# Can 7th Gated Gai solo the Gokage?



## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2015)

Just wondering, if you need conditions:

Distance: 20 meters
Location: Gokage vs Madara
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: 8th Gate

Who wins?


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## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



No, he can't.


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

Gai gets fodderstompped extreme low difficult as far as I am concerned. 


Hell, I don't think he can even defeat A by himself. 
Even Tsunade would solo him with her regenerating abilities!


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Gai gets fodderstompped extreme low difficult as far as I am concerned.
> 
> 
> *Hell, I don't think he can even defeat A by himself.
> Even Tsunade would solo him with her regenerating abilities! *


d

He fought Edo Madara and pushed him into the corner far better than Gokage did together and you think Tsunade and Ay could solo him on their own?

I reread the bold and then


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## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2015)

I think Gai can defeat any of them in a 1 on 1. But the 5 of them is tooooooooo much.


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## Jad (Jul 17, 2015)

Hirudora's travel time is very fast and it's expansion is damn near instant. Ei won't even know that Hirudora explodes based on his lack of knowledge. He might just Dodge the tiger head only. The others have to get hit by Hirudora. They have no prep against 7th Gated Gai. Tsunade no Byakugo. Gaara hasn't prepped to control the desert sand, Onoki and Mei have no defense to Hirudora period.

I think it's a safe bet Gai will release Hirudora the moment he knows his up against 5 kage, being outnumbered and all.


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

they absolutely murder him 

back pack onoki or amped jinton and he dies

he isnt so fast as to kill all 5 before any one or 2 of them can actually react 

so he dies miserably

also his basic 7th gate punch got no feats to suggest they are strong enough to knock out any kage. he needs hirudora or Mp to pose a threat to any of them 

besides that. they got nothign to worry about


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> d
> 
> He fought Edo Madara and pushed him into the corner far better than Gokage did together and you think Tsunade and Ay could solo him on their own?
> 
> I reread the bold and then



lol, he was with the Hachibi and BM Naruto. In addition, the Gokage fought madara for HOURS, and they FORCED him to use PS TWICE! 

Where did you see Madara using PS, or dropping meteors or using 25 clones with V3 Susanoo agains Gai?


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## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2015)

Well, if we go technical and Gai explodes Hirudora in the middle of the unprepped kages, he might .


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Well, if we go technical and Gai explodes Hirudora in the middle of the unprepped kages, he might .



And what will that do? 
Base A and Tsunade literally survived a speed of light teleportation that normally will turn people's body apart. Gai's attack barely did any physical damage to Kisame's body.


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## Jad (Jul 17, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Well, if we go technical and Gai explodes Hirudora in the middle of the unprepped kages, he might .



I can't think of a way he loses via instant usage of Hirudora. He might as well be using Hirudora one on one against each of the kage in separate matches if you think of it like that.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, he was with the Hachibi and BM Naruto. In addition, the Gokage fought madara for HOURS, and they FORCED him to use PS TWICE!
> 
> Where did you see Madara using PS, or dropping meteors or using 25 clones with V3 Susanoo agains Gai?



He blitz Pre-Shinju Madara w/7th Gate, you're whole argument is garbage.

[2]


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He blitz Pre-Shinju Madara w/7th Gate, you're whole argument is garbage.
> 
> [2]



No, but yours sure is. Why? Because Madara did counter his attack, and absolutly destroyed his AT. He was a moment away from killing him had it not been for Lee saving his ass from the Gedu-dama. 

Also, that is more or less like Sasuke's feats against Kakashi as explained many times. 

I don't feel like posting all the pics Dominus tho.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, but yours sure is. Why? Because Madara did counter his attack, and absolutly destroyed his AT. He was a moment away of killing him had it not been for Lee saving his ass from the Gedu-dama.
> 
> Also, that is more or less like Sasuke's feats against Kakashi as explained many times.
> 
> I don't feel like posting all the pics Dominus tho.


Don't worry, I posted the links to the pics, you can see Gai getting in a few hits and pushing Pre-Shinju Madara back...

Gaara: "I Can't protect myself...this movement is human?
Gaara: "I Can't protect myself...this movement is human?
Gaara: "I Can't protect myself...this movement is human?
Gaara: "I Can't protect myself...this movement is human?

But, no you're right, I'm sure Tsunade or Ei would solo him


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## Jad (Jul 17, 2015)

Because you have Gai in 7th Gate, I honestly believe this is like putting a pistol to each Kage's head at match start , with the bullet being Hirudora.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 17, 2015)

no.


/10chara


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

i agree with hussain. we also see genin sasuke exchanging hits with kakashi

doesnt suddenly put genin sasuke on kakashi level


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Don't worry, I posted the links to the pics, you can see Gai getting in a few hits and pushing Pre-Shinju Madara back...
> 
> Gaara: "I Can't protect myself...this movement is human?
> Gaara: "I Can't protect myself...this movement is human?
> ...



Just like how B landed 13 hits on itachi? 
Here's

Also, landing an attack is something, and that attacking being powerful enough to take
that person out is completely different story. 

SM Naruto with Tobirama landed a Rassengan on Obito and effected him
while SM Hashirama failed to do anything to a weaker Obito

Both Madara and Hashirama got destroyed from the crossfire of that battle, yet you don't see people
claiming they are weaker! 


A is physically powerful enough in base to take the hit as he survived the teleportation jutsu. Tsunade is physical powerful and can heal any damage! On the other hand all what Gai has is ONE attack because he is open to get killed!


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## RBL (Jul 17, 2015)

1 vs 1 gai destroys any of the gokage.


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## Mercurial (Jul 17, 2015)

No one here is going to come even close to Gai (8th Gate restricted, obviously, lol) by feats and by portrayal in a 1 vs 1.

