# Jiraiya vs Itachi and Kisame Analysis



## Turrin (Jan 19, 2019)

*Clarifications*
So basically this is an analysis of what if the hall way battle actually continued after Jiraiya used Toad Stomach. For the sake of of fairness I will assume a few things:

1. Itachi actually wants to kill Jiraiya and capture Naruto, so he did not engage Kakashi and never used Tsukuyomi against him. Also choosing to conserve chakra he doesn’t use Tskuyomi on Sasuke.

2. No matter how much commotion the fight causes other Konica Shinobi won’t show up.

3. The fight takes place right after Jiraiya uses Toad Stomach and Itachi counters escaping with himself and Kisame with Amaterasu

Now keep in mind I have to assume all this or Itachi and Kisame are at a huge disadvantage and imo have no chance to win.


1. Jiraya starts in SM and Naruto/Sasuke have escaped. And now before people start scream unfair, I did try to write up an analysis of how this would go starting with Jiriaya in Base with Sasuke and Naruto in the toad stomach but it took so much head cannon to try and figure out how it would play out and at the end of the day there are so many scenarios for Jiriaya escaping and so many for him not, so given that I gave Itachi and Kisame plenty advantages to eliminate their situational disadvantages I don’t think this is unfair. Plus I’ve heard for years that Jiraya stands no chance against Itachi alone and adding Kisame makes this victory so outlandish, so surely having Jiriaya start in SM shouldn’t matter...right?

*Feats Analysis
*
So how can Jiraiya takes these two on and once? And I think the answer is obvious, Jiraiya has shown that when faced with numbers he will use KB to make it 1v1 and that he can at least create one SM-KB (given his chakra he can probably create more easily, but I’ll talk about that in the potential section). So it’s basically going to be SM-Jiraiya Vs Itachi and KB vs Kisame.

So let’s start with KB vs Kisame. SM Jiraiya is faster then Kisame and more physically capable, so it’s not like Kisame can pop the SM clone easily and actually he will be overwhelmed in cqc; if the battle takes at long range Jiriaya should be able to counter kisame suitons with Bunta water gun shot and Gamma Endan. Even if SM runs out the toad summonings and Jiriaya own elemental Ninjutsu combos should be enough to hold Kisame at bay. Eventually Kisame could take this with Daikodan (though I have some doubts I’ll discuss in the potential section), but at that point the clone will have held Kisame off for quite sometime.

So let’s switch over and discuss Itachi vs SM Jiraiya. Whether you think Jiraiya wins under other circumstances here Jiraiya just saw Itachi use Genjutsu on Sasuke and will avoid eye contact at the very least Ma/Pa will sense the high level of chakra being channeled into Sharingan; and know that looking into the eyes of Mangekyo isn’t the best course of action. Even if you think Jiraiya can’t use SM sensing and discount the data-book complete, It’s fact that Jiriaya showed during the pain fight he can fight blind when he threw a smokescreen down to block los and still fought Human path. It’s also a fact that ma/pa can sense; so avoiding eyes contact just like Kabuto did works here too.

Same thing with Amaterasu even discounting Jiraiya being able to sense; Ma/Pa can sense the build up to Itachi Mangekyo and use Jutsu to disrupt him or block LOS. So landing Tsukyomi and Amaterasu likely won’t work. Itachi will probably end up actually wasting an Amaterasu trying to take out Jiraiya and having it counters by the elder toads sensing.

This brings us to Susanoo. Susanoo is a major problem because Jiraiya can’t overcome it with sheer might, but Jiriaya does have the means to circumvent it with Sound based Ninjutsu/Genjutsu. Frog Call can disrupt Itachi with its sheer auditory sound, the same ways Haguki did, which caused Itachi to only be able to form a Susanoo arm during its duration. If Frog call can do the same then Jiriaya may be able to break through Susanoo with a Senpo Oddoma Rasengan during this time frame. However in fairness to Itachi Frog Call may not be as strong as Haguki and may not disrupt him to that extent and we did see Madara Susanoo block an Oddoma Rasengan (though it wasn’t Senpo). So the scenario is questionable. But at the very least it should slow Itachi down. Also while I don’t believe Yomi Nima can defeat Susanoo, it should slow it down; same thing with FCD( it slowed down Kyuubi so don’t tell me it can’t slow down Susanoo). And really all Jiraiya needs to do is slow down Susanoo long enough to win, as Itachi would die from illness; if this is healthy then he’ll have to hold out for Frog Song to win, but ether way it’s a matter of lasting.

In regards to how long Jiraiya lasts one big thing to talk about would be can Jiraiya evade the Totsuka blade if he’s in range. It seemed to blitz Orochimaru. We do know SM-Kabuto was evading Susanoo speed without issue with so it would be very easy to scale Jiraiya close too this if we accept that his SM sensing exist to the same extent as the other Sages. If it doesn’t we still he faster then Orochimaru, so what else can we go off of. We do know that Gokage were reacting to and evading hits from the Susanoo clone from Madara; and even if we say the clones were slower individually then Itachi Susanoo combined they are certainly going to be more difficult to evade, and SM Jiraiya is faster then most of the Gokage except Ei. With that said we do see the Gokage even Ei get hit the moment their attention gets broke and we’ve seen Itachi blitz Nagato with the Totsuka blade the moment he let his guard down down. So I think we can say Susanoo isn’t too fast where it will blitz SM Jiraiya even if he doesn’t have sensing, but fast enough where if he lets his guard down he’ll get blitz (basically he can’t show any openings). But I think the elder toads being sensors will help with the fact that Jiraiya won’t show any opening easily with straight forward sword attacks.

However Itachi has another attack that often gets underrated; Magatama. Magatama would actually be a major problem for Jiraiya If he tries to use Frog Song as the Song would give away his location And unlike Pain who didn’t have a strong long range attack Magatama is exactly that. Also since it’s a thrown weapon it’s speed will be higher then the Totsuka blade and because individual Magatama can be thrown separately (also given Itachi eye for throwing weapons) it will be even harder to evade. I think at the very least Magatama will be enough to disrupt the elder toads and stop the song, it may also hit Jiraiya dealing heavy damage and creating an opening for the Totsuka blade. I have more confidence in it landing on Jiraiya depending on the range and the extent of Jiraiya sensing, but even with sensing it didn’t seem like Kabuto could react very well to it, so I think worst case scenario with a few uses of it, Itachi hits Jiraiya and the match ends there.

And Honestly this is why I believe Jiraiya would eventually loose to Susanoo. In close hell eventually expose an opening and get hit by the Totsuka blade and at Long he’ll eventually get hit by Magatama; creating an opening for Itachi to close the distance and hit him with the Totsuka blade. By fears Jiraiya eventually looses to Susanoo.

So if this is Healthy Itachi likely Jiraiya looses eventually to Susanoo. How long he lasts is debatable and depends how he fights but he’ll loose before Itachi runs out of chakra. If this is Sick Itachi though he died after only using Susanoo for a little bit, so how long Jiraiya would last matter. If Jiraiya lasts a few minutes Itachi would likely die before killing him, if he lasts a minute or so Itachi may die shortly after killing him. Or alternatively Itachi may be too weakened to pressure Jiraiya enough to stop Frog Song.

If we look at Itachi in the Sasuke fight; he could only maintain V4 Susanoo for the brief clash against Yamata no Orochi, after that he started coughing blood and his Susanoo started devolving into lower forms. So realistically Jiraiya would only need to last slightly longer then Orochimaru did and the. itachi would start to slow down and his Susanoo would weaken. I think based on the delay tactics I outlined above and Jiraiya superior speed in SM, he’d be able to last that.

What about Kisame though. Well the thing is even if Kisame rejoins the battle in time; Jiraiya would likely just use another clone to stall Kisame out while falling back on the same Sound based Techniques to try and stop both at once (they are AOE techs) so they would work on both of them. And It’s still really going to come down to Itachi to stop Jiraiya in time from landing Frog Song or a Frog Call combo. And if Itachi dies from sickness, Kisame isnt besting SM Jiraiya 1v1; and due to SM regenerative properties and Jiriaya own high chakra volumes he won’t loose just from being tired out from his fight with Itachi. So really Kisame changes little here as Jiraiya will already be on the defensive after seeing the power of Susanoo. Sorry just by feats he can get distracted by clones fairly easily.

So basically feat wise the battle comes down to how healthy Itachi was in P1 and how long he’d last using Susanoo. I’d say if you want to believe in the statements we assume he’s as sick or close to as sick as P2; if you want to say they were bullshit then we’d assume he’s much more healthy. 

*Potential:*

and at this point I’ll say to be continued.

Reactions: Like 8


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

Shit thread tbh.


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## Shazam (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Shit thread tbh.



Shit poster tbh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Jan 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *Clarifications*
> So basically this is an analysis of what if the hall way battle actually continued after Jiraiya used Toad Stomach. For the sake of of fairness I will assume a few things:
> 
> 1. Itachi actually wants to kill Jiraiya and capture Naruto, so he did not engage Kakashi and never used Tsukuyomi against him. Also choosing to conserve chakra he doesn’t use Tskuyomi on Sasuke.
> ...



I like it! 

Keep em coming!


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Shit poster tbh.



> Be Shazam (or JuiceyG?)

> Try to denounce every one of Itachi's abitlies

> Fails miserably with everyone hyping them to a greater extent than before

> Try to elevate every one of Jiriaya's abilities

>  Fails miserably with everyone lowering his overall level

> Other people are shit posters

It's almost like you're a low Iq numbskull who thinks that Kakashi can use Raikiri to bounce-off Sasuke's Kirin... oh wait.


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## Shazam (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> > Be Shazam (or JuiceyG?)
> 
> > Try to denounce every one of Itachi's abitlies
> 
> ...



Lol stay salty kid.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

So that's your response at the end of the day? 

I'm torn between whether you're actually that dumb or just trolling. Hopefully it's the latter.


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## Shazam (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> So that's your response at the end of the day?
> 
> I'm torn between whether you're actually that dumb or just trolling. Hopefully it's the latter.



You come into someone else's thread where they obviously spent time articulating his thoughts (@Turrin) just to call it "shit"..not even to debate points

Then you expect me to take anything you say seriously and respond appropriately?

K GTFO kid. A lot of people dont respect you as it is.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

Shazam said:


> You come into someone else's thread where they obviously spent time articulating his thoughts (@Turrin) just to call it "shit"..not even to debate points



Yes.

Just because he spent time articulating his points doesn't mean he's 1) right 2) not trying to be facetious. Which is why he's already admitted having to come up with head canon to support another premise he was readily willing to discuss. I suspect he's doing the same here.




> Then you expect me to take anything you say seriously and respond appropriately?



Well, you're the one who constantly says dumb, unfounded, unsupported and unscientific shit:

I.e - Kakahi uses Raikiri and Sasuke's kirin just bounces off it.

I'm sure we could debate other topics out side of Naruto, but your grasp on logic and argumenti doesn't seem to be any better so this is a cute at temp at reframing.




> K GTFO kid. A lot of people dont respect you as it is.



Who's that? You and a couple of other people (inclucing the account you share the same IP with : Juicy) who still suck on Jiraiy's tit as if the part one hype wasn't totally and utterly refuted in the canon ?

GTFO dipshit.


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## Turrin (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> So that's your response at the end of the day?
> 
> I'm torn between whether you're actually that dumb or just trolling. Hopefully it's the latter.


Your complaining about someone giving a one liner response when you did the same to detailed analysis opening which hasn’t even finished its conclusion yet. Pretty hypocritical and does make you seem very salty


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## Shazam (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Yes.
> 
> Just because he spent time articulating his points doesn't mean he's 1) right 2) not trying to be facetious. Which is why he's already admitted having to come up with head canon to support another premise he was readily willing to discuss. I suspect he's doing the same here.
> 
> ...


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your complaining about someone giving a one liner response when you did the same to detailed analysis opening which hasn’t even finished its conclusion yet. Pretty hypocritical and does make you seem very salty



Oh I'm willing to  discuss this in nuance. It's still a shitty thread with shitty reasoning behind it. Just thought I'd state that fact. The difference between Myself and Shazam is that I'm actaully able to follow thorugh with retorts as oppose just stating my opinion and leaving it there.

We'll discuss this threads in stages of obstacles. I:e - things Jiraya has to overcome to have a chance here.

The first round : eye contact/ genjutsu in genral.



Turrin said:


> Whether you think Jiraiya wins under other circumstances here Jiraiya just saw Itachi use Tskuyomi on Sasuke and will avoid eye contact.



Nope.

Tsukuyomi is an invisible attack to onlookers and eye contact is a common occurrence between fighters. So there is no reason to beleive he's smart enough to connect the dots when the only information he has to go by is Sasuke collapsing to the floor. He's not nearly smart enough to deduce this in only one instance, but he'd have to be nigh-omniscient anyway. He hasn't shown that he knows to avoid Itachi's eyes in any other circumstance  - not teaching Naruto in the time skip either. So he gets downed in one hit. GG.

That's if Ma and pa are allready there. Otherwise the Genjutsu 13 yr old Itachi used on Oro should be enough.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

Also well done for not reading through this shit heap and contradicting yourself within a page



Turrin said:


> So basically this is an analysis of what if the hall way battle actually continued after Jiraiya used Toad Stomach. *For the sake of of fairness I will assume a few things:*
> 
> 1. Itachi actually wants to kill Jiraiya and capture Naruto, so he did not engage Kakashi and never used Tsukuyomi against him. *Also choosing to conserve chakra he doesn’t use Tskuyomi on Sasuke.*





Turrin said:


> Whether you think Jiraiya wins under other circumstances here Jiraiya just saw Itachi use Tskuyomi on Sasuke and will avoid eye contact.



Be the OP

> Make up stipulations for his thread battle
> Assumes Itachi doesn't use Tsukyomi on Sasuke
> Claim Jiraya saw Itachi using Tskuyomi on Sasuke

Yeah, real great thread.


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## Turrin (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Also well done for not reading through this shit heap and contradicting yourself within a page
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point, I haven’t edit it yet as I’m writing as I go


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

An quality.


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## Turrin (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Oh I'm willing to  discuss this in nuance. It's still a shitty thread with shitty reasoning behind it. Just thought I'd state that fact. The difference between Myself and Shazam is that I'm actaully able to follow thorugh with retorts as oppose just stating my opinion and leaving it there.
> 
> We'll discuss this threads in stages of obstacles. I:e - things Jiraya has to overcome to have a chance here.
> 
> ...


I mean if you want to assume Jiraiya after 50 years many of which he’d be fighting for the village that the Uchiha reside in doesn’t know how Sharingan Genjutsu works, I’m not sure what to say... and I won’t engage in the rest of this discussion further. It has nothing to do with Jiriaya actual ability to counter Genjutsu, as I said he has the ability to fight without eye contact and it is a plead towards ignorance, IE that Jiriaya is ignorant enough to look an Uchiha in the eyes that already demonstrated high leve Genjutsu in front of him. Jiraiya looses because he is ignorant of Sharingan Genjutsu despite living and likely fighting alongside Uchiha for years ; not because he can’t counter. Orochimaru not avoiding eye contact makes more sense as he is more defensively sound when it comes to countering it through Kai and also doesn’t have sensing to realize how powerful Itachi Doryoku truely is.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

Lol look at the goal post changing here. I'm glad to see you've abandoned Jiraiya _learning_ he has to avoid eye contact through watching Sasuke get pawned in place for an even shitter argument. *Not. *



Turrin said:


> I mean if you want to assume Jiraiya after 50 years many of which he’d be fighting for the village that the Uchiha reside in doesn’t know how Sharingan Genjutsu works



He doesn't know he has to avoid eye contact. Period.

- He looked right at Itachi during their confrontation despite being a foot taller
- He didn't shout out to Naruto (the person he's trying to protect) to avoid Itachi's gaze
- He didn't teach Naruto later to avoid Itachi's eyes during the time skip.

An no, *simply being in the village with Uchiha isn't enough.* The fact is this : that Jiraiya would never have had any use to combat sharingans in his youth. This is because all sharingans that could be a threat to him *are on his side*. It's likely he'd never spar with or face off against a sharingan genjutsu in the academy or the Chunin exams either. Most uchiha here are too young and undeveloped to even awaken their Doujutsu let alone hone craft in illusive arts - the hardest of the 3 arts to learn. Obviously Jiraiya and Tsuande both had no idea of it. If the did... said knowledge could have easily been passed on to their respective pupils; Naruto and Sakura, who both had a *vested interest* in stopping Itachi and incapacitating Sasuke. As a final point, the nature of genjutsu itself is hard to uncover by onlookers. It's an invisible attack and eye contact is extremely common amongst fighters.  It would be hard to figure out as a prerequisite as something that's not extraordinary. For example, Chiyo had no idea despite fighting sharingan genjutsu on numerous occasions :

*Link Removed*

Your's is a dumb argument.  It's like saying that everyone in Narutoland should know there's an arrow-sized blind-spot within Neji's byakugan because they live relatively near his proximity.



> IE that Jiriaya is ignorant enough to look an Uchiha in the eyes that already demonstrated high leve Genjutsu in front of him.




1) he doesn't know it's a high level genjutsu being cast. All he's seen is that Sasuke, a genin, collapsed in front of him
2) He doens't know that Tsukuyomi had prolonged affects until Guy told him _after_ Itachi and Kisame high tailed, which happens after your thread's fictional scenario
3) It's not obvious because it's an invisible attack
4) Eye contact is not a special circumstance and occurs within every fight ever
5) He took a long enough time figuring out the pain's had shared vision

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 19, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Lol look at the goal post changing here. I'm glad to see you've abandoned Jiraiya _learning_ he has to avoid eye contact through watching Sasuke get pawned in place for an even shitter argument. *Not. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ziggy, if you were to break the Cult of Jiraiya members down into tiers, what would they be?


Zero890
Isaiah13000
Orochimaruwantsyourbody
Matto
The_Conqueror
Android
Buuhan
Turrin
Hazuki
ShinAkuma 
Bonly
JuicyG
Shazam
Sixth Ranger
Reviewing Logic
Omote


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Ziggy, if you were to break the Cult of Jiraiya members down into tiers, what would they be?
> 
> 
> Zero890
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 19, 2019)

As for a list itself.

You, Matto, Ishmeal, Android and yes, Turrin (who you wouldn't think based on this thread) are the only one's capable of reason.

The others are either

1) cheerleaders
2) non native speakers
3) Just plain dumb
4) I don't know who they are/ haven't posted enough

If there was a list, the five names I metnioned would be at the top. And someone like Zero08 would be right at the bottom.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jan 19, 2019)

You'd think at some point, people would get bored of Jiraiya vs Itachi, but I guess not.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 20, 2019)

Damn can he have a chance to finish his post?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 20, 2019)

I don’t get the , Itachi finishes Jiraiya before he enters SM argument knowing damn well a major fight between these two would never play out without them showing their best stuff and this is also backed by Itachi’s admission of equality and the datascore making a concerted effort to have both with equal scores , the better debate would be what happens after Jiraiya enters SM and how Itachi would feel with it , anyone saying the fight is over before SM comes into play shouldn’t be taken seriously .


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## Sapherosth (Jan 20, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> I don’t get the , Itachi finishes Jiraiya before he enters SM argument knowing damn well a major fight between these two would never play out without them showing their best stuff and this is also backed by Itachi’s admission of equality and the datascore making a concerted effort to have both with equal scores , the better debate would be what happens after Jiraiya enters SM and how Itachi would feel with it , anyone saying the fight is over before SM comes into play shouldn’t be taken seriously .




Er....Fights DO end before people show their best stuff. Especially when it comes to people like Itachi who likes to one shot people.


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## Mr Akatsuki (Jan 20, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Er....Fights DO end before people show their best stuff. Especially when it comes to people like Itachi who likes to one shot people.



Genuine question. Who did he one-shot? It has been such a long time for me now.


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## Maverick04 (Jan 20, 2019)

Mr Akatsuki said:


> Genuine question. Who did he one-shot? It has been such a long time for me now.


Orochimaru? Deidara?


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 20, 2019)

Maverick04 said:


> Orochimaru? Deidara?



No he did not one shot Orochimaru that scene was just implying Itachi was too powerful to take over his body 

Deidara was in reference to his motivation to get stronger 


Both were flashbacks and it was implied there was massive inferiority , that’s different than a real time battle where one person admits the other party could give him a difficult time .


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Lol look at the goal post changing here. I'm glad to see you've abandoned Jiraiya _learning_ he has to avoid eye contact through watching Sasuke get pawned in place for an even shitter argument. *Not. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look If you want to believe Jiraiya  looses due to a lack of knowledge that’s up to you. It doesn’t really change the fact that Jiraiya has a counter to Itachi Genjutsu, it just means he looses because he underestimated Itachi. If Itachi is so much stronger then Jiraiya I wouldn’t think someone would need to rely on Jiraiya underestimating him to give Itachi the win. There should (and quite frankly are better argument for Itachi beating Jiraiya).

Additionally even if Jiraiya is ignorant to Genjutsu Itachi would likely hit him with 3T Genjutsu before Tsukuyomi; which Ma/Pa can break him free off; at which point he’d realize the danger anyway. And If Itachi first Genjutsu was Tsukuyomi; Ma/Pa would have to sense Itachi incredible Doryoku coming from the Mangekyo; and not warn Jiraiya or Jiraiya would still need to be ignorant enough to make eye contact despite their warning. The scenario essentially relies on Jiriaya and the elder toads to be extremely ignorant and for Itachi to use Tsukyomi as his first Genjutsu.

So yeah I just don’t agree with it being likely and if you believe that scenario is likely anyone pretty much looses to Itachi who doesn’t have ditect knowledge of Tskuyomi or higher level Sharingan, even SM-Hashirams could loose that way if we make him equally as ignorant.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 20, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> He doesn't know he has to avoid eye contact. Period.



Does Kabuto?

refers to Yata's Mirror as a Susano'o technique

They sure seem to be making eye contact here. Later Kabuto mentions he doesn't like to be stared at.

refers to Yata's Mirror as a Susano'o technique

Keep in mind this is prior to Kabuto severing his eyesight in sage mode.

So we have an enemy that Itachi must genjutsu to defeat, already has his MS activated and is presumably making eye contact. Yet for some reason Itachi didn't/couldn't Genjutsu GG.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look If you want to believe Jiraiya  looses due to a lack of knowledge that’s up to you. It doesn’t really change the fact that Jiraiya has a counter to Itachi Genjutsu, it just means he looses because he underestimated Itachi. If Itachi is so much stronger then Jiraiya I wouldn’t think someone would need to rely on Jiraiya underestimating him to give Itachi the win. There should (and quite frankly are better argument for Itachi beating Jiraiya).



Jiraiya on his own has no counter to Itachi's genjutsu. Tsukuyomi Jiraiya cannot counter, even with a partner. 

Jiraiya with Ma & Pa can counter 3T genjutsu, but that alone leaves an opening for Itachi. Even Killer Bee & Hachibi who shares the same body took some time to recognise it and break Bee out. I find it unlikely that Jiraiya with Ma & Pa to do any better. 



> Additionally even if Jiraiya is ignorant to Genjutsu Itachi would likely hit him with 3T Genjutsu before Tsukuyomi; which Ma/Pa can break him free off; at which point he’d realize the danger anyway. And If Itachi first Genjutsu was Tsukuyomi; Ma/Pa would have to sense Itachi incredible Doryoku coming from the Mangekyo; and not warn Jiraiya or Jiraiya would still need to be ignorant enough to make eye contact despite their warning. The scenario essentially relies on Jiriaya and the elder toads to be extremely ignorant and for Itachi to use Tsukyomi as his first Genjutsu.



On the 1 instance we see Itachi facing a SM user (Kabuto), Itachi was going straight for Tsukuyomi and not 3T, so your argument about Itachi opting to use 3T on SM Jiraiya first is out of the window. 

Also, I don't recall anyone ever sensing the sharingan's genjutsu build up. Not to mention Ma & Pa would have no idea what that build up actually is for and it makes zero sense for them to warn Jiraiya when they couldn't even warn him of an ambush attack. Tsukuyomi is never used without prior distraction/feinting, so sensing it is near impossible for the trio especially when we've seen Itachi successfully feinting a SM user whose sensing feats far outshines that of Jiraiya's. 

As for sensing Amateratsu, we already saw a SM user (Kabuto) failing to sense it. Jiraiya has no chance in this regard. 



> So yeah I just don’t agree with it being likely and if you believe that scenario is likely anyone pretty much looses to Itachi who doesn’t have ditect knowledge of Tskuyomi or higher level Sharingan, even SM-Hashirams could loose that way if we make him equally as ignorant.




In fact, Hashirama could very lose to Tsukuyomi if he falls for it. However considering Hashirama's caliber & experience with Madara, it's much more likely for Hashirama to evade it as oppose to Jiraiya, Ma & Pa who never had any experience facing a dojutsu user. Scaling Jiraiya to Hashirama isn't convincing at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 20, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Ziggy, if you were to break the Cult of Jiraiya members down into tiers, what would they be?
> 
> 
> Zero890
> ...



That entire list is top tier. 

Not as top tier as "healthy Itachi" mind you.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Does Kabuto?



Yes.




> They sure seem to be making eye contact here. Later Kabuto mentions he doesn't like to be stared at.



They don't seem to be making eye contact at all.

Kabuto is shorter than Itachi with his head titled down, and hood up. His serpant eyes (slit pupils) don't appear to be pointing in any direction. On the other hand, Jiraiya's human eyes and pupils appear to be looking directly at the Uchiha.



> Later Kabuto mentions he doesn't like to be stared at.



Well, yeah that's becuse he wasn't making eye contact.

And this is conformation of such. Well done for contradicting your own point, dipshit.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

Kabuto's knoweledge is pretty vastly beyond Jiraiya's by the way if it wasn't evident by the fact he knew the abilties of every edo he summoned.

On of top having Orochimaru's notes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## narut0ninjafan (Jan 20, 2019)

Jman bringing the salt from battledome posters as usual


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 20, 2019)

Zigmund Shitdust said:


> Yes.



Yet we have him looking at Itachi.




> They don't seem to be making eye contact at all.



Two panels side by side of them looking at each other and you don't consider it eye contact?

I guess Jiraiya didn't make eye contact either.



> Kabuto is shorter than Itachi with his head titled down, and hood up. His serpant eyes (slit pupils) don't appear to be pointing in any direction. On the other hand, Jiraiya's human eyes and pupils appear to be looking directly at the Uchiha.



LOL

You have no perspective on either panels. Jiraiya could have been looking at Kisame?

I expected that you would make up some bullshit excuse "he didn't have the perfect angle" nonsense because obviously you would never be able to accept that Itachi with MS activated stared at his opponent and they didn't immediately die.

Shocker.



> Well, yeah that's becuse he wasn't making eye contact.
> 
> And this is conformation of such. Well done for contradicting your own point, dipshit.





Staring doesn't preclude eye contact. 

What were you saying about "non native speakers" rofl


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

Yeah, the implication of him not liking to be stared at is almost certainly in regards to him avoiding eye contact.

This is pretty thematically obvious in naruto.

That's kishi telling you that Kabuto is avoiding eye contact.

It goes hand in hand with the angle of his head and slit eyes.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 20, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust The Thematic Expert said:


> Yeah, the implication of him not liking to be stared at is almost certainly in regards to him avoiding eye contact.
> 
> This is pretty thematically obvious in naruto.
> 
> ...



I have no idea why you keep mentioning slit eyes. YES HE HAS THE EYES OF A SNAKE. That doesn't mean you can't look into them.

Link removed

Kabuto admits they were staring at him and now he hides away his face. So Itachi did look at him and HE DIDN'T DIE.

And as far as themes, the point of Kabuto hiding was to "reveal" his sage mode and build tension, not to hide from genjutsu specifically. If a cloak and some bad posture would protect from genjutsu he wouldn't have needed to seal his eyes. (I know he also sealed his eyes for white rage)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

I mean Kabuto _might be_ looking at Itachi's feet based off the panels you showed me? 

So well done?

But it's made pretty thematically obvious that he's trying to look away I;E Sasuke "he's trying to avoid out genjutsu", you obviously have to be a dense bastard not to understand that. And of course, the angle at which his drawn is drawn just supports the notion that no eye contact was made that day.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

Basically ShinAkuma is trying to say that because Kabuto didn't literally shout out "I'm avoiding eye contact with you" He must have been looking into Itachi's eyes.

Even though Kabuto's dialogue and the panels Shin presented contradict this amusing opinion.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 20, 2019)

Ziggy Native English Speaker Stardust said:


> I mean Kabuto _might be_ looking at Itachi's feet based off the panels you showed me



tearing apart trees, and actively affecting the tides

Ok seriously, you think that a dude with his eyes looking up is staring at Itachi's feet?

Really?




> So well done?



Jiraiya has paint under his eyes. Gotta be at least as useful as slit eyes.

GOTTA BE



> But it's made pretty thematically obvious that he's trying to look away I;E Sasuke "he's trying to avoid out genjutsu", you obviously have to be a dense bastard not to understand that. And of course, the angle at which his drawn is drawn just supports the notion that no eye contact was made that day.



Yes he's trying to look away after he already apparently made eye contact.

Look you guys (the Itachitard brigade) are the ones who made the argument that you lose "WITH A SINGLE GLANCE *GURGLE*" against Itachi, not me. We have evidence that Itachi and Kabuto were hot glancing all over each other. Kabuto didn't lose.

Maybe the single glance angle isn't legit, at least when in an actual fight.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> We have evidence that Itachi and Kabuto were hot glancing all over each other.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 20, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> You, Matto, Ishmeal, Android and yes, Turrin (who you wouldn't think based on this thread) are the only one's capable of reason.


I think more sane Jiraya fans actually exist but I would rather retire Android from this list, he is just as biased if not more than most of Jiraya cult members.


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## Shazam (Jan 20, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> I think there is more sane Jiraya fans but I would rather retire Android from this list, he is just as biased if not more than most of Jiraya cult members.



Not for nothing but I've literally seen a few Itachi fans outright claim to be biased themselves.  They dont even attempt to hide it.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 20, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust The Concession Artist said:


>



Concession accepted.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Not for nothing but I've literally seen a few Itachi fans outright claim to be biased themselves.  They dont even attempt to hide it.


Bonly isn't biased.


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## Shazam (Jan 20, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Bonly isn't biased.



Never mentioned any names on purpose. But you know, for some reason I think when a person literally (and yes I mean literally) claims to be biased (or literally - and yes I mean literally - claim to be a fanboy), then its best to take their word as truth.

I also find it funny that you can claim someone to be baised, yet I cant? Even when Ive been literally told the opposite by them?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Concession accepted.





> Claims Kabuto and Itachi were _hot staring at each other
_
> Show's me panels of Kabuto doing exactly the opposite

*Link Removed*

> All panels show Kabuto's shrouded head facing downwards despite being a bit shorter than Itachi

*Link Removed*

When Itachi casts genjutsu from his feet, you can then have my concession


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 20, 2019)

Ziggy Cross Eyed Stardust said:


> > All panels shows Kabuto's shrouded head facing downwards despite being a bit shorter than Itachi



But we can still see his eyes tho.

Hey man, I'm fine that any sort of obstruction even if you can fully see their eyes will stop Itachi.

Jiraiya has paint on his eyes wooooooooooo



> *Link Removed*
> 
> When Itachi casts genjutsu from his feet, you can then have my concession



HE MIGHT BE LOOKING AT HIS FEET

MAYBE

LMAO

Kabuto would need be doing a handstand there in order to look at Itachi's feet with his eyes looking that far up.

