# Strongest Bleach character Charlotte Cracker can beat?



## Pocalypse (Feb 1, 2017)

Let's give him 10 Biscuit puppets to start with


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## Keishin (Feb 1, 2017)

He had a pretty terrible skill set. I'm not sure if he can take Ulq down even if he was stronger.


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## Jag77 (Feb 1, 2017)

Didn't this guy stalmate G4 Luffy?


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## Blαck (Feb 1, 2017)

Jag77 said:


> Didn't this guy stalmate G4 Luffy?


yup, Id stop him around starrk or whoever is directly under him.


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## Xhominid (Feb 1, 2017)

Blαck said:


> yup, Id stop him around starrk or whoever is directly under him.



Barragan. Starrk is overkill and Barragan's ability is way too OP for the One Piece characters to overcome 1vs1


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## Blαck (Feb 1, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Barragan. Starrk is overkill and Barragan's ability is way too OP for the One Piece characters to overcome 1vs1



Only issue with starrk is those ghost wolves which should be able to do much to the cracker clone(what's the dc of wolves again? ) especially since he should be easily fast enough to dodge or get outta there.
But yeah Barragan is tricky, only really Law can deal with him.


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## Gomu (Feb 1, 2017)

You guys think that this guy, the person who Luffy was having problems in his G4 form can't beat Ulquiorra? The sheer physicality he has would be enough to pound characters like Ulquiorra to dust. Should be faster too. His Biscuits give him a very durable defense, since he is a Glass Cannon as shown by how he was defeated, but he's more than strong enough and fast enough to at least beat Ulquiorra and Barragan handily. Starrk might have the beam spam, but again this is a guy who was giving G4 Luffy a problem, and you know he's far more than just City Level, he's way above the casual 27 MT calc.


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## Blαck (Feb 1, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You guys think that this guy, the person who Luffy was having problems in his G4 form can't beat Ulquiorra? The sheer physicality he has would be enough to pound characters like Ulquiorra to dust. Should be faster too. His Biscuits give him a very durable defense, since he is a Glass Cannon as shown by how he was defeated, but he's more than strong enough and fast enough to at least beat Ulquiorra and Barragan handily. Starrk might have the beam spam, but again this is a guy who was giving G4 Luffy a problem, and you know he's far more than just City Level, he's way above the casual 27 MT calc.



Well, in base he could take Barry but once he transforms how is he gonna get through respira? Bread goes bad in like a month or something


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## Gomu (Feb 1, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Well, in base he could take Barry but once he transforms how is he gonna get through respira? Bread goes bad in like a month or something



He has the stamina to fight for 11 hours without rest, and has far better speed via scaling. He can make as many Biscuit Clones as he needs to continually wear him down. He doesn't even have to get close. A clone fought G4 Luffy and gave him trouble and he can make these clones for 11 hours straight.

All they need is a single sword swipe. Just one. He needs constant Respira.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> He has the stamina to fight for 11 hours without rest





Gomu said:


> He can make as many Biscuit Clones as he needs to continually wear him down.


Deathberry circa Fake Karakura Town arc could fight for two thousand.

A _nigh-powerless_ Uryu can go at it for over two days straight.

Eleven hours of fighting is not remotely impressive within the context of these characters; we're talking about an achievement that can be replicated by literal fodder.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Xhominid (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Deathberry circa Fake Karakura Town arc could fight for two thousand.
> 
> A _nigh-powerless_ Uryu can go at it for over two days straight.
> 
> Eleven hours of fighting is not remotely impressive within the context of these characters; we're talking about an achievement that can be replicated by literal fodder.



I forgot about Uryu fighting against his dad while powerless for two days straight. But yeah, Bleach characters have insane stamina and can fight for days easily. Cracker's stamina is jackshit compared to that.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> I forgot about Uryu fighting against his dad while powerless for two days straight. But yeah, Bleach characters have insane stamina and can fight for days easily. Cracker's stamina is jackshit compared to that.


Not that it really matters because Cracker still wins due to sheer attrition of his Biscuit powers (also the older bread gets, it actually gets harder and petrifies if we're going by logic of time, a biscuit literally turns into a rock-hard substance given enough time).

I don't remember that 2000 hour feat. Scans?

And the two days also, could have had breaks because unless they imply that they aren't humans anymore... (Especially since before all this shit about a different clan of Quincy, Uryu and his father were humans, meaning they'd have to have taken breaks, not the same for One Piece as the context of the world is different, such as Ace's mom holding him in for two years, full-on fights with two admirals taking 10 days, etc.)


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I don't remember that 2000 hour feat. Scans?


Ichigo and his dad spent almost three months in the Dangai, so that the former could obtain the Final Getsuga Tensho and fight Aizen. He spent those two thousand hours fighting his zanpakuto in jinzen the entire time.

I'm not digging up the relevant pages for something as pivotal as the entire basis behind the Deicide arc. That should be common knowledge by now.





Gomu said:


> Uryu and his father were humans, meaning they'd have to have taken breaks


Hahaha, no. Absolutely not.

The purpose of Uryu running about for days, desperately trying not to get shot dead by his father, was explicitly to exhaust him so that his powers could be restored. There were no breaks taken because that would be the very definition of counterproductive.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Ichigo and his dad spent almost three months in the Dangai, so that the former could obtain the Final Getsuga Tensho and fight Aizen. He spent those two thousand hours fighting his zanpakuto in jinzen the entire time.
> 
> I'm not digging up the relevant pages for something as pivotal as the entire basis behind the Deicide arc. That should be common knowledge by now.Hahaha, no. Absolutely not.
> 
> The purpose of Uryu running about for days, desperately trying not to get shot dead by his father, was explicitly to exhaust him so that his powers could be restored. There were no breaks taken because that would be the very definition of counterproductive.


That's more of a "Dive into your Heart" moment for the first one. So it was a battle of willpower more than stamina, that does not mean he could do so in the real world as it was done in his own spiritual world. I don't know how that translates as a stamina feat, it's basically like Naruto going into his own soul and fighting the Kyuubi, you can't say he can perform all those feats before or after it, as again it was a battle of willpowers.

It must not be, because I would have remembered such a feat. But after you described it I understood that yeah, it can't be counted as an actual stamina feat, maybe a willpower feat, but those two aren't necessarily the same. Unlike Bleach and Naruto, One Piece usually doesn't have "Dive into Your Soul" moments, they have actual stamina feats of fighting for days on end without rest.

I can't rebute that then.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That's more of a "Dive into your Heart" moment for the first one.


And that would be wrong.

The state of the physical body in the real world and in Jinzen are one and the same. If your hair grows longer outside, it's also longer while your sword is beating the shit out of you. If you get wounded while your sword is beating the shit out of you, those wound show up on the outside as well.

Muscle fatigue, lactic acid buildup, oxygen deprivation, and so forth are not exceptions.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> And that would be wrong.
> 
> The state of the physical body in the real world and in Jinzen are one and the same. If your hair grows longer outside, it's also longer while your sword is beating the shit out of you. If you get wounded while your sword is beating the shit out of you, those wound show up on the outside as well.
> 
> Muscle fatigue, lactic acid buildup, oxygen deprivation, and so forth are not exceptions.


OK. Still doesn't matter.

Ichigo had already been established as someone with immense stamina and willpower, you can't put his willpower in league with others because they aren't Ichigo, he was a monster for his stamina and learning potential in the heat of combat. Basically I'm saying just because Ichigo can do it, doesn't mean characters like Barragan can replicate the feat.

Cool.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> he was a monster for his stamina


Okay, first off, since fucking when? 

Secondly, Barragan never came into the equation when I noted Strawberry-kun's stamina as of Fake Karakura Town, although the argument could be potentially made for him regardless.

The original point was that eleven hours of fighting was not even close to being impressive when it's a figure beneath the capabilities of even common mob trash, let alone mid-tiers capable of going for spans hundreds of times greater.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

None of that has anything to do with his stamina.


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## Blαck (Feb 2, 2017)

If we can scale endurance feats, Cracker may benefit from Ace and Jimbei's scuffle. But this would only work if Cracker wasn't already exhausted from his and Luffy's fight, can't remember it


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Blαck said:


> If we can scale endurance feats, Cracker may benefit from Ace and Jimbei's scuffle. But this would only work if Cracker wasn't already exhausted from his and Luffy's fight, can't remember it


It really does not matter. Ichigo just like Kenpachi is a peculiarity in the series. His stamina feats usually can't scale to other peoples as he was not "normal", even at half his power he literally had the spiritual power to outshine a seasoned captain. He just did not have control, which was his main issue.

"Infinite Biscuits" -  - Not infinite but he can produce massive amounts. Hope Barragan can eat as well as Luffy can.

But no it doesn't scale to him. It doesn't matter, can't scale Ichigo's Stamina feats to anyone anyway. Maybe Condom Aizen, but they were on a different powerscale to begin with and Biscuit will be curbstomped by them.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Spiritual Power has everything to do with your stamina. It's your literal life line as a spiritual being, if you don't have spiritual power you can't fight.


No, that's actually completely fucking backwards. Reiryoku/reiatsu is produced by your body so long as you live. Your reiatsu growing faint is a symptom of your life being in danger, because you have to be alive to produce it; it's not the cause itself of your life being threatened.

It's not life force or anything like that. I have no idea how you've managed to make this misconception when Mayuri explains this relationship in no uncertain terms.

Secondly, just to go over your previous points? Stamina is connected to reiryoku/reiatsu, just as many things are connected to reiryoku/reiatsu, but reiatsu itself is not a literal measure of your stamina. Ichigo was not considered a significant factor in the outcome of the winter war because he could run marathons longer than everyone else.

It's just a general measure of your overall potential, and not even necessarily what you can actually efficiently output in practical terms. Let's not forget that Aizen also had twice the reiatsu level of an average captain, and it would be asinine to suggest that he and Strawberry-kun were even remotely comparable until the latter got his ass kicked by his sword over the course of nearly three months.

The instance with Yammy? Had nothing to do with his resolve, let alone his stamina. He was afflicted with a crippling case of hollow AIDS and nothing more.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

The idea that Ichigo was more powerful than Unohana on the way back to Karakura Town is laughable, by the way.


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## Blαck (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> The idea that Ichigo was more powerful than Unohana on the way back to Karakura Town is laughable, by the way.


Kubo didn't know how strong he wanted her to be, until it was too late


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> No, that's actually completely fucking backwards. Reiryoku/reiatsu is produced by your body so long as you live. Your reiatsu growing faint is a symptom of your life being in danger, because you have to be alive to produce it; it's not the cause itself of your life being threatened.
> 
> It's not life force or anything like that. I have no idea how you've managed to make this misconception when Mayuri explains this relationship in no uncertain terms.
> 
> ...


Oh god I knew you just couldn't fucking concede, OK then.

So after all the shit I showed you such as Chad's life force dwindling... He was a spiritual body at the time, that was his life force dwindling as he was literally dying as a soul.

Normal humans do not have so little traces of it that they don't notice it. However once you become a spiritual body, your reiryoku is more recognizable, it is in fact tied to your stamina.

Mhm...

That's because spiritual pressure is different from spiritual power. Just because you have a larger amount of ki than something (or reiatsu in this case) does not mean you have control over it. Kenpachi is and was a glaring example of this, he had a noticeably higher spiritual power than most of the Captains, but lacked control over it. His spiritual pressure was so overwhelming that his zanpaktou couldn't change, thus a disharmony occurred.

Yeah sure.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> The idea that Ichigo was more powerful than Unohana on the way back to Karakura Town is laughable, by the way.


It's not that he was more powerful. Once again, Reiryoku is your life force, Reiatsu is control over that life force, it's ki.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So after all the shit I showed you such as Chad's life force dwindling... He was a spiritual body at the time, that was his life force dwindling as he was literally dying as a soul.


Congratulations, you're still wrong, and somehow managing to fuck up things that have been explicitly explained.





