# Itachi vs Minato (portrayal)



## Cognitios (May 29, 2014)

Welp, Kishi's two golden boys, who does he love more?
Itachi or Minato, who has more hype / better portrayal?
This is base minato. However if Itachi wins by a landside it is BM Minato.


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## RBL (May 29, 2014)

by potrayal, and kishi's favorite is itachi by a landside.

by feats, i'm still thinking full healthy itachi defeats minato.

BM minato is another story tho.


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## KeyofMiracles (May 29, 2014)

Minato is portrayed on a higher pedestal than Itachi.


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## Rocky (May 29, 2014)

Itachi has been complimented more, but I've considered Minato more impressive ever since he stopped a major threat to civilization with a _Kunai to the ground._ Itachi's portrayal has never been so...effortless.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 29, 2014)

By portrayal Minato is stronger and he'd win by feats with BM, but in base, healthy Itachi would probably win


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## Bonly (May 29, 2014)

As much as I like Itachi, Minato has a better portrayal for sure now.


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## Kyu (May 29, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Welp, Kishi's two golden boys, who does he love more?



Itachi. The fact that this is even asked is silly.



> Itachi or Minato, who has more hype / better portrayal?



Gunna take a stab in the dark and say Minato.


-Fourth Hokage
-Soloed a War
-Became a Sage
-Put a baby into Kushina's belly (title character's dad) 
-Saved his newborn son, his wife, and the village in a single night
-Saved the Shinobi Alliance twice
-Became the Perfect Jinchuuriki of Yin Kurama
-Hyped by Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Itachi, Tobirama,  A, & Kurama
-Resurrected alongside the strongest Edo Tensei
-Created noteworthy jutsu


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## DaVizWiz (May 29, 2014)

The writer raises Itachi onto a level he is incapable of performing on, in other words, he gives him portrayal that he cannot back up with his power. 

Minato, on the other hand, was given the right amount of portrayal. He is stronger than Itachi, he nearly solo'd a war by himself, mastered FTG, Rasengan, was working on Senjutsu, successfully became a Jinchuriki of Kurama and was named the 4th Hokage. 

Aside from that, Kakashi believed no one could surpass him (save Naruto), as did Ei, Jiraiya believed Minato was the savior, as did Ei, Hiruzen acknowledged his power by electing him over Orochimaru and he was one of the last ninja fighting against Judara - while Itachi was in the grave.

Minato is a Hokage, Minato is the father of Ashura's reincarnation, Minato mastered FTG and created the Rasengan, Minato tamed 50% Kurama and entered KCM, then BSM minutes into his reincarnation, Minato was called the savior of this world by several S-rank, reputable killer shinobi, Minato nearly became one of the few Sage Masters in this world, Minato saved the alliance from complete annihilation two times. 

Bottom line, he is a stronger ninja than Itachi and is portrayed as more important (Savior of this world, 4th Hokage, Senjutsu-dwindler, Fastest ninja of his time, un-surpassable).


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## Trojan (May 29, 2014)

> Welp, Kishi's two golden boys, who does he love more?


itachi, obviously.


> Itachi or Minato, who has more hype / better portrayal?


Minato





> This is base minato. However if Itachi wins by a landside it is BM Minato.


even armless Minato did better than itachi did in his entire life.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 29, 2014)

Minato has been hyped by the top shinobi such as jiraiya, A, obito, itachi, tobirama, hiruzen, bee etc. Even monsters characters like kurama gave him credit.

His feats of splitting up kurama, sealing him in his son while near death, outperforming legends like tobirama, being the trump card in a war his village was losing and saving his village twice just tops it off.

However kishimoto would probably lose consciousness due to laughter if you asked him who he loves more. That is obviously itachi just take a look at yata mirrors hype lol.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 29, 2014)

Minato has always had better portrayal. It takes a lot of exaggeration/reaching to assume Itachi's was equalised or above.


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## Nikushimi (May 29, 2014)

With Bijuu Mode, it's Minato by a landslide. Without Bijuu Mode, they're about the same.

Kishi seems to prefer wanking Itachi, though.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2014)

Minato is clearly portrayed as stronger if we consider each character at their best; it's not even debatable at this point (doesn't mean it's impossible that will change, but there is no argument there right now). I'm not really all that interested with comparing the two characters at this point in their other inferior forms and I'd have to reserve my judgment on those comparisons anyway until we hopeful get more info on: Hakke-Seal, Rasen/Flash-Dance, Spirit Weapons, and Stage 4 Susano'o.


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## Azula (May 30, 2014)

Minato of course, even while all the other edo tenseis have received life ending injuries (if they were alive) like getting bisected he has only got hands cut off


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## ARGUS (May 30, 2014)

portrayal wise and through feats minato is higher,,,, 
however that doesnnt mean that itachi doesnt solo GG ,,,,


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## crisler (May 30, 2014)

Author's potrayal - Itachi

Kishi always gives excuses for Itachis' flaws whether as a character or during battle, while he beat high class shinobis so easily that fans couldn't accept it, like raping oro as if he was some chuunin. This is pretty important to notice, because the author is deliberately showing how dominant one is in battle. It's the same method he used to show why Madara was more 'feared' by other shinobis when Hashirama was in fact stronger than him hands down.

Manga reputation - Minato

Minato solo'd a war, stopped the devastation of konoha that was right there. Feared by many. Itachi isn't known that much. 

Feats - In their peak obviously Minato is greater, but he never had access to those powers when alive so I guess I'd say it's kinda similar. Their feats are both great, and they had the exact tools that were needed to accomplish those feats. All their feat shows is that kishi loves them, but not who is stronger between them.

Overall - I dunno, I personally get the feeling that kishi likes Itachi more. he's brought down minatos' portrayal to show naruto/obito/madara is strong, when we don't need him to  explicitly show us that minato was weaker. even before getting destroyed by obito, we all know hashirama was weaker than him by his own admittance and hiruzens' conform. that's what kishi normally should do with his golden boys, but instead he just brought down minatos' reputation. 

The fact that he didn't do that with Itachi despite having practically the same role as minato to the main characters kinda tells me that kishi didn't want to waste itachis' portrayal more than minatos'.


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## ueharakk (May 30, 2014)

There's a difference between treating a character better and portraying a character as stronger.

Itachi is easily treated much better than Minato, as the majority of his fights involve him keeping his cool and soloing low difficulty.

On the other hand, minato is portrayed as significantly better as he solos and fights much more powerful people than itachi has, gets better power level hype, and performs greater feats than itachi.


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## Sans (May 30, 2014)

I don't recall anyone else getting praise from Kaguya.


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## Bkprince33 (May 30, 2014)

Imo there portrayed equally with the exception of (bm minato) back in part 1 the fourth was hyped as the only one who could take down oro, and itachi literally soloed oro with ease.

Jiraiya a sanin prays the fourth

oro a sanin praised itachi

the fourth beat obito

And obito held off on attacking the village while itachi was around showed he respected his power to a degree.


It's pretty obvious kishi used them as naruto and Sasukes benchmarks after the sanin as well.


So there portryal is pretty equal with the exception of bm minato


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2014)

I'd say pre-war arc Minato has better portrayal(when he was "that man").
Post war arc they are about the same.

Kishimoto loves Itachi more, and Itachi's hype and wank exceeded Minato's over the course of the manga.


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## Ersa (May 30, 2014)

Edo Minato > Edo Itachi >=< Living Minato > Sick Itachi by feats and even portrayal I feel.

Although Kishi loves himself some good ol' Itachi wank.


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## Sadgoob (May 30, 2014)

Itachi's been portrayed as smarter and is more frequently in control of situations. Minato has better feats of power, but Itachi's items have the best power hype. The author likes Itachi more.


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## BroKage (May 30, 2014)

Minato's portrayal fell into a volcano with the Juubi arcs. Has Itachi ever had a Sakura/Hinata-esque moment where he tries to be useful and then either gets owned with minimal effort or falls flat on his face without accomplishing anything? Because Minato had three of those.

The closest Itachi ever got to being similarly embarrassed was being chopped up by Kabuto but that didn't keep Izanami from happening.


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## ueharakk (May 30, 2014)

BroKage said:


> Minato's portrayal fell into a volcano with the Juubi arcs. Has Itachi ever had a Sakura/Hinata-esque moment where he tries to be useful and then either gets owned with minimal effort or falls flat on his face without accomplishing anything? Because Minato had three of those.
> 
> The closest Itachi ever got to being similarly embarrassed was being chopped up by Kabuto but that didn't keep Izanami from happening.



That's not necessarily portrayal, that's just kishi treating the character better.

For instance, pt2 Konohomaru could go untouched in the manga, and never have been shown to lose his cool if Kishi only puts him up against academy level opponents.  It's not just about who 'looks cooler', that's only a portion of portrayal, you have to factor in the situation and who their opponent is.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2014)

BroKage said:


> Minato's portrayal fell into a volcano with the Juubi arcs. Has Itachi ever had a Sakura/Hinata-esque moment where he tries to be useful and then either gets owned with minimal effort or falls flat on his face without accomplishing anything? Because Minato had three of those.
> 
> The closest Itachi ever got to being similarly embarrassed was being chopped up by Kabuto but that didn't keep Izanami from happening.



mmm,

getting cut in half by Kabuto's fingers. 
getting destroyed by the cave's rocks
getting Genjutsu'd by Tayuya

He also his his head with the wall when hebi Sasuke solo'd him. @.@
bowing down to the uchiha's police and Hiruzen.

I guess those what I remember. @>@


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> mmm,
> 
> getting cut in half by Kabuto's fingers.
> getting destroyed by the cave's rocks
> ...



Getting genjutsu'd by Tayuya doesn't mean anything. Itachi was also genjutsu'd by Kurenai.

Itachi got destroyed by cave rocks because he was trying to protect Sasuke. Thats more or less the same as Minato placing himself infront of Gai to tank the black orbs.

Itachi getting bisected is legit, but then Itachi was simply trying to lure Kabuto in to close the loop. That attack would have gotten anyone under those circumstances.

All in all, it still isn't as bad as the treatment Minato got as an edo. Actually being an Edo made Itachi look better and made Minato look alot worse. That alone tells alot.


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## Vice (May 30, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> All in all, it still isn't as bad as the treatment Minato got as an edo. Actually being an Edo made Itachi look better and made Minato look alot worse. That alone tells alot.



That tells us that Minato is battling juubi-jins that are like a half-dozen tier's ahead of anything Itachi could come close to.

It's not even remotely fair to compare Itachi's performance against Sage Kabuto to Minato against Juubito.


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## Phoenix Zoro (May 30, 2014)

Itachi is clearly Kishi's favourite, but Minato has the stronger portrayal and feats imo.

If I were to put it simply, I'd say:

BM Minato > Edo Itachi >= Minato > Itachi


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## Trojan (May 30, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Getting genjutsu'd by Tayuya doesn't mean anything. Itachi was also genjutsu'd by Kurenai.
> 
> Itachi got destroyed by cave rocks because he was trying to protect Sasuke. Thats more or less the same as Minato placing himself infront of Gai to tank the black orbs.
> 
> ...



Except he reflected that genjutsu easily, but he couldn't do that against Tayuya's genjusu except with Sasuke's help. Just to get cut in half a moment after that. 

- Except Kabuto was not attacking Sasuke to begin with. In addition to that, Minato was not even effected by the Gedu-damas at all, unlike itachi. 

- probably, yes. 

- I honestly do not see it like that. Even though I admit that he got some stupid moments indeed, but he was simply against the Juubi's hosts, and he outperformed all the other Hokages, and got a lot of feats. Not to mention kishi kept him with 1 or no arms the whole battles, unlike every other ET who were able to regenerate every time they get destroyed. 

Had itachi been in Minato's place, he wouldn't have been able to do anything like Minato did whatsoever.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Except he reflected that genjutsu easily, but he couldn't do that against Tayuya's genjusu except with Sasuke's help.


What does reflecting the genjutsu have anything to do with it  ? Itachi was never worried, and the genjutsu didn't accomplish anything at all. Itachi took control of the situation and ensured both him and Sasuke broke the genjutsu @ the same time.



> Just to get cut in half a moment after that.


Being caught in genjutsu and getting cut in half are not related.

I don't see your point.



> - Except Kabuto was not attacking Sasuke to begin with. In addition to that, Minato was not even effected by the Gedu-damas at all, unlike itachi.


It was an AOE attack, the whole cave was coming on top of them. Itachi took the safe bet and ensured Sasuke's safety. He was EDO so he didn't need to worry about being killed.
Same as Minato tanking the black orbs because he was an edo.
Minato not being effected by Gedu damas makes no sense @ this point so I am not going to comment on that.




> - probably, yes.


So it actually isn't as bad as it looks. Its not like Kabuto made Itachi drop down Susano'o. Itachi created the opening himself because it was a part of his plan.



> I honestly do not see it like that. Even though I admit that he got some stupid moments indeed, but he was simply against the Juubi's hosts, and he outperformed all the other Hokages,


Tobirama outperformed Minato by a significant margin both by his hirashin manuevers and strategic thinking.  Hashirama was being held up by Madara.

Minato only outperformed Hiruzen, who is confirmed shit tier and got outperformed by nearly every high tier who fought in the war.



> and got a lot of feats. Not to mention kishi kept him with 1 or no arms the whole battles, unlike every other ET who were able to regenerate every time they get destroyed.


Minato wasn't able to accomplish much with 1 arm though.
Minato's had 2 significant feats. One of the teleporting Juubi's bijuudama and the alliance later with Naruto's help.



> Had itachi been in Minato's place, he wouldn't have been able to do anything like Minato did whatsoever.


Conjecture.



Vice said:


> That tells us that Minato is battling juubi-jins that are like a half-dozen tier's ahead of anything Itachi could come close to.
> 
> It's not even remotely fair to compare Itachi's performance against Sage Kabuto to Minato against Juubito.



I agree. Minato had shitloads of backup and was out to kill


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## Eliyua23 (May 30, 2014)

Minato has been portrayed better overall by a good deal 

1. He defeated the man who Itachi had to obey 

2. Minato maximized most of his potential , where unfortunately Itachi climaxed at the MS which isn't on par with what Minato has shown 

3. Minato came in the war at a time where the enemies posed a much bigger threat than they did when Itachi did 

4. Hokage has been shown to be the highest position to be held in the manga , so much that its the main characters ultimate goal and surpassing them has been made a big deal.

5. Minato was thought to be the child of prophecy , the savior of the world, and unsurpassable except by Naruto 


To me this all leads to Minato having better portrayal in the manga or thats what Kishi intended , I mean in almost every battle kishi went out of his way to give him extra abilities, at best Itachi is fighting to be close , but anyone who argues Itachi is better needs to reread the manga and be drug tested immediately .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 30, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> I don't recall anyone else getting praise from Kaguya.



Never happened; to see that required reaching and exaggeration.



Komnenos said:


> It's probably the same level of reaching and exaggeration needed to put Nagato on Hashirama's level.



Luckily no-one has ever had to do that.

With Itachi on the other hand, hype/feats/statements are always exaggerated (complimented by immense reaching) to put Itachi on the level of Minato/Nagato/Madara/EMS Sasuke/Hashirama/Juubito etc. Depending on the poster you ask.


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## Bkprince33 (May 30, 2014)

Honestly i feel we read to much into this, kishi makes it painfully obvious there both equally "skilled"

itachi is more skilled then sasuke but sasuke has more power at his disposal

minato is more skilled then naruto but naruto has more power at his disposal


difference is minato and naruto can share kurama's avatar, while the brothers obviously can't share there eyes.


if itachi somehow had access to ems and ps he would be stomping shyt left and right, and its as simple as that.


there both skilled shinobi* minato has more power due to having access to kurama and bm, if itachi had the access to ems he would be right up there with the rest of the top tiers, pretty simple if u ask me.


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## crisler (May 30, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Honestly i feel we read to much into this, kishi makes it painfully obvious there both equally "skilled"
> 
> itachi is more skilled then sasuke but sasuke has more power at his disposal
> 
> ...



Well both were created to motivate the main char...and I believe kishi deliberately created those two as the 'shinobis that could reach much further level but chose not to for the good of his son/brother', giving them sacrificial traits that are considered 'noble'. It's why kishi had to kill them off at very young age.

So naturally one would expect them to be roughly equals in majority of the aspects except perhaps in things like reputation, etc which have nothing to do with strength. Unless kishi suddenly decides to break the balance between sasuke and naruto, which apparently now he seems to try to keep equal as a shinobi.


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## Bkprince33 (May 30, 2014)

crisler said:


> Well both were created to motivate the main char...and I believe kishi deliberately created those two as the 'shinobis that could reach much further level but chose not to for the good of his son/brother', giving them sacrificial traits that are considered 'noble'. It's why kishi had to kill them off at very young age.
> 
> So naturally one would expect them to be roughly equals in majority of the aspects except perhaps in things like reputation, etc which have nothing to do with strength. Unless kishi suddenly decides to break the balance between sasuke and naruto, which apparently now he seems to try to keep equal as a shinobi.



Exactly there parrells are so obvious, ppl forget kishi,  draws this for children and teens stop reading so much into it and just accept the story for what it is, I highly doubt kishi expects us to read this much into the story.

It's so simple both sacrificed there self, both was above sanin level at a young age, minato beat obito,obito held off on invading konoha because of itachi, and kishi even goes as far as making obito retreat from itachi in the latest movie, sasuke and itachi used Susano side by side, naruto and minato used bm side by side like it's crystal clear what the author is trying to portray lol


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## LeBoyka (May 31, 2014)

_He loves Itachi_, but has obviously given* Minato more feats.* 

PS: Healthy Itachi still wouldn't beat base Minato. Outside Susano (which Minato has a few counters for) he's got nothing on the Yellow Flash. Still don't understand why he's so overrated by Kishi and the fans. (More overrated than Minato for god's sake.)


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## Veracity (May 31, 2014)

Edo Minato >>>> Edo Itachi > Alive Minato = Alive Itachi. By hype, and basically by feats except alive Itachi loses to alive Minato.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 1, 2014)

By hype and reputation, Minato wins easily.. Just a few ...

Jiraiya - Called Minato the most talented shinobi in history.  Said everyone else paled in comparison.  Called Minato a One of a kind.  

Tsunade - She agreed with Jiraiya when he brought the above up.  

Kakashi - Said Minato could only be surpassed by Naruto.  This despite having fought Itachi twice, and being KO'd one of those times.

Ei - called Minato unsurpassable.

Killer Bee - Trembled at Minato's name.

Tsuchikage - Gave a flee on sight.

Anko - Knew Minato would stomp Orochimaru if he were alive during the invasion.


There are many more..


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## trance (Jun 1, 2014)

Both were praised as geniuses but back in Part I and early Part II, Minato was basically this unreachable benchmark among ninja. Like he was some sort of being with unfathomable power. Even when this hype lowered, he was still held in extremely high regard by Kage level ninja like Kakashi, Ei or Tsunade.


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## crisler (Jun 1, 2014)

Final Jutsu said:


> By hype and reputation, Minato wins easily.. Just a few ...
> 
> Jiraiya - Called Minato the most talented shinobi in history.  Said everyone else paled in comparison.  Called Minato a One of a kind.
> 
> ...



All those praises are easily countered, if we talk about it in terms of shinobi powers.

Jiraiya - It's his student. Duh...and Minato is a fine shinobi. just not the 'best' shinobi.
Tsunade - Same.
Kakashi - Minato was his teacher who taught him good lessons. This is kakashi who shit pants against oro then went against Itachi. We know how things went between Itachi and Oro.
Ei - His whole pride comes from his insane speed, and Minato apparently was faster. Raikage let Naruto go after he avoided his 'speed'. This guy is all about speed. Anyone whose faster would get the same praise.
Killer Bee - Was it out of fear? I doubt it. Rather the whole coincidence that Naruto had learnt rasengan, a skill benchmarked from bijuu dama, was trying to learn bijuu-dama. It was him being surprised at how 'good' minato was. Bee didn't shiver against madara, did he?
Tsuchikage - That's more like being a good leader cuz he's basically saying 'don't fight something you can't win'. Tsuchikage himself was probably not as strong as Minato, so obviously a rational leader would tell them to retreat.
Anko - What is this...this girl means nothing.

