# Rank Konoha's Finest



## Kyu (Aug 9, 2014)

Naruto Uzumaki
Sasuke Uchiha
Hashirama Senju
Madara Uchiha
Tobirama Senju
Minato Namikaze
Itachi Uchiha
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Gai
Kakashi Hatake
Obito Uchiha

Everyone at their peak(excluding Edo Tensei incarnations). Essentially, rank them in order of who's presented as the most powerful shinobi.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 9, 2014)

Juubi transformations and other transformations included? (Apart from Edo)


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## Kyu (Aug 9, 2014)

Yep.**


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## Trojan (Aug 9, 2014)

1- Madara (Juubi's host and 3 Rinnegans)
2- Naruto (current)
3- Obito (Juubi's host)
4- Gai (8th gate)
5- Sasuke (current)
6- Minato (BM)
7- Hiruzen (hype/prime)
8- Hashirama (SM)
9- Jiraiya
10- Tsunade/ Oro/Tobirama/ and itachi
11- Hiruzen (old) 

I'll wait to see Kakashi's feats...


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## Bonly (Aug 9, 2014)

Madara
Naruto 
Sasuke
Obito
Hashi
Kakashi/Gai
Minato
Itachi/Tobi
Orochi/Jiraiya 
Tsunade
Hiruzen


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## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2014)

1- Madara (Juubi's host and 3 Rinnegans)
2- Naruto (current)/Sasuke Current
3- Obito (Juubi's host)
4- Gai (8th gate)
5- Hashirama
6- Kakashi
7- Minato (BM)
8- Tobirama
9- Itachi
10- Jiraiya
11- Tsunade/ Oro
12- Hiruzen (old) 

Kakashi and Gai are supposed to be equals, but Gai has fought stronger opponent than Perfect Susano'o, and Kakashi's only chance against Gai is Kamui, therefore he might only beat him due to matchup advantage and not because of general power level. Plus, his portrayal (Fighting equal to Juubi Jin Madara, wich is tiers above PS and Kakashi's own admission of Gai surpassing him helps him yet, even thought that was a weaker Kakashi, Gai still danced with a Juubi Jin superior to Kakashi's skillset).

Despite feats, Sasuke and Naruto are supposed to be equals as well.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 9, 2014)

Madara Uchiha
Naruto Uzumaki 
Sasuke Uchiha
Obito Uchiha
Gai
Hashirama
Minato
Itachi
Tobirama
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Hiruzen

Waiting until Kakashi...


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## Trojan (Aug 9, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Despite feats, Sasuke and Naruto are supposed to be equals as well.



When it was stated that they are suppose to be equal? 

and despite feats, shouldn't Hashirama and Madara supposed to be equals by this logic as well?


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## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2014)

Hussain said:


> When it was stated that they are suppose to be equal?



It doesn't need to be stated. Naruto and Sasuke's difference in power was in the past, where Naruto was a scrub and Sasuke a genius. Since Sage Mode/KCM, they have been gaining power to be similar as they improve almost at the same time.

And i doubt Harogromo would give Naruto a better powerup just because fuck Sasuke.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 9, 2014)

Hussain said:


> When it was stated that they are suppose to be equal?
> 
> and despite feats, shouldn't Hashirama and Madara supposed to be equals by this logic as well?



Kishimoto stated it in a interview:

*What is your feeling toward Sasuke now that he has gone through drastic change throughout the series?*

"Sasuke is always in the corner of my mind. Naruto and Sasuke progress as a pair. So when I write about Naruto, I always have to think about Sasuke. They are on opposite sides of the spectrum, like yin and yang."

And Hashirama and Madara are equals but in the sense that only Madara has the power to stand up to Hashirama and Hashirama has the power to stand up to Naruto. They don't exactly have to be 50/50.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 9, 2014)

At their absolute peak:

Naruto Uzumaki (Rikudo)
Sasuke Uchiha (Rikudo)
Madara Uchiha (Juubi Jinchuuriki)
Maito Gai (Eighth Gate)
Obito Uchiha (Juubi Jinchuuriki)
Kakashi Hatake (Dual MS)
Orochimaru (Edo Tensei prepared)
Hashirama Senju (Sage Mode)
Minato Namikaze (Kyuubi Jinchuuriki)
Itachi Uchiha 
Jiraiya (Sage Mode)
Tsunade (Three years of Byakugou storage)
Tobirama Senju (Edo Tensei prepared)
Hiruzen Sarutobi​​


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## Trojan (Aug 9, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> It doesn't need to be stated. Naruto and Sasuke's difference in power was in the past, where Naruto was a scrub and Sasuke a genius. Since Sage Mode/KCM, they have been gaining power to be similar as they improve almost at the same time.
> 
> And i doubt Harogromo would give Naruto a better powerup just because fuck Sasuke.



- How gaining power at the same tame means that they are supposed to be equal?
it was specifically stated that SM Naruto was stronger than, and we saw itachi thinking that KCM Naruto is also superior, and we all saw how was Sasuke's reaction to Naruto's power when he saw it.

- Hagoromo gave each of them the Tattoos, however, Naruto has the Bijuus, which Hagoromo has nothing to do with it, and that's what makes Naruto massively stronger than Sasuke. Which is painfully obvious for their fight agains Kaguya...


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## Trojan (Aug 9, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Kishimoto stated it in a interview:
> 
> *What is your feeling toward Sasuke now that he has gone through drastic change throughout the series?*
> 
> ...



Kishi states a lot of things in his interviews, does not he. 
people here don't even take the Manga's statements directly because of "feats" 
which is why for example you don't see a lot of people putting Hiruzen > Hashirama
or Jiraiya > itachi & Kisame, even though both are manga facts.

so why is Sasuke's situation different when he is clearly inferior to Naruto?  

- You think Hashirama can stand up to Madara at his peak? (Juuib's host and 3 Rinnegans?)
Well, that interesting I suppose.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 9, 2014)

No, they were equals in the past when they lived out their lives. The scenario is different now, they don't have to move as equals because ever since Madara was shown to have the Rin'negan he was above Hashirama. 

Also I don't know how old that interview is but that was the thing which popped up in my mind at first. Sasuke is inferior to Naruto but that doesn't mean they don't move as equals, they were shared the same power as their descendants and they were portrayed equals as well.


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## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - How gaining power at the same tame means that they are supposed to be equal?
> it was specifically stated that SM Naruto was stronger than, and we saw itachi thinking that KCM Naruto is also superior, and we all saw how was Sasuke's reaction to Naruto's power when he saw it.



It's because they are like Ying and Yang. I cannot argue through feats, because current Naruto would come on top, but i feel they are equal in Kishi's eyes (and mine), but in any fight, depending on who's in the "evil side" the other would lose.

Naruto said he wouldn't be able to take on Sasuke when he gained Sage Mode. And BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke without PS has fought as a pair and equals since they both met in the war. Perfect Susano'o Sasuke being equal to BSM Naruto.



> - Hagoromo gave each of them the Tattoos, however, Naruto has the Bijuus, which Hagoromo has nothing to do with it, and that's what makes Naruto massively stronger than Sasuke. Which is painfully obvious for their fight agains Kaguya...



He not only gave them the tattoos as their power increased greatly, otherwise, Naruto in base would've never touched Juudara.

Naruto got the Bijuus, but Sasuke got the Rinnegan and they are parallels to Asura and Indra, wich were almost equals, winning the one in the right path in a fight, like i said. But being generally in the same tier.

It's ok if you think otherwise actually, because Naruto's feats shits on Sasuke, something i cannot deny at all.


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2014)

Gaps represent the tiers. 


Madara Uchiha
Naruto Uzumaki
Sasuke Uchiha
Obito Uchiha


Madara, logically, should be at the top with access to the Rinnegan and the Jūbi. He's very experienced, very powerful, very versatile, and portrayed above Naruto and Sasuke, individually at least.

Naruto is only rated above Sasuke because he's performed better thus far. 

Both are rated above Obito because I got the sense that Madara needed both Rinnegan to compete with either shinobi. Even if one was to say that Single-Eyed Madara was indeed stronger than Naruto and Sasuke, Obito is much weaker than him regardless.

Gai
Hashirama Senju
Kakashi Hatake


With everything I've seen from Hashirama, I still think he's superior to Kakashi. He's only slightly less haxy, but has eons more firepower. Kakashi can very much kill Hashirama though, so he still deserves to be in the tier.

Gai is at the top because the 8th Gate can compete with the tier above this one. Neither Kakashi nor Hashirama is likely to kill Gai before he uses it (while Obito and up are), thus the placement.


Minato Namikaze
Tobirama Senju
Itachi Uchiha


Pay no attention to the order here. Match ups in this tier are _heavily_ based on the stipulations. Tobirama may be slightly worse than Itachi and Minato, but many would claim he's actually slightly _better._ I don't really need to explain this tier any further; people know the deal by now.


Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru


The Sannin are all on the exact same level, so again, disregard the order. I think they're a tad bit worse than Minato, Itachi, and Tobirama, based on a multitude of things. The gap isn't very big, but definitely there.


Hiruzen Sarutobi
Hiruzen can't keep up with these guys in his old age. I mean, Orochimaru could toy with him...


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## Cognitios (Aug 9, 2014)

lol @ hussain
KCM Minato > Prime Hiruzen > SM Hashirama
Feats or hype, can't have it both ways


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## Dr. White (Aug 9, 2014)

Sasuke/Naruto
Madara
Kakashi
Gai
Obito

Hashirama

Minato/Tobirama/Itachi

Sannin
Old Hiruzen


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## StickaStick (Aug 9, 2014)

At their peak:

Mads
Naruto / Sasuke (based on author intention; otherwise I would have Sasuke lower)
Obito
Gai (8th-Gate)
Hashirama / Prime Hiruzen
Minato
Itachi
Tobirama
Jiraiya
Oro (No ET)
Tsunade

Need to see what Kakashi can do first (can his Susanoo phase? etc.) before ranking him. Although I suspect he'll fall in-between Juubito and 8th-Gate Gai.


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## Dr. White (Aug 9, 2014)

Off bat I'm gonna go ahead and say the man with that doubles in hax and Raw Power is gonna be >>> 8th Gate Gai. Kamui alone put Obito high up on the tier list back in the day, and made Kakashi an opponent for the higher ups. Double Kamui is broken, like even if you manage to beat getting caught, Kakashi has his 1000 Jutsu, and Susano Forms 1 - PS to defend/attack.


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## StickaStick (Aug 9, 2014)

Honestly I wouldn't discount the possibility that Kishi might gimp Kakashi, which would not be the first time he's gimped a Kamui user for the sake of plot (se: Juubito). Trust me when I say I probably put more stock into the haxx of Full-Kamui + P-Susanoo than most. Realistically with Kaguya's lack of knowledge I don't see why Kakashi couldn't simply Kamui snipe her head off. Also, I don't want to hear that she would just absorb it considering she didn't absorb Naruto's latest attack and she saw that coming from a mile away


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## Dr. White (Aug 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> Honestly I wouldn't discount the possibility that Kishi might gimp Kakashi, which would not be the first time he's gimped a Kamui user for the sake of plot (se: Juubito). Trust me when I say I probably put more stock into the haxx of Full-Kamui + P-Susanoo than most. Realistically with Kaguya's lack of knowledge I don't see why Kakashi couldn't simply Kamui snipe her head off. Also, I don't want to hear that she would just absorb it considering she didn't absorb Naruto's latest attack and she saw that coming from a mile away



I doubt it.

Kaguya is a prime dimension hopping pro. Obito was lolsurprised that she could warp through dimensions so easily. If he tries to Kamui her she negates it with her own.


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## RBL (Aug 9, 2014)

Juubidara
RS Naruto
Gai
Juubito
Sasuke
Hashirama
Kakashi
Minato (only with BM)
Itachi
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Hiruzen/Tsunade


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2014)

Madara
Naruto
Sasuke 
Obito
Kakashi
Gai
Hashirama
Orochimaru
Itachi
Hiruzen
Tobirama
Minato
Jiraiya
Tsunade


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## StickaStick (Aug 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> Kaguya is a prime dimension hopping pro. Obito was lolsurprised that she could warp through dimensions so easily. If he tries to Kamui her she negates it with her own.



That's if she sees it coming. What kind of indication of it would she have before dbl-warp speed takes her head off? I could see what you're saying if she was constantly moving, but she's been completely stationary for a good few parts of this battle so Kakashi would only need to wait for the right moment.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gaps represent the tiers.
> 
> 
> Madara Uchiha
> ...



Basically this, except that Tsunade is actually significantly weaker then Orochimaru and Jiraiya. 

I would put a Young Hiruzen where Itachi, Tobirama and Minato are (Taking his Edo Feats in account).



The Format said:


> Honestly I wouldn't discount the possibility that Kishi might gimp Kakashi, which would not be the first time he's gimped a Kamui user for the sake of plot (se: Juubito). Trust me when I say I probably put more stock into the haxx of Full-Kamui + P-Susanoo than most. Realistically with Kaguya's lack of knowledge I don't see why Kakashi couldn't simply Kamui snipe her head off. Also, I don't want to hear that she would just absorb it considering she didn't absorb Naruto's latest attack and she saw that coming from a mile away



She is more then fast enough to dodge Kamui.


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## StickaStick (Aug 9, 2014)

Speed doesn't help much when your stationary and don't see the attack coming. I can tell you right now there will be openings otherwise how is she going to be sealed when she could just lolwarp away.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> Speed doesn't help much when your stationary and don't see the attack coming. I can tell you right now there will be openings otherwise how is she going to be sealed when she could just lolwarp away.



Are we talking about deformed Kaguya or regular Kaguya?


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## Kai (Aug 9, 2014)

Hiruzen has and probably will always leave me stumped.

Madara Uchiha
Naruto Uzumaki
Sasuke Uchiha
Obito Uchiha
Maito Gai
Hashirama Senju
Kakashi Hatake
Minato Namikaze
Tobirama Senju/Uchiha Itachi
Tobirama Senju/Uchiha Itachi
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Tsunade

It can really go either way between Tobirama and Itachi.


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Off bat I'm gonna go ahead and say the man with that doubles in hax and Raw Power is gonna be >>> 8th Gate Gai.



Depends on the distance, because at any normal distance Gai would speed blitz Kakashi before he could blink, let alone activate a jutsu.

Also, Kakashi being superior to Jūbito is kind of lel in my opinion; he isn't even likely to beat Hashirama imo.


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## Invictus-Kun (Aug 9, 2014)

I just wonder why a lot of here put Maddy on top where can's even handle alone, Naruto or Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2014)

Juubidara
Juubito
Naruto
Sasuke
Gai
Prime Hiruzen (Hype)
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Itachi
Tsunade (depending on amount of chakra in Byakugo-Seal) 

Orochimaru and Kakashi I leave out till we know more about their abilities.


