)

Kakashi should be able to warp Itachi along with Susano'o, though he shouldn't have to be very close because Kakashi isn't near blind here. But I don't think Kakashi can get it off in the midst of battle against someone like Itachi without an decent plan.


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## Clowe (Mar 7, 2016)

If this is pre War arc, Itachi dominates.

If this is War arc Kakashi, Kamui GG, it doesn't matter if Itachi's using Susanoo, the S/T Barrier appears directly on the target, it works by line of sight, if he can see him through Susanoo (it's translucent), Itachi gets warped, and he ain't Minato, he ain't dodging it.


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## RikudouSusanoo (Mar 7, 2016)

I would say Itachi most of the times but it can be Kamui GG if Kakashi can catch Itachi first. But what does he have against Tsukuyomi?

Itachi has a very big offensive arsenal with Amaterasu, Susanoo and of course his Gen Jutsu feats. So Itachi wins because of Gen Jutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> Bunshin feint tactics can put Kakashi in a position to do just that. He could try to repeat this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then he realizes he kamui'd a bunshin and gets blindsided.

I also don't buy the bunshin GG argument against a guy like Itachi who is a master bunshin user himself.


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## Mercurial (Mar 7, 2016)

Itachi was far above Part 1 Kakashi, no doubt. 

Start of Part 2 Kakashi would give Itachi an extremely hard and risking battle, and Pain Arc Kakashi was portrayed as above Itachi, and had the feats to defeat Sick Itachi for sure.

War Arc Kakashi with 1 MS is far, far above Itachi. He has better feats in everything, speed, reflexes, ninjutsu, taijutsu/CQC, stamina and what not. War Arc Kakashi appears lile a chakra beast, compared to Itachi, just to say. Itachi is only better in genjutsu, and that's not gonna matter when Itachi himself acknowledged in Part 1 already how he could defeat Kakashi only with MS genjutsu, as 3T wouldn't be enough, and Kakashi got much more powerful from that time; and he isn't falling for Tsukuyomi, with a Kage Bunshin feint he already negged Itachi's trying to put him in a genjutsu, that's canon (Shoten Itachi had the same skills and stats the original Itachi had, just less chakra hence he was less powerful as he couldn't use MS). Kakashi's long range Kamui is much, much, much faster than Amaterasu, can warp Itachi together with his Susanoo or warp Itachi in his Susanoo as well, and can be used without meeting Itachi's eyesight and falling in Tsukuyomi. Not to mention that Kakashi can also suddenly teleport in Itachi's Susanoo and go Raikiri on his face.

DMS Rikudo Kakashi... well make that version of Kakashi vs 1000 Itachi and Kakashi would still win. Enough said.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2016)

Being that delusional. Jesus christ.

Pain arc Kakashi was portrayed way below the Sannin, how can he be possibly above Itachi ? Seriously dude, get off those drugs.


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## Mercurial (Mar 7, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Being that delusional. Jesus christ.
> 
> Pain arc Kakashi was portrayed way below the Sannin, how can he be possibly above Itachi ? Seriously dude, get off those drugs.



Post Immortals Arc and Pre Pain Arc Kakashi was the one who said that defeating an Akatsuki member and capturing him alive was much more difficult than defeating him and killing him. And still, he was confident to defeat and capture both Itachi and Kisame with a squad made of him, Pre SM Naruto and... some fodders (Yamato, Sakura, Sai, Shino, Kiba and Hinata, all basically irrelevant against either Itachi or Kisame).

And portrayed below the Sannin? Lol. Nagato sent Animal Path to fight Jiraiya, and then Preta and Human. He sent the Six Paths to kill him, but that was unnecessary, completely. Deva Path never really fought Jiraiya. Kakashi fought Deva from the start and Nagato felt the need to send Asura too as a backup. Without Mangekyo and with the support of some fodders, Kakashi cornered Pain's strongest body and could have killed him. If Deva went all out with CT, Kakashi would have warped him with Kamui.

Nagato through Deva expressed much praise and respect for Kakashi's strength. When he met Tsunade, he only talked shit about her, not even considering her. 

That should say something to you.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 7, 2016)

The biggest thing people are overlooking is the build up of the battle which will be a tie for the most part (ninjutsu/genjutsu/taijutsu). The deciding factor between them will be the mangekyou sharingan. However, from the way this match pans out, I could see both of these guys running out of gas before they have a chance to resort to their higher trump cards. 

I don't see any scenario where Kakashi will use Kamui right off the bat, it's not in his nature to do so unless he's being overwhelmed (i.e. Bijuu Dama vs. Kakashi/Gai) so in this scenario, that won't happen until Itachi uses Susano'o.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Post Immortals Arc and Pre Pain Arc Kakashi was the one who said that defeating an Akatsuki member and capturing him alive was much more difficult than defeating him and killing him. And still, he was confident to defeat and capture both Itachi and Kisame with a squad made of him, Pre SM Naruto and... some fodders (Yamato, Sakura, Sai, Shino, Kiba and Hinata, all basically irrelevant against either Itachi or Kisame).
> 
> And portrayed below the Sannin? Lol. Nagato sent Animal Path to fight Jiraiya, and then Preta and Human. He sent the Six Paths to kill him, but that was unnecessary, completely. Deva Path never really fought Jiraiya. Kakashi fought Deva from the start and Nagato felt the need to send Asura too as a backup. Without Mangekyo and with the support of some fodders, Kakashi cornered Pain's strongest body and could have killed him. If Deva went all out with CT, Kakashi would have warped him with Kamui.
> 
> ...



I didn't read your post but seeing you typed in a couple of paragraphs, you probably disagreed with me.

When Kakashi was fighting Deva + Asura he went "did Jiraya fight 6 of these ?" Eventhough it wasn't exactly true, from a portrayal standpoint, it was Kakashi's admission of inferiority to Jiraiya.

Summit arc Kakashi would get destroyed by Sasuke if Sasuke didn't gas out, he could barely warp his arrows and then couldn't run straight. If Sasuke followed up, he'd be dead.

War arc Kakashi doesn't have a single accomplishment that places him around Itachi's ballpark in terms of hype or portrayal. He was mainly a support character, hiding behind frontliners and going turret mode with his Kamui and nothing more. 

Its true that Kakashi improved over the course of the manga, but lets not get delusional here. Kakashi wasn't even portrayed on Sannin level, let alone Itachi's.


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't read your post but seeing you typed in a couple of paragraphs, you probably disagreed with me.
> 
> When Kakashi was fighting Deva + Asura he went "did Jiraya fight 6 of these ?" Eventhough it wasn't exactly true, from a portrayal standpoint, it was Kakashi's admission of inferiority to Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



Admission of nothing, since it was painfully false. Out of the fact that in the end Jiraiya actually fought all the Six Paths, and got killed with them not even remotely going all out, since Deva Path didn't even start to use his gravitational powers, as Kakashi didn't have any info on that from Fukasaku.

Again. Nagato talked shit about Jiraiya when he met him, sent Animal Path to fight him, and then Preta and Human. He sent the Six Paths to kill him, but that was unnecessary, completely. Deva Path never really fought Jiraiya. When Nagato met Kakashi, he immediately praised him. Kakashi fought Deva from the start and Nagato felt the need to send Asura too as a backup. Without Mangekyo and with the support of some fodders, Kakashi cornered Pain's strongest body and could have killed him. Without using his trump card, the Mangekyo, Kakashi performed very very well against Pain's strongest body, while with his trump card, SM, Jiraiya admitted he was going to die against just Preta, Animal and Human. Against Kakashi, if Deva went all out with CT, Kakashi would have warped him with Kamui, while SM Jiraiya would have died.

Nagato through Deva expressed much praise and respect for Kakashi's strength. When he met Tsunade, he only talked shit about her, not even considering her. 

Not to mention that the .

I hope you're joking. Kakashi didn't want to kill Sasuke, until the end when he understood he could have never TnJ him. His long range Kamui proved to be much faster than Sasuke's Susanoo arrow, if he wanted to kill him he would have just warped before he could do anything. Especially if Kakashi followed up in the moment while Sasuke was suddenly feeling pain for his eyes. So it's completely the opposite.

Butthurt and denial won't change what Kishimoto did draw, sadly.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2016)

Dude you are completely delusional. Anyone here can tell you that. Just ask em.


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2016)

Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## Icegaze (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Post Immortals Arc and Pre Pain Arc Kakashi was the one who said that defeating an Akatsuki member and capturing him alive was much more difficult than defeating him and killing him. And still, he was confident to defeat and capture both Itachi and Kisame with a squad made of him, Pre SM Naruto and... some fodders (Yamato, Sakura, Sai, Shino, Kiba and Hinata, all basically irrelevant against either Itachi or Kisame).
> 
> And portrayed below the Sannin? Lol. Nagato sent Animal Path to fight Jiraiya, and then Preta and Human. He sent the Six Paths to kill him, but that was unnecessary, completely. Deva Path never really fought Jiraiya. Kakashi fought Deva from the start and Nagato felt the need to send Asura too as a backup. Without Mangekyo and with the support of some fodders, Kakashi cornered Pain's strongest body and could have killed him. If Deva went all out with CT, Kakashi would have warped him with Kamui.
> 
> ...



That same immortal arc Kakashi said base Naruto was above him

Try harder mate


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2016)

He said Naruto was better than him, because he completed the Rasengan by adding his elemental chakra. Like he said that Naruto would have surpassed Minato, because again he believed he could manage to add his elemental chakra to the Rasengan and complete it, like he and Minato failed to do.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

Kakashi's base arsenal is superior to Itachi's and he's one of the few characters who can match and potentially outmaneuver Itachi strategically. However in terms of triumph cards Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu + Susano'o + Izanami >>>>>>> Kamui.


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2016)

Turrin said:


> _Kakashi's base arsenal is superior to Itachi's and he's one of the few characters who can match and potentially outmaneuver Itachi strategically. However in terms of triumph cards Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu + Susano'o + Izanami >>>>>>> Kamui._



You were right for the most part, but sadly you said it wrong right on the end. Let me correct you.

_Kakashi's base arsenal is superior to Itachi's and he's one of the few characters who can match and potentially outmaneuver Itachi strategically. 
However in terms of triumph cards Kamui >>>>>>> Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu + Susano'o + Izanami._​
Kakashi's long range Kamui is much, much, much faster than Amaterasu. He can warp Itachi together with his Susanoo or warp Itachi in his Susanoo as well. And he can use it without meeting Itachi's eyesight and falling in Tsukuyomi,with the further advantage of literally full knowledge where Itachi has none at all, at best he only can imagine that someway Kakashi developed a Mangekyo Sharingan. Not to mention that Kakashi can also use Kamui suddenly teleport in Itachi's Susanoo and go Raikiri on his face, especially if he manages to tire Itachi by have him miss Amaterasu on a Kage Bunshin, which is something he can surely do. Izanami is not even a question: Itachi needed the advantages to be an Edo (immortal body who can ignore any wound and chakra that gets automatically recharged) plus EMS Sasuke's support to successfully use it on Kabuto, and still "died" two times. Here he isn't an Edo Tensei, he doesn't have EMS Sasuke on his side, and he isn't fighting a cocky Kabuto but he is facing the smart and cunning Kakashi (even smarter than he is in a battle) who can oneshot him.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi's long range Kamui is much, much, much faster than Amaterasu.


