# KCM Naruto vs EMS Sasuke



## Luftwaffles (Jun 22, 2013)

Location: VotE
Distance: 40 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None

Who wins?


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

With IMO attached to every one of these statements:

Author's intent: EMS Sasuke w/o Perfect Susanoo = KCM Naruto

Feats: KCM Naruto's much stronger due to kage-level clone spam + guided FRS or Bijuurasengan, and now even moreso with Kurama making KCM chakra while naruto's in that mode.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

the authors intent has:

ems sasuke only using up to V3 susano=kcm naruto.

unrestricted ems sasuke stomps with no effort whatsoever.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the authors intent has:
> 
> ems sasuke only using up to V3 susano=kcm naruto w/o kage-level clones, flash shunshin, bijuurasengan
> 
> via Author's intent, unrestricted ems sasuke is current KCM Naruto's equal.



Hope ya don't mind young chap, but I fixed up the errors in your post for ya.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Hope ya don't mind young chap, but I fixed up the errors in your post for ya.


the full power of kcm naruto(chou odama rasenshuriken) was matched by a casual enton arrow from sasuke only using V3 susano.


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *the full power of kcm naruto(chou odama rasenshuriken)* was matched by a casual enton arrow from sasuke only using V3 susano.



The bolded is something you'd have to argue for.  Why is the full power of KCM Naruto chou oodama FRS?

If anything it shows that KCM Naruto can fire Chou oodama FRS as easily as Sasuke can fire casual enton arrows.

Also, how would a lvl4 susanoo change the power of Sasuke's arrow?  Would having an arrow shot from that susanoo somehow make it stronger?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The bolded is something you'd have to argue for.  Why is the full power of KCM Naruto chou oodama FRS?


its kcm narutos full power because its the strongest thing he has shown.


> If anything it shows that KCM Naruto can fire Chou oodama FRS as easily as Sasuke can fire casual enton arrows.


kcm naruto clapped the seal to make the frs a full 4 pages before sasuke even began forming his arrow and their techniques were ready at the same time.



> Also, how would a lvl4 susanoo change the power of Sasuke's arrow?  Would having an arrow shot from that susanoo somehow make it stronger?



its an increase in firepower obviously.


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> its kcm narutos full power because its the strongest thing he has shown.


then giant susanoo arrow is EMS Sasuke's full power because it's the strongest thing he has shown.

Also, KCM Naruto has clones which allows him to multiply his offensive output, something that sasuke can't.  Thus if COFRS = enton arrow, then 13 COFRS >>>> enton arrow, and thus KCM NAruto > EMS SAsuke



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> kcm naruto clapped the seal to make the frs a full 4 pages before sasuke even began forming his arrow and their techniques were ready at the same time.


Bad.

rasengans and FRS are all seal-less jutsus, so naruto didn't form it in less time than sasuke did.  Unlike sasuke's arrow though, Naruto doesn't have to take time and load it in a bow, so COFRS is actually the one that can be spammed quicker.  And Naruto was ready way before Sasuke, his FRS was formed and waiting to be fired 3 pages before Sasuke was ready to fire his arrow.

So CORFRS can be spammed way quicker than the arrow and NAruto can multiply that rate with clones out.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> its an increase in firepower obviously.


Based on what?  Going by this logic, the power of naruto's FRS increases with the amount of chakra arms he uses, so he can level up his FRS 6 fold since he only used 3 chakra arms.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> then giant susanoo arrow is EMS Sasuke's full power because it's the strongest thing he has shown.


no it isnt. his lvl 4 susano is the strongest thing he has shown.


> Also, KCM Naruto has clones which allows him to multiply his offensive output, something that sasuke can't.  Thus if COFRS = enton arrow, then 13 COFRS >>>> enton arrow, and thus KCM NAruto > EMS SAsuke


clones havent been shown to use COFRS.




> Bad.
> 
> rasengans and FRS are all seal-less jutsus, so naruto didn't form it in less time than sasuke did.  Unlike sasuke's arrow though, Naruto doesn't have to take time and load it in a bow, so COFRS is actually the one that can be spammed quicker.  And Naruto was ready way before Sasuke, his FRS was formed and waiting to be fired 3 pages before Sasuke was ready to fire his arrow.


so kishi just had naruto use a seal right before using the tech for the lulz?
wait nevermind. it took naruto 3 pages to form COFRS and it took sasuke one panel to form an enton arrow.


> So CORFRS can be spammed way quicker than the arrow and* NAruto can multiply that rate with clones out.*


i need feats for the bold.
LOL at COFRS being equal to enton arrows in preparation. i guess_ 3 pages=1_ panel to you.


> Based on what?  Going by this logic, the power of naruto's FRS increases with the amount of chakra arms he uses, so he can level up his FRS 6 fold since he only used 3 chakra arms.


your argument doesnt even hold. you are bringing up bad analogies and asking for proof that sasukes LVL 4 susano is stronger than his LVL 3 susano. absolute nonsense.


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no it isnt. his lvl 4 susano is the strongest thing he has shown.


But you aren't comparing his susanoo to naruto, you're comparing his ATTACK to Naruto's ATTACK, thus the lvl of susanoo is irrelevant, its only the power of his attack that is, thus the arrow is the strongest thing he has shown.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> clones havent been shown to use COFRS.


KCM clones have been shown to do everything the original can do




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> so kishi just had naruto use a seal right before using the tech for the lulz?


Naruto did something else with his seal since it is not required for rasengans.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> wait nevermind. it took naruto 3 pages to form COFRS and it took sasuke one panel to form an enton arrow.


Nope, it took Naruto 2 panels to make COFRS



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> i need feats for the bold.


then I need feats for Sasuke being able to use a stronger attack than the big enton arrow with his lvl4 susanoo.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> LOL at COFRS being equal to enton arrows in preparation. i guess_ 3 pages=1_ panel to you.


2 panels is all it took to make COFRS, and from that page, it took sasuke 3 pages before he could fire the arrow.  So once again 2 panels >>>> 3 pages, and thus




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> your argument doesnt even hold.* you are bringing up bad analogies *and asking for proof that sasukes LVL 4 susano is stronger than his LVL 3 susano. absolute nonsense.


Bolded is a baseless assertion, if you want to say I'm bringing up bad analogies, then show how I am doing so.  My analogies are actually using the exact same logic that you are using:
lvl3 susanoo = enton arrow.  enton arrow = COFRS.  COFRS = 3 chakra arms.  Thus if lvl4 susanoo > lvl3 susanoo = enton arrow then 4,5,6,7,8,9 chakra arms > 3 chakra arms = COFRS.

You can't have your cake and eat it sir, you can't give sasuke the arbitrary attack power increase, yet say naruto doesn't get it.

I never said Sasuke's lvl4 susanoo isn't stronger than its lvl3, I think its physically stronger, i think its definitely more durable, however, you are comparing the giant enton arrow it used in lvl3 to COFRS, thus unless you can show that lvl4 susanoo has a stronger attack than the giant enton arrow, then it does not follow that lvl4 susanoo would produce a stronger attack.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 22, 2013)

Someone got owned.


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## Rain (Jun 22, 2013)

Sasuke murderstomps. Whoever disagrees should just stop reading the manga and go watch some mlp.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 22, 2013)

Sasuke wins.

Any FRS bar the Chou Oodama variant is tanked with no damage by Sasuke's lvl 4 EMS Susanoo as Kirin, a much stronger attack, was blocked by Itachi's V2 (Skeletal, not Ribcage) Susanoo. 

The Chou Oodama variant already has a canon counter. (Enton) As Fire>Wind.

Any other attack like Mini TBB or any Rasengan variant has no chance in hell when it comes to breaking through Susanoo. 

Eventually Naruto succumbs to Enton spam or Kirin kills him.


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Sasuke wins.
> 
> Any FRS bar the Chou Oodama variant is tanked with no damage by Sasuke's lvl 4 EMS Susanoo as Kirin, a much stronger attack, was blocked by Itachi's V2 (Skeletal, not Ribcage) Susanoo.


Kirin isn't a much stronger attack than , Itachi didn't use a skeletal to block it since he can* instantly erect lvl3*, and Danzou's *fuuton blew open the back of a lvl3.*  At best, any more than 2 FRS and Susanoo + its user is gone.



KeyofMiracles said:


> The Chou Oodama variant already has a canon counter. (Enton) As Fire>Wind.


not if its used from multiple angles



KeyofMiracles said:


> Any other attack like Mini TBB or any Rasengan variant has no chance in hell when it comes to breaking through Susanoo.


based on what?  *Bijuurasengan* is at the very least as powerful as a FRS



KeyofMiracles said:


> Eventually Naruto succumbs to Enton spam or Kirin kills him.


nah, sasuke gets met with 13 guided FRS from different angles killing him and his susanoo.  Kirin is easily countered by FRS.


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## Panther (Jun 22, 2013)

The notion that Sasuke can counter KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS with an Enton arrow is ridiculous. Sasuke's arrow did't show the power to change the course of the Chou Odama FRS, if anything Sasuke will have to deal with an Enton covered Chou Odama FRS heading his way.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 22, 2013)

Panther said:


> *The notion that Sasuke can counter KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS with an Enton arrow is ridiculous. *Sasuke's arrow did't show the power to change the course of the Chou Odama FRS, if anything Sasuke will have to deal with an Enton covered Chou Odama FRS heading his way.



Its ridiculous yet the manga showed its possible? lmfao, ok then. I suggest you go re-read a few of these chapters here before making any more posts about Chou FRS vs Enton.

Fire eats up Wind and becomes stronger. Manga fact.

Did you see the FRS explode when it hit the Juubi? No. Because it was consumed by the flames.

Once the flames hit the FRS, it becomes pure flames and nothing else.


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## Panther (Jun 22, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Its ridiculous yet the manga showed its possible? lmfao, ok then. I suggest you go re-read a few of these chapters here before making any more posts about Chou FRS vs Enton.
> 
> Fire eats up Wind and becomes stronger. Manga fact.
> 
> ...


 did you read the rest of my post aside from the bolden ? Because of not then i suggest you re-read it.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 22, 2013)

Panther said:


> did you read the rest of my post aside from the bolden ? Because of not then i suggest you re-read it.



Did you read all of my post? Cause it addressed all of your post. The FRS becomes Enton so there is no FRS coming towards him, just black flames that Sasuke can manipulate at will, or simply block with Susanoo.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kirin isn't a much stronger attack than , Itachi didn't use a skeletal to block it since he can* instantly erect lvl3*, and Danzou's *fuuton blew open the back of a lvl3.*  At best, any more than 2 FRS and Susanoo + its user is gone.


You're comparing Kirin that obliterated a Mountain Sized building to FRS by giving me a scan of it cutting through rocks and kicking up dirt? We've seen FRS's explosive power, and it doesn't match up to Kirin, unless you think FRS can blow up a Mountain Sized building.

Why not use a scan where we can clearly see the size of FRS's explosion?

We clearly see the Susanoo that reappears once Itachi gets up, and it was his V2, not his V3.
*fuuton blew open the back of a lvl3.*
I don't see how him being able to erect V3 Susanoo instantly gives you any kind of evidence showing he used it.

Danzo's Fuuton that was massively amplified by Baku's suction (That was already strong enough by itself to restrain Susanoo and stop it from moving) opened a hole in the back of Susanoo.




> not if its used from multiple angles


Enton shield lets him protect himself from all angles so if FRS touches it, it gets consumed by the flames and becomes a giant mass of black flame.



> based on what?  *Bijuurasengan* is at the very least as powerful as a FRS


Based on the fact Susanoo has blocked much stronger attacks than Rasengan variants and Mini TBB. 

Where do you get Bijuu Rasengan being as powerful from FRS from? Naruto opting to use it when FRS failed doesn't mean the attacks are on par, why are you even including an attack Naruto hasn't used yet in this match up as its power is unknown?





> nah, sasuke gets met with 13 guided FRS from different angles killing him and his susanoo.  *Kirin is easily countered by FRS.*



Or he coats his Susanoo with Enton flames so when FRS touches it, it gets consumed by the flames instead of exploding (Like it did in the manga)

 Kirin being countered by an attack weaker than it? An attack that Naruto can't even use to counter Kirin, unless you think Naruto can make and throw FRS before Sasuke launches Kirin (Which moves as fast as lightning) down at him?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> then post the scan of this offensive attack that is greater than his huge enton arrow.







> just like Sasuke's lvl4 susanoo hasn't shown anything above enton arrow.






> Why is that so? COFRS requires no seals, so there's no reason why naruto would have to make a seal for that jutsu.  In addition to that, Gamakichi doesn't even know naruto has COFRS, yet he tells him to "make the seal".  So it can't be for COFRS


naruto makes a handseal then starts forming COFRS. there wouldve been no need for that if he didnt need seals.



> Nope, i've shown you that it only took 2 panels, and Naruto was ready to throw his attack and had to wait 3 pages for sasuke to load his arrow and fire it.


naruto makes the seal for COFRS.


2 pages later naruto finishes. sasuke is still fighting through juubi clones:


in the top left panel, sasukes begins to prep an arrow and the arrow is ready to fire by the middle panel. that 1 panel prep:






> your link isn't working.  however, I'm guessing its the scan of sasuke firing enton magatama at white zetsu which would work in favor of my argument that his attack power doesn't increase with upper level susanoos since he does the exact same thing with just skeletal susanoo.


that isnt any different than itachi wielding the yata mirror in V3 susano despite it only manifesting it in V4. sasuke merely didnt deconstruct the enton orb as he deconstructed the rest of his susano.


> In addition to that, the parallel of sasuke beating white zetsu works even more against you since *naruto beat a  larger number of white zetsu* while using not even requiring FRS.


thats not a parallel. nowhere did i parallel naruto and sasukes feats against the zetsus.




> nope, Naruto waited for sasuke to fire his COFRS, if his arrow was ready to fire, he would have fired it.


sasuke didnt even begin prepping an arrow until naruto was done charing COFRS. 1 panel prep for arrow>3 pages of prep for COFRS.




> Once again no one's arguing that V4 Susanoo > V3 susanoo, you are arguing that V4 Susanoo has a stronger OFFENSIVE ATTACK than V3's strongest.  And thus if you say that Sasuke's v4 susanoo would allow him to use a more powerful enton attack, then you'd also have to say that naruto adding more chakra arms would allow him to produce a more powerful attack as well since we've seen that the power of FRS increases with the amount of chakra arms naruto uses.
> 
> You can't have your cake and eat it.


sasukes V4 susano allows him to use a stronger enton attack because we have seen him do such. you have no feats which support kcm naruto having anything greater than COFRS.




> The bolded is something you have to argue for, you can't just pressupose that.
> 
> A FP KCM Naruto uses flash shunshin, kage slaying clones, and bijuurasengan + FRS and a full powered EMS SAsuke uses V4 susanoo.
> 
> Once again, you can't have your cake and eat it.  If you want to make it a point to say sasuke didn't use a certain jutsu or level of jutsu, then you have to do the same for naruto.


FP kcm naruto=COFRS. you're gonna need proof for FP kcm naruto being everything you mentioned despite COFRS being>>>>>>>>everything you said.



> when did it produce a stronger attack?  Enton magatama spam against white zetsus?  By that logic, KCM Naruto using chakra arms and normal rasengans = V4 Susanoo.  And sasuke can use that same attack with skeletal susanoo, so that shows that it's not a stronger attack as he opted not to use it with his lvl3 susanoo.


the opponent that sasuke used it against is irrelevant. barrage of enton magatamas>1 enton arrow.


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> You're comparing Kirin that obliterated a Mountain Sized building to FRS by giving me a scan of it cutting through rocks and kicking up dirt? We've seen FRS's explosive power, and it doesn't match up to Kirin, unless you think FRS can blow up a Mountain Sized building.


I've given you a scan of FRS's explosion being larger than multiple mountains.  Those "rocks" that you are referencing are comparable to small mountains. 

