# OROCHIMARU IS STRONGER THAN ITACHI UCHIHA: AN IN-DEPTH OROCHIMARU ANALYSIS



## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

OROCHIMARU IS STRONGER THAN ITACHI: AN IN-DEPTH OROCHIMARU ANALYSIS PART 1: INTRODUCTION & BACKGROUND

Hi, I'm IzayaOrihara (my Naruto Forums username). I've been reading Narutoforums and Narutobase Forums discussions for years now just to see what people think about certain topics, but for the first time, I'm making my own thread in the history of anime/manga debates about this topic which has bothered me years and won't leave my brain. 

WARNING: This will be a (EXTREMELY) LONG/WALL TEXT thread! If you don't have the mood to read it and basically understand what I have written in this essay, I have the request that you not post, and ignore this IF you don't have anything useful to say!
THANK YOU!

*SPOILERS*
FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT FINISHED READING SHIPPUDEN, DO NOT READ THIS THREAD, BECAUSE THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS UP TILL THE END OF THE MANGA. THIS IS YOUR FINAL WARNING. IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED READING PART II OF NARUTO THEN LEAVE THIS THREWD WHILE YOU STILL CAN. I AM NOT GOING TO BOTHER TO INDICATE WHERE THERE ARE SPOILERS WHEN I POST IMAGES/WRITING. YOU NEED TO HAVE READ UP TO THE END OF THE MANGA TO READ THIS THREAD. FINAL WARNING. 
*SPOILERS*

"Orochimaru-Sama"
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Now I know that this discussion is old but it's been bothering me lately and I want to revive the thread. Basically, I'm saying Orochimaru > Itachi Uchiha so if you're an Itachi fanboy who disagrees for fanboyish reasons and/or a dogmatic kind of person who isn't open minded to new theories then please don't read this. However, if you want to read, then feel free to discuss. I'm going to discuss why I think Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi and look at both sides. Call it an Orochimaru hype/appreciation/whatever thread, but it is what it is. (I don't know if you'll be able to see my scans or not so I'll post links above them just in case)

There are two purposes to this thread
	1.	To provide an in depth analysis of Orochimaru's character (his personality and his abilities, but mainly his abilities) and clear up common misconceptions about it. 
	2.	To state/claim that Orochimaru > Itachi, and explain why using evidence from the manga to prove my points, and rational logic and speculation to make an analysis. 
And like I said, if you are not really interested, or just don't have the mood to read this long essay I'm using to open my thread, don't bother, because to participate in any discussions in this thread you'll need to understand what I've written and the only way of doing that is by engaging yourself and actually wanting to learn about this topic. 

Orochimaru
The Orochimaru I'm talking about in this thread is not what you would call "Current Orochimaru". He has a Zetsu body with Hashirama Senju's cells, and an 'if you want to call it this' improved Edo Tensei. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about "Prime (Healthy) Orochimaru", who is essentially Part I Orochimaru, but with all the feats he showed in Part II (up until when he was sealed away in the Sakegari Jar). His Edo Tensei is reminiscent of that in Part I, as is the chemistry of his body (so no Hashirama cells or anything like that). Basically, the Orochimaru we knew for most of the series.

Itachi Uchiha
On the other hand, the Itachi I'm talking about is the only living form Itachi we have feats for. So Part II Itachi (up until his death at the Uchiha hideout) with Part I feats also. This is not, and I repeat, this is not, "Prime Itachi" or his twin brother, "Healthy Itachi". We do not have feats for any of those characters in Masashi Kishimoto's manga, Naruto (2002 - 2007, Shippuden 2007 - 2015), so they are strictly classed as fan-fiction for the purposes of this thread. They do NOT exist. 

I'll start by saying what I like about Orochimaru's character, some of which may be relevant to his abilities I talk about in this thread, and then later I'll get into an analysis of hype/statements/comparisons/portrayal and then after that, feats/abilities/comparing abilities/misconceptions about both of their abilities. That will make up Part 2 and Part 3 of this essay. Part 4 will explore why Orochimaru lost to Itachi and how he could defeat him given a certain scenario. And then Part 5 and Part 6 will be discussing two certain abilities that will affect the way a battle between Prime Orochimaru (I'll just start calling him Orochimaru since you now know the one I'm taking about) and Itachi Uchiha (not Prime or Healthy, just, Itachi Uchiha. Just Itachi). Part 7 will be my conclusion. Now, to start off with what I like about Orochimaru. 

What do I like the most about Orochimaru? The ambiguity of his strength. We never saw a full power Orochimaru go all out or get pushed to his limits like we saw Jiriaya go all out against the Six Paths of Pain. He was said to have mastered several forbidden Jutsu and let's be real, the only one we ever saw him use was Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei, and even that alone was so powerful, that some characters referred to it as the most powerful ninjutsu in the world. And then he got his Jutsu taken, but still managed to wipe the floor (literally) with Four-Tailed Naruto (who I'll refer to as KN4 in this thread), almost kill Hebi Sasuke, have the upper edge over Jiriaya and Tsunade (and his handicap was even worse during this fight than it was in Shippuden), constantly, throughout their fight, and always remained a feared enemy. It leaves us thinking what he could have done, the people he could have beaten, who, if anyone, would have be able to kill him, how powerful he could have been, the techniques he could have shown. This is why I like characters as such as EMS/Alive Madara (we didn't see his individual MS eye techniques), Sasori (he was reputed to have had possession of 298 powerful puppets, yet how many did we see?), Kakuzu (he stole hearts for basic elements like fire and wind , what if he took Haku or Roshi's hearts for ice or lava, then how powerful would he have become?) and Tsunade (despite her extreme power in battle, she had one showing against Orochimaru/Kabuto where her skills were 'rusty' and one showing against Madara, where she didn't get to shine due to the other kages being present and 90% of the fight being offscreen, as well as Plot/Character induced stupidity affecting her performance as she didn't summon Katsuyu [just like how Naruto forgot to summon Gamabunta against Neji, an issue (PIS/CIS etc) which affected Orochimaru at various points in the manga, through his arrogance & carefree attitude in battle, and I'll explain a little bit more about this later on in this essay])

Orochimaru was a pure villain, and that is why he was and still is the manga's best. He did things on a whim. He had no real reason to destroy Konoha. He just felt like making the whole world dance to his tunes because he felt he had that much influence over it (he was more or less the strongest man alive in part 1). I mean, first they persecuted him, didn't make him Hokage and none of the prodigies he raised in Konoha amounted to anything he wanted them to amount to. It's just, after a certain amount of time, he felt enough was enough, so went to destroy the village on a whim. He could have done so easily when Sasuke resurrected him, but that time, chose not to, and follow Sasuke. This is why I like Orochimaru. He has no real allegiance to anything or anyone (but to himself) and you can't tell sometimes whether he's really a villain or not. He even gave a chance for Kabuto to destroy him (by killing Sasuke, the host body candidate and thus destroying Orochimaru's future). Yet he had so much charisma, that Kabuto wanted to follow him (while Madara was betrayed by Obito who was betrayed by Nagato who was theoretically betrayed by Zetsu who in turn betrayed Madara). 

And even after everything, Orochimaru is still alive. But even when he wasn't around, It was so ironic how Sarutobi's soul ended up in the belly of the death God to suffer for eternity while Orochimaru slumbered in a dream like state for eternity inside Itachi's Totsuka Jar. But their souls are both out now so. Maybe because Oro was a poor orphan who suffered while Hiruzen was partly responsible for the Uchiha massacre due to not having Danzo on a tight leash and just being a useless hokage in general (funny how the longest reigning hokage was useless while the shortest reigning, Tsunade, implemented the medical system before she even left Konoha ages ago, which won Konoha the Second Ninja World War, while we don't know what prime Hiruzen was doing at the time, and also she saved the village from Pain and protected Naruto, the future Hokage and became hokage just to see Naruto through to the end). 

And it's also strange how the major thing that distinguishes Orochimaru from Madara (Part 1 Villain VS Part 2 Villain) is that unlike Madara, it had been implied that there was at least some hope of redemption, as Sarutobi had hope for him, yet while he helped in the war, he still pursued his goals, even after the war, while it was Madara (the guy who we thought would never be redeemed) who acknowledged to Hashirama how he was wrong about it all, shortly before he died, and this is ultimately the reason why Orochimaru is my favourite villain of the series (because it was Oro, then Madara for a short while, but now Oro again). 

Zabuza was evil yet had redeeming qualities even if they didn't change what he did. I understood Oro when he wanted to kill Yahiko and co as kids. He wanted to do it out of love because he didn't want them to go through what he did as an orphan, as any dream he pursued as a result of him losing his parents was persecuted against in his village and how ironic that Yahiko got murdered because he was an orphan who had a dream in his village, to create revolution and peace, and then even more ironic that it was Konoha shinobi that were in the end responsible for putting an end to those dreams (when Nagato changed his ways of seeking peace Naruto defeated him and Obito killed Konan). The backstory of anime/manga antagonists/villains is always something which I find interesting. 

A common misconception is that Orochimaru is arrogant. I'm not going to say much about this. He was arrogant against Hiruzen. That was it. People say he was arrogant against Itachi, but he didn't have knowledge on the Sword of Totsuka. Also, he emerged from Sasuke using his strongest technique. That's like Killer B using his Hachibi form, but being called arrogant, because even then, he had no Intel on his opponent's abilities. Against Jiriaya and Tsunade, Orochimaru wasn't messing around. He was taunting and testing KN4 Naruto, but when push came to shove, he realised that if he got arrogant, he could get killed. He acknowledged that a Bijuu Bomb could kill him, and (literally) pulled out all the stops (Rashomon Gates to stop/slow down/weaken the Bijuu Bomb). He was not arrogant against Itachi or Sasuke. The reason he went easy on them was because he didn't even want to scratch them. What's the point of injuring/killing the body you want to move your soul into? Anyone? No answer? I didn't think so. Because people use this so called 'arrogance' as an excuse anytime there is an Orochimaru VS Itachi (or just anyone) thread. I think what happened back in Part I taught Orochimaru a lesson. He felt he could toy around with Hiruzen the same way he played hide and seek with Genin in the Forest of Death. But when push came to shove, Orochimaru got his ninjutsu taken away. For this reason, he was ruthless in the Sannin fight, and didn't mess around with KN4 Naruto when push came to shove in that battle. It's just a misconception that I want to clear up. Orochimaru developed a God Complex (as Sasuke stated) so it is in his nature to put everyone else below him in status, but this doesn't mean he doesn't take his opponents seriously in battle. Otherwise Jiraiya, Hanzo and to some extent, KN4 Naruto, could have killed Orochimaru if he really was an arrogant person in battle. It's his personality, but not necessarily a characteristic, or a trait that he takes on in all his fights. Arrogant shinobi people don't become Sannin, nominated before people like Jiriaya and Minato to become Hokage, or get scouted for the Akatsuki. Because arrogance gets a ninja killed. If Orochimaru was really so arrogant, he would have been killed a long time ago. No doubt about that. So please keep this in mind as you read on in my post. 

Enough rambling. Now for my post: A detailed in depth Orochimaru analysis. 

Orochimaru is one of Konoha's Legendary Sannin, three powerful Kage level ninja, who survived against Hanzo who was said to be a icon to whole shinobi world, were students to prime Hiruzen, who was hyped to extreme levels and extremely powerful shinobi who were respected like godly figures in Konoha. The purpose of this thread is to prove that Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi. I'm going to talk a lot about his arsenal later on, so I'm gonna go off course a little, but read on if you're interested.

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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

PART 2
HYPE, COMPARISONS & STATEMENTS
Now, first off, Orochimaru > Jiraiya. In The Sannin fight, Orochimaru and Jiraiya were both weakened, and yet Oro won. I don't like this because when we say weakneed what do we really mean. Jiriaya was drugged yet was still able to use a jutsu as powerful as Dōton:'Yomi Numa':

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Yomi Numa is an A Rank technique in the databook. The same goes for Tsunade. She was 'rusty', yes, but could still use stupidly powerful A Rank techniques like god damn Ranshinshō:
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And the thing is Kabuto was able to adapt and find out he needed to move his right leg in order to move his left and and all that. How many ninja in the Narutoverse would be able to adapt to a situation like this? Kabuto, Kakuzu, Orochimaru, Shikamaru? Not any more I can think of. And also, Kabuto could have died here, if he hadn't weakened Tsunade's muscles with chakra scalpel. See what Orochimaru said here:
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"One hit can end your life." And Kabuto acknowledged this. 

Tsunade still had that kind of power, Yet this happened:
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Oro had no arms and no ninjutsu. At all. Zero. Not only Tsunade, but Jiraiya had a clear advantage over his former rival and yet lost here:

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Tsunade would have died if not for Ninpō: Sōzō Saisei, a powerful regeneration technique. And by all means Orochimaru could have dived headfirst, no, Kusanagi first, straight into Jiraiya's neck and sliced his head off. And it would have been so fast that no one wouldn't even have known what'd happened. Orochimaru could have killed this guy easily. And this guy > Itachi. (I'll explain this later on)

Tsunade got her ass whooped too. Also, where it concerns Jiriaya, Orochimaru said he was the superior one of the two. Can't find this scan, but there was a time where Jiraiya said he couldn't bring back his friend, showing inferiority:

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Jiraiya couldn't save his friend for the same reason that Naruto couldn't save Sasuke in part one. He was too damn weak (in comparison to Oro of course, not in general)

Let's take a look at the Hanzo fight: Jiriaya all beaten up but Oro not? :
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And note back in these days Tsunade didn't have Sozo Saisei ....... (see the top left panel):

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....... since the Sannin developed their arsenals (Tsunade's regeneration, Jiraiya's senjutsu, Orochimaru's White snake powers of immortality and regeneration) after they left Konoha, another sign of Orochimaru's superiority at the time of the Hanzo fight even without all of the 'cheats' he developed later on in life such as his regeneration techniques and HEAVILY enhanced body durability. 

Also, Snake > Frog > Slug > Snake as shown in the famous Japanese literature novel Jiraiya Goketsu Monogatari. I believe this statement. Jiraiya has admitted and shown inferiority to Oro and Oro has admitted and shown superiority on his part. Is Tsunade stronger than Orochimaru? The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss that, but Kabuto, who had knowledge on all of Orochimaru's abilities, believed that Tsunade had a Jutsu which could kill Orochimaru, though we don't know what that is, as we didn't get to see, and never will get to see, what that medical technique was capable of: 

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Anytime someone tries to kill Orochimaru, he doesn't care. Bijuu Bombs were getting fired and Kabuto didn't try to save his beloved master then, yet jumped in the way when Tsunade attempted to kill Orochimaru, the man who can stick himself back together, regenerate from, basically anything that isn't an S Rank seal (Shiki Fūjin, Totsuka) or an S Rank AOE (area of effect) technique (like a Bijuu Bomb, C0 et cetera). And yet Tsunade had a Jutsu which was implied to be able to kill the immortal snake. 

Anyway. The relevance of this all? Jiraiya > Itachi (So Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi). I believe so. Itachi said he and Kisame together couldn't take on Jiraiya:

Couldn't find this for some reason so had to look it up online. Sorry no link.... Hope you can see my images. 
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But anyway ...

These words rolled off the tongue of Itachi Uchiha Sama of the legendary Uchiha clan: "Yeah, if we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least, we'd hurt each other badly. And even if I had *more backup*, it probably wouldn't change the outcome." 

Read the underlined bold three times, write it out on paper ten times, and understand it, and then say it to yourself five times. Breathe in the truth and let it warm your mind. This key quote is more or less the foundation of this entire thread. Or at least one of this thread's major foundations. 

Itachi basically said Jiraiya >>> Itachi + Kisame + Even More Akatsuki members ("even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome" - and obviously backup means more Akatsuki), and while Itachi has knowledge on everything he and his colleagues were capable of (save for Pain, and I guess Sasori's true puppet form, though there was hype circling around on what Sasori could do with his hundred puppets anyway, such as taking down an entire country), WHAT DID ITACHI KNOW THAT JIRAIYA WAS CAPABLE OF, in Sage Mode, for example. Did Itachi know the guy had a Fuinjutsu which could seal Amaterasu's Black Flames?: 
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And by the way, if Jiraiya got hit by Amaterasu, he could make a shadow clone that isn't on fire, and make it seal the flames. 
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Or a Genjutsu capable of bypassing his Susano'o's defence?:
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And making Sasuke unable to maintain his Susano'o. 

Since Kabuto did, with a Genjutsu stemming from Orochimaru's power, Jiraiya can use Magen: Gamarinshō to do the same:
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Or speed meaning that Itachi wouldn't even be able land his Genjutsu: Tsukuyomi on him? Because a Rinnegan user with 'CCTV' vision from other bodies couldn't react to this level of speed:
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Interesting. Very interesting. 

But anyway, Jiraiya has so much ability I can talk about, and that's something to discuss another day, but that same Jiraiya (who Pain/Nagato admitted inferiority to) constantly admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. This is another key point in this thread. All the big guns in Akatsuki as such as Itachi and Nagato, admitted they were inferior to Jiraiya, who was of legendary status. And unlike for example, let's say, Hiruzen, he didn't really live up to all the hype he received, yet Jiriaya did, above and beyond. Orochimaru was feared even more throughout the world for his mastery of Kinjutsu and lived up to his hype too, not based on a single epic showing like Jiriaya, but through several fights he had throughout the series where he displayed astonishingly powerful abilities and techniques. And Jiraiya admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. Jiraiya admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. Jiriaya admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. I hope that's sunk in now. 

At first I, I overlooked it. And the scan of Itachi saying Jiraiya can beat what, two, three, four, maybe five Akatsuki members? (Pain can beat 4 Akatsuki, undoubtedly, and said he weaker than Jiraiya). And now I looked back at that statement, I thought, that's ridicuolous (Itachi was in Konoha to warn Danzo of Sasuke, not kill all their best ninja) that Jiraiya can take two Akatsuki, but Jiriaya can take at least Itachi, as he had the capacity to defeat Nagato (someone who is stronger than Itachi, yet said he was legitimately weaker than Jiraiya after he fought him, while Jiraiya in turn, taking into account everything he was capable of, in both Part I and in Part II, admitted inferiority to Orochimaru. Interesting!): 

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In the bottom right panel Pain/Nagato admits inferior tin power to Jiriaya, and as proved constantly by my scans above, Jiraiya is and has admitted that he is weaker than Orochimaru, a fact that many overlook despite how Kishimoto has tried to nail the fact into our brains. He says, "We Would Never Have Won". So not, slightly inferior, but very inferior. And that same Jiraiya is weaker than Orochimaru. See my point?

Also, I used to think is it so ridiculous that one Sannin can beat two Akatsuki, but HOWEVER now that I've re thunk, maybe a Sannin can beat two Akatsuki it because Jiriaya can defeat Hidan and Kakuzu and I know Orochimaru can kill Deidara and Sasori. At the same time. How they go about that, I'm not discussing in this OP. I'll discuss those fights later if anyone wants to challenge my belief and feel free to do so. That's what these forums are about. Being open to new ideas and theories and having debates about topics like this. 

***                                                  Read this twice                                                              ***
ITACHI HAD NO REASON TO LIE TO KISAME. Yes, he had a purpose to be in Konoha which was to warn Danzo off Sasuke but why does that change his original statement? Maybe he meant something like "we together are weaker than Jiraiya so Kisame let's not even take a chance since my reason for being here is to warn Danzo, not to captive Naruto, since we have no needs to run into our deaths in a battle against ONE OF THE SANNIN anyway.' See what I'm getting at?
***              And make sure you understand this before you continue reading              ***

But I hinder let wouldn't be surprised if when Itachi said he was weaker than someone, people ignored it. But if a weakened, sealed Orochimaru says he's weaker than Itachi people take it at face value (and I'll touch on this later in this essay post). It just amazes me how deluded people are about Itachi's 'power level' or whatever you wanna call it. 

I've also heard some people say this: 'Kisame doesn't know Jiraiya is stronger than him or a that Sannin is stronger than him as he's never fought one' - stop - Kisame probably made that statement based on things he saw Orochimaru do while they were in Akatsuki together. And note that Kisame needed to absorb Bee's chakra just to deal with him in V2. Yet Orochimaru toyed with V2 Naruto (KN4) and basically spanked him:

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Here we have Oro fodderising a V2 Nine Tails Jinchuriki

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And here we have Kisame getting fodderised by a V2 Eight Tails Jin. 
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(And note Kurama >>>>>>>>> Gyuki. I'll explain this somewhere just below here):

So that validates my point about Orochimaru >>> Kisame since Kisame needed to buff himself up with Hachibi chakra to deal with something similar to what a sick-weakened-practically jutsuless-not physically but soulfully armless-"my host body is giving up on me" Orochimaru easily dealt with. And Oro fought a miniature Nine Tails: With his Jutsu Gogyo Fuin would've soloed the fight. And Jiraiya >> Kisame. These words came from Kisame's own g̶i̶l̶l̶s̶ mouth. And yes, I know Killer B got defeated, but due to PIS/CIS in panel number 5. He should have quickly done Version 2 Bijuudama beam (while he had the chance, but I guess Kisame is just > Killer B). You do realise how high up that's puts Orochimaru in terms of his strength, or 'power level'. The fact that Orochimaru is stronger than a perfect Jinchuriki. Yagura was one too, and Orochimaru was stronger than him. And I'll explain why this is true later on. 

And the full '50%' Nine Tails > Two/Three/Four/Five/Six/Seven Tails together. 
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... so see the difference between the Nine Tails which Oro fodderised a portion of and the Eight Tails which Kisame could barely handle a portion of? The Kisame who Itachi
himself for his strength at various points in the manga such as this:

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Based on the look on Itachi's face, he was shocked that someone actually managed to put down Kisame. And for the record, the Eight Tails could barely handle the Five Tails or Four Tails, which 50% Kurama handled easily along with five other Bijuu. Reread the first few chapters of the Tobi VS Naruto, Kakashi etc fight if you don't believe me. Plus, Hebi Sasuke defeated Itachi. Taka Sasuke, who is better than Hebi Sasuke, barely had a draw against Killer B, who got whitewashed by Kisame, someone clearly inferior to Orochimaru. I know this puts Kisame above Itachi, but has it ever been implied Itachi was better, or was it just assumed. Kisame was called a Tailless Tailed Beast, and Itachi was never put on such a level. Itachi may have looked better in Part I, but in Part II, Itahci struggled against Hebi Sasuke, and a stronger Sasuke, plus Suigetsu, Karin and Jugo were equal to or weaker than Killer B, who is weaker than Kisame, who is fodder to Jiraiya, who is not as powerful as Orochimaru. I know it sounds weird to even imply that Kisame > Itachi, but I'm just taking the mama for what it is and analysing what you, I and Kishimoto all saw as were read the manga that he wrote & drew. I mean, Kisame had such raw strength and had Samehada, which allowed him never to tire in battle, sort of like Tsunade and Orochimaru when they're in a fight. And Hashirama too. Whereas Itachi has a narrow skill set. Due to a match up, Itachi would beat Kisame, but think about it. Look at the scans from the manga and think it over, and you can get:
Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Full Power Kisame > The Zetsu Copy Version Of Kisame That Killer B Fought > Killer B = Raikage = MS Sasuke > Taka Sasuke + All Of Team Taka > Taka Sasuke On His Own > Hebi Sasuke = Or > Itachi. One can argue that Itachi's illness affected him more in Part II, but in Part I, Itachi wasn't so much better that he would move from the bottom of that food-chain I just stated, all the way to the top, let alone half way. I thought it was silly too, but i reread what parts of the manga I needed to and analysed it and this is what I got. And I don't see any of this inference as fallible. 

So at the end of the day, what we end up with is Orochimaru > Jiraiya = Itachi & Kisame & who knows maybe even another Akatsuki pair. (Itachi said they'd each other to the afterlife if they fought, and note that Itachi had no knowledge on Jiraiya but hype. Did he know what Sage Mode Jiraiya was capable of? No. But Jiraiya knew nothing of the Mangekyo Sharingan so that balances it out and equalises the equation so anyway, the point still stands that a guy inferior to Orochimaru is like a God when compared to someone like Itachi, whose best feats were defeating an immobile Orochimaru and a sick, "I need a new host body so I'm not even going to attempt to fight or kill you", version of Orochimaru. Think about this paragraph carefully. Prime, or Part I Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi > Immobile Or Sick/No Intent To Even Harm Itachi Orochimaru. I think that's fair. Because the Orochimaru we saw beat Jiraiya in the Sannin fight was weaker than the Orochimaru that fought KN4 Naruto, but stronger than the ones Itachi or Sasuke fought. I think that's why it's difficult to gauge Oro's power. He's like Obito. Every time we saw him fight, he had a different power level.  

	⁃	Now Assuming Part I Orochimaru had his Part II abiltiies, unlike Part II Oro, whose Part I abilities got taken away, we get this: 
		Part I Oro > Part II Oro > Oro when he fought Itachi or Sasuke. And this:
		Part I Oro > Jiraiya > Part II Oro > Itachi > Oro when he fought an Uchiha. 
I put "Part II Oro" from the KN4 battle above Itachi because EMS Sasuke admitted Hebi Sasuke only won due to Orochimaru being sealed, and that if he wasn't sick, Sasuke would have lost, and if Orochimaru had all his Jutsu, Sasuke would have been stomped. Itachi is on the same level as "Part II Orochimaru" so out Itachi above or below him at your expense. But that doesn't change the fact Itachi is flat out weaker than Part I, or "Prime Orochimaru" since Itahci is inferior to Jiraiya. 

Now back to Nagato, Jiraiya admitted inferiority to Orochimaru yet felt confident in confronting and beating someone that he knew possessed the Rinnegan, an eye stronger than anything Itachi could ever have possessed, which further enforces the fact that Itachi was weaker than Jiraiya, along with the fact Itachi said from his own mouth that Jiraiya was more or less equal to or stronger than four Akatsuki members, and then Jiraiya in turn admitted inferiority to Orochimaru which puts a Prime Oro above that many Akatsuki members (I'll talk about this more later). I'm going to keep repeating this (Oro > Jiraiya > Itachi) so that I don't lose sight of where this thread is supposed to be going. And also, Nagato felt the same way. Can Orochimaru defeat Nagato, yes! Something I'll discuss in depth later on. 

Oro > Hiruzen. Self explanatory really. Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest Gokage of his time and the strongest Hokage ever. The latter statement? False. Hashirama > Hiruzen. However, the former statement, possibly, no, likely, no, definitely true. Come on now. Take a look here. The Gokage got trolled by Guruguru, who Hiruzen countered without much difficulty. 

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Buddha stomps. 

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Mei's chakra exhausted. The Gokage were fully resorted by Tsunade before they arrived on the battlefield:
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The last time someone exhausted The Fifth Mizukage of chakra, it was Edo Madara's Susano'o class wood clones that she was fighting. 

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Their chakra was spent after this attack. 

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Mei could barely muster up the chakra to use Suiton ... After fighting Madara. 

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Mei was overpowered by a statue canonically on the same level as 5 Susano'o's, and since it was stated in the DB that Madara has a better Susano'o than Itachi, collectively, those Susano'o' clones that overpowered Mei were stronger than Itachi (the guy inside the Susano'o's, clones of Madara, are better than Itachi, undoubtedly, if even weak ass Hebi Sasuke is better than Itachi). Yet Hiurzen, who is WAAAAAAY weaker than Orochimaru (I'll explain this later on) countered the statue's strongest attack, showing Hiruzen >>> Gokage. Old Hiruzen was too weak to make clones. And due to infinite chakra as an Edo Zombie, Edo Hiruzen essentially = Prime Hiruzen (just like Edo Itachi is = to the imaginary Prime/Healthy Itachi), so this may invalidate my point, but no it doesn't, because even still, Orochimaru is stronger than Prime Hiruzen, but I'll explain this a few paragraphs below so bare with me. 
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And then Orochimaru ONE-SHOTTED the summoner of said statue. And Oro has a lot of techniques more dangerous than that one. This alone proves Oro > Sarutobi > Gokage (Minus Tsunade, as she was healing others, not fighting, because if she were there, things would have been different as she is close to Orochimaru in level. Katusyu would have dealt with the Buddha, proves my point.) This feat alone speaks volumes about Orochimaru's strength as he trolled someone that overpowered the Five Kage. A 'holding back/playing around' Edo Madara was what it took to do this the last time this happened, showing Buddha + Guruguru's strength (Buddha is a part of Guruguru's strength). And Orochimaru has so much in his arsenal that Gurguru (whose =/> Gokage) isn't even an opponent worth his time, because Curse Mark is nothing compared to some of the other stuff that Oro can pull out from his sleeve). I know that this was Edo Hiruzen (unlimited chakra, made 4 clones while alive, old Hiruzen struggles to make 2), and this is essentially what prime Hiruzen would be like, but if Hiruzen was alive, but in that same state, it doesn't change the fact that he's still <<<<< than the Orochimaru I'm talking about in this thread. It was said prime Sarutobi would beat Oro, but they (Saru & Enma) still didn't know the full capacity of Orochimaru's abilities so you can call it like this: Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen > Edo Hiruzen > Old Alive Hiruzen > Gokage. That makes Orochimaru stronger than Bijuu in a sense. I mean, bash me if I'm wrong, but Orochimaru trolled the Fourth Kazekage, who in turn trolled Shukaku on a daily/weekly basis: I was unable to track this scan down, but basically what was said was that Yondaime Kazekage used to beat Shukaku easily by mixing Gold Dust into his Sand Body to make him heavy and weigh him down, then seal it after. Orochimaru trolled Hiruzen won should canonically be able to troll Raikage, who wrestled with Hachibi at 5AM almost every morning before he went to the gym: Link removed
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Hiruzen was Hokage and the strongest Gokage at the same time that both of these were Raikage's:
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These two Raikage's plus a few other Jōnin could match the Hachibi in strength. Karin (the series' most accurate sensory nin) said V1 Raikage had Bijuu level chakra:
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(Raikage's chakra capacity in V2 speed mode would be higher, and yet this same Raikage was said to be weaker than Tsunade, someone who could barely give a Sealed Orochimaru the time of day. Raikage is fodder to Orochimaru. The same Raikage gave MS Sasuke a run for his money. That same Sasuke is stronger than Taka Sasuke who is stronger than Hebi Sasuke, the guy who defeated Itachi. He didn't strike the finishing blow, but he outlasted him in battle, which counts as a win, because Sasuke at the end of the day was the last man standing. Sasuke said he wouldn't be able to defeat a healthy, prime Orochimaru, which reinforces everything I said in this little paragraph)

And also Third Raikage was at the same level as current Fourth Raikage. And due to having Hiruzen as a barrier, Orochimaru is canonically stronger than them. MS Sasuke was better than Itachi, as he had full eyesight, more stamina, higher chakra reserves, more speed, better Katon & Amaterasu (though his Genjutsu and lack of Tsukuyomi made him inferior in that area, but anyway). And look what the Raikage did to him:
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And Orochimaru >>>>> Raikage. Also, on a bad hair day, Orochimaru trolled Tsunade and then tanked her punches like they were nothing (and this is when & after she broke her fear of blood phobia, so was at this point no longer 'rusty' or 'out of practice' in terms of her abilities ), whose punches > Raikage's punches according to Madara. 
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And Madara has a Rinnegan layered over an Eternal Mangekyo layered over years of experience in battle, so is accurate when he makes statements like this. 

I want to bring some attention to this scan. Madara says, Tsunade is slower than the Raikage. Many people say Tsunade is slow but do you know how fast Raikage is? If you're slower than the Raikage you could still be as fast as Lee or V2 Killer B, people canonically slower than Ā. Entirely relevant, but I just wanted people to realise that. 