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## Invictus-Kun (Aug 9, 2014)

Did'nt Juubidara suffered when Nardo landed a rasenshuriken in him and he absrobed the tree.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 9, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> I just wonder why a lot of here put Maddy on top where can's even handle alone, Naruto or Sasuke.



Because he was handling both of them together once he got his second eye.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Did'nt Juubidara suffered when Nardo landed a rasenshuriken in him and he absrobed the tree.


He was already beat up from Gai, but yeah, that was before he re-absorbed the tree and got the second eye.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 9, 2014)

Naruto 
Sasuke 
Hashirama Senju
Madara Uchiha
Obito
Kabuto
Itachi
Hiruzen
Orochimaru
Tobirama
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Minato
Kakashi Hatake
Sakura


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## Dr. White (Aug 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Depends on the distance, because at any normal distance Gai would speed blitz Kakashi before he could blink, let alone activate a jutsu.
> 
> Also, Kakashi being superior to Jūbito is kind of lel in my opinion; he isn't even likely to beat Hashirama imo.



IMO Kakashi's reactions are gonna be boosted with 2 MS (logically more pre-cog) , and seeing as he just outpaced a Kaguya hand streaming towards Sakura I think it's fair to say he could outreact Gai. Double Kamui is going to be extremely hard to beat both ways, and PS will give Kakashi protection from any single hit that isn't Night Gai. (which is long enough to warp through.)

Hashi is just a good matchup for Kamui users in general but I still think double Kamui catches him eventually.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 10, 2014)

1. Juubi Madara
2. Gai
3. Juubi Obito
4. Naruto/Sasuke
5. Prime Hiruzen
6. Hashirama/Madara
7. Rinnegan Obito/PS Kakashi
8. Minato/Tobirama/Itachi
9. Jiraiya/Orochimaru/Tsunade


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 10, 2014)

In their strongest incarnations?

Madara
Obito
Naruto/Sasuke
Hashirama
Orochimaru
Kakashi
Gai
Hiruzen
Itachi/Minato
Tobirama
Jiraiya
Tsunade


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## ARGUS (Aug 10, 2014)

1. Madara (Double Rinnegan Juubi Jin)
2. RSM Naruto
3. Rinnegan Sasuke
4. Juubito
5. 8th gate guy
6. Kakashi
7. Hashirama
8. Minato
9. Tobirama
10. Itachi
11. Jiraiya
12. Orochimaru
13. Tsunade


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## Panther (Aug 10, 2014)

[1]RSM Naruto
[2]Rinnegan Sasuke
[3]Juubidara
[4]Juubito
[5]8th gated Gai
[6]SM Hashirama
[7]BM Minato
[8]Kakashi
[9]Tobirama/MS Itachi
[11]SM Jiraiya
[12]Tsunade/Orochimaru w/o
[13] Hiruzen


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## Santoryu (Aug 10, 2014)

Kakashi is somewhat of an enigma from a combat point of view at the moment, but powerscaling and common sense would suggest would suggest he's one of the strongest characters in the verse-only a few characters are outright stronger than him. I don't think Hashirama is one of them, that's for sure.


Jubidara
Naruto
Jubito
Sasuke
Kakashi
Gai (final gate)
Hashirama
Minato
Itachi/Tobirama/ Pre PS Kakashi
Hiruzen
Jiraiya/Orochimaru
Tsunade


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## JuicyG (Aug 10, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Despite feats, Sasuke and Naruto are supposed to be equals as well.




What part about Sasuke have u seen to be equal with Naruto ? Sasuke has literally been looking like a full tier below Naruto. His PS was getting 4 shotted, and his teleportation was being evaded. Naruto has done all the damage to Kaguya and was even able to blitz her. 


Naruto>>>Sasuke


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Anyone who has clones and could destroy PS can beat Kakashi. Hashirama is most definitely one of those people.

(Hashirama won't even need to destroy PS, he has what it takes to simply outlast it seeing how well he was doing against Kurama + PS.)


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## Mercurial (Aug 10, 2014)

Madara Uchiha (full power Juubi Jinchuuriki + SM + Rinnegan)
Naruto Uzumaki (Rikudo Senjutsu + BSM)
Sasuke Uchiha (Rinnegan + Rikudo)
Maito Gai (8th Gate)
Obito Uchiha (Juubi Jinchuuriki)
Kakashi Hatake (EMS/Dual MS)

Hashirama Senju (Sage Mode)

Minato Namikaze (Edo BM)

Tobirama Senju
Orochimaru (Edo Tensei prepared)
Itachi Uchiha

Jiraiya (Sage Mode)

Tsunade
Hiruzen Sarutobi


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Madara Uchiha (full power Juubi Jinchuuriki + SM + Rinnegan)
> Naruto Uzumaki (Rikudo Senjutsu + BSM)
> Sasuke Uchiha (Rinnegan + Rikudo)
> Maito Gai (8th Gate)
> ...



How can Orochimaru possibly be behind the likes of Hashirama and Tobirama with Edo prepped? You do realize he has Hashirama and Tobirama as well as Minato and Hiruzen as Edos right? He should be above Gai with Edos prepped.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 10, 2014)

Naruto
Sasuke
Juubidara
Juubito
Orochimaru
Hiruzen(Prime)
Hashirama
Minato
Kakashi
Tobirama
Itachi
Tsunade
Gai


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## Mercurial (Aug 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> How can Orochimaru possibly be behind the likes of Hashirama and Tobirama with Edo prepped? You do realize he has Hashirama and Tobirama as well as Minato and Hiruzen as Edos right? He should be above Gai with Edos prepped.



The fact that he has Edo Tensei prepped doesn't mean that he is effectively going to use Edo Tensei. For example, Hashirama can Mokustomp his ass before he can even summon or while he is summoning, or simply stomp Orochimaru + Edo Minato + Edo Tobirama + Edo Hiruzen. Tobirama can probably intercept him with Hiraishin and smartness and the same for Minato + Bijuu Dama as he has BM, so they can avoid that he summons the Edo, they don't necessarily have to make him summon and then fight him. 

Gai with 8th Gate absolutely murks them, he just couldn't kill the Edo but of course he can blitz Orochimaru while he is summoning. He could do it with 7th Gate actually and without any trouble.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 10, 2014)

Why the heck is Gai rated so highly , 8th Gates have been known about by every major character for yrs , yet no one considered Gai being stronger than Minato/Hashirama, you really think kishi wants you to think Gai is stronger than Hashirama.


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## Dominus (Aug 10, 2014)

Madara
Naruto
Sasuke
Obito
Gai (8th Gate)
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Itachi
Jiraiya
Orochimaru (w/o Edo Tensei)
Tsunade

I'm not sure where to place Hiruzen and Kakashi considering their lack of feats.


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## Mercurial (Aug 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Why the heck is Gai rated so highly , 8th Gates have been known about by every major character for yrs , yet no one considered Gai being stronger than Minato/Hashirama, you really think kishi wants you to think Gai is stronger than Hashirama.



Yeah, that's weird doesn't it


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> The fact that he has Edo Tensei prepped doesn't mean that he is effectively going to use Edo Tensei. For example, Hashirama can Mokustomp his ass before he can even summon or while he is summoning, or simply stomp Orochimaru + Edo Minato + Edo Tobirama + Edo Hiruzen. Tobirama can probably intercept him with Hiraishin and smartness and the same for Minato + Bijuu Dama as he has BM, so they can avoid that he summons the Edo, they don't necessarily have to make him summon and then fight him.
> 
> Gai with 8th Gate absolutely murks them, he just couldn't kill the Edo but of course he can blitz Orochimaru while he is summoning. He could do it with 7th Gate actually and without any trouble.



It hardly takes any time to summon the Edo's and Orochimaru is one of the hardest characters to put down in the manga. 

By the time Hashirama makes a Mokuton construct, Orochimaru would have already summoned the Edos. Tobirama might slash at Orochimaru before Orochimaru uses Edos but slashes won't kill Orochimaru, even cutting him in half won't wipe the smile of his face. By the time Minato enters BM and charges a Bijudama, Orochimaru would have already long summoned the Edos. Gai can't 1 Hit KO Orochimaru, so Orochimaru tanks a hit and then uses Edo Tensei.


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## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Why the heck is Gai rated so highly , 8th Gates have been known about by every major character for yrs , yet no one considered Gai being stronger than Minato/Hashirama, you really think kishi wants you to think Gai is stronger than Hashirama.



Of course not. Kishi only made Gai kick Juubi Jin Madara, a stronger being than Hashirama generally because Avatar Aang likes Coca-Cola .


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## Jad (Aug 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> It hardly takes any time to summon the Edo's and Orochimaru is one of the hardest characters to put down in the manga.
> 
> By the time Hashirama makes a Mokuton construct, Orochimaru would have already summoned the Edos. Tobirama might slash at Orochimaru before Orochimaru uses Edos but slashes won't kill Orochimaru, even cutting him in half won't wipe the smile of his face. By the time Minato enters BM and charges a Bijudama, Orochimaru would have already long summoned the Edos. Gai can't 1 Hit KO Orochimaru, so Orochimaru tanks a hit and then uses Edo Tensei.



Once guy initiates a fight in the Gates, and the opponent doesn't have the physical prowess to halt or counter Gai. Boy, Gai is going to be on this guy like white on rice on a paper plate in a snow storm. Gai loves to hover his downed opponents, he did with Kisame twice. His going to ground pound this guy until he his brain is mush. I definetly think Orochimari is more resilient (of course) than he is durable. Itachi with hardly any strength feats, cut Orochimaru's hand (bone) without struggling or a missed beat. If Itachi can cut through bone like that with a Kunai, Afternoon tiger, 7th Gate beat down until Gai runs out of stamina (which he canonically did in the manga, only to proceed to open the 8th Gate - which shows Gai's second burst).

Also, if this is 8th Gate, pink mist Orochimaru with Evening Elephant. If Orochimaru is dead, I call the fight over. On top of that, Orochimaru is going to struggle to hold Hashirama in his place with him resisting. Which is not a situation you want to be in.


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> It hardly takes any time to summon the Edo's and Orochimaru is one of the hardest characters to put down in the manga.
> 
> By the time Hashirama makes a Mokuton construct, Orochimaru would have already summoned the Edos. Tobirama might slash at Orochimaru before Orochimaru uses Edos but slashes won't kill Orochimaru, even cutting him in half won't wipe the smile of his face. By the time Minato enters BM and charges a Bijudama, Orochimaru would have already long summoned the Edos. Gai can't 1 Hit KO Orochimaru, so Orochimaru tanks a hit and then uses Edo Tensei.


Hashirama's Mokuton is far faster than Orochimaru clapping his hands. He would have been stopped before he is still processing the action.

Tobirama would mark him with Hiraishin and then stop him everytime, Minato just nuke him. Gai can blitzstomp Orochimaru with Hiru Tora forcing him to exchange body, or simply blitz and kick him while he is trying to summon, and in 8th Gate a single Sekizo would vaporize him.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Hashirama's Mokuton is far faster than Orochimaru clapping his hands. He would have been stopped before he is still processing the action.
> 
> Tobirama would mark him with Hiraishin and then stop him everytime, Minato just nuke him. Gai can blitzstomp Orochimaru with Hiru Tora forcing him to exchange body, or simply blitz and kick him while he is trying to summon, and in 8th Gate a single Sekizo would vaporize him.



Last time I checked, Hashirama has too clap his hands himself to use Mokuton..........

He won't be stopping him if he spends his time marking him, and Orochimaru can get rid of the body that is marked. Orochimaru can clap his hands faster then Minato goes into BM and charges Bijudama. Gai hits Orochimaru nice, Orochimaru goes flying. Orochimaru uses Oral Rebirth and quickly uses ET before Gai gets too him. Orochimaru is the worst possible opponent against characters like Gai and Tsunade. 



Jad said:


> Once guy initiates a fight in the Gates, and the opponent doesn't have the physical prowess to halt or counter Gai. Boy, Gai is going to be on this guy like white on rice on a paper plate in a snow storm. Gai loves to hover his downed opponents, he did with Kisame twice. His going to ground pound this guy until he his brain is mush. I definetly think Orochimari is more resilient (of course) than he is durable. Itachi with hardly any strength feats, cut Orochimaru's hand (bone) without struggling or a missed beat. If Itachi can cut through bone like that with a Kunai, Afternoon tiger, 7th Gate beat down until Gai runs out of stamina (which he canonically did in the manga, only to proceed to open the 8th Gate - which shows Gai's second burst).



Thing is, no matter how hard Gai beats Orochimaru, Oro will simply make himself a new body after the beating is done. Furthermore, Gai tends to hit his opponent once to send him flying in the 8th Gate as shown against Madara. 



> Also, if this is 8th Gate, pink mist Orochimaru with Evening Elephant. If Orochimaru is dead, I call the fight over. On top of that, Orochimaru is going to struggle to hold Hashirama in his place with him resisting. Which is not a situation you want to be in.



In a 1 Vs 1 condition, I think Hashirama has to be on Orochimaru's side.


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## Psp123789 (Aug 10, 2014)

Jubidara
Naruto
Sasuke
Juubito
Oro w/edos
Gai (final gate)
Hashirama
Minato
Itachi/Tobirama/Kakashi
Jirayia/orochimaru
Tsunade
Old Hiruzen


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## Jad (Aug 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch I don't want to debate you if I understand what I think you're saying. Are you saying Orochimaru can survive one Evening Elephant from Gai?


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Last time I checked, Hashirama has too clap his hands himself to use Mokuton..........
> 
> He won't be stopping him if he spends his time marking him, and Orochimaru can get rid of the body that is marked. Orochimaru can clap his hands faster then Minato goes into BM and charges Bijudama. Gai hits Orochimaru nice, Orochimaru goes flying. Orochimaru uses Oral Rebirth and quickly uses ET before Gai gets too him. Orochimaru is the worst possible opponent against characters like Gai and Tsunade.
> 
> ...


And last time I checked, Hashirama is faster than Orochimaru in everything. Also even if they act at the same time (which it isn't), Hashirama's Mokuton would immediately be around the Edo coffins.

When he changes body (something that can't be spammed) Tobirama would just mark him again. And Minato could do the same. And Gai endlessy stomp him. In 8th Gate he would simply pulverize him.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Jad said:


> Destiny Monarch I don't want to debate you if I understand what I think you're saying. Are you saying Orochimaru can survive one Evening Elephant from Gai?



He does not have to tank one. His body can be violently mutilated beyond repair, but he will simply make himself another body. 



Raikiri19 said:


> And last time I checked, Hashirama is faster than Orochimaru in everything. Also even if they act at the same time (which it isn't), Hashirama's Mokuton would immediately be around the Edo coffins.