Even in 5 vs 1, no one here is doing anything against Hiru Tora's speed and power.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Just like how B landed 11 hits on itachi?
> Here's
> 
> Also, landing an attack is something, and that* attacking being powerful enough to take that person out is completely different story. *
> ...


7th Gated Gai may not have been strong enough to take out Pre-Shinju Madara, but Madara was put solely on the defensive, he couldn't get a shot in. He wasn't half as a serious when he fought the Gokage as to when he fought Gai.



Hussain said:


> A is physically powerful enough in base to take the hit as he survived the teleportation jutsu. Tsunade is physical powerful and can heal any damage! On the other hand all what Gai has is ONE attack because he is open to get killed!


Gated Gai is physically stronger and leagues faster than both of them.

Tsunade would be beaten in the same manner as Shouten Kisame, 7th Gate is not needed for her only 6th.


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

ok 
because incoming hirudora cant be trolled by jinton 

or i guess gai is so fast he kicks their heads off without 5 of them being able to react

the juudara feat is being blown way out of proportion 

his feat with juudara is no different from genin sasuke with kakashi 

or claiming sasuke stood up to bee 7 sword style 

or saying hinata pressured genin neji


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 17, 2015)

Gai one on one will defeat every single one of them, I have a bit of doubt against onoki since he can fly but if he gets in the range, then it is GG. 
I am not sure how will be do against all 5 together.


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

> =Ryuzaki;54006311]7th Gated Gai may not have been strong enough to take out Pre-Shinju Madara, but Madara was put solely on the defensive, he couldn't get a shot in. He wasn't half as a serious when he fought the Gokage as to when he fought Gai.


Madara was doding his attack, and even the anime depicted it that way. 
Here's

If Madara can react and destroy Gai's FASTEST punch (in the 7th Gate) what makes you think he
couldn't do that to slower ones? 

Again the Gokage he used his most powerful jutsus. He did not use any of that when he was facing Gai. 



> Gated Gai is physically stronger and leagues faster than both of them.



Except it's a manga fact that A is faster than him (unless it's the 8th Gate). Gai's attack is not taking them out, period. 

Unless you can prove that Kisame's body is way far superior to A and Tsunade, that Gai's attack will completely erase them from existing. Heck, even madara himself did not take any damage.

If we are going to use your logic, Obito's naked arm is more powerful that Gai's in the 8th Gate
because Obito's arm cut through Madara's chest (a stronger one), when Gai's strongest punch couldn't. lol


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ok
> because incoming hirudora cant be trolled by jinton
> 
> or i guess gai is so fast he kicks their heads off without 5 of them being able to react
> ...




*Spoiler*: __


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

ok i laughed at the effort put into that hussain 
gonna rep u


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## Bonly (Jul 17, 2015)

No, no he can't. Best Gai can do is take out a member or two before being finished off


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## Amol (Jul 17, 2015)

If anyone honestly believe that 7 gated Gai can solo Gokage then he should take a break, plan a holiday somewhere and consult with doctor in meanwhile.
This could be symptoms of Delusion Disorder.
OT : Gai gets his ass kicked .


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## Jad (Jul 17, 2015)

What's the difference between Gai using Hirudora instantly against the unprepped Gokage, and Gai using Hirudora at match start against each of them in separate matches? That's what I want to know.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 17, 2015)

Kakashi pointed out that Gai surpassed the Five Kage with the 8th Gate because he hadn't already done so by unlocking the 7th.

People fixate on Madara moving back when Gai attacked him too much. They never consider that Madara was trying to beat a Kamui to Obito when Minato tried to attack him with Senjutsu, which works on Ten Tails Jinchūriki's (and he wasn't expecting much out of anything less than the 8th gate).

Madara saw Gai throw his fastest punch and then proceeded to interrupt it by bonking him on the head and into the dirt.

He was never backed into a corner.



Wait, you said Edo Madara, too.

He wasn't backed into a corner by Gai either.

Gai, Bee, and Naruto seemingly fought him, and Gai wouldn't have even gotten off Hirudora if Naruto hadn't blocked Madara's first thrust.

Hirudora didn't do anything but send him flying anyway.


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## Tarot (Jul 17, 2015)

Guy gets his ass kicked. Portrayal-wise, there's no way in hell he's gonna beat the Five Kage together. Not to mention his speed is getting way wanked. Ay will be able to react to anything Guy can do in 7th Gate, and Tsunade can tank anything he throws. All 5 together rip him apart.

Part 1 base Naruto managed to land a crippling blow on Kabuto, yet no one their right mind should argue that they're on the same level.


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## ScottofFury (Jul 17, 2015)

Gai takes a page from Lee's book and pulls out 5 kunai in 7th Gate. 

They stand no chance, and if anyone was to react and dodge the attack it would only be the Raikage lol .....

1v1 Gai demolishes him in 7th Gate.


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## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And what will that do?
> Base A and Tsunade literally survived a speed of light teleportation that normally will turn people's body apart. Gai's attack barely did any physical damage to Kisame's body.



Do i need to show you the tiger that hit Kisame, and the tiger that hit Mads? 

It kills Mei, Gaara and Onoki. Gai then finishes off the last two healing. I know Ei won't die by one. I have serious doubts of Tsunade without Byakugo doing so.

No, but on a more serious note, i really lol'ed at the notion of Onoki matching Gai's speed and interrupting Hirudora with Jinton.


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## Rocky (Jul 17, 2015)

I'm surprise to see people think he wins this. It wasn't that long ago that Gai was considered equal to Kakashi until he used the 8th gate, and this was even after the Jubidara feats.

What happened?


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## Icegaze (Jul 17, 2015)

people blowing pushing juudara back out of proportion without noticing this has already been portrayed in the manga several times

for example: genin sasuke vs kakashi


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Madara was doding his attack, and even the anime depicted it that way.
> Here's
> 
> If Madara can react and destroy Gai's FASTEST punch (in the 7th Gate) what makes you think he couldn't do that to slower ones?
> ...