Proof 



> He can warp Itachi together with his Susanoo


Kakashi has never warped something that large w/o the assistance of Bijuu chakra



> or warp Itachi in his Susanoo as well. And he can use it without meeting Itachi's eyesight and falling in Tsukuyom


So he's defending Susano'o, while avoiding eye contact, and simultaneously buying time to focus on precisely warping Itachi inside Susano'o. This strays pretty far from authorial intent imo. Kakashi has literally never one shot anyone w/ Kamui, and when Kakashi actually faced Susano'o in the manga he needed to use Kamui for defense just to barely survive one of it's attacks.



> ,with the further advantage of literally full knowledge where Itachi has none at all, at best he only can imagine that someway Kakashi developed a Mangekyo Sharingan.


Kakashi doesn't have the knowledge advantage here, as knowledge is Full for both.



> Not to mention that Kakashi can also use Kamui suddenly teleport in Itachi's Susanoo and go Raikiri on his face


Can two people even fit inside Susano'o?



> especially if he manages to tire Itachi by have him miss Amaterasu on a Kage Bunshin, which is something he can surely do.


Bushin Fienting goes both ways here, as both are highly skilled w/ feints, and both can be tired out by wasting one of their triumph cards.



> Izanami is not even a question: Itachi needed the advantages to be an Edo (immortal body who can ignore any wound and chakra that gets automatically recharged) plus EMS Sasuke's support to successfully use it on Kabuto, and still "died" two times. Here he isn't an Edo Tensei, he doesn't have EMS Sasuke on his side, and he isn't fighting a cocky Kabuto but he is facing the smart and cunning Kakashi (even smarter than he is in a battle) who can oneshot him.


Itachi needed those advantages against SM-Kabuto, who is stronger than Kakashi.

Edit: Though I'm not saying Izanami will certainly work, I was just saying Itachi triumphs give him overall more utility than Kakashi.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> You were right for the most part, but sadly you said it wrong right on the end. Let me correct you.
> 
> _Kakashi's base arsenal is superior to Itachi's and he's one of the few characters who can match and potentially outmaneuver Itachi strategically.
> However in terms of triumph cards Kamui >>>>>>> Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu + Susano'o + Izanami._​
> Kakashi's long range Kamui is much, much, much faster than Amaterasu. .



Didn't Sasuke Amaterasu Obito before the latter could turn intangible? Even when Obito saw that trouble was coming the moment he saw Sasuke's eyes turning into Itachi's MS 

Also Sasuke landed Amaterasu on Kaguya before she could react and forced her to absorb it.

I dunno which is decisively faster but I doubt Kamui got a HUGE advantage in speed.


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Proof
> 
> 
> Kakashi has never warped something that large w/o the assistance of Bijuu chakra
> ...





He did. We all know that Kakashi could insta-warp (1) a giant mass the size of the Gedo Mazo's right arm (2), taking on his arm while Madara was summoning it, so quickly that Minato of all people couldn't follow what happened and had to ask Kakashi if he warped the Gedo or Madara summoned it away. We could do a very good extimate of his maximum mass size warp with 1/3 of the body of the Hachibi: Kakashi with a Kurama chakra supply (that was said to have increased 3x the power of his jutsu) could warp the Hachibi in the Kamui dimension and then re-warp it in the real world, and then finished all the chakra (3)(4)(5). Taking on account that Kakashi used also some chakra right before to travel between the Kamui world and the real world, I'd say it is pretty much clear that without any chakra supply he can warp a mass that is slightly bigger (not by much) than 1/3 of the Hachibi (so also Kamui GG his head or any Bijuu's head with relative ease, or a V3/v4 Susanoo, with the fast execution shown against the Gedo Mazo).

By feats he casually can, sadly.

Oh well, I didn't read OP.

They can for sure, it happened multiple times in the manga. Things and people can enter Susanoo, and even against the user's will (see Gaara's sand in Madara's Susanoo).

Kakashi has more chakra than Itachi, and he's better in first place (in Part 1 he responded to all Itachi's feints with his own, and at the beginning of Part 2 he tricked Itachi himself flawlessy for Itachi's own admission: then Kakashi tricked Pain, and we see Edo Itachi tricking Kabuto).

He isn't stronger, at all. And he would have stomped Itachi if Itachi didn't have all of those advantages we listed.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> .


Your premise seems to be that Amaterasu is slower because the flames don't appear on the target, but we know that they do. 

Zetsu: W - wow... He burnt up the flames with flames! // --HE HAS SIMPLY TO LOOK AT THAT WHICH HE WISHES TO BURN, AND THE BLACK FLAMES SHALL SPREAD FORTH FROM THAT FOCAL POINT--



> He did. We all know that Kakashi could insta-warp (1) a giant mass the size of the Gedo Mazo's right arm (2), taking on his arm while Madara was summoning it, so quickly that Minato of all people couldn't follow what happened and had to ask Kakashi if he warped the Gedo or Madara summoned it away.


So 

1) We're talking about a half blind Kakashi than?
2) Itachi's Susano'o is bigger than GM's arm, it was on a similar scale as Yamata no Orochi



> Kakashi with a Kurama chakra supply (that was said to have increased 3x the power of his jutsu) could warp the Hachibi in the Kamui dimension and then re-warp it in the real world, and then finished all the chakra (3)(4)(5). Taking on account that Kakashi used also some chakra right before to travel between the Kamui world and the real world, I'd say it is pretty much clear that without any chakra supply he can warp a mass that is slightly bigger (not by much) than 1/3 of the Hachibi (so also Kamui GG his head or any Bijuu's head with relative ease, or a V3/v4 Susanoo, with the fast execution shown against the Gedo Mazo).


Kakashi didn't warp Hachibi, he warped Hachibi's Tentacle, which the real Hachibi was hiding inside, I.E. the Kwarimi tech he used to escape Amaterasu.



> They can for sure, it happened multiple times in the manga. Things and people can enter Susanoo, and even against the user's will (see Gaara's sand in Madara's Susanoo).


That's a fair point, he could probably warp in there, but I doubt he's going be able to use Kamui twice + Rarikiri and still be able to move well enough to land a death blow on Itachi, especially when Itachi has full knowledge of Kakashi's Kamui warping ability.



> Kakashi has more chakra than Itachi, and he's better in first place (in Part 1 he responded to all Itachi's feints with his own, and at the beginning of Part 2 he tricked Itachi himself flawlessy for Itachi's own admission: then Kakashi tricked Pain, and we see Edo Itachi tricking Kabuto).


Kakashi has slightly more chakra, but Sharingan drains him more.



> He isn't stronger, at all. And he would have stomped Itachi if Itachi didn't have all of those advantages we listed.


Itachi absolutely is stronger than Kakashi. 2 Mangekyo > 1, and Kakashi's other skills are not far enough above Itachi to make up that difference, I.E. he doesn't have Senju DNA like Obito or 10 Sharingan for Izanagi like Danzo.


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## Icegaze (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> He said Naruto was better than him, because he completed the Rasengan by adding his elemental chakra. Like he said that Naruto would have surpassed Minato, because again he believed he could manage to add his elemental chakra to the Rasengan and complete it, like he and Minato failed to do.



Lol he simply said Naruto had surpassed him 

He didn't go into detail why 

Also note When they had ramen he explained further talking about the ease of ultiizing your higher end moves 

By Kakashi own admission base Naruto > Kakashi at the time


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Your premise seems to be that Amaterasu is slower because the flames don't appear on the target, but we know that they do.
> 
> Zetsu: W - wow... He burnt up the flames with flames! // --HE HAS SIMPLY TO LOOK AT THAT WHICH HE WISHES TO BURN, AND THE BLACK FLAMES SHALL SPREAD FORTH FROM THAT FOCAL POINT--
> 
> ...



And yet in the manga we perfectly see Amaterasu flames propelling towards the objective, rather than appearing on it. Not to mention Amaterasu always being preceded by the eye crying blood.

And Kakashi casually warped the Gedo Mazo arm in a millisecond (as said, a feat that was widely praised by Madara Uchiha) and used Kamui 6-fucking-6 times again after that (actually 1 before, to come back from the other dimension, and 5 times after: on Obito's body, on Minato's Rasengan, on Naruto and Sakura's bodies, on Obito's body again, on Madara's Gudodama shield), plus other techniques (when he fought BZ controlled Obito along with Minato). As said, his limit is a mass slightly bigger than 1/3 the Hachibi.

He warped and rewarped the full Hachibi.

In the manga, he used 5 Kamui (Gedo Mazo's head, a Raikiri infused kunai, a Rasengan, the body of a Naruto clone, to teleport himself) plus a shitton of Raikiri and Raikiri variants and other high level techniques like Kage Bunshin no Jutsu and the usage of the Sharingan, before draining all his chakra. Or, as already addressed, 7 Kamui plus other techniques. So yes, he can.

The Sharingan drains Kakashi much more than it does to Itachi, yes, as Kakashi isn't an Uchiha, and yet Kakashi (with his War Arc feats) can use Mangekyo more than Itachi, much more, even if, as said, he gets drained much more than Itachi (and not only, he uses greatly taxing techniques as well). That's why Kakashi has much more chakra/stamina than Itachi.

Not at all, as Kakashi's (Obito's) Mangekyo is much more haxxed and efficient. When mastered, on top of better base stats, skills and techniques, it puts 1MS Kakashi definitely above Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Mar 8, 2016)

Kamui cannot just appear inside susanoo that's a baseless claim 

And never even slightly proven once 

Susanoo in front of the user means susanoo will be wrapped before the user is . Good thing about susanoo one need not focus on defence since it's already there 

Itachi can attack spam and murder Kakashi 

Dual MS> MS 

Or some might as well claim obito wraps inside Madara PS susanoo and Kamui GG him. That's as unlikely as Kakashi wrapping a susanoo camper


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> And yet in the manga we perfectly see Amaterasu flames propelling towards the objective, rather than appearing on it.


The only example of this is against Ei, and in that instance the focal point shifted from Ei to the Samurai, due to Ei moving too fast for Sasuke's eyes to register the change. 



> Not to mention Amaterasu always being preceded by the eye crying blood.