If you want more proof that a FRS's explosion is multi-mountain level, Kurama was incapacitated by a FRS while SM COR barrage consisting of 25+ attacks that are stated to be able to hollow out a mountain only stunned Kurama.

So anyway you slice it, FRS is at least on the same level as kirin.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Why not use a scan where we can clearly see the size of FRS's explosion?


because that's not FRS's explosion, it's the wind sphere of FRS which is way way way more powerful than just a raw destructive explosion.  It's like you're saying a jinton cube is waaaaaay weaker than C2 since the AoE is much smaller.



KeyofMiracles said:


> We clearly see the Susanoo that reappears once Itachi gets up, and it was his V2, not his V3.
> small mountains.
> *I don't see how him being able to erect V3 Susanoo instantly gives you any kind of evidence showing he used it*.


So what if the susanoo that appears once itachi gets up is V2?  that just shows that itachi is leveling his susanoo up from that level which is to be expected since its the first time we've ever seen that technique before.  

Him being able to erect V3 susanoo instantly is compelling evidence that shows he AT LEAST used it as he was up against a gigantic attack the likes of which itachi doesn't know how powerful.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Danzo's Fuuton that was massively amplified by Baku's suction (That was already strong enough by itself to restrain Susanoo and stop it from moving) opened a hole in the back of Susanoo.


It wasn't MASSIVELY amplified, does *Sasuke's fireball* look MASSIVELY amplified to you?  And even with the amplification, it's still not even close to the power of a FRS.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Enton shield lets him protect himself from all angles so if FRS touches it, it gets consumed by the flames and becomes a giant mass of black flame.


Where's the enton shields at?  On his susanoo?  That's not enough time for the enton to turn the FRS into pure enton before it explodes.




KeyofMiracles said:


> Based on the fact Susanoo has blocked much stronger attacks than Rasengan variants and Mini TBB.


Lol like what?  Getting blown open by danzou's fuuton, cracked by tsunade, casually chopped by Ei?  Getting disintegrated at an unknown stage by Kirin?  What is Susanoo's best durability feat to date?



KeyofMiracles said:


> Where do you get Bijuu Rasengan being as powerful from FRS from? *Naruto opting to use it when FRS failed doesn't mean the attacks are on par, why are you even including an attack Naruto hasn't used yet in this match up as its power is unknown?*


The bold is concessionary dishonesty on your part.

If Naruto sees FRS fail, there's no reason for him to attempt an attack that's WEAKER than FRS on Sandaime raikage, especially an attack as chakra-taxing as a bijuurasengan.

And Naruto has the 8:2 chakra ratio down, so he has the ability to make bijuurasengans of the size he attempted.  If the only argument you have is "he hasn't done it yet" then sasuke doesn't get the ability to shield his susanoo in enton if its not ribcage since "he hasn't done it yet".






KeyofMiracles said:


> Or he coats his Susanoo with Enton flames so when FRS touches it, it gets consumed by the flames instead of exploding (Like it did in the manga)


It didn't get instantly consumed so it explodes before it turns into pure enton, and the level of attacks have to be equal in order for fire to take over wind.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Kirin being countered by an attack weaker than it? An attack that Naruto can't even use to counter Kirin, unless you think Naruto can make and throw FRS before Sasuke launches Kirin (Which moves as fast as lightning) down at him?


 

How long does it take sasuke to prep kirin?   What does kirin look like while it's getting prepped?  Why does naruto have to only start preping a FRS once sasuke has 10 page-prep kirin ready to fire?

And no, FRS has the elemental advantage, as long as both attacks are on the same level as in FRS isn't way weaker than Kirin, Kirin gets canceled out.


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## Panther (Jun 22, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Did you read all of my post? Cause it addressed all of your post. The FRS becomes Enton so there is no FRS coming towards him


 Like i said the Enton arrow doesn't stop the Chou Odama FRS from heading into Sasuke's direction. It only changes the FRS nature transformation from wind to fire.



> *just black flames* that Sasuke can manipulate at will, or simply block with Susanoo.


 not rly, more like an giant ass Enton shuriken heading into Sasuke's direction at the same speed of a hypersonic FRS which Sasuke won't have time to manipulate. 

Edit: As for stopping it with his Susanoo. I can only see him tanking it with a lvl3 Susanoo and above seeing as Amaterasu tends to burn trough chakra and Chou Odama FRS covered in Enton is almost as big as the plant or whatever it is on it's back which is a couple of times bigger then Sasuke's Susanoo, with that kind of enton size it should burn fast trough Sasuke's Susanoo. Sasuke would need to reduce the flames so that it doesn't burn trough his Susanoo which would leave him briefly open from getting attacked by Naruto and his KCM clones seeing as he will be concentrating on the flames.


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## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

why is that attack more powerful than an big enton arrow?




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto makes a handseal then starts forming COFRS. there wouldve been no need for that if he didnt need seals.


except we know any FRS does not require handseals so it had to have been for something else.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto makes the seal for COFRS.
> 
> 
> 2 pages later naruto finishes. sasuke is still fighting through juubi clones:
> ...


except FRS or any rasengans don't require handseals and gamakichi doesn't know about COFRS so the handseals couldn't have been for that jutsu.
Thus it only takes naruto the two panels we've seen on the second page you've posted to make the technique, while it takes sasuke 3 pages to prep and load the arrow for launch.





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> that isnt any different than itachi wielding the yata mirror in V3 susano despite it only manifesting it in V4. sasuke merely didnt deconstruct the enton orb as he deconstructed the rest of his susano.


Yata mirror is a spiritual item, enton orb is an actual jutsu made by kagutsuchi, so no they are very different and incomparable.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> thats not a parallel. nowhere did i parallel naruto and sasukes feats against the zetsus.


Of course that's a parallel.  If you parallel naruto and sasuke's feats against the juubi, then you have to parallel their feats against other opponents just as well.  They both make the debut of their new powers against zetsus, and sasuke debuts his lvl4 susanoo against zetsus while naruto debuts his rasengan variants and charka arms against zetsus.  

You can't have your cake and eat it, parallels work both ways not just for sasuke.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasuke didnt even begin prepping an arrow until naruto was done charing COFRS. 1 panel prep for arrow>3 pages of prep for COFRS.


The prep is not just creating the arrow, its loading and firing it, Sasuke needed 3 pages to do all of that, Naruto made COFRS in 2 panels.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasukes V4 susano allows him to use a stronger enton attack because we have seen him do such. you have no feats which support kcm naruto having anything greater than COFRS.


When did V4 susanoo allow him to use a stronger enton attack?  You mean the enton attack that was paralleled to chakra arm and rasengan variants?  You mean the enton attack that skeletal susanoo could fire?  You mean the attack that killed a bunch of white zetsu?   Yeah, no.

And Bijuurasengan in addition to more chakra arms = stronger FRS is a feat that would suggest Naruto has jutsu stronger than COFRS.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> FP kcm naruto=COFRS.


Baseless assertion, support your assertion with an argument.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you're gonna need proof for FP kcm naruto being everything you mentioned *despite COFRS being>>>>>>>>everything you said*.


Bolded is also a baseless assertion.  You can't presuppose your own assertion, you have to back them up with an argument.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the opponent that sasuke used it against is irrelevant. *barrage of enton magatamas>1 enton arrow.*


It's completely relevant since your entire argument is based on drawing parallels, thus unless you want to be guilty of a double standard, you have to include ALL parallels not just the ones you like.  

And the bolded is a baseless assertion, what feats or arguments do you have that back up that assertion?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> why is that attack more powerful than an big enton arrow?


because theres more enton. its that simple.




> except we know any FRS does not require handseals so it had to have been for something else.


naruto makes a seal then uses frs. the seal is for COFRS.



> *except FRS or any rasengans don't require handseals* and gamakichi doesn't know about COFRS so the handseals couldn't have been for that jutsu.
> Thus it only takes naruto the two panels we've seen on the second page you've posted to make the technique, while it takes sasuke 3 pages to prep and load the arrow for launch.



except in the case of COFRS where naruto was canonically shown making a seal beforehand. i dont know why this is so hard for you to accept. naruto used no jutsu other than COFRS therefore, the seal was for COFRS.




> Yata mirror is a spiritual item, enton orb is an actual jutsu made by kagutsuchi, so no they are very different and incomparable.


irrelevant. itachi has only manifested the yata mirror in V4 susano. sasuke has only manifested the enton orb and shot out magatamas using V4 susano.



> Of course that's a parallel.  If you parallel naruto and sasuke's feats against the juubi, then you have to parallel their feats against other opponents just as well.  They both make the debut of their new powers against zetsus, and sasuke debuts his lvl4 susanoo against zetsus while naruto debuts his rasengan variants and charka arms against zetsus.


the parallel wasnt against the juubi. it was their techniques. if you want to argue that way, kishi paralleled sasukes V4 susano with BM naruto since he showed sasuke using it after naruto used BM for the 1st time.


> You can't have your cake and eat it, parallels work both ways not just for sasuke.



not really. you are making up your own parallels instead of using the scans where they are fighting alongside each other.



> The prep is not just creating the arrow, its loading and firing it, Sasuke needed 3 pages to do all of that, Naruto made COFRS in 2 panels.


so basically, it takes naruto 3 pages to fire COFRS after creating it. thanks for the confirmation.




> When did V4 susanoo allow him to use a stronger enton attack?  You mean the enton attack that was paralleled to chakra arm and rasengan variants?  You mean the enton attack that skeletal susanoo could fire?  You mean the attack that killed a bunch of white zetsu?   Yeah, no.


sasukes V4 susano has more enton in its attacks than his V3 susano so its stronger. its that simple. the opponents sasuke and naruto face is irrelevant.


> And Bijuurasengan in addition to more chakra arms = stronger FRS is a feat that would suggest Naruto has jutsu stronger than COFRS.


no it doesnt. COFRS is the strongest jutsu that kcm naruto has shown, so thats his full power until shown otherwise.




> Baseless assertion, support your assertion with an argument.
> 
> 
> Bolded is also a baseless assertion.  You can't presuppose your own assertion, you have to back them up with an argument.


COFRS=strongest jutsu that kcm naruto has shown, so its his full power.



> It's completely relevant since your entire argument is based on drawing parallels, thus unless you want to be guilty of a double standard, you have to include ALL parallels not just the ones you like.


except, what you're saying arent parallels. anyway, by your logic, kishi paralleled sasukes V4 susano with BM naruto.


> And the bolded is a baseless assertion, what feats or arguments do you have that back up that assertion?


sasukes V4 susano has produced more enton that his V3 susano. simple. potency of katon is determined by the sheer quantity of flames.


----------



## ZE (Jun 22, 2013)

The strongest jutsu kcm Naruto has shown is taiju kage bushin, with each clone being strong enough to defeat kage, which makes them kage level. 
Fighting Naruto=fighting 13 kage level bushins, plus the original.
FRS, mini bijuu dama etc. that's just a complement.


----------



## Chad (Jun 22, 2013)

When will people realize that FRS is not breaking through Susanoo? No matter the amount.

Skeleton Susanoo has enough tanking feats to tank multiple FRS. Final Susanoo is not even getting scratched by one.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> because theres more enton. its that simple.


except its not that simple since Sasuke has used way more enton when he amaterasu'd bee.   And even then, it's not more enton, the arrow was larger than all of those magatamas combined.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto makes a seal then uses frs. the seal is for COFRS.


concession accepted as this is the third time your bringing up a defeated point.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except in the case of COFRS where naruto was canonically shown making a seal beforehand. i dont know why this is so hard for you to accept. naruto used no jutsu other than COFRS therefore, the seal was for COFRS.


Concession accepted again since this is the third time you are bringing up a defeated point.  




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *irrelevant.* itachi has only manifested the yata mirror in V4 susano. sasuke has only manifested the enton orb and shot out magatamas using V4 susano.


the bolded is a baseless assertion, unless you provide reasoning for why it's irrelevant then its a concession on your part.

The unbolded is flat out false as sasuke has used the enton orb without having to erect V4 while fighting kabuto.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the parallel wasnt against the juubi. it was their techniques.


what about their techniques?  Why are their techniques paralleled?  

And the parallel isn't just because they are using it to defeat zetsus, its because their DEBUT of their powers (KCM and EMS) was against a small army of zetsus which each practically solod.  So the parallel still stands unless you want to revoke ur parallel u are trying to draw with their techniques.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> if you want to argue that way, kishi paralleled sasukes V4 susano with BM naruto since he showed sasuke using it after naruto used BM for the 1st time.


In no way shape or form did kishi parallel sasuke's V4 susanoo with BM Naruto as BM Naruto made his debut against the 5 neo pain bijuus that could spam mountain busters while V4 susanoo made its debut against.... 10 white zetsus that KCM Naruto was fodderizing when he made his first debut.

By your logic, Kishi paralleled sasuke's V4 susanoo to SM Naruto since he showed Sasuke using it before Naruto even used KCM.  So by your logic, SM Naruto = V4 Susanoo Sasuke.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> not really. you are making up your own parallels instead of using the scans where they are fighting alongside each other.


Baseless assertion.  By that logic, why should I or anyone accept the scans where they aer fighting alongside each other as parallels?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> so basically, it takes naruto 3 pages to fire COFRS after creating it. thanks for the confirmation.


so pretty much you have to ignore my arguments in order for you to generate material to type.  That's a tacit concession on your part, which I accept.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasukes V4 susano has more enton in its attacks than his V3 susano so its stronger. its that simple.* the opponents sasuke and naruto face is irrelevant.*



Bolded is a baseless assertion, unbolded is falsified by sasuke using much larger enton without even using susanoo, and the fact that his V4 susanoo HASN'T used more enton in its attacks.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no it doesnt. COFRS is the strongest jutsu that kcm naruto has shown, so thats his full power until shown otherwise.


Concession accepted as this is the third time you are trying to make the dishonest claim that strongest attack = full power.  In order for you to show that COFRS is KCM NAruto's strongest attack, you'd have to prove that he can't have any clones out, use flash shunshin, or bijuudama in order to use that attack, and that COFRS would be more effective than all of those abilities against a single opponent. And of course by your logic, of V4 susanoo > V3 susanoo, a rasnegan powered by 4-9 chakra arms >>>>> COFRS so it's not naruto's full power.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> COFRS=strongest jutsu that kcm naruto has shown, so its his full power.


once again, concession accepted as strongest jutsu =/= full power, that would just mean naruto is using his strongest offensive jutsu.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except, what you're saying arent parallels. _*anyway, by your logic, kishi paralleled sasukes V4 susano with BM naruto*_.


unbolded is a baseless assertion and thus a concession.
Bolded would parallel V4 Susanoo to SM Naruto.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasukes V4 susano has produced more enton that his V3 susano. simple. potency of katon is determined by the sheer quantity of flames.


Except that's completely and utterly false as sasuke's amaterasu against bee made more enton than anything he's done in V4, and his V4 magatam spam in no way is more enton than his giant susanoo arrow he used on zetsu.

In addition to that, if you are on parallels, then if COFRS is KCM NAruto's strongest attack, then Enton arrow is EMS Sasuke's strongest attack since you draw the parallels.  You can't have your cake and eat it, double standards is all your arguments have.  that and repeating defeated points.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> When will people realize that FRS is not breaking through Susanoo? No matter the amount.
> 
> Skeleton Susanoo has enough tanking feats to tank multiple FRS. Final Susanoo is not even getting scratched by one.



When will people realize that *a Fuuton that's not even close to the strength of FRS* blew open the back of a V3 susanoo which means any susanoo that isn't V4 is getting erased by a FRS?


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## Chad (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> When will people realize that *a Fuuton that's not even close to the strength of FRS* blew open the back of a V3 susanoo which means any susanoo that isn't V4 is getting erased by a FRS?