Is non-native vision a thing cause you obviously don't know what you're looking at.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> But we can still see his eyes tho.



Yes, We, the audience, reading a manga that is clearly designed to be viewed from a 3rd person perspective can see his eyes.

This doesn't tell us that :

1) Itachi can see his eyes
2) That Kabuto is looking at Itachi's eyes, which is the prerequisite for tsukuyomi anyway

The fact his head is titled donwards for the entire conversation is evidence that he wasn't making eye contact et all.



> Jiraiya has paint on his eyes wooooooooooo



Your point ? Other than that you were high while making this post ?



> Kabuto would need be doing a handstand there in order to look at Itachi's feet with his eyes looking that far up.



> Kabuto's eyes looking that "far up"
> Middle panel shows Kabuto's head titled down

*Link Removed*

You really are the gift that keeps on giving.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 20, 2019)

Oh by the way, this is Asuma and Kurenai looking at Itachi's feet, avoiding his gaze :

*Link Removed*

Is the panel and the clear intention behind it contradicted because reader can see their eyes ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jan 20, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Bonly isn't biased.



It's weird how he's so obsessed with me and my opinion of Itachi.


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya on his own has no counter to Itachi's genjutsu. Tsukuyomi Jiraiya cannot counter, even with a partner.
> 
> Jiraiya with Ma & Pa can counter 3T genjutsu, but that alone leaves an opening for Itachi. Even Killer Bee & Hachibi who shares the same body took some time to recognise it and break Bee out. I find it unlikely that Jiraiya with Ma & Pa to do any better.
> 
> ...


SM Jiraiya can fight blind we saw that when he fought Pain in the smokescreen. So he can counter Genjutsu just like Kabuto can. Itachi went for Tsukuyomi against Kabuto because he needed to control Kabuto to end Edo Tensei.

Ma/Pa weren’t actively sensing during the ambush attack as they thought the enemy was dead; that’s all that was. And I think it makes perfect sense for them to warn Jiraiya that a Dojutsu user is suddenly gathering incredibly powerful chakra to his eyes. This is of course assuming Jiraiya can’t use sensing himself which requires us to ignore DB4 entirely. 

Hashirama himself would have no other basis to avoid eye contact then sensing Itachi building up chakra to his Dojutsu; as he’s never faced Itachi before and even Madara never had a Genjutsu like Tskuyomi. 

Bottom line and why I don’t want to go much further with the discussion though is because it’s a dumb argument to me as Jiraiya factually has a way to fight avoiding eye contact, so him loosing to Genjutsu would be simply due to ignorance / underestimation and says nothing about how the characters actually stack up. It’s like Itachi sees Tsunade charge a huge amount of chakra into her fist with sharingan and still decides to try and block the punch with his arm instead of Susanoo because he underestimates how strong her strike is going to be and dies instantly. It’s a plee from ignorance that Itachi shouldn’t need to win if he is that much stronger then the character. And ultimately you and I both know that shit comes down to plot anyway, as if Kishi wants Itachi to slap someone he’ll have them look him in the eyes and if he doesn’t he won’t. So why even bother discussing that plot kai stuff?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jan 20, 2019)

See guys this is why we can't have nice things


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 20, 2019)

I like Turrin took time to lay out his thoughts and impressions on this he doesn't deserve the lip tbh. 

That being said I disagree and think itachi wins so giving you heads up on at least 1 general rebuttal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> I like Turrin took time to lay out his thoughts and impressions on this he doesn't deserve the lip tbh.
> 
> That being said I disagree and think itachi wins so giving you heads up on at least 1 general rebuttal.


Thank you and I welcome other opinions. Please bare in mind in your rebuttal I do think Healthy Itachi beats Jiraiya unless we assume Frog Call scales to Haguki (which I don’t agree with, but can understand those who might); giving Jiraiya an outside chance to win.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> SM Jiraiya can fight blind we saw that when he fought Pain in the smokescreen. So he can counter Genjutsu just like Kabuto can. Itachi went for Tsukuyomi against Kabuto because he needed to control Kabuto to end Edo Tensei.




Jiraiya using smoke bombs and attacking inside it DOES NOT mean that he can fight blind. Where do you even get that conclusion from? 

Jiraiya HIMSELF stated that even when you're a sensor, defending effectively without looking at an attack is impossible. You can't even scale Kabuto's SM feats to Jiraiya's either when Kabuto is utilising a different type of SM AND he's been enhanced by other abilities such as Snake heat sensing & Karin's ability. 




> Ma/Pa weren’t actively sensing during the ambush attack as they thought the enemy was dead; that’s all that was. And I think it makes perfect sense for them to warn Jiraiya that a Dojutsu user is suddenly gathering incredibly powerful chakra to his eyes. This is of course assuming Jiraiya can’t use sensing himself which requires us to ignore DB4 entirely.



I don't recall Ma or Pa warning Jiraiya or Naruto before Pain finishes using any of his abilities. If anything, their reactions are slower than that of Jiraiya's in battle. Not to mention Itachi never uses Tsukuyomi outright but uses it after feinting so sensing it is out of the question. 

Unless you want to say that Itachi cannot feint them. 



> Hashirama himself would have no other basis to avoid eye contact then sensing Itachi building up chakra to his Dojutsu; as he’s never faced Itachi before and even Madara never had a Genjutsu like Tskuyomi.



Why would he have no basis to avoid it? He's been fighting Uchiha's since he was a little boy. If he can't fight against Uchiha genjutsu he would've been dead long ago. It doesn't matter what Genjutsu Itachi has if Hashirama just avoids it. The chances of Itachi using Tsukuyomi before Hashirama recognises that Itachi is an Uchiha is slim to none. 



> Bottom line and why I don’t want to go much further with the discussion though is because it’s a dumb argument to me as Jiraiya factually has a way to fight avoiding eye contact, so him loosing to Genjutsu would be simply due to ignorance / underestimation and says nothing about how the characters actually stack up.



This is basically you disregarding a BIG portion of Itachi's power simply because you think that Jiraiya will use his *limited information *to know exactly what and how to counter Itachi's techniques perfectly, which is completely dishonest. 

There's no shame in getting one-shot by genjutsu at all. I don't see anybody crying when Minato counters shinobi and finishes them within 1 move. That's just simply *his style*. Itachi's style also relies on finishing opponents fast, which was how he's done so vs Deidara, Orochimaru and Kakashi.  

Anyways, Jiraiya HIMSELF already stated that it's impossible to fight perfectly without looking, so your argument is flawed from the start. 



> It’s like Itachi sees Tsunade charge a huge amount of chakra into her fist with sharingan and still decides to try and block the punch with his arm instead of Susanoo because he underestimates how strong her strike is going to be and dies instantly.



Comparing Tsunade's obvious punch to Itachi's stealthy/subtle genjutsu is just you being dishonest. Dodging a punch is much easier than avoiding genjutsu.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 21, 2019)

Ziggy Don't Look Into His Eyes Stardust said:


> Yes, We, the audience, reading a manga that is clearly designed to be viewed from a 3rd person perspective can see his eyes.



Oh really?

So why doesn't this also apply to Jiraiya?

I mean when we see Jiraiya and Itachi's eyes it's all "JIRAIYA STARED INTO ITACHI'S EYES *SNORTLE*" But if it's Kabouto it's all of a sudden " Theme and perspective"

Rofl

Nice try Zigmund, but no fucking dice.



> This doesn't tell us that :
> 
> 1) Itachi can see his eyes
> 2) That Kabuto is looking at Itachi's eyes, which is the prerequisite for tsukuyomi anyway



Zigmund, Ziggy, Zig......if we can see Kabuto's eyes Itachi can. See the artist is giving us a representation of what the characters are interacting with. When they want us to see eyes, eyes are viewable. When they want us to see his eyes are obscured (like when his extra lens comes into play) they show us that.

The art isn't intended to mislead us, it's supposed to show us what is.




> The fact his head is titled donwards for the entire conversation is evidence that he wasn't making eye contact et all.



His eyes are tilted up, towards Itachi, then they show us Itachi looking at Kabuto.

Itachi isn't far, maybe 10-15 feet.

If you are looking at a persons face that is 10 feet away with your head tilted down what do you *have* to do? You guessed it champ, look up.



> Your point ? Other than that you were high while making this post ?



My point is that your argument is just as nonsensical as paint by the eyes.

Oh and WOOOOOOOOOOOO



> > Kabuto's eyes looking that "far up"
> > Middle panel shows Kabuto's head titled down
> 
> You really are the gift that keeps on giving.



Kabuto is literally looking as far up as possible. I mean I supposed his eyes could roll backwards into his head, but this is enough.



Ziggy Stardust said:


> Oh by the way, this is Asuma and Kurenai looking at Itachi's feet, avoiding his gaze :
> 
> Is the panel and the clear intention behind it contradicted because reader can see their eyes ?



Is this even for real?





Zigmundo....Itachi was 80-100 feet away from Asuma and Kurenai.

reading

He is like 15 feet max from Kabuto.

reading

If your eyes are in the same position will you view something different 15 feet away vs 100 feet away?

Don't bother answering, it's a rhetorical question.

Nice talk homie.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Oh really?
> 
> So why doesn't this also apply to Jiraiya?
> 
> ...





So is Gai looking at Itachi's eyes too? Despite Gai saying he's looking at the feet?  Look at the chapter where Gai saved Kakashi from Kisame. 

Compare that to Kabuto and tell me which one is more likely to be trying to avoid eye contact?


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## Turrin (Jan 21, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya using smoke bombs and attacking inside it DOES NOT mean that he can fight blind. Where do you even get that conclusion from?
> 
> Jiraiya HIMSELF stated that even when you're a sensor, defending effectively without looking at an attack is impossible. You can't even scale Kabuto's SM feats to Jiraiya's either when Kabuto is utilising a different type of SM AND he's been enhanced by other abilities such as Snake heat sensing & Karin's ability.
> 
> ...


1. Jiraiya blocks LoS and then effectively fights blind; Yet where am I getting it from that he can fight blind... huh

And Jiraiya is saying you can’t fight as effectively blind as you could with sight. Which is a given, doesn’t mean he can’t do it effectively enough. And we’ve seen Naruto do it in his SM against Pain too, so it’s not something exclusive to Kabuto. And as far as Kabuto having extra abilities like Snake Heat detection and possibly Karin sensing. I’ll see that and raise you Ma biological tongue detection, Jiraiya motion barrier, and the sensing of two other Sages (Ma/Pa).

2. We saw Pa warn Jiraiya and react to Human realm attempting to Ambush Jiraiya from behind


3. So your saying Hashirama avoids eye contact because Itachi is an Uchiha. Then why wouldn’t Jiriaya he also has Decades of experience maybe not fighting against Uchiha but with them during wars. As  I said it is a plea from ignorance to believe Jiraiya despite himself &/or Elder Toads sensing at the very least that Itachi is an Uber powerful Uchiha that Jiriaya will still underestimate Itachi genjutsu enough to look him in the eyes mid battle.

4. Itachi did not avoid all of KCM Narutos punches and kicks be blocked them physically. We see him physically guard other attacks through the series too. Even times when he used a weapon to guard, Put Tsunade in that position and he’d be dead. For that matter put Torune in a position where Itachi blocks him physically  and he’d be dead. And we can go on like this; if you make any character ignorant enough to underestimate the other character they can loose to plenty of things they should otherwise be able to counter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Prince Idonojie (Jan 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Jiraiya blocks LoS and then effectively fights blind; Yet where am I getting it from that he can fight blind... huh


 Good point. All true Sages can fight blind; it comes with the whole being one with nature stuff.


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## Prince Idonojie (Jan 21, 2019)

Also detecting a genjutsu, whether one that is about to be casted or already casted, is a non issue to a focused sensor because that sensor nin will immediately detect the act of chakra moulding (pre-cast) or fluctuations in the the chakra system (post-cast).


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 21, 2019)

I think you missed the point......



Sapherosth said:


> So is Gai looking at Itachi's eyes too? Despite Gai saying he's looking at the feet?  Look at the chapter where Gai saved Kakashi from Kisame.



Gai is standing in the middle of Kurenai and Asuma.

reading

Even when he showed up he was still much closer to the team than Itachi. (Itachi was the furthest away while it was Kisame who was closing in)

reading


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 21, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Oh really?
> 
> So why doesn't this also apply to Jiraiya?



Easy.  Because Jiraiya was making eye contact with Itachi.

Kabuto wasn't.



ShinAkuma said:


> I mean when we see Jiraiya and Itachi's eyes it's all "JIRAIYA STARED INTO ITACHI'S EYES *SNORTLE*" But if it's Kabouto it's all of a sudden " Theme and perspective"



We *can* put it down to _theme and perspective s_een as Kabuto :

1 - never did look at Itachi's eyes
2 - made efforts to keep his hood up and head down while talking to him
3 - Sealed his eyes off completely in battle
4 - Made it clear he's trying to avoid his genjutsu
5 -  Has much greater knowledge of the classic arts, Kekie Genkai and Sage lore than Jiraiya

Jiriaya has none of the above, did look at Itachi square in the face and more importantly, didn't think to tell naruto to avoid Itachi's eyes under his tutelage. Both before and after Tsukyomi was cast vs Sasuke. So the answer is very simple : Kabuto and Jiraiya aren't comparable in this instance. You brought forth a comparison that actually debunks your own premise. Quite the clever girl you are.



ShinAkuma said:


> Zigmund, Ziggy, Zig......if we can see Kabuto's eyes Itachi can.





Then you'll have to tell me what trickery Itachi is employing while having a full view of Kabuto's back here :

*Link Removed*

.... Whilst being in front of him

You truly are a gemstone of wisdom. But the Manga is _almost always_ viewed from a 3rd person perspective (duh). There are exceptions, and they're usually clearly articulated; such as when Itachi is searching for Kabuto's chakra :


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




We're given a view of the naruto world from his translucent perspective. If the we could see through Itachi's eyes during his and Kabuto's conversation - where you _allege _they were staring each other up (lol) - Kabuto's face would blend in with his own intricate chakra network, as oppose to being the opaque portrait presented to us.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 21, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust Professor Of Theme and Perspective said:


> Easy.  Because Jiraiya was making eye contact with Itachi.
> 
> Kabuto wasn't.



You interpret it that way, but nothing confirms that eye contact was made. You see two panel and equate it to eye contact.

That's the entire point.



> We *can* put it down to _theme and perspective s_een as Kabuto :
> 
> 1 - never did look at Itachi's eyes



Except we are shown Kabuto and Itachi looking at each other. Not really any different that Jiraiya/Itachi with the exception that you prefer one over the other.



> 2 - made efforts to keep his hood up and head down while talking to him



While lifting his gaze to meet Itachi's.



> 3 - Sealed his eyes off completely in battle
> 4 - Made it clear he's trying to avoid his genjutsu



Yes, after the scene in question. Not only that Kabuto makes an effort to hide his face and turn away *after the fact*.

If wearing a cloak and bad posture was enough to protect him, he would not have needed to take further measures. Obviously he felt his previous position was vulnerable so he took even *more precautions*



> 5 -  Has much greater knowledge of the classic arts, Kekie Genkai and Sage lore than Jiraiya



Sure I guess.....?



> Jiriaya has none of the above, did look at Itachi square in the face and more importantly, didn't think to tell naruto to avoid Itachi's eyes in his under his tutelage. Both before and after Tsukyomi was cast vs Sasuke. So the answer is very simple : Kabuto and Jiraiya aren't comparable in this instance. You brought forth a comparison that actually debunks your own premise. Quite the clever girl you are.



Clearly you are not aware of what is going on here.

Panel of Jiraiya looking forward = staring into Itachi's eyes

Panel of Kabuto looking forward = staring at Itachi's feet

Itachi's feet are not 6 FEET IN THE AIR

No amount gymnastic excuses can change what we were shown. Kabuto can only be looking at Itachi's face. I am simply exposing the double standard being employed. One set of panel MUST MEAN Jiraiya was staring at Itachi while another set of comparable panels MUST MEAN Kabuto was avoiding Iatchi's gaze.



> Then you'll have to tell me what trickery Itachi is employing while having a full view of Kabuto's back here :
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> .... Whilst being in front of him



We have panels of Kabuto looking at Itachi. Obviously they aren't staring at each other in every instance.

The panel in question meet the same level of evidence that was present during the Jiraiya/Itachi encounter.

Again, that is the point.



> You truly are a gemstone of wisdom.



Why thank you.

I will do my best to elevate the plebs such as yourself to some semblance of logic.

It's a tough job, nigh impossible, but somebody has got to do it.



> But the Manga is _almost always_ viewed from a 3rd person perspective (duh). There are exceptions, and they're usually clearly articulated; such as when Itachi is searching for Kabuto's chakra :



Again, and you remain oblivious, any esoteric excuse you provide to hide from the obvious can be used to argue for Jiraiya. It's the point.

Yeah I get it, you want to ride the theme/perspective excuse as far as it will take you. (nowhere) The problem is Kishi has *no reason* to show Kabuto looking at Itachi if he wanted to convey that Kabuto was actually looking at his feet.



> We're given a view of the naruto world from his translucent perspective. If the we could see through Itachi's eyes during his and Kabuto's conversation - where you _allege _they were staring each other up (lol) - Kabuto's face would blend in with his own intricate chakra network, as oppose to being the opaque portrait presented to us.



Kabuto wasn't employing his liquid state when they were squaring off and staring at each other....

For a guy all about "theme and perspective" you sure seem to miss the obvious.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 21, 2019)

Bruh.... This is a spite thread.

Jiraiya isn't even a match for 3 tomoe Itachi.  here is why.
1)-Itachi has clone feinted every single person he has fought against. Name one person who he has failed to clone feint. I'll patiently wait....
a) People like to claim that Kakashi feinted Itachi, when in reality it was the other way around. Kakashi's water clone had HUGE ass exclamation points when Itachi suddenly stabbed it from behind. Notice how Kakashi negletected to mention any clone when he was talking about how impressed he  was with Itachi's shuriken and water style. He failed to communciate to Kurenai that she was standing next to an exploding clone. He clearly didn't know. Meanwhile, Itachi showed NO SIGNS of surprise at all when the Kakashi he stabbed turned out to be a water clone. Itachi and Kakashi clearly know each other well from their days in the anbu. Itachi expected a clone feint. He was only unsure about where the real Kakashi would attack him from, which is why he moved a safe distance away and left an explode clone as bait which successfully lured both Kakashi and Kurenai into a trap. Kakashi only realized what happened AFTER the fact and quickly moved to save Kurenai, and Itachi delayed the explosion of his clone to ensure they got away in time. Even Kakashi stated what Itachi showed there was just his morning stretch. In part two Kakashi feinted Itachi who only had thirty percent of his power, didn't use any hand seal speed, and even Kakahsi said SOMETHING WASN"T RIGHT. Itachi clearly jobbed.

b) Itachi substituted out with a clone during a shuriken clash and had the clone grapple Sasuke. That clone could have exploded and that would be that. The Real Itachi was seen jumping up from behind and to the right both his clone and Sasuke and throwing 3 diagonal kunai at Sasuke. The real Itachi is the one that landed to Sasuke's left. Itachi always substitutes out with clones and moves to safe distance away. You can even See that the clone was holding a single  kunai in its right hand,  and Sasuke genuinely thought that clone was the real Itachi, which is why he aimed his shuriken at it, and was surprised to see that it was a clone. 

c) Clone feinted both EMS Sasuke and SM Kabuto at the same time with crow clone+ the art of substitution, TWICE I might add.

d) Clone feinted Killer Bee, Nagato and KCM naruto all at the same time after releasing a fireball. He left a shadow clone in his place and went for a skydiving trip from above. He was only sensed AFTER he dispelled his shadow clone, and Killer Bee was in the worst spot because he isn't a sensor type. Itachi's shunshin also was enough to speed blitz Killer Bee from behind without Killer Bee being able to mentally react, Itachi told Bee that Itachi was behind him for a reason, and Killer Bee responded with"Got it" LMAO. Itachi can just outright speed blitz Jiraiya with a kunai to the back of his head.

Jiraiya isn't tracking or reacting to Itachi's clone formations which can get the drop on him from above or behind at Itachi's command, especially since Itachi has way better hand seal speed.

2) Genjutsu
a)No knowledge on ephemeral.
b) arguably already looked into Itachi's eyes/  isn't careful enough not to in the canon as Ziggy already pointed out.
c) He isn't breaking out of Shackling Stakes, which completely shut down Oro, or any of Itachi's genjutsu for that matter.
d) Isn't detecting he is in genjutsu in the first place. Deidara couldn't, 3 tomoe Sasuke couldn't, Killer Bee + Gyuki couldn't.... All  3 of these people had to be given massive hints or outright told that they were in Genjutsu by Itachi....
e) Itachi's genjutsu canonically cannot be detected by sensor types, as Ao very clearly stated in Chapter 540 of the Viz...
So yeah Jiraiya is cucked here.
3)
Amaterasu.... yeah, A technique fast enough that Ayy felt the need to immediately elevate to V2 for. Nagato couldn't react. Jiraiya had no knowledge on it at the time so he is toast.

4)Susano'o. Strikes fast in all cases as Obito stated... Nagato couldn't react to a giant and noisy Susano'o hand sliding on the ground next to him. Totsuka blitzed both Oro and Nagato without either of them being able to mentally react, it moved so fast that Oro was caught in between words and said "eh?" AFTER it already pierced through him. It was too fast for the optic nerve to process. Jiraiya loses to Totsuka Blitz GG, no strategy needed at all. He also can't get through Yata which will adapt to all of his attacks, as per canon.

5) Intelligence.... Itachi is a genius and has consistently been shown to plan 4 moves ahead in his fights with strategies to end the fight before it begins. He defeated someone as smart SM Kabuto on the first move.  The Toad Sage is smart and experienced and showed impressive creativity against Pain but he is up against someone who is much faster than he is in most relevant categories and has a bunch of unprecedented abilities to boot.

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## Lawrence777 (Jan 21, 2019)

So Turrin I'm breaking this into 2 sections/scenarios:

First one I'm just exploring the rabbit hole / specific scenario you envisioned; Will critique but not change any of the starting conditions, and just compare my conclusion of the match to yours.

Second one is a devil's advocate section for my take on Jiraiya's best case scenario for victory against Itachi.

Itachi's sick here so his chakra reserves are restricted to what he used the day he died but he can use reserves anyway he chooses. That basically means 1Crow Clone/2 Grand Fireball/1 Tsukiyomi/2 Amaterasu/1 Transcription seal Amaterasu /  prolonged Susano'o usage(V4-V2) and numerous 3T genjutsu use.


Scenario I- (Turrin's setting)

Itachi has killing intent against Jiraiya, he's trying to capture Naruto
Itachi never used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi or Sasuke. Jiraiya sees Itachi use some genjutsu used on Genin Sasuke before he falls unconscious
The fight starts after Itachi and Kisame escapes Toad Stomach with Amaterasu
No matter how much commotion the fight causes other Konoha Shinobi won’t show up.

Jiraiya starts in sage mode
The fight is separate; Kisame fights a SM clone of Jiraiya, Itachi fights SM Jiraiya himself
Reservations about the stipulations
I have three main reservations about this scenario you envisioned Turrin. Most egregious is Jiraiya starting in sage mode. The ability to enter the mode quickly[1] and seamlessly[2] is something reserved for students more mastered in the art. We already saw Jiraiya enter SM on panel, and it takes him noticeably longer than other users of the technique[1]. So giving him instant-SM (when we know he can't enter it immediately / must hold his hands together, which presents openings to an opponent) is a straight forward buff of his character as we know him. This wouldn't be Jiraiya but Jiraiya+ compared to his feats on panel.

Secondly Itachi has already used a MS ability / Amaterasu to escape Jiraiya's Toad Stomach. That ability is more easily employed in doors and Jiraiya used it while Itachi was focused on his brother and not Jiraiya. This scenario therefore starts Jiraiya on an advantageous footing since this is effectively Sick Itachi- by chakra expenditure.

Thirdly Kisame and Itachi fight separately when potentially they'd fight together. They are in hostile territory and the sum of their parts maybe greater than the parts separate. It also assumes Jiraiya sends a clone to Kisame and not Itachi, when he lacks knowledge on either of them or their rough strength levels or abilities for the most part at this point. Which takes us into the battle.

*Itachi vs SM Jiraiya*
Jiraiya is lacking important knowledge on Itachi's abilities and how to go about dealing with them. He saw and dispelled the genjutsu on the women Itachi sent to lure him away, and he saw Sasuke scream / pass out after Itachi used his eye. 

Jiraiya's (and Ma/Pa's) knowledge at best in so far as how to deal with Uchiha sharingan users that use illusions maybe generic[1]. Jiraiya may resort to using conventional defenses against visual genjutsu[2] like sensing each other's chakra[3], breaking each other out[4], or using clones to present more targets and potentially take the flank as Chiyo speculated. With 2 toad sages sensors/Kai breakers at the ready on his shoulders he has no reason to resort to blind fighting which he even considers a disadvantage[5], he'll think his bases on genjutsu defense are covered and tell them to be wary and look out for disturbances. He lacks Kakashi's advanced knowledge on Tsukiyomi itself[6] and that you must always avoid eye contact because the effects can't really be sensed nor cancelled by a partner due to its near instant time interval, at least  when they first meet(maybe Kakashi tells him later after he recovers).

With that said there's no reason Jiraiya resorts to all out sight deprivation when he quite frankly has greater genjutsu defense than most shinobi at this point in SM, and no knowledge to suggest his existing countermeasures are inadequate. Secondly even if he did, Jiraiya lacks Kabuto's heightened additional snake senses[7], his perfect balance SM[8], and Kabuto's confidence in fighting blind in order to defeat Uchiha[9][10]. Jiraiya himself doesn't think  fighting without eyesight just sensory is good enough to dodge even for sensors[11], is not practiced in it, and would in the end ultimately produce greater openings for an opponent were it to come to that.

Concerning Amaterasu he has no knowledge on it's execution nor projectile speed nor seal-less nature. He shouldn't even know if Kisame or Itachi used it at this point in the story. Concerning Susano'o he has no knowledge that we know of, something that can be a nasty surprise in cqc [12] or at range [13].

Concerning handling these latter two fast attacks, even if we grant the toad sages can sense chakra build up before dojutsu usage ( only Obito/Nagato did so w/ sensing) that's a) entirely ambiguous to the nature of the upcoming attack except that it's powerful( for all they know Toad Oil Flame Bullet is coming) b) slower/less efficient than if Jiraiya himself were to sense and react, rather that hear it from an ally. 

I don't see how anyone concludes Jiraiya with the knowledge he has here, detects chakra and says "well I need to block line of sight" when he could just as easily decide he needs to make a doton wall or summon Gamaken to block or whatever he chooses. 

These attacks while already hard to avoid with knowledge and sensing and speed, are practically a death sentence for Jiraiya because he lacks knowledge on them and has weakened his own perception further through fighting blind if he does ultimately encounter them. And if he doesn't blind himself he most likely eats a Tsukiyomi.
*My View:*

Under these conditions I'd say Jiraiya has a 80% chance of fighting with eye sight ( avoiding direct eye contact where possible) with his known countermeasures vs genjutsu and 100% chance of losing to Tsukiyomi in which case he'd survive and mark Naruto to save him who gets captured in this scenario, and a 20% chance of fighting without eyesight, and 100% chance of losing either to Amaterasu or Susano'o somewhere amidst their fight and being killed altogether by if not the first MS usage then the second. I have a rough sketch of their moves IC for how it reaches that conclusion but this is basically the end result of when they engage for me. 

He has better odds with knowledge for me and I'll do a second scenario where he gets knowledge from Konoha shinobi beforehand + their brief encounter in the hallway and trains / prepares to fight blind beforehand, which is his best case scenario for fighting Itachi imo.

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## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2019)

Impressively false head cannon 
I had a laugh
none of this explains how Jiriaya doesn’t die to Susanoo 
Or Amaterasu he still has no counters for


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## Turrin (Jan 21, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> I have three main reservations about this scenario you envisioned Turrin. Most egregious is Jiraiya starting in sage mode. The ability to enter the mode quickly[1] and seamlessly[2] is something reserved for students more mastered in the art. We already saw Jiraiya enter SM on panel, and it takes him noticeably longer than other users of the technique[1]. So giving him instant-SM (when we know he can't enter it immediately / must hold his hands together, which presents openings to an opponent) is a straight forward buff of his character as we know him. This wouldn't be Jiraiya but Jiraiya+ compared to his feats on panel.
> 
> Secondly Itachi has already used a MS ability / Amaterasu to escape Jiraiya's Toad Stomach. That ability is more easily employed in doors and Jiraiya used it while Itachi was focused on his brother and not Jiraiya. This scenario therefore starts Jiraiya on an advantageous footing since this is effectively Sick Itachi- by chakra expenditure.
> 
> Thirdly Kisame and Itachi fight separately when potentially they'd fight together. They are in hostile territory and the sum of their parts maybe greater than the parts separate. It also assumes Jiraiya sends a clone to Kisame and not Itachi, when he lacks knowledge on either of them or their rough strength levels or abilities for the most part at this point. Which takes us into the battle.



1. Jiraiya staring off in an advantaged scenario indoors at best negates the disadvantage of having to protect Naruto and Sasuke; as I said in the opening had Jiraiya not needed to rush to Narutos side he could have prepped Sage Mode or used any number of techniques before engaging Itachi & Kisame, such as hiding in the shadow of Bushin (like he did when tracking down Pain, except using a Bushin here as he wouldn’t use a Konoha citizen as he did with the Ame one)

2. Jiraiya achieving Sage Mode was left out because we don’t know how each party would act. Yes normally Jiriaya takes time to enter Sage Mode, but then he also has means to buy that time like Toad Gourd or escaping detection Fromm Kisame and Itachi with Gamagakuru technique. I just didn’t want to go into all those hypotheticals and just wanted to talk about the match itself.

3. I don’t think Kisame fighting on his own is worse, most of his moves are massive and don’t play nice with Itachi; like Water Shark dance; if anything this is more beneficial for Itachi that Kisame fights on his own. Plus if Kisame doesn’t it’s basically going to come down to the same thing anyway with Jiraiya having his moves counters by Susanoo and then going for Frog-Song; and Itachi trying to stop him.

4. When it comes to Jiraiya looking Itachi in the eyes and eating a Tskuyomi; can I ask you what stops Hashirama from lossing to Tskuyomi this way? What stops Minato? And so on?

5. Jiraiya doesn’t think fighting blind is as good as fighting with sight, which is obvious, but it doesn’t mean he can’t fight that way; he actually employed that strategy against another Dojutsu. So I can’t  agree that it’s something he wouldn’t employ here. As far as him being inferior to Kabuto; maybe he is alone but not with Ma/Pa assisting him.

6. How does Hashirama not die to Amaterasu if he doesn’t have knowledge? Personally I think these character would send the build up of powerful chakra to the eyes and take defensive measures as we saw Ei take even though he didn’t know exactly what Mangekyo technique Sasuke was going to use. Jiraiya. But what do you think?

7. Overall as i said this is a plea to ignorance argument; which is all I ever see from people who say Itachi definitely wins, never giving any consideration to the idea that Jiriaya is not ignorant. Never considering that Jiriaya does have counters as long as he doesn’t underestimate Itachi. As I said to others I could make the same argument for Sakura low diffing Itachi; she attacks him in cqc and he tries to block with an arm guard and gets his head punched off cause he doesn’t realize how strong Sakura is. Sakura > Itachi.....