K, and Kamui is proceeded by it's own eye strain and build up.



> And Kakashi casually warped the Gedo Mazo arm in a millisecond (as said, a feat that was widely praised by Madara Uchiha) and used Kamui 6-fucking-6 times again after that (actually 1 before, to come back from the other dimension, and 5 times after: on Obito's body, on Minato's Rasengan, on Naruto and Sakura's bodies, on Obito's body again, on Madara's Gudodama shield), plus other techniques (when he fought BZ controlled Obito along with Minato). As said, his limit is a mass slightly bigger than 1/3 the Hachibi.


Again Kakashi did not warp Hachibi, he warped Hachibi's tentacle. Hachibi used Kwarimi replacing himself w/ a decoy w/ one tentacle while hiding in another tentacle as he did against Sasuke:
11
11

11
11

Kakashi than warped that tentacle w/ Kamui, and than released it w/ Kamui again, at which point Hachibi exited the Tentacle.



> In the manga, he used 5 Kamui (Gedo Mazo's head, a Raikiri infused kunai, a Rasengan, the body of a Naruto clone, to teleport himself) plus a shitton of Raikiri and Raikiri variants and other high level techniques like Kage Bunshin no Jutsu and the usage of the Sharingan, before draining all his chakra. Or, as already addressed, 7 Kamui plus other techniques. So yes, he can.



1) Kakashi used a partial Kamui against GM that was interrupted halfway through by Obito:
11

2) Kakashi than warped a tiny Kunai:
11

3) Kakashi than warped a Rasengan:
11

4) Kakashi than warped a clone:
11

And than collapsed on the ground. So his limit is 4 Kamui's at best, because if he collapses like that w/o teammates, his enemy is going to merk his ass zero diff. I also say at best because after Kakashi's second Kamui usage, all he did was stand around and use Kamui, he didn't actually fight, so we don't know what his fighting condition was after the 2nd and 3rd Kamui, due to strain he might have already been in a situation where he wouldn't be able to move well enough to evade attacks from more skilled Shinobi; like how he couldn't move well after warping Sasuke's arrow in the Kage Summit arc. Also the 2nd and 3rd Kamui were off small size and the first Kamui was interrupted, so It's generous to say 4 Kamui.



> The Sharingan drains Kakashi much more than it does to Itachi, yes, as Kakashi isn't an Uchiha, and yet Kakashi (with his War Arc feats) can use Mangekyo more than Itachi, much more, even if, as said, he gets drained much more than Itachi (and not only, he uses greatly taxing techniques as well). That's why Kakashi has much more chakra/stamina than Itachi.


Kakashi has never used Mangekyo more than Itachi w/o Rikudo/Obito chakra. Susano'o requires usage of both eyes, let's not forget that key fact. 



> ot at all, as Kakashi's (Obito's) Mangekyo is much more haxxed and efficient. When mastered, on top of better base stats, skills and techniques, it puts 1MS Kakashi definitely above Itachi.


Yeah when mastered, as in having both eyes and Susano'o fully mastered.


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Kamui cannot just appear inside susanoo that's a baseless claim
> 
> And never even slightly proven once
> 
> ...



You say it wouldn't work, you have to prove it wouldn't, until that, which you can't, Susanoo can be warped like any other thing. And since Kamui warp appear on the objective, rather than travel towards it, there's no reason that Susanoo will be different. It's just chakra that surrounds the user.

Kamui acts faster than whatever Itachi can do, and Kakashi can also use it much than Itachi can use his MS. Itachi has no chances in hell against War Arc Kakashi, or Obito for what matters.


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## Clowe (Mar 8, 2016)

Any one of Obito's eyes > Both of Itachi's

Kakashi's kamui works by line of sight, the S/T barrier appears directly on target, Susanoo is translucent, Kakashi can see him from outside, therefore he can warp him even when he's inside Susanoo.

Kamui GG.


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## Itachі (Mar 8, 2016)

^ So you're saying Kakashi could warp someone even if there were 50 glass panels between him and the target?


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## Clowe (Mar 8, 2016)

As long as he can see the target, yes.


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## S (Mar 8, 2016)

Pre war arc they are pretty even, i would still give Kakashi the edge. Post war arc is not debatable, Itachi gets destroyed.


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## Itachі (Mar 8, 2016)

Lol, nobody's destroying anybody here. It's going to be _at least_ mid diff for either side.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2016)

When you see someone forcing Turrin to defend Itachi in a debate, you should know that person must be pushing some limits there. 



Clowe said:


> Any one of Obito's eyes > Both of Itachi's




No.

Tsukiyomi + Amaterasu + Susano'o >>>>>> Kakashi's Kamui

Its not open to debate.



S said:


> Pre war arc they are pretty even, i would still give Kakashi the edge. Post war arc is not debatable, Itachi gets destroyed.



Itachi neg difs Rikodou powered Kakashi.

See, I can talk out of my ass too.


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## S (Mar 8, 2016)

I dont need to talk out of my ass, Kishi made it clear, Kamui is just to OP.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

S said:


> I dont need to talk out of my ass, Kishi made it clear, Kamui is just to OP.


He made it clear by Kakashi going up against a wide variety of Shinobi after getting Kamui and failing to defeat even a single one of them w/ Kamui, many of which were weaker than Itachi.

Really NF, Kakashi is now more overrated than Itachi, this is a sad day.


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## Icegaze (Mar 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> You say it wouldn't work, you have to prove it wouldn't, until that, which you can't, Susanoo can be warped like any other thing. And since Kamui warp appear on the objective, rather than travel towards it, there's no reason that Susanoo will be different. It's just chakra that surrounds the user.
> 
> Kamui acts faster than whatever Itachi can do, and Kakashi can also use it much than Itachi can use his MS. Itachi has no chances in hell against War Arc Kakashi, or Obito for what matters.



He can't wrap itachi quicker than itachi can use susanoo 

Considering the Kirin feat 



Kamui will wrap the portion of susanoo he has created enough chakra for 

He isn't wrapping the whole thing . Susanoo is bigger than gedo arm


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## Santoryu (Mar 8, 2016)

Seems like we need some pepper here to balance things out.


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## Itachі (Mar 8, 2016)

We also need some Kakashi downplay to balance things out.


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## Veracity (Mar 8, 2016)

Turrin said:


> He made it clear by Kakashi going up against a wide variety of Shinobi after getting Kamui and failing to defeat even a single one of them w/ Kamui, many of which were weaker than Itachi.
> 
> Really NF, Kakashi is now more overrated than Itachi, this is a sad day.



Yeah kakashi is ridiculously overrated , I legit have no idea where it came from. Some saying that the odds of Kakashi soloing the entire Sannin is better than a Sannin member beating Kakashi. That's legit against everything portryal and feat wise in the manga.


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## Itachі (Mar 8, 2016)

I don't think Kakashi is overrated that much (Santoryu isn't that active ) but Kakashi's still comfortably above each Sannin imo, besides from Orochimaru with Edo Tensei unrestricted.


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## Icegaze (Mar 8, 2016)

I don't think he is comfortably above. Far from it 

his only shot against jiraiya or oro is kamui off the bat. should he not take that option they kill him

once they bring boss summons out which kakashi little baby scale techniques simply cant deal with


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## Santoryu (Mar 8, 2016)

Saying something is overrated or underrated doesn't serve as an argument, if anything, it detracts from the main points and diminishes an argument. That being said, I'd rather Kakashi be perceived as "overrated" on the forum than"underrated". Means he's actually pretty good. 


Summons that the Deva path danced around, whom Kakashi was physically comparable to in the_ Pein-arc_, are going to beat Kakashi? Not only could they be easily manipulated by _Sharingan-genjutsu_, they can also be easily avoided and dealt with severely with powerful raiton techniques.


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## Yoko (Mar 8, 2016)

Measuring a jutsu's overall efficacy based solely on its track record is an entirely flawed method when you consistently fail to account for the people and the situations in which it was used in.  Unless those situations are replicated in a given thread, saying "Kakashi failed to Kamui person X in situation X and thus he will fail here against person Y in situation Y" is entirely irrelevant.

What we do know is that Kamui is fast enough to interrupt the teleportation of a massive object, prompting a seasoned Hiraishin user in a heightened mode to wonder what exactly just happened.  People don't just magically get to dodge / sense / physically avoid Kamui because it failed back when Kakashi didn't know how to use it or because it failed against Obito.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't think Kakashi is overrated that much (Santoryu isn't that active ) but Kakashi's still comfortably above each Sannin imo, besides from Orochimaru with Edo Tensei unrestricted.


Kakashi is inferior to all of the Sannin, unless you mean DMS-Kakashi.



Yoko said:


> Measuring a jutsu's overall efficacy based solely on its track record is an entirely flawed method when you consistently fail to account for the people and the situations in which it was used in.  Unless those situations are replicated in a given thread, saying "Kakashi failed to Kamui person X in situation X and thus he will fail here against person Y in situation Y" is entirely irrelevant.


No consistently expecting a Jutsu to perform vastly better than it's track record, despite it going up against a wide variety of opponents in a multitude of differing situations and it never performing anywhere even remotely up to those standards, is simply ignorance of authorial intent; I.E. expecting Kakashi to have a good chance of one-shots w/ Kamui in most NBD threads, across a wide set of circumstances, and wide array of enemies, when it has failed to do so even once in the manga.



> What we do know is that Kamui is fast enough to interrupt the teleportation of a massive object, prompting a seasoned Hiraishin user in a heightened mode to wonder what exactly just happened. People don't just magically get to dodge / sense / physically avoid Kamui because it failed back when Kakashi didn't know how to use it or because it failed against Obito.


Minato didn't know what happened because GM disappeared right when Kakashi was completing Kamui, not because of the execution speed of Kamui. Do you even understand the gravity of what your asserting, for fucks sake KCM-Minato was reacting to Juubi Jinchuuriki attacks, so your suggesting Kakashi's Kamui is faster than Juubi Jins; even though later on Kamui's speed at point blank range was preempted by Gaara's Sand Wall (not even his gourd sand):


But man I guess it's Generic Sand Wall > Kamui > Juubi Jins > KCM-Minato, cause that makes sense.

-----------

And while were on the topic of circumstance, I love how people like to pretend Kamui is some God Technique, when in most circumstances it isn't even practical at all. Kakashi at the time of warping GM's arm, vision was already on the edge, so he can only use Kamui a few more times and w/ each usage his range and vision greatly diminish leaving him exposed for other attacks. So Kakashi is going to be hesitant as fuck to use Kamui in a no knowledge scenario if he ever does (this is someone who was hesitant to use Kamui even when fighting Edo-Jinchuuriki), and when he does it will probably be as a last ditch defense, not offense. And in a full knowledge scenario his enemy will simply game around it, and considering Gaara put up a Sand wall before Kakashi could execute Kamui, most High-Tiers can block LOS even at short before Kakashi can Kamui them, and at  Long/Mid it's a cake walk. And it's efficiency is god awefull if he's up against another Team or platoon of Shinobi. So outside of a 1v1 where Kakashi has knowledge that he absolutely needs Kamui to survive and the enemy doesn't have knowledge of Kamui, and the match starts at Short, Kamui one-shot isn't likely happening.


