# Jutsu vs Jutsu: Shinra Tensei vs Kamui



## Malicious Friday (Mar 15, 2014)

The title is self-explanatory. But, can Shinra Tensei deflect Kamui (Kakashi's Kamui)?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Mar 15, 2014)

Against Obito's right eye: It does nothing.
Against Obito's left eye: It may disperse. Note that Shinra Tensei won't be able to activate again in succession against another Kamui.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## Joakim3 (Mar 15, 2014)

It should technically troll both of them seeing Kamui revolves around essentially building a gravitational wormhole.... and seeing ST revolves around the repulsion of said gravity it really comes down to which gravitational force is stronger

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kai (Mar 15, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> It should technically troll both of them seeing Kamui revolves around essentially building a gravitational wormhole.... and seeing ST revolves around the repulsion of said gravity it really comes down to which gravitational force is stronger


If Obito was actually teleporting into the dimension, then probably.

If Obito uses casual phasing, Shinra Tensei should fail.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 15, 2014)

It's Kakashi's Kamui. I forgot to specify.


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## Rob (Mar 15, 2014)

I like ST more... but... couldn't Kakashi or Obito just Kamui the ST? 

Or would the ST repel the Kamui?


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## Malicious Friday (Mar 15, 2014)

Well... that's the question.


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## Rob (Mar 15, 2014)

I like Nagato more than Kakashi, so we'll say that ST repels Kamui.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## egressmadara (Mar 15, 2014)

I don't think ST's level of gravitational exertion would have an effect on a space-time barrier.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Jagger (Mar 15, 2014)

egressmadara said:


> I don't think ST's level of gravitational exertion would have an effect on a space-time barrier.


Maybe it could or maybe it couldn't. I'm not really sure about it.

Also, it can disturb the user by pushing them away, thus, losing concentration or sight of the target.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

Shinra Tensei would win. There's a reason Kakashi chose not to use it on God Realm.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jizznificent (Mar 15, 2014)

I would not be surprised if ST  could affect kamui but i wouldn't bet on it. 

i don't believe kamui would affect ST either (whether directional, omnidirectional or target specific).

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

Depends on your notion. If you believe Kamui, like other ocular powers, is a collection of chakra recomposed to create the vortex, ST will work effortlessly.

It becomes more complex when you believe Kamui actually summons natural portals not formed by the user. *Formed by the user* is important to note as it highlights the use of the user's chakra being pooled into a certain point. It is similar to Amaterasu in function, but more sophisticated in that the user just needs to visualise a barrier of a certain size.


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## Mercurial (Mar 15, 2014)

By feats Kakashi can warp Nagato's head away before the latter can even react, so it actually doesn't matter.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> By feats Kakashi can warp Nagato's head away before the latter can even react, so it actually doesn't matter.



By feats Kakashi made the conscious decision to not use Kamui on God Realm... or an any Rinnegan user, for that matter.


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## Mercurial (Mar 15, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> By feats Kakashi made the conscious decision to not use Kamui on God Realm... or an any Rinnegan user, for that matter.



I can make you a list of people who could do things but chose to don't do them just because plot. This manga shouldn't even exist as it is, if Kakashi didn't try to lift a giant boulder, but instead crashed it with Chidori (as child Sasuke could do right after he learned the jutsu), Madara wouldn't have found Obito and so on. If Obito used Kamui to capture Naruto and Bee on a casual night, he could have pulled off the Eye of The Moon Plan like nothing. If you want the list of plot hindered actions I can go on and on, but I think we all know most of them...

Also Kakashi powered up since Pain arc.

Also when Obito stopped Kakashi's Kamui on Gedo Mazo's head, Kakashi said that it was impossible, as he thought nothing and no one could stop Kamui, and Kakashi fought Pain, and at that point had full knowledge on Rinnegan. And still he didn't even take on account the fact that Obito could have used Shinra Tensei, Gakido or simply a Rinnegan power to stop his MS jutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> I can make you a list of people who could do things but chose to don't do them just because plot. This manga shouldn't even exist as it is, if Kakashi didn't try to lift a giant boulder, but instead crashed it with Chidori (as child Sasuke could do right after he learned the jutsu), Madara wouldn't have found Obito and so on. If Obito used Kamui to capture Naruto and Bee on a casual night, he could have pulled off the Eye of The Moon Plan like nothing. If you want the list of plot hindered actions I can go on and on, but I think we all know most of them...



