# The Wheel of Time



## Jeff P (Apr 7, 2007)

has anyone ever read it and if so when does the new book come out


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## DeathkillerD (Apr 7, 2007)

well considering it took him 4 years or so to write the last one, i wouldnt get ur hopes up


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## Mecha-Kisame (Apr 7, 2007)

The newest, and last, comes out this year actually.  It's rumored to be an absolute behemoth of a book.

Considering it's Jordan, that wouldn't surprise me.


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## Onislayer123 (Apr 7, 2007)

This year. 2000+ pages


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## Mecha Wolf (Apr 7, 2007)

Can someone link me to info on the last book? I didn't know it was coming out this year. I figure since he was sick, it would be delayed.


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## isanon (Apr 8, 2007)

Mecha-Kisame said:


> The newest, and last, comes out this year actually.  It's rumored to be an absolute behemoth of a book.
> 
> Considering it's Jordan, that wouldn't surprise me.


yeah i think he wants to complete his series since he almost died of cancer.


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## Gold Knight (Apr 8, 2007)

The *last* book?  Well, that's good, I didn't think he was ever going to finish this series.

I may have to do some re-reading if that's the case.  I stopped around Book Nine.  I enjoyed the series even though it was pretty much a blatant rip-off of Tolkein, I'm sorry to say - but it did satisfy my need for some hardcore fantasy reading, so I won't hold it against him too much.  Plus it's kinda fun to try to keep track of the enormous cast of the series.


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## Crowe (Apr 8, 2007)

I've just started re-reading it. I'm going to finish "The Great Hunt" today if I get some time for it and pick up "Dragon reborn" directly after. I kind of lost interest after the 5-6th book.


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## Onislayer123 (Apr 8, 2007)

sad... should atleast read 11th it was the best other then the 1st one imo


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## Trash Bear (Apr 9, 2007)

I've read from dragonmount and wikipedia that book 12 is looking to be a 2009 release, here's what they say:

A Memory of Light is a working title for the twelfth book of the popular The Wheel of Time fantasy series written by American author Robert Jordan. It will be published by Tor Books. Tor has confirmed that it will be released in early 2009; it will conclude the series, which began in 1990 with The Eye of the World.


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## Sho (Apr 9, 2007)

Yeah, they're definitely not gonna release Memory of Light this year or next year.  2009 is the best anyone can hope for, especially with it gonna be much more longer than the previous books and that Robert Jordan is still fighting with his illness.

On that note, I wouldn't really trust Tor's projected release date either.  They've been wrong nearly every time they've initially projected a new WoT book, just like George R.R Martin's publisher has always been wrong with their release dates.  Not even RJ knows when the book will be finished, so don't take what they're saying without a grain of salt.  

Personally, I would expect the last book to come out late 2009 during fall, or early 2010.


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## Trash Bear (Apr 9, 2007)

Aye, personally I'm gonna pray for an early 2009 release, dare I say late 2008 release. RJ has said that when he finishes writing, they're gonna publish as quick as possible. He's really motivated to get this book done, the result of his failing health, but it'll be hard, because of said health status. So really he's working as hard as any man in his condition can work. 

Ahhhh, don't get me started on Martin .


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## HOOfan_1 (Apr 9, 2007)

Yeah definitely not this year...he just stated a few months ago he was still writing and that it would be the last book no matter how long it was...although Tor may have something to say about that and they may cut the book in two.  I feel bad for Jordan, but he sure has strung his fans along for quite some time.  I just hope he live a happy life for as long as possilbe and possibly gets time to write some of the other book series he has been talking about....he has also stated that he will write 1 or 2 more prequels.


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## Gold Knight (Apr 11, 2007)

Sounds like from his blog that Jordan is doing better these days, so hopefully he does live longer.  I wonder if his last series that he's planning to do after Wheel of Time will actually ever be completed.  I guess, though, it might be something to keep him wanting to live longer and fight on, so... he's probably writing for himself right now more than he is for anybody else.

Anyway, He did write some good stuff but I still wouldn't count his Wheel of Time series as one of my favorite fantasy series.  But there's not really all that much good out in that particular genre, so... but I'm looking forward to seeing what he had in mind for Rand and company.


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## myle (Apr 18, 2007)

I think his best book is the third of the series "Dragon Reborn".
I hope he will achieve to publish the last book of the series.


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## Tea And Cookies! (Apr 19, 2007)

yes, well, I just hope it comes out soon. I'm gettin ansy. I think it was Lord of Chaos I enjoyed best, but I do get the titles mixed up.


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## Treima (Apr 20, 2007)

I stopped reading once Jordan decided to fill his books with at least four adjectives for every one noun and three adverbs to every verb. Which is to say, halfway through Crown of Swords.

I enjoyed the Dragon Reborn the best of all the books, really.


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## shinjowy (Apr 20, 2007)

I am, and will always be, a fan of the Wheel of Time series. And yes, I did find the later books boring (later meaning books after Lord of Chaos), with the exception being Winter's Heart and Knife of Dreams; however, this series will always have a place in my heart and I will always be a fan since this was the first ever fantasy series that I read (I started reading this 11 years ago).

Personally, I found The Shadow Rising to be the best of the series, mainly because of the way Jordan structured the chapters and the various plots in the book. Fires of Heaven and Knife of Dreams are probably second best, IMO.

I'm really, really looking forward to the last book of the series and a final closure to the main plot points.


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## Tyrael (Apr 25, 2007)

I don't think he has cancer but he is ill, apparently he says he is going to live for another 29 years so he can finish the wheel of time series and its spin-offs. So I wouldn't hold your breath for complete closure of the whole story for a while yet...


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## isanon (Apr 28, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> I don't think he has cancer but he is ill, apparently he says he is going to live for another 29 years so he can finish the wheel of time series and its spin-offs. So I wouldn't hold your breath for complete closure of the whole story for a while yet...


he did have cancer and almost died from it (taken from his own blogg) but he beat it and is now alive and well


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## Noitora (Apr 28, 2007)

I've only recently started reading it myself, and pitifully only near the end of the first book. But I hope, I can catch up soon.


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## HOOfan_1 (Apr 28, 2007)

take your time...the last book won't be out for a while....I wish I had waited to start reading them until all books were out...there are so many books I want to read, so many games I want to play, so many manga I want to read, so many anime I want to watch, I don't have time to read the books 3 or 4 times to keep myself refreshed on what is happening


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## Valen24 (May 10, 2007)

i remember reading this series like 4 years ago, and am surprised i was able to get through some of the books (later ones). once the book got away from either rand, mat, or perrin and started focusing on egwene or elayne or whoever then it got pretty boring. i really dislike egwene, elayne, and cadsuane. a lot of times i found myself wishing someone would just smack those fools. but once it got back to the main characters especially rand it got very entertaining.


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## isanon (May 10, 2007)

Valen24 said:


> i remember reading this series like 4 years ago, and am surprised i was able to get through some of the books (later ones). once the book got away from either rand, mat, or perrin and started focusing on egwene or elayne or whoever then it got pretty boring. i really dislike egwene, elayne, and cadsuane. a lot of times i found myself wishing someone would just smack those fools. but once it got back to the main characters especially rand it got very entertaining.


i dont mind egwene but i cant stand perin. he must be the dullest caracter in existence (no counting sasuke)


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## shinjowy (May 10, 2007)

I think the main reason why lots of people find Perrin boring and annoying is because of his over obsessiveness towards Faile and the length of the "Faile Rescue Arc". 

Unlike most people, I actually find Perrin quite an interesting character and attribute most of his "boring-ness" from his interactions with Faile, who I believe is the most annoying character in the books.

In fact, I believe Perrin has had the most interesting character development (though his development isn't toward the "good" side) among the three taveren in the series, though his development should not be looked at individually, but in concert to that of Aram's. All throughout the series, Perrin has been the "just" and "kind" character, (maybe why all of you find him so boring), and fights to ensure that "good" prevails. He has always been the "light" to those around him, most especially to Aram.

Aram, on the other hand, has always been the "lost sheep", especially after he is rejected by his family and the Tinkers. After being unable to bear the road set out by the Way of the Leaf, he loses his family, his home, his principles, and most importantly, his own sense of self. He becomes lost. When Perrin comes along and asks Aram to fight for him, Aram instinctively clings to Perrin and his words because of his desperate to fill that space in his self that was taken away when he was totally rejected by the Tinkers. He puts Perrin on a pedestal and sees him as the Light itself, and becomes overly protective of Perrin and Faile, as they become his sole purpose for living. 

The interesting development in both their characters start as the "Faile Rescue Arc" commences. In this arc, Perrin slowly degrades in character as the days pass that they are unable to find and rescue Faile. His character reaches its most "evil" point as he states that he will "make a deal with the Dark One just to get Faile back" (referring of course to the Seanchan). At this point, Perrin's overly protective nature and obsession with Faile consume him, and becomes his own sole point of living. He also states that if the Last Battle is to be fought, then it will be fought without him as long as he cannot find Faile. At this stage, it is Perrin himself who becomes lost, as he loses sensitivity for the world around him and centers himself on Faile.

Now all this occurs as Aram is by Perrin's side. As Perrin continues to degrade in his "good" character, Aram realizes that the "light" that he was once following is no longer shining. I believe that he enters a state of confusion as the hero that he had set up on that pedestal now falls, and with that hero, his very life and principle. This is further aggravated when Perrin finally signs the deal with the Seanchan and also showcases his cruelty by cutting off those Aiel's arms and legs. But then, through this process, I believe that Aram gains another goal: to save the other hero on his pedestal, Faile. Aram thus believes that he must save Faile from the beast Perrin has become, and thus believes himself to be "good" and "just" as he tries to kill Perrin "a creature of the Dark One", in Malden.

Therefore, in a way, "Perrin" transforms into what Aram once was, and "Aram" becomes what Perrin once was. However, I do think that Jordan could have done a better job of this, as I do believe that the rescue arc was extended too much; if he had paced the chapters better, it would have made more of an  impact. (IMO anyway)


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## Tyrael (May 15, 2007)

Jordan does have the intrinsic problem of portraying pretty much all the female characters as huffy or arrogant. This may be drawing from his experience with women, I'm not sure, but it does means that, consequently, he almost seems to make a lot of the characters purposefully annoying.

The pacing of the books is fairly ridiculous as well, as highlighted with the aforementioned Faile rescue mission and it took far too long for the drought to be countered.

He, however, is a writer of amazing scale of imagination though and a brilliant writer. I just have no idea about how he is going tie it all up in one more book, even though I suspect that he will leaves some story strands unresolved for spin-offs.


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## HOOfan_1 (May 15, 2007)

not to mention that Jordan seems to be enamored with spanking...some girls always seems to be getting spanked in the books.


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## Robotkiller (May 20, 2007)

I read through the first four books, but I don't think I can continue. There are too many traveling breaks between the action, and when there is action it's all very confusing and nonsensical. I've yet to invest any emotional attachment in any of the characters except mat, because he's the only one of jordans' characters that acts believably human. All others are befallen to jordan's sex-based stereotypes (lol men are stubborn and girls are smarterer but lack basic emotional managing skills) to the point of ridiculousness. What women in their right mind would share someone they loved with two other women, besides a mormon.

In fact, if it wasn't for Matrim I would have stopped reading the series 2 books ago.



Tyrael said:


> *I just have no idea about how he is going tie it all up in one more book,* even though I suspect that he will leaves some story strands unresolved for spin-offs.


Simple, he just has to make it the size of two books. I've heard it's going to be nearly 2,000 pages.


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## Insomnia (May 26, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> I read through the first four books, but I don't think I can continue. There are too many traveling breaks between the action, and when there is action it's all very confusing and nonsensical. I've yet to invest any emotional attachment in any of the characters except mat, because he's the only one of jordans' characters that acts believably human. All others are befallen to jordan's sex-based stereotypes (lol men are stubborn and girls are smarterer but lack basic emotional managing skills) to the point of ridiculousness. What women in their right mind would share someone they loved with two other women, besides a mormon.
> 
> In fact, if it wasn't for Matrim I would have stopped reading the series 2 books ago.
> 
> ...



Hmm, I see that the series tends to really divide people. I was definitely pissed at the travelling breaks and way he divides his attention between characters (Rand really drops off considerably in the last five-ish books), but I managed to break through all that for some of the better parts of the series. I myself liked the series, but I can see where it could be really annoying. The last books he really mucked up, which is why he needs to make the 12th so damn long.


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## Trash Bear (May 31, 2007)

Ha ha, God I hate 98% of the women in this series, especially Egwene, I never though I'd find myself wishing that a fictional character in a book would die, but I really hope that she meets a horrible end in the finale. Egwene, oh god, don't get me started on her, how she can criticize Rand in the 3rd/4th book (can't remember) about how he's going about things (going to war, not taking advice from people, etc), how he's gotten a huge ego, and then when she finds herself in power later on, behaves the SAME exact way as Rand had earlier, Wow. I swear if Jordan has one of the male characters finally just snap and slap one of these women, telling them to STFU, I will hail him as the greatest author of all time.

Now saying all that it's a great series, and I'm actually about to reread. The great thing about this series once you have read it all already once, is that on rereads you can just skip all the chapters that involve the character(s) you don't like (which will most likely mean you'll skip all the chapters involving, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne).


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## Thirath (Jun 11, 2007)

Min is one of the female characters I really like.  There are a few others I have no problems with.  But some of them...well, they can be good sometimes, other times...not so much.  I don't like reading about petty bickering and stupidity.

Right now I'm most interested in Mat's subplot.  Tuon is shaping up to be real interesting too.  Hmm, add her to the list that I like.  I also like following the Forsaken; seeing what evil is up to is always interesting.  So in that regard, I'm hopeful the last book will be very good.  Though it's going to still be a long while before it comes out...Ah well, maybe I'll reread the series (again) one of these days when I'm bored.


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## Lazarus (Jun 11, 2007)

I think Min turned me into a misogynist.


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## Morwain (Jun 11, 2007)

I've only listened to a few on audio book with my dad a while back so I haven't read/listened to a few a last book should be interesting though.


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## HOOfan_1 (Jun 11, 2007)

Lazarus said:


> I think Min turned me into a misogynist.



I haven't read the last two books but Min is ok...if anyone would turn me into a misogynist it would be Naynave or Egwene.


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## Cobblestone Curfews (Jun 14, 2007)

HOOfan_1 said:


> I haven't read the last two books but Min is ok...if anyone would turn me into a misogynist it would be Naynave or Egwene.



Blah now I have to remember all that hatred I had for them =/.


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## analyticalkeys (Jun 14, 2007)

The Dragon Reborn is my absolute favorite book ever. I just need to warn you that 7-10 are probably a good waste of time. Not much happens, and you'll have to read 200-300 pages of reiteration of past events in each one. But where does it say the next book is going to be his last?


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## Robotkiller (Jun 14, 2007)

HOOfan_1 said:


> I haven't read the last two books but Min is ok...if anyone would turn me into a misogynist it would be Naynave or *Egwene*.



Never has another fictional character caused me to curse aloud at them.


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## zagman505 (Jun 22, 2007)

the next book is the last? O.o dang. i love the wheel of time series. sure, some of the characters are a tad annoying >_< and yeah by the time you get to book 7-10'ish, the story becomes too split up and nothing ever gets done since we hafta follow all 1029509285 people in the story and see what they're doing, but after you get past that, it's still a damn good series. if you think about it, the scale of the plot in the wheel of time is immense. normally you have all the 'good guys' in one spot fighting against huge numbers and eventually winning, or like in lord of the rings they split into maybe two or three groups. but here... everybody goes their own separate way. things happen in one place that affect everywhere else, etc etc etc. i only wish that jordan had done a better job of following each person, instead of just following them for an insignificant amount of time before jumping off to follow another character.


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## YellowFlash23 (Jul 1, 2007)

Insomnia said:


> Hmm, I see that the series tends to really divide people. I was definitely pissed at the travelling breaks and way he divides his attention between characters (Rand really drops off considerably in the last five-ish books), but I managed to break through all that for some of the better parts of the series. I myself liked the series, but I can see where it could be really annoying. The last books he really mucked up, which is why he needs to make the 12th so damn long.



Yeah, I hate them focusing with Perrin so much. We need to see much more Rand, since he's the fricking Dragon Reborn, which all the books should center around. The only action he's seen in the last couple books is that confrontation between the two Asha'man, and he kills one, or gets one killed, and the other dies from Fain, I'm sure.


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## Valen24 (Jul 2, 2007)

cadsuane is the worst of the women in this series. there are only a few women that i like, min being one of them. but i have to say that i hate cadsuane the most. especially when cadsuane made her first appearance to rand and was totally disrespectful to him. i cannot recall all the details about what took place basically cadsuane pissed off rand then rand later found out that min said that cadsuane was important to him and that he should listen to her. rand was forced to beg her to help him out. i don't know about you guys but when i read all that unfolding i got pissed off and was thinking who the hell is this wench! does she even know who she's disrespecting its the freakin dragon reborn! i thought after that that maybe i would get to like her, at best tolerate her, as the story progressed, but all this character did was piss me off even more with her antics.

you know probably the scenes that i remember the most from this series are the parts when matt spanks some aes sedai. matt needs to go to where cadsuane is and kick her ass.

sorry, for the rant but it needed to be said.


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## Valen24 (Jul 2, 2007)

cadsuane is the worst of the women in this series. there are only a few women that i like, min being one of them. but i have to say that i hate cadsuane the most. especially when cadsuane made her first appearance to rand and was totally disrespectful to him. i cannot recall all the details about what took place but cadsuane basically pissed off rand then rand later found out that min said that cadsuane was important to him and that he should listen to her. rand was forced to beg her to help him out. i don't know about you guys but when i read all that unfolding i got pissed off and was thinking who the hell is this wench! does she even know who she's disrespecting its the freakin dragon reborn! i thought after that that maybe i would get to like her, at best tolerate her, as the story progressed, but all this character did was piss me off even more with her antics.

you know probably the scenes that i remember the most are the parts when matt spanks some aes sedai. matt needs to go to where cadsuane is and kick her ass.

sorry, for the rant but it needed to be said.


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Jul 5, 2007)

I found Wheel of time pretty intresting. The first five books were really good IMO but RJ really blotched up the next ones. His biggest mistake was not picking up on the Seanchan after Falme. If he had gotten to Seanchan earlier, he could have saved a lot of pages of useless drible. 
I dont think he really planned out the answer Rand gets for asking "how he is to win the final battle and still live" ........ hence the whole mess
And what happend to Mat using the Old toungue ?


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## Freiza (Jul 5, 2007)

a very good book.


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## Draffut (Jul 8, 2007)

In my bordom here in Iraq, I started reading this series.  So far 2/3 way throug hte first book.  Only have the first 2 books here, and it's hard to get more books here, so I am tryign to make them last.

But anyhow, so far, I hate Mat, Perrin is the fucking awsomeness, Rand isn't bad.  And I want Thom back.  (He dissapeared after he attacked a fade)

I heard the series gets slow and kinda sucks around books 6-7, but then speeds back up afterwards.  Can't wait.


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## Dragon_of_Spirit (Jul 20, 2007)

I'm half way through the fourth book and so far it doesn't dissapoint. I really like reading about Mat and Perrin and now Rand is getting back into the picture. But what I hate was that half of the third book was about Egwene, Elayne and Nineave. That was very boring after a while. I can't wait to finish the series and I've got to finish the fourth one by tomorrow morning (it's 7:35 pm here) so I can start on Harry Potter.

But basicly this is my favorite series but... it doesn't have the same feel to it as the first and seconds books.


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## HOOfan_1 (Jul 22, 2007)

Dragon_of_Spirit said:


> I'm half way through the fourth book and so far it doesn't dissapoint. I really like reading about Mat and Perrin and now Rand is getting back into the picture. But what I hate was that half of the third book was about Egwene, Elayne and Nineave. That was very boring after a while. I can't wait to finish the series and I've got to finish the fourth one by tomorrow morning (it's 7:35 pm here) so I can start on Harry Potter.
> 
> But basicly this is my favorite series but... it doesn't have the same feel to it as the first and seconds books.



Get ready for alot of Egwene, Elayne and Nineave sections in the latter books....I am just waiting for the last book to come out so I can start over from the beginning and read all the way through....I haven't read Crossroads of Twilight or Knife of Dreams yet because I knew I would forget too much and I don't have time to re-read the entire series every time a new book comes out.


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## Mecha-Kisame (Sep 16, 2007)

Hrm, apparently Robert Jordan passed away today, bummer.


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## Dream Brother (Sep 16, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear about that.

I'd heard that he'd been diagnosed with a very serious illness, and was predicted to die within four years, but that was only about a year ago. I can't say that I cared for his fiction at all, but that doesn’t mean anything  in the face of this.

RIP.


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## Doggystyle (Sep 16, 2007)

Mecha-Kisame said:


> Hrm, apparently Robert Jordan passed away today, bummer.



Damn, I just heard about it too from Dragonmount. That's just sad. Wonder what's gonna happen to the last book now...


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 16, 2007)

NOOOOOOOO!!!!

The last book isn't done yet.....


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## MasamiAkane (Sep 16, 2007)

Doggystyle said:


> Damn, I just heard about it too from Dragonmount. That's just sad. Wonder what's gonna happen to the last book now...



That's insane! Poor guy.


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## neko-sennin (Sep 17, 2007)

Mecha-Kisame said:


> Hrm, apparently Robert Jordan passed away today, bummer.



I feared this would happen. It was exactly what Stephen King managed to avoid with the Dark Tower, but in the last couple years, I suspected that Jordan was too old and too sick to finish. 

I still intend to read Knife of Dreams and any subsequent conclusion (even though it will be posthumously ghost-written) out of respect for a great writer and a great series.


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## jkingler (Sep 17, 2007)

He died of Amyloidosis, no less. A disease that Foreman or House would diagnose--not common at all. 

And right before the final book of his life's most important work was completed. What a fucking downer. Poor guy.


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## martryn (Sep 17, 2007)

Ah shit.  That fucking blows.  God, I wonder what will happen to the series.  Who is going to pick it up and finish it now?  

Anyway, I invite everyone to join the Wheel of Time FC, located here:
Link removed


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 17, 2007)

martryn said:


> Ah shit.  That fucking blows.  God, I wonder what will happen to the series.  Who is going to pick it up and finish it now?
> 
> Anyway, I invite everyone to join the Wheel of Time FC, located here:
> Link removed





From his blog posts, I'm under the impression that he had written a significant proportion of the final book. Moreover he made very detailed notes, outlining all the plot points of the book. His wife will finish it.


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## shinjowy (Sep 17, 2007)

Even if A Memory of Light gets published, it's just too bad that RJ'll never see the fruits of his final book.

'May the last embrace of the mother welcome him home...'


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## Robotkiller (Sep 17, 2007)

Dammit, I always thought that he would win that race against time and finish his book before the disease picked away at what was left of his life. Man, my sociology teacher is going to be really depressed tomorrow, he loved the guy.


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## Tea And Cookies! (Sep 17, 2007)

damnit, this sucks


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## DirzU (Sep 17, 2007)

Damn, I wasn't even aware of his disease, although I'm a fan of the series. 'Tis a shame, he did a real good job with the books.


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## Nuriel (Sep 17, 2007)

Like everyone else, I'm very sorry to see that Robert Jordan passed away before he could see his final book published.  It definently is a testament to his strong will and dedication to his craft that he got as much completed as he did.


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## myle (Sep 18, 2007)

RIP. 
May the force be with him. I hope we will see the end of the series, somehow.


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## sunshine and gasoline (Sep 18, 2007)

myle said:


> RIP.
> May the force be with him. *I hope we will see the end of the series, somehow.*



Linky!

...


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## FitzChivalry (Sep 21, 2007)

If it the series gets completed, I'll seriously considering giving it a shot. But I have to know that it'll be finished.

What a shock, this man's death. Really, it makes me want George RR Martin to hurry up with his snail-pace writing, because he doesn't seem to be the healthiest looking man on the planet himself.


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 21, 2007)

That's why god gave us steven erikson.
1/book year...


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## Happosii (Sep 21, 2007)

I just heard about his death today( ive been working morning and night shifts the whole week)and ive known about his disease as i followed his blog quite a bit. I am saddend by what happend and I hope he R.I.P. 

I feel bad for Harriet but from what Robert was saying she is a strong woman. My sympathies goes to all of his family and to teh people he has inspired.


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## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2007)

Yeah, it is a shame when you hear about the amount of stuff he still wanted to write. Apparently he divulged all the major events in the final book to family members and the final book will be finished, but we've got a hefty wait in store. My condolences go out to his family.


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## isanon (Sep 22, 2007)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

he said he had beat the cancer


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## Chidoriblade (Sep 29, 2007)

Mecha-Kisame said:


> Hrm, apparently Robert Jordan passed away today, bummer.



Damn, I had hoped my friend had been lying... well I still have to finish the eigth, might aswell finish the ones that are out.


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## dragonsblade (Oct 22, 2007)

I personally found the sterotypes described in this book hilarious, although you err when you believe the characters _are_ sterotypes.  You probably don't remember the details, but the character's actions are never sterotypical, yet the opposite sex still describes them as such, and quite erroneously at that.  For example, Egwene describes Rand in the 4th book as stubborn, ascribing that as the cause of his unwillingless to trust Moiraine.  Yet, when we look at the situation through Rand's eyes, we see he has a reason for his mistrust and Egwene simply misunderstands the situation.  Perhaps Jordan had experiences with women who think they know everything.  G-d knows most everybody in the world shares similar experiences.  

I can only wish to be half the storyteller Jordan was.  How he was able to become dozens of different, novel characters, how he was able to describe a situation from so many p.o.v.'s, hint at everything yet say nothing.  Even the history and the simple plot invites awe.  The world's very survival depends on a man what everybody in the world loathes and fears.  The plot is such a tragedy that even Sophocles would be shamed.  After all, the very people he tries to save against the Dark One fight and resist him at every turn, try to get him killed.  Hell, even his mind is no safe haven.  Twists at every turn, the degredation and corruption of three simple farmboys, oft romanticized, into people who become what they never wanted to be in order to serve the Pattern's purpose and save the world.  Its a heart wrenching tragedy.     

Talents like his were not meant to last forever.  Had he lived longer than the Kin, he would have died too soon.  Amyloidosis slowly and painfully killed him, merciless in its choosing if merciful in its timing.  His death has been felt by many.  May the mother take him back into her embrace.


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Oct 22, 2007)

Quoted for truth ..... 
people disparaging him should realise that there was something about the man which made them read the books .... and his plot was great .... he lost his way in between but one can forgive him of being too ambitious. 
Hope the last book is good .... It is said that his wife is in charge of publishing it and she is an editor .... *crosses his fingers*


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## Mori` (Dec 22, 2008)

interesting little interview with sanderson here.



apparently who killed asmo will actually be answered


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## Pan-on (Dec 22, 2008)

im really looking forward to it, im rereading them just now actually, finished teh great hunt this morning, sanderson is a good writer, im suer he can pull it off with Jordans extensive notes.


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## Tyrael (Dec 22, 2008)

I never thought Asmodeus was dead since it was left so ambiguous-still don't actually. Should be interesting to see how that turns out though.

Three times the size of previous books? At least 600k by the looks of it. Bloody hell.

I always presumed Moraine was still alive too-interesting him saying that it's not something you should automatically assume.

I can't remember a few of the characters he's talking about too. I need to revisit those books at some point.


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## masamune1 (Apr 15, 2009)

direct link

direct link

direct link

Just thought I would post these, even though I don't read them. Main point is, there are now three last books.

Sorry if this has been psted before, but I'm pretty sure it has'nt.


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## Corlock (Apr 15, 2009)

Yeah, found out about the three book split recently, kinda upset by it.  I wasn't really happy with the series ending with a total of 12 true novels, and really wanted there to be 13.  Now there's going to be 14, it just doesn't sit right with me.  There should have been 13 novels in the series.


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## Pan-on (Apr 15, 2009)

well there were supposed to be 3 prequals as well, one was made so it would have been more than 13 anyway.


----------



## Corlock (Apr 18, 2009)

The prequels are novellas, not novels.


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## The Bloody Nine (Apr 21, 2009)

Synopsis of the prologue apparently. Second post down.


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## The Bloody Nine (May 11, 2009)

Maybe you've seen these before, but i have finally stumbled across some WoT fanart worthy of the name and i was so impressed i decided to pimp it out as much as i possibly could.   

 portrait gallery is spectacular, and IMO accurate,  as are these two scenes.


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## Tyrael (May 11, 2009)

Corlock said:


> The prequels are novellas, not novels.



_New Spring_ is a novel-no idea about any of the other projected prequels though.



The Bloody Nine said:


> Maybe you've seen these before, but i have finally stumbled across some WoT fanart worthy of the name and i was so impressed i decided to pimp it out as much as i possibly could.
> 
> portrait gallery is spectacular, and IMO accurate,  as are these two scenes.



That's pretty cool likes. I should probably go looking for fanart more often.


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## Pan-on (May 11, 2009)

Yup new spring is a novel far too long to be a novella


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## Tyrael (May 11, 2009)

If I remember correctly the cut off is 40k. Averaged sized novel, that is about 150 pages.


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## Corlock (May 15, 2009)

As I recall, Jordan himself always referred to it as a novella.


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## Pan-on (May 15, 2009)

Corlock said:


> As I recall, Jordan himself always referred to it as a novella.



perhaps in comparison to his other novels but in the technical sense it's a novel, way too long to be a proper novella.


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## The Bloody Nine (May 15, 2009)

I think your both right. He wrote a short novella for Legends: Short Novels by the Masters of Modern Fantasy. GRRM also wrote one and it was awesome. 

But then he got to really like the story, extended it and resold it as the short novel New Spring.


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## Tyrael (May 15, 2009)

Sounds about right, although _New Spring_ isn't really even a short novel. It's a pretty average size for a novel-outside of epic fantasy at any rate.


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## Eevihl (May 18, 2009)

I just got the news of the last book being three volumes. I have high hopes for the Mistborn writer.


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## RoguefanAM (May 28, 2009)

I love this series. I think it's the first large series I'd ever read through. The world's fun and imaginative, and characters are very nice too.

Perrin and Mat are pretty boring though. I remember skipping through their parts quite often. 

Another thing. Rand...three girls all to yourself? Really? _Really_? Harems are meh.

Besides those little misgivings, I adore these books! Can't wait for the last few book(s).


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## Baks (May 28, 2009)

Has anything been mentioned of possible release dates for the last three books?


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## masamune1 (May 28, 2009)

September/ October.

In direct(ish) competition with _A Dance with Dragons_. Makes me think Martin has been holding it off just to spite this series.


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## Tyrael (May 28, 2009)

RoguefanAM said:


> I love this series. I think it's the first large series I'd ever read through. The world's fun and imaginative, and characters are very nice too.
> 
> Perrin and Mat are pretty boring though. I remember skipping through their parts quite often.
> 
> ...



I honestly prefer Mat to Rand, Perrin's stuff was better than Rand's until about the 5th book or so, then it did get kind of aimless.

And the harem thing was ridiculous, but pretty damn funny.



masamune1 said:


> September/ October.
> 
> In direct(ish) competition with _A Dance with Dragons_. Makes me think Martin has been holding it off just to spite this series.



That's the first book's release; the third, and final for sure, probably won't be out until late '11. I'm currently unsure whether I should read them when they're released, or wait 'till all three are out.


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## Baks (Jun 1, 2009)

masamune1 said:


> September/ October.



So is that release date a worldwide one or is it just for the US?

Cuz if its for the US only - that date will be no good for me seeing as I live in the UK.


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## Sanity Check (Jun 13, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I honestly prefer Mat to Rand, Perrin's stuff was better than Rand's until about the 5th book or so, then it did get kind of aimless.
> 
> And the harem thing was ridiculous, but pretty damn funny.




Rand's story was good up until his re-incarnation was emphasized/established.  Then its like...  they stuff him into a trunk and lug him around.  And, he breaks wind, and accidentally kills 2 or 3 expert warriors.  Meh. 

Mat had the best 70's flashback scenes of all the characters.  One second he's dangling from a rope around his neck like Clint Eastwood, the next he's got gypsy, hippy, women naked with him in a wagon and he's falling off bridges and stuff.

Perrin was cool up until he got married and turned emo.  Luckily, the towns people were there to save him in his hour of need.

Thankfully, the harem thing saved Rand's character. . .


----------



## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

I always found the Children of the Light to be a very interesting aspect of the books, always finding the parts that they were involved in as my favourite. Geofram Bornhald, I felt, let his side down by pursuing and attacking a side of open ground, when he knew it was unlikely to live through it, even having Byar watch from afar.

Pedron Niall, also, found a place in my heart for his moments.


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## Pan-on (Jun 19, 2009)

Noitora said:


> I always found the Children of the Light to be a very interesting aspect of the books, always finding the parts that they were involved in as my favourite. Geofram Bornhald, I felt, let his side down by pursuing and attacking a side of open ground, when he knew it was unlikely to live through it, even having Byar watch from afar.
> 
> Pedron Niall, also, found a place in my heart for his moments.



Ah but Bornhald was playing the part of the religious zealot well, suicide bombers are proof on its power over people, I thought that scene was quite good.

And Niall was brilliant, it was very interesting watching somone scheming with incomplete information.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

Niall was a mastermind, through and through, an epicly created character. I prefered him immensely compared to Valda.

The Bornalds in general, I found enjoyable to read. Dain didn't really step up to Geoframs shoes as I would have hoped, though. He needs some years put into him.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2009)

Man, I can't even remember who any of these people are-years since read the book. Once the last trilogy is out, I'll reread it all.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

I only recently go through it, still fresh in my mind.

I'm a bit late, I think.


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## Pan-on (Jun 19, 2009)

Noitora said:


> I only recently go through it, still fresh in my mind.
> 
> I'm a bit late, I think.



I reread it for the 3rd or 4th time over winter, something nice and easy to read while i was on holiday, takes a damn long time to get through though.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

Bloody time consuming, for sure.

I love the series, but I felt, in perhaps _The Eye of the World_, that there was alot of travelling that wasn't needed so much. Mainly Rand and Matrims long walk from Whitrebridge to Caemlyn. I remember how happy I finally was when they reached Caemlyn.


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## attackoflance (Jun 22, 2009)

My favorite series and a great introduction to high fantasy apart from LOTR of course. Can't wait for the next book.


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## Kikyo (Jul 2, 2009)

FYI _The Gathering Storm_ is now in US production, set for a November 09 release. Initial page count is a bit less than 800 pages, including the glossary, etc. Sanderson has said that he'll do 4 books to finish the series.


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## Damaris (Jul 13, 2009)

WTFBBQ A WOT THREAD?

I love this series so much pek


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## Nimander (Jul 13, 2009)

*still pissed that the one book conclusion magically grew into three, then four*

Damn bloodsucking editors.  RJ wouldn't have settled for the book being finished in more than two if it turned out to be too thick.


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## Damaris (Jul 14, 2009)

1TrueSensei said:


> *still pissed that the one book conclusion magically grew into three, then four*
> 
> Damn bloodsucking editors.  RJ wouldn't have settled for the book being finished in more than two if it turned out to be too thick.



I think the concern was that they wouldn't actually be able to make a book that wouldn't fall apart. Their paperback covers are shoddy enough already.

And can you imagine lugging a book that size around for very long?


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## Nimander (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey, the bigger, the better.  It would've been an epic worthy of ending an epic series.


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## Damaris (Jul 14, 2009)

1TrueSensei said:


> Hey, the bigger, the better.  It would've been an epic worthy of ending an epic series.



They _literally couldn't make a book that big._ I know RJ wanted it in one book, but I'd rather have four books I can actually keep for a long time and carry around rather than one massive book that starts falling apart before I even leave the store.

I can't believe this series is really ending though. What am I going to do without waiting for the next one?


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## Maemi (Jul 16, 2009)

I was really looking foward to the fact that there was going to be only one book, now theres going to be three more...


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## Tyrael (Jul 16, 2009)

Wait, where did 4 books come from? I keep reasonably up to date with Sanderson's blog, and I'm sure three is the current estimated total.


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## NarutoXHinata (Jul 20, 2009)

it seems they had decided to change plans and realise 2 more books after this coming one
Link removed


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## KidTony (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm currently reading this series. I'm halfway through book 4. I'm very new to the fantasy genre, other than Tolkien, Potter and a few Raymond Feist books this is really my first time reading a long epic fantasy series. I really love this series though. Jordan has superb skill at world building, and i love most of the characters, and the way none of them are filler, but actually get even time, and grow with each book. I'm kind of worrying since everyone tells me the story takes a dip in quality after the fifth book and i just hope this 'dip' isn't so noticeable because I'm really enjoying reading this series so far.

After I'm done with WOT, I'm moving on to Martin's Song of Ice And Fire and Erickson's Malazan (sp?) book of the fallen. I heard that as far as epic fantasy goes, these two are the top dogs.


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## Nimander (Jul 21, 2009)

My opinion: don't let others pre-determine your enjoyment of a series.  As much as I like the early books in the series, they truly don't get "epic" until the middle and end of the series IMO.  The only book I seriously have a problem with is Crossroads of Twilight, and Knife of Dreams, cause they weren't as thick as the earlier ones.  But to me, the quality stays consistent throughout.  So don't let others dictate a series for you.


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## Corlock (Jul 21, 2009)

I have a feeling you won't have as many complaints with the books after 5 as other readers have.  I personally don't either.  Reason being, you didn't have to wait for each one of them.  When I started the series, I got to book nine just as it came out.  I enjoyed all the books to that point, so I can't say I felt the books after 5 were disappointing.  I can sort of understand why people maybe felt that way, especially if they then had to wait for each consecutive book.  But as I didn't have to do that, I didn't have that issue.  I don't think you will either.


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## Tyrael (Jul 21, 2009)

There are flaws aplenty, but I still enjoyed them.

Main problem is pace-things go soooo slooooow after a while.


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## Yoritomo (Jul 22, 2009)

I have to say that I love these books.  I know it sounds cliche', but these books really changed me.  I mean they are fantasy books and all, but I got interested in them.  After I read the series I re-read it about five times then started reading everything I could get my hands on.  Now I have my own personal library.  So I am happy that the series stretched on as long as it did.


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## KidTony (Jul 26, 2009)

Ok, I'm about halfway done with 'The Fires of Heaven' and i just reached the part where Rand sees Aviendha naked and she runs through a portal. My question is, did they have sex? What happened there was left pretty ambiguous and i'm not sure if to think they made love or they just kissed. What really did happen? (please try not to spoil future events in your replies)


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 27, 2009)

It's been awhile since I read that book, but if memory serves, they actually did have sex. Some of the Wise Ones make mention of it, I think.


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## Tyrael (Jul 27, 2009)

It as good as describes them having sex without stating it outright. 'bout time Rand lost his virginity too, considering he has three attractive women who spend half of their time chasing after him or the likes.


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## Corlock (Jul 27, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> There are flaws aplenty, but I still enjoyed them.
> 
> Main problem is pace-things go soooo slooooow after a while.



Yeah, there are flaws, especially in terms of the pacing.  However, said flaws far more noticable if you have to wait a few years between the books.  When you can just go and pick up the next book right away, you tend not to be as annoyed by the pacing and other flaws.  Like your favorite character not appearing at all in book 8, for instance.


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## Nimander (Jul 27, 2009)

Eh, to me the WoT wouldn't have half as much win as it has if Mat wasn't in it.  He is probably my absolute favorite character in the entire series.  His brand of kickassery surpasses what anyone else in the books can think of on their best day.

Band of the Red Hand FTMFW.  

I just had to say that.


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## KidTony (Jul 27, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> It as good as describes them having sex without stating it outright. 'bout time Rand lost his virginity too, considering he has three attractive women who spend half of their time chasing after him or the likes.



lol for real. Perrin is frigging married and mat spends all the time banging chicks. If i was rand i would have banged everyone. Egwene, Aviendha, Elaine, min, Moraine. I would have banged Lanfear too. ''Baby, is time to show me how far this undying love you have for me goes''.


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## Corlock (Jul 27, 2009)

KidTony said:


> lol for real. Perrin is frigging married and mat spends all the time banging chicks. If i was rand i would have banged everyone. Egwene, Aviendha, Elaine, min, *Moraine.* I would have banged Lanfear too. ''Baby, is time to show me how far this undying love you have for me goes''.



As I recall, Moraine commented that she was willing to do just that, to ensure that Rand faced his destiny.  However, she had had multiple visions of what would happen should she do that, and every time, it ended in disaster.  So, that would never happen, because Moraine would bitch slap his ass away.  And she could do it too, you know Lan would help.


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## Tyrael (Jul 27, 2009)

KidTony said:


> lol for real. Perrin is frigging married and mat spends all the time banging chicks. If i was rand i would have banged everyone. Egwene, Aviendha, Elaine, min, Moraine. I would have banged Lanfear too. ''Baby, is time to show me how far this undying love you have for me goes''.



They're all wasted on him it seems.

Rand's libido is broken or something. His whole attitude towards women is pretty twisted tbh.



Corlock said:


> As I recall, Moraine commented that she was willing to do just that, to ensure that Rand faced his destiny.  However, she had had multiple visions of what would happen should she do that, and every time, it ended in disaster.  So, that would never happen, because Moraine would bitch slap his ass away.  And she could do it too, you know Lan would help.



I wish it had happened anyway-the awkward tension would have been hilarious. May have screwed up the plot when the Dragon Reborn is murdered by Lan though.


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## Nimander (Jul 28, 2009)

Speaking of which, I can't wait till:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Moiraine comes back to the storyline.  I have a feeling that, possibly more than anyone else, she'll be essential towards making Rand less of a hardass, and help change him back to the person he used to be




And yes, a relationship between Rand and Moiraine would've been disastrous.  I wouldn't even have needed Robert Jordan's input to see that train wreck from a mile away.


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## KidTony (Jul 28, 2009)

Yeah, it was early in book five were Moraine said she'd do anything short of sharing his bed, (and that was only a no-no because of what she learned in Roydien). I chuckled a bit at that, it would have been pretty hilarious if it happened.


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## Nimander (Jul 29, 2009)

Yeah, the lulz would've been endless.  Though truth be told, I think that something like that would've genuinely driven Rand crazy.  Like, apeshit bonkers crazy.  And he's not exactly known for his mental stability as it is anyway, so I can definitely see why that would've been a no-no.

That's one of the few reasons why I like Rand's character, though he's far from my favorite character.  His decisions and choices are an interesting study on human nature IMO.


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## attackoflance (Jul 30, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I personally am really excited to see the interactions between Moiraine and Cadsuane.


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## isanon (Jul 30, 2009)

attackoflance said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I personally am really excited to see the interactions between Moiraine and Cadsuane.


now there is a bomb waiting to explode


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## Nimander (Jul 30, 2009)

isanon said:


> now there is a bomb waiting to explode



Funny you say that.  I think they'll get along swimmingly.  Or maybe I'm misremembering something about either of them.  But hey, I'm looking forward to seeing how they get along as well.

Oh, and since they haven't been posted here yet:


*Spoiler*: __ 









I think I definitely like the second cover better.  Simple, yet one that can be appreciated by longtime fans of the series because of how its stylized.


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## Tyrael (Jul 30, 2009)

First one is the American cover, second is the UK one.

Americans do tend to get screwed over when it comes to covers in the fantasy genre.


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## KidTony (Jul 30, 2009)

Finished "The Fires of Heaven'', I'll start on ''Lord of Chaos'' tonight. I have mixed feelings about FoH. First, I'm getting a bit tired of all the magic. I know that's how the story goes, but I much liked how it was in the earlier books where they fought with swords, etc. Right now, it seems like everything can be solved by spamming balefire X____X. I was surprised that Lanfear died, I was expecting Moiraine, but not Lanfear since I thought she'd make it all the way to the last book. The obsession with Rand she had seemed like a nice subplot that Jordan would continue to exploit, at least i enjoyed all of Rand's meetings with her with all the sexual innuendo, ect. Moirane I'm pretty sure is not dead. I think I saw a cover of 'Knife of Dreams' and I'm not sure (don't tell me) but I think it was her on that cover, so I guess Lanfear might not be dead either.

The book was my least favorite of the five I read so far. I liked it a lot, but it had a somewhat underwhelming climax. Kind of seemed like in the Dragon Reborn where i thought the ending was a bit rushed.  Perhaps is that i find the maigc battles is bit hard to follow, Jordan keeps saying the characters are weaving this and that, but t can't seem to grasp exactly how the fight is unfolding, I had the same problem in book for when Rand fought Asmodean. I guess I'll become accustomed to it.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 30, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _Contains Knife of Dreams spoilers_ 



So obviously that is Rand as he is missing a hand nowadays. The dragon tattoos are a subtle hint, too. 

But is that Elayne in the background? Her dress seems too plain for an Aes Sedai Queen though.
It could be the Seanchan woman (Alivia?) who is supposed to help Rand die. I don't remember her description.





Tyrael said:


> Americans do tend to get screwed over when it comes to covers in the fantasy genre.


Meh, I like covers with characters and settings. Although, I can see the appeal of the more stylized covers.


KidTony said:


> I know that's how the story goes, but I much liked how it was in the earlier books where they fought with swords, etc.


Regular fighting does comeback in the later books. Rest assured.


> Right now, it seems like everything can be solved by spamming balefire X____X.


If they haven't mentioned it in the book yet, balefire has its negative effects.


> Perhaps is that i find the maigc battles is bit hard to follow, Jordan keeps saying the characters are weaving this and that, but t can't seem to grasp exactly how the fight is unfolding, I had the same problem in book for when Rand fought Asmodean. I guess I'll become accustomed to it.


Yeah, the One Power battles can be a bit confusing at times, but you'll get used to them. Hopefully.


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## KidTony (Jul 30, 2009)

> If they haven't mentioned it in the book yet, balefire has its negative effects.



They said if you use it too much it can disrupt the lace and whatnot because it erases things from ever being, but imo that's kind of a wash. Hasn't stopped Rand yet from spamming Cero-sized blasts of it.



> Regular fighting does comeback in the later books. Rest assured.



Good to hear.

EDIT: eh... i have a question

Maybe it's the fact that im listening to the audiobooks instead of reading, but i'm not sure what's going on in regards to Moghedien. In Book five Nynaeve captured her in telaranreod, but when she left it it was stated that Moghedien would be set free. Now I'm reading (listening to, actually) Lord of Chaos and in the prologue it is revealed that Moghedien was actually Marrigen or whatnot and that she's been captured. So my question is, will this be explained later on??? Because my audio-book is either missing some files or something else is going on, this just came out of nowhere...


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## Nimander (Jul 30, 2009)

KidTony said:


> They said if you use it too much it can disrupt the lace and whatnot because it erases things from ever being, but imo that's kind of a wash. Hasn't stopped Rand yet from spamming Cero-sized blasts of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Moghedien reveal was kinda iffy, and it was one piece of writing I think RJ could've done better on.  But IIRC it basically goes like this: Nynaeve figured out that Marigan was Moghedien, and while she was trapped in Telaranrhiod (?) she was collared in real life.  So when Marigan/Moghedien woke up, she was basically screwed.  

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, cause it's been a while since I've read this book and I may have gotten something wrong.


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## KidTony (Jul 30, 2009)

lol, i thought i was going as crazy as rand for a second there


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 30, 2009)

KidTony said:


> They said if you use it too much it can disrupt the lace and whatnot because it erases things from ever being, but imo that's kind of a wash. Hasn't stopped Rand yet from spamming Cero-sized blasts of it.


Rand may not have been told... yet.


> Maybe it's the fact that im listening to the audiobooks instead of reading, but i'm not sure what's going on in regards to Moghedien. In Book five Nynaeve captured her in telaranreod, but when she left it it was stated that Moghedien would be set free. Now I'm reading (listening to, actually) Lord of Chaos and in the prologue it is revealed that Moghedien was actually Marrigen or whatnot and that she's been captured. So my question is, will this be explained later on??? Because my audio-book is either missing some files or something else is going on, this just came out of nowhere...


Like 1TrueSensei, I haven't read those particular books recently so it'll be somewhat guesswork on my part. From what I can remember, the a'dam in _Tel'aran'rhiod_ would disappear at some point without Nynaeve to maintain it, but with _Tel'aran'rhiod_'s effect on the real world, they were able to tell Marigan was Moghedien.

I'll check on it tomorrow to see if I can figure it out.


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## Nimander (Jul 31, 2009)

In a situation like this, Wikipedia is your friend


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 2, 2009)

So I finally got around to rereading those parts of the books. Nynaeve had Moghedien trapped by the _a'dam_ in _Tel'aran'rhiod_ and used her to help kill Rahvin and heal Rand. Afterwards, she didn't want to let Moghedien go, which would happen if Nynaeve left _Tel'aran'rhiod_ since she wouldn't be able to hold the _a'dam_ in existence.

However, Nynaeve came to realize that Moghedien was someone in Salidar from some of her comments and knowledge, so Nynaeve created a cup of forkroot tea and force fed it to Moghedien. Since things that happen to dreamers in _Tel'aran'rhiod_ happen to the person in the real world and since forkroot tea does a number on channelers, Nynaeve and Elayne were able to see that Marigan was Moghedien by recognizing the effects of drinking forkroot tea.

Then, using Elayne's version of the _a'dam_, they recaptured Moghedien.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 2, 2009)

Probably one of the better parts of this series is how sex/rape isn't some drawn out affair. The incident with Moghedien being violated by Shaidar Haran is an excellent example, readers know it happens, but Jordan doesn't get perverse about it like other authors in the genre.

Even though this is my favorite series, I've come to hate most of the characters and characterizations. I think it may be because I've read each individual book 20+ times (holidays, boredom, etc), but I nitpick now. My deepest loathing would have to go to Perrin and his useless wife Faile. Matrim is one of the only character I actually like (after encounter with the eelfinn), with Moraine and some of the Forsaken.

Also, Wheel of Time audiobooks are perhaps some of the best I've had, except the first encounter with the Illuminators where Aludra sounds like my worst impressions of a Brooklyn accent. And when Min was first introduced.


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## Magus (Aug 3, 2009)

Surprised nobody has posted this yet, but there?s a review by Jason of _The Gathering Storm_ over on Dragonmount. Nothing really spoilery, but it sounds like the book turned out pretty well. Hopefully this helps anxious WoT fans sleep a little easier at night.

The Gathering Storm


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## Nimander (Aug 4, 2009)

sethblodia said:


> Probably one of the better parts of this series is how sex/rape isn't some drawn out affair. The incident with Moghedien being violated by Shaidar Haran is an excellent example, readers know it happens, but Jordan doesn't get perverse about it like other authors in the genre.



:amazed

*I never picked that up.  Honestly.  And I've probably read the series three times, possibly four.  

Wow.  I can't believe that went over my head.  Then again, the whole "Dumbeldore is gay" thing went way, way over my head too so I guess I shouldn't be surprise*



> Even though this is my favorite series, I've come to hate most of the characters and characterizations. I think it may be because I've read each individual book 20+ times (holidays, boredom, etc), but I nitpick now. My deepest loathing would have to go to Perrin and his useless wife Faile. Matrim is one of the only character I actually like (after encounter with the eelfinn), with Moraine and some of the Forsaken.



*Yeah, that's why if I'm gonna reread a series, there has to be at least a one-and-a-half/two year gap from when I read it before.  Keeps the enjoyment fresh, my friend.  And yes, Mat kicks unholy amounts of ass when he comes into his own.  He is by far my favorite character in the series, and probably one of my favorite protagonists in fantasy period.  And trust me, I have a long list from which I could've chosen.*



> Also, Wheel of Time audiobooks are perhaps some of the best I've had, except the first encounter with the Illuminators where Aludra sounds like my worst impressions of a Brooklyn accent. And when Min was first introduced.


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## Damaris (Aug 6, 2009)

MajSpike said:


> Surprised nobody has posted this yet, but there?s a review by Jason of _The Gathering Storm_ over on Dragonmount. Nothing really spoilery, but it sounds like the book turned out pretty well. Hopefully this helps anxious WoT fans sleep a little easier at night.
> 
> The Gathering Storm



Now I'm even more excited. 

I can't wait, I can't wait, I can't wait!

I'm kinda glad he mentioned more Rand angst. I know I'm a minority, but I love seeing Rand angst.


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## Jimmy Jazz (Aug 8, 2009)

Well I posted in the "currently reading" thread but may as well here, too:

I recently started on the first in the series and I have to say it's not a very inspiring read; the characters are very flat as is the hackneyed "chased by a hooded stranger" plot device. But I have it on good authority it picks up so will continue to long haul.


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## KidTony (Aug 8, 2009)

^ WOT is a 'classic' sort of fantasy, very LOTR-esque. Don't expect genre-bending twists or innovative surprises in this series. It is very straight-forward, and creative in its own right, but it does not deviate from that 'classic' mold. It is really a longer, more accessible LOTR.


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## Damaris (Aug 8, 2009)

Jimmy Jazz said:


> Well I posted in the "currently reading" thread but may as well here, too:
> 
> I recently started on the first in the series and I have to say it's not a very inspiring read; the characters are very flat as is the hackneyed "chased by a hooded stranger" plot device. But I have it on good authority it picks up so will continue to long haul.



These were my exact same thoughts the first time I read it 

It starts off generic, but the characters are fleshed out a bazillion times over through the course of the series and things get _a lot_ more interesting.


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## Corlock (Aug 9, 2009)

KidTony said:


> Finished "The Fires of Heaven'', I'll start on ''Lord of Chaos'' tonight. I have mixed feelings about FoH. First, I'm getting a bit tired of all the magic. I know that's how the story goes, but I much liked how it was in the earlier books where they fought with swords, etc. Right now, it seems like everything can be solved by spamming balefire X____X. I was surprised that Lanfear died, I was expecting Moiraine, but not Lanfear since I thought she'd make it all the way to the last book. The obsession with Rand she had seemed like a nice subplot that Jordan would continue to exploit, at least i enjoyed all of Rand's meetings with her with all the sexual innuendo, ect. Moirane I'm pretty sure is not dead. I think I saw a cover of 'Knife of Dreams' and I'm not sure (don't tell me) but I think it was her on that cover, so I guess Lanfear might not be dead either.



When you've gotten to the introduction of Osan'gar and Aran'gar you will begin to understand the extreme importance of Rand using balefire in those early battles with the Forsaken.  You will then think that Cadsuane is utterly stupid in, I think it's book eleven, with a certain comment of hers to Rand.

Also, it's not the size of the balefire burst that's important, but it's duration and the amount of power that goes into it.  Small bursts of balefire don't do a whole lot of damage to the pattern because they only burn back a few seconds or minutes.  But an extended burst with a lot of the one power behind it, that could potentially burn back a few years or decades of a person's life, undoing everything they did in that time, so it is quite dangerous.

As to the magic battles, I don't know, I've never quite found them confusing, but then that's because for the most part the weaves aren't ever named for us, so I don't try to figure out what character's are weaving until I see the effects.  My advice, don't try to guess what they're going to do.  Just read and find out, and Jordan was so found of saying.

Another thing you might want to do, get the differences between the One Power, the True Source, and the True Power straight, that will help you immensely.  I will not explain them because that could lead to spoilers for you.  The names themselves I can't say I really view as such.


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## Damaris (Aug 10, 2009)

Corlock said:


> Another thing you might want to do, get the differences between the One Power, the True Source, and the True Power straight, that will help you immensely.  I will not explain them because that could lead to spoilers for you.  The names themselves I can't say I really view as such.



Wait what.

I've read all the books and I was always under the impression that the One Power was the same thing as the True Source.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 10, 2009)

Marina said:


> I've read all the books and I was always under the impression that the One Power was the same thing as the True Source.


Yes, the One Power and the True Source are the same, but the True Power is the energy that seems to stem from the Dark One. I know I've mixed the terms up a bit before.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 11, 2009)

> Right now, it seems like everything can be solved by spamming balefire X____X.


At all the wrong moments.


> Right now I'm halfway through listening to Book six. Pace has slowed down quite a bit.


you could say that.


KidTony said:


> ^ WOT is a 'classic' sort of fantasy, very LOTR-esque. Don't expect genre-bending twists or innovative surprises in this series. It is very straight-forward, and creative in its own right, but it does not deviate from that 'classic' mold. It is really a longer, more accessible LOTR.


I really don't think they are as similar as you are putting out, aside from the staple fantasy archetypes. The first book suffers the most from that, then the series basically develops into its own world.

Unlike Terry Goodkind. lol, it is as if he just changed the characters names and started preaching.


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## Corlock (Aug 13, 2009)

The One Power and the True Source are related.  The One Power stems from the True Source, whether or not they are exactly the same is a mystery.  As to the True Power, that comes from the Dark One, in some fashion.


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## KidTony (Aug 14, 2009)

Finished with LOC. I enjoyed the book much more than i did Fires of Heaven. Pace slowed down quite a bit, but i didn't have that much of a problem with it this time as i did with the last book. The climax, unlike the fight with Rahvin at the end of the last book which was a snooze was awesome. The only really big fight in the series after the conclusion of book 2, and Perrin's fight with the trollocs in Emond's field in book 4, and it was pretty well done. I really got into the characters too, coming to like min a lot more (though I wish Aviendha had more screen time this book, she is my favorite of Rand's girls) and specially Rand. OMG I got so PISSED when the Aes Sedai from Tar Valon kidnapped Rand and made him ride in a chest, beating him up every day. I was so pissed, I wanted rand to bust out and show them bitches whose the boss. The book ended near there so we didn't see much of what became of them, but i hope next book he stills them bitches or something and makes them cry. And lol Gallina GTFO. The part where Rand was was about to burst out of the chest by breaking the shield and he was doing it slowly, I was almost like Lews Therin in his head lol, that was so awesome. And Nyneave healed stealing 
Suin Sanche is back 



Overall i really liked this book. Much better than Foh, even though the pace was pretty slow.

onto book 7


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## Nimander (Aug 14, 2009)

Robert Jordan subjected Rand to ordeals that only proved to make his heart harder and harder.  This comes into play in the later books, and it is gonna play a huge part in Rand's character development during the concluding books.  

But yeah, one of the few reasons I like Rand's character is because of the way you see him steadily change over the course of the series.  He brings to mind other fictional characters like Anakin Skywalker, whose complete change in personality is shown, along with the events and factors that brought about that change (this is one of the few things that George Lucas did right in the latter Star Wars movies IMO, though I still think he could've done it better).

Anyway, I look at Rand as a psychological study of the hero archetype, and what decisions he makes when the whole world literally rests on his shoulders.  His increasing coldness, balanced with Rand's one soft (or weak, depending on how you look at it) spot in refusing to kill any women (something that I feel is gonna be pivotal in the Final Battle, as that is one of his few commonly known weaknesses), makes him an intriguing character.  Despite how much he tells himself he has to be hard to be strong, there's still a core within him that is unshaken by the immense pressures he feels in his struggles.  This, more than anything else, is what kept me interested in his character.

Anyway, let me stop my rant and finish off on this note: you'll hella enjoy the series when Mat finally comes into his own.  He is easily one of my favorite protagonists in fantasy.  Period.  I just think his character is so cool and realistic in a world where the amazing happens everyday.  Let me stop typing now lol.


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## Tyrael (Aug 15, 2009)

Rand would have been heavily inspired by the character of Paul Atreidis-in fact, there is a huge _Dune_ influence throughout the series, perhaps even more marked as that of _LotR_'s influence on the book. The whole book series is about how you should beware of heroes (as well as a shitload of other themes, concepts and ideas).

If the examination of heroes interests you then it might be an idea to look it up. If not, well it's a bloody good book anyway.


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## martryn (Aug 15, 2009)

the review site posted at the top of the page said:
			
		

> Oh, and regarding Asmodean….
> 
> …
> 
> Read And Find Out.



HOLY FUCKING MOTHER OF FUCKING HOLIES OF SHIT FUCKERS!


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## Nimander (Aug 15, 2009)

martryn said:


> HOLY FUCKING MOTHER OF FUCKING HOLIES OF SHIT FUCKERS!



:WOW

Damn, I'm looking forward to this book.  My birthday is Nov. 1st, and it's my 21st at that, so this is definitely gonna be one of my birthday wishes.  

And I for one cannot wait to read Egwene's storyline.  Next to Mat she's probably my favorite character in the series, because she got quite a bit of development herself.  Her progression from side character and, IMO, plot device in _Eye of the World_ to something completely different (I won't spoil those who haven't read that far), along with the cleverness and survival instincts she brings to the table, makes her an interesting read.  Her development is one of the ones I'm looking forward to the most in the series, especially since despite how much I love Mat's character, I can kind of already see what RJ intended to do with him in the finale.

Oh, and, once again, :WOW

Misgivings about the conclusion being split into four aside, I have a feeling this'll be a good, good book.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 15, 2009)

I bet it was aids... it takes someone sooner than they think.

I hope Mat Demandred & moridin have enormous roles in this book, I'm kind of sick of hearing about the rebel Aes Sedai and Elayne.


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## Tyrael (Aug 15, 2009)

Egwene is a funny one; most of the time she's been annoying and boring, but in the last few books her storyline gathers momentum and feels like it's heading towards something big. I agree that it should be really pretty interesting to see where she's going.



1TrueSensei said:


> Misgivings about the conclusion being split into four aside, I have a feeling this'll be a good, good book.



Split into four? I check Sanderson's blog semi-regularly, and I've never read anything about that.


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## martryn (Aug 15, 2009)

Never really liked the arrogance of Egwene and Elayne.  I mean, Rand, Mat,and Perrin have accomplished some heavy shit, and even Thom is a fucking badass, but they're all completely grounded.  The fucking chicks in these novels seem to think that their fight and their plight are the only ones that matter and I feel they don't properly recognize how fucking awesome the rest of the characters are.  Don't give them enough recognition.


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## Corlock (Aug 15, 2009)

Egwene's done some pretty impressive stuff herself if you really sit back and think about it, and she's learned some humility in the last few books.  I've started to like her more since a certain promotion of hers.  That sort of forced her to recognize other people's abilities, if only so she could then manipulate them.

And Elyane herself is getting a bit of a reality check as well.  Her real problem is that she doesn't realize how well Rand can play the Great Game now, and so doesn't look at his actions from that perspective.  Well, in one regard mostly.  She's learning slowly though.

Although, really, that's Rand's one huge advantage, no one realizes how good at the Great Game he's become.  They all still think him a country woolhead.  Of course, it's also the fact that Rand will take the most logical course in matters, that conceivably lead to the least casualties overall.  I'm thinking mostly of the Lords of Borderlands in that regard, and how utterly stupid their current actions are.


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## Tyrael (Aug 15, 2009)

Matt especially got a rough time.

But yeah, the woman in these books are, well...I think the Aes Sadei pretty much provided a microcosm view into the problems. A lot of braid pulling and skirt smoothing all round.


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## Nimander (Aug 15, 2009)

martryn said:


> Never really liked the arrogance of Egwene and Elayne.  I mean, Rand, Mat,and Perrin have accomplished some heavy shit, and even Thom is a fucking badass, but they're all completely grounded.  The fucking chicks in these novels seem to think that their fight and their plight are the only ones that matter and I feel they don't properly recognize how fucking awesome the rest of the characters are.  Don't give them enough recognition.



Once again, I think RJ did that for a reason.  By the tone of the last few books, along with some foreshadowings, it seems very likely that


*Spoiler*: __ 



either _saidar_, or even both sides of the One Power, may not be accessible to humans long after the Final Battle, so the role of the Aes Sedai in international affairs is going to drastically decrease.  Egwene, and 99% of the Aes Sedai, do have distinctly arrogant views of the world, something that's gonna make it that much harder to deal with Rand.  So, the same way that Rand needs to rediscover his humanity in order for the Light to have a chance, the Aes Sedai need to swallow some jumbo-sized humility pills and make some compromises and concessions because the world is gonna move beyond them.






Corlock said:


> Egwene's done some pretty impressive stuff herself if you really sit back and think about it, and she's learned some humility in the last few books.  I've started to like her more since a certain promotion of hers.  That sort of forced her to recognize other people's abilities, if only so she could then manipulate them.
> 
> And Elyane herself is getting a bit of a reality check as well.  Her real problem is that she doesn't realize how well Rand can play the Great Game now, and so doesn't look at his actions from that perspective.  Well, in one regard mostly.  She's learning slowly though.
> 
> Although, really, that's Rand's one huge advantage, no one realizes how good at the Great Game he's become.  They all still think him a country woolhead.  Of course, it's also the fact that Rand will take the most logical course in matters, that conceivably lead to the least casualties overall.  I'm thinking mostly of the Lords of Borderlands in that regard, and how utterly stupid their current actions are.



Rand has become very good at the Great Game, but I think that isn't necessarily what's gonna carry him through the day.  His arguable insanity is steadily increasing as the series progresses, and I believe that's where he's gonna find the determining factor for his success.  As they say, some of the greatest geniuses have been insane, and what many others see as a disability in Rand is gonna turn out, I think, to be what determines either victory or defeat.


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## attackoflance (Aug 15, 2009)

I still don't know where some people are getting the number 4 from...its being split into 3..


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## Nae'blis (Aug 15, 2009)

^ lol, just wishful thinking, hoping the story would last forever (mind you I think that was Jordans intentions with exorbitant attention to drivel in the past few books).


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## Pan-on (Aug 15, 2009)

1TrueSensei said:


> Once again, I think RJ did that for a reason.  By the tone of the last few books, along with some foreshadowings, it seems very likely that
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Nah I think Jordan just thought strong women = ungrateful for some reason, at least in the main cultures, he has some weird ideas about women in general.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 15, 2009)

Women in Jordans work are treated with a reverence bordering on unhealthy, even though they always end up as an annoying damsel scrappy.


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## Corlock (Aug 15, 2009)

1TrueSensei said:


> Rand has become very good at the Great Game, but I think that isn't necessarily what's gonna carry him through the day.  His arguable insanity is steadily increasing as the series progresses, and I believe that's where he's gonna find the determining factor for his success.  As they say, some of the greatest geniuses have been insane, and what many others see as a disability in Rand is gonna turn out, I think, to be what determines either victory or defeat.



Oh, that's what's going to determine his victory over the Shadow, but the fact of the matter is, that the nobles that he deals with don't think he could possibly be as good at the Great Game as he is.  That's really what I meant.


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## Nimander (Aug 18, 2009)

Ah.  Understood

So, who thinks we'll finally find out


*Spoiler*: __ 



Moridin's




true identity in _The Gathering Storm_?


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## Damaris (Aug 18, 2009)

1TrueSensei said:


> Ah.  Understood
> 
> So, who thinks we'll finally find out
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I thought it was pretty obvious he was Ishamael (I know I butchered that spelling) reborn?


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## Nimander (Aug 19, 2009)

Really?  Huh.  Looks like I have to go back and read through the series again.

That's the only problem with epic fantasy like this: it's easy to forget some very minor details in the midst of the massive world written in the series.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 19, 2009)

1TrueSensei said:


> Ah.  Understood
> 
> So, who thinks we'll finally find out
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



As Marina pointed out Moridin is Ishamael's reincarnation.
He's not Demandred, Semirhage, Graendal, Mesaana, or Moghedien since they haven't died yet.
He's not Aginor/Osan'gar, Balthamel/Aran'gar, or Lanfear/Cyndane since they've already been resurrected.
He's not Be'lal, Rahvin, or Sammael since they can't be resurrected.
That leaves Ishmael or Asmodeon, and Moridin's thoughts and actions don't seem like Asmodeon's.


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## Corlock (Aug 20, 2009)

What everyone else has said.  Reread the thoughts of both characters and you'll see.  Pay special attention to Dragonmount, the Prologue for Eye of the World.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Aug 20, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> Women in Jordans work are treated with a reverence bordering on unhealthy, even though they always end up as an annoying damsel scrappy.


Well he's drawing on the view of women from the antebellum south/medieval chivalric tradition and places it in a society with a matriarchal power structure which is unsurprising since for the last 3500~ years the only people with access to supernatural power have been women.

I can't wait for TGS.

I loved Winter's Heart and the Knife of Dreams a lot, perfect 10s in my opinion. If you read books 9, 10 and 11 consecutively even Crossroads of Twilight is good. Jordan just didn't do good pacing/structural wise so Crossroads doesn't really work as stand alone novel. It was a much need transition between two awesome action packed story arts, but it really should have divided between Winter's Heart and Knife of Dreams. Still the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



cleansing of saidin in Winter's Heart and Mat's unparalleled badassery in Knife of Dreams 


 was amazing. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



The capture of Semirhage and Nynaeve's raising of the Golden Crane was also great. I love politics too, so I really enjoyed how Elayne manages to take the throne.


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## KidTony (Aug 21, 2009)

just a quick update. I'm about halfway done (a little less) with A crown of Swords, so far so good. Lot's of character development from the girls.


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## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

I finished it. Anyways, here are my thoughts:

First of all, I liked this book. There were a lot of flaws, mainly pacing wise, but overall i liked it. I understand what they mean when people say the series takes a dip in quality, and that most of all i think has to do with pace. If i didn't have the rest of the books readily available for me to read the moment i finished this one i would have been disappointed with it. For all the amount of pages that Jordan writes, he seems to get very little done. I remember that I was halfway through it and was beginning to ask myself when the hell was anything going to happen. 

Another thing I don't think I'll ever get used to is the one power battles. I just don't like them; I can't tell what the hell is going on half the time, and even when i do I'd much rather be seeing a sword fight or something else. One of the biggest problems that i see with this series is the lack of epic battles. When I think 'epic fantasy' i think grand battles. Huge armies going against each other, full chapters devoted to the clash of hundredths of thousands, battle strategy, etc. It seems that in this series any time that such a battle might be appropriate, Jordan decides to have it in the background and instead focus on Rand teleporting here and there and spamming balefire at *insert forsaken of the day here* and so on. I have to conclude that Jordan decides to skip these battles because he's just not good at writing them, which is kind of a shame because I thought he did a decent job in book 4 with the trollocs attacking the two rivers, if not in the climax of book six.

Anyway, aside from pacing and lack of the action i was expecting, i liked the book. I'm beginning to get why you guys love Mat so much, he's awesome! I kind of wish one of the books was mostly about him. The whole thing about the queen of Ebou Dar pretty much forcing him was hilarious, and the ending with the seanchen left me very intrigued as to what's next for mat. I think the whole thing about the daughter of the nine moons is going to come into play next, and i look forward to it. 

So yeah, overall i thought the book was good, if not as good as book six. I started Path of daggers today as well.


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## martryn (Aug 27, 2009)

I wish I could comment more on your first read through, though I can't remember exactly what has happened up to that point in the series and I don't want to spoil anything for you.  

If you go back and reread the "boring" chapters later on, when you've caught up with the series, you can find a lot of interesting bits that you probably missed.  I started reading the Wheel of Time wiki and they'll make reference to a character in passing, and that character will then show up four or five books later and become a member of someone's entourage and you'd never think it's the same character because you'd have totally forgot the one paragraph devoted to describing them in the earlier book.  Especially when they're not using the same name anymore. 

Though I was impressed with Mat by the middle of book three.  After a sickly, hardly-able-to-stand Mat was able to dispatch Galad and Gawain, simultaneously, and with relative ease....  and then later on reading just how badass the two of them are.  I mean, fuck.  Mat has some hidden skills.  

I think Mat sits out an entire book, but returns in force with large parts of the next few books about him and his actions.  And the Daughter of the Nine Moons, that entire encounter.... fuck.  That's a good one.  I've read and reread that one part multiple times.


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## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

I can't wait for that daughter of the nine moon part I just know it's going to be fucking epic! I mean, i was really impressed with the whole tylin-mat sub plot and actually felt kind of sad nothing really substantial was going to come from that. So yeah, I can't wait for the mat stuff!


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## Corlock (Aug 30, 2009)

KidTony said:


> . One of the biggest problems that i see with this series is the lack of epic battles. When I think 'epic fantasy' i think grand battles. Huge armies going against each other, full chapters devoted to the clash of hundredths of thousands, battle strategy, etc. It seems that in this series any time that such a battle might be appropriate, Jordan decides to have it in the background and instead focus on Rand teleporting here and there and spamming balefire at *insert forsaken of the day here* and so on. I have to conclude that Jordan decides to skip these battles because he's just not good at writing them, which is kind of a shame because I thought he did a decent job in book 4 with the trollocs attacking the two rivers, if not in the climax of book six.



One of the things I think you need to keep in mind is that Jordan served in Vietnam.  I have a very strong suspicion that his time in that "conflict", since the US never actually officially declared it a war, has heavily influenced how he writes battles.  Also his style influences that as well.

Jordan doesn't care about the armies, he cares about the characters, and so he will focus on what specific characters are doing during these epic battles.  Think of that one that Mat was riding around in with the Aiel.  This also ties somewhat into what his experiences in Vietnam were probably like.  That wasn't a war that was fought as rank upon rank of troops facing rank upon rank of troops.  It was squad based warfare, and that's how Jordan thinks of it.  You only see the confusion of the battle from the point of view of the squad that he's currently following.  And to him battles are always confusing, to an extent.

Even when we finally see the Last Battle, and that will be the truly epic sort of battle you'll want to see, I don't imagine we'll see it from a pulled away viewpoint, but rather from the point of view of possibly multiple small groups of people.  Well, I can't actually say that for certain, given that Jordan won't be writing it, but that is, I imagine how he would have written it, given how he treated all the battles previously within the series.  All based on his experience with squad based warfare back in Vietnam, I would think.


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## KidTony (Aug 30, 2009)

Well I understand that, but I'd still would like to see those types of battles in the series, it's one of the draws of epic fantasy for me. The focusing just on certain characters aspect is fine, but it does get repetitive after a while, specially if it's a one power battle which most likely involve chasing the guy through several portals and overwhelming them with magic in the end. We saw it vs Ishamael, we saw it vs Asmodean, we saw it vs Rhavin, and then again with Samael, it gets repetitive. It also annoys me for example how when a battle starts, he suddenly cuts to the end, like when mat killed Culadin, or the climax of the third book. It kind of does come across as it being one of his deficiencies. I believe people would bitch a lot less about not much happening if we had more epic climaxes that just didn't involve Rand facing off against a forsaken by himself. In Book five and seven it could have added a lot more to what i thought were particularly uneventful books (in terms of action). I'm kind of exited to see if  Sanderson takes a different approach in the last three books.

Anyway, haven' gotten much reading done since I've been busy, i expect to get some done tonight. I'm about 3 chapters into PoD, hoping for a lot of Mat in this one.


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## Corlock (Aug 30, 2009)

Yeah, Mat is utterly absent from PoD, sorry, it pissed me off a hell of a lot too.  It was especially annoying back when you then had to wait for Winter's Heart to come out.  But as you get into the later books, all those seemingly unimportant scenes start becoming more important, as they lay the ground work for what become important plots.

As to the one power battles, Samael is the last Forsaken that Rand confronts for a while, and so after that point any battles with the One Power become rather different.  Especially as more and more characters are introduced who can channel, all thanks to a certain action of Rand's.


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## KidTony (Aug 31, 2009)

Damn. I was told that Mat was absent for one entire book, but I was didn't expect it to be this one! Well, i guess it's win some, lose some. No mat here, but that means a lot of mat then next couple of books.

By the way, I have the prequel New Spring as well. Do you recomend me reading (listening to actually) that one? I wanted to start with Song of Ice and Fire after i finished book 11, because I'm generally not a fan of prequels, but what can you tell me about that book? Is it a must read?


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## Nimander (Aug 31, 2009)

Song of Ice and Fire drew me in very quickly, which a story rarely does.  It's definitely worth reading, and the fact that you're starting it now means that you didn't have to wait years and years for books to come out (though you may have to wait years and years for the next book to come out: damn you, GRRM).  But I will definitely give the prose and character development, along with some of the politics in this story, its kudos.  It's not badly written all.

Malazan Book of the Fallen and Wheel of Time still own it though.


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## KidTony (Aug 31, 2009)

^ Well, according to just about anyone but you that I've talked to about fantasy books, song of ice and fire is the best, followed by malazan. They generally seem to be of the opinion that WOT takes a serious dip in quality towards the latter books as well (with a renaissance in book 11), and while i don't think this 'dip' is as big as some people have made it seem, i do agree that in WOT, the earlier books were better.

Everyone and their moms have vouched for song and malazan and told me they are the best.


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## martryn (Sep 1, 2009)

> By the way, I have the prequel New Spring as well. Do you recomend me reading (listening to actually) that one? I wanted to start with Song of Ice and Fire after i finished book 11, because I'm generally not a fan of prequels, but what can you tell me about that book? Is it a must read?



The prequel is a quick read.  I started and finished it the same day, and was not disappointed.  I'd go ahead and read it now.  It doesn't spoil anything for the novels, but it does add to the backstory of the world. 

I, personally, would put WoT and SoIaF on the same level.  They both bring something different to the table.  Song of Ice and Fire is definitely fucking fantastic, very well written, has excellent pacing, and really throws fantasy for a loop.  

Course, if you really wanted to read great fucking fantasy, read Stephen R Donaldson.  He gets no credit, but his stuff is generally considered by true fantasy aficionados, not a bunch of teenagers, as being the only thing on par with Tolkien.   People seem to ignore anything written before 1990 for some reason.  The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is a series of three trilogies, each one stand alone.  Plus, he's written the greatest achievement in Science Fiction ever with his Gap series.  And his short stories are good as well.


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## Tyrael (Sep 1, 2009)

The first _ASoIaF_ book is pretty good, but I didn't find it anywhere near to being as good as the hype suggested. Hell, I didn't even think it was that much better than _The Wizard's First Rule_, which is the popular thing to hate in high fantasy.

I generally consider the four big names in epic fantasy as Jordan, Donaldson, Martin and Erikson, although, as Martryn pointed out, Donaldson is often overlooked as of late. One fantasy that has had the genre's high brow dudes salivating over it is Gene Wolfe-his stuff is really unique and has not much in line with traditional storytelling though, so it's not an action fest. The most often cited one seems to be _The Book of the New Sun_. More recent stuff that's awesome is Mieville's _Perdido Street Station_ and Lynch's _The Lies of Locke Lamora_.

/genre rant

But yeah, I've yet to read _New Spring_. I'm saving it for when I do my big reread when the new books are out. Not decided if I can wait 'till 2011 though.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 1, 2009)

Claiming ASoIaF isn't above god-level is grounds to start massive fanny-wobbling; I sort of liked it but fuck it isn't that awesome. The only fantasy I would put clearly above the rest would be Malazan just for sheer world-building and a few other things I hadn't really noticed in the genre.

New Spring is a quick read, I must have read it in an afternoon. Some old names get fleshed out a bit more, etc everything martryn posted.



> Yeah, Mat is utterly absent from PoD, sorry, it pissed me off a hell of a lot too. It was especially annoying back when you then had to wait for Winter's Heart to come out. But as you get into the later books, all those seemingly unimportant scenes start becoming more important, as they lay the ground work for what become important plots.


I didn't mind Mats absence from the book, I mean, given what had happened to him it's understandable. Also, I consider Path of Daggers the worst of the series.


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## Pan-on (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree with Martyns post for the most part, although I haven't read any donaldson or malazan (Malazan has some incredibly mixed reviews from what I've heard)

The wizard's first rule is actually pretty good but the series gets progressively worse from then on, the later ones being awful for a variety of reasons.

New Spring is worth a read if you are reading WoT although its got less action than the rest of the series, still not a bad little read however.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 2, 2009)

Wizard's First Rule was really accessible to me when I read it, simple and brilliant with a seemingly compact storyline. Malazan just had too much information for me the first time I read it; it required it's own manual and 1000-page sparknotes.

^ 
*Spoiler*: __ 



not to mention Lan ascends to higher levels of ubermensch. he benefited the most out of New Spring in terms of general character development and backstory


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## martryn (Sep 2, 2009)

> The first ASoIaF book is pretty good, but I didn't find it anywhere near to being as good as the hype suggested. Hell, I didn't even think it was that much better than The Wizard's First Rule, which is the popular thing to hate in high fantasy.



Goodkind's first three books were actually quite good for a read.  Not excellent fantasy, but the start of a great series.  He just decided to preach when he realized people will buy his books regardless of what he writes about.  To this day I wonder how his series would have ended if he had just kept the quality up. 

My favorite fantasy novel of all time was actually written by David Gemmell.  But that was only a single novel.  It'd be interesting to see if the rest of his book are as good. 



> I agree with Martyns post for the most part, although I haven't read any donaldson or malazan (Malazan has some incredibly mixed reviews from what I've heard)



Mary, or keiiya, my fiance, has the first few Malazan books.  I'm looking forward to reading them now that I've heard so much about the series.  Gotta finish up a few other ones first, though.


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## KidTony (Sep 2, 2009)

World Debate: Who Was Better – Pele Or Maradona?

I'm taking advice of what to read from this site. Almost everyone there hypes the shit out of AsoIF. If using words like 'gold on ink' (or something similar to that phrase) is not enough for anyone to think that series is god's shit i don't know what is. I'll most likely feel disappointed once i finish a game of thrones, since my expectations right now are so high, the series will most likely not live up to them.

After I'm done with WOT, I'll read AsoIF, then I'll read Malazan, then I'll read Farseer, and then we go from there.


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## martryn (Sep 2, 2009)

Interesting.  I don't know about that site, but it does highly recommend The Name of the Wind, which my fantasy friend writer claims is the greatest fantasy novel of all time, and since he's never really wrong about these things, I suppose I should listen as well and check out that book.  After I read Malazan, of course.


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## KidTony (Sep 2, 2009)

Yeah, they are VERY high on in the name of the wind. It's only one book so far, with the sequel 'A wise man's fear' coming out sometimes next year or so i've heard. I guess after Farseer that would be next, also I mean to check out lies of locke lamora and the first law trilogy which are very high with them too.


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## Nimander (Sep 2, 2009)

_The Name of the Wind_: awesome.  I love, and I mean absolutely love Patrick Rothfuss prose in that story.  It's just so freakin' well done.  

The only reason I place WoT and MBotF above writers like P.R. is because my preference leans towards the massive worldbuildings that Jordan and Erikson did.  And it is not easy to pull off successfully, let me tell you.  The fact that they not only pulled it off, but pulled it off well put them at the top of my list.

But, as far as strength of prose and fluidity of language and storytelling style, Rothfuss takes the win over these two, with Martin coming in some distance behind.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 5, 2009)

KidTony said:


> Damn. I was told that Mat was absent for one entire book, but I was didn't expect it to be this one! Well, i guess it's win some, lose some. No mat here, but that means a lot of mat then next couple of books.
> 
> By the way, I have the prequel New Spring as well. Do you recomend me reading (listening to actually) that one? I wanted to start with Song of Ice and Fire after i finished book 11, because I'm generally not a fan of prequels, but what can you tell me about that book? Is it a must read?



There's a series of battles towards the end of the book that you should like, a heavy mix of the one power and old fashioned steel. This book focuses a lot on Rand and on Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene.

This a perfect place to read New Spring. I think he wrote it after A Crown of Swords, and reading it before hand who have spoiled you about some things. 

By the way folks, the 1st chapter of The Gathering Storm was released for free by Tor, and the prologue comes out on the 17th for $2.99

Bleach Tournament Battledome Information Thread


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## Tyrael (Sep 5, 2009)

The prologue for $3 seems a bit...well, stupid. Who's going to just buy the prologue? This just looks like the publishers milking the huge fanbase.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 5, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> The prologue for $3 seems a bit...well, stupid. Who's going to just buy the prologue? This just looks like the publishers milking the huge fanbase.



Well, I have, each of the last 3 books I think. The prologue in these books have been huge, like 10% of the whole book so it's not that expensive.


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## Tyrael (Sep 5, 2009)

True enough, the prologues are pretty massive for WoT. It's just that charging to get the full preview (I'm dodgy about the idea of reading the first chapter before the prologue) seems a bit like cash grabbing.

Then again, if there are people who'll pay, all the power to them I guess. This whole fiction thing is a business ultimately.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 5, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> True enough, the prologues are pretty massive for WoT. It's just that charging to get the full preview (I'm dodgy about the idea of reading the first chapter before the prologue) seems a bit like cash grabbing.
> 
> Then again, if there are people who'll pay, all the power to them I guess. This whole fiction thing is a business ultimately.



It's pretty short, and given the WoT prologues penchant to focus on midlevel and minor characters, I'm pretty sure that chapter 1 which focuses on Rand hasn't spoiled me for the prologue.


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## Tyrael (Sep 5, 2009)

True enough.

Actually, I'm gonna go give the first chapter a look anyway. Just found out that they've emailed me back.

Edit-haha, I'm listening to the audio version of it. Rock 'n' roll.


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## KidTony (Sep 5, 2009)

So far i like path of Daggers, mainly because of Egwene and her slow transformation from powerless figurehead to powerful leader.


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## Damaris (Sep 6, 2009)

Egwene's development is one of my favorite parts of the whole series. She's one of the strongest female characters I've seen. Sometimes there are other series I wish she'd pop up in, just to give people a slap across the face.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 6, 2009)

Yakumo Fujii said:


> By the way folks, the 1st chapter of The Gathering Storm was released for free by Tor, and the prologue comes out on the 17th for $2.99



*Spoiler*: _Gathering Storm: Chapter 1_ 



I have a question about Rand's new sword: 





> Rand released Min and they both spun, Rand reaching for his sword—a useless gesture, now. The loss of his hand, though it wasn’t his primary sword hand, would leave him vulnerable if he were to face a skilled opponent. Even with _saidin_ to provide a far more potent weapon, his ﬁrst instinct was for the sword. He’d have to change that. It might get him killed someday.
> ...
> He fingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly-curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand--and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. _How odd, that they should find this now_, he thought, _and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding...._
> He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt _right_ beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly from Lews Therin's memories--but Rand's own.


Does anyone recognize the description from earlier in the series? It's supposed to be from his own memories so I guess that takes out the Aiel memories as well.
Also, do you think it might actually be an (ter') (sa') _angreal_? He mentions how his instinct is to reach for the sword before _saidin_, the people didn't know what they were giving him, and it feels "right" to be in his "hands."


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 6, 2009)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> *Spoiler*: _Gathering Storm: Chapter 1_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 





> And men cried out to the Creator, praying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, *and the great sword of justice defend us*. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
> 
> 
> from Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon, Author unknown, the Fourth Age



Artur Hawkwing's sword was named Justice and Rand saw it when Mat blew the Horn of Valere. If this is what is I'm not sure of the plot relevance. We'll probably see where it's found in the prologue which will give it some context. Perhaps it will help him make a deal with the Seanchan somehow.


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## Grrblt (Sep 6, 2009)

Yakumo Fujii said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



He shouldn't really have to make a deal with Seanchan anymore, right? With Mat being a pimp and all.


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## Damaris (Sep 6, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> He shouldn't really have to make a deal with Seanchan anymore, right? With Mat being a pimp and all.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Isn't Tuon's position still higher than Mat's though? And she still believes the Dragon has to kneel before her, according to the Prophecies. 

Is not just saying this because she wants the epicness of Tuon and Rand meeting up, not at all.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 6, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> He shouldn't really have to make a deal with Seanchan anymore, right? With Mat being a pimp and all.



*Spoiler*: __ 



At the end of Knife of Dreams though, Mat basically says "your not my enemy but your empire is". 

Rand has to negotiate a truce. He has to put a stop to the fighting in Arad Doman.


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## Grrblt (Sep 6, 2009)

Marina said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Sure she is. But Mat just needs to pimpslap her.






Yakumo Fujii said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



And I'm saying that if Mat does a little talk, Rand won't have to do anything except maybe a kneel. Tuon should be able to take control of the Seanchan on this side of the sea pretty easy.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 7, 2009)

Grrblt said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



She knows kung fu, as does her body guard, pimp slapping her will be difficult.

And her armies are so much bigger than Mat's she doesn't have to listen to him.

I don't think she'll listen to reason until she has tangible proof of the threat the Dark One poses. The Seanchan were so isolated that they don't really believe in shadowspawn and have all sorts of bizzare beliefs and superstitions. I'm eagerly awaiting for the scene were reality is rubbed in her face. Hopefully via an assassination attempt with myrddraal.





*Spoiler*: __ 



Oh, and going back to the 1st chapter of TGS, I think the important thing about that scene is it shows how paranoid and crazy Rand is getting. 





Also, I don't know if this has been posted here before but here's a link to some awesome WoT art, I think this guy's involved with the graphic novels somehow.

1


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## Esponer (Sep 7, 2009)

I need to re-read every book before the next one comes out a few days after my birthday. This is going to be rough going, I expect. I haven't picked up a Wheel of Time book in years now, and I'm certain I don't remember enough to just pick up the new book and continue.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I only hope the best character features in the next book. That being Rodel Ituralde, general of Arad Doman (listed as one of the five best). Can anyone remember – is he a Darkfriend or not? I think it was revealed that he was, but I'm not sure.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 7, 2009)

Esponer said:


> I need to re-read every book before the next one comes out a few days after my birthday. This is going to be rough going, I expect. I haven't picked up a Wheel of Time book in years now, and I'm certain I don't remember enough to just pick up the new book and continue.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Rand's in Arad Doman, so I'm sure it will feature him in a major way. 

Not a darkfriend, he's being manipulated by Graendal, who's been sending out contradictory orders with the King's seal on them, but he's cut contact and launched his own campaign to fight the Seanchan.


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## Corlock (Sep 7, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



In regards to the whole speculation on the Tuon/Rand plot point.  I've always found that quite interesting myself.  Mostly because the Prophecies in the land that Rand is from say, "He shall bind the Nine Moons to serve him."  This particular line has no real meaning to anyone on the main continent.  However, it would have particular meaning in Seanchan, yet no Seanchan characters seem aware of this particular line, at least not until the Forerunners/the Return.  

However, the Seanchan have a line about the dragon kneeling to the crystal throne, that I think is actually in the prophecies on both sides of the ocean.  And as I recall, there was speculation from the High Lady Suroth that the Prophecies were corrupted in some way, either on Rand's side of the ocean, or on the Seanchan side, so the question becomes which prophecy is true, or are both?

It seems obvious that the Seanchan prophecies would somehow omit the line about "He shall bind the Nine Moons to serve him."  Given that it would cast doubt upon the invincible might of the line of the empereors in some respect.  It's also interesting to be reminded of what the collar and bracelets made to control a man will do to a woman who wears them and attempts to control a man.

If Tuon gets that collar on Rand she can in fact make him kneel to her.  However, according to Moghedien, who I don't think was lying about this particular fact, the longer she wears the bracelets, the more control Rand will have over her, until perhaps the power is reversed, and she is the one kneeling to him.  There was also Moggy's comment that the woman wearing the bracelets would need the man to remove them from her, just as much as he would need her to remove the collar from him.  And so in a sense, should Tuon ever get that collar on Rand, she will be able to make him kneel, but also bind herself to serve him eventually, with that very act.  And we do know that Tuon can wear an a'dam as a Sul'dam.  So she could wear the bracelets of that collar.  I've personally found the contradiction in those prophecies very interesting since it was revealed, and am quite anxious to see how it plays out.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 10, 2009)

Corlock said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Ishamael was never truly bound by the seals and popped out every 1000 years to ruin things. He's the one who made Artur Hawking paranoid about Aes Sedai, and it is speculated that he gave Artur's son Luthair a corrupted copy of the prophecies.

You could be right of course though that they edited them on their own accord.


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## martryn (Sep 10, 2009)

Anyone know where I can download a copy of the graphic novel?  I had a friend of mine tell me about it and said the art was really good.


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## The Bloody Nine (Sep 10, 2009)

Well i know they never finished the graphic novels due to finance issues but yeah i also heard they where good. If you find anything please post it here.


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## martryn (Sep 10, 2009)

> Well i know they never finished the graphic novels due to finance issues but yeah i also heard they where good. If you find anything please post it here.



Fuck, that was what I was afraid of.  No fucking love.


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## KidTony (Sep 12, 2009)

Finished Path of Daggers.

I liked the book about as much as Crown of Swords. Definitely not as much as the first four, but not any less than most of the following four. 

The climax, again, i was disappointed. It was great that we didn't have the standard forsaken chasing thing, but what happened was not much different. Rand has a one-power battle with a few rouge ashaman, and it ends in a rushed, abrupt form that you don't even know what actually happened. The same thing as in the other books where right in the thick of it cuts to the end--a very annoying an unnecessarily plot device that Jordan keeps using. 

I also missed mat a lot since he's easily my favorite male character in the series, and Perrin's presence was also negligible for the most part. Neither did i like the battles with the seanchen, further reinforcement of my beliefs that Jordan just isn't very good at writing military battles. 

The main problem with the four books that follow book four is pace, and path of daggers was no exception, it just wasn't a very action driven book unlike its namesake suggests. That being said, i did enjoy it, perhaps even a bit more than Crown of Swords (although not as much as LOC). To me this book was more of a 'setup' book for the ones to come. I loved Egwene's slow progress and development, to me it was the highlight of the novel. 

All in all, this one felt 'short' and not as complete as the others, even though i enjoyed it for the most part. Moving on to Winter's Heart, hoping to see more of Mat.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 13, 2009)

KidTony said:


> Finished Path of Daggers.
> 
> I liked the book about as much as Crown of Swords. Definitely not as much as the first four, but not any less than most of the following four.
> 
> ...



I think that's because he fought in Vietnam, and that's how the fighting was most of the time, rushed and abrupt. He's just writing what he knows.

There's a lot of good Mat stuff in the next book and the climax is great, Rand and co. really shine.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 13, 2009)

martryn said:


> Fuck, that was what I was afraid of.  No fucking love.



I believe that the 1st 7 issues out of 8 for the prequel New Spring have been released. 

I think a couple of issues for the Eye of the World have been released.


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## Dash (Sep 22, 2009)

I checked out my first Wheel of Time novel today. 'New Spring', did I make the right move picking this one up?


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## Damaris (Sep 22, 2009)

Dash said:


> I checked out my first Wheel of Time novel today. 'New Spring', did I make the right move picking this one up?



I guess so? 

It's a prequel that actually came out halfway through the series, haha. 

If you like it and pick up the first book in the series, The Eye of the World, you'll have some background info that will greatly help you out.


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## martryn (Sep 22, 2009)

New Spring was a pretty good read, but I read it when it came out, after reading the rest of the series.  It provides a lot of excellent background information, but I'm curious what reading it first will do if you haven't started Eye of the World.  I'm sure it's fine, I just wonder if it'll enrich your first read through of Eye of the World.


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## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2009)

I think the stylistic and structural differences between the two might feel a bit odd-but overall, I guess it can't hurt.


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## Yakumo Fujii (Sep 25, 2009)

Marina said:


> I guess so?
> 
> It's a prequel that actually came out halfway through the series, haha.
> 
> If you like it and pick up the first book in the series, The Eye of the World, you'll have some background info that will greatly help you out.



Kind of ruins all the mystery of the 1st book though, I wouldn't read it until after book 7.

Also chapter 2 of The Gathering Storm was released via audio file.
After reading/listening to the prologue and chapters 1 & 2 I have very high hopes for the novel.


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## KidTony (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm about 30% into Winter's Heart. Liking this one much more than the last two books. Very good stuff going on.


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## martryn (Sep 25, 2009)

The last three books in the series are all really pretty good.  

Apparently, and I'm just reading this now on Wikipedia, but Universal has acquired the rights for the feature films.  And apparently, from Wiki, mind you, they're planning on releasing a film called The Eye of the World.  The Eye of the World Wiki page says that there is a tentative release date for the film in 2011.  

I personally don't know how I feel about this.  I don't think many forms of media is suitable for the Wheel of Time.  Graphic novels would be cool, I guess.  Maybe an anime (or cartoon) adaptation, since it'll be special effects heavy.  But television or movies seem wrong.  The characters start as young adults in the first novel, and there are a lot of films they'd have to release for the series, with a lot of time between the first release and the last, but there won't be a lot of time passing in the novels.  14 books, with at least a dozen movies unless they edit heavily, which they might.  But still...  I guess if they only did ten movies for the series, and managed to film a few of them at a time, LotR style, they could release them over the course of ten years, with only five or so years of constant filming...

But if the first film flops (which it likely won't, given the fan base and the fact these sorts of movies tend to do well nowadays) then that's a lot of money in the hole.  And they're going to have to have a crazy budget, what with trollocs, the Ways or whatever, magic flying around, the crazy sets and tons of special effects....

I'm going to keep my eye peeled for more news.  Maybe I'll audition for a role.  That'd be cool.


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## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2009)

The story is waaaay too big to fit in film form. With it being so big there is plenty they could cut out - but what could they without making the narrative choppy? I have the suspicion they'll probably cut out stuff that'll be important later. Judging from Sanderson's comments, there is a lot of early stuff that we don't realise quite how important it is. I really can't see this being good. Phenomenally successful? Probably. Not good though.

Hell, even if they do cut out huge amounts of the story they will still have to make at least 14 films. I would think that if you were to give it proper treatment, then some of the books have a whole film trilogy worth of material.

Whilst there are plenty of other holes that can be picked at this project, I see that being the biggest problem.


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## martryn (Sep 25, 2009)

> The story is waaaay too big to fit in film form. With it being so big there is plenty they could cut out - but what could they without making the narrative choppy? I have the suspicion they'll probably cut out stuff that'll be important later. Judging from Sanderson's comments, there is a lot of early stuff that we don't realise quite how important it is. I really can't see this being good. Phenomenally successful? Probably. Not good though.
> 
> Hell, even if they do cut out huge amounts of the story they will still have to make at least 14 films. I would think that if you were to give it proper treatment, then some of the books have a whole film trilogy worth of material.



Agreed.  Jordan does write a lot of flowery descriptive shit in his books, so maybe the films won't have to be as long as they look and still get all the shit in, but even the first book...

Introduction of Two Rivers and all the characters
Flight from Two Rivers
Meeting Nynaeve and Min
Crossing the river
There's a battle somewhere along the way
Mat getting the dagger in the city/party splitting up
Nyaneve, Lan, and Moiraine chapters
Perrin and Egwene, tinkers, wolfbrothers, white cloads
Mat and the dagger, Rand, Thom's sacrifice, traveling
Mat and Rand in Caemlyn, seeing Logain, meeting the royal family
party meets up, Loial
The ways, the dreams
The shit in the North and Lan's past
Riding to the Blight
The Eye of the World, the Green Man, and the two Forsaken

Actually I can see this being about a three hour movie without them really having to take much out.  They might get four hours of decent filming out of it for a great extended version on DVD.


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## KidTony (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't think it works in a movie format. LOTR worked because it was a genuine love project from Jackson. The actors were all behind it and they gave up three years of their life to shoot 3 movies at once. It's nigh impossible to keep a cast for 10+ movies. Maybe a trilogy can work for the first three books, but even then my hopes are not high. I'd much rather see an HBO series like they're doing for a song of ice and fire, or animated movies.

Keeping the cast worked for Harry Potter, but WOT's cast is HUGE.


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## martryn (Sep 26, 2009)

> I don't think it works in a movie format. LOTR worked because it was a genuine love project from Jackson. The actors were all behind it and they gave up three years of their life to shoot 3 movies at once. It's nigh impossible to keep a cast for 10+ movies. Maybe a trilogy can work for the first three books, but even then my hopes are not high. I'd much rather see an HBO series like they're doing for a song of ice and fire, or animated movies.
> 
> Keeping the cast worked for Harry Potter, but WOT's cast is HUGE.



I don't think it'd work for an HBO series.  It would be over a decade long.

The friends familiar with Wheel of Time are in agreement that an anime or animated series would be the best venue for it.  It'd cost less to make, be quicker to shoot, the character's wouldn't age inappropriately, and if they changed voice actors, they could likely pass it off, whereas changing actors wouldn't work at all.  For all I know that's the course they're taking.  

If they are doing a live action Wheel of Time, anyone think it's appropriate to go into a discussion of what actors they should consider for different roles?


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## Nimander (Sep 26, 2009)

Yeah, this is definitely one of those fantasy novels that doesn't seem like it would convert well to live-action.  

LOTR was a special case, mainly because 1) it was only three books and 2) like someone above said, it was a love project.  You could see the effort put into the movie, which made it, IMO even better than the books were.  

But there's just way too much and way too many characters in WoT for the story to be properly and wholly told.


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## Tyrael (Sep 26, 2009)

Visually, Jordan's writing might suit a _LotR_ type treatment. I agree that it's really the information quantities that defeat it before it's even made.



KidTony said:


> Keeping the cast worked for Harry Potter, but WOT's cast is HUGE.



Even Harry Potter has run into problems with this though. The cast are too old and the classmates seem to change actors as of late. And if _HP_ struggles with time, then _WoT_...



martryn said:


> If they are doing a live action Wheel of Time, anyone think it's appropriate to go into a discussion of what actors they should consider for different roles?



You got some ideas about who you'd like to see?


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## Nimander (Sep 26, 2009)

Plus, a large part of the WoT's appeal deals with the character developments and the private thoughts of the characters, as well as how they see and relate to the world.  LotR was better for movie format because Tolkien wrote it more like a story being told secondhand, and the involvement in individual characters thoughts wasn't that frequent or deep.  

Stories that are largely first-person like WoT never translate too successfully to movie format in my experience.


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## martryn (Sep 26, 2009)

> You got some ideas about who you'd like to see?



Not really.  I can see someone like Patrick Stewart with a mustache as Thom, I guess.  That's about all I've got.


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## KidTony (Sep 26, 2009)

No idea who'd play rand. I'd always pictured someone like dominic monaghan playing Mat. Other than that i had Angelina joile in my head when picturing Lanfear, she gives off that lust vibe that lanfer had going on. I think of jessica laba when i think of Berlain.


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## martryn (Sep 27, 2009)

> I'd always pictured someone like dominic monaghan playing Mat.



I don't see it.  I picture someone more along the lines of Kieran Culkin.  I wish I could think of more.  Jolie would make a good Lanfear, though I picture someone more like Polly Walker as Berelain, or whoever.


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## KidTony (Sep 27, 2009)

Kieran Culkin is one ugly dude


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## Darth (Oct 2, 2009)

martryn said:


> New Spring was a pretty good read, but I read it when it came out, after reading the rest of the series.  It provides a lot of excellent background information, but I'm curious what reading it first will do if you haven't started Eye of the World.  I'm sure it's fine, I just wonder if it'll enrich your first read through of Eye of the World.



I'm planning on reading the entire series, so what should I start out with?

I'm guessing there's a reason the prequel came out after "Eye of the World". If so, would it help for me to read the prequel first or should I follow the series via publishing order?


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## Tyrael (Oct 2, 2009)

I would say go for it in publishing order - if nothing else, Jordan's stylistic growth will feel more natural.


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## martryn (Oct 2, 2009)

> I'm planning on reading the entire series, so what should I start out with?
> 
> I'm guessing there's a reason the prequel came out after "Eye of the World". If so, would it help for me to read the prequel first or should I follow the series via publishing order?



Yeah, I'd play it safe and read New Spring when it means more to you.  I'd wait until about halfway through the series to read it.  Though, if you do decide to read it immediately I don't think it'll spoil too much, or ruin the rest of the series, or anything of that sort.  

If you take Tyrael's suggestion, you'll want to read New Spring between books 10 and 11, or after _Crossroads of Twilight_ but before _Knife of Dreams._

I posted this a while back, but I want to do so again for anyone just now reading the thread.  The next book comes out within the next few months, eh, and that means many of us will be reading it and not remembering what the fuck was going on back in the day. 

Link removed

This website is awesome.  By clicking on the links to the books, you can see each chapter, and read a summary of it.  For example, clicking on _Lord of Chaos_ will have links to all 55 chapters in the book, as well as a diagram showing what characters were active in those chapters.  Clicking on Chapter 27, _Gifts,_ takes you to a several paragraph long summary of the chapter, with every mentioned character or event linking you to either the chapter they're referencing to or to the Encyclopedia's entry for that character/item/place/or concept.  

At the bottom of these chapter summaries is a section with notes.  These will explain things and make connections for you if you didn't notice them yourself.  In the above example we see that:



			
				Encyclopedia WoT said:
			
		

> Tonight is the night the Wise Ones meet with the Salidar Aes Sedai1 and Egwene plans to be with them for the next meeting in seven days.



is noted as being:



			
				Notes said:
			
		

> Making it two days since LoC,Ch25.



It also includes some theories and speculations.  

If you click on the different characters it links to the chapters that character appears as well as a complete biography of where the character has been, where he's come from, his allegiances and memberships, ranking, and physical description.  For the more important characters they include drawings (though they aren't that great).  

So, if anyone is like me and can't keep the various Aes Sedai straight, or can't remember where certain characters are, this is a great resource.  At the very least it'll tell you what chapter to go reread if you'd rather do that.  I've got it bookmarked and will personally keep it close when I read the next book.


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## Darth (Oct 2, 2009)

ok. I'll play it safe and read it by publishing order then.

Thanks Tyrael, thanks Martryn.


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## KidTony (Oct 5, 2009)

finally Finished Winter's Heart.

This book was awesome. Probably one of the best of the last four books. Much better pacing wise, and the end was fantastic. What I liked most about the book was how it focused on most major characters for large chunks of the novel at a time, giving everyone some balanced screen-time. Perrin, Mat, Elaine, and Rand all got their time to shine. I must say, with all the substandard and lackluster climaxes of the last couple of books, this time it was fantastic. While Rand and Nyaneave were trying to cleanse saidin, chaos was raging around them, and i was satisfied by the way that battle was handled. 
 Also loved every bit of the parts from Mat. He's my favorite character, so i say my favorite part of the book other than the end was Mat's screen time, and when he tried to escape with Tuon, i can't wait to see how that ends up.
  I don't have much complaints about this one. If i had to say something, it'd probably be the way romance/love is handled in this series. I'm sorry to say, but it's pretty damn juvenile. So all three girls accept that rand loves all three and support each other and encourage each other to fuck him...yeah, ok...and he's gonna get all of them pregnant? wait wut...

So yeah, really liked this one. Pacing seemed a lot better. I started with Crossroads of Twilight yesterday, I heard this book if awful tho...


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## martryn (Oct 5, 2009)

> So yeah, really liked this one. Pacing seemed a lot better. I started with Crossroads of Twilight yesterday, I heard this book if awful tho...



I didn't like a lot of the Perrin stuff in CoT, but the rest of the book is pretty solid, I think.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 5, 2009)

^ all of the Perrin stuff is annoying, starting towards the end of _The Dragon Reborn_ to present.



