# Sabo vs DD



## Amol (Aug 3, 2014)

Location: Dressrosa 
Distance: 50m
Mindset : To Kill
Knowledge : Manga
Scenario 1: Pre MMnM Sabo
Scenario 2: Post MMnN Sabo


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Aug 3, 2014)

Fire should be a good counter for his strings. 
Scenario 1: Sabo mid diff
Scenario 2: Sabo low diff


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## Goomoonryong (Aug 3, 2014)

Scenario 1: Sabo wins high diff.

Scenario. 2: Right now id say Sabo wins mid-high diff, but with full mastery of the fruit I can see him taking out Dofla mid diff.


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## 2Broken (Aug 3, 2014)

Got to give it to DD, I actually posted why not to long ago so ima just repost it.



> Both characters have equally impressive ranking and have demonstrated great power, but lets directly compare their and abilities into the three catergories that determine the strength of a character.
> 
> *Physical*
> 
> ...


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## Ruse (Aug 3, 2014)

Sabo wins but I'm not sure on the difficulty I'll go with high.


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## Luke (Aug 3, 2014)

Scenario 1: Sabo wins with extremely high difficulty. 
Scenario 2: Sabo wins on the higher end of medium difficulty.


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

s1 It could go either way based on current feats.
s2 Sabo with very high difficulty.



CaptainCommanderRenji said:


> Fire should be a good counter for his strings.
> Scenario 1: Sabo mid diff
> Scenario 2: Sabo low diff




Low diff? That's crazy. I can't see Akainu low diffing Doflamingo, never mind Sabo.

We already know from Sanji that Dofla's strings are pretty damn flame resistent.


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## Amol (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> s1 It could go either way based on current feats.
> s2 Sabo with very high difficulty.
> 
> 
> ...



Do you believe that DD has haki strong enough to bypass Akainu's logia defence?


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## Suit (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> s1 It could go either way based on current feats.
> s2 Sabo with very high difficulty.
> 
> 
> ...



1) Sakazuki is low-diffing Doflamingo. I hate Admiral-wanking, but it's the truth.

2) Sanji? You're comparing Sanji's flames to Sabo's? Sabo > Sanji and Sabo's flames > Sanji's flames (unrelated to first comparison).

I'm going with about high-diff both scenarios. Possibly high-mid. He only just got the DF, so I doubt his proficiency with it will make much of a difference at the moment.


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

Amol said:


> Do you believe that DD has haki strong enough to bypass Akainu's logia defence?



Well, Sandersonia has strong enough Haki to bypass Akainu's logia defense.

The way I see it: Your ability to bypass a logia defense has to do with speed and the mere presence of CoA. And your ability to bypass someone's CoA defense or durability has to do with your attack power and CoA. So to me your question is a non-sequitur. The only thing that's inconsistent with the way I view logias and CoA is Akainu repairing his body from attacks with CoA, but I consider those attacks to have done damage despite Akainu managing to repair himself from vital injury.




TheRooMan said:


> 1) Sakazuki is low-diffing Doflamingo. I hate Admiral-wanking, but it's the truth.
> 
> 2) Sanji? You're comparing Sanji's flames to Sabo's? Sabo > Sanji and Sabo's flames > Sanji's flames (unrelated to first comparison).



Less to do with my feelings about the admirals, more to do with how close Doflamingo appears to be to those at the top. 

Fire is fire. It's not like Sabo is some master of Mera Mera. Why are we assuming his flames are hotter than someone who is actually practiced at using fire in combat.


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## Amol (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> Well, *Sandersonia has strong enough Haki to bypass Akainu's logia defense.*
> 
> The way I see it: Your ability to bypass a logia defense has to do with speed and the mere presence of CoA. And your ability to bypass someone's CoA defense or durability has to do with your attack power and CoA. So to me your question is a non-sequitur. The only thing that's inconsistent with the way I view logias and CoA is Akainu repairing his body from attacks with CoA, but I consider those attacks to have done damage despite Akainu managing to repair himself from vital injury.


I can't take bolded part seriously.
I also don't understand what exactly you mean by *Akainu managing to repair himself from vital injury. *
Repairing injuries means exactly what?
If Akainu gets injured then he stays injured. The way you worded the sentence makes it sound like Akainu is healing himself.


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

Here's the thing, Amol.

We've never been introduced to the mechanic that allowed Akainu to do what he did. Therefore, no theory on how this works is any more valid than another. On this forum, it's taken as fact that Akainu did this because his CoA was too powerful or that Vista and Marco's CoA was to weak to bypass Akainu's "defense." But, it's important to remember that this is *only a theory*. But since this theory doesn't seem adequate to me (because, as far as we know, CoA holds things together, it doesn't make a logia more intangible), so I've invented my own theory: that very powerful logias have some method of diverting, defending against, or repairing damage from attacks with CoA. And this must be a very limited technique because Akainu made special note of how much a nuisance Haki users were to him. But I have no good reason to believe that better CoA is the key to breaking any such technique.


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## Kaiser (Aug 3, 2014)

The ratio of inferiority/superiority of the COA is something that never made sense to me. COA is a barrier that protects the user against any opponent attacks. The barriers while invisible solidifies to protect against any attack and while used on a weapon or a body, it makes it defensively/offensively harder. Yet when Akainu was attacked, the attack went right through him, so there were no resistance at all. 

I personally think Akainu likely survived due to a great mastery over his logia DF. I think it's possible that logia users who master their fruit to great extent could shift their real body, replacing it with an external source(of magma, light, ice, and so on) to make any COA attacks used on them at some point seem ineffective

OT: Sabo wins high-very high difficulty
Sabo wins mid difficulty


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> Low diff? That's crazy. I can't see Akainu low diffing Doflamingo, never mind Sabo.



Well high end of low diff / low end off mid diff. 

This is how i see it:
Zero diff: Kizaru vs Supernovas 
Low diff: Luffy vs Blueno
Mid diff: Law vs Smoker
High diff: Luffy vs Crocodile
Extreme diff: Luffy vs Lucci


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

Oh, you consider Luffy v Blueno to be low diff?
Then I can sort of see why you would say that.

To me low diff is Luffy v Pacifista.


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## barreltheif (Aug 3, 2014)

Luffy vs PX was no diff, not low diff. Low diff means there was some difficulty involved, just not very much.

I think Sabo and Doffy are on the same level, but since Sabo doesn't have intel, I'd give the edge to Doffy.


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Luffy vs PX was no diff, not low diff. Low diff means there was some difficulty involved, just not very much.
> .



It was a hardened G2 punch.  So I would say some difficulty was involved.


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## zoro (Aug 3, 2014)

S1: Sabo wins borderline extreme diff
S2: Sabo wins high diff


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## Typhon (Aug 3, 2014)

I actually believe it can go either way assuming Luffy and Law team up to take Doflamingo. I do believe Doflamingo has power rivaling a Yonkou's first mate. He has island wide range and can fly. Sabo is gonna have a hard time fighting him even if he is stronger.


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## November (Aug 3, 2014)

CaptainCommanderRenji said:


> Fire should be a good counter for his strings.
> Scenario 1: Sabo mid diff
> Scenario 2: Sabo low diff


Lol
Also long ass name



Kinjishi no Shiki said:


> S1: Sabo wins borderline extreme diff
> S2: Sabo wins high diff


Going with this


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## Suit (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> It was a hardened G2 punch.  So I would say some difficulty was involved.



