# Suiryu vs Beefcake Marugori



## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

I was able to get it accepted in the OPM tier list thread that Suiryu is above Beefcake Marugori in DC/Durability with the evidence that in the latest chapter Suiryu broke a low dragon class monster's toe (and he was already seen as faster with how his fight with monster choze was portrayed with them blitzing all over the place). However being a bit stronger and a good bit faster is not always enough to guarantee a win.

Would Suiryu be able to give Marugori the Giant Piccolo treatment and use his bigger size against him because his weak points would be easier to target? Or would Marugori's larger AOE make his blows too hard to dodge or counter/parry leading to Suiryu eventually getting worn out?

Setting: Z city

Scenario 1: Marugori has his brother sitting on his shoulder giving him orders so he can fight a bit smarter.

Scenario 2: Marugori is fighting alone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zhen Chan (May 15, 2017)

Beefcake steps on him

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Toratorn (May 15, 2017)

Marugori literally stomps, Suiryu being annywhere near him is bull, just like scaling a nigh-featless alleged dragon off Marugori just because "dragon > demon".

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

Is Bakuzan confirmed to be Dragon-level? I mean Gouketsu claimed he probably was but do we have a guarantee?

Can't powerscale Suiryu with that feat either. 

Beefcake stomps. No idea why he was just Demon-level when the guy destroyed a huge chunk of a city with just a swipe of his hand.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Marugori literally stomps, Suiryu being anywhere near him is bull, just like scaling a nigh-featless alleged dragon off Marugori just because "dragon > demon".



Gouketsu himself acknowledged Monster Bakuzan as dragon class. Monster Bakuzan is definitely > Marugori and Suiryu harming a dragon class monster like Monster Bakuzan even though he's low dragon class is still > anything Marugori has ever done.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu himself acknowledged Monster Bakuzan as dragon class. Monster Bakuzan is definitely > Marugori and Suiryu harming a dragon class monster like Monster Bakuzan even though he's low dragon class is still > anything Marugori has ever done.


And what makes you think Gouketsu was right?


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## Toratorn (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu himself acknowledged Monster Bakuzan as dragon class. Monster Bakuzan is definitely > Marugori and Suiryu harming a dragon class monster like Monster Bakuzan even though he's low dragon class is still > anything Marugori has ever done.


So... Still that "dragon must be above demon" stuff? When it was shown in series that the disaster ratings are extremely flawed and unrelieble? Vaccine Man was a dragon, and his feats sucked compared even to House of Evolution atc Genos. Do the math.

Prove that Bakuzan or Suiryu scale to Marugori via actual scaling and feats, and then you're golden. Otherwise, Beffcake steps on him.


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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Juub said:


> Is Bakuzan confirmed to be Dragon-level? I mean Gouketsu claimed he probably was but do we have a guarantee?



Gouketsu has shown to be excellent at judging a character's strength. And he is a dragon level mysterious being himself so he would know another dragon level. 



Juub said:


> Can't powerscale Suiryu with that feat either.
> 
> Beefcake stomps. No idea why he was just Demon-level when the guy destroyed a huge chunk of a city with just a swipe of his hand.



 

Suiryu broke Monster Bakuzan's toe. There is no indication Beefcake would be able to do anything like that to a dragon level monster. We've already seen demon level mysterious beings that have city level+ destructive capacity and durability with the ones that have managed to do damage to Genos despite his durability (Face Ripper, Awakened Cockroach, Sea King) so there is nothing that places Beefcake above demon level.


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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> So... Still that "dragon must be above demon stuff"? When it was shown in series that the disaster ratings are extremely flawed and unrelieble?
> 
> Prove that Bakuzan or Suiryu scale to Marugori via actual scaling and feats, and then you're golden. Otherwise, Beffcake steps on him.



This argument was already had in the tier list thread (iirc it was between you and OneSimpleAnime). You lost. I'm relying on the disaster ratings whether you like it or not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toratorn (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu has shown to be excellent at judging a character's strength. And he is a dragon level mysterious being himself so he would know another dragon level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Exellent at judging trength" as in stating that Choze shows promise and that Bakuzan is probably a dragon? Yeah, sure.

No one had shown DC on Marugori's level. Genos' best calced feat was at 4 megatons IIRC when Marugori's was at 20 or so. Choze's cloud parting was inferior to both, and Suiryu was hurt by that thing. So yeah, he gets splattered.


> This argument was already had in the tier list thread (iirc it was between you and OneSimpleAnime). You lost. I'm relying on the disaster ratings whether you like it or not.


Um... How 'bout no? Maybe you'll go reread the thread and see for yourself that he literally proved nothing and stopped replying? Some nifty standarts for losing an argument here.


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu has shown to be excellent at judging a character's strength. And he is a dragon level mysterious being himself so he would know another dragon level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Sorry but saying Gouketsu is an excellent judge of strength isn't enough. The Hero Association are the ones who created disaster levels and by their own admission it is extremely flawed. Dragon-level is said to be a threat to multiple cities. Beefcake could destroy a huge portion of a city with a casual strike someting no Demon-level so far showed.

2. Bakuzan was left in awe by Gouketsu who simply destroyed a chunk of the arena with the air pressure his punch generated. Beefcake destroyed something hundreds of times larger by just swiping his hand. If Bakuzan was impressed by Gouketsu do you really think Beefcake wouldn't be able to hurt his toe just like a heavily injured Suiryu managed to do? Bakuzan is unlikely to be Dragon Level. He showed nothing indicating he is that strong and he got hurt by a half-dead Suiryu. Is Gouketsu's word more credible than actual feats?


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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Juub said:


> 1. Sorry but saying Gouketsu is an excellent judge of strength isn't enough. The Hero Association are the ones who created disaster levels and by their own admission it is extremely flawed.



Gouketsu is himself a dragon level mysterious being. How would he be unable to identify if someone is at least on the same tier of strength as himself? That makes no sense. 



Juub said:


> 2. Bakuzan was left in awe by Gouketsu who simply destroyed a chunk of the arena with the air pressure his punch generated. Beefcake destroyed something hundreds of times larger by just swiping his hand. If Bakuzan was impressed by Gouketsu do you really think Beefcake wouldn't be able to hurt his toe just like a heavily injured Suiryu managed to do? Bakuzan is unlikely to be Dragon Level. He showed nothing indicating he is that strong and he got hurt by a half-dead Suiryu. Is Gouketsu's word more credible than actual feats?



Bakuzan was impressed by Gouketsu's overwhelming pressure. Not the destruction of the part of the arena.

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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> "Exellent at judging trength" as in stating that Choze shows promise and that Bakuzan is probably a dragon? Yeah, sure.



Choze did show promise by mysterious being standards. He was high demon level like the deep sea king. 



Toratorn said:


> No one had shown DC on Marugori's level. Genos' best calced feat was at 4 megatons IIRC when Marugori's was at 20 or so. Choze's cloud parting was inferior to both, and Suiryu was hurt by that thing. So yeah, he gets splattered.



So are we ignoring powerscaling completely now because you don't like it? Tell me, is there any reason to assume Genos or Beefcake would be able to break Monster Bakuzan's toe like Suiryu did? Suiryu isn't dragon level, but he's at the top of demon level and with good reason. 



Toratorn said:


> Um... How 'bout no? Maybe you'll go reread the thread and see for yourself that he literally proved nothing and stopped replying? Some nifty standarts for losing an argument here.



That argument is only going to lead to endless circles. I believe the disaster level rankings are accurate enough. You believe they aren't. I'm not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. If you want to debate another aspect of this fight i'm game but this is not going to lead anywhere.


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu is himself a dragon level mysterious being. How would he be unable to identify if someone is at least on the same tier of strength as himself? That makes no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Bakuzan was impressed by Gouketsu's overwhelming pressure. Not the destruction of the part of the arena.


How would he be able to? I don't care what Gouketsu said when Bakuzan is shown being injured by Suiryu. He isn't on Gouketsu's tier either who was stopping him with his fingers.

Also yeah it was the air pressure. Beefcake did the same thing on a far more massive scale.

It's also been established disaster levels are unreliable by the Hero HQ themselves and you'll choose to believe Gouketsu? Really?


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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Juub said:


> How would he be able to? I don't care what Gouketsu said when Bakuzan is shown being injured by Suiryu. He isn't on Gouketsu's tier either who was stopping him with his fingers.



Gouketsu felt Bakuzan's power firsthand. He's a martial artist who has fought many opponents both as a monster and back when he was a human. So he knows his own strength and can compare others strength relative to his own. If he says someone is dragon level like him it has weight. Suiryu came out of the monster Choze fight with only superficial damage so there's still clearly room for him to be above high demon level and at the top of demon level. 



Juub said:


> It's also been established disaster levels are unreliable by the Hero HQ themselves and you'll choose to believe Gouketsu? Really?



It's just you're opinion that they're unreliable. I do not see it that way.


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## Toratorn (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu is himself a dragon level mysterious being. How would he be unable to identify if someone is at least on the same tier of strength as himself? That makes no sense.


Bakuzan can't be on Gouketsu's tier by definition simply because Gouketsu owned him like a child.


xenos5 said:


> Choze did show promise by mysterious being standards. He was high demon level like the deep sea king.


Beefcake is a high level demon, Awakened Cocroach is a high level demon, Sea King is _arguably _a high demon. Choze is not. Choze's best feat is cloud parting, which is, once again, inferior to what Genos had shown arcs ago, and keeping up with Suiryu, whose physical feats up to that point were comparable only to a fucking Tanktop Master. Choze being even at mid-demon level is arguable.


> So are we ignoring powerscaling completely now because you don't like it? Tell me, is there any reason to assume Genos or Beefcake would be able to break Monster Bakuzan's toe like Suiryu did? Suiryu isn't dragon level, but he's at the top of demon level and with good reason.


Nobody is ignoring powercaling. I'm arguing about you imagening that powerscaling out of nowhere based on flimsy statements and rankings that even in-universe were shown to be unrelieble as hell.


> That argument is only going to lead to endless circles. I believe the disaster level rankings are accurate enough. You believe they aren't. I'm not going to convince you and you aren't going to convince me. If you want to debate another aspect of this fight i'm game but this is not going to lead anywhere.


If you belive them to be accurate enough, then explain shit like Crablante,Withered Sprout and Kombu Infinity being on the same disaster level, Marugori and that one-panel fodder Smile Man's bros wrecked to be on the same disaster level, Sea King, Awakened Cocroach and Marugori all being below Vaccine Man and Melzalgard and their pathetic showings...


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu felt Bakuzan's power firsthand. He's a martial artist who has fought many opponents both as a monster and back when he was a human. So he knows his own strength and can compare others strength relative to his own. If he says someone is dragon level like him it has weight. Suiryu came out of the monster Choze fight with only superficial damage so there's still clearly room for him to be above high demon level and at the top of demon level.
> 
> 
> 
> It's just you're opinion that they're unreliable. I do not see it that way.


What? The Hero HQ literally admitted they were practically useless. I mean yeah in a vaccum Dragon>Demon but when Bakuzan isn't even a confirmed Dragon and gets hurt by injured Suiryu and has far less impressive feats than Beefcake putting him above Beefcake is really pushing it with the only evidence being Gouketsu's word. Even assuming Beefcake is weaker than Bakuzan that doesn't make him weaker than Suiryu. We're extrapolating a lot over very little data.

To top it all off Smile Man and his bros owned a Demon-level and Kombu Infinity Straight up dismantled two A-class heroes with no effort and he is Tiger-level. Disaster levels aren't the be-all end-all of power levels.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Warlordgab (May 15, 2017)

I guess some people here forget Gouketsu _is not_ the "Hero HQ", and him being a mysterious being specialized in physical combat allows him to gauge strength and capabilities with a lot more accuracy than the "Hero HQ"

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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> I guess some people here forget Gouketsu _is not_ the "Hero HQ", and him being a mysterious being specialized in physical combat allows him to gauge strength and capabilities with a lot more accuracy than the "Hero HQ"


And he still uses their ratings? Yeah makes a lot of sense.


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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Juub said:


> What? The Hero HQ literally admitted they were practically useless. I mean yeah in a vaccum Dragon>Demon but when Bakuzan isn't even a confirmed Dragon and gets hurt by injured Suiryu and has far less impressive feats than Beefcake putting him above Beefcake is really pushing it with the only evidence being Gouketsu's word. *Even assuming Beefcake is weaker than Bakuzan that doesn't make him weaker than Suiryu.* We're extrapolating a lot over very little data.



They'd have to be around the same level at the very least.



Juub said:


> To top it all off Smile Man and his bros owned a Demon-level and Kombu Infinity Straight up dismantled two A-class heroes with no effort and he is Tiger-level. Disaster levels aren't the be-all end-all of power levels.



A class is a wide range. And hero rankings unlike disaster level rankings are based more on popularity and accomplishments than actual strength. So two A class heroes being unable to deal with a high level tiger level mysterious being and Smile Man and Co being able to deal with a demon level threat is not really contradictory. Heck Iai is said to be nearing S class level in strength despite being A class level (and Sweet Mask is definitely S class level despite being in A class).


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## Warlordgab (May 15, 2017)

Juub said:


> And he still uses their ratings? Yeah makes a lot of sense.



He uses them because of what they represent not because of "Hero HQ" evaluations. I ask now: what does each ranking represent?


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## xenos5 (May 15, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Bakuzan can't be on Gouketsu's tier by definition simply because Gouketsu owned him like a child.
> 
> Beefcake is a high level demon, Awakened Cocroach is a high level demon, Sea King is _arguably _a high demon. Choze is not. Choze's best feat is cloud parting, which is, once again, inferior to what Genos had shown arcs ago, and keeping up with Suiryu, whose physical feats up to that point were comparable only to a fucking Tanktop Master. Choze being even at mid-demon level is arguable.
> 
> ...



Withered sprout purposefully hid his true power. You can't say the same for mysterious beings like Beefcake who held nothing back. Most mysterious beings go all out and try to cause as much destruction as possible. Unless you have some proof Marugori was secretly holding back there's no reason to believe his disaster level ranking is wrong.

Monster Choze showed speed far surpassing what Awakened Cockroach showcased here 

That is far more impressive than this 

And Suiryu showed he can defeat mid level demon threats with no effort when he fodderized one of the three crows with an unnamed attack. Monster Choze has to be above mid level demon and considering his performance against Suiryu while he only dealt superficial damage high level demon makes sense for him.

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## Toratorn (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Withered sprout purposefully hid his true power. You can't say the same for mysterious beings like Beefcake who held nothing back. Most mysterious beings go all out and try to cause as much destruction as possible. Unless you have some proof Marugori was secretly holding back there's no reason to believe his disaster level ranking is wrong.


Yeah, and HA didn't up his level even after hearing Smile Man's report. Which, once again, proves their ratings aren't worth shit.

Also, since when are the in-universe ratings that are not even indicators of DC but of collateral damage are more indicative of power than actual scaling or feats (or lack thereof)? This makes even less sense that DB power levels.



> Monster Choze showed speed far surpassing what Awakened Cockroach showcased here
> 
> That is far more impressive than this


So you are literally using visual effects as your proof... Blur lines and afterimages anyone? Completely disregarding the fact that GEnos, who Cocroach was blitzing, has MHS feat based on him outrunning his own beam, while Suiryu and Choze have zero feats that can be quantified. Even fucking Mosquito Girl was able to dodge and outspeed the damn beam. And yeah, what does speed even have to do with destructive potential or durability? Why are you even bringing this up?



> And Suiryu showed he can defeat mid level demon threats with no effort when he fodderized one of the three crows with an unnamed attack. Monster Choze has to be above mid level demon and considering his performance against Suiryu while he only dealt superficial damage high level demon makes sense for him.


Yeah, the same "mid-tier demons" who were one-shot by Max and Sneck each. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure. The crows were demon level collectively, and the fact that they were wrecked by A-Classes only confirms that they weren't as good as you think.

Superficial damage? That's a thing now? Choze hurt him, made him bleed, and Suiryu himself admitted the fight was "a close one".

And you know what's also funny? Never was Choze even named a demon, or shown anything particularly impressive even compared to, say, Sea King, or Genos. Your entire argument rests on baseless speculation and scaling off characters that don't even get the scaling to each other. Besides, what you said is basically "Choze is high demon because he fought Suiryu, who one shot a crow, and only dealt superficial damage". Which makes him way below Suiryu, who was only good enough to one-shot a tiger class crow (which even managed to hurt him, dragon level Suiryu my ass), and definitely places him in mid demon class, if not lower. Congrats, you played yourself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> He uses them because of what they represent not because of "Hero HQ" evaluations. I ask now: what does each ranking represent?


Problem is the system is flawed. Gouketsu is using a flawed system so he isn't any more reliable.

Also lol why would he be more reliable anyway? We've seen disaster levels being calculated by seismologists and the like. They use scientific data and you think a random
monster "built for combat" is somehow more reliable?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Withered sprout purposefully hid his true power. You can't say the same for mysterious beings like Beefcake who held nothing back. Most mysterious beings go all out and try to cause as much destruction as possible. Unless you have some proof Marugori was secretly holding back there's no reason to believe his disaster level ranking is wrong.
> 
> Monster Choze showed speed far surpassing what Awakened Cockroach showcased here
> 
> ...


The three crows were demon level. Not individually lol.

Also wtf lol? You can't use art as evidence. This doesn't indicate Choze was faster than Awakaned Cockroach.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 15, 2017)

Ah yes, this "flawed system" that has 1 fucking blemish on it over some bullshit chapter. Its literally the only time its brought up and it has PIS in it.

The disaster rating scale is not wrong or flawed and is thought out well enough that even feats in the series line up with it. Demon class being a threat to 1 city and they have city level feats. Dragon class are threats to multiple cities and have higher end city level to island level feats.
Withered Sprout was updated to dragon level after, and let me repeat this to make it very clear, _*he purposefully hid his own strength*_. Like, unless they get a clear reading, of course the system wont mean shit, just like scouters in DBZ. Until something shows its true power it cant be properly rated, unless we get the rating from the narrator which we do most of the time.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Regicide (May 15, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> No one had shown DC on Marugori's level. Genos' best calced feat was at 4 megatons IIRC when Marugori's was at 20 or so. Choze's cloud parting was inferior to both, and Suiryu was hurt by that thing. So yeah, he gets splattered.


