# Sabo vs Doflamingo



## Artful Lurker (Apr 19, 2014)

Location - Sabaody Archipelago

Distance - 20 Meters 

Knowledge - None

Who would win and why?


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## trance (Apr 19, 2014)

Sabo wins.


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## Orca (Apr 19, 2014)

Sabo wins.


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## Rocktomato (Apr 19, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Sabo wins.





Luffee said:


> Sabo wins.





saikyou said:


> Sabo wins.





Lionel Messi said:


> Sabo because Sabo





What said:


> tl;dr
> Sabo wins.





Stαrkiller said:


> He wins because I said so.





Artful Lurker said:


> Location - Sabaody Archipelago
> 
> Distance - 20 Meters
> 
> ...



Jesus guys, is basic reading comprehension too much for you or something?

Doflamingo wins. He's on a comparable level to Sabo, his puppeteering powers are just too much against a solo opponent when he sees his enemy coming - as he will - and i'm sure we'll see him getting even more hype in the upcoming chapter(s)


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## Orca (Apr 19, 2014)

He wins cuz he's Dragon's right hand and Ace + 2 years. That's big hype. Enough to put him above doffy.  And I don't see Sabo losing to a person who is probably about to lose to Luffy. Even if Luffy gets a little bit of help.


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## Ghost (Apr 19, 2014)

Sabo wins.


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## trance (Apr 19, 2014)

Rocktomato said:


> Jesus guys, is basic reading comprehension too much for you or something?



He wins because I said so. Better?


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## Canute87 (Apr 19, 2014)

He wins because he's stronger than luffy and luffy will defeat doflamingo.


Don't act like you guys can make any better reasoning


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## trance (Apr 19, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> He wins because he's stronger than luffy and *luffy will defeat doflamingo.*
> 
> 
> Don't act like you guys can make any better reasoning



>Implying that Luffy will beat Doffy in a fair fight


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## Slenderman (Apr 19, 2014)

Rocktomato said:


> Jesus guys, is basic reading comprehension too much for you or something?
> 
> Doflamingo wins. He's on a comparable level to Sabo, his puppeteering powers are just too much against a solo opponent when he sees his enemy coming - as he will - and i'm sure we'll see him getting even more hype in the upcoming chapter(s)



You don't need to start insulting people. Maybe they don't feel like saying why  Saying, "is basic reading comprehension too much for you or something"? Makes you come off as extremely condescending. 

Sabo wins mid-high diff. His hype is amazing and he probably should be YFM level.


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## Rocktomato (Apr 19, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> You don't need to start insulting people. Maybe they don't feel like saying why. Maybe they don't feel like saying why :dunno Saying, "is basic reading comprehension too much for you or something"? Makes you come off as extremely condescending.
> 
> Sabo wins mid high diff. His hype is amazing and he probably should be YFM level.



There is literally no point in contributing to a thread like this without reading the rules. If it's just to say who you think wins in two words, nothing is gained. It's like spending money by visiting Argument Clinic from Monty Python: A waste of time for everyone involved. Even this discussion is more interesting than that.

The only conceivable reason not to want to say why is because you can't think of a reason, in which case the conclusion is flawed by the very way it's reached: Assumption. Contrary to this, your opinion was backed up and thus a contribution to the thread.

I should hope I come off as extremely condescending to anyone who won't put the slightest effort into backing up their thoughts, because it's the sort of thing that turns a board into a hollow shell. People don't make threads like this for two word responses, they come here for interesting discussions. People can just say 'Sabo wins' or 'Doflamingo wins' if they want, but it's pretty pointless and shows they don't really care, which makes one wonder why they bother visiting the thread at all.


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## Canute87 (Apr 19, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> >Implying that Luffy will beat Doffy in a fair fight



Well if we are talking fair in the sense of none of that nightmare shit giving temporary boosts to power then yes the fight will be "fair".


But then what is a fair fight in this manga? Hmmmmm might need a thread on that.


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## blueframe01 (Apr 19, 2014)

Sabo wins. At this point he should be comfortably above Dofla. He's dragon's right hand, Toyed around Jesus and is pretty much Ace + 2 years exp & a much better Haki user. That's way more hype than Dofla has, especially when he's pretty much gonna get beat by Luffy in this arc anyway.



Stαrkiller said:


> >Implying that Luffy will beat Doffy in a fair fight



Implying that the Doffy or any past villains have ever fought fairly? with all the disadvantages that the SHs end up with with all arc villains, they are bound to get something to even the plying fields.


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## Shinthia (Apr 20, 2014)

Sabo because Sabo


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## Magentabeard (Apr 20, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> He wins because I said so. Better?



Dont take the guy who thinks Sanji=Zoro seriously


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## Karashi (Apr 20, 2014)

This section lately have been infested with people who have major reading problems and those who point that out are not helping including me lel. But seriously, a guy who's getting his ass handed to him vs the second strongest man behind Dragon. Wow .


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## Koichi (Apr 20, 2014)

The guy who got his head decapitated aint winning this!!


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## Freechoice (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocktomato said:


> There is literally no point in contributing to a thread like this without reading the rules. If it's just to say who you think wins in two words, nothing is gained. It's like spending money by visiting Argument Clinic from Monty Python: A waste of time for everyone involved. Even this discussion is more interesting than that.
> 
> The only conceivable reason not to want to say why is because you can't think of a reason, in which case the conclusion is flawed by the very way it's reached: Assumption. Contrary to this, your opinion was backed up and thus a contribution to the thread.
> 
> I should hope I come off as extremely condescending to anyone who won't put the slightest effort into backing up their thoughts, because it's the sort of thing that turns a board into a hollow shell. People don't make threads like this for two word responses, they come here for interesting discussions. People can just say 'Sabo wins' or 'Doflamingo wins' if they want, but it's pretty pointless and shows they don't really care, which makes one wonder why they bother visiting the thread at all.



tl;dr

Sabo   wins.


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## tupadre97 (Apr 20, 2014)

Sabo wins because he's Dragon's right hand man. Doflamingo should be about as strong but he won't beat him, Sabo has too much hype.


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## Kings Disposition (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocktomato said:


> I should hope I come off as extremely condescending to anyone who won't put the slightest effort into backing up their thoughts, because it's the sort of thing that turns a board into a hollow shell. People don't make threads like this for two word responses, they come here for interesting discussions. People can just say 'Sabo wins' or 'Doflamingo wins' if they want, but it's pretty pointless and shows they don't really care, which makes one wonder why they bother visiting the thread at all.


Yea I know what you mean here dude. 

There was a Hancock vs Crocodile + Moria thread awhile back where several people just wrote one liners about who wins without going into the slightest detail (which is baffling considering we have a good idea of what they're all capable of) about the fight and it made me wonder what you just described here.


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## ShadowReaper (Apr 20, 2014)

The King>Mary Sue.


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## Freechoice (Apr 20, 2014)

Don't start that Mary Sue shit.


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## Extravlad (Apr 20, 2014)

Dressrosa is Alabasta 2.0
Crocodile = Dofla.
Ace = Sabo.
Ace was stronger than Crocodile at Alabasta, so Sabo should be stronger than DD.


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> Implying that the Doffy or any past villains have ever fought fairly? with all the disadvantages that the SHs end up with with all arc villains, they are bound to get something to even the plying fields.



Luffy vs Croc - Luffy got stomped in a fair fight twice in a row and the second time logia intangibility wasn't a factor. The third fight, Luffy only won because of PIS/CIS. Croc for some reason decided to brawl with Luffy and somehow forgot his entire moveset and didn't use any sand abilities at all until the the last attack. And for whatever reason having a tiny bit of blood on Luffy's knuckles was enough to land hits on a logia user, especially since the blood started to fade away as the match carried on.

