# Healthy Kimmi Vs Healthy Itachi.



## IchLiebe (Jul 16, 2014)

Location- Where Kimmi fought Lee
Distance- 100m
Knowledge- Full
Mindset- Bloodlusted

Restrictions-Izanami, KotoA

Conditions- Itachi is as healthy as he's ever been shown while having all feats he's ever shown. Kimmi isn't sick his body is 100%.




Scenario 2-

Knowledge- none
Distance- 5meters
Restrictions- CS, MS, Genjutsu, Bone Forest




THoughts?


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## Itachі (Jul 16, 2014)

Itachi wins the first scenario, Genjutsu is enough and with his other techniques he rapes. He closes the 100m gap with a Katon, rushes in and uses Genjutsu on Kimi.

He loses the second scenario due to restrictions on Genjutsu and his without his MS he's done for, at 5m Kimimaro gets him quickly, even if they weren't so close Itachi couldn't touch him.

Edit: 





> Itachi is as healthy as he's ever been shown


 so Itachi isn't healthy? We're not sure if he was affected by the disease in Part 1 yet.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 16, 2014)

No but he is healthy...no sickness. I guess you will just have to assume what that means. How can one base it one his Edo performance when Edos are restricted by boundaries that normal shinobis' are. 

Neither will die of sickness. And both get a chakra boost, minimal at best(although one could argue Kimmi would get more boosts and the boost would be proportionally larger due to him being on his deathbed literally when he was shown to fight), but won't succumb to their illness.

But if you want to say p2 Itachi with p1 Itach's body that will be suitable imo.

Also they get all feats shown throughout their edo forms.


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## Itachі (Jul 16, 2014)

Ah, I see, that makes sense. My opinion stands unchanged then.


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## Suit (Jul 16, 2014)

Itachi low-diffs... I mean, stomps the first scenario.

Itachi wins high-diff second. He was a battle genius. Kimimaro just has a really insane kekkei genkai. Not insane enough for Itachi to lose against though.

Edit: didn't see CS and bone forest restrictions. Itachi mid-diffs, possibly low.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 16, 2014)

Itachi's a bad opponent for Kimimaro due to having more than a few ways of beating him without having to deal with his bone armor


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## Nikushimi (Jul 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Location- Where Kimmi fought Lee
> Distance- 100m
> Knowledge- Full
> Mindset- Bloodlusted
> ...



Itachi stomps effortlessly with Genjutsu and a kunai.



> Scenario 2-
> 
> Knowledge- none
> Distance- 5meters
> ...



With no knowledge for either side, Kimimaro engages Itachi in base form, then gets his neck snapped before he knows what happened.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 16, 2014)

Itachi destroys Kimmi in the first scenario. 

In the second scenario Itachi has no way to hurt Kimmi. He can dodge, but he will eventually get defeated.


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## Itachі (Jul 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> With no knowledge for either side, Kimimaro engages Itachi in base form, then gets his neck snapped before he knows what happened.



And how will that happen?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 16, 2014)

Itachi is reflexive enough to evade Kimimaro and Itachi's ninjutsu and weapons would definitely land, but Kimimaro has Tsunade's regeneration, Kakuzu's durability, and base Gai's skill..​


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## Jagger (Jul 16, 2014)

The second scenario is actually the difficult one.

Itachi can keep Kimmimaro at bay with his Sharingan if he decides to engage with Taijutsu, but I don't think he will constantly do it. He's overwhelmed in terms of physical strength (most likely) and Kimi's Ninjutsu is dangerous in close-range. 

Itachi's best option is to trick Kimi with a crow shadow clone and try to stick a kunai in Kimi's skull.


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2014)

In the 2nd scenario without CS he won't have enough heals to defend from constant burning which bypasses Kimi's durability to blunt force/crushing force. Suiton can also pretty much assure he can bail himself out of situations along with his clone feints. Other than Katon Itachi has no way to win.


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## Cognitios (Jul 17, 2014)

1st Scenario I won't dignify a response.
2nd Scenario Itachi still takes it, his katons that are able to burn Samehada might I add will be able to take out Kimi by burns. Exploding Clones also do damage to Kimi, especially without CS or Bone Forrest/


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## RedChidori (Jul 17, 2014)

Jagger said:


> The second scenario is actually the difficult one.
> 
> Itachi can keep Kimmimaro at bay with his Sharingan if he decides to engage with Taijutsu, but I don't think he will constantly do it. He's overwhelmed in terms of physical strength (most likely) and Kimi's Ninjutsu is dangerous in close-range.
> 
> Itachi's best option is to trick Kimi with a crow shadow clone and try to stick a kunai in Kimi's skull.



Jagger summed up the thread .


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## Ersa (Jul 17, 2014)

Itachi decimates the first scenario.

Without MS and genjutsu honestly Itachi has it rough in scenario 2, he's faster and has much better reflexes but in terms of CQC he's outclassed, Juin/Kekkai Genkai combined with 4.5 speed and base Gai level skill in taijutsu means he can dance around Kimimaro in CQC but he'll never land anything really significant while he'll be royally screwed if Kimimaro gets his hands on him. Itachi's best bet is honestly to spam Katon from range but if Kimimaro makes liberal use of his CS1 to improve his reflexes honestly Itachi's not landing a whole tonne and could honestly end up going down to attrition in which Kimimaro holds the edge.


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## Ghost (Jul 17, 2014)

Itachi rapestomps.


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## Ghost (Jul 17, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> And how will that happen?



What feats does Kimi have that support the idea he won't get blitzed from 5 meters? And I don't remember anything that would suggest that the durability he gains when using his Kekkei Genkai for defense is passive in base.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 17, 2014)

Itachi negs 1st scenario.


Low difs the 2nd one.


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## ARGUS (Jul 17, 2014)

whats with the severe hate of Itachi thats goin around in the forums,,, ??? 
itachi wins both scenarios, with only the second one being a decent fight,


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## Nikushimi (Jul 17, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> And how will that happen?



Itachi is faster than Kimimaro.
Itachi is physically stronger than Kimimaro.
Itachi has Sharingan.
Kimimaro doesn't have Sharingan.
Base Kimimaro struggled to fight Lee.
Itachi physically and metaphysically raped post-Chuunin Exams Sasuke, who was Lee's equal in Taijutsu (and could also use Ninjutsu).

Itachi fucking murders Kimi at his own game. The only thing that would tip the scales is the Juin, but even if Kimi gets a chance to activate it, Itachi can just roast him with Katon until he's dead.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm an Itachi fan and I think Itachi loses the second match... people just severely underestimate Kimimaro, because they severely underestimate drunk Lee, SRA Gaara, and the Sound 4. 

Kimimaro's better than Tsunade in pretty much every way: a lot faster, a lot more evasive, a lot more durable, just as resilient in regeneration, much better ninjutsu, more analytical...

And yet people that think Tsunade beats base Itachi (with illusions) somehow think Itachi kills Kimimaro with a kick to the neck—someone with adamantine-like bones and whose body regenerates. 

Wolverine. Yeah. Kimimaro's Wolverine if Wolverine were a master with weapons and taijutsu. So he's Wolverine fused with Bullseye... and he can make a giant forest of bones _and become a logia_.​


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## ueharakk (Jul 18, 2014)

Healthy itachi > Sick itachi > hebi sasuke >/= healthy kimimaro

Second scenario would probably be closer, but itachi would still win as kimimaro explicitly stated that *juugo increased his powers exponentially.*


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## Ersa (Jul 18, 2014)

Yeah I think people don't understand that 4.5 speed, Base Gai level taijutsu knowledge/skill, Cursed Seal of Earth and a bloodline limit tailored to CQC (which Orochimaru wanted) could make someone pretty dangerous in CQC.

Somehow even Hidan with his pansy speed and decent taijutsu prowess can wreck him.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Healthy itachi > Sick itachi > hebi sasuke >/= healthy kimimaro
> 
> Second scenario would probably be closer, but itachi would still win as kimimaro explicitly stated that *juugo increased his powers exponentially.*



Not that I disagree with your conclusion, but Juugo's power (the Juin) would increase anybody's powers exponentially. That's what Senjutsu does.



> Somehow even Hidan with his pansy speed and decent taijutsu prowess can wreck him.



Hidan happens to be physically stronger...even more-so than Itachi...and also has a 4.5 Taijutsu score, putting him just shy of Kimimaro's ballpark. Kimimaro's rather significant edge in speed makes it likely he could hang in the fight by avoiding direct attacks for a while, but once Hidan gets some of his blood, Kimimaro is toast. Whatever limited healing factor Kimi possesses won't save him from a blow to the vitals through Hidan's voodoo doll bullshit.

Hidan is immortal, so he can take impalement all day; what Kimimaro doesn't seem to have is a bone with a fine edge--something he can use for easy decapitation, which is the only way to stop Hidan.


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## Bonly (Jul 18, 2014)

Itachi wins scenario one quite handily lol. Scenario on the other hand will be quite hard  for Itachi as no genjutsu and no MS jutsu limits the meaningful damage he can really do to Kimi. Itachi isn't gonna do much in Taijutsu and CQC when Kimi has regen and his KG to make mask under his skin to make Itachi's attacks pretty much meaningless. Really only way I see Itachi winning is by constantly and repeatedly landing Katons on Kimi otherwise I don't see what he has to keep Kimi down.


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## Csdabest (Jul 18, 2014)

Itachi genjutsu stomps the first scenario. But Kimimaro pretty much rips through Itachi in the 2nd scenario with the restrictions. Itachi has nothing in his arsenal really outside of Mangekyo & Genjutsu to put Kimimaro down. And Kimimaro is insanely skilled.


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## Ersa (Jul 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Hidan happens to be physically stronger...even more-so than Itachi...and also has a 4.5 Taijutsu score, putting him just shy of Kimimaro's ballpark. Kimimaro's rather significant edge in speed makes it likely he could hang in the fight by avoiding direct attacks for a while, but once Hidan gets some of his blood, Kimimaro is toast. Whatever limited healing factor Kimi possesses won't save him from a blow to the vitals through Hidan's voodoo doll bullshit.


Physically stronger in base? Yes I'd agree. But that gap can be closed with Juin and superior taijutsu skill. And I don't see Hidan coming out on top in any CQC circumstance, he's slower, less skillful and lacks regeneration and Kimimaro's bloodline. Being physically stronger is helpful but not as important if you're outgunned in every other metric.

I question if Hidan can manage to draw the circle and impale himself before the relatively impatient Kimimaro gets his hands on him. I suppose in a no knowledge situation the possibility is quite likely but then again it's equally likely Hidan runs into like an idiot and gets a face full of senjutsu-amplified bones.



> Hidan is immortal, so he can take impalement all day; what Kimimaro doesn't seem to have is a bone with a fine edge--something he can use for easy decapitation, which is the only way to stop Hidan.


Impaling Hidan's brain with multiple Juin-enhanced bones should have a similar effect. Or lock him down with Sawabi No Mai.


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## Rain (Jul 18, 2014)

Kimimaro gets his bones burned to a crisp by any Katon in Itachi's arsenal.


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## Hijack (Jul 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Not that I disagree with your conclusion, but Juugo's power (the Juin) would increase anybody's powers exponentially. That's what Senjutsu does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're significantly underestimating Itachi's physical strength. While Hidan has barely any feats that imply him to be physically strong, Itachi has wrecked the ground and countered KCM Naruto's strength with utmost ease, which has shown to be able to obliterate rocks.

Scoring 4.5 in Taijutsu does not mean much: it could be due to his speed, agility, strength or all of them combined. Itachi has scored the same, meaning he's at least on par. It does not mean one is stronger than another, since there are multiple factors that decide the score.

Kimimaro also destroys Hidan to the point, it's not even funny.
​


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## kingcools (Jul 18, 2014)

why do some people wank kimi so bad? i never got that as he was not able to defeat two genins (albeit a bit stronger ones) in a split second.

Itachi, a guy that was relevant till like 50 chapters ago and was portrayed as a perfect shinobi in every regard (*cough* thinking like a kage at age 7, owning a sannin at age 11, hand seals too fast for others to see *cough*) will literally take a dump on mister skeleton "oh im so sick buhu" kimimaro.

Itachi beats him with hands tight to his back, honestly.

itachi wins both scenarios 10/10, first scenario without any difficulty, second one low difficulty


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## Csdabest (Jul 18, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Healthy itachi > Sick itachi > hebi sasuke >/= healthy kimimaro
> 
> Second scenario would probably be closer, but itachi would still win as kimimaro explicitly stated that *juugo increased his powers exponentially.*



How. Kunais are not puncturing Kimimaro bone frame. And Kimimaro can Regenerate meaning he will just regen from Itachi Katon. Kimimaro is just as good skill wise as Hebi Sasuke. Someone Itachi GREATLY STRUGGLED WITH even with Mangekyo. Kimimaro is geared for CQC Dominance up to you reach High Kage-God Tier. Kimimaro would be healthy Itachi who is restricted with Mid difficulty. Only reason its difficult because Itachi is no rookie either and is vastly skilled. But Kimimaro defenses and offensive capabilities with his bones even with out the forest would prove to much for Itachi in the long run for the 2nd scenario.

Yeah juugo power did but that more prevailent with his Curse Seal activated.  And he already shown to be a beast in base as well with out CS. But yes. Hebi Sasuke and Itachi with unrestricted  abilities would put down kimimaro. Itachi easier than Sasuke thanks to his Mangekyo. But the only real thing Hebi Sasuke has over Kimimaro that would actually put him down is Kirin and genjutsu. Anything less and Sasuke would be involved in a losing battle.