Your interpretation is that Susanoo was split open by Baku because of it's durability, which is completely wrong. Baku's vacuum style futon is different than a normal futon like FRS. Vacuum's cause the Susanoo to lose stability and split open, thus why Susanoos arms had to grab hold of the bridge. Naruto's FRS is just a simple futon that doesn't cause Susanoo to lose stability. You can't compare Baku to FRS because their Futon attack is completely different. You can't compare Baku to FRS because ABC logic does not work in Naruto.

-snip-, he isn't as strong as you think. Besides, I never said Sasuke will win. Naruto actually wins with High Difficulty with feats. I'm just implying that FRS is not the way to Naruto's victory.


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## Krippy (Jun 22, 2013)

Could go either way depending on how durable Sasuke's Susano'o is. And LOL at whoever said that an FRS that's been enveloped with Enton will hurt Sasuke or hit him before he can react.


----------



## ZE (Jun 22, 2013)

Krippy said:


> *Could go either way depending on how durable Sasuke's Susano'o is*. And LOL at whoever said that an FRS that's been enveloped with Enton will hurt Sasuke or hit him before he can react.



This is basically all it needs to be said.
But apart from that, it will also depend on how much time Sasuke can keep Susanoo activated. He didn't use it much against Kabuto, and he has only started using it against the Jyuubi.


----------



## Chad (Jun 22, 2013)

Naruto forming FRS is actually a bad choice for Naruto as Sasuke could just ignite it with Amaterasu lol.

I don't think Naruto is fast enough to dodge an Amaterasu+FRS explosion at point blank range.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Your interpretation is that Susanoo was split open by Baku because of it's durability, which is completely wrong. Baku's vacuum style futon is different than a normal futon like FRS. Vacuum's cause the Susanoo to lose stability and split open, thus why Susanoos arms had to grab hold of the bridge.


That in no way shape or form even suggests that the suction destabalizes susanoo, all it suggests is that it sucks the entire construct into baku which is why susanoo had to hold on to the bridge in order to not get sucked in.  If it did destabalize susanoo, we would see susanoo reverting to skeletal before Danzou blasted it with his fuuton, yet the entire construct is completely solid and the only damage done to it was via his fuuton.



Bluenote said:


> Naruto's FRS is just a simple futon that doesn't cause Susanoo to lose stability. You can't compare Baku to FRS because their Futon attack is completely different. You can't compare Baku to FRS because ABC logic does not work in Naruto.


ABC logic doesn't work in naruto for overall matchups like Shinobi A vs shinobi B, not attack A to attack B when both attacks are direct attacks.

And no one is comparing baku to FRS, we are comparing the baku-enhanced fuuton from DANZOU to FRS, that's the thing that blew open the back of susanoo, not baku's suction.  That's why FRS blows up V3 susanoo because even with baku's enhancement aiding danzou's attack.




Bluenote said:


> Get off Naruto's wang lol, he isn't as strong as you think. Besides, I never said Sasuke will win. Naruto actually wins with High Difficulty with feats. I'm just implying that FRS is not the way to Naruto's victory.


Hold on, the guy who says that FRS can't even scratch susanoo when danzou's fuuton blew open V3 susanoo is saying that I'm on naruto's wang?  

If you seriously weren't biased, then you would also notice that even if you were able to throw out the comparison between danzou's fuuton and naruto's FRS, you still haven't given an argument for why Susanoo can withstand FRS without a scratch.


----------



## richard lewis (Jun 22, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Sasuke wins.
> 
> Any FRS bar the Chou Oodama variant is tanked with no damage by Sasuke's lvl 4 EMS Susanoo as Kirin, a much stronger attack, was blocked by Itachi's V2 (Skeletal, not Ribcage) Susanoo.
> 
> ...



#1 - how did you come to the conclusion that kirin > FRS?

I think your taking the manga a little to seriously/out of context..... tsunade's punch was able to crack skeletal susanoo and FRS is surely more powerful than tsunade's punch, and a giant FRS is surely more powerful than a regular FRS so going by your logic a giant FRS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kirin and hince could potentially damage susanoo.

However whats more likely as that during the itachi fight the author was thinking about all of this stuff so he just introduced susanoo and all of its lvl's after blocking kirin w/o intending to prove which lvl is stronger or whatever.

Either way even if susanoo can take a giant FRS that doesn't meant it could tank a dozen of them. and even if it could tank that naruto can still simply outlast sasuke. As I seriously doubt he can keep susanoo active as long as naruto can keep his RM shroud active.


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## Chad (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That in no way shape or form even suggests that the suction destabalizes susanoo, all it suggests is that it sucks the entire construct into baku which is why susanoo had to hold on to the bridge in order to not get sucked in.  If it did destabalize susanoo, we would see susanoo reverting to skeletal before Danzou blasted it with his fuuton, yet the entire construct is completely solid and the only damage done to it was via his fuuton.



Look HERE.

You can see that Susanoo is grabbing on to the ground. The next panel after that shows that it is indeed losing stability with the way it's standing, diagonally.



> And no one is comparing baku to FRS, we are comparing the baku-enhanced fuuton from DANZOU to FRS, that's the thing that blew open the back of susanoo, not baku's suction.  That's why FRS blows up V3 susanoo because even with baku's enhancement aiding danzou's attack


.

Danzo's futon =/= Danzos futon + Baku

Danzo's futon just helped the process of breaking Susanoos back. And I have already proven that just because Baku and Danzo can split open Susanoos spine, does not mean Naruto can.



> Hold on, the guy who says that FRS can't even scratch susanoo when danzou's fuuton blew open V3 susanoo is saying that I'm on naruto's wang?



If you wanna use ABC logic, then fine. I will too.



> If you seriously weren't biased, then you would also notice that even if you were able to throw out the comparison between danzou's fuuton and naruto's FRS, you still haven't given an argument for why Susanoo can withstand FRS without a scratch.



Final Susanoo > Skeleton Susanoo > Mountain Busting Kirin > Building Level FRS

Simple logic.

And I suggest you not use the word Bias in a vs thread that involves Naruto when you're the guy who has the Naruto avatar and signature and how you're the guy who thinks Naruto is some kind of god.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> except its not that simple since Sasuke has used way more enton when he amaterasu'd bee.   And even then, it's not more enton, the arrow was larger than all of those magatamas combined.


concession accepted for making baseless claims about sasukes enton arrow being bigger than ALL of sasukes V4 enton magatamas despite the obvious size difference between sasukes V4 and V3 susano.



> concession accepted as this is the third time your bringing up a defeated point.


concession accepted as you brought nothing to disprove my claim except "herp derp, the seal must have been for something else."



> Concession accepted again since this is the third time you are bringing up a defeated point.


refer to the above.




> the bolded is a baseless assertion, unless you provide reasoning for why it's irrelevant then its a concession on your part.


unless you can disprove that uchihas who use susano cant level down while retaining weapons from their final form susano which is something that the manga has shown, its a concession on your part.


> The unbolded is flat out false as sasuke has used the enton orb without having to erect V4 while fighting kabuto.


smaller enton orb. he didnt shoot any magatamas.



> what about their techniques?  Why are their techniques paralleled?


there was a scan saying that there techs had the same chakra ratios and they were on the same power level.


> And the parallel isn't just because they are using it to defeat zetsus, its because their DEBUT of their powers (KCM and EMS) was against a small army of zetsus which each practically solod.  So the parallel still stands unless you want to revoke ur parallel u are trying to draw with their techniques.


even going by your flawed logic, current evidence>older evidence. sasuke, while not using full power, was paralleled with FP kcm naruto



> By that logic, Kishi paralleled sasuke's V4 susanoo to SM Naruto since he showed Sasuke using it before Naruto even used KCM.  So by your logic, SM Naruto = V4 Susanoo Sasuke.


even by your flawed logic, current evidence>older evidence. kishi paralleled ems sasukes V4 susano with BM naruto.




> Baseless assertion.  By that logic, why should I or anyone accept the scans where they aer fighting alongside each other as parallels?


since, the time they show their power is more relevant to creating a parallel than who they use them against.



> so pretty much you have to ignore my arguments in order for you to generate material to type.  That's a tacit concession on your part, which I accept.


you are saying that it takes sasuke 3 pages to fire an arrow after forming it, so im saying that it takes naruto 3 pages to throw COFRS after forming it.





> Bolded is a baseless assertion, unbolded is falsified by sasuke using much larger enton without even using susanoo, and the fact that his V4 susanoo HASN'T used more enton in its attacks.


sasuke has used a bigger amaterasu. his enton manipulation with his susano is greatest with his V4 susano going by feats.



> Concession accepted as this is the third time you are trying to make the dishonest claim that strongest attack = full power. In order for you to show that COFRS is KCM NAruto's strongest attack, you'd have to prove that he can't have any clones out, use flash shunshin, or bijuudama in order to use that attack, and that COFRS would be more effective than all of those abilities against a single opponent. And of course by your logic, of V4 susanoo > V3 susanoo, a rasnegan powered by 4-9 chakra arms >>>>> COFRS so it's not naruto's full power.


by your logic, a single move can never be anyones full power. for madara, it would be PS+kunai and this is a contradiction to the manga and for hashirama, it would be shinsuusenju+kunai even though his full power is just shinsuusenju. the strongest thing in your arsenal is your full power.
V4 susano>V3 susano because all susano get stronger when they power up and the feats of sasukes V4 susano>his V3 susano. you have no feats suggesting naruto can make an frs stronger than the ones he has shown.
concession accepted for restating a defeated point.


> once again, concession accepted as strongest jutsu =/= full power, that would just mean naruto is using his strongest offensive jutsu.


concession accepted, for making up your own rules on how to judge power since someones strongest jutsu is their full power. rasengan is part 1 narutos full power, not rasengan+clones.



> unbolded is a baseless assertion and thus a concession.
> Bolded would parallel V4 Susanoo to SM Naruto.


even going by your logic, new evidence>old eveidence. ems sasuke at full power was paralleled with BM naruto.



> Except that's completely and utterly false as sasuke's amaterasu against bee made more enton than anything he's done in V4, and his V4 magatam spam in no way is more enton than his giant susanoo arrow he used on zetsu.


amaterasu=/=enton. by feats, sasukes flame manipulation with his susano is at its best with his V4 susano.


> In addition to that, if you are on parallels, then if COFRS is KCM NAruto's strongest attack, then Enton arrow is EMS Sasuke's strongest attack since you draw the parallels.  You can't have your cake and eat it, double standards is all your arguments have.  that and repeating defeated points.


enton arrow is ems ssasukes strongest attack, *when he isnt at full power*. concession accepted since you keep restating defeated points.


----------



## Krippy (Jun 22, 2013)

The highest calc I've seen for a standard FRS is 3 Megatons, while the highest for Kirin is 12 Megatons.

So yeah, unless you don't believe in calcs, Kirin has been stronger than FRS since it flattened a mile high hill.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 22, 2013)

Krippy said:


> The highest calc I've seen for a standard FRS is 3 Megatons, while the highest for Kirin is 12 Megatons.
> 
> So yeah, unless you don't believe in calcs, Kirin has been stronger than FRS since it flattened a mile high hill.



I don't believe in calcs, but even by feats, Kirin is still stronger in terms of sheer energy output because it's made from nature itself (Zetsu himself said that alone makes it a cut above most ninjutsu) and blew up the top of a mountain.


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## Chad (Jun 22, 2013)

Krippy said:


> The highest calc I've seen for a standard FRS is 3 Megatons, while the highest for Kirin is 12 Megatons.
> 
> So yeah, unless you don't believe in calcs, Kirin has been stronger than FRS since it flattened a mile high hill.



Some people will probably say that "Wind > Lightning due to Yamato's nature lesson, so that the calcs cancel each other out." Or something like that.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Look HERE.
> 
> You can see that Susanoo is grabbing on to the ground. The next panel after that shows that it is indeed losing stability with the way it's standing, diagonally.


and? wait how does Susanoo losing its footing = susanoo is losing durability?

.


Krippy said:


> Danzo's futon =/= Danzos futon + Baku
> 
> Danzo's futon just helped the process of breaking Susanoos back. And I have already proven that just because Baku and Danzo can split open Susanoos spine, does not mean Naruto can.


reread my post, I stated that danzou's fuuton enhanced by baku's suction is breaking apart susanoo's back.  

In no way shape or for have you in any way proven that danzou's baku-powered up attack blowing susanoo open means naruto's can't, you haven't even given a positive argument for that.




Bluenote said:


> If you wanna use ABC logic, then fine. I will too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol so much wrong with this.

1)  if you want to use A>B>C logic, then you'd have to accept FRS > Danzous fuuton > susanoo
2) Your argument presupposes that Itachi's skeleton susanoo is what he used to block kirin
3) Your argument is falsified by the manga as Kirin vaporized susanoo and burned itachi, thus mountain-busting kirin should be > Skeleton susanoo
4) FRS is in no way building level.  When it explodes, , and it even has more power than 25+ SM COR each powerful enough to  hollow out a mountain.

So no, even if we presuppose that itachi took kirin with a skeletal susanoo (which are falsified by other durability feats of Susanoo) FRS still destroys it.





Bluenote said:


> And I suggest you not use the word Bias in a vs thread that involves Naruto when you're the guy who has the Naruto avatar and signature and how you're the guy who thinks Naruto is some kind of god.


Please oh please, just because Naruto is one of my favorite characters doesn't mean I am biased, only the arguments or logic that my arguments cater to would show if I am biased or not.  And that's exactly what i use to back up my statement that you are biased: with one of your arguments claiming that skeletal susanoo won't even get scratched by a FRS.



Krippy said:


> The highest calc I've seen for a standard FRS is 3 Megatons, while the highest for Kirin is 12 Megatons.
> 
> So yeah, unless you don't believe in calcs, Kirin has been stronger than FRS since it flattened a mile high hill.





Bluenote said:


> Some tards will probably say that "Wind > Lightning due to Yamato's nature lesson, so that the calcs cancel each other out." Or something like that.



Can you link me to the 3 megaton calc?  I've honestly only seen 700+ kilotons for FRS's upper limit.  Anyways if you guys want to go the calc route, then you'll also have to concede that FRS destroys susanoo quite easily as oonoki and muu's combined jinton lasers only produce a yield of 20 kilotons.


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## Chad (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> and? wait how does Susanoo losing its footing = susanoo is losing durability?



If Susanoo is not stable, then it becomes considerably weaker. But I don't think Naruto has any way to take advantage of this weakness.



> FRS is in no way building level.  When it explodes, ,



Ok, I'll stop arguing with you here. My innards are hurting from laughter.

If Naruto's FRS is multi-mountain level, then it just gives Sasuke can exploit that as he could ignite it with Ama. Though it obviously isn't multi mountain level.


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## Bonly (Jun 22, 2013)

To keep it short and sweet I believe KCM Naruto would win more times then not. Naruto has better feats then Sasuke does so far as well as has been portrayed as the stronger of the two while Kishi is going to try and play catch up with Sasuke. Naruto's main problem would be getting through Sasuke's higher level Susanoo which hasn't taken much damage so its hard to say how much damage it would take to get through.


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## Krippy (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Can you link me to the 3 megaton calc?  I've honestly only seen 700+ kilotons for FRS's upper limit.  Anyways if you guys want to go the calc route, then you'll also have to concede that FRS destroys susanoo quite easily as oonoki and muu's combined jinton lasers only produce a yield of 20 kilotons.






some obd ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) reworked the old CT calc and raised FRS's speed and DC 

Sauce can erect and version of Susano'o he wants instantly these days, so I'm fairly certain the shield on his Final Susano'o will be useful.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted for making baseless claims about sasukes enton arrow being bigger than ALL of sasukes V4 enton magatamas despite the obvious size difference between sasukes V4 and V3 susano.


Concession accepted as sasuke shot out less than 11 enton magatams, none of which were as large as a human while his arrow was longer than a boss summon (since it was as wide as COFRS).