Luffy vs Enel - Enel has one of the most destructive logia usage we've seen on panel, this guy solo'd people around Luffy's level like Wiper, Zoro, Sanji. And in most of those fights his logia defense wasn't even a factor, he just gg'd them with casual lightning attacks. Then you have Luffy who is the only person in the entire world with a natural immunity to Enel's devil fruit, which made Enel have to brawl with someone who's a natural brawler and Enel took some hits, but actually won that fight. Luffy won after going back up with that last rifle bell attack which Enel randomly decided to stand there and tank despite the fact that he can basically teleport. 

Luffy vs Rob Lucci - The SH's first interactions with the CP9 people, they got utterly low diff'd wrecked. The only way they were able to compete later on, was because they got powerups which gave them the edge.

Luffy vs Oz/Moriah - Oz and Moriah were wrecking the SH's with ease. The only reason they won was because Luffy got a powerup.

Luffy vs Doflamingo - Mingo wrecks people on Luffy's level with ease like Law, Smoker, Sanji. Oda consistently portrays him above their level. Same with Enel who stomped Wiper, Zoro, Sanji. Luffy can win the fight, but definitely not without help or PIS/CIS.

See the trend? 

Luffy always gets help in the major arcs of the series. The whole theme is that Luffy, the underdog, overcomes the odds and manages to beat opponents that he shouldn't beat or who are stronger than he is. Obviously that involves getting some kind of help.


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## MrWano (Apr 20, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Luffy vs Croc - Luffy got stomped in a fair fight twice in a row and the second time logia intangibility wasn't a factor. The third fight, Luffy only won because of PIS/CIS. Croc for some reason decided to brawl with Luffy and somehow forgot his entire moveset and didn't use any sand abilities at all until the the last attack. And for whatever reason having a tiny bit of blood on Luffy's knuckles was enough to land hits on a logia user, especially since the blood started to fade away as the match carried on.
> 
> Luffy vs Enel - Enel has one of the most destructive logia usage we've seen on panel, this guy solo'd people around Luffy's level like Wiper, Zoro, Sanji. And in most of those fights his logia defense wasn't even a factor, he just gg'd them with casual lightning attacks. Then you have Luffy who is the only person in the entire world with a natural immunity to Enel's devil fruit, which made Enel have to brawl with someone who's a natural brawler and Enel took some hits, but actually won that fight. Luffy won after going back up with that last rifle bell attack which Enel randomly decided to stand there and tank despite the fact that he can basically teleport. Not liking the moisture weakness is subjective.
> 
> ...



Luffy vs Croc -  First two loses were fine. Luffy's victory was as well. Croc is arguably the most arrogant character in the manga, believing himself to be superior to pretty much everyone. It's not that odd that he chose to save his strongest sand attack until the end, while utilizing a different fighting style before that. He used his hook quite a bit in the war, for example against Mihawk and Doffy. Besides, the poison hook might simply have been his way of trying to kill Luffy once and for all, seen as his previous tries ended up in failures. 

Luffy vs Enel - Enel was in fact quite a bit stronger than Luffy, but there's nothing wrong with the guy having a god complex believing he can tank such an attack. A completely legitimate win in my eyes. But yes, he won due to a fluke. 

Luffy vs Rob - Yeah, they got power ups. The final fight was still fair.

Luffy vs Moria -  Oz himself was a situational advantage for Moria, as were the thousand shadows at Moria's disposal and having Luffy's shadow brought to him by his subordinates. In the end the fight was against time and not Moria.

See how readers interpret the fights differently? 

Luffy can still be weaker than Doffy and beat him in what some readers might define as a fair fight. It doesn't have to happen, but it can.

You're also oversimplifying Smoker's and Law's losses to Doffy. Smoker did not have have his signature weapon and had been tossed around for an entire arc. Sure, Sanji's soup helped somewhat, but I don't believe he was close to 100% when fighting Doffy.

Law's situation is obvious. Oda gives us the knowledge that Law using his df drains stamina. He then has Law facing both an admiral and Doffy by himself for an extended period of time. 
Despite that, Law still gives him a decent fight and even injures him.

As for Sanji, he lost badly. But then again, he wasn't completely outclassed in terms of physical abilities, so Doffy chose to end it with his ultra hax move. Luffy would obviously not beat Sanji that easily. I for one believe that Sanji gets a bit too much credit when compared to Luffy, so he might not be very representative in giving us an idea of how Luffy would fare against Doffy.

OT: Unless Sabo turns out be another Ace (not really the second strongest in the crew/organization), I don't see Doffy pushing him to his limits. Both Sabo's and the RA's hype is too great.


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

MrWano said:


> Luffy vs Croc -  First two loses were fine. Luffy's victory was as well. Croc is arguably the most arrogant character in the manga, believing himself to be superior to pretty much everyone. It's not that odd that he chose to save his strongest sand attack until the end, while utilizing a different fighting style before that. He used his hook quite a bit in the war, for example against Mihawk and Doffy. Besides, the poison hook might simply have been his way of trying to kill Luffy once and for all, seen as his previous tries ended up in failures.



First two fights he mainly uses his sand abilities and in the last fight he decides to brawl with Luffy instead? If he would've fought Luffy using his sand abilities then he would've fared better. Whether you think that fight was fair or not, the fact of remains that Luffy won due to PIS.

And Luffy lost twice in to Croc and Croc won once. The point is, Croc was a stronger opponent then Luffy and Luffy due to plot help(without plot shield he would've died, if not the first time, then definitely the second) was able to beat him. Same way he's gonna beat DD who's stronger than he is, plot help.



> Luffy vs Enel - Enel was in fact quite a bit stronger than Luffy, but there's nothing wrong with the guy having a god complex believing he can tank such an attack. A completely legitimate win in my eyes. But yes, he won due to a fluke.



Enel has the ability to basically teleport but decided to use a lightning move against Luffy when he should know already that it wouldn't work. Again whether you think it's fair or not, fact remains that he lost because of plot induced stupidity(PIS). 



> Luffy vs Rob - Yeah, they got power ups. The final fight was still fair.



Yeah, the last fight was one of the fairest fights in the manga. If Luffy got a powerup against DD and wins, that'd be a fair fight. But that doesn't change the fact that before the power up the villain was stronger and Luffy needed plot help to win.



> Luffy vs Moria -  Oz himself was a situational advantage for Moria, as were the thousand shadows at Moria's disposal and having Luffy's shadow brought to him by his subordinates. In the end the fight was against time and not Moria.



Oz was raping the SH's. Luffy gets a power up and was able to beat him. Without the power up he would've lost. He got plot help in this match up.



> You're also oversimplifying Smoker's and Law's losses to Doffy. Smoker did not have have his signature weapon and had been tossed around for an entire arc. Sure, Sanji's soup helped somewhat, but I don't believe he was close to 100% when fighting Doffy.



Oda specifically drew the scene of Sanji's soup, to show that they were all recovered and ready to go on the next adventure. If Oda wanted to show that Smoker was still hurt from Vergo's fight, he would probably mention it.

And it's not like Smoker's jutte would've helped him much here, it's not like DD is a logia user or anything. The moment Smoker stood against DD, the next panel we see blood and Smoker's cigar's flying in the air. 

And if Oda wanted to portray that Smoker was near DD's level then surely he would've done the scene a lot different instead of making it look like a complete fodderization. He would've at least mentioned that Smoker was still injured from his fight or did what the anime did and have DD struggle with tagging him for a bit and have him only win due to Smoker being distracted.

Plus Smoker vs Vergo was a fair fight and Vergo didn't have too much trouble bringing him down. DD should be stronger than his Elite Officer's at least. So it makes sense that'd he'd have a much easier time against Smoker than Vergo did.

And that scene with Smoker was specifically put there to hype the arc villain which Oda loves to do. It was to show how strong DD is.



> Law's situation is obvious. Oda gives us the knowledge that Law using his df drains stamina. He then has Law facing both an admiral and Doffy by himself for an extended period of time.
> Despite that, Law still gives him a decent fight and even injures him.



See you're trying to look at these situations from a "feats" perspective or through real world logical reasoning, instead of looking at what the author is trying to portray. Something that a lot of people seem to ignore.