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## Yoko (Mar 8, 2016)

Kakashi is above all the Sannin with Kamui.  None of them are dodging or avoiding it, with or without knowledge, if Kakashi decides to open with it when it could interrupt teleporting summons.

You're a shining example of the misuse of a jutsu's track record.  Are we using early Part II Kakashi in BD threads? Not most of the time.  Is Kakashi fighting another Kamui user? Not most of the time.  Other characters don't get the magical benefit of immunity because it failed in situations like that.  We know the jutsu's capabilities already.

Posters, namely Hasan IIRC, have pointed out to you in depth and ad nauseum that that was a team attack, timed as such, and that the order of the panels do not indicate the order of the attacks.  We have two occasions where KCM Minato could not recognize that Kamui had occurred, one of which was against Gedo Mazo's arm and the other against his own Rasengan.

We've went down this road.  I've got my points across.


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## Ashi (Mar 8, 2016)

Kakashi wins since Itachi isn't doing jack without MS


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Kakashi is above all the Sannin with Kamui.  None of them are dodging or avoiding it, with or without knowledge, if Kakashi decides to open with it when it could interrupt teleporting summons.


So basically OOC Kakashi could beat a Sannin w/ Kamui, if the match started at short. Or in other words Fanfiction Kakashi. If Kakashi could realistically one-shot a Sannin w/ Kamui, he wouldn't have been stroking Jiriaya's dick in the Pain Arc. And before you bitch to me about how his chakra increased in the war-arc, that shit doesn't matter if he can actually one-shot, as he literally only needs one-shot.



> You're a shining example of the misuse of a jutsu's track record. Are we using early Part II Kakashi in BD threads? Not most of the time. Is Kakashi fighting another Kamui user? Not most of the time. Other characters don't get the magical benefit of immunity because it failed in situations like that. We know the jutsu's capabilities already.


Yeah cause the only people Kakashi faced were Deidara in early PII and Obito in Later Part II. It's not like there was a whole host of other battles where Kamui failed to accomplish what your expecting it to. Oh wait...



> Posters, namely Hasan IIRC, have pointed out to you in depth and ad nauseum that that was a team attack, timed as such, and that the order of the panels do not indicate the order of the attacks.


It was not a team attack in the slightest, it was all three of them making a move as quickly as possible to prevent Obito from reaching Madara. There attacks had no synergy and there was absolutely no reason for Kakashi to not use Kamui there as quickly as humanly possible.

And yes the panels indicate exactly when the attacks started, you just don't want to accept them because they don't fall in line w/ your fanfiction version of Kamui. Fuck even if we ignore Gaara and look at Minato. Minato was able to finish tossing a Kunai, enter SM, use Hiraishin to teleport, form Rasengan, thrust at Madara, Madara cuts off his arm, and kicks him, all before Kakashi can finish Kamui'ing Obito at point blank range. Or how about the fact that a page later even Sakura is able to notice Kamui and react to it, well before the warp is completed:
dodge accordingly

Despite again being at point blank range

Or how about the fact that Madara's Gododama balls are able to preempt even Obito's Kamui, despite being launched after Obito had already started using Kamui:
dodge accordingly

And the combined speed of both Kakashi and Obito's Kamui just barely outsped:
dodge accordingly

The same Gododama balls that Kakashi was able to throw a Kunai at about the same speed as:
dodge accordingly
dodge accordingly

Yet you pretend like a Sannin can't get off a single Jutsu before being Kamui'd. Just stop.



> We have two occasions where KCM Minato could not recognize that Kamui had occurred, one of which was against Gedo Mazo's arm and the other against his own Rasengan.


In the first instance Minato didn't know what happened because GM disappeared right when Kakashi was completing Kamui. In the second instance Minato was busy having the shit kicked out of him by a Juubi Jin.

Edit: I mean you can't ignore the entire build up and majority of the activation of Kamui, and base it's speed only on the last split instance before it's completed.


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## Veracity (Mar 9, 2016)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kakashi using Kamui on GM was the first time Minato had seen long range Kamui right? If so, why the hell would that not be surprising? Literally watching a massive arm being warped right in front of your eyes, regardless of the speed is impressive.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kakashi using Kamui on GM was the first time Minato had seen long range Kamui right? If so, why the hell would that not be surprising? Literally watching a massive arm being warped right in front of your eyes, regardless of the speed is impressive.


Honestly that doesn't even matter. 

What matters is that Kakashi starts using Kamui in the 3rd panel on that page, in the 4th panel the space is already shown distorting around GM and GM is being drawn in, than in the 5th panel GM has disappeared in a puff of smoke. Than in the 6th panel Minato asks Kakashi if he got it, meaning Minato obviously did see Kakashi using Kamui (as he wonders if Kakashi's Kamui got GM in time), what he didn't see is whether Kamui landed first or GM was summoned away first. I.E. the only event Minato missed was what occurred between the 4th &5th panel, when Kamui was already almost completed. So it was thee last split instance of Kakashi Kamui that happened quicker than Minato could follow:
dodge accordingly

However Yoko and others are trying to assert that the entire Kamui from start to finish happened quicker than Minato could see, which is absolutely fanfiction, when fucking Sakura of all people can see Kakashi's Kamui happening.


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## Veracity (Mar 9, 2016)

Lol yeah re reading those chapters , I just realized that Kakashi's Kamui speed is wanked AF. Its obvious that the summoning was done in 2 stages- The Gedo Mazo being extracted from Obito( hence the smoke lines indicating the intial summoning... And the fact that Minato and Kakashi could have a converstion in between the stages) and then the Statue appearing at Madara. That feat in no way indicates that Kamui is fast enough to blitz A sannin member before they can touch the ground lol.

I guess nobody ever remembers the fact that Madara's TSB was marginally slower than a Double Kamui Warp, and Obito was physically reacting to TSB at a closet range:dodge accordingly


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## Sapherosth (Mar 9, 2016)

Kamui is quite overrated to be honest.    Last time I checked, the person who's being warped can actually feel it before they're warped. Itachi's speed and reflexes is enough to dodge it. 

Itachi's reflex is >>>> Sasuke's as shown in the Kabuto fight.   So technically, anything Sasuke reflex feats Sasuke has shown prior to receiving Rikudou power is achievable by Itachi comfortably.


Speed, Shunshin, Clones..... We've already seen countless times how he's been able to avoid a sharingan's perception with his feints/clones tactics and even nearly got a hit on SM Kabuto who's one of the most highly perceptive character in the manga.



Also, people disregard Tsukuyomi for some reason....... Kakashi will have to fight Itachi while avoiding his eyes so he won't be able to tell if an amateratsu is coming. Even if he some how knows, he doesn't really have the speed to dodge it except using clones or going underground. 



Taijutsu is not even a question.   Itachi takes this comfortably when he showed the ability to use partial Susano arms.    He punched Sasuke's susano quite easily and the speed looks quite fast as well.   



Ninjutsu -    Kakashi has more variety, but none of which is enough to do anything significant against high tiers except Kamui, which can be countered with enough speed and reflexes.


People also talk about Kakashi outlasting Itachi here and often mention how Kakashi has more chakra..... Honestly, why would it matter when all it takes is going to be 2 MS jutsu MAX and a partial Susano to defeat Kakashi, and we all know Itachi has got enough chakra for at least 3 MS jutsu's and a few minutes of fully armoured Susano.

Additionally, Itachi can just go V2 Susano and start throwing Yasaka beads to Kakashi and force him to use Kamui until he runs out of juice.   Heck, maybe Itachi can just throw a bead, force Kakashi to Kamui then Amateratsu him while he's using kamui on the beads.        It's going to drain Itachi quite a bit, but at least it's going to kill Kakashi.



Kakashi is outclassed here.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> Saying something is overrated or underrated doesn't serve as an argument, if anything, it detracts from the main points and diminishes an argument. That being said, I'd rather Kakashi be perceived as "overrated" on the forum than"underrated". Means he's actually pretty good.
> 
> 
> Summons that the Deva path danced around, whom Kakashi was physically comparable to in the_ Pein-arc_, are going to beat Kakashi? Not only could they be easily manipulated by _Sharingan-genjutsu_, they can also be easily avoided and dealt with severely with powerful raiton techniques.



Genjutsu on summons with their partner around to break it is just shy of useless 

He can dance around however lacks the ability to damage them which is the point 

He isn't dancing around oro and manda at the same time

Sorry are u claiming raikiri kills manda ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm with Turrin on this one.
Kamui is massively overrated.

Lets see it used offensively on a shinobi before we try to calculate its speed. That never happened. 

And one correction, Kamui didn't warp Gedo Mazo mid teleportation. Its the otherway around. Gedo Mazo teleported mid warp. 
There was a slight delay between GM sprouting out of Zetsu, and then teleporting. Kakashi didn't try to warp it while it was teleporting. Teleportation is instant. Kakashi tried to warp it when it appeared in front of them, and just as he used Kamui, GM got teleported. I don't see why it is a big deal, as we know Minato did the same thing to Tobi. He teleported away during mid warp.


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

I don't think that Itachi (or really any ninja without S/T ninjutsu, for that matter) has the speed to evade Kamui up close. The only things in Itachi's arsenal that you could argue would be fast enough to interrupt Kamui are Amaterasu or Totsuka Blade. That said, long-range Kamui *isn't a thing*. Kakashi outright stated that he needed to be up close in order to use Kamui. And that was just after Kaksahi had warped away the arm of Gedou Mazou.

Long-range Kamui is fanfic. 


*Spoiler*: __ 








The gap between Itachi and Kakashi in terms of their Mangekyou range is massive.

Now, if this Kakashi at the beginning of Shippuden, then he should be able to use Kamui from longer ranges, but he can't use any of his War Arc feats.​


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## Alex Payne (Mar 9, 2016)

Kamui's range only dropped at the very end of War Arc. After Kakashi used Kamui for like 10 times in a row. Range at which Kakashi tried to headshot GM was quite long. Unless this is specifically Kakashi at the end of War Arc his MS range is easily comparable to Itachi's.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2016)

And beginning of part 2 Kamui is mediocre as fuck.


