# Edo Itachi vs Edo Minato



## Luftwaffles (Jul 6, 2013)

Location: VotE
Distance: 50 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Frogs, Izanami

Edo Minato may only use 1 KB.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2013)

Could Minato warp Susano'o off of Itachi, or would that just take Itachi with it?


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2013)

So this basically comes down to which would land first, Minato's Shiki Fujin or Itachi's Sword of Totsuka.


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## Senjuclan (Jul 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> So this basically comes down to which would land first, Minato's Shiki Fujin or Itachi's Sword of Totsuka.



You are kidding, right? Minato is the fastest man ever and you think that totskuka thing will help?


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## trance (Jul 6, 2013)

Itachi's not tagging Minato.

It's a tie; Shiki Fujin seals them both.


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## ueharakk (Jul 6, 2013)

make this living minato, and itachi might squeeze out a win if he can somehow kill minato before he goes blind.

KCM Minato stomps.  He shunshins to susanoo, ports it away and has a clone shunshin blitz itachi.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 6, 2013)

Minato's speed will easily make it so itachi will not be able to hit him and while itachi can be tagged and hit at will, without a way to seal itachi, Minato cannot really win...

However, with the time space barrier plus the FTG, minato should be able to use the sword of totsuka against itachi by drawing the blade into his Kamui vortex, throw a kunai or already have itachi tagged then reverse summon the blade directly onto edo itachi, stabbing him, sealing him away in his own sword.

I like itachi and he is truly strong, but Minato is just way too much for him...


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2013)

Minato uses his clone, as we know the Genjutsu does not affect the clones therefore Itach's Genjutsu is
useless. We already know that Minato's clone can use FTG, so it pretty much enough to defeat itachi. 

Not to meantion Itachi's fans always put his Genjutsu into account against Minato, so the clone should
solve the problem. @.@


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## Kai (Jul 6, 2013)

Let's not pretend that this is as debatable as it used to be.

Minato has KCM and Kage Bunshin now. He is comfortably above Itachi's level.


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## Doge (Jul 6, 2013)

There is no possible way Sword of Totsuka is ever touching Minato.  Even before KCM he was able to react point blank to a V2 Raikage punch.


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You are kidding, right? Minato is the fastest man ever and you think that totskuka thing will help?



Indeed I am. Well when it comes to the picture that but the SoT vs SF, I was serious about. Which ever lands first would determine the winner which means either Itachi wins or its a draw.


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## Final Jutsu (Jul 6, 2013)

Minato tags and seals Itachi into a clone with Shishou Fuuin.  This match isn't very debatable anymore imo due to Minato having KCM and Bunshin use.




> Four Images Seal (四象封印, Shishou Fuuin)
> Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Yondaime Hokage
> 
> ...


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## Jagger (Jul 6, 2013)

This is basically a tie because they're both Edo zombies and Itachi hitting Minato is pretty unlikely.


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> why do this to itachi? datclone takes his head off.



You mean the head that will Regen back?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 6, 2013)

Minato has no way to deal with Edo Tensei aside from Shiki Fujin and Itachi has no way to deal with Edo Tensei aside from the Totsuka no Tsurugi.

As others have pointed out, Itachi won't be hitting Minato with the sealing sword in a million years (unless he gets extremely lucky, and by that I mean Minato gets careless and takes a complete blindside attack).

So it ends in a draw via Shiki Fujin.


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## Ƶero (Jul 6, 2013)

Minato has ample sealing Jutsus other than Shikki fuujin. It's his specialty. He should be able to seal edos.


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## ImSerious (Jul 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> You mean the head that will Regen back?



Minato's kunai have an automatic sealing jutsu imbedded in them.


''I hadn't told you that, had i? Itachi...''


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## Final Jutsu (Jul 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Minato has no way to deal with Edo Tensei aside from Shiki Fujin and Itachi has no way to deal with Edo Tensei aside from the Totsuka no Tsurugi.
> 
> As others have pointed out, Itachi won't be hitting Minato with the sealing sword in a million years (unless he gets extremely lucky, and by that I mean Minato gets careless and takes a complete blindside attack).
> 
> So it ends in a draw via Shiki Fujin.




Actually, the jutsu I linked would work.  It says it can seal evil spirits, or large enemies.  We saw it work on regular sized humans as well.  Minato used two of these to seal Kushina's chakra(not just her chakra, why two were used).


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Minato's kunai have an automatic sealing jutsu imbedded in them.
> 
> 
> ''I hadn't told you that, had i? Itachi...''



Can you show me where it was stated that said sealing jutsu is right for stopping movements or that it holds anything besides the seal for FTG or where it can stop an edo's regen?


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## tanman (Jul 6, 2013)

If Minato can use Shiki Fujin while grabbing onto Susano'o rather than Itachi's actual body, then he forces a tie that way.
If not, it's a stalemate.


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## ImSerious (Jul 6, 2013)

stay tuned for next chapters and you'll see for yourself.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 6, 2013)

Final Jutsu said:


> Actually, the jutsu I linked would work.  It says it can seal evil spirits, or large enemies.  We saw it work on regular sized humans as well.  Minato used two of these to seal Kushina's chakra(not just her chakra, why two were used).



In order to use the Shisho Fuin Jutsu, Minato must first extract the soul/chakra using Shiki Fujin, as he did with the Kyuubi.

He also needs a host on which to cast the Shishi Fuin Jutsu and bind that soul/chakra, a "Jinchuuriki" that he can seal his target into.

He doesn't have that and he's a dead man from using Shiki Fujin either way.


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## Final Jutsu (Jul 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> In order to use the Shisho Fuin Jutsu, Minato must first extract the soul/chakra using Shiki Fujin, as he did with the Kyuubi.
> 
> He also needs a host on which to cast the Shishi Fuin Jutsu and bind that soul/chakra, a "Jinchuuriki" that he can seal his target into.
> 
> He doesn't have that and he's a dead man from using Shiki Fujin either way.




No, he doesn't.  Hakke seal alone sealed Kushina's chakra.  The databook entry also says it can seal  evil spirits or large enemies.    Yes, the host he will seal Itachi to is his Kage bunshin, like I said. Hiruzen has proven such a method works.


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## Jagger (Jul 6, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> Minato has ample sealing Jutsus other than Shikki fuujin. It's his specialty. He should be able to seal edos.


What kind of logic is that one? There's no proof of this statement. Yes, he knows a lot of seals, but we can only reference those shown so far.


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## ueharakk (Jul 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> You mean the head that will Regen back?



Once Minato lands a kill on Itachi, he will tag itachi, and thus he'd be able to one-shot itachi any time he wants to.

Once he gets tired of killing itachi, he makes one of his toads place an FTG kunai over* the toad oil pond *and turns itachi into stone.

Or he *rams a bunch of stones/branches/debris into itachi* to keep him from regenerating. 

Or he ports itachi into a volcano, or he ports itachi into his own totsuka sword.


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Once Minato lands a kill on Itachi, he will tag itachi, and thus he'd be able to one-shot itachi any time he wants to.
> 
> Once he gets tired of killing itachi, he makes one of his toads place an FTG kunai over* the toad oil pond *and turns itachi into stone.
> 
> ...



Doesn't change the fact that his head will regen back.


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## Luftwaffles (Jul 6, 2013)

Is Bonly arguing for Minato? or against? WTF?


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## narutoish (Jul 6, 2013)

I still don't get why minato even gets KCM, it's not his power, that is like giving itachi koto and we know what happens then...

Also why restrict izanami? 

As for the match, the only thing minato can do is make it a tie, and I think people are exaggerating the speed difference between the two characters; minato won't be blitzing without FTG, and even then bee was able to react to it. As for their base speeds, itachi has been more impressive then minato.



Final Jutsu said:


> Minato tags and seals Itachi into a clone with Shishou Fuuin.  This match isn't very debatable anymore imo due to Minato having KCM and Bunshin use.



Don't make me laugh, read the op first, minato is restricted to one clone only, while itachi can make as many as he wants.



TorJaN said:


> Minato uses his clone, as we know the Genjutsu does not affect the clones therefore Itach's Genjutsu is
> useless. We already know that Minato's clone can use FTG, so it pretty much enough to defeat itachi.
> 
> Not to meantion Itachi's fans always put his Genjutsu into account against Minato, so the clone should
> solve the problem. @.@



Good point, though not good enough, while clone may negate genjutsu, it will be one minato clone vs several of itachi's, and itachi can just keep fighting with clones and minato will never know which is the real one since even sharingan could not keep up with his hand seals.

In my opinion itachi takes this more times then not with a combination of genjutsu and tostuka/amertersu.


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## ueharakk (Jul 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Doesn't change the fact that his head will regen back.



I though the underlying implication of your post was that minato had no way to defeat an edo tensei, thus why cutting his head off would be fruitless.


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Is Bonly arguing for Minato? *or *against? WTF?







ueharakk said:


> I though the underlying implication of your post was that minato had no way to defeat an edo tensei, thus why cutting his head off would be fruitless.



Nope, he said a clone cuts off the head and I just said it regens back, nothing more nothing less.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 6, 2013)

This battle looks like it's one of those never ending battles. Neither side can beat each other because they counter each other perfectly.



Ƶero said:


> With KCM it's not even debatable any more.



Last person to get Itachi's back ended up in the hospital for a week and the other was a genjutsu


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## animeguy91 (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm pretty sure since they both are edos only Itachi could possibly win , the only other possibility is a tie.

Honestly the only way Itachi's sword might hit is if Minato tries his death god seal.(It takes time)


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2013)

Base Minato against Edo Itachi has always been the debatable match. With the addition of KCM, Itachi will be fighting a blur unti his eyesight degenerates into nothing. 

I'm aware Minato has shown nothing of the sort, but it would truly baffle me if the supposed Fuinjutsu Master could not seal without taking his own life. Just a thought.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Base Minato against Edo Itachi has always been the debatable match. With the addition of KCM, Itachi will be fighting a blur *unti his eyesight degenerates into nothing*.
> 
> I'm aware Minato has shown nothing of the sort, but it would truly baffle me if the supposed Fuinjutsu Master could not seal without taking his own life. Just a thought.



Itachi's eyes, body, and chakra shouldn't be prone to such disgenerations given the fact that he is an _Edo_. His eyes are just as zombie like as the rest of him, everything restores itself during battle.