Gee, it's almost as if fiction doesn't deliberately present itself to appease our super autistic versus debating hobby.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Friendly 1


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## Sablés (May 15, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Gee, it's almost as if fiction doesn't deliberately present itself to appease our super autistic versus debating hobby.


Shut up and stop being right

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## Sablés (May 15, 2017)

And yeah, calc shit is mainly for debating outside context verses.

No fucking clue why anyone would ever try to apply them in-verse.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toratorn (May 15, 2017)

Sablés said:


> And yeah, calc shit is mainly for debating outside context verses.
> 
> No fucking clue why anyone would ever try to apply them in-verse.


Why shouldn't it work for characters who didn't even meet in-universe and thus cannot be compared in any other way (specifically, Genos, Marugori and Choze)?


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> He uses them because of what they represent not because of "Hero HQ" evaluations. I ask now: what does each ranking represent?


They're supposed to represent the immediate threat level but lots of things get taken into account.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Ah yes, this "flawed system" that has 1 fucking blemish on it over some bullshit chapter. Its literally the only time its brought up and it has PIS in it.
> 
> The disaster rating scale is not wrong or flawed and is thought out well enough that even feats in the series line up with it. Demon class being a threat to 1 city and they have city level feats. Dragon class are threats to multiple cities and have higher end city level to island level feats.
> Withered Sprout was updated to dragon level after, and let me repeat this to make it very clear, _*he purposefully hid his own strength*_. Like, unless they get a clear reading, of course the system wont mean shit, just like scouters in DBZ. Until something shows its true power it cant be properly rated, unless we get the rating from the narrator which we do most of the time.


So we're just gonna ignore an entire chapter that exposes the flaws of the disaster-rating system just cause?

"The Hero HQ admits that the disaster classification level is lacking"

"All in all the statistical data we've been amassing is quickly becoming worthless"



One fucking blemish really? Kombu Infinity was rated Tiger which according to the Hero HQ should be handled by an A-class Hero. Two mid-tier A class got manhandled by him. At the scene of the fight, other A-class heroes were shocked by its power and said they wouldn't like to face with that. Yet it was just rated as a Tiger-level.

Sea King was rated as Demon-level and easily disposed of Puri-Puri Prisoner. They were both pure brawlers yet an S-class hero couldn't do a thing against him and that was before he even transformed.

The Surly brothers beat up a Demon-level monster without breaking a sweat.

That system is flawed.

Here is where I completely disagree with you guys:

You're scaling Suiryu off Bakuzan. Suiryu merely broke his toe and you guys assume Bakuzan is Dragon-level based on the word of Gouketsu who uses the rating of a system that is admittedly flawed. Not only that but there's absolutely no confirmation Bakuzan is Dragon-level either.

You saw how quickly Bakuzan was overwhelmed by Gokuetsu and shocked by his display of power. This is what Gouketsu did with the air pressure generated by his punch:



This is what Beefcake did:



In one swipe he killed thousands of people. If Bakuzan was impressed by Gouketsu you guys really think he wouldn't be impressed by what Beefcake did? Beefcake did 100x the amount of damage. I'm not saying Beefcake is stronger than Gouketsu who just threw a casual punch but putting him below Bakuzan just because Gouketsu said he might be a Dragon-level monster is weak as hell. Bakuzan is practically featless and got hurt by a critically injured Suiryu who high-diff what was probably a Demon-level monster in Choze. The evidence pointing that Bakuzan is below Beefcake far outweighs the unconfirmed claims of Gouketsu.

Feats and evidence>Gouketsu's word(who uses a flawed system anyway).

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Regicide (May 15, 2017)

You realize that disingenuous designations (often made as a result of lacking information, even) have nothing to do with the way the hierarchy itself is established, yes?

Unless you're, I don't know, also claiming that Gouketsu is incapable of assessing someone as one of his peers.

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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

Regicide said:


> You realize that disingenuous designations (often made as a result of lacking information, even) have nothing to do with the way the hierarchy itself is established, yes?
> 
> *Unless you're, I don't know, also claiming that Gouketsu is incapable of assessing someone as one of his peers.*


And why would I assume he can properly assess the power of a Dragon level when the scale he uses is already flawed? It's been said disaster-level take many things into consideration such as aggression, difficulty of extermination, destructive capacity etc. Hell Marugori may have more destructive capacity than Bakuzan but might be far less aggressive which might make him a lesser threat. The disaster-level isn't just about power level.

I mean never mind the mountain of evidence suggesting that Bakuzan isn't that strong. Let's just take Gouketsu's word for it. Am I claiming Gouketsu cannot be right? Nope, but this is the OBD. Evidence always takes precedence over statements and so far all we have from Bakuzan is him getting hurt by a critically injured Suiryu and getting astonished by Gouketsu blowing off a chunk of a stadium. Beefcake so far steps on Suiryu and until Suiryu gets better feats, he'll remain below him.

Bakuzan is Dragon-level.
Why?
Cause Gouketsu said so.
But he got hurt by Suiryu who was struggling against what appeared to be a Demon-level monster.
Suiryu gets bumped to Dragon-level.
But he was left speechless by a feat a Demon-level could easily accomplish.
Gouketsu said he was Dragon-level.

Yeah makes no sense at all.


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## Regicide (May 16, 2017)

The issue is that the supposed problems you're addressing with the ranking system have nothing to do with whether or not Gouketsu can personally evaluate someone. This is all an irrelevant tangent.

Like I said, why in the world would the hero association's fuck ups have any impact whatsoever in this context?

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## shade0180 (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It's just you're opinion that they're unreliable. I do not see it that way.



We have been over this, there's a whole fucking chapter dedicated on telling us that the disaster level is bullshit.

 I'm pretty sure I was the first one who opened it and you were the first one to respond and the author One just slapped in your face a full chapter of it dedicated to how flawed the system later on about that the very same week.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Drake3513 (May 16, 2017)

in the the recent special chapter it was said that a high ranking doesnt mean high battle power of a monster so just because a monster is dragon doesnt mean its stronger than a demon level monster. suiryu doesnt have any feat on par with beefcake and neither does bakuzen so i say beefcake wins.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## shade0180 (May 16, 2017)

Also this is the same shit with what MB was spouting about Toriko but in reverse.

Considering Toriko corrected it from anything can be the matter for capture level.

To the capture level is no different from power level.

 It is a reverse because it started with Disaster level is a level of damage they can do, and was corrected in one of the chapter and the special to disaster level could be anything ranging from how scary looking the monster to how much damage they can do.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

Regicide said:


> The issue is that the supposed problems you're addressing with the ranking system have nothing to do with whether or not Gouketsu can personally evaluate someone. This is all an irrelevant tangent.
> 
> Like I said, why in the world would the hero association's fuck ups have any impact whatsoever in this context?


Because the disaster level doesn't only take into consideration the strength of a monster. It's a system that is lacking and takes other variables in account. If the system itself isn't any good to begin with, what makes you think Gouketsu using it would make it any better? As I said earlier, there are multiple reasons Beefcake was merely considered a Demon-level threat. It doesn't mean he was necessarily weaker than a Dragon-level threat. It could have been because his brother who was a weakling was controlling him. It could have been because he was possible to reason with or anything else. Disaster-levels aren't a measure of power level as shown when the Surly brothers defeated a Demon-level with no problem but Golden Ball and Spring Mustache got beaten within an inch of their lives by a Tiger-level.

Furthermore Gouketsu said. "Dragon-level like me" and Bakuzan isn't even on the same tier. Bakuzan's feats are also laughable for a Dragon-level monster if you think being Dragon-level automatically places him above Beefcake strength wise.


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## Sablés (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> what makes you think Gouketsu using it would make it any better?


only strength is quite literally all Gouketsu cares about

so that metric is what he's using to determine Bakuzan as dragon. Whatever qualifications the HA set doesn't matter, Gouketsu should be properly capable of evaluating the strength of his (much) weaker peer.

not really a hard prospect.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Sablés (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> "Dragon-level like me" and Bakuzan isn't even on the same tier


And what logic is this?

From what I hear, Boros is dragon-level. There's obviously a wide-ass spectrum of strength involved so it says nothing to discredit Bakuzan.


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> only strength is quite literally all Gouketsu cares about
> 
> so that metric is what he's using to determine Bakuzan as dragon. Whatever qualifications the HA set doesn't matter, Gouketsu should be properly capable of evaluating the strength of his (much) weaker peer.
> 
> not really a hard prospect.


The problem with this logic is that Gouketsu bases the strength of a Dragon-level monster off the Hero Association. Otherwise why would he bother using "Dragon-level anyway"? There is no set power level for a Dragon-level because as said before many variables are taken into account. That also doesn't mean Beefcake is necesarily below Bakuzan when counting strength alone. Beefcake might have the raw power of a Dragon-level but other factors may prevent him from reaching Dragon-level according to the Hero Association. There's no telling what Gouketsu would consider him to be if he only took into account his power while disregarding everything else.

Boros is also "Dragon+". Not just Dragon.


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## Sablés (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> Otherwise why would he bother using "Dragon-level anyway"?


Because the rankings are the most common determinant of how dangerous a monster is. When someone sees dragon-level, its associated primarily (not wholly) with power.

Why anything other than power is utterly irrelevant in this case?



> strength is quite literally all Gouketsu cares about
> 
> so that metric is what he's using to determine Bakuzan as dragon.



In other words, you're ignoring context.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Because the rankings are the most common determinant of how dangerous a monster is. When someone sees dragon-level, its associated primarily (not wholly) with power.
> 
> Why anything other than power is utterly irrelevant in this case?


As I said before, we don't know the minimum power requirement for a Dragon-level. The rankings are so all over the place they even overlap with Kombu Infinity being stronger than a Demon-level while merely being ranked as a Tiger-level himself. A monster ranked Dragon-level doesn't automatically mean it is stronger than a monster ranked as a Demon-level.




> In other words, you're ignoring context.


Not really. Bakuzan might reach the minimum standards for Gouketsu to think he is Dragon-level but that doesn't mean he is automatically stronger than every Demon-level seen thus far. Gouketsu uses the Hero Association rankings which don't even have a set power-level for every rank. Even assuming Gouketsu disregards all other variables his basis doesn't.

Let me give you an example.

Beefcake(Demon):
Power: 10(8 Minimum requirement for Dragon)
Speed: 6
Aggression: 6
Durability: 7
Average: 7.25/10(minimum average for Dragon is 8/10)

Bakuzan(Dragon):
Power: 8(Minimum requirement for Dragon)
Speed: 8
Aggression: 10
Durability: 7
Average: 8.25/10(minimum average for Dragon is 8/10)

That would be according to the Hero HQ. Now if Gouketsu were to just use power and ignore the rest, then Beefcake would be considered a Dragon-level threat according to his own scale but the Hero HQ would still consider him a Demon-level.

That's why the rankings don't mean shit. In a vacuum with no factual data sure a Dragon should always be considered above a Demon in terms of power but when we see Beefcake doing something that easily outdoes what Gouketsu did that impressed Bakuzan(that made him stop fighting), we shouldn't just place Bakuzan above Beefcake. Add to that the fact that Suiryu injured him while being critically wounded, there is no reason to place Bakuzan above Beefcake other than Gouketsu's word which doesn't even mean he is necessarily stronger.


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> As I said before, we don't know the minimum power requirement for a Dragon-level. The rankings are so all over the place they even overlap with Kombu Infinity being stronger than a Demon-level while merely being ranked as a Tiger-level himself. A monster ranked Dragon-level doesn't automatically mean it is stronger than a monster ranked as a Demon-level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have no proof the rankings work by averages to begin with. You're working off an unproven possibility that favors your argument when there's no reason to assume it works that way. If a mysterious being is labeled as being demon level the base assumption should be that they have strength in the ballpark of other demon level mysterious beings (city level) and a dragon level mysterious being should have strength somewhere around other dragon level beings (city level+/ being capable of destroying multiple cities at once).

That is how they're shown to work in the series. 

So Bakuzan who would only care about the strength of his opponent judging Monster Bakuzan as Dragon level holds more than enough weight. You don't have any proof that the hero association used some average system and ignored Beefcake having dragon level strength instead of just judging him as demon level because he had demon level strength. Without proof we have no reason to take your possibility as the base assumption or the truth.

Reactions: Like 1


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## 1337RedGlitchFox (May 16, 2017)

the only problem I can see with any of this is the point of the class system.

I'm pretty sure Gouketsu shouldnt be discredited for the HA's failings here.

The system goes like "This class does this much damage" right?
God threatens humanity or some things and down the tiers we go.

The HA ranks a monster that appears to see what rank it falls under.
The HA can be wrong, because its hard to gauge power for them. Cant fault them for that.

Gouketsu however? He's gauging his own peers strengths using the hero association system.
Its not like he's the hero association going "This guy here might be dragon class"
Hes a monster at the upperish tiers going "This guy should be around this level" and using the hero association rankings of monsters for lack of a better comparison.

The Hero associations system of "How much of a threat = what rank" should still be intact. The only thing that discredits them is how they'd gauge a monster, not their classifcation system.

Something that Gouketsu shouldn't have an issue with + shouldnt be held accountable to any of the HA's inabilities to gauge, because he's using a classification system that seems to be pretty intact and how else will he gauge monsters when theres a perfectly fine system right there for you?

Reactions: Like 3


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## 1337RedGlitchFox (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> No.


Meant in the sense of "This is how much these guys can threaten us" 
Like i said. Humanity, cities" etc.

I have read your post and i agree that alot goes into the system.

Doesnt discredit Gouketsu imo, but it could mean that beefcake is a lot higher than he should be, the hero association just didnt see him as much of a problem.

Bakuzan should still be established Dragon.
Bottom most lowest tier, scraping the bottom of the barrel even, but a threat to whatever size of humanity dragons are a threat to.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

1337RedGlitchFox said:


> Meant in the sense of "This is how much these guys can threaten us"
> Like i said. Humanity, cities" etc.
> 
> I have read your post and i agree that alot goes into the system.
> ...


I can agree with that. Let's just assume Bakuzan is Dragon-level for argument's sake.

I still think Beefcake stomps(literally) Suiryu and Bakuzan.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## 1337RedGlitchFox (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> I can agree with that. Let's just assume Bakuzan is Dragon-level for argument's sake.
> 
> I still think Beefcake stomps Suiryu and Bakuzan.



Then everything else should be a smooth/incredibly dangerous sailing on "What has this guy done thatll matter to this guy".

Otherwise, i added my piece for the more competent side of this forum to care or not care about.


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Going by those criteria "*damage capabilities, aggressiveness, difficulty of extermination"* there'd be no possible way for there to be such a disparity between them that Beefcake would be rated at demon level with dragon level strength.


 It says "etc" meaning there are other factors as well. These three things aren't the only factors. Who said there was a huge disparity anyway? Beefcake is plenty strong to ravage an entire city in seconds. If he doesn't get Dragon-rating maybe it's because all things considered he isn't as dangerous as Bakuzan? Kid Buu was by far the most dangerous Majin Buu and he wasn't even the strongest.



> His damage capabilities and difficulty of extermination should be at the exact same rating since he uses physical attacks to cause destruction and if he couldn't take the force of his own attacks his own attacks he'd break his arms when punching.


Yes I know. I read Sable's post.



> Aggressiveness shouldn't be rated lowly either considering he destroyed a large swathe of a city.


That was a made-up example. Not what I actually think.

The point still stands. You cannot use Bakuzan's Dragon-rating to place him above Beefcake when he has far less impressive showings.


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> *It says "etc" meaning there are other factors as well. These three things aren't the only factors.* Who said there was a huge disparity anyway?Beefcake is plenty strong to ravage an entire city in seconds. If he doesn't get Dragon-rating maybe it's because all things considered he isn't as dangerous as Bakuzan? Kid Buu was by far the most dangerous Majin Buu and he wasn't even the strongest.
> 
> Yes I know. I read Sable's post.
> 
> ...



If we don't know all of the factors we can only judge by the factors we know of. We can't just assume a factor we don't know of messes up the average. 

Gouketsu has no reason to rate based on something not tangible like "dangerousness". He only really cares about strength.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

Talk about going circles. Once again, since when did the unlreliable statements become a better judging cretetia than feats and what was actually shown on-panel?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Warlordgab (May 16, 2017)

Vs. battles uses tiering systems. But they screw up stats very often, so a tiering system should be completely worthless even if a OBDer uses it while being able to properly gauge a character's standing in their verse and input coherent information; all because Vs. battles get stats wrong... does that reasoning make sense?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If we don't know all of the factors we can only judge by the factors we know of. We can't just assume a factor we don't know of messes up the average.
> 
> Gouketsu has no reason to rate based on something not tangible like "dangerousness". He only really cares about strength.


I already conceded. Let's assume Gouketsu is right and Bakuzan is Dragon-level. That still doesn't make him stronger than Beefcake.


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> Vs. battles uses tiering systems. But they screw up stats very often, so a tiering system should be completely worthless even if a OBDer uses it can properly gauge a character's standing in their verse and input coherent information; all because Vs. battles get stats wrong... does that reasoning makes sense?


No, since it didn't answer the question. So I guess Cell really is solar system buster now. Statements 'n shit, amiright?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> I already conceded. Let's assume Gouketsu is right and Bakuzan is Dragon-level. That still doesn't make him stronger than Beefcake.



You're still arguing that Beefcake was mistakenly labeled as demon level despite having dragon level strength. That's not conceding. 

You don't have proof the average is messed up to the degree that error could occur. The only three factors we know of (the ones you listed earlier) would be too high if Beefcake had demon level strength (since he'd also have demon level durability to match that strength). If Beefcake had dragon level strength he would be labeled a dragon level mysterious being. If he had demon level strength he'd be labeled a demon level mysterious being like he was. The loophole you're trying to catch on to does not work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Warlordgab (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> No, since it didn't answer the question. So I guess Cell really is solar system buster now. Statements 'n shit, amiright?