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Kamui's range only dropped at the very end of War Arc. After Kakashi used Kamui for like 10 times in a row. Range at which Kakashi tried to headshot GM was quite long. Unless this is specifically Kakashi at the end of War Arc his MS range is easily comparable to Itachi's.




Not really. The Gedou Mazou's head is nearly the size of a bijuu. 

I would hope that he could see to use Kamui accurately from that range.

Edit: Never mind, the bijuu shrunk when the Gedou Mazou was swallowing them. It's still rather large in comparison to the cerberus heads.

Kakashi needed B to lift him up in order to target the head of Gedou Mazou.





So obviously distance played a factor there.​


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## Alex Payne (Mar 9, 2016)

So? What's stopping Kakashi from using biju-sized Kamui on Itachi(and his Susano)? 

And Kakashi Kamui'd Naruto's KB at the range longer than Naruto's Bijudama AoE radius that was used on the same exact spot right after Kamui.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2016)

Yeah, targeting a moving human sized target should require much greater accuracy than targeting a stationary bijuu sized thing.


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> So? What's stopping Kakashi from using biju-sized Kamui on Itachi(and his Susano)?




Kakashi's never used bijuu-sized Kamui without buildup or Kurama's chakra. Gedou Mazou's arm is not as big as a bijuu.




> And Kakashi Kamui'd Naruto's KB at the range longer than Naruto's Bijudama AoE radius that was used on the same exact spot right after Kamui.





The BD sailed past Obito, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.​


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## Alex Payne (Mar 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kakashi's never used bijuu-sized Kamui without buildup or Kurama's chakra. Gedou Mazou's arm is not as big as a bijuu.



And what's stopping Kakashi from building chakra up?



Saru said:


> The BD sailed past Obito, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.



Kakashi aimed at Rasengan first to trick Obito and then warped KB. Right after that Naruto shoots BD at the same exact spot Kakashi was aiming at. BD that was larger than Hachibi. And Kakashi dropped from exhaustion at a decent range from said bigger-than-Hachibi bijudama. And that panel was shown before phasing-Obito was smacked by Rasengan so BD was still covering original Kamui's aim. Kakashi was farther from Naruto's KB than BD's radius plus some small-to-medium unquantifable distance. And he could target _Rasengan_ from that range.

Even if you use post-everything distances because Kishi does indeed suck at scaling it still looks impressive considering that Kakashi could clearly see Rasengan at that range.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 9, 2016)

Anyone that still thinks Kakashi with Kamui is not above sannin level is still clutching straws at this points. It's like saying Itschi with Amaterasu is below them...would love to see someone own up to that.


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> And what's stopping Kakashi from building chakra up?




I mean, unless Kakashi uses a Bunshin feint, he's not going to have the luxury of standing there and building up the chakra needed to warp something that big. I've already stated that if Kakashi is up close, I think he can warp away Itachi and Susano'o just fine, but that still doesn't prevent Itachi from Bunshin feinting Kakashi. Itachi's Bunshin feints are so fast that Kakashi wouldn't be able to tell that Itachi had used one until it was too late.




> Kakashi aimed at Rasengan first to trick Obito and then warped KB. Right after that Naruto shoots BD at the same exact spot Kakashi was aiming at. BD that was larger than Hachibi. And Kakashi dropped from exhaustion at a decent range from said bigger-than-Hachibi bijudama. And that panel was shown before phasing-Obito was smacked by Rasengan so BD was still covering original Kamui's aim. Kakashi was farther from Naruto's KB than BD's radius plus some small-to-medium unquantifable distance. And he could target _Rasengan_ from that range.
> 
> Even if you use post-everything distances because Kishi does indeed suck at scaling it still looks impressive considering that Kakashi could clearly see Rasengan at that range.




What I'm saying is, the radius of the BD is not particularly relevant, because Kakashi warped Naruto's Kage Bunshin before the BD was fired and traveled to Obito. Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, and B were not standing next to each other when Kakashi warped Naruto's Kage Bunshin. B and Naruto had engaged Obito in combat, and Kakashi and Gai had to run to catch up them. So everyone's positions were already skewed before the BD was fired. Naruto fired the BD at Obito, but obviously time elapsed and Obito moved between the time that the BD was charged and fired and the time that Obito phased through the BD. 

Naruto's clone was not sitting in the same exact spot as it was before Kakashi warped it with Kamui. That's pretty clear from how close Naruto's Kage Bunshin was to Obito before being warped and after Obito went into the Kamui dimension. The Kage Bunshin was lying in wait.​


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2016)

There you go again with the "standing there" thing. Building chakra can be done on the move. The only exception is senjutsu. Kakashi could build whatever power he needed while moving around.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2016)

All hail the almighty Kamui, that is so fast KCM-Minato can't even perceive it. Also all hail Sakura whose reactions vastly out match KCM-Minato:



Yeah the Kakashi fandom are being super reasonable in their expectations of Kamui.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2016)

@ryuzaki

Sakura reacted to Kamui 

The sannin murder kakashi


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> There you go again with the "standing there" thing. Building chakra can be done on the move. The only exception is senjutsu. Kakashi could build whatever power he needed while moving around.




Is that why Kakashi stood still when he was warping the head of Gedou Mazou? Kamui wasn't performed "on the move" in the manga. Quite the opposite. Understand that Kamui requires Kakashi to not only buildup chakra but also form the S/T barrier. Warping something that rivals the size of a bijuu requires a level of concentration that Kakashi is unable to provide in the midst of _combat_. Do you think that Kakashi is just going to dance around Itachi's offense? If the answer is no, then he's not going to be able to use Kamui on a massive target without making himself vulnerable in some fashion.



Icegaze said:


> Jiriaya summons bunta in front of him. I don't see how Kakashi gathers chakra quicker than Jiriaya can use 1 seal for a summon
> 
> Tsunade does the same





*Spoiler*: __ 










Kakashi warped away Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow at the drop of a dime.

Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow speed > Kage-level hand seal speed as per canon. And Izanagi has even less hand seals than Kuchiyose.

None of the Sannin are blocking Kakashi's LOS at mid range before Kamui happens.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2016)

Sakura reacted to Kamui as it was wrapping her and Naruto without knowledge of it or any knowledge that she was being targeted 

Think every sannin got better reactions than she does 

Summoning is 1 seal 

Why is the assumption that Kakashi attacks first actually ?


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sakura reacted to Kamui as it was wrapping her and Naruto without knowledge of it or any knowledge that she was being targeted
> 
> Think every sannin got better reactions than she does
> 
> ...




I don't know what you're referring to, but it doesn't negate what I just posted. Kamui > Kage-level hand seal speed. Kuchiyose requires multiple hand seals. If the Sannin want to avoid Kamui, they'll have to do that by preventing it from happening and/or fighting from a distance. They're not going to be able to react to it and counterattack while the jutsu is taking place.​


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2016)

Kamui wasn't performed on the move against the Mazo because Kakashi had no reason to move, lol. We were talking about building chakra anyway, not actually using Kamui.


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## skyluv (Mar 9, 2016)

Kamui can be easily dodge.. As Kamui need a focus target. Also Kakashi cant tell if its a clone..Itachi is good at using clones even with point of a finger multiple of crows would appear.

Itachi also posses 2 magical weapon. Totsuka and Yata Mirror.

Healthy Itachi is faster than Kakashi. As a proof Itachi manage to match Chakra Cloak Naruto so easily Including Bee with chakra cloak.

Itachi can easily pull of totsuka sword if he want too just like how he blitz Edo Nagato.


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## LightningForce (Mar 9, 2016)

Turrin said:


> All hail the almighty Kamui, that is so fast KCM-Minato can't even perceive it. Also all hail Sakura whose reactions vastly out match KCM-Minato:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah the Kakashi fandom are being super reasonable in their expectations of Kamui.



Am I missing something? How does that prove Sakura's reactions > KCM Minato's? *She was the one being sucked in*, she is going to feel something. Sensation of your body =/= visual perception. But that doesn't mean she can react to it in combat, let alone avoid it. 

People are trying to downplay Kamui's feats, when the manga has already made it clear that it is faster than anything Rinnegan Obito or KCM Minato can perceive if Kakashi is really trying.

Look at the position where BM Naruto is with respect to Obito and his stake. Kamui is just barely initiating a warp with Rasengan, and yet still manages to suck the entire clone in.



*Spoiler*: __ 








Obito's stake was *millimeters* away from BM Naruto. Kakashi's Kamui warp managed to get that shit in. The timing couldn't be more precise.

Kamui is gonna warp Itachi before he even realizes where he is.



skyluv said:


> *Kamui can be easily dodge.. As Kamui need a focus target. Also Kakashi cant tell if its a clone..Itachi is good at using clones even with point of a finger multiple of crows would appear.*
> 
> Itachi also posses 2 magical weapon. Totsuka and Yata Mirror.
> 
> ...



Finger genjutsu will do jack against someone who resisted Obito's genjutsu, and Kakashi also has clones of his own.

Kakashi fought Obito evenly, who had reactions and movements to take on KCM Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi himself. Also, I don't know where you get this 'easily' part from.

Edo Nagato was crippled. Blitzing a cripple is not anything to be noteworthy of.


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## Ashi (Mar 9, 2016)

skyluv said:


> Kamui can be easily dodge.. As Kamui need a focus target. Also Kakashi cant tell if its a clone..Itachi is good at using clones even with point of a finger multiple of crows would appear.
> 
> Itachi also posses 2 magical weapon. Totsuka and Yata Mirror.
> 
> ...



When did Itachi land a successful blow on Bee or Naruto


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't know what you're referring to, but it doesn't negate what I just posted. Kamui > Kage-level hand seal speed. Kuchiyose requires multiple hand seals. If the Sannin want to avoid Kamui, they'll have to do that by preventing it from happening and/or fighting from a distance. They're not going to be able to react to it and counterattack while the jutsu is taking place.​



Turrin scan shows Sakura reacting to it 

Itachi should have no issues as well 

Therefore he brings up susanoo and survives it 

From there pressures with susanoo leaving Kakashi with no option but to die 

Kakashi ain't going to be able to pull off Kamui again when itachi is pressuring him


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## Bonly (Mar 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't know what you're referring to, but it doesn't negate what I just posted. Kamui > Kage-level hand seal speed. Kuchiyose requires multiple hand seals. If the Sannin want to avoid Kamui, they'll have to do that by preventing it from happening and/or fighting from a distance. They're not going to be able to react to it and counterattack while the jutsu is taking place.