All of thoses praises came from those whose knowledge of the shinobi world is so narrow that it's not even funny. None of them knew Madara tamed the kyuubi, only guessed, none of them knew what rinnegan was really about, none of them knew how powerful the former founders of konoha were. none of them knew the truth behind uchiha incident, one of the most important event that happened in konoha. 

I'm not saying minato is below itachi cuz he's not (i think they're roughly equals), but those praises mean bullshit really. They're all biased in a sense, and as baseless as Iruka saying hiruzen was the strongest of the hokages. 

The only thing that those statements show us is that Minato had high, good reputation in the manga relative to Itachi, and that's not a surprise because only a few people knew about Itachi and his real powers, motives, which is exactly what Itachi wanted: to stay in the shadow.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2014)

> All of thoses praises came from those whose knowledge of the shinobi world is so narrow that it's not even funny. None of them knew Madara tamed the kyuubi, only guessed, none of them knew what rinnegan was really about, none of them knew how powerful the former founders of konoha were. none of them knew the truth behind uchiha incident, one of the most important event that happened in konoha.



Jiraiya knows about madara and his ability to summon Kurama when he talked to the frog, and so did Kakashi when he talked to Yamato, and when he went to Naruto after his battle with Sasuke at VoTE. Onoki fought madara so obviously he knew about him, and so did A when he told that Onoki fought madara. It's really irrational to think no one know about madara when even kid Sasuke knew about that battle and those statues. 
so I'm curious how do you know that none of them know anything.  



> I'm not saying minato is below itachi cuz he's not (i think they're roughly equals), but those praises mean bullshit really. They're all biased in a sense, and as baseless as Iruka saying hiruzen was the strongest of the hokages.



by your logic no one should take any hype from anyone because no one will hype anyone except if they know something about him.

We shouldn't take itachi's hype from the academy teacher, because he is his teacher.
we shouldn't take itachi's hype from Sasuke or Fugaku because they are his family. 
we shouldn't take itachi's hype from Kabuto or Oro because they want his body and Oro worked with him for some time.
we shouldn't take itachi's hype from Hiruzen od Danzo because he was their tool

...etc with every character...


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## Dominus (Jun 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya knows about madara and his ability to summon Kurama when he talked to the frog, and so did Kakashi when he talked to Yamato, and when he went to Naruto after his battle with Sasuke at VoTE. Onoki fought madara so obviously he knew about him, and so did A when he told that Onoki fought madara. It's really irrational to think no one know about madara when even kid Sasuke knew about that battle and those statues.
> so I'm curious how do you know that none of them know anything.



 and  couldn't believe that they were that powerful when they saw Madara use Perfect Susanoo and Tsunade is Hashirama's granddaughter and Ōnoki fought Madara in the past. You expect from Kakashi and Jiraiya to know about Hashirama's and Madara's full power? Those two used even stronger things in their final battle, Shin Sūsenju and Kurama covered in Perfect Susanoo.


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## crisler (Jun 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya knows about madara and his ability to summon Kurama when he talked to the frog, and so did Kakashi when he talked to Yamato, and when he went to Naruto after his battle with Sasuke at VoTE. Onoki fought madara so obviously he knew about him, and so did A when he told that Onoki fought madara. It's really irrational to think no one know about madara when even kid Sasuke knew about that battle and those statues.
> so I'm curious how do you know that none of them know anything.
> 
> 
> ...



As for 'knowing', Jiraiya only speculated that there were those who could control the beast and when the frog mocked at his imagination Jiraiya couldn't give him a clear explanation. Why? cuz he didn't know either if it's true or not. As for 'knowing' madara, maybe I didn't clarify, but I'm not talking about his names but what he was capable of doing. None of them even knew what Madara was truly capable of, despite his powers were unsurpassed by anyone but Hashirama. Oonoki knew about madara? No. He only saw the glimpse of his powers. Ei relied on oonokis' knowledge of madara, and we know how the result went.

Yes, none of the hypes that you've listed about Itachi should be used to support Itachi > Minato. It would support the idea that Itachi was a fine shinobi, like how those minato praises are fine if they stayed that way. It works only if the person knows about minato and itachi well enough to give them a fair comment, possibly the likes of Oro or Hiruzen, but then again Oro was obsessed with sharingan and Hiruzen probably didn't know their full arsenals. 

Unless we're talking about people like Hashirama and Madara, who are clearly shown in the manga that they're the strongest to have existed. Hashirama >= Madara works fine, as both know their full powers and both agress that Hashi has the upper hand. Itachi and Minato is a different case, and you can't just use random comments about them to support who's stronger or not.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> and  couldn't believe that they were that powerful when they saw Madara use Perfect Susanoo and Tsunade is Hashirama's granddaughter and Ōnoki fought Madara in the past. You expect from Kakashi and Jiraiya to know about Hashirama's and Madara's full power? Those two used even stronger things in their final battle, Shin Sūsenju and Kurama covered in Perfect Susanoo.



Yeah, but does that mean they did not know anything about him? 
Onoki new about the Susanoo and how to deal with him. Tsunade knows about his Fire jutsus, and she knows about Hashirama's healing power and his flower Tree...etc. The point is they are not completely ignorant about their power. They only seem to have no idea about their "strongest" jutsu.
but they knows about the others. 


> =crisler;50822654]As for 'knowing', Jiraiya only speculated that there were those who could control the beast and when the frog mocked at his imagination Jiraiya couldn't give him a clear explanation. Why? cuz he didn't know either if it's true or not. As for 'knowing' madara, maybe I didn't clarify, but I'm not talking about his names but what he was capable of doing. None of them even knew what Madara was truly capable of, despite his powers were unsurpassed by anyone but Hashirama. Oonoki knew about madara? No. He only saw the glimpse of his powers. Ei relied on oonokis' knowledge of madara, and we know how the result went.


- No, Jiraiya speculated that about Kurama's attack on the village, not about Madara's ability to do so. Even the frog knew about madara's ability. 

- Again, they knew about everything except his strongest jutsu in its final form. That does not mean that they had completely no idea about them. 


> Yes, none of the hypes that you've listed about Itachi should be used to support Itachi > Minato. It would support the idea that Itachi was a fine shinobi, like how those minato praises are fine if they stayed that way. It works only if the person knows about minato and itachi well enough to give them a fair comment, possibly the likes of Oro or Hiruzen, but then again Oro was obsessed with sharingan and Hiruzen probably didn't know their full arsenals.


how it would support that idea if we just should take those statements as  bias statements? 


> Unless we're talking about people like Hashirama and Madara, who are clearly shown in the manga that they're the strongest to have existed. Hashirama >= Madara works fine, as both know their full powers and both agress that Hashi has the upper hand. Itachi and Minato is a different case, and you can't just use random comments about them to support who's stronger or not.


why should we exclude those? 
We can say that madara is Hashirama's rival and friend since childhood. So his statements about him is BS and biased. No one should take them seriously especially that Gai exist and he is tiers above Hashirama's level as madara did not know anything about Gai or his father who can use the 8th gate for example. 

and yeah they know each others power, but they don't know everyone's else's full power. So they are pretty much the same case like everyone else.


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## Dominus (Jun 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Yeah, but does that mean they did not know anything about him?
> Onoki new about the Susanoo and how to deal with him. Tsunade knows about his Fire jutsus, and she knows about Hashirama's healing power and his flower Tree...etc. They point is they are not completely ignorant about their power. They only seem to have no idea about their "strongest" jutsu.
> but they knows about the others.



We don't know if they do, Tsunade and Ōnoki maybe do because they interacted with them, but others probably don't. Even if they do know about some of their techniques, they just heard about them and never saw them. It doesn't really matter when they don't know what they were *truly* capable of. That is again shown when Kabuto said that Hashirama was so powerful that nobody believed it's true and when shinobi in the war couldn't believe they were so strong, even then they weren't using their strongest techniques.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2014)

Though about those fodders, they were exaggerating, as Obito was also their, and he is several tiers above Hashirama and edo madara. @.@

anyway, my origin point was not about comparing him to those two, but rather we shouldn't discredit the statements just because the other person might be his rival, enemy, family. Since obviously he will be one of those categories by some way form or shape.


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## crisler (Jun 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - No, Jiraiya speculated that about Kurama's attack on the village, not about Madara's ability to do so. Even the frog knew about madara's ability.
> 
> - Again, they knew about everything except his strongest jutsu in its final form. That does not mean that they had completely no idea about them.
> 
> ...



- You're right, I did get that part wrong. Jiriaya and the frog did agree madara had that ability.

- That strongest jutsu is the biggest thing that separates madara from rest of the shinobis. That is the reason the gokage failed to seal him. It's like knowing everything about minato except his hiraishin. They didn't know madara had mokuton, rinnegan, and they didn't even know the strongest weapon Madara had from his EMS. that's close to knowing nothing.

- It's not a good evidence to support it really, but compared to using them as sign of superiority over others? it's better. 

- because when they grew up, it wasn't just a war between a select few but the whole world. The whole world was in war, and the uchiha/senju were always the best among them that nations had to hire one to fight another. and among them, madara and hashirama were the strongest. And as far as we know, there were no hidden monsters that kishi has implied, thus it's safe to say they were the strongest. madara himself admitted his inferiority to hashirama so we know who was number 1. And about the 8th gate, Madara definitely knew about them and I don't really count 8th gate or shiki fujin users as winners as it automatically kill themselves.


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## Krippy (Jun 1, 2014)

They are roughly equal overall. Itachi has the means to end fights quickly while Minato has support + firepower advantage.

Kurama and his jins are overrated as hell.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2014)

Krippy said:


> They are roughly equal overall. Itachi has the means to end fights quickly while Minato has support + firepower advantage.
> 
> Kurama and his jins are overrated as hell.



Brah the fox is an island-buster. I'm pretty sure that's far above anything Itachi could even begin to deal with.


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## Krippy (Jun 1, 2014)

Naruto is but Minato has yet to prove he can shell out as much firepower as his son.

And DC doesn't decide matches. Every individual jin is >>>> itachi in DC but that doesn't mean they can beat him. 

But Minato has a superior Edo Tensei so hes stronger on a technicality. :ignoramus


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Naruto is but Minato has yet to prove he can shell out as much firepower as his son.



As long as Minato has the same mastery that Naruto had 4 minutes after unlocking Bijū Mode, he should be capable of the same feat. I think it's a reasonable assumption at the very least.



> And DC doesn't decide matches. Every individual jin is >>>> itachi in DC but that doesn't mean they can beat him.



The only thing that allows Itachi to defeat any Perfect Jin bijū is Amaterasu, which isn't going to work on Minato for a few reasons.

Destructive Capacity, speed, and defense are the most important aspects of battle, and Edo Minato blows Edo Itachi away in all three categories.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2014)

Even IF Minato can't use TBB (which he did actually) he can simply make Kurama do it for him.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2014)

People need to understand there is a difference between thee best Shinobi and thee strongest Shinobi. All of Itachi's and Minato's hype is about them being thee best Shinobi, not thee strongest shinobi. The best Shinobi means the ones that have the most raw potential as they adhere closest to the ideals Kishimoto believes a Shinobi should embody. Itachi was willing to massacre his own clan for the greater good and Minato was willing to sacrifice his family for the greater good. Both of them had such astonishing talent with Ninja abilities that they reached incredible levels of strength at such a young age. Every other Shinobi that is as skille as them is older than them, if not much older than them. 

However that doesn't mean they were the strongest Shinobi. They could have been the strongest if they had that desire and lived longer. That's all that hype is suppose to mean.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2014)

Turrin

you need to understand when A said that no one can surpass Minato, he did not mean what Minato could have, but rather what he was when they fought. The same with kakashi and Jiraiya when they were talking about him. They were talking about HIS power when he was alive and between them, not as how he would be.

Your example is more suited for itachi because it was emphasised how he WOULD be if he took Sasuke's MS and had the EMS rather than the opposite.


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## Dr. White (Jun 2, 2014)

Ei was hyping Minato's speed. they were talking about speed and FTG and then Ei's says no one will surpass him, and then the highlighted moment of Naruto flickering past V2 like his dad did.

It be like if your dad was the best Hot dog eater in the world and I was like "Yeah Jim your dad was amazing at eating hotdogs, I couldn't even contend with him. No one will surpass him, not even I."

Does it really appear as If I am saying Jim's dad is the best fighter in the world? No clearly he will not be surpassed in relevance to what I was talking about in the sentence before.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2014)

He was not talking entirely about speed. U_U


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2014)

Hussain said:


> you need to understand when A said that no one can surpass Minato, he did not mean what Minato could have, but rather what he was when they fought. .


So took at look at the raw. 

Basically I'd translate it as: "He was a man that I thought no shinobi would surpass"

However I believe this is one of those things that a-lot is left out in translation, as otherwise it would not read smoothly in english.

Kishi has Ei use the word "アレ", which is a very in your face way of letting the reader know this is simply that speakers opinion (or in this case "was" that speakers opinion). Therefore this is one of the very clear instances that we know the author is not using Ei as a mouth piece. What's more it's a slang term used for the uneducated, which means it's a really dubious opinion at that. 

Furthermore Ei uses the word "思れされる", I translated it as "thought" (as did the online translation) because it flows better, but in reality it's more like re-think. Basically Ei is saying he re-thought he opinion on Minato. Which begs the question why did he re-think his opinion. Without context we could say it's because he saw someone stronger, than Minato (or a multitude of other things). But luckily Ei gives us that context in the very next panel - when he talks about Minato being the savior and this being wrong when he failed to handle Kurama well enough and died. 

Simply Ei opinion of Minato changed when he decided Minato was not the savior. Now let's bring this back to the context of "surpass". Again I translated it as "surpass" because it flows better in english, but in reality, "勝る" more accurately "to excel". Now what does it mean for one shinobi to excel another, does it necessarily have to be about "strength" I would say no it doesn't, as look at Hashirama he says itachi is a better shinobi than him - clearly Hashirama doesn't think Itachi excels him because of strength, but other intangible qualities. In this case again the context is clearly based around being the savior. Being the savior has never been all about strength it's been about having that intangible quality Naruto has to get others to follow him and do the right thing no matter what (never give up, guts determination, all that jaz). 

So I have to say Ei's statement is not about strength in the slightest, it's once again about being the best shinobi, rather than the strongest. Additionally even that is brought into question by Ei re-thinking this position and it only being Ei's opinion. 



> and Jiraiya


When it comes to Jiriaya, he says "器" which has to do with ability/potential/talent. Again it refers to Minato being thee best Shinobi, rather than thee strongest Shinobi. Even many of the qualities Jiriaya cites have zilch to do with strength, like looks, ec... And the reason I don't need to do much of an in-depth analysis is because, Shonensuki (better translator than I by far) already has:

Originally Posted by ShounenSuki  View Post
「四代目と比べられりゃ　誰だってキツイだろうーよ　なんせ　あやつは忍としての器は歴代一だ った… 術の才に溢れ　頭脳明晰…人望に満ち　まぁ…ワシ並みに男前だったしのォ」
"Being compared to the Yondaime would be hard for anyone. Anyhow, that guy's ability as a shinobi was first among all... There was no end to his ability with jutsu. He had a keen mind... Very popular. Well... he was a handsome man, like me."

Anyway, as I said in the earlier thread, I would interpret these quotes as saying that the Yondaime was the most talented shinobi ever



> The same with kakashi


I do not have a raw text to look at for Kakashi's, but another person who knows about the Japanese language did, and he said this:

Frankie "But wait! Didn't Kakashi say that only Naruto can surpass the Yondaime Hogake? Yes, Kakashi did. The comment can can be interpreted, however, as saying that Minato was the most talented shinobi ever."
"And while Kakashi did in fact state that Naruto is the only shinobi who could surpass Minato, it could mean that the Yondaime was the most talented and not (yet) the strongest."

Given the pattern even without seeing the raw text i'm 99% confident that Kakashi once again used 
the ambiguous "勝る", as in Naruto is the only one who can excel the Fourth, but again what does it mean to excel Minato. Again we need to look at the context. The context of that arc was Naruto training to master combining nature alteration with Rasengan, something even Yondaime could not accomplish. Given this I can safely say that once again "勝る" does not refer to strength, as Naruto mastering the combination of nature alternation with Rasengan, did not make him the strongest Shinobi ever (far from it in-fact). However what it did demonstrate is that Naruto's potential/talent/ability as a shinobi excelled his father's, as he was able to accomplish something Yondaime could not. 

So again it would be going back to who is thee best shinobi, rather than thee strongest. Minato was thee best Shinobi, until his son came along, and proved himself to be better in the Wind-Arc.

Looking at it again this is quite literally the same reason people stumble when it comes to Fukasaku's statement. As Fukasaku also says "超えたよう", which also means roughly "to exceed". And again how Naruto exceeded them is ambiguous and we need to look to the context. Again Naruto exceed them due to him demonstrating greater talent mastering Sennin Modo to an extent that Jiriaya didn't, and later we learn Minato didn't ether. That's why translators like Gottheim and Shounsuki said for years that this statement doesn't necessarily refers to strength and probably refers to Naruto surpassing Minato/J-man in certain techniques, not overall.

So really for the same reason that people are wrong about Pain-Arc Naruto > Minato in strength. People are wrong about Minato being > than all in strength. It's not their fault as it's something you'd only be aware of if you can read a bit of Japanese, but that's how it is.

Edit: Btw the same applies to Itachi, as all of his crazy praise is also about talent/potential and being the best shinobi. The only time the author talks about Itachi's strength (from what I can recall) is when speaking about Itachi within the context of the Sannin. Orochimaru couldn't beat Itachi and Itachi would struggle with Jiriaya. 

In both these cases Itachi and Minato's talent/potential as thee best shinobi is misinterpreted to being about their strength, ether intentionally (by fanboys) or unintentionally by who only have the online translations to go on. And i'm sure when Kishi finally says Sasuke 勝る Itachi, after Sasuke goes down the right path, fans are going to go nuts saying Itachi was >= SO6P Sasuke, but again it will be talking about something totally different. Itachi and Minato's potential/talent for the shinobi way far excel anyone else (but the MCs), however in reality Itachi's strength is around Sannin-"level" and Minato's probably is as well (though i'm a bit less confident in the case of Minato, as Kishi has avoided talking about his strength and is still holding out on us a bit "feat"-wise, no explanation of Hakke-Seal or Rasen/Flash-Dance)


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2014)

> =Turrin;50835841]So took at look at the raw.


 


> Basically I'd translate it as: "He was a man that I thought no shinobi would surpass"
> 
> However I believe this is one of those things that a-lot is left out in translation, as otherwise it would not read smoothly in english.
> 
> Kishi has Ei use the word "アレ", which is a very in your face way of letting the reader know this is simply that speakers opinion (or in this case "was" that speakers opinion). Therefore this is one of the very clear instances that we know the author is not using Ei as a mouth piece. What's more it's a slang term used for the uneducated, which means it's a really dubious opinion at that.


I still do not see how does that mean "what Minato would have been" rather than how he actually was.  