You cannot compare someone drunk with power to someone who acknowledged there are monsters above him. Cell believed himself unbeatable as soon as he got his power boost, his ego made him an unreliable narrator. While Gouketsu is not only capable of gauging characters below him, he also recognized there are characters far more powerful than him... Gouketsu's gauging of other's capabilities is far more reliable than Cell's view on his own power

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## OneSimpleAnime (May 16, 2017)

are you fucking kidding me with this "statements dont matter, feats lol" powerscaling exists you morons.

Bakuzan being impressed with Gouketsu's punch that "only" destroyed a small part of the arena doesn't mean shit. Suiryu was sweating from a punch by Saitama and it didnt destroy _anything._ apparently suiryu is building level now

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You're still arguing that Beefcake was mistakenly labeled as demon level despite having dragon level strength. That's not conceding.


This again. I laid it down for your clearly.

It's confirmed the only three factors we know of aren't the only ones.
It's also admitted by the Hero Association that the ratings are becoming useless.

I'm also not arguing he was "mistakenly labeled" as demon. I'm arguing just because a monster can destroy multiple cities doesn't mean said monster will get dragon rating which is supported by an entire chapter.



> You don't have proof the average is messed up to the degree that error could occur. The only three factors we know of (the ones you listed earlier) would be too high if Beefcake had demon level strength (since he'd also have demon level durability to match that strength).


I don't need proof. They literally admitted that multiple factors are taken into account. Do you know how the ratings work? No you don't so don't assume. Going by visual evidence Beefcake is strong enough to be a threat to multiple cities. He waved his hand and razed a town. Other things like intelligence, speed, stamina, capacity to be reasoned with and a myriad of other things might also be taken in account.



> If Beefcake had dragon level strength he would be labeled a dragon level mysterious being. If he had demon level strength he'd be labeled a demon level mysterious being like he was. The loophole you're trying to catch on to does not work.


You ignore an entire chapter that disproves what you just said. Macho Daikon was easily disposed of by the Surly Brothers and was rated Demon. Kombu Infinity smashed Golden Ball and Spring Mustache and was rated Tiger. The chapter plainly explains why the disaster level doesn't necessarily correlate with how strong a monster is. You're hell bent on saying disaster level=destructive capacity when it's been said it's not the case. You've got visual evidence of Beefcake smashing a town to pieces casually yet you're still arguing he is stronger than Bakuzan?

Look at Kombu Infinity. He easily beat up two A-class who are supposedly enough to handle a Tiger-level threat on their own. He beat them combined and didn't even try. By your logic he should get the Demon-level rating because he's strong and durable enough to do what a Demon-level can do.

For a guy who was using art style to suggest Suiryu was faster than Genos you sure like to ignore visual evidence when it's convenient.


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> You cannot compare someone drunk with power to someone who acknowledged there are monsters above him. Cell believed himself unbeatable as soon as he got his power boost, his ego made him an unreliable narrator. While Gouketsu is not only capable of gauging characters below him, he also recognized there are characters far more powerful than him... Gouketsu's gauging of other's capabilities is far more reliable than Cell's view on his own power


Know what's funny? Cell at least can sense ki and gauge power accordingly, while Gouketsu's mighty "gauging skills" consist entirely of saying that Choze is pretty good, saying that some fodder is "looking alright" and that Bakuzan "looks like a dragon level" before schooling him. He is literally spitballing, and you guys take this as a face value beacause apparently "he is a reliable narrator". Yeah, first prove that he can actually sense energy, power or something like that (you know, something similar to what Boros and Carnage Kabuto did, not just throwing assumptions around based on monsters' good looks).

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

Yeah lol I would argue Gouketsu's statement falls right along the line of Cell's solar system busting claim which we all know what we make of.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> This again. I laid it down for your clearly.
> 
> It's confirmed the only three factors we know of aren't the only ones.
> It's also admitted by the Hero Association that the ratings are becoming useless.
> ...



The feat Beefcake performs doesn't destroy multiple cities. You're arguing that should be above what a demon level mysterious being is capable of but that isn't the case. Demon level monsters have consistently been around genos's level or a bit higher and are capable of destroying a city in one shot. Beefcake didn't display anything above that. 



Juub said:


> I don't need proof. They literally admitted that multiple factors are taken into account. Do you know how the ratings work? No you don't so don't assume. Going by visual evidence Beefcake is strong enough to be a threat to multiple cities. He waved his hand and razed a town. Other things like intelligence, speed, stamina, capacity to be reasoned with and a myriad of other things *might* also be taken in account.



You are again relying on an unproven possibility. We can only go off of the factors we know of. 



Juub said:


> You ignore an entire chapter that disproves what you just said. Macho Daikon was easily disposed of by the Surly Brothers and was rated Demon. Kombu Infinity smashed Golden Ball and Spring Mustache and was rated Tiger. The chapter plainly explains why the disaster level doesn't necessarily correlate with how strong a monster is. You're hell bent on saying disaster level=destructive capacity when it's been said it's not the case. You've got visual evidence of Beefcake smashing a town to pieces casually yet you're still arguing he is stronger than Bakuzan?



The hero ranking system is different than the disaster ranking system in that it's all about popularity rather than power so there's nothing wrong with the smiley brothers being able to take out a demon class monster despite being b class. Hell Fubuki easily has A class level abilities but limits herelf to B class because she doesn't want to compete with Sweet Mask. Both Withered Sprout and Kombu Infinity didn't really showcase their abilities until they fought with heroes whereas Beefcake showcased his strength completely so they aren't comparable cases.



Juub said:


> For a guy who was using art style to suggest Suiryu was faster than Genos you sure like to ignore visual evidence when it's convenient.



I'm not ignoring the visual evidence. I'm taking powerscaling into account as well. There are plenty of characters who don't get enough screentime to show off the feats that would be expected of their level. But in the OBD we still judge them as above certain other characters due to factors like position, ranking, and hype (admirals, and yonkos in one piece).


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> are you fucking kidding me with this "statements dont matter, feats lol" powerscaling exists you morons.
> 
> Bakuzan being impressed with Gouketsu's punch that "only" destroyed a small part of the arena doesn't mean shit. Suiryu was sweating from a punch by Saitama and it didnt destroy _anything._ apparently suiryu is building level now


Nice job being salty.

Oh, and who do you want to scale Bakuzan off? Suiryu, who at the moment was beaten to the point he was about to be killed to tiger level crows that Sneck and Max could one-shot? Sure, go ahead.


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Know what's funny? Cell at least can sense ki and gauge power accordingly, while Gouketsu's mighty "gauging skills" consist entirely of saying that Choze is pretty good, saying that some fodder is "looking alright" and that Bakuzan "looks like a dragon level" before schooling him. He is literally spitballing, and you guys take this as a face value beacause apparently "he is a reliable narrator". Yeah, first prove that he can actually sense energy, power or something like that (you know, something similar to what Boros and Carnage Kabuto did, not just throwing assumptions around based on monsters' good looks).



Gouketsu blocked Monster Bakuzan's punches and felt his strength firsthand rather than just basing it off his looks. He judged Monster Bakuzan's strength relative to his own with reliable evidence in the form of feeling out his strength during the fight.


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu blocked Monster Bakuzan's punches and felt his strength firsthand rather than just basing it off his looks. He judged Monster Bakuzan's strength relative to his own with reliable evidence in the form of feeling out his strength during the fight.


Yeah, something that happened *after *the "dragon level" claim, and invalidated completely by Gouketsu making him look like a child with minimum effort.

So can I have solar system level Cell now? Please?


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Yeah, something that happened *after *the "dragon level" claim, and invalidated completely by Gouketsu making him look like a child with minimum effort.
> 
> So can I have solar system level Cell now? Please?



Gouketsu did not change his stance and say anything like "Maybe I was wrong about labeling you dragon level" after that fight. Unless he himself was shown to believe his own claim was invalidated after having seen Bakuzan's strength for himself there is no reason for the statement to be invalidated. There's a wide enough range in dragon level monsters for one to be very far above another. 

At this point it sounds like you're whining and saying all statement feats should be thrown out when you should KNOW by know that's not how we do things in the OBD. We judge things on a case by case basis. Statements are still a type of feats and can be just as valid as any other feats if they come from a reliable enough source who has a means of knowing their statement is correct. Gouketsu's honest assessment of a character's strength is not the same as Cell's prideful boasting.


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The feat Beefcake performs doesn't destroy multiple cities. You're arguing that should be above what a demon level mysterious being is capable of but that isn't the case. Demon level monsters have consistently been around genos's level or a bit higher and are capable of destroying a city in one shot. Beefcake didn't display anything above that.


I never argued Beefcake could destroy multiple cities in one shot. Dragon level is defined as a threat to multiple cities. It doesn't mean the monster can one shot multiple cities.

"A threat endangering multiple cities"

Vaccine Man didn't one shot the city. He was rampaging through it and could have destroyed it quickly enough to be a threat to the next one. So far no Mysterious Being has destroyed multiple cities in one attack. Hell no Mysterious Being has ever one-shot a city period. The giant meteor was rated as a Dragon-level threat and would have just destroyed Z-City. Only Boros showed enough power to wipe out multiple cities.

I'm arguing Beefcake could raze a city in seconds and be an immediate threat to multiple cities which makes him fall under the "a threat endangering multiple cities" definition.





> You are again relying on an unproven possibility. We can only go off of the factors we know of.


Huh no. It was flat out said there are more than the factors mentioned you can't just choose to only include the ones mentioned. Especially when it was said the ratings are flawed anyway.





> The hero ranking system is different than the disaster ranking system in that it's all about popularity rather than power so there's nothing wrong with the smiley brothers being able to take out a demon class monster despite being b class.


They're directly related to one another which is why the entire chapter is about the rating system and the hero classification being extremely flawed yet you're still arguing they're reliable.



> Hell Fubuki easily has A class level abilities but limits herelf to B class because she doesn't want to compete with Sweet Mask. Both Withered Sprout and Kombu Infinity didn't really showcase their abilities until they fought with heroes whereas Beefcake showcased his strength completely so they aren't comparable cases.


Which doesn't matter because Kombu Infinity isn't a hero. Kombu Infinity is a Tiger-level monster which according to the disaster system should be handled by a single A-class hero. Two couldn't do a thing against it. What does that tell you about that disaster system? That it doesn't work? Yeah exactly like they said.





> I'm not ignoring the visual evidence. I'm taking powerscaling into account as well. There are plenty of characters who don't get enough screentime to show off the feats that would be expected of their level. But in the OBD we still judge them as above certain other characters due to factors like position, ranking, and hype (admirals, and yonkos in one piece).


Powerscaling is fine when judging unknown quantities or confirmed facts. You cannot powerscale Bakuzan off Beefcake because it was already established destructive capacity isn't the only thing considered when assessing a threat level.


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Juub said:


> I never argued Beefcake could destroy multiple cities in one shot. Dragon level is defined as a threat to multiple cities. It doesn't mean the monster can one shot multiple cities.
> 
> "A threat endangering multiple cities"
> 
> ...



What point would there be in ranking mysterious beings if the hero association wasn't trying to place some mysterious beings as higher threats/priorities than other mysterious beings? The distinction between dragon level and demon level is clearly intended to differentiate the level of damage they can output and the threat they pose. Never has it been implied that a monster with a lower level of damage output could somehow be seen as a higher threat than a mysterious being higher on the rating system. 



Juub said:


> Huh no. It was flat out said there are more than the factors mentioned you can't just choose to only include the ones mentioned. Especially when it was said the ratings are flawed anyway.



If we don't know those factors we can't include them. They're unquantifiable. 



Juub said:


> They're directly related to one another which is why the entire chapter is about the rating system and the hero classification being extremely flawed yet you're still arguing they're reliable.



They serve their purpose well enough. The only flaw is when mysterious beings hide their strength but Beefcake clearly didn't do that. 



Juub said:


> Which doesn't matter because Kombu Infinity isn't a hero. Kombu Infinity is a Tiger-level monster which according to the disaster system should be handled by a single A-class hero. Two couldn't do a thing against it. What does that tell you about that disaster system? That it doesn't work? Yeah exactly like they said.



Kombu infinity just doesn't seem to have showcased his power like how withered sprout purposely hid his power. Beefcake held nothing back though. 



Juub said:


> Powerscaling is fine when judging unknown quantities or confirmed facts. You cannot powerscale Bakuzan off Beefcake because it was already established destructive capacity isn't the only thing considered when assessing a threat level.



It's the most important thing and is what has been used to quantify characters in verse so far so I see no reason to abandon it now. Would you claim Beefcake is stronger than any dragon class monster who hasn't gotten to show enough feats? Is he somehow better than Gouketsu and Elder Centipede or humans on their level like Garou and Metal Bat just because you think so? No. We judge Elder Centipede and Gouketsu to be above all demon class monsters as well as Garou and Metal Bat for proving to be on the level of Elder Centipede. You aren't going to get the entire forum to throw all that out because you don't like it.


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu did not change his stance and say anything like "Maybe I was wrong about labeling you dragon level" after that fight. Unless he himself was shown to believe his own claim was invalidated after having seen Bakuzan's strength for himself there is no reason for the statement to be invalidated. There's a wide enough range in dragon level monsters for one to be very far above another.
> 
> At this point it sounds like you're whining and saying all statement feats should be thrown out when you should KNOW by know that's not how we do things in the OBD. We judge things on a case by case basis. Statements are still a type of feats and can be just as valid as any other feats if they come from a reliable enough source who has a means of knowing their statement is correct. Gouketsu's honest assessment of a character's strength is not the same as Cell's prideful boasting.


That wasn't a claim. That was an assumption. Which was proven wrong by Gouketsu manhandling Bakuzan's ass and then saying smth about him being "somewhat strong" in a pretty dismissive way.

It just shows the hypocrisy and the wishful thinking. You simply want Bakuzan to be dragon-level strong and then Suiryu to be comparable just from twisting his finger (which was even shown to be completely fine afterwards, lol), despite feats and common sense saying otherwise. On paper, the example with Cell is somewhat similar: unrelieble narrator talking about one's power in hyperbolic way. Why was the solar system claim dismissed as BS? Because the feats before and after were implying he was full of shit AND because he was unreliable (even despite, you know, him being able to sense ki and being himself he was analysing). Why the Gouketsu's example is BS? Because Gouketsu is shit at gauging power and feats surrounding Bakuzan saying otherwise.

Oh, and even if he is a dragon level, then what? You begin to claim the good ol' "any dragon > any demon" crap. Which was deconstructed in-universe. So what do we have? Scaling Bakuzan off Suiryu (who was battered enough to be almost killed by fodder crows).


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## Warlordgab (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Know what's funny? Cell at least can sense ki and gauge power accordingly, while Gouketsu's mighty "gauging skills" consist entirely of saying that Choze is pretty good, saying that some fodder is "looking alright" and that Bakuzan "looks like a dragon level" before schooling him. He is literally spitballing, and you guys take this as a face value beacause apparently "he is a reliable narrator". Yeah, first prove that he can actually sense energy, power or something like that (you know, something similar to what Boros and Carnage Kabuto did, not just throwing assumptions around based on monsters' good looks).



Let us see how the story treated these guys' "claims"

Cell blinded by his own pride made a pretty bold boast. Then he got destroyed

Gouketsu knew neither Monster Choze or Suiryu were a match for him. The story and showings later proved Gouketsu right by having him effortlessly overwhelming Suiryu. He concluded Moster Bakuzan was no match for him, and the story backed him up once again. He confirmed there are baddies far more powerful than him, and again the story backs him up...

That's reason enough to conlude Gouketsu can gauge with a good level of accuracy other characters' standings


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> That wasn't a claim. That was an assumption. Which was proven wrong by Gouketsu manhandling Bakuzan's ass and then saying smth about him being "" in a pretty dismissive way.[/2



Gouketsu wasn't proven wrong. Monster Bakuzan can be low dragon level and be below Gouketsu. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. 



Toratorn said:


> It just shows the hypocrisy and the wishful thinking. You simply want Bakuzan to be dragon-level strong and then Suiryu to be comparable just from twisting his finger (), despite feats and common sense saying otherwise. On paper, the example with Cell is somewhat similar: unrelieble narrator talking about one's power in hyperbolic way. Why was the solar system claim dismissed as BS? Because the feats before and after were implying he was full of shit AND because he was unreliable (even despite, you know, him being able to sense ki and being himself he was analysing). Why the Gouketsu's example is BS? Because Gouketsu is shit at gauging power and feats surrounding Bakuzan saying otherwise.



Gouketsu is never proven wrong with his gauging power. You saying he's shit at gaging power is an example of the argument from belief fallacy. Suiryu did damage to a low dragon level mysterious being which has not been shown to be done by any demon level mysterious being in the series. So there's nothing wrong with placing him at the top of demon level. 




Toratorn said:


> Oh, and even if he is a dragon level, then what? You begin to claim the good ol' "any dragon > any demon" crap. Which was deconstructed in-universe. So what do we have? Scaling Bakuzan off Suiryu *(who was battered enough to be almost killed by fodder crows)*.



Low ends don't make high ends wrong. Suiryu fodderized a crow when he could deal with one of them straight on rather than being distracted by them fighting him all at once. And Suiryu dealt with Monster Choze who was clearly above the crows so it's clear as day Suiryu is not on the crows level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> Let us see how the story treated these guys' "claims"
> 
> Cell blinded by his own pride made a pretty bold boast. Then he got destroyed
> 
> ...


And again, he didn't know that, he just guessed and was right. No big deal guessing that you are stronger than some people. Big deal actually sensing the power and correctly gauging their strength. What we saw? The first thing. What you think was shown? The second thing. Now again, show me a proof of Gouketsu not dropping around vague claims and actually sensing their strength.
And yeah, him confirming Monster King beaing stronger may have something to do he almost killed him way back.

