# False King Allant (Demon's Souls) vs Gwyn, Lord of Cinder (Dark Souls)



## smoothrunes (Mar 3, 2013)

Battle of the badass bosses.

In the crimson corner: Gwyn, Lord of Cinder



And his opponent: The False King



Battleground: Kiln of the First Flame


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 3, 2013)

Gwen whips his cock out. Allant learns his true place in the world.


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## Shoddragon (Mar 4, 2013)

Hollowed Gwyn beats his ass. Prime Gwyn....... I just...... think about what you just did.please? just.... damn. Gwyn was the god that other gods feared :/.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Aside for speed more or less being balanced?

Dark Souls has quantifiably better destructive feats and durability IIRC.

Demon's kind of caps at large building level from the feats I recall.

Though I really can't say for sure, don't remember everything well enough.


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## Shoddragon (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Aside for speed more or less being balanced?
> 
> Dark Souls has *quantifiably better destructive feats and durability IIRC.*
> 
> ...



understatement of the year.  Prime Gwyn is probably the strongest character in Dark Souls and is an absolute monster, especially when compared to False King Allant.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

True, but I'm never one to discount missing something in a game where the story is told through reading item descriptions 

Still, I can't remember anything that'd place Demon's Souls on par with Dark Souls destructively atm, so the point is moot.

Though the Old One in Demon's has fairly potent soul fuck IIRC


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> True, but I'm never one to discount missing something in a game where the story is told through reading item descriptions
> 
> Still, I can't remember anything that'd place Demon's Souls on par with Dark Souls destructively atm, so the point is moot.
> 
> Though the Old One in Demon's has fairly potent soul fuck IIRC



Gwyn was stronger than ornstien who himself destroyed a country


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

In the context of Dark Souls feats?

Sure, I can believe him soloing a country, but destroying it in one attack?

Not so much.


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## Zhen Chan (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> In the context of Dark Souls feats?
> 
> Sure, I can believe him soloing a country, but destroying it in one attack?
> 
> Not so much.



In context ornstien was significantly weaker after death

but yeah not in 1 attack


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## Shoddragon (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> True, but I'm never one to discount missing something in a game where the story is told through reading item descriptions
> 
> Still, I can't remember anything that'd place Demon's Souls on par with Dark Souls destructively atm, so the point is moot.
> 
> *Though the Old One in Demon's has fairly potent soul fuck IIRC*



doesn't meant much when soul manipulation is literally.... well.... the entire point of dark souls XD. I mean people like Gwyn don't have any trouble ripping out their own souls and splitting them into pieces ( I'm not sure how that works but fuck logic) and then giving those pieces to people.

Still, that wouldn't translate well to this match for fake king allant. I don't recall anything useful to powerscale him off of that would allow him to even remotely a threat here.


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## Xiammes (Mar 4, 2013)

I am curious, I always thought Demons Souls was the stronger between the two. Since when was this changed?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

I mean, the  available to the chosen undead is quantifiably superior alone.  Not to mention the enchantments can be powerscaled off this shit as well more or less.

And I can't remember shit outside the dragon god that comes close to matching  physically.

And gaping dragon is fairly dog piss power wise.  Iron Golem, Gywn's 4 Knights, Smough, The Lords, Gywn?  All more than capable of better.

I could be forgetting shit from Demon's, but just the shit I've done for Dark Souls briefly stands out as superior.

Not to forget shit like Gywn's soul being powerful enough to ignite kiln and keep it lit for hundreds of years.  Igniting kiln basically being a town level feat on its own.


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## Xiammes (Mar 4, 2013)

> I mean, the  available to the chosen undead is quantifiably superior alone.  Not to mention the enchantments can be powerscaled off this shit as well more or less.



Available magic is better, but I don't see how they can be powerscaled unless their is something in the lore.

You should take a look at Flamelurkers fire, it has a pretty big AoE.




> And I can't remember shit outside the dragon god that comes close to matching  physically.



Vanguard, Tower Knight, Flame Fucker, Ancient Hero, and Dragon God should be capable of similar feats




> Not to forget shit like Gywn's soul being powerful enough to ignite kiln and keep it lit for hundreds of years.  Igniting kiln basically being a town level feat on its own.



I'd like to see a calc for this eventually.

 I don't doubt Gywn is stronger then False King Allant lore wise, but I am still under the Demons was overall stronger as a verse.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Available magic is better, but I don't see how they can be powerscaled unless their is something in the lore.



Its his magical power, and shit like darkmoon blade and crystal magic weapon are some of the more powerful magic/miracles.  The energy he generates with top tier pyromancy shit is easily powerscalable to top tier magic and miracles.