That's just a series of excuses you've stringed up without considering the situations you described.

They were all convinced half of Obito's body was crushed, why bother with a Chidori?

Obito tried to sneak up on Naruto on a casual night, he ended up needing to dodge a Rasengan. Not as easy as you describe.



> Also Kakashi powered up since Pain arc.



Since the Pain arc he *still* chose not to use Kamui directly on Rinnegan users. 



> Also when Obito stopped Kakashi's Kamui on Gedo Mazo's head, Kakashi said that it was impossible, as he thought nothing and no one could stop Kamui, and Kakashi fought Pain, and at that point had full knowledge on Rinnegan. And still he didn't even take on account the fact that Obito could have used Shinra Tensei, Gakido or simply a Rinnegan power to stop his MS jutsu.



Kakashi thought Kamui couldn't be _stopped_... he never said about it being repelled. Otherwise he would've been using well timed Kamui against Pain rather than waste chakra on clones and Raikiri. 

He didn't consider the Rinnegan knowledge, maybe because he didn't actually use Kamui on Obito himself?


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## ARGUS (Mar 15, 2014)

ST is actually near instant..... 
so if Obito materialises to warp deva path,,, then if the ST is timed correctly then it will win 

Against kakashis kamui... ST won't win 
It's a vortex from another dimension... I simply don't see how it can repel something that's not even in the real dimension 

Against casual phasing ST would fail against Kamui,,,,

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 15, 2014)

obito kamui>ST>kakashi kamui, and I'm shocked that there is any confusion/debate


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2014)

ST is not instant, if it were, Gai would not be jumping in front of Rinnegan Judara without being splattered instantly. 

The only instant jutsu in this manga is FTG, everything else (including Kamui) is slower than it. 

If we're getting into specifics, Obito completely warped away before V2 Ei could punch him from under 30m, warped Sasuke out from a Jinton attack from under 5m away without Onoki noticing, warped before BM Naruto could blitz him from under 10m (Chakra Arm) and before a blindsiding gated Gai could kick him.

Kakashi warped a redirected Raiton Kunai (kicked by Obito's foot) in under half a second (before it hit Naruto less than 3-5m away), an ST'd nail from under 5m away, KCM Naruto at a pivotal point (pre-being crushed by massive kamui weapon) without Obito noticing, before Minato's kicked armed Rasengan could damage him after making direct contact (it was literally grinding his chest) and before Judara's thrown sphere weapon could reach his body.

Putting ST into those situations- I'm almost certain it would fail in every scenario as far as manifestation time is concerned.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Mar 16, 2014)

If both jutsus met at the same time, yeah. Both are fast enough to take the other out if used first.


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## 311998 (Mar 16, 2014)

People refering to earlier kakashi not using kamui on pein should consider he could attack pein but he choose to save chouji(which made them think that kakashi backed off).
And secondly,he did'nt had the full knowledge of the pein's power. 
So as per kakashi's improvement and efficiency in the war,it would be a peice of cake to just warp nagato's head or most effectively his whole body or his rinnegan.

Kakashi have way more options to counter-attack ST.
Who knows he may be able to easily rest(if exhausted) by warping himself in the kamui dimension.
And one more thing shinra tensai's usage interval increases with its intensity.
So using kamui tthe user just needs to warp an arm or other body part.
Then go into kamui dimension himself and just wait for the opponent to bleed to death


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## LostSelf (Mar 16, 2014)

311998 said:


> People refering to earlier kakashi not using kamui on pein should consider he could attack pein but he choose to save chouji(which made them think that kakashi backed off).
> And secondly,he did'nt had the full knowledge of the pein's power.
> So as per kakashi's improvement and efficiency in the war,it would be a peice of cake to just warp nagato's head or most effectively his whole body or his rinnegan.