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## Rocky (Jul 6, 2013)

Stratandacesittinginatree said:


> .
> Only hardcore Minato fans would otherwise argue that Minato would more closely contend with Edo Itachi, who has limitless regeneration and stamina to spam Amaterasu, Susano'o with legendary weapons, clones, genjutsu, etc.




He would go blind incredibly quickly if he suited up in Heavy Armored Susano'o and tried to hit Minato by lighting the battlefield on fire.

Listing Itachi's arsenal doesn't do any good. Amaterasu is not a problem for Minato, and neither is Susano'o. Unless Itachi tricks him, Minato will continuously and consistently avoid both of those techniques from connecting. Both the Yata Mirror and Totsuka sword are...redundant against Minato. Meaning, a normal Susano'o could still block his Rasengan and theoretically kill him with any old sword.

KCM and Koto Amatsukami are different. They wouldn't be if Itachi didn't give the Crow to Naruto, but he did.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 6, 2013)

He can still go blind though just like he did in the manga.

Totsuka- Redirected
Amaterasu- Redirected

Everything Itachi has-Redirected


Minato 10/10 easily.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

Stratandacesittinginatree said:


> Edo Itachi's eyes had improved from what they were before death, and were presumably far more immune to the slow degradation brought on from the stress of Mangekyō jutsu. So just like Obito with Hashirama's DNA, Edo Itachi's eyes would _not_ degrade quickly, if at all. Any damage inflicted on an Edo body is immediately restored to the status quo.




Edo regeneration apparently isn't capable of healing blindness. His eyes would degrade at a normal pace, as we haven't been told they wouldn't. Obito is a completely different person and not comparable.



> Also, if Minato dodged Amaterasu or Susano'o, then why would Itachi continously and consistently use the techniques without trickery? That argument has always disturbed me.




HIs clones don't seem to have enough Chakra to activate the Mangekyou, so Itachi's trickery is severely limited. What would he do, wait for Minato to kill a clone and try and Amaterasu from a blindspot, only to hit Minato's clone?

Minato can even remove Itachi from Susano'o, or send Susano'o itself somewhere else like the middle of the ocean, or he could do that to Itachi, or both, etc. We've seen many times now that Susano'o & its user are not bound. If Gaara can use sand to remove Madara himself, Minato just has to get close and Susano'o goes bye bye. Now we have a Susano'o-less Itachi vs. Minato is close quarters.

When you go up against Space & Time Ninjutsu, you could have the strongest defense or offense there, and have it bypassed, removed, or in some cases used against you.  In the Battledome it's worse due to the BFR clause. If Itachi's Edo regeneration became a problem, Minato sends him to one of his tags scattered across the land and he won't be able to return in a reasonable amount of time, resulting in a loss. Is it out of character? Possibly, as Minato wouldn't use this technique to actually defeat someone, but keep in mind that "BFR" doesn't exist in the Manga. Nevertheless, it isn't anymore OOC than Itachi randomly going Mangekyou happy.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

Itachi did go blind in one eye as a result of Izanami. However, it was not restored by Edo Tensei's regeneration, which kind of forces one to conclude that blindness can still happen to Edo Sharingan users.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Jul 7, 2013)

I considered Edo Itachi vs Minato when he was alive pretty even. Now, with Edo Minato and his KCM I think this would be a stomp.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

Stratandacesittinginatree said:


> Actually, it is comparable. It's the EXACT definition of comparable, because the both have the Mangekyō Sharingan and stamina boosts. The difference is that Obito had Hashirama's DNA and Itachi has Edo benefits, but since Hashirama's DNA hasn't shown or been hyped to have regeneration or enedurance comparable to Edo zombies, then the comparison's validity stands.




Kamui seems special. Kakashi, who has no boosts whatsoever, has not had any eyesight deterioration that we know of, _period._

I'm not talking about the Mangekyou tiring him, I'm speaking of it blinding him which has nothing to do with stamina.





> Alright, a few things here. Kage Bunshin split chakra 50/50, so Itachi factually does have the chakra. If there is a limitation, then it's not one from chakra, you dig? Secondly, uh, _yeah_. That's kind of what Itachi does. Minato kills a clone, it explodes into crows, and then Itachi strikes from another angle. As for Minato attacking with a clone, I don't recall him ever doing that in base, and you were talking about base Minato when this all started, right?




Factually, the only certainty is that Itachi cannot utilize the Mangekyou while at 30% Chakra. Whether or not you believe he can do so at 50% is up to you to prove. Though he's never done it, so that will be difficult. 

Minato didn't attack with clones while alive, but what, are you under the impression that it's because of Chakra limitations? Even Wave Arc Kakashi could make multiple clones.



> You mean Gaara in the desert with assistance from Ōnoki against a v2 Susano'o without the Yata Mirror?




My point was that Susano'o and it's user are not one entity. Yata Mirror doesn't change that, and neither does the amount of armor the construct wears.




> Alive-Minato needed Gambabuta to hold Kurama down for a few seconds while he gathered the chakra to warp him. So what you meant was that Minato's going to have sit like a duck to warp Susano'o. That sounds problematic. And since Susano'o is just Itachi's chakra, it can be recreated.




Kurama is much bigger than Susano'o. The time it would take to gather the necessary Chakra to warp Susano'o would be minuscule, considering it was small to begin with when facing the larger Nine-Tails.

Speaking of Bunta & the Fox though, that little scene also proved something else. Minato never touched Kurama when he transported both of them out of the village. That gives Minato the feat of using Hiraishin without touch, and the ability to remove Itachi from Susano'o, rather than Susano'o from Itachi. 

It would take little effort for Minato to flank Susano'o, and remove Itachi from his defense by sending him to any placed seal Minato pleases. As a result, that leaves Itachi defenseless (like Madara was when he was removed from his Susano'o), and standing basically on top of a seal. Conclusion: Itachi is wide open to a Raikage-blitzing  FTG flank.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

Stratandacesittinginatree said:


> So just to be clear, Itachi can't use clones and Mangekyō jutsu because he was never shown to, _*but*_ Kakashi's Mangekyō is essentially an Eternal Mangekyō because it was never explicitly stated by Kakashi that his Mangekyō jutsu followed the rules of Mangekyō jutsu?




Do Itachi's clones have the feats of applying the Mangekyou in battle? That would be a no.

Has Kakashi been dealing with eye-sight problems? Another no.

What's not to get.

You could argue that Itachi has shown the Chakra capacity necessary to have a clone use the MS, but if 30% isn't enough, what makes 50?

We've seen this before, when Muu couldn't use Jinton while split in half, even though it's clear Muu can use Jinton more than twice.




> Oh, we're deriving _facts_ from Itachi's public actions and statements to Konoha now? Specifically, about why he couldn't use his deadliest jutsu against them? That seems legit!




This point would hold some merit if Itachi had't used the Mangekyou previously on Konoha shinobi.

We have a valid character statement claiming that Itachi cannot do something. It's unarguable. Therefore, he cannot do it unless he was lying, even though it was so blatantly obvious that his Shounten status had something to do with it.





> So because it wasn't explicitly shown, Minato can bypass what Minato himself said (as well as Kakashi) made Obito's space-time jutsu unique from Minato's own? That is, he doesn't use placed seals or markers?




You're starting not to make any sense. I can't explain it more clear. Of course Minato's Jutsu uses seals. Teleporting Itachi to one of those seals is what I originally said. You follow?


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## The Prodigy (Jul 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi did go blind in one eye as a result of Izanami. However, it was not restored by Edo Tensei's regeneration, which kind of forces one to conclude that blindness can still happen to Edo Sharingan users.



That's because Izanami, like Izanagi, seal the eye shut. They don't deteriorate the eye, but make it unusable. And even then, Izanami is one of those jutsu which has a specific after affect, almost like Muu's body split, or Nidaime Mizukage's Joki boy.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

Stratandacesittinginatree said:


> No, what you said was that Minato did so without touching Kurama (or Susano'o,) and yet there were several instances where he may have tagged Kurama previously. The limitations of Minato's space-time jutsu were stated very clearly many times: he needs tags. Specifically, two tags. So he's going to need to tag Susnao'o or Itachi before he can warp either.




You made that up. I hate when people make things up. Please do post me the scans stating something needs to be tagged to be warped. I'm damn sure neither Bijuudama was tagged. While you're at it, find me _any_ spot where Minato could've planted a seal on Kurama.




> And just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it didn't happen, because the limitations were clearly expressed elsewhere. That same logic also applies to Kakashi Mangekyō, as well as Izuna's Mangekyō. Besides, Kakashi being less vision-impaired can easily be attributed to the fact that he only has one Mangekyō. The brain uses the better eye.




It isn't that it's not shown. It isn't happening. If you want to use that "one eye" excuse, then you might as well concede the point about the Obito-Edo Itachi comparison. It wasn't because of Senju cells that his eyes stayed healthy. It was because he only had one Mangekyou, right bro?




			
				 Prodigy said:
			
		

> That's because Izanami, like Izanagi, seal the eye shut. They don't deteriorate the eye, but make it unusable. And even then, Izanami is one of those jutsu which has a specific after affect, almost like Muu's body split, or Nidaime Mizukage's Joki boy.




And......?

My statement is that Edo Tensei failed to heal blindness, which Izanami causes. Blind is blind. The blindness  that Izanami causes is not some sort of special rare blindness that cancels the effects of Edo Tensei. It's the same blindness that overusing the Mangekyou causes. They're just achieved in different ways.


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

Stratandacesittinginatree said:


> The barriers used to divert the beast bombs' trajectories is initiated by the tag that Minato himself is holding.
> 
> 
> 
> It still requires two tags.




You're point is nulled by the fact that Minato was able to move the Juubi's Bijuudama from one place to another without touching it. And the Nine-Tails, as I'm not giving you that point. 

And no, he didn't use the barrier to move the Juubi's bomb. We didn't see it. At all. The more important point is that the alliance didn't see it, despite Konoha shinobi being able to recognize it when it was actually used against Kurama.




> It could have been as early as rescuing Kushina, but could have occurred at practically any point they were in proximity.




You serious? His hands were full with carrying his half dead wife _away_ from the fox. He wasn't worrying about touching it. 




> Unlike Kakashi, Obito has been blatantly spamming his for over a decade and it's never gone white. Hence there needing to be an additional explanation for Obito, unlike for Kakashi who used his relatively sparingly up until this last fight.




Both Kakashi and Obito have used it enough by now for sight problems to begin, and yet there are none.



> Look at the state of Itachi's eyes before Edo Tensei.