			
				Chapter 623 said:
			
		

> Mayuri: A Shinigami’s reiatsu is *produced by his body* as long as his heart is still beating.


Spiritual energy is not life force.

When other people feel it disappearing it, and you're dying.. you're not dying because it's disappearing, you're dying because you have a dozen stab wounds.





Gomu said:


> Once again, Reiryoku is your life force,


You have no idea what you're talking about.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

The rest of your posts are irrelevant nonsense I shouldn't even have to respond to.

I can't tell if this shit is all just stuff you legitimately don't remember, or if you're running off of models and interpretations that are years out of date.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Congratulations, you're still wrong, and somehow managing to fuck up things that have been explicitly explained.You have no idea what you're talking about.


How about you go and take a look at the explanations of the differences between Reiatsu and Reiryoku. Big key differences. There might be a reason I showed you all those pages.

I know it is hard to concede here. You need to save face. But you're wrong here.

For example. Toshiro Hitsugaya had a very powerful spiritual power even while he was young, yet lacked control. He lacked control so much that it leaked out and made temperatures much colder than normal. Which was why he left his homestead. It has nothing to do with your "power", you can have a smaller power yet have a larger control over your spiritual pressure.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> The rest of your posts are irrelevant nonsense I shouldn't even have to respond to.
> 
> I can't tell if this shit is all just stuff you legitimately don't remember, or if you're running off of models and interpretations that are years out of date.


That sounds like a concession to me. Because if you notice in later chapters of Bleach they make sure to make Spiritual Power and Spiritual Pressure different from one another. Without a thorough control over your spiritual pressure you can't even perform kido properly.

Spiritual pressure is also how Foot Techniques work like Flash Step and Sonido works, blah blah.

But yes, keep playing yourself, Regicide. I won't tell anyone if you don't.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

I'm talking to a guy who couldn't even recall basic plot points or even names, and I'm the one in the wrong.


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

But no, you're either going on irrelevant tangents and/or your points are built on fundamentally wrong foundations, so it's really more pragmatic for me to just tell you to go back and start from the beginning.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> I'm talking to a guy who couldn't even recall basic plot points or even names, and I'm the one in the wrong.


Yeah sure.

I always apologize if I'm wrong. Maybe you should start saying "sorry" too, might make you less full of yourself. I mean I just showed you that unohana/Woman Kenpachi stated that Ichigo had twice the level of power compared of the averaged seasoned captain, yet still couldn't beat Aizen. That should have gave you everything you needed.

Dig yourself deeper into that quicksand. All you need is a rope, a nice "I concede I was wrong", might do some good.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

*Reiryoku* (霊力, _Spiritual Power_)
*Reiatsu* (霊圧, _Spiritual Pressure_)

If you can't notice the two differences here. You're just delusional.

I knew this already, but might want to do a bit of reading. Stop going deeper into that quicksand.


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## Xhominid (Feb 2, 2017)

_Every spiritual being and every Human has a certain amount of Reiryoku. If this amount is higher than a certain degree, it grants the person superhuman abilities. Those with such an above-average level of Reiryoku are very rare among living Humans. It seems to be that the most basic ability that Humans with a higher level of Reiryoku have is the ability to see ghosts: ,  and  alike. Shinigami are essentially souls in  with very high levels of Reiryoku who receive special training to utilize their powers. Hollows and other spirits use their Reiryoku to catch their prey.
_
Nothing about Reiryoku even remotely talks about stamina nor life force...


_is the physical force/pressure that a person’s  creates when released. Most , ,  and  can manipulate the release of their Reiatsu.

The difference between spiritual pressure and spiritual energy is simple: *Reiryoku* is the amount of energy a being has stored within their body or soul, whereas *Reiatsu* is the pressure that a person’s Reiryoku exerts. In other words, Reiryoku is potential while Reiatsu is energy in use and can be sensed by other spiritually aware beings. In general, those with high levels of Reiryoku will often have the highest levels of Reiatsu also. A skilled warrior can overcome a person possessing greater Reiryoku by possessing greater Reiatsu. This is achieved by having greater control over their own spirit energy._

Neither does Reiatsu...Gomu, you have no clue what you are talking about...

And for the record, Unohana was surprised Ichigo had that much reiryoku within his torn up form, let alone fully healed, not that he was stronger than her.


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## Xhominid (Feb 2, 2017)

Wow, I just brought in that whole definition, Reiatsu is NOT tied to Stamina, it is literally the control and output of Reiryoku.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> _Every spiritual being and every Human has a certain amount of Reiryoku. If this amount is higher than a certain degree, it grants the person superhuman abilities. Those with such an above-average level of Reiryoku are very rare among living Humans. It seems to be that the most basic ability that Humans with a higher level of Reiryoku have is the ability to see ghosts: ,  and  alike. Shinigami are essentially souls in  with very high levels of Reiryoku who receive special training to utilize their powers. Hollows and other spirits use their Reiryoku to catch their prey.
> _
> Nothing about Reiryoku even remotely talks about stamina nor life force...
> 
> ...


And you're still not understanding... That reiryoku and reiatsu are keenly different. Don't try to make me look like an idiot when I am the one that showed the key differences of it.

Unohana was talking about his spiritual power, not his reiryoku. Ichigo has always had a terrible control over his reiryoku.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Wow, I just brought in that whole definition, Reiatsu is NOT tied to Stamina, it is literally the control and output of Reiryoku.


Yes, please miss the part where Ichigo comments on Chad seemingly dying that I placed on the other page. Blind eyes see nothing. I could show you everything put it up as a video and you'd only yawn and say "I'm bored because I don't want to listen".


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## Xhominid (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> And you're still not understanding... That reiryoku and reiatsu are keenly different. Don't try to make me look like an idiot when I am the one that showed the key differences of it.
> 
> Unohana was talking about his spiritual power, not his reiryoku. Ichigo has always had a terrible control over his reiryoku.



The FUCKING WIKIA OUTRIGHT STATED THAT THERE ARE SUBTLE DIFFERENCES IN THE VERY FUCKING PARAGRAPH I BROUGHT HERE!

_The difference between spiritual pressure and spiritual energy is simple: *Reiryoku* is the amount of energy a being has stored within their body or soul, whereas *Reiatsu* is the pressure that a person’s Reiryoku exerts. In other words, Reiryoku is potential while Reiatsu is energy in use and can be sensed by other spiritually aware beings. In general, those with high levels of Reiryoku will often have the highest levels of Reiatsu also. A skilled warrior can overcome a person possessing greater Reiryoku by possessing greater Reiatsu. This is achieved by having greater control over their own spirit energy.
_
Read for fuck sake before responding immediately because I actually did it before you did for both Reiatsu and Reiryoku and neither one brings in stamina never.

Except Reiatsu is about greater CONTROL, which as you stated yourself Ichigo has little control over. Ichigo's Reiatsu is NOT his Reiryoku. Hell, Bleach itself doesn't use the term as much as it should.


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## Xhominid (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Yes, please miss the part where Ichigo comments on Chad seemingly dying that I placed on the other page. Blind eyes see nothing. I could show you everything put it up as a video and you'd only yawn and say "I'm bored because I don't want to listen".



...And none of that has to do with his reiatsu nor reiryoku being tied to his life force which is exactly what Regi was talking about...

I brought in both definitions specifically to point that out to you. Your Reiryoku going down doesn't suddenly mean you are dead, it's a SYMPTOM of your impending doom.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> ...And none of that has to do with his reiatsu nor reiryoku being tied to his life force which is exactly what Regi was talking about...
> 
> I brought in both definitions specifically to point that out to you. Your Reiryoku going down doesn't suddenly mean you are dead, it's a SYMPTOM of your impending doom.


Ok whatever. Sure. You got it @Xhominid, whatever you say.

Spiritual beings made up of spiritual power isn't a thing. He was not turned into a soul, Shinigami aren't souls given form. I follow you clearly.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

@Xhominid - Because you only posted what you wanted from there, and not actually what was the first sentence within the fucking page.

*Reiryoku* (霊力, _Spiritual Power_) is a power aligned with the spiritual sensitivity and *willpower *of the user


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## Keishin (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Not that it really matters because Cracker still wins due to sheer attrition of his Biscuit powers (also the older bread gets, it actually gets harder and petrifies if we're going by logic of time, a biscuit literally turns into a rock-hard substance given enough time).
> 
> I don't remember that 2000 hour feat. Scans?
> 
> And the two days also, could have had breaks because unless they imply that they aren't humans anymore... (Especially since before all this shit about a different clan of Quincy, Uryu and his father were humans, meaning they'd have to have taken breaks, not the same for One Piece as the context of the world is different, such as Ace's mom holding him in for two years, full-on fights with two admirals taking 10 days, etc.)


That doesnt matter if they petrify or turn to dust... The higher ranking espada all fight hundreds of meters in the air what can Cracker even do?


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## Regicide (Feb 2, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Yes, please miss the part where Ichigo comments on Chad seemingly dying that I placed on the other page.


See, this is what I'm talking about.

How can you expect me to contain my laughter when you're so adamant on misinterpreting something really simple?


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## B Rabbit (Feb 2, 2017)

It really doesn't matter.

You're talking about a guy who can create hundreds of cracker clobes who can keep up with mach 2k Luffy, and overwhelmed him in power. And need multiple G4 shots to take down one clone.

It's going to take someone from a high tier position to take him down, so Stark will just get molly walloped.


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## Keishin (Feb 2, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> It really doesn't matter.
> 
> You're talking about a guy who can create hundreds of cracker clobes who can keep up with mach 2k Luffy, and overwhelmed him in power. And need multiple G4 shots to take down one clone.
> 
> It's going to take someone from a high tier position to take him down, so Stark will just get molly walloped.


Wolves are more than enough while Stark sits it out.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 2, 2017)

>Takes multiple G4 hits.

>Thinks wolves will work.

Ok someone who actually knows what they're talking about.


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## Blαck (Feb 2, 2017)

Keishin said:


> That doesnt matter if they petrify or turn to dust... The higher ranking espada all fight hundreds of meters in the air what can Cracker even do?


Cracker stacks?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Regicide said:


> See, this is what I'm talking about.
> 
> How can you expect me to contain my laughter when you're so adamant on misinterpreting something really simple?


Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you got to be an idiot about it. 

You guys are seriously underestimating G4 Luffy. G4 Luffy is unquantifiably stronger than his base and the M3's. He barely beat Doflamingo, and Doflamingo was already stronger than City Busters.

You're hilarious.


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## Gomu (Feb 2, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Cracker stacks?


Constantly dodge them. Leap faster than they can react to. Fuck them up, yeah basically @Blαck.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 2, 2017)

Isshin keep the time current restricted during those 2000 hours by exerting reiatsu so that entire discussion about Ichigo being a singularity was useless.

Also Barragan doesn't need to make an effort to use Respira, the thing is constantly working automatically while he's alive, otherwise he would need protection from it and wouln't have been defeated as he was. So he is the stopping point for Cracker and most everyone in One Piece.

If you go with pure brute strenght, then he stops at Byakuya or Hitsugaya EoS


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## Xhominid (Feb 2, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Isshin keep the time current restricted during those 2000 hours by exerting reiatsu so that entire discussion about Ichigo being a singularity was useless.
> 
> Also Barragan doesn't need to make an effort to use Respira, the thing is constantly working automatically while he's alive, otherwise he would need protection from it and wouln't have been defeated as he was. So he is the stopping point for Cracker and most everyone in One Piece.
> 
> If you go with pure brute strenght, then he stops at Byakuya or Hitsugaya EoS



Gomu barely knows what he's even talking about...

He tried to compare willpower with freaking stamina. I think that alone shows how desperate he is.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 3, 2017)

Yeah Cracker stops at Barragon, but he cpuld beat alot of the high tiers.Barragon is just a bad matchup.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gomu (Feb 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Gomu barely knows what he's even talking about...
> 
> He tried to compare willpower with freaking stamina. I think that alone shows how desperate he is.


Sure, whatever you say.