> Furthermore Ei uses the word "思れされる", I translated it as "thought" (as did the online translation) because it flows better, but in reality it's more like re-think. Basically Ei is saying he re-thought he opinion on Minato. Which begs the question why did he re-think his opinion. Without context we could say it's because he saw someone stronger, than Minato (or a multitude of other things). But luckily Ei gives us that context in the very next panel - when he talks about Minato being the savior and this being wrong when he failed to handle Kurama well enough and died.
> 
> Simply Ei opinion of Minato changed when he decided Minato was not the savior. Now let's bring this back to the context of "surpass". Again I translated it as "surpass" because it flows better in english, but in reality, "勝る" more accurately "to excel". Now what does it mean for one shinobi to excel another, does it necessarily have to be about "strength" I would say no it doesn't, as look at Hashirama he says itachi is a better shinobi than him - clearly Hashirama doesn't think Itachi excels him because of strength, but other intangible qualities. In this case again the context is clearly based around being the savior. Being the savior has never been all about strength it's been about having that intangible quality Naruto has to get others to follow him and do the right thing no matter what (never give up, guts determination, all that jaz).


But once again, that has nothing to do with what Minato could have been if he survived, but rather about what his power was. Also, I actually disagree with Hashirama's example, because he simply does not know anything whatsoever, but in A's case, he does know about Minato since they fought several times. 


> So I have to say Ei's statement is not about strength in the slightest, it's once again about being the best shinobi, rather than the strongest. Additionally even that is brought into question by Ei re-thinking this position and it only being Ei's opinion.



Even if we take it that way, if kishi gives so many ninja's opinion about his power, they strength each other. Since, it's not possible that all those ninjas came to that conclusion if he is not really THAT powerful! 



> When it comes to Jiriaya, he says "器" which has to do with ability/potential/talent. Again it refers to Minato being thee best Shinobi, rather than thee strongest Shinobi. Even many of the qualities Jiriaya cites have zilch to do with strength, like looks, ec... And the reason I don't need to do much of an in-depth analysis is because, Shonensuki (better translator than I by far) already has:
> 
> Originally Posted by ShounenSuki  View Post
> 「四代目と比べられりゃ　誰だってキツイだろうーよ　なんせ　あやつは忍としての器は歴代一だ った 術の才に溢れ　頭脳明晰人望に満ち　まぁワシ並みに男前だったしのォ」
> ...



1- I really do not see how does that have nothing to do with power! 
When Jiraiya says "his ability as a shinobi was first among all", "there was no end to his ability with jutsu" So what there is to the ninja then? 

2- Being the most talented ever does have to do with power actually. His talent is what made him exceeds Tobirama with the S/T jutsus, it's what made him able to learn the Uzumaki's hard sealing jutsus. What made him able to have perfect SM...etc, so the talent is extremely important in term of power as well. 


> I do not have a raw text to look at for Kakashi's, but another person who knows about the Japanese language did, and he said this:
> 
> Frankie "But wait! Didn't Kakashi say that only Naruto can surpass the Yondaime Hogake? Yes, Kakashi did. The comment can can be interpreted, however, as saying that Minato was the most talented shinobi ever."
> "And while Kakashi did in fact state that Naruto is the only shinobi who could surpass Minato, it could mean that the Yondaime was the most talented and not (yet) the strongest."



I actually think Kakashi's statement is probably about surpassing Minato in term of Rassengan. In addition to that, about this quote, he just said "it could mean" which means his opinion is not a fact. 
That's just their opinion, just like you and me have our opinions. 



> Given the pattern even without seeing the raw text i'm 99% confident that Kakashi once again used
> the ambiguous "勝る", as in Naruto is the only one who can excel the Fourth, but again what does it mean to excel Minato. Again we need to look at the context. The context of that arc was Naruto training to master combining nature alteration with Rasengan, something even Yondaime could not accomplish. Given this I can safely say that once again "勝る" does not refer to strength, as Naruto mastering the combination of nature alternation with Rasengan, did not make him the strongest Shinobi ever (far from it in-fact). However what it did demonstrate is that Naruto's potential/talent/ability as a shinobi excelled his father's, as he was able to accomplish something Yondaime could not.



I can agree with that. 


> So again it would be going back to who is thee best shinobi, rather than thee strongest. Minato was thee best Shinobi, until his son came along, and proved himself to be better in the Wind-Arc.



Turrin, I am not debating you about who is the "strongest" I know Minato is not the strongest as you may know that I take Kishi's words that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage. The thing is, 

1- The talent is extremely important and it was even stated by zetsu about the shuriken and the stone. As talent may defeat raw power.

2- You can't assume that all those things about talent, you simply can't. As kishi put Minato in a situations where power IS a necessity like in the War World, or even handling A and B at the same time, you simply can't beat a perfect host with a Kage by only being talented. You won't be feared to get "flee on sight" by only being talented. 

Oro was also extremely talented, but Anko and Hiruzen put Minato as a higher regard, was that to compare who's more talented? No, but rather to who's the strongest out of them... etc 


> Looking at it again this is quite literally the same reason people stumble when it comes to Fukasaku's statement. As Fukasaku also says "超えたよう", which also means roughly "to exceed". And again how Naruto exceeded them is ambiguous and we need to look to the context. Again Naruto exceed them due to him demonstrating greater talent mastering Sennin Modo to an extent that Jiriaya didn't, and later we learn Minato didn't ether. That's why translators like Gottheim and Shounsuki said for years that this statement doesn't necessarily refers to strength and probably refers to Naruto surpassing Minato/J-man in certain techniques, not overall.


I agree with that as well, I have tried to explain that for people for 6 years, but sadly they were saying I'm in denial, and when it came out to be true, they were screaming "asspull"  


> So really for the same reason that people are wrong about Pain-Arc Naruto > Minato in strength. People are wrong about Minato being > than all in strength. It's not their fault as it's something you'd only be aware of if you can read a bit of Japanese, but that's how it is.



about this point, as I explained above. @>@


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## LeBoyka (Jun 2, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Turrin
> 
> you need to understand when A said that no one can surpass Minato, he did not mean what Minato could have, but rather what he was when they fought. The same with kakashi and Jiraiya when they were talking about him. They were talking about HIS power when he was alive and between them, not as how he would be.
> 
> Your example is more suited for itachi because it was emphasised how he WOULD be if he took Sasuke's MS and had the EMS rather than the opposite.



I'm pretty sure both J-Man and Kakashi meant that no one could surpass the potential of Minato (And I'm sure Ei meant the same); clearly if Minato had lived, he would've rivaled Hashirama. (Mastering Rasengan by adding a nature element to it, mastering Sage Mode, and improving on his FTG.). After all, Minato pretty much represents what missed opportunity looks like. But I don't believe for a second they believed no one could ever surpass living Minato. 

_But this is off-topic_. We already know *Kishi loves Itachi more, but Minato has better feats and a better portrayal*. I'm still amazed how people believe Itachi can give Minato a good fight, when considering that Minato has very good counters to Itachi (Itachi has always been Sannin Level - never top tier Kage.). All they keep saying is Susano, Amaterasu, and Genjutsu (which Minato has plenty of counters for; whereas Itachi has very little in terms of actually being able to tag the Yellow Flash.). I'll admit both characters can be overrated at times, but it should be quite clear which one is better in a battle. This whole thread should be locked imo.


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## Kenpachi_Uchiha (Jun 2, 2014)

Meh Itachi/MInato is probably like Shanks/Mihawk. 

Itachi could never achieve the pinnacle of power because he would never take Sasuke's eyes.....but boy if he had EMS and Perfect Susano.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2014)

LeBoyka said:


> I'm pretty sure both J-Man and Kakashi meant that no one could surpass the potential of Minato (And I'm sure Ei meant the same); clearly if Minato had lived, he would've rivaled Hashirama. (Mastering Rasengan by adding a nature element to it, mastering Sage Mode, and improving on his FTG.). After all, Minato pretty much represents what missed opportunity looks like. But I don't believe for a second they believed no one could ever surpass living Minato.



Well, just because you don't think he is as good as they say he is, that does not make him any less
than what they said. And I don't consider Hashirama to be that great anyway. @>@

they could have simply state "he has the potential to be..." if they wanted to say that, but they did not.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I still do not see how does that mean "what Minato would have been" rather than how he actually was.


It has implications about what Minato could have been "strength-wise", however it saying at least that Ei thought he was the "best"-Shinobi. To simplify was the "best", could have been, but never was the "strongest".



> Also, I actually disagree with Hashirama's example, because he simply does not know anything whatsoever, but in A's case, he does know about Minato since they fought several times.


This is a simple case of Ei knows more, but Hashirama knows enough. 



> Even if we take it that way, if kishi gives so many ninja's opinion about his power, they strength each other. Since, it's not possible that all those ninjas came to that conclusion if he is not really THAT powerful!


When do any Shinobi give their opinion about Minato's power? Kakashi, Ei, Jiriaya, are all not talking about strength. 



> really do not see how does that have nothing to do with power!
> When Jiraiya says "his ability as a shinobi was first among all", "there was no end to his ability with jutsu" So what there is to the ninja then?
> Being the most talented ever does have to do with power actually. His talent is what made him exceeds Tobirama with the S/T jutsus, it's what made him able to learn the Uzumaki's hard sealing jutsus. What made him able to have perfect SM...etc, so the talent is extremely important in term of power as well.


Here i'll give an example. Let's say there was a 4 Year Old who mastered Henge. The village got attacked and the 4 Year Old used Henge to transform into the Hokage, letting assassins target and kill him instead of the Hokage. In doing so he saved the village.

One could also say his 器 as a shinobi is first among all, and so is his skill at Jutsu. Why? Because he mastered Henge at the age 4, which shows an incredible amount of talent/potential for Ninjutsu and the fact that he sacrificed himself for the sake of the village at such a young age shows he had an incredible amount of talent/potential as a shinobi. Enough where in someones opinion his 器 could be first among all. However the kid would still get fodderized by CE Kiba.

In Minato's case his amazing 器 as a shinobi probably does translate to a certain extent strength-wise, but it's more like a character whose first among all in terms of 器, is going to be super strong for their age -- which Minato is -- but it in no-way gives us any way to measure his actual strength, nor is his strength in anyway proportional to his first among all 器.

Edit: To give another more prudent example Naruto was already first among all in ability as a Shinobi as of the Wind-Arc, but in terms of strength he was only around Wind-Arc Kakashi "level". That shows how huge the margin is between being the best in 器 and that shinobi's actual strength can be.



> I actually think Kakashi's statement is probably about surpassing Minato in term of Rassengan. In addition to that, about this quote, he just said "it could mean" which means his opinion is not a fact.
> That's just their opinion, just like you and me have our opinions.


It is an opinion, but it's well in-formed by the text. In-fact it's ether that, or the statement just making no sense; as Minato clearly isn't the strongest ever and has been surpassed holistically by many.



> Turrin, I am not debating you about who is the "strongest" I know Minato is not the strongest as you may know that I take Kishi's words that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage. The thing is,


I know man I was just giving a run down of what the text meant.


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## Krippy (Jun 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> As long as Minato has the same mastery that Naruto had 4 minutes after unlocking Bijū Mode, he should be capable of the same feat. I think it's a reasonable assumption at the very least.



I don't believe he does. He doesn't even have his own Biju mode, just a darker version of the kurama avatar.

But that's my opinion.



> The only thing that allows Itachi to defeat any Perfect Jin bijū is Amaterasu, which isn't going to work on Minato for a few reasons.



It won't defeat him but he's not fodderizing it. Minato can't put (Edo) Itachi down without a mutual KO. A well timed, no knowledge totsuka stab is something Minato has to worry about.



> Destructive Capacity, speed, and defense are the most important aspects of battle, and Edo Minato blows Edo Itachi away in all three categories.



No, Itachi takes defense solidly. Amaterasu would force him to Hiraishin out of the avatar leaving him vulnerable if Itachi can anticipate (or manipulate) where he will teleport to. This is assuming Itachi can figure out Hiraishin in time.

Kaguya's will said he was invincible, anyway :ignoramus


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2014)

@Krippy

The manga very clear implied he could use Bijuu-Bomb here:
X


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Krippy
> 
> The manga very clear implied he could use Bijuu-Bomb here:
> X



No implication, Minato was actually using it.


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## Krippy (Jun 3, 2014)

Even if he could, I doubt it's at the scale of Naruto's, seeing how he's a perfect Jin and nothing implies Minato is.


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## Kyu (Jun 3, 2014)

Minato was more or less on amicable terms with Yin Kurama, as Naruto was with the Yang half. Both were even shown to enter Biju Mode damn near instantly.

They're both Perfect Jins of Kurama.


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Even if he could, I doubt it's at the scale of Naruto's, seeing how he's a perfect Jin and nothing implies Minato is.


He was using it as Munboy points out. And Minato was a perfect Jin just as much as Naruto was. Let's not make arbitrary distinctions. And BTW, it's very clear that Edo-Minato > Edo-Itachi


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2014)

Minato was the only character to doubt Tobi = Madara. Itachi believed it without question.

It is obvious who Kishimoto thinks more highly of.



Krippy said:


> Even if he could, I doubt it's at the scale of Naruto's, seeing how he's a perfect Jin and nothing implies Minato is.



Why wasn't Minato a perfect Jinchuriki?


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato was the only character to doubt Tobi = Madara. Itachi believed it without question.
> 
> It is obvious who Kishimoto thinks more highly of.


I wouldn't even both getting into that. Kishimoto think very highly of both of them as Shinobi. They are probably the 3rd/4th best Shinobi after Naruto and Sasuke, in Kishi's mind. But that has little to do with strength. In terms of strength even if it was debatable before, Kishi gave Minato such a huge power like half of Kurama, so it's clearly not debatable now.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I wouldn't even both getting into that. Kishimoto think very highly of both of them as Shinobi. They are probably the 3rd/4th best Shinobi after Naruto and Sasuke, in Kishi's mind. But that has little to do with strength. In terms of strength even if it was debatable before, Kishi gave Minato such a huge power like half of Kurama, so it's clearly not debatable now.



With Hiraishin, Uzumaki jutsu and even a still unrevealed "that jutsu". I can't see how the debate comes about.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 4, 2014)

They're equals and always will be. 
One isn't superior to the other, though each character would clearly do better against certain opponents.

Itachi and Minato are similar in many areas, actually.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 4, 2014)

I'd like to know where this "they're equals" notion comes from. I see nothing substantive supporting that notion.


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'd like to know where this "they're equals" notion comes from. I see nothing substantive supporting that notion.



it's purely nonsensical fanfiction as it has always been. Mainly because of their roles to Naruto and Sasuke.
itachi is about equal to Jiraiya (with Jiraiya being superior), as it was stated in the manga.

Minato and itachi have never been equal, and will never be.

For example, Naruto has the same personality as Jiraiya, the same as Hashirama. They all have learned SM.
They all act goofy some times and they seek peace. 

So, we can conclude with
Current Naruto = Jiraiya = Hashirama. Because they share so many similarities. 

and so on and so fourth. In reality, Minato and itachi have never been compared to each other at all.


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## Lawrence777 (Jun 4, 2014)

Edo Minato >> Edo Itachi > Minato-Itachi > Sick Itachi imo.

The acquisition of kurama made Minato incomparable to Itachi, but before-kurama I didn't see and still don't see a huge difference between the two. Portrayal wise or feat wise. 

Minato was a hokage and I think that does count for something within the context of portrayal, but Itachi has had his share of hype as well and as Fugaku's eldest son would of probably become  head of the Uchiha clan eventually had it not been for events within the storyline. 

I think there both close feat wise as well seeing as how both hiraishin and MS jutsu can make short work of even powerful "Kage-Level" individuals, but that's just my interpretation of the efficacy of the jutsu's they possess.


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## Krippy (Jun 4, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Minato was more or less on amicable terms with Yin Kurama, as Naruto was with the Yang half. Both were even shown to enter Biju Mode damn near instantly.
> 
> They're both Perfect Jins of Kurama.



If "perfect" implies they are simply on good terms then that's not what I meant.

I was referring to his proficiency with wielding Kurama's power.



Turrin said:


> He was using it as Munboy points out. And Minato was a perfect Jin just as much as Naruto was. Let's not make arbitrary distinctions. And BTW, it's very clear that Edo-Minato > Edo-Itachi



It would be at best a standard BD, nothing Itachi cant handle.

already addressed the perfect Jin mixup.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why wasn't Minato a perfect Jinchuriki?



See above.


If Minato could be scaled to BM Naruto it would mean that Itachi could be scaled to EMS Sasuke. Its clear Mangekyo and Bijuu powers are parallels in terms of power. Naruto has mastered Kurama's full power while Sasuke has mastered the Mangekyo's full power. Edo Itachi and Edo Minato are close but fall short due to a myriad of reasons.


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## Trojan (Jun 4, 2014)

How does that even make sense? 

No, the MS CANNOT be scaled to EMS obviously.  

in Minato's case BOTH are Kurama (who used to be one), both are the same size, and both have the same amount
of chakra, and both were actually one. How can that be compared to MS case exactly? 

Also, what did not Minato master about Kurama exactly? 
He can use the TBB, the chakra arms, the transferring chakra, the Rassengan...etc
so what left?


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## ueharakk (Jun 4, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> They're equals and always will be.
> One isn't superior to the other, though each character would clearly do better against certain opponents.
> 
> Itachi and Minato are similar in many areas, actually.



I'd argue that Jiraiya was suppose to be Itachi's equal and parallel, not Minato.


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## LeBoyka (Jun 4, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> They're equals and always will be.
> One isn't superior to the other, though each character would clearly do better against certain opponents.
> 
> Itachi and Minato are similar in many areas, actually.



As shinobi they are a bit similar. But with regards to actual combat - Minato has and always will be out of Itachi's league. Jiraya would be more suited to Itachi's league. So, yes, they are similar - but _Minato is obviously superior to Itachi_. 

*Summary*

*Base Itachi < Base Minato*
* Minato has FTG; Itachi cannot touch him
* Minato Speed Blitz
* Rasengan in CQC = GG
* Toad Summons
* S/T Barrier
* Genjutsu never used successfully on teleporters and speedsters. 
* RDS Shadow Clone Combo

*MS Itachi < SM Minato*
* Susano countered by outlasting, or placing kunai near Susano and teleporting in it = headless Uchia on a Kunai. Toad Summons, or Food Cart Destroyer, ends Susano as well.
* _SM enhances previous advantages listed in Base Itachi vs Base Minato._ 
* Amaterasu will not hit Minato
* Special Susano Weapons will not hit Minato
* Izanagi has not proven to be a trump card, and can back-fire.
* Izanami will not be activated, simply because the battle would be over _in a flash_.

*Edo Itachi < Edo Minato*
* Minato has access to *BM* = more firepower and enhanced physical abilities. 
* Minato can seal the Edo via RDS with Shadow Clone
* _Previous advantages also apply._

*Conclusion:*
Minato is and will always be superior to Itachi. Debate over; close the thread.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2014)

Krippy said:


> It would be at best a standard BD, nothing Itachi cant handle.


BM in general is something that Itachi can't handle


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## Magicbullet (Jun 5, 2014)

Honestly? Itachi. Was perfect, died perfect, lived again, still perfect. Knew only victory, never disgrace. 

Yup.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I'd argue that Jiraiya was suppose to be Itachi's equal and parallel, not Minato.



That would be completely wrong though.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jun 5, 2014)

If it's Base Jiraiya = Itachi I will be totally fine. SM Jiraiya however < Itachi.


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

Why do people think that Minato can teleport susanoo away/ teleport into susanoo?
teleporting into susanoo is suicide, it's a solid, you'd be teleporting into a brick wall and die.
as for teleporting susanoo, the only reason that worked with sasuke was because Minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body itself, he couldn't do it if Susanoo was completely encompassing him.


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## Veracity (Jun 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Why do people think that Minato can teleport susanoo away/ teleport into susanoo?
> teleporting into susanoo is suicide, it's a solid, you'd be teleporting into a brick wall and die.
> as for teleporting susanoo, the only reason that worked with sasuke was because Minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body itself, he couldn't do it if Susanoo was completely encompassing him.



Cause Minato can simply use ST Barrier to warp the Sussano away. It's that simple. As soon as Kuramas TBB came Into contact with his barrier it was warped away. The same applies to Sussano.