Besides, you yourself said that BAkuzan is no match for Gouketsu. So none of that dragon level/comparable to dragon bs.


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## Toratorn (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu wasn't proven wrong. Monster Bakuzan can be low dragon level and be below Gouketsu. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.


Oh yeah, low level dragon like Melzalgard, someone who was turned into swiss cheese by PPP of all people. Yeah, sure, Bakuzan being close to Sea King sounds like a fair assesement of his power.


xenos5 said:


> Gouketsu is never proven wrong with his gauging power. You saying he's shit at gaging power is an example of the argument from belief fallacy. Suiryu did damage to a low dragon level mysterious being which has not been shown to be done by any demon level mysterious being in the series. So there's nothing wrong with placing him at the top of demon level.


You are telling me of argument from belief, yet you dismissed every example of disaster levels being BS without providing any argument. A little bit hypocrtical, don't you think?

He was never proven wrong. Yeah, thinking that fodder monsters can kill Suiryu sounds like a perfect example of his great strength gauging powers.

Oh yeah, and about Suiryu doing damage. First, as I had shown above, the damage wasn't even that severe (his finger is fine several panels better). And now, time for another analogy. Rat bites your finger. You vince in pain. Is the rat comparable to you in DC or durability now? Exact same thing with Suiryu twisting Bakuzan's finger. 


xenos5 said:


> Low ends don't make high ends wrong. Suiryu fodderized a crow when he could deal with one of them straight on rather than being distracted by them fighting him all at once. And Suiryu dealt with Monster Choze who was clearly above the crows so it's clear as day Suiryu is not on the crows level.


Yeah, dealt with Choze when he was at his best. He himself said that his state was shit when being battered by crows. And one-shotting a crow isn't even impressive considering Max and Sneck did that too. Point is: Suiryu at his best is above crows and above Choze. Suiryu after being humilated by Gouketsu? Nowhere near that level.


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> What point would there be in ranking mysterious beings if the hero association wasn't trying to place some mysterious beings as higher threats/priorities than other mysterious beings? The distinction between dragon level and demon level is clearly intended to differentiate the level of damage they can output and the threat they pose.


No the distinction between Dragon and Demon is the threat level they pose which among other things includes destructive capacity, difficulty of extermination, aggression and other factors.



> Never has it been implied that a monster with a lower level of damage output could somehow be seen as a higher threat than a mysterious being higher on the rating system.


Except you mean when Kombu Infinity promptly defeated two A-class and Macho Kaidon was defeated by three other A-class easily? Then a bunch of A-class saw the scene and said they wouldn't like to fight whoever did that damage(Kombu Infinity).





> If we don't know those factors we can't include them. They're unquantifiable.


Doesn't work like that. You can't just ignore them because they destroy the entire basis of your argument which revolves around disaster level=power level which has been established to be false.





> They serve their purpose well enough. The only flaw is when mysterious beings hide their strength but Beefcake clearly didn't do that.


Yeah except it was said they're useless but let's just ignore that.




> Kombu infinity just doesn't seem to have showcased his power like how withered sprout purposely hid his power. Beefcake held nothing back though.


Kombu Infinity wasn't given a rating in the manga. He was given a rating in the encyclopedia which occurred after he destroyed these two and One still kept him at Tiger-level. What makes you think Beefcake held nothing back anyway? Dude just casually waved his hand to destroy a city.





> It's the most important thing and is what has been used to quantify characters in verse so far so I see no reason to abandon it now. Would you claim Beefcake is stronger than any dragon class monster who hasn't gotten to show enough feats?


 No but he is certainly stronger than Bakuzan who got his toe broken by heavily injured Suiryu who  had a close fight with what we agree is a Demon-level monster



> Is he somehow better than Gouketsu and Elder Centipede or humans on their level like Garou and Metal Bat just because you think so?


 No because Elder Centipede was every bit as impressive and shrugged off strike from Metal Bat who is confirmed to be able to beat Dragon-level monsters. Gouketsu casually destroyed a huge portion of the arena with just the pressure his punch generated. If those guys had feats as meager and unimpressive as Bakuzan, I'd drop them below Beefcake too.



> No. We judge Elder Centipede and Gouketsu to be above all demon class monsters as well as Garou and Metal Bat for proving to be on the level of Elder Centipede. You aren't going to get the entire forum to throw all that out because you don't like it.


No we judge Elder Centipede to be above all demon class monsters because he was ravaging the city and tanking blows from Metal Bat who had just one-shotted two Demon-level monsters. Gouketsu was effortlessly smacking around Suiryu who had decent destructive feats and laughing at attacks from Bakuzan. The problem with Bakuzan is that he wrote himself out of the league of the strength of Beefcake. You don't increase Suiryu's standing. You drop Bakuzan. Suiryu's upper limit has clearly been seen. You can't scale him to Dragon-level.


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## xenos5 (May 16, 2017)

This is getting tiring  . I have better things to do than to argue in circles with two people at once all day when it's clear i'm not going to change your minds at all and you aren't going to change my mine . I'm not conceding my position but if someone else wants to debate in my stead for a while i'd be fine with that.


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## shade0180 (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'm not conceding my position but if someone else wants to debate in my stead for a while i'd be fine with that.


The only reason you are tired of this is not because you can't change their mind it is because you are also going on a tangent yourself and you didn't want to admit it. So you are tossing the blame to them... Shit is you really have no leg to stand on anyway considering the only leg you got was demolish by the author which was the rating system.

 The monsters are using the rating system to identify themselves.

The rating system is flawed as said by the author. 

The only thing that should anyone has a leg on would be powerscaling and feat.

the guys you are trying to push up has none of it. They don't even really have any hype outside of that arena fight they have entered and we all know they were weaker than suiryu until they gain some magical power up and we have no clue how much strength it gave them.

Basically what you have is 

Them after becoming a monster >>> Suiryu >>> Them before becoming a monster

That's literally it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Juub (May 16, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> This is getting tiring  . I have better things to do than to argue in circles with two people at once all day when it's clear i'm not going to change your minds at all and you aren't going to change my mine . I'm not conceding my position but if someone else wants to debate in my stead for a while i'd be fine with that.


Of course it is because you're blatantly ignoring that disaster level=/=power level when it's been flat out said they don't necessarily correlate and that the system is becoming more and more useless.


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## Sablés (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Yeah, something that happened *after *the "dragon level" claim, and invalidated completely by Gouketsu making him look like a child with minimum effort.
> 
> So can I have solar system level Cell now? Please?


You people say the most backward ass shit, I swear.

Cell's statement is not accepted because he is bragging about destructive power that was completely unheard of at the time and had nothing but his own word to back it up.

How in God's name does this compare to Gouketsu assessing the strength of someone who is not only much weaker  than him but many monsters that have already been documented. Fuck about this is unreliable?

Your cherry-picking of feats may as well slate nigh everyone in the Dragonball android saga as  capping at island-level

Reactions: Like 2


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## shade0180 (May 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> ing of feats may as well slate nigh everyone in the Dragonball android saga as capping at island-level




Shit no.. We know where the androids where because they could be powerscaled to Frieza and that's also the reason why they are stuck at the same rating as him even if we know that they are probably hundreds of times stronger than him.

 What you guys need to do is to figure out where the heck Suiryu is in that ranking or wait for Goketsu to produce his own feat.


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## Regicide (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> That wasn't a claim. That was an assumption. Which was proven wrong by Gouketsu manhandling Bakuzan's ass


Bakuzan can't be a dragon because he was greatly inferior to Gouketsu, another dragon, when there's also large levels of variance within classes.

Sure, I'll buy it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Sablés (May 16, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Shit no.. We know where the androids where because they could be powerscaled to Frieza and that's also the reason that why they are stuck at the same rating as him even if we know that they are probably hundreds of times stronger than him.


And we know where Bakuzan stands because he's affirmed as dragon-level via a metric of strength (the HA's actual rankings is something i won't debate) 

The point is to show how disingenuous it is to use visual displays of DC to try and conflict with powerscaling.

Reactions: Like 2


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## shade0180 (May 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> And we know where Bakuzan stands because he's affirmed as dragon-level via a metric of strength



Okay then use that to prove it.

 I won't really enter that debate. I'm just pointing out that you guys can't just toss around the rating as a proof of it.



Sablés said:


> (the HA's actual rankings is something i won't debate)



Actually that's what I have been pointing out, you guys shouldn't just use the rating as proof of this shit because it is flawed and the author admitted to it.


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## Warlordgab (May 16, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> And again, he didn't know that, he just guessed and was right. No big deal guessing that you are stronger than some people. Big deal actually sensing the power and correctly gauging their strength. What we saw? The first thing. What you think was shown? The second thing. Now again, show me a proof of Gouketsu not dropping around vague claims and actually sensing their strength.
> And yeah, him confirming Monster King beaing stronger may have something to do he almost killed him way back.
> 
> Besides, you yourself said that BAkuzan is no match for Gouketsu. So none of that dragon level/comparable to dragon bs.



He wasn't guessing:

He got to witness the extent of both Suiryu and Choze capabilities. And when he did, what conclusion he drawed?

He could easily kill Suiryu but he had an assignment to fulfill: Turn strong humans into monsters. And again! The story backed him up

Later when he saw Monster Bakuzan, he concluded that while they were in the same tier Bakuzan was still no match for him; and confirmed there are still beings above both of them

All the conclusions he drawed were spot-on. So there's no logical base to claim his judgement of other's capabilities isn't reliable

Reactions: Like 1


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## shade0180 (May 16, 2017)

See now someone is doing it properly.

  But just going to point out that just prove Choze is pretty low on the ranking if he thinks the current suiryu is weak.



Warlordgab said:


> Later when he saw Monster Bakuzan, he concluded that while they were in the same tier Bakuzan was still no match for him; and confirmed there are still beings above both of them



it looks like... -> That's the line he used to evaluate Bakuzan

That tells me he isn't sure.

Just pointing out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Warlordgab (May 16, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> That tells me he isn't sure.
> 
> Just pointing out.



I have a couple of friends who read japanese, if you provide with the raw scan I might be able to ask them if his original dialogue implied any sort of uncertainty

EDIT: I found the raw scan, now I'm just waiting for a response


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## LoveLessNHK (May 16, 2017)

I feel like I just read the same things over and over again. Like, person a says this, person b retorts, person a repeats, person b repeats, at cetera, add in a couple other people.

My God this thread is just...hell.


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## shade0180 (May 17, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> My God this thread is just...hell.



That's what happens when poster gets over the line to push the character they like to certain level without definite proof that it should be at that level.


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## Sablés (May 17, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Okay then use that to prove it.
> 
> I won't really enter that debate. I'm just pointing out that you guys can't just toss around the rating as a proof of it.
> 
> ...



Literally what I've done since the start.

and no, the rankings may be flawed but Gouketsu is not using them according to the HA's specifications. I have no idea why this needs to repeated 5 different times.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sablés (May 17, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> it looks like... -> That's the line he used to evaluate Bakuzan


A bit of semantics.

That sentence is a common precedent following an observation and it doesn't necessarily denote uncertainty. Gouketsu believes Bakuzan is dragon-level (on a strength hierarchy, strictly  speaking) based on his deductions.

I literally cannot understand the mental gymnastics you guys (not you specifically but in general) are rolling with to somehow contest such a straightforward classification.

Reactions: Like 1


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## shade0180 (May 17, 2017)

Then let me ask a simple question how is Goketsu qualified to know about the rating when even the association itself who is known to made it is unsure on how to evaluate the rating.

 Seriously and don't tell me he isn't using the Association evaluation for the rating because he is a human before he became a monster.

There's no mental gymnastics here.

The rating is flawed . Goketsu is using the rating to guess where he and this monster should be place. Goketsu is not a part of the hero system he is one of the martial artist.

The detail of the rating is a guess work even for the hero association so why is the rating given by Goketsu would be more qualified than the Association when the association itself is not qualified to determine it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Warlordgab (May 17, 2017)

Sorry for taking too long but @Sablés nailed it...

The literal translation of Gouketsu's line is "I see he has the same Dragon calamity level as me". There's no "it seems" or "I think" in his dialogue. He was certain about what he stated

As for the question asked by @shade0180 It was already answered:



Regicide said:


> The issue is that the supposed problems you're addressing with the ranking system have nothing to do with whether or not Gouketsu can personally evaluate someone. This is all an irrelevant tangent.
> 
> Like I said, why in the world would the hero association's fuck ups have any impact whatsoever in this context?





1337RedGlitchFox said:


> the only problem I can see with any of this is the point of the class system.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Gouketsu shouldnt be discredited for the HA's failings here.
> 
> ...



This "ranking" is actually an in-universe tiering system. HA's main problem is not how they constructed this system but the flawed/incomplete information they input to gauge a monster's capabilities


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 17, 2017)

the system isnt flawed unless they dont have a good read on the monsters power. otherwise there are literally 0 issues and DC contributes to 95% of a monsters disaster rating

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Toratorn (May 17, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> DC contributes to 95% of a monsters disaster rating


Hm, then why don't I remember Sea King/Melzalgard/anyone from Monster Association destroying a city? Or anything bigger than a building? Oh, I know! Because HA doesn't judge monsters by their DC only, and it's not even the biggest factor. In fact, we see Monster Ratings even before most of the monsters even do anything, like in case with Gouketsu. HA is giving ratings out before monsters even do anything, correcting them when more information gets available. Like with Sea King, who was labelled a tiger at first and then got elevated to demon. They are using as much guesswork and visual cues as Gouketsu when he was _gauging _power of others.

Remember Eyesight? That gorgon-like demon monster? Yeah, the same demon monster who was hurt by a miniscule explosion that didn't even level a street? She didn't destroy anything, all she did was poisoning some people and flipping a car. So does that mean HA decided she can destroy city? Fuck no. They deemed her a threat to one because of her powerset and looks. Simple as that.

Oh, and another nail in the coffin of "disaster rating = DC" bullshit. If you remember, wolf and tiger levels were described as "monster that can be a threat" and "monster who can threaten a group of people", while demon, dragon and god are the same to city, several cities and civilization. So here's the thing: the disaster level show not how much a monster can destroy, but how many people it can kill. Mosquito Girl didn't even destroy a building, yet she was able to force a city to evacuate due to her mosquito swarms, which were not capable of destroying shit, but were sure as hell threatening to city worth of people. Melzalgard wasn't labelled a dragon because he was particularly strong, tough or fast (he sucked in all these categories, in fact) but because of his regen, which made him hard to put down even by S-Class heroes, which in turn made him potentially able to go on and slaughter people without even reacting to heroes. DC in hero ratings is not a main factor but supporting one. 

TL;DR: disaster levels are bullshit, stick to feats, Beefcake still stomps.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (May 17, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> the system isnt flawed unless they dont have a good read on the monsters power. otherwise there are literally 0 issues *and DC contributes to 95% of a monsters disaster rating*


You literally just made that up.

DC contributes to 50% of a monster's rating. See I can do that too.


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## Juub (May 17, 2017)

Sablés said:


> A bit of semantics.
> 
> That sentence is a common precedent following an observation and it doesn't necessarily denote uncertainty. Gouketsu believes Bakuzan is dragon-level (on a strength hierarchy, strictly  speaking) based on his deductions.
> 
> I literally cannot understand the mental gymnastics you guys (not you specifically but in general) are rolling with to somehow contest such a straightforward classification.


Sables(sorry about the "e"), the problem we have is that we don't even know the DC required to be classed as Dragon-level so even assuming Bakuzan is Dragon-level that still doesn't tell us how strong he is. Even if, as you pointed out, the only thing Gouketsu cares about is strength.

Is a super fast, mildly strong and aggressive monster higher or lower on the disaster scale than a slow, very strong and not very aggressive monster? If two monsters are almost featless and one is a Dragon and the other is a Demon, I'll always give the win to the Dragon. If it's a Demon-level like Beefcake who showed DC that puts most monsters to shame then I won't rank Bakuzan higher than him especially since what Bakuzan has shown so far has been fairly unimpressive. This is supported by the fact that DC=/=disaster rating.

I mean if we were comparing Beefcake to Elder Centipede then I'd say Elder Centipede stomps because his DC is every bit as impressive and he was shrugging off hits from Fighting Spirit Metal Bat. I'd even give the benefit of the doubt to Gouketsu against Beefcake but Bakuzan? Nope.

There are no mental gymnastics here. I'd simply rather use conclusive feats than a iffy rating system which should be used to support feats, not disregard them.

You know what, fuck it I'll make another thread discussing disaster ratings. Maybe we can reach a consensus. Hopefully. Probably not.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (May 17, 2017)

@Juub

If you're moving the hero association ranking system discussion into a separate thread do you think we could debate this thread with the initial premise I had in mind? Assuming Suiryu and Beefcake are around the same level would Suiryu be able to deal with Beefcake despite Beefcake's size and AOE with his own skill and speed?


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## Toratorn (May 17, 2017)

If we assume Suiryu and Beefcake are on the same tier of power and durability, then speed is what matters. No idea, however, if Suiryu's speed feats are more impressive that Beefcake's. I mean, Marugori is fucking enormous, yet he was able to punch pretty damn fast.

Starting distance may be a factor. If Suiryu is too far to reach Marugori, he gets annihilated by AoE. If he starts up close enough to close the distance, then Marugori gets wrecked.


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## Sablés (May 17, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Then let me ask a simple question how is Goketsu qualified to know


See this

right here, is the problem; you botched it on the first sentence.

Whether Gouketsu is qualified to understand how the Hero Association ranks *Does.Not.Matter.
*
In fact, it would be the opposite if anything. He doesn't care about their metrics.

Have you people never heard of the bastardization of a concept in your lives? The fact that Gouketsu is thinking only of power when ascertaining who fits into the ranks should telling you right out that he doesn't care for the legitimate definition. Its like you thinking whenever something nowadays is called a meme/^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".), its referred to by the original definition instead of the more playful/derogatory context it has been re purposed for.