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## Xhominid (Feb 3, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Yeah Cracker stops at Barragon, but he cpuld beat alot of the high tiers.Barragon is just a bad matchup.



People are going to have to post stats of him and how he fairs against the other hax characters Bleach has as it's high tiers are full of them.



Gomu said:


> Sure, whatever you say.



Says the guy who is using willpower as a gauge for stamina...


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 3, 2017)

That's why I said Byakuya and Hitsugaya, they are four digits mach and casually island level+, with the ice and flower petals they have a wide AoE and a consistent defense and attack method, i.e getting close to them gets you cut or frozen while they can attack from a safe distance.


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## Blαck (Feb 3, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> That's why I said Byakuya and Hitsugaya, *they are four digits mach *and casually island level+, with the ice and flower petals they have a wide AoE and a consistent defense and attack method, i.e getting close to them gets you cut or frozen while they can attack from a safe distance.



What feat was this from? The black hand one?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 3, 2017)

Blαck said:


> What feat was this from? The black hand one?



Yeah, Ywach scales to that, then both Ichigo and Yoruichi where portrayed at this level too, Ichigo by fighting him without getting blitzed and Yoruichi by surrounding him with wires. Wich also gives that to Urahara, the SRElites, Kyoraku, Ukitake, even Mayuri for reactions.

Also, SS Byakuya was mach500 and he went trough a training that made Rukia from half decent liutenant into captain level so there's that.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Blαck (Feb 3, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> People are going to have to post stats of him and how he fairs against the other hax characters Bleach has as it's high tiers are full of them.



I guess as far as stats are concerned, Craker is at least city level(could be Island level, but I don't recall a feat like that atm). MHS(whatever the hell the fuji meteor is sitting at). Durability (same as dc probably, took several shots from g4).


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## Keishin (Feb 3, 2017)

Physically characters like Royd and Meninas should be there considering how both dealt with Kenpachi.


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## Xhominid (Feb 3, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Physically characters like Royd and Meninas should be there considering how both dealt with Kenpachi.



Any character that remotely scales to Shikai Kenpachi is Island Level easily. Which mainly almost all of the Top Tier characters.



Keishin said:


> Physically characters like Royd and Meninas should be there considering how both dealt with Kenpachi.



Hax characters in general mainly fuck up Cracker's day in the first place and Bleach is full of them...


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Hax characters in general mainly fuck up Cracker's day in the first place and Bleach is full of them...


It's really only the SR that are the trouble, the ss didn't have much ridiculous to deal with hax aside from Kyoraku.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Blαck said:


> It's really only the SR that are the trouble, the ss didn't have much ridiculous to deal with hax aside from Kyoraku.


From the shinigami Mayuri, Urahara, Ichibei, Shinji, Aizen, Gin (not sure how a cell eating poison affects durability) all have some sort of powerful hax also Hitsugaya has some kind of hax nullification EoS, and Ukitake & Kirio Hikifune have absorbing techs.


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## Xhominid (Feb 4, 2017)

Blαck said:


> It's really only the SR that are the trouble, the ss didn't have much ridiculous to deal with hax aside from Kyoraku.



Actually, Byakuya's new Senkei Technique should easily have the power to destroy Cracker and Hitsugaya's new form basically shits on numbers. Urahara's Bankai pretty much works automatically if anyone is too close to her, and Yamamato should still have the DC to kill Cracker easily, not to mention Yourichi's improved Shunko abilities, it's more than just the SR whose a threat to Cracker, let's not overstate any of the OP characters here.


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Actually, Byakuya's new Senkei Technique should easily have the power to destroy Cracker and Hitsugaya's new form basically shits on numbers. Urahara's Bankai pretty much works automatically if anyone is too close to her, and Yamamato should still have the DC to kill Cracker easily, not to mention Yourichi's improved Shunko abilities, it's more than just the SR whose a threat to Cracker, let's not overstate any of the OP characters here.


Hitsugaya- what did he do again? More ice stuff? 

Urahara- Sure his Bankai seems to act similar to Law's df(ignoring durability for the most part) but what stop cracker from just making more Biscuits?

Yamamoto- you got me there.

Yoruichi- That lightning cat shit? What did she even do? Other than annoy Askin.




Keishin said:


> From the shinigami Mayuri, Urahara, Ichibei, Shinji, Aizen, Gin (not sure how a cell eating poison affects durability) all have some sort of powerful hax also Hitsugaya has some kind of hax nullification EoS, and Ukitake & Kirio Hikifune have absorbing techs.



Mayuri- Not sure how poison will do against bread but he's tricky.

Ichibei- Forgot about that guy, yeah he'd wreck cracker as well.

Urahara-see above

Aizen- well him too 

Gin- unless he stabs the correct Cracker on the first try he's gonna get skewered or tries to fight from a distance 

Ukitake- almost a non factor against a physical combatant .

Hikifune- Who?


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## Kensei13 (Feb 4, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Also,* SS Byakuya was mach500* and he went trough a training that made Rukia from half decent liutenant into captain level so there's that.



I question this because this level of speed was made a big deal later when it came to Gin's bankai, and then even Gin may have lied(however I do think there was some merit to his statement and that his bankai is reasonably close at around Mach 400-450).

But as far as speed  or  reaction timing is concerned, I think Bleach gets heavily underestimated around here. The final arc reaffirmed how fast the top and high tiers can be.  Ichigo was casually reacting to Candice's cloud-to- ground lightning. In return, Candice was able to react to his Getsuga Juujisho that dispersed her lightning. *Even Base/Shikai Ichigo* (not including hollowfication that amps his speed) this late in the game is likely beyond the Mach 500 mark and other speedsters at this level or above should be able to scale to him. The other femritters can scale to Candice, considering she was implied to be the weakest of the group.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Hitsugaya- what did he do again? More ice stuff?
> 
> Urahara- Sure his Bankai seems to act similar to Law's df(ignoring durability for the most part) but what stop cracker from just making more Biscuits?
> 
> ...


Hitsugaya's ice nullified Gerard's "hope" which repelled damage and Ukitake is a senior captain so he scales to the normal sternritters anyway.
Well Mayuri has an AoE range for bankai poisons so it doesn't have to target someone. 
Hikifune's ability can take the Elite's attacks and that's Gerard actually using the Hoffnung, the next time he used it was against shikai Kenpachi.


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Hitsugaya's ice nullified Gerard's "hope" which repelled damage and Ukitake is a senior captain so he scales to the normal sternritters anyway.
> Well Mayuri has an AoE range for bankai poisons so it doesn't have to target someone.
> Hikifune's ability can take the Elite's attacks and that's Gerard actually using the Hoffnung, the next time he used it was against shikai Kenpachi.



I might have to reread that arc, can't remember much. Anyway, Ukitake scales to the goonies of the sr so he's not much of an issue. Mayuri's poison could be an issue but only if he manages to fire/spread it. Though, it's possible Cracker could just get out of the area in the mean time I suppose. As for Hikifune, at least island level damage soak for the trees. Do we have an idea of how fast she summons these mid battle?


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> People are going to have to post stats of him and how he fairs against the other hax characters Bleach has as it's high tiers are full of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Says the guy who is using willpower as a gauge for stamina...


Well, when your character constantly loses his willpower and he starts losing like a sack of shit from the smallest disturbance in his psyche on almost any battle he fights. You kinda have to gauge it by willpower. Or do you Masters of Bleach never notice how much Ichigo's battles fluctuate on his willpower? Masters of Bleach.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Blαck said:


> snip


Adult Hitsugaya easily cleaved through a stronger version of a sword that only chipped when clashing with Zaraki.

Urahara can just directly restructure his opponents.

Yoruichi can pummel an Aizen stronger than Zaraki.

Poison is the least of Mayuri's repertoire. Drugs that leave your mind trapped in a timeloop, paralyzing you through sound, accelerating your senses to the point that you perceive a second as being a century, etc.


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Adult Hitsugaya easily cleaved through a stronger version of a sword that only chipped when clashing with Zaraki.
> 
> Urahara can just directly restructure his opponents.
> 
> ...



Damn, so hitsugaya was actually putting in work? yeah, definitely gonna have to reread that arc 

Urahara's shenanigans are only a threat if he can find the real cracker  because slicing them up is pointless if cracker can just reform them.But now that I think about it, was no drawback to his bankai? 

Wait, condom aizen is still considered stronger than after unohana Kenny?!

Most of Mayuri's poison is pointless unless Cracker(the real one) comes into contact with it, now that *paralyzing sound *will be a bitch to deal with.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Wait, condom aizen is still considered stronger than after unohana Kenny?!


The former is transcendent and the latter isn't. So uh, yeah.


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> The former is transcendent and the latter isn't. So uh, yeah.



Wasn't there some in story bs about kenny reaching that point too? If not, then wow, how the hell did Kubo pull that one off?


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Nah, nothing of the sort.


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Nah, nothing of the sort.


well, damn .


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Bleach is a bunch of asspulls that have no real context after a certain point in the second arc. Ichigo is Transcendant and stronger than Aizen, but then not. Ichigo's Bankai is fake for reasons. Ichigo has Quincy Powers, for reasons. If Ichigo isn't considered a singularity now, then we definitely didn't read the same series. 

Ichigo was the only character who was a Shinigami/FullBring/Quincy/Hollow/Visored all in the same body. He was 1/20th of everything, technically humans are all "souls" so thank god for that. I'm just having a good time trying to figure how Ichigo wasn't a singularity for stamina and willpower. His battles frequently changed thanks to how sharp his resolve is, every single one of them in the first half before the Quincy's came, then it was most of them.


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Guess Cracker stops at Barry liked previously agreed so we're good here.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Guess Cracker stops at Barry liked previously agreed so we're good here.


That is moreso if Barragan can fire off a respira before he gets clubbed, if he can't then yeah, he loses. Unlike Soifon Pre-skip, Cracker can easily dodge his attacks.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Standard distance is twenty meters.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Standard distance is twenty meters.


I'm pretty sure that if Luffy can create a trail of flames under his feet, can dodge a huge point blank explosion from a slime, and can keep up and even outmanuver guys who can deal with a meteor coming at triple to quadruple digits and this guy has the speed to keep up with that, he'll be fine in terms of distance and speed. He doesn't even have to go himself. Send enough Biscuit Clones and he'd overpower Barragan as they were all comparable to G4 Luffy.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

That's a wonderful sequence of non-sequiturs and all, but it doesn't change the fact that no blitzing is going to be occurring in this match from a starting distance of twenty meters.

i.e, Barragan's ability to get off respira can't really be questioned


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> That's a wonderful sequence of non-sequiturs and all, but it doesn't change the fact that no blitzing is going to be occurring in this match from a starting distance of twenty meters.
> 
> i.e, Barragan's ability to get off respira can't really be questioned


If Soifon can dodge it, it can be dodged. Biscuit has a more versatile if not more looney power set than Soifon, he doesn't even need to be in close vicinity of his clones, he's faster and he can fuck Barragan up in a single blow before he knows it happened.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> If Soifon can dodge it, it can be dodged. Biscuit has a more versatile if not more looney power set than Soifon, he doesn't even need to be in close vicinity of his clones, he's faster and he can fuck Barragan up in a single blow before he knows it happened.


Just as well he can disappears nigh instantly from the effect.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> If Soifon can dodge it, it can be dodged. Biscuit has a more versatile if not more looney power set than Soifon, he doesn't even need to be in close vicinity of his clones, he's faster and he can fuck Barragan up in a single blow before he knows it happened.


None of which has anything to do with the original point.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Just as well he can disappears nigh instantly from the effect.


I'm just gonna ignore Regicide for now.

Yes you're correct. But again he's faster. If Barragan was undefeatable (and maybe this might be because of the authors stupidity rather than it being an indisputable fact) he would have been the strongest Espada. He was not. They implied that Starrk could defeat him by making him the second strongest.

