# Mihawk vs. Kuzan



## trance (Aug 7, 2014)

Location: Alabasta

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 100m


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## Raiden34 (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan wins everytime. Mihawk is close to admiral level, but he is not at admiral level.


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## Bohemian Knight (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan extreme diff; I'll say 13 out of 20 times. People need to stop reading so much into this Mihawk-Shanks shit. Mihawk and Shanks were a good enough match for each other to come back for frequent duels. Both are more or less admiral level. Mihawk can hang people.


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 7, 2014)

Just going by their abilities I'd say Kuzan is the best match up for Mihawk out of the C3. Mihawk has shown to be capable of destroying large amounts of Kuzan's ice with one swing. If Kuzan tries to attack Mihawk with molded weapons this shouldn't work given Mihawk's high weapon mastery. Kuzan's best shot is Ice Time but I doubt a fight between two people of such caliber would end because of a one shot like that. Going with Mihawk high diff. I see a distance fight happening and it will take a lot of effort given Kuzan's high defensive capabilities (Logia mastery, speed, Haki).


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 7, 2014)

Aokiji: Went from the scaffold to hundreds of feet above Marineford in the blink of an eye to freeze tsunamis, helped his fellow Admirals block Whitebeard's quake with Haki, fought against the Strongest Man in the World (even when old and injured Whitebeard was a monster), gained a temporary edge over him despite having the DF disadvantage, and Jozu felt like he had to step in and save his captain. The best Jozu dealt Aokiji was one bloody lip, then when it was Aokiji's turn, he took Jozu's arm. And in the ten day battle for the title of Fleet Admiral, he narrowly lost to Akainu, but gave him severe injuries, and changed Punk Hazard's climate as a side effect.

Mihawk: Threw a slash that got blocked by Jozu, sliced an iceberg in half, then got held off by Vista, who proceeded to fight on even grounds with Mihawk for a time. We don't even know how strong Mihawk and Shanks were at the time of their duels and it's not likely their growth rates were the same.

So...Aokiji wins high diff. Not extreme diff, just high diff.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 7, 2014)

This would be a short fight. Both of them can possibly take each other out with one move. Can mihawk block his freezing attacks with his sword?


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 7, 2014)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> This would be a short fight. Both of them can possibly take each other out with one move. Can mihawk block his freezing attacks with his sword?



I don't think it can be blocked. The way I see it it has to be avoided or interrupted.


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## Luke (Aug 7, 2014)

Aokiji wins with extremely high difficulty.


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## Monster (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan wins extreme diff.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 7, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> I don't think it can be blocked. The way I see it it has to be avoided or interrupted.



Ice Time requires Aokiji to touch his opponent no? Mihawk has shown to be able to dice buggy in an instant, and also have higher perceptiveness, which should make it dangerous for Aokiji to go close. If he tries something like the Ice time capsule or ice ball, maybe mihawk can block it with his sword.

Aokiji has shown to have pretty good speed though. 

Gonna give it to aokiji more times than not, but it's going to be pretty close.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan wins high to very high diff  Mihawk can't beat any Yonko or Admirals unless its fuji or  that other new guy


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## Amol (Aug 7, 2014)

Anybody who can beat Kuzan have overall strength similar to Akainu.
I refused to believe that Mihawk is Akainu's equal. This is one of the reasons I think Kuzan wins high maybe extreme diff.


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## Arkash (Aug 7, 2014)

Can go either way.


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## Orca (Aug 7, 2014)

Could go either way.


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## Suit (Aug 7, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Aokiji: Went from the scaffold to hundreds of feet above Marineford in the blink of an eye to freeze tsunamis, helped his fellow Admirals block Whitebeard's quake with Haki, fought against the Strongest Man in the World (even when old and injured Whitebeard was a monster), gained a temporary edge over him despite having the DF disadvantage, and Jozu felt like he had to step in and save his captain. The best Jozu dealt Aokiji was one bloody lip, then when it was Aokiji's turn, he took Jozu's arm. And in the ten day battle for the title of Fleet Admiral, he narrowly lost to Akainu, but gave him severe injuries, and changed Punk Hazard's climate as a side effect.
> 
> Mihawk: Threw a slash that got blocked by Jozu, sliced an iceberg in half, then got held off by Vista, who proceeded to fight on even grounds with Mihawk for a time. We don't even know how strong Mihawk and Shanks were at the time of their duels and it's not likely their growth rates were the same.
> 
> So...Aokiji wins high diff. Not extreme diff, just high diff.





I definitely second this post. Everything I wanted to say about the subject, nothing more, nothing less.


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## King plasma (Aug 7, 2014)

I have to say say Kuzan cuz Mihawk is relatively feat-less.


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## Furinji Saiga (Aug 7, 2014)

Mihawk with high-extreme difficulty.


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## Ghost (Aug 7, 2014)

I'd say Mihawk extreme diff.


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## Krippy (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan high-extreme diff.


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## Sablés (Aug 7, 2014)

Mihawk High-diff

A few things here:



Issho D Tea said:


> helped his fellow Admirals block Whitebeard's quake with Haki,



Aiding two other Admirals in blocking an air quake (which logically weakens with distance due to the nature of the attack) is not impressive.



> fought against the Strongest Man in the World (even when old and injured Whitebeard was a monster), gained a temporary edge over him despite having the DF disadvantage



Where? I don't recall Aokiji ever placing WB in an uncomfortable position. If you're referring to freezing his Bisento, Whitebeard could have simply quaked him away before Jozu interfered.



> and Jozu felt like he had to step in and save his captain.



You mean like how Jozu had to step in to protect Whitebeard from  Mihawk's first slash? Quite the double standard.



> Mihawk: Threw a slash that got blocked by Jozu, sliced an iceberg in half, then got held off by Vista, who proceeded to fight on even grounds with Mihawk for a time. We don't even know how strong Mihawk and Shanks were at the time of their duels and it's not likely their growth rates were the same.



I see no reason to bring up his clash against Vista, Brook made it clear that similarities in swordsmanship styles can result in a quick battle regardless of equality. There is no reason why the reverse cannot be true. And I really like how downplayed Mihawk splitting that Iceberg several feet into the air like it wasn't among the most destructive feats in the manga matched only by the other Admirals/Yonkou.

Shanks lost an arm and would logically need to compensate to regain his strength with greater effort and time. Mihawk would have grown in a linear fashion with no such handicap. Plausibility favors Mihawk's ascension here.


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## RF (Aug 7, 2014)

Mihawk wins after a hard fight.


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## RF (Aug 7, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Aokiji: Went from the scaffold to hundreds of feet above Marineford in the blink of an eye to freeze tsunamis, helped his fellow Admirals block Whitebeard's quake with Haki, fought against the Strongest Man in the World (even when old and injured Whitebeard was a monster), gained a temporary edge over him despite having the DF disadvantage, and Jozu felt like he had to step in and save his captain. The best Jozu dealt Aokiji was one bloody lip, then when it was Aokiji's turn, he took Jozu's arm. And in the ten day battle for the title of Fleet Admiral, he narrowly lost to Akainu, but gave him severe injuries, and changed Punk Hazard's climate as a side effect.
> 
> Mihawk: Threw a slash that got blocked by Jozu, sliced an iceberg in half, then got held off by Vista, who proceeded to fight on even grounds with Mihawk for a time. We don't even know how strong Mihawk and Shanks were at the time of their duels and it's not likely their growth rates were the same.
> 
> So...Aokiji wins high diff. Not extreme diff, just high diff.



Selective reading at its finest.


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## Lawliet (Aug 7, 2014)

Mihawk wins this eventually. Kuzan is a dangerous opponent to fight, but Mihawk is the superior.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 7, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Aokiji: Went from the scaffold to hundreds of feet above Marineford in the blink of an eye to freeze tsunamis, helped his fellow Admirals block Whitebeard's quake with Haki, fought against the Strongest Man in the World (even when old and injured Whitebeard was a monster), gained a temporary edge over him despite having the DF disadvantage, and Jozu felt like he had to step in and save his captain. The best Jozu dealt Aokiji was one bloody lip, then when it was Aokiji's turn, he took Jozu's arm. And in the ten day battle for the title of Fleet Admiral, he narrowly lost to Akainu, but gave him severe injuries, and changed Punk Hazard's climate as a side effect.
> 
> Mihawk: Threw a slash that got blocked by Jozu, sliced an iceberg in half, then got held off by Vista, who proceeded to fight on even grounds with Mihawk for a time. *We don't even know how strong Mihawk and Shanks were at the time of their duels and it's not likely their growth rates were the same.*
> 
> So...Aokiji wins high diff. Not extreme diff, just high diff.



Exactly. For example, Teach gave Shanks a scar to his eye, but after that Shanks has grown much stronger. While Teach needed a logia to grown.


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## Lawliet (Aug 7, 2014)

> We don't even know how strong Mihawk and Shanks were at the time of their duels and it's not likely their growth rates were the same.



Exactly, Mihawk's growth rate is much better than Shanks.
When Mihawk was on his journey to become the WSS, Shanks was on a journey against Sea Kings. We all know what happened to Shanks with the sea king.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 7, 2014)

I don't get what the big deal is about Mihawk can someone please explain to me why Mihawk is so overrated?


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## Raiden34 (Aug 7, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I don't get what the big deal is about Mihawk can someone please explain to me why Mihawk is so overrated?



Lol. Yeah, I think its related to Zoro... They think Zoro will become new Rayleigh so Mihawk must be powerful as Rayleigh, but no. Zoro will defeat Mihawk, so he will surpass Mihawk, Zoro won't be on his tier.