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## Ishmael (Jan 21, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato couldn't react.




Uhmmm..... lol nagato was being controlled my guy. We've seen that Shinra tensei can troll it and no matter what others think it's chakra based so yes preta would as well.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 21, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Uhmmm..... lol nagato was being controlled my guy. We've seen that Shinra tensei can troll it and no matter what others think it's chakra based so yes preta would as well.




ST couldn't be used because it's probably on cooldown, but preta not being used is not a viable excuse at all because it's not on cooldown and kabuto obviously has knowledge on preta. 

It's either 1) Tosuka is too fast or 2) Preta cannot absorb it.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 22, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> ST couldn't be used because it's probably on cooldown, but preta not being used is not a viable excuse at all because it's not on cooldown and kabuto obviously has knowledge on preta.
> 
> It's either 1) Tosuka is too fast or 2) Preta cannot absorb it.


Random thought; can you imagine the arguments Jman fans would be making if he had Totsuka? They turned dust clouds into S-rank Jutsu, now picture what they’d be doing with Totsuka


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## Sapherosth (Jan 22, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Random thought; can you imagine the arguments Jman fans would be making if he had Totsuka? They turned dust clouds into S-rank Jutsu, now picture what they’d be doing with Totsuka




Bruh, Jiraiya would be invincible.


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## Trojan (Jan 22, 2019)

you put a nice effort in your post.

But honestly, people are just putting too much thought into this. I realize itachi's fans dilemma and how they want their favorite to be as strong as possible, but the answer for what would happen is already given to us in the manga. There isn't much you can do/say from there. What Kishi wants to happen will happen whether you (general, not Turrin specifically) think it makes sense or not.  

and the fact of the matter is, Jiraiya is stronger than itachi as far as canon goes.  

it's been more than 4 years since the manga ended. No one changed his/her opinion, and it's unlikely that they would change it now.
Good news is, their opinion does not change reality. 

Thank you....


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## Ishmael (Jan 22, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> ST couldn't be used because it's probably on cooldown, but preta not being used is not a viable excuse at all because it's not on cooldown and kabuto obviously has knowledge on preta.
> 
> It's either 1) Tosuka is too fast or 2) Preta cannot absorb it.



Totsuka, bruh what are you talking about? Im speaking on amaterasu.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 22, 2019)

@Ishmael 
My point is that Nagato was on Edo Tensei autopilot at the time.... we clearly see him being forced to shinra Tensei Killer Bee's Sword against their will. Nagato was shown to be able to sense amaterasu but he can't physically react. Sure, he can shinra Tensei it AFTER it lands or absorb with Preta.



Hussain said:


> you put a nice effort in your post.
> 
> But honestly, people are just putting too much thought into this. I realize itachi's fans dilemma and how they want their favorite to be as strong as possible, but the answer for what would happen is already given to us in the manga. There isn't much you can do/say from there. What Kishi wants to happen will happen whether you (general, not Turrin specifically) think it makes sense or not.
> 
> ...



Bruh, this is a cop out. Aren't you the same person that denied that Itachi was a double agent for Konoha , planned by Kishimoto (as the author very clearly stated himself ) the second Itachi was introduced in Chapter 140-142?
Implied that Jiraiya can resist Itachi's Kotoamatsukami which we know for a fact he had available by part 2, but I'm, sure even Koto wouldn't change the outcoome am I right?
Implied that Jiraiya can solo the whole Akatsuki?

I like how you focus on one sketchy statement of a character known for his expert skill in lying (as stated by Kabuto himself)in a context where he has EVERY REASON TO LIE, and ignore Kisame's statement that a retreat shouldn't have been necessary for Itachi. Or how you Ignored that Itachi already exhausted over half his stamina by the time he even engaged Jiraiya. 
You seriously think that Itachi was gonna kill Jiraiya and capture naruto that day? No man, that was all a ploy. If Itachi wanted to, he could have brought Pain with him and Konoha  (and Jiraiya) would be done.  He went to Konoha because Nagato knew the village was weak and it would be the best time to preemptively capture the nine tails, but as per Itachi and Obito's agreement only Itachi was allowed to deal with any direct engagements with the village, something that Nagato didn't know about. Itachi still needed to have a good reason to come back empty handed, and he showed it, like wasting Tsukuyomi on Kakashi and purposely not killing him, allowing him to use the stamina excuse to leave Konoha, and following it up with the fact that Akatsuki can be patient. Except, three years went by and Itachi never came back, you think that was a coincidence?


Bruh, Itachi's feats even in part one stomp Jiraiya. No one in this thread will address Itachi's clone feinting speed or hand seal speed advantage. 

I can legit just copy and paste what a JOBBING Itachi was able to do to Kakashi. Jiraiya tries to open with the classic Yomi Numa GG?
No problem bro, Itachi sees his seals with the sharingan and sees through the formation of the swamp with his incredible reflexes and sharingan, and uses his near instant hand seal speed just like he did to Kakashi, weaves Kage Bunshin+  art substitution jutsu in his robe and takes to the skies , above Jiraiya's field of vision. The clone gets trapped in Yomi numa but stands it's ground and The clone then sheathes shurikens like it did to Kakashi, then Itachi points his pinky finger at Jiraiya, GG. Jiraiya is now in genjutsu while he trapped a CLONE in Yomi Numa. Even if we go by this fanfic of Jiraiya starting in SM (LMAO) , genjutsu is known to be able to affect more than one target if you put some more chakra in. Pa , Ma, and Jiraiya are all getting caught in finger genjutsu and they won't expect it. They will be stunned for more than a few seconds minimum, and when they break out, it won't be before the real Itachi activates him with Amaterasu to the head from above, just like he could have done to Killer Bee.



In Part 2, even more feats that stomp Jiraiya and much better hype from characters who are>>> Jiraiya.


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## Ishmael (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato was shown to be able to sense amaterasu



Yeah nagato was. He also had no intentions to truly combat either of the shinobi and didn't resist at all to it. You read the scans and it's clear that he didn't even care to move or go against it, his personality was in control.  He was more concerned on figuring out and realizing what itachi did to release himself from edo tensei control. 1


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 22, 2019)

@Turrin 1) Ok but again this is why it should of been a more neutral scenario ie no kids around, no extra konoha shinobi, and maybe 2 different fighting environments 1 outdoors 1 indoors. You just chose indoors, which is an advantage for Jiraiya.

2)Ok I understand not wanted to go through all the hypotheticals of Jiraiya reaching SM, and just focusing on the fight. But there is still the question of a)_when_ jiraiya decides he needs SM during a fight b) how / if he enters it _under duress_. 

By starting him in SM, you assume Jiraiya decided he needs SM at the start, and assumed Jiraiya has no difficulty or problems reaching SM vs his adversaries. Both of these assumption are advantageous for Jiraiya. 

3) Kisame can potentially create openings for Itachi as well as restore his chakra reserves, it depends on what happens. Still its fine as he can also be an impediment so I won't fight this issue.

4)Tsukiyomi can be healed by advanced enough medical ninjutsu. Hashirama has advanced seal less medical ninjutsu, so even if he is hit by Tsukiyomi he may continue fighting and kill Itachi anyway rather than the fight end then and there. Factoring in their respective portrayal/power level, I think the former is more likely. Tsukiyomi would oneshot Minato if it landed though IMO as he has no known outs and someone of Itachi's portrayal represents a reasonable lethal threat to him IMO. Most kage get oneshotted by successful Tsukiyomi though, you win by not being hit by it.

5) The reason we're comparing Kabuto and Jiraiya is "since Kabuto dodged Susano'o arrow and fought blind vs Uchiha to evade genjutsu, Jiraiya in SM can too". 
Thing is

Kabuto has prepared to fight blind and is comfortable with 
Kabuto knew about Amaterasu/Tsukiyomi before they fought
Kabuto has greater olfactory senses, greater heat senses, snake eyelids, and a more perfect balanced sage mode than Jiraiya
Jiraiya doesn't usually fight blind without eyes, is unfamiliar with it, and is doing it for the very first time against Itachi on the fly.
Jiraiya doesn't know about any of Itachi's techniques
Jiraiya has less sensing capabilities than SM Kabuto.
And yeah he punched through a small dustcloud toward an enemy he knew was inside it, not sure that's comparable to Kabuto. Put simply it's easier to scale feats when the person your scaling from is inferior, not superior(at least concerning sensing).

6)Well a)Hashirama probably has knowledge on Amaterasu/Enton, it didn't seem to surprise him nor Tobirama one bit b)He can use tajuu kage bushin to present an infinite number of targets for Itachi, and he's so good with these clones even Madara could not tell them apart and was feinted fatally. 
Hashirama's overall portrayal would almost always lead me to come up with an excuse for how he survives Amaterasu ie. growing mokuton out his body, absorbing the chakra flames w/ mokuton, using tajuu kage bushin. That's because just by _portrayal_ Itachi shouldn't be able to successfully oneshot the guy at least not without substantial help and teamwork. Jiraiya meanwhile _falls squarely_ in the realm of power Itachi can / has been able to oneshot before. Furthermore, he has the same chakra drawbacks with clones as anyone else, and he's never feinted/outsmarted someone like Itachi. 



> 7. Overall as i said this is a plea to ignorance argument; which is all I ever see from people who say Itachi definitely wins, never giving any consideration to the idea that Jiriaya is not ignorant. Never considering that Jiriaya does have counters as long as he doesn’t underestimate Itachi. As I said to others I could make the same argument for Sakura low diffing Itachi; she attacks him in cqc and he tries to block with an arm guard and gets his head punched off cause he doesn’t realize how strong Sakura is. Sakura > Itachi.....


Except Itachi almost always uses a clone, maybe a crow clone, maybe an illusion of a clone, maybe an exploding clone, but almost always he uses a clone before presenting himself as a possible target. Ergo, a logical argument can be made, that Itachi's first move is...the move he _usually_ does in IC... which means a _clone.
_
Sakura vs Itachi is more likely to end in a clone popping and revealing the super strength to Itachi than him being oneshotted by it. Just going by the numbers on-panel based on past behavior.

Jiraiya has no such record.

Furthermore, sensing chakra build up and an attack is coming can mean a)defense ninjutsu b) get ready to dodge c) kuchiyose block defense d)smoke obscure los e) _whatever._
You and alot of Jiraiya supporters make an assumption that he always does the best move to counter Amaterasu, while I make the assumption that without specific knowledge on the attack, he does any generic countering move.

Same thing for having two sensors and kai breakers on your shoulders. You have 2 individuals literally on your shoulders that can sense chakra and detect disturbances / illusions in the body AND use kai to release if necessary. Why would someone like that, who does not fancy blind fighting, who does not know about Tsukiyomi, be OOC? It's because imo we often give our knowledge as readers to our champions we are rooting for, which often can obscure how the character, with _their_ knowledge of the situation would react.
--
And calling bias is redundant. You can be biased and believe in climate change or be biased and not believe in climate change. Only 1 of those people would be an idiot though. 

More often than not it can become ad hominen, which is where instead of arguing about a specific point made by a party, you attack the party's integrity and suggest because of a prior leaning, the point made itself must be wrong, when the point may still be correct regardless of the source it came from.

Not you in particular @Turrin  actually quite enjoy your breakdowns on a lot of things related to Naruto and for the most part when you believe something your going to breakdown exactly why you believe it if prompted to.

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## Turrin (Jan 22, 2019)

@Lawrence777

1. I only choose the scenario because I was requested to do P1 Itachi vs Jiraiya and this is the only time they could have fought then (also the novelty of it)

2. If SM-Jiriaya still looses to Itachi it doesn’t matter to the overall conclusion of who wins, if Jiraiya starts in SM or not. It only matters if Itachi would loose to SM-Jiraiya. So why bother?

3. Hashirama still has to activate his regeneration, evident by the fact that he could be killed by Kunai stab if he doesn’t. If he’s KOd by the mental damage of Tsukuyomi he can’t activate his regen and he’d loose. How is Minato avoiding Tskuyomi? I just feel like we can make the argument that anyone looses to Tsukuyomi if they underestimate Itachi no matter how strong they actually are (unless they have a Dojutsu). It’s like Luffy loosing to DF hax from characters way weaker then him in One Piece all the time cause he doesn’t have knowledge and underestimates them. So it’s kind of a meaningless metic to discuss, and instead the conversation should be focused on how the battle would go if Itachi enemy doesn’t underestimate him.

4. Kabuto is a superior sensor to Jiraiya; he is not a superior sensor to Jiriaya, Ma, & Pa. Those three combined are superior to just Kabuto.

5. So why wasn’t Hashirama killed the first time Madara used Amaterasu on him? And Hashirama portrayal causing you to come up with an excuse is fine. Jiraiya also has portrayal that indicates he likely wouldn’t loose to Itachi Amaterasu and we don’t even need to come up with an excuse we know he has a counter by blocking LOS and relying on Sensing. Jiraiya also has huge reserves in SM and can easily make several clones.

6. Itachi did not use a clone and instead opted to attack KCM Naruto in Taijutsu and physical block KCM Naruto blows. This was an individual that had Kyuubi Chakra covering his entire body and he still opted to physical clash with said individual. I have no reason to believe the same couldn’t happen with Sakura who he has no knowledge of and appears far less intimidating physically. Jiraiya actually when he went looking for Pain opted to hide in the shadow of a Amegakuru Shinobi from the very start of the fight.

7. I only assume Jiraiya act the way he did in the Pain fight. When he saw how dangerous Pain Dojutsu was he tried to avoid its sight by throwing down a smokescreen and attacking from behind; when that didn’t work due to shared vision he threw down another smokescreen to block their sight, and fell back into the pipes of Amegakuru to fully escape their sight and think of the best counter measure with Ma/Pa. I’m just assuming he does something similar here when the three hear sense Itachi incredibly Doryoku, when Itachi activates his Mangekyo.

Let me ask you something do you think SM-Jiraiya can beat Itachi if he has full knowledge of Itachi Mangekyo capabilities.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Jiraya starts in SM


Good

Otherwise this isnt even a discussion


Turrin said:


> So let’s start with KB vs Kisame. SM Jiraiya is faster then Kisame and more physically capable it’s not like Kisame can pop the SM clone easily and actually he will be overwhelmed in cqc


Yeah no

Already bullshit

Yeah sure, Jiraiya might be faster than Kisame is, but Kisame has feats of reacting to V1 Killer bee with no diff AND ...This is a fighter MUCH faster than SM Jiraiya...And Kisame could easily contend with his speeds, so Jmans speed wont do him much here. Hed have an advantage, but his advantage is nowhere near as stark as Bees was and Kisame already demonstrated he can more than hold his own against said speeds.

So Jiraiya tries to open the fight like so, uses CQC as your argument suggests and opens with a Taijutsu blitz or something, , now the KB has its chakra drained and instantly pops. Kisame then waltzes over to Itachi and they tag team Jiraiya.

Thats EXACTLY how itd go 

A clone impedeing Kisame is a fantasy here

Jiraiyas clones ARE NOT Narutos...They dont have teh chakra to manage sustained battles against Kage level fighters...They dont have the chakra to pull out half of Jiraiya arsenal before popping

NO ONE has clone game that can actively use the Orginals better techniques who isnt Naruto...Thats his entire damn point.

Only other massive Chakra outliers such as Madara or Hashirama have clones capable of doing ridiculous shit like this.

Jiraiya isnt that...




Turrin said:


> if the battle takes at long range Jiriaya should be able to counter kisame suitons with Bunta water gun shot and Gamma Endan


And Jiraiyas clone has the chakra to summon Bunta, which is stated to be extremely taxing to summon a boss level creature, based on what?

And also, after expending that much chakra and NE, even if he has the chakra to do so, why wouldnt he drop out of SM? Or immediately pop for that matter?




Turrin said:


> Jiraiya just saw Itachi use Genjutsu on Sasuke and *will avoid eye contact*


Its NOT that easy

Refer to Might Gai needing to invent his own damn style of combat and train at it for years to be able to reliably do so in a fight. Even seasoned Jonin like Asuma and Kurenai thought the idea of just "avoiding eye contact" in battle was stupid difficult. Jiraiya cant just do it cuz "reasons"

Add to that, Itachi has an absurd record of forcing eye contact on opponents. , ,, 

Why can SM Jiraiya avoid it?

Also finger genjutsu is a thing you havent addressed yet 




Turrin said:


> at the very least Ma/Pa will sense the high level of chakra being channeled into Sharingan


Yeah no

"Lolsensing" isnt indicative of this 

SM Kabuto didnt sense MS buildup AT ALL throughout his fights with Itachi and Sasuke

SM Kabuto who is a sage beyond Jiraiya or Ma/Pa


Turrin said:


> It’s fact that Jiriaya showed during the pain fight he can fight blind when he threw a smokescreen down




Besides...Jiraya fighting in a haze isnt indicative that he can fight drawn out battles 100% blinded...Unless you think Kakashi has top tier sensory ability for fighting ZAbuza in the mist in part 1?


Turrin said:


> It’s also a fact that ma/pa can sense


...

And then relay information to Jiraiya and act as his eyes?

Yeah this would go REAL well 

"Alright Jiraiya chan...Take 2 steps to your left...Nope, make that 3 steps...Ah shit look out here comes...Ah dammit would you look at that weve been hit by a Katon/Amaterasu/Susanoo fist...My bad"

Wow 

Youre acting like they have fucking shared vision levels of coordination or something


Turrin said:


> Same thing with Amaterasu even discounting Jiraiya being able to sense; Ma/Pa can sense the build up


No

Cuz Kabuto couldnt


Turrin said:


> but Jiriaya does have the means to circumvent it with Sound based Ninjutsu/Genjutsu. Frog Call can disrupt Itachi with its sheer auditory sound, the same ways Haguki did


...


Turrin said:


> Jiriaya may be able to break through Susanoo with a Senpo Oddoma Rasengan


...


Turrin said:


> in fairness to Itachi Frog Call may not be as strong as Haguki and may not disrupt him to that extent and we did see Madara Susanoo block an Oddoma Rasengan (though it wasn’t Senpo). So the scenario is questionable


Well at least youre being honest about this argument and all of its flaws

Dont really need to do much here


Turrin said:


> Also while I don’t believe Yomi Nima can defeat Susanoo, it should slow it down


Cool


Turrin said:


> same thing with FCD( it slowed down Kyuubi


FCD lands on a Totsuka blade...Kyuubi doesnt have a OHKO tool on its head thats gonna be the first thing FCD would hit.


Turrin said:


> We do know SM-Kabuto was evading Susanoo speed without issue


Susanoos that were actively avoiding hitting him directly out of fear of killing him because they werent allowed to kill him



Turrin said:


> it would be very easy to scale Jiraiya close too this


NOPE

HARD NOPE

You cant just fucking scale Jiraiya to other sages because "lolsage"

Kabuto had a uniquely engineered anatomy designed to AMP his sensory abilities, and was a perfect Sage of a DIFFERENT BRANCH OF SENJUTSU than Jiraiya or the Toad sages use...They DO NOT scale to him.

Kabuto is also portrayed WILDLY more powerful than any of them so theres that.


Turrin said:


> If it doesn’t we still he faster then Orochimaru, so what else can we go off of.


So...because SM Jiraiya arbitrarily faster than oro...Hes negging Susanoo speeds?

Wut?

How about the fact that SM perception and 3T Sharingan precog are on a similar level as demonstrated by Sasuke/Narutos respective feats against Raikages?

And the fact that even MS kakashi had great difficulty reacting to Susanoo strikes?

Even assuming that MS kakashi reactions are inferior to 3T Sasukes due to him only having 1 eye and not being the original owner, that still makes quite a gap for Jiraiya to overcome because WE KNOW hes inferior to even Pain arc SM Naruto...Let alone WA SM...



Turrin said:


> We do know that Gokage were reacting to and evading hits from the Susanoo clone from Madara


Clones that were toying with them as stated multiple times


Turrin said:


> However Itachi has another attack that often gets underrated; Magatama. Magatama would actually be a major problem for Jiraiya If he tries to use Frog Song as the Song would give away his location And unlike Pain who didn’t have a strong long range attack Magatama is exactly that


Sure


Turrin said:


> And Honestly this is why I believe Jiraiya would eventually loose to Susanoo. In close hell eventually expose an opening and get hit by the Totsuka blade and at Long he’ll eventually get hit by Magatama; creating an opening for Itachi to close the distance and hit him with the Totsuka blade. By fears Jiraiya eventually looses to Susanoo.


Sure


Turrin said:


> So if this is Healthy Itachi likely Jiraiya looses eventually to Susanoo. How long he lasts is debatable and depends how he fights but he’ll loose before Itachi runs out of chakra


Sure


Turrin said:


> If this is Sick Itachi though he died after only using Susanoo for a little bit


Massively unfair to state it this way

Itachi used Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu at least twice, quelled his Amaterasu flames which is also taxing as shown by Sasuke, used several Katons, clone feints along with a prolonged Genjutsu battle and sustained injuries such as burns and impalement before he pulled out Susanoo...And even then he lasted for an extended period of time AFTER being damaged by Kirin...


Turrin said:


> What about Kisame though. Well the thing is even if Kisame rejoins the battle in time; Jiraiya would likely just use another clone to stall Kisame out


Which is negged just as easily as the first clone

He could also simply backstab Jiraiya after finishing off the first clone


Turrin said:


> due to SM regenerative properties and Jiriaya own high chakra volumes


SM doesnt regenerate someone...It allows their stamina to recover at a faster rate and them to heal faster

The only Sage with "regenerative" capabilities was Naruto...Due to Kuramas influence...

And besides, this shit is negged if Jiraiya is tagged with Samehada

His reserves are complete and utter dirt to a V1 or a V2 cloak from Gyuki. And Samehada negged the vast majority of that instantly.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I only choose the scenario because I was requested to do P1 Itachi vs Jiraiya and this is the only time they could have fought then (also the novelty of it)





Turrin said:


> If SM-Jiriaya still looses to Itachi it doesn’t matter to the overall conclusion of who wins, if Jiraiya starts in SM or not. It only matters if Itachi would loose to SM-Jiraiya. So why bother?


I'm not faulting you for choosing these settings merely pointing out they're (objectively) more indicative of Jiraiya+ vs Itachi-. One side's downside (SM prep) is ignored and the other side starts with less chakra than normal.

3) The victim of Tsukiyomi doesn't always faint right away. Hashirama could still be awake and just heal which given his portrayal (at least with respect to Itachi) is what I'd probably lean toward. I'm not sure Minato avoids Tsukiyomi, maybe he can with speed and knowledge. If he gets hit he's not going on to win that battle though at least imo. 



Turrin said:


> It’s like Luffy loosing to DF hax from characters way weaker then him in One Piece all the time cause he doesn’t have knowledge and underestimates them. So it’s kind of a meaningless metic to discuss, and instead the conversation should be focused on how the battle would go if Itachi enemy doesn’t underestimate him.


But this idea of "opponent not underestimating Itachi" quickly evolves into "fighting blind for the first time ever, on the fly with no prior training, and repeatedly dodging some of the most hyped inevadeable attacks in the series, with no prior knowledge that they are coming beforehand". Which is just unreasonable.

And the element of surprise IS an integral part of combat... it just isn't on Jiraiya's side the first time he and Itachi meet. It's usually on the Uchiha's side.

4)Kabuto is trained to fight blind, and reacts to his own feelings. Jiraiya isn't trained to fight that way,  and would be reacting to  "Jiraiya boy, the enemy's spiking their chakra high, I think an attack is - Jiraiya what happened why'd you fall down?".   
Ally telling you something =/= you feeling and reacting yourself.

Were not gonna agree probably. And I don't know if Madara used Amaterasu on Hashirama but bottom-line none of those characters are comparable to these characters or scaleable. Jiraiya is sannin, Itachi has oneshot that level. Even against KCM Naruto/ Killer Bee, Naruto considered Itachi's attacks death-on-impact and warned Killer Bee promptly. It takes way to many assumptions for me to believe Jiraiya stumbles his way into victory against Itachi with no knowledge fighting under self inflicted disadvantaged circumstance(blind) for the very first time.

In fact for Jiraiya to pull that I'd have to believe he's way stronger than Itachi to begin with really.

Now Jiraiya with Kakashi telling him about Tsukiyomi beforehand, preparing summon-able Fire-sealing scrolls ready-to-use after his earlier encounter with Amaterasu, and training to fight blind against Itachi ahead of time, would stand a much better chance. If he went with purpose to fight him he'd presumably enter SM before as well. 

But even then under those circumstance Jiraiya wouldn't know about Susano'o, Yata Mirror, Sword of Totsuka. What if he summons Gamaken shield/sword to clash with Susano'o,(same way he summoned vs Pain's summon, and summoned Gamabunta vs Manda, two times IC) and Gamaken's sword gets deflected out of his hand the moment it strikes the mirror? I'm not even sure his shield would not be pierced by Totsuka given its hype vs a conventional sword either. 

So really Jiraiya needs full knowledge and an unorthodox strategy of falling back / using Frog Song to successfully beat even sick Itachi. As Jiraiya is as risk of dying at anytime while the two are within 30m of each other imo.

Tbh characters don't dodge nor react with handseal ninjutsu to things like Susano'o Arrow / Amaterasu even when they they KNOW its coming beforehand and prepare for it. So its a leap of faith for Jiraiya to dodge them sightless with no knowledge beforehand for me like some scrub technique.

Reactions: Like 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 22, 2019)

Lawrence777 said:


> this idea of "opponent not underestimating Itachi" quickly evolves into "fighting blind for the first time ever, on the fly with no prior training, and repeatedly dodging some of the most hyped inevadeable attacks in the series, with no prior knowledge that they are coming beforehand". Which is just unreasonable.


So much this 


Lawrence777 said:


> Kabuto is trained to fight blind, and reacts to his own feelings. Jiraiya isn't trained to fight that way, and would be reacting to "Jiraiya boy, the enemy's spiking their chakra high, I think an attack is - Jiraiya what happened why'd you fall down?".
> Ally telling you something =/= you feeling and reacting yourself.


So much this 


Lawrence777 said:


> Jiraiya is sannin, Itachi has oneshot that level. Even against KCM Naruto/ Killer Bee, Naruto considered Itachi's attacks death-on-impact and warned Killer Bee promptly. It takes way to many assumptions for me to believe Jiraiya stumbles his way into victory against Itachi with no knowledge fighting under self inflicted disadvantaged circumstance(blind) for the very first time.


So much this 


Lawrence777 said:


> Now Jiraiya with Kakashi telling him about Tsukiyomi beforehand, preparing summon-able Fire-sealing scrolls ready-to-use after his earlier encounter with Amaterasu, and training to fight blind against Itachi ahead of time, would stand a much better chance. If he went with purpose to fight him he'd presumably enter SM before as well.
> 
> But even then under those circumstance Jiraiya wouldn't know about Susano'o, Yata Mirror, Sword of Totsuka. What if he summons Gamaken shield/sword to clash with Susano'o,(same way he summoned vs Pain's summon, and summoned Gamabunta vs Manda, two times IC) and Gamaken's sword gets deflected out of his hand the moment it strikes the mirror? I'm not even sure his shield would not be pierced by Totsuka given its hype vs a conventional sword either.
> 
> ...


So much this 

Who are you and where have you been all my NF life :blu


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## Turrin (Jan 22, 2019)

@Lawrence777 

1.  Jiraiya+ and Itachi- +Kisame 

2. Kakashi says Itachi could have killed him and he simply went easy on him; and the same almost certainly applies to Sasuke. So I don’t see why Hashirama wouldn’t feint. Also don’t see how Minato would have knowledge of Tsukuyomi when Itachi was 4 when he died. 

3. It wasn’t the first time; it was a tactic Jiriaya employed against Pain. His student with Sage Mode also went on to employ this against Pain. And then we saw another Sage employ it against Itachi himself.  It’s really not thst big of a leap; in fact it seems like this is a goto tactic among Sages. 

4. Nagato with lesser chakra sensing was able to warm B and Naruto that Itachi was going to use Mangekyo with plenty of time for them to react. So even if we say Jiraiya doesn’t have SM sending himself (ignoring DBIV) Ma/Pa should be able to warn him.

5. I would say that if Ken went up against Susanoo Ken gets sealed easily. But Ken isnt Jiriaya

6. I feel like falling back and using Frog Song was his strategy against another Dojutsu he didn’t have knowledge on completely, so it seems pretty orthodox to me.

7. I think the people your saying get blitzed by Susanoo are slower then SM Jiriaya


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## Ishmael (Jan 22, 2019)

Thread is interesting and nice, I see good arguments from both sides, plus it seems pretty friendly.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 22, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Yeah nagato was. He also had no intentions to truly combat either of the shinobi and didn't resist at all to it. You read the scans and it's clear that he didn't even care to move or go against it, his personality was in control.  He was more concerned on figuring out and realizing what itachi did to release himself from edo tensei control.



I don't get your point here.... Nagato is on autopilot he was shown to react to attacks against his will, he doesn't have a choice. Why would Kabuto let him get tagged by amaterasu??? Itachi or bee could have sealed Nagato right after that. He couldn't react to amaterasu despite sensing it. He got hit by it and fell to the ground. After that, he refused to remove the flames himself and Kabuto took direct control to put him back in the fight. Why is it surprising that he couldn't react to amaterasu? He couldn't even react to a giant susano'o  hand sliding on the ground (which is pretty noisy) to his right in time to use Preta. Susano'o strikes fast as Obito stated, but still.


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## Ishmael (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> He couldn't react to amaterasu despite sensing it



He wasn't in combat with them as I said and he wasn't trying to contend or evade it. His personality was in control, he had no intentions of fighting itachi and the other two. 

That's what that panel was supposed to show but here chapter 550, panel 7 is what that link is. There is no contention nor a struggle made by him once his personality gained control. Shinra tensei being used was when kabuto took over again after realizing what itachi was trying to do. My point isn't him letting attacks against his will hit with kabuto control him because during that time in the panel kabuto wasn't doing so.


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## Ishmael (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Why is it surprising that he couldn't react to amaterasu?



There wasn't an attempt because there wasn't a reason to. Why go against what you wanted to happen which was defeat the guy who brought you back to life for his own evil purpose....



ThirdRidoku said:


> He couldn't even react to a giant susano'o hand sliding on the ground (which is pretty noisy) to his right in time to use Preta.



Damn what you want him to do? Be superman? He was already dealing with bee and naruto and he was being controlled so it wasn't him but kabuto controlling him and his focus wasn't on itachi.  Come on my guy.


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## Ishmael (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Susano'o strikes fast as Obito stated, but still.



Yep, sure does, it also can be absorbed since it's a chakra based construct, those who can't physically react to an attack from susanoo can mentally react. Kakashi showed us that much and nagato is someone who would be able to do so, I mean preta builds a wall that absorbs incoming attacks only logical for it to win vs susano'o.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 22, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Yep, sure does, it also can be absorbed since it's a chakra based construct, those who can't physically react to an attack from susanoo can mentally react. Kakashi showed us that much and nagato is someone who would be able to do so, I mean preta builds a wall that absorbs incoming attacks only logical for it to win vs susano'o.



Still haven't addressed why Kabuto would allow Nagato to be tagged by Amaterasu.... His personality being in control didn't stop him from deflecting Bee's sword with shinra tensei... 

Bruh, I totally get that his attention was misdirected, but it is also reaching to claim he can't hear a GIANT hand sliding on the ground next to him which was clearly coming from his right and kicking up dust the whole way. If it was any other attack, I would agree with you. His peripheral vision+ ears  should have easily picked that up.