Actually Jiraiya was able to summon just by simply clapping his hands, we've seen Tsunade summon by only putting blood on the palm of one hand and then touch the ground, we've seen the French Dude only bite his thumb and touch the ground, and we've seen Itachi summon with one handseal. I'm sure there's more but meh, anywway as you can see one doesn't always have to use multiple handseals to using summoning so it's not quite right to say that they couldn't use summoning before Kamui was done due to multiple handseals.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2016)

As bonly has pointed out above 

Madara also simply slammed his hand to the ground to summon GM

The best example would be orochimaru who actually doesn't need seals at all . He only need touch his summoning tattoo

So in this fight here with knowledge why doesn't itachi just block LoS with crows then play the feint game 

He got more speed , quicker hand seal speed , better clone feinting feats


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## LightningForce (Mar 9, 2016)

More speed? No.

Quicker hand seal speed? Yes, but that's not going to help much.

Better clone feint feats? Absolutely not, Kakashi feinted Deva Path and Asura Path without any help beforehand which is arguably better than the SM Kabuto feat.


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

Pretty sure the reason Kishi doesn't show the hand seal weaving process for Kuchiyose is for artistic purposes. It would be redundant. It's literally the same seals for every user. Characters seemingly perform jutsu without hand seals all the time. 




It would be a waste of time to insert a panel for hand seal motions every single time a ninjutsu is used. Regardless, none of the Sannin have the speed to react to Kamui and block Kakashi LOS while being warped. If he's targeting the Sannin specifically, Kakashi can also simply target their head, which would be faster and require less concentration.



LightningForce said:


> More speed? No.




What has Kakashi done to suggest that he's as fast as Itachi?​


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> More speed? No.
> 
> Quicker hand seal speed? Yes, but that's not going to help much.
> 
> Better clone feint feats? Absolutely not, Kakashi feinted Deva Path and Asura Path without any help beforehand which is arguably better than the SM Kabuto feat.



Yes more speed 

Has better speed feats 

Better clone feints . Feinting a perfect SM user is well above anytning Kakashi has done 

Itachi also feinted Sasuke his own team mate with EMS that's a lot better than poor substitutes for nagato

@saru or the more logical explanation is experienced users only need 1 seal or no seal for summoning 

Same way tobirama turned a 44 seal jutsu into a 1 seal jutsu . Water dragon 

Again not sure why the assumption with full knowledge is Kakashi is faster on the draw and the one to attack first 

We also forgetting oro needs no seals to transform into hydra which hard and I mean hard counters Kakashi entire skill set


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## skyluv (Mar 9, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Finger genjutsu will do jack against someone who resisted Obito's genjutsu, and Kakashi also has clones of his own.
> 
> Kakashi fought Obito evenly, who had reactions and movements to take on KCM Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi himself. Also, I don't know where you get this 'easily' part from.
> 
> Edo Nagato was crippled. Blitzing a cripple is not anything to be noteworthy of.



Kakashi himself stated that Itachi Genjutsu is on another level. Obito isnt that good of genjutsu user himself. It was stated that Nine Tails can be control by Sharingan genjutsu..Even Sasuke manage before war arc manage to get inside Naruto/kyuubi via genjutsu.


Kakashi never fought Obito evenly.. Obito does not have reaction he was constantly using Kamui on his own body..He got hit when Rasengan was teleported inside his Dimension. If Obito did not have that kamui function on. He would gotten hit many times.  Obito was also on low chakra and Kakashi was given by Kyuubi chakra. If you fight Obito vs Kakashi without any help, i like to see your kakashi survive against Obito.

Yea because Edo Nagato was Crippled and Chakra Cloak Bee & Naruto COULD NOT BLITZ Cripple Nagato..


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## Ashi (Mar 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> What has Kakashi done to suggest that he's as fast as Itachi?[/indent]



Keep up with characters faster than Itachi?


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## LightningForce (Mar 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> What has Kakashi done to suggest that he's as fast as Itachi?​



Plenty enough throughout the manga, but I am only going to list a few to destroy this fallacious, construed notion that Itachi is faster than Kakashi, period.

Intercepted an incoming Gian towards Shikamaru and Choji, few feet away from them, out of nowhere just as he was being distracted by Hidan and Kakuzu's wind mask a while ago [1][2], which presumably also avoided while engaging in CQC with Hidan, since he wasn't torn apart [1].

Kept pace with Gated Gai twice, once in which he was Sixth-Gated [1] [2] and even landed a Raikiri once against the V2 hosts who were smashing KCM Naruto around like a pinball.

React to and move in a similar manner to KCM Minato, even if it was in a short burst [1].

Add to the fact that he can at open up at least one gate, which enhances the user's physical strength and speed, and all these feats plus more allow me to comfortably put him on the same speed and reaction tier of the High-Kage regime, at Itachi's level if not marginally above him. Their speed differences, whatever they may be, will not be the deciding factor in a match between them.

Now, let me ask: what has Itachi done to suggest he's faster than Kakashi?



Icegaze said:


> Yes more speed
> 
> Has better speed feats
> 
> ...



Nope. See above, and answer my question as well if you want to refute it.

Kabuto is not a perfect sage mode user. I initially believed that as well, until DaWizViz convinced me that perfect sage mode users have no animal-like traits except for around the eyes. SM Kabuto has horns and a wider mouth than usual. Also, he was blind and vision impairment is an impairment no matter how you look at it. That lessens the impressiveness of the feat to me.

Sasuke is not as tactical or analytical as Kakashi, and his EMS doesn't do jack to make up for that. Kakashi can likely see through a feint better than Sasuke can.

These 'poor substitutes' are the ones who wrecked SM Naruto + backup boss toad support.  They also have shared vision and are sensors. Fuck, Deva Path was so tripped out he didn't dare approach Kakashi afterwards.



skyluv said:


> Kakashi himself stated that Itachi Genjutsu is on another level. Obito isnt that good of genjutsu user himself. It was stated that Nine Tails can be control by Sharingan genjutsu..Even Sasuke manage before war arc manage to get inside Naruto/kyuubi via genjutsu.
> 
> 
> Kakashi never fought Obito evenly.. Obito does not have reaction he was constantly using Kamui on his own body..He got hit when Rasengan was teleported inside his Dimension. If Obito did not have that kamui function on. He would gotten hit many times.  Obito was also on low chakra and Kakashi was given by Kyuubi chakra. If you fight Obito vs Kakashi without any help, i like to see your kakashi survive against Obito.
> ...



If you honestly believe that a fucking crippled man can keep up with KB and KCM Naruto, then I'm gonna have to drop out of this argument, sorry. Been down that road too many times.


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## Santoryu (Mar 9, 2016)

He also held Obito at gun point


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## Saru (Mar 9, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Plenty enough throughout the manga, but I am only going to list a few to destroy this fallacious, construed notion that Itachi is faster than Kakashi, period.
> 
> Intercepted an incoming Gian towards Shikamaru and Choji, few feet away from them, out of nowhere just as he was being distracted by Hidan and Kakuzu's wind mask a while ago [1][2], which presumably also avoided while engaging in CQC with Hidan, since he wasn't torn apart [1].




Of _all_ the feats you could have chosen, I don't know why you brought up this one. Nothing about this feat indicates or even implies that Kakashi is faster than Itachi. For one, Atsugai hit Kakashi. His clothes blew off. Do you think Kakashi just decided to strip? Secondly, Ino had time to warn Choji and Shikamaru before Gian got to them, and Kakashi intercepted Gian from off panel. I like how you ding Itachi for feinting a Sage Mode sensor in Kabuto (with his non-existent blindness), but you try to oversell Kakashi intercepting GIan from a distance that is small and literally impossible to accurately quantify. Regardless, neither surviving Atsugai nor intercepting Gian are impressive speed feats in comparison to what Itachi has done. Itachi got in Killer B's space twice with his Body Flicker--and that was as an Edo Tensei, so his movement speed was even slower than it would have been in life.




> Kept pace with Gated Gai twice, once in which he was Sixth-Gated [1] [2] and even landed a Raikiri once against the V2 hosts who were smashing KCM Naruto around like a pinball.




You're skewing the circumstances _so_ much. Kakashi did not keep pace with 6G Gai. They both attacked at the same time, but they were not shown moving at the same speed. You might as well say that Kakashi can blitz the majority of Kage-level ninja if you think that Kakashi is as fast as 6G Gai. The Jinchuuriki _*ganged up*_ on Naruto. He couldn't handle _all of them_ at once, and neither could Kakashi and Gai. In fact, both of them (Kakashi or 6G Gai) would get _*stomped*_ trying to take them all on at once without help. Naruto was able to handle the Jinchuuriki just fine one-on-one, which was obvious from the fact that he was able to block Fuu's attack. You're trying to twist the Jinchuuriki fight to make it sound like Naruto was too slow to keep up with the V2 Jinchuuriki, and then make Kakashi seem like some sort of silver flash. He's not.

I also love how you conveniently left out this panel:



Kakashi and Gai got knocked around by the Jinchuuriki too, unsurprisingly. 

Landing Raikiri is also nowhere near as impressive as you seem to think it is. Other Kage-level ninja would have been able to land hits on those Jinchuuriki as well. Over 200 chapters earlier, Orochimaru was able to slither right up KN4 Naruto's face and land a punch. That doesn't mean that Orochimaru is a speed demon. In fact, it's likely that the Jinchuuriki didn't feel the need to dodge Kakashi's weaksauce Raikiri considering it bounced off of their cloaks. The Jinchuuriki like to tank things because they're endowed with bijuu-level durability and they can. 




> React to and move in a similar manner to KCM Minato, even if it was in a short burst [1].




I don't even know what you're trying to suggest with this example. Are you trying to say that Kakashi moves as fast as KCM Minato? That would be laughable. If that's not what you're trying to say, then why in the world did you bring up that panel? Kakashi took a single step. Many other Kage-level ninja would have been able do what Kakashi did there: take a step.




> Add to the fact that he can at open up at least one gate, which enhances the user's physical strength and speed, and all these feats plus more allow me to comfortably put him on the same speed and reaction tier of the High-Kage regime, at Itachi's level if not marginally above him. Their speed differences, whatever they may be, will not be the deciding factor in a match between them.




Opening up the First Gate will bring Kakashi _up to_ Itachi's level in terms of speed. Then Kakashi will run out of stamina to sustain the First Gate because he's not Gai, his movements will slow down, and he'll end up back at square one. That's probably why Kakashi has *never* used the First Gate in any of his battles in Shippuden. There's no way for Kakashi to make up the speed difference between him and Itachi (which extends from physical movement speed to hand seal speed to shurikenjutsu speed), and that speed difference will _definitely_ have an impact on this battle, because Itachi and Kakashi are already close in a number of aspects. The only difference is that Itachi is superior to Kakashi in all of those aspects (bar ninjutsu and arguably tactics, where Kakashi is superior, and taijutsu, where Kakashi and Itachi are roughly equal). 




> Now, let me ask: what has Itachi done to suggest he's faster than Kakashi?