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## Hijack (Jul 18, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> How. Kunais are not puncturing Kimimaro bone frame. And Kimimaro can Regenerate meaning he will just regen from Itachi Katon. Kimimaro is just as good skill wise as Hebi Sasuke. Someone Itachi GREATLY STRUGGLED WITH even with Mangekyo. Kimimaro is geared for CQC Dominance up to you reach High Kage-God Tier. Kimimaro would be healthy Itachi who is restricted with Mid difficulty. Only reason its difficult because Itachi is no rookie either and is vastly skilled. But Kimimaro defenses and offensive capabilities with his bones even with out the forest would prove to much for Itachi in the long run for the 2nd scenario.
> 
> Yeah juugo power did but that more prevailent with his Curse Seal activated.  And he already shown to be a beast in base as well with out CS. But yes. Hebi Sasuke and Itachi with unrestricted  abilities would put down kimimaro. Itachi easier than Sasuke thanks to his Mangekyo. But the only real thing Hebi Sasuke has over Kimimaro that would actually put him down is Kirin and genjutsu. Anything less and Sasuke would be involved in a losing battle.



Can hardly take this seriously. Hebi Sasuke is at least Kage-level, with matured Sharingan, pseudo-SM as well as the best Raiton variants. He also had snake summons, and Katon techniques that could destroy a ceiling like it was made out of glass. Not to mention, Sasuke served as a perfect counter to Itachi: he could counter the Tsukuyomi due to his blood heritage, he was extremely fast and strong as well as had plenty of other strong jutsu's. Hebi Sasuke would beat Kimimaro with little to no difficulty. Same applies to Itachi in this scenario.

Kunai can punctuate his defense with relative ease, only if Itachi manages to catch him off-guard - something Itachi is perfectly capable of. The only reason why he was so durable, was due to his bone armor - something if he doesn't apply quickly enough, proving to be a fatal missing ingredient in his defense. His durability is otherwise no stronger than regular human's, while he can only heal his skin. That's not something he needs in this case.

It's also something he can do only with Curse Mark - we don't really know if Kimimaro can create defense this dense, thick and big without it. 

The only debatable part is, whether Itachi can land a hit or not. And with his nigh-celestial speed portrayed in manga multiple times, Itachi shouldn't have any problems doing so.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2014)

Out of all kinds of wanks, I don't get the Kimi wank.

Kimi was impressive in the genin/chuunin bracket. He'd get stomped by any decent jounin and above. Thats how he was portrayed imo.



Bonly said:


> Itachi wins scenario one quite handily lol. Scenario on the other hand will be quite hard  for Itachi as no genjutsu and no MS jutsu limits the meaningful damage he can really do to Kimi. Itachi isn't gonna do much in Taijutsu and CQC when Kimi has regen and his KG to make mask under his skin to make Itachi's attacks pretty much meaningless. Really only way I see Itachi winning is by constantly and repeatedly landing Katons on Kimi otherwise I don't see what he has to keep Kimi down.



Thats assuming Kimi can react to everything Itachi throws @ him. There will be attacks that'll land on him before he can raise his bone armor, in between superior speed, sharingan precog, bunshin feints and other kinds of ninjutsu.

Kimimaro gets dispatched easily as he is too one dimensional to deal with everything Itachi can throw @ him.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2014)

Hijack said:


> You're significantly underestimating Itachi's physical strength. While Hidan has barely any feats that imply him to be physically strong, Itachi has wrecked the ground and countered KCM Naruto's strength with utmost ease, which has shown to be able to obliterate rocks.
> ​



He also sent Kurenai and Sasuke sailing when he hit them.

Dat healthy Itachi strength.​


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## Hijack (Jul 18, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> He also sent Kurenai and Sasuke sailing when he hit them.
> 
> Dat healthy Itachi strength.​



Exactly: Itachi's strength is something not to be underestimated.​


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## Pocalypse (Jul 18, 2014)

This is a terrible battle. First scenario is a stomp in Itachi's favor and the second scenario is a cripple fight where Itachi loses, you had to go and restrict CS *and* Bone Forest?


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## Csdabest (Jul 18, 2014)

Hijack said:


> Can hardly take this seriously. Hebi Sasuke is at least Kage-level, with matured Sharingan, pseudo-SM as well as the best Raiton variants. He also had snake summons, and Katon techniques that could destroy a ceiling like it was made out of glass. Not to mention, Sasuke served as a perfect counter to Itachi: he could counter the Tsukuyomi due to his blood heritage, he was extremely fast and strong as well as had plenty of other strong jutsu's. Hebi Sasuke would beat Kimimaro with little to no difficulty. Same applies to Itachi in this scenario.
> 
> Kunai can punctuate his defense with relative ease, only if Itachi manages to catch him off-guard - something Itachi is perfectly capable of. The only reason why he was so durable, was due to his bone armor - something if he doesn't apply quickly enough, proving to be a fatal missing ingredient in his defense. His durability is otherwise no stronger than regular human's, while he can only heal his skin. That's not something he needs in this case.
> 
> ...



Itachi is not getting close to kimimaro to land a hit. Even w/o Curse Seal. 
*Spoiler*: __ 








Kimimaro is also recorded in the Databook as being superior in taijutsu according to the stat tiers.  And Kimimaro bone protrusions and dance are too unpredictable to combat effectively. Essentially it would be like fighting killer Bee except a bone can shoot out at you any time from anywhere on his body.


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## Hijack (Jul 18, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Itachi is not getting close to kimimaro to land a hit. Even w/o Curse Seal.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



You're grasping straws from non-canon material. That was in the anime, not manga. I presume the fight wasn't even recorded canonically at all.

That doesn't matter. Sharingan predicts his movements, as well as Itachi has better speed feats than Kimimaro. That alone should tell you that Itachi can easily trump Kimimaro in terms of Taijutsu: while even if it is unpredictable, B, who is much faster and more unpredictable than Kimimaro couldn't himself predict Itachi's movements as well as trump Itachi in terms of speed [1].

He can't shoot bones from everywhere of his body. Only his fingertips are able to do so, and if even sand that is slower than Part I Lee could block those attacks with no difficulty, then Itachi can run 10 times back and forth while doing so.​


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## Pocalypse (Jul 18, 2014)

And yet you think a kunai can kill Kimimaro but a Shinra Tensei can't?

Your other quote from the other thread:


> "That doesn't kill him. It would indeed reduce his bones and smash them all, but that's all meaningless in front of his regeneration."



Heal his skin
Or regeneration of bones

Stop flip flopping and make a decision.


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## Hijack (Jul 18, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> And yet you think a kunai can kill Kimimaro but a Shinra Tensei can't?
> 
> Your other quote from the other thread:
> 
> ...



That's due to his bone armor. Without Curse Mark, he cannot achieve that. Without bone armor, he can't prevent a Kunai punctuating his heart or slicing his neck. Unless you believe his regeneration ability can regenerate lost limbs or even severed head, even you should know by now the answer.

With bone armor available, I wouldn't be debating this. There's apparently a difference if you didn't notice already.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Itachi is not getting close to kimimaro to land a hit. Even w/o Curse Seal.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Yes because Itachi is fodder samurai.


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## Bonly (Jul 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats assuming Kimi can react to everything Itachi throws @ him. There will be attacks that'll land on him before he can raise his bone armor, in between superior speed, sharingan precog, bunshin feints and other kinds of ninjutsu.
> 
> Kimimaro gets dispatched easily as he is too one dimensional to deal with everything Itachi can throw @ him.



Nothing Itachi throws at him is doing anything. If Kimi for whatever reason can't react to Itachi then he just puts up a mask of bones from shortly after and keep it up still making damn near everything Itachi can do useless whether you like it or not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Nothing Itachi throws at him is doing anything.



Sorry, stopped reading here.

You'll need to start post with something else(preferably something that makes sense) if you want me to reply to it.


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## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2014)

People forgetting that burning bypasses conventional durability? Explosive clones would also hamper him.


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## Bonly (Jul 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sorry, stopped reading here.
> 
> You'll need to start post with something else(preferably something that makes sense) if you want me to reply to it.



I don't care if you reply or not, you replied to me first, not the other way so I replied back. I've given up on you admitting Itachi loses 97 percent of the time so I'm good if you stop.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2014)

Hijack said:


> You're significantly underestimating Itachi's physical strength. While Hidan has barely any feats that imply him to be physically strong, Itachi has wrecked the ground and countered KCM Naruto's strength with utmost ease, which has shown to be able to obliterate rocks.
> 
> Scoring 4.5 in Taijutsu does not mean much: it could be due to his speed, agility, strength or all of them combined. Itachi has scored the same, meaning he's at least on par. It does not mean one is stronger than another, since there are multiple factors that decide the score.
> 
> ...



I'm not underestimating Itachi's physical strength; it's right there in the databooks that Itachi has a 3.5 and Hidan has a 4. 

That doesn't mean Itachi's weak; it just means Hidan's stronger (physically).

And no, Kimimaro can't do shit to Hidan. The only thing he can do is stab him all day and that will just make Hidan jizz his pants and it will probably be used against Kimimaro via the blood ritual.



Ersatz said:


> Physically stronger in base? Yes I'd agree. But that gap can be closed with Juin and superior taijutsu skill.



Sasuke is also physically stronger than Kimimaro and Itachi was shown able to restrain his Juin form with a Kage Bunshin.

In addition to that, Itachi fought an actual Sage Mode user in Kabuto and successfully parried him twice during a physical clash.



> And I don't see Hidan coming out on top in any CQC circumstance, he's slower, less skillful and lacks regeneration and Kimimaro's bloodline. Being physically stronger is helpful but not as important if you're outgunned in every other metric.



But he's immortal and literally every attack in Kimimaro's arsenal is incapable of killing him. I wouldn't bank on the speed or skill difference making Kimi untouchable, either; Hidan's not afraid to soak damage in order to land a hit, which was his and Kakuzu's go-to strategy. The instant Kimi puts a bone through him, Hidan's got an opportunity to trap him and counterattack.



> I question if Hidan can manage to draw the circle and impale himself before the relatively impatient Kimimaro gets his hands on him.



Kimimaro gets his hands on Hidan and Hidan rapes him in the butt, and that's all that needs to be said about that; there's as much of a difference between them in physical strength as there is in speed.



> I suppose in a no knowledge situation the possibility is quite likely but then again it's equally likely Hidan runs into like an idiot and gets a face full of senjutsu-amplified bones.



The thing is, though, that wouldn't kill Hidan...



> Impaling Hidan's brain with multiple Juin-enhanced bones should have a similar effect. Or lock him down with Sawabi No Mai.



Sawarabi no Mai wouldn't kill Hidan, either, and it's not precise enough to completely restrain him.



Csdabest said:


> Itachi is not getting close to kimimaro to land a hit. Even w/o Curse Seal.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi did fight Killer B, and he took on the seven-sword style apparently unarmed without getting a scratch.

Kimi has nothing he needs to be concerned about.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I don't care if you reply or not, you replied to me first, not the other way so I replied back. I've given up on you admitting Itachi loses 97 percent of the time so I'm good if you stop.



In otherwords you have no argument.



Dr. White said:


> People forgetting that burning bypasses conventional durability? Explosive clones would also hamper him.



Crow clones and crows in general will pretty much leave him open for all kinds of blindside attacks, as they did to a perfect sage who is boasted for his sensing and evasiveness.
Kimimaro gets blindsided and killed pretty early on.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2014)

If Healthy Kimi>Hebi Sasuke, then Kimi>Healthy Itachi seeing as Hebi Sasuke with knowledge>>>Itachi.

Plus Kimimaro was severely held back with his disease unlike Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Healthy Kimi>Hebi Sasuke, then Kimi>Healthy Itachi seeing as Hebi Sasuke with knowledge>>>Itachi.
> 
> Plus Kimimaro was severely held back with his disease unlike Itachi.



Troll harder/


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Healthy Kimi>Hebi Sasuke, then Kimi>Healthy Itachi seeing as Hebi Sasuke with knowledge>>>Itachi.
> 
> Plus Kimimaro was severely held back with his disease unlike Itachi.



Healthy Itachi >> Sick Itachi >> Hebi Sasuke > Pre Oro Sasuke >> Healthy Kimi(whatever the fuck that is) > Vote Sasuke > Sick Kimi


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm not underestimating Itachi's physical strength; it's right there in the databooks that Itachi has a 3.5 and Hidan has a 4.



DB3. Sick Itachi.​


Nikushimi said:


> And no, Kimimaro can't do shit to Hidan. The only thing he can do is stab him all day and that will just make Hidan jizz his pants and it will probably be used against Kimimaro via the blood ritual.



Bone Forest immobilizes Hidan better than Nara shadows.​


Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke is also physically stronger than Kimimaro and Itachi was shown able to restrain his Juin form with a Kage Bunshin.



Wasn't that an illusion? The speed and strength Itachi showed there was a representation of _healthy_ Itachi, as Sasuke believed his brother to be healthy. Sick Itachi wouldn't choke out Juin Sauce.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Healthy Itachi >> Sick Itachi >> Hebi Sasuke



Hebi Sasuke with knowledge tops all those Itachi variants. Itachi was forced to use Susanoo; Sasuke with knowledge would have taken that out.

Also Kimimaro was actually taken out by a disease i.e. there's no fanon about how his disease impacted his ability.

Thus if you believe Healthy Kimimaro>Hebi Sasuke, then Itachi will be beneath a Healthy Kimimaro... Kimimaro whose disease prevented him from using all his abilities according to Kabuto.


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## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hebi Sasuke with knowledge tops all those Itachi variants. Itachi was forced to use Susanoo; Sasuke with knowledge would have taken that out.
> 
> Also Kimimaro was actually taken out by a disease i.e. there's no fanon about how his disease impacted his ability.
> 
> Thus if you believe Healthy Kimimaro>Hebi Sasuke, then Itachi will be beneath a Healthy Kimimaro... Kimimaro whose disease prevented him from using all his abilities according to Kabuto.