KidTony said:


> finally Finished Winter's Heart.
> and i was satisfied by the way that battle was handled.



I was surprised Demandred didn't just balefire everything from the beginning of the battle, especially considering the Dark One asked Demandred at the beginning of _Lord of Chaos_ to "unleash the balefire" in his name. The Aes'sedai/Ashaman would have had a tough time defending Rand if the Chosen all just balefired in his general direction.

Anything involving Mat is just awesome.


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## KidTony (Oct 5, 2009)

I like Perrin, not as much as mat but I still like him. I also don't get the Faile hate, i like her too.


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## martryn (Oct 5, 2009)

> ^ all of the Perrin stuff is annoying, starting towards the end of The Dragon Reborn to present.



I liked the bit when he was back in the Two Rivers.  And I like his character for the most part.  I just don't enjoy his chapters because he never does anything.  I fail to see why he's important.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn, Mat is an amazing general and strategist with some kick ass items and connections to the someone poised to become the most powerful woman in the world.  Perrin... has a rag tag bunch of followers who spend most of their time camped in the woods.  And he spends most of his time rescuing or hating Faile.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 5, 2009)

Perrin's return to defend the village was nice, but it was so entangled with Fail that I have mixed feelings about it. Probably the best part of that was Slayer and the introduction of the Tower of Genji, although I'm still not sure what Luc/Isam was doing in the Two Rivers. I hope to god Slayer isn't involved in any way with Perrin in the next three books, it would be a waste of a rather dynamic character.

Perrin has the wolves, which I see as the only real contribution he has. Well, that and access/knowledge of tel'aran'rhiod.


Okay so I just listened to the first two chapters of _Gathering Storm_...


*Spoiler*: __ 



 I'm glad that Cadsuane isn't going to gain more powers/mystery at the expense of Semirhage. It was painful enough having the other Supergirls learning from Moghedien  and inventing weaves out of nowhere.


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## Ishamael (Oct 13, 2009)

Just started reading The Wheel of Time this summer, absolutely love the books, probably my favorite series now. Currently on The Fires of Heaven just some quick thoughts.

- To much emphasis on Rand, yes I know he is the main character, but Jordan uses a huge cast and EVERYTHING always go's back to Rand. It seems Perrin and Mat despite being ta'veren just can't compare to Rand. Rand's The Dragon Reborn, Rand's He Who Comes With The Dawn, Rand's The Coramoor. I was pretty happy when Perrin and Mat were announced ta'verens but then Moiraine says "Rand is more strongly ta'veren"

- Perrin's a great character his love with Faile is one of the best things about the story

- Mat's a funny character, I enjoyed his visit to the aelfin and eelfin, wonder what hes gonna do with The Daughter of The Nine Moons when he realizes shes Seanchan?

- I am pretty angry about Rand's relationships I was always hoping he was going to end up with Egwene. Also does anyone find it weird how Egwene tells Rand she doesn't love him anymore after she went through the ter'angreal and her lover in it was Rand past, present, and future?

- Lanfear's obsession with Rand is pretty amusing

- Rahvin's a pimp

- Min is really annoying, the only thing she thinks about is Rand despite the fact shes only met him a handful of times.

- Finally why is Perrin not at all in TFOH? Seems stupid, one of the main characters has no lines in an entire book?


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## Nae'blis (Oct 13, 2009)

I pray to the gods of Tor that Mat/Thom/Charin go after the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn in this book. 

^ Egwene stopped liking Rand because he can channel. I fucking hated her at that point. Especially when Rand was dying on Min's lap and Egwene didn't even call for help, just stood there like a moon blinded fool. So much hate, so many times I raged. 



> Egwene: Rand al’Thor! As an honorary Aes Sedai, you must listen to me!
> 
> Rand: I thought you were an honorary Aiel.
> 
> Egwene: I’m both. It’s called "Aiel Sedai." *It’s when you’re arrogant enough for two cultures.*





Raizen Emperor said:


> - Finally why is Perrin not at all in TFOH? Seems stupid, one of the main characters has no lines in an entire book?


This happened to Mat too after the wall falls on him in Ebou Dar. And in a way also to Rand in Dragon Reborn.


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## Ishamael (Oct 14, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> ^ Egwene stopped liking Rand because he can channel. I fucking hated her at that point. Especially when Rand was dying on Min's lap and Egwene didn't even call for help, just stood there like a moon blinded fool. So much hate, so many times I raged.


 Did she really say that channeling was the reason? 





Nae'blis said:


> This happened to Mat too after the wall falls on him in Ebou Dar. And in a way also to Rand in Dragon Reborn.


 Yeah but at least we knew what Rand was doing during that time.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 14, 2009)

lol, I only just realized you said you were on Fires of Heaven, so sorry for the Mat spoilers.


Raizen Emperor said:


> Did she really say that channeling was the reason?


Not in so many words.


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## Emperor Joker (Oct 14, 2009)

Just started the series myself, I'm currently partway through The Eye of the World. I must say i'm liking Thom.


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## Ishamael (Oct 16, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> lol, I only just realized you said you were on Fires of Heaven, so sorry for the Mat spoilers.
> 
> Not in so many words.


 It's okay I don't mind. Wow I hate Egwene more and more she really thinks a lot of herself and her personality gets worse.

Just read the part where Rand and Aviendha get it on, didn't expect that for quite sometime.


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## Nimander (Oct 18, 2009)

Wheel of Time, quotes?  Oh, there are some truly epic ones out there.

One of my favorites: "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain." Mat and his awesomeness

"Duty is heavy as a mountain, death is light as a feather." I can see very easily how this can apply to a a soldier's life, which is why it's so poignant.

"Give me your trust, said the Aes Sedai
For on my shoulders, I support the sky
Trust me to know, and to do what is best,
And I will take care of the rest.

  But trust is the color of a dark seed growing,
  Trust is the color of a heart’s blood flowing,
  Trust is the color of a soul’s last breath,
  Trust is the color of death.

Give me your trust, said the queen on her throne
For I must bear the burden all alone
Trust me to know, and to judge, and to rule
And no man will think you a fool.

  But trust is the sound of a grave-dog's bark,
  Trust is the sound of betrayal in the dark,
  Trust is the sound of a soul's last breath,
  Trust is the sound of death."  It's not paranoia if someone's out to get you.

"Life is a dream from which we must wake before we can dream again." Probably my favorite quote in the entire series.  There are plenty more, I just don't want to clutter this page.


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## Ishamael (Oct 20, 2009)

This one would have to be one of my favorites, really funny.

Aviendha: “Elayne is a wetlander, your own kind. Exactly the woman for you. Is she not beautiful? Her back is straight, her limbs supple and strong, her lips like plump love apples. Her hair is spun gold, her eyes blue sapphires. Her skin is smoother than the finest silk, her bosom fine and well-rounded. Her hips are -”
Rand: “I know she is pretty. What are you doing?”
Aviendha: “I am describing her. Have you seen her in her bath? There is no need for me to describe her if you have seen -”
Rand: “I have not seen!”
Aviendha: “Her hips -”
Rand: “Stop that!”


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## Nae'blis (Oct 20, 2009)

Wheel of Time doesn't really have any seemingly epic lines in the likes of Lord of the Rings. There are a few though, like in Eye of the World: they are all in the barn when Lan takes out his sword after Thom jumps down from the hayloft. Thom eyes the sword and says "I am not a cheese for slicing." For some reason that was really funny.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 21, 2009)

I have a feeling that it will be big on Egwene, I don't like it but I feel that she has become the second leading character in the novels after Rand.

oh, lol, the Towers of Midnight is the next book? Damn it, then I probably do have to wait a few years to read about Mat and the Aelfinn/Eelfinn.

I kind of liked Moraine in sight of the other AS who have been introduced. I wish Cadsuane dies a horrible death at the hands of Semirhage so that Moraine can come back and be fantastic. Moraine was controlling, but she was nice about it. All most of the other women in the books are just bitches. With Moraine, you knew that she was fantastic because she was able to do stuff without an air of mysticism "hair covered in ter'angreal that can dissolve all weaves directed towards her or even in her general vacinity, tell when a man is channeling, make the sun rise at midnight, etc". Jordan really pulled a cheap trick with Cadsuane, especially once he said that two of her ter'angreal do not have known functions. It will be used as a (and I borrow the term here) plot-kai/plot-no-jutsu. Moraine did everything she did despite being weak in the power, of short stature, being alone in defending all of the young ones from Emonds Field, and, the most important part of it all, SHE DID IT IN FABULOUS STYLE.

I'm not sure who I hate more: Faile, Cadsuane, or Egwene.


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## Tyrael (Oct 21, 2009)

Towards the end of the series so far I actually warmed a lot to Egwene - it felt like her story was moving and picking up momentum, which I can't say for a lot of other characters. And yeah - Moraine seemed bad at first, but within the context of the Aes Sadei, it did become clear that she was probably the most likeable of the lot.

Obviously I'm in big need of a reread though, because I can't remember who Casduane is.


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## martryn (Oct 21, 2009)

Cadsuane is the "legendary" Aes Sedai that sorta went off on her own and only recently made a reappearance.  She's got a lot of other Aes Sedai lackeys following her around, and she's sticking her nose pretty heavily in Rand's business. 


*Spoiler*: _Cadsuane info_ 



    * Cadsuane is thought to have been born about 705 NE in Ghealdan. However, she was really born in Far Madding. (ACoS,Glossary, WH,Ch25)
    * Shortly after attaining the shawl, Cadsuane is taught a humbling lesson by Norla, a toothless wilder in the Black Hills. (WH,Ch34, CoT,Ch23)
    * Even though she is Green Ajah, over the years she faces more twenty men who can channel, more than any four Reds. (ACoS,Ch18, WH,Ch34)
    * Cadsuane comes out of retirement for a brief period at the beginning of the Aiel War, then disappears again. (ACoS,Ch19)
    * Cadsuane teaches Aleis Barsalla an embarrassing lesson when she visits Far Madding during the Aiel War. (WH,Ch24)
    * Cadsuane arrives at The Gates of Heaven in Canluum. She grills Moiraine, then orders Merean and Larelle to accompany her to Chachin. (NS,Ch17)
    * Larelle, Merean and Cadsuane wear their shawls in the common room of The Gates of Heaven. That night she checks on Moiraine in her room. (NS,Ch18)
    * She somehow learns of the rebirth of the Dragon and begins researching the Tower library. She discovers the problem with Callandor. (TPoD,Ch27)
    * Cadsuane leaves her home in Ghealdan to help pursue and capture Logain. She then heads north to Saldaea and helps capture Mazrim Taim. (ACoS,Ch19, KoD,Ch18)
    * Cadsuane arrives at the Sun Palace and has a brief interview with Rand. She leaves with Merana and Annoura. (ACoS,Ch18)
    * She quizzes Merana and the other Aes Sedai sworn to Rand about recent events. (ACoS,Ch19)
    * Cadsuane is in the rebel camp with Niande and Samitsu. She tells Rand he ought to leave. (ACoS,Ch35)
    * She joins Rand's group when the killer fog descends. She slaps him when he uses balefire telling him never to do that again. After he is wounded she leads the group back to Cairhien. She learns from Min what Elaida's embassy did to him. (ACoS,Ch36)
    * She is by Rand's bed when he wakes. She reluctantly leaves him to the Asha'man at his request. (ACoS,Ch41)
    * Cadsuane visits the Sun Palace with Daigian and Kumira. She quizzes Alanna about Rand but learns nothing new. She helps Sorilea with Alanna and in return Sorilea gives her advise on how to deal with Rand. Sorilea teaches her to Travel. They take a water oath to teach Rand laughter and tears, to teach him to be strong rather than hard. (TPoD,Ch12)
    * When Rand returns to the Sun Palace he sends for Cadsuane but she refuses to come. He goes to see her, tries unsuccessfully to intimidate her, then asks her to be his advisor. She sets a lot of conditions and Rand angrily starts to leave. She tells him that Callandor is flawed. (TPoD,Ch27)
    * After the explosion, Rand sees Cadsuane walking through the Sun Palace with six unfamiliar Aes Sedai. (TPoD,Ch29)
    * Cadsuane blackmails Flinn, Hopwil and Narishma for some unknown purpose. (WH,Ch13)
    * Cadsuane hears complaints from the Sea Folk, that all the prisoner Aes Sedai swore to Rand, that Damer Healed Irgain, that Caraline and Darlin are free, and that Alanna collapsed. (WH,Ch13)
    * Cadsuane leads a party of Aes Sedai as they Travel from the Sun Palace to Far Madding in pursuit of Rand. She leaves Samitsu in charge at the Sun Palace. (WH,Ch23, CoT,Prologue)
    * Cadsuane visits the Hall of the Counsels. She takes Verin, Kumira, Harine and Shalon with her to meet with the Counsels. (WH,Ch24)
    * Cadsuane calls on Rand with Alanna. She talks with Min and learns that Rand thinks he needs her. Later, she confides in Verin. (WH,Ch25)
    * Alivia, Min and Nynaeve go riding with Cadsuane. Rand sends Verin to ask Cadsuane to be his advisor. (WH,Ch32)
    * Min talks Alivia into going to Cadsuane and telling her what Rand is up to. (WH,Ch33)
    * Alivia, Min and Cadsuane drag Nynaeve from Blue Carp Street. That night, they go with the other Aes Sedai and the Asha'man to the Hall of the Counsels where Cadsuane bullies them into releasing Rand and Lan. (WH,Ch34)
    * Cadsuane accompanies Rand and the others from Far Madding to Shadar Logoth. While Rand and Nynaeve cleanse the taint, Cadsuane directs the others as they defend against the Forsaken. She uses her shrike to hold a shield and her golden swallow to detect the Forsaken channeling. (WH,Ch35)
    * Cadsuane and the other Aes Sedai and Rand go to the Pendaloan estate in eastern Tear to recuperate. (CoT,Ch23)
    * Cadsuane hears a report from Verin on the status of the Sea Folk and Tear. She talks with Rand about strategy against the Seanchan, then the Aes Sedai report that their Warders have Traveled from Cairhien. (CoT,Ch23)
    * Samitsu reports to Cadsuane about the Black Tower bonding Aes Sedai. Cadsuane is disgusted. She sends Samitsu back to Cairhien to try to keep Sashalle and Sorilea under control. (CoT,Ch24)
    * Rand eats lunch with Min, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Verin, Alivia and Loial. Cadsuane admonishes Rand to be polite. He finally asks her opinion of his plans. (KoD,Ch18)
    * After the Trollocs attack, Cadsuane browbeats Min about Rand. He warns her never to threaten Min again. (KoD,Ch19)
    * After the battle, Rand, Cadsuane, Alivia, Logain and Min survey the carnage. (KoD,Ch20)
    * At the bequest of the Dragon Reborn, Cadsuane sends Merise and Narishma to the Salidar Aes Sedai with the offer of bonding forty-seven Asha'man. (KoD,Ch23)
    * Min, Cadsuane, Alivia and Nynaeve accompany Rand on his visit to the Stone of Tear. Cadsuane continues to manage Rand's manners. (KoD,Ch21)
    * Rand Travels to Altara with a large party of Asha'man, Aes Sedai, Saldaeans and Maidens. Rand rides to the meeting with Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Logain, Jahar Narishma, Donalo Sandomere and Min. Cadsuane's ter'angreal disrupts Semirhage's disguise. (KoD,Ch27)


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## Nimander (Oct 21, 2009)

Egwene is probably my favorite female character in the story, at least after she got her development.  

Though I am still somewhat pissed that they split the final book into three  That wound will never heal in my heart.


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## martryn (Oct 21, 2009)

> Though I am still somewhat pissed that they split the final book into three



Why?  Would you rather read a tome so thick that you wouldn't be able to comfortably hold it, or would you rather the story be finished haphazardly with a shit ton of unresolved loose ends?


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## Nimander (Oct 21, 2009)

I have no problem with thick books.  They don't intimidate me

Besides, from what we were told, Jordan left enough notes of his own, along with telling his close family how he planned the story to end, that there wouldn't have been any "loose ends" left.

But I can understand why they split it into three books.  1) Brandon Sanderson, despite being honored by being selected, does need to make some cash off of the time and effort he's putting into the book.  So a trilogy would provide him with that.  2) Jordan's family, especially his wife, also needs to be provided for I would think.  Once again, a trilogy is the way to go to maximize the amount of money made. 

So, like I said earlier, I can understand why they stretched out the series to three books, and even agree with them in the rational part of my mind.  My inner fanboy still rages, though


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## martryn (Oct 21, 2009)

> Besides, from what we were told, Jordan left enough notes of his own, along with telling his close family how he planned the story to end, that there wouldn't have been any "loose ends" left.



I think the point was that this new author, in his attempt to stay true to Jordan's wishes, realized he had enough material for three books, not just one.  Just like Tolkien split his masterpiece into three books, so will Jordan's last mammoth novel be split in three. 



> But I can understand why they split it into three books.



Money might have been a factor, but I don't think it was the largest contributing one.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 21, 2009)

lol, it would take 2000 pages just to resolve the peripheral plots, never mind Tarmon Gaidon.


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## Tyrael (Oct 21, 2009)

Sanderson, in his justification of splitting the book up, repeated said that a book over 400k would be unpublishable in the fiction market is currently stands. The estimated final word count is said to be over 800k.

I remember reading _Knife of Dreams_ and seriously doubting that he could resolve it after one more book. To do so would probably be a bad end to the series, since it would do nonsensical things to the huge structure laid out in earlier novels. From the point of view of the story, another two books feels not only natural, but inevitable too. 

Whether or not it was also a way of securing some more money, I'm not in a position to speculate really.


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## Ishamael (Oct 22, 2009)

I hate Egwene with a passion, her arrogance is amazing. Finished the Fires of Heaven gonna post some thoughts.

-Who killed Asmodean? This is really bugging me the most logical thought seems to be one of the Forsaken but that seems to obvious. 

-Lanfear's death seems really sudden, took me by surprise.

-Rahvin said nothing during his fight with Rand which was pretty upsetting as I thought he was pretty cool and he got virtually no lines and then he gets balefired....

-Mat as always was pretty cool hopefully he begins to accept his fate.

-Rands personality is getting a lot darker I don't really think he needs to be so cold but it is understandable.

-The treatment Nyneave and Elayne got was amazing, "thanks for telling us about TAR and giving us these ter'angreal and defeating one of the Forsaken, but your still Accepted" That seems really stupid.

-Lews Therin's thoughts in Rand's head are pretty weird, Rand isn't LTT reborn so how can he have his thoughts in his head?


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## martryn (Oct 22, 2009)

> Who killed Asmodean? This is really bugging me the most logical thought seems to be one of the Forsaken but that seems to obvious.



That's a fishy question.  I don't think anyone really knows for sure yet, though Robert Jordan seems to think he gave us all enough clues to figure it out.  The most convincing theories I've seen have been for Sammael and Graendal.  It must have been one of the Forsaken, though.  Asmodean recognized the person, and was frightened of them.  He wouldn't have been frightened of anyone, and he wouldn't have recognized a lot of people. 



> Lews Therin's thoughts in Rand's head are pretty weird, Rand isn't LTT reborn so how can he have his thoughts in his head?



Wait.  Rand isn't Lew Therin?  I thought he was.  Now I'm confused.


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## Sanity Check (Oct 22, 2009)

WoT fun fact # 294 -- During the series enough food is vomited out by various characters under unappealing circumstances to feed a town of refugees for 3 months.


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## Ishamael (Oct 22, 2009)

ahelk said:


> Just a heads up, but if you're on the Fires of Heaven, this thread is filled with spoilers.
> 
> But to answer your questions without spoiling plots.
> 
> ...


 Sorry didn't mean reborn meant spirit as in they are different people if that makes sense?

I was pretty disappointed  with Rahvin, Rand mentions that Rahvins strength in the power is only a bit weaker then his and he just dies out of nowhere in my opinion.


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## Tyrael (Oct 22, 2009)

Balefire has always been a hell of an unbalanced power. If someone has it, then they can pretty much kill anyone.

That said, I like it because of that. It means that you don't get clear power division and since he presents clear and valid reasons why it should never be used, the characters have to learn not to use it. This makes for an interesting inversion of normal way of things; although, admittedly, there are still too many fights that just rely on it mindlessly.


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## martryn (Oct 22, 2009)

> Asmodean's killer is not revealed although many think it is Slayer.



The problem with that is his history of killing very messily.  Not to mention why he'd want to get rid of the body, why he killed Asmodean, and how he managed to do it, how he knew where to be, not to mention whether or not the two had met before and whether he was terrifying to Asmo.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't think Asmodean knew Slayer. He would have no reason to fear him.


Raizen Emperor said:


> -Rands personality is getting a lot darker I don't really think he needs to be so cold but it is understandable.


Rand is a tool. lol, when he finally resolves to be hard and cold, the first thing he does is pick on fucking Asmodean, the guy who can barely light a candle with the power. It's like kicking a small dog. And the first time Rand encounters AS after that, he acts like a pussy. Rand only acts "cold" (more like an ungrateful twat) towards his friends and otherwise defenseless/harmless people. ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Mat should have punched Rand in the face when Rand told Mat to shut up.

I lol at how Elayne/Egwene STILL haven't told Rand that he can be turned to the shadow against his will by 13 AS/Myrddraal. I don't know why they don't share that bit of information. But, characters in WoT don't really tell each other anything useful or important, plots just run on ignorance and lack of communication.



ahelk said:


> On another note, I recently reread The Eye of the World and notice a voice in all caps after Rand's confrontation with the Trolloc army and befor his encounter with Ishy. The voice tells him that he will not interfere and that only the chosen one can make a difference. Since the voice is in all caps, and so far only the Dark One has spoken in all caps, can we safely assume that the voice was the Creator's?



Moraine suggests that there is no Creator anymore. Or if the Creator is still around, s/he doesn't care at all about Randland. She says it in the same book, when they are in The Queens Blessing after just hearing about the 3 different sources of information concerning the Eye of the World.


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## martryn (Oct 23, 2009)

> We have seen slayer being commanded by the forsaken, so I assume they have all met him. As for him killing messily, he kills the Gray Man with a clean knife to the heart in TDR.



From the one point of view from Slayer, he seems to imply that he hasn't met all of the Forsaken, only some of them.  He also brags about killing two Aes Sedai, mentioning that he rarely gets to do that, yet he doesn't gloat about killing one of the Forsaken?  



> He could have been ordered to kill Asmodean by another forsaken.



Yeah, but who?  And why?  

I still stand that the best candidate for Asmodean's murderer was Graendal.  She was a known associate of Rahvin, was planning on linking with him and traveling to Illian to kill Rand, and had every reason to be in Caemlyn the day of the murder.  Asmodean would have recognized her, would have been terrified by her, she could have balefired him, and his death makes it sound like he was killed by balefire.  

I've been reading a lot of theories this week with the idea to have them fresh in my mind when the next book is released.


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## martryn (Oct 23, 2009)

> My problem with the Graendal theory is that we have geat insight into the mind of Graendal. On several instances we've read from Graendal's point of view. She never once remarks that she killed Asmodean.



She never says she doesn't, though.  She does insist that she's dead, which makes her one of the few that are convinced he is.  



> A more likely killer could be Demandred, Taim, or possible Mordin.



From Demandred's POV we know he _didn't_ kill Asmodean (Lord of Chaos prologue).  Taim doesn't make any sense, and Jordan just as much admitted that it wasn't Taim.  And there is nothing in favor of Moridin doing it.  Hell, Moridin could have still been dead at the time.   



> Taim, aside from being a dreadlord



While this is hella likely, it hasn't been proven yet.  Just conjecture. 



> hat and his strength in the Power, seem to hint at him being a Forsaken, albeit not a public one.



Taim is not a Forsaken.  There isn't any that he could be.  The only male forsaken that isn't dead or spoken for is Demandred, and Jordan has publicly declared more than once that Taim is not Demandred. 



> I believe he was in Andor at the time and could have killed Asmodean.



While he likely was in Andor (the country is big), I hardly think he was in the palace.  It was over a month between the death of Asmodean and the introduction of Taim to Rand.  So Taim just hung out in the capital for a month?  I don't think so.  

But if Taim is a new dreadlord, which I bet he is, and is taking orders from Demandred and/or Aginor, I bet Asmodean would have met him at one point and would have recognized him.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 23, 2009)

It just feels like Graendal was the one.


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## martryn (Oct 23, 2009)

> Still I think you misunderstand me about Taim; he could be a new Forsaken.



Ah.  Now that's interesting.  Like, he's not from the Age of Legends, but got in good in the current age and has been raised to a high position of power?  

Still, not likely.  He's not at any of the Forsaken meetings, and the Forsaken don't mention him, or think about him, the way they do about each other.  



> But you'd think Graendal would make some comment at least within her mind about killing Asmodean. Also from what we know of Graendal, I doubt she would be in Andor when the Dragon Reborn in a fit of rage had just killed Rhavin. She isn't one for open confrontation.



No one has made a comment about killing Asmodean, and we've seen POVs from, I think, every Forsaken.  

She would be in Andor, though, if you think about her and Rahvin teaming up to fight Rand if Rand went after Sammael like they had all originally planned.  The theory is thus:


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## martryn (Oct 23, 2009)

Well, the popular theory was that Taim was actually Demandred since we know that Demandred is closely tied to the goings on at the Black Tower and hasn't made an appearance yet as anything but a Forsaken, but Robert Jordan came out multiple times and said that Taim was not Demandred.  And there isn't any other male Forsaken unaccounted for.  Taim, therefore, is not one of the 13 Forsaken. 

With both Demandred and Aginor involved with the Black Tower, though, it's likely they've got Taim under wraps.  And it's also evidence that the two are working together.  Most of the Forsaken are now united under Moridin and likely won't try anything against each other.  And since Taim is a darkfriend, I don't think the rest of the Forsaken are that eager to off him.  He is working for them, and moving toward the same goals. 

But that's assuming Taim is a darkfriend, which is still just speculation.  I mean, it seems obvious that he is, but he hasn't overtly done anything to reveal himself yet.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 23, 2009)

Does anyone familiar with _New Spring_ remember if Elaida had already had her foretelling about the ruling house of Andor being important in the last battle? I mean, did she have that vision before or after the events in _New Spring_.


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## martryn (Oct 24, 2009)

Definitely before.  She's already in service to Andor during the events of _New Spring_, and she entered Andor's service, presumably, because of the Foretelling.  In _New Spring_ she's a full fledged Aes Sedai already as well, and she had her Foretelling as an Accepted.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 24, 2009)

Thanks. I asked because I wonder if she had her foretelling when Tigraine was still daughter-heir or only after Tigraine/Luc disappeared causing the war of succession. It would be the difference between the "royal line of Andor" applying to Mantear (sp?) or Trakand.

I know Elaida has been shown to be a massive fool in the later half of the series, but if she messed up in interpreting her foretelling, she basically has wasted 19+ years of her life in being adviser to Morgase. Also it would make me question her most recent foretelling concerning herself.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 24, 2009)

If she or any of them start making sa/'angreal, I'll be pissed. The balance of power is already screwed with none of the Chosen having so much as an angreal.


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## Nimander (Oct 25, 2009)

TBH, Egwene's story is the one I'm looking forward to the most in these final books.  As much as I love Mat as a character, I can kinda guess how the story's gonna end for him based on numerous clues and foreshadowings Jordan has dropped.  Rand is more of an unknown, so he's second on the list behind Egwene.  I never really connected with Perrin as  a character, though I don't necessarily hate him either.


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## martryn (Oct 25, 2009)

> As much as I love Mat as a character, I can kinda guess how the story's gonna end for him based on numerous clues and foreshadowings Jordan has dropped.



I'm not as convinced.  What do you foresee?


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## Nae'blis (Oct 25, 2009)

do tell           .


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## martryn (Oct 25, 2009)

From the Aelfinn:



			
				TSR? said:
			
		

> To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world!



Well, he's married the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  He died in Rhuidean, was revived by Rand, and now has memories of his past lives.  The other bit seems to be about him losing an eye, probably in some perfect sharingan scheme so that Rand can have hax jutsus.  

Then we have Min's viewings:
_A red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face. _

The red eagle is the Band of the Red Hand.  The eye is the Uchiha thing, the dagger is obvious.  The horn is the Horn of Valere, which means he'll live to blow it at the Last Battle.  The laughing face... that's confusing, but I don't think it says anything substantial.  

Egwene has dreamed about Mat a lot.  Most of it makes sense.  He speaks the Old Tongue, he was hanged in Rhuidean, and then there's the thing with the eye again.  People make reference to that and Odin all the time, but Odin gave up his eye for knowledge or something.  Egwene sees him with his eye on a balance scale, which isn't a bad thing, necessarily.  He uses it as payment for some boon that is equally as beneficial and the sacrifice.  And the eye isn't his life.  And giving up his eye still doesn't tell us anything about what will happen.  

Uhm... let's see, what else... Egwene dreams of Mat being followed by a man who isn't there.  That was the Gray Man incident with Mat.  She also dreamed of Mat racing toward something.  He totally did that to rescue her own ass in Tear.  Then there are the dreams of Mat with Aludra, which has happened or is happening.  We'll have Mat with canons soon.  Canons and an army.  Looks promising for Mat.  Not to mention the army from the Horn, if he's still linked to it (he did die).  

There was a dream where Mat was dicing with the Dark One.  He can be said to have fulfilled that when he gambled with Rahvin, and won.  

The one with Mat wrestling a Seanchan was totally about Tuon, and the leash in that dream, that was invisible, was definitely about the marriage. 

Then there was a dream about Mat dicing while bleeding in his face.  That's likely the losing the eye thing again, and seems to symbolize that Mat is taking a risk when doing it, but those always work out for Mat.  Particularly when dice are shown.  And the scales seem to show that the gamble is worth it.  In this dream he tries to hide the fact that he's lost his eye.  That's curious, to be sure.  

There is another dream about scales and Mat.  Maybe in _The Path of Daggers_?  This time it's not his eye, but Aes Sedai.  And Egwene seemed to think that the fate of the world hung on the decision Mat makes.  Perhaps this refers to the fall of the Seanchan empire as we know it due to the revelation that the chicks holding the leashes can channel.  I mean, that'd throw people in upheaval for sure.  And due to the balance scale thing again, this might have something to do with him losing his eye.  

Then again, if you're referring to the dreams of Mat being in pain and shadow as a reference to Mat dying, then that could easily refer to the fact that since the Seanchan attack and his injuries, he's been in pain.  Course, I think that dream happens before the wall falls on him, so it could also mean that Mat was about to have a fucking wall fall on him.  

There have been dreams about Mat since then, including another that seems to mean that he'll kill tens of thousands of men with the cannons he builds.  Though Egwene thinks this is only a possibility.  

Moving on to the few times Perrin has dreams of Mat, and they don't overlap directly with Egwene's own dreams (dicing with the Dark One, etc), the only one that bears mentioning involves Mat, naked and bound, snarling at someone.  However, Mat has his spear and his foxhead medallion, meaning that this could refer to him about to get hung, since he has his gifts.  This takes place in... The Shadow Rising, I think, so that's the same book as when Mat gets hung.  Since it hasn't been referenced again, I wouldn't think that it's still to come, if that's what you're thinking of. 

That's all the prophecies that mention Mat, though, so if you're hung up about the losing the eye thing, I really want to know what you think he loses it for, and what he gets out of the bargain.


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## martryn (Oct 26, 2009)

> When Egwene saw him with the eye on the balance, combined with the prophecy of him giving up half, I kinda assumed he would lose his eye(which is the instrument of seeing light) and thus give up half the light to save the rest.



That's pretty obvious, but it still doesn't explain how Mat's story is going to end.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 26, 2009)

martryn said:


> That's all the prophecies that mention Mat, though, so if you're hung up about the losing the eye thing, I really want to know what you think he loses it for, and what he gets out of the bargain.


"Bargaining" with the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn for Moiraine's return is the one of the remaining things for Mat to do. Part of Moiraine's letter to Thom and Mat possibly foreshadows Mat taking four people rather than three and as a result losing his eye or having to bargain with his eye.

Of course, Mat may just end up shooting his eye out while playing with his official Red Ryder carbine-action 200-shot range model air rifle with a compass in the stock, and this thing which tells time cannon. An eye for a working cannon is reasonable.


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## martryn (Oct 26, 2009)

> "Bargaining" with the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn for Moiraine's return is the one of the remaining things for Mat to do. Part of Moiraine's letter to Thom and Mat possibly foreshadows Mat taking four people rather than three and as a result losing his eye or bargaining his eye.



That actually seems plausible, and exactly like something those snake and fox bastards would do.  Still, he's supposed to give up his eye for Moiraine, and she's supposed to "save the world"?  What exactly is Moiraine going to do now that's so different than what she was doing before, unless, of course, she was instilled with some power by the foxes the same way Mat was.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 26, 2009)

yeah this series is pretty predictable. Like, I bet Rand wins the last battle and Egwene becomes the Amyrlin Seat... ...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Anyway, what are the general ideas about the sword Rand now carries? I don't remember many special mention of a sword aside from Hawkwing's.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 26, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Rand says Lews Therin doesn't remember seeing it or has never seen it before.




Demandred  He should reveal his whereabouts soon. For some reason I see a Mat vs. Demandred at TG. Rand vs. Moridin. Perrin vs. Faile's jealousy.


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## Ishamael (Oct 31, 2009)

Just got a random question. When the Dark One breaks free of his prison is he going to take a physical form or is he going to remain a force so to say?


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## martryn (Oct 31, 2009)

> Just got a random question. When the Dark One breaks free of his prison is he going to take a physical form or is he going to remain a force so to say?



I haven't read The Gathering Storm yet (it's sitting five feet from me and I'll likely start it on Monday), but the most popular theory I've heard of is that the Dark One will inhabit that one freakishly large Myrdraal.


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## KidTony (Oct 31, 2009)

just placed an order for TGS audio-book on amazon. Still reading (listening actually) to Crossroads of twilight. I actually like this book and the way it's from the point of view (at least so far) of people reacting to what happened at the end of book nine.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 1, 2009)

Mat was very interesting in _Crossroads of Twilight_. But a lot of people say that they didn't care to read so much of Elayne consolidating her power.


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## KidTony (Nov 2, 2009)

So far most of the book has been about Egwene. I like the book, it's some more rounded perspective on characters that needed it. I would have hated to read this book and have to wait years for the next one tho...


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## Nae'blis (Nov 4, 2009)

No one else has finished this book yet?


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## martryn (Nov 4, 2009)

I've been reading it slowly.  On chapter 4.  I read about two or three chapters a day.  Would read more, but I've rediscovered Final Fantasy Tactics for the 13th time.


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## KidTony (Nov 4, 2009)

^ I just bought FFtactics GoTR for DS and addicted to it lol. I should be getting TGS in the next few days from amazaon (audio book version)but I still have to finish CoT and then start and finish KoD, so it'll be awhile.


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## martryn (Nov 4, 2009)

> ^ I just bought FFtactics GoTR for DS and addicted to it lol.



I've only played incarnations of the original.  I'm glad that they're doing so well on the handhelds, though, as we might see another big title for it eventually.  If I had a DS, I'd be playing it as well.  

TGS is good so far.  I think Sanderson is doing a fantastic job writing.


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## Magus (Nov 5, 2009)

I finished tGS a couple of days ago.

The writing style Brandon employed was different than RJ’s, that’s for sure. I mean, the voice wasn’t terribly different, but I could tell someone else was writing the book. One of the main things I noticed is that Brandon actually had the characters talk to one another! RJ seemed to prefer the characters to remain tight lipped as much as possible, forcing everyone to figure out what was happening or going to happen by paying close attention to the actions taken and other, more subtle methods. I actually preferred the way Brandon wrote, in this regard. It felt more ‘real’. Granted, the way RJ wrote gave his books a feeling rather all their own, but I didn’t mind his grandfatherly voice being altered somewhat for this book.

As a reader of Brandon’s works, I had been wondering if he was going to write tGS with his Brandalanche at the end of the book. I think he held back a bit, but his avalanche was there at the end. That pleased me. I found myself being unable to put down the book on that last day and ended up finishing well into the wee hours of the morning. 

I loved the way Brandon handled Rand. Seeing Rand’s descent further into the blackness of his own heart was epic. His voice felt right, and his actions were oh so devilishly delightful. The Veins of Gold chapter drew me in as closely as any chapter in the entire series has. The writing was simply brilliant. I can’t wait to see how Rand leads in ToM now that he’s finally becoming the man he needed to be.

Egwene was handled well, I think. She seemed to continue on the growth pattern she had been on for the last few books. Finally she is morphing into the super robotic Aes Sedai we all new she was destined to become. Her thoughts and voice seemed to fit in well with the character I’ve imagined her to be. I am interested in discovering how she’ll force Rand to understand the wrath of the Amyrlin or whatever she’s supposed to do when the two meet again.

Mat was goofy. Too goofy. He said too many things that just didn’t seem Mat-like. Always before his humor had something to do with the situations he has found himself in (unwittingly), and how he had responded to these unexpected and undesired circumstances. In tGS it felt like his humor was being forced through the dialogue, and that’s just not how it really is with Cauthon. The jokes themselves didn’t seem like something Mat would say. Hopefully Brandon tidies up on his character for ToM since it seems like Mat is going to have a big role.

The pacing of the book seemed to fluctuate throughout the book. Some chapters were full of action, moved swiftly and just left me feeling dazed. Others seemed like they were only written so some small detail could be inserted somewhere setting up a more important revelation later on. A prime example of this was Night in Hinderstap. Now, the chapter itself was fairly enjoyable to read, even if it was far from original. It’s just that I can’t see any reason for why it’s there, other than to introduce the fact that someone’s distributing drawings of Mat for whatever reason. I can’t help but feel like whatever needed to happen to Mat could have been inserted in another fashion to keep down unneeded content. Well, that’s enough complaining about this.

Overall I was reasonable pleased. It’s been a long time since I’ve read through the series from beginning to end, so I can’t say where I’d place the book amongst the others. Top half for sure, but not sure how much higher. I thought Brandon did fairly well with this book. I think this was probably my quickest read-through of any of the WoT books so far. Assuming a C is an average grade for a typical WoT book, I’d give tGS a B. It had its share of flaws and shortcomings, but it had some of the most dramatic scenes in the whole series and advanced the plot forward. If finally feels like I can see the end of this story. 

I’m expectantly looking forward to Towers of Midnight.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 5, 2009)

Mat           ;_;

not a spoiler btw.


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## martryn (Nov 5, 2009)

Haven't gotten to a Mat chapter yet.  Guess that's my cue to keep reading.  Chapter 7, here I come!


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## Nae'blis (Nov 6, 2009)

When Moraine comes back, I wish it's like Gandalf after the fall with the Balrog and his apparent death, except she should be a thousand times more awesome.

Moraine as best/strongest aes'sedai? yes please.


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## martryn (Nov 7, 2009)

Who would read this mammoth as a PDF?  Damn!

Not making much progress.  Dragonage came out....  Guess what I spent the last two and a half days doing almost non-stop?


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## Nae'blis (Nov 8, 2009)

^ playing pokemangs? 

Michael Kramer sounds a lot different in this reading than the earlier ones. Kate Reading sounds almost the same. I can't believe they are actually married.


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## Nimander (Nov 9, 2009)

Got tired of avoiding all the spoiler tags in this thread, so I bought the book for myself on Friday for my birthday and I had it finished by Saturday night/early Sunday morning.  All I can say: fuck.

I knew 80-something pages into the book that this would be one of my faves in the series, and it did not disappoint.  Brandon Sanderson, awesome mofo that he is, did not disappoint.  I haven't fanboyed over a book like this since "Malazan Book of the Fallen", which is my favorite series.  But this book just took "Wheel of Time" and tied it with MBotF as favorite series.  Where to start with my mini-review?  Why not from the beginning?

The prologue, which I think I heard was written by RJ himself, was one of those nice touches that makes the series such a hit.  It's a given that you'll see the happenings of the world through the eyes of the major characters and supporting characters, but what really, truly brings the effect of the "End of Days" vibe that has taken over the last few books is the supernatural, freakish occurrences seen through the eyes of normal people, characters that you probably won't see again in the story yet which have their own vital part to contribute nonetheless.  

By doing this, you get the chance to almost step into someone else's shoes in this story and see what appears to be the end of the world coming straight at you like a freight train.  How would you react?  How would you feel?  What would go through your head and what decisions would you end up making?  These were thoughts that crossed my own mind while reading the prologue, which helped draw me even further into the mood of the book.

As far as the character I was looking forward to reading about the most, Egwene, BS handled her _perfectly_.  I couldn't have dreamed a better path for her storyline and character to take.  Though there were times where she seemed un-freaking-commonly wise for someone her age.  I understand that she's gone through a lot between her captivity at Falme and her experiences with the Aiel, but there were times when she said things I would've expected to come out of the mouths of 60 year-old women instead of the early 20s Egwene is.  But, it fit nonetheless.  The way she handled things when shit hit the fan at Tar Valon (without being too spoilerific, but if you've read it you know what I'm talking about) made me respect her more, and the way she handled the Black Ajah in this book...I can't even describe.  Nicely done in this area.

Mat, my second favorite character in the series, was ill used.  Like someone in an earlier post said, his humor was really, _really_ forced in this book at moments.  The reason why Mat is such an engaging character is because the shit that happens to him is never planned and always out of his control.  Yet he comes out on top anyway.  In past books, Mat was such an easy character to laugh at because it was effortless to do so.  It was almost like a running gag, yet instead of being the constant comic relief of the book Mat had a nice dose of badassery thrown into his character design as well to make him a well balanced character.  To me, he was written in an imbalanced way, which is why I didn't like him too much in this book.  But in a way, it was a transitional chapter for Mat in this book so I'm looking forward to him truly kicking ass and taking names in true Mat Cauthon fashion in the next book.

Rand.  Rand, Rand, Rand.  My favorite character in another department because of his steady descent into insanity.  And fuck me if that wasn't well written in this book.  I've never seen a puppy kicked and stomped on as badly as Rand has been throughout most of this series.  If it wasn't having such a detrimental effect to him, it would almost be funny.  He cannot catch a break.  Regardless, he did enough damage in this book that he's gonna have multiple, multiple messes to clean up when he returns in the next book.  That, I think, was the main reason behind him going even more insane in this book than before.  But seriously, he did and contemplated some atrocious shit in this book.  He literally came a hair's breadth from being worse than what it was he was fighting against.   What I'm looking forward to for him in the next book more than anything isn't so much what he's going to do, but the reactions to Rand 4.0 when he returns to his comrades.  He's changed in a pretty unexpected direction at this point in time, and it's almost going to be like reading reaction comments on Youtube.  I predict lots of jaw-dropping and lulz from me in the next book.  It's gonna be classic.


*Spoiler*: _Crack theories_ 




 Either Darlin (King of Tear) or the male ruling head of Shara is Demandred in disguise.  I believe these are the only two forces left somewhat unaccounted for by the end of TGS.  Though I'm leaning more towards Darlin as he's marching right by Rand's side, and it would be a masterstroke to strike at Rand right from his side.
 Rand is going to convert Moridin to his side before the final confrontation.  He's shown signs of not truly being a completely loyal subject of the Dark One, despite being Nae'blis.  If Rand offered him undeniable proof that he could defeat the Dark One permanently, I can see Moridin deciding to join him if for no other reason than to see if Rand is right.  I'll address how I think Rand will use Moridin in my next point.
 Callandor is going to be used to combine the three forms of magic to defeat the Dark One before the end of the series.  Rand using _saidin_, Egwene, Nynaeve, or Moiraine () using _saidar_, and Moridin using the True Power in order to finally kill the Dark One.  If you think about it, what better way to kill the Dark One than by his own power, changed and cleansed somehow so that it will be effective against him?  Though I think I do remember reading that Rand needs to link with two women in order to use Callandor, so this theory might be flawed.  The reason for this theory is the prophecy Min read about Rand "making the three as one" or something like that.  This was the first possibility that popped into my head upon reading this in the book.


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## KidTony (Nov 9, 2009)

Finally done with Crossroads of Twilight. So here are some thoughts:

As a stand-alone novel, this one sucked. As part of the series, it was actually ok. I can imagine why people would say this book was disappointing when they had to wait years after Winter's heart to read this. In truth, this one felt more like it was half a book than a full one, hardly anything happened that gave you that 'completeness' feel. 

On the other hand, i did like how the book was structured from the point of view of the supporting characters reacting to what happened in book 8, and i also enjoyed how Mat and Perrin were forced to make difficult choices. Other than that though, there' just weren't any high points in this one, besides the cliffhanger ending.

Moving on to Knife of Dreams, i also got The Gathering Storm from amazon already so i should be moving on to that after i finish KoD, and I heard Book 11 was actually pretty good.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 9, 2009)

Knife of Dreams was an improvement from the previous ~4.


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## The Bloody Nine (Nov 10, 2009)

Yeah GS was good, Very very good actually. I read that mammoth in like 12 hours, in 2 sittings to the exclusion of everything else. 

Rand was awesome. Egwene was good. Mat was....off. Gawyn was fucking awful. 

I hate what Sanderson has done with Gawyn, if he wasn't so damn good looking you can almost imagine he is Gaidal Cain reborn.


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## The Bloody Nine (Nov 10, 2009)

And once again in case you missed it the first time. This artist is fucking amazing. And Tuon is way way hotter than i ever imagined her being. Though Min is probably the hottest, or maybe Semirhage. 



edit - he also has some new stuff if you look around his site. And i've changed my mind Avindaha is the hottest. No! Egwene.


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## The Bloody Nine (Nov 10, 2009)

Also, Rand al Thor, or at least his psychosis, is based on a real person. RJ himself;



> I had two nicknames in ?Nam. First up was Ganesha, after the Hindu god called the Remover of Obstacles. He?s the one with the elephant head. That one stuck with me, but I gained another that I didn?t like so much. The Iceman. One day, we had what the Aussies called a bit of a brass-up. Just our ship alone, but we caught an NVA battalion crossing a river, and wonder of wonders, we got permission to fire before they finished. The gunner had a round explode in the chamber, jamming his 60, and the fool had left his barrel bag, with spares, back in the revetment. So while he was frantically rummaging under my seat for my barrel bag, it was over to me, young and crazy, standing on the skid, singing something by the Stones at the of my lungs with the mike keyed so the others could listen in, and Lord, Lord, I rode that 60. 3000 rounds, an empty ammo box, and a smoking barrel that I had burned out because I didn?t want to take the time to change. We got ordered out right after I went dry, so the artillery could open up, and of course, the arty took credit for every body recovered, but we could count how many bodies were floating in the river when we pulled out. The next day in the orderly room an officer with a literary bent announced my entrance with ?Behold, the Iceman cometh.? For those of you unfamiliar with Eugene O?Neil, the Iceman was Death. I hated that name, but I couldn?t shake it. And, to tell you the truth, by that time maybe it fit. I have, or used to have, a photo of a young man sitting on a log eating C-rations with a pair of chopsticks. There are three dead NVA laid out in a line just beside him. He didn?t kill them. He didn?t chose to sit there because of the bodies. It was just the most convenient place to sit. The bodies don?t bother him. He doesn?t care. They?re just part of the landscape. The young man is glancing at the camera, and you know in one look that you aren?t going to take this guy home to meet your parents. Back in the world, you wouldn?t want him in your neighborhood, because he is cold, cold, cold. I strangled that SOB, drove a stake through his heart, and buried him face down under a crossroad outside Saigon before coming home, because I knew that guy wasn?t made to survive in a civilian environment. I think he?s gone. All of him. I hope so. I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles




And also RJ apparently once shot an RPG out of the air. 



> I think I need to put a few things straight about this whole shooting down an rpg in flight thing. First off, it definitely comes under do not try this at home even if you ARE an expert. Expert is defined as anyone who has tried it once and is still breathing. You see, there aren?t many reasons to try such a thing. But when looking right shows certain death coming hotfoot, and looking left shows a crack in the wall that you couldn?t scrape though one time in a million?one in ten million?you instinctively make a dive for the crack. Now I was very lucky. Very lucky. I just happened to be laying down suppression not very far from Mr. NVA when he took his shot, so I only has a small arc to cover. Just a quick shift of the wrist. Still, a lot of luck involved. When the pilot asked what happened, I just said an rpg went off prematurely. I figured he wouldn?t believe what happened. Even some guys who saw it all from other choppers didn?t believe. I heard a lot of ?You know, it almost looked like you shot that thing out of the air? and ?You were really lucky that thing went off prematurely. I never heard of that happening before.?


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## Tyrael (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm still undecided as to whether I should wait 'till all 14 books are out, and then just go through the whole thing in one marathon, or whether I should just read each as it comes out in p'perback. Still not read my copy of _New Spring_.



The Bloody Nine said:


> And once again in case you missed it the first time. This artist is fucking amazing. And Tuon is way way hotter than i ever imagined her being. Though Min is probably the hottest, or maybe Semirhage.
> 
> 
> 
> edit - he also has some new stuff if you look around his site. And i've changed my mind Avindaha is the hottest. No! Egwene.



I remember this, was tempted to make a set around one of those pictures. Balthamel is probably my favourite of all of the pics. I'd have to be pretty predictable and go with Berelain as the hottest, though Siuan does come a close second.


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## Ishamael (Nov 10, 2009)

The Bloody Nine said:


> And once again in case you missed it the first time. This artist is fucking amazing. And Tuon is way way hotter than i ever imagined her being. Though Min is probably the hottest, or maybe Semirhage.
> 
> 
> 
> edit - he also has some new stuff if you look around his site. And i've changed my mind Avindaha is the hottest. No! Egwene.


 Saw them a while ago, really good drawings. His Rand is a bit weird but all the others seem spot on. Every time I look at his Logain I think of Hugh Jackman. In terms of females I would say Berelain takes the cake as hottest.

Also haven't gotten that far in the series (almost done with LoC) but is Tuon supposed to be brown skinned? Aren't Seanchan always mentioned as fair-skinned?


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## martryn (Nov 10, 2009)

> I hate what Sanderson has done with Gawyn, if he wasn't so damn good looking you can almost imagine he is Gaidal Cain reborn.



I've hated Gawyn since the fracturing of the tower.  It makes no sense for him to side with the White Tower and not Salidar.  I actually really liked Sanderson's first Gawyn chapter in The Gathering Storm as he addresses that.  I haven't read that far into the book yet, though, so I can't say much about how his character eventually turns out.  

Also, I knew that Jordan was in 'Nam, but I didn't know he was such a badass.  Holy fuck, I have a shit ton of respect for that guy, now.


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## Dionysus (Nov 10, 2009)

Hahaha.  I heard Sanderson is splitting the "last book" into three now.  Now, that shit is just howlarious.  Poetic.

Though, he writes fast, so whatever.


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## jkingler (Nov 10, 2009)

Ah, so the series has resumed? Maybe Martin should contract some super rare illness so his series can get back on track.


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## martryn (Nov 10, 2009)

> Hahaha. I heard Sanderson is splitting the "last book" into three now. Now, that shit is just howlarious. Poetic.
> 
> Though, he writes fast, so whatever.



That's really really old news.  



> Ah, so the series has resumed? Maybe Martin should contract some super rare illness so his series can get back on track.



Except Martin has already said that if he dies before he finishes the series, he doesn't want anyone else trying to finish it for him.


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## Dionysus (Nov 10, 2009)

Yeah, someone give Martin Super AIDS and we're back on track so long as we get a good replacement writer.

Oh, and yeah, Tuon is dark skinned.  Described as charcoal in the first description.  Though, I first thought she was white too.  'Cause everyone is, by default, white unless otherwise stated 50 times.



martryn said:


> That's really really old news.


News to me, since I gave up on this series 6 years ago or more.  I only heard it today.


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## martryn (Nov 10, 2009)

> Oh, and yeah, Tuon is dark skinned. Described as charcoal in the first description. Though, I first thought she was white too. 'Cause everyone is, by default, white unless otherwise stated 50 times.



I thought she was like a short, hot Sri Lankan chick.  That's how I imagined her. 



> News to me, since I gave up on this series 6 years ago or more. I only heard it today.



It's not that bad.  The middle books were slow and dragged on, but the first four and the last three or four have been pretty good comparatively.  

If you haven't yet, try reading The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss.  Now that's a new take on fantasy, and some fantastic writing as well.


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## Dionysus (Nov 10, 2009)

martryn said:


> I thought she was like a short, hot Sri Lankan chick.  That's how I imagined her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She might look like that.  All I really remember is her skin is supposed to be dark.

Thanks.  I'll look into it.  Is it a stand-alone or the first in a series?  Fuck, I just said I'd look into it, then I asked that question.  What a lazy ass.


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## Nimander (Nov 10, 2009)

The Bloody Nine said:


> And once again in case you missed it the first time. This artist is fucking amazing. And Tuon is way way hotter than i ever imagined her being. Though Min is probably the hottest, or maybe Semirhage.
> 
> 
> 
> edit - he also has some new stuff if you look around his site. And i've changed my mind Avindaha is the hottest. No! Egwene.



Shit.  Tuon is not bad.  Not bad at all.  I have more respect for Mat now.  

I'm gonna go jack those pics for future set usage


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## martryn (Nov 10, 2009)

> Thanks. I'll look into it. Is it a stand-alone or the first in a series? Fuck, I just said I'd look into it, then I asked that question. What a lazy ass.



It's the first in a series, but the second book hasn't been released yet.  He is said to have submitted his first draft for the sequel back in May.  

The plot of the novel follows a famous hero/villain/anti-hero who has disappeared from the world and is now telling his story to a scribe to "get the details right" over the course of three days.  The first book is called The Kingslayer something: Day 1, so I'm guessing it's a trilogy, as he tells his story from dusk to dawn in the first book.  

The book is great about mentioning all these little details in the story but not expanding on them yet, making you wonder how the fuck he went from point A to point B, to an eventual point C, D, and E, to end up at point Gamma Epsilon in the "current time".  Really drew me in and I couldn't put it down.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 10, 2009)

that artwork is pretty neat.  I would rather have those than the artwork which appears on the American covers of the books. lol, I have to wait a few years until I can get the books published by Orbit, with the wheel of time on a black background.

Gathering Storm was definitely a good read, aside from the 300 pages of padding/fluffing with meaningless descriptions and internal monologue. The common complaint was that Jordan paid too much attention to meaningless description but I never felt that in any of the other books. Yes, he paid a lot of  attention to clothing, but it was never distracting. In tGS I was frequently annoyed with the pointless descriptions and flat metaphors.

There are a lot more "holy shit!" moments in this book than in the others. Egwene basically owns the entire book with a single sentence, then it just gets better after that.


martryn said:


> I've hated Gawyn since the fracturing of the tower.  It makes no sense for him to side with the White Tower and not Salidar.  I actually really liked Sanderson's first Gawyn chapter in The Gathering Storm as he addresses that.  I haven't read that far into the book yet, though, so I can't say much about how his character eventually turns out.


Yep, ever since the break I just saw Gawyn as a twat. There isn't much about him that is likable, and I especially dislike how he just pwns warders like Kimimaro does to Naruto's kagebunshins.

I don't think about him much tbh, Galad is more interesting.


Raizen Emperor said:


> Also haven't gotten that far in the series (almost done with LoC) but is Tuon supposed to be brown skinned? Aren't Seanchan always mentioned as fair-skinned?


Tuon has a dark complexion, not as dark as Semirhage but still in that general area. I imagine that Seanchan is a lot more racially diverse than Randlanders. Rand comments at some point that the Seanchan (possibly just those he was looking at) have similar skin tones as the Atha'an Miere.



The Bloody Nine said:


> Yeah GS was good, Very very good actually. I read that mammoth in like 12 hours, in 2 sittings to the exclusion of everything else.
> 
> Rand was awesome. Egwene was good. Mat was....off. Gawyn was fucking awful.
> 
> I hate what Sanderson has done with Gawyn, if he wasn't so damn good looking you can almost imagine he is Gaidal Cain reborn.


I actually liked the events surrounding Egwene in this book, and her annoying personality/arrogance was really just confined to two scenes. Rand was a lot better, but still not Mat level. Mat was a bit of a disappointment, I'm nervous now that he will have a substantial POV in the next book and the author doesn't seem to have his character right. Tuon was fantastic, I like her even more now, and see glimpses of Mat in her personality.

Some of that Gawyn stuff was there in previous books. I just see him and Egwene as Bella/Edward, they are as shallow. Egwene always wants to mention how "beautiful and perfect" he is. The only comment she makes to his personality is how he is self-deprecating when comparing himself to Galad.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I spat in disgust when it was implied Gawyn is a better swordsman than Lan in his prime. fuck off with that. Lan should just remain there on his godly pedestal alone.


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## martryn (Nov 10, 2009)

> Yep, ever since the break I just saw Gawyn as a twat. There isn't much about him that is likable, and I especially dislike how he just pwns warders like Kimimaro does to Naruto's kagebunshins.



Yeah, that is very suspect.  I mean, it makes sense that he'd be good, seeing as how he was trained from a young age to protect Elayne, so I can see him beating his teacher after a bit of training in the tower, but the way it makes him sound he soloed the Tower's wardens.  And since he was trained since a young age to protect Elayne, why isn't he protecting Elayne?  



> I don't think about him much tbh, Galad is more interesting.



Agreed, but unless he makes an appearance soon, we've seen him only in the prologue of KoD, and before that he went six books without making an appearance.  He doesn't get enough attention.


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## Ishamael (Nov 10, 2009)

martryn said:


> It's the first in a series, but the second book hasn't been released yet.  He is said to have submitted his first draft for the sequel back in May.
> 
> The plot of the novel follows a famous hero/villain/anti-hero who has disappeared from the world and is now telling his story to a scribe to "get the details right" over the course of three days.  The first book is called The Kingslayer something: Day 1, so I'm guessing it's a trilogy, as he tells his story from dusk to dawn in the first book.
> 
> The book is great about mentioning all these little details in the story but not expanding on them yet, making you wonder how the fuck he went from point A to point B, to an eventual point C, D, and E, to end up at point Gamma Epsilon in the "current time".  Really drew me in and I couldn't put it down.


 Oh God loved the Name of the Wind, Kovthe's narrative is really something else, really enjoyed the first book. Although as you said it was broad explaining little hope the second clears up somethings.

edit- Oh yes my favorite character, Egwene gets more lines (insert sarcasm)! She is already as obnoxious as you could get, only trailing Elayne IMO, she should die with Gawyn right behind her.


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## martryn (Nov 10, 2009)

> Although as you said it was broad explaining little hope the second clears up somethings.



I hope he leaves us with more mysteries for the third book, though.  That's why television shows like Lost do so well.  People like being left in the dark and anticipating the big reveal.  I just hope he keeps it to three books.


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## Ishamael (Nov 10, 2009)

martryn said:


> I hope he leaves us with more mysteries for the third book, though.  That's why television shows like Lost do so well.  People like being left in the dark and anticipating the big reveal.  I just hope he keeps it to three books.


 Three books would be nice, but I was hoping maybe for an additional one to really flush out Kvothe's life and how he came to be in his current state. I agree that he remain on the mystery aspect but if he tries to conceal to much then maybe he won't be able to contain to three books, but I think everything should work out.


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## The Bloody Nine (Nov 11, 2009)

Well i put Berlain, Lanfear and Birgitte in the same catergory of inhumanly beautiful and i don't really consider them. Though from these drawings Egwene is also improbably beautiful.

And i have a lot more respect for Tuon now - even though she is even more of a prick than Egwene its remarkable that she has the will to say no to the pattern.

Which now that i think about it makes her even more of a Mary Stu.


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## Ishamael (Nov 12, 2009)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Well i put Berlain, Lanfear and Birgitte in the same catergory of inhumanly beautiful and i don't really consider them. Though from these drawings Egwene is also improbably beautiful.
> 
> And i have a lot more respect for Tuon now - even though she is even more of a prick than Egwene its remarkable that she has the will to say no to the pattern.
> 
> Which now that i think about it makes her even more of a Mary Stu.


 I always thought Birgitte was something along those lines, but as you said I think Egwene seems overly done.

Just finished Lord of Chaos today, not the best in the series but a really good book non the less, seemed to be slower paced then the previous ones. Thoughts on some things.

Rand- His character is one of my favorites, the descent into madness is really well written and Lews Therin is hilarious, always raving of killing everyone.

Mat- It seemed to me that throughout the whole novel despite being ta'veren he seemed to be pushed and prodded by everyone, I know he doesn't affect people as strongly as Rand or Perrin but for once could someone listen to Mat besides his soldiers? Also the whole objects can still be thrown at him is stupid, whats the point of canceling the power around him if someone could just pickup throw a boulder with the Power and kill him? Despite this he was my favorite in this novel and the best scene was when he arrived in Salidar and had that talk with Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne.

Perrin- Decent, Faile is annoying and he needs to rid himself of her and get with Berelain, little chance of that though.

Egwene- Needs to die, annoying, arrogant, and her love of Gawyn doesn't seem to go beyond looks, who also should roll over and die.

Elayne- Should die faster then Egwene. What was with the whole "Rand isn't handing me Andor, it is rightfully mine". Was _she_ about to kill Rahvin? Her arrogance surpasses Egwene's with her chin tilting and trying to take Mat's medallion not to mention her treatment of everyone in general, thinking she rules the world.

Aes Sedai- Amusing to say the least. They think the they rule the world and can tell anyone what to do, especially Rand, how does controlling him help him get ready for TG?

Finally what the hell is up with Rand and his lovers? Why does Rand need not one, not two, but three woman? What does that add to the story besides making it annoying? Also what sane woman allows the person they love to share himself with someone else? Jordan continually makes females equal to males if not superior (which I applaud him for) but then he makes them bat shit crazy for one man and throws everything out the window. Rand needs to pick Aviendha and get this shit over with, this is probably the worst part of the story.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 13, 2009)

^ I kind of see why Elayne had to reject Rand's idea of "offering her Andor," but she didn't have to be such a bitch about it. Typical aes'sedai basically. The three Powerpuff Girls just need to fall victim to some ta'veren twisting of chance and have a boulder fall on their heads.

As for Mat's ter'angreal... it gets ever worse seeing that <spoilers>an AS threw a fireball at him when they were in that zombie village and the ter'angreal didn't make the flows dissipate </spoilers>. It's inconsistent with what Rand said (although POV information/musings are ALWAYS horribly inaccurate in this series) about how Rahvin was able to kill Mat the first time. I was highly annoyed with that. Mat said he wanted to be free of AS and the One Power, yet the Finn gave him a rather faulty ter'angreal which only does half of what he asked for.

Rand needs three lovers to sate the three different persons in his head: himself, Lews Therin, and Moridin


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## Ishamael (Nov 13, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> ^ I kind of see why Elayne had to reject Rand's idea of "offering her Andor," but she didn't have to be such a bitch about it. Typical aes'sedai basically. The three Powerpuff Girls just need to fall victim to some ta'veren twisting of chance and have a boulder fall on their heads.
> 
> As for Mat's ter'angreal... it gets ever worse seeing that <spoilers>an AS threw a fireball at him when they were in that zombie village and the ter'angreal didn't make the flows dissipate </spoilers>. It's inconsistent with what Rand said (although POV information/musings are ALWAYS horribly inaccurate in this series) about how Rahvin was able to kill Mat the first time. I was highly annoyed with that. Mat said he wanted to be free of AS and the One Power, yet the Finn gave him a rather faulty ter'angreal which only does half of what he asked for.
> 
> Rand needs three lovers to sate the three different persons in his head: himself, Lews Therin, and Moridin


 The Rahvin thing was ridiculous, I still don't understand how having lightning directly thrown at you doesn't activate the medallion. Also I really don't mind Nynaeve for some reason one my favorite characters oddly enough. Going to start Crown of Swords today, what is the general opinion on it, is it good or bad?


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## martryn (Nov 13, 2009)

The books past Shadow Rising all run together for me.  I can't remember what happens in which book.  I generally consider the low part of the series events that happen between Fires of Heaven and Winter's Heart.  Going off that, I think The Crown of Swords is my least favorite in the series.


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## Ishamael (Nov 13, 2009)

martryn said:


> The books past Shadow Rising all run together for me.  I can't remember what happens in which book.  I generally consider the low part of the series events that happen between Fires of Heaven and Winter's Heart.  Going off that, I think The Crown of Swords is my least favorite in the series.


 I personally didn't think FoH and LoC where bad, slower then the first 4 but good novels regardless. But as you said they seem to mix with one another, not really seeming like individual parts of the story.


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## martryn (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm basing my judgments entirely off of how I felt while reading them.  I devoured the first four books within a matter of weeks, and then slowed to a crawl with the next four, spending months reading them.  I owned Winter's Heart for two years before touching it.  I think the problem was all the secondary characters introduced that I couldn't keep track of.  Prompted me to reread the first half of the series three or four times thinking that they would eventually make an impression on me.  Gave up on it, finally, and instead found the wiki for WoT, and now I use it reference the characters as I read.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 13, 2009)

martryn said:


> The books past Shadow Rising all run together for me.  I can't remember what happens in which book.  I generally consider the low part of the series events that happen between Fires of Heaven and Winter's Heart.  Going off that, I think The Crown of Swords is my least favorite in the series.



I started this series just before Knife of Dreams was released, so I basically just sat down and read them all in one sitting. Considering I've read the series 10+ times now in the same manner, it's hard to separate anything past _the Dragon Reborn_ (up until _Knife of Dreams_) as an individual book. I remember a vague timeline of what happens, but can't say what happens in which book. Looking at the wiki makes me think _The Path of Daggers_ was my least favorite.


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## martryn (Nov 13, 2009)

Path of Daggers had no Mat in it.

Looking closer at it, Crown of Swords isn't bad.  Lots of Mat.  I guess I was wrong. 

The first four books are really easy to differentiate for me.  Book one Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn yet.  Book two's title gives away the entire plot, which is the three guys, together still, running down the Horn of Valere.  Book three is the chase Rand to Tear book.  Book four is the awesome one that introduces the Aiel.  

After that, it's Rand doing Dragon Reborn stuff, conquering nations, and the bitch trio bitching about the other bitches.  

The Shadow Rising is my favorite book in the series, mainly because of the two trips through the doorway for Mat, and the awesome revelation of the origin of the Aiel and Tinkers.  Loved that.

EDIT:

Doing further analysis, I can tell you that Lord of Chaos sucks balls.  Way too many fucking POV's, lots of fluff chapters where nothing really happens.  Too much Aes Sedai political shit.  Bleh!

Double Edit:

Looking at some Wheel of Time stats, not counting New Spring or the newest book, I was amazed at the POVs.  Aviendha has had less time dedicated to her POV than Morgase.  

The top five POV's shouldn't be a surprise (Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Mat, and Elayne).  Nynaeve, Min, and Faile make the top 10, as does Moiraine, despite the fact that she's been "out of the picture" for half the series.  Cadsuane squeezes position number 10 off, even though she's new to the series.  

I didn't realize this until just now, but Lan hasn't had a POV since New Spring.  When you think about it, after Moiraine died, Lan has sorta become a non-entity in the novels.  Loial has only had a single POV.  Aviendha, despite being around since book 3, didn't get her first POV until book 6, and then Robert Jordan skipped her POVs for books 9, 10, and 11.  Thom has also been passed over quite often. 

Rand has been the only character with a POV in every book, though he barely squeezed into books 3 and 10.  Perrin and Egwene were only skipped one book each.  Matt missed out on three books, including the first two.  Elayne started her POVs in book 4 and hasn't missed a book yet.  

Just some interesting things I've compiled just by looking on the web.


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## KidTony (Nov 14, 2009)

Well since I'm reading the series now, what happens in all the books is still pretty fresh in my head

Imo what separates the first half of the series and the latter half is pacing. The first four books were hard paced. They were linear and action packed. The latter books kind of devolved into character musings and added a lot of POVs which meant pacing took a hard hit because everyone was in the books and you only got a little bit of what everyone was doing rather than a whole book like in the first couple of novels.

 -Crown of Swords is actually decent. The pacing sucks like every book since Shadow Rising, but there's lots and lots of mat in this one which kind of evens it out. You'll like the book if you like mat, although I though LOC was better.

-Path of Daggers is hands down the worse book in the series. Short, boring, and absolutely no mat. There's really nothing to say about this one except it sucked.

-Winter's Heart was good. Again pace is slow, but the climax is fantastic. The characters that are focused on in this one are the ones most of us care about. This one's the best since LOC.

-Crossroads of Twilight is kind of a transition book, focusing on different character's reactions to what happened at the end of book 8. The book itself is whatever if you're reading the series in one sitting, if not then you'd be pissed at how little actually happens in this one.

Currently reading knife of dreams, so far so good--much better pacing.

IMO, the books go like this, from best to last

1) Eye of The World--I don't think this one will be topped, it has everything you can ask for.

2) Great hunt-- Fantastic sequel to EOTW. The awesome climax at the end will always be one of my favorite moments in the series.

3) Shadow Rising--Introduction of the Aiel and their back-stories, the girls fighting Moghedien in tarabon as well as Perrin's cleansing of the trollocs in emond's field make this one one of my favs.

4) Dragon Reborn-- The lack of rand and weak climax hurt it, but the middle parts of the book focusing on Mat and thom and the girls hunting the black Ajah is quality stuff.

5) Lord of Chaos-- A little bit too long with too many filler chapters, but the best 'war' in the series so far (other than the end of book 2) and Rand's capture and escape make this one have a really memorable ending.

6) Winter's Heart-- Average book throughout, but fantastic climax kind of breathes new life into the series at a point where it needed it.

7) Crown of Swords--Slow in pace, but lots of mat, ok book.

8) Fire of heaven--Quality first half, but awful cliche ending. I know a lot of people won't agree, but i hated everything after Moraine died. 

9) Crossroads of Twilight-- Don't even really consider this a stand-alone book, no low points but not high points either.

10) Path of Daggers--Worse book in the series.

 Haven't read New Spring, and i have a feeling both Knife of Dreams and TGS will make the top half after i'm done with them.


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## Nimander (Nov 14, 2009)

TGS will fulfill all your fanboy fantasies.  Of that, you can be assured


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## martryn (Nov 14, 2009)

This was a bitch to work out, but I think I have the series by favorite book so far. 

1.  Shadow Rising
The Perrin chapters defending the Two Rivers were solid.  Very good material.  Rand and Mat in Rhuidean was also amazing.  Mat's trips through the doorways were two of the best chapters in the series.  Rand's visions of the formation of the Aiel was nothing short of epic.  Even Elayne wasn't that annoying in this book, and she and Nynaeve did some productive things instead of just whining and being useless.

2.  The Eye of the World
One of the most solid first books in a series, ever.  The focus was precisely where it needed to be, with very little female POVs to bore things.  The pacing was also awesome.  All the major plotlines were either revealed or hinted at.  The only improvement we could have in this book are some Mat POVs.

3.  Knife of Dreams
Despite an Elayne heavy book, the amount of Mat, and his interactions with Tuon, easily make this #3.  Rand becomes a real badass by the end of this novel, and Perrin's rescue of Faile redeems him a little bit in my eyes for sucking ass the previous two books. 

4.  Crossroads of Twilight
There is enough Mat/Tuon interaction to make this #4, despite Elayne.  Egwene is not annoying or pretentious for the first time since The Great Hunt.  Her chapters with the Rebel Aes Sedai have redeemed the Aes Sedai a little in my eyes.  Perrin is boring and frustrating in this novel.  Really, Mat and Egwene are such high points in this novel as to make the rest of the book not suck. 

5.  The Great Hunt
This is sorta slow in the middle, and suffers from too much focus on the Aes Sedai.  I can see why knowing that stuff is a great set-up for later.  Because the book is over half of Rand's POV, though, at least half of the book is solid.  The other half is meh.  

6.  The Crown of Swords
Mat heavy book, and his chapters are fucking fantastic.  It's the Perrin and Egwene chapters that makes this book suffer.  Perrin doesn't do anything despite the first six chapters being from his POV, and Egwene takes up until like chapter 12 or something, making the start of this book slow as fuck.  If you only judge the last half of the book, it's really strong. 

7.  The Fires of Heaven
The battle against the Shaido was nice.  The book was heavy on Rand and Mat, and even Egwene is ok since she's with them and not embroiled in the Aes Sedai stuff.  The other bit with Nynaeve and Elayne really forces the book to suffer.  If it could have avoided so much time with that pair....

8.  The Dragon Reborn
Way too much stuff dealing with Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve in this book.  The Perrin chapters were hit or miss.  Mat and the strong ending in Tear make up the high points in the book.  

9.  The Path of Daggers
Suffers greatly from an Elayne overdose.  There is no Mat, Egwene is doing boring stuff, and Perrin's POVs don't seem to convey anything.  Only the strong climax and Rand's battles in Illian, as well as Faile finally getting her just deserts, saves this book. 

10.  Winter's Heart
The Mat and Tuon chapters are awesome, and Rand in Far Madding is great.  The ending ranks up there with Dumai's Wells.  But Elayne is at her worst in this book, and she takes up way too much of it.  Perrin occupies the first six chapters, and he does nothing redeeming in them.  Wasted space.  The next six are even worse with Elayne.  After that the book is solid, but it ranks so low to me because it's the only book I put down after I started it.  Seriously, I quit the series after starting this book, only to return to it three years later when I wanted to read Crossroads and get caught up again. 

11.  Lord of Chaos
Honestly, the only redeeming factor of this book are the Ashaman.  And they're not around that much.  Most of the book is Mat traveling and doing nothing, Rand getting embroiled in Aes Sedai politics, and Aes Sedai politics in Salidar, which are worse than those in the Tower. 

If I had to place New Spring in the list, it would be at the bottom, right above Lord of Chaos.  An entire book about Aes Sedai politics sucks, regardless of Lan's only POV, despite the book being short. 

I'm halfway through Gathering Storm right now, but if it maintains it's current pace I'd place it between Knife and Crossroads.  I hear that it gets amazing toward the end, though, so it might top the list.  Very strong opening chapters.  Perrin is the only low point in this novel so far.


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## attackoflance (Nov 14, 2009)

Finished TGS. Really interested in seeing whats going on at the black tower. Missed Logain this book. Wanna see the rescue of Moraine and how Rand is gonna be now. I hate Gawayn but interested in his confrontation with Rand and/or seeing Morgase alive.


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## attackoflance (Nov 14, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 



And Graendal dead but still no word on Asmo's killer? psh


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## Nae'blis (Nov 14, 2009)

^ I bet we only get that in the last chapter of the last book. 

I find it odd that there aren't any darkfriends amongst the Wise Ones. When at the darkfriend social, Bors (Jaichim Carridin) didn't mention anyone who would fit the description of an Aiel. And the Wise Ones were constantly around Mat/Rand when the "kill him" order was still in effect. I wonder if being a dreamwalker prevents the secrecy required to be a darkfriend, as they can't hide their dreams from each other.


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## martryn (Nov 14, 2009)

Nae'blis, is that avatar from Let the Right One In?  Oskar, right?  Fucking fantastic movie.  

I've read a lot today, when I could.  The further I get into the book the better it gets.  I just got to _the_ part with Semirhage and read it today.  That entire chapter sent chills down my spine and made me queasy.  I honestly thought bad things were going to happen.  I can not wait until I get a chance again for a long reading session.  I think I'll finish the rest of the book in the next few days.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 14, 2009)

^ Yes, it is. I might so far as to say it is the second best film I have ever watched.

edit: I just skimmed over _Crossroads of Twilight_,  100% drivel. I guess I have to amend the opinion that _Path of Daggers_ was the weakest book.


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## Ishamael (Nov 16, 2009)

As I was reading the first chapter of A Crown of Swords the other day I was thinking about the first paragraph which mentions how the Wheel turns forever with no end. I was wondering about this in relation to the DO. His plans include escaping his prison and breaking the Wheel of Time and remaking everything to his own desire. Now if all he needs to do is succeed at this once then he wins right? But he has had an infinite number of opportunities and has failed countless times. Does anyone else think about this? Also I apologize if I make no sense, what I am trying to get at is that the DO has an infinite number of opportunities to succeed yet he never has.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 16, 2009)

Raizen Emperor said:


> As I was reading the first chapter of A Crown of Swords the other day I was thinking about the first paragraph which mentions how the Wheel turns forever with no end. I was wondering about this in relation to the DO. His plans include escaping his prison and breaking the Wheel of Time and remaking everything to his own desire. Now if all he needs to do is succeed at this once then he wins right? But he has had an infinite number of opportunities and has failed countless times. Does anyone else think about this? Also I apologize if I make no sense, what I am trying to get at is that the DO has an infinite number of opportunities to succeed yet he never has.


This is the closest he has come to succeeding, IIRC. With every turn he gets closer and/or better at it.


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## martryn (Nov 16, 2009)

> . Now if all he needs to do is succeed at this once then he wins right? But he has had an infinite number of opportunities and has failed countless times. Does anyone else think about this? Also I apologize if I make no sense, what I am trying to get at is that the DO has an infinite number of opportunities to succeed yet he never has.



That's actually mentioned on more than one occasion during the course of the novels.


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## Ishamael (Nov 16, 2009)

martryn said:


> That's actually mentioned on more than one occasion during the course of the novels.


 Ishy's conversation with LTT mentioned it, how they had fought one another countless times if I recall. I am just annoyed I guess because of him impossible this seems, an infinite number of opportunities to succeed yet failure at every turn.


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## martryn (Nov 16, 2009)

> I am just annoyed I guess because of him impossible this seems, an infinite number of opportunities to succeed yet failure at every turn.



That's the depressing bit.  If he isn't stopped permanently by Rand, then he'll just come back in 3,000 or however many years to try again.  As was mentioned, he's getting better and better at it while it looks like the allies are suffering more and more from lack of resources.  I hardly think he's had that many chances before Rand and LTT to try.  He was locked away somewhere before they tore the bore open and freed him in the Age of Legends.  I don't know much of that backstory, though.  Curious how long he was waiting behind the bore, and how many times he made an attempt to destroy the world before he ended up there. 

From the way it looks to us readers, LTT was the first person to fight the DO, and Rand is the the first Dragon Reborn, or the second LTT, despite what everyone says.  And that's the way I'm going to look at it until we hear of an earlier Dragon, someone before LTT, who fought the DO.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 16, 2009)

^ Ishamael says that their battle has lasted for infinity. Yes yes, I know we can hardly trust what he says but the whole concept of the wheel makes it seem that the seven ages are always repeated, so in the next cycle when the AOL comes again there will be another LTT (different name though) who will be dragon, and another Rand in the following age who will be the rebirth of that Dragon. At least that was the impression I got, and the one excerpt from the Cycle of the Dragon in EotW.


I keep on getting confused if he has to win in only their (read: one) reality to remake the wheel, or if he has to win in all realities to remake it. When Rand used the portal stones, Ishamael always said "I win again LT" and mentioned on other occasions that sometimes the Dragon served the Shadow.

I wonder if there is something special about this cycle that allows him to win absolutely if the Dragon serves him in that one reality.


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## martryn (Nov 16, 2009)

There have only been three ages, and many people are convinced that we currently live in the first age, far into the past of the Wheel of Time universe, which takes place on the planet earth, just in the distant future.  Regardless of whether or not that's the case (if it is the DO would have only fought humanity three times), it's still only three ages.  

I guess because it is a wheel the third age could have come and gone time and time again, which I guess makes sense, too.  But then we'd have to assume that not only has the DO failed to win decisively, but humanity has as well.  And what happens in the seventh age to totally reset the ages? 



> I keep on getting confused if he has to win in only their (read: one) reality to remake the wheel, or if he has to win in all realities to remake it. When Rand used the portal stones, Ishamael always said "I win again LT" and mentioned on other occasions that sometimes the Dragon served the Shadow.



This stuff doesn't make any sense to me.  The backstory of WoT is fucking confusing.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 16, 2009)

I guess we just have to RAFO.

How far are you btw in tGS? Which chapter.


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## martryn (Nov 16, 2009)

> How far are you btw in tGS? Which chapter.



29.  I'd be further, but it's been a busy weekend and I've been too tired to sit down and read.  Reading while tired leads to sleeping and not remembering what I've read. 

Book has been really quite good, actually.  I can see why people think Mat's personality is all fucked up, but honestly, he did just get married, and his way of life has been slowly changing these last few months, so I can see how it might be different. 

Also, anyone know the WoT timeline since the start of TEotW?  The series starts in NE 998, eh?  They make references in TGS that only months have passed since the events from book 5.  I thought it was more like a couple of years or some shit.  I'm really confused, again, about the period of time the series covers. 

TEotW NE 998
TGH starts a few weeks after that, and there is at least a four month jump during this book.  
TDR featured Perrin and Rand crossing the continent on foot.  Falme to Tear is a long fucking trip.
TSR seemed to be only a few weeks, though I can't remember how much time is said to have passed between it and TDR. 

After that, the books run together.  Perrin was in the Two Rivers for quite some time with Faile.  And then he traveled, by foot, all the way to Cairhien.  And then he turned around and traveled, by foot, all the way back to Ghealdan.  And he spent a few months looking for Faile.  And already at least a month has passed in TGS.  

I can't imagine that these Ashaman have only been learning the power for a few months, though.


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## KidTony (Nov 16, 2009)

Knife of Dreams so far has been by far the best book in the series since Shadow Rising.


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## Nimander (Nov 17, 2009)

tGS for me, just because Egwene is so fucking awesome in this book.  

Now I can't wait for the next one.

Oh, well.  I have Erikson, Butcher and Rothfuss to tide me over in the fantasy department until the next one comes out, and possibly even GRRM if he decides to be an author again.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 17, 2009)

Egwene is pretty good in tGS, but I've been wondering for a while now if she's also ta'veren. Good things just happen to fall on her lap without much effort on her part. Sure she does some things by herself, but anyone else in her situation (in the previous ~6 novels) would probably be dead by now. I've come to think of it , especially in tGS, as PIS; a lot of her enemies just carry around an idiot ball.

Favorite character from tGS has to be Rand. I hope he doesn't return to a bubbling idiot when _Towers of Midnight_ is released.




martryn said:


> 29.  I'd be further, but it's been a busy weekend and I've been too tired to sit down and read.  Reading while tired leads to sleeping and not remembering what I've read.
> 
> Book has been really quite good, actually.  I can see why people think Mat's personality is all fucked up, but honestly, he did just get married, and his way of life has been slowly changing these last few months, so I can see how it might be different.
> 
> ...


I assume you checked the wot.wikia and found it lacking? Someone seems to have gone through the trouble of doing that, I can't be sure how accurate it is. 

 so I'm reading _Fires of Heaven_ now, and when Logain/Min/Siuan/etc leave the tower, Logain wanted to call himself "Guaire." funny that he would name himself after a false Dragon, especially one who stilled/killed the AS sent to capture him.


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## Ishamael (Nov 19, 2009)

I tried to give Rand's love square a chance I really did, but I can't let it pass. It just seems so random. I still don't understand how he fell in "love" with Elayne. He saw her once and he mulled it over for a while and just suddenly thinks he loves her? And Min is hardly better, the first time he saw her, If I recall correctly, he thought she looked to much like a boy. And once again he randomly fantasizes about her and eventually concludes he is attracted to her. Aviendha is somewhat acceptable they did spend quite a bit of time with one another albeit not on the best of terms. But I still can't comprehend how one person loves three people simultaneously I know Rand is a bit off his rocker when he eventually realizes he "loves" all three but it just reminds me of some weird, badly written teen romance novel. 

/Rant

On an unrelated note aCoS isn't all that bad, the chapters with Egwene were annoying but she an is annoying person. Mat is as cool as ever but the plot seems to be unnecessarily dragged out a bit. Hopefully it finishes strong.


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## martryn (Nov 19, 2009)

That timeline posted is great, and probably accurate up to a point, but that means that Rand has got a pretty fucked up sense of time.  He repeatedly says things about Asmodean being around to teach him only a few months ago, but it's been over a year since Asmodean has disappeared.  That's what I was confused on.  I wonder if that's a fault of Sanderson, or if I'm just misinterpreting what Rand means by months.


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## KidTony (Nov 19, 2009)

Raizen Emperor said:


> I tried to give Rand's love square a chance I really did, but I can't let it pass. It just seems so random. I still don't understand how he fell in "love" with Elayne. He saw her once and he mulled it over for a while and just suddenly thinks he loves her? And Min is hardly better, the first time he saw her, If I recall correctly, he thought she looked to much like a boy. And once again he randomly fantasizes about her and eventually concludes he is attracted to her. Aviendha is somewhat acceptable they did spend quite a bit of time with one another albeit not on the best of terms. But I still can't comprehend how one person loves three people simultaneously I know Rand is a bit off his rocker when he eventually realizes he "loves" all three but it just reminds me of some weird, badly written teen romance novel.
> 
> /Rant
> 
> On an unrelated note aCoS isn't all that bad, the chapters with Egwene were annoying but she an is annoying person. Mat is as cool as ever but the plot seems to be unnecessarily dragged out a bit. Hopefully it finishes strong.



Yeah, Jordan's handling of love/romance/sex is juvenile at best.

The worst part about it is not him falling for three girls, it's actually all three of them being OK with it.


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## Tyrael (Nov 19, 2009)

Rand's Romance?



As Tony said, it's not that he fell in love with three girls. I could accept that. It's that they are somehow okay with it, especially considering the societies they come from gives women a lot of power and don't have any examples of bigamy that I can remember.


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## KidTony (Nov 19, 2009)

Aiel do practice polygamy, so i understand why Avienda accepts it, but Min and Elayne....there's no way either of them should be ok with it given the way their characters were portrayed earlier in the series.


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## martryn (Nov 20, 2009)

Just pass it all off as Rand's taveren nature.  It's done crazier things, right?


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## Nae'blis (Nov 20, 2009)

I don't necessarily mind Rand having three lovers, and to an extent I don't really mind the others accepting the situation of sharing him, I just don't think that the relationships were developed in  a way which makes sense. Especially Elayne, she thinks Rand is "cute" from one incident then suddenly she is absolutely besotted with the man? eh, love stories don't work that way. Min at least spent some time with Rand (although apparently she had already fallen hard for him) when they returned from Falme. Aviendha... well I could go on, but Mat's relationship with Tuon is a lot more convincing/understandable, and so is Perrin's with Faile.

It probably can just be tied down to Rand being ta'veren... or something else.


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## martryn (Nov 20, 2009)

Min has an excuse.  She saw him and knew that she was going to marry him, so it's understandable that she develops feelings for him.  Elayne is the one that doesn't make any sense.  I can't remember the specifics, but maybe there was a timeskip in the Stone of Tear that Jordan didn't cover where Rand and Elayne spent a lot of time together before running off their separate ways.  

If not, then it's the ta'veren thing.


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## KidTony (Nov 20, 2009)

It's still pretty much bullshit no matter how we try to excuse it.


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## Tyrael (Nov 20, 2009)

If executed well, pretty much anything can be believable. Unfortunately, this was not the case here.

Then again, personally, it entertained me greatly. And in the end that's pretty much what counts.


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## Ishamael (Nov 20, 2009)

How do you think it is eventually going finish? My friends told me Rand impregnated Elayne and that Min had a viewing of Aviendha with 4 babies. If Rand survives TG he can't continue on with 3 woman as if it is nothing out of the ordinary (wouldn't put it past Jordan to do something this crazy). And I doubt they will all be fine with sharing a husband, even Aviendha. And let's say he picks one, even if Min doesn't have his children he is still gonna leave one woman with his kids and it would be total dick move: "sorry woman Ima roll with your friend." But if Rand dies then it will all work out I guess but I want him to live.


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## martryn (Nov 20, 2009)

Why not?  The Aiel have multiple wives, Rand leads the Aiel, and one of the three women is Aiel.  Min had the viewing to start with, so she's had the most time to accept it, which she has.  Only Elayne really bothers me, since she's supposed to be Queen of Andor.  

Course, if Rand lives, I see Elayne staying in Andor, Aviendha staying in the Waste, and Min staying with Rand.  Rand would just spend his time visiting the other two.  I hardly think the four of them will live together.  And both Elayne and Aviendha can travel to Rand whenever they want to.  

I don't see why people are so caught up about this multiple wife thing.  It's not unheard of throughout our history, even in the present, and it's common enough among the Aiel in the Wheel of Time, which are Rand's people.


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## Ishamael (Nov 20, 2009)

martryn said:


> Why not?  The Aiel have multiple wives, Rand leads the Aiel, and one of the three women is Aiel.  Min had the viewing to start with, so she's had the most time to accept it, which she has.  Only Elayne really bothers me, since she's supposed to be Queen of Andor.
> 
> Course, if Rand lives, I see Elayne staying in Andor, Aviendha staying in the Waste, and Min staying with Rand.  Rand would just spend his time visiting the other two.  I hardly think the four of them will live together.  And both Elayne and Aviendha can travel to Rand whenever they want to.
> 
> I don't see why people are so caught up about this multiple wife thing.  It's not unheard of throughout our history, even in the present, and it's common enough among the Aiel in the Wheel of Time, which are Rand's people.


<Rands conversation with kids>

"Daddy you gonna be with us during Winternight? 

"Uh...no, I uh...I am visiting my other wife and kids..."

"Are you gonna come during Bel Tine at least...?"

"Uh....no......Um...sorry, I am gonna go visit Min, you know my third wife?

"Oh....ok."

This would cause emotional problems almost certainly. I can hear it now:

"Does daddy love us?"

"Yes but he has other wives and children to spend time with."

"But we are his favorite.......?"

"Yeah."

Not to mention its ridiculous, it might have been fine back in the day, but it isn't flying with me. It also makes the female characters seem weak, 3 woman depending one man, and Jordan works to hard to make his females respectable to just dump it all away for one thing.


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## Yulwei (Nov 21, 2009)

So I'm quite enjoying Steven Erikson's Malazan books and I wanted to pick up another long running fantasy series. Would I having enjoyed that enjoy Wheel of Time or should I skip it and look for something else


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## Nae'blis (Nov 21, 2009)

Considering you are asking in a _Wheel of Time_ thread, everyone will probably say "yes, this series is fantastic." _Wheel of Time_, _Malazan_, and _A Song of Ice and Fire_ are insanely popular for good reason.


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## Yulwei (Nov 21, 2009)

I'm assuming that there's somebody who's read both series and can compare them and say they're on par  or this series is superior which would make WoT worth my time reading. It's possible to read a book, enjoy it and yet consider it inferior to other books you've read or are reading if that's the case with this series in comparison to the Malazan books then I'd best save my cash and time


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## Solar Bankai (Nov 21, 2009)

Yulwei said:


> I'm assuming that there's somebody who's read both series and can compare them and say they're on par  or this series is superior which would make WoT worth my time reading. It's possible to read a book, enjoy it and yet consider it inferior to other books you've read or are reading if that's the case with this series in comparison to the Malazan books then I'd best save my cash and time



MBotF is, overall, better than The WoT.  Some of the later WoT books are full of filler and not particularly good (things start getting worse after book 4 and hit a low in book 10, but it seems to have bounced back well at book 11.  I have not yet read book 12), but I certainly enjoyed reading the WoT.


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## Yulwei (Nov 21, 2009)

I had to drag my self through Midnight Tides and Toll the Hounds if you're telling me this series has got six books are to WoT as those 2 are to MbotF then I guess I'm going to have to pass. What about this Song of Ice and Fire series?


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## martryn (Nov 21, 2009)

Song of Ice and Fire will never be finished.  Wait until Fat Ass Martin finishes the next book before committing yourself to that series, as it might just be a let down.  

I haven't read Malazan yet, but it's next on my list of fantasy series to read.  I put Wheel of Time on par with Ice and Fire, though, if for very different reasons.  And while some books tend to drag and are rather slow, the first four books have great pacing and will pull you in, making the next five or six bearable.  And even in those slow middle books, there are some fucking epic shit taking place, which makes reading through the drivel also more bearable.  

And if you're going to come into this thread asking about Wheel of Time, you should read Wheel of Time.  If you want fantasy novel recommendations, go to the Book Recommendation thread.  I posted a few days back recommending The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen R. Donaldson.  I put those novels on a higher tier than any of the other fantasy novels you've mentioned.  Higher than Tolkien.  



martryn said:


> *Book Title:-* The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
> 
> *Author's Name:-* Stephen R. Donaldson
> 
> ...





> Not to mention its ridiculous, it might have been fine back in the day, but it isn't flying with me. It also makes the female characters seem weak, 3 woman depending one man, and Jordan works to hard to make his females respectable to just dump it all away for one thing.



Are you assuming that all Aiel children have this same conversation, then?  Their father is the Dragon Reborn.  Circumstances are different.  And there have been plenty of examples of children in the Wheel of Time growing up with less than father figures walking around.  Gawyn, for example, had a fucked up relationship with his father.


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## Yulwei (Nov 21, 2009)

I drop by this section once in a blue moon and for specific threads so I wasn't aware of the book recommendation thread. I'll use it next time


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## Ishamael (Nov 22, 2009)

martryn said:


> Are you assuming that all Aiel children have this same conversation, then?  Their father is the Dragon Reborn.  Circumstances are different.  And there have been plenty of examples of children in the Wheel of Time growing up with less than father figures walking around.  Gawyn, for example, had a fucked up relationship with his father.



Well the Aiel children would probably turn out fine. But Elayne's kids? If they are anything like their mother their nose would be in the air half the time trying to fight for Rand's undivided attention. My point with this is Jordan has other far better options than to have this scenario.


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## martryn (Nov 22, 2009)

> But Elayne's kids? If they are anything like their mother their nose would be in the air half the time trying to fight for Rand's undivided attention.



But if they're anything like Elayne or Gawyn they'll be raised by nursemaids and won't even know their father from shit on a stick.  I hardly think they'll want tons of attention from a father figure who, currently, is just as likely to balefire them for disrespecting him than he is to take them out for ice cream.  Not to mention Rand is supposed to be dead after the Last Battle. 



> My point with this is Jordan has other far better options than to have this scenario.



My point is, why is this a bad option?  Sure, the Elayne and Rand relationship doesn't make sense, but it can still be explained.  They met once, and Rand's ta'veren nature could have forced Elayne to fall in love with him.  And it's easy to understand how Rand feels.  I mean, think about it.  You grew up on a farm herding sheep.  A few months later a super hot princess starts showing interest for you.  Obviously you'll think about her, and perhaps you'll even start to hope you have a real chance.  Those hopes take root in your imagination, and when things appear to be true, you go with it.  

Also, just as Rand is the Dragon Reborn, Elayne seems ideal to be Ilyena reborn, so the pattern spun them together.  I've always believed that Rand's three wives tie into three different aspects of his personality or background.  Elayne/Ilyena for the Lews Theron background, Min for the Rand al'Thor raised in the Two Rivers, and Aveindha for the Car'a'carn.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 22, 2009)

martryn said:


> I've always believed that Rand's three wives tie into three different aspects of his personality or background.  Elayne/Ilyena for the Lews Theron background, Min for the Rand al'Thor raised in the Two Rivers, and Aveindha for the Car'a'carn.


The Coramoor doesn't deserve an _Atha'an Miere_ wife?


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## martryn (Nov 22, 2009)

> The Coramoor doesn't deserve an Atha'an Miere wife?



No one cares about the Sea Folk.  No one shows them any respect.  No one fears them.  To me, the Sea Folk are a serious joke.  If not for that one chick that can channel stronger than Nyaeve, there would be little reason to mention them.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 22, 2009)

martryn said:


> If not for that one chick that can channel stronger than Nyaeve, there would be little reason to mention them.


Other than supplying competent people to wield the Bowl of the Winds.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 22, 2009)

I lol whenever I think about the Sea Folk. Probably just coincidence that they are coloured.


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## martryn (Nov 22, 2009)

> Other than supplying competent people to wield the Bowl of the Winds.



Remind me again what that accomplished, exactly?  From what I can tell, the weather is still fucked up and crops still aren't growing.  So the Sea Folk can suck it.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 22, 2009)

martryn said:


> Remind me again what that accomplished, exactly?  From what I can tell, the weather is still fucked up and crops still aren't growing.  So the Sea Folk can suck it.


Meh, it has been awhile since I read the books after that event, but I remember Nynaeve whining less about her Listening to the Wind being wrong.


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## martryn (Nov 22, 2009)

> Meh, it has been awhile since I read the books after that event, but I remember Nynaeve whining less about her Listening to the Wind being wrong.



Yeah... In Gathering Storm she's whined about it at least once.  I'll have to look at the timeline again, but it's only been a few months.  Thank goodness we found that Bowl of the Winds.  Too bad it's doing shit all right now.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 22, 2009)

A rather brilliant thought just came to me: what if Moraine somehow contrived to get her strength in the One Power changed with Lanfear's when she entered the twisted-doorway ter'angreal? There are a few things going against this thry, but it hinges on how strong Moraine was in the OP.

Does anyone remember how strong Moraine was in the One Power? I know that once the Powerpuff Girls were introduced to saidar it was said they were the strongest channelers evar, and all previous comparisons to Moraine's power were to these girls. But what were Moghedien's (might have been Greandal's) comments on how much weaker Cyndane was to Lanfear?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 23, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> A rather brilliant thought just came to me: what if Moraine somehow contrived to get her strength in the One Power changed with Lanfear's when she entered the twisted-doorway ter'angreal? There are a few things going against this thry, but it hinges on how strong Moraine was in the OP.
> 
> Does anyone remember how strong Moraine was in the One Power? I know that once the Powerpuff Girls were introduced to saidar it was said they were the strongest channelers evar, and all previous comparisons to Moraine's power were to these girls. But what were Moghedien's (might have been Greandal's) comments on how much weaker Cyndane was to Lanfear?


Well, skimming through wot.wikia.org, I found: 





			
				Moiraine said:
			
		

> Moiraine is notable as a channeler in several ways. Firstly, she is what once was considered very strong in the One Power for an Aes Sedai. Among those in the White Tower before the White Tower coup, only three other active Aes Sedai equalled her in strength. Those women were Siuan Sanche, who was Amyrlin Seat, Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan, a Sitter and future Amyrlin, and Lelaine Akashi, a prominent Sitter. Only one other in retirement, Cadsuane Melaidhrin, surpassed her on strength. Romanda Cassin, who was also retired, equalled her in strength.
> 
> Among Moiraine's known Talents are Healing and Cloud Dancing. She is strong enough to Travel, but disappeared before she could ever learn how. She also has the ability to use Balefire, apparently cobbled together from information in old books. Before coming to the White Tower, she developed a trick using the One Power to eavesdrop, something which she still uses. Her high strength also causes Verin to quote her as one of the few living women with the strength to use the Choedan Kal.





			
				Cyndane/Lanfear said:
			
		

> Cyndane is not as strong in the One Power as Lanfear was.
> 
> This lack of strength is noted by Graendal when she and Moghedien bring Moridin's summons. Aran'gar also expresses doubt as to whether she is really Lanfear during an audience in Knife of Dreams.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ishamael (Nov 23, 2009)

> Cyndane is weaker in the One Power than Lanfear was, presumably because of her capture by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. (WH, Ch. 13) However, she is by no means weak and is still stronger than Graendal. (TPoD, Ch. 12) The loss of power has could have been caused by Lanfear being stilled as she feel through the twisted doorway. (TFoH, Ch. 52)
> 
> Cyndane is unable to use the True Power; that 'privilege' is Moridin's alone. (WH, Ch. 13)
> 
> Since Cyndane has lost some of her strength in the One Power, we cannot assume that she has the same Talents that she had when she was Lanfear. (WH, Ch. 13)


From Tar Valon library

Moiraine can't have switched her strength with Lanfear's because Cyndane would be much weaker then Graendal which she is not. 

Anyways if I was reading the part where Moghedien gets mindtrapped correctly, she was raped by Shaidar Haran?


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 23, 2009)

yes, SH sexually violated her.

and lol at the only active posters on NF with names taken from the Wheel of Time are variations of Moridin.  (not counting that one smod dupe, Asmodean). Now we just need a new member to be Elan Morin Tedronai and the set will be complete.

I saw a Nyneave somewhere, but that member has like 2 posts or something.


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## Nimander (Nov 23, 2009)

I like your theory, Nae'blis.  Moiraine finding a way to switch her power with Lanfear would elevate her to gdlk tier in my book.

But I always thought Lanfear came back weaker because it's been implied/hinted at that _saidar_ was somehow on the decline or growing weaker.  Or maybe that was just me rading too much into it.

Anyway, my theories after reading tGS:


*Spoiler*: _Crack theories_ 




 Either Darlin (King of Tear) or the male ruling head of Shara is Demandred in disguise.  I believe these are the only two forces left somewhat unaccounted for by the end of TGS and Graendal specifically came to the conclusion that Demandred had an army of his own.  Though I'm leaning more towards Darlin as he's marching right by Rand's side, and it would be a masterstroke to strike at Rand right from his side.
 Rand is going to convert Moridin to his side before the final confrontation.  He's shown signs of not truly being a completely loyal subject of the Dark One, despite being Nae'blis.  If Rand offered him undeniable proof that he could defeat the Dark One permanently, I can see Moridin deciding to join him if for no other reason than to see if Rand is right.  I'll address how I think Rand will use Moridin in my next point.
 Callandor is going to be used to combine the three forms of magic to defeat the Dark One before the end of the series.  Rand using _saidin_, Egwene, Nynaeve, or Moiraine () using _saidar_, and Moridin using the True Power in order to finally kill the Dark One.  If you think about it, what better way to kill the Dark One than by his own power, changed and cleansed somehow so that it will be effective against him?  Though I think I do remember reading that Rand needs to link with two women in order to use Callandor, so this theory might be flawed.  The reason for this theory is the prophecy Min read about Rand "making the three as one" or something like that.  This was the first possibility that popped into my head upon reading this in the book.


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## Ishamael (Nov 23, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> yes, SH sexually violated her.
> 
> and lol at the only active posters on NF with names taken from the Wheel of Time are variations of Moridin.  (not counting that one smod dupe, Asmodean). Now we just need a new member to be Elan Morin Tedronai and the set will be complete.
> 
> I saw a Nyneave somewhere, but that member has like 2 posts or something.


 I wanted Ishamael when I first registered but someone had it, so I got my name changed.

Anyways the "slow Seanchan drawl" is that supposed to be a Texan accent?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 23, 2009)

Ishamael said:


> Anyways the "slow Seanchan drawl" is that supposed to be a Texan accent?


I always thought of it as more of the high society, Southern drawl, but then I've never been good at accents.


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## martryn (Nov 23, 2009)

Nimander:

*Spoiler*: _TGS_ 




Your first theory might have merit... except that Robert Jordan said in an interview that Demandred's altar ego was not yet revealed in the series.  Therefore, he's likely not Darlin.  Though I would imagine Shara would get involved in this somehow.  Can't just mention it and have NO interaction with it, especially since it's supposedly in upheaval.  And the Sharans are supposed to hate The Dragon, or something.  I can't remember very much about it.  My wager is that Demandred is in Shara.  

As far as Moridin goes, I don't think that he'll turn to the light or help overthrow the Dark One.  He doesn't want Rand to die because they're connected after their balefire weaves crossed or something.  I think Rand will realize this, and this might be part of the prophecy where Rand will have to die to kill Moridin, or something.  

Your last theory is the same one I had when I read that bit of prophesy.  However, I disagree that Moridin will be the one to channel to True Power.  I think Rand will do that, someone (or several someones, like Elayne, Egwene, and Aviendha) will channel Saidar, and Logain will channel Saidin.  Logain is supposed to be destined for some great glory, and so far we've seen none of it.


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## KidTony (Nov 24, 2009)

audio book does accents fabulously. They are expensive, but you can find most online easily. I recommend you try them out as they will bring WOT alive in a whole new way. I've only really read the first two books, every other I've listened too (i actually went back and listened to the first 2 as well) and it's fantastic. There are two narrators, a guy and a girl for different POVs and they both are super talented. Seanchen sounds like slur, slow and hard to understand. Kind of reminds me of french for some reason when listening to the accents.


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## Nimander (Nov 24, 2009)

martryn said:


> Nimander:
> 
> *Spoiler*: _TGS_
> 
> ...



Impressive

But seriously, your reasoning on the last point makes a lot of sense.  After all, there's a reason why Rand still has those wounds that won't heal.  They're meant to be his connection to the two large evils in the story, the Dark One and the evil of Shadar Logoth, and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



the wound that connects him to the DO might be the reason he's even able to use the True Power.


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## martryn (Nov 24, 2009)

I can't listen to audio books unless I'm driving.  That's the absolute only time where I can tolerate them.  I would much rather read a real, solid book than listen to one being read.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 25, 2009)

I finally got a hold of my father's copy of TGS. :WOW I'm ten chapters in so far.


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## Nimander (Nov 26, 2009)

Just like Dr. Pepper, drink in the story slow.

Doctor's orders:ho


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## martryn (Nov 26, 2009)

I read the first quarter of the book nice and slow.  Stopped two or three times a chapter to look up characters on one of the Wheel of Time Encyclopedias or Wikis so I'd remember what was going on and where everyone was.  By the time I got halfway through the novel, I was comfortable enough to read it without looking people up, for the most part.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 26, 2009)

yeah, there was like one guy who I had no idea who he was. AM just came out of nowhere.


----------



## martryn (Nov 26, 2009)

> yeah, there was like one guy who I had no idea who he was. AM just came out of nowhere.



Who?  

There's a new Asha'man that pops up in the first couple of chapters that was never mentioned before, but he's apparently been around in a nameless role for a while, seeing as how he's bonded to an Aes Sedai since I can't remember when.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 26, 2009)

Yes, it was that asha'man.

With 100+ named Aes'sedai, I've given up on learning the names of Sisters unless their names come up so often I'm forced to remember it.



> Your Ideal GF vs Bella


for a second I thought they were talking about Rand's mare :S


----------



## martryn (Nov 26, 2009)

> With 100+ named Aes'sedai, I've given up on learning the names of Sisters unless their names come up so often I'm forced to remember it.



I always look up Aes Sedai if I don't recognize them.  

I started a project about two weeks ago of trying to determine the countries for each of the Aes Sedai and see which nation contributed most to the total number of Aes Sedai.  I hadn't remembered seeing that many from Andor.  I gave up pretty quick, though.  And my initial impression is that I just don't pay attention when they happen to be from Andor.


----------



## Nimander (Nov 27, 2009)

martryn said:


> I always look up Aes Sedai if I don't recognize them.
> 
> I started a project about two weeks ago of trying to determine the countries for each of the Aes Sedai and see which nation contributed most to the total number of Aes Sedai.  I hadn't remembered seeing that many from Andor.  I gave up pretty quick, though.  And my initial impression is that I just don't pay attention when they happen to be from Andor.