If you didn't have such boners for "muh flawed tier lists" you would see its not fucking relevant here. Its one dude taking a commonly utilized classification and molding it to his needs.

Don't think I can repeat myself again. If you still don't get it, I might as well find a brick wall to bash my head against.


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## xenos5 (May 17, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> If we assume Suiryu and Beefcake are on the same tier of power and durability, then speed is what matters. No idea, however, if Suiryu's speed feats are more impressive that Beefcake's. I mean, Marugori is fucking enormous, yet he was able to punch pretty damn fast.



I'd say Suiryu should be faster from what he showed against Monster Choze. 



Toratorn said:


> Starting distance may be a factor. If Suiryu is too far to reach Marugori, he gets annihilated by AoE. If he starts up close enough to close the distance, then Marugori gets wrecked.



I looked back at the general OBD assumptions thread and since I didn't list the distance it's assumed to be 20 paces. That should be enough for Suiryu to close in quick enough. 

It'd be interesting to see how a punch clash would go between them  . With Suiryu's skill would he be able deflect/parry a punch even of that size? Or would they just neutralize the force of each other's punches (except the ground may crumble beneath Suiryu)?


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## Regicide (May 17, 2017)

You guys know that presuming two parties are comparable in speed, the giant one is going to look like a snail relative to the much tinier one, yes?


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## Toratorn (May 17, 2017)

Oh, and sorry for bringing this up again, but it seems like Marugori was supposed to be a dragon if Saitama didn't show up. So I guess that puts an end to the whole "dragon > demon" bull.


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## Juub (May 17, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Oh, and sorry for bringing this up again, but it seems like Marugori was supposed to be a dragon if Saitama didn't show up. So I guess that puts an end to the whole "dragon > demon" bull.


Well if that's true this entire debate can be put to rest no?


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 17, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Oh, and sorry for bringing this up again, but it seems like Marugori was supposed to be a dragon if Saitama didn't show up. So I guess that puts an end to the whole "dragon > demon" bull.


except dragon > demon is still true


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## Toratorn (May 18, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> except dragon > demon is still true


Repeating that to yourself doesn't make it true. You've yet to prove that dragons > demons without exceptions and that DC is the biggest factor in ratings, when the opposite was already proved. Either way, there's a separate thread for that.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 18, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Repeating that to yourself doesn't make it true. You've yet to prove that dragons > demons without exceptions and that DC is the biggest factor in ratings, when the opposite was already proved. Either way, there's a separate thread for that.


>threat level to people and cities
>DC not the most deciding factor when the HA is concerned about collateral and the range of a monsters destruction
>


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## Toratorn (May 18, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >threat level to people and cities
> >DC not the most deciding factor when the HA is concerned about collateral and the range of a monsters destruction
> >


Yeah, yeah, sure, because that explains how HA labels monsters as demons and tigers before they even do anything. You're in denial.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 18, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Yeah, yeah, sure, because that explains how HA labels monsters as demons and tigers before they even do anything. You're in denial.


when have they done this


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## Toratorn (May 18, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> when have they done this


Always? Remember the Fist Fight Djinn, who did nothing but punch Smile Man once yet got labelled demon? Or the whole Monster Association, who got their labels before engaging anyone? Or G4, who was labelled a demon just after his arrival? Or Subterranean King, who was said to be demon level in handbook despite his only accomplishment being getting stomped into asphalt?


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 18, 2017)

Because they cant guess a monsters power? They have info on monsters that have appeared before and we get a bunch of ratings from essentially a narrator.

Like jesus, how can the HA label a monster when no one from it is around? Its ONE trying to tell us how strong the monsters are


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## Toratorn (May 18, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Because they cant guess a monsters power? They have info on monsters that have appeared before and we get a bunch of ratings from essentially a narrator.
> 
> Like jesus, how can the HA label a monster when no one from it is around? Its ONE trying to tell us how strong the monsters are


HA's job is to protect from threats, so they label monsters as soon as they appear. So of course they have to guess to not waste time and not let people die because of their meddling. And most of these monsters didn't even appear before. Once monsters do something out of their rating, it gets changed - like it happened with Sea King. Like it would have happened with Marugori. So yeah, they are guessing and not always right, bringing the acciracy of the whole system in terms of DC in question further.


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## Regicide (May 18, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Repeating that to yourself doesn't make it true. You've yet to prove that dragons > demons without exceptions and that DC is the biggest factor in ratings, when the opposite was already proved. Either way, there's a separate thread for that.


What kind of mental gymnastics is this? Dragon class is superior to demon class by definition, the only point of contention is whether or not something is accurately labeled in the first place.

If X is 20, and Y is 30 but thought to be 5, that doesn't mean 5 is potentially greater than 20; it just means it's not fucking 5.


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## Regicide (May 18, 2017)

And I can already tell what kind of stupid points some schmuck is inevitably going to make, so let me clarify.

If you want to suggest 5 is actually 100 or that 20 is actually 2, you need a reason for the initial designations to be questioned first. Preferably reasons that don't involve begging the question.


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## Toratorn (May 18, 2017)

Regicide said:


> What kind of mental gymnastics is this? Dragon class is superior to demon class by definition, the only point of contention is whether or not something is accurately labeled in the first place.
> 
> If X is 20, and Y is 30 but thought to be 5, that doesn't mean 5 is potentially greater than 20; it just means it's not fucking 5.


Reading comprehension problems, I see?


> You've yet to prove that dragons > demons without exceptions





> dragons > demons without exceptions





> WITHOUT EXCEPTIONS


Yes, of course spherical dragon in vaccum is supposed to be more destructive than spherical demon in vaccum. Here's the thing tho: there are no spherical monsters on practice, and if you actually think that monster ratings are equivalent to elementary school math, then it's you who is performing damn mental gymnastics. And yes, we were said in-story that the rating system is flawed AND that it relies on many factors, not just destructive capabilities. Plus there's a fact that they were made to showcase the threat that monster presents to population on the first place. Your number analogy means jack because it's not applicable here.

Yes, dragon class monster is superior to demon. In how much danger he is to population. Not power he packs, not necessarily. If there was a squishy-ass monster that could cover the planet in lethal gase, he would be labeled God for danger he presents, not because he can bust a planet like you may think.

This way, ratings are not reliable in measuring raw power, because there are lots of outliers, both on the low and high ends. Some dragons (Vaccine Man, Melzalgard) are weaker than some demons (Sea King, Beefcake). Waiting for you to bring up another irrelevant analogy.


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## Juub (May 18, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> except dragon > demon is still true


More or less. Beefcake was still rated as Demon yet is  Dragon.


Toratorn said:


> Reading comprehension problems, I see?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Forget it. We have an entire chapter made for the sole purpose of discrediting the HA ratings and some people still swear by it. If it's written that the disaster levels are unreliable and some people still believe they are, what makes you think you'll change their mind? I simply left the thread. Been repeating the same shit on deaf ears ad nauseam.

The thread is about Suiryu va Marugori anyway and it's been confirmed Marugori would have been Dragon-level had Saitama not intervene. He crushes Suiryu like a fly.

Juub out.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 18, 2017)

L M A O at Vaccine Man and Melzalgald being weaker than any Demon


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## Sablés (May 18, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> You've yet to prove that dragons > demons without exceptions


Pretty sure it doesn't work this way, man.

Exceptions to the rule are just that, the exceptions. YOU need to prove that this particular case exists, not the other way around. Until you do, its much safer to follow the general premise.


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## Sablés (May 18, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Some dragons (Vaccine Man, *Melzalgard*) are weaker than some demons (Sea King, Beefcake).


Man, even i know this is fucking backwards.


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## Toratorn (May 18, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Man, even i know this is fucking backwards.


Not quite. His durability is shit (Iaian and PPP managed to slice/punch through him), as is his speed (maybe not tagging Bang and AS doesn't show that, but not tagging PPP and MB for most of the fight is kinda weak), and getting held in place by PPP doesn't speak a lot about his strength. His only valuable asset was regeneration, which allowed him to tangle with 4 S-Classes for so long.

As for the exeptions thing... There are way too many of these "exceptions" in disaster ratings, which coupled with the in-verse claims of system being unreliable places some heavy doubt on any sort of consistency with the ratings. If the system is flawed, why should anyone trust it for DC measurement?


OneSimpleAnime said:


> L M A O at Vaccine Man and Melzalgald being weaker than any Demon


...


> This way, ratings are not reliable in measuring raw power, because there are lots of outliers, both on the low and high ends. Some dragons (Vaccine Man, Melzalgard) are weaker than some demons (Sea King, Beefcake).





> Some dragons (Vaccine Man, Melzalgard) are weaker than some demons (Sea King, Beefcake)





> *SOME* dragons are weaker than *SOME* demons


Talk about reading comprehension problems.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 18, 2017)

Vaccine man and Melzalgald shit on Sea King and Marugori. They shit on Suiryu too, who you claim is at the top of demon class


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## Toratorn (May 18, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Vaccine man and Melzalgald shit on Sea King and Marugori. They shit on Suiryu too, who you claim is at the top of demon class


Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Where the hell did I say that Suiryu at the top of demon class? Why would that rating, which doesn't even show power and applies to monsters only, apply to human like Suiryu? He is not above Sea King, I'd say he is not even above early Genos or Mosquito Girl, if we compare the calc results of Genos' and Choze's blasts. Vaccine Man's blast, btw, also sucked even in comparison to early Genos, which is why he is weaker than Sea King, who fought an upgraded Genos in dry form and did pretty well. Melzalgard is crap for resons stated on the previous page. So no, neither Melz nor VM shit on DSK or Marugori. More like the other way around.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Sablés (May 18, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Not quite. His durability is shit (Iaian and PPP managed to slice/punch through him), as is his speed (maybe not tagging Bang and AS doesn't show that, but not tagging PPP and MB for most of the fight is kinda weak), and getting held in place by PPP doesn't speak a lot about his strength. His only valuable asset was regeneration, which allowed him to tangle with 4 S-Classes for so long.


Tangoing with 3-4  s classes under any circumstance is beyond anything a demon-class like Sea King had any hope of achieving.

Not to mention that you're way off-base here. Because you've stopped trying to argue hypothetical power levels and are now trying to prove  a definitive in-verse, therefore you have to provide conclusive evidence that Melzalgald is weaker than the Demon-class you listed.

Let me tell you right now that Beefcake having more impressive feats than Mel would not make him stronger unless you can directly compare them and considering Mel was fighting some of the best the S-class has to offer, I fucking doubt it.



> As for the exeptions thing... There are way too many of these "exceptions" in disaster ratings, which coupled with the in-verse claims of system being unreliable places some heavy doubt on any sort of consistency with the ratings. If the system is flawed, why should anyone trust it for DC measurement?


If there are too many exceptions then they're not exceptions.

Fix that wording.


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## xenos5 (May 18, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Where the hell did I say that Suiryu at the top of demon class? Why would that rating, which doesn't even show power and applies to monsters only, apply to human like Suiryu? He is not above Sea King, I'd say he is not even above early Genos or Mosquito Girl, if we compare the calc results of Genos' and Choze's blasts. Vaccine Man's blast, btw, also sucked even in comparison to early Genos, which is why he is weaker than Sea King, who fought an upgraded Genos in dry form and did pretty well. Melzalgard is crap for resons stated on the previous page. So no, neither Melz nor VM shit on DSK or Marugori. More like the other way around.



You're downplaying Suiryu hardcore. I'd still place Suiryu at the top of demon class strength and speed wise. Marugori should just be raised to dragon level with that quote.


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## Toratorn (May 19, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Tangoing with 3-4  s classes under any circumstance is beyond anything a demon-class like Sea King had any hope of achieving.


Tangoing as in failing to hurt or even tag any one of them, getting held in one place by PPP of all people, getting taken apart by each of them and only surviving due to regeneration? Sounds fairly unimressive. The only thing Melz has over Sea King is more potent regen, while SK is definitely stronger and durable, seeing how he stomped PPP and was able to keep up with Genos, and faster, seeing how he, again, managed to tangle with Genos and even Sonic when wet.


> Not to mention that you're way off-base here. Because you've stopped trying to argue hypothetical power levels and are now trying to prove  a definitive in-verse, therefore you have to provide conclusive evidence that Melzalgald is weaker than the Demon-class you listed.


Did that already. Melz is plainly outclassed in stats by both DSK and Marugori, while VM has no speed feats to talk about, his energy blasts are pretty unimpressive in energy output even compared to early Genos (and especially to Marugori's barrage), and if his durability is comparable to his energy output, he is pretty squishy as well. In fact, it just accured to me Saitama's punch that killed VM could be calced from cloud dispersion that followed (in anime, at least) to determine how much energy was needed to off Vaccine Man.


> Let me tell you right now that Beefcake having more impressive feats than Mel would not make him stronger unless you can directly compare them and considering Mel was fighting some of the best the S-class has to offer, I fucking doubt it.


That doesn't make any sense. Beefcake's feats do make him more impressive than Melz, and the later was only able to survive the encounter with heroes due to regen. You don't say that Deadpool is more powerful than Spider-Man because he can regen from shit, right?
In fact, if it was Genos who faced him, Melz would be killed in one heat blast.


> If there are too many exceptions then they're not exceptions.
> 
> Fix that wording.


I meant that if there are too many exceptions, then the validity of the whole rule comes into question. The rule being the accuracy of disaster ratings and DC they are "supposed to" represent.


xenos5 said:


> You're downplaying Suiryu hardcore. I'd still place Suiryu at the top of demon class strength and speed wise. Marugori should just be raised to dragon level with that quote.


No I'm not. More like you're overhyping him based on very questionable evidence (or lack thereof). What we actually have is Suiryu struggling with Choze, whose best quantifiable feat (Inferior Race Annihilation Shot) was determined to be unimpressive even in comparison to House of Evolution arc Genos and who has no speed feats that can even stand near Genos' mhs+ speed. Then he got trashed by casual Gouketsu, who in serious mode was able to blitz Genos and one-shot him. Then, in much worse state, he got punked by crows, then managed to one-shot one, then was again beaten to half-death by Bakuzan, who didn't show anything remotely impressive, and twisted his finger, which got fine several panels later. Nothing here is enough to place Suiryu above Genos, SK or Marugori, or even Mosquito Girl, in neither power, speed or durability. So he is at best above TTM, but not anyone else.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 19, 2017)

>still saying Melz is weaker than demon levels
>Suiryu below Mosquito Girl, yet somehow also above TTM


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## Juub (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >still saying Melz is weaker than demon levels
> >Suiryu below Mosquito Girl, yet somehow also above TTM


Who's TTM?


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 19, 2017)

im guessing Tanktop Master


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## Juub (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> im guessing Tanktop Master


Oh alright.

Tanktop Master seems to be the weakest S-class hero after Puri-Puri Prisoner so it's hard to say how strong he really is.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 19, 2017)

Juub said:


> Oh alright.
> 
> Tanktop Master seems to be the weakest S-class hero after Puri-Puri Prisoner so it's hard to say how strong he really is.


i doubt that. Hes at least as strong as PPP imo


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## Juub (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> i doubt that. Hes at least as strong as PPP imo


He's stronger but how strong is Puri-Puri Prisoner anyway? Guy got easily owned by Sea King who was later on the losing side of a fight with injured one-armed Genos. From what we've seen he's definitely the second weakest S-class.


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## Toratorn (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >still saying Melz is weaker than demon levels
> >Suiryu below Mosquito Girl, yet somehow also above TTM


Are you actually capable of reading? Melz is below just Marugori and anyone who scales to Genos, any other demon is going to be weaker. Maybe.

TTM has zero feats besides throwing a boulder and getting wrecked by Garou. So of course he is gonna be below both Mosquito Girl and Suiryu. These two at least have feats putting them at ~city level (or scaling from Genos).

You're welcome to prove me wrong. If you can.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 19, 2017)

Juub said:


> He's stronger but how strong is Puri-Puri Prisoner anyway? Guy got easily owned by Sea King who was later on the losing side of a fight with injured one-armed Genos. From what we've seen he's definitely the second weakest S-class.


Nah Dry Sea King was gonna beat one armed Genos. Genos even says he isnt sure how long he can hold him off


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## Juub (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Nah Dry Sea King was gonna beat one armed Genos. Genos even says he isnt sure how long he can hold him off


Was he? Last I watched Genos had the upper hand and was missing an arm but sacrificed himself to save that girl. 

Either way even one-armed Genos was significantly stronger than Puri-Puri Prisoner. Tank Top Master may as well be weaker than early Genos. All we know is that he is stronger than Puri-Puri Prisoner which doesn't mean much.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 19, 2017)

Juub said:


> Was he? Last I watched Genos had the upper hand and was missing an arm but sacrificed himself to save that girl.
> 
> Either way even one-armed Genos was significantly stronger than Puri-Puri Prisoner. Tank Top Master may as well be weaker than early Genos. All we know is that he is stronger than Puri-Puri Prisoner which doesn't mean much.


PPP is currently stronger than Sea King, at least the dry version and possibly the wet version. His Dark Angel Rush putting holes in Melzalgald speaks for itself

Genos full power blast only dehydrated Sea King and left a wound that he healed from in a minute or two, while Genos had lost an arm. Sea King was winning


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## Juub (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> PPP is currently stronger than Sea King, at least the dry version and possibly the wet version. His Dark Angel Rush putting holes in Melzalgald speaks for itself
> 
> Genos full power blast only dehydrated Sea King and left a wound that he healed from in a minute or two, while Genos had lost an arm. Sea King was winning


Rewatch the fight. Genos was winning. Sea King hit him once, Genos punched him into the air, used his lightning eye and kicked him back to the ground.

Unless Puri-Puri Prisoner dramatically improved there is no reason to put him above Sea King who was a good deal stronger. He low-diffed him after all.

