# Star wars universe vs Elder scrolls universe



## Dariustwinblade (Oct 23, 2011)

Standard setting for a full out verse battle.


----------



## SpaceMook (Oct 23, 2011)

Does Elder scrolls have anything on the galactic scale?


----------



## Illairen (Oct 23, 2011)

Star wars can obliterate the world Tamriel is set upon (the planet Nirn) with the deathstar. But doesn`t really matter because they cannot enter Oblivion. 

On the other hand daedra, aedra and other godly entities can enter the SW universe. 
So I`m leaning towards the Elder scrolls universe.


----------



## HiroshiSenju (Oct 23, 2011)

Elder Scrolls verse has high level cosmics and gods with type 4 (or possibly type 5) immortality I believe. Not to mention, the Daedric Lords are massive reality warpers.

I'm fairly confident the ES verse takes this easily.


----------



## Nevermind (Oct 23, 2011)

They can destroy Nirn but I don't think they can do anything to the Aedra or Daedra.


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 23, 2011)

SW verse will easily destroy Tamriel but they cant do anything to Aedra and Deadra, who have gods and lords that posses immortality and reality warping abilities. ES should win.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

>reality warping and cosmics
>Elder Scrolls

Nope. I've played through Morrowind, and Oblivion. Stop wanking it. There isn't even fluff and the most you'll hear is either hearsay or something about Daegon and his brother's being able to screw around in their own Oblivion planes.

That's it.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Oct 23, 2011)

Someone dosent read the lore properly.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

Go ahead and give me quotes and scans then. Because here's the fun part: There is nothing in III and IV that is impressive at all.

Now let's compare that with:

- one main large galaxy
- two darwf galaxies
- multiple dimensions
- abstract beings
- galaxy level telepaths and illusionists
- time and space manipulators
- Lovecraftian space horrors
- weapons of mass destruction that can kill worlds to wipe out multiple star systems

You want to try that again?


----------



## Illairen (Oct 23, 2011)

The Elder Scrolls Universe includes the games Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and various novels. 

Morrowind&Oblivion are just a part of it.

I`m a huge starwars fanboy myself, but they aren`t winning this in my opinion.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

How about showing some proof


----------



## Matta Clatta (Oct 23, 2011)

EpicBroFist said:


> SW verse will easily destroy Tamriel but they cant do anything to Aedra and Deadra, who have gods and lords that posses immortality and reality warping abilities. ES should win.



I'm confused were these characters in Morrowind or Oblivion?


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Oct 23, 2011)

The two gods Anuiel and Sithis are the top-tiers from what i recall

From what i read of them (Assuming the lore is true) they are definetly cosmics


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

Top tier of what? Oblivion and Morrowind literally showed nothing, unless reading random novels count as "feats" in-game.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Oct 23, 2011)

Fang said:


> Top tier of what?



TES-verse obviously


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Oct 23, 2011)

Anyway, i would wait for Gig to give his input on this as he is pretty knowledgeable in TES


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

That's fine, I meant what justifies them being cosmics? They have literally no feats, its all hyperbole like Dagon being the aspect of "fire, bloodshed, earthquakes, and volcanoes", etc...


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Oct 23, 2011)

Fang said:


> That's fine, I meant what justifies them being cosmics? They have literally no feats, its all hyperbole like Dagon being the aspect of "fire, bloodshed, earthquakes, and volcanoes", etc...



Honestly? Nothing concrete

All i have seen is this:


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

Exactly BLS, its just hype in-universe.


----------



## Gone (Oct 23, 2011)

Deadra Lords cannot be killed, so Imma give it to elder scrolls.


----------



## neodragzero (Oct 23, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> Deadra Lords *cannot be killed*, so Imma give it to elder scrolls.



By what? Gonna need to clarify that. All the more so when there are worse things than death in Star Warsverse.


----------



## Gone (Oct 23, 2011)

neodragzero said:


> By what? Gonna need to clarify that. All the more so when there are worse things than death in Star Warsverse.



By anything as far as I know, including magic. If magic cant kill them I dont think that tech can either. Plus Star Wars people cant enter Oblivion, however since theres no magic dragon pact protecting the Star Wars Galaxy Oblivion gates can be opened anywhere. The Death Star wont be of much use if a Gate is opened in the controll room and a bunch of demons pour out.

This gets decided by individuals not starships, and even the most powerful force users I dont think could defeat a Deadra Lord or a Divine.


----------



## Es (Oct 23, 2011)

No limits fallacy much?


----------



## neodragzero (Oct 23, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> SNIP



No limits fallacies and simple ignorance of the ridiculous crap EU Star Wars has. Bedlam Spirits among other things still seem to be raping another verse here.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

"ridiculous eu crap" ?


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2011)

There's at least one clear instance of reality warping on truly massive scale when the Numidium merged ALL possible timelines in a single one at the end of Daggerfall. That's why all endings for that game are canonical in ES lore (although divine intervention screwed Mannimarco over).

And the Numidium isn't even an actual god, it's just a massive Dwemer artifact.

So yeah.


----------



## Gone (Oct 23, 2011)

So if a no limits falacy is true it cant even be argued?


----------



## neodragzero (Oct 23, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> So if a no limits falacy is true it cant even be argued?



It can't be true when it's obvious that said characters have never experienced all of fiction. Magic in one verse isn't always same in another. Ditto on tech.


----------



## Gone (Oct 23, 2011)

neodragzero said:


> Magic in one verse isn't always same in another. Ditto on tech.



Fair enough, in that case I give it to Star Wars because of vastly superios numbers (assuming any deadra killed actualy dies not just respawns in Oblivion like in ES)


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

Daedra aren't as powerful as you think they are


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 23, 2011)

Just to chime in, _Varieties of Faith in the Empire — Brother Mikhael Karkuxor_ it said that "Akatosh is the ultimate God of the Cyrodilic Empire, where he embodies the qualities of endurance, *invincibility*, and everlasting legitimacy." 

Varieties of Faith in the Empire is an in game book that talk about one of the gods. 

IDK if this changes anything.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2011)

Fang said:


> Daedra aren't as powerful as you think they are



The Nine Divines and Daedric Lords are supposed to be more powerful than the Numidium, which can casually warp the universe and is implied to have been the cause of the whole Dwemer race being zapped out of existence (and it'd be capable of that, too). I don't know, seems pretty legit to me...

I mean, Azura had no trouble at all completely changing the Chimer down to their genetic code during what basically was a hissy fit due to the Tribunal blatantly ignoring her cautionary warnings.

And then there's crap like Umaril the Unfeathered and Erandur-Vangaril who aren't even ON the same plane of existence as everyone else most of the time.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

I'm saying provide proof: evidence, scans, not just giving me speculative and in-universe hype bullshit.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2011)

Fang said:


> I'm saying provide proof: evidence, scans, not just giving me speculative and in-universe hype bullshit.



The Numidium merging all timelines was explicitly stated by word of god and is further proved by the fact that events from Daggerfall's various endings are mentioned in Morrowind and Oblivion. Since normally every ending would exclude every other, that's really proof.

And Azura IS also outright stated to have cursed the Chimer.

There's also Vaermina's ability to control your dreams. Whether you wake up from one is really up to her, not you, as Arkved found out the hard way.

And for that matter, Arkved's Tower itself. Jesus, what the hell did he DO to that thing?


----------



## Gone (Oct 23, 2011)

The merging timeline thing may have been the biggest ass pull that Bethesta has ever done. they only really tossed that in there to explain the multiple endings of Daggerfall in continuity.

That being said Deadra Lords are quite powerful, but not as much outside their own realm.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

Post the sources and give me the evidence.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> The merging timeline thing may have been the biggest ass pull that Bethesta has ever done. they only really tossed that in there to explain the multiple endings of Daggerfall in continuity.
> 
> That being said Deadra Lords are quite powerful, but not as much outside their own realm.



And yet they made it canonical, which makes the Numidium just plain retarded power-wise.

I agree that it's an asspull, but they did make it official, so the only thing we can do is suck it up because they aren't changing their minds anytime soon.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2011)

Fang said:


> Post the sources and give me the evidence.





To sum it up, there have been three Dragonbreaks in recorded Tamrielic history, all of them well documented in lore. All of them ended up messing with time and space something fierce.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

So I looked at it...So what? That is literally something to do with the game continuities, even integrated into it, its an aspect of game mechanics. That literally means nothing in a neutral universe setting.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2011)

Fang said:


> So I looked at it...So what? That is literally something to do with the game continuities, even integrated into it, its an aspect of game mechanics. That literally means nothing in a neutral universe setting.



It means that there are things in Tamriel that can screw over the timespace continuum and all within it. If you introduce something like the Numidium or the Heart of Lorkhan in a neutral universe, THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES, because it was their activation that CAUSED the Dragonbreaks in the first place.

If we go by the logic that it doesn't matter, then by that same logic Force powers don't matter because they are in a neutral universe that doesn't follow Star Wars mechanics. You can't have your cake and eat it, it's one or the other, and the other side benefits or suffers from the same stuff as you.


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

Wrong conclusion. Seeing as how we have fluff and actual feats for Force-Users, warships, SW technology, and decades of material to use outside of game mechanics.

In fact you neglected to mention the source for article is that is "some guys who wrote lore books claiming this stuff is true" and some "Imperial histortian" in the source links on that page...in-universe shit once more.

As it stands, the Bedlam Spirits would bend ESverse over backwards.


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 23, 2011)

The elder scrolls side better cough up some evidence or I'm calling bullshit on their argument. And the wiki shit needs to stop.


----------



## Gone (Oct 23, 2011)

Disaresta said:


> The elder scrolls side better cough up some evidence or I'm calling bullshit on their argument. And the wiki shit needs to stop.



And the Star Wars side has offered what proof of their arguments?


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 23, 2011)

Disaresta said:


> The elder scrolls side better cough up some evidence or I'm calling bullshit on their argument. And the wiki shit needs to stop.



Daggerfall is so OLD that providing "sources" is pretty much impossible because back then Bethesda didn't even HAVE a website and got by on interviews to gaming magazines. You know that as well as I do, so stop with the bullshit claims.

Bethsoft did an asspull to make all Daggerfall endings canonical (which is why Mannimarco partially succeeded in his quest to transcend mortality, among other things, which is wholly incompatible with every other ending in Daggerfall), and said asspull, as stupid and contrived as it is, is canon and thus a valid feat for the Numidium.

And we actually see the results of the Tribunal dicking around with the Heart of Lorkhan in Morrowind, so there's that too. Then Dagoth Ur jacked it and we all know how that ended...

As for Vaermina, all you have to do is play the Vaermina daedric quest in Oblivion to see that she does, indeed, have the power to affect your dreams and nightmares and outright stop you from ever waking up - even from behind the Dragonfires, since Arkved stole Vaermina's orb a good deal before the game began, when the Dragonfires were fully active.

There's also Sheogorath dicking around throughout both the game and the Shivering Isles, but Sheogorath is never serious, so there really is nothing to show for his actual power because he keeps faffing around due to being crazy and all - even when he teleports the player in the stratosphere and leaves him to fall to his doom, it's just mild chastisement for having been a very bad boy. It's still fatal to you, mind...


----------



## Nevermind (Oct 23, 2011)

For Azura, it's been a while since I played the game but IIRC the account of her changing the Chimer into the Dunmer is from Vivec's personal accounts that he gives the Nerevarine.