I wish I had your free time, friend.  

Now I'm sad because I can't wait for the next release  Then again, the characters I was looking forward to seeing the most were covered in this book, and I'm not that interested in the ones not covered in tGS (Elayne, Perrin, Galad, Fain).  So I may be lukewarm about the next book unless Sanderson just does an awesome job of spreading out the focus of the book.


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## KidTony (Nov 27, 2009)

martryn said:


> I can't listen to audio books unless I'm driving.  That's the absolute only time where I can tolerate them.  I would much rather read a real, solid book than listen to one being read.




Completely different tastes i guess...

I MUCH rather listen to an audio book than read. Readying is taxing, and sometimes you're just not in the mood. With audio books i can sit back, and chill, even fall asleep listening to them.


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## Nimander (Nov 27, 2009)

I couldn't imagine having someone else read or tell the story to me.  It'd take half, if not all the enjoyment out of it personally.  There's something about sitting down to read, with only you and the book as the story unfolds.  Your mind is free to create it's own impressions, images and thoughts on the story, and it's as if you're undertaking the journey the author has written down yourself.  That's part of why fantasy is my favorite genre to read.  With the really good authors, it's literally a journey in every book.


----------



## martryn (Nov 27, 2009)

> I wish I had your free time, friend.



I am so fucking bored, you have no idea. 



> Then again, the characters I was looking forward to seeing the most were covered in this book, and I'm not that interested in the ones not covered in tGS (Elayne, Perrin, Galad, Fain). So I may be lukewarm about the next book unless Sanderson just does an awesome job of spreading out the focus of the book.



Rand, Egwene, and Mat were all interesting to read about.  I especially can't wait for Mat and the Tower of Ghenjei.  But I personally want to know what's going on with Galad.  He's pretty badass in my eyes.  And I'm hoping Perrin will start to do something interesting before too long. 



> I MUCH rather listen to an audio book than read. Readying is taxing, and sometimes you're just not in the mood. With audio books i can sit back, and chill, even fall asleep listening to them.



Why would you want to fall asleep while reading a book?  Seems like that runs counter to comprehension.


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## KidTony (Nov 27, 2009)

No it doesn't. I understand everything perfectly until the point i fall asleep. Hardest part is just finding where you left off the next day.


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## martryn (Nov 27, 2009)

> No it doesn't. I understand everything perfectly until the point i fall asleep. Hardest part is just finding where you left off the next day.



I find that hard to believe, being a professional sleeper, I know a few things about the clarity of the mind as you drift off to sleep.


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## KidTony (Nov 27, 2009)

Perhaps the couple of minutes before i drift into sleep I don't quite pay attention, but that's hardly a significant point in my opinion, since I can spend several hours laying in bed listening to professional narrators tell a story, rather than spending the same time straining my vision reading. 


Anyways, finished Knife of Dreams. Best book since Shadow Rising by far. Very good pacing all around, if not as good as the first couple of books, still excellent. Great action too, with satisfying climaxes for all major characters involved, Perrin, mat, rand and Elayne.

Moving on to TGS.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 27, 2009)

Sometimes when I sleep while listening to a Wheel of Time audiobook, I get dreams either about specific scenes from the story or I somehow insert myself into it. Then I wake up and pause the audiobook.

I have trouble sleeping, it takes me (on a good day) probably something just over an hour to fall asleep, sometimes it takes as much as 4 hours. I might as well listen to a good bedtime story while I wait for it.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 27, 2009)

Nimander said:


> I like your theory, Nae'blis.  Moiraine finding a way to switch her power with Lanfear would elevate her to gdlk tier in my book.
> 
> But I always thought Lanfear came back weaker because it's been implied/hinted at that _saidar_ was somehow on the decline or growing weaker.  Or maybe that was just me rading too much into it.


Wasn't the supposed "weakening/failing of saidar" only mentioned after the Cleansing of saidin? I can't be sure, but I never saw the problems with saidar as anything beyond the DO touch. Lanfear was already dead and back before that happened.

Actually, does anyone remember that one scene when Rand and his Asha'man gaurd were like Traveling (I think to Ebou Dar) and one of them mentions that Saidin is behaving oddly and not forming weaves correctly? it might have been Dashiva, but Rand just dismisses what that Ashaman said. The oddities were localized to that one location, but does anyone remember the explanation behind it?

I still want to know how Lanfear died and how Moraine was taken prisoner even though she could channel in Finnland.


> Anyway, my theories after reading tGS:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Crack theories_
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I like to think that Demandred is in Shara amassing an army of soldiers and dreadlords.

When I read that part about Moridin, I wonder why he doesn't just balefire himself. Then I remembered that even if someone is balefired they can be reborn in a later Age (even if they don't have a significant role like Ishamael). If Rand manages to win and for some reason actually kills the DO, creating a linear timeline for Randland, Elan Morin might just thank him for his final death. I haven't thought much about what a linear progression would actually mean, so I'm not sure how attached I am to that theory yet.

 Rand (channeling Saidin and the True Power) + Moraine + Aviendha in the callandor link. People who he can actually trust not the obnoxious bitches Egg/Elayne/Cads. I'll rage if the group is not made up of those three.


----------



## eliana (Nov 29, 2009)

Iii've never heard of this book before...

it sounds pretty interesting and mysterious. ^_^


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## martryn (Nov 29, 2009)

> Iii've never heard of this book before...



It's a series, not a single book.  And if you've not heard of it before, it might be better to ease yourself into fantasy literature instead of jumping into a mammoth series like The Wheel of Time.


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## Ishamael (Nov 29, 2009)

Finished aCoS, rant time.

First off the name, the crown isn't referenced at all in the entire book until the last two pages and there was almost zero mentions of the battle with Illian and Sammael. Rather unfitting something relating to the bowl would be far more appropriate as that was the primary focus from most of the characters.

Mat, as usual, was the most amazing character. And as usual his mistreated for most of the book. He cares for the safety of Nynaeve and Elayne more so than almost anything else and tries to help them as best he can and he is rewarded with name calling and being ignored. And after he saves Elayne from the gholam she decides to use him to make a deal with the Sea Folk? And Nynaeve decides he doesn't need to know what for. Not to mention Tylin continually forcing herself on him. I don't know how I'm going to go a while book with out him in PoD.

Nynaeve and Elayne by far were the two most annoying characters. Elayne's ego really needs to get a reality check and Nynaeve's attitude toward men is ridiculous, why she didn't chose Red Ajah is beyond me, apparently they can't do anything worthwhile. Also is it just me or do Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne seem like ta'veren? Being raised to Aes Sedai in less then a year, magically taking command of the Aes Sedai, finding the Bowl of the Winds and convincing the Sea Folk to help them use it, although they didn't get the best deal out of it.

Rand in this book wasn't as good as usual. He seemed as arrogant as Elayne at most points and he was whining most of the time when Min wasn't around. Which brings me to my next point. Min. Her obsession with Rand is something else, feeling she needs to by him 24/7 and calling him sheepherder. Also I didn't know sex was some one of the best ways of comforting someone after someone close to them dies.

Finally, Perrin. What the fuck does he even do anymore? Since SR he has been virtually useless. He thinks of Faile constantly and almost nothing else. I feel kinda bad for him though. Almost no one even thinks of him anymore. Rand tries to use him almost all the time and for being best friends Mat has hardly ever thought of him. And he's hardly useful, sure his ta'veren influence on people is strong but Rand's is far stronger. He's hardly a solider either since he whines about it all the time and his being a wolfbrother has hardly helped at all.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 29, 2009)

Egwene seems like the most strongly ta'veren character in the whole series. The good fortune which just happens to gracefully fall in her lap is fucking ridiculous. I still wonder why in the bloody light the Wise One Dreamwalkers decided to teach her in the first place. They don't go around adopting everyone they encounter in tel'aran'rhiod, they had no reason to care about her since she isn't Aiel. And I particularly hated how they constantly bring up how much supposed honour she has; she has no honour, no more than a Shaido dog. I complain about Egwene too much, I just try to not think too hard about her scenes as they always leave me with a sour taste in my mouth.

 I can't see how anyone can be more annoying that Egwene and Cadsuane. Elayne is haughty and just needs a few lessons in proper manners. The same with Nynaeve. I find it funny (read: I'm so pissed) that Egwene decided to be a total bitch to Nynaeve in tel'aran'rhiod for no good reason other than to stroke her already massive ego.

Perrin has been fixated on his wife for the past ~9 books or so, he doesn't even really play an important part in the main storyline until the end of _Knife of Dreams_ (and the meeting of Slayer who himself is basically just a peripheral assassin whose main role was killing Rands Aiel father in the Blight).

edit: no wait, Perrin helped Rand escape the first time, and brought back up some of the fabled fighting spirit of Manetheren. Also consolidating the wolves under his command.


----------



## KidTony (Nov 29, 2009)

TGS is preety damn good so far. I like Sanderson's writing more than Jordan, says the same thing in half the space. Kind of slow though, i thought since it was a sanderson book it would be a lot faster, maybe later on it picks up action wise.


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## martryn (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm disappointed in Perrin too.  He had such potential as a character until he got married.  He was still useful to the plot until Rand sent him to do his mission, which he's been at for like six books and


*Spoiler*: _TGS_ 



Faile forced him to fail.




Nynaeve is written a lot better under Sanderson.  Egwene as well.  

Bitching about the name of the book is sorta stupid, though.  Path of Daggers, Lord of Chaos, Crossroads of Twilight, etc have little to nothing to do with the actual plot of the books.  At least Crown of Swords focused around Rand's main storyline.


----------



## Ishamael (Nov 29, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> Egwene seems like the most strongly ta'veren character in the whole series. The good fortune which just happens to gracefully fall in her lap is fucking ridiculous. I still wonder why in the bloody light the Wise One Dreamwalkers decided to teach her in the first place. They don't go around adopting everyone they encounter in tel'aran'rhiod, they had no reason to care about her since she isn't Aiel. And I particularly hated how they constantly bring up how much supposed honour she has; she has no honour, no more than a Shaido dog. I complain about Egwene too much, I just try to not think too hard about her scenes as they always leave me with a sour taste in my mouth.
> 
> I can't see how anyone can be more annoying that Egwene and Cadsuane. Elayne is haughty and just needs a few lessons in proper manners. The same with Nynaeve. I find it funny (read: I'm so pissed) that Egwene decided to be a total bitch to Nynaeve in tel'aran'rhiod for no good reason other than to stroke her already massive ego.
> 
> ...


 That scene with Nynaeve was really something else, she thinks she is superior to everyone because she spent time with the Aiel. As you said the good things that happen to her are ridiculous. Gareth Bryne declaring his loyalty to her cause, Siuan deciding to support her for almost no reason, Theodrin and Faolain swearing fealty.

Cadsuane I've also come to hate, her age apparently grants her authority over everyone else and she seems to think she can boss Rand around like almost every other Aes Sedai but Rand just accepts her.




martryn said:


> I'm disappointed in Perrin too.  He had such potential as a character until he got married.  He was still useful to the plot until Rand sent him to do his mission, which he's been at for like six books and
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _TGS_
> ...


Yes, but Rand's story line was hardly the main focus for most of the book. But as you said it doesn't matter much.

I to had hopes for Perrin but Faile ruined them. His character in the first few books was unique. And I thought the wolfbrother thing was cool but aside from access to TAR and wolf communication it's been virtually useless. 

Hope to start PoD tomorrow but I'll probably get preoccupied with FF Tactics.


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## martryn (Nov 29, 2009)

> That scene with Nynaeve was really something else, she thinks she is superior to everyone because she spent time with the Aiel. As you said the good things that happen to her are ridiculous. Gareth Bryne declaring his loyalty to her cause, Siuan deciding to support her for almost no reason, Theodrin and Faolain swearing fealty.



You mean Egwene, of course?  Robert Jordan write the Aes Sedai inconsistent with his own world building.  They're supposed to be, from the very beginning of the series, respected enough that kings and queens bow to them or some shit, right?  And yet the minute we see the way their organization really works I can't help but draw similarities to the Catholic church or the puritans during their witch hunts and inquisitions.  

I don't mind that Egwene gets uppity with the Aes Sedai, as they need someone to get uppity with them.  It only pisses me off to see her degrade into becoming one of those self-same Aes Sedai herself.  Where does SHE get off thinking that she needs to guide Rand into the Last Battle, and that she's Rand's equal.  Was she not humbled enough in the Stone of Tear? 



> Cadsuane I've also come to hate, her age apparently grants her authority over everyone else and she seems to think she can boss Rand around like almost every other Aes Sedai but Rand just accepts her.



Cadsuane only semi-annoys me.  She's got the ability and the feats to back-up her haughtiness.  Not to mention that particular scene between her and Semirhage.  Anyone who is caught up should know what I'm referring to. 



> Hope to start PoD tomorrow but I'll probably get preoccupied with FF Tactics.



Can't blame you there.  Hopefully on the PSP as the new version of The Lion War is fucking amazing.  I need to get back into it myself.  Just started Chapter 4 in my game, and that's when all the good shit starts happening.


----------



## Ishamael (Nov 29, 2009)

> You mean Egwene, of course? Robert Jordan write the Aes Sedai inconsistent with his own world building. They're supposed to be, from the very beginning of the series, respected enough that kings and queens bow to them or some shit, right? And yet the minute we see the way their organization really works I can't help but draw similarities to the Catholic church or the puritans during their witch hunts and inquisitions.
> 
> I don't mind that Egwene gets uppity with the Aes Sedai, as they need someone to get uppity with them. It only pisses me off to see her degrade into becoming one of those self-same Aes Sedai herself. Where does SHE get off thinking that she needs to guide Rand into the Last Battle, and that she's Rand's equal. Was she not humbled enough in the Stone of Tear?


Despite Egwene wanting to change how the White Tower works she acts more and more Aes Sedai. Nynaeve and Elayne as well are Aes Sedai to the heart as Mat said, constantly keeping secrets and whose primary goals are that of the tower.  

The "guiding Rand" thing confused me to, she would get destroyed by all the Forsaken and if she thinks shes wise or something because she is Amyrlin she needs to think again. She should make her self useful and make the Aes Sedai swear fealty to Rand.



> Can't blame you there. Hopefully on the PSP as the new version of The Lion War is fucking amazing. I need to get back into it myself. Just started Chapter 4 in my game, and that's when all the good shit starts happening.


The PSP version is o.k the lag is really quite annoying but the new additions were really nice. I'm probably gonna do an all mage walk through or something along those lines, the game gets easy after you beat it 20 times.


----------



## martryn (Nov 29, 2009)

> The PSP version is o.k the lag is really quite annoying but the new additions were really nice. I'm probably gonna do an all mage walk through or something along those lines, the game gets easy after you beat it 20 times.



The game is a piece of cake to play it as is, so I always make up ways to up the difficulty.  Probably the most challenging and the most fun is the no visiting shops challenge.  You can pick up treasure chests, you can steal items, and you can purchase poached items, but you can not go to the outfitters and buy new gear for yourself.  It's really fucking tough at the end of Chapter 1, but it gets easier as the game goes on. 

My playthrough now involves randomly determining which job class to assign to all of my characters, and randomly selecting which ones will come with me in battle.  Forces you to work with what you're given to find a solution instead of being able to win a battle before you start due to min/maxing your team to hell.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 29, 2009)

What I want now is a Council of Elrond in the next book. It's high time the characters for the Light sit down and have a heart-to-heart and discuss strategy. The Forsaken/darkfriends have had so many now, including the (borrowed terms) Ansaline Garden Party and the Forsaken Coffee Hour.

Council of Elrond naturally being when everyone in _Lord of the Rings_ met in Rivendell.


KidTony said:


> TGS is preety damn good so far. I like Sanderson's writing more than Jordan, says the same thing in half the space. Kind of slow though, i thought since it was a sanderson book it would be a lot faster, maybe later on it picks up action wise.


yeah. I don't want to say that I prefer Sanderson to Jordan, since I fell in love with Robert Jordan's work and the only gripes I have are because I nitpick after having read through this series 40+ times. BUT, at this point of the series I think Sanderson  wrote a coherent novel which includes something of import happening at the end. That's not to say some of the other endings were unsatisfactory, but _Winters Heart_ was the only one with a really decent single-book ending. The other ones just seem to be transition endings. Sanderson also smoothed out some of the more annoying aspects of the series, one such is that his characters actually speak to one another now, even if just barely. Not to go into any spoilers, but Egwene even thinks that everyone, herself included, is being too secretive. This series needs a Council of Elrond. The pace is a lot faster too.



Ishamael said:


> That scene with Nynaeve was really something else, she thinks she is superior to everyone because she spent time with the Aiel. As you said the good things that happen to her are ridiculous. Gareth Bryne declaring his loyalty to her cause, Siuan deciding to support her for almost no reason, Theodrin and Faolain swearing fealty.
> 
> Cadsuane I've also come to hate, her age apparently grants her authority over everyone else and she seems to think she can boss Rand around like almost every other Aes Sedai but Rand just accepts her.


I was just rereading some of the earlier books, and Siuan has become a little confused girl compared to her former strength. Her personality completely changed after Egwene came into the Salidar camp, to the point that if she were in the Tower I would think she was Mesaana.




> Yes, but Rand's story line was hardly the main focus for most of the book. But as you said it doesn't matter much.
> 
> I to had hopes for Perrin but Faile ruined them. His character in the first few books was unique. And I thought the wolfbrother thing was cool but aside from access to TAR and wolf communication it's been virtually useless.
> 
> Hope to start PoD tomorrow but I'll probably get preoccupied with FF Tactics.


LOL I read "FF Tactics" as that book Kakashi reads and blushes over.

Anyway, I think the whole crown thing makes more sense symbolically than the actual crown. Aside from it being important to Rand (they included it in the prophecies, so it must be somewhat significant) the book also has Egwene attempting to seize control of the Salidar group and discovering how difficult it is to be a leader, etc. The namings of the books are rather vague though.



			
				martryn said:
			
		

> You mean Egwene, of course? Robert Jordan write the Aes Sedai inconsistent with his own world building. They're supposed to be, from the very beginning of the series, respected enough that kings and queens bow to them or some shit, right? And yet the minute we see the way their organization really works I can't help but draw similarities to the Catholic church or the puritans during their witch hunts and inquisitions.
> 
> I don't mind that Egwene gets uppity with the Aes Sedai, as they need someone to get uppity with them. It only pisses me off to see her degrade into becoming one of those self-same Aes Sedai herself. Where does SHE get off thinking that she needs to guide Rand into the Last Battle, and that she's Rand's equal. Was she not humbled enough in the Stone of Tear?


Indeed.

For someone who grew up with Rand, she is quick to assume the worst about him.


*Spoiler*: _tgs_ 



Rand kills a palace full of mindraped Domani; he is a monster who needs to be stopped. Egwene kills a bunch of the captive Tower aes'sedai just to settle a personal grudge against the Seanchan; she is a hero. I know she justifies it by saying "oh, the AS would be better off dead" but who the hell is she to make the decision for them? Are they no more entitled to life (since they actually have a possibility to escape) as the Domani under compulsion? The Domani weren't even people anymore, just vessels who were used a furniture. The AS who helped Egwene kill the to'raken expressly disobeyed the oath to not kill, as a lot of those to'raken were fleeing AND they had Sisters on them. Nice way to be a hypocrite. 







Ishamael said:


> Despite Egwene wanting to change how the White Tower works she acts more and more Aes Sedai. Nynaeve and Elayne as well are Aes Sedai to the heart as Mat said, constantly keeping secrets and whose primary goals are that of the tower.
> 
> The "guiding Rand" thing confused me to, she would get destroyed by all the Forsaken and if she thinks shes wise or something because she is Amyrlin she needs to think again. She should make her self useful and make the Aes Sedai swear fealty to Rand.
> 
> The PSP version is o.k the lag is really quite annoying but the new additions were really nice. I'm probably gonna do an all mage walk through or something along those lines, the game gets easy after you beat it 20 times.


All the women are AS to the core. The only decent AS I can remember now is Moraine, yes she schemes but she isn't ungrateful nor does she do stuff for the sole purpose of being obnoxious.

Moraine 



martryn said:


> it might be better to ease yourself into fantasy literature instead of jumping into a mammoth series like The Wheel of Time.



I think I started fantasy with _the Hobbit_, then moved to Raymond Feist's _Riftwar Cycle_. I still consider _the Magician_ to be the book that basically made me certain Fantasy was my genre of choice.


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## KidTony (Nov 30, 2009)

I got to the Semirage/Cadsuane scene, some chuckles out of that one. Though I have to say the scene that has impressed me the most so far is Egwene's particular one with Elaida ( right before the Cadsuane/Semirage part), probably one of Egwane's best scenes. I always hated Egwene's development chapters, but I must say TGS has really made me a fan of her character. I'm beginning to look forward to Egwane's white tower chapters the most out of any POV so far in this book, though I also really like the stuff on Rand so far (particular dream of his specifically)



> I think I started fantasy with the Hobbit, then moved to *Raymond Feist's Riftwar Cycle.* I still consider the Magician to be the book that basically made me certain Fantasy was my genre of choice.
> __________________



Met too! Though I've never read LOTR or the Hobbit, though i do own the movies. I'm actually considering reading (i got my hands on the audio books) LOTR and the hobbit before moving to ASoIF after I'm done with TGS.  Not really sure I'll read the Hobbit, but most likely will do so LOTR. Is the Hobbit a must read? Should i read it before LOTR?

I read most of Feist earlier stuff. Magician I and II were awesome IMO. Silverthorn was OK, and I loved the last book, darkness in sethanon--Feist can do military stuff pretty good when he tries. Although my favorite of his series is his empire trilogy which he co-wrote with Jaimie Wurts. I thought the books were amazing, not quite epic fantasy, but a damn good story. I also read his serpent war saga, but that one sucked. I dropped it halfway through the 4th book,


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## The Space Cowboy (Nov 30, 2009)

Speaking of WoT, the women are like that because his universe offers a twist on gender relations.  Since men are remembered as being the ones who broke the world, it's understandable that Randlandian society has a matriarchal bent.


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## Ishamael (Nov 30, 2009)

> I was just rereading some of the earlier books, and Siuan has become a little confused girl compared to her former strength. Her personality completely changed after Egwene came into the Salidar camp, to the point that if she were in the Tower I would think she was Mesaana.


Well I can't blame her in a way, she is almost the weakest Aes Sedai and many blame her for their predicament, she holds little sway by herself and has to rely on Leane to get her message across. It's natural I guess that she should feel that Egwene is her last hope really. That being said I wish she was far tougher with Egwene.



> All the women are AS to the core. The only decent AS I can remember now is Moraine, yes she schemes but she isn't ungrateful nor does she do stuff for the sole purpose of being obnoxious.
> 
> Moraine


Yeah compared to all Aes Sedai she was amazing. Looking back I never really appreciated Moiraine. Hope she returns from the Tower of Ghenjei with some strong plot relevance.



> Speaking of WoT, the women are like that because his universe offers a twist on gender relations. Since men are remembered as being the ones who broke the world, it's understandable that Randlandian society has a matriarchal bent.


I applaud Jordan for the female treatment, few authors make an attempt at gender equality, but I wish that that females wouldn't be so condescending and arrogant as most are.



> The game is a piece of cake to play it as is, so I always make up ways to up the difficulty. Probably the most challenging and the most fun is the no visiting shops challenge. You can pick up treasure chests, you can steal items, and you can purchase poached items, but you can not go to the outfitters and buy new gear for yourself. It's really fucking tough at the end of Chapter 1, but it gets easier as the game goes on.
> 
> My playthrough now involves randomly determining which job class to assign to all of my characters, and randomly selecting which ones will come with me in battle. Forces you to work with what you're given to find a solution instead of being able to win a battle before you start due to min/maxing your team to hell.


Random jobs are fun, I once got a party of a bard, white mage, geomancer, samurai and thief which for some odd reason was so fun. Ramza being the samurai. Most challenges get very easy after chapter 1, thats why I try and put a level cap for most of the game. I'm currently trying a full on magic approach. Black mage, summoner, time mage, oracle and a samurai (considered white mage but the job is obseleted by summoner).


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## martryn (Nov 30, 2009)

> I was just rereading some of the earlier books, and Siuan has become a little confused girl compared to her former strength. Her personality completely changed after Egwene came into the Salidar camp, to the point that if she were in the Tower I would think she was Mesaana.



A lot of a person's strength comes from their authority, though.  This is evident if you take a strong leader and then put him in a group where he doesn't have authority.  Sanderson mentioned several times how people take her for granted because she's weak in the power while mentioning also her shrewd mind.  



> I applaud Jordan for the female treatment, few authors make an attempt at gender equality, but I wish that that females wouldn't be so condescending and arrogant as most are.



I didn't like the way he handled it.  You can write strong women without making them all bitches.  


*Spoiler*: _Tactics talk_ 




I've just started Chapter 4 and Ramza has spent most of the game as either a Squire, Thief, or Samurai.  I'm mastered the Chemist, Knight, and Archer classes with some of my other characters.  I try to use all my party members, so I've got five random members, Ladd, Alicia, and Lavian, and all the named characters you get up to chapter 4.  I've randomly assigned Agrias as a Mystic, which has been interesting.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 30, 2009)

Siuan was strong willed when she arrived in the Tower as a fisherman's daughter. I kind of see now how she might have changed, as a product of the White Tower nonsense on how weakness in the Power requires deference and willing subservience. I just can't believe she changed so much because of it, even her thoughts lack the characteristics from _New Spring_ and the beginning of this series.


Robert Jordan said the AS are basically interpretations of his wife.  I wonder if he thought that was a compliment or something.


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## KidTony (Nov 30, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _tgs_ 



 I just got to the scene where Rand killed Semirage....OMG that was fucking awesome. There's hardly any doubt in my mind now. While i have great respect for Jordan as a world builder, Sanderson is just straight up better writer. He's better at characterization, at pacing, and about all the little things that make a book enjoyable. I really have not enjoyed a wheel of time book this much since Shadow Rising.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 1, 2009)

I had to read that part 5 times before moving on, then realizing it just gets better in the next chapter.

edit: wow, the hardcover selling for just under $12?


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## Nimander (Dec 1, 2009)

Lies!  I bought it for $20-something for my birthday!


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## martryn (Dec 1, 2009)

I bought it for 16 pounds in Southampton the week of it's release, and then turn around and the very next week it's selling for 8 pounds now.


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## Fran (Dec 1, 2009)

I just picked up the first book in the series today for a bargain.
I'll update with a review once I'm done with it. Probably tomorrow evening.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 1, 2009)

KidTony said:


> I got to the Semirage/Cadsuane scene, some chuckles out of that one. Though I have to say the scene that has impressed me the most so far is Egwene's particular one with Elaida ( right before the Cadsuane/Semirage part), probably one of Egwane's best scenes. I always hated Egwene's development chapters, but I must say TGS has really made me a fan of her character. I'm beginning to look forward to Egwane's white tower chapters the most out of any POV so far in this book, though I also really like the stuff on Rand so far (particular dream of his specifically)


Egwene is somewhat better in TGS, and I no longer hate reading chapters from Rand's POV. Both of them were more enjoyable in this book.




> Met too! Though I've never read LOTR or the Hobbit, though i do own the movies. I'm actually considering reading (i got my hands on the audio books) LOTR and the hobbit before moving to ASoIF after I'm done with TGS.  Not really sure I'll read the Hobbit, but most likely will do so LOTR. Is the Hobbit a must read? Should i read it before LOTR?
> 
> I read most of Feist earlier stuff. Magician I and II were awesome IMO. Silverthorn was OK, and I loved the last book, darkness in sethanon--Feist can do military stuff pretty good when he tries. Although my favorite of his series is his empire trilogy which he co-wrote with Jaimie Wurts. I thought the books were amazing, not quite epic fantasy, but a damn good story. I also read his serpent war saga, but that one sucked. I dropped it halfway through the 4th book,



I've read all of Feist's books, up until the book he released in 2005 (the first book of the _Darkwar Saga_). The only reason I stopped was because I couldn't afford to buy the newer ones, and I had just discovered Robert Jordan. _Magician_ definitely is a great book, Milamber is one of my favorite characters in fantasy even though his personality isn't as developed as I would like. One of the interesting things about Feist is that he doesn't write from the same characters perspective for more than a single book. Pug/Tomas were the main characters in Magician, but I don't think they were ever the dominant POV in any of the other ~23 books. Feist gives everyone in his universe a chance to advance the general overall plot of Midkemia/Kelewan. I like his approach though, it suits this series very well. If all of the 18 books (not counting the 3 books set in Tsuranuanni) were from Pug's and Tomas' POV, it would have gotten very tiring very quickly. And all of the books in the _Riftwar Cycle_ can count as stand alone novels, even within their respective saga's.

_The Empire Trilogy_ with Wurts reminded me a lot of GRRM _A Song of Ice and Fire_, but lacking a lot of the subtly/dynamics of ASOIAF. _The Empire Trilogy_ was great though, it was interesting to get a detailed look into the inner workings of the political houses of Kelewan. And, for a wonder, the female protagonist is fantastic, not the horrid caricatures Robert Jordan molds his females after.

I can't finish a book once I've gotten more than 2 books in. I stop seeing the books as individual works but just see it as developing a world I've come to enjoy. That's probably why books ~6-11 of _Wheel of Time_ didn't seem particularly annoying to me, since I read them all back-to-back in the space of a month and I don't see them as individual books. Just to give you an idea of how reluctant I am to drop an author in the middle of a series, I read ALL of Terry Goodkind's _Sword of Truth_ even though I was gritting my teeth while reading _Pillars of Creation_ .

As with the _Wheel of Time_ audiobook, the _Lord of the Rings_ one is good. Lord of the Rings has a lot of poetry and songs in it, and I know that a lot of the poetry/song is written with a specific melody in mind (my single-volume version of the book IIRC has sheet music at the back of it). I haven't bothered learning the music to compare it to the tune the narrator uses, but he does an admirable job with it. It's not grating and somewhat pleasing/appropriate. His intonations also seem appropriate for the characters, although Legolas doesn't match what I expected from the book.

And for reading _the Hobbit_... well, it's not that long. It's interesting backstory to the events of _Lord of the Rings_, Tolkien sometimes references back to events/characters in _the Hobbit_ so not reading it will take away from the experience. Not by a lot, since LOTR is beautifully written. I would say just read it, depending on how much time you have it won't take longer than an afternoon or a weekend.

edit: eh, I didn't like it when _the Magician_ was split into two books. I like holding a 700+ page book in my hand. Anything shorter just doesn't feel right.


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## KidTony (Dec 1, 2009)

I don't know how you stomached the Serpentwar Saga. That was just nigh unreadable. I don't know how the hell i got through the first three books, but then again you read the sword of truth series, and i wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. 

Magician was awesome, to date one of my favorite fantasy books. At first it felt like a rehash of LOTR (haven't read the books, but seen the movies like 30 times each) with the elves and dwarfs and underground mines, but Feist was able to give it a twist with the whole Kelwan invasion, and Magician 2 was a book on its own, very awesome. Oh, and prince Arutha is fucking awesome.

Silverthorn was OK, probably the worst of the four Riftwar books, although still enjoyable, mostly because of Jimmy. The last book IMO was my fav. I loved the war in Armengar and i love how this guy the Duke of of whatever came back in the story, everything tied in pretty nicely. 

Like i said, Empire trilogy was my fav. Probably one of the best series i've ever read. Great characterization and great protagonist...and the frigging politics of kelewan are enough to drive anyone crazy. But after that....anything else by by Fiest just didn't go down...I read Prince of the Blood, god awful book, and then I read King's Bucanner which was OK, but nothing great. Serpent war Saga was just too much. Dull character, Dull plot. Eric and Roo are obvious Mat/Perrin wannabes and i just coudn't understand WTF was the main storyline. In Book one the were trying to stop the dragon lords from returning, Book two had to do with anything except Roo making his fortune, book three they introduced the demon army thing which was ridiculous as it had nothing to do with anything, and the last book was about i don't know what since i dropped that five chapters in. Don't plan on reading any more Feist any time soon, though i did hear the conclave of shadow series or w/r (talon of silver hawk/king of foxes/exile's return) was pretty good.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 1, 2009)

The Feist discussion makes me want to reread the series. I didn't really like them the first time I read them.

Back to The Wheel of Time, I didn't get to finish the book.  My father refused to let me take it back to school with me, so I was cut off around page 550
*Spoiler*: __ 



or whenever Meidani prepares to leave with Verin's body.


But I went ahead and spoiled myself and found most of what I figured would happen in the book did.


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## Ishamael (Dec 1, 2009)

> Robert Jordan said the AS are basically interpretations of his wife.  I wonder if he thought that was a compliment or something.


That is either the worst compliment ever or a pretty bad insult. Considering most of them are bitchy and think they are superior to the world.

Does anyone else find it weird that Mat and Perrin in addition to Min and the rest of the non channelers are going to die a lot sooner then the rest of the characters. Let's say that the average person in their world lives to 60-70, Mat and Perrin got 20-25 years at best. While Rand is going to live to 400+ I assume (unless he takes and oath with a ter'angreal). This would become pretty weird with Min. If Rand does end up with her or has to share him Elayne and Aviendha she will also die a lot sooner then either of them. Does anyone else find them odd?


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## Nae'blis (Dec 1, 2009)

^ *Dragonus Nesha*: READ THE LAST TWO CHAPTERS!!!!!! To do otherwise would be sacrilege. Just Another Man, and Veins of Gold. 



KidTony said:


> I don't know how you stomached the Serpentwar Saga. That was just nigh unreadable.



The same way I stomached books ~5-10 of this series: I tried looking at the bigger picture. But truth to tell I was not that interested in the Serpentwar saga, and I was relatively new to fantasy when I read it. I always skip those books when I reread Feist. You are right in saying that they are similar to Mat/Perrin.


> i love how this guy the Duke of of whatever came back in the story


Aside from the main characters from the Riftwar, Duke Guy du Bas-Tyra is the most memorable name. I can be sitting in the checkout line at a grocery store thinking about mushrooms, and that guys name will just randomly pop up in my thoughts (true story).



> but then again you read the sword of truth series


the Pink Ninja always shits on me when I say this, but it started off rather well even though the characters/philosophies were hard to like. The one main complaint is that Goodkind CLEARLY ripped off Robert Jordan, except that Goodkind is a douche, and Jordan a master.



> Prince of the Blood, god awful book, and then I read King's Bucanner which was OK, but nothing great.


Those books were not well received by anyone, they are basically "Gaiden" books similar to the books which start with _Krondor:______ (Assasins, Betrayal, Tears of the Gods). It's unfortunate you had to read those and stopped Feist because of it. The main story line basically goes like this: _Riftwar Saga_ > _Serpentwar Saga_ > _Conclave of Shadows_ > _Dark War Saga_. _The Empire Trilogy_ isn't part of that main storyline, but unlike the rest of the side stories, it is thoroughly enjoyable. I won't spoil _Conclave of Shadows_ for you in case you do actually intend to read it, but it was good just not _Magician_ good.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 1, 2009)

Ishamael said:


> Does anyone else find it weird that Mat and Perrin in addition to Min and the rest of the non channelers are going to die a lot sooner then the rest of the characters. Let's say that the average person in their world lives to 60-70, Mat and Perrin got 20-25 years at best. While Rand is going to live to 400+ I assume (unless he takes and oath with a ter'angreal). This would become pretty weird with Min. If Rand does end up with her or has to share him Elayne and Aviendha she will also die a lot sooner then either of them. Does anyone else find them odd?



I kind of thought about that too. As far as I understand the series, Lews Therin's wife Ilyena could not channel, and she lived a longer than average life (going by chronology, she must have at the very minimum been 70 years old when LTT overdosed on Saidin, yet she still had her golden hair when Ishamael came to visit). One of the reasons I think she couldn't channel was that she didn't help in the attempted sealing of the bore, and LTT said that not a single one of the female AS agreed with his plans. I imagine she would have agreed with his plans if she were in a position which mattered within the Hall of Servants.

So maybe there was a way in which normal people could live longer (a Philosophers Stone ), and since LTT speaks to Rand... This is mere conjecture though, I doubt we are supposed to care since two of his other future wives actually can channel.


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## Ishamael (Dec 1, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> I kind of thought about that too. As far as I understand the series, Lews Therin's wife Ilyena could not channel, and she lived a longer than average life (going by chronology, she must have at the very minimum been 70 years old when LTT overdosed on Saidin, yet she still had her golden hair when Ishamael came to visit). One of the reasons I think she couldn't channel was that she didn't help in the attempted sealing of the bore, and LTT said that not a single one of the female AS agreed with his plans. I imagine she would have agreed with his plans if she were in a position which mattered within the Hall of Servants.
> 
> So maybe there was a way in which normal people could live longer (a Philosophers Stone ), and since LTT speaks to Rand... This is mere conjecture though, I doubt we are supposed to care since two of his other future wives actually can channel.


Yeah I believe Ilyena couldn't channel either but, I think her hair retaining its color is due to the technology of the time. If I'm not mistaken wasn't it mentioned somewhere that 60 was still considered middle age in the AoL?


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## Nae'blis (Dec 1, 2009)

^ I don't remember that detail, I'll have to look out for it when I read over the series again.

Did we ever find out who the unnamed darkfriend from the Andoran Queens Guard was? He was identified in the prologue of _the Great Hunt_. I don't think it was Mellar as he wasn't part of the Queens Guard then. The only ones I can identify are: Liandrin, Carridin, and Ingtar. There are so many unknowns there.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 2, 2009)

Does the Warder Bond increase lifespan?

And anything short of death can be cured!


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## KidTony (Dec 2, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> ^ I don't remember that detail, I'll have to look out for it when I read over the series again.
> 
> Did we ever find out who the unnamed darkfriend from the Andoran Queens Guard was? He was identified in the prologue of _the Great Hunt_. I don't think it was Mellar as he wasn't part of the Queens Guard then. The only ones I can identify are: Liandrin, Carridin, and Ingtar. There are so many unknowns there.



And the seafolk darkfirends, and the Tinker darkfriends, still don't know who those are. There were Aiel ones too, but i think it was that chick Mat was bangin.


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## Ishamael (Dec 2, 2009)

I didn't think much about those darkfriends. I thought the purpose was more so to convey that there are darkfriends where you least expect them and that the Shadow has connections everywhere. 

Have you guys gotten a chance to see the new ebook cover for TDR?



Personally don't care much for this one, Rand looks like a ginger and it doesn't have an epic feel which the book had. Rand grasping Callandor or fighting Ishy would be much cooler. Not to mention Rand's deformed left arm and the Dragon banner being used as a cloth so Rand doesn't stain himself from the dry tree trunk.


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## Tyrael (Dec 2, 2009)

I always thought Rand was ginger, what with his Aiel roots and all. I'm pretty sure he's been described as ginger a good few times too. As ever, there's a good chance my memory is letting me down though.


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## Dash (Dec 2, 2009)

I've been trying to read this series but I'm such a slow reader, I can never finish one book in one checkout. =/


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## Nae'blis (Dec 2, 2009)

Rand does have red hair, I think Ishamael just doesn't like the shade which was used.



Ishamael said:


> Have you guys gotten a chance to see the new ebook cover for TDR?
> 
> 
> 
> Personally don't care much for this one, Rand looks like a ginger and it doesn't have an epic feel which the book had. Rand grasping Callandor or fighting Ishy would be much cooler. Not to mention Rand's deformed left arm and the Dragon banner being used as a cloth so Rand doesn't stain himself from the dry tree trunk.



_Wheel of Time_ covers are absolutely horrid, but the ebook covers are vastly superior to the shit on the hardcover/paperback which TOR releases.

The book had the cover with Rand about to grasp Callandor iirc, and I think the ebooks try to select scenes which are not the same as the ones on the book. Anyway, this particular scene is interesting in that it has Rand holding the flute but looking away from. It captures the essence of the book where Rand is trying to hold onto his past life but is looking towards where his destiny lies. At least that is how I read that image. As for Rand using the Dragon banner to prevent soiling his breeches with dirt.... well, they had to put the Dragon banner somewhere.


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## KidTony (Dec 2, 2009)

Man, the hard cover covers are horrendous. Seriously, they are bad. The only passable one is the first one, after that they just get worse and worse.


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## Ishamael (Dec 2, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> Rand does have red hair, I think Ishamael just doesn't like the shade which was used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My problem with this one is Rand's skin. It seems to pale. The rest is drawn amazingly, but something from the actual story would have been better.




KidTony said:


> Man, the hard cover covers are horrendous. Seriously, they are bad. The only passable one is the first one, after that they just get worse and worse.



Yeah the first one was decent even if Rand did sort of ruin it. I don't know why they constantly give us crap. Tor's site has tons of great artists but it seems they decide to pick some random person off the street to do the covers. All the characters look to be about 40 and are really short. I doubt Tor will decide to change the style for the final two covers but they should, there are so many capable artists and it seems we get the worst.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 2, 2009)

It's funny that the _Sword of Truth_ has better covers.


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## KidTony (Dec 2, 2009)

Ishamael said:


> My problem with this one is Rand's skin. It seems to pale. The rest is drawn amazingly, but something from the actual story would have been better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol yeah, all the characters look frigging old. When i was looking at the covers i saw the one for Knife of dreams and i thought the old guy in the front was Bashere or something, but it turned out it was frigging Perrin! that man could have been 50 easily by looks.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 3, 2009)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Does the Warder Bond increase lifespan?
> *
> And anything short of death can be cured!*



, yeah but isn't aging a process of death? I don't think changing hair colour is an illness.


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## martryn (Dec 3, 2009)

Modern science claims to have a cure for aging, so I think the power should feasibly be able to handle it as well.


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## Nimander (Dec 4, 2009)

Is there a timetable for the next book's release yet?  IIRC, Sanderson said he was about halfway done with the second book when this book went to the publishers, which was back in June I believe.  So should we be expecting the second book around spring/early summer '10?


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## Tyrael (Dec 4, 2009)

Actually, I think he said it's likely to be out November '10. Even if it is finished, it has to go through revisions, rewrites, edits and then do it again on the next stage. With a book finished, after all that, it's not uncommon for it to be at least six months before it actually gets released. The only reason _The Gathering Storm_ was able to go through the process so quickly was because the publishers were anxious to try and give something to the fans after such a long wait.


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## Nimander (Dec 4, 2009)

So, another birthday release for me then?  

I have no problem with this.


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## Tyrael (Dec 4, 2009)

Fair enough; I'm still waiting for TGS to come out paperback.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 4, 2009)

how long does it normally take?


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## KidTony (Dec 4, 2009)

I  am done.

Finally, but i must say it feels kind of sad. WOT has been a part of my life these last few months. I've grown to love the characters, and the world, and now it feels bittersweet that  i won't have WOT for at least a year. 

TGS thoughts


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Fantastic. Not without flaws, but as satisfying a WOT novel as you'll read aside for the first couple of ones. 

The only thing that really bothered me in a way was the climax. It was awesome from a character's point of view, but i thought we'd have more of an action packed ending. I guess it goes back to the fact that Sanderson approached writing this trilogy as a single book, so we've just witnessed one third of it. Still, i would have liked it to have a more well rounded climax in terms of action--with that it would have been amazing, instead of just damn good.

Other than that though, it was great. I have to say again that Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan. This is not a dis on Jordan, at all, but this has to be acknowledged, because it's true. When it comes to characters and their interactions, and when it comes to pacing Sanderson outclass Jordan and this was clearly seen in this book. Some of the later long WOT novels felt empty, because they were so long yet so little happened during the whole thing. In this one things actually happened, the plot moved a long, Sanderson hardly wasted time with musings that had little impact on the story--if he included something it was with a purpose. I don't want to repeat myself, but it felt Sanderson got twice done in the same amount of space.

Another thing i enjoyed are the characters in this novel. Sanderson took one of my most hated characters, Egwane and made me her fan. He took time and developed her character, her time in the white tower under Elaida's tyrannical reign, and her working step by step to gain the trust of the Aes Sedai and their support.

Secondly, Rand was fucking awesome. As dark as he's ever been, i think I jizzed myself with that Semirage scene where he channeled the true source. That was so awesome, and so satisfying. Watching rand revoke his own edict against killing women, becoming hard and dark, almost killing Tam; Sanderson was really successful in the road he took with Rand. The last chapter "Veins of Gold", just great...

I seriously can't wait for the next book, specially since it should have a lot of Mat in it. Can't wait to see how this series is going to end now. 





I want to thank all of you for listening to my rants and babbling so far, it's great to have a bunch of people that have the same interest and enjoy the same thing. I'm off to read (listen to) LOTR now, before i star AsoIaF, and then move on to Malazan book of the fallen. Who knows, by the time i'm done with that Towers of Midnight might be out already.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 4, 2009)

I used to hate reading Rand's POV, it was boring and his character was starting to grate. For most of the books starting with Mat being healed (and Lanfear arriving in his room) up until _Knife of Dreams_, the only interesting parts were Mat's POV. Rereading the series now, I've made it a point to read all of the POV's even if I find them tedious and annoying. Sanderson made the other characters interesting to read, even Egwene who I hate with a passion. Even Rand isn't just sitting in some hole arrogant as hell drinking fruit punch.

Mat beating the shit out of Gawyn/Galad in the Warder pratice yard is one of those parts which I reread whenever I get to it. Starting from there, Mat's character becomes the best in the series. He starts off rather annoying and childish (bar the scene with the Aiel and the 'Finn), but after his healing he shoots off as the best character in the series.

Interesting to note that Matrim has always been lucky when it comes to gambling, even in the Two Rivers before Moraine came. In Shainar, in the beginning of the _Great Hunt_, he starts to notice his luck being more than usual.


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## KidTony (Dec 5, 2009)

I just realized what your name means....lol, listening to the audio book i thought it was ''Mables'', reading this thread just made me realize.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 5, 2009)

, that name looks/sounds like some cuddly pet or syrup. lol, that is one disadvantage of the audiobook, not being entirely sure how to spell names.

Anyway, once you get to _Lord of the Rings_ you'll think "hmm, Robert Jordan was really inspired by Tolkein". _The Eye of the World_ is probably the book which resembles it the most; with the ~3rd book it basically disappears.


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## KidTony (Dec 5, 2009)

Well I haven't read the books but i own the movies and seen them lots of times, so im somewhat familiar with the story, and yeah Eye of the World seem really similar to the first lotr movie, but not in a bad way.

The first thing I'm noticing though is the prose, Tolkien knows how to write beautiful, it just sounds nice. Jordan was more accessible, but i suspect i'm going to enjoy listening to these audiobooks more because of the beautiful prose.


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## FinalDragon13 (Dec 5, 2009)

oh man i really really want to read these books, but every friken saturday for the last month i've been going to the library hoping to see the first book on the shelf, but its never there : (


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## Tyrael (Dec 5, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> how long does it normally take?



Not sure, but a book a year for the average fantasy writer isn't too unusual. Few can match Sanderson in terms of sheer productivity, but there are a whole swathe of other variables that decide when the book is released, even if fully complete.



Nae'blis said:


> Anyway, once you get to _Lord of the Rings_ you'll think "hmm, Robert Jordan was really inspired by Tolkein". _The Eye of the World_ is probably the book which resembles it the most; with the ~3rd book it basically disappears.



Apparently, Jordan started the books like that in order to attract fantasy fans with the feeling of familiarity. He wanted to evoke Tolkien then move slowly away into a tale of his own.



KidTony said:


> The first thing I'm noticing though is the prose, Tolkien knows how to write beautiful, it just sounds nice. Jordan was more accessible, but i suspect i'm going to enjoy listening to these audiobooks more because of the beautiful prose.



Tolkien's prose is divisive: some insist that he can't write at all, some say he writes too coldly or too academically; personally, I love his writing. Nothing else like it really.



FinalDragon13 said:


> oh man i really really want to read these books, but every friken saturday for the last month i've been going to the library hoping to see the first book on the shelf, but its never there : (



I used to have this trouble all the time. I'd try and get ahold of the next book but they'd always have all of them except the one I am looking for.


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## Ishamael (Dec 5, 2009)

KidTony said:


> Well I haven't read the books but i own the movies and seen them lots of times, so im somewhat familiar with the story, and yeah Eye of the World seem really similar to the first lotr movie, but not in a bad way.
> 
> The first thing I'm noticing though is the prose, Tolkien knows how to write beautiful, it just sounds nice. Jordan was more accessible, but i suspect i'm going to enjoy listening to these audiobooks more because of the beautiful prose.



Have you read/listened to the Hobbit, if not do so. I find it far more enjoyable then of LotR. As for the main series I have a weird relationship with them. The fellowship I thoroughly enjoyed, while The Two Towers I almost hated for some reason and the Return of the King I found really good but not as good as the Hobbit or the Fellowship. I enjoy Tolkiens style but sometimes I find it weird.



FinalDragon13 said:


> oh man i really really want to read these books, but every friken saturday for the last month i've been going to the library hoping to see the first book on the shelf, but its never there : (



Most bookstores carry the WoT, in addition you can find the series very cheap on Amazon or eBay or any site for that matter.


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## martryn (Dec 5, 2009)

Fellowship is definitely the best book, though Two Towers had the best ending:

"Frodo was alive, but taken by the enemy." or something like that.  

Return of the King was hella short. 

I've never actually read the Hobbit.  I've started it probably a dozen times and keep getting to the part with the spiders and for some reason or another I get caught up in something else and don't finish it.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 5, 2009)

Tolkien uses beautiful language. The first time I read Lord of the Rings, beginning of 2000, I hated the story but I couldn't hate the way it was written. Honestly, I was offended by the lack of magic in the story, Gandalf would probably lose against any White Tower Accepted in the battledome. But I got over that and enjoy it for what it is. Frodo/Sam just sound gay every time I read it though.

Libraries never carry the first volume of a series I am interested in reading. I had to buy _Eye of the World, Wizards First Rule, Guardians of the West_ (from David Edding's The Malloreon), _Gardens of the Moon, the Colour of Magic, Assassin's Apprentice, Storm Front_, etc. So many of them.


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## martryn (Dec 5, 2009)

Geez, no wonder they didn't carry Wizard's First Rule.  An ok book by itself.  Above average even.  But that series went down hill like a bowling ball... on a hill.  That's really flat and steep.


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## KidTony (Dec 5, 2009)

Im listening to all three books in one go, a 53 hour audio book, roughly about the size of Lord of Chaos in audio book format, so I'm really treating all three books as if it were a single long WOT novel. I think it works better that way because i won't think of the series as individual novels and won't run into the problem of thinking any of the books are too short or anything of the like.


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## Ishamael (Dec 5, 2009)

martryn said:


> I've never actually read the Hobbit.  I've started it probably a dozen times and keep getting to the part with the spiders and for some reason or another I get caught up in something else and don't finish it.



Blasphemy! The spiders part was meh but the final parts of the book were very well written.



Nae'blis said:


> Tolkien uses beautiful language. The first time I read Lord of the Rings, beginning of 2000, I hated the story but I couldn't hate the way it was written. Honestly, I was offended by the lack of magic in the story, Gandalf would probably lose against any White Tower Accepted in the battledome. But I got over that and enjoy it for what it is. Frodo/Sam just sound gay every time I read it though.



The magic annoyed me to no end. Before I read the series I always thought that Gandalf would be powerful since he is hyped a lot in the intro of The Hobbit and how vital he is to the plot, but its ridiculous how weak he really is, I think the only truly magical thing he did was a thunderbolt if I recall and some blinding spell.



KidTony said:


> Im listening to all three books in one go, a 53 hour audio book, roughly about the size of Lord of Chaos in audio book format, so I'm really treating all three books as if it were a single long WOT novel. I think it works better that way because i won't think of the series as individual novels and won't run into the problem of thinking any of the books are too short or anything of the like.


 Tolkien originally wanted to make the books one novel, but editors thought that buyers would be intimidated by the size of it, so it was split into three.


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## Tyrael (Dec 5, 2009)

I think the fact that Gandalf so rarely uses magic is part of what makes him such an interesting character. He's not a wizard who just goes about spamming spells to solve all of his problems; questions could be raised as to whether or not magic does actually solve problems at all.

Funnily enough, Jordan seems to make a brilliant argument in his books about why magic shouldn't be relied upon. If I was to try and make myself sound intelligent, I'd probably try and make it sound like a metaphor for something...


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## KidTony (Dec 5, 2009)

I like the fact that there's little magic, that's one reason why I'm so eager to read AsoIaF. I don't mind magic usage, but most fantasy series that make use of it over saturate you with it like WOT. I think having too much magic takes away from the story, it makes writers lazier by having portal stones and gateways which imo are horrible plot devices which take away from one of my favorite part of fantasy, world exploration. There's also too much of a chance that the main conflict will be resolved through some contrived magical means, I much rather see magic in the background, rarely use, if used at all. I like fantasy for the world building, different races, political conflicts etc--the magic is really an afterthought and i could do just as well without it.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 6, 2009)

I don't like different races, at least I don't want to read about Orks/Goblins/Trolls/Elves/etc and everyone in a "race" war. Just give me some humans kthx.


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## KidTony (Dec 6, 2009)

I do. As long as it's not the same elves/dwarfs/orcs every time. Just give me some different unique ones with their own culture, like the ogier for example.


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## Ishamael (Dec 6, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I think the fact that Gandalf so rarely uses magic is part of what makes him such an interesting character. He's not a wizard who just goes about spamming spells to solve all of his problems; questions could be raised as to whether or not magic does actually solve problems at all.



Does he even have spells to spam? He's an interesting character but for a "wizard" I 'd like to see some more magic.



KidTony said:


> I like the fact that there's little magic, that's one reason why I'm so eager to read AsoIaF. I don't mind magic usage, but most fantasy series that make use of it over saturate you with it like WOT. I think having too much magic takes away from the story, it makes writers lazier by having portal stones and gateways which imo are horrible plot devices which take away from one of my favorite part of fantasy, world exploration. There's also too much of a chance that the main conflict will be resolved through some contrived magical means, I much rather see magic in the background, rarely use, if used at all. I like fantasy for the world building, different races, political conflicts etc--the magic is really an afterthought and i could do just as well without it.



I like a good dose of magic in my fantasy books. The One Power I think is to convenient, almost anything is possible with it and I do think it is overused at times but I think its convenience is necessary to the plot.



Nae'blis said:


> I don't like different races, at least I don't want to read about Orks/Goblins/Trolls/Elves/etc and everyone in a "race" war. Just give me some humans kthx.



Same here. It always seems to be the same thing, everybody hates everybody and every race thinks they are superior and they have had thousands of wars. That's what I enjoy about the Ogier and Trollocs, they are very unique, the Ogier mind their own business, don't have a superiority complex, and get along with humans when they need to, while the Trollocs just kill because they enjoy it.


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## KidTony (Dec 7, 2009)

So it turns out the audio book i had dled for LOTR is crappy quality, so im dropping that for now. Started reading a game of thrones last night ,so far is very good.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 7, 2009)

You'll probably be looking for chapter files that are ~25mb. Obviously some chapters are longer than others, but if most of the chapters are ~11 then you have the wrong dl. I always dl an audiobook before I actually buy it (good thing I didn't buy the _Wizard's First Rule_ audiobook, the reader is fucking retarded), and the _Lord of the Rings_ one was ~2.5GB. That also included the _Silmarillion._

So who here actually hasn't finished _the Gathering Storm_ yet? I have so many questions.


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## Damaris (Dec 7, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> You'll probably be looking for chapter files that are ~25mb. Obviously some chapters are longer than others, but if most of the chapters are ~11 then you have the wrong dl. I always dl an audiobook before I actually buy it (good thing I didn't buy the _Wizard's First Rule_ audiobook, the reader is fucking retarded), and the _Lord of the Rings_ one was ~2.5GB. That also included the _Silmarillion._
> 
> So who here actually hasn't finished _the Gathering Storm_ yet? I have so many questions.



I finished it.

But really, I just want to say I'm so jealous of your name.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 7, 2009)

. 

Some of the Forsaken have really aesthetically pleasing names, more than most of the other main characters. Semirhage, Demandred, Moridin, Moghedien, etc. 

About to start (when I say "about" I mean "in 3 weeks after exams") _The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever_.


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## Damaris (Dec 7, 2009)

Mmm yes, I love the Forsaken's names. But I think that is because I'm such an AoL nut. I always want to know more about that time period in Randland.


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## Nimander (Dec 8, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> You'll probably be looking for chapter files that are ~25mb. Obviously some chapters are longer than others, but if most of the chapters are ~11 then you have the wrong dl. I always dl an audiobook before I actually buy it (good thing I didn't buy the _Wizard's First Rule_ audiobook, the reader is fucking retarded), and the _Lord of the Rings_ one was ~2.5GB. That also included the _Silmarillion._
> 
> So who here actually hasn't finished _the Gathering Storm_ yet? I have so many questions.



I haven't seen anybody say they hadn't read it yet post in a while.  Even KidTony, who was just beginning the series, has already finished tGS.  I'd venture a guess that it's safe to start talking about it w/o spoiler tags.

And yes; the Forsaken do have some of the most awesome names in the series.  I almost wish Jordan had made a kind of "behind-the-scenes" book regarding what exactly inspired the different aspects, nations and names in the series.  But he's gone now.


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## KidTony (Dec 8, 2009)

ishamael probably hasn't gotten to it yet since i htink he's in Path of Daggers at the momment.


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## Tyrael (Dec 8, 2009)

I ain't read it yet, although I'm not gonna get to it in a while so I should probably shun this thread out of fear of spoilers.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 11, 2009)

I wonder who taught Moraine balefire. I want to say it was either Adeleas or Vandene.


lol, Michael Kramer, the guy who reads the male parts of the _Wheel of Time_ audiobooks, also does Sanderson's _Mistborn_. His tone is a lot like what he does in _the Gathering Storm_, it sounds like he needs a throat lozenge. Honestly it is jarring listening to the earlier books (up until Knife of Dreams) then being exposed to _Gathering Storm_. Kate Reading sounds the same throughout.


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## Magus (Dec 12, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> I wonder who taught Moraine balefire. I want to say it was either Adeleas or Vandene.



Didn?t Moraine and co stop up at Adeleas and Vandene?s retirement home at some point earlier in the story while they were on the run? It was while there Moraine did some studying from some forbidden books to learn the weave for balefire. That?s what I understood of her time there based on the events that immediately followed, anyway. I think that?s what happened, so hopefully these thoughts aren?t just figments of my imagination. Can?t remember for sure since it?s been so long since I read those early books.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 12, 2009)

Yes, she and Lan went there after Ordeith/Fain escaped Shienar. She studied some of their notes/books, but when she was there I don't remember her saying she specifically learned any forbidden weaves. At the same time she could only have learned it there, as you say, based on the events which followed in the GH/DR.


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## Tyrael (Dec 12, 2009)

I remember there was some discussion about when the next book would be out:


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## Nae'blis (Dec 13, 2009)

As long as it's not released in December or 2011.


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## Damaris (Dec 14, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> As long as it's not released in December or 2011.



Why not


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## Nae'blis (Dec 14, 2009)

because I can tell/suggest/nudge-nudge people to buy it for me on my birthday if it's released in November.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 14, 2009)

I finally got to finish the book! :WOW

*Spoiler*: __ 



So who is Mesaana, the last truly-female Forsaken, masquerading as? From the descriptions of her dresses, she doesn't seem to be a servant, and the collared-Forsaken position was already filled by Moghedien, so I don't expect her to be in the hands of the Seanchan.

Semirhage _and_ Graendal are not only dead but also burned away!? I wanted to hear more about Semirhage's experiments and discoveries; she also wasn't as featured in other books as Graendal was. Rand did seem rather Balefire-happy in this book.

Lews Therin is also gone.  I liked some of his commentary and knowledge.

Also, near the end of the book, Egwene was thinking over a list of names of women sent somewhere and how they hadn't been heard from. I don't remember this group being sent anywhere.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 14, 2009)

some where sent to the Black Tower.


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## KidTony (Dec 15, 2009)

so who is Mesana posing as? Any theories?


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## Nae'blis (Dec 16, 2009)

So now I realize that I don't like Graendal . At first I was willing to believe that she did that whole "look at my pretties" thing to maintain her ruse, but she does that shit even in private too. All she does is sit in her manor house and think about how beautiful her pets are and how she would like to have more pretties. 

As for who Mesaana is, I don't know any of the Sisters well enough to hazard a guess. Her plans are bound to fail anyway, the "Aes'sedai fighting on our side this time" is not going to happen.


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## Nimander (Dec 18, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> So now I realize that I don't like Graendal . At first I was willing to believe that she did that whole "look at my pretties" thing to maintain her ruse, but she does that shit even in private too. All she does is sit in her manor house and think about how beautiful her pets are and how she would like to have more pretties.
> 
> As for who Mesaana is, I don't know any of the Sisters well enough to hazard a guess. Her plans are bound to fail anyway, *the "Aes'sedai fighting on our side this time" is not going to happen.*



*snorts*


*Spoiler*: __ 



You got that right.  Egwene smoked the rats out her cellar with fire and brimstone.  She did not mess around with them.  Her handling of the Black Ajah was, honestly, one of my favorite parts in an all-around awesome book.


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## martryn (Dec 18, 2009)

I don't know.  There are a shit ton of black sister roaming around.  Obviously they're going to be rounded up and brought to bear against the rest of the White Tower and the forces of light.


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## Nimander (Dec 18, 2009)

True, but in that case they'll be Dreadlords/ladies(?), not Aes Sedai per se.  And they're gonna have the real Aes Sedai and the Seanchan damane to deal with.  There might be a shit ton of black Sisters out there, but they're generally outnumbered and outclassed in the One Power by their opponents (Alivia, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene and that one old lady that's supposed to be as strong as humanly possible in the OP are all on the good guys side).  So unless the Dark One makes the True Power widely accessible to his soldiers, they're kinda screwed.


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## martryn (Dec 18, 2009)

> True, but in that case they'll be Dreadlords/ladies(?), not Aes Sedai per se. And they're gonna have the real Aes Sedai and the Seanchan damane to deal with. There might be a shit ton of black Sisters out there, but they're generally outnumbered and outclassed in the One Power by their opponents



You forget about the massive army of channelers that will likely be coming from the other side of the Aiel Waste, where most people assume Demandred is hanging out.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 18, 2009)

yeah, probably Shara. The possibility of the "Borderlands" being a red herring is  likely, but if he is there than it would be in Sheinar.


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## Nimander (Dec 18, 2009)

That's a good point, Martryn.  My own theory was that Demandred is forming his army in Shara, but was it ever said that Shara has a large number of channelers?

IIRC, the Sharan rulers are a pair of channelers, one male and one female.  The rest of the women channelers are kept in their own separate village, and the male channelers are used as breeding stock basically.

Man.  It's been a while, so my facts are probably way off except for the first sentence, which I'm pretty sure of.  But I'll admit; Demandred coming from across the Aiel Waste with an army of not just soldiers, but channelers in tow would be a major coup.  Rand has accounted for nearly everything else but Demandred and this would throw him off balance completely.


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## martryn (Dec 19, 2009)

> That's a good point, Martryn. My own theory was that Demandred is forming his army in Shara, but was it ever said that Shara has a large number of channelers?
> 
> IIRC, the Sharan rulers are a pair of channelers, one male and one female. The rest of the women channelers are kept in their own separate village, and the male channelers are used as breeding stock basically.
> 
> Man. It's been a while, so my facts are probably way off except for the first sentence, which I'm pretty sure of. But I'll admit; Demandred coming from across the Aiel Waste with an army of not just soldiers, but channelers in tow would be a major coup. Rand has accounted for nearly everything else but Demandred and this would throw him off balance completely.



Well, it's been long enough since the Forsaken have been free, and we know that Shara is in an uproar over something, and that they have channelers just sitting around, both male and female, not really doing anything.  I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Demandred has completely taken over Shara and have marshaled their forces into some sort of military super power.


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## Yulwei (Dec 20, 2009)

Fool that I am I decided, contrary to my declaration earlier in the thread, to pick up the 1st  book in WoT. I'm about halfway through and it's neither the best thing I've read nor is it the worst. I reckon I can read more but I doubt I'll become a raving fan


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## martryn (Dec 20, 2009)

The series really hits a high point in the middle of Book 4, I believe.  There are enough epic moments spaced throughout the rest of the series to make reading it worth it, especially if you use an online guide to help jog your memory of whom is whom and where the fuck certain people are.  

Once you really get into it, and start with the theorizing, the series really shines.  Because of the complexity of the world I'd easily put it up there on par with other fantasy giants.  It might not have as great a story as Song of Ice and Fire, or be as introspective and personal as Thomas Covenant, but it's got it's on thing going for it.


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## KidTony (Dec 21, 2009)

If you don't like the first book i don't see how this series is going to keep your interest, since it's arguably the best one.


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## Nimander (Dec 21, 2009)

The first one?  The best?  

Perish the thought.

If anything, I'd rank both TDR and TGH higher than TEotW.  And they aren't even my favorites in the series.

To me, Jordan was one of those authors who progressively got better as the series progressed, until around CoT for me.  That's when the story kinda started coasting, until TGS came out recently and reignited my interest.  But the long wait for TGS might've had a hand in my enjoyment of it as well.

*disclaimer*  Everything said above has been my opinion, and should not be taken as anything more than that.


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## Yulwei (Dec 21, 2009)

I didn't say I didn't like I simply said it doesn't leave me with any strong emotions. That being said if this book is as good as it gets and the rest are either the same or worse I can't see myself reading every book. I'm interested in reading the next but I expect it like every other long running series I've read to get better as the series goes on.

Reading the blurb on the back of the later books it sounds like it gets more exciting so I'm surprised you say this is the best.


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## Damaris (Dec 21, 2009)

TFoH was my favorite book.

But that's because I love love love Aviendha


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## Nimander (Dec 21, 2009)

Aviendha is cool, but most of the time I'm ambivalent towards her.  For some reason, Egwene's character development was among one of the best in the series IMO, which is why she's one of my favorite characters.


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## KidTony (Dec 21, 2009)

Nimander said:


> The first one?  The best?
> 
> Perish the thought.
> 
> ...



Completely disagree with that. I thought the first four were about the same in quality, with the first being the best. I thought from 5-10 they were pretty bad. As a fan of the series i found things i liked, but all of them tested my patience, and some (PoD and CoT) were nigh unreadable. Book 11 was good and it got back on track with the quality i expected of the first four and the latest one was fantastic, one of the best in the series. But really, Yuluwei dropped AsoIaF for god knows what reason. If he got bored with that series i think there's just NO WAY IN HELL he's going to have the patience to get through books 5-10 since the plot progression of some of those books is as long as two pages worth of discussion in this thread.


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## Damaris (Dec 21, 2009)

Nimander said:


> Aviendha is cool, but most of the time I'm ambivalent towards her.  For some reason, Egwene's character development was among one of the best in the series IMO, which is why she's one of my favorite characters.



Yeah, I think I love Aviendha more for what I know she can be, rather than what the series has done with her. 


Egwene has the best development of anyone. I re-read the first chapters of the first book after I finished TGS and the difference between who she was and what she is...I never saw that coming. And it seems so natural.


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## Magus (Dec 22, 2009)

tsundere said:


> Egwene has the best development of anyone. I re-read the first chapters of the first book after I finished TGS and the difference between who she was and what she is...I never saw that coming. And it seems so natural.





> You may go far. Perhaps even the Amyrlin Seat, one day, if you study hard and work hard.



- Moiraine (p. 171 [pb] The Eye of The World, Across the Taren)

Yeah, didn't see Egwene's plot line coming or anything. Nope, not from a mile away.


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## Damaris (Dec 22, 2009)

Magus said:


> Yeah, didn't see Egwene's plot line coming or anything. Nope, not from a mile away.



That was in the first half of a book I hadn't read in 5 years when I read the book where Egwene became Amyrlin. Stop being anal.

And besides, I said development, not plotline. She easily could have become Amyrlin without getting as kickass as she did.


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## Magus (Dec 22, 2009)

tsundere said:


> That was in the first half of a book I hadn't read in 5 years when I read the book where Egwene became Amyrlin. Stop being anal.



The point is there was forshadowing very early in the book about what Egwene would become. Similar forshadowing also exists for Rand, Mat and Perrin.



tsundere said:


> And besides, I said development, not plotline. She easily could have become Amyrlin without getting as kickass as she did.



You're kidding, right? If Egwene hadn't become so "kickass" she would still be scrubbin' pots and kissin' (everyone's) ass. She'd be without the Stole draping her shoulders and nowhere near the Amyrlin Seat.


----------



## Damaris (Dec 22, 2009)

Magus said:


> You're kidding, right? If Egwene hadn't become so "kickass" she would still be scrubbin' pots and kissin' (everyone's) ass. She'd be without the Stole draping her shoulders and nowhere near the Amyrlin Seat.



But they put her on the Amyrlin Seat for the rebels before she really got her development...it's kind of the other way around.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 22, 2009)

tsundere said:


> But they put her on the Amyrlin Seat for the rebels before she really got her development...it's kind of the other way around.


No, she became fairly "kickass" after her time with the Aiel. The Sitters simply underestimated Egwene; Siuan and Leane knew better.


----------



## Yulwei (Dec 22, 2009)

Well, I've finished it. I have to say the ending battle could've been done better. It seemed rushed and confused and I didn't even know what was happening until Moraine's explanation. 

Despite Rand appearing to be the main character I have to say I like Perrin the most. Does he feature a lot in the second book?


----------



## Damaris (Dec 22, 2009)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> No, she became fairly "kickass" after her time with the Aiel. The Sitters simply underestimated Egwene; Siuan and Leane knew better.



She certainly got more assertive after her time with the Aiel, but I'd still say that she had to grow into the role of Amyrlin. Being placed in that position was what made her character better, especially with the challenges she faced there.



Yulwei said:


> Well, I've finished it. I have to say the ending battle could've been done better. It seemed rushed and confused and I didn't even know what was happening until Moraine's explanation.
> 
> Despite Rand appearing to be the main character I have to say I like Perrin the most. Does he feature a lot in the second book?



As far as I can recall...yes 
Maybe I'm getting it mixed up with the third. Either way, I think he gets a lot of page time in the second and third books. Throughout the whole series actually.


----------



## martryn (Dec 23, 2009)

Perrin's best books, in my opinion, are the third and fourth books.  Book four is where he gets fucking epic.


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## KidTony (Dec 23, 2009)

Yulwei said:


> Well, I've finished it. I have to say the ending battle could've been done better. It seemed rushed and confused and I didn't even know what was happening until Moraine's explanation.
> 
> Despite Rand appearing to be the main character I have to say I like Perrin the most. Does he feature a lot in the second book?



He gets about the same level of feature in the second book. Though his appeal begins to dwindle A LOT later on in the series when his wolf subplot is pushed to the back in favor of other shittier subplots. There's a point where he spends like 4 books chasing someone and at the same time doing absolutely nothing. His best book is by far book 4.

You will, however, come to really like Mat if you continue the series. After book three he begins to grow on you. He's the sort of character that epic things keep happening to even though he's always trying to run away from them. It becomes really fun reading his interactions with other characters and the stuff that keeps happening to him. It's really epic.


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## Mori` (Dec 23, 2009)

martryn said:


> Perrin's best books, in my opinion, are the third and fourth books.  Book four is where he gets fucking epic.



Just duck and cover on Perrin's involvement in the last few >_>

====

I've avoided really reading this thread since I don't want spoilers so I don't know who has and who wasn't...but has anyone read the new book? I completely forgot it was due out this October (in part due to release dates for other notable series being constantly pushed back). Anyway, I've just swanned around and saw a few positive reviews so I decided to buy it and finish what I've started.

Just got to skim through a series recap pdf tonight to remember anything I'm shaky on heh


----------



## KidTony (Dec 23, 2009)

^ most of us have read it by now. IMO is one of the best in the series, top four for sure for me, maybe top three.


----------



## Mori` (Dec 23, 2009)

I'll be sure to post my thoughts on it once I'm done (or as I go) in that case ^^


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## Yulwei (Dec 23, 2009)

Mat seemed okay but since he was pretty much possessed for most of the book I didn't really get to see the real him.

Alas I won't be reading book 2 any time soon. The Library is being silly with the book because Christmas is soon so I won't get it till the 29th if that. I could buy it but I don't like the series that much yet and it'd arrive at the same time anyway due to the postal service being swamped around now.


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## Nimander (Dec 25, 2009)

Moridin said:


> I'll be sure to post my thoughts on it once I'm done (or as I go) in that case ^^



Looking forward to your thoughts on it.  It easily became my favorite book of the series TBH, though my memories of the rest of the books are mostly of the overall plot and impressions and not necessarily specific events.

But if you like Egwene's character, you'll love her in this book.  Same kinda goes for Rand, though I do feel that his development near the end of the book was kinda...weirdly written (maybe it's just me, but the scene felt kinda awkward; you'll know it when you get to it).  Mat...I won't start on Mat.


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 28, 2009)

The second ter'angreal that Wise One apprentices enter is the glass column  one that Rand entered in  the Shadow Rising, right?


----------



## Magus (Dec 28, 2009)

Nae'blis said:


> The second ter'angreal that Wise One apprentices enter is the glass column  one that Rand entered in  the Shadow Rising, right?



I think so. It represents a trial all apprentices go through to ensure they’re woman enough to become a Wise One. Through the glass columns... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



one can view the past to see where your people have come from and what they’ve done to get to where they are. For many Aiel what they see comes as a great shock and shames them.


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## Damaris (Dec 29, 2009)

Nimander said:


> Looking forward to your thoughts on it.  It easily became my favorite book of the series TBH, though my memories of the rest of the books are mostly of the overall plot and impressions and not necessarily specific events.
> 
> But if you like Egwene's character, you'll love her in this book.  *Same kinda goes for Rand, though I do feel that his development near the end of the book was kinda...weirdly written (maybe it's just me, but the scene felt kinda awkward; you'll know it when you get to it).*  Mat...I won't start on Mat.



I wasn't the only one?!
*Spoiler*: __ 





Yeah that was the only bit I didn't like. It was like two pages and just odd. I mean, of course I'd hoped Aviendha would be involved in his humanizing and was disappointed because she wasn't, but even objectively...it was just an awkward scene.


----------



## Mori` (Dec 30, 2009)

TGS was one of the best WoT books I've read in ages, I very much enjoyed it. If I hadn't passed all my old books on to a second hand bookshop a few months I'd be tempted to re-read the whole thing, this book really reminded me what I loved about the series in the first place.


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## Yulwei (Jan 3, 2010)

Well, I've finished the second one and it's something of an improvement over the first. There wasn't nearly as much Perrin as I was told but the 3rd book seems so far to be bursting at the seams with focus on him.  I'm hoping Egwene gets over this whole they'll never capture me again thing because it's almost as bad if not moreso than Nyneave's attempts to blame everything on Moraine. I should also say I'm not a fan of everyone falls in love with Rand but I suppose it's less about him being a Casanova and more about him being Tavereen [sp?] so it's somewhat easier to swallow though still sickening


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 4, 2010)

It's not that hard to believe about Rand, especially considering most of the female characters basically fall in love at first sight. Every girl in the Two Rivers seemed to like Rand because he was tall and somewhat muscular. He is pretty enough to be one of... well let me just leave it at that. 

I posted earlier (like 3 months ago) a question about the average age of non-channelers in the Age of Legends. Well, that Da'shain Aiel from the glass column ter'angreal was 60 or something, and he considered himself below middle years. I guess they lived longer back then even if they couldn't channel.


----------



## Yulwei (Jan 4, 2010)

I've no problem with women lusting after him but there's a difference between lusting after someone and declaring him the love of your life. I thought relationships in the Malazan world sprang up from nowhere but this book is giving it a run for it's money and from what I hear Rand's love life is only going to get crazier.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 4, 2010)

well, that's what I'm trying to say. Robert Jordan wasn't overly concerned with developing what I would call meaningful romantic relationships. Rand's case might be slightly different though, there is a sense that the girls who love him are somehow tied to his soul and were destined to love him.


----------



## Yulwei (Jan 4, 2010)

Hmm, well, I guess I can live with it. I'm 2/3rds through the Dragon Reborn and there's a chronic lack of Rand and whenever we do see him he seems to be getting steadily more insane. As people suggested I am starting to like Mat.


----------



## Mori` (Jan 4, 2010)

Rands relationship situation is...awkward. I think relationships in general are one of the weaker points of the series really.

I have fond memories of TDR, particularly the last third =p 

TGS entertained me enough that I got TEOTW out of the library to have a little re-read, looking forward to looking that far back for the first time in year.


----------



## Yulwei (Jan 5, 2010)

The ending wasn't as epic as people suggested it was. I also found Rand's sudden control of his power rather surprising. Unless he's remembering stuff from his past life in which case it's okay. Nyneave and Egwene also seem to pull stuff out of nowhere but at least they've got some training and they've observed most of the spells they've performed being performed by others.

Mat seems to get more and more epic. Perrin seems to have accepted his true nature and be taking advantage of it so it's looking like his tale will be fairly interesting


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 5, 2010)

*Spoiler*: __ 



With the destruction of the Choedan Kal, are we to assume Rand is also past his temptation to use the True Power?


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I don't think the two are linked aside from the comment Rand made about it. But with the assumed disposition at the end of the novel I doubt we will be seeing it again from Rand.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 5, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I don't think the two are linked aside from the comment Rand made about it. But with the assumed disposition at the end of the novel I doubt we will be seeing it again from Rand.


Rand had taken to carrying the Choedan Kal around with him to tempt him away from using the True Power; the pull of one enormous power counterbalancing the pull of another enormous power. But with the Choedan Kal destroyed, the equation becomes very one-sided, unless his inner transformation somehow stops the temptation to use the True Power.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 7, 2010)

^lol.

Nesha: yes, I thought that was what you meant. If he didn't change his outlook in general, than I think he would have been tempted to use it. Considering how tempting the source is, especially with those sa'angreal, it's saying something that Rand was able to do what he did at the end. He is rather good at avoiding the temptation of the source, he has been avoiding it for 1000 many reasons in the other novels, his willpower should be enough to prevent him from using the TP again.

I think if he does ever touch it again, it would not be from a temptation to hold that power. Rather mechanations from the dark lord or moridin, or to save his own life. I don't think Rand truly appreciated the fact that he was channeling the TP, but then again the end of the novel suggests that he now does have a better understanding of things.


----------



## Mori` (Jan 7, 2010)

Yulwei said:


> The ending wasn't as epic as people suggested it was. I also found Rand's sudden control of his power rather surprising. Unless he's remembering stuff from his past life in which case it's okay.



A minor clarification on the subject if you want it, I'll tag it just in case.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Rands seemingly intuitive control of the one power - particularly early on - is certainly enhanced by/rooted in his past life/lives. That will play a bigger part later.






Dragonus Nesha said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> With the destruction of the Choedan Kal, are we to assume Rand is also past his temptation to use the True Power?




*Spoiler*: __ 



I wondered about this a bit, he was carrying it around to balance the temptation so it's strange if the other is just lurking there now. I did briefly ponder whether he might have snapped on the mountain top too, and the laughter was that of a mad man, but I'm not sure I can see the story going that way this late.

I want a Moridin pov on what he felt when Rand was using the TP...or as to whether he gave Rand access to it somehow.


----------



## Yulwei (Jan 7, 2010)

I just acquired New Spring and I wanted to ask whether this book will spoil anything for me since I've only read up to book 3 of the main series


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## Nae'blis (Jan 7, 2010)

^ No it won't spoil anything. 



Moridin said:


> I want a Moridin pov on what he felt when Rand was using the TP...or as to whether he gave Rand access to it somehow.[/spoiler]



Probably what I am waiting for the most.


----------



## Rhaella (Jan 8, 2010)

Moridin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I want a Moridin pov on what he felt when Rand was using the TP...or as to whether he gave Rand access to it somehow.




*Spoiler*: __ 



At this point, I just want Moridin PoVs. Because he's moved up in my list of favourites from... well, a distant #2 to a fairly close #2. Hah.

I think my favourite scene in the new book (with the possible exception of Rand's epiphany) was that dream between him and Rand, because the only thing more interesting than finally seeing what his logic looked like (which I've been wondering about for a very long time) was that weird... weary passiveness, I'd almost say.

Also, I shall continue to mourn Graendal, even though I think that really was the best way to handle her.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 8, 2010)

Yulwei said:


> Hmm, well, I guess I can live with it. I'm 2/3rds through the Dragon Reborn and there's a chronic lack of Rand and whenever we do see him he seems to be getting steadily more insane. As people suggested I am starting to like Mat.



If you already like Mat just from TDR, you're gonna fucking love him when he really hits his stride later on in the series.  I'm not lying when I say Mat is one of the main reasons why I like this series.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> With the destruction of the Choedan Kal, are we to assume Rand is also past his temptation to use the True Power?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes and no.  Yes, as he probably won't be tempted to use it again, but no in the sense that he'll be forced to use it again, and probably more than once I'm thinking.  The True Power is there to stay.






Rhaella said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm still convinced that Moridin is going to help Rand in the future in some way, even if it's for something as trite as "just seeing what happens".  He truly does seem tired with everything, even if he is indeed playing his role to perfection.  But the whole "we're destined to fight this same battle, again and again, through the depths of time until either the Dark One wins or the Wheel stops" sentiment is really seeming to wear him down.

And yes, Rand's handling of Graendal was...efficient.  Despite what the other characters in the story think, Rand needed that ruthless core to accomplish a lot of the things he's accomplished.


----------



## Rhaella (Jan 9, 2010)

Nimander said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It's one of those things where he really _could_ argued around. It'd be hard as hell, of course, and beyond anyone who's not the most awesome White ever which was probably him in the first place, but it's actually possible here.

Re: Rand's ruthless core. Double edged sword, I'd say, since as much as he could get done with it, it did damn well nearly destroy him. And the whole world. The little battles aren't worth much if had he shattered when the big one finally hit, which was where he was heading.

Though I do think that he'll be a... I don't want to say _better_ person, because that's not really the point, but certainly a more effective and deeper one now, having come through that terrible sort of growth.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 9, 2010)

Sοulcatcher said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I for one would love to see Moridin's reaction to Rand 4.0 (we're on the fourth Rand model now after his little conversion on the mountaintop) from this point forward.  He thinks he understands Rand's motivations and way of thinking, and now that that's changed I do wonder what the effect will be on Moridin.

And yeah, Rand's ruthlessness was definitely a double-edged sword.  Notice how Jordan/Sanderson wrote it so that Rand spurned the Empress *before* he got "better".  That was definitely done for a reason.  It lends even more credibility to the Seanchan version of the Dragon Prophecies, where he bows down before the Empress and so on.  

While Ruthless Rand (Rand 3.0 I call him) definitely had his moments, I am looking forward to how his character develops in the next book.  He's gonna be eating humble pie until he can't walk anymore. 





P.S. Nice namechange


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## Mori` (Jan 9, 2010)

Nimander said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> And yeah, Rand's ruthlessness was definitely a double-edged sword.  Notice how Jordan/Sanderson wrote it so that Rand spurned the Empress *before* he got "better".  That was definitely done for a reason.  It lends even more credibility to the Seanchan version of the Dragon Prophecies, where he bows down before the Empress and so on.



*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 



The meeting was in line with the original version of the prophecies too. Tuon didn't declare herself empress so she could meet with the dragon reborn on the same level, which amusingly means that the prophecy "and he will bind the nine moons to serve him" couldn't be fulfilled at that time. Now she's declared herself Empress as Fortuona she becomes the nine moons and thus will end up bound to Rands cause heh (possibly as a result of him kneeling when negotiating for the second time and fulfilling both versions).


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## Rhaella (Jan 9, 2010)

Nimander said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hmm. Not necessarily, I think, though it's definitely a possibility. If he hasn't recovered fully even now, then yeah, tons of humble pie indeed. But I think if he's really where he needs to be, he'll have calmed down and become human again, but will hopefully have put the past behind him to the point where he doesn't even see the need to regret it. Beyond arrogance and humility altogether, I'm hoping.

Though either way, I'll be surprised if he doesn't go back to the Seanchan as a supplicant rather than as a conqueror.




Thanks. You've read Glen Cook too?


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## Nimander (Jan 9, 2010)

No, I haven't read Glen Cook yet.

Actually, scratch that.  I haven't read "The Black Company" yet, which is the series he's famous for.  I read one of his more recent ones actually, the name of which escapes me now.  And though it was okay writing, it really didn't stick in my mind strongly enough for me to check up on the sequels and when they'd come out.


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## Yulwei (Jan 10, 2010)

After reading New Spring I have to say I actually like Moraine less. She seemed to me to be a shining example of what an Aes Sedai should be but now I discover that she was as rebellious and mischievous as Egwene and her pals at a point when she should have known better and may very well still be only better at hiding it. In addition the fact we get told time and time again of what Moraine could do with her jewel and what people think she can do and then we don't get to see her do anything other than wear it in this book. I'd have thought they'd have at least given a quick word of about how Siun became Amrylin in the Epilogue but not a word. Finally the fact they were aware of the Black Ajah at that point makes the fact they appear to have been caught with their pants down by Liandrin et al rather surprising.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 17, 2010)

The impression I got was that Moraine used the pendent as a focus to eavesdrop on conversations when she was young. I don't remember if she used it for that purpose in New Spring.

As for Suian being watcher of the seals, well, she was only just raised accepted in New Spring. It is more an account of how Lan and Moraine met, and explains the Aiel attitude towards Aan'allein and the beginning of the quest for the Dragon Reborn (and IIRC) a few of the important aes'sedai (Gitara, etc). But then again I never tried to see New Spring as an individual stand alone novel, more of a "gaiden" which explains a few things. Lan was fucking awesome in that book.


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## Yulwei (Jan 17, 2010)

Pretty sure both of them became Aes Sedai in New Spring and started the book as Accepted.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 17, 2010)

that's what I meant.


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## Yulwei (Jan 17, 2010)

My appreciation of Lan certainly improved. Moraine didn't do anything with her pendant although she made some reference to having her own personal spells which could be her eavesdropping weave.

My problem aside from those already mentioned is that the book left the characters in questionable situations and then did nothing to resolve them. The Amrylin at the time seemed completely incompetent or possibly a member of the Black Ajah working to destroy the Sisterhood. Moraine seemed completely out of favour with damn near every Aes Sedai and Siun looked to me like she was going to be deep in the brown stuff when she got back to the Tower. We never learn what happened to the previous Amrylin nor why Siun was chosen to replace her although it's implied that she has a sharper mind than the average Aes Sedai. Did Moraine's cover up of that black Ajah's action get her back in their good books or what


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 17, 2010)

Those might have been things Jordan had slated to cover in other side books; he had been planning several.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 17, 2010)

SH, you truly are the heart of evil . I had successfully been able to forget that Jordan planned to write a novel(s) dealing with Mat/Tuon after the events of the main story. It would have been interesting seeing how he consolidates power in Seandar. Because we all know... on the heights, the paths are paved with daggers.


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## Nimander (Jan 17, 2010)

Sanderson might still write those sequel novels, depending on the depths of the notes Jordan left.  But then again, who knows how it would've been received anyway, so...*shrugs*


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## Nae'blis (Jan 23, 2010)

^ I doubt it, he has his own series to think of, and I think he already put his own work on hold until he finished Memory of Light.

lol, but I had a dream a few weeks ago that GRRM wrote a Wheel of Time. I woke up thinking that maybe Elayne's getting the throne of Andor might have been more exciting/readable if he had, and a few of the other characters Egwene might have been killed off by now. Nothing really horrible happens to characters, and the negative things only happen to the villains.


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## Nimander (Jan 23, 2010)

Ugh.  I shudder thinking about that.

I'm reading ACoK again, and am going through it wondering, "What did I find in this book the first time that I liked so much?"  Seriously.  

Maybe it's just this particular book, and the other ones are just better.  But on this, my second read of this book, the writing is just above average.

Anyway, I think that Jordan's style was more suited to the story he tried to tell.  Jordan focused more on how the characters fit into what is essentially the end of an age, while GRRM focuses more on character interactions to build his story.  Each style fits the story they're trying to tell.


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## Yulwei (Feb 2, 2010)

Well I got the next 4 books after the Dragon Reborn in the hopes that by reading them in one sitting whatever drop off in quality that may or may not exist won't affect me as badly as those who had to wait between books.


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## Baks (Feb 8, 2010)

Well finally finished reading The Gathering Storm this weekend.  Its a great book, Sanderson does a great job moving on the story.

I am glad that Rand that ain't emo anymore either, though I am little disappointed how many little chapters he gave to Mat and Perrin though.

What do you guys make of Min's viewing in chapter 48?


*Spoiler*: __ 



You know where she says that "Three will becoming one"

I personally think that refers to Rand using Callandor with Mat and Perrin somehow to beat the Dark One at Shayol Ghul.


----------



## martryn (Feb 8, 2010)

*Spoiler*: _Min's viewing_ 




I'm under the impression that Rand is going to channel all three power sources through Callandor (saidin, saidar, and the True Power).  I'm convinced he's going to get in a link with Logain and Egwene and ream some ass.


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## Yulwei (Feb 8, 2010)

Jordan's got a serious problem. His books have got plenty of good bits but he spends chapters and chapters on bad or uninteresting stuff and then glosses over the good stuff in a chapter or less. In Shadows Rising there's chapters dedicated to how crazy the guys think women are [a legitimate observation but we've heard it enough times] but something important and interesting like Siun being deposed get's rushed and we learn most of what happened from Min's observations. I've recently discovered Gemmel's Drenai novels I'm thinking of dropping this for that


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## Nimander (Feb 25, 2010)

martryn said:


> *Spoiler*: _Min's viewing_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had this theory...!



ten pages ago.

Catch up with the rest of us, martryn.


----------



## martryn (Feb 25, 2010)

> I had this theory...!
> 
> 
> 
> ten pages ago.



You lie.  I read page 19. You had one post and it was about Egwene and Rothfuss.


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## Nimander (Feb 25, 2010)

I was just joking about the number of pages.  But I did make that theory after reading tGS, and I remember putting it in spoilers because some certain members *coughmartryncough* hadn't read the book in its entirety yet.  

But I'm far from the only person to make that same theory, so I can't really take credit for it.  Even if I wanted to.


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## martryn (Feb 25, 2010)

It seemed pretty obvious to me when I read it.  Though I do remember someone saying something about Ishmael or whoever the head Forsaken dude is contributing the True Power, not Rand.  I don't think any of the Forsaken will turn against the Dark One.


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## Nimander (Feb 26, 2010)

That was actually me, I think, and I said that because I got the vibe from the book that Ishamael was kinda tired with the role he was playing.  If Rand could reach him in some way (which seems all the more possible after the end of tGS), I could see Ishamael turning on the Dark One.


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## KidTony (Mar 3, 2010)

haven't been here in a while. any news on TOM?


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## Nae'blis (Mar 9, 2010)

I am just trapped in my own mind. The only true release would be to put an end to the turning of the wheel. I guess the only difference would be if Rand somehow manages to break the wheel himself, creating a linear timeline instead of repeating ages of the same champions reborn.


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## Nimander (Mar 11, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> I am just trapped in my own mind. The only true release would be to put an end to the turning of the wheel. I guess the only difference would be if Rand somehow manages to break the wheel himself, creating a linear timeline instead of repeating ages of the same champions reborn.



You spoilin' Nae'blis?


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## Nae'blis (Jun 10, 2010)

After another read-through, I'm pretty sure Greandal isn't dead. I'm just wondering how much angst will be in the next book when Rand realises he balefired a couple hundred people for no reason.


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## KidTony (Jun 10, 2010)

lol it's painful to even think of re-reading WOT. Too many crappy books in the middle to do a complete read thru. 

about what you said above, i kind of got the vibe that there was not going to be any more angst from rand after the events of the last couple of chapters of TGS.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 14, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> After another read-through, I'm pretty sure Greandal isn't dead.


Why are sure?


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 14, 2010)

KidTony said:


> lol it's painful to even think of re-reading WOT. Too many crappy books in the middle to do a complete read thru.
> 
> about what you said above, i kind of got the vibe that there was not going to be any more angst from rand after the events of the last couple of chapters of TGS.


Just read Mat/Forsaken chapters for those 4 books

I hope so


Shaidar Haran said:


> Why are sure?



Aside from the obvious reasons, and based on what I consider not-so-large leaps of assumptions. Sammael specifically makes mention in Lord of Chaos/Crown of Swords (something along the lines of)" Greandal used compulsion so often like a hammer that people forget she can use the subtle kind so that even the closest inspection doesn't even find a trace...she might be the best at it that ever was". this really kind of convinced me, I mean the author makes specific mention of her not even leaving a trace behind with her compulsion, and Rand's tenuous instructions to Nyneave on how to remove it, Sammael (who should know about compulsion, more than Lews Therin simply by being in the side that used it the most and being familiar with her) should have known how to remove and detect compulsion, and even with that knowledge he said that Greandal would not leave a trace.

Rand only went by that one fact, it just seems that that fact alone is not enough to prove her death.


----------



## Noitora (Jun 14, 2010)

Almost completed the Shadow Rising.

Perrins storyline briefly had CotL in it which had my attention, but generally he is dulling me.


----------



## KidTony (Jun 14, 2010)

Shadow Rising has the best of Perrin. Besides that, there's not much else to his character aside from some moments at the end of book six.


----------



## Noitora (Jun 14, 2010)

Poor hairy bugger.

I much prefer Mats' storyline in general to be honest.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 15, 2010)

Mat is the best character in this series. Probably the only character who is not a characiture. 


Noitora said:


> Almost completed the Shadow Rising.


the next book,_The Fires of Heaven_ is pretty nice for the Rand/Mat chapters. Actually most if it is pretty decent since the annoying chartacters do not get many chapters;


KidTony said:


> Shadow Rising has the best of Perrin. Besides that, there's not much else to his character aside from some moments at the end of book six.



True, and true again. but the upcoming Perrin/Galad chapters should be promising.


----------



## KidTony (Jun 15, 2010)

yes, because they are written by Brandon Sanderson.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 5, 2010)

Awesome fact#1: Sanderson is "100% done with The Towers of Midnight".

Awesome fact #2: Book is set to drop THE day after my birthday (Nov. 2).  

Awesome fact #3: Is gonna be MAT-FREAKIN'-CAUTHON-centric (with a bit of Perrin thrown in there too, but that won't ruin my enjoyment).   

P.S.: 300,000 words


----------



## Nimander (Jul 5, 2010)

I'm cheating, I know, but this deserved it's own post.



Full view of the cover page for the American version of The Towers of Midnight (found it while 'trolling dA for Mat art for my set).


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 5, 2010)

Nimander said:


> I'm cheating, I know, but this deserved it's own post.
> 
> 
> 
> Full view of the cover page for the American version of The Towers of Midnight (found it while 'trolling dA for Mat art for my set).



*Spoiler*: __ 



Going by the cover Mat really only brings along two other people: Thom and probably Noal.
Granted, the cover may not want to give away plot points and someone else might just sneak in after them.

And Thom has Moiraine's staff?


----------



## KidTony (Jul 5, 2010)

mat-centric = full of awesome


----------



## Nae'blis (Jul 6, 2010)

another meh cover for the american version


----------



## Ishamael (Jul 6, 2010)

I really dislike these American book covers. The ebooks are much better. Every time I look at one of these covers the characters portrayed look far older then what they actually are and for the most part they feel devoid of any actual strong emotion.


----------



## KidTony (Jul 6, 2010)

uhmm...what do you guys expect after 12 awful covers?


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 7, 2010)

I still don't understand why people hate the covers so much, but to each his own, I guess.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 7, 2010)

TBH, a books' cover plays a large part in if I even pick up the book.  

Hell, the only reason I picked up TEotW was because of it's cover, back in freshman year of high school.  It looked intriguing and "cool", so I saw it abandoned on top of someone's locker, read it in the day it took me to finish it, and was hooked since.

Out of all the fantasy series covers that come to mind, TWoT and possibly the books by Lackey and Mallory are among my absolute favorites.


----------



## masamune1 (Jul 7, 2010)

British covers are much, much better. Simple, no nonsense, leaving  everything to the imagination.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 8, 2010)

Epic set is EPIC.


----------



## martryn (Jul 8, 2010)

Agreed, fucking awesome set.  Almost as good as mine.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 10, 2010)

I respectfully disagree.


----------



## martryn (Jul 10, 2010)

If Wheel of Time was made into a movie series, and the series was as epic as 13th Warrior is, then I would agree with you.  Hasn't happened yet, though.


----------



## Catatonik (Jul 11, 2010)

Yay, this news pleaseth me.

I mean, mostly I just want closure.

What I am curious about, is will Sanderson be allowed to play around again in the WoT universe with other tales, say such as a series about the Trolloc Wars? Hell, even other (carefully chosen) authors?

I have always felt that the back story and history of the setting would make for some amazing tales to spawn off. Or even a proper RPG setting system more conducive to the feel of the series, than the very lackluster d20 attempt.


----------



## Nimander (Jul 12, 2010)

I kinda agree.  As much as I was looking forward to the conclusion of the story, I was also looking forward to the "epilogue" story of Mat and the Daughter of the Nine Moons (her name escapes me right now) after Tarmon Gai'don, supposedly in what would be their re-conquest of Seandar, I'm thinking.  But unless Jordan left detailed notes about that story too, we'll never get to see it.


----------



## Nae'blis (Sep 18, 2010)

Sanderson will not be coming back to this series or characters after he finishes the next two books,

I'm vaguely considering pre-ordering the next book, or just get it on audiobook. The only difference being I can read at work but not listen to mp3 player.


----------



## Mist Beauty (Sep 19, 2010)

Did things pick up after book 0? I remember it being about Moira and Selena growing up. The book with Knife in the title was the last one I read.


----------



## KidTony (Sep 19, 2010)

i pre-ordered the audiobook. And Sanderson doesn't need to come back, 15 books is more than enough.


----------



## gawsome (Oct 14, 2010)

I literally can not wait for this series to come to an end - if only to get some god damned closure after years and years.

This was the first epic fantasy (Tolkien's universe aside) that I got into. Love the concepts and how he developed it from what was very clearly a a planned intial trilogy into a much farther ranging epic. 

Still don't know how so many things are going to tie up. There are prophecies still to be fulfilled - some blindingl obvious, others mired in doubt.

Its a great sham about RJ. I did enjoy Sanderson's effort in the last book - in some places the writing surpassed Jordan's own (though some of it will have been RJ's I suppose), in others it seemed a little stilted. Hopefully, he'll be getting intot he swing of things a bit more and there will be more RJ written passages.

Either way its out November 2nd in Britain. Same day as the next Malazan book by Esslemont. Awesome.

BTW - I agree that the cover art has been crappy - Britisih covers are a lot better.


----------



## gawsome (Oct 14, 2010)

I literally can not wait for this series to come to an end - if only to get some god damned closure after years and years.

This was the first epic fantasy (Tolkien's universe aside) that I got into. Love the concepts and how he developed it from what was very clearly a a planned intial trilogy into a much farther ranging epic. 

Still don't know how so many things are going to tie up. There are prophecies still to be fulfilled - some blindingl obvious, others mired in doubt.

Its a great sham about RJ. I did enjoy Sanderson's effort in the last book - in some places the writing surpassed Jordan's own (though some of it will have been RJ's I suppose), in others it seemed a little stilted. Hopefully, he'll be getting intot he swing of things a bit more and there will be more RJ written passages.

Either way its out November 2nd in Britain. Same day as the next Malazan book by Esslemont. Awesome.

BTW - I agree that the cover art has been crappy - Britisih covers are a lot better.


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 15, 2010)

Actually it was originally planned as six books, not a trilogy.


----------



## Damaris (Oct 15, 2010)

unpopular opinion time: i love the american covers. i'm sure from an artistic standpoint they're awful, but i can't help it.


----------



## Tyrael (Oct 15, 2010)

I kinda get that: there's something about the images that captures the spirits of the books, despite being generic and bland. Sweeping landscapes and shiny magic artifacts are hardly unrelated to the plot. I also don't feel that we should pretend that fantasy isn't fantasy, and hiding behind vague and unrevealing covers is a bit cowardly.

That said, still easily prefer the UK covers.


----------



## martryn (Oct 16, 2010)

UK covers look badass.  I was really taken aback by how cool they were in comparison to the American covers.  I was over there last fall and a lot of book covers were different in UK bookstores.  I loved buying books in London.  

Course, having said that, I like the American covers too.  Some more than others.  Eye of the World was fantastic.  I loved the newer ones.  The ones in the middle were the most MEH for me.


----------



## KidTony (Oct 16, 2010)

american covers are god awful


----------



## Nimander (Oct 26, 2010)

>forgot all about the upcoming book cause of IRL shit
>see a thread elsewhere about the book coming out Nov. 2
>is the day right after my birthday
>suddenly, this upcoming week is full of win

Seriously.  I'm thoroughly excited now.


----------



## Nae'blis (Oct 26, 2010)

seven more days. that should give me enough time to read _Knife of Dreams_ and _the Gathering Storm_ before release day.

the prologue will have Graendal alive


----------



## Damaris (Oct 26, 2010)

jflsjlfdsjfls i'm so excited
went to an awful reading last night and there was an advertisement for this
cannot wait


----------



## LifeMaker (Oct 26, 2010)

i have booked the release day off work so i can devour Towers of Midnight in one savage sitting of reading furiousity.

mega excited


----------



## DeathkillerD (Oct 26, 2010)

Seeing as how the book comes out in a week I thought I would upload the prologue for those who haven't heard/read it yet.
Link removed
 Enjoy!


----------



## Nimander (Oct 26, 2010)

Fuck.

I'm so excited I feel like I should be printing t-shirts or something.


----------



## Nae'blis (Oct 27, 2010)

November should be a good month.

Hopefully Michael Kramer bought some cough drops or something; his voice was horrible and flat for _the Gathering Storm_


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 2, 2010)

Michael Kramer didn't buy those cough drops, he doesn't even bother to pronounce his words clearly any more. Names he has pronounced numerous times in other books are pronounced differently now (and sound retarded). Galad has a different accent then his siblings (which is good since I hate Gawyn/Elaine's) but still. 

Kate Reading is still spectacular, 

guys this book is great, get it.

edit: fuck
edit: lol

I have a feeling I'm going to have a rather long but unrevealing monologue in this thread for the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Nimander (Nov 2, 2010)

Bought the book for my birthday.  Started reading it.

There's already more win in the first 86 pages than in any other ten books I've read this year.  And it's about 850-ish pages long.

*squeals like a girl*

I am gonna ENJOY this book like I haven't enjoyed a book in a good long while.


----------



## Damaris (Nov 2, 2010)

!!!!!!!!!

i can't go home until this weekend to get it  i'm so fucking excited man, i can't, i can't even


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 2, 2010)

And I can't read the book until after exams, assuming my father's finished by then.


----------



## LifeMaker (Nov 2, 2010)

just finished Towers of Midnight. it is stamped with total win throughout like a stick of blackpool rock 

without spoilers i'll just say it wins in every aspect.


----------



## KidTony (Nov 2, 2010)

i ordered the audiobook, should be here in the next couple of days.


----------



## Ishamael (Nov 2, 2010)

Oh man I totally forgot about ToM! Thankfully I have some money and can pick it up tomorrow, and luckily I have nothing to do right now besides read this.

Am I the only person who doesn't listen to the audio books  

Are they really that enjoyable?


----------



## KidTony (Nov 2, 2010)

^I love audiobooks, if i can get one over a book, i usually do. For fantasy at least.


----------



## Damaris (Nov 2, 2010)

i don't want spoilers but; is aviendha in it? significantly? i got so excited because she was on the cover of gathering storm and i ended up feeling cheated.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 2, 2010)

that was her on the cover? 

not everyone likes the audiobooks. it's more convenience then anything else. also, the audiobooks do not have the corrections made in later printings; like when Alanna bonds Rand, the audiobook still incorrectly says "Rand seized Saidar". the narrators are good for most of the series, but there are a few moments where you can tell they are still figuring out how to pronounce names.  sometimes there are subtle differences in the way they pronounce names (in the first couple of books but it disappears). I won't say it is the best audiobook I've listened to, Roy Dotrice for _a Song of Ice and Fire_ is still probably the best because he captures the tone of the series and characters very well.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Nov 2, 2010)

*sits down to read the book*  See everyone in the morning


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## Mori` (Nov 3, 2010)

Just got it today, sitting down to commence reading momentarily =)


----------



## LifeMaker (Nov 3, 2010)

Moridin said:


> Just got it today, sitting down to commence reading momentarily =)



enjoy. its certainly in my top 3  even the characters who have been less than awesome recently discover their greatness again


----------



## EvilMoogle (Nov 3, 2010)

Quite enjoying it so far.

Annoyed with myself for not finishing it last night though.  About half done, will finish tonight


----------



## Skandranan (Nov 3, 2010)

Pre-ordered it... Just got the email today that it shipped. Hopefully I'll have it this weekend.


----------



## Mori` (Nov 3, 2010)

SunlightHeartPlus said:


> enjoy. its certainly in my top 3  even the characters who have been less than awesome recently discover their greatness again



Cleared the first 100 pages or so and first impressions (no real spoiler or anything) on one character's arc in particular.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Perrin feels readable again! Certainly enjoying him more than I have in a while at least.




The start has been very promising, just need to make time to read more now!


----------



## EvilMoogle (Nov 3, 2010)

Along the same lines as above (I'm about halfway through)

*Spoiler*: _Very minor spoilers_ 




I've been really happy with Rand's reappearance.  Granted this was sort of expected after the end of 12.  He's finally getting it.

I remember reading one theory about "what is in Verin's letter to Mat" that said something to the effect of "this is called a letter, you use them to tell other people things that are going on.  Now stop reading and start writing!"


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 4, 2010)

About halfway through. I like how only two characters are incredibly annoying  instead of half the characters.


----------



## LifeMaker (Nov 4, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> About halfway through. I like how only two characters are incredibly annoying  instead of half the characters.



you're quite right, it's a definite improvement


----------



## EvilMoogle (Nov 4, 2010)

Moridin said:


> Cleared the first 100 pages or so and first impressions (no real spoiler or anything) on one character's arc in particular.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



About 2/3rds of the way through now and I have to say *THIS* to the spoiler.


*Spoiler*: _Very minor spoilers_ 




Holy shit!  I actually like Perrin again!  I'm not sure I could say that since book 3 or so.