He is. But that does not mean he stop Orochimaru from making a couple of hand seals. All Orochimaru needs to do is summon the coffins, the Edo's can break out of the coffins themselvs (Just like Madara did). 



> When he changes body (something that can't be spammed) Tobirama would just mark him again. And Minato could do the same. And Gai endlessy stomp him. In 8th Gate he would simply pulverize him.



Marking Orochimaru won't stop him from making hand seals. Ask yourself, is a physical punch capable of pulverizing in the Narutoverse?


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Why the heck is Gai rated so highly , 8th Gates have been known about by every major character for yrs , yet no one considered Gai being stronger than Minato/Hashirama, you really think kishi wants you to think Gai is stronger than Hashirama.



Has guy ever been compared to those guys? The answer is no so there is no basis to ckaim guy is stronger or weaker due to these guys due to hype. since hyoe has no barring in their tier placing we then use feats. and since guy beat the every living crap out of a madara who punked both these characters you named.. then that means kishi places guy on a higher tier than these characters.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Has guy ever been compared to those guys? The answer is no so there is no basis to ckaim guy is stronger or weaker due to these guys due to hype. since hyoe has no barring in their tier placing we then use feats. and since guy beat the every living crap out of a madara who punked both these characters you named.. then that means kishi places guy on a higher tier than these characters.




Yeah but it has been stated over and over again throughout the story how powerful Hashirama and Minato and The Sannin are , they were historical figures who were benchmarks for the MC's throughout the structure of the story at one point in time they were considered the strongest characters , and thats despite everyone in Konoha knowing what Gai was capable of with the 8th Gates , and technically he fought a Madara who wasn't even fighting back and just stood there as a punching bag for Gai , while Gai was near death in the process , thats the problem with Gai he has one very powerful technique that last 5 minutes and costs him his life , while Hashirama may be weaker than Juubi Jin Madara can fight at an elite level with ease and sustain that power level for his entire life , you can say the 8th Gates grants him an ability for a short period of time that allows him to fight with the big boys , but Me I'm all about consistency.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Actipns speak louder than words. it doesnt matter that everyone praises the old guys... basically only hasgirama actually lived up to his hype..everyone else not so much. 
.
also how do you figure everyone knowd what guy is capable of? As far as it seems to me that eas guys first time using gates. 

Also madara was actively trying tp fight guy.. he kept trying different tatics that got shut down and his gudodama orbs got sent away which is his main form of offense.

and if consistency is your game for bring able to fight at high end.. then base guy covers that.. he has impressive feats all around.


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## StickaStick (Aug 10, 2014)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is about ranking Konaha's shinobi _at their peak_. To have Gai below the likes of the Sannin is asinine to say the least (with the exception being Oro if you afford him ET). Besides the obvious, I could accept an argument for him being below Hashirama, Mads, and maybe even Minato (KCM), but anything further than that is simply ignoring the manga canon. Furthermore, Gai doesn't even need the 8th-Gate to defeat the likes of the Sannin and arguably Itachi and Tobirama; the 7th-Gate would give him a respectable shot as beating any of them.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 10, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Why the heck is Gai rated so highly , 8th Gates have been known about by every major character for yrs , yet no one considered Gai being stronger than Minato/Hashirama, you really think kishi wants you to think Gai is stronger than Hashirama.



Well obviously he does considering his fight against Juubidara. No one has put Juubidara on that level of defense, and hardly any characters can survive Evening Elephant let alone Night Moth. I don't see why this is surprising that he is that strong, Kishi had kept Gai and his final gate in the dark for a long time until Gai's moment came so he was obviously going to be very strong.


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## RBL (Aug 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is about ranking Konaha's shinobi _at their peak_. To have Gai below the likes of the Sannin is asinine to say the least (with the exception being Oro if you afford him ET). Besides the obvious, I could accept an argument for him being below Hashirama, Mads, and maybe even Minato (KCM), but anything further than that is simply ignoring the manga canon. Furthermore, Gai doesn't even need the 8th-Gate to defeat the likes of the Sannin and arguably Itachi and Tobirama; the 7th-Gate would give him a respectable shot as beating any of them.



yeah i know but elyiua is a well-known Team Gai hater, and he likes to shit on gai everytime he can.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

We have to defend our sensei's honour isnt that right brandon-san?


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## Nikushimi (Aug 10, 2014)

8th Gate Gai would fucking bury Orochimaru's and Kabuto's combined Edo Tensei army back in the ground.

The summoner(s) would probably just be killed accidentally in the crossfire.


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## Rocky (Aug 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> IMO Kakashi's reactions are gonna be boosted with 2 MS (logically more pre-cog) , and seeing as he just outpaced a Kaguya hand streaming towards Sakura I think it's fair to say he could outreact Gai.



Jubi Madara barley got his arms up against Sekizo. I'm not seeing what chance Kakashi has to do anything but get fisted.



> Hashi is just a good matchup for Kamui users in general but I still think double Kamui catches him eventually.



Mokuton Clones can protect against ranged Kamui.

Shin Susenju breaks Susano'o, and a subsequent Flower World puts Kakashi to sleep.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 10, 2014)

Hashi's flower Jutsu is featless and it didn't even work on the five Kage.

I doubt that shit will pose any threat to Kakashi whatsoever.

Hashi's better off just spamming Mokuton clones so he can win by attrition.


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## Rocky (Aug 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashi's flower Jutsu is featless and it didn't even work on the five Kage.
> 
> I doubt that shit will pose any threat to Kakashi whatsoever.
> 
> Hashi's better off just spamming Mokuton clones so he can win by attrition.



Go ahead and post a scan of Kakashi being immune to the pollen, because it knocked all five Kage out cold.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Hashirama is fast enough to avoid Kamui and would *probably* even sense the pressure coming from the eye even before Kamui is used (Kind like a Precog). Furthermore, he has clones, if one where to Kamui a clone its basically GG for them as the second they phase they would be killed by the clone in the other dimension. Kamui is really not a threat to someone of Hashiramas caliber. PS would be troublesome, but he has shown that he can survive its onslaught (Kurama + PS onslaught to be more precise) for quiet a while, and I highly doubt Kakashi has the stamina to keep PS up for longer then Hashirama survived Madara's Kurama+PS onslaught for. But even if he has to resort to Shinsuusenju, that will be the win sealer. 

There goes any Kakashi argument down the drain. GG.



Nikushimi said:


> Hashi's flower Jutsu is featless and it didn't even work on the five Kage.
> 
> I doubt that shit will pose any threat to Kakashi whatsoever.
> 
> Hashi's better off just spamming Mokuton clones so he can win by attrition.



It is either as strong or stronger then Madaras Kajukai Korin. And the Kages got knocked out cold, Oonoki was able to Will himself back to consciousness (Similar to Jiraiya) and managed to pull off a massive Jinton to vaporize all the pollen, even if Kakashi miraculously gained a feat of Will power that matched that of Oonoki's (Who is only second to Jiraiya in Will power feats) he still has no way of eradicating all of the pollen, so he will fall back asleep fairly quickly.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Go ahead and post a scan of Kakashi being immune to the pollen, because it knocked all five Kage out cold.





Destiny Monarch said:


> It is either as strong or stronger then Madaras Kajukai Korin. And the Kages got knocked out cold, Oonoki was able to Will himself back to consciousness (Similar to Jiraiya) and managed to pull off a massive Jinton to vaporize all the pollen, even if Kakashi miraculously gained a feat of Will power that matched that of Oonoki's (Who is only second to Jiraiya in Will power feats) he still has no way of eradicating all of the pollen, so he will fall back asleep fairly quickly.



I thought the Kage just collapsed from exhaustion.

Either way, Madara had to physically knock them into it and Hashi can't very well do that to Perfect Susano'o; he needs Shinsuusenju to tear that fucker down and he can't bother with the flower tree Jutsu if he's manning that one.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

How does guy get affected by the pollen when his aura in sixth gate pushes back part of a lake and seventh gate pushes back the ocean?


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I thought the Kage just collapsed from exhaustion.
> 
> Either way, Madara had to physically knock them into it and Hashi can't very well do that to Perfect Susano'o; he needs Shinsuusenju to tear that fucker down and he can't bother with the flower tree Jutsu if he's manning that one.



Kakashi's Stamina is very limited, especially once he uses PS. Hashirama can simply hide in his Mokuton until Kakashi runs out of chakra and falls down. And I don't see why he can't use Kajukai Korin followed up by Shinsuusenju, he has done way more then that against Madara at VOTE.


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## Jagger (Aug 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gaps represent the tiers.
> 
> 
> Madara Uchiha
> ...


I agree with everything on this list.

However, as I've seen others debating about it, Naruto is better than Sasuke currently or, at least, he's been portrayed as an all-round shinobi with amazing physical strength, huge chakra reserves, speed, diversity, etc. while Sasuke only recieved one power-up that is basically a S/t technique that got shat on by Kaguya while Naruto effortlessly tore off Kaguya's arm by just running to where she was.

I don't know what Kishi is thinking, but Sasuke has been just a sidekick through the entire fight.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 10, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I agree with everything on this list.
> 
> However, as I've seen others debating about it, Naruto is better than Sasuke currently or, at least, he's been portrayed as an all-round shinobi with amazing physical strength, huge chakra reserves, speed, diversity, etc. while Sasuke only recieved one power-up that is basically a S/t technique that got shat on by Kaguya while Naruto effortlessly tore off Kaguya's arm by just running to where she was.
> 
> I don't know what Kishi is thinking, but Sasuke has been just a sidekick through the entire fight.



Its because Naruto was a Sidekick when they where facing Madara (Even Kakashi acknowledged it).


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## FlamingRain (Aug 10, 2014)

_*1.)*_Madara (post-Ten Tailed Tree absorption)
_*2.)*_Naruto (Six Paths Sage Technique)
_*3.)*_Sasuke (Six Tomoe Rinnegan)
_*4.)*_Obito (Relatively controlled Ten Tails Jinchūriki)


_*5.)*_Gai (Red Steam Gate)
_*6.)*_Hashirama
_*7.)*_Kakashi (Double Sharingan), Madara (if the peak has to be prior to the Edo Tensei phase)


_*8.)*_Tobirama
_*9.)*_Minato, Itachi
_*10.)*_Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunade


_*11.)*_Gai (if we mean peak without killing himself)
_*12.)*_Elderly Hiruzen


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## Rocky (Aug 10, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I thought the Kage just collapsed from exhaustion.
> 
> Either way, Madara had to physically knock them into it and Hashi can't very well do that to Perfect Susano'o; he needs Shinsuusenju to tear that fucker down and he can't bother with the flower tree Jutsu if he's manning that one.



Read my original post again. Shin Susenju tears Susano'o apart and instead of using the Wood Human to beat the Nine Tails (like in the manga), he uses Flower World to beat Kakashi's phasing. 

Yes, the pollen is indeed what kcocked all of the kage out. They didn't all just randomly collapse from exhaustion at the same time.


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## Jagger (Aug 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Its because Naruto was a Sidekick when they where facing Madara (Even Kakashi acknowledged it).


If anything, it looked more as if Naruto and Sasuke were working together as a team.

Now, it just looks like Naruto vs Kaguya.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2014)

1. Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto Uzumaki: He's been basically fighting Kaguya one on one, overpowered her physically and continuously outwitted her despite her having the Byakugan and Tomoed Rinnegan. He's also ripped her arm off and forced her to take Ten-Tails form all on his own.
2. Two-Eyed Rinnegan Juubi Jin Madara Uchiha: Being able to fully control the Jyubi while having both his Rinnegan shows how strong he is with the Limbo and Chibaku Tensei spam. Not much more to say.
3. One-Eyed Rinnegan Sasuke Uchiha: Could effortlessly defeat Madara's weaker form, has a Perfect Susano'o which can carve up country size Chibaku Tensei like they're nothing, and a hax teleportation technique puts him at this place. 
4. Juubi Jin Obito Uchiha: Could effortlessly own all four Hokages, EMS Sasuke, and KCM and even BM Naruto with ease. Has shown the greatest control over the Gudodama's as well and could assum the Ten-Tails original form at will.
5. Eight Gated Might Guy: Could fight one-Eyed Juubi Jin Madara evenly, shatter Gudodama with his strength, and nearly kill Madara with Seikizo. He's the strongest person without Senjutsu or a Dojutsu.

6. Hashirama Senju: Not much more needs to be said. Hashirama was the strongest of the four Hokages, could defeat EMS Madara when he was using Kurama with Perfect Susano'o. Fitting the God of Shinobi.
7. Perfect Susano'o Kakashi Hatake: With dual Kamui hax as well as a flying Perfect Susano'o, Kakashi solidly ranks as the seventh strongest Konoha shinobi now. Just under Hashirama.
8. Minato Namikaze (BM or no BM): Fastest Shinobi to ever exist, defeated 1000 Iwa Shinobi in a single battle, ripped off Obito's arm after he was weakened, teleported Kurama and his Bijudama, teleported the Jyubi's Bijudama away with ease.
9. Tobirama Senju: Second fastest Shinobi to exist (excluding Juubi Jins and Eight Gated Gai), could defeat a shinobi equal in strength to MS Madara, and Madara said their strengths were never far apart.
10. Jiraiya: Strongest of the Sannin, could defeat Orochimaru at the time of the Sound/Sand Invasion, could defeat three paths of Pain and would have defeated all six with prior knowledge, and could handle Naruto's KN4 form.
11. Itachi Uchiha: Strongest Uchiha next to Madara, Izuna, and Sasuke, master of the Mangekyo, could defeat Orochimaru (though we don't know how long the battle was), as well as multiple high level Jonins at the same time while holding back.


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## trance (Aug 10, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Naruto Uzumaki
> Sasuke Uchiha
> Hashirama Senju
> Madara Uchiha
> ...



1. Dual Rinnegan Juubi Jinchuriki Madara/Rikudou Mode Naruto
2. Sharinnegan Sasuke
3. Red Gate Gai
4. Juubi Jinchuriki Obito

_-Enormous Gap-_

5. Sage Mode Hashirama
6. Dual Mangekyo Sharingan Kakashi (?)

_-Large Gap-_

7. Minato 
8. Tobirama/Itachi

_-Smaller Gap-_

9. Sage Mode Jiraiya
10. Orochimaru
11. Tsunade
12. Old Hiruzen


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## Invictus-Kun (Aug 11, 2014)

Naruto
Sasuke
Madara
Kakashi
Obito
Harashima


dont care who's next


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## ueharakk (Aug 11, 2014)

1) Juubidara double rinnegan + sharinnegan + Juubi jin
2) Naruto
3) Sasuke
4) Juubito
5) 8th gated Gai
6) Hashirama
7) BM Minato
8) Kakashi (lowest limit)
9) Tobirama
10) Itachi
11) Jiraiya
12) Orochimaru (w/o edo)
13) Tsunade

I'm putting Kakashi at 8 for now since we don't know what his PS can do and therefore I'm evaluating him as if he was EMS Madara w/o kurama


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Why would Naruto still be below Madara, ueharrak, given the beaten he just gave Kaguya?