> You should take a look at Flamelurkers fire, it has a pretty big AoE.



AOE alone I'd figure was large building level, but I'd prefer if he could be shown destroying shit at the edges with it as well, so I could so surface area shit with it for a more proper yield.  Same with Allant really, but his is far less useful in combat.



> Vanguard, Tower Knight, Flame Fucker, Ancient Hero, and Dragon God should be capable of similar feats



Can you possibly link me some screen shots?  Because outside dragon god, I can't remember comparable.

Ancient Hero's feat was lesser than this IIRC, but still fairly solid.



> I'd like to see a calc for this eventually.



I have a few calcs in mind, just that Dark Souls' map isn't readily available as far as I can tell.

Guess I could find the fuckers slowed down for our perceptions running speed and clock the size of shit that way *shrugs*



> I don't doubt Gywn is stronger then False King Allant lore wise, but I am still under the Demons was overall stronger as a verse.



Eh, maybe the Old One on the whole is more powerful than individual fuckers in Dark Souls, but I'm hard pressed to remember specific feats that'd put Demon's concretely above Dark.

Especially historical Dark Souls with the numerous Everlasting Dragons and Gods.


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## Xiammes (Mar 4, 2013)

> Its his magical power, and shit like darkmoon blade and crystal magic weapon are some of the more powerful magic/miracles.  The energy he generates with top tier pyromancy shit is easily powerscalable to top tier magic and miracles.



I don't know about that, Pyromancy is known because its simple, powerful and effective. I



> AOE alone I'd figure was large building level, but I'd prefer if he could be shown destroying shit at the edges with it as well, so I could so surface area shit with it for a more proper yield.  Same with Allant really, but his is far less useful in combat.



Theirs a bunch of Dragonbones laying around, he might be capale of melting destroying it.



> Can you possibly link me some screen shots?  Because outside dragon god, I can't remember comparable.




Vanguard, destroys several pillers in a single swing. Tower Knight should be capable due to size and sheer weight.  Flame fucker probably not, don't know why I said him. Adjudicator also destroyed the stair cases in his arena.

Not a physical feat, but it would be pretty simple to calc the weight of its spears and PE or KE of them.




> Ancient Hero's feat was lesser than this IIRC, but still fairly solid.



Just as casual, but yeah I think its a bit less.




> I have a few calcs in mind, just that Dark Souls' map isn't readily available as far as I can tell.



I don't think there is a map.



> Eh, maybe the Old One on the whole is more powerful than individual fuckers in Dark Souls, but I'm hard pressed to remember specific feats that'd put Demon's concretely above Dark.



There is the Lands of Giants, the 6th Archstone that was never explored which I believe is the real seperator of the series. It was the first to fall, Boletaria sent hundred of thousands of knights to defeat the Giants, but when they realized it was in vain they destroyed the Archstone. Only one offical photo exists.

this


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I don't know about that, Pyromancy is known because its simple, powerful and effective.



Its simplicity is exactly why it can be powerscaled.

Both magic and miracles have a higher payout than pyromancy.  They're overall shown to be superior, taking investment inorder to grow.

Pyromancy can be picked up by any asshole and have them become moderately competent.



> Theirs a bunch of Dragonbones laying around, he might be capale of melting destroying it.



Don't recall any melting, but assuming he can fragment them, that's something.



> Vanguard, destroys several pillers in a single swing. Tower Knight should be capable due to size and sheer weight.



Tower Knight I can buy.  Vanguard did destroy some pillars, but I don't recall them being all that high in volume.



> Flame fucker probably not, don't know why I said him. Adjudicator also destroyed the stair cases in his arena.



The stairs one is fairly impressive I suppose.



> Not a physical feat, but it would be pretty simple to calc the weight of its spears and PE or KE of them.



Sure.



> Just as casual, but yeah I think its a bit less.



Yep.



> I don't think there is a map.



Then what is it we're running around on 

But seriously, I just need to find some program that extracts the ingame map from the PC game or something.



> There is the Lands of Giants, the 6th Archstone that was never explored which I believe is the real seperator of the series. It was the first to fall, Boletaria sent hundred of thousands of knights to defeat the Giants, but when they realized it was in vain they destroyed the Archstone. Only one offical photo exists.



Huh, forgot about this I guess.

The shit portrayed in the image canon?  Or is it just a dropped concept?


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## Xiammes (Mar 4, 2013)

> Its simplicity is exactly why it can be powerscaled. Both magic and miracles have a higher payout than pyromancy. They're overall shown to be superior, taking investment inorder to grow.