Back on course though, punches are pretty much Raikage's whole arsenal while Tsunade has Medical Ninjutsu, Katsuyu etc, so canonically, Sealed Orochimaru (from the Sannin fight) is better than the Raikage, who in turn is equal to or stronger than Killer B, when he debuted in the manga. Also, Orochimaru > Kisame, who defeated B:
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And this was a fake Kisame. Weaker than the original. By power and by practice of Kisame's abilities. And Orochimaru > Jiraiya >>>>>>>>>> The real Kisame, so Orochimaru is canonically stronger than the Hachibi.

Orochimaru defeated a Nine Tails Jinchuriki (or came close to doing so):
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And Orochimaru said "Play time is over". He wasn't even going all out. Both in and against his will. He was holding back of his own will because he could have used White Snake, Yamata, and God knows what, but didn't. He was also holding out against his will because he was handicapped and didn't have the full capacity of his abilities. And he had to flee the battle early due to his body giving up on him (it was close to the transfer time):
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His time was up. People say he ran out chakra. False. His body ran out of 'soul juice' (does that even make sense):
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(And note Jiraiya got his ass handed to him by KN4 Naruto, which enforces further how Jiraiya is inferior to Orochimaru, along with statements that were made and offscreen battles that were shown which he were told the results of):

Scan of KN4 beating Jiraiya. The same KN4 fought in level against a severely handicapped Orochimaru that was holding back. Turn it the other way round. If Orochimaru had Edo Tensei (Orochimaru can summon a guy who has a power that suppresses Bijuu Chakra, easily) , Yamata, Gogyo Fuin (which has sealed Kurama's chakra before), Curse Mark, White Snake, Manda, Aoda, Giant Snake Trio, Twin Giant Snakes, Tanzaku Town Snake, Three Forest Of Death Snakes, Kusanagi no Tsurugi: Longsword of the Sky (what he used on Hiruzen) and used all of this in the fight, how do you think KN4 Naruto (that smacked Jiraiya like a child) would have fared?

I'm not a 'no limits fallacy' kinda' guy, but when has Orochimaru ever run out, or even come close to running out of chakra. We saw people of similar power like Jiraiya and Tsunade (she has stupidly massive chakra reserves, just see the Madara VS Gokage fight or Pain's attack on the village) run out of chakra. But not Orochimaru (who can spam A Rank and S Rank Jutsu like there's no tomorrow). And Orochimaru himself said he experimented on his body to increase the following: strength, durability, stamina, flexibility, speed etc. Read the bold. What was Kishimoto trying to tell us I wonder? I'm not saying he has infinite chakra, but based on the fact that not only could he use Oral Rebirth three times easily (Sasuke used it once and his chakra reserves plummeted, the guy who inherited Indra Ōtsutsuki's chakra), but he could also incite fear into his opponents with his chakra. Read this: and I'll talk about this more later on) and the fact he's as powerful as he is able to frequently summon high level giant eummons (some bigger than Bijuu) and like his rival Jiraiya, frequently use B, A and S Rank technique, shows that he has a lot of chakra, definitely one of the highest reserve pools in the series. He was stated to have 'powerful chakra'. The same was never said for people like Tsunade who have monstrous chakra reserves. She has more than the Raikage, who has bijuu level chakra, yet Tsunade was exhausted in the Sannin fight until she regenerated with Sozo Saisei and built new cells which would help so lowly replenish her reserves, yet Orochimaru didn't tire out in the whole fight. 

And has a summon (or, an 'Edo') that is canonically stronger than any bijuu:
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This man can suppress any Bijuu's chakra. From Deidara (Ichibi) and Kisame (Yonbi, Hachibi) to Hidan & Kakuzu (Nibi), each Akatsuki had a way of easily beating a Jinchuriki/Bijuu (in Deidara's case, he fought the actual Bijuu, Kakuzu fought both Jinchuriki and then Bijuu) so i guess Edo Shodai is Orochimaru's way of dealing with a Bijuu, or maybe Manda is (have heaps of analysis on this in Part 3 of this essay). And Yamato said his prowess (which sealed KN4 Naruto) didn't even compare to that of Orochimaru's summon, the Shodai Hokage (see how Oro VS KN4 could have gone?):
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There's a common misconception that Oro's Edo's are weaker. It's not their abilities that are weaker, it's the personalities that are suppressed. I'll explain this later on. 

Orochimaru is also canonically > Hiruzen who is canonically > Yagura (a Gokage of Hiruzen's time) a perfect Jinchuriki like Bee. Deidara soloed the Sanbi:
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And Orochimaru is canonically > Sasori > Deidara. Also, Orochimaru > Itachi > Deidara. And also, Orochimaru (remember the Oro I'm talking about) > Hebi Sasuke > Deidara (Hebi Sasuke was also > Itachi). And Deidara > Sanbi. Manda > Gamabunta, who gave Shukaku a run for his money. Orochimaru > Manda (I'll explain this later). Orochimaru is also > Kisame, who potentially defeated the Yonbi:
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Kisame referred to the Yonbi then said the Jinchuriki as a whole was strong, so it is likely that Kisame defeated the Yonbi. 

I mean, look at the countless high tier characters I'm mentioning. How does Itachi fare against all these Jinchuriki/bijuu (I mentioned all but four of them, because the Goubi, Rokubi and Nanabi were never talked about / shown in canon before the war arc, but I can talk about the Nibi) and Kage, all of which are canonically and logically inferior to Orochimaru. I know Itachi beat Orochimaru twice but I'll talk about this later. I've mentioned how many bijuu? Ah! Orochimaru > Hidan + Kakuzu (logically, but I can discuss this match up later if you want me to) > Nibi (they defeated it in canon):
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And they defeated it easily by the looks of it. People who together are weaker than Orochimaru. (Orochimaru >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shikamaru OR Kakashi, both of who are >>> Hidan. Also, Orochimaru > Kakashi + Naruto + Yamato + Chōji + Ino who are = or > than Kakuzu. Canonically. The guy who defeated Prime Kakuzu, Hashirama Senju, is one of Orochimaru's summons, as I stated above. Orochimaru is >> Matatabi, canonically. 

If you put aside those embarrassing (and illegitimate on Itachi's part) wins over Orochimaru (where Oro was severely handicapped), you can see that based on canon, Orochimaru is actually stronger than Itachi. 

Now people say Oro was weak, but who did Madara kill in the war, or out of the Gokage (not trolling by the way)? Zero, yet Orochimaru killed two Gokage in one afternoon. Gaara Sr. (Forgot his name - 4th Kazekage Who defeated Shukaku):
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Could only find this on google images. Roughly what was stated was that Yondaime Kazekage would use his Gold dust to mix with Shukakus sand and weigh him down, proving a perfect counter to a whole bijuu. You can look it up if you know where the full scan is. And this is what Orochimaru reduced the guy to:
Couldn't find the scan ... Again, so this is the anime version.  Exactly the same but just in colour. 
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Read first two sentences. 
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And the Gaara that = Rasa <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Orochimaru was capable of this: 
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Worth nothing in terms of canonicity, but this is how the anime depicted the 'fight' (or 'murder')
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I'm sure Oro could have won this easily. Call me a fanboy, but he defeated Hiurzen and used all but three techniques in the fight: Edo Tensei, Sen'ei Jashu, Kusanagi (not even a Jutsu, and how he used it here was lame in comparison to his part two feats with kusangi, which make the part one feats seem mediocre. Same goes for Sen'ei Jashu [he has Sen'ei Tajashu and even bigger versions of that like when he fought with Hiurzen in the war against the God tree's branches, and plus there's the ten thousand snakes river he spat at Kn4 Naruto, then His Edo Tensei also got better upon his revival, and that is three techniques out of several seals, curses, Summonings, regeneration, immortality and transformation techniques]) so Orochimaru in reality is >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hiruzen who in turn based on hype and showings is >>> Rasa (ah, that's his name!). And note Rasa = Gaara, the guy who blocked Amaterasu and used the same sand to clash evenly with V2 Susano'o, so think about that the next time you want to say that Itachi > Orochimaru.

You can say it was an off screen fight but the guy didn't get out his robes, showing Oro was either good enough to sneak attack him and his two guards alone (no one was implied to have helped, although in the anime it was showed the sound 5 were there, but this is false, as it is non canon, while the black and white version of the above scan is, and it was said Orochimaru, and Orochimaru alone, defeated the Kazekage, not anyone else) or the guy simply underestimated Oro and just went down in a quick fight. Regardless, it doesn't take away from the fear because Oro > Sasori (he felt comfortable to fight him maybe with or maybe without Kabuto, in a weakened state) who was in turn > 3rd Kazekage, who was stated to be Sunagakure's strongest ever Kazekage, and his ability wasn't too different to the 4th's (It was Sasori who amplified it with poisons) so it is possible that Gaara's dad was the second best Kazekage until Gaara matched/surpassed him (but that's just my speculation). And Oro was stronger than Hiurzen, the strongest Gokage, among Rasa (Bijuu troller), 3rd or 4th Raikage, Yagura (perfect Jinchuriki like Killer B [Mei Terumi became Mizukage during the Part I - Part II time-skip), and Ōnoki. Is Itachi honestly better than all of these people? Because at the end of the day, Orochimaru is canonically stronger than so many kages (2 Raikage's, 2 Mizukages, 2 Kazekages and 1 Tsuchikage) because he was stronger than Hiruzen, and stronger than so many bijuu/Jinchuriki (Gaara, Yugito, Matatabi, Isobu, Roshi, Son Goku, Killer B, Gyuki, Naruto, Kyuubi) because he was stronger than everyone in Akatsuki (because he was stronger than Jiraiya, who defeated Pain). Take a look at all the bolded names. You ask yourself. Is Itachi stronger than all of those people? (People that were almost worthless in comparison to someone as powerful as Orochimaru). 

But moving on anyway. 

Also, Orochimaru was considered before Minato for the position of Hokage. Oro is more powerful, but doesn't have the Will of Fire. That is why Minato was chosen. And yeah I said Oro > Minato. Probably nothing you haven't heard an Oro fan say before and I'll discuss Oro vs Minato after my opening posts if anyone wants to. (Lol come at me). (Personally, besides Shiki Fūjin, I believe Minato hasn't shown feats to compete with Orochimaru). A scan that proves the bold/underlined. 
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Read what Itachi says: "It's not that if you become the Hokage everyone will acknowledge you. It is the ones who are acknowledged that can become Hokage." Orochimaru wasn't acknowledged by his peers because he was an evil man who was discovered to torture young children and play with people's bodies to discover the secrets to immortality, which he achieved in the end. Who would want a guy like that for hokage. None. Whereas, Minato was reputed to be handsome, which makes him likeable because even if Sasuke was more evil than Orochimaru, fan girls in Konoha like Sakura would still vote him as hokage. Ino would too. And Minato loved his village and wanted to do anything to protect it. That's what makes a good hokage. Not raw power, otherwise Madara Uchiha would have become the Second Hokage, not Tobirama Senju. Madara was clearly superior to Tobirama in power, but however, inferior in ideals. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is, don't take the fact that Minato became hokage and falsely/wrongly/stupidly/obliviously/incorrectly/illiterately translate that into Minato > Orochimaru, because, apart from Hiruzen/Anko's statements (which I am going to address after the next two paragraphs), nothing in Masashi Kishimoto's manga suggests that Minato > Orochimaru. In fact, Kishimoto has suggested otherwise up to date. Look at the following panels in this scan below:
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Minato refers to Orochimaru as 'Orochiimaru-San'" showing he respects Orochimaru as an equal to his teacher, Jiraiya, who I (based solely on feats, and a little bit on the Sannin hype) feel that Minato his inferior to, as Minato (canonically feat-wise) cannot defeat Pain while Jiraiya can. Orochimaru > Minato and nothing suggests otherwise if you talk about feats and correct some of the illogical/invalid/manga-chronologically outdated statements that were made. And yes, Minato does underestimate Orochimaru as shown in the scan (as does Hiruzen in Part I ... the old fool ...).

Couldn't find the scan so just look at this Naruto Wiki scan (Narutopedia is primarily sourced by Databook info. It's for those, like me, who can't get their hands on a DB):
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Back to the Gokage, it's just that we have Mei (Lava/Steam release user, one of the best water release users up there with Kisame, Tobirama etc), Ōnoki (Jinton hax, able to hold back meteors, has the ability to one-shot MS Sasuke), Rasa/Gaara (can counter Amaterasu) and Ā (> or = Killer B, a perfect Jinchuriki). And Orochimaru is canonically tiers above them, yet everyone wants to believe that Itachi with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu + 3 MS techs is way stronger than a full power (essentially Part I Oro, as he had Part II abilities but just didn't show, same as Jiriaya not showing Sage Mode) Orochimaru. I just can't accept that. Now I want to address Minato's standing in terms to Orochimaru's power level properly now. Here, Hiruzen implied/Ank suggested that Yondaime Hokage (who almost got killed by 15/16 year old Obito) could defeat Orochimaru:
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However, Hiruzen was oblivious and didn't know about Edo Tensei. 
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He wasn't too surprised because he knew of the techniques existence for, his teacher, Tobirama, and knew his student, Orochimaru was obsessed with Kinjutsu and put two and two together to make four, but still, the point still stands as Hiruzen had no knowledge of Oro's Edo Tensei and what he could have done with Edo Tensei (he could have summoned anyone. Hiruzen knew it was Shodai, Nidaime and Yondaime after seeing the numbers Ichi, Ni and Yon [1, 2 & 4] on those coffins) prior to making that personally biased statement (as he was in the village with Minato, fought the kyuubi with Minato, and knew Jiriaya who knew everything about Minato's abilities and had to consider all of his abilities before selecting him as hokage, and yes, he did the same with Oro, but Oro got a lot more techniques after he left Konoha, and Hiurzen hadn't seem him for around 14-18 years [Oro left Konoha some time between when Minato came Hokage and maybe 2 years after the Kyuubi disaster in Konoha). Look how much stronger Naruto got from age 12 - 18? Bad example, yes, as Naruto has been receiving power up handouts since birth, but Orochimaru was a serious genius who actually wanted all of the Jutsu in the world. That statement was outdated on Hiruzen's part (face it, if Orochimaru had been a sourpuss the minute that Minato became Hokage means that it was 18 years before part 1 that he left Konoha, and in that time, he would have gotten so much stronger). A guy once used this argument against me to say that Hiurzen knew that Oro had gotten stronger before making the statement. No. Stronger doesn't mean "Hey Anko, Oro probably has  mastered Edo Tensei, the so said strongest Jutsu in the whole wide world and can bring back Hashirama, Tibirama and maybe even Minato himself, the guy who I'm hyping, and I bet he has an immortality technique and take people's bodies and can transform into an 8 headed White regenerating on version of Manda and I bet he's perfected his cursed seals, knows Gogyo Fuin (which Oro said would be difficult for another Sannin to use or know how to counter - Link removed[see the bottom right panel]) etc etc etc. Anko/Hiruzen's statement invalid as Hiruzen hasn't seen his disciples fight/seen their powers for what neared 20 years. And even so, Orochimaru was considered for the hokage post before Minato. Konoha Oro, Minato can defeat, but post-Konoha Oro, no way, not after he created a village, developed immortality, mastered his Juinjutsu (cursed seals) apparently created forbidden Jutsu and possibly may have even captured a bijuu (Five, Six or Seven Tails) during his time the Akatsuki with Sasori,mand did so much that Kisame was led to believe he would not be able to beat a Sannin just based off what he saw Orochimaru do [off panel obviously as it was in the past, before part 1], and just assumed Jiraiya was of a similar calibre, which he is in fact). At the end, choose your belief, but I believe Orochimaru > Minato, based of feats, and not based off illogically & also chronologically invalid/ outdated (by decades) hype. I can discuss Orochimaru VS Minato later. 

And Hiruzen certainly did not know about Oro's White snake powers (which includes Oral Rebirth, Gathering of the Snakes [when he stuck himself back together with snakes], White Snake Form (who can produce a colourless, odourless paralytic poison gas to surprise opponents and prepare them for death), Fushi Tensei (body steal) and Yamata No Jutsu), as they are powers Oro got in his time away from Konoha (just like Jiraiya developed Senjutsu and Tsunade developed Regeneration [Sōzō Saisei and Byakugo Mode] and Ranshinshō [Orochimaru worked out its mechanics but didn't act as if he had seen it before, otherwise he would be like, "I see", he'd be like, "Oh, that"]). And Orochimaru even stated he entered Akatsuki to develop his forbidden Jutsu without interruption, as Akatsuki wouldn't mind, and actually wanted Oro to become strong as that strength would contribute to Akatsuki's overall power. 

So those powers (White Snake abilities and Edo Tensei) obviously we're not taken into account of Oro's power level when Hiurzen and Anko made these statements/suggestions that Minato > Oro. 

Not sure if I've said this earlier on in this post or after, but Orochimaru was 1st candidate for the position of Yondaime Hokage (Jiraiya was 2nd) while Minato was 3rd:
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Hiruzen was one of the most hyped characters in the series. Prime Hiruzen also had even more serious volumes of hype, and Monkey King: Enma, said Prime Hiruzen was what it would have taken to defeat Orochimaru. - The Oro that used Sen'ei Jashi, Kusanagi and Edo Tensei in the fight, not the Oro that also had the following: Gogyo Fuin, Cursed Seals, Kuchiyose: Rashōmon, Manda (and a plethora of other snake summons), Yamata (so overpowered) and the White Snake (overpowered). Orochimaru was so much better. So you see what I'm getting at. The scan I posted earlier said Minato was stronger than an Orochimaru that had none of the White Snake Powers of Edo Tensei. And here's the scan of Enma saying Prime Hiruzen (who was compared to Minato, Hashirama, Gokage) was what it would have took to beat a 'holding back to the extreme' Orochimaru:
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Bit different from what was said in the anime, that a 10 years younger Sarutobi could have defeated Orochimaru, but the meaning is virtually the same. 

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And a scan of Orochimaru acknowledging this by saying it was too late (as in Sarutobi was too late in age [as age increases, strength decreases, when a ninja exits their prime, something Oro could avoid by using the bodies of fit 16/17 year olds + experimentation to have a physical condition so good he could tank stupidly powerful attacks, dodge usually impossible to evadable attacks, gain high speed levels]) for Hiruzen to do anything. 

And by the way, I'm not sure what you take of this, but these are scans of Oro taking down so called Prime Hiruzen and Enma + 2 ANBU agents.: 
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Canonically, Prime Hiruzen (+ Enma) And 2 ANBU Guards << Jōnin Orochimaru (who had nothing noteworthy to a Kage level shinobi at his point besides Manda, which he clearly didn't use here) He repelled them with a slicing fuuton technique or some thing which knocked down Hiruzen, decommissioned Enma and instantly killed two members of the ANBU, who would have been Jōnin elites in order to serve as the Hokage's bodyguards. He got white snake powers and Edo and other hax after he left Konoha. This is the Orochimaru that Hiruzen said Minato could beat, not the more recent Oro from 20 odd years after this happened. Pathetic what Hiruzen said when you look at it this way. 20 years? 14 years? I don't know. Ask Kishi, but that's still double the time it took Naruto to jump from throwing Shuriken to throwing Sage Art: Super Ultra Mega Planetary Bijuudama Rasenshurikens so consider how much Oro could have developed in that timeframes to surpass Minato, because I honestly think that based on showings, Jiraiya could beat Minato (he never used Sage Mode while alive and didn't have 50% of the Kyuubi, and almost called killed by 16 year old Obito, while Jiraiya was said to be stronger than f*cking Pain), and Minato respected him as a superior ninja, so I don't know why my statement would be false. It probably isn't. Minato is overrated in my opinion. And lets face it, the attack that killed Minato would do nothing, and I mean nothing to Orochimaru:

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Since he tanked this (he survived the stab, but couldn't counter the sealing. That's why he lost):

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He laughed it off until he got sealed. 
And by no means is Itachi > Minato (While Itachi was canonically defeated by Hebi Sasuke, Minato dealt with the Kyuubi a little and gave Obito a run for his money, the same Obito that saved MS Sasuke's ass, and MS Sasuke > Itachi [the one I'm talking about, not the fanfic ones like prime or healthy Itachi]). Keep that in mind as you read on.

Also, Orochimaru was slated as a threat to EMS Sasuke, who at the time was a nerfed version of alive Madara, who was the God of shinobi's equal, the god of shinobi who was impressed at Orochimaru along with his brighter on two separate occasions. Take a look at the scans:

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Suigetsu says, 'You cannot make Orochimaru come back', insinuating Orochimaru would be a threat to Team Taka, even when there were three of them outnumbering Orochimaru, even when knowing what Sasuke was capable of. He saw a less capable Sasuke battle Gokages at the Kage summit yet knew a full powered Oro may be able to defeat Sasuke. With EMS. Sasuke said, 'You're underestimating Orochimaru too much', even though he said to him even when they fought, 'All your Jutsu are useless against me'. However, Sasuke reevaluated and realised the Oro he barely defeated(let's be real, Oro had Sasuke down [with his paralysis poison], and could have bitten his head off, but tried to take his body, resulting in his loss) was bedridden, ill, lacking proper ninjutsu (only able to use snakes and Rashomon, which required no hand seals, but not able to summon better snakes, Edo Tensei, Gogyo Fuin, curse Mark and more, which he did need hand seals for) and needed a new host (the whole point of Oro using curse Mark on Sasuke and Kimimaro was to prepare them to be his container and house his soul/chakra [In Naruto they are virtually the same thing] so Gen'yumaru, Oro's host at the time, didn't have a seal, and couldn't contain all of Orochimaru's chakra reserves [SO WITH A BETTER HOST HIS PERFORMANCE AGAINST KN4 NARUTO, EVEN WITH SEALED ARMS WOULD HAVE BEEN OUTSTANDINGLY BETTER] and this is why the body gave up on him, and why he said having Sasuke or Kimi's body would have lasted him a whole lifetime. So had Oro taken let's say Kimimaro's body, had his arms, been healthy, he would have swatted Sasuke like an irrelevant fly) and those factors limited his performance to a massive extent. The point of this thread isn't to say Orochimaru =/> EMS Sasuke but the prospect of it isn't impossible. And can Alive Itachi (Not the Edo one that basically had EMS as his chakra was infinite and so was his eyesight for some apparent reason until he used Izanami), (Alive Itachi, not the imaginary Healthy Itachi or his twin brother Prime Itachi, neither of which have actual feats, I mean the only Itachi we ever saw in the manga) beat EMS Sasuke in an all out, no PIS/CIS/Plot&Talk No Jutsu fight? The answer is up to you. Feel free to discuss it as a side topic in this thread. Me personally? I don't see Itachi winning that fight, from my personal perspective, since Hebi Sasuke outlasted him to his death. Overall, how is this relevant? Orochimaru > (He has more knowledge and experience than Sasuke so he would win the fight) > EMS Sasuke > MS Sasuke > Hebi Sasuke >/= Alive Part 2 Itachi. Beg to differ? 

A common, annoying idea is that, Orochimaru was a strong guy but in part 2 so many guys (exhibit A, Akatsuki) on the same level of him or above were introduced. I don't like this. Why is Orochimaru not highly superior to Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, Kisame, Konan, Hidan and slightly superior to Itachi and on the same tier as Pain/Nagato? Because he's underrated because if you read between the lines and took it like into account you'd realise that Orochimaru can take anyone in Akatsuki. Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Nagato > rest of Akatsuki, canonically. Seems hard and confusing to take in at first, but once you've read my whole essay you'll believe it, unless you've been infected with the dangerous 'Itachi-is-the-strongest-Naruto-character' syndrome, which is harder to cure than cancer. And I'm not making a joke when I make that statement. Because in reality it's true. People forgot Orochimaru's unsurpassed performance in part 1 of the series (Killing Hiruzen who is stronger than current Gokage, armless Oro beating 'armed (no matter how drugged or rusty)' Jiraiya and Tsunade, and there is a pun with 'armed' as a ninja's weapon is ninjutsu. It's like me with no gun beating two people that have rusty guns. That makes me superior doesn't it. And people just compare the Part 2 Oro that fought Naruto to Deidara for example, and yes, they are comparable, but not an Oro that has all his Jutsu that require hand seals (snake summoning, five elements seal, curse Mark, Edo Tensei) and pinnacle white snake powers (do you realise how cheat the white snake is with its un-counter-able poisons, body stealing unless you have Sharingan and Yamata which can regenerate and was taken down by extreme hax - Totsuka blade) To Akatsuki members. Moving on now.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

PART 3
FEATS & ABILITIES

Now yes, Oro suffered some embarrassing losses, but half the time his body was failing him, or he didn't have arms, or he was dying. Literally, but yet he had the edge over Jiraiya and Tsunade constantly, toyed with KN4 Naruto, almost killed Sasuke while on his death bed (Oro wanted his body, but if he didn't, when the Poisons paralysed him he couldn't have bitten his head off and killed him, but Itachiites and Oro haters fail to consider this to this very day) and defeated Hiurzen.  Despite the disadvantages he had in many of his fights, he only fought top tiers (Kage, Sannin jinchuriki, Uchiha) and was always a feared opponent in battle. 

Now to look more at fights

Orochimaru & Kabuto Vs Jiraiya, Tsunade, Naruto & Shizune
Talked about this already. Oro has worse weakness. Still had upper edge even though it was two Sannin and two Jōnin (Naruto was Jōnin level at the time) vs one Sannin and one Jōnin, and even when the boss summons came out, Oro still had the edge. He defeated Jiriaya and could have killed him, but went for Naruto, who he could have killed, but was stopped by Tsunade, who he also could have killed, had she not used Will of Fire to get up, repel Orochimaru with a kick, and use Sōzō Saisei. Manda could have eaten Tsunade and Katsuyu for breakfast, and could have eaten Jiraiya and Bunta for lunch, but they each saved each other and their respective summon. Well at least he got to eat a C0 blast from Deidara for his dinner �� though it was a 'poisonous meal' for him ��

Orochimaru Vs The Third Hokage: Hiruzen Sarutobi
Talked about this above. 

Orochimaru Vs Itachi
This is the main subject so I'm going to discuss this later in this OP. And I'll also discuss Sasuke and Orochimaru's fight.  

Orochimaru VS KN4 Naruto
The main fight I want to talk about besides the Itachi fights. He was able to regenerate from anything Naruto had, and pretty much handed his ass to him. Oro's body failed him. If it didn't, he could have reeled himself in with Kusanagi and used Gogyo Fuin to seal the Kyuubi's chakra away and then Kusanagi Naruto in the head or the heart. Oro went easy on people because he had no motive to kill them.  He needed Naruto alive to take down Akatsuki for him and never wanted to kill Itachi or Sasuke, he wanted their bodies, and as for Jiriaya and Tsunade, despite everything, they were his friends:
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He said here, "Tsunade, I wasn't trying to kill you" blah blah stay out of my way so I can kill the Jinchuriki ... He still cared for his old friends. This is why he didn't murder Jiraiya when he had the easiest chance to. 
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And he was playing with Hiurzen. He wanted to psychologically torture him. He did want t kill him, but only did last minut  when Hiruzen almost killed him. Had Orochimaru gone all out against all his opponents, he could have killed them.  Had he been at full power in his second half part 1 and all part 2 fights, he would have raped his opponents before doing so. Yet Hiurzen, J Man, Tsuna, Naruto, Sasuke And Itachi were at full power (Jira/Tsu covered from poison/blood phobia and 'rustiness' [Tsuna] by the time boss summons came out yet Oro never got his arms back ...) were going for the kill. But anyway, I've talked about this.

Now let's look at his Jutsu shall we?

	⁃	Chakra Capacity
Extremely powerful chakra capacity. Bijuu level if you ask me (based on the comparisons I made in Part 2 of my essay) Look at when he met Kakashi and fought Hiurzen:
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Pay attention to the bottom panel. Orochimaru's chakra (as well as Hiruzen's) could crack stone in the surrounding areas. In fact his chakra was powerful enough to incite fear into his foes (Sakki [Killing Intent]):
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Sasuke had to pain himself to escape it. It's identical to Genjutsu but is lower than that, yet look how powerful it is. It's just a general skill even Zabuza had it. It's an innate quality one is born with or develops at a young age. 
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Some say Sakki is useless, but anything that can render Kakashi redundant in a battle is anything but useless
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Kakashi was sweating in each panel. The same Kakashi that showed no fear for the following: Kakuzu, Deidara, Itachi (In Part I), Kisame (In Part I), Pain (feared, but to a lesser extent, not to the same point where he felt he couldn't even give Orochimaru the time of day in battle)

	⁃	Taijutsu
Not his best area, yet matched Sharingan Sasuke: 
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Not bad feat if you ask me, seeing as Sharingan predicts and copies movements. 
	⁃	Speed:
Just look at the above scan. Orochimaru is too fast to be hit by Totsuka. It's best feats are hitting an immobile Orochimaru and an immobile Edo Nagato. 
	⁃	Strength
Snake touches KN4 and disintegrates. Orochimaru touches it and he's fine. And he isn't a shinobi that's strong because he had the logo of a clan on his back or was the son/grandson of a Kage or inherited a kekkei genkai or special abilities or because he injected Senju cells up his nostrils. (Tsunade was a Senju who used Hashirama's Chaka enhanced strength to get to where she's at now. This is why I like Jiriaya, Oro, Sasori, Kakuzu etc, they were regular people yet got to the top tiers through, research, hard work, determination, strong will, intelligence, not people like Naruto or Sasuke that inherited Dojutsu or had the strongest bijuu sealed into them). And note that anyone can strengthen their body with chakra. It's just that Tsunade/Sakura can do it on such a high level. If Orochimaru used it, he'd be even better, and clearly didn't here, as he was sealed at this time:
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	⁃	Stamina
Orochimaru wasn't human anymore. He experimented on himself to get more speed, strength, stamina etc. Raikage level possibly. Likely above. 
	⁃	Durability 
Tanked slap from KN1 Naruto. Laughed off having his arm ripped off, being bisected by the waist, disintegration, Tsunade's punches (which means people like the Raikage have zero chance of taking him down):
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Tanked a Nine Tails' kitty scratch ... (Look at the size of the chakra paw. Look at it.)
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Slapped kilometres away ...
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He comes back ...
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Only his face mask was damaged, just like when he tanked Tsunade's punch. 
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Arm gets torn off ...
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Oral Rebirth. 
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Disintegration means naught. 
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Good speed. Escaped KN4 via Oral Rebirth, slithered away, turned around, and came back, in all but 3 panels. 
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Could touch with his fist something that would disintegrate a snake, showing resistant to extreme heat, and he tanked a katon from Sasuke, so Itachi's Katon means nothing. 
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Got cut in half ...
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Stuck himself back together and moved on with his life. 
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Orochimaru tanked Tsunade's punch. 
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Oro got back on his feet and slithered away. 

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Then got up and carried on with his life

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Still laughing like the punch was nothing. 

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And Tsunade's Punches > Raikage's Punches

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Because Even When Made Heavier / Faster By Ōnoki, Ā was useless, and could only put a dent in the Susano'o Ribcage yet Tsunade came and shattered that Ribcage (Madara Ribcage >>>>>> Itachi/Sasuke Ribcage, canonically proven, and Raikage bypassed Sasuke's Ribcage with the basic version of the attack) with no power but her own, and Orochimaru tanked that same strength like it was nothing. Now, where does this all actually fit in? Raikage-Sama?
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It was stated in the Databooks that Sasuke and Itachi's Susano'o are equal in durability and <<<<<<<< Madara's in durability, evidence by how Ā sliced through it like a hot knife through butter that was never put in the fridge, with his Raiton Chop, but couldn't do anything to Madara's Ribcage even when he was made even faster and even heavier by Ōnoki. And Orochimaru tanked Tsunade, among other things. What do we end up with?