----------



## Mori` (Nov 4, 2010)

EvilMoogle said:


> About 2/3rds of the way through now and I have to say *THIS* to the spoiler.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Very minor spoilers_
> ...



I'm into the 500s now so can reply  


*Spoiler*: _minor spoilers_ 



Perrin is definitely a massive improvement this book =)

Only character who I'm really not enthusiastic about has been Elayne, she's been alright when it's as a part of other characters stories, but Elayne's own stuff hasn't enthralled me.

I almost posted this last night, but I was pretty firmly ensconced in bed while I was reading so didn't break off, but I swear to God I kept cracking up with the way Mat was eying up the assorted women he'd bumped into. What with the whole justifying it to his married self with the idea that he was only looking at them with "insert friend here" in mind.

Still very much enjoying it, just hoping for a satisfying last 1/3 to cap it all =D


----------



## EvilMoogle (Nov 4, 2010)

Finished 


*Spoiler*: _Impressions_ 




Overall quite happy with it, I think I liked book 12 a bit better but this one was still VERY good.

Steering clear of actual spoilers I was quite happy with Rand and Perrin's bits, and reasonably so with Egwene and Mat.

One scene I expected to see I didn't, but I suppose that's for the last book to sort out.

*Spoiler*: _Minor, but actual spoiler_ 




I expected to see Rand meeting Toun in this book, though I suppose it can happen very shortly into the next book.

I also kinda figured they'd do _something_ to address the Black Tower issues.

Those both strike me as MASSIVE things to deal with before starting the last battle.


----------



## martryn (Nov 5, 2010)

I'm resisting the urge to click the spoiler tags.  I got it yesterday and am about 150 pages in.  Would be more but Fallout: New Vegas still demands my time, and when I do sit down to read I always have to stop and look up minor characters to remind myself what has happened to them.  

Liking Rand a lot so far.  Not liking Perrin as much, but I always thought that he really wasn't serving much of a purpose wandering around and not doing anything.  


*Spoiler*: _less than 150 pages in_ 



Why is it just now that anyone in Perrin's camp hasn't thought about making a gateway and recruiting a few Ashaman for the day to just port people in and out?  Seems to me that I would have wanted to do that two books ago.  And fuck the Masema explanation.




Seriously, though, did Perrin really spend fourish books walking in circles in Murandy or Lugard or whatever that fucking nation is that really isn't important?


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 5, 2010)

^ Perrin had to be kept busy while Rand/Mat were actually doing important things. What better way then to have him walking in circles? But I guess that was part of why he was a frustrating character to read about in the books following Dumai's Well (_Lord of Chaos?_): he wasn't really serving a purpose. This book does well to actually, at least attempt, make him remotely relevant to the cause of the Light.

I'm still about 1/3 of the way in.

edit: nvm 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Still halfway through but no Demandred? But his influence is definitely there.


Elayne is still the only person who either doesn't know or care that the last battle is coming


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 5, 2010)

Not a spoiler:

Aran'gar was with Egwene for a while, is there any evidence she did more than fluff pillows? Specifically compulsion?


----------



## LifeMaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> Not a spoiler:
> 
> Aran'gar was with Egwene for a while, is there any evidence she did more than fluff pillows? Specifically compulsion?



we know she was causing her headaches via the one power, but other than that, no hard evidence either way afaik


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 5, 2010)

*Spoiler*: _black tower_ 



holy          shit

I have to wonder if Zen-Rand knew about it before. The dream-spike was already being used at that time, and it is curious he would not check up on them at all if he was rallying his forces.




Also lol that the casual reader will have difficulty matching up the timelines.


----------



## Mori` (Nov 5, 2010)

Finished and I definitely enjoyed it, will probably ramble on the story a bit more tomorrow =)

(though I'd say it does almost feel as though come the end of the series we could consider this the first half of the final volume)


----------



## Nimander (Nov 6, 2010)

Just finished it.

My.

Body.  

Was.

Not.  

Ready.  

Holy fuck.


----------



## perman07 (Nov 6, 2010)

I finished it Wednesday. Read 700 pages from 1600 Tuesday until 0900 Wednesday and then completed the rest of it later that evening. Perrin kicked ass in this novel!


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 6, 2010)

In the Gathering Storm, the only really "holy shit" moment was with Semirhage and Rand channeling the true power. In this book... yeah, a shit load more scenes which were hardcore, but it still felt like only half a book.


----------



## Nimander (Nov 6, 2010)

Now that I look back on the series, I'm GLAD that Perrin's serious development was pushed back towards the end.  It seriously made the book more enjoyable, and it was kinda reminiscent of Perrin's character itself; slow and steady, yet awesome when it counts.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



The way the Perrin/Slayer fight played out in my head, it would look ridiculously badass on the big screen.  That by itself was almost enough to make me like the idea of a motion picture of the series, though I'm still mostly against it.




Rand 4.0 is fucking AWESOME.  Seriously; I can't remember ever loving his character like I do now.  His evolution is exactly what I would've wanted from him.  Mat was a bit toned down in this book, but his crowning moment of badassery made the toning down worthwhile, and what he did near the end cemented him for godly bro status.  Put in his shoes...I don't know that I would've been able to do the same thing.  

Egwene was awesome once again, furthering reminding me of why she's one of my (few) favorite female protagonists in literature.  And Sanderson choosing to STILL expand on the side characters and plotlines this late in the series worked out surprisingly well 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Lan's march to the Blight, Gawyn's turnabout, Galad's widening mindset, etc.  And I like what was revealed during Aviendha's vision.  The Seanchan are gonna turn into a serious fucking threat if Rand/someone else doesn't deal with them before Tarmon Gai'don.




I agree with Nae'blis that this did indeed feel like half a book.  But if the halves of other books were as awesome as this one, my list of favorites wouldn't be so short.  

Can't wait for the finale, whenever it's gonna come out (I suspect summer of next year most likely).  It's gonna be beyond epic.


----------



## masamune1 (Nov 6, 2010)

Nimander said:


> Can't wait for the finale, whenever it's gonna come out (I suspect summer of next year most likely).



Try March 2012.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 6, 2010)

No spoilers:

Zen-Rand is awesome.

I'm sorry, but Egwene was worse in this book. I've always hated her, true, but I also hated Perrin and he was awesome this book. fuck Egwene this round; everything she touched was horrible to read for me. Remember last book when the Seanchan channelers tried to shield her even though she had a sa'angreal and was glowing like the sun? yeah, screw that nonsense plot/character shield. No one would try to shield a person holding that much of the power, they could have thrown fireballs at her and she would be dead right now. Egwene encapsulates  everything that is wrong with the Aes'sedai of this Age, every single last trait which should be removed is in her. I won't elaborate due to spoilers.

Nyneave was awesome, she is everything that an Aes'sedai should be (and Zen-Rand). I was mostly indifferent to her until now. Favourite character after Mat and Moraine on the forces of the Light. Actualy, I hope she is the one, along with Moraine, who use Callandor with Rand.

Elayne made me want to curse and strangle babies every time she had a chapter. She needed to get raped and murdered.

And I hate Gawyn even more now. I know the good guys are going to win eventually, but do they all have to be a Mary/Gary Sue/Stu?

Aside from that (and a few other things) this book was still phenomenal. Fantastic.


----------



## perman07 (Nov 7, 2010)

Btw, is it ok to soon begin discussing shit without spoiler-tags?


Nae'blis said:


> No spoilers:
> 
> Zen-Rand is awesome.
> 
> ...


Well, there can be a justification for the shielding thing. We have seen no indications that damane have any knowledge of angreal or circles. From Alivia we've seen that they only know fighting, and that's it.

And if I recall correctly, fireballs, lighting and shit like that _were_ being sent her way, but blocking things like that is simple with a circle of 13 and a sangreal behind you.


> Egwene encapsulates  everything that is wrong with the Aes'sedai of this Age, every single last trait which should be removed is in her. I won't elaborate due to spoilers.


While Egwene has a lot of annoying things going against her (the whole White tower as an end instead of a means primarily, her cliché scepticism against Rand just because her station demands it even if she personally knows him), she is fixing the White tower and is not as arrogant as other Aes Sedai in assuming they're anything special.

The primary thing that she did that annoyed me in this book however was:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Trying to tie up Perrin in the World of Dreams with Black Ajah and Forsaken flying about. Presumably, she was going to leave him somewhere safe later, but it didn't look like that.





> Nyneave was awesome, she is everything that an Aes'sedai should be (and Zen-Rand). I was mostly indifferent to her until now. Favourite character after Mat and Moraine on the forces of the Light. Actualy, I hope she is the one, along with Moraine, who use Callandor with Rand.


Agreed.


> Elayne made me want to curse and strangle babies every time she had a chapter. She needed to get raped and murdered.


Her parts were boring this book, but I attribute that just as much to the plot. Her ter'angreal parts are kind of cool.


> And I hate Gawyn even more now. I know the good guys are going to win eventually, but do they all have to be a Mary/Gary Sue/Stu?


Well, at least at lot of his issues have been resolved now.


----------



## martryn (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm getting really confused on the timeline of events, now.  I know Perrin's stuff is happening in the past compared to the other stories in the novel, because Tam is still around with him, and he leaves to go to Tear at the end of the last book.  But how far, and does Cadsuane come and collect him in this book?  

200 pages in.  Am sitting down for a few hours of reading now, so I'll get another 100 pages or so done.  Just not a speed demon with this book like some of you guys.


----------



## KidTony (Nov 7, 2010)

haven't read the book, but c'mon nimander....stop being a fanboy. You can't seriously tell me that you excuse Perrin being non-existent and a waste of space for about 8 books now just because he was badass in one. That's stupid.


----------



## Damaris (Nov 7, 2010)

i love Nyneave, always have, glad to hear she and Aviendha are good in this book.


----------



## Mori` (Nov 7, 2010)

martryn said:


> I'm getting really confused on the timeline of events, now.  I know Perrin's stuff is happening in the past compared to the other stories in the novel, because Tam is still around with him, and he leaves to go to Tear at the end of the last book.  But how far, and does Cadsuane come and collect him in this book?
> 
> 200 pages in.  Am sitting down for a few hours of reading now, so I'll get another 100 pages or so done.  Just not a speed demon with this book like some of you guys.



The offsetting of Perrin's plotline was one of my gripes with how the book read, particularly when PoV shifts inside chapters took action elsewhere in both space and time. Without wanting to spoil anything Perrins storyline doesn't tie in with the end of TGS until over halfway through the book.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Nov 7, 2010)

Yeah, a lot of Perrin's stuff really should have been in the last book, just to make things make sense.


----------



## Nae'blis (Nov 7, 2010)

Most of you guys love GRRM; this has happened in his books with Jon and others, and will definitely happen in the next one. At least Sanderson put in a reference to what happens when through the "colours swirling", Tarna Sedai, and other things. As I said, unless you actually remember those scenes from the previous book it will  be hard to know the timeline. Good thing I read it three times.\

Possible spoilers:

But am I the only one who thinks this book was supposed to be named _Knife of Dreams_? I have a feeling Jordan wanted to include the events of _Towers of Midnight_ in that book but wanted to end it quickly due to his illness.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Nov 7, 2010)

Well, Jordan was originally planning on books 12, 13, and 14 to all be one book.

When Sanderson took over he started the outline, said "this book will have to be 2500 pages!" and initially said "2 books" eventually settling on the 3 books we know now.


----------



## perman07 (Nov 7, 2010)

KidTony said:


> haven't read the book, but c'mon nimander....stop being a fanboy. You can't seriously tell me that you excuse Perrin being non-existent and a waste of space for about 8 books now just because he was badass in one. That's stupid.


8 books? I count 5-6, in which he isn't present much in 1 or 2 of them.

He only started sucking heavily after his mission to secure Masema, which happened in Crown of Swords (book 7, and yeah, I looked this up). Hints of his suckage happened in Lord of Chaos (book 6) when Rand was kidnapped, since this was when Berelain was introduced to him and Faile.

Before that, he was decent in the first couple of books, his Two Rivers storyline was pretty good, and I guess it's a matter of taste whether or not he had started sucking properly when he was part of the rescue Rand operation.

Personally, I think it was just the whole Malden story that was against him, that storyline was just so long and boring, and everything concerning Faile and Berelain (which dominated a lot of this storyline) made it so much worse.

In this book we see part of how Perrin can be awesome under the right circumstances. Personally, I thought Mat and his story was way less interesting this book. So even though Mat is an infinitely cooler character than Perrin, the plot surrounding characters is incredibly important in portraying characters. Which points to my previous point, Malden, Faile and Berelain are more to blame than Perrin for Perrin's suckage these last books.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 7, 2010)

Perrins was only awesome in the chapters that he rescued the Two Rivers, and even that was annoying because Faile was in it. Aside from that he has been useless until now.


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## martryn (Nov 8, 2010)

I didn't mind Faile in the Two Rivers stuff, back in book 4.  No characters have yet come out as ultra annoying in this book yet, save perhaps the idiot Spanish Inquisition running around trying to kill Perrin.


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## perman07 (Nov 8, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> Perrins was only awesome in the chapters that he rescued the Two Rivers, and even that was annoying because Faile was in it. Aside from that he has been useless until now.


Can't really expect someone to be awesome often unless they're Rand or Mat. In fiction in general, sustaining awesomeness is not something which writers often manage to do, it is usually reserved for rare moments.

I guess I find him acceptable in all the non-Malden phases personally.

Egwene annoys me way more, and Elayne has a lot of boring phases (especially in this book).


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## KidTony (Nov 8, 2010)

After book four, he was useless, utterly useless.


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## perman07 (Nov 8, 2010)

If not for Perrin in book 6, Rand might have ended up with Sevanna. Though the Asha'man were way more important in saving him, Shaido might have broken through before the Ashaman could arrive if Perrin & co didn't interrupt in time.


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## KidTony (Nov 8, 2010)

You're right. He was good in Dumai's wells, but after he's been wandering the countryside for the last six books. Jordan never got that if he didn't have anything to write about a character, he should have just excluded them. Its fine if a character is absent from a book and we get their storylines later. He figured that out to late.


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## gawsome (Nov 9, 2010)

I really enjoyed this book. Partly for the fact that we are finally approaching the end (sob) and partly because I really enjoyed Sanderson's handling of the characters.

I actually got emotional, which has never happened with WoT before, with a number of passages in the book - particularly Rand and Perrin.

Perrin's storyline and character development was epic. What a man. Sanderson understands this character and feels comfortable writing it.

Its such a shame that he can't write Mat's PoV for shit. Particularly given how colourful Jordan's Mat was.

And Rand....oh Rand....impregnate me with your dragon sperm...and I'm a dude.

FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP


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## KidTony (Nov 9, 2010)

just got the audiobook


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## Nae'blis (Nov 11, 2010)

there are a few posts I want to respond to once I stop feeling lazy.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 11, 2010)

spoilers follow:

the red-veiled Aiel, I wonder where they came from. Could it be the male channelers who go to the blight? But they have black eyes so maybe they aren't Aiel. Greandals comment about fleeing to a mirror world made me think that maybe the shadow are recruiting from these worlds, that maybe that is where those particular people come from. It would make sense to do so.

Am I the only one whose skin crawled in sheer horror reading about the dreadlord factory? It's not just that the "13x13" is being implemented, but what was really terrifying was that a dreamspike was being used. The black tower houses families, and I KNOW that now the dreamspike is up they will start converting in earnest. Channelers were being converted for a while, at least since_ Knife of Dreams_, but now...

At least now I know for certain where Moridin's male channelers were coming from. From this book I came to a few tenuous conclusions: firstly that Demandred has little or nothing to do with the black tower. Moridin would not have needed to ask Demandred in the beginning of_ the Gathering Storm_ what his forces were doing if they were both involved with the black tower. Where the fuck is this guy?

Taim and the black tower in general is really curious, I hope Sanderson clears up some of the mystery or else I will think Jordan changed Taim=Demandred out of spite. Demandred must have been involved with the black tower in Dumai's Well, even though he and Mesaana were allied (and he basically shat all over her plans by rescuing Rand). At the same time I think Taim is involved with Moridin since before Rand killed Rahvin, when Moridin was still Ishamael. I don't know, maybe someone else can make sense of this whole mess for me. It's too much of a stretch/impossible to even suggest Moridin is Taim. Moridin is pretty much rallying the shadow single-handedly. Everything in this book where the shadow doesn't screw up has been Moridin. It would have been better to let Greandal die from that balefire, her character went from "joke" to facepalm-worthy. What a stupid overly complicated plan. Mesaana may have even been worse, so much so that I don't think Jordan actually had a solid idea as to what her purpose was supposed to be so he just killed her offhand. 

Also, none of the Borderland leaders are Demandred. I would think that even he would show some minor reaction when Rand insinuated he could channel the true power.

  Verin

thinly disguised Mjollnir was thinly disguised.


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## LifeMaker (Nov 11, 2010)

well, spoilers ahoy, since you posted some 

The red-veiled aeil... well, if they aren't the male channellers then Sharan's is a talked about possibility, possibly aping the aiel, as we know they've had contact. that's also a possible left-field locale for Demandred to be at.

I know what you mean about Graendal. she really isn't very smart. Messana can be forgiven as apparently they had a decent trap set up but couldn't get there due to the errant dreamspike, so she _ might _ have won i guess 

and yeah, the Black Tower is creepy. shame for Tarna, i thought she was a decent character for an Aes Sedai, especially a Red, but hey, no omlettes without eggs exploding eh?


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## Mori` (Nov 11, 2010)

Demandred = Murandy, Shara, or the isle of Madmen. 

Murandy because we always get mentions of things there, but never really see anything, nor do they commit to anything. It'd be a pretty central base of power despite being one of the smaller nations.

Shara since it's arguably the biggest non-committed power, and given the lack of information that gets out of their it could be quite feasible for Demandred to have claimed powers and prepared for war in secret.

The isle of Madmen would be way out of left field since we know virtually nothing about it, but they could make an interesting addition to the DO's forces. It'd also remind me a bit of the way the Southron's sided with Sauron and were a part of his army in LotR, and I wouldn't be that surprised if RJ had planned that kind of little nod to Tolkeins work.


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## Nimander (Nov 11, 2010)

Yeah, I speculated a while back that Demandred set up shop in Shara ever since hearing that he had an army of his own.  I'm just waiting for him to drop that hammer on Rand and company in the next book.  It'll be...interesting to see how they deal with it.


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## perman07 (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm not really satisfied with any of the 3 presented theories concerning Demandred (though I agree 1 of them is in overwhelming likelihood true).

- Murandy seems too small to be the immense army Demandred's been working on. It wouldn't fit the hype.
- Shara would fit the hype, but has only been mentioned briefly a few times and we really know little about it, and the time left to bring Shara the relevance such an important plot element deserves is very little.
- Isle of madmen for the same reasons as Shara, only stronger. This one is the least likely in my book.

Concerning Taim, there are a couple of things that are fishy, and several of these things point to a connection with Moridin/Ishmael.
- He's been associated with the colors red and black multiple times, which Moridin/Ishmael have also been associated with. As in their clothing and interiors where they live.
- Be'lal and Sammael both have sigils with gauntleted fists clutching lightning. Be'lal has a silver gauntlet, Sammael has a steel gauntlet. Taim has a similar sigil into his palace in the Black tower, only it is a gold gauntlet, indicating he may be above them (as Moridin would be).
- Taim has been described similarly to how Moridin and Rand have been described concerning dark auras, indicating he may have used the True Power (something only Moridin, Grandael and Rand have done up to this point).
- He doesn't appear to have any traces of insanity.
- He knows lots of things he shouldn't know, like how to test for male channeling.
- He used the "Lord of Chaos" phrase, which we have only heard being uttered from other Forsaken.

It's possible he's a new Forsaken or something similar, but the connections to Moridin are very suspicious, and in most of the Black Tower scenes of the latest books, he's never present on the grounds. Quite frankly, we don't know for sure he's hanging out at the Black Tower most of the times for a fact. His darkfriend underlings would be able to cover for him.

I personally think Moridin either deals directly with Taim most of the time, or is Taim.


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## LifeMaker (Nov 11, 2010)

yeah i would agree that Taim is definitey at the very least a favoured minion if Ishy, there's just too much evidence to ignore


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## Mori` (Nov 12, 2010)

Definitely don't think Moridin is Taim, but there's certainly a connection there between them. I did read a theory that Demmy could be that new Asha'man Kash (the one with the abnormal power who randomly popped up), which might make sense if he'd been involved with BT dealings and emerges when the conversions begin. There were certainly a lot of Demandred hints when Taim first emerged as an ally for Rand.

I'm not sure whether I like or dislike how many topics there are that are still open for wild speculation. On the one hand it's fun to guess and puzzle things out, on the other I worry that some answers may fall flat and dampen the final book. Still, at least they finally confirmed who killed Asmo xD


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## Nae'blis (Nov 12, 2010)

I like how this book has a steady pacing with no lulls. _the Gathering Storm_, while good, had some mind-numbingly boring parts which I will skip when I read it again. I don't see myself really skipping anything in_ Towers of Midnight_ when I revisit it.


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## perman07 (Nov 12, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> I like how this book has a steady pacing with no lulls. _the Gathering Storm_, while good, had some mind-numbingly boring parts which I will skip when I read it again. I don't see myself really skipping anything in_ Towers of Midnight_ when I revisit it.


Elayne....


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## Nae'blis (Nov 12, 2010)

^ I had blocked it out of my mind.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 20, 2010)

Did anyone pick up on the budding romance between Thom and Moraine in the _Eye of the World_? The only time I actually picked up on anything even remotely approaching that possibility was when she made that comment "I know the face of the person I will marry" (or something to that effect). I'm with Mat on this one, it was not obvious at all.


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## perman07 (Nov 21, 2010)

^Well, I only picked up on it on my re-read of the series (after which it was clear Thom was pretty adamant on saving her). Thom often mentions she is a fine woman, but Aes Sedai, indicating a conflict in his mind. Also in Tear, when Thom is performing the Game of Houses and she is confronting him about it, there is some subtle flirtation going on.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 27, 2010)

I love how Rand (when he met Egwene) said "I'm going to need you, all of you..." when talking about breaking the seals and fighting the Dark One. I think that eliminates her as the possible other woman who helps him use Callandor. If it is not Moraine and Nyneave/Aviendha I'll be pissed.


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## Nae'blis (Nov 27, 2010)

Is it just me or is the timeline completely fucked? Okay so I'm basing this mostly on the "swirling colours" from Rand (I forgot what Perrin saw in _Towers of Midnight_). Rand saw Perrin speaking with Galad, which may have been before or after they joined forces, but that timeline is clearly/significantly behind Rand and Egwene. Rand saw Perrin a couple of days after Rand balefired Graendal's fortress, which itself is a couple of days before he went Zen, so it has to be before Perrin/Galad joined forces. Egwene only nullified Mesaana after Rand went Zen (after Tam), and she only did that when Perrin got the dream spike. *B*ut he only got the dream spike during the fight with the trollocks which was before Tam al'Thor left the camp to visit Rand.

I need to read this book again to see if Tam left before or after the dream spike, but it doesn't seem to matter since Perrin's storyline catches up with Egwene in this book yet it doesn't make sense with Rand going to Dragon Mount. Actually a few things in this book (for me) seem to go against what we learned in other books. Like wtf since when does access to the true power allow them to read weaves when Moridin said those weaves were invisible to all but the wielder? 


Not that it matters, but I think Graendal killed Asmodean on her own initiative, without orders.


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## The Pink Ninja (Nov 30, 2010)

The Pattern is a Dress

I know this sounds a little out there but think about it. Ever wonder why these door stoppers are filled with overly elaborate descriptions of clothing and dresses worn by the characters? They fit in with the constant motif of weaving. It's actually RJ cluing the audience in on what Wheel of Time is actually making: a Cosmic Dress. The Dark One is being forced to wear different dresses made by the Creator. But the Dark One hates these dresses and is trying to implement his own design or just wants to go nude.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 1, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> The Pattern is a Dress
> 
> I know this sounds a little out there but think about it. Ever wonder why these door stoppers are filled with overly elaborate descriptions of clothing and dresses worn by the characters? They fit in with the constant motif of weaving. It's actually RJ cluing the audience in on what Wheel of Time is actually making: a Cosmic Dress. The Dark One is being forced to wear different dresses made by the Creator. But the Dark One hates these dresses and is trying to implement his own design or just wants to go nude.


Mind = Blown Unwoven


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## Velocity (Dec 6, 2010)

*walks in blindly with hands over eyes*

I caved in and just bought the first three books for ?15 on Amazon. They'll be here between the 10th and 13th, 'though I told my parents they can put them away 'til Christmas.


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## perman07 (Dec 10, 2010)

Lyra said:


> *walks in blindly with hands over eyes*
> 
> I caved in and just bought the first three books for ?15 on Amazon. They'll be here between the 10th and 13th, 'though I told my parents they can put them away 'til Christmas.


Be prepared for a couple of months of time-consuming obsession if you're anything like me.


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## Cyphon (Dec 15, 2010)

First time posting here but I caught up in the series about a month back.

1. Is it just me or does it feel like this last book isn't going to be enough to cover something so large scale? I feel like there is too much stuff but I may just be over thinking it. 

2. Is anyone else disappointed we haven't gotten much insight into the Black Tower? I was really hoping for more scenes of the goings on there and some interaction between Logain and Taim.


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## Mori` (Dec 15, 2010)

1) It's going to be tight, I'd expect a massive volume. And to think that RJ had wanted the series to have finished inside 12 books!

2) Yeah, I had hoped that would be addressed more in ToM because I don't want it to feel crammed into the last book


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 15, 2010)

Moridin said:


> 1) It's going to be tight, I'd expect a massive volume. And to think that RJ had wanted the series to have finished inside 12 books!



RJ said a number of times "Book 12 would be the last even if it has to be 2500 pages."

When Sanderson took over he basically said "hey this is going to be 2500 pages, mind if I break it up into twothree books?"


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## perman07 (Dec 15, 2010)

Personally, I think the whole Black Tower situation _can_ be resolved in 1 book. What annoys me is more how Sanderson/Jordan wrote this as if Rand doesn't care as much about the BT as his other priorities when this should have been his main priority from the moment Logain visited him. Obviously, there is something about Rand and the Black Tower which is being hidden this book:
- We didn't get a single chapter from Rand's perspective (EDIT: I guess the epilogue had Rand's dream sequence, but there are no real revelations).
- After he visited the White tower, he had a month in which to do things before he met up with everyone on the Fields of Maredo.
- During that month he:
1) Solved shit in Tear (including rooting up Darkfriends, handling hos toh with Aiel and apologizing to his dad) in a single day.
2) Fixed the capital of Arad Domane in a single day.
3) Saved Rotel Ituralde in a single day.
4) Met the Borderlander army and solved that in a single day.

Flash forward to the end of the book, a month has gone by, and to our knowledge, nothing has been done about the Black Tower.
We heard his reaction when he got told Travelling into the Black Tower wasn't possible, which was something like "seems things are worse than I thought". Seeing as how he has his Lews Therin knowledge now, we can suppose he knows about Dreamspikes.

I don't get his priorities. What he told Asha'man was that he had more important things to do and not enough time. Meanwhile, he is letting the most powerful resource he has at hand get controlled by the Forsaken. This could have been more skillfully handled by him saying something like "going to an enemy controlled area where there is a Dreamspike is suicidal unless we do this properly". Instead, we get the impression like he cares more about all sorts of other shit which should be irrelevant in comparison.

It's possible Jordan/Sanderson are just hiding something vital to explain why he hasn't done anything, cause at the moment, Rand appears like a moron IMO.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 15, 2010)

that pretty much sums it all up.

I still can't believe he sent that asha'man to see what is going on when he should know fully well. But I have a feeling that is being set up so he meets Logain on his way to the black tower.


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## Cyphon (Dec 15, 2010)

And am I mistaken or doesn't Rand already know Taim is a Darkfriend? 

I could have swore at one point someone said it to his face......Or in a roundabout way. 

I may have misread it, but if he knew the leader of the whole camp was dark, it should have definitely been top priority. I am hoping for some good stuff from Logain too.


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## perman07 (Dec 15, 2010)

Logain said it when he found Rand when Rand was hiding in that mansion in Tear post-Saidin cleansing, Rand appeared to believe it. Did I say anything that indicated I thought he didn't know?


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## Cyphon (Dec 15, 2010)

perman07 said:


> Logain said it when he found Rand when Rand was hiding in that mansion in Tear post-Saidin cleansing, Rand appeared to believe it. Did I say anything that indicated I thought he didn't know?



No I was just curious. 

I thought when they attacked Rand and he had encountered one of them they said or he envisioned them saying something like "The Mhael sent us to do this". 


So I was just questioning if he knew something so specific why it hadn't been even more of an issue as opposed to if he just thought there were "regular" issues going on there. 

You answered the questions I had pretty well anyway.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 18, 2010)

I finished the book! :WOW





Cyphon said:


> And am I mistaken or doesn't Rand already know Taim is a Darkfriend?
> 
> I could have swore at one point someone said it to his face......Or in a roundabout way.


I believe there was mention in Far Madding when the Asha'man and Padan Fain attack Rand.

I'm kind of curious as to what exactly Taim is doing to the Asha'man and Aes Sedai. The forced into service of the Shadow or Compulsion?


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## Nae'blis (Dec 18, 2010)

^ 13 dreadlords channeling through 13 myrddraal. That was the other dreamspike Moridin mentioned to Graendal. I had chills reading that scene and nightmares afterwards.

Joiya and Amico (black ajah prisoners in the stone of tear who were killed by Slayer) mention forcibly turning people to the shadow in _the Shadow Rising_, and Sanderson mentioned last year that Robert Jordan always planned to use that in the later novels.

Three books ago I always wondered where Moridin got his male channelers that he used as servants.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 19, 2010)

That's what I figures; I just wasn't sure if it was ever stated by a character.

So if Mat is Odin (ravens, eye) and Perrin is Thor (hammer), then who is Rand again?


*Spoiler*: __ 



And who else is going to receive Nynaeve's Healing for madness?


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## Nae'blis (Dec 19, 2010)

It wasn't stated right out; no mention of forcibly turning people to the shadow has happened since that interrogation scene in _the Shadow Rising_.

Rand would be Tyr... and Jesus.


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## Kain Highwind (Dec 19, 2010)

Yeah, Rand is basically Jesus...and quite a few other fictional characters.  I looked on the his wiki profile and he's got a sizable number of similarities to other characters.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 19, 2010)

Rand is Tyr, he lost his hand to cage the great wolf.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 19, 2010)

And why doesn't anyone ever bother opening Verin's letters?  Mat refuses, and Rand hasn't shown any indication of having opened his.

I'm still hoping to see just how far her dominoes were stacked.


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## Cyphon (Dec 21, 2010)

That Verin twist through me off. For some reason I never thought of the obvious idea of sending an agent to the dark side. Of course she wasn't exactly sent.


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## perman07 (Dec 21, 2010)

Shaidar Haran said:


> And why doesn't anyone ever bother opening Verin's letters?  Mat refuses, and Rand hasn't shown any indication of having opened his.


Mat's reasoning was obvious, and Verin underestimated his self-control. Concerning Rand, I think he did in fact open the letter. When he came to Tear, it seemed like he had learned of the existence of the king of Arad Doman, and the confirmation of darkfriends among his ranks in Tear. We don't know for a fact that he _didn't_ open Verin's letter. We didn't have 1 decent Rand perspective in the book, I suspect Verin's letters to various people is a plot thread that is far from done, and additional information she passed along to Rand except for Darkfriends and the king of Arad Doman may have been revealed if the letter itself was revealed in it's entirety.


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## LifeMaker (Dec 21, 2010)

Yes, i do believe that Rand, at the least has opened Verin's letter. His sudden bursts of knowledge seem like the sort of info Verin had available and may have deemed neccesary


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## Nae'blis (Dec 22, 2010)

By the time Mat reaches Caemlyn (assuming he goes the previous route down the Arinelle to Whitebridge) the city would already have been sacked or saved


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## Cyphon (Dec 22, 2010)

So what is the general consensus from everyone on the series overall?

Its obvious you all like it but are you of the group who say the middle books kind of dragged on? For me I honestly cant remember really feeling like that when reading them but a lot of people bring it up if I ask them about the books. 

I thought it all paced pretty well for the most part and actually I still don't think this last book will be enough to tie everything up. I think most of the different groups and point of views were pretty interesting and I certainly wouldn't have minded more insight into some of them at times.

And my last question, has anyone read the prequel book of the series? If so, how was it?


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## LifeMaker (Dec 22, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> So what is the general consensus from everyone on the series overall?
> 
> Its obvious you all like it but are you of the group who say the middle books kind of dragged on? For me I honestly cant remember really feeling like that when reading them but a lot of people bring it up if I ask them about the books.
> 
> ...



from book 1 to lord of Chaos book 6 was ultimate godliness.... book 7 was okay, 8,9 were kinda slow and dragged a lot, 10 was redeemed by the ending, 11 was back to form, 12 and 13 have been awesome 

so overall a definite win

as for the prequel New Spring, it's solid. was nice to get some info on the Aes Sedai test, although book 13 makes that less important. overall it was worth a read, but not as good as main sequence


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## Cyphon (Dec 22, 2010)

Okay good. I am probably going to pick up New Spring.


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## LifeMaker (Dec 22, 2010)

yeah it's worth picking up. It fills in a bit of the backstory around Siuan, Moiraine and Lan nicely, and has a few interesting tidbits.

Funniliy enough i have the old shortened version too in Legends


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 22, 2010)

Cyphon said:


> I thought it all paced pretty well for the most part and actually I still *don't think this last book will be enough to tie everything up*.


Jordan's original plan was to leave several loose ends, allowing for tie-in books. The point Sanderson took over writing was a little late in the process to try rewriting it so the loose ends could be tied up.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 23, 2010)

The problem is you  never know what is important. So much mystery around Asmodean, but the identity of his killer was as important as a fart or the colour of silks.

After thinking a bit about the Red Veils, I believe it may be possible that Rands conclusion to the Aeilfinn answer of "the north and the east must be as one; the west and the south must be as one; the two must be as one; if you would live, you must die" is wrong. "the two must be as one" is Lews Therin and himself. But the "north and east" makes more sense as the Blight and Shara, and the "west and south" as Seanchan and the Wetlands including Tremalking (and although it doesn't make sense the Land of Madmen). The one time Shara was mentioned it was said that they wear veils all the time.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 23, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> After thinking a bit about the Red Veils, I believe it may be possible that Rands conclusion to the Aeilfinn answer of "the north and the east must be as one; the west and the south must be as one; the two must be as one; if you would live, you must die" is wrong. "the two must be as one" is Lews Therin and himself. But the "north and east" makes more sense as the Blight and Shara, and the "west and south" as Seanchan and the Wetlands including Tremalking (and although it doesn't make sense the Land of Madmen). The one time Shara was mentioned it was said that they wear veils all the time.


The red-veiled men being Sharans makes a lot of sense, especially if Demandred is over there.


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## LifeMaker (Dec 23, 2010)

Yeah there's been a lot of speculation of Shara ever since Graendal brought over the rulers and Rhuarch mentioned them a few times. I could live with the Red-Veils being Sharan's, but the consensus on whether that would be a good plot device or not is somewhat mixed over at the Dragonmount forums


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## Nae'blis (Dec 27, 2010)

LifeMaker said:


> Yes, i do believe that Rand, at the least has opened Verin's letter. His sudden bursts of knowledge seem like the sort of info Verin had available and may have deemed neccesary


Zen Rand is omniscient. iirc correctly he knew Egwene was the  Amerlyn Seat as he walked down from Dragon Mount without having received word of the Tower being reconsolidated. And a few other things besides which couldn't possibly have been in whatever letter was left for him.


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## LifeMaker (Dec 28, 2010)

Nae'blis said:


> Zen Rand is omniscient. iirc correctly he knew Egwene was the  Amerlyn Seat as he walked down from Dragon Mount without having received word of the Tower being reconsolidated. And a few other things besides which couldn't possibly have been in whatever letter was left for him.



i think omniscient may be a touch more than the truth  Though i'll admit Certainly he seems more in tune with things, perhaps he's getting interpretation from Tel'aran'rhoid or something... i daresay next book will most likely clarify


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## Cyphon (Dec 30, 2010)

LifeMaker said:


> yeah it's worth picking up. It fills in a bit of the backstory around Siuan, Moiraine and Lan nicely, and has a few interesting tidbits.



Just finished it.

Overall I thought it was pretty good, if short. I would have liked more of Lan and Bukama though. 

My only issue was I felt too much of a meshing of personality with Moraine. At times I felt like I was reading about Egwene again instead of Moraine. Its not a big issue since you would expect most up and coming Accepted to be pretty similar. 

I thought it could have been a bit longer as well. I wanted to see the transition Siuan had from where she was at to her gathered respect and being raised to Amyrlin. It could have been brief, but I still wanted a little glimpse.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 1, 2011)

He probably just wanted to focus on what was important. But also some minor things like how the Aiel have always somewhat respected Aan'allein; how he came to become a warder in spite of hating the AS for leaving Malkier to their fate, and setting up the stage for his current journey through the Borderlands.  without Moraine the Light would have been screwed over ages ago. She is as much a vehicle of prophecy as Gitara, but with more dirt on her hands.

And lol, I wonder if Perrin's thought of "we may never know why Annoura (I think that was her name) was meeting with the prophet" was just a way of telling readers that some things will never be revealed.

Did anyone else find it curious  how Graendal was able to see the weaves of the gateway Moridin made with the true power? Moridin said that it was invisible to all except the wielder.


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## Nimander (Jan 26, 2011)

I was at the bookstore today, just browsing the shelves like I'm prone to do, when I saw the New Spring graphic novel.  

I absolutely loved it.

It's very abbreviated compared to the book (which makes sense, of course) but it was a thorough pleasure just seeing the WoT world illustrated alongside the story.  There was one page of Tar Valon that just blew me away, and another of one of the bridges leading away from Tar Valon that did the same.  

The art throughout the book was amazing (I like the art in the last chapter slightly less than the ones before it, but it didn't detract from the story in the least bit for me), and seeing so many things, like the armor of the Malkieri (very samurai-like), Lan owning the shit out of six men single-handedly and even the weaves of the Aes-Sedai just gave me fangasm after fangasm.  

I think it would be the absolute best thing if they could do it with the rest of the series.  It's unfortunately very unlikely, as the graphic novel was closely supervised by Jordan before his passing, and it wouldn't be the same without his attention to detail and preferences I think.  But still: a series of graphic novels spanning the series would go over with me SO much better than any movie ever could, and I would probably buy the entire series.

P.S.

I feel like an absolute geek saying this, and it's really not my style, but Moiraine and Siuan are fucking HOT in this book.  Like, seriously.  A good 75% of the Aes Sedai we see in this novel are definitely in bangable territory.  

Alright.  I'm done.  If you haven't read it already, I definitely recommend it.  I just sat down in the bookstore and spent an hour with it (it was $24.99, so I sure as hell wasn't buying it tonight).  

If anyone else reads it, or has read it, let me know what you think.


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## LifeMaker (Jan 26, 2011)

So it's that good eh?

I'll have to see if i can get hold of it


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## Nimander (Jan 26, 2011)

Do it.


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## Nimander (Jan 26, 2011)

Snow Miser said:


> The red-veiled men being Sharans makes a lot of sense, especially if Demandred is over there.



If my long-standing theory that Demandred has indeed been taking over Shara proves to be correct, I'll shit a brick of pure joy and vindication.


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## The-Ice (Jan 27, 2011)

I just finished reading ' lord of chaos ' which is my fav. out of the 6 i'v read .
Something tells me that the story will go downhill from here .. 7th 8th 9- etc worth buying ? 
i'm hooked but i have so many things to do lately ..  I want to know if they'r worth the money and time to read through them all . Opinions are appreciated


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## LifeMaker (Jan 27, 2011)

The-Ice said:


> I just finished reading ' lord of chaos ' which is my fav. out of the 6 i'v read .
> Something tells me that the story will go downhill from here .. 7th 8th 9- etc worth buying ?
> i'm hooked but i have so many things to do lately ..  I want to know if they'r worth the money and time to read through them all . Opinions are appreciated



It does drop in quality yes, from 7 until the end of ten, but it's still a good read, and there's the payoff of the big pickup from 11-13 to look forwards too where it's back on top form. don't be discouraged i reccomend plowing on through. After all, don't you want to know what happens?


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## The-Ice (Jan 27, 2011)

of course i want to know what happens next but if the story realy deteriorates from here then i'm willing to stop reading for a few weeks untill things have calmed down  ( with pain in my heart ofcourse )


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## LifeMaker (Jan 28, 2011)

The-Ice said:


> of course i want to know what happens next but if the story realy deteriorates from here then i'm willing to stop reading for a few weeks untill things have calmed down  ( with pain in my heart ofcourse )



I wouldn't say it really deteriorates, it just becomes quite slow  7 8 and 9 would have been better as one and a half books condensed really


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## perman07 (Jan 28, 2011)

LifeMaker said:


> I wouldn't say it really deteriorates, it just becomes quite slow  7 8 and 9 would have been better as one and a half books condensed really


Yeah, and books 7, 8 and 9 are decent really, they're just not as good as the first 6 (which most books really aren't, if you set that high a standard, what are you gonna read?). 10 is the only truly bad book in the series IMO (
*Spoiler*: __ 



The one that happens concurrently with the taint being cleansed


).

Anyways, I had no doubt in my mind I wanted to read the rest of them when the story as a whole is so good. Dropping the series after book 6 is blasphemy in my book.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 29, 2011)

I don't understand skipping a few books in a series. I can never stop a book or series after starting. Those books may be considered chuunin lvl but a lot still happens in them, including character development. Just read everything, but when you reread it skip the Elayne chapters.


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## Ishamael (Jan 29, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> I don't understand skipping a few books in a series. I can never stop a book or series after starting. Those books may be considered chuunin lvl but a lot still happens in them, including character development. Just read everything, but when you reread it skip the Elayne chapters.


And Egwene chapters. At least after she is raised Amyrlin.

Out of curiosity what is everyone's view of her post ToM? I never thought it was possible but I loathe her even more. Her arrogance and pigheadedness have only managed to increase and I feel like chucking my back at a wall at every single one of her povs as she always manages to sound foolish. Being made damane for the rest of her life would be to kind.

Anyways books 7,8,9 and 10 aren't as bad as most make them out to be. While the plot may be slow it still the same WoT we all love. And save for PoDs they each contain a healthy dose of Mat.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 29, 2011)

Honestly, I don't hate her more (I doubt that is possible) but she is as arrogant in Towers of Midnight as she was in the previous books. It's not even just her arrogance; she is condescending to Rand/Perrin and a complete bitch. I skip her chapters when rereading Gathering Storm and Towers (except for the chapter when Rand appears). 

The author seems to love her and thinks her cunt character is endearing. I didn't like her after she stopped liking Rand because he could channel (Min and Elayne had no problems when they found out), and absolutely hated her in the Great Hunt when Rand was dying and she stood there like a tool looking at Min when she should have been calling Nyneave. She is completely superficial, she only liked Rand because he was tall and good looking. Same with Galad and Gawyn.

And yes, the Mat chapters are godwin in those books. I personally love reading the chapters of his after Elayne leaves.


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## LifeMaker (Jan 30, 2011)

Mat is always God and Win in later books, and he just gets more god and more win


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## Nae'blis (Jan 30, 2011)

... Rand still doesn't know about the wolves, he is the ONLY one . After Rands conversation with Egwene and his comment on "you have done your part", does anyone else think that when he gained the memories of his previous infinite lives he knew what each person (Mat/Perrin/Egg/etc.) was destined to be in that Age? Like he already knew Perrin is linked to the wolves and everything else.


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## Cyphon (Jan 30, 2011)

He probably knows Perrin is linked. Even before that "infinite lives" he probably had an idea. Rand was never stupid, just crazy. 

Also I am in agreement about Mat, his chapters are awesome. 

I will say with Egwene that I liked her parts when she was prisoner in the tower.


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## perman07 (Jan 31, 2011)

I actually thought Mat was less awesome in Towers of Midnight. He's generally been less cool since Sanderson took over, but some of that might have come across even with Jordan writing. The thing is, he used to have more of a pessimistic, witty observer of crazyness vibe before, but now he seems more like a gag character and some of the humor in the 2 latest books feel more forced than it used to.

It might be his actual character development, growing comfortable with his role in the pattern as a general, but it feels to me like Sanderson has managed to capture Mat less than he has with other characters.

Perrin was the main man in Towers of Midnight, he beat both Rand and Mat in having cool parts IMO. The Ghenjei tower part was not as cool as I hoped it would be.


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## Cyphon (Jan 31, 2011)

perman07 said:


> Perrin was the main man in Towers of Midnight, he beat both Rand and Mat in having cool parts IMO. The Ghenjei tower part was not as cool as I hoped it would be.



I can mostly agree with this.

I just wish Perrin was more.....Tough I guess.

He is a bearded man with an axe and he can be kind of a pussy sometimes. I want him chopping heads off and biting peoples throats out, not worry about sleeping on the couch because Faile might be mad.


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## The-Ice (Jan 31, 2011)

, i couldn't resist buying book 7 and 8 , even though i said that i wouldn't for a while . they are just to addictive


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 31, 2011)

I have been reading this series for many years now, and I have found it to be one of the most epic fantasy series that I have ever read. I thoroughly enjoy its vast and well-developed world, varied peoples and cultures, and well-written story, with many twists and surprises. I have read every book thus far, and am excited, but also rather sad, that the series will soon be ending, although I can say more about that subject later.

Before I comment about the newest book, _Towers of Midnight,_ I wish to make several statements and ask several questions about the series in general.

First, why is there such a pervasive and irrational (in my mind) division between men and women in this series? The concepts of _Saidar_ and _Saidin_ are very interesting and not problematic to me, but why is it that men and women seem to treat each other as being foreign and unknowable? Women often believe that men are stubborn and reckless, while men often believe that women are conniving and manipulative. Being very egalitarian, I am somewhat annoyed by this idea.

Second, it is good that the heroes have become far more powerful since the beginning of the series, but is anyone else displeased that the Forsaken, the greatest leaders of the Dark One's forces, seem to be far less threatening, and have been defeated more easily, in recent books? I found the battles against Semirhage and Mesaana to be exciting, but also slightly anticlimactic, and then Aran'gar and Graendal were killed in a very undramatic fashion (Graendal's fate is uncertain, but being that Shaidar Haran was displeased with her, it is not likely that she will be in any condition to threaten the heroes). At this point, only Moridin, Demandred, Moghedien, and Cyndane (formerly Lanfear) are left among the Forsaken, so I hope that they are very impressive during _Tarmon Gaidon._

I also especially dislike how the Seanchan are being portrayed as a much greater threat than the Forsake recently, since they are opposed to the Dark One as much as the people of the other nations, except that they also wish to subjugate the other nations and practice a system of slavery that I find to be wholly abominable.

As for _Towers of Midnight,_ I found the book to be very exciting and gripping; I read it entirely in only several days, and was always eager to learn what happened next. I was particularly pleased by the focus on Mat and Perrin, as the previous book focused on Rand, and the developments that they underwent. I especially liked how Perrin and Galad joined forces and battled the Trollocs, which was a very awesome scene, and Perrin's new hammer, _Mah'alleinir,_ was very impressive. Mat losing his eye was very unfortunate, but the fact that he rescued Moiraine was worth that price, in my mind. I am worried by the fact that the Seanchan now have _Damane_ who can create gateways, so I hope that the people of the continent (does the continent even have a name?) can deal with them, and I also found it to be very unintelligent of Mat to not have opened Verin's letter, considering that it contained extremely important information. He may have doomed all of Caemlyn by not becoming aware of the danger that the city was in, so I hope that it can survive the Trolloc assault that it was experiencing at the end of the book.

I still have much more to say about the series, but I wish to spread my comments over several posts, to make it easier for other users to read them, so I shall end my post now.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 31, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> but why is it that men and women seem to treat each other as being foreign and unknowable? Women often believe that men are stubborn and reckless, while men often believe that women are conniving and manipulative.


It's mostly a running joke, but generally it plays on the stereotypical views of the opposite sexes.  And bias POV from the characters "oh if Mat/Rand/Perrin/Elena/Egwene/etc only did the sensible thing then we'd agree and move on!"




DemonDragonJ said:


> Second, it is good that the heroes have become far more powerful since the beginning of the series, but is anyone else displeased that the Forsaken, the greatest leaders of the Dark One's forces, seem to be far less threatening, and have been defeated more easily, in recent books?



It's part of the general progression.  In book 1 Trollocs were scary beasts that the heroes hid from when possible and fought only in emergencies (given that they were mostly untrained children at the time).  Rand's battle with the Trolloc at the start of Book 1 would have been the stuff of legends in his hometown were it not for other things going on.  Myrddraal were almost untouchable (run or find a Warden (or Thom)!).  And the Forsaken were the scary nightmare stories that humans couldn't hope to match.

By Book 4 Trollocs were mostly fodder, the heroes could match Myddraal more-or-less and the weaker Forsaken were at least approchable.

Book 6 or so more or less has moved on from Myddraal (save Shadar Haaran), and we understand more about the Forsaken, that they're not untouchable superbeings but rather just very powerful very old humans.

In the last books Rand (and co) are readying themselves to fight the strongest Forsaken, and that strength is measured more accurately in craftiness and cunning tactics than it is in raw power.  Since it's the former that will actually win wars more often than the latter.

Even the non-magical characters are in positions where they will be leading battle-hardened armies to fight other armies of various dark-aligned forces in the last battle.  Individuals, no matter how powerful, are not as relevant threats anymore.  They've been consistent from the start that even the most powerful Aes Sedai can be taken down by a single arrow if she were taken unaware.


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm wondering whether I should read this or ASoFaI series first. Maybe you guys can help me decide.


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## masamune1 (Jan 31, 2011)

You'd probably finish _Wheel of Time_ first, lets put it that way.


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## Cyphon (Jan 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm wondering whether I should read this or ASoFaI series first. Maybe you guys can help me decide.



With _Wheel of Time_ you have the author dead before he finished leaving his work for someone else. 

With _A Song of Ice and Fire_ you have an author who is *going* to die before he finishes and may not leave his work to someone else. 

I would go with _Wheel Of Time_.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 31, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> They've been consistent from the start that even the most powerful Aes Sedai can be taken down by a single arrow if she were taken unaware.


Have you even seen the television series _Dead Like Me_? The main character gets killed by a toilet seat from a space station. The Forsaken remind me a lot of that scene in where she just stands looking at the ball of fire falling towards her head.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm wondering whether I should read this or ASoFaI series first. Maybe you guys can help me decide.



I suggest that you read both series, as they are, in my mind, two of the most epic fantasy series written in the past several decades.



Cyphon said:


> With _A Song of Ice and Fire_ you have an author who is *going* to die before he finishes and may not leave his work to someone else.



Do not be so pessimistic, Cyphon; I am certain that George R.R. Martin will finish the next book soon, and while I am finding the wait to be frustrating, he does have a life outside of his writing, so I suggest that the fans not try to make him rush to finish the next book.


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## Cyphon (Jan 31, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Do not be so pessimistic, Cyphon; I am certain that George R.R. Martin will finish the next book soon, and while I am finding the wait to be frustrating, he does have a life outside of his writing, so I suggest that the fans not try to make him rush to finish the next book.



I have been certain he would finish it soon for months.

And make him rush? Hasn't it been like 5 years? 

Not to mention he has 2 more after that. His average time doesn't look promising for living to see the end. 

Of course maybe he is just fuckin with us and has them all done at once.


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## Nimander (Feb 1, 2011)

Oh, God.  Don't drag GRRM into this thread.  This is a feelgood thread about a series I love, and that *insert appropriate expletive here* makes all my feelgood feelings quickly disappear.  


*Spoiler*: __ 



But seriously: fuck GRRM.  With a pole smothered in barbed wire and soaked in corrosive AIDS fluid.



Spoilered for those with delicate dispositions and virginal eyes.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 1, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> It's part of the general progression.  In book 1 Trollocs were scary beasts that the heroes hid from when possible and fought only in emergencies (given that they were mostly untrained children at the time).  Rand's battle with the Trolloc at the start of Book 1 would have been the stuff of legends in his hometown were it not for other things going on.  Myrddraal were almost untouchable (run or find a Warden (or Thom)!).  And the Forsaken were the scary nightmare stories that humans couldn't hope to match.
> 
> By Book 4 Trollocs were mostly fodder, the heroes could match Myddraal more-or-less and the weaker Forsaken were at least approchable.
> 
> ...



Yes, that is true, but why are the Seanchan still as great a threat now, at the end of the series, as they were at the beginning of the series? I do not like how they still remain a major threat to the world, and how they have outlasted several major villains, most notably many members of the Forsaken.

To change subject, did anyone notice the references to Odin, when Mat lost his eye, and to Thor, when Perrin forged a new hammer? I certainly found that to be an interesting way to develop the characters, and it also matched with how Rand lost his hand, similar to how Tyr lost his hand. How did Rand lose his hand, again? I cannot recall that, as it has been a long while since I read some of the earlier books in the series.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 1, 2011)

^ lol people noticed that seven books ago when those visions/prophesies were made, amongst other similarities.

He lost his hand due to a fireball Semirhage threw at Min him two books ago.


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## martryn (Feb 1, 2011)

> Yes, that is true, but why are the Seanchan still as great a threat now, at the end of the series, as they were at the beginning of the series? I do not like how they still remain a major threat to the world, and how they have outlasted several major villains, most notably many members of the Forsaken.



Makes sense to me.  It's like an entire other continent coming to wage war.  Definitely not something that just goes away after they lose a few battles (and win a shit ton more).


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 1, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, that is true, but why are the Seanchan still as great a threat now, at the end of the series, as they were at the beginning of the series? I do not like how they still remain a major threat to the world, and how they have outlasted several major villains, most notably many members of the Forsaken.



I'm not sure I'd say they're "still as great a threat."  In book 2 the Seanchan were represented by the forerunners (I forget the exact name) that represented a very small percentage of the empire.  How were they beaten?  By summoning the legendary heroes of old from the Horn.

Now the Seanchan are here in full force, the entire military might of a large, experienced, war-driven nation.  And they're struck and embedded all along the West and the South.  But they're still engaged and beaten.  How are they beaten now?  Cunning military tactics or (in some cases) Rand soloing an army or two.

A lesser threat, but one that's rather deeply entrenched.  It's not like the Forsaken that they are limited to 13 bodies (with a few recycled).  The leadership of the Seanchan in the 'Return' hasn't even been engaged by the "good guys" yet (and considering it's supposed to be Mat's wife now it probably won't be except in diplomatic circumstance).

Frankly the Seanchan _are_ a bigger villain/threat than the Forsaken from the point of view of Randland.


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## Cyphon (Feb 1, 2011)

The Seanchan also use "monsters" in their army and have a ton of channelers in their ranks. They are as well (if not better) equipped then pretty much anyone in the story. 

All it takes is 1 leash to make a (female) Forsaken useless.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 1, 2011)

How can anyone take the Seanchan channelers seriously after they tried to *shield* someone with one of the most powerful sa'angreal (for saidar) ever made? They are incredibly stupid and can not adapt their tactics. Something as simple as throwing a fireball is beyond their understanding. 

I hated that scene, made me curse and want to shit on someone's corpse. Which boils back to my original complaint that the "villains" are not so much defeated as they defeat themselves. At least in GRRM the people are actually outwitted and it doesn't feel like a cop out.

The Seanchean elite "blood knives" are killed by a green boy with the smell of summer still on him (). No but Gawyn the little shit killed like three of them or something. He isn't even that good.

The Seanchan are chuunin lvl fodder who are not worth mentioning as worthy adversaries.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 1, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> I'm not sure I'd say they're "still as great a threat."  In book 2 the Seanchan were represented by the forerunners (I forget the exact name) that represented a very small percentage of the empire.  How were they beaten?  By summoning the legendary heroes of old from the Horn.
> 
> Now the Seanchan are here in full force, the entire military might of a large, experienced, war-driven nation.  And they're struck and embedded all along the West and the South.  But they're still engaged and beaten.  How are they beaten now?  Cunning military tactics or (in some cases) Rand soloing an army or two.
> 
> ...



The main reason for which I dislike the Seanchan being a greater threat than the Forsaken is that they also oppose the Dark One, and therefore are automatically excluded (in my mind) from being the final villains of the series, and should actually be working with the people of the main continent against the Dark One. To make it clear, between a traditional villain, such as Emperor Palpatine, who is evil, knows that he is evil and enjoys being evil, or merely a "well-intentioned extremist," such as Anakin Skywalker before he became Darth Vader, who would seem more likely to be the final villain of a story? The Forsaken know that they are evil and enjoy being evil, but the Seanchan believe themselves to be morally just despite practicing what I find to be a morally abominable form of slavery and desiring to conquer an entire continent. To use even simpler terms, the Forsaken are the "cool, awesome villains" (such as Sosuke Aizen in _Bleach),_ while the Seanchan are the "jackass/douchebag villains" (such as Ryuji Hirasaka from _Night Shift Nurses),_ or at least they are, in my mind.



Cyphon said:


> The Seanchan also use "monsters" in their army and have a ton of channelers in their ranks. They are as well (if not better) equipped then pretty much anyone in the story.
> 
> All it takes is 1 leash to make a (female) Forsaken useless.



I am certain that a powerful female channeler, such as Lanfear, who is said to be the most powerful female channeler ever to live, could escape from an _A'dam._ Also, were not some of the heroines of the series able to resist an _A'dam's_ influence at one point? I cannot recall.


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## Nimander (Feb 1, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> How can anyone take the Seanchan channelers seriously after they tried to *shield* someone with one of the most powerful sa'angreal (for saidar) ever made? They are incredibly stupid and can not adapt their tactics. Something as simple as throwing a fireball is beyond their understanding.
> 
> I hated that scene, made me curse and want to shit on someone's corpse. Which boils back to my original complaint that the "villains" are not so much defeated as they defeat themselves. At least in GRRM the people are actually outwitted and it doesn't feel like a cop out.
> 
> ...



Holy shit, I lol'd.

Okay.  I HAVE to rep you for this.  I've been stuck inside all day because of this damned snow, and that was the best laugh I've had in the past 24 hours.  Thank you.

Shit.  Need to spread, apparently.


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## martryn (Feb 2, 2011)

I did think that Gawyn vs. the blood knives was pretty stupid.  I can understand Gawyn being an awesome swordsman and all, but that shit was pretty ridiculous.


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## Ishamael (Feb 7, 2011)

^ The entire chapter was stupid. I don't know what was worse, Gawyn defeating the three bloodknives while simultaneously trying to defend Egwene, or Egwene defeating Mesaana in the battle of wills because shes the Amyrlin Seat and the Amyrlin bows to no one. Hundreds of years worth of experience are for naught before the might of the Amyrlin.


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## LifeMaker (Feb 8, 2011)

Well, Gawyn and Egwene aren't exactly my favourite characters of the moment, so i'm biased, but yeah, i agree. I know Mesaana was no great shakes as forsaken go, but her mental ravaging by Egwene was just silly, and as for Gawyn and his fighting by sound...

*sigh*

oh well...


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 9, 2011)

I agree that Egwene's defeat of Mesaana did seem to be far too easy, but Gawyn's fight was very awesome to me; he adapted to his environment, using his hearing when his sight was useless. He demonstrated great sword-fighting skill and the ability to remain calm under stress, so I do not understand what there is to dislike about that.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 17, 2011)

Does anyone here believe that, if the _Asha'man_ and the Black Tower surivie _Tarmon Gai'don,_ they may attain the same fame and influence that the _Aes Sedai_ and the White Tower have? I certainly hope so.

Are the Seanchan even aware of the existence of the _Asha'man?_ I know that they have plans to enslave all of the channelers in the world, but they have no method of enslaving _Asha'man,_ so if they are not aware of the existence of male channelers, they shall be very surprised, in my mind.

Also, why do the _Asha'man_ train so rigorously, and use the One Power to perform nearly every task? That may seem to give them great battle prowess, but there is also the risk of injuring themselves with the power or becoming overly-reliant upon using it and thus vulnerable if they somehow are shielded from it?


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## Nae'blis (Feb 17, 2011)

Suroth got the domination band before Egeanin could destroy them. The Seanchan already made six copies, if not more.

Wheel of Time: eventually the male and female channelers will be on the same standing again.


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## Cyphon (Feb 17, 2011)

I definitely hope this last book gives us a lot of insight into the Black Tower. I have been interested to see more into it but we haven't gotten a whole lot. 

They should be an interesting addition to the war as well. 

In the end the Black Tower should actually be more powerful/bigger than the White unless it is destroyed or they combine.


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## perman07 (Feb 17, 2011)

If there is one thing I think RJ messed up on, it's how little attention he's devoted to the Black Tower and the Ashaman in the latest books. And how Rand acts as if he has more important concerns than most of the male channelers in the world gathered under Darkfriend hands.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 17, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Suroth got the domination band before Egeanin could destroy them. The Seanchan already made six copies, if not more.



I was not aware that anyone, apart from Elayne, in this age could create _angreal, sa'angreal,_ or _ter'angreal,_ but it has been a long time since I read the earlier books, so I do not recall everything from them. Also, the fact that a domination band allows a female channeler to enslave male channeler seems to be rather odd to me; an _a'dam_ requires a female channeler to enslave another female channeler, so would it not make more sense for the domination band to require a male channeler to enslave another male channeler?



Cyphon said:


> They should be an interesting addition to the war as well.
> 
> In the end the Black Tower should actually be more powerful/bigger than the White unless it is destroyed or they combine.



For your first point, I am expecting the _Asha'man_ to have a "Big Damn Heroes" (or "Big Damn Villains", depending upon whose side they assist) moment when they appear, taking everyone by surprise and basically being very awesome.

For your second point, why do you believe that? The White Tower has stood strong for over a millennium, while the Black Tower is still only several years old.



perman07 said:


> If there is one thing I think RJ messed up on, it's how little attention he's devoted to the Black Tower and the Ashaman in the latest books. And how Rand acts as if he has more important concerns than most of the male channelers in the world gathered under Darkfriend hands.



I hope that that plot line is resolved soon, also; I believe that it is now safe to presume that Mazrim Taim is a villain, so I am hoping that either Rand or Logain will have an epic battle against him. Rand seems to be the most obvious choice for being Taim's opponent, but he (Rand) is already certain to fight Moridin at _Tarmon Gai'don,_ plus, Logain has been absent from the story for some time, so it would be nice to see him have a "crowning moment or awesomeness" at least once.

On that subject, did anyone enjoy Egwene's moments of awesomeness in _The Gathering Storm:_ first, when she verbally rebuked Elaida, and then, when she defended the White Tower from the Seanchan? I definitely enjoyed both of those scenes.

And on _that_ subject, what will happen to Elaida? Will she be freed from the Seanchan and make amends with the other _Aes Sedai,_ or will she die as a _damane?_

And on _that_ subject, it has been mentioned that the fact that _sul'dam_ must be capable of channeling, as well, to properly control a _damane_ could undermine the entire society of Seanchan, so will that plot point be addressed in the final book, I hope?

Finally, when Lanfear and Moiraine fell into the _ter'angreal,_ why could they not have simply fended off the Aelfinn and Eelfinn with their power? Do the Finn have some protection against the One Power? And will they (Moiraine and Lanfear, the latter now known as Cyndane) be able to regain their full channeling power? It would be nice to see them fight at full power again, especially considering that Lanfear was supposedly the most powerful female channeler ever.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Are the Seanchan even aware of the existence of the _Asha'man?_ I know that they have plans to enslave all of the channelers in the world, but they have no method of enslaving _Asha'man,_ so if they are not aware of the existence of male channelers, they shall be very surprised, in my mind.


They are aware of male channelers. For one, they've met the Dragon Reborn. Also, word of the Black Tower would have reached them, and didn't Perrin take one when making deals with the Seanchan?


> Also, why do the _Asha'man_ train so rigorously, and use the One Power to perform nearly every task? That may seem to give them great battle prowess, but there is also the risk of injuring themselves with the power or becoming overly-reliant upon using it and thus vulnerable if they somehow are shielded from it?


Rand instructs that they are supposed to learn how to fight without using the One Power, however, as shown when fighting the few in Far Madding, some choose to shirk that duty.
As for why they train like they do, the Taint forced them to rush training. Madness was inevitable so might as well get the most work out of them.
Trying to teach them slowly also doesn't work with Tarmon Gai'don around the corner.


DemonDragonJ said:


> Also, the fact that a domination band allows a female channeler to enslave male channeler seems to be rather odd to me; an _a'dam_ requires a female channeler to enslave another female channeler, so would it not make more sense for the domination band to require a male channeler to enslave another male channeler?


So rather than having one mad man run around, you'd have two linked together and running about? 


> I hope that that plot line is resolved soon, also; I believe that it is now safe to presume that Mazrim Taim is a villain, so I am hoping that either Rand or Logain will have an epic battle against him. Rand seems to be the most obvious choice for being Taim's opponent, but he (Rand) is already certain to fight Moridin at _Tarmon Gai'don,_ plus, Logain has been absent from the story for some time, so it would be nice to see him have a "crowning moment or awesomeness" at least once.


Min has pretty much confirmed that Logain will be the one to face Taim. Also the fact that he heads the opposing faction doesn't hurt.


> And on _that_ subject, what will happen to Elaida? Will she be freed from the Seanchan and make amends with the other _Aes Sedai,_ or will she die as a _damane?_


She'll meet up with Liandrin and swap horror stories.


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## Cyphon (Feb 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> For your first point, I am expecting the _Asha'man_ to have a "Big Damn Heroes" (or "Big Damn Villains", depending upon whose side they assist) moment when they appear, taking everyone by surprise and basically being very awesome.



I think it will be both (possibly). Taim and his elites go dark while Logain and his people go good. Or perhaps some weird mix of Logain specifically heading off Taim and his force before they can truly impact the war, eliminating the Black Tower more or less completely from the main ruckus. 

Either way I am hoping for great things.



> For your second point, why do you believe that? The White Tower has stood strong for over a millennium, while the Black Tower is still only several years old.



I could have my facts twisted but aren't male channelers in general much stronger than women? 

If that is the case then that is what I was getting at. I didn't necessarily mean as far as renown or the scope of fame. Of course the Black Tower is far scarier to people due to mens reputation as channelers and so they may even have more renown in certain respects.


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## Cyphon (Feb 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> On that subject, did anyone enjoy Egwene's moments of awesomeness in _The Gathering Storm:_ first, when she verbally rebuked Elaida, and then, when she defended the White Tower from the Seanchan? I definitely enjoyed both of those scenes.



I really enjoyed both of those scenes. Honestly I enjoyed Egwene in the tower period. I don't mean to sound sexist but I don't usually like a lot of the women parts in stories as much as the male characters, but I thought she showed a ton of strength and willpower and all that. 



> And on _that_ subject, what will happen to Elaida? Will she be freed from the Seanchan and make amends with the other _Aes Sedai,_ or will she die as a _damane?_



I think Elaida may find an opportunity to deliver the message on your point below this one and do some major damage to them from the inside out.



> And on _that_ subject, it has been mentioned that the fact that _sul'dam_ must be capable of channeling, as well, to properly control a _damane_ could undermine the entire society of Seanchan, so will that plot point be addressed in the final book, I hope?



See above. 

I think with the scope of the war and things still left to happen something is going to suffer from not enough detail or time spent on it. I think its possible any one of the different story lines can be resolved with haste and still be good but it might not satisfy everyone. 



> Finally, when Lanfear and Moiraine fell into the _ter'angreal,_ why could they not have simply fended off the Aelfinn and Eelfinn with their power? Do the Finn have some protection against the One Power?



IIRC they are weak to music, iron and....I forget the third thing. Other than that they probably have special defenses for everything else. I cant remember what was said specifically outside of the 3 weaknesses.



> And will they (Moiraine and Lanfear, the latter now known as Cyndane) be able to regain their full channeling power? It would be nice to see them fight at full power again, especially considering that Lanfear was supposedly the most powerful female channeler ever.



I don't think so unless Nynaeve finds a way. Even when she healed Siuan and Lelaine they lost a lot of their total power and never mentioned getting it back overtime. 

Interesting question though, did the same thing apply to Logain? Apparently he is/was close to Rand in strength so imagine if that was just a portion from before he was gentled.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 18, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> I could have my facts twisted but aren't male channelers in general much stronger than women?


In raw power, yes, men have the upper hand.





Cyphon said:


> IIRC they are weak to music, iron and....I forget the third thing.


Fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.
However, as they are used, their effects weaken.


> I don't think so unless Nynaeve finds a way. Even when she healed Siuan and Lelaine they lost a lot of their total power and never mentioned getting it back overtime.
> 
> Interesting question though, did the same thing apply to Logain? Apparently he is/was close to Rand in strength so imagine if that was just a portion from before he was gentled.


Siuan and Lelaine are weaker and Logain is the same because they were Healed using Saidar. Opposite half of the Source is needed to Heal fully.
Had they been Healed using Saidin, Siuan and Lelaine would be the same and Logain would be weaker.


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## Cyphon (Feb 18, 2011)

Billy Cranston said:


> In raw power, yes, men have the upper hand.Fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.
> However, as they are used, their effects weaken.
> Siuan and Lelaine are weaker and Logain is the same because they were Healed using Saidar. Opposite half of the Source is needed to Heal fully.
> Had they been Healed using Saidin, Siuan and Lelaine would be the same and Logain would be weaker.



Ah okay. Thanks for clearing those things up. 

Do you think it would be possible to redo it? 

Like say Rand went in and removed what Nynaeve did and used his power to heal them.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 18, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Ah okay. Thanks for clearing those things up.
> 
> Do you think it would be possible to redo it?
> 
> Like say Rand went in and removed what Nynaeve did and used his power to heal them.



Would they allow him to heal them? And does Rand even know any weaves for healing?

And on that subject, when Elayne and Aviendha bonded themselves to Rand, they wove the proper weave and then wrapped it around Min before extending it to Rand, because Min is not capable of channeling. That seemed to be needlessly complex to me. Why did Rand not simply use the male version of the warder bond, bonding all three of them simultaneously? Or does he not know that weave? And if so, why did he not learn it? Or is that because the weave had not yet been discovered/created at that time?



Billy Cranston said:


> Fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.
> However, as they are used, their effects weaken.



How did Moiraine and Lanfear not know that? I always thought that they were quite knowledgeable about obscure facts, especially considering that Lanfear is one of the Forsaken and has been alive for several normal humans' lifetimes. Surely, they could have created fire with the One Power, could they not have?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 18, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Do you think it would be possible to redo it?
> 
> Like say Rand went in and removed what Nynaeve did and used his power to heal them.


I feel like this question was posed to Jordan and he said that what was done was done.


DemonDragonJ said:


> And on that subject, when Elayne and Aviendha bonded themselves to Rand, they wove the proper weave and then wrapped it around Min before extending it to Rand, because Min is not capable of channeling. That seemed to be needlessly complex to me. Why did Rand not simply use the male version of the warder bond, bonding all three of them simultaneously? Or does he not know that weave? And if so, why did he not learn it? Or is that because the weave had not yet been discovered/created at that time?


When would Rand have learnt it? It's not something he would have Asmodean teach him. Granted, Rand could have just pulled it out of his ass through Lews Therin or his _ta'veren_-ness.


> How did Moiraine and Lanfear not know that? I always thought that they were quite knowledgeable about obscure facts, especially considering that Lanfear is one of the Forsaken and has been alive for several normal humans' lifetimes. Surely, they could have created fire with the One Power, could they not have?


To what end? Like Birgitte, they would probably have gotten lost and their Fire would have had diminishing effect.


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## Cyphon (Feb 18, 2011)

Yeah its not like they went in prepared. They were in a cat fight and probably worn out. It would have been easy for the snakes and foxes to overrun the. 

Even Matt and them fully prepared really struggled at certain points.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 18, 2011)

Cyphon said:


> Yeah its not like they went in prepared. They were in a cat fight and probably worn out. It would have been easy for the snakes and foxes to overrun the.


Well, they should have been protected by the treaty, assuming Lanfear hadn't been through the door before. Of course, the treaty may not have extended to Lanfear as she was a Forsaken, and the Aelfinn don't even like answering questions about the Shadow.

It also depends on what their requests were and the established prices.


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## Cyphon (Feb 18, 2011)

Billy Cranston said:


> Well, they should have been protected by the treaty, assuming Lanfear hadn't been through the door before. Of course, the treaty may not have extended to Lanfear as she was a Forsaken, and the Aelfinn don't even like answering questions about the Shadow.
> 
> It also depends on what their requests were and the established prices.



For some reason I completely forgot about the treaty. 

You are right though. Jordan could have worked multiple angles in any case.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 18, 2011)

Billy Cranston said:


> It also depends on what their requests were and the established prices.



I definitely am very interested to learn what questions Moiraine and Lanfear had for the Finn, and what prices they need to pay. Of course, I would imagine that having their ability to channel slowly drained away would constitute a very significant payment indeed, because it is such a significant aspect of who they are, and especially considering that, as I said before, Lanfear was perhaps the most powerful female channeler ever.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 18, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I definitely am very interested to learn what questions Moiraine and Lanfear had for the Finn, and what prices they need to pay.


Well, Moiraine would have been making wishes rather than asking questions as the Rhuidean doorway led to the Eelfinn. Though we don't see her with any objects, she may have requested knowledge like Mat did. I'm not sure if the Eelfinn can really affect events or things outside of their world.

This is all assuming she wasn't roped in with Lanfear as dealing with the Shadow.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 19, 2011)

As I said above, it is almost guaranteed that Rand will fight Moridin at _Tarmon Gai'don,_ and that Logain will fight Taim, but who will fight Demandred? Demandred has an intense hatred for Lews Therin, which he transferred to Rand, Lews Therin's reincarnation, but is that a guarantee that they will have a battle? What does everyone else believe?


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## perman07 (Feb 19, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> As I said above, it is almost guaranteed that Rand will fight Moridin at _Tarmon Gai'don,_ and that Logain will fight Taim, but who will fight Demandred? Demandred has an intense hatred for Lews Therin, which he transferred to Rand, Lews Therin's reincarnation, but is that a guarantee that they will have a battle? What does everyone else believe?


You're talking as if this is One Piece or some other shonen where the top good guys face 1 top bad guy each. It wouldn't surprise me if Mat, Perrin, various Aes Sedai or someone else faced someone they technically didn't match up with.

I also think a lot of the action will actually happen in channeling circles and huge battlefields, and as such, it will be collaborative efforts instead of individual feats.

We'll just have to see I guess..


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## Nae'blis (Feb 19, 2011)

Bela, obviously.


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## martryn (Feb 19, 2011)

I thought Moiraine asked for more ability to channel or something like that.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't she have a sa'angreal?


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 19, 2011)

perman07 said:


> You're talking as if this is One Piece or some other shonen where the top good guys face 1 top bad guy each. It wouldn't surprise me if Mat, Perrin, various Aes Sedai or someone else faced someone they technically didn't match up with.



What is wrong with that? It is much more personal and dramatic, and also makes sense. To continue your example, can you imagine anyone other than Luffy battling Crocodile, Enel, or Akainu? I cannot, because it would just seem to be too odd and not properly dramatic. For similar reasons, I am excepting each major character in this series to battle someone who is an opponent well-suited for them in the final battle; and by "well-suited," I mean that they are of equal or nearly equal strength and have at least some personal reason to fight each other. Such a tactic seems to be both logical and properly epic, in my mind.


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## Ishamael (Feb 19, 2011)

martryn said:


> I thought Moiraine asked for more ability to channel or something like that.  Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't she have a sa'angreal?


 No, she got a very powerful angreal, powerful enough to almost be a sa'angreal. Its a bracelet in the form of person bent over backwards. Moiraine said it makes her a bit more powerful than before she went into the Aelfinn and Eelfinn realm.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 19, 2011)

So basically, while wearing it, she is still one of the most powerful AS.

Verin was such a good source of information and such, now everything she ever said is suspect.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 21, 2011)

I'd forgotten about the bracelet.





Nae'blis said:


> Bela, obviously.


Why would the Creator get directly involved?


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## perman07 (Feb 21, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> What is wrong with that? It is much more personal and dramatic, and also makes sense. To continue your example, can you imagine anyone other than Luffy battling Crocodile, Enel, or Akainu? I cannot, because it would just seem to be too odd and not properly dramatic. For similar reasons, I am excepting each major character in this series to battle someone who is an opponent well-suited for them in the final battle; and by "well-suited," I mean that they are of equal or nearly equal strength and have at least some personal reason to fight each other. Such a tactic seems to be both logical and properly epic, in my mind.


There's nothing WRONG with it, I love One Piece after all, and setting up good fights makes things more enjoyable. The only thing is that such matching is clich? and unrealistic. In reality, important events are often thoroughly UNdramatic in actuality, and it's obvious RJ has tried to use history to create a somewhat realistic world (magic, ogiers and darkspawn not withstanding). In WW2, German and British commanders didn't fight each other personally, if they fought anyone personally, they fought "fodder".

We see a hint of this type of realism in Wheel of time with for instance Osan'gar falling to Elza without almost any drama. Pedron Niall who was set up as a major player in the plot fell to an underling just cutting him down.

I'm not saying Rand won't get to face a couple of Forsaken, just saying we probably won't get this perfect structure typical of shonen where popular characters are given a fight each.


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## Vault (Feb 21, 2011)

I originally wanted to get Song of ice and fire series but my library withdrew it, Instead i got this  Well the first 3 books

Are they any good? I only picked it up because i wanted a fantasy book and since i remember seeing the thread i said why not


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## perman07 (Feb 21, 2011)

Vault said:


> I originally wanted to get Song of ice and fire series but my library withdrew it, Instead i got this  Well the first 3 books
> 
> Are they any good? I only picked it up because i wanted a fantasy book and since i remember seeing the thread i said why not


Yeah, it's really good. Though I suppose you will get biased opinions since the people subscribing to this thread are probably the ones who will answer.


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## Vault (Feb 21, 2011)

Well you have a point there  But i couldnt find anywhere else to ask.


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## masamune1 (Feb 21, 2011)

I only read about half of the first book and the beginning of the second.

For me, I usually end up reading _aboutI/I] a series before I actually read[\I] the series, so I knew a lot of the plot details in advance and I knew that this was only the start of a much, much, much longer story. Thats basically why I put the first one down. It wasn't bad; I just foubd myself not having the effort to trudge through all that story.

The second, I don't know if I picked that up first by accident or if I skipped to it to speed things along. Either way I put it down quickly, because after the first couple of chapters I found myself wanting to kill every single woman I could get my hands on. The females were such bitches I couldn't stand it, which is why I put the book down. Again, I was also thinking about just how damn long that story was going to be, and I knew that if the girls ever got better it wouldn't be for a long, long time. I wasn't in the mood that day, and I haven't been since.

So thats my- non biased (or counter-biased)- contribution to the subject matter. I didn't think it was a bad story; I just personally didn't have the patience for it. And while I have blitzed through some fantasy series and other books in the past (like Farseer, and The Dark Tower) there are others that take me literally years to read. So don't take my frustrations with the story for granted- as I remember it was readable, interesting, and just a bit slow taking off. I just wasn't really in the mood for it._


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## Nae'blis (Feb 21, 2011)

The first book is good up until the chapter "Meetings at the Eye" or whatever. I just move on to the next book at that point. Then again I skip over some/most of the battles when I read _Lord of the Rings_. But I guess it is necessary to read those chapters the first time you read the series.


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## Cyphon (Feb 21, 2011)

It took me awhile to start on the first book because the series seemed overwhelming at first but I enjoyed it all of the way through. 

I think its definitely a worthy read if you are looking for a long and interesting journey.


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## perman07 (Feb 22, 2011)

I remember I just HAD to read book number 2 when book 1 finished with Morraine saying "The Dragon is reborn" while eavesdropping. Remember I got goosebumps when I read that.

That's usually how it is for me though, once I reach a certain point in a piece of fiction, I have to keep following it (even if it could be better) and will do so unless it starts sucking tremendously.


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## Ishamael (Feb 22, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> I only read about half of the first book and the beginning of the second.
> 
> For me, I usually end up reading _aboutI/I] a series before I actually read[\I] the series, so I knew a lot of the plot details in advance and I knew that this was only the start of a much, much, much longer story. Thats basically why I put the first one down. It wasn't bad; I just foubd myself not having the effort to trudge through all that story.
> 
> The second, I don't know if I picked that up first by accident or if I skipped to it to speed things along. Either way I put it down quickly, because after the first couple of chapters I found myself wanting to kill every single woman I could get my hands on. The females were such bitches I couldn't stand it, which is why I put the book down. Again, I was also thinking about just how damn long that story was going to be, and I knew that if the girls ever got better it wouldn't be for a long, long time. I wasn't in the mood that day, and I haven't been since. _


_ I don't think I had any hatred towards the woman at that point but they get worse, a lot worse.



Nae'blis said:



			The first book is good up until the chapter "Meetings at the Eye" or whatever. I just move on to the next book at that point. Then again I skip over some/most of the battles when I read Lord of the Rings. But I guess it is necessary to read those chapters the first time you read the series.
		
Click to expand...

 Why do you stop there? That's when she gets real._


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## Vault (Feb 23, 2011)

So basically what i gathred from all your feedback is if i get bored i have a right to just skip on to the next book? No thanks i shall return them.


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## Ishamael (Feb 23, 2011)

Vault said:


> So basically what i gathred from all your feedback is if i get bored i have a right to just skip on to the next book? No thanks i shall return them.


At least try the first and if you like it, continue. People only skip parts after their first read, you really should read through everything your first time around.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 23, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> So basically, while wearing it, she is still one of the most powerful AS.



Moiraine certainly was a powerful and skilled channeler, but I do not recall it ever being stated that she was on the same level as such people as Egwene, Nynaeve, or the Forsaken.

As for reading this series, I would definitely recommend it to anyone who is fond of medieval fantasy literature, The first several books start the series strongly, introducing the reader to the world, characters, and plot, and while the middle books tend to be unnecessarily long and tedious at times, they do contain vital plot developments, and the most recent books have featured better pacing and character development, at least in my mind.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 24, 2011)

Just to be clear: of the AS only Nynaeve is comparable in sheer strength with the female forsaken, and she would be the amongst the weakest. Alivia though is Lanfear level or even possibly stronger. Talaan (the Sea Folk girl who shielded Nynaeve) and Sharina (novice) are also stronger than Nynaeve in the one power. Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha are not as strong.

Moraine, Cadsuane, Elaida and Siuan were the most powerful channelers amongst the AS before Nynaeve showed up. And Verin put Moraine on the same level when she said that Moraine would be  (one of the very few) able to channel through the female Choedan Kal safely.


Ishamael said:


> Why do you stop there? That's when she gets real.


The battle was meh. It's the foreplay that gets you wet.


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## perman07 (Feb 24, 2011)

Read a pretty good ranking (with extensive reasoning) on the strength of female channelers:


Talaan was stated as being at the same level of Nyneave in the blog with this reasoning:
"The Windfinder apprentice Talaan is also on the same level as Nynaeve:

    Talaan so meek in her red linen blouse, with eyes that seemed permanently downcast, came very close to Nynaeve [in strength]. Very close.

    - The Path of Daggers, Unweaving

    and Talaan matched her as closely as made no difference

    - Winter’s Heart, Ideas of Importance

and remember that women can sense ultimate potential, not just current. Every so often Jordan reminds us that Elayne and Nynaeve have had very little formal training. Their uncertainty over whether Talaan’s strength is her current strength or her ultimate strength is one such example. They should have been able to tell the difference. Since they could only sense one strength for Talaan, it was probably her ultimate strength."


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## Nae'blis (Feb 24, 2011)

I like Talaan, she needs to make another appearance.


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## Ishamael (Feb 24, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> The battle was meh. It's the foreplay that gets you wet.


 I liked the fight, The Green Man was pretty cool and Rand vs Aginor was pretty interesting as well, the entire fight was pretty unique and different from anything else in the series.



Nae'blis said:


> I like Talaan, she needs to make another appearance.


 Me too, but what potential role is there for her in aMoL? We don't know how well she can fight and she stills seems pretty meek, so she could probably still be pretty easily intimidated by weaker dreadlords. Its also going to be hard to find her screen time considering how many other important characters need their time to shine as well.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 24, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Just to be clear: of the AS only Nynaeve is comparable in sheer strength with the female forsaken, and she would be the amongst the weakest. Alivia though is Lanfear level or even possibly stronger. Talaan (the Sea Folk girl who shielded Nynaeve) and Sharina (novice) are also stronger than Nynaeve in the one power. Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha are not as strong.
> 
> Moraine, Cadsuane, Elaida and Siuan were the most powerful channelers amongst the AS before Nynaeve showed up. And Verin put Moraine on the same level when she said that Moraine would be  (one of the very few) able to channel through the female Choedan Kal safely.



Yes, I had forgotten much of that, as it has been years since I read the earlier books of the series. If what you said is true, I now find it even more incredulous that Egwene was able to defeat Mesaana, although being in _Tel'Aran'Rhiod_ may have been a significant factor in that battle.

Was Alivia using an _angreal_ when Cyndane (Lanfear's new incarnation) encountered her? Lanfear was said to be the most powerful female channeler ever, so how was Alivia even more powerful than her? Was Lanfear simply being arrogant, or is Alivia actually is more powerful than her (like Goku surpassing Freeza in power in _Dragon Ball)?_

As for your comment about the _Choedan Kal,_ why is that they, and other _sa'angreal,_ have buffers to limit the amount of power that a channeler can draw through them? I thought that the purpose of a _sa'angreal_ was to allow a channeler to channel a greater amount of power than they can without assistance? Or is it simply that a _sa'angreal_ increases the upper limit of how much power a channeler can channel?

For example, to quantify the usage of the one power, which likely is not an accurate depiction: a typical channeler could hypothetically channel up to 10 points of power, and if they attempted to channel any more power than that, they would risk destroying themselves. A _sa'angreal_ would then allow them to safely channel up to 20 points of power before they risked destroying themselves. As simple and possibly inaccurate as that may be, is that the basic idea of the situation, or am I completely incorrect?

To change subject, in _The Gathering Storm,_ Rand used what was likely the same power than Moridin is using; power drawn directly from the Dark One himself, rather than from _Saidin._ Does this mean that Moridin may tempt Rand to join the Dark One during the final battle or otherwise say that they are "not so different?" I certainly believe that such an occurrence coudl add much drama and tension to the story.


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## Ishamael (Feb 24, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Was Alivia using an _angreal_ when Cyndane (Lanfear's new incarnation) encountered her? Lanfear was said to be the most powerful female channeler ever, so how was Alivia even more powerful than her? Was Lanfear simply being arrogant, or is Alivia actually is more powerful than her (like Goku surpassing Freeza in power in _Dragon Ball)?_


Yeah, Alivia had Nynaeve's ring and bracelet angreal and ter'angreal this made her stronger than Lanfear without angreal/sa'angreal boosts. Cyndane also had an angreal but not as powerful as Alivia's. Also I still think Cyndane is slightly stronger then Alivia, Cyndane lost very little of her strength in the power and she is probably still the most powerful female channeler unless they introduce somebody new.



> As for your comment about the _Choedan Kal,_ why is that they, and other _sa'angreal,_ have buffers to limit the amount of power that a channeler can draw through them? I thought that the purpose of a _sa'angreal_ was to allow a channeler to channel a greater amount of power than they can without assistance? Or is it simply that a _sa'angreal_ increases the upper limit of how much power a channeler can channel?
> 
> For example, to quantify the usage of the one power, which likely is not an accurate depiction: a typical channeler could hypothetically channel up to 10 points of power, and if they attempted to channel any more power than that, they would risk destroying themselves. A _sa'angreal_ would then allow them to safely channel up to 20 points of power before they risked destroying themselves. As simple and possibly inaccurate as that may be, is that the basic idea of the situation, or am I completely incorrect?


I think your correct on that account, they have a set amount of power in them, so everyone draws the same amount despite their initial strength. I might be incorrect about this though.



> To change subject, in _The Gathering Storm,_ Rand used what was likely the same power than Moridin is using; power drawn directly from the Dark One himself, rather than from _Saidin._ Does this mean that Moridin may tempt Rand to join the Dark One during the final battle or otherwise say that they are "not so different?" I certainly believe that such an occurrence coudl add much drama and tension to the story.


Rand drew the True Power in his fight against Semirhage. The chances of Moridin attempting to convince Rand to join the shadow are extremely slim. If you recall the conversation they had in TAR Moridin seemed eager to die and destroy the pattern. Also Moridin hates Rand and has made it evident he wants to be the one to kill him.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 25, 2011)

perman07 said:


> Read a pretty good ranking (with extensive reasoning) on the strength of female channelers:
> 
> 
> Talaan was stated as being at the same level of Nyneave in the blog with this reasoning:
> ...



What an excellent find, Perman; that page gives a great amount of information on the female channelers in the series. It also would be nice to have such a post for the male channelers, but because they cyurrently are far less common than female channelers, such a list may not be necessary.


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## perman07 (Feb 26, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> What an excellent find, Perman; that page gives a great amount of information on the female channelers in the series. It also would be nice to have such a post for the male channelers, but because they cyurrently are far less common than female channelers, such a list may not be necessary.


Well, it features such a list about the male Forsaken, but not about all male channelers. I think there probably isn't enough information about the strength of Ashaman compared to each other because we only have Rand's perspective to place them (and he is vastly stronger than everyone of them except Logain and Taim) and because men only can sense how much Saidin is being held, not how much total strength other male channelers have. For Aes Sedai, we have Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha and Nynaeve's perspectives (and I guess also Morraine in New Spring), and it bares relevance in the plot who various Aes Sedai defer to (so we therefore get told who is stronger)

Here's the male forsaken ranking though:


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## Nae'blis (Feb 26, 2011)

After Rand went God-mode, I can't say that anyone in this Age can match up. This might be pure fanwank, but didn't Rand split his flows more than 100 ways and destroy a million shadow-spawn, all while sitting down to tea and scones? Elan Morin is probably the same level as Rand and Demandred below that, but lol Logain?


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## perman07 (Feb 26, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> After Rand went God-mode, I can't say that anyone in this Age can match up. This might be pure fanwank, but didn't Rand split his flows more than 100 ways and destroy a million shadow-spawn, all while sitting down to tea and scones? Elan Morin is probably the same level as Rand and Demandred below that, but lol Logain?


Well, Rand has been described as being stronger than Logain, wasn't trying to say anything else. I'm just saying the difference to every other Ashaman except Logain and Taim is so big that Rand's perspective really doesn't help place them as accurately as the Aes Sedai are placed.


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## Ishamael (Feb 26, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> After Rand went God-mode, I can't say that anyone in this Age can match up. This might be pure fanwank, but didn't Rand split his flows more than 100 ways and destroy a million shadow-spawn, all while sitting down to tea and scones? Elan Morin is probably the same level as Rand and Demandred below that, but lol Logain?


If your referring to the scene in ToM where he fucks some shit up in Saldaea then yeah he split his weaves 100 ways, and destroyed hundreds of thousand Shadowspawn. No tea or scones were in involved however. 

I really wonder whose stronger between Logain and Taim, they'll probably end up being in equal in their strength in the power since it seems likely they'll fight one another at TG.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 2, 2011)

I find it to be unfortunate that with the exception of Rand, there have been very little chapters told from the perspective of a male channeler, which has given the audience little insight as to how _Saidin_ works and the general overall strength of the male channelers in this series. By contrast, there are numerous chapters told from the perspectives of numerous different female channelers, which has given the audience ample insight into the nature of _Saidar_ and the overall strength of female channelers. What does everyone else say about that? Are also disappointed by this discrimination of perspectives?


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## LifeMaker (Mar 2, 2011)

Well at least it will all be answered in the WoT Encyclopedia they are working on, which will include RJ's full highly detailed list of channelers strengths


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## Cyphon (Mar 2, 2011)

@Demon - I have always stood by the fact that I wanted more from the Black Tower which would definitely appease yours and my appetite for more insight on the male channelers. Specifically I would like to see more from Logain and Taim. Even more specifically the inner workings of Taim's elites and what goes down in there, although I like Logain better.


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## perman07 (Mar 3, 2011)

I think Jordan wanted to create suspense about what insidious things were happening inside the Black Tower, so he was scarce with information. There's been a lot of speculation as to who Taim really is since he seems to know things people from the current age shouldn't know. I think there will probably be several "shockers" in the last book about this.

But Jordan went too far in keeping the mystery up and has really stretched the plot of the Black Tower thin over lots of books now. It's felt more like nothing's happening there instead of a lot which I think wasn't his intention. It's a common fault authors often do when they want to create some shocking surprise and draw it out too long. Or at least that's my theory on how he managed to make one of the most interesting part of the books so boring over these last books.


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## Spartacus (Mar 23, 2011)

Only just finished ToM today, since I only got my filthy hands on it a couple of days ago.

The most intriguing chapters to me, were the future sights Aviendha saw while in Rhuidean.

It pretty much seems to me that Rand needs to break the Seanchan culture to get them integrated into Randland, instead of bowing to the Empress, as the Seanschan expects, due to their corrupted prophecies.

I mean, the chapters were heartwrenching (I love the Aiel), while also intriguing due to the future we saw. Them putting down railways between Shara and Randland reminded me of the wild west.


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## Nae'blis (Mar 23, 2011)

I guess we'll find out in the epilogue if was able to change it.


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## Nae'blis (Jul 7, 2011)

Is Rand still the only person who doesn't know about Perrin's connection to the wolves?


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## Ishamael (Jul 7, 2011)

I think so. Back in TSR Rand never asked him about it and Perrin himself never brought it up to Rand. After that they never have another direct confrontation with one another. And I don't think anybody has bothered to tell Rand about it (we all know how much the good guys tell one another in WOT).


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## Nimander (Jul 20, 2011)

Now I'm sad that this book isn't coming out until next year(?).  But when it comes out I'll be even more sad that 1) the series will be over and 2) we'll probably never get that book about Mat and Tuon after The Last Battle.  With Mat being my favorite character in the series, and one of my favorite literary characters of all time, I would've enjoyed that story regardless of how well written it was.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 6, 2011)

Next year? ugh


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Nov 23, 2011)

I just finished ToM, i liked a lot the mutual growth and interaction between Perrin and Galad. 

Can't wait to see the rescue of Caemlyn, i expect Mat to be on charge while the other generals will worry about the Borderlands. And obviously Logain has to do something about the troubles into the Black Tower.


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## Nimander (Nov 28, 2011)

Read through the series a fourth time recently.  Fucking loved it, as always.  Am ready to re-classify Rand and his upgrades though, based on a newer perspective of things.

Rand 1.0- wool-headed sheepherder in the beginning of the series.  Blandly cliche and uninteresting; the very definition of one-dimensional

Rand 2.0- Rand after the Stone and his acceptance of his destiny.  This is where we really saw him start to develop in an interesting direction, though he was still a somewhat unlikable character at times

Rand 2.5- Rand after Dumai's Wells, a.k.a. "Steel" Rand.  It was interesting, and almost eerie, how well he learned to muffle his emotions.  That one time in Far Madding, where he's talking to Min about how he faced one of the rogue Asha'man.  She was saying, "But I didn't feel fear, worry, or anything through the bond?" and he said, "Why I would I feel those things; he needed killing, so I killed him" (horrible paraphrase).  As unbalanced as he was, I can't help but admire someone that has such iron control over their most instinctual reactions.

Rand 3.0- Rand after Semirhage worked him over, a.k.a. "Cuendillar" Rand.  A legitimately scary character.  I think I loved this stage of Rand the best because it had all the makings of a tragic hero, with a touch of amoral evil genius thrown in there for good measure.  I literally cackled with glee (yes, CACKLED) after seeing Rand formulate and pull off his scheme to take down Graendal.  Even after I read it the second time.  It takes a truly cold bastard to pull off something like that.  I loved it.  I almost wish we'd had more time with 3.0, but the plot had been stretched out enough as it was.

Rand 4.0- a.k.a. "God" Rand, full of lines like "All the eyes of the Shadow are upon me, and shall remain so until I blind them".  I honestly don't know who's particular line that is, whether it's Jordan's or Sanderson's, but I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.  Especially with some of the inevitable complications that are going to come Rand's way because of his past actions.  

And Mat was, of course, consistently awesome.  Figuring out that his ashandarei was a Chekov's Gun?  Being the only character to have the balls to talk back to the Aes Sedai, whose attitudes I myself as a reader was coming to hate?  How can you not love the guy?  

*Mat-wanking over*

Cannot wait till next year.  I hear fall 2012 is supposed to be when MoL drops, but I strongly suspect it'll be something more like late spring/early summer.


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## DemonDragonJ (Nov 29, 2011)

Does anyone here believe that Rand really is going to fight the Dark One before he deals with the Seanchan? Would that not be terribly anti-climactic, as the Dark One has been the main antagonist since the beginning of the series?


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## Nae'blis (Nov 30, 2011)

I keep on forgetting that he lost an eye...  so much for awesome fighting skills without depth perception. But Uno can do it so it shouldn't be completely messed up.


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## Nimander (Dec 2, 2011)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Does anyone here believe that Rand really is going to fight the Dark One before he deals with the Seanchan? Would that not be terribly anti-climactic, as the Dark One has been the main antagonist since the beginning of the series?



Rand dealing with the Seanchan, or at least putting off the resolution with the Seanchan until after the Dark One is defeated, would make sense as something of a finale to the story.  After all, Jordan did originally plan to do a kind of epilogue to the series in Mat and Tuon's story, so ending the first WoT series on that note would've made a nice segue into that part of the story.

But, since Jordan passed, and we may no longer see that story, we could indeed see Rand dealing with the Seanchan first, before moving on to the Dark One.  



Nae'blis said:


> I keep on forgetting that he lost an eye...  so much for awesome fighting skills without depth perception. But Uno can do it so it shouldn't be completely messed up.



It was strongly implied that his luck would help make up for his lost eye, so I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes even more deadly after this.  His opponents would be given to selling him short because of his handicap, not knowing that Mat could very likely trip on a branch, have his hand fling out, and have one of his knives accidentally fly out of its holster and bury itself in the guy's eye.  

So it could honestly go either way for him.  But whatever happens to his fighting skills, he's still a badass general and strategist, so this might just mean that he spends more time letting others do the fighting and directing from the background.


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## martryn (Dec 2, 2011)

Mat with both eyes and sick still kicked the shit out of Galad and Gawyn at the same time, and we've seen just how badass those two are recently.  Mat with one eye and healthy should still be able to kick the shit out of everyone excepting River Tam with a lightsaber.


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## Nimander (Dec 6, 2011)

I'm looking forward to seeing how Perrin is gonna get maimed, as screwed up as that sounds.  Rand is walking these days short one hand, and Mat short one eye.  What's Perrin gonna lose?  A foot? 

And I have to say, after I read over the series again, I love the way that Jordan did take his time with developing Perrin and Egwene.  Their plotlines might have been absolutely yawn-inducing for most of the series, but around the time of Knife of Dreams, they really started getting interesting.  I absolutely love the way Egwene ascended to the Amyrlin Seat, and Perrin was just flatout badass (if a bit asspulled in his sudden in-depth knowledge of military tactics) in Towers of Midnight.  

The only major characters that were present from the very beginning that never really developed in a way I found interesting are Nynaeve and Elayne.  I think I've actually liked Nynaeve's character like, twice in this entire series.  And I probably could have skimmed over every Elayne-focused chapter if I hadn't wanted to miss what happened to the characters around her.  So I'm not expecting much from both in the final book.


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## Damaris (Dec 6, 2011)

i disagree with you on nynaeve (always loved her for some reason) but god elayne is always guaranteed to be a yawn fest, even when she's in the middle of the action. her pov is just so...so...elayne-ish.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 7, 2011)

How would Perrin have fared against Mesaana in _Tel'Aran'Rhiod?_ I know that Mesaana was Egwene's designated opponent, but I still wonder about that potential battle.


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## martryn (Dec 7, 2011)

> How would Perrin have fared against Mesaana in Tel'Aran'Rhiod? I know that Mesaana was Egwene's designated opponent, but I still wonder about that potential battle.



At the time Egwene faced her?  Probably not as well as Egwene.  Now?  Probably better than Egwene.


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## Nimander (Dec 7, 2011)

Damaris said:


> i disagree with you on nynaeve (always loved her for some reason) but god elayne is always guaranteed to be a yawn fest, even when she's in the middle of the action. her pov is just so...so...elayne-ish.



The only times I've liked her character was when she healed Logain and when she managed to find a way to heal madness.  Both pretty badass accomplishments, especially considering how everyone proclaimed both to be "impossible".  

But her actual character is annoying as fuck.  If I knew someone like Nynaeve in real life, and was in a position where I could not ignore or walk away from her, I probably would punch that particular person.  Male or female.  Multiple times.  Reading from her POV just shows me a person whose every action somehow manages to rub me the wrong way.  I've rarely disliked a fictional character as much as I have Nynaeve.


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## martryn (Dec 7, 2011)

Nynaeve got better when everyone started ignoring her or stopped treating her like she was so damn special.  Really, the last three or four books Nynaeve has been alright.  Elayne, however, is a fucking bitch.  I can't believe I was fond of her for the first several books of the series.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 7, 2011)

Why was Nyneave acting so strangely towards Mat from the time they left Salidar and a bit into the Ebou Dar story? She kept on avoiding him; the comments she made to Birgitte about him. Her behaviour was incredibly childish and I could never exactly pinpoint the cause.

Never really liked Elayne after the journey to Tanchico... and she got worse ever book after that.





> And obviously Logain has to do something about the troubles into the Black Tower.


Don't see how he can considering he is on the other side of the dreamspike.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 7, 2011)

If I recall correctly, Loial and the other Ogiers have not been seen for several books; does anyone here hope that they play a role in the final book? I certainly hope so.


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## martryn (Dec 7, 2011)

> Why was Nyneave acting so strangely towards Mat from the time they left Salidar and a bit into the Ebou Dar story? She kept on avoiding him; the comments she made to Birgitte about him. Her behaviour was incredibly childish and I could never exactly pinpoint the cause.



What book was that?  I need to go back and reread that sort of stuff.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 7, 2011)

That happens in a ACoS, but I'm almost sure the cause was in LoC.


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## martryn (Dec 7, 2011)

I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  Just Nynaeve being a bitch.  She was probably acting like that because she was coming to the slow realization that Mat was someone to respect and listen to, and that she was wrong in the past, and she was trying to resist that.  Women have crazy stupid logic sometimes.


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Dec 7, 2011)

Nynaeve and Elayne treated poorly Mat because they were on a Aes Sedai mission and didn't want him to mingle with them. They were fucking high and mighty as newly Aes Sedai and underestimated Mat, but thanks to his POVs that was the only time that i liked Elayne.

I love Nynaeve for her key role with Dark Rand and i like her plotting and worries for Lan.


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## perman07 (Dec 7, 2011)

Nae'blis said:


> Why was Nyneave acting so strangely towards Mat from the time they left Salidar and a bit into the Ebou Dar story? She kept on avoiding him; the comments she made to Birgitte about him. Her behaviour was incredibly childish and I could never exactly pinpoint the cause.


I think it was because Egwene told her to be polite to him. And avoiding him was easier to her than being polite to such an unbearable man.

I recall her kicking him too when they discovered channeling didn't work against him. Maybe some shame for acting that way was involved too.


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## Mello Yellow (Dec 13, 2011)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why was Nyneave acting so strangely towards Mat from the time they left Salidar and a bit into the Ebou Dar story? She kept on avoiding him; the comments she made to Birgitte about him. Her behaviour was incredibly childish and I could never exactly pinpoint the cause.

-------------------
I recall her kicking him too when they discovered channeling didn't work against him. Maybe some shame for acting that way was involved too.
_________________________________________________________


NF or this computer or something is not cooperating with me.

I wanted to simply quote Nae'blis and perman07, but ooooohhhh nooooo. I can't seem to do that. So, do pardon my lazy ass method. 


I just feel I confident in the answer to Nae'blis's question, which perm touches on.

It's exactly the kicking thing. If you recall, Nyneave kicks Mat and he advances on her. And she is afraid. Of him. The women have seen that their magic won't protect them from him. Nyneave acts out anyway...out of habit. Mat stalks toward her. He stops when Egwene calls him off...or at least grabs his attention. Then Egwene tells Nyneave she better avoid Mat for awhile (after Mat has gone). Next thing we see is Mat's PoV and he tries to head to Nyneave, but she runs from him. And she continues avoiding him.

For the first point If I hafta step back and be all "literature student" about the whole thing I'd say that for one thing it's meant to illustrate Mat's evolving character. It's not really as much about Nyneave as it is about this idea that Mat is no longer the boy who traps badgers. The women disrespect him throughout most of the Ebou Dar episode, but they cannot tame him. 

Which is the second point.

WoT begins as something of a matriarchy. The Aes Sedai are unparalleled in power. Women in the most humble of societies (like that of Two Rivers) enjoy equal standing with the men, at the very least. Sometimes they hold blatent positions of power...like the Andorian throne. Women, in general, are not accustomed to being overwhelmed by men.

Then three stubborn village boys show up. 

It throws everything off, not just for the smooth-faced Aes Sedai....but everybody. Rand, Perrin and Mat break _all_ the rules. For one thing, you are supposed to kow tow to Aes Sedai and do what ever they say...none of the three do that after the first two books. 

Geez...I could go on forever about the gender dynamics but...


TLR

Mat seemed scary. Nyneave was afraid. And PO'd that she was afraid.


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## Nimander (Dec 14, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 





DemonDragonJ said:


> If I recall correctly, Loial and the other Ogiers have not been seen for several books; does anyone here hope that they play a role in the final book? I certainly hope so.






They undoubtedly will.  Since Loial manages to convince them at the Stump not to use the Book of Translation to jump worlds, they're probably gonna show up as last minute allies to Rand sometime in the middle or near the end of the Last Battle.  


*Spoiler*: __ 





martryn said:


> I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  Just Nynaeve being a bitch.  She was probably acting like that because she was coming to the slow realization that Mat was someone to respect and listen to, and that she was wrong in the past, and she was trying to resist that.  Women have crazy stupid logic sometimes.







Keeping in mind how the series was also supposed to be Jordan's way of representing gender differences/dynamics/relationships, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he purposely wrote Nynaeve to be as downright annoying as she is.  All of the major female characters have their unique quirks and such, so I'm guessing that's Nynaeve's.  