Cracker is both stronger and faster than Soifon. He can be defeated instantly, that's true, if it hits. But he has versatility and is known for letting his clones do his dirty work.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I'm just gonna ignore Regicide for now.
> 
> Yes you're correct. But again he's faster. If Barragan was undefeatable (and maybe this might be because of the authors stupidity rather than it being an indisputable fact) he would have been the strongest Espada. He was not. They implied that Starrk could defeat him by making him the second strongest.
> 
> Cracker is both stronger and faster than Soifon. He can be defeated instantly, that's true, if it hits. But he has versatility and is known for letting his clones do his dirty work.


Versatility in what.. He cant fly, he has ass range he has no real good abilities all he can do is create and mold soldiers to fight as his armor. And the speed at which he can do that is vastly inferior to Starrk's wolves or the 1000 cero ranged shot anyway...

Barragan was the #2 yes but the respira is an ability and Kubo used the idea of respira for some of the top+ tiers who have a passive shield around them so from in-universe perspective the ability seems pretty undefeatable since it's practically exclusive and an espada still had something like that. 

*Spoiler*: __ 









I think you also forgot that when you come close to barragan your movements basically come to a halt.

Also the difference between Barragan and Starrk was that Starrk had the most casual ceros and reiatsu use out of any espada. Look at how ceros were like in the HM arc with Nnoitra or Ulq using a cero and the Kenpachi or someone tanking it, while with Starrk he could shoot hundreds of ceros with no effort. That doesn't really mean that Starrk could defeat barragan though, it means that he could defeat many more fodders than barragan in alot shorter time.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Versatility in what.. He cant fly, he has ass range he has no real good abilities all he can do is create and mold soldiers to fight as his armor. And the speed at which he can do that is vastly inferior to Starrk's wolves or the 1000 cero ranged shot anyway...
> 
> Barragan was the #2 yes but the respira is an ability and Kubo used the idea of respira for some of the top+ tiers who have a passive shield around them so from in-universe perspective the ability seems pretty undefeatable since it's practically exclusive and an espada still had something like that.
> 
> ...


So what if he can't fly, One Piece characters are known for being able to leap significantly large heights. Bleach characters create sky-based platforms so it's not even real flight. 

When was it stated or shown that the Biscuit Clones had limited range? The weakness of the fruit was it becoming wet, not its range.

Just because it can affect characters as slow as Soifon doesn't mean it can affect Cracker the same way. Again Soifon is much slower than Cracker.

That's your own theory, right? Not confirmed?


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So what if he can't fly, One Piece characters are known for being able to leap significantly large heights. Bleach characters create sky-based platforms so it's not even real flight.
> 
> When was it stated or shown that the Biscuit Clones had limited range? The weakness of the fruit was it becoming wet, not its range.
> 
> ...


About half of them can fly actually. All SRs for example, Ulq and Hitsugaya also.
Because they didn't really have any range?
That thing is what stops Respira from affecting Barragan himself though..


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> About half of them can fly actually. All SRs for example, Ulq and Hitsugaya also.
> Because they didn't really have any range?
> That thing is what stops Respira from affecting Barragan himself though..


Ulq and Hitsu had wings. Those who don't have wings made platforms at their feet due to spiritual control.

Show me an example of them not having any range? I think you're mistaking Luffy's running away as a lack of range.

Because with what you're saying a stronger and faster character wouldn't be able to hit Barragan from close combat at all. That's NLF. I'm not saying that it won't affect him, but he affected someone of Soifon's speed one of the fastest characters in the series (possibly third fastest or fourth depending on Aizen), Cracker is low Quadruple Mach.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Ulq and Hitsu had wings. Those who don't have wings made platforms at their feet due to spiritual control.
> 
> Show me an example of them not having any range? I think you're mistaking Luffy's running away as a lack of range.
> 
> Because with what you're saying a stronger and faster character wouldn't be able to hit Barragan from close combat at all. That's NLF. I'm not saying that it won't affect him, but he affected someone of Soifon's speed one of the fastest characters in the series (possibly third fastest or fourth depending on Aizen), Cracker is low Quadruple Mach.


Look at how close luffy is fighting them and they try to push closer to get a clean hit, they have no good abilities for any relevant fights. Now that I look at this the AoE of bankai Urahara is definitely enough to deal with Cracker. The only problem is their speed really.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

I wasn't talking about Urahara, I was talking about Barragan, and it doesn't matter because again. Quadruple Digits versus Triple Machs at best, 500 to be exact.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> I wasn't talking about Urahara, I was talking about Barragan, and it doesn't matter because again. Quadruple Digits versus Triple Machs at best, 500 to be exact.


Speed is just one thing but as I already pointed out there is definitely none of this versatility advantage on crackers side.'

If you want versatility he's not getting past Hachigen or EoS Orihime.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Speed is just one thing but as I already pointed out there is definitely none of this versatility advantage on crackers side.'
> 
> If you want versatility he's not getting past Hachigen or EoS Orihime.


Except one of them will be able to see him move, except for Orihime due to her protecting Ichigo.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except one of them will be able to see him move, except for Orihime due to her protecting Ichigo.


Hachigen (and Tessai) have teleportation kidos they can instantly lop enemies' heads off as you can see during FKT.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Hachigen (and Tessai) have teleportation kidos they can instantly lop enemies' heads off as you can see during FKT.


Teleportation gives them the ability to react faster than characters now. I guess Hachigen can beat anyone with that ability, I never heard of teleportation giving characters reactions...


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## Jackalinthebox (Feb 4, 2017)

Cracker isn't blitzing anyone worth their salt


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Cracker isn't blitzing anyone worth their salt


Not saying he is, the Espada are Triple Digit Mach Mid-end while Cracker is handily on the level of Doflamingo and should be exceeding Quadruple Digits Mach 2000.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> someone of Soifon's speed one of the fastest characters in the series (possibly third fastest or fourth depending on Aizen)


Nah, Soifon's not worth shit in the grand scheme of things.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Nah, Soifon's not worth shit in the grand scheme of things.


She was in the first half of the series, the fact that she could place so many marks on even  a playful Yoruichi meant she was one of the fastest characters in the series. Sorry if you didn't think so.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

She fought a rusty Yoruichi, whose capabilities had degraded to the point where she admitted being unable to defeat Byakuya circa Soul Society arc. And was immediately humiliated once shunko came out.

That fight alone is nothing that impressive in regards to accolades, and even before the timeskip, Soifon still had no right to be called third or fourth fastest.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> She fought a rusty Yoruichi, whose capabilities had degraded to the point where she admitted being unable to defeat Byakuya circa Soul Society. And was immediately humiliated once shunko came out.
> 
> That fight alone is nothing that impressive in regards to accolades, and even before the timeskip, Soifon still had no right to be called third or fourth fastest.


And yet she was. Deal with it. Her entire moveset was an emphasis on her speed and her ability to assassin foes. Now if you're talking from a power-up stand point, I'm not. That's a difference of perspective. Dangai and Condom Aizen don't count in my perspective as they were made to be superior to everyone at that time.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

3rd or 4th fastest my ass


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## Amae (Feb 4, 2017)

Clearly you have to deal with it, Keishin.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> And yet she was.


She demonstrably wasn't.

Barragan made sport of her as part of a mere demonstration of an entirely unrelated part of his skillset.

Starrk, by powerscaling, would have as well had they ever come to blows. By that metric, so would Shunsui.

If you believe that they were peers, Ukitake can be thrown in too, along with Wonderweiss. Unohana would have make sashimi out of Soifon.

Aizen and Yama go without saying. So do Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi.

More than just a mere handful of characters, even when limited to just those prior to the timeskip, who can all claim to be her better.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> She demonstrably wasn't.
> 
> Barragan made sport of her as part of a mere demonstration of an entirely unrelated part of his skillset.
> 
> ...


Just because you're more powerful than someone doesn't mean their speed is inferior. I said the "fastest" not the the "strongest", her status is explicitly built from her speed.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Yes, and she's arguably slower than everyone in that list.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> 3rd or 4th fastest my ass


Still one of the faster characters in the series. I don't really care. You know how many "flash step behind" intros their are for characters. There's a fucking meme about it.

Oh and this.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

You realize those numbers are in proportion purely to their respective owners, and not an overarching evaluation of everyone relative to each other, yes?


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> You realize those numbers are in proportion purely to their respective owners, and not an overarching evaluation of everyone relative to each other, yes?


And that's how Tite Kubo sees his captains. You guys powerscale horribly in most cases, so I don't care.


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## Amae (Feb 4, 2017)

Didn't  here? Then being able to keep up with him would make you much faster than her.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> And that's how Tite Kubo sees his captains. You guys powerscale horribly in most cases, so I don't care.


The point is that it's largely irrelevant for the purposes of discussing relative speed because the numbers don't pertain to anyone beyond who they're personally attributed to.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Amae said:


> Didn't  here? Then being able to keep up with him would make you much faster than her.


Actually no. They were all under the effects of his illusions and they "couldn't" beat him as they didn't understand the perspective thanks to the influence of his illusion, big difference.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> The point is that it's largely irrelevant for the purposes of discussing relative speed because the numbers don't pertain to anyone beyond who they're personally attributed to.


Except for the Captains you stated could outdo her in speed. I guess you can never say you're wrong about anything, even when you are from the perspective of the series creator.


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## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Actually no. They were all under the effects of his illusions and they "couldn't" beat him as they didn't understand the perspective thanks to the influence of his illusion, big difference.


Fuck no they weren't

Aizen using KS in that scene would have been incredibly redundant.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Fuck no they weren't
> 
> Aizen using KS in that scene would have been incredibly redundant.


Uh... yes they were, it was one of the biggest plot points and why Ichigo was considered the "trump card" for fighting Aizen before his Dangai power-up. they had all been shown Aizen's shikai when he was still a captain, thus the illusion was always active.


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## Amae (Feb 4, 2017)

Yeah, but that was after he already revealed himself.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except for the Captains you stated could outdo her in speed.


It's not relevant to them either because, again, they're not Soifon. The numbers are proportional evaluations of the overall capabilities of each individual, they're not compared between person to person.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> It's not relevant to them either because, again, they're not Soifon. The numbers are proportional evaluations of the overall capabilities of each individual, they're not compared between person to person.


No. They are a basis on the 13 Captains as where they rank towards one another. Soifon can still be one of the fastest captains without being the strongest too. Nothing wrong with that mentality.


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## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Uh... yes they were, it was one of the biggest plot points and why Ichigo was considered the "trump card" for fighting Aizen before his Dangai power-up. they had all been shown Aizen's shikai when he was still a captain, thus the illusion was always active.



No character was under an illusion 100% of the time, you need to infer when its being used if not explicitly stated. See Yama grabbing Aizen.

Again, makes no sense for anyone at the blitz scene to be under an illusion. You'd know this if you read what Aizen says right before he does it.

I mean, this isn't going into how retarded it is to assume a half-dead Soifon can run circles around Aizen.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

So what's the general consensus here?

Assuming there is one.


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> No. They are a basis on the 13 Captains as where they rank towards one another.


Certainly. And I'm sure Aizen, Unohana, Zaraki, and Koma all possess comparable might to Yama.

Hell, Zaraki and Komamura (and potentially even Unohana) wouldn't even be able to claim being on _Aizen's_ tier, let alone Old Man Genocide himself.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Certainly. And I'm sure Aizen, Unohana, Zaraki, and Koma all possess comparable might to Yama.
> 
> Hell, Zaraki and Komamura (and potentially even Unohana) wouldn't even be able to claim being on _Aizen's_ tier, let alone Old Man Genocide himself.


I'm just using what Tite made. I'm sorry using a source from a series is a problem. *Shrugs*


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## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Yes, you're taking something the author presented and blatantly misinterpreting it.

Which way of reading it do you think Occam's razor supports more? The one with glaring and obvious holes that could otherwise be easily avoided? Or the one without?


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Yes, you're taking something the author presented and blatantly misinterpreting it.
> 
> Which way of reading it do you think Occam's razor supports more? The one with glaring and obvious holes that could otherwise be easily avoided? Or the one without?


