# Cussing In Gaming



## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

So ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages....I wanted to talk about this issue for a while now. This is about frequently use of bad language in gaming world which more or less is standard norm in many Rated M titles that you might come across or that's at least what I noticed.

Lets start with a bit of my own gaming experience. Let's say I got into gaming like many of you at very young age at about age of 5 in those awesome "swallow your quarters for lunch and dinner" arcade halls back in mid 90's. But let's go forward into an era 2 years later where it really started for me big time. 

We are talking about playstation 1 era. 3D graphics hit me like a ton of bricks with that nice taste on top you couldn't have enough of. It was all very awesome at the time and as you all know such things as bad language wasn't even though of as "cool thing" to use in video games(not that I had any concept at what bad language was at the time though). TBH even the most gory and violent video games out there which could use lots of bad language to spice things up didn't do just that. Now in retrospect I have the respect for that generation in that regard. 

So moving on. In early 00's came this new and at the time awesomely improved ps2 which I had to get my hands on. And I did. I played a lot of my favorite franchise games on it. Games like resi code v, gta 3, vice city, prince of persia, MGS, devil may cry, max payne, tekken 4 and eventually the brilliantly gory and smartly set in Greek Mythology(which I found very interesting) God of War series.

So how much cussing and bad language did I find in these games and in that generation of me playing them? Well biggest bad word I came across was from that guy Ricardo Diaz(if you know who I mean) who uses the simple but effective words "dickheads, dickheads everywhere yo"...in otherwise pretty clean game when it comes to language(IMO of course). 

So now we move into the ending of this current generation of ps4, xbox 360 era. Most of these previous titles I mentioned and more for whatever reason decided that cussing in games should be included for whatever reason. Maybe in order to make characters more offentic for their times and roles but maybe include bad language just because they can. I really dunno the real reason but most games I pick up these days just ich to throw all the cussing and mouthing off as they can.

Don't get me wrong though I do understand it is given in certain titles and I get it and don't really pay much attention to people in saints row cussing like all the time. It just comes with the gang culture they want to portray(one example) but when my all time favorite franchises just get dirted on without it being necessary for them to be a really good games(and it's not..matter of fact it makes me enjoy dialogue more without the unnecessary cussing if possible and pay attention to the fact that people are talking instead of thinking that they are cussing needlessly). 

For example let's take the newest games in the franchise like Max Payne, Dante and the newest member of RE family Jack Muller from RE6. Jack Muller and Payne cuss eventually. It's not that bad most of the time but IMO neither need it to make them better characters..nor make it into more realistic or enjoyable gaming experiences. Now this newest Dante and the whole game I had a bit of an issue with. Just know when to stop Ninja Theory. You made a great game and the character change is whole another issue which I won't go into now but goodness graces me it seems he and the villains cuss just because I suppose to think they are all so bad ass but it has the opposite effect. At one point in this game it's downright off putting(if you played it you can guess which part).

So to sum it up...I don't mind a violent video and I don't mind them cussing(if it is done the right way and not over the top) but it does disturbs me that this gen just has this ich to put a norm on bad language without it being necessity. It doesn't improve my gaming experience and at times it detracts. 

Now do you agree, disagree or you do you simply not care? In any case do you believe that game developers should use moderation or simply should do whatever the hell they think the consumers want to see and hear? Do take your time to read and think about it before you respond. Don't do it on instinct


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 14, 2013)

Swearing isn't even a problem. Saying that you're disturbed by this is a bit of an overreaction.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

*That wasn't the main point. Ok now to anyone who think like that...I have to ask you. Does swearing add anything for you in gaming? 

It's not about that it's a problem and as I said in moderate and normal levels it's not a problem but since it often doesn't add it detracts and when it does I start to wonder why it's there and when I do I make topics like these which I do hope some of people here actually read and reflect before they answer.

It's not an overreaction either since I thought a lot about this and have made my intentions clear.... this is not "omgzz they swear in gamingz and hatez that".... it's about what I(this means myself) find distracting. *


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## Vermin (Oct 14, 2013)

they are just words


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## Furious George (Oct 14, 2013)

Just like with anything else, it all hinges on how the swearing is handled. 

I have no problem with swearing in general. I have a problem with being pandered to like I'm a 12 year old hiding this from my parents. 

Swearing in GTA5 is handled with a lot of realism and works well with the world itself, so I love it. 

Swearing in NuDMC is handled in the most immature way possible and screams focus group, so I hate it.


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## dream (Oct 14, 2013)

> Does swearing add anything for you in gaming?



If done well I suppose that it could inverse me in the game a bit more but it's not something that I particularly want in games.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

Furious George said:


> Just like with anything else, it all hinges on how the swearing is handled.
> 
> I have no problem with swearing in general. I have a problem with being pandered to like I'm a 12 year old hiding this from my parents.
> 
> ...



*Can't argue GTA5 since I haven't played the game and still waiting for that PC version to come out eventually to find out if rockstar has atoned for all their wrong doings with GTA4. Can't say I loved the direction but ironically saints row was better choice in many regards. 

LOL I get what you mean. As you say at times it is played in the most immature fashion ever which I as much as you dislike.

DMC reboot just had to push it with it's immature cussing which I didn't enjoy. Otherwise IMO game as reboot was fantastic. Considering it was the only real flaw for me I think this game should still get credit. 

*spoiler alert* 

Although scenes like these make my ears bleed TBH:*


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]BxYChv2j0Uo[/YOUTUBE]






Dream said:


> If done well I suppose that it could inverse me in the game a bit more but it's not something that I particularly want in games.



*Does it distract you? 

*


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## P3IN (Oct 14, 2013)

Well apparently it's common, Tbh, never gave a single fuck about it, but it gradually does become annoying  if overused 

As far as online gaming goes ....


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

*Whole another area that multi player gaming. There is a reason why I left that part out. That is where you get interaction with 10 year olds and it's not always pleasant..so let's just stick with single player gaming experiences.

None the less I believe that the only game I played that really had swearing to actually add something to the gameplay was the old fallout 2 classic. If wanted it could give you options to answer in some dark humor fashion that I did find funny back in the day.*


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 14, 2013)

DmC's obsession with swearing was just bad writing. (It had a terrible story)

I doubt kids now a days care about the cussing either. Parents might. But i haven't seen any that care that much.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

*Hence why I told people my gaming history. I'm on my third generation on video gaming. Some of these kids are on their first. I seen through the evolution of alot of it. It's simply just experience, knowledge and observations that I'm sharing. 

As for me i do care if the game just tries far to hard like DMC did. I do believe anyone who is old enough and can think for themselves should question some aspects also. We can make our voices heard these days... in the end it's more about if people give it a thought or not. 

Now as for DMC having a bad story I have to disagree. IMO it had good story(actually this time it had a more mature story), more serious characters and it was more relatable in terms of hitting closer to heart. 

I don't hate it because it's unique and different and had a different title character. It was good in it's own right and anyone who picked up the game already knew about the changes(most likely). Only bad thing as said juvenile swearing. *


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## cnorwood (Oct 14, 2013)

i remember when i was shocked zero said damn in x4


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## bigduo209 (Oct 14, 2013)

The truth is that the gaming industry hasn't quite grown with it's audience.

The audience that grew-up with certain franchises that were largely over-the-top in terms of violence and language have matured to some degree.

When I was in Middle/High School I thought it was cool to swear and watch/play violent things. Now that I'm older? I care less about those elements unless there's some genuine context or tone behind those things.

That's ultimately where games have failed to evolve, the dialogue where the unsavory language is constantly used doesn't warrant enough context or much of a tone to be used that way.

GTA/Saints Row tend to be an exception because of their over-the-top antics, and the minds behind God of War understands the context of it's violence in terms of Greek Mythology without overstepping their bounds in the language department (aside from "damn" or "hell" being used in the old literal sense). There are some other exceptions, but still very few and far-inbetween.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

cnorwood said:


> i remember when i was shocked zero said damn in x4



*The what game? *



bigduo209 said:


> The truth is that the gaming industry hasn't quite grown with it's audience.
> 
> The audience that grew-up with certain franchises that were largely over-the-top in terms of violence and language have matured to some degree.
> 
> ...



*Yeah but people who have grown up with current gen consoles don't even care since it has become part of the norm as I described. 

And since people are not complaining gaming industry does not need to take anything to heart and keep pushing for more unnecessary bad language. 

Sure it was cool back when it was this forbidden thing. Although there is an entire generation or 2 who actually have matured and rather play video games for the fun aspects and not necessary unneeded ones. Do game developers even know that not only teens and kids play these sort of violent video games? 