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## Extravlad (Aug 7, 2014)

Mihawk extreme difficulty.


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## Datassassin (Aug 7, 2014)

Could go either way but I think Mihawk would win more times than not.


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## Shanks (Aug 7, 2014)

Based on hype and portrayal, The final goal of the absolute strongest man in the world in history's first mate isn't going to lose to Kuzan.


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## Dunno (Aug 7, 2014)

Mihawk wins this somewhere around the higher echelon of high diff I'd say. Let me explain my reasoning: 

1. Mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman. Simply put, it means that he has more than 50% chance of winning against any swordsman. This is a fact, can't really be disputed unless you disagree with Oda.

2. Shanks is a swordsman. This is an opinion based on the fact that he's only used swords every time we've seen him clash, that he has swords on his Jolly Roger and that he used to duel another swordsman in the past. This is not a fact, but quite plausible in my opinion.

3. Shanks is stronger than Aokiji. An opinion based on hype for the most part. We haven't really seen Shanks fight that much, but he seems really strong with the whole clashing with WB thing and stopping the war. Also not a fact, but plausible.

Add in Mihawk being Zoro's final goal and he has quite the strong case, even if one can never be entirely sure.


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## Magician (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan wins high diff.

The guy whose gonna be used as a hype tool for Shiliew is not winning this...


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## Lawliet (Aug 7, 2014)

> The guy whose gonna be used as a hype tool for Shiliew is not winning this...



Yeah, about that... 



It's not gonna happen


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## Luke (Aug 7, 2014)

I didn't realize Oda posted on this forum.


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## Lawliet (Aug 7, 2014)

Didn't realize you all knew Oda and he told you Shillew is taking Mihawk down after he named a whole chapter about him and Zoro "the vow"


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## King plasma (Aug 7, 2014)

lmao the amount of bull shit in this thread.

>Shiliew killing Mihawk?
>Shanks and Mihawk not close in power

Get your facts straight dumb fucks.


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## Extravlad (Aug 7, 2014)

Sakazuki/Mihawk > Shanks/Kuzan


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## Shanks (Aug 7, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> I didn't realize Oda posted on this forum.



Acutally, he does. Here's his profile:






*Spoiler*: __


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## Magician (Aug 7, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I don't get what the big deal is about Mihawk can someone please explain to me why Mihawk is so overrated?



Cause people are obsessed with emotionless "badass" mary sues with no character that could've been written by 3 year olds.



Master Luke said:


> I didn't realize Oda posted on this forum.



Live in the flesh.


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## Kaiser (Aug 7, 2014)

Looks like a flame war started. What did you do Starkiller? 

Either way it could go either way. I put them at around the same level in terms of character strength but there is nothing to go by for sure at the moment. Zoro can't be fixated to one day surpass this guy if he isn't at least as strong as admirals


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## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2014)

They're pretty much on the same level. I'd slightly favor Mihawk. Seems like it could be a fairly good matchup for him.


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## King plasma (Aug 7, 2014)

Let's ignore facts than.


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## Luke (Aug 7, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Live in the flesh.



Can you answer me one question then, Oda?


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## Hachibi (Aug 7, 2014)

Mihawk has almost no feat 

It could go either way, tho I favor Kuzan 6/10


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## Ruse (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan wins with high diff. 

I'd place perform him above Mihawk any day


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## Canute87 (Aug 7, 2014)

Kuzan wins.

Got nothing to back it up with, just my opinion.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Aug 8, 2014)

I think it could go either way extreme diff. Kuzan is someone who is 95% evenly matched with Sakazuki, who is one of Luffy's EoS opponents. Mihawk is Zoro's EoS opponent and Zoro should be just a bit behind Luffy, therefore either way makes sense to me. Edging it to Kuzan just because i don't like Mihawk and Kuzan is my favorite admiral.


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm going with Mihawk on this one. People seem to give Kuzan the nod because he fought Akainu to extreme diff and thus they think Aokiji is automatically stronger than Mihawk. Sorry to burst some people bubbles, but Mihawk has hypes on par with Yonkou and arguably the strongest of Yonkou left in Shanks. 

MLanga and Oda stated that Mihawk and Shanks fought many time as equal and until stated otherwise they are on a general similar level whether some people like it or not. Mihawk is Yonkou level which to be honest have even more hypes than Admirals.

Mihawk takes this extreme diff.

And how did Mihawk go from whether he can defeat Shanks to being unable to defeat an Admiral let alone not be on their level  This forum is wishy washa sometimes


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 8, 2014)

Mihawk is comparable to Akainu. Mihawk wins extreme diff. though.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 8, 2014)

Captain Altintop said:


> *Mihawk is comparable to Akainu.* Mihawk wins extreme diff. though.



Care to explain how ?

Mihawk's only feat is his title... 

One shotted Daz Bones, stalemated with Vista, stopped by Crocodile, missed Luffy hundred times ;




maupp said:


> *MLanga and Oda stated that Mihawk and Shanks fought many time as equal and until stated *otherwise they are on a general similar level whether some people like it or not. Mihawk is Yonkou level which to be honest have even more hypes than Admirals.



According to this logic, non-devil fruit user Teach was equal to Shanks as well.... Since Mihawk didn't even gave scar to Shanks, Teach did...


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 8, 2014)

Mihawk's title and his past should be still hype enough to put him at least on par with admirals. Otherwise u should quit reading One Piece.


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## Canute87 (Aug 8, 2014)

Captain Altintop said:


> Mihawk is comparable to Akainu. Mihawk wins extreme diff. though.



Aokiji is pretty much equal to Akainu.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

Someone please am still waiting for an explanation for why Mihawk is so overrated


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## Amol (Aug 8, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Someone please am still waiting for an explanation for why Mihawk is so overrated



Thing is Zoro wants to be WSS. Zoro is also first mate of future Pirate King. So considering Mihawk is current WSS people scales him to the Prime Rayleigh level (Pirate King's first mate ) who in his old age is still match for Admiral Kizaru. Hence by this Mihawk should be stronger than Kuzan.
But I disagree.
*Mihawk is not Zoro's last opponent.* In final war Zoro is not going to sit idle . He will fight someone. And considering it is going to be last fight it will also be the toughest. If Zoro is already Prime Rayleigh level by then (because he must beat Mihawk before war,Series ends after it)
Zoro will simply crush his opponent. So I believe Zoro will reach Prime Rayleigh level in his final fight which makes sense considering Luffy will also reach Roger's level after defeating BB in final fight.
Hence in short we can't scale Mihawk to Prime Rayleigh level and for that he looses against Kuzan with extreme diff .


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

^^It's no one's fault if you lack reading comprehension and fail to interpret Author portrayal and other things going on in the manga. No one has any obligation to understand the manga for you and explain to you some things that are meant to be easy to understand and interpret by children.

Just do some effort, reread the manga properly(this time with some focus) then maybe, just maybe you'll understand a few things going on in this manga for children


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## Amol (Aug 8, 2014)

maupp said:


> ^^It's no one's fault if you lack reading comprehension and fail to interpret Author portrayal and other things going on in the manga. No one has any obligation to understand the manga for you and explain to you some things that are meant to be easy to understand and interpret by children.
> 
> Just do some effort, reread the manga properly(this time with some focus) then maybe, just maybe you'll understand a few things going on in this manga for children



I am the third person you have attacked personally. You have right to have different opinion so do I. The level of maturity you are displaying for having different opinions is childish and only thing you will accomplish is ignore list . So if you have brain then make a proper argument to counter mine instead of personal insults. You are worse than troll.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

Amol said:


> Thing is Zoro wants to be WSS. Zoro is also first mate of future Pirate King. So considering Mihawk is current WSS people scales him to the Prime Rayleigh level (Pirate King's first mate ) who in his old age is still match for Admiral Kizaru. Hence by this Mihawk should be stronger than Kuzan.
> But I disagree.
> *Mihawk is not Zoro's last opponent.* In final war Zoro is not going to sit idle . He will fight someone. And considering it is going to be last fight it will also be the toughest. If Zoro is already Prime Rayleigh level by then (because he must beat Mihawk before war,Series ends after it)
> Zoro will simply crush his opponent. So I believe Zoro will reach Prime Rayleigh level in his final fight which makes sense considering Luffy will also reach Roger's level after defeating BB in final fight.
> Hence in short we can't scale Mihawk to Prime Rayleigh level and for that he looses against Kuzan with extreme diff .



Thanks for clearing it up for me I also agree it makes no sense that Mihawk is stronger than the C3


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## Raiden34 (Aug 8, 2014)

Mihawk is not much better than Vista, isn't it ?

[YOUTUBE]ExU_AZxAdoE[/YOUTUBE]

And admirals / marco / jozu > vista


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

Amol said:


> I am the third person you have attacked personally. You have right to have different opinion so do I. The level of maturity you are displaying for having different opinions is childish and only thing you will accomplish is ignore list . So if you have brain then make a proper argument to counter mine instead of personal insults. You are worse than troll.


. Learn to read properly, my post was addressed to that "PirateHunterEddy" guy("^^" means 2 posts above). so before you get your jimmies rustled and such, pay attention next time


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## Amol (Aug 8, 2014)

maupp said:


> . Learn to read properly, my post was addressed to that "PirateHunterEddy" guy("^^" means 2 posts above). so before you get your jimmies rustled and such, pay attention next time



Learn to use QUOTE than ambiguous signs . No one here has time to interpret them for you	 . And that guy just asked a normal question.Just because he is newbie, there is no need to be aggressive with him.