Yes, and?


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## Rocky (Jul 7, 2013)

As are you. Very good actually.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And......?
> 
> My statement is that Edo Tensei failed to heal blindness, which Izanami causes. Blind is blind. The blindness  that Izanami causes is not some sort of special rare blindness that cancels the effects of Edo Tensei. It's the same blindness that overusing the Mangekyou causes. They're just achieved in different ways.



Actually, Itachi's eye wasn't shut but because the jutsu was still in affect after he caught Kabuto in Izanami, he appeared blind.... at least thats the theory, Izanami and Izanagi would shut the eye if that were the case, so it's more of a conditional thing then a process thing (if that makes sense)). One degrades the eye over a period of time from strain and excessive use, the other literally sacrifices the eye to gain the desired result of the user. 

They're different in that one literally shuts the eye and the other gradually fades the light of it. Literally shutting the eye is something that cant be changed because thats the mechanics of the jutsu, but healing the damage done to the body is different. Sealing is not and never has been the same as dying after all.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 7, 2013)

No Itachi explicitly said that you sacrifice the light of your eye.

Danzo was only shown to close those eyes due to they were blind and of no use...so him shutting them was to show them losing their so called "light". Its kind of what Tobirama was hinting at...if they abuse their forbidden power then they will lose any glimmer of good that is with them.

The only other time Itachi looked like that was when he lost his sight in the Sasuke fight. And I theorize Kabuto got his DNA from when Itachi was around the time he went to Konoha the first time we seen him.

But if he abuses his power he will go blind, just like when Mu split he couldn't use dust jutsu, because of the drawback from his jutsu over rode the advantage that Edo tensei gave.


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## narutoish (Jul 8, 2013)

As I mentioned before, minato can't win, he can tie at best, while itachi can actually seal him. Also I don't see why itachi can't just keep on spamming clones until he catches minato off guard. With his speed, intelligence and genjutsu skills, it shouldn't be that hard. I have yet to see someone explain how minato wins this more times then itachi.


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## lathia (Jul 8, 2013)

Poor Itachi. His complete skill set is set and done. Meanwhile, we have a Minato who keeps getting more feats. KCM alone puts him on a different tier, and the _only_ thing allowing Itachi to stay on such a high tier is his Edo-ness and lack of strain on his body. 

Why do this?


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## The Prodigy (Jul 8, 2013)

lathia said:


> Poor Itachi. His complete skill set is set and done. Meanwhile, we have a Minato who keeps getting more feats. KCM alone puts him on a different tier, and the _only_ thing allowing Itachi to stay on such a high tier is his Edo-ness and lack of strain on his body.
> 
> Why do this?



That's why we still have Sasuke and his future indirect Itachi feats 



IchLiebe said:


> No Itachi explicitly said that you sacrifice the light of your eye.
> 
> Danzo was only shown to close those eyes due to they were blind and of no use...so him shutting them was to show them losing their so called "light". Its kind of what Tobirama was hinting at...if they abuse their forbidden power then they will lose any glimmer of good that is with them.
> 
> ...



Eyes become shut because the jutsu is done. Izanami perhaps made Itachi's sharingan disappear because the jutsu was still and is actually still active in Kabuto. Like Obito's eye only shut close after Izanagi's use . Since Izanami decides fate instead of allowing you to change it perhaps its white because the fate of the said person hasn't yet been chosen?

MS over time makes the user lose their light, but if Itachi's edo his light would be restored because the use of MS causes gradual deterioration o the users eyes, and not for them to be shut closed like Izanagi/Izanami.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2013)

lathia said:


> Poor Itachi. His complete skill set is set and done.



You mean jutsu arsenal (which is what people said after chapter 394.) In terms of _actual_ skill sets, Itachi is far above Minato and will likely stay that way. Minato is not a man of eclectic talents and has never been portrayed as such.

In terms of hype and power, Itachi has plenty to keep him afloat. Whether it's accepted or how it's interpreted by the majority is irrelevant to the hype being present. Make no mistake: Itachi's hype is greater than Minato's hype.

It's just... more debatable.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 8, 2013)

It is a draw, Minato has no sealing tags. However with his base form, you can argue that he could handle whatever Itachi, base or Edo, could throw at him. 
However now we know Minato can actually use the Kage Bunshin no jutsu _and_ KCM. Minato in this state can easily take what Itachi throws at him. But the circumstances force him to use Shikifuujin to win.

If you give him a sealing tag, this is a stomp in favour of Minato. Unless you can argue that Minato can cleverly redirect Totsuka. 

By hype, you can assume Minato has the Uzumaki sealing jutsu which would secure him the match. Unless you want to argue that he can use the seal he used to seal Kurama? 

In short: despite the fact that as of now, Edo Minato would completely outmatch Edo Itachi... unless Minato is granted a sealing tag, or unless you plan to assert that he has other seals he can use, this fight ends in a draw due to the Shinigami seal.


----------



## narutoish (Jul 8, 2013)

lathia said:


> Poor Itachi. His complete skill set is set and done. Meanwhile, we have a Minato who keeps getting more feats. KCM alone puts him on a different tier, and the _only_ thing allowing Itachi to stay on such a high tier is his Edo-ness and lack of strain on his body.



The same way the only thing moving minato up is the chakra from kurama.

As for the rest, I don't care which tier u put minato on, so far I have seen you guys claiming minato is way stronger with KCM and on a different tier, but I have yet to see u explain how exactly he wins the match.  He can be tiers above itachi, but in the end does he have genjutsu resistance or sealing method (that won't kill him in process)?


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## Ƶero (Jul 8, 2013)

narutoish said:


> As I mentioned before, minato can't win, he can tie at best, while itachi can actually seal him. Also I don't see why itachi can't just keep on spamming clones until he catches minato off guard. With his speed, intelligence and genjutsu skills, it shouldn't be that hard. I have yet to see someone explain how minato wins this more times then itachi.



As I mentioned before, Itachi can't win, he always loses, while Minato can actually seal him. Also I don't see why Minato can't just keep on spamming Rasengan until he catches Itachi off guard. With his speed, intelligence and sealing skills, it shouldn't be that hard. I have yet to see someone explain how minato doesn't stomp itachi.


All. My. Rep.


----------



## narutoish (Jul 8, 2013)

But just to humor you, if itachi went for tostuka blitz, minato won't have time for seals.



Ƶero said:


> As I mentioned before, Itachi can't win, he always loses, while Minato can actually seal him. Also I don't see why Minato can't just keep on spamming Rasengan until he catches Itachi off guard. With his speed, intelligence and sealing skills, it shouldn't be that hard. I have yet to see someone explain how minato doesn't stomp itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> All. My. Rep.



Yes minato can seal him and die as well, congratulations 

Minato's speed can be countered by Susano, itachi can regenerate from rasengans, while minato has no counter to genjutsu, and itachi can spam clones while minato is limited to only one. Itachi has a sealing method that doesn't kill him.

Try agin when your have a convincing argument.


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You mean jutsu arsenal (which is what people said after chapter 394.) In terms of _actual_ skill sets, Itachi is far above Minato and will likely stay that way. Minato is not a man of eclectic talents and has never been portrayed as such.




Most Ninja operate heavily in only one field, and are relatively light in usage of techniques from other areas. Itachi in my opinion, is the most well rounded Ninja in the entire Manga, but he isn't the strongest. Not by a long shot.



> In terms of hype and power, Itachi has plenty to keep him afloat. Whether it's accepted or how it's interpreted by the majority is irrelevant to the hype being present. Make no mistake: Itachi's hype is greater than Minato's hype.
> 
> It's just... more debatable.




Itachi's been "hyped" to be a child prodigy, and an incredibly insightful boy. More intelligence based than anything else. The 4th Hokage has been labeled a legend since his introduction in_ Chapter 1_. Itachi's hype has never been up to that standard. In Part 1, Kakashi was more afraid of even Orochimaru (albeit wrongfully so). 

It was always Itachi's showings that gave him a high placement on most tier lists. His greatest hype is arguably being the single handed killer of his clan, which is hardly better than some mid-tier hype like Sasori's. 

There are other examples as well. Jiraiya was comfortable taking on both Itachi & Kisame, yet thought of Minato as unsurpassed. Minato seemed to invoke either massive respect or dreadful fear in everyone, while Itachi came off as a normal S-Class baddie. Minato's name definitely held more "ompf" than Itachi's.

Portrayal was what I originally though they were matched in, but after recent chapters of Minato seemingly effortlessly stopping Continent-Busters, Itachi falls short there now too.


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## lathia (Jul 8, 2013)

narutoish said:


> The same way the only thing moving minato up is the chakra from kurama.
> 
> As for the rest, I don't care which tier u put minato on, so far I have seen you guys claiming minato is way stronger with KCM and on a different tier, but I have yet to see u explain how exactly he wins the match.  He can be tiers above itachi, but in the end does he have genjutsu resistance or sealing method (that won't kill him in process)?



You're asking me if the sealing expert who effortlessly sealed Kurama while having an untrimmed nail right through his chest, and hair tangled all over his soul, can possibly have another "sealing method" for a much lesser being? 

C'mon kid..... The only thing Itachi has at the moment ahead of Minato is panel time. That is the only thing you can grasp on to. Everything else from hype to portrayal, he's a second at best.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The 4th Hokage has been labeled a legend since his introduction



The continuous theme of Itachi is that his greatness as a shinobi is under wraps. It's the sole reason Sasuke was so pissed off for a few hundred chapters. Itachi is a hero of equal stature, but one that worked purely from shadows.



Rocky said:


> Itachi's hype has never been up to that standard.




*Spoiler*: __ 













Rocky said:


> In Part 1, Kakashi was more afraid of even Orochimaru (albeit wrongfully so).



This supports what I said earlier, as does Jiriaya's inference of Itachi's power. The people who actually knew Itachi: Orochimaru, Kisame, Sasuke, Obito, Kabuto, Sasuke, etc. are the legitimate sources of hype for him.



Rocky said:


> It was always Itachi's showings that gave him a high placement on most tier lists.



Not really. Without Orochimaru, and to a lesser extent Kisame's, hype concerning Itachi's unrevealed power, the assumption would have been that base Jiraiya was stronger than Itachi, even with Kisame there as backup. 

In part two, it was Zetsu's hype that kept "healthy Itachi" afloat, as sick Itachi was so handicapped that the assumption was that he'd been badly injured before the fight started... implying that Itachi had been much deadlier prior. 