And I suppose I'll admit there are some times where I kinda enjoyed her character.  But they are so few and far between that it's hard for me to even remember.  Though I think her punching Moghedien or some other female channeler is somewhere near the top of that list.


*Spoiler*: __ 





Mello Yellow said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Why was Nyneave acting so strangely towards Mat from the time they left Salidar and a bit into the Ebou Dar story? She kept on avoiding him; the comments she made to Birgitte about him. Her behaviour was incredibly childish and I could never exactly pinpoint the cause.
> 
> ...






Excellent analysis.  I just got done agreeing with you in another thread, and now you make another 5-star post.  Now I have no choice but to rep you.  Dammit.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 14, 2011)

Nyneave is the least annoying/bitchy of the powerpuff girls. She was only like that for two books, but aside from that only Moraine (Min, Aveindha) isn't a complete and utterly annoying bitch when it comes to female characters.

I really don't see what some of you consider annoying about her... compared to the rest.


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## Nimander (Dec 14, 2011)

I guess I find her utter reluctance to back down and admit when she's wrong to be annoying.  Plus her habit of bullying others early on in the series.  I'm not big on abrasive/overbearing people in real life, so Nynaeve's character was never really gonna appeal to me.  

That said, to be perfectly fair, a lot of the female characters in the series were indeed cut from the same mold.  It's just that most of the other ones at least had some redeeming values to balance out the bad.  Not so much among the Aes Sedai, but among some of the other named characters.  It's one of the reasons why I absolutely loved Sanderson's representation of Mat.

Joline: "That medallion do make you impudent, Master Cauthon."

Mat: "No, my mouth makes me impudent.  The medallion makes me truthful."

If I hadn't absolutely loved Mat before then, that line would've sealed it for me.  The fact that he is one of the few that isn't afraid to talk back to them, for most of the series, is part of what endeared him to me.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 14, 2011)

eh, I don't know. She has the role as Wisdom and guardian firmly in place, so I don't really mind her taking control. Maybe I just hate Egwene and Elaine too much to see past it


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## Nimander (Dec 14, 2011)

Egwene was a bland character until she became likable, so I can see where you're coming from with that.  And Elayne just pretty much stayed bland throughout.  Made some stupid decisions along the way too, that should've gotten her killed at least twice by all rights.  

But even they kinda had their redemptive qualities.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 14, 2011)

When did she become likeable? Just curious.


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## Nimander (Dec 14, 2011)

Honestly, when she proved to the Aes Sedai that nominated her for Amyrlin that she wasn't a puppet to be manipulated.  When she led by example, and took the more difficult path to being recognized as a leader, instead of taking her army and running roughshod over Tar Valon by Traveling in, like she could've done at any time.  'Twas almost Ghandi-like. I especially love when she quietly manipulated the Hall into declaring that she was the only one who could deal with Rand, since he was a monarch and the Hall would be responsible for handling the army.

She basically became the penultimate Aes Sedai, but didn't sacrifice her values in doing so.  And even saying all that, I still believe that she has quite a bit of development left in the last book, which I'm looking forward to seeing.


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## perman07 (Dec 14, 2011)

The problem with how Egwene has been handled has been that all these Aes Sedai who have decades and sometimes even centuries of experience with administration and politics are made too look like idiots to make this 19 year old girl appear superior.

With Rand, Mat and Perrin, I usually get the impression that they fiddle around to solve their problems while being surrounded by varying advice and input, and usually decide on the right solution. With her, it feels like she is always right, and all the women that surround her who should be unusually competent aren't even needed.


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## Cyphon (Dec 14, 2011)

perman07 said:


> The problem with how Egwene has been handled has been that all these Aes Sedai who have decades and sometimes even centuries of experience with administration and politics are made too look like idiots to make this 19 year old girl appear superior.



Honestly this is real to me. Just look around the real world. It is a pretty common thing to see elder people "stuck in their ways" and unable to adapt to changing circumstances and things like that. I don't really see how this is much different. People with so many years of being in power and being "right" all of the time get cocky and can be blinded by arrogance.

Just one example (and this isn't a direct comparison) would be those gamers recently who were able to solve that problem scientists haven't been able to solve for years. Shit like that just happens on occasion where people who may have no business being right or "smarter" end up that way.


Anyway, I did really like the Egwene stuff in the tower. Especially when she took that beating in the office.


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## perman07 (Dec 14, 2011)

Well, I sort of agree with you. Groups of people who should be competent can display incredible amounts of incompetence in reality too, no doubt about it.

Egwene's resistance within the tower was just awesome to me when I read it the first time. When I've reread it however, I'm struck by how the members of a political institution filled with ambitious members all cower in fear of a woman they don't have to fear that much. While it's believable that Aes Sedai can be stupid from time to time (every single human can be basically), that everyone of them is so consistently stupid stretches credulity however.

In reality, the problems institutions face are usually way more complicated than 1 leader acting grossly incompetent. Such incompetence is easy to counter by just getting rid of the leader by documenting said incompetence. More often I believe that problems are systemic in nature. All state institutions in every country in the west deal with the problem that they are meant to spend money and not make money, and that they would rather spend a little more money than they strictly need than not spend it all and having the government determine they don't need as much money. Basically, money wasted on bureaucracy is inevitable with our current systems of governance.

Meaning a lot of the world's seeming incompetence which we would like to blame individuals for (and which many people DO blame individuals for) are more examples of emergent inefficiency cause by underlying systemic issues.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 8, 2012)

Egwene's control of the White Tower was fucking ridiculous. As a bona fide member of the Egwene Hate Club, my views might be biased, but fuck she had no reason accomplishing what she did. Her power can't be explained, and the respect she garners from the other AS just seems implausible. 

I chalked it up to Rand being _so_ strongly ta'veren that he makes plot-no-jutsu happen to other characters too. She is not ta'veren, but Rand is so powerful that he makes the other characters around him ta'veren too.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2012)

The final book comes out this year right? Would be interesting if The Wheel of Time ended the same year the world ends 

Though I think I remember seeing it might not be out until 2013.


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## martryn (Jan 8, 2012)

Aes Sedai in general were mishandled throughout the series.  Bene Gesserit they were not.  And that's a shame, because when I read Eye of the World I honestly thought the Aes Sedai were going to be _anything but_ sniffling, conceited brats lacking the ability to function as a group or recognize the achievements of one another.  I was sorta hoping that they'd all be like Moiraine.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2012)

Women run on emotion more than logic. So expecting them to do what would make more sense just doesn't work.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 8, 2012)

martryn said:


> Aes Sedai in general were mishandled throughout the series.  Bene Gesserit they were not.  And that's a shame, because when I read Eye of the World I honestly thought the Aes Sedai were going to be _anything but_ sniffling, conceited brats lacking the ability to function as a group or recognize the achievements of one another.  I was sorta hoping that they'd all be like Moiraine.


Yeah, Moraine is definitely the best Aes'Sedai in the series, even before Nyneave. They were mishandled in the sense that I think they should have performed better as a unit and individually. But if Jordan was trying to make the point that male channelers are necessary for the Aes'Sedai to be balanced, I think he made his point.

The worst is that he modelled them after his wife . What a bitch she must be.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> The worst is that he modelled them after his wife . What a bitch she must be.





For some reason this reminded me of the Family Guy episode where Peter was makin Handiquacks and made the character "Bitch Duck" and it was Louis


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## bludvein (Jan 9, 2012)

On my first read through WoT, I disliked Egwene but didn't hate her. On every subsequent read through my opinion just becomes worse. 

On the flipside, I disliked Nyneave, but on subsequent read throughs my opinion sort of improved.

I think their personalities in the later books biased me. Nyneave becomes a much more mellow and likable character, while Egwene becomes Queen Bitch. Really, from the point she became Amyrlin she became even more arrogant and self-righteous than she ever believed Rand to be. The worst part is she never even recognizes most of her failings. It really comes across as "I am Amyrlin, therefore I am right by default." I couldn't stand it. Even her thoughts in her POV just serve to enhance this image. Evidently, introspection isn't something she does very often.

For added bonus points, things just seem to go her way in the end, for no discernible reason other than plot convenience. She is not ta'veren, so these ridiculous circumstances just don't fly with me, unless for some reason Rand needs her to be Amyrlin. Really, the people around her seem to become stupid when they are in the same room to make her look good by comparison. Her manipulations of the tower were easy to spot from a mile off, and these Aes Sedai with centuries of experience in this kind of thing fail hard. I had to laugh when Egwene maneuvered them into giving her control of Rand (and yes I laugh at the prospect of them doing anything significant to control him) because it was just so pathetic.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 10, 2012)

bludvein said:


> On my first read through WoT, I disliked Egwene but didn't hate her. On every subsequent read through my opinion just becomes worse.


Pretty much my opinion. Didn't really _truly_ hate her until the third read-through... And it just got worse.


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## Magus (Jan 11, 2012)

Egwene is deus ex machina incarnate.


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## Ishamael (Jan 11, 2012)

It's funny how Egwene is more ta'veren then any of the actual ta'veren. Not even Rand has so much good fortune come his way. After my second read through a couple months back I no longer bother with any of Egwene's POV's. Far and away the worst of the main characters.

And I'm going to echo that I expected a lot more from the Aes Sedai. During my first read of Eye of the World I thought that the majority of them would be much like Moiraine cunning, secretive, manipulative at times but woman who put the troubles of the world first and not their precious Tower. How wrong I was.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 13, 2012)

I thought Egwene was, until I remembered that Logain and Siuan can see taveren. And they saw nothing around Egg. It's insane to think that Rand is so strongly taveren that he can pull plot-no-jutsu for even that little shit Gawain (since Gawain is linked to Egwene).

Anyway, I can't remember, but once a Dream Spike is up, can the owner control who both enters and exits? I ask because it's a popular idea that Logain will remove it, but if Taim/Moridin are the only ones allowed to let people in, I don't see them allowing Logain to enter without their knowledge.


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## Magus (Jan 18, 2012)

I've started my WOT reread in preparation for AMOL and I've realized I've forgotten a lot of shit.

I'm currently on tDR, but I want to talk about tEofW. 

What is the Eye of the World? I've long been led to believe it was the pool of saiden the Green Man was 'protecting', but is that it? Earlier in the book there were messages from aiel and the like returning from the Blight speaking of the dark one blinding the Great Serpent, the Eye of the World. I guess my question then is if the wheel is eternity, and the Eye of the World is somehow part of the wheel, than why is the pool of saiden so important, since it was only filled after the breaking?


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## Nae'blis (Jan 18, 2012)

I can't remember what, if anything, Moraine said was important about the Eye. It was created _during_ the Breaking, not afterwards. But in the story it was the location of the dragon banner. It was a vast Well of untainted saidin. It can be assumed that the Aes'sedai of the Age of Legends thought that saidin would never be free of the taint, so they created the Well with enough saidin to reseal the DO prison. "Blinding the Eye" could effectively just mean preventing the Dragon from accessing that much pure saidin. If the DO can't be resealed = reforms world in own image. And if someone tried to reseal the DO with tainted saidin... well, anything could happen.

The Nym weren't made to gaurd the Eye, but he ended up protecting for the Dragon Reborn.


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## Gedatsu (Feb 16, 2012)

Memory of Light release date: 8 jan, 2013

link


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## masamune1 (Feb 16, 2012)

Gedatsu said:


> Memory of Light release date: 8 jan, 2013
> 
> link



Except maybe not really:





> Tor and Harriet have set the release date for A MEMORY OF LIGHT. Again. While I've been working on the book, this has happened a half dozen times, with varying levels of publicity surrounding the date.
> 
> This time we're saying January 8th. How likely is this one? Well, honestly, I don't know. Seems like it's the most firm of the lot. However, you've got to understand a couple of things.
> 
> ...


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## Nae'blis (Feb 19, 2012)

I love how Perrin realises something is wrong in the Black Tower since gateways don't work, says he will look into it, then doesn't bother to do so. But it will probably be more dangerous now in the hands of Taim than it was in Graendal's. If weaves work in tel'aran'rhiod, it's safe to assume wards work as well. Perrin or whoever won't be looking for it.


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## Ishamael (Feb 19, 2012)

So much for spring 2012. Oh well, another year won't hurt. 

He probably forgot about his investigation into the Black Tower as soon as he saw Faile


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## Nae'blis (Feb 19, 2012)

I don't really mind the wait if they actually tie up all the loose ends Jordan planned to finish in Mats post-apocalypse gaiden. Like, when Aviendha walked through the glass columns for the second and third time, she had those visions of her descendants future. Considering how much time was devoted to it...


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## Cyphon (Feb 19, 2012)

I really need to go through and read this series again. I have read each book only once and could not come close to remembering half of what I need to for the last book. 

It shouldn't be hard since I really enjoyed my first time through. I can definitely wait on this book since I am tied up with lots of other reading.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 19, 2012)

In a series like this, there is much you pick up on the second and third read-throughs.


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## Cyphon (Feb 19, 2012)

I am looking forward to collecting my thoughts and being able to (hopefully) open up some discussion points for everyone as refreshers as I read through it again. 

I remember when Sanderson went through and did reviews for each and every book on his site as he was reading through them. In a series so large I think that can be pretty helpful.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 19, 2012)

god, we need that in this thread.


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## Cyphon (Feb 19, 2012)

Maybe after the Dresden Files I will get started. I have other books I haven't read but I suppose they can be put off for now.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 19, 2012)

_The Dresdon Files_ is awesome too. I'm going to finish (and re-read) that, with some other series', while I wait.


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## martryn (Feb 20, 2012)

Meh, I can make do with reading chapter summaries and plot points on the various WoT wikis, encyclopedias, and forums, and any chapter that is supposedly important to development I might go back and reread.  I've done a few reads of the first several books of this series, and it'd be tough to try to read some of the later books again.  Stuff really did just drag on.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 20, 2012)

Skipping Elayne POV chapters cuts down on the cock & balls torture by 50%. I wouldn't mind if she died beginning of next book.


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## martryn (Feb 20, 2012)

> Skipping Elayne POV chapters cuts down on the cock & balls torture by 50%. I wouldn't mind if she died beginning of next book.



And Elayne was my favorite female character in Eye of the World...


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 22, 2012)

Yes, I, also, have often found that I am unable to recall events of previous books in this series, because of their extreme duration and the extended intervals between their releases, so I have been considering re-reading earlier books on the series to refresh my memory, and the the fact that the final book may not be released until next January shall provide me with ample time to do so.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 23, 2012)

It's impossible to remember everything. So much happens, and lots of small things that are hard to pick up on. Chapter summaries help in that regard.


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## martryn (Feb 23, 2012)

> It's impossible to remember everything. So much happens, and lots of small things that are hard to pick up on. Chapter summaries help in that regard.



All the fucking Aes Sedai start running together, too.  Those guys, and the random nobles from here and there and everywhere, and now the Sea Folk people.  I more or less lump the lot of them up into one character who happens to be very important and also everywhere.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 23, 2012)

I like to keep it simple for myself: the only Aes'Sedai worth remembering are the Powerpuff Girls, Moraine, Cadsuane, Suane, Elaida... pretty much it.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 23, 2012)

Verin wasn't important enough? 

Alviarin and Sheriam were pretty big characters too.


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## martryn (Feb 23, 2012)

> Verin wasn't important enough?



Easy to remember because she was like one of the first introduced and had a huge effect on the plot during the 4th book. 



> Alviarin and Sheriam were pretty big characters too.



One was a dark friend and the other one was.... also a dark friend?  And they were both Mistress of Novices?  Blue Ajah?


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## Sanity Check (Feb 23, 2012)

I stopped reading awhile ago.  

I think I figured out the ending 2+ years ago & haven't bothered reading since.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 23, 2012)

And  Verin too.

When Moridin made eleven chairs in the Ansaline Gardens, and all of Alviarin "I've been personally marked" etc, I though that she (and Taim) received a field promotion to Forsaken. After ToM... not so much.


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## Crowe (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm listening to this on my ipod and it's probably the fifth time I re-"read" this series. I've managed to go through 4 books in about 3 weeks and I'm on Fires of Heaven and I do know why I found this series so annoying. 

These women annoys me so much. 

*Nynaeve *- Stubborn, easy to anger and takes it out on people, rarely apologizes, acts like she has PMS 24/7 and expects to be treated like a queen when she herself acts like a bit... Oh and she is always about "I can handle my own" but how many times has she gotten in trouble because she went into something alone with Elayne? 

*Elayne *- Just simply annoying. She is at the part where she is trying to flirt with Tom even though he was her mothers lover and she just the day before told Nynaeve to "tell Rand I love him".

*Egwayne *- I'm at the part where they find out about Elaidas raise to power in their dream world and Egwayne "dreams up" two men who rip Nynaeves clothes open and hurts her till she cries and NOTHING is said about it. That is so very cruel and who is she to teach someone else a lesson when she herself is going around there without permission and without finishing her studies either. Nynaeve didn't even say anything about it while I think it's the most horrible act one can do to someone one call "friend". 

*Morraine *is the only one I actually can handle but she is annoying too with her fucking secrets, if she would just tell them things they wouldn't be paranoid about her 24/7.

Oh and *Avienda*, Rand should just throw her out of his area. It doesn't make sense that he has so much patience with her and her insults even though he likes her.

Robert Jordan is a good author but he does the same mistake as GRRM and ends up making his female characters too annoying. I really like Min, she's at least not one to try to bully everyone around and sit on some high horse like these other ones. I recall liking Nynaeve later on but Egwaynes whole "by my suffering, I shall heal the tower" later on is also something I didn't like. 

Oh and they say "Two River folks are stubborn" but so far EVERY character in the series been fairly stubborn.

--- / rant

I like the series though and I'm to date on them and read even those Brandon Sanderson have written, he is one of my new favorite authors, and I like the changes that happen later on and espescially in the latest book because its been long overdue. Dealing with 6 books of Rand being mishandled, going crazy, doing retarded stuff has been more than enough.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 4, 2012)

Downloaded the books into my Kindle but a little hesitant to start on them. It seems like a huge series, which is extremely intimidating and I'm afraid I'll get too caught up with it and forgo other books. Lame, but yeah.


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## martryn (Apr 4, 2012)

I went through the first three books in a week when I first started the series.  I thought the pacing was great and couldn't put the books down.  It's practically all I did that week.  With a massive series like this, you almost have to forsake other books until you've caught up.


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 7, 2012)

Covert art for _A Memory of Light_:
[sp][/sp]


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## Nae'blis (May 7, 2012)

Is that from the same artist? Because surprisingly it's not utter shit.


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 7, 2012)

No, Darrell K. Sweet passed away last December. This is done by Michael Whelan.


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## Nae'blis (May 7, 2012)

Obviously sorry that someone passed away, but it's good those embarrassing covers are up the shitter.


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## martryn (May 7, 2012)

That's actually kinda awesome.


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## Nae'blis (May 10, 2012)

I can't fucking believe the last book is only coming out next year. It better be awesome if he spends a year just editing.


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## Zen-aku (Jun 5, 2012)

so i'm near the end of the third book, i kinda like the series but i'm finding it really slow and so far Rand and Mat are irritating the fuck out of me. 

should i keep reading?


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## perman07 (Jun 5, 2012)

Zen-aku said:


> so i'm near the end of the third book, i kinda like the series but i'm finding it really slow and so far Rand and Mat are irritating the fuck out of me.
> 
> should i keep reading?


Definitely. They will keep being slow, though I seem to recall the middle of the series being less slow, though that may be a personal, subjective (and maybe wrong) opinion. I personally hold books 4-6 as maybe the best part of the series, so you definitely shouldn't quit yet.

As for Rand and Mat, they both start being awesome soon. Rand in book 4, Mat a bit later. Even Perrin becomes awesome, though I would say much later Sorry for spoiling this, however this is all taste, though I think a lot of Wheel of Time readers would agree with me


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## Zen-aku (Jun 5, 2012)

So far i like most of the characters except Rand and Mat, Perrin's thing with the wolves,was the thing that really got me to pay attention

and i like the three girls because their not bitching about their situation and are actually trying be productive.


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## perman07 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hehe, who is awesome, who is not will probably go up and down more than once for several characters in book series as large as WoT. At least I think it did. Hated Mat to begin with myself, think most do, but he becomes a fan favorite later on.


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## martryn (Jun 5, 2012)

I always liked Mat.  He got dicked really quick, but I stuck with him.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 5, 2012)

Mat starts fleshing out halfway through _the Great Hunt_. Good character, but just a step towards the person we see come_ the Dragon Reborn_ where he easily becomes arguably the best character in the series.


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## Ishamael (Jun 5, 2012)

He didn't get many perspectives through the first two books but his character really picks up after he escapes the tower in _Dragon Reborn_. From there on he's amazing.

The art on the cover is really nice but it just doesn't seem appropriate for the final book. Something like a battle scene would resonate better with the books tone. Its nice to finally see genuinely good art on a WoT cover.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 5, 2012)

I always like to think that it is the moment he wakes up and goes exploring. I think the chapters is "scouting and discoveries" or something.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 5, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Covert art for _A Memory of Light_:
> [sp][/sp]



Wow, what an awesome illustration! I presume that that is Rand, wielding _Callandor,_ but who are the two women standing behind him? And why did the artist deem them to be so important that he put them in the image, rather than Mat and Perrin, who are Rand's best friends?

Apart from that complaint, I am very excited for the conclusion of this epic fantasy series; I have been reading it for years, and I hope that the final book is a fitting finale for this grand tale. There are still numerous unresolved plot lines, and the most significant of which is defeating the Dark One, although I myself am more interested to see how the main protagonists deal with the Seanchan, and I still hope that they are dealt with before the final battle against the Dark One _(Tarmon Gai'don),_ because it would be too anti-climactic otherwise, in my mind.


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## EvilMoogle (Jun 5, 2012)

Don't read too much into the cover art.  They very rarely have anything to do with anything.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 5, 2012)

It's Moraine and Nyneave. 

And Rand linking with two women to use Callandor as it was intended to be used is pretty much how this series has set up the final struggle against the Dark One. There is a reason the Aelfinn said "give up half the light of the world to save the world". Mat/Perrin aren't going to be holding Rands hands or be cheerleaders, but will most likely be commanding armies of their own against the new dreadlords and the vast shadowspawn host.

The last book ended on the morning of the day Rand is going to travel to Shayol Ghul. The only people who haven't arrived at the Field of Merrilor are Mat/Moraine/Thom. Unless the Seanchan issue is dealt with by Rand in the first few chapters, or Mat somewhere down the line...


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 6, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> The last book ended on the morning of the day Rand is going to travel to Shayol Ghul. The only people who haven't arrived at the Field of Merrilor are Mat/Moraine/Thom. Unless the Seanchan issue is dealt with by Rand in the first few chapters, or Mat somewhere down the line...



Yes, I know that, but, as I said above, is that not anti-climatic, given that the Dark One has been portrayed as the main antagonistic force in the series since the beginning, while the Seanchan appeared later in the story? Did the authors not consider that when they wrote that into the story?


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## Cyphon (Jun 6, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Did the authors not consider that when they wrote that into the story?



Actually just one author, Robert Jordan. He left notes and his wife with information to help Sanderson along so I am sure he considered it.


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## Nimander (Jun 6, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Covert art for _A Memory of Light_:
> [sp][/sp]



Dear God, I CAME.  That is fucking amazing art. (and my new set I'm thinking)



Zen-aku said:


> so i'm near the end of the third book, i kinda like the series but i'm finding it really slow and so far Rand and Mat are irritating the fuck out of me.
> 
> should i keep reading?



Short answer: Yes.  

Long answer: FUCK yes.

You're still on Rand 1.0 and Mat 1.0, both of which are admittedly annoying.  Plus at this point in time Jordan had just realized that the story wasn't in fact going to be a trilogy after all, so he begins to put more effort into truly fleshing out the world and characters in Book 4.  You can tell that the attention paid to the story and the quality noticeably improve in _The Shadow Rising_

As far as the "1.0" thing, that's just my personal way of classifying the pivotal stages of the character's development, or where they "upgraded".  Rand goes all the way up to 4.0, and despite how annoying he can be at some moments as his character progresses, it's very good development.  Jordan, and eventually Sanderson, both did a very good job of showing how the stresses of Rand's duties and eventual destiny take a toll on him and change him as a person.  Trust me, it's worth sticking with his character just to read some of the shit that happens to him and that he does.

As for Mat, I'll just say that he's on my very short list of favorite protagonists of all time.  And as someone who's read hundreds, if not somewhere over 1,000 fantasy titles by now (not trying to brag if it sounds that way; I just fucking read a lot) that's saying something.  Mat only really has one major upgrade, but Mat 2.0 is pretty much the reason why WoT is one of my favorite series ever.  It's a good story, don't get me wrong.  But Mat makes it awesome for me.  



EvilMoogle said:


> Don't read too much into the cover art.  They very rarely have anything to do with anything.



All of the cover art so far has at least been obliquely related to the story, either by putting characters together in a certain setting or so forth.  But all that aside, that's just amazing art.  If I was picking up this story for the first time, and saw that on the cover, and saw that it was Book 14, I would start at the beginning of the series just to see what led up to that.


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## Banhammer (Jun 6, 2012)

I hear this series gets really crappy in the middle and you have to muddle through a lot before it goes back up with brandon sanderson


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## perman07 (Jun 6, 2012)

Banhammer said:


> I hear this series gets really crappy in the middle and you have to muddle through a lot before it goes back up with brandon sanderson


Book 10 is the great, big offender here. 7-9 to a lesser extent. The problem is basically that this series has many plot threads that have needed time devoted to them, and whether they were interesting or not didn't always affect how much attention they got. So you had to read some long-winded sections on the boring plot threads.

But I still think all the books are great, it's just Jordan tends to write very long, so if you have very little patience for long stories, you may get incredibly annoyed.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 6, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Actually just one author, Robert Jordan. He left notes and his wife with information to help Sanderson along so I am sure he considered it.



In that case, I need to re-phrase my question: did Jordan not realize that it would be anti-climactic for the heroes to fight the Dark One before fighting the Seanchan? This is especially true when A: the Dark One has been portrayed as the main antagonist in the series from the very beginning, while the Seanchan appeared later in the story; and B: the Dark One has been portrayed as the near-embodiment of evil in this series, while only some of the Seanchan are evil (some of them are actually fairly decent people). After fighting the embodiment of evil, what else is left for a story? Any future antagonists are certain to be less impressive and threatening. For example,
*Spoiler*: _Teen Titans Animated Series spoilers_ 



In season four of the _Teen Titans_ animated series, the heroes fight Trigon, who is protrayed as the embodiment of evil in that series, a threat to all existence, a demonic being of unimaginable power who sought to conquer the entire universe. The heroes ultimately defeated him, but the series lasted for one additional season, and the villains of that season, the Brotherhood of Evil, were not nearly as menacing as was Trigon, in my mind.


This series currently has a similar situation: how can the Seanchan possibly compare to the Dark One as antagonists in this story? I believe that it would simply not be dramatically appropriate to have them follow the Dark One. Does anyone else agree with me on this subject?


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## EvilMoogle (Jun 6, 2012)

They've pretty much established that there's a peace (of sorts) with the Seanchan for the "Last Battle."

If war breaks out with them again afterwards it won't be in the books (though it's pretty clear that Aviendha will avert this).


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## Ruby Moon (Jun 6, 2012)

Alright, I've finally gotten into the series and I've finished the first book. It has a very Tolkien-ish feel to it, but overall, I'm starting to like it. I can see why it's such an epic fantasy. I've requested the second book at my library.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 6, 2012)

It was a lot like the beginning of _the Belgariad_ as well. I guess that could extend until they enter the Stone of Tear and Rand wields Callandor. It's funny that the Sword of the Rivan King is pretty much Callandor, from crystal glow all the way down to godslaying.


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## Cyphon (Jun 6, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> This series currently has a similar situation: how can the Seanchan possibly compare to the Dark One as antagonists in this story? I believe that it would simply not be dramatically appropriate to have them follow the Dark One. Does anyone else agree with me on this subject?



There is no way they will follow and I agree with you that they shouldn't. They would surely be dealt with before the final battle begins. Whether they are destroyed or become ally's.


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## Ishamael (Jun 6, 2012)

I don't think it was ever Jordan's intention to fully resolve the conflict with the Seanchan with _A Memory of Light_. If you recall he planned on writing a book about Mat and Tuon set after the Final Battle. I think it would have been here were the conflict with Seanchan was originally supposed to be resolved. Now though with RJ dead they definitely need to come to some kind of resolution with the Seanchan because there won't be anymore books.

Jordan also stated at some point that _A Memory of Light_ wouldn't wrap up everything and that there would still be things that need to be answered and again he planned on resolving these in other novels but he probably didn't leave enough notes for Sanderson to work with so everything will need to be done in this final novel.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 7, 2012)

Ishamael said:


> I don't think it was ever Jordan's intention to fully resolve the conflict with the Seanchan with _A Memory of Light_. If you recall he planned on writing a book about Mat and Tuon set after the Final Battle. I think it would have been here were the conflict with Seanchan was originally supposed to be resolved. Now though with RJ dead they definitely need to come to some kind of resolution with the Seanchan because there won't be anymore books.
> 
> Jordan also stated at some point that _A Memory of Light_ wouldn't wrap up everything and that there would still be things that need to be answered and again he planned on resolving these in other novels but he probably didn't leave enough notes for Sanderson to work with so everything will need to be done in this final novel.



Yes, this fantasy universe is very massive and deeply-developed, so I wonder if the final book shall be able to properly resolve all remaining plot lines, or if there shall be a need for further publications after the final book?


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## masamune1 (Jun 7, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> In that case, I need to re-phrase my question: did Jordan not realize that it would be anti-climactic for the heroes to fight the Dark One before fighting the Seanchan? This is especially true when A: the Dark One has been portrayed as the main antagonist in the series from the very beginning, while the Seanchan appeared later in the story; and B: the Dark One has been portrayed as the near-embodiment of evil in this series, while only some of the Seanchan are evil (some of them are actually fairly decent people). After fighting the embodiment of evil, what else is left for a story? Any future antagonists are certain to be less impressive and threatening. For example,
> *Spoiler*: _Teen Titans Animated Series spoilers_
> 
> 
> ...



Scale and menace alone don't determine the quality of the plot. If the last series of _Teen Titans_ wasn't as well received, it wasn't down to the fact that they had fought Trigon in the series before. It was down to the way it was handled and the quality of the show- fact is, we _know_ that defeating Trigon isn't going to suddenly be the end of the Titan's superheroic career. The Brotherhood of Evil were dissastifying because they came out of nowhere with little buildup, changed the format and tone of the show somewhat clumsily (since Beast Boy treated them too seriously), and left unresolved plotlines hanging, like Slade. _That_ was the problem.

Defeating the Dark One not being the end is a different sort of issue, and you can't really compare the two. Its more in keeping with the Scourging of the Shire at the end of _LotR_, or better yet with its own themes- the Dark One will _never_ been defeated once and for all, because the Wheel turns and Ages come and go, and the Dragon will be reborn yet again in some to come to do this all over again. Leaving the Seanchan as a threat after Shaitan is beaten stays with that theme, and harks back a bit to the backstory of Lews Therin being driven mad after winning the war. Its an "evil endures / I'll be back" thing. The Seanchan are a symbolic reminder that problems will persist.


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## Nimander (Jun 7, 2012)

Ishamael said:


> I don't think it was ever Jordan's intention to fully resolve the conflict with the Seanchan with _A Memory of Light_. If you recall he planned on writing a book about Mat and Tuon set after the Final Battle. I think it would have been here were the conflict with Seanchan was originally supposed to be resolved. Now though with RJ dead they definitely need to come to some kind of resolution with the Seanchan because there won't be anymore books.
> 
> Jordan also stated at some point that _A Memory of Light_ wouldn't wrap up everything and that there would still be things that need to be answered and again he planned on resolving these in other novels but he probably didn't leave enough notes for Sanderson to work with so everything will need to be done in this final novel.



You beat me to this. You could tell that Jordan liked the whole Seanchan aspect of the story, and he definitely planned to expand on that part of the universe through Mat and Tuon's perspectives.  But then he got sick, and really had to focus on resolving the main story as best as he could in case the worst came about (which unfortunately did).  

Who knows?  He may have left enough notes on his intentions that Sanderson could write that novel, depending on fans' reception to the ending.  But I'm thinking it more likely that the Seanchan issue will be wrapped up in MoL, especially with Aviendha's vision in the last book.


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## EvilMoogle (Jun 7, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, this fantasy universe is very massive and deeply-developed, so I wonder if the final book shall be able to properly resolve all remaining plot lines, or if there shall be a need for further publications after the final book?


Jordan said some time ago that the final book would resolve the major plotlines but wouldn't be able to resolve every thread.

Presumably that's still the case.  Of course what qualifies as a "major plotline" is subject to debate.


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## martryn (Jun 7, 2012)

Like who killed Asmodeus.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 7, 2012)

martryn said:


> Like who killed Asmodeus.



Yes, that has been a great mystery in this series; Shaidar Haran's dialogue with Graendal at the end of _Towers of Midnight_ suggested that she may have killed Asmodean, but that scene was very vague, and I am not certain if she was sufficiently powerful to do so, as Graendal preferred to use guile and deception over direct force (of course, Asmodean was caught off-guard, but there are still too many variables and uncertain elements regarding his death for the readers to make any strong guesses as to the identity of his killer).


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## perman07 (Jun 7, 2012)

That's not a mystery anymore. The traditional encyclopedia (the one at the back of each book) in Towers of Midnight confirmed Graendal did it. The dialog also basically confirms it too with Shadar Haidan saying she was responsible for killing 3 Forsaken (Aran'gar, Mesaana, and one more that had to be Asmodean, no other Forsaken fit).

The only mystery is if she had any motivation behind it besides killing a traitor.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 7, 2012)

perman07 said:


> The only mystery is if she had any motivation behind it besides killing a traitor.



Who would the traitor be? Asmodean or Graendal?


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## martryn (Jun 7, 2012)

Ah!  So the mystery is solved at last.  Series can end today for all I care.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 7, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Who would the traitor be? Asmodean or Graendal?


Reading comprehension.



perman07 said:


> That's not a mystery anymore. The traditional encyclopedia (the one at the back of each book) in Towers of Midnight confirmed Graendal did it. The dialog also basically confirms it too with Shadar Haidan saying she was responsible for killing 3 Forsaken (Aran'gar, Mesaana, and one more that had to be Asmodean, no other Forsaken fit).
> 
> The only mystery is if she had any motivation behind it besides killing a traitor.


I know Jordan tried to deny that the serving woman in the hall wasn't one of the Forsaken, but Graendal was lurking the passages. The other Forsaken who were not part of Demandred's group planned on killing Rand together if he went after one of them.


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## perman07 (Jun 8, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Who would the traitor be? Asmodean or Graendal?


Asmodean of course. He went from Forsaken to serving the Dragon. I also said "she" in the sentence. Subject/object grammar already told you this


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 8, 2012)

perman07 said:


> Asmodean of course. He went from Forsaken to serving the Dragon.



It has been years since I read the books, but I thought that the other Forsaken allowed Asmodean to train Rand, so that Rand could become more powerful, and possibly turned to their side (not unlike the situations with both Anakin and Luke Skywalker in _Star Wars)?_


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## masamune1 (Jun 8, 2012)

Asmodean decided that it might be better to actually outright join Rand and help him win the war and defeat the other Forsaken.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 8, 2012)

It's not like he really had a choice. His options were: join Rand and hold onto that "tuft of grass on the side of a cliff", be killed by Rand, be killed by Lanfear, or be killed by the other Forsaken for being a turncoat (and because it would mean one less rival for them).


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 10, 2012)

masamune1 said:


> Asmodean decided that it might be better to actually outright join Rand and help him win the war and defeat the other Forsaken.





Nae'blis said:


> It's not like he really had a choice. His options were: join Rand and hold onto that "tuft of grass on the side of a cliff", be killed by Rand, be killed by Lanfear, or be killed by the other Forsaken for being a turncoat (and because it would mean one less rival for them).



Yes, I had forgotten those details, so I thank you very much for refreshing my memory.


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## Ruby Moon (Jul 7, 2012)

I slogged through the first book; I burned through the second in less than a week. 

I thought Selene was someone suspicious...like part of the Black Ajah. But she's worst than I thought. Rand is a pimp, through and through  I hope Mat and Perrin get some love in the next books.


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## martryn (Jul 7, 2012)

Mat gets a lot of love in Book 3, and Perrin gets a lot of love in Book 4.


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## Nimander (Jul 7, 2012)

Ruby Moon said:


> Rand is a pimp, through and through



And you're only on Book 2 so far?  Oh, my.


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## Ruby Moon (Jul 8, 2012)

I read through the prologue and a bit of chapter 5 of The Dragon Reborn at the bookstore yesterday. Poor Rand, but I'm glad that the spotlight is more on Perrin right now than the hero.


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## DocTerror (Jul 29, 2012)

Started this series 2 weeks ago and I'm up to Dragon Reborn now and absolutely love the series so far.


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## Magus (Jul 30, 2012)

Sanderson finished the 'last' draft the other day. So, a little editing and it's done. The final chapter to Robert Jordan's epic is almost in our hands.


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## Ruby Moon (Jul 31, 2012)

^ Hurrah. But the last book doesn't come out until next year, for which I am glad. I need time to savor all books in the Wheel of Time.


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## masamune1 (Aug 1, 2012)

> *Today I got up, and I did not have a Wheel of Time book to work on.*
> 
> I finished the final revision on A Memory of Light early in the morning Saturday, then sent it off to Team Jordan. And I was done. Team Jordan will handle the copyedits and proofreads; I might have a chime-in now and then on how a passage should be tweaked or how a continuity issue should be addressed, but essentially, my involvement as a writer in the Wheel of Time has come to an end.
> 
> ...



.


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## perman07 (Aug 1, 2012)

Hmm.. It may still be a long time before the books come out. 2 months at the earliest I would believe, but as late as Christmas may be possible (or maybe even later, what the hell do I know....).


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## EvilMoogle (Aug 1, 2012)

It will be later than Christmas.  January 2013 at the earliest.  Maybe June 2013.

They've already said expect a long editing process for the final book to make sure it's "right."


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## masamune1 (Aug 1, 2012)

The official release date is 8th January 2013. Moved forward from March since Sanderson finished earlier.


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## Ruby Moon (Aug 1, 2012)

^ Thanks for the news, man. I can't wait for my New Year's present.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 2, 2012)

Ruby Moon said:


> ^ Thanks for the news, man. I can't wait for my New Year's present.



Yes, I feel the same way about the book; reading it shall be an excellent way to start the new year, and I am very excited to see how Sanderson can finish one of the most epic medieval fantasy stories of modern times.


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## Ruby Moon (Aug 2, 2012)

While I'm waiting for book 4 of the Wheel of Time to arrive at my library as requested, I read the first two chapters of it at the bookstore a week ago. Perrin has Faile now; I'm just waiting for Mat to finally meet that Seanchan woman he's destined to fall in love with. Well, at least, that's what Egwene dreamed of in the previous book. Hm. I think Mat's my favorite character now.


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## perman07 (Aug 2, 2012)

Mat becomes cooler and cooler as the series progress. I reckon you will become more of a fan of him particularly in book 5.


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## Ruby Moon (Aug 2, 2012)

^ Good to know. All the characters have become special to me, but Mat is the best. I wonder if Egwene will become Green Ajah...


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## Nae'blis (Aug 3, 2012)

Egwene just becomes an even bigger cunt as the series progresses. Egwene didn't/doesn't really lean towards the Green Ajah regardless of what she claims. Yes, she has some instances that could be considered Green alignment, but before _Knife of Dreams _she definitely had a lot of the Blue spark in her. The problem being that the Aes'Sedai who have the most page time also happen to be caricatures of whatever Ajah they belong to. But the main characters are a bit moar flexible.


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## EvilMoogle (Aug 3, 2012)

See I disagree.  The last few books depictions of Egwene have been absolutely brilliant IMO.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 3, 2012)

She did flesh out more. And she did grow into a character who embodied almost every aspect of what it means to be an Aes'Sedai of that Age. I just didn't really agree with how the author made her out to be some sort of goddess while her enemies juggled idiot balls. Didn't really like her decision that death is better than captivity, even though every other main character pretty much denounced that view when they were faced with a similar choice. The author didn't even bother to call her on that either. Made her look heroic for it. I understand that Egwene is important to Rand winning the Last Battle, and that Rand might be so strongly ta'veren that he makes his friends (who aren't) appear ta'veren as well, but when the author seems to be doting on her as well it just gets annoying. Honestly kind of reminds me of how Jaina Solo is written in the EU.

I can't pinpoint the exact moment I lost all respect for her, but it was after the Eye when she wanted absolutely nothing to do with Rand because he could channel. "I love(d) you Rand... but you are a monster now so no hard feelings but fuck off". Definitely before the chapter when she met Nyneave in tel'aran'rhiod and was on some power trip.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Aug 3, 2012)

Wanted to read this but too many books in this series, settled for the Demon Cycle series instead


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## Nae'blis (Aug 3, 2012)

I settled for _Sweet Valley High_ instead.


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## Nimander (Aug 5, 2012)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> Wanted to read this but too many books in this series, settled for the Demon Cycle series instead



Well, this is (almost) the perfect time to pick up the series if you're still interested.  Don't know if you have a winter break or if you work, but picking up the series in mid-December in time for the final one to come out in January would let you go through the series in a straight shot.

Though I love the series myself, I do know it isn't for everyone.  So if you do decide to read it and find you don't like it past the fourth book, then the rest of the series definitely isn't for you.  The fourth book (IMO at least) is where the series really starts picking up and developing the complexity that makes it so liked by its fans.  So that's a pretty good benchmark I recommend to others that are just picking up the series.

If you do, hope you check back in.  It's always nice to hear the opinions of newer readers or fans of the series.  Kinda helps take me back to when I first picked it up eight or so years ago.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 7, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I have mixed emotions about Egwene's recent developments; first, I absolutely agree with her belief that slavery is worse than death; any of the chapters told from the perspective of a woman who is bound by an _a'dam_ should provide a very stark portrayal of how terrible the condition is. Second, I found her actions during the _Seanchan's_ attack on the White Tower to be very awesome; she remained calm and took charge with the others were panicking. Third, however, in direct contrast to that, I do not at all like how she has become nearly as arrogant and self-righteous as many other _Aes Sedai_ have been shown to be; why do nearly all people capable of channeling the one power seem to allow that power to go to their head? Plus, her victory over Mesaana seemed to be far too easy, in my mind; I was hoping for a much longer and more dramatic battle than what actually occurred. While I am am on that subject, why did Egwene attempt to capture Perrin in _Tel'Aran'Rhiod?_ Did she perceive him as an enemy, or was she convinced that he was now evil because of his association with Rand, the Dragon Reborn?


She tried to capture him to "keep him safe from the dangers or tel'aran'rhiod". I guess in her thinking binding a helpless Perrin in a corridor with Forsaken, Black Ajah, and balefire flying around was a good idea. It's been a while since I read that section, but I think the events went: Egwene is in the middle of a battle in a hallway > Perrin appears following the dreamspike > Egwene tries to bind him in flows of air in the very same corridor she is currently fending off attacks in > Perrin thinks them away > they get attacked in that same corridor a few seconds later > Perrin blocks the attacks with his mind.

Egwene could have attempted rescue. Just saying. I didn't see Egwene trying to kill herself when she was a damane. I guess her own life is moar precious than everyone elses.


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## Nae'blis (Aug 8, 2012)

I loved it when Rand channelled the True Power. I kind of hoped he would use it moar than once in that book. I know after _Veins of Gold_ he probably will never use it or doesn't have access to it any more (even though it was slightly suggested that he might still use it when he went to Far Madding). Funny that after Elayne/Aviendha/Min bonded him, one of them said something to the effect of "he has veins of gold". I like that call back to a previous book. 

After he took up the beggars staff I wondered why he didn't initiate that plan from the beginning with himself and five other ashaman. Together they could have destroyed Ebou Dar and moved on to all the other Seanchan encampments before anyone was the wiser. As much as I loved that book I really wanted Rand to grow some balls. He had access to the true power and the most powerful sa'angreal ever made (yes, access keys wouldn't work for the true power), yet he didn't bother to weave wards in the blight and invert them. And weaves made of the true power are only visible to the one who wove them so he could have made defences with that as well. Even if he felt channeling near the blight would attract unwanted attention, he could have destroyed every Waygate or wove the same weaves he used in Shadar Logoth to destroy every shadowspawn which tried to cross. Camelyn would be sleeping safely now if he did.


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## Bergelmir (Aug 11, 2012)

So was it ever revealed whether the Red Ajah were actually prompting male channelers to declare themselves the Dragon? Its been years since I've read the series, but I remember Logain telling the rebel Aes Sedai that he was manipulated by Red sisters. But I don't remember if anything came of that. Did it just end up being the Black Ajah mucking about?


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## Nae'blis (Sep 3, 2012)

^ I don't remember it ever being confirmed. The story was made up by Siuan for the most part, and it might be coincidence that Ishamael mentioned the Tower controlling most false Dragons including Logain. The only way I see this as a possibility is if it involves more Black Ajah shenanigans like the Vileness after the Aiel War. The Black Ajah manipulated certain Red sisters mercilessly to meet their ends, and some of the key players (Galina, etc) are still around.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 3, 2012)

Ah well, I suppose that isn't a terribly important detail in the long run of things.

And damn, Galina is sill alive?  I'd heard that Perrin had wiped out the Shaido in the Sanderson books. Was kinda hoping Faile went all stabby on Galina.


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## Drizzt (Sep 3, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> I loved it when Rand channelled the True Power. I kind of hoped he would use it moar than once in that book. I know after _Veins of Gold_ he probably will never use it or doesn't have access to it any more (even though it was slightly suggested that he might still use it when he went to Far Madding). Funny that after Elayne/Aviendha/Min bonded him, one of them said something to the effect of "he has veins of gold". I like that call back to a previous book.
> 
> After he took up the beggars staff I wondered why he didn't initiate that plan from the beginning with himself and five other ashaman. Together they could have destroyed Ebou Dar and moved on to all the other Seanchan encampments before anyone was the wiser. As much as I loved that book I really wanted Rand to grow some balls. He had access to the true power and the most powerful sa'angreal ever made (yes, access keys wouldn't work for the true power), yet he didn't bother to weave wards in the blight and invert them. And weaves made of the true power are only visible to the one who wove them so he could have made defences with that as well. Even if he felt channeling near the blight would attract unwanted attention, he could have destroyed every Waygate or wove the same weaves he used in Shadar Logoth to destroy every shadowspawn which tried to cross. Camelyn would be sleeping safely now if he did.



Then you are missing the point of the chapter and development that was occurring to Rand. Rand was going to balefire Ebou Dar with the Sa'angreal and that would've lead to doing what the Dark One wanted - disrupting the pattern - possibly destroying it. You should notice that Ebou Dar was a part of Order and Peace - in contrast - the administration of his handing with his own cities. It would've led Rand to become broken and converted to Dark One's own. I believe there was a chapter that had the POV of Graendal, in which, before they turned - they did something so horrid that it broke them. And Rand had he done it - he would've been overcome with darkness and the world would have been doom. 

Secondly, if he had done that - he would've worn himself out - he even admits that his battle is to face the dark one while everyone else fight. Rand cannot fight and destroy the shadowspawns - he had to conserve his energy to fight the dark one. 




Bergelmir said:


> Ah well, I suppose that isn't a terribly important detail in the long run of things.
> 
> And damn, Galina is sill alive?  I'd heard that Perrin had wiped out the Shaido in the Sanderson books. Was kinda hoping Faile went all stabby on Galina.



I believe it was in the Knife of Dreams that Perrin destroyed the Shaido and that was Robert Jordan's last fully written book. As to Galina - she survived as a broken woman - Lina forever to serve the Shaido Wise woman, Thera. Thera made Galina swear on the oath rod that she could never touch the oath rod as long as she live.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 3, 2012)

Drizzt said:


> I believe it was in the *Knife of Dreams* that Perrin destroyed the Shaido and that was Robert Jordan's last fully written book. As to Galina - she survived as a broken woman - Lina forever to serve the Shaido Wise woman, Thera. Thera made Galina swear on the oath rod that she could never touch the oath rod as long as she live.


My bad. The furthest I've read is Crossroads of Twilight so far.


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## perman07 (Sep 4, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> My bad. The furthest I've read is Crossroads of Twilight so far.


Hehe, I wouldn't dare touch a forum about a series unless I was current. I'm terrified of spoilers.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm okay with spoilers. And I'm doing a re-read of the whole series in anticipation of A Memory of Light anyways.

I just finished The Shadow Rising, and man, I'd forgotten how much I loved the Rand-in-the-Waste sequence.


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## martryn (Sep 4, 2012)

Shadow Rising is my favorite book in the series.  All three major characters got some love, and Egwene was kept in check. I think just the Elayne and Nynaeve shit annoyed me in that book, but that might have been the one where they hung out with Thom and Julian the entire book, and that was the most bearable I'd have found either of them in the series.


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## perman07 (Sep 4, 2012)

My favorite one is Lord of chaos. Rand continuously being arrogant to Aes Sedai in the negotiations, the best action parts of the series in Dumai's well, and the ending with Rand making the Aes Sedai bow help make it my favorite book.

4-6 are the best parts of the series I think.


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## martryn (Sep 4, 2012)

I can agree with that.  4-6 were extremely strong.  It's 7-10 that waned.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 4, 2012)

perman07 said:


> My favorite one is Lord of chaos. Rand continuously being arrogant to Aes Sedai in the negotiations, the best action parts of the series in Dumai's well, and the ending with Rand making the Aes Sedai bow help make it my favorite book.
> 
> 4-6 are the best parts of the series I think.



Yeah, the ending to Lord of Chaos was great. I loved it when the Asha'man appear to save Rand near the end, and just unleash havoc. They're definitely one of my favourite additions to the series.



martryn said:


> Shadow Rising is my favorite book in the series.  All three major characters got some love, and Egwene was kept in check. I* think just the Elayne and Nynaeve shit annoyed me in that book*, but that might have been the one where they hung out with Thom and Julian the entire book, and that was the most bearable I'd have found either of them in the series.


Well, it is Nynaeve. One of the most annoying characters in the series, imo. Most of the time, I have to restrain myself from skimming over her bits in the books.

Perrin's story is my favourite of the book. But then he is my favourite character of the series, as well.


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## martryn (Sep 5, 2012)

> Well, it is Nynaeve. One of the most annoying characters in the series, imo. Most of the time, I have to restrain myself from skimming over her bits in the books.



One of the most irritating characters in all of fiction.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 6, 2012)

A Memory of Light: Chapter 11 (Excerpt)
[sp]Bloody Prince of Bloody Ravens! [/sp]

January 8 can't come any sooner.


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## martryn (Sep 6, 2012)

Will not read material until the book comes out.  Am ok with being spoiled.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 6, 2012)

Aaaargh, I couldn't resist a peek. And ended up reading the whole thing. Sanderson has a pretty nice handle of Mat. And Mat's lost his eye finally! It'll be interesting to see how that happened.


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## DemonDragonJ (Sep 7, 2012)

For the moment, I shall resist reading that excerpt, as I do not wish to be spoiled, at all; I have often considered re-reading the previous books in the series, to refresh my memory, but there simply are too many books, they are too long, and I do not have the spare time to dedicate to re-reading them.

The previous book, _Towers of Midnight,_ ended with Caemlyn being attacked by massive hordes of Trollocs, who entered with through a gateway that was hidden near the city, so does anyone here believe that they city is doomed, or shall its inhabitants be able to defend it? And if Mat had read Verin Mathwin's letter earlier, might the heroes have been able to prevent that invasion?


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## perman07 (Sep 7, 2012)

Won't read it either, and I am NOT fine with spoilers, so please don't post them without spoilertags.


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## EvilMoogle (Sep 7, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> The previous book, _Towers of Midnight,_ ended with Caemlyn being attacked by massive hordes of Trollocs, who entered with through a gateway that was hidden near the city, so does anyone here believe that they city is doomed, or shall its inhabitants be able to defend it? And if Mat had read Verin Mathwin's letter earlier, might the heroes have been able to prevent that invasion?


I would think they'll fight it off.  Caemlyn's probably in the best position of any of the major cities.

Off the top of my head it has:
- A powerful Aes Sedai as queen
- Standing armies still in position from the succession war
- The armies of the North still nearby looking for Rand
- The Black Tower (assuming they'd work _for_ the defense)

It's also close to all of Rand's cities so he should be able to provide aid there as well.

The only real question is how much aid can they be given with the last battle starting.  I'd still speculate that this will be a minor delay for them so that Elayne can arrive late to the last battle (probably after Rand's "death").


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## Nae'blis (Sep 7, 2012)

The Borderlanders left Far Madding and are with Rand at the Field of Merrilor. IIRC Rand is actually with their camp sleeping in his tel'aran'rhiod POV chapter. As for the Black Tower... the dreamspike is still up. The only ones who can leave are those who Moridin and Taim decide can leave. They won't be any help in defending Caemlyn.

Mat lost his eye as part of the bargain with the Eelfinn. "lose half the light of the world to save the world".

I don't remember if Elayne has already brought her armies to the Field of Merrilor yet. Even if she has I know she didn't take every woman who can channel with her, so gateways can be made to bring them back. Lets hope she is still in Andor because Caemlyn will only have the Band of the Red Hand to defend it, without Mat. It's funny because Egwene was writing a letter to the king of Tear (forgot his name) telling him to join her. And she comments to herself that if the Seanchan attack Tear when the armies are gone even having gateways will not bring them back in time to save the city.


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## EvilMoogle (Sep 7, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> The Borderlanders left Far Madding and are with Rand at the Field of Merrilor.


Ah, I had forgotten about that.



Nae'blis said:


> As for the Black Tower... the dreamspike is still up. The only ones who can leave are those who Moridin and Taim decide can leave. They won't be any help in defending Caemlyn.


That's what Logain's for 

Once he overthrows Taim he takes over the tower and leads them to glory.

Looking at  we have:
The Queen's Guard (~10k)
The Caemlyn Loyal Houses (Elayne's and her supporters) (~40k)
The Caemlyn Rebel Houses (Elayne's opponents) (~60k)
The Legion of the Dragon (~70k)
The Band of the Red Hand (-Mat) (~23k + any recruits)
Asha'man (~600, how many are Darkfriends is highly debatable)

The main problem is no real generals to command them.  But between Elayne and Logain they should be poised to shut down the gateway.  Likely they'll lose a lot of forces cleaning up though.

(Assuming Messiah-Rand doesn't just show up to clean everything up  )


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## Nae'blis (Sep 11, 2012)

I love how no one talks to each other to share information that is vital. I mean, Rand/Perrin know that shadowspawn can only travel using the Ways, yet neither of them bothers to tell their allies that Waygates need to be destroyed. Even weaving the inverted ward Rand used for the Shadar Logoth Waygate would have been sensible to do in the major cities. 

It will be interesting to see if Logain can somehow circumvent the dreamspike. There hasn't been anything to indicate that he even knows what tel'aran'rhiod is let alone how to enter it. I think Naeff will find Logain.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 11, 2012)

To be fair, if people in Randland actually trusted each other and shared information, the series would be half as long because so much drama would be cut out.


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## EvilMoogle (Sep 11, 2012)

Someone speculated at one point that Verrin's letter said something to the effect of "this is a letter, you use it to tell people who aren't nearby things you know.  Now stop reading and start writing!"


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## Nae'blis (Sep 11, 2012)

yeah

Verin is no better though. Seriously, the only time she spent with Mat is when he was unconscious, suddenly she knows exactly what he will do in certain situations? It is understandable though why she wrote the letter, being Black Ajah and the restrictions for betraying them. Egwene said something to the effect of "Siuan being secretive is what screwed her over, maybe I need to stop being so secretive with my allies as well", then next sentence she said "oh the Amyrlin needs to be secretive so that she has authority, never mind". It's like these people have learned nothing in thirteen books.


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## DocTerror (Sep 12, 2012)

I'm about to finish Lord of Chaos and man I am loving this series and can't wait to catch up with the rest of the books. I'm trying not to read spoilers here but its hard lol.


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## Ruby Moon (Sep 13, 2012)

It took me a while to get The Shadow Rising, and I got really sick for a few weeks, but book 4 kept me busy. Crowning Moment of Awesome for me? When the Wise One Melaine spoke to Moiraine without any sort of fearful awe or reverance, and even disdained the White Tower's way of training females. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



' "She can be very strong if she is trained properly", Moiraine replied. "As strong as Egwene will be. In the Tower, she can reach that strength." '
' "We can teach her as well, Aes Sedai." Melaine's voice was smooth enough, but contempt tinged her unwavering green-eyed stare. "Better. I have spoken with Aes Sedai. You coddle women in the Tower. The Three-Fold Land is no place for coddling. Aviendha will learn what she can do while you would still have her playing games." '


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## Cyphon (Sep 13, 2012)

Going on the journey for the 2nd time ever starting today. I hope this will be enough time for me to read it all before January. Might get lazy along the way.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 13, 2012)

Just skip Elayne chapters. They are almost completely useless even though they take up a ridiculously large portion of books 6-11. Somehow she managed to have top-three POV counts spanning those five books even though nothing she did had anything to do with the last battle. I don't think she believes the shadow exists.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 13, 2012)

That reminds me, Elayne has rediscovered how to make ter'angreals, right? Has she made anything interesting or useful yet?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 13, 2012)

Bergelmir said:


> That reminds me, Elayne has rediscovered how to make ter'angreals, right? Has she made anything interesting or useful yet?


If memory serves, she has only copied Mat's foxhead medallion and the dream ring.


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## EvilMoogle (Sep 13, 2012)

I thought she made a couple new things too, but just at "trinket" level power.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Sep 13, 2012)

Durr, she also copies an _a'dam_ and modifies the design.


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## Bergelmir (Sep 13, 2012)

Ah well, I was hoping that ability would result in some nifty ter'angreal.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 14, 2012)

Have no worries, the supergirls aren't done accomplishing feats they have no business accomplishing. Elayne hasn't made a perfect copy of the ter'angreal she tried, except for maybe the a'dam.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 16, 2012)

So when I was reading _Veins of Gold_ I got the impression that Rand didn't just remember Lews Therin's life but also every other time his soul was reincarnated as the Dragon. Along the lines of what Ishamael said earlier on in the books and Moridin said when Rand talked to him in his dream. Moridin seems to remember past lives as well beyond the Second Age. Rand also says something peculiar before the meeting the Borderlanders, "I feel more like myself now than I ever did as Lews Therin, if that makes any sense". I kind of want to interpret that as Rand is closer in personality to his other reincarnations than Lews Therin was. Is this generally accepted as what was going on in _Veins of Gold_? That he remembers every reincarnation of the Dragon? They might not all be as lucid as Lews Therin or the way Mat remembers the lives of the men who entered that ter'angreal. It would also make sense as to why he has three lovers with completely different personalities.


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## perman07 (Sep 16, 2012)

^I think the general consensus is he has a recollection left kind of like what the women who went through the rings in Rhuidenan have. A sense of them, but since there are too many lives to remember them all, not distinct memories.

We didn't receive any proper Rand chapters where we heard what he was thinking in Towers of midnight (except at the end where Lanfear approached him in his dreams), but we heard him say to Egwene in the Tower that he remembered all of Lews Therin's life. He has mentioned nothing of previous lives.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 18, 2012)

I thought that, just not as fleeting as the ter'angreal remembrances but still not as clear as he remembers Lews Therin since that was his last reincarnation. Moridin seems to remember, and their souls are intertwined.


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## ryz (Sep 20, 2012)

aMoL Prologue “By Grace and Banners Fallen”  is available online for $2.99

It's around ~75 pages, according to what I read on reddit.
----
And apparently,


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## DemonDragonJ (Sep 20, 2012)

What role shall Lanfear play in the final book? Her brief appearance at the end of _Towers of Midnight_ suggests that she was grief-stricken and not as enthusiastic about supporting the Dark One any longer (unless that was a very skilled deception), so I wonder if she shall assist Rand, whose past life she once loved, or remain with the Dark One? I myself am imagining her making a noble sacrifice at a moment of dramatic climax, providing Rand with the opportunity and motivation that he needs to defeat the enemy (most likely Moridin). That would be very awesome, in my mind.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 20, 2012)

It feels like a trap to me. We know Moridin/Rand shield their dreams, but are able to enter each others dreams because of the balefire connection. There is a way to force oneself into another persons shielded dreams but the dreamer would be aware of the intrusion. But it also seems that Cyndane (or more likely Moridin) was able to change what Rand was dreaming about entirely. The cour'souvra allows Moridin complete control over Cyndane, and considering she was given one last chance to get to Rand...


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## Cyphon (Sep 25, 2012)

So I finished The Eye of the World. It has been so long since I read it that it almost feels like the first time again. What this book feels like to me after reading LotR for the first time not long ago, is LotR done right. You can definitely see similar elements from Jordan but his was far more interesting and appealing IMO.

I really liked how the story started and lead into the action pretty quickly while also taking enough time to really show you the Two Rivers before all of that happened. Perfect execution in the pacing of the early parts IMO. I also think this book did a really good job of dumping so much different information on you without making it too much. Maybe it is because this is my 2nd time through but it didn't overwhelm me taking in all of the information. It also helps having the encyclopedia in the back of the book. 

One thing I found myself torn on was the characters. I understand they are supposed to fit a certain mold but it is so different than how I am and how we are living today that it makes me a hate a lot of how they behave. The guys acting like pussies towards the women, Perrin shying away from wolf powers (fuckin awesome) etc.....So I feel they were well written for what they were supposed to be but I couldn't relate.

I like a lot of the powers/magic system/whatever you want to call it. Min visions, wolf powers, the green man and the one power etc. I thought all of it was interesting and fun to see in action. I also like a lot of the different groups. Tinkers and Ogier come to mind. 

Honestly not much for me to complain about in this book. I thought there were just a couple of times it felt a little too slow when they were travelling (LotR anyone?) but other than that I can't wait to keep reading.


Favorite characters in this book:

Thom, Elyas and Master Gill......I think these would be my 3 favorites. More that I like but yeah.

Favorite moments:

- Tam fighting trollocs early on. That whole sequence.

- Master Gill standing up to the Whitecloaks in his in.

- Lan and Nynaeves brief convo late in the book.


I know I am missing some things and overlooking others but it is a lot to take in and put on paper.

Overall I would give this one an 8.5-9/10


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## martryn (Sep 26, 2012)

My favorite moments in Eye of the World were Mat's speaking of the old tongue while charging the trollocs and Rand with his heron marked blade in front of the Queen of Andor.


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## EvilMoogle (Sep 26, 2012)

Rand and the Queen is one of my favorites as well.  The whole sequence from Rand breaking in through his exit is great.


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## Cyphon (Sep 26, 2012)

martryn said:


> My favorite moments in Eye of the World were Mat's speaking of the old tongue while charging the trollocs and Rand with his heron marked blade in front of the Queen of Andor.



Forgot about Rand and the queen. I liked that whole sequence starting with falling off of the wall. 

Like I said, I probably forgot some things.


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## perman07 (Sep 26, 2012)

I remember the first time I read the first book on a vacation. And the book finishes with Moraine saying "The Dragon is reborn". I got major chills at that moment and just thought to myself "Fuck! Where is book nr. 2?!". I just thought that ending was so awesome, and such a good set-up for the next book.

Since then I've read how someone said it was obvious he was the Dragon reborn, but I honestly didn't make the connection I just thought that was such an awesome moment.


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## Nae'blis (Sep 26, 2012)

^ The author didn't even attempt to disguise that this story is about Rand. Felt like I was reading the beginning of the Belgariad... not that that is a bad thing, just way obvious.

My favourite has to be when they arrive in Shienar and Lan tells the rest to pull the hood of their cloaks back and show their faces. Mat, being a smart ass, says "are they all that good looking?". Also just before they leave Emonds Field and are in the barn, from the moment Thom jumps down from the hayloft until he says "there is no need for that; I am not a cheese for slicing". 





martryn said:


> My favorite moments ... Rand with his heron marked blade in front of the Queen of Andor.


I loved that part as well, when Elaida starts talking and everyone tenses. Actually sometimes whenever I re-read _Eye of the World_ I just read the Rand/Mat chapters.


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## Cyphon (Sep 26, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> My favourite has to be when they arrive in Shienar and Lan tells the rest to pull the hood of their cloaks back and show their faces. Mat, being a smart ass, says "are they all that good looking?".



Another good choice. 


And you know, I was reading Sanderson talk about the books and he made a really good point about Nynaeve. She gets a lot of hate but if you consider what she actually did in the first books she is a bad ass chick. She managed on her own to travel where they barely got as a team. Granted, she didn't have a target on her back but it is still impressive and shows her dedication and such. I still don't like her but there you have it.


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## Cyphon (Oct 2, 2012)

Finished _The Great Hunt_. 

A lot of the way through the early parts of this book I was thinking about how it wasn't as good as the first. Then shit got real. It wasn't that it was bad early on but I didn't have the same excitement I did in the early parts of book 1. There was so much I liked about this book the further it went on.

- Probably my favorite thing (overall) of this entire book we Perrin. He started to accept his powers, he seemed like the wisest character at times and he actually grew a set and just did his thing. He even had one of my favorite scenes when he actually picked up Leane and moved her aside. He was also easily my favorite character in this book.

- I also liked how Jordan did so much with Rand. So many conflicts going on in his mind and coming out in the physical. There was just so much to his character. That isn't to say I liked how his personality was but just what was going on was crazy. His viewpoints also had some of the best scenes. His brief run in with Fains group where he stole the horn back was cool and we got a good glimpse of his skills improving. His meeting with the Amyrlin early on and how Lan gave him some quick teaching. The whole end sequence where he fought Turak and later the horn was blown and he had his fight. And also another great part I don't want to forget is when he saw all of the different lives he could have had and it all ending with the "I win again" line. So much good happening around Rand in this book. I even liked the Ingtar reveal a lot.

- Nynaeve had me torn once again. Don't like her personality much in the long run but the woman is a boss. Knocking the Amyrlin back, escaping the Seanchan and then taking care of business with her plan and everything. 

- Lastly I will say that I liked our brief glimpses of the Aiel. Gave us a lot to be excited about with them. Especially when the one dude stood down the whole group. 


Favorite character: Perrin with ease.

Favorite scenes: So many to choose....Probably just say the entire sequence in Falme. Matt blowing the horn and having the legends show up, Rands fight and the soldiers bowing at the end. Especially what Uno said and even Masema laying his sword down. Shit was awesome.

I would give the book a 9 or 9.5 overall.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 3, 2012)

_The Great Hunt_ had good parts. The parts I liked before the hunt actually left Fal Dara was when Lan was telling Rand how to act in front of Siuan. Also the scene where Rand finds Mat/Perrin/Loial dicing with some of the other men. It was pretty cool because that is the first time I remember Mat referencing his luck at dice. He said he always won more than he lost, but that scene is where he wins far more often than he loses. I think his exact words where something to the effect of "I can hardly touch them without winning". Good book.

Speaking of the Great Hunt, there was one niggling thing Moraine said that I can't quite make sense of. So she says that no known force could break cuendillar, and that even the one power used against it only makes it stronger... She may even have said that in the same sentence. If it is indestructible how does it become stronger? It's not like any of them even know what the true power is.


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## Cyphon (Oct 3, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> If it is indestructible how does it become stronger? It's not like any of them even know what the true power is.



Well......3 of them broke by the time this book was finished so clearly they aren't indestructible. They are just really really durable. My guess is that using the OP against them may make them stronger but only by negligible amounts. They are supposed to be close to indestructible so getting even more durable has to be pretty hard to do.

At least that would be my guess based on what happened and was said.


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## Bergelmir (Oct 3, 2012)

To be fair, the seals were made using saidin, right? I've always assumed the corruption on saidin is what is causing the seals to deteriorate. Kinda like how the Ways got so messed up because they were constructed with saidin. (Although, if the True Power can break cuellindar, then the Dark One could just be breaking the seals from inside the prison.)

And when cuellindar is described as indestructible, its only within the character's understanding. So the One Power strengthening it isn't contradictory; it just means they're crazy tough, like Cyphon said. Also, cuellindar is just iron with a weave on it, right? Could it be undone with a specialized Delving or unweaving?


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## perman07 (Oct 3, 2012)

I think this exact topic was touched on indirectly by Graendal in the last book. She was thinking about the True Power, which has been implied to actually be the Dark one (for instance when Rand first wielded it, Lews Therin said the line "It's HIM" about the True power, and when Lanfear wanted a new power source and opened that globe, she let out the Dark one). Anyways, she thought this:

"The Great Lord’s essence forced the Pattern, straining it and leaving it scarred. 
Even  something the Creator had designed to be eternal could be unraveled  using the Dark One’s energies.  It bespoke an eternal truth--something  as close to being sacred as Graendal was willing to accept.  Whatever  the Creator could build, the Dark One could destroy."

Which probably applies to the seals as well.


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## Cyphon (Oct 11, 2012)

Finished with The Dragon Reborn. 

I wanna say it is my least favorite of the 3 but I am not so sure. Each book so far has just had quite a few great events and been generally enjoyable to read throughout. I think this one just had the most "down" moments for me of any book. 

So some events I liked:

- The early battle Perrin and them had with the Trollocs and Mydrall in the mountains. I thought it was awesome how the wolves came rolling in and they handled business. I also liked when Perrin eyed down Uno when he wanted to collect the furs. Good stuff.

- I liked the part where the prophecy was mentioned and said "he shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf". Obviously reading it for the first time would mean nothing but knowing what it represents later on it really was a great line of prophecy. Considering what we know of the Aiel and Tinkers and all that.

- Matt's perspective and development overall. I guess this is the book where I really started liking Matt before and it is the same now. Maybe the same for most if I had to guess. The defining moment for when it started was his fight with Galad and Gawyn and how he carried himself. He tends to be arrogant while being scared or shaky on the inside. Interesting mix IMO. 

- Perrin freeing the Aielmen and killing some Whitecloaks was also a good scene. I still don't like how Perrin is fighting his wolf powers. I get that he is scared of losing himself but it seems to awesome to be able to converse with wolves. We also got introduced to the Shadowbrothers which seem pretty fierce. I thought Moraine took them out way too easily for all of the build up to the moment. Possibly Perrins best moment though was when he got the hammer and worked at the shop. It was the start of his battle between axe and hammer and everything that comes with it. 

- I liked how Rand was handled in this book. I don't like when every bit of focus is on one person and I thought there was just enough of Rand her to give us an idea of just how fucked up his situation is. Not trusting anyone, keeping to himself, constantly fighting and being on edge. We didn't need beaten over the head with it and we weren't. Plus he had the best line of the book. He grabs Callandor, rips a hole in reality and says "I am the hunter now". Fuckin right. 


Not a big Moraine fan but I thought she was especially cold and bitchy in this book at times. 

All in all not many complaints for me.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 11, 2012)

Why is Tuon called the "Daughter of the Nine Moons?" The world in which this story is set has only one moon, to the best of my knowledge, so that title must have some other, figurative, meaning. Are the "nine moons" a symbol or metaphor of some type?

And does the continent on which the story is set have a name? The continent of Seanchan has a name, but I always refer to the other continent as simply "the mainland," since I do not know if it has any other name.


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## Ruby Moon (Oct 12, 2012)

Reading the fifth book of the Wheel of Time now. I love the way the Wise Ones treat Moiraine. While Rand is something of a whiny little depressant, I do understand why he's acting the way he is. Everyone is out to get him - to use him, abuse him, kill him. Even his friends are afraid of him. The most helpful one in the group, Moiraine of the Blue Ajah, in the end, is just using him, even if she's helping him. 

Mat's hilarious. He's my favorite character. Too bad he's just as ta'averen as Rand and Perrin, if not as powerful as Rand. All Mat wants is to drink, party and have fun with the ladies. Perfectly typical teenage male. Of course he never wanted to be a hero. Now, I'm just waiting until he meets his future wife, the Daughter of the Nine Moons, Tuon.


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## perman07 (Oct 12, 2012)

^Hehe, you've gotten spoiled. You shouldn't know that name yet. That's why I'm so paranoid whenever reading or watching a piece of fiction that I never ever visit any threads or boards before I'm up to date.


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## Ruby Moon (Oct 12, 2012)

^ Now that you mention it...

I accidently looked on the tvtropes page and found Tuon's name listed. Before that, it was obvious where Mat's love life was headed when he kept asking about the "Daughter of the Nine Moons". An example of Be Careful What You Wish For. 

@DemonDragonJ: Tuon is the daughter of the Empress of the Seanchan Empire. The "Daughter of the Nine Moons" is the title given to the heir.


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## martryn (Oct 12, 2012)

I bet there are like nine mountains, or nine provinces or something in Seanchan land.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 12, 2012)

perman07 said:


> ^Hehe, you've gotten spoiled. You shouldn't know that name yet. That's why I'm so paranoid whenever reading or watching a piece of fiction that I never ever visit any threads or boards before I'm up to date.



Yes, that has happened to me on more than one occasion, so I now am extremely cautious whenever I begin to follow a new series. For example, when I was following _Dragon Ball_ for the first time, I happened to learn on the internet that Gohan married Videl, the daughter of Mr. Satan, before that part of the story had even been shown in the United States, as the series had already ended in Japan years before that, thus ruining that surprise for me.


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## Nimander (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm so fucking ready for this last book to come out.  As I've gotten older, I've come to discover that it's the rare fantasy author or series that can keep me engaged and write a good enough story that I actually enjoy it fully.  Jordan is high on that short list, and it's going to be a huge sense of closure to finally see how this series concludes.


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## Bergelmir (Oct 16, 2012)

martryn said:


> I bet there are like nine mountains, or nine provinces or something in Seanchan land.



It could be a reference to the Nine Rods of Dominion. Something that got passed down and twisted over time that Luthair Paendrag took with him to the Seanchan lands.


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## martryn (Oct 16, 2012)

> It could be a reference to the Nine Rods of Dominion. Something that got passed down and twisted over time that Luthair Paendrag took with him to the Seanchan lands.



Yeah.  That's totally what I meant.


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## perman07 (Oct 16, 2012)

Nimander said:


> I'm so fucking ready for this last book to come out.  As I've gotten older, I've come to discover that it's the rare fantasy author or series that can keep me engaged and write a good enough story that I actually enjoy it fully.  Jordan is high on that short list, and it's going to be a huge sense of closure to finally see how this series concludes.


Haven't really read that much different fantasy (just standard things, Tolkien, Harry Potter if that can be considered fantasy, His dark materials), but I love Wheel of Time. What else is on that short list then? Could use something good.


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## martryn (Oct 16, 2012)

If you want to read great fantasy, and you haven't read either A Song of Ice and Fire or the Name of the Wind, then you're incomplete.  

A Song of Ice and Fire is a bit more mature than Wheel of Time.  It's not necessarily better, but deals with much darker subject matter and in general the characters act more real.  Name of the Wind is just fantastic, and is only a trilogy, with the last book coming out in the next couple of years.

Other great fantasy, though not must read, I'd think includes anything by Stephen R. Donaldson, the Malazan novels, and anything by David Gemmell.  Donaldson generally uses themes much more mature than even George R. R. Martin, though not quite as graphic in most of his works.  Plot takes a lesser role to character development and introspection.  Malazan is just as epic in scope as Wheel of Time, and I think David Gemmell wrote with a passion, especially if you just read books in his Drenai series, each of which is more or less stand alone.

You could also read the first three or four books of the Sword of Truth series, but only if you can convince yourself to stop there, as any further into the series and the quality plummets and the author, Terry Goodkind, starts on these Ayn Rand rants.

If you're looking for more of the crap fluff fantasy that you seem to enjoy, you could always read the massive collection of Drizzt novels by R.A. Salvatore, or the Noble Dead series written by the Hendees.  Both series are quick reads, despite the number of volumes, and contain some interesting ideas, without actually being much good.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 16, 2012)

Tor has also released the first chapter of _A Memory of Light_ for public consumption, if you are interested. They also have excerpts from the Prologue and Chapter 11.

Should you need even more, the Prologue has been released early in ebook format.


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## perman07 (Oct 16, 2012)

I read the 1st Malazan book and liked it, have got book 2 and 3. But for various reasons, I didn't start book 2 properly after 1 (meaning I tried to start several times), and I feel like I need to read book 1 again to remember the plot properly.

What I found kind of exhausting about the 1st book, and why I struggled so much with starting the next book was that there were chapters with 1st person perspectives from new characters constantly. It was like there were so many things to learn all the time, instead of relying on familiarity. It felt almost like reading history or something, where you get overwhelmed by the vastness of it all, all the details.

I liked it though, it's just lazyness that I haven't started again.


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## Cyphon (Oct 16, 2012)

I am with you perman. Malazan was more tedious than engaging. If you are complaining about familiarity it will only get worse for you as the books shift to a completely new cast in book 2 and again in 5 IIRC. I believe 1 and 3 have similar cast and 2 and 4. I stopped at book 5 as I started to realize the bad outweighed the good in the series for me.


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 16, 2012)

Nimander said:


> I'm so fucking ready for this last book to come out.  As I've gotten older, I've come to discover that it's the rare fantasy author or series that can keep me engaged and write a good enough story that I actually enjoy it fully.  Jordan is high on that short list, and it's going to be a huge sense of closure to finally see how this series concludes.



Yes, I also am experiencing a great sensation of anticipation regarding the conclusion of this series; with such an epic storyline as this, Sanderson shall need to put forth a great amount of effort to provide a finale that is satisfying and appropriate, but if he did well with the previous two books, then I am certain that he shall be able to do well with the final book, as well.

Martryn: thank you for the suggestions of other fantasy authors to read; I shall definitely remember some of those names if I ever am seeking a new series to read (and after I finish both this series and _A Song of Ice and Fire,_ I may be in need of a new series).


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## Cyphon (Oct 16, 2012)

I have high expectations for the last book and I would be on them being met. Sanderson has done a great job taking over. He also seems to have read this series more than anyone else on the planet. He got this.


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## Ruby Moon (Oct 16, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Tor has also released the first chapter of _A Memory of Light_ for public consumption, if you are interested. They also have excerpts from the Prologue and Chapter 11.
> 
> Should you need even more, the Prologue has been released early in ebook format.



By the Light...  

I'll be able to spend half the year next year just reading this.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 16, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> He also seems to have read this series more than anyone else on the planet. He got this.


The lucky devil was privy to all of Jordan's notes and lists.  It'd be awesome to get just some of those in a book.


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## Cyphon (Oct 16, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> The lucky devil was privy to all of Jordan's notes and lists.  It'd be awesome to get just some of those in a book.



Agreed. I can't even imagine what it had to be like for him as a fan of the books for so long to see it. The ending write there and he is personally writing it and making it fit.

I would be interested in hearing his thoughts as it all went down and how he thinks the pressure of having to write it changed his enjoyment factor of seeing the ending.


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## EvilMoogle (Oct 17, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> The lucky devil was privy to all of Jordan's notes and lists.  It'd be awesome to get just some of those in a book.


I would be very surprised if they don't release a compilation of Jordan's notes at some point after the last book is released.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2012)

I actually went looking for interviews last night. Sanderson said when he first went home with Harriet she asked if he wanted dinner and he said no, he wanted to see the ending and who killed Asmodean so she gave him everything to read (maybe you all already knew that but I thought it was interesting). Probably what I would have done as well.


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## DocTerror (Oct 20, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why is Tuon called the "Daughter of the Nine Moons?" The world in which this story is set has only one moon, to the best of my knowledge, so that title must have some other, figurative, meaning. Are the "nine moons" a symbol or metaphor of some type?
> 
> And does the continent on which the story is set have a name? The continent of Seanchan has a name, but I always refer to the other continent as simply "the mainland," since I do not know if it has any other name.



When she first meets Mat his signet ring has several cresting moons which made me think of moon phases and sure enough there are 9 phases. New moon through Dark moon.


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## Maerala (Oct 20, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why is Tuon called the "Daughter of the Nine Moons?" The world in which this story is set has only one moon, to the best of my knowledge, so that title must have some other, figurative, meaning. Are the "nine moons" a symbol or metaphor of some type?



I believe the Nine Moons were first mentioned back in _The Great Hunt_ when the Seanchan blademaster Rand killed said someone was gonna be tried under the Court of the Nine Moons or something of the sort. They're probably just the symbol of the Seanchan continent/people.



> And does the continent on which the story is set have a name? The continent of Seanchan has a name, but I always refer to the other continent as simply "the mainland," since I do not know if it has any other name.



I don't think it has an official name, but it is commonly referred to by the fandom as the Westlands; I've heard the mainland as well.

Also, can anyone confirm that when Robert Jordan was still writing the series, a gender-specific pronoun was never used for the Creator? I was reading _The Gathering Storm_ and I noticed Sanderson uses "he," but I'd never noticed that in the books Jordan wrote personally.



Cyphon said:


> Not a big Moraine fan but I thought she was especially cold and bitchy in this book at times.



Moiraine blasting Be'lal out of existence was one of the highlights of _The Dragon Reborn_.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 23, 2012)

I don't think it would matter which pronoun was used since the Creator doesn't interact with the characters as much the Dark One does. In fact the only instance of the Creator was when he was talking to Rand at the end of _Eye of the World_. There is no literature where someone has communicated with the Creator, it is all conjecture and philosophical masturbation. The pronoun would be dependent on whatever the culture perceives to be important or the qualities they want the creator to have. The same way the Sheinarians say "may the last embrace of the mother..." because they see nature as having maternal qualities.


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## perman07 (Oct 23, 2012)

I think the Creator might have had a hand in the in the very first book too. That whole scene where Rand is wielding saidin from the Eye of the World against Ishmael seems suspicious, though that might be that Jordan hadn't established a lot of the rules of channeling, but it seemed like Rand had too strong intuition on how to use Saidin.


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## Nimander (Oct 23, 2012)

perman07 said:


> Haven't really read that much different fantasy (just standard things, Tolkien, Harry Potter if that can be considered fantasy, His dark materials), but I love Wheel of Time. What else is on that short list then? Could use something good.



The Good Shit
-Malazan Book of the Fallen: you will either love or hate this series.  It's the rare person that falls in the middle.  I happen to love it.  The complexity and sheer breadth of the world blows me away, and is honestly done to a degree I've yet to see any other author match.  Jordan comes close with how ambitious and successful he was in creating an entire world in his novels.  But Erikson beats him in that regard.  Plus Gardens of the Moon, to this day, has one of the best climaxes I've ever read.  To be honest, that's what really got me hooked on the series 9 years ago now.  

-The Wheel of Time: of course

-The Kingkiller Chronicles: only has two books out so far, but Patrick Rothfuss has VERY high quality writing.  When I think of the word "bard", he comes to mind with his prose and style.  Very enjoyable to read

-The Prince of Nothing series: fairly dark fantasy, but enjoyable nonetheless.  Scott Bakkar plays around with tropes in all sorts of fun ways.

-A Song of Ice and Fire: if you haven't heard of George R.R. Martin yet, you've been living under a rock.  Though my respect for the author isn't as high as it used to be due to how fucking long it took him to release his latest book.  But that's something else entirely.  It's a pretty good series regardless.

-The Mistborn Trilogy and Way of Kings: Sanderson takes a while to get rolling with his books.  To me at least, they move VERY slow to start with.  But, once things start to pick up, they pick up and it's a hell of a ride.  For example; it took me three weeks to make my way through the first book, and three days to finish off the last two.  In his Way of Kings novel, which is honest to God 1,000-ish pages, I didn't really get "pulled in" to the story till about pg. 485 or so.  Yet, for all that, I love the books I've listed so far.  So your mileage may vary, depending on your patience.  But I still very much recommend these ones.

Honorable Mentions:

The Dresden Files and Codex Alera: Butcher has a way of writing what is a flatout enjoyable protagonist.  Plus, his stories can make me laugh.  And a story without humor isn't going to interest me for long AT ALL.  I laugh in spades whenever I read these.

The Dark Tower series: your mileage may definitely vary on this one, especially since Stephen King isn't for everyone.  But I enjoyed the approach he took to this series.  The Drawing of the Three is flatout my favorite book out of all of them, and the ending was...satisfying, which is kinda weird, but kinda not at the same time.  If you read it, you'll understand.  

Prospero Trilogy by L. Jagi Lamplighter: a funky mix of fantasy, mystery (which I normally don't even touch but which somehow works with this series), Shakespearean characters and modern-day settings.  All that said, it's definitely worth a look, and though I haven't had the chance to read the third book yet, it's definitely on my to-do list.

Well, this post is long enough.  Though I do have a few more I could possibly recommend, I'll cut things off here lol.


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## Nae'blis (Oct 23, 2012)

Has anyone read Joe Abercrombie's _the First Law_ trilogy? I read the first book about a year ago but it got the pecker up. Joe Abercrombie & Stephen Donaldson are phenomenal authors who always tend to be left out of these lists.


perman07 said:


> I think the Creator might have had a hand in the in the very first book too. That whole scene where Rand is wielding saidin from the Eye of the World against Ishmael seems suspicious, though that might be that Jordan hadn't established a lot of the rules of channeling, but it seemed like Rand had too strong intuition on how to use Saidin.


Maybe. The only problem I have is that Rand channeled instinctively in the Stone of Tear before he started hearing Lews Therin. When he pretty much destroyed all the shadowspawn with a single weave.


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## EvilMoogle (Oct 23, 2012)

Everyone born with the spark channels instinctively, unless they're found and taught early.

They're just limited in what they do (it's not made clear what sort of instinct guides them).  Nynaeve was a better healer than anyone in the white tower without any training.  Moraine learned her "eavesdropping trick" before coming to the tower.

Rand's especially blessed by this, but then he's very strongly ta'veren, which basically means the plot lets him.


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## Nimander (Oct 24, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Has anyone read Joe Abercrombie's _the First Law_ trilogy? I read the first book about a year ago but it got the pecker up. Joe Abercrombie & Stephen Donaldson are phenomenal authors who always tend to be left out of these lists.
> Maybe. The only problem I have is that Rand channeled instinctively in the Stone of Tear before he started hearing Lews Therin. When he pretty much destroyed all the shadowspawn with a single weave.



It's a pretty good series, though I admit I liked the sequel, "Best Served Cold" WAY better.  What merely impressed me with the trilogy blew me away with the sequel, and fifth book "The Heroes" was pretty good too.

Also what I forgot to mention in my list of honorables was "The Lies of Locke Lamora". 

With Rand though, every instance of channeling before The Shadow Rising should kinda be taken with a grain of salt, because it's only here that Jordan really puts thought into the mechanics and rules of everything.  Something I didn't notice till I bought most of the series and read it all through at once.


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## Cyphon (Oct 24, 2012)

I think Malazan sucks but most probably know that by now. Instead of being completely disagreeable though I want to 2nd some choices and add some. 



Nimander said:


> -The Kingkiller Chronicles: only has two books out so far, but Patrick Rothfuss has VERY high quality writing.  When I think of the word "bard", he comes to mind with his prose and style.  Very enjoyable to read



100% with this. Never thought about the bard thing but it certainly fits. The dude can write.......VERY smoothly. He can literally have nothing happening in his books and it still is nice to read. 



> -The Prince of Nothing series: fairly dark fantasy, but enjoyable nonetheless.  Scott Bakkar plays around with tropes in all sorts of fun ways.



Still deciding whether to pick this up. You got some more details. Anything you would compare it to. 



> The Dresden Files and Codex Alera: Butcher has a way of writing what is a flatout enjoyable protagonist.  Plus, his stories can make me laugh.  And a story without humor isn't going to interest me for long AT ALL.  I laugh in spades whenever I read these.



Should be higher. Especially seeing as you have Malazan up there and Mistborn trilogy. I would say both Codex and Files blow those 2 both away and the great thing is that DF is only halfway in at 14-15 books. Probably have to call Butcher my favorite author at this point. 



> The Dark Tower series: your mileage may definitely vary on this one, especially since Stephen King isn't for everyone.  But I enjoyed the approach he took to this series.  The Drawing of the Three is flatout my favorite book out of all of them, and the ending was...satisfying, which is kinda weird, but kinda not at the same time.  If you read it, you'll understand.



I rate DK about the same as you. Would recommend it but not with much enthusiasm. It is certainly interesting the way he went about it but the actual substance never really drew me in like some series do. Also, Wizard and Glass was easily my favorite. In fact it was the only book in the series I think I would go back and read again with excitement. 



Nae'blis said:


> Has anyone read Joe Abercrombie's _the First Law_ trilogy?



Read it. Really strong cast of characters but as far as plot, magic/action etc....It just never drew me in. This is one that I probably wouldn't recommend. Though a lot of people seem to dig it. 



Nimander said:


> Also what I forgot to mention in my list of honorables was "The Lies of Locke Lamora".



Same thing with this as with Butcher. Should definitely go above honorables. First 2 books are awesome and with a 7 book outlook it should gain some depth. Main issue is the release dates for the next ones seems like they could rival Martin.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 26, 2012)

For those of you who refuse to read spoilers, here's a loophole should you want: Chapter 2 of _A Memory of Light _audio. Narrated by Kate Reading and Michael Kramer.


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## Ruby Moon (Oct 26, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha, you still attempt to spoil me


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 26, 2012)

Why, I'd never. 
[sp=Chapter 2]I haven't gotten the chance to listen yet, but judging by the comments about it, we've finally gone back to the Black Tower.[/sp]


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## Nimander (Oct 27, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> I think Malazan sucks but most probably know that by now. Instead of being completely disagreeable though I want to 2nd some choices and add some.



We'll agree to disagree, as I think MBotF is one of the best fantasy series of all time.  It has its low points, but for the most part the series is excellent to me.



> Still deciding whether to pick this up. You got some more details. Anything you would compare it to.



Closest thing I can think of is Joe Abercrombie, without the humor.  Probably off with this, but it's what comes to mind first.



> Should be higher. Especially seeing as you have Malazan up there and Mistborn trilogy. I would say both Codex and Files blow those 2 both away and the great thing is that DF is only halfway in at 14-15 books. Probably have to call Butcher my favorite author at this point.



Don't get me wrong.  I fucking love Butcher's books, and they are among my favorites.  But as far as what I put as the "good" books, they were more along the lines of epic or what I've heard called "high" fantasy.  They're the kinds of fantasy stories I love the most because of how deeply they can draw me in with the depth of the world they create and how truly imaginative they tend to be.  Plus it's much harder for an author to write successfully than a more limited universe like you'll see in most novels.  



> Read it. Really strong cast of characters but as far as plot, magic/action etc....It just never drew me in. This is one that I probably wouldn't recommend. Though a lot of people seem to dig it.



To me, it was the characters that made these stories enjoyable more than the world setting itself.  Pretty well written, and like I might have said above "Best Served Cold" is just a flat-out fun read.




> Same thing with this as with Butcher. Should definitely go above honorables. First 2 books are awesome and with a 7 book outlook it should gain some depth. Main issue is the release dates for the next ones seems like they could rival Martin.



They were good, no great stories.  But to me they weren't really memorable.  Like, I read them and loved reading them at the time.  But a week after I'd put the book down I was like "eh" when I thought back to it.  And, if for some reason the series never continued and only stopped at the two that have been released right now, I honestly can't say I'd be disappointed all that much.  I couldn't have said that halfway through Erikson, or Butcher and definitely not with Jordan.  I kinda use that as a gauge of just how much a book in a series is able to draw me in.  Whether I'd care to see how the series concludes or not.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 27, 2012)

[sp=Chapter 2]So we have Pevara and Androl flirting with and "forcefully taking" each other while in the shadow of the Black Tower. A little more on how women view _saidin_ and men, _saidar_.

For me, the most interesting part is the feedback loop created through double bonding. Usually non-channeling men are bonded, and we saw that Elayne's bond with Birgitte was stronger because they're both women, or at least that was the implication. It'll be interesting to see how these double bonds affect them and others, as I suspect they're not the first nor the last.

As for Elayne's plan about Camelyn, I think it's rather smart. I suspect, as Elayne probably does, that it is an attempt to lure Andor and its forces away and weaken the combined armies.[/sp]


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## Ruby Moon (Oct 27, 2012)

After I read the Wheel of Time series, I was thinking of the Dresden Files. Nimander, your sig looks awesome. I saw that cover on the newly published paperbacks at the bookstore. Gotta love the way Mat looks - however, he's missing his hat


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## Damaris (Oct 27, 2012)

i really can't think of another place to ask this on the forums but: i love tattoos and i love wheel of time, and i want to get a few tattoos to mark the end of the series, especially now that i've got a regular income for the forseeable future. i've already decided on the car'a'carn dragon tats on each arm, but any other ideas? i've been drawn to the heronmark, but i can't think of where i'd put it.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 27, 2012)

You could go for the Serpent and Wheel, the Aes Sedai symbol, a foxhead, or ravens.


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## perman07 (Oct 27, 2012)

I'd like to add the .


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## Nimander (Oct 28, 2012)

I'm going with a pure text tat, probably  the "Life is a dream" quote since that's probably my favorite line in the series.  The Aiel, as a people and a culture, are probably the best written I can recall from any series I've read.  The whole conception and execution of them in the story line was very well done.  And Aiel humor is awesome.


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## Darth (Oct 28, 2012)

Just finished "The Eye of the World"

Looking forward to continuing the rest of the series.


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## Ruby Moon (Oct 28, 2012)

Nimander said:


> I'm going with a pure text tat, probably  the "Life is a dream" quote since that's probably my favorite line in the series.  *The Aiel, as a people and a culture, are probably the best written I can recall from any series I've read.  The whole conception and execution of them in the story line was very well done.*  And Aiel humor is awesome.



I heard that the Aiel were based on Native American tribes.


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## perman07 (Oct 29, 2012)

I've found the Aiel slightly unbelievable in some respects. They seem a little bit too homogenous to me. Everything I've read, seen, heard and experienced in my life leads me to believe that people from every culture are more diverse than we can imagine, that there are selfish people, giving people, nice people, mean people everywhere and that individual, human nature is a stronger force than culture. Meanwhile in Wheel of time, there are the hardy Aiel, that all work hard, all care immensely about honor, and all live by the same, self-chosen mathematical system of Ji'e'toh where they have to spend exacly one year on a self-induced lowering of themselves. Except for the Shaido who apparently are just the same, but with less honor.

It's typical of fantasy really, where groups are given too much shared qualities, like for instance dwarves being greedy and liking mead, while elves are non-violent and intelligent. It fits with things like Myrdraal that I can buy are all pure evil, but I don't buy it with the Aiel that are people like us, and thus operate under normal human logic. There are no superior groups of people in this world.


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## Damaris (Oct 29, 2012)

we see greedy, selfish, giving, nice, and mean aiel all throughout the non-shaido aiel too though????? i mean the things you're talking about are just cultural markers, not individual characteristics. do you object to the fact that all cairhienin in the series tend to live and die by the game of houses and are very cunning and ambitious, or that all tinkers (except for one) are devoted to the way of the leaf, wear bright clothes, and travel from place to place?


it seems that you have more of a problem with the idea/viability of the aiel culture more than anything else.


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## perman07 (Oct 29, 2012)

Anony34215 said:


> we see greedy, selfish, giving, nice, and mean aiel all throughout the non-shaido aiel too though????? i mean the things you're talking about are just cultural markers, not individual characteristics. do you object to the fact that all cairhienin in the series tend to live and die by the game of houses and are very cunning and ambitious, or that all tinkers (except for one) are devoted to the way of the leaf, wear bright clothes, and travel from place to place?
> 
> 
> it seems that you have more of a problem with the idea/viability of the aiel culture more than anything else.


We some individual variation among the Aiel indeed. However, if you were to try to seperate how for instance the clan chiefs behind Rand differ from one another, how the Wise Ones differ from one another (if we exclude the Shaido), I think you would struggle.

The Cairhienin have more outliers also, like Faile's Aiel impersonators, Moraine, Dobraine, and so on, that show they have the normal human variety of any culture.

I mean, I like Jordan and this series, but I do see this tendency as one his bigger flaws, it infects the Aes Sedai that all look like petty, squabbling, self-important morons compared to the 20-year old almighty Egwene (I think he had to make them that way for her to actually outsmart them).

As for the Tinkers, people who choose to live that way congregate together, so I see no problems with them. They're like hippies, or weird sects. Aiel or Cairhienin are born into it (though Tinkers are too, but you can join them).

You say I have a problem with the viability of the Aiel culture, and that is partially true, but it's more that this shame/honor thing is such a perfectly personal thing of integrity with them. If we look at honor cultures around the world, honor tends to be just as much a matter of collectivism, and preventing the shame of how others look upon you (instead of personal integrity). With the Aiel, it's more like each and every member have their own individual sense of honor that just happens to be the exact same. Ji'e'toh after all is is personal, you choose how you repay toh, but they all seem to choose similarly and think similarly.


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## Damaris (Oct 29, 2012)

perman07 said:


> We some individual variation among the Aiel indeed. However, if you were to try to seperate how for instance the clan chiefs behind Rand differ from one another, how the Wise Ones differ from one another (if we exclude the Shaido), I think you would struggle.



i don't have any of my books on hand, but even off the top of my head i can think of differences. there are clan chiefs behind rand who think he should just ignore the wetlanders, he doesn't need them because he has the aiel, and there are those who disagree; the wise ones are honestly some of the most fleshed out characters in the books, i don't know what you're going off of here--melaine and sorrilea and amys might have the same goal, but they have markedly different methods of achieving it, and very different individual personalities as well.



> I mean, I like Jordan and this series, but I do see this tendency as one his bigger flaws, it infects the Aes Sedai that all look like petty, squabbling, self-important morons compared to the 20-year old almighty Egwene (I think he had to make them that way for her to actually outsmart them).



i mean...that's the whole point of the aes sedai?? they're supposed to be petty, squabbling and self-important for a number of very valid plot-related reasons. they're only one half of the true aes sedai organization, because they have no men, and they've been left unchecked to run rampant over randland for generations. they've become cloistered, arrogant and detached from the world as a result. of course they're going to become the mess that they when the series starts, that's the whole point. 



> As for the Tinkers, people who choose to live that way congregate together, so I see no problems with them. They're like hippies, or weird sects. Aiel or Cairhienin are born into it (though Tinkers are too, but you can join them).



i don't think that's true to be honest; it's no more of a choice for the tinkers than it is for any other nationality in randland, and its disingenuous to say "oh they choose it" and then turn around and say that the aiel's culture is less valid because they "are born into it". the way of the leaf is as fiercely ingrained into tinkers _from birth_ as jie'e'toh is to the aiel. we've seen tinkers die on screen rather than fight for themselves, i think it's a bit dishonest to go like "oh well its just a weird sect" when it obviously isn't, in text.



> You say I have a problem with the viability of the Aiel culture, and that is partially true, but it's more that this shame/honor thing is such a perfectly personal thing of integrity with them. If we look at honor cultures around the world, *honor tends to be just as much a matter of collectivism, and preventing the shame of how others look upon you* (instead of personal integrity). With the Aiel, it's more like each and every member have their own individual sense of honor that just happens to be the exact same. Ji'e'toh after all is is personal, you choose how you repay toh, but they all seem to choose similarly and think similarly.



this is literally _exactly_ how the aiel view jie'e'toh though...i'm really not getting your problem with it at all????? there's a whole description in one of the middle books, probably fires of heaven, about the varying levels of shame you can amass in a battle, and how the shame of being touched but not harmed or something is the highest level, because it shows to everyone how thoroughly you were defeated/in control your opponent was, and lowers your honor in front of everyone else. like idk its just...you're saying things but they aren't the things that are presented in the actual text, that's all.


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## perman07 (Oct 29, 2012)

Anony34215 said:


> i don't have any of my books on hand, but even off the top of my head i can think of differences. there are clan chiefs behind rand who think he should just ignore the wetlanders, he doesn't need them because he has the aiel, and there are those who disagree; the wise ones are honestly some of the most fleshed out characters in the books, i don't know what you're going off of here--melaine and sorrilea and amys might have the same goal, but they have markedly different methods of achieving it, and very different individual personalities as well.


Sorilea differs, no disputing that, but Amys, Melain, Bair and all of those basically feel like variations of the same stock character.

And the differences you described in the clan leaders are differences created just as much by plot, it doesn't come from traits you can single out in the various chiefs.


> i mean...that's the whole point of the aes sedai?? they're supposed to be petty, squabbling and self-important for a number of very valid plot-related reasons. they're only one half of the true aes sedai organization, because they have no men, and they've been left unchecked to run rampant over randland for generations. they've become cloistered, arrogant and detached from the world as a result. of course they're going to become the mess that they when the series starts, that's the whole point.


Ehm, they are also women who spend decades or even centuries studying the world, and also governing the world. They're experienced power brokers. And 20-year old Egwene makes them look like idiots.

I can buy the cloistered, arrogant, and detached part about them, but at the start of the series, we saw various Aes Sedai like Moraine, Siuan, Verin, Elaida who all had differing motives, but were obviously competent when it came to achieving their ends. As the series has gone on, they have just become total cliches, and I just don't find the portrayal of them that credible.

 Imagine the same in the real world, having a 20-year old dude or a girl  outsmarting lots of old, smart experienced politicians (who may be  cloistered, arrogant and detached in the same way). A writer would have  to write it well for it to feel credible, since they are obviously  competent no matter how arrogant they are.



> i don't think that's true to be honest; it's no more of a choice for the tinkers than it is for any other nationality in randland, and its disingenuous to say "oh they choose it" and then turn around and say that the aiel's culture is less valid because they "are born into it". the way of the leaf is as fiercely ingrained into tinkers _from birth_ as jie'e'toh is to the aiel. we've seen tinkers die on screen rather than fight for themselves, i think it's a bit dishonest to go like "oh well its just a weird sect" when it obviously isn't, in text.


We have seen both in the flashback of the Aiel, and with Aram, examples of people leaving Aiel, and we can infer how they presumably gain members from the first book in which both Perrin and Egwene found their life style appealing. That portrayal all in all seems similar to how various religious denominations in the world gain and lose members.

The Aiel doesn't have any mechanisms like this. In all groups of people around the world, you have lots of true individuals who are completely different from a standard member of their society, and who find their own ideals to live by. The Aiel (excluding the Shaido) doesn't have a single outlier like that, and I dare you to find one.



> this is literally _exactly_ how the aiel view jie'e'toh though...i'm really not getting your problem with it at all????? there's a whole description in one of the middle books, probably fires of heaven, about the varying levels of shame you can amass in a battle, and how the shame of being touched but not harmed or something is the highest level, because it shows to everyone how thoroughly you were defeated/in control your opponent was, and lowers your honor in front of everyone else. like idk its just...you're saying things but they aren't the things that are presented in the actual text, that's all.


Not really, Rand was embarrassing himself when he was asking whether or not he had toh, because toh is something you decide for yourself, meaning other people don't actually require you to meet your toh (thus, this isn't collectivism). You have to understand, this is an entire society of people where every single member believes that the shame incurred from being touched is worth exactly 1 year. There wouldn't be any toh to meet if some person believed it wasn't that shameful to be touched, yet they all believe it, and all voluntarily become gai'shin, despite the fact that no one would react if they didn't become gai'shin.

That's my problem. You have lazy people in every fucking society in the world. People who find no shame in being lazy (despite the norm of a society being built on shame and honor, which there are lots of in this world), but there is not a single person like that among the Aiel.


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## EvilMoogle (Oct 29, 2012)

perman07 said:


> That's my problem. You have lazy people in every fucking society in the world. People who find no shame in being lazy (despite the norm of a society being built on shame and honor, which there are lots of in this world), but there is not a single person like that among the Aiel.



Part of that might be because the Aiel don't exactly live a life that caters to the lazy (or didn't until recently at least).  If you were lazy in the desert you died of thirst or starvation or were bitten by one of the horrific things that will kill you before you feel the pain of the bite.


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## perman07 (Oct 29, 2012)

^There is some truth to that probably, but there is a difference between doing what you need to do, and doing shit beyond that, and being Gai'shin clearly falls into the latter.


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## Damaris (Oct 29, 2012)

perman07 said:


> Sorilea differs, no disputing that, but Amys, Melain, Bair and all of those basically feel like variations of the same stock character.



i mean...if you go by that, you can reduce anyone in this book to a stock character. "all the aes sedai are variations on the same stock character. all the whitecloaks/warders/two rivers men/andorans..." etc etc the point is, even though they uphold the same culture and have the same goals, they do vary individually as personalities and this reflects in their manner toward how they achieve those goals.



> And the differences you described in the clan leaders are differences created just as much by plot, it doesn't come from traits you can single out in the various chiefs.



like i said i don't have my books on hand, but even so i can remember some clan chiefs are described as jovial, some more stone faced...i dont know what you expect more than that--detailed indepth side story chapters dedicated to fleshing them all out as well as the main characters would just be ludicrous. 



> Ehm, they are also women who spend decades or even centuries studying the world, and also governing the world. They're experienced power brokers. And 20-year old Egwene makes them look like idiots.



yes but the point is they all study the world from the same point of view: that aes sedai are superior to everyone else, they treat kings and queens like children and think their way is the only correct way. the point is that egwene, despite her youth, has a different way of seeing things and realizes that aes sedai are supposed to be servants not rulers.



> I can buy the cloistered, arrogant, and detached part about them, but at the start of the series, we saw various Aes Sedai like Moraine, Siuan, Verin, Elaida who all had differing motives, but were obviously competent when it came to achieving their ends. As the series has gone on, they have just become total cliches, and I just don't find the portrayal of them that credible.



are you really going to say that siuan and verin have become cliches...? they're two of the most accomplished characters in the books, siuan doing it despite an incredible fall from grace. moiraine was accomplished yes but we were shown that she had to unlearn her aes sedai arrogance in order to handle rand properly and elaida was blinded by power. in what way do you not find that credible? i think yr underestimating the influence of culture + history here. this is like three thousand years of aes sedai being on top; aes sedai telling the world and themselves that they lead humanity. three thousand years of male channelers being the ultimate evil, of the dragon reborn being a fucking nightmare. elaida was raised and steeped in that mindset, particularly as a red ajah member, and you're shocked that she couldn't handle male channelers and the dragon reborn properly as a result? it would be more of a cliche if she magically could.