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted as you brought nothing to disprove my claim except "herp derp, the seal must have been for something else."
> 
> 
> refer to the above.


yep, you know you've conceded as I've not only disproved your claim, but i've shown it's impossible for it to be true.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> unless you can disprove that uchihas who use susano cant level down while retaining weapons from their final form susano which is something that the manga has shown, its a concession on your part.


nope, that's something that you've argued



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> smaller enton orb. he didnt shoot any magatamas.


irrelevant, unless you can show he can't fire magatamas out of that orb, the point stands as your entire argument was based on him not being able to make an enton orb while in lower levels.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> there was a scan saying that there techs had the same chakra ratios and they were on the same power level.


And?  why should that 



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> even going by your flawed logic, current evidence>older evidence. sasuke, while not using full power, was paralleled with FP kcm naruto


nope, that's only if you can prove that what you are trying to argue via the current evidence is true.  Thus the only thing that you'd show is true is that enton arrow = COFRS by hype, not that lvl3 Sasuke = KCM NAruto.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> even by your flawed logic, current evidence>older evidence. kishi paralleled ems sasukes V4 susano with BM naruto.


unless you think that 10 white zetsus = 5 neo pain bijuus, this in no way follows.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> since, the time they show their power is more relevant to creating a parallel than who they use them against.


in no way shape or form is this true.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you are saying that it takes sasuke 3 pages to fire an arrow after forming it, so im saying that it takes naruto 3 pages to throw COFRS after forming it.


So you concede that it takes naruto only 2 panels to make COFRS? good.  And nope, Naruto had COFRS formed and ready to throw 3 pages before sasuke was ready to fire his own technique.





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasuke has used a bigger amaterasu. his enton manipulation with his susano is greatest with his V4 susano going by feats.


Irrelevant since you said power of attack = size of enton.  And amaterasu = enton, thus it falsifies your logic that because he can fire a bigger enton in V4, it's more powerful.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> by your logic, a single move can never be anyones full power.


In no way shape or form is this true, my logic is that a single move isn't necessarily someone's full power since.  Your logic is that someon's full power HAS TO BE their strongest move.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> for madara, it would be PS+kunai and this is a contradiction to the manga and for hashirama, it would be shinsuusenju+kunai even though his full power is just shinsuusenju. the strongest thing in your arsenal is your full power.


Yet if Madara could make susanoo clones while using PS, would PS still be his full power, yet not PS + Susanoo clones?  If Hashirama could make sage clones while using shinsuusenju would shinsuu senjuu plus sage clones not be stronger than shinsuusenju?

And its not even the same for naruto since you aren't comparing a jutsu that functions as offense, defense and support, but simply a very powerful offensive jutsu, so that in no way shape or form means that it's naruto's full power.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *V4 susano>V3 susano because all susano get stronger when they power up and the feats of sasukes V4 susano>his V3 susano.* you have no feats suggesting naruto can make an frs stronger than the ones he has shown.
> concession accepted for restating a defeated point.


Bolded is flat out falsified by the manga, unbolded is proven true by Naruto using a chakra arm to power up his FRS, thus more chakra arms = more powerful rasengan.

So once again its a concession on your part.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted, for making up your own rules on how to judge power since someones strongest jutsu is their full power.* rasengan is part 1 narutos full power, not rasengan+clones.*


Bolded is flat out false and is concessionary on your part, since if Naruto can use rasengans and clones at the same time, then obviously Naruto w/ rasengan + clones > naruto w/ rasengan.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> even going by your logic, new evidence>old eveidence. ems sasuke at full power was paralleled with BM naruto.


New evidence > old evidence only if they directly contradict each other.  The new evidence only shows that COFRS = enton arrow, not that EMS Sasuke at full power is in anyway paralleled with BM NAruto.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> amaterasu=/=enton. by feats, sasukes flame manipulation with his susano is at its best with his V4 susano.


Amaterasu IS enton, enton are the flames, kagutsuchi is the manipulation of the flames.  You've stated that bigger enton = stronger enton, thus the flame manipulation is irrelevant. So its another concession on your part as you've contradicted your earlier criteria since I've forced you to do so by showing how your stance is untenable.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> enton arrow is ems ssasukes strongest attack, *when he isnt at full power*. concession accepted since you keep restating defeated points.


Concession accepted on this entire thread as you've basically just brought up defeated points.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> *If Susanoo is not stable, then it becomes considerably weaker.* But I don't think Naruto has any way to take advantage of this weakness.


What is the bolded based on?  Since when has susanoo ever become considerably weaker when losing its footing?





Bluenote said:


> Ok, I'll stop arguing with you here. My innards are hurting from laughter.


oh please, do share the laughs.  i want to know exactly what you find funny and why you find it funny.



Bluenote said:


> If Naruto's FRS is multi-mountain level, then it just gives Sasuke can exploit that as he could ignite it with Ama.


the explosion is multimountain level, not the technique itself.  Sure a direct blast of ama can light it on fire.



Bluenote said:


> Though it obviously isn't multi mountain level.


So you've got nothing to refute my arguments aside from "no you are wrong".  Well then thats a tacit concession on your part.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Concession accepted as sasuke shot out less than 11 enton magatams, *none of which were as large as a human* while his arrow was longer than a boss summon (since it was as wide as COFRS).



concession accepted for blatant dishonesty.



> yep, you know you've conceded as I've not only disproved your claim, but i've shown it's impossible for it to be true.


no you havent. all you said is "hurr durr, the seal was for something else." this is a concession on your part due to a lack of on panel evidence.




> nope, that's something that you've argued


you specifically said that sasuke didnt do this despite him manifesting the enton orb in its largest form and retaining it as he deconstructed his susano.



> irrelevant, unless you can show he can't fire magatamas out of that orb, the point stands as your entire argument was based on him not being able to make an enton orb while in lower levels.


there arent any feats of him doing this outside of his V4 susano. simple. im arguing from a feats and portrayal perspective. i dont use speculation. period.


> And?  why should that


what? the attacks of naruto and sasuke were directly compared. a casual attack from sasuke was stated to be equal to the best attack that kcm naruto has shown.



> nope, that's only if you can prove that what you are trying to argue via the current evidence is true.  Thus the only thing that you'd show is true is that enton arrow = COFRS by hype, not that lvl3 Sasuke = KCM NAruto.


the best attack that kcm naruto has is COFRS. a casual attack from sasuke is equal to that. anything below COFRS is fodder to sasuke who is only allowed to use V3 susano.



> unless you think that 10 white zetsus = 5 neo pain bijuus, this in no way follows.


im just using your logic. if you have a problem, reevaluate your stance and make up another argument* that actually coincides with the manga*.




> in no way shape or form is this true.


you talk about me making baseless claims and you say this? they have only been paralleled when fighting against or alongside each other.



> So you concede that it takes naruto only 2 panels to make COFRS? good.  And nope, Naruto had COFRS formed and ready to throw 3 pages before sasuke was ready to fire his own technique.


im just using your logic. naruto took 3 pages to throw COFRS so thats the amount of time he needs to wait before throwing it.





> Irrelevant since you said power of attack = size of enton.  And amaterasu = enton, thus it falsifies your logic that because he can fire a bigger enton in V4, it's more powerful.



sasuke has manipulated the biggest flames in V4 therefore, his flame manipulation with his V4 susano is the strongest.


> In no way shape or form is this true, my logic is that a single move isn't necessarily someone's full power since.  Your logic is that someon's full power HAS TO BE their strongest move.


which it does as that is basically what the manga has shown since the original naruto.



> Yet if Madara could make susanoo clones while using PS, would PS still be his full power, yet not PS + Susanoo clones?  If Hashirama could make sage clones while using shinsuusenju would shinsuu senjuu plus sage clones not be stronger than shinsuusenju?


if madara could use clones in PS, his full power would still be PS. if hashirama could use clones with shinsuusenju, his full power would still be shinsuusenju.


> And its not even the same for naruto since you aren't comparing a jutsu that functions as offense, defense and support, but simply a very powerful offensive jutsu, so that in no way shape or form means that it's naruto's full power.


its the strongest thing he has shown, so its his full power.



> Bolded is flat out falsified by the manga, unbolded is proven true by Naruto using a chakra arm to power up his FRS, thus more chakra arms = more powerful rasengan.
> 
> So once again its a concession on your part.


V4 susano>V3 susano is falsified by the manga? LOL. kcm naruto hasnt made anything stronger than COFRS so he cant do it. period.
this is pretty extreme wank, even by your standards. what you said is basically concessionary.



> Bolded is flat out false and is concessionary on your part, since if Naruto can use rasengans and clones at the same time, then obviously Naruto w/ rasengan + clones > naruto w/ rasengan.


FP part 1 naruto=rasengan=manga supported. full power part 1 base naruto equaled full power part 1 CS1 sasuke during their rasengan/chidori clash at VOTE.



> New evidence > old evidence only if they directly contradict each other.  The new evidence only shows that COFRS = enton arrow, not that EMS Sasuke at full power is in anyway paralleled with BM NAruto.


you said some trash about sm naruto=sasuke w/ V4 susano. sasuke was later portrayed as BM narutos equal later in the story thus the contradiction going by your logic.



> Amaterasu IS enton, enton are the flames, kagutsuchi is the manipulation of the flames.  You've stated that bigger enton = stronger enton, thus the flame manipulation is irrelevant. So its another concession on your part as you've contradicted your earlier criteria since I've forced you to do so by showing how your stance is untenable.


sasuke manipulated bigger flames with V4 susano than with V3 susano if you go by feats.
this again is a concession on your part.


> Concession accepted on this entire thread as you've basically just brought up defeated points.


concession accepted, as your arguments consist of blatant double standards, lying about what happened in the manga, etc.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted for blatant dishonesty.


the magatama in your scan isn't larger than a human, so it would be you who would be conceding the point due to dishonesty.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no you havent. all you said is "hurr durr, the seal was for something else." this is a concession on your part due to a lack of on panel evidence.


in no way was that my argument, thus a concession on your part since an ignored argument is a conceded one.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you specifically said that sasuke didnt do this despite him manifesting the enton orb in its largest form and retaining it as he deconstructed his susano.


yes, but you are the one who has to argue that because he maintained the enton orb, he can't manifest it in that form.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> there arent any feats of him doing this outside of his V4 susano. simple. im arguing from a feats and portrayal perspective. i dont use speculation. period.


wait hold on, I thought you were only arguing portrayal.  If you want to bring feats into this, then Naruto makes 13 KCM clones each equal to a kage and stomps feats-only sasuke period.  

And 'portrayal' in case you didn't know is all about speculation, its drawing parallels based on what you speculate but cannot prove kishi is trying to show.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> what? the attacks of naruto and sasuke were directly compared. *a casual attack from sasuke *was stated to be equal to the best attack that kcm naruto has shown.


That's the best attack that Sasuke has shown unless you can prove that enton magatama > susanoo arrow.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the best attack that kcm naruto has is COFRS. a casual attack from sasuke is equal to that. anything below COFRS is fodder to sasuke who is only allowed to use V3 susano.


And that casual attack form Sasuke is his best attack he has been shown to have just like Naruto's COFRS is his best attack, thus its only the power of both attacks that are being compared not the power of the attackers.  





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> im just using your logic. if you have a problem, reevaluate your stance and make up another argument* that actually coincides with the manga*.


I've shown you exactly how the parallels coincide with the manga.  KCM Naruto makes his debut against white zetsu squad, so does EMS Sasuke.  KCM Naruto uses new techniques that wipe out lots of enemies quickly, so does EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto officially learns about the details of the war in that chapter, so does EMS Sasuke.

On the other hand, your argument is simply, BM Naruto is introduced before lvl4 susanoo, therefore they are equals which in no way shape or form has anything to do with my parallels argument.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you talk about me making baseless claims and you say this?* they have only been paralleled when fighting against or alongside each other*.


bolded is a baseless assertion.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> im just using your logic. naruto took 3 pages to throw COFRS so thats the amount of time he needs to wait before throwing it.


Except i've shown you why he took 3 pages:  because he was waiting for Sasuke.  however you just simply ignore this over and over, which of course is a concession on your part since an ignored argument is a conceded one.






EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasuke has manipulated the biggest flames in V4 therefore, his flame manipulation with his V4 susano is the strongest.


not only is a giant arrow bigger than the magatama spam, but your argument isn't flame manipulation, it's size of enton, and thus unless you want to change your stance that size of enton =/= power of attack, your point is irrelevant.

Also, your statement is the exact parallel of naruto has used a bigger rasengan with more chakra arms, therefore his rasengans are more powerful with more chakra arms.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> which it does as that is basically what the manga has shown since the original naruto.


except that's straight up false.  If rasengan is naruto's strongest attack and Naruto can make 200 clones with rasengans, does that mean 200 clones with rasengans  = 1 naruto w/ rasengan?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> if madara could use clones in PS, his full power would still be PS. if hashirama could use clones with shinsuusenju, his full power would still be shinsuusenju.


So that means you actually believe that PS Madara + 25 susanoo clones = PS Madara w/o clones, or that SM Hashirama + 25 SM clones = SM Hashirama w/o clones.

if that's the kind of logic your stance has to cater to, then it's pretty much a concession on your part.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> its the strongest thing he has shown, so its his full power.


so deva path is just as strong as deva + 5 other paths because he has the strongest attack?
so if KCM Naruto's strongest attack was FRS, KCM Naruto w/o kagebunshin, flashshunshin, kuchiyose = KCM Naruto 

Yeah the things you have to argue for are indeed astounding.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> V4 susano>V3 susano is falsified by the manga? LOL. kcm naruto hasnt made anything stronger than COFRS so he cant do it. period.
> this is pretty extreme wank, even by your standards. what you said is basically concessionary.


Concessionary dishonesty on your part as you continue to attack strawmen by saying I'm talking about V4 susanoo vs V3 susanoo as a whole while I'm actually only talking about their offensive capabilities.

Sasuke hasn't ever made anything stronger than an enton arrow, so he can't do it, period.  If you want to say that V4 susanoo makes his enton attacks stronger then additional chakra arms makes narutos attack stronger.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> FP part 1 naruto=rasengan=manga supported. full power part 1 base naruto equaled full power part 1 CS1 sasuke during their rasengan/chidori clash at VOTE.


So you actually believe that part 1 naruto w/ clones restricted = part 1 naruto with clones.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you said some trash about sm naruto=sasuke w/ V4 susano.* sasuke was later portrayed as BM narutos equal later in the story thus the contradiction going by your logic.*


bolded is falsified by  the portrayal that V4 EMS Sasuke's susanoo = KCM Naruto when both made their debut fighting white zetsus.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasuke manipulated bigger flames with V4 susano than with V3 susano if you go by feats.
> this again is a concession on your part.


not only is that flat out false, but Naruto made a more powerful rasengan with more chakra arms if you go by feats.  So this again is a concession on your part.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted, as your arguments consist of blatant double standards, lying about what happened in the manga, etc.


The guy who has to argue that Naruto w/o clones = Naruto w clones has no right to make any accusations against the opposition. 

 You've consistently lied about manga scans, had to utilized double standards, and strawman my arguments.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm not sure where we've seen fūton: rasenshuriken produce damage anywhere near mountain level, let alone multi-mountain level. Chō fūton: rasenshuriken might be mountain level, but I doubt it's smaller version is. Mountain level is reserved for Bijū-dama level techniques, and rasenshuriken is obviously not depicted as the same level as a Bijū-dama explosion.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 22, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm not sure where we've seen fūton: rasenshuriken produce damage anywhere near mountain level, let alone multi-mountain level. Chō fūton: rasenshuriken might be mountain level, but I doubt it's smaller version is. Mountain level is reserved for Bijū-dama level techniques, and rasenshuriken is obviously not depicted as the same level as a Bijū-dama explosion.