Orochimaru's Durability >>> Tsunade's Strength >>>>>> Raikage's Strength When Made Heavier AND Faster By Ōnoki >> Raikage's Strength When Made Just Heavier OR Just Faster By Ōnoki >> Raikage's Strength Normally >>>>>> The Durability Of Itachi And Sasuke's Ribcages. 

So punches from Susano'o do nothing. And based on the KN4 fight, sword slices and pierces (provided pierces aren't from Totsuka) are useless, and since Orochimaru has a diamond cutting blade which sent KN4 flying through a forest, it will easily bypass any Susano'o defence that isn't Yata Mirror. See why Orochimaru is a threat to EMS Sasuke? Susano'o is virtually redundant in a fight against Oro. Danzo sorted it with Fuuton. Orochimaru has fuuton too but no Baku so ignore that, but if he summons 10000 snakes with Kusanagi and sends them straight into Susano'o's back and blows Fuuton: Daitoppa at the same time, he will break it. Or he just skips all the extra stuff and just burrows under it. Or better still, he can have boss snakes create a diversion then use the former method. It will work against Itachi and be very successful. People need to consider what the opposition can do (and this goes for all Itachi Vs (Substitute In Random Ninja) threads) and not just the hax Itachi has, because when you look at both sides, like I have here, because I suggested that boss snakes can create diversion and fight Susano'o while Orochimaru pulls of his plan, you can see a more believable outcome. Moving along now. 

Lord Orochimaru tanked the blast of a bijuu bomb (from KN4, yes, and slowed down/weakened by the Rashomon gates, but this doesn't subtract from the feat as that would have vaporized any regular human:
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	⁃	Kenjutsu
Fought off the masterful staff fighting skills of Hiruzen with the Kusanagi, which can cut diamond (is Itachi's Susano'o harder than diamond???) and with blunt force sent  KN4 flying through a forest across into a mountain range like you can see in the scan above. And look at this):
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The blade can keep following so Itachi can't exactly dodge it can he? Itachi's counter? Susano'o, the Jutsu that exhausts his chakra reserves, stamina, eye sight and life force? Yeah, that one.
	⁃	Genjutsu
He has a 5 in Genjutsu in the data book. He was going to 'kai' out of Itachi's paralysis Genjutsu (the whole point is to paralyse, yet it failed to do this to oro). He can also use a paralysis Jutsu through what seems to be his Sakki. His Sakki incites fear into opponents messing up their minds yet when he uses a seal he can stop an opponent in their tracks. Funny how he has such good feats here yet Sakki isn't even Genjutsu. It's a general skill. And the paralysis is a ninjutsu. He can break out of Itachi's Genjutsu. Orochimaru barely had feats and was top tier for Genjutsu. He has a 5 in the Databooks. Who knows what he was capable of. 
	⁃	Ninjutsu
This was Orochimaru's best area. We'll look into each category individually. 


	⁃	Summoning: Rashōmon Gates
This is a summoning that needed to be talked about all on its own. Orochimaru's Rashomon is underrated due to this:
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Sakon & Ukon's got dented by Kiba's Garouga. Yet, look at Orochimaru's Rashomon:
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Much bigger and much sturdier than the one Sakon & Ukon used. Compare Sakon's Rashōmon to him. Read the chapters before KN4 VS Oro. The trees in Tenchi Bridge area are taller than this gate. Yet Orochimaru's, which tower over those trees are even bigger than mountain ranges. Just like Hashirama's ones:
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You think this would get dented by Garouga? No? Thought so. And just for the record, to break these respective attacks, it took this:
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Itachi doesn't have an attack near this level, let alone near this:

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Orochimaru only ever summoned those three. Hashirama summoned those and two others. Orochimaru can use Triple Rashomon. What if he used Double Rashomon after that. Hell, we don't know how many Rashomon gates there are. Sakon, Orochimaru and Hashirama summoned them, and all had their gates damaged. It's possible that there could he hundreds of gate lying around in some place like Mount Myoboku. Just a theory of mine, but, the defence wouldn't be so great if it was a one time, two time thing. Just saying. It was called 'Lord Orochimaru's ultimate defence' by Sakon. 'Ultimate defence' was also used to refer to the following: Gaara's sand, which can be spammed for defence, Susano'o in general, which can also be spammed by defence and 3rd Raikage's body of iron with blood of steel, which can also again, be spammed for defence. I'm not saying Orochimaru has endless supply of Rashomon, but would the prospect would be so impossible? He and Sasuke had an endless supply of Snakes, just like Tenten had an endless supply of Ninja Tools and Jiraiya had an endless supply of Toads. Just think about it. 

The databook says something along the lines of this, "The First Gate takes the attack head on, The Second Gate reduces the attacks power and The Third Gate disperses the pressure, completely protecting the user from harm". Of course this isn't what happened during its showing, but it would be no limits fallacy if it could tank anything, and bijuu bombs aren't normal attacks the average ninja comes across every other day. Perhaps Rashomon does do this, but has a limit, and can be overpowered by an attack too strong to be contained, like a Bijuu bomb. Also, the lack of hand seals (just bite fingers and place on ground) makes the technique easy and very, very quick to use. This can counter the Sword of Totsuka. It has no feats to suggest it would even bypass the first gate, as it has only pierced skinny humans (one of which was fragile in life and even more fragile as an Edo body made of ash, and another of which was a 50+ year old sick, dying man) and sliced soft snake flesh (that Yamata looked smooth!) and anyway, unless any Itachi fan has a counter to the Databooks statement, Totsuka could pierce the first gate, get slowed down by the second, then finally stop at the third gate, due to the 'special enchantment placed on each gate', as was said in the Databooks, written by Masashi Kishimoto. (Kishimoto's logic >>> Itachi's Susano'o).  
	⁃	Kuchiyose No Jutsu
Orochimaru summons as frequently as Jiraiya. He has some of the best summons in the verse and has a lot of them. Let's take a look shall we? From weakest to strongest. 
	•	Forest Of Death Snake (Small)
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He we can see the first summon Orochimaru ever displayed ...

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And we can see the sheer striking speed of Orochimaru's weakest snake summon, so fast that Naruto couldn't even react, and strong enough to wrap around him and constrict him. Even this snake could give Itachi some trouble, but I won't underestimate his speed feats and attacks. 


	•	Forest Of Death Snake (Medium)
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Not sure if this was Anime only but this snake was so quiet Sasuke couldn't even hear it, but he didn't have is Sharingan activated so I'll give him the benefit of the debt there too

	•	Forest Of Death Snake (Large)
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This is one of Orochimaru's bigger snakes which had immense striking speed and strength, and as we know, the snake summons can shed their skin or even harden it to protect from attacks

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	•	Tanzaku Town Giant Snake
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This snake was able to knock down a castle tower just by being summoned, showing the immense power that Orochimaru's snake summons hold. If Orochimaru summons a snake on top of Itachi he dies unless he uses Susano'o, which just wastes his chakra and stamina, depletes his eyesight and eats away at his life force. 

	•	Sannin Battlefield Twin Snakes
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Without a doubt powerful snakes which Kabuto and Orochimaru opened the fight with. It took Yomi Numa just put one of them down, then Gamabunta being summoned on top of the other one to kill it. And how does Itachi counter this:
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Or dodge this?:
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Or stop the snakes like this:
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Based on his showings at the Uchiha hideout (Fire Dragon + The Shuriken Attack), Itachi needs dodging practice. A dodger as poor as him cannot evade that attack. 

It took the guy who Itachi admitted inferiority to to deal with both the double snakes (Yomi Numa for one, Gamabunta for another) and one the triple snakes too (Gamahiro):
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	•	 Giant Snake Trio
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Now enough about the fodder snakes, let's talk about the boss snakes. These snakes towered over the whole city of Konoha and destroyed buildings with ease. I've been rambling on about lesser snakes but this one has good feats. See how they easily smashed through the large walls that protect Konoha? Pain's CST (Chou Shinra Tensei) couldn't do it 
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See how CST + the pressure pushed on the city of Konoha couldn't break the walls. All the debris just rushed out the large gates but couldn't destroy the walls. Pain's most powerful attack bar probably CT (Chibaku Tensei), couldn't not break Konoha's walls, yet those large snakes could. How would they fare against V1, V2 or V3 Susano'o? Pretty well I'd say with the level of strength they had. Just look at how big that snake is. What would Itachi do? Control with genjutsu? Well canonically an MS can control one target at a time. Controlling multiple targets with Sharingan has never been shown and would be no limits fallacy. And Manda is stronger than any of those snakes. 

	•	Aoda
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Now, let's clear this up first. Orochimaru doesn't have feats for summoning Aoda which  leads many to believe he can't but it wouldn't make sense. Orochimaru can summon the Serpent King Manda. Why wouldn't he be able to summon Aoda. It's like saying Minato can't summon Gamaken. Just pure stupidity. 

And by the way, I was reading a thread ages ago. Kakuzu vs Orochimaru. Someone said 'Orochimaru doesn't have the chakra to summon multiple snakes in a fight' in response to someone stating 'Orochimaru can summon his whole plethora of snakes in a fight if he wants to', which is so obviously true, because even Kabuto, who has less way chakra than Orochimaru, was able to summon the twin snakes after fighting Tsunade and having his body and chakra levels messed up by Ranshinsho, and then after fighting Naruto and Shizune, tanking a Rasengan from Naruto and recovering from the immense damage using In'yu Shōmetsu (an A rank tech which Kabuto said was taxing) which Tsunade thought he couldn't recover from, was able to summon Manda with no problems at all, so why Orochimaru wouldn't be able to summon multiple snakes in a fight is beyond me. He summoned 3 in the forest of death. Sasuke (another guy with less chakra than Oro) summoned Manda after exhaustion from his battle with Deidara. Another feat to Orochimaru's chakra capacity. 

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Back to Aoda, we can see his immense speed in this scan. The Juubi's clones couldn't even react as Aoda manoeuvred through them in a second or two. He's probably the best or second best summon Oro has in his arsenal besides Manda

	•	Manda, King Of The Snakes

Now, Manda in my opinion is the series' most powerful summon besides Kurama and obviously Manda II. However Manda is quite underrated in most BD threads with Orochimaru. I'll explain why he's so powerful. 


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Size: size = power in most cases. If Oro summoned Manda on top of his opponent, they're gone. Simple as. I mean, a boss snake died when Gamabunta was summoned on top of it and look how big Manda is (and that's a curled up snake, not him standing on his tail straight like a ruler, because then he'd be taller than PS, which is twice the size of the kyuubi, which is around the same size as Gamabunta). Look at Oro, the size of an ant when mounted on mandas head and see how massive Manda is. 

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Fast enough to dodge Zesshi Nensan, close the distance and constrict '3  rings worth of his long serpentine body' around Katsuyu before Tsunade (who had senses sharp enough to dodge underground sneak attacks from Kabuto and protect Konoha from Pain's CST [which destroyed Konoha pretty quickly]) could realise what was happening. 

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He would have killed Katsuyu had it not been for Jiraiya's intervention and vice versa (would have swallowed Bunta if Tsunade hadn't intervened). Had Manda taken on Katsuyu and Gamabunta one after the other it would have been a complete slaughter. And can people please realise that Oro didn't have his arms so we didn't get to see any potential team attack between him and his summon, unlike we saw Bunta and J-Man perform Gamayu Endan, or Tsunade use Katusyu to heal Konoha. Jiraiya uses elemental fire power and summons. Tsunade used healing. Oro uses cunning tactics, a range of Jutsu and powerful Kinjutsu. Who knows what a healthy/unsealed Oro could have done with Manda. I mean, he was the most powerful Sannin canonically based off of feats, and hype as well. 

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Manda had enough power to throw back Gamabunta with just his tail, and destroy the ground while swiping his tail across it. The same Gamabunta that crushed Kurama (you'll see this scan below) and stabbed Shukaku. 

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And then throw the sword

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Look at the size of Gamayu Endan compared to the boss summons (look at the scan below and you'll see their equal to a bijuu in size) and yet Manda was able to tank a katon that stupidly haxx-ily massive, for a few seconds while he shed his skin like Oro's oral rebirth, and then ... (BTW that has to be by far the strongest katon in the series. Everyone says it's Madara's. But then again, he did fire a Juubi sized katon. Which do you guys think is bigger, Gouka Messhitsu or Gamayu Endan. 

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(Yes, Gamabunta is equal to a bijuu in size)

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... Open his mouth wide enough to swallow a bijuu or anything on its size like Gamabunta. This is an extremely overlooked / downplayed feat. Manda was about to swallow Gamabunta like an Easter Egg. Gamabunta is roughly the same size as the Kyuubi, which is half the size of Madara Uchiha's Perfect Susano'o, which Ōnoki's Tsunade-Powered Up Jinton was a 1/3 of the size of, so in theory, Manda could swallow that Jinton whole. Obviously he can't, but anything of that size that doesn't disintegrate your mouth, he can swallow. A lot of NV ninja don't have a counter for this move, and I feel that Itachi is on that long list. If Manda was to burrow under someone and then come from directly under someone, open his jaws that wide and swallow them, the only person in Naruto that can dodge that is Minato (and Tobirama as well) due to space time ninjutsu. Only Obito can evade it. What would Itachi do in this situation, because he'll be standing on Manda's tongue where Susano'o doesn't cover, and that tongue will be coated with snake poison specially, before Manda even attempts the attack. This is assuming Itachi has Susano'o activated at the time. It took Tsunade to out Manda down, the same Tsunade who smashed through the strongest V1 Susano'o and knocked down the strongest V3 legged Susano'o. Just compare Jiriaya to Manda in this scan. Who can dodge something that stupidly wide. And Manda is fast too. Another scan that proves boss summons are equal in size to bijuu. 

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Manda can virtually swallow a bijuu whole. And don't forget his sharp snake venom fangs. And for the record, Manda is bigger than Gamabunta anyway, but even if he was 10 times bigger or more, Manda would be able to swallow him, since in the real world, one snake can swallow an entire human being whole.  Search on the internet if you don't believe me. And when comparing size, snakes are fodders to human beings. Manda was swallowing an animal around his relative size. Manda could swallow a Perfect Susano'o if he wanted. And while swallowing means neighing to that, it means a lot to Itachi. He can't use Genjutsu. If he uses Amaterasu he's going to cook himself inside Manda's mouth. If he uses Susano'o, he depletes his stamina, life force, eyesight and chakra reserves. Totsuka can be used, but while sealing something that big, the sword is occupied, and this creates a priceless opening for Orochimaru to go for the kill. Not only this, but as soon as Itachi is introduced to the inside of Manda's mouth, he will also be introduced to the concept of poisons in the form of lethal snake venom. The fangs touch him, and he dies, since by looking at the scans above, you can see Manda's tooth was bigger than Jiraiya. Again, he has to use Susano'o, which just reacts bad to his illness and starts to rapidly decrease his life expectancy from years and months into minutes and seconds. This is the reason why he died at the Uchiha hideout and is the reason why he woul d die against Orochimaru ru. 

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Compare their size again if you like. 

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We can see that PS' lower half isn't visible. Kurama is half its size. Imagine that's all of mokujin and imagine PS doesn't have a lower half. Manda can swallow anything is this scan. Itachi's counter to that super snake sneak attack no jutsu???? Anyone???? Moving on then. 

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The Jinton that dwarfed susanoos which dwarfed the Gokage:

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And those aren't as big as they would look if the Gokage were standing directly at their feet.  In this scan their is a distance between them so that size is an understatement. 

And Ōnoki's Tsunade-powered-up (another reason why a Sannin shouldn't be underestimated as that Jinton Tsunade was responsible for can defeat a lot of people) Jinton is one-third of the size of PS, so anything that size, Manda can easily gobble up. Don't underestimate him. He could swallow the Sanbi whole and chew it like a mini burger. And then poison them like Hanzo's salamander did when it swallowed its targets:
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Read bottom sentence. Any of Oro's snakes can theoretically replicate this feat. Though that's just my speculation, given the fact that snakes in Naruto are poisonous. Sen'ei Jashu have one hit kill venoms. Oro has a paralysing agent that is more powerful than Sasori's. I will explain that later in this post. Who knows what Manda is capable of when it comes to poison?

Now take a look at this scan again:
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And this scan:
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In the first scan, in the top left, Kishi wrote "This is why they are legends". Hanzo named the Sannin 'Legendary 3' after they fought, and the last panel we saw of the actual fight was th boss summons being summoned. It is implied that these summons made the Sannin legends. Why not? Tsunade was said to have used Katsuyu in the war to heal people, and such feats won Konoha the Second World War, as Jiraiya stated in Tanzaku town. More to date they were known for being the world's best medic (Sozo Saisei/Byakugo), the Toad Sage (Sennin Mode) and White Snake (immortality techniques and white snake form/Yamata form), also implied by Nagato, who said something like, the Sannin all have their own unique abilities,  but the point still stands that the road sage's strongest toad, strongest medics medium for wide range healing and white snake's strongest summon contributed to their reputations, so again, Manda is not to be underestimated as he helped Orochimaru gain game by fighting with his master off panel in the past. 

And anyway, so what if Oro lost to Itachi. Yamata was literally standing in front of Susano'o:

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If Orochimaru is mounted this high up on a snake:
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Itachi would be out of Orochimaru's reach. Manda's head is line with clouds in this scan. And yes, Totsuka can seal Manda, but I'm sorry, look at the scans from earlier. Manda is too fast to be hit by Totsuka (whose best feats are hitting Orochimaru while he wasn't moving ..... And Nagato ...... WHILE HE WASN'T MOVING! Itachi never tried Totsuka on a moving opponent, especially one that was fast, like Kabuto-San!). Manda would have to influenced by Character Induced Stupidity + Plot Induced Stupidity + Plot No Jutsu + Talk No Jutsu + Kishimoto Wants Itachi To Win The Fight No Jutsu in order for him to be hit. He dodged Zesshi Nensan, which hit the rock in a second flat. Besides, who says Totsuka can pierce Manda? C0 only burnt the outer layer of his skin. Yes, Gamabunta's sword pierced him, but not only was it wielded by the physically strongest person in Naruto, but actually has feats, such as cutting into Shukaku's arm (and Tailed Beasts have a high level of durability). I mean, at the end of the day, it's a chakra blade like any other V3 Susano'o sword, but is just enchanted with a powerful sealing technique. If the sword doesn't hit (and it won't hit Oro) then the technique is redundant. Simple as. And this was Manda with his body bent, not standing tall and straight like these snakes were:
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These snakes were standing tall on their tails. Look at the length of tail Manda was wasting: Link removed

Compare it to this:
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The snake has the rest of its body and tail in the background, if you look to the left in the top panel. If they brought all their body up together and stood tall they would taller than Konoha by far (they're already twice as high as Konoha in the first place and could double that height, while Susano'o is about the size of a tiny, tiny house in Konoha). Now really think about this one. Manda is bigger than any of those snakes, and when curled up stood higher than Katusyu, who was slightly bigger than Gamabunta, who equated in size exactly to a Bijuu. So if Manda stood up tall like the two snakes from the Sannin fight, how high up would Orochimaru be raised? And how far would be out of the range of any of Itachi's attacks, let alone the Totsuka, because let's be real, the databook said Yamata was bigger than Manda, but yet Yamata was = in size to Susano'o, which fits on Aoda's head like a small crown:
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No. Not even a crown. More like balancing a golf ball in your head. That's how big Susano'o is to Aoda. Aoda is even smaller than Manda, and Manda is fast enough to dodge attacks that would have hit him in less than 2 seconds if he didn't dodge it. Manda can stand at least twice as tall as Gamabunta if he just raised his head, and three times if he balanced on the bottom of his tail, like the two snakes Kabuto summoned for Orochimaru did. Orochimaru would be so out of Itachi's range (the height he would be elevated to his like 3 bijuu standing on top of one another), and all Itachi would be able to do then, is shoot a fire ball which Manda laughs at due to tanking C0 and for a little bit, Gama Yuendan. Amaterasu? Sheds his skin. Tsukuyomi?Orochimaru snaps him out like anyone can snap their partner out of any Genjutsu. Control Manda? Lol! And Manda is stupidly fast as well. Too fast to be hit by Totsuka. You want to know how high 3 bijuu is. Think about how high in th  SkyTsunade was here:
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The height of a Bijuu above Manda whose front teeth would touch a bijuu's shoulders if it was standing on Gamabunta's head. If Orochimaru were to do what I said, he would be roughly where the blade meets the handle on Gamabunta's sword in terms of  height. 3 bijuu. Bijuu tower over buildings which tower over Itachi. Remember that. 
And let me post this scan again:
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The rubble rushed out the large wooden doors at the front because CST's impact was not strong enough to even put a scratch on those walls. The walls of Konoha held back Pain's CST + the whole City of Konoha being propelled at it 180 miles per hour. The walls didn't even crack. Yet out of three giant snakes, just one slammed through the gate like it was nothing. And Manda > Aoda > that snake, which means he packs a substantial amount more of power that those do. Manda was called the 'strongest colossal serpent'. Basically, what I'm trying to say is Manda >>> CST in terms of immediate physical raw power. If Manda attacks Itachi this fast:
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This means a lot because the distance Manda covers in a cakewalk would be a whole battlefield worth of space in comparison to normal humans like Itachi. Manda is faster than Itachi. Believe it. And stronger than the looks like it. Unless it can be proved the back of Susano'o can tank CST (come on, Tsunade can break it, Raikage can break it) which is canonically < Orochimaru's nameless snake (by power, not area of effect), who is < Aoda who is << Manda <<<<<<<<< Manda while performing the same head butt used to break the walls of Konoha, but while travelling at a very high speed. He will smash into Susano'o. Danzo did it with a B Rank Fuuton. That same Fuuton Danzo used to break into Susano'o <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< CST <<< Nameless serpent < Aoda << Base Manda <<<<<<<< Manda at high speed. That level of strength should make up for not having something like Baku's suction to help out. And when I said nameless serpent, note that it is one out of a group of three. If all of the, struck at once like the Twin Snakes from the Sannin fight,mthe damage they deal would cause grief for Itachi.  And don't say he's dodging because he couldn't dodge these fodder (fodder in comparison to the fodder snake that was summoned in the Forest of Death) snakes: 

And he had to use Susano'o. Itachi used it to tank Kirin while alive and used Amaterasu to escape an inescapable Jutsu. Alive Itachi doesn't have the luxuries of casually using Susano'o, but he has too against snakes like this, and it's going to cost him in the long run as it will waste his chakra, deplete his stamina, eat away at his eyesight and gnaw away at his life force. And what if he tanks with Yata, while one attacks, the other two can easily go around Susano'o and slam into the back, break in, and kill Itachi. Even if one gets cut with Totsuka (based on the size of the snakes it will only be a scratch, and since they can harden their scales, I need feats to suggest Totsuka, which only pierced skinny immobile men like Oro and Nagato, will be able to pierce god snakes) there is still one more snake. And then Aoda and Manda are just slightly stronger, much faster versions of each of those snakes. And Edo Hashirama can pull him out of Susano'o while Edo Tobirama cuts him with Hiraishingiri or Water Stream used to cut the God Tree's branches. 

Or what if Manda does something similar to this to him:
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(Look closely. Manda's poisonous fang = an entire human being in size. Itachi can afford to get him something like this. He has to keep resorting to Susano'o, which decreases his life expectancy from how many years into how many minutes).

Or attacks any part of his Susano'o not guarded by Yata mirror i.e. behind Susano'o (and Manda has more than enough speed to pull this off) how does Itachi react? And as for the scan I posted below, Manda can stick his giant tail from underground right up Itachi's ass (that tail crumbled a massive boulder by just swiping against is if you look closely at the scan where Manda dodges Katsuyu's attack, that tail held Katsuyu down, that tail threw Gamabunta back a large distance) and that tail will kill him and his Susano'o from underneath. Like I said, I'm not downplaying Itachi, but the Sannin just fight on a different scale to him. Look at their stupidly strong summons. Kabuto compared KN4 vs Orochimaru to "a fight between monsters". In terms of chakra capacity Orochimaru = Tsunade > Raikage = a bijuu. And I guess you could say the same in terms of strength (Raikage wrestled Hachibi on a regular basis). 

Now, to finish up with the Manda analysis ...
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Mandas best feat. Tanking Deidara's C0

Manda's Skin > C0. 

Just wanted statement that to soak in 

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This explosion

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That's this big. See the town on the right of the page in the middle? The one Sakura was in. That's how big. C3 was suggested to be large enough to destroy Sunagakure or a large portion of it, so what would C0 do to Konoha? It's a powerful bomb and Manda tanked it for Sasuke. He has the best durability feats for any summon in the NV, besides Kurama of course. 

And before I finish up with snakes, read this extract from the Wikipedia Article on .... Snakes!��:
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Perception
Smell
Snakes use smell to track their prey. They smell by using their forked tongues to collect airborne particles, then passing them to the vomeronasal organ or Jacobson's organ in the mouth for examination.[35] The fork in the tongue gives snakes a sort of directional sense of smell and taste simultaneously.[35] They keep their tongues constantly in motion, sampling particles from the air, ground, and water, analyzing the chemicals found, and determining the presence of prey or predators in the local environment. In water-dwelling snakes, such as the anaconda, the tongue functions efficiently under water.[35]
Eyesight
Snake vision varies greatly, from only being able to distinguish light from dark to keen eyesight, but the main trend is that their vision is adequate although not sharp, and allows them to track movements.[36] Generally, vision is best in arboreal snakes and weakest in burrowing snakes. Some snakes, such as the Asian vine snake (genus Ahaetulla), have binocular vision, with both eyes capable of focusing on the same point. Most snakes focus by moving the lens back and forth in relation to the retina, while in the other amniotegroups, the lens is stretched. Many nocturnal snakes have slit pupils while diurnal snakes have round pupils.
Thermographic image of a snake eating a mouse.
Infrared sensitivity
Pit vipers, pythons, and some boas (let me interrupt by saying Manda is a boa, constrictor, and so are the three giant snakes, and Aoda is a viper) have infrared-sensitive receptors in deep grooves on the snout, which allow them to "see" the radiated heat of warm-blooded prey mammals. In pit vipers the grooves are located between the nostril and the eye, in a large "pit" on each side of the head. Other infrared-sensitive snakes have multiple, smaller labial pits lining the upper lip, just below the nostrils.[35]
Vibration sensitivity
The part of the body in direct contact with the ground is very sensitive to vibration; thus, a snake can sense other animals (and people, like Itachi Uchiha) approaching by detecting faint vibrations in the air and on the ground.[35]
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Conclusion for summoning: funny thing is Oro and Manda weren't even on good terms. The one time he was summoned to fight for Orochimaru, he didn't even want to, yet look at his performance. He was stomping the other boss summoms. They had to save each other just to escape Manda's lethality. Had Oro been on good terms with Manda they would have been a dangerous duo but that's fanfic so it's irrelevant. What's relevant is we never saw Oro at full power summon Manda and actually fight with him. The Manda that can swallow a bijuu whole, has fangs bigger than an entire human being which have lethal snake venoms, and has the speed to dodge Zeshi Nensan which hit the rock in less than two seconds, and then almost kill Katsuyu before her or Tsunade could react. Manda was dangerous, and very dangerous. Imagine Orochimaru summoning Manda, Aoda, Giant Snake Trio, Twin Giant Snakes And Forest Of Death Snake one after the other to fight all at once like Pain's Animal Path did in Konoha. A very long list of opponents in the NV would be overwhelmed. No doubt about that. 
	⁃	Elemental Jutsu
He was more than proficient In Futon and Doton. His Futon knocked down a tree and his Doton was used to make good replacements while fighting Hiurzen. Or was that anime only? Not sure, but never mind. 
	⁃	Fuinjutsu
Gogyo Fuin was able to suppress the Nine Tails' chakra. An impressive feat if you ask me. If something like that hit Itachi it would be GG. It was for Naruto wasn't it?:
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	⁃	Juinjutsu
Orochimaru's cursed seals are powerful. He can make any recipient of those seals feel immense pain with a single seal as Sasuke, Anko and the Sound 4 did. 
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Couldn't find the direct scan but here Tayuya says "In exchange for power, we have become Orochimaru's servants. We have already lost out freedom", which indicates that he has control of them. If Tayuya tried to assassinate Orochimaru all he needs to do is make a single seal, alter his sage chakra (yes ... Senjutsu .... which Itachi doesn't have ... And indicates strong shinobi i.e. the likes of Minato, Naruto, Jiraiya, Hashirama and possibly/theoretically Tsunade through the way she stores chakra and defies the limits of Medical Ninjutsu - Senjutsu could be an explanation for this, maybe Hashirama as the Slug Sage, a theory I made years ago) and make them feel immense pain, paralysing them and killing them if they have low willpower like Itachi who didn't even have the will to fight for his clan so just killed them to rid himself of the burden. Stupid how Oro (or Kishi) forgot he could do this when Sasuke attacked him on his death bed and then used the same cursed seal to overpower his dimension when he tried to take over Sasuke body. Silly really. Cos of Uchiha favouritism Sasuke wins fights he shouldn't. Maybe it was Oro's lack of Jutsu in part two that caused this because he does have to use a hand seal, so fair enough ... But he immobilised Gurguru with one. The same Guruguru that trolled the Gokage. (Which reinforces that Orochimaru > Hiurzen > Gokage) But he had his arms back by then so that makes sense. So Kishi was right. Anyway, these were the days where logic mattered in the manga, unlike nowadays where we had Kakashi getting Susano'o .... �� And PS at that.  But back to Curse Mark, scans for inducing immense pain and paralysis:
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Gurguru could not move anymore until this weak, temporary curse faded away. If the same Curse Seal (or a better one) hits Itachi, he's toast. 
	⁃	Kinjutsu
Who is better than Oro in this, besides Kabuto arguably, but let's not talk about him. Let's talk about Oro and Edo Tensei. With feats he summoned Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama (albeit weaker than when Kabuto and Part 2 Oro summoned their Edo's, only because Hashirama can resist the control and Tobirama knows the seals to undo the binding contract, but still they were powerful). Hashirama still had powerful mokuton: jukai kotan and Tobirama used high level suitons. Edo's are immortal and have unlimited chakra. How would Itachi deal with these besides Totsuka, which can only seal one at at time, allowing Oro to Kusanagi snipe Itachi like he did to KN4 via under the ground, which is GG for Itachi by the way)
Conclusion to 'Ninjutsu' Section Alone:
Orochimaru had all this but we never got to see much of it. 
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If this had never happened ... (Orochimaru's later fights would have been different. What people don't realise is while Itachi kept getting powered up to make the plot go forward in part 2. In part 1, for the plot to be forwarded and everyone else to stand a chance, Orochimaru got severely nerfed. Think about it, had he not played around, he could have taken Konoha down by himself. Didn't Hiruzen say he could take a country):
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Yet Itachi never received such hype. That countries would want to hire him. And don't say he was in the Akatsuki because Orochimaru was at one point too. Funny how they said Sasori took down a country. He was Oro's partner. Someone considered around his strength level. And Sasori was sickly powerful. Since he doesn't have real eyes or a brain, is fast, and can change into other puppet bodies in a split second, maybe he could beat Itachi. I mean, they were never compared for us to state otherwise. I've had enough of the logic always being Itachi > everyone. I'm not trying to bring Itachi down and make him look weak. I just want people to open their eyes. Don't always judge a book by its cover. Read the book first (look at abilities, hype, statements, facts, feats) and then analyse (like I've been doing this whole thread so far and will continue to do so for a lot longer in this post). (That's another discussion we can have in this thread)￼
	⁃	Shirohebi No Jutsu
Orochimaru's most valuable abilities. Not Edo Tensei, this. Orochimaru's White Snake True Form can produce a paralysing agent which allows him to kill his opponent or take their body, provided they are not a Sharingan user who can reverse the process on him. Applying a curse seal beforehand only makes it better for Oro once he's got the body and makes it harder for them to resist (although Oro experienced this because Sasuke reversed the process) and then there is Yamata No Orochi, which is basically 8 of Manda that can regenerate, all put together as one snake. Powerful if you ask me. And by the way, Orochimaru's paralysing agent isn't to be underestimated as even Sasuke (Who Is Immune To Poisons) couldn't resist it:

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Read bottom left panel. Orochimaru made Sasuke immune to poison like he did to Anko. 