Damaging Mezalgald doesn't mean a thing. We've been through that. His body is extremely malleable. Iaian managed to cut him a few times with no problem. Mezalgald then turned his arm into a sledgehammer and took Iaian's arm off like nothing.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 19, 2017)

Juub said:


> Rewatch the fight. Genos was winning. Sea King hit him once, Genos punched him into the air, used his lightning eye and kicked him back to the ground.
> 
> Unless Puri-Puri Prisoner dramatically improved there is no reason to put him above Sea King who was a good deal stronger. He low-diffed him after all.
> 
> Damaging Mezalgald doesn't mean a thing. We've been through that. His body is extremely malleable. Iaian managed to cut him a few times with no problem. Mezalgald then turned his arm into a sledgehammer and took Iaian's arm off like nothing.


>using the anime
>


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## Sablés (May 19, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Tangoing as in failing to hurt or even tag any one of them



Must've imagined him slamming Bang into a wall then.



> getting held in one place by PPP of all people


You mean while focusing on all the other S-classes at the same time right?

Selective reading must be convenient.



> The only thing Melz has over Sea King is more potent regen,


1) Implying regen isn't a measure of overall power
2) Implying Mel lacks DC when the entire fight he was converting his own destructive power to regen in order to keep up with that many S-classes.



> while SK is definitely stronger and durable





> Did that already. Melz is plainly outclassed in stats by both DSK and Marugor


Both of which you've yet to prove (Durability aside)

And no, your inability to grasp why destroying city-blocks mean jackshit for a *tangible *comparison is not proof.



> I meant that if there are too many exceptions



I know what you meant but that isn't what you said and considering we're talking about definitions, that's a terrible mistake to make.



> No I'm not. More like you're overhyping him based on very questionable evidence



Nothing is questionable.

Dragon is on a higher threat-level than Demon
Power is the metric in this circumstance

You're downplaying hard and ignoring context.


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## Juub (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >using the anime
> >





OneSimpleAnime said:


> >using the anime
> >


What's wrong with using the anime?


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 19, 2017)

Juub said:


> What's wrong with using the anime?


its non canon


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## Juub (May 19, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> its non canon


Why? Is the manga non-canon too?


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## Nevan (May 19, 2017)

Regicide said:


> What kind of mental gymnastics is this? *Dragon class is superior to demon class *by definition, the only point of contention is whether or not something is accurately labeled in the first place.
> 
> If X is 20, and Y is 30 but thought to be 5, that doesn't mean 5 is potentially greater than 20; it just means it's not fucking 5.





Sablés said:


> Pretty sure it doesn't work this way, man.
> 
> Exceptions to the rule are just that, the exceptions. YOU need to prove that this particular case exists, not the other way around. Until you do, its much safer to follow the general premise.


It's not that Dragon>Demon is in doubt, it's that there are several factors that makes it so, not just stats.

For example, you can scale Bakuzan of Fist Fight Djin because they are the same monster in different levels, but you can't scale say the durability of Sea King to Withered Sprout or Homeless Emperor, because they were given their respective ratings for different reasons.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 20, 2017)

Juub said:


> Why? Is the manga non-canon too?


no? is this a real question??? Manga is new primary canon, Webcomic is supplementary and provides a glimpse into what we will see in the future. anime is seperate/secondary canon


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## Juub (May 20, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> no? is this a real question??? Manga is new primary canon, Webcomic is supplementary and provides a glimpse into what we will see in the future. anime is seperate/secondary canon


Who decided all of that. Curious. Manga was as canon as anime to me which was complimentary to the webcomic.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 20, 2017)

Juub said:


> Who decided all of that. Curious. Manga was as canon as anime to me which was complimentary to the webcomic.


Manga is the current main canon, its overseen by ONE who writes everything for it and hes been adding a lot. Anime is an adaptation that isnt overseen by him and changes some things here and there from the manga


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## shade0180 (May 20, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Anime is an adaptation that isnt overseen by him and changes some things here and there from the manga



yea, Except One pretty much also acknowledge the anime as canon too... as far as I recall..

 Someone need to dig up those comments though.

I have no clue if this is the right video considering it is blocked in my country..

So I'm just going to put it out for someone else to see..


But if it isn't right, there is a video on youtube where both Murata and One is actively involved with the making of the anime.


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## Juub (May 20, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Manga is the current main canon, its overseen by ONE who writes everything for it and hes been adding a lot. Anime is an adaptation that isnt overseen by him and changes some things here and there from the manga


I already know that but that's true only of current events. One stopped updating the manga a while ago but before that webcomic was the primary canon. It only changed with the Hero Hunt Arc and onwards. Anything before that, webcomic still holds precedence over anime and manga.

One is also actively involved in the anime adaptation. I agree now the manga is the primary canon because kinda like Super it comes out with the material first but before that they're equally as canon.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 20, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> yea, Except One pretty much also acknowledge the anime as canon too... as far as I recall..
> 
> Someone need to dig up those comments though.
> 
> ...





Juub said:


> I already know that but that's true only of current events. One stopped updating the manga a while ago but before that webcomic was the primary canon. It only changed with the Hero Hunt Arc and onwards. Anything before that, webcomic still holds precedence over anime and manga.
> 
> One is also actively involved in the anime adaptation. I agree now the manga is the primary canon because kinda like Super it comes out with the material first but before that they're equally as canon.


its a seperate canon. like how Tales of Zestiria and its anime are.

Manga has been the primary canon since early on. Webcomic is secondary to any of the manga material


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## Toratorn (May 20, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Must've imagined him slamming Bang into a wall then.


Oh, you mean slamming him into a wall and that move doing zero damage? Yeah, impreeeeeessive.



Sablés said:


> You mean while focusing on all the other S-classes at the same time right?
> Selective reading must be convenient.


Um... Focusing? You mean lashing out randomly, barely hitting anybody, then getitng held in place by PPP alowing Bang to knock his head down?

And even if you interprete that as "cocncentrting on other S-Classes", so fucking what? Him having his attention spread should make him unble to escape PPP's grip? Is that what you're implying?
Oh and yeah, the first scan above shows PPP deflecting attacks from angry Melzalgard. While same PPP was smashed by semi-serious DSK. DSK >>>>>> Melzalgard.


> 1) Implying regen isn't a measure of overall power
> 2) Implying Mel lacks DC when the entire fight he was converting his own destructive power to regen in order to keep up with that many S-classes.


"Converting DC to regen". Yeah, something that you assumed on zero evidence. Sure.
Regen means smth for overal power, sure. But it means jackshit if your regen is stacked against superior speed, power and durability.


> Both of which you've yet to prove (Durability aside)


More like "both of which you've yet to not dismiss for some phantom reasosns".


> And no, your inability to grasp why destroying city-blocks mean jackshit for a *tangible *comparison is not proof.


Character A gets his ass handed by character B. Character C fails to somewhat hurt and owerpower character A. Now replace A with PPP, B with DSK and C with Melzalgard. Here's your "tangible" comparison.


> Dragon is on a higher threat-level than Demon
> Power is the metric in this circumstance
> 
> You're downplaying hard and ignoring context.


This shit again? Yes, levels showcase threat. No, they don't showcase power, not necesarily. Proved dozens of times in series. To pit Suiryu at least somewhere above mid-demon tier you need to at least wait for Bakuzan's feats, because everything else he did was very unimpressive. And then again, extremely casual Bakuzan managed to break his leg without effort, so even that might not help. Suiryu wank should stop.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 20, 2017)

he broke a toe (which was fine a few pages later btw) not a leg

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Sablés (May 20, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Oh, you mean slamming him into a wall and that move doing zero damage? Yeah, impreeeeeessive.



hey, you're the one shifting the goalpost

don't blame me if you get it wrong.

Not to mention he was sent careening through walls like a pinball, which doesn't happen without sufficient force. 

And even if you interprete that as "cocncentrting on other S-Classes", so fucking what? Him having his attention spread should make him unble to escape PPP's grip? Is that what you're implying?




> "Converting DC to regen". Yeah, something that you assumed on zero evidence. Sure.


try again





> More like "both of which you've yet to not dismiss for some phantom reasosns".



cute, call me when you figure out what you've done wrong tho.



> Here's your "tangible" comparison.



You're missing characters D-F

and the fact that PPP is stronger than he was before via learning from his mistakes against DSK. might want to stop with your false comparisons.



> This shit again?



work on that reading comprehension please

i won't explain why the HA definition of dragon has little to do with Gouketsu's measurements again. If you still don't understand by now then that's your loss.



> because everything else he did was very unimpressive.



"everything else he did" was sufficient for him to be labeled as dragon level. that being a show of martial skill and stats

>unimpressive

sure m8


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## Toratorn (May 21, 2017)

Sablés said:


> hey, you're the one shifting the goalpost
> 
> don't blame me if you get it wrong.
> 
> Not to mention he was sent careening through walls like a pinball, which doesn't happen without sufficient force.


Moving the goalposts? Wait, so you actually implied that launching a human-sized target flying into the wall is very impressive strength-wise? Or that hitting an airborne target that can't even dodge is a sufficient speed showing? Yeah, no.



> try again


Yeah, here we see Melz saying that he was focusing on defence rather than offense. Nothing about "converting regen to DC" bullshit.



> You're missing characters D-F
> 
> and the fact that PPP is stronger than he was before via learning from his mistakes against DSK. might want to stop with your false comparisons.


Characters that Melz was still failing to tag or hurt. And considering he was pretty good with multitasking, all that several independent heads and shapeshifting stuff, him fighting against everyone still shouldn't make him slower or weaker. And considering PPP was the weakest and slowest of the bunch, he is the becnchmark.

"He got stronger". Ah, another assumption you based on nothing. For all we know he just punched with all force he had.




> work on that reading comprehension please
> 
> i won't explain why the HA definition of dragon has little to do with Gouketsu's measurements again. If you still don't understand by now then that's your loss.


Won't explain again because Gouketsu using a flawed system for measurement means jack? Especially considering his "gauging" literally consists of assuming some people may be pretty strong? Don't feed me that crap.




> "everything else he did" was sufficient for him to be labeled as dragon level. that being a show of martial skill and stats
> 
> >unimpressive
> 
> sure m8


First, I was talking about Suiryu. Second, whatever the hell Gouketsu said (whose word is now unquestionable authority for... reasons? yeah, sure) means jackshit when all Bakuzan did was pound Suiryu, who at the point was weak enough to get hurt by tiger class crows, and get his ass handed to him by casual Gouketsu.
All that "dragon this" and "Suiryu that" crap really looks like desperate grasping at straws.


OneSimpleAnime said:


> he broke a toe (which was fine a few pages later btw) not a leg


Reading problems again? Bakuzan breaking Suiryu's leg, not Suiryu twisting Bakuzan's finger.


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## Juub (May 21, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> its a seperate canon. like how Tales of Zestiria and its anime are.
> 
> Manga has been the primary canon since early on. Webcomic is secondary to any of the manga material


Do you have a source for that?


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 21, 2017)

Juub said:


> Do you have a source for that?


its a redrawn version that had things added and is ONEs primary focus. why would the anime be primary canon?


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 21, 2017)

Why is Marugori being wanked here when his feat's worth less than beginning of the series Genos?



Juub said:


> Tank Top Master may as well be weaker than early Genos. All we know is that he is stronger than Puri-Puri Prisoner which doesn't mean much.



Wrong buddy

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (May 21, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why is Marugori being wanked here when his feat's worth less than beginning of the series Genos?


To summarize the argument:

-Whether or not Dragon is overall superior to Demon as a general rule
-Debating Gouketsu's statement on Bakuzan being Dragon-level


One of the arguments for the first is Marugori having better feats than Bakuzan (which relates to Suiryu...for some reason) which as far as I remember, was piss-poor regardless, for the verse.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 21, 2017)

Sablés said:


> To summarize the argument:
> 
> -Whether or not Dragon is overall superior to Demon as a general rule
> -Debating Gouketsu's statement on Bakuzan being Dragon-level



This is stupid

There was an entire special chapter recently where the punchline was that Saitama's implied to be the only reason behind "level ratings" being "unreliable"

They're otherwise demonstrated to be pretty spot on and no more of a convoluted system than any other arbitrary shonen powerscale



> One of the arguments for the first is Marugori having better feats than Bakuzan (which relates to Suiryu...for some reason) which as far as I remember, was piss-poor regardless, for the verse.



His crater took about a dozen punches minimum to form IIRC

And calcing his feat via his official size gives me about 1 megaton for the combined crater creation IIRC

Which if I felt like being a dick about it?

Just further preserves the integrity of the threat level scale if I could bother posting that revision

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Juub (May 21, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> its a redrawn version that had things added and is ONEs primary focus. why would the anime be primary canon?


I never said anime is primary canon. I simply think dismissing what happened in the anime isn't valid. Just like the manga it adds to the webcomic. His primary focus is also Mob Psycho 100, not One-Punch Man. As a result I think what happened in the anime is just as acceptable as what happened in the manga. The fight between Genos and Sea King was slightly longer and more detailed in the anime, doesn't make it non-canon. One is also heavily involved in the making of the anime so I'm not sure why we would ignore what happens there.

For instance, Ancient King appeared briefly in the webcomic and anime but didn't show up at all in the manga. He is a One creation. He shouldn't be counted as non-canon because he never showed up in the manga.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why is Marugori being wanked here when his feat's worth less than beginning of the series Genos?
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong buddy



He took out an entire town with a wave of his hand and was apparently gonna be upgraded to Dragon before Saitama killed him. According to his brother his swipe killed thousands of people. Casually wiping out a town hasn't been seen often in the series. Nobody is wanking Marugori either. We just think he would stomp out Suiryu and probably Bakuzan too. The argument used was that he was only Demon-level but disaster levels don't solely rely on destructive capacity. There are other factors at play.

It's also hilarious how off Murata is with size. Marugori appeared to be like 50M tall then was revealed to be around 25M. Gouketsu goes from 12ft tall to 18ft tall to 40ft tall in the same chapter lol.

Ah so Tanktop Master is comparable to current Genos before his supposed Dragon-level upgrade. Still probably makes him the second weakest but at least significantly stronger than Puri-Puri Prisoner.


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## Sablés (May 21, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Moving the goalposts? Wait, so you actually implied that launching a human-sized target flying into the wall is very impressive strength-wise? Or that hitting an airborne target that can't even dodge is a sufficient speed showing? Yeah, no.


I'm not implying anything. I'm saying you should upgrade that reading comprehension a bit.

This is you



Toratorn said:


> Tangoing as in failing to hurt or even tag any one of them



Which (the tag part that I explicitly highlighted) is pretty damn wrong with Bang as an example but instead of admitting that, you did this.



Toratorn said:


> Oh, you mean slamming him into a wall and that move doing zero damage? Yeah, impreeeeeessive.



For real? This is the textbook definition of shifting the goalpost.

Never even mind that, what this supposed to mean?



Toratorn said:


> Wait, so you actually implied that launching a human-sized target flying into the wall is very impressive strength-wise? Or that hitting an airborne target that can't even dodge is a sufficient speed showing?



What's impressive is launching Bang across several layers of concrete. Where do you get "human-sized" target from this or....are you trying to suggest that tossing someone like Bang is no more of a feat than doing the same to an average human? In which case, I'll just laugh at you.

What kind of selective reading even is the second? Why do you think Bang is in the air, in the first place, numbnuts?

Because he's the one who attacked Melzalgald. Fuck is it a detriment to the monster when he retaliates despite dealing with 4 others?



> Yeah, here we see Melz saying that he was focusing on defence rather than offense. Nothing about "converting regen to DC" bullshit.



I say again, work on that reading comp

Mel is focusing on defense that entire fight because he's bitten off more than he could chew against multiple s class, most of which are stronger than him by themselves. Meaning if he didn't focus on defense because of attacks from multiple angles, his _offense _would improve.



			
				Convert said:
			
		

> to alter for more effective utilization






> Characters that Melz was still failing to tag or hurt. And considering he was pretty good with multitasking,


Read this back to yourself until this makes sense.



> "He got stronger". Ah, another assumption you based on nothing. For all we know he just punched with all force he had.



Literally a scene present where PPP reflects on his failings against DSK and starts going at it with genuine killing intent. Something that, even as mindset change alone, would result in superior combat efficacy.

>Not getting stronger

Ok m8. More like you're just in denial of everything that goes against your shitty logic.



> Won't explain again because Gouketsu using a flawed system for measurement means jack? Especially considering his "gauging" literally consists of assuming some people may be pretty strong? Don't feed me that crap.


Reading

Comprehension

Get pls.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 21, 2017)

Juub said:


> He took out an entire town with a wave of his hand and was apparently gonna be upgraded to Dragon before Saitama killed him.



He took out a few city blocks at best with that swing

Are you seriously going to even try this one with me? 

Also, where's this Dragon level comment from.  It's been a while since I read the chapter.



> According to his brother his swipe killed thousands of people.



I could do the same with an MOAB

Or, you know, 11 tons of TNT



> Casually wiping out a town hasn't been seen often in the series.



Again, he took out a few city blocks

Also?

Are you genuinely appealing to conservation of energy?

Because I should reiterate?

I will just laugh you out of the thread

Because that's not even a concept we acknowledge as an argument from series to series anymore because it was often being too subjectively applied an is never observed to be retained in series anyway



> Nobody is wanking Marugori either. We just think he would stomp out Suiryu and probably Bakuzan too.



You're entitled to a wrong opinion I suppose *shrugs*



> The argument used was that he was only Demon-level but disaster levels don't solely rely on destructive capacity. There are other factors at play.



There really isn't much to it





That's about all the currently acknowledged flaws are sans one about shapeshifting I didn't quite get given the power itself is just another example of subterfuge

That being said?

Hiding their power?  Needs to be directly acknowledged by the narrative to use as an actual argument when discussing a given character.  You need some objective basis for foundation to that kind of claim otherwise we can just throw around speculative bullshit all day and get no where



> Ah so Tanktop Master is comparable to current Genos before his supposed Dragon-level upgrade. Still probably makes him the second weakest but at least significantly stronger than Puri-Puri Prisoner.



Arguably stronger given Genos vs Garou was a fairly even contest despite Garou not being healed yet, but yeah


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## Juub (May 21, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> He took out a few city blocks at best with that swing
> 
> Are you seriously going to even try this one with me?