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 23, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Daggerfall is so OLD that providing "sources" is pretty much impossible



So you have no proof? I want more than a wall of txt please. I don give a shit what it is, I just want names so I can check the source personally.


----------



## OS (Oct 23, 2011)

This thread is totally worth the lurk


----------



## Fang (Oct 23, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Daggerfall is so OLD that providing "sources" is pretty much impossible because back then Bethesda didn't even HAVE a website and got by on interviews to gaming magazines. You know that as well as I do, so stop with the bullshit claims.



That is your problem, not mine.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 23, 2011)

What happened to the "Nereverine mathematically proves they don't exist" arguments?


----------



## Darth Xanatos (Oct 24, 2011)

Sorry this thread is really retarded, ESV is ripping SW apart, not even a true contest. 
In this thread it`s like explaining  why Galactus is superior to DBZ verse for hours and people just don`t understand the difference.

 If you insist on it, Goku kamehameha`s Galactus into Oblivion, I`m fine with that, believe what you want, lol.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Cool story bro


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang most of your EU crap, feats comes from the book. You cannot *see* them like the original movie. So they seem more impressive. Despite having no scans you use feats of the beldam spirit. Because the book says so


 You hold those feats as canon. Because they are the word of god"luca arts"

Similarly the book and lore feats of the ESV is canon. And the merging of multiparallel reality warping, dimensional warping, dimensional creation/destruction, multi planar destruction. Multi/Universal level timefuckery all exist. AS PER LORE AND WORD OF GOD (BETHESDA) *until prooven otherwise*.

Using EU bullshit while dismissing the complex lore of the ESseries. Is hippocritical and make your case argument weak.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Oct 24, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> What happened to the "Nereverine mathematically proves they don't exist" arguments?



Pretty simple equation really. Just prove that SW is really a work of fiction

And poof they are erased.

Kinda like the Anti-life eq.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Dariustwinblade said:


> *snip*



Wrong.



> Using EU bullshit while dismissing the complex lore of the ESseries. Is hippocritical and make your case argument weak.



Translation: You have no idea of what your talking about and harping an inane strawman since you feebly have no evidence, proof, or sources to back up Elder Scrolls wank. 

Cry sour grapes somewhere else. In-universe lore which is defined from fucking game mechanics and, get this, a bunch of third person references to an event that may or may not have happened in the game, is not a feat.

This is a fucking feat with evidence:



Keep being wrong.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Oct 24, 2011)

Good thing that SW has visual evidence then


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Oct 24, 2011)

I sense a disturbance in the jelly mein square


----------



## Sygurgh (Oct 24, 2011)

The arguments are amusing.
“You have no idea what you’re talking about…”
“No, YOU have no idea what you’re talking about…”
“You’re WRONG!”
“No, you’re WRONG!”


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

>implying I haven't posted a scan from a comic
>implying that is comparable to running around in circles to crying about trying evade posting interviews or sources for the other side

0/10


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang said:


> >implying I haven't posted a scan from a comic
> >implying that is comparable to running around in circles to crying about trying evade posting interviews or sources for the other side
> 
> 0/10



How the fuck is me being UNABLE to post them due to them being too damn old equal to 'trying to evade'?

"I can not because we're talking about stuff from over a decade ago that is not available in digital form" is not the same thing as "I do not want to". Get it goddamn straight, please.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

That's still your problem, not mine.


----------



## Whimsy (Oct 24, 2011)




----------



## Darth Nihilus (Oct 24, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> Scaaaaans?


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang said:


> That's still your problem, not mine.



And my problem with you is that you are trying to claim that I don't WANT to provide said sources, when I clearly said I CAN'T.

Stop trying to twist my words to suit your needs. If you absolutely can't stand the idea of not being right all the time, then well, guess what? That's your problem, not mine.

And again, there's no magazine source due to age,  but you CAN BLATANTLY SEE THE FACTS IN THE GAME, and game lore is just as valid as anything else since it is an in-game canonical source.

Of course, it's also obvious you never played Daggerfall (or if you did you never played Oblivion and Morrowind, or at the very least outright ignored all pieces of lore and information from those games' books and treatises), otherwise you wouldn't be doing something as retarded as trying to argue the Numidium didn't break time. The mixed timeline by itself, and the fact that the Dragonbreaks are known to warp time and space, AND the fact the Numidium was outright stated in ingame texts to have caused a Dragonbreak when it was fired up... 

Seriously, that's blatant proof, and do note said ingame texts aren't legend books written by some quack priest like the whole Saint Alessa ass-kissing you can find in the churches, they are ingame SCIENTIFIC TREATISES by people from the Mages' Guild studying such phenomena, ie they are basically flavor text from the devs themselves.

The Numidium warping time and space is stupid, contrived and a cop out, but it's also canon. No amount of whining and asking for a source from a decade ago is going to change the backstory in the games themselves. You claiming they are ingame hyperbole is more or less akin to you calling Einstein's theories hyperbole - it's not a bunch of religious zealots saying this, it's the Elder Scrolls equivalent of the goddamn CERN.

And if you know anything about Elder Scrolls mages, then you should know they take their research all too seriously, much like real life scientists, and tend to refrain from flapping their mouths without proof of what they are saying for fear of being discredited - which is why there's so few books about stuff more complicated than Alchemy, and why those few books go into detail over these things.

Seriously, this is the first I hear of someone trying to discredit ingame texts as 'not relevant' in any argument. Going by that logic, anything the author doesn't explicitly say in director's cut interviews is also faff, because after all, the Star Wars movies are supposed to be about "long long ago, in a galaxy far away"... ie, we're seeing a reconstruction of those events, not the events themselves, and distance and time may well have distorted and hyped up the Jedi and Sith. How do we know that the events haven't been reconstructed by a novel Homer who massively overplayed all that crap? And no, Lucas never directly addressed how powerful Jedi and Sith are, he only said 'very powerful' which is vague enough for anyone to build a castle of bullshit over it.

See? I can play the bullshit excuse game too. 

But of course you'll be a broken record and go 'SAUCE' again, because you don't really know how to answer this...


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Not, its still your problem. Nor am I going to take falliable statements that don't have an inkling of fluff to support them.

"Herr author in fictional book within game claims this happened, so we'll take it at face value and completely ignore its one guy claiming something that's completely impossible to verify. Therefore its true because I want it to be true.". That's not the same as actually seeing the feat happen in an image or real book or comic or film.

So keep with your sour grapes.

You know how I know Nihilus can eat worlds populated with natural telepaths and kill the entire planet? Because I can post the fucking scan of him doing it.


----------



## HiroshiSenju (Oct 24, 2011)

The only issue here seems to be a lack of in-game feats for ES-verse. Problem is, this is pretty difficult to do considering everything would be going based off game mechanics for the feats. It does seem kind of unfair to just say "because you have no scans (lolwut? This is a video game) or in-game feats of cosmic level aside from books your argument is invalid."

Don't get me wrong. I can understand the reasoning behind this, as it does seem to accept hype only without true substance and may jump into the no-limits fallacy, but with the ES-verse, the lore is pretty much universally held to be truth. Doubting ES lore is like being an in-game atheist  and there's really no reason to be an ES atheist (lol?) when the existence of the Nine Divines and pretty much every other deity including the Daedra and Anu and Sithis is indisputable. You can say that the only feats for the deities in the ES verse come through hype from books, and this is justified, but you must understand that the Elder Scrolls lore is based almost entirely off of Books! This is Bethesda's way of conveying information of the ES lore in-game. Without books, there is no lore. Without lore, the ES verse does not exist. That would be like asking me to prove the ES verse has gods that created the universe and mer and men rather than evolution. It doesn't make sense with the ES verse because the lore is fact for the ES-verse. Plain and simple.

I'm willing to bet the naysayers have never played the ES games before, and if I am wrong, then I guess you don't understand the essence of the lore. To doubt ES lore would be to reject every continuity in the Elder Scrolls verse and even reject the very history of he verse. The truth is, the lore is all there is. Using game mechanics alone does not satisfy the fullness of the Elder Scrolls universe, and to only adhere to the in-game events for a particular title yet not recognize the very history of the universe in which Mundus lies itself shows ignorance. Sorry 

Note that I did admit that the ES verse does not have sufficient in-game feats, but there is also no reason to doubt the feats in the lore because they are, in fact, the truth. It would be like having a match between the Odyssey verse and another verse. Should we reject all of the feats of the Greek gods which are present simply because they do not perform such feats in that specific work? No, because they are the same there as they are in all the other myths.

That being said, with cosmics like Akatosh, who formed time itself and is virtually invincible, Anu and Padomay (Sithis), and other entities which have even created the sun and stars from the firmament, TES verse rapes. 

Game mechanics (in-game feats) alone, Star Wars wins. Happy?


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

> Not, its still your problem. Nor am I going to take falliable statements that don't have an inkling of fluff to support them.
> 
> "Herr author in fictional book within game claims this happened, so we'll take it at face value and completely ignore its one guy claiming something that's completely impossible to verify. Therefore its true because I want it to be true.". That's not the same as actually seeing the feat happen in an image or real book or comic or film.
> 
> ...



One guy? There's at least *four* distinct books about the Dragonbreaks and the Numidium in Oblivion alone, and at least two more, as well as Yagrum Bagarn and Divayth Fir's conversation topics, in Morrowind. Among others. Does that sound like 'one guy' to you? If it does, then there's a problem, because math isn't an opinion.

The whole point is that MULTIPLE INGAME SOURCES in texts (which by the way have been made and worded that way by the game's developers... you know, the guys who know about that shit) credit the Numidium's activation as causing a Dragonbreak. But I see that point flew at high altitude over your head.

Now I KNOW you are talking out of your ass. Thank you for saving me some time. It's always nice to be 100% sure the other guy is plugging his freaking ears and going LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

Next I assume that Chandra Nalaar can't summon her phoenix familiar and cast Incinerate because she never does it in the books or comics, and it's just flavor text on a Magic card? Even though she's a pyromancer through and through and Incinerate is basically a pyro's bread and butter? Hmm?


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> *I still have nothing to show or evidence to post*




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Matta Clatta (Oct 24, 2011)

I think the point were getting at here is that we need to verify these in game codexes or whatever.

Post some excerpts or videos showcasing said phenomena and the explanation behind it.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Oct 24, 2011)

Nihilus


----------



## River Song (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm doing research currently but If a shaman Initiates wild hunt its a draw.

And since you want proof

The Wild hunt is described in a history  of Daggerfall and it was confirmed that it is actually real when in Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Skyrim it tells us a king of Winterhold was killed during Wild hunt


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Oct 24, 2011)

Yes mein square


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> I think the point were getting at here is that we need to verify these in game codexes or whatever.
> 
> Post some excerpts or videos showcasing said phenomena and the explanation behind it.



Every single book in the game, as far as I know, has been transcribed on UESP, as it is from the game. In fact, I might as well add that UESP's info ALL comes from ingame books and character talk, which is why it's presented as a collection of lore facts rather than theories (and when someone makes a theory, it's clearly marked as such).

But anyway... Some items that discuss the Dragonbreak are as follows:



This discusses the Warp in the West, which caused a major rearranging of the landscape.

Link removed

This actually addresses how everyone has contradictory, yet truthful statements about what happened during the Dragonbreak. Long story short, everyone's telling the truth, because every different variable happened at once. It's messy enough that even Imperial mages get a headache figuring it out.