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Yet he was helpless when it came to Orochimaru's poison, which even a poison resistant version of Itachi has no counter to, so if he inhales this poison or even gets bitten (or 'tooth scratched') by any of Orochimaru's snakes, then he's dead meat. And remember how powerful Sasori's poison was. It was a numbing poison too but took longer to kick in than Oro's and was susceptible to antidotes, unlike Oro's poison, which a poison-immune ninja like Sasuke couldn't even resist, so this poison that Orochimaru has can lead to Itachi's death. If he uses Susano'o to protect himself while he's down (which I doubt he'd be able to do as poisons affect your body chemistry which in turn can mess up your chakra levels), then Orochimaru can burrow under it and kill him. There's Gathering of the Snakes (the Jutsu Oro used to reconnect himself when KN4 cut him) 


And then there's Oral Rebirth. I need to talk about this one on it's own. 

A silly misconception is that Oral Rebirth is a taxing technique for Orochimaru. Let me clear this up once and for all. Pay attention to the following scans:

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Conclusion: Orochimaru used Oral Rebirth THREE TIMES, then his body started failing him. Orochimaru's chakra capacity and the time limit set on his host are not connected. Orochimaru said his body was giving up on him. Not that he ran out of chakra using a technique he smiled while using it before. Kabuto even said the same thing in the scan I posted below that, just to confirm, and clear up any misconceptions. I mean, am I the only person in the world who can see this. If so, I'm really worried. Sasuke saved Oral Rebirth as he only had the chakra to use it once as the technique was taxing, for him. Orochimaru and Sasuke have completely different chakra capacities. Orochimaru is more suited to using his own techniques than Sasuke is. Nothing in the manga suggests that if Orochimaru had continued the fight, he would not have been able to use Oral Rebirth again and again and again and again and again. The Jutsu is taxing for Sasuke, not for Orochimaru. Sasuke's chakra capacity and Orochimaru's reserves were not compared. The misconception is that Orochimaru can't use Oral Rebirth several times. Wrong. The misconception is that Itachi can spam his Mangekyō Techniques. He used Tsukuyomi once, and Amaterasu twice. The second Amaterasu "Took a lot out of him". He went almost blind in that eye. In Part I, he used Tsukuyomi once, and Amaterasu twice, then had to "Rest his eyes". You don't believe me you say? Take a look at the scans yourself. They're from Kishi's own manga:

PART I
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Tsukuyomi on Kakashi. 

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Tsukuyomi on Sasuke. 

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Amaterasu on Frog Belly. Then Itachi's Sharingan deactivates and he needs to rest his body and his eyes. 

He's limited to three basic MS techniques. Even take a look at Part 2 if you don't believe Kishimoto. 

PART II
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Itachi uses Tsukuyomi and his eye starts paining him already. The great Itachi-Sama. 

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Itachi's eye bleeds profusely as he uses the first Amaterasu of the fight. 

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Then the second one he uses causes him to go 90% blind in his right eye, rendering it useless and, turns it into a remaining fuel for which he can use to fuel Susano'o in combination with his other eye. 

Conclusion: He has 3 shots at Mangekyo Sharingan, plus Susano'o to put the cheery on the cake if Itachi wants to completely exhaust himself and in the process be sent to the afterlife. And even then he can uphold Susano'o long enough to tank Kirin (barely, look at the state of him in the scan I'll post below) and scuffle with Orochimaru's Yamata, before it starts deactivating to its lower forms (I'll get this scan too [if this happens in a fight with Orochimaru then Orochimaru wins as Totsuka and Yata is all that stands in his way]) and then by time he walked up to Sasuke, he died of chakra exhaustion. Take a look at the scans:

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A scan of Itachi after tanking Kirin. 

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A scan of Itachi saying "If I hadn't used this" showing that even when bypassed, his V2 Susano'o allows him to take damages. Orochimaru has a summon that canonically packs more strength that Pain's CST. Refer back to the 'Summoning' section if you've forgotten this. A snake weaker than Manda slammed it's head into Konoha's walls and broke them. The same walls that circle the village weren't scratched by Pain's CST. How much stronger is his V4 Susano'o? By the looks of it, Extending Kusanagi into its back will pierce right through it, as V4 Susano'o has no durability feats save for standing behind Yata Mirror, which Orochimaru can easily manoeuvre under, or around, or hell, maybe even over it  if elevated by a regular summon or a boss snake. 

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A scan of Itachi basically blind and using Susano'o with the last of everything in him. (Meaning no Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. Susano'o is a last resort and Itachi will probably only use it after his regular MS techniques. This isn't Edo Itachi which can spam these things). Because blindness or Sharingan deactivation (means the same thing in a fight with Itachi, or just Sharingan users in general I guess) is what happens when Itachi uses one Tsukuyomi and two Amaterasu, or the other way round, or maybe even three either way, but only one way of course. Itachi's sick and overused his Mangekyo. He doesn't have the luxuries in a fight against Orochimaru that Sasuke had against Danzo or the Raikage or Kakashi, Sakura (barely, she was useless in this fight) and Naruto, or against Killer B. So taking all this into account, can Itachi really beat Orochimaru, in a fight where not only does Orochimaru spawn in Yamata (Kishi did this for no apparent reason but for him to get soloed. Orochimaru came out of Anko's Curse Mark in human form. But when it was Sasuke Kishi made it Yamata so there was an excuse for Orochimaru not to dodge Totsuka because he was desperate for Itachi to win the fight) but also a fight where Orochimaru is bloodlusted like he was against Jiraiya and Tsunade (The one fight where he was bloodlusted. He was ruthless in this fight and in 'no nonsense mode'. Nonsense mode is the mode he was in against Hiruzen & KN4, yet look how extraordinarily well he performed in both fights) and not trying to take Itachi's body (so a scenario where Orochimaru actually wants to injure his opponent). By the way, if Orochimaru summons Manda on Itachi's head. How does he counter?

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A scan of the effect on Itachi of using V4 Susano'o for less than 60 seconds. 

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A scan of Itachi after exhaustion, with his Susano'o starting to fail and flutter. An opening which Orochimaru can use. This form of Susano'o pulled out Yata Mirror. (Doesn't mean this form has Totsuka too. Has no feats.) But Orochimaru can attack under Susano'o, or have Edo Hashirama's Mokuton or some boss snakes wrap up Susano'o and hold it down so Orochimaru can attack from behind, or under still in this scenario. By the way. If Edo Tobirama puts a Flying Thunder God Seal on Itachi's body, King Kai from DBZ is going to write the words "Itachi Uchiha" on the "these soon to be dead people are coming to heaven in less than 24 hours" list. What's Itachi's counter? Itachi < Minato as it is. Tobirama is essentially Minato with Suiton instead of Rasengan. And no Gamabunta, but Orochimaru has a better summon, Manda, and there's more where he came from. Tobirama > Izuna (a better version of Itachi, that looks like Sasuke) by the way. And let's not even talk about Edo Hashirama. Itachi's overwhelmed in this battle. You know it and so do I. Itachi supporters cannot deny this. 

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A scan of Itachi after using Susano'o for no more than, what, 2 minutes, maybe 3? I know this might sound like the stupidest thing you've ever heard, but, is Susano'o even something Itachi should use? I know he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, but imagine he was. Hebi Sasuke could outlast Susano'o Itachi. Orochimaru most certainly can. With boss summons and Edo's fighting in his corner, besides everything Orochimaru can do himself. Susano'o renders Itachi basically blind, and then he dies after. If we're talking about a scenario where Itachi actually wants to win, why would he use a technique that blinds him (this wipes out the rest of his arsenal, logically) and then kills him after? That would be a fool's move. But since everything else Itachi has is redundant: Amaterasu (Oral Rebirth), Tsukuyomi (I'm writing a whole section of my essay on just this, so sit tight), Kotoamatsukami (I'll explain in depth later, but the brief version is, has no combat application feats. We don't know if Itachi can change the command of the crow from "save konoha" to anything else. Itachi couldn't unprogramme Amaterasu in Sasuke's eyes. Madara couldn't do the same to the Izanagi he programmed. Yes, Kotoamatsukami is powerful, but almost making Mifune say "Danzo" instead of "Raikage" doesn't equate to defeating Orochimaru, or anyone for that matter. I talk about this properly, so don't worry.), Izanami (works on people who try to change their destiny. Kabuto wanted to be Orochimaru. Orochimaru is Orochimaru. He's not trying to be anyone but himself. The same argument can be used for almost anyone but Danzo. This argument was a counter in the Itachi vs Madara threads.), 3 Tomoe Genjutsu (lol) and Fire Balls (�� ...)

When you pile chakra exhaustion and pain in every cell of his body on top of his terminal illness, that's what happens to Itachi. Thank goodness the illness wasn't a genetic thing, because Danzo (or the rest of Team 7) would have wiped the floor with Sasuke if it was. 

And also look at these these scans:
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Itachi said Oral Rebirth was a technique straight from Orochimaru's repertoire, and that it was chakra taxing. What people don't understand is that he made that comment to Sasuke based in a Jutsu he saw Sasuke use, not to Orochimaru based on a Jutsu which he used. It was never implied Oral Rebirth was taxing. Sasuke had to save it for Amaterasu. Orochimaru used it smiled each time. When you use a technique that is taxing (like any MS technique for Sasuke, or Rasenshuriken for Naruto during his assault on Kakuzu), you don't laugh about it. You start panting, and huffing and puffing. Orochimaru did this at the end of the fight, when his body was giving up on him, not because Oral Rebirth takes too much chakra. But because it's something Itachi said (he is God to his fanboys), everyone takes it at face value and just underestimates Orochimaru as a result of it, without even thinking about it first. Itachi said Oral Rebirth was from Orochimaru's repertoire. Hashirama techniques and cells, the Uchiha's Sharingan eyes and Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth obviously become weaker when used by someone the Jutsu is not suited to. The same applies to the Rinnegan. Look at what Nagato did with Rinnegan. Madara, the original host of the eyes, could do more, and for less of a price (in terms of chakra). I mean, Itachi can't fire 1000 fire balls, but what's to say he can't fire 100? Or 50? The Jutsu was never said to take much chakra from him. This logic applies to Oral Rebirth. The sooner people realise this, the better. And for the record, Oral Rebirth is a counter to Amaterasu. 

Sasuke just can't use Orochimaru's Jutsu as good as he can. If he could, he'd be stronger than Orochimaru (Orochimaru + Hebi Sasuke > Orochimaru, no matter how inferior Sasuke is to him), and that would mean Jiraiya, Pain, Tsunade < Hebi Sasuke (would this make sense to you?).

These misconceptions (Itachi can spam, but he really can't. Oral Rebirth is taxing for Orochimaru, but it really isn't) are all a result of either overrating Itachi, or underrating Orochimaru. Or maybe even both, since the two virtually go hand in hand with each other. I really needed to clear this up. It's been bugging me like a stomach ache. I'm not saying Oral Rebirth can be spammed a hundred times, but nothing in the manga suggests otherwise. Review the scans and reread everything I just wrote. Sasuke used it once, and his chakra was gone. Orochimaru used it three times, and laughed the first two times, but didn't the third time, because it's not funny when your soul is trying to exit your body, as that can result in your death, the reason why Orochimaru needs to hop from body to body every three years in the first place. Orochimaru used Oral Rebirth three times and showed no signs of chakra exhaustion or that the technique was taxing. He never said anything to suggest it was. People say it's taxing based off something their God Itachi decreed about Sasuke and a Jutsu that Sasuke used and the effect it had on Sasuke's chakra levels. Now let me repeat, Oral Rebirth is not taxing for Orochimaru, just like summoning isn't taxing. I mean, call me a fanboy, but whose to say he can't use it ten or a hundred times in a fight. Orochimaru said he was immortal. Having a three-shot Jutsu that gives you less immortality than Izanagi isn't immortality. And Danzo didn't say he was an immortal. But Orochimaru did. Yes, Orochimaru has about five different things/ways that make him immortal, such as this Jutsu: Gathering of the Snakes:
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Getting cut in half is worse than having your arm taken off, for a normal human. I could argue that this Jutsu is just as useful if not more useful than Oral Rebirth. It lets you escape damage that normally would have injured you heavily (cut in half = death, arm taken off = very injured. Which one is worse?) and Orochimaru showed or said nothing that made it look like this Jutsu had a limit to the number of times it could be used in one fight. He could change bodies as many times as he wants, but just had to wait three years for each transfer. When the White Snake Form gets cut up, the head gets up and starts talking:
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By the way, that numbing poison? The one the poison resistant Uchiha (a clan with members known for having a counter or escape to everything, from C4 to Gaara's Pyramid Sealing) couldn't resist. Itachi has (yet again) no counter to it. Susano'o? Maybe ... but I already explained why that's not a good option. But if can't be helped, Itachi has to sacrifice his life and eyesight. If he does this, he loses, because sacrificing your life = death. Dodging? No. If Orochimaru plays dead while he waits for the poison to kick in, Itachi's going to hang around for a bit to either make sure he's dead or rest a little bit since fighting a Sannin can be exhausting. Itachi was spent fighting Jiriaya, died fighting Sasuke. How can he actually beat Orochimaru, and let me remind you, a Healthy Orochimaru, in a fair fight, with knowledge either side. (I guess in a scenario with knowledge, Itachi might know about the poison, but no matter, because in a scenario without, he won't, and Orochimaru had plenty of ways of dealing with Itachi. He just never got to use them against him. You know, the times where Itachi had those illegitimate wins against Itachi?). Now back to the Shirohebi. 

It cannot be killed. He can not be killed (at least where it concerns Itachi Uchiha). Just like there is no limit to Orochimaru's durability (as in, if Tsunade keeps punching him, nothing happens until something good enough to damage him, like a KN4 Bijuu bomb, hits him. One Tsunade punch will kill you. One did nothing to Orochimaru. So he tanks it. When he spits a new body, he's fresh to start the cycle again). I don't know what it is that makes people think Oral Rebirth has a limit. I mean, every Jutsu has a limit somewhere but Oral Rebirth's is not low. Sasuke fought Itachi in Genjutsu and a bit of Taijutsu and Ninjutsu for let's say 10-20 mins and got exhausted. Orochimaru's stamina/chakra has never run out in this manga and has never even come close to doing so. So why do people think Oral Rebirth taxes Orochimaru's chakra in large amounts? I don't know. Maybe so they can create another flawed excuse to make Orochimaru look weaker than Itachi. But even if Orochimaru could only use Oral Rebirth 3 times, it's still more times than the maximum amount of times we have ever seen a Living Itachi use Amaterasu in battle before his MS expires, which is two. If he uses two Amaterasu he gets one shot at Tsukuyomi. If he uses Tsukuyomi twice he gets one shot at Amaterasu. 3 MS techniques is his limit, as seen in the only two periods of time in which Itachi had been using his Mangekyo. And Susano'o doesn't last very long either. Yet Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth (which can escape Tostuka sealing) does. When Totsuka hit, Orochimaru looked for a second, giggled, then said a whole sentence before the 'sealing' initiated:
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It is the same as when he used it on Edo Nagato:
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It canonically took 3 pages over the span of 2 chapters to seal one person/Edo. In lesser timeframes than that (such as 1 panel), Orochimaru has used Oral Rebirth to choke up a new body, as you can see in the scans I posted above earlier. So if the old body gets stabbed, the sealing technique won't affect anything unconnected to it, as shown in canon, so Oral Rebirth is a legitimate counter to Totsuka Blade. Because Totsuka takes time to seal. More time than Oral Rebirth does. Besides Orochimaru can dodge the blade, so who cares. It's only a sword, and Orochimaru has dodged worse than swords before:
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KN3 Naruto created some sort of explosion. Orochimaru lost an arm yes, but it's like escaping from the eye of a tornado. It takes strength and speed to do that. 

And tanked things stronger than a Totsuka stab, such as this:
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And without feats besides cutting smooth snake skin, or piercing skinny guys like Orochimaru and Nagato (Orochimaru is an old man and Nagato is extremely frail, just to be precise), Totsuka isn't piercing any of this:
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These gates tower over trees which Itachi's Susano'o is not taller than. This is a good counter to a Totsuka blade. Behind the gates, Orochimaru can summon his Edo's if they are not already summoned. Hashirama uses Kokuangyo followed by Jukai Kotan to bind Itachi's Susano'o, and Orochimaru burrows under and uses Extending Kusanagi to snipe Itachi in the stomach, face, head, I don't care, and it finishes him of. If he tries and dodges this, he has to leave Susano'o, whose being strapped down and having its armed tied up (rendering Totsuka useless) by Hashirama in a continuous Mokuton Barrage. Tobirama sits on a tree drunk and sips red wine as he isn't even needed in all this. Once Itachi leaves Susano'o and barely has eyesight left, Manda can finish things off. With summons (Rashomon, Edo Tensei and Manda) he can defeat Itachi. Some of his best moves come from summoning, just like Jiraiya (Toad Mouth Trap, Gamayu Endan, Sage Mode [only possible due to Ma & Pa sustaining it for him] and Magen: Gamarinshō). Hell, if Tsunade with all her chakra did to Katsuyu's Acid Slime what she did to Ōnoki's Jinton with the last of her reserves, who knows what she could do. The Sannin's boss summons were said in the Three Way Deadlock chapter to be the reason why they are legendary, by Kishimoto himself. Don't underestimate summons when it comes to the Sannin. Plus, if Itachi tries to counter Orochimaru with anything funny, then Tobirama drops a Suiton lake on Itachi's head. And we all know he hates getting his long hair wet��(That's why he didn't want to stand in the rain with Kisame). The distance of the gates is wide too though, so if Itachi is in front of Orochimaru and he tries Totsuka, if Orochimaru summons the first gate under him, he can send Itachi flying (by the time he gets down Oro'll have Edo Shodai and Nidaime ready for him) or trap him between two gates (Susano'o if big so may have trouble getting out). Either way Orochimaru wins this battle so I don't even know why I need to continue. �� ... And for the record, these are the same kind of gates which to break either take the above attack or a Perfect Susano'o Sword (stronger than anything Itachi's Susano'o has in terms of cutting and piercing strength) and Bijuu Bomb spicy kebab special just to topple an upgraded version over: 
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I mean, just compare Jiraiya's battle with Pain. The epicness. Despite everything that happened, I think Orochimaru just overall operates on a different scale from what Itachi does. Itachi needs one of his top 3 techniques to take down Part I Kakashi, Part I Sasuke, and used one to escape Base Jiriaya's Jutsu. The same Jutsu failed against Sasuke because he countered it with one of Orochimaru's techniques. I mean, overall Orochimaru is a better shinobi all the way round win a diversified skill set. Itachi has a narrow range of abilities, and having one type of Jutsu can lose you a fight if you don't have a substitute. Look at Deidara vs Sasuke. But then we have Jiraiya, who had a different technique for every situation. Orochimaru is essentially the same. He has techniques that parallel his. Powerful summons, some imperfect form of sage mode or something related to their animal theme, a transformation, good Genjutsu skills, AOE ninjutsu, fuinjutsu. This is what puts the Sannin as a whole a tier above Itachi and Pain, and 2 tiers above the rest of the Akatsuki, in my personal, rational, evidenced opinion. 

Like I said before, if you have a venomous snake (Itachi) and a human (Oro), if the man breaks his leg and falls down (host body giving up) and drops his weapons somewhere (Shiki Fūjin), he just can't win. However, if he had his weapons, let's say knives and guns (Orochimaru's diverse ninjutsu arsenal), and his leg wasn't broken (healthy body that still has ages till the next transfer) and had his special walkie talkie (Edo Tensei) to call his two bodybuilder/boxer/wrestler friends (Edo Shodaime & Edo Nidaime Hokage) who are trained in fighting snakes (Senju developed their abilities around fighting Uchiha, who they encountered on a daily basis) then the snake (Itachi) and the human (Oro [how ironic I'm calling Itachi snake and Oro human!])'s fight would go very differently. In fact, the human would stomp the snake. I need people to realise this. 

And like I said before, Totsuka becomes redundant if Orochimaru is mounted high on a snake (one snake when crouched down was taller than Konoha) as Orochimaru escapes its reach, but anyway, back to what I was talking about. 

At the end of the day, Susano'o was extremely taxing yet Madara could spam it, alive or Edo. It shows his chakra capacity >>>>>>>>>> Itachi's capacity, just like Orochimaru's capacity >>>>>>>> Hebi Sasuke's capacity. What's more, when you use a Jutsu that doesn't belong to you, it's bound to be taxing. Yamato was spent fro,must making a row of houses out of his wood after Pain nuked the village. Yet, Hashirama without any tax whatsoever can make Mokuton statues that tower over the Kyuubi. When Danzo uses Hashirama Mokuton it takes over his body. When Kakashi uses Sharingan it eats away at his chakra. Itachi can constantly keep his Sharingan on for days and days until he uses MS three times. Why doesn't the same logic apply to Orochimaru and Sasuke where it concerns oral rebirth. Probably because people just want to underrate Orochimaru and bring him down to level, of Hebi Sasuke. All I know is that 3 times is not the limit for the number of times that Orochimaru can use oral rebirth, but still, even if it was, it will regenerate the damage from 3 MS techniques (as 3 = 3 And 3 - 3 = 0) which was shown the only periods of time alive Itachi used MS, to be the maximum number of techniques he can use. And Totsuka can be dodged. So even when you downplay Orochimaru he's still a match for Itachi. 

By the way, foolish people with pea brains would usually talk about Healthy Itachi and refer to Part I Itachi. Even then, when we had no knowledge of his terminal illness, he could only use Tsukuyomi twice and Amaterasu once, and had to deactivate his Sharingan. Not MS, but the whole Dojutsu. If that happens in a fight with Orochimaru, Itachi'd might as well dig his own grave and lie in it, before Orochimaru does it for him. In Part II he used Amaterasu twice and Tsukuyomi once. Virtually the same thing, then his right eye went 70% blind or something like that because it looked like when Itachi used Izanami or Madara used Izanagi:
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Either way, he's toast, as a couple of minutes of Susano'o is all he has left. If Itachi chooses to live instead of die, and doesn't use Susano'o, Orochimaru kills him. If he does use Susano'o, if by this time they're not already out, Orochimaru summons Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama to help outlast Itachi, and do this by occupying him with Jutsu as powerful as this:
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And dodge his attacks with speed as powerful as this:
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In the time he made one hand seal, a forest appeared. Tsunade (or was it Mizukage?) said the same when Edo Madara used Kajukai Kourin, another Jutsu that Edo Hashirama should have access to:
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Itachi can only counter with a Jutsu that depletes life force, chakra, stamina and eyesight. 

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And also it is possible to reduce Susano'o to nothingness by sucking the chakra out of Susano'o with a Jutsu like this:
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Which not only was used to bind the Kyuubi and suppress its chakra, but had a better absorbing power than Preta Path, which many debaters on these forums believed was powerful enough to absorb a Perfect Susano'o in seconds. I think that's absurd, but the point still stands as Itachi's Susano'o is pea sized in comparison. 

Edo Tobirama can crush it and/or Itachi (or, meaning if Itachi already in Susano'o) with extreme water pressure in something similar to this, which is massive, a probably something Tobirama might be able to pull off as he was the world's strongest suiton user, and to this day, is unsurpassed. He has no feats for this exact Jutsu, but can probably create this much water, if not more:
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I've rambled a lot, but I had to, in order to clear the air. I'll condense all that information into two clear sentences. Sentence number one: "Itachi's MS gets spent after three techniques and Susano'o's usage kills him". This is based on canon. "Orochimaru can use Oral Rebirth only 3 times because it is taxing". This is not based on canon. To be honest, I really don't know what this is based off. Does anyone reading this actually know what that statement is based of? Orochimaru being underrated? Itachi hype?


	⁃	Immunity To Poison
This has always been a touchy subject in Naruto debates. The Question: Is Orochimaru immune to poisons. The Answer: Yes. The Reason Why: Read the below paragraph and see the above scans.

Now Sasori has a poison that takes a while to kick in and can have antidotes used to counter it. Orochimaru has basically the same poison, but a gas version, which kicks in in mere seconds and cannot be countered by anything as even someone who Orochimaru himself had made immune poison couldn't counter it, and Oro stores that poison in his blood, in his true snake body, even when things can affect his 'shell' which we would call his normal body. A particle of Sasori's poison enters your blood and someone starts arranging your funeral immediately. Yet Oro's entire body fluids consist of a poison stronger than that one, so Orochimaru is in fact immune to poison. He made Sasuke immune, he made Anko miimune, hell, after he died Kabuto made himself immune to, so why wouldn't th guy that started it all, the snake theme guy, who's blood is the strongest known poison in the Narutoverse, be able to make himself immune to poison. It would be illogical and just plain stupid if Orochimaru was not immune to poison. And anyway, Tsunade countered Chiyo and Hanzo's poison and Sakura countered Sasori's poison, yet someone immune to poison (and pure immunity > injecting an antidote) got reduced into helpless-ready to be grilled into fodder by the poison which make up Oro's true body's blood stream. First Oral Rebirth being 'taxing' and now Orochimaru not being immune to poison. The baseless misconceptions that people have purposely built up to try and pull Orochimaru down a couple of tiers.  Good lord ..��

	⁃	Other Misconceptions
Misconceptions On Orochimaru's Fighting Style
There is a common misconception that Orochimaru lets himself get hit so he can tank, but this isn't the case. Oro actually can dodge. He dodged attacks from KN4 while in midair. Any attack he got hit with was beyond his control, like when he got sliced in half, only because he punched Kn4 and got into close range by doing so, and it produced a clone fro, it's body, which even a Sharingan user I doubt would be able to react to due to the sheer speed of the attack, which I must note meant nothing to Oro. He dodged against Hiurzen too. There's also misconceptions about arrogance and all that, but I've explained and cleared up that in Part 2 of my essay.  

Misconceptions About Edo Tensei
And by the way I'm sick of the people who say Edo Tensei is a cheat, �� or Oro couldn't fight without summoning dead kages to help him ��. Number 1: Orochimaru used Edo Tensei in one fight. ONE FIGHT. Out of like 7 fights we saw him in over the course of the series, and yet he still kicked major ass. And even so, Edo Tensei is classed as a summoning and Summonings are treated as ninja tools. It's like saying Jiraiya is weaker than Pain's dog summoning, he needed Gamaken to fight. So what? Gamaken contributes to his overall power just like Edo Hashirama & Tobirama, Manda, Aoda and other snake summons contribute to Oro's overall power level. Just clearing that up. Because if using summons or anything classed/treated as the user/owner's ninja tool, then that would make Pain's Animal Path and Tenten the weakest shinobi because they can't do anything. But are any of them fodder? Not at all. Just clearing it up. Because if Edo Tensei or Manda/Snakes allows Orochimaru to defeat someone, then well done to him for being able to controls such powerful summons like Edo's or defeat Manda in order to win his loyalty (It was said that Oro defeated Manda). Here's the scan and I'll talk about this feat's significance later on:
This is a Narutopedia article (Narutopedia gets info from the Databooks for those that can't get their hands on one, like myself) Read the 'Personality' section's second sentence.
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By the way there is also a misconception about Orochimaru's Edo Tensei in Part I which I will talk about later in this thread so don't worry for now.


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## Trojan (Oct 11, 2015)

I wonder who will read all that honestly. 

You could have said "ET GG", and that would have been more than enough honestly.


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## Matty (Oct 11, 2015)

So we have a confirmed Orochimaru fanboy. I'm the Itachi wankers will read every line and dispute it in depth as well.


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## tkpirate (Oct 11, 2015)

Itachi still solos Oro.

But he can't solo your post,no one can.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

PART 4

WHY HE LOST TO ITACHI & HOW HE COULD BEAT HIM GIVEN A CERTAIN SCENARIO
Let's talk about Sasuke again first. Orochimaru won the physical battle. He took it to the mental plane and lost but he could easily have killed Sasuke if he wanted to. This is an Oro that had no ninjutsu and was so sick that he was bedridden and also he needed to change his host body. That same Sasuke, or even EMS Sasuke (as Oro was perceived to be a threat to him) against an Oro who has all his Jutsu, use of his arms, is healthy and at full power with a body that won't fail him, dies straight away. 

Now, I talked about this in the ninjutsu section but Oral Rebirth is a topic that needs to be resolved once and for all. I really want it to sink in so that people take it into consideration when they think out a proper, actual battle between Itachi Uchiha and Orochimaru. People feel the Jutsu is too taxing for Oro to spam but it was his body that was failing him. Besides, Orochimaru can use more Oral Rebirths than Itachi can fire Amaterasu bursts, so Amaterasu = Redundancy (in this particular match up). 

Now back to the point, why did Orochimaru lose to Itachi? Because he wanted his body, not his life. He didn't want to kill him, tried to possess him, and got turned away by the Sharingan. And oh by the way just cos Itachi cut his hand off doesn't mean he's > than Oro. Orochimaru fled because of the Sharingan. He can regenerate via oral rebirth and continue fighting in a scenario like this. Also, Why Oro lost to Sasuke, I've explained it. Why Oro lost to Itachi again, lack of knowledge, appeared as a sitting  duck in the form of Yamata. Because in a real scenario with a fair fight Itachi isn't going to start in V4 Susano'o with Totsuka out while Orochimaru comes out in what he knows to be the middle of nowhere then gets stabbed by Totsuka. Orochimaru said here that he's weaker than Itachi: 
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But said that only after he lost his arms, two Edo souls (Hashi and Tobi by the way) and all of his ninjutsu. Okay. I think so. And that statement, just like when Hiurzen said Minato could beat Oro, without taking Edo Tensei and White Snake Powers into account, which are ultimately what made Orochimaru as powerful as he is. At the end of the day, Hebi Sasuke said he was stronger than Orochimaru too, just like Itachi did. But however, EMS Sasuke admitted he only won due to Oro's severe handicaps. The same should apply to Itachi. Orochimaru did leave because of Itachi, but that's because he failed to take his body, not because he was stronger than him. Orochimaru said Itachi's body was an impossible dream after he got his arms sealed and his Jutsu taken away. It's messy, but at the end of the day Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya who Itachi admitted inferiority to. Orochimaru was slated to be a threat to EMS Sasuke, who is better than MS Sasuke, who is better than Taka Sasuke, who is better than Hebi Sasuke, who defeated Alive Itachi. Edo Itachi only appeared to be stronger than EMS Sasuke because he had infinite chakra, no illness and seemingly limitless eyesight until he used Izanami. That's basically the equivalent of Alive Health EMS Itachi. But the only living form of Itachi is Alive Sick MS Itachi. That Itachi is weaker than Orochimaru. 