> Imagine the same in the real world, having a 20-year old dude or a girl  outsmarting lots of old, smart experienced politicians (who may be  cloistered, arrogant and detached in the same way). A writer would have  to write it well for it to feel credible, since they are obviously  competent no matter how arrogant they are.



then i guess we have to agree to disagree, because i think jordan handled it as credibly as it could possibly be. egwene's character arc was nothing short of amazing.



> We have seen both in the flashback of the Aiel, and with Aram, examples of people leaving Aiel, and we can infer how they presumably gain members from the first book in which both Perrin and Egwene found their life style appealing. That portrayal all in all seems similar to how various religious denominations in the world gain and lose members.



if anything, tinkers are based on the romani people, with the traveling and the stereotypes in randland of them being thieves. they're an ethnicity; one with their own belief system yes, but you can't call them a weird sect anymore than you can call jewish people a sect. people might convert, but it doesn't change their fundamental status.



> The Aiel doesn't have any mechanisms like this. In all groups of people around the world, you have lots of true individuals who are completely different from a standard member of their society, and who find their own ideals to live by. The Aiel (excluding the Shaido) doesn't have a single outlier like that, and I dare you to find one.



you keep speaking in generalizations. what the hell is a true individual? what is completely different? this is pretty standard for culture all over the world man...people are shaped by the culture they grow up in, that's a fact. and in an isolated environment like the three fold waste it makes sense that individuality would not be viable. you can't exactly have a teenage goth phase and run off; you'll just _die_. once the aiel are exposed to the outside world, we see the culture start to split (dragonsworn, those who put down their spears, aviendha's realization in the pillars) but no, when they're in the three fold waste, it would make no sense for them to change. how can you change without an external influence? 



> Not really, Rand was embarrassing himself when he was asking whether or not he had toh, because toh is something you decide for yourself, meaning other people don't actually require you to meet your toh (thus, this isn't collectivism). You have to understand, this is an entire society of people where every single member believes that the shame incurred from being touched is worth exactly 1 year. There wouldn't be any toh to meet if some person believed it wasn't that shameful to be touched, yet they all believe it, and all voluntarily become gai'shin, despite the fact that no one would react if they didn't become gai'shin.



no, toh isn't something you decide for yourself; the amount you do to meet your toh is determined by yourself. toh is given to you by other people. this is the reason that even if you do something that might incur toh, if no one acknowledges it/pretends it didn't happen, you don't actually gain toh. 

you keep using collectivism as your basis for your argument against the aiel but i don't think you actually know what it means?? collectivism in the context of honor relies on traditional roles and not thinking separate thoughts from the established mentality very very solidly, to the point where breaking the norm in some collectivism honor cultures will get you killed. on one hand you are condemning the aiel for allegedly having no individuals but on the other hand you say they aren't collective enough. the fact is, the aiel are a people who formed their society in an environment where almost everything can and will kill you within _seconds_. this does not breed a society of individuals. it breeds the kind of culture where you follow rules, rules that have been handed down to keep you alive, and ji'e'toh is a really logical outcome of that, sociologically speaking. it relies on a sense of iron clad community, and again, within the frame of the wheel of time universe: this has been happening for three _thousand_ years. that is dozens of generations all following the same rules. dozens of generations all being shaped by the same cultural narrative, year after year. do you question all the facets of your own culture, no matter how silly they might seem to others? 



> That's my problem. You have lazy people in every fucking society in the world. People who find no shame in being lazy (despite the norm of a society being built on shame and honor, which there are lots of in this world), but there is not a single person like that among the Aiel.



like evil moogle said, being lazy among the aiel isn't really an option. it gets you killed. "the breaking of the world killed the weak and the three-fold land killed the cowards."


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## EvilMoogle (Oct 29, 2012)

perman07 said:


> ^There is some truth to that probably, but there is a difference between doing what you need to do, and doing shit beyond that, and being Gai'shin clearly falls into the latter.



They kinda addressed that though, the society essentially cast out people that didn't do the Gai'shain.  IIRC they talked about "their own brother would beat and bind them and deliver them back to [their captor]" if a Gai'Shain ran away.

So I guess you could choose to run away into the waste and survive without your clan, but....


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## perman07 (Oct 29, 2012)

> i mean...if you go by that, you can reduce anyone in this book to a stock character. "all the aes sedai are variations on the same stock character. all the whitecloaks/warders/two rivers men/andorans..." etc etc the point is, even though they uphold the same culture and have the same goals, they do vary individually as personalities and this reflects in their manner toward how they achieve those goals.


Indeed, there are a lot of characters you could do this to. And if Jordan wrote the series perfectly, there would be few people you could do this to. 

As I said, I see this as one of Jordan's failings. If you do not agree with me on that, there isn't really anything to discuss, cause this is a matter of opinion.



> like i said i don't have my books on hand, but even so i can remember some clan chiefs are described as jovial, some more stone faced...i dont know what you expect more than that--detailed indepth side story chapters dedicated to fleshing them all out as well as the main characters would just be ludicrous.


That is true too, but good description of characters is implicit, the author doesn't have to write out adjectives to describe them. We, the readers, can apply our own adjectives from behavior and conversation, and doing that and finding different adjectives to describe the clan chiefs is practically impossible.



> yes but the point is they all study the world from the same point of view: that aes sedai are superior to everyone else, they treat kings and queens like children and think their way is the only correct way. the point is that egwene, despite her youth, has a different way of seeing things and realizes that aes sedai are supposed to be servants not rulers.


Yes again, she alone, the 20-year old, realizes this. Among people sculpted by decades/centuries of experience, she alone realizes something fucking obvious.



> are you really going to say that siuan and verin have become cliches...?
> they're two of the most accomplished characters in the books, siuan doing it despite an incredible fall from grace.


Way to take what I say out of context. I was obviously referring to Aes Sedai in general, there are lots of them in the later books.

When I say something like "they", I am not saying every single member of that group, I am talking in general.

And Siuan btw, gets scolded by Egwene on things she should obviously know or have figured out herself, but in the later books, Jordan has to dumb down characters to elevate Egwene.



> moiraine was accomplished yes but we were shown that she had to unlearn her aes sedai arrogance in order to handle rand properly and elaida was blinded by power. in what way do you not find that credible? i think yr underestimating the influence of culture + history here. this is like three thousand years of aes sedai being on top; aes sedai telling the world and themselves that they lead humanity. three thousand years of male channelers being the ultimate evil, of the dragon reborn being a fucking nightmare. elaida was raised and steeped in that mindset, particularly as a red ajah member, and you're shocked that she couldn't handle male channelers and the dragon reborn properly as a result? it would be more of a cliche if she magically could.


Again, you just find single examples when I am talking about trends. And the counter-examples you pick like Siuan, Verin and Morraine are characters I initially described as credible Aes Sedai, so I don't know what the fuck you're even trying to argue. This is total straw-manning.



> then i guess we have to agree to disagree, because i think jordan handled it as credibly as it could possibly be. egwene's character arc was nothing short of amazing.


I thought so on my first read to, but re-reading her arcs is just painful when you see the amount of idiocy from all the other Aes Sedai.



> if anything, tinkers are based on the romani people, with the traveling and the stereotypes in randland of them being thieves. they're an ethnicity; one with their own belief system yes, but you can't call them a weird sect anymore than you can call jewish people a sect. people might convert, but it doesn't change their fundamental status.


That is just your interpretation. Looking at the Wot-wiki's article on the , Tuatha D Danann, Jains and Hindus are mentioned there, nothing about romanis.

I won't deny there is a connection when it comes to stealing though, that does sound like an obvious reference.

My point overall though is that there is nothing in the series of books that suggest they have a homogenous ethnicity like other races. The jews (like you mention) might be a nice comparison, because they have a weird mixture of some shared ethnicity, but being a jew is a religious stance, not an ethnicity.

And you can infact call judaism a sect, in the same way you can call every religion a sect. Sects are generally considered breakaway religion in the modern vernacular, but that doesn't mean you can claim definitive interpretation over a weird term.



> you keep speaking in generalizations. what the hell is a true individual? what is completely different? this is pretty standard for culture all over the world man...people are shaped by the culture they grow up in, that's a fact. and in an isolated environment like the three fold waste it makes sense that individuality would not be viable. you can't exactly have a teenage goth phase and run off; you'll just _die_. once the aiel are exposed to the outside world, we see the culture start to split (dragonsworn, those who put down their spears, aviendha's realization in the pillars) but no, when they're in the three fold waste, it would make no sense for them to change. how can you change without an external influence?


There have been tons of isolated cultures everywhere, are you saying truly divergent people only exist among societies with outside exposure? Which, btw, the Aiel do have.



> no, toh isn't something you decide for yourself; the amount you do to meet your toh is determined by yourself. toh is given to you by other people. this is the reason that even if you do something that might incur toh, if no one acknowledges it/pretends it didn't happen, you don't actually gain toh.


Toh is self-inflicted, because they can always say that their toh has met, which Sulin demonstrated when she stopped being a servant of her own choice.

That other people observing it matter doesn't change the fact that it's fundamentally a personal choice.



> you keep using collectivism as your basis for your argument against the aiel but i don't think you actually know what it means?? collectivism in the context of honor relies on traditional roles and not thinking separate thoughts from the established mentality very very solidly, to the point where breaking the norm in some collectivism honor cultures will get you killed. on one hand you are condemning the aiel for allegedly having no individuals but on the other hand you say they aren't collective enough. the fact is, the aiel are a people who formed their society in an environment where almost everything can and will kill you within _seconds_. this does not breed a society of individuals. it breeds the kind of culture where you follow rules, rules that have been handed down to keep you alive, and ji'e'toh is a really logical outcome of that, sociologically speaking. it relies on a sense of iron clad community, and again, within the frame of the wheel of time universe: this has been happening for three _thousand_ years. that is dozens of generations all following the same rules. dozens of generations all being shaped by the same cultural narrative, year after year. do you question all the facets of your own culture, no matter how silly they might seem to others?


Again, straw-manning, you are arguing against extrapolations I've never said. I said it doesn't make sense that they all collectively follow a set of rules that there is no collective that actually enforces. If you disagree with that, you're free to do so.



> like evil moogle said, being lazy among the aiel isn't really an option. it gets you killed. "the breaking of the world killed the weak and the three-fold land killed the cowards."


And I fucking replied to him below him, so you are addressing something I already answered.



EvilMoogle said:


> They kinda addressed that though, the society  essentially cast out people that didn't do the Gai'shain.  IIRC they  talked about "their own brother would beat and bind them and deliver  them back to [their captor]" if a Gai'Shain ran away.
> 
> So I guess you could choose to run away into the waste and survive without your clan, but....


Ah, it says that somewhere? Ok, then it makes more sense, that is a sense of collective morality forcing people to do something.

What I've been arguing is that that it doesn't make sense that they all just follow it out of their own integrity. Humans aren't universally that honorable, and they would disagree upon the worth of their toh, which they don't.


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## Damaris (Oct 29, 2012)

perman07 said:


> Indeed, there are a lot of characters you could do this to. And if Jordan wrote the series perfectly, there would be few people you could do this to.



no i'm pretty sure that you can do this to any character anywhere from any work of fiction if you try hard enough. that's why it's silly to even bring it up, especially for minor characters in an insanely long and character-jammed series.
n.



> That is true too, but good description of characters is implicit, the author doesn't have to write out adjectives to describe them. We, the readers, can apply our own adjectives from behavior and conversation, and doing that and finding different adjectives to describe the clan chiefs is practically impossible.



again, i'm pretty sure that if i had my books on hand i could differentiate the clan chiefs extremely easily. of course you keep insisting that they're all the same and just saying "they're the same" as proof so...



> Yes again, she alone, the 20-year old, realizes this. Among people sculpted by decades/centuries of experience, she alone realizes something fucking obvious.



if you have decades of experience doing something only one wrong way, you will not necessarily think outside of that box. you'll think only in the way you have been trained to think, so it makes sense that egwene comes up with another way of thought, especially as she's been exposed to a lot of different styles of thinking (wise ones, seanchan) at this point. experience /=/ self-awareness. you might know how to build a car a certain way, for example, and have studied that one way of building a car for years, but it doesn't make it the best way, and focusing on that one style so exclusively will inevitably blind you. 



> Way to take what I say out of context. I was obviously referring to Aes Sedai in general, there are lots of them in the later books.
> 
> When I say something like "they", I am not saying every single member of that group, I am talking in general.
> 
> ...



you specifically named those aes sedai i mentioned, and addressed them as competent, and then continued the train of thought into " As the series has gone on, they have just become total cliches, and I just don't find the portrayal of them that credible." you never clarified that you were once more talking about aes sedai as a whole, rather than the aes sedai you singled out a _sentence_ beforehand. basic logic regarding english grammar would indicate that you are still talking about siuan, verin,and moiraine and their arcs in the story, so don't act like it was an unreasonable assumption for me to make.



> I thought so on my first read to, but re-reading her arcs is just painful when you see the amount of idiocy from all the other Aes Sedai.



as i've said before, the aes sedai are intentionally supposed to be flawed. they hurt the light just as much as they help it sometimes.



> That is just your interpretation. Looking at the Wot-wiki's article on the , Tuatha D? Danann, Jains and Hindus are mentioned there, nothing about romanis.



you neglected to mention that their most prominent reference on the wiki is to the irish travellers, who are certainly not a religious group. it is only their philosophy that is reminiscent of hinduism/jainism, not their status as a group. find me a quote in text that supports the tinkers as a religious group, rather than just another culture like the aiel.



> My point overall though is that there is nothing in the series of books that suggest they have a homogenous ethnicity like other races.



you do realize that there are about four tinkers described on screen (leya, aram, aram's grandparents) and three of them have been old enough that they are just described as gray, like the rest of the old people in the series? there's nothing to suggest they aren't homogenous either, we can play this game forever.



> There have been tons of isolated cultures everywhere, are you saying truly divergent people only exist among societies with outside exposure? Which, btw, the Aiel do have.



i'm saying that your definition of an individual as someone who stands against the values of their culture is unlikely to happen with the aiel because a) they live in an environment that is not suited for individualism, and b) they have little to no outside influence. selling slaves to shara does not count. they have no exchange of ideas with shara.



> Toh is self-inflicted, because they can always say that their toh has met, which Sulin demonstrated when she stopped being a servant of her own choice.



no, the repayment of toh is self-inflicted. it's a small but vital difference. in a culture like the aiel's where standing in other people's eyes is everything, someone is hardly going to shirk on their choice of when to decide their toh is met.



> That other people observing it matter doesn't change the fact that it's fundamentally a personal choice.



i don't think you understand. toh is not a personal choice anymore than the choice to follow the rules of our government is a personal choice. if you don't follow gai'shain, you are cast out. if you don't meet your toh, you are cast out. if you think of ji'e'toh as the laws that govern aiel society, it's a lot easier. society decides that you have broken a law/incurred toh. you serve your time/repay your toh. if you try to escape prison/not serve your toh, you are punished. in this way, society/aiel culture keeps functioning smoothly. this is why when the shaido break ji'e'toh later in the series it is so horrifying; it would be the same as if a state in america just decided to throw out all their laws and do whatever they wanted.



> Again, straw-manning, you are arguing against extrapolations I've never said. I said it doesn't make sense that they all collectively follow a set of rules that there is no collective that actually enforces. If you disagree with that, you're free to do so.



and i've explained that there is a collective that is enforced...it isn't that hard to understand.


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## perman07 (Oct 29, 2012)

Anony34215 said:


> no i'm pretty sure that you can do this to any character anywhere from any work of fiction if you try hard enough. that's why it's silly to even bring it up, especially for minor characters in an insanely long and character-jammed series.


Why do you say no? I stated this was a matter of opinion, there isn't really a right answer here.

However, most fantasy-readers would agree that there is a trend within fantasy that characters are for instance either good/bad. I just believe Jordan doesn't manage to completely break away from that mold into the world of grey, though there are shades of grey here and there.



> again, i'm pretty sure that if i had my books on hand i could differentiate the clan chiefs extremely easily. of course you keep insisting that they're all the same and just saying "they're the same" as proof so...


Wow, what a vague argument, now you're countering what you believe I would say...



> if you have decades of experience doing something only one wrong way, you will not necessarily think outside of that box. you'll think only in the way you have been trained to think, so it makes sense that egwene comes up with another way of thought, especially as she's been exposed to a lot of different styles of thinking (wise ones, seanchan) at this point. experience /=/ self-awareness. you might know how to build a car a certain way, for example, and have studied that one way of building a car for years, but it doesn't make it the best way, and focusing on that one style so exclusively will inevitably blind you.


I'm not disputing any of this, every point I've made has essentially been about how many people break the mold of a certain group. And among Aes Sedai, there have been too few.

Explaining why most Aes Sedai have failings is countering nothing I've actually said, cause I've never disputed most did. Egwene just seemed like a solitary bringer of common sense at times, and it's unreasonable she would be solitary among 100's of Aes Sedai with decades/centuries experience each.



> you specifically named those aes sedai i mentioned, and addressed them as competent, and then continued the train of thought into " As the series has gone on, they have just become total cliches, and I just don't find the portrayal of them that credible." you never clarified that you were once more talking about aes sedai as a whole, rather than the aes sedai you singled out a _sentence_ beforehand. basic logic regarding english grammar would indicate that you are still talking about siuan, verin,and moiraine and their arcs in the story, so don't act like it was an unreasonable assumption for me to make.


Ok, misunderstanding there, though you neglected to quote "various Aes Sedai like ..". The they there could refer to Aes Sedai as such, who I was talking about in the paragraph before that too, so to refer to basic logic is disingenuous when my sentence was ambiguous.



> as i've said before, the aes sedai are intentionally supposed to be flawed. they hurt the light just as much as they help it sometimes.


Again, I haven't argued against this. It's just you see over and over again that she's lecturing Aes Sedai about shit they should naturally get. You see it when she's dealing with the Aes Sedai in the rebel camp, you see it when she's visiting the various sisters in captivity when she's talking about Elaida and resisting her, and you see it after she becomes Amyrlin.

The Aes Sedai often have to be made to look stupid make her look smart.



> you neglected to mention that their most prominent reference on the wiki is to the irish travellers, who are certainly not a religious group. it is only their philosophy that is reminiscent of hinduism/jainism, not their status as a group. find me a quote in text that supports the tinkers as a religious group, rather than just another culture like the aiel.


What supports it is what I mentioned first, how Perrin and Egwene liked it there and would have liked to stay there. The implication being that you would remember that they could stay if they wanted, it wasn't closed off. Meaning there was an attempt to convert them, like religions do. Hang out with romanis, and they won't bring you into their group.

Perrin specifically thought about how he could see their life styles would be appealing. Everything about Tinkers in Eye of the World suggests that they try to convert people to the Way of the Leaf. Unlike most of our other discussions, which are a matter of opinion, you are flat-out wrong here.



> you do realize that there are about four tinkers described on screen (leya, aram, aram's grandparents) and three of them have been old enough that they are just described as gray, like the rest of the old people in the series? there's nothing to suggest they aren't homogenous either, we can play this game forever.


Except the fact that the absense of defining characteristics like every other ethnicity in WoT has, is in and of itself proof of absense. You won't find common descriptions of Whitecloaks either, but that doesn't mean it's beyond the realm of logic that they don't have a common ethnicity.



> i'm saying that your definition of an individual as someone who stands against the values of their culture is unlikely to happen with the aiel because a) they live in an environment that is not suited for individualism, and b) they have little to no outside influence. selling slaves to shara does not count. they have no exchange of ideas with shara.


Unlikely, nice word, I'd like you to taste that. The law of large numbers states that unlikely things will happen at a rate that converges towards it's unlikeliness the larger the number of trials becomes. In this context, that means if there are enough Aiel, there will be a certain number of divergent people. We have heard of armies of several hundred thousand Aiels, so there are probably several million of them at least.

Yet the Aiel act (when talking to wetlanders) like not following Ji'e'toh doesn't make sense, as if no one would not do it properly when exposed to it.



> i don't think you understand. toh is not a personal choice anymore than the choice to follow the rules of our government is a personal choice. if you don't follow gai'shain, you are cast out. if you don't meet your toh, you are cast out. if you think of ji'e'toh as the laws that govern aiel society, it's a lot easier. society decides that you have broken a law/incurred toh. you serve your time/repay your toh. if you try to escape prison/not serve your toh, you are punished. in this way, society/aiel culture keeps functioning smoothly. this is why when the shaido break ji'e'toh later in the series it is so horrifying; it would be the same as if a state in america just decided to throw out all their laws and do whatever they wanted.


Ok, it makes more sense like this.

But what doesn't make sense is the fact that they all have the exact same morality about it. I can understand it that they do what they have to do, in order to not be outcast. But it's obvious from the portrayal of the Aiel that they all generally believe there is an obligation to be repayed by the exact same amount when they get touched.

I guess I didn't pick up upon how it was enforced, but I still think they seem too homogenous.


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## perman07 (Oct 30, 2012)

I agree with you, just not about the Aiel


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## Nae'blis (Oct 30, 2012)

Aviendha is so full of shit. Not sure if she was being serious or taking the piss.


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## EvilMoogle (Oct 30, 2012)

I think part of looking at the dimensions of the Aiel is when you look at how they reacted to the big "secret" being let out.

Some ran away to join the traveling people.
Some became Gai'shan and refused to take off white.
Some more-or-less shrugged and moved on.
Some became "spears of the dragon" or whatever they call themselves.
Some refused to believe it and ran off to join the Shaido (whatever "bad Aiel" clan)

Even within the Shaido some of them left to join Rand becoming casteless (forget the name).


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## Maerala (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm reading through _Towers of Midnight_ for the first time, and I was completely unaware that Morgase didn't already know that Gaebril had been Rahvin. It's been like eight books, and to add insult to injury, she left Andor specifically to escape from Rahvin... right after Rand and Nynaeve kill him. I feel like this woman's only purpose in the story is to be humiliated.

Egwene vs. Mesaana coming up.


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## Nimander (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, shit. With the normal speed of this thread, I was going to respond to perman eventually, not expecting that too much would've happened in my absence.  Imagine my surprise when I was horribly wrong.

But, it was a good debate, and I'm glad I had my tiny part in bringing it about.  All that said...

I do agree with you that the Aiel were very homogenous in their views, which worked for fiction but obviously isn't the case in real life.  But, even so, when you think about the entire setting of the Aiel, the basis of their entire culture (pretty much based on guilt and reparation for some vast sin none can put their finger on) and the fact that the Waste was not a place you could survive on your own, it's not a surprise that their minds overwhelmingly ran on the same tracks as a people.  Widespread conformity under circumstances like that, especially when the Aiel as a culture was so insulated and not really exposed to diversity, isn't that much of a surprise.



Godaime Hokage said:


> I'm reading through _Towers of Midnight_ for the first time, and I was completely unaware that Morgase didn't already know that Gaebril had been Rahvin. It's been like eight books, and to add insult to injury, she left Andor specifically to escape from Rahvin... right after Rand and Nynaeve kill him. I feel like this woman's only purpose in the story is to be humiliated.
> 
> Egwene vs. Mesaana coming up.



Yeah, Morgase was the whipping child of this series.


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## perman07 (Oct 31, 2012)

EvilMoogle said:


> I think part of looking at the dimensions of the Aiel is when you look at how they reacted to the big "secret" being let out.
> 
> Some ran away to join the traveling people.
> Some became Gai'shan and refused to take off white.
> ...


This sounds like an excellent explanation for their homogeneity (some might even consider it an example of it). For instance, if one were to analyze special forces dudes in any given country, one would probably be overwhelmed by being surrounded with just badasses. Though there would be a selection process to explain how such a rare breed was everywhere there.

For the Aiel, they all seemed too universally honorable to me. In societies that care about honor around the world, there is probably just as much pettiness and lack of integrity as in those that don't (only people would attempt to hide it more), it's just that they're socially conditioned to care about how others view you.

I think I remember some Wise ones sayng only the hard core of the Aiel remained with Rand. So they would perhaps be an unnatural bunch of people because of a selection process.


DemonDragonJ said:


> So, you still believe that they are  somewhat two-dimensional, with how they are a "proud warrior  race?"


Never called them two-dimensional, said they seemed too homogenous. They all seem like mini-terminators that can run forever, fight well, withstand torture, who don't complain, and so on.

Seen any war movie? You always have one or more traumatized dudes, you have people who get affected by it all, you have your badasses, and so on.

Aiel however, are just all badass. No pettiness, no one who lacks that integrity.


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## martryn (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm not even going to attempt to read that wall of text on the previous page, but if we're talking about how believable the Aiel are as a race, I don't have much issue with it.  We have real world examples of tribes of badasses, from your native american indians to your aborigines.

The Aiel are basically fantasy versions of the fremen from Dune, and no one complains about how badass they are.


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## perman07 (Oct 31, 2012)

^Didn't say that in and of itself was unbelievable, just the lack of  variability among them.. Though it feels like I'm alone on this, so I'll  just stop


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## martryn (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, no, in that I can see your point.  For a people consisting of so many different tribes or whatever, they all seem to have the same general mindset and culture.  Even amongst the American Indian tribes, each had it's own language, way of governance, culture, traditions, lore and legends, etc, even amongst those that shared the same geographical area.  Honestly, though, one Aiel looks the same as the next.


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## masamune1 (Oct 31, 2012)

martryn said:


> Well, no, in that I can see your point.  For a people consisting of so many different tribes or whatever, they all seem to have the same general mindset and culture.  Even amongst the American Indian tribes, each had it's own language, way of governance, culture, traditions, lore and legends, etc, even amongst those that shared the same geographical area.  Honestly, though, one Aiel looks the same as the next.



Well, you could say thats much the same for most of the WoT world, though. Probably because the WoT world is post-apocalyptic and everyone knows that they were united once (or twice, if you count Artur Hawking). Its not quite the same situation as the real world.


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## perman07 (Oct 31, 2012)

^Fantasy or science fiction are almost never realistic when it comes to the language bit. I think Hawkwing's empire happened 1000 years before the books or something, more than enough time for language to diverge in different directions, yet they all speak the same language.

For instance, I think Scandinavia is considered to be under one language (Old Norse) before the middle ages (which were considered to have started around 800-1000 AD in Scandinavia I believe), but that diverged into 4 languages, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and Icelandic. Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are mostly understandable to one another, but Icelandic isn't even understandable to the other 3. 

It makes sense that fantasy authors would have different peoples/races understand one another, it simplifies the plot and the writing, but it creates a false separation between countries because one of the major reasons why countries diverge in culture (in the real world I mean) is because of having different languages.


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## EvilMoogle (Oct 31, 2012)

You also have to remember that we pretty much only see the warrior-Aiel (clan chiefs) and the Wise Ones.

They talk about "civilian" Aiel from time to time (blacksmiths vs. silversmiths etc) but I can't think of any of them actually getting "screen time."

So it's kind of like looking at the Marines and Army and trying to extrapolate their behavior to the entire US population.  Some things work, others are (at the very least) exaggerated.


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## masamune1 (Oct 31, 2012)

perman07 said:


> ^Fantasy or science fiction are almost never realistic when it comes to the language bit. I think Hawkwing's empire happened 1000 years before the books or something, more than enough time for language to diverge in different directions, yet they all speak the same language.
> 
> For instance, I think Scandinavia is considered to be under one language (Old Norse) before the middle ages (which were considered to have started around 800-1000 AD in Scandinavia I believe), but that diverged into 4 languages, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian and Icelandic. Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are mostly understandable to one another, but Icelandic isn't even understandable to the other 3.
> 
> It makes sense that fantasy authors would have different peoples/races understand one another, it simplifies the plot and the writing, but it creates a false separation between countries because one of the major reasons why countries diverge in culture (in the real world I mean) is because of having different languages.



But again, Scandavia and real-life countries were not descended from a global utopia where everyone seemed to speak the same language already. I also imagine that the Aes Sedai and others (who, also, live for hundreds of years) would have helped keep civilization alive. Its a very different scenario.

I know that simplifying the cultures and languages happens in most epic fantasy to make it easier to write and read; but still, WoT is more justified than most.


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## Cyphon (Oct 31, 2012)

For me it is pretty simple. Fantasy is supposed to give us something different from the real world, thus the name fantasy. So the Aiel not being like our real world cultures and nations and what not is no problem for me. Not that I am against having a problem with the way they are written, just throwing in my 2 cents on the topic.

On a similar topic, has anyone here read the Warded Man (also called the Painted Man IIRC)? There is a group in the 2nd book that really reminded me of the Aiel when I read it. Not sure if they were inspired by them or not and it has been a long time since I did read those books, but as I said, they really seemed similar.


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## martryn (Oct 31, 2012)

> They talk about "civilian" Aiel from time to time (blacksmiths vs. silversmiths etc) but I can't think of any of them actually getting "screen time."
> 
> So it's kind of like looking at the Marines and Army and trying to extrapolate their behavior to the entire US population. Some things work, others are (at the very least) exaggerated.



More like you look at the infantry units or spec ops and extrapolate that same level of badassness to the rest of the forces, including the water purifiers, cooks, and office workers.  They're all combat trained, but some are trained for combat.  Or is it the other way around?



> But again, Scandavia and real-life countries were not descended from a global utopia where everyone seemed to speak the same language already. I also imagine that the Aes Sedai and others (who, also, live for hundreds of years) would have helped keep civilization alive. Its a very different scenario.



That global utopia collapsed several thousand years ago.  That's like comparing the area occupied by the Roman Empire and the massive population that spoke Latin, to Latin speakers today.


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## masamune1 (Oct 31, 2012)

martryn said:


> That global utopia collapsed several thousand years ago.  That's like comparing the area occupied by the Roman Empire and the massive population that spoke Latin, to Latin speakers today.



The peoples of the Roman Empire spoke dozens of languages (if not hundreds). And all of them existed independently before the Romans came along and annexed them and already had their own languages and customs. Lots of places would have barely noticed they were Roman, let alone spoke Latin. 

Contrast that to what is, so far as we know, an entire world with a single language and culture (not counting Ogiers, and even then). A world that collapsed due to the concentrated efforts of a single determined apocalyptic enemy, whose servants survived his defeat and still wrecked havoc acrossed the land afterwards, and ongoing consequences that affected everyone near-equally (men with the Power going crazy, Trollocs etc.). Add to that a powerful elite of women who possess incredible magical powers and live for centuries determined to enforce some kind of status quo, and the presence of a man who carved out an empire reuniting everyone for a time...

Point is, its a very different situation.


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## martryn (Oct 31, 2012)

Perhaps it's the longevity of the Aes Sedai that kept the peoples of the world speaking one language.  When you have a constant, unchanging presence in your midst for a dozen generations, it's hard to develop new languages.


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## Maerala (Oct 31, 2012)

Although it does seem like societies who had little or no contact with the Westlands for thousands of years would have at least developed a different dialect. I think Jordan was very aware of this issue and tried to do something about it with the Seanchan by giving them their distinctive drawl, which frankly should be enough. Not everyone can be Tolkien and, as I see it, it doesn't detract from the overall quality of the series. It would be unnecessarily complicated to get all sides communicating properly if they spoke completely different languages.


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## perman07 (Oct 31, 2012)

^He has jokingly given different nations different corresponding dialects from English (not canon, just answers to fan questions), here's the list:

Seanchan -> Texas accent. Two Rivers ->  Irish/English accent. Illianers -> Dutch. Aiel -> somewhat Slavic.  Tairen -> Spanish. Domani -> Indian. Saldaean ->  Egyptian/North African.


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## Cyphon (Nov 4, 2012)

Just finished up _The Shadow Rising_. This has to be the best book for me so far. I thought the others all had great moments and were mostly good but this one is where the series really just went to a whole other level IMO. I think page turner applies to TSR moreso than the others as well. I just didn't want to put it down. 

I need to step my pace up a bit more though to make sure I am ready for January.


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## Nimander (Nov 4, 2012)

The series was originally intended to be a trilogy (in classic fantasy style) so Jordan didn't really put in as much effort, relatively speaking in the first three.  It's when The Shadow Rising came out that Jordan kinda got settled in for the long haul, really put in work developing the mechanics of the One Power, elaborating on culture and pretty much doing everything that made the series so likable in the first place.


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## martryn (Nov 4, 2012)

> The series was originally intended to be a trilogy (in classic fantasy style) so Jordan didn't really put in as much effort, relatively speaking in the first three. It's when The Shadow Rising came out that Jordan kinda got settled in for the long haul, really put in work developing the mechanics of the One Power, elaborating on culture and pretty much doing everything that made the series so likable in the first place.



I actually thought the first four books were strong, and  the series has gone downhill since then.  It's the same with most series that go on this long.


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## Ishamael (Nov 4, 2012)

The first four books were definitely the strongest. The series slows down drastically towards the end of LoC and its almost a crawl afterwards until TGS.


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## Nimander (Nov 5, 2012)

To me, the first three books did an incredible job of setting up the series.  4,5 and 6 were, to me the best from what I can remember of things.  And it's afterwards that the quality kinda started dipping.  I didn't mind the pace of the series slowing that much, until it got to a certain point (Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart) that I could say things were legitimately dragging out more than I liked.


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## Maerala (Nov 5, 2012)

I loved the first three as well. They got me hooked pretty badly. TEOTW was amazing and probably my favorite book of all time. I mostly hated TSR, though, except for a few epic moments (Rand vs. Asmodean; Siuan being deposed; Lanfear showing up at Rhuidean and shielding Asmodean); it took me a couple of months to get through it. TFOH I remember being pretty badass, particularly Rand and Moiraine vs. Lanfear and the battle at Caemlyn. The books that followed weren't as enjoyable as the others, though. _Crossroads of Twilight_ was especially bad; my only memory of it is a bunch of people reacting to the cleansin of _saidin_.

Things have really picked up since TGS, though. Sanderson's done a pretty bang up job. I'm almost done with _Towers of Midnight_; just read through the battle scenes at _Tel'aran'rhiod_ and done jizzed myself. Although the bit where Egwene and Perrin met for a second and both thought the other was completely ignorant about the World of Dreams was . Reminds me of the horrible lack of communication between Jordan's characters.


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## Cyphon (Nov 5, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> I mostly hated TSR, though, except for a few epic moments (Rand vs. Asmodean; Siuan being deposed; Lanfear showing up at Rhuidean and shielding Asmodean); it took me a couple of months to get through it.



No way! You hated it?

You didn't like Rand going through the Aiel history? Or anything with Perrin and the 2 Rivers and White Cloaks? Discovering more about Thoms past and connection to Elayne? 

I ain't mad at you but I thought almost every plot line was interesting, if not all of them.


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## Maerala (Nov 5, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> No way! You hated it?
> 
> You didn't like Rand going through the Aiel history? Or anything with Perrin and the 2 Rivers and White Cloaks? Discovering more about Thoms past and connection to Elayne?
> 
> I ain't mad at you but I thought almost every plot line was interesting, if not all of them.



Is TSR the book where the Trollocs invade the Two Rivers and everyone in Emond's Field fights them off? It's been so long. If it is, then I'll change hate to moderate dislike.  That was one of my favorite moments in the whole series, especially when the women joined in and the description of Verin fighting with her hair down (ilikethesmalldetails). Oh, and Selene revealing her true identity was pretty badass too.

I did think Rand going to Rhuidean would interest me, but once he got there it wasn't really all that for me. I did like the scene where he sees Couladin claw out his eyes and eat them, though.

Every book has its epic moments, and while TSR had its fair share, I also thought it was especially slow (compared to its predecessors). I don't believe anything of importance happens early on, the first main event being the assault on the Stone of Tear by the Trollocs around two hundred pages in.


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## perman07 (Nov 5, 2012)

One of my favorite scenes from TSR is when Rand is owning Elayne and Egwene (didn't used to mind her, but when she became Miss 'Egwene may be a child, but the seat is ancient', she became so annoying in her self-righteousness and Mary Stu-ness).


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## Maerala (Nov 5, 2012)

I literally just read that a few hours ago, but surely her uselessness in the first few books makes up for her newfound holier-than-thou attitude. It's the opposite for me, I used to hate her, but she's one of my favorites now. I admit she does come off as a bit of a Mary Sue, but I think there's a balance in that because of how stupid she was in the beginning. When she broke Mesaana's mind...


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## Cyphon (Nov 5, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Is TSR the book where the Trollocs invade the Two Rivers and everyone in Emond's Field fights them off?



Yup. A very good part. I also liked that Loial ran of with Gual to close the gate even considering all of the trollocs and such. 

Oh, and the description of Loial holding 2 axes ready for the fight. 

And Aram fufilling Mins vision by taking up the sword. 



perman07 said:


> One of my favorite scenes from TSR is when Rand is owning Elayne and Egwene (didn't used to mind her, but when she became Miss 'Egwene may be a child, but the seat is ancient', she became so annoying in her self-righteousness and Mary Stu-ness).



Yeah, I liked this scene as well but if I am remembering the scene right there is one even more bad ass in the later books with Rand involving Egwene.


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## perman07 (Nov 5, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> I literally just read that a few hours ago, but surely her uselessness in the first few books makes up for her newfound holier-than-thou attitude. It's the opposite for me, I used to hate her, but she's one of my favorites now. I admit she does come off as a bit of a Mary Sue, but I think there's a balance in that because of how stupid she was in the beginning. When she broke Mesaana's mind...


I loved her parts after she got captured when I read them the 1st time, however, upon rereading it, since I wasn't being overwhelmed by the awesome plot I could fully appreciate how arrogant and superior she had become. How even Siuan sometimes is made to look like a fool so Egwene can be right when they discuss something, how she actually thinks things like "Egwene may like Rand, but the Amyrlin Seat has to deal with the Dragon Reborn" (or however she said it).

And there's that disgusting scene (several books earlier) where she makes Nyneave drink that brew because Nyneave was lying (while she was hiding shit herself) and how she's pleased afterwards that she managed to dominate her.

At least with Elayne and Nyneave (who both have their own arrogant, self-righteous sides, Jordan writes lots of women like annoyances for some reason), we get to see them proven wrong, failing and appearing human. Egwene on the other hand seems all-knowing for some reason.


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## Maerala (Nov 5, 2012)

I would've agreed a few hours ago but I just read the part where Egwene comes back from _Tel'aran'rhiod_ after the confrontation with the Black Ajah to find Gawyn half-dead on the floor. He'd almost died protecting her from the Seanchan Bloodknives.

"_I should be dead_, she realized. If Gawyn hadn't stopped these assassins, she would've been murdered in her sleep and would have vanished from _Tel'aran'rhiod_. She'd never have defeated Mesaana. Suddenly, she felt a fool, any sense of victory completely evaporating."

She goes on to bond him and admits he was right to disobey her. Granted, this is about the only example I can come up with of her having screwed up recently, and it's not even a very big deal, but it does happen. 

I agree it sucks how Jordan makes Siuan look retarded in order to paint Egwene favorably, though. Hate when authors do that.


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## martryn (Nov 6, 2012)

All women in the novels suck.  Excepting maybe Min.  And later in the series Nynaeve.  Hell, Moiraine looks good, too, compared to how the other women eventually start to act constantly.


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## Type Fallstar (Nov 6, 2012)

Anyone know when the last book comes out?


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## Damaris (Nov 6, 2012)

Type Fallstar said:


> Anyone know when the last book comes out?


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## Maerala (Nov 6, 2012)

martryn said:


> All women in the novels suck.  Excepting maybe Min.  And later in the series Nynaeve.  Hell, Moiraine looks good, too, compared to how the other women eventually start to act constantly.



I agree that most of the women are terrible, but there are plenty who were, have become, or have always been pretty great characters, imo. Moiraine and Verin, of course. Graendal, Silviana, Morgase on occasion. Siuan before being stilled. Faile was terrible at first but she was awesome in Malden. Egwene may be a bit of a self-righteous bitch from time to time now but she's become a badass. Elaida was a really fun character, I thought. And Lanfear.

It depends on how you define suck. A lot of them are terrible people or have unappealing personality traits, but they're still well-written characters.



Type Fallstar said:


> Anyone know when the last book comes out?



January 8th.


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## martryn (Nov 7, 2012)

Verin in the last book was fantastic.  She's probably another exception.


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## Cyphon (Nov 13, 2012)

I remember the Aiel discussion that was had a few pages back and saw this in _The Fires of Heaven_.

""The Breaking of the World killed the weak," he had hear Bael say, "and the Three-fold Land killed the cowards.""

Not sure if anyone quoted this during the discussion or not but it seems the issue was addressed in the book.


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## Damaris (Nov 14, 2012)

> nynaeve = sylph of life
> mat = rogue of light
> rand = knight of doom/hope ( cant decide tbh)
> 
> now i want 2 do erryones



imported from the homestuck thread
tell me one of you reads homestuck and will help me finish this


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## Nae'blis (Nov 15, 2012)

Godaime Hokage said:


> I agree that most of the women are terrible, but there are plenty who were, have become, or have always been pretty great characters, imo. Moiraine and Verin, of course. Graendal, Silviana, Morgase on occasion. Siuan before being stilled. Faile was terrible at first but she was awesome in Malden. Egwene may be a bit of a self-righteous bitch from time to time now but she's become a badass. Elaida was a really fun character, I thought. And Lanfear.
> 
> It depends on how you define suck. A lot of them are terrible people or have unappealing personality traits, but they're still well-written characters.
> 
> ...



Graendal failed horribly in the last two books. Her character was built up as someone who was leagues above everyone else in intelligence and plots, but all she really cares about are her beautiful toys. She has nothing beyond that. I was so fucking disappointed. I hated the scene where she got Aran'gar killed. Firstly, if she didn't want Rand to know where she was she shouldn't have used Aran'gar for compulsion. She should have known Rand would attack anywhere he thought Forsaken were at. Even worse is that she made the other Aes'sedai make the saidar weaves and still thought that killing Aran'gar was useful. What purpose was there to adding saidin weaves to the compulsion if she didn't want Rand to know that she was there? I fucking hate what the authors did with her character. She should have died seven books ago if all she is useful for is incompetence. 

The only truly awesome Aes'sedai is Moraine and Nyneave. Verin as well to a lesser extent. But every other woman who calls herself Aes'sedai is a horrible cunt who should die in fire, including Elayne/Egwene. The women are not well written at all. Unless his goal was to make them as obnoxious and worthy of rape&death as possible.


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## perman07 (Nov 15, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> The only truly awesome Aes'sedai is Moraine and Nyneave. Verin as well to a lesser extent. But every other woman who calls herself Aes'sedai is a horrible cunt who should die in fire, including Elayne/Egwene. *The women are not well written at all. Unless his goal was to make them as obnoxious as possible.*


I can sort of see where he is coming from though Women do nag more, and complain more in my experience, and are generally more annoying (though men are generally worse people, so I'm not complaining). That might make me sound like a misogynist, but that's just my experience.

The thing is though, very many women don't nag and complain, and even the women that do probably save it for the people close to them. Jordan has written it as if most women are annoying most of the time


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## Cyphon (Nov 20, 2012)

Finished _The Fires of Heaven_. 

For me it is the weakest in the series so far. I just couldn't get into most of the chick stuff going on throughout. Rand and Mat's stuff was always pretty good IIRC but the other parts weren't doing it. My favorite things about it have to be Rands balance between crazy and sane, Mat becoming a general and Asmodean getting taken out in the end. I did miss Perrin in this book. I don't mind a lot of viewpoints but not at the expense of one of my favorites.


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## Nimander (Nov 21, 2012)

Was reading the TVTropes article on the series, and now I want to read it all over again. Despite me having just done that a few months ago.

It irks me how much stuff I missed despite two read-throughs already, plus it would be a good refresher for MoL in a month and a half.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 22, 2012)

Nimander said:


> Was reading the TVTropes article on the series, and now I want to read it all over again. Despite me having just done that a few months ago.


This has been kicking my ass despite rereads.


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## perman07 (Nov 23, 2012)

When you say "kicking your ass", you mean it's good and we should check it out?


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## KidTony (Nov 23, 2012)

i love leigh. I always wait patiently for fridays so i can read her ASOIF first-time reader recaps.


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## Nimander (Nov 23, 2012)

How's that for cosmic coincidence? I JUST now came across that blog this week after being linked to it from TVTropes.

I did read a bit of it, and have to say I loved her take on the story. Perfectly snarky, yet pretty astute in her analysis.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Nov 23, 2012)

perman07 said:


> When you say "kicking your ass", you mean it's good and we should check it out?


Picking up on things that I overlook. But yes, very good.


KidTony said:


> i love leigh. I always wait patiently for fridays so i can read her ASOIF first-time reader recaps.


Supposedly there's an Aiel named after her in the later books.


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## Nimander (Nov 25, 2012)

Also heard that HBO is considering picking up the rights for this to make into a series. While this would be VASTLY better than trying to make this into a series of movies, as they'd be able to pay attention to the smaller details in the stories that make them enjoyable, I would kinda worry that the network would try to inflict it with a dose of "darker and edgier" that really doesn't belong to it. 

ASOIaF didn't need this, as it already had plenty to begin with and kinda fit HBO perfectly. With the WoT though, the darker moments are overall more implied than outright stated, so as not to detract from the rest of the story.

So while I would, for the first time ever, probably subscribe to HBO if this ever happened, I still have mixed feelings about it.


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## Cyphon (Nov 25, 2012)

Nimander said:


> Also heard that HBO is considering picking up the rights for this to make into a series. While this would be VASTLY better than trying to make this into a series of movies, as they'd be able to pay attention to the smaller details in the stories that make them enjoyable, I would kinda worry that the network would try to inflict it with a dose of "darker and edgier" that really doesn't belong to it.
> 
> ASOIaF didn't need this, as it already had plenty to begin with and kinda fit HBO perfectly. With the WoT though, the darker moments are overall more implied than outright stated, so as not to detract from the rest of the story.
> 
> So while I would, for the first time ever, probably subscribe to HBO if this ever happened, I still have mixed feelings about it.



100% agreed. 

Lot of nudity in WoT though so I guess HBO would be a good fit as far as that is concerned so long as they keep it classy like they did in the book.


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## Ruby Moon (Nov 25, 2012)

Nearly finished with Winter's Heart. Oh, Mat...


*Spoiler*: _Winter's Heart_ 



"She is my wife. She is my wife. Your bloody Daughter of the Nine Moons is my wife!"




It's been too easy to burn through these books within less than a week, so I've tried to stretch it out in chapters of 5 each day. Hopefully book 10 will be longer. 



Nimander said:


> Also heard that HBO is considering picking up the rights for this to make into a series. While this would be VASTLY better than trying to make this into a series of movies, as they'd be able to pay attention to the smaller details in the stories that make them enjoyable, I would kinda worry that the network would try to inflict it with a dose of "darker and edgier" that really doesn't belong to it.
> 
> ASOIaF didn't need this, as it already had plenty to begin with and kinda fit HBO perfectly. With the WoT though, the darker moments are overall more implied than outright stated, so as not to detract from the rest of the story.
> 
> So while I would, for the first time ever, probably subscribe to HBO if this ever happened, I still have mixed feelings about it.



A series like this would attract a lot of attention. Good thing it's not being made into movies, at least. A television series, though...I dunno. Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire I can understand, but...come on. The Wheel of Time series has thirteen books so far, and the next book is coming out next year, if it isn't broken up into two other books, since it was said to be really, _really_, REALLY long. 

As for details...yeah, I don't think it would be enough to cram a few chapters, let alone one (damn, Jordan wrote a lot!), in a single episode. HBO can try to make this into a series, but I don't think it'd be doable. It would boost book sales for Jordan's fantastic series.


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## perman07 (Nov 25, 2012)

I wish we had the culture for animation that the Japanese do. In the west we only animate shit for children or comedy (like Simpsons or South park). I personally think animating the entire WoT series in a similar fashion to how animes animate mangas would be the best way to go here.

WoT is so large in scope that any live action adaptation inevitably will turn the scope down to make it manageable.

Also, the most important characters range from 16-23 as the series goes on. 1 season would be 1-2 books max, so this show would need to be 6-13 seasons long and would probably take a little bit more than 6-13 years to create given the logistic problems of filming shit in a fantasy world.

An animation would simplify all this and could totally be awesome and manageable, yet I don't think that's even an option since there are no examples of animated fantasy-type shows doing well. And I personally think the main reason that is, is because animated fantasy-type shows have never been made well in the West. Had Game of thrones been animated on HBO, I think it would have had decent ratings (probably not as good as the current show, but still good).

If shit's animated in the West, people tend to automatically assume it's childish. Comedy can be childish, so nobody reacts there, but if you tell people you like anime and such, many people think you are into watching cartoons for kids (which albeit, many shonen by a defition probably are).


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## Ruby Moon (Nov 26, 2012)

^ You speak truth. 

Besides, how is HBO supposed to do the special effects of _saidar_ and _saidin_ when Rand or Egwene or Moiraine channel? An animated series would be much better than a live-action television adaptation.


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## martryn (Nov 26, 2012)

My friends and I all agree that the only way that WoT could be done in a series is for that series to be animated.  Which isn't likely.  HBO wouldn't have the budget for it.  I think it would be popular if they did try for a series, but with budgeting concerns the series would either look like crap or only last two or three seasons and end without resolution.  

An animated Wheel of Time would eliminate all the concerns with character aging, special effects, and budget, but wouldn't draw the audience of live action, so it's probably never going to happen, either.  Wheel of Time just isn't something cut out for any non-novel format.  Even the comics haven't had any luck.


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## perman07 (Nov 26, 2012)

^Ehm, wouldn't have the budget?

First of all, the issue here is how much an animated show would earn, so budget is completely contingent on that.

The reason for instance Naruto and One Piece have shows that are still ongoing is because they have a large enough audience to sustain themselves. So you saying HBO doesn't have the money for it is bullshit unless you know for a fact that WoT animated wouldn't earn sufficiently.

Another factor is also how high end the animation would be. I don't think the audience would demand Pixar level quality here, so that could be scaled based on popularity.

I personally think this could work, and that being willing to gamble is the central issue, cause this would fundamentally be an experiment in something that hasn't been attempted, but which could very well make money.


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## EvilMoogle (Nov 26, 2012)

The main problem any medium has for the Wheel of Time is it gets somewhat hopelessly complex by the end.

You've got thousands of named characters, over a hundred with significant roles.  Multiple multiple political factions each with their on motivations and plots going on at the same time.

Just off the top of my head things-that-need-to-happen in Book 13 for _just_ Rand:

*Spoiler*: __ 




- Rand and the Aes Sedai come to terms
- Rand and the Seanchan come to terms
- Moraine tracks down Rand
- Aviendha tracks down Rand and convinces him to save the Aiel
- Rand leads his forces to the last battle
- Rand confronts Mordin at the last battle
- Rand "dies" at the last battle.
- Rand leads the Aes Sedai/Asha'man to resealing/healing/etc the Dark One's Prison (And/Or Rand confronts the Dark One)



Most of those would more or less dominate an episode so we're talking 1/3rd of as season just for those.

Then when you figure Perrin and Mat and Thom and Egwene and Elayne and Nyneve and ... all have lists of their own it gets ugly fast.

So you have 3 options:
- Cram everything into the episodes (makes them feel crowded and convoluted)
- Cut content so that you can fit the things you need in (best option really, but it takes some of the feel from it and you need to start planning in Season 1 what stuff you'll need to cut so you don't have a bunch of loose ends come Season 13)
- Split 'A Memory of Light' into two seasons (how many 14-season shows can you name?  There's a handful of them and I suppose if you make it to season 12 you can try this pitch).

Worse you have to consider the episodic nature of shows, you need to be able to have "clean" breaks (at least most of the time) for the end of episodes.  You also need to make sure your action and drama are spread out so that each episode has a clear point (a show has to feel like something happened in the show).


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## Ruby Moon (Nov 27, 2012)

^ EvilMoogle, no spoilers please  Not all of us have read up to the latest book. 

Otherwise, it's pretty much as you've said. There are factions within factions within factions, and there's really only so much that can be remembered and contained in a single episode. Viewers will end up trying to dig up hidden meaning within meaning instead of enjoying the show, because it will be just too damn confusing. They may end up thinking that this show is meant for "geeks" and "nerds" - but really, it's just a whole bunch of entertainment. This is fantasy, after all. While _Harry Potter_ made it successfully into mainstream media, the Wheel of Time is different.


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## EvilMoogle (Nov 27, 2012)

It's been out for years now, probably shouldn't enter a thread on the series without having read them 

But yeah, the early books would work well as a TV series.  But by book 4 or so you have so many different threads going on that you'd end up with a mess (not to mention the headache you'd get from characters not appearing for weeks or even seasons and then showing back up and expecting people to remember who they are and what they were up to).

You'd pretty much either need to gut it down to "the Rand show" or have several spin-off series going on at the same time (and *cough* good luck getting the budget approval for that).  Even if you did "the Rand show" it would end up feeling artificial when other characters show back up seasons later in radically different positions.


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## Nimander (Nov 27, 2012)

A lot of you brought up points I didn't even think of, most of which deal with why this would be a BAD idea. Same with if they were made into movies. Now that I think about it, it's rare that I've come across a fantasy series that would cross over well into another medium.  The Codex Alera is probably the only one I've read in recent years that I thought, "This would make a kickass movie." But as a whole for high fantasy, books really are the best medium.

Though, I did read the New Spring comic that came out a few years back, and that was a VERY enjoyable read. Especially the work of the first artist. Seeing the story actually artistically represented and in sequential order gave me much of the same enjoyment I would've watching it. Which is why I can also agree with animation being a pretty good idea as well.


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## perman07 (Nov 27, 2012)

Well, I don't think the split up storylines are necessarily that much of a problem. If it's one thing TV can do seamlessly, it's to cut between different storylines (cutting doesn't work as well in books I believe where entire chapters are usually done from 1 perspective). There are usually 3-5 storylines, those being Rand, Mat and Perrin + 1 or 2 of the girls.

What would be more of a problem would be the boring books between 6 and 11 where Faile, Elayne and so on just suck the fun out of the books.

And think how much time an adaptation of WoT will save just on there being no descriptions of throne rooms, dresses, and environment in general


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## Cyphon (Nov 30, 2012)

Finished _Lord of Chaos_. 

I am thinking this one is in close competition with _The Shadow Rising_ for the best in the series. That is especially good considering the drop from TSR to _Fires of Heaven_. I guess now I get to the point where people start complaining about the series so I shall see if it is as bad as they say. 

Anyway, things I liked about LoC. 

- Rand's meetings with the Aes Sedai at various points. I love the way he handled them, until he was tricked of course. He did soften up a little too much for my taste once he escaped and basically clubbed them all but that was made up for again when he last talked to the Salidar reps. One of my favorite things happened then when Taim steps up and says "Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt". 

- I actually gained some respect for Egwene in this book. The way she handled her toh obligation before leaving the Wise Ones and how well she handled her initial time as Amyrlin. I liked how she wasn't pushed around and quickly took control.

- Along those same lines I love when Matt first finds out and gets into the camp and is in with Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve. All of his parts in the book were entertaining but this one stood out. Also when he hit on Siuan 

- Definitely was digging the Black Tower and getting more into the Saidin side of things. Rand making the ranks, him and Taim's relationship and even Logain being healed. He didn't have a major role but I was excited about the possibilities of it. 

- Same thing with the Forsaken. We really started to get looks into their motivations and how they operated which was interesting as well. Nothing really good but still a nice insight into it. Especially in the Epilogue with Arangar and the mysteries around her/him. 

- It was also nice to see Perrin getting a role back. I always like what goes on around him and just his character overall.


Above all else (I think) is Rand's character. Something about his balance between crazy and sane, normal and Dragon Reborn, hard and soft etc....Just seems so well done to me. I have never really paid too much attention to character development or maybe never enough to notice but I really like what was done with Rand and it is engaging.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 2, 2012)

how do people feel about the fact that the Seanchan (who i personally pretty much hate, being that they're slavers, hugely arrogant about their abominable society, _really_ rigid in class customs, and also annoyingly superstitious) are apparently going to have to be pacified

as in, rand's going to have to make an accommodation with them (though i will spit blood if he actually kneels before the crystal throne), and the aiel are going to have to tolerate them or perish? going by aviendha's vision, anyway

i mean, if any single race in WoT deserves to be wiped off the face of the earth for the sheer repugnance of what they do, it's the seanchan


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 2, 2012)

Pretty sure Mat as Prince of the Ravens isn't going to sit idle.


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 2, 2012)

but what can he really change among the seanchan? his power derives from tuon, and tuon is dead set on making rand kneel, leashing all aes sedai, etc.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 3, 2012)

^ Wonder if Tuon's tone will change when she finds out she can channel


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 3, 2012)

ah, yeah, i forgot about that. actually quite looking forward to her endlessly patronising behaviour being replaced by denial and hysterics


----------



## Damaris (Dec 3, 2012)

tuon knows she can learn to channel, she dismissed it as the fact that she doesn't _have_ to learn, given that she obviously won't start channeling like a spark channeler.


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 3, 2012)

she knows? when's this stated? i must've missed it


----------



## Damaris (Dec 3, 2012)

i can't remember the book, although i think it was maybe knife of dreams/gathering storm? but she compared choosing to not learn to channel to choosing not to steal or murder iirc


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 3, 2012)

oh, yeah, found it. KoD chapter 10. that's so pathetically specious of her...of course she'd look at this revelation, which is pretty much a paradigm shift for the seanchan, and come out the other side with her warped worldview completely intact.

and the annoying part is that being mat's love interest, she is pretty well plot-armoured from death, now.


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 3, 2012)

The series isn't going to end with every AS becoming damane/marath'damane and high lords/ladies da'covale 


Anony34215 said:


> i can't remember the book, although i think it was maybe knife of dreams/gathering storm? but she compared choosing to not learn to channel to choosing not to steal or murder iirc



I loved that scene, when the AS come into her wagon haughty. Didn't end quite how they wanted it to.


----------



## Luna (Dec 4, 2012)

Is this series at all worth checking out?


----------



## Damaris (Dec 4, 2012)

short answer: yes
long answer: yes


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## Luna (Dec 4, 2012)

Works for me!


----------



## EvilMoogle (Dec 4, 2012)

And when he says _long_ answer... 

I'm hoping I can finish reading through a recap summery of the series before the last book comes out


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 5, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> The series isn't going to end with every AS becoming damane/marath'damane and high lords/ladies da'covale



No, I sincerely hope that that does not occur, and I also hope that the Seanchan (or at least a significant portion of them) renounce their practice of enslaving women who can channel as _Damane,_ as that practice is cruel and horrific, in my mind. If Tuon is romantically-involved with Mat, might he be able to convince her to call off the attack on Tar Valon, as he now has _Aes Sedai_ among his friends and allies? Surely, from her time traveling with him, Tuon has learned that people who can channel are as human as those who cannot, and that it is morally wrong to enslave them?


----------



## Ruby Moon (Dec 5, 2012)

Finished _Crossroads of Twilight_, now moving on to Knife of Dreams. The epilogue of book 10 gave me the shivers. Best of all was this: 


*Spoiler*: _Crossroads of Twilight_ 



' "Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky." '


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 5, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> No, I sincerely hope that that does not occur, and I also hope that the Seanchan (or at least a significant portion of them) renounce their practice of enslaving women who can channel as _Damane,_ as that practice is cruel and horrific, in my mind. If Tuon is romantically-involved with Mat, might he be able to convince her to call off the attack on Tar Valon, as he now has _Aes Sedai_ among his friends and allies? Surely, from her time traveling with him, Tuon has learned that people who can channel are as human as those who cannot, and that it is morally wrong to enslave them?



I don't remember that she planned another attack on Tar Valon. And even if she did, I wonder how that battle would turn out. The AS are pretty useless when it comes to battle weaves; even the Green Ajah reach the height of their imagination with mere fireballs. The one thing in their favour is that the seanchan will be thinking to capture marath'damane, and also the Seanchan are unable to form circles.

When Tuon was leaving at the end of _Knife of Dreams_, she thought about the conversations she had with Setalle Anan and hadn't conceded that channelers need to be leashed. But I think those conversations at least started her in the right direction.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Dec 6, 2012)

I don't think either Aes Sedai or Damane really have much experience fighting other channelers.

But fireballs are pretty dang useful against mass ground troops.


----------



## perman07 (Dec 6, 2012)

What the Aes Sedai have that the damane don't have is the ability to link. Egwene's strategy during the attack on the tower would have worked on everyone else too if they weren't caught off guard.

So even if Aes Sedai individually are not very impressive, as a collective with all their angreal and san'angreal and linking, they are probably more powerful than every other organization of channelers in the world IMO (and that includes both the Seanchan Damane and the Black Tower). Just a theory of course.

Since we know 13 female channelers are more powerful than 1 Rand (maybe that's not true with the new Rand though considering Maradon, but more powerful than the old Rand at least), that means the White Tower composed in x number of circles would be more powerful than x old Rands, which is insanely powerful.


----------



## Damaris (Dec 6, 2012)

ughhhhhhhh i can't remember how far this knowledge has spread, but iirc the main female channelers (aviendha, nynaeve, elayne, you know who i'm talking about etc) had learned to invert/hide their weaves completely, as well as masking their ability to channel. depending on how much of the white tower knows that technique, that pretty much tips the battle vs the seanchan damane in their favor, i think.


this is thep roblem with how long these bloody books are i get my head all twisted up about who knows what


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## Lucaniel (Dec 6, 2012)

perman07 said:


> What the Aes Sedai have that the damane don't have is the ability to link. Egwene's strategy during the attack on the tower would have worked on everyone else too if they weren't caught off guard.
> 
> So even if Aes Sedai individually are not very impressive, as a collective with all their angreal and san'angreal and linking, they are probably more powerful than every other organization of channelers in the world IMO (and that includes both the Seanchan Damane and the Black Tower). Just a theory of course.
> 
> Since we know 13 female channelers are more powerful than 1 Rand (maybe that's not true with the new Rand though considering Maradon, but more powerful than the old Rand at least), that means the White Tower composed in x number of circles would be more powerful than x old Rands, which is insanely powerful.



thing about channelers is, they have to see the threat coming to counter it (might seem a bit obvious as an observation, but bear with me)

so if you have a good, unseen two rivers bowman shooting from high up - i essentially mean a sniper, though the term is anachronistic in context - you can kill one out of every circle of 13 that forms, and forever keep rand from being taken that way

of course a sniper is a good anti-sedai precaution in most contexts, not just the specific circle of 13 one. i hope sanderson implements it, because the point really should be made that channeling might be great, but it's hardly the end of everything


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## Damaris (Dec 6, 2012)

i think mat's cannons are really going to fuck channelers up
can't remember if they know about those or not yet


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## Lucaniel (Dec 6, 2012)

i completely forgot about the cannons 

never mind the bowmen, then


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## Damaris (Dec 6, 2012)

well when they're so busy defending against the cannons, they'll forget the bowmen ! and the two rivers will rise up


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## perman07 (Dec 6, 2012)

Lucaniel said:


> thing about channelers is, they have to see the  threat coming to counter it (might seem a bit obvious as an  observation, but bear with me)
> 
> so if you have a good, unseen two rivers bowman shooting from high up - i  essentially mean a sniper, though the term is anachronistic in context -  you can kill one out of every circle of 13 that forms, and forever keep  rand from being taken that way
> 
> of course a sniper is a good anti-sedai precaution in most contexts, not  just the specific circle of 13 one. i hope sanderson implements it,  because the point really should be made that channeling might be great,  but it's hardly the end of everything


We saw how much a regular army could do to an army of channelers in Lord Of Chaos.. The Ashaman didn't even link, but just formed a dome of air around them that thousands of Aiel couldn't get through.

Whenever you have an army of channelers, I suspect nothing can attack them through stealth, you can only really overpower them since weaves of air can be put on every uncertain perimeter.

Tactics are overrated so long as the channelers don't act like morons.

However, we have seen several battles where channelers get worn out, which is them being overpowered.

I suspect that's more how channelers are gonna die in the Last battle. Simple arrows or bolts won't cut it under normal circumstances.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 6, 2012)

perman07 said:


> We saw how much a regular army could do to an army of channelers in Lord Of Chaos.. The Ashaman didn't even link, but just formed a dome of air around them that thousands of Aiel couldn't get through.
> 
> Whenever you have an army of channelers, I suspect nothing can attack them through stealth, you can only really overpower them since weaves of air can be put on every uncertain perimeter.
> 
> ...



yeah, because those chanellers were (a) a shitload (b) acting in concert (c) acting to inflict maximum damage (d) fighting people who don't even use ranged weapons (e) completely surrounded

(a) and (b) makes that kind of massive power expenditure more likely. it's not going to be a feature of aes sedai in war. we already saw in the same book that the sedai went roaming around the battlefield throwing fireballs instead of sticking together. (c) is _never_ a concern with aes sedai, except specifically against shadowspawn. (d) is obviously not in the hypothesis and (e) is the biggest reason for the dome-of-air tactic, and not something that would be employed otherwise

fact is, keeping a shield up constantly will severely impede offensive channeling. any individual aes sedai is very vulnerable to an arrow to the back of the head

on a separate note, i've always found alanna's rapey surprise-bonding of rand creepy, wrong and infuriating (in fact, i cannot think of a reason to be a warder if you _know_ you'll always be vulnerable to Compulsion, but yeah). though it's given her minimal returns, i really would like to see her killed/stilled/somehow eliminated so the bond goes. without harming rand, obviously


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 6, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> I don't remember that she planned another attack on Tar Valon.



Perhaps I am not recalling the proper details, but in Tuon's final chapter in _Towers of Midnight,_ was she not thinking "The White Tower was doomed"? That seems to be a strong hint that she is not finished with her assault. What I meant to say above was that since Tuon is now the Empress of the Seanchan and romantically-involved with Mat, if Mat and his friends can convince her that it is wrong to enslave _Aes Sedai,_ perhaps she can make steps toward ending the practice. Obviously, hundreds of years of slavery cannot be undone quickly (it took decades, or even centuries, for slavery in the United States to be abolished), but perhaps Tuon can be the first monarch to oppose the practice in her nation, similar to how Abraham Lincoln was the first president of the United States to make any significant opposition to slavery.


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## Cyphon (Dec 7, 2012)

I just finished _A Crown of Swords_ and I have to say this book didn't really seem too much different from the others. I guess this is around the book where complaints come in but this certainly wasn't my least favorite. I think that title still goes to _The Fires of Heaven_. I didn't see a problem with the pacing (I think is the most common complaint, correct me if I am wrong) and thought the viewpoints where mixed well enough that I never grew bored or unhappy. 

I would say my rankings of the books would be something like TSR and LoC standing out above the rest and then all of the rest next in line leaning towards TEotW or TDR to lead those and then TFoH as an outlier. 

Anyway, on to The Path of Daggers.


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## Nimander (Dec 11, 2012)

Just under a month left now and I'm getting stupid psyched about this. I'm gonna be pissed if we get some kind of zombie apocalypse, or end of the world Aztec scenario sometime in December. Not because of the global catastrophes, countless deaths and wailing and gnashing of teeth. But because it's gonna kill my chances of finally getting my hands on A Memory of Light.


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## martryn (Dec 11, 2012)

> But because it's gonna kill my chances of finally getting my hands on A Memory of Light.



All you have to do is travel to the publisher's offices, or maybe Sanderson's home.  I bet you could find everything you wanted there.


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## Nimander (Dec 11, 2012)

martryn said:


> All you have to do is travel to the publisher's offices, or maybe Sanderson's home.  I bet you could find everything you wanted there.



Assuming I'd want to trek to Utah, of all places, post Zombie Apocalypto. The very thought of Mormon undead is enough to give me shivers.

On a somewhat different note, I came across in my browsing the first "rough draft" cover for AMoL by the original artist that did all of the covers for the series, Darrel K. Sweet. His is the one that can be found at the very top of the page in the link below:



Like most of his covers, there are those things in it that make you want to pull out your hair. But even so, his skill is undeniable. And the background of Sweet's draft is fucking _gorgeous_. If he had lived to do the actual cover, and had kept the background and color scheme, but changed the composition of the characters to something better, it would've been an amazing cover.

Even so, the artist that did pick up the torch and has done the cover, Michael Whelan, did a pretty amazing job himself. Most here have seen it already, since it was posted earlier in the thread. But Harriet McDougal, Jordan's widow and his editor for what I'm pretty sure was the entire series, said, "It's the Rand I've waited to see for 20 years." Whether this is just her lending the artist of Jordan's final work some moral support, or whether she truly believes that (which I'm leaning towards myself), it's still an excellently drawn cover, and Whelan outlines his creative process leading up to it on that same page I linked to.  And seeing some of the poses he considered for Rand while rendering the art is kind of interesting.

Personally, I agree with Harriet on this one. This cover, and the cover for Path of Daggers are the only ones I've seen Rand accurately represented at that point in his development. Even though Rand does look about 10 years older than he should on the PoD cover, the hardness of his features, his growing arrogance and pride and pretty much the entire tone of his character is captured perfectly.


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## Damaris (Dec 11, 2012)

path of daggers cover & the dragon reborn cover are god tier


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## Nimander (Dec 11, 2012)

Anony34215 said:


> path of daggers cover & the dragon reborn cover are god tier



I liked TDR cover more for its symbolic summary of the climax of the story. Plus it's the only cover that really shows the Aiel drawn, despite them being a pretty major part of the series. But in its own way it was too "classic fantasyesque" for me to really like it. 

Path of Daggers is one of my favorites for the reason I stated above, but also because of how everything is put together. At first I didn't really like the background colors, especially that of the sky. But honestly, whenever _saidin_ is described in the story, that sickly yellow color is _exactly_ the color I ascribe to it. Faded over and mixed with the darker colors which could represent that taint. Maybe that's personal interpretation coloring my judgment and making me like the cover more than I would otherwise.


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## Damaris (Dec 11, 2012)

have you seen the new ebook/reissue covers? not sold on the depiction of mat but holy shit all the rand covers were perfect imo the only one iw as less than impressed w/ was knife of dreams but i think thats bc min is the only char in the books i hate and i was bitter aviendha lost one of her covers and min fucking farshaw got one in the new style


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## Nimander (Dec 11, 2012)

I think I've seen some of them, if not all of them. If we're talking about the same covers, I wasn't all that sold on how Mat looked myself. But it was still a boss enough cover that I made it my sig, and still bust it out occasionally. But since I don't recall Min we might be talking about different ones. Unless it's the one where Rand loses his hand, in which case it's just a case of blurry memory on my part.


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## martryn (Dec 11, 2012)

> Assuming I'd want to trek to Utah, of all places, post Zombie Apocalypto. The very thought of Mormon undead is enough to give me shivers.



A real fan wouldn't have an issue with such a trek.  Hell, road trip during a zombie apocalypse seems like an awesome idea.


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## Nimander (Dec 11, 2012)

Just browsing WoT sites and so on (I'm at work and don't really have anything better to do; well, I DO have better things to do, but I'm just choosing not to do them. But I digress...)

Anyway, there's a chapter, not the final one but a pivotal one in the series, that has a bit upwards of 79,000 words. And multiple character viewpoints. One person said that it's basically a decent novelette away from being as long as _The Hobbit_, which is 15,000 words more. I think that's insane. And it pretty much just ratcheted up my anticipation for this book even more, which I didn't think was possible.


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## martryn (Dec 11, 2012)

Probably another long ass prologue.  I hate those things.


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## Damaris (Dec 11, 2012)

sanderson's writing tho 
i would have killed for that from rj


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## Cyphon (Dec 14, 2012)

Finished _The Path of Daggers_. Still worried about my pace a bit. This book was quick but the next is big again. 

So I still don't quite have the complaints I have seen about these books over time. Again, this isn't one of the top books but I don't think it was bad either. I can understand why people would complain about pacing but moreso than pacing I think for me it was more that there was just some stuff I don't care about knowing. I love that Jordan slowed down the story a bit and gave us a lot more depth in areas adding to the epic feel of the series. But for me I would have rather gotten depth in other areas than some we got.

I continue to love the way Rands character is handled. So much pain and ups and downs with him just great to read. Some very emotional events to read from him in this book. When he used Callandor and killed his own people and experienced defeat. When he killed Fedwyn near the end was very sad IMO. People turning on him and the lack of trust. Just so much to love reading in his viewpoints. I especially liked when the Aes Sedai snapped on him (merana maybe?) and he said something along the lines of Ta'veren drawing out words they don't always want to hear. 

I thought some of the Perrin stuff was underwhelming in this book but it was nice to get Elyas back and we also got the meeting with Masema near the end. That could have been better. Didn't quite live up to my expectations but was still good. 

I always crave anything more about the Black Tower and related things and while we didn't get much in the way of depth they were always around in some way to keep the anticipation up. Waiting for who would go crazy or piss Rand off or whatever. Logains brief appearance was interesting as well. Gave us something exciting to look forward to with what he did to the Red sister and showing us there was going to be problems with Taim. 

Getting a look at the Seanchan was also kind of cool. Nothing I am jumping up and down about but still, some interesting parts.

Where I will have to agree with people is that the worst parts are definitely with Elayne and Egwene. I just can't bring myself to care about most of what goes on around them. Just women acting like women I guess. What man would find that interesting 

Anyway, still a solid book and as always, contained some really great moments despite some of the flaws.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 14, 2012)

martryn said:


> Probably another long ass prologue.  I hate those things.



As long as shit happens. The problem being that we have seen chapters from Mat and Aviendha, so the prologue has 100 pages each of them walking back to civilization.


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## Cyphon (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't remember all of the details so correct me if I am wrong, but Taim has suspicion cast on him throughout the books and just seems like a bad guy whereas Logain flies under the radar. Does anyone think Taim is just a big false trail for us to follow and Logain will turn out to be the bad guy? Or are there certain clear events that say that just can't be the case? I know there are theories on Taim but has there been anything good about Logain being bad?


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 14, 2012)

Let me just qualify this by saying I haven't read any other forums on this subject so this is just what I pick up from my readings. Logain doesn't have much on him aside from some of the same arrogance Taim has when he sees Rand channel. Logain does seem to learn fast but that might be just because he is that strong in the OP. The problem I have with Logain is that healing gentling was a weave that had never been discovered before Nyneave did it. Logain is given hero status after Min has the viewing of him. Honesty I do not necessarily suspect Logain. The M'Hael on the other hand has staved off the madness for a long time, he knows weaves he has no business knowing, he bears the colours Moridin seems to love, and he is in contact with the other Forsaken (the conflicting orders to kill Rand). Logain hasn't been overly suspicious.


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 14, 2012)

and, there's, you know, 'the old saying: let the lord of chaos rule'

i'd say that sets alarm bells ringing, but it's more like storm warning sirens


----------



## Naisutime (Dec 14, 2012)

I doubt Logain is a bad guy, however I seem to recall that Egwene had a dream where Logain was stepping over Rand's corpse or something. It doesn't necessarily mean that Logain will kill him or whatever, but maybe Logain's glory from Min's viewings comes at Rand's expense.

What do I know...



Lucaniel said:


> and, there's, you know, 'the old saying: let the lord of chaos rule'
> 
> i'd say that sets alarm bells ringing, but it's more like storm warning sirens



Iirc his little palace was also sporting those Chosen sigils (hand gripping forked lightning bolts).


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## Lucaniel (Dec 14, 2012)

can't say i remember those, but there's also the dreamspike in the vicinity of the black tower


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## perman07 (Dec 14, 2012)

Jesus7Clark said:


> yeah i think he wants to complete his series since he almost died of cancer.


Are you talking about Jordan or Sanderson? Cause Sanderson doesn't have cancer from what I know and it's not his series, but Jordan did die from cancer, so you sound kind of behind times..


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## Lucaniel (Dec 14, 2012)

it's a spambot


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## DocTerror (Dec 15, 2012)

So I finally finished all the books that are out this week and can't wait for the last book but man I have so many questions as to whats gonna happen.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Will Perrin die?
Will the Aiel be saved from their future?
Will Rand seal the Dark One forever?
What is Morraine going to do?
Whats Taim and the Black Tower up to?
Will the Seachan attack the White Tower again?
Will Lan make it out alive?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Dec 15, 2012)

DocTerror said:


> So I finally finished all the books that are out this week and can't wait for the last book but man I have so many questions as to whats gonna happen.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Will Perrin Die?
No idea where you came up with the idea that Perrin is going to die.  He'll live (so will Mat).





*Spoiler*: __ 



Will the Aiel be saved from their future?
Presumably ensuring this is going to be Aviendha's major role in the book.





*Spoiler*: __ 



Will Rand seal the Dark One forever?
What?  No.  The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend.  Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

Rand will obviously stop the Dark One from destroying time.  But when the Age of Legends comes again the Dark One will be sealed away in such a way that the Bore can be created.  Which will require the Dragon to patch the Bore with imperfect seals that will eventually decay....





*Spoiler*: __ 



What is Moraine going to do?
I would guess Moraine's role has to do with more forgiveness for Rand.  She's the name at the top of his "list" of women killed because of him.  When he see's she's still alive that will help further his returning humanity.





*Spoiler*: __ 



What's Taim and the Black Tower up to?
Taim's a darkfriend working for one of the forsaken.  He's corrupting the Black Tower to fight for the Dark One in the last battle.

Logain will lead a much-quicker-but-much-bloodier civil war within the Black Tower to come out on top and lead whatever's left against the Dark One's forces.





*Spoiler*: __ 



Will the Seanchan attack the White Tower again?
Not during Book 13.  Depending on how Aviendha and/or Rand negotiate with them there will likely be longer term problems.

Assuming there's a One Power left in the next age.





*Spoiler*: __ 



Will Lan make it out alive?
...  I'm guessing yes.  Speculating based on Jordan's unwillingness to kill characters and the happy ending potential for Nynaeve.


----------



## Nae'blis (Dec 15, 2012)

_The Path of Daggers_ probably had one of my favourite saying in it. "on the heights, the paths are paved with daggers".


Lucaniel said:


> and, there's, you know, 'the old saying: let the lord of chaos rule'
> 
> i'd say that sets alarm bells ringing, but it's more like storm warning sirens


Let the Lord of Chaos Rule was what Demandred said at the end of whatever book Dunai's Well was in. Logain wasn't even mentioned in that book. Taim said it again to the Red Sisters who went to bond at the Black Tower, but again no Logain. Mazrim is working for Moridin now, and doesn't seem to have been working for Demandred since his orders (plot to kill Rand after the Sun Palace bungle) were different from what Demandred said. Demandred would never let another kill Rand.


Lucaniel said:


> can't say i remember those, but there's also the dreamspike in the vicinity of the black tower


Taim is assuredly a darkfriend, 95% someone Ishamael trained personally in the times that he was free. Moridin gave the dreamspike to Taim, there is no question to that. Popular opinion claims Demandred was Taim, but when Jordan read the theories that proved it he decided to douche up and change it. 


DocTerror said:


> So I finally finished all the books that are out this week and can't wait for the last book but man I have so many questions as to whats gonna happen.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


According to Dark prophecy which we should assume is every much as valid (if Moridin wasn't lying). But he has plotkai so I very much doubt it. Or the prophecy refers to someone else.
Yes
Sealing denotes the possibility of release. Rand wants to destroy the DO finally as he said to Moridin the in dream they had together
Moraine... not so sure.
Taim is converting dreadlords via 13*13
No. It is too soon after the initial blitz raid, and Rand will speak to her before then.
Lan is a god amongst men. If Sanderson has any sense he will devote an entire chapter to Lan beating the living crap out of Elaynes brother.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 15, 2012)

So this has probably been talked about 100 times but what is everyone most anticipating/hoping for in the final book?


----------



## Damaris (Dec 15, 2012)

min disappearing/robert jordan to have secretly written the whole thing in advance.

i dunno. much like harry potter, this is a series where i have always been content in/trusted the author to take me where they would, rather than speculate or hope for stuff. probably because i picked them both up as kids.


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## perman07 (Dec 15, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Let the Lord of Chaos Rule was what Demandred said at the end of whatever book Dunai's Well was in. Logain wasn't even mentioned in that book.


That book was Lord of Chaos

And Demandred didn't say it in the end of the book, but after he had been in Shayol Ghul and was meeting the other Forsaken after. They were discussing what their orders were, and Mesaana revealed plans to capture Rand. I'm not sure if it was known Mesaana was in the White Tower at this point, but this was the chapter that kind of set the plot up in this book before Rand started negotiating with the different Aes Sedai factions.



> Taim said it again to the Red Sisters who went to bond at the Black Tower, but again no Logain.


This however WAS said at the end of a book, either Path of Daggers or Knife of Dreams.


> Mazrim is working for Moridin now, and doesn't seem to have been working for Demandred since his orders (plot to kill Rand after the Sun Palace bungle) were different from what Demandred said. Demandred would never let another kill Rand.
> Taim is assuredly a darkfriend, 95% someone Ishamael trained personally in the times that he was free.


He's a darkfriend definitely, but the part about Ishamael is speculation, since we still don't know how became proficient in his channeling. There are several other theories about him:
- He's a non-forsaken from the Age of legends found in a stasis box. His statement about "these so-called Aiel" is the primary hint that would suggest he is not from this age.
- He's someone else who's been switched with the real Mazrim Taim since Bashere couldn't recognize him when they first met.
- It is Moridin himself (though that would conflict with how those Ash'aman who got orders to kill Rand received orders from both Taim and Moridin both).

Your "student of Ishamael" theory is probably the simplest and best of them, and one I subscribe to myself, but it's not confirmed.



> Moridin gave the dreamspike to Taim, there is no question to that.


Probably yeah, though this isn't confirmed either. Though Graendal getting one from Moridin does strongly imply it.



> Popular opinion claims Demandred was Taim, but when Jordan read the theories that proved it he decided to douche up and change it.


Hehe, possible, but speculation That would presume that Jordan hadn't planned it out all along, something that would be unlike him. Samael's quote about Demandred is one of the few real hints we have about Demandred:
"You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to. Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies."

There's also Demandred's small quote to Moridin which said "My rule is secure".

Demandred could be many places but the only 2 things that fit for Demandred with these 2 quotes are Murandy and the Land of Madness (from the world map), but none of these 2 would be dramatic revelations for someone's who's actions have been a mystery for most of the series.

Demandred working by proxy could mean Murandy is just a side-gig, though I think Murandy seems like a suspicious plot thread given all we've heard about it's king consolidating power.

I personally think Demandred is either behind those faux-Aiel we saw at the end of Memory of Light or behind a massive takeover of Shara. Shara has been discussed enough that it wouldn't be a total asspull for him to bring an army from there, unlike the Land of Madness which has only been mentioned outside the main books and in maps.


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 15, 2012)

it was at the end of knife of dreams

and yeah that was a real pity, i quite liked the taim = demandred theory, but after aginor/o'sangar infiltrated the asha'man it'd be too repetitive, i guess

demandred had better be someone significant to the story, though

tbh i wish demandred had already shown up. since aMoL is gonna be ishamael's show as nae'blis, demandred could at least have gotten a book in which the centrepoint was finding and killing him, like sammael and rahvin did


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## Lucaniel (Dec 15, 2012)

also there's no way taim himself is moridin. rand and moridin are connected due to the crossing of the balefire streams. taim's been in contact with rand since then. if he was ishamael, rand would definitely have noticed by feeling the connecting


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## perman07 (Dec 15, 2012)

Lucaniel said:


> also there's no way taim himself is moridin. rand and moridin are connected due to the crossing of the balefire streams. taim's been in contact with rand since then. if he was ishamael, rand would definitely have noticed by feeling the connecting


Ah, there's that.. Knew there was something that made that theory unlikely.


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## martryn (Dec 15, 2012)

I just want it to end.  The series is good, but it went on too long.  That kills it.


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## Damaris (Dec 15, 2012)

those fake aiel are fucking creepy man
i read that part with them for the first time all alone in my room at night and then i was reading all the theories about villages in the blight and those goddamn filed teeth and wow ok not cool


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## Naisutime (Dec 16, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> So this has probably been talked about 100 times but what is everyone most anticipating/hoping for in the final book?



I hope that Rand or someone else will teach the Aes Sedai some God damn humility, their arrogance was no better than Rands at his worst. Though Rands was kinda justified with him being who he is.



Anony34215 said:


> those fake aiel are fucking creepy man
> i read that part with them for the first time all alone in my room at night and then i was reading all the theories about villages in the blight and those goddamn filed teeth and wow ok not cool



I read some theories about male Aiel channelers being captured when to go the Blight and being turned by 13x13 circles, I also heard that some cannibals file their teeth in a similar manner, although I don't know how true that is.

That said, yeah they're creepy. I think you can see some more of them in the part of the prologue that you can buy.


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## Ruby Moon (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm over halfway through with _The Gathering Storm_, and I just gotta love Mat, especially when he's like this: 


*Spoiler*: _The Gathering Storm_ 



"You secretly harbor a love of painting, and you wish you could escape this life of death you've commited yourself to. You came through Trustair on your way south, rather than taking a more direct route, because you love the mountains. You're hoping to hear word of your younger brother, whom you haven't seen in years, and who disappeared on a hunting trip in southern Andor. You have a very tortured past. Read page four."
       Mat hurried on, pushing his way out into the shaded noon, though he did catch a glimpse of Talmanes rolling his eyes. Burn the man! There was good drama in those pages! 

 :rofl

The beginning of that whole chapter was GOLD. I don't think that it was _ta'veren_ at work there.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 20, 2012)

Krevitz said:


> I hope that Rand or someone else will teach the Aes Sedai some God damn humility, their arrogance was no better than Rands at his worst. Though Rands was kinda justified with him being who he is.
> 
> 
> 
> I read some theories about male Aiel channelers being captured when to go the Blight and being turned by 13x13 circles, I also heard that some cannibals file their teeth in a similar manner, although I don't know how true that is.


I think those Red Veils are described as having dark eyes, and we haven't seen an Aiel with dark eyes yet. Even if they were converted via thirteen-thirteen like the unfortunates in the Black Tower, they would still have the same colour eyes. And the guy in that chapters only calls them Aiel because they have spears and are wearing veils. My guess is that they are from Shara. From the little we know of Shara all of the people from the few port cities always have on veils. Shara is the same size as Randland + the Three-fold Land.

Another small thing is that Jordan actually spent some time talking about Shara. He actually had a guy selling silkworms (lol), and the stories Noel told... I just don't see him mentioning them over the span of the series and then have them play zero role in the events.


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## perman07 (Dec 20, 2012)

Ruby Moon said:


> I'm over halfway through with _The Gathering Storm_, and I just gotta love Mat, especially when he's like this:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _The Gathering Storm_
> ...


Well, I personally think Mat in the Sanderson novels has been too unlike Jordan's Mat. While Sanderson's Mat have been very funny, it's like he's become this goofy, cheery guy that's unlike himself.

While Mat in the previous novels also had some silliness in him, there was always this negative, cynical edge to it that was more Mat.

I just find myself getting reminded it's not Jordan writing the books anymore whenever I read Mat's parts.

As for Rand and Perrin, I think Sanderson nailed them more.



Nae'blis said:


> Another small thing is that Jordan actually spent some time talking about Shara. He actually had a guy selling silkworms (lol), and the stories Noel told... I just don't see him mentioning them over the span of the series and then have them play zero role in the events.


I definitely think Shara will have a role to play too.

In theory, they should have one of the most impressive army of channelers given that they are doing the opposite of everyone else who's eliminating male channelers by instead deliberately breeding channelers together.


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## Naisutime (Dec 20, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> I think those Red Veils are described as having dark eyes, and we haven't seen an Aiel with dark eyes yet. Even if they were converted via thirteen-thirteen like the unfortunates in the Black Tower, they would still have the same colour eyes. And the guy in that chapters only calls them Aiel because they have spears and are wearing veils. My guess is that they are from Shara. From the little we know of Shara all of the people from the few port cities always have on veils. Shara is the same size as Randland + the Three-fold Land.



Spoiler: AMOL full prologue.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I looked it up and apparently, and the filed teeth dudes are apparently  (Isam POV). However, there are no explanation for the dark eyes as you pointed out.

That also kinda of makes it impossible for them to be from Shara since channelers from Shara have tattooed faces and all male channelers are killed when they become 21 or something. 






Nae'blis said:


> Another small thing is that Jordan actually spent some time talking about Shara. He actually had a guy selling silkworms (lol), and the stories Noel told... I just don't see him mentioning them over the span of the series and then have them play zero role in the events.



I really hope that Demandred is stirring up stuff in Shara or something...Him being Roedran or whatever would just be incredibly underwhelming.


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## Nimander (Dec 20, 2012)

Have gotten to _The Gathering Storm_ in my reread of the series, and to my surprise, I'm finding it one of my favorite books of the fourteen, right up there with _The Shadow Rising_ and _Fires of Heaven_. A large reason for this is how Rand's character is handled. Seeing him being pushed and pushed to his crisis point was just magnificent. More than most protagonists, his progression to his Moral Event Horizon was believable and even more importantly, one I could relate with. I can't say that, pushed into Rand's exact circumstances, I would've done or handled things half as well. And he was far from perfect in a lot of his choices. 

Mat is my favorite character in the series, even with some of Sanderson's personal "touches" to him, but Rand is a very close second. Depending on how things play out in this final book, he may just move up on the list.


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## Ruby Moon (Dec 21, 2012)

I have the latest book, Towers of Midnight. I paced myself just for this. The end of the world is upon us. Tarmon Gai'don is coming. Light help us. Light help us all.


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## Cyphon (Dec 21, 2012)

Finisher _Winter's Heart_ tonight. The cover was misleading. It made me think this was the book where Perrin actually rescued Faile. Anyway, I would kind of just be repeating myslef to talk a lot about this book as it is similar to the last couple. Doesn't stand out as very memorable but also not bad either. Jordan can really do endings though. I like the way he wrote the final cleansing scenes jumping back and forth from point to point. It was a little surprising to never get anything from Nynaeve during that sequence though.

If I have any complaint on that part it would be seeing more actual battle stuff going down.


On to the next one.


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## Nimander (Dec 24, 2012)

MoL comes out on payday. Yet another sign that my introduction to this series was meant to be. Or as one could say, "The Light wills it."


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## Lucaniel (Dec 24, 2012)

you know

'the wheel weaves as the wheel wills'

is kinda hard to say

do you think aes sedai practice in the mirror or something?


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## Ishamael (Dec 24, 2012)

School this semester ruined any chance I had at being able to reread the series by the time AMOL comes out. And with my last reread being over a year ago I have forgotten all the minor details. Reading the last couple pages of this thread there were a number of things I'd totally forgotten about. I need to find some detailed chapter summaries or something.

Whats your guys opinion on Rand wanting to get rid of the DO once and for all? The books tells us that such a thing is impossible since everything is cyclical and eventually another 3rd Age will come and go but honestly I just want a final conclusion to the Dragon vs the DO. All the DO needs to do to "win" is escape his prison once and he'll get to destroy the Wheel and remake the world into his image. But if you think about that within the context of the books that means he has infinite attempts to try and break out but not once or ever will he succeed. I don't even know why he bothers trying anymore. So because of that I hope this go through the Wheel is different and hes defeated once and for all but that just doesn't seem possible.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 24, 2012)

> But if you think about that within the context of the books that means he has infinite attempts to try and break out *but not once or ever will he succeed.*



wait, what?


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## Ishamael (Dec 24, 2012)

Lucaniel said:


> wait, what?


I was saying up until this point the DO hasn't fully escaped from his prison once because the books state if he does that then he can destroy the Wheel and do whatever he wants basically. And because we know that the Wheel goes through the ages endlessly he's had god knows how many attempts to do so and so hasn't succeeded. If you take the book literally he only needs to escape once but despite all the different iterations of the 3rd Age and whatever other Ages he could make attempts to escape he's failed. 

We don't know how many times up to this point the Wheel has gone through all 7 ages but the DO is still 0 out of a whole lot of attempts.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 24, 2012)

yeah, but since he only needs to win once

and there are literally infinite repetitions of this process until that point

i don't see how you can conclude that he'll _never_ win. in fact, Ishamael's (the character ) reasoning that he will eventually triumph is pretty watertight


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## Damaris (Dec 24, 2012)

Lucaniel said:


> you know
> 
> 'the wheel weaves as the wheel wills'
> 
> ...



i just tried
it was actually pretty easy
you'll never get the shawl at this rate


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## Lucaniel (Dec 24, 2012)

who wants a stupid shawl + great serpent ring + insurmountable superiority complex anyways

i'd rather be an asha'man

besides dammy i bet you've been saying it for years


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## Damaris (Dec 24, 2012)

i already have one of the three i might as well get the whole set 

have fun getting 13x13'd sucker !!!!!!!!!

i was born saying it 

ps nickname still doesnt work


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## masamune1 (Dec 24, 2012)

Lucaniel said:


> yeah, but since he only needs to win once
> 
> and there are literally infinite repetitions of this process until that point
> 
> i don't see how you can conclude that he'll _never_ win. in fact, Ishamael's (the character ) reasoning that he will eventually triumph is pretty watertight



It is a perfectly valid possibility that the Dark One cannot ever win.

Firstly, the theory of infinite trials meaning that X (whatever is possible) _will_ happen is inherently paradoxical- because exceptions are also possibilities. Thus, it is perfectly possible for something that is theoretically capable of occuring to undergo infinite trials to fail to occur; and, since Ishamael's theory is impossible to prove (since nobody can observe or carry out infinite trials, let alone infinite trials of everything that is logically possible), ultimately it remains just that- a theory, no matter how confident he is of its truth. 

So, the Dark One having infinite trials to win, and failing each and every time, forever, is just as logically possible as the Dark One one day winning. And in the grand, cosmic scheme of things, the former might be just as likely as the latter, or even more so.

And secondly, Ishamael is assuming that the victory of the Dark One is something that is, in fact, logically possible. It could be that it is not, because the game could be rigged against him. The Dark One might _think_ that there is some way to break out of his prison and unmake all of reality, but for all he knows the Creator might have put in failsafes in the WoT world that makes this utterly impossible. And bare in mind that according to Ishamael, the Dark One has won before and the Wheel kept on a turnin', and we have only his (unreliable and totally insane) word that this time, things will be different.

The odds of a player managing to bankrupt a casino are statistically impossible because the house always wins. The odds drop further still when you realise that the house is perfectly willing and able to toss you out whenever it wants, just because it thinks you are winning too much. Now imagine if the house cheats and every game is rigged against the player, and the player is psychotically unhinged and pathologically prone to causing his own defeats and breaking his own winning streaks. And the owner of the casino is the players omniscient arch-enemy who has invented and methodically crafted every game and rule in the casino with the aim of preventing this player from _ever_ being able to win. Also, the owner has an infinite supply of cash that automatically refunds the casino before it come close to bankruptcy, and the player is only allowed or even capable of causing the casino to go bankrupt by playing the games.

In other words- there is no chance, there is only the illusion of chance. It may be that even the Dark One knows this, and is just letting Ishamael believe an un-Truth, because the Dark One's ultimate goal isn't to unmake all of reality (because he knows that is impossible) but just to cause as much damage as he can before he is put back in his box, because thats all he is capable of doing.

You could even argue that, since the Dark One's victory is supposed to result in the annihilation of Time itself, the fact that there is a story going on in the first place _proves_ that he isn't ever going to win. Because if he ever did, the story would not have happened. Though that just depends on how time-travel would work in the WoT verse. Either way, Ishamael is wrong or at least, not necessarily correct.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 24, 2012)

i hate it when people respond to my long posts with short ones, so i'm mentioning that to let you know i read all of what you said and it was pretty persuasive

but the 'rigged game' section of your theory assumes that the creator allowed the dark one a partial way out of his prison, but is actually in total control of proceedings. well - why would he do that? give him the illusion of chance? in the end, even this illusion has cost countless lives and the breaking of the world


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## masamune1 (Dec 24, 2012)

Lucaniel said:


> i hate it when people respond to my long posts with short ones, so i'm mentioning that to let you know i read all of what you said and it was pretty persuasive
> 
> but the 'rigged game' section of your theory assumes that the creator allowed the dark one a partial way out of his prison, but is actually in total control of proceedings. well - why would he do that? give him the illusion of chance? in the end, even this illusion has cost countless lives and the breaking of the world



Well, evidently the the Creator can create a prison that can hold the Dark One indifinitely, but still built the world of the Wheel of Time around or next to that prison, with the possibility of the Dark One breaking into the world,  wrecking havoc on the world and possibly using the world to engineer an escape from his cell. The Creator then left it all alone (to clairfy, its not so much that the Creator is in _active_ control of proceedings, so much that he has created a system that runs itself perfectly enough that he is in control anyway).

So, that leaves us with the following possibilities:

1) The Dark One is considered an essential part of the mechanics of the Wheel of Time world. The Creator, for whatever reason, decided to weave him into its story, so he thinks the Wheel of Time verse needs the Dark One for whatever purpose he has in mind.

2) The Wheel of Time verse is in fact another layer of the Dark One's prison, which might imply that the Creator was able to imprison the Dark One but afterwards realised that the prison he crafted wasn't good enough. Its like a puzzle box- the first problem is breaking into the World, the second is using the World to escape. But the Creator had time to make sure that the second layer has no solution, just the appearance of one. 

3) Both of the above.

Might be others, but I those are the only ones I can think of right now.

Basically, even if you assume that the Dark One _can_ win and the game _isn't_ rigged against him, you arguably arrive at the same problem. The Dark One hasn't got out since the Wheel first spun and he isn't likely to escape anytime soon, so the Creator has had ample opportunity to take steps from ever getting out again.

According to Robert Jordan, the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One as they are both roughly equal (though the Dark One seems inclined to self-defeat, at least), so thats why he had to put him in a prison. The Creator is also a Deistic sort of God- he considers the Wheel to be running perfectly and does not, and never has, interfered with his Creation since making it. This, in fact, is what Robert Jordan thought a perfect God would be like, reasoning that perfection doesn't require maintenance.

So, I'm rather inclined to believe in 3). With regards to the lives lost, thats more of a problem of evil thing, and probably comes down to the fact that the story would be less interesting if really bad stuff didn't happen. All the other reasons for why this happens have been done to death- God /  The Creator can't (not all-powerful- which in this case we know to be true), won't (apathetic / malevolent / not All-Good), or is doesn't know about or comprehend the suffering (not all-Knowing). 

Or, there is some Divine Purpose in letting Evil exist that human minds cannot grasp, to do with Free-Will or otherwise benefitting Good. Plus, of course, except for the really evil people everyone who died will get to come back to life via reincarnation (so, maybe the Dark One is allowed to interfere in order to "weed out" the bad seeds from the Pattern, and will be shut off entirely or left powerless once nobody with even a hint of darkness in their hearts will be left after a certain point in the Wheel's endless turnings- evil people don't return to the Pattern, something even people killed with Balefire are able to do). So, dying and even dying horribly at least is, in the grand scheme of things, a minor inconvenience for the majority of people.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 24, 2012)

_Or the Creator is a previous "Dark One," having taken the title after remaking the Wheel as he saw fit._


Ishamael said:


> School this semester ruined any chance I had at being able to reread the series by the time AMOL comes out. And with my last reread being over a year ago I have forgotten all the minor details. Reading the last couple pages of this thread there were a number of things I'd totally forgotten about. I need to find some detailed chapter summaries or something.


_Here's a reread with chapter summaries._


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## Nae'blis (Dec 24, 2012)

Started the reread a couple of days ago, on _the Dragon Reborn_ now. I fully intend to skip all Elayne and Faile chapters for this run.


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## perman07 (Dec 25, 2012)

Did a re-read pretty recently. I've read the series 3-5 times i think, not sure.. Not gonna bother again


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## Damaris (Dec 25, 2012)

i'm on the dragon reborn of my re-read as well
goal is to finish exactly on the seventh


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## Random Stranger (Dec 25, 2012)

Do any of you think Rand will get his left hand back somehow?

Normally missing one hand wouldnt be much of a problem but with him having three wives satisfying them simultaneously while missing one hand becomes more challenging...I mean I guess he could try fisting one of them with that lefthand stump of his, but I dont know...


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## Cyphon (Dec 29, 2012)

Read _Crossroads of Twilight_. So now is the biggest time I really felt the pacing was too slow. Like all of the books this one had its moments, but it was hard getting through Elayne and Egwene as well as the stop off with the army outside of Caemlyn. 

Favorite moments:

- Perrin cutting off the Aiels hand and threatening him. 

- Matt saying "shoot" and killing the runaway. 

I also just liked the stuff in general with Rand and Cadsuane. Always a fun mix.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 29, 2012)

> Favorite moments:
> 
> - Perrin cutting off the Aiels hand and threatening him.



that was pretty goddamn great

i like how everyone shied back from him and even masema's jimmies were rustled


----------



## Kikyo (Dec 29, 2012)

Excerpt of _Memory of Light_ from NPR


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## Naisutime (Dec 29, 2012)

Kikyo said:


> Excerpt of _Memory of Light_ from NPR



Oh shit.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Looks pretty bad for the Rand faction of the Black Tower. If Logain actually is captured I see how it wouldn't be a first priority to turn him, unless Taim hasn't been able to gather 13 Myrdraal. 

At least half of the Tower is going to be saved from a possible mini-war due to being transferred to Illian and Arad Doman.


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## Nae'blis (Dec 30, 2012)

So I only read the Mat chapter excerpt from the next book. At this point I can pretty much wait. I just want to know what will happen with Greandal, she was a major disappointment in the last book considering everything we have been told to believe about her. She might as well have been killed when Rand sent balefire to her fortress. I mean: Demandred was building up his forces and going a good job of it according to Moridin, Arangar was attempting something with the Rebel AS, Osangar was with Rand, Lanfear was attempting to turn Rand to the shadow, Semirhage put Seanchan into upheaval (not sure towards what purpose) but she had plans that were working, Mesaana was in the White Tower... The Demandred group was actually doing shit towards winning the last battle while Greandal was sitting in a fluffy chair looking at beautiful people for eleven books. She is fucking useless.

I just hope that we find out early what exactly the deal was with Lanfear entering Rands dream at the end of the previous book. Rand wards his dreams (but Moridin can enter at will as Rand can his) but Rand wasn't dreaming, Rand can enter tel'aran'rhiod but going there leaves the person tired and what happened to Rand didn't seem like it was in tel'aran'rhiod. We have seen someone being pulled out of a dream into tel'aran'rhiod but it is weird, or maybe Rand was pulled out of his own dream into another persons dream without the TAR step. But that would mean Rand/Moridin are the only lucid dreamers in the series.


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## Ruby Moon (Dec 31, 2012)

Just finished _Towers of Midnight_. Oh, my poor Mat..


*Spoiler*: _Towers of Midnight_ 



Haha, despite having his left eye taken out, Mat manages to give the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn a big merry "Fuck you and have a nice day" tip of the hat. And Olver...Light! How in the Pit of Doom did Olver win Snakes and Foxes fair and square? 




Can't say I feel bad for the Forsaken. So far, Demandred is still around, and likely the last (next to Moridin) to be brought down by Rand or one of his allies.


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## DocTerror (Jan 2, 2013)

Man I just found out the ebook isn't coming out for another 3 months. I seriously hate TOR Books. They are the same publishers who delayed the Shadow's in Flight ebook 2 months after the print version only to find out the "enhanced ebook" was heavily abridged version of a 300 pg book.


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## Cyphon (Jan 2, 2013)

Finished _Knife of Dreams_. I think I would rank this one up there with some of the earlier books. There weren't very many parts I didn't like and that includes Elayne and Egwene. I definitely have respect for how Egwene handled herself in the tower. Elaynes parts weren't great but enough "real" stuff happened to keep me from wanting to kill myself. This one definitely helped with pacing as well with a lot of things being resolved. Elayne basically becoming queen, the main force of dark sisters being captured, Perrin resuing Faile, Matt getting married etc...Again, minus the last book, I didn't have a big problem with the pacing but this one still felt better with getting things resolved. 

Welp, 2 more books to read in 6 days.


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## Cyphon (Jan 4, 2013)

_The Gathering Storm_ is finished. A long damn book but certainly one of the best. So many things happened in this book. A few slow parts but mostly good. Rand's parts were amazing to read and again, I love the way his character was handled throughout the series. I also enjoyed reading Egwene's parts and seeing how she handled herself. If I have any complaints it would be the Matt sections in this book. They felt off to me in a lot of ways. This may seem minor but even Vanin never spat when he was involved. I seem to remember him spitting almost every time we heard about him. The conversations between Matt and the others just never seemed quite right either.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 4, 2013)

Rand part with Semirhage when he channeled the TP was orgasmic. I loved it as much as Luke frolicking  with the Emperor Reborn. And his descent was very convincing. The callback to the Fisher King story Thom told in the first book (well one of the first three), as well as what Aviendha said when she bonded him, was nice to read.

Favourite Egwene part, probably in the whole series never mind just that one book, was when she said "I would name you darkfriend as well, but I suspect that the dark one would perhaps be embarrassed to associate with you!" Aside from that Egwene was just too easily able to do what she set about to do. The way she changed perceptions and manipulated the AS (who would normally ignore her) had the feel of taveren shaping, and she fucking isn't one. Maybe Rand is just so strongly taveren that he influences events that are not immediately close to him.

Matt chapters were horrible but I guess Sanderson got better at it in _Towers of Midnight_. Still didn't nail it but it didn't make my teeth grind.


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## Cyphon (Jan 5, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> Rand part with Semirhage when he channeled the TP was orgasmic.



Definitely. Almost every thing he did was impactful and you really felt it. Like when he banished Cadsuane or actually used the OP on Tam. 



> Favourite Egwene part, probably in the whole series never mind just that one book, was when she said "I would name you darkfriend as well, but I suspect that the dark one would perhaps be embarrassed to associate with you!"



Hell yeah. She really tore Elaida up during that 2nd dinnner 



> Aside from that Egwene was just too easily able to do what she set about to do. The way she changed perceptions and manipulated the AS (who would normally ignore her) had the feel of taveren shaping, and she fucking isn't one. Maybe Rand is just so strongly taveren that he influences events that are not immediately close to him.



I didn't have a problem with how things happened. I guess the reason I didn't is because what she was doing _should_ have been easy but the Aes Sedai were missing it. Maybe you could argue the Aes Sedai should have figured it out on their own but there was a lot of distrust sewn amongst them and we know how stubborn AS can be. 

I also liked the way they described her as she was fighting the Seanchan. I pictured Storm from X-men.


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## Nimander (Jan 5, 2013)

Someone from Tor needs to leak this book online or something, dammit.


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## Naisutime (Jan 6, 2013)

I'm the process of writing a respect thread for Wheel of Time and I don't have access to New Spring and I'm really skeptical of downloading it.