Lol, no, that just means that some _effort_ was involved, not difficulty. Kizaru used his logia powers to no-diff the supernovas, but just because he used special powers related to his DF doesn't mean he had "difficulty".


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## tanman (Aug 3, 2014)

TheRooMan said:


> Lol, no, that just means that some _effort_ was involved, not difficulty. Kizaru used his logia powers to no-diff the supernovas, but just because he used special powers related to his DF doesn't mean he had "difficulty".



difficulty - _noun_; situation requiring great effort

Knowing what we know about a Pacifista's durability, I honestly don't believe that Luffy could have one-shotted one with a weaker move.


Another example of low diff for me would be Akainu v Luffy or Ace where a solid serious hit can quickly dispatch them (but they could prove to be a threat in a team fight)


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## Shanks (Aug 3, 2014)

​


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## Suit (Aug 3, 2014)

tanman said:


> difficulty - _noun_; situation requiring great effort
> 
> Knowing what we know about a Pacifista's durability, I honestly don't believe that Luffy could have one-shotted one with a weaker move.
> 
> ...



Yes. Great effort. A G2 punch isn't exactly great effort. He did put effort into fighting Blueno though. It just didn't take much of that effort to defeat him, so it was low-diff.

I'd actually like to say that anyone who gets one-shot by one of Luffy's punches has been no-diffed. Especially when Luffy's speed exceeds their own. That is truly a "no-difficulty" situation.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 4, 2014)

Mid-high diff. Sabo doesn't have mastery over his fruit right now to be able to take benefit of Logia intang.

Besides, Sabo's fighting Fujitora right now, who easily blocked Mingo's kick.


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Aug 4, 2014)

November said:


> Lol
> Also long ass name



I'm just happy that Luffy got his onee-chan back. Please allow me to believe that he is very strong, closer to admirals than someone like DD.

Dragon 100
Akainu 90
Fujitora 75
Sabo 75
DD 45
Luffy 40


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## Kaneda30 (Aug 4, 2014)

S1 - Sabo high/very high diff. However, given that he has no knowledge of DD's fruit, there is a chance that he will be caught in Parasite and be trolled like Sanji and Jozu.

S2 - Sabo mid diff. I believe fire is a good counter to strings.


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## barreltheif (Aug 4, 2014)

I don't think Doffy can own Sabo with parasite like he did Sanji and Jozu. Even when he's trapped, he can still fight back with fire. That said, Doffy's likely to win, just not nearly as easily as he did against Sanji and Jozu.


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## Kaneda30 (Aug 4, 2014)

Parasite is more likely in S1 where Sabo doesn't have the mera.


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## Arkash (Aug 4, 2014)

S1. Sabo extreme diff
S2. Sabo high diff


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## NO (Aug 4, 2014)

High and low (at Ace's level of mastery). 


Master Luke said:


> Scenario 1: Sabo wins with extremely high difficulty.
> Scenario 2: Sabo wins on the higher end of medium difficulty.





tanman said:


> s1 It could go either way based on current feats.
> s2 Sabo with very high difficulty.





Blake said:


> OT: Sabo wins high-very high difficulty
> Sabo wins mid difficulty





Kinjishi no Shiki said:


> S1: Sabo wins borderline extreme diff
> S2: Sabo wins high diff





Kaneda30 said:


> S1 - Sabo high/very high diff. However, given that he has no knowledge of DD's fruit, there is a chance that he will be caught in Parasite and be trolled like Sanji and Jozu.
> 
> S2 - Sabo mid diff. I believe fire is a good counter to strings.





Arkash said:


> S1. Sabo extreme diff
> S2. Sabo high diff


High and mid for S2? Brilliant. Last time I checked, fire burns string. There is a clear DF advantage.


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## Kaiser (Aug 4, 2014)

He doesn't master his DF well at this moment. I'd say low when he masters it and eventhen i may be underestimating Doflamingo here because when thinking about it, i don't think even Akainu can low diff him(may be wrong though)


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2014)

No, you're right, Blake.
Whitebeard is the only character with feats who is consistently low diffing Doflamingo. Akainu is a maybe at best.



jayjay32 said:


> High and mid for S2? Brilliant. Last time I checked, fire burns string. There is a clear DF advantage.




Except, Doflamingo's string obviously isn't your grandmother's twine. Doflamingo's threads stopped Sanji's DJ in its place and failed to catch fire. They also haven't been broken by anything from extremely hot meteors to Jozu's physical strength. 

There is no clear DF advantage (really I didn't even need to back that up with the previous statements, if there's no advantage between Jinbe and Ace then that shows pretty clearly that DF advantages are totally unpredictable and almost never "clear"),


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## Kaiser (Aug 4, 2014)

I doubt DJ's fire should be comparable to the mera's heat, but the meteorite point is great. When a large extraterrestrial object(spatial rock) enters the Earth's atmosphere, the initial impact with the atmosphere will compress the atmosphere, sending a shock wave through the air.  Frictional heating will cause the object to heat(sometimes reaching 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C)), melting everything in contact, yet it didn't phase Bird cage's strings, so it's likely the mera heat shouldn't be enough to melt Doflamingo's strings


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2014)

Does Mera Mera have some special temperature feat that would cause us to think that even a new user is much hotter than the average fire?

If not, I don't see why the heat of DJ should be so different. Mera obviously has way bigger scale. bu that's not the same as heat.

Of course, the meteor way exceeds those temps, but I still think the DJ feat should be enough.


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## Orca (Aug 4, 2014)

Tanman said:
			
		

> And this must be a very limited technique because Akainu made special note of how much a nuisance Haki users were to him.



Don't think Akainu ever said anything like that.


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2014)

I'm referring to his response to Marco and Vista.


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## Orca (Aug 4, 2014)

He acknowledged Marco and Vista as Haki users. That's about it.

If you're referring to the "this is getting irritating" comment, Akainu was referring to the fact that first Jimbei and now Marco and vista were interfering with his goal of killing Luffy. The interfering was irritating him and not necessarily Haki.


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2014)

Luffee said:


> He acknowledged Marco and Vista as Haki users. That's about it.
> 
> If you're referring to the "this is getting irritating" comment, Akainu was referring to the fact that first Jimbei and now Marco and vista were interfering with his goal of killing Luffy. The interfering was irritating him and not necessarily Haki.



Well considering he noted that they were a nuisance immediately after referencing that they were using CoA, I'm inclined to believe they were contiguous thoughts. I suspect he would have merely ignored the threat entirely if it had been Daz Bones or something attacking him.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 4, 2014)

Damn... if sabo has to extreme or high diff Doflamingo premmnm, then how will luffy stand a chance?


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## Ruse (Aug 4, 2014)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> Damn... if sabo has to extreme or high diff Doflamingo premmnm, then how will luffy stand a chance?



That's why Law's with Luffy, Doffy is just too strong for Luffy alone to deal with.


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## Ether (Aug 4, 2014)

S1: Could go either way but Sabo should win more times than not with very high diff.
S2: Sabo High diff. The MMnM is the deciding factor.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 4, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> That's why Law's with Luffy, Doffy is just too strong for Luffy alone to deal with.



That would actually make more sense.


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## 2Broken (Aug 4, 2014)

Am I the only one that thinks DD > Sabo?


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Am I the only one that thinks DD > Sabo?



Not really.
I certainly consider that a solid possibility.


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## 2Broken (Aug 4, 2014)

tanman said:


> Not really.
> I've certainly consider that a solid possibility.



Good to know I"m not alone.