Itachi / Hebi Sasuke >>> Immobile Oro / Sick Oro / No Arms + No Jutsu Oro / Oro That Needs A New Host Body

Itachi / Hebi Sasuke <<< Prime Orochimaru

Funny thing is I used to think Itachi > Orochimaru, even though I'm a fan of Orochimaru (he's my no. 1 fav, others are Sasori, Kakuzu, EMS Madara And Tsunade), but now I think differently. 

Finally found this scan by the way:
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Moving on though ...

Yes, Oro got soloed, twice:
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But Naruto's win over Pain wasn't legit either. Pain > Naruto, but while Pain had been fighting a village all day looking for Naruto, Naruto came starting in SM, Three Boss Toads summoned + Ma & Pa, Fully rested, has eaten, fresh out of training, knowledge on Pain's abilities all luxuries Jiraiya didn't really have, yet Jiraiya > Pain, as Nagato said, provided that Jiraiya had the knowledge. (Which shows SM Jiraiya > SM Naruto, which I walls believed since day one as SM is a Multiplier like SSJ from DBZ, and Naruto's initial power level < Jiriaya's initial power level. Same again with Naruto vs Kakuzu, Itachi vs Sasuke. Several factors affect a battle. You can have a stronger ability than someone but still lose a fight. MS (Albeit Edo) Itachi was stronger than EMS Sasuke as shown by their performance but if that happened again then Itachi would be weaker because Sasuke got stronger still. 

Yes, it was said Oro was inferior:
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Orochimaru said he "Can't beat the Sharingan user who is heir to the Uchiha clan". That is my friend, Itachi Uchiha. Again, Orochimaru said this after he lost his arms and techniques. 

What people need to understand is that an Uchiha never beat a full powered Oro. It was either, "(In Pain) MY ARMS!!' or "My body is giving up on me!" or "I'm bedridden and have no Jutsu!!!!". The Orochimaru that Hiruzen fought, in full health, all abilities available, would never lose to someone that couldn't beat Hebi Sasuke. Pain's win over Jiraiya wasn't legit so people realise that Jiraiya is actually stronger than Pain. Why can't we do the same for Orochimaru and Itachi. The Sannin are a tier above Akatsuki. This was proved by Itachi's own statement. Why can people not realise this. 

Maybe the first Itachi Vs Oro fight was longer than we thought:

Itachi knew about Oral Rebirth. How? Itachi knew about Yamata no Jutsu. How? Or maybe they fought alongside each other. I mean, how else would Kisame know how strong a Sannin is without actually meeting one and seeing their powers. Orochimaru is the only Sannin he's met. And Itachi knew about such Jutsu and knew how strong a Sannin was and said he, Kisame, and 'backup' would have to die as well if they were to bring down Jiraiya, a Sannin, who is weaker than Orochimaru. When was it ever said or implied Itachi was better than Prime Orochimaru. He fought an immobile Orochimaru and one whose body must have been giving up on him. Itachi said he was stronger and vice versa, but Orochimaru admitted inferiority when all his ninjutsu was taken away from him. Itachi claimed superiority knowing about Orochimaru's immortality body transfer techniques and their drawbacks. He also knew about the seal on Orochimaru's arms and the fact he was tied to Sasuke's neck, otherwise, why would Itachi have felt so confident in luring Orochimaru out and defeating him? Unless you want to tell me the Itachi that fought Sasuke could defeat the Orochimaru that Hiruzen fought, plus the abilities he showed in his Part I and Part II fights with Naruto and Sasuke, plus the stupidly overpowered summons he showed in his fight with Jiraiya and Tsunade, and his attack on the leaf, including Manda, Hashirama, Tobirama. That's what I call 'Prime Orochimaru'. You read this paragraph again and you tell me if Itachi can beat Prime Orochimaru. Itachi who has 3 shots at MS, can barely dodge Shuriken and Katon, and will die if he used V4 Susano'o while anything lower will just bring him to death's door. 

And the physical evidence is in Itachi's favour, but like I said, Orochimaru was not trying to harm Itachi. What's the point in killing or injuring the body that you're going to move your soul into. Orochimaru with Killing Intent and knowledge of Totsuka (Orochimaru knows about it, just didn't know it was in Itachi's Susano'o's possession) would most definitely defeat Itachi. That's what this whole thread is about. 

Combine all the evidence concerning the main people in this thread and we get the most controversial power triangle in Naruto history:
OROCHIMARU > JIRAIYA > ITACHI > OROCHIMARU. 
The only way this equation can be solved is by taking Oro out somewhere. Not at the beginning, but at the end, because more evidence suggests Orochimaru is superior to Jiraya and more powerful than Itachi than evidence would imply full power Orochimaru is explicitly weaker than Itachi. Because at the end of the day, No one in this universe can tell me Itachi >>> Orochimaru, who was stronger than Jiriaya (who had the capacity to defeat Nagato, said in canon by Nagato himself, and has been stated by Itachi himself to be stronger than Itachi and Kisame combined, and that even with more members of Akatsuki, that Itachi still wouldn't be able to do anything to him), stronger by far than Hiruzen (who was by a milestone the strongest Gokage among Third Raikage, Yagura, Gaara Sr. And Ōnoki, pretty much canonically proven), slated as a threat to EMS Sasuke (who is virtually on the same level as the Itachi in question if not stronger, because he was only weaker than Edo Itachi, who had infinite chakra, didn't care to spam izanami as he was dead anyway, could spam Amaterasu as his eyes didn't bleed, showing he had unlimited eyesight, so Edo Itachi was virtually the equivalent of what an alive EMS Itachi would be, and EMS Sasuke > MS Sasuke > Hebi Sasuke > Alive Itachi in Part II), the strongest of the legendary Sannin (Itachi said one Sannin could take on two Akatsuki members and win, and at the end of the day, taking the whole manga into account like i have in this massive post, I don't see why this can't be true), and finally, Minato's rival for hokage (barely, because in fact Orochimaru was first choice. Minato was third. Remember that Jiriaya was second choice? If anything, Jiraiya was Orochimaru's rival for hokage, and was in general life anyway. They were like the Naruto and Sasuke of their generation. And Tsunade was gone at the time so Minato very well could have been fourth choice had Tsuande chosen to stick around.)

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I don't like this. At all. Itachi says "All your jutsus are worthless before these eyes" but if that's so true, then why is it that Orochimaru was a threat to EMS Sasuke. Why is it that Oral Rebirth countered one of Itachi's best attacks, and could probably counter the others. Why is it that even after being sealed, Orochimaru was able to come back. And I've said this before, but way I see it, Orochimaru and Itachi are like a human and a venomous snake. Ironically, in this situation, I'm talking about Oro as the human and Itachi as the snake. There are certain situations in which the human can't win (such as oro vs Itachi twice) but that doesn't mean the snake is stronger than th human, as the human is the more developed organism (Oro has one of the most diverse, completed skill sets out there while Itachi, while stupidly powerful, has a limited Arsenal, similar to Sasori, who was sickly, and I mean sickly strong, but didn't have a wide Arsenal. That's what he died. Oro on the other hand, has never been killed. Sasuke sealed him in his consciousness then when he resurfaced Itachi sealed him in the Sakegari Jar. Oro has never come even close to death, even when Hiurzen tried his best. That makes him powerful too. I mean, even Hashirama Senju was killed in battle, Tobirama was, Madara was, people that are 'stronger' than Oro, yet Oro is unkillable [thats not even a word, is it?]. There are about 5 techniques in th NV that can kill Orochimaru (A Bijuudama, Itachi's Totsuka No Tsurugi Fuuin, Danzo's Ura Shisho Fuin, Minato/Hiruzen's Shiki Fuujin and Pain/Gedo Mazo's Soul Removal) Can't think of any others. PS Slash or Shinsuusenju punch maybe. If there's any others please remind me in the discussion. Itachi canonically has one way of killing Oro, yet Oro can kill Itachi with almost anything as he's a regular human being unlike the demon Orochimaru. So how this image is true, I do not know:
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Itachi has one legitimate way of defeating Orochimaru and that is not even killing, it's sealing, but if the following happens to Itachi he dies: bitten by any snake (poison), crushed by snake, inhales paralytic toxins, pierced/crushed/suffocated by Edo Hashirama's Mokuton, drowned by Edo Tobirama's suiton, swallowed by a boss snake, not the kind that swallows Naruto in the forest of death, run over by a boss snake while they slither, pierced by Kusanagi anywhere between his stomach and his forehead, bitten by 15 curse marks, strangled by tongue like Orochimaru was going to do to Tsunade before she used her Herculean strength to reel Oro in and sock him in the face. There's probably 1000 other ways to die against Orochimaru so if anything it's the opposite way round because while Orochimaru has never been killed, and only  we all saw a 3 Tomoe Sharingan user outlast Itachi, an MS user in battle to this:
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Which shows that he really wasn't that great (as it was emphasised by so many people, ranging from White Zetsu, to Itachi himself, that a Sharingan user could never beat a Mangekyo wielder. Black Zetsu then corrected them and said "The Sharingan is a ninja tool. It is only as strong as the one who uses it. An expert with a pebble can defeat a novice with a Shuriken". I couldn't have said it better. This is why EMS Madara > Itachi. Itachi and Nagato. The latter two may have better skills on paper, but Madara is the better shinobi. The longest ever thread I've ever seen in Naruto Forums history is EMS Madara vs Nagato and it went on so long because people didn't understand this one statement. Itachi has the flashy Totsuka sword and all this stuff, but even though I think Orochimaru has even better abilities overall, it doesn't matter because Orochimaru was a genius ninja, called a Sannin, nominated for Hokage, unlike Itachi, created his own village, had the power to take down an entire country like his Akatsuki partner Sasori, has the 3rd strongest summon in the NV (number 2 is the upgraded version and number 1 is a Bijuu so it's not bad at all that Manda is number 3), can use Edo Tensei to reincarnate the God of Shinobi and the 2nd fastest ninja / best Suiton user of all time to fight for him, has A Rank Curse Seals and Sealing Jutsu techniques, the Rashomon Gates, a plethora of regular snake summons and boss summons, immunity to poison, has produce the best poison in his true form, transform into an 8 headed giant snake that can regenerate, can normally regenerate from any wound, can deal with being cut in half, can tank the same punches that trolled the Raikage's punches and shattered Madara Uchiha's Susano'o Ribcage that was said to be sturdier than Sasuke's or Itachi's, and knocked down his V3 legged susano'o like a plank of wood, has speed equal to weightless Lee, is flexible and can dodge in midair, and has the sword of Kusanagi that can extend longer than forests, and can cut diamond. That's Orochimaru's arsenal. Itachi's arsenal is a practically featless Genjutsu that gives you psychological damage, Amaterasu's black flames, paralysis Genjutsu, illusion Genjutsu, kunai, Shurikenjutsu with or without fire enhancement, a sword that seals, a shield that repels and a bright orange guardian angel to fight and defend on his behalf. Who do you feel honestly has the better arsenal, Itachi, or Orochimaru? And let me add that Itachi is human with a terminal illness and is near blind while Orochimaru is immortal in about 6 ways, and surprisingly, there are 6 techniques in the Narutoverse that can be used to kill/put down Orochimaru for good. Itachi has ONE of those techniques, and his only feats are hitting an immobile Oro and immobile Nagato. 
And what was the point in Itachi sealing Orochimaru?:
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From Shiki Fujin to Totsuka Blade. Oro has a way out of it all. Oro played around in battle because he taught his subordinates how to resurrect him. Another addition to the long list of ways in which Orochimaru is immortal, while Itachi has terminal illness. While Itachi is dead now and just an afterthought Orochimaru is still alive to this day. Irrelevant to this thread, but any ways ....

At the end of the day, Itachi was hyped and never lived up to it. Because it isn't true that all of Orochimaru's Jutsu are useless to Itachi, otherwise Itachi would never have said someone weaker than Orochimaru is superior in strength to himself. Orochimaru on the other hand did live up to his hype. At 100% power, a healthy body, all his Jutsu available and full use of his arms, Orochimaru would never lose to Itachi in a legitimate battle where Orochimaru isn't an immobile sitting duck asking to be hit by Totsuka. 

COUNTERS TO ITACHIS ABILITIES AND VICE VERSA
Now, it all boils down to this: Who can win in a fight. It's simple for me really. Sharingan Genjutsu gets broken out of. If Oro gets damaged, he regenerates. (If Genjutsu was so great, why didn't Madara use it on the 5 Kage? Because the Gokage had trained themselves to counter it. They are too high level to be beaten by standard Genjutsu. And Orochimaru is more or less stronger than all of them combined). Taijutsu is a non factor against Oro. Amaterasu is a problem solved by Oral Rebirth quicker than 2 + 2 is solved by an A Grade Maths student. Any Susano'o under V4 (V1: Ribcage, V2: Skeleton, V3: Humanoid, V4: Armoured) is a non factor, as Orochimaru has a plethora of summons to deal with them. Look this scan:
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Susano'o is about one fifth of the size of a regular boss snakes head. It gets crushed. Kusanagi can also pierce it. Anyone who wants to say 'prove it', should first prove to me that Itachi's Susano'o is more durable than diamond:
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Kongou Nyoi translates to Adamantine (literally unbreakable) Staff. Diamond is unbreakable. Oh wait! It's not. Because Kusanagi can pierce diamond and anything that is not as durable as it, as such as Itachi's Susano'o. Anyone beg to differ?
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Read middle paragraph, second sentence, as databook-sourced proof. 
It says "... can cut through almost anything. Even Enma, who is able to transform into a diamond-hard staff, noted that th the Kusanagi blade would leave him considerably sore. It should be noted that Orochimaru's Kusanagi could not pierce Naruto Uzumaki's four-tailed form." It's understandable that Kusanagi couldn't pierce KN4 as it was the Nine Tails' chakra condensed into a small form. Kyuubi's Chakra is way more powerful than the portion of Itachi's chakra which forms Susano'o, and is widely spread out whereas KN4 is small and condensed. Kusanagi is piercing Itachi's Susano'o, since Danzo used a B rank Fuuton to get through Sasuke's Susano'o which is composed of chakra that came directly from Indra Ōtsutsuki. 

Nothing suggests Susano'o > Diamond in terms of durability and until someone proves that it is, Kusanagi is breaking though any part of any form of Itachi's Susano'o that isn't covered by Yata (which can only cover above Susano'o, in front of it, and the right hand side since that's the hand that holds it, so left side, under and behind are vulnerable, and the latter two are places Orochimaru likes to attack from, and while Orochimaru canonically cut diamond wielding sword, when using it via his mouth he can apply so much blunt force that it sent KN4 flying through a forest and into a mountain range and since Susano'o probably isn't as durable as tightly condensed Kyuubi chakra Orochimaru drills right though it with his diamond splitting blade). With ribcage Susano'o Orochimaru slices through it like a hot knife through butter. I mean, the Raikage did it with his hand so a diamond cutting sword can definitely do it:

Raikage's hand, Danzo's Fuuton, Tsunade's Punch ... None of this can break diamond and has ever been implied to be able to achieve a feat close to that, yet the Kusanagi cut Enma when wielded normally. When used orally, Orochimaru could apply enough blunt force to send a mini Kyuubi flying through a forest and into a mountain range. Kusanagi cuts through any form of Itachi's Susano'o easily. Madara's ribcage made Itachi and Sasuke's look like sh*t. Raikage broke Sasuke's alone yet when made heavier and fast by Ōnoki could not even scratch Madara's ribcage. Madara's ribcage could very well be equal to Itachi's armoured Susano'o in durability if you speculate. And Tsunade's punch can't break diamond until proven to be able to, yet Kusanagi when wielded normally can, and becomes stronger if used the way it was used on KN4. Why am I bothering with this anyway? Orochimaru can just attack from under the ground, or have a snake or Edo Hashirama's Mokuton pull Itachi out of Susano'o. Forget Totsuka, since it's only feats are hitting immobile people that were standing in front of Itachi. Orochimaru will constantly be in the move or will be at a great distance. Look at the size of Susano'o. It's smaller than Aoda's head. If Orochimaru stands on top of Manda's head Totsuka won't be able to reach him. Manda is too fast to be hit by Totsuka. Totsuka is redundant in this fight. Manda can shed his skin to get out of Amaterasu (he did it for Toad Flame Bombs, and completely tanked C0) and Genjutsu is useless since Orochimaru can pour his chakra into Manda in order to snap him out. Itachi won't be able to see Orochimaru when he is standing on Manda's head which can reach higher heights than the head of a Tailed Beast, so if Manda comes out, Itachi pretty much is set up to lose the fight. Orochimaru can just have a joyride on Manda's head, dodging all of Itachi's attacks while he has the First and Second Hokage to deal with, two wartime era Kages who are trained in dealing with Uchiha's. And when I say Uchiha's, I mean ones better than Itachi, such as Izuna and Madara. Mokuton tangles Itachi and chucks him out of Susano'o like a baseball, then Tobirama picks up the bat (no I mean his sword, or kunai) and scores a home run (no, I mean he finishes Itachi with Hiraishingiri [Flying Thunder God Slash]) and calls it a day. 

Gogyo Fuin is troublesome for Itachi if it hits. Cursed seal is too. Yata Mirror is like an algebra problem for an E Grade Maths student. It can't be solved by normal means. So Oro goes simply under Susano'o and does what he did with the Kusanagi to KN4. That doesn't work? Leave Kusanagi there and manipulate it like he did against Hourzen inside the Susano'o while Oro stands outside it or turns it into a snake like he did here: 

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If Orochimaru keeps Susano'o busy with a boss snake or some Edo's, he can spit this into Susano'o's back and break into it like Danzo did, and then control it to it Itachi in the head. This sounds convenient but if I really believed Orochimaru couldn't defeat Itachi then I would never had made this thread. Or Orochimaru could control the sword to hit the front. Orochimaru summons Manda on top of Susano'o. It will crush it, because the Manda is way stronger than the Three Giant Snakes who have shown strength feats better than Tsunade (they broke a wall which CST couldn't, and CST has more power than Tsunade's punch, which broke Madara's Susanoo' Ribcage, and knocked down his Humanoid V3 Legged Susano'o like it was nothing, and Raikage's punch pushed back Madara's V2 Susano'o a huge distance but didn't break it, had it been Tsunade she would have shattered it) so Itachi will put Yata above its head like an umbrella to hold Manda back, and while the front of Susano'o is unguarded, Orochimaru spits Kusanagi to pierce into Susano'o and hit Itachi in the gut. If Orochimaru gets hit by Totsuka (Which probably won't happen [Ive already talked about how Orochimaru has good speed and can dodge even in midair]) he escapes Oral Rebirth (When Totsuka hit Orochimaru, Itachi said "Alright Sasuke. Have you got anything else" then Orochimaru said "ku ku ku ... Do you really think a little cut like this can defeat me?" And then the sealing activated. Same as with Nagato, Itachi said, "I'm about to seal you now, any last words?" And then Nagato had time to talk to Naruto about Jiraiya and all that stuff before he got sealed. However, it takes Orochimaru one or two seconds to regurgitate a new body, and then the old body would just get sealed. But it's really irrelevant, since an Orochimaru that isn't immobile can just dodge

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This is what Orochimaru can do with Kusanagi to help attack by having the snake follow Itachi, burrow under his Susano'o etc, and then turn back into a sword that can be levitated and swung into the back (or front) of his head. Note that Sai couldn't even react to the initial attack. I'm not saying Itachi is slower than Sai, and yes, there is Sharingan precognition, but the sword can be turned into a fast snake or just be levitated in the air and controlled from a distance, which will allow it to hit Itachi. While he's dodging all this he won't be able to put Orochimaru in Genjutsu, giving Orochimaru time to summon Edo Hashirama, Edo Tobirama, put the tags in, and hell, maybe even summon a boss snake to complete the team. Itachi loses the battle. 

Totsuka is a problem that is easily solvable. Oh I didn't consider Katons. Oro or small snake summons tank:
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Katons and Yasaka Magatama are useless since Deidara's bombs are more potent and more explosive than them, also dealing a shockwave, unlike a Katon Fireball. 
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And these are fodder snakes. Just saying. (So what happens if Manda comes out?

Back to Totsuka, blocks with Rashomon, dodges, etc etc etc. He's not a sitting target this time like he was here:
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I haven't even considered Edo Tensei. If Itachi tries to seal with Totsuka it leaves him open while he's sealing. Susano'o is anchored and if Kusanagi snipe happens, Itachi must dodge to survive. If he jumps out of Susano'o, Manda soloes. Amaterasu is a non factor to him due to skin shed but he can be controlled, but how many snakes can Itachi control, because Oro has A LOT of summons. He can seal one Edo at a time which is troublesome. Hashirama's mokuton can bind Susano'o and absorb its chakra. Senju (of that era) are trained in dealing with Uchiha while Itachi can't say the same. Didn't consider Tobirama in all of that. 

Now what does Itachi do against multiple bijuu sized summons. He has nothing besides Totsuka that would make Orochimaru summon a Rashomon in the first place. His counter to Gogyo Fuin if it hits? Nothing. His answer to a curse Mark if it hits? Nothing. His answer to Manda? Control. Can Itachi control multiple creatures? No. If he controls Manda and Oro summons all his other snakes? K.O. Itachi. And by the way, using Manda against Oro amounts to nothing. It was stated Manda only follows Oro because Oro defeated him in battle. Presumably without other snake summons because that would be like Orochimaru telling Kakashi to slap Hiruzen in the face. It would never happen. And Oro got Manda before he got Edo Tensei, as he had him during the time the Sannin fought Hanzo, and didn't have all his white snake powers, and presumably his immunity to poison, so Oro's got tricks up his sleeve even with his basic arsenal. This is the scan of Oro summoning Manda before he got overpowered: 
Showing he has the power to defeat something the size of a bijuu, stronger than Gamabunta, fastest summon in the NV bar Manda II (a slightly improved version) and do it all without hax(not that Orochimaru has much hax, but just has very useful Jutsu):

Izanami: Orochimaru Isn't Trying To Be Anyone But Himself. So Izanami is redundant in a fight against Orochimaru and pretty much 95% if not 99% of the Narutoverse. Plus, Izanami takes charge time and Itachi actually had to get hit in order for it to be set up, and needed help from EMS Sasuke, the nerfed version of the God of Shinobi's rival. 

Now the biggest argument of all time when it comes to how Itachi can defeat Oro without using Totsuka. Many people's answer is Tsukuyomi, and I'd like to explore deeper into this in a whole separate section of my essay;


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

PART 5
THE CONTROVERSY FOR ALL WHO QUESTION ITACHI'S POWER LEVEL: TSUKUYOMI

Now, this is going to be probably the most discussed, most controversial and most interesting issue of my Orochimaru > Itachi debate. Tsukuyomi. Let's get some background on the technique and the ill dissect in between to form my arguments, and then afterwards put some of my own personal views in, via logical, rational analysis. 

Now before I start, there is a common misconception that Orochimaru has a weakness to Genjutsu because of what happened here: 
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What? So bloody what? Orochimaru got caught in a PARALYSIS GENJUTSU yet was STILL ABLE TO MOVE and GOT HIS HAND CUT OFF, A HAND WHICH HE COULD REGENERATE BY COUGHING UP A NEW BODY. The same thing could happen to anyone in the verse, from Jiraiya to Ōnoki and from Nagato to maybe even Hashirama Senju. And the funny thing is that besides Hashirama the rest of them would be 'hand-less' for life. Jiriaya got an arm blown off by Pain:
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Yet virtually the same thing from Naruto meant nothing to Orochimaru:
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Because he can regenerate (the rod stabs that killed Jiraiya are useless to Oro too):
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So why does him getting your hand cut off by Itachi mean anything. Because it's Itachi? 
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Because he is God?
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Well no he's not, because he got pushed to his limit by 3 Tomoe Hebi Sasuke. Jiraiya was pushed to his limit by Pain when he had no knowledge of his abilities and could have beaten him with Intel. And Jiriaya has repeatedly, taking into account everything he is capable of, both admitted, and shown on panel inferiority to Orochimaru. If Jiriaya > Pain who or what would it take to push Orochimaru to his limits, because if he went all out with all of his abilities, he would be above Jiraiya by a significant margin. That's the thing I like about him. We never saw him go all out and get pushed to his limit. He had all the dirt on Pain, Tobi and the rest of Akatsuki (the only thing he didn't know was that Itachi had Susano'o, stupid really, just because Kishimoto wanted Itachi to win). He could have beaten him, canonically. Like I said before who,  or what would it take for Orochimaru to get pushed to his limit and show us the Kinjutsu we were never lucky enough to see (the series is about Sharingan > MS > EMS > EMSSJ2 > EMSSJ3).


Kurenai (a Genjutsu specialist who pretty much devoted her life to Genjutsu mastery) would have suffered the same 'defeat' (or worse) if you even want to call it a defeat. 

Orochimaru does not have a weakness for Genjutsu. Orochimaru has a 5 for Genjutsu in the Databooks. 5 is the highest stat for any skill. Funny thing is, Kurenai does too. She tried to do something to Itachi just like Orochimaru did and got punished for it with Genjutsu reflection. Remember the whole tree thingy. I'll just show you:
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Does that mean Kurenai has a weakness to Genjutsu, no. Because pretty much anyone that's not an Uchiha has a weakness to Genjutsu in general but especially Sharingan Genjutsu. Deidara can take down kages easily yet because of Sharingan and its Genjutsu he becomes redundant in fights against the Uchiha. Similar to Orochimaru's situation in some aspects but not all. It doesn't matter how experience as a ninja you have (Deidara in his teens, Kurenai in her 30s, Orochimaru in his 40s at the time and in his 50s nowadays). You get stomped. Luckily enough Orochimaru knew he was in a paralysis Genjutsu and attempted to release himself out of it. Deidara, he was oblivious. And this is the Deidara that used a scope to train his eye in some weird method to be resistant to Genjutsu, and still got trolled by Sasuke. Genjutsu was the ultimate reason why Danzo lost to Sasuke, and has 11 Sharingan one of which was MS. Orochimaru had none of that yet MOVED DURING PARALYSIS. INDUCED BY ITACHI UCHIHA'S GENJUTSU. WHY IS THIS FEAT OVERLOOKED? Maybe because Orochimaru as a whole is overlooked and underrated. Think about it, Kurenai, a Genjutsu specialist, Deidara, supposed to be immune, Danzo, has 11 f*cking Sharingan. All of these people were helpless to Genjutsu from Itachi or Sasuke. I'll give Kurenai the benefit of the doubt because despite being fodder in a sense, she got out of the Genjutsu. I mean, it was hers in the first place so maybe that makes sense, yet Orochimaru, who had no innate advantage where it came to Genjutsu, has shown to be able to adapt and counter better than any of the anti-Genjutsu ninja I just listed. This is why Orochimaru was such a great shinobi. For little reasons and overlooked feats like this. He could even use his Killing Intent (not classified as Jutsu, uses no chakra, just a general skill, Zabuza had it too, it's something you're born with or develop in early life till adulthood) which was like a Genjutsu, and very powerful, enough to paralyse the likes of Sasuke, Anko and Kakashi (solid Jōnin level ninja), so imagine what he could do with an actual Genjutsu (though ninjutsu was his  forte). I'm sorry, but Orochimaru is the student of Hiruzen (who could fight while blinded by Hashirama Senju's Hax Genjutsu, Kokuangyo No Jutsu), and teammate of Jiraiya (look at his Genjutsu feats against Pain) and Tsunade (who can heal the effects of Tsukuyomi, the most powerful Genjutsu in the world in terms of damaging someone [Kotoamatsukami is useless in combat] and was stated to be the most powerful Genjutsu, which makes sense, as Uchiha were the Genjutsu people like Uzumaki were Fuinjutsu, and Tsukuyomi was like their equivalent to Shiki Fujin although there were others like Izanami and Minato's Hakke Fuin) and Orochimaru had powerful Genjutsu-esque feats without even using Genjutsu (he didn't need to waste chakra to make Kakashi and Sasuke wet themselves), has a 5 in the Databooks, just like Kurenai and JUST LIKE ITACHI. He is not weak to Genjutsu. Tsukuyomi is the only Genjutsu Itachi has that might even give Orochimaru the time of day if it had any real feats (and I'll explain below why it doesn't have 'real feats'). So maybe Itachi isn't the Genjutsu God after all. Because let's face it. Tsukuyomi despite its reputation is featless in determining its effect on a non-sharingan user (which I will elaborate on in this entire section, part 5 of my essay), Kotoamatsukami is featless in terms of combat application and I don't know why I'm talking about it as it doesn't even belong to Itachi and Izanami only works on people who are trying to escape destiny. Orochimaru is the opposite. He isn't trying to be anyone but himself and controls his own destiny. So consider all this before you say, Itachi one-shotted Orochimaru and can and will do it again. Because this is wrong. 

Now. This is Kishimoto sourced - databook info sourced - Naruto wiki sourced info:
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Okay. 
Tsukuyomi requires eye contact to be performed.
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Now, as comical and as stupid as this may look, this is a potential counter to Tsukuyomi. 
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I mean, just look how high Orochimaru can raise his heads in what, three seconds? If Itachi gets close Oro can do this and while his body is still on the ground he can make hand seals and fight and do whatever he needs to do. Not very practical, yes, but still a possibility, because Orochimaru is a unique fighter who has a style all to himself (which Kabuto copied and used to almost solo to Uchiha at the same time, one of which is Itachi Uchiha, the guy I'm referencing in this thread). All Itachi can do is cut his head off, but then if he does Orochimaru uses oral rebirth from the elongated head and summons a snake midair, as he's shown feats to summon midair as has Naruto. Here are the scans:
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Here, Orochimaru was standing on a tree branch and hasn't moved from that height in terms of level, showing that even when high up or in midair, Orochimaru's snakes are so big that they can still touch the ground while Orochimaru remains high up in the air. 
Link removed & 18
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So even then, what can be done. 

Because in a situation like this, Itachi's only answer would be to resort to Susano'o, which exhausts his chakra reserves, stamina, life force and eye sight. 

And if Orochimaru is mounted this high on one of his snakes ....
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(Look at the houses on the left hand side. Itachi would be on one of those balconies. When he is that small in comparison, what the hell can he do to these snakes? Amaterasu? No - Skin Shed. Totsuka? No - Not Close Enough + It Is Actually Possible To Dodge A Sword Strike - Or Block It With Chakra Hardened Snake Scales [Yes, Snakes have Jutsu too, not just Toads and Slugs]. Genjutsu? No - Orochimaru snaps them out like Hachibi snaps out Bee, Tenten snaps out Lee, Ōnoki snaps out Raikage. Katon: Gōkyaku no Jutsu? Lol no. It's fodder to these snakes. The tips of those snakes' tongues are the same length as a human being. They could lick Itachi to death.)
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(or even higher considering these snakes were curled up and crouched down).
.... then what does Itachi do. He can control one summon with his eyes but not multiple, as not even Madara has shown feats to be able to do this, assuming it was even easy for him to tame the Kyuubi in the first place. Against the three giant snakes in particular, Itachi has no counter but to resort to Susano'o, which exhausts his chakra reserves, stamina, life force and eye sight. And who cares about controlling snakes. Orochimaru can snap them out just like Killer B and Hachibi use the 'partner method' that any two people or beings can use to snap each other out of any Genjutsu no matter how powerful it is, because Genjutsu relies on manipulating people's chakra to create illusions in their mind, and if this is interrupted by external chakra, whether it's Magen: Gamarinshō (which all Pain's 3 paths sadly got caught in so couldn't use the partner method) or its Tsukuyomi (the reputedly world's most powerful Genjutsu [by Part I standards, it's not called this anymore and I'm not sure why, I hope they don't think Kotoamatsukami surpassed it!]), the Genjutsu can be broken. Orochimaru has Edo's to do the partner method with. Edo's are immune to Genjutsu (Eternal Tsukuyomi failed to work on them) so that just makes things even easier.