 

Yeah.......


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Healthy Kimi>Hebi Sasuke, then Kimi>Healthy Itachi seeing as Hebi Sasuke with knowledge>>>Itachi.
> 
> Plus Kimimaro was severely held back with his disease unlike Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hebi Sasuke with knowledge tops all those Itachi variants. Itachi was forced to use Susanoo; Sasuke with knowledge would have taken that out.



2014

Still giving me sig material with the same shit


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## IchLiebe (Jul 18, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Healthy Itachi >> Sick Itachi >> Hebi Sasuke > Pre Oro Sasuke >> Healthy Kimi(whatever the fuck that is) > Vote Sasuke > Sick Kimi



WTF is Healthy Itachi? We have more evidence that supports Kimmi was truly sick with a debilitating disease.


Kimmi take either one easily.

His bones are unpredictable and has the power of a God. He is a tank that can withstand most attacks.


Itachi can't spam Clones. And also Kabuto wasn't watching he had is eyes closed, and kimmi could just sprout a shit ton of bones and kill every fucking crow there is.


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## kingcools (Jul 18, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Nothing Itachi throws at him is doing anything. If Kimi for whatever reason can't react to Itachi then he just puts up a mask of bones from shortly after and keep it up still making damn near everything Itachi can do useless whether you like it or not.



itachi hits him in the eyes with a kunai.
What does his bone armor now?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> WTF is Healthy Itachi? We have more evidence that supports Kimmi was truly sick with a debilitating disease.



Are you arguing Itachi wasn't sick? Lol.​


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## Hijack (Jul 19, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm not underestimating Itachi's physical strength; it's right there in the databooks that Itachi has a 3.5 and Hidan has a 4.
> 
> That doesn't mean Itachi's weak; it just means Hidan's stronger (physically).
> 
> And no, Kimimaro can't do shit to Hidan. The only thing he can do is stab him all day and that will just make Hidan jizz his pants and it will probably be used against Kimimaro via the blood ritual.





Because Databooks are so correct and can be used over feats in manga. Orochimaru scored a 5 in Genjutsu, sadly he has been beaten not once, but *twice* by premature teenagers with it. Neji and Orochimaru scored same as Lee and Sasuke in terms of speed, are they as fast? No. Databook _can_ be proven wrong at times, and Hidan has no feats over Itachi in terms of strength. Therefore I refuse to believe that true.

Because bone as hard as steel cannot decapitate Hidan. Because opponent's can so easily land a hit on Kimimaro, Lee and Gaara had so easy time doing so. Remember that even Shikamaru dodged his scythe attack and managed to fake his scar?

Even if he managed to dodge them, Kimimaro can use his ribcage to stop the scythe and then decapitate him. Even if he doesn't die, like Shikamaru said, he can't do _anything_ with a severed head.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hebi Sasuke with knowledge tops all those Itachi variants. Itachi was forced to use Susanoo; Sasuke with knowledge would have taken that out.
> 
> Also Kimimaro was actually taken out by a disease i.e. there's no fanon about how his disease impacted his ability.
> 
> Thus if you believe Healthy Kimimaro>Hebi Sasuke, then Itachi will be beneath a Healthy Kimimaro... Kimimaro whose disease prevented him from using all his abilities according to Kabuto.





As if Itachi himself was aware of all the jutsu Sasuke had in possession. Not only did he beat Sasuke, but also Orochimaru simultaneously. Even if Sasuke had intel on Susano'O, he would have had nothing to bypass Yata no Kagami; while Itachi, who had no knowledge at all in Kirin, managed to survive the attack filled with _murderous_ intent. Let alone that Itachi never used all of his jutsu, like Katon and Suiton variants.

As Obito said, if Itachi had been serious, Sasuke and Obito would've never had that conversation.​


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## Pocalypse (Jul 19, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Are you arguing Itachi wasn't sick? Lol.​



Both were sick but more people are arguing that for some odd reason Kimimaro wasn't sick when there is clear manga proof provided by Oro and Kabuto as well as Kimimaro that he was indeed sick. He had a bloody disease in him for starters and it kicked in the shittiest time when he was about to kill Gaara and Lee. There's even a clear cut panel of his disease kicking in. 

If Itachi gets this unholy grace feat of being healthy then so should Kimimaro, who was Orochimaru's first choice of being a host body had not Kimimaro even had the disease. The guy was running on pure will power for the majority of the fight and he was sick in his deathbed, not to even mention Kabuto states that if Kimimaro was healthy, the Konoha invasion would have been successful. It's fine for other people to chose characters as proof to outline Itachi is sick but it's not the same when for Kimimaro? Please. Not you personally, but talk about having double standards.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Both were sick but more people are arguing that for some odd reason Kimimaro wasn't sick when there is clear manga proof provided by Oro and Kabuto as well as Kimimaro that he was indeed sick. He had a bloody disease in him for starters and it kicked in the shittiest time when he was about to kill Gaara and Lee. There's even a clear cut panel of his disease kicking in.
> 
> If Itachi gets this unholy grace feat of being healthy then so should Kimimaro, who was Orochimaru's first choice of being a host body had not Kimimaro even had the disease. The guy was running on pure will power for the majority of the fight and he was sick in his deathbed, not to even mention Kabuto states that if Kimimaro was healthy, the Konoha invasion would have been successful. It's fine for other people to chose characters as proof to outline Itachi is sick but it's not the same when for Kimimaro? Please. Not you personally, but talk about having double standards.




The massive difference between these two situations is, Itachi was stated and shown to be performing poorly because of his illness. 
Kimi on the otherhand wasn't. 

Probably the drugs Kabuto injected in him restored him to his prime for a short while. Plus his willpower.



IchLiebe said:


> WTF is Healthy Itachi? We have more evidence that supports Kimmi was truly sick with a debilitating disease.


Healthy Itachi is  the Itachi Zetsu was expecting to see.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Kimimaro's performance was hindered by the disease, verbally or visually.


> Kimmi take either one easily.



Kimi easily defeats a guy who defeated akatsuki members easily.
Makes sense 



> His bones are unpredictable and has the power of a God. He is a tank that can withstand most attacks.


And someone who has full knowledge on that "power of a God" still called Itachi invincible 



> Itachi can't spam Clones. And also Kabuto wasn't watching he had is eyes closed, and kimmi could just sprout a shit ton of bones and kill every fucking crow there is.


Itachi used 2 karasubunshins and sent them on a scouting mission a couple of hours before his fight against Sasuke.
Also he doesn't need to spam clones, one or two is more than enough.

Kabuto having his eyes closed was irrelevant as it didn't hinder him one bit due to his sensory abilities.
Kabuto dodged Sasuke's arrow casually, the same arrow Kakashi could do nothing but barely Kamui.


Itachi rapes.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Both were sick but more people are arguing that for some odd reason Kimimaro wasn't sick when there is clear manga proof provided by Oro and Kabuto as well as Kimimaro that he was indeed sick. He had a bloody disease in him for starters and it kicked in the shittiest time when he was about to kill Gaara and Lee. There's even a clear cut panel of his disease kicking in.
> 
> If Itachi gets this unholy grace feat of being healthy then so should Kimimaro, who was Orochimaru's first choice of being a host body had not Kimimaro even had the disease. The guy was running on pure will power for the majority of the fight and he was sick in his deathbed, not to even mention Kabuto states that if Kimimaro was healthy, the Konoha invasion would have been successful. It's fine for other people to chose characters as proof to outline Itachi is sick but it's not the same when for Kimimaro? Please. Not you personally, but talk about having double standards.



Yeah. Nikushimi and others are going all Munboy on Kimimaro.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2014)

Ok so basically what we have is
Itachi who can:
-Use jutsu faster than Kimmimaro can react to.
-Clone Feint him into a C2 explosion, open him up or just guarantee Kimmi never touches him.
-Physically move faster than Kimmi can/react better.
-Kimmi's best hope is his bone dance, seeing as Itachi dodged Killer Bee's similarly unothrodox 7 sword dance, w/ no weapon, I'm positive Kimmi does nothing here.

Once again no one is answering how Kimmi keeps surviving extreme temperatures. He still has vital organs and still has water in his body, eventually his organs will shut down.


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## Bonly (Jul 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In otherwords you have no argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whatever helps you sleep at night



kingcools said:


> itachi hits him in the eyes with a kunai.
> What does his bone armor now?



Kimi stabs Itachi in the head.
What does Itachi's kunai do now?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Once again no one is answering how Kimmi keeps surviving extreme temperatures. He still has vital organs and still has water in his body, eventually his organs will shut down.



Kimimaro has extremely impressive regeneration and durability. If you don't think a fire release kills Sōzō Tsunade or Domu Kakuzu in Kishimoto's mind, then it shouldn't kill Kimimaro in yours. 

Yeah, Itachi's going to land jutsu after jutsu and land some kunai and shuriken, but Kimimaro can take it. I basically think of Kimimaro as base Bee with regeneration, Domu, and a bone forest logia combo.​


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## Trojan (Jul 19, 2014)

Was not Kimmimaro fighting Naruto's clone?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Was not Kimmimaro fighting Naruto's clone?



Which is a good reason to believe Kimimaro has the resilience to take on the Rasenshuriken, let alone Itachi's fire release.​


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Kimimaro has extremely impressive regeneration and durability. If you don't think a fire release kills Sōzō Tsunade or Domu Kakuzu in Kishimoto's mind, then it shouldn't kill Kimimaro in yours.
> 
> Yeah, Itachi's going to land jutsu after jutsu and land some kunai and shuriken, but Kimimaro can take it. I basically think of Kimimaro as base Bee with regeneration, Domu, and a bone forest logia combo.​



What?
Does Kimmi have Regen in base? His CS does most of that for him.

Base Kimmo is no where comparable to Doton Kakuzu, or Tsunade in healing.

Kimmio doesn't have Bone forest, or CS here so it is pretty much pointless to bring that up in scenario 2. Itachi's katons are hot enough to burn Sameheada who eats chakra on the daily. Kimmo isn't taking too many of those.

He will also never land a hit on Itachi in scenario 2. Like ever. My money is on the much more skilled, more intelligent, Kage level ninja outlasting or finding a way around Kimmo's defense (fire) , before the later kills Itachi.



Strategoob said:


> Which is a good reason to believe Kimimaro has the resilience to take on the Rasenshuriken, let alone Itachi's fire release.​



We didn't even see how he dealt with it. BZ dealt with it by simply loltripping Naruto. No indication was made that he hit him. 

Also don't know why you are comparing something that cuts to something that burns. A > B > C logic doesn't apply when the substance is different, and they affect opponents in different ways.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> What?
> Does Kimmi have Regen in base? His CS does most of that for him.



We saw his shoulder flesh and muscle seal up instantly before he used the CS. Think about how quickly a Kaguya would bleed out and be incapable of fighting if they didn't have amazing regeneration.​


Dr. White said:


> Base Kimmo is no where comparable to Doton Kakuzu, or Tsunade in healing.



Based on what? Domu's best feat is blocking Chōji spinning. Kimimaro tanked the Sand Coffin. Tsunade's best feat is regenerating a pierced spine. Kimimaro pulled out his entire spine.​


Dr. White said:


> Kimmio doesn't have Bone forest, or CS here so it is pretty much pointless to bring that up in scenario 2.



Curse Seal senjutsu made the technique _huge_, but he could use the technique without it, probably about the size that he did when Kabuto used Kimimaro's power (and Itachi used Susano'o.)​


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> We saw his shoulder flesh and muscle seal up instantly before he used the CS. Think about how quickly a Kaguya would bleed out and be incapable of fighting if they didn't have amazing regeneration.​


Can he heal from multiple katons being fired and cooking him? Because he has nothing in his arsenal to stop Itachi just layering on his attacks. I don't think he has the regen you are thinking of just his KKG allows their bodies to do such.



> Based on what? Domu's best feat is blocking Chōji spinning. Kimimaro tanked the Sand Coffin. Tsunade's best feat is regenerating a pierced spine. Kimimaro pulled out his entire spine.​


He was able to fight a Bjuu with it, and didn't he knock down the Budhist gate which was sealed via Fuinjutsu?

Once again didn't Kimmi use CS to recover from sand coffin?






> Curse Seal senjutsu made the technique _huge_, but he could use the technique without it, probably about the size that he did when Kabuto used Kimimaro's power (and Itachi used Susano'o.)​


So without CS it won't be the effective. Itachi has reacted to Mukai Tensei and the canonical bone forest. In this location he can easily shushin out of the way in time and fire a katon at Kimmo.


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## Veracity (Jul 19, 2014)

@stategoob.
No. Kimmis regeneration isn't even close to that of Tsuande . Tsuandes best feat was what ? Regenerating a spine ? Um no. She survived being completely split in half for hours and healed just fine. You also don't seem to understand that Kimmi pulling out his spinal cord is possible via his Kekkei Genkai. He just doesn't pull out bones and regenerate. His Kekkei Genkai allows him to do so without the need of advanced medical Ninjustu.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 19, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Ok so basically what we have is
> Itachi who can:
> -Use jutsu faster than Kimmimaro can react to.


Thats bullshit. Kimmi reacted fine to all of Naruto, Lee(who's taijutsu is superior to Itachi's), DRUNK Lee's and Gaara's attacks just fine. Please what jutsu can he use before Kimmi puts 4 bullets in his face. Kimmi can form bones and is unpredictable.



> -Clone Feint him into a C2 explosion, open him up or just guarantee Kimmi never touches him.


 Itachi has a C2 bomb?  Kimmi doesn't have to touch him, but can.



> -Physically move faster than Kimmi can/react better.


Again bullshit. Kimmi has shown to evade attacks that anyone not top tier would have a hard time against. You can say what the fuck you want, but Itachi would've been caught by Gaara before Kimmi was.