Rocky said:


> His greatest hype is arguably being the single handed killer of his clan



That's hardly his greatest hype, and it wasn't an ordinary clan like the Naras or Akamichis. The Uchiha alone were a sufficient threat that them going to war would cause the world's peace to destabilize.



Rocky said:


> Portrayal was what I originally though they were matched in, but after recent chapters of Minato seeming effortlessly stopping Continent-Busters, Itachi falls short there now too.



A continent-buster? Minato had an ability suited for the situation. On the flipside of the coin, Itachi has  abilities that would have been more useful against Kurama, and were more useful in having Kabuto release Edo Tensei.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2013)

Besides, 



The Totsuka Blade would work if a half-dead Obito sealed the Ten-Tails after being skewered by Kakashi (and Madara, who had sloppy-seconds.) So I think a "perfectly flawless" fūinjutsu offense would totes work.


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The continuous theme of Itachi is that his greatness as a shinobi is under wraps. It's the sole reason Sasuke was so pissed off for a few hundred chapters. Itachi is a hero of equal stature, but one that worked purely from shadows.




So he's sneaky...yes I agree but to what extend are you riding the "hidden power" train? How strong do you actually think Itachi is? I'm curious. 





> *Spoiler*: __




Hashirama was hyping Itachi's character, not his strength. If you want to use this to support a point, you'll have to take the stand that Hashirama believes Itachi is stronger than him. Good luck. Also, based on Shodai's facial expressions, he may not have been as serious as we believe. He was winking and had a huge smile, similar to the facade I put on when I try and cheer up a depressed little kid.

I forgot about Zetsu, so I'll give you that. However, being "invincible" is only hype up to the standards of Nagato's Pain Rikudou, right? 




> This supports what I said earlier, as does Jiriaya's inference of Itachi's power. The people who actually knew Itachi: Orochimaru, Kisame, Sasuke, Obito, Kabuto, Sasuke, etc. are the legitimate sources of hype for him.





Orochimaru considered taking Itachi's body an option up until they day he was sealed. I don't think he considered him unsurpassable.  
It appears that Kisame didn't see Itachi as much more powerful than Jiraiya. He didn't think retreat was necessary, but he wasn't sure of the outcome. 
Obito called Itachi a failure to Sasuke's face.  This is the guy who took on Bijuu Mode Naruto. I highly doubt he considered himself inferior to Itachi. Obito didn't hype him but for his clever tactics.
Kabuto was confident in beating Itachi. If you're reffering to the "another level from the others" thing, it was in reference to (again) Itachi's tactics. Kabuto didn't consdier Itachi significantly above Nagato, let alone Madara.
Sasuke considered his brother a hero for dedicating his life to Konoha, correct? What "power-level" hype are you speaking of?




> In part two, it was Zetsu's hype that kept "healthy Itachi" afloat, as sick Itachi was so handicapped that the assumption was that he'd been badly injured before the fight started... implying that Itachi had been much deadlier prior.




Of course Itachi was. Even Hebi Sasuke was shitting all over him in pretty much everything after the Tsukuyomi battle. Zetsu just tells us Itachi should've been better than what we saw, and I agree with him, as Sasuke was tagging Itachi with mere Shuriken feints.




> That's hardly his greatest hype, and it wasn't an ordinary clan like the Naras or Akamichis. The Uchiha alone were a sufficient threat that them going to war would cause the world's peace to destabilize.




Yeah and Sasori soloed a village. Murdering a bunch of high-class fodder in their sleep doesn't merit the same kind of praise as saving Konoha from the Nine-Tails itself.




> continent-buster? Minato had an ability suited for the situation. On the flipside of the coin, Itachi has  abilities that would have been more useful against Kurama, and were more useful in having Kabuto release Edo Tensei.




I don't think you quite get the concept of portrayal. 

Hashirama had the abilities suited for dealing with Vote Madara, but not for stopping Edo Tensei. But I don't care. I know which is the more impressive feat x100.

Itachi had terrible abilities for dealing with the fox.  He wouldn't even have been able to stop its first Bijuudama. Your only argument there is the sword of Totsuka, but the things the size of Kurama's toe. And it was stated that Kurama's Chakra was too great to be sealed away in one spot....so literally Totsuka has nothing going for it other than "lol Totsuka > all". Nobody can prove whether or not the sword can even pierce it. You know, Itachi probably wouldn't even be able to deal with Obito in time, so it wouldn't matter.

Minato stopped an attack that was about to game the allaince. Even their oh so great Shinobi Alliance no Jutsu failed to do anything. Then Minato comes in and with a Kunai to the ground the threat is gone. Itachi doesn't have that kind of effortless portrayal. He had to go through hell just to subdue Kabuto.


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## Rocky (Jul 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The Totsuka Blade would work if a half-dead Obito sealed the Ten-Tails after being skewered by Kakashi (and Madara, who had sloppy-seconds.) So I think a "perfectly flawless" fūinjutsu offense would totes work.



Well we don't know what seal Obito used. 

And Jinchuriki are different of course. They are but temporary seals. I think what Kishi meant is that no permanent seal is going to work on one of Rikudou's creations meant to maintain balance in the world.


Minato said that Kurama's power was too great to seal away despite knowing what a Jinchuriki is, so I'm listening to those words. Nothing can seal it's power for good.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 8, 2013)

MS grants Uchiha the ability to tame Kyuubi like a pet


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## narutoish (Jul 8, 2013)

lathia said:


> You're asking me if the sealing expert who effortlessly sealed Kurama while having an untrimmed nail right through his chest, and hair tangled all over his soul, can possibly have another "sealing method" for a much lesser being?



First of all minato was never a sealing expert, besides he never showed any other sealing tech. Now I know that it's plausible at he might have another one, but ( as much as I hate it) in battle dome we only use feats. I could say that itachi has izanagi, doesn't make it true.



> C'mon kid..... The only thing Itachi has at the moment ahead of Minato is panel time. That is the only thing you can grasp on to. Everything else from hype to portrayal, he's a second at best.



In itachi's fights, he was never going for the kill, Kishi always held him back, while the opposite has been true for minato, so the panel time argument goes down. And I am not grasping on anything, it's you who has yet to show how minato actually wins, especially if itachi decides to spam clones.

As for hype, minato has more hype because he was a hero to the village, and while itachi was a greater hero then him, no one knew about His sacrifice to the village. No one fought itachi after he left the village for a long time, so who would spread the hype? That is like saying pain or Madara are inferior to minato because they have less hype. Also as I mentioned he was a hero who saved the village so it's only fair that people will hype him.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama was hyping Itachi's character.



The word was shinobi, not character.



Rocky said:


> I forgot about Zetsu, so I'll give you that. However, being "invincible" is only hype up to the standards of Nagato's Pain Rikudou, right?



Like Itachi, the true limits of Nagato's Pain were never tested.



Rocky said:


> Orochimaru considered taking Itachi's body an option up until they day he was sealed. I don't think he considered him unsurpassable.



Orochimaru has much, much more knowledge than anybody that's ever hyped Minato. I want to emphasize that A and Jiriaya are troglodyte-fucktards in comparison. So keep that in mind when lining up their opinions.

Anyway, Orochimaru originally believed that Itachi's body held the most potential to unlock all ninjutsu. It was later stated that he deflected to Sasuke because he knew Itachi was unattainable to him.

It was also shown that Orochimaru would sooner attack Konoha than he would confront Itachi again. If Edo Tensei Hokages, albeit weakened, didn't boost his confidence enough then that says enough of his opinion about Itachi.



Rocky said:


> It appears that Kisame didn't see Itachi as much more powerful than Jiraiya. He didn't think retreat was necessary, but he wasn't sure of the outcome.



You should go look again. Kisame, after earlier telling Itachi not to use his Mangekyō anymore, was confused as to why Itachi was retreating. That original statement was about Kurama, as the viz translation makes clear.



Rocky said:


> Obito called Itachi a failure to Sasuke's face.



He also called it a "last ditch effort to kill him," implying that Itachi had tried before without consequence. We know Obito steered clear of Akatsuki up until just before Itachi chose to die, and he didn't step out of line until then.

Obito went on to say that Itachi had been the only thing standing in his way, and that Itachi certainly would have killed him if he hadn't protected his secrets―in this case Kamui―from _even him_. By keeping his distance.

No? Then why is it that in the movie Kishimoto wrote, he had Obito retreat from dream-world Itachi just like I've postulated? Obito didn't even hang around his own organization when Itachi was skulking about.

As for the fail-safe, you do realize that Itachi's trap only failed because Sasuke shifted his eye and hit Obito's shoulder, right? In other words: dumb luck on Obito's part. Go ahead, think about it.

Do you deny that Amaterasu spawns where an individual is looking? Or that Itachi designed the trap to activate upon seeing Obito's eye? Or that Obito lacked the reflexes to dodge? So yeah. Obito talked the talk.



Rocky said:


> Kabuto was confident in beating Itachi. If you're reffering to the "another level from the others" thing, it was in reference to (again) Itachi's tactics. Kabuto didn't consdier Itachi significantly above Nagato, let alone Madara.



Earlier, I argued that Orochimaru believed [healthy, obviously] Itachi to have the perfect body. Kabuto wraps that up by copiously hyping Itachi's mind. In these aspects, he was above others and "a genius that had everything."

As for Kabuto being confident against Itachi, that's hardly the case... he was confident that Itachi would not kill him, but not because he couldn't. He reminded him several times about Edo Tensei, and Itachi in turn reminded Sasuke. 

The entire conflict didn't really qualify as a fight, because the goal was never to defeat Kabuto, but to defeat Edo Tensei. Neither brother used their best Susano'o or an offensive Amaterasu nor could they use genjutsu. 



Rocky said:


> Sasuke considered his brother a hero for dedicating his life to Konoha, correct? What "power-level" hype are you speaking of?



I didn't say all the hype was about power levels, but Sasuke did consider his brother a perfect ninja. Danzō, in turn, implied that Itachi close to perfect, having only ever made one mistake: Sasuke.



Rocky said:


> Even Hebi Sasuke was shitting all over him in pretty much everything after the Tsukuyomi battle.



Sasuke was in a unique position to counter Itachi's abilities, as he had both knowledge and preparation from everything to Itachi's shuriken skill to Amaterasu. No other ninja at the time had such tools against even sick Itachi.

Hebi Sasuke was an absolute top tier in genjutsu defense, reflexes, speed, and he still shames most of Narutoverse in that holistic sense. Then it was revealed that Itachi planned every detail of the fight beforehand.