The three references in the references section go indepth about the Numidium, while the article itself is a summary of what the game says about it. As mentioned, all material in the UESP pages is from ingame material, and wild mass guessing with no proof is strongly discouraged and grounds for banning, so it's actually pretty reliable, in spite of being a wiki.



The Heart of Lorkham article mentions more stuff about the Numidium (which it was meant to power), and how it was part of the Dwemer plans to ascend to a higher plane of existence. Given how the whole Dwemer race was zapped out of existence, OBVIOUSLY someone screwed up, but no one knows what happened for real, including the last living dwarf, Yagrum Bagarn.



The References and See Also sections offer useful indepth insight and excerpts about the Dragon Breaks.

Other references are scattered across the UESP site, since it gathered damn near every single piece of text and dialogue in the ES games.

Of course, you can doublecheck by reading those books in the game itself. I don't have anything that lets me get screenshots, though - I'm writing from a laptop, what do you expect, for me to have a video capture card connected to a 2 year old Toshiba lappy? 

(and even if I did have a video card I have no idea how to operate it, hell I don't even know what one looks like...)


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

> "We need to get out of here," Jacen countered. "Or am I the only one who still feels the Force-call?"
> 
> "No-" Zekk said.
> 
> ...





> Luke continued to look out over the dark water. He had spent the last week deep in meditation, sending a Force-call to the entire Jedi order. It would have been easier to use the HoloNet, but many Jedi-such as Jaina and her team-were in places the HoloNet did not cover. Besides, Luke was trying to make a point, to subtly remind the rest of the order that all Jedi answered to the same authority.
> 
> And the strategy had worked. In every arm of the galaxy, Masters had suspended negotiations, Jedi Knights had dropped investigations, apprentices had withdrawn from combat. There were a few Jedi stranded on off-lane worlds without transport and a couple unable to suspend their activities without fatal consequences, but for the most part, his summons had been honored. Only two Jedi Knights had willfully ignored his call, and their decision had surprised Luke less than it had hurt him.





> Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst, then the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.
> 
> That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.
> 
> ...



Oh me oh my.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

> Darklighter's voice came over the speaker a moment later. "Yes, Colonel?" In the background, Caedus could hear the rumble of discharging turbolaser batteries, and the crackle of shields dissipating exess energy. "We're pretty busy right now, so I hope this isn't another message of congratulations."
> 
> "It isn't," Caedus replied. "I wanted---I needed---to advise you that---"
> " That help is on the way," interrupted a familiar voice behind Caedus. "Be ready to exploit."
> ...



Oh me oh my two.


----------



## River Song (Oct 24, 2011)

The question is how will wild hunt effect the Jedi


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor - six months after RoTJ said:
			
		

> Linked through Kar to Cronal, through Cronal to the Shadow Crown, and through the Crown's ancient powers of Sith alchemy to every Melter mind in every scrap of meltmassif in the galaxy, Luke had shone upon them with the light of the Force. This light had drawn them as moonlight draws a shadowmoth, and they found that its inexhaustible flood could fill them to overflowing. Never again would they feed upon light; there would never be the need. They would forever shine with light of their own.
> 
> And so they came out from every place the Dark had put them.
> 
> ...



Oh me oh my three.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Oct 24, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 











gamelwithchips.gif


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

> He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.
> 
> The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.
> 
> Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.





> Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.
> 
> Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.
> 
> When it was done, the last gap closed, the last rock transformed, the structure securely perched just above the sand on pillars of stone extending down to the bedrock, Luke brought the E-wing down the beach and nestled it in the chamber he had made for it. It was not a door that closed over the opening, though, but a solid wall that closed out not only the wind and the cold, but the world.





> Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.
> 
> But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.
> 
> Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.




*Spoiler*: __ 








It's funny how Luke can project himself and illusions or astral images several hundreds if not thousands of light-years from the Galactic Deep Core to the Outer Rim, seeing as he was Byss at the time and Leia was on Pinnacle Base in the Da Soocha system.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Oct 24, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 










biggestmaybeinthefuckingworld.gif


----------



## River Song (Oct 24, 2011)

Luke can probably not cross dimensions though, eg Oblivion creatures Aedra, Deadra and Daedra lords are all fine.

Then Luke (And everyone else in star wars verse) goes to sleep then he doesn't wake back up Curtosy of Vearmina


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Too bad Luke's mind has crossed dimensions, so can many other Force-Users.

Try again.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Oct 24, 2011)

Also taking in the fact that you have spectres like Marka Ragnos and Sadow who can come back from Hell itself and still operate as if they never left. I.E. Ritual of Essence Transfer and so forth


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang said:


> Too bad Luke's mind has crossed dimensions, so can many other Force-Users.
> 
> Try again.



How often are those dimensions Luke crosses over into a god's personal domain where your reality is rejected and substituted with his own?

Just checking...


----------



## Blade (Oct 24, 2011)

Shitty Scrolls universe loses.


----------



## River Song (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang said:


> Too bad Luke's mind has crossed dimensions, so can many other Force-Users.
> 
> Try again.



Not Dimensions where the Laws of reality are controlled, As soon as he passes over into Any of the planes his mind is at the Daedra's mercy


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> How often are those dimensions Luke crosses over into a god's personal domain where your reality is rejected and substituted with his own?
> 
> Just checking...



>fought off Exar Kun telepathically projecting himself astrally into his dreams
>Mind-fucked Cronal, a powerful telepath, in hyperspace, which is the tachyonic parallel universe at FTL speeds outside of the star system on Mindor
>has sent astral projections across the galaxy and hyperspace more later on
>can be mentally powerful enough that a sentient Force-Using planet considering his perceptions to be above other mortals as humans were like "ants" to him
>mind-fucked UnuThul who had the entire Force potential and sensitivity of the Killick race (numbering in the several trillions and ranging over several star systems)


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

River Song said:


> Not Dimensions where the Laws of reality are controlled, As soon as he passes over into Any of the planes his mind is at the Daedra's mercy



This. Pretty much you can only enter Oblivion and dick around because Dagon doesn't CARE - you aren't a threat to him. In fact, you are basically the tag along, and it's Martin who saves the day. In spite of that you get to be hailed Champion of Cyrodiil, lol.

The Shivering Isles are even worse - Haskill blatantly spells out to you that anything you can do, you can do just because it amuses Sheogorath and he's letting you do it. The moment you actually irritate Sheogorath, he reacts by casually teleporting you in the stratosphere with a thought and letting you fall to his death.

It's not the first time he did it, either, you can visit the place where you die, and it's littered with corpses... most of them guilty of having a beard. Apparently it's a capital offense in the Isles... >_>

You are completely expendable, if you fail he'll just call someone else to him. And in the end you become Prince of Madness yourself because Sheogorath said so, and only because of that.

Then there's Boethia's quest where you are basically prey. You are supposed to impress him by not dying, basically, and if you do he will send you home. If not, well, sucks to be you. Again, there's nothing you can do but obey - his plane, his rules.


----------



## Zaru (Oct 24, 2011)

And pro star wars debaters continue to amaze me with their almost unrivaled ability to come off as complete dicks who can't imagine the concept of their side ever losing.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

And Zaru being frustrated in the OBD never gets old


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang said:


> >fought off Exar Kun telepathically projecting himself astrally into his dreams
> >Mind-fucked Cronal, a powerful telepath, in hyperspace, which is the tachyonic parallel universe at FTL speeds outside of the star system on Mindor
> >has sent astral projections across the galaxy and hyperspace more later on
> >can be mentally powerful enough that a sentient Force-Using planet considering his perceptions to be above other mortals as humans were like "ants" to him
> >mind-fucked UnuThul who had the entire Force potential and sensitivity of the Killick race (numbering in the several trillions and ranging over several star systems)



None of those actually have complete and utter control of the very laws of physics in their own 'plane', you realize. That's what Daedric Planes are. Not just someone's mind, sending astral projections across great distances or messing with a sentient planet - we're talking barging into a plane of existence entirely and solely controlled by a certain being where everything down to even the laws of physics obeys their every whim.

If they want you to become a tree, you become a tree. Because it's their plane, their rules. Is there even a Force in the Planes of Oblivion? They aren't even part of the SW-verse.

And if you argue that the Force is present in universes other than Star Wars even though there's no proof of it being there (and hell, even with proof of things IN STAR WARS being devoid of Force and/or outside it - hi, Yuuzhan Vong!), then I can argue that the Numidium and the Daedra's reality warping reaches all the way to Star Wars, since there's no Dragonfires protecting that verse.

It ends up at the start again.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Good thing the Force exists in multiple dimensions and spans the entirety of an actual universe. And its great that multiple Force-Users have displayed interstellar to galaxy ranging telepathic powers and a host of other abilities.

Elder Scrolls gets bent over backwards.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> None of those actually have complete and utter control of the very laws of physics in their own 'plane', you realize. That's what Daedric Planes are. Not just someone's mind, sending astral projections across great distances or messing with a sentient planet - we're talking barging into a plane of existence entirely and solely controlled by a certain being where everything down to even the laws of physics obeys their every whim.



>ignoring a mortal with no special powers, magic, enhancements or skills can wander through Oblivion gates
>sure as hell would be useful of this bullshit "reality warping" on the Oblivion planes when you routinely in side and story quests venture in those gates with other fodder knights and groups and not get turned into random shit
>no fluff
>no explanation

Stop screwing around I've beaten Oblivion



> If they want you to become a tree, you become a tree. Because it's their plane, their rules. Is there even a Force in the Planes of Oblivion? They aren't even part of the SW-verse.



Grasping at straws. This has never happened nor was ever explained by any NPC character, quest, narration in ES IV. In fact you routinely have fodder fighting in those places and not once is a lick of evidence given to suggest the Deadroth or whatever their called can turn you into stuff.



> And if you argue that the Force is present in universes other than Star Wars even though there's no proof of it being there (and hell, even with proof of things IN STAR WARS being devoid of Force and/or outside it - hi, Yuuzhan Vong!), then I can argue that the Numidium and the Daedra's reality warping reaches all the way to Star Wars, since there's no Dragonfires protecting that verse.



You have no idea what your talking about. I already was suspicious when you thought Traya was impressive in KoTOR II or Nihilus was the end all of top tier Force-Users. The Yuuzhan Vong exist in the Force, the galaxy they hailed from existed in the Force, the galaxy where the two droid races who aren't from the Vong's home galaxy or the GFFA also exists in the Force and so does Zenoma Sekot's parent as was explained by Sekot itself. 

And further lampshaded by Anakin Solo's lambent lightsaber and Jacen's Vongsense.

You have no idea what your talking about when it comes to the EU of Star Wars.



> It ends up at the start again.



Wrong.

Luke mindfucks everything.
Sidious mindfucks everything.
Sadow rips out stars and suns with his magic or the Sith Corsair.
Exar Kun mindfucks everything.
Sekot blasts shit to pieces.
Death Stars.
World Devestators.
Sun Crusher.
Orbital Nightcloak
Millions if not billions of Force-Users for the Jedi and Sith over the entirety of SW continuity.
Celestials.
Abeloth.


----------



## Zaru (Oct 24, 2011)

This news just in, spiral energy exists in Star Wars
Because it spans the entirety of an actual universe in one fiction too


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Funny how I never said that.

"Durr Daggerdoth is canon cause Bethesda can't decide on how continuity in a fiction setting is solely on a single world ends in each game so its multiversal or some shit".

