# Kamui vs Susanoo Final Debate.



## IchLiebe (Oct 13, 2013)

So it seems as if alot of people think that Kakashi would not be able to warp a person through Susanoo and this is a logical fallacy given the mechanics and dynamics of both techniques.


Given what we know;

Susanoo is see through and doesn't block sight.

Kamui alters space and is statically placed wherever the user sees.


Then Kamui should bypass Susanoo's armor and hit the Susanoo user.

If Susanoo was solid and you couldn't see the user then undoubtedly he wouldn't be able to warp him. 


What are you ideas on why it would work or why it wouldn't work? And please give logical responses; not Totsuka solos, or any of that bullshit.

This is between someone using Kakashi's kamui ability against any Susanoo variant(bar possibly PS due to size) the user doesn't matter it can be Itachi, Sasuke, Madara, Ramen guy, Tenten, Tonton.


Edit: Can someone add a poll I forgot to.

3 options.

1. Kamui bypasses Susanoo
2. Susanoo is hit by Kamui, thus being blocked
3. Unsure about the outcome.


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

Susano'o will not stop an immaterial, dimensional void if it does nothing to stop lightened materials like Gaara's sand from getting through its defense.


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## crisler (Oct 13, 2013)

A similar question could be asked with Amaterasu which appears on whoever the casters' eyesight is focusing on...will it appear inside susanoo? amaterasu and kamui will work the same. imagine kamui as a blackhole that appears wherever the eyesight focuses, instead of the black flame. 

As for the question...i really don't know. kakashis' kamui is a jutsu that has many riddles: if kakashi saw madara's meteor from a distance that it looked tiny, would he warp it away easily than when he saw it from close distance, as close as wherever oonoki stood? 

If things happened, I think susanoo will protect the user, as the only two users are now sasuke and madara and i doubt kakashi will just be able to warp them away easily. logically he can, but kishi won't allow that, so naturally he'll give some reasoning that susanoo can protect them. 


What I'm more curious is the yatas' mirror. it is told that it automatically changes its form or shape according to whatever the enemys' jutsu is. if kakashi were to use kamui then would yata  automatically form into a solid that the sharingan can't see through? all it needs is to hide the caster inside it...


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## KeyofMiracles (Oct 13, 2013)

Susanoo may be transparent, but its still there and it can clearly be seen, so Kakashi would have to warp the whole Susanoo away in order to warp the user away.


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## Vice (Oct 13, 2013)

There's nothing to debate. Kamui's not a projectile, Susanoo won't block it.


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## Alita (Oct 13, 2013)

Vice said:


> There's nothing to debate. Kamui's not a projectile, Susanoo won't block it.


This right here.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Oct 13, 2013)

Kamui warps the fabric of space itself. Its akin to a fucking black hole. Conventional defenses and durability are meaningless to it, all that matters is the volume of the target.


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## richard lewis (Oct 13, 2013)

kamui warps the first thing in the users LOS which in this case would be susanoo.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 13, 2013)

What is needed for Kamui to work? Visible target.
Can Kakashi see Susano-user? Yes.

As long as Kakashi sees the area he wants to warp - he can warp it. Susano doesn't stop him from creating a warp zone inside.


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> kamui warps the first thing in the users LOS which in this case would be susanoo.


Kakashi controls where the barrier appears as well as its parameters within that line of sight.


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## Mercurial (Oct 13, 2013)

Normal durability or high enhanced durability mean nothing for the Kamui teleportation. For Kakashi, open a dimensional portal to port the middle half of a tree, of a wall, of a rock, of the 3rd Raikage's body or of anything else doesn't matter. Susano'o is like a giant bell, a chakra construct that thanks to the high density of his chakra becomes a defense who can protect the user from a lot of strong jutsu and strong attacks. Still, it doesn't anything to stop Kakashi's Kamui, firstly because Kamui warping is too fast to react, secondly, because Susano'o simply means nothing for Kamui. Kakashi can see in it and then make the space-time portal appear on the person in Susano'o, or warp the complete Susano'o itself, with the user in it, as he wishes. Kamui it's not a proiectile who can be blocked or dodged as said, it appears on the objective opening the space-time barrier who warps it in the Kamui dimension. Susano'o or not Susano'o doesn't change anything.