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## ueharakk (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why would Naruto still be below Madara, ueharrak, given the beaten he just gave Kaguya?



Naruto wouldn't even be here if Obito didn't take the bullet for him.

I also find it dumb that Kishi would have Naruto be more powerful than someone who he and Sasuke were facing together.  

I'm not saying Naruto can't be stronger than JJ MAdara, however if I'm going to say he is via feats, I'm going to wait till after this fight to claim that.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto wouldn't even be here if Obito didn't take the bullet for him.
> 
> I also find it dumb that Kishi would have Naruto be more powerful than someone who he and Sasuke were facing together.
> 
> I'm not saying Naruto can't be stronger than JJ MAdara, however if I'm going to say he is via feats, I'm going to wait till after this fight to claim that.


Naruto has been pulling most of the weight against Kaguya though, overpowered her a few times and stalemated her power. Not to mention ripping off her arm and giving her such a beating she turned Ten-Tails. Kind of shows that he has become stronger than JJ Madara (given he already gave HIM a beating too without Rikudo Senjutsu), and Sasuke would be needed to SEAL him.


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## ueharakk (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto has been pulling most of the weight against Kaguya though, overpowered her a few times and stalemated her power. Not to mention ripping off her arm and giving her such a beating she turned Ten-Tails. *Kind of shows that he has become stronger than JJ Madara (given he already gave HIM a beating too without Rikudo Senjutsu),* and Sasuke would be needed to SEAL him.


It's true about the unbolded, and the bolded might follow from it, but I'm simply going to withhold making a judgement based on that until i've seen the whole fight through.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto has been pulling most of the weight against Kaguya though, overpowered her a few times and stalemated her power. Not to mention ripping off her arm and giving her such a beating she turned Ten-Tails. Kind of shows that he has become stronger than JJ Madara (given he already gave HIM a beating too without Rikudo Senjutsu), and Sasuke would be needed to SEAL him.



He has been saved a 3-4 times against Kaguya. Furthermore, Kaguya was holding back for a large portion of the battle because of emotions. The blitz of Kaguya was totally plot induced, the fact that she did not even heal from it (While Madara was able to grow back half his body soon after loosing it) is even more plot induced. Fact is, he couldn't even blitz Post-Shinju One-Eyed Madara despite blind siding him, and he couldn't deal with Limbo clones until Sasuke thouroughly explained to him the strength and weaknesses of Limbo and how it works as a whole. Not to mention Madara did not even use half of the impressive arsenal that he displayed before due to PIS. Madara >>> Naruto.


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## StickaStick (Aug 11, 2014)

Why would Naruto be above Triple-Rinnegan Juubimads when Mugen Tsukuyomi would have GG'd him if it weren't for Sasuke  The mere fact that Kishi felt it prudent to pit Naruto and Sasuke against him (even prior to obtaining the 2nd and 3rd Rinnegan) tells you that Juubimads post-tree absortion and above > Current Naruto.

Also, I wouldn't even bother comparing Kaguya to Mads at this point honestly. The amount of stupidity displayed by Kaguya during this fight is astounding.


----------



## ueharakk (Aug 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> He has been saved a 3-4 times against Kaguya. Furthermore, Kaguya was holding back for a large portion of the battle because of emotions.


naruto's been saved 3-4 times?  At most I remember it being 2, and if you want to claim naruto's shunshin was plot induced, then you'd have to claim naruto needing to be saved is also plot induced as he could have easily gotten out of both situations with his shown abilities.



Destiny Monarch said:


> The blitz of Kaguya was totally plot induced, the fact that she did not even heal from it (While Madara was able to grow back half his body soon after loosing it) is even more plot induced. Fact is, he couldn't even blitz Post-Shinju One-Eyed Madara despite blind siding him, and he couldn't deal with Limbo clones until Sasuke thouroughly explained to him the strength and weaknesses of Limbo and how it works as a whole.  Not to mention Madara did not even use half of the impressive arsenal that he displayed before due to PIS. Madara >>> Naruto.


Wait, let me get this straight, Madara not using his undisplayed arsenal against Naruto = PIS on Madara, but Naruto not using his arsenal against Madara =/= PIS on Naruto?  

How exactly is Naruto's blitz on Kaguya plot induced?  This wasn't one of those dynamic entry things where the guy who gets blitzed isn't looking at the blitzer or doesn't even know he/she is there, Kaguya was looking at talking to Naruto, yet before she knows it her arm is sliced off and naruto is in her face.  Plot induced stupidity is when someone displays the feats to deal with a situation, yet they don't use those abilities to deal with the situation due to plot.  Naruto's blitzed Kaguya and therefore him not using that speed against Kaguya or Madara is PIS on Naruto, not plot giving Naruto powers that he doesn't actually have.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

The Format said:


> Why would Naruto be above Triple-Rinnegan Juubimads when Mugen Tsukuyomi would have GG'd him if it weren't for Sasuke  The mere fact that Kishi felt it prudent to pit Naruto and Sasuke against him (even prior to obtaining the 2nd and 3rd Rinnegan) tells you that Juubimads post-tree absortion and above > Current Naruto.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't even bother comparing Kaguya to Mads at this point honestly. The amount of stupidity displayed by Kaguya during this fight is astounding.



The ironic thing is that Kaguya is in fact, *very* stupid. So its kinda IC for her to do stupid things. She has got the mind set of a rampaging Hulk. 



ueharakk said:


> naruto's been saved 3-4 times?  At most I remember it being 2, and if you want to claim naruto's shunshin was plot induced, then you'd have to claim naruto needing to be saved is also plot induced as he could have easily gotten out of both situations with his shown abilities.



From the top of my head:

1. Sasuke broke them out of the ice they where trapped in.
2. Obito Meatshield. 
3. Sasuke saving Naruto on the Hawk. 

Well that's all I can think off from the top of my head, I am positive their was at least one more, il check some other time. 

For number 1 and 2 there was no plot induced hinderances or stupidity involved, as there was nothing in his arsenal that could have do anything about it (Sasuke was actually hit with PIS in the second scenario since he had Susano'O). For number 3 he simply did not know he could fly, but as he is now he would have survived that without help. 




> Wait, let me get this straight, Madara not using his undisplayed arsenal against Naruto = PIS on Madara, but Naruto not using his arsenal against Madara =/= PIS on Naruto?



What did Naruto not use in his arsenal against Madara? 

Clones? Check. 
Goudama? Check. 
Rasengan variants? Check. 
Bijudama variants? Check. 

What else has he ever shown besides clones and different Rasengan variants? Not much as far as I recall. Meanwhile, Madara probably has the most versatility (Versatility defined as different types of Jutsu) out of any character in the manga. Yet the only thing he used was Limbo, CT and a couple of Sage attacks (He did not even use his Goudama, which he used in his previous fight, that just screams PIS). 



> How exactly is Naruto's blitz on Kaguya plot induced?  This wasn't one of those dynamic entry things where the guy who gets blitzed isn't looking at the blitzer or doesn't even know he/she is there, Kaguya was looking at talking to Naruto, yet before she knows it her arm is sliced off and naruto is in her face.  Plot induced stupidity is when someone displays the feats to deal with a situation, yet they don't use those abilities to deal with the situation due to plot.  Naruto's blitzed Kaguya and therefore him not using that speed against Kaguya or Madara is PIS on Naruto, not plot giving Naruto powers that he doesn't actually have.



Separate BZ from Kaguya and build up to the next chapter so that she can turn into a bigger target. What solidifies the fact that it was plot induced was the fact that Kaguya *did not heal * her arm, despite the fact that she should have regen even greater then that of Madara's, yet there was not even a hint of regen going on with her arm. Kaguya was not looking or talking to Naruto actually, she was not talking at all, and it should be inferred that she was looking at Sasuke, since he was the one she was battling. Either way, Kaguya has shown to blitz Naruto before, and someone who is *supposedly * weaker then her has reacted to Naruto before in a weakened state. Also, I would not call it Plot induced stupidly as much as *Plot induced hinderance*, since her speed was hindered for plot purposes.


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## Santoryu (Aug 11, 2014)

Aside from outlasting Kakashi, the other arguments people have brought up about Hashirama defeating Kakashi are tenuous-and even then, we have no accurate way of knowing just how powerful this version of Kakashi is. What we do know is that even prior to obtaining PS/EMS,  Kakashi was a powerful combatant being able to better Obito in combat and his Sharingan-abilities were potent enough to earn praise from an arrogant character like Madara.

If it truly is EMS he has obtained, he should be able to sustain his MS abilities for quite some time. I do think Kakashi is stronger than Hashirama, and I also believe it's going to be conclusive in the next few chapters or so. It makes perfect sense for Kakashi to be stronger than any previous Hokage from a narrative point of view. 

What I find puzzling is people insinuating that Hashirama is significantly above Madara in the power-scale, he's not, yes he's stronger, but they were still comparable.


----------



## ueharakk (Aug 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> From the top of my head:
> 
> 1. Sasuke broke them out of the ice they where trapped in.
> 2. Obito Meatshield.
> ...


Naruto could have easily got out of all of those situations if he wasn't hindered by PIS.
1) kokuo or Goku's power, chakra arms or pretty much any giant rasengan breaks him out.
2) chakra arms or kagebunshin blocks the bones
3) even without flight, KCM Naruto was able to grab lava, why would current naruto be affected by lava?





Destiny Monarch said:


> What did Naruto not use in his arsenal against Madara?
> tajuu kagebunshin, tons of giant rasenshurikens, flight, chakra arms, powers of the other bijuu.  He hasn't even used his most powerful weapon (his new bijuu mode) against Kaguya yet.
> 
> Clones? Check.
> ...


- tajuu kagebunshin
- tons of tailed beast rasenshurikens
- flight, chakra arms
- powers of the other bijuu
- his speed

  He hasn't even used his most powerful weapon (his new bijuu mode) against Kaguya yet.






Destiny Monarch said:


> Separate BZ from Kaguya and build up to the next chapter so that she can turn into a bigger target. What solidifies the fact that it was plot induced was the fact that Kaguya *did not heal * her arm, despite the fact that she should have regen even greater then that of Madara's, yet there was not even a hint of regen going on with her arm. Kaguya was not looking or talking to Naruto actually, she was not talking at all, and it should be inferred that she was looking at Sasuke, since he was the one she was battling. Either way, Kaguya has shown to blitz Naruto before, and someone who is *supposedly * weaker then her has reacted to Naruto before in a weakened state. Also, I would not call it Plot induced stupidly as much as *Plot induced hinderance*, since her speed was hindered for plot purposes.


I don't understand how the action having its place in the manga's storyline = the actual power is something that Naruto can't do, but rather something he magically gained for an instant and no longer has again.  By that logic, Madara using chibaku tensei is plot induced, madara using mugen tsukuyomi is plot induced, Gai using the 8th gates is plot induced simply because it has a place in the plot.  Naruto blitzed kaguya and therefore he has the ability to do so, saying he doesn't is as anticanon a statement as you can get and opens the door for anyone to reject any feat in the manga that they don't like.

Kaguya didn't heal her arm because unlike madara who had the luxury of sitting down while the smoke cleared and talking to a lifeless opponent, Kaguya was in the middle of fighting Sasuke and Naruto and wasn't allowed to heal in such a timeframe as she was quickly hit by naruto's rasengan barrage which turned her into the beast.  

When did Kaguya blitz Naruto with her actual body speed before?  Are you talking about her beating Naruto's clones?  Naruto failed to blitz a weaker opponent simply shows he was holding back on his speed which makes senses since it was the first time naruto even moved his legs in that new mode and we know he was holding back and is still getting used to his new powers.

So no, you don't get to null feats just because you don't like them.  Naruto traveled 30+ meters into the sky and ripped kaguya's arm off before she was able to react, whether you like it or not.  Therefore Naruto failing to do it earlier is either PIS on Naruto or Naruto simply not going all out or using all of his powers.


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## Dominus (Aug 11, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> What we do know is that even prior to obtaining PS/EMS,  Kakashi was a powerful combatant being able to better Obito in combat



Didn't Obito say he let Kakashi stab him so he could get rid of Madara's cursed seal and become the Jūbi's jinchūriki?


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## Mercurial (Aug 11, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> 1) Juubidara double rinnegan + sharinnegan + Juubi jin
> 2) Naruto
> 3) Sasuke
> 4) Juubito
> ...



And Kamui GG, Kamui intangibility, Kamui teleport with double warping speed?


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## Santoryu (Aug 11, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Didn't Obito say he let Kakashi stab him so he could get rid of Madara's cursed seal and become the Jūbi's jinchūriki?



While it's true Obito played the final confrontation, there's also the fact that Kakashi could have ended the battle right here. by Obito's own admission. I'm sure getting decapitated was not part of his master plan.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto could have easily got out of all of those situations if he wasn't hindered by PIS.
> 1) kokuo or Goku's power, chakra arms or pretty much any giant rasengan breaks him out.
> 2) chakra arms or kagebunshin blocks the bones
> 3) even without flight, KCM Naruto was able to grab lava, why would current naruto be affected by lava?



1) Yes perhaps Kairiki Musou would work. 
2) Naruto could barely move an inch. Chakra arms wouldn't do much for him. 
3) True. 




> - tajuu kagebunshin
> - tons of tailed beast rasenshurikens
> - flight, chakra arms
> - powers of the other bijuu
> - his speed



He used his speed. He used powers of Shukaku, Kurama and Goku. He used clones, 5 Clones are just as powerful as 100 since they would have more chakra in them then if the chakra was split into 1/100. Chakra arms would have been pointless. Flight would have not changed a thing either. He used 6 BFRS which are far more powerful then his 9 FRS variants. 



> He hasn't even used his most powerful weapon (his new bijuu mode) against Kaguya yet.



You don't know if he has a new Biju mode or not, that's just speculation. Its very unlikely though. 





> I don't understand how the action having its place in the manga's storyline = the actual power is something that Naruto can't do, but rather something he magically gained for an instant and no longer has again.  By that logic, Madara using chibaku tensei is plot induced, madara using mugen tsukuyomi is plot induced, Gai using the 8th gates is plot induced simply because it has a place in the plot.  Naruto blitzed kaguya and therefore he has the ability to do so, saying he doesn't is as anticanon a statement as you can get and opens the door for anyone to reject any feat in the manga that they don't like.