I would rather believe that older generation would like to have more focus on more solid gameplay than them putting energy into trying to make someone look badass just because...oh look he just said fuck...how cool is that guy? 

As far as GTA and saints row they are still at the moment different and went to different directions. GTA chose realism over fun and saints row did the opposite. GTA last time I played felt far more mature. Saints row became the over the top one.

As for god of war I'm with you. I have deep respect for santa monica since they understand what kind of franchise they are dealing with and suddenly just have kratos blast swears would be terrible downgrade to their anti hero. It just shows that a game doesn't need any of that to be a great game. We love them just the way they are. Other developers should take notice. 

As for damn and hell that's hardly swearing. I can tolerate that sort. As long as he doesn't blast words like fuck, cunt, dick, asshole, shit(like everyone other sentence) and so on I will be right as rain. *


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## Hunted by sister (Oct 14, 2013)

ice77 said:


> Does swearing add anything for you in gaming?


Swearing in games is a non-issue. It neither adds nor detracts anything. However, it is appropriate in quite a few instances. It's just words, and all words have a time and place for them. 

There are very few instances where I could tell swearing wasn't supposed to be there. Off the top of my heads, I can't think of any, actually.

//HbS


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 14, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> There are very few instances where I could tell swearing wasn't supposed to be there. Off the top of my heads, I can't think of any, actually.
> 
> //HbS



Most of DmC.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> Swearing in games is a non-issue. It neither adds nor detracts anything. However, it is appropriate in quite a few instances. It's just words, and all words have a time and place for them.
> 
> There are very few instances where I could tell swearing wasn't supposed to be there. Off the top of my heads, I can't think of any, actually.
> 
> //HbS



*Does it ruin characters? If say a person in the beginning of the franchise does not cuss starts doing it? Does it change a character?

Oh and btw cute sig and yes it does suit her .*



8-Peacock-8 said:


> Most of DmC.



*DMC survived just fine without it for 4 games in a row. Can't see how the 5th installment added anything. 

But the new studio just had to play it cool for the kids didn't it? *


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## Hunted by sister (Oct 14, 2013)

8-Peacock-8 said:


> Most of DmC.


I didn't play any of the DMC games  and the only thing I watched was the dramatic fill with light scream scene.


ice77 said:


> Does it ruin characters? If say a person in the beginning of the franchise does not cuss starts doing it? Does it change a character?


No, it doesn't ruin. Yes, it does change, it might be evolution connected to the storyline. Look at Spec Ops: The Line. It makes perfect sense for the main character to go from by-the-book guy to cussing like a friend.

//HbS


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 14, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> I didn't play any of the DMC games  and the only thing I watched was the dramatic fill with light scream scene.



EDIT: Play everything up to the most recent one. And stop there. 



ice77 said:


> *But the new studio just had to play it cool for the kids didn't it? *



Play it cool for the immature twelve year olds.


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## Hunted by sister (Oct 14, 2013)

8-Peacock-8 said:


> Just look up videos of it.  (don't bother playing it)


I heard DMC4 and DMC 2013 are worth playing. Both seem to be great spectacle fighters, and I don't give a darn about Dante being differnet in DMC 2013, which seems to be the main and only complaint I've heard about it. Besides minor stuff I don't care about either.

//HbS


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> I didn't play any of the DMC games  and the only thing I watched was the dramatic fill with light scream scene.
> 
> No, it doesn't ruin. Yes, it does change, it might be evolution connected to the storyline. Look at Spec Ops: The Line. It makes perfect sense for the main character to go from by-the-book guy to cussing like a friend.
> 
> //HbS



*You can grab DMC HD Collection at any time. Should be really cheap by now. 

Depends how you look at it. Yes it does change but I ain't saying is for the positive. Also usually there is no logical explanation other then the studio went to more edgy direction which is not always needed and one can say not needed at all in order to enjoy the character....to each their own I guess. 

Spec Ops? Haven't heard nor played these games and games which I have not played I cannot judge. If we are talking about giving characters depth or something along those lines swearing is still not needed. Give them good background story, some cool dialogue and let him bounce it off with other characters and I will be more than happy.

Also something that Max Payne games done so well is let you actually feel what the main character is feeling which actually leads to players really relating to that character and the journey he/she is taking. Worked very well in fist few games cuss free...not like I really had any problems with the third and him occasionally swearing is not that of a problem...bigger problem lies in games like dmc reboot that almost no one will address. *


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 14, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> I heard DMC4 and DMC 2013 are worth playing.
> 
> //HbS



i just noticed your talking about the franchise. 

I'm talking about the most recent one.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

8-Peacock-8 said:


> Play it cool for the immature twelve year olds.



*LOL pretty much what I said(more or less).*



Hunted by sister said:


> I heard DMC4 and DMC 2013 are worth playing. Both seem to be great spectacle fighters, and I don't give a darn about Dante being different in DMC 2013, which seems to be the main and only complaint I've heard about it. Besides minor stuff I don't care about either.
> 
> //HbS



*DMC 1,3,4, DMC 2013 are all worth playing. Second one is the biggest disappointment in the series. Had to sell it after like an hour of horrible game design. 

Well yeah fans will complain about the change but it's better it happened sooner rather than later. Otherwise we would be playing same game for the 5th time. New team still brought some really good things to the franchise. 
*


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## dream (Oct 14, 2013)

ice77 said:


> Does it distract you?



Unless the cussing is excessive I barely pay any attention to it.


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## Lulu (Oct 14, 2013)

For me it depends on execution/when it is used in context to story. When used horribly it can make the sir cuss a lot character rather annoying.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

Dream said:


> Unless the cussing is excessive I barely pay any attention to it.



*Well same here but at times they just push it too far. It's when it gets to annoying levels where I want to draw the line.

If only people cared more.
*


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## Doom85 (Oct 14, 2013)

It all depends on the game and the execution. There should be no cussing in anything to do with Mario, Zelda, or the like for example. Games like Final Fantasy or such shouldn't go beyond a PG-level of profanity. Stuff like GTA should be swimming in profanity, toning down the cussing is about as logical as the edited cable version of The Sopranos (AKA doesn't work). 

I think a great recent example is The Last of Us where it worked perfectly. A world that has been ravaged by the infected for 20 years, only the most delusional would still be trying to hold onto a social norm that cussing in public is unacceptable, so some of the characters (even Ellie, who's only 14) cussing quite frequently works. It helps that they have talented voice actors who deliver it in a solid way, don't think voice acting quality has been mentioned as a relevant point in this thread yet. Strong writing and solid acting lead to powerful emotional moments (won't quote any here, no spoilers) and hilarious moments that work well even with (or even better with arguably) profanity.

(example of funny moment)

Joel: Well then what the hell is plan B?
Bill: You ought to be thankful you're still drawing breath. That was plan A, B, C, all the way to fucking Z!


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## Linkdarkside (Oct 14, 2013)

depend in which type of game i would hate cursing in a Elder Scroll game even if it rated M ,it would feel wrong.


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## Lishenron (Oct 14, 2013)

Honestly? I'm in the " dont give a darn" group. don't really care if a game has it or not either way.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

Doom85 said:


> It all depends on the game and the execution. There should be no cussing in anything to do with Mario, Zelda, or the like for example. Games like Final Fantasy or such shouldn't go beyond a PG-level of profanity. Stuff like GTA should be swimming in profanity, toning down the cussing is about as logical as the edited cable version of The Sopranos (AKA doesn't work).
> 
> I think a great recent example is The Last of Us where it worked perfectly. A world that has been ravaged by the infected for 20 years, only the most delusional would still be trying to hold onto a social norm that cussing in public is unacceptable, so some of the characters (even Ellie, who's only 14) cussing quite frequently works. It helps that they have talented voice actors who deliver it in a solid way, don't think voice acting quality has been mentioned as a relevant point in this thread yet. Strong writing and solid acting lead to powerful emotional moments (won't quote any here, no spoilers) and hilarious moments that work well even with (or even better with arguably) profanity.
> 
> ...



*Hey bro easy don't give them any ideas. They might want to make more edgy mario and zelda. You just never know really. 

Now besides that in the end it's all about what they got you accustomed with. In the end you just except the fact that they cuss in certain game franchises and no longer give a damn.

Also it doesn't sound like you played GTA3 nor Vice city. Can't say they went over PG area in those games but still managed to be masterpieces that they became....cuss free and yes if you played you know it did work. You just got used to the whole idea and now it just feels natural that they follow the norm they set themselves..simple. 

Ah yes the last of us..one of those games which I do really like to play and beat one day..don't have an xbox though so it's a problem. 