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

@Amol: Dude I can use whatever method i want if I wish to reply to someone. whether it may be by quoting someone or using these signs(^^) are up to me. So instead of trying to tell me how to reply to someone, why don't you just admit you misinterpreted things and made a mistake. You even went as far as negging me for nothing, talk about getting mad 

As for the poster in question, well first of all that's between me and him and if you don't like  what I wrote to him then keep away and leave it to the mods to handle. And that guy posts have been a lot troll like hence my reply to him. And what this about him being Newbie and such, I don't even 

Again next time, read a post carefully before you jump to conclusion and start negging people


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## Hachibi (Aug 8, 2014)

There's no need to be a dick to him just because he asked why Mihawk is overrated


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

@Hachibi94: think you guys haven't realized how much this guy trolls around this forums. Heck I see people go around insome thread asking why x character is overrated or underrated, but asking such questions isn't an issue in itself. The guy in question goes around thread and keep asking this question even when sometimes it has nothing to do with the point of a thread. 

Basically he's somehow stuck with this Mihawk trolling in every thread he posts. Go check in the Akainu-Yonkou thread and you'll see this guy bringing this same Mihawk shit despite not having anything to do with that thread. He's been on this Mihawk stuff for some times and repeating the same things in every thread he post which is why I felt my reply was appropriate for the kind of troll he was being. 

Dude maybe a Mihawk hater, but need to tone it down and stop lurking in thread just to spout the same lines about Mihawk.


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## StrawHat4Life (Aug 8, 2014)

Let's stay on topic please and avoid these petty little squabbles. 

Anyway Mihawk takes this with high-extreme difficulty. Zoro's end goal foe won't be losing even to an Admiral.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

maupp said:


> ^^It's no one's fault if you lack reading comprehension and fail to interpret Author portrayal and other things going on in the manga. No one has any obligation to understand the manga for you and explain to you some things that are meant to be easy to understand and interpret by children.
> 
> Just do some effort, reread the manga properly(this time with some focus) then maybe, just maybe you'll understand a few things going on in this manga for children



Theres no Potrayal that Puts Mihawk above the Admirals.
Mihawk is Zoro's ultimate goal that does not mean that he is Automatically stronger than everyone because as much as he is Zoro's goal the story is not about Zoro its about Luffy. In His fight with Don Chinjao Chinjao stated that if Luffy wanted to be pirate king he would have to surpass the Admirals and The Yonko that statement tells me that Yonko's>=Admirals>Mihawk .

Mihawk himself stated that the road to becoming PK is much Harder than WGS that should obviously tell us that there is more people(6 Or 7) stronger than Mihawk. Based purely on portrayal i would say that Mihawk is slighlty below the C3. 

1.The Yonko are suppose to be the 4 strongest pirates in the world Mihawk is also a Pirate so does that not mean they are stronger?

2. The Admirals are suppose to be the direct answer to the Yonko 

3. During MF Mihawk wanted to test the difference between him and Whitebeard but was intercepted by his Subordinate now if  other Yonko crew members are comparable to that and the captains are comparble and are of the same rank of whitebeard that should tell us that Yonko>Mihawk even though the margin might not be that big.

4. I know the Admirals  also had to deal with whitebeards subordinates but they also got to fight Whitebeard  and showed they where able to keep up which is a much better feat than  what Mihawk as shown so far 

Do this take way the C3's rank and Mihawks title but keep everyone else's title we know so far in the series and tell me based on what we have seen so far that u wouldn't say Kuzan would beat Mihawk high diff if they fought


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## Ruse (Aug 8, 2014)

How does been Zoro's EoS goal automatically put him above an Admiral?


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## Hachibi (Aug 8, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> How does been Zoro's EoS goal automatically put him above an Admiral?



This gonna turn either a Shanks vs Mihawk thread or a Yonko vs Admiral thread 

or both


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## monkey d ace (Aug 8, 2014)

by what we know, aokigi.
by the EOS hype, the one who's practically equal to luffy's EOS opponent.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> How does been Zoro's EoS goal automatically put him above an Admiral?



You Didn't read what i said i said just because his Zoro's ultimate goal is no reason to put him above everyone else


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 8, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> How does been Zoro's EoS goal automatically put him above an Admiral?



The usual chain of thoughts:


Basis:


(A) Luffy wants to become Pirate King
(B) Old Rayleigh is slighty below Admirals
(C) Surpassing Mihawk is Zoro's goal
(D) Zoro is Luffy's right hand man


Conclusions:


(A) => Luffy is going to be at least as strong as Roger =: (E)
(B) => Prime Rayleigh is above the Admirals =: (F)
(C) => EOS Zoro vs Mihawk would be an extreme diff fight =: (G)

(D) + (E) => Zoro is going to be at least as strong as Prime Rayleigh =: (H) 

(F) + (H) => EOS Zoro is above the Admirals (somewhat noticeable gap) =: (I)

(G) + (I) => *Mihawk is above the Admirals*


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## Ruse (Aug 8, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> You Didn't read what i said i said just because his Zoro's ultimate goal is no reason to put him above everyone else



I wasn't talking about your post.


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

EoS opponent of zoro put him Top tier because won't be fighting some scrub as obstacle to achieve his manga main goal . 

What, did some people seriously thing Oda was going to have Zoro EoS oppont any less that Admiral level . Or am I to understand Zoro will end this manga as only a high tier. 

And do people seriously believe in all of OPverse there are no top tier swordman? If you think zoro who is expected to end as a top tier EoS greatest opponent and obstacle to his main goal isn't top tier then I don't know where it all went wrong .


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## Hachibi (Aug 8, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> You Didn't read what i said i said just because his Zoro's ultimate goal is no reason to put him above everyone else



You clearly misunderstood his post, he basically said that because Mihawk is the final (or on of the finals) opponent of Zoro in end of series doesn't automatically put him above a admiral 

Also @Maupp: you don't need to be Admiral/Yonko level to be top tier and imo Mihawk is near-admiral level


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> You clearly misunderstood his post, he basically said that because Mihawk is the final (or on of the finals) opponent of Zoro in end of series doesn't automatically put him above a admiral



OHHHH my bad am just so tired of seeing a thread with Mihawk and the only reason he ever wins is beacuse " I'll be shocked if Zoro's Eos goal iznt stronger than this guy"


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> I wasn't talking about your post.



My bad then


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## Sablés (Aug 8, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> How does been Zoro's EoS goal automatically put him above an Admiral?



It really doesn't and I find speculation of this nature to be worthless. Mihawk being an EoS goal means he'll likely be among the strongest but so are the Admirals. Anyway, Kuzan has the more concrete feats however Mihawk's hype/powerscaling and fighting style places him somewhat above for me.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 8, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> Let's stay on topic please.= and avoid these petty little squabbles.
> 
> Anyway Mihawk takes this with high-extreme difficulty. Zoro's end goal foe won't be losing even to an Admiral.



Well-written and thoroughly unbiased post.


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

Aokiji very high diff.
His feats are better even if Mihawk's hype is comparable.





HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Well-written and thoroughly unbiased post.



I hope this is sarcasm.




monkey d ace said:


> by what we know, aokigi.
> by the EOS hype, the one who's practically equal to luffy's EOS opponent.




You see Shanks being Luffy's final opponent? How do you figure that'll work?
And wouldn't that mean Luffy would fail to surpass Whitebeard even in his old age?




StrawHat4Life said:


> Let's stay on topic please.= and avoid these petty little squabbles.
> 
> Anyway Mihawk takes this with high-extreme difficulty. Zoro's end goal foe won't be losing even to an Admiral.




I don't see the logic in this post. You said yourself that when you say "endgoal foe," you aren't referring to Mihawk being Zoro's very last opponent. If that's the case, how can you flatly say that Mihawk won't be losing to an admiral when "Zoro's end goal foe" determines only vaguely indicates a power level. 

Even if you believe that Mihawk being WGS means he's Shanks' superior (which as we've seen hundreds of times is debatable), I don't understand how it must immediately follow that Mihawk is stronger than the admirals.


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## StrawHat4Life (Aug 8, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> How does been Zoro's EoS goal automatically put him above an Admiral?



It puts him at equal to or slightly greater than. I really don't see the difference to be honest since it'll be a tough fight for both.


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> It puts him at equal to or slightly greater than. I really don't see the difference to be honest since it'll be a tough fight for both.



How many people can we safely  bet on being stronger than Aokiji/Akainu: EOS Blackbeard, EOS Luffy, EOS Zoro maybe, EOS Shiliew maybe, and Old Whitebeard. If that's the how few people are above the admirals and that's how close the people at the top are to the admirals, then Zoro's second to last or even third to last opponent (if we even accept it as fact that they'll be fighting at all, which I consider debatable) isn't automagically given enough hype to lift him above the likes of Aokiji/Akainu.


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## Hachibi (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> How many people can we safely  bet on being stronger than Aokiji/Akainu: EOS Blackbeard, EOS Luffy, EOS Zoro maybe, EOS Shiliew maybe, and Old Whitebeard. If that's the how few people are above the admirals and that's how close the people at the top are to the admirals, then Zoro's second to last or even third to last opponent (if we even accept it as fact that* they'll be fighting at all,* which I consider debatable) isn't automagically given enough hype to lift him above the likes of Aokiji/Akainu.



Inb4 Shiliew theory


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> Inb4 Shiliew theory



I don't think Shiliew will be defeating Mihawk if that's what you're implying.