Rocky said:


> Yeah and Sasori soloed a village.



Oh really? Which village? Sunagakure? Or a smaller village like Gatō was bullying?  Because Sasori never so much as blipped on any major village's radar as far as we know, and any lesser village just isn't comparable.



Rocky said:


> Murdering a bunch of high-class fodder in their sleep doesn't merit the same kind of praise as saving Konoha from the Nine-Tails itself.



The clan was blamed for killing Minato with the village supporting him, so that's some serious fodder, right? And nothing indicates that the Uchiha were sleeping when Itachi killed him, plus Obito/Itachi say he used Mangekyō jutsu.




Rocky said:


> I don't think you quite get the concept of portrayal.



If I knew you were going to get snarky I wouldn't have responded as much as I did.


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## Rocky (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The word was shinobi, not character.




So are you taking the stance that Itachi is superior to Hashirama in combat? Itachi, in my mind, is one of the best Ninja to exist. Much better than guys like Naruto and Obito etc...but I don't think he's close to the strongest. Kind of similar to how Bardock was a great Saiyan and Gohan was a terrible one.





> Like Itachi, the true limits of Nagato's Pain were never tested.




Technically neither were Minato's.




> Orochimaru has much, much more knowledge than anybody that's ever hyped Minato. I want to emphasize that A and Jiriaya are troglodyte-fucktards in comparison. So keep that in mind when lining up their opinions.




If you think Minato's Sensei had less knowledge on him that Orochimaru did on his Uchiha dream boy, I'm going to have to hear some more.




> You should go look again. Kisame, after earlier telling Itachi not to use his Mangekyō anymore, was confused as to why Itachi was retreating. That original statement was about Kurama, as the viz translation makes clear.




I believe you. I'll concede the point. Though Itachi said himself the best outcome was mutual death. Was it a lie? Probably, but no one knows. By showings I would root for Itachi, but that's not what we're talking about here.




> Obito went on to say that Itachi had been the only thing standing in his way, and that Itachi certainly would have killed him if he hadn't protected his secrets―in this case Kamui―from _even him_. By keeping his distance.




Obito's secret was Izanagi and that couldn't be more obvious. It was how he dealt with Amaterasu. If he hand't kept the secret (Izanagi) he'd be dead (from Itachi's trap). That's how I understood it based on the timing of Obito's words.

I was hoping you weren't going to bring up the movie.  I can't answer that, but I'll admit it left me skeptical to the whole Kamui-Amaterasu interaction. Honestly, I can't see Obito falling to Itachi after dancing with that power-team. Naruto alone is worth like 10 Kage level guys, and then Bee..Gai...Kakashi? Obito _fought_ that. Itachi beating him just sounds sketchy. 




> The entire conflict didn't really qualify as a fight, because the goal was never to defeat Kabuto, but to defeat Edo Tensei. Neither brother used their best Susano'o or an offensive Amaterasu nor could they use genjutsu.




You're right.




> I didn't say all the hype was about power levels, but Sasuke did consider his brother a perfect ninja. Danzō, in turn, implied that Itachi close to perfect, having only ever made one mistake: Sasuke.




Itachi is damn near perfect. But that doesn't make him the strongest, or even as strong as Minato (who is also damn near perfect anyway).




> Hebi Sasuke was an absolute top tier in genjutsu defense, reflexes, speed, and he still shames most of Narutoverse in that holistic sense. Then it was revealed that Itachi planned every detail of the fight beforehand.




Top-tier in speed? Nah nah nah, that belongs to Ei, Naruto, Gai...etc. Sasuke falls short, and so does Itachi himself. I consider Hebi Sasuke a solid Mid-Tier, but nothing healthy Itachi should have trouble with.




> Oh really? Which village? Sunagakure? Or a smaller village like Gatō was bullying?  Because Sasori never so much as blipped on any major village's radar as far as we know, and any lesser village just isn't comparable.




A large quantity of fooder.




> The clan was blamed for killing Minato with the village supporting him, so that's some serious fodder, right? And nothing indicates that the Uchiha were sleeping when Itachi killed him, plus Obito/Itachi say he used Mangekyō jutsu.




The clan didn't kill Minato, it was a surprise attack in the middle of the night IIRC, and of course he used the Mangekyou. What was he gonna do, kill all of them with Genjutsu & Fire Balls?





> If I knew you were going to get snarky I wouldn't have responded as much as I did.





I didn't mean to offend.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So are you taking the stance that Itachi is superior to Hashirama in combat?



I take the stance that Itachi is a better shinobi, as it says. And in the end, Hashirama beat Madara with a clone feint. Not everything has to come down to who has the most stamina to pump into jutsu.



Rocky said:


> Technically neither were Minato's.



Minato was never called invincible though. 



Rocky said:


> If you think Minato's Sensei had less knowledge on him that Orochimaru did on his Uchiha dream boy, I'm going to have to hear some more.



No, I was saying Orochimaru had more knowledge of top tiers. The strongest ninja Jiriaya knew about was probably himself, and the same likely goes for A. Orochimaru, on the other hand, knew of much bigger fish.



Rocky said:


> Obito's secret was Izanagi and that couldn't be more obvious. It was how he dealt with Amaterasu.



Izanagi doesn't work that way, but also read this:



			
				Databook said:
			
		

> No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. is ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air.



This is clearly describing Kamui, not Izanagi. It was because Sasuke moved his eye, and hit Obito's shoulder - his Zetsu shoulder. White Zetsu parts are presumably easily replaced when damaged.

And as we saw when Obito fought Torune and Fu, he can detach parts freely and without consequence. If Sasuke had just kept his eye steady instead of flinching like a bitch, Obito would've been down for the count.  



Rocky said:


> I was hoping you weren't going to bring up the movie.  I can't answer that, but I'll admit it left me skeptical to the whole Kamui-Amaterasu interaction.



Here's how I see it: Obito said that Itachi never ceased to amaze him. Combine that with jutsu as deadly and fast as Amaterasu... and Obito thought Itachi killing him was highly possible. So he steered clear.



Rocky said:


> Top-tier? Nah nah nah, that belongs to Ei, Naruto, Gai...etc. Sasuke falls short, and so does Itachi himself. I consider Hebi Sasuke a solid Mid-Tier, but nothing healthy Itachi should have trouble with.



I was referring to Hebi Sasuke _at the time_, and also was referring to the abilities in a holistic sense. A and Gai, for instance, do not have the same sort of genjutsu-defense that Hebi Sasuke does.



Rocky said:


> A large quantity of fooder.



Base Sasuke effortlessly soloed a similar quantity without actually spilling their blood and Orochimaru told him he'd never be able to beat Itachi that way. So Sasori using his best trick to do so isn't a huge hype-factor for me.



Rocky said:


> The clan didn't kill Minato, it was a surprise attack in the middle of the night IIRC, and of course he used the Mangekyou. What was he gonna do, kill all of them with Genjutsu & Fire Balls?



And shuriken! But yeah. So if he said he used Susano'o, then drop all this about them being sleeping fodder. The Uchiha clan was hyped as the pride of Konoha, and Sasuke didn't think Itach could do it even with the Mangekyō.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 9, 2013)

Glad to see you're back, Strategoob


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> [*]Obito called Itachi a failure to Sasuke's face.  This is the guy who took on Bijuu Mode Naruto. I highly doubt he considered himself inferior to Itachi. Obito didn't hype him but for his clever tactics.



Obito wasn't aware of Itachi's Koto Plan to brainwash Sasuke though, which was Itachi's ace up his sleeve.

He thought the Amaterasu trap was Itachi's last trick. He was mistaken, therefore his statement was premature.



Strategoob said:


> Izanagi doesn't work that way, but also read this:
> 
> 
> 
> This is clearly describing Kamui, not Izanagi. It was because Sasuke moved his eye, and hit Obito's shoulder - his Zetsu shoulder. White Zetsu parts are presumably easily replaced when damaged.




Is that Databook or Wiki ?
Because I don't remember anything like that bit in the databook. Unless the translators back in the day ignored that part.


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## Rain (Jul 9, 2013)

Being called invincible by the legendary Uchiha Madara puts all Minato's hype to shame.


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## ImSerious (Jul 9, 2013)

Being called unparalleled by the legendary Kishimoto puts all Itachi's hype to shame.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Generally any portrayal argument which relies on interpreting it out of context generally fails. For example, Zetsu with Madara's will only said Yata and Totsuka make an invincible combo.

If you really want to go by overall portrayal, then we've got no choice but to hand the match over to Minato, for very obvious reasons. However I imagine we'll mostly use feats alongside portrayal, not rely on one because the other doesn't support the stance we wish to take.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 9, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Being called unparalleled by the legendary Kishimoto puts all Itachi's hype to shame.



Well, Kishi also said he'd rather be like Minato than Itachi, because Itachi's too perfect.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 9, 2013)

There was once a god, and a man.

The man thought that he was above god because of the tools he had. God showed him that tools don't overcome the mass difference of their physical abilities and knowledge....Minato proceeded to stomp Itachi.


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## ImSerious (Jul 9, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Well, Kishi also said he'd rather be like Minato than Itachi, because Itachi's too perfect.



Yeah yeah. Ive heard this one before and evrytime i asked for proof i didnt see shit.

I assume you do have some proof of this statement?


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## The Prodigy (Jul 9, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> There was once a god, and a man.
> 
> The man thought that he was above god because of the tools he had. God showed him that tools don't overcome the mass difference of their physical abilities and knowledge....Minato proceeded to stomp Itachi.



Clever 

but that moment you realize Itachi died for the sins of the world, resurrected, and ascended back into heaven and one day will return again


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## IchLiebe (Jul 9, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Clever
> 
> but that moment you realize Itachi died for the sins of the world, resurrected, and ascended back into heaven and one day will return again



Oh you mean like how Minato died to save his son, his village, and ultimately the world and then came back to life to save the alliance from great destruction....again.


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## Kai (Jul 9, 2013)

Rain said:


> Being called invincible by the legendary Uchiha Madara puts all Minato's hype to shame.


So Itachi and Madara called each other invincible?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> So Itachi and Madara called each other invincible?



The Uchiha clan invented circlejerking no jutsu.



ImSerious said:


> Being called unparalleled by the legendary Kishimoto puts all Itachi's hype to shame.