Also as I said before if done right it can create certain really funny sounding situations and in those cases creators should feel free. Just don't overuse it and make me feel like a 12 year old juvenile kid who is suppose to think that those who cuss are bad asses since they do. 
*


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## Kakashifan727 (Oct 14, 2013)

A case in point for the opposite; NIER. It has a char (T&A woman with a stripperific outfit) who cusses all the damn time. You can even hear it in the intro to the game:

Link removed

It tries to be dark and edgy but it makes the scene fail. I dunno, I never liked her character anyway and would replace her in a heartbeat even though she's VA'd by Bailey.


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## Lulu (Oct 14, 2013)

Lol. Dark & edgy mario/zelda games. That would be a sight to see. Thankfully it won't happen.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 14, 2013)

Luey said:


> Lol. Dark & edgy mario/zelda games. That would be a sight to see. Thankfully it won't happen.



I dunno man Luigi's eyebrows sure look mean.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

Luey said:


> Lol. Dark & edgy mario/zelda games. That would be a sight to see. Thankfully it won't happen.



*Happened with prince of persia which I never thought would go to any gothic dark place with PoP WW. Not that they ever went that far with it, it was just magic was literally gone after the 2003 version. 

Especially with Link... it seems that they could easily go to a very dark place with that character. I mean seriously you can only remain a coocie cutter good guy for that long before someone drops the obvious idea on the table. *


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 14, 2013)

ice77 said:


> *Happened with prince of persia which I never thought would go to any gothic dark place with PoP WW. Not that they ever went that far with it, it was just magic was literally gone after the 2003 version.
> 
> Especially with Link... it seems that they could easily go to a very dark place with that character. I mean seriously you can only remain a coocie cutter good guy for that long before someone drops the obvious idea on the table. *



Link has killing blows/finishing moves already.


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## Monna (Oct 14, 2013)

Shame there will never be another Sonic game like Shadow the Hedgehog. That is Sonic done right. Damn fourth chaos emerald.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

8-Peacock-8 said:


> Link has killing blows/finishing moves already.



*I'm talking about something like going from this:*


*Spoiler*: __ 











*To this:*


*Spoiler*: __ 











*Did this happen to Link series yet? *






Jane Crocker said:


> Shame there will never be another Sonic game like Shadow the Hedgehog. That is Sonic done right. Damn fourth chaos emerald.



*Sometimes I just want to wake up from the bed in morning and believe sonic that I loved died in 90's. Sometimes it's a success but I get constantly reminded of the massive failure that those games became in 00's. 
*


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## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

I think this all going to be somewhat based on each person's feeling towards cussing itself. like zyken said, they are just words to me.

that means that their potential to enhance or detract from the quality of a game is entirely dependent on the way that they are presented. often times in maturer (lol) video games, cussing is used in an inane fashion and is done only to serve the devs' goal of conforming to a certain image or culture (e.g. the gang culture you described). in these instances, I don't find cussing to necessarily detract from the experience of the game, but I see it as more of a failure to contribute something worthwhile. but I'm a glass half full kind-of-guy.

as for the second part of your query, I think it is obvious from a monetary standpoint that the devs should and will continue to do what they think the consumers want to see and hear. a lot of time actually goes into pinpointing the demands of consumers and analyzing the developing interests of the (gaming) public. so it's a given that this trend will continue; companies would stand to lose money if they didn't. now do I personally think that devs should cool it on the usage of profanity? when it comes to curbing the explicitness of the content that modern video games offer, I think choppy scripts that are littered with "bad words" are the least of potential concerns for the future of popular media...


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## Monna (Oct 14, 2013)

ice77 said:


> *Sometimes I just want to wake up from the bad in morning and believe sonic that I loved died in 90's. Sometimes it's a success but I get constantly reminded of the massive failure that those games became in 00's. *


Imo Sonic didn't become shit until Unleashed was created, and it never recovered from that. I don't mind cartoony Sonic, anime Sonic, or edgy Sonic; it's the hedgehog engine and the completely uninspired plots and designs plaguing the series. Consistency needs to be a thing.

This has nothing to do with the subject of cursing though so I'll leave it at that.


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## ice77 (Oct 14, 2013)

Saru said:


> I think this all going to be somewhat based on each person's feeling towards cussing itself. like zyken said, they are just words to me.
> 
> that means that their potential to enhance or detract from the quality of a game is entirely dependent on the way that they are presented. often times in maturer (lol) video games, cussing is used in an inane fashion and is done only to serve the devs' goal of conforming to a certain image or culture (e.g. the gang culture you described). in these instances, I don't find cussing to necessarily detract from the experience of the game, but I see it as more of a failure to contribute something worthwhile. but I'm a glass half full kind-of-guy.
> 
> as for the second part of your query, I think it is obvious from a monetary standpoint that the devs should and will continue to do what they think the consumers want to see and hear. a lot of time actually goes into pinpointing the demands of consumers and analyzing the developing interests of the (gaming) public. so it's a given that this trend will continue; companies would stand to lose money if they didn't. now do I personally think that devs should cool it on the usage of profanity? when it comes to curbing the explicitness of the content that modern video games offer, I think choppy scripts that are littered with "bad words" are the least of potential concerns for the future of popular media...


*
I already explained my standpoint on cussing in gaming so any further explanation on that is not needed. 

So what are you saying exactly? Swearing became really cool sometime 2005 in gaming and we just got along on this one big ride of fun? Or it simply became the norm to make these games which follow each others lead into swear zone? 

Anyways as I said yes I described the gang culture and there are no problems with that. I'm saying that other devs should be able to make their own decisions about the norms of their current game. It's not written in stone anywhere that you need to follow some made up norm that some game set at some point to make you game a success..just saying. 

Besides the public as I said do not care that much. They just consume the next popular thing without either knowing the history of it nor caring. Besides I noticed how many of them became players in this current gen when the graphics became really pretty and it became mainstream thing to do. Nor do they follow the evolution of what's happening in the industry. It's annoying but these are the people devs are trying to lure with a lot of failure and success. 

No the game stands and falls still to this day how good, bad or popular it becomes. Also some brands are such successes that no matter what they will produce it will be consumed since we trust those guys and because my neighbor bought the game and I want it too. 

Well i don't think so at all that it's the least of our worries. It's unnecessary trend IMO. Consumers don't really get much from them being this or that either way..and as for devs it's more about the marketing rather than anything else. 

Other bad trends are probably casual gaming and devs pandering all the none hardcore players but that is one boring topic which isn't needed to talked about here since that's not what this current thread is about. *



Jane Crocker said:


> Imo Sonic didn't become shit until Unleashed was created, and it never recovered from that. I don't mind cartoony Sonic, anime Sonic, or edgy Sonic; it's the hedgehog engine and the completely uninspired plots and designs plaguing the series. Consistency needs to be a thing.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the subject of cursing though so I'll leave it at that.



*So we can pretend it died in the 90's with the good nostalgic days?

Oh yes back on topic. Your thoughts? 
*


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## Lulu (Oct 15, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I dunno man Luigi's eyebrows sure look mean.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Dark&edgy version: Luigi goes rogue & forms an alliance with bowser to bring down mario. Mario is revealed to be a jerk ass hero who all the while has been saving the princess but unfaithful to her & is a bully. The game then veers into gray morality territory. Yes & all conversations are now containing cussing & offensive words


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## Shock Therapy (Oct 15, 2013)

swearing does nothing for me. if the game is good, it'll be good whether or not there's swearing. last of us and beyond two souls for example.


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## Hunted by sister (Oct 15, 2013)

ice77 said:


> If we are talking about giving characters depth or something along those lines swearing is still not needed. Give them good background story, some cool dialogue and let him bounce it off with other characters and I will be more than happy.


Frankly, you're very, VERY wrong. Honestly, this is borderline stupid. Swear words are a part of the vocabulary, whenever you like it or not. Spec Ops the Line without cursing would be incredibly artifical. Removing swear words would actually make the game worse from *storyline* and *character developement* standpoint.

And sometimes, cursing just fits. Sometimes it doesn't. "Dude" is not a curse word, but you wouldn't address the pope with "dude", would you? It's the same principle.

PS: I don't have a PS3 at the moment. I'll get DMC4 and DMC2013 (which I both like, watched reviews of both) on Steam.

//HbS


----------



## bbq sauce (Oct 15, 2013)

Look, I don't mind exploding brains and guts everywhere I turn..

But the bad man said "poopy" and that's NOT ok with me.

I want my money back.


----------



## ice77 (Oct 15, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> Frankly, you're very, VERY wrong. Honestly, this is borderline stupid. Swear words are a part of the vocabulary, whenever you like it or not. Spec Ops the Line without cursing would be incredibly artifical. Removing swear words would actually make the game worse from *storyline* and *character developement* standpoint.
> 
> And sometimes, cursing just fits. Sometimes it doesn't. "Dude" is not a curse word, but you wouldn't address the pope with "dude", would you? It's the same principle.
> 
> ...