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## Turrin (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Still haven't addressed why Kabuto would allow Nagato to be tagged by Amaterasu.... His personality being in control didn't stop him from deflecting Bee's sword with shinra tensei...


Logically we have to assume that Kabuto issued a command to all the Edos to see the other Edo-Tensei as allies. Otherwise Edo-Tensei that wanted to help the alliance could have attacked other Edo-Tensei. So when Itachi breaks free of Edo-Tensei and attacks Nagato; Nagato is still under the command to see Itachi as an ally and doesn't automatically react defensively. And of course Nagato himself wants to loose to Amaterasu, so he's not going to go out his way to defend against it. That's why Nagato only use Shinra Tensei, after Kabuto reassumes complete control over him.



> Bruh, I totally get that his attention was misdirected, but it is also reaching to claim he can't hear a GIANT hand sliding on the ground next to him which was clearly coming from his right and kicking up dust the whole way. If it was any other attack, I would agree with you. His peripheral vision+ ears  should have easily picked that up.


Kabuto was the one controlling Nagato at this point. Kabuto was completely unaware that Nagato was a sensor; so he did not make use of Nagato's sensory powers. Sensing powers alone would have enabled Nagato to avoid being taken off guard by both of Itachi's Susanoo attacks.

As for the peripheral vision argument; he probably did notice it eventually, but only after it was too close to him to evade. Versus if Nagato wasn't distracted he would have seen the attack coming sooner; or if Kabuto was aware of his sensing and actively had him use it he would have sensed it.


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## Hazuki (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Still haven't addressed why Kabuto would allow Nagato to be tagged by Amaterasu.... His personality being in control didn't stop him from deflecting Bee's sword with shinra tensei...
> 
> Bruh, I totally get that his attention was misdirected, but it is also reaching to claim he can't hear a GIANT hand sliding on the ground next to him which was clearly coming from his right and kicking up dust the whole way. If it was any other attack, I would agree with you. His peripheral vision+ ears  should have easily picked that up.



kabuto was controlling a *immobile* nagato  who was focus only on naruto and bee , and also kabuto himself *forgot about itachi during 99% of the fight *
the only moment kabuto remind and  wanted to take down itachi was at the very last time when nagato use shibaku tensei
and honeslty i don't think that even kabuto could controle nagato from far away *and change his  order to fight his own comrade edo tensei who wasn't supposed to cancel the edo seal with koto*

that might be the reason why kabuto gave order to nagato to use shibaku tensei ( a jutsu that capture every ninja around friend or enemy  )

there is no proof that kabuto could change the seal order into nagato without being close to him ( during kabuto/itachi fight , kabuto need to be close to itachi to change his edo seal ) , that mean there is not proof that kabuto can forced kabuto to fight his own edo itachi , he choose a solution: capturing everyone with shibaku tensei

later , kabuto  explained that nagato lost because he was immobile and that his super vision rinnegan wasn't enough to
fill in his absence of mobility

i have no doubt that a prime nagato mobile with full controle and full  intention to kill , focus on itachi bee and naruto , he  would have beat them without too much problem


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## Ishmael (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Still haven't addressed why Kabuto would allow Nagato to be tagged by Amaterasu



He wasn't controlling  him drop the scan that you're talking about dude,  when he was tagged sitting on his flying summon he was in control. That's why he was speaking to itachi on realizing what he did with shisuis eye.



ThirdRidoku said:


> but it is also reaching to claim he can't hear a GIANT hand sliding on the ground next to him which was clearly coming from his right and kicking up dust the whole way.



Once again was nagato in control no. I don't know what you don't understand I honestly don't. You said yourself nagato is a sensor and has feats that go with the claim so boom there's your proof as well that he wasn't in control. Besides the fact the we have a panel of naruto acknowledging before the encounter we're speaking on happened that nagato wasn't in control.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 22, 2019)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Logically we have to assume that Kabuto issued a command to all the Edos to see the other Edo-Tensei as allies. Otherwise Edo-Tensei that wanted to help the alliance could have attacked other Edo-Tensei. So when Itachi breaks free of Edo-Tensei and attacks Nagato; Nagato is still under the command to see Itachi as an ally and doesn't automatically react defensively. And of course Nagato himself wants to loose to Amaterasu, so he's not going to go out his way to defend against it. That's why Nagato only use Shinra Tensei, after Kabuto reassumes complete control over him.


Okay I can agree with this explanation.


			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Kabuto was the one controlling Nagato at this point. Kabuto was completely unaware that Nagato was a sensor; so he did not make use of Nagato's sensory powers. Sensing powers alone would have enabled Nagato to avoid being taken off guard by both of Itachi's Susanoo attacks.


I am aware Kabuto didn't know , but I disagree here. Sensing is not a get out of jail free card to avoiding being blindsided. First of all, it's not a passive skill, as we have seen many times. It has to be turned on and activated. Minato had to turn on " sensory mode" to sense that his son was dying during the war arc. Karin can turn it and off.  Second of all, with skill and speed you can make it irrelevant. Itachi clone feinted SM Kabuto twice despite the latter's heightened sensory abilities...
Nagato himself has gotten blindsided multiple times... Failed to notice Kakashi making a raiton clone and hiding underground. Failed to notice naruto with two fat rasengans attacking him from above... etc...  Failed to notice naruto making MANY shadow clones and transforming them into rubble. the list goes on I'm sure.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> As for the peripheral vision argument; he probably did notice it eventually, but only after it was too close to him to evade. Versus if Nagato wasn't distracted he would have seen the attack coming sooner; or if Kabuto was aware of his sensing and actively had him use it he would have sensed it.



But he also has two ears... and the point I'm making is that Susano'o strikes fast as Obito stated. Nagato only needs a mental reaction to use Preta and he still couldn't react to a large object coming his way. It means he got blitzed. He also got speed blitzed by Totsuka despite looking right at it. He has reacted to rasenshurikens coming out of smokescreens more than once just fine and has two eyes just like everyone else....



			
				Hazuki said:
			
		

> kabuto was controlling a *immobile* nagato who was focus only on naruto and bee , and also kabuto himself *forgot about itachi during 99% of the fight *



Not at all. Itachi broke one of the best in battle surveillance tactics in the manga with ease.  He perfectly curved multiple kunai directly into the eyes of both of Nagato's summons, and they were unable to see multiple shuriken despite looking right at them. Blinded without Nagato knowing. Kabuto specifically prepared that shared vision for Itachi, he didn't forget about him in the slightest, and calculated that his shuriken techniques were unavoidable in the Viz:


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 22, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> *Except we are shown Kabuto and Itachi looking at each other. Not really any different that Jiraiya/Itachi with the exception that you prefer one over the other.*





There's a relatively stark contrast between this :

*Link Removed*

And this :

*Link Removed*

You _might _have a samey comparison if Kabuto and Itachi's heads were side-by-side on panel. But the panel in between the two - Kabuto slouched with his hood down... in contrast with Itachi faced forward and upright - means that his hood could technically be blotting out the Uhciha's eyes. Which works fine considering the distance. The same level of denial *cannot* be afforded to Jiraiya above where the panels mirror each other showing blatant eye contact is established. Then we get into all the other context that refutes your idiotic juxtaposition that these instances are the same. Kabuto was clearly avoiding eye contact during the entire conversation :








So why would he randomly give Itachi eye contact on one occasion when he's trying to avoid it in all others? He knows it could foil his plan and end him. Jiraiya on the other hand, never told Naruto to avoid Itachi's eyes during the "attempted capture" which leads me to believe he didn't know any better. This could be overlooked, yet Jiriaya, despite believing Itachi would still peruse the boy, knowing his genjutsu immobilised Kakashi, never told him during the time skip either. Obviously Jiraiya doesn't have much experience with ocular Genjutsu, whereas Kabuto seems to fully understand the techniques of every Edo he summoned.



ShinAkuma said:


> *If wearing a cloak and bad posture was enough to protect him, he would not have needed to take further measures. Obviously he felt his previous position was vulnerable so he took even more precautions such as sealing off his sight*








Maybe...

Just Maybe.......

He surmised that combat is a little different compared to chit chat. That slouching down with his hood up fighting the brothers would be harder than sealing off his sight and relying on his extra-ordinary senses. If the point you were trying to make is that Itachi's genjutsu is really very exceptionally hard to avoid, I agree.

And concession accepted.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 22, 2019)

Anyway @ShinAkuma, seen this topic is _somewhat_ tangental to the general discussion vibe here. Wouldn't want to littler it with your hilarious conjecture any longer. 

How about I just make a thread with the respective manga pages inside titled : "Was Kabuto staring into Itachi's eyes here?" So everyone else can chime in. Namedropping you of course, wouldn't want to discredit your enlightened perspective for contesting something obvious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 22, 2019)

Ziggy Bad Posture Stardust said:


> There's a relatively stark contrast between this :
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> ...



I guess they got a panel of them in the middle makes it completely different.

Did I guess right?



> You _might _have a samey comparison if Kabuto and Itachi's heads were side-by-side on panel.



What a shocker, I was right.

Gotta love them intellectually dishonest arguments. WOOOOOOOO



> But the panel in between the two - Kabuto slouched with his hood down...



LOL for fuck sakes even in the wicked low res low detail middle shot you can clearly see Kabuto's glasses. They aren't even fucking obscured.

He is slouched so much with "his hood so far down" that you can COMPLETELY SEE HIS GLASSES.

Sherlock Stardust cracks another case! 

You're fucking magical.



> in contrast with Itachi faced forward and upright - means that his hood could technically be blotting out the Uhciha's eyes.



Kishi has no reason to show Kabuto's eyes (in both panels no less LMAO) if his intention is for the eyes to not be visible, as he showed later on.



> Which works fine considering the distance. The same level of denial *cannot* be afforded to Jiraiya above where the panels mirror each other showing blatant eye contact is established.



Well at least you admit you are in denial. I give you props for that.



> Then we get into all the other context that refutes your idiotic juxtaposition that these instances are the same. Kabuto was clearly avoiding eye contact during the entire conversation :



If Kishi is showing Kabuto avoiding eye contact why would he show his eyes at the beginning?

This is the point. Kishi had no problem showing Kabuto hiding so why not show it from the outset unless he wanted to show them staring at each other?



> So why would he randomly give Itachi eye contact on one occasion when he's trying to avoid it in all others?



Why would he show Kabuto hiding his eyes except in this instance?

I would say thematic purpose, but we both know that only counts when you like it, so I guess that's out.



> He knows it could foil his plan and end him. Jiraiya on the other hand, never told Naruto to avoid Itachi's eyes during the "attempted capture" which leads me to believe he didn't know any better. This could be overlooked, yet Jiriaya, despite believing Itachi would still peruse the boy, knowing his genjutsu immobilised Kakashi, never told him during the time skip either. Obviously Jiraiya doesn't have much experience with ocular Genjutsu, whereas Kabuto seems to fully understand the techniques of every Edo he summoned.



Again, I don't care about your reasoning, what you think Jiraiya knows or doesn't know or what you believe about the themes, simply the double standard employed.



> Maybe...
> 
> Just Maybe.......
> 
> He surmised that combat is a little different compared to chit chat. That slouching down with his hood up fighting the brothers would be harder than sealing off his sight and relying on his extra-ordinary senses. If the point you were trying to make is that Itachi's genjutsu is really very exceptionally hard to avoid, I agree.



Is this a thematic argument?

Can one also be made for Jiraiya?

Maybe, just maybe, Kishi shows these instances of characters staring at each other to set the mood and it doesn't actually mean anything in regards to combat.



> And concession accepted.



Callbacks WOOOOOOOOOO



Ziggy Tangental Stardust said:


> Anyway @ShinAkuma, seen this topic is _somewhat_ tangental to the general discussion vibe here. Wouldn't want to littler it with your hilarious conjecture any longer.
> 
> How about I just make a thread with the respective manga pages inside titled : "Was Kabuto staring into Itachi's eyes here?" So everyone else can chime in. Namedropping you of course, wouldn't want to discredit your enlightened perspective for contesting something obvious.



Sure, why not?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 22, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato is on autopilot he was shown to react to attacks against his will, he doesn't have a choice. Why would Kabuto let him get tagged by amaterasu???


Cuz Kabuto was literally having a panic attack at the notion that Itachi broke out of his control with Kotoamatsukami

He straight up stops controlling Nagato as we see him stop weaving teh seals to do so, allowing Nagato to just sit there and take the hit and purposfully not react

Literally the only explanation as we saw him react to it earlier


ThirdRidoku said:


> He couldn't react to amaterasu despite sensing it


He reacted earlier in time to form a verbal warning...He can easily react to Amaterasu with Preta path or Deva path had he wanted to


ThirdRidoku said:


> He got hit by it and fell to the ground


Cuz he wanted to


ThirdRidoku said:


> After that, *he refused* to remove the flames himself


See?


ThirdRidoku said:


> Why is it surprising that he couldn't react to amaterasu?


Cuz he did earlier 

Verbally 


ThirdRidoku said:


> He couldn't even react to a giant susano'o hand sliding on the ground


A susanoo hand that he couldnt sense.

Cuz Kabuto had taken over his body again bu that point and Kabuto wasnt making teh best use fo Nagatos skills or abilities and literally didnt bother with sensing at all. And we know that because we saw Nagato sense MS buildup earlier on panel, hed obviously detect Susanoo coming with that in mind.

Theres also a precedence for Kabuto not knowing how to best use his Edos tool kits...Like when he didnt know that Mu couldnt use Jinton after using his fission clone but tried it anyway.

Not a stretch to assume he doesnt know all the ins and outs of the Rinnegan user either 


ThirdRidoku said:


> it is also reaching to claim he can't hear a GIANT hand sliding on the ground next to him


Not while he was so distracted it isnt

Susanoo are also hella fast


ThirdRidoku said:


> Sensing is not a get out of jail free card to avoiding being blindsided.


Thats also true tho

I grant you that

Thing is tho, Nagato wasnt using sensory abilities when controlled by kabuto


ThirdRidoku said:


> First of all, it's not a passive skill, as we have seen many times


Weve also seen that it can be passive

Like in Nagatos case, or Mus, or KCM Narutos, or Sages a great deal of the time


ThirdRidoku said:


> Minato had to turn on " sensory mode"


The above names didnt


ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato himself has gotten blindsided multiple times... Failed to notice Kakashi making a raiton clone and hiding underground.


That was Pain

Not Nagato proper


ThirdRidoku said:


> Failed to notice naruto with two fat rasengans attacking him from above


Also Pain


ThirdRidoku said:


> Failed to notice naruto making MANY shadow clones and transforming them into rubble


Also Pain

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 22, 2019)

Hazuki said:


> kabuto was controlling a *immobile* nagato  who was focus only on naruto and bee , and also kabuto himself *forgot about itachi during 99% of the fight *
> the only moment kabuto remind and  wanted to take down itachi was at the very last time when nagato use shibaku tensei
> and honeslty i don't think that even kabuto could controle nagato from far away *and change his  order to fight his own comrade edo tensei who wasn't supposed to cancel the edo seal with koto*
> 
> ...




Zabuza had no problem slashing through Haku. There's no such orders about edo tensei not "harming" each other. They're all on auto-pilot. 

Nagato not reacting to Amateratsu wasn't because of edo tensei.


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## Hazuki (Jan 22, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Zabuza had no problem slashing through Haku. There's no such orders about edo tensei not "harming" each other. They're all on auto-pilot.
> 
> Nagato not reacting to Amateratsu wasn't because of edo tensei.



*It wasn't auto pilot* at that specific moment , kabuto was controlling zabuza and forced him to clash haku because it would take kakashi down 
he knew very well that haku always acted as a shield for zabuza and he created a very specific situation like this against kakashi ( he even enjoyed this nostalgic moment )

*an edo tensei isn't supposed to hurt his comrade edo tensei unless kabuto forced them to do that *
in the manga we have never seen an edo tensei hurting an other edo tensei exept if it is on purpose by the user of edo tensei himself ( like forcing  zabuza again haku )

and during nagato/itachi bee naruto fight ,  kabuto never forced nagato to fight itachi , he was just focus on naruto bee ( even if itachi was already free move he didn't care )

 he was controlling nagato the whole fight to capture naruto/bee  , he had no idea that itachi would cancel edo and use amaterasu on nagato 
itachi wasn't an enemy at that specific time when he use amaterasu on nagato , it's only after that kabuto was shocked that he cancel edo tensei thanks to koto 

also don't forget that at that time nagato couldn't even move by himself and wasn't in a good state with his grey hair until absorb bee chakra 
nagato never fought itachi directly exept at the very end of the fight when kabuto realize that he want itachi back and use shibaku tensei to capture everyone


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku

1. Whether Nagato has sensing turned on or not; is a different question. I’m saying if he did he could have sensed it the moment Susanoo appeared

2. Nagato being able to evade FRS at the last second but not Susanoo just means Susanoo is faster then FRS. It doesn’t mean that Nagato couldn’t normally react to Susanoo attacks if he saw / sensed them coming before it was the last second.

We actually saw Nagato sense when Itachi was going to use Amaterasu with enough time to warn B; who then proceeded to have enough time to react and throw a sword at Itachi before Amaterasu was used (which Nagato actually deflects with ST also before Amaterasu goes off). Nagato later casually reacts to Bs speed using the Asura path even when distracted by Naruto. So we know Nagato can use the 6 Path techniques faster then Base-B can move. Meaning Nagato with sensing should be able to use 6 Path tech before Itachi can use Amaterasu. And Amaterasu can be used faster then Itachi calling out Susanoo and attacking with it.

Basically given the above we know that if Nagato had been sensing or seen Susanoos attacks he would have been able to react.


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## Ishmael (Jan 23, 2019)

I know everyone has a different sense and interpretation of things in the manga, but.... manga has been over with for some time now. It's hard to believe peeps still can't grasp or understand the basic shit.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 23, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I guess they got a panel of them in the middle makes it completely different.



Correct.

When the middle panel gives us additional context, it does make the comparison completely different. The fact their eyes aren't level in comparison, also implies eye-contact isn't being made. With Jiraiya and Itachi, however, this isn't the case. Their eyes are level and the panels mirror each other. In other words, there is no way Jiraiya isn't staring at Itachi's eyes in that panel. For Kabuto however, you haven't proved why eye contact is even technically being made, and much less from a thematic standpoint.



ShinAkuma said:


> Gotta love them intellectually dishonest arguments. WOOOOOOOO



You clearly seem to like them too much.



ShinAkuma said:


> LOL for fuck sakes even in the wicked low res low detail middle shot you can clearly see Kabuto's glasses. They aren't even fucking obscured.



The premise is whether or not Kabuto can see _Itachi's eyes_. Not whether or not the bottom of Kabuto's glasses frames are visible from the 3rd person perspective the manga is drawn from.

*Link Removed*

Of course, the the panel is drawn from an angle that is lower and further back from where Itachi's head is. Giving us a better view of Kabuto, whereas Itachi is obviously looking at a figure who's eyes are still covered by his hood.



ShinAkuma said:


> Again, I don't care about your reasoning, what you think Jiraiya knows or doesn't know or what you believe about the themes, simply the double standard employed.



The double standard you're decrying isn't one

- The panel you presented shows Kabuto still avoiding eye contact.
- We have conformation this was his intention all along
- The Panel I presented shows Jiraiya staring at Itachi square in the face
- We have stark implications he never intended to or even knows he should avoid eye contact with Itachi

All you've done is debunk you own point.



ShinAkuma said:


> Maybe, just maybe, Kishi shows these instances of characters staring at each other to set the mood and it doesn't actually mean anything in regards to combat.



Well Kabuto isn't staring at Itachi. Jiraiya on the other hand is.

And back to the original point you evaded. The reason Kabuto would take extra precautions in combat to avoid genjutsu is because it's much harder to do so while merely conversing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 23, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Correct.



Ok, I've let you dick around long enough with this double standard nonsense.

Let's take a look at the evidence.



> When the middle panel gives us additional context, it does make the comparison completely different.



No, it doesn't.




This is pretty much the same type of scenario as the Uchiha brothers/Kabuto framing. Jiraiya who is taller than them is looking up as well, so obviously he cannot be staring into Itachi's eyes going by your reasoning that they aren't EXACTLY PERFECTLY LINED UP.



> The fact their eyes aren't level in comparison, also implies eye-contact isn't being made.



L O Fucking L

Are you even for real?



Jiraiya/Itachi was also not perfectly lined up so impossible to stare into each other eyes hehe...

Look Zigmund, can I call you Zigmund? I feel like we are on a first name basis after putting up with your relentless bullshit.

Look Zigmund, eyesight doesn't work like that. You don't have to be at a perfect angle to look at another person's eyes.

You got two options, you can either accept the real world implications or you can go by your made up manga rules of perfect angles. As I have shown Jiraiya/Itachi is also not a perfect angle, so I don't give a shit which standard of evidence you prefer since your double standard is exposed no matter which you pick.



> With Jiraiya and Itachi, however, this isn't the case.



Yeahno Not a perfect angle as shown, sorry homie.



> Their eyes are level and the panels mirror each other.



There eyes appear level without the context provided by the next page, however once we see their positions, your arguments fail.



> You clearly seem to like them too much.



I love exposing them to be certain.

Keep on trucking ZiggyZigZag WOOOOOOOOOO



> The premise is whether or not Kabuto can see _Itachi's eyes_. Not whether or not the bottom of Kabuto's glasses frames are visible from the 3rd person perspective the manga is drawn from.



Eyes are shown completely visible here;






> Of course, the the panel is drawn from an angle that is lower and further back from where Itachi's head is. Giving us a better view of Kabuto, whereas Itachi is obviously looking at a figure who's eyes are still covered by his hood.



Kabuto is *wearing a hood*, his eyes are *not obscured* by it. Stop conflating the existence of a hood as his eyes are hidden.

Hey look, here is what eyes being obscured by a hood actually looks like!





Crazy.....it's like his eyes are *actually obscured*. I mean you can't see anything let alone complete view of his eyes as previous.

"Of course it's not any different" - Ziggy Antilogic 2019



> The double standard you're decrying isn't one



Really?

Come on. Look I get half blind young emo adults gets you hard, but let's cut the bullshit.

This - 

And This - 

Are basically the same fucking thing yet you think they mean completely different things for some magical un explainable reason that can only apply to Itachi.

Yeah no fucking double standards here champ lol



> All you've done is debunk you own point.



Oh yeah, debunked my own point lol

Why the fuck would Kishi make it a point in story and art for Kabuto to hide his eyes from the Uchiha bros if his EYES WERE ALREADY HIDDEN?





Maybe because his eyes WERE NOT PREVIOUSLY HIDDEN

But no I'm sure through the power of shitdust magic you will come up with some logically devoid reason that can only apply to Itachi.

HERE WE GOOOOOOOOOOOOO



> Well Kabuto isn't staring at Itachi. Jiraiya on the other hand is.



Well by your standard of evidence Jiraiya could not be.

Who am I kidding, the only standard of evidence you are concerned with is "Does it favor Itachi"?



> And back to the original point you evaded. The reason Kabuto would take extra precautions in combat to avoid genjutsu is because it's much harder to do so while merely conversing.



Covered above.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2019)

Jiraiya might have been making eye-contact In the hall ways but I don’t think Jiraiya really has much to fear when it comes to 3T illusions as he usually has a summoned toad partner with him (the hall way is no different he already had a Toad summoned and on the battlefield). Additionally this is also discounting whether Gatora (the scroll toad he keeps on his stomach) could provide assistance with breaking him free of illusions as well. In SM he has Ma/Pa to break him out of normal 3T illusions too.

The only illusion that he’d need to avoid eye contact for us Tskuyomi. And whether he does that or not pretty much comes down how you believe Jiriaya would respond to sensing (or having Ma/Pa) sense the incredibly pressure excuded from the Mangekyo Doryoku. If you believe he wouldn’t take extra precautions at that point then he looses to Sharingan Genjutsu; if you do then he doesn’t. It’s that simple.

But ultimately if Jiriaya still underestimates Itachi Dojutsu power and looses that really doesn’t say anything about the respective power of both characters, just that Itachi happened to have an ability Jiriaya didn’t know about and Jiriaya happened to underestimate the ability. Cause we know for a fact that Jiriaya does have a counter in the fact that he can competently fight while blocking LoS.

Same exact thing as Itachi fighting Sakura; and choosing to underestimate her strength and try to physically block her punch only to have her fist go straight through his body. Loosing not because he didn’t have a counter but because he underestimated her


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 24, 2019)

Itachi soloes

Reactions: Like 3


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 24, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi soloes



Classic!


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## Ishmael (Jan 24, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi soloes



Oh my god.... yooooo how you been?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 24, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Classic!


Feels good to post my favorite one liner after so many years


The last time I posted was like 2.5 years ago and can't believe Jiraiya vs Itachi is still going on. Some folks are still fighting the good fight I suppose.

edit : 



Ishmael said:


> Oh my god.... yooooo how you been?



Hey, I'm good. How have you been ?


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## Ishmael (Jan 24, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hey, I'm good. How have you been ?



Great man, what brings you back?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 24, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Great man, what brings you back?


Nothing in particular. I just wondered how NF has been and decided to visit. Not much has changed I can tell. At least in BD.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 25, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz Kabuto was literally having a panic attack at the notion that Itachi broke out of his control with Kotoamatsukami
> 
> He straight up stops controlling Nagato as we see him stop weaving teh seals to do so, allowing Nagato to just sit there and take the hit and purposfully not react
> 
> ...



I conceded the Amaterasu point, but thanks for the further clarification. I agree with almost all your other points... But to me it doesn't make any sense that Nagato can't chakra sense while using Pain. He can clearly use techniques like chakra sensing rain and substitution jutsu, so why not chakra sensing? He logically should be able to given that he is transmiting chakra over a long range to control the bodies in the first place, but w/e. The point is, even SM naruto who supposedly has passive  sensing did not notice Hell Realm reviving Preta Path until it moved to intercept a rasenshuriken.  Emotion sensing is confirmed to a passive skill though.

My point about Nagato is that regardless of chakra sensing, it is only one of his six senses... He still has peripheral vision and hearing. I am aware that if he saw the technique coming before hand, he would have had more time for reaction, but that can be said about almost anything. Fights often involve characters diverting their opponent's attention to begin with to catch them off balance and increase the chance of catching them with an attack. The Susano'o hand was *sliding on the ground* several feet to his right, kicking up dust in it's wake and also logically making noise.

Just for reference, I'm not citing the anime as absolute , because it isn't canon and is prone to discrepancies with the manga, but they also shared my interpretation, as we see Nagato turn his head to look at Susano'o hand, which logically is what would happen when you see a large and loud object coming your way from several feet away....

My point in bringing this up is as you said, Susano'o strikes fast in general between all users.  Jiraiya is no different. Susano'o in general is a problem.


@Turrin, I don't disagree with most of what you said, but the fact remains is that Nagato was standing several feet away from that smokescreen and still couldn't react to Totsuka, at all. It was too fast for the optic nerve, as evident by the giant exclamation points on his head along with the movement lines, plus the fact his eyes are very clearly looking up at the gourd. If the smokescreen wasn't there and or he had sensing turned on, sure at that distance it may have improved his chances of reacting, but then Itachi would just employ another smokescreen or distraction... Either way it still counts as a speed feat. Speed feats are always situational depending on distance anyway. The farther away you are the easier it is usually to avoid an attack, even if it's incredibly fast. Amaterasu's charge up is something Nagato can react to and Killer Bee can react to it seems, but Amaterasu's charge up isn't what was ever stated to be fast anyway, it's the attack  itself after it's actually launched, because it conjures at the focal point of the user's vision. Even V2 Ayy nearly got tagged by the conjuring flames.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 25, 2019)

Amateratsu "charge time" is highly dependent on the situation. I can easily show you several scans of Amateratsu being used almost instantly but most of the time people always use the slowest ones. That's one way to downplay it and say every sensor AND non sensors in existence can counter it.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 25, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Amateratsu "charge time" is highly dependent on the situation. I can easily show you several scans of Amateratsu being used almost instantly but most of the time people always use the slowest ones. That's one way to downplay it and say every sensor AND non sensors in existence can counter it.



May you elaborate? The first thing that comes to mind Is Sasuke intercepting a charging SM Kabuto with amaterasu, and Itachi and Sasuke using it to intercept Kidimaro's webs. I also find that the only time Amaterasu's activation seemed to be slow was in a context in which Itachi was being influenced by the Koto crow.


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku 

It’s fine if you say it was a speed feat but it’s a speed feat from the position of Nagato being distracted and only seeing the Totsuka sword appear out of the smoke at the last second. In a normal situation Nagato likely reacts to Totsuka just fine


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 25, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, I've let you dick around long enough with this double standard nonsense.



Yeah, what you call _double standard_ is really just _forced comparison_ on your part. You're pretending that Itachi's conversations with Jiriaya and Kabuto are the same, *they're not*. And your entire crusade is a hilarious series of debunking your own points with the evidence you bring forth. Probably because you're too stupid to string together a consistent premise with panels of manga. Or you know you're wrong and are too stubborn to concede. This is pretty evident given the arguments and - lack of -  evidence Shinakuma has presented. Which now looks something like this :

- Kabuto was making eye contact with Itachi during their conversation despite the lone panel you posted *Link Removed*
- Kabuto was just looking away for no reason the rest of the time here  here  and here 
- Kabuto has nothing to worry about in non-combative "stare down" against Itachi, even though *Link Removed*
- The Fact that Kabuto would take extra precautions to cover his eyes while fighting, means he must have been looking at Itachi's eyes while talking
- Jiriaya on the other hand, wasn't looking at Itachi's eyes
- You avoid the panel I posted where *Link Removed*, and replace it with  (that still shows eye contact made lol)
- According to you ; It doesn't matter that Jiriaya never warned Naruto at the time not to glance at Itachi
- It doesn't matter that Jiriaya never warned Naruto during the timeskip where he was training him to break out of genjutsu (kai)
- It doesn't matter that Jiriaya believed Itachi would still pursue Naruto and his genjutsu could leave Kakashi in a coma
- It doesn't matter that circumventing ocular genjutsu *isn't* articulated anywhere in Jiriaya's case, like it was for Kabuto
- And finally, It doesn't matter that Jiriaya didn't shroud his head or blindfold himself, which you deemed completely necessary for Kabuto​





ShinAkuma said:


> You got two options, you can either accept the real world implications or you can go by your made up manga rules of perfect angles. As I have shown Jiraiya/Itachi is also not a perfect angle, so I don't give a shit which standard of evidence you prefer since your double standard is exposed no matter which you pick.



Well my argument - unlike yours - works on both with either option : The artwork compliments it and the context compliments it. Both on the other hand shit on your false equivalence. So you're right in claiming I have two options, while you have _none._

It doesn't take a genius to realise that this is staring match :

*Link Removed*

While this is someone avoiding eye contact :

*Link Removed*

Ever if we abandon the "perfect angle" preface, we still have the surrounding context that clearly tells us Kabuto was avoiding eye contact. Why would he be looking at Itachi's eyes when talking if he knows it's a bad idea? Especially when ". On the other hand, Jiriaya has no excuse for not warning Naruto during the Timeskip. So I win either way. For your next trick you might try convincing people that a Pitbull and a Chihuahua are the same thing.