Yeah I'm sure as hell gonna take that at face-value.


----------



## Es (Oct 24, 2011)

The force does spans other dimensions and pocket dimensions, for example Hyperspace, the Netherworld of the force Otherspace etc

I think I misunderstood something nevermind


----------



## Zaru (Oct 24, 2011)

Look I don't give a darn about Elder Scrolls but complaining about the continuity when you're debating for the side of something as royally clusterfucked as Star Wars EU seems a bit

you know

Ironic


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Waru's dimension as well.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Zaru said:


> Look I don't give a darn about Elder Scrolls but complaining about the continuity when you're debating for the side of something as royally clusterfucked as Star Wars EU seems a bit
> 
> you know
> 
> Ironic



But it's not since ironically they have timeline charts for every novel in each era of the series, you wouldn't know that since you don't know shit about EU when it comes to Star Wars. Everything takes place in the same universe, in the same continuity over years and months before the main trilogies.

Go bitch somewhere else about it.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang said:


> Good thing the Force exists in multiple dimensions and spans the entirety of an actual universe. And its great that multiple Force-Users have displayed interstellar to galaxy ranging telepathic powers and a host of other abilities.
> 
> Elder Scrolls gets bent over backwards.



Good thing none of that matters because the moment they try to reach in a Plane of Oblivion, either the local Daedric Lord doesn't care, or they get bitchslapped back out.

I'll reiterate: the major difference is that you're intruding in a God's private playground where what he says goes. It doesn't matter how far away you are, you still need to enter their sphere of influence to interact with them. And when you do you get bent over and get a red hot poker shoved up there, because YOU JUST ENTERED A MAJOR REALITY WARPER'S DOMAIN.

At this point, who you are means exactly squat - barring you being outright omnipotent, you have just put yourself at the mercy of something that, in many cases, doesn't have any, and who controls every single aspect of their universe, including who enters or leaves. You can enter and exit Oblivion, again, because Dagon doesn't give a shit since you are exactly zero threat, and you can enter and exit the Shivering Isles because Sheogorath lets you and has his own plans for you.

Dagon lost because he LEFT Oblivion, and entered the Nine Divines' domain, which made him vulnerable to Akatosh's power. That's pretty much the only reason why Dagon loses at all, and even Akatosh can only seal him back up in his domain and banish him from Tamriel forever because, well... Daedric Lords can't die. Their bodies can, but their essence can't unless they desire so.

Which is basically how Jyggalag dies - the part of him that is Sheogorath wanted him to lose and be killed - which would in turn mean Sheogorath's own death - so Jyggalag got hosed badly enough and Sheo pumped enough plot power into him to let you do it.

A Force user trying to attack a Daedric lord in his reign is about as effective as a peashooter against a M1 Abrams tank - they will just take their attack and make flowers of it. Or something more unpleasant, depending on lord and mood. Or just ignore it.

I could concede the point if the Daedric lords are outside their planes (which they basically never are, even when they could enter ours), but inside their planes, attacking them is pointless suicide.



> >ignoring a mortal with no special powers, magic, enhancements or skills can wander through Oblivion gates
> >sure as hell would be useful of this bullshit "reality warping" on the Oblivion planes when you routinely in side and story quests venture in those gates with other fodder knights and groups and not get turned into random shit
> >no fluff
> >no explanation
> ...



Yeah, that mortal with no special powers? What part of DAGON DOESN'T give a darn BECAUSE YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT TO HIM do you not get?

The only things he's truly concerned with are descendants of the Septims and the Amulet of Kings. Both of which you either aren't or can't use. It's like you telling me "Look, an ant has wandered in your house!" Yeah, it has, big fucking whoop. I could step on it but I just don't care enough for it, what's it gonna do, gnaw a bit on my plants? Why should I care? It can do all of jack and shit to me.

That's the situation between you and Dagon. You can't do shit to him, you pretty much are just a tiny insect to him that's not even worth squashing. You can skulk in his domain all you want, why the fuck should he care? The Dragonfires are down, when you proceed in the game, the number of Oblivion gates actually INCREASES, he'd win if not for Martin using the Amulet to channel Akatosh. It's always Martin that he had his eyes on, your puny skulking ass couldn't be more irrelevant to him if you were invisible.

THAT's how irrelevant you were to Dagon and how little he cared about you walking around Oblivion.


----------



## Es (Oct 24, 2011)

Zaru said:


> Look I don't give a darn about Elder Scrolls but complaining about the continuity when you're debating for the side of something as royally clusterfucked as Star Wars EU seems a bit
> 
> you know
> 
> Ironic



Compared to a lot of comic verses, it's not nearly as much of a clusterfuck as you think


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Good thing none of that matters because the moment they try to reach in a Plane of Oblivion, either the local Daedric Lord doesn't care, or they get bitchslapped back out.



Never happened.



> I'll reiterate: the major difference is that you're intruding in a God's private playground where what he says goes. It doesn't matter how far away you are, you still need to enter their sphere of influence to interact with them. And when you do you get bent over and get a red hot poker shoved up there, because YOU JUST ENTERED A MAJOR REALITY WARPER'S DOMAIN.



Never happened.



> At this point, who you are means exactly squat - barring you being outright omnipotent, you have just put yourself at the mercy of something that, in many cases, doesn't have any, and who controls every single aspect of their universe, including who enters or leaves. You can enter and exit Oblivion, again, because Dagon doesn't give a shit since you are exactly zero threat, and you can enter and exit the Shivering Isles because Sheogorath lets you and has his own plans for you.



Never happened nor claimed by anything or anyone in the DLC.



> Dagon lost because he LEFT Oblivion, and entered the Nine Divines' domain, which made him vulnerable to Akatosh's power. That's pretty much the only reason why Dagon loses at all, and even Akatosh can only seal him back up in his domain and banish him from Tamriel forever because, well... Daedric Lords can't die. Their bodies can, but their essence can't unless they desire so.



Cool no limits fallacy.



> Which is basically how Jyggalag dies - the part of him that is Sheogorath wanted him to lose and be killed - which would in turn mean Sheogorath's own death - so Jyggalag got hosed badly enough and Sheo pumped enough plot power into him to let you do it.



Prove it.

Oh wait that's going to be hard when the entire series is grounded by fucking game mechanics.



> A Force user trying to attack a Daedric lord in his reign is about as effective as a peashooter against a M1 Abrams tank - they will just take their attack and make flowers of it. Or something more unpleasant, depending on lord and mood. Or just ignore it.



No. How about I see "Gods" in ES with actual feats from videos or scans destroying worlds, mind-fucking races, blowing up star systems, eating souls on a planetary scale, moving at FTL speeds, influencing multiple dimensions, and so forth.



> I could concede the point if the Daedric lords are outside their planes (which they basically never are, even when they could enter ours), but inside their planes, attacking them is pointless suicide.



They get ass-fucked in or out of it. And even if I believed 1/10th of the claims your peddling they still get mentally reduced to autistic invalids. 

Hell Abeloth is more impressive even if I accepted 99% of what you said (with again absolutely nothing to show for it other then DURRRRRRR THEY WROTE ABOUT IT IN A BOOK NO NEED TO CROSS-EXAMINE IT!!!!!11111111) who required to be sealed between two fucking black holes, was wounding the Force itself, and completely manipulating an entire planet's evolutionary system and fauna.

As well as eating souls and causing psychosis to Force-Users all over the galaxy.


----------



## Lucifeller (Oct 24, 2011)

> Never happened nor claimed by anything or anyone in the DLC.



What? Now I know you haven't been paying attention. The whole Shivering Isles mess was Sheogorath's plan to stop the Greymarch cycle for good. He may be crazy but he's not STUPID. He spells it out for you basically, in his own insane trolling way, why do you think he leaves you everything you need to kill Jyggalag? You can't be that dense.

Oh wait, you're one of those guys on whom subtlety is lost. Never mind, I'm sure if someone sent you a letter with a skull and crossbones and a bullet in it you'd obviously think nothing of it, purely coincidence amirite?



> No. How about I see "Gods" in ES with actual feats from videos or scans destroying worlds, mind-fucking races, blowing up star systems, eating souls on a planetary scale and so forth.



So you are going to just ignore Vivec blatantly stating that Azura warped the Chimer race into today's Dunmer?

Please note: a WHOLE RACE, warped into their current forms just because Azura was pissed and venting off anger. It's solidly grounded in lore, and confirmed by a major NPC in Morrowind.

Now if you want to call Vivec a liar, it's your fucking business, but at that point you're just being a troll.



> Prove it.
> 
> Oh wait that's going to be hard when the entire series is grounded by fucking game mechanics.



One, you are given a staff channeling Sheogorath's power.

Two, try attacking Dagon at the end of the game.

Notice how NOTHING YOU DO HAS ANY EFFECT aside from a known bugged artifact. He's completely impervious, not only to you but to anyone and everyone else. Jauffre explicitly says, if he's still alive, that no mortal can injure a Daedric prince. Archmage Hannibal Traven says basically the same thing. And this is Dagon OUTSIDE Oblivion.

Jyggalag was stated to be the strongest of the Daedric princes at one time (and a giant jerk to boot), which is why they ganged up and caused him to wax and wane between Sheogorath and Jyggalag - they feared his power. Even as Sheogorath and Jyggalag, he was still among the most powerful, but thanks to the whole Greymarch setup he was eternally locked in battle with himself - to Jyggalag, who was maniacally devoted to order, Sheogorath's realm is naturally anathema. Hence why he destroys it every time. When he's done, Sheogorath returns, and the cycle starts anew. All of this is essentially spelled out to you by various NPCs, Haskill included.

Now, since Jyggalag and Sheogorath are the same being, you're essentially fighting a Daedric lord on his own turf. Given how you can even hurt Jyggalag at all, while Dagon was immune to everything... yeah, it's painfully obvious that you were being helped out.

And unless you want to involve other daedric lords, Sheogorath, who gave you a ton of stuff which helps out and is, after all, THE MASTER OF THE PLACE, is the only one who remains at all since he does want the Greymarch to stop trashing his realm and due to being one half of the same being, well... he can make himself vulnerable or alter the rules passively.


----------



## Fang (Oct 24, 2011)

Notice how no one is going to accept anything you claimed.

Stop responding ad naseum till you show evidence, no one is going to accept your word or interpetion of events. Especially one entirely again, grounded by fucking game mechanics and limited to sword and shield feats. Protagonist in his best armor at the end of Oblivion can still be killed by a mudcrab.

At this point, I'm not paying attention to your claims.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 24, 2011)

Fang frustrated


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 24, 2011)

Six pages...no actual ES feats...

Star wars wins.


----------



## The Determinator (Oct 24, 2011)

Elder Scrolls is a game purely decided by the fans, hence...*Roleplaying* game. Whatever the player does in the game can be *canon*, the fact the games lore is written by mostly books proves it, because the designers want the fans to come up with their own experience. So if I want to make my character impervious to anything  I *CAN *do that because its my character.

But then again, what exactly are we arguing over,?


----------



## Es (Oct 24, 2011)

Telling if Elder Scrolls has actual feats or just hype.

It's leaning towards the latter


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 24, 2011)

^ not what you think we are

Edit: ninja'd


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 24, 2011)

I can post some Book scans, though they only posses Lorkhan(a low tier God) and an overview of the realms of the Daedric Princes. If Anyone wants me to.