I think it is because Sabo is newer and the hype for the Revos is still high, but based off feats I don't see how you could conclude anything different.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 4, 2014)

Sabo doesn't have a chance of losing either scenario.


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## 2Broken (Aug 4, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Sabo doesn't have a chance of losing either scenario.



How do you figure that?


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## monkey d ace (Aug 5, 2014)

sabo extreme diff
sabo high diff(it'll be easier with higher level of DF mastery).


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## RF (Aug 5, 2014)

Sabo gets the benefit of doubt until Doflamingo proves he can hang with admirals himself.

Mid diff.


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## blueframe01 (Aug 5, 2014)

Sabo Mid Difficulty IMO. Dofla certainly isn't admiral level, the fact he suggested that him & his whole crew might beat Fuji if they ganged up says alot about his strength in comparison to an admiral. Sabo in the other hand casually stood in front of Fuji , Bastille & all the other Marines and started whooping their arses pretty much shows that  he can fight toe to toe with an Admiral.


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## 2Broken (Aug 5, 2014)

I'm still waiting for a reason other than Sabo is fighting Fujitora so he is stronger; stating why his abilities make him stronger would be a nice change of pace. 

This admiral scaling business is ridiculous. Sabo hasn't even done anything, but show he can fight Fujitora for some amount of time. 

If he manges to ever get the upperhand against Fujitora then some of this ridiculous hype will be warranted. I doubt that happens, but we will see.


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## Rurouni Seinto (Aug 5, 2014)

S1: Extreme diff for Sabo. Could go as far as even being a tie, or perhaps extreme diff for Doflamingo.
S2: Sabo high diff.

From what we've seen of Sabo so far, he can hold his own against Fujitora, though whether he can win or keep this at a dead even fight will be what decides it for me. If he loses, I could see s2 being extreme diff as well.


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## RF (Aug 5, 2014)

No other reasons are neccessary. 

The Revolutionary army plans to wage war with the Goverment. Speaking from a logical standpoint, Sabo, the second strongest fighter in the army aside from the leader himself should be on the level of an admiral as the WG itself has more than half a dozen of such fighters at their disposal, and there's no way the RA are ever coming close to matching them, let alone beating if their top fighter is Doflamingo level. 

All that was needed was evidence that Sabo is on that level and now we have it with him confronting Fujitora leading a pack of Marines, crushing one of the VA's present and then juking it out with Fujitora himself perfectly equally.

Doflamingo is the one who needs to prove himself, since he doesn't quite look like admiral level at the moment.


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## Coruscation (Aug 5, 2014)

Fruitless Sabo wins high diff.
Mera Sabo wins mid diff.

How are DD's physical & Haki feats even close to Sabo's? Sabo exploded the entire Colosseum ring just by putting his fingers into the ground and gripping. Luffy and Law were punched and kicked respectively right in the face by Dofla and got up no problem. In Law's case he was even significantly injured beforehand. Sabo one-shotted Bastille just by gripping his face. He is crushing VAs as easily with the strength of one hand as Doffy does using his DF. His pipe and heavier attacks would do much worse. DD's attack that cut the palace was clearly a sharp kick, either with strings or technique/sharpened edges on his shoes, not just a blunt force blow.



> If he manges to ever get the upperhand against Fujitora then some of this ridiculous hype will be warranted.



So Sabo needs to get the upper hand against an Admiral to be considered stronger than DD who hasn't even proven he is capable of fighting one for an extended period of time at all?


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## 2Broken (Aug 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> No other reasons are neccessary.
> 
> The Revolutionary army plans to wage war with the Goverment. Speaking from a logical standpoint, Sabo, the second strongest fighter in the army aside from the leader himself should be on the level of an admiral as the WG itself has more than half a dozen of such fighters at their disposal, and there's no way the RA are ever coming close to matching them, let alone beating if their top fighter is Doflamingo level.
> 
> ...



I know Sabo's resume and as impressive as it is it isn't enough to state he is automatically stronger than Doflamingo, let alone mid diff the man. Dragon has that kind of hype backing him as the most dangerous man in the world and most would agree an admiral would at the least give him a tuff battle. Doflamingo's status is as equally impressive as Sabo's. He is among the strongest Shichibukai, is the most powerful broker in the series, has enough influence to more or less decieve the world and Kuzan a prospective fleet admiral has shown concern about him and advised sending the admirals against him. He is not just a powerful pirate, he is about as powerful as you can get without being a Yonkou. 

There is a reason the Revolutionary Army hasn't destroyed the WG yet and that reason simply is, because they are not strong enough. We don't even know how strong the Revos are yet, but we can at least say that much. The army could have several other fighters at Sabo's level, it doesn't have to be Dragon + Sabo and then a whole bunch of fodder. Sabo is second in command, but he obviously has a lot more growth to do  as does the Revolution Army before the directly challenge the WG. Using his position to state his superiority over a charater with equally impressive status when both of them have plenty of feats doesn't make sense.

Now looking at the feats Doflamingo is just as capable of doing what Sabo just did. He can wreck Bastille + fodder and battle Fujitora for some time. If you don't agree state why.



Coruscation said:


> How are DD's physical & Haki feats even close to Sabo's? Sabo exploded the entire Colosseum ring just by putting his fingers into the ground and gripping. Luffy and Law were punched and kicked respectively right in the face by Dofla and got up no problem. In Law's case he was even significantly injured beforehand. Sabo one-shotted Bastille just by gripping his face. He is crushing VAs as easily with the strength of one hand as Doffy does using his DF. His pipe and heavier attacks would do much worse. DD's attack that cut the palace was clearly a sharp kick, either with strings or technique/sharpened edges on his shoes, not just a blunt force blow.
> 
> 
> 
> So Sabo needs to get the upper hand against an Admiral to be considered stronger than DD who hasn't even proven he is capable of fighting one for an extended period of time at all?



The palace kick show Doflamingo has comparable physical power to Sabo. I am not arguing Doflamingo has comparable finger strength to Sabo, but overall. You think the Palace feat was clearly enhanced somhow, but why? We see no blackened limbs, nor any indication of string from his feet. All we see is the shockwave and we have known powerful enough kicks can cut since CP9, so why the doubt?

No Sabo needs to show he can get the upper hand to say he is Fujitora's equal as that is the idea many are using in their argument. Of course if they fight to the end without interruption and no one ever gets the upper hand or Sabo wins then that works too.


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## Coruscation (Aug 5, 2014)

No it doesn't. Kicks and punches doing moderate to little damage against Luffy & Law show he clearly isn't. His Palace kick was clearly special because generic kicks don't _slice_ off heads. A shockwave that comes from a powerful blunt force move will shatter and crush things, like King Punch/Drill Head/Surge Elbow, not make a perfect clean cut. Sharp edges on his shoes, strings or a Rankyaku esque technique; take your pick. Even if the feat were what you say it would at _best_ show that Doffy has great leg strength. That does by no means equate to an entire martial arts style plus a weapon.



> Sabo needs to show he can get the upper hand to say he is Fujitora's equal



Why do you need to get the upper hand over someone to show that you're equal to them? =/ Getting the upper hand would suggest, if anything, superiority, not equality. Equality would be suggested by an inconclusive and even fight. It's a bit much to say they're fighting equally right now since we've barely gotten a glimpse but they're clearly having a major fight with both parties serious. And the point is that this is more than Doflamingo has ever shown himself capable of.


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## tanman (Aug 5, 2014)

There is room for doubt in Sabo. Being certain about the strength of a character that has yet to go all out and that we were introduced to just a few months ago is silly.