Shinju Madara is a different story, I don't argue that he was stronger than 7th Gated Gai, in fact if he wasn't then we'd never see the 8th Gate. But 7th Gated Gai would have put up more of a fight against Edo Madara than the Gokage did at all whatsoever. 



Hussain said:


> Except it's a manga fact that A is faster than him (unless it's the 8th Gate). Gai's attack is not taking them out, period.
> 
> Unless you can prove that *Kisame's body* is way far superior to A and Tsunade, that Gai's attack will completely erase them from existing. Heck, even madara himself did not take any damage.
> 
> If we are going to use your logic, Obito's naked arm is more powerful that Gai's in the 8th Gate because Obito's arm cut through Madara's chest (a stronger one), when Gai's strongest punch couldn't. lol


How is it manga fact? 6th Gated Gai blitz the shit out of Shouten Kisame, to the point where Kisame couldn't react to his movements at all. The same Kisame that got blitz by the Raikage/Killer Bee. If anything 7th Gated Gai is far faster than the Raikage.

How is Kisame's body not? Tsunade has the weakest durability out of all of the kages, but she makes up for it with her healing prowess, it doesn't mean her damage is any less real. The Raikage is going to be the hardest to put down for him, but he'll eventually get there, but the other kages are going to be broken and battered far quickly. 

Madara wasn't expecting any resistance, in fact he was pretty open and had his guard let down completely.


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## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm surprise to see people think he wins this. It wasn't that long ago that Gai was considered equal to Kakashi until he used the 8th gate, and this was even after the Jubidara feats.
> 
> What happened?



It's because Gai's feats, in my eyes, outclasses Kakashi's to the point that only portrayal (and Kamui) makes them "equals".

And even then, Kakashi has the ability to snipe someone's head off without them noticing. Wether or not Kishi draws that is another thing.

But can he? Yes.

Oh, and no. I don't think he can beat the Gokage.


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## Matty (Jul 17, 2015)

He can't win but He's not getting solo'd by Tsunade or A -.- He can definitely take out a few


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 17, 2015)

Did 7th Gate Gai become a meme that I'm not aware of ? What did I miss ? 

If there is no catch to this, then the answer to the Op is "no." Gai gets prison raped.


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## mylastduchess (Jul 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> How is Kisame's body not?* Tsunade has the weakest *durability out of all of the kages, but she makes up for it with her healing prowess, it doesn't mean her damage is any less real. The Raikage is going to be the hardest to put down for him, but he'll eventually get there, but the other kages are going to be broken and battered far quickly.



Seriously what are you on? Tsunade was the only Kage conscious after the fight with Madara after losing half of her body. She managed to knock down several V3 Susanoo with 2 of Susaano blade piercing her body in half. Anybody in narutoverse that can do that?

Seriously everytime I see a thread with Gai in it its almost guaranteed someone will blow Gai's feat way out of proportion


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## RBL (Jul 17, 2015)

noone thinks he can beat the gokage with the 7th gate.

Only haters like hussain and icegaze are comming here, to shit on gai, even if nobody thinks he can win.

they want to debate wether gai can or can't win 1vs1

and to be honest, gai shits on every single gokage 1vs1.


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## Trojan (Jul 17, 2015)

Yeah, Hussain is haters of all the characters when he says X would win or Y would lose. Same with

Gai, Madara, Hashirama, Itachi, Kiba(?), Kabuto, Sasuke, Tobirama, Naruto (believe it or not), Kakashi, and God knows who else.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki, you're kind of wanking Guy man. Its only with the Eighth Gate he surpasses the Gokage, without it he's below or on par with them one on one. With just the seventh gate he can't solo-hell he could barely beat a Samehada-less Kisame with the Seventh Gate.


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## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> This is why i dont even bother to sign into here most times. The Gai wank is a toxic disease. Some actually thinking he has a remote chance smh.
> 
> I try and stay clear, but something really needs to be said. This is embarrassing.



Then you would've had a heart attack if you came here in 2011 with Itachi and Minato.

It's a manga forum, a hobbie thing. Take it easy.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Ryuzaki, you're kind of wanking Guy man. Its only with the Eighth Gate he surpasses the Gokage, without it *he's below or on par with them one on one.* With just the seventh gate he can't solo-hell *he could barely beat a Samehada-less Kisame* with the Seventh Gate.


I maybe over exaggerating his ability a tad bit with 7th Gate, but I have my reasons, needless to say, in a 1 vs. 1 fight, Gai shit-stomps each of the kage. And FYI, he didn't "barely" beat Gai, he basically stomped the shit out of him far and wide. He would solo any of the War Arc Gokage.

Even when Kisame had Samehada, he couldn't react to 6th Gated Morning Peacock not only did he lose, he got demolished. The only reason why Gai had to even use 7th Gate was to compete with the bijuu level chakra that Kisame had taken.


mylastduchess said:


> Seriously what are you on? Tsunade was the only Kage conscious after the fight with Madara after losing half of her body. She managed to knock down several V3 Susanoo with 2 of Susaano blade piercing her body in half. Anybody in narutoverse that can do that?
> 
> Seriously everytime I see a thread with Gai in it its almost guaranteed someone will blow Gai's feat way out of proportion


Do you read through the post or skim through the parts that you want to quote out of context? 


			
				Ryuzaki said:
			
		

> Tsunade has the weakest durability out of all of the kages, but she makes up for it with her healing prowess, it doesn't mean her damage is any less real.