Considering they need differant values for magic/faith/intelligence, I don't think they can.



> Pyromancy can be picked up by any asshole and have them become moderately competent.



Its simplicity works against it, Pyromancy has always been shown to be the more destructive force, its the reason why most of the people who study it are hermits.

I'm just not to sure about powerscaling the most destructive spell in the most destructive magic class to less destructive magic classes.




> Don't recall any melting, but assuming he can fragment them, that's something.



You may be be right about the melting.




> Tower Knight I can buy.  Vanguard did destroy some pillars, but I don't recall them being all that high in volume.



Pillers were pretty tall, but yeah they weren't all that wide.




> then what is it we're running around on
> 
> But seriously, I just need to find some program that extracts the ingame map from the PC game or something.




You might find one laying around, I would look but I am currently on dial up tier internet.



> Huh, forgot about this I guess.
> 
> The shit portrayed in the image canon?  Or is it just a dropped concept?



Canon, its a picture of the battle that took place in the sixth archstone.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Considering they need differant values for magic/faith/intelligence, I don't think they can.



No, you definately can.



> Its simplicity works against it, Pyromancy has always been shown to be the more destructive force, its the reason why most of the people who study it are hermits.



Its more destructive in general, but to suggest that the branches of spells utilized by the 4 lords (and fuckers like manus) are any lesser than the strongest pyromancy is fucking laughable.



> I'm just not to sure about powerscaling the most destructive spell in the most destructive magic class to weaker magic classes.



Shit like gywn's sunlight spear and shit like the shit like pursuers from Manus and crystal magic a la seath?  No, you can definately powerscale the most destructive spells of each branch to one another.



> You may be be right about the melting.



Pretty sure I am.



> Pillers were pretty tall, but yeah they weren't all that wide.



Remember, the radius is being squared, thus plays a larger component in the volume calc than the height.



> You might find one laying around, I would look but I am currently on dial up tier internet.



I might eventually, been shitty luck looking so far though.



> Canon, its a picture of the battle that took place in the sixth archstone.



That's cool, wish we had got to play in that archstone honestly


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## Xiammes (Mar 4, 2013)

> Its more destructive in general, but to suggest that the branches of spells utilized by the 4 lords (and fuckers like manus) are any lesser than the strongest pyromancy is fucking laughable.
> 
> Shit like gywn's sunlight spear and shit like the shit like pursuers from Manus and crystal magic a la seath?  No, you can definately powerscale the most destructive spells of each branch to one another.



You are arguing the most destructive branch of magic isn't actually the most destructive. It doesn't make the other branches of magic any lesser, it just means they have more ultility, giving them the same power as Pyromancy lessens the Bed of Chaos(source of all demons) and the Witch of Izalith.




> Remember, the radius is being squared, thus plays a larger component in the volume calc than the height.



Don't remember.




> That's cool, wish we had got to play in that archstone honestly



Its the one thing we expected for DLC but never got.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 5, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> You are arguing the most destructive branch of magic isn't actually the most destructive. It doesn't make the other branches of magic any lesser, it just means they have more ultility, giving them the same power as Pyromancy lessens the Bed of Chaos(source of all demons) and the Witch of Izalith.



No chuckle fuck.

I'm arguing that pyromancy on the whole can be the most powerful if you will, but the branches of magic or miracles done by Gywn, Seath, or Manus?

You're fucking high as hell if you honestly believe they don't fucking compare 



> Its the one thing we expected for DLC but never got.



Shit happens/


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## Xiammes (Mar 5, 2013)

> I'm arguing that pyromancy on the whole can be the most powerful if you will, but the branches of magic or miracles done by Gywn, Seath, or Manus?



More ultitilty, fire users can't heal themseves, can't pull up fire shields, turn themselves or their weapons invisable, cure their aliements, repair their weapons, teleport, cancle casting of magic, imbue their weapons with power or transform themselves.

You can do more with magic/faith then you could ever do with pyromancy. Its natural the hyper offense magic is the most destructive.



> You're fucking high as hell if you honestly believe they don't fucking compare



Comparable? Maybe, but I am not for equating differant systems of magic to each other.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 5, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> More ultitilty, fire users can't heal themseves, can't pull up fire shields, turn themselves or their weapons invisable, cure their aliements, repair their weapons, teleport, cancle casting of magic, imbue their weapons with power or transform themselves.



Its nothing about utility dipshit.

Durability doesn't allow for such major gaps between the most powerful shit.



> You can do more with magic/faith then you could ever do with pyromancy. Its natural the hyper offense magic is the most destructive.