The problem with Sabo is that all of his feats have been against unproven characters. We don't know how strong Burgess, Bastille, or Fujitora is, so we can't honestly pin down Sabo. If, for example, Bastille is as strong as Luffy then that's a great feat for Sabo, but if Bastille is as strong as Franky, not so much.

Now we now Fujitora is quite strong, so lasting against him is a solid feat in and of itself. But with most of the fight being off-panel and no evidence of either side having done damage, it's hard to tell. I can't, honestly, with any amount of certainty place Sabo above characters with great feats of a similar scale and quality simply because they haven't done the exact same thing as Sabo (when ultimately we don't actually know what  Sabo has done, merely fighting an admiral can't be considered a feat that stands above all feats when so many different characters have done it so it really has to be contextualized with a beginning and end).


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## 2Broken (Aug 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> No it doesn't. Kicks and punches doing moderate to little damage against Luffy & Law show he clearly isn't. His Palace kick was clearly special because generic kicks don't _slice_ off heads. A shockwave that comes from a powerful blunt force move will shatter and crush things, like King Punch/Drill Head/Surge Elbow, not make a perfect clean cut. Sharp edges on his shoes, strings or a *Rankyaku esque technique*; take your pick. Even if the feat were what you say it would at _best_ show that Doffy has great leg strength. That does by no means equate to an entire martial arts style plus a weapon.



The bolded is what I think it is. We have seen that kicks can slice in One Piece and there was no indication of him using his devil fruit. Since his fruit had been given a name have we ever not seen string when he sliced something with his fruit? Seriously I am asking. Doflamingo having extremely powerful legs is like Sabo having extremely powerful fingers. Their fighting styles focus around their strength and just because Sabo has called his fingers claws and has names for his attacks doesn't make his style better. Sabo has a rusty old pipe and Doflamingo has a gun.  Seriously though when you add in what Doflamingo can do with his devil fruit, Sabo is going to have to be a lot better physically and have more for Doflamingo than a pipe to win.



Coruscation said:


> Why do you need to get the upper hand over someone to show that you're equal to them? =/ Getting the upper hand would suggest, if anything, superiority, not equality. Equality would be suggested by an inconclusive and even fight. It's a bit much to say they're fighting equally right now since we've barely gotten a glimpse but they're clearly having a major fight with both parties serious. And the point is that this is more than Doflamingo has ever shown himself capable of.



My point is that fight an admiral for a while doesn't make you their equal. Jozu was able to do it, but I don't hear anyone ever say he is Aokiji's equal. If the fight ends without interference (which I doubt) then yeah we don't need to see Sabo get the upper hand to say if he is Fujitora's equal or not, but otherwise if he is truly equal he should be able to get the best of Fujitora at least once. Why do you think Akainu and Aokiji were both hurt so bad after their fight? It is because they were both capable of getting the upperhand on one another. If the whole fight goes by and Sabo can't even lay a scratch on Fujitora (get the upper hand) then I don't see them as equals.


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## Coruscation (Aug 5, 2014)

> The bolded is what I think it is



Then it's not physical strength. Kalifa could slice with her kicks and Sanji could not yet Sanji's legs were multiple times stronger than hers. There's nothing preventing Sabo from being much stronger than DD with physical+Haki strength by the same token.



> Their fighting styles focus around their strength and just because Sabo has called his fingers claws and has names for his attacks doesn't make his style better.



Dofla's style is his Devil Fruit. When he has ever even named a standard physical blow? Just because he knows how to punch and kick doesn't make him a master martial artist like Sabo.



> Seriously though when you add in what Doflamingo can do with his devil fruit, Sabo is going to have to be a lot better physically and more than a pipe to win.



Law's sword was enough to block Overheat and FCS. Sabo's pipe is obviously much stronger and he's much physically stronger and faster than Law. The only problem at all is Parasite and how he avoids getting caught by it but there's really no point discussing that before we get more information on how the technique even works in the first place.



> My point is that fight an admiral for a while doesn't make you their equal.



No, but it makes you able to fight an Admiral on even grounds for an extended period of time. Something Sabo is currently proving himself very capable of doing and DD never has.



> If the whole fight goes by and Sabo can't even lay a scratch on Fujitora (get the upper hand) then I don't see them as equals.



If Fujitora damages Sabo but Sabo can't damage Fujitora of course the logical conclusion is that Fuji is stronger. What if neither gets the upper hand over the other or both manage to damage each other?


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## NO (Aug 5, 2014)

2Broken, why exactly does Sabo need to prove himself to be on Fujitora's level? Don't they both have evenly respectable titles?

They're both fighters who began evenly matched and continue to be evenly matched, so let's just leave it at that. There's no reason to think either is stronger and it's this mentality that gives posters who consistently defend admirals a bad reputation.


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## 2Broken (Aug 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Then it's not physical strength. Kalifa could slice with her kicks and Sanji could not yet Sanji's legs were multiple times stronger than hers. There's nothing preventing Sabo from being much stronger than DD with physical+Haki strength by the same token.



??? You need powerful legs to use the technique,  but having powerful legs doesn't mean you have the skill to use it. Besides I don't even know if Doflamingo's kick was the same technique I am just showing that kicks can cut.



Coruscation said:


> Dofla's style is his Devil Fruit. When he has ever even named a standard physical blow? Just because he knows how to punch and kick doesn't make him a master martial artist like Sabo.



He doesn't need to be a martial artist like Sabo to be a physical monster. The best example in the whole series of that is Luffy, who has had no formal martial arts training and yet can fight and defeat martial arts masters.  Doflamingo has shown to use acrobatics and powerful kicks as his physical combat style and it has proven him to be a powerful physical combatant. 



Coruscation said:


> Law's sword was enough to block Overheat and FCS. Sabo's pipe is obviously much stronger and he's much physically stronger and faster than Law. The only problem at all is Parasite and how he avoids getting caught by it but there's really no point discussing that before we get more information on how the technique even works in the first place.



Why would Sabo's pipe be better than Law's fancy ass sword? I am going to assume that you are saying with haki Sabo can make his pipe stronger than Law could make his sword with haki. That is reasonable, but so what? I am not saying Sabo can't block Doflamingo, I put them on the same level. I expect them to be able to block each other, but if one lands a hit it is going to hurt. Do you think Sabo could tank Overheat without blocking it? I agree that Parasite isn't worth debating, but if Jozu couldn't get out than good luck to Sabo.



Coruscation said:


> No, but it makes you able to fight an Admiral on even grounds for an extended period of time. Something Sabo is currently proving himself very capable of doing and DD never has.



But it is unfair to say Doflamingo is weaker, because he has never fought an admiral. All we know is that he isn't afraid to fight one and unless you think he doesn't care for his life that should show he can at least defend himself against them. 



Coruscation said:


> If Fujitora damages Sabo but Sabo can't damage Fujitora of course the logical conclusion is that Fuji is stronger. What if neither gets the upper hand over the other or both manage to damage each other?



If the fight goes uninterrupted and the conclusion is that they are both exhausted and neither could get the upper hand than yes I will consider Sabo Fujitora's equal; I just don't see that happening.


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## 2Broken (Aug 5, 2014)

Edit: Sorry for double post.



jayjay32 said:


> 2Broken, why exactly does Sabo need to prove himself to be on Fujitora's level? Don't they both have evenly respectable titles?
> 
> They're both fighters who began evenly matched and continue to be evenly matched, so let's just leave it at that. There's no reason to think either is stronger and it's this mentality that gives posters who consistently defend admirals a bad reputation.