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## mylastduchess (Jul 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Do you read through the post or skim through the parts that you want to quote out of context?
> ​



WTF did I take out of context? Explain to me how Tsunade has the weakest durability of the Kages? (Weaker than Mei and Oonoki) Explain to me if that is not what you meant cause honestly if I quoted all your post I'm gonna go crazy with all the wank


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I maybe over exaggerating his ability a tad bit with 7th Gate, but I have my reasons, needless to say, in a 1 vs. 1 fight, Gai shit-stomps each of the kage. And FYI, he didn't "barely" beat Gai, he basically stomped the shit out of him far and wide. He would solo any of the War Arc Gokage.


You're more than just exaggerating a 'tad bit'. Most of the Gokage can stomp Guy one on one. A's more durable than him, faster than him, and more physically powerful. Tsunade can tank his hits and regen from his best attacks and hit Guy when he's in the cooldown. Gaara can block Hirudora and his best hits. Onoki can fly up and nuke him with a battlefield size Jinton. The only one Guy decisively beats is Mei due to her lack of feats.



> Even when Kisame had Samehada, he couldn't react to 6th Gated Morning Peacock not only did he lose, he got demolished. The only reason why Gai had to even use 7th Gate was to compete with the bijuu level chakra that Kisame had taken.


Samehada-less full power Kisame couldn't regen due to lack of Samehada. Remember what Kisame did when Bee gutted him with a V2 Lariat? Regenerated and got back up. Guy did barely beat a full power Kisame who didn't have his best weapon.

You bring up Shoten Kisame for this, but he was 30% chakra, not comparable to the Kisame we saw fight Killer Bee at all. Kisame lacked his primary weapon that gave him massive regeneration when he had his rematch with Guy.


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## Jad (Jul 17, 2015)

My post has nothing to do with 7th Gat Gai running at them and using Taijutsu moves like kicks and punches to beat them all.

I already believe 1 Hirudora can take out any 1 unprepared Kage in one on one matches at match start. So what's the difference between Gai using one hurudora against each kage at match start and one Hirudora with them grouped together at match start.

Generally ofcourse i don't believe Gai can beat the Gokage. But for me this thread is akin to putting a gun to each Kages head at match start.

This doesn't mean Gai >Gokage together. I'd say the same thing for a few other characters lucky to have fast AOE moves that will launch at match start.

If anyone can activate Hirudora as fast a Gai, which means they can activate their technique in front of Juudara without getting their hand chopped off at point blank. And their technique can intercept Madara in mid motion of attacking via Taijutsu from a few hundred meters, with an expansive AOE range,  that may not be known by their opponents....


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## thechickensage (Jul 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> back pack onoki



awwwwwwwww, Onoki is so cute now that you said that, like a little Yoda


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## J★J♥ (Jul 17, 2015)

If they are in that retarded Samurai mountain and guy throws Hirudora they all die.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 17, 2015)

The Gokage should be able to defend against Hirudora as a whole.  The 5 of them weren't wiped out by Hashirama and Madara scale attacks in a single strike, and I don't think a 7th gate attacks exceeds what those two can do in speed, scope, power, portrayal, or scale.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 17, 2015)

As for how I think the fight goes...

Tsunade summons Katsuyu and they camp inside until Guy dies.  Onoki gives it light weigh and flight and Gaara accelerates the slug with internal sand particles and gives her sand armor.  Mei uses Katsuyu's acid as a suiton source to make giant acid dragons.  Little slugs divide off as acid spiting attack drones to herd and assault Guy into the flexible dragons.  If Guy lands on top, Ei will flow raiton to make an electric slug floor, or Gaara will crush his feet with the sand.  Mei can wet the sand to facilitate Ei's raiton.  Mei can also set up a futon cloud around Katsuyu, who if not immune, is protected by the sand armor.  Onoki may also make Golem drones to patrol and attack, as well as provide additional armor.  This is the Gokage Ranger's Ulitmate Megazord, and Guy stands no chance.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 18, 2015)

mylastduchess said:


> WTF did I take out of context? Explain to me how Tsunade has the weakest durability of the Kages? (Weaker than Mei and Oonoki) Explain to me if that is not what you meant cause honestly if I quoted all your post I'm gonna go crazy with all the wank




> *Durability:* able to resist wear, decay, etc., well; lasting; enduring


She gets injured relatively quickly, in fact her fighting style is based on her lack of durability and the strength of her healing. Her healing ability makes up for the fact that she has shitty durability.

The other kages would not put themselves in such precarious positions since their fighting styles do not hinge on being healed all the time. 



			
				SSM12 said:
			
		

> Samehada-less full power Kisame couldn't regen due to lack of Samehada. Remember what Kisame did when Bee gutted him with a V2 Lariat? Regenerated and got back up. Guy did barely beat a full power Kisame who didn't have his best weapon.
> 
> You bring up Shoten Kisame for this, but he was 30% chakra, not comparable to the Kisame we saw fight Killer Bee at all. Kisame lacked his primary weapon that gave him massive regeneration when he had his rematch with Guy.


He had already taken an exceptional bulk of KB's chakra already, even with Samehada Guy's technique is not chakra based in a fight 1 vs. 1, even with Samehada, Guy wrecks the shit out of him. Kisame won't be able to absorb chakra.

Even with 30% of his chakra, he spat out a lake and Gai clobbered him w/6th Gate. The only thing Kisame lacked was stamina, his body was still just as fast and just as strong as the original. He'd get clobbered just like the shouten.



			
				SSM12 said:
			
		

> You're more than just exaggerating a 'tad bit'. Most of the Gokage can stomp Guy one on one. A's more durable than him, faster than him, and more physically powerful. *Tsunade can tank his hits and regen from his best attacks and hit Guy when he's in the cooldown*. Gaara can block Hirudora and his best hits. Onoki can fly up and nuke him with a battlefield size Jinton. The only one Guy decisively beats is Mei due to her lack of feats.


1 vs. 1 -

Lol @ Ei being faster than Gai, he's not because Edo Madara was batting him around. It wasn't until Backpack Oonoki that Ei got anywhere, if anything Ei was absolute shit performance outside of the kage. Even Mei on her own was more effective than he was.