& Sussano is open in the center. That's why the users are able to stand and move in the construct.


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> Cause Minato can simply use ST Barrier to warp the Sussano away. It's that simple. As soon as Kuramas TBB came Into contact with his barrier it was warped away. The same applies to Sussano.
> 
> & Sussano is open in the center. That's why the users are able to stand and move in the construct.


Kurama's TBB was moving towards the barrier, as was the Juubi's TBB, if Itachi is just standing still can it still teleport him? Even so, we have been told the way Minato/Tobirama's S/T techniques work is by taking what is connected via chakra.
Basically is minato wanted to teleport someone or something he would need to do so by attaching his chakra to it. So lets say he wanted to teleport Susanoo, he would teleport Itachi also, because they are connected via chakra, that's why it is called a chakra construct.
But that's if the barrier thing even works. The barrier is a stationary shield that relies on something entering it. The barrier doesn't move around. Itachi would need to walk into the barrier in order to be affected. Which wouldn't happen to even the dumbest of shinobi. While I can see the barrier doing this with some of Itachi's long range attacks, it wouldn't happen with Susanoo, and even if it did Itachi would go with it.


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## Bonly (Jun 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Why do people think that Minato can teleport susanoo away/ teleport into susanoo?



He has canonly done such to the former.



> the only reason that worked with sasuke was because Minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body itself, he couldn't do it if Susanoo was completely encompassing him.



Minato needs his chakra to be in contact with something he wants to use Hiraishin with. If he has his chakra touching Sasuke's Susanoo in that situation then he'd be able to teleport it(Susanoo).


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Why do people think that Minato can teleport susanoo away/ teleport into susanoo?
> teleporting into susanoo is suicide, it's a solid, you'd be teleporting into a brick wall and die.
> as for teleporting susanoo, the only reason that worked with sasuke was because Minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body itself, he couldn't do it if Susanoo was completely encompassing him.



because the Susanoo is only a chakra that is open from the inside? 

no it is not, as Sasuke was put inside the Susanoo arm from itachi, and so did Sasuke to protect Naruto as well. We have seen team 7 inside of Sasuke's PS...etc

So what you said is simply baseless and wrong. 

- Says who? 
The Susanoo is only another jutsu, who said it's anti-teleporting?


> Kurama's TBB was moving towards the barrier,* as was the Juubi's TBB*, if Itachi is just standing still can it still teleport him? Even so, we have been told the way



What are you talking about? Than what was the 8tails doing in front of it? And why he did not teleport with the TBB then?


> Basically is minato wanted to teleport someone or something he would need to do so by attaching his chakra to it. So lets say he wanted to teleport Susanoo, he would teleport Itachi also, because they are connected via chakra, that's why it is called a chakra construct.



Do you mean like how he teleported Gamabunta as well when he teleported Kurama? 
or how when he teleported Naruto and Sasuke, he teleported Obito with them? 

It's obvious Minato can decide what he wants to teleport, whether all of them, some of them, or none.


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> because the Susanoo is only a chakra that is open from the inside?


Yes, but he can only teleport to places where he has tags. Does he have tags inside the susanoo if it up from the get go?



> no it is not, as Sasuke was put inside the Susanoo arm from itachi, and so did Sasuke to protect Naruto as well. We have seen team 7 inside of Sasuke's PS...etc


Is it possible that the user of susanoo is able to alter the density of the chakra of their own Susanoo, I would think so.


> So what you said is simply baseless and wrong.


You think it is baseless to assume a defense is solid? A construct that has been known and hyped for it's defense isn't solid? You honestly think that whenever something attacks it can go in as easily as a knife slices through butter?
It's not baseless to assume that a defense that has been hyped to the point that it has is solid, it's logical.


> - Says who?
> The Susanoo is only another jutsu, who said it's anti-teleporting?


I never said that it wasn't anti-teleporting, I said that if it did teleport Itachi would go with along with the construct. I said that S/T Barrier wouldn't do it if Itachi and the construct stay stationary. Do you think that Minato can use S/T Barrier like Pac-Man chasing little ghosts?
I have no doubt that Hirashin is capable of teleporting a susanoo, I doubt that Itachi won't go along with the susanoo. 
I also don't think that S/T Barrier works on stationary objects, considering the technique is stationary itself.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2014)

> [===Cognitios;50861689]
> Is it possible that the user of susanoo is able to alter the density of the chakra of their own Susanoo, I would think so.


such thing never happened. U_U


> You think it is baseless to assume a defense is solid? A construct that has been known and hyped for it's defense isn't solid? You honestly think that whenever something attacks it can go in as easily as a knife slices through butter?
> It's not baseless to assume that a defense that has been hyped to the point that it has is solid, it's logical.


Yes, and that's why Gaara said of madara's susanoo is like Sasuke's then they should attack from the inside rather than the outside. 


> I never said that it wasn't anti-teleporting, I said that if it did teleport Itachi would go with along with the construct.


Minato is the one who decide which one he wants to teleport. 


> I have no doubt that Hirashin is capable of teleporting a susanoo, I doubt that Itachi won't go along with the susanoo.


again, Minato is the one who decided that. Like when he teleported him self, but not obito who was touching him. Or teleporting Kurama without Gamabunta, or teleporting Naruto and Sasuke without obito...etc 


> I also don't think that S/T Barrier works on stationary objects, considering the technique is stationary itself


It did to the Juubi's TBB, so you are wrong again.


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> Minato needs his chakra to be in contact with something he wants to use Hiraishin with. If he has his chakra touching Sasuke's Susanoo in that situation then he'd be able to teleport it(Susanoo).


Sasuke's Susanoo and him share the same chakra, it'd be indistinguishable and Sasuke would teleport with it.
Even if Minato were to teleport it, he would show a level of fatigue, considering the last time he did it with Kyuubi he was visibly fatigued. I would say Itachi's Susanoo is around 30% the size of Kyuubi, considering it was about the size of Oro's 8 Branche Technique, which is around the same size of a boss summon, which is around the same size of a Bijuu. I'd place 25% of the size of Kyuubi as a minimum, 60% as a maximum though.


> He has canonly done such to the former.


Can I have a scan? I believe that it happened, but doing so with an ally is a completely different thing than doing it with an enemy. Obviously a person using susanoo can allow people to enter the construct, but it wouldn't be a defense if anyone could just walk in it.
I think a much more likely option is the user is able to manipulate the density of their own construct, Susanoo has shown different levels of density throughout the series, users bringing allies into their own Susanoo, to it tanking powerful attacks like AT. That would also account for why people walk so freely in susanoo, if it is in a gaseous form where the user is then he could move around freely, then Susanoo becomes a solid as it goes on.
Obviously Susanoo is a solid, it wouldn't be a defense otherwise. The only issue is there is inconsistancies on the density of the construct, while others are assuming the weakest density is default, I place a theory that states that the user can alter the density, thus explaining all the consistencies in the density of the construct.


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> such thing never happened. U_U


So Susanoo is a liquid, gas, and solid all at the same time? okay


> Yes, and that's why Gaara said of madara's susanoo is like Sasuke's then they should attack from the inside rather than the outside.


Yes and how did he do so? By using sand that was already where Susanoo was a less dense form and taking Madara out. Madara's not dumb, he doesn't want to be smashed by his own susanoo so he altered the density so he wouldn't be smashed into the solid wall that was his susanoo.


> Minato is the one who decide which one he wants to teleport.


I'm not denying that, I'm arguing if it is possible. I'm giving you all these reasons why it shouldn't be possible, yet your only argument are feats that I have proven are situation, you show no counter argument thus I assume you are unable to adapt to new information. 


> again, Minato is the one who decided that. Like when he teleported him self, but not obito who was touching him. Or teleporting Kurama without Gamabunta, or teleporting Naruto and Sasuke without obito...etc


Okay, your comparing apples to oranges. Itachi = Susanoo, they have the same chakra, they are in the same form, they are connected, it's the concept of an avatar. Which is what susanoo is, it's a chakra avatar, Itachi has the same chakra as Susanoo. Kurama doesn't have the same chakra as Gamabunta, Naruto/Sasuke don't have the same chakra as Obito.


> It did to the Juubi's TBB, so you are wrong again.


You do realize that Juubi's TBB was not statonary, right?
It was moving in a linear direction, it would not be difficult for Minato to predict where it was going and then set up a barrier to teleport it. My argument is that S/T barrier cannot teleport a stationary object. Using Juubi's TBB as an argument for saying that S/T Barrier can teleport stationary objects makes no sense at all considering it was moving in a linear direction.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2014)

> =Cognitios;50861883]So Susanoo is a liquid, gas, and solid all at the same time? okay


Well, trying to put it this way won't change what happened in the manga, no? 


> Yes and how did he do so? By using sand that was already where Susanoo was a less dense form and taking Madara out. Madara's not dumb, he doesn't want to be smashed by his own susanoo so he altered the density so he wouldn't be smashed into the solid wall that was his susanoo.


I do not from where you come with those thing honestly, but for the sake of the argument, and from what I understood of your post is even the Susanoo user would get destroyed if the Susanoo is solid from the inside, in that case, if Minato teleported inside the Susanoo, itachi won't make it solid because he will get destroyed as well.

Did I understand that correctly? 


> I'm not denying that, I'm arguing if it is possible. I'm giving you all these reasons why it shouldn't be possible, yet your only argument are feats that I have proven are situation, you show no counter argument thus I assume you are unable to adapt to new information.



Feats is important, and both feats and hype suggest the same thing. What you said was not even hinted in the manga to begin with. It's only assumptions, which cannot be take as proves.  


> Okay, your comparing apples to oranges. Itachi = Susanoo, they have the same chakra, they are in the same form, they are connected, it's the concept of an avatar. Which is what susanoo is, it's a chakra avatar, Itachi has the same chakra as Susanoo. Kurama doesn't have the same chakra as Gamabunta, Naruto/Sasuke don't have the same chakra as Obito.



itachi is the Susanoo?  
Well, then Sasuke is also his Susanoo as well? 
in the case, he still did get separated from his susanoo in chapter 640 or around that when Minato saved him. 

and I'm not sure how did Gaara separated madara from the Susanoo, if the Susanoo is madara either.  


> You do realize that Juubi's TBB was not statonary, right?
> It was moving in a linear direction, it would not be difficult for Minato to predict where it was going and then set up a barrier to teleport it. My argument is that S/T barrier cannot teleport a stationary object. Using Juubi's TBB as an argument for saying that S/T Barrier can teleport stationary objects makes no sense at all considering it was moving in a linear direction.



I just mentioned a thousand time that the 8tails was in front of it stopping it.  
so why did the TBB got teleported when it was being stopped by the 8tails? 
and if it was actually moving and moving the 8tails with it, then why the latter did not teleport with
the TBB?


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> Well, trying to put it this way won't change what happened in the manga, no?


I'm not trying to change what happened in the manga, I'm trying to explain it.
That's part of the reason that we have a debate thread, to discuss and try to explain what happens in a manga.


> I do not from where you come with those thing honestly, but for the sake of the argument, and from what I understood of your post is even the Susanoo user would get destroyed if the Susanoo is solid from the inside, in that case, if Minato teleported inside the Susanoo, itachi won't make it solid because he will get destroyed as well.
> 
> Did I understand that correctly?


Let me get this straight, you are incapable of understanding my argument, or just unwilling, yet you argue it anyway?
My point is Minato must have something tagged, or a tag in order to teleport to it. The outer shell of Susanoo when in a 1v1 fight would be solid. It's illogical to think that in a 1v1 scenario Itachi would want his enemy to get in his susanoo. Minato can't just place a tag on susanoo and teleport inside the shell.
I'll put it in simpler terms, lets say there is a wall that Minato tags. Minato then teleports to that tag, he will teleport on the side of the wall he tagged, correct?



> itachi is the Susanoo?
> Well, then Sasuke is also his Susanoo as well?
> in the case, he still did get separated from his susanoo in chapter 640 or around that when Minato saved him.
> 
> and I'm not sure how did Gaara separated madara from the Susanoo, if the Susanoo is madara either.


Once again you take certain statements out of context and manipulate them to your own accord. Itachi's chakra = Susanoo's chakra, I apologize, I did not know I would have to get into something so specific. In 640 that was different, Minato had his hand on sasuke, not the susanoo. Sasuke was teleported because minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body. 



> I just mentioned a thousand time that the 8tails was in front of it stopping it.
> so why did the TBB got teleported when it was being stopped by the 8tails?
> and if it was actually moving and moving the 8tails with it, then why the latter did not teleport with
> the TBB?


no, you didn't mention that at all. But the TBB wasn't stopped, it was stopping, thus in the process of halting movement, in the process of halting movement means it is still moving, thus not stationary.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2014)

> =Cognitios;50862203]I'm not trying to change what happened in the manga, I'm trying to explain it.
> That's part of the reason that we have a debate thread, to discuss and try to explain what happens in a manga.


Well, true. @>@
but, once again, debating need proves my dear. 
anyway, I am sorry if that sounded rude. Really did not mean that. ^^


> Let me get this straight, you are incapable of understanding my argument, or just unwilling, yet you argue it anyway?
> My point is Minato must have something tagged, or a tag in order to teleport to it. The outer shell of Susanoo when in a 1v1 fight would be solid. It's illogical to think that in a 1v1 scenario Itachi would want his enemy to get in his susanoo. Minato can't just place a tag on susanoo and teleport inside the shell.
> I'll put it in simpler terms, lets say there is a wall that Minato tags. Minato then teleports to that tag, he will teleport on the side of the wall he tagged, correct?



No, not correct. Because the tags have a radius so to speak. So, if Minato put a tag on the actual shell of the Susanoo, he can teleport in front of it, inside of it, or
Link removed

Minato teleported in the middle of that house, was the Kunai thrown on that rug? No, it was far on (next to?) the walls. Yet, he still managed to teleport there, so on other words he does not appear EXACTLY at the tages. 

EX 2: 
Link removed

The TBB did not hit Minato's Kunai to get teleported, but the barrier was distanced from the Kunai.

Ex3:
Link removed

The tag was on this Guy's foot, but Minato teleported to him from behind.

Ex4:
Link removed
The Kunai was near shino and the his team. But, do you see Minato near to them?
No, he was far away from them. 

I hope the idea is clear to you. @>@

Once again you take certain statements out of context and manipulate them to your own accord. Itachi's chakra = Susanoo's chakra, I apologize, I did not know I would have to get into something so specific. In 640 that was different, Minato had his hand on sasuke, not the susanoo. Sasuke was teleported because minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body. 

how it's out of context when you literally said


> tachi = Susanoo,


I am not psychic (?)

- Ok, then why did not the susanoo was teleported with his as well since it's his chakra? 



> no, you didn't mention that at all. But the TBB wasn't stopped, it was stopping, thus in the process of halting movement, in the process of halting movement means it is still moving, thus not stationary.




maybe you did not see the edit then. U_U
even though I always mention that when I debate about the Barrier vs the Buddha.  

- Then why the 8tails was not teleported with it since he was moving as well according to you?


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> Well, true. @>@
> but, once again, debating need proves my dear.
> anyway, I am sorry if that sounded rude. Really did not mean that. ^^


I have shown "proves" by which I think you mean proof.
I have given very logical arguments yet you deny them without any real argument.



> No, not correct. Because the tags has a radius so to speak. So, if Minato put a tag on the actual shell of the Susanoo, he can teleport in front of it, inside of it, are any where around that radius. For example, in this page
> Link removed
> 
> Minato teleported in the middle of that house, was the Kunai thrown on that rug? No, it was far on (next to?) the walls. Yes, he still managed to teleport there, so on other words he does not appear EXACTLY at the tages.
> ...


A radius, yes, but all of those examples show an open space, none of them ever show Minato teleporting inside an object when his tag is on the other side. Yes there is a radius, however it is only if there is an open space surrounding the tag. 

Once again you take certain statements out of context and manipulate them to your own accord. Itachi's chakra = Susanoo's chakra, I apologize, I did not know I would have to get into something so specific. In 640 that was different, Minato had his hand on sasuke, not the susanoo. Sasuke was teleported because minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body. 



> how it's out of context when you literally said
> I am not psychic (?)
> 
> - Ok, then why did not the susanoo was teleported with his as well since it's his chakra?


You don't have to be psychic, it was an automatic assumption I assumed that I thought you'd be able to pick up, I apologize that I was incorrect.
Simple, Sasuke deactivated Susanoo.



> maybe you did not see the edit then. U_U
> even though I always mention that when I debate about the Barrier vs the Buddha.
> 
> - Then why the 8tails was not teleported with it since he was moving as well according to you?


I usually don't look at edits, they are used when people either have their grammar incorrect and changed or who realize their argument was wrong and want to prevent further embarrassment.
The 8 Tails wasn't teleported because Minato placed the S/T barrier directly in front of him.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 5, 2014)

> =Cognitios;50862559]I have shown "proves" by which I think you mean proof.
> I have given very logical arguments yet you deny them without any real argument.


What you think is logical is not necessarily logical for others, that's why. 


> A radius, yes, but all of those examples show an open space, none of them ever show Minato teleporting inside an object when his tag is on the other side. Yes there is a radius, however it is only if there is an open space surrounding the tag.


Because he was not in a situation like that, so why would he use it like that? 
and if there is a radius, then no, that means Minato can teleport to anywhere inside that radius . 



> Simple, Sasuke deactivated Susanoo.


Sasuke is faster than FTG now? 
Please, enlighten us with the scan that you saw Sasuke deactivating his Susanoo.. 
because he surely was not in a situation where he would make himself unprotected for God knows reason. 


> The 8 Tails wasn't teleported because Minato placed the S/T barrier directly in front of him.


Please, show us the scan that you saw Minato making the barrier appears directly in front of him
(despite the 8tails was touching the TBB directly, so there was not a space to put the barrier in between. )


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## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> What you think is logical is not necessarily logical for others, that's why.


Then why don't I ask what others think?
Right now the only person who has spoken up about illogicality is you, but Dr. White messaged earlier in the thread with a comment that makes me think he thought you were being illogical.


> Because he was not in a situation like that, so why would he use it like that?
> and if there is a radius, then no, that means Minato can teleport to anywhere inside that radius .


I doubt that it would, while this has not happened before I would date argue someone who has more suited to getting through susanoo should have fought Madara, instead of Hashirama. Minato could have easily ended Madara if he could have done what you so claim.
As for the radius, things can disturb a radius. And considering the size of Itachi's Susanoo I dare to argue that the amount that is solid would overcome Minato's radius.


> Sasuke is faster than FTG now?
> Please, enlighten us with the scan that you saw Sasuke deactivating his Susanoo..
> because he surely was not in a situation where he would make himself unprotected for God knows reason.


No, but deactivation of susanoo speed is near instantaneous as seen when Itachi was able to activate it faster than lightning.
As for the scan of Sasuke deactivating susanoo, there isn't one, but there also isn't a scan that shows some random susanoo construct. Thus it is logical to assume he deactivated it as it is no longer there.



> Please, show us the scan that you saw Minato making the Susanoo appears directly in front os him
> (despite the 8tails was touching the TBB directly, so there was not a space to put the barrier in between. )


Susanoo has no part in the Juubi TBB argument.
As for how it happened,
Link removed
Look at the top panel, you see how the smoke goes in a line where the TBB just was?
That was where the S/T barrier was. but to be perfectly honest it was never even stated to be S/T barrier. It could have been Hirashin easily.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 5, 2014)

> =Cognitios;50862755]Then why don't I ask what others think?


I did not tell you don't ask. 
you said your argument is logical, and I told you just because you think that it does not mean it's like
this to everyone, and that's why I'm arguing with you. Anyway, that's so pointless. 


> I doubt that it would, while this has not happened before I would date argue someone who has more suited to getting through susanoo should have fought Madara, instead of Hashirama. Minato could have easily ended Madara if he could have done what you so claim.
> As for the radius, things can disturb a radius. And considering the size of Itachi's Susanoo I dare to argue that the amount that is solid would overcome Minato's radius.