They both have impressive titles, but no Sabo does not get scaled to their strength based on title alone. Dragon is the one who gets the hype of competing with admirals based on title alone.

What I am saying is that we haven't seen enough to say they are evenly matched. If it turns out they are than that is perfectly fine, but based of what we have seen he hasn't defeated or fought anyone that Doflamingo couldn't with the same amount of difficulty.

On top of that Doflamingo's devil fruit abilities shit on Sabo's so I don't see how all of five panels against an opponent i'd expect him to be able to fight for a while tells us he is stronger than Doflamingo.


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## Amol (Aug 5, 2014)

I thought Sabo being Second in Command of Revo ,having more plot importance than DD and he hasn't died yet from Fuji's hand is more than enough to prove that he is stronger than DD .


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## tanman (Aug 5, 2014)

Prove is a very very strong word.


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## Monster (Aug 5, 2014)

Did I reply to this yet? If not Sabo wins. Both scenarios. If second in command of the REVOLUTIONARY ARMY loses to...Doflamingo....


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## RF (Aug 5, 2014)

> I know Sabo's resume and as impressive as it is it isn't enough to state he is automatically stronger than Doflamingo, let alone mid diff the man. Dragon has that kind of hype backing him as the most dangerous man in the world and most would agree an admiral would at the least give him a tuff battle. Doflamingo's status is as equally impressive as Sabo's. He is among the strongest Shichibukai, is the most powerful broker in the series, has enough influence to more or less decieve the world and Kuzan a prospective fleet admiral has shown concern about him and advised sending the admirals against him. He is not just a powerful pirate, he is about as powerful as you can get without being a Yonkou.



Yes, it does. Are you even listening to yourself? You're not properly evaluating their titles and achievements, you're just citing them. "Among the strongest Shichibukai", okay, but where was he when the Marineford war started?Notice that only Mihawk alongside the admirals made a move against the Whitebeard pirates at the beginning, in a chapter titled "The Ultimate Showdown" which was by all means meant to signify him from the rest. 

Him being influental and connected is in no way relevant to his strength. Yes, he is the biggest broker in the New World, but what happened when Law kidnapped CC and threatened him with the inability to supply Kaido with artificial zoans any further? Yes, Law confidently stated that Kaido would wipe him from the face of earth and Doflamingo himself damn knew that it was the case. 



> There is a reason the Revolutionary Army hasn't destroyed the WG yet and that reason simply is, because they are not strong enough. We don't even know how strong the Revos are yet, but we can at least say that much. The army could have several other fighters at Sabo's level, it doesn't have to be Dragon + Sabo and then a whole bunch of fodder. Sabo is second in command, but he obviously has a lot more growth to do as does the Revolution Army before the directly challenge the WG. Using his position to state his superiority over a charater with equally impressive status when both of them have plenty of feats doesn't make sense.



I never said that the revolutionaries are strong enough to take down the WG. But when you have Akainu, Kizaru, Fujitora, Green Bull, Sengoku, Garp, Mihawk _and _the 7th Shichibukai (very likely) who are all admiral level on th Goverments side, it's absolutely frivolous to expect that Dragon would be as successful as he is if he was the only one on the level of those I mentioned above.

And as for feats fighting Fujitora evenly is better than anything Doflamingo did. 

Fact is that Doflamingo will lose to Luffy this arc. That is a _fact._ Luffy may not do it completely alone, but he'll do the bulk of the work WITHOUT A DOUBT. And Luffy is, by all means, according to feats as well as hype, a complete chump to Fujitora and by extension Sabo. So if Doflamingo loses to Luffy with some help, how do you expect him to give more than mid diff to someone like Fuji or Sabo?


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## tanman (Aug 5, 2014)

Jesus Gai said:


> Did I reply to this yet? If not Sabo wins. Both scenarios. If second in command of the REVOLUTIONARY ARMY loses to...Doflamingo....



Man, Doflamingo needs some respect in this section.
You guys talk about him like he's Buggy compared to the top guys.


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## Luke (Aug 5, 2014)

I also think Doflamingo's pretty underrated when it comes to power levels, but Sabo strikes me as stronger for now.


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## RF (Aug 5, 2014)

tanman said:


> Man, Doflamingo needs some respect in this section.
> You guys talk about him like he's Buggy compared to the top guys.



Nah, not like Buggy, but I don't view him as a serious threat to them. I'd say he's about as strong as Vista; strong enough to fight them for a bit, but not really much more than that.


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## Coruscation (Aug 5, 2014)

> You need powerful legs to use the technique, but having powerful legs doesn't mean you have the skill to use it. Besides I don't even know if Doflamingo's kick was the same technique I am just showing that kicks



This is getting all confused. The point is that the kick doesn't demonstrate just physical and Haki ability. It was clearly a special technique, either with strings or through some other means, because normal kicks don't slice heads and make perfect clean cuts across large amounts of rock and metal. It demonstrates some degree of physical ability, but it's definitely not nearly as impressive a physical & Haki feat as Sabo exploding the arena by gripping the ground.



> He doesn't need to be a martial artist like Sabo to be a physical monster. The best example in the whole series of that is Luffy, who has had no formal martial arts training and yet can fight and defeat martial arts masters.



Luffy's fighting style *is* martial arts, made more powerful by his DF. Sabo's fighting style is martial arts and his pipe. Doflamingo's fighting style is his Devil Fruit. Therein lies the distinction. Doflamingo's primary attribute is DF skill and his secondary/supplementary ability is a high level of agile movements and ability to launch solid physical blows.



> Doflamingo has shown to use acrobatics and powerful kicks as his physical combat style and it has proven him to be a powerful physical combatant.



It's still only secondary to his Devil Fruit skill. He hasn't shown himself to be anywhere near as impressive as Sabo in terms of physical ability, Haki and martial arts/general brawling. And his DF abilities, Parasite aside, certainly haven't been portrayed as something Sabo couldn't handle relatively comfortably.



> Why would Sabo's pipe be better than Law's fancy ass sword? I am going to assume that you are saying with haki Sabo can make his pipe stronger than Law could make his sword with haki.



That is what I am saying. Sabo has the most impressive CoA shown to date.



> I expect them to be able to block each other, but if one lands a hit it is going to hurt. Do you think Sabo could tank Overheat without blocking it?



No, not anymore than Doflamingo could tank a pipe smash or Dragon Claw without blocking (which it's slightly questionable if he would be able to in the first place, considering that Sabo's pipe can clash evenly with Fujitora's sword, and Doflamingo showed himself to be slightly strained blocking a DJ barrage).



> But it is unfair to say Doflamingo is weaker, because he has never fought an admiral. All we know is that he isn't afraid to fight one



It's not unfair. There is nothing suggesting he can handle himself on even grounds against an Admiral for an extended period of time. Oda has teased encounters three times but every time he has made sure to break them off before anything resembling an actual extended fight happened. Have you considered why that might be so? It falls neatly into Oda's formula of hyping up arc villains without really going too far, so that it won't seem contradictory when the power relations eventually become clearer (in this case, that an Admiral is a lot stronger than Doflamingo). Sabo on the other hand casually strolls up and engages in a vicious duel with Fujitora after one-shotting a veteran VA with one hand.

We know he's confident in his ability to defend himself and not be helpless against one. That's all well and good, and I give him appropriate credit for it (enough to consider him pretty close to the level of Vista & Jozu) but it's not on the same level as actually confidently engaging in an extended fight. It's been made quite clear that DD doesn't fancy his chances at actually winning over an Admiral. Sabo expressed not the slightest hint of such concerns.