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## Amol (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> How many people can we safely  bet on being stronger than Aokiji/Akainu: EOS Blackbeard, EOS Luffy, EOS Zoro maybe, EOS Shiliew maybe, and Old Whitebeard. If that's the how few people are above the admirals and that's how close the people at the top are to the admirals, then Zoro's second to last or even third to last opponent (if we even accept it as fact that they'll be fighting at all, which I consider debatable) isn't automagically given enough hype to lift him above the likes of Aokiji/Akainu.



Agree .
People still fail to see that Mihawk is not going to be Zoro's Final Opponent. Mihawk is going to get beaten before Final War. We can't scale Mihawk to EoS Zoro level. 
Being WSS and being FM of Pirate King is two different things . So I see Zoro first becoming WSS and then FM of Pirate King (Prime Rayleigh level).


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

Make no mistake, mihawk being Zoro EoS opponent isn't the only reason why is at least admiral level although it's one of the reason. Mihawk is the WSS and has insane hypes on his side. Until stated otherwise, the manga and Oda says that mihawk and Shanks are rivals that fought countless time and were on similar level. 

We saw what one of mihawk slash could do in MF. And it's funny that some people have conceded that EoS Zoro would be Admiral level yet at the same time say Mihawk isn't Admiral level, it doesn't even make sense unless these are the same people who believe that Mihawk will be used to hype Shilliew .


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

maupp said:


> @Hachibi94: think you guys haven't realized how much this guy trolls around this forums. Heck I see people go around insome thread asking why x character is overrated or underrated, but asking such questions isn't an issue in itself. The guy in question goes around thread and keep asking this question even when sometimes it has nothing to do with the point of a thread.
> 
> Basically he's somehow stuck with this Mihawk trolling in every thread he posts. Go check in the Akainu-Yonkou thread and you'll see this guy bringing this same Mihawk shit despite not having anything to do with that thread. He's been on this Mihawk stuff for some times and repeating the same things in every thread he post which is why I felt my reply was appropriate for the kind of troll he was being.
> 
> Dude maybe a Mihawk hater, but need to tone it down and stop lurking in thread just to spout the same lines about Mihawk.



I never brought up Mihawk in that thread i said that Akainu and the yonkou should be the strongest someone esle then pointed out that Mihawk is stronger which i didn't agree with. I'll admit when it come to Mihawk am bias but my bias is always warranted by something, its also very easy to convince me about arguements because i try to be as objective as possible even when it's including Zoro. If you give me a good reason why Mihawk can beat Aokiji then i will glady agree and admit i was wrong but when reasoning like "I'll be shocked if Mihawk is not stronger than everybody" excuse like really


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

maupp said:


> Mihawk is the WSS and has insane hypes on his side. Until stated otherwise, the manga and Oda says that mihawk and Shanks are rivals that fought countless time and were on similar level.



Mihawk hasn't fought Shanks since he lost his arm. As in, before Shanks became a Yonkou. Cutting that iceberg was impressive but more impressive was Jozu throwing an iceberg. Mihawk doesn't have feats that would justify definitively putting him quite on par with the likes of Aokiji or Akainu.


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## StrawHat4Life (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> How many people can we safely  bet on being stronger than Aokiji/Akainu: EOS Blackbeard, EOS Luffy, EOS Zoro maybe, EOS Shiliew maybe, and Old Whitebeard. If that's the how few people are above the admirals and that's how close the people at the top are to the admirals, then Zoro's second to last or even third to last opponent (if we even accept it as fact that they'll be fighting at all, which I consider debatable) isn't automagically given enough hype to lift him above the likes of Aokiji/Akainu.



As long as Mihawk holds the title that Zoro is gunning for then he will be waiting as an end goal foe. It's not debatable in the slightest. Let's pretend that Mihawk will be Zoro's third or second to last foe. It would still put Mihawk on the same level as an Admiral. Unless you assume that power levels will radically inflate at the very end.



tanman said:


> Mihawk hasn't fought Shanks since he lost his arm. As in, before Shanks became a Yonkou. Cutting that iceberg was impressive but more impressive was Jozu throwing an iceberg. Mihawk doesn't have feats that would justify definitively putting him quite on par with the likes of Aokiji or Akainu.



Is Shanks an end goal opponent?


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> As long as Mihawk holds the title that Zoro is gunning for then he will be waiting as an end goal foe. It's not debatable in the slightest. Let's assume that Mihawk will be Zoro's third or second to last foe. it would still put Mihawk on the same level as an Admiral. Unless you assume that power levels will radically inflate in a very short amount of time.



Well, it _is_ debatable. Zoro vowing to defeat somebody who holds a particular title is no more of a guarantee than Luffy vowing to go after someone like Akainu, Shanks, or Blackbeard. Relationships can grow and develop. The future of this manga isn't set in stone, but the past of this manga is. Ultimately, what you consider to beyond debate is speculation, a plausible speculation but speculation nonetheless.

But then to say that Mihawk can be Zoro's second to last or third to last foe and that that can justify putting him on par with the likes of Akainu, then it's very clear that you're imagining a very specific scenario playing out where Mihawk far surpasses the minimum required of someone with that kind of hype. If your power level placement of Mihawk is reliant entirely on a specific situation playing out with no actual ground in past hype or feats, then it just can't be taken seriously the same way we take other arguments seriously.



StrawHat4Life said:


> Is Shanks an end goal opponent?



Well, yes if you'd like to see him that way. Considering this  and this 

But if that's not the answer you were looking for,  respond as if I gave the answer to that rhetorical question that best reveals your point because I'm more interested in the point you were trying to make.


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## Sablés (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> Mihawk hasn't fought Shanks since he lost his arm. As in, before Shanks became a Yonkou. Cutting that iceberg was impressive but more impressive was Jozu throwing an iceberg. Mihawk doesn't have feats that would justify definitively putting him quite on par with the likes of Aokiji or Akainu.



Mihawk is already stronger than Old Rayleigh who appears to lose out to the Admirals only in stamina and versatility. At the very least he's on-par with an Admiral via powerscaling. This along with owning a title shared only by two other Yonkou and being the equal of one in the past is more than enough evidence to support his status, relatively speaking. It's surely a hell of a lot more concrete than some top-tier arguments.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 8, 2014)

Mihawk wins. 

Only Dragon and maybe Akainu is stronger.


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Mihawk is already stronger than Old Rayleigh who appears to lose out to the Admirals only in stamina and versatility. At the very least he's on-par with an Admiral via powerscaling. This along with owning a title shared only by two other Yonkou and being the equal of one in the past is more than enough evidence to support his status, relatively speaking. It's surely a hell of a lot more concrete than some top-tier arguments.



An admiral =/= these admirals
I'm referring to the argument that his hype indicates he is equal or above Aokiji/Akainu. I'm not saying he isn't a "top tier." Aokiji and Akainu are no doubt stronger than Kizaru, and Rayleigh had only a short clash with Kizaru. So there's enough wiggle room for me to place characters between Aokiji and a retired old Rayleigh.


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## Magician (Aug 8, 2014)

I say Mihawk is roughly around Marco and Rayleigh level but strong enough to edge them out. But would still get high diffed by the C3.

He's definitely top tier but not at all at the top of the bracket.



tanman said:


> Aokiji and Akainu are no doubt stronger than Kizaru



Why do you say that?


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## Sablés (Aug 8, 2014)

Nothing supports Kizaru being weaker than the other members of the Colored Trio. Considering that Akainu and Kuzan fought for such a lengthy period, the decisive factor was likely due to resolution (something Sakazuki has in spades) or circumstance. In terms of tangible strength, they were dead equals and Borsalino was portrayed in a similar light (pun intended? ). Kizaru's feats against Whitebeard are actually better than Aokiji's and his DF is the most difficult to handle of the 3, IMO.


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

Main Reasons:
> Better feats.
> Aokiji and Akainu being impossibly close in power.
> More plot relevance.



Sabl?s said:


> Nothing supports Kizaru being weaker than the other members of the Colored Trio. Considering that Akainu and Kuzan fought for such a lengthy period, the decisive factor was likely due to resolution (something Sakazuki has in spades) or circumstance. In terms of tangible strength, they were dead equals and Borsalino was portrayed in a similar light (pun intended? ). Kizaru's feats against Whitebeard are actually better than Aokiji's and his DF is the most difficult to handle of the 3, IMO.



Well, we know Akainu is stronger than Aokiji, so the entire C3 being equals theory has been dismantled by Jinbe. The words Jinbe used very specifically indicated that they weren't "dead equals." The length of the fight was likely greatly extended by elemental equivalency like with Jinbe and Ace.

Kizaru's feats are nice, but Akainu's overall feats are better and Aokiji's AOE is distantly better than either of them. Stack that with the fact that we know Aokiji and Akainu are very close in power and Kizaru being the third strongest is the obvious result.


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## trance (Aug 8, 2014)

The only Admiral I can definitely see beating Mihawk is Sakazuki but after an extremely difficult fight. Kuzan vs. Mihawk can go either way IMO but I'd lean towards Mihawk.


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## StrawHat4Life (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> Well, it _is_ debatable. Zoro vowing to defeat somebody who holds a particular title is no more of a guarantee than Luffy vowing to go after someone like Akainu, Shanks, or Blackbeard. Relationships can grow and develop. The future of this manga isn't set in stone, but the past of this manga is. Ultimately, what you consider to beyond debate is speculation, a plausible speculation but speculation nonetheless.
> 
> But then to say that Mihawk can be Zoro's second to last or third to last foe and that that can justify putting him on par with the likes of Akainu, then it's very clear that you're imagining a very specific scenario playing out where Mihawk far surpasses the minimum required of someone with that kind of hype. If your power level placement of Mihawk is reliant entirely on a specific situation playing out with no actual ground in past hype or feats, then it just can't be taken seriously the same way we take other arguments seriously.