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Well then. Let's continue. 

... trapping the target within an illusion completely under the user's control. 

You mean like this:
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Where it states the body's freedom is taken away. Because that's what Itachi did, physically and mentally, but you know, Orochimaru is Orochimaru so even when he was paralysed he didn't care and just started moving anyway. With no one to help him. However Orochimaru had a snake in his sleeve at the time he confronted Itachi. Is it possible that snake could pour chakra into Orochimaru? Who knows. But either way, what Orochimaru did is still an independent feat no one but himself received credit for. 

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Two sentences in and I'm already breaking this tech down. It says it's of similar power to Amaterasu, which means nothing to Oro (due to Oral Rebirth). Maybe Kishi is trying to tell us something ... 
 Anyway, he can alter time, torture blah blah, This results in the victim suffering psychological trauma. This is the key sentence for me. It makes seconds of torture seem like days and causes psychological trauma. Now, in the Genjutsu, Itachi stuck swords into Kakashi's stomach. This would cause him pain in real life. He felt it. So his brain reacted to it. He screamed. If you stick a sword into Oro's belly, provided he doesn't tank it, how much pain would he actually feel? See what I'm getting at. He's had his arm get slapped off. He's been torn on half. He's been partially disintegrated. He laughed all of that off. He's tanked a punch from Tsunade. He wasn't laughing, but Orochimaru couldn't have a happy face at the time as his rotting arms were paining him. He was cut up in his snake form by Sasuke. He laughed and got up as a head. He got pierced by the Sword of Totsuka. He laughed again but didn't find it funny when he got sealed tho. What I'm trying to say is he'll be laughing in the Genjutsu, not screaming like Kakashi. Orochimaru made himself highly susceptible to pain to the point he almost seems immune to it. Therefore, the psychological effect will be bliss, not trauma. Sounds hard to believe, but think logically about it. There was an experiment once where a man was made immune to all senses but touch and sound. He was told we was going to be cut with a knife. Someone poured water on his arm. The arm got wounded. Look it up. See how the mind acts. If you feel you're being stabbed, your mind, which knows this can hurt you, wants to warn you. Orochimaru's mind only warns him to escape danger when a KN4 Bijuu bomb is being charged up. He tanked Tsunade's punch and laughed. Yet he said one punch could kill Kabuto. And also, I'm an college a grade psychology student who just aced his last test. I also study literature so when Kishimoto uses literature to say Snake > Frog > Itachi he knows what he's talking about. I can count on it. I study philosophy too and because of that I know how to analyse a text properly. And economics isn't relevant but it means I know how to count numbers. Itachi's power level: 8000. Orochimaru's Power Level: Over 9000!
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"So Sasuke, Even Though You Have EMS Now, Still Watch Out For Lord Orochimaru". 
Manga Proof. (Lol)

So no I'm not crazy and yes I definitely do know exactly what I'm talking about. And I don't even need to be a psychology student to understand pain and how it works. Nor does anyone whose reading this. So for a third reason now, Tsukuyomi is made redundant and I really don't need to keep going but I will just so it sinks in. 

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Let's carry on shall we. (Itachi fans'll wish I'd never started reading this)
After Itachi used it on Kakashi in Part I, Kisame was surprised that Kakashi's mind is in tact. 
Willpower comes from the mind. Orochimaru has a stronger willpower than Kakashi and multiple minds since a part of his mind is in each cursed seal, and he has control over his mind/soul since he can move it into another body if he wants to. Genjutsu affects your chakra flow. Orochimaru's chakra capacity >>>>>>>> Kakashi (seeing Orochimaru's aura made Kakashi pee in his pants:
Link removed (+ Pg. 12 & 13) And then
Link removed (Page 1, 2 & 3)
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Kakashi imagines his head being cut off, just like when Sakura and Sasuke pictured kunais flying into their brains. It's because the mere prospect that Orochimaru could literally snap his fingers and kill Kakashi, was a prospect that slapped him right in the face. That's how killing intent works. As for what it does, it creates an image of death. 

Orochimaru's Sakki (Killing Intent) was enough for Kakashi to say he could at least compete with him, to then saying it wasn't even worth it and that he was kidding himself. It's like when an E Grade Maths Student says they can solve University-Level Algebraic equations, then they open the exam paper and realise they were kidding themselves so bad it's not even funny. And what did Kakashi know Orochimaru could do before putting himself so below him? Did Kakashi know about the following:
	⁃	Oral Rebirth
	⁃	White Snake + its poisons
	⁃	Yamata no Orochi
	⁃	Stretching/bending body
	⁃	Perfected Cursed Seals
	⁃	Gogyo Fuin??? (Dunno about this one)
	⁃	Edo Tensei (Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju)
	⁃	Sword of Kusanagi???? (Maybe he knew cos Hiruzen/Enma did)
Oro acquired a lot of powerhouse techniques after he left Konoha. And yet Kakashi without knowing any of this said basically 'this guy could kill me in two seconds without even trying'. The difference between Jiraiya and Kakashi should show you the difference between Orochimaru and Kakashi. Part 1 Kakashi would have been one-moved by Pain but someone weaker than Orochimaru, who is Jiriaya, can defeat him albeit with knowledge, but the way Nagato enforced it, he said 'we never would have won' as in Jiraiya is legitimately >> Six Paths of Pain. And Jiraiya < Oro. Did Oro know everything Kakashi could do. 1) There's not a lot Kakashi had at the time so maybe. 2) Orochimaru was a 'people-watcher'. Wasn't he spying on Itachi while he was in the gym or doing shurikenjutsu practice or something like that. 3) Even so, while nothing Part 1 Kakashi had was relevant to Orochimaru, everything Orochimaru had was something that could dig six feet into the ground, box Kakashi up, and send him down. The relevance of this? Itachi Uchiha. Itachi was stronger than Kakashi, but by what degree. Kakashi said these exact words: "Ugh. Compete with him? Am I an idiot?" But felt he could fight Itachi with no problems. He didn't know about MS, no, but however, Itachi has to use one of his three best Jutsu to put down Kakashi, and Kakashi wasn't as scared of him as he was Oro so we get Kakashi < Itachi and Kakashi <<<<<< Oro. We can remove some arrows when it comes to Itachi and Kakashi not knowing he had MS, but while Oro has a lot to put Kakashi down, Itachi had 3 techniques in his Arsenal which could successfully do it: Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o because Kakashi can counter Genjutsu and fireball easily, whereas Kakashi didn't even have part I speed feats to dodge Sen'ei Jashu, which caught both Yamato in midair, in a matter of seconds, and hold hold a branch of the God Tree in place. Sakki paralyses. The effect on Itachi was virtually the same as the effect Tsukuyomi had on him, just not long term. And Sakki isn't even a Jutsu. It's personality. He was born wit it. Whereas Itachi's Tsukuyomi is like Orochimaru's Edo Tensei. One of his three best techniques. 

This alone shows Orochimaru > Itachi, because Kakashi showed no fear of actually engaging Itachi even if he hyped him (Kishi makes people hype Uchiha on purpose) but didn't dare to even engage Orochimaru in an argument over who could win, let alone actual combat:
Link removed (+ Pg. 7 & 8)
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And Itachi praised Kakashi's skills. The gap between them wasn't hyped to be as wide as the gap between Oro and Kakashi. Itachi said "Remember why we are here in the first place. Getting injured is the reason why we came here." He basically implied the three Jōnin were a threat to him. We get Oro > Jōnin Team = Or > Itachi & Kisame.  The same Itachi said Jiraiya could kill him and Kisame and vice versa, simultaneously. We then get Orochimaru >> Jiraiya > Or = Itachi & Kisame + Other Unspecified Akatsuki Members. It's only in part II where Orochimaru got nerfed (I guess this rooted in part I) and where Uchiha hype began and Kishi became a fanboy for his own fiction, which is when people started putting Orochimaru under the Uchiha. He tried it by having Orochimaru getting soloed three times in basically one arc by Uchiha, but however, he was sick, needed a new body, was bedridden, plus PIS plus CIS plus plot no Jutsu was involved. This is why I made this thread. Orochimaru > Itachi and the evidence when combined, rationalised (meaning not taking into account author's evident favouritism of certain characters/clans/abilities, clear fanboyism of certain characters and fan-service towards the fan-base who worshipped such particular characters) and analysed doesn't really suggest otherwise. If Kishi didn't want to hype the Uchiha brothers, then why did he have them, defeat someone as powerful as Orochimaru (that actually lives up to his hype and was the strongest living being in Part 1 of the Naruto Manga [even when sealed he beat up Jiraiya and wiped the floor with Tsunade, which even Kabuto was almost able to do, and they were powerful]).

Because at the end of the day, let's be honest. Kishi sold Orochimaru short. Kishimoto made Orochimaru say he was weaker than Itachi and vice versa, even though his own manga (Part I is the original manga, the core, the base) suggests otherwise and did it all so that people would think Itachi's situationally / conditionally illegitimate wins over Orochimaru were in fact, legit, when they weren't. It's like Naruto vs Pain or vs Kakuzu, not legit wins based on ones sole true power level. Let's be real, if that statement had never been made that Itachi was stronger than Oro, and they had never fought in the manga, who would you think is stronger. (Please think deeply/honestly about this). The guy who was shown to be stronger than Jiraiya or the guy who was said to be substantially weaker than Jiraiya. Because Kishi said Oro < Itachi for the Uchiha hype and even he probably doesn't know how illegitimate the win was. Itachi admitted inferiority to Jiraiya, who Nagato also admitted inferiority to, and Nagato is canonically > Itachi, and Kakashi felt brave enough to fight Itachi, felt some fear of Pain, yet wouldn't dare to even think of raising a hand against Orochimaru, so Kishimoto messed up his power scaling (remember the whole "Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi > Kakashi but Itachi > Orochimaru? I thought Orochimaru >>>>>>> Kakashi now I'm so confused WAAAAAH!" problem). And the annoying thing about it all is that Kishimoto contradicted his own manga all for the sake of fulfilling his promised fanservice for uchiha fanboys/girls, which he was one of. It's sad really. Because now the same thing is happening with Roronoa Zoro in One Piece. Up to date readers of One Piece will understand exactly what I mean. Anyway enough about Kakashi. Back to Tsukuyomi. 

(And one last thing is, Orochimaru has legitimate counters to pretty much all Itachi's techniques. Can Itachi say the same? That Is the question that birthed this thread.)

Any sentenced fact about Tsukuyomi, I can just dissect, analyse, and form the truth as to where it concerns Orochimaru. This is where my English skills come into play. And also, Sharingan helps you resist, but when Kisame made that statement he didn't mention the Sharingan nor imply Kakashi wasn't toasted by Itachi because of it. So maybe pure willpower and strength of mind can help, because we know Kakashi's mind is weak. He went mad after he killed Rin. Orochimaru is strong in body and in spirit so want fall as easily to Tsukuyomi and get brain fried like Kakashi almost did. In fact, he won't fall at all because Tsukuyomi psychologically damages you. Orochimaru is already psychologically damaged. He's a psycho. I can argue the same for Hatake, but he never got over Rin's death till Obito forgave him during the war. Orochimaru had long since gotten over his parents death and even decided what he wanted to do in response, which was gain immortality, master everything to make his parents proud, and live long enough in the hopes that one day the White snakes would reincarnate like Hiruzen said they would and that Orochimaru may see his parents again one day. Orochimaru is such a psycho he doesn't even seem psycho any more. Which is why I like him. He makes the impossible seam possible, and almost even normal, whether it's moving while he should be paralysed or being able to move his soul in another person's body, which even by Naruto standards, is actually quite fascinating and just a cool ability for a villain to have. Orochimaru > Tsukuyomi. Convenient how I'm finding so many ways around Tsukuyomi isn't it. Just ...Too convenient - OH WAIT BECAUSE ITACHI ISN'T AS STRONG AS YOU THOUGHT HE WAS!
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Bitch please! Even Kishimoto himself has caught Uchiha fanboyism syndrome. The disease with no cure. Oh wait. He's the source of it, ironically enough. And If Itachi > Madara then Kisame > Hashirama, the way I see it and we all know this is clearly not the case. In fact, that would make the Sannin >>> Madara and we know Tsunade who = or is probably based on canon manga feats and hype, > Itachi, is < Hashirama, so ...

What can he kill Madara with? Tsukuyomi? The Jutsu I have torn to shreds and will continue to do so? (If it was so good Itachi could have killed so many strong people. But he didn't. It's the same with Kotoamatsukami. Why wasn't it spammed? Yet Jiraiya and Orochimaru were talked about. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei and killed Gokage. Jiraiya displayed the Toad Sage's Sage Mode and could have beat Pain. Not relevant to this thread, but Shisui is overrated in my opinion. If Kotoamatsukami was that great, Minato would never have become the Fourth Hokage. That's the logical, rational way of looking at things. The same goes for Itachi's character as a whole. He's just overrated and even Kishimoto overrates. This is where it becomes a sad problem). 

By the way ...
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Orochimaru is durable so, so is his brain. He has extreme survival capabilities let alone a powerful mind so Tsukuyomi is useless against him. He is invulnerable to convention techniques. Tsukuyomi is just a haxxed version of a regular Sharingan Genjutsu, and in terms of durability (both body and mind) Orochimaru is just a haxxed version of a regular human, so ... 

Orochimaru said to Kabuto that one punch from Tsunade could kill him. If a normal guy punches you hard in the side of your head, you may be brain damaged, although it's unlikely, and if you slip on ice, fall back, have thin/bald hair and hit your head on concrete, you die as your brain dies. Tsunade, the strongest woman in the world, who has one hit kill punches to regular humans, was stated by Madara to be stronger then Raikage who can blow your chest out with lariat, even to people as durable as Kisame, slammed her fist straight into a weakened Orochimaru's face, and nothing happened. So his brain is strong, because Three Tailed Naruto slapped his face and sent him flying yet what happened to his brain. Nothing. If any of this happened to you, how do you think your brain would feel? Dead. Do I need to keep going? I think not?

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Now let's finish. I think we're all tired reading about Itachi and his cheat techniques. (Then again, are they really that cheat?)
Only Tsunade has been shown capable of curing this psychological damage. Now, Tsunade is celebrated across the ninja world as the world's best medic, yet Orochimaru too defied the limits of medical ninjutsu. For gods sake what's the point in this Tsukuyomi essay. His brain gets tampered with, he spits out a new body with a new brain, since he can spit out new bodies with new limbs. And he doesn't need to be conscious or have an intact mind to use oral rebirth. Look at these scans:
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Link removed 8/ 9/ 10/   
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I've waited years to analyse this and show it to the Naruto fan base. Kabuto implied a chakra scalpel to the neck would kill even Tsunade. What chakra scalpel does is cut your body, but internally. He touches your muscle, it looks fine, though it's severed or punctured inside. Taking a chakra scalpel to the neck is like decapitation, but inside your neck and not the whole neck coming off, but essentially the same thing, as it can kill someone, and even Tsunade ("I'll never die in battle".  Tsunade Senju) by the likes of it. Orochimaru took TWO chakra scalpels to the neck, was technically/logically dead, yet regenerated from it with Oral Rebirth. Oral Rebirth can essentially get Oro out of anything, anything that doesn't completely destroy his being (he needs to have a body in the first place in order to spit a new one out) and can't be escaped by Oral Rebirth in the time that his being is erased, for example, a KN4 Bijuu Bomb. And as far as the whole world is concerned, having your head cut off is worse than going mental due to a traumatic experience. Come on, just look at Oro's body there. He looked limp and dead, but his physical being still remained, and his mental being too, since the White Snake is Orochimaru's true body (so even if he had no counter to Tsukuyomi, it would affect his body's brain, not the White Snake, and Oral Rebirth trolls Amaterasu, so either way, the fight goes in Orochimaru's favour). And Oral Rebirth can escape death and anything physical that affects the brain externally to change the mental 'whatever you want to call it, i.e. ' thought and perception' which goes on internally in our brains. This is a (5th or 6th, something like that) counter to Tsukuyomi. 

At the end of the day Tsukuyomi was a Jutsu that was (not literally to every minuscule detail, of course) stated to be equal in usefulness to Amaterasu, a Jutsu which Orochimaru can easily get out of:
Link removed 9/ 10/ 11/
And Link removed
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So why wouldn't he easily be able to get out of Tsukuyomi. Sasuke easily got out of both. His method for Tsukuyomi, different, but the point still stands. Tsukuyomi is stated to be the antipode to Amaterasu. Antipode means the direct opposite of something else. The opposite to Naruto is Sasuke. They are equal in power. Fire is the equal to water. Lots of water can cancel out small fire and lots of fire can evaporate small water. They are equal in status and power. America was in WW2 the antipode to USSR. They were equal 'Superpowers' in that era. If Orochimaru can get out of Amaterasu so easily it makes Itachi look stupid for even using it, then I don't care, Tsukuyomi ain't doing nothing. Forgive me, Itachi fans. 

I'm sorry but there's just too many possible counters (like, 5 or 6 counters) Oro has to Tsukuyomi for an Itachi fan to come and tell me he can solo Oro with it. If he can, why didn't he. He's had two chances in the manga to do this but didn't. The first time, he didn't defeat Oro. What even suggests he could have at the time (Did Itachi have Totsuka then? Another issue to debate). The second time, he did, with a technique stronger than Tsukuyomi. And that is Susano'o. Why would Naruto use Rasenshuriken to kill Ninja X if he knows for a fact he can kill Ninja X with a standard Rasengan. You get me?

(Just going slightly off-course for a second; while Uchiha like Itachi may not really be all they seem, [Battle situations were manipulated by Kishi in their favour (the sneaky bastard): such as Deidara's clay bombs having a Doton nature, so Sasuke can overpower with Raiton because Suiton > Katon > Fuuton > Raiton > Doton > Suiton. I mean, face it, was Explosion Release even classed an actual Kekkei Genkai back then? No. It was just Iwagakure Kinjutsu. It could have been a mix of anything, like Futon and Katon for example, as when you collide wind and extreme fire, an explosion is what you get, but since Futon > Raiton, Kishi thought, okay, Sasuke must beat this guy even though Naruto hasn't had a proper fight to show his personal development since shippuden started. So now explosion is caused by mud, which is weaker than electricity. Sasuke wins. Sasuke soloes C4 (now even Itachi doesn't have a legitimate counter to that, so maybe that's why Kishi introduced Susano'o, to settle the controversies that aroused because Itachi doesn't have the Raiton element) and still goes on to defeat a perfect jinchuriki with Amaterasu NLFE (No Limits Fallacy Enhanced) Itachi didn't even display. And then Sasuke lives on to defeat Danzo by 'tricking' him with Sharingan, a trick that hadn't worked for so long (if you take out the Deidara fight). And also there's Orochimaru forgetting he could use cursed seal to control Sasuke, and then Sasuke using said seal to overpower Oro's own dimension, and there's Orochimaru wanting Itachi's body and not wanting to kill him, because if Orochimaru wanted to kill Itachi he would have summoned a Rashomon under him so he falls onto the ground or Manda on top of him so he falls into the ground. And what about Orochimaru not transforming into the White Snake to take Itachi's body (he's canonically been stated to have to turn into that first then eat the person then take them onto the soul dimension and overpower them there) all because Genjutsu probably doesn't work on it, Itachi has no counter (Kishi hadn't thought of Susano'o by the time this flash back was shown) and because the Whit Snake has a poison which Itachi has no counter to, so Orochimaru walks up behind, grabs Itachi's shoulder and then gets punched in the face like the whole encounter took place on the school playground. And then there's Oro appearing in Yamata form for random reason (he was sealed in White Snake Form, not Yamata with human Oro in its throat, so no apparent reason at all) so that he can't dodge Totsuka, because on the ground, he would have dodged it easily and wouldn't have sat their to tank it (if I haven't talked about the above sentence's topic already, I will do so later, it's a touchy subject) all so Uchiha can appear above Sannin, but if Orochimaru and Itachi walked up on each other, once he realises Genjutsu won't work, he'll go for a physical approach, to which Oro summons Edo's or Manda and says Bye Bye Itachi. Besides arrogance, Oro was given hidden, concealed PIS to limit his capabilities even after he was bedridden [vs sasuke] or immobile [vs Itachi 2nd time] or logically sick [Vs Itachi 1st time]). Face it, Prime Oro > Even Nagato. Kishi knew this so trolled one of his best, well written characters for the sake of Uchiha hype. Deidara, Orochimaru, Danzo and Killer B lost their lives (Bee only lost his dignity) to fulfil the Uchiha hype. Itachi himself basically got sacrificed for this hype when Itachi took centre stage. Orochimaru actually lived up to his hype, unlike Hiruzen, who was still stated to be able to use every Jutsu in Konoha, was shown to be stronger than Gokage that fought Madara, and Orochimaru is > Hiurzen. He was a researcher, a genius who researched into the impossible, and although he liked Sarutobi as a child, knew he wouldn't be satisfied with what Sarutobi could teach him, so always pursued more. And let's be real, Hiurzen can't use every Jutsu in Konoha. I mean, could Hashirama?
Sorry bout that. Going back on course. You can see how much Kishi's unjustified mistreatment of Orochimaru's character has affected me emotionally. 

... And I once read this comment in a thread not too long ago: (it was a Tsunade hype thread)

" Old enough Tsunade's problem as a fighter is a lack of defense feats. Byakugo combined with Katsuya is a good defense, but it really hasn't shown enough to suggest that it would hold up against higher level attacks. Also many do not think Tsunade has shown an adequate Genjutsu defense. Personally I think the Byakugo seal makes her immune to most Genjutsu since she can simply release chakra into her system disturbing the flow and I think Byakugo would heal her even from Tsukuyomi. But good luck getting many people to buy that w/o directly seeing it. She also lacks a solid defense against high speed attacks, I know I said she can keep up somewhat with Byakugo Seal powered Shunshins, but that isn't going to be enough against Jutsu like Amaterasu, FTG, Kirin, etc... You know the type. Now maybe in theory it could be, but certainly Tsunade hasn't shown enough to make a strong case for that right now. "

The understatement of the year. Itachi fans are so dogmatic and just think Tsukuyomi is above all. With what feats is it above all. Actually believe logic for once and not Manga hype that was designed for 10 year olds that don't know how to read anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong but when Tsunade healed Kakashi and Sasuke, didn't Kakashi get up right away and be like ugh what happened then has to rest for a week in hospital. But when she healed Sasuke she said he'll wake up soon. It's like Kakashi did more damage on Sasuke. But Itachi was fresh when he used it on Kakashi and didn't give a damn if he lived or died, but wasn't trying to kill Sasuke so would have given him a weaker dose and his MS/Sharingan was almost spent as he used one more Jutsu (Amaterasu) to get out of the frog belly, then said he needed to rest his eyes, and deactivated his Sharingan. So he gives a stronger dose to Kakashi yet Kakashi takes less damage even though he only has one Sharingan to limit the damage with and isn't even an Uchiha with Sharingan as that's what Itachi said was needs to resist, yet Sasuke who was closest in Uchiha blood to Itachi out of any Uchiha in existence, had two sharingans which were either 2 or 3 Tomoe at the time, took more damage, and Sasuke has and always will have more willpower than Kakashi. You see what I'm getting at? Read it over again. You'll see that Tsukuyomi, like Itachi's character and most of his abilities, is contradictory (Tsukuyomi was a different illusion every time we saw it. Swords on Kakashi, not seen on Part I Sasuke, and on Part II Sasuke it was the illusion Itachi made where he plucked Sasuke's eyes out for EMS) and does not even make sense. Yet not an Itachi fan, but me, an Orochimaru fan had to bring this to attention. Itachi fans probably knew this but didn't dare to open their mouths so that Itachi didn't drop a couple of tiers down the ranking. But anyway ...

Right at the end of the day, my main problem with Tsukuyomi is that if it was so powerful, why wasn't it spammed, or using a more technical phrase, utilised more frequently. It had 3 showings and each time it was different, was illogical, resisted by weaker method resistances and vice versa, and did something different, whereas against opponents like Sasuke, Nagato and Kabuto, Amaterasu and Susano'o were constantly used, yet Tsukuyomi became virtually redundant after part 1.  It works on CIS characters who move into close range of Itachi to have conversations. Orochimaru likes to fight mostly at a distance (based on part 1 showings, whereas, in part 2, the Jutsu he did this with got taken away). There's too much evidence gong against Tsukuyomi for me to suggest it can do anything to Orochimaru. And that's it. 

Tsukuyomi: Redundancy
Amaterasu: Lol. Even more redundant. 
Ribcage Susano'o: Bitch please
Skeletal Susano'o: 
Humanoid Susano'o: .......
Armoured Susano'o: Now let's get down to it. This is where the real battle begins. (If not for Totsuka and Yata, Itachi is worthless to Orochimaru, yet without Hashirama and Tobirama Edo Tensei, Orochimaru still kicks ass, even if Itachi does have said sacred weapons)

Don't lie to yourself, any Susano'o that isn't protected by Yata gets drilled into by Kusanagi, the blade that canonically cut a diamond hard staff, and I'm not even going assume Susano'o is near diamond, more like <<<<<<<<<<< Diamond as Tsunade and Raikage (who can't scratch Enma) were easily bypassing Madara's and Sasuke's Ribcage defences, respectively. If Manda or any snake on his level slams his head of his tail on any non-Yata Mirror-protected Susano'o what do you think happens. (What happens if Itachi isn't even in Susano'o at the time? Can he quickly activate to V4 and put Yata Mirror like an umbrella over Susano'o's head?) Let me show you the size comparisons again: 
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Susano'o <<< Aoda's head (in terms of size)
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When magnified it spans one maybe two of the diamond shape patterns on Aoda's head. Aoda could chew that Susano'o with his front teeth. 
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Compare the scans yourselves. I didn't want to believe it as Aoda's is second best snake summon, but these are individually bigger than Aoda (but not as fast). 
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And then this guy (snake in the middle) is just on a whole 'nother scale.  (Aoda is Gamaken's equivalent and The Trio of Snakes are a rival force to Gamahiro). And by the way, know that without Totsuka and Yata and No Limits Fallacy concerning Itachi controlling creatures (anyway, it was stated that MS could control Bijuu, not snakes and frogs so I forgot that Itachi can't even control Orochimaru's summons. But that's strange cos Sasuke did. Maybe 3 Tomoe for normal creature and MS for bijuu, but anyway) - Itachi would have no counter. 

Itachi alas us has to resort to using Susano'o. Which eats away at his stamina, life force, chakra capacity and eyesight. In almost every situation against Orochimaru. This gnaws away at his chakra reserves, stamina, eyesight and life force ... And that leads me into the final argument concerning Orochimaru VS Itachi: Susano'o.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

PART 6
A BATTLE OF ATTRITION: SUSANO'O

Orochimaru has several ways to kill Itachi and Itachi isn't willing or die so he will use Susano'o. It turns into a battle of attrition where Orochimaru outlasts him because Itachi always has to resort to Susano'o, which eats up his chakra reserves, stamina, eyesight and life force. He spammed against Kabuto and Nagato, but was Edo. Alive Itachi (the one that fought Sasuke at the Uchiha hideout) could barely uphold Susano'o for three minutes. If he uses it Itachi turns on the car engine and starts driving towards death's door. Tsukuyomi was blind him, Amaterasu was making his eye bleed. Both dropped his chakra levels. His stamina and life force is gone once he starts Using Susano'o. Look at Sasuke, he used Mangekyo against Bee (one Genjutsu on the gate guard, one Genjutsu on bee himself, Amaterasu on 8 tails) Raikage (used Amaterasu like 4 times and Genjutsu on Cee, plus Susano'o V1 on A, V2 on Gaara and V1 again on Mei), Danzo (Amaterasu once, ten mins of off an on V2/V3 Susano'o, and note Itachi barely had 3 mins, plus th Genjutsu trickery) and Kakashi/Naruto (V4 Susano'o) and then his MS was spent. Itachi has to resort to Susano'o in so many situations which eats up his stamina, chakra, eyes sight and life force. Itachi was almost spent when he fought Sasuke. He has way less chakra and stamina than him as Sasuke outlasted him. And also Itachi's life force got quickly depleted by Susano'o. He tanked Kirin, sealed Orochimaru, and then he was virtually blind. So Orochimaru, who was able to toy with Hiruzen, barely tried against KN4, wiped the floor with Jiraiya and Tsunade when he was armless, will easily be able to outlast Itachi since Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu's redundancy will result in Itachi having to use Susano'o, which depletes his stamina, eye sight, chakra capacity and life force rapidly. And I mean, rapidly. 

If Orochimaru counters Tsukuyomi in any of the countless ways I stated in the entire section above, what does Itachi do? Use Susano'o which slices away at his stamina, life force, eye sight and chakra levels. Why? Because Amaterasu and anything not MS related is virtually redundant in a real fight against any one of the Sannin. 

And to be honest, any Sannin can handle any Akatsuki pair. Is it so hard to believe Tsunade could defeat Hidan & Kakuzu. I'm pretty sure Jiraiya could take Itachi & Kisame and I know Orochimaru could defeat Deidara & Sasori. Pain said he would never have won against Jiriaya and Konan would be a non factor in that match up. 

Back to the point, if Itachi gets swallowed by one of Orochimaru's snakes, he'll need Susano'o which heavily taxes him and chakra reserves, stamina, life force and eye sight. Unless you can state another counter. Fire ball Jutsu maybe? But how will that  fare against snakes of this level:
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One of which can tank C0 (nuclear bomb basically, without the nuclear) and Gamayu Endan (the series' biggest Katon) and another of which broke easily though the walls surround Konoha, something that Pain's Chou Shinra Tensei was incapable of. Just check the scans:
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And for external defence the snake summons can harden their scales and even shed their skin to evade damage and create a substitute to fools the opponent. Susano'o, which destroys Itachi's eye sight, depletes his stamina at a rapid rate, gnaws away at his stamina and literally eats away at his chakra, fast ..... is Itachi's only option.

Kusanagi snipe:
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It's unlikely Itachi will dodge this as KN4 had good reaction feats. The answer, Susano'o? The Jutsu that destroys Itachi's eye sight, depletes his stamina at a rapid rate, gnaws away at his stamina and literally eats away at his chakra, fast ..... is Itachi's only option. Genjutsu Oro when they make eye contact? No. It doesn't freeze him in place. Kusanagi will still stab him in the crotch or stomach if this happens. Orochimaru will most likely go for the head. And then Itachi will use Susano'o which destroys Itachi's eye sight, depletes his stamina at a rapid rate, gnaws away at his stamina and literally eats away at his chakra, fast. Very fast. The blade couldn't pierce KN4 so sent it flying. It will pierce Itachi and even if he uses Susano'o, the quickest be can out up is V1, or the crossover stage between V2 and V3 if I'm being generous. And it has no Yata in this stage. Susano'o is innocent (not harder than diamond) until proven guilty (proven to be more durable than Kongou Nyoi, which sliced through Edo Hashirama's wood while the same Edo (Or Alive) Hashirama could bind Kyuubi, Or Madara's Susano'o), so until anyone proves otherwise, Itachi doesn't really have a legitimate counter to this. Say he can dodge if you want but if Orochimaru slashes that blade sideways like when KN4 pushed it off, it's coming like an aeroplane wing at Itachi. Susano'o, again, is is only counter, which gets sliced through like a hot knife through butter. Unless anyone wants to prove otherwise? Because the offensive feats Orochimaru's Kusanagi was given > The level of durability Itachi's Susano'o has been shown to have. 