Take it up with the mangaka. Unless you mean the mangaka's intents should also be falsified so that you can keep your level of headcanon. In which case interpret it as you want, I still say she's at least the third fastest captain. (If Yoruichi were still a captain) it's the truth. What do you want from me.


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## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

All I know is she isn't passing Barragan, she will die against him.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Still one of the faster characters in the series. I don't really care. You know how many "flash step behind" intros their are for characters. There's a fucking meme about it.
> 
> Oh and this.


Yeah I do and I know that the slower character gets blitzed and the weaker character is going to get punked by a strong punch from a stronger character.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Feb 4, 2017)

She's at the very least slower than Yoru, Urahara, Aizen, Shunsui and Yama. That much should be obvious


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Respira is actually faster than Soi Fong



Also, a Shinigami and his weapons can last for 2000+ years, a niormal human will rot far faster, also it expands trough the body so is not like he has to completely cover someone in it.


----------



## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Implied that he could have used it whenever he felt like it.


Could being the key word. Where is the evidence however, that he _did_

By the way, not missing the irony on how you're calling out poor powerscaling when you're the one issuing



> a half-dead Soifon can run circles around Aizen.



which is pretty improbable yeah.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Now that I think about it, which character in OP can actually kill or defeat Barragan ?


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Yeah I do and I know that the slower character gets blitzed and the weaker character is going to get punked by a strong punch from a stronger character.


Nah, there's a constant thing were characters appear behind one another, even if they are on equal terms throughout the entire battle, Kubo loves doing that shit. I'm actually looking for that collage which shows all the times it happened to that point but I can't remember what it was called. It was a long comic strip.


Sablés said:


> *Could being the key word. Where is the evidence however, that he did*



Nah, because...




Sablés said:


> which is pretty improbable yeah.


Ahhh so what you're saying is that stamina could become a factor in someone becoming SLOWER, oh jeez. I never thought you'd admit that. Give yourself a hand.


----------



## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

Akira1993 said:


> Now that I think about it, which character in OP can actually kill or defeat Barragan ?



Anyone with sufficient power and aoe.


----------



## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nah, there's a constant thing were characters appear behind one another, even if they are on equal terms throughout the entire battle, Kubo loves doing that shit. I'm actually looking for that collage which shows all the times it happened to that point but I can't remember what it was called. It was a long comic strip.
> 
> 
> Nah, because...
> ...


And Oda loves having every. single. character. cry and it doesn't change anything. Faster characters will blitz the slower ones, that's why they appear behind their backs. Constantly.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Take it up with the mangaka.


I don't have to take it up with the author when you're reading it incorrectly.


Gomu said:


> I still say she's at least the third fastest captain. (If Yoruichi were still a captain) it's the truth.


Pity that argument from belief doesn't trump feats and powerscaling, where Soifon is underwhelming.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> And *Oda loves having every. single. character. cry* and it doesn't change anything. Faster characters will blitz the slower ones, that's why they appear behind their backs. Constantly.


Except that's not a speed feat.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Anyone with sufficient power and aoe.


But if I recall correctly, his respira is passive around him ( protection against any fast character who can blitz him and are powerhouse only ).
And his ability can also work on elements and matter since they are subject to time. Only Kizaru can kill him with his laser since laser doesn't age I guess.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> I don't have to take it up with the author when you're reading it incorrectly.


That sounds a lot like a your problem. Your feats don't go against Tite Kubo's facts. Soifon is the third fastest in the Captain's Band. So you should deal with that.



Regicide said:


> Pity that argument from belief doesn't trump feats and powerscaling, where Soifon is underwhelming.


Still a you problem right there...


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Akira1993 said:


> But if I recall correctly, his respira is passive around him.


Yes and no.

Respira is not passive, but senescencia is, which is his time slowing/accelerating field.


----------



## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except that's not a speed feat.


It's a meme.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Respira is not passive, but senescencia is, which is his time slowing/accelerating field.


So respira is an enhanced version of senescencia ?


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> It's a meme.


Just like Flash step "Surprise" right?

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Keishin (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Just like Flash step "Surprise" right?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


That's maybe 1/100th of it so no.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Keishin said:


> That's maybe 1/100th of it so no.


Mmmmm that's because it's hard fitting all the times it happens in the montage, and it's kinda old.


----------



## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nah, because...



Right, so Aizen was using Kyouka Suigetsu against the first captains here?



Cuz you know we're looking at this from Ichigo's perspective. Not to mention that statement wouldn't apply to after the fact which is where the blitz takes place.




> Ahhh so what you're saying is that stamina could become a factor in someone becoming SLOWER, oh jeez. I never thought you'd admit that. Give yourself a hand.



What the fuck does this have to do with how utterly inane it is to think Soifon's fast enough to dupe Aizen's field of vision and with her feats being so pitiful in the grand scheme of things?


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Your feats don't go against Tite Kubo's facts.


It's a good thing I never suggested as such.

It's also a good thing that these don't necessarily contradict each other unless you deliberately interpret one such that they do.

Let's also not forget that the manga, which contradicts your interpretation of the aforementioned numbers on multiple accounts, is.. also written by Kubo.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Right, so Aizen was using Kyouka Suigetsu against the first captains here?


He used it on every Captain and Vice Captain and it was active whenever he so desired it.



Sablés said:


> What the fuck does this have to do with how utterly inane it is to think Soifon's fast enough to dupe Aizen's field of vision and with her feats being so pitiful in the grand scheme of things?


There you go thinking speed is overall power again.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> It's a good thing I never suggested as such.
> 
> It's also a good thing that these don't necessarily contradict each other unless you deliberately interpret one such that they do.
> 
> Let's also not forget that the manga, which contradicts your interpretation of the aforementioned numbers on multiple accounts, is.. *also written by Kubo.*


Guess you didn't see the montage... Characters get behind one another every other fight.

It's really not my fault that overall you're wrong.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Good thing speed isn't the only part where your interpretation is faulty.


----------



## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> He used it on every Captain and Vice Captain and it was active whenever he so desired it.



Did you just ignore Aizen clearly not using it on Komamura Love and co? Did you also forget in the span of a few minutes that being able to choose when his illusions are active =/= actually activating them.

The latter is what you need to prove here and you're failing miserably at it.



> There you go thinking speed is overall power again.


Only I'm directly referring to speed which we can see quite fucking clearly, Soifon is nowhere near Aizen. She's not even on the level of some Espada.

Is your debate tactic intentionally (I might even believe unintentionally at this point) misrepresenting all facts to propagate this noise ad infinitum?


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Good thing speed isn't the only part where your interpretation is faulty.


Still better than yours when using Kubo's love for appearing behind people as a speed feat because technically, Soifon appeared behind Yoruichi. Guess that's not a feat though. I won't uh... bother you anymore. 



Sablés said:


> Did you just ignore Aizen clearly not using it on Komamura Love and co? Did you also forget in the span of a few minutes that being able to choose when his illusions are active =/= actually activating them.
> 
> The latter is what you need to prove here and you're failing miserably at it.



You mean he's not doing something he doesn't have to do, right? He doesn't have to activate anymore, the reason why Ichigo was a trump card was because he wasn't shown the shikai.


Sablés said:


> Only I'm directly referring to speed which we can see quite fucking clearly, Soifon is nowhere near Aizen. She's not even on the level of some Espada.
> 
> Is your debate tactic intentionally (I might even believe unintentionally at this point) misrepresenting all facts to propagate this noise ad infinitum?



Nah, I'm just using the stats that say she's faster again. Aizen was fresh when he fought the captains, so of course he'd be capable of fighting them better. She has a 100 in Mobility he has a 90, should be obvious, and to me it is, just not to you.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Nah, I'm just using the stats that say she's faster again. Aizen was fresh when he fought the captains, so of course he'd be capable of fighting them better. She has a 100 in Mobility he has a 90, should be obvious, and to me it is, just not to you.



Those stats only represent the fighting style of a character, not who is faster compared to other captains.


----------



## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> You mean he's not doing something he doesn't have to do, right? He doesn't have to activate anymore, the reason why Ichigo was a trump card was because he wasn't shown the shikai.



What does ANY of this have to do with whether or not Aizen used KS against Soifon? You side-stepped the actual problem with your theory and brought up a completely irrelevant tangent that only serves to prove that you don't know the source material.




> Nah, I'm just using the stats that say she's faster again. Aizen was fresh when he fought the captains, so of course he'd be capable of fighting them better. She has a 100 in Mobility he has a 90, should be obvious, and to me it is, just not to you.


You mean the same stats that place a good bunch of the captains on-par with Yama in power?


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Feb 4, 2017)

Byakuya also had a 90 stat in speed, yet he was getting blitzed by Ichigo. Aizen was clowning Ichigo with his speed...am I supposed to believe Aizen's speed = Byakuya's? 

So using stats we have Aizen > Ichigo > Byakuya = Aizen


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Those stats only represent the fighting style of a character, not who is faster compared to other captains.


That makes absolutely no sense...


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Byakuya also had a 90 stat in speed, yet he was getting blitzed by Ichigo. Aizen was clowning Ichigo with his speed...am I supposed to believe Aizen's speed = Byakuya's?
> 
> So using stats we have Aizen > Ichigo > Byakuya = Aizen


Byakuya was having trouble with the Speed Espada after all. If we go by feats, Ichigo was stronger than him as Grimmjow was the 6th Espada. Just saying. Blame a "fluctuation of spiritual pressure".


----------



## jasongtrturbo (Feb 4, 2017)

The elite sternritter


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That makes absolutely no sense...



Soi Fong has 100 on physical strengh, as does Komamura, Aizen ranks with 80.

Yamamoto? 60.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Soi Fong has 1000 on physical strengh, as does Komamura, Aizen ranks with 90.
> 
> Yamamoto? 60.


That's stamina you dumbass.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> hat's stamina you dumbass.



*Suì-Fēng's Battle Data, clockwise.* Top: Offense (80), Top Right: Defense (60), Bottom right: Mobility (100), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (60), Bottom Left: Intelligence (60), Top Left: Physical Strength (100). *Total: 460/600.*

*Komamura's Battle Data, clockwise.* Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (100), Bottom right: Mobility (40), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (50), Bottom Left: Intelligence (80), Top Left: Physical Strength (100). *Total: 470/600.*

*Aizen's Battle Data, clockwise.* Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (90), Bottom right: Mobility (90), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (100), Bottom Left: Intelligence (100), Top Left: Physical Strength (80). *Total: 560/600.*
*
Yamamoto's Battle Data, clockwise.* Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (100), Bottom right: Mobility (100), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (100), Bottom Left: Intelligence (100), Top Left: Physical Strength (60). *Total: 560/600.*


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> *Yamamoto's Battle Data, clockwise.* Top: Offense (100), Top Right: Defense (100), Bottom right: Mobility (100), Bottom: Kidō/Reiatsu (100), Bottom Left: Intelligence (100), Top Left: Physical Strength (60). *Total: 560/600.*


So I'm guessing you don't see Offense there, right?


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> So I'm guessing you don't see Offense there, right?



Im talking about Physical Strength  a parameter where Yamamoto surpases Soi Fong, yet she is ranked 40 points higher.

Think now, slowly, why that is.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Still better than yours when using Kubo's love for appearing behind people as a speed feat because technically, Soifon appeared behind Yoruichi. Guess that's not a feat though. I won't uh... bother you anymore.


I'll ignore the transparent attempt at deflection, I suppose.

As well as, for example, the part where Zaraki and Aizen are equals in might when the former has had extended clashes with the fifth espada.

And Aizen neutralizing and overpowering Komamura's bankai.

And Zaraki getting his teeth kicked in by a Royd that Yama murdered.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Someone really need to stop


----------



## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

Probably gonna lock this soon seeing as its not really going anywhere.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Keep it open.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Im talking about Physical Strength  a parameter where Yamamoto surpases Soi Fong, yet she is ranked 40 points higher.
> 
> Think now, slowly, why that is.