Itachi could barely keep up with KCM Naruto...Kimmi>KCM Naruto clone that was able to take down a multitude of opponents.



> -Kimmi's best hope is his bone dance, seeing as Itachi dodged Killer Bee's similarly unothrodox 7 sword dance, w/ no weapon, I'm positive Kimmi does nothing here.


And Bee forced Itachi to run away and use MS. Also Kimmi's bone dance>Bee's dance imo. Not to mention that Kimmi is able to form bones from wherever on his body. 



> Once again no one is answering how Kimmi keeps surviving extreme temperatures. He still has vital organs and still has water in his body, eventually his organs will shut down.


And we also don't have an answer to why he able to remove his spine and his body just magically heals itself(kinda of like Wolverwine).


Gaara wasn't able to crush him nor able to stop him. And wouldn't the bones act as a barrier to the heat? And what do you mean extreme temperatures. Itachi's Katon's are lolworthy at best.


Your not explaining how Itachi can survive bone forest, or put CS2 Kimmi down.




> So without CS it won't be the effective. Itachi has reacted to Mukai Tensei and the canonical bone forest. In this location he can easily shushin out of the way in time and fire a katon at Kimmo.


 No he reacted to a bone wall being put up.


Muki Tensei impaled Itachi multiple times...he may have seen it but wasn't able to react to it.



> Can he heal from multiple katons being fired and cooking him? Because he has nothing in his arsenal to stop Itachi just layering on his attacks. I don't think he has the regen you are thinking of just his KKG allows their bodies to do such.


And his KKG comes with an inherent healing power(though never stated). To pull his spine out means that he has some form of healing that is top-tier. Also in base he was through bones out of his fingers(yet no holes were left at the tip of his fingers), no gaping holes in his body where bones protruded from. From that alone a katon ain't doing shit...And Itachi's can't are slow compared to Gaara's gourd sand and Drunk Lee.

Give me a panel of Kimmi being hurt.

Dr. White.


Kimmi's shown the feats needed hit Itachi.


To say that he WON"T hit him at all and Itachi's lolworthy katons doing great damage or his weak ass exploding bunshin...oh but don't forget about the harmless crows who are weak, and the Shadow bunshin(not kage bunshin) that is just a diversion that Kimmi impales in .5 seconds.


But I will say ...Itachi....wait no... that Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and a manifestation of Susanoo will make some atleast Kage tier(I hope) but what is said is that without MS Itachi is barely jounin. While yet Kimmi in base is jounin.  He never even used his CS in Edo form from what i can find.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @stategoob.
> No. Kimmis regeneration isn't even close to that of Tsuande . Tsuandes best feat was what ? Regenerating a spine ? Um no. She survived being completely split in half for hours and healed just fine. You also don't seem to understand that Kimmi pulling out his spinal cord is possible via his Kekkei Genkai. He just doesn't pull out bones and regenerate. His Kekkei Genkai allows him to do so without the need of advanced medical Ninjustu.



What about the separated/damaged nerves, muscles, and skin, etc? they magically heal, whats so hard to understand about that.

And he's faced genjutsu before, a genjutsu expert named Tayuya(talking about Kimi here.


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## Veracity (Jul 19, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What about the separated/damaged nerves, muscles, and skin, etc? they magically heal, whats so hard to understand about that.
> 
> And he's faced genjutsu before, a genjutsu expert named Tayuya(talking about Kimi here.



What the hell are you talking about.


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## Garcher (Jul 19, 2014)

doubt that a little subordinate of Oro, who gets himself oneshoted by Itachi, can give Itachi a fight.

Itachi solos neg diff


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## Ersa (Jul 19, 2014)

> Sasuke is also physically stronger than Kimimaro and Itachi was shown able to restrain his Juin form with a Kage Bunshin.
> 
> In addition to that, Itachi fought an actual Sage Mode user in Kabuto and successfully parried him twice during a physical clash.


Itachi can control time, space and matter in the Tsukiyomi world so it wouldn't surprise me if he could restrain Sasuke while under Tsukiyomi. In a straight up strength contest I see CS2 Sasuke overpowering sickly Itachi.

Doesn't the SM point only aid Kimimaro since it proves a weaker opponent can hang with a stronger opponent? I suppose this also works for speed but I don't see the speed gap between Itachi and SM Kabuto being that big at all, if there even is a gap.



> Kimimaro gets his hands on Hidan and Hidan rapes him in the butt, and that's all that needs to be said about that; there's as much of a difference between them in physical strength as there is in speed.


The thing is Hidan lacks a way to increase his speed while Kimimaro can call on the Juin to increase his strength. Combine that with his bloodline and I think even if Hidan tries to brute force him the former can still come out ahead, I mean the Juin strength boost is fairly noticeable.



> The thing is, though, that wouldn't kill Hidan...


If decapitation can stop him outright I'd bank on his head getting torn to shreds having a similar effect.



> Sawarabi no Mai wouldn't kill Hidan, either, and it's not precise enough to completely restrain him.


If it impales him multiple times I don't see him escaping before Kimimaro goes logia and rips his head off with a senjutsu-boosted bone drill.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 20, 2014)

This is Kimi vs Itachi.

Why the fuck are yall bringing up Hidan?

@Eratz= Madara can do that with generic genjutsu.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 20, 2014)

Not gonna comment on scenerio one as kimmi is dieing almost as soon as the match starts, in scenerio 2 I dont see what he can do to itachi, drunk lee dodged all of his base attacks and im willing to bet itachi can do so much eaiser thanks to shushin and sharingon precog, 

basically it comes down to this if itachi flames can  Damage kimi or if kimi can outlast itachi, I see itachi winning as flames is diff then hard hitting your opponent and kimmi's durability never been shown to go beyond physical damage being punched and being crushed, itachi wins mid to high difficulty kimmi's only shot to win Is to outlast it would be hard to hit itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Not gonna comment on scenerio one as kimmi is dieing almost as soon as the match starts, in scenerio 2 I dont see what he can do to itachi, drunk lee dodged all of his base attacks and im willing to bet itachi can do so much eaiser thanks to shushin and sharingon precog,


YOu know, I wasn't going to argue and just wanted to see what people though...but its game time now.


From 100meters Itachi has nothing in his arsenal that hit that far away. If Itachi starts to close the distance, he will need some type of defense against the 10finger drilling bullet, which can pierce through Susanoos' armor if it could go through Gaara's sand(also the spinning gives it more accuracy, and damage).

But with intent to kill, Kimi will go all out and use bone forest which is GG, cause Itachi can't fly, and can't defend against it viably.





> basically it comes down to this if itachi flames can  Damage kimi or if kimi can outlast itachi, I see itachi winning as flames is diff then hard hitting your opponent and kimmi's durability never been shown to go beyond physical damage being punched and being crushed, itachi wins mid to high difficulty kimmi's only shot to win Is to outlast it would be hard to hit itachi.



Itachi's katons are weak, they have never shown any true burning potential. If what you say is true than his balsam nails should have torn through Bee, yet it didn't. Also Itachi's katons are no where near as fast and unpredictable as Drunk Lee, 100 Naruto clones, and Gaara's sand. Naruto couldn't even land a hit, Lee couldn't, drunk Lee barely managed to(but Kimi did get the better of him, which Gai couldn't even do), and Gaara couldn't stop him.

What about Kimi's inherent healing ability? He has shown healing capabilities that are good.

Kimi would easily hit Itachi. Kimi can extend the bones at will. That means if Itachi backs up 3 inches while Kimi does a spin, all Kimi has to do is increase their length by 4 inches and its GG.

Kimi's dances are unpredicatable. Its stated and through the mechanics Itachi can't continually dodge, he will get hit eventually.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> YOu know, I wasn't going to argue and just wanted to see what people though...but its game time now.




Oh liebe plz enlighten us ck



IchLiebe said:


> From 100meters Itachi has nothing in his arsenal that hit that far away. If Itachi starts to close the distance, he will need some type of defense against the 10finger drilling bullet, which can pierce through Susanoos' armor if it could go through Gaara's sand(also the spinning gives it more accuracy, and damage).



  liebe do you truly believe Chunin garras sand armor > Susano? plz say no even if you do.


Kimimaru doesn't fight long range bro, its been proven time and time again that he is a close range taijutsu fighter and itachi can dodge, tank, or just plow threw everything he has to offer with susano, Kimmi and itachi close the distance and kimmi can die in so many ways pick your poison, susano will rip his bones off his body, totsuka seals him, amatarasu will roast his bones, or genjutsu just rapes him.


His bullets made it threw garra's sand only to fall on the floor and not even hit garra, how is it going threw something that tanks attacks on a much larger scale, i would argue the bullets wouldn't do shyt to rib cage susano bro, as the bullets are nothing compared to raikages attacks.



IchLiebe said:


> But with intent to kill, Kimi will go all out and use bone forest which is GG, cause Itachi can't fly, and can't defend against it viably.



Itachi and sasuke already defended against a bone forest from sage kabuto in a cave, kimmi's bone forest isn't doing shyt



IchLiebe said:


> Itachi's katons are weak, they have never shown any true burning potential. If what you say is true than his balsam nails should have torn through Bee, yet it didn't. Also Itachi's katons are no where near as fast and unpredictable as Drunk Lee, 100 Naruto clones, and Gaara's sand. Naruto couldn't even land a hit, Lee couldn't, drunk Lee barely managed to(but Kimi did get the better of him, which Gai couldn't even do), and Gaara couldn't stop him.



Balsam nails and katon are two diff types of attacks, one is a shuriken covered in flames one is fire, itachi's katon made samhada complain about the heat and samehada is from a suiton user and the sword also absorbs chakra, kimmi doesn't absorb chakra and will be continuously burned if caught.

Itachi katons being faster or as fast as drunk lee is irrelevant when itachi himself is faster then drunk lee ,

 itachi is also faster then naruto and pre time skip garra's sand.

itachi's is faster then every character you just listed and has a sharingon to boot plz explain how kimmi isn't getting tag     



And this is when i stop taking your argument serious, do you really believe gai can't stop drunk lee if he approached him as a enemy and not as a student ? in all seriousness :S



IchLiebe said:


> What about Kimi's inherent healing ability?
> He has shown healing capabilities that are good.



Hes shown capabilities to fix broken bones that kind of goes hand and hand with his bone manipulation thats about it



IchLiebe said:


> Kimi would easily hit Itachi. Kimi can extend the bones at will. That means if Itachi backs up 3 inches while Kimi does a spin, all Kimi has to do is increase their length by 4 inches and its GG.



If kcm naruto and killer bee didn't land a hit on itachi then guess what  

base kimmimaru isn't landed a hit on itachi, even if you argue naruto wasn't going all out, killer bee damn sure was in there cqc exchange, he tried to swing his sword from behind when he was engaging naruto and used his seven sword style



IchLiebe said:


> Kimi's dances are unpredicatable. Its stated and through the mechanics Itachi can't continually dodge, he will get hit eventually.




He seem to avoid bee's seven sword dance just fine ? you believe kimmimaru to be more proficient in taijutsu then killer bee?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 20, 2014)

Considering Kimimaro was a character who actually couldn't fight at full potential due to his illness. Considering he was also able to keep up with KCM Naruto (who could've murderstomped Itachi if he was serious). We may have to consider that a healthy Kimimaro could do better than we think.
He was the only person other than Sasuke who could do partial transformations. 

Itachi only lost a little bit of speed and was coughing with his illness. Kimimaro was screwed thoroughly with his illness. Obviously Kimimaro's illness is a major factor to consider ITT.



Strategoob said:


> Are you arguing Itachi wasn't sick? Lol.​



He's pointing out that you guys *exaggerate* how the sickness affected Itachi.



Hijack said:


> As if Itachi himself was aware of all the jutsu Sasuke had in possession. Not only did he beat Sasuke, but also Orochimaru simultaneously. Even if Sasuke had intel on Susano'O, he would have had nothing to bypass Yata no Kagami; while Itachi, who had no knowledge at all in Kirin, managed to survive the attack filled with _murderous_ intent. Let alone that Itachi never used all of his jutsu, like Katon and Suiton variants.
> 
> As Obito said, if Itachi had been serious, Sasuke and Obito would've never had that conversation.​



He beat them under certain circumstances with a jutsu Sasuke didn't have knowledge on. Sasuke stomped all the jutsu that he had the knowledge on. 

He could've prepared something to bypass Susanoo as he did with Amaterasu. 

Itachi didn't use useless Katon/Suiton on Sasuke has they'd not work.

If Sasuke wanted, Itachi would die by Katon.


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi only lost a little bit of speed and was coughing with his illness. Kimimaro was screwed thoroughly with his illness. Obviously Kimimaro's illness is a major factor to consider ITT.


Because terminal illnesses are so variable right 

Because BZ didn't state Itachi looked like he was severly damaged before the fight right? 

Because coughing up massive amounts of blood and needing drugs to survive longer isn't indicative of a serious disease 

Because people with terminal illness IRL are outside fighting supersonic battles with fire, lightning bolts and massive amounts of strenuos activity right? 

You are the single most delusional poster on this forum granted you aren't attempting to troll (which may I add would be weak as fuck). 




> If Sasuke wanted, Itachi would die by Katon.


Yeah because Sasuke was the one throwing the fight to keep Itachi alive


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## Sadgoob (Jul 20, 2014)

*I Let You Win (Trope)*



> The player has just defeated The Dragon, or perhaps another servant of the Big Bad. While The Hero is quick to spare his enemy's life, he can take some satisfaction in knowing that he is, in fact, strong enough to take on the villainous forces that plague his world...at least until he finds out the truth.
> 
> You see, there was a reason why he won. This character was involved in some kind of plan, and part of the process required him to lose the battle. That's right! You're not as tough as you looked! Robbing you of the satisfaction of victory makes him just as much of a Magnificent Bastard as the fact that you have been unwittingly aiding his scheme!