Orochimaru can outlast Itachi like Sasuke did. To the point that Itachi had to use Susano'o, which is taxing to his chakra reserves, stamina, life force and eyesight, disadvantages which will lead to Itachi's death, a major reason why Orochimaru can beat him and why he's just overall stronger than Itachi. 

What it Itachi's answer to Manda? Controlling him? Well Itachi's eyes and Manda's eyes hav to be close for this to happen as far as I'm concerned. And even so, Oro who who has a large chakra capacity, is snake like, and has a 5 in Genjutsu, will easily be able to inject his chakra into Manda to break him out of any Genjutsu Itachi has be it 3 Tomoe, MS or Tsukuyomi itself. Amaterasu = Redundancy because of two factors: 1) Manda can shed his skin. And 2) he tanked C0 and Toad Flame Bombs for a few seconds two techniques which are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Amaterasu in potency. So Manda will shed skin and portably won't even feel pain while he does so. Normal fire is < Amaterasu in potency but the more fire, the more potent the 'core / base of the fire' (the more water a firefighter would need to put out a house fire if it spreads wide) Gamayu Endan dwarfed Gamabunta, who is the size of a bijuu, and Manda ran straight into that, tanked it for a few seconds, managed to shed his skin in the midst of that fire and burrow into the ground, taking no damage at all. 

Because of Tsukuyomi (Genjutsu In General) and Amaterasu (Katon Ninjutsu In General) being useless in a situation like this (Genjutsu and Katon is Itachi's entire arsenal), Itachi needs to go for a more physical (Taijutsu-esque) approach in the form of Susano'o. Which decreases his life force, hurts every cell in his body (as Sasuke said), leads gradually to blindness, and drinks up stamina and dries up chakra reserves. Canonically, a Susano'o (Itachi has only displayed ones this size) is smaller than a boss snakes head by a substantial amount. Any Susano'o that isn't V4 is useless. And how far can Totsuka reach, because look at the distance between it and Yamata. Unless Itachi gets close, he can't do anything to Manda, yet if Manda burrows under Itachi and strikes directly under him, where Susano'o is open, what can Itachi do? Because Manda is wide and can't be dodged easily, especially when he can open his poison fang covered jaws wide enough to swallow a bijuu and anything around that size. Unless Manda is influenced by character induced stupidity (Gamabuntas sword couldn't even touch Manda unless he was immobile [half of his body was stuck in the ground when Tsunade used it], Totsuka ain't touching him. In fact, Manda took Bunta's sword away and used it against him. Wonder how that would work against Itachi???:
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I'll just leave it there and let you think about that one for yourselves. (I wonder if Manda could disarm the sword from Susano'o and teleport with it back to Ryūchi Cave? Like he did with Sasuke when he used him to tank C0 for a couple of seconds then make the reverse jump back to Ryūchi Cave ... I'll let you think about that .....
By the way, I think I made a point before about how even when crouched down and not using the full length of their bodies, the boss snakes tower over the city of Konoha. Look at Manda in the middle panel. This is what I'm talking about. If Manda makes uses of his height and length, and stretches out, he can even tower over Gamabunta. Gamabunta's head was in line with the top of the lower third of Manda's body. Just like I said before, Orochimaru can reach three times the height of a Bijuu's head in battle. In a position like this, someone standing on the head of a Bijuu sized animal (Jiraiya) is completely out of Orochimaru's reach (provided he's not fighting with Gamabunta's help), and Jiraiya has longer range attacks than Itachi, even without Gamabunta. So see how far out of Totsuka's (or anything's) range Manda and Orochimaru are? Honestly, the Sannin just operate on a completely different level from Itachi. 

Now let's talk about the relationship between Edo Tensei and Susano'o:
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Edo Zombies have to be sealed. They cannot be defeated. Genjutsu won't work on them as they resisted even Eternal Tsukuyomi, which is not only the most powerful Genjutsu in the Narutoverse, but is a Rinnegan + Juubi enhanced version of Itachi's featless technique: Link removed
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Using Amaterasu on an Edo would be like using it on Tsunade. Proof? Amaterasu reduced Sasuke to a blood stain in seconds) the old Sasuke, not the new one that escaped via oral rebirth, Orochimaru's technique); Link removed
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but did nothing to Edo Nagato even after a long period of burning;
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It took seven manga pages worth of time for Amaterasu just to burn off an Edo's clothes and a bit of skin off Nagato's right arm, which shows that as an Edo burns, they regenerate at the same rate, so they just end up covered in flames, which allows them to just carry on with their lives as if nothing happened, and if black flamed Edo's touch Itachi, what happens to him is what happened with the 8 tails and Karin here:
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If Hashirama is hit, and then touches his wood while he manipulates it, you get Amaterasu covered mokuton (Hashirama wood is durable so won't burn out so easily. It took a bijuu bomb to get rid of mokuton: mokujin [wood golem]) and then Itachi's really in trouble, because what happens again is that he is forced to use Susano'o, the Jutsu which hangs his eyes out to dry, depletes stamina, chakra and life force. Why is he forced to use it? Because Itachi ain't dodging something this fast: 
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Creates a forest in an instant, just like what Tsunade said here:
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Or this fast:
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See? Hashirama creates vegetation from a surface then from that vegetation can create even more vegetation in the same timeframe, which is, a second. I'm not sure if I've spoken already about this, but, people say this Edo Hashirama doesn't have access to that pollen flower tree thing called, Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin. Why? It's his Jutsu. Kabuto managed to 'reproduce it' in Edo Madara (look at the Tsunade scan above from the Gokage vs Madara fight) so why wouldn't Orochimaru's Edo Hashirama have it when it's his own Jutsu. I'll talk about this a bit more later, but anyway, if Itachi sniffs that pollen the battle is over. In a scenario where it's not Madara playing around, Orochimaru and his Edo's will go straight for the kill. Itachi can block the pollen, but has to use Susano'o, which blinds him, kills him, and does everything else that's bad. 

And if that gets covered by Amaterasu, which Edo's and Oro are immune to (ironic how everyone but Itachi is immune to Amaterasu in this battle, I mean, even boss snakes can shed their skin to evade it), then Itachi is setting himself up to die. Susano'o is his only way out and even then Orochimaru and Hashirama have a way around its defence. 

Using Amaterasu is like an army soldier shooting themselves in the foot and the eye. Because if Amaterasu hits any surface, Edo Hashirama's Mokuton can be grown from that surface and the wood will be on fire, and if it touches Itachi he'll get burnt too. And since Itachi doesn't have Enton like Sasuke, he can't remove the flames. 

Also, if Hashirama uses Kokuangyo, we need feats to suggest Itachi will see through it with Sharingan, as Hiruzen, who has a 5 in Genjutsu couldn't break it, yet Orochimaru, who also has a 5, has the ability to break Itachi's paralysis illusion and has about 6 or 7 counters to Tsukuyomi as I stated earlier, showing that Itachi's Genjutsu countering powers with the Sharingan are inferior to the strength of Hashirama's Kokuangyo. 

And then what happens again is that he is forced to use Susano'o, the Jutsu which hangs his eyes out to dry, depletes stamina, chakra and life force. Because he isn't going to be able to fight while he can't see. He'll need Susano'o just to ensure his safety in the dark void of blindness. 

Now when he is in Susano'o, he has the ability to seal an Edo, with Totsuka sword, but one at a time. If he goes for Hashirama first, which would be the smart option, Orochimaru can do this: Link removed
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Because he has enough time to. Remember how long the sealing takes? (Itachi had a conversation with Nagato and Nagato had a conversation with Naruto before the sealing activated. Itachi talked to Sasuke and Orochimaru talked to Itachi before the sealing activated.)

If Itachi does the dumb option and goes for Tobirama with Totsuka (I doubt it will even hit the second fastest shinobi in history), then Hashirama binds Susano'o, and either uses chakra enhanced strength [1] (I'm sure Hashirama has this, if I'm mistaken, forgive me) to break into any part of Susano'o not guarded by Yata, which Oro can do with Kusanagi, [2] or attack from underground [3], or Hashi throws Itachi out of Susano'o like Gaara did [4] and snakes and Mokuton could help do the binding in the first place to hold Susano'o down [5]. See scans for each number here:

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I was so sure Hashirama had it too, but if he doesn't, it doesn't matter, since Orochimaru has boss snakes (> CST) and a sword (that can cut diamond) to do all the Susano'o breaking for him. 

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If wind can cut Susano'o, the Kusanagi definitely can. Yes, Baku helped, but Danzo's wind can't cut diamond in the first place so Kusanagi has more cutting power. 

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People stronger than Itachi have almost died as a result of Orochimaru and his sneaky underground attacks. If Orochimaru uses extending Kusanagi from in front of Itachi, but still under him at the point where Orochimaru will end up inside Susano', while Manda does the same and attacks from behind with this attack, what does Itachi do? Plus Edo Hashirama's Mokuton from underground. Oro is the king of underground attacks. With Kusanagi in front, Mokuton directly under and Manda behind, Itachi is going to have no choice but to buy a one way ticket to the afterlife. 

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And instead of Rasenshuriken, it will be Curse Mark, Spit/Extending Kusanagi, Hiraishingiri, Grab with tongue and smash into the ground like done on Jiraiya, or grab with tongue then perform Gogyo Fuin. But because of the risk of Genjutsu, it's best to let a boss snake or Edo Tobirama lay down the finishing attack. 

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Susano'o is a big target so snakes bigger and faster than this one can just easily wrap around it. The snake is circling, not striking Susano'o so Yata will be useless. Totsuka won't help if the arm is bound too. If it isn't, Edo Hashirama binds the arm and takes the sword away with Mokuton. Link removed 7/
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Edo Hashirama created a forest in an instant. Only a few small branches were needed to hold down a Gokage, and the strongest one at that, so if all that wood was concentrated on Susano'o, it will get held down. 

Edo's are sort of slow a little, like dumb, the way Orochimaru had to make them mindless killing zombies, so I wouldn't count on them dodging Totsuka at close range, but Orochimaru can dodge it, the Orochimaru who dodged midair attacks of similar speed: Link removed
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Was as fast as weightless Lee: Link removed
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Orochimaru had untraceable speed like Lee. Sasuke could only keep up because of Sharingan. Watch the anime version as you can see the speed feats better there. 

How good is Susano'o at blocking out extreme pressure? Not very good:
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Wind can't kill a human but if you were at the bottom of the ocean you would be crushed. If Tobirama makes as much water as this: 
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And controls it in a shape similar, be it a sphere or a cube, if Itachi is at the bottom, he will get crushed like any normal human as water pressure would weigh down on him. How long would is Susano'o last? And he'd have to remain grounded as he can't make a legged Susano'o so has nothing to cover the bottom of his Susano'o so could drown if he does. Killer B had a Version 2 chakra cloak covering his nose and plus Octopuses are aquatic so B could survive, but Itachi won't have those same advantages. He has to use Susano'o in this position, which hangs his eyes out to dry, depletes stamina, chakra and life force. And snakes are aquatic so work well in water. In a water filled battle field (that Tobirama can create because he was said to be the best Suiton user in history, and Kisame or any Mizukage has been said to have surpassed him, yet look at their feats. 

Now look at Tobirama cutting the God Tree's branches with Suiton. 
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If that hits Itachi he dies straight away. The last time it was cut it was by KCM Mode Kyuubi Cloaked EMS Sasuke's V3 Legged Senjutsu Enhanced Susano'o Blade:
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So I doubt Itachi's regular basic boring dull Susano'o can cut through it. Yamata = Susano'o in size. God tree branch is bigger than Susano'o. Totsuka doesn't extend like Monkey D. Luffy's arms so I doubt Itachi would even be able to cut that. 

Also look at what is inside these snakes' mouths: Link removed
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Kusanagi Blades?! That can pierce Susano'o?! Orochimaru can spam these snakes to attack from multiple angles with diamond (and Susano'o) piercing Kusanagi blades, (and by the way, any of this would work well on land, but just better in water) and if Orochimaru summons any of his snakes (at least five of them are a give or take bigger than Tailed Beasts underwater, Itachi's in deep trouble. Get the pun?

Look what regular snakes were capable of doing. Look at their speed and level of destruction. Look at what it took to hold them back:
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For the love of God, EMS SASUKE said from his own mouth, "He has got Orochimaru's power. He won't die so easily." And this is when he had EDO ITACHI by his side. Against Orochimaru himself, would Sasuke even think they together would be able to beat him, because Orochimaru was slated as a threat to EMS Sasuke. 
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Note that Orochimaru has even better Sen'ei Jashu which can wrap around and restrain the branches of the God Tree, something which is way bigger than Itachi's Susano'o. Both Itachi and Sasuke were not able to dodge these Kabuto's, nameless, pointless, worthless, purposeless, low level, micro-sized, weak-ass, dumb-ass, slow, nonsensical bitesize, Sen'ei Jashu level fodder snakes. They resorted to Susano'o. What would happen in that same situation where it is just alive Itachi who can't afford to overuse Susano'o, and if it was a snake this big:
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See? The point of this thread isn't to bring Itachi down. It's to show that he's not as superior to Orochimaru as you think/as he was portrayed to be in the manga. They used Susano'o. Anyone slower than them that doesn't have something like Susano'o would have been injured & poisoned, or even worse, killed. Look at how big they are. Those small snakes can swallow a human being whole. And then we have Manda, who could swallow a bijuu whole. 

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These snakes moved faster than Itachi could react in the first panel. An MS couldn't keep up with them. I'm not trying to make snakes look stronger than Hagoromo, but anything a Sharingan can't follow, is by all means, as fast as the Raikage:
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Karin said Sasuke's MS couldn't keep up with Raikage. Sasuke's EMS could barely keep up with fodder snakes. Look how fast the twin snakes from the Sannin fight struck. And those snakes are as slow as a tortoise when compared to Aoda and Manda. So Itachi's going to find it difficult to deal with snakes. Amaterasu doesn't work and Tsukuyomi doesn't either, so again, Itachi has to resort to a Jutsu which leaks his stamina and chakra like urine, and then makes him cough blood, go blind and then he dies after about two minutes. Orochimaru is a lot stronger than people give him credit for.

And Manda/Aoda is faster than Raikage (logically, I mean, Manda would win a race to the other side of the country due to his size not just his speed) so it's not so unbelievable, is it. And yet in the second panel Sasuke reacted to the snake and barely managed to pin it down with his sword. But he has EMS, so that's understandable. 

And these are Kabuto's snakes. Anything Kabuto can do with snakes Orochimaru can do better, besides summoning, because Kabuto cloned and improved Manda after he died. 

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Here, Itachi could 'see chakra everywhere'. Orochimaru can replicate this feat by summoning multiple snakes that have chakra too. Simple. Or my having snakes spit out Kusanagi blades, infusing them with chakra like how he levitates them against Hiruzen then turning them into snakes like he did after he impaled Sai's clone after the fight with KN4 Naruto. And they were in a dark cave. If Orochimaru has Edo Hashirama layer this with Kokuangyo, and they fight in an open space where Orochimaru can summon bijuu sized snakes (that due to snake sensing can fight with their eyes closed, can shed skin and harden scaled to negate damage) then what happens?

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Not sure what this is worth, but Itachi showed a fear and respect for Ryūchido, you know, where Manda and co come from. It's funny how Itachi was so humble and sort of a bit weak in the fight with Kabuto, yet he was all arrogant before when his personality was different, and said Orochimaru was weaker than him, even though Orochimaru in all honesty is > Kabuto, because let's be honest, had it been Pre-War Arc Prime Orochimaru (current Orochimaru with only Edo Hashi and Tobi, Edo's mind,  [not power, mind] suppressed, and no Zetsu cells), he could potentially have won the fight. Think about it. Kishi only had statements like that made for the Uchiha hype (which was highest in the middle of Part 2 from Sasuke Vs Oro to start of war arc) even though Kishimoto himself knows like me, that Oro > Itachi. 

Look what Kabuto did here: 
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Like oral rebirth. Oro did something similar here when Sasuke 'revived him (rebirth)':
Is it an alternate form of oral rebirth because Kabuto used it initially to get out of an attack while Oro used it to come back during his 'rebirth'. It's a possibility. Because Zetsu said Orochimaru always comes out of snakes mouths:

Maybe he just leeches into them like he did in the forest of death. But if he's inside a snake then the snake attacks Itachi and Itachi doesn't know Orochimaru is inside (he's got Sharingan precognition, yet couldn't see Kabuto's chakra [you'll see this scan shortly]) Orochimaru can surprise Itachi by coming out of the snake and then surprise by spitting the Kusanagi in Itachi's face. If Itachi tries to Genjutsu the snake, Oro can come out and then attack. Itachi's answer? Susano'o of course, which will kill Itachi:
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Kabuto dodged Sasuke's Susano'o arrow. Danzo, who had his vitality enhanced by Hashirama's cells, plus Sharingan precognition from 11 Sharingan eyes, could not do this. Yet Kabuto did, based of the Sage Power created by Orochimaru via Jugo and Ryuchido research. Oro might not have this ability on paper, but created it, plus has snake sensing, caught a kunai point blank. had speed Kabuto didn't have in the first place and had an elastic body which allowed him to dodge in midair, which all makes up for not having sage mode, so Orochimaru can dodge Sasuke's arrow, which canonically strikes faster than Totsuka sword. There's no way that someone with an elastic body, speed equal to weightless Lee and someone with snake sensing and good reactions is going to stand there and get hit by the Totsuka Blade. 

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Sasuke said, he's the same as Orochimaru, an imperfect snake. You mean this imperfect snake:
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You mean like the imperfect snake Sasuke almost got killed by? And confirmed his fears of that snake when he and Suigetsu perceived Orochimaru as a threat to Sasuke. EMS Sasuke. He also put SM Kabuto and Full Power Orochimaru (With His Arms, Not Sick, Has A Body That Isn't Near Its Limit, Is Compatible With His Soul) on the same level. In all actuality, they are on the same level, because Kabuto got powered up, with Orochimaru's abilities, which are abilities (besides actual sage mode, but Oro does have senjutsu chakra) Orochimaru already had, plus others (Kabuto had Edo Tensei but didn't use it I'm a direct fight with his opponents) like Cursed Seals (one shot move) and Gogyo Fuin (also a one shot K.O.) as well as a weapon as useful as the Kusanagi (which can cut basically anything [thats in regards to fighting itachi]). Orochimaru is more experienced (more than twice Kabuto's age) and more versatile (he has Jutsu in every class besides Dōjutsu, which only 2 or 3 select clans have) using Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, Kenjutsu, General Skills (i.e. Sakki), Fuinjutsu, Juinjutsu, Kuchiyose No Jutsu and Kinjutsu. Orochimaru is more powerful than SM Kabuto, when you analyse them. Kabuto's best feat was losing to Itachi and Sasuke, the latter of which feared Orochimaru and the former of which is weaker than Orochimaru (the whole purpose of this thread was to explain that, and I think I have done this excellently and flawlessly. I mean, I read only the first chapter of the Kabuto vs Uchiha duo fight up until now, and turned every statement that was made into Orochimaru > Itachi without changing the meaning. I read the description for Tsukuyomi and stripped every sentence down and analysed the Jutsu and found an Orochimaru based counter to each sentence of the technique's description. I took Susano'o and I logically broke that down too. I compared Part 1 and Part 2 hype/statements/feats/abilities. I used scans to support every single I have made in this thread. When I couldn't find scans, I used Naruto Wiki, which gets its information primarily from the Databooks written by Masashi Kishimoto himself. I'm not done with this thread yet, but even now, you should see Itachi < Orochimaru. If you don't believe this by now, keep on reading till you do believe). 

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Kabuto's snake cornea resists light. Orochimaru's Counter to Genjutsu? Because he wasn't looking at Itachi was he? When he got caught in the paralysis Genjutsu. Itachi doesn't have to look at you to put you in Genjutsu some times. However, Oro can fight with his eyes closed. But can Itachi fight in Kokuangyo? Also he can resist sound. Orochimaru has LEECH ALL CREATION, where he can go into the ground deep enough not to hear sound. For people who don't believe Orochimaru > Jiriaya or Deidara, that's his counter to Magen: Gamarinshō or C4 Garuda. How far can Totsuka pierce into the ground? Can it pierce a Rashomon gate, you know, the one Orochimaru can merge with, cos Totsuka's best feat was piercing human and snake scales, not metal gates that have been broken by either bijuu bomb or bijuu bomb + PS sword kebab combo. The perfect Susano'o sword which can swipe mountains away, not the Totsuka which can hit immobile opponents like Orochimaru in Yamata or Nagato while paralysed. Plus, how does Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi (which I've already suggested multiple counters for each) work on someone whose hiding in the ground, inside a tree, or in a snake's skin, which Oro has feats for, and theoretically also, hiding inside a Rashomon. 
He can leave Edo's and Snake Posse to stomp Itachi while he watches from inside the gates. Hehe!

Also, Itachi couldn't even detect Kabuto's chakra. Read this scan carefully:
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And Sasuke among laying eyes on that chakra for the first time though it was Orochimaru. Only when Kabuto revealed his face, Sasuke knew it was him. You see, EMS Sasuke is actually scared of Prime Orochimaru. All the evidence suggests it. 

And single Rashomon or boss snake (Or maybe Orochimaru himself) tanks this:
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Or Orochimaru dodges it. Itachi needed Sasuke's help and teamwork to even try and land attacks on Kabuto who is slower and less adapted to evasion than Orochimaru is:
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And while Itachi spent his childhood hunting boars with Sasuke, Orochimaru spent his childhood fighting in wars against people like Hanzo.  Oro became a Jōnin when he was 12. Itachi joined the ANBU so never actually became a Jōnin. Yet, Orochimaru was in both ANBU and in ROOT and became a Jōnin and was called A Sannin. And ONE SANNIN = TWO AKATSUKI BASED ON MANGA CANON. Itachi was Chunin when he was 10. Orochimaru was Chunin when he was 9. Itachi graduated from Konoha Academy when he was 7. Orochimaru did it when he was 6.  Good ol' Orochimaru. 

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Itachi himself was shocked anyone would survive Izanagi. Itachi knew Danzo took Shisui's eye, but didn't know he had another ten eyes stashed away. And who was responsible for Danzo even having that power? Lord Orochimaru:

Orochimaru > Itachi. 

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Itachi has the direct counter, Izanami, but this only decides destiny for people who try to change it. Orochimaru wasn't trying to be anyone but himself (Kabuto wanted to be Oro, Danzo wanted to be Hashirama/Madara/Shisui/Rikudo Sennin ... Good Lord) so Izanami wouldn't work on him. Sure I stated this before, but above, here's the scan that proves it. Izanagi is a Jutsu that changed destiny, the kind Kabuto would want, but Orochimaru discovered his own answers to questions like that: Oral Rebirth, Gathering of the Snakes, Fushi Tensei, extreme tanking power/durability. So Izanami is as redundant as its twin Izanagi, it's cousin Kotoamatsukami, it's father Amaterasu and it's mother Tsukuyomi. End of. The only thing left is Susano'o, the Jutsu Itachi can use for two minutes while his chakra reserves, life force, stamina and eyesight are eaten up. 

Enough about Edo's. And yes, there is Kotoamatsukami crow, but Edo Itachi used that on himself. There's no evidence he can take another Edo whose personality has nothing to do with his own, like Nagato. Kotoamatsukami's Manipulation people's thoughts. The usual one liner is Itachi controls them and makes them stab themselves with a kunai in the head. When Mifune realised he was being controlled he was automatically broken out of the Genjutsu. Once Orochimaru or any person in manga/anime history realises "Hey, I'm about to stab myself with a kunai, I don't want to do that!" They break out. Not that this is relevant to Orochimaru since he can logically survive even decapitation based of this scans I showed earlier of young Kabuto vs Orochimaru. 

AND NOW THIS SCAN IS IMPORTANT. PAY MORE ATTENTION THAT YOU'VE EVER PAID IN YOUR WHOLE LIFE:
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BOTTOM LEFT PANEL Kabuto said he'd overwrite Itachi's mind again, showing that if Itachi's crow's Kotoamatsukami one shot (then has to recharge for ten years) is used on Orochimaru's Edo Zombies, then another Fuda Tag can be used like Oro did. Basically, it goes First Fuda Tag < Kotoamatsukami < Another, Second Fuda Tag!
Kotoamatsukami is so useless in this fight that it's really not even funny anymore. Does Itachi have anything that isn't redundant? Susano'o? Oh wait! I countered that too. 

Look at that scan again. Itachi could barely dodge Doton level attacks. How is he dodging flying/extending/projectile Kusanagi?

Now, Gogyo Fuin. If Orochimaru's tongue gets hold of Itachi, and it did to Naruto (who has plot no Jutsu on his side and character induced stupidity affecting all his opponents) Anko, Jiraiya (not top tier for speed, but Itachi isn't either, their both mid to high) and Tsunade (mid tier speed, good reaction feats, able to take Naruto's wallet without him realising), so think before automatically saying 'Itachi can dodge it' - because if it gets hold of him (it can, and it will), he gets Gogyo Fuin'd. Itachi can escape via Genjutsu but Orochimaru can look away or close his eyes as he applies the seal, and Orochimaru only loses chakra when he applies the seal, but how often can Itachi use his Genjutsu?: Link removed
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And it's a shame because he'll need this eye against Orochimaru. He couldn't beat Hebi Sasuke in a fair fight so WHY the hell would be beat a healthy Orochimaru?

If Gogyo Fuin touches him, it's good game, Itachi, now bye bye! Same with curse Mark. If it hits, Itachi gets paralysed like Guruguru (even someone with Hashirama's cells couldn't resist this paralysis) and feels immense pain like Sasuke and Anko did. The only reason why Guruguru didn't feel pain is cos he can't. He didn't care when Suigetsu blew his face off? It's something to do with Hashirama cells. Obito don't feel pain either. Remember when Kakashi put his Raikiri through Obito's heart?

Orochimaru in general can fight with his eyes closed due to snake sensing. Snakes react to heat, smells etc to detect opponents. So the following can fight with their eyes closed: Orochimaru (who can summon Senju's that were trained from a young age to deal with Uchiha in battle so developed techniques for it - Mokuton to ABSORB SUSANO'O'S CHAKRA and HIRAISHINGIRI WHICH AN MS USER BETTER THAN ITACHI  [Izuna was compared to Madara, only beatable by the Second Hokage] COULD NOT REACT TO):
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Also, in Orochimaru's arsenal is Manda (who can tank extreme levels of hax), Yamata No Orochi (which it can regenerate), White Snake Form Orochimaru (Plus if Itachi even slits it with a kunai he's dead), Aoda (Who is faster than Itachi), Three Giant Snakes (Whose heads are based on manga canon stronger than Pain's CST - sounds stupid but see the scans for yourselves. Pain couldn't break the all that these snakes did), Other Snake Summons (It took techniques like, Yomi Numa to deal with such), Sen'ei Jashu/Striking Shadow Snakes, if you will? (Can Itachi react to an attack that caught Yamato, Enma, hell, it's so fast Orochimaru himself couldn't react to it when Anko used it on him in the Forest of Death, and Kabuto's snakes were snakes Itachi needed Susano'o to deal with) and Edo Hashirama and Tobirama (They were not affected by Kokuangyo and managed to bully Hiruzen in the dark), So Genjutsu is pretty much redundant anyway. Kotoamatsukami is featless in combat. If it was such an easy way to kill top tiers, why wasn't Shisui feared like Gokage and Sannin. He was only famed on the Jōnin level, like, Kakashi, a point Kotoamatsukami-hype boys/girls need to understand before making wank/hype threads for Itachi/Shisui. 

Orochimaru may not even use Yamata as if he had knowledge he would know he needs to dodge Totsuka when Susano'o comes out. If he's already in Yamata and Susano'o comes out, he transforms back down into this, spits out his normal body (which he swallows before hand in order to protect it) and goes back into it. 
And just remember you don't need to slam your palm on the ground to summon?
Don't need to do it for Rashomon either, so Orochimaru is adapted to midair fighting as he can summon snakes, Rashomon, control Kusanagi, use tongue, curse Mark, and can even dodge, all while in midair. See all the scans I posted earlier if you want proof. 
Because a common misconception is that Orochimaru can only release his white snake form once every three years. Wrong? He can only transfer his soul every three years. The White snake isn't his soul. It's his true body. Orochimaru can use it when ever he likes. Oro can and will use that form when ever he wants to. It's like his equivalent to Byakugo Mode and Sage Mode, then Yamata No Orochi is his equivalent to Sozo Saisei (Creation Rebirth) And Magen: Gamarinshō (Toad Song). And yes, Yamata (severely underrated) is his strongest Jutsu, not Edo Tensei, as Yamata is like 8 of Manda put together (though they appeared close in size to Susano'o so the databook is sort of flawed in that statement) that can regenerate. That's more useful than Edo Tensei in some aspects. And then it might even have the paralysis poison as it stems from the White Snake, and could be an alternative method to stealing ones body as Orochimaru said he was going to take one of their (Sasuke/Itachi) bodies when he was in Yamata form. Just nice to uncover some mysteries and misconceptions about Orochimaru. 

Now I think I'm done talking about Susano'o, the Jutsu that brings Itachi close to death (no actually, brings him to death) when he exerts it in his living state, plus what little stamina he even has is soaked up and his chakra levels are chewed away at, as well him walking towards blinded. Orochimaru has more counters to it that he does to Tsukuyomi, and it's bad enough Amaterasu is useless due to Oral Rebirth. 

Now I want to discuss one last thing about Amaterasu. Look at this scan of Kabuto:
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He dodged Amaterasu. Look at the top left panel. I proved before how Orochimaru is naturally faster than Kabuto and how he could have reaction speed and senses just as good as him. If you can dodge Amaterasu, you can definitely dodge Totsuka, as Amaterasu strikes quicker (remember, Totsuka is only a sword). And because of that, Orochimaru wins this fight. What's more? Itachi didn't use Totsuka to defeat Kabuto, he used Izanami, but to be fair, Itachi wasn't trying to kill him, but that doesn't change the fact Orochimaru wins, because he actually has legit counters to Itachi's moves. 

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Kabuto says he doesn't see Itachi and Sasuke winning. And let's be real, if not for Izanami (A JUTSU THAT DOESN'T WORK ON OROCHIMARU AND 95 % OF THE NARUTOVERSE) they wouldn't have won the fight. Totsuka? Orochimaru has a way around it. Yata Mirror? Orochimaru has a way around it. Izanami? Redundancy. Kotoamatsukami? Even more redundant? Izanagi? Level two redundancy because if Itachi uses it then he has to sacrifice, either Amaterasu OR Tsukuyomi, AND Sacrifice Susano'o. And as for those 3? Jōchō-Sei (Which is Japanese for redundancy). Scan?:
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Ignore my spelling error in my google search. 
And 1/2 - 1/3 of this super long essay has proved all of those redundancies, and in multiple, rational, logical ways for each. And then there's my character comparisons. I don't see how anyone can say now that Itachi > Orochimaru. Why? It's the opposite.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

PART 7
SUMMARY & CONCLUSION

Overall, it's the same conclusion as the Oro vs Sasori thread. While Oro has an answer or a counter or or a defence for everything Sasori/Itachi can throw at him, Sasori/Itachi can't say the same. 