Because Yama is an old fucking man. Physical strength has two meanings, it doesn't mean lifting or impactful strength every time, it could also mean stamina, and in this case does.



Regicide said:


> I'll ignore the transparent attempt at deflection, I suppose.
> 
> As well as, for example, the part where Zaraki and Aizen are equals in might when the former has had extended clashes with the fifth espada.
> 
> ...


Of course you will.

As soon as he used "two hands" the Fifth Espada dies, and Zaraki is known for fucking around. But OK.

Aizen has a 100 in Offense, well shit it means he CAN CONTEND WITH KOMAMURA, HOLY SHIT!

I don't even think his eyepatch was off. *Thumbs up.*


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Keep it open.


Yeah show everyone your lack of understanding for Bleach more. That'll show them.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Wait.....What ? 
How physical strength can also means stamina ?


----------



## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Keep it open.



Regi wants to watch the world burn.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Because Yama is an old fucking man. Physical strength has two meanings, it doesn't mean lifting or impactful strength every time, it could also mean stamina, and in this case does.



Is English your first language?


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Akira1993 said:


> Wait.....What ?
> How physical strength can also means stamina ?


Offense is Striking Power, Physical Strength is Stamina.


体力
Tairyoku


In what I showed it even called it "Physical Fitness" which uses the same Kanji as Tairyoku.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Is English your first language?


What does that have to do with you being wrong?


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Offense is Striking Power, Physical Strength is Stamina.
> 
> 
> 体力
> ...


Stamina is the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort. In order words, it's endurance.
Physical *strength *is self-explanatory, but in no way it correlates with stamina.
All your links are against that, I wonder if you realized that ?


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> What does that have to do with you being wrong?



The translation is physical strength, how you are making the decision that it means stamina is absurd.

Aizen has 80 in that stat yet he is at the limit of his shinigami abilities for example, Soi Fong has a 100 even thoug she is one of the few characters that we have seen getting out of endurance.


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> As soon as he used "two hands" the Fifth Espada dies, and Zaraki is known for fucking around. But OK.


Zaraki would have been dicing Nnoitra with or without kendo were he supposedly Aizen's equal in this area.

Let alone Zaraki being Yama's equal.


Gomu said:


> Aizen has a 100 in Offense, well shit it means he CAN CONTEND WITH KOMAMURA, HOLY SHIT!


If your idea of contending is one side having his weapon shattered in a single clash and his arm lopped off in the same swing, sure.


Gomu said:


> I don't even think his eyepatch was off. *Thumbs up.*


We see the eye that he wears it on and it's not there.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Stamina doesn't even means " tairyoku " in Japanese. Far from that.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Akira1993 said:


> Stamina is the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort. In order words, it's endurance.
> Physical *strength *is self-explanatory, but in no way it correlates with stamina.
> All your links are against that, I wonder if you realized that ?


Oh yes, miss the part where Physical Fitness also shows as Tairyoku and in the same kanji, that will show me. 



Offense = Brute force.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Oh yes, miss the part where Physical Fitness also shows as Tairyoku and in the same kanji, that will show me.
> 
> 
> 
> Offense = Brute force.


??????
What are you trying to say exactly ?


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Zaraki would have been dicing Nnoitra with or without kendo were he supposedly Aizen's equal in this area.
> 
> Let alone Zaraki being Yama's equal.
> If your idea of contending is one side having his weapon shattered in a single clash and his arm lopped off in the same swing, sure.
> We see the eye that he wears it on and it's not there.


Ummmm nah that's not how Zaraki has ever worked, keep pretending you're the "Master of Bleach" though, don't even understand that Reiatsu is different from Reiryoku and that having a larger capacity of Reiryoku doesn't mean you're stronger. You'll get one, one day.

Except he's not his equal, he also tons of experience, doesn't mean he can't match swords with him, just means Yama has a lot more experience and is called one of the strongest swordsmen with one of the more dangerous Zanpaktou.

We all have different perspectives.

Nah we don't. Because there's a small shade on his eyes. Looks like an eyepatch to me because Zaraki is known to be careless as in, in many of his fights he's careless. Again, the Master of Bleach is you yet you know nothing about its characters.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Akira1993 said:


> ??????
> What are you trying to say exactly ?


That Physical Fitness means stamina and not sheer strength. But I'm done with that argument, if you can't figure it out I'm not coddling you.

Offense obviously means what it means, if you think that Physical Strength is Strength in this context and I just showed you the kanji showing Physical Strength and Physical Fitness, I don't need to say anything else.

So that's the last from me on that.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Offense obviously means what it means, if you think that Physical Strength is Strength in this context and I just showed you the kanji showing Physical Strength and Physical Fitness, I don't need to say anything else.
> 
> So that's the last from me on that.



Offense takes into account all the attacks, including the Zanpakuto ones, Physical Strength is just that. Otherwise Yamamoto wouldn't have 100 in movility.

Thats why Unohana has 90 and Aizen has 80.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> That Physical Fitness means stamina and not sheer strength. But I'm done with that argument, if you can't figure it out I'm not coddling you.
> 
> Offense obviously means what it means, if you think that Physical Strength is Strength in this context and I just showed you the kanji showing Physical Strength and Physical Fitness, I don't need to say anything else.
> 
> So that's the last from me on that.


Dude, you are trying way too hard.
Physical fitness doesn't mean stamina, open any dictionary book man, that is not that difficult.
I can't figure out a nonsense indeed, same like black color means white in reality, you see the nonsense parallel here ?
Show me the kanji of stamina in Japanese, and yes, physical strength = physical fitness are more or less the same in Japanese, it is a vocabulary magic called *synonym.*
You can't prove in any way that physical strength = stamina in Japanese, Chinese, Africanese lol.
I will use* your own link* to put this reality deep down in your cranium : 
Where you see the shadow of " stamina " here ?


----------



## Regicide (Feb 4, 2017)

I'm just going to ignore the well being poisoned here.


Gomu said:


> Ummmm nah that's not how Zaraki has ever worked


Giriko is rolling in his grave right about now.


Gomu said:


> Except he's not his equal, he also tons of experience, doesn't mean he can't match swords with him, just means Yama has a lot more experience and is called one of the strongest swordsmen with one of the more dangerous Zanpaktou.


This is an irrelevant tangent, considering the comment was in reference to offensive power


Gomu said:


> We all have different perspectives.


Perspective can't change the fact that someone, in a single exchange, isn't going to easily overpower his opponent when the two of them are peers.


Gomu said:


> Nah we don't. Because there's a small shade on his eyes. Looks like an eyepatch to me


If anyone else sees an eyepatch here, do please stand up.

For reference.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Akira1993 said:


> Dude, you are trying way too hard.
> Physical fitness doesn't mean stamina, open any dictionary book man, that is not that difficult.
> I can't figure out a nonsense indeed, same like black color means white in reality, you see the nonsense parallel here ?
> Show me the kanji of stamina in Japanese, and yes, physical strength = physical fitness are more or less the same in Japanese, it is a vocabulary magic called *synonym.*
> ...


Still missing that Physical fitness = Tairyoku, same kanji too? OK. I'm done with this for good. It's a waste of time.

Chikara = Power, can also mean "Vigour, Capability, Energy, and Stress" all things that mean stamina. But yeah. No longer replying to you on that.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Regicide said:


> I'm just going to ignore the well being poisoned here.
> Giriko is rolling in his grave right about now.
> This is an irrelevant tangent, considering the comment was in reference to offensive power
> Perspective can't change the fact that someone, in a single exchange, isn't going to easily overpower his opponent when the two of them are peers.
> ...


Good for you. All the cookies, maybe an ice cream for your efforts if I gave a damn.

You mean one instance compared to other instances where he stated he held back in battles right? That's what you're saying. The only battle that matters is that single fight compared to all the times Zaraki kept his bells and his eyepatch on and stated "I want to enjoy my fighting". But that's what you do person who thinks Reiryoku and Reiatsu are the same. Use a single instance that fits your side of the story instead of multiples.


Can you prove that Kenpachi going all out can't match blades with Yama-jii in his base or are you just trying to make yourself seem smarter than you actually are. I'm thinking it's the latter.

Oh shit, I was wrong. Oh man... Whatever shall I do. I'm sorry Regicide, you're right. Oh see how easy it is to say you're wrong. Maybe you should try it? It'd be better for you, a weight off those old shoulders. You know with that comment about Reiatsu being Reiryoku and it dictating a persons power, and not the fact that you need to learn how to control your power so that it can be used well in battle, which is what Reiatsu is. Just saying, good loose weights and arms, I can actually smile and not have a stick up my ass or try to catch my breathe from being wrong but still holding it under water. But yes I admit for being wrong because I thought he still had the eyepatch on, sue me then?


----------



## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Zaraki didn't hold back against Tesla either and its factual that Nnoitra was stronger than him hence Kenpachi resorting to Kendo.

See Aizen? Wouldn't bother with that shit and instead would decimate Nnotira with blistering ease.


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Zaraki didn't hold back against Tesla either and its factual that Nnoitra was stronger than him hence Kenpachi resorting to Kendo.
> 
> See Aizen? Wouldn't bother with that shit and instead would decimate Nnotira with blistering ease.


Nnoitra commented he had the "strongest Hierro" though. That means he had the toughest defenses of any character in the Espada, so... 

Except Aizen commented on his potential in the Novel, and Byakuya and him weren't even there.


----------



## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

So what? Nnoitra wasn't beating on Zaraki because he was durable, he straight up overpowered him with brute strength and multiple arms.



Gomu said:


> Except Aizen commented on his potential in the Novel


>Irrelevant tangent
>Potential being the key word
>Non-canon novel


----------



## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Sablés said:


> So what? Nnoitra wasn't beating on Zaraki because he was durable, he straight up overpowered him with brute strength and multiple arms.
> 
> 
> >Irrelevant tangent
> ...


Good for him. Still comments on having the strongest skin. you act as though Aizen had extreme durability or some shit.

Cool.
Whatever.
And yet his potential was unlocked.


----------



## Sablés (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> you act as though Aizen had extreme durability or some shit.



Uh yeah, he kinda does. Its like you're not aware that stats are modified by spiritual power. For someone who keeps yapping about reiryoku and reiatsu, I would think you'd know this.

But I really wonder

What the fuuuuuck does Aizen's durability relative to Nnoitra's matter in a strength contest?



Gomu said:


> Cool.
> Whatever.



Okay see

You're admitting you've got this wrong but I don't think actually understand what it means. Same with Regi's posts.

It means your comparisons or whatever don't fly and the stats make no damn sense when used in the context you've suggested.



> And yet his potential was unlocked.



In a completely separate way and in varying degrees, sure.

Have no fucking clue what any of this has to do with Pre-TS Zaraki's standing though.


----------



## Akira1993 (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Still missing that Physical fitness = Tairyoku, same kanji too? OK. I'm done with this for good. It's a waste of time.
> 
> Chikara = Power, can also mean "Vigour, Capability, Energy, and Stress" all things that mean stamina. But yeah. No longer replying to you on that.


It seems that you are trying to avoid the obvious in purpose, I told you to show me the kanji of " stamina ".
I know that physical fitness = tairyoku.
You are clearly in denial with the meaning of those words.
Well, as I told you already, there isn't the shadow of " stamina " in your own link, really funny.
So yeah, conclusion, it means stamina *in your head and imagination.*


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## Xhominid (Feb 4, 2017)

Waka PLEASE keep this open, this is honestly the best time I have had reading all of this.

You are using a NON-CANON Novel that made no real sense with the universe at all(seriously a constant release BANKAI?) to justify Kenpachi being on Aizen's level...that's not how that works.

Kenpachi does have potential to still be and become due to how his arc ultimately ends(he has Bankai but now he has to master it) but even with that, I cannot say at all that he's Aizen or Yamamoto level(ESPECIALLY Yamamoto level, even Aizen isn't on Yama's level as he said specifically why he needed to remove his Shikai and Yama didn't look anymore afraid trying to go hand to hand against him).