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## Shazam (Jan 25, 2019)

Edo MS Itachi > SM Jiraiya = Living MS Itachi. > Base Jiraiya > 3T Itachi 

Probably will never change my opinion on that


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## Ishmael (Jan 25, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Edo MS Itachi > SM Jiraiya = Living MS Itachi. > Base Jiraiya > 3T Itachi
> 
> Probably will never change my opinion on that



Pretty much what my standings are but I have Ms itachi over SM Jiraiya simply because in a neural setting. Itachi getting to his stronger techs is done by a simple change of eyes, jiraiya requires prep. I don't see him getting to SM in a lot of ways against itachi but it could be done. They are equals though.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 25, 2019)

Ziggy I will Literally Say Anything Stardust said:


> Yeah, what you call _double standard_ is really just _forced comparison_ on your part.



What the fuck are you babbling about?

It's just a comparison. Might seem "forced" to you because it exposed your double standard.

("forced comparison" is not an official logical fallacy, so I'm not sure what you're referring to)



> You're pretending that Itachi's conversations with Jiriaya and Kabuto are the same, *they're not*.



I'm pretending no such thing. They are clearing having completely different conversations.

How they are interacting is similar.



> And your entire crusade is a hilarious series of debunking your own points with the evidence you bring forth.



It's cute that you keep bullshitting like this, but ultimately meaningless.



> Probably because you're too stupid to string together a consistent premise with panels of manga.



The premise is a panel showing two characters looking at each other means they *are looking at each other*.

INSANITY



> Or you know you're wrong and are too stubborn to concede.



Nah, just tired of letting dipshits like you run around and acting like you have a point when you obviously don't.



> This is pretty evident given the arguments and - lack of -  evidence Shinakuma has presented. Which now looks something like this :



Let's review my argument.

This - 

Is the same as this - 

Thus far your counter argument is:

- Kabuto must be looking at Itachi's feet even though his eyes indicate (looking up in case you're too dumb to understand) he is looking at Itachi's face

- Kabuto's eyes are obscured even though they are completely visible

Both are obviously nonsense.

Also.....

This is what Kabuto looking at Itachi's feet would look like.



Come up with something better than pure garbage.



> - Kabuto was making eye contact with Itachi during their conversation despite the lone panel you posted *Link Removed*



Yeah you think Kabuto is *looking up to avoid Itachi's gaze* ROFL

That's fucking nonsense. We already know what it looks like when Kabuto is avoiding Itachi gaze.



Looking down, away from Itachi, eyes obscured. The complete fucking opposite of - 



> - Kabuto was just looking away for no reason the rest of the time here  here  and here



I never said Kabuto was staring at Itachi the *entire time*, so this is irrelevant.



> - Kabuto has nothing to worry about in non-combative "stare down" against Itachi, even though *Link Removed*



You're the one who was worried about themes. Obviously setting the stage is something an author would do. A fight doesn't start until Kishi says it starts.

Again I don't give a shit that you are willing to accept any themes or perspectives. I'm only exposing your double standards.



> - The Fact that Kabuto would take extra precautions to cover his eyes while fighting



You're the one arguing that his eyes were always obscured. If his eyes were always obscured there would be no reason to OBSCURE THEM.



> means he must have been looking at Itachi's eyes while talking



No. Kishi showing us they were looking at each other means that.





> - Jiriaya on the other hand, wasn't looking at Itachi's eyes



Sure.

Doesn't matter to me if he was or wasn't. I'm not arguing on Jiraiya's behalf, just exposing your double standard nonsense.



> - You avoid the panel I posted where *Link Removed*, and replace it with  (that still shows eye contact made lol)



Yes I showed you another panel where there was eye contact because it looks the same as the panel you say *there was no eye contact*





You have no fucking clue what you're saying anymore, do you?

ROFL



> - According to you ; It doesn't matter that Jiriaya never warned Naruto at the time not to glance at Itachi
> - It doesn't matter that Jiriaya never warned Naruto during the timeskip where he was training him to break out of genjutsu (kai)
> - It doesn't matter that Jiriaya believed Itachi would still pursue Naruto and his genjutsu could leave Kakashi in a coma
> - It doesn't matter that circumventing ocular genjutsu *isn't* articulated anywhere in Jiriaya's case, like it was for Kabuto
> - And finally, It doesn't matter that Jiriaya didn't shroud his head or blindfold himself, which you deemed completely necessary for Kabuto



Well for one I said *I don't care about those things*. I'm not arguing on behalf of Jiraiya, so what he did or didn't do isn't relevant to exposing your double standards.



> Well my argument - unlike yours - works on both with either option :



Man you love to say complete nonsense and pass it off as having actual meaning.

Real world - You can stare somebody in the eyes without being level with them. Even if they are shadowed.

Hey look this guys eyes are completely visible - 

Or the manga where most staring matches are not shown with perfect angles.



Jiraiya, taller than Itachi, head tilted down with eyes up. Angle is not perfect. Yet they are staring at each other.  

CRAZY



> It doesn't take a genius to realise that this is staring match :
> 
> *Link Removed*



Sure doesn't.....



> While this is someone avoiding eye contact :
> 
> *Link Removed*



.....but sure takes some dishonestly to say Kabuto is avoiding eye contact here.

Especially when you can admit this panel is a staring contest - 

But this is AVOIDING EYE CONTACT - 

Classic bullshittery.



> Ever if we abandon the "perfect angle" preface, we still have the surrounding context that clearly tells us Kabuto was avoiding eye contact.



Yes Kabuto initiated protocols to protect his eyes when the fight started, as shown.



> Why would he be looking at Itachi's eyes when talking if he knows it's a bad idea?



Probably because they were not fighting yet. You know theme and perspective?

Oh fuck I forgot you only care about that when it favors Itachi.



> On the other hand, Jiriaya has no excuse for not warning Naruto during the Timeskip. So I win either way.



Yup you win a lifetime supply of Jiraiya Haterade!

WOOOOOOOOO

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @ThirdRidoku
> 
> It’s fine if you say it was a speed feat but it’s a speed feat from the position of Nagato being distracted and only seeing the Totsuka sword appear out of the smoke at the last second. In a normal situation Nagato likely reacts to Totsuka just fine



Yes, but as I said that could be said about almost anyone.  He won't be reacting just fine. He was standing well over thirty feet away from the smokescreen though, standard battle distance.... and he was standing even closer to a surprise rasenshuriken coming out of a smokescreen in the past with a slower Pain body which still reacted.  V2 Susano'o from Itachi spawned AFTER Kirin was already launched. Kirin hits the ground in 1/1000th of a second, or 1 millisecond. That means V2 Susano'o forms in less that time. To get up to v4 Susano'o Itachi only needs a little more than 1 millisecond, let's say 2 milliseconds. Furthermore, the blade is also incredibly long so it doesn't need to cover much distance before it lands. Simply spawning it out of the gourd at standard distance and doing a thrust and the blade would be through Nagato before he knows it, and the same goes for Jiraiya.  Susano'o strikes fast. Even if I'm wrong, if all it takes a small distraction for the blade to hit someone at the level of Nagato ( who has some of the best reflexes in the manga) then It is still a win for the Totsuka blade. Itachi easily creates small distractions, genjutsu which he often employs as feints. Water walls like the one he used to shield himself from the spike shaped water that was generated from his exploding clone. Yakasa bead explosions which stunned Kabuto to the point he couldn't react to Sasuke's arrow, the same arrow he casually dodged before.  Grand fireballs which blind people due to the orange light.


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## Turrin (Jan 26, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Yes, but as I said that could be said about almost anyone.  He won't be reacting just fine. He was standing well over thirty feet away from the smokescreen though, standard battle distance.... and he was standing even closer to a surprise rasenshuriken coming out of a smokescreen in the past with a slower Pain body which still reacted.  V2 Susano'o from Itachi spawned AFTER Kirin was already launched. Kirin hits the ground in 1/1000th of a second, or 1 millisecond. That means V2 Susano'o forms in less that time. To get up to v4 Susano'o Itachi only needs a little more than 1 millisecond, let's say 2 milliseconds. Furthermore, the blade is also incredibly long so it doesn't need to cover much distance before it lands. Simply spawning it out of the gourd at standard distance and doing a thrust and the blade would be through Nagato before he knows it, and the same goes for Jiraiya.  Susano'o strikes fast. Even if I'm wrong, if all it takes a small distraction for the blade to hit someone at the level of Nagato ( who has some of the best reflexes in the manga) then It is still a win for the Totsuka blade. Itachi easily creates small distractions, genjutsu which he often employs as feints. Water walls like the one he used to shield himself from the spike shaped water that was generated from his exploding clone. Yakasa bead explosions which stunned Kabuto to the point he couldn't react to Sasuke's arrow, the same arrow he casually dodged before.  Grand fireballs which blind people due to the orange light.


As I said all that proves is that Susanoo is faster then FRS. Not that it’s fast enough to blitz Nagato without a distraction.

I wouldn’t call the destruction of CT and minor distraction and that was also on Nagato who couldn’t sense and had his shared vision destroyed.  Kabuto even remarks that shared vision getting taken out was the reason Nagato lost. Which implies that he was hit by Totsuka cause he didn’t see it coming till too late 

Could Itachi possibly distract Nagato enough to take out shared vision on his own and then blindside sensing. Maybe but that is a much different discussion.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 26, 2019)

Turrin said:


> As I said all that proves is that Susanoo is faster then FRS. Not that it’s fast enough to blitz Nagato without a distraction.
> 
> I wouldn’t call the destruction of CT and minor distraction and that was also on Nagato who couldn’t sense and had his shared vision destroyed.  Kabuto even remarks that shared vision getting taken out was the reason Nagato lost. Which implies that he was hit by Totsuka cause he didn’t see it coming till too late
> 
> Could Itachi possibly distract Nagato enough to take out shared vision on his own and then blindside sensing. Maybe but that is a much different discussion.



The reason I disagree with this is that Black Zetsu stated that lightning was essentially undodgeable for pretty much anyone alive at the time because it hits the ground in 1/1000th of a second. Itachi didn't dodge, he mentally reacted. Kirin is meant to be one of the fastest attacks in naruto, which makes sense since it is  lightning which travels at one third the speed of light.... Rasenshuriken has been claimed by some to be as fast as or comparable to lightning in speed. Haven't done any calcs to confirm it myself.


Regardless, Nagato with slower pain bodies reacted to SURPRISE rasenshurikens multiple times coming out of smokescreens, some at point blank range. We can't use double standards here. Many people who have quoted me either conceded or ignored that Nagato was blindsided multiple times despite his supposedly amazing chakra sensing during his fights in Konoha. If you want to claim that Nagato couldn't chakra sensing when using his 6 paths of pain to excuse those blindsides, fine, but then we have to be consistent. Nagato didn't have sensing due to Kabuto. Nagato also didn't have sensing when controlling Pains (supposedly). So it balances out. Yet, he reacted to rasenshuriken  no diff but couldn't even percieve the speed of Totsuka. To blitz someone so fast their optic nerve can't process it is a HUGE gap in speed in comparison to the same person being able to react to surprise attacks coming out of smokescreen. At the distance he was standing, the smokescreen doesn't matter. He literally couldn't mentally react to a giant object coming out of clearing smoke.  What does shared vision have to do with an attack you are looking directly at??? Lmao, Nagato has two eyes just like everyone else, and was clearly looking at the gourd.  Sensing would only help him detect the formation of V4 Susano'o, so in that case he is reacting to susano'o and not Totsuka itself, which gives him more time to activate a defense.  But after he forms his defense,   he is still screwed because he can't react to the thrust, and neither can Jiraiya.


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## Shazam (Jan 26, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> *lightning which travels at one third the speed of light...*





Speed of Light = 186,000 miles per second

Speed of Lightning = 220,000 miles per hour when traveling downwards from a cloud


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## Sapherosth (Jan 26, 2019)

How would Jiraiya know how to avoid Itachi's eye contact from the get go? I mean, Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai all had no idea how to avoid it and NONE of them even attempted to avoid it until after Kakashi got hit by Tsukuyomi. Why would Jiraiya be any different than these guys? 

What is there to prove that Jiraiya is smarter than Kakashi or more knowledgeable about Sharingan? Even after Kakashi was HIT by Tsukuyomi, he still didn't know how to counter it and had to consult Gai who trained all his life to fight while avoiding eye sight. 

Yet you're claiming that Jiraiya can comfortably do what Kakashi with years of sharingan experience and knowledge could not do within a few seconds and also figure out how to counter it effectively on the spot. Sorry, but Jiraiya is nowhere near smart enough OR skilled enough to do it on the spot. 

You could easily argue for Kabuto since he's much more knowledgeable than Jiraiya is about MS and Itachi's powers. 


*We already figured out 2 things. *

1. Kakashi couldn't figure it out on the spot how to fight Tsukuyomi despite being tiers above Jiraiya in battle smart. 
2. Gai had to train for YEARS to pull off what is required to counter Tsukuyomi.

Jiraiya has NEITHER of these 2 things, yet people still think he counters it easily by copping out "SM sensing" which he's never shown AND they're somehow scaling it to Kabuto's SM which is laughable at best. 

Kabuto bypassed the training by having his SM sensing (whose sensing feats are actually better than every other SM user which could be due to Snake SM in particular because Snakes have very limited vision so they rely on other senses).


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> How would Jiraiya know how to avoid Itachi's eye contact from the get go? I mean, Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai all had no idea how to avoid it and NONE of them even attempted to avoid it until after Kakashi got hit by Tsukuyomi. Why would Jiraiya be any different than these guys?
> 
> What is there to prove that Jiraiya is smarter than Kakashi or more knowledgeable about Sharingan? Even after Kakashi was HIT by Tsukuyomi, he still didn't know how to counter it and had to consult Gai who trained all his life to fight while avoiding eye sight.
> 
> ...


1. Kakashi tells Asuma and Kurunai to not look in Itachi eyes. Kakashi believes he doesn’t have to avoid eye contact because he also has the Sharingan and he is confident in his skill with it. After he is proved wrong getting hit by Tskuyomi he then avoids eye contact in his next fight with Itachi.

Jiraiya doesn’t have Sharingan so he will have anothe defense against Genjutsu then Kakashi. Whether it’s avoid eye contact, rely on summons as partners, or use Kai we don’t know for sure cause we never saw Jiraiya fight an Uchiha extensively. So we’d have to discuss the effectiveness of each method against Itachi. But saying he just does nothing and no has no defense because isn’t smart enough is unfair to a character with 50 years of battle experience fighting alongside the Uchiha clan. He know she of their Dojutsu Genjutsu and he will try something to defend.

2. For Tsukuyomi Jiraiya doesn’t need SM sending himself since he has the elder toads to sense. They will sense the build up of powerful doryoku to Itachi eyes when he goes to use a Mangekyo Technique, just like Nagato did. And they will warn Jiraiya. What Jiriaya does with this information can be discussed, but we do know Jiraiya can fight proficiently with LoS blocked as seen against Pain. So he could opt for a strategy of blocking LOS; or he could opt to use clones; or he could opt to avoid eye contact and cqc, fighting from a distance.

3. The fact that it took Gai years to be able to fight while avoiding eye contact doesn’t mean anything. Gai isn’t talented lol st anything but hard work. So it makes sense that it would take Gai eons to accomplish something that much more talented Ninja with Ninjutsu aiding them (like sensing, motion detection barriers, etc...) could accomplish much more casually. To give example seemingly the Gokage avoided eye contact against 5 Madara clones for a prolonged period of time; and Madara only got Ei when he was distracted; and I really doubt any of them dedicated years to learning to fight that way (except maybe Mei) and none of them even had detection abilities (except motion detection with Gaara sand).


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## MSAL (Jan 27, 2019)

So, you are essentially perpetuating the notion that Jiraiya could have beaten both Kisame and Itachi in that hallway, or in general?


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2019)

MSAL said:


> So, you are essentially perpetuating the notion that Jiraiya could have beaten both Kisame and Itachi in that hallway, or in general?


In general I believe due to illness Itachi would ether die from over using his abilities killing Jiraiya or that he’d die right before killing Jiraiya with Susanoo due to illness similar to Kimi vs Gaara or loose to one of the Elder Toads Sound Senjutsu in combination with Jiraiya attacks. While Kisame doesn’t really change the outcome


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## Grinningfox (Jan 27, 2019)

The Kisame disrespect needs to stop

Reactions: Like 1


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## MSAL (Jan 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> In general I believe due to illness Itachi would ether die from over using his abilities killing Jiraiya



His stamina gets targeted a lot and rightly so, as it's a potential weakness of his. However, let's start at the base level. You must be aware that a having a Sharingan active requires the use of chakra?

Most of the time we see Itachi with his sharingan active. How much chakra a sharingan I cant answer, but at the very least, with that as a starting point, we know that Itachi is constantly consuming his chakra reserves on this level.

Let's start here.




> or that he’d die right before killing Jiraiya with Susanoo due to illness similar to Kimi vs Gaara



This would depend upon many factors. In that fight Kimi had the disadvantage. He was fighting against an opponent who who could outrange him and keep him out of melee range. In his base level he couldn't approach Gaara with the sand keeping him at distance. His answer to this was the CS2, which allowed him the extra speed and power boost to tank his way through through the sand. 

The advantage levels here are not so much different, and Itachi has many abilities around any disadvantages he does face, here.
So, it depends upon many factors. 



> or loose to one of the Elder Toads Sound Senjutsu in combination with Jiraiya attacks.



Perhaps. Again this depends upon many factors. Can Jiraiya enter sage mode before he is either incapacitated or killed, is one such factor.




> While Kisame doesn’t really change the outcome



If Kisame was a Chuunin level fighter or even a jounin level fighter I may agree with you. Kisame is at the very least a kage level fighter, and whilst a lot of his skills are aoe based, that doesn't denote the fact he can be useful. As a fighter on that level of course is he useful.


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2019)

MSAL said:


> His stamina gets targeted a lot and rightly so, as it's a potential weakness of his. However, let's start at the base level. You must be aware that a having a Sharingan active requires the use of chakra?
> 
> Most of the time we see Itachi with his sharingan active. How much chakra a sharingan I cant answer, but at the very least, with that as a starting point, we know that Itachi is constantly consuming his chakra reserves on this level.
> 
> ...


Yes all of this depends on many factors but I’m inclined to believe it goes that way due to many years debating those factors and Itachis own thoughts on the matter.

Kisame is a Low-Kage level while Jiraiya and Italy’s are among the strongest. So the gap between those 2 and Kisame is as big as the gap between say an avarage Kage class and skilled Jonin. Featwise Jiraiya is also really good for taking on multiple enemies due to his large AOE attacks, bushin, and summons. We actually saw this against Pain.


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## MSAL (Jan 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes all of this depends on many factors but I’m inclined to believe it goes that way due to many years debating those factors and Itachis own thoughts on the matter.



Then i'm up for a logical debate if you are. It's been a while since I've had one with you.



> Kisame is a Low-Kage level while Jiraiya and Italy’s are among the strongest. So the gap between those 2 and Kisame is as big as the gap between say an avarage Kage class and skilled Jonin. Featwise Jiraiya is also really good for taking on multiple enemies due to his large AOE attacks, bushin, and summons. We actually saw this against Pain.



A kage level fighter will still make a difference if the skills between the other two combatants are not light years apart.


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Then i'm up for a logical debate if you are. It's been a while since I've had one with you.
> 
> 
> 
> A kage level fighter will still make a difference if the skills between the other two combatants are not light years apart.


I will try but it might take me awhile to respond and I don’t know how much I can respond to points due to work. 

And it largely depends on the scenario, but the difference is usually small. In this case it won’t matter; very similar to how Konan didn’t matter in Pain vs Jiraiya


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## MSAL (Jan 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I will try but it might take me awhile to respond and I don’t know how much I can respond to points due to work.



Ok well I'll let you flesh out some discussion points when you can and we can both work on them.



> And it largely depends on the scenario, but the difference is usually small. In this case it won’t matter; very similar to how Konan didn’t matter in Pain vs Jiraiya



To be fair she was fighting alone not with any of the paths.


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## Turrin (Jan 28, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Ok well I'll let you flesh out some discussion points when you can and we can both work on them.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair she was fighting alone not with any of the paths.


I’ll let you start with any points you want to discuss, because most of my points are in the opening. So it would be easier if you just put forward anything you feel wasn’t addressed there already or you have more questions on. Like why do you think Itachi wins (baring in mind this is sick Itachi).

Animal Path shows up and saves her; and still tells her to get out of his way. I mean basically that is exactly what happened with Kisame and Itachi too. Kisame was useless and Itachi needed to save him. And I imagine if the fight continued Itachi would have just told Kisame to stay out of his way


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## Sapherosth (Jan 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’ll let you start with any points you want to discuss, because most of my points are in the opening. So it would be easier if you just put forward anything you feel wasn’t addressed there already or you have more questions on. Like why do you think Itachi wins (baring in mind this is sick Itachi).
> 
> Animal Path shows up and saves her; and still tells her to get out of his way. I mean basically that is exactly what happened with Kisame and Itachi too. Kisame was useless and Itachi needed to save him. And I imagine if the fight continued Itachi would have just told Kisame to stay out of his way




Yeah, just like how Sakura was irrelevant in the battle against Kaguya despite being hundreds of tiers below her.


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## Turrin (Jan 28, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Yeah, just like how Sakura was irrelevant in the battle against Kaguya despite being hundreds of tiers below her.


Sakura is a support specialist and was in a team setting with 4 others to really be effective (and even then there was a lot of plot kai involved). Kisame isn’t a support specialist; only has one person on his team here and admits that he’d be useless and indeed was useless against Jiraiya opening move. Way different circumstances and you know it.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sakura is a support specialist and was in a team setting with 4 others to really be effective (and even then there was a lot of plot kai involved). Kisame isn’t a support specialist; only has one person on his team here and admits that he’d be useless and indeed was useless against Jiraiya opening move. Way different circumstances and you know it.




Er.. no. In that case, just like everybody fodder who was useless against Juubi, Obito and Madara, right? 

Mei should've been ENTIRELY useless against Madara because she was dirt compared to him, yet she wasn't. She isn't a "support specialist" nor does her techniques are not aoe and dangerous to comrades. But hey, Kisame is a different case. 

You're just being dishonest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jan 28, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Er.. no. In that case, just like everybody fodder who was useless against Juubi, Obito and Madara, right?
> 
> Mei should've been ENTIRELY useless against Madara because she was dirt compared to him, yet she wasn't. She isn't a "support specialist" nor does her techniques are not aoe and dangerous to comrades. But hey, Kisame is a different case.
> 
> You're just being dishonest.


Mei was largely useless and didn’t change the outcome of that battle. 

Also the impact of lower tier characters becomes more pronounced in a bigger team. Sakura and Mei were on bigger teams. 

No need to accuse someone of being dishonest; stick to the points being made.


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## MSAL (Jan 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’ll let you start with any points you want to discuss, because most of my points are in the opening. So it would be easier if you just put forward anything you feel wasn’t addressed there already or you have more questions on. Like why do you think Itachi wins (baring in mind this is sick Itachi).



Let's focus firstly on his stamina then, as that partially dictates his fighting style. We can start with my previous comments on his Sharingan consuming chakra.



> Animal Path shows up and saves her; and still tells her to get out of his way. I mean basically that is exactly what happened with Kisame and Itachi too. Kisame was useless and Itachi needed to save him. And I imagine if the fight continued Itachi would have just told Kisame to stay out of his way



He tells he to get out of the way because he was annoyed she was attacked and because he didn't want her to get hurt, most likely. Also it stands to reason because Jiraiya was on his own and it was a respect thing.

However we don't know how useful or not she would've truly been because she could've easily supported Nagato, for example tracking down Jiraiya when he was retreating o buy time for sage mode.


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## Turrin (Jan 28, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Let's focus firstly on his stamina then, as that partially dictates his fighting style. We can start with my previous comments on his Sharingan consuming chakra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I don’t think Itachi stamina is horrible I just think Mangekyo and even more so Susanoo heavily taxes Itachi physically in his weakened condition sick. Healthy Sasuke even said using Susanoo felt like every cell in his body was burning and he coughs up blood from using Susanoo extensively in the Danzig fight so imagine how that effects someone who has a horrible illness. 

2. I think he knows she won’t be useful for the same reason Kisame wouldn’t be as a simple Jiraiya clone and summons can deal with them.


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## MSAL (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I don’t think Itachi stamina is horrible I just think Mangekyo and even more so Susanoo heavily taxes Itachi physically in his weakened condition sick. Healthy Sasuke even said using Susanoo felt like every cell in his body was burning and he coughs up blood from using Susanoo extensively in the Danzig fight so imagine how that effects someone who has a horrible illness.



His illness should absolutely be taken into context. But lets ad another side to the argument. As low as Itachi's stamina is, he has something which counterbalances that to some degree. He has very good chakra control. This helps Itachi compete in prolonged fights, as he is not wasting chakra needlessly and tiring himself out quickly - and this imo, partially explains why Sasuke tired out quicker against Itachi in their battle and why Itachi lasted longer. 

A good example of this, is his mastery of genjutsu, which requires that excellent chakra control.



> 2. I think he knows she won’t be useful for the same reason Kisame wouldn’t be as a simple Jiraiya clone and summons can deal with them.



Is it that simple? If Jiraiya is trying to get into SM then Konan and Kisame can become absolute nightmares for him.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

MSAL said:


> His illness should absolutely be taken into context. But lets ad another side to the argument. As low as Itachi's stamina is, he has something which counterbalances that to some degree. He has very good chakra control. This helps Itachi compete in prolonged fights, as he is not wasting chakra needlessly and tiring himself out quickly - and this imo, partially explains why Sasuke tired out quicker against Itachi in their battle and why Itachi lasted longer.
> 
> A good example of this, is his mastery of genjutsu, which requires that excellent chakra control.
> 
> ...



1. I agree with what your saying about Itachi chakra control which is why I said his stamina isn’t that bad. I’m saying something else entirely:

That using Mangekyo specifically has a negative impact on his physical healthy (Susanoo most of all) due to illness. As such he can’t use Mangekyo (and even more so Susanoo) as freely as other Mangekyo users. I personally believe even using Susanoo V3/4 for more then a minute or so will cause Itachi to have a heart attack and die from his illness.

2. I don’t think they would be; as again I think a Base Jiraiya clone could handle them alongside summons at the very least until he reaches SM. We can talk through it if you want


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## Trojan (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> In general I believe due to illness Itachi would ether die from over using his abilities killing Jiraiya or that he’d die right before killing Jiraiya with Susanoo due to illness similar to Kimi vs Gaara or loose to one of the Elder Toads Sound Senjutsu in combination with Jiraiya attacks. While Kisame doesn’t really change the outcome


How do you know that itachi was ill in part 1? 
Or are you saying because he was "allegedly" ill when he was about to die
then that is a proof he was ill his entire life?


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## MSAL (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I agree with what your saying about Itachi chakra control which is why I said his stamina isn’t that bad. I’m saying something else entirely:
> 
> That using Mangekyo specifically has a negative impact on his physical healthy (Susanoo most of all) due to illness. As such he can’t use Mangekyo (and even more so Susanoo) as freely as other Mangekyo users



I don't disagree with this, and as you pointed out, we get an idea of how it consumes chakra and lifeforce via Sasuke.

We know that he can at least use three ms techniques before he starts to tire. Now, that's not to say he couldn't use 1 or 2 more ms techniques, but we know for sure at that stage in part 1 it started to tire him.

Its never really been unreasonable to talk about the cost of ms usage, due to them special techniques, probably on an s class level.

What we do know though is because of his exceptional chakra control, he can prolong the usage of the technique. Effectively he was on medicines at the time of Sasuke, but we saw evidence of the former at that point.

So, at worst Itachi has possibly 5-6 bursts of his ms in a fight if he is going all out, before he becomes rendered useless, this ofc depends upon the state of his illness..

Thats at least potentially 5-6 game ending chances with high level jutsu to use, assuming these are pretty much consecutive uses, or not that far apart.

That is enough opportunity against most kage level fighters to either win or cause heavy damage.




> . I personally believe even using Susanoo V3/4 for more then a minute or so will cause Itachi to have a heart attack and die from his illness


. 

I reckon 3-5  minutes if continuous use at the very least 3. That could be enough in a high level fight. Remember, by the time he used Susano'o he was virtually dead.



> 2. I don’t think they would be; as again I think a Base Jiraiya clone could handle them alongside summons at the very least until he reaches SM. We can talk through it if you want



I'm talking about in conjunction with either Itachi or Pein. The aoe ability then matters. I dont mind, im up for a friendly debate


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

MSAL said:


> I don't disagree with this, and as you pointed out, we get an idea of how it consumes chakra and lifeforce via Sasuke.
> 
> We know that he can at least use three ms techniques before he starts to tire. Now, that's not to say he couldn't use 1 or 2 more ms techniques, but we know for sure at that stage in part 1 it started to tire him.
> 
> ...


Itachi used 2 Amaterasu; and the Mangekyo faded from that eye

Itachi used 1 Tskuyomi and Susanoo for brief instance to block Kirin; and the Mangekyo faded from that eye

After that he used Susanoo again for a few seconds (Maybe half a minute) and died.

Given this I'd estimate that he can use x2 Tsukuyomi and x2 Amaterasu; after which if he uses Mangekyo again he'd die; So basically 4 MS w/o death; and 5 w/ death.

Alternatively he seemingly can use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu less, in exchange to extend his time using Susanoo; but even using Tsukuyomi 1 less time, it seemed like he still lost the Mangekyo in that eye after using Susanoo for only a few seconds to defend Kirin.

Most likely this is due to the higher toll Susanoo is cited to take on the users body; again in conjunction with his illness.

That's why I say at best he can use Susanoo for a minute or so, if he doesn't use many other Mangekyo Techniques.

----

And I think SM-Jiraiya has counters to Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu; so what he looses to is Susanoo.

So for me it's basically can Itachi kill Jiraiya before Susanoo kills him. And that greatly depends on the time he can use Susanoo (again augmented by how many Mangekyo Techniques he's used previously) and circumstance (Battlefield and Mind-Set).



> I'm talking about in conjunction with either Itachi or Pein. The aoe ability then matters. I dont mind, im up for a friendly debate


That's why I say clone. A clone (& Summons) handles Kisame, while the real Jiraiya handles Itachi.


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## Gianfi (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Itachi used 2 Amaterasu; and the Mangekyo faded from that eye
> 
> Itachi used 1 Tskuyomi and Susanoo for brief instance to block Kirin; and the Mangekyo faded from that eye
> 
> ...


Why are you Part2 Itachi’s stamina feats when, I assume, this fight takes place in Part 1?


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> Why are you Part2 Itachi’s stamina feats when, I assume, this fight takes place in Part 1?


Really have nothing to differentiate the two and Itachi said he needed to rest after using 3 Mangekyo techniques (2 of which were spread out); so I don’t think there is that much difference between P1/P2 he’s sick and weakened in both


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## Gianfi (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Really have nothing to differentiate the two and Itachi said he needed to rest after using 3 Mangekyo techniques (2 of which were spread out); so I don’t think there is that much difference between P1/P2 he’s sick and weakened in both


Part 2 Itachi almost collapsed after 1 Tsukuyomi. Part 1 Itachi used 2 and didn’t collapse, and shortly after the second he also used Amaterasu (to escape the stomach) and still didn’t collapse. His health in part 1 is>>>Part 2. He said he needed rest because obviously extensive use of the Mangekyo would make him go blind in the long term, and he needed to stay alive for years in order to face Sasuke. However, unless specified in the stipulations, NBD Itachi doesn’t really care about facing Sasuke in an unspecified future, so he doesn’t need to worry about resting his eyes


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> Part 2 Itachi almost collapsed after 1 Tsukuyomi. Part 1 Itachi used 2 and didn’t collapse, and shortly after the second he also used Amaterasu (to escape the stomach) and still didn’t collapse. His health in part 1 is>>>Part 2. He said he needed rest because obviously extensive use of the Mangekyo would make him go blind in the long term, and he needed to stay alive for years in order to face Sasuke. However, unless specified in the stipulations, NBD Itachi doesn’t really care about facing Sasuke in an unspecified future, so he doesn’t need to worry about resting his eyes


Itachi collapsing was due to Sasuke breaking Tskuyomi not his health. Different circumstances


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## Kronus (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei was largely useless and didn’t change the outcome of that battle.
> 
> Also the impact of lower tier characters becomes more pronounced in a bigger team. Sakura and Mei were on bigger teams.
> 
> No need to accuse someone of being dishonest; stick to the points being made.