*Well that is your opinion and no in my mind and things I see I'm not wrong at all. Games work without excessive cussing and I seen it and some comedic value can be gained with it in some games but for me it's still not needed. 

Maybe I have different tastes from you and I don't necessary believe it's a bad thing that I care neither that I rather have a clean duologue. Stupid for some folks is smart for others.

Now once again I ain't I can't argue spec ops. Take another game as an example which we both played. 

Cursing sometimes fits and sometimes doesn't. Not arguing there. Execution is the key. None the less I'm talking more when about when it doesn't while you are talking about when it does. 

Yeah man go get them games. Finish both 4th and the new one and we'll talk more about this.*



bbq sauce said:


> Look, I don't mind exploding brains and guts everywhere I turn..
> 
> But the bad man said "poopy" and that's NOT ok with me.
> 
> I want my money back.



*Fun...*


----------



## crazymtf (Oct 15, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> I heard DMC4 and DMC 2013 are worth playing. Both seem to be great spectacle fighters, and I don't give a darn about Dante being differnet in DMC 2013, which seems to be the main and only complaint I've heard about it. Besides minor stuff I don't care about either.
> 
> //HbS



DMC4 was okay. DMC2013 was a good surprise with a much better story than previous installments and a fun game. Enjoy it. Cursing wasn't overabundance. Japanonlyppl cry about it but honestly, any gamer I've met, that plays more than just DMC/JRPG enjoyed the game a lot.


----------



## bigduo209 (Oct 15, 2013)

Jane Crocker said:


> Imo Sonic didn't become shit until Unleashed was created, and it never recovered from that. I don't mind cartoony Sonic, anime Sonic, or edgy Sonic; it's the hedgehog engine and the completely uninspired plots and designs plaguing the series. Consistency needs to be a thing.




Whether you're gonna get a Wii U or not, this Sonic game is going to best all the other 3D attempts.

[YOUTUBE]PXdRkUdIpQw[/YOUTUBE]




bbq sauce said:


> Look, I don't mind exploding brains and guts everywhere I turn..
> 
> But the bad man said "poopy" and that's NOT ok with me.
> 
> I want my money back.


But the level of violence, language, and sexual content doesn't have to be the same.

No one is arguing that bad language in games should be wiped completely, but that excessive amounts of it doesn't belong in every game. This goes specifically for when the tone and context of said game doesn't warrant it.

Fun and crazy B-movie plots are fine, but other games where the creators say they're trying to create or convey something meaningful? Yeah... there's no reasonable excuse or insight to cover up that mistake.


----------



## Buskuv (Oct 15, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> DMC4 was okay. *DMC2013* was a good surprise with a much better story than previous installments and a fun game. Enjoy it. Cursing wasn't overabundance. Japanonlyppl cry about it but honestly, any gamer I've met, that plays more than just DMC/JRPG enjoyed the game a lot.



Nice condescension.

It was a nice action game, far removed the bile it was made out to be by butthurt DmC fans, but I'd rather have a simple, silly story that does what it aims to do than a 'serious' story that fails on virtually every level of pathos and ethos.  The story was pretty bad.

---

As for the OP, I think what you're talking about is endemic to simple bad writing, rather than just those naughty swears.  When we have games that aim for a more... for the lack of a better term, sophisticated type of story, vulgarities are almost a necessity.  They permeate our language; they permeate all languages.  

Social mores are explored in videogames all the type, so without being able to explore our language-based ones, without the ability to say cunt, fuck and shit, it doesn't always work.


----------



## ice77 (Oct 15, 2013)

*Exactly big, You get me bro. Even though many of those games are M rated and you should know what that means cussing, sexual content and even violence can and is portrayed differently from game to game.

Spicing more with the above doesn't necessarily make a game more enjoyable. At times it feels it might just be there for the shock factor. 

Other times it can be done to make the game more relatable to the real world so it all depends on the game we are talking about. People who can relate to a lot of cussing might have not problems or even care. Others who can scratch the surface do... it's in the eye of the beholder. *


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## crazymtf (Oct 15, 2013)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> Nice condescension.
> 
> It was a nice action game, far removed the bile it was made out to be by butthurt DmC fans, but I'd rather have a simple, silly story that does what it aims to do than a 'serious' story that fails on virtually every level of pathos and ethos.  The story was pretty bad.
> 
> ...



Story was fine. Better than what the series presented before and a step above 80% of action games. So meh.


----------



## Buskuv (Oct 15, 2013)

OK.  

Agree to disagree.  

I did enjoy NT's (well, portions of it) aesthetics.  I just kept laughing at all the wrong parts in the story, and groaning at the 'jokes.'  That, to me, is never a good sign.


----------



## ice77 (Oct 15, 2013)

*Background story was still better than let's say DMC1. Was far better done than just having a player read some stuff about Sparda in the beginning of the game. They gave depth to the characters which this franchise lacked IMO. 

Wrong parts? Which wrong parts are you referring to here? *


----------



## Buskuv (Oct 15, 2013)

I literally LOL'd when Virgil kills Lilith and her child.  I know that they're both supposed to be callous (though it far from paints Dante as a genuinely sympathetic character), but it was just a hilariously botched scene for me.  Not because of what it was, but because I can imagine the writers from NT thinking how cool it sounded.

NT can pretend that it was all satire, but we know.

Again, I don't HATE the game, but I certainly will never understand how the story, writing or characterization is good by any stretch of the imagination, save by the incredibly poor litmus test games have set forth thus far.


----------



## ice77 (Oct 15, 2013)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> I literally LOL'd when Virgil kills Lilith and her child.  I know that they're both supposed to be callous (though it far from paints Dante as a genuinely sympathetic character), but it was just a hilariously botched scene for me.  Not because of what it was, but because I can imagine the writers from NT thinking how cool it sounded.
> 
> NT can pretend that it was all satire, but we know.
> 
> Again, I don't HATE the game, but I certainly will never understand how the story, writing or characterization is good by any stretch of the imagination, save by the incredibly poor litmus test games have set forth thus far.




*Spoiler*: __ 



*In retrospect he was eliminating the competition. Can't see how it would be something he would not do since he had the perfect chance. It also made Virgil look like a cold hearted bastard which later made sense when he turned on Kat and Dante in order to rule the world himself. Slow turn to the bad guy worked IMO.

Besides this is not Shakespeare here. If wanted just about any game can be dissected and accused of bad writing. All we need to know is they tried and had more success in that department than the other games.*




*P.S who is the femme fatale in your sig anyways? *


----------



## Mider T (Oct 15, 2013)

I thought this was going to be about online gamers.


----------



## crazymtf (Oct 15, 2013)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> I literally LOL'd when Virgil kills Lilith and her child.  I know that they're both supposed to be callous (though it far from paints Dante as a genuinely sympathetic character), but it was just a hilariously botched scene for me.  Not because of what it was, but because I can imagine the writers from NT thinking how cool it sounded.
> 
> NT can pretend that it was all satire, but we know.
> 
> Again, I don't HATE the game, but I certainly will never understand how the story, writing or characterization is good by any stretch of the imagination, save by the incredibly poor litmus test games have set forth thus far.



I loved that part. Dante's reaction was perfect. 

Anyway, we will agree to disagree


----------



## Saru (Oct 15, 2013)

ice77 said:


> I already explained my standpoint on cussing in gaming so any further explanation on that is not needed.
> 
> So what are you saying exactly? Swearing became really cool sometime 2005 in gaming and we just got along on this one big ride of fun? Or it simply became the norm to make these games which follow each others lead into swear zone?



well without so much looking at the history and development of the trend itself, and looking more towards its current status and its future, I think it will inevitably linger due to the success that has resulted from such a general approach to game development. 

but to answer your question about how things got this way, I think apathy and the absence of a large scale urge to do anything about the trend have both been contributing factors. like you said, people are going to gobble all of this stuff anyway. 



> Anyways as I said yes I described the gang culture and there are no problems with that. I'm saying that other devs should be able to make their own decisions about the norms of their current game. It's not written in stone anywhere that you need to follow some made up norm that some game set at some point to make you game a success..just saying.



it's not written in stone, but it has precedent, and that's all that the devs need to keep doing what they're doing. and I mean, it's difficult to argue with numbers and data. why fiddle with a formula that consistently produces good results? as I said, I'm really rather indifferent to the usage of profanity. 

so it seems like you are for more diversity/uniqueness in games and turning away from the trend of casual gaming. or am I reading you wrong?