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## Kaiser (Aug 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> That is what I am saying. Sabo has the most impressive CoA shown to date.
> .


Not necessarly trying to enter your debate, but i'm quite interested here. Why do you think he has the most impressive COA?


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## Coruscation (Aug 5, 2014)

Well, I should have said best post-TS CoA feats. Stuff from the war might have been better but it's too muddled to tell, and Shanks' one-armed slash matching Whitebeard's downwards two-handed bisento strike is the feat I consider most impressive of all. Or possibly Garp matching the drillhead with his fist, but that's a 30 years long gone feat from an inactive character.

Sabo's credentials are:

- overpowering Burgess from a Haki standpoint, shattering the 1st Fleet Commander's Haki-imbued metal armor with only his fingers.
- creating an enormous shockwave that exploded the entire Colosseum arena just by putting his hardened fingers in the ground and gripping.
- clashing a standard steel pipe against an Admiral's sword, and not only having the pipe not get cut in half but matching the Admiral's blow equally.

The closest competitor would be Doflamingo but matching Fujitora's cut is definitely more impressive than stopping a DJ barrage while wincing slightly.


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## Intus Legere (Aug 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> - overpowering Burgess from a Haki standpoint, shattering the 1st Fleet Commander's Haki-imbued metal armor with only his fingers.
> - creating an enormous shockwave that exploded the entire Colosseum arena just by putting his hardened fingers in the ground and gripping.
> - clashing a standard steel pipe against an Admiral's sword, and not only having the pipe not get cut in half but matching the Admiral's blow equally.



How are those feats of haki, and not of strenght?


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## Coruscation (Aug 5, 2014)

Every offensive Haki feat is by its nature a combination of Haki and strength. But we don't need to be daft; it's not that hard to figure out the rough split between the two here. Burgess, the guy with an upper body like a house, didn't lose in the overall power of the clash, but his Haki-imbued armor was shattered by Sabo's fingers. It's clear that Sabo's CoA was stronger than Burgess'.

The first feat informs us that CoA is a major part of Sabo's power, and since Oda put an emphasis on him using it as he blew up the arena, it's a safe assumption that his feat of doing so can also be largely attributed to said CoA.

The third feat, lastly, obviously has nothing to do with strength. Physical strength is not going to make his pipe not get cut by an Admiral's sword, only the strengthening of his pipe through Haki will.

But if you want to attribute them to strength instead, the argument remains the same, as the two are essentially treated as one in my debate with 2Broken. In any event, Sabo clearly outshines Doflamingo in the merged category, even if we can't be entirely sure of how they compare in each attribute separately.


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## 2Broken (Aug 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Yes, it does. Are you even listening to yourself? You're not properly evaluating their titles and achievements, you're just citing them. "Among the strongest Shichibukai", okay, but where was he when the Marineford war started?Notice that only Mihawk alongside the admirals made a move against the Whitebeard pirates at the beginning, in a chapter titled "The Ultimate Showdown" which was by all means meant to signify him from the rest.



Simple question, how does Sabo's achievement of being second in command show that he has greater combat ability than Doflamingo?  Since when is it that you can decide what Oda is trying to convey to the reader without showing any evidence. We know Mihawk wanted to test his abilities against the old man, the other Shichibukai had no such desire.



Sakazuki said:


> Him being influental and connected is in no way relevant to his strength. Yes, he is the biggest broker in the New World, but what happened when Law kidnapped CC and threatened him with the inability to supply Kaido with artificial zoans any further? Yes, Law confidently stated that Kaido would wipe him from the face of earth and Doflamingo himself damn knew that it was the case.



Do you think that a weak character could accomplish what he has? Also unless you think Kaido couldn't kill Sabo I don't even know why you would bring him up.



Sakazuki said:


> I never said that the revolutionaries are strong enough to take down the WG. But when you have Akainu, Kizaru, Fujitora, Green Bull, Sengoku, Garp, Mihawk _and _the 7th Shichibukai (very likely) who are all admiral level on th Goverments side, it's absolutely frivolous to expect that Dragon would be as successful as he is if he was the only one on the level of those I mentioned above.



You don't have any idea what kind of fighters the Revos have in their ranks and you are using that lack of knowledge to try to justify Sabo being as strong as you feel is necessary to compensate. Until you see all the Revos top fighters you can make a case for how they will do against the WG's top fighters, you are truly building an argument from ignorance. 

All we know is that the Revos are significantly weaker than the WG, so even you trying to equate them in power makes no sense.



Sakazuki said:


> And as for feats fighting Fujitora evenly is better than anything Doflamingo did.



If you see it that way fine, but you can only use that as a case for Sabo being stronger than Doflamingo if you have evidence supporting that Doflamingo wouldn't last as long as Sabo has without being significantly injured or defeated.



Sakazuki said:


> Fact is that Doflamingo will lose to Luffy this arc. That is a _fact._ Luffy may not do it completely alone, but he'll do the bulk of the work WITHOUT A DOUBT. And Luffy is, by all means, according to feats as well as hype, a complete chump to Fujitora and by extension Sabo. So if Doflamingo loses to Luffy with some help, how do you expect him to give more than mid diff to someone like Fuji or Sabo?



 I like how your opinions turned into facts, am I debating with Oda now? Law has stated that Luffy fighting Doflamingo alone is akin to killing himself, now why is your word more valuable than Law's. I also don't think Luffy is a complete chump to his brother. You only think so, because you are scaling Sabo to Fujitora, because he can fight him.

I also don't think Sabo would do so hot against Law + Luffy and that is what I think it will take to take down Doflamingo, especially seeing how Doflamingo has embarrassed them so far.




tanman said:


> Man, Doflamingo needs some respect in this section.
> You guys talk about him like he's Buggy compared to the top guys.



It is kind of ridiculous sometimes isn't it?

@Coruscation I see you post and I will get to it later I am about to take off for a bit.


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## Kaiser (Aug 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Sabo's credentials are:
> 
> - overpowering Burgess from a Haki standpoint, shattering the 1st Fleet Commander's Haki-imbued metal armor with only his fingers.
> - creating an enormous shockwave that exploded the entire Colosseum arena just by putting his hardened fingers in the ground and gripping.
> - clashing a standard steel pipe against an Admiral's sword, and not only having the pipe not get cut in half but matching the Admiral's blow equally.


I agree with the first. Concerning the second feat i don't think it was a COA feat alone that allowed him to accomplish it. I think the dragon breath has its own attack power and the COA empowered it even more. As for the third, it's not easy to know if there were haki usage there or not, or it would mean Zoro also has admiral level haki since his sword clashed with Fujitora's equally. Though considering Fujitora was clashing against a logia, i guess you could say he may have used haki for that purpose


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## Coruscation (Aug 5, 2014)

Like I said all offensive feats are CoA + other sources of power. But we can still deduce when certain people have especially impressive Haki. Vergo, for example, was both physically strong and adept in CoA, but we could easily tell that his CoA was the real dealbreaker. So too with the clash between Sabo and Burgess, which in turn informs us of the level of Sabo's Haki, which was showcased in a real heavy hitter in Dragon's Breath.