How was Mei largely useless? Tsunade said they'd have no chance without shutting down Madara's fire jutsu. She was the only member of the Alliance who could've possibly countered Madara's fire. She and the Raikage stalled Madara while Tsunade was healing Onoki and Gaara. Without her Hidden Mist, A4 and Onoki may not have landed that first blow that sent Madara flying. 


Kisame not making a difference doesn't make sense. Kid Naruto and Sasuke made a difference in Kakashi and Zabuza's fight. Gaara, Lee, Kakashi, and Minato made a difference in Gai vs. Madara. Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori.  Being enormously weaker has never meant you were useless in a battle. 


Samehada counters Rasengan, water attacks push away burning oil, a thousand sharks distract Jiraiya, Samehada can transfer chakra to Itachi, and Kisame can tunnel through the earth. Also, Kisame has far greater reach to counter Sage Mode senses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Really have nothing to differentiate the two and Itachi said he needed to rest after using 3 Mangekyo techniques (2 of which were spread out); so I don’t think there is that much difference between P1/P2 he’s sick and weakened in both



One major difference is the power inflation. 3 MS limit is more or less in the same boat as Kakashi's 4 Raikiri limit from part 1.  Considering Kakashi used like 6 raikiri during Kakuzu - Hidan battle on top of lots of other shit + physical exhaustion and he admitted he had room for a MS shot, means that Itachi in part 2 would have at least room for 6 MS techniques and he'd be on his feet after using them.

Even if we are specifically referring to the Uchiha bros time frame which happened when Itachi was literally in his death bed then he still should be able to use 1 Tsukiyomi(actually it was countered so it had a huge backlash on him, a regular one shouldn't take as much of a toll on him), 2 Amaterasu and various stages of Susano'O for a couple of minutes on top of regular genjutsu, bunshins, katons and lots  of physical manuevering most of which while he had a gashing wound on his leg. 

+ We know for a fact that Zetsu compared his condition to what he saw from his earlier displays and he thought Itachi might have been *severely* wounded before the fight.


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## MSAL (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Itachi used 2 Amaterasu; and the Mangekyo faded from that eye
> 
> Itachi used 1 Tskuyomi and Susanoo for brief instance to block Kirin; and the Mangekyo faded from that eye
> 
> ...



Yes, he used Tsukuyomi, then Amaterasu twice, and then he activated Susano'o twice, arguably three times. He lost his eyesight in both eyes but was still able to fight for a small period of time.

But don't forget, he was near the end of his life at this point, and that is why I say he could arguably have 5-6 uses depending upon what state he is in. Susano'o was active for at least 2 minutes minimum, possibly 3-4 given the dialogue and actions he took.




> And I think SM-Jiraiya has counters to Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu; so what he looses to is Susanoo



All jutsu have counters. It's about getting them off or not that matters.



> So for me it's basically can Itachi kill Jiraiya before Susanoo kills him. And that greatly depends on the time he can use Susanoo (again augmented by how many Mangekyo Techniques he's used previously) and circumstance (Battlefield and Mind-Set).



If he gets caught in Tsukuyomi its over, just like if Itachi gets caught in frog song its over.




> That's why I say clone. A clone (& Summons) handles Kisame, while the real Jiraiya handles Itachi.



Kisame also has clones.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Yes, he used Tsukuyomi, then Amaterasu twice, and then he activated Susano'o twice, arguably three times. He lost his eyesight in both eyes but was still able to fight for a small period of time.
> 
> , and that is why I say he could arguably have 5-6 uses depending upon what state he is in. Susano'o was active for at least 2 minutes minimum, possibly 3-4 given the dialogue and actions he took.


I don't agree with it being 2Min. 

Kirin landed in a fraction of a second; so at most (this is high-balling) Susanoo was activated to defend it for 1-3s

Then look at the amount of actions taken in the span of 10s in SM-Naruto vs Deva. 

I'd consider Susanoo at least as fast as SM-Naruto and Deva (Probably Low-balling Susanoo)

Now way all the actions Susanoo took against Yamata were longer then 10s

Adding in time for Dialog and the portion where Itachi walks towards Sasuke defending the explosive Tags; maybe that's another 30-40s (which is another high-ball estimate).

Add those together and were at best close to 1min; and that's high-ball estimate. That whole exchange could have easily been no more then 20s-30s. 



> But don't forget, he was near the end of his life at this point


But were talking about Sick-Itachi, so that tracks. As I already said Healthy-Itachi probably beats Jiraiya, with the only debatable thing being Ma/Pa Sound Ninjutsu.



> All jutsu have counters. It's about getting them off or not that matters
> If he gets caught in Tsukuyomi its over, just like if Itachi gets caught in frog song its over.


Sure, and I believe Jiraiya will likely counter these 2 effectively.

I don't see Jiraiya getting caught in Tsukuyomi; I'm also not sure it's all over, I wouldn't put it past Kishi to have Jiraiya tank that shit through sheer will (Just as he willed himself back to life).




> Kisame also has clones.


And Kisame + Clones still get held back by Jiraiya's Clone + Summons.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> One major difference is the power inflation. 3 MS limit is more or less in the same boat as Kakashi's 4 Raikiri limit from part 1.  Considering Kakashi used like 6 raikiri during Kakuzu - Hidan battle on top of lots of other shit + physical exhaustion and he admitted he had room for a MS shot, means that Itachi in part 2 would have at least room for 6 MS techniques and he'd be on his feet after using them.


Why are we scaling Itachi to Kakashi. Kakashi doesn't have illness effecting him. Kakashi also improved his mastery of Sharingan from PI to PII lowering it's strain and allowing him to use his stamina on other things.



> Even if we are specifically referring to the Uchiha bros time frame which happened when Itachi was literally in his death bed then he still should be able to use 1 Tsukiyomi(actually it was countered so it had a huge backlash on him, a regular one shouldn't take as much of a toll on him), 2 Amaterasu and various stages of Susano'O for a couple of minutes on top of regular genjutsu, bunshins, katons and lots  of physical manuevering most of which while he had a gashing wound on his leg.


I don't agree that Itachi used Susanoo longer then 1min in that fight (My explanation to MSAL can be referenced above)

I also don't think the other Jutsu he uses matters, I think Mangekyo specifically impacts his health, which is why it's a problem not necessary a stamina issue. So for example someone could have fully restored Itachi's chakra after he blocks Kirin and I still think he would have died if he used Susanoo against Yamata after that.



> + We know for a fact that Zetsu compared his condition to what he saw from his earlier displays and he thought Itachi might have been *severely* wounded before the fight.


Yeah he was comparing him to Flash-Back Itachi the one that slapped Orochimaru and the Clan (alongside Obito); who was already in Akatsuki. Itachi in the Manga was heavily weakened compared to that. We see that when he's brought back as an Edo; and can spam Susanoo and can physically keep up with B, SM-Kabuto, & KCM-Naruto no problem


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## MSAL (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I don't agree with it being 2Min.
> 
> Kirin landed in a fraction of a second; so at most (this is high-balling) Susanoo was activated to defend it for 1-3s
> 
> ...



He spent at least 5-10 seconds getting up as he reactivated Susano'o.

There was at least 20-25 seconds before Orochimaru came out. 

There was at the very least 20-25 seconds between that and then sealing Orochimaru.

I would say then at least 30-40 seconds between that and his death



As a lowball figure that is over a minute and a half. He was blind and visibly dying here.








> But were talking about Sick-Itachi, so that tracks. As I already said Healthy-Itachi probably beats Jiraiya, with the only debatable thing being Ma/Pa Sound Ninjutsu.



So then which sic Itachi are we talking about, the one who was dying against Sasuke?




> Sure, and I believe Jiraiya will likely counter these 2 effectively



Let's go through it then. How? You start.



> I don't see Jiraiya getting caught in Tsukuyomi; I'm also not sure it's all over, I wouldn't put it past Kishi to have Jiraiya tank that shit through sheer will (Just as he willed himself back to life).



That's a little bit of a stretch.




> And Kisame + Clones still get held back by Jiraiya's Clone + Summons.



Location matters.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

MSAL said:


> He spent at least 5-10 seconds getting up as he reactivated Susano'o.
> 
> There was at least 20-25 seconds before Orochimaru came out.
> 
> ...


Where are you getting those calculations from?

As I said based on what Pain and Naruto did in a matter of 10s, I find those time-frames very unlikely.



> So then which sic Itachi are we talking about, the one who was dying against Sasuke?


Yeah that's the only one we have the ability to draw feats off of. 

Basically we only have displays from Sick-Itachi & Edo-Itachi, both in PII. 

PI Itachi barely did anything and it's impossible to know how ill he was then.



> Let's go through it then. How? You start.


Okay, whether you believe Jiraiya can use SM Sensing like DBIV says or not; MA/PA can. MA/PA will sense Itachi Doryoku when he goes to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu and warn Jiraiya. The same way we saw Nagato sense Itachi's Doryoku and warn Naruto/B. From there Jiraiya will take defensive action. What kind of defensive action depends on the knowledge we grant him. I'd argue in a no knowledge scenario he'd likely rely on Kage-Bushin or Block LOS outright as he wouldn't know what to expect; and those are the two safest options. If he has knowledge; or once one of these Techniques are used against Bushin, he could even more effectively defend himself.



> That's a little bit of a stretch.


Jiraiya willing himself back to life is a little bit of stretch too. 



> Location matters.


No it doesn't.


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## MSAL (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Where are you getting those calculations from?
> 
> As I said based on what Pain and Naruto did in a matter of 10s, I find those time-frames very unlikely.



It's simple. Talk the dialogue through slowly. If it helps use the anime voice of Itachi.

For the movements, remember that this is not a high speed fight. It's a slow attritional one as they are both exhausted. You need to account for that.




> Yeah that's the only one we have the ability to draw feats off of.
> 
> Basically we only have displays from Sick-Itachi & Edo-Itachi, both in PII.
> 
> PI Itachi barely did anything and it's impossible to know how ill he was then.



He did enough in part 1 to guesstimate things, and through the dispaly he did with his 30% clone.
If you're using the exact time that Itachi fought Sasuke then I will drop the MS usage to 3-4. That's still 3-4 chances minimum.




> Okay, whether you believe Jiraiya can use SM Sensing like DBIV says or not; MA/PA can. MA/PA will sense Itachi Doryoku when he goes to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu and warn Jiraiya.



You are scaling that off Nagato, when it seems he had unique sensory abilities.

I don't see how he would sense the uild up of chakra for the usage of Tsukuyomi. That sounds highly implausible, especially given that the frogs; A) don't possess a Sharingan and B) There has never been anything pointing for the ability requiring build up.



> The same way we saw Nagato sense Itachi's Doryoku and warn Naruto/B.



You can't scale them the same.



> From there Jiraiya will take defensive action. What kind of defensive action depends on the knowledge we grant him. I'd argue in a no knowledge scenario he'd likely rely on Kage-Bushin or Block LOS outright as he wouldn't know what to expect; and those are the two safest options.



Itachi has clones he can use and his sharingan to deal with the summons. Itachi's crows can also use genjutsu.



> If he has knowledge; or once one of these Techniques are used against Bushin, he could even more effectively defend himself.



You could same about most high level ninja if they had the knowledge.




> Jiraiya willing himself back to life is a little bit of stretch too.



It's more believable than tanking a temporal genjutsu.




> No it doesn't.



Of course it does. Do you think Jiraiya would summon Gamabunta in that hallway?
Kisame could flood the hallway though, for example.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

MSAL said:


> It's simple. Talk the dialogue through slowly. If it helps use the anime voice of Itachi.
> 
> For the movements, remember that this is not a high speed fight. It's a slow attritional one as they are both exhausted. You need to account for that


If your just saying it took 1 1/2-Min then I can agree to that based on the Dialog. But anymore then that I'd debate based on the fact that Pain and Naruto also exchange several lines of Dialog under 5s.



> He did enough in part 1 to guesstimate things, and through the dispaly he did with his 30% clone.


I don't see how. All he did in PI was use 1 Tsukuyomi, then rested for an unknown amount of time between facing Kakashi and meeting Sasuke, and then used 1 Tsukuyomi & 1 Amaterasu; and said he should rest again. That really doesn't tell us much.

30% Clone is bad guide; as Itachi says his Shoten can't use Mangekyo. This implies Mangekyo cost more then 30% of his chakra. We literally saw Itachi use Mangekyo more then that against Sasuke.



> If you're using the exact time that Itachi fought Sasuke then I will drop the MS usage to 3-4. That's still 3-4 chances minimum.


I agree with that



> You are scaling that off Nagato, when it seems he had unique sensory abilities.


SM Sensing has been hyped far more then Nagato's and has better feats. So if anything that is a Low-Ball estimation of what MA/PA can do with SM sensing.



> I don't see how he would sense the uild up of chakra for the usage of Tsukuyomi. That sounds highly implausible, especially given that the frogs; A) don't possess a Sharingan and B) There has never been anything pointing for the ability requiring build up.[


The only way Tsukuyomi doesn't have a build up is if it cost zero chakra to use. Otherwise it requires a build up of Itachi's Doryoku and that will be sensed, just like Amaterasu was.



> Itachi has clones he can use and his sharingan to deal with the summons. Itachi's crows can also use genjutsu.


I didn't mention summons....



> You could same about most high level ninja if they had the knowledge.


I agree



> It's more believable than tanking a temporal genjutsu.


I think surviving mental damage through will is FAR more believable then surviving physical damage.



> Do you think Jiraiya would summon Gamabunta in that hallway?
> Kisame could flood the hallway though, for example.


I think Jiraiya would summon the Toad Stomach before Kisame got a chance to use Jutsu; force Kisame and Itachi to escape. Basically what happened in canon.


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## MSAL (Jan 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If your just saying it took 1 1/2-Min then I can agree to that based on the Dialog. But anymore then that I'd debate based on the fact that Pain and Naruto also exchange several lines of Dialog under 5s.



Let's leave this point at this for then. but leave a note here that this was Itachi barely alive and had used multiple other techniques by this time.




> I don't see how. All he did in PI was use 1 Tsukuyomi, then rested for an unknown amount of time between facing Kakashi and meeting Sasuke, and then used 1 Tsukuyomi & 1 Amaterasu; and said he should rest again. That really doesn't tell us much.



It tells us that the MS is costly.

It tells us that it requires some sort of physical cooldown

It gives us an idea of what the current Itachi could use before he became tired. 

All starting points. Though , I was referring to his fighting style in general rather than just MS.



> 30% Clone is bad guide; as Itachi says his Shoten can't use Mangekyo. This implies Mangekyo cost more then 30% of his chakra. We literally saw Itachi use Mangekyo more then that against Sasuke.



Fighting style rather than just MS usage.



> SM Sensing has been hyped far more then Nagato's and has better feats. So if anything that is a Low-Ball estimation of what MA/PA can do with SM sensing


.

Nagato is the only one i've seen use that type of sensing. I've not seen any sage use it. They should have more hype given that the word itself relates to sensing, but that doesn't mean we can attribute the feats to them without logic. It might be possible, but their has been nothing pointing at that yet, certainly not with Jiraiya.




> The only way Tsukuyomi doesn't have a build up is if it cost zero chakra to use. Otherwise it requires a build up of Itachi's Doryoku and that will be sensed, just like Amaterasu was.



 Hardly enough build up to react or determine what type of jutsu it is, even if that type of sensing was possible.




> I think surviving mental damage through will is FAR more believable then surviving physical damage.



Not the type of mental damage that can be accrued in a very short time of one second.




> I think Jiraiya would summon the Toad Stomach before Kisame got a chance to use Jutsu; force Kisame and Itachi to escape. Basically what happened in canon.



I think Kisame would get some of the water out, then it would depend on Jiraiya's reactions.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Let's leave this point at this for then. but leave a note here that this was Itachi barely alive and had used multiple other techniques by this time.
> .


Sure



> It tells us that the MS is costly.
> 
> It tells us that it requires some sort of physical cooldown
> 
> ...


What does it tell us about his fighting style then?



> Nagato is the only one i've seen use that type of sensing. I've not seen any sage use it. They should have more hype given that the word itself relates to sensing, but that doesn't mean we can attribute the feats to them without logic. It might be possible, but their has been nothing pointing at that yet, certainly not with Jiraiya.


1 . When was Nagato's sensing indicated to be anything special or some kind of unique type? At best I think we can scale Nagato's sensing to Karin, based on them both being Uzamaki (this is generous though as Karin inherited the Uzamaki traits higher then Nagato); and Karin's sensing feats are vastly overshadowed by SM users.

2. Do we have any indication that Tskuyomi takes significantly less build up time then Amaterasu? And at the very least Jiraiya can look away to avoid eye contact during that time frame.

3. Still find intense potentially lethal mental damage more plausible to will through then lethal physical damage

4. How does some water help? Ultimately the fact that he didn’t do this and relied on itachi likely means it wouldn’t


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 29, 2019)

MSAL said:


> It's more believable than tanking a temporal genjutsu



Whoa, whoa ,whoooooooa....

....did you just say that *willing yourself back to life from the dead* is more believable than tanking tsukiyomi?


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## MSAL (Jan 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Whoa, whoa ,whoooooooa....
> 
> ....did you just say that *willing yourself back to life from the dead* is more believable than tanking tsukiyomi?


There are people who have come back to life in the real world, after dying. So it's not impossible, especially for a fictional ninja. A great feat o will power, amazing even, don't get me wrong. But not improbable when we think about it.

Now, for Tsukuyomi, you're talking about a large amount of psychological pressure in a very short time. So, would Jiraiya be able to tank the effects before he is killed in the aftermath? Unlikely, imo


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## MSAL (Jan 30, 2019)

Turrin said:


> What does it tell us about his fighting style then?



He's quick, uses feints and misdirection in combination with his genjutsu and likes to end things quickly, snd not prolong fights. That is one interpretation.




> 1 . When was Nagato's sensing indicated to be anything special or some kind of unique type?



He reverse tracked Kabuto's signature, whilst he had a barrier up.
He sensed the build up of chakra. Now, i'm guessing he perhaps knew about Amaterasu and saw it before and knew which eye it was used from, hence knowing about the jutsu.



> At best I think we can scale Nagato's sensing to Karin, based on them both being Uzamaki (this is generous though as Karin inherited the Uzamaki traits higher then Nagato); and Karin's sensing feats are vastly overshadowed by SM users.



In any of the SM sensing feats have we seen them see a build up of chakra and correctly guess what technique it is, to counter it?



> 2. Do we have any indication that Tskuyomi takes significantly less build up time then Amaterasu? And at the very least Jiraiya can look away to avoid eye contact during that time frame.



 How would he know its a genjutsu?



> 3. Still find intense potentially lethal mental damage more plausible to will through then lethal physical damage



Normally, I would agree, but for the time frame of the damage.



> 4. How does some water help? Ultimately the fact that he didn’t do this and relied on itachi likely means it wouldn’t



Itachi told them to retreat. He may have otherwise. He respected Itachi though.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2019)

MSAL said:


> He's quick, uses feints and misdirection in combination with his genjutsu and likes to end things quickly, snd not prolong fights. That is one interpretation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. I wouldn’t disagree with that

2. He was able to do that because of his connection to Kabuto through Edo Tensei. So that doesn’t suggest his sensing is anything special

3. We saw Sages fight blind; which means sensing the nature of technique and defending accordingly. Kabuto himself uses SM sensing to evade Amaterasu. And at one point Naruto senses the actions of the entire alliance during the 4th war. 

4. He wouldn’t, but I’d agrue he would know that Sharingan is know for its powerful Genjutsu; and if Ma/Pa tell him Itachi is building up some serious Doryoku; the bare minimum that Jiraiya can do to defend himself is avoid eye contact or create clones

5. Then we’ll have to agree to disgree 

6. And Kisame couldn’t spit out water while he ran? I feel this is a stretch; Kisame himself said he would be useless against Jiraiya and that’s exactly what we saw. Why do we need to even contest this?


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 30, 2019)

MSAL said:


> There are people who have come back to life in the real world, after dying. So it's not impossible, especially for a fictional ninja. A great feat o will power, amazing even, don't get me wrong. But not improbable when we think about it.



I think you're conflating medical resuscitation or those misidentified as dead with this feat. Nobody has ever simply willed themselves back to life from the dead.

This is also the single greatest feat of willpower in the entire series.



> Now, for Tsukuyomi, you're talking about a large amount of psychological pressure in a very short time. So, would Jiraiya be able to tank the effects before he is killed in the aftermath? Unlikely, imo



Come on dude. You actually feel that a jutsu that has 0 actual kills *can't be tanked* even by a guy with the willpower to *will himself back to life*?

I would argue that actual death>>>>>illusionary death and that anybody who can overcome real death via a feat of pure will would have the capacity to overcome the effects of an illusion.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I think you're conflating medical resuscitation or those misidentified as dead with this feat. Nobody has ever simply willed themselves back to life from the dead.
> 
> This is also the single greatest feat of willpower in the entire series.
> 
> ...




But did Jiraiya still died.....Which means the effects of Tsukuyomi would still remain. Do you know what that means? Jiraiya will be incapable of continuing the battle. 

Only an idiot would believe Jiraiya can tank Tsukuyomi can continue fighting.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 30, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why are we scaling Itachi to Kakashi. Kakashi doesn't have illness effecting him.


Power inflation effects everyone, it isn't a specific upgrade to a single person.

Also there is absolultey no evidence that Itachi was being hindered by his disease through out the entirety of P1 & p2.
Even if he was ill in part1, the effects of it on his health were minimal compared to when he fought Sasuke. Itachi was on his knees coughing blood after using his 2nd Amaterasu. In part 1 after using his 2nd Tsukiyomi he used Amaterasu shortly after and he kept running. There is a clear discrepancy between those 2 conditions.



> Kakashi also improved his mastery of Sharingan from PI to PII lowering it's strain and allowing him to use his stamina on other things.


That is also textbook power inflation. There has been no mention a change regarding Kakashi's sharingan's incompatibility with his non uchiha body.
Kishimoto simply removed that limiter because it was convenient to do so.



> I don't agree that Itachi used Susanoo longer then 1min in that fight (My explanation to MSAL can be referenced above)


And I disagree with your assesment. Also considering the condition he was in(minor-moderate physical injuries + death bed state + chakra exhaustion) being able to use it for a minute means that if he was slightly in a better condition then he could have used for a while longer.



> I also don't think the other Jutsu he uses matters, I think Mangekyo specifically impacts his health, which is why it's a problem not necessary a stamina issue. So for example someone could have fully restored Itachi's chakra after he blocks Kirin and I still think he would have died if he used Susanoo against Yamata after that.


I'm pretty sure it does because chakra exhaustion has its downside effects on pretty much every one, they tire out whether they are ill or not. In Itachi's case it just hastened the process of him dying.



> Yeah he was comparing him to Flash-Back Itachi the one that slapped Orochimaru and the Clan (alongside Obito); who was already in Akatsuki. Itachi in the Manga was heavily weakened compared to that.


There are alot of specifics in this post which aren't in the manga.
Unless Itachi has been in his deathbed for years, then I'm pretty sure Zetsu was comparing to whathever he saw from him a month, couple of months or a year prior.
He never specifically said he was referring to 10 years ago.



> We see that when he's brought back as an Edo; and can spam Susanoo and can physically keep up with B, SM-Kabuto, & KCM-Naruto no problem


But he never spammed Susano'O.
Against Nagato he used Stage 2 very briefly(for a Karate chop), and then switched on to Stage 3(used Magatama) again very briefly and then to stage 4 again very briefly.

Against Kabuto he used stage 1-2-3 in through short intervals only. He didn't maintain it more than 10 -15 seconds on each use.

As for B, SM-Kabuto, & KCM NAruto, where did you get the evidence that he wouldn't be able to react to them if he wasn't an edo ?


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 30, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> But did Jiraiya still died.....Which means the effects of Tsukuyomi would still remain. Do you know what that means? Jiraiya will be incapable of continuing the battle.



Overcoming the effects of *actual death*>>>>>overcoming the effects of an illusion



> Only an idiot would believe Jiraiya can tank Tsukuyomi can continue fighting.



Only an idiot would believe that illusionary death is harder to overcome real death.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2019)

@Grimmjowsensei 

I feel like I’m answering most of your points in my responses to MSAL so see my response to them for my thoughts. Sorry I just don’t have enough time in the next few days to repeat myself


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## MSAL (Jan 30, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 2. He was able to do that because of his connection to Kabuto through Edo Tensei. So that doesn’t suggest his sensing is anything special



Yet Nagato was the only one to do it.

Also, no one else, other than a doujutsu user, has shown the ability to see the build up of chakra in someone.



> 3. We saw Sages fight blind; which means sensing the nature of technique and defending accordingly. Kabuto himself uses SM sensing to evade Amaterasu. And at one point Naruto senses the actions of the entire alliance during the 4th war.



Kabuto senses his chakra, like a normal sensor would, albeit he can do it a little bit better being a sage. 

Why didn't he sense the build up of Izanami, if sages have that ability? Why would he even need to close his eyes in the first place?

As for Naruto, that was sensing the emotions.



> 4. He wouldn’t, but I’d agrue he would know that Sharingan is know for its powerful Genjutsu; and if Ma/Pa tell him Itachi is building up some serious Doryoku; the bare minimum that Jiraiya can do to defend himself is avoid eye contact or create clones



Possible counters yes, but that doesn't mean they will be successful counters. Jiraiya has hardly used clones in comparison to Itachi, with whom that fits more into his fighting style. Naruto was aware not to look at Itachi and he still got caught on two separate occasions after knowing that fact.. 

We know Itachi can use genjutsu outside his ocular powers, albeit we've only saw one.

It's not that simple as just to say he counters.



> 6. And Kisame couldn’t spit out water while he ran? I feel this is a stretch; Kisame himself said he would be useless against Jiraiya and that’s exactly what we saw. Why do we need to even contest this?



He said he would be useless, yet he got in Jiraiya's way, when Itachi was facing Sasuke.

As for not using the water, why didn't Itachi use Susano'o? Simply put, it's about the author deciding when to reveal the powers of his characters.


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## MSAL (Jan 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I think you're conflating medical resuscitation or those misidentified as dead with this feat. Nobody has ever simply willed themselves back to life from the dead.



No, I'm not talking about resuscitation. I actually saw this happen to my cousin. His heart stopped, they declared him dead, then it started up again. I was there, I remember.




> This is also the single greatest feat of willpower in the entire series.



Perhaps. From a purely story point of view, was pretty epic, I'm not going to lie. If he got one thing right, Kishimoto got the emotional weight of Jiraiya's death, correct.





> Come on dude. You actually feel that a jutsu that has 0 actual kills *can't be tanked* even by a guy with the willpower to *will himself back to life*?
> 
> I would argue that actual death>>>>>illusionary death and that anybody who can overcome real death via a feat of pure will would have the capacity to overcome the effects of an illusion.



This is not an ordinary genjutsu, that attacks senses. It's a dimension controlled by Itachi. There is no breaking out. Itachi can walk right up to Jiraiya if he wants and kill him before releasing the technique. This can happen in the space of a few seconds.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 30, 2019)

MSAL said:


> No, I'm not talking about resuscitation. I actually saw this happen to my cousin. His heart stopped, they declared him dead, then it started up again. I was there, I remember.



I covered that with "misidentified as dead"

These people don't will themselves back to life, they just didn't actually die.



> Perhaps. From a purely story point of view, was pretty epic, I'm not going to lie. If he got one thing right, Kishimoto got the emotional weight of Jiraiya's death, correct.



I agree.



> This is not an ordinary genjutsu, that attacks senses. It's a dimension controlled by Itachi. There is no breaking out. Itachi can walk right up to Jiraiya if he wants and kill him before releasing the technique. This can happen in the space of a few seconds.



I understand the genjutsu and it's effects. My point is no matter how great the genjutsu is, death, actual death, is worse. The will required to overcome actually dying is unreal, possibly immeasurable. I suspect it would also allow one to overcome the effects of a genjutsu, even one as potent as tsukiyomi.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Yet Nagato was the only one to do it.
> 
> Also, no one else, other than a doujutsu user, has shown the ability to see the build up of chakra in someone.
> 
> ...



1. Edo-Nagato was the only one we know off that attempted it. 

2. Nagato didn’t see the build up he sensed it; him being a Dojutsu user isn’t relevant 

3. Kabuto closed his eyes because even though he knew Tskuyomi was coming Itachi could still force eye contact, so closing his eyes makes sure that wouldn’t happen. 

Anyway can I ask you a question how does Minato or even Hashirama deal with Tskuyomi without knowledge? Do they just loose to it too?

4. Naruto isn’t on Jiriaya level so that’s not a good examples. 

5. Okay so how does Itachi deal with those counters?

6. And Jiraiya used Toad stomach to still target Itachi so that effort on Kisames part was useless

7. Because he used the less tax Amaterasu to escape; Kisame didnt do anything cause he was useless, as he said he would be


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## MSAL (Jan 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I covered that with "misidentified as dead"
> 
> These people don't will themselves back to life, they just didn't actually die.



Pretty certain the machines didn't misidentify his flatline.

Anyway, it's not germain anymore.




> I understand the genjutsu and it's effects. My point is no matter how great the genjutsu is, death, actual death, is worse. The will required to overcome actually dying is unreal, possibly immeasurable. I suspect it would also allow one to overcome the effects of a genjutsu, even one as potent as tsukiyomi.



How can he tank the genjutsu, when it's not just fixed on senses but another realm too?

He cannot escape unless Itachi drops the genjutsu. So, what if Itachi stabs him before he releases him?

Is this a new thing now where he can will himself back to life from any fatal injury?


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## MSAL (Jan 30, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Edo-Nagato was the only one we know off that attempted it.



Or the only one who could?

There were plenty of sensors.



> 2. Nagato didn’t see the build up he sensed it; him being a Dojutsu user isn’t relevant



That's still pinpointing chakra, so it's semantics. But if we are going with this, then you can't compare nagato to Sagrs in the first place, given you are saying the toad sages will see the build up of chakra.



> 3. Kabuto closed his eyes because even though he knew Tskuyomi was coming Itachi could still force eye contact, so closing his eyes makes sure that wouldn’t happen.



My point was that if he can sense the presence and build up of chakra and techniques, then its redundant to close his eyes as he can evade or counter everything.



> Anyway can I ask you a question how does Minato or even Hashirama deal with Tskuyomi without knowledge? Do they just loose to it too?



They can try and counter it, and I'm not saying Jiraiya can't try and counter it. I'm saying that if it hits him it's over.



> 4. Naruto isn’t on Jiriaya level so that’s not a good examples.



He forced eye contact which was the point. Jiraiya can be forced into eye contact. Hell he stared at Itachi during their meet-up.



> 5. Okay so how does Itachi deal with those counters?