> Well i don't think so at all that it's the least of our worries. It's unnecessary trend IMO. Consumers don't really get much from them being this or that either way..and as for devs it's more about the marketing rather than anything else.
> 
> Other bad trends are probably casual gaming and devs pandering all the none hardcore players but that is one boring topic which isn't needed to talked about here since that's not what this current thread is about.



well, I was tapering that bit off with a more moralistic discussion. but ain't nobody got time for that and I guess this is not the thread for it.


----------



## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 15, 2013)

Mider T said:


> I thought this was going to be about online gamers.



If only.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 15, 2013)

The only way for DmC to be decent is to turn the dub to mexican with english subtitles,mexican mods and mexican music. Then pretend it's a mexican soap Opera.


ice77 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Vorgil didn't turn on anyone, Donte directly opposed him.
He even offered Donte to rule with him, so really it's the other way around.
Which makes it worse.

Not every game can claim they have good writing and turn out to have terrible writing. Like say Indigo prophecy or heavy rain. I'd say they fall in line with it.

Really I only would want to see a DmC 2 to watch the second glitch ridden, piece of garbage story train wreck with wubwub music going nonstop along with tons of fuck yous from Ninja Theory to old DMC fans.


----------



## sworder (Oct 15, 2013)

crazymtf said:


> Cursing wasn't overabundance.





Name one game with more cursing relative to the amount of dialog


----------



## Mider T (Oct 15, 2013)

Also "cussing" isn't a word, unless you're black.


----------



## ice77 (Oct 15, 2013)

Saru said:


> well without so much looking at the history and development of the trend itself, and looking more towards its current status and its future, I think it will inevitably linger due to the success that has resulted from such a general approach to game development.
> 
> but to answer your question about how things got this way, I think apathy and the absence of a large scale urge to do anything about the trend have both been contributing factors. like you said, people are going to gobble all of this stuff anyway.
> 
> ...



*I don't believe you should do that. One needs to know their gaming history(as any other history). They need to see the full picture and how it got to be how it is before they talk about present and the future. 

Also i don't agree on your first statement. I mean let's take this....Violence in video games. Has it become a success? Considering how the most popular video games are bathing in blood and controversy of that nature I would assume yes. It goes all the way back to the success that was Mortal Kombat back in early 90's. Hence why we got that rating system.

Now another issue is sex and sex as we know sell. Either it be on television, internet or simply due to the fact that we downloaded that latest hot coffe mod for San Andreas. It attracts and apparently it's all good for business. 

But this third one is actually bad language and that my friend from my point of you is not what's needed for a successful game. As I mentioned success for M Rated titles out there is mostly violence and some sexual content now and when......well besides actually a game needed to be good and all to start with.

It's more like an add on most of the times I seen. Sure it can be there to spice things up for you but it doesn't have to and that's when I start to ask the hard questions where and when it should.

Success in gaming can't be credited to either swearing or not swearing. There is no data on that one as far as I can see. 

Sure I like unique games at times. Games that are different from the rest, games that offer something unique but at times I just want to have fun playing games just because it's fun and engaging but that has hardly anything to do with this discussion.

Swearing in gaming doesn't make them unique for me if that is what you are referring. 

As for your last statement I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here with moralistic. Care to elaborate more on that? 
*


8-Peacock-8 said:


> If only.



*Well if you guys want that kind of discussion make your own thread about it. I won't do it since I know exactly what will be said and we all heard it before. 

Besides I don't do that much online gaming so it's not like it has been an issue for me.
*


Unlosing Ranger said:


> Vorgil didn't turn on anyone, Donte directly opposed him.
> He even offered Donte to rule with him, so really it's the other way around.
> Which makes it worse.
> 
> ...



*Hmm, hmm it's Virgil and Dante and not Vorgil and Donte unless you where mocking them of course.

Also you should use spoiler tags since there are alot of folks who haven't played these games yet.*


*Spoiler*: __ 



*LOL no it was Virgil who decided to take the role of Mundus as the new ruler of earth which Dante had no choice but to oppose. Why are you defending a villain anyways? Are you huge fan of Virgil or what?*




*Some would say that no game has any good writing but once again it depends what you think good writing is...also what's good writing for videos games and the game in question. 

For me DMC had solid writing and it was an improvement from previous games. Could it been better? Well it always can but I enjoyed what I got and I could have got far less. I appreciate the efforts they put in character backgrounds.

Are there games with far better writing? Considering how huge gaming industry is it would be safe to assume yes. There is always a chance that one might prefer one game writing over the over...and they should feel free to do so. 

Now onto Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain. Beaten both of these games and one game is not the other one in forms of writing. 

Indigo Prophecy had decent writing in the beginning but it turned really bad about half way through the game. It just became far over the top and made less and less sense as the game progress. Was not something that you think you saw at the start and I believe game developers realized that issue. 

So now we go to it spiritual successor Heavy Rain. This game had solid writing all the way through IMO...although sure as I said we could dissect and it was just a horrible experience but I must say it was huge improvement over the last one and I appreciated the efforts they put in with characterizations for each character. You could actually relate to some of the characters... Max Payne was only other game/s that I could say the same. Can it improve for the next one? Sure it can but it's all about learning from your previous experiences.

As for that last statement I'm not really sure what you where getting at here. You like DMC 2 and want a glitch ridden?...and the last part I didn't really get. *



Mider T said:


> Also "cussing" isn't a word, unless you're black.



*And "cursing" is right?*


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 15, 2013)

ice77 said:


> *I don't believe you should do that. One needs to know their gaming history(as any other history). They need to see the full picture and how it got to be how it is before they talk about present and the future.
> 
> Also i don't agree on your first statement. I mean let's take this....Violence in video games. Has it become a success? Considering how the most popular video games bathing in blood and controversy of that nature I would assume yes. It goes all the way back to the success that was Mortal Kombat back in early 90's. Hence why we got that rating system.
> 
> ...


Why oppose something that is objectively not a bad thing?
Or oppose when you really don't care.
You haven't seen the DmC threads that's for sure


----------



## Bioness (Oct 15, 2013)

Mider T said:


> Also "cussing" isn't a word, unless you're black.



Even if you're black using "cussing" in a sentence like that is just wrong.

Anyway as for the OP, I have no problem with swearing as long as it isn't for the sake of it and it fits. What I have a problem with is censorship of said wearing. Take the remake of Conker's Bad Fur Day, it was censored in a ridiculous fashion and caused people to hate it, even with the updated graphics.

[YOUTUBE]b3Dtg6S6tCA[/YOUTUBE]

Ruined a great song.

Now this, this is a good song.

[YOUTUBE]2NDPT0Ph5rA[/YOUTUBE]

So fuck censorship, but also fuck unneeded swearing for the sake of swearing.


----------



## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Why oppose something that is objectively not a bad thing?
> Or oppose when you really don't care.
> You haven't seen the DmC threads that's for sure



*Why oppose? Can't see why not. It's better than to stay silent and get along for the ride with whatever without questioning...it's better than being a drone IMHO.

Objectively not a bad thing? Exactly objectively and since I object I don't see how it's that a good thing alot of the times. But objectively many can still disagree and have good reasons(in their minds) doing so.

Oppose when I really don't care? Well I do care and hence why I oppose.

DMC threads? Nope I really haven't but I heard all about the criticism even before that game was released. Besides I just recently got around finishing that game myself so that's not surprising. 

Care to show some if we have that many in this section? 
*


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 16, 2013)

ice77 said:


> *Why oppose? Can't see why not. It's better than to stay silent and get along for the ride with whatever without questioning...it's better than being a drone IMHO.
> 
> Objectively not a bad thing? Exactly objectively and since I object I don't see how it's that a good thing alot of the times. But objectively many can still disagree and have good reasons(in their minds) doing so.
> 
> ...


start here


----------



## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> start here



*So it's about rebooted Dante's character? Or how the game will suck? 

What's your point here?*


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 16, 2013)

If ya read it you'd know


----------



## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> If ya read it you'd know



*Read some of it but I could hardly see or hear anything that I haven't heard before. 6 threads(and one of them you just revived) is a lot but once again controversy usually creates discussions. 

Now could you please get to the point since I'm definitely not reading through that many pages of the things I'm already aware of. 

People are predictable either way. *


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 16, 2013)

ice77 said:


> *Read some of it but I could hardly see or hear anything that I haven't heard before. 6 threads(and one of them you just revived) is a lot but once again controversy usually creates discussions.
> 
> Now could you please get to the point since I'm definitely not reading through that many pages of the things I'm already aware of.
> 
> People are predictable either way. *



You'd still have to read a threads worth of posts along with 3-4 hours worth of video even summed up. 
That how badly it got the shit beat out of it.
But if you want all of it summed up in two words?