By this logic, Kakashi and a Obito at deaths door are a lot physically stronger then Naruto and Sasuke. If there is a feat that is out of place, it can definitely be refuted, the Obito + Kakashi is a perfect example of this. I don't see people going around saying Kakashi is physically stronger then Naruto. Naruto blitzing Kaguya is out of place because Kaguya has shown that she can blitz Naruto. And Naruto failed to blitz Madara (That was not even at full power) on two different occasions. 



> Kaguya didn't heal her arm because unlike madara who had the luxury of sitting down while the smoke cleared and talking to a lifeless opponent, Kaguya was in the middle of fighting Sasuke and Naruto and wasn't allowed to heal in such a timeframe as she was quickly hit by naruto's rasengan barrage which turned her into the beast.



She can heal Mid-Battle, I see absolutely no reason why she can't. Madara was still healing when Naruto attacked him. He almost instantly healed a huge gash at his waist. The only reason she was turned into a beast after getting hit by the 9 FRS was because of her arm wound (The beast chakra started too come out in place of her severed arm), which only proved that her arm *needed * to be cut for plot purposes. 



> When did Kaguya blitz Naruto with her actual body speed before?  Are you talking about her beating Naruto's clones?  Naruto failed to blitz a weaker opponent simply shows he was holding back on his speed which makes senses since it was the first time naruto even moved his legs in that new mode and we know he was holding back and is still getting used to his new powers.



Yes, she was blitzing the clones left and right. No, holding back on his speed is simply an excuse for people who want to believe that he is stronger then Madara. There is absolutely NO reason to hold back when the future of the world holds in the balance off the fight. And there is absolutely nothing that indicates he magically got faster. Like I told someone else. Either you acknowledge that Naruto blitzing Kaguya was out of place or Madara>>>>Kaguya in reaction feats. 



> So no, you don't get to null feats just because you don't like them.  Naruto traveled 30+ meters into the sky and ripped kaguya's arm off before she was able to react, whether you like it or not.  Therefore Naruto failing to do it earlier is either PIS on Naruto or Naruto simply not going all out or using all of his powers.



Alrighty then, I take it that Madara >>>> Kaguya in reaction feats, because Naruto failed to blitz Madara on two different occasions, wether you like it or not.


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## Veracity (Aug 11, 2014)

And to think that just under a year ago Hashirama was the strongest ninja to walk the ninja world. *Sigh*

Naruto~ Sasuke
Juubidara 
Juubito
Edo Prepped Oro( Assumption)
Kakashi~Gai
Hashirama 
Edo Minato
Tobirama 
Itachi 
Sannin~Hiruzen.


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## OG Appachai (Aug 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> And to think that just under a year ago Hashirama was the strongest ninja to walk the ninja world. *Sigh*.


meh i still think hes the strongest without the aid of bijuu bar Gai though only a few are above him. Power inflation is a friend


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> And to think that just under a year ago Hashirama was the strongest ninja to walk the ninja world. *Sigh*


Isn't it longer than that? Juubito came out last year, Naruto achieved Biju Sage Mode to at least equal Hashirama, etc.


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## ueharakk (Aug 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> 1) Yes perhaps Kairiki Musou would work.
> 2) Naruto could barely move an inch. Chakra arms wouldn't do much for him.
> 3) True.


Why wouldn't chakra arms do anything for Naruto? 





Destiny Monarch said:


> He used his speed. He used powers of Shukaku, Kurama and Goku. He used clones, 5 Clones are just as powerful as 100 since they would have more chakra in them then if the chakra was split into 1/100. Chakra arms would have been pointless. Flight would have not changed a thing either. He used 6 BFRS which are far more powerful then his 9 FRS variants.


- He didn't use his speed, proven when he blitzed kaguya
- how in the world would flight have been pointless?  And that's completely irrelevant anyway since I could easily list the jutsu madara neglected to use as pointless as well
- Since when would 5 clones be as powerful as 100 clones?  Having as much chakra as 100 clones in no way shape or form = being as powerful as 100 clones, else why would naruto even use the clone technique at all?  By that logic chapter 1 base naruto w/o tajuu kagebunshin murderstomps mizuki, chuunin exam base naruto stomps transformed gaara.
- Why in the world would chakra arms have been pointless when just 4 of kaguyas can bust sasuke's sharinnegan PS and Naruto's can casually rip off her arms?
- Naruto alone use 6 BFRS, him using that in addition to his clones using 9 beast FRS variants is far more powerful.  Not only that, but his clones that fought madara's limbos were using mere taijutsu.  compare that to naruto's 9 clones all using rasenshuriken variants and tell me that naruto was using everything in his arsenal.




Destiny Monarch said:


> You don't know if he has a new Biju mode or not, that's just speculation. Its very unlikely though.


So you actually believe that Naruto doesn't have a new bijuu mode?  So when NAruto does bust out his new bijuu mode, will you concede this entire argument?




Destiny Monarch said:


> By this logic, Kakashi and a Obito at deaths door are a lot physically stronger then Naruto and Sasuke. If there is a feat that is out of place, it can definitely be refuted, the Obito + Kakashi is a perfect example of this. I don't see people going around saying Kakashi is physically stronger then Naruto. Naruto blitzing Kaguya is out of place because Kaguya has shown that she can blitz Naruto. And Naruto failed to blitz Madara (That was not even at full power) on two different occasions.


Yet Kakashi and Obito at death's door doing that has no explanation for it.  Naruto's feat does: he simply never used his maximum speed shunshin against madara or kaguya.  And that fits perfectly well with Naruto's displayed feats from before as he hardly ever uses his KCM flash shunshin or his BM flash shunshin when he utilized those modes in addition to the fact that the first time he tried to hit madara, it was literally the first time he tried to move while in his new form.  Then there's the fact that no character constantly moves at their max shunshin speed so why would naruto be expected to do that either?  Finally, Naruto was bloodlusted from Obito's death while he never was bloodlusted against Madara or kaguya prior.




Destiny Monarch said:


> She can heal Mid-Battle, I see absolutely no reason why she can't. Madara was still healing when Naruto attacked him. He almost instantly healed a huge gash at his waist. The only reason she was turned into a beast after getting hit by the 9 FRS was because of her arm wound (The beast chakra started too come out in place of her severed arm), which only proved that her arm *needed * to be cut for plot purposes.


It doesn't matter if you think she can heal in mid-battle, the manga showed that naruto either attacked her before she could heal or she can't heal midbattle.  By the time Naruto attacked Madara, *his arm was fully healed.*  Show me madara instantly healing a huge gash in his waste.  

The rest of your post in no way shape or form shows that she could have healed the wound before Naruto landed the multiple rasenshurikens on her.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Yes, she was blitzing the clones left and right. No, holding back on his speed is simply an excuse for people who want to believe that he is stronger then Madara. There is absolutely NO reason to hold back when the future of the world holds in the balance off the fight. And there is absolutely nothing that indicates he magically got faster. Like I told someone else.* Either you acknowledge that Naruto blitzing Kaguya was out of place or Madara>>>>Kaguya in reaction feats.*


So blitzing clones that are trying to stall = blitzing the original now?  

Nope, saying Naruto magically gained the ability to blitz someone who could blitz him because of plot is an excuse to try and downplay a character to suite your own agenda and opens the door to disregard any feat in the manga by simply showing how it fits into the storyline.  The manga has constantly shown people don't move at their fastest shunshin speeds at all time, shown Naruto holds back against living opponents in order to not kill them, and has conclusively proven that Naruto did not go all out against Madara.  

The bolded are the radically unsupported conclusions that you are forced to assert in light of a feat that does not suite your own agenda.  The notion that Naruto wasn't using his maximum shunshin in order to combat Madara is far more plausible than a notion that forces you to break that fourth wall and would allow you to simply nullify any feat in the manga or one that is disproven by Sasuke's inability to hit Kaguya and kaguya's superior reaction feats to Madara.





Destiny Monarch said:


> Alrighty then, I take it that Madara >>>> Kaguya in reaction feats, because Naruto failed to blitz Madara on two different occasions, wether you like it or not.


Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  Madara can't be > Kaguya in reaction or speed feats as he can't even react to sasuke's S/T or even dodge sasuke's attacks while Kaguya can do both.  

unless you can prove that every character in the manga constantly moves at their fastest speeds,  that naruto was going all out against madara, and that Naruto himself wasn't hit by PIS throughout his entire fight with Madara, then your conclusions absolutely do not warrant a dismisal of a canon speed feat.  

If I show you a panel of Gaara moving at the same speed as KCM Naruto, does that mean Gaara is just as fast as KCM Naruto? Obviously not.  Characters don't always move at their maximum speeds.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Isn't it longer than that? Juubito came out last year, Naruto achieved Biju Sage Mode to at least equal Hashirama, etc.



Most people think Hashirama > BSM Naruto and Juubito came out in last June so I guess that's correct. A bit over a year is what should have been said,


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Most people think Hashirama > BSM Naruto and Juubito came out in last June so I guess that's correct. A bit over a year is what should have been said,


Some people, not most. BSM Naruto has the best of both worlds with superior speed, firepower, and ninjutsu that can rip Mokuton to shreds. They are at least on the same level.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Why wouldn't chakra arms do anything for Naruto?



Bone ashes go right through them. 




> - He didn't use his speed, proven when he blitzed kaguya



Madara reaction feats > Kaguya's reaction feats. 



> - how in the world would flight have been pointless?  And that's completely irrelevant anyway since I could easily list the jutsu madara neglected to use as pointless as well



PS? Not pointless? Mokuton? Not pointless. Deva Path? Not pointless. Preta Path? Not pointless. For a start. 

Do explain to me under what circumstance would flight have been useful against Madara? The only thing flight would have done is decrease the opportunity for teamwork with Sasuke ( Who would be on the ground) which would be even worse. 



> - Since when would 5 clones be as powerful as 100 clones?  Having as much chakra as 100 clones in no way shape or form = being as powerful as 100 clones, else why would naruto even use the clone technique at all?  By that logic chapter 1 base naruto w/o tajuu kagebunshin murderstomps mizuki, chuunin exam base naruto stomps transformed gaara.



Numbers can be very useful. But in terms of overall power they are equal. 



> - Why in the world would chakra arms have been pointless when just 4 of kaguyas can bust sasuke's sharinnegan PS and Naruto's can casually rip off her arms?



Kaguya's chakra arms =/= Naruto chakra arms. 



> - Naruto alone use 6 BFRS, him using that in addition to his clones using 9 beast FRS variants is far more powerful.  Not only that, but his clones that fought madara's limbos were using mere taijutsu.  compare that to naruto's 9 clones all using rasenshuriken variants and tell me that naruto was using everything in his arsenal.



Nope. 6 BFRS >>>>> 9 FRS Varients. Not only is the AoE insanely greater for the BFRS but the 9 FRS Varients did not even dent Kaguya (They only caused her too transform). 





> So you actually believe that Naruto doesn't have a new bijuu mode?  So when NAruto does bust out his new bijuu mode, will you concede this entire argument?



The entire argument of course not. But il concede this point. But he wont so.........




> Yet Kakashi and Obito at death's door doing that has no explanation for it.  Naruto's feat does: he simply never used his maximum speed shunshin against madara or kaguya.  And that fits perfectly well with Naruto's displayed feats from before as he hardly ever uses his KCM flash shunshin or his BM flash shunshin when he utilized those modes in addition to the fact that the first time he tried to hit madara, it was literally the first time he tried to move while in his new form.  Then there's the fact that no character constantly moves at their max shunshin speed so why would naruto be expected to do that either?  Finally, Naruto was bloodlusted from Obito's death while he never was bloodlusted against Madara or kaguya prior.



Thats exactly something a Narutard would say because that's the worst possible excuse one can think off. Why in gods name would someone NOT use their speed against threats to the entire world? Because they didnt know they had it? . MC's very rarely get hit PIS, but even when they do, its minor stuff. Not using speed that can save the future is just plain ridiculous. Now be honest with yourself. 




> It doesn't matter if you think she can heal in mid-battle, the manga showed that naruto either attacked her before she could heal or she can't heal midbattle.  By the time Naruto attacked Madara, *his arm was fully healed.*  Show me madara instantly healing a huge gash in his waste.



Its settled then, Kaguya cannot regenerate. That's all that needs to be said to end this argument. 



> So blitzing clones that are trying to stall = blitzing the original now?



Stalling is in no shape or form a excuse. She blitzed Naruto's clones, period. Naruto used clones to protect himself for a reason. 



> Nope, saying Naruto magically gained the ability to blitz someone who could blitz him because of plot is an excuse to try and downplay a character to suite your own agenda and opens the door to disregard any feat in the manga by simply showing how it fits into the storyline.  The manga has constantly shown people don't move at their fastest shunshin speeds at all time, shown Naruto holds back against living opponents in order to not kill them, and has conclusively proven that Naruto did not go all out against Madara.



Very well. Obito and Kakashi are physically superior too Naruto (As is Sasuke). Saying Obito and Kakashi magically gained the ability to run around where Naruto couldn't because of plot is an excuse to try and downplay the set of characters to suit your own agenda  that is how ridiculous you sound. 



> The bolded are the radically unsupported conclusions that you are forced to assert in light of a feat that does not suite your own agenda.  The notion that Naruto wasn't using his maximum shunshin in order to combat Madara is far more plausible than a notion that forces you to break that fourth wall and would allow you to simply nullify any feat in the manga or one that is disproven by Sasuke's inability to hit Kaguya and kaguya's superior reaction feats to Madara.



Like I said. Madara > Kaguya in reaction feats. Sasuke used a S/T followed by a Chidori thrust weighed down by gravity and Kaguya dodged. Sasuke used a full throttle Shunshin on a Madara who's primary target was his Rinnegan in the other dimension, and therefore, did not bother too dodge the attack. GG. 






> Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  Madara can't be > Kaguya in reaction or speed feats as he can't even react to sasuke's S/T or even dodge sasuke's attacks while Kaguya can do both.



Sasuke did not use his S/T Jutsu in Madara, he used a Shunshin. He also did not use his S/T Jutsu against Kaguya. He used S/T Jutsu too get to her and then followed up with a arm thrust. 



> unless you can prove that every character in the manga constantly moves at their fastest speeds,  that naruto was going all out against madara, and that Naruto himself wasn't hit by PIS throughout his entire fight with Madara, then your conclusions absolutely do not warrant a dismisal of a canon speed feat.



Very well. Naruto blitzed Kaguya, I concede. However Madara's reaction feats >>> Kaguya's reaction feats. Naruto cannot blitz Madara.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch: Kaguya could react to Sasuke's S/T jutsus. Madara couldn't. Kaguya is on an entirely other level than Madara in _everything_ but fighting prowess.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Destiny Monarch: Kaguya could react to Sasuke's S/T jutsus. Madara couldn't. Kaguya is on an entirely other level than Madara in _everything_ but fighting prowess.