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 24, 2011)

EpicBroFist said:


> I can post some Book scans, though they only posses Lorkhan(a low tier God) and an overview of the realms of the Daedric Princes. If Anyone wants me to.



That's all that's being asked for.


----------



## Lina Inverse (Oct 24, 2011)

just put in a quote from the ES books or something


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 24, 2011)

Disaresta said:


> That's all that's being asked for.



Lorkhan.....



Book of Daedra(this only describes the Daedra princes and their realms) IDK how useful this would be for the debate but they were arguing about this, there are some feats I guess .......


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 24, 2011)

Are the books the only thing to go by? Sounds like religious hyperbole.

Thanks for the effort by the way.


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 24, 2011)

Lina Inverse said:


> just put in a quote from the ES books or something



I could do that but would it suffice as evidence? Here in an exert from _Varieties of Faith in the Empire_ about two other gods...



Varieties of Faith in the Empire said:


> Akatosh (Dragon God of Time): Akatosh is the chief deity of the Nine Divines (the major religious cult of Cyrodiil and its provinces), and one of two deities found in every Tamrielic religion (the other is Lorkhan). He is generally considered to be the first of the Gods to form in the Beginning Place; after his establishment, other spirits found the process of being easier and the various pantheons of the world emerged. He is the ultimate God of the Cyrodilic Empire, where he embodies the qualities of endurance, invincibility, and everlasting legitimacy.
> Alduin (World Eater): Alduin is the Nordic variation of Akatosh, and only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Nine Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, 'the world eater', comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse. He is not the chief of the Nordic pantheon (in fact, that pantheon has no chief; see Shor, below) but its wellspring, albeit a grim and frightening one.


----------



## dream (Oct 24, 2011)

I figured that I should provide some information on the immortality of the Gods in The Elder Scrolls series.  



Not really sure how great that would be considered.


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 24, 2011)

Disaresta said:


> Are the books the only thing to go by? Sounds like religious hyperbole.
> 
> Thanks for the effort by the way.



The Daedra actually have feats because when you visit their shrines they can teleport you to the Daedra realm and one even allows you to come back to life after you are killed(if memory serves right), they also have shown control over the mortal realm. Also Shaegorath does have feats(In person mind you) but the only problem is that he never tries, I could give you a link to a play-through of the shivering isles if you want to waste several hours of you life watching that. Akatosh does make an appearance also but its short and all he does is kick some demon ass. Though the books that I posted don't have any authors which could imply something. 

Umaril an Ayleid sorcerer has some nice feats, The only way to kill him is by killing him in his mortal body and then his spirit(the only way being with a specific Divine armor), And the fight goes on in the stratosphere. So he basically has a form of Immortality(whenever he gets killed his spirite enters the Daedric realm and later returns, this is because of Meridia a Daedric Prince) that can only be destroyed through the access of divine artifacts and hes not even a A Daedric prince let alone a God.   


Thanks for the compliment.


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 24, 2011)

Well I cant find anything disputable about what you two have posted,s omeone else might though. I'll concede then. Not that I was a major piece of this debate anyways.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 25, 2011)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Also taking in the fact that you have spectres like *Marka Ragnos* and Sadow who can come back from Hell itself and still operate as if they never left. I.E. Ritual of Essence Transfer and so forth


----------



## Gone (Oct 25, 2011)

I reserve the right to necro this thread and change my stance in two weeks after Skyrim comes out, if Alduin turns out to be as badass as is being speculated.


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 25, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> I reserve the right to necro this thread and change my stance in two weeks after Skyrim comes out, if Alduin turns out to be as badass as is being speculated.



I reserve the right to call out your inability to provide actual evidence.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 25, 2011)

Well, I was hoping not to get involved in this, as it looks like quite a mess...

But what exactly do you want evidence for?


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 25, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Well, I was hoping not to get involved in this, as it looks like quite a mess...
> 
> But what exactly do you want evidence for?



I gather from what I've observed(haven't really been a major part of this myself) that the side arguing for SW is not satisfied with the ES inability to provide actual evidence beyond spoken and written hyperbole. They also seem to like to dish out word of god said that so its true, which of course is not allowed here(baring novels?).


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 25, 2011)

So... you basically want proof for every claim?


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 25, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> So... you basically want proof for every claim?



I got what I wanted 

I cant speak for the others...


----------



## Gone (Oct 25, 2011)

Disaresta said:


> I reserve the right to call out your inability to provide actual evidence.



Ummm, what?

What claim did I actualy make that required evidence? In fact what I just said was that I was gonna be gomming back in 2 weeks when evidence actualy is released.

In fact if you read the posts I actualy said atm I was on the Star Wars side.

Troll Moar.


----------



## Nevermind (Oct 25, 2011)

Eh, here's Vivec's note to the Nerevarine, or at least part of it, regarding how Azura changed all the Chimer into Dunmer (among other things). I almost think it folly to get involved in a thread that's become a major shitstorm, but whatever.



> For some years we kept the oaths we swore to Azura with Nerevar, but during that time, in secret, Sotha Sil must have studied the tools and divined their mysteries. And at last he came to us with a vision of a new world of peace, with justice and honor for nobles, and health and prosperity for the commoners, with the Tribunal as immortal patrons and guides. And dedicating ourselves to this vision of a better world, we made a pilgrimage to Red Mountain and transformed ourselves with the power of Kagrenac's tools.
> 
> And no sooner than we had completed our rituals and begun to discover our new-found powers, the Daedra Lord Azura appeared and cursed us for our foresworn oaths. By her powers of prophecy, she assured us that her champion, Nerevar, true to his oath, would return to punish us for our perfidy, and to make sure such profane knowledge might never again be used to mock and defy the will of the gods. But Sotha Sil said to her, "The old gods are cruel and arbitrary, and distant from the hopes and fears of mer. Your age is past. We are the new gods, born of the flesh, and wise and caring of the needs of our people. Spare us your threats and chiding, inconstant spirit. We are bold and fresh, and will not fear you."
> 
> And then, in that moment, all Chimer were changed into Dunmer, and our skins turned ashen and our eyes into fire. Of course, we only knew at that time that this had happened to us, but Azura said, "This is not my act, but your act. You have chosen your fate, and the fate of your people, and all the Dunmer shall share your fate, from now to the end of time. You think yourselves gods, but you are blind, and all is darkness." And Azura left us alone, in darkness, and we were all afraid, but we put on brave faces, and went forth from Red Mountain to build the new world of our dreams.



Those are the relevant passages, but the .

I'll see if I can find the one regarding how all the Dwemer instantly vanished (save Yagrum Bagarn).

Edit: Ryjacork, just leave the thread please.


----------



## The Determinator (Oct 25, 2011)

This is what happens when you attack Sheogorath. 

Link removed


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 25, 2011)

Disaresta said:


> I gather from what I've observed(haven't really been a major part of this myself) that the side arguing for SW is not satisfied with the ES inability to provide actual evidence beyond spoken and written hyperbole. They also seem to like to dish out word of god said that so its true, which of course is not allowed here(baring novels?).



Outside of Books(which are cannon) the shown feats are aren't that high in ES verse when compared to the writings. The best shown feats are dimensional travel/Control, immortality, soul Fuckery, teleportation, and a variety of Magic. 

So which way has this thread went? Who is winning?


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 25, 2011)

EpicBroFist said:


> So which way has this thread went? Who is winning?



The shitstorm won, all other parties have been massacred. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Honestly though I dont think any true consensus was met.  Though I'm partial to believe ES did, against my better judgement.


----------



## Casshern (Oct 25, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> What happened to the "Nereverine mathematically proves they don't exist" arguments?



I was wondering about this too, this user seems to know a lot about ES so I brought some of his quotes:



Gig said:


> The Nerevarine with prep is completely immune to physical attacks and super natural abilities meaning he's invincible to anything in DBZ, he is also strong enough to lift billions of tons and is fast enough to move across a 16 kilometer island in seconds, he can also replicate these abilities on others with his magic and can summon infinite fodder to do this on, though it can takes time
> 
> Oh yeah did I mention by power scaling he can erase you from existence with math





Gig said:


> The Nerevarine has 100% immunity to physical attacks and energy attacks they can't do shit to him despite there superior raw power, he then casts control humanoid on them and makes them kill each other GG ?





Gig said:


> Link removed
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can the SW survive this?


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 25, 2011)

So much fucking wank in that.


----------



## Casshern (Oct 25, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> So much fucking wank in that.



I just found some quotes, not sure if they are true or not.

So you are saying this is wank? can you bring the correct info?


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 25, 2011)

The only thing that *may* be true is the 'proving you don't exist' part.  I say *may* because the person in the story exists in-game.


----------



## Nevermind (Oct 25, 2011)

All of those were from a really old thread of mine.

Eh, I say let this thread die.


----------



## Casshern (Oct 25, 2011)

So we can't say he can prove the SW doesn't exist?


----------



## Disaresta (Oct 25, 2011)

Casshern said:


> I just found some quotes, not sure if they are true or not.
> 
> So you are saying this is wank? can you bring the correct info?



There are people on the last page who provided actual in game evidence(sort of)


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 25, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> The only thing that *may* be true is the 'proving you don't exist' part.  I say *may* because the person in the story exists in-game.



Akotosh exists in Game  also all of the Daedric Princes  ..... Shoegorath


----------



## Casshern (Oct 25, 2011)

Disaresta said:


> There are people on the last page who provided actual in game evidence(sort of)



They didn't talk about the Nerevarine, that is why I brought the quotes.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 25, 2011)

EpicBroFist said:


> Akotosh exists in Game  also all of the Daedric Princes  ..... Shoegorath



You do, of course, know I'm an Elder Scrolls fan who hasn't argued with the rest of the shit in this thread because I also know it's true but find it impossible to prove, right?

That I'm only debunking the obscene NLFs and shit that might not even be true within the lore, right?


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 25, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> You do, of course, know I'm an Elder Scrolls fan who hasn't argued with the rest of the shit in this thread because I also know it's true but find it impossible to prove, right?
> 
> That I'm only debunking the obscene NLFs and shit that might not even be true within the lore, right?



I know, I just wanted to say it. This thread has gotten way out of hand. I agree with you.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 25, 2011)

We just can't prove any of what _is_ true.


----------



## EpicBroFist (Oct 25, 2011)

True, but there are still some shown feats that are pretty good mainly from Shaegorath, Umril, and some of the Daedric princess. I do agree without the books we cant prove what _is_ true.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Nov 11, 2011)

Bumped for 11.11.11


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> The Nine Divines and Daedric Lords are supposed to be more powerful than the Numidium, which can casually warp the universe and is implied to have been the cause of the whole Dwemer race being zapped out of existence (and it'd be capable of that, too). I don't know, seems pretty legit to me...
> 
> I mean, Azura had no trouble at all completely changing the Chimer down to their genetic code during what basically was a hissy fit due to the Tribunal blatantly ignoring her cautionary warnings.
> 
> And then there's crap like Umaril the Unfeathered and Erandur-Vangaril who aren't even ON the same plane of existence as everyone else most of the time.


The Construction set and console commands are canon in The Elder Scrolls, there is a first hand piece of dialogue from Vivec who claims that he and the other members of the Tribunal managed to access it, there is a book in game that tells you how to access both console commands and the Construction set. 