Squirrel jizz.


----------



## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You'd still have to read a threads worth of posts along with 3-4 hours worth of video even summed up.
> That how badly it got the shit beat out of it.
> But if you want all of it summed up in two words?
> 
> Squirrel jizz.



*I could but I don't want to and if we are talking about bigger picture I gave DMC just as one example of many games which used cursing excessively. 

So what do those threads really have to do with this topic we are having now? 

This is really not about how bad/good that game was but the language used in that and many more games. So your thoughts on that now that we are getting back on topic. *


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 16, 2013)

ice77 said:


> *I could but I don't want to and if we are talking about bigger picture I gave DMC just as one example of many games which used cursing excessively.
> 
> So what do those threads really have to do with this topic we are having now?
> 
> This is really not about how bad/good that game was but the language used in that and many more games. So your thoughts on that now that we are getting back on topic. *



I would if the topic had any worth. Which it doesn't.
Google P&T Bullshit! 210 - Profanity


----------



## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

*No I won't Google that since there is no reason to. 

If it didn't have any worth you wouldn't be hanging around here stating your opnion on numerous occasions so i don't see any point in you saying that.

Your actions speak a different language. *


----------



## Naruto (Oct 16, 2013)

It's not an issue as long as it makes sense.

Some degree of swearing is part of everyday conversations and consequently, part of our culture. It can contribute to adding legitimacy to dialogue. Of course, like so many other things, it can also be grossly misused.

Largely unrelated, but interesting:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ0Ny6WhfLU[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Hunted by sister (Oct 16, 2013)

ice77 said:


> Well that is your opinion and no in my mind and things I see I'm not wrong at all.


Of course not, it wouldn't be really an opinion if you weren't sure you're right. It'd be an option.


ice77 said:


> Games work without excessive cussing and I seen it and some comedic value can be gained with it in some games but for me it's still not needed.
> 
> Maybe I have different tastes from you and I don't necessary believe it's a bad thing that I care neither that I rather have a clean duologue. Stupid for some folks is smart for others.
> 
> Now once again I ain't I can't argue spec ops. Take another game as an example which we both played.


GTA. Saint's Row. Dead Space. Just about any horror-gore game with dialogue and vocable characters or RPG featuring a wide array of archetypes. Any game featuring criminals, anarchists, society misfits, angry people, high value stakes and mental stress would feel artifical without cursing (when appropriate). 

In Dead Space 2, the line "FUCK YOU AND FUCK YOUR MARKER" was basicly one of the best lines of that winter, when we take into account the storyline and build-up.


ice77 said:


> Cursing sometimes fits and sometimes doesn't. Not arguing there. Execution is the key. None the less I'm talking more when about when it doesn't while you are talking about when it does.


So basicly we're talking about bad writing, and not curse words. You should've made that clear earlier, instead of focusing on a single side of bad writing.

Bad writing obviously makes the game worse, no discussion here.

//HbS


----------



## Byrd (Oct 16, 2013)

Never had a problem with swearing in gaming....

It basically all depends on the writing and handling of the characters


----------



## crazymtf (Oct 16, 2013)

sworder said:


> Name one game with more cursing relative to the amount of dialog



GTA3...Vice...SA...4...5(Especially)...Saints Row1...2..3...4....Scarface...Gears 1.......by far...don't even try to play this game boy


----------



## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Naruto said:


> It's not an issue as long as it makes sense.
> 
> Some degree of swearing is part of everyday conversations and consequently, part of our culture. It can contribute to adding legitimacy to dialogue. Of course, like so many other things, it can also be grossly misused.
> 
> ...



I really failed to see any point to what he said in that video. 

For example alien wouldn't understand out language to begin with. We can't really know what aliens would think. Since we really don't understand..yet how they think..but that's another issue. 



Hunted by sister said:


> Of course not, it wouldn't be really an opinion if you weren't sure you're right. It'd be an option.
> 
> GTA. Saint's Row. Dead Space. Just about any horror-gore game with dialogue and vocable characters or RPG featuring a wide array of archetypes. Any game featuring criminals, anarchists, society misfits, angry people, high value stakes and mental stress would feel artificial without cursing (when appropriate).
> 
> ...



*An option to be wrong or an option thinking/not thinking like the masses? 

GTA? Depends on what gta since I have pointed out already a few times that cuss free gta works just as much as cuss friendly. 

Saints Row? Since it is basically originally a clone of gta san andreas yes cussing is almost a given and most of the time it works even if at times they overdo it..but that's the point also. They push it with this game and you know before hand what you will get. Didn't see much problem since devs still no it's more about having fun rather than listening much.... in the end they want to be bad asses and in some cases it might even be funny....name of the game accepted and understood.

Dead Space 2. TBH I only played a bit of it so I'm not really sure I can answer that one very well. But horror games in the past (and I played everything from RE(all canon ones), Silent Hill(original ones), Condemned Criminal Origins and so many more and to what I seen it's more about them actually being scary which one would assume they should be than them cussing all the time.

Bad writing? Nah I dunno if that's the case at all. Just because they have swearing does not make it bad writing to me. Matter of fact it can be really good(IMO). It's them trying to spice things up too much as pointed out. But you can see that way also..I dig. 

Made what clear? Well as you see I'm trying here but a lot of the time people don't even care to think before they respond. It takes time to explain what I mean and IMO you should take time with these issues. 

You say no discussion but IMO we are having a decent one right now. 
*


----------



## Hunted by sister (Oct 16, 2013)

ice77 said:


> Bad writing? Nah I dunno if that's the case at all. Just because they have swearing does not make it bad writing to me. Matter of fact it can be really good(IMO). It's them trying to spice things up too much as pointed out. But you can see that way also..I dig.
> 
> Made what clear? Well as you see I'm trying here but a lot of the time people don't even care to think before they respond. It takes time to explain what I mean and IMO you should take time with these issues.


From what I understood, at the beginning of the thread you adressed all of cursing in games as unnecessary and forced. But later down the line you agreed with me that cursing is fine when it fits the theme/scene/when it's appropriate. That means you're opposed to cursing when it's out of place, and that means the issue is bad dialogue writing, not cursing itself, though you're addressing just that one segment of bad writing, for whatever reason.

Curse words are just words. Lousy writing includes all words, not just curses, you don't imagine Commander Shepard speak dude-bro speech, right? Or you won't expect Sarevok to use Star Trek-ish technical babble. You wouldn't expect Tiny Tina to speak like a distinguished lady, or Batman to talk like Guy Gardner. 

It's all down to writing, not words themselves. Words are tools, and tool are neutral. It's up to us how we use them. Every case has to be judged separately, we can't generalise like you did in the OP.


ice77 said:


> You say no discussion but IMO we are having a decent one right now.


What I meant about discussing if bad writing is bad for games is pointless, since it's obvious.

//HbS


----------



## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Hunted by sister said:


> From what I understood, at the beginning of the thread you addressed all of cursing in games as unnecessary and forced. But later down the line you agreed with me that cursing is fine when it fits the theme/scene/when it's appropriate. That means you're opposed to cursing when it's out of place, and that means the issue is bad dialogue writing, not cursing itself, though you're addressing just that one segment of bad writing, for whatever reason.
> 
> Curse words are just words. Lousy writing includes all words, not just curses, you don't imagine Commander Shepard speak dude-bro speech, right? Or you won't expect Sarevok to use Star Trek-ish technical babble. You wouldn't expect Tiny Tina to speak like a distinguished lady, or Batman to talk like Guy Gardner.
> 
> ...



*No that's not what happened. Re-read the OP. I also addressed the issue that at times it works but often to me it was unnecessary edge that they implemented on enjoyable games which I played. 

Also no the context of dialogue usually is just fine... And IMO it would work without the cursing just as fine. Bad writing for me is not the same as putting swears in the duologue. Bad dialogue is bad simply if it's usually lazy and has no effort whatsoever put in it. Putting swears in it doesn't automatically make it bad for me. 

I look at it as an ad odd. An edge they are willing to put into dialogue. Maybe I just don't think the way people do here but I might look at it at a different perspective..who knows.

Yes curse words are words but they are cursed for a reason. When I think about them I think about it's either to be implemented as a method of expression frustration or they can also be implemented as a bad/good(depending how you look at it) habit of a certain character in the game.