Futon: Rasenshuriken alone produces a blast that is equivalent to 3.8-4.0 Megatons of TNT. That's enough to destroy small mountains, or at least raze them.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 22, 2013)

Does it really matter how powerful FRS is?

Anyone expecting it to get through a Susano'o is kidding themselves.


----------



## αce (Jun 22, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm not sure where we've seen fūton: rasenshuriken produce damage anywhere near mountain level, let alone multi-mountain level. Chō fūton: rasenshuriken might be mountain level, but I doubt it's smaller version is. Mountain level is reserved for Bijū-dama level techniques, and rasenshuriken is obviously not depicted as the same level as a Bijū-dama explosion.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Futon: Rasenshuriken alone produces a blast that is equivalent to 3.8-4.0 Megatons of TNT. That's enough to destroy small mountains, or at least raze them.




He just said on the last page that he didn't believe in OBD calcs.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> the magatama in your scan isn't larger than a human, so it would be you who would be conceding the point due to dishonesty.


bottom right panel.
concession accepted for blatant dishonesty.



> in no way was that my argument, thus a concession on your part since an ignored argument is a conceded one.


that is what you said:

*Spoiler*: __ 





ueharakk said:


> Naruto did something else with his seal since it is not required for rasengans.





its the same stance that ive beaten down countless times by now. concession accepted for repeating a beaten down stance.



> yes, but you are the one who has to argue that because he maintained the enton orb, he can't manifest it in that form.


he never manifested an enton orb of that size without using V4 susano first.



> wait hold on, I thought you were only arguing portrayal.  If you want to bring feats into this, then Naruto makes 13 KCM clones each equal to a kage and stomps feats-only sasuke period.


portrayal and feats. even so, ems sasuke murders kcm naruto by feats.


> And 'portrayal' in case you didn't know is all about speculation, its drawing parallels based on what you speculate but cannot prove kishi is trying to show.


using what kishi says in his interviews about naruto and sasukes development. taking direct quotes out of the manga that compare their techs and powers. thats not speculation.



> That's the best attack that Sasuke has shown unless you can prove that enton magatama > susanoo arrow.


i already did about 20 times by now. the enton usage and quantity on sasukes V4 susano is greater than the arrow that his V3 susano shoots.



> And that casual attack form Sasuke is his best attack he has been shown to have just like Naruto's COFRS is his best attack, thus its only the power of both attacks that are being compared not the power of the attackers.


the quantity of the flames spawned with enton magatamas are greater than the arrow.





> I've shown you exactly how the parallels coincide with the manga.  KCM Naruto makes his debut against white zetsu squad, so does EMS Sasuke.  KCM Naruto uses new techniques that wipe out lots of enemies quickly, so does EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto officially learns about the details of the war in that chapter, so does EMS Sasuke.


sasuke not at full power is compared to a full power kcm naruto. you cant get any more direct than that.


> On the other hand, your argument is simply, BM Naruto is introduced before lvl4 susanoo, therefore they are equals which in no way shape or form has anything to do with my parallels argument.


yes it does. your jimmies and getting rustled because it shoots your argument down.




> bolded is a baseless assertion.


name one time where people who saw both of their powers paralleled their strength when naruto and sasuke were not in each others presence.



> Except i've shown you why he took 3 pages:  because he was waiting for Sasuke.  however you just simply ignore this over and over, which of course is a concession on your part since an ignored argument is a conceded one.



im simply going by your logic. dont blame me because you jump from stance to stance with every post. you said it takes sasuke 3 pages to fire an arrow after its formed, so it takes naruto 3 pages to throw COFRS after its formed. anyway, you already conceded this point with your fallacious logic which includes you claimimg that it takes 3 pages for sasuke to fire an arrow when he canonically has done it much faster than that.





> not only is a giant arrow bigger than the magatama spam, but your argument isn't flame manipulation, it's size of enton, and thus unless you want to change your stance that size of enton =/= power of attack, your point is irrelevant.


the enton orb and the amount of flames it produced is greater in quantity than the enton the arrow is made of.


> Also, your statement is the exact parallel of naruto has used a bigger rasengan with more chakra arms, therefore his rasengans are more powerful with more chakra arms.


no it isnt. you can pretend thats the case if you want. V4 susano being stronger than V3 susano doesnt mean that naruto can make stronger rasengans than he has already shown.



> except that's straight up false.  If rasengan is naruto's strongest attack and Naruto can make 200 clones with rasengans, does that mean 200 clones with rasengans  = 1 naruto w/ rasengan?


that would mean that 200 rasengans is the full power for that naruto.



> So that means you actually believe that PS Madara + 25 susanoo clones = PS Madara w/o clones, or that SM Hashirama + 25 SM clones = SM Hashirama w/o clones.
> 
> if that's the kind of logic your stance has to cater to, then it's pretty much a concession on your part.


anything not on the scale of your full power automatically becomes a non-factor when you use it. this has been obvious since part 1 naruto. this is concessionary on your part.



> so deva path is just as strong as deva + 5 other paths because he has the strongest attack?
> so if KCM Naruto's strongest attack was FRS, KCM Naruto w/o kagebunshin, flashshunshin, kuchiyose = KCM Naruto
> 
> Yeah the things you have to argue for are indeed astounding.


when chibaku tensei is used, what purpose will the other paths serve?
kcm naruto=kcm naruto
FP kcm naruto(COFRS)=FP kcm naruto(COFRS)



> Concessionary dishonesty on your part as you continue to attack strawmen by saying I'm talking about V4 susanoo vs V3 susanoo as a whole while I'm actually only talking about their offensive capabilities.


thats basically saying that V4 susano is weaker than V3 susano. im not attacking a strawman. thats what you're saying. concession accepted for repeating a beaten down stance.


> Sasuke hasn't ever made anything stronger than an enton arrow, so he can't do it, period.  If you want to say that V4 susano makes his enton attacks stronger then additional chakra arms makes narutos attack stronger.


enton barrage>arrow doesnt mean that naruto can do things that he isnt implied to be able to do. there is only so much power you can put into a jutsu.



> So you actually believe that part 1 naruto w/ clones restricted = part 1 naruto with clones.


part 1 naruto cant even use rasengan without clones so your nonsense is invalid.



> bolded is falsified by  the portrayal that V4 EMS Sasuke's susanoo = KCM Naruto when both made their debut fighting white zetsus.


fallacious but i will play along. its later contradicted when it was stated that sasuke without full power is equal to a full power kcm naruto.



> not only is that flat out false, but Naruto made a more powerful rasengan with more chakra arms if you go by feats.  So this again is a concession on your part.


until naruto makes this more powerful rasengan that you're talking about, he doesnt have it. you've conceded this point multiple times, then change up your stance. you're being indecisive.



> The guy who has to argue that Naruto w/o clones = Naruto w clones has no right to make any accusations against the opposition.
> You've consistently lied about manga scans, had to utilized double standards, and strawman my arguments.


FP kcm naruto without clones=COFRS
FP kcm naruto with clones=COFRS
you're claims that V3 susano>V4 susano, sm naruto being portrayed as equal to ems sasuke, naruto can keep creating stronger rasengans if i say that V4 susano>V3 susano(DaFuq is this?) are all fallacious and you indeed needed to lie about the manga and utilize double standards in order to even extend the longevity of this discussion to the length that it is.


----------



## 2Broken (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't know why this is three pages, unless Sasuke gets Perfect Susanoo or some other broken technique he is casually defeated by Naruto and his dozen clones, all of which are much faster than him and can one shot him. I honestly don't see how anyone can say Sasuke can win this based off what we have seen thus far.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jun 23, 2013)

Krippy said:


> The highest calc I've seen for a standard FRS is 3 Megatons, while the highest for Kirin is 12 Megatons.
> 
> So yeah, unless you don't believe in calcs, Kirin has been stronger than FRS since it flattened a mile high hill.



Calcs? You sound like SuperSaiyaman12


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 23, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> bottom right panel.
> concession accepted for blatant dishonesty.


bottom right panel shows no magatama that's the size of a human, so I accept your concession.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> that is what you said:
> 
> its the same stance that ive beaten down countless times by now. concession accepted for repeating a beaten down stance.


Concession accepted as that was in no way my argument which was: Naruto couldn't have been using the seal for COFRS because Gamakichi doesn't know about the jutsu and the jutsu requires no handseals.  Thus unless you can refute that, the conclusion that the seals weren't for COFRS logically and necessarily follows.  And since none of your arguments have attempted to refute it, then yes it is a concession on your part since an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> he never manifested an enton orb of that size without using V4 susano first.


irrelevant, you said that enton orb was something that lvl4 susanoo could only do and then had to downgrade itself in order for the lower levels to use it, thus your argument has been proven wrong.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> portrayal and feats. even so, ems sasuke murders kcm naruto by feats.


oh please oh please tell me how EMS Sasuke stands 5 seconds against 13 KCM clones that can spam guided FRS and use bijuurasengan.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> using what kishi says in his interviews about naruto and sasukes development. taking direct quotes out of the manga that compare their techs and powers. thats not speculation.


yet that's not all you use to support your argument, you speculate on EMS Sasuke's lvl4 susanoo having a stronger jutsu than his lvl3, and speculate when you draw comparisons such as KCM Naruto = EMS Sasuke w/ lvl3 susanoo.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> i already did about 20 times by now. the enton usage and quantity on sasukes V4 susano is greater than the arrow that his V3 susano shoots.


in no way shape or form have you done this.  The enton arrow is much larger than the collective enton magatamas he fired.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the quantity of the flames spawned with enton magatamas are greater than the arrow.


except the size of the arrow compared to the size of all the magatamas completely negate that, the arrow is clearly much larger than the magatamas.  

In addition to that, the magatamas are all individually attacks he's just spamming those small attacks, and that in no way would make a lvl4 susanoo have the ability to produce larger enton than a lvl3.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasuke not at full power is compared to a full power kcm naruto. you cant get any more direct than that.


Concession accepted as this post just ignores my entire argument you quoted, and an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> yes it does. your jimmies and getting rustled because it shoots your argument down.


Concession accepted as none of this is a counterargument and thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> name one time where people who saw both of their powers paralleled their strength when naruto and sasuke were not in each others presence.


people? You mean the same person saw both of their powers paralleled their strength?  If that's the only way you can draw parallels, then in no way does KCM Naruto = lvl3 susanoo sasuke since the only thing that has been paralleled by a person in the manga was their respective attacks NOT their respective strength.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> im simply going by your logic. dont blame me because you jump from stance to stance with every post. you said it takes sasuke 3 pages to fire an arrow after its formed, so it takes naruto 3 pages to throw COFRS after its formed. anyway, you already conceded this point with your fallacious logic which includes you claimimg that it takes 3 pages for sasuke to fire an arrow when he canonically has done it much faster than that.


Nope you are not using my logic, you are simply ignoring my arguments which explain why it did take sasuke 3 pages to fire the arrow while naruto was ready in 2 panels.  Thus since you have continued to ignore my arguments, this is once again a tacit concession on your part.





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the enton orb and the amount of flames it produced is greater in quantity than the enton the arrow is made of.


Not if you even glance at the scans.  Concessionary dishonesty.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no it isnt. you can pretend thats the case if you want. V4 susano being stronger than V3 susano doesnt mean that naruto can make stronger rasengans than he has already shown.


If you want to say that Sasuke's enton gets powered up by V4 susanoo then it follows that Naruto's FRS gets powered up by the more chakra arms he uses to make it.  Else its a double standard on your part.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> that would mean that 200 rasengans is the full power for that naruto.


then that's a complete contradiction to your claim that the full power of a person is their strongest attack since in order to use 200 rasengans, naruto has to use 200 shadow clones.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *anything not on the scale of your full power automatically becomes a non-factor when you use it. *this has been obvious since part 1 naruto. this is concessionary on your part.


This has got to be one of the most concessionary and anti-canonical statement you've ever made.  So if BM Naruto uses a FRS, it's a non-factor because he can use super bijuudama?  If Hashirama uses a sword, then it's a non-factor because he can use shinsuusenjuu?  Based on this logic, Kakashi, Gai, Tobi and Bee are all non-factors when Naruto fought the juubi since none of them could produce anything on the scale of Naruto's full power.

Please just think before you type.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> when chibaku tensei is used, what purpose will the other paths serve?


irrelevant since you are saying that because deva path's most powerful attack is equal to deva path + 5 other paths, then deva path = 6 paths of pein.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> kcm naruto=kcm naruto
> FP kcm naruto(COFRS)=FP kcm naruto(COFRS)


concession accepted since an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> thats basically saying that V4 susano is weaker than V3 susano. im not attacking a strawman. thats what you're saying. concession accepted for repeating a beaten down stance.


This is why people should neg you over and over again.  In the very post you quoted, I explicitly explain that I'm only talking about V4 susanoo's offensive power not being greater than V3's, not that V4 susanoo as a whole is weaker.  So once again, since you've ignored my argument its a concession on your part.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> enton barrage>arrow doesnt mean that *naruto can do things that he isnt implied to be able to do.* there is only so much power you can put into a jutsu.


Enton barrage is not only collectively smaller than the giant arrow, but it's simply sasuke spamming enton magatamas each of which are smaller than his arrow, and thus lvl4 susanoo has no feats of performing enton greater than the lvl3.  

Oh and concession accepted as the bolded of your counterargument shows that you've ignored my own as more chakra arms = bigger FRS heavily implies that.... more chakra arms = bigger FRS.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> part 1 naruto cant even use rasengan without clones so your nonsense is invalid.


concession accepted as you've completely ignored the point of the comparison which is: Naruto w/ rasengan = naruto w/ rasengan plus 1,000 clones which is the stance that your argument has to take in order to be true.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> fallacious but i will play along. its later contradicted when it was stated that sasuke without full power is equal to *a full power kcm naruto.*


That's only true if the bolded is true, which is something that is falsified by the manga as only the attacks of the two would be their strongest attacks they've shown.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> until naruto makes this more powerful rasengan that you're talking about, he doesnt have it. you've conceded this point multiple times, then change up your stance. you're being indecisive.


Nope, if you want to use the logic that lvl4 susanoo gives a stronger lvl3 enton, then the argument stands that more chakra arms = more powerful FRS.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> FP kcm naruto without clones=COFRS
> FP kcm naruto with clones=COFRS


concession accepted since in this very post you've contradicted yourself when you claimed that 200 rasengans would be Naruto's full power instead of just one rasengan.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you're claims that V3 susano>V4 susano,


concession accepted as I've never stated or implied that.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sm naruto being portrayed as equal to ems sasuke,


concession accepted as it's only by your logic that that would be true.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto can keep creating stronger rasengans if i say that V4 susano>V3 susano(DaFuq is this?)


Once again, concession accepted as you're strawmanning my arguments.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> are all fallacious and you indeed needed to lie about the manga and utilize double standards in order to even extend the longevity of this discussion to the length that it is.


So pretty much all three charges you've accused me of are only true if you change my arguments  which would be attacking a strawman, and just show how terribly biased you are in your stance and why anyone who sees your posts should neg you without hesitation.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm not sure where we've seen fūton: rasenshuriken produce damage anywhere near mountain level, let alone multi-mountain level. Chō fūton: rasenshuriken might be mountain level, but I doubt it's smaller version is.



FRS created an explosion that enveloped   that's easily mountain level, it's more like multimountain level.

Then there's the fact that FRS did a lot more damage to Kurama than 25+ SM COR each of which are stated to be able to hollow out a mountain, and would do so if we scale destruction of smaller rasengans up to their size.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Mountain level is reserved for Bijū-dama level techniques, and rasenshuriken is obviously not depicted as the same level as a Bijū-dama explosion.


destroying a mountain requires much much less energy than what it takes to vaporize it.  Bijuudamas vaporize and leave a giant crater in the ground.



Nikushimi said:


> Does it really matter how powerful FRS is?
> 
> Anyone expecting it to get through a Susano'o is kidding themselves.