Madara is Hashirama's rival, and linked to him, so obviously kishi would chose madara.
Minato is Obito's teacher, and Naruto's father, and that's why he ended up with them. Kishi do things
for the plot, not because it does make sense. Also, if kishi putted Minato against madara, then all the SA would have been killed by now because no one other than Minato would have been able to get them out of the barrier. 

- itachi's Susanoo is not that great of a size though. In addition, Minato throw his Kunai's all over the place, what are the chances that itachi will move and there is not Kunai at all around? 



> No, but deactivation of susanoo speed is near instantaneous as seen when Itachi was able to activate it faster than lightning.
> As for the scan of Sasuke deactivating susanoo, there isn't one, but there also isn't a scan that shows some random susanoo construct. Thus it is logical to assume he deactivated it as it is no longer there.


my dear. Sasuke couldn't see anything because of Obito's hands. Now, he knows that he is being
attacked by obito, why would he deactivate the ONLY thing to protect his LIFE??? 

If I have a sword, and you have a shield, would you throw the shield away to make it easier for me to kill you? 


> Susanoo has no part in the Juubi TBB argument.
> As for how it happened,
> Link removed
> Look at the top panel, you see how the smoke goes in a line where the TBB just was?
> That was where the S/T barrier was. but to be perfectly honest it was never even stated to be S/T barrier. It could have been Hirashin easily



If you take a closer look, the 8tails hands are inside that smoke, so did his hand (that part) disappeared with the TBB? No, it did not. 

The TBB apparently "hot" from my debate someone else when he showed that the TBB is hot to the point it milted the rocks, so the smoke is because of the high temperature, or it can simply be because of the distraction it did, as the smoke it also around the 8tails, so was the barrier there? 

- No, it couldn't have been FTG because Minato did not touch directly, nor did he had any of his chakra inside that TBB. 

anyway, I'm starting to get tired. U_U

thank you for your time. U_U
I think we will only agree to disagree after all. U_U


----------



## Cognitios (Jun 5, 2014)

> I did not tell you don't ask.
> you said your argument is logical, and I told you just because you think that it does not mean it's like
> this to everyone, and that's why I'm arguing with you. Anyway, that's so pointless.


I never said you did, I was just going to ask for a second opinion.


> Madara is Hashirama's rival, and linked to him, so obviously kishi would chose madara.
> Minato is Obito's teacher, and Naruto's father, and that's why he ended up with them. Kishi do things
> for the plot, not because it does make sense. Also, if kishi putted Minato against madara, then all the SA would have been killed by now because no one other than Minato would have been able to get them out of the barrier.


So if a statement doesn't make sense we can attribute that to plot too, correct? 



> - itachi's Susanoo is not that great of a size though. In addition, Minato throw his Kunai's all over the place, what are the chances that itachi will move and there is not Kunai at all around?


[X]
Absolutely tiny.



> my dear. Sasuke couldn't see anything because of Obito's hands. Now, he knows that he is being
> attacked by obito, why would he deactivate the ONLY thing to protect his LIFE???
> 
> If I have a sword, and you have a shield, would you throw the shield away to make it easier for me to kill you?



yes because ribcage susanoo  on his back, not his front, his back, was totally his best defense. If he really wanted to defend himself he'd go full susanoo. 
That's not exactly the right analogy, the right analogy is I have a teleportation beam right beside of me, with a shield on my back, in front of me is a someone throwing a shield. As for him being defenseless, lol Sasuke can activate full Susanoo any time he wants. It's a conservation of chakra.



> If you take a closer look, the 8tails hands are inside that smoke, so did his hand (that part) disappeared with the TBB? No, it did not.


Hands do have this function called mobility. If I am pushing something back, like Hachibi was, and suddenly that thing disappears my hands will jutt forward.


> The TBB apparently "hot" from my debate someone else when he showed that the TBB is hot to the point it milted the rocks, so the smoke is because of the high temperature, or it can simply be because of the distraction it did, as the smoke it also around the 8tails, so was the barrier there?


Don't bring up a debate from someone else in this debate unless the arguments are the same, which in this case they are not.


> - No, it couldn't have been FTG because Minato did not touch directly, nor did he had any of his chakra inside that TBB.


You mean like a kunai he could have thrown?


> anyway, I'm starting to get tired. U_U
> 
> thank you for your time. U_U
> I think we will only agree to disagree after all. U_U


If you are going to quit this argument don't bring it up. It happens every time we have this debate, You say you are "tired" and quit, to me that shows you have run out of suitable arguments. Then we start it over the next time. Either continue a debate until a conclusion or just be man enough to admit you are wrong, don't run away saying you are tired, the internet will be here when you aren't tired anymore.


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## LeBoyka (Jun 5, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Why do people think that Minato can teleport susanoo away/ teleport into susanoo?
> teleporting into susanoo is suicide, it's a solid, you'd be teleporting into a brick wall and die.
> as for teleporting susanoo, the only reason that worked with sasuke was because Minato had direct contact with Sasuke's body itself, he couldn't do it if Susanoo was completely encompassing him.



*A*: If being inside Susano equates to suicide, then why didn't Team 7 die in recent chapters? It's just chakra - with an open center (_which is why Gaara was able to pull Edo Madara out of it. If it were a solid, that would not happen._ Susano is merely a very strong chakra shell). 

*B*: It's been stated, clearly, that Minato needs to be in contact with a person's chakra to teleport them and their chakra. 

Minato can, if he wanted to, enter or warp Susano away. Case closed. 

Truth be told, Itachi's Susano is not a real threat to Minato. This thread needs to be closed - Itachi will never be on Minato's level. Itachi is loved more by Kishi, but Minato has a better portrayal, feat wise.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 10, 2014)

Krippy said:


> If Minato could be scaled to BM Naruto it would mean that Itachi could be scaled to EMS Sasuke. Its clear Mangekyo and Bijuu powers are parallels in terms of power. Naruto has mastered Kurama's full power while Sasuke has mastered the Mangekyo's full power. Edo Itachi and Edo Minato are close but fall short due to a myriad of reasons.



He was proficient with Kurama's powers.

Itachi could never be scaled to EMS Sasuke because first he lacks the superior Choku Tomoe. Second he lacks the EMS and Sasuke's superior MS skills (like Kagutsuchi).

Minato literally had the other half of Naruto's power. The only difference being that he lacked Asura's chakra, which obviously reacted to BM. 

You're probably skewing the significance of the parallels. EMS Sasuke felt Naruto had more power than him when he saw BM in action. 

You're trying too hard to equalise Itachi and Minato. From what we know and saw, Itachi fell short because he has inferior MS skill relative to Sasuke with matching (horrible) stamina. Minato literally had half of Naruto's power. You'll find that the main differentiate was that Naruto could merge SM with his BM and Minato obviously cannot do so efficiently.


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## Cognitios (Jun 10, 2014)

> A: If being inside Susano equates to suicide, then why didn't Team 7 die in recent chapters? It's just chakra - with an open center (which is why Gaara was able to pull Edo Madara out of it. If it were a solid, that would not happen. Susano is merely a very strong chakra shell).


As I have said, that is explained by a susanoo user being able to alter the density of their chakra. If Susanoo wasn't a solid it wouldn't be a defense and any attack would just go straight to the enemy. Teleporting in a solid is suicide.


> B: It's been stated, clearly, that Minato needs to be in contact with a person's chakra to teleport them and their chakra.


I have no argument against that, in fact I am arguing that.
My argument statest that because Itachi's chakra is the same as the chakra making up susanoo if Susanoo is teleported Itachi will go with it.



> Minato can, if he wanted to, enter or warp Susano away. Case closed.


I don't think that he can't warp Susano away, I think that if he warped Susano away he would Warp Itachi with it. The same way as when he warps Naruto with his Bijuu Avatar the bijuu avatar goes with naruto.



> Truth be told, Itachi's Susano is not a real threat to Minato. This thread needs to be closed - Itachi will never be on Minato's level. Itachi is loved more by Kishi, but Minato has a better portrayal, feat wise.


Edo Itachi and Minato (non edo) have been shown to be at the same level, although on different levels. Only Itachi fanboys say that Itachi is ahead and only Minato fanboys say that Minato is ahead.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 10, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> As I have said, that is explained by a susanoo user being able to alter the density of their chakra. If Susanoo wasn't a solid it wouldn't be a defense and any attack would just go straight to the enemy. Teleporting in a solid is suicide.



This altering isn't significant unless it relates to the user choosing to let people in. If Itachi is tagged or steps within the range of a marking, Minato can teleport to Itachi directly. In fact he could even take Itachi out of Susanoo should Susanoo be within Hiraishin's range.

Minato's chakra would be linked to Susanoo, which will be linked to Itachi. So Minato could choose to teleport himself and Itachi, minus Susanoo, elsewhere. That is how Minato teleported himself, Naruto and Sasuke without Juubito.



> Edo Itachi and Minato (non edo) have been shown to be at the same level, although on different levels. Only Itachi fanboys say that Itachi is ahead and only Minato fanboys say that Minato is ahead.



We still don't know much about Minato's full capabilities, really. This is a thread where you can account for portrayal, which undoubtedly puts Minato ahead.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This altering isn't significant unless it relates to the user choosing to let people in. If Itachi is tagged or steps within the range of a marking, Minato can teleport to Itachi directly. In fact he could even take Itachi out of Susanoo should Susanoo be within Hiraishin's range.
> 
> Minato's chakra would be linked to Susanoo, which will be linked to Itachi. So Minato could choose to teleport himself and Itachi, minus Susanoo, elsewhere. That is how Minato teleported himself, Naruto and Sasuke without Juubito.
> 
> ...



Itachi can remotely control Susano'o 
Link removed


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## Larcher (Jun 10, 2014)

Minato is hyped more within the manga, surprisingly, Itachi is actually quite underrated within the Narutoverse, but definitely not among the fandom. This is restricting BM. There about equal if comparing feats, and there both tough badasses.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 10, 2014)

Minato to be honest, even though there roles are equivalent and Itachi has had much more presence than Minato. Beat the dude Itachi played second fiddle to for years. Itachi operated under the assumption the Tobi was Madara, while Minato wasn't as gullible. His plan for his main character counterpart worked. Had he not sacrificed his life and made Naruto Kurama's Jin, the world would be over by now. Not so much with Itachi, as his plan almost made Sasuke destroy Konoha. Minato's contingency plans worked, such as placing him and Kushina in Naruto. Itachi's Koto and Amaterasu surprises both failed. Actually saved the world constantly when he was revived, and was the first Edo Hokage to do so. They serve equivalent roles to the two main characters, but Naruto is more important to the story that Sasuke, so it's only right his equivalent is more important than Sasuke's, though the sheer amount of wank Kishi gives Itachi makes me truly question this.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jun 10, 2014)

We know Kishi wants us to believe Minato is more overhyped and overrated by giving us new facts - He doesn't invent Hiraishin, he doesn't stop Kyubi himself, he fails to stop the world's biggest threat even he has perfect chance and skillset to do so. Doesn't help that he gets trolled as a clown in the whole war, emotionally unstable and can't perform a single new feat with new major powerup.


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## StickaStick (Jun 10, 2014)

If there was ever any doubt before the War-Arc, it should be have extinguished since. Just look at the roles Kishi relegated each to.

Itachi: a duet performance with Sasuke against Kabuto. In essence a side-conflict.

Minato: A major player in the arc's culminating fight, where he literally saved the Alliance at specific moments against Juubito's barrage. 

Both characters had their own fuck-ups: Itachi not ending the one Edo that mattered (Mads) and Minato's gaffe against BZ. All in all, Kishi felt fit to save Minato for the big stage while Itachi played a side-role.


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## ueharakk (Jun 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That would be completely wrong though.


not at all.  Jiraiya has far more parallels with Itachi than Minato has with itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> not at all.  Jiraiya has far more parallels with Itachi than Minato has with itachi.



Lol no, he doesn't.


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## ueharakk (Jun 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol no, he doesn't.


really now?

Both were the next benchmark in power for both MCs at the time of their deaths.
Both die at the same time in the manga as a result of two of major battles.
Both killed by people who they used to be very close to.
Both deaths resulted in the the two MC's gaining a new level of power.
Both deaths result in a severe grieving period for both MCs.
Both deaths resulted in a massive shift in ideology for both MCs.
Both MCs gain a new level of power by acquiring jiraiya and itachi's respective powerups.
Both had acquired a power that orochimaru coveted but could not attain himself.
Both were depicted as on the same level when they encountered each other.

What parallels do Itachi and Minato have?


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## Kyu (Jun 10, 2014)

Krippy said:


> If "perfect" implies they are simply on good terms then that's not what I meant.
> 
> I was referring to his proficiency with wielding Kurama's power.



He can erect his Chakra Avatar in flawless unison with Naruto & assisted in making a _Bijudama_. We've only ever seen Perfect Jins pull those feats off.



Legendary Itachi said:


> Doesn't help that he gets trolled as a clown in the whole war



Better than getting bifurcated by a snake obsessed nerd in glasses.

Notice how he's only got his shit pushed in by Juubi Jinchuriki. Let's not kid ourselves, fanboy antics aside - Itachi would suffer the same fate.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> really now?
> 
> Both were the next benchmark in power for both MCs at the time of their deaths.
> Both die at the same time in the manga as a result of two of major battles.
> ...



Alot more than those reaching parallels you lined up there, but I am not going to bother.
When you have Orochimaru, trying to draw parallels between Jiraiya and anyone else is a waste of time.


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## ueharakk (Jun 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Alot more than those reaching parallels you lined up there, but I am not going to bother.


How are any of those parallels reaching? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> When you have Orochimaru, trying to draw parallels between Jiraiya and anyone else is a waste of time.


Orochimaru, Tsunade and Jiraiya are not on the same level by simply being sannin unless you think Jiraiya or Tsunade would give current Orochimaru an extreme difficulty match.  
Not when *Jiraiya has a level of power that orochimaru wanted but could never obtain*, a *powerup that had itachi quacking in his sandals at the mention of it.*

If you actually had a convincing argument, you would have posted the parallels between minato and itachi.  You don't post because you know that the parallels between the two would be far more of a 'reach' than the ones i've brought up.  Itachi doesn't have parallels that suggest equality with minato,  the so called 'parallels' are mostly asthetic in nature as they are both 'look cool', kishi has treated both well in their earlier pre-edo fights, and both get good verbal praise from characters.  However as far as parallels come, there aren't many between minato and itachi.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 10, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> really now?
> 
> Both were the next benchmark in power for both MCs at the time of their deaths.
> Both die at the same time in the manga as a result of two of major battles.
> ...



i disagree

Kakashi= Starting point

Sanin= next level

itachi/minato= next level

hashi/madara = next level

indura/ashura= next level

kishi constantly made these 2 have parallels in partners it would make no sense to break the trend and start it again.

itachi died directly for sasuke/minato died directly for naruto

jiraiya hyped minato and claimed he was unsurpassable/ oro hyped itachi and claimed he couldn't beat the heir to the sharingon.

itachi is more skilled then sasuke, sasuke has more raw power/minato is more skilled then naruto naruto has more raw power.

kcm directly paralleled  naruto to his father, and he even obtained his speed, at first he couldn't full master it tho and crashed using the speed

ms sasuke couldn't fully master it and claimed susano was hurting his whole body and wondered how itachi did it

Ems directly parallels sasuke to itachi, and sasuke references itachi multiple times after obtaining it.


Sasuke and itachi fight side by side using susano/naruto and minato fight side by side using bm.


i think each respective sanin hyping minato and itachi along with the susano/bm fighting along side each other, trumps any parallel itachi and jiraiya may share


problem is most ppl associate parallels with strength and thats not always the case, 

example the elder son with the eyes was hyped to be slightly stronger then the other/ madara was slightly weaker then hashi/ minato may be slightly more powerful then itachi, and its a never ending chain


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi can remotely control Susano'o
> 3



We saw Madara do the same thing. 

Though it would be a waste when someone who can move faster than Ei is in front of you.


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## ueharakk (Jun 10, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> i disagree
> 
> Kakashi= Starting point
> 
> ...


That makes absolutely no sense since Sasuke's MS powerup has nothing to do with him surpassing orochimaru while Naruto's sennin mode powerup has everything to do with him surpassing Jiraiya.  We also never saw sasuke surpass orochimaru, as he absorbed a bedridden orochimaru who couldn't use ninjutsu.

Not only that, we don't get a time where Sasuke surpasses Kakashi.



Bkprince33 said:


> itachi died directly for sasuke/minato died directly for naruto


at two completely different times in the manga, and yielding completely different powers for sasuke and naruto.  Compare that to jiraiya and itachi's death happening at the same time, both by people they used to love, and the same level of power.



Bkprince33 said:


> jiraiya hyped minato and claimed he was unsurpassable/ oro hyped itachi and claimed he couldn't beat the heir to the sharingon.


Which in no way is a parallel since 'unsurpassable' craps all over 'i can't beat him'.



Bkprince33 said:


> itachi is more skilled then sasuke, sasuke has more raw power/minato is more skilled then naruto naruto has more raw power.


Jiraiya is more skilled than naruto as well...



Bkprince33 said:


> kcm directly paralleled  naruto to his father, and he even obtained his speed, at first he couldn't full master it tho and crashed using the speed


yeah so KCM paralelled living minato.



Bkprince33 said:


> ms sasuke couldn't fully master it and claimed susano was hurting his whole body and wondered how itachi did it




are you literally saying that KCM is the equivalent to Sasuke gaining the MS?



Bkprince33 said:


> Ems directly parallels sasuke to itachi, and sasuke references itachi multiple times after obtaining it.


EMS absolutely does not parallel sasuke to itachi, Sasuke completely surpasses itachi the instant he gets EMS.  That's the whole reason itachi got brought back with fresh eyes, no illness, with greater regen than byakugou, unlimited chakra and no strain from the MS, all so he could fight alongside newbie EMS Sasuke.



Bkprince33 said:


> Sasuke and itachi fight side by side using susano/naruto and minato fight side by side using bm.


That works against your argument.  The sheer difference in the level of both fights conclusively proves how much greater minato is than itachi and that both were not suppose to be viewed as equals. 



Bkprince33 said:


> i think each respective sanin hyping minato and itachi along with the susano/bm fighting along side each other, trumps any parallel itachi and jiraiya may share


I hope you are not serious.    The parallels that I've outlined between Itachi and Jiraiya decisively trump these reached for parallels that you are trying to ascribe to them.

The fact that itachi has been gone for a hundred chapters while Minato has been fighting juubi jinks, saving the alliance, and is still alive after losing both arms just completely messes up edo parallels between them.  Itachi came back to talk no jutsu Sasuke, yet has Minato talk no jutsu'd naruto?  No, it's been the otherway around.  When BSM naruto was fighting alongside BM minato, who was the leader and who was the support?  Who was the one to talk no jutsu Kabuto and who's the one to talk no jutsu Obito?



Bkprince33 said:


> problem is most ppl associate parallels with strength and thats not always the case,
> 
> example the elder son with the eyes was hyped to be slightly stronger then the other/ madara was slightly weaker then hashi/ minato may be slightly more powerful then itachi, and its a never ending chain


All those examples were people on the same level, just not exactly equal.  With minato and itachi it's completely different, there's a significant disparity between the two.


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## Krippy (Jun 10, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How does that even make sense?



It would make sense if you could read.



> No, the MS CANNOT be scaled to EMS obviously.



No shit sherlock. Just like KCM cant be scaled to BM.



> in Minato's case BOTH are Kurama (who used to be one), both are the same size, and both have the same amount
> of chakra, and both were actually one. How can that be compared to MS case exactly?



Minato isn't Naruto.