That's not the way it works, bro. Itachi is the one with a 5 in speed in the Databook and superior speed feats and hype. Kakashi never caught up to him. The burden is on you to prove the Databook wrong or show major improvement in Kakashi's speed through feats, and so far you have failed to do so.




> Kabuto is not a perfect sage mode user. I initially believed that as well, until DaWizViz convinced me that perfect sage mode users have no animal-like traits except for around the eyes. SM Kabuto has horns and a wider mouth than usual. Also, he was blind and vision impairment is an impairment no matter how you look at it. That lessens the impressiveness of the feat to me.




So much downplay in this paragraph... 

Kabuto had abnormal physical features because he modified his body, absorbed Orochimaru's chakra, and was constantly collecting natural energy... Kabuto acquired snakelike features ages ago. I have no clue what you're going on about with blindness. Kabuto was not blind, and he's a Sage Mode sensor regardless. Even Kabuto's ass snake has the ability to sense and communicate with other snakes.




> Sasuke is not as tactical or analytical as Kakashi, and his EMS doesn't do jack to make up for that. Kakashi can likely see through a feint better than Sasuke can.




Tactics has nothing to do with how fast Kakashi's eye can track movement. I highly, highly doubt that Kakashi, despite having no vision in his left eye, has better eyes than EMS Sasuke with perfect vision.​


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 9, 2016)

Turrin said:


> All hail the almighty Kamui, that is so fast KCM-Minato can't even perceive it. Also all hail Sakura whose reactions vastly out match KCM-Minato:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah the Kakashi fandom are being super reasonable in their expectations of Kamui.



Just to clear this up, in your expert opinion, Kakashi w/manga knowledge and Kamui would still be inferior to all the sannin in an individual match up? 
*Spoiler*: __


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 10, 2016)

I think Kamui poses too much of a risk to Kakashi that I'm not sure if the reward is worth it. There is a reason why Kakashi refrained to use it in 1on1 fights unless certain death was inevitable.

Kamui is like Gai's gates. Temporarily both of them can match or surpass Sannin but it is a big risk to take and if they can't get the job done in that limited time they are good as dead.

So yes, I'd say Sannin > Kakashi, with or without Kamui.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 10, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think Kamui poses too much of a risk to Kakashi that I'm not sure if the reward is worth it. There is a reason why Kakashi refrained to use it in 1on1 fights unless certain death was inevitable.
> 
> Kamui is like Gai's gates. Temporarily both of them can match or surpass Sannin but it is a big risk to take and if they can't get the job done in that limited time they are good as dead.
> 
> So yes, I'd say Sannin > Kakashi, with or without Kamui.



Which isn't a poor assessment on your part at all if we were talking about any other version of Kakashi aside from War Arc. I agree he would have only used it as a last ditch effort in his previous battles but there's a serious mastery level jump between Pain Arc and War Arc.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 10, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Which isn't a poor assessment on your part at all if we were talking about any other version of Kakashi aside from War Arc. I agree he would have only used it as a last ditch effort in his previous battles but there's a serious mastery level jump between Pain Arc and War Arc.



I think it is war arc power inflation(more like stamina inflation) + the support of arguably stronger team mates, rather than a jump of mastery level.

Thats the point I was making. Kakashi was able to freely use Kamui in many occasions in the war arc because there was always someone who could look after his body or keep the enemy busy, so that being exposed after using Kamui didn't factor in.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 10, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think it is war arc power inflation(more like stamina inflation) + the support of arguably stronger team mates, rather than a jump of mastery level.
> 
> Thats the point I was making. Kakashi was able to freely use Kamui in many occasions in the war arc because there was always someone who could look after his body or keep the enemy busy, so that being exposed after using Kamui didn't factor in.


Yeah, but he also had to fight several people well out of his league as well, I mean, you can't discredit him because he had support against people who well out of his league. In a 1 vs. 1 scenario, I could see him holding his own much better than any of the Gokage could against Edo Madara or Obito. That much is given, but the circumstances of the war also have to be taken into account. I think that last paragraph could be used to discredit anyone who competed in the war, Kakashi with Kamui in a 1 vs. 1 match up against Jiraiya, Orochimaru or Tsunade would have an automatic advantage simply due to the fact that he has an instantaneous MS ninjutsu that is relatively indefensible. He could legit warp them away and they could do nothing about it. This technique is the reason why he beats so many high tiers, kages and etc because he exists in a time where the MS is so rare that legit only 2-3 people have ever seen it. I mean, I'm not trying to make an argument for Kakashi beating Hashirama, more like an argument of Kakashi beating someone well below Hashirama.


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## LightningForce (Mar 10, 2016)

I might or might not continue this debate, depending on how long it gets. I have a lot of stuff to do, and frankly can't be bothered keeping track of such lengthy arguments. But I'll at least reply to your previous ones in detail.



Saru said:


> Of _all_ the feats you could have chosen, I don't know why you brought up this one. Nothing about this feat indicates or even implies that Kakashi is faster than Itachi. For one, Atsugai hit Kakashi. His clothes blew off. Do you think Kakashi just decided to strip? Secondly, Ino had time to warn Choji and Shikamaru before Gian got to them, and Kakashi intercepted Gian from off panel. I like how you ding Itachi for feinting a Sage Mode sensor in Kabuto (with his non-existent blindness), but you try to oversell Kakashi intercepting GIan from a distance that is small and literally impossible to accurately quantify. Regardless, neither surviving Atsugai nor intercepting Gian are impressive speed feats in comparison to what Itachi has done. Itachi got in Killer B's space twice with his Body Flicker--and that was as an Edo Tensei, so his movement speed was even slower than it would have been in life.​




I think you're misunderstanding me. I never claimed Kakashi was faster than Itachi, only that he is at his level. The feats I am using are about as quantifiable as Itachi's or anybody else's speed when they are not explicitly mentioned or calculated to be fast. We have to take the circumstances and scale of distance under which the characters act. Kakashi was quick enough to handle Hidan and the wind mask first, and then rush over (probably also a body flicker) to save Shikamaru and Choji from a lightning-based attack, which should move at pretty high speeds considering the nature of the attack. That's pretty fast in my book, about as fast as anytime as when Itachi clashed with KB.

The blast radius of that Atsugai was incredible and I doubt that Kakashi would've gotten out with simply just his jacket destroyed if he did tank it. The only reasonable explanation is that he avoided it, whether safely or barely (or perhaps used Substitution Jutsu, but we know how Kishi had forsaken it) - but he would not have tanked that, since his durability is not more than what can blow through a large range of dead forest trees.

Getting into KB's space is an impressive feat, no doubt, but one that's also shared by Sasuke. Besides, KB was never hyped up to be a speedster - at least I don't see it without his shushin - either from what I can recall, so again how does that reinforce Itachi's base speed standing relative to Kakashi?



> You're skewing the circumstances _so_ much. Kakashi did not keep pace with 6G Gai. They both attacked at the same time, but they were not shown moving at the same speed. You might as well say that Kakashi can blitz the majority of Kage-level ninja if you think that Kakashi is as fast as 6G Gai. The Jinchuuriki _*ganged up*_ on Naruto. He couldn't handle _all of them_ at once, and neither could Kakashi and Gai. In fact, both of them (Kakashi or 6G Gai) would get _*stomped*_ trying to take them all on at once without help. Naruto was able to handle the Jinchuuriki just fine one-on-one, which was obvious from the fact that he was able to block Fuu's attack. You're trying to twist the Jinchuuriki fight to make it sound like Naruto was too slow to keep up with the V2 Jinchuuriki, and then make Kakashi seem like some sort of silver flash. He's not.
> 
> I also love how you conveniently left out this panel:
> 
> ...



The V2 hosts were knocking Gai the same way they were knocking Kakashi back (both of whom also blocked those hits). The portrayal from my POV is that the two were performing under the same level, and appropriately so considering they're both mutual rivals. And yes, I would peg Kakashi's speed as around 6th Gate Gai's level as well, but certainly not 7th Gate. Prove me wrong if you have their feats to compare.

My intention was not to shit on KCM Naruto, just to show an instance where Kakashi outperformed Naruto where the latter failed to counterattack properly. Matter of fact, they were handling the V2 hosts far better than KCM Naruto and KB did alone before they received back-up by the masters.



> Landing Raikiri is also nowhere near as impressive as you seem to think it is. Other Kage-level ninja would have been able to land hits on those Jinchuuriki as well. Over 200 chapters earlier, Orochimaru was able to slither right up KN4 Naruto's face and land a punch. That doesn't mean that Orochimaru is a speed demon. In fact, it's likely that the Jinchuuriki didn't feel the need to dodge Kakashi's weaksauce Raikiri considering it bounced off of their cloaks. *The Jinchuuriki like to tank things* because they're endowed with bijuu-level durability and they can.



You have a point there about landing hits on the hosts with Orochimaru, I forgot about that. But the bolded is not true, they have that level of durability but if they want to dodge, they will considering one of them dodged Kakashi's Raikiri and followed up with pushing him back.





> I don't even know what you're trying to suggest with this example. Are you trying to say that Kakashi moves as fast as KCM Minato? That would be laughable. If that's not what you're trying to say, then why in the world did you bring up that panel? Kakashi took a single step. Many other Kage-level ninja would have been able do what Kakashi did there: take a step.



It was a lunge, which requires body movement and reaction of that same speed. It's a feat to prove Kakashi's body movement speed which is not always indicative of footspeed, and if it were less than Minato's, then Minato would've done the deed and snatched Black Zetsu already. Feats are feats, kind of like the fact that Itachi can flash-activate Susano'o before he gets struck by lightning.





> Opening up the First Gate will bring Kakashi _up to_ Itachi's level in terms of speed. Then Kakashi will run out of stamina to sustain the First Gate because he's not Gai, his movements will slow down, and he'll end up back at square one. That's probably why Kakashi has *never* used the First Gate in any of his battles in Shippuden. There's no way for Kakashi to make up the speed difference between him and Itachi (which extends from physical movement speed to hand seal speed to shurikenjutsu speed), and that speed difference will _definitely_ have an impact on this battle, because Itachi and Kakashi are already close in a number of aspects. The only difference is that Itachi is superior to Kakashi in all of those aspects (bar ninjutsu and arguably tactics, where Kakashi is superior, and taijutsu, where Kakashi and Itachi are roughly equal).



I believe opening up the first Gate will bring up Kakashi's level marginally higher than Itachi's. If Itachi is pressuring him with speed, then why wouldn't he do it? Many characters have used types of jutsu only once and never to showcase them again, but in the BD we give them all of their feats and jutsu arsenal that they have shown. It's not like he's not opening up several Gates which would then place a severe strain on the body. 