Let's take Bayonetta as an example here. She is this femme fatale(you know if you played it) who doesn't excessively cuss all the chance she gets. She is a femme fatale who plays it sexy (LOL) most of the game. There are only a very few very well placed "fucks" in her dialogue. IMO it makes me want to hear what she has to say without devs downgrading her character with the unnecessity...so now we move on onto her sidekick which we meet at the start of the game. We can say "he swears like a friend" (with lack of a better definition LOL). Does he do that because he's scared or does he do it because it's a habit? I would assume the later. 

So could this game be just as good without those add ons? Absolutely IMO but some would say ganstahs need to swear to make it offentic...as I said it's in the eye of the beholder. 

Do I think he has bad diologue because he does do it? No but the game would smell just as nice for me if he didn't. It has not as much to do with devs making a bad dialogue for that character rather than giving him this "mobster edge" which we have seen in movies and other games...Joe Pesci kinda guy. Also often than not it's hard to imagine anything else besides what we are given and except while we play without thinking....but I'm trying to change that. What if I start thinking after I played those games..what will I see in retrospect.... well to sum it up these sort of threads pop up in my head and I make them. I put deep thoughts into them before I make them but that doesn't mean it's always easy to get the message across to others. 

Also you say lousy writing includes all words..but so does (often than not) what I consider good writing. There is a second side to every coin out there. 

I can't expect?....Well I can since I been around as far as I can remember. Not just expect but see different solutions to every dialogue encounter you can imagine...it's one of those props for being half old school gamer like myself.

Commander Shepard? Not a fan of the series so I can't judge. Same goes for for this star trek thing. Tiny Tina? No idea who that is.Gardner? Who is this guy? I know batman though and wondering what you are referring to here. Be sure to elaborate on that one. 

You mean it's up to devs how they use them and up to us how we interpret them right?

No discussing is not bad at all...there is a good reason to do it. Since we both might want to see what's on the other side of an argument..and at points we might start looking at things from a different angle in the future....as long as it doesn't turn out into an immature flamewar with no discussion value I'm all up for it. 

Also magic happens when we elaborate for example why bad writing is bad..or why at times cussing is unnecessary. Saying this thing is bad or this thing is good is just following the latest popular trends without the need to think and that my friend what's truly bad and very sad.
*


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## Patchouli (Oct 16, 2013)

> So to sum it up...I don't mind a violent video and I don't mind them cussing(if it is done the right way and not over the top) but it does disturbs me that this gen just has this ich to put a norm on bad language without it being necessity. It doesn't improve my gaming experience and at times it detracts.
> 
> Now do you agree, disagree or you do you simply not care? In any case do you believe that game developers should use moderation or simply should do whatever the hell they think the consumers want to see and hear? Do take your time to read and think about before you respond. Don't do it on instinct



I think game devs should do whatever they want. Their product will find its market, and push away people that disagree or are uninterested in it. Bad sales figures have a way of sorting out things that are more controversial from the industry. 

As for how I feel about swearing in games, I've absolutely nothing against it. They're just words.


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## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> I think game devs should do whatever they want. Their product will find its market, and push away people that disagree or are uninterested in it. Bad sales figures have a way of sorting out things that are more controversial from the industry.
> 
> As for how I feel about swearing in games, I've absolutely nothing against it. They're just words.



*All in the name of creativity? 

Also isn't controversy a good thing? I mean just like at so many games (*cough* gta* cough) which made even more popular thanks to controversy. 

Often sales don't do any game justice. I mean just look at how many games have been overlooked thanks to bad sales(games that where critically acclaimed). 

Popular games just become bullies eventually who push lesser games out of the market..and bullies are bad mmkay.

*


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## Patchouli (Oct 16, 2013)

ice77 said:


> *All in the name of creativity?
> 
> *



Always in the name of creativity. Artists should be free to create anything they'd like without worry that a government will ban or censor their work. Hell, even consumers shouldn't be able to ban or censor a game. They have the right to not buy it if they find something in it offensive. I believe voting with your wallet is the best way to sort out games that cross too many lines.

Swearing hardly crosses lines for most people. I'm just saying all this since I don't believe anything in any form of art should be censored. Including minor things like swearing. 



> Also isn't controversy a good thing? I mean just like at so many games (*cough* gta* cough) which made even more popular thanks to controversy.



Controversy can be a very powerful marketing tool, but it's not a foolproof way to make sales. You need a solid game to back it up, and GTA has that.



> Often sales don't do any game justice. I mean just look at how many games have been overlooked thanks to bad sales(games that where critically acclaimed).



I mean games that are boycotted specifically because of controversy surrounding it, hurting the sales to a point where it actually makes publishers take notice. Doesn't always play out like that, but if a game is actually disgusting enough that the general public doesn't want it, then this works. 



> Popular games just become bullies eventually who push lesser games out of the market..and bullies are bad mmkay.



That's just how things work, regardless of whether a game is controversial or not.


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## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Always in the name of creativity. Artists should be free to create anything they'd like without worry that a government will ban or censor their work. Hell, even consumers shouldn't be able to ban or censor a game. They have the right to not buy it if they find something in it offensive. I believe voting with your wallet is the best way to sort out games that cross too many lines.
> 
> Swearing hardly crosses lines for most people. I'm just saying all this since I don't believe anything in any form of art should be censored. Including minor things like swearing.
> 
> ...



*Wasn't talking about the government or the censorship. But if we are talking about freedom of speech standpoint you are right on the spot. Besides there is a reason why we have those game ratings that I mentioned a few times. 

As far as consumers go we can't ban the games. We can just complain about them later lol. Well either that or not play them at all if we think subject matter doesn't suit our tastes.

Also mindless drone gaming masses don't really care about subject matter. It's about picking up that latest popular game that everyone else is talking about without regard of quality nor subject matter. Marketing is a powerful tool which works and is a success. 

But all corporate suits see is numbers and that's the only language they speak so from their perspective games which sell the most are the best games...wouldn't be logical if it was otherwise. 

Cross to many lines? Haven't most lines been crossed already in tv and gaming already? 

Exactly swearing doesn't cross lines for them but at times it does for me..here is the difference. People are entitled to think what they want about the games they play. Also if you read some of my post I'm talking more about necessity and moderation and of course consideration from case to case game to game and franchise to franchise.

No one is saying anything about censorship and that we should censor anything but there are other concerns....what's best for the game and what norms are simply there because they can be and not because they can be for the edge of things. 

Ah but you also need marketing. Best way to get it is being controversial. Sure better controversial than not noticed at all. I mean would you rather pick up a controversial game which you heard about or a game which you never heard about and have to guess if it will be enjoyable? People tend to take the familiar choice. 

Disgusting games? Did you had any in mind here? Care to give examples? *


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 16, 2013)

The blue text is annoying as fuck


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## Patchouli (Oct 16, 2013)

ice77 said:


> Wasn't talking about the government or the censorship. But if we are talking about freedom of speech standpoint you are right on the spot. Besides there is a reason why we have those game ratings that I mentioned a few times.



Was just giving my general view of the whole issue of censorship. Seemed related enough since you were asking whether devs should use moderation, which to me would be a form of censorship. While swearing can get excessive, there should be nothing to get in the way of that.



> As far as consumers go we can't ban the games. We can just complain about them later lol. Well either that or not play them at all if we think subject matter doesn't suit our tastes.



Depends on the country you're from, but consumers do have the ability to ban products. A kneejerk reaction to something is often enough to make governments create boards that moderate which games are considered acceptable or not.



> Also mindless drone gaming masses don't really care about subject matter. It's about picking up that latest popular game that everyone else is talking about without regard of quality nor subject matter. Marketing is a powerful tool which works and is a success.



I'd disagree with that. The internet has changed a lot about gaming. It's very easy to just go to google and find out everything about a game before buying it. And if Reddit and /v/ are anything to go by, people lose their shit and refuse to buy things over the smallest things. 



> But all corporate suits see is numbers and that's the only language they speak so from their perspective games which sell the most are the best games...wouldn't be logical if it was otherwise.



I mean, it is a bit of a generalization. Some corporate suits are looking out for gamers. 

But in general, that is true. Not sure how it pertains though. Explain. 

If you mean to say that businessmen are responsible for the rise of swearing in games, I don't think that's the case. Can attribute it more to console makers having looser restrictions on what they'll allow devs to make. That coupled with a whole generation of gamers growing up, and being targeted by focus groups who want to make their games "edgy" for the aging group.



> Cross to many lines? Haven't most lines been crossed already in tv and gaming already?



Not even close. 



> Exactly swearing doesn't cross lines for them but at times it does for me..here is the difference. People are entitled to think what they want about the games they play. Also if you read some of my post I'm talking more about necessity and moderation and of course consideration from case to case game to game and franchise to franchise.



And that's perfectly fair, you have every right to be offended by swearing. But I disagree that any moderation needs to be done. Again, to me that is censorship.