 Clones? His hand seal speed? His awareness? Intelligence?



> 6. And Jiraiya used Toad stomach to still target Itachi so that effort on Kisames part was useless



That doesn't negate the fact he still tried to confront Jiraiya.



> 7. Because he used the less tax Amaterasu to escape; Kisame didnt do anything cause he was useless, as he said he would be



He respected Jiraiya's reputation. We saw in part 2 he wasn't useless.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 30, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Pretty certain the machines didn't misidentify his flatline.



Flatlining is a symptom of death, but does not always mean dead.

For example there are cases of people freezing, where all their bodily functions stop, and are resuscitated. 



> How can he tank the genjutsu, when it's not just fixed on senses but another realm too?



The realm is an illusion. A fantastic and powerful illusion, but an illusion nonetheless.

The genjutsu will hit, it will affect Jiraiya. I'm arguing that he can overcome those effects.



> He cannot escape unless Itachi drops the genjutsu.



I thought tsukiyomi was an instant effect jutsu? Itachi controls the passage of time in the illusion but the real world the jutsu ends in a moment. I don't think he can prolong the duration in the real world.



> So, what if Itachi stabs him before he releases him?



Is this even an option?



> Is this a new thing now where he can will himself back to life from any fatal injury?



I don't know. He has willed himself back to life once and then presumably dies again afterwards.

Regardless the point isn't that he will come back to life if Itachi kills him, but that the willpower he has (evidence by willing himself back to life) will assist him in overcoming the effects of tsukiyomi.


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## MSAL (Jan 30, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Flatlining is a symptom of death, but does not always mean dead.
> 
> For example there are cases of people freezing, where all their bodily functions stop, and are resuscitated.



Flatlining is representative of the ceasing of electrical activity in the heart and brain. There was brief defibrillation and the flatlining stayed. It was like that for 2 minutes before it the lines moved again. Anyway I don't want to strawman away form the topic.





> The realm is an illusion. A fantastic and powerful illusion, but an illusion nonetheless



Inside a realm where he controls time, space and substance. it's not a normal illusion. Why do you think Kakashi was surprised he wasn't killed?



> The genjutsu will hit, it will affect Jiraiya. I'm arguing that he can overcome those effects.



You are saying he can insta-overcome them and be battle fresh again. That is not likely to happen before he dies, or is incapacitated.




> I thought tsukiyomi was an instant effect jutsu? Itachi controls the passage of time in the illusion but the real world the jutsu ends in a moment. I don't think he can prolong the duration in the real world.



He can choose to release the jutsu when he wants.





> Is this even an option?



Of course it is. We've seen him fight in real time whilst he's been using a genjutsu,before (Naruto). We've also seen him move whilst someone under the effects of Tsukuyomi (Kabuto)





> I don't know. He has willed himself back to life once and then presumably dies again afterwards.
> 
> Regardless the point isn't that he will come back to life if Itachi kills him, but that the willpower he has (evidence by willing himself back to life) will assist him in overcoming the effects of tsukiyomi.



You can't simply say he can come back from death everytime he dies, lol. You can say it's a possiibiliity, but you can't definately state iit would happen everytime. That's a fallacy.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 30, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Inside a realm where he controls time, space and substance. it's not a normal illusion. Why do you think Kakashi was surprised he wasn't killed?



I understand the illusion. It's still just an illusion.

My premise is real death>>>illusionary death



> You are saying he can insta-overcome them and be battle fresh again. That is not likely to happen before he dies, or is incapacitated.



I never said how fast or to what extent. Simply that he would be able to defend himself even if hit.

It's not like Itachi is instantly ready to rock after tsukiyomi.

see it again.

 see it again.



> He can choose to release the jutsu when he wants.



Where has he shown this ability?

In every instance we have seen tsukuyomi is a one hit jutsu ending in an instant.



> Of course it is. We've seen him fight in real time whilst he's been using a genjutsu,before (Naruto).



It goes without saying tsukuyomi is not a regular genjutsu.



> We've also seen him move whilst someone under the effects of Tsukuyomi (Kabuto)



No we haven't.

Kabuto was under the effects of Izanami. Then Itachi used genjutsu to learn the edo release. No evidence of ever using tsukuyomi.



> You can't simply say he can come back from death everytime he dies, lol.



I didn't.



> You can say it's a possiibiliity, but you can't definately state iit would happen everytime. That's a fallacy.



I never said such a thing, so this is not relevant.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Or the only one who could?
> 
> There were plenty of sensors.
> 
> ...



1. When did any of those sensors (who were also Edos) ever say they couldn’t find Kabuto location? And keep this in mind when Itachi and Kabuto discuss this the feat is attributed to just someone whose a sensor; never do ether of them mention the need for some extraordinary sensor or anything like that. 

2. I didn’t say see; I said sense. Nagato sensed the build up, he didn’t see it with Rinnegan. 

3. Yeah Itachi can attempt to force eye contact on Jiraiya I agree; and we can talk through why i don’t think that will work; if you can give me examples of how’s Itachi would pull that off. But forcing eye contact is different then Jiraiya just looking into Itachis eyes 

4. How do those things help; please be more specific about what your thinking

5. Sure it does, if he was shown to be useless then confronting Jiriaya is meaningless. No different then Naruto confronting Kisame and Itachi; and also being useless. 

6. That’s even worse as it means even Tsunade just being a Sannin is far above him.

I don’t see anything from Part II that change how he was useless against Jiraiya in PI; it’s not like he fought and beat a Sannin in PII.


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## Phenomenon (Jan 30, 2019)

Soooo wonder who will come out on top to end this prolonged debate.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 31, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Overcoming the effects of *actual death*>>>>>overcoming the effects of an illusion
> 
> 
> 
> Only an idiot would believe that illusionary death is harder to overcome real death.




Yeah but did Jiraiya die? You're acting like the effects of Tsukuyomi would be completely negated by Jiraiya just because of his will. 

How about this, lets say Jiraiya takes Tsukuyomi and is not unconscious by it. Can he still fight against Itachi's Susano? 

Don't be an idiot please.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 31, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. When did any of those sensors (who were also Edos) ever say they couldn’t find Kabuto location? And keep this in mind when Itachi and Kabuto discuss this the feat is attributed to just someone whose a sensor; never do ether of them mention the need for some extraordinary sensor or anything like that.
> 
> 2. I didn’t say see; I said sense. Nagato sensed the build up, he didn’t see it with Rinnegan.
> 
> ...



How come Kabuto didn't sense Sasuke's Amateratsu build up?


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## MSAL (Jan 31, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I understand the illusion. It's still just an illusion.
> 
> My premise is real death>>>illusionary death



If we are being honest real death > any technique bar sealing probably.





> I never said how fast or to what extent. Simply that he would be able to defend himself even if hit.



It would depend upon the mental trauma caused, and even if he was able to still defend himself afterward, he would be disorientated and on the back foot. When Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi he was still able to fight, but he was still clearly effected by it.



> It's not like Itachi is instantly ready to rock after tsukiyomi.
> 
> see it again.
> 
> see it again.



He's in better shape than the ones under its effects.





> Where has he shown this ability?
> 
> In every instance we have seen tsukuyomi is a one hit jutsu ending in an instant.



Because it's a jutsu he can control. It's not just an autopilot ohko. He releases it against Kakashi and he releases it a bit later after showing Sasuke what he wanted him to see.





> No we haven't.
> 
> Kabuto was under the effects of Izanami. Then Itachi used genjutsu to learn the edo release. No evidence of ever using tsukuyomi.



He used Tsukuyomi to get Kabuto to release Edo Tensei




> I didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> I never said such a thing, so this is not relevant.



You are implying it. You are comparing two different types of trauma and saying because one is worse than the other than that mean that must happen all the time. 

In that case, what if Jiraiya gets his throat slashed? Would he be able to will himself back to life then?

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## MSAL (Jan 31, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. When did any of those sensors (who were also Edos) ever say they couldn’t find Kabuto location? And keep this in mind when Itachi and Kabuto discuss this the feat is attributed to just someone whose a sensor; never do ether of them mention the need for some extraordinary sensor or anything like that.



Kabuto was impressed Itachi found him. 



> 2. I didn’t say see; I said sense. Nagato sensed the build up, he didn’t see it with Rinnegan.





So tell me what the difference is between these two situations?

Both sensed a technique. My explanation of seeing it before/coming up against it before makes more sense.




> 3. Yeah Itachi can attempt to force eye contact on Jiraiya I agree; and we can talk through why i don’t think that will work; if you can give me examples of how’s Itachi would pull that off. But forcing eye contact is different then Jiraiya just looking into Itachis eyes



He can do it through clones, he can do it through positioning, he can do it through his crows, and if Jiraiya is looking right at him at any point, he can be genjutsu'd. We know from the passageway. Jiraiya looked into his eyes and was not bothered about what consequences may arise, as opposed to Kabuto who sealed his vision.



> 4. How do those things help; please be more specific about what your thinking



You haven't told me any particularly specific examples of counters yet outside of clones. When you do I can be a bit more specific



> 5. Sure it does, if he was shown to be useless then confronting Jiriaya is meaningless. No different then Naruto confronting Kisame and Itachi; and also being useless.



Confronting him would be meaningless then as would stepping in his way, which he did, if Jiraiya could just pony him aside. That staement means nothing when we see his feats in part 2. He respected the reputations of Jiraiya and Itachi and spoke about them with praise. He didn't respect Gai initially, and treated him with disdain, same with Asuma.



> 6. That’s even worse as it means even Tsunade just being a Sannin is far above him.
> 
> I don’t see anything from Part II that change how he was useless against Jiraiya in PI; it’s not like he fought and beat a Sannin in PII.



He showed us he could absorb using more than his sword, he showed us he could merge with his sword, he showed us he could create much bigger aoe jutsus, he showed us he was physically as tough as nails and showed a lot more strength than part 1, he showed us that he wasn't a dumb brute and could analyse to some degree, he showed us he had the reaction times to match quicker opponents, to name but a few.
][/QUOTE]


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## Bookworm (Jan 31, 2019)

About Jiraiya willing himself back to life, I honestly don't think it's _that_ impressive. It's probably the same as when someone is about to lose consciousness due to the cold, than after remembering somebody or something important in their life, they gain a burst off strength to wake up.

Itachi used this many jutsu during the day of the Sasuke fight:

2 Susanoo (including 1 Stage 4 Susanoo for likely a couple minutes)
3 Amaterasu (including  1 Inscription Seal: Amaterasu)
1 Tsukuyomi
2 Gokakyuu
3 Karasu Bunshin
2 genjutsu: sharingan
1 summon

Reactions: Like 2


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## MSAL (Jan 31, 2019)

Bookworm said:


> *About Jiraiya willing himself back to life, I honestly don't think it's all that impressive. It's probably the same as when someone is about to lose consciousness due to the cold, *than remembering somebody important in their life, they gain a burst off strength to wake up.
> 
> Itachi used the day of the Sasuke fight:
> 
> ...



That's a very good point. I just looked at the chapter to refresh myself on it, and I wish I had done it earlier. Jiraiya wasn't actually dead and then come back to life. He was losing consciousness which may have resulted in his death, but he was stiil conscious during that last burst. So essentially, he had "life flashing before my eyes" moment and regained enough wiillpower to write the code.

Not to say iit still wasn't an impressive feat of endurance, but he wasn't literally dead at that point. Good mention, I had forgotten.


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## Sinacog (Jan 31, 2019)

This thread is too long..lol..I'll read it though..but honestly..if the jiraiya summoned the toad stomach and the fight continuted..if Jiraiya went sage mode..he would've beat both of them..lol..but it's a good fight..man..nice one..but jiraiya wins..lol...


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 31, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> What the fuck are you babbling about?



Been gone awhile. Wasn't sure if you'd actually replied. Only come back to see notifications with your avi talking about another topic. Might be a little late. But you seem to have backed down the fervour of your point and refuse to answer questions regarding the surrounding context. So it's pretty obvious you knew you were wrong and just decided to continue out of stubbornness. Either that or you really are as stupid as make out. As someone confused by the words "forced comparison" - p.s - a comparison that is by nature _forced. _One that doesn't work by a technical or thematic standpoint. And alas - Kabuto wasn't making eye contact with Itachi. Jiriaya was. Everything - logic, recurring themes and even the scans you presented point to this fact. So a special pat on the back for debunking your own point and getting confused in the face of simple lexicon usage. True Congrats.



> It's just a comparison. Might seem "forced" to you because it exposed your double standard.



Cute.



> forced comparison is not an official logical fallacy, so I'm not sure what you're referring to



Oh... Did I ever label it an official logical fallacy? Does it not compute if no official logical fallacy is cited? Does your programming not understand the use of two words "forced" and "comparison" employed as a rhetorical jibe to summarise what you're arguing? Let's make it easier. "Forced" - something produced or maintained with unnatural effort. "Comparison" - an estimation of the similarities of two inferences. A good example - claiming Kabuto and Jiriaya are the same in making eye contact with Itachi... while one certainly isn't and the other certainly is. The _Official fallacy_ it's closest too is a *false equivalence*. But it shouldn't even take and idiot (and god knows your among those ranks) to understand that. This is the reason why this discussion is so surreal. It isn't even a question of disagreements over the Naruto lore. You are butchering logic on a level so elementary that maintaining a coherent dialogue is impossible. I'm not kidding when I say that a *chatbot* could outperform you in many of the points you've tried countering. And the same goes for your sub AI level sense of humour :



ShinAkuma said:


> Keep on trucking ZiggyZigZag WOOOOOOOOOO






ShinAkuma said:


> The premise is a panel showing two characters looking at each other means they *are looking at each other*.



If that's your new premise.... than goodnight. Concession accepted. Kabuto wasn't making eye contact with Itachi. The imputes for a successful genjutsu land wasn't present... and they're only looking at _each other. _If you didn't already know - _looking at each other_ - is not necessarily the same as making _eye contact_. As Sakura proves here  :

*Link Removed*

She's looking at Itachi, just not the portion of Itachi that are his eyes. Kabuto can indeed be looking at 95% of Itachi. Likewise his eyes might no be included in that equation though. Don't try and pretend these backpedling prefaces aren't soft concessions.  And It's obvious why you're back-pedalling. Having supported the wrong stance for several posts, debunking your own point with manga scans and pretending not to understand two words in simple english. But concession accepted, I suppose. Being the poorly coded chatbot you are. You see my argument is actaully supported by themes in Naruto especially when it comes to conundrum of Itachi's sharingan-stare. If we look at those themes and surrounding context it's even more obvious why Kabuto was avoiding eye contact, while Jman wasn't. Obviously you know this as you refuse to address these important contextual tidbits calming not to care about them instead :



ShinAkuma said:


> Well for one I said *I don't care about those things*.



Of course, you don't care for the context. The context debunks your point. The cutest part is that you're trying to deny having a stake in protecting Jiraiya's namesake. (he gets one-shotted by Itachi btw)



> I'm not arguing on behalf of Jiraiya, so what he did or didn't do isn't relevant to exposing your double standards.



Very convincing. Very convincing indeed. Perhaps another time you'll pretend not to know what a forced comparison is.... oops.



ShinAkuma said:


> That's fucking nonsense. We already know what it looks like when Kabuto is avoiding Itachi gaze :



*Wisdom of Shin* : _Unless Kabuto looks like this _

*Link Removed*

_he can't be avoiding Itachi's gaze_



_"fucking nonsense" 




_
It begs the question. Where is Jiraiya's blindfold in that case? He initiated the combat without one, yet he must be looking at Itachi's eyes without covering his own totally. Is Kabuto also making eye contact here without his hood covering his face?


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*





OK, I admit. I nearly stopped here. This was almost just too much ridiculousness to handle. I kinda want to try to be nice to you. but it becomes hard when:

1. You start throwing out unfunny non sequiturs.
2. Your series of rebuttals have been among the worst performances in NF history

But just for fun. I'll explain - again - why Kabuto might want to take extra precautions while engaging in any kind of physical confutation with Itachi and Sasuke. For one, the real trick behind Kabuto cloaking his entire body, as Sasuke eventually realises,  by  and then gather sage energy. The second is that merely looking away while conversing is much harder than looking away while fighting. Itachi can indeed force the eye contact he needs via taijutsu or a with the domineering pimp-hand of Susanoo. But there's not a single reason to assume that Kabuto would be careless before the fight commences. Itachi is capable of casting genjutsu while not throwing his hands around or rushing his enemy (duh) and has done so beforehand.



ShinAkuma said:


> He didn't cast genjutsu probably because they were not fighting yet. You know theme and perspective?



I do know theme and perspective. Which is why I know that if Kabuto was taking extreme measures to avoid eye contact while in combat, he's also taking some measures to avoid eye contact any other time the sharingan is active. With Jiriaya this contextual point isn't articulated anywhere. And is blatantly contradicted by not warning Naruto to avoid Itachi's eyes. _Theme and perspective_ also tells me that Itachi can cast genjutsu before the combat commences; such as with Deidara :

*Link Removed*

Which is why people tend to avoid Itachi's eyes *even before the fighting starts*

*Link Removed*

lol.

*Link Removed*

So once again. Every contextual cross-reference - recurring themes and perspective - support my premise and debunks yours. Which I come com equipped manga panels that help my argument while all you have to fall back on is a Jiriaya induced boner.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 31, 2019)

I'm wondering @Grinningfox do you have a reason to disagree with the post. Or do you simply not like the way I'm handling a blatant fanboy?


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## Grinningfox (Jan 31, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I'm wondering @Grinningfox do you have a reason to disagree with the post. Or do you simply not like the way I'm handling a blatant fanboy?



Both

I just don’t have time to get into it rn

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jan 31, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Both
> 
> I just don’t have time to get into it rn



Cute.

Well obviously it would take a lot of time to employ the vast amount of metal gymnastics to explain why Kabuto would give Itachi eye contact when the latter is plaining to genjutsu him. And the panels don't give any blatant indicators of eye contact like they do here :

*Link Removed*

Likewise, you're probably not smart enough to make a coherent point that wouldn't be as forced or conjecture based that could be done quickly.


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## Turrin (Jan 31, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Kabuto was impressed Itachi found him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

1. Yeah he was impressed because he though Itachi was a sensor too (before he learned Nagato was the one who did it)

2.  Feeling is different then sight; in fact Itachi didn’t even have Sharingan activated in the scene your referencing. So if you want to compare Itachi feeling Yamata no Orochi to Nagato feeling Amaterasu; all that means is Mangekyo excudes such pressure from its extreme doryoku that you don’t even need to be a sensor to feel it’s power. The same way Itachi felt the power of Yamata no Orochi without being a sensor. So that just hurts your case even more. 

3. Itachi cant cast Genjutsu through crows; he was only able to do that to Naruto through using the crow implanted with Shisui Eye and likely a form of transcription seal to get it to function that way; like we saw later on when Itachi stuffed the crow into Naruto & got it to activate at the sight of his Mangekyo or got Amaterasu yo activate against Obito.
Ether way that requires prep and isn’t relevant to a battle where their isn’t a chance for prep. 

4. Jiraiya staring down Itachi in the hall way, was likely just plot set up. But even if we ignore that Itachi only had 3T out and not Mangekyo; it’s my premise that he will take defensive action in response to the activation of the Mangekyo (the same way Ei did once Sasuke activates Mangekyo, and he wasn’t even a sensor)

5. Clones and blocking LOS with a smoke screen are enough, from there SM-Jiraiya can easily pressure Itachi into needing Susanoo with his Senjutsu techniques; at which point the tricky clock or how long Itachi can use Susanoo before he dies begins, and I don’t think he’d bother trying to use other MS Techs besides Susanoo because that would only bring him closer to death. That’s why I said it comes down to Susanoo.

6. We see characters confront ones they know that are stronger then them all the time in the manga; that act is meaningless.

7. Kisame showing more abilities was a given as he hadn’t fought yet. That’s no reason to disregard his own assessment of his strength, especially when none of those abilities are again anything a clone and summons couldn’t handle. I’ll talk through with you why a clone and summons can take Kisame if you want, but  whether you agree or not, there is no reason for us to believe Kisame was lying or disregard his own words; and even in P2 we again see Konan whose ALs partner be useless against Jiriaya. These characters are just levels apart.


----------



## Sapherosth (Jan 31, 2019)

MSAL said:


> That's a very good point. I just looked at the chapter to refresh myself on it, and I wish I had done it earlier. Jiraiya wasn't actually dead and then come back to life. He was losing consciousness which may have resulted in his death, but he was stiil conscious during that last burst. So essentially, he had "life flashing before my eyes" moment and regained enough wiillpower to write the code.
> 
> Not to say iit still wasn't an impressive feat of endurance, but he wasn't literally dead at that point. Good mention, I had forgotten.



Jiraiya won't be able to summon the same level of "will" during the fight if he didn't have to provide the code. Without purpose he wouldn't have done it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 31, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> I feel like I’m answering most of your points in my responses to MSAL so see my response to them for my thoughts. Sorry I just don’t have enough time in the next few days to repeat myself


It's alright, I've said everything I needed to say anyways I don't have much to add here.


----------



## MSAL (Jan 31, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah he was impressed because he though Itachi was a sensor too (before he learned Nagato was the one who did it)



Or, he wasn't expecting an edo to come knocking on his door through the barrier, which means he never planned for that.



> 2.  Feeling is different then sight; in fact Itachi didn’t even have Sharingan activated in the scene your referencing. So if you want to compare Itachi feeling Yamata no Orochi to Nagato feeling Amaterasu; all that means is Mangekyo excudes such pressure from its extreme doryoku that you don’t even need to be a sensor to feel it’s power. The same way Itachi felt the power of Yamata no Orochi without being a sensor. So that just hurts your case even more.



No that's not what I was referring too.

You are saying he sensed the build up of the chakra. I said okay, then I showed the panel of Itachi with Yamata no Orochi. Itachi was blind, so he knew the chakra to the technique. They both called out the exact name of the jutsu and felt/sensed the chakra that marked the technique.

That would not be possible unless they had encountered the technique before. That was what I was trying to point out. Nagato didn't just call out that he was about to use a MS technique, he called out the exact one. Same with Itachi and the Hydra.




> 3. Itachi cant cast Genjutsu through crows; he was only able to do that to Naruto through using the crow implanted with Shisui Eye and likely a form of transcription seal to get it to function that way; like we saw later on when Itachi stuffed the crow into Naruto & got it to activate at the sight of his Mangekyo or got Amaterasu yo activate against Obito.
> Ether way that requires prep and isn’t relevant to a battle where their isn’t a chance for prep



The clone that cast genjutsu on Naruto was formed from Crows.
.



> 4. Jiraiya staring down Itachi in the hall way, was likely just plot set up. But even if we ignore that Itachi only had 3T out and not Mangekyo; it’s my premise that he will take defensive action in response to the activation of the Mangekyo (the same way Ei did once Sasuke activates Mangekyo, and he wasn’t even a sensor)



And that tomfoolery is what would leave him open to being genjutsu'd



> 5. Clones and blocking LOS with a smoke screen are enough,



Itachi could create his own clones behind the smokescreen or evade it. It can be cleared with Shunshin



> from there SM-Jiraiya can easily pressure Itachi into needing Susanoo with his Senjutsu techniques;



Is he just going to be insta-SM mode?



> at which point the tricky clock or how long Itachi can use Susanoo before he dies begins, and I don’t think he’d bother trying to use other MS Techs besides Susanoo because that would only bring him closer to death. That’s why I said it comes down to Susanoo.



He can use any sort of clone feints or techniques to get close to Jiraiya or to find an opening. If Jiraiya is in SM, then yes, he may likely use Amaterasu and Susano'o at some point. Jiraiya has no knowledge of Susano'o and therefore becomes susceptible to being sealed if he is not careful.



> 6. We see characters confront ones they know that are stronger then them all the time in the manga; that act is meaningless.



If he was that bothered about his own lack of skill, that confrontation becomes meaningless.. It also seems Itachi trusted Kisame to watch his back given that he turned it on Jiraiya to deal with Sasuke. So, was Itachi an idiot who blatantly trusted Jiraiya not to attack his back because Sasuke yelled for it for it not to happen? Or  did he trust his partner to keep Jiraiya at bay?



> 7. Kisame showing more abilities was a given as he hadn’t fought yet. That’s no reason to disregard his own assessment of his strength, especially when none of those abilities are again anything a clone and summons couldn’t handle. I’ll talk through with you why a clone and summons can take Kisame if you want, but  whether you agree or not, there is no reason for us to believe Kisame was lying or disregard his own words; and even in P2 we again see Konan whose ALs partner be useless against Jiriaya. These characters are just levels apart.



The problem is people are taking character statements quite literally. Have you ever heard of unreliable narrator for instance?

Kisame was quite capable of alone challenging a perfect Jin. Scale it up.


----------



## MSAL (Jan 31, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya won't be able to summon the same level of "will" during the fight if he didn't have to provide the code. Without purpose he wouldn't have done it.


Fair point.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 31, 2019)

Ziggy Will Literally Lie My Ass Off Stardust said:


> Been gone awhile. Wasn't sure if you'd actually replied. Only come back to see notifications with your avi talking about another topic. Might be a little late. But you seem to have backed down the fervour of your point and refuse to answer questions regarding the surrounding context.



You asking questions about context is not relevant to my point. I'm not interested in dealing with multiple layers of double standards. This specific double standard is enough.



> So it's pretty obvious you knew you were wrong and just decided to continue out of stubbornness. Either that or you really are as stupid as make out.



It's pretty obvious you're just a troll. My point has never changed.



> As someone confused by the words "forced comparison" - p.s - a comparison that is by nature _forced. _One that doesn't work by a technical or thematic standpoint.



The confusion stem from you're use of the words. Of course those words are actual words, but they don't really mean anything.



> And alas - Kabuto wasn't making eye contact with Itachi.



The art disagrees.





> Jiriaya was. Everything - logic, recurring themes and even the scans you presented point to this fact. So a special pat on the back for debunking your own point and getting confused in the face of simple lexicon usage. True Congrats.



Hey thanks man, but this relentless cyber diarrhea of your doesn't change the facts.

This - 

Is the same as this - 



> Cute.



Not as cute as your desperation.



> Oh... Did I ever label it an official logical fallacy? Does it not compute if no official logical fallacy is cited? Does your programming not understand the use of two words "forced" and "comparison" employed as a rhetorical jibe to summarise what you're arguing? Let's make it easier. "Forced" - something produced or maintained with unnatural effort. "Comparison" - an estimation of the similarities of two inferences.



Well it's good to know that like everything else you post this is just *pulled out of your ass*.

The two panels are simply a comparison - 



> A good example - claiming Kabuto and Jiriaya are the same in making eye contact with Itachi... while one certainly isn't and the other certainly is.



The art would indicate otherwise.



> The _Official fallacy_ it's closest too is a *false equivalence*.





This is not a fallacy of inconsistency. I am not using an anecdotal similarity to establish an unrelated trait. We are comparing the art to determine if they indicate the same thing.



> But it shouldn't even take and idiot (and god knows your among those ranks) to understand that.



Just following your lead homie.



> This is the reason why this discussion is so surreal. It isn't even a question of disagreements over the Naruto lore. You are butchering logic on a level so elementary that maintaining a coherent dialogue is impossible. I'm not kidding when I say that a *chatbot* could outperform you in many of the points you've tried countering. And the same goes for your sub AI level sense of humour :



Zigmund, please stay focused on the topic at hand. I can appreciate that you're a lifetime troll fueled by your hardness for Itachi, but you don't have to keep proving it every post.



> If that's your new premise.... than goodnight.



Always been the premise.



> Concession accepted. Kabuto wasn't making eye contact with Itachi.



Except when he is.



> The imputes for a successful genjutsu land wasn't present... and they're only looking at _each other. _If you didn't already know - _looking at each other_ - is not necessarily the same as making _eye contact_. As Sakura proves here  :



Didn't you bring up the false equivalence fallacy?

Holy fuck lol



> She's looking at Itachi, just not the portion of Itachi that are his eyes.



Holy shit.

Keep posting these please. Keep posting all the panels where *Kishi goes out of his way to show people avoiding eye contact*.

Amazing how they look nothing like the panels in question yet in your mind are the same.

But these panels ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.





I fucking love it.



> Kabuto can indeed be looking at 95% of Itachi. Likewise his eyes might no be included in that equation though. Don't try and pretend these backpedling prefaces aren't soft concessions.  And It's obvious why you're back-pedalling.



Backpedling? 

Are you having a delusional episode?



> Having supported the wrong stance for several posts, debunking your own point with manga scans and pretending not to understand two words in simple english. But concession accepted, I suppose. Being the poorly coded chatbot you are.



Oh, you are having a delusional episode.

Nevermind.



> You see my argument is actaully supported by themes in Naruto especially when it comes to conundrum of Itachi's sharingan-stare. If we look at those themes and surrounding context it's even more obvious why Kabuto was avoiding eye contact, while Jman wasn't. Obviously you know this as you refuse to address these important contextual tidbits calming not to care about them instead :



Oh here we go with the context double standard.

Yes I know, context only matters in relation to matters concerning Itachi. You've said this many time already. I get it, you're a walking, talking double standard.



> Of course, you don't care for the context. The context debunks your point.



My point is you're a walking, talking double standard. Context doesn't debunk that at all.

I mean the fact that you only care about context when it suits your purpose kinda proves it.



> The cutest part is that you're trying to deny having a stake in protecting Jiraiya's namesake. (he gets one-shotted by Itachi btw)



[HASHTAG]#exposed[/HASHTAG]!



> Very convincing. Very convincing indeed. Perhaps another time you'll pretend not to know what a forced comparison is.... oops.



I apologize, I didn't receive my copy of "Ziggy Stardusts bullshits and nonsense" dictionary. 

*



			Wisdom of Shin
		
Click to expand...

*


> : _Unless Kabuto looks like this _
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> _he can't be avoiding Itachi's gaze_


_
_
Yeah it's crazy to actually expect the art to represent what the author is attempting to convey visually.



> It begs the question. Where is Jiraiya's blindfold in that case?



He's got a forehead protector.

NEXT



> OK, I admit. I nearly stopped here. This was almost just too much ridiculousness to handle. I kinda want to try to be nice to you. but it becomes hard when:
> 
> 1. You start throwing out unfunny non sequiturs.



Hey, that's a real logical fallacy.

Congrats, you just leveled up!



> 2. Your series of rebuttals have been among the worst performances in NF history



Unfortunately I had to scale down to my opponent. He's some hard for emo Itachitard who will literally say anything he can to defend his prince...

...oh shit it's *YOU*



> But just for fun. I'll explain - again - why Kabuto might want to take extra precautions while engaging in any kind of physical confutation with Itachi and Sasuke.



He wasn't engaging with them yet.

Theme and perspective.



> For one, the real trick behind Kabuto cloaking his entire body, as Sasuke eventually realises,  by  and then gather sage energy. The second is that merely looking away while conversing is much harder than looking away while fighting. Itachi can indeed force the eye contact he needs via taijutsu or a with the domineering pimp-hand of Susanoo. But there's not a single reason to assume that Kabuto would be careless before the fight commences.



He's shown being careless before the fight  starts.

You thinking what should be contrary to what is stated and shown is the definition of fanboyism. He is shown looking at Itachi pre-fight.

Move along.



> I do know theme and perspective. Which is why I know that if Kabuto was taking extreme measures to avoid eye contact while in combat, he's also taking some measures to avoid eye contact any other time the sharingan is active.



He did take extreme measure, in combat, as was shown.

Just not pre-combat.