From an author portrayal perspective, that bridge scene was specifically put there to show that DD was stronger than Law and again, to hype the villain of the arc. If Oda wanted to portray that Law was near DD's level but only disadvantaged atm, then surely he would've done that scene differently.

And extended period of time is an overstatement. Law running from DD and Fujitora was hardly an extended fight. 

And if we were to go with the devil fruit stamina argument, then DD was using his ability a pretty hefty amount as well. We saw at Green Bit, he was cutting the trees and stuff not to mention that he flew all the way to Green Bit from Dressrosa using his strings. Then after that he spent a good amount of time in the air with that whole Law/Sanji/Thousand Sunny situation using his strings to stay in the air, plus using attacks including one of the strongest attacks we've seen from him so far. While during the Sanji scuffle, Law only used small sized rooms to teleport Sanji away and to protect the Sunny from a meteor.

So if Law loss some stamina during that whole situation, then DD lost some stamina as well from using his ability basically the whole entire ordeal. Which makes their fight on the bridge a fair fight.

And I'd hardly call a little cut on the cheek an injury compared to what we've seen the type of damage people have taken throughout the series.



> As for Sanji, he lost badly. But then again, he wasn't completely outclassed in terms of physical abilities, so Doffy chose to end it with his ultra hax move. Luffy would obviously not beat Sanji that easily. I for one believe that Sanji gets a bit too much credit when compared to Luffy, so he might not be very representative in giving us an idea of how Luffy would fare against Doffy.



Sanji came out of no where and ambushed DD with a Diamble jambe. Doflamingo blocked it with his bare leg without hardening or anything. Sanji attacked again and Mingo easily dodged it with a smile on his face and cut him up with his strings. Sanji got hurt, but came back using that ranged fire attack and DD easily blocked it with his fur coat of all things. And _then_ he used his parasite, overheat combo.

If Oda wanted to portray that Sanji was near DD's level and only lost due to hax, he could've easily have had Sanji perform much better during the scuffle before hand. Maybe put a few beads of sweat on Doffy's face or make Sanji hurt him a bit instead of having Mingo smiling for most of the fight while handling his attacks with ease.

And yeah, Luffy would fair better against DD then Sanji did. DD low diff'd Sanji with ease. Luffy could probably push DD to a the higher end of mid diff, imo. But definitely not enough to be stronger than him or beat him without plot help.

And when I say plot help, that doesn't mean it won't be "fair" per se or that it was stupid or bad writing or whatever. But at the end of the day, if Luffy beats DD due to help from the plot, that doesn't mean he's on DD's level or stronger than him like some believe.

Like his fight against Enel. Luffy won the fight, but if he wasn't a rubber man he would've got one shotted by that El thor Enel sent his way at the start of their fight. So Luffy beating Enel doesn't mean he was on his level or stronger than him.

Same situation here.


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## MrWano (Apr 20, 2014)

@YM

First two fights he mainly uses his sand abilities and in the last fight he decides to brawl with Luffy instead? If he would've fought Luffy using his sand abilities then he would've fared better. Whether you think that fight was fair or not, the fact of remains that Luffy won due to PIS.

* Your interpretation(s) is not a fact. What won Croc the first two fights so easily was his moisture draining attack, which Luffy dealt with in the third fight. It's not inconsistent, as we've seen Croc using his hook in CQC against vastly superior opponents.*

And Luffy lost twice in to Croc and Croc won once. The point is, Croc was a stronger opponent then Luffy and Luffy due to plot help(without plot shield he would've died, if not the first time, then definitely the second) was able to beat him. Same way he's gonna beat DD who's stronger than he is, plot help.

*Plot shield is not what I consider a legitimate excuse.*

Enel has the ability to basically teleport but decided to use a lightning move against Luffy when he should know already that it wouldn't work. Again whether you think it's fair or not, fact remains that he lost because of plot induced stupidity(PIS). 

*And again, your interpretation(s) is not fact. It's like you consider yourself above others.  He transformed into a larger version of himself, perhaps thinking it would grant him more physical strength or durability. It can have plenty of explanation when it comes yo why he chose to transform.*

Yeah, the last fight was one of the fairest fights in the manga. If Luffy got a powerup against DD and wins, that'd be a fair fight. But that doesn't change the fact that before the power up the villain was stronger and Luffy needed plot help to win.

*Sure, but that's a non issue so far, as it still has to happen. And I think you misuse the word plot.*

Oz was raping the SH's. Luffy gets a power up and was able to beat him. Without the power up he would've lost. He got plot help in this match up.

*This isn't an issue. Luffy getting the shadows is as much plot as Oz getting Luffy's shadow. Without it he wouldn't be nearly as strong.*


Oda specifically drew the scene of Sanji's soup, to show that they were all recovered and ready to go on the next adventure. If Oda wanted to show that Smoker was still hurt from Vergo's fight, he would probably mention it.

*Him still being bandaged showed that well enough.*

And it's not like Smoker's jutte would've helped him much here, it's not like DD is a logia user or anything. The moment Smoker stood against DD, the next panel we see blood and Smoker's cigar's flying in the air. 

* It might've. It's a vital part of his fighting style, after all. And we saw with Law that Doffy's strong  string attacks can be blocked. Smoker fought evenly with Law, so it's not inconceivable that he could've blocked the strings as well. as well.*

And if Oda wanted to portray that Smoker was near DD's level then surely he would've done the scene a lot different instead of making it look like a complete fodderization. He would've at least mentioned that Smoker was still injured from his fight or did what the anime did and have DD struggle with tagging him for a bit and have him only win due to Smoker being distracted.

*He doesn't have to state it as the bandages, Smoker getting his ass kicked several times beforehand and him missing a jutte conveyed that well enough. I don't think he's that close to Doffy, but I doubt he'd get fodderized in a "fair fight".*

Plus Smoker vs Vergo was a fair fight and Vergo didn't have too much trouble bringing him down. DD should be stronger than his Elite Officer's at least. So it makes sense that'd he'd have a much easier time against Smoker than Vergo did.

*I disagree. Smoker did well against Vergo. Vergo was trembling and holding his head from a single punch. Smoker also wanted to pay his debt to Law, so he eventually focused on getting the heart back.*

And that scene with Smoker was specifically put there to hype the arc villain which Oda loves to do. It was to show how strong DD is.

*Sure, but inconstancies have been rather common in OP due to misplaced hype. And like I said above, I don't believe it's as straight forward as you think.*

See you're trying to look at these situations from a "feats" perspective or through real world logical reasoning, instead of looking at what the author is trying to portray. Something that a lot of people seem to ignore.

*Nope, I simply interpret it differently. *

From an author portrayal perspective, that bridge scene was specifically put there to show that DD was stronger than Law and again, to hype the villain of the arc. If Oda wanted to portray that Law was near DD's level but only disadvantaged atm, then surely he would've done that scene differently.

*Or it was put there to show us that Law simply needs all his power to be able to put up a good fight against Doffy.*

And extended period of time is an overstatement. Law running from DD and Fujitora was hardly an extended fight. 

*Didn't say it was an extended fight, but they did engage for a significant amount of time, yes.*

And if we were to go with the devil fruit stamina argument, then DD was using his ability a pretty hefty amount as well. We saw at Green Bit, he was cutting the trees and stuff not to mention that he flew all the way to Green Bit from Dressrosa using his strings. Then after that he spent a good amount of time in the air with that whole Law/Sanji/Thousand Sunny situation using his strings to stay in the air, plus using attacks including one of the strongest attacks we've seen from him so far. While during the Sanji scuffle, Law only used small sized rooms to teleport Sanji away and to protect the Sunny from a meteor.

* Law simple having his room up drains stamina, making it a passive thing. On top of that he's gonna have his stamina drained for slashing and other offensive and defensive moves. Doffy only uses stamina when slashing with his strings and defending himself, something he barely did. He doesn't have to set it up or anything. It's not comparable.  *

So if Law loss some stamina during that whole situation, then DD lost some stamina as well from using his ability basically the whole entire ordeal. Which makes their fight on the bridge a fair fight.