I'm not here to argue what if's. I'm here to tell you _what is_. When that little intro box appeared below Mihawk proclaiming him to be the WSS, it became no more debatable than WB being considered the WSM. Mihawk's placement is not speculation or hype. It's the author's own direct portrayal. Like it or not he is the man standing in Zoro's way.  

Mihawk is a top tier by virtue of being Zoro's end goal foe, which would mean he's on par with or above an Admiral. What exactly is the disconnect here?  



tanman said:


> Well, yes if you'd like to see him that way. Considering this  and this
> 
> But if that's not the answer you were looking for,  respond as if I gave the answer to that rhetorical question that best reveals your point because I'm more interested in the point you were trying to make.



Shanks is a benchmark on Luffy's road to becoming Pirate King. Mihawk _is_ the benchmark and end goal for Zoro. See the difference?


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> When that little intro box appeared below Mihawk proclaiming him to be the WSS, it became no more debatable than WB being considered the WSS. Mihawk's placement is not speculation or hype. It's the author's own direct portrayal. Like it or not he is the man standing in Zoro's way.
> 
> Mihawk is a top tier by virtue of being Zoro's end goal foe, which would mean he's on par with or above an Admiral. What exactly is the disconnect here?




The disconnect? I'll demonstrate the disconnect by breaking down the argument that you just made.

Mihawk is the WSS. True.
*So*
Mihawk's power level is obvious. Semi-truth.

*Spoiler*: __ 



WSS isn't a power level. It's a title. He can probably range anywhere from Marco/Rayleigh's level to Whitebeard's level. But evidence is required to state as fact that this means he's as strong as or stronger than Aokiji.





Mihawk is a "top tier" by virtue of being Zoro's end goal foe. True.
*So*
He's on par with or he's above an admiral. False.

Do you see the disconnect now?



StrawHat4Life said:


> Shanks is a benchmark on Luffy's road to Pirate King. Mihawk _is_ the benchmark and end goal for Zoro. See the difference?



There's no more finality to Zoro's pledge to defeat the WGS. And the minimum hype we can give EOS Luffy (Old Whitebeard) is a lot more than the minimum hype we can give to EOS Zoro (Marco).  

You keep saying "end goal" as if it has some powerful meaning, but when it can be any of Zoro's last three opponents it really doesn't. To think that Shanks wouldn't be above or as strong as one of Luffy's last three opponents is silly unless you believe there's a huge unexplored realm of power.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 8, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Nothing supports Kizaru being weaker than the other members of the Colored Trio. Considering that Akainu and Kuzan fought for such a lengthy period, the decisive factor was likely due to resolution (something Sakazuki has in spades) or circumstance. In terms of tangible strength, they were dead equals and Borsalino was portrayed in a similar light (pun intended? ). *Kizaru's feats against Whitebeard are actually better than Aokiji's *and his DF is the most difficult to handle of the 3, IMO.



Agree.

[YOUTUBE]wkqZU0DoNs4[/YOUTUBE]


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

@Tanman: Dude you're being bias on your assessment of both luffy and Zoro goals in rapport to Mihawk. You're basically using Shanks and co as example to which luffy goal can change when in reality luffy ultimate goal is being PK and nothing less. 

You can't seriously compare Shanks to luffy with Mihawk to Zoro. Luffy goal is being PK and that won't change, it the main plot of the series, just like becoming the WSS is Zoro main goal and that would never change. It's almost define Zoro character and his goal. 

Oda won't just toss aside Zoro main plot in the story to the side and turn a corner like some people(like you) are trying to make it out. It won't just happen Mihawk become any less than what the author has portrayed and intended him to be since the early stage of the manga. 

It's fairly well established that Mihawk is Zoro end game until proven otherwise. He hold the title of the WSS, something Zoro a main character is gunning for. He's made a vow to achieve that goal and one day surpass Mihawk and reach his goal of becoming WSS. There is even a whole chapter called "vow" fer chrissakes. 

There is absolutely no reason for people to start believing Oda will just change what he's established very well since early in the manga and go another direction with the mihawk-Zoro situation.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman needs to stop posting for a while its embarassing how you can write so much without grasping the point:

Mihawk > Kuzan


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## King plasma (Aug 8, 2014)

Tanman's logic is skewed. 

WB=Luffy
Marco=Zoro

lel.


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

maupp said:


> @Tanman: Dude you're being bias on your assessment of both luffy and Zoro goals in rapport to Mihawk. You're basically using Shanks and co as example to which luffy goal can change when in reality luffy ultimate goal is being PK and nothing less.
> 
> You can't seriously compare Shanks to luffy with Mihawk to Zoro. Luffy goal is being PK and that won't change, it the main plot of the series, just like becoming the WSS is Zoro main goal and that would never change. It's almost define Zoro character and his goal.



If you follow the argument I never said: "Hey, guys. Shanks and Luffy have the same relationship as Mihawk and Zoro!"

I was asked whether that Shanks is an endgoal foe, and I responded with an argument that he could be viewed that way to demonstrate the pointlessness of using this to gauge to Mihawk's power level based off however we arbitrarily view Zoro growing. The point is that neither relationship is "final." Do you believe Mihawk will be Zoro's very last opponent? Do you believe Shanks will be Luffy's very last opponent? If your answer to both questions was no, congratulations, you have excellent foresight. So that's why calling Mihawk an "end goal foe" doesn't necessitate some particular power level.



maupp said:


> Oda won't just toss aside Zoro main plot in the story to the side and turn a corner like some people(like you) are trying to make it out. It won't just happen Mihawk become any less than what the author has portrayed and intended him to be since the early stage of the manga.



You're arguing against a strawman. The "some people (like you)" that you're describing have nothing to do with me. And the fact that you presume to speak for Oda's future actions and Oda's intentions just further illuminates why your argument is broken. I have no interest in removing Mihawk from whatever pedestal that Oda has put him on. I have an interest in avoiding rampant upwards speculation regarding his power level based off of imagined future battles and scenarios.



maupp said:


> It's fairly well established that Mihawk is Zoro end game until proven otherwise. He hold the title of the WSS, something Zoro a main character is gunning for. He's made a vow to achieve that goal and one day surpass Mihawk and reach his goal of becoming WSS. There is even a whole chapter called "vow" fer chrissakes.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason for people to start believing Oda will just change what he's established very well since early in the manga and go another direction with the mihawk-Zoro situation.



Zoro vowed to defeat the WGS, which is an important distinction to make. Nowhere did he vow that he would stop fighting after he defeated or surpassed Mihawk. We already know that Zoro holds Luffy's goals in higher regard to his own. 

But to treat a future fight as fact and to ignore the possibility of circumstances changing, Mihawk becomes Zoro's mentor and Fujitora vows to dismantle the shichibukai, is frankly useless in a discussion of power levels.  

*And the larger and much more important point is that even if you believe that Mihawk is Zoro's very last opponent, which SH4L conceded  (and I hope you to will concede) will probably not be the case, that still doesn't properly justify a particular placement beyond what we already know his power to be.
*

Please don't use me to vent your hatred of people who don't see Mihawk's future the same way you do. Because that's entirely besides the point.






King plasma said:


> Tanman's logic is skewed.
> 
> WB=Luffy
> Marco=Zoro
> ...



I never said that. Reread my post.



HisMajestyMihawk said:


> tanman needs to stop posting for a while its embarassing how you can write so much without grasping the point:
> 
> Mihawk > Kuzan



So the point is basically "I'm right, and you're wrong." 
Pretty embarrassing that I didn't see that genius logic.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Aug 8, 2014)

So what if Mihawk was supposed to rival Shanks? What makes you think Shanks didn't get stronger prior to losing an arm? People are saying Sakazuki is the only admiral who can beat down Mihawk but Kuzan is basicly equal to Akainu. Oda had to chose someone to win, if he really wanted to tell you Sakazuki was so much stronger it wouldn't have been a 10 day fight. Sorry but Mihawk is not beating someone who is basicly equal to Luffy's EoS opponent. Plus Mihawk's only good feat/hype is WSS.


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## King plasma (Aug 8, 2014)

> There's no more finality to Zoro's pledge to defeat the WGS. And the minimum hype we can give EOS Luffy (Old Whitebeard) is a lot more than the minimum hype we can give to EOS Zoro (Marco).



I don't really believe in parallels, but Roger ~ Luffy Rayleigh ~ Zoro is allot more accurate than WB ~ luffy Marco ~ Zoro.


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## StrawHat4Life (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> The disconnect? I'll demonstrate the disconnect by breaking down the argument that you just made.
> 
> Mihawk is the WSS. True.
> *So*
> ...



The title and Zoro's desire to obtain it give us all the information we need to properly gauge Mihawk's general level. You admit that Mihawk's strength could range from Marco/Rayleigh to Whitebeard. Where would you put the Admirals on that spectrum then? Because Rayleigh is certainly on par with the Admirals, Marco perhaps slightly less so.  By the way I'm of the opinion that all top tiers (putting aside Roger and prime WB) are strong enough to give each other very tough fights. They're all roughly on par with each other as I see it. 



tanman said:


> There's no more finality to Zoro's pledge to defeat the WGS. And the minimum hype we can give EOS Luffy (Old Whitebeard) is a lot more than the minimum hype we can give to EOS Zoro (Marco).
> 
> You keep saying "end goal" as if it has some powerful meaning, but when it can be any of Zoro's last three opponents it really doesn't. To think that Shanks wouldn't be above or as strong as one of Luffy's last three opponents is silly unless you believe there's a huge unexplored realm of power.