But on the topic of what'd be appropriate for specific games, that's up to the developers who made the world.



> No one is saying anything about censorship and that we should censor anything but there are other concerns....what's best for the game and what norms are simply there because they can be and not because they can be for the edge of things.



That decision is up to the creator. It's our job to buy games that appeal to us. :33



> Ah but you also need marketing. Best way to get it is being controversial. Sure better controversial than not noticed at all. I mean would you rather pick up a controversial game which you heard about or a game which you never heard about and have to guess if it will be enjoyable? People tend to take the familiar choice.



Not the best way by far, not for everything. That glove fits very well on GTA though, not so much on something like Mario. 

Again, with the internet around, it's very easy for people to find out about new games. Even indie games that have practically no marketing budget can be discovered and do well nowadays. 



> Disgusting games? Did you had any in mind here? Care to give examples?







Rapelay, and also Custer's Revenge if we want to go old school.

Those are a few examples.


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## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The blue text is annoying as fuck



*Yeah I heard alot of that talk before. So what should we do about that? *



Patchouli said:


> Was just giving my general view of the whole issue of censorship. Seemed related enough since you were asking whether devs should use moderation, which to me would be a form of censorship. While swearing can get excessive, there should be nothing to get in the way of that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*The devs should do what's best for the games and their characters and than there is the issue to what I prefer which I talked about a lot recently..but what I prefer doesn't necessarily mean what other people prefer. 

Speaking on the issue here. What do you think about pg games like marios, sonics, zeldas and so on and forth? Should they use self moderation or should they feel free to include cussing and bad language for those characters if they want to give them an unexpected edge? I mean freedom of speech should allow that right? 

Consumers still don't have the right to ban products...governments do. If some people out there would get their way you would not see M Rated titles with blood, sex, drugs, bad language and gore at all. Sure if there is a public outcry politicians in order to get ahead into their political carer will use these cheap means to boost their popularity with certain groups. Doesn't mean that public banned them it just means that these people did it for their own ends.... but hey I can't vouch how it works in every country. 

So tell me where you from and how does it work where you live with these issues and what you have learned so far how it works overall. That I do want to hear. 

People refuse to buy over smallest shit? Do you mean quality wise or violence, bad language wise? Since we know that violence attracts an audience.

Directors might be looking out for gamers..well either that or looking out for the ability for them to be as creative as possible but the producers(corporate suits which I mentioned) jobs are to sell as many game copies as they possibly can. Is it in their job description to care if it's really a good game or not? I don't think so. Games just like movies and everything else you consume is all there to make them dough...but of course there are creative ways to get that dough...like making an enjoyable game for the masses.

Wait explain what exactly? 

So for aging group...what are we talking about here? Teens? 

I believe once you reach a certain age edgy you no longer find it that edgy nor that particularly special and matter of fact unneeded add on...but hey I'm 24 years old. That means old enough to be a cynic.

Those games you mentioned which where made to piss off certain audience sounds a lot like that time when this kid made a game about columbine school massacre after the massacre. Sounds like nothing more but cheap public stunts rather than real mainstream games. Anyone with half a braincell would not even take any of that seriously.

Also you say that we haven't pushed the bounderies enough? I dunno if you are serious or joking game but if we consider that on our television sets we seen people get racially discriminated, raped, peed on, taken massive amounts of drugs and happily lived to tell the tale of the awesome rush, tortured, slashed to ribbons in most creative ways I can't see how that would be anywhere as true...

So I have to say you have some high standards. Question is according to you what else can they possibly do that hasn't been done on tv or be easily found on the net? Where do these boundaries lie inside you? What should they do according to you to keep pushing them? 

*


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 16, 2013)

Not have blue text.


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## ice77 (Oct 16, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Not have blue text.



*Yes but why? Is there anymore reason besides you being annoyed by it?*


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## Lord Yu (Oct 16, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKUSSFzRZGY[/YOUTUBE]


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 16, 2013)

Not being able to read it without highlighting would be one.


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## Gaawa-chan (Oct 17, 2013)

*Shrugs* Imo swearing should only ever be used sparingly otherwise it loses its impact.  Compare Bayonetta to Lollipop Chainsaw.  Every single time someone swears in Bayonetta, it's memorable because it's done properly.  But they're dropping swear words every other sentence in Lollipop Chainsaw, to the point where the swear words might as well not be there.

And on that note.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNkMYx4lYaU[/YOUTUBE]


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## ice77 (Oct 17, 2013)

Lord Yu said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKUSSFzRZGY[/YOUTUBE]





*I dunno if that was funny or sad but they forgot to be creative with the overkill part. I lost interest about 10 seconds in. 

Also it's just sad that they wanted to make fun of sucha once great series with some cheap f bombing with no creativity. 

In the morning I need to wake up and forget many of them exist. It's a sacrifice I have to make. *


Unlosing Ranger said:


> Not being able to read it without highlighting would be one.



*Oh you must be using a dark background or something. Try using Uchiha Sasuke background and you will be just fine. Works well for me.*



Gaawa-chan said:


> *Shrugs* Imo swearing should only ever be used sparingly otherwise it loses its impact.  Compare Bayonetta to Lollipop Chainsaw.  Every single time someone swears in Bayonetta, it's memorable because it's done properly.  But they're dropping swear words every other sentence in Lollipop Chainsaw, to the point where the swear words might as well not be there.
> 
> And on that note.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNkMYx4lYaU[/YOUTUBE]



*Yup that's what I was talking about also...but I also said they have this mobster sidekick in the beginning that also drops swears to the point of overkill..... But he is not part of most of the game so it's hardly a problem. 
*


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## Saru (Oct 19, 2013)

sorry for the delayed reply. I got caught up in life and my post got wiped a couple of times due to my poor mobile device. 



ice77 said:


> I don't believe you should do that. One needs to know their gaming history(as any other history). They need to see the full picture and how it got to be how it is before they talk about present and the future.



but I don't think that's actually necessary here. the history of gaming entails a wide breadth of knowledge in other words, it's not that complicated. if looked at from an economic/business perspective, it would seem reasonable that devs would continue to do things the way they're being done currently. 



> Also i don't agree on your first statement. I mean let's take this....Violence in video games. Has it become a success? Considering how the most popular video games are bathing in blood and controversy of that nature I would assume yes. It goes all the way back to the success that was Mortal Kombat back in early 90's. Hence why we got that rating system.
> 
> Now another issue is sex and sex as we know sell. Either it be on television, internet or simply due to the fact that we downloaded that latest hot coffe mod for San Andreas. It attracts and apparently it's all good for business.
> 
> But this third one is actually bad language and that my friend from my point of you is not what's needed for a successful game. As I mentioned success for M Rated titles out there is mostly violence and some sexual content now and when......well besides actually a game needed to be good and all to start with.



I think that all three of those elements you mentioned each contribute to the atmosphere of the game, and are harder to separate. if one looks at this logically, it seems obvious that the more violence that there is in a game, the greater the likelihood of bad language being used. I think there's a direct relationship there.



> It's more like an add on most of the times I seen. Sure it can be there to spice things up for you but it doesn't have to and that's when I start to ask the hard questions where and when it should.



yeah, I get where you're coming from.



> Success in gaming can't be credited to either swearing or not swearing. There is no data on that one as far as I can see.



no, there isn't necessarily data on this. but obviously, the success of a game does not depend solely on the frequency of swearing. still, there's a link between swearing and violence and the type of atmosphere that both of those elements engender, and that's why I say that the use of swearing has lead to success. that statement wasn't meant to be taken at face value, I mean.



> Swearing in gaming doesn't make them unique for me if that is what you are referring.



not really, but you pretty much answered the question, thanks.



> As for your last statement I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here with moralistic. Care to elaborate more on that?



honestly, no. it would take a lot of time and effort on my part due to the depth of which I would likely aim to cover the topic, and I don't have a lot of time on my hands for that. 

and although it would be interesting to assess the negative impact of video games on society (and most notably youth), I'm sure that it would overwhelm the capacity of this topic.


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## Drunkenwhale (Oct 20, 2013)

Has not bothered me one bit.




Unlosing Ranger said:


> Not have blue text.





Not as bad as light purple or pink.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Drunkenwhale said:


> Not as bad as light purple or pink.



I think it's the brighter pink that's worse.


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## Drunkenwhale (Oct 21, 2013)

Like I said before, doesn't bother me one bit.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> I think it's the brighter pink that's worse.



You mean like this?

True. But when I visit message boards on my phone, purple tends to not do well with small text.

I don't understand why some people like to use colored text when half the time we're highlighting it to see what they say.

Some people on here annoy me with it.


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