*What u* *talkin bout* *sonny* *boy?*


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> bottom right panel shows no magatama that's the size of a human, so I accept your concession.


 concession accepted for pure stupidity. not only do the enton magatamas have a greater quantity of enton than the arrow, the orb itself is factored in to how much enton is wielded by sasukes V4 susano.



> Concession accepted as that was in no way my argument which was: Naruto couldn't have been using the seal for COFRS because Gamakichi doesn't know about the jutsu and the jutsu requires no handseals.  Thus unless you can refute that, the conclusion that the seals weren't for COFRS logically and necessarily follows.  And since none of your arguments have attempted to refute it, then yes it is a concession on your part since an ignored argument is a conceded one.


naruto uses a seal, then uses COFRS. by your logic, we can never confirm whether a hand seal is linked to a jutsu when someone uses a tech.



> irrelevant, you said that enton orb was something that lvl4 susanoo could only do and then had to downgrade itself in order for the lower levels to use it, thus your argument has been proven wrong.


pretty sure that V4 susano has a superior enton orb as when its used by V4 susano, its multiple times larger than sasukes body. a V4 enton orb has feats that an enton orb in inferior susano dont.



> oh please oh please tell me how EMS Sasuke stands 5 seconds against 13 KCM clones that can spam guided FRS and use bijuurasengan.


V2 susano protected its user from an attack that can level a mountain. frs does nothing. it bounces off of susano thats V2 and up.



> yet that's not all you use to support your argument, you speculate on EMS Sasuke's lvl4 susanoo having a stronger jutsu than his lvl3, and speculate when you draw comparisons such as *KCM Naruto = EMS Sasuke w/ lvl3 susanoo.*


sasukes V4 susano canonically showed superior firepower. 
the bold was basically stated in the manga. take this up with kishi if you're so mad.


> in no way shape or form have you done this.  The enton arrow is much larger than the collective enton magatamas he fired.


we can keep going back and forth on this. no its not. the enton orb wielded by sasukes V4 susano is a bigger source of black flames than sasukes enton arrow.




> except the size of the arrow compared to the size of all the magatamas completely negate that, the arrow is clearly much larger than the magatamas.


no it doesnt and the size of the orb is a bigger flame source than the arrows.


> In addition to that, the magatamas are all individually attacks he's just spamming those small attacks, and that in no way would make a lvl4 susanoo have the ability to produce larger enton than a lvl3.


just because they arent bigger than the arrow individually, doesnt mean that they arent a greater quantity of enton together especially when the huge enton orb that sasukes V4 susano holds is taken into account.




> Concession accepted as this post just ignores my entire argument you quoted, and an ignored argument is a conceded one.


concession accepted sice you basically ignore every canon statement that destroys your argument.



> Concession accepted as none of this is a counterargument and thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.


it was nothing significant. it was just you complaining.




> people? You mean the same person saw both of their powers paralleled their strength?  If that's the only way you can draw parallels, then in no way does KCM Naruto = lvl3 susanoo sasuke since the only thing that has been paralleled by a person in the manga was their respective attacks NOT their respective strength.


kcm naruto was judged in top form. sasuke was judged using the best attack that his V3 susano can use, the 2 were deemed as equal.




> Nope you are not using my logic, you are simply ignoring my arguments which explain why it did take sasuke 3 pages to fire the arrow while naruto was ready in 2 panels.  Thus since you have continued to ignore my arguments, this is once again a tacit concession on your part.



you ignore the manga panels which show naruto charging COFRS as far longer than 2 panels. tisk, tisk. this is a tacit concession on your part.



> Not if you even glance at the scans.  Concessionary dishonesty.


the orb and magatamas have a greater quantity of enton than the arrow. concessionary dishonesty.



> If you want to say that Sasuke's enton gets powered up by V4 susanoo then it follows that Naruto's FRS gets powered up by the more chakra arms he uses to make it.  Else its a double standard on your part.


except, sasuke has feats to support my claims and naruto doesnt have feats to support yours. concessionary dishonesty yet again. what a surprise.




> then that's a complete contradiction to your claim that the full power of a person is their strongest attack since in order to use 200 rasengans, naruto has to use 200 shadow clones


.
the rasengans are the full power, not the clones. kagebunshin within itself, has no power. 



> This has got to be one of the most concessionary and anti-canonical statement you've ever made.  So if BM Naruto uses a FRS, it's a non-factor because he can use super bijuudama?  If Hashirama uses a sword, then it's a non-factor because he can use shinsuusenjuu?  Based on this logic, Kakashi, Gai, Tobi and Bee are all non-factors when Naruto fought the juubi since none of them could produce anything on the scale of Naruto's full power.


obviously they could do something to compete, hence them being factors.


> Please just think before you type.


you need to comprehend the manga properly before you post.



> irrelevant since you are saying that because deva path's most powerful attack is equal to deva path + 5 other paths, then deva path = 6 paths of pein.


actually, super deva path>>6 paths. nagato cant even use CT with all 6 paths active.



> concession accepted since an ignored argument is a conceded one.


yeah, just ignore how full power has been portrayed in the series. again, you conceded this point.



> This is why people should neg you over and over again.  In the very post you quoted, I explicitly explain that I'm only talking about V4 susanoo's offensive power not being greater than V3's, not that V4 susanoo as a whole is weaker.  So once again, since you've ignored my argument its a concession on your part.


how is this possible when V4 susano has shown a greater and deadlier offense than V3 susano? since V4 susano has feats supporting my claim, your argument is invalid and the substance of it turns into you claiming that V4 susano=V3 susano. this is concessionary dishonesty.



> Enton barrage is not only collectively smaller than the giant arrow, but it's simply sasuke spamming enton magatamas each of which are smaller than his arrow, and thus lvl4 susanoo has no feats of performing enton greater than the lvl3.


all im seeing in this is V4 susano=V3 susano. the orb and the magatams collectively have a greater quantity of flames than one enton arrow.


> Oh and concession accepted as the bolded of your counterargument shows that you've ignored my own as more chakra arms = bigger FRS heavily implies that.... more chakra arms = bigger FRS.


feats show that V4 susano>V3 susano. feats dont show naruto never having a limit on how much naruto can power up his rasengans.
concession accepted for deliberate twisting off feats.



> concession accepted as you've completely ignored the point of the comparison which is: Naruto w/ rasengan = naruto w/ rasengan plus 1,000 clones which is the stance that your argument has to take in order to be true.


you claimed that part 1 naruto without clones=part 1 naruto with clones to disprove my logic/manga. part 1 naruto cant even form a rasengan without clones. concession accepted. stop hopping between stances. be decisive.



> That's only true if the bolded is true, which is something that is falsified by the manga as only the attacks of the two would be their strongest attacks they've shown.


COFRS being kcm narutos full power isnt falsified as its the strongest thing he has shown.



> Nope, if you want to use the logic that lvl4 susanoo gives a stronger lvl3 enton, then the argument stands that more chakra arms = more powerful FRS.


no it doesnt, since my stance is actually supported by manga feats.



> concession accepted since in this very post you've contradicted yourself when you claimed that 200 rasengans would be Naruto's full power instead of just one rasengan.


how is this a contradiction? this would vary with the forms of naruto. concession accepted for strawmanning.



> concession accepted as I've never stated or implied that.


do you want me to post the quote, because there are dozens of quotes that i can pull of you claiming this.
concessionary dishonesty.


> concession accepted as it's only by your logic that that would be true.


no, you just flat out claimed this out of nowhere. either way, to validate your claims(with your claim not even being in the manga in the first place), you would have to ignore every single parallel after that.
concessionary dishonesty.



> Once again, concession accepted as you're strawmanning my arguments.


simply restating your opinion dozens of times doesnt mean anything. nobody's strawmanning anything. you're looking for excuses.
concessionary dishonesty.


> So pretty much all three charges you've accused me of are only true if you change my arguments  which would be attacking a strawman, and just show how terribly biased you are in your stance and why anyone who sees your posts should neg you without hesitation.


you said and did all the things i mentioned. you think sugar coating what you're trying to say will make me look over your fallacious reasoning.


----------



## Rain (Jun 23, 2013)

> Rasenshuriken works on a cellular level.
> Susano'o has no cells.
> Sasuke murderstomps.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 23, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted for pure stupidity. not only do the enton magatamas have a greater quantity of enton than the arrow, the orb itself is factored in to how much enton is wielded by sasukes V4 susano.


size of the enton orb is irrelevant, the only thing that is relevant is the size of the offensive jutsu that the enton orb produces which is what you are comparing the naruto's attack.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto uses a seal, then uses COFRS. by your logic, we can never confirm whether a hand seal is linked to a jutsu when someone uses a tech.


concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> V2 susano protected its user from an attack that can level a mountain. frs does nothing. it bounces off of susano thats V2 and up.


wait wait, so are you saying V2 susanoo can tank 13 FRS with zero damage?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sasukes V4 susano canonically showed superior firepower.
> the bold was basically stated in the manga. take this up with kishi if you're so mad.


all of these are merely assertions, and thus would falsify your previous post as you stated that you do not speculate.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted sice you basically ignore every canon statement that destroys your argument.
> 
> 
> 
> it was nothing significant. it was just you complaining.


once again, concession accepted as none of these posts address my argument and thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *kcm naruto was judged in top form. *sasuke was judged using the best attack that his V3 susano can use, the 2 were deemed as equal.


KCM Naruto's ATTACK was judged, that's the only thing that Tobirama or Minato are comparing *in that scan,* and thus since that scan is the only comparison being made between naruto and sasuke, then it only follows that their ATTACKs are equal.  you can't have your cake and eat it, if you want to draw parallels, you can't parallel attacks and then jump to parallels in overall characters if the attacks are the only thing being compared.






EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you ignore the manga panels which show naruto charging COFRS as far longer than 2 panels. tisk, tisk. this is a tacit concession on your part.


Please oh please show me scans or panels of Naruto charging COFRS longer than 2 panels.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except, sasuke has feats to support my claims and naruto doesnt have feats to support yours. concessionary dishonesty yet again. what a surprise.


naruto does have feats to support mine, and those feats are that when he uses stronger rasengans he uses more arms.

and of course sasuke doesn't have feats to support your claims.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the rasengans are the full power, not the clones. kagebunshin within itself, has no power.


that's completely irrelevant.  the point is that in order to use Naruto's full power which is 200 rasengans, he has to use kagebunshin another jutsu, and thus that flat out falsifies your claim that the person's strongest jutsu is their full power.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> obviously they could do something to compete, hence them being factors.


that's completely different from your original argument which was that 'anything below their strongest attack is non-factor' unless you want to argue that a FRS is comparable in power to a Super bijuudama or a sword is comparable to shinsuusenjuu.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> actually, super deva path>>6 paths. nagato cant even use CT with all 6 paths active.


Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> yeah, just ignore how full power has been portrayed in the series. again, you conceded this point.


please oh please show me then, provide evidence of this full power as being portrayed in the way you claim.  What gives naruto the win in basically every one of his fights in part 2?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> how is this possible when *V4 susano has shown a greater and deadlier offense than V3 susano? *since V4 susano has feats supporting my claim, your argument is invalid and the substance of it turns into you claiming that V4 susano=V3 susano. this is concessionary dishonesty.


bolded is an assertion which is falsified by feats and portrayal.  And once again, you try to strawman my argument by saying I'm claiming V4 susanoo = V3 which is a concession on your part.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *all im seeing in this is V4 susano=V3 susano.* the orb and the magatams collectively have a greater quantity of flames than one enton arrow.


concession accepted.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *feats show that V4 susano>V3 susano.* feats dont show naruto never having a limit on how much naruto can power up his rasengans.
> concession accepted for deliberate twisting off feats.


Concession accepted.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you claimed that part 1 naruto without clones=part 1 naruto with clones to disprove my logic/manga. part 1 naruto cant even form a rasengan without clones. concession accepted. stop hopping between stances. be decisive.


Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no it doesnt, since my stance is actually supported by manga feats.


mine is as well, more chakra arms by feats = larger and more powerful FRS.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> how is this a contradiction? this would vary with the forms of naruto. concession accepted for strawmanning.


concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> do you want me to post the quote, because there are dozens of quotes that i can pull of you claiming this.
> concessionary dishonesty.


please oh please do so.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *no, you just flat out claimed this out of nowhere.* either way, to validate your claims(with your claim not even being in the manga in the first place), you would have to ignore every single parallel after that.
> concessionary dishonesty.


Concessionary dishonesty as the parallel was only brought up after you tried to make the fallacious analogy that BM Naruto = V4 susanoo because BM came before V4 susanoo (which isn't even true).



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> simply restating your opinion dozens of times doesnt mean anything. nobody's strawmanning anything. you're looking for excuses.
> concessionary dishonesty.


Concession accepted as all of that is simply an assertion and an assertion backed up by no argument is baseless.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you said and did all the things i mentioned. you think sugar coating what you're trying to say will make me look over your fallacious reasoning.


In no way am I sugar coating anything, I've shown you exactly why your accusations are all strawmans and all of your counters to that have just been assertions backed up with zero evidence thus, you concede all of those points as well.


----------



## Larcher (Jun 23, 2013)

Well it is true that Susano can with stand what ever attacks KCm Naruto has got up his sleeves even if he interchanges into SM and goes Odama rasenghan barrage but on the other hand Sasuke is not going to hit Naruto in KCM he's just to fast if Ei managed to dodge ameterasu a person of whom KCM Naruto succesfully evaded his fastest attack deeming KCM Naruto is faster so he'll dodge all of his atttacks Ameterasu is the fastest attack he has Bar Kirin which could be a problem for Naruto as it covers a wide radius so evading would be hard I nkow this sounds abit unconstructive but Naruto could use gamabunta to with stand the4 blast there is a chance he could survive as well thugh Naruto's safety off all's will still be in tact and we already know that Kirin is a Jutsu he can only pull off once and Naruto would kill him ftom then on as Sasuke would be entirely exhausted but that may not be the case as Sasuke generally doesn't tend to use Kirin we've only seen it once So he is most likely to fight through Susano not to mention the fact it's most possible that he can't use Kirin when under Susano  and that staying out of Susano to long would mean Sauce getting bamflashed by Naruto.

So he'll stay in Susano and go into it quite quckly just to assure his safety The two of them would be under going a rather long cycle where Naruto will be using rasenghans and futon rasen shurikens that won't break throuhg Susano or make a dent while Sauce will be persistantly failing in the attempt of hitting for reasonds i've already mentioned not to menion his other attacks like the Susano arrow and enton being much slower than Ametarasu so Naruto will have no trouble there and genjutsu will have no affect on KCM Naruto as I ashume a semi perfect Jinchuriki can break any genjutsu like a perfect jinchuriki can nothing was specified against it so i would say it's more likely he can break genjutsu plus the fact Sasuke can't control space and time snd make Tsukyomi last a second like Itachi can menas there's no arguement not to mention Killer Bee's already broken it and Sasuke will have to go into straight up taijututsu Kenjutsu to get a chance of casting which is a terrible choice for him to make as Naruto fought on par with Itachi who has shown to be clearly supier in Taijutus to Sasuke.

So overall the fight will go down to who can last longer which easily  goes to Naruto his stamina far exceeds Sasuke's which will ultimately lead to Sasuke no longer being able to keep up Susano leaving Naruto with the perfect oppurtunity to capitialze and kill him Naruto can also use the forg song Genjutsu Jiriya used against Pein Rikudo KCM Naruto's speed makes up for the fact that it's quite slow but make it hard to anticapate instead and Kabuto has already specified that sound based Genjutsu is exposes those with the MS/EMS prowess just as much as anyone else so i'm going with KCM>EMS Sasuke more times than not.


----------



## Illusive Frame (Jun 23, 2013)

Naruto wins this. 