That's echoing Jiriaya's hype, as he used the same adjective in chapter 158. However, the instance you are referring to wasn't written by Kishi, and didn't show up in the printed volumes.


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## Shisko (Jul 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You are kidding, right? Minato is the fastest man ever and you think that totskuka thing will help?



Although I am with you, but Minato is not the fastest anymore. That would go to Naruto.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 9, 2013)

Shisko said:


> Although I am with you, but Minato is not the fastest anymore. That would go to Naruto.



Are you slow because this^^^makes so little sense it makes my question a valid one...Not an insult!

Naruto is NOT THAT FAST!! Show me a single panel of him even doing anything that Minato can do at base, much less with the FTG!!
And do not bring up naruto using a freaking full speed head start to perceive raikage's movements he otherwise could not of if he was standing still and not running like a bitch...

Naruto's full speed is just V1 raikage's raiton armour full speed, deal with it..

And even if naruto could move at the speed of freaking light with a shushin, Minato is still way way faster able to move any distance Literally INSTANTANEOUSLY... Not physical speed could even equal the FTG's speed... SO just quit being slow and claiming something that make so little since I am forced to question your intelligence...

Back on topic:
I am a big itachi fan, but I do not know how Itachi could possibly beat minato other then by using Koto to mind control him into giving up or killing himself... and due to Minato's constant movement using the FTG to overwhelm his enemies, how could eye contact even be made to apply Kotoamatsukami...

Coupled with minato's ability to reverse summon away susanoo and the spiritual equipments or itachi himself leaving itachi completely open for a blitz by a clone or the real Minato who left a Kunai seal to immediately return...
ABle to dodge amaterasu so very easily with the FTG, liely even a shushin judging by his physical speed and reactions against raikage's full speed shushin in v2 raiton armour...
and tsukuyomi or any genjutsu is going to be hard to alnd when mInato is constantly moving around with the FTG...
and even if minato is caught with one, he can reverse summon himself to another location to break the hold itachi has on his chakra and nervous system which will break the genjutsu and allow Minato to be unharmed... Since Minato can activate the FTG by simply focusing on a seal to reverse summon him...

So I do not know who itachi could win, even as an edo with the ability to spam MS like a EMS especially susanoo and clones to use the same strategy to overwhelm that madara used on the Gokage before...
Minato's speed, reflexes, time space jutsu, intelligence/analytical ability, jutsu/kage bsuhin and summon of all levels and technical skills are just too effective...


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 9, 2013)

Orochimaru's hype can suck on these asian nuts. He only wants Itachi/Sasuke because of their Sharingan, which is a quick way to unlock all Ninjutsu, which is what Oro wanted. If he wanted to be the fastest, he would have went to Minato. What is credible, is that Itachi fodderized him in two secs. 

Colgate smile blinds him then bamflash and neck slice. GG.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

> Naruto is NOT THAT FAST!! Show me a single panel of him even doing anything that Minato can do at base, much less with the FTG!!



He dodged a V2 A with KCM, something Minato required Hiraishin to do. Assumingly, BM Naruto should be even faster.

Though you can argue that Minato's speed in KCM =/> BM Naruto's speed. Either way, more than enough speed to win the match, imo.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Orochimaru's hype can suck on these asian nuts. He only wants Itachi/Sasuke because of their Sharingan, which is a quick way to unlock all Ninjutsu, which is what Oro wanted. If he wanted to be the fastest, he would have went to Minato.



Not quite. The Sharingan itself wasn't the perogative, but an Uchiha body, because a young Uchiha male holds the potential to unlock the Rinnegan, or the "secret to ninjutsu." Basically, to be like old Madara, but younger.

Minato's speed has more to do with his mastery of specific techniques, such as body flicker and Hiraishin, than an innate trait. It was stated that his synaptic speed was equal to base A, and base Itachi's likely right there too with a 5/5.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Not quite. The Sharingan itself wasn't the perogative, but an Uchiha body, because a young Uchiha male holds the potential to unlock the Rinnegan, or the "secret to ninjutsu."



But it's still the same concept man. Alright, so they have potential to unlock the Rinnegan, giving them access to the secrets of Ninjutsu. If he wanted to be the quickest, he'd go for Minato. If he wanted to use bugs, he'd of gone to Shino. If he wanted to have Wood release, he'd of gone for Hashirama (hypothetically) etc.. same concept.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 9, 2013)

A's synapses equal to Minato's? And base A? That was thrown out the window when Minato was half a second from shanking him in the back when he was in V2.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> A's synapses equal to Minato's? And base A? That was thrown out the window when Minato was half a second from shanking him in the back when he was in V2.



Minato using an instant jutsu twice at the last moment doesn't mean his reflexes are equal to cloaked A, who ran a large distance before Minato did so. It's like me blinking twice before an Olympic sprinter reaches me.

Moreover, "in v2" isn't the proper phrasing because it's not a mode. He _used_ his best shunshin, and he almost certainly stopped as he intended to strike, just as he did against Sasuke when using the jutsu. Minato capitalized.

Not to mention there's an implicit assumption that A didn't improve his shunshin jutsu over the next twenty years. Whether his best shunshin twenty years ago was the exact speed of his "v2" shunshin against Sauce is debatable.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 9, 2013)

I am also dubious that Shi was completely accurate, but Minato is also a high level sensor. That could give him a boost in predicting his opponent's attacks.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I am also dubious that Shi was completely accurate, but Minato is also a high level sensor. That could give him a boost in predicting his opponent's attacks.



I'm not sure if sensing Kurama's chakra (fused with Naruto's chakra) really a sensing feat? Many non-sensors had been shown to do so, such as Kakashi, Gai, Hiruzen, Itachi, etc. That amount of chakra is overwhelming.

I'm skeptical because there are several instances where it's indicated that Minato is not a sensor, such as when Obito killed the many ANBU guarding Kushina and Minato didn't notice until Obito had killed people in the same room.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I'm skeptical because there are several instances where it's indicated that Minato is not a sensor, such as when Obito killed the many ANBU guarding Kushina and Minato didn't notice until Obito had killed people in the same room.



Outside battle, sensors don't constantly sense.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Outside battle, sensors don't constantly sense.



I remember that page, but unlike Tobirama, Minato was using chakra:


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not sure if sensing Kurama's chakra (fused with Naruto's chakra) really a sensing feat? Many non-sensors had been shown to do so, such as Kakashi, Gai, Hiruzen, Itachi, etc. That amount of chakra is overwhelming.



Never has it been done from this distance. Unless you think the battle is going on right outside Konoha. He noticed it at the same time Hasharima and Tobirama, both sensors, noticed it. Coincidence? He was not only able to locate Kurama's chakra, but Naruto's chakra as well, which would be dwarfed by Kurama's chakra. 


> I'm skeptical because there are several instances where it's indicated that Minato is not a sensor, such as when Obito killed the many ANBU guarding Kushina and Minato didn't notice until Obito had killed people in the same room



Minato wasn't molding chakra, was he? You linked a panel of him sensing Kurama, but the point you just made was that Kurama's chakra was easily detected! From a great distance away, no, but from right next to where the Kurama was? Of course Minato would sense that. Plus, Obito is a sneaky bastard who has a partial Zetsu body (who has long been able to avoid detection by sensors, as people at the summit noted). Plus, he was completely concentrating on what was happening with Kushina. Even Tobirama, who is a very proficient sensor, and who was definitely molding chakra since he revved up his chakra to frighten Sasuke and was threatening to leave and collapsing the wall with his touch, didn't notice Orochimaru's chakras until he paid attention.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

I !


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Minato using an instant jutsu twice at the last moment doesn't mean his reflexes are equal to cloaked A, who ran a large distance before Minato did so. It's like me blinking twice before an Olympic sprinter reaches me.
> 
> Moreover, "in v2" isn't the proper phrasing because it's not a mode. He _used_ his best shunshin, and he almost certainly stopped as he intended to strike, just as he did against Sasuke when using the jutsu. Minato capitalized.
> 
> Not to mention there's an implicit assumption that A didn't improve his shunshin jutsu over the next twenty years. Whether his best shunshin twenty years ago was the exact speed of his "v2" shunshin against Sauce is debatable.



The fact that Minato had time to react to Ay's fastest punch *on his first time seeing it* goes to show how instantaneous Mr. Aryan's reflexes are. Not just that, but look at how calm and collected Minato was after Ay's second attempt [X]. Adjusting to his speed after the first go says a lot. Another thing is, Minato's never actually been hit in battle, so by what basis prove's Ay's reflexes > Minato's?

Nitpicking? Come on bro, you know what I mean. It's still his fastest punch, something he used on Minato.

And that's all it'll ever be, an assumption. Ay made it clear who's faster [X], and having a tech like FTG is useless against someone like Ay if you don't have the reflexes to actually port away. Not to mention, he explicity stated only two people ever dodged his top speed [X], and we know the other is Minato. Of course it was his top speed.


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## Rocky (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I take the stance that Itachi is a better shinobi, as it says. And in the end, Hashirama beat Madara with a clone feint. Not everything has to come down to who has the most stamina to pump into jutsu



Hashirama was being extremely modest in his praise for Itachi, and anyone that interacts with humans can see it. The smile, the wink, the _topic of conversation....?_ 

And, 95% of the time, overwhelming firepower is going to destroy excellent basic skills in actual combat. Have Itachi fight the mindless Ten-Tails. You'll see what I mean. 




> No, I was saying Orochimaru had more knowledge of top tiers. The strongest ninja Jiriaya knew about was probably himself, and the same likely goes for A. Orochimaru, on the other hand, knew of much bigger fish.




Probably? You personally know them? Any support to back up this claim? 

The idea that Jiraiya wouldn't know of the first two Hokage of his village doesn't seem very likely to me.



> Izanagi doesn't work that way, but also read this:




Could you post the actual scan so I know this is legit. I've never seen this.




> And as we saw when Obito fought Torune and Fu, he can detach parts freely and without consequence. If Sasuke had just kept his eye steady instead of flinching like a bitch, Obito would've been down for the count.




Obito still had his arm after Amaterasu was dealt with. He didn't rip it off. Is your argument that he phased through the flames?




> Here's how I see it: Obito said that Itachi never ceased to amaze him. Combine that with jutsu as deadly and fast as Amaterasu... and Obito thought Itachi killing him was highly possible. So he steered clear.




Of course Itachi has the potential. He's a sneaky bastard, and almost did through that Amaterasu eye trap. Even if I was confident in defeating Itachi, I personally would not challenge a man like that when he was going to succumb to illness in the near future. What would be the point.



