# Batman Returns or Batman Forever?



## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2010)

A lot of people love Batman.
Everybody hates Batman & Robin.

What about the two middle films? Which is best?


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## Jon Snow (Jan 11, 2010)

The one with Danny de Vito.


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## Gabe (Jan 11, 2010)

returns for me i liked danny devitto as the penguin and michelle phifer as catwomen. i did not like batman forever.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 11, 2010)

batman returns was more... real

jim carrey did a good riddler though


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## Mr Serenity (Jan 11, 2010)

Why are you even remembering these films when the Batman begins and the Dark Knight beat the crap out of them?


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## Jon Snow (Jan 11, 2010)

Ignorance is bliss, Serenity.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 11, 2010)

Batman Returns. There shouldn't be any contest. Schumacher's Batman films were the worst.


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## John (Jan 11, 2010)

I prefer Returns. Forever was alright but someone should throw tomatoes and lettuce at Schumacher for what he ended up doing with the next one.


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## Gabe (Jan 11, 2010)

tim burton should have been allowed to finish his trilogy


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2010)

Except Returns didn't do well. So business is business.



> Why are you even remembering these films when the Batman begins and the Dark Knight beat the crap out of them?



Because there are other good Batman media outside of thsoe two films?
One could argue both of those films are overrated actually.


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## Mr Serenity (Jan 11, 2010)

The Anti-Existence said:


> Because there are other good Batman media outside of thsoe two films?
> One could argue both of those films are overrated actually.



Dark Knight had the highest box office records of the last decade. So I think their argument would just be a personal opinion that was very rare.


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## Shadow (Jan 11, 2010)

Returns for me because Pfeifer really played catwoman real well


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## -Dargor- (Jan 11, 2010)

~Gesy~ said:


> batman returns was more... real
> 
> jim carrey did a good riddler though


This

Altho I did like O'donell's more mature/darker Robin.



Mr Serenity said:


> Dark Knight had the highest box office records of the last decade.


Didn't *vomit*Twilight*vomit* beat TDK?


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2010)

Not like Box Office sales mean anything anyway.


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## Brian (Jan 11, 2010)

I liked Batman Return much more than Forever, Danny de Vito as the Penguin was amazing, I even I liked it a little more than the first Batman film.


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## Medusa (Jan 11, 2010)

I agree danny as penguin owns!! he is awesome


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## ghstwrld (Jan 11, 2010)

Mistletoe can be deadly if you eat it ...


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## Chee (Jan 11, 2010)

Returns, although I hate it, its still better than Forever.



-Dargor- said:


> This
> 
> Altho I did like O'donell's more mature/darker Robin.
> 
> ...



It only beat its opening day record. Idiotic asshole chicks.


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## Taleran (Jan 11, 2010)

Complete Honesty

I was entertained more by Forever and Batman & Robin than I was by Burton's two films

and Tommy Lee Jones was a better Two Face than Aaron (Two-Face not including his preformance pre transformation)

In fact if I had to make a list of favorite Batman Films it'd go(not including the animated ones)

Begins
60's Movie
TDK
Forever
B&R
Batman
Batman Returns


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## Shark Skin (Jan 11, 2010)

I have mixed feelings on both, but if I had to pick one then it'd be Returns.


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## CrazyMoronX (Jan 11, 2010)

Batman Returns, duh. It gave me erections.


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## Nybarius (Jan 11, 2010)

Jack Nicholson is the best Joker ever, and Danny Devito didn't really match the performance as Penguin, though he looked the part.  The Penguin is supposed to be a bit more dapper and sophisticated, despite the whole fish-eating thing.  This being said, Returns is still clearly the superior film.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 11, 2010)

Nybarius said:


> Jack Nicholson is the best Joker ever, and Danny Devito didn't really match the performance as Penguin, though he looked the part.  The Penguin is supposed to be a bit more dapper and sophisticated, despite the whole fish-eating thing.  This being said, Returns is still clearly the superior film.



and also catwoman had to die 9 times in that movie


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## Nybarius (Jan 11, 2010)

Pfeiffer was hot enough for me to ignore deviation from canon.


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2010)

Batman Returns. I find this movie the best definition that defines Batman mytho in live action. I also like the Art Deco/ grittiness of the city the first two Batman movie had. The city is one of the important aspect of a batman movie and those two captured the movie right. Schumacher films overdid the city and Nolan's were too generic imo.