Soi Fon's speed is obviously for shits and giggles considering Yourichi pretty much made her her bitch during their scuffle while she was still hella RUSTY. Barragan was able to outspeed her and Kirinji basically made her look like a sloth. And by simple deduction, the high tiers would almost especially outspeed her.

And finally, the databook stats should be taken with a grain of salt for some of the entries for obvious reasons. Why would Kubo commission Physical Strength with Stamina combined with it? That doesn't even make sense, especially with the strength we've seen from him in the rest of his fights. We know it's the same thing with Aizen and Gin too since their stats don't make sense with what they have done. The only person we know the databook got right is Unohana and that was most definitely Kubo's way of telling people she is a powerhouse well before the final arc happened(wish that went better than what we got on her...thanks Kubo...that's the one unforgivable sin I'll give you).

I'm sorry to say but you trying so desperately to put Cracker on some high tier shit in the Bleach universe is just laughable. Hell, if I remember how Luffy defeated Cracker, I don't even think he should be able to pass Harribel since shouldn't her water ruin his Biscuit powers? Yeah Luffy had to eat them too, but I wouldn't say that enough extreme water pressure wouldn't fuck up their day wouldn't it?


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

Well, you could make a strong case for Cracker, Doflamingo, Sabo, and G4 Luffy getting scaled to Prime Chinjao. 

I mean, nothing, and I mean nothing ever states or proves Don Chinjao really was a "Top Tier" in the OP. However I digress, and it will piss several Bleach fans off. Plus Gomu, and White Hawk will jump in this discussion, and they will only hurt my point because they're so greedy for feats.

However, the point still stands, there is enough evidence.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Uh yeah, he kinda does. Its like you're not aware that stats are modified by spiritual power. For someone who keeps yapping about reiryoku and reiatsu, I would think you'd know this.
> 
> But I really wonder
> 
> What the fuuuuuck does Aizen's durability relative to Nnoitra's matter in a strength contest?


But that's acute spiritual control, Hierro isn't a manipulation of reiatsu, it's their actual skin. So, yeah if you're arguing semantics, you're right. Aizen has excellent control over his spirtual pressure it's why he can do such high level spells effortlessly. You were just yapping about how Nnoitra beating the shit out of Zaraki was relevant when he has one of the strongest skins of the Espada. Zaraki takes attacks that literally stick through his body and laughs it off, this shouldn't even be a thing.



Sablés said:


> Okay see
> 
> You're admitting you've got this wrong but I don't think actually understand what it means. Same with Regi's posts.
> 
> It means your comparisons or whatever don't fly and the stats make no damn sense when used in the context you've suggested.



Nah, it means if you don't listen why should I continuously say the same thing. You only hear what you want to hear, I got tired of saying the same thing. I already just admitted I was wrong about something, but it wasn't this. Sorry.



Sablés said:


> In a completely separate way and in varying degrees, sure.
> 
> Have no fucking clue what any of this has to do with Pre-TS Zaraki's standing though.


Btw, what makes the Novel non-canon?


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

Unless usually directly stated or written by the author, it's non canon, or at worst, semi canon. 

Data Books/ Timelines written by the author = Semi Canon.

Novels- Non Canon.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Waka PLEASE keep this open, this is honestly the best time I have had reading all of this.


At least you had fun, right?


Xhominid said:


> You are using a NON-CANON Novel that made no real sense with the universe at all(seriously a constant release BANKAI?) to justify Kenpachi being on Aizen's level...that's not how that works.


So you mean theories then, theories make no sense, because people can't theorize. OK.


Xhominid said:


> Soi Fon's speed is obviously for shits and giggles considering Yourichi pretty much made her her bitch during their scuffle while she was still hella RUSTY. Barragan was able to outspeed her and Kirinji basically made her look like a sloth. And by simple deduction, the high tiers would almost especially outspeed her.


I said of the captains, not the royal guard though, but OK. And i was also talking about in relation to the first half, which you also missed. May want to go back and re-read.


Xhominid said:


> And finally, the databook stats should be taken with a grain of salt for some of the entries for obvious reasons. Why would Kubo commission Physical Strength with Stamina combined with it? That doesn't even make sense, especially with the strength we've seen from him in the rest of his fights. We know it's the same thing with Aizen and Gin too since their stats don't make sense with what they have done. The only person we know the databook got right is Unohana and that was most definitely Kubo's way of telling people she is a powerhouse well before the final arc happened(wish that went better than what we got on her...thanks Kubo...that's the one unforgivable sin I'll give you).


Why would Tite Kubo make Ichigo 1/20th of everything. Why would he make characters who are slower than other characters appear faster than they actually are. Why would the character who outsped her un-released not be able to completely blitz her after releasing (as Resurrections boost physical attributes and heal wounds). Why would Tite Kubo make a horrible ending in my opinion. I don't know. He just does it. I already showed Physical Strength (Tairyoku) can also be Physical Fitness (Tairyoku). No one would be talking shit if Physical Fitness was there before Physical Strength, they both have the same kanji and as always things can be translated from japanese in many different ways. You're also not looking at the fact that he made "Offense" and "Defense".


Xhominid said:


> I'm sorry to say but you trying so desperately to put Cracker on some high tier shit in the Bleach universe is just laughable. Hell, if I remember how Luffy defeated Cracker, I don't even think he should be able to pass Harribel since shouldn't her water ruin his Biscuit powers? Yeah Luffy had to eat them too, but I wouldn't say that enough extreme water pressure wouldn't fuck up their day wouldn't it?


I mean Cracker can already beat most of Part 1 with his shitty powerset. He already outspeeds them so no one is touching him either. The only reason why Barragan would win is because of his ability and nothing else.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Well, you could make a strong case for Cracker, Doflamingo, Sabo, and G4 Luffy getting scaled to Prime Chinjao.
> 
> I mean, nothing, and I mean nothing ever states or proves Don Chinjao really was a "Top Tier" in the OP. However I digress, and it will piss several Bleach fans off. Plus Gomu, and White Hawk will jump in this discussion, and they will only hurt my point because they're so greedy for feats.
> 
> However, the point still stands, there is enough evidence.


I have no problem screaming to the roof tops, this shit is a barrel of laughs for me.



B Rabbit said:


> Unless usually directly stated or written by the author, it's non canon, or at worst, semi canon.
> 
> Data Books/ Timelines written by the author = Semi Canon.
> 
> Novels- Non Canon.


Sorry B you got that turned around. If the author has anything to do with the work such as outlaying the story, it's canon in my book. Maybe not yours.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

Unless it contradicts the main series in question.

Which is why One Piece: Gold, and Strong World will never be, but Z has a good possibility.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

Anything not part of the Manga has to stated by the author to be part of the official storyline, or the events at least has to be referenced in the Manga. That's why the last and the boruto movie are canon (until the latter got ret conned by the new manga anyway.)

One piece strong world also arguably qualifies.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

^ Wrong. 

Strong World contradicts the manga. You are thinking about Z.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Unless it contradicts the main series in question.
> 
> Which is why One Piece: Gold, and Strong World will never be, but Z has a good possibility.


Except Z was stated to be non-canon by Oda, Strong World (the 0 Chapter) is also canon not the movie, I wish Gold was canon. *Sighs happily.*

Aizen wa sonly theorizing about the potential of Zaraki because he'd never used a shikai or bankai before thus saying his potential was uber high. He was even a Potential War Power in Part 2. So... yeah.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

Wrong again. 

Oda intended for Strong World to be canon, but couldn't get the series to line up. 

Oda didn't intend for Z to be canon, but wrote a timeline to get it to fit because he loved it.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

I forget, how does strong world contradict the Manga?

And what makes Z more likely to be canon? Oda said it doesn't fit anywhere in the actual storyn iirc.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Wrong again.
> 
> Oda intended for Strong World to be canon, but couldn't get the series to line up.
> 
> Oda didn't intend for Z to be canon, but wrote a timeline to get it to fit because he loved it.


I wasn't saying... *Stops*

Alright B.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

However, Strong World can be canon too if a SH just simply mentions Shiki. 

Yeah ODa stopped with Film Gold.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> I forget, how does strong world contradict the Manga?
> 
> And what makes Z more likely to be canon? Oda said it doesn't fit anywhere in the actual storyn iirc.


Zoro was hurt from the fight with Kuma, it's stated to be Luffy's last adventure as a 17 year old.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

Nothing really stops either from being canon. 

Oda wrote both, and went back and forth on both being canon, because for the sole reason he didn't want manga readers to feel left out. 

However he wrote both, produced both, wrote a manga chapter for one, and a canon timeline for the other. 

However Zoro, is the main issue for Strong World. It takes place after his battle with Kuma. Zoro in the manga, simply just fighting a few fodder, reopens his wounds. Zoro having a battle with Indigo. Shiki's right hand man, and Shiki himself. Is perfectly fine, and doesn't even note if he has a wound.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

Oda didn't really want Z to be canon, because of how Strong World pan out. 

However he liked the marine lore so much he wrote a timeline, for it that affects, and go into the backstory of canon characters. He event wrote it in a way that the seven shichibukai would be able to bring his story to the main timeline. Weevil.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Zoro was hurt from the fight with Kuma, it's stated to be Luffy's last adventure as a 17 year old.



To be fair, the last starts with naruto trying to use the kb despite the fact that he shouldn'the even know it exists for several years, and we still call the last canon, so the zero thing can just be seen as a plot hole.

Also I thought Oda said it was the straw hats last adv before the time skip (effectively being an acknowledgment of being tied to the actual story.)

Anyone have an actual link to the interview?


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> To be fair, the last starts with naruto trying to use the kb despite the fact that he shouldn'the even know it exists for several years, and we still call the last canon, so the zero thing can just be seen as a plot hole.
> 
> Also I thought Oda said it was the straw hats last adv before the time skip (effectively being an acknowledgment of being tied to the actual story.)
> 
> Anyone have an actual link to the interview?


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## Xhominid (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> At least you had fun, right?



Pretty much, not hard to have fun reading all of this?



Gomu said:


> So you mean theories then, theories make no sense, because people can't theorize. OK.



No, Kubo specifically specified what he was talking about. There's no theory about it.



Gomu said:


> I said of the captains, not the royal guard though, but OK. And i was also talking about in relation to the first half, which you also missed. May want to go back and re-read.



Except even relation of the Captains, Soi-Fon hasn't shown anything that makes her faster than Old Guard(Shunsui, Ukitake by extension, Unohana by further extension and Yamamoto so yeah, that falls flat.



Gomu said:


> Why would Tite Kubo make Ichigo 1/20th of everything. Why would he make characters who are slower than other characters appear faster than they actually are. Why would the character who outsped her un-released not be able to completely blitz her after releasing (as Resurrections boost physical attributes and heal wounds). Why would Tite Kubo make a horrible ending in my opinion. I don't know. He just does it. I already showed Physical Strength (Tairyoku) can also be Physical Fitness (Tairyoku). No one would be talking shit if Physical Fitness was there before Physical Strength, they both have the same kanji and as always things can be translated from japanese in many different ways. You're also not looking at the fact that he made "Offense" and "Defense".



You are trying to sound intelligent and failing miserably...
Authors fall into that problem all the time, it's not anything new you know.



Gomu said:


> I mean Cracker can already beat most of Part 1 with his shitty powerset. He already outspeeds them so no one is touching him either. The only reason why Barragan would win is because of his ability and nothing else.



So him being able to defeat the villains and Strawhats Pre-Timeskip means he can take out a good chunk of the Bleach cast? That's not a good reason at all.


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## Blαck (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Except Z was stated to be non-canon by Oda, Strong World (the 0 Chapter) is also canon not the movie, *I wish Gold was canon*. *Sighs happily.*
> .


It could've been, if it wasn't for sanji and co

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Pretty much, not hard to have fun reading all of this?


Glad ya did. I did too.


Xhominid said:


> No, Kubo specifically specified what he was talking about. There's no theory about it.


The theory on Zaraki's hidden potential which Kubo goes on to show in part 2?