Nope. She could react to his Chidori arm thrust. I can easily say that Madara reacted too FTG (Which is just as fast as Sasuke's S/T Jutsu) but in reality, what he reacted too was the attack *after * Minato used FTG (Minato's Rasengan thrust), not FTG itself. Same goes for Kaguya. Saying otherwise would be saying Naruto is faster then instant, which is physically impossible even for Superman who is as fast as the speed of light. 

Anyways, She reacted to his Chidori arm thrust under gravity. While Sasuke used a full on Shunshin blitz against someone who did not even intend too dodge. Shunshin blitz >>>> Arm thrust weighed down by gravity. The two are not even comparable.

Madara showed no problem whatsoever in dealing with their speed HERE . So once he got his second eye even Sasuke's Shunshin was child's play (And Naruto's). Let alone the speculation that could be made for his Third Eye. Of course I am excluding all the other times he reacted too Naruto in particular to save the Naruto fans the embarrassment.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Madara couldn't react to any of Sasuke's attacks. Kaguya _could_, she teleported the entire world right as he appeared. Sorry, she is superior to Madara in every way. 

And Naruto's been keeping pace, with just _footspeed_ to Sasuke's Space/Time jutsu ever since we saw it, and been reacting to even Kaguya's S/T ninjutsu.

Sorry, Naruto can blitz Kaguya. That means Naruto can blitz Madara whose inferior to Kaguya in every way but fighting prowess.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 11, 2014)

Itachi would bury Juubi Jin Madara and Kaguya in the same grave.


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## Veracity (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Some people, not most. BSM Naruto has the best of both worlds with superior speed, firepower, and ninjutsu that can rip Mokuton to shreds. They are at least on the same level.



I'm not going to go into extensive detail over Sage Hashirama vs BSM Naruto other then the obvious fact that Hashirama has an arsenal built around taming Bjui/Jin and has the clear edge in portrayal. I am also completely confident that more then 50% of the audience views Hashirama above BSM Naruto. Simple as that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not going to go into extensive detail over Sage Hashirama vs BSM Naruto other then the obvious fact that Hashirama has an arsenal built around taming Bjui/Jin and has the clear edge in portrayal. I am also completely confident that more then 50% of the audience views Hashirama above BSM Naruto. Simple as that.


He's never had to handle someone like Naruto. Saying 'He's Hashirama' isn't an argument either. His jutsus can be escaped by BSM Naruto or outright countered. More like 25% with a 10% hardline that believes even Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto is weaker than Sage Hashirama (like Shinobi no Kami).


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara couldn't react to any of Sasuke's attacks. Kaguya _could_, she teleported the entire world right as he appeared. Sorry, she is superior to Madara in every way.
> 
> And Naruto's been keeping pace, with just _footspeed_ to Sasuke's Space/Time jutsu ever since we saw it, and been reacting to even Kaguya's S/T ninjutsu.
> 
> Sorry, Naruto can blitz Kaguya. That means Naruto can blitz Madara whose inferior to Kaguya in every way but fighting prowess.



Concession accepted, you completely ignored everything I said and jumped too another point. 

Madara reacted to ALL of Sasuke's attacks, show me one he did not react too. Kaguya also reacted too all his attacks, granted the speed attacks Sasuke used on Kaguya where much slower because 90% of the fight was in the air (Therefore no movement speed can be used) and the one attack he used on the ground was a simple arm thrust. 

Sure, he can react too her S/T Jutsu. But its far from instant, as she has to make the barrier, stick her arm in it, make a barrier behind Naruto, thrust her arm out of that barrier. Sasuke's Shunshin speed was shown to be equal too Naruto's in the same panel I showed you. Keeping pace with a S/T Jutsu is impossible. 

Naruto can blitz Kaguya. Naruto can't blitz Madara, who has superior reflexes too her (Just because she is overall stronger, does not mean she has better reflexes then him). Kaguya could fodderize Naruto if she wanted too, so don't even try to tell me Naruto>Kaguya.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He's never had to handle someone like Naruto. Saying 'He's Hashirama' isn't an argument either. His jutsus can be escaped by BSM Naruto or outright countered. More like 25% with a 10% hardline that believes even Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto is weaker than Sage Hashirama (like Shinobi no Kami).



Ya, he's handled someone a lot stronger then BSM Naruto. Madara + Kurama. Which is essentially battling 100% Kurama coated in PS armour, which is >>> BSM Naruto.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not going to go into extensive detail over Sage Hashirama vs BSM Naruto other then the obvious fact that Hashirama has an arsenal built around taming Bjui/Jin and has the clear edge in portrayal. I am also completely confident that more then 50% of the audience views Hashirama above BSM Naruto. Simple as that.



It's probably worth pointing out that Hashirama put down the _actual_ Kyuubi like a rowdy housecat and BM Naruto only has half of its power; Senjutsu isn't gonna compensate for that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Concession accepted, you completely ignored everything I said.


No, you're asserting your own points.


> Madara reacted to ALL of Sasuke's attacks, show me one he did not react too. Kaguya also reacted too all his attacks, granted the speed attacks Sasuke used on Kaguya where much slower because 90% of the fight was in the air (Therefore no movement speed can be used) and the one attack he used on the ground was a simple arm thrust.


Madara couldn't react here.
Madara couldn't react here, he had to use a Kiriwami to escape AFTER.
Madara couldn't react here and praised Sasuke's speed.

Sorry, he didn't react to ANY of Sasuke's attacks. Kaguya's only shown she could react to his, hence why he hasn't landed any blow.


> Sure, he can react too her S/T Jutsu. But its far from instant, as she has to make the barrier, stick her arm in it, make a barrier behind Naruto, thrust her arm out of that barrier. Sasuke's Shunshin speed was shown to be equal too Naruto's in the same panel I showed you. Keeping pace with a S/T Jutsu is impossible.


Naruto was reacting to her portals. How are they 'far from instant', she can make them with a thought and just reach in. All that happens instantly. And Sasuke's shunshin has shown to be inferior to Naruto's speed.

Naruto keeping pace with Sasuke's S/T.


> Naruto can blitz Kaguya. Naruto can't blitz Madara, who has superior reflexes too her (Just because she is overall stronger, does not mean she has better reflexes then him). Kaguya could fodderize Naruto if she wanted too, so don't even try to tell me Naruto>Kaguya.


Kaguya's shown superior reflexes, has Byakugan to help (which Madara lacks) and she is stronger than Madara period. She's literally on another level.

Naruto's...kind of proven Kaguya _can't kill him on a whim or fodderize him._ And he's overwhelmed her several times over and ripped off her arm without her able to react. He blitzed the _god_ of the Narutoverse and gave her such a pounding she turned into this.



Destiny Monarch said:


> Ya, he's handled someone a lot stronger then BSM Naruto. Madara + Kurama. Which is essentially battling 100% Kurama coated in PS armour, which is >>> BSM Naruto.


Funny how Madara couldn't bring out Kurama's full strength and Jinchuriki + Biju are a stronger combination than that. Naruto could make Super Bijudama's whereas Madara couldn't. BSM Naruto shits on that combo just like Hashirama did.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, you're asserting your own points.



lol what! You completely ignored them.........



> Madara couldn't react here.



That's literally a instant attack. No one in the Narutoverse can react too that. 




> Madara couldn't react here, he had to use a Kiriwami to escape AFTER.



Yet another instant attack, he placed Madara right in between their attacks, and they where inches away from each other with their attacks already. Yet another attack that no one can react too. 




> Madara couldn't react here and praised Sasuke's speed.



He clearly reacted too it. He just did not get out of the way. 



> Sorry, he didn't react to ANY of Sasuke's attacks. Kaguya's only shown she could react to his, hence why he hasn't landed any blow.



Don't be ignorant. I have already shown you a attack he has reacted too. You have shown another one in your attempt to show how he didn't react to it 

Kaguya has never had too react too his S/T Jutsu from as close as Madara did (He litterally S/T his sword into Madara (or rather, the opposite), Kaguya would have done no better in his place, neither would Naruto). 



> Naruto was reacting to her portals. How are they 'far from instant', she can make them with a thought and just reach in. All that happens instantly. And Sasuke's shunshin has shown to be inferior to Naruto's speed.



Exactly as I said, they are far from instant. Refer back too my explanation o his they are far from instant for proof. 



> Naruto keeping pace with Sasuke's S/T.



 Sasuke and Naruto attack each other and Sasuke puts Kaguya in the middle. How on earth is that Naruto keeping pace with Sasuke. Try again. 



> Kaguya's shown superior reflexes, has Byakugan to help (which Madara lacks) and she is stronger than Madara period. She's literally on another level.



Rinnegan > Byakugan. Madara having Rinnegan instead of Byakugan is better for him. He has superior reflexes to her. I already showed you a feat of him countering both Sasuke's and Naruto's Shunshin, blitzing won't happen on Madara. 

Your a broken recorder, saying she is on another level does not make her on another level. Bring feats or its all talk no substance. 



> Naruto's...kind of proven Kaguya _can't kill him on a whim or fodderize him._ And he's overwhelmed her several times over and ripped off her arm without her able to react. He blitzed the _god_ of the Narutoverse and gave her such a pounding she turned into this.



BT Naruto into one of her ash bones. Counter to this? Didn't think so. 

Transport him into a sea of acid, while she leaves. Counter to this? Didn't think so.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Funny how Madara couldn't bring out Kurama's full strength and Jinchuriki + Biju are a stronger combination than that. Naruto could make Super Bijudama's whereas Madara couldn't. BSM Naruto shits on that combo just like Hashirama did.



100% Kurama > 50% Kurama. Naruto Being a Jinchuriki does not double that power. PS armour is a bonus. But I don't need to waste my time with this with you, others are already on the case.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> lol what! You completely ignored them.........


Since your points make a lot of assumptions.




> That's literally a instant attack. No one in the Narutoverse can react too that.


Kaguya did.





> Yet another instant attack, he placed Madara right in between their attacks, and they where inches away from each other with their attacks already. Yet another attack that no one can react too.


Madara couldn't react to Naruto attacking on the other side could he then?





> He clearly reacted too it. He just did not get out of the way.


If he could react to it, he could get out of the way. He couldn't do either.




> Don't be ignorant. I have already shown you a attack he has reacted too. You have shown another one in your attempt to show how he didn't react to it
> 
> Kaguya has never had too react too his S/T Jutsu from as close as Madara did (He litterally S/T his sword into Madara (or rather, the opposite), Kaguya would have done no better in his place, neither would Naruto).


Kaguya who has near 360 degree vision + the Sharingan prediction wouldn't have been able to? She was reacting to ALL of Sasuke's attacks and attempts, and reacted to Sasuke's ST attack + Chidori. Sorry, manga made it quite clear.




> Exactly as I said, they are far from instant. Refer back too my explanation o his they are far from instant for proof.


They're used by the practical god of the Narutoverse, they are practically instant.




> Sasuke and Naruto attack each other and Sasuke puts Kaguya in the middle. How on earth is that Naruto keeping pace with Sasuke. Try again.


They move at the same time. The Kaguya would be hit. Not only that, that first time they tried on Madara. Sasuke used his S/T and Naruto used his speed, Madara was unable to react.




> Rinnegan > Byakugan. Madara having Rinnegan instead of Byakugan is better for him. He has superior reflexes to her. I already showed you a feat of him countering both Sasuke's and Naruto's Shunshin, blitzing won't happen on Madara.


The Rinnegan lacks 360 degree vision. Kaguya has _all three Dojutsu_. 

Madara couldn't react to either! 'Madara has superior reflexes'- he does not.


> Your a broken recorder, saying she is on another level does not make her on another level. Bring feats or its all talk no substance.


THE MANGA FLAT OUT SAYS SHE IS! The manga made her to be the GOD of the Narutoverse. You're REALLY so desperate for Madara to be the strongest ever you can't flat out see how absurd you sound. 'Madara can react better than her!' posts feats of her reacting where he could not. 'Madara can do all sorts of shit!' despite never using thsoe against Naruto or Sasuke or anyone for that matter. 'Madara can make a Planet Sized Shinsusenju!'




> BT Naruto into one of her ash bones. Counter to this? Didn't think so.


Gudodama to shield him? Given that the ash bones aren't senjutsu?


> Transport him into a sea of acid, while she leaves. Counter to this? Didn't think so.


...Naruto's dealt with acid before. It didn't do anything to his cloaks in weaker forms.




> 100% Kurama > 50% Kurama. Naruto Being a Jinchuriki does not double that power. PS armour is a bonus. But I don't need to waste my time with this with you, others are already on the case.


100% Kurama can't focus all that power and lacks abilities BM and BSM Naruto do. Naruto can use Super Bijudama's, 100% Kurama could not while being used by Madara.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 11, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since your points make a lot of assumptions.



Oh please, that's the most blatant excuse possible. 




> Kaguya did.



Nope, ironically she didnt. And all you would have too do is look at the links you post yourself. 

HERE  she is put in the exact same position Madara was put HERE . The difference is that, against Kaguya, Sasuke and Naruto decided to use their bare hands to seal her, whereas against Madara they used actually Jutsu. Now imagine a rasengan in Naruto's hand in the panel he is about too touch Kaguya in, that rasengan would most certainly hit Kaguya (Just like how it hit Madara). So in fact, both Kaguya and Madara both fell prey to the Jutsu at the exact same time. You wanna the game breaker? Madara did not have his Third or even his Second Eye. With just One-Eye, he matched Kaguya's reaction feats. GG. 




> Madara couldn't react to Naruto attacking on the other side could he then?



What? He was placed in *between * them. I've already debunked this Reaction speed talk though. 



> If he could react to it, he could get out of the way. He couldn't do either.



You don't know the definition of reacting do you:

"Respond or behave in a particular way in response to something"

He responded too Sasuke, he  knew he was coming, therefore, he reacted too him. He did not dodge because he did not need too, his priority was in getting the other eye. 



> Kaguya who has near 360 degree vision + the Sharingan prediction wouldn't have been able to? She was reacting to ALL of Sasuke's attacks and attempts, and reacted to Sasuke's ST attack + Chidori. Sorry, manga made it quite clear.



Having near 360 vision does not grant her better reflexes. It just means she can react too things behind her the same way she would react to something in front of her. 

Sasuke had two attempts at her with speed. If he used a Jutsu when he used his S/T too place Kaguya in between them, he would have hit her. The second time Kaguya reacted too a Chidori thrust weighed down by gravity, that's one of the least impressive feats you can possibly have as a God-Tier. The manga making that clear does not make the feat itself impressive  




> They're used by the practical god of the Narutoverse, they are practically instant.