I believe that EOS Luffy will surpass Roger. So a better analogue for EOS Zoro would be prime Rayleigh. Achieving the title of WSS carries very powerful meaning. It symbolizes Zoro's life's dream. Once he has achieved that goal his personal arc in the story will be fulfilled. Any part he plays beyond that will be in defending the title and supporting his crewmates. Zoro's end goal foe can't be marginalized as merely one rung on a long ladder. Mihawk symbolizes the final rung of that ladder, period, and will continue to as long as he holds the title of WSS.


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## StrawHat4Life (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> *And the larger and much more important point is that even if you believe that Mihawk is Zoro's very last opponent, which SH4L conceded  (and I hope you to will concede) will probably not be the case, that still doesn't properly justify a particular placement beyond what we already know his power to be.
> *



I didn't concede that Mihawk wasn't likely to be Zoro's very last opponent in the narrative. He might very well be or not. Who knows. I was merely pointing out that even if the battle occurs third or second to last, Mihawk would still be of comparable level with an Admiral, or stronger.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

Is the title of Admiral and Yonko>WGS?


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

StrawHat4Life said:


> The title and Zoro's desire to obtain it give us all the information we need to properly gauge Mihawk's general level. You admit that Mihawk's strength could range from Marco/Rayleigh to Whitebeard. Where would you put the Admirals on that spectrum then? Because Rayleigh is certainly on par with the Admirals, Marco perhaps slightly less so.  By the way I'm of the opinion that all top tiers (putting aside Roger and prime WB) are strong enough to give each other very tough fights. They're all roughly on par with each other as I see it.




Mihawk's "general" level?
So has your argument has transformed into "Mihawk could be stronger or weaker than Aokiji, but it would be very close fight." If so, I can agree to that with the addendum that Aokiji's better feats suggest we should lean towards him for now. But previously you indicated that Mihawk was *at least* as strong as Aokiji.

I consider Marco to be just as if not more on par with Kizaru than Rayleigh in his old age. This is a result of Marco fighting all three admirals and doing quite well, being hyped as a candidate for Yonkou, and Marco still (appearing to be) rather young.


I don't consider a tier system to be very effective for describing power levels in One Piece. But here's a map of how I see things. One greater-than-sign indicates extreme difficulty, two indicates very high, three indicates moderately high, etc. the same applies if the signs are separated by a character.  EOS Luffy > Roger ~ Prime Whitebeard ~  EOS Blackbeard > Old Whitebeard ~ EOS Zoro > Akainu ~ Prime Rayleigh > Aokiji ~ Garp > Kizaru ~ Mihawk > Marco ~ Old Rayleigh 

So, under your definition of top tiers (which it sounds like has Marco at the bottom), I agree with the claim that all such top tiers would give at least somewhat high difficulty to each other. I never argued otherwise.




StrawHat4Life said:


> I believe that EOS Luffy will surpass Roger. So a better analogue for EOS Zoro would be prime Rayleigh. Achieving the title of WSS carries very powerful meaning. It symbolizes Zoro's life's dream. Once he has achieved that goal his personal arc in the story will be fulfilled. Any part he plays beyond that will be in defending the title and supporting his crewmates. Zoro's end goal foe can't be marginalized as merely one rung on a long ladder. Mihawk symbolizes the final rung of that ladder, period, and will continue to as long as he holds the title of WSS.





King plasma said:


> I don't really believe in parallels, but Roger ~ Luffy Rayleigh ~ Zoro is allot more accurate than WB ~ luffy Marco ~ Zoro.



The operative word in my comparison to the WB pirates was "minimum." 


Don't "period" me. No period for you. Mihawk symbolizes the final rung on Zoro's swordsman ladder. Sure. But again, I wasn't arguing that he didn't. Nor was I arguing that Mihawk isn't a "top tier" (under your definition). I was only arguing that the presumption that Mihawk must therefore be at least as strong is Aokiji is flatly false and he doesn't have the feats to support it.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Aug 8, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Is the title of Admiral and Yonko>WGS?




Yes, until feats prove otherwise.


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## Lawliet (Aug 8, 2014)

@tanman


> WSS isn't a power level. It's a title. He can probably range anywhere from Marco/Rayleigh's level to Whitebeard's level. But evidence is required to state as fact that this means he's as strong as or stronger than Aokiji.



As you said, WSS is a title, and not a power level and he could possible range from anything to Marco to WB right?

Then let me ask you this, and I want you to think and answer honestly before you jump and make any posts. when you answer this question, think of it from a story point of view. 

Besides Mihawk, how many well renowned/strong/top tier swordsmen you think are out there? The head of the wano country, the guy from the groseries, top yonkou crew mates... Etc

I want you to think about this question from a story point of view. It's not logical not to have few top tier swordsmen in the one piece universe when the most used weapon in that universe are swords, right?

Then let me remind you that, those who you thought of, and could possibly be top tier swordsmen (wano leader...etc) are all below Mihawk by default.

This is not my opinion, this is not me saying who I like the most and who I prefer the most. These are facts given to us by Oda.

If the guy who stands above ALL swordsmen in the one piece universe is not even SOLID admiral level, wouldn't that be pathetic for the swordsmen community in one piece? Oda is not that kind of a writer.


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## Suit (Aug 8, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> This gonna turn either a Shanks vs Mihawk thread or a Yonko vs Admiral thread
> 
> or both



Shanks > Mihawk

Yonkou ~= Admirals

The Yonkou and Admirals' power is absolute. They are the top of the top. Period. Also, Mihawk is the WG's little bitch while Shanks is ruling territory in the new world. Mihawk shows up to MF, he's told to fight. Shanks shows up to MF, and Mihawk is the first to haul ass, followed by the rest of the marines, BB's crew, and the Shichibukai.

Kuzan fought for ten days and changed the climate of an island. His late title puts him above any and all who aren't:

A) An Admiral
B) A Yonkou
C) Any character that becomes stronger as the story progresses. In other words, characters with potential

One has to fall into one of these categories to even theoretically defeat Kuzan. I don't see Mihawk fitting any of those, so he is a no-go. Kuzan high-diffs and Mihawk returns to the kitchen because Shanks wants a sandwich.


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Yes, until feats prove otherwise.



Nope. None of these titles demonstrate a power level. They demonstrates superiority over individuals, and then we extrapolate power levels.





oOLawlietOo said:


> *If the guy who stands above ALL swordsmen in the one piece universe is not even SOLID admiral level*, wouldn't that be pathetic for the swordsmen community in one piece? Oda is not that kind of a writer.




Not really to the bolded. WSS, despite superiority over all these people, doesn't necessitate a particular level of power like that. Nor does WSC or WMDM. WSC indicates superiority over Marco. WMDM indicates superiority over Sabo. And similarly, WSS indicates superiority over Rayleigh. But no more, no less.

When you say solid admiral level, you mean someone like Marco, right?


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## Hachibi (Aug 8, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Shanks > Mihawk
> 
> Yonkou ~= Admirals
> 
> ...



I'm surprised you digged my old post :sanji


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## Orca (Aug 8, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Shanks > Mihawk
> 
> Yonkou ~= Admirals
> 
> ...



Dragon would bitch slap Kuzan.


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## Suit (Aug 8, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Dragon would bitch slap Kuzan.



Can't say that for sure just yet. I would like for Dragon to be that strong, but we've seen nothing yet.


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## Orca (Aug 8, 2014)

Trust me. I talked to Oda.


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## Lawliet (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> Not really to the bolded. WSS, despite superiority over all these people, doesn't necessitate a particular level of power like that. Nor does WSC or WMDM. WSC indicates superiority over Marco. WMDM indicates superiority over Sabo. And similarly, WSS indicates superiority over Rayleigh. But no more, no less.



You're basically saying what I'm saying in different words. Rayleigh IS one of the people you could think of as a top tier swordsman. 



> When you say solid admiral level, you mean someone like Marco, right?



Not really. Marco fits more into low top tier. Solid top tier is those top tiers who give each other extreme difficulty. Basically the admirals, yonkou, Mihawk, Garp, and maybe more in the future. Marco in 1 vs 1 won't give these people an extreme difficulty, a Lucci vs Luffy type of fight.


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## Sablés (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> Well, we know Akainu is stronger than Aokiji, so the entire C3 being equals theory has been dismantled by Jinbe. The words Jinbe used very specifically indicated that they weren't "dead equals." The length of the fight was likely greatly extended by elemental equivalency like with Jinbe and Ace.



Elemental equivalency plays little role at this level, I  imagine. Had they, Aokiji should have been at a severe disadvantage against Akainu (Lava > Ice) which would subsequently make the former out to be by far the stronger of the two for lasting so long. If a fight between individuals can span throughout such a lengthy period of time, then brute force cannot be the decisive factor in judging the winner. That's common sense.



> Kizaru's feats are nice, but Akainu's overall feats are better and Aokiji's AOE is distantly better than either of them. Stack that with the fact that we know Aokiji and Akainu are very close in power and Kizaru being the third strongest is the obvious result.



Kizaru punked Whitebeard and evaded without a scratch whereas his companions weren't quite as adept. Actually, Kizaru was the only Admiral to escape unscathed in the war despite taking on top-tiers.


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## Typhon (Aug 8, 2014)

Kuzan high or extreme diff. Mihawk being an end game opponent for Zoro isn't enough for me to claim he can beat Kuzan who's pretty much equal to someone who is an end game opponent for Luffy.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> @tanman
> 
> 
> As you said, WSS is a title, and not a power level and he could possible range from anything to Marco to WB right?
> ...