I think it's only jutsu vs jutsu, and not what will happen in a fight between Kakashi and Nagato. But going that way, Nagato, being a sensor will always get the upperhand using Shinra Tensei to disrupt/kill kakashi before he fires Kamui. Or uses preta path and absorbs the hole since it should be chakra based, as almost anything in the manga.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

311998 said:


> People refering to earlier kakashi not using kamui on pein should consider he could attack pein but he choose to save chouji(which made them think that kakashi backed off).



You're referring to the wrong Pain in that example.



> And secondly,he did'nt had the full knowledge of the pein's power.
> So as per kakashi's improvement and efficiency in the war,it would be a peice of cake to just warp nagato's head or most effectively his whole body or his rinnegan.



He had knowledge, he figured it out before anyone. He also chose not to use it on other Rinnegan users post-Pain arc.



> Kakashi have way more options to counter-attack ST.
> Who knows he may be able to easily rest(if exhausted) by warping himself in the kamui dimension.
> And one more thing shinra tensai's usage interval increases with its intensity.
> So using kamui tthe user just needs to warp an arm or other body part.
> Then go into kamui dimension himself and just wait for the opponent to bleed to death



Naruto using his base mode, SM and Kurama's chakra shroud illustrated that counter attacking ST is very hard to do... With those powers. Look how many preparations Kakashi needed to do it with more than one person on his side.

ST's usage doesn't increase the interval, that's the reason why Nagato was able to use ST shortly after absorbing Bee's chakra and why God Realm was able to use it several times.

The interval increase you refer to talks about how long the Pain body can take before Nagato uses ST from it again after using CST; that's a Pain Rikudou mechanism not ST.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2014)

> He had knowledge, he figured it out before anyone. He also chose not to use it on other Rinnegan users post-Pain arc.


His village was under attack by an unknown number of ninja, are you suggesting it would have been wise for Kakashi, one of the nation's most capable combatants to deplete his reserves in order to take out a single ninja? 

He did not even trust his Kamui at the time, to him, it was an ongoing experimental technique. 



> Naruto using his base mode, SM and Kurama's chakra shroud illustrated that counter attacking ST is very hard to do... With those powers. Look how many preparations Kakashi needed to do it with more than one person on his side.


What the hell are you talking about? Cloaked Naruto never had an issue with ST, he dodged an initial burst by Nagato and was held in place by BT, the same way Sasuke was by Madara, then grappled and soul ripped.



> ST's usage doesn't increase the interval, that's the reason why Nagato was able to use ST shortly after absorbing Bee's chakra and why God Realm was able to use it several times.


A case can be made that there was clearly a 5 second interval between shroud absorption and the immediate ST afterwards. If you look back, between each ST use in that battle, you could make an argument there was a 5 second interval.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 18, 2014)

Kamui is a jutsu that bends both space and time. By it's very description it's highly unlikely that something such as gravity would stand in it's way.


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## Ashi (Mar 18, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> S*T is actually near instant.*....
> so if Obito materialises to warp deva path,,, then if the ST is timed correctly then it will win
> 
> Against kakashis kamui... ST won't win
> ...



Proof of bold?


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## PwnageBR (Sep 4, 2016)

I don't see Kamui doing anything to ST cause I don't think ST is a solid thing
And I don't see ST doing anything to Kamui cause it is a portal to another dimension

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 4, 2016)

Phasing aspect of Kamui avoids any and all of ST, the long-range type that Kakashi used wouldn't get altered by ST whatsoever until the ST hits Kakashi physically. So in Kakashi's case, ST can alter the trajectory of it indirectly by changing Kakashi's position.

As for which is a better jutsu, ST is will always be second to phasing kamui, since it has a recharge timer whereas both Kakashi/Obito used it subconsciously throughout without needing a recharge or break.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 4, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> ST is actually near instant.....




ST is instant

ST repels any spiritual or physical thing. Long range kamui creates physical space barrier that can be negated. It can negate close range kamui mid-teleport. ST wouldn't affect someone whos phasing because they arent their physically or spiritually but in another dimension.

If obito died and used kamui to come back to the living as a spirit ST could deflect that.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 5, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> Long range kamui creates physical space barrier that can be negated.