> A and Gai, for instance, do not have the same sort of genjutsu-defense that Hebi Sasuke does


.


Sure they do. Ei has his freakishly unnatural speed, which should make sustained eye-contact very difficult to do without some kind of restraint. Gai has developed a method of fighting the Sharingan by looking at the feet. Both are good defense against Itachi's illusions.




> Base Sasuke effortlessly soloed a similar quantity without actually spilling their blood and Orochimaru told him he'd never be able to beat Itachi that way. So Sasori using his best trick to do so isn't a huge hype-factor for me. And shuriken! But yeah. So if he said he used Susano'o, then drop all this about them being sleeping fodder. The Uchiha clan was hyped as the pride of Konoha, and Sasuke didn't think Itach could do it even with the Mangekyō.





Sasuke soloed fodder. I already admitted that the fodder that fell to Itachi was high-quality. You seem to have equated using the Mangekyou to using Susano'o, which may not be the case. Itachi may have just dropped a few with Tsukuyomi, the only confirmed technique he had at the time.

This point isn't even really worth debating, as Itachi didn't _really_ solo them.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama was being extremely modest in his praise for Itachi



Your interpretation is not what I'm debating. 



Rocky said:


> The idea that Jiraiya wouldn't know of the first two Hokage of his village doesn't seem very likely to me.



You think Jiriaya considered Minato unparalleled by Hashirama? Rikudō?



Rocky said:


> Could you post the actual scan so I know this is legit. I've never seen this.







Rocky said:


> Both are good defense against Itachi's illusions.



Those defenses are subpar to Hebi Sasuke's own.



Rocky said:


> You seem to have equated using the Mangekyou to using Susano'o, which may not be the case. Itachi may have just dropped a few with Tsukuyomi, the only confirmed technique he had at the time.



Not really. Itachi said he awoke the third technique, Susano'o, on that fateful day. Obito also said that Itachi cried tears of blood when murdering his family, which alludes to the usage of Amaterasu. He used all of his tricks.



Rocky said:


> This point isn't even really worth debating, as Itachi didn't _really_ solo them.



All the more reason for you to drop the "sleeping fodder" BS.


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## Rocky (Jul 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Your interpretation is not what I'm debating.




Yes it is. We're not debating facts, as facts can't be debated. It's my opinion against yours.





> You think Jiriaya considered Minato unparalleled by Hashirama? Rikudō?




I guess. I didn't write the Manga, but I do know that Jiraiya at least knew of the Rikudou Sennin, and I highly doubt he didn't know who the first Hokage was.




> Those defenses are subpar to Hebi Sasuke's own.




Says you. Those defenses work perfectly well. Actually they're better. Avoiding illusions all together is superior to facing them and hoping you have a solid enough defense to resist.



> Not really. Itachi said he awoke the third technique, Susano'o, on that fateful day. Obito also said that Itachi cried tears of blood when murdering his family, which alludes to the usage of Amaterasu. He used all of his tricks.




He didn't use Amaterasu when he murdered his family, he used a sword. Might want to check the credibility of your source; it's probably outdated now that the details of the attack have been revealed. You're basing everything off its ambiguous wording.



> All the more reason for you to drop the "sleeping fodder" BS.




OK. They weren't sleeping. But! They were ambushed, which was more my point. He didn't face off with them all on an open battlefield. And they were fodder, unless you want to cough up the feats that put them higher up.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes it is.



This was prefaced when the discussion began. The hype is there, and it's debatable. That's where I'm leaving it. Interpretations are based _around_ facts, and they're changed with different, tiresome methods. Not interested.



Rocky said:


> I guess.



There's your interpretation for you.



Rocky said:


> Says you. Those defenses work perfectly well. Actually they're better.



Gai's "defense" comes at the price of massively increasing his blindspots. Given Itachi projectile feats against the Rinnegan and Sharingan, that's a big shortcoming. A's defense is nonexistent and based on a mistranslation. 



Rocky said:


> He didn't use Amaterasu when he murdered his family



Obito says differently, and he was there. But whether or not he did is beside the point. If Itachi said he awoke Susano'o that day, then things were clearly difficult enough to merit Amaterasu anyway.


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## Rocky (Jul 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> This was prefaced when the discussion began. The hype is there, and it's debatable. That's where I'm leaving it. Interpretations are based _around_ facts, and they're changed with different, tiresome methods. Not interested.




Beginning any debate on this fictional Manga is going to merit countering each other's interpretations. The fact that you don't want me to give my interpretations is the most humorous thing I've heard all day.

You know Itachi said the best outcome in a fight with Jiraiya was a mutual death. You want to argue? Provide facts that disprove it. Don't tell me he was lying based only on your interpretation of the scene. We wouldn't want that.

What about this point you made before: 





			
				Strat said:
			
		

> *Here's how I see it*: Obito said that Itachi never ceased to amaze him. Combine that with jutsu as deadly and fast as Amaterasu... and Obito thought Itachi killing him was highly possible. So he steered clear.




What's that, a fact?



> There's your interpretation for you




It's what was said isn't it? If you want to _hide_ behind Hashirama's words, then don't complain about Jiraiya's.



> Gai's "defense" comes at the price of massively increasing his blindspots. Given Itachi projectile feats against the Rinnegan and Sharingan, that's a big shortcoming. A's defense is nonexistent and based on a mistranslation.




Gai's isn't just looking at the feet in some half-assed attempt to avoid Genjutsu. He's trained to fight effectively while doing so. Unless his blindspots have ever been exploited while applying this method in battle, you're making this up.

I didn't base Ei's defense off anything ever said. Ever tried making eye-contact with something your eyes can't follow?




> Obito says differently, and he was there.




Well Obito blatantly lied. _Read_ _the_ _goddamn_ _scene_ and tell me where Amaterasu was used. 

I'm calling bull on all of your information regarding that night from this source. It obviously isn't credible.


----------



## Rain (Jul 10, 2013)

Tsukuyomi Databook 3 entry said:
			
		

> Even a body made of iron or *the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu*, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.



Yeah, Itachi wins this one.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Gai's isn't just looking at the feet in some half-assed attempt to avoid Genjutsu. He's trained to fight effectively while doing so. Unless his blindspots have ever been exploited while applying this method in battle, you're making this up.



Okay, I'm making up that only looking at Itachi's feet increases Gai's blindspots. The nonexistent blindspot can't be exploited by Itachi's shurikenjutsu. I concede that I made that up and it's totally baseless. Gai's immune to it all.



Rocky said:


> Ever tried making eye-contact with something your eyes can't follow?



A doesn't keep constantly moving. Especially at that speed. Feel free to reread any of his fights. The viz translation makes it clear that A bragged to Sasuke that his Sharingan couldn't follow his speed, not that genjutsu is ineffective.



Rocky said:


> Well Obito blatantly lied. _Read_ _the_ _goddamn_ _scene_ and tell me where Amaterasu was used.



He didn't use it against his parents, and Obito never said he did.



Rocky said:


> I'm calling bull on all of your information regarding that night from this source. It obviously isn't credible.



Yeah, Itachi and Obito wouldn't know what they're talking about anyway, and you providing the scene where Itachi killed his parents totally disproves what Itachi and Obito said about techniques he used to kill the rest of his clan.


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## Rocky (Jul 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Okay, I'm making up that only looking at Itachi's feet increases Gai's blindspots. The nonexistent blindspot can't be exploited by Itachi's shurikenjutsu. I concede that I made that up and it's totally baseless. Gai's immune to it all.




Gai trained to reconize what Itachi was doing by only observing his feet. Looking at the feet only would normally be a disadvantage yes, but Gai is conditioned to mitigate that very disadvantage. For Gai, it's just like he was looking at Itachi's full body.





> A doesn't keep constantly moving. Especially at that speed. Feel free to reread any of his fights. The viz translation makes it clear that A bragged to Sasuke that his Sharingan couldn't follow his speed, not that genjutsu is ineffective.




If the Sharingan cannot follow his speed, then by extension Sasuke isn't going to be making extended eye contact. Apparently he can't even make extended body contact to land Amaterasu.

And while it's very true that Ei doesn't constantly Shunshin, no Sharingan illusionist is constantly casting Genjutsu. Ei has a natural speed advantage on top of the body flicker, so he can use it all to avoid making eye contact he knows not to make anyway.




> He didn't use it against his parents, and Obito never said he did.




You're right, the word was "family". Now, humor me: Which family member did he use it on, Fugaku, Mikoto, or Sasuke?




> Yeah, Itachi and Obito wouldn't know what they're talking about anyway, and you providing the scene where Itachi killed his parents totally disproves what Itachi and Obito said about techniques he used to kill the rest of his clan.




It discredits the source. 

In your eyes, Itachi doesn't know what he's talking about only when it works for you. What's a lie and what's the truth? Was Itachi lying when he said the best he could do against Jiraiya was draw? Was he lying when he said he couldn't use the Mangekyou at 30%? According to you, yes. There isn't any concrete evidence to suggest otherwise, yet still you stick to your guns.

Obito flat out lied, so yeah, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He said Itachi cried tears of blood when murdering his family. According to you, that means Amaterasu. Well....Sasuke wasn't murdered, and his parents were killed by a sword. To me, that means Obito's ambiguous wording cannot be trusted to be the exact truth.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Gai trained to reconize what Itachi was doing by only observing his feet. Looking at the feet only would normally be a disadvantage yes, but Gai is conditioned to mitigate that very disadvantage. For Gai, it's just like he was looking at Itachi's full body.



I already agreed with you. Gai can see hand movements that he wouldn't be able to see if he were looking at Itachi's hands by looking at his feet. Makes perfect sense to me now. You proved as much.



Rocky said:


> You're right, the word was "family". Now, humor me: Which family member did he use it on, Fugaku, Mikoto, or Sasuke?



The word was actually "brethren" and the Uchiha clan is his family. Fugaku, Mikoto, and Sasuke were his immediate family but by no means his only family. Or do you not consider cousins, uncles, grandparents, etc. to be your family?



Rocky said:


> Was Itachi lying when he said the best he could do against Jiraiya was draw?



The subject wasn't Jiraiya, but Kurama. And like I said twice before, your intepretation of whether Itachi was lying when he said the best Kisame, himself, and more backup could do against base Jiraiya was draw is not my issue.