You know its Quite possible that Shanks>Mihawk my reasoning is you have a prominent new world swordsman like Vista who has been there most probably since the roger era yet his 1st encounter with Mihawk was at  MF, Another is Shilew he def isnt Mihawk level but if you scale to Mallegen that should make him also quite a good challenge for Mihawk(low-mid-diff fight) yet another swordsman who has never challenged Mihawk before . That tells me that there is a strong possibility that shanks could be above Mihawk yet the title of WGS does not interest him... But that just my theory


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## tanman (Aug 8, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Elemental equivalency means little role at this level, I  imagine. Had elemental powers played a role, Aokiji should have been at a severe disadvantage against Akainu (Lava > Ice) which would subsequently make the former out to be by far the stronger of the two for lasting so long. If a fight between individuals can span throughout such a lengthy period of time, then brute force cannot be the decisive factor in judging the winner. That's common sense.



I don't know what makes you think Lava > Ice. Hell, I seriously doubt that Water > Fire in the OPverse. It seems clear to me that when powers directly clash like fire/water and magma/ice, Oda has chosen not to tap into such obvious elemental superiorities instead going for not-so-intuitive things like Magma > Fire. That's what I mean when I say "elemental equivalency." Their powers directly clash in some way and that extends the fight beyond any normal length. Since it's happened twice now, I think we can call it a trend. 

Considering Aokiji lost a leg, I think brute force did indeed win out in the end. The way Jinbe phrased, it sounded like a victory in power, not resolve. Knowing Aokiji, I suspect he was giving the fight everything he had considering he was fighting for the future of the marines.




Sabl?s said:


> Kizaru punked Whitebeard and evaded without a scratch whereas his companions weren't quite as adept. Actually, Kizaru was the only Admiral to escape unscathed in the war despite taking on top-tiers.



Yes. Kizaru was hard to hit in that war, but I think it goes without saying that Akainu put himself at the center of things and ultimately came out with better feats. 

> Taking off half of Whitebeard's face
> No selling Marco and Vista
> Taking what appeared to be the most powerful CQC attack Whitebeard used.
> Taking on Whitebeard's entire command
> Killing Ace
> Turning half an island into magma country
> Sublimating a huge iceberg instantaneously
> Stopped Whitebeard's bisento


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## Kaiser (Aug 8, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> You know its Quite possible that Shanks>Mihawk my reasoning is you have a prominent new world swordsman like Vista who has been there most probably since the roger era yet his 1st encounter with Mihawk was at  MF, Another is Shilew he def isnt Mihawk level but if you scale to Mallegen that should make him also quite a good challenge for Mihawk(low-mid-diff fight) yet another swordsman who has never challenged Mihawk before . That tells me that there is a strong possibility that shanks could be above Mihawk yet the title of WGS does not interest him... But that just my theory


Because Mihawk is the strongest swordsman doesn't mean he fought every swordsmen in the entire world. Whitebeard didn't fight everyone in the entire ocean(i'm pretty sure he didn't even fight some yonkous), but he is considered as the strongest because of his strength, feats and accomplishments. It's the same thing with Mihawk

Mihawk titles puts him above any swordsmen. He either defeated the previous strongest swordsman to receive this title or accomplished a feat that put him above any other swordsmen. The fact Vista never fought Mihawk before simply implies there are stronger swordsmen in the world than Vista


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 8, 2014)

Blake said:


> Because Mihawk is the strongest swordsman doesn't mean he fought every swordsmen in the entire world. Whitebeard didn't fight everyone in the entire ocean(i'm pretty sure he didn't even fight some yonkous), but he is considered as the strongest because of his strength, feats and accomplishments. It's the same thing with Mihawk
> 
> Mihawk titles puts him above any swordsmen. He either defeated the previous strongest swordsman to receive this title or accomplished a feat that put him above any other swordsmen. The fact Vista never fought Mihawk before simply implies there are stronger swordsmen in the world than Vista



That's true but Whitebeard is also consider the strongest because he has Fought Against the PK equally just like how Mihawk use to fight against shanks equally i guess


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## barreltheif (Aug 8, 2014)

Whether you're the WSM has nothing to do with how many people you've fought. You're the WSM because you would beat anyone in a fight, not because you have actually beaten them. Same for WSS.


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## Suit (Aug 8, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> You know its Quite possible that Shanks>Mihawk my reasoning is you have a prominent new world swordsman like Vista who has been there most probably since the roger era yet his 1st encounter with Mihawk was at  MF, Another is Shilew he def isnt Mihawk level but if you scale to Mallegen that should make him also quite a good challenge for Mihawk(low-mid-diff fight) yet another swordsman who has never challenged Mihawk before . That tells me that there is a strong possibility that shanks could be above Mihawk yet the title of WGS does not interest him... But that just my theory





PirateHunter Eddy said:


> That's true but Whitebeard is also consider the strongest because he has Fought Against the PK equally just like how Mihawk use to fight against shanks equally i guess



That's a great argument. However, it falls on incompetent ears unfortunately. Mihawk fans are no different than Itachi fans. They'll support their favorite character because having 0 personality is just so cool to not wank.


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## Roronoa-zoro (Aug 8, 2014)

Vista, who is close to a low top-tier was surprised that Mihawk knew him, and I don't think the 2nd or 3rd strongest swordsman in the OP-verse would say that to the WSS.

That's why, there must be swordsmen in the world who are between Vista and Mihawk, which makes them at least low top-tiers. 
So, I don't see whats so shocking about Mihawk - who is the end goal of the manga for Zoro - being a top-tier.

Anyway, I consider Mihawk pretty much equal with the color trio, I say its a tie.


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## Mihawk (Aug 8, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Just going by their abilities I'd say Kuzan is the best match up for Mihawk out of the C3. Mihawk has shown to be capable of destroying large amounts of Kuzan's ice with one swing. If Kuzan tries to attack Mihawk with molded weapons this shouldn't work given Mihawk's high weapon mastery. Kuzan's best shot is Ice Time but I doubt a fight between two people of such caliber would end because of a one shot like that. Going with Mihawk high diff. I see a distance fight happening and it will take a lot of effort given Kuzan's high defensive capabilities (Logia mastery, speed, Haki).



I can get behind this honestly. 

Personally, I'm putting my money on Mihawk at extreme difficulty, though as he should be more or less on par with the C3. 

Unlike the Admirals whom can be compared amongst one another, no one can say with absolute clarity where Mihawk stands. Depending on how Oda decides to handle him, his upside or ceiling is still completely unknown. For all we know, his power can range from anywhere as being as strong as the first mates or even the Yonko themselves.


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## Extravlad (Aug 8, 2014)

> That's why, there must be swordsmen in the world who are between Vista and Mihawk, which makes them at least low top-tiers.


Shanks,Rayleigh and Fujitora.


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## Sablés (Aug 8, 2014)

tanman said:


> I don't know what makes you think Lava > Ice. Hell, I seriously doubt that Water > Fire in the OPverse. It seems clear to me that when powers directly clash like fire/water and magma/ice, Oda has chosen not to tap into such obvious elemental superiorities instead going for not-so-intuitive things like Magma > Fire. That's what I mean when I say "elemental equivalency." Their powers directly clash in some way and that extends the fight beyond any normal length. Since it's happened twice now, I think we can call it a trend.



Oda seemed to follow the basic logic that sand was weak to water, I see no reason why he wouldn't think the same of Lava and Ice. Hell, he made a point of Sakazuki overpowering Ace's logia attribute precisely because Lava burns hotter than flame.




> Considering Aokiji lost a leg, I think brute force did indeed win out in the end. The way Jinbe phrased, it sounded like a victory in power, not resolve. Knowing Aokiji, I suspect he was giving the fight everything he had considering he was fighting for the future of the marines.



Not that I don't trust you word on it, have a link for that? Aokiji losing a leg could have been result of many things. I'm sure I don't need to explain to you why power isn't the only way to win a fight. If Akainu was stronger than Aokiji, even marginally. Their battle wouldn't have lasted nearly that long; Sakazuki would have overpowered him, simple as that.



> Yes. Kizaru was hard to hit in that war, but I think it goes without saying that Akainu put himself at the center of things and ultimately came out with better feats.
> 
> > Taking off half of Whitebeard's face
> > No selling Marco and Vista
> ...



Most of these feats are on a scale Kizaru can/did replicate



> >Taking on Whitebeard's entire command
> > Turning half an island into magma country
> .



The former is a blatant outlier and the latter took place over the span of a 10 day battle. Either way, I'm not about to get off-topic. I agree with the sentiment that Kuzan has better feats than Mihawk however Lucasia and Unclear Justice already provided an argument for why I believe the swordsman would win out after an extremely difficult fight.


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## Lawliet (Aug 8, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> You know its Quite possible that Shanks>Mihawk my reasoning is you have a prominent new world swordsman like Vista who has been there most probably since the roger era yet his 1st encounter with Mihawk was at  MF, Another is Shilew he def isnt Mihawk level but if you scale to Mallegen that should make him also quite a good challenge for Mihawk(low-mid-diff fight) yet another swordsman who has never challenged Mihawk before . That tells me that there is a strong possibility that shanks could be above Mihawk yet the title of WGS does not interest him... But that just my theory



Just like WB isn't the WSM? Or Dragon not the most wanted man? They have these titles for a reason, the title is not something physical and can be held and protected. If the majority if the OP thought Shanks is a better swordsman they would call him the WSS and not Mihawk.


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## trance (Aug 9, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Is the title of Admiral and Yonko>WGS?



It depends on who holds the title tbh.