On Amaterasu, Amaterasu doesn't appear istantly on the objective as Kamui does, this is clear from manga feats and databook classification, where Amaterasu isn't a long range jutsu, as Kamui is indeed, Amaterasu at middle-long distance travels, not appears.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 13, 2013)

That's what makes Kamui so overpowered. There isn't a single thing you can do to defend against it, you can only outrun it. And even that is pretty much impossible for most.

Susanoo doesn't block Kakashi's line of sight, so he can still warp away the person inside.


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## richard lewis (Oct 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Kakashi controls where the barrier appears as well as its parameters within that line of sight.



how do you know that?

The truth is kakashi never attempted a feat like this.... so know one really knows what would happen were really just speculating here.


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> how do you know that?
> 
> The truth is kakashi never attempted a feat like this.... so know one really knows what would happen were really just speculating here.





No speculation here. The mechanics are written in the manga.


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## Jagger (Oct 13, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> how do you know that?
> 
> The truth is kakashi never attempted a feat like this.... so know one really knows what would happen were really just speculating here.


It's not really speculation when it's the mechanism of Kamui are directly stated in the manga. It is saying Nagato can't absorb Bijuudama because he has never tried to do that. Of course, it depends entirely on the volume and size of the Bijuudam, but my point stands.


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## Samehadaman (Oct 13, 2013)

I guess what we're trying to say here is Kamui GG.


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## Sifus (Oct 13, 2013)

In the anime Sasuke dares Kakashi to try and erase his stage 4 Susano'o. Just Sayin 

I know anime isn't cannon


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 13, 2013)

Susanoo won't help as long as kakashi can see them a materialize a space-time barrier on their asses.

Defense does not matter if you are in kakashi LOS, defense does not matter if obito can just bypass it with dimensional travel. Kamui is too hax.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

Sifus said:


> In the anime Sasuke dares Kakashi to try and erase his stage 4 Susano'o. Just Sayin
> 
> I know anime isn't cannon


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## richard lewis (Oct 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> No speculation here. The mechanics are written in the manga.



IDK what that was supposed to prove? That scan doesn't specify if kumai can warp objects within other objects w/o warping the outside object first.



Jagger said:


> It's not really speculation when it's the mechanism of Kamui are directly stated in the manga. It is saying Nagato can't absorb Bijuudama because he has never tried to do that. Of course, it depends entirely on the volume and size of the Bijuudam, but my point stands.



The was a bad analogy.... im not saying kakashi can't kamui things. I'm saying his kamui will warp the first object in his LOS, in this case is susanoo. So to go off of your nagato analogy, if nagato wanted to steal sasuke's chakra but sasuke had susanoo up nagato would have to absorb susanoo first in order to get to sasuke.


Kakashi could still probably warp a hole in susanoo and then warp sasuke b4 sasuke can counter. So it's not like kamui is ineffective against opponents that use susanoo.


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> IDK what that was supposed to prove? That scan doesn't specify if kumai can warp objects within other objects w/o warping the outside object first.


It proved what I said in my previous post, that "Kakashi controls where the barrier appears as well as its parameters within that line of sight." 

I didn't talk about anything beyond that.


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## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Susano'o will not stop an immaterial, dimensional void if it does nothing to stop lightened materials like Gaara's sand from getting through its defense.



Gaara's sand is not transparent. Hence why there is a schism.


I say that in order to warp someone within Susano'o, Kakashi would have to either *a)* warp away all parts of the Susano'o protecting the user or *b)* warp away the part of Susano'o that is in between the body of the target and Kakashi, and thus create an opening from which he can target the caster.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 13, 2013)

Saru said:


> Gaara's sand is not transparent. Hence why there is a schism.



He's saying a solid object got through susanoo so a s/t jutsu of Kamui's caliber should too.


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## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He's saying a solid object got through susanoo so a s/t jutsu of Kamui's caliber should too.



I misunderstood. 