Could one of the posters in this thread either post or PM some potential feats, especially from Lan and Moraine if they have some? Or alternatively write Moraine and Lan if they want to.

Edit:
Located  for those interested in giving some constructive criticism and suggestions.


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## Cyphon (Jan 7, 2013)

Finished _Towers of Midnight_. I guess my timing couldn't come much closer to perfect.

Anyway, I thought this book started a little slow but then I was really getting into a lot of the different stories. Rand going to the White Tower wasn't nearly as awesome as I remembered but I had forgotten him Traveling out and wiping out thousands and thousands of trollocs which was just an awesome scene, including the guy plucking his own eyes out. 

Perrin forging the new hammer was also a pretty powerful sequence IMO. I really enjoyed reading that. 

I also think I figured out what really bugs me about Sandersons version of Matt. With Jordan we got reactions from others like "Matt says/does the darndest things". With Sanderson he is actually having him say and do those things and they are cringe worthy. I am not sure I would mind if the things he did actually sounded good or funny, but they don't. 

There are some other cool things that happened in these books but I will leave it at that for now. Soon we will be discussing the final chapters.


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## Drizzt (Jan 7, 2013)

Woot! I just received my copy of the final volume 'Memory of Light' - I am filled with anticipation and trepidation about beginning the final chapter of this long series. I have to discipline myself and finish my re-read of the previous books before moving forward with the final book. I suppose my sense of dread is heighten because it is the final book - but I want to savor the story and read it uninterrupted.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 7, 2013)

Just a heads up to everyone; if you post untagged spoilers of things I haven't read yet:
I WILL BAN YOU

You have been warned.

Probably shouldn't post untagged spoilers for things other people haven't read either.
​


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## Lucaniel (Jan 7, 2013)

I support this motion.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 7, 2013)

As an addendum when tagging things it's nice to label the spoiler with where the spoiler's from, like:

[noparse]
*Spoiler*: _Chapter 6_ 



OMG, Rand was actually the Dark One all along!  What a twist!  How will the others manage to stop him?


[/noparse]

Not required (as long as you use some spoiler tag) but it's nice so that people who have read some-of-the-way-but-not-all-of-the-way can read safely and comment back (again in spoiler tags).


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## Cyphon (Jan 7, 2013)

Nowhere close to me with a midnight release or anything. Shit.


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## Magus (Jan 7, 2013)

I could pick up a copy of AMOL right now, but that'd mean walmart would get my money. I'll wait for my local bookstore to get their shipment in.


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## Cyphon (Jan 7, 2013)

I tried Walmart but they said they didn't have it.


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## Naisutime (Jan 7, 2013)

Cyphon said:


> Nowhere close to me with a midnight release or anything. Shit.



This. FML...

I visited Dragonmount (where apparently everyone and their mothers got early copies) and read an entire page before I realized that this hadn't fuckin' happened yet...Talk about spoiling your ass.


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## Cyphon (Jan 7, 2013)

Called another Walmart. They have it!

Fuck YEAH!!!!!


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## masamune1 (Jan 7, 2013)

Heh.

Heh, heh, heh.

So, apparently, the good people at Dragonmount.com have had this book for a little while.

And I took a little jaunt over there and.....well, I know stuff that happens.

I have spoilers.

So....think of me as your friendly neighbourhood drug dealer.

Anyone....wanna know stuff?


*Spoiler*: _Like, say_ 




1) Demandred rules Shara.

2) Egwene dies.

3) Two Forsaken don't die (and yes, I know who).

4) Mat kills Fain.

5) Egwene dies...killing Mazrim Taim.




Oh yeah- I'm evil.

Take a peep. 

You know you want to.


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## Naisutime (Jan 7, 2013)

Will admit, it's pretty hard not to click that spoiler button.

I already spoiled at least two things by visiting Dragonmount


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## masamune1 (Jan 7, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Little More_ 




6) The Horn is blown...and not by Mat.

7) Lan takes a Forsaken head....and I think he dies.

8) Mat and Perrin live.

9) Amrylin Cadsuane.

10) Black Tower Boss Loghain.


*Spoiler*: _And- Might Have Read This Wrong, But....._ 





11) I _think_ that Rand and Ishamael become one, and thats how Rand beats him. Then he dumps his hos and rides off into the sunset. The End.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 7, 2013)

I stopped visiting any WOT related sites well over a month ago figuring the book would get leaked somewhere


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## masamune1 (Jan 7, 2013)

You call yourself Evil and won't read the spoilers?

Come on....You _know_ you want to.

Just a peak. Whats the harm?


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 7, 2013)

Wow, the final book of this epic series shall soon be available; I am so excited, and can hardly believe that this awesome story shall soon be ending. I shall definitely miss this series after it has ended, so I hope that the final book can provide a thrilling conclusion to it!


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## Nae'blis (Jan 8, 2013)

It's disgraceful that my first read of this book won't even be reading at all. But I can wait four days for the hardcover to arrive in the mail, or just take advantage of Audible and get it immediately... I want to start listening now but at the same time need to sleep.


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## martryn (Jan 8, 2013)

Driving to the 'ol bookstore to buy this hardcover first thing tomorrow.  Probably spend all day tomorrow reading it.


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## perman07 (Jan 8, 2013)

Have gotten a bookstore to lay their only copy on hold for me. The bus (cause I live in remote-ass place) leaves in 10 minutes. Gonna do a binge reading session soon as I get home.

Everyone who reads this, remember to post shit in spoiler-tags for at least a little while. Takes a while to read such a large book.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2013)

I am home and have the book in hand. When I picked it up at the store I couldn't wipe the smile off my face. It feels so good to finally have it.

Also I meant to ask. Is characters saying "blasted" a Sanderson thing? I am pretty sure it is but didn't go back to confirm. Anyway, it annoys me.



Lets begin!


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## Naisutime (Jan 8, 2013)

@Cyphon

Almost 100% sure that's a Sanderson thing. Jordan preferred "Bloody -something-" and various "swear words" that has to do with milk in one way or another. 

Unless you're referring to characters saying that they have done the act of blasting something, which I don't think Jordan used either.


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## martryn (Jan 8, 2013)

Off to pick up the tome.  I hope this series ends well.  This book has to be fantastic for me to consider this series top tier fantasy.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2013)

I already consider this series one of the best. While many compete and may even be better they are not nearly as long so it isn't even fair to compare. (as far as I have read) this is the biggest series by far. Kind of in a league of its own.


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## Nimander (Jan 8, 2013)

Book is in hand. As soon as I can wipe this cheesy grin off my face I'll start reading it. Hope to have it done by this time tomorrow, though I won't be rushing it by any means. After all, like I've heard it said, this is the last chance I'll ever have to read a WoT book for the first time. So I'm going to treasure it. 

Happy reading to everyone else that has a copy. I look forward to discussing it with you (in tags of course) when I'm done.


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## perman07 (Jan 8, 2013)

Your sig is outdated Nimander


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## martryn (Jan 8, 2013)

> I already consider this series one of the best. While many compete and may even be better they are not nearly as long so it isn't even fair to compare. (as far as I have read) this is the biggest series by far. Kind of in a league of its own.



Being long doesn't mean that it's going to be good.  In fact, one of my major complaints about the Wheel of Time is it's length and all the divergent plots.  The series would probably be a lot better if we had less 75 page prologues, and the story focused entirely on Rand, Mat, and Perrin, ignoring the women and other non-essential characters.  One of my good friends is a fantasy buff, and he's balking at finishing the series, having stopped on the second book, entirely because of the female characters and how unrealistic everyone seems to act toward them. 



> Hope to have it done by this time tomorrow, though I won't be rushing it by any means.



How could you possibly finish this book in 24 hours, and why would you, if you did finish the book in 24 hours, say that you won't be rushing it?  That's madness.   

Anyways, I picked up the book and am eager to read it, but I've already had to stop to look up characters.  It's hard to remember a minor character mentioned in brief and as a part of a minor plot line, grouped with a bunch of others, that happened four books ago.  Which is why this series is bloated, and I'm hoping that everything is neatly tied up at the end of this novel.  Which would require all the minor characters to make appearances.  I want to enjoy this book, but I'm already thinking I'll be doing more research than reading.


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## masamune1 (Jan 8, 2013)

martryn said:


> One of my good friends is a fantasy buff, and he's balking at finishing the series, having stopped on the second book, entirely because of the female characters and how unrealistic everyone seems to act toward them.



That sounds like more of a quality issue than a length issue. Would your friend have minded as much if the characterization was better.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2013)

martryn said:


> Being long doesn't mean that it's going to be good.  In fact, one of my major complaints about the Wheel of Time is it's length and all the divergent plots.  The series would probably be a lot better if we had less 75 page prologues, and the story focused entirely on Rand, Mat, and Perrin, ignoring the women and other non-essential characters.  One of my good friends is a fantasy buff, and he's balking at finishing the series, having stopped on the second book, entirely because of the female characters and how unrealistic everyone seems to act toward them.



I definitely agree with you. Length isn't necessarily a good quality. My point is simply that this series is good, in fact really good, and that for a far longer time than most series. Take A Song of Ice and Fire for example. People already have major complaints at 4 books in and it is considered one of the best series out there. Wheel of Time certainly has its complaints, but we are talking about a 15 book series. The only one you could even attempt to compare the 2 would be to compare the first 5 books of WoT to the first 5 of the other. Even that isn't a truly great way. 

I would also agree that some of plots definitely make the series feel bloated. The thing is, for me its simply because those plots weren't as interesting. For example, replace those with more Black Tower stuff and things with the Chosen and such, and we may not be voicing complaints about the length. 

Anyway, I don't know where I am going with this. It may not be the best series ever but I think it belongs in the argument and part of that does have to do with how long it has stayed good. 

As an interesting point to that.....I saw an interview with Harriet and she said that there are more notes and things for this story than there are actual published pages in all of the books combined. It just seems incredible to me that one mind could create so vast a story and keep it so consistent.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2013)

Okay I finished the Prologue.

*Prologue/Cover*

First I just want to say that this may be my favorite cover. I had seen it before online but seeing it in person is something else. While I would like to see more characters that really doesn't matter when it comes down to it. The detail and colors of this picture are just awesome. Fantastic really. I love it.


*Prologue SPOILERS*


*Spoiler*: __ 



I really liked the Prologue overall. The very first section was great IMO. It reminded me a bit of the farmer who decided to pack all of his shit and move away during one of the other prologues. But this one was better. I also liked Talmanes story. It was a nice little opening where we jumped back and forth to different viewpoints but it all came back to Talmanes to make 1 whole story within the prologue. Can't remember if that was done in any of the other books but I liked it. We also got another look at Androl in the Black Tower which added to the overall level of despair. 

I have to say....The Prologue definitely felt dark to me and really worked to drive home the point that victory isn't guaranteed. Especially after Rand became Jesus and seemed more or less unstoppable. 

Lastly and not the most minor of points.....Taim confirmed as a Chosen......Snap. Does anyone else get the feeling someone in the Shadow is going to go Light before all is said and done? Maybe Moridin or Taim. I know we got a taste with Verin but I think there has to be a bigger player who turns. I just get the feeling it is coming.


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## Nimander (Jan 8, 2013)

martryn said:


> How could you possibly finish this book in 24 hours, and why would you, if you did finish the book in 24 hours, say that you won't be rushing it?  That's madness.



I'm a pretty fast reader (not bragging; I've just read so much and started so early it's not an issue for me) + I honestly have nothing better to do during the daytime + I work overnight, at a job where during an 8-hour shift I will have, at most, 1.5 hours of actual work to do. So I can very reasonably finish this in 24 hours. Though, like I said, I won't push for that as a goal since I'm wanting to enjoy this.

In other news, REALLY (and surprisingly, since I didn't feel very strongly about it in ToM) enjoying the Androl/Pevara storyline at the Black Tower so far. Only 143 pages in, but it's pretty good stuff so far.


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## Damaris (Jan 8, 2013)

fucking barnes and noble MAILED THIS TO MY MOTHERS HOUSE WHICH IS LIKE 80000 STATES AWAY
WHAT THE FUCK IS THE USE OF YOU
TIME TO GO CRASH IN MY LOCAL B&N FOR FIVE HOURS TO READ THIS


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2013)

Nimander said:


> In other news, REALLY (and surprisingly, since I didn't feel very strongly about it in ToM) enjoying the Androl/Pevara storyline at the Black Tower so far. Only 143 pages in, but it's pretty good stuff so far.



Just got there myself. It is pretty interesting. Can't wait for more.


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## Cyphon (Jan 8, 2013)

*Chapter 5 spoiler*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Moraine! Love the entrance and the way that played out. So good.


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## Damaris (Jan 8, 2013)

well
finished it five seconds ago
bawled my eyes out in a b&n that was technically closed but let me stay bc i was only fifty pages from the end, bless their hearts
i dont even know what to say

the person who said the cover art was beautiful was spot fucking on tho
i've never seen a visual image of those three that seemed more...perfect


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## Damaris (Jan 8, 2013)

also 


*Spoiler*: _general spoiler, no details, of sanderson's mat characterization_ 



as someone who has ALWAYS vehemently hated sanderson's mat and been v v upset with his handling of my favorite char...mat in this book was the old mat, _leagues_ above what sanderson had been shoveling us


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## Naisutime (Jan 8, 2013)

Have to say that the first part of the prologue of GoS is still the 2nd best after the one in EotW.

Meeting at Merrilor.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Fuck, that later half of that meeting made me annoyed. Moraine has to recite the Karaethon Cycle in order to make people see whats up? One should think that educated people like the rulers knows it by heart and Egwene actually knows it, but is still being an annoying bitch. You fuckin' forella?

Egwene knows that they'll get the Taint all over again and still thinks its a better solution...Fuck her, I hope she dies, though I don't see it being much chance of that.

I also noticed how Moraine didn't call Egwene Mother and how Androl got called an idiot, which iirc is the first time that word has been used.

I had more complaints, but I've forgotten what they were.




Edit:


*Spoiler*: __ 



How does anyone other than Rand on the lightside know Moridin's name?


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## Damaris (Jan 8, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



im not really upset by moiraine not calling her mother, she's not really an aes sedai anymore


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## Nimander (Jan 8, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Moiraine's entrance: 5x more awesome than I was expecting. Loved it. Ogier raging? Sent chills up the spine. And Mat and Rand's little pissing contest when they were "captured" had me rolling.


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## martryn (Jan 9, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Massive, non-spoiler related, WoT rant_ 





> That sounds like more of a quality issue than a length issue. Would your friend have minded as much if the characterization was better.



Honestly, it was a combination.  The female characters wouldn't have bothered him as much except he knew that after book 2, there were 12 other massive bibles of the same.



> I definitely agree with you. Length isn't necessarily a good quality. My point is simply that this series is good, in fact really good, and that for a far longer time than most series.



Good, yes.  Really good... meh.  I'll give you that it's in the top 10% of fantasy series / novels, but I'll leave it up to you if that means it's really good.  I'm not sure if it's a top 10 series.  There's just a bunch of crap fantasy out there.



> Take A Song of Ice and Fire for example. People already have major complaints at 4 books in and it is considered one of the best series out there.



I'd like to know what those major complaints are.

My problem with the Wheel of Time are the PoV's.  You'd think that Rand, Mat, and Perrin would consist of 50% of the material, at least, as the first book solidly gave you the impression that those three were the main characters of the story.  Anyone trying to give an overview of the Wheel of Time would say the story is about those three lads from the Two Rivers.  However, you get a different picture when you start looking at the actual chapter composition.  Book to book:
*Eye of the World:*  92.2% Rand and Perrin

*The Great Hunt:* 57.53% Rand and Perrin (already a dangerous dip)

*The Dragon Reborn:* 33.16% Egwene!  But still, we get Mat PoV's for the first time ever, but on the other end of things, we've lost almost all of our Rand PoV's.  The trio gets 60.18% of book time, but no one gets more attention than Egwene.

*The Shadow Rising:* 57.271% for the trio, and also my favorite book in the series.

*The Fires of Heaven:* Rand and Nynaeve share top page time in this one, and this is where the quality of the novels begin to seriously suffer.  Perrin is completely absent, and Rand and Mat only take up 36.31% of the book.

*Lord of Chaos:* Only slightly better than the previous book.  The trio see 46.084% of page time, and the book ends on a high, which helps us forget how boring most of it was.

*A Crown of Swords:* This book has 31 fucking PoV's.  Luckily, the trio gets 44.39% of them.

*The Path of Daggers:* Generally regarded as one of the weaker books, primarily, I think, because Elayne has more page time than any other character, and she is by far the worst of the women in the series.  Mat, most people's favorite character, is also completely absent.  Rand and Perrin only get 30.32% of the attention.

*Winter's Heart:*  This is where my father gave up on the series, and is, not surprisingly, the second book in a row to feature Elayne more heavily than any other character.  Luckily the trio sees 42.68% of the action, which is still less than half the novel.

*Crossroads of Twilight:* Egwene gets the most attention in this book.  The trio shares a paltry 35.159% of the page time.  Rand has less time than some characters in the prologue.

*Knife of Dreams:* Last of the Jordan books.  Surprisingly, it also returns to featuring the trio more heavily (40.45%), which is why people seem to think this is where the plot starts to pick up again.  

*The Gathering Storm:* First of the Sanderson books.  He does a much better job at writing women, but he goes back to featuring them more often, as well, with Egwene again getting the most time.  The trio clocks in at an embarrassing low of 28.46% of the novel. 

*Towers of Midnight:* Rand gets no PoV.  At all.  Mat and Perrin get 32.43% of the book.

I won't look at this last novel yet, as I don't want to spoil myself, but the series started strong with the three protagonists getting almost all of the PoV's, and ends with them being shunted aside for PoV's that most people find annoying.  Sure, we need the occasional Egwene or Nynaeve PoV to know what's happening in the Tower or whatever, but I'd rather get more Logain PoV's to find out what's happening the in the Black Tower.  And no one gives a shit about all of Elayne's political maneuvering, or the massive amount of chapters that only give status updates and feature a main character walking through a camp or riding among his men.  Boring!  

When you've got your three protagonists sharing an equal amount of time with your 3-5 major female PoV's, and you've got an equal amount of book devoted to secondary PoV's...  I mean, there are problems when you've got anywhere near 30 PoV's in a book.  

This series could have been told in 7 books, easy.  It's twice as long as it needs to be due to the insistence on novella length prologues that only set the mood for the rest of the novel, and 1/3 of the novels being secondary PoV's that either are supposed to set the "mood" for the novel or flesh out minor plot points that shouldn't have been introduced in the first place.

Song of Ice and Fire at least stick to the major plot of the novels, with very few deviating subplots, and each book contains at most 12 PoVs, with one or two characters getting the vast majority of them.  That's why Song of Ice and Fire is generally considered a better series (I would say that the two are close, personally, just that the flaws are greater in Wheel of Time, but the things Wheel of Time does right are better than what you see in Song of Ice and Fire).



> The only one you could even attempt to compare the 2 would be to compare the first 5 books of WoT to the first 5 of the other. Even that isn't a truly great way.



Not a great comparison because in Wheel of Time, during book 5, you know that you've got a long ways to go before the story is finished.  I mean, it took 3 books for Rand to declare himself the Dragon Reborn so the plot would start moving forward.



> I would also agree that some of plots definitely make the series feel bloated. The thing is, for me its simply because those plots weren't as interesting. For example, replace those with more Black Tower stuff and things with the Chosen and such, and we may not be voicing complaints about the length.



I agree, but it would still seem a long and bloated series.  A better way to do that would be to write multiple trilogies, so you have self-contained plots and resolutions at the end of every few books, and then start another trilogy where things pick up again where they left off.  Having one continuous story gets exhausting.  



> Anyway, I don't know where I am going with this. It may not be the best series ever but I think it belongs in the argument and part of that does have to do with how long it has stayed good.



I would agree with this the same way that you have certain movies nominated for Best Picture but you know that there's no chance in hell they'll win it, or certain players at the Heisman ceremony, even though they haven't got a shot.  The series hasn't stayed good for that long.  It's returned, every now and then, and at least once per book, to some level of awesomeness that keeps most of us reading, but around book 5 the series plunges hard into mediocrity like a drowning little girl, every now and then breaking the surface of the water to gasp for the air consisting of all the things that made the first four books fantastic.  And we think that the more recent books are good, but really it's just because we were so used to the middle books being so bad.

And to be considered the greatest of all time, it would have had to have done something groundbreaking or influential.  It hasn't really covered any new grounds as far as fantasy series goes unless you count pages or prologue length.  It doesn't delve into deep psychological issues.  Didn't invent a new system of magic.  Epic world-building has been done before.  "Young male protagonist from a backwater village becomes chosen one to fight greatest evil world has ever known" is a pretty staple plot in fantasy.  Jordan did it well, and for several books weaved an amazing tale, but if you think the middle books were good you either:

A.  Have no taste

Or, more likely,

B.  Are a fan of the Wheel of Time series, and so enjoyed the series without considering the individual merits of the novel, the same way people like the Star Wars prequels for their relation to Star Wars, cause let's face it, they don't hold up on their own. 






> I'm a pretty fast reader (not bragging; I've just read so much and started so early it's not an issue for me) + I honestly have nothing better to do during the daytime + I work overnight, at a job where during an 8-hour shift I will have, at most, 1.5 hours of actual work to do. So I can very reasonably finish this in 24 hours. Though, like I said, I won't push for that as a goal since I'm wanting to enjoy this.



Not to antagonize, but reading fast isn't the same as reading for enjoyment.  With great authors you should pause at every period or comma, to let the weight of the sentence have it's effect on you.  If you're reading this thing at the rate of 1.33 pages per minute, you need to slow the fuck down and enjoy the book more.

If you've already finished it and it only took you three and a half hours to read it, you obviously missed a lot and therefore didn't truly read it, but instead read the equivalent of a detailed plot summary.


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## DeathkillerD (Jan 9, 2013)

7 hours later and finished. Couldn't be happier. Time to do a slower reread.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm still not sure if they sold me a book or a cleverly disguised cinderblock.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm very happy with what I've read so far (~1/4 done?)

Part of me is getting vibes that this will end with "Rand, you must choose: Red, Green, or Blue" though.


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## martryn (Jan 9, 2013)

> finished it five seconds ago



I mean, seriously, if you were sitting at the Barnes and Noble with the book in your lap between your post at 2:54 PM and you post at 6:24 PM, you'd have 3.5 hours to read an 894 page novel.  That's 12 seconds a page.  I, for one, am calling bullshit.


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## Nimander (Jan 9, 2013)

xStarted this at a bit after 9:30 AM yesterday. Finished it as 5:04 AM today. And you know what? I'm pleased.

Like a lot of the advance reviews said, it wasn't perfect. There were definitely things with the story I had issues with. By by and far, they were outnumbered and outweighed by the things that were done RIGHT.

That said, the very ending of the story did leave me feeling a little bit...underwhelmed. Maybe it's just me, cause I mostly found the ending satisfying. But, I suppose I was expecting it to have more of an emotional impact on me than it did.

As a bit of an aside, how I read is how I read, martryn. I'm not trying to sound on the defensive, cause I definitely am not. But I only read slowly when I'm studying or trying to memorize something. When I'm in the grip of an enjoyable story, the pace CAN'T be slow for me. I don't skim the story by any means, by I don't slog through it either. I just read at a pace that keeps me engaged.  Though finishing 909 pages in about 13 hours is probably a record for me. Just a sign of how much I was looking forward to and enjoying this story.


*Spoiler*: _Things that stuck out the most for me_ 




-Androl = Asha'man MVP. Hands down. I wouldn't have thought that I could come to love a character as much as I did in two books, especially in the last two books of the series. But he's easily jumped into my Top 5 fave. Not even counting his numerous feats in this book (which were definitely a tipping point, for sure). It's the fact that for the first time, I could find a character in the story I could actually RELATE to, that I could say with certainty shares a lot with me. Perrin had some qualities of this, but he was dissimilar enough that I couldn't really like him for them.

-Holy Shit 60-page-prologue Batman. They weren't fucking around when they wrote that one, that's for sure.

-Moiraine's entrance: PERFECT. I can't think of anyone else that could've defused/corrected the situation at that time like she did. 

-Demandred: finally, a Forsaken done RIGHT from beginning to end. He came onto the scene with his shit-wrecking boots on and tied tight, and it was a joy to see how he absolutely pushed the Lightsiders. Was akin to my enjoyment at seeing Bane in TDKR, before his character was absolutely gutted by that horrible "twist" near the end. *shudders*. I'm a fan of a villain done right, and Demandred delivered.

-Egwene. Fuck.




And I have to stop there. That isn't even all that comes to mind, but this post is long enough already. Hoping more around here finish cause there's quite a bit I want to discuss.


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## martryn (Jan 9, 2013)

And I'm just saying that at the rate you read, you were doing a page in under a minute.  That's insane.  How can that even be enjoyable?  How can you claim to read that fast without skimping over stuff?  If I were Sanderson, I'd be insulted someone would callously read my works.


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## Nimander (Jan 9, 2013)

martryn said:


> And I'm just saying that at the rate you read, you were doing a page in under a minute.  That's insane.  How can that even be enjoyable?  How can you claim to read that fast without skimping over stuff?  If I were Sanderson, I'd be insulted someone would callously read my works.




*Spoiler*: _martryn_ 



Once again, it's just how I absorb information. I started reading really young. Growing up, I preferred watching TV with the CC on than actually listening to the dialogue, and to this day I'll watch a DVD with subtitles, even if the movie is in English. It's how I process things best and most enjoyably.

And why should he feel insulted? The fact that I read it that fast took nothing away from my appreciation of his crafting of the story. The syntax of the characters or his metaphors and similes, or the detail put into the settings of any given thing. I just happen to absorb all of this at, what I'm guessing, is a faster rate than most. It's just how I am. 

And it's a sign of how much I did enjoy the story. Like I said in your speed reading thread, if I hadn't enjoyed the story, it would've taken me significantly longer. Sanderson's _Mistborn_ for example, took me the better part of 3 weeks to get through, simply because it was so hard to hold my interest up until about the last fourth of the book. I kept putting it down and coming back to it when I had nothing else to do because it was so dry to me. If anything, I figure Sanderson would feel more insulted at THAT assessment of his writing than at me getting through a book of his faster because it was that engaging. 




Spoiler tagged cause it was honestly too long and really only addressed to one member.


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## Damaris (Jan 9, 2013)

martryn said:


> Not to antagonize, but reading fast isn't the same as reading for enjoyment.  With great authors you should pause at every period or comma, to let the weight of the sentence have it's effect on you.  If you're reading this thing at the rate of 1.33 pages per minute, you need to slow the fuck down and enjoy the book more.
> 
> If you've already finished it and it only took you three and a half hours to read it, you obviously missed a lot and therefore didn't truly read it, but instead read the equivalent of a detailed plot summary.





martryn said:


> I mean, seriously, if you were sitting at the Barnes and Noble with the book in your lap between your post at 2:54 PM and you post at 6:24 PM, you'd have 3.5 hours to read an 894 page novel.  That's 12 seconds a page.  I, for one, am calling bullshit.




reading slowly actually gives me a headache
i was pacing myself to finish this book within five hours, rather than three
some people are just wired differently, ever since i was a little kid learning to read, i've been doing this. i can read a page in 12 seconds, close the book, and repeat the page to you word for word. i use to fake a normal reading speed in primary school because my teachers would accuse me of cheating to get out of reading, and i would get crippling migraines and have to go to the nurse.
i'd go so far as to say a "detailed plot summary" is basically sanderson's writing style for these books though, damn him


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 9, 2013)

[sp=Chapter 15]"For now," Tuon said, "clear out and secure the perimeter. I will be spending time with my consort, who has requested that I 'make him feel loved.' "

Oh, Mat-Tuon.  The comedy you give us.


Androl is such a boss with gateways. The characters have definitely become more creative with the use of gateways.[/sp]


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## Cyphon (Jan 9, 2013)

*Thoughts so far from the beginning up to page 400 (spoilers obviously)*


*Spoiler*: __ 



So far I have to say I feel a bit underwhelmed by everything. It all seems a bit too neat and clean and.....Organized. Everything a little too easy. I am still only halfway so I am hoping for a bit of a change along the way. 

- I still really liked the opening of the Prologue and Talmanes story. I find it very disappointing that he lived though. I am assuming he won't become any more relevant and he is really just another name now. I think he should have died and went out like a champ. 

- To my surprise I am actually okay with Elayne in this book. She is still mostly a bitch but she has been bearable. Acceptable as a leader. 

- We have had little of Matt but he is better in this book than he was in the previous 2. He still feels off some, but definitely closer to being how he was. I did like the back and forth him and Rand had in front of Tuon. Especially in the end when Matt one up'd Rand. 

- Androl has got to be my MVP of the book so far. His interactions with Pervera, leading the Black Tower back to glory and just generally being a good character. I also liked his little speech about the guys being men now instead of weapons and telling the Aes Sedai to respect them. He has been awesome. 

- I am liking that all of the generals have had their failure at this point and I am hoping this actually continues into some despair. The worst of it was Brynes party being shocked by Shara but it still wasn't enough. A couple named characters went down and we learn a lot of Aes Sedai died but nobody with any significance when it comes down to it. 


So yeah. I am enjoying the read to this point but it still all just feels somewhat empty to me. We need some bigger events to happen and actually grip us and grab our emotions. 


Oh yeah, just remembered. I liked the Rand/Tam sword fight as well. A really nice moment


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## Cyphon (Jan 9, 2013)

*Chapter 22*


*Spoiler*: __ 



Perrin is a beast in the Wolf Dream!


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## Naisutime (Jan 9, 2013)

Up to page 500

*Spoiler*: __ 



This battle don't make any sense whatsoever...

Before the Sharan's, Seanchan, Samma N'sei and the Black Tower joins the fight, and Rand leaves for Shayol Ghul, the lightside literally has enough channelers to put a thousand on each of the four battlefields (with at least another thousand in reserve).

The channelers available to the darkside was iirc around 150 Black Ajah, and perhaps 200 Asha'man if we're being _really_ generous. Them "dominating" (in Egwene's own words) any battlefield at any point in time before the Sharans arrived is ridiculous. 

The "thousand upon thousand" description of troops doesn't match whats required to match an army resisting the majority of the White Tower without channelers either. Hundred thousands upon hundred thousands would be a better description. 

Androl, y u no use Death Gates? 

On pluss side, Mat is almost back into form and better than in any of the two previous books. He's a bit overdone with all the clever comments and comparison, but I'm still enjoying it.

Elayne is not completely terrible and Egwene has been bearable even though the interaction between her and Tuon felt incredibly off.






Anony34215 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> im not really upset by moiraine not calling her mother, she's not really an aes sedai anymore



I'm not upset, I just wonder whether it's an oversight or intentional.


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## Damaris (Jan 9, 2013)

Krevitz said:


> I'm not upset, I just wonder whether it's an oversight or intentional.




*Spoiler*: __ 



i suspect it was intentional given that her role at that moment was to function as a "check yrself b4 you wreck yrself, idiots," and calling egwene mother would have jarred w/ that.


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## Naisutime (Jan 9, 2013)

Anony34215 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> i suspect it was intentional given that her role at that moment was to function as a "check yrself b4 you wreck yrself, idiots," and calling egwene mother would have jarred w/ that.




*Spoiler*: __ 



While that is true, I'm still surprised considering that even Romanda and Lelaine called her Mother, even when they viewed her as a figurehead. 

The other only time I can remember someone directly (other than conversations between friends) calling an Amyrlin by her name was when Alviarin used it as a means to manipulate Elida into surrendering control of the White Tower. This almost seem too casual by comparison.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 9, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _End of Ch.31_ 




"We will have to put our armies under the command of Matrim Cauthon ... May the Light watch over us."
:rofl


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## Cyphon (Jan 9, 2013)

Krevitz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I am curious where you are getting your numbers from. IIRC the Tower doesn't have all that many women in it (maybe 400 or so tops) and I don't remember the amount of Kin specifically but I don't think it was enough for thousands on each front. 

You also have to keep in mind how they are using them. A lot of the women who can channel are being used for supply trains and making gateways and such. 

Then there are those who are simply away such as those waiting outside of the Black Tower before they did come back to the battle. 

Lastly you should keep in mind that the majority of the Ashaman (if not all of them) are full Ashaman that trained under Taim who is an animal. So they are likely (on average) stronger than the channelers for the Light. 

As to your last point, does Androl know of Death Gates?


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## Naisutime (Jan 9, 2013)

Finished the book half an hour ago and I have to admit that I got pretty emotional regardless of what I thought of the quality of the book. I've followed Wheel of Time for 13 years and now I'm a bit lost on what to do other than finishing up the respect thread which will be my way of giving back for what WoT has given me.



Cyphon said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious where you are getting your numbers from. IIRC the Tower doesn't have all that many women in it (maybe 400 or so tops) and I don't remember the amount of Kin specifically but I don't think it was enough for thousands on each front.




*Spoiler*: __ 



The White Tower was officially split in 2 while, but in reality it was split in 3 with a silent 3'rd looking the events. Statements made over the course of the of series puts the Aes Sedai in the Tower at around 300 (post Dumai and Black Tower failure), Egwene had around the same numbers and the silent third should have similar numbers. This is backed up by statements in CoT&LoC (and another book where the number of Tower Aes Sedai was stated) where an Aes Sedai estimated the number of Shaido channelers to be around 300-400 supposedly was half the size Tower.

Each Aiel clan should have similar numbers putting them at around 4000 channelers total.

Then we have the Kin, which I seem to recall was at the very least a thousand strong. We should also keep in mind that the age restriction for learning the One Power was removed from White Tower which gained them _a lot_ of novices.

Lastly there are the Seafolk which basically are their own nation. Putting them at the same number as an Aiel clan would be reasonable, lowball even.

Putting the numbers together is pretty simple.






Cyphon said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Which is another thing I don't understand. Shadowspawn cannot pass through gateways so there was absolutely no reason to keep a lot off them tied off, at least until the Sharans showed up.

They were quite few, I'd be surprised if there were a hundred of them.

The average level of the darksiders is undoubtedly higher. Talent (as in how much you can channel) is shaped like a bellcurve, with most being in the middle. Aes Sedai recruit from the top half of the curve so the Black Ajah should naturally higher than a lot of wilders. However, even with the Asha'man, they're hideously outnumbered and outmatched with Angreal being available to the Aes Sedai.

Iirc, other Asha'man used it when they reinforced Elayne's army and even if they didn't, Logain would to have to have gone full retarded if he doesn't see the potential of Androl learning it.


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## Nimander (Jan 10, 2013)

Krevitz said:


> Finished the book half an hour ago and I have to admit that I got pretty emotional regardless of what I thought of the quality of the book. I've followed Wheel of Time for 13 years and now I'm a bit lost on what to do other than finishing up the respect thread which will be my way of giving back for what WoT has given me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It was stated flat-out that the weave for a Deathgate is just different enough than that for a regular Gateway that Androl couldn't learn it because of his weakness in the Power. Which I have no problem with, because the guy was just shy of being broken anyway, based on his feats in this book alone.


----------



## Nimander (Jan 10, 2013)

To those few out there that have finished the book, what was your overall impression? Fitting end? Slightly (or maybe for some of you, totally) disappointing? Or, like me, not perfect but with the good parts far outweighing the bad?


----------



## perman07 (Jan 10, 2013)

Just finished the book, have been awake for 21 hours now. Started  reading 2 days ago, so I have probably spent something  like 30 hours all together I believe. I didn't feel like I read slow, or  fast, just in my natural pace. Though I did spend every moment I had  available, which was most of them since I only had to eat, shit, and do  some small errands. Concerning the book:

*Spoiler*: __ 




- Damn, this book was intense! So much war for so many pages. While there were many pages, it certainly wasn't because it was getting dragged out.
- I have to echo whoever called Androl MVP Ashaman, he was goddamn awesome this book! The ability to use gateways *quickly* is truly the best defense I think exists in this series. Even Demandred would be stumped if Androl with a large circle could just gate those Balefires quickly back at him from behind him.
- Besides him, I would say all 3 main ta'varen were awesome too. And Egwene obviously snags a nice honorary place in the awesomeness gang this book (despite me finding her obnoxious in many other books).
- I agree that Demandred sort of delivered. However, his insistence on duelling with swordplay strikes me as kind of weird, and an anti-climactic way for him to go, despite Lan being awesome. Another weird thing about it is that he's shocked an age with no guns has people who can do swords better than him, him being the supposed brainiac he is and all.
- And I have a question if someone knows.. Was there any explanation for why Rand was reborn in Moridin's body? It's a convenient ending and all, and I don't mind it (a good ending is nice in such a long story), I just don't get how they switched bodies.
- And how did Alivia know about him being switched? Did those 3 "girlfriends" tell her? Cause she was supposed to "help him die" and all that, but it seemed more like she helped him live.


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## Nimander (Jan 10, 2013)

perman07 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



-Demandred's fatal flaw was that he had the compulsive need to prove himself better than everyone, at everything. You came at him with a sword? He'd beat you that same way, without help. Even if he hedged the bets in his favor by using tricks with the power. And, to a large degree, he was justified in his arrogance at thinking he was a master swordsman. Lan had to do what he essentially thought was a M.A.D move just to get close enough to deliver the final blow.

-My understanding is that Rand used that mysterious connection he had with Moridin after they crossed balefire streams to switch bodies. Moridin basically was burned out with how he was used as a conduit of the True Power, so as he lay dying, Rand was like, "Hey, an extra body. How convenient. As for how Alivia knew, I'm assuming he probably just told her one of the times when he was alone with her, though this is an assumption. And she helped him "die" in the sense that she helped him kill his identity as Rand, and start his new life in Moridin's body. Splitting hairs as far as that prophecy/viewing goes, but there it is.


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## perman07 (Jan 10, 2013)

Nimander said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




- Maybe it's just me, but I find the arrogant villain trope so fucking overused, that I get annoyed whenever I see it.
- Sounds plausible, though I remember nothing in the book that substantiates that...


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## Naisutime (Jan 10, 2013)

Nimander said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It was stated flat-out that the weave for a Deathgate is just different enough than that for a regular Gateway that Androl couldn't learn it because of his weakness in the Power. Which I have no problem with, because the guy was just shy of being broken anyway, based on his feats in this book alone.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Was it stated in AMoL? Because if that is the case, I must've missed it.

If it isn't, a Death Gate is basically a regular gateway with a touch of earth (after the weave for the gateway itself it finished) to make it move, open and close. I guess it might be conceivable that his talent might not work because of the extra touch of earth, however I do find it unlikely. 

Additionally, being weak in the power doesn't prevent you from learning anything. It just prevents you from using what you know, Solrilea taught Cadsuane Traveling despite being far from strong enough to use it herself etc.

But yeah, Androl would've been pretty broken if he could do that. Strong enough circle and he could take out a million Trollocs with a problem.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 10, 2013)

Finished 


*Spoiler*: _General thoughts, no spoilers_ 




I was well pleased with the book.  A few times I was near in tears.

Generally it was a good mix of things-that-we-knew-must-happen with things-that-we-thought-must-happen-but-didn't.

I was expecting some things to go quite differently (notably the ending) but I was satisfied with the way it played out.





*Spoiler*: _My thoughts, spoilers_ 




Mat is, of course, at total boss.  Enough said.

I was surprised at how little of a role Fain got.  About a chapter before he appeared it dawned on me "hey, we haven't seen Fain yet."  I expected Fain was going to play a more Gollum role rather than just popping up at the last minute to cause chaos.

I totally did not see Egwene's death coming.  I think it was the only notible death I didn't see coming well in advance.  I also kind of felt that Egwene's death was superfluous.  More an elaborate battlefield suicide than anything.

The battles were all very well done, but I personally had a huge headache trying to keep track of where everyone was.  Even before everyone starts popping around in gateways (or _shifting_).

Expected Rand would die and Nyneave would fulfill the book-1 claim that she "wouldn't be satisfied until she healed someone three days dead."  I did expect that part of the process would put Rand in Mordain's body.

Kind of would have liked a bigger epilogue.  Not for Rand so much as for everyone else.  Take us a few years into the future, did Rand's peace hold?  How are the Aiel faring?  Did Perrin get crowned King?  How will the white/black towers resolve?  Another 3-5 pages probably could have given a nice image of the world and would have added some additional closure.





*Spoiler*: _What I had expected, if anyone cares_ 




Going into the book I had predicted that Rand would find that the _Dark One_ was actually some sort of "super-villain" that was locked away by the heroes a long distant age.

I expected that Rand would kill the Dark One, who was not the sole-source-of-evil-in-the-universe, and that Fain would take his place eventually growing to become the new Dark One only to get sealed away by the aforementioned heroes.

The next age would be an age of men, so to speak, with Fain eventually growing to power in another age or two (where their "last battle" would involve creating the prison for him, my forecast assumes the "sealed by the creator in the moment of creation" bit to be some sort of distorted history, maybe the "white tower" of the age uses the title Creator for their head or something?).


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## Nimander (Jan 10, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> Finished
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _General thoughts, no spoilers_
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



-Yes. Mat was very much a boss in this book. Except for a few moments when he was with Tuon, I absolutely loved him in this book.

-Fain was a waste of buildup and a character. As much as I loved the book overall, this was one of my few, but big complaints with it. He was the "wild card" (Author's words) and ended up being not very much of a threat at all. So was definitely disappointing.

-I can agree with you on the battles being well done. Lan was a consummate badass, and I think I can say I enjoyed every battle scene he was in, especially when he took down Demandred

-I was obliquely kind of expecting this too, that the whole "3-day allusion" would play out someway. But the way things did play out, I find I have no issue with. I kind of have the larger issue of Nynaeve and Moiraine having practically no role in things until the very end, but even that doesn't stick in my craw all that much

-Yes. A larger epilogue would've been MUCH better. I was, and still am willing to give a little leeway on this because while this was meant to be the end of Rand's tale, it was never meant to be the very last WoT book. And for all we know, it may not be. If Jordan left detailed enough notes on how he wanted his sequel book/series to go then we may indeed see it. 

But I do still wish we'd seen some of these things in the book. This did bring an end to Rand's tale, but part of the reason why the series was so loved was that fans had a variety of characters to connect to and love (and in some instances hate). And with how much attention so many of them got throughout the series, I would've expected that they would've at least gotten something in regards to their ultimate conclusion.

Maybe this sequel will happen (which I have mixed feelings about). Or maybe the things we're curious about will be addressed in this WoT-encyclopedia I hear is coming out. Either way, I'd just like a bit more closure to the series, because it did feel like we were left hanging in many ways.


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## Nimander (Jan 10, 2013)

Krevitz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It was stated in the book. I distinctly remember it, though I balk at finding exactly where because of how massive it is. 

And I should've replaced "learn" with "do" in my post, as I didn't mean to confuse you with that.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 10, 2013)

Nimander said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




I'm sure it's some mix of "the author wanted it to end vaguely" and "the publisher wanted to test the water for spin-offs."

Still I don't see the harm in a quick "this is the way things are headed."  Like I said, 3-5 pages would probably be plenty and would still leave _tons_ of room for other authors in the future to fill out details.

Just a quick glimpse at each of the (living) major characters.  Perrin inheriting the throne and ruling with Faile.  Mat struggling with the Seanchan empire and their "peace."  Nynaeve settling down with Lan (would also give a glimpse of how the White tower sorts out).

That would cover all the major things save the Black Tower (which Nynaeve could touch on potentially as well).

(And maybe a glimpse at Rand/Elayne/Min/Aviendha though I can understand leaving that out)


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## UchihaItachimk (Jan 10, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



How did Egwene and gawyn died spoiler me pls


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 10, 2013)

UchihaItachimk said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> How did Egwene and gawyn died spoiler me pls



*Spoiler*: __ 




Gawyn died in a combination of using the Seanchan assassin rings and trying to fight Demandred by himself (using a copy of Mat's anti-magic medallion).  He technically got away from Demandred but died before he could get to healers.

Egwene died after killing Taim.  The Forsaken were using Balefire to try and destabilize the pattern (cracks in the world that have only blackness within), Egwene came up with a weave that reduced this effect and drew upon more power than she could handle in order to keep the pattern from breaking apart.


*Spoiler*: _Even deeper spoilers touching on the ending_ 




While Egwene's death somewhat struck me as a needless death (she could have formed a circle and used more power that way), her being dead did allow her to interact with Rand while he was facing the Dark One, which may have been the kick in the pants he needed to win.


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## Cyphon (Jan 11, 2013)

Finished.

My thoughts on it:


*Spoiler*: __ 



For a good chunk of the book I found it all very pedestrian. It was well balanced and a neat way to keep everyone involved but there was just really no despair. It did come later on but I think I would have liked to see it spread out more instead of done progressively which makes things less surprising. I didn't know which characters would die but it is a bit of a cop out to just start throwing people away in the end, especially when people know or suspect that will be the outcome. Or if you _are_ going to do it that way, do it with some characters that count. 1 of the "big 3" or 1 of Rands 3 girls etc....

That said, I really did start feeling the emotion of it all later in the book. With deaths starting to pile up and more "real" heroics so to speak. Not just everyone charging in and getting happy endings but actual death and rage. 

There is a lot to remember and take in but I will try and list things I liked and didn't like.

- Liked Egwene in this book. Although I have liked her previously as well for how she carries herself. Yes, she can be a bitch like every other woman in the books but she was a boss when it came to taking punishment and handeling adversity. It didn't change in this book and really only got better.

- Loved the improvement on how Matt was written. I won't say it was perfect but it was A LOT better than he was under Sanderson before this. Someone must have finally said something to him or he has been reading forums and shit. Sticking with Matt.....I kind of wished he would have died when the mist got him. Not that I want him dead but as I pointed out above, if you are going to throw a bunch of deaths at us give us some shockers.

- Liked how Damandred was handled. He actually had an impact and was putting in work on the good guys. Ran through a bunch of them and I have to say, each time I was expecting him to fall in some basic will power fight or revenge fight. 

I know I am leaving things out but I want to get to some things that bothered me.

- While I thought the book had a pretty good balance, I am disappointed that some of the major players didn't have more prominent roles or more impact. I am looking at Taim and Logain mostly, but I also though Graendal and Moghedian could have played bigger parts as well. Graendal turning people was all good but that should have been expanded on and allowed for some emotional fights instead of the quick killing of Rhuarc Aviendha had. I thought that was a big waste. As far as Taim and Logain.....I just expected bigger things for them, especially Logain. Might have been a bit predictable but I was honestly hoping that those 2 had it out. 

- Morain and Nynaeve. Same as the above point really. Moraine had one of the great moments in the book and probably the best moment in the first half or more with her arrival to calm Rand and fix the meeting, but beyond that....Their part was pretty shitty when it was all said and done. I don't feel like they actually did anything. 

- Thom. He didn't really need a major role but I still like the guy and would have liked a little more from him. Some actual Warder stuff. I will say, his moment later in the book was pretty sick. Composing a balad as the world ends and flicking knives into peoples backs so casually. Another one of the best moments in the book IMO. 

- Bryne and to a less extent, Siuans deaths. They were both basically off paneled. Siuan was kind of involved so okay. Bryne though.....He didn't even get any feats and stories about his death. Something like "He took at a Mydral and 10 Trollocs in his rage. We knew he was a great general...." Something along those lines. I felt kind of cheated that he was kind of brushed over in death.  


A couple of questions:

1. Weren't we told somewhere that Alivia was a darkfriend? I swear I remember something like that.

2. I also remember something about someone stepping over Rands body or something like that in one of the visions. Am I imagining that or did it happen more subtely and I missed it?


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## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



yeah logain was supposed to step over rand's body, laughing iirc.

doing another re-read this saturday, but as i've been thinking, i think my final review of this will probably be "botched utterly and completely, yet at the same time gave me what i wanted in an ending."


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 11, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Logain "stepping over Rand's body" probably refers to him taking over as the head of the Black Tower / Grand Pooba of Male Channels."


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## perman07 (Jan 11, 2013)

I was one who insisted on spoiler tags, but I'm getting tired of them. There's people who haven't read 900 pages, it's been 3 days already

*Spoiler*: __ 




I will say this, I think Rand, Moridin, Morraine and Nyneave's parts in the book were decidedly anti-climatic. The battles were way more exciting than this protracted standing still and imagining worlds. And Moridin? That dude has so not lived up to all his hype. A channeler only matched by Lews Therin, and they end in a fucking sword fight, so disappointing.

I think it would have been better if Shayul Ghul was heavily guarded, perhaps by the Dreamspike that was apparently more important at the Black Tower than at were the Dark One himself had to defend.

In that way, the mentioned players could have their parts at the very end of the book and be a little bit more proactively involved earlier, and we could see Moridin be a badass for once. Cause the thing is, Moridin was a disappointment in the first 3 books too, never fighting properly as a channeler, only fighting with a sword in The Great Hunt, and fighting in Tel'aran'rhiod with dream techniques.

Jordan spent lots of books developing Moridin as Rand's nemesis almost, and he was totally underutilized.


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## masamune1 (Jan 11, 2013)

.



> Question: What about the outriggers? (The sequel trilogy to the Wheel of Time series that Robert Jordan had planned to write.)
> 
> Answer: It's not going to happen. Harriet and I are both firm on this. Robert Jordan wouldn't have wanted it to happen. He said that he wanted the series to be finished, but he did not want anything more. (He was even uncomfortable with the idea of someone like myself finishing the series.)
> 
> ...



Oh, and its not on e-book because Jordan's wife doesn't want to risk it not hitting No .1 (and apparently if she had her way, the e-book wouldn't have been out for a whole year).


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## perman07 (Jan 11, 2013)

^Well, not unexpected, but kind of disappointing that RJ didn't have any notes about what would happen later or such that could be just put on the internet or something.


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## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

> (He was even uncomfortable with the idea of someone like myself finishing the series.)



sigh                .


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## masamune1 (Jan 11, 2013)

perman07 said:


> ^Well, not unexpected, but kind of disappointing that RJ didn't have any notes about what would happen later or such that could be just put on the internet or something.



We could always petition to see those two sentences.


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## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

that mat & tuon take seanchan novel would have been a dream


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## Cyphon (Jan 11, 2013)

A little bit different than what you guys are talking about but I saw an interview where Sanderson had talked about giving certain characters more backstory but Harriet didn't want them in the book so he got permission and is putting them in some other kind of book or something like that (sorry I am not more specific). Didn't know if anyone knew of this or would be interested.


Another thing. I have been over on Dragonmount seeing what people are saying about the book and a few reminded me of something I forgot to mention that IMO, is kind of important. Some of Sandersons word choices absolutely did not fit the feel of the book. Certain terms were too modern or just didn't seem like something the characters would know or say. On DM people used the word "jarring" to describe how they felt seeing some of the words and I can agree with that word choice.


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## Naisutime (Jan 11, 2013)

perman07 said:


> ^Well, not unexpected, but kind of disappointing that RJ didn't have any notes about what would happen later or such that could be just put on the internet or something.



Not really outriggers, but I'm pretty sure we'll have another "The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time" type book. I saw an admin on DM saying that it's going to be out in a year or something.

At least it's something.


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## Cyphon (Jan 11, 2013)

Krevitz said:


> Not really outriggers, but I'm pretty sure we'll have another "The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time" type book. I saw an admin on DM saying that it's going to be out in a year or something.
> 
> At least it's something.



Its an Encyclopedia. Will most likely just be every bit of knowledge summed up. But we can hope to see some of the notes and things Jordan left.


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## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

honestly at this point, i just want jordan's notes published. if they do do something like that, i'll put those on my wheel of time shelf as the ending. maybe keep tgs/tom/amol somewhere else.

i'm glad to know the ending, but at the same time.
i don't know.
i need to think more
and maybe have a crying jag while holding my tor paperbacks


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## Naisutime (Jan 11, 2013)

Cyphon said:


> Its an Encyclopedia. Will most likely just be every bit of knowledge summed up. But we can hope to see some of the notes and things Jordan left.



I'll take all I can get, I'm especially interested in more info on:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Shara, because that came right out of nowhere. It had some mentions like other Forsaken no caring about it because the Last Battle was going to be in the Westlands anyway, and then a continents worth of their soldiers pours out of a gateway...




That said, it's no substitute for Mat&Tuon retaking Seachan or alternatively something about Noal Farstraider


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 11, 2013)

perman07 said:


> ^Well, not unexpected, but kind of disappointing that RJ didn't have any notes about what would happen later or such that could be just put on the internet or something.





Krevitz said:


> Not really outriggers, but I'm pretty sure we'll  have another "The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time" type  book. I saw an admin on DM saying that it's going to be out in a year or  something.
> 
> At least it's something.



Yes, they're making a new guidebook to the world pulling in things from RJ's notes.  I don't know that it will be out in a year though.

_Hopefully_ it will include a section on life in the next age, though who knows?


----------



## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

Krevitz said:


> I'll take all I can get, I'm especially interested in more info on:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



i would have loooooooooooooooooved


*Spoiler*: __ 



an outrigger about demandred turning an entire _nation_ to the shadow
dude was a badass, even when we only got hints and i'm glad i finally got proof of my favorite forsaken being one of the most competent


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 11, 2013)

Krevitz said:


> I'll take all I can get, I'm especially interested in more info on:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



There were subtle hints for a long time that Demandred was in Shara and that he had armies under his command.

Granted them all pouring out of one @#$@ing huge gateway along with 400+ channellers was a bit of a shock.  Really that should have been the end of the war right there.




Though really 


*Spoiler*: _EvilMoogle's Musing_ 




Demandred:
- Had access to a sa'angreal on the same order of power as the sword-that-ain't
- Was commanded to wield balefire in the name of the dark lord
- Wants to win the last battle

He really should have just given the White Tower the same treatment that Rand tried to do to Grendal and erased the whole bloody thing.  Deprive the light of 300-800 female channelers in one shot with almost no chance of being detected (given that Rand is rarely at the White Tower and women can't normally detect males channeling).

Reread the book and cut out all the Aes Sedai and see how things fare for the light


----------



## Naisutime (Jan 11, 2013)

Anony34215 said:


> i would have loooooooooooooooooved
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



With Demandred as the MC?

Dunno man, I have a feeling that Demandred wouldn't make a good MC unless written by someone more competent than Sanderson. Perhaps GRRM could've done it.


----------



## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



isn't his sa'angreal _more_ powerful?






Krevitz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



i mean if jordan were still alive, obviously. grrm is a good writer, not sure if he's suited for the magic-focused world of wot tho


----------



## Naisutime (Jan 11, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Iirc there were a lot of people convinced that he was masquerading as Rodrean, thankfully that wasn't the case. I also remember some statements from the Forsaken that events in the south looked like something Demandred could've done. 

I never guessed that he was in Shara although I hoped it would become involved in the storyline at some point. 






EvilMoogle said:


> *Spoiler*: _EvilMoogle's Musing_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



He really should, but he let the thoughts of besting Lews Therin go too far. At some point I started regarding him as only slightly less batshit crazy than Ishy and that's saying something.

Don't understand how the light side didn't have everything in hand before Shara arrived. Their channelers outnumbered the darksiders more than 4 to 1 (heck, that's the Aiel alone) and had access to angreal. There should be literally nothing left of the Trolloc army when the Sharan's arrived.

I also cannot believe that the Sharan's also had a mere 400 channelers when their continent is larger than any bar Seachan.

I'll provide a quote:


> _Even Wise ones die from, sickness, snakebites and accidents. Some died at Dumai's Wells. We found bodies left behind, and the Shaido must have carried those they could for a proper burrial. Even Shaido cannot have abandoned all custom. If all who remain alive are down below, and apparentices who can channel, I would say perhaps four hundred, perhaps more, but fewer than five hundred. There were fewer than five hundred Shaido wise who could channel fore they crossed the Dragonwall, and perhaps fifty apprentices._
> [...]
> _  Still staring at the Shaido camp, Annoura made a strangeled sound, half a sob. ?Five hundred? Light! Half the Tower from one clan? Oh, light!?_
> CoT








Anony34215 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> i mean if jordan were still alive, obviously. grrm is a good writer, not sure if he's suited for the magic-focused world of wot tho




*Spoiler*: __ 



No he isn't, but I admit that he's great at writing characters despite the fact that I don't like ASoIaF. I think he could write a somewhat obsessed gray character like Demandred pretty well.


----------



## masamune1 (Jan 11, 2013)

^ You think Demandred is _gray?_

The man fed entire cities to Trollocs, for Light's sake. And his entire excuse is that he is incredibly smart, rich, handsome, powerful, famous...and it boils his blood that there is someone _slightly_ better than him.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 11, 2013)

Anony34215 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> isn't his sa'angreal _more_ powerful?



*Spoiler*: __ 



Logain mused "as powerful as the-sword-that-ain't, maybe even more."

However I'm personally using the previous statement that the-sword-that-ain't was the second strongest sa'angreal created (that a male can use), so unless they forged a new, stronger one for him it must be weaker.

Chalk it up to some combination of Logain being power-hungry/jealous and being on a chaotic battlefield and not having a chance to accurately gauge it's power.

(Alternatively Logain only knows the power of the-sword-that-ain't based on using it himself and Demandred is in all likelihood more powerful than Logain was, which Logain might have been reluctant to admit thus assuming the sa'angreal was more powerful than it was)


----------



## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

he's certainly grayer than most of the other forsaken, and has enough of a character that writing his descent could be interesting rather than POWER POWER POWER. 




EvilMoogle said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



i guess i was basing my assumption off of the fact that there are for sure two sa'angreal more powerful than callandor, based off of lanfear's statement in tsr, and it would make sense that if there's no knowledge of something stronger than callandor in the legends of randland, then it might have ended up elsewhere as a result of the breaking ie shara, and would have made sense for demandred to have his hands on it, especially as their "wyld".


----------



## Naisutime (Jan 11, 2013)

masamune1 said:


> ^ You think Demandred is _gray?_
> 
> The man fed entire cities to Trollocs, for Light's sake. And his entire excuse is that he is incredibly smart, rich, handsome, powerful, famous...and it boils his blood that there is someone _slightly_ better than him.



Gray is perhaps the wrong word and was definitely wrong pre-AMoL.

AMoL spoiler

*Spoiler*: __ 



However in AMoL we see that he wants to save the world, only that he has to kill Lews Therin to get the Dark One to reshape the world the way that Demandred wants to save the people. 

I don't know what happened to him in Shara that made him want to save people instead of offering them up as Trolloc food, he doesn't seem like the same person who fed cities to Trollocs.


----------



## masamune1 (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't see how he is much grayer than the rest. 

Most of them have complex backstories, and few of them are interested in power for its own sake. But they all became monsters, and Demandred is the pettiest monster of the lot.

*EDIT-* Course, I haven't read MoL, so that is a point against me, but its still simplifying the other Forsaken. But that just sounds like he just wants to be the hero- he is basically Lex Luthor, but ten times as violent.


----------



## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

masamune1 said:


> I don't see how he is much grayer than the rest.
> 
> Most of them have complex backstories, and few of them are interested in power for its own sake. But they all became monsters, and Demandred is the pettiest monster of the lot.
> 
> *EDIT-* Course, I haven't read MoL, so that is a point against me, but its still simplifying the other Forsaken.



i think a lot of it hinges on my personal preference for characters who are less overtly evil for evil's sake, as much as people who might have started on the right path but grew more and more twisted. probably why i like mesaana and semirhage so much as well. as for the other forsaken; moridin/ishy believes the dark one winning is the only outcome, lanfear wants power, asmodean...not sure what he wanted, immortality i think, might be my faulty memory, sammael wanted to be the best(?)/power, graendal wanted eternal life of luxury/power(?), aginor went to the shadow for more messing w/ biology, balthy also wanted immortal life, be'lal was envious, moggy idr, not sure if we ever got a reason?, rahvin turned for power.

i mean arguably some of them are complex, but some aren't, seems like a fairly even split.


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## masamune1 (Jan 11, 2013)

Anony34215 said:


> i think a lot of it hinges on my personal preference for characters who are less overtly evil for evil's sake, as much as people who might have started on the right path but grew more and more twisted. probably why i like mesaana and semirhage so much as well. as for the other forsaken; moridin/ishy believes the dark one winning is the only outcome, lanfear wants power, asmodean...not sure what he wanted, immortality i think, might be my faulty memory, sammael wanted to be the best(?)/power, graendal wanted eternal life of luxury/power(?), aginor went to the shadow for more messing w/ biology, balthy also wanted immortal life, be'lal was envious, moggy idr, not sure if we ever got a reason?, rahvin turned for power.
> 
> i mean arguably some of them are complex, but some aren't, seems like a fairly even split.



All of them are supposed to have started off as decent people (_except_ Semirhage- she is a sadistic, narcissistic sociopath and always was), with a few being jerks at worst. The Bore and the Dark One brought out the worst in them, gradually usually, until the lot of them were utter bastards.

Ishamael just wants it all to end- he is driven by nihilism and despair; Lanfear wanted power and glory, but she really did have feelings for Lews Therin (I think she was most like Demandred- both wanted to be given their due love and respect); Asmodean wanted to perfect his music and be respected as a great artist (I think its mentioned, or at least implied, that he had an overbearing mother who made sure he thought of nothing else); Sammael thought everyone judged him for being short; Graendal turned bad because no-one could live up to her high moral standards; etc. 

Demandred is like Lex Luthor- he wants to kill Superman (Lews / Rand) because he feels oppressed by his existence. He's be the greatest man of his Age if the other guy wasn't around, and he can't stand it. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Even the whole "killing Rand to save the world" sounds like Luthor's spiels about how he could cure cancer, end famine, and all that other stuff- but only when Superman is dead. He is probably nicer to the people of Shara just because they give him the respect he feels he deserves, esp. with all that "Dragonslayer" stuff. But he's still the same guy who fed cities to Trollocs because he feels they slighted him- its an abusive "you made me hurt you" situation.

In his warped mind, if he kills Rand, then he can make himself the hero of the story (as in "star of the show", not as in "good guy"). And he is so arrogant and crazy that he thinks the Dark One reshape the world to his (Demandred's) liking probably for not other reason than "WELL, DEMANDRED, SINCE YOU ARE SO AWESOME, ALRIGHT." 




Of course, I should still probably read the damn novel, but thats the impression I'm getting from spoiling myself rotten.

Complexity is more of an issue of how much time is spent on a character, and showing the different sides of their personality and life. Every character is complex (or can be, at least)- its a matter of _showing_ it. WoT is just not really the best series for that type of thing (not the worst, but not the best).


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 11, 2013)

[sp=Start of Chapter 35]Bela really is the Creator in disguise.[/sp]


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## Damaris (Jan 11, 2013)

semirhage is an awesome narcissistic sociopath tho.
i wish we'd seen more of her-mesaana-demandred triangle rather than just at meetings
i liked how those two argued to rescue her



> Sammael thought everyone judged him for being short



i'm sorry but in between all these awesome kind of lofty reasons the others have, the way you just nonchalantly slipped this in made me chuckle. which is a stupid word. so maybe i giggled. chuggled. 

didn't rand/ltt state that lanfear never really loved him, just the power that came with being with him? i can't remember if that was ever concretely settled one way or another.


*Spoiler*: __ 



i think demandred was less "the great lord will do this because i awesome" and more like haven't the forsaken always thought that they would be given their own kingdoms to rule over as well as immortal life after they won? i'm p sure they've mentioned that quite a few times throughout the series in their POVs that they assume they are going to be set up as kings and queens outright. and then he was just going to take control of shara, in the end, and make it his kingdom. i always did wonder what the forsaken ruling outright would be like. 




i would argue that there are some forsaken who are outright not complex. rahvin comes to mind. but the majority of the ones focused on are, it's true.


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## masamune1 (Jan 11, 2013)

Anony34215 said:


> i'm sorry but in between all these awesome kind of lofty reasons the others have, the way you just nonchalantly slipped this in made me chuckle. which is a stupid word. so maybe i giggled. chuggled.



That was my evil plan.



> didn't rand/ltt state that lanfear never really loved him, just the power that came with being with him? i can't remember if that was ever concretely settled one way or another.



He said it; it was probably mostly true, but I think at least she _thought_ that she loved him. As far as i know she never pursued anyone else. 

I think she was sortof lonely, and tried to fill the void with power and glory. She was supposedly the most powerful female channeler in the world, so maybe their was an Aizen-type "have trouble relating to people" thing going on, and she wanted to be with Lews / Rand simply because he was the most powerful man while she was the most powerful woman, so why wouldn't they be a perfect match?



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> i think demandred was less "the great lord will do this because i awesome" and more like haven't the forsaken always thought that they would be given their own kingdoms to rule over as well as immortal life after they won? i'm p sure they've mentioned that quite a few times throughout the series in their POVs that they assume they are going to be set up as kings and queens outright. and then he was just going to take control of shara, in the end, and make it his kingdom. i always did wonder what the forsaken ruling outright would be like.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, but bare in mind they constantly schemed against and hated one another as well. Most of them seemed to regard the others as competition, since the more Forsaken their are the smaller the slice of pie they will get. Demandred had a massive ego and was more or less dismissive of the rest of the Forsaken- the only guy he cared about beating was Rand, and the rest didn't even come into the equation except as rivals to be eliminated (didn't he, Mesanna and Semirhage agree to not-kill each other until _after_ the other Forsaken were dead?). Demandred just took it or granted that he was the greatest and most deserving amongst them, and assumed that if anyone was able to see that, it would be the Great Lord of the Dark. 






> i would argue that there are some forsaken who are outright not complex. rahvin comes to mind. but the majority of the ones focused on are, it's true.



Yeah, but on the other hand Rahvin is not given a lot of development nor page-time, and has only 1 POV chapter in the whole story. His entry in the Guide even says that he is the Forsaken about whom the least is known. So, really, its less that he's not-complex than we're not really shown how complex he might be.


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## Shivers (Jan 12, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _mild spoiler for chapter 16, i guess?_ 



Lan taking on and killing two Fades.


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## Cyphon (Jan 15, 2013)

So how does everyone feel now that there has been some time to digest this more?

For me I can't help feeling a pretty big sense of loss and disappointment that we will never know how this would have went under RJ. Brandon Sanderson did well enough and it would be impossible to take over someone elses work and be great IMO, but satisfying or well enough just isn't what I wanted.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2013)

I still loved the book.

But I'll admit some disappointment that we won't get any of the others RJ talked about writing (2 more prequel books plus 1-or-more "tying up loose ends" books).

There's kind of a bittersweet feeling around the whole series for me too, I've been reading the books for 18 years I almost can't fathom that it's over.


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## perman07 (Jan 15, 2013)

I have the same feeling. I feel like it's not done, and I want to do a re-read already, but it wouldn't accomplish what I want, which is more closure.

But even with all the gripes I have with the last book (and I don't blame Sanderson) about things that I think Jordan would have resolved better, I still think the final book was one of the best reading experiences I've had. From start to end, it was fucking intense, a roller-coaster ride of a book.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2013)

It was at that.  It certainly is the most intense book of the series.


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## Cyphon (Jan 15, 2013)

I thought the book was 50/50 myself. I thought the early parts of the book were just okay and then later on is when it really picked up. When people started dying and things started to matter. You might even be able to split the book nearly in half for the good half and lesser half. I don't remember exactly when it flipped for me. 

And as I noted before some of the language threw me for a loop. It didn't fit the feel of the series. One thing I find odd or interesting is that Jordan's wife is still the editor of these books for Sanderson. So I am wondering how she let things like Matt (for all 3 books really) and the word choices happen. Maybe I am expecting too much of her but being married to the guy an the editor of the entire series I feel like these are things she should notice and take care of. 

The last thing I guess to say is that there are just so many things to nitpick at and wonder what happen to them. For example I didn't think Perrin felt like the Wolf Kind much in this book. Elyas was the one running with the wolves. I am still curious about the vision of Logain stepping over Rand as well. I could go on but man......It was good but not quite what I had hoped for.


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## perman07 (Jan 15, 2013)

^Well, I don't disagree with any of the things you mention, I just didn't mind in the midst of that intense first read, which was just overwhelming me so that I was more feeling the action than analyzing the continuity.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 15, 2013)

not really a spoiler just a question
*Spoiler*: __ 



Okay so what happened to the Shaido?


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## Drizzt (Jan 15, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> not really a spoiler just a question
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



we won't know if ever. However, I would like to think that the vision that Aviendha saw at Rhuidean would be the final fate of the Shaido. After all, they will no longer be consider part of the Aiel and they were excluded from the Dragon's Peace.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 15, 2013)

So only two of my top three hated characters died, eh, I can somewhat live with that.

I loved the very ending... the ending Code Geass should have had. You can tell from where the book left off that Jordan had plans to write that Mat/Seanchan book, very fucking sad that we will never get the chance to read it all. The simple fact that he planned to write a Mat book says he didn't want to end the story where it is now.



Drizzt said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> we won't know if ever. However, I would like to think that the vision that Aviendha saw at Rhuidean would be the final fate of the Shaido. After all, they will no longer be consider part of the Aiel and they were excluded from the Dragon's Peace.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Granted, but the visions are seeing through ancestors or direct decedents. Aviendha has no business having a Shaido descendant since she will have immediate children of Rand. I don't like how only 1/10 of the Aiel are alive, but the Shaido dog robbers are not part of that. I had wanted to read that Demandred killed them while transporting the Sharans across Randland. At this point the Aiel survivors will not have enough people or strength to destroy the Shaido and can easily be wiped out.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 15, 2013)

didn't the shaido just sort of get split up bc of graendal and moridin trolling them with screwed up gateways

i assume they're all mostly dead now?


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## Nae'blis (Jan 15, 2013)

Just after Faile was saved we had the chapter about the Shaido going back to the Three-fold Land. Moridin decided not to do anything about them, but Greandal and Samael(?)


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## perman07 (Jan 15, 2013)

^That was mostly Sammael who split them up, but they gathered in Malden and after the battle in Knife of Dreams, the remaining Shaido left back to the Waste.

EDIT Got beaten to it..


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## Drizzt (Jan 15, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> So only two of my top three hated characters died, eh, I can somewhat live with that.
> 
> I loved the very ending... the ending Code Geass should have had. You can tell from where the book left off that Jordan had plans to write that Mat/Seanchan book, very fucking sad that we will never get the chance to read it all. The simple fact that he planned to write a Mat book says he didn't want to end the story where it is now.
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



The only part of the Shaido that survived what the huge mass of people that were part of Therava's group. In KOD, Therava wanted to rebuild the Shaido and stay in the three-fold land. However, when I suggested that the vision were Shaido's fate - I suggested it because of three reasons. 

1. Aviendha was not seeing the future of a Shaido but the future of all Aiel should they been kept out of the Dragon's Peace. It was confirmed by Bair who went into the Arcs after Aviendha told them of the fate. Bair said that she had similar experience about the destruction of the Aiel. 

2. Second, they are no longer considered part of the Aiel. The few references of them are made Aiel and Shaido. Thus, since they are not considered Aiel - they are not part of the Dragon's Peace. That mean beside Sharans and them - the other nations can destroy them and hunt them down because they were not part of the bargain. I would like to believe that the Seanchan would go after the Sharan and Shaido for their marath'damane because they are not part of the bargain. 

3. I found that that RJ had a wicked sense of humor and a since of irony about the fate of each antagonist. Just like the Shaido has done to the other - thus will the wheel turn and do the same as to them.


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## Nimander (Jan 16, 2013)

Overall, I feel the same that we never got to know how it would've been had RJ had the chance to finish it with his own hand. Despite how the story did drag on at many points, there was a care and attention given to many details that Sanderson didn't or couldn't emulate. Plus I also hate how we'll never know how many other things would've come to resolution. I could tell a few things based on his writing, that 1) Lan and Mat were his "favorite" characters, just based on how they were written and the attention given to them, and 2) the Aiel and Seanchan cultures were his favorite to conceptualize, for those very same reasons. So I would've LOVED to have seen where he ultimately wanted Mat's character to go, along with exploring more of the intricacies of the Seanchan culture and continent.

But, all that said, I still loved the book, like many others. There were definitely parts and aspects of it I didn't like. There were some plotholes and there were definitely loose ends aplenty. So my satisfaction is far from being as complete as I would like, especially knowing that all we're going to get is a guide after this to tie things up. But life is what it is, not what I wish it to be. And I can accept that this is all we're going to get. And I can be content with that, because it has been an amazing ride, life-changing (for me at least) in its own small way, and I'm glad I was alive in the times it came out, and that I got to follow it all the way to the end.


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## Ishamael (Jan 16, 2013)

Overall I feel that up until the later of half of The Last Battle (the chapter) nothing really of consequence happened. Almost no plot lines were wrapped up for the the first 800 pages of the book and everything happened in the last 100 pages it seemed. But I suppose that's a reflection of the series as a whole. 
The more I think about the book overall though and the ending to the series the more it just doesn't sit well. The entire novel was basically one big battle with nothing afterward. Was it really not possible to remove some of the battle fluff and give us an expanded epilogue? I understand why RJ wouldn't feel the need to do that because he planned additional novels but considering this is the last WoT book we will ever recieve I wanted to know more of what happened to the characters.  

Random musings:

- Moiraine and Nynaeve spent the majority of the book just staring at Rand and Moridin, was there really nothing more useful they could have done? This is even worse with Moiraine when she was rescued last book to just stand around in this one

-Alanna just being so utterly irrelevant, "hey look she's right there next to us in Shaol Ghul" when again she was kind of a thing in the last book

-Padan Fain, lol just lol. What was the purpose of this guy again? He was just in book after book and even at the end did nothing. He should have been killed of earlier

-Verin's letter containing information on all the Black Ajahwh which were kind of a thing in the last book turned out to be completely irrelevent

-The Sea Folk are just utterly useless. I waited book after book for them to be of some use but what we get is "we're holding back a big storm"

-Lan should have just died, seriously.

-Not killing the DO. Rand and his world without the DO seemed to imply that there could be no evil without the DO which is outright contradicted by the books. The evil in Shadar Logoth is specifically stated to not be at all related to the DO. Furthermore with the DO completely sealed now and unable to affect the pattern how is that any different from him being dead? He can't affect the world now until another bore is created in the next Age of Legends or until a later age when somebody trys to open it so how exactly is the DO supposed to make people evil in the coming ages if he literally cannot affect the Pattern?


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## perman07 (Jan 16, 2013)

Ishamael said:


> Overall I feel that up until the later of half of The Last Battle (the chapter) nothing really of consequence happened. Almost no plot lines were wrapped up for the the first 800 pages of the book and everything happened in the last 100 pages it seemed. But I suppose that's a reflection of the series as a whole.
> The more I think about the book overall though and the ending to the series the more it just doesn't sit well. The entire novel was basically one big battle with nothing afterward. Was it really not possible to remove some of the battle fluff and give us an expanded epilogue? I understand why RJ wouldn't feel the need to do that because he planned additional novels but considering this is the last WoT book we will ever recieve I wanted to know more of what happened to the characters.


You have to remember, Jordan intended book 12 and 13 to be part of the  same book as 14, thus it wouldn't just be 1 book containing the last  battle, but the prelude to it as well.

And he would probably add more shit to the epilogue, afterthoughts that Sanderson couldn't make.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 16, 2013)

perman07 said:


> And he would probably add more shit to the epilogue, afterthoughts that Sanderson couldn't make.


Actually I think it's the opposite.

RJ had mentioned in interviews that he planned on writing an epilogue book (or books) to tie up loose ends he knew couldn't be finished in "book 12."

From some interviews it's pretty clear that Sanderson isn't going to be able to do these hypothetical books (for a combination of reasons).  And I'm willing to bet that given that the last chapter was dictated by RJ in its entirety they were reluctant to make any changes more than cosmetic editing.


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## perman07 (Jan 16, 2013)

^Possibly, though conclusions tend to logically follow when everything else has been written. Meaning I wouldn't be surprised if RJ would have added a bit more once he had actually written the entirety of that book.


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## masamune1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Ishamael said:


> -Not killing the DO. Rand and his world without the DO seemed to imply that there could be no evil without the DO which is outright contradicted by the books. The evil in Shadar Logoth is specifically stated to not be at all related to the DO. Furthermore with the DO completely sealed now and unable to affect the pattern how is that any different from him being dead? He can't affect the world now until another bore is created in the next Age of Legends or until a later age when somebody trys to open it so how exactly is the DO supposed to make people evil in the coming ages if he literally cannot affect the Pattern?



I thought it was pretty clear in all the books and interviews that the Dark One was completely unkillable. It would have been antilclimatic if he died. 

Plus, we know that Semirhage, at least, was evil before the Bore was first made, so I think your assumption is simply wrong.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 16, 2013)

A lot of people were confused about the whole pretense of the series.  I can't believe the number of people I've talked to that assumed the "last battle" was going to actually be the "last battle."

Like they somehow missed the whole "wheel" concept.

(I was personally rooting for the Dark One to get killed and replaced with a new Dark One (Fain) under the explanation that he never was an immortal part of the universe but I had no doubt that whatever happened would be "as it was in ages past and will be in ages to come.")


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## Ishamael (Jan 16, 2013)

masamune1 said:


> I thought it was pretty clear in all the books and interviews that the Dark One was completely unkillable. It would have been antilclimatic if he died.
> 
> Plus, we know that Semirhage, at least, was evil before the Bore was first made, so I think your assumption is simply wrong.


That's my point. We know that the DO isn't the source of all evil and that without him people still have the capacity to be evil. Everyone wouldn't be mindless automatons of good without the DO as Rand's vision implied. 



EvilMoogle said:


> A lot of people were confused about the whole pretense of the series.  I can't believe the number of people I've talked to that assumed the "last battle" was going to actually be the "last battle."
> 
> Like they somehow missed the whole "wheel" concept.
> 
> (I was personally rooting for the Dark One to get killed and replaced with a new Dark One (Fain) under the explanation that he never was an immortal part of the universe but I had no doubt that whatever happened would be "as it was in ages past and will be in ages to come.")


I kinda expected that the DO wouldn't be killed but I've just never been happy with the explanation of his continued existence. Hes not part of the Pattern and he's supposed to be unable to effect the world through his prison so I just don't think he's as important as he should be.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 16, 2013)

Ishamael said:


> That's my point. We know that the DO isn't the source of all evil and that without him people still have the capacity to be evil. Everyone wouldn't be mindless automatons of good without the DO as Rand's vision implied.


Remember though, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Rand was the one that formed this particular version of the world.  And as I recall he had especial trouble in doing so ("as if this world was highly unlikely" or something like that).

Did he form "a world without the dark one" or "a world without evil?"  He may have not realized there's a difference between the two and envisioned the latter when he really wanted the former.


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## masamune1 (Jan 16, 2013)

He does bring out the worst in people though. Even Mashadar only came into being as an attempt to fight the Dark with its own methods. And most of the Forsaken and people of the Age of Legends in general were, at worst, jerks before he came along- long before he started recruiting people to his cause, his influence on the world was turning men into monsters and threatening to bring about the collapse of civilization. So he might not be the Source of All Evil, but he is the pinnacle and Evil is kind of lame without him, since the Age of Legends was borderline Utopian.

Also, its possible he _is_ the source of evil, and his taint just lasts long after he is sealed away- things will get better in Randland _eventually_ without him around, but there are still plenty of bad guys running around. Even someone like Semirhage might not have been possible if the Dark One had _never_ been unleashed on the world in Ages prior, if he left some sort of mark on the human soul. 

Just playing Devils Advocate here.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 16, 2013)

It could also be that he _does_ have an impact on the world while sealed away, it's just a much smaller impact than with the bore.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 16, 2013)

I had to push myself through about the last hundred pages because I didn't want it to end.  And now it is over.
[sp=End of book]I thoroughly enjoyed it. The only let down, imo, was Padan Fain popping up randomly and falling far too quickly. I expect it was a thread Jordan left for subsequent stories.

As for the Dark One being the Source of All Evil, I think it plays into the True Power being part of the Pattern (at least that's what I took from Rand using it with the One Power to remove the Bore). Despite being outside of the Pattern, he still has power there, although greatly diminished.[/sp]


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## Ishamael (Jan 16, 2013)

masamune1 said:


> Also, its possible he _is_ the source of evil, and his taint just lasts long after he is sealed away- things will get better in Randland _eventually_ without him around, but there are still plenty of bad guys running around. Even someone like Semirhage might not have been possible if the Dark One had _never_ been unleashed on the world in Ages prior, if he left some sort of mark on the human soul.
> 
> Just playing Devils Advocate here.





EvilMoogle said:


> It could also be that he _does_ have an impact on the world while sealed away, it's just a much smaller impact than with the bore.


But nothing like that is ever hinted in the book. From what we're told while sealed the DO cannot affect the world and his influence should be non existent. The explanation for not killing the DO was just handled so poorly in my opinion and just contradicted prior books. 

If RJ wanted to go down this route where the DO is unkillable because people would be mindless drones then he should have made him a part of the Pattern not outside of it. 

Did we ever find out who the person pretending to be Sammael in the Ways was? I don't recall that being mentioned.


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## DocTerror (Jan 16, 2013)

Ok so I finished last night and have 2 quick questions

*Spoiler*: __ 



When rand left the cave before he collaspsed he saw an old woman Aiel. Was she the same one Aviendha saw in the waste and if so who is she?

Mat sent a bunch of villagers to defend the river who were wiped out and the at dawn Grady opened a gate and they were all alive again and attacked. Mat said he would explain later but never did. Any idea what happened?


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## Cyphon (Jan 16, 2013)

DocTerror said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Mat sent a bunch of villagers to defend the river who were wiped out and the at dawn Grady opened a gate and they were all alive again and attacked. Mat said he would explain later but never did. Any idea what happened?




*Spoiler*: __ 



They were from the village (forget the name) where Matt and company had stopped for a night. The villagers were cursed or whatever and when the sun was gone they turn into mindless zombies. Whether they die or not they always end up back in bed. So since they couldn't die Matt felt okay to use them in the battle


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## Drizzt (Jan 16, 2013)

DocTerror said:


> Ok so I finished last night and have 2 quick questions
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, it was confirmed by Brandon Sanderson that the old woman was Nekomi. Brandon Sanderson said that she was 'Deep' in RJ notes. I suppose that she was a correcting mechanism like Rand, Mat and Perrin, based on the implications made by Mr. Sanderson. 

It has been answered by the villagers are from Hinderstap - the village that was mentioned in the Gathering Storm.


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## The-Ice (Jan 19, 2013)

Hey guys, I'm in the middle of my exams at the moment so it's too dangerous to start reading the final book if i want to pass them all .. However I'm FULL of questions!
- Is Mat still as awesome as ever?
- The girl characters still as bossy as ever?
- How are the fights? 
- Lots of unexpected twists?

Can't wait to start reading


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 19, 2013)

Avoiding spoilers for you but some vague answers:


The-Ice said:


> - Is Mat still as awesome as ever?


Yes, Mat has some very awesome parts.  In the grand scheme of the Last Battle he's probably a bigger baller than Rand.



The-Ice said:


> - The girl characters still as bossy as ever?


They vary quite a bit.

Eqwene struck me as more bossy/annoying than she's been in a few books but she has some good moments to balance this out.

Elayne didn't strike me as "bossy" her role seems a weird fit for the character though IMO.

According to my memory Nynaeve doesn't have as big a role as the other two in this book, she's mostly in the background.



The-Ice said:


> - How are the fights?


Some are very, very epic.  Some are more or less average.  There's a lot of fights though I'm sure there's something for everyone (granted a few were missing IMO).



The-Ice said:


> - Lots of unexpected twists?


Depends on your predictive abilities 

A few things caught me off guard, a few things probably should have caught me off guard but I expected to happen.  A few things I expected to happen _didn't_ so I guess that could qualify as a twist as well.


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## Ruby Moon (Jan 21, 2013)

So I have A Memory of Light requested from my library, and while I've been waiting, I've been going to Barnes and Nobles to read a few chapters. Due to my vociferous reading habits, I've gone over more than half the book. 


*Spoiler*: _A Memory of Light_ 



Well damn, so much has gone on, and I wanted to read more about Mat and Tuon (now Empress Fortuona). Mat has a new name. I think Fortuona may have to give him a new name once she discovers that Mat blew the Horn of Valere, once Faile gets to deliver it to him, and she learns that he's married to the Seanchan Empress. 

I was quite disappointed with the meeting between Rand and Mat. Not too surprised with each other, despite all the things they've been through apart. I thought Rand would be more upset that Mat had married the enemy (not that she's as bad as the Forsaken or any of the Black Ajah, anyways), and Egwene...I realize that she's been traumatized very badly by the Seanchan, but how stupid could she be? And how is it that Gawyn didn't bother to rein in her temper while she met the Empress? Then again, Egwene knows nothing of Tuon's upbringing. 

Gotta feel bad for Lan, Elayne, Rodel, Agelmar and Bashere. Everyone on the Light's side is being played. Graendal (now Hessalam) has been sneaking around in The World of Dreams, so they don't know that she's seen their plans and has even Compelled them to do certain things to sabotage their side. Hurry, Perrin and Gaul, hurry!! Find Slayer, kill him, and then kill Graendal next!

Lanfear is still alive, I'm surprised. Still on her own side, I see. So she thinks she can use Perrin since she can't have Rand/Lews Therin? Better not turn to Mat, the Prince of the Ravens. And is my man kicking so much ass right now! Poor Min, now she's the Seanchan Empress' Truthspeaker. Do these people have the strangest customs. At least Tuon will get to learn just what Mat did to earn his eyepatch, and probably a whole lot more about her husband that she doesn't know. 

What do you guys think about the future that Aviendha saw in her second journey to Rhuidean?


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## perman07 (Jan 21, 2013)

What I think is that it's real weird that you even dare touch the WoT-thread when you haven't finished the book. I am terrified of discovering spoilers whenever I have such a treat in store for me, cause it really can ruin it.

Even what's outside the spoilers can somewhat spoil it.

I personally think it's time to remove the spoiler-tags soon, and people like you should just get metaphorically burned for your carelessness


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## Nae'blis (Jan 21, 2013)

At the end all I could think of was how pissed off Elan Morin was/is


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## DocTerror (Jan 24, 2013)

Heres some info from Sanderson about AMoL and beyond. 

Here


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## perman07 (Jan 24, 2013)

Thanks for the link, every little tidbit helps me get more closure on the whole WoT-issue.. I still think it's tragic Jordan couldn't finish it himself


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## martryn (Jan 24, 2013)

So we don't really know who Nekomi is?  

There were a couple of other things that really bothered me in this book, but now I can't remember what most of them were.  The ending was solid, but not fantastic.  At the very end Perrin was thinking he was no longer taveren, but Loial would have known when he saw them, right?  But from Loial's point of view, it seemed as if they were taveren still, as he referred to them as the three taveren.  

Also, Rand can now influence the pattern to light pipes?

And the Tinkers and their search for the song.  Was that ever explored in any detail?

I'm glad I took my time reading this.  There were times when I had to slow myself down because I was skipping ahead.  Painful, almost.  

Still, my largest complaint about the series remains: it's too damn big.  The last book does a pretty good job tying things up, but it made references to things that I couldn't remember happening in earlier books.  Lots of characters that I wish I could remember why they were so damn important.  I had trouble keeping all the kings and captain's of the guard from being mixed up.

Favorite characters: Androl, Mat, Min, Tam, and Talmanes.  Special mention for Rodel Ituralde.  Always been a fan of Gaul. 

Least favorite: Gawyn and Elayne were the two I hated reading about the most.  I've never liked Faile either.

Let-downs:  Logain.  I feel he acted out of character this book.
Rand's last battle with the Dark One seemed cliche.
Not enough Narishima.  Or Ashaman in general. 
I am of the believe that Mat didn't do much during the last battle.  His tactics didn't win the day as much as the actions of individuals that he wouldn't have taken into account.  I think Mat was awesome, but I wish his tactics seemed more effective, other than people saying that they were.

Also would be nice to know if certain characters survived the series.  Juilan, for example, was a secondary character for several books, and he got one excerpt and then was never mentioned again.  Also, Vanin and Harlan (or whoever Faile suspected).  Did they die a few moments after we last see them?  

Also, no reaction from Egwene's parents at all.  I don't know if they were mentioned.  What about Mat's sisters that could channel?  Were they in Mayene the entire book?

Apparently there's an Encyclopedia Wheel of Time coming out that will answer a lot of these questions, and I guess I'll just have to pick that up.


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## perman07 (Jan 24, 2013)

^Btw, I think I remember Loial saying he didn't have a talent when it came to noticing ta'varen, he just said something like he could feel the "pattern forming" when he was listening to Rand, Perrin and Mat's stories. Meaning it wasn't like Siuan's ta'varen spotting talent, but more analytical and philosophical.


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## Ruby Moon (Jan 26, 2013)

Curse my treacherous heart, I had to continue reading the last book of the _Wheel of Time_. 


*Spoiler*: _A Memory of Light_ 



Well, damn. Mat is made General of the forces of the Light, and now he's trying outgambit Demandred. Maybe he won't have to for long, since Gawyn slunk off on his own. 

Perrin...did he finally learn how to shift out of the wolf dream and back into the real world? I hope Faile manages to lead her party out of the Blight. Mat needs the Horn of Valere. 

Rand is finally facing off with the Dark One. It surprises me that Alanna is still alive, but how the heck did she get there?


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## Random Stranger (Jan 27, 2013)

Somewhere in the beginning of the book, Rand + fatman angreal held his own (even had the upperhand) against at least three dozen dreadlords and then he even held off agianst a full circle(72 channellers) led by either Taim or Demandred...rand even thought he could beat them...which brings me to my question....weren't you supposed to be screwed when going up against even only a weak circle (13 female channellers) no matter how strong you were in the One Power?...and was lews therin always this strong? or is it just that this new rand+ltt hybrid? if it is the former, how in the hell did Demandred think he could beat him especially since he intended to fight rand without a s'angreal or circle...

Speaking of Demandred, he turned out to be a pretty good antagonist...better than Moridin, in this last book at least...

Also was I the only who found Egwene's flame of tar valon technique to be....? ... I can't think of the right word so  or maybe  (?) will have to do...the only good thing about it was that it brought about her death.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 27, 2013)

I finally obtained a copy of this book (I chose to rent it from my town's library rather than purchasing it, as I am not certain that I shall read the series a second time), and I have begun to read it. I shall post my thoughts about the book as I read it, and I do ask that any users here who have already finished the book not spoil any of it for me, as I wish to enjoy this final volume of this epic series as thoroughly as I can.


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## Ruby Moon (Jan 27, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I finally obtained a copy of this book (I chose to rent it from my town's library rather than purchasing it, as I am not certain that I shall read the series a second time), and I have begun to read it. I shall post my thoughts about the book as I read it, and I do ask that any users here who have already finished the book not spoil any of it for me, as I wish to enjoy this final volume of this epic series as thoroughly as I can.



Rereading is something everyone one of us does. Especially for a book such as this. Once I get my copy at the library, I'll be reading it a second time.


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## martryn (Jan 28, 2013)

Speak for yourself.  I'm not rereading this book for years, if ever.  Lord of the Rings, this is not.  I can't call the series a classic, as I don't know if it'll live up to the test of time.  I think it's too large, with too many volumes to, stand-up to the test of time.

Besides, since finishing this book, I've been in a reading haze, and have almost finished two other books, and have been reading a third, with a fourth novel waiting for when I get some time.


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## Cyphon (Jan 28, 2013)

Martyn is right. This series is *not* LotR.....Its about 100 times better than that. So please never compare the 2


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## perman07 (Jan 28, 2013)

^Agreed, Lord of the rings isn't anywhere near as good.


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## martryn (Jan 28, 2013)

Wow, you guys are delusional.  

This is like comparing Citizen Kane with the Harry Potter franchise.

Lord of the Rings has had a significant cultural impact.  At the time of it's writing, fantasy of that scope hadn't ever been conceived.  There are college classes on Lord of the Rings, and people can actually speak Tolkien elvish.  

Wheel of Time, while a solid series, is burdened by being too long and feels unpolished.  Too many divergent story lines and too many minor characters.  Seriously, in that last book, it would have been better if Sanderson referred to "generic Aes Sedai of such-and-such ajah" than saying Yukiri.  Same with the Wise Ones.  I eventually tried to remember them based on if they fell into the category _Old as Shit_ or _Ageless Face_.  The series could have been cut in half and been twice as effective.

And it also doesn't do anything new.  It does what it does well, most of the time, but I'd categorize 90% of the content as mediocre, and 10% as fantastic, where other series you might get 100% good.  As in other series are better than Wheel of Time most of the time, but Wheel of Time has a few moments that will forever stand out.  I remember every book after the fourth one based on what big thing happens at the end, as the content in the middle largely doesn't effect the plot of the overarching story line.

But it doesn't revolutionize fantasy, beyond encouraging a disturbing trend of more books = more money.  Farmboy = chosen one must fight Satan / Evil / World-Ending-Badass isn't original.  Primitive culture rediscovering ancient magics / technology after world-ending cataclysm isn't new.  Hell, the Aes Sedai and the Aiel could almost have come straight from Frank Herbert, and that's not even the same genre.

I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but someone has to.  I want to talk about Wheel of Time, not suck it's cock.  When I started the series 12 years ago, I hadn't realized that there were already 8 books out.  And if I had known, I would have given considerable thought before picking the series up.  And if I had known there was going to be 13 books, I wouldn't have bothered.  I know a lot of people who won't read the series or who gave up around book 7 or 8 because of the length.  That's not a good thing.

And don't get me started in the juvenile way that Robert Jordan handles romance between characters.  It's weird, but Thom and Moiraine might have been the most believable romance in the series.

I'm a big Wheel of Time fan, but I'd be kidding myself if I put it in my top 5 favorite fantasy series of all time.  If I had to judge by chapters several Wheel of Time chapters might make it in my top 10, but for every fantastic chapter, there's a half dozen mediocre ones, a few decent ones, and a few absolutely ponderous ones.

And while Tolkien has already survived the test of time, and will go down in history as a classic series that invented modern fantasy, as much an establishment or tradition as a story, Wheel of Time will likely not prove the same.  It'll be less like Citizen Kane or Casablanca, and more like the old Planet of the Apes series.  Sure, 40 years from now there will be fans of the series, but they'll be eccentrics.


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## Cyphon (Jan 28, 2013)

martryn said:


> Lord of the Rings has had a significant cultural impact.  At the time of it's writing, fantasy of that scope hadn't ever been conceived.  There are college classes on Lord of the Rings, and people can actually speak Tolkien elvish.



Having a cultural impact =/= good, nor do people being nerdy enough to learn a fake language. 



> Wheel of Time, while a solid series, is burdened by being too long and feels unpolished.



This is true but it is still better than LotR. LotR while sure was terribly boring and uninteresting whereas Jordan managed to entertain at least somewhat through like 12 books and many more pages. Tolkein couldn't even entertain through 1. 

I believe I said it before but truth be told it is impossible to compare this series to a series as short as LotR. They are 2 different weight classes. The only semi equivalent thing you could do is compare similar amounts of books and the first 3-4 WoT books blow LotR out of the water. 



> But it doesn't revolutionize fantasy



And it doesn't have to or need to, to still be a great series. Do things deserve points for being original? Sure, but that isn't the most important thing. Original does not necessarily equal good either. 



> I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but someone has to.  I want to talk about Wheel of Time, not suck it's cock.



Honestly, I don't view you that way. You simply have a differing opinion and that is fine. However, I feel some of your points are very misguided or hardly even relevant. Such as people speaking a fake language. 



> I know a lot of people who won't read the series or who gave up around book 7 or 8 because of the length.  That's not a good thing.



And for all of those you know who won't read it, there are hundreds or thousands who have read it and loved it and that _is_ a good thing. However, appeal to popularity isn't really a great argument either so I want to try to avoid that. 



> And while Tolkien has already survived the test of time, and will go down in history as a classic series that invented modern fantasy, as much an establishment or tradition as a story, Wheel of Time will likely not prove the same.



I disagree on this as well. Tolkiens only real claim to fame is just mainly being a first, which is all well and good, but ultimately fades out of significance as much better things arise. The same thing happens and sports and many other things. The people who came first are all considered "legends" but if you unbiasedly compare them to things from today they just can't stack up. 

So yes, Tolkein started it all and deserves a lot of credit for that. But Jordan (and many others) took that ball and ran with it way better than Tolkein ever did. And to be completely fair to Tolkein he didn't have the starting point and sources the newer people did as he was doing it, so he shouldn't even be expected to compare. It isn't fair to him IMO.


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## martryn (Jan 28, 2013)

If you don't want to measure the series' worth through cultural impact, and you don't want to do it through raw popularity, I don't know what I can say.  

Some people will fully enjoy a movie like _No Country for Old Men_, but other people have to go and watch _Transformers_.  

The only major complaint I have about the Wheel of Time is it's length, which hurts it.  For the vast majority of people, the length of the series is a detriment.  It's fully 8.5 times longer than the Lord of the Rings based on word count.  What Tolkien did in 3 books (tell an epic story with an ensemble cast from several points of view in a well-developed fantasy world), Jordan had to use 13.  Other than the length, Wheel of Time is a solid fantasy series.  Robert Jordan played it safe, and he played it well.  

Comparing him to Tolkien is unfair to Jordan, as Tolkien played it better.  His series was entirely original, and much better developed, in a more concise package.  The only thing that Jordan does better than Tolkien is humor, cheap fight sequences, and raw book length.

If you compare Wheel of Time with series of similar length, it is still middle of the road.  Solid without being excellent.  It can't compete with the originality or characterization of Thomas Covenant, or the mystery and intrigue of the Malazan novels.  It does have more epic moments, but again, I can't look at the series and only judge it based on the one or two moments in every book where I'm blowing a load in my pants, I also have to consider the chapters where I can barely stay awake to finish, and as I mentioned, there are more of those in the series than the former.

Your arguments on originality also hold no weight.  It's hard to explain, but it's sorta like really enjoying the Arby's Roast Beef Sandwich.  You've always eaten them and you love them.  They're fucking delicious.  But you never eat at Arby's and order a Roast Beef Sandwich, take a bite, and then say, "Damn, that's the best meal I've ever had."  

If it doesn't push any boundaries or test new waters, then it won't, ultimately, stand out from the crowd (except for raw length).  Now that the series is finished, new readers will look at 13 books and find the prospect daunting.  Without prodding from their friends and family who are currently reading the series, they'll pass it up.  It's a solid series that will soon be forgotten.

Why?  Because I tried to explain the series to my wife, who is a fan of the fantasy genre.  She remembers my description of Thomas Covenant, as I only needed a couple brief sentences to describe the series to her.  With Wheel of Time, any brief description sounds incredibly generic.

Pulled straight from Wiki:
"Thomas Covenant, an embittered and cynical writer, afflicted with leprosy and shunned by society, is fated to become the heroic savior of The Land, an alternate world."

Try to write a one or two sentence overview for the Wheel of Time, as if you were describing it to someone who might be interested in the series, with a)using the words "epic" or "fantasy" or something similar, or b)making it sound like a Grimm fairy tale.

It's hard to do because despite how well written it is or how entertaining it can be, the plot itself is very generic, and with a cursory glance at the series, nothing really sticks out about it to set it apart from the hundreds of other cheap paperback fantasy novels lining bookstore shelves.


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## Cyphon (Jan 28, 2013)

martryn said:


> Comparing him to Tolkien is unfair to Jordan, as Tolkien played it better.  His series was entirely original, and much better developed, in a more concise package.  The only thing that Jordan does better than Tolkien is humor, cheap fight sequences, and raw book length.



Completely disagree minus the "original" point. Tolkien didn't handle his story that well at all. Thinking back on my experience reading it hardly anything actually happened in the story and his attempts at depth and world building were pretty weak. There were many things I remember reading that had no reference point or any significance to the story at all. What it was supposed to mean to the reader I have no idea. Jordan's characters and magic system are all far more interesting. 

Again, the only thing I can give Tolkein is being original. 

You and I both agree that length became bad for WoT, but if you compare the first 3 or 4 books to Tolkein, WoT is easily the superior of the 2. And obviously we will never know but I personally have no doubts that given that Tolkein couldn't even be entertaining in 3 or 4 books he would have failed miserably attempting a length of story Jordan wrote. While Jordan wasn't perfect I would say he handled it quite well.



> If you compare Wheel of Time with series of similar length, it is still middle of the road.  Solid without being excellent.  It can't compete with the originality or characterization of Thomas Covenant, or the mystery and intrigue of the Malazan novels.



I can't speak on the former but the latter doesn't come close to WoT either. Malazan suffers from the same thing I said about LotR and that is information that has no relevance to the reader. There is so much to take in and a good majority of it isn't even explained and if it is it isn't within a reasonable timeframe for you to remember the significance of it. 

That isn't even accounting for the way the books constantly add new characters or completely leave out the entire casts of other books. And yes, WoT had tons of characters but at least we were given a lot of consistent characters. IIRC Malazan is one whole cast in book 1, a completely new cast in book 2, back to the cast from book 1 in book 3 and something similar in 4 and then book 5 is like a whole new world. 

It also suffers from overly complicated and/or descriptive language that doesn't really add anything to the story. The one good thing to say about Malazan is that it did have some cool characters and cool moments but outside of that I would say it is in the bottom 2 or 3 of series I have read. Maybe even the worst. 



> Your arguments on originality also hold no weight.  It's hard to explain, but it's sorta like really enjoying the Arby's Roast Beef Sandwich.  You've always eaten them and you love them.  They're fucking delicious.  But you never eat at Arby's and order a Roast Beef Sandwich, take a bite, and then say, "Damn, that's the best meal I've ever had."



Well that doesn't quite work because you went from a specific sandwich to talking about whole meals which could include anything. In this case we are talking about 2 different roast beef sandwiches. Tolkein may have invented or discovered the roast beef sandwich but it was just meat and bread. New authors take that same sandwich and spice it up and make it a much more satisfying food. Jordan would be one of those. Of course, Jordan did overfeed us. 



> If it doesn't push any boundaries or test new waters, then it won't, ultimately, stand out from the crowd (except for raw length).  Now that the series is finished, new readers will look at 13 books and find the prospect daunting.



I guess it depends on the reader. As for myself, I always look for longer series because I want something lasting. I would want more HP if I could get it and hell, I would read more books in the WoT world if Jordan were alive and writing them.  The same could be said for some other series I enjoy as well.



> It's hard to do because despite how well written it is or how entertaining it can be, the plot itself is very generic, and with a cursory glance at the series, nothing really sticks out about it to set it apart from the hundreds of other cheap paperback fantasy novels lining bookstore shelves.



I actually think it is harder to explain it simply because there is too much information to try and fit into a 1 or 2 word description. Which IMO, is a good thing. And I still am not sure why you put so much weight on originality over actual quality.

To go back to the sandwich analogy. The first guy to ever make a shit sandwich would be considered pretty original but nobody wants to eat a shit sandwich just because it is a new idea. 

I will put it like this and I think you will agree.

Original done well > generic done well.

Original done bad > generic done bad.

generic done well > original done bad.

IMO WoT vs LotR falls into that third one. That part you may disagree with.


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## martryn (Jan 28, 2013)

You're no longer entitled to an opinion.  I can't say anything more because it'd get me banned, but I want to.  Use your imagination.  I'm now going to neg rep you and ignore you.  I'd go into reasons, but... well...


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 28, 2013)

Once my father finishes the series, I'll try reading the last three as one.


martryn said:


> And if I had known there was going to be 13 books, I wouldn't have bothered.


 There are fourteen books. Fifteen if you count the prequel.


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## Damaris (Jan 28, 2013)

martryn said:


> Pulled straight from Wiki:
> "Thomas Covenant, an embittered and cynical writer, afflicted with leprosy and shunned by society, is fated to become the heroic savior of The Land, an alternate world."



i'm curious as to why you hold this up as a an example of a summary that isn't incredibly generic, tbh.


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## perman07 (Jan 28, 2013)

Wow, never been negged solely for stating which piece of fiction I prefer out of 2, you seem kind of petty martryn.

My take is this, martryn places them in historical context while showing how LotR is more original, which I can't argue with. However, I think that is as irrelevant for LotR as it is for for instance Dragon Ball. A piece of fiction read on it's own has an entertainment value independent of what came before it, though the audience demands at the time of release is of course relevant. If something is more original, and something is more derivative, then for a person who hasn't read fiction in a chronological order there won't necessarily be anything more original about the work that was actually more original (in it's time).

Which is why for instance Dragon Ball, while awesome, seems more cliche than todays shonen since todays works feature more sophisticated writing conventions. And LotR similarly feels more cliche as well, there is little mystery (in terms of who did what), little individual agency (since characters tend to be a simple mashup of race/occupation/good-evil with little shade of grey), and the story overall feels more like a fairy tale written for younger people.

I honestly don't care that LotR was more original in it's time, from todays perspective it appears dated.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 28, 2013)

"Rand Al'thor, a shepherd from the Two Rivers, is seized from his quiet life and thrust into a growing web of political intrigue, war, and raw chaos.  The choices he makes and the lives he affects may save the world -- or damn it!"

Not to hard.  Mostly spoiler free even for the first book and applies even to the end.


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## Naisutime (Jan 28, 2013)

Random Stranger said:


> Somewhere in the beginning of the book, Rand + fatman angreal held his own (even had the upperhand) against at least three dozen dreadlords and then he even held off agianst a full circle(72 channellers) led by either Taim or Demandred...rand even thought he could beat them...which brings me to my question....weren't you supposed to be screwed when going up against even only a weak circle (13 female channellers) no matter how strong you were in the One Power?...and was lews therin always this strong? or is it just that this new rand+ltt hybrid? if it is the former, how in the hell did Demandred think he could beat him especially since he intended to fight rand without a s'angreal or circle...



Don't get this either, the "laws" of the One Power has been pretty consistent since The Shadow Rising and almost absolute since Lord of Chaos. 

Since Maradon all of that seem to have been thrown out the window...Several Asha'man can't blow up a small city wall without working together and it leaves them drained, Rand has as much (or more) power than all the Aes Sedai&Asha'man at Algarins manor combined and can resist a full circle of thirteen...

Zen Rand is frankly pretty boring. I thought it was pretty cool in my first read through, especially the part where he manipulated Eggy in ToM. However every re-read after the first just make it worse. I liked the Rand from TFoH and up to GoS far more.


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## martryn (Jan 28, 2013)

> There are fourteen books. Fifteen if you count the prequel.



Case in point.  I don't really count New Spring, though.  It's just the size of a normal paperback.


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## Shivers (Jan 28, 2013)

> If you don't want to measure the series' worth through cultural impact, and you don't want to do it through raw popularity, I don't know what I can say.