> That's not the way it works, bro. Itachi is the one with a 5 in speed in the Databook and superior speed feats and hype. Kakashi never caught up to him. The burden is on you to prove the Databook wrong or show major improvement in Kakashi's speed through feats, and so far you have failed to do so.



Kakashi has a 4.5 in speed (and on another note, Orochimaru also had a 4.5 in speed), and must have only improved by the end of the War Arc. It's like saying Orochimaru will still be susceptible to genjutsu as he was 7 years ago prior to the manga when he also has a 5 in genjutsu skill by the time of the third databook. The third databook was written by the time of the Pain Arc, and he's had several more feats to display since then. Even Obito commented that he was fast. 





> So much downplay in this paragraph...
> 
> Kabuto had abnormal physical features because he modified his body, absorbed Orochimaru's chakra, and was constantly collecting natural energy... Kabuto acquired snakelike features ages ago. I have no clue what you're going on about with blindness. Kabuto was not blind, and he's a Sage Mode sensor regardless. Even Kabuto's ass snake has the ability to sense and communicate with other snakes.



Not downplay, just making clarifications. Perfect sage mode from what we know is attained when the user displays no marks of the animal they want to transform into aside from the pigmentation around their eyes. SM Naruto and Hashirama had these traits, which make them perfect SM users. DMS Kabuto, on the other hand, had the horns and long mouth compared to his normal self. I'm not referring to his already-present snake-like features. And he was indeed blind, his eyes were blocked, it's how we was able to bypass the effects of White Rage and visual genjutsu.





> Tactics has nothing to do with how fast Kakashi's eye can track movement. I highly, highly doubt that Kakashi, despite having no vision in his left eye, has better eyes than EMS Sasuke with perfect vision.



Tactics and intelligence can enable you to predict your opponent's next move and counterattack, which is what Kakashi has done far more than what Sasuke has. Besides, my main argument wasn't about your tracking point, which I do agree with.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Just to clear this up, in your expert opinion, Kakashi w/manga knowledge and Kamui would still be inferior to all the sannin in an individual match up?
> *Spoiler*: __


Individual match up, as in a 1v1, it depends on conditions; though the Sannin are going to win under more conditions than Kakashi. 

If they have knowledge of Kamui they can all game around it and otherwise overwhelm Kakashi completely, as outside of Kamui they are much stronger than him. In a no knowledge scenario Kakashi is likely too hesitant to bring out Kamui initially, for good reason, and pays the price being killed before he gets a good chance to use it offensively, especially if the match is at Mid/Long or w/ LOS Blockers. He could however win in a scenario where he has full knowledge and a Sannin doesn't have knowledge of Kamui, but it's still going to be a tough uphill battle for him and he could still loose.

But as an overall Shinobi it's no contest whatsoever, the Sannin are all superior and by a wide breath at that. And the reason for that is because Kakashi needs to use Kamui sparingly due to it's drawbacks, and outside of Kamui he is substantially out performed by the Sannin. So a trick Kakashi is hesitant to use at all and even when he is willing to do so can only use a few times is never going to allow him to perform up to the Sannin's standards in battle, in war, and on missions.

Same reason I wouldn't consider Gai a better Shinobi than say Hashirama, despite the fact that he could perhaps out perform Hashirama w/ 8th-Gate, as that is only 1% of the time and the other 99% he's getting out performed by Hashirama. Obviously not that steep of a difference here, but the example is there merely to illustrate a point.


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## KamiYasha (Mar 11, 2016)

Totsuka Blade GG. jk

Being Honest Prime Itachi rapes...

Sick Itachi, i doubt it.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2016)

If it's War Arc Kakashi, then Kakashi Kamui gg's him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 11, 2016)

Kabuto is a perfect sage was stated in the manga


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 11, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Individual match up, as in a 1v1, it depends on conditions; though the Sannin are going to win under more conditions than Kakashi.
> 
> If they have knowledge of Kamui they can all game around it and otherwise overwhelm Kakashi completely, as outside of Kamui they are much stronger than him. In a no knowledge scenario Kakashi is likely too hesitant to bring out Kamui initially, for good reason, and pays the price being killed before he gets a good chance to use it offensively, especially if the match is at Mid/Long or w/ LOS Blockers. He could however win in a scenario where he has full knowledge and a Sannin doesn't have knowledge of Kamui, but it's still going to be a tough uphill battle for him and he could still loose.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, I have my blinders on but individually, I think Kakashi has surpassed the sannin with his MS (I think the same thing for Itachi), at least after Kakashi's usage display in the War Arc. I mean even if the sannin had knowledge of the technique, at best they would try to block his LoS which would play to Kakashi's advantage since his go to move is always a clone feint, so if that turns out to be a RKB or just a clone in general, Kakashi creates opening for himself. 

Kakashi's fairly intelligent, I don't think he would have an issue adapting to his opponent, he's always been analytical and tactical, much more so than the sannin. He's easily one of the most versatile character in the manga (barring all the six paths sage-powered fighters).

I'd say you have to look at the whole picture for Kakashi, with Jiraiya I believe once he enters SM, Kakashi might be hard-pressed to push for Kamui but his fighting style is almost predicated on his opponent being stronger.


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## Saru (Mar 12, 2016)

I don't think that Kakashi is necessarily stronger than the Sannin, but I do think that he can beat all of them one-on-one under normal conditions (manga knowledge).

Kakashi lacks offensive presence. The Sannin all have Boss Summons, and two of the Sannin can spam summons of all shapes and sizes with ease, while the remaining Sannin has a Boss Summon that can split into hundreds of clones and is impervious to most forms of damage. Jiraiya can also make gigantic toads fall from the sky and create Boss-sized swamps. Orochimaru can spit up a tsunami of snakes quickly and with ease. Tsunade can create massive shockwaves with her fist if Sakura's Byakugou feat is anything to go by. Big and overwhelming attacks being associated with power is a recurring theme throughout the manga, and those sorts of attacks are something that clearly separate each of the Sannin from Kakashi. Boss Summons, Yamata no Jutsu, Mokuton, Bijuudama, Shinra Tensei, Susano'o, Really Big Susano'o... All of these are examples of what I would consider "overwhelming" forms of offense. Kakashi lacks that kind of offense, so he can only be expected to be so powerful, in my opinion. There is a distinction to be made between offense that is overwhelming and offense that is simply potent. The Sannin lack the offensive *potency* that Kakashi has with Kamui, but the overwhelming aspect of their offense (which Kakashi undeniably lacks) balances that out nicely, I feel.

Minato is a good counter example to the trend of "overwhelming" offense playing a major role in character's overall power, because his style revolves around speed (although Minato's speed is arguably "overwhelming"), adaptability, and precision, but he has sufficient offense in Hiraishin and he also still has Boss Summons. Kakashi has a more *potent* form of offense than Minato, but Kamui has far, far less utility than Hiraishin. Kakashi is also much slower than Minato (when Hiraishin is taken into account), which ultimately makes the application of speed in his fighting style less effective than Minato's. 


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As for Itachi, he has all of his bases covered in terms of battle power. Much like Kakashi, Itachi's fighting style is based on precision, but Itachi plays that game better than Kakashi does due to his skillset. Sharingan precognition is obviously extremely helpful in Itachi determining the most appropriate route to achieve a desired result in battle, and Itachi has two Sharingan to Kakashi's one as well as Uchiha Blood. Itachi also has the best shurikenjutsu skill in the manga, which serves as a testament to his precision. Sure, shuriken may sound like something which only fodder would be put down by, and it's easy to brush off, but Hebi Sasuke--the same guy who literally absorbed the power of a Sannin--had to make explicit preparations to counter Itachi's shurikenjutsu. Shurikenjutsu countered the shared vision of the Rinnegan. It's a precise and deadly form of offense that Kakashi lacks, and it's just as deadly as Minato's kunai slashes--the same kind that took out Obito--in terms of damage output. Speed is another element of a precision-based fighting style that Itachi has over Kakashi. All of Itachi's battles have placed an emphasis on his speed, and those which didn't placed an emphasis on his genjutsu. Not only is Itachi fast on his feet, his hands are so fast that he can make hand seals for Bunshin while also throwing shuriken fast enough for Sasuke to need prep to counter. Kakashi's hands are simply not that fast, and he's not as fast as Itachi is in terms of his Body Flicker either.

In spite of a precision-based fighting style, Itachi also has superior offensive presence in comparison to Kakashi. Susano'o would fall under the "big and overwhelming" category (a category which none of Kakashi's jutsu can be classified under), and it's also equipped with an extremely potent offense in the form of Totsuka. It's a two-in-one. In addition to Susano'o, Itachi has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu as potent (and versatile) offensive options as opposed to Kakashi's one form of potent offense in Kamui. Raikiri doesn't accomplish much that Itachi can't accomplish with a kunai. Raiden is a form of potent offense that provides something that Itachi cannot with his base arsenal, but it's a rather inefficient jutsu due to the fact that one Kage Bunshin and two Raikiri are needed to perform it. Efficiency is something that should be paramount in a fighting style that is based around precision. Lastly, there's the obvious fact that Itachi is a master of genjutsu--a very potent form of offense--compared to Kakashi who uses genjutsu occasionally. Kakashi isn't going to be able to use Sharingan Genjutsu to restrain a Sannin in the way that Itachi was able to. Yes, he fought Obito with Sharingan Genjutsu, but Hebi Sasuke did the same thing against Itachi. Not only is Obito's mastery of genjutsu lesser than Itachi's, fighting off Obito in genjutsu doesn't make Kakashi Obito's equal in that area. Kakashi is going to be able to cause distractions with his genjutsu, but Itachi is going to be able to completely restrain opponents with his genjutsu. There's a significant gap in the potency of their genjutsu.

With Itachi having all of these advantages and a fighting style that is very similar to Kakashi, Kakashi's superiority in ninjutsu versatility and marginal superiority in tactics (which is highly debatable) is not going to be enough to balance out the aforementioned inequalities. Not only does this show that Itachi is stronger than Kakashi overall, but it shows that Itachi is more likely to win in a fight between the two.

Just my 2 cents. I hope I got across the point I was trying to make, but I was typing on my phone and didn't really have time to revise my thought process.​


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## Empathy (Mar 12, 2016)

Neither has a great counter to the others' mangekyou sharingan, and with full knowledge, it probably comes down to who can successfully connect with their mangekyou technique first. I don't see a good reason why that wouldn't be Itachi. Not only is Itachi a natural born Uchiha, which means using the sharingan and mangekyou sharingan are less taxing to him, so he'd be able to start it up quicker, but Itachi's perhaps better at taking the initiative than anyone in the manga. In terms of efficiency and being proactive, I don't see how it could be argued that Kakashi's better. I don't imagine Itachi losing in a battle of jutsu execution speed.


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