*His loss was insignificant compared to Law's though.*

And I'd hardly call a little cut on the cheek an injury compared to what we've seen the type of damage people have taken throughout the series.

*It shows that's he's not untouchable, even for an injured Law.*

Sanji came out of no where and ambushed DD with a Diamble jambe. Doflamingo blocked it with his bare leg without hardening or anything. Sanji attacked again and Mingo easily dodged it with a smile on his face and cut him up with his strings. Sanji got hurt, but came back using that ranged fire attack and DD easily blocked it with his fur coat of all things. And _then_ he used his parasite, overheat combo.

*That's all true, but doesn't forget the two scenes where he praised him. And he did grit his teeth.*

If Oda wanted to portray that Sanji was near DD's level and only lost due to hax, he could've easily have had Sanji perform much better during the scuffle before hand. Maybe put a few beads of sweat on Doffy's face or make Sanji hurt him a bit instead of having Mingo smiling for most of the fight while handling his attacks with ease.

*Again, the praise and the teeth gritting. Sure, Doffy was in control, and I'm not saying Sanji only lost due to hax. I think he'd lose pretty badly even without it, just that it wouldn't be a stomp. 
And I don't think Sanji is all that close to Doffy in general.*

And yeah, Luffy would fair better against DD then Sanji did. DD low diff'd Sanji with ease. Luffy could probably push DD to a the higher end of mid diff, imo. But definitely not enough to be stronger than him or beat him without plot help.

*In the first fight, I think it might go worse than that for Luffy. With knowledge I think he could do better.*

And when I say plot help, that doesn't mean it won't be "fair" per se or that it was stupid or bad writing or whatever. But at the end of the day, if Luffy beats DD due to help from the plot, that doesn't mean he's on DD's level or stronger than him like some believe.

*Sure. I could argue semantics, but that'd be pointless.*

Like his fight against Enel. Luffy won the fight, but if he wasn't a rubber man he would've got one shotted by that El thor Enel sent his way at the start of their fight. So Luffy beating Enel doesn't mean he was on his level or stronger than him.

*Luffy beating Enel was due to a fluke and a unique interaction between abilities. So far we haven't gotten any hints that it'll be the same now.*

I don't know how to properly split the quote(s), so yeah. :/


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## J★J♥ (Apr 20, 2014)

Doflamingo cuts his head of and saws it to his ass.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 20, 2014)

Dofla wins:

he was able to use parasite on Jozu (whos stronger as Sabo)
hes got the conquerors haki 
he fodderized Sanji (whos part of the m3 and in luffys reach)

Sabo:

just destroyed a ring
is just Coby with blonde hair and a faked scar


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

> * Your interpretation(s) is not a fact. What won Croc the first two fights so easily was his moisture draining attack, which Luffy dealt with in the third fight. It's not inconsistent, as we've seen Croc using his hook in CQC against vastly superior opponents.*



Do you agree or not agree that he would fare better against Luffy had he actually used his abilities? If he would've, then yeah, that's plot induced stupidity by definition.

What won Croc the first fight was the fact that Luffy literally couldn't touch him. The second fight, he dealt with that with Water Luffy and was able to land a few good shots, but overall Croc overwhelmed him with his abilities, they're were multiple abilities in use that put Luffy on the ropes, the moisture thing was just last gg maneuver.

And how did Luffy deal with the moisture draining in the third fight? Refresh my memory.



> *Plot shield is not what I consider a legitimate excuse.*



"Character shields (also known as plot armor or plot shield) are plot devices in films and television shows that prevent important characters from dying or being seriously injured at dramatically inconvenient moments. It often denotes a situation in which it strains credibility to believe that the character would survive."

Obviously Luffy can't die, he's the main character and he's supposed to become the PK at the end.

Even if all 3 Admirals showed up at Luffy's front doorstep, plot would intervene and Oda would give him the luckiest situation ever to get out of that so he won't die. That's what Plot Shield is.

Luffy was basically dead until Robin came and saved him. And he was essentially dead again until the water that he spit out conveniently dropped in the same way that it came out and landed exactly on his face making him perfectly rejuvinated.

If Luffy wasn't the main character he'd be dead, or at least out of the fight for some time. 



> *And again, your interpretation(s) is not fact. It's like you consider yourself above others. *


*

Lol.




He transformed into a larger version of himself, perhaps thinking it would grant him more physical strength or durability. It can have plenty of explanation when it comes yo why he chose to transform.

Click to expand...


Do you agree or not agree that if Enel had teleported instead of trying to tank that attack he would've fared better in the end? Cause if you agree then yeah, that was Enel being stupid and Oda was the one that made him stupid so he could be defeated so that's the very definition of Plot Induced Stupidity.




Sure, but that's a non issue so far, as it still has to happen. And I think you misuse the word plot.

Click to expand...


I'm not misusing the word plot. Oda writes the story in a certain way for a reason. One Piece is not real life, it's written by an author. The villain was stronger than Luffy and he needed plot help to win. Meaning the author needed to give him a power-up to compete.




This isn't an issue. Luffy getting the shadows is as much plot as Oz getting Luffy's shadow. Without it he wouldn't be nearly as strong.

Click to expand...


I'm not saying that it isn't fair, but that there was a strong enemy, the enemy was stronger than Luffy, Luffy needed plot help to beat said enemy.

Same with DD vs Luffy. DD is stronger than Luffy, Luffy needs plot help to beat said enemy.




Him still being bandaged showed that well enough.

Click to expand...


He was bandaged? I don't see bandages.








 It might've. It's a vital part of his fighting style, after all. And we saw with Law that Doffy's strong  string attacks can be blocked. Smoker fought evenly with Law, so it's not inconceivable that he could've blocked the strings as well. as well.

Click to expand...


Yeah, it would've helped but not much. Best he could've asked for is the same difficulty Law pushed Doflamingo. Which is low-mid difficulty at best.




He doesn't have to state it as the bandages, Smoker getting his ass kicked several times beforehand and him missing a jutte conveyed that well enough. I don't think he's that close to Doffy, but I doubt he'd get fodderized in a "fair fight".

Click to expand...


Okay. Smoker didn't get hurt or injured at all during Law's fight. He got his heart taken away.

And against Vergo, he got hit from some pretty good shots, but people in OP have been shown to take much much worse and recover pretty quickly.

Law took a much worse beating against Vergo then Smoker did and he was seen perfectly fine after the rejuvenating soup. And Sanji broke his leg against Vergo and his leg seems fine now.

This is One Piece, people recover from things way quicker then in real life.




I disagree. Smoker did well against Vergo. Vergo was trembling and holding his head from a single punch. Smoker also wanted to pay his debt to Law, so he eventually focused on getting the heart back.

Click to expand...


Just re-read the fight. Yeah you're right.

But still Law's around Vergo's level and got demolished by DD. And since Vergo's stronger than Smoker or at least on his level, he would get the same treatment by DD.




Sure, but inconstancies have been rather common in OP due to misplaced hype. And like I said above, I don't believe it's as straight forward as you think.

Click to expand...


That scene was shown to show that DD is a strong combatant and that he's stronger than Smoker. And Dressrosa's been consistent with that, with giving him fights against people around Smoker's level and having him defeat them very decisively. His portrayal has been consistently portrayed above M3 level throughout the arc.




Nope, I simply interpret it differently. 

Click to expand...


You can't ignore author portrayal when it's the most important aspect in determining the strength differences between people. If Oda wants a certain person to be stronger than another he will attempt to portray that.

If you argue from "feats" perspective instead of looking at want the author's trying to portray then you could easily say that Zoro >>>>>> Kaido because Zoro has better feats. Or that Luffy = Aokiji and he only lost because of lack of knowledge of his devil fruit or some shit like that.




Or it was put there to show us that Law simply needs all his power to be able to put up a good fight against Doffy.

Click to expand...


He had all his power and he lost with ease.