MS + MS = EMS

50% fox + 50% fox = 100% fox

Kwality maths :ignoramus



> Also, what did not Minato master about Kurama exactly?
> He can use the TBB, the chakra arms, the transferring chakra, the Rassengan...etc
> so what left?



His offensive might is piss poor compared to his son.



Turrin said:


> BM in general is something that Itachi can't handle



I disagree. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He was proficient with Kurama's powers.



Not from what he showed.



> Itachi could never be scaled to EMS Sasuke because first he lacks the superior Choku Tomoe. Second he lacks the EMS and Sasuke's superior MS skills (like Kagutsuchi).



Minato could never be scaled to BM Naruto because first he lacks his superior rasengan varients. Second he lacks his own Bijuu mode and Naruto's superior firepower.



> Minato literally had the other half of Naruto's power. The only difference being that he lacked Asura's chakra, which obviously reacted to BM.



Changes nothing.



> You're probably skewing the significance of the parallels. EMS Sasuke felt Naruto had more power than him when he saw BM in action



raw power has nothing to do with who would win in a fight nor is it a good indicator of strength.

BM Naruto has farrrrrrr more power than MS Obito but we all know he would struggle in a fight with him (No knowledge).



> You're trying too hard to equalise Itachi and Minato. From what we know and saw, Itachi fell short because he has inferior MS skill relative to Sasuke with matching (horrible) stamina. Minato literally had half of Naruto's power. You'll find that the main differentiate was that Naruto could merge SM with his BM and Minato obviously cannot do so efficiently.



Stamina is irrelevant in Edo incarnations. Itachi also has half of Sasuke's power, as the EMS is the fusion of two mangekyo.



Kyu said:


> He can erect his Chakra Avatar in flawless unison with Naruto & assisted in making a _Bijudama_. We've only ever seen Perfect Jins pull those feats off.



Killer Bee can do that as well.

Can Itachi beat a killer bee with hiraishin?


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## trance (Jun 10, 2014)

Krippy said:


> I disagree.



So, you disagree that Itachi can't handle an incarnation of Naruto that can casually spam island busting bijudamas, casually create one equal to the combined bijudama of five other biju and smack away bijudamas just by moving past them?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 10, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Not from what he showed.



He showed proficiency. 



> Minato could never be scaled to BM Naruto because first he lacks his superior rasengan varients. Second he lacks his own Bijuu mode and Naruto's superior firepower.



You're missing a ton of points again. He lacks Rasengan variants, but showed he can use Bijuu Dama. Also he actually used Bijuu Mode. 



> Changes nothing.



Changes everything i.e. there are facts you obviously didn't consider.



> raw power has nothing to do with who would win in a fight nor is it a good indicator of strength.
> 
> BM Naruto has farrrrrrr more power than MS Obito but we all know he would struggle in a fight with him (No knowledge).



Matters only in situations where the other side can make a difference. This is not one of those situations.

You used a false analogy: MS Obito actually has powers which can cope with BM, Itachi does not. 



> Stamina is irrelevant in Edo incarnations. Itachi also has half of Sasuke's power, as the EMS is the fusion of two mangekyo.



Itachi has less than half of Sasuke's powers. Sasuke has superior chakra i.e. superior jutsu output. On top of that he's got Enton on a level far beyond Itachi. Let us not forget jutsu like the Chidori variants and so on.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> How are any of those parallels reaching?



Parallels need to be meaningful. 



> Orochimaru, Tsunade and Jiraiya are not on the same level by simply being sannin unless you think Jiraiya or Tsunade would give current Orochimaru an extreme difficulty match.
> Not when *Jiraiya has a level of power that orochimaru wanted but could never obtain*, a *powerup that had itachi quacking in his sandals at the mention of it.*



Orochimau and Jiraiya were and will always be equals.



> If you actually had a convincing argument, you would have posted the parallels between minato and itachi.  You don't post because you know that the parallels between the two would be far more of a 'reach' than the ones i've brought up.  Itachi doesn't have parallels that suggest equality with minato,  the so called 'parallels' are mostly asthetic in nature as they are both 'look cool', kishi has treated both well in their earlier pre-edo fights, and both get good verbal praise from characters.  However as far as parallels come, there aren't many between minato and itachi.


I do have it, but I don't need to debate something as obvious as this.
Among Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Minato and Itachi, if you think 2 characters who have parallels is Jiraiya and Itachi, then nothing I say can change your mind, because everything I'll say is in the manga.

edit : 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We saw Madara do the same thing.
> 
> Though it would be a waste when someone who can move faster than Ei is in front of you.


Minato's movements aren't faster than A. His physical movements weren't even on par with 7 gated Gai both in SM and KCM. Itachi can casually react to him in base mode.

And Susano'o can hit him with totsuka or Magatama from afar, that should count for something.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato's movements aren't faster than A. His physical movements weren't even on par with 7 gated Gai both in SM and KCM. Itachi can casually react to him in base mode.
> 
> And Susano'o can hit him with totsuka or Magatama from afar, that should count for something.



Minato could react to Ei and Obito. He'd be able to out speed Itachi, should it be necessary. 

If a sensor who isn't being held back can't detect it, then sure. Also Minato could just warp it elsewhere.

A funny situation would be if Totsuka was warped and transported to Itachi's seal: Itachi would seal himself.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Minato could react to Ei and Obito. He'd be able to out speed Itachi,* should it be necessary.


Baseless.



> If a sensor who isn't being held back can't detect it, then sure. Also Minato could just warp it elsewhere.


Elsewhere ? He should warp it to one of his kunais around the battlefield. There is no reason to assume that he will conveniently have one far away.



> A funny situation would be if Totsuka was warped and transported to Itachi's seal: Itachi would seal himself.



I don't get it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Baseless.



If you're claiming Itachi is faster than Ei and Minato, _that_ is baseless.



> Elsewhere ? He should warp it to one of his kunais around the battlefield. There is no reason to assume that he will conveniently have one far away.



A kunai or any marking. Those seals don't disappear, y'know. Plus we've seen he can spread kunai very easily. 

Warping an attack from Itachi is a piece of cake. It isn't something like the Juubidama which would be a problem unless it is warped extremely far away.



> I don't get it.



Think about it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you're claiming Itachi is faster than Ei and Minato, _that_ is baseless.


Thats not what I am claiming. Claiming that being able to react to A or Obito means outspeeding Itachi is baseless.



> A kunai or any marking. Those seals don't disappear, y'know. Plus we've seen he can spread kunai very easily.


He can, that means whereever susano'o lands he can throw Magatama to Minato's location. Considering Totsuka's range, it is also another possibility.



> Warping an attack from Itachi is a piece of cake. It isn't something like the Juubidama which would be a problem unless it is warped extremely far away.


None of Itachi's attacks have the charge time of Bijuu dama, which gives Minato the time to prep in the first place.



> Think about it.


Try to explain maybe ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats not what I am claiming. Claiming that being able to react to A or Obito means outspeeding Itachi is baseless.



Yes, keeping up with notably fast foes means Minato could out speed Itachi if he wanted.
Hiraishin's nature makes it worse.



> He can, that means whereever susano'o lands he can throw Magatama to Minato's location. Considering Totsuka's range, it is also another possibility.



If Itachi has the reflexes, he could try. But again: warping. Unlike Itachi, Minato has _tons_ of chakra.

Like I said, a sensor who isn't severely held back won't have a problem sensing Itachi's Susanoo, all aspects of it.



> None of Itachi's attacks have the charge time of Bijuu dama, which gives Minato the time to prep in the first place.



All he did was throw a kunai and activated a jutsu by will.



> Try to explain maybe ?



Imagine Minato has his barrier up. Itachi tries to use Totsuka. Totsuka gets warped somewhere where it hits Itachi. Thus Itachi would seal himself in this scenario.


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## Remsengan (Jun 11, 2014)

*Hype*:

It's pretty clear Minato has more hype than Itachi.  Minato had higher-ups praise him and has an historical record of successful feats, while Itachi is renown for his betrayal and failures.  Whereas Kishi made a point of Itachi's struggle to overcome his shortcommings, everything Minato did was displayed in a positive light...and had positive results.

*Coolness:*

Both are portayed as badasses.  But Itachi actually edges out in this category.  Both are geniuses with their own type of unique powers.  They are both strong, cool-headed individuals who are characters we're supposed to look up to.  However, Itachi has the whole "anti-hero" thing going for him and has had more character development than his Uzamaki rival.  Speaking of families. the Uchiha has always had a "cool" factor to them which Itachi inevitably inherited.

*Strength/Relevance:*

They're both very strong.  In life, given fair conditions they were probably equals.  However, their "Edo" reincarnations are a different story.  Whereas Itachi simply got an endurance buff and another ranged jutsu, Minato got KM mode, SM mode, enhanced speed and other basic buffs.  He's stayed relevant, longer, which lends to to the idea that while Itachi has played out his part, Minato still has more plot left in him.  Minato is the main characters father.  Itachi was Sasuke's father figure.....who did the better job given the opportunities?

Minato was encouraging and conforting in Naruto's mind vision.  Itachi was abusive and manipulative when he was in Sasuke's mind, something he admitted was a grevious error.


In conclusion, I think Minato is the person we all look up to but can't quite ever reach, whereas Itachi is nearly on the same teir but is much more relatable.  That's why I think Kishi, and perhaps fans, like Itachi a little more. 

PS - me not included


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## Akitō (Jun 11, 2014)

It's hard because I think Minato is definitely stronger, but he was utterly dismantled in the war. Obviously Itachi would get beaten by Obito too if he were in Minato's position, but we've never actually seen him lose in the manga. Not sure if that fits into the portrayal category, but it certainly keeps his invincibility-aura intact; Minato lost his when he had his arms casually ripped off. 

Ultimately, I think Itachi's in the lead just in terms of portrayal. Kishimoto seems extremely reluctant to put him in any situation where he isn't going to embarrass his enemies.


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## lathia (Jun 11, 2014)

People actually think Itachi has greater shinobi portrayal? Itachi himself acknowledged Minato was a more complete shinobi to Naruto when he gave him a lesson about his lack of reliance on his friends.  Minato is one of the most complete Shinobi second to Naruto. From personal life to a ruthless shinobi leading wars.


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## Dr. White (Jun 11, 2014)

lathia said:


> People actually think Itachi has greater shinobi portrayal? Itachi himself acknowledged Minato was a more complete shinobi to Naruto when he gave him a lesson about his lack of reliance on his friends.  Minato is one of the most complete Shinobi second to Naruto. From personal life to a ruthless shinobi leading wars.



And Minato said Jiraiya was the perfect Shinobi, and Hashirama said Itachi was a better shinboi then himself (you know the guy who started Konoha + the will of fire) so let's not get to lost in "shinobi" hype.

On Topic: Itachi and Minato are both his golden boys. Minato has more in verse hype because he was more famous and a Kage who fought the Kyuubi. Itachi was just renowned as the psycho genius who killed his whole clan.  But if we go strictly by author portrayal, then Itachi takes it. We have never seen him fail in combat, he stopped Edo Tensei and turned Kabuto, instructed Naruto, and changed sasuke, and he has never been bad mouthed by anyone c'ept Tobi (and that was after Itachi's death). 

Also Itachi whilst alive could have reached current Sasuke levels, while Minato could not have eclipsed his base form. The fact that kishi had him give up that chance for Sauce, and then ontop of it make him ill, says something.

But overall they are generally equal and both in my top 4 characters in the manga.


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## Trojan (Jun 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> And Minato said Jiraiya was the perfect Shinobi, and Hashirama said Itachi was a better shinboi then himself (you know the guy who started Konoha + the will of fire) so let's not get to lost in "shinobi" hype.
> 
> On Topic: Itachi and Minato are both his golden boys. Minato has more in verse hype because he was more famous and a Kage who fought the Kyuubi. Itachi was just renowned as the psycho genius who killed his whole clan.  But if we go strictly by author portrayal, then Itachi takes it. We have never seen him fail in combat, he stopped Edo Tensei and turned Kabuto, instructed Naruto, and changed sasuke, and he has never been bad mouthed by anyone c'ept Tobi (and that was after Itachi's death).
> 
> ...



Do they have to know him in person? kishi throws hype it him whether they know him or not. Hashirama does not know shit about itachi yet he stated that. Onoki does not know that the edo were all stopped to begin with and itachi failed with the only one left yet kishi threw that hype to itachi again when he has done nothing of importance in that regard...etc

we have never seen itachi take on Juubi's host level opponent. And when there is a battle he either run away for example
1- against Jiraiya
2- against Gai

or he get defeated

1- his clone against Konoha's team
2- against Hebi Sasuke

or he gets helped

1- against Nagato
2- against Kabuto (after he got cut in half and destroyed by the rocks) 

He only defeated part 1 kakashi, Oro, and kid Deidara by himself.


* He got bad mouthed by Obito, Danzo, Sasuke (at first), Asuma (if I remember currently) ...etc 



> Also Itachi whilst alive could have reached current Sasuke levels,


-snip-


> while Minato could not have eclipsed his base form.


How do you know?


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## Remsengan (Jun 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> But if we go strictly by author portrayal, then Itachi takes it. We have never seen him fail in combat, he stopped Edo Tensei and turned Kabuto, instructed Naruto, and changed sasuke, and he has never been bad mouthed by anyone c'ept Tobi (and that was after Itachi's death).
> 
> Also Itachi whilst alive could have reached current Sasuke levels, while Minato could not have eclipsed his base form. The fact that kishi had him give up that chance for Sauce, and then ontop of it make him ill, says something.
> 
> But overall they are generally equal and both in my top 4 characters in the manga.



Itachi never had a "real" fight.  Despite the lack of a complete defeat, none of his fights were total victories either.  Even against Nagato, he had strong backup and the fact he was even part of that skirmish is because Shinsui's eye activated by accident.  

He could never have reached current Sasuke levels, Itachi was never Azura reincarnate.  He has terrible stamina even while healthy, and his non-doujutsu based ninjutsu is slim compared to his brother's.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Also Itachi whilst alive could have reached current Sasuke levels



Itachi has appalling chakra reserves, inferior Enton skill and lacks Perfect Susanoo along with the Choku Tomoe with Indra's chakra as well as the Rinnegan with Rikudou power. Itachi obviously wouldn't reach current Sasuke's level.


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## Dr. White (Jun 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> > Do they have to know him in person? kishi throws hype it him whether they know him or not. Hashirama does not know shit about itachi yet he stated that. Onoki does not know that the edo were all stopped to begin with and itachi failed with the only one left yet kishi threw that hype to itachi again when he has done nothing of importance in that regard...etc
> 
> 
> Minato knew Jiraiya in person and said he was better than himself as a shinobi. Am I to take that at face value? No. It means he has high regard of Jiraiya as a ninja, and is the best because of his philosophy and character. Same with Hashirama from Hiruzen's descriptions. Hiruzen knew Itachi well and called him wise as a Kage in his decision making and insight. It's all about accepting the hype but taking it with a grain of salt. Unless it is something direct like Hashirama's God of Shinobi title, or goes directly against feats like hirzuen being called strongest hokage way back when.
> ...


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## Dr. White (Jun 11, 2014)

Remsengan said:


> Itachi never had a "real" fight.  Despite the lack of a complete defeat, none of his fights were total victories either.  Even against Nagato, he had strong backup and the fact he was even part of that skirmish is because Shinsui's eye activated by accident.
> 
> He could never have reached current Sasuke levels, Itachi was never Azura reincarnate.  He has terrible stamina even while healthy, and his non-doujutsu based ninjutsu is slim compared to his brother's.



-Exactly because while alive Itachi was a benevolent guy who hated fighting osing as a terrorist in akatsuki. Some real cognitive dissonance there. Despite this he was able to fool people into believing his roles while also keeping true to his interest (keeping Konoha safe, keeping Sasuke alive). His edo incarnation is the first time we see him actively fighting and you can see the difference in his style. Kishi just chose to have him with others. The fact is he outshone them. As Nagato babyshook Naruto who had full knowledge, and clueless Bee. While Itachi was the one to originally take care of Nagato and his summons only to be saved by Kabuto regaining control and going ham on his controller. 

Itachi didn't have terrible chakra level he freaking outlasted Hebi Sasuke. His main problem was his sickness and deteriorating sight. But as we saw in his edo showings Itahi biols down what needs to be done to win a fight and can even make strategies on the fly (deducing how to beat CT on first sight). He has quite enough chakra and intelligence to make OHKO plans with his ushin/genjutsu game to boot. We just never saw it because he didn't wanna kill the people he was fighting. EMS Itachi could have easily gotten rinnengan as well.


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## ShinobisWill (Jun 11, 2014)

Minato is undoubtedly stronger, even if Itachi is 100% healthy. But in terms of wank, Itachi takes the cake.


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## Akitō (Jun 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> EMS Itachi could have easily gotten rinnengan as well.



He wouldn't easily get it, and he might not even get it. You need both brothers' chakra, and he has neither naturally. And even if he did, I don't think he'd be anywhere near as strong as Sasuke is because Sasuke got half of the Sage's powers. He'd at best be as strong as Madara was with the Rinngean, who pales in comparison to Sasuke right now.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2014)

That assumes Itachi will be able to use the Rinnegan effectively given his chakra reserves.


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## Trojan (Jun 11, 2014)

> =Dr. White;50921628]
> Minato knew Jiraiya in person and said he was better than himself as a shinobi. Am I to take that at face value? No. It means he has high regard of Jiraiya as a ninja, and is the best because of his philosophy and character. Same with Hashirama from Hiruzen's descriptions. Hiruzen knew Itachi well and called him wise as a Kage in his decision making and insight. It's all about accepting the hype but taking it with a grain of salt. Unless it is something direct like Hashirama's God of Shinobi title, or goes directly against feats like hirzuen being called strongest hokage way back when.



I honestly do not know what does that have anything to do with what I said. My point is that you stated Minato was famous and because of that he got all that hype. On the other hand itachi was not, and that's why he does not get as much of hype (or something like that). However, what I'm saying is
even if itachi was not as famous as Minato, kishi still gives him hype via other characters like for example Onoki, who stated what he said about whoever concealed the ET. Even though he does not know him, but we know that is meant to hype itachi.... 



> -He saved Naruto and Bee from Nagato and sealed him.
> 
> -He fought Kabuto he was legitmately strong in his own right, and couldn't even attack offensively. He had to outsmart/outhax Kabuto which he did to perfect effect. He also protected Sasuke a bunch of times. Kabuto was able to actually control physical things with his "rikudo" power.



and Nagato and Kabuto are the same level as Obito and Madara? 
not to mention you act as if itachi would have been able to do that without Naruto and B to begin with, when he will get fodderized without their fire power, not to mention Nagato had fake Rinnegan and was not even in control. U_U

- Yes, but again he got cut in half and attacked by the rocks. Sasuke saved him several times as well. 
Without Sasuke itachi would have never succeeded. 


> Ok, you are not reading the story as literature but rather as a battle comic. against Konoha he was not trying to harm them. He had to play the role of a bad guy working for akatsuki (especially since his partner was Tobi's right hand man Kisame, and told Itachi he would be watching him), but inside he loved Konoha and sasuke. He didn't want to kill anybody and a full on fight with gated Gai, and or Jiraiya would have ended in major destruction to people which he did not wantin or near his hometown. So he simply used Jiraiya's hype to tell Kisame a fight between them would have been useless for both parties. All of this which is later revealed and backed up by part 2 and the databooks.


Pretty sure he was trying to kill Kurnai and told Kisame to take Kakashi. 
Nevertheless. That's all irrelevant to the point I'm making. His reasoning do not matter, as the fight did not happen Whatever the reason you think it may be. 

the point is basically he only fought kid Deidara, Oro, and part 1 kakashi by himself. 


> -His clone was created for the sole purpose of slowing them down. Which is eactly what it accomplished. despite that the clone intimated a group of jonin/kage level ninja, and soloed Naruto by moving his finger up. Pretty impressive for a base distraction clone. The fact it took Kakashi and Naruto (who went KN mode) to down it speaks to his strength more than not.