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## Wesley (Jan 11, 2010)

Keaton's Batman killed people.  Isn't that a bit of a deviation?  He was also less of a playboy and more of an eccentric billionaire recluse.


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## Shark Skin (Jan 11, 2010)

TSC said:


> Batman Returns. I find this movie the best definition that defines Batman mytho in live action. I also like the Art Deco/ grittiness of the city the first two Batman movie had. The city is one of the important aspect of a batman movie and those two captured the movie right. Schumacher films overdid the city and Nolan's were too generic imo.




I agree. Gotham really has to be well defined. I do like that about the first two. One of the things I hated most about Forever and Batman & Robin was that it was too "futuristic" or at least it tried to be. Too many neon lights and such, it just looked crappy. Nolan, unlike the previous movies, uses and actual city (Chicago) w/e some fantasy element, which I think make for a good mix IMO.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2010)

Wesley said:


> Keaton's Batman killed people.  Isn't that a bit of a deviation?



That is one of the things fans dislike most about this film.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jan 11, 2010)

While Returns is arguably more inaccurate, I enjoyed it FAR more than Forever.

Forever was alright, but I still like Burton's Batman movies.


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## Whip Whirlwind (Jan 11, 2010)

I gotta go with forever, although Batman blows it out of the water.

Say what you will, but i really liked The Riddler and Two face from forever. It was definitely campier, but i wouldn't say its bad....it was just fun.


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## ChINaMaN1472 (Jan 11, 2010)

Batman Forever didn't feel dark enough for Batman, especially after watching Burton's.  The acting was all right, but the overall atmosphere of the film just didn't have the Batman aura it should've.


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## Chee (Jan 11, 2010)

> Begins
> *60's Movie*
> TDK



Seriously? 

I was freaked out when Batman started to stare at the camera, in complete silence, for one whole minute after he learned who Catwoman was.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 11, 2010)

Because I like hearing my own voice, er, more like watching my own typing, I shall go into all the Batman films even though I don't have too......links to reviews and all.

Tim Burton's "Batman" is a masterpiece, with vast and superb visuals that weren't only groundbreaking at the time, but they are still wonderful to look at even today. It completely fits the dark, pulp comic book tone that Burton wanted to exploit. So yes, Burton's original film is the ultimate Batman masterpiece........well, until people start talking.

Then those dark visuals are suddenly invaded by unwanted attempts to be funny. While our brain is trying to wrap around this visual and audio assault, we are forced to swallow an unbelievable love story and the fact that Burton is clearly more interested in the villain than the hero......er......While I like Nicholson as the Joker, the material sort of backfires and the result is that the characters is too over-the-top and silly, although he is kind of scary at times. Even though I was initially put off with Keaton as Batman, I've grown to agree with the Nostalgia Critic. Keaton works because he's so subtle and unlike future Batman's, isn't always crying or being emo.

So while "Batman" isn't really a good movie, it is a great looking film. Burton would come back and deliver "Batman Returns", and I thought it was a vast improvement. While the visuals are still strong, either we're used to them or Burton is underplaying them. I suppose the reason I like this is because it's clearly a tragedy. The villains are who they are due to the actions of others, making them sympathetic along with being evil. While I remember Chee complaining about the love story, I thought it was fairly affective. Batman and Catwoman are both outcasts with some serious issues. They see that side in eachother, hence begins their love/hate relationship. One of my favorite scenes is when they realize that they've been courting their enemy and are unsure of what to do.

So I love "Batman Returns" because I found it to be a complex emotional war between the characters, and themselves........Although yes, there is some camp(not as much)...making me wonder if Burton really does like camp.

Nevertheless, Burton was given the boot and Joel Schumanameissohardtorememberthatiwontevenbother was to replace him. Joel was actually a pretty good director, delivering "the Lost Boys" and later on, "A Time to Kill". He really messed up on "Batman Forever", although I suspect that he was pressured by the studio to make it cater to younger audiences. 

"Batman Forever" has one thing going for it: It's the first Batman movie to focus more on the character of Batman himself. There are hints that would later be exploited by Batman Begins, but its too bad that the rest sucks. The characters are mostly one-dimensional and the actors playing them overact. The love interest makes the love interest from the first film NOT LOOK SHALLOW. But the worst aspect of it was that this was made in the mid-90's, when CGI was becoming more and more popular. The result is that it ages poorly. Unlike Tim Burton, who used actual sets, Joel whored CGI like it's no tomorrow. Maybe it worked at the time, but it's aged badly. It looks like CGI, very dated CGI.