Didn't say it was an extended fight, but they did engage for a significant amount of time, yes.

Click to expand...


Not really.




 Law simple having his room up drains stamina, making it a passive thing. On top of that he's gonna have his stamina drained for slashing and other offensive and defensive moves. Doffy only uses stamina when slashing with his strings and defending himself, something he barely did. He doesn't have to set it up or anything. It's not comparable.  

Click to expand...


It is comparable. Devil fruits require energy which drain stamina. DD was using his devil fruit quite a bit, almost the entire time. 

He used it to fly all the way from Dressrosa to Punk Hazard, he used it to cut up the marines and smoker, he used it fly to Green Bit from Dressrosa, he used it in his fight against Law and to cut up the meteor, he used it the entire time during the whole Sanji ordeal with him staying in the air and then using one of the strongest techniques we've seen from him.

Law used his room a few times here and there, but not enough where his stamina reserves would drop significantly more than DD's did.

He used his room abilities much more in his fight against Smoker and his stamina was perfectly fine, enough to one shot Vergo who specializes in CoA, and a few times here and there after that. So it's not like Law has terrible stamina issues.




His loss was insignificant compared to Law's though.

Click to expand...


Prove that statement.




It shows that's he's not untouchable, even for an injured Law.

Click to expand...


Law was barely even injured. He was gravity crushed by Fuji which was only strong enough to destroy a small rock. That was only used to hold him down.

Not enough to significantly handicap him in a fight. People take a shit ton more damage then that in this manga.



^This is what I consider a handicapped injury and still Zoro was able to fight for a considerate amount of time and beat one of Arlong's strongest crew mates.

So unless Law's durability is absolute shit tier then him getting a few bruises is not gonna make a significant difference in a fight.

Also, you agree that Luffy vs Rob Lucci was a fair fight. But before then we have Luffy fighting for a considerate amount of time against a large amount of fodder and then fight against Blueno where he had to use G2 an extremely taxing move, and then he fought Rob Lucci.

So if you want to say that Law using his room a few times here and there and getting a few bruises made him significantly weaker and enough to be a handicap for his fight against DD. Then you'd also have to say that Luffy, who fought way longer than Law did throughout the arc should've been significantly handicapped in his fight against Rob Lucci as well.

But that's not the case. Law using his room a few times and getting bruised up a bit is not nearly enough to provide a handicap when we've seen people fight and perform under much worse conditions in the manga.

That's like me tripping and spraining my ankle a bit before a basketball match and blaming that for the sole reason of me losing, even though it would probably feel better after a few minutes at the most.




Again, the praise and the teeth gritting. Sure, Doffy was in control, and I'm not saying Sanji only lost due to hax. I think he'd lose pretty badly even without it, just that it wouldn't be a stomp. 
And I don't think Sanji is all that close to Doffy in general.

Click to expand...


Ok, I agree with that.




Luffy beating Enel was due to a fluke and a unique interaction between abilities. So far we haven't gotten any hints that it'll be the same now.

Click to expand...


I'm not saying it'll be the exact same way. My entire point, is that throughout the series Luffy consistently gets help to beat a stronger opponent. I don't see why that'll change now.*


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## Coruscation (Apr 20, 2014)

> Devil fruits require energy which drain stamina. DD was using his devil fruit quite a bit, almost the entire time.
> 
> He used it to fly all the way from Dressrosa to Punk Hazard, he used it to cut up the marines and smoker, he used it fly to Green Bit from Dressrosa, he used it in his fight against Law and to cut up the meteor, he used it the entire time during the whole Sanji ordeal with him staying in the air and then using one of the strongest techniques we've seen from him.
> 
> Law used his room a few times here and there, but not enough where his stamina reserves dropped significantly more than DD's did.



You are being ridiculous. Not *once* in the manga was Doflamingo's DF draining his stamina highlighted. There is absolutely no clue given to the reader that they are to view that as a factor at all. Weren't you just talking about looking at the author's intent? How can you then miss it so completely here? 

Law says he needs 100% of his power if he is to fight Doflamingo and doesn't even want to fodder swipe with his DF --> Law gets beaten up by an Admiral+Doffy and has to heavily use his Devil Fruit ability before he gets a chance to fight Doflamingo 1v1. This isn't a coincidence. This isn't something you're supposed to look at and go "nope, means nothing because Doflamingo also used his DF". You're supposed to understand that Law was forced to fight Doflamingo in a suboptimal state and acknowledge that this most likely affected how the fight between them played out. That's why Oda said very specifically that Law needs to be at 100% to fight Doflamingo.

Law and Doflamingo's fight is essentially the exact opposite of what you think it is. If Oda wanted nothing more than to show Doflamingo simply being overwhelmingly superior then he would have had a full power Law get destroyed by Doflamingo. Not had a suboptimal Law drag him all across Dress Rosa before going down. Law is the only one who has fought Doffy with 1) proper knowledge and 2) a means to counter his strings. He was made to be at less than 100% in the fight precisely to keep Doflamingo's strength ambiguous and not so untouchable while still retaining his aura of dominance.


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## Shinthia (Apr 20, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You are being ridiculous. Not *once* in the manga was Doflamingo's DF draining his stamina highlighted. There is absolutely no clue given to the reader that they are to view that as a factor at all. Weren't you just talking about looking at the author's intent? How can you then miss it so completely here?
> 
> Law says he needs 100% of his power if he is to fight Doflamingo and doesn't even want to fodder swipe with his DF --> Law gets beaten up by an Admiral+Doffy and has to heavily use his Devil Fruit ability before he gets a chance to fight Doflamingo 1v1. This isn't a coincidence. This isn't something you're supposed to look at and go "nope, means nothing because Doflamingo also used his DF". You're supposed to understand that Law was forced to fight Doflamingo in a suboptimal state and acknowledge that this most likely affected how the fight between them played out. That's why Oda said very specifically that Law needs to be at 100% to fight Doflamingo.
> 
> Law and Doflamingo's fight is essentially the exact opposite of what you think it is. If Oda wanted nothing more than to show Doflamingo simply being overwhelmingly superior then he would have had a full power Law get destroyed by Doflamingo. Not had a suboptimal Law drag him all across Dress Rosa before going down. Law is the only one who has fought Doffy with 1) proper knowledge and 2) a means to counter his strings. He was made to be at less than 100% in the fight precisely to keep Doflamingo's strength ambiguous and not so untouchable while still retaining his aura of dominance.



and a rep+ to coru again


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You are being ridiculous. Not *once* in the manga was Doflamingo's DF draining his stamina highlighted. There is absolutely no clue given to the reader that they are to view that as a factor at all. Weren't you just talking about looking at the author's intent? How can you then miss it so completely here?



That wasn't my point. I don't think Law using his devil fruit a little bit here and there was enough to significantly drain his stamina. Nor do I think Mingo's was enough to drain his either. I was making a point.



> Law says he needs 100% of his power if he is to fight Doflamingo and doesn't even want to fodder swipe with his DF --> Law gets beaten up by an Admiral+Doffy and has to heavily use his Devil Fruit ability before he gets a chance to fight Doflamingo 1v1.



Heavily use? Where was this heavy usage? All he did was cut a meteor and run like a bitch the entire time. If that's the limit of his stamina then Law has the worse stamina I've ever seen. Meanwhile we have pre skip Luffy fighting tons of fodder, fighting a decently tough fight against Blueno before going G2 an extremely taxing move, and _then_ fighting the fight of his life against Lucci.



> This isn't a coincidence. This isn't something you're supposed to look at and go "nope, means nothing because Doflamingo also used his DF". You're supposed to understand that Law was forced to fight Doflamingo in a suboptimal state and acknowledge that this most likely affected how the fight between them played out. That's why Oda said very specifically that Law needs to be at 100% to fight Doflamingo.



And he was at 100% and got his ass kicked.