It's not a barrier, more like a tear in the fabric of space, I don't think ST would actually affect that at all, in fact, when it hits it, the waves will just carry on through the open space into the other dimension, at least until the ST makes it way to the caster.


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## ARGUS (Sep 5, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> ST is instant


Yeah I know. 
Lol why bring up a 2014 thread

Either way I have a different opinion on this thread now


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## Android (Sep 5, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> By feats Kakashi can warp Nagato's head away before the latter can even react, so it actually doesn't matter.


Classic @Raikiri19 


ARGUS said:


> Either way I have a different opinion on this thread now


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 5, 2016)

According to the databook the barrier variant of kamui would be repelled, destroyed or whatever you wanna call it.

I wonder what shinra tensei can't affect? It's hype/feats pretty much encompasses everything imaginable.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2016)

Malicious Friday said:


> The title is self-explanatory. But, can Shinra Tensei deflect Kamui (Kakashi's Kamui)?



I don't see why not , for me it can . Others will certainly disagree 
A barrier made of chakra can be pushed by gravity ,


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I don't see why not , for me it can . Others will certainly disagree
> A barrier made of chakra can be pushed by gravity ,



 Kaguya couldn't absorb Kamui Raikiri, so I'm inclined to disagree with the notion that the portals formed by Kamui are made by chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2016)

Joakim3 said:


> It should technically troll both of them seeing Kamui revolves around essentially building a gravitational wormhole.... and seeing ST revolves around the repulsion of said gravity it really comes down to which gravitational force is stronger



What he said.

I think this was debated before and general consensus was that ST would troll Kamui. Kamui is sort of like anti gravity and ST is bending the space by using gravitational forces so it depends on which one is the stronger force here. And seeing that ST has some form of ninjutsu dispersing properties, it is likely that it comes out on top.



Lord Aizen said:


> ST is instant



ST can't be instant, gravitational waves travel approximately at the speed of light. But from our/their point of view it wouldn't make much of a difference.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 5, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It's not a barrier, more like a tear in the fabric of space, I don't think ST would actually affect that at all, in fact, when it hits it, the waves will just carry on through the open space into the other dimension, at least until the ST makes it way to the caster.


regular long range kamui is not a tear in the fabric of space. that version of kamui is what sakura and obito used to look through kaguyas dimensions to find sasuke. Those two literally tore a hole in space, you could see other worlds, that allowed them to see other dimensions. Regular long range kamui doesnt do that. It creates the space barrier first like what we saw kakashi use against deidara then kakashi initiates kamui. that barrier that we saw on deidara for minutes can be negated


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 5, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What he said.
> 
> ST can't be instant, gravitational waves travel approximately at the speed of light. But from our/their point of view it wouldn't make much of a difference.



Thats cool I didn't know that.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 5, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> regular long range kamui is not a tear in the fabric of space. that version of kamui is what sakura and obito used to look through kaguyas dimensions to find sasuke. Those two literally tore a hole in space, you could see other worlds, that allowed them to see other dimensions. Regular long range kamui doesnt do that. It creates the space barrier first like what we saw kakashi use against deidara then kakashi initiates kamui. that barrier that we saw on deidara for minutes can be negated



Regular Kamui is a tear in the fabric of space, what Obito/Sakura did was tear a fabric in space to different dimensions (not native to the eyes, like Kamui), which is why it required an insane amount of chakra. Other than that, it's the same...


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## Empathy (Sep 5, 2016)

_Kamui _is suppose to be a barrier, so I think _Shinra Tensei _would work to expand and disperse the confines of the barrier. Something like Preta path I think wouldn't work though, because _Kamui _can be made wide enough so that its boundaries don't touch _Fuujutsu Kyuuin_; the void space in the center of the hole shouldn't be composed of chakra, but its outer ring should be.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Sep 7, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> This manga shouldn't even exist as it is, if Kakashi didn't try to lift a giant boulder, but instead crashed it with Chidori (as child Sasuke could do right after he learned the jutsu), Madara wouldn't have found Obito and so on.




that makes so much sense now that i think about it


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