It is stated that someone who learns how to access it can change reality at will, and that time and space have no meaning to them until they decide to re-enter the world. In short the Nerevarine, Champion of Cyrodrill, The Tribunal (Prime), Dovakim can simply temporally ascend access the construction set and simply delete there opposition, or if you want to argue that they can't delete Star Wars fair enough they enter the construction set and make a bomb that erases the multiverse except for themselves. 

So as soon as they de-ascend the bombs goes off and wipes out everything in the cosmos except for themselves and they win.



Dandy Elegance said:


> So much fucking wank in that.


You realise Dandy wank only applies if I provide no proof to my claims or over hype what happens, in that book, it is clearly stated that he erases them from existence using fortify intelligence meaning it happened, as such it can't be wank as it indeed happened.


----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

How about again you post evidence before you claim something


----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

Gig said:


> The Construction set and console commands are canon in The Elder Scrolls, there is a first hand piece of dialogue from Vivec who claims that he and the other members of the Tribunal managed to access it, there is a book in game that tells you how to access both console commands and the Construction set.



Bullshit.



> It is stated that someone who learns how to access it can change reality at will, and that time and space have no meaning to them until they decide to re-enter the world. In short the Nerevarine, Champion of Cyrodrill, The Tribunal (Prime), Dovakim can simply temporally ascend access the construction set and simply delete there opposition, or if you want to argue that they can't delete Star Wars fair enough they enter the construction set and make a bomb that erases the multiverse except for themselves.



Game mechanics and bullshit.



> So as soon as they de-ascend the bombs goes off and wipes out everything in the cosmos except for themselves and they win.



Cool story with the wank, now prove it.



			
				TES Skyrim Wikia said:
			
		

> Game mechanics are the "artistic license" properties of the game that separate any computer game from reality and serve to make one more playable and enjoyable; for example the Hero of Kvatch carrying 10 weapons simultaneously, fully and immediately recovering from wounds simply by waiting for an hour, bodies of defeated enemies disappearing etc., are things not realistically possible. Health, Magic points, and fatigue are also game mechanics.





> On the other hand, ambiguity is maintained when it comes to alternative choices and solutions to puzzles with the same outcome. For example in The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, which Daedric artifact you give to Martin in the main quest is up to the player; and none of them can be taken for sure to be the 'true' one.



lol.


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)




----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

Which is a shame when Todd Howard completely retcons everything from say, Oblivion with Skyrim.

So yeah, suffice to say I don't believe you or trust that link worth a shit, especially when all TES fans have an annoying tendency to never ever offer up proof, evidence, scans, and try to justify everything with bullshit game mechanics.

Or claim very very ambiguous in-universe lore which isn't even seen, only viewed afterwards by anonymous authors is also "completely valid".

Face it, you aren't winning anyone over with this stuff Gig.


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Vivec is an anonymous author ?  

How is everything from Oblivion retconned with Skyrim ?


----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

Why is it I see so many TES tards bitching about retcons on their boards then since Skyrim came out? 

I don't particularly care but either way your bullshitting with the console commands, I guess it hurts not having much in the way of fluff to actually back up anything.

"Hurr durr I don't have to prove it, you have to prove otherwise cause I don't have any actual thing, Mehrunes Dagon is a near omipotent".

Here's the best from Skyrim:

- Protag can devour dragon souls, and only dragon souls to prevent them from reincarnating.

- Pesiji Order main guy in the College of Mages faction can apparently stop time for a short while and project himself from somewhere and they can teleport over unquantifable distances.

- One of them dragon shouts can let the user/Dragonborn temporarily slow down time or move himself faster that appears to slow down time, its not clear either way.


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Fang said:


> I don't particularly care but either way your bullshitting with the console commands, I guess it hurts not having much in the way of fluff to actually back up anything.


There is plenty of fluff, you just never accept anything that doesn't benefit your argument I could post a scan of someone destroying the universe and you'd still discredit it with some stupid reason. 

Facts are that Vivec attained CHIM which is complete mastery of the universe, which allows him to casually warp reality change anything at will, it is hinted at in game that this is using the construction set. 

But even if you discredit the construction set part Vivec can still do it, unless Star wars can defeat a being who is at the very least a casual universal/multidimensional reality warper they can't do anything to him.


----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

So where is that evidence again?

And bullshit, all I've seen from this side is damaged bullcrap of "it was written in a TES lore-book in universe, therefore its credible. Even if no one was around to verify it, and half the time people have aruged against it. "

Also again:

- Hi Abeloth
- Hi Celestials
- Hi Zenoma Sekot
- Hi super races that can life-wipe entire galaxies like what happened to the Yuuzhan Vong home galaxy
- Hi Bedlam Spirits
- Hi Force Demons



> Facts are that Vivec attained CHIM which is complete mastery of the universe, which allows him to casually warp reality change anything at will, it is h*inted at in game that this is using the construction set.*



Like I said, game mechanics.


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Fang said:


> So where is that evidence again?
> 
> And bullshit, all I've seen from this side is damaged bullcrap of "it was written in a TES lore-book in universe, therefore its credible. Even if no one was around to verify it, and half the time people have aruged against it. "


Your argument is really desperate, considering you're aren't even trying to debate a way to defeat Vivec now all you're trying to do is discredit his abilities. By calling them game mechanics or stating that in game books on lore are none canon. 

I've seen the strategy used hundreds of times, you simply a lack a way to bring up a valid way for Star wars to win, and you are to much of a SW fan boy to simply accept defeat. 



Fang said:


> Also again:
> 
> - Hi Abeloth
> - Hi Celestials
> ...


What can any of those things do against Vivec he can erase them from the universe and they can't do anything against them as he knows there nothing more than fictional beings like himself   
Vivec discovered the secret of the universe which allows him to control it as he knows everything is him and he is everything, but he can still say I am. 



Fang said:


> Like I said, game mechanics.


How is it game mechanics, when he uses CHIM background/fluff  ? 

It is only game mechnics when a player character uses it as there is nothing to suggest they gained the powers of CHIM (potentially construction set) but Vivec canonly has the powers.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Nov 19, 2011)

Remember Star Wars propaganda is unquestionably false and the Jedi holocrons are unquestionably true so..........

The conclusion we can draw is that TES Lore books are propaganda that cannot possibly be true.


----------



## Guru (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't know much about either. 

I've seen the starwars films, but I like this debate, though I would like to chi pin to gig/fang that if an author credited by the creators of the game writes a book of lore then it's canonical. It's no different to the many books of star-wars etc that exist outside the original six films.


----------



## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Nov 19, 2011)

Elder Scrolls verse takes this easily. I know that's hard to understand for some but once you have reality warpers that can affect the entire universe you are just not winning this.


----------



## Darth Xanatos (Nov 19, 2011)

Just a dumb question, I believe TES verse wins, but....

Why did Vivec have that much problems with Dagoth Ur if he`s a reality warper?


----------



## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Nov 19, 2011)

Lichtkrieger said:


> Just a dumb question, I believe TES verse wins, but....
> 
> Why did Vivec have that much problems with Dagoth Ur if he`s a reality warper?



Because he reached CHIM after the main story was over.


----------



## Darth Xanatos (Nov 19, 2011)

Kamen Rider Ryoma said:


> Because he reached CHIM after the main story was over.



Is this revealed in Skyrim? I`m just level 5 in Skyrim and in the TES wiki is stated that Vivec lost all his divine powers after the heart of Lorkhan was destroyed. So he got his divine powers back somehow and even increased them ? Perhaps they just didn`t actualize the wiki.


----------



## AngryBadger (Nov 19, 2011)

So, SW wins right? Weird, Im reading a Star Wars book right now right after I played some Skyrim.



Dandy Elegance said:


> Well, I was hoping not to get involved in this, as it looks like quite a mess...
> 
> But what exactly do you want evidence for?



Hey Dandy, how's it going


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Lichtkrieger said:


> Is this revealed in Skyrim? I`m just level 5 in Skyrim and in the TES wiki is stated that Vivec lost all his divine powers after the heart of Lorkhan was destroyed. So he got his divine powers back somehow and even increased them ? Perhaps they just didn`t actualize the wiki.


No CHIM is something else, he lost the divine powers because the plot   required him to, he will lose them many times again as more Nerevarine raise up to conquer the world (complete the game) and he will strike down Nerevar as many times as it takes. For betraying and killing Nerevar is what allows you the player character to assume the role of the Nerevarine if he didn't kill Nerevar you couldn't be the Nerevarine.  

Simply put Vivec works on a level he exists out side of time, what you meet in game he is just an avatar you can kill it, but you don't kill Vivec the avatar isn't really him just like how you are not really the character you play as, if your character is killed you reload. 

He mentions this in his 36 Sermons he is aware of himself as a fictional character, which gives him power of the universe in which he is apart, he can enter the realm of the Godhead where he can see the names of all things that exist with in it and change it at will (Godhead = code of the universe = construction set) 

Basically he canonly has the ability to delete characters/erase them from the code of the universe, in short what happens if he deletes/erases someones data from the construction set they cease to exist within the universe. 

Read this it explains everything much better than I can. 
the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-3


----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

Gig said:


> *snip*



I'm asking for a verified proof and evidence, not bullshit speculation. Your arguments are almost as bad as Lucifeller. "I don't have to prove anything, this bullshit book in-universe that has never ever been verified but since some ambigious game only context Daggerfell dragon break shit happens, everything is true".



Kamen Rider Ryoma said:


> Elder Scrolls verse takes this easily. I know that's hard to understand for some but once you have reality warpers that can affect the entire universe you are just not winning this.



Prove it.


----------



## Darth Xanatos (Nov 19, 2011)

Gig said:


> No CHIM is something else, he lost the divine powers because the plot   required him to, he will lose them many times again as more Nerevarine raise up to conquer the world (complete the game) and he will strike down Nerevar as many times as it takes. For betraying and killing Nerevar is what allows you the player character to assume the role of the Nerevarine if he didn't kill Nerevar you couldn't be the Nerevarine.
> 
> Simply put Vivec works on a level he exists out side of time, what you meet in game he is just an avatar you can kill it, but you don't kill Vivec the avatar isn't really him just like how you are not really the character you play as, if your character is killed you reload.
> 
> ...



Ok thank you very much I will read that =)


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Fang said:


> I'm asking for a verified proof and evidence, not bullshit speculation. Your arguments are almost as bad as Lucifeller. "I don't have to prove anything, this bullshit book in-universe that has never ever been verified but since some ambigious game only context Daggerfell dragon break shit happens, everything is true".
> 
> Prove it.


Proof has been provided multiple times you're either, don't understand what you are reading, won't read it or simply refuse to accept it as proof to persist as you can't accept your beloved Star Wars is out matched. 

Unless you can provide evidence that anyone or thing in Star Wars can defeat someone who has archived CHIM, you really should just accept that Star Wars has lost. 

Because I'm quite sure nothing in Star Wars can defeat someone who can change/alter reality at will  ignore death as they can simply return to any point in there past to change events until a satisfactory outcome is achieved.


----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

Gig said:


> Proof has been provided multiple times you're either, don't understand what you are reading, won't read it or simply refuse to accept it as proof to persist as you can't accept your beloved Star Wars is out matched.



Would love to, except you never provided it even in that link you posted. Oh wait that was just subjective metaphorical connections to vague lore in TES. I guess that sure showed me.



> Unless you can provide evidence that anyone or thing in Star Wars can defeat someone who has archived CHIM, you really should just accept that Star Wars has lost.



Too bad that hasn't happened.