> "In _Naruto_, this is stated to be the real reason why Sasuke could win against Itachi, who still completely dominated their fight and dropped dead right before he could finish the fight. To be clear,* this trope occurred when Itachi was terminally ill and almost legally blind, and even then, he pretty much beat Sasuke.* The man was too good for his own good.



The author went out of his way to stack the reasons that healthy Itachi was a beast, and yet Munboy still says what he says. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He's pointing out that you guys *exaggerate* how the sickness affected Itachi.



"Itachi should've been *much stronger than this*." As is not just stronger. But *much* stronger. He was attacking abnormally. Slower, and despite , he didn't take advantage of that to make an effective and accurate offense, _but a purposefully and deceptively ineffective offense_.​


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 20, 2014)

Kishi directly retconned itachi's performance hell kishi even retconned rock lee's performance against kimmimaru but he never stated kimmimaru's illness hindered him but thats none of my business tho


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## IchLiebe (Jul 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Oh liebe plz enlighten us ck
> 
> 
> 
> liebe do you truly believe Chunin garras sand armor > Susano? plz say no even if you do.


Skeletal Susanoo, yea. Not full Susanoo armor. What other than attacks designed to pierce(chidori) have pierced Gaara's sand?





> Kimimaru doesn't fight long range bro, its been proven time and time again that he is a close range taijutsu fighter and itachi can dodge, tank, or just plow threw everything he has to offer with susano, Kimmi and itachi close the distance and kimmi can die in so many ways pick your poison, susano will rip his bones off his body, totsuka seals him, amatarasu will roast his bones, or genjutsu just rapes him.


And Itachi doesn't fight from long range. Kimi has long range jutsu in bone forest and 10 finger drilling bullets. Totsuka won't hit, he has shown to be able to dodge attacks from various angles with ease. Something as big as totsuka ain't hitting. Amaterasu ain't hitting him and he can just throw a bone at Amaterasu and dissipate it. Itachi has shwon when he uses Amaterasu that a pressure wave is put out and people have shown to be able to coutner Amaterasu? WHo's gotten hit by Amaterasu? Hell Karin got hit by it, no damage, Samurai got hit no damage. Amaterasu is weak the only thing it has going for it is burning at a higher temp than regular katons and even still does nominal damage. 





> His bullets made it threw garra's sand only to fall on the floor and not even hit garra, how is it going threw something that tanks attacks on a much larger scale, i would argue the bullets wouldn't do shyt to rib cage susano bro, as the bullets are nothing compared to raikages attacks.


Oh really. Do you have scan to provide? Gaara's sand has shown to have a better defense than skeletal Susanoo. The raikages attack isn't piercing and Raikage couldn't get through a small layer of sand when he was laungching a killing attack. Also Gaara's sand has canonically stopped larger attacks than any Susanoo ever has. Ribcage isn't putting up much of a defense. I will say that skeletal Susanoo will be able to slow the bullets down drastically to where they can't do that much damage. But then again Itachi has a small chakra pool so he can just spam Susanoo. And Susanoo can't defend against bone forest at all.

Also the bullets do have a strong impact.
[1]

They shattered the sand that supposedly as strong as steel. Also look at Kimi casually dodging everything Gaara throws at him.





> Itachi and sasuke already defended against a bone forest from sage kabuto in a cave, kimmi's bone forest isn't doing shyt


No that was Kabuto trying to force them into a corner of which he did. He only used bone forest as wall to cut them off and you know that. A true bone forest(from an opponent with intent to kill(kabuto didn't)) wouldn't be able to be blocked by Susanoo.





> Balsam nails and katon are two diff types of attacks, one is a shuriken covered in flames one is fire, itachi's katon made samhada complain about the heat and samehada is from a suiton user and the sword also absorbs chakra, kimmi doesn't absorb chakra and will be continuously burned if caught.


And the MS summer is hot and deadly, yet not everyone dies. Who's been killed by a katon? A flaming shuriken is actually more power than grand fireball. Also was samahade critically injured?





> Itachi katons being faster or as fast as drunk lee is irrelevant when itachi himself is faster then drunk lee ,


But more predictable than druck Lee. Show some speed feats that suggest he is as quick as Lee. Itachi's katons are FUCKING SLOW.





> itachi is also faster then naruto and pre time skip garra's sand.


Yes but what I said was the KN Naruto clones couldn't hit him one fucking time, and Gaara had trouble catching him. Its harder to dodge 100 arrows, than 1 bullet. And Kimi was only using a bone sword to fend off them clones, and took 4 out at the same time with no diff. TO say that 1 Itachi that isn't all that fast(even though you think he is, yet no feats support that) isn't going to get hit is horse shit at best.



> itachi's is faster then every character you just listed and has a sharingon to boot plz explain how kimmi isn't getting tag


 And people can read attacks just fine without sharingan, Kimi has shown the capability to perceive a person's attack and shown the ability to counter. You must also be under the misconception that sharingan gives you precog which is bullshit to. Its gives one enhanced perception that can be tricked by using non-linear unpredictable attacks which Kimi excels at. His second dance is so fast that it leaves after images, so to say the sharingan can defend against every single one of his attacks is delusional.





> And this is when i stop taking your argument serious, do you really believe gai can't stop drunk lee if he approached him as a enemy and not as a student ? in all seriousness :S


Drunk Lee canonically knocked Gai out...take it for what you will, as well as Lee is a taijutsu expert and a master at the drunken fist technique. And your argument is:

Kimi won't never hit Itachi, Kimi can't do anything about Amaterasu, Susanoo, or katons. ALso did Tsunade's arms turn to liquid from Madara's(master of Katons, puts Itachi's to shame) katon? No, she couldn't even fucking heal either.

More or less your say that anything Kimi does is useless while everything Itachi does is fruitful, yet Lee stated that Kimi doesn't waste a single move. If he makes a move its to open you up and attack the opening.

Im not even going to argue S2, as Kimi takes that the first time they go into CQC and without knowledge Itachi would be fucked.





> Hes shown capabilities to fix broken bones that kind of goes hand and hand with his bone manipulation thats about it


So the holes that the bone come out of, just stay there with blood spilling out? What about the nervous system of the spinal cord he ripped out? he can also destroy bones by using his KG.

Here you can see his fingers are split open...how did they heal? they aren't bone...
[1]

[1]

Look at all this blood
[1]

And look at all the skin missing and the gaping holes.
[1]
l





> If kcm naruto and killer bee didn't land a hit on itachi then guess what


KCM naruto wasn't trying against Itachi, he was talking...maybe a spar but not a fight. Against Bee, Itachi got his shit wrecked and Bee reacted fine and pushed Itachi back and forced him to use MS. And the KCM Naruto clone that went up against Kimi specifically stated "Its going to be different than last time"...well it wasn't. Also remember that the KCM Clones were wrecking kages left and right and giving anyone they encountered a hell of a fight. Yet Itachi couldn't land a solid hit on a KCM Naruto. Naruto didn't even attempt a rasengan or any form of attack against Itachi. Bee pushed him back easily.


> base kimmimaru isn't landed a hit on itachi, even if you argue naruto wasn't going all out, killer bee damn sure was in there cqc exchange, he tried to swing his sword from behind when he was engaging naruto and used his seven sword style


And? you act like that some special feat that no one else that has moderate reactions can't achieve. And Naruto went all out against Kimmi without any success.





> He seem to avoid bee's seven sword dance just fine ? you believe kimmimaru to be more proficient in taijutsu then killer bee?


Yea, didn't do anything spectacular and knew that he wasn't bout to be wrecked thus had to run away and use MS. Now if Itachi would've forced him into going Bijuu mode or v2 then I would say Itachi was pressuring him, but Itachi didn't force Bee no more than Taka did.

Yes Kimi would absolutely wreck be in CQC just because of how unpredictable Kimi's KG is.

You have nothing to suggest that Itachi can land a hit on Kimi, especially given his performance of dodging Gaaras sand while continually attacking. Then you have given nothing other than conjecture on how Itachi can put him down. With full intel Tsukuyomi is a non-factor, he will be expecting Amaterasu(as shown with Obito a projectile can counter it just fine) and Totsuka ain't landing. To slow and has only shown to be able to hit characters that just stand there(Orochimaru tried to tank it, but thats because he had no knowledge of Totsuka being wielded by Itachi)


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## IchLiebe (Jul 20, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Kishi directly retconned itachi's performance hell kishi even retconned rock lee's performance against kimmimaru but he never stated kimmimaru's illness hindered him but thats none of my business tho



? WTF is wrong with you. Didn't hinder his performance? Kabuto specifically stated that "HE SHOULDN"T EVEN BE ABLE TO MOVE" let alone fight. He was moving on willpower alone.  Yet ITachi...Ive never seen proof that his illness hindered him. Did he die because of illness?No he died due to chakra exhaustion and Kimi is the only fucking person in this entire manga to die because of illness.


Also Kimi's body structure is different than normal shinobis as that is why Kabuto couldn't find a suitable method for curing him.


Itachi's illness was what? Headaches, low chakra, and coughing up blood. Well headaches come from using Tsukuyomi and he never showed it until after using Tsukuyomi. Coughing up blood is a direct link with using Susanoo(see Sasuke in the Kage summit arc), and Itachi just has a low chakra pool.

Itachi could've beaten Sasuke if he had just a little bit more chakra, and most of their CQC skirmish was in a genjutsu, and going by what Madara was able to do with generic genjustu I can legitimately state that those feats are ineligible. Sasuke was able to counter all of Itachi's attacks except Susanoo.


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ? WTF is wrong with you. Didn't hinder his performance? Kabuto specifically stated that "HE SHOULDN"T EVEN BE ABLE TO MOVE" let alone fight. He was moving on willpower alone.  Yet ITachi...Ive never seen proof that his illness hindered him. Did he die because of illness?No he died due to chakra exhaustion and Kimi is the only fucking person in this entire manga to die because of illness.
> 
> 
> Also Kimi's body structure is different than normal shinobis as that is why Kabuto couldn't find a suitable method for curing him.



You have problems.

 You are using Kabuto's verbal recognition of Kimmo's sickness as physical proof of his sickness. I don't recall Kimmo spitting up blood and hacking up a lung mid battle. Itachi showed way more signs of disease physically, and we had Tobi confirm he was sick, and Zetsu offer that he looked extremely injured in his performance before the fight.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You have problems.
> 
> You are using Kabuto's verbal recognition of Kimmo's sickness as physical proof of his sickness. I don't recall Kimmo spitting up blood and hacking up a lung mid battle. Itachi showed way more signs of disease physically, and we had Tobi confirm he was sick, and Zetsu offer that he looked extremely injured in his performance before the fight.



And we only have Zetsu's statement for Itachi.

Kabuto is a high tier medical nin. If he says someone has a debilitating disease than they do.


Zetsu was just a unimpressed by Itachi's performance and thought he should've done better.

When has Itachi ever coughed up blood before using Susanoo? Never. Hacking a lung up? I don't recall that.


On the other hand Kimi DIED due to his sickness and even said in the Gaara fight that he didn't have much longer? 


You just choose to ignore manga fact and use conjecture to prove your point. 

And the fact is that if both were sick...Kimi was the only one to die due to illness in this ENTIRE MANGA SO FAR.


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And we only have Zetsu's statement for Itachi.


And Tobi's statement...



> Kabuto is a high tier medical nin. If he says someone has a debilitating disease than they do.


Cool story. Zetsu didn't know Itachi was sick but his description of Itachi being debilitated prove Tobi telling Sasuke Itachi was sick. That's two sources, one who directly watched the battle and one who just knew about Itachi.




> Zetsu was just a unimpressed by Itachi's performance and thought he should've done better.


If that is what you got from what the Zetsu's were saying you can't read properly. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.



> When has Itachi ever coughed up blood before using Susanoo? Never. Hacking a lung up? I don't recall that.


I'm really starting to believe you haven't fully read the Itachi fight or just consciously block out anything you don't want to admit.








> On the other hand Kimi DIED due to his sickness and even said in the Gaara fight that he didn't have much longer?


Itachi also died of his sickness. He had to use drugs to stay alive indicating he went on past his normal life expectancy, he clenched his fucking heart and spat out blood, like what more do you need?



> You just choose to ignore manga fact and use conjecture to prove your point.


No that is exactly what you are doing hence why I opened up labeling you delusional.



> And the fact is that if both were sick...Kimi was the only one to die due to illness in this ENTIRE MANGA SO FAR.


Kimmi and Itachi.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Skeletal Susanoo, yea. Not full Susanoo armor. What other than attacks designed to pierce(chidori) have pierced Gaara's sand?And Itachi doesn't fight from long range. Kimi has long range jutsu in bone forest and 10 finger drilling bullets. Totsuka won't hit, he has shown to be able to dodge attacks from various angles with ease. Something as big as totsuka ain't hitting. Amaterasu ain't hitting him and he can just throw a bone at Amaterasu and dissipate it. Itachi has shwon when he uses Amaterasu that a pressure wave is put out and people have shown to be able to coutner Amaterasu? WHo's gotten hit by Amaterasu? Hell Karin got hit by it, no damage, Samurai got hit no damage. Amaterasu is weak the only thing it has going for it is burning at a higher temp than regular katons and even still does nominal damage. Oh really. Do you have scan to provide? Gaara's sand has shown to have a better defense than skeletal Susanoo. The raikages attack isn't piercing and Raikage couldn't get through a small layer of sand when he was laungching a killing attack. Also Gaara's sand has canonically stopped larger attacks than any Susanoo ever has. Ribcage isn't putting up much of a defense. I will say that skeletal Susanoo will be able to slow the bullets down drastically to where they can't do that much damage. But then again Itachi has a small chakra pool so he can just spam Susanoo. And Susanoo can't defend against bone forest at all.