We've never seen Fujitora attack Zoro with his sword. He only blocked him when shielding Doflamingo, and in their second momentary scuffle, we didn't see who attacked and who defended. In any case, Zoro's swords are examples of legendary craftsmanship. Sabo has an old steel pipe. So there's still a significant difference. Vergo again makes a good comparison, where the power of his Haki was highlighted in his ability to turn a simple bamboo staff into a devastating weapon.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Aug 5, 2014)

S1- DD extreme diff
S2-Sabo extreme diff

By using the Sabo vs Fuji logic, Zoro is also on par with admirals it seems. Sabo is strong, but i'm not ready to accept that he can beat the likes of DD with mid diff. At best it should be high diff. If you say Sabo fodderized Bastille, look what happened when Smoker fought DD. Sabo being 2nd in command doesn't mean everything. We know too little about the Revolutionaries to confidently use that to hype Sabo into admiral level.


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## 2Broken (Aug 7, 2014)

Sorry Coruscation I got busy, so I couldn't get to this post till now.



Coruscation said:


> This is getting all confused. The point is that the kick doesn't demonstrate just physical and Haki ability. It was clearly a special technique, either with strings or through some other means, because normal kicks don't slice heads and make perfect clean cuts across large amounts of rock and metal. It demonstrates some degree of physical ability, but it's definitely not nearly as impressive a physical & Haki feat as Sabo exploding the arena by gripping the ground.



I agree it isn't a clear haki feat since his limbs didn't blacken, but how can you claim Doflamingo's kick isn't a feat of physical power, but some special technique using logic and turn around and say Sabo's feat is all physical and haki. For the record gripping your finger on the ground and destroying an arena is every bit as ridiculous as Doflamingo's palace kick, but you don't you don't question its legitimacy as a physical feat because?



Coruscation said:


> Luffy's fighting style *is* martial arts, made more powerful by his DF. Sabo's fighting style is martial arts and his pipe. Doflamingo's fighting style is his Devil Fruit. Therein lies the distinction. Doflamingo's primary attribute is DF skill and his secondary/supplementary ability is a high level of agile movements and ability to launch solid physical blows.



How is Luffy a martial artist and what style does he study? Martial arts signify training in a specific style of combat, Luffy does whatever he thinks will work at the time without any standard style of fighting. There are quite a few martial artist in the show. There is Sanji, Lucci, Jinbe, Vergo and even Sabo and unlike Luffy they all use standard way of fighting that they have practiced to mastery. I agree that Doflamingo isn't a martial artist, but you don't have to be one to beat one.



Coruscation said:


> It's still only secondary to his Devil Fruit skill. He hasn't shown himself to be anywhere near as impressive as Sabo in terms of physical ability, Haki and martial arts/general brawling. And his DF abilities, Parasite aside, certainly haven't been portrayed as something Sabo couldn't handle relatively comfortably.



Doflamingo has mastered his fruit to insane levels, so he uses it a lot in combat. However just because he uses his fruit, doesn't mean he has to be physically weaker to compensate somehow; the admirals are a perfect example of what I am saying.The only thing imo that would have ever put Sabo comfortably over Doflamingo in physical power is the arena feat and imo the palace feat is comparable to that. What else has Sabo done physically that makes him so much better than Doflamingo? As far as devil fruit abilities go Sabo can't even compete, you can easily say he just handles all of Doflamingo's techniques, but I think you know if the fight comes down to the devil fruits Sabo is screwed. Sabo isn't tanking attacks that can severs off Oars Jr's leg and cleaves meteors. When it comes to devil fruits Doflamingo has superior power and range, clones, flight and hax to screw Sabo with. Sabo cannot win a battle of devil fruits with this man when he can barely control his.



Coruscation said:


> That is what I am saying. Sabo has the most impressive CoA shown to date.



I don't see much evidence behind this claim. We can make a solid case for his haki being better than Burgess's, but that doesn't give him the best haki award. Burgess likely didn't even how to use haki until he went to the New World and I sincerely doubt his haki is better than Doflamingo's.



Coruscation said:


> No, not anymore than Doflamingo could tank a pipe smash or Dragon Claw without blocking (which it's slightly questionable if he would be able to in the first place, considering that Sabo's pipe can clash evenly with Fujitora's sword, and Doflamingo showed himself to be slightly strained blocking a DJ barrage).



Why are you giving Sabo feats for his weapon not breaking against Fujitora? Fujitora has never cleaved a weapon in half, nor have we seen him perform an attack with his sword that would be considered to break a weapon. He has used his weapon mainly for employing his devil fruit abilities and blocking, not once do I recall him cutting somthing with his sword alone. Key words are slightly and barrage. Sanji is not a weak character and he specializes in kicks. Doflamingo blocking a barrage of Sanji's flame enhanced kicks without blackening with a smile on his face is a feat for him not against him. The only reason wee know it took effort at all is because he made some sort of grunt and in all honest I don't think Sabo could block those kicks without blackening with zero effort.



Coruscation said:


> It's not unfair. There is nothing suggesting he can handle himself on even grounds against an Admiral for an extended period of time. Oda has teased encounters three times but every time he has made sure to break them off before anything resembling an actual extended fight happened. Have you considered why that might be so? It falls neatly into Oda's formula of hyping up arc villains without really going too far, so that it won't seem contradictory when the power relations eventually become clearer (in this case, that an Admiral is a lot stronger than Doflamingo). Sabo on the other hand casually strolls up and engages in a vicious duel with Fujitora after one-shotting a veteran VA with one hand.



I don't think Doflamingo is equal to an admiral, but if attacking one for saying something he didn't like and Aokiji stating to send admirals against him doesn't indicate he could engage for for a significant amount of time than I don't know what does. Now the real question is has Sabo actually done anything better just engage Fujitora for a while. Now I know a lot of people like to use their interpretation on why Oda does something in the plot to determine what characters will win in the battledome. I am reluctant to do that as there is not any evidence to really look at. If your argument is coming from that than all I can say is that it is a poor argument based on you somehow knowing what Oda is thinking. As for your last statment, we have seen only a few inconclusive panels with no one being hurt in this vicious duel and I think you know Doflamingo could wreck Bastille just as bad, so I am not sure why you mentioned him.



Coruscation said:


> We know he's confident in his ability to defend himself and not be helpless against one. That's all well and good, and I give him appropriate credit for it (enough to consider him pretty close to the level of Vista & Jozu) but it's not on the same level as actually confidently engaging in an extended fight. It's been made quite clear that DD doesn't fancy his chances at actually winning over an Admiral. Sabo expressed not the slightest hint of such concerns.



How is Sabo's battle with Fujitora more impressive than Jozu's against Aokiji? Seriously how is Sabo confidently engaging in the few panels we have seen, but Jozu was not? Also Doflamingo has never shown concern over fighting an admiral and the amount of concern shown by any character doesn't accurately represent their strength.  Sabo simply has more reason to fight and that is all. What reason does Doflamingo have for risking his life to fight one? Sabo on the other hand is fighting for his brother, something he couldn't do before and is filled with regret about. There is a major difference in their circumstances that shouldn't be ignored.

At the end of the day Doflamingo's feats and hype are every bit as impressive as Sabo's if not more so. To suggest that Sabo could beat and possibly mid diff the man because of a few panels of him engaging Fujitora is ridiculous. Even more so when Fujitora has nerfed meteors and can't use them, mainly due to none other than Doflamingo. I just want to show the admiral scaling on Sabo just doesn't make sense and that he has not even actually shown himself to be superior to Doflamingo. I hope I have made my case.


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## Coruscation (Aug 7, 2014)

> how can you claim Doflamingo's kick isn't a feat of physical power, but some special technique using logic and turn around and say Sabo's feat is all physical and haki.