> Because I'm quite sure nothing in Star Wars can defeat someone who can change/alter reality at will  ignore death as they can simply return to any point in there past to change events until a satisfactory outcome is achieved.



1. You haven't provided anything.
2. Your link was ambiguous and lore driven bullshit.
3. There are divine beings in Star Wars (Bedlam Spirits who can warp reality, matter and time)
4. Celestials and other super races
5. No proof to anything, no context, in-universe lore is dismissive. 

Want to go do this again?


----------



## Illairen (Nov 19, 2011)

Fang said:


> 3. There are divine beings in Star Wars (Bedlam Spirits who can warp reality, matter and time)




Do you have proof that bedlam Spirits are reality warpers?


----------



## Fang (Nov 19, 2011)

also:



> When Ben Skywalker and Luke Skywalker transended into the Lake of Apparations with the Mind Walkers they told the Skywalkers that when they had invited Jacen Solo to swim in the lake, *he had declined their offer, and told them that he did not want to become like the Celestials, and have all of the knowledge of the universe *.



lol.


----------



## Illairen (Nov 19, 2011)

Fang said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Ok that convinces me, thank you for the proof.  I change my mind, Star Wars takes this.


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 19, 2011)

Gig said:


> Because I'm quite sure nothing in Star Wars can defeat someone who can change/alter reality at will  ignore death as they can simply return to any point in there past to change events until a satisfactory outcome is achieved.



And all of the Daedric Princes and Aedra would be above this, correct? Since Azura has made Vivec her bitch before in that note I posted earlier for instance.


----------



## Gone (Nov 19, 2011)

We know that the Elder Scrolls themselves can warp time now. Still not clear on exactly what Bedlam Spirits are.


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> And all of the Daedric Princes and Aedra would be above this, correct? Since Azura has made Vivec her bitch before in that note I posted earlier for instance.


Vivec made a joke out of Azura, in his trial he casually stripped her of her powers to show her how out matched she was before banishing her to Oblivion. 

Other than Talos (Who also has the power of CHIM), the player characters and God he is stronger than everyone in the Elder Scrolls, simply because he can access the Godhead which is where the memory of God remembers everything that exists, which in game mechanic terms is the construction set/moding tool. 

You see the Elder Scrolls universe is the dread of God, when you attain CHIM you realise this and figure out that you are just a fictitious being who is part of God meaning everything is also part of you, despite this you are still self aware and can identify yourself with I am, because you know that you are God and God is everything you can access the Godhead. 

While accessing the Godhead you can manipulate it, to your will just like a player can by opening the construction set, so in short he can change things to his will  by or simply delete people by changing God's memories or by making him forget people or things exist. 

Killing him is pointless as he has transcended being just a physical being he is God and God is him, he can simply go back to a previous memory and continue to live in his past where he can change things if he desires.


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 19, 2011)

Damn did I miss something really major in Morrowind, or is this recent? Cause that note about Red Mountain written by Vivec has him afraid of Azura along with Almalexia and Sotha Sil.

...Unless that was just the avatar figure.


----------



## Gone (Nov 19, 2011)

Gig said:


> Vivec made a joke out of Azura, in his trial he casually stripped her of her powers to show her how out matched she was before banishing her to Oblivion.
> 
> Other than Talos (Who also has the power of CHIM), the player characters and God he is stronger than everyone in the Elder Scrolls, simply because he can access the Godhead which is where the memory of God remembers everything that exists, which in game mechanic terms is the construction set/moding tool.
> 
> ...



What!?

When did any of that happen? I feel suddenly like I am very very lost...

Its true that Vivec drew his power from the heart of Lorkhan, whos power is most prominent on Nirn because he gave up his divinity and his life in its creation (IE he became the planet). But most of what you just said is new to me, is this all specualtion or is there something to back that up?


----------



## Gig (Nov 19, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Damn did I miss something really major in Morrowind, or is this recent? Cause that note about Red Mountain written by Vivec has him afraid of Azura along with Almalexia and Sotha Sil.
> 
> ...Unless that was just the avatar figure.


Just his Avatar his avatar is made to be as strong as necessary, it doesn't need to be more powerful for he has no desire to conquer as such he plays his role as it is required until the ruling King can defeat Dagoth Ur the ruling king is the Nerevarine, who is player. 

CHIM is from the 36 Sermon's of Vivec and also from this, which is written by one of the Elder Scrolls developers.




Here is the trial of Vivec where Vivec puts Azura in her place.


----------



## Fish127 (Nov 19, 2011)

Wtf are you two talking about. That thread you linked was some role play thing that says right at the top its not canon. Are we still debating here or what?


----------



## Gone (Nov 19, 2011)

Fish127 said:


> Wtf are you two talking about. That thread you linked was some role play thing that says right at the top its not canon. Are we still debating here or what?



Yes I am a tad confused as well...


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah after rereading it again it's only listed as "semi-official." So that Vivec owning Azura shit isn't usable.

Anyway I think I'm gonna get Xellos or willy to lock this cause it's just a mess.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Yeah after rereading it again it's only listed as "semi-official." So that Vivec owning Azura shit isn't usable.
> 
> Anyway I think I'm gonna get Xellos or willy to lock this cause it's just a mess.


The trial of Vivec was only provided because you requested it, it is as official as the Star Wars EU which Gearge Lucas has said that he doesn't consider it to be apart of his canon. 

Despite this we still accept the EU here as a valid source for Star Wars it being apart of the Star Wars Lore.  

The trial of Vivec is also completely unnecessary to this debate, the primary thing that people in this thread, need to grasp is what CHIM is and I have provided multiple sources as well as links leading to people who can explain what CHIM far more effectively than I can.


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> The trial of Vivec was only provided because you requested it, it is as official as the Star Wars EU which Gearge Lucas has said that he doesn't consider it to be apart of his canon.
> 
> Despite this we still accept the EU here as a valid source for Star Wars it being apart of the Star Wars Lore.
> 
> The trial of Vivec is also completely unnecessary to this debate, the primary thing that people in this thread, need to grasp is what CHIM is and I have provided multiple sources as well as links leading to people who can explain what CHIM far more effectively than I can.



No, three are EU Elder Scrolls novels and such that are canon, what you linked was nothing of the sort. Also when did George Lucas say that EU novels were not part of his canon?

Also Im glad this was unlocked, it didnt make sense to be locked in the first place, its a legit matchup.


----------



## Calamity (Nov 20, 2011)

Anyone knows where I can find these overpowered gods in Skyrim? And do they even do half the stuff I'm reading here?


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig, how is it official when



> Note: This role-play is done in the Official TES Forum. Some devs and ex-devs participate in the play, and to the fans this event in the play is considered semi-official. *But still one must remember that so far there is no official word from Bethsoft regarding this play.* Some more information about the Bethsoft Developers: Michael Kirkbride played Vehk, Azura, and Ainoryl; Ted Peterson played the Daedric Prince Sheogorath, Celarus and Gosleigh; Ken Rolston played The Emperor Uriel Septim VII; Kurt Kuhlmann played Hasphat Antabolis; and GT Noonan played Divayth Fyr.



This is stated?

The other sources are valid but not this.

Why was this unlocked? It's a big shit storm.


----------



## Illairen (Nov 20, 2011)

So now people are using fanfiction in order to prove their point? Seriously?


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Illairen said:


> So now people are using fanfiction in order to prove their point? Seriously?



Well the logic is it was fanfiction done by the game developers. But no its not canon.


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Why was this unlocked? It's a big shit storm.



Its a legit match, and passionate debating (or even wrong debating) isnt grounds for a thread to be locked. Even of somones flaming the post just gets deleted.


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 20, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> Its a legit match, and passionate debating (or even wrong debating) isnt grounds for a thread to be locked. Even of somones flaming the post just gets deleted.



When it goes on for ten pages with stonewalling and shit storms with mostly the same arguments, it's probably best that the thread get locked.


----------



## Fish127 (Nov 20, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Why was this unlocked? It's a big shit storm.



Caus its not, and your not a mod?


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

IMO the Elder Scrolls themselves have some pretty powerful feats. Besides being able to tell every possible future and past scenerio, the Grey Fox was able to use one to break a powerful curse from a Daedra Lord, and we also see now that they can be used to time travel, as well as possible reality warping power.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

I also didn't use Vehk's trial as a source it was provided because Neremind requested it, why you persist and try and change to debate to its canonity. 

The 36 Sermons of Vivec, and Vehk's Teachings are what explain what CHIM is, and I've tried to explain and provide links to also explain it in more detail. CHIM has nothing to do with the heart of Lorkhan.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> When it goes on for ten pages with stonewalling and shit storms with mostly the same arguments, it's probably best that the thread get locked.


Do you actually know what a shit storm is ? 

It is when people are out right flaming each other and start to personally attack the other members participating in the thread none of this is present in this thread. If you think the thread should be lock that is your opinion and it is fair to have one, if you don't wish to take part leave it really isn't a hard thing to do.



MohsinMan99 said:


> Anyone knows where I can find these overpowered gods in Skyrim? And do they even do half the stuff I'm reading here?


Vivec isn't in Skyrim, he is in Morrowind and his manipulations are subtle, and are listed in the 36 Sermon's of Vivec.


----------



## Calamity (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> Vivec isn't in Skyrim, he is in Morrowind and his manipulations are subtle, and are listed in the 36 Sermon's of Vivec.



Well, I meant, is there any chance of seeing them in that game since you seem to have already played it? 
One of the loading screens says something about a god being infinite as the void and without any form so I thought they might appear.


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> Do you actually know what a shit storm is ?



Just ignore him, if you argue back it will turn into a whole big thing and get the thread closed again.




Gig said:


> The 36 Sermons of Vivec, and Vehk's Teachings are what explain what CHIM is, and I've tried to explain and provide links to also explain it in more detail. CHIM has nothing to do with the heart of Lorkhan.



Viven may have a lot of power on Nirn since he draws his divinity from the heart of Lorkhan which is part of the planet itself. But his greatest feats simply put him on par with the Daedra Lords lesser feats, such as stopping the moon from falling when Sheogorath sent it flying at Vivec City. If anything the Deadra Lords are probably slightly above the Tribunal in Tamriel, nevermind in their own realm.


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Well, I meant, is there any chance of seeing them in that game since you seem to have already played it?
> One of the loading screens says something about a god being infinite as the void and without any form so I thought they might appear.



That was probably refering to Sithis since he was the original deity before Akatosh. Hes more than just some death God the crazy Dark Brotherhood worships, hes basicly nothingness, the void that existed before creation.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Well, I meant, is there any chance of seeing them in that game since you seem to have already played it?


I have played Skyrim, none of the character I've mentioned appear in person, some of the Daedra Lords do such as Boethia and Sheogorath.



MohsinMan99 said:


> One of the loading screens says something about a god being infinite as the void and without any form so I thought they might appear.


They don't really need to appear, in person as they exist on a level where physically manifesting isn't required, once you achieve CHIM and know that everything is you and you are everything you can manipulate things subtlety. 

When people change reality in Elder Scrolls there is no magic lights things simply change most in universe characters won't even notice as they are limited by the laws set by God (the developer)those who have attained CHIM have broken the laws set by God and as such have gained the ability to manipulate creation at will.