That was done from the opening beneath Madara's Susano'o IIRC, so it's not even comparable to the linearity of this hypothetical situation, in my opinion.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 13, 2013)

Saru said:


> I misunderstood.
> 
> That was done from the opening beneath Madara's Susano'o IIRC, so it's not even comparable to the linearity of this hypothetical situation, in my opinion.



He didn't pull Madara out through the feet meaning the sand went through susanoo.


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## Vice (Oct 13, 2013)

Yeah, he pulled Madara straight out the side of Susanoo.


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## αce (Oct 13, 2013)

> Susano'o will not stop an immaterial,  dimensional void if it does nothing to stop lightened materials like  Gaara's sand from getting through its defense.



Well that's a terrible comparison. Kamui works by warping whatever is in the line of sight - similar to pretty much every Mangekyou ability. How is that in any way similar to Gaara's sand which just forced its way through? Kamui won't bypass Susano-o and warp the person behind it. It would just warp the entire Susano-o and the person inside goes along for the ride.


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

I posted the scan where Kakashi describes Kamui mechanics as "controlling the *location* and size of the barrier limiting the area"

If Kakashi's target is within his line of sight, then he can choose the location within that line of sight to which Kamui appears.

There's nothing stopping Kakashi from warping the space and air in front of Deidara even though he can still see Deidara through his line of targeting.


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## eyeknockout (Oct 13, 2013)

kamui can beat susanoo, but it wouldn't beat Yata's mirror


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## Vice (Oct 13, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> kamui can beat susanoo, but it wouldn't beat Yata's mirror



Why wouldn't it? Once again, it's not an elemental jutsu or a projectile.


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## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> I posted the scan where Kakashi describes Kamui mechanics as "controlling the *location* and size of the barrier limiting the area"
> 
> If Kakashi's target is within his line of sight, then he can choose the location within that line of sight to which Kamui appears.
> 
> There's nothing stopping Kakashi from warping the space and air in front of Deidara even though he can still see Deidara through his line of targeting.



The space and air isn't made up of Uchiha chakra, however.



			
				αce said:
			
		

> Well that's a terrible comparison. Kamui works by warping whatever is in the line of sight - similar to pretty much every Mangekyou ability. How is that in any way similar to Gaara's sand which just forced its way through? Kamui won't bypass Susano-o and warp the person behind it. It would just warp the entire Susano-o and the person inside goes along for the ride.



αce put it in better words than I had. The way the Gaara's sand functioned in that situation is different from the mechanics of Kamui, in the way that αce described. Like Vice pointed out above, Kamui is not a typical projectile, so it shouldn't analyzed like one. Gaara's sand is physical, it's tangible; Kamui has properties that are contrary.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 14, 2013)

Saru said:


> αce put it in better words than I had. The way the Gaara's sand functioned in that situation is different from the mechanics of Kamui, in the way that αce described. Like Vice pointed out above, Kamui is not a typical projectile, so it shouldn't analyzed like one. Gaara's sand is physical, it's tangible; Kamui has properties that are contrary.



We are not treating kamui like a typical projectile. It's not a projectile. It simply appears where Kakashi wants it to. Say like this.

 -Take this as Kakashi using Kamui
 -This is person in Susanoo
[ ] -This is susanoo
@ -This is kamui

You think it works like this

 @@@@@[  ] Thus Kamui can't go through susanoo. But kamui isn't a projectile and it works like this.

           [ @ ] Thus appearing inside susanoo. 

It appears wherever Kakashi can see and where he wants it to in that sight. So since susanoo is transparent, Kakashi can see through it thus putting the barrier (Kamui) inside of susanoo (where he can see).


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## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

Well, I understand what you're saying. 

I just think it's wrong.

If there's that much chakra in between Kakashi's line of sight and the user, Kamui won't be able to warp the specific area behind that chakra (the caster of Susano'o in this case). It doesn't matter that Susano'o is transparent. There's still _stuff_ there.

In other words, Kakashi would be no more able to warp a target standing behind a ball of chakra (e.g. Gōkakyū no Jutsu) then he would a target standing behind a chakra construct (e.g. Susano'o), transparency or no.