Because *normal kicks don't slice heads and make perfect cuts through iron and metal*. How many times do I have to say it? Can you please listen so I don't have to repeat this yet again? =/ Sabo's feat is one of physical / Haki because his enormous grip strength has been specifically emphasized. Doflamingo's leg strength has never been emphasized as special let alone that he can do some kind of super slicing move just because of leg strength when we've never once seen that happen with anyone but we do know exactly what a shockwave from a powerful standard physical move looks like.



> record gripping your finger on the ground and destroying an arena is every bit as ridiculous as Doflamingo's palace kick



No it isn't. Hody set a precedent for grips causing massive damage. Even Luffy has Snake Shot. Sabo's feat is just Hody's but dozens of times stronger.



> How is Luffy a martial artist



Don't dodge the point with semantics. Luffy's entire fighting style is punching, kicking and similar moves. Doflamingo's is not. Dofla's punches and kicks aren't even impressive compared to his DF attacks despite being stronger than Luffy overall. There's really no indication Doffy could even win over Luffy just on physical and brawling merits so why would he be able to handle someone much stronger? When Law is shown to be able to block FCS and his most powerful attack yet Overheat with his sword how do you possibly arrive at the conclusion that Doffy could fight Sabo evenly without even using those moves? 



> I agree that Doflamingo isn't a martial artist, but you don't have to be one to beat one.



What does that have to do with anything? You're strawmanning. The point was Dofla vs Sabo in physical, Haki & close combat abilities. Doflamingo does not measure up to Sabo in that regard. Only when his DF is accounted for, because his DF is his primary fighting style like martial artists & pipe is Sabo's. You're trying to make him into something he's clearly not based on a single feat which for all you know was a string feat all along.



> However just because he uses his fruit, doesn't mean he has to be physically weaker to compensate somehow



Stop the strawmen. We're comparing Sabo and DD. You claimed DD is on par with Sabo in physical and close combat but his feats don't come close to measuring up. You tried to compare Doflamingo's legs and Sabo's fingers which is a giant baseless strawman because they haven't been treated in anything close to the same way in the story. You tried to claim that Doflamingo's fighting style focuses on his strength in the same way that Sabo does which is simply flat-out false. Doflamingo's fighting style is his Devil Fruit with supplementary acrobatics and physical moves (that are nowhere near as powerful as his string moves seeing how Luffy and Law can both take them no problem) while Sabo's is his claws and pipe.



> Why are you giving Sabo feats for his weapon not breaking against Fujitora?



Because he's a goddamned swordsman Admiral? If you can clash equally with an Admiral's sword with a steel pipe then you have an incredible level of Haki. Dofla has never showed a Haki feat on that level.



> if attacking one for saying something he didn't like and Aokiji stating to send admirals against him doesn't indicate he could engage for for a significant amount of time than I don't know what does.



You may think that but it's not a feat. Fujitora made an implied threat and Doffy showed he wouldn't take it lying down. Throwing a half-assed easily blocked kick at Fujitora who was basically alone on Doflamingo's home base with his entire crew doesn't at all suggest he can have an extended close duel with the man. Aokiji said to sent out the Admirals because the entire situation can escalate not because of Doffy's own strength. Akainu then decided to send a single Admiral to handle, Doffy, his entire crew plus Law and the Straw Hats if need be. How does that not tell you something about how an Admiral and DD compare? Can you see Doflamingo being sent basically alone to handle an Admiral, multiple powerful VAs, a dozen lower officers with hax powers and experience? The very notion is laughably absurd. Funnily enough Sabo is the one who actually took on an Admiral, two VAs and and a whole squad of Marines by himself. Get back to me when DD shows he can handle an Admiral in a full on fight.



> Doflamingo has never shown concern over fighting an admiral



Except when he said that dealing with Fujitora with his entire crew wouldn't be a simple matter? Meanwhile Sabo strolls up to Fujitora's entire crew by himself, starts whooping their asses and then takes on the Admiral himself in a duel.



> Sabo simply has more reason to fight and that is all. What reason does Doflamingo have for risking his life to fight one?



A convenient excuse. The fact remains that DD will not get the benefit of the doubt he can have a fierce 1v1 with an Admiral until he actually shows it or does something that clearly implies he can. What I see is Oda doing nothing but dancing around the issue, making Doffy look badass but constantly avoiding him actually getting into such a fight.



> How is Sabo's battle with Fujitora more impressive than Jozu's against Aokiji? Seriously how is Sabo confidently engaging in the few panels we have seen, but Jozu was not?



What are you talking about? I never compared Sabo and Jozu let alone stated that Sabo's feat was better. Sabo & Jozu both have feats that Doflamingo does not: actually fighting an Admiral head-on for a period of time.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 7, 2014)

@ Corus:

What do you regard as being a martial artist? For instance, Doflamingo has shown to have graceful movements here:



I would personally regard him as a martial artist.


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## maupp (Aug 8, 2014)

Sabo wins mid diff. Any top tier should be able to defeat a high tier mid diff.

And in both Scenario Sabo wins mid diff. Pre fruit Sabo was already the RA second in command. It just the mid diff will vary from scenario 1 and 2 but overall they'll both be mid diff.

And Sabo needing high/extreme diff to beat DD. Are people serious? Sabo is a top tier and there is just no way a top tier would need extreme diff to defeat a high tier. It only takes top tier to extreme and high diff other top tier. MIngo is a level below Sabo, him pushing Sabo to extreme would mean his is a top tier and we know that isn't true at all. People need to think this through, if Sabo require extreme diff, so Luffy isn't defeating MIngo and that shouldn't be the case.

And lol at those saying Sabo defeat Mingo low diff . There are no characters in the manga that can defeat Mindo low diff, that's just nonsense. Not even the ever so wanked Admiral. Akainu isn't defeating MIngo low diff like some have already posted on here . It would take at least mid diff to put DD down, and it wouldn't take high diff either for a top tier to waste Mingo.

Top tiers can waste high tiers like Mingo, Luffy, Law, Zoro and co mid diff and no more. And at the same time these guys can't be fodderized by anyone, it'd take at least some trying to waste them which is why an Admiral in Fuji couldn't waste and brush off Zoro when he fought him.

Sabo wins both scenario mid diff. Low diff is a joke though


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## Coruscation (Aug 8, 2014)

> What do you regard as being a martial artist?



Well, in the real world it should entail some form of codified fighting style. But I'm using the term more loosely here since we're discussing a fantasy manga with lots of fantastical fighting styles. Luffy's fighting style is his own form of rubber martial arts. He has trained his entire way of fighting around it, he consistently names and improves his techniques and methods. 

Doflamingo is completely different from Luffy. He has never once named a physical attack and none of them have been proven to be anything more than your run of the mill punches and kicks. Just because someone has graceful movements doesn't make them an expert martial artist. It makes him agile and generally physically competent. He's shown himself as able in the field, nothing more. Someone on his level should be expected to be able to move with speed and dodge attacks from the likes of Law, Smoker or a massively telegraphing giant. If he was _exceptionally_ good at it Luffy and Law wouldn't be taking his punches and kicks with such relative ease and he wouldn't even be needing his Devil Fruit to outstrip them.

I would say that Doflamingo is a brawler in the same way Law is a swordsman. By all means competent and able to supplement their primary fighting style (their Devil Fruits) with it, but if they had to fight a full-time martial artist / swordsman on their level they would have a lot trouble and there's no way they could compete with them without using their DF. Zoro would be an example for Law and Sabo is an example for DD.


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