He'd later ruin it even more with "Batman and Robin", which went too far in being corny and while the CGI works a bit better here, it lacks the affect of the original films.

Then comes Nolan, who delivers "Batman Begins". It was a solid film, albeit a flawed one. The one-liners(stop with the camp!) are annoying and the fight scenes sucked. I wouldn't judge a superhero movie by its fight scenes, but they make Batman a ninja. I expect some good fight scenes for that! But it's still a well made film, with some nice twists, well drawn characters and a superb finale. I think "Batman Returns" is better, but not by much.

He'd later master his craft with "The Dark Knight", easily the best of them. 

So to answer the question: "Batman Returns" rapes "Batman Forever".

Ah, I love flaunting myself.....


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## Wesley (Jan 11, 2010)




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## Chee (Jan 11, 2010)

Gawd damn Martial.


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## Taleran (Jan 11, 2010)

MartialHorror said:


> Then comes Nolan, who delivers "Batman Begins". It was a solid film, albeit a flawed one. The one-liners(stop with the camp!) are annoying and the fight scenes sucked. I wouldn't judge a superhero movie by its fight scenes, but they make Batman a ninja. I expect some good fight scenes for that! But it's still a well made film, with some nice twists, well drawn characters and a superb finale. I think "Batman Returns" is better, but not by much.



Yeah the Ninja stuff is all part of his origin, why do you expect good fight scenes when the people he is fighting after Ninja training are just mooks he intends to threaten and surprise?


Oh and yeah part of the reason I dislike the first 2 is because of Burton




			
				Chee said:
			
		

> Seriously?
> 
> I was freaked out when Batman started to stare at the camera, in complete silence, for one whole minute after he learned who Catwoman was.



for reals, TDK was much too long is just dragged and it wasn't a Batman film sure there was the Joker but it didn't feel like Batman more like some swat guy wearing a Cowl


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## Gabe (Jan 11, 2010)

i think Keaton was a better batman then Bale. the3 voice bale makes make me laugh all the time.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2010)

> I dislike the first 2 is because of Burton



What about him?


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## Wesley (Jan 11, 2010)

The Anti-Existence said:


> What about him?



Do you really need to ask why someone would have a problem with Burton?  The man made an animated film about a man marrying his rotting, zombie girlfriend.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2010)

So? That's just his style. Whether you like it or not, he's very good at it. 
His more Gothic take on Batman was pretty interesting, I thought


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## Taleran (Jan 11, 2010)

So it should be obvious that other people would not enjoy it then. Directors like Burton and Nolan their films aren't able to escape the same style so you have a good idea of what to expect going into it.


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## Wesley (Jan 11, 2010)

The Anti-Existence said:


> So? That's just his style. Whether you like it or not, he's very good at it.
> His more Gothic take on Batman was pretty interesting, I thought



Right.  His style.  It's very distinct and it's not like he has any other.  If someone says they have a problem with Burton, it's going to be for that reason.

Naturally, it's just a matter of taste.  Personally, I don't have a major beef with him, but I can understand why someone wouldn't like him.  Over-the-top dark and creep and all that.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 11, 2010)

Taleran said:


> Yeah the Ninja stuff is all part of his origin, why do you expect good fight scenes when the people he is fighting after Ninja training are just mooks he intends to threaten and surprise?
> 
> 
> Oh and yeah part of the reason I dislike the first 2 is because of Burton
> ...



I dont expect amazing choreography, but I've seen good fight scenes where the villains are just everyday thugs who get owned once. Bruce Lee did it a lot, Chuck Norris did it a lot............Even non-martial arts fighters like Michelle Yeoh can do it, so Bale has no excuse.

But I dont blame Bale. I blame either Nolan or his DOP. The fight scenes were almost always out-of-focus and done with that irritating shaky cam style bullshit that NEVER WORKS IN ACTION FILMS.