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## Laozy (Oct 14, 2013)

Well, *Teuchi Ichiraku* has a final version of the Susano'o, which completely blocks line of sight. Kakashi isn't getting past _that_ one.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 14, 2013)

Saru said:


> Well, I understand what you're saying.
> 
> I just think it's wrong.
> 
> ...



I understand what your saying, but you are wrong.

Answer me this, Could Kakashi kamui someone while looking through a window(a physical construct)? And the answer is yes due to the mechanics of Susanoo.

Chakra doesn't block line of sight. AND IT doesn't matter about line of sight but just sight. 

When was it ever stated that the first thing within their sight is what is kamui'd? If that was true and by all means it would stop immediately in front of Kakashi as you can say that air, water molecules and plenty of other thing in the air will block line of sight, but then why doesn't it? Because it can extend to any target that you can see and a lot of people misinterpret that as line of sight. And in most cases that would be right, but not in this case.


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## Santoryu (Oct 14, 2013)

Susano's about as useful as Iruka against Kamui when its wielded by a master.


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## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I understand what your saying, but you are wrong.
> 
> Answer me this, Could Kakashi kamui someone while looking through a window(a physical construct)? And the answer is yes due to the mechanics of Susanoo.
> 
> ...



You are taking my words places that they weren't intended to go.

Susano'o is made up of dense, tangible *chakra*. If one were to touch it, they could physically _feel_ it. I'm not talking about molecules or "other things," which don't have the same properties as Susano'o. 

Windows aren't made up of chakra either.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2013)

Kakashi can't bypass Susano'o. He needs to warp Susano'O first. 

Susano'o isn't completely transparent.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 14, 2013)

Saru said:


> You are taking my words places that they weren't intended to go.
> 
> Susano'o is made up of dense, tangible *chakra*. If one were to touch it, they could physically _feel_ it. I'm not talking about molecules or "other things," which don't have the same properties as Susano'o.


I understand what you are saying. But given the MS techs we have been shown Kamui seems the most hax. And in Amaterasu case Susanoo would block it as its a projectile, but Kamui is not a projectile. You can think of Kamui as being everywhere at once but only activates(opens) where the user wants it to within the parameters that the mechanics dictates. How does a airplane fly if it isn't forced up by a physical force? Swing your hand through the air, feel the resistance. Mass of the object does not matter within the parameters.





> Windows aren't made up of chakra either.


So are you saying that Kakashi would be able to? I will take that as yes unless you say otherwise.


'I reach over, look at my window, I touch it, I feel it. I take a picture through my window, not only is the window nearly invisible but I captured the trees as well as everything else within its parameters. That is the most simple way I can put it. If you still can't grasp this concept try what I just did out and read the manga intensively in every depiction of Kamui, Amaterasu, and Susanoo and even read the excerpts from the databook entries regarding Kamui and Susanoo. 



@Grimmjow- Not completely transparent? What does that even mean? Either it is or its not and the manga clearly depicts that everyone can clearly see the user of Susanoo and the anime further clarifies that.


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## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I understand what you are saying. But given the MS techs we have been shown Kamui seems the most hax. And in Amaterasu case Susanoo would block it as its a projectile, but Kamui is not a projectile. You can think of Kamui as being everywhere at once but only activates(opens) where the user wants it to within the parameters that the mechanics dictates. How does a airplane fly if it isn't forced up by a physical force? Swing your hand through the air, feel the resistance. Mass of the object does not matter within the parameters.So are you saying that Kakashi would be able to? I will take that as yes unless you say otherwise.



I was talking about transparency, with a _secondary_ focus on the properties of the air. I really don't want to bring to much science into this, but the properties of the air (the medium which we all live in the real world) are very different from the properties of a *dense solid* like Susano'o. And once again, a window isn't made of chakra, so it's unique to the use of Kamui in that sitaution (and thus not pertinent here). In this situation, Kamui is being used to target someone who is placed within a construct made of chakra. However, I would tend towards "no, he can't use Kamui through a window" in the situation you provided.



> 'I reach over, look at my window, I touch it, I feel it. I take a picture through my window, not only is the window nearly invisible but I captured the trees as well as everything else within its parameters. That is the most simple way I can put it. If you still can't grasp this concept try what I just did out and read the manga intensively in every depiction of Kamui, Amaterasu, and Susanoo and even read the excerpts from the databook entries regarding Kamui and Susanoo.