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> I have played Skyrim, none of the character I've mentioned appear in person, some of the Daedra Lords do such as Boethia and Sheogorath.
> 
> They don't really need to appear, in person as they exist on a level where physically manifesting isn't required, once you achieve CHIM and know that everything is you and you are everything you can manipulate things subtlety.
> 
> When people change reality in Elder Scrolls there is no magic lights things simply change most in universe characters won't even notice as they are limited by the laws set by God (the developer)those who have attained CHIM have broken the laws set by God and as such have gained the ability to manipulate creation at will.



Your talking about, idk game mechanics? like its lore. Yes the developers and the player character are basicly in game Gods, but gameplay =/= lore. and isnt usable in a debate.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> Viven may have a lot of power on Nirn since he draws his divinity from the heart of Lorkhan which is part of the planet itself. But his greatest feats simply put him on par with the Daedra Lords lesser feats, such as stopping the moon from falling when Sheogorath sent it flying at Vivec City. If anything the Deadra Lords are probably slightly above the Tribunal in Tamriel, nevermind in their own realm.


Vivec the mortal draws his power from the heart of Lorkhan, but Vivec the God who is also Vivec the Mortal but also isn't was always a God.

This is mentioned in the 36 Sermons, Vivec the God doesn't need the heart of Lorkhan for he has CHIM. You really need to read these to understand what CHIM is, to put it simply it is 4th wall breaking but it is also far more complicated than that.  







Ryjacork said:


> That was probably refering to Sithis since he was the original deity before Akatosh. Hes more than just some death God the crazy Dark Brotherhood worships, hes basicly nothingness, the void that existed before creation.


Sithis isn't the original God, he is just the highest thing in universe characters (who haven't attained CHIM) can perceive or understand even to a limited extent.


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> I also didn't Vehk's trial as a source it was provided because Neremind requested it, why you persist and try and change to debate to its canonity.



Well I was assuming it would be canon.



Gig said:


> Do you actually know what a shit storm is ?
> 
> It is when people are out right flaming each other and start to personally attack the other members participating in the thread none of this is present in this thread. If you think the thread should be lock that is your opinion and it is fair to have one, if you don't wish to take part leave it really isn't a hard thing to do.



Well I've seen a lot of shall we say...sensitivity in the thread, and pretty much the same arguments. But if everyone else wants it unlocked so be it.



MohsinMan99 said:


> Well, I meant, is there any chance of seeing them in that game since you seem to have already played it?
> One of the loading screens says something about a god being infinite as the void and without any form so I thought they might appear.



You gotta read the in-game books to get all the good stuff.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> Your talking about, idk game mechanics? like its lore. Yes the developers and the player character are basicly in game Gods, but gameplay =/= lore. and isnt usable in a debate.


But you see the game mechanics are canon to an extent, they're mentioned subtlety in, in universe books. 

The main characters using console commands/or the construction set is none canon for it never happened in the background they can in game use them if the player character so desires but there changes don't effect the universe in the long run as they aren't canon. Now Vivec or Talos's manipulations using CHIM though is canon as they  don't use the powers in game they use them in the lore/background and cause long term effects on the universe as a whole, there manipulations are mentioned as I have said in the 36 Sermon's of Vivec and the Mysterium Xarxes. 

For example all Player characters have CHIM by there very nature it is canon that they have CHIM but them using it isn't canon as them using it is never documented, player characters though are not the only characters who have attained CHIM though Vivec and Talos being 2 NPC examples of people who have attained it. 

Are you starting to understand what I'm saying now ?


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> But you see the game mechanics are canon, they're mentioned subtlety in, in universe books, the main characters using console commands/or the construction set is none canon for it never happened in the background. Vivec or Talos using CHIM though is canon as they  don't use the powers in game they use them in the lore/background and claiming a in game book to be game mechanics would be stupid now.
> 
> Do you understand or are beginning to yet ?



Ok listen dude, its not easy but Im grasping that this CHIM crap is some kind of hyrbid you came up with between game mechanics and fanfiction. But it is not canon, if a player dies and then they reload an earlier save file then that dosnt mean that the Nereverine or Dovakin are some kind of reality hoppers. The closest game mechanics have ever come to being canon in Elder Scrolls is the Warp in the West they came up with to explain the multiple endings to Daggerfall.

No offense but it seems like your pulling this out of your ass, lore wise Vivec is nothing more than he is in game. A God (possibly demigod) but nothing more, not some fourth wall breaking omnipotent- whatever you are making him out to be.



Gig said:


> Sithis isn't the original God, he is just the highest thing in universe characters (who haven't attained CHIM) can perceive or understand even to a limited extent.



Sithis was the void of nothingness that came before creation, by definition you couldnt have anyone before him because then it wouldnt be nothingness. Then Akatosh came along and created the concept of time and all the other Aedra and Daedra came from there.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2011)

How the fuck are ingame books fanfiction?

That doesnt make any sense whatsoever


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> How the fuck are ingame books fanfiction?
> 
> That doesnt make any sense whatsoever



None of the stuff he linked to base Vivecs supposed CHIM on are from in game books.


----------



## dream (Nov 20, 2011)

> Ok listen dude, its not easy but Im grasping that this CHIM crap is some kind of hyrbid you came up with between game mechanics and fanfiction.



CHIM isn't crap that he came up with.  Perhaps some of the explanations might be a bit speculative but it does exist.  



> CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled.





It's at Book four, fourth one up from the bottom.  It's referring to how Cyrodiil was a jungle in previous lore books before the release of Oblivion.



> There are a few major roads to the west, river paths to the north, and even a canopy tunnel to the Velothi Mountains, but most of Cyrodiil is a river-based society surrounded by jungle.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2011)

Just denial then

Good to know


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 20, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> None of the stuff he linked to base Vivecs supposed CHIM on are from in game books.



Uh, yes they are.

The first is an in game book.


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Uh, yes they are.
> 
> The first two are from in game books.



Not the ones that dealt with Vivec defeating Azura. And as for him being some avatar of a greater entity, that was aluded at by a book that was written by the Tribunal Temple, the very fanatics who couldnt even grasp the concept that Almalexia was killed and did everything in their power to stamp out the truth of Vivecs true origins. Not a reliable source.

There are no reliable in game feats to suggest Vivec can move past the fourth wall besides a reference in a book (written by his own fanatics).

Also most of those in game references to Elder Scrolls universe being an actual game are more winks at the reader/player than actual credible lore.


----------



## Nevermind (Nov 20, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> Not the ones that dealt with Vivec defeating Azura.



Which I already said was not usable.



Ryjacork said:


> And as for him being some avatar of a greater entity, that was aluded at by a book that was written by the Tribunal Temple, the very fanatics who couldnt even grasp the concept that Almalexia was killed and did everything in their power to stamp out the truth of Vivecs true origins. Not a reliable source.
> 
> There are no reliable in game feats to suggest Vivec can move past the fourth wall besides a reference in a book (written by his own fanatics).



Good thing Eternal Goob brought other sources.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Which I already said was not usable.


Which I also stated wasn't meant to be used as a source and was provided, since it was requested as it is an intresting read. 



Nevermind said:


> Good thing Eternal Goob brought other sources.


Indeed, 

Also the 36 Lessons/Sermons of Vivec where written by Vivec not some random fanatics


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Good thing Eternal Goob brought other sources.



Um, noooooooo he didnt. He listed other examples of so called CHIM in Elder Scrolls (although weather or not that can be reliably used in a debate is unsure). He didnt post anything about Vivec... 



Gig said:


> Also the 36 Lessons/Sermons of Vivec where written by Vivec not some random fanatics



Considering he also lied about his own origins its still not reliable. Also he may have just been going insane dealing with his own divinity, which we have already seen happen with Almalexia and Sotha-Sil.


----------



## Gig (Nov 20, 2011)

Ryjacork said:


> Considering he also lied about his own origins its still not reliable. Also he may have just been going insane dealing with his own divinity, which we have already seen happen with Almalexia and Sotha-Sil.


Almalexia went mad with the losing of her divinity not with dealing with having divinity. 

How did Vivec lie about his origins ? Are you referring to the part where he gives 2 accounts on his origin both being true due to the fact that he changed his own origin using his Godhood thus making both accounts true


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> Almalexia went mad with the losing of her divinity not with dealing with having divinity.



According to Vivec it started before Dagoth Ur came into his power, same with Sotha-Sil withdrawing into his clockwork town, it simply got worse after they lost their dininity.



Gig said:


> How did Vivec lie about his origins ? Are you referring to the part where he gives 2 accounts on his origin both being true due to the fact that he changed his own origin using his Godhood thus making both accounts true



Thats what he claims, Azura gives a different story, as do others. Ive heard it said many times we go by feats here, speculation on weather not not Vivec can break the fourth wall aside, he has only ever actualy shown to have power equal to or even below Daedra Lords.

Granted since Daedra have shown to have at least some time warping power, and he is at least on par with them (in Tamriel) he *could* have made both versions true.


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig said:


> The trial of Vivec was only provided because you requested it, it is as official as the Star Wars EU which Gearge Lucas has said that he doesn't consider it to be apart of his canon.



Wrong, Lucas isn't in charge of EU.



> Despite this we still accept the EU here as a valid source for Star Wars it being apart of the Star Wars Lore.



Except that Lucas has been involved in EU multiple times, and the canon and its continuity is regulated by Lucas Licensing and Leland Chee, specifically the latter who was appointed to keep Star Wars canon in check with the continuity.

Stop grasping.

You don't get to dictate how the canon in one series can correlate to another's, ever. Or are you going the Phenom route now?



> The trial of Vivec is also completely unnecessary to this debate, the primary thing that people in this thread, need to grasp is what CHIM is and I have provided multiple sources as well as links leading to people who can explain what CHIM far more effectively than I can.



No one gives a damn about you trying to deflect with using fallible in-universe lore on an unofficial forum by a nobody poster on a different board speculating what or may not be in the first place. Or some unknown poster's claim about what he thinks CHIM is, which is again entirely based off "in these in-universe books, etc..."

Its pathetic, almost as bad as this: "In game console construction commands is what is allowed". Yeah that's obviously not utter bullshit. 

And the speculative God of the SW universe  is allowed because he's been referenced in Marvel SW and Marvel SW Annuals among other crap then?

Why this shitty thread was unlocked is beyond me but no one with any ounce of honesty or validity would ever buy TES bullshit about its mythology.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2011)

So, i've heard SW has a universe destroying weapon

They should take it easily then


----------



## Gone (Nov 20, 2011)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> So, i've heard SW has a universe destroying weapon
> 
> They should take it easily then



If they do its news to me. I know they have a weapon that can destroy a star system by destroying its sun (with a chain reaction), not no universe buster.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Nov 20, 2011)

Gig won the thread


----------



## Shock Therapy (Nov 21, 2011)

after reading through this, feats are heavily on SW side and fang has already brought up most of SW's best feats so I have nothing more to add.


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Apr 21, 2013)

sigh looking back a year and a half ago. It seem so much has changed.

Disney bought of Star Wars and ep 7 is comming.
Lucas Arts died.
And Bethesda is done with Skyrim and is moving to the next project.

Man did times change.

Oh and Sheogarath turns most of the pll into cheese.


----------



## Endless Mike (Apr 21, 2013)

WTF is with the necro?


----------



## Dariustwinblade (Apr 21, 2013)

I was reminasncing Lucas Arts's death and Skyrims completion. Googled Elder scrolls vs Star wars got this thread.


----------



## willyvereb (Apr 21, 2013)

Well, that didn't contribute much.
Being a necro and all, I guess you don't mind if I lock this thread.


----------