It was said to be a town.
"D-Ville was just reported to have been destroyed"
"Thousands of people dead"
"Ok, let's annihilate the next town"



> Also, where's this Dragon level comment from.  It's been a while since I read the chapter.


It was an interview.

Or did you miss the rest of the fight where naruto needed to feint kaguya at every juncture before even attempting to attack her 





> I could do the same with an MOAB
> 
> Or, you know, 11 tons of TNT
> 
> ...


There was a shit ton of smoke hiding most of the destruction in the panel(or maybe it was smog?). It was difficult to see the actual scale of the damage but it was said to be an entire "city" but more like a town because it was D-ville.

Our problem is that Bakuzan and Suiryu even powerscaling wise are practically featless. That's why Marugori's DC was brought up. Suiryu beat Lightning Max and Sneck who are known scrubs. He then high-diff Choze who wasn't even given a rating. After that he got stomped out by Gouketsu.

Also I know conservation of energy doesn't work from a series to another which isn't the point.




> There really isn't much to it
> 
> 
> That's about all the currently acknowledged flaws are sans one about shapeshifting I didn't quite get given the power itself is just another example of subterfuge


Been covered already. HA association said several things go into disaster ratings such as "capacity for destruction, aggressiveness, difficulty of extermination etc". The fact that some monsters can hide their strength wasn't the main point of contention. It was the fact that destructive capacity isn't the sole metric for giving disaster levels. Withered Sprout for instance could freeze people to death on a rather large scale and was given a suggested rating of Dragon but it's very doubtful he could have wiped out a town casually.



> That being said?
> 
> Hiding their power?  Needs to be directly acknowledged by the narrative to use as an actual argument when discussing a given character.  You need some objective basis for foundation to that kind of claim otherwise we can just throw around speculative bullshit all day and get no where





And I agree with that. In a vacuum, a random Dragon should be stronger than a random Demon 100% of the time. Another example was the Surly Brothers easily disposing of Macho Daikon who was rated as a Demon yet they doubted it was a Demon because of how weak it was. They beat him like nothing. Spring Mustachio and Golden Ball on the other hand got destroyed by Kombu Infinity who was rated as a Tiger-level disaster. After its fight with Golden-Ball and Spring Mustachio, a bunch of A-class were shocked by the destruction it could cause and said they wouldn't like to face it. It's very doubtful Kombu was weaker than Maicho Daikon despite being rated lower which is supported by the fact the HA said that disaster level isn't only about power.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 22, 2017)

Juub said:


> It was said to be a town.



I know

Town size can and does vary

And even with the dust?

You can rather plainly see buildings and roads (top right corner of the panel) behind where the destruction occurred still fully intact

The point?

Its a bit feat and not worth any sort of tangent considering

Especially considering Marugori's 270 meter tall ass is a large fixture in the panel, thus indicating a small town.



> It was an interview.
> 
> And even with the dust



That would be why I missed it then

Suppose Marugori gets to benefit from BoS Genos too if that's the case *shrugs*



> There was a shit ton of smoke hiding most of the destruction in the panel(or maybe it was smog?). It was difficult to see the actual scale of the damage but it was said to be an entire "city" but more like a town because it was D-ville.



Again, you can clearly see buildings in the wake of his swing even with the smoke still hilariously intact only a few hundred meters away

No crater either

While its certainly above an MOAB or FOAB, its hilariously beneath any single punch that created that crater of his later, so not even worth discussing



> Our problem is that Bakuzan and Suiryu even powerscaling wise are practically featless.



Featless is irrelevant so long as there are accompanying accolades that aren't contradicted

Yu Yu Hakusho is quite possibly the premiere example of this with about 100 featless characters end of series powerscaling from Sensui and Yusuke solely by virtue of knowing their numbers are higher than their's were

Just replace arbitrary numbers with threat level *shrugs*



> That's why Marugori's DC was brought up.



Which, again, is silly when BoS Genos is the measuring stick for anything and all things high level demon and up



> Suiryu beat Lightning Max and Sneck who are known scrubs. He then high-diff Choze who wasn't even given a rating. After that he got stomped out by Gouketsu.



The fact he's not a pile of gore from his bout with Gouketsu, who wrecked current Genos (even if he was weakened, a cyborg's materials aren't about to lose their inherent durability from stamina loss)?

Says a fuckton about how strong and durable Suiryu is



> Also I know conservation of energy doesn't work from a series to another which isn't the point.



Then don't go saying bullshit like this as an actual part of your post



Juub said:


> Casually wiping out a town hasn't been seen often in the series.



Because that can lead to the conclusion you're playing off that tangent



> Been covered already. HA association said several things go into disaster ratings such as "capacity for destruction, aggressiveness, difficulty of extermination etc". The fact that some monsters can hide their strength wasn't the main point of contention. It was the fact that destructive capacity isn't the sole metric for giving disaster levels.



You're making it sound like each facet actually has equal weight to one another

Difficulty to exterminate?  Capacity for destruction?  Fit rather cleanly into the powerscaling model.

Aggression?

Are you about to suggest that actually holds the same sort of weight when the upper limits of how useful being aggressive is ends up being curbed by... destructive power and durability

Much like skill, aggression is limited in utility by primary factors such as the former and thus would naturally be weaker facets to discussion of actual threat level in any sort of logical discussion



> Withered Sprout for instance could freeze people to death on a rather large scale and was given a suggested rating of Dragon but it's very doubtful he could have wiped out a town casually.



It's not all about scale in fiction *shrugs*

Again, coming back to conservation of energy not being present, while the AOE may not be present?  The energy can and often does match up with the arbitrary categories

Withered Sprout may not have the AOE, but he can rob a high level of joules from a given location comparable to such and such an AOE.



> And I agree with that. In a vacuum, a random Dragon should be stronger than a random Demon 100% of the time.



Alright



> Another example was the Surly Brothers easily disposing of Macho Daikon who was rated as a Demon yet they doubted it was a Demon because of how weak it was. They beat him like nothing.



Weak in what regard?

I forget the details and its been a while since I read it

Could have just been a glass cannon for example, but I can't say either way



> Spring Mustachio and Golden Ball on the other hand got destroyed by Kombu Infinity who was rated as a Tiger-level disaster.  After its fight with Golden-Ball and Spring Mustachio, a bunch of A-class were shocked by the destruction it could cause and said they wouldn't like to face it. It's very doubtful Kombu was weaker than Maicho Daikon despite being rated lower which is supported by the fact the HA said that disaster level isn't only about power.



A monster located in an area where the number one reason (Saitama) for the association's inability to properly gauge threat level lives is underrated?

Does this surprise you and even remotely contradict anything I've been briefly discussing dude?


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## Juub (May 22, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know
> 
> Town size can and does vary
> 
> ...


And what would the DC be for that? I believe you or someone else did the calculation? Half the damn links on this site are broken. From what I know I haven't seen that often in the series, much less casually.




> That would be why I missed it then
> 
> Suppose Marugori gets to benefit from BoS Genos too if that's the case *shrugs*


 What has beginning of series Genos done that was as impressive casually? Blasting away the House of Evolution comes to mind and there was this time he wiped out Mosquito Girl's swarm in one blast but how does that stack up to what Marugori did by waving his hand?

Too bad Murata sucks at scaling size too. Makes the whole thing harder to really assess but what can you do?




> Again, you can clearly see buildings in the wake of his swing even with the smoke still hilariously intact only a few hundred meters away
> 
> No crater either
> 
> While its certainly above an MOAB or FOAB, its hilariously beneath any single punch that created that crater of his later, so not even worth discussing


That small crater he punched Saitama in? I could see that huge, deep crater he created by repeatedly punching being more impressive. Either way if that crater is hilariously above it, that puts Marugori even higher.




> Featless is irrelevant so long as there are accompanying accolades that aren't contradicted


Not really. If Marugori hadn't wiped out a town with a single swing of his hand and be rated as a Demon, nobody would even argue. Marugori is rated so high based on his feats alone. His other feat was getting knocked out by Saitama. Same for Vaccine Man and Carnage Kabuto who have practically no showing powerscaling wise(you can't powerscale off Saitama).



> Yu Yu Hakusho is quite possibly the premiere example of this with about 100 featless characters end of series powerscaling from Sensui and Yusuke solely by virtue of knowing their numbers are higher than their's were
> 
> Just replace arbitrary numbers with threat level *shrugs*


Never read Yu Yu Hakusho so I can't comment. A monster wiping out a town is relevant in One Punch man as it gives insight to its potential threat level. It's probably completely irrelevant in Yu Yu Hakusho no? The disaster level scale is entirely about how much of a threat a monster is so causing damage is an important factor. Not the sole one but important nonetheless.




> Which, again, is silly when BoS Genos is the measuring stick for anything and all things high level demon and up


Is it because he wiped out that chunk of mountain the House of Evolution was sitting on?





> The fact he's not a pile of gore from his bout with Gouketsu, who wrecked current Genos (even if he was weakened, a cyborg's materials aren't about to lose their inherent durability from stamina loss)?
> 
> Says a fuckton about how strong and durable Suiryu is


Gouketsu was toying with Suiryu and sucker punched Genos. Suiryu said if he took a second punch he would be done for. Suiryu survived that punch because Gouketsu allowed him to. He could have easily killed him with a single blow.




> Then don't go saying bullshit like this as an actual part of your post


It is an actual part but it isn't the entire point. The entire point revolves around Marugori being strong enough to be a threat to multiple cities and One saying he would have been rated as a Dragon-level monster had he stayed for longer. The destruction he spread was used to support this but by the way you talk, it doesn't seem like it was that impressive. Basically we were saying based on the HA's very own definition of disaster level Dragon, Marugori should have gotten that rating the minute he destroyed D-ville. With One's interview turns out we were right and the HA was well, wrong, despite creating the system themselves.

You said yourself his DC is above that of a FOAB. So how is a giant sized, mean-looking mofo with FOAB's in his hands not a threat to multiple cities? This guy was basically about to do what Elder Centipede did.



> You're making it sound like each facet actually has equal weight to one another


Not saying that. Simply saying there are other factors at play.



> Difficulty to exterminate?  Capacity for destruction?  Fit rather cleanly into the powerscaling model.


Yeah no argument there.



> Aggression?
> 
> Are you about to suggest that actually holds the same sort of weight when the upper limits of how useful being aggressive is ends up being curbed by... destructive power and durability


Not necessarily the same sort of weight but it holds some weight regardless. For example, a hippo is more dangerous than an elephant because it is far more aggressive. Likewise, an extremely aggressive monster could be more dangerous than a more powerful, calmer monster. It's like Kid Buu who was most definitely not the strongest Buu but by far the most violent and aggressive. As a result he was deemed the most dangerous.



> Much like skill, aggression is limited in utility by primary factors such as the former and thus would naturally be weaker facets to discussion of actual threat level in any sort of logical discussion


I can agree with that. The point wasn't that aggression was as important as DC or durability. The point was that it was a factor and might even be a significant one. That and there are even other factors besides that. Speed and intelligence weren't mentioned but it's almost guaranteed they have an impact as well.



> It's not all about scale in fiction *shrugs*
> 
> Again, coming back to conservation of energy not being present, while the AOE may not be present?  The energy can and often does match up with the arbitrary categories


Scale is really important in that case because the definition of Dragon-level is a monster that is a threat to multiple cities or its infrastructure. As such, a monster needs to be able to cause damage on a massive scale very quickly to be a threat to multiple cities.



> Withered Sprout may not have the AOE, but he can rob a high level of joules from a given location comparable to such and such an AOE.


And how would that make him an immediate threat to multiple cities? Legit question.



> Weak in what regard?
> 
> I forget the details and its been a while since I read it
> 
> Could have just been a glass cannon for example, but I can't say either way


That radish monster Smile Man and his brother fought in the special chapter discussing disaster levels. After beating it rather easily Smile Man expressed his doubts it was a Demon-level disaster. What's more? They beat it in close combat and it didn't land a single blow on any of them. Even assuming it was a glass cannon, a monster rated that high should have been fast or strong enough to manage something but got beaten like it was nothing.




> A monster located in an area where the number one reason (Saitama) for the association's inability to properly gauge threat level lives is underrated?


Wasn't located there. It said it was from out of town and had come to check out the rumors but found nothing.


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## xenos5 (May 26, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> No I'm not. More like you're overhyping him based on very questionable evidence (or lack thereof). What we actually have is Suiryu struggling with Choze, whose best quantifiable feat (Inferior Race Annihilation Shot) was determined to be unimpressive even in comparison to House of Evolution arc Genos and who has no speed feats that can even stand near Genos' mhs+ speed. Then he got trashed by casual Gouketsu, who in serious mode was able to blitz Genos and one-shot him. Then, in much worse state, he got punked by crows, then managed to one-shot one, then was again beaten to half-death by Bakuzan, who didn't show anything remotely impressive, and twisted his finger, which got fine several panels later. Nothing here is enough to place Suiryu above Genos, SK or Marugori, or even Mosquito Girl, in neither power, speed or durability. So he is at best above TTM, but not anyone else.



You've been proven indisputably wrong said

Genos was oneshot by Gouketsu with one blow. Suiryu wasn't. Suiryu managed to take blows from Monster Bakuzan even after the damage he sustained from Gouketsu.

Even disreagarding the whole argument that Monster Bakuzan is dragon class so he should be above any demon class. Suiryu is undeniably above Genos.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sablés (May 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Genos was oneshot by Gouketsu with one blow. Suiryu wasn't.


This...isn't how it works.

They're wrong for obvious reasons but not with this.

Gouketsu fought Suiryu so casually that there's no way to prove how it relates to Genos whose fight was entirely off-panel. For all we know, Gouketsu went at him even harder.

Furthermore, Gouketsu was looking for monsters to recruit which is largely the reason  Suiryu lasted so long. Genos is mostly machine so there's no use for him.


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## Toratorn (May 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You've been proven indisputably wrong Kampung Melayu suicide bomber identified
> 
> Genos was oneshot by Gouketsu with one blow. Suiryu wasn't. Suiryu managed to take blows from Monster Bakuzan even after the damage he sustained from Gouketsu.
> 
> Even disreagarding the whole argument that Monster Bakuzan is dragon class so he should be above any demon class. Suiryu is undeniably above Genos.


Still desperate for some Suiryu shaft pulling, huh. Gouketsu was clearly fucking around with Suiryu, not putting any effort at all. With Genos? He most likely wasn't. First, Genos is an S-Class Hero, an immediate threat that should be disposed as quick as possible by monsters, and not be played with. Second, he was a cyborg, completely useless to the monsterification thing. Not to meantion Genos was already damaged by two demons before. 

And still in denial of the whole disaster level thing, I see.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## shade0180 (May 26, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> -snip-.



It was mentioned he was being careless. He got one shotted due to him being careless. 

Suiryu was being serious and he got toyed with.


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## 1337RedGlitchFox (May 26, 2017)

This is still going on?
Bakuzan and Gouketsu just got mollywhopped.
What's the general consensus on how power should be measured in the entire week you all have been going on?


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## Juub (May 26, 2017)

1337RedGlitchFox said:


> What's the general consensus on how power should be measured in the entire week you all have been going on?


No consensus reached


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 26, 2017)

Juub said:


> And what would the DC be for that?



Hundreds of tons just eyeballing the after effects tbh



> I believe you or someone else did the calculation?



Not for this, because it's ultimately a bit feat compared to his barrage of 10 or so punches crater later



> Half the damn links on this site are broken.



Yay forum updates



> From what I know I haven't seen that often in the series, much less casually.



Welcome to shonen

Where 3 feats pre-Super was enough high end shit for Dragon Ball to be considered planetary



> What has beginning of series Genos done that was as impressive casually? Blasting away the House of Evolution comes to mind and there was this time he wiped out Mosquito Girl's swarm in one blast but how does that stack up to what Marugori did by waving his hand?





You may think of this feat as OPM's staple feat, because nothing else for anyone not Saitama, Tatsumaki, and Boros has topped it



> Too bad Murata sucks at scaling size too. Makes the whole thing harder to really assess but what can you do?



Not unique to Murata, but you work with what you have on panel *shrugs*



> That small crater he punched Saitama in?



No, the deep ass one he made with about 10 strikes (count the sfx on panel + the stomp)



> Not really. If Marugori hadn't wiped out a town with a single swing of his hand and be rated as a Demon, nobody would even argue.  Marugori is rated so high based on his feats alone. His other feat was getting knocked out by Saitama.



Nope

His feats grant context to what a demon/dragon can accomplish

His feats don't dictate his class, the narrative provides it to us

We just use the feats to determine where in the class he fits

You've got it entirely backwards



> Same for Vaccine Man and Carnage Kabuto who have practically no showing powerscaling wise(you can't powerscale off Saitama).



You're right about Vaccine Man sans being a Dragon, therefore getting the benefit of BoS Genos scaling... but Carnage Kabuto's BREATH was sufficient to snuff out Genos' beam attack... that took out 2 mountain tops



> A monster wiping out a town is relevant in One Punch man as it gives insight to its potential threat level.



It really is no more relevant in OPM than anywhere else, because CoE isn't observed here any better than any other series

Especially obvious when Withered Sprout's Dragon rating is based on comparing its performance to other Demon threats that the B class fuck observed fighting other S Class threats



> It's probably completely irrelevant in Yu Yu Hakusho no?



Its completely irrelevant here too

First time Murata failed to consistently demonstrate Genos' firepower on the level he did BoS it stopped being relevant *shrugs*

Even that's too specific frankly, because Genos isn't the only offender



> Is it because he wiped out that chunk of mountain the House of Evolution was sitting on?



Two mountain tops, but yeah



> Gouketsu was toying with Suiryu and sucker punched Genos.



Was he really toying with Suiryu with the blows he delivered when he had already determined he was going to have him die for his refusal?