Except that a camera works _nothing_ like Kamui... At all. It _takes in_ light.

Unless you're referring to the flash of a camera, but that doesn't work like Kamui either, because the flash of light is actually a projectile. 



> @Grimmjow- Not completely transparent? What does that even mean? Either it is or its not and the manga clearly depicts that everyone can clearly see the user of Susanoo and the anime further clarifies that.



Actually, the interaction between light and matter is not that concrete. Mediums have varying degrees of transparency and translucency (which refers to the ability of light to pass through a medium, but not necessarily show a clear image of what is within said medium). This is different from opacity, which refers to the degree that light is unable to pass through a material. 

I think the thread is getting further away from the manga with this real world discussion though.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 14, 2013)

Your beyond help...I dont' mean in it in a mean way, I just can't help you realize the truth maybe someone else will.


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## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Your beyond help...I dont' mean in it in a mean way, I just can't help you realize the truth maybe someone else will.



Your presumption comes across as a concession... 

But if you don't have the moxie, okay. 

I'm willing to debate your position.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 15, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> @Grimmjow- Not completely transparent? What does that even mean? Either it is or its not and the manga clearly depicts that everyone can clearly see the user of Susanoo and the anime further clarifies that.



Susano'o has color to it. It isn't fully transparent. It is semi-transparent. 
I also don't think Kakashi can't form the barrier behind an obscuration. There is no evidence that he can.


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## Sans (Oct 15, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> how do you know that?
> 
> The truth is kakashi never attempted a feat like this.... so know one really knows what would happen were really just speculating here.





Kai said:


> No speculation here. The mechanics are written in the manga.



Also the first thing Kakashi can see is the air in front of him, as long as it's not opaque, Kamui should be fine.


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## Csdabest (Oct 15, 2013)

Kamui would have to warp the whole thing away. Or two a 2 prong kamui attack. One to warp away a big enough hole. Then the other to warp the actual user. But so far.  dont think anyone can perform it that fast before the person can counter


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## IchLiebe (Oct 15, 2013)

Saru said:


> Your presumption comes across as a concession...
> 
> But if you don't have the moxie, okay.
> 
> I'm willing to debate your position.



I conceded because obviously you can't comprehend pyshics nor my position on pyshics. I do not concede my position.

Willing to debate my position? You've done a shitty job so far so keep trying. You have yet to refute any of my points with solid evidence just as no one else that is saying Susanoo defends against it has done.

Y'alls best argument is that its made of chakra and has color therefore it can't which is unfounded and ridiculous.



			
				GrimmjowSensei said:
			
		

> Susano'o has color to it. It isn't fully transparent. It is semi-transparent.
> I also don't think Kakashi can't form the barrier behind an obscuration. There is no evidence that he can.



Answer this- Can Kakashi see inside of Susanoo...yes so then it must be transparent.

* Rapidfire bijuudama*
* Rapidfire bijuudama*
* Rapidfire bijuudama*


Now look at this page
* Rapidfire bijuudama*

You see how we can not see the other half of Obito's body, that because the rock isn't transparent and thus Kakashi can not Kamui through a wall as that goes against the mechanics of the jutsu, whereas going through Susanoo doesn't, it goes with the mechanics of Kamui.


Nice to see you all have concrete evidence supporting your theories.


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## Tahj Sarutobi (Oct 22, 2013)

Kamui would warp the susanoo and the person, the same way that clothes and the person are warped together.
Remember a whole explosion was warped by sucking it in, it is like a black hole to some degree, although it is not gravity.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 22, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Answer this- Can Kakashi see inside of Susanoo...yes so then it must be transparent.
> 
> shit tier
> shit tier
> ...



Well you may be right. ;Kakashi's Kamui has the same mechanics with Obito's Kamui.
And Obito can warp to places that aren't necessarily in his LOS. Behind walls etc. 
So Kakashi might just open up a barrier behind another object if he can see through the object.

But again, I am not 100% sure of this.


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