Did I consider White Snake and its paralysis poison gas? No. Did I consider the Yamata that can regenerate? No. Have I considered Oro using oral rebirth to escape Totsuka sealing on the low chance that he actually gets hit by it unless he is in Yamata form? No? 

And note that Orochimaru was perceived and considered to be a threat to EMS Sasuke:
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That's not to say Oro can just kill Itachi easily, but consider that point. I mean, Madara didn't have to be explicitly stronger than Hashirama to be a threat to him, did he? Just consider that. Now I'm going to conclude this post using this final section. 

(Healthy Full Power Prime No Body Failing) Orochimaru wins mid-high diff against Itachi (Alive Pt. 2, Not Imaginary Prime Or Healthy Fanfic Itachi, Not Edo Itachi) Uchiha. 

TIER RANKINGS
Been thinking about this too. Though Naruto battles are like a mix of DBZ battles (power level based) and One Piece battles (purely matched up based) I think the system of linear power scaling does work. So This is how I see it. This is just my opinion so don't bash. I'll put three examples in each tier for comparisons. 
GENIN TIER
Konohamaru, Moegi, Udon. 
LOW CHŪNIN TIER
Iruka, Mizuki, Naruto at the start of the series. 
HIGH CHŪNIN TIER
Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara (Chunin Exam Arc)
LOW JŌNIN TIER
Kurenai, Shizune, Ebisu. 
MID JŌNIN TIER
Asuma, Guy, Yamato. 
HIGH JŌNIN TIER
Kakashi, Hidan, Konan.
LOW KAGE TIER
Deidara, Sasori, Kisame. 
MID KAGE TIER
Itachi, Ōnoki, Nagato. 
HIGH KAGE TIER
Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Tsunade. 
TOP KAGE TIER
Madara Uchiha, Hashirama Senju, Ten Tails Obito. 

Justifications for my tier placings which may have caused mass controversy: 

Hidan & Konan: You don't have to be Kage level to be an S Rank criminal. It was once said Kakashi would be an S Rank criminal if he was a villain. And he's just a Jōnin. 

Where I placed all the Sannin: Let's be real. They're canonically equal, and are > Pain, provided it's a one in one legit battle. Maybe Tsunade isn't > Pain but at least = Pain though I think she can beat Pain. When considering the fact that they are better than him, who is actually weaker than Hashirama but stronger than the Sannin?

Tsuande: in the Madara fight she was a leading Gokage with Ōnoki, while Raikage needed Ōnoki's help, Gaara's sealing Jutsu was useless and Mizukage was redundant. Plus, she's a Sannin whose displayed the potential to kill Orochimaru, something that no one else has done. Nagato said something like "From White Snake To Toad Jutsu, the Sannin all have their unique abilities". He respected the Sannin as equals and said that with knowledge (The Same Intel Orochimaru had, since he knew everything about Akatsuki. For the love of God him and Kabuto even figured out Tobi was Obito. See how badass Orochimaru is, but Kishimoto didn't give him knowledge of Itachi's powers on two serparate occasions so he could get one-panelled and soloed for the Uchiha hype, yet the  same Orochimaru knew everything about Tobi's identity and Pain's abilities so could have defeated him ...) he would never have won. Not that it would be a fairer battle, just flat out, Jiriaya would have beaten him, no question. Tsunade brought Jiriaya close to death. Orochimaru bitchslapped the same KN4 Naruto, that brought Jiraiya close to death. Itachi said even with backup (and Kisame was there), we can't win. He said back up. Yet Kisame was there, and he said, with back up. He implied if another Akatsuki came to their rescue Jiraiya would still mollywhop them. He admitted extreme inferiority to Jiraya, and Itachi only won against Orochimaru due to chance, happenings, situations, lack of Intel, Orochimaru not having the intent to kill (otherwise he would have summoned Manda on top of Itachi and called it a day ...) and the same Itachi basically said he was level three or four redundant against Jiriaya. Can't people see the mistakes their making. Tsunade and Orochimaru, this relates to. So this about that. Plus, Kakashi, who admitted level five redundancy against Orochimaru felt confident he could go against Itachi. Kakashi didn't know about MS but didn't know White Snake powers and Edo Tensei either, so this logic still applies. Itachi has three MS techniques. One was require to defeat Orochimaru's strongest Jutsu in an unfair (in terms of where they started, and who had Intel) battle, while Orochimaru was immobile. Another of those same white snake powers trolled Amaterasu (oral rebirth) and one more almost led to Sasuke's death (paralytic toxin). 

Ōnoki: He was a leading Gokage. I placed him with Itachi because without the existence of Obito, MS Sasuke (basically what one might call or compare to the Prime/Healthy "actually has stamina" Itachi that we never saw) would have been one-panelled by Ōnoki. He was the "Fence Sitter" known worldwide like the Sannin, and reached Kage candidate/Kage position level, like The Sannin, while Itachi was like Shisui and Kakashi, who had an elite Jōnin level reputation, and wasn't seen as a God. This makes sense doesn't it? Itachi must be a tier below the Sannin level. 

Jiriaya: Justified based on Manga Canon. 

Itachi: Explained in the Ōnoki section and basically this whole thread. 

Orochimaru: Explained in the Tsunade section and basically this whole thread. 

Itachi's win was not legit at the end of the day. Sorry for this repetition but: Naruto is not stronger than Kakuzu. Naruto was fresh out of training with a new Jutsu in his hand, literally. Kakuzu had already lost two hearts, had been fighting two Jōnin and and two Chūnin with his partner and was spamming elemental hax all day. If Kakuzu and Naruto were shopping in the market, and Naruto said, "hey, that's Akatsuki" and Kakuzu said, "hey, that's Kyuubi" and they ran into each other to start fighting, Naruto would have had his ass handed to him on a silver plate. Part II Sealed Orochimaru, whose virtually on the same tier as Kakuzu, wiped the floor with KN4 Naruto, so no, Naruto isn't stronger than Kakuzu. Naruto started out in Sage Mode, 3 bijuu sized toads summoned, Ma & Pa summoned, 2 clones with SM chakra summoned, fully rested, fresh out of training, with Intel from Shikamaru, the cypher division, Jiriaya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Ma & Pa, against Pain, who had been fighting a village all day looking for Naruto and had exhausted himself by using his strongest attack to nuke a village, (the last time an Akatsuki pulled off a nuke, they died in the process) shortening his lifespan. Jiraiya didn't have the luxuries Naruto did against Pain and Pain didn't have these handicaps against Jiraiya. You see how the Narutoverse works? Orochimaru needed to change his body, as it would have made no sense for him to try, and the last time we saw Orochimaru need a new host, he dropped dead on the KN4 battlefield then was bedridden against Sasuke. That's the condition Orochimaru had to have been in. Also, Orochimaru had no intent to kill, as he wanted Itachi's body, because like I said, if he had the intent to kill, he would have spat Kusanagi at him, or summoned Manda on top of him, knowing how sneaky and dangerous Itachi could be. In a fair fight, a lot of things could go in Oro's favour as well. People usually say Itachi speed blitzes. You'll see this scan somewhere further down, but there was such a small distance between Orochimaru and Hiurzen. Before they fought. The first thing Hiurzen did was throw Shuriken. Yet, in that small time frame, and in the seconds the Shuriken closed the distance (Shuriken travels fast) Orochimaru made the hand seals and summoned Edo Tensei coffins to tank the Shuriken which was so close to him. It was a distance equal to Orochimaru vs Itachi (the first time) and Kakashi didn't get instantly caught in Genjutsu when he fought Itachi (and they were close too), and either did Asuma, yet everyone thinks Itachi can just speed-blitz Orochimaru. I see no evidence which even proves Itachi is faster than Orochimaru in the first place, since he jumped from a giant snake, slammed Jiriaya into the ground with his tongue, then catapulted himself to the other side of the battlefield to stab Naruto, and then Tsunade jumped in the way, in all but what? Two panels (I mean as in two manga pages) yet Itachi couldn't dodge Shuriken or Katon Ryuu from Sasuke. Hiurzen was literally standing in front of Orochimaru, and in the time that it took a Shuriken to get to an Orochimaru that was running towards him, he was able to summon Edo coffins to tank shurikens that were literally thrown from fright in front of his face. Check the scan as you read below. Seems weird and unrealistic, but it's manga canon, unlike the phrase, "Itachi can speed blitz anyone, including Hagoromo". 


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CONCLUSION

PART 1:  MATCH UP
Keep this match up in mind:

Itachi Uchiha VS Orochimaru
Location: Itachi & Nagato Hiking Trip
Restrictions: Kotoamatsukami? (Not Legitimately Itachi's Anyway, but feel free to have side discussions about it as I have a counter for it if anyone wants to know ... )

Orochimaru
Conditions: Edo Tensei is prepped. All Orochimaru has to do is pull the coffins out and put the Fuda tags in (this is how it happened the one time Oro used Edo in battle).   Edo Hashirama can use the following
	⁃	Wood Style: Deep Forest Emergence (going by part one scaling and Jutsu speed)
	⁃	Wood Style: Deep Forest Bloom (same as his Jukai Kotan, but with pollen flowers)
	⁃	Wood Style: Wood Dragon Technique (will absorb chakra from anything it touches)
	⁃	Chakra Enhanced Strength (on the same level that Tsunade uses it)
Edo Tobirama can use the following
	⁃	Flying Thunder God Slash
	⁃	Shadow Clone Jutsu
	⁃	Paper Bomb Suicide Jutsu Thingy?
	⁃	Water Style (Any Suiton feats he has displayed over the course of the series, which includes the wall of water that blocked Hiruzen's Katon, the bullets of water blocked by Madara's susano'o, the stream of water which cut the God Tree's branch and then water dragon
No Zetsu Body, and then everything else Orochimaru has displayed. No Edo Minato or Edo Hiruzen, just to clarify. Just Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, with the feats I ruled out. Assume Orochimaru can summon Aoda, if you may think that he can't. 

Itachi
Conditions: Itachi starts in base too. He has three Tomoe Sharingan activated. His illness will not affect his performance until he starts using Mangekyo Sharingan Techniques (we go by the manga, and he has 3 shots at the one eye techniques, and three mins of Susano'o, canonically). He has no Edo feats. (I guess he can have Izanami and Kotoamatsukami, but nothing else combat wise such as any speed feats). All Susano'o feats, all Katon feats. Not much to say since there are no misconceptions where it concerns what Itachi is capable of in battle. It's just the Alive Itachi we saw. 

Location: Where Itachi & Nagato's Special Hiking Adventure Took Place: 
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Starting Distance: Around 10-20M, Twice The Distance When Oro & Hiruzen Fought:
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Might not look like a large distance, but in the time Hiurzen threw Shuriken, Orochimaru was able to make hand seals, summon Edos and have the coffins come up to tank the shurikens. "Itachi-Speed-Blitzes" fans .... Keep that sentence in mind. 

State Of Mind: IC (In Character), But Going For The Kill, No Underestimating Of Opponent. Who Wins? Use Canon Feats, Indubitable / Reliable DB Statements And Manga Scans To Support Arguments. No One Liners Like Itachi High Diff Or Oro Low Diff. Use Evidence, Either With Scans Or With Logic, Though Scans Are 
Preferred, Or Discuss The Issues I Brought Up In This Thread And Then State Your Verdict (Whoever Wins Mid Diff Etc) Based Off Of What You Discussed In Relevance To This Thread. 

DISCUSSION
It's been a long essay post. Some repetition. Sorry for the long read. Hope it was worth your time and feel free to debate about any of the issues and claims I brought up in this thread. I'm also free to discuss some of the things I said I would earlier such as Jiraiya VS Deidara & Sasori, Orochimaru Vs Deidara & Sasori or Hidan & Kakuzu, Jiraiya VS Itachi & Kisame, Orochimaru Vs Pain/Nagato, Orochimaru Vs Minato etc. Hell, it was said a Sannin could beat more than Itachi and Kisame, so if you want to, I'll discuss Healthy Orochimaru VS Itachi Uchiha, Kisame Hoshigaki, Sasori and Deidara. 

And no discussion about 'Healthy Itachi' or his twin brother 'Prime Itachi'. They do not exist in the Narutoverse. Use feats from the only living form of Itachi we have: Itachi. Or if you want, to call him 'Sick Itachi' but I really don't care. Part 2 Itachi If You Like. 

And please don't discuss this (nonsensical Uchiha fanboy's fanservice dustbin illogical trashcan garbage trash which recently appeared in game) as it is not manga canon:
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And is it just me or has anyone else had enough of Kishi's Uchiha fanboyish tendencies and lame Sharingan fanservice for itachiites. Because I'm sick to my stomach now. How they gonna give Itachi PS in th game when he barely had the stamina and life force to uphold Susano'o for two mins against Sasuke. Stupid, really. Just stupid. I wanted Kinkaku & Ginkaku, Pakura, Gari, Better Hanzo, Edo/Manda For Orochimaru, Gama And Katsuyu For Jira/Tsu, and sooooo much more for this game, but CC2 makes non canon BS  for Uchiha fanboys. Itachi is the Roronoa Zoro of Naruto. If you're a One Piece reader/watcher whose up to date in the manga you'll understand what i mean. 
And knowing how much of an Orochimaru fan I am, I wish they made Manda a Titan awakening like this:
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Wouldn't this be such a cool awakening for Oro. 
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You know, stuff that's actually Manga Canon. 

Anyway enough about that. Back to my thread. 

PART 2: MY FINAL THOUGHTS
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My Final Message: At the end of the day, the purpose of this thread is really to analyse Orochimaru. In want him to be taken more seriously than he actually is. If you still think he's weaker than Itachi after reading this then fine. Because although I did say I want to prove Orochimaru is more powerful than Itachi in order for him to be taken seriously, i really don't care, because I analysed him perfectly, tore manga facts apart, dissected statements, and analysed again and again, above and beyond, and even read between the lines of what I wrote when I read between the lines of the manga the first time. I  want other people to read this and discuss, but I also made this for myself, so I could truly believe that Orochimaru was more powerful than Itachi because I doubted it, at first, and I'll only believe something rational that makes sense and has been analysed. I know that Orochimaru is more powerful than Itachi so if anyone things differently, that's fine too. At the end of the day we all love this manga and enjoyed it regardless, and still do evidenced by how people are still making threads and still talking about it while awaiting the new PS4 Storm game. And that's really what is it is in the end, but let me say these last two things: If you consider anything I have written over 10 hours over the course of the last 5 days, bending over backward to get hundreds of scans, as complete and utter bullsh*t, then you also call the manga this, because 95% of what I've stated here is based off/backed up with manga facts (scans / statements / hype / feats) while the other 5% is pure speculation based of theory made from a logical, both real-world and Naruto-world standing (this is my first ever post and thread so I think I've done pretty damn good). And secondly, I believe the manga, not Kishimoto. Let me explain this. In Part I of Naruto (where logic mattered, let me also say that) Kakashi feared Orochimaru more than he feared Itachi, which created a gap in their power, and also, Itachi admitted extreme inferiority to Jiraiya (as he said he and Kisame together is what it would take to even have a fair fight, and even then they would still lose), who in turn admitted inferiority to Orochimaru, who did admit inferiority to Itachi, but only after he lost his arms and all his Jutsu. In Part II (where in the first half, hype and authors love of certain characters ruled over feats and logic, where situations were manipulated so that an Uchiha would never lose a fight and come out on top, and in the second half, logic was entirely thrown out the window, evidenced by Edo Itachi being more powerful than EMS Sasuke, Kakashi acquiring Susano'o and Madara using it without eyes, and see how this all revolves around Uchiha and their abilities), you just see how much of an Uchiha fanboy Kishimoto is. We see Orochimaru lose pathetically to Sharingan user three times, while his weaker rival Jiriaya, was stated to have the ability to defeat a Rinnegan user flat out [and I don't like how people say Nagato > Pain, because Pain's shared vision between paths, and keeping a secret was ultimately what allowed him to defeat Jiraiya, because Nagato we saw fight Itachi could probably be beaten by even Tsunade, and I really mean that when i say that]. The Sannin are underrated in general, but especially where it concerns Tsunade, and the main topic of this thread: Orochimaru. Like Naruto Vs Pain or Kakuzu, every time an Uchiha defeated Orochimaru, it was never legitimate. Sasuke using Orochimaru's curse seal on him is illogical since full power Orochimaru has shown the power to control and cause pain to his cursed seal recipients with a single seal, as he has control over his senjutsu chakra. Sasuke won for plot. Whereas Jiraiya never fought a central plot character, Orochimaru fought one twice (Naruto and Sasuke) and fought Itachi twice, who is an upgraded version of the latter, who essentially controls the plot since he is Kishimoto's favourite character, whereas Nagato was never the centre of the plot, just a villain to be beaten to show Naruto's development. What I'm trying to say here is that Itachi isn't really stronger than Orochimaru, but Kishimoto contradicted his own well written manga (referring to Part I, the good days, the logical days) for the sake of hyping up a certain class of character he thought was cool (Uchiha [In One Piece, it's swordsman, mainly Roronoa Zoro. One Piece readers will know what I'm talking about]) and liked a certain character in that class (first Itachi then slowly transitioned into Sasuke then he brought back Itachi to save the world while Nagato, despite being a hero as well, got sealed away for nothing so that Itachi could take centre stage and have the limelight once more). We ended up with Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi > Orochimaru. I couldn't follow my brain and take Orochimaru off at the beginning because I knew something wasn't right. So I took Orochimaru off at the end and followed my heart instead.) At the end of the day, I believe the Manga, not Kishimoto, because I love the manga not Kishimoto. Although I'm open to new theories concerning anything in life, I also do at the end want solid beliefs and do not want to have my head messed around with. Kishimoto can change who he thinks is stronger, Orochimaru or Itachi by ruining his own manga (this is one of several things that ruined Naruto in part 2, and although it may seem trivial, it means a lot to me, seeing as Orochimaru was from day 1 always my favourite character) but at the end of the day I see the manga is right, and I have ripped every sentence of this manga regarding Orochimaru and Itachi apart and analysed until I hit a dead end. I have joined it all up together and while it may seem convenient for me as an Orochimaru fan, I can see now that Orochimaru > Itachi. Why would someone who admitted inferiority to Jiraiya be stronger than Orochimaru, who is Jiriaya's superior, who in turn is Pain's superior, who in turn is Itachi's superior, by far. Why would someone stronger than Hiruzen Sarutobi, who was stronger than the current generation of the 5 Kage during the war arc and in Part I where we had a different Mizukage and maybe Raikage. MS Sasuke, who is an Itachi with better stamina, more eyesight unused, not ill and close to death, and inherited Indra's chakra levels, could not defeat the Raikage, someone explicitly inferior to Hiruzen, who is weaker than Orochimaru by a milestone. Why would someone who murderthe d a guy who constantly tailed beast constantly (4th Kazekage - 3rd Raikage / 4th Raikage were capable of this too), be weaker than Itachi Uchiha, who fought on the same level as Part I Kakashi unless he used his Mangekyo, the same Kakashi who lost control over his bladder and wet his pants when he saw Orochimaru. Why would Orochimaru, who is either slightly weaker than, slightly stronger than, or equal to Tsunade, who in turn is a better, more diverse version (with medical Jutsu, Summonings, stronger punches) of the Raikage, who is by all means canonically superior to Itachi, be weaker than Itachi. Why would Orochimaru, who is stronger than Hiruzen, who is stronger than Part I Gokage, which includes Yagura, a perfect jinchuriki (MS Sasuke, who is logically stronger than Itachi, could not bring down Killer Bee permanently, as he retreated, and could have come back to destroy Sasuke when his Mangekyo got tired and needed to recharge) be weaker than Itachi Uchiha. Why would Orochimaru, be weaker than Itachi, who needed his second most powerful technique to escape one of Jiriaya's Jutsu, then his third most powerful technique to bring down someone who was portrayed as nothingness when compared alongside Orochimaru, one of the Sannin. Why would Orochimaru, who was equal to or probably stronger than Sasori, who was stronger than Deidara, who was on the same level as Hebi Sasuke that defeated Itachi. And Hebi Sasuke won that battle due to pure chance, doesn't have the ability to destroy a whole village and can't defeat Gaara so I'm changing that. Why would Orochimaru, who is stronger than Sasori, who is stronger than Deidara, who is stronger than Hebi Sasuke who is stronger than Itachi at his last, most recent showing in a living state, be weaker than Itachi in the end. He lost to him twice due to circumstantial happenings. Itachi won due to situation. It was not a legitimate win. Just like Pain's win over Jiriaya wasn't. A lot of fights over the series didn't have a legit win, but why I'm not ranting about those is because people agree that Kakuzu > Early Part 2 Naruto. People agree that Pain > Mid Part 2 Naruto (who didn't start in SM, have 3 boss toad summoned + Ma & Pa, 2 shadow clones charging up SM chakra, fresh out of training) against MS Sasuke, yet had all this prep against Pain, who was exhausted fighting a village all morning and afternoon looking for Naruto, and had shortened his life expectancy by using Chou Shinra Tensei to nuke an entire village. People agree that Sasuke's win over Deidara was a little funny. But yet despite the fact Itachi had some illegitimate wins too, due to favourite-character-hype-boy-I-love-Sharingan-syndrome, everyone would say Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Orochimaru (and don't realise how mistaken they are), the same Orochimaru who was Minato's rival for hokage (Minato > Itachi otherwise Itachi would have been a hokage candidate, like Jiriaya who he admitted inferiority to, and Orochimaru who Jiriaya admitted inferiority to, yet was declared superiority to the Six Paths of Pain), stronger than Hiurzen (who was hyped so much, and it was stated by Monkey King Enma that this hyped to the extreme God [who was said to be and explicitly proven to be stronger than the super saiyan wrestlers we call 3rd/4th Raikage, perfect jinchuriki of 3 tails, Kazekage that trolled Shukaku numerous times and was better than f*cking Ōnoki who can stop meteors from hitting earth in his bad hair / bad back day]) was what it would take to beat Orochimaru that used striking shadow snakes, Kusanagi and Edo Tensei. That was it. That was all he used in that fight. Yet Orochimaru has so much more. And I mean so much more. Plus, Hiruzen said it would take Minato to beat him without even taking into account any of the abilities that stem from the White snake [one of which, took Totsuka sword to defeat, and another of which trolled Amaterasu into the f*cking ground] or Edo Tensei [which was used to summon the First F*cking Hokage and the Damn Second Hokage] because he didn't know about them. So in all actuality, Orochimaru is actually stronger than Orochimaru. You won't believe this now, but after reading this - The same Orochimaru was slated as a threat to EMS Sasuke - you'll believe me. And why would Orochimaru who is at the very least in the same tier as EMS Sasuke (I admit 'threat' is a little vague, but I couldn't take that statement any further as I don't operate on a mindless basis as such as that, that being a threat means you are >>>>> than someone) who was no matter what happened in the Kabuto fight better than alive Itachi. Why would Orochimaru who is either equal to or stronger than SM Kabuto (his power level lowered because he didn't use his Edo army in direct combat, so he is weaker than Orochimaru) be weaker than Itachi when the only ability Itachi had to beat this guy is redundant against Orochimaru and 95% of the Narutoverse. Plus, Itachi had help from a F*cking Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan wielder in that fight just to pull Izanami off. Why would the Orochimaru who discovered the secret to immortality (Yamata, White Snake, Gathering of the Snakes, Durability, Survival Capabilities, Oral Rebirth & Fushi Tensei) be weaker than someone who discovered the secret to having a terminal illness. Why would Orochimaru who is canonically stronger than Ōnoki (as Ōnoki < Hiruzen < Oro) be weaker than Itachi (who is slower than the MS Sasuke that couldn't escape Jinton, while Orochimaru, who is faster than weightless Lee, and faster than Kabuto who dodged Amaterasu in the cave fight, should be able to dodge Jinton like Madara could) while Itachi admitted complete inferiority (he said Me + Kisame < Or = Jiriaya) to Orochimaru's childhood rival, who sooner than later began to, and throughout life, admit that Orochimaru was his superior. Orochimaru has a moveset that allows him to handle opponents that Itachi cannot, as such as Pain, because face it, Orochimaru may not have sage mode with Ma & Pa haxx, but has White Snake Form/Yamata Form which stems from it with Edo Shodai & Edo Nidaime hax. And BTW, he has no feats for it, but why would Orochimaru's Edo Hashirama be able to use Flowering Tree World and everything else he discovered in the forest of hax. What suggest this? In Part I his Edo's abilities were not watered down. Their personalities were. He had no reason to use high level techniques as a mindless zombie, clearly, as Orochimaru won the fight, and obviously, Kishi didn't think that technique up back in 2010. It's 2015 or 14 where we saw Kajukai Kourin. We saw alive Hiruzen used mud wall but Edo didn't. We saw Edo Hiurzen use five elements but alive didn't. Just like we saw Edo Nidaime Part I use suiton and no space time, but with Part 2, it was the reverse. I didn't see part two Edo Hashirama use Kokuangyo, which Part I did, and we never saw any Edo Hashirama use Kokuangyo. They use what they feel they need to use, whatever state of mind they are in, or what Orochimaru tells them to through psychic or verbal communication. And plus, Orochimaru wanted to play with Hiurzen, and maybe didn't even want to kill him (Hiurzen was the only person Orochimaru ever respected. He was a father figure to him. Hiruzen felt Orochimaru could change while everyone else branded him a weirdo or a criminal or a freak or a deranged cynical orphan. Remember when he shed a tear before fighting Hiruzen? He said he was just tired but Hiruzen didn't believe him and Orochimaru knew that Hiruzen didn't believe him. Orochimaru was chased out of his hometown. He returned with boss summons, Edo Tensei, army of sound and sand ninja alliance. He wanted to be acknowledge. Like, "You see? You should have chosen me to be the Fourth Hokage." He wanted his master to acknowledge him. Keep it 100, Orochimaru only went for the kill when his most prized possession and the only thing he felt love for: his Jutsu: was at risk. My point is that Orochimaru wouldn't be having Edo Hashirama spam Pollen Forest if he didn't want to kill Hiruzen.  Or wanted to play with him and kill him slowly, not knock him out with K.O. pollen haxx. Same with Edo Tobirama and Hiraishingiri which was so rigged it one-shotted Izuna, a better version of Itachi and the Sasuke that fought Danzo, in theory, as he was closer to Indra's bloodline and had bijuu level chakra (he was stated to be equal to Madara, MS Madara of course, and the boys were famed among Uchiha for having such powerful chakra, even in those days where everyone was Kage level [you see why they're gods now?]). Enough rambling. The whole point of this thread? My hopes were that this thread would be an eye opener. I may seem cynical, sour that my favourite character got one-shotted thrice by the same power, and just crazy, right now, but there was a time where we were once made to believe that the Sannin were a tier above Itachi, and than one Sannin could take on two Akatsuki and win. And when you take the whole manga into account and cast aside mistakes or misconceptions Kishimoto created for the Uchiha fanbase's sake, you will realise this is true.  I mean, with Katsuyu, Ranshinsho, Medical Chakra Overload, Chakra Scalpels And Superhuman Strength to the point you make the Raikage wonder "What have I been doing with my life all this time?" Is it so hard to believe Tsunade (who can regenerate heart stabs or her heart being sucked out by the guy that has 5) could beat Hidan & Kakuzu? Or are you influenced by least-favourite-character-syndrome and she's-a-woman-she's-weak-and-only-good-for-fanservice-syndrome? Open your eyes! Please? Jiriaya vs Pain & Konan, equal knowledge both sides, this time, Jiraiya will summon Gamabunta instead of Gamaken, and will use Yomi Numa? And Jiriaya doesn't have to die to forward the plot as in the main character has to beat the reigning villain. Self explanatory really. Orochimaru vs Sasori & Deidara? It's not even fair because Orochimaru is immune to poison, can Kusanagi or Sen'ei Jashu any puppets, merge with and escape through the ground to evade C4, has other bijuu sized super strong summons which means he doesn't even need to wake Manda up in the morning to come and tank C3 or C0 for him, and also has Yamata which can tank and then regenerate. As for Itachi and Kisame, don't want to seem under rating but any Sannin could take them. I put one Sannin for each pair above so they all stand out. For this one, Tsunade releases Byakugo / Yin Seal chakra into herself to snap out of any Genjutsu, punches Kisame like Killer B used Lariat, puts him out of commission (Tsunade >>>>> Raikage w/ Ōnoki > Raikage without = V1 Bee in terms of raw physical strength), and since there' no chakra like a bijuu cloak just lying around to be absorbed in order to weaken the attack, and then and regenerate after, Kisame, can't regenerate and slowly bleeds to death while marking shark sounds. Right after punching Kisame, Tsuande runs to Itachi, who jumps back to close the distance, and uses Amaterasu, but Tsunade, who was told by her grandpa, stories about Uchiha and their abilities, side steps like A did. You don't really need V2 speed. Just reactions speed. Nagato reacted to the build up of Amaterasu's chakra even though he got hit. SM Kabuto dodged Amaterasu like it was nothing, from an EMS user. If she gets hit, remember Amaterasu burns slowly. She can regenerate any body part. If Amaterasu hits her arm, she removes it with chakra scalpel and regenerates. If it hits her leg, same.  If it hits her chest, she cuts her breasts off and regenerates, or cuts her head off and regenerates from there. If it hits her head she does the reverse. While her regeneration is limitless as long as she is in Byakugo mode (which lasted her the whole fight against Madara) but Itachi can't say the same about Amaterasu. Tsunade easily shattered Madara Ribcage Susano'o. It was stated in databook that Madara Susano'o Ribcage >>>> Itachi or Sasuke Susano'o Ribcage. So Tsunade finger flicks. A was able to push back Madara's V2 Susano'o, anything he can do, Tsunade can do better. BTW if Katsuyu is out before Itachi is in Susano'o, he's in trouble. V3 legged Susano'o was knocked down by Tsunade so she smashes Itachi's. Against V4, she summons 100% Katsuyu and injects chakra into Katsuyu to make her acid slime enormous like how she made Ōnoki's Jinton bijuu sized and upon seeing such a powerful attack, (and Tsunade did that with the last of her chakra. Itachi doesn't have the stamina nor skill nor reserves to exhaust Tsunade in battle) hits Katsuyu with Totsuka. Katusyu splits what it can off while being slowly sealed, because Katusyu is very big, Tsunade gets behind Itachi, slams into Susano'o with all her power, or sends a fissure into the chakra similar to Ranshinsho, as it affects nerves and chakra, so may distort Susano'o before she attacks, and then inside it, hits Itachi with Ranshinsho in the back and kills him. Jiraiya Vs Itachi & Kisame? Do I need to explain this word for word? Orochimaru Vs Itachi & Kisame? I spent 85% of this thread explaining this one. Let me leave you with those thoughts as you feel free to participate in a discussion about any of the issues in this thread. And play nicely please. This is my first ever thread, and I don't want it to get locked, as you can see, I've put a lot of time, hard work, and effort into making this thread (10 hours over the course of 5 days) for us all. 

And just to remind This is the Orochimaru before he got his Zetsu Body and Full Power Edo Hokages I'm talking about (otherwise it would be a complete stomp). I'm talking about healthy Oro with part 1 state Edo's, all Summonings and techniques from part 1, and part 2 feats from his fights with Itachi, Sasuke and Naruto. Prime Orochimaru. 

Plus Any Other Conditions I Stated For The Match Up With Itachi, Who Starts In Base. 


Now feel free to discuss to your heart's content.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

At least read the post first


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## Matty (Oct 11, 2015)

God damn man, you put way too much thought into this. At least I know someone else now who will appreciate the Orochimaru/Sasori pairing


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