Does not matter, he still failed. Naruto did not even use 1 tail, does that mean Deidara is stronger
than itachi because Naruto used 2 against him, and 4 against Oro?

by this logic itachi is just as good as Haku. 


> -He could have easily killed Sasuke this was made clear by Tobi after the fight. Itachi in his sick condition outlasted Sasuke, and could have peirced him ata any time before he died. but he creepishly walked up to him and chose to poke him instead, you know why....?? Because he was good the whole time and never was trying to kill Sasuke. The whole fight is staged for him to win. So yeah if you consider Itachi having is ace out and Sasuke shitting in the corner as Itachi just creeps out his little brother before dying giving Sasuke the default win as impressive than I guess we have different standards.



May you put this scan where obito stated "easily"? 
and again, you are still missing the actual point.  


> -He outperformed both KCM Naruto and Bee with his noggin. He even went into CqC against both of them and did fine, managing to genjutsu bee with base genjutsu. Then he managed outshine them and take down Nagato. They literally only helped by getting soloed. Itachi deduced the rinnengan and countered it. He needed them to beat CT I'll grant that (although we don't know if Totsuka can seal it) but the fact is he outperformed them. Edo Itachi was a glimpse of him finally fighting seriously.


How about no? 
Naruto did not even want to fight him, he was only wanting to talk. And do NOT tell me that it's the same for itachi because Kabuto was the one in control and he obviously does not want him to only talk. 

As for B, he destroyed that genjutsu easily, so I don't know what the point of brining it up. 

Kabuto did not even payed attention to itachi's existence, he only remembered him after he attacked Nagato who was dealing with those 2 from behind. 



> -Obito badmouthed him after he attempted to assasinate him. He also hyped him right before. Saying even after death Itachi had an ace up his sleeve, but Obito had Izanagi up his sleeve. Obito held back on giving Pein the greenlight on Konoha because of Itachi.


No, we all know the very fact that Kurama is the last one who should be sealed, and that's why they went to him last.  


> -Danzo hyped the fuck out of him. He came at his character for giving up secrets which he didn't even do because Tobi told Sasuke. Sasuke is the same, Asuma as well. I am talking power wise. Itachi and incompetent in battle just don't make sense.



My dear, you're ignoring the actually point and go to irrelevant stuff!
you said that Minato was badmouthed and it's not the case with itachi. I do NOT care wether they hyped him or not.

A hyped Minato, and so did obito. Does that change that they badmouthed him? No
the same with itachi, so I'm not sure what the point of those excuses, since they are IRRELEVANT. 


> Itachi could have killed MS Sauce. Then taken his eyes, and gained EMS w/ spiritual weapons. PS with Totsuka and Yata = lolgameover. It's just food for thought.



And that's equal to Hagoromo's power? How? 


> Immediately after sealing the kyuubi inside himself Minato exclaims the chakra's are heavy and weighing him down. Which is what you would expect with an incompatible body. We saw what happened with mutliple host with just Hachibi. The uzumaki were special enough to house the kyuubi but Minato doesn't have their genes. His body most likely would have eventually died, he fought with willpower to perform his couple feats before death (which is an amazing endurance feat for Minato). Being an edo his body can't die. the more impressive part is his imeediate synchronization with other kyuubi.



Except Minato sealed him and did use his power. IT's just like how Sasuke was when he first gained the CS. 

When itachi used Sasunoo the side effect directly effected him, do we have to conceal it from his power? And itachi did actually die after using it, so the susanoo is not his power, right? 




> And before you say something no Death seal was not waying him down. It is explicitly the Kyuubi affecting him as such.



and that was only at first, the pain won't last forever. 
just like how Naruto was getting hurt by Kurama's chakra at first, and then it was no problem....


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## Remsengan (Jun 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -Exactly because while alive Itachi was a benevolent guy who hated fighting osing as a terrorist in akatsuki. Some real cognitive dissonance there. Despite this he was able to fool people into believing his roles while also keeping true to his interest (keeping Konoha safe, keeping Sasuke alive). His edo incarnation is the first time we see him actively fighting and you can see the difference in his style. Kishi just chose to have him with others. The fact is he outshone them. As Nagato babyshook Naruto who had full knowledge, and clueless Bee. While Itachi was the one to originally take care of Nagato and his summons only to be saved by Kabuto regaining control and going ham on his controller.



But in a sense he failed in all the cases where it truly mattered.  He fooled everyone, except for Madra and Tobi...who were ultimately the people he needed to fool the most.  In trying to keep Konoha safe, he aided or stood by while Akatsuki captured a majority of the Biju.  He did finally have a positive effect on his brother, which was only via an accident.  His original plan was to completely mind control Sasuke.  None of his victories are 100% pure, which ironically is Itachi's character in a nutshell.  This is in contrast to Minato who's victories were clear cut...even his death resulted in a positive outcome.



Dr. White said:


> Itachi didn't have terrible chakra level he freaking outlasted Hebi Sasuke. His main problem was his sickness and deteriorating sight. But as we saw in his edo showings Itahi biols down what needs to be done to win a fight and can even make strategies on the fly (deducing how to beat CT on first sight). He has quite enough chakra and intelligence to make OHKO plans with his ushin/genjutsu game to boot. We just never saw it because he didn't wanna kill the people he was fighting. EMS Itachi could have easily gotten rinnengan as well.



Hebi Sasuke threw away massive amounts of chakra on purpose, to set up Karin.  His sight was because he used MS too much, which just goes back to my statement about his lack of non-MS related jutsu.  His stamina stat is low in the DB, and his sickness may or may not factor into that number.  Whatever the case, Sasuke had loads more chakra to where he could hazardously spam his jutsu and still be ok against higher-tiers.  His high intellect is not disputed but Minato's is just as great, with similar feats.

I disagree about him being a Rinnengan/Indra candidate, but for arguments sake I'll say that Minato would be even more qualified as an life force/Azura candidate.


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## Dr. White (Jun 11, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I honestly do not know what does that have anything to do with what I said. My point is that you stated Minato was famous and because of that he got all that hype. On the other hand itachi was not, and that's why he does not get as much of hype (or something like that). However, what I'm saying is
> even if itachi was not as famous as Minato, kishi still gives him hype via other characters like for example Onoki, who stated what he said about whoever concealed the ET. Even though he does not know him, but we know that is meant to hype itachi....


Kishi still gives him hype no doubt but he is still way more low key than Minato who was a war hero turned Hokage/ city savior. Itachi's accomplishments of stopping a civil war and being a kid prodigy unmatched by anyone in this manga are never taken into account. Itachi at 13 was already kage level 





> and Nagato and Kabuto are the same level as Obito and Madara?
> not to mention you act as if itachi would have been able to do that without Naruto and B to begin with, when he will get fodderized without their fire power, not to mention Nagato had fake Rinnegan and was not even in control. U_U


Prior to their Juubi phases yes. And remind me what did Minato do combat wise? He got wrecked My Madara in sage mode, and his TBB didn't do jack IIRC. His best accomplishment was utility in teleporting the Juubi Bomb. 

Itachi would have been able to give Immobile Nagato a very difficult fight. Even Nagato (someone who prior to death saw him as a subordinate) exclaimed how little he knew of Itachi in life and came to respect him, ad apologized specifically to him. the only thing Itachi couldn't handle would be CT, and Itachi would try to end the fight before it got to that.

Anyway you are adressing the fact that he outperformed them and ultimately pulled the most weight in that fight in saving their asses and sealing him. 



> - Yes, but again he got cut in half and attacked by the rocks. Sasuke saved him several times as well.
> Without Sasuke itachi would have never succeeded.


-Itachi being hit by rocks was him saving Sasuke. He chose to save sasuke, knowing that he would regenrate. It was Itachi's susano around Sasuke meaning he reacted not Sasuke. Has Sasuke not been there he would have protected.

-Itachi got cut in half setting up Izanami the fight was pretty much over at that point and for whatever reason Itachi put down Susano. It wasn't like Kabuto blitzed him mid fight. Also Kabuto had nothing pressuring him from using his best techniques. Itachi and Sasuke couldn't use offensive jutsu. Meaning Kabuto could just lolcast while they planned a way to stop him and ET without it going on forever. 



> Pretty sure he was trying to kill Kurnai and told Kisame to take Kakashi.
> Nevertheless. That's all irrelevant to the point I'm making. His reasoning do not matter, as the fight did not happen Whatever the reason you think it may be.


It's called playing the part. Kishi has to write him a certain way and at that point we weren't suppossed to see him as good. But it was clear through hints of Itachi's intentions. Hence why Kakashi commented that Itachi could have killed him with Tsukuyomi and chose not to.



> the point is basically he only fought kid Deidara, Oro, and part 1 kakashi by himself.


Ok and that point is mitigated by his pacifism, limited screen time, and plot. You are also dowplaying each of those scenes. None of those fights lasted more than 30 seconds  and when he fought Oro he was like 13 - 14.  

People are judged on performance not W's and L's. By that logic Hebi sauce > MS itachi.



> Does not matter, he still failed. Naruto did not even use 1 tail, does that mean Deidara is stronger
> than itachi because Naruto used 2 against him, and 4 against Oro?


No he didn't, he bought the time Akatsuki needed....Hence why "Itachi" is fucking smiling when being hit by the rasengan.

You can't compare it to diedara because it wasn't a 30% clone....Once again he soloed Naruto in like 1 second as well. without others there Itachi would have won right there.





> May you put this scan where obito stated "easily"?
> and again, you are still missing the actual point.


No I'm not. You are missing the point that Itachi could have babyshook sasuke had he the mind. Tobi Says if he was serious (implying he wasn't) Sasuke would be dead, and that he played into Itachi's hands, only using his powerful techniques to push Orochimaru out



> How about no?
> Naruto did not even want to fight him, he was only wanting to talk. And do NOT tell me that it's the same for itachi because Kabuto was the one in control and he obviously does not want him to only talk.


You are defeating your whole point right there. Naruto knew Itachi was serious and not in control as well as Bee, hence why Naruto was throwing punches, and Bee was swinging Sameheada at him. Itachi was ducking and diving through them. 



> As for B, he destroyed that genjutsu easily, so I don't know what the point of brining it up.


A.) Genjutsu'ing a Jin is suppossed to be out of the question.
B.) Bee was completely caught off guard and had to be told by his partner there was a genjutsu. Itachi gained several seconds before he came to, in which if he wasn't on auto pilot and needed to kill bee; could have landed a plethora of his OHKO's. His uses Tsukuyomi instead of Base sharingan in that situation it would have been GG as well.



> Kabuto did not even payed attention to itachi's existence, he only remembered him after he attacked Nagato who was dealing with those 2 from behind.


This is one of the most BS excuses I have ever heard. Itachi was the only Edo tensei in recent memory to freaking break out of the jutsu. Shisui's eye was also heavily coveted, and Kabuto remarked he was a step above the rest. Itachi was the one to put down Nagato and Cerberus and Kabuto obviously St'd the flames Itachi created. It is ridiculous to think Kabuto freaking forgot about Itachi in two seconds of just having him in his head.



> No, we all know the very fact that Kurama is the last one who should be sealed, and that's why they went to him last.


Then why the hell did they try to catch him in pt. 1? Your telling me if ITachi was evil and they actually got Naruto in pt. 1 tobi would have sent him back? Come on brah, Tobi specifically stated once Itachi died he could fuck up Konoha and proceded to send Pain there.




> My dear, you're ignoring the actually point and go to irrelevant stuff!
> you said that Minato was badmouthed and it's not the case with itachi. I do NOT care wether they hyped him or not.


I never claimed Minato was badmouthed, I just claimed Itachi never was in a combat standpoint.




> And that's equal to Hagoromo's power? How?


No one said he was off limits from receiving a power up because he wasn't his son. that being said he would still be as strong as Rinnengan Madara. 




> Except Minato sealed him and did use his power. IT's just like how Sasuke was when he first gained the CS.


No he didn't he sealed him inside of his body and immediately began to comment on the immense chakra weighing him down. He was already dying so he had no reason not to risk it. Base Minato only got that chance as an edo. Sasuke's body was naturally a fit to Curse mark as noted by Orochimaru several times, and the fact that he wasn't killed by it. Not comparable instances here. It is a blatent point that Uzumaki's are needed to house Kyuubi's hell even Hashirama wasn't bout that shit.



> When itachi used Sasunoo the side effect directly effected him, do we have to conceal it from his power? And itachi did actually die after using it, so the susanoo is not his power, right?


It was clear that Itachi was dying from being sick and that he was prolonging his life with medicine. That combined with chakra exhaustion and MS hurt killed him. 






> and that was only at first, the pain won't last forever.
> just like how Naruto was getting hurt by Kurama's chakra at first, and then it was no problem....


No Minato was using any of his chakra it was just having the 50% kyuubi in him. Naruto was fine as a fucking baby housing that chakra and living a normal life. Meanwhile he came back as an edo in fine shape even outpacing Tobirama. Clearly he is benefitting from being an edo.


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## Dr. White (Jun 11, 2014)

Remsengan said:


> > But in a sense he failed in all the cases where it truly mattered.  He fooled everyone, except for Madra and Tobi...who were ultimately the people he needed to fool the most.  In trying to keep Konoha safe, he aided or stood by while Akatsuki captured a majority of the Biju.  He did finally have a positive effect on his brother, which was only via an accident.
> 
> 
> -While alive he failed. Although had Tobi not gotten To Sasuke first he would have completed his mission. but he corrected these things when he came back giving Naruto and Sasuke advice that helped shaped them. He kept Tobi from Konoha for as long as he could, and actively blew the Konoha mission. He couldn't take on Akatsuki by himself and obviously couldn't go back to living a shinobi life. So he did the absolute best with what he could.
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, keeping up with notably fast foes means Minato could out speed Itachi if he wanted.


No, it doesn't mean that.
Sasuke also reacted to Raikage, does that mean he will outspeed Itachi as well ? 



> Hiraishin's nature makes it worse.


I am not talking about Hirashin, I am talking about Minato's overall speed.




> If Itachi has the reflexes, he could try. But again: warping. Unlike Itachi, Minato has _tons_ of chakra.


What does it have anything to do with what I said ?  



> Like I said, a sensor who isn't severely held back won't have a problem sensing Itachi's Susanoo, all aspects of it.


What sensory feats does Minato have ? 



> All he did was throw a kunai and activated a jutsu by will.


 using his powerful techniques to push Orochimaru
 using his powerful techniques to push Orochimaru



> Imagine Minato has his barrier up. Itachi tries to use Totsuka. Totsuka gets warped somewhere where it hits Itachi. Thus Itachi would seal himself in this scenario.



For that to happen Minato needs to tag Itachi first and then prepare the warping barrier faster than Itachi can strike with Totsuka.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, it doesn't mean that.
> Sasuke also reacted to Raikage, does that mean he will outspeed Itachi as well ?



Not to the way Minato did. Unless you want to say Sasuke reacted to Ei's fastest speed.



> I am not talking about Hirashin, I am talking about Minato's overall speed.



Refer to how Minato saved Naruto.



> What sensory feats does Minato have ?



Unlike Itachi, he's actually a sensor. Unless you're a supreme sensor like Nagato or have special sensory abilities, then you're a generic sensor.



> using his powerful techniques to push Orochimaru
> using his powerful techniques to push Orochimaru



Now look at when he saved Naruto and co.



> For that to happen Minato needs to tag Itachi first and then prepare the warping barrier faster than Itachi can strike with Totsuka.



He plausibly could (Minato boosts the chances with clones). Using Hiraishin's barrier before Itachi can use Totsuka is no problem.

There's nothing to say Itachi can act faster than Minato.


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## Krippy (Jun 11, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> So, you disagree that Itachi can't handle an incarnation of Naruto that can casually spam island busting bijudamas, casually create one equal to the combined bijudama of five other biju and smack away bijudamas just by moving past them?


Trance do you even read bruh?

I'm talking about Minato who can't be scaled to naruto.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He showed proficiency.



No, he didn't. You repeating this doesn't make it any less false. He feats and skill are inferior just like with sage mode.



> You're missing a ton of points again. He lacks Rasengan variants, but showed he can use Bijuu Dama. Also he actually used Bijuu Mode.


Wow, he can use BD. What a guy 

You're missing the main point. The gap between him and his son is much larger than the gap between him and Itachi.

He has an avatar, not a distinct Bijuu cloak like his son.



> Changes everything i.e. there are facts you obviously didn't consider.



Changes nothing i.e. It's irrelevant in this discussion. Ashura's chakra making his BM superior doesn't help your argument regardless. 



> Matters only in situations where the other side can make a difference. This is not one of those situations.



Yes, yes it is.

MS powers are the antithesis of Bijuu powers.



> You used a false analogy: MS Obito actually has powers which can cope with BM, Itachi does not.



Amaterasu and Susano'o can both cope with it.



> Itachi has less than half of Sasuke's powers. Sasuke has superior chakra i.e. superior jutsu output. On top of that he's got Enton on a level far beyond Itachi. Let us not forget jutsu like the Chidori variants and so on.



Minato has less than half of Naruto's powers. Naruto has superior jutsu i.e. superior DC. On top of that he's got strength,  speed, and chakra sharing on a level far beyond minato. Lets not forget stuff like senjutsu and so on.

Two can play at that game.


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## lathia (Jun 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> *And Minato said Jiraiya was the perfect Shinobi, and Hashirama said Itachi was a better shinboi then himself (you know the guy who started Konoha + the will of fire) so let's not get to lost in "shinobi" hype.*
> 
> On Topic: Itachi and Minato are both his golden boys. Minato has more in verse hype because he was more famous and a Kage who fought the Kyuubi. Itachi was just renowned as the psycho genius who killed his whole clan.  But if we go strictly by author portrayal, then Itachi takes it. We have never seen him fail in combat, he stopped Edo Tensei and turned Kabuto, instructed Naruto, and changed sasuke, and he has never been bad mouthed by anyone c'ept Tobi (and that was after Itachi's death).
> 
> ...



That's fine but don't forget that Hagoromo praised Minato as well. Besides, Minato didn't praise Itachi. It was the other way. That alone ends that debate on who the most complete shinobi is. The one doing the praising with regards to where he failed (being an power arrogant loner).


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## Remsengan (Jun 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> . but he corrected these things when he came back giving Naruto and Sasuke advice that helped shaped them.



He got that second chance through pure accident.  Minato only got one chance and made it work.



Dr. White said:


> Minato failed at being a competent sensei because of the situation he was in which partially led to Obito becoming a psycho path and helping in Madara's plan and bolstering akatsuki.



Minato had no part in Obito's turn, unlike Itachi who directly crushed his brothers sanity, which in turn caused Sasuke to temporarily ally with Obito.



Dr. White said:


> Hell Jiraiaya technically is responsible for Nagato and akatsuki if you wanna play that game.



Jman made taught them jutsu and survival skills.  Akatsuki was the result of the war, and Nagato's condition was created by Obito and Danzo.  Jman was responsible for what little positive influence the children had in their lives, the evil turn was clearly Madara's design.



Dr. White said:


> At the end of the day Itachi stopped Konoha from having a civil war, then warring with other countries, kept it safe from akatsuki, and protected his brother. all things he succedded in until he death, then post mortem stopped ET and defeated Kabuto (a major war threat), and guided Sasuke to think for himself.



- He stopped a war...but was it worth it?  He completely annihilated a clan...women and children, to stop a war.  The ends barely justified the means, if at all.

- He kept it safe from Akatsuki only temporarily.  The second he croaked Pein crushed Konoha.  Another example of his plans not working to completion.

- He stopped Edo Tensei, but Madara was still around and most of the other zombies were already sealed, so it was a small victory.  He pointed his brother in the right direction, but this doesn't make up for mindfucking him and killing his parents in the first place.