Not all Emperors and Admirals are equal. He could be slightly weaker than some and vice versa. They're all on the same general bracket of strength, though, or at least they should be.


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 9, 2014)

Poerhaps there is a very simple answer to the question why we don't know other prominent swordsmen that fought Mihawk before: There were prominent swordsmen in the past but those who fought Mihawk all died and Oda won't introduce them to us until we get Mihawk's backstory.


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## Suit (Aug 9, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Poerhaps there is a very simple answer to the question why we don't know other prominent swordsmen that fought Mihawk before: There were prominent swordsmen in the past but those who fought Mihawk all died and Oda won't introduce them to us until we get Mihawk's backstory.



Somehow I feel like that's a load of BS, but okay. We'll see.


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## Sablés (Aug 9, 2014)

Not really if you changed your viewpoint.

Fact of the matter is Vista by Mihawk's admission is a world renownked swordsman yet has never encountered Mihawk prior to Marineford indicating that the latter did not necessarily have to beat every strong swordsman to gain the title of WSS.

What truly matters here is that whatever trial Mihawk had undertaken to achieve his title; it was grand enough where he would irrefutably be considered the best and a feat which none of the others could compare to. I surmise Mihawk just had to defeat the previous WSS Kenpachi style.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 9, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Just like WB isn't the WSM? Or Dragon not the most wanted man? They have these titles for a reason, the title is not something physical and can be held and protected. If the majority if the OP thought Shanks is a better swordsman they would call him the WSS and not Mihawk.



Go read my post after that i said its just a theory but WB was given that title because he has been know to fight on equal grounds with the PK just like how Mihawk use to challenge Shanks to a duels and was on equal footing with him


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## Raiden34 (Aug 9, 2014)

tanman said:


> I don't know what makes you think Lava > Ice. Hell, I seriously doubt that Water > Fire in the OPverse. It seems clear to me that when powers directly clash like fire/water and magma/ice, Oda has chosen not to tap into such obvious elemental superiorities instead going for not-so-intuitive things like Magma > Fire. That's what I mean when I say "elemental equivalency." Their powers directly clash in some way and that extends the fight beyond any normal length. Since it's happened twice now, I think we can call it a trend.
> 
> Considering Aokiji lost a leg, I think brute force did indeed win out in the end. The way Jinbe phrased, it sounded like a victory in power, not resolve. Knowing Aokiji, I suspect he was giving the fight everything he had considering he was fighting for the future of the marines.
> 
> ...



Killing Ace is because of devil fruit hierarchy not because of his skills.

Both Kizaru & Aokiji stopped Wb's bisento as well.

Not entire Wb's command, Ace - Jozu - Thatch was not there. Only Marco and Vista can make different against admiral, others are non-factor.


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## trance (Aug 9, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> Killing Ace is because of devil fruit hierarchy not because of his skills.



In stats, Sakazuki is vastly superior to Ace in each and every one.


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## monkey d ace (Aug 9, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> Killing Ace is because of devil fruit hierarchy not because of his skills.
> 
> Both Kizaru & Aokiji stopped Wb's bisento as well.
> 
> Not entire Wb's command, Ace - Jozu - Thatch was not there. Only Marco and *Vista* can make different against admiral, others are non-factor.


his presence didn't seem to make any difference against akainu though.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 9, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> In stats, Sakazuki is vastly superior to Ace in each and every one.



Same Ace held his own against Kuzan, who has fought 10 days against Akainu.


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 9, 2014)

All Ace did was blocking one attack. This feat pales in comparison to a ten day fight.


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## Hachibi (Aug 9, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> Same Ace held his own against Kuzan, who has fought 10 days against Akainu.



And Pre-Ts Pre-Gear Luffy is Aokiji level because he send him flying with a kick


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## Raiden34 (Aug 9, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> And Pre-Ts Pre-Gear Luffy is Aokiji level because he send him flying with a kick



No because Luffy get stomped right after that. Ace didn't get any...


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## Luke (Aug 9, 2014)

Ace surviving a half assed attack from Aokiji doesn't mean he was "holding his own" against him.


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## Ruse (Aug 9, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> No because Luffy get stomped right after that. Ace didn't get any...



Implying Ace wouldn't have gotten stomped if Kuzan had carried on attacking especially in the condition Ace was in....


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## Canute87 (Aug 9, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> All Ace did was blocking one attack. This feat pales in comparison to a ten day fight.



I find it strange that people think fire can't melt Ice.

AoKiji sent an ice block attack against him (not freezing)


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## Raiden34 (Aug 9, 2014)

I also think that mera mera is better against hie hie no mi, because hie hie seems always effective against liquid matters, such as ocean water etc. Maybe it was effective against magma as well because that matter is in liquid form, however mera mera is in gas form, and there is nothing to freeze, you can freeze magma and turn it into earth, but you can't freeze mere fire like that...


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## Lawliet (Aug 9, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Go read my post after that i said its just a theory but WB was given that title because he has been know to fight on equal grounds with the PK just like how Mihawk use to challenge Shanks to a duels and was on equal footing with him



Does't matter whether it's a theory or not. You're going with theories I'm going with facts. Mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman, that's a fact given to us by Oda, you and I can't ignore that fact.

I am not trying to find out how were these people were able to obtain these titles. Oda, the author has given them these titles for a reason. He'll justify if needed when the time comes, in the meantime, you can make up as many theories as you wish, none of them holds a thing against the fact that Mihawk is the WSS and by default and he's stronger than all swordsmen.


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## Suit (Aug 9, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> I find it strange that people think fire can't melt Ice.
> 
> AoKiji sent an ice block attack against him (not freezing)



Oh but ice can't freeze magma?


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## trance (Aug 9, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> Same Ace held his own against Kuzan, who has fought 10 days against Akainu.



Blocking one attack =/= "Holding his own".

We have multiple instances where one lesser combatant can clash with or at least stall a much stronger combatant for an extended period of time. However, this is by no means an indicator that they are equal in anyway. 

Yami Yami Teach decisively beat Ace. A far superior version of Teach ran away at the immediate mention of Sakazuki's name. Seriously. There's no doubt that Ace pales in comparison to him.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 9, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Blocking one attack =/= "Holding his own".
> 
> We have multiple instances where one lesser combatant can clash with or at least stall a much stronger combatant for an extended period of time. However, this is by no means an indicator that they are equal in anyway.
> 
> Yami Yami Teach decisively beat Ace. A far superior version of Teach ran away at the immediate mention of Sakazuki's name. Seriously. There's no doubt that Ace pales in comparison to him.



What ? Teach was running away from Ace as well... Thats Teach's personality...


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## trance (Aug 9, 2014)

Marco1907 said:


> What ? Teach was running away from Ace as well... Thats Teach's personality...



No. Teach was running away from Whitebeard. When he killed Thatch, he immediately fled, firmly believing that Whitebeard would've killed him. He was genuinely surprised when Ace showed up on Banaro.


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## Suit (Aug 9, 2014)

I wouldn't say he "decisively" beat Ace considering that Ace had no intel on the YYnM powers while BB had full intel on Ace. That could have made all the difference, as Ace was shown to be far more than just capable of hurting BB. Also, didn't Gura Teach run from Shanks? I'm pretty sure he said that he wasn't ready to fight Shanks just yet. Don't know how Sakazuki plays into that.


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## Hachibi (Aug 9, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> I wouldn't say he "decisively" beat Ace considering that Ace had no intel on the YYnM powers while BB had full intel on Ace. That could have made all the difference, as Ace was shown to be far more than just capable of hurting BB. Also, didn't Gura Teach run from Shanks? I'm pretty sure he said that he wasn't ready to fight Shanks just yet. Don't know how Sakazuki plays into that.



Sakazuki is everywhere


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 9, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> I wouldn't say he "decisively" beat Ace considering that Ace had no intel on the YYnM powers while BB had full intel on Ace. That could have made all the difference, as Ace was shown to be far more than just capable of hurting BB.


Blackbeard took a bisento slash plus a quake punch to the head from Whitebeard and a shockwave from Sengoku yet still got back up ready for more. Ace had no chance against Blackbeard. And Blackbeard was hit far worse with PIS/CIS than Ace, he kept yapping about his powers like a moron, got hit a few times before he began hitting Ace back, and he was trying (at first) to get Ace to join the crew, not kill him. With PIS/CIS off and the intent to kill on, Blackbeard may have even won at an easier diff than what had happened in the manga (around mid diff).


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## trance (Aug 9, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> I wouldn't say he "decisively" beat Ace considering that Ace had no intel on the YYnM powers while BB had full intel on Ace. That could have made all the difference, as Ace was shown to be far more than just capable of hurting BB.



Even after figuring the mechanics of his nullification and gravity abilities, Ace still wasn't able to prevent Teach from damaging his body. 

Plus, after clashing for awhile, both are shown exhausted and wounded but Ace more so than Teach. I took this as an indictor that this instance of Teach is superior to Ace.

*Spoiler*: __ 










> Also, didn't Gura Teach run from Shanks? I'm pretty sure he said that he wasn't ready to fight Shanks just yet. Don't know how Sakazuki plays into that.



As soon as Van Augur mentioned Sakazuki was heading towards their vicinity, Teach fled without haste.



			
				cnet said:
			
		

> Blackbeard: Dammit!!! I'm not looking to get involved in that kind of stuff just yet!!! // Let's get outta here, men!!!
> Crew: Gyahahahahahahah!! We screwed up big time~!!


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## Suit (Aug 9, 2014)

Alright, I was just wondering.


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## Canute87 (Aug 9, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Oh but ice can't freeze magma?



It obviously cancels each other out.

10 day fight


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