FRS spam and he'll just simply outlast Sasuke.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> size of the enton orb is irrelevant, the only thing that is relevant is the size of the offensive jutsu that the enton orb produces which is what you are comparing the naruto's attack.


no its not, as its the source of the ninjutsu. enton is enton. the orb is enton, so its accounted for. the quantity of enton on V4 susano and its attacks>V3 susano.



> concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



> wait wait, so are you saying V2 susanoo can tank 13 FRS with zero damage?


the manga supports V2 susano>frs, so yes thats what im saying.



> all of these are merely assertions, and thus would falsify your previous post as you stated that you do not speculate.


concession accepted for failing to counter the substance of my post yet again.



> once again, concession accepted as none of these posts address my argument and thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.


if you would stop being biased, you would see that V4 susano>V3 susano. concession accepted for dishonesty.



> *KCM Naruto's ATTACK was judged, *that's the only thing that Tobirama or Minato are comparing *in that scan,* and thus since that scan is the only comparison being made between naruto and sasuke, then it only follows that their ATTACKs are equal.  you can't have your cake and eat it, if you want to draw parallels, you can't parallel attacks and then jump to parallels in overall characters if the attacks are the only thing being compared.


the strongest thing that he has shown, which makes it his full power. a casual sasuke matched a full power of kcm naruto.






> Please oh please show me scans or panels of Naruto charging COFRS longer than 2 panels.


this brings us back to your baseless assertion that naruto didnt need to make a seal for COFRS.



> naruto does have feats to support mine, and those feats are that when he uses stronger rasengans he uses more arms.


until naruto shows this rasengan, its not a feat for naruto.


> and of course sasuke doesn't have feats to support your claims.



he has feats of using more enton in V4 susano than in V3 susano.



> that's completely irrelevant.  the point is that in order to use Naruto's full power which is 200 rasengans, he has to use kagebunshin another jutsu, and thus that flat out falsifies your claim that the person's strongest jutsu is their full power.


your logic may have worked if naruto himself hadnt claimed the rasengan barrage to be 1 jutsu.
he didnt, therefore you are merely making noise.


> that's completely different from your original argument which was that 'anything below their strongest attack is non-factor' unless you want to argue that a FRS is comparable in power to a Super bijuudama or a sword is comparable to shinsuusenjuu.


yes, anything less than your full power is a non-factor when you are actually using your full power.



> Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



> please oh please show me then, provide evidence of this full power as being portrayed in the way you claim.  What gives naruto the win in basically every one of his fights in part 2?


a full power sasuke clashes with a full power naruto. the 2 jutsus used exclusively are chidori and rasengan.
a full power madara clashes with a full power hashirama. the 2 jutsus used exclusively are PS/kyuubi and shinsusenju.
a full power sasuke attacks a full power itachi. the 2 jutsus used exclusively are kirin and susano.
a full power gokage attacks an about to be fully powered madara. the 2 jutsus used exclusively are super jinton and PS.



> bolded is an assertion which is falsified by feats and portrayal.  And once again, you try to strawman my argument by saying I'm claiming V4 susanoo = V3 which is a concession on your part.


you are basically saying that V4 susano isnt any stronger than V3 susano. im just putting it bluntly. you're hopping around the statement.



> concession accepted.


concession accepted.



> Concession accepted.


concession accepted.



> Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



> mine is as well, more chakra arms by feats = larger and more powerful FRS.


except, naruto has no feats of this stronger frs.



> concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



> please oh please do so.


refer to my sig.



> Concessionary dishonesty as the parallel was only brought up after you tried to make the fallacious analogy that BM Naruto = V4 susanoo because BM came before V4 susanoo (which isn't even true).


concessionary dishonesty as you attempted to claim that kcm naruto with only rasengans=sasuke with V4 susano. after you claimed this(something not manga supported), you ignored every other parallel.



> Concession accepted as all of that is simply an assertion and an assertion backed up by no argument is baseless.


concession accepted for failing to counter the substance of the post. you have no feats to support your stances at all and you are twisting manga panels and feats. you are doing the exact thing which you are claiming im doing(which im not) but you continuously try to call me out on it. thats a double standard.



> In no way am I sugar coating anything, I've shown you exactly why your accusations are all strawmans and all of your counters to that have just been assertions backed up with zero evidence thus, you concede all of those points as well.


yes you are. you are hopping around the fact that your argument says that sasukes V4 susano=his V3 susano. thats basically the substance of your argument.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 23, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no its not, as its the source of the ninjutsu. enton is enton. the orb is enton, so its accounted for. the quantity of enton on V4 susano and its attacks>V3 susano.


That's irrelevant since you said by feats the V4 susanoo has a stronger enton attack than V3, thus having a bigger enton orb is irrelevant because it would fall into the same category as more chakra arms = bigger FRS.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the manga supports V2 susano>frs, so yes thats what im saying.


So how much FRS can V2 susanoo take before it gets destroyed?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted for failing to counter the substance of my post yet again.


baseless assertion, concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> if you would stop being biased, you would see that V4 susano>V3 susano. concession accepted for dishonesty.


concession accepted once again for blatant strawmanning.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> *the strongest thing that he has shown, which makes it his full power.* a casual sasuke matched a full power of kcm naruto.


The bolded is a baseless assertion and in no way shape or form is implied by the manga.  the naruto using 200 rasengan example flat out falsifies your argument, and thus I accept your concession on this point.






EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> this brings us back to your baseless assertion that naruto didnt need to make a seal for COFRS.


Concession accepted as I've supported my argument countless times and you simply saying it's a baseless assertion means you are ignoring it.  Thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> until naruto shows this rasengan, its not a feat for naruto.


then until sasuke shows a larger enton than his arrow, having a bigger enton orb isn't a feat for Sasuke.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> he has feats of using more enton in V4 susano than in V3 susano.


That's completely irrelevant.  Collectively he might have used more enton, but you are comparing his ATTACK in V3 to his ATTACK in V4 and his strongest ATTACK in V3 is stronger than the strongest ATTACK he's shown in V4.  Thus if you want to speculate and say bigger enton orb = bigger enton attacks, then you also have to concede that more chakra arms = bigger FRS.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> your logic may have worked if naruto himself hadnt claimed the rasengan barrage to be 1 jutsu.
> he didnt, therefore you are merely making noise.


Irrelant if the rasengan barrage is just claimed to be 1 jutsu, the fact is that it's a combination of 2 jutsu the rasengan and the shadow clones which falsifies your logic that his strongest attack = him being at full power.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> yes, anything less than your full power is a non-factor when you are actually using your full power.


Then that once again is falsified by BM Naruto cutting through the juubi's tails with FRS while according to you his super bijuudama would be his full power, or Hashirama killing Madara with a sword since according to you shinsuusenjuu would be his full power.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> a full power sasuke clashes with a full power naruto. the 2 jutsus used exclusively are chidori and rasengan.


A sasuke using his strongest attack clashes with a naruto using his strongest attack =/= full power sasuke = full power naruto.  




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> a full power madara clashes with a full power hashirama. the 2 jutsus used exclusively are PS/kyuubi and shinsusenju.


nope you wouldn't be comparing the PS/Kyuubi and shinsuusenjuu because by your logic they are like shadow clones in that they have no power on their own.  It would be the ATTACKS that PS/Kyuubi and shinsuusenjuu use which are bijuudamasword spammed 11 times and Shinsuusenjuu punches spammed thousands of times.

Thus that falsifies your claim that full power = singular strongest attack since Madara has to use PS and Kurama to generate his strongest offense and Hashirama has to use shinsuusenjuu to use his strongest offense which would be the exact equal to Naruto using shadow clones in order to use his strongest offense.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> a full power sasuke attacks a full power itachi. the 2 jutsus used exclusively are kirin and susano.


So that means SM Naruto> EMS Sasuke since Sasuke's strongest attack is still Kirin and Naruto can cancel that out with FRS.

A full power base naruto clashes with madara's mokuton forest.  Naruto's full power consists of 2 jutsus: kagebunshin and oodama rasengan.

Naruto using his strongest jutsu at the time (Fuuton rasengan) clashes with kakashi's raikiri yet Naruto can use a 200 rasengan barrage.  So according to your logic fuuton rasengan > 200 rasengans.

A full power Kiba uses a shadow clone and akamaru to pull off his strongest attack.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you are basically saying that V4 susano isnt any stronger than V3 susano. im just putting it bluntly. you're hopping around the statement.


concession accepted once again as you are attacking a strawman for the 1,000th time.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except, naruto has no feats of this stronger frs.


just like Sasuke has no feats of this stronger enton than the giant enton arrow.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> refer to my sig.


concession accepted for blatant strawmaning.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concessionary dishonesty as you attempted to claim that kcm naruto with only rasengans=sasuke with V4 susano. after you claimed this(something not manga supported), you ignored every other parallel.


The parallel is only by your own logic, thus if you don't like the parallel it would be you who would have to concede the other points else it logically follows that KCM Naruto with only rasengans and chakra arms = V4 susanoo.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> concession accepted for failing to counter the substance of the post. you have no feats to support your stances at all and you are twisting manga panels and feats. you are doing the exact thing which you are claiming im doing(which im not) but you continuously try to call me out on it. thats a double standard.


All of these are merely assertions that are falsified by all of my arguments in this thread, and thus a concession on your part.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> yes you are. you are hopping around the fact that your argument says that sasukes V4 susano=his V3 susano. thats basically the substance of your argument.


Concession once again accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  

So basically the only thing you're posts are doing now is saying 13 FRS will do zero damage to V2 susanoo, constantly making the false claim that strongest singular attack = person at full power, and blatantly attacking a strawman by claiming I'm saying V3 susanoo=V4 susanoo while I'm only talking about the offensive enton.  In addition to that, you've basically just posted "concession accepted" whenever you ignore my arguments and are forced to make a tacit concession, and thus on all points you merely post 'concession accepted' without showing why, you have conceded.

Debate honestly child.


----------



## Puppetry (Jun 23, 2013)

I suppose it would be a bit of tie - not only is there equality all but stated, their abilities also result in a stalemate; Naruto's overwhelming offense and speed can be countered by Sasuke turtling up in _Susanoo_ and surrounding himself with _Enton._ I don't really see Naruto penetrating _Enton,_ but I also don't see Sasuke managing him to tag him with it. 

Naruto is in the more advantageous position because he's applying pressure while Sasuke merely protects himself, but I wouldn't really call that a victory.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That's irrelevant since you said by feats the V4 susanoo has a stronger enton attack than V3, thus having a bigger enton orb is irrelevant because it would fall into the same category as more chakra arms = bigger FRS.


no it doesnt enton is enton. sasuke has the greatest quantity of enton in conjunction with V4 susano by feats, not V3/




> So how much FRS can V2 susanoo take before it gets destroyed?


whatever this limit is, naruto cant exploit it according to feats and statements.



> baseless assertion, concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


baseless assertion, concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



> concession accepted once again for blatant strawmanning.


concession accepted once again for blatant strawmanning.



> The bolded is a baseless assertion and in no way shape or form is implied by the manga.  the naruto using 200 rasengan example flat out falsifies your argument, and thus I accept your concession on this point.


200 rasengans would be the full power for whatever form of naruto you are talking about. naruto states this barrage to be 1 attack therefore, your example is invalid. concession accepted.






> Concession accepted as I've supported my argument countless times and you simply saying it's a baseless assertion means you are ignoring it.  Thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.


Concession accepted as I've supported my argument countless times and you simply saying it's a baseless assertion means you are ignoring it.  Thus an ignored argument is a conceded one.



> then until sasuke shows a larger enton than his arrow, having a bigger enton orb isn't a feat for Sasuke.


this is basically contradictory. you say having a bigger enton orb is irrelevant but the enton orb is made of enton.



> That's completely irrelevant. * Collectively he might have used more enton,* but you are comparing his ATTACK in V3 to his ATTACK in V4 and his strongest ATTACK in V3 is stronger than the strongest ATTACK he's shown in V4.  Thus if you want to speculate and say bigger enton orb = bigger enton attacks, then you also have to concede that more chakra arms = bigger FRS.


good to see you agreeing with the bold.




> Irrelant if the rasengan barrage is just claimed to be 1 jutsu, the fact is that it's a combination of 2 jutsu the rasengan and the shadow clones which falsifies your logic that his strongest attack = him being at full power.


1 attack=1 jutsu



> Then that once again is falsified by BM Naruto cutting through the juubi's tails with FRS while according to you his super bijuudama would be his full power, or Hashirama killing Madara with a sword since according to you shinsuusenjuu would be his full power.


so your saying that narutos full power is FRS, not bijudama. that doesnt change anything. hashirama wasnt using his full power when he killed madara.




> A sasuke using his strongest attack clashes with a naruto using his strongest attack =/= full power sasuke = full power naruto.



thats the best that they had so its their full power.



> nope you wouldn't be comparing the PS/Kyuubi and shinsuusenjuu because by your logic they are like shadow clones in that they have no power on their own.  It would be the ATTACKS that PS/Kyuubi and shinsuusenjuu use which are bijuudamasword spammed 11 times and Shinsuusenjuu punches spammed thousands of times.


ok then. so what?


> Thus that falsifies your claim that full power = singular strongest attack since Madara has to use PS and Kurama to generate his strongest offense and Hashirama has to use shinsuusenjuu to use his strongest offense which would be the exact equal to Naruto using shadow clones in order to use his strongest offense.


thats still the best thing that they have so its their full power. you proved nothing.



> So that means SM Naruto> EMS Sasuke since *Sasuke's strongest attack is still Kirin* and Naruto can cancel that out with FRS.


and you say that i make baseless assertions.....
LOL at naruto canceling a lightning attack on a completely different level than frs. i guess an enton arrow is on the scale of kirin going by your logic.


> A full power base naruto clashes with madara's mokuton forest.  Naruto's full power consists of 2 jutsus: kagebunshin and oodama rasengan.


still the best attack that he has so its his full power. rasengan barrage is 1 attack.


> Naruto using his strongest jutsu at the time (Fuuton rasengan) clashes with kakashi's raikiri yet Naruto can use a 200 rasengan barrage.  So according to your logic fuuton rasengan > 200 rasengans.


if fuuton rasengan is stronger than 200 rasengans then yes it would be narutos full power.


> A full power Kiba uses a shadow clone and akamaru to pull off his strongest attack.


if its the best attack that he has, then its his full power.




> concession accepted once again as you are attacking a strawman for the 1,000th time.


concession accepted once again as you are attacking a strawman for the 1,000th time.



> just like Sasuke has no feats of this stronger enton than the giant enton arrow.


except he showed better feats and you're merely pretending that he hasnt. concessionary dishonesty.



> concession accepted for blatant strawmaning.


concession accepted for blatant strawmaning.



> The parallel is only by your own logic, thus if you don't like the parallel it would be you who would have to concede the other points else it logically follows that KCM Naruto with only rasengans and chakra arms = V4 susanoo.


no i dont since a non-full power sasuke was paralleled with a full power kcm naruto.



> All of these are merely assertions that are falsified by all of my arguments in this thread, and thus a concession on your part.


concession accepted for blatant double standards and lying about manga panels.



> Concession once again accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


Concession once again accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  


> So basically the only thing you're posts are doing now is saying 13 FRS will do zero damage to V2 susanoo, constantly making the false claim that strongest singular attack = person at full power, and blatantly attacking a strawman by claiming I'm saying V3 susanoo=V4 susanoo while I'm only talking about the offensive enton.  In addition to that, you've basically just posted "concession accepted" whenever you ignore my arguments and are forced to make a tacit concession, and thus on all points you merely post 'concession accepted' without showing why, you have conceded.
> 
> Debate honestly child.


_-yawn-_
boring debate is boring. this entire debate is just you making false analogies about things that never even happened in the manga, basically equating V3 and V4 susano, twisting all manga panels that shut you down, utilizing double standards, making inflated claims about narutos power that you cannot back up, etc.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jun 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Futon: Rasenshuriken alone produces a blast that is equivalent to 3.8-4.0 Megatons of TNT. That's enough to destroy small mountains, or at least raze them.