Dr. White said:


> Sasuke used a B rank katon to set it up that is how much chakra he had left. You can't mitigate that lol. what else would he have gotten from the chakra he had left? He needed that heat to set up his trump card because Itachi was raping him with MS.



Sasuke used several Katons, broke Tsukuyomi, used the Cursed Seal and Oral Rebirth.  I'd say that's more than what Itachi has.



Dr. White said:


> How? Itachi was the Uchiha who broke the cycle of hatred in his own life and the most prodigous student ever. Minato is more in the Indra club, he was pretty much a genius from childhood as well.



Itachi stopped the cycle of hatred by murdering one side of the confrontation.  He promoted hatred in his brother and only after he came back to life did he give a flimsy speech to Sasuke, who still would have been evil if the Edo Hokages didn't set the record straight.

Minato was a genius of his own making.  He came from an un-notable background, learned and created his own jutsu through hard work, solo'd a war and produced the savior of the next generation.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 12, 2014)

Minato got praised by the sage

itachi, got praised by kaguya

if you ask me it's clear these are kishi's golden boys, no need to over think it really,  both genius/Kage level at young ages, both above sanin level at young ages both being hyped by rival sanin's, both dieing young, both getting revived back and fighting along side the main characters with identical power ups, both leaving behind power for the main characters after there death.


 like kishi made this real cut and dry I don't even see the point of trying to refute it other then to dehype, a character.


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## Azula (Jun 12, 2014)

kaguya and black zetsu clearly arent the same person


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2014)

Krippy said:


> No, he didn't. You repeating this doesn't make it any less false. He feats and skill are inferior just like with sage mode.



Say what it is that he can do, something you cannot make a case for.



> Wow, he can use BD. What a guy
> 
> You're missing the main point. The gap between him and his son is much larger than the gap between him and Itachi.
> 
> He has an avatar, not a distinct Bijuu cloak like his son.



Explain how this "distinct Bijuu cloak" means anything at all. 



> Changes nothing i.e. It's irrelevant in this discussion. Ashura's chakra making his BM superior doesn't help your argument regardless.



Changes everything: you aren't considering all the facts. There was no difference with their BM apart from appearance.

Yes, yes it is.



> MS powers are the antithesis of Bijuu powers.



Tell me again how MS powers used these "antithesis powers" against the Bijuu Modes. 




> Amaterasu and Susano'o can both cope with it.



Not according to pissed off Sasuke who saw BM and has these powers on a far higher level than Itachi does.



> Minato has less than half of Naruto's powers. Naruto has superior jutsu i.e. superior DC. On top of that he's got strength,  speed, and chakra sharing on a level far beyond minato. Lets not forget stuff like senjutsu and so on.
> 
> Two can play at that game.



Hiraishin and speed go to Minato. He also literally has Naruto's powers, the other Kurama.

You're trying too hard to *force* these parallels into Itachi and Minato's strength levels.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Not according to pissed off Sasuke who saw BM and has these powers on a far higher level than Itachi does.
> 
> 
> You're trying too hard to *force* these parallels into Itachi and Minato's strength levels.



To be fair that was before Sasuke awakened PS as for all we know he may have lacked experience to use it when he was surprised at how much Naruto did grow.

Also Sasuke had an identical reaction after seeing Naruto's rasengan in part 1 and yet his chidori at VOTE even with CS to power it up was able to match Naruto's jutsu. And even won during their final clash in their ultimate forms.

Furthermore as Itachi also has Susanoo V4 which was Sasuke's strongest till he awakened PS it wouldn't be surprising if Itachi's was still superior by having the legendary items that Sasuke's V4 Susanoo was not hinted to have. And while they are IMO extremely overhyped it is better to have a similar Susanoo with overhyped items than a similar Susanoo without those.

And while Itachi's skill with Amaterasu was already confirmed by Shi to be inferior to Sasuke's it seems that Itachi's genjustu(or at least Tsukuyomi) is superior to Sasuke's genjutsu according to Danzou so it levels up.

I believe that an Itachi with no stamina issues either by being "healthy"(though his stamina in that state is pure speculation admittedly) or by being an edo as he could spam Susanoo and Amaterasu without breaking a sweat. Surprisingly we saw Minato being tired so it seems that edos do not have infinite chakra but rather replensih their reserves faster than living humans and obviously cannot die of chakra overuse. Since Itachi was resurrected in his healthy state and had no moments when fatigue was starting to overwhelm him it woudn't be surprising if his chakra edo feats could qualify as Healthy Itachi feats. We saw Sasuke ask him at least once if he still has enough chakra to use Susanoo by the end which hinted that Itachi could actually end up exhausted despite being an edo.

My final opinion is that an Itachi with no stamina issues could arguably be on the same tier as base Minato while clearly inferior to BM Minato.


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## eyeknockout (Jun 12, 2014)

before revival minato had better portrayal and hype but less feats

after revival minato: his portrayal went down significantly to where itachi's portrayal was much greater, but minato still beats him in hype


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## Krippy (Jun 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Say what it is that he can do, something you cannot make a case for.



What Itachi can do? Totsuka gg.



> Explain how this "distinct Bijuu cloak" means anything at all.



Kishi didn't spend an entire chapter naming his bijuu cloak /avatar and giving him high end feats for nothing. BM cloak is far superior to KCM cloak.



> Changes everything: you aren't considering all the facts. There was no difference with their BM apart from appearance.



Not to mention his inferior feats and lack of versatility. 



> Tell me again how MS powers used these "antithesis powers" against the Bijuu Modes.



Amatarasu & Susano'o > bijuus

Kirabi knows.



> Not according to pissed off Sasuke who saw BM and has these powers on a far higher level than Itachi does.



Has absolutely nothing to do with his powers or his standing vs. Naruto. He was surprised how strong he got. 



> Hiraishin and speed go to Minato. He also literally has Naruto's powers, the other Kurama.



Offense and defense go to Itachi. He also literally has Sasuke's powers, his eyes.



> You're trying too hard to *force* these parallels into Itachi and Minato's strength levels.



I aint forcing shit. You have yet to counter even one of my parallel arguments. You are just trying to use naruto's feats as a reference instead of Minato's own when it's clear who's the much superior one in terms of power.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2014)

I'm confused. Minato and Naruto showed the  Biju Mode.

Also Krip, I'm not sure how Itachi beats Minato out on defense. His Susano'o's best tanking feat is Sasuke's paper bombs, and Minato's feat of teleporting the Jubidama takes a large dump on _any_ Susano'o tanking feat known.

Itachi's "offense" is also useless. Minato can just sense Amaterasu and avoid with Hiraishin, which is faster than the v2 Lightning Flicker. Other than that, what does he use, Magatama?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> To be fair that was before Sasuke awakened PS as for all we know he may have lacked experience to use it when he was surprised at how much Naruto did grow.



We know PS comes with the EMS and from what he showed, Sasuke had more than enough knowledge to use it. 
Suffice to say, using BM (the quantity and quality of chakra that can even be felt by non-sensors) probably helped Sasuke reach this assessment.



> Also Sasuke had an identical reaction after seeing Naruto's rasengan in part 1 and yet his chidori at VOTE even with CS to power it up was able to match Naruto's jutsu. And even won during their final clash in their ultimate forms.



Though BM and PS are very different in nature relative to those jutsu you cited. Sure they could fight each other, but Sasuke still acknowledge Rasengan would do more damage to its target should it land.



> Furthermore as Itachi also has Susanoo V4 which was Sasuke's strongest till he awakened PS it wouldn't be surprising if Itachi's was still superior by having the legendary items that Sasuke's V4 Susanoo was not hinted to have. And while they are IMO extremely overhyped it is better to have a similar Susanoo with overhyped items than a similar Susanoo without those.



Lets not talk about the legendary items: *every* Susanoo user who isn't Itachi has not been shown using that Susanoo for extended amount of times for a reason. That is, every user probably has said items. If it isn't the case: why skip that form? For instance: PS, fully stablised, has shown to have the same items with every user.



> And while Itachi's skill with Amaterasu was already confirmed by Shi to be inferior to Sasuke's it seems that Itachi's genjustu(or at least Tsukuyomi) is superior to Sasuke's genjutsu according to Danzou so it levels up.



Danzo said Sasuke's normal Genjutsu is weaker than Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Danzo has never compared two Tsukuyomi. 

In fact: against the Kumo nin, Bee and even Danzo, Sasuke has shown equal skill with Tsukuyomi. That's one of the skills one needs to master to acquire Susanoo.

Unless you have some differing genetics, seemingly e.g. how Shisui/Obito had Hashirama's chakra.



> I believe that an Itachi with no stamina issues either by being "healthy"(though his stamina in that state is pure speculation admittedly) or by being an edo as he could spam Susanoo and Amaterasu without breaking a sweat. Surprisingly we saw Minato being tired so it seems that edos do not have infinite chakra but rather replensih their reserves faster than living humans and obviously cannot die of chakra overuse. Since Itachi was resurrected in his healthy state and had no moments when fatigue was starting to overwhelm him it woudn't be surprising if his chakra edo feats could qualify as Healthy Itachi feats. We saw Sasuke ask him at least once if he still has enough chakra to use Susanoo by the end which hinted that Itachi could actually end up exhausted despite being an edo.



One question: why did Zetsu *never* say Itachi's chakra capacity was an issue? Perhaps because in that sick state his chakra capacity was _identical_ to how it was when he's "healthy".

Edo Itachi is the only one who lacks stamina issues.

Minato's tiredness is obviously due to the fact he used *a lot more chakra* very often. Unlike what Itachi was doing; Itachi didn't use insane amounts of chakra frequently. Ergo Edo Itachi's feats don't count as healthy Itachi feats. Itachi literally died of chakra exhaustion when he used the MS about 5 times. That means a lot as a being (Zetsu) who knew Itachi's capabilities such as speed, saw no problems with things such as stamina/chakra capacity. So Edo Itachi is superior in that his little reserves recover quickly.



Krippy said:


> What Itachi can do? Totsuka gg.



That is the most silly argument I've seen here.

You didn't even read the post: what can Naruto do that you believe Minato cannot? It needs to be something that you cannot argue Minato can do.



> Kishi didn't spend an entire chapter naming his bijuu cloak /avatar and giving him high end feats for nothing. BM cloak is far superior to KCM cloak.



That's seeing something that isn't there. Minato still had access to BM.

Unless you have *proof* that the BMs differ in some meaningful way apart from appearance. Then it is going to only come across that you're trying to use meaningless points to *force* a parallel to work.

Of course, one would say the Asura chakra would influence the appearance, but you supposedly have some irrefutable evidence that doubtlessly proves Naruto's BM>Minato's. Something more substantive than "Naruto looks different". 



> Not to mention his inferior feats and lack of versatility.



Things you like to mention but not cite. 



> Amatarasu & Susano'o > bijuus
> 
> Kirabi knows.



Weak argument.

A supreme Amaterasu and Susanoo user felt inferior to BM. Naruto's BM=Minato's BM>Bee's BM.
Unless you want to claim that Bee's BM = Naruto's. 



> Has absolutely nothing to do with his powers or his standing vs. Naruto. He was surprised how strong he got.



And felt intimidated by it, the same guy who got intimidated when he saw Naruto was _exceeding_ him. 



> Offense and defense go to Itachi. He also literally has Sasuke's powers, his eyes.



You say this but you have no adequate evidence.

Sasuke is the one with superior versions of Itachi's MS powers. Itachi just has weakened versions of Sasuke's powers with some different base jutsu and appalling stamina.

Sasuke is a stronger version of Itachi.



> I aint forcing shit. You have yet to counter even one of my parallel arguments. You are just trying to use naruto's feats as a reference instead of Minato's own when it's clear who's the much superior one in terms of power.



I've countered your points but you don't refute said counters then slap a weak point with no support and consider it a counter. Why? To force a parallel which has no bearing in power whatsoever.

You think Naruto's BM is superior than Minato's? Then actually use something substantive to support this point rather than appearance. 

Also when you're not providing adequate evidence for why Minato's BM =/= Naruto's and you're assuming Itachi has *EMS* Sasuke's powers... that generally means you're trying to *force* this parallel to work.

Just because Minato and Itachi are parallels in that they hold a significance to Naruto and Sasuke's characters, it *does not mean* that they *must* be equal in power. In fact, Kishimoto has shown us that isn't the case. I.E. you're viewing the parallel incorrectly if you think Minato must be equal to Itachi i npower.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm confused. Minato and Naruto showed the  Biju Mode.
> 
> Also Krip, I'm not sure how Itachi beats Minato out on defense.* His Susano'o's best tanking feat is Sasuke's paper bombs*, and Minato's feat of teleporting the Jubidama takes a large dump on _any_ Susano'o tanking feat known.
> 
> Itachi's "offense" is also useless. Minato can just sense Amaterasu and avoid with Hiraishin, which is faster than the v2 Lightning Flicker. Other than that, what does he use, Magatama?



Yes lets forget about Kirin


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes lets forget about Kirin



Susanoo got taken out of the battlefield when Kirin hit it. Tanking Kirin means staying around after Kirin strikes.

Bijuu-Dama would completely destroy Itachi's Susanoo forms, which are by far inferior to perfected Susanoo forms that Sasuke/Madara have access to. Sasuke with such superior forms felt threatened by BM.

Itachi with severely little chakra relative to all the relevant characters ITT with very imperfect Susanoo (which has a weakness that perfect forms of Susanoo lacks) would probably fall to Bijuu-Dama.


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## Dr. White (Jun 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Susanoo got taken out of the battlefield when Kirin hit it. Tanking Kirin means staying around after Kirin strikes.
> 
> Bijuu-Dama would completely destroy Itachi's Susanoo forms, which are by far inferior to perfected Susanoo forms that Sasuke/Madara have access to. Sasuke with such superior forms felt threatened by BM.
> 
> Itachi with severely little chakra relative to all the relevant characters ITT with very imperfect Susanoo (which has a weakness that perfect forms of Susanoo lacks) would probably fall to Bijuu-Dama.



And how do you know which form he used? Also he lol pulled it up again. Kirin abd TBB seem to have to same rate of hitting the target to so Itachi should be money. Also if Hachibi can tank his own TBB there is no way Stage 4 Susano with yata can't.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> And how do you know which form he used? Also he lol pulled it up again. Kirin abd TBB seem to have to same rate of hitting the target to so Itachi should be money. Also if Hachibi can tank his own TBB there is no way Stage 4 Susano with yata can't.



You're telling me that you know which form Itachi used?

TBB and Kirin aren't the same. TBB would be more damaging. If Susanoo had a hard time against Kirin, then TBB would demolish it. 

Yata couls plausibly. However all other forms, and targeting other parts of Susanoo would demolish Susanoo. 

BM is simply too much for Susanoo levels that someone can Itachi can use. You need abilities like Sasuke/Madara for Susanoo to be useful against competent Bijuu users.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Susanoo got taken out of the battlefield when Kirin hit it. Tanking Kirin means staying around after Kirin strikes.
> 
> Bijuu-Dama would completely destroy Itachi's Susanoo forms, which are by far inferior to perfected Susanoo forms that Sasuke/Madara have access to. Sasuke with such superior forms felt threatened by BM.
> 
> Itachi with severely little chakra relative to all the relevant characters ITT with very imperfect Susanoo (which has a weakness that perfect forms of Susanoo lacks) would probably fall to Bijuu-Dama.



Going by evidence and common knowledge Itachi blocked Kirin with Stage 1.5-2. 

Hachibee tanked his own bijuudama. Didn't block it, took it point blank and tanked it. 

Susano'o has better durabiltiy feats than Hachibee. He should be able to tank a bijuudama with Yata without any trouble.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Going by evidence and common knowledge Itachi blocked Kirin with Stage 1.5-2.



When you have this evidence, let me know.



> Hachibee tanked his own bijuudama. Didn't block it, took it point blank and tanked it.



Bijuu Mode =/= Susanoo. 



> Susano'o has better durabiltiy feats than Hachibee. He should be able to tank a bijuudama with Yata without any trouble.



Explain why you think this.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When you have this evidence, let me know.


Itachi can't form Stage 4 Susano'o instantly, let alone form it and lift up the shield to block it lightning. Unless ofc you think Itachi's Susano'o can form and move faster than lightning.

Also after Itachi gets up, we see the ribcage of stage 2 Susano'o. Logical conclusion is that it is the form he used to block the lightning.



> Bijuu Mode =/= Susanoo.


I never said it was.



> Explain why you think this.


A casually karate chopped Hachibee's horn. He couldn't even damage Madara's stage 1.5 with the same attack.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi can't form Stage 4 Susano'o instantly, let alone form it and lift up the shield to block it lightning. Unless ofc you think Itachi's Susano'o can form and move faster than lightning.
> 
> Also after Itachi gets up, we see the ribcage of stage 2 Susano'o. Logical conclusion is that it is the form he used to block the lightning.



When did I reference a certain Susanoo forum?

Ribcage is stage 1.



> I never said it was.



Ergo what you said isn't really applicable here.



> A casually karate chopped Hachibee's horn. He couldn't even damage Madara's stage 1.5 with the same attack.



And Hachibee's durability is the same as Kurama's, therefore?

Think before you answer: FRS didn't penetrate Kurama while Chidori Eisou cut a tentacle.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When did I reference a certain Susanoo forum


You didn't, thats why I needed to clarify it.



> Ribcage is stage 1.


Nah I was talking about the ribcage around Itachi after Kirin. It was the size of V2.



> Ergo what you said isn't really applicable here.


Why ? 




> And Hachibee's durability is the same as Kurama's, therefore?


What does it have anything to do with what I said ? 



> Think before you answer: FRS didn't penetrate Kurama while Chidori Eisou cut a tentacle.


And YRS couldn't slice Madara in half while Sasuke's chidori sword went through him like hot knife through butter. Your point being ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You didn't, thats why I needed to clarify it.



We debated Kirin vs Susanoo many times before, it was obvious which one I referred to. 




> What does it have anything to do with what I said ?



So because Bee tanked his BD, it has no bearing ITT.



> And YRS couldn't slice Madara in half while Sasuke's chidori sword went through him like hot knife through butter. Your point being ?



You're going to use a super tank's (Madara) encounter vs Youton and a Indra chakra powered Sasuke to try to say that Kurama's durability is inferior to Susanoo?


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## Dr. White (Jun 14, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > You're telling me that you know which form Itachi used?
> 
> 
> Did I claim that? Fact is you are making a claim that his strongest Susano from got busted by Karin, burden of proof is on you. We have only ever seen him imeediately pull out stage 2 Susano, and that is the form Kishi immediately revealed to Sasuke (subsequently the first time we saw the jutsu right after it was implied to save Itachi). Burden of proof is on you and from a literary standpoint there is no evidence, I'd even say evdience to the contrary, that he used V4.
> ...


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes lets forget about Kirin



I said "tank."

Not "get obliterated by."


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 14, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Did I claim that? Fact is you are making a claim that his strongest Susano from got busted by Karin, burden of proof is on you. We have only ever seen him imeediately pull out stage 2 Susano, and that is the form Kishi immediately revealed to Sasuke (subsequently the first time we saw the jutsu right after it was implied to save Itachi). Burden of proof is on you and from a literary standpoint there is no evidence, I'd even say evdience to the contrary, that he used V4.



When did I make the claim? 

Your point makes no sense whatsoever as it presupposes I cited the strongest Susanoo.



> Once again we don't know what form is used. If V2 (assuming that's the one he used) save him from Kirin minus a few scorch marks then V4 can be scaled upward. The matter is ambiguous as of know so there is really no use in making claims like you are trying to do.



We have an idea on which form. The manga suggests that V1.

But Susanoo didn't tank Kirin. Moreover don't underestimate Kirin. Without the universal Susanoo shield, Susanoo may very well be obliterated.
Apart from the Tengu form.


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