> Law and Doflamingo's fight is essentially the exact opposite of what you think it is. If Oda wanted nothing more than to show Doflamingo simply being overwhelmingly superior then he would have had a full power Law get destroyed by Doflamingo. Not had a suboptimal Law drag him all across Dress Rosa before going down. Law is the only one who has fought Doffy with 1) proper knowledge and 2) a means to counter his strings. He was made to be at less than 100% in the fight precisely to keep Doflamingo's strength ambiguous and not so untouchable while still retaining his aura of dominance.



How was he not 100%? He barely used his room and only got a few bruises. Not nearly enough to provide a handicap.

And Oda used that scene to portray that DD was much stronger than Law was. That's why Law needs Luffy's help, he can't do it alone. He's gonna need to rely on Luffy, that's what I'm assuming's gonna be a plot point later on. That's why Law's acting so tsundere towards him atm.

No way is Oda trying to show that Law is on Doflamingo's level. You're delusional if you think so.


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## Shinthia (Apr 20, 2014)

Young Master, r u honestly saying those words or i am just seeing things ? 

Law being handicapped in that fight is beyond obvious man


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## MrWano (Apr 20, 2014)

Do you agree or not agree that he would fare better against Luffy had he actually used his abilities? If he would've, then yeah, that's plot induced stupidity by definition.

*Not necessarily no. The one move I could potentially see being significant would be Barchan(?), but that was never used in the war, so it isn't inconsistent that he didn't use it. It's not game changing anyways. *

What won Croc the first fight was the fact that Luffy literally couldn't touch him. The second fight, he dealt with that with Water Luffy and was able to land a few good shots, but overall Croc overwhelmed him with his abilities, they're were multiple abilities in use that put Luffy on the ropes, the moisture thing was just last gg maneuver.

*First fight, agreed. I disagree, and I believe the second fight would've gone very differently if Croc didn't have the hand attack. The hook is easily as lethal as the other attacks, so I don't think it's an issue. Luffy was just too fast and skilled for him.*

And how did Luffy deal with the moisture draining in the third fight? Refresh my memory.

*By stopping himself before Croc could touch him.*

"Character shields (also known as plot armor or plot shield) are plot devices in films and television shows that prevent important characters from dying or being seriously injured at dramatically inconvenient moments. It often denotes a situation in which it strains credibility to believe that the character would survive."

*Yes? This brings nothing to the table. No point in just writing "plot shield" when it actually can be explained properly through logic. If I think something is nonsense, then I'll say so. If we disagree, then we disagree. A definition can't be brought and simply applied, claiming it to be correct.*

Obviously Luffy can't die, he's the main character and he's supposed to become the PK at the end.

*Except  if his survival can be explained logically, it's a non issue.*

Even if all 3 Admirals showed up at Luffy's front doorstep, plot would intervene and Oda would give him the luckiest situation ever to get out of that so he won't die. That's what Plot Shield is.

*It's funny, because it happened and got solved pretty well.*

Luffy was basically dead until Robin came and saved him. And he was essentially dead again until the water that he spit out conveniently dropped in the same way that it came out and landed exactly on his face making him perfectly rejuvinated.

*Charisma and luck, both prominent in OP.*

If Luffy wasn't the main character he'd be dead, or at least out of the fight for some time. 

*The story is written how it is written. As long as it isn't inconsistent, it's just opinions.*

Lol.

*It's true, and makes it hard to take the debate seriously.*

Do you agree or not agree that if Enel had teleported instead of trying to tank that attack he would've fared better in the end? Cause if you agree then yeah, that was Enel being stupid and Oda was the one that made him stupid so he could be defeated so that's the very definition of Plot Induced Stupidity.

*It doesn't matter whether he would've fared better. He decided to stay because that's how he behaves. Given Enel's personality, it's logical that he decided to take it. It'd be weirder if he didn't. *

I'm not misusing the word plot. Oda writes the story in a certain way for a reason. One Piece is not real life, it's written by an author. The villain was stronger than Luffy and he needed plot help to win. Meaning the author needed to give him a power-up to compete.

*You're under the impression that you believe that whatever interpretation you come up with is the correct one. That's the problem.*


I'm not saying that it isn't fair, but that there was a strong enemy, the enemy was stronger than Luffy, Luffy needed plot help to beat said enemy.

*Then there is no issue. It goes both ways, thus making complaints redundant.*

Same with DD vs Luffy. DD is stronger than Luffy, Luffy needs plot help to beat said enemy.

*He might get help, he might not.*

He was bandaged? I don't see bandages.





*Previous chapter. He was patched up, but not bandaged, true. That was my bad.*

Yeah, it would've helped but not much. Best he could've asked for is the same difficulty Law pushed Doflamingo. Which is low-mid difficulty at best.

*Except Law wasn't close to max power.*

Okay. Smoker didn't get hurt or injured at all during Law's fight. He got his heart taken away.

*Still fought him equally for a while and nearly pinned him down.*

And against Vergo, he got hit from some pretty good shots, but people in OP have been shown to take much much worse and recover pretty quickly.

*But it shows that he could fight him well and that he wasn't all that much weaker. Imo of course.*

Law took a much worse beating against Vergo then Smoker did and he was seen perfectly fine after the rejuvenating soup. And Sanji broke his leg against Vergo and his leg seems fine now.

*I didn't see Law taking an Onitake.*

This is One Piece, people recover from things way quicker then in real life.

*Obviously.*

Just re-read the fight. Yeah you're right.

But still Law's around Vergo's level and got demolished by DD. And since Vergo's stronger than Smoker or at least on his level, he would get the same treatment by DD.

*Already explained my stance on this.*

That scene was shown to show that DD is a strong combatant and that he's stronger than Smoker. And Dressrosa's been consistent with that, with giving him fights against people around Smoker's level and having him defeat them very decisively. His portrayal has been consistently portrayed above M3 level throughout the arc.

*And he has consistently had the situational advantage. Sure, above Sanji and to a lesser degree Smoker (still a decent gap). I disagree with the Law gap being large, obviously. My point is that he's not untouchable for the top of M3 fighters (luffy,law). *

You can't ignore author portrayal when it's the most important aspect in determining the strength differences between people. If Oda wants a certain person to be stronger than another he will attempt to portray that.

*I don't, but if everyone agreed on what Oda tries to portray, we wouldn't discuss power levels.*

If you argue from "feats" perspective instead of looking at want the author's trying to portray then you could easily say that Zoro >>>>>> Kaido because Zoro has better feats. Or that Luffy = Aokiji and he only lost because of lack of knowledge of his devil fruit or some shit like that.

*Straw man.*

He had all his power and he lost with ease.

*Not even close in my eyes. On either of those.*

Not really.

*Yeah, I think so.*

It is comparable. Devil fruits require energy which drain stamina. DD was using his devil fruit quite a bit, almost the entire time. 

*Might want to re-read my explanation. It's more complex than that.*

He used it to fly all the way from Dressrosa to Punk Hazard, he used it to cut up the marines and smoker, he used it fly to Green Bit from Dressrosa, he used it in his fight against Law and to cut up the meteor, he used it the entire time during the whole Sanji ordeal with him staying in the air and then using one of the strongest techniques we've seen from him.

*The Sanji ordeal was seconds, he flew to PH a day ago, GB is right next to DR, Law also cut the metoer (room + cut vs simple string cut) and using Overheat didn't seem to be particularly hard to use.*


Law used his room a few times here and there, but not enough where his stamina reserves would drop significantly more than DD's did.

*Considering who he was up against (Fuji, the strongest on the island), it's safe to say he did. *

He used his room abilities much more in his fight against Smoker and his stamina was perfectly fine, enough to one shot Vergo who specializes in CoA, and a few times here and there after that. So it's not like Law has terrible stamina issues.

* How do you know? He also looked worse after Fuji than after Smoker.*

Prove that statement.

*Already did.*

Law was barely even injured. He was gravity crushed by Fuji which was only strong enough to destroy a small rock. That was only used to hold him down.

*He was dodging meteors left and right beforehand.*

Not enough to significantly handicap him in a fight. People take a shit ton more damage then that in this manga.