Stopped taking you serious at, he can just throw a bone at amatarasu   

What feats does kimmimaru have to suggest he can react to amatarasu after it is casted and throw a bone at the fire all before he's tagged? he's not a sensor and has a 4.5 in speed, plz try harder.

a senjutsu enhanced bone forest being canonically stopped by susano Ten Ten explain

your literally trying to sweep actual manga events under the rug.


You can't even prove kimi can fight a opponent without looking at there upper body, he's so far outclassed in scenario one but because its itachi you will continue to make up your own reasons and dismiss the manga because you don't wanna acknowledge the strength of a character u dislike



IchLiebe said:


> Also the bullets do have a strong impact.
> Ten Ten explain



Based on what not piercing pre time skip garras shield? 



IchLiebe said:


> They shattered the sand that supposedly as strong as steel. Also look at Kimi casually dodging everything Gaara throws at him.No that was Kabuto trying to force them into a corner of which he did. He only used bone forest as wall to cut them off and you know that. A true bone forest(from an opponent with intent to kill(kabuto didn't)) wouldn't be able to be blocked by Susanoo.And the MS summer is hot and deadly, yet not everyone dies. Who's been killed by a katon? A flaming shuriken is actually more power than grand fireball. Also was samahade critically injured?But more predictable than druck Lee. Show some speed feats that suggest he is as quick as Lee. Itachi's katons are FUCKING SLOW.Yes but what I said was the KN Naruto clones couldn't hit him one fucking time, and Gaara had trouble catching him. Its harder to dodge 100 arrows, than 1 bullet. And Kimi was only using a bone sword to fend off them clones, and took 4 out at the same time with no diff. TO say that 1 Itachi that isn't all that fast(even though you think he is, yet no feats support that) isn't going to get hit is horse shit at best.



Based on what? what do you base your statements on? how would a bone forest with killing intent not be stopped by susano when it was already canonically stopped by susano? why would kabuto hold back on a edo zombie? 

No because sahmada absorbs chakra and he dispelled the technique by absorbing the chakra, for the little bit of time he made contact with the technique it burned him.



 bro base lee had a 4 in speed back in part 1 and he also was injured and fresh out the hospital plz don't make me refute the obvious, sasuke who was about = to a non injured weightless lee in speed got his chidori caught by itachi with one hand 


itachi has constantly showed he has a very fast shushin and extremely fast jutsu execution and hand seals that not even a sharingon could follow, but because you don't like itachi you will find a way to say kimmimaru can follow it even tho multiple sharingon users couldn't .

He also blitz 3 3tome sharingon wielding police officers but ok.

Itachi shushin also surprised bee with his speed on multiple occasions but ok even tho he got a 5 in speed he slower then injured weighted base rock lee makes perfect sense somehow 




ck




IchLiebe said:


> And people can read attacks just fine without sharingan, Kimi has shown the capability to perceive a person's attack and shown the ability to counter. You must also be under the misconception that sharingan gives you precog which is bullshit to. Its gives one enhanced perception that can be tricked by using non-linear unpredictable attacks which Kimi excels at. His second dance is so fast that it leaves after images, so to say the sharingan can defend against every single one of his attacks is delusional.Drunk Lee canonically knocked Gai out...take it for what you will, as well as Lee is a taijutsu expert and a master at the drunken fist technique. And your argument is:



Here we go again with going against manga canon, reread vote sasuke and naruto fight and pay attention to when sasuke first obtains 3 tome.

im not gonna bother educating you on the manga as if it wasn't a big thing kishi wouldn't have made it so, learn how to para phrase and learn how to determine what the narrator is trying to say, just because you want something to be true doesn't make it so.

Because gai was really trying to fight lee for drinking his sake 



IchLiebe said:


> Kimi won't never hit Itachi, Kimi can't do anything about Amaterasu, Susanoo, or katons. ALso did Tsunade's arms turn to liquid from Madara's(master of Katons, puts Itachi's to shame) katon? No, she couldn't even fucking heal either.
> 
> More or less your say that anything Kimi does is useless while everything Itachi does is fruitful, yet Lee stated that Kimi doesn't waste a single move. If he makes a move its to open you up and attack the opening.
> 
> ...



ok now your just reciting what you want to so at this point so ill ask you a simple question, did bee touch itachi or land any significant hits on him during there exchange? the answer is no bingo base kimmimaru isn't casually doing what bee couldn't do unless you believe base kimmimaru to be above bee in taijutsu and kenjutsu.



IchLiebe said:


> Yea, didn't do anything spectacular and knew that he wasn't bout to be wrecked thus had to run away and use MS. Now if Itachi would've forced him into going Bijuu mode or v2 then I would say Itachi was pressuring him, but Itachi didn't force Bee no more than Taka did.



so many things is flawed with this, are we forgetting kabuto had control of itachi and nagato? and itachi and bee had more of a = equal exchange where as sasuke got hurt badly the first time he attempted to take bee head on. for some reason you believe kimmimaru will casually do what be couldn't .



IchLiebe said:


> Yes Kimi would absolutely wreck be in CQC just because of how unpredictable Kimi's KG is.



 bee is  very skillful in cqc, has samhada is a perfect jin, has seven sword style, has feats I'm beating a sharingon person in base already and sparred/trained with the raikage but kimmi is better u right bro



IchLiebe said:


> You have nothing to suggest that Itachi can land a hit on Kimi, especially given his performance of dodging Gaaras sand while continually attacking. Then you have given nothing other than conjecture on how Itachi can put him down. With full intel Tsukuyomi is a non-factor, he will be expecting Amaterasu(as shown with Obito a projectile can counter it just fine) and Totsuka ain't landing. To slow and has only shown to be able to hit characters that just stand there(Orochimaru tried to tank it, but thats because he had no knowledge of Totsuka being wielded by Itachi)



Sasuke and lee also both casually dodged garra's sand and itachi's faster then both of them, for some reason you believe itachi to be slower then part 1 lee and sasuke and if this is the case i rather stop here as there is truly no arguing with you, your like a child yelling over somebody desperately trying to get your point across and your ignoring manga canon, when you have scans to back your claims then come back and debate me.


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## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> And Tobi's statement...
> 
> 
> Cool story. Zetsu didn't know Itachi was sick but his description of Itachi being debilitated prove Tobi telling Sasuke Itachi was sick. That's two sources, one who directly watched the battle and one who just knew about Itachi.


And? That doesn't mean anything. He might've had a cold, but ninja Aids...not sure.





> If that is what you got from what the Zetsu's were saying you can't read properly. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.


I can read just fucking fine, you on the other hand can't comprehend shit from gold.





> I'm really starting to believe you haven't fully read the Itachi fight or just consciously block out anything you don't want to admit.


Read every bit, on the other hand I don't believe any of you have read the kimi fight.



>


Can you post the LINKS to the chapter that why I can go back a page or two and show that Itachi used Susanoo before.

Also notice in the second page where he is holding his eye, leading me to believe it was a drawback to using MS. Coughing up blood goes hand in hand with Susanoo when being used by someone with MS.





> Itachi also died of his sickness. He had to use drugs to stay alive indicating he went on past his normal life expectancy, he clenched his fucking heart and spat out blood, like what more do you need?


No he died due to chakra exhaustion. Kimi died due to illness. Didn't he die from putting Amaterasu into Sasuke then face planted the wall...chakra exhaustion.





> No that is exactly what you are doing hence why I opened up labeling you delusional.
> 
> 
> Kimmi and Itachi.


Calling the kettle black are we?


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## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

*My Last Post to ICHLIEBE ever cause you are crazy*



IchLiebe said:


> And? That doesn't mean anything. He might've had a cold, but ninja Aids...not sure.I can read just fucking fine, you on the other hand can't comprehend shit from gold.Read every bit, on the other hand I don't believe any of you have read the kimi fight.


Ok so now you are admitting to trolling? Tobi states he was terminally Ill, and had to use medicine to stay alive. The effects were verified by Zetsu who was commentator. 

It's on the panel for you, do you need to grab a family member to assist in your comprehension? go ahead take your time.

Burden on proof is on you, not that I'd expect you to be able to comprehend somehting as such.



> Can you post the LINKS to the chapter that why I can go back a page or two and show that Itachi used Susanoo before.


We have seen Sasuke suffer from extreme usage and he did not show effects Itachi did. Itachi had a fucking heart attack mid panel for fucks sake, and was explicitly mentioned to be sick.



> Also notice in the second page where he is holding his eye, leading me to believe it was a drawback to using MS.


He is holding his mouth and throwing up blood which is clearly illustrated in the panel and hence why the Sound effects for cough are present.

Insert 50 cents and try again.




> Coughing up blood goes hand in hand with Susanoo when being used by someone with MS.No he died due to chakra exhaustion. Kimi died due to illness. Didn't he die from putting Amaterasu into Sasuke then face planted the wall...chakra exhaustion.


-No it doesn't. Itachi had extreme chest problems and chest pains, and was mentined to be deathly ill. burden of proof is on you .

Kimmimaro died from his sickness which was sped up by using a shit ton of chakra and cursed seal, same with Itachi who sped up his death by sickness by using MS and fighting Hebi Sasuke without killing intent.

This is the reason people with terminal illnesses lay in hospital beds and don't fight in wars and do strenuous things.

It's the same thing you're to blinded by bias to see.


> Calling the kettle black are we?


you didn't even properly use the expression 

good note to go out on IchLiebe


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## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Stopped taking you serious at, he can just throw a bone at amatarasu


Yep and the mechanics of both projectiles confirm this. Sasuke tried to use Amaterasu vs Obito and he just threw a projectile and made Amaterasu dissipate. This is how I know you are delusional, you openly reject facts and feats if it doesn't support Itachi.





> What feats does kimmimaru have to suggest he can react to amatarasu after it is casted and throw a bone at the fire all before he's tagged? he's not a sensor and has a 4.5 in speed, plz try harder.


Bee did the same thing yet his sword was able to cross a large distance before the MS jutsu was cast. Kimi can expel bones from wherever on his body instantly. 

Was Sasuke a sensor? No, did he have knowledge of Amaterasu? No, does he ever have a speed stat over 4.5? No, in the 3rd databook Sasuke has a speed of 4.5, while DB2(If IM not mistaken was after the Itachi fight) he had a 3.5. Yety was able to run away from Amaterasu and Itachi missed a couple of shots. And you will now say Itachi wasn't trying to hit Sasuke, but then proceed to incinerate more than half of Sasuke's body in hope that he had a way to regenerate his body.



> a senjutsu enhanced bone forest being canonically stopped by susano [1]
> 
> your literally trying to sweep actual manga events under the rug.


Yet Boneforest didn't pop up underneath them, and was no where near the scale of the one Kimi used by himself. Also wasn't senjutsu powered or it would've been Senpo Swarabi no Mai. Also I was right about he wasn't using it to attack them but back them into a corner. Im saying that Susanoo can't defend against swarabi no mai, not destroy its bones.





> You can't even prove kimi can fight a opponent without looking at there upper body, he's so far outclassed in scenario one but because its itachi you will continue to make up your own reasons and dismiss the manga because you don't wanna acknowledge the strength of a character u dislike
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

You also haven't commented on Kimmimaru's magical healing ability. Nor have you proven that Totsuka is quicker than Gaara's sand or Lee's attacks.


You''ve posted 1 scan. Im not going to post the entire Kimi fight. Your just as able as I am to read that fight. But if you want me to post the entire fight and pick it apart piece by panel...I will. But I have asked many times for Itachi's speed feats and reaction feats that suggest he can handle someone of Kimi's capabilities, which are unpredictable.

Amaterasu- Can be dissipated, and evaded.
Susanoo- Can be evaded, and bypassed.
Katons- Get the fuck outta here

Every CQC situation Itachi has ever been in, he doesn't excel. The only time is against Sasuke, and in their main fight that was genjutsu which means that isn't able to be provided as evidence for any feat other than genjutsu.

The Bee fight specifically shows that Itachi can't handle multiple unpredictable attacks except for a second or two before having to retreat.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Ok so now you are admitting to trolling? Tobi states he was terminally Ill, and had to use medicine to stay alive. The effects were verified by Zetsu who was commentator.
> 
> It's on the panel for you, do you need to grab a family member to assist in your comprehension? go ahead take your time.
> 
> Burden on proof is on you, not that I'd expect you to be able to comprehend somehting as such.


Prove what Kimi was sick? Itachi wasn't? Itachi wasn't as sick as what you suggest and you have no proof that it inhibited his abilities. Zetsu commented that he should've dodge the rigged shuriken, yet Tsukuyomi use made him slower and was mid air when the shuriken split, and Itachi has no form of evading in that situation.





> We have seen Sasuke suffer from extreme usage and he did not show effects Itachi did. Itachi had a fucking heart attack mid panel for fucks sake, and was explicitly mentioned to be sick.


Yes Sasuke has had headaches from using MS Genjutsu, eye bleeding from Amaterasu(enton), and coughing up blood from using Susanoo.

He had a heart attack? Thats not an illness. Congestive heart failure could be related to certain illnesses, but still doesn't prove it. And i love how you stated that he died, clenching his heart. When he died poking Sasuke in his forehead and implanting Amaterasu into Sasuke, which leads me to believe that he died of chakra exhaustion as there is more evidence to that than a heart attack. By two characters that aren't adept in medical ninjutsu(or ever been shown to be), yet two characters with an adept knowledge of medical ninjutsu declared that Kimi was sick, was lying on his deathbed prior to leaving for the battlefield, commented that his time was about up, and straight up apparent as day died mid attack.

Yet its my comprehension that is being questioned.