Whether Gai is gated or not, Tsunade will never be fast enough to hit him. He has an absolute roof tier 5 speed and she's still Beginning of Part 2 Naruto level.

Hirodora blows through anything Gaara can do to put up shield. 5th Gated Lee could easily dance around Gaara's sand, 7th Gated Gai would smack him into an oblivion. 

Gai's faster than Oonoki's beam time, the larger the beam the greater the time it takes to charge up.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He had already taken an exceptional bulk of KB's chakra already, even with Samehada Guy's technique is not chakra based in a fight 1 vs. 1, even with Samehada, Guy wrecks the shit out of him. Kisame won't be able to absorb chakra.
> 
> Even with 30% of his chakra, he spat out a lake and Gai clobbered him w/6th Gate. The only thing Kisame lacked was stamina, his body was still just as fast and just as strong as the original. He'd get clobbered just like the shouten.


That version was still monumentally weaker than Kisame's full power. Kisame was gimped that fight. He couldn't regenerate. And Guy still barely beat that version of Kisame, 

30% chakra for Kisame meant he couldn't just trap Guy in the shark dome and shave off his chakra after merging with the Samehada replica. Guy wouldn't have been able to defeat this version of Kisame at all.



> 1 vs. 1 -
> 
> Lol @ Ei being faster than Gai, he's not because Edo Madara was batting him around. It wasn't until Backpack Oonoki that Ei got anywhere, if anything Ei was absolute shit performance outside of the kage. Even Mei on her own was more effective than he was.


A never, not once used his full speed on Edo Madara. Onoki provided A with more striking power, _not_ speed. 

And A's other feats put him above Guy. Call me when he dodges Amaterasu from point blank.


> Whether Gai is gated or not, Tsunade will never be fast enough to hit him. He has an absolute roof tier 5 speed and she's still Beginning of Part 2 Naruto level.


Slower fighters have tagged faster fighters all the time, and Tsunade has the same 5 in taijutsu as Guy does so that makes up for the difference. And guess what: Guy, when suffering from the cooldown of the gates, is fucking VULNERABLE. And even with the gates (minus Eighth) he has nothing to put Katsuyu down.

Tsunade can just keep regenerating until Guy wears himself out and one-shots him with Byakugo too. 


> Hirodora blows through anything Gaara can do to put up shield. 5th Gated Lee could easily dance around Gaara's sand, 7th Gated Gai would smack him into an oblivion.


You're honestly comparing Chunin Exam Gaara to Kazekage War Arc Gaara Ryuzaki? Seriously? The same Gaara able to block Joki Boi's explosions, C3, and shield himself from FIVE fucking Susano'o blades on top of stopping a mountain-sized meteor? Guy, barring the Eighth Gate, isn't getting through Gaara's defenses AT ALL.


> Gai's faster than Oonoki's beam time, the larger the beam the greater the time it takes to charge up.


Onoki's done huge Jintons in seconds so that's one part you're wrong. And Onoki's flight speed is extremely fast from his duel with Edo Deidara showed. 

You're seriously wanking Guy to the point of absurdity.


----------



## Matty (Jul 18, 2015)

Gai does not get solod by any of the Gokage, you all must be smoking crack or something. I can understand hypothetically how A and Onoki can put up a fight and maybe with a lucky Jinton gets him but he's taking it more times than not every time.

Can he take them all at the same time? No but he'd put up a hell of a fight and definitely has a chance of doing it if the circumstances arise. But he's not Itachi or Nagato


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That version was still monumentally weaker than Kisame's full power. Kisame was gimped that fight. He couldn't regenerate. And Guy still barely beat that version of Kisame,
> 
> 30% chakra for Kisame meant he couldn't just trap Guy in the shark dome and shave off his chakra after merging with the Samehada replica. Guy wouldn't have been able to defeat this version of Kisame at all.


Gai was trapped underwater by Kisame in two scenarios and in both scenarios by activating 6th or 7th Gate, he basically vaporized the water around him. Kisame's advantage in either form is nullified.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A never, not once used his full speed on Edo Madara. Onoki provided A with more striking power, _not_ speed.
> 
> And A's other feats put him above Guy. Call me when he dodges Amaterasu from point blank.


Again, the only thing that would be able to touch 7th Gated Gai is probably the combination of Oonoki/Raikage (lightened body).



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Slower fighters have tagged faster fighters all the time, and Tsunade has the same 5 in taijutsu as Guy does *so that makes up for the difference*. And guess what: Guy, when suffering from the cooldown of the gates, is fucking VULNERABLE. And even with the gates (minus Eighth) he has nothing to put Katsuyu down.
> 
> Tsunade can just keep regenerating until Guy wears himself out and one-shots him with Byakugo too.


I don't see what Katsuyu will do to Gai, if anything he has a turtle 

Tsunade: 5 in taijutsu, 3.5 in speed
Gai: 5 in taijutsu, 5 in speed.

They both have the same score in taijutsu, therefore the speed is going to be the difference maker. The stats also account for base stats and not the Gates, Gai would like donkey punch Tsunade out of existence with just the 6th Gate. Kisame has a tougher constitution than Tsunade, who bleeds and breaks far easier than Kisame would.

As for the cool down period, Guy was able to use multiple AT in the War Arc, I don't see why he would need a cool down anymore. He used 6th Gate effortlessly in the War Arc as well. The cool down may have been necessary earlier on but after the start of the War Arc, Gai was okay using it without a problem.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You're honestly comparing Chunin Exam Gaara to Kazekage War Arc Gaara Ryuzaki? Seriously? The same Gaara able to block Joki Boi's explosions, C3, and shield himself from FIVE fucking Susano'o blades on top of stopping a mountain-sized meteor? Guy, barring the Eighth Gate, isn't getting through Gaara's defenses AT ALL.