*Enough for it to make a significant difference, yes. Otherwise the bridge scene wouldn't have been there.*



^This is what I consider a handicapped injury and still Zoro was able to fight for a considerate amount of time and beat one of Arlong's strongest crew mates.

*That's worse than Law, sure. But then again, so was his performance against Arlong compared to Law vs Doffy. Hachi was.... garbage.*

So unless Law's durability is absolute shit tier then him getting a few bruises is not gonna make a significant difference in a fight.

*Loss of stamina however, will. He won't hit as hard or move/react as fast.*

Also, you agree that Luffy vs Rob Lucci was a fair fight. But before then we have Luffy fighting for a considerate amount of time against a large amount of fodder and then fight against Blueno where he had to use G2 an extremely taxing move, and _then_ he fought Rob Lucci.

*Law immediately went to fight Doffy, Luffy did not with Lucci.*

So if you want to say that Law using his room a few times here and there and getting a few bruises made him significantly weaker and enough to be a handicap for his fight against DD. Then you'd also have to say that Luffy, who fought way longer than Law did throughout the arc should've been significantly handicapped in his fight against Rob Lucci as well.

*Luffy ate and rested afterwards, regaining stamina. He also received no injury before fighting Lucci. And no, I don't think Luffy fighting fodder and garbage like Blueno is comparable to escaping from a top warlord and Fuji.*

Room and handicap stuff.

*Explained my stance on this above. Not gonna repeat myself.*

I'm not saying it'll be the exact same way. My entire point, is that throughout the series Luffy consistently gets help to beat a stronger opponent. I don't see why that'll change now.

*So you agree that the Enel situation is a unique scenario then? And I have explained why I don't think it's that simple. *


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Young Master, r u honestly saying those words or i am just seeing things ?
> 
> Law being handicapped in that fight is beyond obvious man



Doffy would destroy Law and eat that traitorous piece of shit for breakfast. 

Karma's gonna bite Law in the ass soon anyway. Being a bitch and betraying your crew is like the worse thing you can do in OP. Especially when the captain treated you like a little brother and prepared to give you one of the highest positions in the crew.


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## Coruscation (Apr 20, 2014)

> That wasn't my point. I don't think Law using his devil fruit a little bit here and there was enough to significantly drain his stamina. Nor do I think Mingo's was enough to drain his either. I was making a point.



You completely failed to make a point because you tried to equate the situations when they are completely different. That Law using his fruit risks weakening him was told to us. It was never so much as implied let alone told that Doflamingo's does. You can't equate the two in any way at all.



> Heavily use? Where was this heavy usage? All he did was cut a meteor and run like a bitch the entire time. If that's the limit of his stamina then Law has the worse stamina I've ever seen.



Do you intend to have a real discussion or use nonsensical hyperbole and strawmen? Because I'd appreciate it if you made it clear right now if you're going to be making actual arguments or barf biased nonsense. He used his DF to keep running away from both Fujitora and Doflamingo attacking him. Then he used it to escape Fujitora's grasp. After that he used it to save Sanji from Doflamingo and deflect several more meteors. Considering that *even dealing with the fighting fish was something he didn't want to do*, then yes, it is safe to say that all the above drained him of a considerable amount of stamina that he desperately needed to fight Doflamingo. It didn't drain him of all of it. The idea that it put him at his limit has henceforth only existed in your world of idiotic strawmen.



> How was he not 100%? He barely used his room and only got a few bruises. Not nearly enough to provide a handicap.



Quit the intellectually dishonest word-twisting. It's a pathetic debate tactic. Law had suffered clear physical trauma, was bloodied up, sweating and bruised and had spent a considerable amount of stamina. This is relative to how it was explicitly told to us that even dealing with the fighting fish risked handicapping him vs Doflamingo. It's not a matter of debate. Either you accept the manga or you spin your own web of biased nonsense.



> And Oda used that scene to portray that DD was much stronger than Law was



Are you by any chance incapable of understanding how one scene or event can be used to portray more than one thing? Or do you simply pick and choose because you know that actually acknowledging the full breadth of what happened would instantly kill your ridiculous fantasy? The scene showed us multiple things: 1) Doflamingo was clearly outmatching Law in close quarters speed and power and 2) defeated him without any meaningful injuries, _but_ 3) Doflamingo was unable to put Law down quickly and 4) had to chase him all the way from Green Bit to the Colosseum, to which we visibly saw him getting angry, and it's also a fact that 5) Doflamingo only narrowly dodged Law's Scalpel, being graced on the cheek, showing the gap in speed is not huge, and this all 6) despite Law being somewhat injured and having used up a portion of his vital stamina supplies before they even began to fight.

These are all facts. Not simplified one-liners that pick and choose what to see and what to ignore. From all these things put together and of course in conjunction with other showings of Doflamingo we can conclude: Doflamingo is substantially stronger than Law, and by extension people around Law's level, but it is not a huge gap, and Doflamingo is not untouchable to them. This is the reasonable interpretation of the intent behind the sequence of events. Not your simplified idea that "Doflamingo wrecked him he is much stronger nothing more to it" that has to ignore multiple things in order to work.


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## MrWano (Apr 20, 2014)

Oh, and YM, I think I'm gonna stop here. It's clear where we both stand by now and where we agree/disagree. Of course you're free to reply if you want.


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> These are all facts. Not simplified one-liners that pick and choose what to see and what to ignore. From all these things put together and of course in conjunction with other showings of Doflamingo we can conclude: *Doflamingo is substantially stronger than Law*, and by extension people around Law's level, but it is not a huge gap, and Doflamingo is not untouchable to them. This is the reasonable interpretation of the intent behind the sequence of events. Not your simplified idea that "Doflamingo wrecked him he is much stronger nothing more to it" that has to ignore multiple things in order to work.



That's my whole point, lol.

DD >> Law. And since Law is around Luffy's level. DD >> Luffy as well. And Luffy's gonna need plot help to win. 

People were saying that Luffy and Law could beat DD in a fair fight and that DD only won against Law because of Law's stamina issues. I was arguing that Law's stamina shouldn't have significantly dropped by so much that he would get trashed by an opponent that he would normally beat.


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

MrWano said:


> Oh, and YM, I think I'm gonna stop here. It's clear where we both stand by now and where we agree/disagree. Of course you're free to reply if you want.



I was gonna say the same thing, lol.

I don't have the stamina for all this typing.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 20, 2014)

Of course he did.

He created two island sized rooms, cutting, teleporting meteors. Dodging attacks from both, Law was on deaths bead before Doffy.


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## Vengeance (Apr 20, 2014)

Without knowledge? Probably Doflamingo imo, he has the perfect hax fruit to defeat clueless oppponents.
With knowledge Sabo can take this I guess.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Apr 20, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Of course he did.
> 
> He created two island sized rooms, cutting, teleporting meteors. Dodging attacks from both, Law was on deaths bead before Doffy.



and this is only what we saw on panel, with probably a lot more being off paneled.


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## Canute87 (Apr 20, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> That's my whole point, lol.
> 
> DD >> Law. And since Law is around Luffy's level. DD >> Luffy as well. And Luffy's gonna need plot help to win.
> 
> People were saying that Luffy and Law could beat DD in a fair fight and that DD only won against Law because of Law's stamina issues. *I was arguing that Law's stamina shouldn't have significantly dropped by so much that he would get trashed by an opponent that he would normally bea*t.



How can you argue that?  

I mean flamingo completely owned law but if law was at 100% then if flamingo needs a decent amount of difficulty to defeat him that is somewhat realistic to believe.

Is there any reason you think flamingo is on a whole other level?