> He is holding his mouth and throwing up blood which is clearly illustrated in the panel and hence why the Sound effects for cough are present.


Effects of Susanoo, its been proven. And even holding his eye...sorry but when I cough extremely bad, the last thing Im holding is my head.


> -No it doesn't. Itachi had extreme chest problems and chest pains, and was mentined to be deathly ill. burden of proof is on you .


No the burden of proof that he had chest problems and chest pains are on you. Im not going to look through the entire fucking manga for something that isn't there. Your alleging that he had chest pains, died of a heart attack...those are your allegations, thus the burden is on you. I have the benefit of assumption and thus the burden gets laid onto you. I will agree that Itachi was sick thus my allegation that he wasn't is put out, but you are alleging that his sickness was the reason he died, and that it inhibited his abilities.





> Kimmimaro died from his sickness which was sped up by using a shit ton of chakra and cursed seal, same with Itachi who sped up his death by sickness by using MS and fighting Hebi Sasuke without killing intent.


yet died due to chakra exhaustion. Or else would've dropped like Kimi did, but instead he walked up to Sasuke, poked his head(implanted Amaterasu which took chakra) then collapsed.

Using jutsu was never stated to speed up the death of the characters unless it was through chakra exhaustion...the burden of proof here is on you.



> This is the reason people with terminal illnesses lay in hospital beds and don't fight in wars and do strenuous things.


Yet Kimi did exactly that and was going to die regardless. He shouldn't have even been able to leave. Yet I never seen Itachi taking medicine or hooked up to medical devices such as Kimi was.





> It's the same thing you're to blinded by bias to see.
> 
> you didn't even properly use the expression
> 
> good note to go out on IchLiebe


lol yea I did.

Its.

"the kettle is calling the pot black".

And I used it in a way which is suitable and understandable to many "Callin the kettle black" It doesn't matter if I put pot or kettle as both are black thus can be put in place of the other in any situation.


Please I hope you don't respond to me with your bullshit anymore.  Your biased and delusional.

I am bias, but at the same time I tried for a month to argue for Itachi and I had to make shit up, ignore manga, and many things that Itachi fans continually do to support Itachi, and even then I would admit to myself that there is no way in hell Itachi would win, but I argued despite that because I wanted to prove to myself that it isn't Itachi but the people making the arguments. And I came to the conclusion that Itachi sucks dick and his fans are delusional about his abilities and other characters.


----------



## Psp123789 (Jul 21, 2014)

Scenario 1 is a comical stomp. Not much else to say besides Kimmi is never touching a high kage lvl(SM naruto, killer bee, minato,ect). The idea alone is laughable. Unfortunately for him itachi is in that category.

Scenario 2 is debatable, leaning towards kimmi since itach doesn't have genjutsu.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jul 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yep and the mechanics of both projectiles confirm this. Sasuke tried to use Amaterasu vs Obito and he just threw a projectile and made Amaterasu dissipate. This is how I know you are delusional, you openly reject facts and feats if it doesn't support Itachi.Bee did the same thing yet his sword was able to cross a large distance before the MS jutsu was cast. Kimi can expel bones from wherever on his body instantly.



Scans please and you know kimmimaru does not have obito's reactions or his sharingon right?



IchLiebe said:


> Was Sasuke a sensor? No, did he have knowledge of Amaterasu? No, does he ever have a speed stat over 4.5? No, in the 3rd databook Sasuke has a speed of 4.5, while DB2(If IM not mistaken was after the Itachi fight) he had a 3.5. Yety was able to run away from Amaterasu and Itachi missed a couple of shots. And you will now say Itachi wasn't trying to hit Sasuke, but then proceed to incinerate more than half of Sasuke's body in hope that he had a way to regenerate his body.



Sasuke got the luxury to see amatarasu before hand and he started running before the jutsu was casted, itachi was also not trying to actively kill sasuke kimmimaru obviously wont have these luxuries.



IchLiebe said:


> Yet Boneforest didn't pop up underneath them, and was no where near the scale of the one Kimi used by himself. Also wasn't senjutsu powered or it would've been Senpo Swarabi no Mai. Also I was right about he wasn't using it to attack them but back them into a corner. Im saying that Susanoo can't defend against swarabi no mai, not destroy its bones.



scans of it being stated or its just a silly assumption to fit your argument? scans show the bone forest being cut down i rather not get into a tireless debate about what you think happened and what actually happened because quite frankly I'm going to side with what actually happened and what the author showed me.

the forest can be dodged or cut down.

i can also show you scans of people in sage mode using techniques and not saying senpo in front of it.




IchLiebe said:


> Upper body=/= eye contact.



The manga is quite clear on the measures everybody took when they fought itachi another point I'm not gonna bother debating on as its already manga canon, you don't get to just override kishi's statements and replace them with your own.



IchLiebe said:


> Kimi far outclasses Itachi in both scenarios but because its Itachi you will continue to make up your own reasons and dismiss the manga because you don't want to acknowledge the weakness of a character that you LOVE.The did pierce it. And that proves that it might be able to get through Susanoo's ribcage. Also depends if Kimi chooses to use the hardest bone in his body with gives it more piercing abilities.Because Sasuke was next to him and give Bone forest's 200 meter diameter. He didn't want to kill Sasuke so throwing something with a huge AOE and killing capability wouldn't have been wise on Kabuto's part except for in hindsight.



someone sure is ignoring manga canon but it isn't me  

Rib cage susano >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre time skip garra's shield

rib cage susano was tanking raikkages strikes incase you missed it.

_Link_

garra is unharmed and it was no where near one of his more powerful shields, and the bullets aren't even fast enough to make it around his sand shield, itachi will easily dodge or ribcage susano and the bullets aren't doing shyt.

look at how thin the sand shield is i mean seriously


kabuto could just make the bones come under itachi and not sasuke yet he didn't?



IchLiebe said:


> It canonically destroyed a bone wall.



Ok ?




IchLiebe said:


> Bone forest with killing intent from an alive full fledged Kimi would come right under Susanoo and impale Itachi. Itachi has already shown that he can't defend against an attack with a large AoE and piercing capabilities(Muki Tensei)
> And? Samehada just commented on how it burned. Not that it was melting him away like you suggest it can do against Kimi.And? I didn't see Sasuke use that speed to make an opening. He screamed out loud and rushed in and got his hand broke. He did exactly what Kimi doesn't do.Kimi doesn't have to follow the handseals(he doesn't copy, and can tank damn near anything) and his KG doesn't use handseals. Fast shunshin? Link plz.



Based on what? Muki Tensei is not Bone forest.

Because he absorbed the chakra and dispelled the technique before it could do more damage kimmimaru cannot absorb chakra.

Chidori requires some speed to use it to say sasuke didn't use his speed is once again ignoring manga canon, he certainly didn't charge his chidori and walk up to itachi.


Its to show you  how wrong your silly notion is that itachi can't keep up with injured weighted rock lee speed or he's not as fast.


Then kimmi will always be surprised every time itachi cast's a jutsu on him.


a 30 percent shouten itachi was fast enough to engage kakashi in cqc here he clearly reacts and dodges kakashi punch and then counters 

_Link_


hes also fast enough to cast this jutsu without heibi sasuke realizing _Link_

here he dodges bee attack without even looking at him _Link_

he also gets behind bee and dodges bee's swing again and he also got behind kakashi back in part 1 he has feats and the data book stat to back up his speed.



IchLiebe said:


> Just because you like Itachi you won't give anyone any credit despite them being better than Itachi. Thats why u have to bring up meaningless shit like handseal speed.Proof any of them had 3 tomoe? And they were fodder. Raikagnaut fought 100,000 enemies for days, yet 1 naruto clone defeated him...see what happened...Fodder=/=named characters. Gaara had never been hit before the chunin exams and stomped everyone he went up against...yet Kimi would have killed him and Lee...easily. The only thing that pushed kimi was his time limit.What when he jumped into the air? Please provide a scan where he got the better of Bee...PLEASE.



thats a rather silly thing to say, because i like itachi i have to dislike everybody else? i have a list of characters i actually like and won't be bias against, kakashi, gai, madara, hashi, orochimaru, naruto, garra, shikimaru, why would i not give anyone else credit simply because i like itachi? you on the other don't like itachi so its rather obvious your not giving him credit, the fact that you have him mention in your profile shows ur bias and landed you in the location where you said you wasn't on.

Whether you want them to matter or not is irrelevant as hand seal speed matters its just something you can't refute and you chose to call it meaningless because of that.


_Link_

there you go tho his top tomoe is hidden by his hair and we all know 2 tomoe sharingon doesn't result in both tomes being placed at the bottom of the eye.

And we all know raikage is a speed beast and stamina beast so that just adds to his feats it doesn't mean it wasn't a great feat of his just cuz they where fodder.

you are attempting to downplay itachi's speed and I'm showing u beating 3 police offers with 3 tomoe  sharingon using taijutsu should show you he's not slow but actually fast this along with his data book stat.

He got behind bee and surprised bee a few times, the end result of the fight is neither of them ended up hitting each other, while bee beat sasuke and this sasuke is tiers superior to drunk lee the same drunk lee who was tagging kimmimaru, now i normally don't use abc logic, but seeing how all the skirmishes where describing here uses taijutsu and kenjutsu i feel its appropriate.



IchLiebe said:


> I didn't say he was slower, but his taijutsu isn't as good as Lee's. Itachi has movement speed, but not attack speed like you are suggesting.And look how the 3 tomoe couldn't do shit against something that is unpredictable in its nature...which Kimi's KG is.



you said prove he's as fast as rock lee don't back pedal now because you where proven wrong.

 rock lee's taijutsu was a 3.5 back in part 1 itachi's is a 4.5 he's also faster and he has sharingon to boot.



IchLiebe said:


> But for him to knock Gai out and no one was able to stop him? Means that Lee got the better of him. I remember in that one filler that Lee and Gai fought they entered the Gates against each other. Gai is also rather rough on Lee and wouldn't refrain from beating his ass, so I don't see Gai letting him whip his ass all over the cafe.



i can probably knock out mike tyson if i hit him while he's not expecting it and throw all my weight behind the punch, doesn't mean he won't beat my ass if we where to fight, gai disciplines lee but never fights him as a serious enemy and if you wanna talk anime the anime retconned this and gai said he could stop lee if he approached him as a enemy.



IchLiebe said:


> Yet Kishi did specifically that. Gai freaked the fuck out when he noticed he had Sake instead of medicine.



yet kishi didn't specifically say anything your mentioning in your entire argument but ok? you either believe gai approached his student as a enemy and got knocked out or he didn't approach him as a enemy and got knocked out i tend to believe the latter but your open to believe what you like.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Jul 21, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Im the one doing the educating and your the class clown that won't stfu and listen.And I DO BELIEVE THAT KIMI>BEE IN CQC, TAIJUTSU, AND KENJUTSU.








Based on what? i don't understand why would base  kimmimaru would be above bee when he has trouble with drunk lee, and bee effortlessly beat sasuke while sasuke had back up, a sword, and 3 tomoe sharingon to boot, not to mention taka sasuke is faster and better at taijutsu and kenjutsu then pre time skip lee both feat wise and data book wise.

bee also did this in base _Link_



IchLiebe said:


> Did Itachi land a significant blow on Naruto or Bee? No, yet Kimi was able to defeat a KCM Naruto clone who specifically stated that it would be different than there last encounter(mind you these KCM Clones were doing some damage defeated a high-kage tier opponent).
> Yet they were moving on their own and Kabuto wasn't controlling them. He had to manage hundreds of Edo's, also he didn't know their arsenal as well as them so why would he control them fully and not be able to use their most deadly justu efficiently...Its done been stated that Edo's are able to move and act on their own accord and that the caster will just take away their personalities so that they use their own jutsu on their own accord but without hesitation. I guess your saying that Kabuto was controlling all edo's 100% and was casting the jutsu instead of them being on Auto-pilot. The only thing Kabuto did was force him to use MS against Naruto whom was already in a difficult situation instead of Bee who was alone and in a good situation.Yet Bee wasn't being pressured, fended off everything Itachi threw at him with ease and forced Itachi into a long range fight.



Scans of the kimmi and naruto fight

if itachi and nagato was acting on there on accord they wouldn't fight naruto and bee.

Nobody was in a difficult situation, the scans shows the ninja's basically stalemating in base nobody got hit nobody got hurt, if kabuto had itachi engage bee in base again the same exact thing would happen thus why he upped the anti and had itachi activate his ms and go for the kill, not because he was pressured, stalemating and losing a fight is 2 diff things, had itachi been hit your argument may hold little weight but the fact is itachi wasn't even hit had itachi felt pressured in the slightest he would have at least used ribcage susano, but he simply backed up and avoided the move.

you just argued itachi fights close range and now you want to argue bee forced him into a long range fight your starting to contradict yourself, dodging bee's seven sword attack and activating ms doesn't mean itachi decided to fight long range, as he could of just jumped back in close and started to use his ms techniques.





IchLiebe said:


> Atleast Taka forced him into V2, something Itachi couldn't manage to do. And the only thing that was different was Itachi knew he was outclassed and withdrew, Sasuke on the other hand was trying to handle the onslaught. Yes Kimi has massively more swords/spikes than Bee did and is more unpredictable.Yep, the only thing that puts Bee above Kimi is raiton flow, and bijuu transformation. Just because Kimi never fought someone with sharingan doesn't mean he can't.



you have a funny way of looking at things, so every time a opponents backs up or tries to avoid a attack they know there outclassed? that makes no sense.

So when bee hid from sasuke and karin pointed out where bee was did bee know he was outclassed?

itachi saw the technique and knew it couldn't be blocked by conventional means and got out of range of said technique it had nothing to do with feeling outclassed.


it also doesn't mean he can.