Rocky said:


> Was he lying when he said he couldn't use the Mangekyou at 30%? According to you, yes. There isn't any concrete evidence to suggest otherwise



Really, really simple math serves as concrete evidence. Itachi used more than three Mangekyō  jutsu against Sasuke. That means that each Mangekyō technique required less than 25% of his chakra.

As I said at the very beginning, if there was a limitation, then it didn't have to do with not having adequate chakra.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I already agreed with you. Gai can see hand movements that he wouldn't be able to see if he were looking at Itachi's hands by looking at his feet. Makes perfect sense to me now. Sasuke totally should have trained for that.




Do you even understand what Gai does? He may not see Itachi's actual hand movements, but apparently, by looking at his feet he knows Itachi is making them. Kakashi deemed it pretty effective.





> Obito used the word "loved ones" and the Uchiha clan is his family.




You told me the word was family. Can you link the scan so I can read the conversation. What translation are you using?

The Uchiha are his figurative family, not his actual listed family. 




> The subject wasn't Jiraiya, but Kurama.




Link the scan here as well. You're making it sound as if the best Itachi could do was draw with Preskip Naruto.



> Really, really simple math serves as concrete evidence. Itachi used more than three Mangekyō  jutsu against Sasuke. That means that each Mangekyō technique required less than 25% of his chakra. That's as concrete as it gets.




It doesn't work like that.

Like the Muu example. At half power, the Tsuchikage couldn't use Jinton at all, but do we both agree he could use it more than twice while at max?

Also, against Sasuke, Itachi was fighting that battle with the intention to die. He's going to be able to push himself further.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Do you even understand what Gai does? He may not see Itachi's actual hand movements, but apparently, by looking at his feet he knows Itachi is making them. Kakashi deemed it pretty effective.



When did Kakashi deem it "pretty effective," and since when was part one Kakashi comparable to Itachi in hand-speed or shurikenjutsu? It was a step-up from Asuma and Kurenai closing their eyes. That's all. 



Rocky said:


> The Uchiha are his figurative family, not his actual listed family.



Haha, what? They're his literal, genetic family. I don't even.





Rocky said:


> Link the scan here as well. You're making it sound as if the best Itachi could do was draw with Preskip Naruto.



I said Kurama, not Naruto. Anyway, check out the wording yourself:



Once Itachi & Kisame confirm Naruto's level, Itachi says there's no rush:



This page shows their uncertainty about Naruto's level:


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## Rocky (Jul 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> When did Kakashi deem it pretty effective, and since when was part one Kakashi comparable to Itachi in shurikenjutsu?




Kakashi went to Gai to learn it after Itachi dropped him with Tsukuyomi. I never said Kakashi was Itachi's equal in Shruikenjutsu.




> Haha, what? They're his literal, genetic family.




They're the same clan. There is no proof...._anywhere_....of Itachi having any living cousins, Grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. at the time of the massacre. 

Brethren makes more sense to what you're saying. 



> I said Kurama, not Naruto.




Kurama wasn't there.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi went to Gai to learn it after Itachi dropped him with Tsukuyomi.



To my knowledge, this never happened in the manga. Kakashi evades eye contact later on, but not by looking at Itachi's feet.



Rocky said:


> They're the same clan. There is no proof...._anywhere_....of Itachi having any living cousins, Grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. at the time of the massacre.



A clan with a shared bloodline ability isn't family. Okay, whatever.



Rocky said:


> Kurama wasn't there.



Kurama was Akatsuki's target, so he obviously was there. Kisame even says pointblank: "Could this child really be the Nine-Tails?" They didn't know what to expect. The viz scan makes it clear that the initial subject of the hype was Kurama, and then the subject shifted to his babysitter, Jiriaya. 

And given Kurama's standing as the ultimate beast, Itachi saying that him, Kisame, and more backup could only stalemate makes a lot more sense than saying so about the peer of Orochimaru, whom the author had already established was Itachi inferior. Kisame telling Itachi not to use his Mangekyō and also asking why he was retreating from Jiriaya further confirms this. Itachi saying if it was true about Naruto's level, then there's no need to rush confirms it even further still.


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## Genma1998 (Jul 10, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Minato's speed will easily make it so itachi will not be able to hit him and while itachi can be tagged and hit at will, without a way to seal itachi, Minato cannot really win...
> 
> However, with the time space barrier plus the FTG, minato should be able to use the sword of totsuka against itachi by drawing the blade into his Kamui vortex, throw a kunai or already have itachi tagged then reverse summon the blade directly onto edo itachi, stabbing him, sealing him away in his own sword.
> 
> I like itachi and he is truly strong, but Minato is just way too much for him...



I agree with this 100%


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## Rocky (Jul 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> To my knowledge, this never happened in the manga.




He spoke to Gai about his "match" with Itachi.



Then, Kakashi went on to _boast _about how last time he was unprepared, and it would be "different this time".



> A clan with a shared bloodline ability isn't family. Okay, whatever.




I don't mate with my family.




> Kurama was Akatsuki's target, so he obviously was there. Kisame even says pointblank: "Could this child really be the Nine-Tails?" They didn't know what to expect. The viz scan makes it clear that the initial subject of the hype was Kurama, and then the subject shifted to his babysitter, Jiriaya.




The Nine-Tailed fox and Naruto are separate entities.  The Fox was not on the loose, so they were speaking of Naruto. Give me the scan because I want to believe you, and I don't know where Kisame's comments are in the Manga.


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## Rocky (Jul 10, 2013)

Ah, so they were under the assumption that Naruto was already in control and just as big a threat as Kurama. So the true hype is just that their titles don't match up to his.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He spoke to Gai about his "match" with Itachi.



I would rep you, but I can't atm. I did not remember this.



Rocky said:


> I don't mate with my family.



Your family isn't as sexy as teh Uchiha. But on a more serious note, incestuous relationships were very common among royalties that were prideful about blood, and that goes along with the Uchiha (and Kaguya) well enough. 

Itachi and Kimimaro were the peaks of their clan's talent, and their sickness resembles the son of Tsar Nicholas (Anastasia's brother,) who had a compromised immune system due to the inbreeding, catching tuberculosis...



Rocky said:


> Ah, so they were under the assumption that Naruto was already in control and just as big a threat as Kurama. So the true hype is just that their titles don't match up to his.



Yesh.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Ah, so they were under the assumption that Naruto was already in control and just as big a threat as Kurama. So the true hype is just that their titles don't match up to his.



No, that's just Itachi's fans excuses to get rid of that statement. As a matter of fact Itachi
said it clearly 
*Tails and more tails.*

he did not think that Naruto would ever have control over Kurama. 

2- Takl said that all Japanese speakers that the statement about Jiraiya.


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## Dr. White (Jul 10, 2013)

- Gai's method of dealing with sharingan only accounts for 3- tomoe powers, and Tsukuyomi. This puts him at a major disadvantage against any serious MS user with all 3 MS jutsu: will come back to this point for reference.

- Kakashi's boast don't mean anything, Itachi was fighting for a purposeful draw, and Kakashi needed Naruto's help, and pre-emportory knowledge just to defeat a non serious, zero killing intent Itachi clone. He also apparently didn't give to shits about the method anyways as his method of escaping genjutsu was using a clone bushin.

- Itachi is clearly refering to Jiraiya when he speaks about the threat: hence why Kisame calls the "babysitter" Jiraiya a nuisance. Itachi clearly bullshits a lie so that Kisame(one of Tobi's top men, who specifically told Itachi he'd be watching him) wouldn't get suspsicious, using the title of Sannin was a perfect way to throw him off.

This can be backed up by pretty much everything we know about Itachi.

1st Appearence: Itachi's first appearence showcases him "fighting" with Konoha Jounin, we must note that he fight very immobile, and slow, compared to his Edo Itachi self, and uses zero death techniques on them. He could have roasted Asuma and Kurenai with Amaterasu while they stood there eyes closed, and it was specifically noted in canon by Kakashi himself that Itachi could have killed him infering he was holding back.

Later Facts: It is manga canon that Itachi loved Konoha still, and was acting as a double agent under Akatsuki's name. Why the fuck we he actually try and succeed on a mission that would give Tobi the most power bestowing him Kurama? Why would he engage Jiraiya in a match with AOE Kisame, and his deadly MS hax near innocent civilians? Makes no sense: overall context tells us everything we need to know.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 10, 2013)

I think my evidence speaks for itself, Torjan, and I wasn't arguing that Akatsuki assumed Naruto had subjugated the beast like you seem to think. Merely that he could give into its power to wreck shit.

Take the other kid-Jinchūriki, Gaara, for example. He definitely couldn't control Shukaku (Shukaku was literally driving him crazy,) but he could  him and wreck a village. And given that Kurama's way, way stronger than Shukaku...


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## Augustus Haugerud (Jul 11, 2013)

> I don't mate with my family.



Thank's for the laugh


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## Rocky (Jul 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Your family isn't as sexy as teh Uchiha. But on a more serious note, incestuous relationships were very common among royalties that were prideful about blood, and that goes along with the Uchiha (and Kaguya) well enough.
> 
> Itachi and Kimimaro were the peaks of their clan's talent, and their sickness resembles the son of Tsar Nicholas (Anastasia's brother,) who had a compromised immune system due to the inbreeding, catching tuberculosis...


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## Sans (Jul 11, 2013)

Rocky that is nothing. I present to you , last Habsburg ruler of the country.



> By the time of Charles's birth there had been many generations of inbreeding within the Spanish royal house; his physical and mental disabilities are widely attributed to this inbreeding. The practice of first-cousin and uncle-niece marriages was common among 17th-century European nobility, intended to preserve prosperous family's properties. Charles's own immediate pedigree was almost exclusively populated with close relative relationships: Charles's mother, Mariana of Austria, herself a Habsburg, was a niece of Charles's father, Philip. Mariana was a daughter of Empress Maria Anna of Spain and Emperor Ferdinand III. Thus, Maria Anna was simultaneously his aunt and grandmother and Margaret of Austria, Maria Anna's mother, was both his grandmother and great-grandmother. The inbreeding was so widespread in his case that all of his eight great-grandparents were descendants of Joanna and Philip I of Castile. This inbreeding had given many in the family hereditary weaknesses. That Habsburg generation was more prone to still-births than were peasants in Spanish villages.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 11, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Rocky that is nothing. I present to you , last Habsburg ruler of the country.



Started talking @ 4 and walking @ 8.

God daymm.

That guy is like the total opposite of Itachi who started talking and walking the moment he was born.


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