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## Slenderman (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocktomato said:


> There is literally no point in contributing to a thread like this without reading the rules. If it's just to say who you think wins in two words, nothing is gained. It's like spending money by visiting Argument Clinic from Monty Python: A waste of time for everyone involved. Even this discussion is more interesting than that.
> 
> The only conceivable reason not to want to say why is because you can't think of a reason, in which case the conclusion is flawed by the very way it's reached: Assumption. Contrary to this, your opinion was backed up and thus a contribution to the thread.
> 
> I should hope I come off as extremely condescending to anyone who won't put the slightest effort into backing up their thoughts, because it's the sort of thing that turns a board into a hollow shell. People don't make threads like this for two word responses, they come here for interesting discussions. People can just say 'Sabo wins' or 'Doflamingo wins' if they want, but it's pretty pointless and shows they don't really care, which makes one wonder why they bother visiting the thread at all.



That's there choice. You didn't make the thread so you really shouldn't care whether people explain or not. 

It's uncalled for, to be condescending merely because they didn't give a detailed answer. Nobody here should try to be a thread enforcer and tries to make you give a detailed response. I don't recommend you try to play that part. It annoys others. 

tldr; you don't have to get mad that others don't feel like giving a detailed answer  That's pretty silly imo. Simply accept it and move on, unless you want to wind up on a person's mad/annoyed side sometimes, which is not the purpose of this site.


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## Magician (Apr 20, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> I mean flamingo completely owned law but if law was at 100% then if flamingo needs a decent amount of difficulty to defeat him that is somewhat realistic to believe.



Never disagreed with that.

Just don't think Law's stronger than DD, that's it.


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## Slenderman (Apr 20, 2014)

Law was not on death's door before fighting Doffy  He is now though


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## Dellinger (Apr 20, 2014)

I doubt Corus is saying that Law is stronger than Doflamingo.

Was Law kinda handicapped in his final fight with Doffy?Yes.

Would it change anything if he was at full health?No.

Law knew very well that even at 100%,his chances against Doflamingo were almost non-existent.


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## Rocktomato (Apr 20, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Law knew very well that even at 100%,his chances against Doflamingo were almost non-existent.


He was pretty much just buying time for the Straw Hats to get the job done, which they did. I wouldn't say that any current Supernova had much of chance against Doflamingo - except maybe one with a similarly overpowered devil fruit like Jewelry Bonney, if she got to attack him from behind and turn him into a 6/90-year-old.


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## LunarCoast (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocktomato said:


> Jesus guys, is basic reading comprehension too much for you or something?
> 
> Doflamingo wins. He's on a comparable level to Sabo, his puppeteering powers are just too much against a solo opponent when he sees his enemy coming - as he will - and i'm sure we'll see him getting even more hype in the upcoming chapter(s)



Sabo is the 2nd in command of the revolutionary army.

Sabo would win just on that asset alone tbh.

2ND in command.

I am not saying Doflammingo is weak but seriously Sabo wins especially now he is a logia user and pratically invulnerable to Doglammingo's attacks, plus I would be willing to be bet his fire can destroy the strings.


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## B Rabbit (Apr 20, 2014)

I don't see where it implies that.


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## LunarCoast (Apr 20, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> I don't see where it implies that.



Hence why it's a 'bet' hence a assumption I am making.


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## Shanks (Apr 20, 2014)

YM, had enough of getting gangs huh? Back when he fought Lucci, Luffy had a power up. But guess what, this time if he pulls out gear 4th, that wouldn't be a power up , because Oda has clearly demonstrate to us that Luffy's power is still uncapped. It's clear as day that luffy will beat doflamingo in a fair fight now. Prepare to wear the losing teams set for a week and change your name when that happen.


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## Rocktomato (Apr 21, 2014)

Looks like Doffy is possible-admiral level. Sabo might be strung up and have his jaw kicked in.

Then again, we haven't seen Sabo go all out yet, so he could still win this.


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## Slenderman (Apr 21, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> YM, had enough of getting gangs huh? Back when he fought Lucci, Luffy had a power up. But guess what, this time if he pulls out gear 4th, that wouldn't be a power up , because Oda has clearly demonstrate to us that Luffy's power is still uncapped. It's clear as day that luffy will beat doflamingo in a fair fight now. Prepare to wear the losing teams set for a week and change your name when that happen.



Name change. YM's really betting his name for Doffy losing due to PIS/power up?


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## Bohemian Knight (Apr 21, 2014)

Sabo wins, no doubt. I honestly feel that Sabo w/o fruit would win high diff. With mera mera he mid-high/outright mid diffs. Luffy will not surpass Sabo this arc even if (when) he surpasses Doffy.


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## Captain Altintop (Apr 22, 2014)

DD beats non-DF Sabo very high diff. Being nr.2 =/= being 2nd strongest in the Rev.army. And for his age it would be too soon to overcome DD without any DF. 

Mera Mera Sabo beats DD extreme diff. He is between Jozu and Marco level now.


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## Orca (Apr 22, 2014)

Being no.2 = 2nd strongest. It has been true for every other organization, crew etc. Should be considered the same here until proven otherwise. 

And age is irrelevant here. Luffy wasn't too young for Crocodile, Law wasn't too young for Vergo and Sabo isn't too young for Doflamingo. There is no basis for that.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 22, 2014)

depends. if stretchy kid beats don 1 on 1 without interference, help, or something that would taint it as his victory alone, sabo kills don. in the event rubber bands barely eek out a lucci style victory despite lots of aid, don wins. 

prediction=/
sabo is roughly equal to luffy in haki, inferior in raw strength/durability, vastly superior in skill, slightly ahead in stamina, and now more dangerous with a superior df in his logia.


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## barreltheif (Apr 23, 2014)

Dof will probably win. I expect Sabo to be around Jozu level perhaps, not as strong as Dof.


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## Artful Lurker (Apr 26, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Dressrosa is Alabasta 2.0
> Crocodile = Dofla.
> Ace = Sabo.
> Ace was stronger than Crocodile at Alabasta, so Sabo should be stronger than DD.



Smoker = Fujitora

So was Smoker stronger than Crocodile and Ace?



LunarCoast said:


> Sabo is the 2nd in command of the revolutionary army.
> 
> Sabo would win just on that asset alone tbh.
> 
> ...



Okay lets break it down here

Sabo:

- 2nd in command
- Toyed with Jesus Burges 
- Destroyed an arena 

Doflamingo:

- Stood up to Aokiji
- Was said that admirals would have to be sent if he turned on the government
- Fodderized VA's like Smoker,  Mozambia and Stainless
- Toyed with Jozu
- Destroyed a meteorite


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## Freechoice (Apr 26, 2014)

lol                          .


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## Shanks (Apr 26, 2014)

These posts makes me wonder though... Sabo is portray to be a haki monster and most likely have stronger haki than DD. How would DD hurt Sabo now that he's a logia can should be able to infused his logia body with haki to cancel out any haki attack Dofla slashes him with.


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## MYJC (Apr 29, 2014)

Without Mera Mera - DoFla wins high diff. Sabo (base) isn't THAT much stronger than Luffy and I'm not sure Sabo can counter parasite effectively. If DoFla was able to catch Jozu with Parasite then Sabo certainly isn't immune to it.  With the Mera Mera he can probably take it w/extreme diff. 

Either way, DoFlamingo is no pushover and isn't going down to anybody easily.


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## Artful Lurker (Apr 29, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> able to infused his logia body with haki to cancel out any haki attack Dofla slashes him with.



Has this been done by another logia?


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## Venom (Apr 29, 2014)

Artful Lurker said:


> Has this been done by another logia?



He probably means what Akainu did back then against Marco and Vista.
They used Haki but were not able to hurt Akainu's real body.


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## Artful Lurker (Apr 29, 2014)

Venom said:


> He probably means what Akainu did back then against Marco and Vista.
> They used Haki but were not able to hurt Akainu's real body.



Fair enough I almost forgot about that but tbh I don't think the haki gap between DD and Sabo is that vast and Sabo has nowhere near the control Akainu has over his DF


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## savior2005 (Apr 29, 2014)

sabo becuz hes admiral lvl lol


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## SsjAzn (Apr 30, 2014)

Sabo with high difficulty. Second strongest of the Rev. army shouldn't be significantly weaker than the first strongest. If Sabo didn't have the mera mera, then it'll probably go one way or another.


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