Hirodora broke through Kisame's bijuu powered Kamehameha, Gaara does not have anything that can compete with that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Onoki's done huge Jintons in seconds so that's one part you're wrong. And Onoki's flight speed is extremely fast from his duel with Edo Deidara showed.


Base Gai was faster than Deidara, Gated Gai avoids it without question.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You're seriously wanking Guy to the point of absurdity.


1 vs. 1 - Gai > Any of the War Arc Gokage


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gai was trapped underwater by Kisame in two scenarios and in both scenarios by activating 6th or 7th Gate, he basically vaporized the water around him. Kisame's advantage in either form is nullified.


No, he really isn't. The volume of water for the dome will rapidly rush back in and suffocate guy and leave him at the same disadvantage. He's continuously shaved of chakra and drained until he drowns.



> Again, the only thing that would be able to touch 7th Gated Gai is probably the combination of Oonoki/Raikage (lightened body).


Again, show a feat of Seventh Gated Guy dodging something like Amaterasu. A could do so with ease. A was the fastest shinobi in the world until Naruto, _not_ Guy. That's a manga fact.



> I don't see what Katsuyu will do to Gai, if anything he has a turtle


Bathe him in acid, shield her from Guy's attacks which will do diddly squat, help with Tsunade's regen, etc. Seriously, Guy can't do anything to Katsuyu.


> Tsunade: 5 in taijutsu, 3.5 in speed
> Gai: 5 in taijutsu, 5 in speed.
> 
> They both have the same score in taijutsu, therefore the speed is going to be the difference maker. The stats also account for base stats and not the Gates, Gai would like donkey punch Tsunade out of existence with just the 6th Gate. Kisame has a tougher constitution than Tsunade, who bleeds and breaks far easier than Kisame would.


How does Tsunade 'break easier' than Kisame when she's shown superior durability feats? Surviving lightspeed travel? Tanking Madara's Susano'o blows and Yasaka Magatama? If anything, Tsunade's shown greater durability than Kisame has. And that's adding to Tsunade's regeneration ability. Guy literally can't do anything against it. She'll just keep coming back.


> As for the cool down period, Guy was able to use multiple AT in the War Arc, I don't see why he would need a cool down anymore. He used 6th Gate effortlessly in the War Arc as well. The cool down may have been necessary earlier on but after the start of the War Arc, Gai was okay using it without a problem.


Guy used two Hirudora in the War Arc, the first drained him nearly of the entirety of his chakra and the second was blown back against him. Sixth Gate does shit on Tsunade, she just regens and hits him while he's recovering.



> Hirodora broke through Kisame's bijuu powered Kamehameha, Gaara does not have anything that can compete with that.


Gaara's blocked village busters and Madara's fucking attacks. Those>Kisame's jutsu.



> Base Gai was faster than Deidara, Gated Gai avoids it without question.


...which is why Guy couldn't do shit against Deidara despite Deidara being armless, remember? And Guy having the backup of the entirety of his team then. Really impotent. 

Onoki taps him and weights him down just as he's about to power up, then flies up and nukes him while he tries to deal with the weight increase.


> 1 vs. 1 - Gai > Any of the War Arc Gokage


Only if you wank his abilities.


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2015)

Jad said:


> My post has nothing to do with 7th Gat Gai running at them and using Taijutsu moves like kicks and punches to beat them all.
> 
> I already believe 1 Hirudora can take out any 1 unprepared Kage in one on one matches at match start. So what's the difference between Gai using one hurudora against each kage at match start and one Hirudora with them grouped together at match start.
> 
> ...



I appreciate and understand your post 
Gun to their heads you are right 

Now does it have the fwats to suggest it can take out Gaara should he only be caught in the blast ?

Does the blast expand quicker than amaterasu if not A can avoid it casually 

Would the blast evaporate tsunade ? If not byakuyo and she will recover or katsuyu and no one need to do anytbinf but sit and chill


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## LostSelf (Jul 18, 2015)

Yes, the blast expands faster than Enton (It's not Amaterasu, Sasuke just moved the black flames already in the battlefield).

I also think that, in jutsu execution, Gai's far, far above in speed than anybody here save Ei. But i'll just leave it at that .


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes, the blast expands faster than Enton (It's not Amaterasu, Sasuke just moved the black flames already in the battlefield).
> 
> I also think that, in jutsu execution, Gai's far, far above in speed than anybody here save Ei. But i'll just leave it at that .





what A sidestepped was amaterasu

yes jutsu execution its not a thought, gai is far above anyone in speed department never doubted that. it also has nothing to do with my post 

I just don't see how 1 hirudora takes out all 5. its hilarious to think so


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## LostSelf (Jul 18, 2015)

Yeah, Ei should dodge it (or get hit while he's powering up ).

It wouldn't happen, never. Just like Kishimoto would never draw Kakashi sniping Madara's head off. You get the example .


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## Clowe (Jul 18, 2015)

Lol people blowing Guy's feat agaisnt Juudara way out of proportion, the only thing he did is push him back, he didn't even hit him.

A (durability to withstand all of his attacks, faster, stronger) Tsunade (regenerate damage from all his attack, stronger) and Oonoki (fly out of range and nuke him) can solo 7th gate Guy, hell i'd argue Gaara could beat him too, but it could go either way. The only Kage Guy can decisively defeat is Mei.

Also, lol at those Genin Sasuke scans... I'm guessing with that feat, he can beat Zabuza right?


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## Ghost (Jul 18, 2015)

Lol no. He gets shit stomped. The fuck is this


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## Trojan (Jul 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Gai does not get solod by any of the Gokage, you all must be smoking crack or something. I can understand hypothetically how A and Onoki can put up a fight and maybe with a lucky Jinton gets him but he's taking it more times than not every time.
> 
> Can he take them all at the same time? No but he'd put up a hell of a fight and definitely has a chance of doing it if the circumstances arise. But he's not Itachi or Nagato



Nah, you seem to be smocking something. And it seems to be really powerful as well. 