You're going in circles chuckles.

Are you really suggesting the 4 lords, fuckers of more or less comparable power, didn't possess roughly equivalent magics at the highest expression of said magic?  You can pretend the utility grants a minor advantage to both spells and miracles, fact of the matter is?  The highest expressions of magic and miracles are pure destructive force.



> Comparable? Maybe, but I am not for equating differant systems of magic to each other.



Energy is energy chuckles.

Outside gameplay mechanics?  Split durability doesn't exist, and you'd best not try and pretend otherwise.


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## Xiammes (Mar 5, 2013)

> Its nothing about utility dipshit.
> 
> Durability doesn't allow for such major gaps between the most powerful shit.



Whose durability are we talking about? You keep on acting like pyromancy is the baseline to be able to hurt enemies.




> Are you really suggesting the 4 lords, fuckers of more or less comparable power, didn't possess roughly equivalent magics at the highest expression of said magic?  You can pretend the utility grants a minor advantage to both spells and miracles, fact of the matter is?  The highest expressions of magic and miracles are pure destructive force.



Utility is a major advantage, Seathe made himself effectively immortal through his magic, Gravelord Nito controls the dead. Why in the hell would they need to have the same destructive capacity as someone like the Witch of Izalith or Bed of Chaos?

There is nothing saying they can't be powerful themselves, but they shouldn't be able to match the destructive force that Pyromancy allows. The feat in question isn't that impressive, each the Lords should have better feats by themselves.




> Energy is energy chuckles.
> 
> Outside gameplay mechanics?  Split durability doesn't exist, and you'd best not try and pretend otherwise



Never claimed split durability. You are claiming that 3 differant types of magics should all have the same output.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 5, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Whose durability are we talking about? You keep on acting like pyromancy is the baseline to be able to hurt enemies.



Wow... you can't be this dense.

Its fucking ridiculous 

No, its not baseline to hurt the enemies, but its not so far above baseline where the higher end spells of the other magic branches don't compare.  Large building level is an all around stat for the high end magics chuckles.



> Utility is a major advantage, Seathe made himself effectively immortal through his magic, Gravelord Nito controls the dead. Why in the hell would they need to have the same destructive capacity as someone like the Witch of Izalith or Bed of Chaos?



Seathe was far from immortal before slaying his breathen chuckle fuck.  He didn't slay the fuckers because he was immortal, that's not a fucking advantage.  His ultimate goal was immortality, much like his breathen, but his destructive power wasn't much lesser than the Witch of Izalith by virtue of the mound of corpses we see his ass sitting on top of in the opening scene.

Nito?  Much like the other lords?  He has a piece of the fucking lord's soul.  What?  Are you stupid enough to claim the souls granted disproportionate levels of magical might?



> There is nothing saying they can't be powerful themselves, but they shouldn't be able to match the destructive force that Pyromancy allows.



And yet, feats would say Gwyn begs to differ.

What with housing the defacto most powerful soul of all fuckers, which all forms of magic draw their power from in the first place.



> The feat in question isn't that impressive, each the Lords should have better feats by themselves.



You're right, it isn't impressive in the grand scheme of things, and by the end of the game, the chosen undead's soul has more power than even the shit I calced behind it anyway.  He was more than capable of relighting the Kiln and all.



> Never claimed split durability. You are claiming that 3 differant types of magics should all have the same output.



Don't straw man my argument's dipshit.

You can't fucking read.  Same output?  Nah, that's not required, but his pyromancy isn't going to be so above the other high tiered magic as to where they aren't within large building level themselves.

After all, if the chaos spells were really that far above what the chosen undead could produce?  Their bodies should be fucking reduced to ash.

Not to mention, why the fuck are we ignoring that, on the one hand, Chaos Great Fireball is far from capable of oneshotting most PVP built characters, yet you have shit like pursuers, crystal homing soul mass, and other such fun shit with the potential to outright kill you much like Chaos Storm?


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## Xiammes (Mar 5, 2013)

> Wow... you can't be this dense.



You'd be suprised




> Seathe was far from immortal before slaying his breathen chuckle fuck.  He didn't slay the fuckers because he was immortal, that's not a fucking advantage.  His ultimate goal was immortality, much like his breathen, but his destructive power wasn't much lesser than the Witch of Izalith by virtue of the mound of corpses we see his ass sitting on top of in the opening scene.



You misunderstood me, I wasn't trying to imply he was immortal during the war. The amount of corpses somehow makes his DC more comparable to the Witch of Izalith? 