I don't believe in the OBD calculations. At least, not when we're just discussing a single manga. Feats-wise, rasenshuriken has not displayed that level of destructive ability.


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## ueharakk (Jun 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't believe in the OBD calculations. At least, not when we're just discussing a single manga. Feats-wise, rasenshuriken has not displayed that level of destructive ability.



Atlantic, can you reply to my argument for FRS being at the level of kirin please.

Argument 1)


Argument 2)
FRS > 25 + SM COR, each attack stated by DB to be able to hollow out a mountain, and being able to do so by feats if we scale up damage to rasengan ratio of smaller ones.


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## ueharakk (Jun 23, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no it doesnt enton is enton. sasuke has the greatest quantity of enton in conjunction with V4 susano by feats, not V3


but him having a bigger enton orb is irrelevant since you are comparing the power of his attack in those two forms.  If you want to say bigger enton orb = stronger attack, then you'd have to concede the equivalent of that argument which is more chakra arms = stronger FRS since neither naruto nor sasuke has performed an on-panel feat of an attack stronger than the COFRS or the enton arrow regardless if a bigger enton orb or more chakra arms imply they can.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> whatever this limit is, naruto cant exploit it according to feats and statements.


we are arguing feats, I need numbers from you.  You said that V2 susanoo tanks 13 FRS simultaneously without even getting scratched.  Based on whatever evidence the manga has given us, how many FRS can V2 susanoo tank?

Can it tank 100 FRS?
Can it tank 1,000 FRS?

Until you answer this question, debating the rest of the thread is pretty pointless.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't believe in the OBD calculations. At least, not when we're just discussing a single manga. Feats-wise, rasenshuriken has not displayed that level of destructive ability.



It's not as if there isn't a visual showing that backs up that level of calculated destructive ability anyways.


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## Rosencrantz (Jun 23, 2013)

Naruto. Really not much of a question at this point. Amaterasu gets avoided. Enton attacks can also be avoided. Naruto can split into 13 clones and use fuuton: Rasenshuriken to bust Susano. Frog song can also work. Naruto can counter all of his abilities and while Sasuke can fend off Naruto, Susano is going to cave or frog song does it while Sasuke is distracted with 13 KCM clones.


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Does it really matter how powerful FRS is?
> 
> Anyone expecting it to get through a Susano'o is kidding themselves.



Don't forget, Sasuke has to deal with Chakra Arms that can guide the FRS. The hit is almost guaranteed. Sasuke is fast, but he's not faster than the 3rd Raikage, and Naruto tagged him with an FRS. 

There's still the matter of fact that Naruto can also Summon Ma and Pa for Frog Song, and the fact that Kurama is working with Naruto right now to generate KCM Chakra. And with Naruto's clones using KCM at least 13 of them, along with Chakra arms and FRS's, Sasuke is in a bit of a pickle there.


----------



## Rain (Jun 24, 2013)

ITT: lolcalcs.


----------



## Ashi (Jun 25, 2013)

Naruto wins... Since he has clones,speed blitz rasengan variation and chakra arms


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## Illusive Frame (Jun 25, 2013)

Anyone expecting 13 Odama FRS to not get through Susanoo are kidding themselves...


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## αce (Jun 25, 2013)

> ITT: lolcalcs.



Pretty much.



> Anyone expecting 13 Odama FRS to not get through Susanoo are kidding themselves...



So 13 clones are going to run at Sasuke and not get pierced by arrows in the process?


----------



## Illusive Frame (Jun 25, 2013)

αce said:


> So 13 clones are going to run at Sasuke and not get pierced by arrows in the process?



Are you implying that that the clones can't dodge his arrow and that they need to get up close to him to hit him with Odama FRS? 

And even if Sasuke manages to hit one, the others would have already hit him with their Odama FRS's.


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## Krippy (Jun 25, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Calcs? You sound like SuperSaiyaman12



the cancer is spreading 

Sakura was this close when FRS expanded, if that were Kirin she wouldn't be in very good shape

or alive for that matter


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## bleakwinter (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that Sasuke's Susanoo still doesn't have legs (1). With manga knowledge, wouldn't Naruto simply utilize his Chakra arms (2) to forcefully rip Sasuke out of Susanoo akin to Gaara's doing against Madara (3)? Naruto has witnessed this tactic done in person, so he would definitely be privy to Susanoo's weakness. Even if a bijuudama doesn't possess sufficient power to outright bust through it, then this method should still work regardless.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jun 25, 2013)

I'll reply to argument one in the same point I'm making against ATastyMuffin. 



ueharakk said:


> Atlantic, can you reply to my argument for FRS being at the level of kirin please.
> FRS > 25 + SM COR, each attack stated by DB to be able to hollow out a mountain, and being able to do so by feats if we scale up damage to rasengan ratio of smaller ones.



Senpō: chō ōdama rasengan has no feats to actually back up that claim, so it's pretty much just baseless hype. It's the same as Amaterasu being as hot as the Sun, or Itachi's suiton being as fast as the speed of light. It might not be quite as outlandish as that, but it still lacks the feats to properly support that claim. The databooks are meant to be used as a secondary source of information, and even then, aren't very reliable. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> It's not as if there isn't a visual showing that backs up that level of calculated destructive ability anyways.



That doesn't necessarily mean it would be able to destroy several mountains all at once, though. The explosion we see there, and the explosion we see... pretty much every other time it's used, even in a superior transformation, are of a completely different scale. That's just an outlier as a result of Kishimoto being bad at perspective.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jun 25, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Location: VotE
> Distance: 40 meters
> Knowledge: Manga
> Mindset: IC
> ...



Lets check and see...

sasuke's abilities...
VS
naruto's abiliteis
based on FEATS and common sense...

Naruto has no real counter for amaterasu, tsukuyomi or susanoo other then clones... WHich is what will determine the fight IMO... How ell naruto can use his clones or how well sasuke can use his MS jutsu...

Each clone and the real naruto is moving about as fast as raikage V1 shown by the consistent amount of speed feats... 4 unable to out speed raikage in v1 and 1 feat of being able to equal speed in V2 with circumstances of a head start...
However, V1 raikage has already been shown to be just a little too slow for sasuke allowing him the advantage in speed...

here...
*Spoiler*: __ 



[/IMG]




sasuke has the speed advantage by a little bit...

Strength obviously goes to naruto unless sasuke is using susanoo... then they might be equal...

Stamina goes to naruto although sasuke has gained allot more power and stamina since mastering the MS and then gaining his brother MS powers as well...

Intelligence goes to sasuke though... Naruto has some moments, but sasuke is usually always doing something intelligent and not relying on power...

CONCLUSION:
I would say sasuke has the advantage to win using amaterasu and kagutsuchi...  but if naruto can intelligently use his clones, then he could win... it's too close IMO...


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## Illusive Frame (Jun 25, 2013)

Did I just see someone say Sasuke has the speed advantage against KM Naruto...? o.o


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Jun 25, 2013)

Illusive Frame said:


> Did I just see someone say Sasuke has the speed advantage against KM Naruto...? o.o



Qut fanning! Sasuke does not need plot circumstances to dodge raikage's attacks....
Last I checked, sasuke actually dodge and landed his own attack while naruto consistently could not even do that then used a head start and shushin just to avoid a single V2 attack... Yet somehow naruto is V2 raikage level now... LMAO!

If naruto is so fast then why couldn't he get past raikage in V1 or land a hit like sauske did??? Then need a head start to merely dodge a single punch? clearly naruto is not that fast... I mean, his speed made no difference against Tobi or the JINKs who has no speed feats... clearly naruto is being overestimated for some plot speed punch dodge...


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## Illusive Frame (Jun 25, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Qut fanning! Sasuke does not need plot circumstances to dodge raikage's attacks....
> Last I checked, sasuke actually dodge and landed his own attack while naruto consistently could not even do that then used a head start and shushin just to avoid a single V2 attack... Yet somehow naruto is V2 raikage level now... LMAO!
> 
> If naruto is so fast then why couldn't he get past raikage in V1 or land a hit like sauske did??? Then need a head start to merely dodge a single punch? clearly naruto is not that fast... I mean, his speed made no difference against Tobi or the JINKs who has no speed feats... clearly naruto is being overestimated for some plot speed punch dodge...



Oh I don't know....

maybe because unlike Sasuke, Naruto wasn't trying to fight A?

Naruto was able to react and dodge A's top speed. Are you saying Sasuke could do that? The same Sasuke that couldn't keep up with V2 A's speed? 

-snip-


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 25, 2013)

This thread is gonna give me heart disease if I keep reading these posts.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Jun 25, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Lets check and see...
> 
> sasuke's abilities...
> VS
> ...



Show me scans of Sasuke avoiding Raikage's fastest punch. Wait they don't exist. Naruto dodges Amaterasu and is faster than Sasuke. By far. Sasuke's eyes can not track V2 Raikage's movements. KCM Naruto is faster than him. Period. Minato is faster than Raikage because he dodged his fastest punch. KCM Naruto is the second person to dodge this punch. So what does that make Naruto? Faster than Raikage. 

Amaterasu is Sasuke's fastest jutsu. Naruto can dodge amaterasu thus he can dodge all of his jutsu. Kage Bunshin feints can make up for what can't be avoided. 

Sasuke does not have a speed advantage. You look extremely foolish claiming this.

You have no argument. You compared a bunch of completely pointless categories and came to a conclusion unrelated to them. KCM Naruto can avoid his attacks and bunshin feint them. He can use upwards of 13 FRSs showing he can bust Susano. Sasuke does not have tsukiyomi. Naruto has a bjuu to break him out of genjutsu, can avoid eye contact, can move to fast for Sasuke to catch in genjutsu, has Kage Bunshins, and also has sensing. Naruto is not getting caught in genjutsu. Sasuke's jutsu are all countered while Sasuke can not deal with everything Naruto can throw at him.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 25, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Senpō: chō ōdama rasengan has no feats to actually back up that claim, so it's pretty much just baseless hype. It's the same as Amaterasu being as hot as the Sun, or Itachi's suiton being as fast as the speed of light. It might not be quite as outlandish as that, but it still lacks the feats to properly support that claim. The databooks are meant to be used as a secondary source of information, and even then, aren't very reliable.


I don't see how SM COR being a mountain hollower is in the same boat as amaterasu.  The only reason we say amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun, or itachi's shunshin is as fast as the speed of light is because feats show that amaterasu _isn't_ as hot as the sun, and that itachi's shunshin _isn't_ as fast as the speed of light.  

If we didn't have the feats that *falsify* the hype, then amaterasu would be as hot as the sun and itachi's shunshin would be as fast as the speed of light.  SM COR doesn't fall into the same category of those examples because it hasn't been falsified by any feats, as it has never been used on a natural construct so the databook entry stands unless you want to go and start refuting every databook entry that about every character or jutsu that the manga feats don't prove to be true.

In addition to that, we can support SM COR being a mountain hollower if we scale up the collateral damage of smaller rasengans to the size of COR:

- *here* is the size of the crater sasuke's chidori does to a boulder.
- Sasuke's chidori at that time was weaker than kid naruto's rasengan, so the rasengan should at least do that much damage to the boulder
- the rasengan would be about as big as sasuke's hand/head in that picture
- *this* is the low end of what kishi considers a mountain.  It's about 3 times taller than GM.
- *SM COR* should be at least as large as *GM's head.*

So if you scale the damage of sasuke's chidori vs boulder to SM COR size, it pretty much lives up to its hype of hollowing a mountain.  The biggest assumption being made for my argument is that SM COR would be at least as strong as kid naruto's rasengan, and I think it's a pretty conservative assumption.

then of course, even if you disagreed with all of this, you still have to answer the question: well how powerful IS SM COR?  



Atlantic Storm said:


> That doesn't necessarily mean it would be able to destroy several mountains all at once, though. The explosion we see there, and the explosion we see... pretty much every other time it's used, even in a superior transformation, are of a completely different scale. That's just an outlier as a result of Kishimoto being bad at perspective.


The explosion we see there is a raw explosion akin to an explosive tag, sakura's punch, bee's lariat, deidara's non-C4 bombs etc.  

The explosion we see pretty much every other time is called the "wind sphere" which is waaay more damaging than a raw explosion of the same size.  It would only be an outlier if kishi made the wind sphere half the size of the chibaku tensei crater.  The wind sphere of FRS is just like oonoki's dust release, its damage density is extremely high and thus the AoE of the techniques are much smaller than their actual destructive potential.


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## Ashi (Jun 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't see how SM COR being a mountain hollower is in the same boat as amaterasu.  The only reason we say amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun, or itachi's shunshin is as fast as the speed of light is because feats show that amaterasu _isn't_ as hot as the sun, and that itachi's shunshin _isn't_ as fast as the speed of light.
> 
> If we didn't have the feats that *falsify* the hype, then amaterasu would be as hot as the sun and itachi's shunshin would be as fast as the speed of light.  SM COR doesn't fall into the same category of those examples because it hasn't been falsified by any feats, as it has never been used on a natural construct so the databook entry stands unless you want to go and start refuting every databook entry that about every character or jutsu that the manga feats don't prove to be true.
> 
> ...



You compare using assumptions...:


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 26, 2013)

*FAIR* assumptions. Nothing outlandish.


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 26, 2013)

Has Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on-panel? I need scans to rekindle my memories, NOT assumptions.


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## ueharakk (Jun 26, 2013)

TensaZangetsu10 said:


> You compare using assumptions...:



young brotherin, every comparison is based on assumptions.

KCM Naruto's speed compared to Konohomaru's speed are based on assumptions.  Those would be:
- Ei isn't lieing about being the fastest bar minato
- Konohomaru didn't rabidly increase his speed offpanel
- Konohomaru wasn't holding back his speed throughout the entire manga
- Tsunade wouldn't have been more impressed by Konohomaru's speed than naruto's
- Minato and Naruto dodging Ei's punch at point blank are parallels
- A wormhole didn't randomly spawn in front of naruto before ei's punch hit his face

Most of these are ridiculous, but all are assumptions.  My post is based on many assumptions not just the one I pointed out, but that doesn't mean my comparison is invalid.



αce said:


> So 13 clones are going to run at Sasuke and not get pierced by arrows in the process?



Why would the clones run at sasuke when they're using FRS?  Isn't that a long range technique?  do the clones want to get caught in the wind sphere of their own attack?

Also, for every arrow sasuke fires, he receives 12 FRS (unless he can hit multiple clones with a linear arrow ), and arrows hit clones that have KCM Naruto reactions, are fighting at long distance and have Ei level speed?  probably not.

rest easy though, we all know current EMS Sasuke is KCM Naruto's parallel and with PS he'll be  > BM Naruto.



Krippy said:


> the cancer is spreading
> 
> Sakura was this close when FRS expanded, if that were Kirin she wouldn't be in very good shape
> 
> or alive for that matter


Except in the next chapter, we see FRS actually expanded *far behind her* since it was behind the enton.

And apply that same logic to dust release.  the gokage were *this close* when dust release expanded, if that were C2, they wouldn't be in very good shape.


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## Tohoma (Jun 26, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Has Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on-panel? I need scans to rekindle my memories, NOT assumptions.






He was shown using Tsukiyomi during his fight with Killer Bee.


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## Bonly (Jun 26, 2013)

Tohoma said:


> He was shown using Tsukiyomi during his fight with Killer Bee.



That doesn't prove he used Tsukuyomi in that fight. Sasuke had his EMS on when he used a genjutsu and all was said was "genjutsu sharingan". And if he can have his EMS being up and thats what we get, same can be said for the genjutsu done by MS Sasuke, but there's no way to tell.


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## Illusive Frame (Jun 26, 2013)

Only Itachi can use Tsukuyomi. Sasuke has MS Genjutsu like Madara. Danzo only compared it to Tsukuyomi, saying it's much weaker.


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