Pfft.

Here's an idea, try measuring its worth through substantive points about its quality.


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## Cyphon (Jan 28, 2013)

martryn said:


> You're no longer entitled to an opinion.  I can't say anything more because it'd get me banned, but I want to.  Use your imagination.  I'm now going to neg rep you and ignore you.  I'd go into reasons, but... well...



Well, if you would like to continue you can PM me. That way you won't have the risk of being banned. Though I will tell you now, if you can't humble yourself a bit and keep it respectful, I will not respond to you. Up to this point I feel you have been respectful and can't see why you would change that while discussing opinions on fairy tales.

I understand this is NF, but I still expect a certain level of maturity out of people who want to discuss things with me.


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## martryn (Jan 28, 2013)

> Here's an idea, try measuring its worth through substantive points about its quality.



Do we really want to do that when we're talking about a comparison between the writing of Tolkien with that of Jordan?  A war veteran with a background in physics compared to an Oxford professor of Language?  

Let's play a game.  Which author uses the following phrase half a dozen times a book:
"She crossed her arms under her breasts"

I guess if your editor is your wife you're bound to make mistakes that no one will call you out on.

People talk about the pacing of Lord of the Rings or how dull they can be in parts, but consider the chapters in Wheel of Time everyone is quick to ignore:

Elayne and her political maneuvering in Caemlyn that serves no purpose to the plot of the series, doesn't advance any story lines we care about, or further develop any characters worth developing.

Any chapter where Rand, Mat, or Perrin walked amongst their troops and we get to hear the boring internalization of their thoughts, and their personalities that radically changed in an attempt to show some sort of character development, but the only actual advance in the story were them saying hi to characters you couldn't even call tertiary as they made their rounds.

Any chapter dealing with the White Tower after it's split, but especially the ones focusing on the inane manipulation of the sitters, none of which really stick out as entirely original characters.  90% of the Aes Sedai in these books could be summed up with two words: nationality and ajah.  It's impossible to tell them apart otherwise, as there are well over 100 named Aes Sedai in the series, and they largely all act the same.  This point could also be made with all the Wise One specific chapters, or the couple of chapters where we're forced to try and tell the difference between all the Sea Folk characters, or damane.  And then the Kinswoman.  A task made many powers more difficult when they start intermixing.  I mean, if they stayed in one place, you'd be able to remember that it's that one Aes Sedai from wherever, but they travel in the books as well.  And you might get a PoV in a prologue from an Aes Sedai in one book, and then have to wait two books before the name is mentioned again, with little reference to the earlier mention, but we're supposed to remember them anyways.  So on top of these chapters being dull, and not being about the actual protagonists of the series, they're complicated as well.

The prologues that are three times longer than a long chapter in the series.  Sometimes the prologue would account to almost 10% of the entire novel, yet none of the events that take place there are incredibly important or necessary.  Cut the prologues in half and you could write the series one book shorter, if not two.  They're supposed to give us an insight on the day-to-day events taking place away from the main PoVs, but with books with over 30 PoVs, is that really necessary?  Are you going to tell me that some of these prologues weren't overly long and absolutely dull?

Fully 25% of the series, if not more, is guilty of one of the above, and is antagonizing to read.  And yet you guys can complain about Tolkien's pacing and how unimportant things happen that are no consequence to the plot.  That's the very definition of most of the Wheel of Time, which is why a rather simple story took 14 (or 15) books to write.  Maybe the dull parts of Wheel of Time are more easily excusable as Jordan's pacing is so erratic you never know when something important might crop up, while Tolkien had a very deliberate pacing so you knew when to expect things to happen. 

When I think of quality of writing, I look no further than Thom's last PoV in the book.  This man is supposed to be a master wordsmith.  A bard of the highest caliber.  I can understand Jordan, and Sanderson, using language appropriate to their audience for most of the series.  I'm not expecting to be enthralled at their use of vocabulary the same way I am when I read Lovecraft.  But I was expecting more from Thom.  It was painful to read, like bad fan fiction.  And he comes up with _exquisite?_  Really?  Not resplendent.  Not ethereal.  Not fastidious.  Exquisite?  We were not looking into the thoughts of a master poet or lyricist.  I felt we were looking at the thoughts of a 17 year old hipster writing a shitty rock anthem for his garage band.  It seemed so uncharacteristic of Thom, that I actually thought he was a fake.  Sure, probably Sanderson and not Jordan, but it all contributes to the series as a whole.


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## Cyphon (Jan 28, 2013)

martryn said:


> People talk about the pacing of Lord of the Rings or how dull they can be in parts, but consider the chapters in Wheel of Time everyone is quick to ignore:



You seem to be ignoring length here. Yes, WoT was boring at times but that was throughout a 15 book series. LotR was boring from book 1 through book 3. There weren't many "epic" moments or memorable events. I can't even imagine how much you would have to trudge through the series had it continued much further beyond that. 

Nobody ignores that there were boring moments in WoT. Hell, I always see complaints about Elayne and others. However, if we are comparing 2 series you have to complain in context so to speak. Being boring over 15 books is a lot more forgivable than being boring in all 3 of your only 3. 



> 90% of the Aes Sedai in these books could be summed up with two words: nationality and ajah.  It's impossible to tell them apart otherwise, as there are well over 100 named Aes Sedai in the series, and they largely all act the same.



This is bound to happen in any series with so many characters. Obviously some will share traits and some will even share a lot of traits. It is unavoidable. Especially considering the fact that there is no way around it. There are only so many different things people can be. That is true of real life as well as fiction. 

Now add on to that these are women who are basically all programmed by the tower and (for the most part) are all driven in the same direction for hundreds of years and it would be unreasonable to expect them not to be very similar.

Again, I agree that POV's could be cut out and that there is fluff, but that is understandable in such a large series. And even with all of that it still managed to be quite engaging. But some of what you are pointing out is a bit ridiculous.  

The prologues that are three times longer than a long chapter in the series.  Sometimes the prologue would account to almost 10% of the entire novel, yet none of the events that take place there are incredibly important or necessary.  Cut the prologues in half and you could write the series one book shorter, if not two.  They're supposed to give us an insight on the day-to-day events taking place away from the main PoVs, but with books with over 30 PoVs, is that really necessary?  Are you going to tell me that some of these prologues weren't overly long and absolutely dull?



> Fully 25% of the series, if not more, is guilty of one of the above, and is antagonizing to read.  And yet you guys can complain about Tolkien's pacing and how unimportant things happen that are no consequence to the plot.



It all comes down to length. You continue to point out how long the series is and yet don't seem to account for that in the comparison. I am being 100% honest when I say I would find the idea of reading LotR again a more daunting task than rereading the WoT series. Why? Because there is simply very little memorable about LotR. If you asked me right now I couldn't tell you one thing I would be looking forward to reading again in those books. I literally can't think of one thing. Whereas with WoT, there are tons of things I would want to go over again and read through multiple times.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 28, 2013)




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## The Space Cowboy (Jan 29, 2013)

> Do we really want to do that when we're talking about a comparison between the writing of Tolkien with that of Jordan? A war veteran with a background in physics compared to an Oxford professor of Language?



LoTR is Tolkien's attempt at forging an honest to goodness myth, with some anti-industrialist themes attached.  Indeed there are a few genre similarities, but the Wheel of Time, just isn't as good overall.

The central mythic qualities of the Wheel of Time seems to be centered around gender equality.  Indeed, I always appreciated that Jordan had a central, mythic reason for his women being the overtly dominant types in that men were responsible for the Breaking and how it plays out into a largely matriarchal society.

Jordan often commits the sin of explaining too much, and so his background characters get a bit over-extended past the point where they serve the plot well.  

Or worse, they start to wrap it around themselves like a cloak (_Seriously, the rescue Faile arc was annoying.  Perrin is the Ta'averen, not Faile_).  RJ seems to like his characters far more than is healthy, like a Dungeon-Master who creates a setting, and likes it so much he can hardly stand to have people actually play in it for a campaign.

Take Min for example.  Great idea in concept.  A seer who can't channel, yet can see things about someone that come true sooner or later.  She's an amazing plot device, but there was little or no reason to bring her in as continuing love interest for Rand.  At least Meriadoc and Pippin end up relevant to the outcome of the War of the Ring.

RJ's answer to characters staying around far too long, is generally making them channelers.  Almost EVERY female protagonist from the beginning of the series ends up being a channeler to the point where you half expect Bela the Horse to become Aes Sedai.  There was no really good reason for this, aside from giving them some way to be useful to the plot beyond the opening.

Tolkien would have side characters, and background characters too such as Bombadil or Glorfindel--but he was FAR better at making them serve the plot and could put them away when he was done.


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## perman07 (Jan 29, 2013)

I personally agree with all the criticism that both the space cowboy and martryn brings about WoT, I just personally don't see how that makes LotR better. To me Lord of the rings is just a far less exciting series, the characters are more one-dimensional (flip-side of WoT supposedly spending too much time on characterization), there is less mystery in general, the mythology and magic feels more mythic and less "real", as if it's more of a fairy tale than a world with different rules.

Lord of the rings has it's place cause it really created the fantasy genre, not because it's actually as good as modern fantasy. Hell, I personally think even Harry Potter (the books, not the movies) is better than LotR.


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## martryn (Jan 29, 2013)

I don't care if you prefer WoT to LotR.  I just felt impelled to try to bring WoT down a bit when we had members saying that LotR wasn't any good.  LotR is good.  It is quality.  You might not like it, just like people don't like scotch and cigars, but don't say it isn't good because it is.

The stories are action packed.  In Fellowship, for example, you've got the build-up and backstory, and then they meet Aragorn and Weathertop, then the Council of Elrond.  Moria and some interesting stuff not in the movie about Lorien and their encounters there.  And finally the epic ending where Frodo leaves.  All the while we get a lot of hints of backstory and the mythos of the world.  This is all in less than 400 pages.  Half the size of most Wheel of Time books.

To say that the books aren't good because nothing happens is ignoring everything that happens in the books.  Consider that all three books combined are just slightly longer than the longest of the Wheel of Time books.  If you look at the entire story as a single book, and then claim that nothing happens...  Absolute bullshit.  

So it comes back to the question of why it isn't as good.  The world has a deeper mythos, the writing is better, there's just as much happening... 

The characters are too one-dimensional?  Again, nonsense.  You can't see the growth in the hobbits?  How Frodo and Sam gradually change over the course of the novels?  The inner struggle of Boromir, the tragic turmoil of Faramir, the slow friendship of Legolas and Gimli, and watching Strider develop into Aragorn.  I think you don't know much about one-dimensional characters. 

Then you argue that's it's too much fantasy?  It carries too much of a fantasy feel?  And that makes it bad fantasy?


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## Cyphon (Jan 29, 2013)

martryn said:


> The stories are action packed.





Now you are just attempting to troll. I would venture to say all 3 books of LotR combined have less action than the average WoT book. 



> All the while we get a lot of hints of backstory and the mythos of the world.



Yes, we get hints that mean very little to us and have no real context or relevance to draw from. It basically says "shit happened". I am not sure why on earth you bring that up like it is a positive thing. 



> To say that the books aren't good because nothing happens is ignoring everything that happens in the books.



You are grasping here Martryn. Yes, everything the characters do is something happening. They walked, they ate, they slept, they walked a lot more and ate a lot more and slept a lot more. So yeah, a lot happened. I guess what I should say is that very little of _interest_ happened. 

And as you continue to talk about length lets consider. How is it Tolkein was able to stuff as much fluff into 400 pages as Jordan did in 800?



> So it comes back to the question of why it isn't as good.  The world has a deeper mythos, the writing is better, there's just as much happening...



There is no deeper mythos. It touches on things we know nothing about and learn very little about that mean nothing to us. Whereas WoT talks about ages upon ages and actually gives us references to them and explains why they are significant and at times even takes us to those places. 

The "writing is better" is subjective. Unless you are talking spelling errors and things like that, it all comes down to style preference.


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## perman07 (Jan 29, 2013)

martryn said:


> I don't care if you prefer WoT to LotR.  I just felt impelled to try to bring WoT down a bit when we had members saying that LotR wasn't any good.  LotR is good.  It is quality.  You might not like it, just like people don't like scotch and cigars, but don't say it isn't good because it is.
> 
> The stories are action packed.  In Fellowship, for example, you've got the build-up and backstory, and then they meet Aragorn and Weathertop, then the Council of Elrond.  Moria and some interesting stuff not in the movie about Lorien and their encounters there.  And finally the epic ending where Frodo leaves.  All the while we get a lot of hints of backstory and the mythos of the world.  This is all in less than 400 pages.  Half the size of most Wheel of Time books.
> *
> To say that the books aren't good because nothing happens is ignoring everything that happens in the books.*


Straw man, never said nothing happens.



> Consider that all three books combined are just slightly longer than the longest of the Wheel of Time books.  *If you look at the entire story as a single book, and then claim that nothing happens...  Absolute bullshit.  *


Straw-manning again.


> The characters are too one-dimensional?  Again, nonsense.  You can't see the growth in the hobbits?  How Frodo and Sam gradually change over the course of the novels?  The inner struggle of Boromir, the tragic turmoil of Faramir, the slow friendship of Legolas and Gimli, and watching Strider develop into Aragorn.  I think you don't know much about one-dimensional characters.


Agree with those examples, but almost everyone else seems fit into their archetype of "hobbits are grounded", "elves love nature", "dwarves love jewels" and so forth.



> Then you argue that's it's too much fantasy?  It carries too much of a fantasy feel?  And that makes it bad fantasy?


Straw-manning yet again, I said it was too much like a fairy tail. You really should be more intellectually honest, you seem to be more  concerned with winning the argument  than honestly replying...

There is a distinction between fairy tales and fantasy. Fantasy, like science fiction, often feels very realistic, it's just that circumstances like magic or technology have been tweaked. In WoT, Jordan obviously tried to envision how a world realistically would have been if there was a particular system of magic present (a system he explained well), if there were mechanistic forces guiding fate (the Pattern), he envisioned how male channelers destroying the world would affect gender mechanics historically. All in all, it feels like an attempt at comprehensively describing how a world would be with different rules in place. LotR on the other hand rarely goes into specifics on how shit works. Magic works because it's magical, men do bad things because men are flawed, elves are less flawed so they can wear magical rings, and so on.

Both are obviously fantasy-like, but LotR is more fairy tale-like and less sophisticated on the mechanical side of how the supernatural actually works, and with regards to the historical aspects of the world (which Jordan also covered extensively).

You previously made a wise crack about how Jordan was just a physicist while Tolkien was an Oxford professor of language. Well, Jordan as a physicist has tried to create rules for a world from the bottom up much better than Tolkien has, and his characterization of the world has thus been much more immersive and realistic.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 29, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Page 160_ 



I am now at page 160 of the book, and am certainly enjoying it, thus far. At this moment, only a few significant events have occurred; the stages are now being set for the climactic action. It was very tragic to see that Caemlyn fell to the Trollocs, but as long as its people escaped and Elayne survives, the nation of Andor itself shall prevail. I definitely enjoyed Talmanes' perspective, as he was certainly a skilled warrior and most interesting character, and I do hope that he survives, despite his grievous wounds, as I would like to see more of him before the end of the story.

Androl and Pevara's plan to rescue Logain was exciting and risky, and I am now anxiously waiting to learn what fate befell them when they were discovered. Has Rand forgotten about the Black Tower? Why has he not checked its status recently?

The meeting of the Forsaken was also very ominous and dramatic; I see that Graendal is not out of the story yet, but she was likely killed and reincarnated, now that she is known as Hessalam and is hideously ugly. While I do believe that that was a harsh punishment by the Dark One, I do also find it to be very fitting for someone who previously valued their beauty as their greatest asset. That chapter also finally answered two questions that many readers had long been asking; first, Mazrim Taim is not actually Demandred, and that Taim is indeed a servant of the Dark One. The fact that he has been honored as a new Forsaken is indeed very ominous, as he must be very powerful and competent to receive such a great honor. I shall be awaiting with caution and suspense to see what happens with him next.

Finally, Rand's plan to make the rulers of all the nations sign an agreement to not attack each other is certainly very interesting, and I do not expect them to agree to it easily, if they agree at all. But agree they must, in my mind, if they are to stand against the Dark One and have a chance of winning _Tarmon Gai'don._ I cannot wait to see what happens next, and since I stopped reading in the middle of a chapter to post this message, I should immediately return to reading after I am finished typing here.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 29, 2013)

What about Padan Fain/Mordeth? It seems to me that he has not been mentioned in quite some time in this story, but he had an insane desire to kill Rand, comparable to Gollum's incessant zeal to regain the One Ring in _The Lord of the Rings,_ plus, he had unique powers that no other character in the series has, so I do hope that the authors have not forgotten about him.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 29, 2013)

They haven't. He is addressed in this book.


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## DocTerror (Jan 30, 2013)

After discussing the last book with a friend there was 2 things that we really wanted to see that we didn't.

*Spoiler*: __ 



First is Egwene and Elaida meeting. Egwene now is Amyrlin and has the whole tower backing her and Elaida as a damane who was probably broken and humbled. I think this would have made a great scene.

Second is I forget which book but when Nyneave was teaching the Sea folk they shielded her and she found a soft spot where she could almost get around. I was hoping something would have come from it and a perfect moment would have been in a final fight vs Moghedian.


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## perman07 (Jan 30, 2013)

DocTerror said:


> After discussing the last book with a friend there was 2 things that we really wanted to see that we didn't.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Agree with Elaida, it was such an obvious scene really that it's weird it wasn't included. Jordan may have wanted to reserve Elaida for the "Mat's wacky antics in Seanchan" book(s) RJ wanted to write (which won't happen now).

Though I personally think Moghedien had been resolved sufficiently. Nyneave beat her as a complete noob, she would crush her now.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 30, 2013)

Elrond Half-Elven said:


> They haven't. He is addressed in this book.



Good, I am very pleased to hear that, as he is definitely an interesting character.


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## The Space Cowboy (Jan 31, 2013)

Cyphon said:


> Agree with those examples, but almost everyone else seems fit into their archetype of "hobbits are grounded", "elves love nature", "dwarves love jewels" and so forth.



Tolkien pretty much created those archetypes.  



No deeper Mythos in LoTR?  *dies laughing*



> All in all, it feels like an attempt at comprehensively describing how a world would be with different rules in place. LotR on the other hand rarely goes into specifics on how shit works. Magic works because it's magical, men do bad things because men are flawed, elves are less flawed so they can wear magical rings, and so on.



The Elven Rings were safe to use because the Elves forged them without his influence, and hid them from Sauron before he could dominate them.  The whole point of the rings of power was to allow Sauron triumph through guile where force of arms had failed him.

There's quite a lot of lore Tolkien never explains in LoTR, but is detailed elsewhere, because explaining it would be superfluous to the story.  LoTR also describes a world with different rules in place, except those rules are not spelt out for you on paper because Tolkien likes to take the role of a historian or observer with limited information



> You previously made a wise crack about how Jordan was just a physicist while Tolkien was an Oxford professor of language. Well, Jordan as a physicist has tried to create rules for a world from the bottom up much better than Tolkien has, and his characterization of the world has thus been much more immersive and realistic.



I'm not sure Jordan's mechanistic realism is a strength, when the general point of a fantastic novel is to visit a world that operates on different rules.


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## Cyphon (Jan 31, 2013)

Just so you know SC I wasn't the one who typed that stuff.


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## perman07 (Jan 31, 2013)

The Space Cowboy said:


> Tolkien pretty much created those archetypes.
> 
> 
> 
> No deeper Mythos in LoTR?  *dies laughing*


Him creating the archetypes doesn't mean that he shouldn't have to go beyond them. It's a common mistake among both fantasy and science fiction works (because they are large-scale and plot-centered) that the members of races/nationalities/allegiances don't have much individuality beyond their group characteristics. Jordan himself was guilty of it with many characters who seemed hollow beyond their Aiel or Cairhienin characteristics. People in real life rarely conform precisely to their group stereotypes, and if a work of fiction is written optimally, they don't there either (though it's a hard thing to truly accomplish)

All I'm saying is, Tolkien was more guilty of it.

As for "no deeper mythos in LotR", I never said that, so you seem to straw-man as well.


> The Elven Rings were safe to use because the Elves forged them without his influence, and hid them from Sauron before he could dominate them.  The whole point of the rings of power was to allow Sauron triumph through guile where force of arms had failed him.
> 
> There's quite a lot of lore Tolkien never explains in LoTR, but is detailed elsewhere, because explaining it would be superfluous to the story.  LoTR also describes a world with different rules in place, except those rules are not spelt out for you on paper because Tolkien likes to take the role of a historian or observer with limited information


I never read anything beyond LotR and the Hobbit, so I can't really judge this I suppose. But you say here that Tolkien didn't add things that would be *superfluous*, which I guess is the central word here. Jordan's rules and history weren't superfluous, how the One Power worked served as plot points in battle, the history of the world that was included was mostly relevant to plot.

I guess the point here is, how shit works in reality is relevant, and the scientific and critical attitudes of people in the modern world aren't just a result of where we are, to a certain extent, people have always been like this. That's why the "it's magical" explanation seems hollow in stories if other people aren't any more curious, cause you know here in the real world, they would be.

So including this serves to suspend disbelief in a way, cause you don't feel like people act like they shouldn't.



> I'm not sure Jordan's mechanistic realism is a strength, when the general point of a fantastic novel is to visit a world that operates on different rules.


There's no set answer here, so I don't know why you talk about this like it's an objective question.

I certainly think it's a strength. Rarely has any fantastical work of fiction created such a well-documented system of magic as Wheel of time. It serves to better empathize with the magician if you sort of have an idea what they're doing.

To me, creating a cool magical system is one of the central things you have to do if you are creating a large work of fiction with something supernatural. You can see it in manga too that have moved beyond the chi of Dragon ball and have way more sophisticated systems of magic. When writing about the supernatural, this shit matters to a lot of the readers. Cause if the author can make magic do anything without restrictions, then you get shit like asspulls, deus ex machina, plot shields, pnj, pis and all those other things that describe plot writing characters/battles/events rather than characters/battles/events happening in a logical fashion to form a plot.


----------



## martryn (Jan 31, 2013)

> Rarely has any fantastical work of fiction created such a well-documented system of magic as Wheel of time.



The Sword of Truth novels do a better job with magic, I think.  Certainly more creative than the Wheel of Time.  But that series is absolute shit.  Just as an example.  Then you've got the two Mordant's Need books by Stephen R. Donaldson and their system of mirror / portal magic, which is incredibly original and really cool, but I've never met a single other person who has read those books.


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## perman07 (Jan 31, 2013)

Never read any of those, though looking to expand my horizon. Currently on the second Malazan book, though I think the series seems a bit heavy in the sense that there are constantly new people, new 1st person perspectives, it almost feels like I'm studying for school or something. Though I enjoyed the 1st book, I've kind of gotten stuck on the second book. Need to start it over again or something.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 31, 2013)

perman07 said:


> Never read any of those, though looking to expand my horizon. Currently on the second Malazan book, though I think the series seems a bit heavy in the sense that there are constantly new people, new 1st person perspectives, it almost feels like I'm studying for school or something. Though I enjoyed the 1st book, I've kind of gotten stuck on the second book. Need to start it over again or something.



I felt the same way. Malazan was more work than enjoyment.


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## Nae'blis (Jan 31, 2013)

I generally hate the plot with the hobbits/homolust, but Tolkien is not antiquated at this time even if he pretty much developed the genre. Love his world development and characters not named Sam/Frodo, characterizations and character interactions with everything else leave it one of the best books I have read. That is the one book I read every year since 1999. I like Jordan's novels but he is no where near as gifted a writer as Tolkien. Same with a few of the Goodkind books, enjoyable even if the writer is mere 
chuunin lvl. 

Anyway... I didn't necessarily like how the Black Tower situation was handled. Yes it was good that the Black Tower somewhat healed themselves from within, as Andol said that now they are their own men, but still. Why does Rand not say anything besides "something is wrong there", and why didn't Perrin mention the dreamspike to anyone? I just hate that everyone was doing there own thing. I hate how Androl was the leader of the Black Tower even though he was the weakest, but then at the end Logain (the strongest) is the leader and has a sa'angreal as powerful as Vora's as his personal scepter. 

Many more problems but enjoyed it.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 2, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Page 306_ 



So, the armies of the world shall be fighting a war on four fronts? That shall definitely be very intense and difficult, with many loses for humanity, and I expect there to be much emotional drama, as well.

I see that Mat is keeping himself distant from Rand, unlike Perrin, who is now closely accompanying him. I find that to be very unfortunate, as they are still best of friends, are the three main characters of this series, and Mat also is still linked to the _Horn of Valere,_ which shall almost certainly be needed for the final assault on _Shayol Ghul,_ so I am certain that he shall indeed rejoin Rand before the end of book, regardless of whether or not he wishes to do so.

So, Perrin has finally disabled the dreamspike that was blocking gateways at the Black Tower. It is unfortunate that he was too late to prevent Evin from being turned-that was a terribly tragic occurrence, indeed-but at least Androl and the others who had not yet been turned were able to finally drive Taim and his followers out. Reading that scene caused me to feel a sensation of immense satisfaction, very similar to when I read the chapter of Egwene defending the White Tower from the Seanchan in _The Gathering Storm;_ the other _Asha'man_ had constantly been taunting Androl for being weak in usage of the Power, with his only skill being the usage of gateways, but he proved to them how useful his ability was. I do hope that Taim's actions have not damaged the reputation of the Black Tower, since Rand established it as a haven for male channelers, yet Taim nearly turned it into exactly what Rand did not want it to be; a recruiting ground for the Dark One.

It was very interesting to see Lanfear, one of the most proud of all the Forsaken, broken and humbled so greatly, and I did feel some pity for her when Rand harshly turned away from her. It seems that her failure to convince Rand to help her then led her to seek assistance from Perrin. When she said that she desired vengeance against "the one responsible for [her] imprisonment," was she referring to Moridin, who holds her mindtrap, or to someone else?

This book is so very exciting, I can barely stop reading it to type these posts here, and I shall definitely feel a sense of sorrow when I finish it, so I wish to enjoy and savor it as much as I possibly can.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 2, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> I hate how Androl was the leader of the Black Tower even though he was the weakest,


[sp]Why should strength in the One Power determine rank? Sure, it's the way the White Tower does it, but Jordan has made sure to point how similar organizations determine rank differently. Androl seems older and wiser than Logain's other followers and Taim doesn't care to try turning him.[/sp]


> [sp]but then at the end Logain (the strongest) is the leader and has a sa'angreal as powerful as Vora's as his personal scepter.[/sp]


[sp]Demandred's scepter isn't recovered from Egwene's crystal.
Hopefully Nynaeve, or someone she trains, Heals Logain of his madness before it causes too much trouble.[/sp]


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## Nae'blis (Feb 2, 2013)

No, I meant to say I hate how Androl is relegated to henchman after showing that strength in the one power isn't that important. The Aes'sedai were shown that someone who is a leader is not necessarily the strongest in the one power, yet the Black Tower learns nothing. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Especially considering that Logain hasn't really been shown, in the books, to be a leader amongst them. He is just the strongest after the M'Hael and not a darkfriend so they decided on him.


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## Ishamael (Feb 2, 2013)

Well Androl only became leader after he proved himself capable. Given time I'm sure the BT will see that someones strength in the OP is not the end all be all to determining how effective someone as at being in a position of authority. The BT as originally intended by Rand was simply a weapon for TG so the strongest people leading given its purpose is expected. And at the time I think the "good guys" in the Tower needed someone strong to rally around. The darkfriends had Taim and if someone weak were anointed leader then it may seem to the undecided Ahsa'man that the forces of Light were weak in comparison to the Shadow. 

I'm pretty sure Logain's madness can't be healed. If I recall correctly then whatever the mental state of a male channeler at the time of the cleansing then that is how it would remain for them. And I think Rand stated that you can't heal the madness that they are suffering from even post cleansing.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 2, 2013)

Possibly it could be healed by whatever-Rand-did-to-Asmoden.

Possibly it is automatically healed by [spoilers=end of story].

Possibly there's nothing to heal, he just is who he is.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 3, 2013)

> I'm pretty sure Logain's madness can't be healed. If I recall correctly then whatever the mental state of a male channeler at the time of the cleansing then that is how it would remain for them. And I think Rand stated that you can't heal the madness that they are suffering from even post cleansing.



uh...

there was a whole scene where nynaeve healed an asha'man's madness post-cleansing?


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## Ishamael (Feb 3, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> uh...
> 
> there was a whole scene where nynaeve healed an asha'man's madness post-cleansing?


I totally forgot about that! That wasn't brought up at all in aMoL.


----------



## perman07 (Feb 3, 2013)

I personally wonder whether that scene was all Sanderson.. I believe earlier books said only the True power could heal madness, like what Ishamael did to Lews Therin.

It kind of felt like a retcon that Nyneave was somehow suddenly able to do it. Though it could play into Jordan's theme of how "primitives" were discovering new things, so I suppose that bit could have been Jordans too.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 3, 2013)

It was Jordan, had to be.  Because a little later she tries it on Rand and finds some "white shield" protecting him from the madness and Sanderson wouldn't have made a call like that without Jordan's direction.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't remember it ever being said that only the True Power could heal madness. I distinctly remember it being said that madness could not be healed. What Elan Morin did to Lews Therin isn't the same, he did say something to the effect of "it is a pity one of your Sisters is not here to heal you, I was never skilled in Healing, but even they could only give you a few lucid moments". Basically the exchange suggested to me that what Elan Morin did could have been done by another Aes'sedai, and that it was specifically _not_ doing what Nyneave did. The books themselves do not suggest that healing could be used before Nyneave did it, and indeed Rand who remembered being Lews Therin even said that healing madness has never been done before. 

So basically it didn't feel like a retcon when Nyneave healed the other Asha'man. It just added to my annoyance that these three/four girls are just inventing world changing and previously impossible weaves at whim.

I love how Egwene used some intense troll logic by saying the rules of tel'aran'rhiod are in anyway relevant in the waking world. 

Damandred has got jokes, I laughed so hard when he asked "are you Asmodean?".  the guy become Forsaken just so he could live forever playing his harp!





Ishamael said:


> The darkfriends had Taim and if someone weak were anointed leader then it may seem to the undecided Ahsa'man that the forces of Light were weak in comparison to the Shadow.


Okay that makes sense.



EvilMoogle said:


> Possibly it could be healed by whatever-Rand-did-to-Asmoden.


Rand didn't heal him, just severed the connection that protected Asmodean.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 3, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> Rand didn't heal him, just severed the connection that protected Asmodean.


I always interpreted it as Rand severing the connection between Asmodean and the Dark One.

Which I assume could be done to "unturn" someone that was turned by the 13x13 process, but that's somewhat speculative (and largely moot as no one but Rand has ever shown that ability).


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 3, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> The books themselves do not suggest that healing could be used before Nyneave did it, and indeed Rand who remembered being Lews Therin even said that healing madness has never been done before.


I think Semirhage and Moghedien or Graendal mention similar.


> So basically it didn't feel like a retcon when Nyneave healed the other Asha'man. It just added to my annoyance that these three/four girls are just inventing world changing and previously impossible weaves at whim.


Nynaeve's instances never really bothered me because they stemmed from a seeming Talent in Delving and some experimentation.


----------



## Ruby Moon (Feb 4, 2013)

I love the way the villains get their comeuppances in the end. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Moghedien and Graendal get some very fitting punishments. Getting leashed by one of the Seanchan and having one's own mind-control spell turned against you? They had it coming. Lanfear...you really should not have tried that on Perrin. Good thing that Perrin was able to kill Slayer. I'm glad he was able to find Faile.  

My heart skipped a beat when Fain seemingly killed Mat. I'm so glad he gave back that bastard what he deserved. So now, he's going to be a father. I'm so proud of him. 

And Rand...well, I wondered whether or not it would be like Harry Potter. Too bad everyone thinks he's dead...well, almost everyone. Elayne, Min and Aviendha know he's still alive, even Cadsuane. Oh ho, Cadsuane. Now you get to be the Amyrlin Seat, just as you deserve.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 4, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Page 390_ 



So, Rand was able to convince the Seanchan to join the Dragon's Peace? That was a remarkable accomplishment, indeed. I was displeased that Tuon insisted that the Seanchan be allowed to keep all _Damane_ whom they have captured, but perhaps, by the end of the series, people in Seanchan shall begin to realize that enslaving women who can channel is a cruel and heinous act. I did certainly enjoy the brief humor when Mat was being fitted with royal clothing, and his insistence upon wearing his trademark hat was definitely worthy of a laugh.

The sudden attack of the _Sharan_ upon the _Aes Sedai_ encampment was startling, but at least they escaped with only minimal casualties. It has been some time since I read the earlier books of the series, and the _wiki_ for this series does not yet have an article for the _Sharan_ people, so could someone refresh my memory: who are the _Sharan,_ and are they allied with the Dark One?

So, Rand has now begun his assault upon _Shayol Ghul;_ I am very certain that that shall be a most dramatic and dire occurrence indeed, but its occurrence is not even halfway through the book, so there must be much more to still occur, and Rand's assault shall definitely be described in great detail. I cannot wait to read more of that.


I have been wondering something: at the beginning of the story, Rand and Egwene were in love, but as they traveled, they fell out of love with each other. I do not have time to re-read the earlier books of this series, so could someone here simply tell me how they fell out of love with each other? And is it a coincidence that they eventually married two people who are siblings to each other (Elayne and Gawyn), or the will of the Great Wheel?


----------



## Drizzt (Feb 4, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



The Sharan were mention briefly through Shadow Rising to Path of Daggers books. Sharan are from the land of Shara. They are lands beyond the Aiel Waste. A bit of Sharan's society were mention such as the leaders, in which, the male and female rules absolute for 7 years before killed off and their surviving spouse marries before they rule for 7 years off before killed off and the cycle continues. 

The Sharan was not allied with the Dark One. They were allied with Demandred, under the guise of Bao the Wyld, who promised that if they supported him that he would save their people. If not for him, they would've stayed out of the Last Battle.




As for the second part of your question: Re: Rand and Egwene falling out of love. 

Rand learned that he was not meant to be with Egwene when Min told him that one of her viewing saw that 'she was not meant for him nor was she for him.' Rand struggled with the concept of not being married to Egwene since that was all assumed when he was in Emond's field. Once Rand's secret of channeling was learned by Egwene toward the end of the book. A new interaction took place - Egwene had to face that if she pursued a relationship with Rand - she would be pursuing a relationship that was doom to end in misery. Rand was backing away from the relationship because he did not want to her hurt and be involved with a man who would eventually go mad. Rand continue the progress by running away from Egwene and the Aes Sedai yet the pattern pushed him to be the Dragon. Rand ran off to Tear to accept whether or not he was really the Dragon which hit the nail on the head for relationship with Egwene. Not to mention during his journey, Ishamael was tormenting him in his dreams by having him kill his friends and family. In which, he almost killed Egwene. 

Egwene's cooling her relationship with Rand has been her realization that her belief of marriage was expectation of the village and not her own. This realization further deepen when she took the three ring test to become Accepted in the path of Aes Sedai. The ring showed her that she could not have him as a lover because it would destroy him. The ring showed him that she could not help him because that would destroy him. The ring showed that she could not let tar valon have him because it would destroy him. After passing those ring, that love was changed from possible crush/lover to something brotherly love. It continued as she began dedicating her path toward Aes Sedai. Then, there was big obstacle to doom relationship as lover - the fact that he was the Dragon Reborn and that he was fated to die insane. 

In the end, it was the realization that both of them loved each but never had been 'in love' with one another. And that Rand was fated to be tied to Elayne by the pattern will. Egwene had a choice really because it could've been either Gawyn or Galad. She was the woman in white at the end yet RJ decided to give Gawyn some pity it seemed.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 4, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I have been wondering something: at the beginning of the story, Rand and Egwene were in love, but as they traveled, they fell out of love with each other. I do not have time to re-read the earlier books of this series, so could someone here simply tell me how they fell out of love with each other?


The "breaking up" scene is from book 4 iirc.  Egwene and Rand kind of mutually realize that they're not as destined for one another as they thought.

The impression I always got was that when they were growing up in the Two Rivers they had kind of paired up under a small-town sort of "assumed marriage" (two kids of about the same age that get along together, well, it happens a lot when).

When they started traveling and seeing more of the world (not to mention when their idea of who they and each other were, Aes Sedai and Dragon respectively) their thoughts about their relationship changed.




DemonDragonJ said:


> And is it a coincidence that they eventually married two people who are siblings to each other (Elayne and Gawyn), or the will of the Great Wheel?



Pure coincidence as far as anything I can tell.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 5, 2013)

.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 5, 2013)

Thank you very much, Drizzt, EvilMoogle, and Elrond, for your answers.

I also have been wondering: Rand seeks to destroy the Dark One himself, and most people in this series seem to regard the Dark One as a sentient being, but what if the Dark One is less that and more a primal force of darkness and evil, or an ideal that is given substance by his followers? I have not yet reached the end of the book, so if responding to this ponderance shall spoil it, please do not do so.

Also, on that subject, was Mazrim Taim a follower of the Dark One from the very moment he appeared in the series, or even before that, or did he turn to the Shadow at some point after his introduction? Does anyone here know the answer to that question?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 5, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Also, on that subject, was Mazrim Taim a follower of the Dark One from the very moment he appeared in the series, or even before that, or did he turn to the Shadow at some point after his introduction? Does anyone here know the answer to that question?



This was answered in an interview, he was recruited after talking to a forsaken.  So that means that he was not a darkfriend until after the start of the series (after the Forsaken broke free).

One can assume he turned before he met Rand but I guess that's speculation.


----------



## Drizzt (Feb 5, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Thank you very much, Drizzt, EvilMoogle, and Elrond, for your answers.
> 
> I also have been wondering: Rand seeks to destroy the Dark One himself, and most people in this series seem to regard the Dark One as a sentient being, but what if the Dark One is less that and more a primal force of darkness and evil, or an ideal that is given substance by his followers? I have not yet reached the end of the book, so if responding to this ponderance shall spoil it, please do not do so.
> 
> Also, on that subject, was Mazrim Taim a follower of the Dark One from the very moment he appeared in the series, or even before that, or did he turn to the Shadow at some point after his introduction? Does anyone here know the answer to that question?



Well DDJ - for the first part - just keep reading. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



On the second part - he was recruited into the shadow. He was never turned to the shadow. But he was recruited.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 6, 2013)

Sul'dam are property as well, as a woman can not wake up one day and be one without answering to someone of the blood. It is not as if a farm wife is going to find an a'dam on the street and walk up to everyone she knows trying on the leash. The ceremonies that find marath'damane are also to find those girls, the difference being sul'dam are of an elevated status while damane are relegated to dangerous pets. They are all still da'covale answering to a member of the High Blood. The sul'dam from the series all belong to Tuon/Suroth/Turok (descendants of Luthair) or the Empire. I think the only sul'dam who is not da'covale is the der'sul'dam whatever her name was.


DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: _Page 444_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I remember reading so many times in the series about how Demandred could and would have been the Champion for the Light if not for Lews Therin, so his appearance as Bao the Wyld the "Dragon" for the Sharans was really powerful for me. It is heartbreaking that Elan Morin has more of a chance of being turned back to the Light than Demandred. If only Lews Therin wasn't so much of a jerk ass.

There have been more than a few times when Rand has seized saidar lol.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 7, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> There have been more than a few times when Rand has seized saidar lol.



When did that happen? When he linked with Nynaeve to cleanse _Saidin?_ If so, he surely learned that attempting to control _Saidar_ would be akin to attempting to fight the current of a river, which is what _Saidar_ is most often compared to.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 8, 2013)

No, I mean misprints in the series.


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## DocTerror (Feb 8, 2013)

Link removed

Interview with Sanderson where he talks about ending. He also talks about the future of series around 18:20 or lack there of.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 9, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Page 550_ 



I very much enjoyed the interaction between Egwene and Tuon, especially when Egwene verbally rebuked the Seanchan empress and denounced the practice of keeping _damane_ as evil and inhuman. I felt a feeling of immense satisfaction from seeing that scene, similar to the emotion I felt when Egwene verbally rebuked Elaida in _The Gathering Storm._ I also see that Tuon took an interest in Min's abilities, and named her as Truthspeaker, but her arrogance again astounds me; how can she actually believe that she can claim any person whom she desires for herself? I agree with Mat's assertion that Min can act as a diplomat and ambassador between the Seanchan and the mainlanders, but I am certain that Rand shall not tolerate Min remaining with the Seanchan for any significant duration, presuming that they all survive _Tarmon Gai'don,_ of course.

I was surprised, but also pleased, that the Seanchan are actually obeying Mat's order to refer to the _Aes Sedai_ by their proper title, rather than as _marath'damane._ Perhaps even the most minor of changes shall eventually have great results?

I had been awaiting the arrival of the _Asha'man_ upon the battlefield, and they did not disappoint me. Androl opening a colossal gateway and destroying the Trollocs with a massive flow of lava. Although Androl did not explicitly state from where he conjured the lava, is it safe to presume that he opened the other side of the gateway within Dragonmount, since he mentioned the mountain immediately before opening it?

I see that Hessalam (Graendal) has been secretly influencing the leaders of the armies to sabotage their strategies; that is indeed a fiendishly clever tactic, and I hope that the armies can recover from it.

So, I see that Rand is not using _Saidin_ to battle Moridin, wishing to save his power to fight the Dark One, but why has Moridin not used the One Power? Does he wish to fight Rand on equal terms? I do wonder what shall happen there. I am drawing closer to the end of the book, and I am feeling very tense and excited about it.





Nae'blis said:


> No, I mean misprints in the series.



So, are you saying that any instance of a man "embracing" the One Power are misprints?

Also, I recall that in a fantasy book series that I have read, there is a character named "Smoothhands" (whose first name begins with the letter C), but I cannot recall if that character is in this series or another series, so does anyone else know the character of whom I speak?



DocTerror said:


> Link removed
> 
> Interview with Sanderson where he talks about ending. He also talks about the future of series around 18:20 or lack there of.



After I finish the book, I shall watch that video, as I am certain that it shall be most interesting, indeed.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 9, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: _Page 550_
> 
> 
> 
> I also see that Tuon took an interest in Min's abilities, and named her as Truthspeaker, but her arrogance again astounds me; how can she actually believe that she can claim any person whom she desires for herself?


[sp]Tuon is the Empress. She does what she wants; none really have the ability to tell her otherwise.
Also Min is one of her subjects.[/sp]


> Also, I recall that in a fantasy book series that I have read, there is a character named "Smoothhands" (whose first name begins with the letter C), but I cannot recall if that character is in this series or another series, so does anyone else know the character of whom I speak?


Yeah,  is such a difficult tool.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 9, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: _Page 550_
> 
> 
> 
> Although Androl did not explicitly state from where he conjured the lava, is it safe to presume that he opened the other side of the gateway within Dragonmount, since he mentioned the mountain immediately before opening it?



*Spoiler*: _Answer, if you care_ 



This is explicitly stated later


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 9, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Page 655_ 



I see that the armies of the Light are making a final and desperate stand, and I do hope that it shall work. From where have all those Trollocs emerged? Were they breeding and amassing their forces for centuries, while the people of the world were unsuspecting?

I see that Rand is now finally fighting the Dark One himself, attempting to resist his power, and that the Dark One is attempting to make Rand submit. While I certainly have read stories and seen movies/television series where the main antagonist attempts to defeat the hero by showing them a vision of a nightmarish world before, it is almost always an effective plot device to make a villain seem powerful and present a great challenge to the hero. I do hope that Rand can resist the Dark One's power, and create a world where he does not exist.

I see that Demandred is now fighting directly, and is doing so very effectively, seeking out Rand to fight him in personal combat. I actually feel some level of sympathy for him, despite him being evil, since he dearly desires to fight Rand, yet cannot do so; that is not something that any person should suffer, in my opinion: having a person whom they regard as their rival/nemesis, and wishing to fight them, but never achieving that goal.

Also, was anyone displeased that Rand's fight against Moridin was not an epic fight with the One Power, but only a sword fight, and not even a great one, but a mundane one? I was very disappointed by that.


Also, I have been wondering: why did Nynaeve cut her hair short? Did she not prefer to have it long and braided? I cannot recall anything about that particular event.





Elrond Half-Elven said:


> [sp]Tuon is the Empress. She does what she wants; none really have the ability to tell her otherwise.
> Also Min is one of her subjects.[/sp]



*Spoiler*: __ 



Tuon may be the Empress of Seanchan, but she is not within her own territory, so her authority is considerably lessened there. And since when has Min ever been a subject of the Seanchan?





Elrond Half-Elven said:


> Yeah,  is such a difficult tool.



Yes, thank you very much; I have read many _Forgotten Realms_ books and am an avid player of _Dungeons & Dragons,_ but I could not recall Callarduran Smoothhands' name.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 9, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Tuon may be the Empress of Seanchan, but she is not within her own territory, so her authority is considerably lessened there. And since when has Min ever been a subject of the Seanchan?



*Spoiler*: __ 



From her perspective she _is_ within her territory, it's just the people of Randland have forgotten their oaths.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 9, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Page 670_ 



I see that Gawyn attempted to fight Demandred alone, but that quest ended very poorly for him. Demandred was definitely a major badass, which is not surprising, since he is one of only two members of the original thirteen Forsaken (the other being Moghedien) who have not been killed since their release in this age. I was very pelased to see that he was incredibly skilled at swordfighting, since too many channelers rely upon their power too heavily, and he defeated Gawyn with barely any use of the Power, at all. I do hope that Gawyn survives, but his situation does not appear to be very hopeful, currently.

So, Perrin has returned to the material word, and is being held against his will, because of his wounds. Why does he not simply re-enter _Tel'Aran'Rhiod_ the next time that he sleeps? Is he too weak to do so? I do hope that he eventually defeats Slayer, since the two of them have had a rivalry for quite some time, now.

I also liked how Androl's skill with gateways has proven to be so effective in battle, since he has such little power beyond that. It is great how he and Pevara have become so affectionate with each other, and I am can imagine them being amrried if they both survive the battle.





EvilMoogle said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> From her perspective she _is_ within her territory, it's just the people of Randland have forgotten their oaths.



*Spoiler*: __ 



In that case, I shall say that she is very arrogant, to consider the mainland her territory even when she has not conquered it, and when did its people ever swear allegiance to her? If their ancestors did, they should not be held to those oaths. If one of my ancestors swore an oath, I certainly would not be held by it in any way.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 9, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Also, I have been wondering: why did Nynaeve cut her hair short? Did she not prefer to have it long and braided? I cannot recall anything about that particular event.


The braid is burned off during her test.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Tuon may be the Empress of Seanchan, but she is not within her own territory, so her authority is considerably lessened there. And since when has Min ever been a subject of the Seanchan?


[sp]Min was in Tuon's presence and tent. Where would Tuon's authority be greater, short of the Crystal Throne?
In the eyes of the Seanchan, all those of Randland are their subjects.[/sp]


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 10, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Page 704_ 



Siuan died; that was so tragic, especially since it was so sudden and abrupt. She had been such an influential character in the series until that point, and now she is gone. I do hope that Bryne can survive her death, since many warders are said to go insane after their _Aes Sedai_ dies.





Elrond Half-Elven said:


> The braid is burned off during her test.



Are you referring to her test to become an _Aes Sedai?_ That happened a long time ago, early in the series, yet the chapters from her perspective seemed to imply that she had lost her braid recently.



Elrond Half-Elven said:


> [sp]Min was in Tuon's presence and tent. Where would Tuon's authority be greater, short of the Crystal Throne?
> In the eyes of the Seanchan, all those of Randland are their subjects.[/sp]



Perhaps that is true, but that does not change the fact that Tuon was physically outside of her home nation; that would be akin to a monarch or prime minister of another nation entering the United States and declaring that a citizen of that nation was now a citizen of their nation.


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## DocTerror (Feb 10, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Are you referring to her test to become an _Aes Sedai?_ That happened a long time ago, early in the series, yet the chapters from her perspective seemed to imply that she had lost her braid recently.



In Towers of midnight she took the test that all Aes Sedai take where she did 100 weaves. Thats when she lost it. 




> Perhaps that is true, but that does not change the fact that Tuon was physically outside of her home nation; that would be akin to a monarch or prime minister of another nation entering the United States and declaring that a citizen of that nation was now a citizen of their nation.



Tuon like all rulers are arrogant.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Perhaps that is true, but that does not change the fact that Tuon was physically outside of her home nation; that would be akin to a monarch or prime minister of another nation entering the United States and declaring that a citizen of that nation was now a citizen of their nation.



From Tuon's point of view it's more like if King George had entered the US in 1778.  From the US point of view they were free, if fighting a war for independence.  From England's point of view some upstart would-be leaders were rebelling against the rightful rule of England.

Tuon sees the lands as rightfully belonging to Hawking's empire.  When Hawking's line died out in the mainland the lands were inherited by the Seanchan Empire (and thus the Empress).  The fact that some "rulers" have laid claim to chunks of the land is meaningless (rather Tuon graciously will allow them to continue to rule as long as they swear the proper oaths however the land still belongs to Tuon along with all the people on it).


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 10, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> From Tuon's point of view it's more like if King George had entered the US in 1778.  From the US point of view they were free, if fighting a war for independence.  From England's point of view some upstart would-be leaders were rebelling against the rightful rule of England.
> 
> Tuon sees the lands as rightfully belonging to Hawking's empire.  When Hawking's line died out in the mainland the lands were inherited by the Seanchan Empire (and thus the Empress).  The fact that some "rulers" have laid claim to chunks of the land is meaningless (rather Tuon graciously will allow them to continue to rule as long as they swear the proper oaths however the land still belongs to Tuon along with all the people on it).



Are you saying that you actually believe that Tuon's claim over the lands on the main continent is legitimate and/or justified? How could you believe such a thing? That is akin to Queen Elizabeth II expecting obedience from the current citizens of the United States of America simply because their ancestors were subjects of the British Empire in centuries past; it does not make rational sense.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Are you saying that you actually believe that Tuon's claim over the lands on the main continent is legitimate and/or justified? How could you believe such a thing? That is akin to Queen Elizabeth II expecting obedience from the current citizens of the United States of America simply because their ancestors were subjects of the British Empire in centuries past; it does not make rational sense.



I'm saying  Tuon believes it, which is all that is relevant to her point of view.

From her point of view she owns the main continent and all the people on it are her subjects.  Some of them are rebellious subjects and some have forgotten they are her subjects but they're her subjects none-the-less.


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## martryn (Feb 10, 2013)

I like how this thread has become one member more or less giving a summary of everything he reads.  Maybe I'll make a thread and summarize books for people too.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 10, 2013)

Considering the activity this thread gets, I hope it continues.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 10, 2013)

martryn said:


> I like how this thread has become one member more or less giving a summary of everything he reads. Maybe I'll make a thread and summarize books for people too.



I am enjoying this book very thoroughly, Martryn, and I am so excited about it that I wish to post my thoughts about it as I read it to share my enjoyment with the others here. I would certainly appreciate having a detailed and proper conversation with other users about this series, but they simply are not posting at this moment, apart from Elrond and Evil Moogle. I do wish that you would not be so snarky about it, as well.

On that subject, I am now at page 750,
*Spoiler*: __ 



And Gawyn did indeed die; that is so horrible, as it leaves Egwene feeling alone and broken. I suppose that since this the final battle, there is no more safety for even major characters in this story, but at least Egwne is keeping herself strong and determined, saving her grief for after the battle is finished.

It also was tragic to see Bryne driven insane from Siuan's death, which makes me wish to ask: why is it that an _Aes Sedai_ can survive the death of her warder, but a warder typically cannot survive the death of their _Aes Sedai?_ That seems to be terribly unfair, to me.

So, now Galad has challenged Demandred? He did indeed give the Forsaken a better fight than did his brother, but he still lost, and badly, at that. At this rate, I dearly wish that Rand could somehow battle Demandred, not only because that would certainly be an and awesome epic fight, but also so that I would not longer need to continuously read passages where Demandred shouts for Rand to appear and fight him. Does Demandred not know that Rand is at Shayol Ghul, battling the Dark One Himself?


To introduce a new subject of conversation to this thread, what possibility is there for this series to be adapted into a television and/or film series? It is a very epic series, with a very well-developed world and numerous characters whom I believe are very realistic and well-written, and if _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is sufficiently popular and well-written to have a television series adapted from it, so is this series, in my opinion.


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 10, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> To introduce a new subject of conversation to this thread, what possibility is there for this series to be adapted into a television and/or film series? It is a very epic series, with a very well-developed world and numerous characters whom I believe are very realistic and well-written, and if _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is sufficiently popular and well-written to have a television series adapted from it, so is this series, in my opinion.



In my opinion?  No.  Not without major adaption.  It's just too huge.

Think of it this way, assume you cut things down to just Rand-centric critical items and fit two books in each season on TV (which would kill a lot of the spirit of the books IMO but...).  You'd still be looking at 7 seasons to finish the series.  That's a _long_ series.

If you tried to keep each of the major characters individual plots?  I'm not sure you could fit a lot of books into 1 season.  Anything past book 3 is problematic IMO, probably doable but you'd have to start cutting things out.

And while there's a lot of room to cut things out you'd have to be really careful and thinking ahead to make sure you don't skip something that becomes important 5 seasons later (which presents its own headache in that most TV audiences won't remember things that happened 5 seasons ago without prompting).


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 11, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I am now at page 750,[SP]why is it that an _Aes Sedai_ can survive the death of her warder, but a warder typically cannot survive the death of their _Aes Sedai_?[/sp]


[sp]Is it stated that one deals better with it than the other?
And if so, it may be because of their connection to the One Power. After the three Bond Rand and he and Elayne make a blaze in the sheets, Aviendha is able to block or limit the feelings through the bond, while Birgitte and Min don't seem able.[/sp]


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## Drizzt (Feb 11, 2013)

Elrond Half-Elven said:


> [sp]Is it stated that one deals better with it than the other?
> And if so, it may be because of their connection to the One Power. After the three Bond Rand and he and Elayne make a blaze in the sheets, Aviendha is able to block or limit the feelings through the bond, while Birgitte and Min don't seem able.[/sp]





*Spoiler*: __ 



I can't remember all the detail about the bonds but I do remember the general bits of it. 

An Aes Sedai bonds her warder using Spirit from Saidar - this creates a link between them akin to the circle except the warder is a non-channeller. You can imagine this is like bonding souls between the two participants. When an Aes Sedai's bond is destroyed because she is killed.. her warder goes in a blood rage due to traumatic effect it has on the soul. If the warder dies - then that link is snapped because the spirit was coming from only Aes Sedai only. This makes an Aes Sedai weepy and emotional for a period of time and cause her to not unable to use saidar. 

Second, the reason why Birgitte and Min weren't able to block some of the sensations were due to them being female and non-channelers. Aviendha was able to block some of it because she was a channeler. Likewise, Elayne is able to do same except for the bond between Birgitte and herself because they are both women. There was a passage that speculated because both of them were woman that the bond was different because the one power works better when it is applied to the opposite sex. 

For example, Nynaeve healing Logain's gentling and returning him to full power was because Saidar fully heals male. Likewise, she attempted to heal Leane and Suian - they were return to a fraction of their power. And Damer, an Asha'man, was able to fully heal the sister that were stilled at Dumai's Wells.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 11, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> In my opinion?  No.  Not without major adaption.  It's just too huge.
> 
> Think of it this way, assume you cut things down to just Rand-centric critical items and fit two books in each season on TV (which would kill a lot of the spirit of the books IMO but...).  You'd still be looking at 7 seasons to finish the series.  That's a _long_ series.
> 
> ...



That is very unfortunate, as I do believe that this series definitely would be very awesome as a television series. The scenario that you suggest is very similar to the film adaptations of the _Harry Potter_ series: the first several films were very faithful to the books and omitted very little material, but the later films omitted great amounts of material, including many very exciting subplots, which was very unfortunate, indeed.

I have read only slightly further in the book since my previous post, making it to page 766, and
*Spoiler*: __ 



I see that Logain is determined to fight Demandred, which should hopefully be an awesome fight. I noticed that he seems to desire power and authority, which surprises, as I did not expect that from him. Will he become a threat to the people if he survives _Tarmon Gai'don?_ I had previously thought that Logain would fight Taim, as they have each declared themselves to be the Dragon Reborn at different points in the past, but it now seems that Androl wishes to fight Taim, because of how Taim broke and turned some of Androl's closest friends. Androl shall be at a major disadvantage against Taim, because of his relative lack of skill other than gateways, but I am certain that he shall use his power creatively and effectively, plus, I am certain that Pevara shall assist him, as well.


There is also another thing about which I am wondering: several of the Forsaken have used the "True Power," power drawn directly from the Dark One himself, and I was expecting that that power would feel similar to the Dark One's taint on _Saidin,_ as both are derived from the Dark One's own essence, yet it is not described in the same manner. Why might that be the case?


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 12, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is very unfortunate, as I do believe that this series definitely would be very awesome as a television series. The scenario that you suggest is very similar to the film adaptations of the _Harry Potter_ series: the first several films were very faithful to the books and omitted very little material, but the later films omitted great amounts of material, including many very exciting subplots, which was very unfortunate, indeed.


Yeah, Book 1 you could easily fit into one season (probably a half-season proof-of-concept thing) without any real problem.  Maybe even in a ~2 hour movie if you squeeze.

Book 2 and 3 you could do faithful adaptions in a season easily enough.

Beyond book 3 you have too many different major plots IMO.  You'd have to start cutting things.

Book 4:
- Rand (and Mat) in the Waste
- Perrin saving the Two Rivers
- The White Tower breaking up (Min/other "minor" characters only ones present)
- Nynaeve/Elane hunting the Black Ajah

That's four pretty big plotlines.  You _might_ be able to fit them all into one season without losing anything major but it would be hard.  And the books only get longer from there.

(The logical executive decision would be to cut the White Tower stuff and have the characters hear about it later when they hear about it.  Which makes sense but further minimizes Min's role which would be complicated when the attempt is made to make Min into a prominent character later)

(Not to mention the fact that getting decent actors lined up would be a headache if you have to say "Min has two scenes in season 1, then she shows up again in season 3 briefly, she may-or-may-not have a decent role in season 4 depending on whether we cut that part but don't worry in season 6 she'll get some serious screen time!  Sign here Ms. Actress!")

(Perrin's absence in book 5 would be interesting for the same reason.  Lending the argument "well do we show some scenes of what's happening in the Two Rivers in season 5 so we can give the actor some screen time despite having time concerns for the season already?  Or do we tell the actor to take the year off, but please don't commit to other roles we need you back!)


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 12, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, that would be very complex indeed, I admit, but if the story writers for the television adaptation of _A Song of Ice and Fire_ (I do not like using its actual name, as that is merely the name of the first book and not the entire series), I am certain that the same could be done for this series, as well.

I have now finished _A Memory of Light!_ The ending of the book was simply fantastic! It was definitely an ending worthy of such an awesome and _exquisite_ ("epic" is used too often) series as this! I do not have time to post all my thoughts about it at this moment, so I shall do so later, and simply say at this moment that I am very glad that I read this series, as it was a most enjoyable and exciting experience!


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 20, 2013)

I have been too busy to post my thoughts of the ending of the series, but I do have another question.

When Moiraine entered the tent where all the leaders of the world nations has gathered, Perrin was worried that Nynaeve would be angry with her, yet she was not. Again, I cannot recall events from earlier books of the series, so why would Nynaeve have reason to be angry with Moiraine?


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 20, 2013)

^          Lan.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 21, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> ^          Lan.



Yes, I suspected that he was involved in some way, but could you please be more specific?


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## EvilMoogle (Feb 21, 2013)

I would venture a guess that it has to do with her arranging for Lan's bond to be passed to another Aes Sedai who was not Nynaeve and who helped "cure" lost warders through sleeping with them 

(Though I don't remember for sure if she ever learned that last bit)


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## DocTerror (Feb 21, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I have been too busy to post my thoughts of the ending of the series, but I do have another question.
> 
> When Moiraine entered the tent where all the leaders of the world nations has gathered, Perrin was worried that Nynaeve woud, be angry with her, yet she was not. Again, I cannot recall events from earlier books of the series, so why would Nynaeve have reason to be angry with Moiraine?



She hated Moiraine in the early books for running off with Rand and crew and getting them involved in everything. In fact the whole reason she went to the White Tower for training was so she could kick Moiraines ass for talking them out of the Two Rivers. She also resented her because she could order Lan around and send him away and there was nothing Nyneave could do about it.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 22, 2013)

EvilMoogle said:


> I would venture a guess that it has to do with her arranging for Lan's bond to be passed to another Aes Sedai who was not Nynaeve and who helped "cure" lost warders through sleeping with them



Yes, I can certainly understand that, since Lan and Nynaeve had fallen in love with each other, and Moiraine did not pass her bond with Lan to Nynaeve; I would also be angry about that, if I had been in such a situation.



DocTerror said:


> She hated Moiraine in the early books for running off with Rand and crew and getting them involved in everything. In fact the whole reason she went to the White Tower for training was so she could kick Moiraines ass for talking them out of the Two Rivers. She also resented her because she could order Lan around and send him away and there was nothing Nyneave could do about it.



However, I cannot understand why Nynaeve would be angry about that. Rand, Perrin, Mat, and Egwene were all adults when the left their village, so they were fully capable of making their own decisions regarding their actions, leaving Nynaeve with no authority to restrict them and her anger at Moiraine being unjustified, in my mind.


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## DocTerror (Feb 22, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> However, I cannot understand why Nynaeve would be angry about that. Rand, Perrin, Mat, and Egwene were all adults when the left their village, so they were fully capable of making their own decisions regarding their actions, leaving Nynaeve with no authority to restrict them and her anger at Moiraine being unjustified, in my mind.



They were young still and left without telling anyone and I'm pretty sure the whole village wanted to come after them but Nynaeve convinced them just to send her since she was the Wisdom. She just believed that an Aes Sedai had gotten them involved in things they had no business doing. Her hatred was unjustified but then again hatred almost always is.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 5, 2013)

If I have not already asked this, has anyone noticed that the Seanchan practice of saying "May she live forever" when dressing or referring to their empress is very similar to the Calormen practice of saying "May he live forever" when referring to or addressing the Tisroc, the ruler of the nation of Calormen in _The Chronicles of Narnia?_ Was Jordan inspired by that, or it is merely a coincidence?


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## Nae'blis (Apr 14, 2013)

^don't know what that is, but not necessarily an inspiration for Jordan. Lots of cultures who have or previously had thought that their monarchs are appointed by the god(s) would wish them everlasting life because the gods displeasure in the ruler would mean displeasure in the commons.

What was Mesaana up to? Considering the time frame of events, there is nothing much she could have done to seriously aid the Last Battle. I mean, sure, if the AS were suspicious of each other it would have had an impact on the battle; but we only know that after the fact. She should have been aiming for a very decisive blow like turning AS to the shadow.


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## perman07 (Apr 14, 2013)

Nae'blis said:


> What was Mesaana up to? Considering the time frame of events, there is nothing much she could have done to seriously aid the Last Battle. I mean, sure, if the AS were suspicious of each other it would have had an impact on the battle; but we only know that after the fact. She should have been aiming for a very decisive blow like turning AS to the shadow.


If Egwene hadn't been able to get the tower back reunited, the tower would have been divided, that's what she was doing. If it had remained divided, the good side certainly would have lost, so her plan wasn't as ineffectual as certain other Forsaken, though not up there with Demandred.


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## DocTerror (Apr 15, 2013)

Sanderson did an AMA on reddit today and answered a bunch of WoT questions


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## Darth (Feb 4, 2014)

Just finished the series. 

Was not impressed with the last two books. The Gathering Storm was probably my favorite book out of the last 3. Wasn't too fond of the ending either.

Overall i'd give this series a 7/10. It was honestly hyped way too much.


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## martryn (Feb 4, 2014)

Darth, I'm glad you agree with my consensus.  The last several books did a poor job of wrapping everything up, and the story became too inflated to support itself by book 5, with a majority of the books being taken up by secondary and tertiary characters, and entire entries coming and going without an appearance by all three of the main characters.


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## perman07 (Feb 4, 2014)

Thought the final book was intense as hell personally. The roller coaster ride of 700+ page book almost filled entirely with huge battles was pretty awesome IMO. Though it's sad that Robert Jordan died, while the Sanderson books are good as well IMO, there was a distinctly different feel to the last 3 books that I wished wasn't there. Particularly Mat just seemed like an altogether different character, more clownish.


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## Darth (Feb 4, 2014)

I definitely noticed the shift in writing towards mat's character. Egwene's as well. She became less Egwene and more of a "insert generic singleminded aes sedai here".

And honestly while the constant 700 page battle was somewhat thrilling, I felt it was written amateurishly. Steven Eriksson's battles felt a lot more real to me and I can't help but compare their writings as I've read both series fairly recently so they're still fresh in my mind. 

Not saying that Sanderson's books were bad, just not as good as they were hyped up to be.


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## martryn (Feb 4, 2014)

> Thought the final book was intense as hell personally.



I didn't think Mat or Perrin had very large roles to play in that battle.  I was looking for some sort of tactical genius from Mat, and I just didn't see it.  Other characters were badly mishandled, too.  I think the Ashaman were neglected, and Logain especially seemed out-of-character for what I thought he was being led up to do.  Meh.



> Steven Eriksson's battles felt a lot more real to me and I can't help but compare their writings as I've read both series fairly recently so they're still fresh in my mind.



No comparison.  Eriksson is a better author than Robert Jordan, and his world and characters are better developed.  But he still falls into the category of writing a series that has gotten too large for it's britches.  It does have a different tone than Wheel of Time, much more serious and tragic, so it's hard to say that fans of one will necessarily be fans of the other, but Eriksson writes better war/battle "scenes" than any other author I can think of.

I did pick up the first book of the Mistborn series by Sanderson, which I hear is pretty good.  Looking forward to reading that when I make my way through some other reading first.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 5, 2014)

it's not really fair to say that malazan is better written solely because of the battles, since the authors were aiming for different things when they were writing their stories. the same with saying grrm has better political intrigue. all of that is true, but i am unwilling to believe that jordan entered this with the mindset of "let me write the most detailed and refined battle/political story fantasy has ever seen". it never pretended to be that either.

i really love grrm because of the literal game of thrones in his books, but the battles themselves aren't really anything breathtaking. i am not going to then say "oh grrm is a shit because his battles suck compared to malazan". and I don't think anyone else here would either.

i have always approached this series as a story about people; about how a kid picked up a sword he didn't want but did his duty anyway. a lot more similar to belgarion than elendil.

i really liked how sanderson backtracked on the gawin fapping session and set him up to die the most undignified death of a main character. his fight with demandred was just to show that galad was a better swordsman, and Aan'allein was a much better swordsman.


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## Darth (Feb 5, 2014)

When I first picked up this series, I was really hyped for it from my best friend at the time. He kept going on an on about the scale of magic and battles and it got me really excited. I was expecting an epic fantasy armies, demons, sorcerers, and the battle between good and evil in an epic climax. What I got was several books of political intrigue, emotional turmoil, and scattered viewpoints mixed in with two dimensional characters. Especially since I read AsoIaF and Malazan before reading this series, I was a tad bit disappointed. 

And I'd have to say the most undignified deaths in The wheel of Time were Siuan's and Gareth Bryne's. Sure, Gawyn's was bad but at least he died to one of the last remaining and most powerful Forsaken in an epic sword duel. Siuan and Gareth basically got killed off screen. As did Bashere apparently.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 5, 2014)

Yeah they did die rather pathetic deaths.

GRRM was hyped beyond belief for me before I read the series. It took me three years to get beyond the Daenerys marriage/rape chapter, but knowing that his series was not going to be rosy like Robert Jordan helped me enjoy GRRM.

The problem I have with Gawyn is that since _Lord of Chaos_ and especially since the book after _Knife of Dreams_, he was hyped up to be the greatest swordsman to ever live and a god on the battle field, which is bullshit. This is a city boy who learned the sword in his garden. He should not be killing Aiel (who were born with spear in hand) like so many fish in a barrel. He should not be killing three expertly trained assassins with cloaking/speed/strength ter'angreal at the same time. He should not be destroying seasoned warders two or three at a time like sandwiches at a feast-day picnic. And those fucking asshole warders should not be saying he is better than Lan. I am convinced Jordan played that little shit up just to piss readers off.


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## martryn (Feb 5, 2014)

> it's not really fair to say that malazan is better written solely because of the battles, since the authors were aiming for different things when they were writing their stories.



No, of course not.  Jordan had a rousing adventure story going for him, that was mostly light-hearted and exciting, but sometimes got a bit darker for periods.  It worked.  But it eventually got bogged down by secondary characters, and even long chapters and POVs featuring tertiary characters, and that's the biggest downfall of the Wheel of Time.  I'd even be ok with how long the series is if it focused more on characters we have a reason to care about. 

And it's not like Malazan is great because of it's battle sequences.  Not that they're bad, but it's really that Erikson can set the mood.  Reading a Malazan book is like working a puzzle, as you try to fit the pieces together of what everything means while a dog takes a shit on your soul.



> And I'd have to say the most undignified deaths in The wheel of Time were Siuan's and Gareth Bryne's. Sure, Gawyn's was bad but at least he died to one of the last remaining and most powerful Forsaken in an epic sword duel. Siuan and Gareth basically got killed off screen. As did Bashere apparently.



None of this made any impact on me.  I read the book last year and I can't recall who died and who lived, other than Egwene and Gawyn.  This, again, is Jordan's fault for having so many fucking characters, and trying to tie them all together in the last book.  The entire thing felt incredibly rushed.


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## Darth (Feb 5, 2014)

Nae'blis said:


> Yeah they did die rather pathetic deaths.
> 
> GRRM was hyped beyond belief for me before I read the series. It took me three years to get beyond the Daenerys marriage/rape chapter, but knowing that his series was not going to be rosy like Robert Jordan helped me enjoy GRRM.
> 
> The problem I have with Gawyn is that since _Lord of Chaos_ and especially since the book after _Knife of Dreams_, he was hyped up to be the greatest swordsman to ever live and a god on the battle field, which is bullshit. This is a city boy who learned the sword in his garden. He should not be killing Aiel (who were born with spear in hand) like so many fish in a barrel. He should not be killing three expertly trained assassins with cloaking/speed/strength ter'angreal at the same time. He should not be destroying seasoned warders two or three at a time like sandwiches at a feast-day picnic. And those fucking asshole warders should not be saying he is better than Lan. I am convinced Jordan played that little shit up just to piss readers off.



Yeah I also thought it was pretty stupid that Gawyn managed to kill so many warders when the White Tower split. The only explanation for that, that I could think of was that his teachers were hesitant to kill him and he exploited that and cut them down in cold blood like the murdering asshole he is. 

I honestly didn't feel much when I read Gawyn's death. Although I did feel sorry for Galad when he found him dying on the field. But ultimately, I just shrugged it off and said "whatever". I was pretty disappointed at the way Bryne and Siuan died. And Egwene's death, while flashy, felt kind of hollow. Maybe it was the way it was written. Her character didn't really seem like one that needed to die but at that point she wasn't Egwene anymore. She was just the staple Aes Sedai embodiment of "The Amyrlin Seat", and she lost practically all of her character development that she gained while she was with the Aiel to become that figure. 

Yeah that ending was a mess.


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 11, 2014)




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## perman07 (Feb 11, 2014)

Lan? He looks to small to be honest. I imagine Lan as a broad-shouldered, but slimmer Rock/Arnold who's very imposing (the olympic weightlifter Klokov would make a good Lan). That could work as a an ugly Galad who I imagine smaller and more elegant (though the face is obviously wrong).

Then again, my imagination isn't the answer either


----------



## Naisutime (Mar 5, 2014)

perman07 said:


> Thought the final book was intense as hell personally. The roller coaster ride of 700+ page book almost filled entirely with huge battles was pretty awesome IMO. Though it's sad that Robert Jordan died, while the Sanderson books are good as well IMO, there was a distinctly different feel to the last 3 books that I wished wasn't there. *Particularly Mat just seemed like an altogether different character, more clownish*.



Mat was fucking awful in the last book. I thought he was okay during my one read of book, but now that I think about it, he was just terrible and out of character.

The scene where he supposed were going to "feel the pulse of the battle" or some shit and mowed down Mydraal like they were fodder just screamed Sanderson scene. I mean we're talking about the guy who said "I don't intend to get close enough to the fighting to need armor. A general who draws his sword and put aside his baton becomes a common soldier." and spent entire books trying to run away from battles.


----------



## Howler5 (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm obviously entering this thread late and due to the size of the series,  its hard to put my thoughts into a single spot and focus on one particular thing,  but here goes;

Charactaerisations - this is the best part about the series,  the characters and their depth - at the same time,  its also the worse thing about the series and the writing.  With writing,  characters need to be relatively basic,  as compared to people in real life,  they need to be understandable and can to be some exten be pigeonholed into a niche where the reader can say , 'that guys a good guy,  that guys a bad guy,  that guys in between'  and move on with the story.

With WOT series,  the way of writing had not other alternative but to make in depth characters; its length demanded in depth exploration of the people involved.  This meant that characters who has only a passing influence,  if any at all in the grand scheme of things,  were explored nevertheless in great detail.  This meant that you would see characters come and go,  never to be seen again,  despite knowing the most intimate aspect of their life,  their interests and how often their bosom rose or not and whether they had a habit of moving strands of hair that fell in front of their face or just liked to drink tea.

That was infuriating for me and took away time from my favourite characters.

In all honesty,  this series is overrated,  its like a two book story,  simply streatched out into multiple books.  So many of the intermidiate books where nothing happened of any significance,  yet this 'nothingness'  was contained in hundreds of pages.  That is where the skill took place imo,  in leading the reader like a carrot,  toward an end that was never really forthcoming,  nor intended to happen.

The first five of six books were the best by far,  with a well woven story,  brilliant and engaging characters and a background narrative that was fascinating and compelling.  However, it just dragged on and on needlessly until I just wished a bomb would land on the whole thing and put everyone out of their misery.  There's nothing worse than knowing you are being fleeced and also knowing that you are too engaged in the story to stop being taken advantage of.


----------



## perman07 (Apr 26, 2014)

I agree with that criticism with regard to books 8-10 (particularly 10 which revisited the period of the cleansing was awful). But I still think it's an awesome series. Some of the length was needed IMO, and while a lot of time was devoted to secondary characters, I think that was partly warranted with a series of this scope. My annoyance of it is more how the secondary female characters so often were the sniffing superior variety, so it was how they were characterized that was the problem, not necessarily that too much time was dedicated too it, though Faile in particular should have had lots of her parts in Malden slashed.


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## UchihaItachimk (May 1, 2014)

Naisutime said:


> Mat was fucking awful in the last book. I thought he was okay during my one read of book, but now that I think about it, he was just terrible and out of character.
> 
> The scene where he supposed were going to "feel the pulse of the battle" or some shit and mowed down Mydraal like they were fodder just screamed Sanderson scene. I mean we're talking about the guy who said "I don't intend to get close enough to the fighting to need armor. A general who draws his sword and put aside his baton becomes a common soldier." and spent entire books trying to run away from battles.



He said that but he always fought it was his nature I am not a hero but he always did the rightthing . He fought the Ail and slew Kuladin or what was his name


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## perman07 (May 1, 2014)

UchihaItachimk said:


> He said that but he always fought it was his nature I am not a hero but he always did the rightthing . He fought the Ail and slew Kuladin or what was his name


He did it begrudgingly in earlier books though. I can accept a certain evolution of his characters, but there was a noticeable change from the moment Sanderson took over in him. He was a negative scoundrel with his own code of honor that turned into a clownish Sue that could do anything.


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## martryn (May 2, 2014)

Still say the last book fell flat.  So much so that there are many parts of it that I just don't remember anymore.  Jordan created too much world, with too many characters that for some reason needed a "resolution", and things felt really rushed by the end of the series, which is surprising considering how slow things seemed to drag in the middle of the series.  And some of the more important resolution we never did get to see.


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## Galo de Lion (May 2, 2014)

You guys have probably already heard that Obsidian (South Park: The Stick of Truth) is making a game of it.


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## Naisutime (May 2, 2014)

UchihaItachimk said:


> He said that but he always fought it was his nature I am not a hero but he always did the rightthing . He fought the Ail and slew Kuladin or what was his name



That's not really the point. Being a Ta'veren always forced him into battles, but he almost always tried to stay as far from the actual fighting as humanly possible laying plans and directing the battle. 

While in the last he book suddenly wades into a hordes of Trollocs and Myrdraal on his own volition cause he gotta feel dat "pulse of the battle"...



perman07 said:


> I agree with that criticism with regard to books 8-10 (particularly 10 which revisited the period of the cleansing was awful). But I still think it's an awesome series. Some of the length was needed IMO, and while a lot of time was devoted to secondary characters, I think that was partly warranted with a series of this scope. My annoyance of it is more how the secondary female characters so often were the sniffing superior variety, so it was how they were characterized that was the problem, not necessarily that too much time was dedicated too it, though Faile in particular should have had lots of her parts in Malden slashed.



Elayne had faaar too many PoV's as well, especially during the succession war and imho should've been relegated to more minor role like Aviendha and Min.


----------



## martryn (May 2, 2014)

> Elayne had faaar too many PoV's as well, especially during the succession war and imho should've been relegated to more minor role like Aviendha and Min.



Both Aviendha and Min would have made more interesting POVs anyways.  All three should never have been given POVs in the first place.  We could have learned everything we needed from them from someone else's POV.  The women side story was more than annoying.  It actually ruined some of the books and tainted the series.  Their hunt for the female Forsaken was interesting, but it shouldn't have been one of the large story lines in the series.  We got too much White Tower and not enough Black Tower, when the Black Tower was easily a more interesting place to explore.


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (May 2, 2014)

Well, even in the last book the Black Tower was rather dull. A main keep and a sequence of ditches with Turning rituals underground. I expected a lot more, not to say that Logain's role was nearly useless. 

The thing that i liked the least of the last book were the dialogues, it looked mostly like a rushed fanfiction. 
Anyway it was an hard job, i'm just glad that someone finished the saga.


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## Lucaniel (Jul 25, 2014)

guys i just realised something

erm

are there dogs in wot?

i don't remember any dogs

or cats, either

oh, there were cats

but the only dogs were the stone dogs


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## perman07 (Jul 25, 2014)

Dogs gathered around main channelers while cats gathered around female channelers. Meaning cats gathered around the White tower while dogs gathered around the Black tower.


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## Darth (Feb 4, 2015)

Brandon Sanderson said:
			
		

> I tread lightly in these areas, because I'm not entirely certain what Harriet wants me sharing, and what she doesn't. I think that the longer we get from the publication of the last book, the more I'll feel comfortable saying.
> 
> Most of the choices come down to "how?" The notes would present something Robert Jordan said he wanted to happen, but didn't talk about the details--only the desired effect. We had to decide how to best achieve his wishes. In the cases of some characters (such as Perrin) very little direction was left. In those cases, I sat down with the series as it had come before and had to decide how to complete the character arc, as RJ had created it so far.
> An excellent example of things we had to decide has to do with the climactic fight of Rand vs Dark One. Robert Jordan had instructed us what Rand was to learn, what the Dark One wanted to gain, etc. He'd written the epilogue, where Rand stumbles from the cavern talking about why he'd made the decision he had.
> ...



A fun fact.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 4, 2015)

perman07 said:


> Dogs gathered around main channelers while cats gathered around female channelers. Meaning cats gathered around the White tower while dogs gathered around the Black tower.



Where was that stated? If it is true, I really do not like it, because the idea that cats are feminine while dogs are masculine is an utterly foolish one that has no rational foundation.


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## perman07 (Feb 4, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Where was that stated? If it is true, I really do not like it, because the idea that cats are feminine while dogs are masculine is an utterly foolish one that has no rational foundation.


The cat thing was explicitly stated about female channelers, and several female channelers (for instance Asne of the Black Ajah) made a hobby of taking care of cats. Meanwhile, in the Black tower, there were a lot of dogs hanging around for some reason, and they attacked one of Logain's bonded Aes Sedai who were under bonded orders to not channel, so she couldn't defend herself against a pack of dogs.

The implication being obvious, cats like women channelers, dogs like men channelers, and there is hostility the other way, though we never saw cats attack male channelers.

Seems to be another one of Jordan's contrast between saidar and saidin.

We also know wolves could straight up see whether someone could channel, so there seems to be some unique animal skill involved here.


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## Cyphon (Feb 4, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Where was that stated? If it is true, I really do not like it, because the idea that cats are feminine while dogs are masculine is an utterly foolish one that has no rational foundation.



But is widely accepted in a sense.

Dogs are called *mans* best friend and you only ever hear about cat *ladies*, not cat men. So it is very easy to see why he would take that route.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 4, 2015)

Cyphon said:


> But is widely accepted in a sense.
> 
> Dogs are called *mans* best friend and you only ever hear about cat *ladies*, not cat men. So it is very easy to see why he would take that route.



It still is playing to an old stereotype that has no logical basis, and I thought that this series broke away from many stereotypes of previous fantasy series.


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## perman07 (Feb 5, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> It still is playing to an old stereotype that has no logical basis, and I thought that this series broke away from many stereotypes of previous fantasy series.


It's not a _fantasy_ stereotype though, it's a general cultural stereotype that I think has an understandable basis, if not exactly a logical one. Cats are graceful, beautiful and fickle, while dogs are simple, loyal and not graceful, which sort of resonate with men and women are perceived.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 6, 2015)

perman07 said:


> It's not a _fantasy_ stereotype though, it's a general cultural stereotype that I think has an understandable basis, if not exactly a logical one. Cats are graceful, beautiful and fickle, while dogs are simple, loyal and not graceful, which sort of resonate with men and women are perceived.



I still do not like it; I am male, but I am not fond of dogs; I much prefer cats, since they are far more graceful, make less noise, clean themselves, and can be trained to excrete in a litter box. They are far more self-sufficient than dogs and therefore require less effort from their owners, and I certainly do not ever wish to be compared to a dog, which is almost always an insult.


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## Cyphon (Feb 6, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I still do not like it; I am male, but I am not fond of dogs; I much prefer cats, since they are far more graceful, make less noise, clean themselves, and can be trained to excrete in a litter box. They are far more self-sufficient than dogs and *therefore require less effort from their owners*



So you are saying you are lazy. Got it. 



> and I certainly do not ever wish to be compared to a dog, which is almost always an insult.



I don't think being called a pussy cat is much better


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 6, 2015)

This discussion of cats and dogs is ridiculous; it is not contributing in a meaningful way to the thread, nor will will it have any meaningful result.

I did ask this before, but I wish to ask, again: is there any possibility of there being a television series of this franchise? The adaptation of _A Song of Ice and Fire_ is quite popular, currently so I see no reason why there could not be a television adaptation of this epic fantasy series, as well. What does everyone else think of that?


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## Cyphon (Feb 6, 2015)

It is too large to likely ever get a visual format and even if it did I am not sure it would have enough popularity. ASoIaF sells because of the sex and violence and such. WoT is too PG.


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## perman07 (Feb 6, 2015)

Cyphon said:


> It is too large to likely ever get a visual format and even if it did I am not sure it would have enough popularity. ASoIaF sells because of the sex and violence and such. WoT is too PG.


Long-time animation project would be my ideal solution, but no culture for grown-up, non-comedic animation outside Japan unfortunately. If this was a popular series in Japan, they would make it there. I don't get how there can not be money in doing this in the English-speaking world, there should be more money in animation series in English, more available consumers and all.

The success of Avatar: The Last Airbender makes me believe the market is there, it's just no-one is willing to take a chance. Wheel of Time would be a perfect long-time animation project really, in the same vein of Naruto, Bleach and One Piece, only not drawn out and with fillers.


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## Nae'blis (Feb 7, 2015)

If the rape fantasy of Kahlan did not sell, I doubt this vanilla series would get much attention.


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## perman07 (Feb 8, 2015)

Nae'blis said:


> If the rape fantasy of Kahlan did not sell, I doubt this vanilla series would get much attention.


What's the rape fantasy of Kahlan?

And weird to call the series that spawned your user name 'vanilla'...


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## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 9, 2015)

DemonDragonJ;52833547is there any possibility of there being a television series of this franchise? The adaptation of [I said:
			
		

> A Song of Ice and Fire[/I] is quite popular, currently so I see no reason why there could not be a television adaptation of this epic fantasy series, as well. What does everyone else think of that?


So .


----------



## Nae'blis (Feb 9, 2015)

And will end right there as well.





DemonDragonJ said:


> Kahlan.



There is probably some punctuation missing to make my meaning clear. Kahlan almost gets raped a number of times in the series, and nearly every other female character actually does. A rape fantasy series about Kahlan.


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## jkingler (Feb 10, 2015)

Yeah, that WoT pilot is something I didn't see coming...because it was never announced.


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## Darth (Feb 10, 2015)

Cyphon said:


> It is too large to likely ever get a visual format and even if it did I am not sure it would have enough popularity. ASoIaF sells because of the sex and violence and such. WoT is too PG.


Well Shannara is getting a new T.V. series and it's a bigger story than The Wheel of Time, so it's definitely possible. Depending on who gets the rights to make one.



Vaatu said:


> So .



Hahahahhahaha this timing is incredible. It's too bad it'll never see the light of day.


----------



## Darth (Feb 12, 2015)




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## Sanity Check (Feb 12, 2015)

Someone also bought the tv rights to Patrick Rothfuss' Name of the Wind franchise.  That was like 2-3 years ago.  Maybe they bought the rights to block others from producing the series?

.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Feb 13, 2015)

Next part:


> *'Wheel Of Time' TV Producers Sue For Slander In Rights Row*
> 
> By *Michael Lipkin*
> Law360, San Diego (February 12, 2015,  8:08 PM ET) --  			The producers of a TV adaptation of Robert Jordan’s “Wheel of Time”  fantasy book series accused the author’s widow of slander on Thursday in  California federal court, alleging she publicly ridiculed the pilot  that aired days before the producers’ rights were set to expire.
> ...


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 18, 2015)

In happier news: 





> The story of The Wheel of Time spans fifteen books, but the fantasy world which that story resides within is more complex and detailed than even those books could relate. Only a fraction of what author Robert Jordan imagined ended up on the page, the rest going into his personal files.
> 
> On November 3,  encyclopedia will open those files, but you can get a sneak peek now.
> 
> ...


Wheel of Time Companion and Spin the Wheel coverage through this tag

So what questions have been gnawing at your brain?


----------



## martryn (Jun 18, 2015)

> So what questions have been gnawing at your brain?



Are there still Wheel of Time fans now that the series has ended?


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## Darth (Jun 18, 2015)

martryn said:


> Are there still Wheel of Time fans now that the series has ended?



Lord of the Rings ended in 1955. Were there still fans after that series ended?


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## martryn (Jun 18, 2015)

> Lord of the Rings ended in 1955. Were there still fans after that series ended?



Lord of the Rings being a masterpiece, genre defining, best selling, elaborately sculptured piece of literature from a true scholar?  Yeah, history will remember.


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## perman07 (Jun 19, 2015)

martryn said:


> Lord of the Rings being a masterpiece, genre defining, best selling, elaborately sculptured piece of literature from a true scholar?  Yeah, history will remember.


Besides Lord of the Rings being genre-defining, it's worse than Wheel of Time in most ways IMO. You always come in this thread and act like your opinion is the objective truth, while many consider WoT a masterpiece. Don't see why you're even subscribed to this thread, seems you just wanna be contrary.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2015)

anyone who thinks WoT is a masterpiece is wrong

can't speak for lotr, read it way too long ago to be sure what i'd think of it now


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## Darth (Jun 19, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> anyone who thinks WoT is a masterpiece is wrong
> 
> can't speak for lotr, read it way too long ago to be sure what i'd think of it now



Dude your opinion is totes wrongerer than mine opinion Imo tbh Tbf just saiyan mang


Seriously though, I'll agree that I also don't consider WoT a masterpiece. It was a good read but it won't go down in history as a legendary series. Just a very long very fantastical one that had a lot of potential before the author's brain got old. 

That hardly means it's fans have disappeared.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2015)

wot would be twice as good if cadsuane had been tortured to death by moridin


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## martryn (Jun 19, 2015)

I came and made a post out of jest.  Yes, the series started pretty good, but it unquestionably became bogged down with extraneous subplots and by the end of the series it largely felt like the "main characters" just had cameo roles.  Jordan had trouble writing women, the "cultures" were just plucked from history and plopped down in his world, and the characters from those cultures quickly became caricatures.  The series was likely 7 or 8 books longer than it should have been, which is a huge obstacle when it comes to attracting new readers here in about a decade, the true, die-hard fans are slowly going to fall away and disappear, and in 30-40 years the series will flounder in obscurity without the help of Hollywood.

I enjoyed Wheel of Time until the end of the series, but I wouldn't rank it very high comparative to other fantasy series.  It was an enjoyable romp and a light read.  Now that it's been a few years since the last book has come out, I just don't have any interest in exploring unanswered questions in the series.  My biggest ones would be things like, "Why didn't Mat display any military genius during the last battle?" and "Why wasn't the black tower storyline pursued any harder?" and "How were we supposed to remember dozens of minor Aes Sedai, their ajahs, their warders, and their plot lines?"

I can assure you, if you told me what you liked about Wheel of Time, I could probably find you a series, better written, that does it better.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2015)

there's a series that does head-clutchingly autistic interactions between men and women better? good god


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## martryn (Jun 19, 2015)

> there's a series that does head-clutchingly autistic interactions between men and women better?



Have you ever heard of Twilight?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2015)

i actually read the first book and to be honest, those interactions were legitimately preferable to even rand and egwene's bickering in book 1, let alone sperg mode nynaeve, elayne trying to do power plays on mat on the way to ebou dar, perrin and faile, and cadsuane's everything


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## martryn (Jun 19, 2015)

Damn, you had to mention them all.  And now I'm remembering how shit Jordan is at writing women.


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## perman07 (Jun 20, 2015)

I agree with all the flaws you guys mentioned, but of all the fantasy I've read, (which isn't a lot), it's still the best. LotR is lower for me, Malazan's too much work so I dropped that (2nd and 3rd book were both massive chores to start with all those new characters, never powered through the start of 3), Riftwar saga was boring so I dropped it, Harry Potter is decent but still lower, His Dark Materials is good but lower, Mistborn saga is good but lower, Stormlight archives is lower but promising and I can't think of anything else. Have not read ASoFaI because of GoT.

Wouldn't be that wrong to say WoT has a high standing among the stuff I've read by exclusion, though all the women thing never seemed to annoy me as much as it annoyed other people, and I learned to phase through cloth- and interior descriptions, so it felt like I read mostly good plot.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2015)

martryn said:


> Damn, you had to mention them all.  And now I'm remembering how shit Jordan is at writing women.



man, i didn't even mention them all, because i totally forgot about how mat got raped by tylin and then had to tolerate tuon's autistic slaver-queen airs 

poor mat
poor perrin
poor rand


----------



## martryn (Jun 20, 2015)

> Malazan's too much work so I dropped that (2nd and 3rd book were both massive chores to start with all those new characters, never powered through the start of 3)



Excuse me, what?  Damn, the second and third books of the Malazan series were the best of the bunch (despite all of the books being great).  Power through?  As in slow start?  The stuff with Toc?  The stuff with Gruntle?  The stuff with the Mortal Sword and Destriant, etc, of Fener?  Did you not get how all this stuff was tying together to form an overarching narrative?  Did the second book not drive you to tears with it's ending?

I will from this point forward regard you on par with those people saying Twilight is the best series ever written.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2015)

memories of ice is a slow starter and i did struggle to get deeper into it

but once i hit the stride it became easily the best book of the series so far (more than halfway through book 4 atm)

it has all the unrelenting, harrowing brutality of deadhouse gates, but it also has a legitimately poignant, powerful, and redemptive conclusion

itkovian 

i think deadhouse gates is a tad overrated because it's evaluated almost solely in terms of the chain of dogs narrative (which becomes monotonous to boot), and people forget how much of it is felisin wallowing in resentment and self-hatred while she, heboric, and baudin snipe at each other. not to mention the long and tedious time icarium and mappo spend trying to figure out iskaral pust. crokus kind of goes nowhere as a character, too, which i found annoying because he was the most fun part of gotm


----------



## martryn (Jun 20, 2015)

re: Deadhouse Gates

While the Chain of Dogs stuff was great, I did like the Felisin chapters.  The mines stuff was boring, but when they found the statue in the desert, I remember being blown away by the scale of it, and sitting trying to imagine if the statue were my size, how small the trio would have been by comparison.  I also loved Baudin, and that entire plot line was greatly enhanced when Stormy and Gesler showed up.  The Iskaral Pust stuff was a real mystery, and I reveled in the opportunity to learn more about the world, which is what Pust and Icarium and Mappo did.  All three become larger players as the story moves on.  Crokus did flounder in this book (he gets better) but he was with Fiddler and Kalam, and those two more than make up for it.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2015)

yeah when he was with fiddler pretending to be a gral tribesman, that was easily my favourite part of that plot strand, because it was plain fun


----------



## Parallax (Jun 20, 2015)

I've never read this series because Jordan died


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## Lucaniel (Jun 20, 2015)

視差 said:


> I've never read this series because Jordan died



you saved yourself a lot of time and annoyance


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## martryn (Jun 21, 2015)

If you could read the first, say, five books, and then be satisfied with asking questions about how things ended, that'd be for the best.  The first five books were really good and very addicting.  But things just slowed down to a crawl from there, and nothing was very good afterwards.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 21, 2015)

martryn said:


> If you could read the first, say, five books, and then be satisfied with asking questions about how things ended, that'd be for the best.  The first five books were really good and very addicting.  But things just slowed down to a crawl from there, and nothing was very good afterwards.



eh...the problems that plagued WoT were as present in the first five books as in the whole series. awful melodrama and character interactions, cringey romance, unnecessary subplots and stagnation, etc. they weren't much better than the rest. though i do think the dragon reborn or the shadow rising might have been the best individual books of jordan's run, sanderson's managed to continue the story effectively while cutting down on the bullshit, so i can't get behind saying read the first 5 and not any of the others as if the first 5 are all the best or something

and conversely if you stop at book 5 then you miss dumai's wells in book 6, which is the best climax in the series


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jun 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> i actually read the first book and to be honest, those interactions were legitimately preferable to even rand and egwene's bickering in book 1, let alone sperg mode nynaeve, elayne trying to do power plays on mat on the way to ebou dar, perrin and faile, and cadsuane's everything



the first book isn't where twilight's reputation comes from tbh tbf

you have to get into the soul mate wolfkin shit, suicidal bella, foetal crushes and undead vampire abortions for it to truly shine as a work of unadulterated ☻☻☻☻☻☻


----------



## perman07 (Jun 21, 2015)

martryn said:


> Excuse me, what?  Damn, the second and third books of the Malazan series were the best of the bunch (despite all of the books being great).  Power through?  As in slow start?  The stuff with Toc?  The stuff with Gruntle?  The stuff with the Mortal Sword and Destriant, etc, of Fener?  Did you not get how all this stuff was tying together to form an overarching narrative?  Did the second book not drive you to tears with it's ending?
> 
> I will from this point forward regard you on par with those people saying Twilight is the best series ever written.


Sure, struggling with the most notoriously hardcore fantasy series (at least that I know of) makes one equivalent to a Twilight fangirl, that's totally reasonable.

Both 1 and 2 were good, I enjoyed 1 more than 2 though cause I took ages to read through 2.

Reading to me is about entertainment, and my memory is not good. Due to my poor memory, I feel like a have to approach Malazan books like some scholarly project, and by book 3 I was sick of the process.

If you want to feel superior to people because you have some increase mental faculties that make you able read the Malazan books without straining, go ahead. Just don't equate that to people who struggle with Malazan to be morons, I don't see why it's so unreasonable to acknowledge it's demanding to many readers even though it may not be that demanding to you...


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## Darth (Jun 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> memories of ice is a slow starter and i did struggle to get deeper into it
> 
> but once i hit the stride it became easily the best book of the series so far (more than halfway through book 4 atm)
> 
> ...



What the hell luck you finished memories of ice months ago speed it up already you lazy sod.


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## martryn (Jun 21, 2015)

> Reading to me is about entertainment, and my memory is not good. Due to my poor memory, I feel like a have to approach Malazan books like some scholarly project, and by book 3 I was sick of the process.



Which, again, baffles me as an argument.  Wheel of Time has more minor characters that get their own PoVs, and keep turning up in the oddest places.  It wasn't until we got into the last few books that I started being able to tell the Forsaken apart. 



> so i can't get behind saying read the first 5 and not any of the others as if the first 5 are all the best or something



Maybe my argument should have tended more to the plot moving forward during the first five books, with book six being where things started slowing down.  

I agree that Dumai's Well was the best climax in the series, but book six just isn't very good otherwise.  Too much Aes Sedai bullshit.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 21, 2015)

> Which, again, baffles me as an argument. Wheel of Time has more minor characters that get their own PoVs, and keep turning up in the oddest places. It wasn't until we got into the last few books that I started being able to tell the Forsaken apart.



i don't know if wot has more minor _pov_ characters, but malazan undoubtedly has a much wider spread in terms of geography and chronology which makes its own head-spinningly enormous cast of characters and narrative much harder to follow than wot



> I agree that Dumai's Well was the best climax in the series, but book six just isn't very good otherwise. Too much Aes Sedai bullshit.



that i can agree on



Darth said:


> What the hell luck you finished memories of ice months ago speed it up already you lazy sod.



eat me, malazan is tough going


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## martryn (Jun 21, 2015)

> i don't know if wot has more minor pov characters, but malazan undoubtedly has a much wider spread in terms of geography and chronology which makes its own head-spinningly enormous cast of characters and narrative much harder to follow than wot



You're on book four.  Things settle down after the stage is set.  A lot of characters are around for a single book, besides.


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## perman07 (Jun 22, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> eat me, malazan is tough going


Thank you, was beginning to feel completely alone here.


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## Darth (Jun 22, 2015)

perman07 said:


> Thank you, was beginning to feel completely alone here.



Such weakness...


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## perman07 (Jun 22, 2015)

Darth said:


> Such weakness...


Hehe, internet douche


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## Naisutime (Jun 23, 2015)

10 years after I started Malazan and 500 pages into The Crippled God I realized that I don't give a darn about what's happening and that I'm not gonna bother finishing the series.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 23, 2015)

isn't that the last book?  at that point, you might as well just read on...

albeit i know that esslemont continues the narratives of malazan in extra books like return of the crimson guard and stonewielder, so i guess you may not want to bother

i was, myself, heartily discouraged when i found out that 


*Spoiler*: __ 



mallick rel becomes the new emperor of malazan

what the fuck??!?!?!


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## martryn (Jun 23, 2015)

> 10 years after I started Malazan and 500 pages into The Crippled God I realized that I don't give a darn about what's happening and that I'm not gonna bother finishing the series.



That's about fucking stupid.  I felt the same way about Wheel of Time when the Last Battle drug on and on and on, but I buckled down and finished the damn thing just to say that I did. 

Now, I tried reading Sword of Truth and got about six books in and decided not to finish the series.  What a fucking butchering of the Ayn Rand philosophy.  Goodkind really is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).  

Still, to have read the Wheel of Time and finish it, and yet not finish Malazan... fuck, man.  Almost neg worthy.



> albeit i know that esslemont continues the narratives of malazan in extra books like return of the crimson guard and stonewielder, so i guess you may not want to bother



Unrelated stories set in same universe.  Some crossover characters.  Some of the books are backstory books.  The trilogy he's writing now is all prequel novels giving more background.  The trilogy he's writing after follows Karsa Orlong (or toblakai, I can't remember if he's got a name as far as you've read).  The five short stories about Bachelain and Korbal Broach are fucking hilarious, and quick reads.  The main series is the main series.  The rest is just extra and not required nor necessary reading.


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## Naisutime (Jun 24, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> isn't that the last book?  at that point, you might as well just read on...
> 
> albeit i know that esslemont continues the narratives of malazan in extra books like return of the crimson guard and stonewielder, so i guess you may not want to bother
> 
> ...



Huh? Does the Esslemonts books continues the storyline after the The Crippled God?

I thought the events in those books just took place during the timeline of the original series.



martryn said:


> That's about fucking stupid.  I felt the same way about Wheel of Time when the Last Battle drug on and on and on, but I buckled down and finished the damn thing just to say that I did.
> 
> Now, I tried reading Sword of Truth and got about six books in and decided not to finish the series.  What a fucking butchering of the Ayn Rand philosophy.  Goodkind really is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).
> 
> Still, to have read the Wheel of Time and finish it, and yet not finish Malazan... fuck, man.  Almost neg worthy.



Finishing Memory of Light wasn't  #worth, but I still cared about some of the WoT characters which made finishing it ok even though the last battle was a giant pile of shit.

Malazan is a much harder read and the characters I care about (which can be counted on one hand) have a lot less spotlight than the ones I like in WoT. For example like the entire Yedan/First Shore plotline, I get that shit with Starvald Demelain and the Tiste Liosan is relatively high stakes, but I just can't remember why I should care whether any of these characters lives or dies.

This would probably change if I did a re-read, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon.


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## jkingler (Jun 24, 2015)

I wish I could read a heavily edited version of WoT, now that it is all done. Without quite so much of all the things you've all been bitching about, and feasts and firedrops and cleavage. I feel like there are 5 or 6 solid books in there, once you remove all the bloat.

Also, I understand why people would have a tough time with Malazan. It is definitely not for everyone. I myself am only just now finding the mental fortitude to finally finish the series, and only in audiobook format at the moment.


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## Patchouli (Jun 24, 2015)

Never read before.

Not sure if I should.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 24, 2015)

Naisutime said:


> Huh? Does the Esslemonts books continues the storyline after the The Crippled God?
> 
> I thought the events in those books just took place during the timeline of the original series.



i _think_ stonewielder is after tcg

rotcg isn't


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## Darth (Jun 24, 2015)

Patchouli said:


> Never read before.
> 
> Not sure if I should.



Well if you're really craving a hard fantasy then sure why not. The first couple books are pretty good.

For me the series only started going downhill once the author died and Brandon Sanderson picked it up. Unfortunately unavoidable but definitely a major blow to The Wheel of Time. 

Sanderson did his best, he just... butchered... so many characters...


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## Lucaniel (Jun 24, 2015)

> For me the series only started going downhill once the author died and Brandon Sanderson picked it up.



holy fuck this is bullshit


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## martryn (Jun 24, 2015)

Sanderson is easily a better writer than Jordan.  I'm not sure if even Jordan could have finished his own series in a way that satisfied readers.


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## Darth (Jun 24, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> holy fuck this is bullshit



No seriously,

Sanderson completely changed the POV's for characters like Egwene, Mat, and Nynaeve. I read all the books quickly in the span of like a month and a half and it was ridiculously apparent to me the change in writing. Sanderson apparently didn't like the way Jordan created those characters and decided to remake them in his own image which i thought was retarded. 

Also fuck you Luc go die in a ditch.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 24, 2015)

Darth said:


> No seriously,
> 
> Sanderson completely changed the POV's for characters like Egwene, Mat, and Nynaeve. I read all the books quickly in the span of like a month and a half and it was ridiculously apparent to me the change in writing. Sanderson apparently didn't like the way Jordan created those characters and decided to remake them in his own image which i thought was retarded.
> 
> Also fuck you Luc go die in a ditch.



sanderson changed mat, yes

he didn't change egwene or nynaeve. though i guess he actually made egwene more palatable for tgs

then she went back to vintage jordan bitch mode in tom

anyway the real drop-off point for the books in terms of general quality is, like martryn said, after the fires of heaven, because while the books are _all_ plagued with the same problems, the narrative loses focus and direction beginning with lord of chaos, starts meandering, and i'm pretty sure books 8-11 are almost universally considered to be a mire of stagnation


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## martryn (Jun 24, 2015)

kingler said it best when he said that the entire series could have been cut in half and would have ended up a better read.  Sanderson finished the series.  He didn't write it into the corner it was in, and he had to use the outline Jordan laid forth on his deathbed.  

I wish I could say that the first five books were fine, but now that I'm thinking about it, the first five books only made it evident that there was no way the series was going to be wrapped up in any timely fashion.  To improve on WoT, I would have made some pretty major changes:

1.  Keep dead Forsaken dead.  No name changes.  No sex changes.
2.  Drop most of the Aes Sedai plot threads.  No sundering or Rebel Tower shit.
3.  Drop most of Perrin's plot in the last half of the series.
4.  Drop Elayne's plot threads entirely.  None of that political bullshit.
5.  Drop plots involving the Windfinders and their people.  They don't matter.  Also Bowl of Winds.
6.  Make Rand, Mat, and Perrin the main characters of the story again. 
7.  Did I say drop the political shit?  

Focus on:
Rand - his worries, his fears, his plans, and the relationships around him.
Mat - and his trying to stay uninvolved except when fate seems to push him into it.
Perrin - and... something.  Perrin is a great character that serves no purpose past book 4.  Faile killed him.
Egwene - and rooting out female forsaken, not running the White Tower.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 24, 2015)

some of these are good suggestions and some i disagree with

plot-wise

1. keep the sundering of the white tower and formation of the rebel tower, but streamline the plot so that instead of twiddling their thumbs in salidar for 3 books, they actually have a civil war 

2. don't have faile be kidnapped. just have perrin fight the shaido because someone needs to put them down, they're ravaging the country, etc. also have perrin deal with the dragonsworn

3. either remove the seanchan entirely or dedicate a book to having rand straight up crush them. the eventual status quo of an uneasy, morally disgusting truce with a society of slavers was terrible. reduce tuon's plot significance enormously

4. i agree with dropping the windfinders

5. keep dead forsaken dead, but keep them dead because they all get balefired, otherwise it doesn't make sense for them to stay dead

6. DO SOMETHING WITH THE BLACK TOWER. have rand involved with organising it and turning it into a body that is a credible opposite and balancing force to the white tower instead of being a fucked up mess consumed by the shadow which needs the intercession of aes sedai in order to be saved

7. pare down elayne and nynaeve's terrible-ass storylines which involve stuff like valan luca's travelling circus and all that shit. also most of the stuff in ebou dar 

8. make shara important to the main storyline so it's not just an out of nowhere DEM-esque thing when demandred turns up at the head of an army from shara 

etc.


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