Where did Gai's AT destroy or effected something as powerful as A's body (even in base), or Tsunade's...etc?


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## Turrin (Jul 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again, show a feat of Seventh Gated Guy dodging something like Amaterasu. A could do so with ease. A was the fastest shinobi in the world until Naruto, not Guy. That's a manga fact.


Are you saying Ei is faster than 8th-Gate Gai? If you are 

If your not than obviously your admitting that there are exceptions to Ei's FSW [Fastest Shinobi in the World] hype, and if 8th Gate is not accounted for, whose to say Ei accounted for Gai's speed in 6th/7th Gates? As far as feats go, Gai keeping up with Juubidara in 7th-Gate, who punked out SM-Minato, while Base-Minato was considered faster than Ei's Max Speed, is more than enough proof of 7th-Gate Gai being way fucking faster than Ei. Fuck even in 6th-Gate Gai is probably moving faster than Ei because he can release a thousand attacks in a split instant to counter 1,000 sharks. 

Ei is probably comparable to 5th-Gate Gai, and even that may be being too generous, considering just how massive a boost in speed 5th-Gate was shown to grant Lee in the Chunin Exams and Gai already starting off at roof tier in speed, before Gates. But since Gai has a lack of showings in 5th-Gate, I won't push that point too far.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

When A made the remark about being the fastest, we knew about Gai's 7th Gate. So yes, A is definitely faster than 7 gates Gai.


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## Turrin (Jul 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When A made the remark about being the fastest, we knew about Gai's 7th Gate. So yes, A is definitely faster than 7 gates Gai.


We also knew about 8th-Gate. We knew about Kamui. We knew about Tobirama having a Space-Time Jutsu. We knew about Naruto's KCM Shunshin. Guess he's faster than all of those things trololo


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 18, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, he really isn't. The volume of water for the dome will rapidly rush back in and suffocate guy and leave him at the same disadvantage. He's continuously shaved of chakra and drained until he drowns.
> 
> Again, show a feat of Seventh Gated Guy dodging something like Amaterasu. A could do so with ease. A was the fastest shinobi in the world until Naruto, _not_ Guy. That's a manga fact.


Kisame even mentioned that Gai using 6th Gate vaporized the water around him, why wouldn't Gai just do it again? 

Gai was already tier 5 in speed, 7th Gated Gai > A. And the hype doesn't apply because Gai perfected 7th Gate after the Time Skip. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Bathe him in acid, shield her from Guy's attacks which will do diddly squat, help with Tsunade's regen, etc. Seriously, Guy can't do anything to Katsuyu.


Gai beats Tsunade to the point where she loses consciousness.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How does Tsunade 'break easier' than Kisame when she's shown superior durability feats? Surviving lightspeed travel? Tanking Madara's Susano'o blows and Yasaka Magatama? If anything, Tsunade's shown greater durability than Kisame has. And that's adding to Tsunade's regeneration ability. Guy literally can't do anything against it. She'll just keep coming back.


Her style is predicated on getting hurt so she can heal herself, Gai will just demolish her. I cannot believe that you think Tsunade actually stands a chance.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Guy used two Hirudora in the War Arc, the first drained him nearly of the entirety of his chakra and the second was blown back against him. Sixth Gate does shit on Tsunade, she just regens and hits him while he's recovering.


Hirodora does not use chakra.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Gaara's blocked village busters and Madara's fucking attacks. Those>Kisame's jutsu.


They pale in comparison to Gai's AT.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...which is why Guy couldn't do shit against Deidara despite Deidara being armless, remember? And Guy having the backup of the entirety of his team then. Really impotent.


Irrelevant since this happened 400 chapters ago. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Onoki taps him and weights him down just as he's about to power up, then flies up and nukes him while he tries to deal with the weight increase.


d

You think Oonoki is going to be able to CQC w/Gai not lose his feeble old head?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only if you wank his abilities.


d d 

Not at all, the only who stands a chance at defeating Gai is A and that's due to his durability not that he's stronger or better than Gai.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> We also knew about 8th-Gate. We knew about Kamui. We knew about Tobirama having a Space-Time Jutsu. We knew about Naruto's KCM Shunshin. Guess he's faster than all of those things trololo



No. Gai had never used 8th Gate before, so no one could have an idea about how fast he'd get with it. Not us or any of the characters in the series. 8th gate was known but not experienced.
Even Madara had no idea.

But Gai had used 7th Gate before, as Yamato recognized Hirudora.

So 7th gate Gai's speed was recorded, 8th Gate not.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 18, 2015)

This is getting pretty absurd at this point,


Yes 7th Gate is a great boost to speed and strength but lets look at where Base Gai started with.


1. Gets outran by Deidara, when he had a long range fighter to make it harder for Deidara to run.

2. Couldn't blitz Shouten Kisame, Needed 6 Gates to beat 30 % Kisame


Now when you have those showings, even with Gated boosts, can you honestly say Gai is gonna take on all 5 Gokage at once, I mean lets think about this, Gai Needed 6 Gates to kill Shouten Kisame, He needed 7th Gate to beat the real Kisame who wasn't even at 100 %. Now you have to take in account that Onoki can not only slow Gai down, He can also Speed up the other Gokage, noticeably Ei. This doesn't take into account all of the OHKO moves Gai will have to dodge in this fight as well. Like Jinton, Acid, Tsunades casual punches. Its pretty clear the level difference between GAI and the Gokage.

Bottom line is, Gai gets thrown into the dumpster.