> With Jiriaya this contextual point isn't articulated anywhere. And is blatantly contradicted by not warning Naruto to avoid Itachi's eyes. _Theme and perspective_ also tells me that Itachi can cast genjutsu before the combat commences; such as with Deidara :



Itachi can cast genjutsu anytime. The point is, now pay attention, this is a theme and perspective area now, that there are points pre fight that neither side will take actions that they logically should were they in a fight. 

Of course I understand that you will only apply this to Itachi.....



> Which is why people tend to avoid Itachi's eyes *even before the fighting starts*




Except when they don't.





> So once again. Every contextual cross-reference - recurring themes and perspective - support my premise and debunks yours.



No lol.

You may only be concerned with theme and perspective that suits your purpose, but that doesn't mean it fails to exist when it doesn't.



> Which I come com equipped manga panels that help my argument while all you have to fall back on is a Jiriaya induced boner.



SO HARD FOR EMO


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 31, 2019)

MSAL said:


> If we are being honest real death > any technique bar sealing probably.



I agree.



> It would depend upon the mental trauma caused, and even if he was able to still defend himself afterward, he would be disorientated and on the back foot. When Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi he was still able to fight, but he was still clearly effected by it.



I'm sure Jiraiya will be affected.



> He's in better shape than the ones under its effects.



He is, but not in great shape.



> Because it's a jutsu he can control. It's not just an autopilot ohko. He releases it against Kakashi and he releases it a bit later after showing Sasuke what he wanted him to see.



Inside the jutsu. In the real world it lasts a moment regardless. He has never shown to move around while having somebody in it.



> He used Tsukuyomi to get Kabuto to release Edo Tensei



It's just a regular genjutsu, similar to Sasuke's. Pretty sure it's impossible to cast Tsukuyomi at that point considering his Tsukuyomi eye was sealed from Izanami.



> You are implying it. You are comparing two different types of trauma and saying because one is worse than the other than that mean that must happen all the time.



No, I'm saying the ability to overcome a worse trauma should allow him to overcome a lesser one.



> In that case, what if Jiraiya gets his throat slashed? Would he be able to will himself back to life then?



I don't know.



MSAL said:


> That's a very good point. I just looked at the chapter to refresh myself on it, and I wish I had done it earlier. Jiraiya wasn't actually dead and then come back to life. He was losing consciousness which may have resulted in his death, but he was stiil conscious during that last burst. So essentially, he had "life flashing before my eyes" moment and regained enough wiillpower to write the code.
> 
> Not to say iit still wasn't an impressive feat of endurance, but he wasn't literally dead at that point. Good mention, I had forgotten.



Both Pein and Fukusaku were sure Jiraiya was dead. Pein who had a half dozen chakra rods in Jiraiya and Fukusaku who was fused with Jiraiya.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 31, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Or, he wasn't expecting an edo to come knocking on his door through the barrier, which means he never planned for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Well of course he didn’t plan for an Edo escaping his control like Itachi did. But that doesn’t have to do with sensing prowess

2. Which would mean that Itachi Doryoku can be felt even without sensing. 

Even if we say MA/PA can’t sense the exact build up for the technique, based on what your presenting. Can we at least still agree that there is a change in Itachi chakra / pressure when he uses Mangekyo. And as such Ma/Pa, would feel the change in pressure / chakra that Itachi Dojutsu is excuding when he activates Mangekyo, and warn Jiraiya of that Itachj got some serious Doryoku / chakra; maybe Jiraiya himself will even feel it the way Itachi did with Yamata.

3. Yeah and one of the crows was the one implanted with Shisui eye; that’s the crow that castes Genjutsu on Naruto

4. Not sure I understand what you mean; can you clarify?

5. Sick-Itachi isn’t faster then SM-Jiraiya so he isn’t going to clear the smoke screen before Jiraiya can attack him and even if he did Jiraiya could just follow up with a Long-Range Jutsu that would also prompt him to need Susanoo to defend, as he has no other defense against massive AOE techniques like Senpo Gama Yu Endan; Yomi Numa; Water Gun Shot; etc...

6. No but I believe he will achieve SM against Itachi, we can talk through it if you want 

7. I agree Susanoo will likely eventually kill Jiraiya (maybe with Sound Jutsu he could still do something I’m not sure), but that brings us back to what I consider the main question will Susanoo kill Jiraiya before it kills Itachi.

8. Or Itachi just knew that’s Jiraiya couldn’t make any sudden moves and use his full strength while worrying about the kids. Kisame may have also know the same thing. Ultimately nothing you can say changes what happened as Kisame getting in between Jiraiya and Itachi was meaningless; it accomplished nothing and Itachi still had to deal with the first Jutsu Jiraiya used

9. Why would Kisame be an unreliable narrator about his own abilities....

Kisame took on a perfect Jin under highly advantageous circumstances and with the perfect counter to that Jins abilities. When Kisame took on Roshi  under not advantageous circumstances, he struggled despite Roshi being fat weaker then B. That tells us that Kisame performance against B isn’t a good guide to his strength.


----------



## Sapherosth (Jan 31, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Jiraiya didn't overcome shit. He died. The same will happen with Tsukuyomi, he will STILL fucking collapse regardless of how willful he is.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Jan 31, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya didn't overcome shit. He died. The same will happen with Tsukuyomi, he will STILL fucking collapse regardless of how willful he is.



I said that earlier.

Try to keep up.


----------



## MSAL (Feb 1, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm sure Jiraiya will be affected



Opening. That is really where most genjutsu comes into play vs high level opponents. The greatest example of this is Sasuke vs Danzou and Madara vs A$..Genjutsu caught them and gave them openings.



> He is, but not in great shape.



Better than the victim. We can only go on what evidence we have to and formulate from there. Evidence we have points to people caught in Tsukuyomi taking massive mental trauma. The only person to ever break it, was Sasuke, as Itachi said so in the first place.





> Inside the jutsu. In the real world it lasts a moment regardless. He has never shown to move around while having somebody in it.



We will just agree to disagree here





> It's just a regular genjutsu, similar to Sasuke's. Pretty sure it's impossible to cast Tsukuyomi at that point considering his Tsukuyomi eye was sealed from Izanami.



I will concede this point. I remembered him saying he was going to use Tsukuyomi on him early in the battle, but having checked the panels again, it was indeed his left eye given for Izanami. Makes no narrative sense, but that's on the panels.





> No, I'm saying the ability to overcome a worse trauma should allow him to overcome a lesser one.



But you keep truncating the different factors. Do you honestly think Jiraiya could tank that much mental trauma within the time it would take for Itachi to immobilise or kill him?

That premise flies with normal genjutsu for me, but not advanced genjutsu.





> I don't know.



From a slashed throat? That would be some comeback.





> Both Pein and Fukusaku were sure Jiraiya was dead. Pein who had a half dozen chakra rods in Jiraiya and Fukusaku who was fused with Jiraiya.



He wasn't. He was on the verge of death, but not completely dead. I looked again when I read those initial points, just to check.


----------



## MSAL (Feb 1, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Well of course he didn’t plan for an Edo escaping his control like Itachi did. But that doesn’t have to do with sensing prowess



He was clearly not ready or expecting that outcome. That is a pretty big oversight on his part, imo.



> 2. Which would mean that Itachi Doryoku can be felt even without sensing.



I doubt that, but you are missing the reason I compared them. How did they know the signature of the exact techniques, to call them both by name? 

They must've encountered them in some form before



> Even if we say MA/PA can’t sense the exact build up for the technique, based on what your presenting. Can we at least still agree that there is a change in Itachi chakra / pressure when he uses Mangekyo. And as such Ma/Pa, would feel the change in pressure / chakra that Itachi Dojutsu is excuding when he activates Mangekyo, and warn Jiraiya of that Itachj got some serious Doryoku / chakra; maybe Jiraiya himself will even feel it the way Itachi did with Yamata.



I will except that to some degree, but that doesn't mean it can be instantly countered. But read my previous comment.



> 3. Yeah and one of the crows was the one implanted with Shisui eye; that’s the crow that castes Genjutsu on Naruto



I'm not talking about specific, single crows. The crows can manifest into a clone and perform genjutsu. They are summons.



> 4. Not sure I understand what you mean; can you clarify?


 If you are speculating Jiraiya will keep his guard lowered until he sees the MS, that is not very smart for a seasoned warrior. It leaves him immediately susceptible to genjutsu, if Itachi wishes to cast it.



> 5. Sick-Itachi isn’t faster then SM-Jiraiya so he isn’t going to clear the smoke screen before Jiraiya can attack him and even if he did Jiraiya could just follow up with a Long-Range Jutsu that would also prompt him to need Susanoo to defend, as he has no other defense against massive AOE techniques like Senpo Gama Yu Endan; Yomi Numa; Water Gun Shot; etc...



Assuming he gets to SM.  doubt Jiriaya will jump immediately into the smokescreen after throwing it. Then we have the fact that Itachi can use clones there, or, he could potentially use the smokescreen to try and seal Jiraiya.

Itachi can also cast genjutsu on the frogs. That is one way. Or, he can cast Amaterasu, that is another.



> 6. No but I believe he will achieve SM against Itachi, we can talk through it if you want



If you want, but I'm more interested in the why, than the how.



> 7. I agree Susanoo will likely eventually kill Jiraiya (maybe with Sound Jutsu he could still do something I’m not sure), but that brings us back to what I consider the main question will Susanoo kill Jiraiya before it kills Itachi.



Fair enough.



> 8. Or Itachi just knew that’s Jiraiya couldn’t make any sudden moves and use his full strength while worrying about the kids. Kisame may have also know the same thing. Ultimately nothing you can say changes what happened as Kisame getting in between Jiraiya and Itachi was meaningless; it accomplished nothing and Itachi still had to deal with the first Jutsu Jiraiya used



One possibility but still risky. given that Jiraiya was going to attempt to move before Sasuke intervened.



> 9. Why would Kisame be an unreliable narrator about his own abilities....



Why would he not be if he respects the guy's reputation?



> Kisame took on a perfect Jin under highly advantageous circumstances and with the perfect counter to that Jins abilities. When Kisame took on Roshi  under not advantageous circumstances, he struggled despite Roshi being fat weaker then B. That tells us that Kisame performance against B isn’t a good guide to his strength.



I have never heard the exact circumstances of that battle though.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Feb 1, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Opening. That is really where most genjutsu comes into play vs high level opponents. The greatest example of this is Sasuke vs Danzou and Madara vs A$..Genjutsu caught them and gave them openings.



I would agree.




> Better than the victim. We can only go on what evidence we have to and formulate from there. Evidence we have points to people caught in Tsukuyomi taking massive mental trauma. The only person to ever break it, was Sasuke, as Itachi said so in the first place.



Sure.

I am not saying Jiraiya cannot be affected, I am saying he has the willpower to overcome it.




> We will just agree to disagree here



That's fine, but there is 0 evidence of Tsukuyomi ever functioning how you assert.



> I will concede this point. I remembered him saying he was going to use Tsukuyomi on him early in the battle, but having checked the panels again, it was indeed his left eye given for Izanami. Makes no narrative sense, but that's on the panels.



He did not require Tsukuyomi at that point because he put Kabuto in Izanami.




> But you keep truncating the different factors.



No I am not.



> Do you honestly think Jiraiya could tank that much mental trauma within the time it would take for Itachi to immobilise or kill him?



Yes.

Real death >>>> fake death.

Jiraiya came back to life with the presence of mind to still write down a code to help Naruto. This is with physical damage to his body as well.



> That premise flies with normal genjutsu for me, but not advanced genjutsu.



I understand.



> From a slashed throat? That would be some comeback.



Sure.

Again, you are conflating the issue.

I'm not saying Jiraiya will come back to life definitely, just that the willpower required to perform such a feat will assist him against mental trauma.



> He wasn't. He was on the verge of death, but not completely dead. I looked again when I read those initial points, just to check.



Concassé

Two different ninjas - a toad that was fused with Jiraiya, and Nagato, who had chakra rods embedded in Jiraiya, felt Jiraiya was dead.

I don't know about you, but I'm going to say yeah he was dead. If a frog is is literally fused with Jiraiya, and a guy with the Rinnegan who can read and control your chakra via chakra rods. both think he was dead, I'm going with dead.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 1, 2019)

MSAL said:


> He was clearly not ready or expecting that outcome. That is a pretty big oversight on his part, imo.
> .


It's an oversight, but it's an understandable one. Itachi breaking free from his control relied on Koto-Crow; it would be very hard to anticipate an Edo breaking free like that.



> How did they know the signature of the exact techniques, to call them both by name?
> 
> They must've encountered them in some form befor


I wasn't skipping it, I just agreed with you that they already knew what the techniques were, so there was no reason to address it. But i'm not saying that Ma/Pa would know what technique Itachi was going to use; I'm merely saying they'd feel an increase in potency from his Doryoku.



> I will except that to some degree, but that doesn't mean it can be instantly countered. But read my previous comment.


I agree Jiraiya w/o knowledge wouldn't be able to instantly provide the perfect counter. I just think Jiraiya will take defensive precautions in response to the rise of Doryoku from Itachi. Some examples, as I've already cited would be using: clones, smoke-screens to block LOS, or attacking Itachi while he figures out what Dojutsu Techniques Itachi has up his sleeve. 




> I'm not talking about specific, single crows. The crows can manifest into a clone and perform genjutsu. They are summons.


Oh if you mean form into a clone then sure.



> If you are speculating Jiraiya will keep his guard lowered until he sees the MS, that is not very smart for a seasoned warrior. It leaves him immediately susceptible to genjutsu, if Itachi wishes to cast it.


Where did I say Jiraiya would lower his guard?



> Assuming he gets to SM. doubt Jiriaya will jump immediately into the smokescreen after throwing it. Then we have the fact that Itachi can use clones there, or,
> Itachi can also cast genjutsu on the frogs. That is one way. Or, he can cast Amaterasu, that is another.


Well let's play this out. Jiraiya reaches SM; at that point ether:

A) Itachi realizing the threat of SM, activates Mangekyo. At which point I think Jiraiya (or at least MA/PA) feels the rise in Itachi's Doryoku; and the threat it posses. Jiraiya now realizing the threat of MS will use Clones, Smoke-Screen, or attack Itachi with a quick Senpo Technique. If he uses Clones or a Smoke-Screen Itachi won't be able to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu till after he deals with Smoke-Screen or Clones. If he attacks Itachi, then Itachi will likely needs to use Susanoo to defend himself; which brings us back to Susanoo-Itachi vs SM-Jiraiya scenario, which I keep saying it comes down to.

B) If Itachi doesn't activate his MS; then Jiraiya will attack him in SM, and he will quickly be forced to defend with Susanoo. Bringing us again back to SM-Jiraiya vs Susanoo. 



> he could potentially use the smokescreen to try and seal Jiraiya.


Sure which brings us back to SM-Jiraiya vs Susanoo.



> If you want, but I'm more interested in the why, than the how.


If your asking me why I believe he'd achieve SM against Itachi; it's because the author allowed him to achieve it against Nagato/Pain. Someone whose at least in the same "Tier" as healthy Itachi and stronger then "Sick" Itachi. 



> One possibility but still risky. given that Jiraiya was going to attempt to move before Sasuke intervened.


But then Sasuke was in play further complicating the situation and Itachi knew that.



> Why would he not be if he respects the guy's reputation?


I don't see how this makes him an unreliable narrator. Can you expand on this?



> I have never heard the exact circumstances of that battle though.


We know he struggled due to Roshi's Lava Ninjutsu; he states as much. And honestly that's all we need to know, considering Roshi's Lava Ninjutsu is nowhere near the level of B. And we have other statements placing him far bellow Bs level like Itachi believing he'd have a tough time with PI-Kakashi or Kisame's own statements about Jiraiya & Itachi being far out of his league. Even beyond this Kisame even after absorbing Bijuu Chakra from B and having the Topographic advantage of the ocean still looses to Gai; someone who is also inferior to B (Baring 8th-Gate). Combine all of this with the fact that we know B was heavily disadvantaged in that fight; and it's simply not a good way to judge Kisame's strength.


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## MSAL (Feb 1, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I am not saying Jiraiya cannot be affected, I am saying he has the willpower to overcome it.



Okay, lets play this out.

The jutsu or effects?

If its the former, its highly unlikely given it can be over in seconds.

If its the latter, I still don't see him overcoming that before he is dealt with. Even if he can withstand it to some degree, he is then open for an almost immediate follow up.

I just dont see how.




> He did not require Tsukuyomi at that point because he put Kabuto in Izanami.



It could've taken the Amaterasu eye. Was redundant then.

The only reason it would make sense narratively otherwise is if Itachi was misdirecting Kabutos confidence of avoiding genjutsu by lying to him, hence talking directly infront of him.










> Concassé
> 
> Two different ninjas - a toad that was fused with Jiraiya, and Nagato, who had chakra rods embedded in Jiraiya, felt Jiraiya was dead.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I'm going to say yeah he was dead. If a frog is is literally fused with Jiraiya, and a guy with the Rinnegan who can read and control your chakra via chakra rods. both think he was dead, I'm going with dead.


Concassé

He wasn't dead here. He was fading but not dead. Then he had the life flashing moment, then he was up again.

They thought he was dead, but he wasn't. He reasserted his willpower before he died.

Sorry about truncating the rest. Im on my phone and I fel the rest isnt progressing the debate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Feb 1, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Okay, lets play this out.
> 
> The jutsu or effects?
> 
> ...



I'm saying he could withstand the effects.

But ya, let's play this out.

Is there any being in fiction you feel could withstand Tsukuyomi?

Common beings with godlike willpower would be Doctor Doom and Thanos. Would they lose to Tsukuyomi?

Aren't we treading into no limits fallacy territory?




> It could've taken the Amaterasu eye. Was redundant then.
> 
> The only reason it would make sense narratively otherwise is if Itachi was misdirecting Kabutos confidence of avoiding genjutsu by lying to him, hence talking directly infront of him.



I think the point is that while Uchiha can cast regular genjutsu with any eye, the legendary genjutsus require that eye.




> Concassé
> 
> He wasn't dead here. He was fading but not dead. Then he had the life flashing moment, then he was up again.
> 
> ...



And then he died.

You get a ton of off panel stuff that you say he wasn't dead during, but the narrative says he was.

Look, you feel he didn't die, great. Nagato and Fukusaku said he was.

Don't know what to tell you.


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## MSAL (Feb 1, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It's an oversight, but it's an understandable one. Itachi breaking free from his control relied on Koto-Crow; it would be very hard to anticipate an Edo breaking free like that.


  Not just Itachi, other edos. They couldve revealed to others




> I agree Jiraiya w/o knowledge wouldn't be able to instantly provide the perfect counter. I just think Jiraiya will take defensive precautions in response to the rise of Doryoku from Itachi. Some examples, as I've already cited would be using: clones, smoke-screens to block LOS, or attacking Itachi while he figures out what Dojutsu Techniques Itachi has up his sleeve


.

Now this is more .



> Where did I say Jiraiya would lower his guard?



In the previous post you speculated that he was taking no action till he saw MS. Thats lowering guard.


Well let's play this out. Jiraiya reaches SM; at that point ether:



> A) Itachi realizing the threat of SM, activates Mangekyo. At which point I think Jiraiya (or at least MA/PA) feels the rise in Itachi's Doryoku; and the threat it posses. Jiraiya now realizing the threat of MS will use Clones, Smoke-Screen, or attack Itachi with a quick Senpo Technique. If he uses Clones or a Smoke-Screen Itachi won't be able to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu till after he deals with Smoke-Screen or Clones. If he attacks Itachi, then Itachi will likely needs to use Susanoo to defend himself; which brings us back to Susanoo-Itachi vs SM-Jiraiya scenario, which I keep saying it comes down to.


Itachi casts clones and then Jiraiya has killed a clone. So he is now open for a counter. Now what?



> B) If Itachi doesn't activate his MS; then Jiraiya will attack him in SM, and he will quickly be forced to defend with Susanoo. Bringing us again back to SM-Jiraiya vs Susanoo



 He won't not use MS against a sage user.



> If your asking me why I believe he'd achieve SM against Itachi; it's because the author allowed him to achieve it against Nagato/Pain. Someone whose at least in the same "Tier" as healthy Itachi and stronger then "Sick" Itachi


.

No, im asking why you think he'd insta use it.




> But then Sasuke was in play further complicating the situation and Itachi knew that.



He was in play when he used frog stomach. Difference was attention was not on him from anyone.




> I don't see how this makes him an unreliable narrator. Can you expand on this?



Him saying that one statement doesn't mean he wouldnt engage Jiraiya.

Ill leave the rest if the Kisame bit for now.


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## MSAL (Feb 1, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm saying he could withstand the effects.
> 
> But ya, let's play this out.
> 
> ...


 I'll address this later or tmoz if okay. Hate using my phone, lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 1, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Not just Itachi, other edos. They couldve revealed to others


No other Edo that had Chakra Sensing broke free. Even Itachi didn't actually have sensing; he was just lucky enough to be paired with Kabuto who did. 



> In the previous post you speculated that he was taking no action till he saw MS. Thats lowering guard.


I didn't say he would take no action; I said his actions would change when he (or Ma/Pa) felt the power of Itachi's Doryoku after Itachi pulls out Mangekyo



> tachi casts clones and then Jiraiya has killed a clone. So he is now open for a counter. Now what?


If Jiraiya has his own clones out; then Itachi is equally likely to hit a clone with whatever his counter is. 

If their is a smoke-screen on the field Itachi has no way to deliver a counter, as he isn't a sensor.



> He won't not use MS against a sage user.


Okay then we'll stick with option A)



> No, im asking why you think he'd insta use it.


If it's the hall-way scene; he'd be up against two S-Class Criminals from Akatsuki; and organization which he acknowledges has people more troublesome than Orochimaru within it.



> He was in play when he used frog stomach. Difference was attention was not on him from anyone.


Yeah and Jiraiya likely selected Toad Stomach because it was a good Jutsu to force distance between Kisame & Itachi; and himself as well as the kids. If the kids weren't there he may have used a more aggressive attack.



> Him saying that one statement doesn't mean he wouldnt engage Jiraiya.


I agree he would engage Jiraiya if he had to for the sake of his mission. But that's a bravery thing.

I still don't see how Kisame is an unreliable narrator, just because he was brave enough to engage Jiraiya, despite knowing that their was a huge gap between them. We constantly see character engaging enemies they know are way stronger then them


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## ShinAkuma (Feb 1, 2019)

MSAL said:


> I'll address this later or tmoz if okay. Hate using my phone, lol



Yeah no problem.

I'm not trying to "one up" you or prove you wrong. Don't feel any pressure to answer as soon as possible. This is a discussion with some interesting questions. Take your time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MSAL (Feb 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No other Edo that had Chakra Sensing broke free. Even Itachi didn't actually have sensing; he was just lucky enough to be paired with Kabuto who did.



Any one of those edo's could have told an alliance member until they were controlled. Obviously Kabuto doesn't have 24/7 watch on them - perhaps more so when he focuses on a particular battle - otherwise he would've known that Nagato told Itachi. 

In other words, he was cocky enough that he was not aware of that potential weakness. so he is capable of mistakes, he is not infallible.




> I didn't say he would take no action; I said his actions would change when he (or Ma/Pa) felt the power of Itachi's Doryoku after Itachi pulls out Mangekyo



This is what you saiid in post ~#190;



> "4. Jiraiya staring down Itachi in the hall way, was likely just plot set up. But even if we ignore that Itachi only had 3T out and not Mangekyo; *it’s my premise that he will take defensive action in response to the activation of the Mangekyo (the same way Ei did once Sasuke activates Mangekyo, and he wasn’t even a sensor*"



To me that is implying he will stay neutral until he sees the MS, then he will take defensive action.



> If Jiraiya has his own clones out; then Itachi is equally likely to hit a clone with whatever his counter is.



If.

We know which one of them can use clones quicker. Itachi won't just sit insiide a smoke bomb prostrate. He will use that to his advantage as he has demonstrated similar things in the manga, using terrain and environment for his counterattacks.



> If their is a smoke-screen on the field Itachi has no way to deliver a counter, as he isn't a sensor.



He doesn't need to be a sensor to react inside a smoke screen. No high level ninja is going to be taken down by a smoke field. It is a basic ninja defensive support tool, not a match winning offensive one. you can be creative with it, but it isn't gonna be the main factor n taking down a high level shinobi, same as Kawarimi.




> If it's the hall-way scene; he'd be up against two S-Class Criminals from Akatsuki; and organization which he acknowledges has people more troublesome than Orochimaru within it.



What happened to the acknowledgement of the Itachi statement?

_"...No amount of backup will change the outcome.."_




> Yeah and Jiraiya likely selected Toad Stomach because it was a good Jutsu to force distance between Kisame & Itachi; and himself as well as the kids. If the kids weren't there he may have used a more aggressive attack.



It was the right technique to use arguably because they were in a hallway, but that doesn't disguise the fact he allowed himself to be checked by Sasuke's comment and Kisame.  




> agree he would engage Jiraiya if he had to for the sake of his mission. But that's a bravery thing.
> 
> I still don't see how Kisame is an unreliable narrator, just because he was brave enough to engage Jiraiya, despite knowing that their was a huge gap between them. We constantly see character engaging enemies they know are way stronger then them



My point wasn't that. My point was he was belittling his own ability because he respected the reputation of Jiraiya. That doesn't mean he would believe he would categorically lose if he engaged him in combat, or couldn't be of use.


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## MSAL (Feb 2, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm saying he could withstand the effects.



So you think he would take no mental damage at all or would be able to overcome those effects after released? Let's clarify specifically.



> But ya, let's play this out.
> 
> Is there any being in fiction you feel could withstand Tsukuyomi?



That's a bit of a silly question. we are talking about characters within the constraints of Narutoverse not other universes. Please don't use strawmen now. The debate is friendly, let's keep it on track 



> Common beings with godlike willpower would be Doctor Doom and Thanos. Would they lose to Tsukuyomi?
> 
> Aren't we treading into no limits fallacy territory?



See above. W are talking the jutsu within the constraints on the narutoverse, not fiction. The mechanics of the jutsu within the confines of Naruto are what's under discussiion. Obviously they would work differently in different verses.

And no, obviously it wouldn't work against Thanos and Doctor Doom to the degree it would against Naruto characters, though I think Izanami may work, given their personalities.






> I think the point is that while Uchiha can cast regular genjutsu with any eye, the legendary genjutsus require that eye.



Maybe. It still makes no sense given he mentioned Tsukuyomi at the start, but that is a possible solution, perhaps.






> And then he died.
> 
> You get a ton of off panel stuff that you say he wasn't dead during, but the narrative says he was.
> 
> ...



In most manga if someone is dead they will mention or show that earlier. Jiraiya was still conscious when he entered the flashback, but his willpower bought him back from the brink. If we reading it differently, that is fine, but that's the way I read it, having looked back.


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## Turrin (Feb 2, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Any one of those edo's could have told an alliance member until they were controlled. Obviously Kabuto doesn't have 24/7 watch on them - perhaps more so when he focuses on a particular battle - otherwise he would've known that Nagato told Itachi.
> 
> In other words, he was cocky enough that he was not aware of that potential weakness. so he is capable of mistakes, he is not infallible.
> 
> ...


1. Kabuto put basic commands into the Edos that he wasn’t controlling; otherwise many wouldn’t even fight the alliance. One of these commands was likely to not reveal his location. But yes he is capable of mistakes

2. Taking defensive action in response to MS. Doesn’t mean he isn’t taking different defensive action in response to Itachi other abilities

3. Itachi crating his own clones doesn’t change that Jiraiya has his own out preventing Tskuyomi or Amaterasu from clean one shorting him

4. Itachi cant fight effectively in a smoke screen the way Jiraiya can with two sensors and detection barrier.  That’s why it’s more dangerous then a regular smokescreen because Jiraiya isn’t just using it for escape he’s using it to attack the enemy. I also didn’t say Itachi was going to loose to it; I said it will block his attempts to use Tskuyomi and Amaterasu, and give Jiraiya a chance to attack him which will likely lead to him needing Susanoo

5. I do acknowledge it, but only the proper translation of it. The original Japanese always indicates this part was a figure of speech, meant to acknowledge Jiraiya strength not taking specifics into account. Same thing as calling someone a one many army.

6. He said maybe Itachi could do something, but he couldn’t their levels are too far apart. That means he believes he can’t do anything meaningful against Jiraiya. If he’s basing it on rep that’s even worse as that means he can’t do anything against any Sannin; and that rep refers to younger weaker Sannin.


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## ShinAkuma (Feb 2, 2019)

MSAL said:


> So you think he would take no mental damage at all or would be able to overcome those effects after released? Let's clarify specifically.



I think he would be affected but not enough to prevent him from continuing to fight. Like when he lost his arm against the 6POP.

It's not uncommon for characters to endure damage and continue to battle.



> That's a bit of a silly question. we are talking about characters within the constraints of Narutoverse not other universes. Please don't use strawmen now. The debate is friendly, let's keep it on track



This is a totally legit question. I am trying to establish the limits of Tsukuyomi. We have seen that it can be endured (Sasuke) so what level of mental fortitude do you think is needed to overcome it's effects. I gave you two easy options in Dr. Doom and Thanos as they are generally considered to be of exceptional willpower.



> See above. W are talking the jutsu within the constraints on the narutoverse, not fiction.



I'm trying to establish what *you* consider the limits of the jutsu. Pulling characters from other fiction makes that possible.



> The mechanics of the jutsu within the confines of Naruto are what's under discussiion. Obviously they would work differently in different verses.



You can assume they will work exactly the same for the sake of this discussion.



> And no, obviously it wouldn't work against Thanos and Doctor Doom to the degree it would against Naruto characters, though I think Izanami may work, given their personalities.



What degree do you think Tsukuyomi would work on them?



> Maybe. It still makes no sense given he mentioned Tsukuyomi at the start, but that is a possible solution, perhaps.



Tsukuyomi stopped being an option once the fight began due to the precautions Kabuto took. Once Kabuto was locked in Izanami Tsukuyomi would be both redundant and impossible (no left eye) at that point.



> In most manga if someone is dead they will mention or show that earlier. Jiraiya was still conscious when he entered the flashback, but his willpower bought him back from the brink. If we reading it differently, that is fine, but that's the way I read it, having looked back.



There is obviously a narrative component to Jiraiya's death. The flow of events would have lost a bit of impact by stopping the flashback to show Pein and Fukusaku point out Jiraiya is dead, so it was done after the flashback.

However it was *still made clear* Jiraiya *was dead*. So even if you read the scene to think he was just unconscious the narrative specifically pointed out he was dead, probably to avoid any confusion.


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## ThirdRidoku (Feb 4, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Speed of Light = 186,000 miles per second
> 
> Speed of Lightning = 220,000 miles per hour when traveling downwards from a cloud


Point taken, I mistakenly was talking about the lightning return stroke which does in fact travel at one third the speed of light though.


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## Shazam (Feb 5, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Point taken, I mistakenly was talking about the lightning return stroke which does in fact travel at one third the speed of light though.



Yeah either way it's still incredibly fast


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## Shazam (Feb 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *Feats Analysis
> *
> So how can Jiraiya takes these two on and once? And I think the answer is obvious, Jiraiya has shown that when faced with numbers he will use KB to make it 1v1 and that he can at least create one SM-KB (given his chakra he can probably create more easily, but I’ll talk about that in the potential section). So it’s basically going to be *SM-Jiraiya Vs Itachi and KB vs Kisame*.
> 
> ...



I agree here, a lot of folks are having misconceptions


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