IchLiebe said:


> I've never seen anything to suggest that Itachi moves faster than weightless Lee(except for the 5 in the databook, which I can go on and on and pick that shit apart like its broccoli in my teeth).



the 5 stat in the data book and him pressuring faster opponents then lee, and all of this is actually irrelevant as lee was *weighted* and injured when he was hitting kimmimaru.



IchLiebe said:


> Your arguing that Itachi WON"T get hit at all, which is bullshit.



im arguing kimmimaru is not *casually* hitting itachi which i have backed up with feats and databook stats not my own assumptions which is bias to begin with because i don't like a character.



IchLiebe said:


> The only time Gaara was able to catch Kimi was by grinding the earth underneath and surprising Kimi, something he wasn't shown to be able to do before this fight.




you do realize garra pressured kimmi as soon as the fight started and forced him into cs2 almost immediately 



IchLiebe said:


> didn't Gaara just turtle up against Sasuke? yea, and Sasuke still bled...Also love how Sasuke handled Gaara and was able to defeat him on his own...oh wait, Naruto beat Gaara. Gaara also didn't use the sand rain against those two.




Are you asserting kimmimaru can beat garra with the shukaku? 

garra and sasuke had a brief skirmish, once he saw sasuke's speed he then decided to turtle up against him as he couldn't hit him.





IchLiebe said:


> Gaara realized that he was at a disadvantage against people who had the speed to bypass his sand and thus uses more AoE, and uses small amounts of sand(from his gourd) to catch the opponent.




Honestly had it not been for cs2 garra would have mid diff kimmimaru and kimmimaru is restricted to base in scenario 2 so i won't go way off topic debating this.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi with Sasuke's Katana would murder Kimi in straight Kenjutsu.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 21, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> The author went out of his way to stack the reasons that healthy Itachi was a beast, and yet Munboy still says what he says.



The author said what he said. The thing IchLiebe and I are saying is that you clearly didn't understand what the author said. This is strongly supported by "evidence" you've simply massively misinterpreted. For instance, you've still not looked at the panels after the one you like to post since the time you've joined. That neglect shows that even you don't fully believe what you're saying. Your link is also poor evidence because you cannot support it with anything substantive.

In short: you're exaggerating the what Itachi's sickness actually did.



Dr. White said:


> Because terminal illnesses are so variable right
> 
> Because BZ didn't state Itachi looked like he was severly damaged before the fight right?
> 
> ...



Like Mr. Stategoob you're misinterpreting evidence.



> You are the single most delusional poster on this forum granted you aren't attempting to troll (which may I add would be weak as fuck).



This sounds like my argument strikes a nerve. It makes it look like you've got no leg to stand on when you need to resort to such petty tactics. That goes for anyone who really needs to resort to such tactics in these sort of debates, tbh.



> Yeah because Sasuke was the one throwing the fight to keep Itachi alive



Itachi threw the fight by not using his strongest jutsu on Sasuke. I.E. without his strongest jutsu, he could have been killed by a Katon.


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## trance (Jul 21, 2014)

Scenario one- 

Scenario two- 

Itachi is far above any version of Kimimaro. Even in portrayal, he takes a shit on Kimi.


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## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Like Mr. Stategoob you're misinterpreting evidence.


Go ahead and point out what's wrong with my post. Don't worry I'll wait.





> This sounds like my argument strikes a nerve. It makes it look like you've got no leg to stand on when you need to resort to such petty tactics. That goes for anyone who really needs to resort to such tactics in these sort of debates, tbh.


What really shows people you have no leg to stand on is when you go against manga cannon or respond to people's post using one liners like
"Like Mr. Stategoob you're misinterpreting evidence."

Without actually explaining what is misinterpreted.

It shows that....

*Spoiler*: __ 



You're weak as fuck 








> Itachi threw the fight by not using his strongest jutsu on Sasuke. I.E. without his strongest jutsu, he could have been killed by a Katon.


What 

Your conclusion is no where near satisfied by the premise. Just because Itachi didn't kill Sasuke with his MS techs doesn't mean Sasuke kills him with a katon lol. Base Itachi still beats Hebi Sasuke decisively via genjutsu and better stats lol.

He threw te fight by never actually attempting to kill Sasuke. Had he wanted Sasuke would have been done in after the first genjutsu battle. which is why tobi straight up tells Sasuke such. Sasuke doesn't believe him and states "But nah ah, he used MS on me!", and tobi replies saying he did it for Oro to come out.

What are we to deduce?

Sick Itachi could have beat Sasuke if he wanted to (tobi's demeanor implies quite easily as well), and MS was only used to draw Oro out.

But then again why am I feeding the trolls?


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## Goobtachi (Jul 21, 2014)

Are we seriously debating whether a character that is weaker to VoTe Sasuke will defeat Itachi?



What are the mods doing in this section?



PS: Oh yeah, i just saw who the OP was and i'm not even surprised...some kids should be banned from posting for their own good.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Go ahead and point out what's wrong with my post. Don't worry I'll wait.



See every single thread we've ever debated in. I've told you several, several times. 




> What really shows people you have no leg to stand on is when you go against manga cannon or respond to people's post using one liners like
> "Like Mr. Stategoob you're misinterpreting evidence."
> 
> Without actually explaining what is misinterpreted.
> ...



I don't see facts here. 




> What are we to deduce?



What the manga said: sick Itachi is just a little slower and coughs. 
Nothing extreme like Itachi was severely held back... you propound that this hindrance was more than it canonically was.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 21, 2014)

The manga also said itachi should of been much stronger then this but im sleep


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## Cognitios (Jul 21, 2014)

If Itachi was much stronger not sick and his only physical symptoms were coughing and a little bit slow we must assume that his breath holding ability was that of a whale and his speed surpassed minato. 
Either that or his overall stats were lowered by the disease.
Your choice, either way i'm fine with both.


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## Bloo (Jul 21, 2014)

Itachi wins both scenarios. Anyone that actually believes Kimimaro wins the first scenario is delusional. As for the second scenario, what is Kimimaro going to do against a faster, physically stronger, better at ninjutsu, and more intelligent opponent? The only area Kimimaro edges Itachi out in is Taijutsu, but the other components ultimately make Itachi the more dangerous CQC combatant, along with having better overall feats.

As for the pathetic argument being made by the opponents to Itachi in this thread regarding Itachi's illness: Itachi's illness is the only illness in the manga to have a very clear presence in one of his fights. Kimimaro's only appeared in him randomly dying. Itachi's had him coughing, spitting out blood, breaking down physically, and ultimately dying. I don't see how you can even argue that Itachi's illness was any less terminal than Kimimaro's. There's more evidence that his was even more damaging to the body than Kimimaro's.


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> The manga also said itachi should of been much stronger then this but im sleep



Can you post where did the manga say that? @>@


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## Bloo (Jul 21, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Can you post where did the manga say that? @>@


----------



## Trojan (Jul 22, 2014)

^
thanks..

Though the "much" is an exaggeration from the translator...
according to Viz.

Zetsu: I know itachi's stronger than this...He's moving strangely... don't you think something is not right?

There is not anything mentioned about "much" or about his "attacking"


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## Bloo (Jul 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> thanks..
> 
> Though the "much" is an exaggeration from the translator...
> ...


What's your point? "Much" should be inferred because I'm sure Itachi, while healthy, isn't coughing up blood. And the Viz translation backs up my point that Zetsu believed something was wrong and that Itachi was weaker in his fight with Sasuke than he should have been.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2014)

Itachi wins this quite easily 
However I have to say people are downplaying kimi using part 1 feats 
Despite Kishi complete retcon on Kishi and haku abilities yet people never let up on the part 1 feats 

Let's compare a character in a similar situation kisame 
Who failed to avoid asuma who has been displayed to be grossly inferior to killer bee 
Yet kisame had no issues reacting to killer bee . None at all while killer bee was in base. Mean while sasuke who had been shown to be much faster than kisame before that couldn't keep track of killer bee 

so assuming itachi would dominate kimi in tai jutsu is a joke a bad one a that . With MS and genjutsu itachi wins this clearly . 

Kimi is not slower than hidan and is way more unpredictable if 7 sword dance can push itachi back am thinking 20 protruding bones would have the same effect even if kimi is in fact slower than killer bee 
Though please note even haku who couldn't blitz genin somehow blitz a jounin who blitz deidara who reacted to team Gai effectively 
So speed is as inconsistent as it gets in the manga 
Due to the retcon I put kimi speed at hebi sasuke level


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## Ghost (Jul 22, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke makes Kimi look like a tortoise. If Kimimaro was as fast Sasuke he would've killed both Lee and Gaara in five seconds.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2014)

Bloo said:


> What's your point? "Much" should be inferred because I'm sure Itachi, while healthy, isn't coughing up blood. And the Viz translation backs up my point that Zetsu believed something was wrong and that Itachi was weaker in his fight with Sasuke than he should have been.



O.K, calm down.  
BZ said indeed that itachi should have been stronger, and I did not disagree with that.


----------



## JuicyG (Jul 22, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> People forgetting that burning bypasses conventional durability? Explosive clones would also hamper him.



What about kimi's bone armor is conventional ?



kingcools said:


> itachi hits him in the eyes with a kunai.
> What does his bone armor now?



Severly underestimating Kimi's reflexes and CQC abilities, was good enough for Oro to want his vessel just because of how great he's tai was



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The massive difference between these two situations is, Itachi was stated and shown to be performing poorly because of his illness.
> Kimi on the otherhand wasn't.
> 
> Probably the drugs Kabuto injected in him restored him to his prime for a short while. Plus his willpower.



No Kabuto didnt do shitt for Kimi, Kabuto said he couldnt give him any treatment. A sick Kimi (death bed literally) couldnt even be killed by Gaara + Lee + Kyuubi enchanced Nartuo. I doubt itachi without his prime arsenals can beat this guy Healthy.

And for those saying that Itachi was sicker than Kimi, ( KIMI  DIED IN A BATTLE HE WAS ABOUT TO WIN) Itachi was very ill, but he wasnt on his death bed like Kimi


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## JuicyG (Jul 22, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> doubt that a little subordinate of Oro, who gets himself oneshoted by Itachi, can give Itachi a fight.
> 
> Itachi solos neg diff



Lmao a "little suborndinate" , really ?

The dude was Oro's next choice as a vessel at one point. Kimmi holds a 5 in taijutsu, along with a 4.5 in speed + stamina


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## Bloo (Jul 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Lmao a "little suborndinate" , really ?
> 
> The dude was Oro's next choice as a vessel at one point. Kimmi holds a 5 in taijutsu, along with a 4.5 in speed + stamina


Part I Sasuke was Orochimaru's choice vessel. Being Orochimaru's vessel isn't a legitimate argument here. Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro for his rare bloodline, that's it.

Itachi holds a 5 in speed, 4.5 in taijutsu, 3.5 in strength, and has 3-tomoe sharingan to react to Kimimaro. What's the point you're going for?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> No Kabuto didnt do shitt for Kimi,


He was constantly pumping him with medicine.



> Kabuto said he couldnt give him any treatment. A sick Kimi (death bed literally) couldnt even be killed by Gaara + Lee + Kyuubi enchanced Nartuo. I doubt itachi without his prime arsenals can beat this guy Healthy.


Like I mentioned, Kimi being sick had no hindrance on his performance. Call it willpower/plot/Kabuto's drugs, but he never complained about being slower or weaker. If that was  the case, the author would take note of that.

He fought Naruto, Lee and Gaara gauntlet style, and most part 1 jounins would murder their shit anyway.



> And for those saying that Itachi was sicker than Kimi, ( KIMI  DIED IN A BATTLE HE WAS ABOUT TO WIN) Itachi was very ill, but he wasnt on his death bed like Kimi


I didn't say Itachi was sicker than Kimi. There is no way to know that unless the author clears it for us.
I only said Itachi's illness hindered his performance more than Kimi's did as shown and stated in the manga.

Itachi also died in a battle he won. Not sure what that is supposed to prove.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 22, 2014)

> Say they're not exaggerating the extent to which Itachi's sickness hindered him.
> Fixate on only one panel in the entire page which goes into how his sickness held him back.






Bkprince33 said:


> The manga also said itachi should of been much stronger then this but im sleep



You need to read the rest of that page; don't fix on that one panel.


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## Dr. White (Jul 22, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> What about kimi's bone armor is conventional ?



Your response doesn't make sense.

I stated heat bypasses conventional durability. Conventional durability is being to withstand attacks physically. Like a shield, or armor, it works by being strong enough to block the incoming object without breaking or allowing it to harm the defender.

You can take a knight and throw him in a fireball an his armor won't do jack. Kimmi at the end of the day is still a human with blood, mass amounts of water, and other fluids which will undubtedly be effected by heat. Unfortunately heat can transfer and rather quickly, and bones will only slow down that process a even they have a burning temp.


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## Bloo (Jul 22, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > Say they're not exaggerating the extent to which Itachi's sickness hindered him.


We're not exaggerating. He was coughing up blood and showed more physical depletion than Kimimaro. How is that an exaggeration?


> > Fixate on only one panel in the entire page which goes into how his sickness held him back.


You believing that there was only one panel backing up how sick he was is the problem with this conversation.


> You need to read the rest of that page; don't fix on that one panel.


Please enlighten us as to how we're only referring to one panel when there are pages that show signs of his illness.


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## Dr. White (Jul 22, 2014)

Commentary from someone who know's Itachi's skill and saw the whole fight.



Compare


to



I wonder why there is such a discrepancy in panels highlighting each person being sick


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 23, 2014)

In one instance we have a clear retcon of strenght and in another we dont the author decides these things really no room for debate to be honest Imo kimi has better feats then his part 1 incarnation inside the war but so does itachi and to say where exaggerating his sickness when where directly quoting the manga is mind boggling to me.


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