> Nito?  Much like the other lords?  He has a piece of the fucking lord's soul.  What? Are you stupid enough to claim the souls granted disproportionate levels of magical might?



Of course not, considering he is the lord of death and disease, since when does this constitute that he can blow shit up on the level of Witch of Izalith?




> And yet, feats would say Gwyn begs to differ.
> 
> What with housing the defacto most powerful soul of all fuckers, which all forms of magic draw their power from in the first place.



Of course with feats, Gwyn is supposed to be stronger.




> You can't fucking read.  Same output?  Nah, that's not required, but his pyromancy isn't going to be so above the other high tiered magic as to where they aren't within large building level themselves.



Okay, I now understand where you are coming from, and I agree to a extent. How ever I am saying they shouldn't powerscale them to the same output, but I see nothing wrong with the other high tiered magic being large building level. Thats where my misunderstanding came from.




> Not to mention, why the fuck are we ignoring that, on the one hand, Chaos Great Fireball is far from capable of oneshotting most PVP built characters, yet you have shit like pursuers, crystal homing soul mass, and other such fun shit with the potential to outright kill you much like Chaos Storm?



Game mechanics, lore determines and feats determine how strong something is, not ingame numbers.


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## Shoddragon (Mar 5, 2013)

Pyromancy isn't necessarily the most destructive type of magic. It just happens to be the easiest to use since simply having the pyromancy flame will allow you capable to use any pyromancy abilities you have learned. it just means that the power of the attacks flow from the pyromancy flame itself. The only way you can increase damage is by boosting said flame unless you are using chaos magic ( like chaos fireball) which scales with humanity but that makes sense..... because chaos flames would be closest to that of the witch of izalith who tried re-creating the first flame, which in turn is powered by humanity ( hence humans being sacrificed to power bonfires.... Gwyn using his soul to light the kiln which wound up taking away all of his humanity as well... hence him being hollow at end game).

I mean people like Quelaag can shoot out huge globs of lava and melt rock with utter ease, her sister literally gives you the chaos fireball just by joining her covenant.

both those characters are complete and utter dick cheese compared to the Four Lords ( Seath who was able to grant himself a form of immortality via research into the scales of immortality, Nito who destroyed lots of dragons with his diseases and miasma of death, the four kings who are beasts in their own right and the bed of chaos who was once the witch of izalith), all of whom in turn are complete garbage compared to Gwyn at his max.

So scaling should be perfectly usable. also, Chaos brings up an interesting point with the fact that even chaos great fireball can be completely shit in PVP and yet sorceries can devastate. Mainly because what that shows us is that sorcery is extremely powerful and very difficult to defend against whereas pyromancies are still fire attacks  that can be blocked with the right equipment.


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## Xiammes (Mar 5, 2013)

> Pyromancy isn't necessarily the most destructive type of magic. It just happens to be the easiest to use since simply having the pyromancy flame will allow you capable to use any pyromancy abilities you have learned.




After reading this, I looked up to find out to see if it was the most destructive magic, I couldn't find any quotes. So that completely destroys my arguement and makes me feel retarded. I apologise for wasting your time Chaos.



> So scaling should be perfectly usable. also, Chaos brings up an interesting point with the fact that even chaos great fireball can be completely shit in PVP and yet sorceries can devastate. Mainly because what that shows us is that sorcery is extremely powerful and very difficult to defend against whereas pyromancies are still fire attacks  that can be blocked with the right equipment.



The reason why chaos great fireball and other pyromancies suck in pvp is because it leaves you vulnerable.


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## Shoddragon (Mar 5, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> After reading this, I looked up to find out to see if it was the most destructive magic, I couldn't find any quotes. So that completely destroys my arguement and makes me feel retarded. I apologise for wasting your time Chaos.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason why chaos great fireball and other pyromancies suck in pvp is *because it leaves you vulnerable*.



that's the same with a lot of sorceries and even some miracles as well. but that isn't why it sucks. the black knight shield can block 95% of fire damage and higher tier armors like havel's, stone armor or giants can block most of the damage as well. the projectile pyromancies can bounce off good shields easily D: . but my point is that it serves to how that fire is easy to defend against while magic is very difficult to.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 5, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> After reading this, I looked up to find out to see if it was the most destructive magic, I couldn't find any quotes. So that completely destroys my arguement and makes me feel retarded. I apologise for wasting your time Chaos.



Nah, no problem.

I couldn't remember where it said that myself, but I didn't think to call you out on it to confirm it, given it was kind of late at night while I was having my back and forth with you.

So, not like I didn't contribute to wasting my own time.


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