Just because she is a god does not mean her Jutsu become instant. We have solid feats of how it works, if you don't like how slow it is, complain too Kishi. 




> They move at the same time. The Kaguya would be hit. Not only that, that first time they tried on Madara. Sasuke used his S/T and Naruto used his speed, Madara was unable to react.



No, they where moving at the same time (Which is kind sad seeing as how Naruto can fly and Sasuke can't, but Kaguya was slanting towards Naruto. When was this "first time" you are speaking off. 



> The Rinnegan lacks 360 degree vision. Kaguya has _all three Dojutsu_.



Cool. Madara had more Rinnegan then her though. Having 360 vision could have helped against BZ's attack from behind, but that's about it. 



> Madara couldn't react to either! You're just fucking lying through your teeth now. 'Madara has superior reflexes'- he does not. Its a baldface lie.



Madara flat out reacts to both of them, I showed you a feat of this happening. No, I showed you muliple feats of it happening. Furthermore, in the paragraph I made, it basically explains everything, and proves that Madara's reflexes are better. GG. 



> THE MANGA FLAT OUT SAYS SHE IS! The manga made her to be the GOD of the Narutoverse. You're REALLY so desperate for Madara to be the strongest ever you can't flat out see how absurd you sound. 'Madara can react better than her!' posts feats of her reacting where he could not. 'Madara can do all sorts of shit!' despite never using thsoe against Naruto or Sasuke or anyone for that matter. 'Madara can make a Planet Sized Shinsusenju!'



What kind of god looses to two teenage kids? Don't give me this shit. This is a blatant strawman, I NEVER said Madara was stronger then Kaguya, and yet here you are, throwing a tantrum about me supposedly saying Madara is the strongest. I have posted numerous feats on numerous threads, not just me, but others as well, on how Madara has better reaction feats then Kaguya, you Narutards CHOOSE to ignore them. 

No one ever said the last one either. 




> Gudodama to shield him? Given that the ash bones aren't senjutsu?



OH? THE HYPOCRASY  Here you are, saying Naruto can use Goudama to shield himself despite never showing anything other then Goudama staffs. But yet you have a problem with people saying that Madara can use feats he has used before? The Naruto fanboyism shines in this post. 

He has not shown that level of mastery, Gudama ain't saving shit, 



> ...Naruto's dealt with acid before. It didn't do anything to his cloals in weaker forms.



If he is in a sea of acid, he can't deal with shit. 



> 100% Kurama can't focus all that power and lacks abilities BM and BSM Naruto do. Naruto can use Super Bijudama's, 100% Kurama could not while being used by Madara.



Which is why there is Madara too focus that power for him. Also, it seems you are confusing Kurama with the Jubi, Kurama actually has a brain, he can focus his power just fine, Jubi is a brainless living organism, of course it wouldn't be able to control its power. 

50% Kurama was able to do a Super Bijudama before befriending Naruto. 100% Kurama can as well.


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## Kyu (Aug 12, 2014)

> And to think that just under a year ago Hashirama was the strongest ninja to walk the ninja world. *Sigh*



...People seriously expected him to not be surpassed at some point? 



> Naruto achieved Biju Sage Mode to at least equal Hashirama, etc.



BSM Naruto was on that level, however he was by no means equal to SM Hashirama. There isn't an astronomical gap between the two, but Hashi was stronger.


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## Veracity (Aug 12, 2014)

@Kyu 

It's not that I didn't expect Hashirama to be surpassed, but literally 60 chapters later you have him as fodder. Current Naruto could solo 10 Sage Hashirama's with 3 TBB FRS. That's a ridiculous power gap between merely 60 chapters.


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## ueharakk (Aug 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Bone ashes go right through them.


is this based on them not going right through kakashi and obito?





Destiny Monarch said:


> Madara reaction feats > Kaguya's reaction feats.


Kaguya: reacts to Sasuke's teleportation, way faster than Sasuke's movement speed.
Madara: can't even mentally react to Sasuke's teleportation, gets blitzed by Sasuke.
Hell no, Kaguya's reaction feats >>>> Madara's reaction feats.





Destiny Monarch said:


> PS? Not pointless? Mokuton? Not pointless. Deva Path? Not pointless. Preta Path? Not pointless. For a start.


PS: fodderized by a couple of chakra arm punches
Mokuton: fodderized by YRS
Deva path: does zero damage to someone who can take kaguya's chakra punches without damage
Preta path: didn't help kaguya against Naruto, why would it help madara?

And then that's all assuming Madara can even use those techniques while using chibaku tensei or his limbo.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Do explain to me under what circumstance would flight have been useful against Madara? The only thing flight would have done is decrease the opportunity for teamwork with Sasuke ( Who would be on the ground) which would be even worse.


If Naruto could fly he or his clone stop madara from ever geting into the sky and using MT.  If Naruto could fly, he doesn't need to launch attacks from ground level in linear patters at madara.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Numbers can be very useful. But in terms of overall power they are equal.


So you are literally saying that chapter 1 Naruto would have fodderized mizuki without tajuu kagebunshin, and chuunin exam naruto would have defeated transformed gaara without tajuu kagebunshin.   Concession accepted, don't ignore my arguments.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Kaguya's chakra arms =/= Naruto chakra arms.


Right, considering Naruto was able to match her chakra arms but eventually got overwhelmed, it'll probably take 5 chakra arms from naruto, not four.  You've also conceded this point as you've failed to address Naruto ripping her arm off with a chakra arm.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Nope. 6 BFRS >>>>> 9 FRS Varients. Not only is the AoE insanely greater for the BFRS but the 9 FRS Varients did not even dent Kaguya (They only caused her too transform).


1 of those 9 FRS variants was a BFRS.  I don't know where you got BFRS had a greater AoE than the 9 FRS, and finally, Naruto throws the 9 IN ADDITION to the 6 BDFRS.






Destiny Monarch said:


> The entire argument of course not. But il concede this point. But he wont so.........


Why not the entire argument?  If Naruto has a bijuu avatar, then it conclusively proves that he's been massively holding back this entire time.





Destiny Monarch said:


> Thats exactly something a Narutard would say because that's the worst possible excuse one can think off. *Why in gods name would someone NOT use their speed against threats to the entire world? *Because they didnt know they had it? . MC's very rarely get hit PIS, but even when they do, its minor stuff. Not using speed that can save the future is just plain ridiculous. Now be honest with yourself.


@the bolded PIS is why someone would not use their speed against threats to the entire world.  And my goodness Naruto gets hit with MASSIVE PIS, he's been hit with that throughout the entire war arc why do you think he's only been allowed to use his super speed when the plot absolutely called for it?  Why do you think he only attacks Obito with one clone and chakra arms instead of tajuu kagebunshin and his flash shunshin?  Why do you think he wrestles mokuryu instead of fodderizing it with a rasengan variant?  Why do you think Kurama only decided to tell Naruto about bijuu sage mode 80 chapters after Naruto could have used it?  Why do you think Naruto and the bijuu use fodder attacks on RT madara instead of just ending him with a nuke?  Why do you think BSM Naruto doesn't just fodderize Juubito by having Tobirama warp one of Naruto's super senjutsu bijuudamas right into Juubito's back?  

I can give you a mountain of instances where we know Naruto wasn't using anywhere near his full speed or used easy end-game tactics despite the situation calling for it.  Calling me a Narutard because I bring up PIS affecting the protagonist when Naruto goes from minato-level speed to slower than cloaked Kiba shows either how misinformed you are about this manga or how massive your double standards in evaluating these characters are.





Destiny Monarch said:


> Its settled then, Kaguya cannot regenerate. That's all that needs to be said to end this argument.


Since when did I ever even imply that?  Don't waste my time attacking strawmen, Kaguya can regenerate she just either couldn't do it before naruto nailed her with he 9 RS or can't properly regenerate while simultaneously attacking and defending.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Stalling is in no shape or form a excuse. She blitzed Naruto's clones, period. Naruto used clones to protect himself for a reason.


Why in the world is stalling a valid reason for Kaguya being able to tag Naruto's clones?  Naruto used clones to protect himself because he'd rather kaguya waste her attacks on meatshields than give her the possibility of ending him with an attack he can't tank.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Very well. Obito and Kakashi are physically superior too Naruto (As is Sasuke). Saying Obito and Kakashi magically gained the ability to run around where Naruto couldn't because of plot is an excuse to try and downplay the set of characters to suit your own agenda  that is how ridiculous you sound.


Concession accepted as you've literally straight up ignored my argument for why Obito and Kakashi's case isn't the same as Naruto's.  Since you can't generate a coherent response to my arguments without ignoring them you've tacitly conceded those points.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Like I said. Madara > Kaguya in reaction feats. Sasuke used a S/T followed by a Chidori thrust weighed down by gravity and Kaguya dodged. Sasuke used a full throttle Shunshin on a Madara who's primary target was his Rinnegan in the other dimension, and therefore, did not bother too dodge the attack. GG.


Concession accepted once again.  Sasuke's chidori thrust was not weighed down by gravity when Kaguya switched dimensions, yet kaguya was able to travel 10+ meters into the sky before he's able to complete it.  That conclusively proves that kaguya is far faster than Sasuke.  Madara couldn't even mentally react to Sasuke's S/T, Kaguya not only mentally reacted but she could also deal with sasuke's attacks after he comes out of warp.  

The manga conclusively shows that Kaguya >>> Madara in reaction and speed.  







Destiny Monarch said:


> Sasuke did not use his S/T Jutsu in Madara, he used a Shunshin. He also did not use his S/T Jutsu against Kaguya. He used S/T Jutsu too get to her and then followed up with a arm thrust.


Sasuke did use S/T jutsu against Madara which forced madara to sacrifice his limbo, yet madara was completely unable to even perceive the technique until sasuke and naruto had landed their attacks on him.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Very well. Naruto blitzed Kaguya, I concede. However Madara's reaction feats >>> Kaguya's reaction feats. Naruto cannot blitz Madara.


Naruto blitzed Kaguya.
Kaguya reacted to Sasuke's S/T and is far faster than Sasuke.
Sasuke chased down Madara and Madara couldn't even mentally react to Sasuke's S/T.
Kaguya >>> Madara, bloodlusted Naruto blitzes both of them.

Plus, even if all things were equal and we had two instances, one which suggests Madara has greater reactions than Kaguya and another which suggests Kaguya has greater reactions than Madara, obviously Kaguya should be given the benefit of the doubt since she's the one who's clearly portrayed as the more powerful character.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 12, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> is this based on them not going right through kakashi and obito?



They eradicate the thing they pierce. If they don't go through the chakra arms, they will at the very least, eradicate it, 



> Kaguya: reacts to Sasuke's teleportation, way faster than Sasuke's movement speed.
> Madara: can't even mentally react to Sasuke's teleportation, gets blitzed by Sasuke.
> Hell no, Kaguya's reaction feats >>>> Madara's reaction feats.



Kaguya did not react to his S/T Jutsu, she reacted to his arm thrust. Which is way slower then his Shunshin. Kaguya got caught off guard by the same S/T Jutsu that caught Madara off guard. 

Madara 's Reaction Feats >>>>> Kaguya's Reaction feats




> PS: fodderized by a couple of chakra arm punches
> Mokuton: fodderized by YRS
> Deva path: does zero damage to someone who can take kaguya's chakra punches without damage
> Preta path: didn't help kaguya against Naruto, why would it help madara?



Naruto's chakra arms won't be doing anything to PS. 
YRS can cut one Tree. 
Kaguya has already used Deva Path and destroyed numerous clones of Naruto's with it. It can also be used to repel Naruto's Jutsu, Jutsu like the 9 FRS (Which Kaguya didn't do BTW, due to PIS)
Well his 6 BFRS are not Rikudo Seal enhanced, something like that can be absorbed. 





> And then that's all assuming Madara can even use those techniques while using chibaku tensei or his limbo.



Why can't he? 





> If Naruto could fly he or his clone stop madara from ever geting into the sky and using MT.  If Naruto could fly, he doesn't need to launch attacks from ground level in linear patters at madara.



Several CT's would put him right back down, or stop him in his tracks. 





> So you are literally saying that chapter 1 Naruto would have fodderized mizuki without tajuu kagebunshin, and chuunin exam naruto would have defeated transformed gaara without tajuu kagebunshin.   Concession accepted, don't ignore my arguments.



No. I literally just said numbers can be helpful. 




> Right, considering Naruto was able to match her chakra arms but eventually got overwhelmed, it'll probably take 5 chakra arms from naruto, not four.  You've also conceded this point as you've failed to address Naruto ripping her arm off with a chakra arm.



Stalemating her chakra arms for a couple of seconds does not automatically put his chakra arms near her level. Furthermore, Madara's PS is more durable then Sasuke's (It actually has durability feats). And? So what if he ripped her arm off with a chakra arm? 





> 1 of those 9 FRS variants was a BFRS.  I don't know where you got BFRS had a greater AoE than the 9 FRS, and finally, Naruto throws the 9 IN ADDITION to the 6 BDFRS.



On a *much* smaller scale. He's not throwing 9 FRS in addition to 6 BDFRS. 

6 BRRS.
9 FRS.

The AoE of the FRS is not even as big as one of Madara's meteors. Granted they are Rikudo Seal Enhanced unlike the 6 BDFRS, so they can't be absorbed. 





> Why not the entire argument?  If Naruto has a bijuu avatar, then it conclusively proves that he's been massively holding back this entire time.


 
lol this is speculation on top of speculation. You speculate that he has a Biju avatar, and then speculate that the Biju Avatar massively increases his strength. Not good. 




> @the bolded PIS is why someone would not use their speed against threats to the entire world.  And my goodness Naruto gets hit with MASSIVE PIS, he's been hit with that throughout the entire war arc why do you think he's only been allowed to use his super speed when the plot absolutely called for it?  Why do you think he only attacks Obito with one clone and chakra arms instead of tajuu kagebunshin and his flash shunshin?  Why do you think he wrestles mokuryu instead of fodderizing it with a rasengan variant?  Why do you think Kurama only decided to tell Naruto about bijuu sage mode 80 chapters after Naruto could have used it?  Why do you think Naruto and the bijuu use fodder attacks on RT madara instead of just ending him with a nuke?  Why do you think BSM Naruto doesn't just fodderize Juubito by having Tobirama warp one of Naruto's super senjutsu bijuudamas right into Juubito's back?



So "Why would someone NOT use their speed against threats to the entire world" is the reason why someone would not use speed against threats to the entire world? Seems legit. Actually its the villains that Naruto faces that get hit with the most PIS, almost every single one of them. What makes you say he could use Taiju Kagebunshin back then? Mokuryu was too fast. BM was only needed 80 Chapters after he could've used it. And what are are you talking about, Naruto went Biju Mode as soon as Kurama befriended him. Madara could absorb chakra, I doubt Bijudama where any different. Oh please, do you want me to tell you every single time Juubito got hit with PIS? 