Most of the Batman movies have lame fight scenes....Oddly, "Batman Forever" probably has the best of them("The Dark Knight" might top it.....I just remember thinking that B3 had surprisingly decent fights while TDK didn't have bad fights like its predecessor).....But "Batman Begins" was made in the post-Jackie Chan/Jet Li era where some effort was actually put into the choreography........Unfortunately, it was also made in the post-Bourne Identity era where effort was made to distort the fight scenes.

As for Burton only having a gothic style, "Ed Wood" sort of went against it and "Planet of the Apes" is nothing like his other films.


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## Taleran (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah and Planet of the Apes was shit so doesn't that do more to show the whole one style thing?


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## Nybarius (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow Martialhorror, I have given that same screed about shakycam fights countless times.  Right on.  One quibble: is it really fair to compare Bale to Michelle Yeoh, when Yeoh had ballet training from an early age?


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## Taleran (Jan 11, 2010)

The only movie where shaky cam action got to me was Quantum of Solace


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## MartialHorror (Jan 11, 2010)

Taleran said:


> Yeah and Planet of the Apes was shit so doesn't that do more to show the whole one style thing?



lol, but I dont blame Burton for its failure. I blame the bland script, bland actors(oddly, the monkey people stole the show in terms of acting...not that its hard to upstage Mark Wahlberg), blander characters and a lame-ass attempt at a twist ending. 

Burton's directing wasn't great, but I think he did well with what shit he had to work with. 

Nybarious: As I said, I dont blame Bale. Bale, from what I saw, did fine. Yeoh was a bad comparison(plus, hong kong tends to be better at fights in general), but I've seen guys like DMX or LL Cool J(damn it, now all I can think of are rappers) as well as Matt Damon, among others, do pretty good fight scenes even though they arent martial artists. The thing is, the directors can often make them look good.

Christopher Nolan SUCKED in that regard. The fighting was so shaky and disorienting that I had difficulty telling who was winning during the very first fight. Luckily, he learned his lesson for TDK. The fight scenes in that movie weren't good, but they were good enough for it not to be a problem.

I don't expect Batman to go Jackie Chan on their asses. But I expect that the camera makes him to be a believable fighter.

Now, at times, the crazy camerawork kind of works.....like when Batman is taking out a lot of those guys by surprise...As the hand held camera shit is meant to disorient us, it has a purpose. But the fact that ALL the fights are like that shows that Nolan was simply inexperienced at that type of action.

But once again, he got better. His newest film actually looks like it has some awesome fights.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2010)

Why people gotta be hatin' on Burton? I loved Sleepy Hollow.


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## Gabe (Jan 11, 2010)

i like the style of burtons movies like beetlejuice, batman, batman returns, crybaby, nightmare before christmas, ed wood, Mars Attacks, Charley and the Chocolate Factory, edward scissorhands and others.  beetlejuice being my favorite along with both batman movies


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## Shark Skin (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm usually mixed on Burton's work. I liked Batman, but didn't like Batman Returns as much.


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## Chee (Jan 11, 2010)

I didn't like how Batman tried to help Catwoman after he punched her. Such an idiotic move, Batman would never do that.


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## Mikaveli (Jan 11, 2010)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Batman Returns, duh. It gave me erections.



Basically I concur with this gentleman here.


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## TSC (Jan 12, 2010)

As for Tim Burton, He's not a bad director and he has made decent amount of movies. I think the problem people have on him is his recurring cast and his constant theme choice. Sure it's cool do some gothic/halloween stuff like Nightmare Before Christmas etc, But when you tempt to implicate gothic themes in other movies, it start to become noticed by audience, and think that you can ONLY do that type of stuff.
He also tends to use a lot of the same type of actors/actresses in his movies like his wife or Johnny Depp. It makes it seems like his actor choices is very limited and not diverse.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 12, 2010)

Well Depp is an awesome actor and a friend of Burton's.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 12, 2010)

TSC said:


> As for Tim Burton, He's not a bad director and he has made decent amount of movies. I think the problem people have on him is his recurring cast and his constant theme choice. Sure it's cool do some gothic/halloween stuff like Nightmare Before Christmas etc, But when you tempt to implicate gothic themes in other movies, it start to become noticed by audience, and think that you can ONLY do that type of stuff.
> He also tends to use a lot of the same type of actors/actresses in his movies like his wife or Johnny Depp. It makes it seems like his actor choices is very limited and not diverse.



To be fair, Scorsase is the same way. He generally casts the same people and has the same thermes.


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