Could you link me the pages?  My computer's going too slow atm for me to bother rereading on my own searching for them

And... again, Cyborg

Whether he's on guard or not is irrelevant, he's made of matter that doesn't naturally drop in durability because he wasn't focusing

Well, also irrelevant given the newest Chapter lets us know the fucker shits on Carnage Kabuto by Genos' own assessment, but still



> Suiryu said if he took a second punch he would be done for.



Dead and giblets aren't the same thing

An intact body still affords a fucker some measure of the feats' energy being endured where as gore means they get jack shit

You can thank Meruem and the Rose Bomb for hammering that one down



> Suiryu survived that punch because Gouketsu allowed him to. He could have easily killed him with a single blow.



The above

Again, you're not actually addressing my stance *shrugs*



> It is an actual part but it isn't the entire point. The entire point revolves around Marugori being strong enough to be a threat to multiple cities and One saying he would have been rated as a Dragon-level monster had he stayed for longer.



Curious how you're so quick to cite one or something tangentially related to your point, yet ignore One citing Metal Bat's ability to fight Dragon level threats for being a potential difference in the Monster Association Arc

Fucker's words and structure of the narrative rather blatantly serving to imply a fairly straight forward power hierarchy in that arc even

But let's ignore it because you want to selectively apply CoE for something Murata fails to observe ever *shrugs*

Its narrative fluff that never actually gets acknowledged in a fight



> The destruction he spread was used to support this but by the way you talk, it doesn't seem like it was that impressive.



Its a bit feat, yep

Doesn't even reflect more than a small town being generous



> Basically we were saying based on the HA's very own definition of disaster level Dragon, Marugori should have gotten that rating the minute he destroyed D-ville



We don't even know what their criteria for a real "town/city" is, and that one arm swing doesn't really qualify for the multiple Dragon requires

Had Saitama not intervened, maybe he'd have been more impressive, but he never displayed feats warranting the raise to Dragon level



> With One's interview turns out we were right and the HA was well, wrong, despite creating the system themselves.



One's interview only serves to clarify one specific instance the data they had to work with wasn't complete

I swear, this is how assholes in the real world end up concluding vaccinations cause autism...



> You said yourself his DC is above that of a FOAB. So how is a giant sized, mean-looking mofo with FOAB's in his hands not a threat to multiple cities?



If the criterion was over time, there's no actual upper limit to the destruction they can cause

It has to be all in one shot or else the fuck is stopping the fucker from going beyond a city or multiple?

Nothing sans the bizarre assumption it gets bored or else you could class anything that can inflict FOAB punches as a fucking Class God



> Not saying that. Simply saying there are other factors at play.



And I'm saying the only factors that would have any measurable weight in effecting rating are those regarding speed, durability, and destructive power

Nothing outside those particular factors will ever matter enough to function as a multiplier greater than single digits

Speed, durability, and DC?  Those scales are hilariously more broad (ie - require exponents to even bother discussing because lol joules/newtons/etc)

Think of skill or aggression

Now think about the fact marginal differences in weight lead to weight classes in real life and how much of a difference that weight means between fuckers of comparable skill/aggression

Why?

Because the difference in force the higher weighted fucker can exert



> Not necessarily the same sort of weight but it holds some weight regardless.



Yeah

Like an ant compared to a mountain



> For example, a hippo is more dangerous than an elephant because it is far more aggressive.



And yet the difference in stats between them is marginal (excuse the erasure of your other examples, it'd be redundant saying the same thing over and over again)

The scale for a low end demon to low en dragon is fucking hilariously larger in magnitude by comparison

Aggression/Skill will never be a deciding factor in who is a Demon or Dragon sans the Demon already teetering close to the divisor.



> I can agree with that. The point wasn't that aggression was as important as DC or durability. The point was that it was a factor and might even be a significant one.



Again, when difference on a scale can be measured by a multiplier into the thousands/millions like the difference between kilotons and gigatons?

No, aggression will never be significant as we can demonstrate on a human scale that it's multiplier tops out hilariously lower



> That and there are even other factors besides that. Speed and intelligence weren't mentioned but it's almost guaranteed they have an impact as well.



I can guarantee they will be as pithy a threat multiplier as the others already mentioned, but please stick to the ones actually clarified so as to not venture into fanon



> Scale is really important in that case because the definition of Dragon-level is a monster that is a threat to multiple cities or its infrastructure. As such, a monster needs to be able to cause damage on a massive scale very quickly to be a threat to multiple cities.



Or, you know, fight against fuckers that demonstrate the ability to fight fuckers that can do that sort of damage as was clarified in how Withered Sprout got its rating



> And how would that make him an immediate threat to multiple cities? Legit question.



His performance in a fight was being compared with other performances of Demons vs S Class heroes

Just about every S Class Hero that's fought on panel compares to Genos post BoS

Even Pre Pre Prisoner prior to Melzalgald isn't orders of magnitude weaker seeing as his performance with Seaking was solid



> That radish monster Smile Man and his brother fought in the special chapter discussing disaster levels. After beating it rather easily Smile Man expressed his doubts it was a Demon-level disaster.



Right, they specifically note its made of legit radishes and fragile

Glass cannon it is I suppose then



> Even assuming it was a glass cannon, a monster rated that high should have been fast or strong enough to manage something but got beaten like it was nothing.



Probably had something to do with being such a glass cannon it was made of legit raddishes



> Wasn't located there. It said it was from out of town and had come to check out the rumors but found nothing.



So, just another subterfuge monster

Which we have already established is acknowledged a blemish, but not criterion to throw the scale out the window



Juub said:


> No consensus reached



Don't mix up challenging the status quo with effectively altering it *shrugs*

Consensus exists, that much hasn't changed

Establishment of a new consensus has been rather flaccid in attempt however


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## Sablés (May 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Was he really toying with Suiryu with the blows he delivered when he had already determined he was going to have him die for his refusal?


Yeah kinda.



Gouketsu gave Suiryu quite a few chances to stay alive.


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## xenos5 (May 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Was he really toying with Suiryu with the blows he delivered when he had already determined he was going to have him die for his refusal?
> 
> Could you link me the pages? My computer's going too slow atm for me to bother rereading on my own searching for them



Gouketsu continually tested Suiryu by telling him to get up before 3 seconds could pass and Suiryu kept barely meeting Gouketsu's expectations.







Gouketsu reaches to grab Suiryu and Suiryu managed to jump out of the way just in
time



Suiryu blocks a punch from Gouketsu and although he's knocked far away and his arm is just about broken he wasn't knocked out





Gouketsu stomps on Suiryu says and tells him to get up in 3 seconds or he'll crush him. Suiryu manages to push his foot up just up and get back up in the nick of time.





Gouketsu pinches Suiryu's strongest attack





Gouketsu holds back his finger and flicks Suiryu over and over





Suiryu manages to stand up once more



Gouketsu kicks him in the torso and Suiryu manages to get up one last time before three seconds could pass (excluding the times he got up against Monster Bakuzan afterwards)



EDIT: Fuck, I forgot links don't seem to be working on this site anymore -_-


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## Juub (May 26, 2017)

Let's trim the fat and stick to the important points. What I wish to address:
Correlation between DC/strength and disaster level
Minimum DC/strength required to be rated at a certain disaster level





ChaosTheory123 said:


> If the criterion was over time, there's no actual upper limit to the destruction they can cause


See that's where we have a problem. Threat levels are left rather vague. Dragon is simply defined as "A threat endangering multiple cities" So it really doesn't imply being able to wipe out and entire city off the surface of the planet in an instant.



> It has to be all in one shot or else the fuck is stopping the fucker from going beyond a city or multiple?


At first that's what I thought but then the meteorite which was classified as a Dragon-level threat would have destroyed only a single city and damaged the nearby ones. It still classified as a threat to multiple cities but was most definitely not a multi-city buster.



> Nothing sans the bizarre assumption it gets bored or else you could class anything that can inflict FOAB punches as a fucking Class God


So far we haven't seen a single monster that was capable of instantly destroying multiple cities. Not even the meteorite was capable of that and the definition doesn't even imply that. Marugori had free reign to cause massive destruction and did nothing approaching a single multi-city level strike and he had no reason to hold back. Vaccine Man was looking to exterminate the human race and didn't even manage to one-shot a city and again, he had no reason not to try. The only thing we can go by is Genos' mountain busting feat and as you already said, using in-universe energy conservation makes no sense as the author has no regards for consistency when it comes to destruction.




> Consensus exists, that much hasn't changed


Yeah not so sure. I made a threat asking what was the minimum DC for a Dragon-level monster and this is what I got.:

Zen Chan: "There is no minimum dc"

OneSimpleAnime: "demon levels are at least city level, maybe town level as a lowball. Dragons are city+ to island level."

Night The Might: "there isn't one"

Toratorn: "HA doesn't judge monsters by their DC only, and it's not even the biggest factor. In fact, we see Monster Ratings even before most of the monsters even do anything, like in case with Gouketsu. HA is giving ratings out before monsters even do anything, correcting them when more information gets available."

I honestly don't think Dragon-level=Multi-City level DC. I think it's a monster that can cause massive damage to multiple cities over a very short amount of time. Quickly enough to destroy a city before the citizens can evacuate. You could have showed up and helped in that thread but you post once every two weeks so it died before anything could really be agreed upon.



> Probably had something to do with being such a glass cannon it was made of legit raddishes


So a glass-cannon melee fighter that is too frail and too slow to take on a single A-class, a B-class and a C-class is rated as Demon-level? Nevermind the fact if it had high DC like a Demon-level should, it shouldn't be way way stronger than it is durable. Otherwise how would a melee fighter even take the recoil of its own attacks as @Sablés pointed out in another thread? You can run with two conclusions:

A: HA fucked up and overrated that monster.
B: That monster was slow and frail but uber strong. Then you'd have to explain how a melee fighter would be Demon-level strength-wise but Wolf-level durability wise. It would crush its own body by striking anything.



> So, just another subterfuge monster
> 
> Which we have already established is acknowledged a blemish, but not criterion to throw the scale out the window


It really wasn't. Withered Sprout was actively lying and hiding its power. Kombu Infinity wasn't trying to fool anyone. It's just the HA fucking up.

For the record, I do think disaster-level rating can be used in support of an argument but it shouldn't be taken as the be-all end-all of a monster's actual strength. It's far from being flawless and although I think Marugori was an exception, he wasn't the only one.

Edit: And LMAO


*Spoiler*: __ 



They just off-paneled Gouketsu.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 26, 2017)

Juub said:


> Minimum DC/strength required to be rated at a certain disaster level See that's where we have a problem. Threat levels are left rather vague. Dragon is simply defined as "A threat endangering multiple cities" So it really doesn't imply being able to wipe out and entire city off the surface of the planet in an instant.



It's the only thing it can imply without arbitrarily assuming the monster just up an stops for no reason

There is no upper limit to damage over time, working under the notion it is introduces more questions than answers



> At first that's what I thought but then the meteorite which was classified as a Dragon-level threat would have destroyed only a single city and damaged the nearby ones. It still classified as a threat to multiple cities but was most definitely not a multi-city buster.



Again, ignoring the fact the real world has no commonly known or spouted criterion for what constitutes the minimum parameters of a city?

We are not privy to if such a thing exists in OPM either

The labels in that regards are much like the OBD arbitrary DC labels

Thus math does the speaking for us to determine our arbitrary guidelines



> So far we haven't seen a single monster that was capable of instantly destroying multiple cities.



You're being too literal

Genos shaving a pair of mountain tops over a small surface area possesses the energy to fulfill this criterion in the scenario it was directed in an explosion



> Not even the meteorite was capable of that and the definition doesn't even imply that.



Literally anything in the setting that can replicate hammerhead's minion's feat could be classed as a God level threat to humanity if criteria was for damage over time

And that's not even the lowest we can take it

The upper limit to a monster doing damage over time is limited by their mobility across planet an beyond depending on the setting



> Marugori had free reign to cause massive destruction and did nothing approaching a single multi-city level strike and he had no reason to hold back.



Indeed

Frankly, sans his deep multi hit crater?

His feats are garbage and fall well beneath other Demon/Dragon Class threats introduced into the series in terms of what he benefits from powerscaling wise

Because unlike most of them?

He doesn't get to tangle with Genos directly ever *shrugs*



> Vaccine Man was looking to exterminate the human race and didn't even manage to one-shot a city and again, he had no reason not to try. The only thing we can go by is Genos' mountain busting feat and as you already said, using in-universe energy conservation makes no sense as the author has no regards for consistency when it comes to destruction.



The AOE for Vaccine Man may not stretch that far, but the energy behind the blasts fit the criterion of what could do so over such and such and AOE *shrugs*

I think your disconnect with me is that I don't even really take the monster descriptions as possessing any real useful inherent meaning because the parameters are ill defined



> Yeah not so sure. I made a threat asking what was the minimum DC for a Dragon-level monster and this is what I got.:
> 
> Zen Chan: "There is no minimum dc"
> 
> ...



Kiddo's (Nighty) answer is actually on target given... again, Genos is kind of the measuring stick for shit starting as weak as that Gorilla Cyborg for eating one of his beam attacks

That thing was only some generic Demon level threat

Dragon?

Only feat on the scale of Dragon above Genos is the fucking meteor so far

And nothing but the meteor benefits because nothing else can play connect the dots with it

Tatsumaki and Golden Sperm being the weakest to benefit from anything else because of a bunch of fun connect the dots with Monster Garou



> I honestly don't think Dragon-level=Multi-City level DC.



That's great and all, but multi city level isn't even a thing

Nor has any dragon sans Golden Sperm and up done anything to warrant gigatons

Demon and up as weak as that fucking Gorilla fall into megatons to some arbitrary and varying extent

Outside that?

I can't say because OPM is no more generous with feats than any shonen ever



> I think it's a monster that can cause massive damage to multiple cities over a very short amount of time. Quickly enough to destroy a city before the citizens can evacuate. You could have showed up and helped in that thread but you post once every two weeks so it died before anything could really be agreed upon.



You can think that all you want, there is no logical sense to an over time scenario when anything sufficiently into the upper echelons of our modern military's non-nuclear tech might as well be considered God level by their metrics over time

I barely care enough to discuss this now

OPM is a generic shonen in terms of power presentation, series this straight forward are a dime a dozen and a dead horse isn't something I want to beat after going at this hobby as long as I have *shrugs*



> So a glass-cannon melee fighter that is too frail and too slow to take on a single A-class, a B-class and a C-class is rated as Demon-level? Nevermind the fact if it had high DC like a Demon-level should, it shouldn't be way way stronger than it is durable. Otherwise how would a melee fighter even take the recoil of its own attacks as @Sablés pointed out in another thread? You can run with two conclusions:



And that's nice for Sables

Problem?

For the life of me?

I don't recall us appealing to newton's third law to determine durability

Its why the concept of glass cannon even gets thrown around for a melee fighter



> It really wasn't. Withered Sprout was actively lying and hiding its power. Kombu Infinity wasn't trying to fool anyone. It's just the HA fucking up.



Did the HA even have much data on Kombu?



> For the record, I do think disaster-level rating can be used in support of an argument but it shouldn't be taken as the be-all end-all of a monster's actual strength. It's far from being flawless and although I think Marugori was an exception, he wasn't the only one.



My beef here is... why are we discussing this then?

Because there are very few examples in OPM where the ratings fall apart



> Edit: And LMAO
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



You were expecting otherwise?


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## Juub (May 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> There is no upper limit to damage over time, working under the notion it is introduces more questions than answers


So if I get it. Dragon and above >/=anything BOS Genos DC-wise? Demon is anything below that?



> And that's nice for Sables
> 
> Problem?
> 
> ...


I thought it was generally agreed here a melee fighter's durability had to be at least in the ballpark of their strength? It can be lower, a good bit lower in fact but not to the extent that said melee fighter would be turned to dust by an attack orders of magnitudes below what he can dish out...I had brought up that the Subterranean Monsters in Saitama's dream could have been glass-cannon but then it seemed the consensus was their durability couldn't be much lower than their strength.


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## Regicide (May 26, 2017)

I've seen people pretty commonly appeal to Newton's third law in regards to determining durability, myself included.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Juub (May 26, 2017)

Regicide said:


> I've seen people pretty commonly appeal to Newton's third law in regards to determining durability, myself included.


Seen it frequently too and I assumed it's generally how we operate here.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 26, 2017)

Juub said:


> So if I get it. Dragon and above >/=anything BOS Genos DC-wise? Demon is anything below that?



Remember this asshole?

Who ate this?

He's the absolute weakest thing that gets any kind of comparison to Genos at all, especially given this is the beginning of the series

Even Mosquito Bitch is higher on the food chain prior to powering up given she at least demonstrated she could tear him apart



> I thought it was generally agreed here a melee fighter's durability had to be at least in the ballpark of their strength? It can be lower, a good bit lower in fact but not to the extent that said melee fighter would be turned to dust by an attack orders of magnitudes below what he can dish out...I had brought up that the Subterranean Monsters in Saitama's dream could have been glass-cannon but then it seemed the consensus was their durability couldn't be much lower than their strength.



All I have to say is that this is news to me if so

You know how much more straight forward my efforts for some series would be if I bothered with this? 



Regicide said:


> I've seen people pretty commonly appeal to Newton's third law in regards to determining durability, myself included.



News to me

Wouldn't have so many hoops to jump through in some franchises if I was privy to such shit *shrugs*


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## Juub (May 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Remember this asshole?
> 
> Who ate this?
> 
> ...


Righto cool then. Makes sense if we scale Dragon-monsters off Genos based on his feat and use the HA definition to support that. Makes things far more simple too.





> All I have to say is that this is news to me if so
> 
> You know how much more straight forward my efforts for some series would be if I bothered with this?
> 
> ...


Yep seen it a lot actually. That's why if Macho Daikon was that frail, according to the way we operate here, it couldn't have been much above its own durability in terms of physical strength. It was slow enough to get tagged by a bunch of scrubs and had no particular ability like Withered Sprout. The thing posed literally no threat so I got no idea how it got its Demon-level rating. Hence why I said the HA likely fucked up and their ratings weren't the be-all and end-all of a monster's strength.


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