> I can give you a mountain of instances where we know Naruto wasn't using anywhere near his full speed or used easy end-game tactics despite the situation calling for it.  Calling me a Narutard because I bring up PIS affecting the protagonist when Naruto goes from minato-level speed to slower than cloaked Kiba shows either how misinformed you are about this manga or how massive your double standards in evaluating these characters are.



Oh? So Kakashi and Obito are physically stronger then Naruto? Or are you going too be reveal why Naruto is the only one that gets a pass for a ridiculous feat? Kakakshi and Obito where just heavily restricted from using their true strength, in reality they are physically stronger then even RSM Naruto,a lot stronger. 






> Since when did I ever even imply that?.



No one used Strawman on you. I am stating a fact. Or do you want too show me a feat of her regenerating? Or even healing in general would by nice. 



> Why in the world is stalling a valid reason for Kaguya being able to tag Naruto's clones?  Naruto used clones to protect himself because he'd rather kaguya waste her attacks on meatshields than give her the possibility of ending him with an attack he can't tank.



Yes, because he can't deal with her attacks by himself. 




> Concession accepted .



I ignored nothing. You have no good reason to why they are invalid feats. 




> Concession accepted once again.



People don't adjust too gravity well unless they are prepared for it. And dodging an arm thrust is still not a good feat. Sasuke's Shunshin>>>>>>Sasuke's arm thrust. 

If Naruto and Sasuke where using a Rasengan and Chidori (And Kaguya was straight as opposed too slanted) HERE, it would have been a replication of the feat they used on One-Eyed Madara. So One-Eyed Madara = Kaguya in reflexes. 2 and then even 3 eyed Madara >>>> Kaguya in reflexes. 



> The manga conclusively shows that Kaguya >>> Madara in reaction and speed.



I've already proven otherwise. 



> Sasuke did use S/T jutsu against Madara which forced madara to sacrifice his limbo, yet madara was completely unable to even perceive the technique until sasuke and naruto had landed their attacks on him.



Kaguya would have gotten hit just like he did. No one would have been able to do anything until they where already hit in Madara's situation. 




> Naruto blitzed Kaguya.
> Kaguya reacted to Sasuke's S/T and is far faster than Sasuke.
> Sasuke chased down Madara and Madara couldn't even mentally react to Sasuke's S/T.
> Kaguya >>> Madara, bloodlusted Naruto blitzes both of them.



Nope, *she reacted once he arrived with his S/T and thrusted his arm under weighed down gravity. *She then moved out of the way once she switched the locations. Sasuke cut down a Madara who's priorities where in getting his other eye back, he didn't care if he got cut in half. 

Madara >>> Kaguya in reaction feats. Bloodlusted Naruto only blitzes Kaguya. Even a saving Nakama mode Naruto (When he saved Sakura) has his Shunshin stopped by Limbo. 



> Plus, even if all things were equal and we had two instances, one which suggests Madara has greater reactions than Kaguya and another which suggests Kaguya has greater reactions than Madara, obviously Kaguya should be given the benefit of the doubt since she's the one who's clearly portrayed as the more powerful character.



That's not the case. As Kaguya has equal reactions to One-Eyed Madara. He got two more eyes, the Second one in particular was said too *massively * increase his fighting capabilities, the Third One remains featless, but its safe to assume that it would have also also increased his fighting capabilities, to what extent though I could only speculate.


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## ueharakk (Aug 15, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> They eradicate the thing they pierce. If they don't go through the chakra arms, they will at the very least, eradicate it,


which means that the chakra arm will be eradicated, while naruto is not, therefore naruto remains alive...




Destiny Monarch said:


> Kaguya did not react to his S/T Jutsu, she reacted to his arm thrust. Which is way slower then his Shunshin. Kaguya got caught off guard by the same S/T Jutsu that caught Madara off guard.
> 
> *Madara 's Reaction Feats >>>>> Kaguya's Reaction feats*


She did react to his S/T which is why she notices Sasuke before he's anywhere near her.   Madara on the otherhand didn't even notice Sasuke's Space/Time AND his arm thrust as *he can't even react to Sasuke's S/T + arm thrust.*

Not only that, but based on what is Sasuke's shunshin speed greater than his arm thrusting speed?  Based on what is Sasuke's shunshin speed so much greater than his arm thrusting speed that he can move the same distance naruto did before he could complete an arm thrust?  

Kaguya's reaction feats absolutely crap on Madara's reaction feats, there's no plausible way that you can assert the bolded without making some ridiculous claim or ignoring Madara's failure to react to Sasuke's S/T + attack.






Destiny Monarch said:


> Naruto's chakra arms won't be doing anything to PS.
> YRS can cut one Tree.
> Kaguya has already used Deva Path and destroyed numerous clones of Naruto's with it. It can also be used to repel Naruto's Jutsu, Jutsu like the 9 FRS (Which Kaguya didn't do BTW, due to PIS)
> Well his 6 BFRS are not Rikudo Seal enhanced, something like that can be absorbed.


Based on what will Naruto's chakra arms not be doing anything to PS?
YRS can cut down all the trees within its AoE which is far larger than the battlefield they were fighting in and therefore any other mokuton madara would have made would have been irrelevant.  Not only that, but Naruto can fire more than one YRS or have his clones fire rasenshurikens while the real attacks the madara who's busy using his fruitless mokuton.
Kaguya >>>>>>>>> Madara, and she didn't do anything to the real naruto with deva path.  If Kaguya had used deva path to blow away the RS, Naruto would have just done another volley, there's no PIS on here part.

Madara couldn't even absorb Naruto's youton rasenshuriken, how is he going to absorb attacks that are far more powerful than that?




Destiny Monarch said:


> Why can't he?


Because just because a character can use different jutsus doesn't mean they can use said jutsus all at the same time...




Destiny Monarch said:


> Several CT's would put him right back down, or stop him in his tracks.


The CT get fodderized by chakra punches, or Naruto just dodges them, or he cuts them in half with YRS, or he blows them up with Bijuudama rasenshurikens.  Plus, madara only used chibaku tensei after flying all the way up there which he never does if naruto has flight which naruto stops by flying.




Destiny Monarch said:


> No. I literally just said numbers can be helpful.


So then you'd be conceding this argument as you admitting 'numbers can be helpful' trashes your original assertion that because Madara's limbo could beat 4 naruto clones, naruto making 100 clones would make no difference.




Destiny Monarch said:


> *Stalemating her chakra arms for a couple of seconds does not automatically put his chakra arms near her level.* Furthermore, Madara's PS is more durable then Sasuke's (It actually has durability feats). And? So what if he ripped her arm off with a chakra arm?


What in the world do you base the bolded on?  If Naruto's chakra arms were not on Kaguya's levels he would have never been able to stalemate ANY of her punches, her punches would have plowed right through naruto's own and hit naruto on her first try.  Rather than that we see *naruto counter her own chakra punch with his own,* and then match her own barrage with his own until being eventually overwhelmed.  If you don't believe Naruto's chakra punches are on Kaguya's level, the what level DO you believe naruto's punches are on and why?  

Madara's susanoo simply 'having durability feats' means jack squat if you can't compare those feats to the durability feats of Sasuke's susanoo.  Sasuke's Susanoo's offensive power makes Madara's PS look like a sad joke, Sasuke's Susanoo >>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara's susanoo. 

Obviously if Naruto ripped Kaguya's arm off with a chakra arm, then he'd do the same thing to the inferior Madara if he landed the same attack on Madara or his limbo clone which we've seen can be damaged by Naruto and Sasuke's rikudousenjutsu attacks.






Destiny Monarch said:


> On a *much* smaller scale. He's not throwing 9 FRS in addition to 6 BDFRS.
> 
> 6 BRRS.
> 9 FRS.
> ...


Based on what do you assert that they are smaller than the 6 BDFRS?  You completely ignored the fact that one of the attacks naruto threw was a BDFRS.  Based on what do you assert that Naruto can't throw the 6 BDFRS whlie his clones throw 9 FRS?






Destiny Monarch said:


> lol this is speculation on top of speculation. You speculate that he has a Biju avatar, and then speculate that the Biju Avatar massively increases his strength. Not good.


Do you even know what 'speculation' means?  You saying that he DOESN'T have a bijuu avatar is speculating that he doesn't, you saying that a bijuu avatar doesn't massively increase his strength is speculating that it doesn't as well.  

Don't waste my time.  WE are ASSERTING things that neither of us can prove with 100% certainty, however we still have a burden of proof to back up our assertions.  Do you actually believe the evidence for Naruto NOT having a bijuu avatar outweighs the evidence for Naruto HAVING a bijuu avatar?  If so, why?





Destiny Monarch said:


> *So "Why would someone NOT use their speed against threats to the entire world" is the reason why someone would not use speed against threats to the entire world?* Seems legit. Actually its the villains that Naruto faces that get hit with the most PIS, almost every single one of them. What makes you say he could use Taiju Kagebunshin back then? Mokuryu was too fast. BM was only needed 80 Chapters after he could've used it. And what are are you talking about, Naruto went Biju Mode as soon as Kurama befriended him. Madara could absorb chakra, I doubt Bijudama where any different. Oh please, do you want me to tell you every single time Juubito got hit with PIS?


Don't waste my time.  The bolded is a flat out attempt at attacking a strawman and therefore a concession of the actual argument. 

Naruto could have used tajuu kagebunshin back then as a single base clone was able to use tajuu kagebunshin while the original and 12 other KCM clones were fighting people.

 Based on what was mokuryu too fast?  Was it based on the fact that Naruto got the first hit on the tree?  Is it based on the fact that it couldn't blitz naruto?  That doesn't even mean anything as we know naruto wrestled and even bit the tree which means he was able to tag it with his arms and mouth, all he had to do was simply use A ninjutsu on it even while he was wrestling it.  

You've straight up conceded this argument on the grounds of BSM as "it was only needed 80 chapters after he could have used it" in no way shape or form addresses the argument that Naruto could have used a far more powerful for 80 chapters earlier, and therefore was held back by PIS.  

What in the world implies that no-eyed Madara could have absorbed a bijuu dama

Juubito or even any bad guys getting hit with PIS is completely and utterly irrelevant to the point of my argument which is that NARUTO gets hit with PIS.


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## ueharakk (Aug 15, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Oh? So Kakashi and Obito are physically stronger then Naruto? Or are you going too be reveal why Naruto is the only one that gets a pass for a ridiculous feat? Kakakshi and Obito where just heavily restricted from using their true strength, in reality they are physically stronger then even RSM Naruto,a lot stronger.


Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  





Destiny Monarch said:


> No one used Strawman on you. I am stating a fact. Or do you want too show me a feat of her regenerating? Or even healing in general would by nice.


You absolutely are not just stating facts.  You stated that because she hasn't regenerated on panel, she doesn't have regeneration.  The first part of that statement is a fact, the second part is a conclusion that absolutely does not follow from the first statement and is in fact heavily against the manga as Madara who's far inferior to Kaguya has regenerated and therefore Kaguya has that ability.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Yes, because he can't deal with her attacks by himself.


Sure he can, he's just not perfect and her attacks require 100% perfection of dodging since they kill you if you get hit no matter what healing powers you have.  



Destiny Monarch said:


> I ignored nothing. You have no good reason to why they are invalid feats.


Wait are you literally asserting that there are no good reasons why Kakashi and Obito moving in the gravity dimension while Kaguya, Sasuke and Naruto can't are invalid feats?  



Destiny Monarch said:


> People don't adjust too gravity well unless they are prepared for it. And dodging an arm thrust is still not a good feat.  Sasuke's Shunshin>>>>>>Sasuke's arm thrust.


Sasuke's ability to adjust to gravity has absolutely nothing to do with the comparison.  He's trying to thrust his arm forward as fast as he can and in the process of doing so.  If gravity suddenly changes he's still thrusting his arm forward as fast as he can while under the effects of the new gravity.  Not only that, but even gravity completely aside Sasuke only mentally reacted to Kaguya moving after she was 10+ meters in the air, and therefore she's far faster than Sasuke.

Based on what is Sasuke's shunshin >>>>>>> Sasuke's arm thrust?   



Destiny Monarch said:


> If Naruto and Sasuke where using a Rasengan and Chidori (And Kaguya was straight as opposed too slanted) HERE, it would have been a replication of the feat they used on One-Eyed Madara. So One-Eyed Madara = Kaguya in reflexes. 2 and then even 3 eyed Madara >>>> Kaguya in reflexes.


That's hilariously disingenuous.  First off Madara was just standing there and still couldn't do anything before Naruto and Sasuke hit him with that attack.  Naruto had to first distract Kaguya with his harem jutsu, then punch her in the fact in order to get her into the same situation that you are trying to compare to one-eyed rinnegan madara. 

Also if you want to play the whole A>B>C logic, then Kaguya is automatically >>> 3 eyed Madara in everything, and therefore Madara gets blitzed.




Destiny Monarch said:


> I've already proven otherwise.


Except you haven't.  You've shown Kaguya needing to be distracted and punched in the face in order for Naruto and Sasuke to fail to hit her with the same attack that they've succeeded on hitting Madara with.






Destiny Monarch said:


> Nope, *she reacted once he arrived with his S/T and thrusted his arm under weighed down gravity. *She then moved out of the way once she switched the locations. Sasuke cut down a Madara who's priorities where in getting his other eye back, he didn't care if he got cut in half.
> 
> Madara >>> Kaguya in reaction feats. Bloodlusted Naruto only blitzes Kaguya. Even a saving Nakama mode Naruto (When he saved Sakura) has his Shunshin stopped by Limbo.


Kaguya reacted to Sasuke before he was even close to her.  Madara obviously cared about dodging Sasuke's attack else he would not have bothered to run away from him, would not have commented on Sasuke's speed, and Sasuke could have prevented Madara from even warping if he destroyed Kakashi's eye while attacking Madara.

Naruto didn't use his shunshin against MAdara's limbo, proven by his movements being perceived by everyone while he bltizes kaguya.






Destiny Monarch said:


> That's not the case. As Kaguya has equal reactions to One-Eyed Madara. He got two more eyes, the Second one in particular was said too *massively * increase his fighting capabilities, the Third One remains featless, but its safe to assume that it would have also also increased his fighting capabilities, to what extent though I could only speculate.


If we're using A>B>C logic, Kaguya is automatically above the most powerful form of Madara in everything as she's using his body on top of having the sharinegan and has incomparably greater chakra than he does.  Therefore until explicitly stated or shown, she has greater reactions than him. AND ESPECIALLY unless explicitly stated or shown, she gets given the benefit of the doubt over him.


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