Xhominid said:


> Except even relation of the Captains, Soi-Fon hasn't shown anything that makes her faster than Old Guard(Shunsui, Ukitake by extension, Unohana by further extension and Yamamoto so yeah, that falls flat.


But I was talking about the Gotei 13 Pre-Skip, had nothing to do with the Royal Guard.


Xhominid said:


> You are trying to sound intelligent and failing miserably...
> Authors fall into that problem all the time, it's not anything new you know.


It had nothing to do with intelligence, that's just all the shit he did.


Xhominid said:


> So him being able to defeat the villains and Strawhats Pre-Timeskip means he can take out a good chunk of the Bleach cast? That's not a good reason at all.


Unless you're implying that G4 Luffy is shit compared to most of Bleach which he beats in physical traits, yeah. Bleach is based more on its hax. Hax is what holds it together.


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## Jackalinthebox (Feb 4, 2017)

Doesn't Luffy fight on par with Shiki in Strong World?


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Doesn't Luffy fight on par with Shiki in Strong World?


Not really. Shiki abuses the fuck out of his powers and constantly treats Luffy like a piece of shit.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 4, 2017)

Luffy only beats him because of pis really.

Reactions: Like 1


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

Same with Z.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Luffy only beats him because of pis really.


But one technique in the Post Skip does come out of it maybe as a bit of a reminder.


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Same with Z.


Z was sick. But the fight was awesome. Two men just fucking each other up in a fist fight. No real need for techniques, they just wanted to smash each others faces in.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 4, 2017)

TBF when both movies came out. They were the first of their kind. Boruto and Battle of the Gods came after. So the canon debate was more hot button.


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## Jackalinthebox (Feb 4, 2017)

So is Shiki significantly weaker in the movie? Because in the manga he was at least on the same level as the Admirals; meaning he would casually oneshot pre-timeskip Luffy. 

In other words, even if the movie was canon his feats vs Shiki would be outliers assuming he wasn't severely weakened


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So is Shiki significantly weaker in the movie? Because in the manga he was at least on the same level as the Admirals; meaning he would casually oneshot pre-timeskip Luffy.
> 
> In other words, even if the movie was canon his feats vs Shiki would be outliers assuming he wasn't severely weakened


Of course he was.


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## Xhominid (Feb 4, 2017)

Gomu said:


> The theory on Zaraki's hidden potential which Kubo goes on to show in part 2?



1. There's no Part 2 in Bleach, quit using that term like if this was Naruto and Shippuden. There's Pre-Timeskip and Post Time Skip.

2. I just said he mentioned Zaraki's potential, but even how that happened in the novel is completely at odds with how Kubo showed it so yeah.



Gomu said:


> But I was talking about the Gotei 13 Pre-Skip, had nothing to do with the Royal Guard.



And you aren't contending with what I said... or you honestly ignored when I specified Old Guard as Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana and Yamamoto in that very post you quoted?)



Gomu said:


> It had nothing to do with intelligence, that's just all the shit he did.



Which again can be placed against all content creators in general, this is nothing new.



Gomu said:


> Unless you're implying that G4 Luffy is shit compared to most of Bleach which he beats in physical traits, yeah. Bleach is based more on its hax. Hax is what holds it together.



You was specifically talking about Part 1 for the sake of One Piece, most of the characters shown Pre-Timeskip wouldn't be able to defeat a Lieutenant, let alone a Captain. And again, anyone who scales to Shikai Kenpachi is Island Level, G4 Luffy atm is stated to be City Level atm, Cracker is not stronger than the high tiers of Bleach, NO ONE atm is stronger than the High Tiers of Bleach outside of Whitebeard and possibly the Admirals(mainly Akainu).


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## Gomu (Feb 4, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> 1. There's no Part 2 in Bleach, quit using that term like if this was Naruto and Shippuden. There's Pre-Timeskip and Post Time Skip.
> 
> 2. I just said he mentioned Zaraki's potential, but even how that happened in the novel is completely at odds with how Kubo showed it so yeah.


1.If a series is not known for constant time skips in a story, I call them Parts, sue me. 

2. Doesn't matter to me, it was an acknowledgement of his potential.



Xhominid said:


> And you aren't contending with what I said... or you honestly ignored when I specified Old Guard as Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana and Yamamoto in that very post you quoted?)


Oh I thought you meant the Royal Guard, been doing this all day so meh.

Anyway, they are the most skilled characters, not the strongest or the fastest. Except Unohana and Yamamoto as she was the Kenpachi before Kenny.



Xhominid said:


> Which again can be placed against all content creators in general, this is nothing new.


OK, and? I used the stats, you used feats, both were made by Kubo, so I don't care particularly too much since he often fucks up his own scaling.



Xhominid said:


> You was specifically talking about Part 1 for the sake of One Piece, most of the characters shown Pre-Timeskip wouldn't be able to defeat a Lieutenant, let alone a Captain. And again, anyone who scales to Shikai Kenpachi is Island Level, G4 Luffy atm is stated to be City Level atm, Cracker is not stronger than the high tiers of Bleach, NO ONE atm is stronger than the High Tiers of Bleach outside of Whitebeard and possibly the Admirals(mainly Akainu).


But I never talked about Part 1 One Piece. Again you may want to... go re-read.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 5, 2017)

If G4 is city level it loses to everyone above R2 Ulquiorra.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 5, 2017)

I'm so close to basically bringing up G4 should be = Prime Chinjao it sickens me.

In 2013 we allthought Prime Chinajo was top tier. 4 years later we were badly mistaken.


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## Keishin (Feb 5, 2017)

Not like he split the entire continent anyway.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 5, 2017)

That logic is so tried and retarded it was debunked literally the day the feat came out try again.


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> That logic is so tried and retarded it was debunked literally the day the feat came out try again.


Yeah, but at least it's a good casual feat, Prime Chinjao fought a Prime Garp who stated he busted 8 mountains for training (so that means it was casual), and given that wouldn't we be able to make G4 Mountain Level?


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## LazyWaka (Feb 5, 2017)

Unless we know how big those mountains are it doesn't really mean anything. Also mountain and city level overlap.


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> That logic is so tried and retarded it was debunked literally the day the feat came out try again.


Yeah, but at least it's a good casual feat, Prime Chinjao fought a Prime Garp who stated he busted 8 mountains for training (so that means it was casual), and given that wouldn't we be able to make G4 Mountain Level?


LazyWaka said:


> Unless we know how big those mountains are it doesn't really mean anything. Also mountain and city level overlap.


Considering Chinjao can carve out an entire continent in a single swing with his head, Garp wouldn't be using puny as shit mountains to go against a head that can split a continent in two without their being some size. And we've seen characters like Law who used a space-cut to lift mountains (which people hate to forget, though the space is being cut, the fact that it can lift the mountains at all is feat in itself, meaning it acts not only as a basic slash swing but also a swing of space and why it can be mitigated by Haki).

But Prime Garp is someone who fought characters like Roger and stalemated him. He doesn't do half-assed shit.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 5, 2017)

By that logic then why the fuck would we scale it to Luffy?

You cant say



> Prime Chinjao fought a Prime Garp who stated he busted 8 mountains for training (so that means it was casual), and given that wouldn't we be able to make G4 Mountain Level?



And then turn right around and argue



> Considering Chinjao can carve out an entire continent in a single swing with his head, Garp wouldn't be using puny as shit mountains to go against a head that can split a continent in two without their being some size.
> 
> But Prime Garp is someone who fought characters like Roger and stalemated him. He doesn't do half-assed shit.


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> By that logic then why the fuck would we scale it to Luffy?
> 
> You cant say
> 
> ...


Because it would mean characters DO have the ability to Mountain Bust and again it was casual training. We did the same thing for the Energy it would take to cause an entire island to stop its weather with Ace. Luffy is superior to G2/G3 and is on par with Doffy. All you would need to do is take the power it takes to destroy a mountain and give it to them.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 5, 2017)

Which again, depends on the mountain. The most you can do is find the smallest landmass in the series that's been referred to as a mountain (Kinda like what I did when calcing Jiraiya's "mountain busting" Chou Oodama Rasengan) and calc how much it would take to pulp it.


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Which again, depends on the mountain. The most you can do is find the smallest landmass in the series that's been referred to as a mountain (Kinda like what I did when calcing Jiraiya's "mountain busting" Chou Oodama Rasengan) and calc how much it would take to pulp it.


But it was 8 VARIABLE mountains. All you would need to do is take the average size of a mountain and he talks as if he completely Obliterated the mountains, he didn't just carve a hole into them.


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## Keishin (Feb 5, 2017)

Gomu said:


> Because it would mean characters DO have the ability to Mountain Bust and again it was casual training. We did the same thing for the Energy it would take to cause an entire island to stop its weather with Ace. Luffy is superior to G2/G3 and is on par with Doffy. All you would need to do is take the power it takes to destroy a mountain and give it to them.


Sure Luffy can destroy mountains but its how fast he does it that ultimately matters


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Sure Luffy can destroy mountains but its how fast he does it that ultimately matters


Notice I'm talking about G4 Luffy, this isn't base, if anyone tries to say "Oh I'm getting Luffy in his base a power up", they would be wrong and idiots. 

The way he cracks that land-mass in Dressrossa and the fact that calculators constantly get high numbers in the continent levels means that yes, G4 can probably break a mountain just as easily. I'm not saying Luffy is Continent Level but giving him only City Level+ in 4th Gear is shitty scaling since he's far stronger than base.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 5, 2017)

When did his dressrosa feat yield continent level results? Last I checked it was island level.

In any case. The lack of visuals doesn't give you the freedom to assume the size of the mountains without a basis. We never do that for any series with the occasional exception for those that take place on rl earth (like we sometimes do with inuyasha) provided we know their location.


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> When did his dressrosa feat yield continent level results? Last I checked it was island level.


It was yielding Petatons.


LazyWaka said:


> In any case. The lack of visuals doesn't give you the freedom to assume the size of the mountains without a basis. We never do that for any series with the occasional exception for those that take place on rl earth (like we sometimes do with inuyasha) provided we know their location.


I just find it very hard to believe Garp wouldn't bust an actual Mountain when he is a Top Tier with Island Busting attacks (at least) and could fight Prime Chinjao's headbutt.


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## LazyWaka (Feb 5, 2017)

Could have sworn it was gigatons. Got a link?


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

I got the info from here. -


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## LazyWaka (Feb 5, 2017)

Ok so it was talking someone from off forums. I was talking about GMS G4 calc that was gigatons.


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Ok so it was talking someone from off forums. I was talking about GMS G4 calc that was gigatons.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh yep, that's what it's considered it takes away from the fact that Top tiers are Island Busters. Do we still use Country Busting Here or...


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## Keishin (Feb 5, 2017)

There's no way this is continental it's practically just lifting a town/mountain in the air.


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## Gomu (Feb 5, 2017)

Keishin said:


> There's no way this is continental it's practically just lifting a town/mountain in the air.


That's not what I was talking about, I mean Top Tiers being Country Busting. And yes you're right, it's lifting an entire slab in the air after having all of the energy transferred into Doflamingo's defense and Doflamingo himself, and that was the result of it performing that blow. It lifted it after cracking those two slabs and the force and weight completely sent the two slabs away from one another.


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## Blade (Feb 5, 2017)

Cracker stomps any Espada except from Respira koon

as from You'reWhack koon's team

the likes of Bambietta or even Royd just oneshot him


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## Blade (Feb 5, 2017)

Cracker though is overall an average mid/high tier, he is a small fry compared to the high tiers and top tiers of Clorox


he loses from at least 15+ characters


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## Zern227 (Feb 6, 2017)

Actually Strong World has a better chance of being canon than Z would. It actually has a space to fit within the know timeline. Strong World can fit between Post Water 7 and Saboady Archipelago. Whereas Film Z, actually can't fit anywhere and actuallly replaces the scene where the Straw Hats came out of the ocean.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 6, 2017)

That was literally address on the last pages.


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