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## Turrin (Jul 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No. Gai had never used 8th Gate before, so no one could have an idea about how fast he'd get with it. Not us


We clearly did have an idea, I.E. that it would raise his physical capabilities so tremendously that it would put him above the Hokages, which Ei is nowhere even remotely in the same universe off. Also again, I know you hate this concept, but common sense dictates that opening another Gate would give Gai a significant speed boost as all the other Gates had, so unless Ei was vastly faster than 7th-Gate Gai, we knew 8th-Gate would likely be faster than him, even if the increase wasn't as great as it turned out to be. 



> or any of the characters in the series. 8th gate was known but not experienced.


If you want to bring in the character's knowledge to this discussion. Than please prove Ei even knew Gai could open the 6th-7th Gate. Dude could have just been ignorant to that fact, the same way he was ignorant to Naruto's speed being greater than his.



> But Gai had used 7th Gate before, as Yamato recognized Hirudora.
> 
> So 7th gate Gai's speed was recorded, 8th Gate not.


So someone from Gai's own village knowing Gai can use 7th-Gate, means Ei from a totally different village knows about it....please.

Gai has demonstrated vastly better feats than Ei and Ei was directly proven wrong before about being the Fastest Man and therefore has very little credibility in my eyes compared to what was directly shown to be the case.


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## Rocky (Jul 18, 2015)

The 8th Gate is not considered in statements like that. It's the same thing with Hiruzen saying that nobody in the Leaf could stand up to Orochimaru.

The argument about A's statement holding is Tsunade not finding any problem with it despite knowing about Gai's gates.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 18, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> 1. Gets outran by Deidara, when he had a long range fighter to make it harder for Deidara to run.


He was exhausted from fighting himself for an extended period of time and that was a feat from over 400 chapters ago, when he first showed Morning Peacock.


GilgameshXFate said:


> 2. Couldn't blitz Shouten Kisame, Needed 6 Gates to beat 30 % Kisame
> 
> Now when you have those showings, even with Gated boosts, can you honestly say Gai is gonna take on all 5 Gokage at once, I mean lets think about this, Gai Needed 6 Gates to kill Shouten Kisame


6 Gates was overkill for Kisame, not that Gai couldn't do it without them.



GilgameshXFate said:


> He needed 7th Gate to beat the real Kisame *who wasn't even at 100 %*. Now you have to take in account that Onoki can not only slow Gai down, He can also Speed up the other Gokage, noticeably Ei. This doesn't take into account all of the OHKO moves Gai will have to dodge in this fight as well. Like Jinton, Acid, Tsunades casual punches. Its pretty clear the level difference between GAI and the Gokage.
> 
> Bottom line is, Gai gets thrown into the dumpster.


> Kisame absorbs a shit-ton of bijuu chakra
> Wasn't at 100%


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No. Gai had never used 8th Gate before, so no one could have an idea about how fast he'd get with it. Not us or any of the characters in the series. 8th gate was known but not experienced.
> Even Madara had no idea.
> 
> But Gai had used 7th Gate before, as Yamato recognized Hirudora.
> ...



Smh 

I cant believe im agreeing with this guy.

Of course eight gates wasnt accounted for. It had never been used before, its a forbidden technique. Even gai himself would't have know how fast he is in the eight gates.

Claiming ei is slower than gai wtf. There should be a separate thread called personal manga interpretations, because thats where this nonsense belongs. Kishi knee what he was writing when Ei stated himself to be the fastest. Seventh gate is an ability gai has used before. Im sure the likes of kakashi and tsuande (especially kakashi) has seen gai in the seventh gate. 

In fact we know people have seen gai in the seventh gate. Yamato for example has, because he saw the explosion of hirudora and explained to everyone what it is. Yet do they claim gai was the fastest? No they dont. Tsunade knows all her jonin and their abiltites, she was right there when Ei made that statement, did she refute it? No she did not. In fact she was shocked that naruto could keep up, implying that mo shinobi alive is capable. I dont know why people are trying to twist manga facts so desperately. Kishi called Ei the fastest, theres no disputing that. The exception is the eighth gate which no one knew about.

Gais feat against madara is BS, he pushed madara back with taijutsu. Madara was hopping/skipping/back pedalling. So what, are people claiming that madara walking/hopping backwards equates to high speed movement? Also in that scan we see gai throwing punches and kicks. Are we also claiming that gai can punch and kick while simultaneously running top speed? Does that actually make sense to people. The fact that madara intercepted gais fastest punch should tell you that anything slower, madara would have intercepted as well, gai surprised him thats all. If i was covering my eyes and someone jumped in front of me, I'd be surprised too. Im glad the anime trashed this scene, even the animators know it wasn't all that, madara wasn't even trying.


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2015)

@rasen while I agree with you 
You sound a tiny bit bitter . That's not good lol 

Gai being fsster than A really isn't the point . If he is big whoop . A is faster than loads of people doesn't help him beat them 

Gai being fsster than A doesn't suddenly give him the ability to beat 5 kage 

Kishi didn't have Kakashi mention Gai in 8th gate > gokage twice in the manga 

Just for people to think 7th gate Gai > gokage


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## Trojan (Jul 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The 8th Gate is not considered in statements like that. It's the same thing with Hiruzen saying that nobody in the Leaf could stand up to Orochimaru.
> 
> The argument about A's statement holding is Tsunade not finding any problem with it despite knowing about Gai's gates.



Not only Tsunade. They shared the information with all the villages about what the characters can do, so they can have better plans. 

Comparing the gates to Naruto's case is ridiculous as well. Gai learnt the Gates from his father since he was a kid, and other characters know of it. Naruto only got that power up in that specific day. So, obviously he was not account for.

It's just like to throw Kabuto's statement about Hashirama being stronger than those who were alive
because well, Gai was alive and he is stronger than Hashirama, and Kabuto had no idea that Naruto achieved BM and so on...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> We clearly did have an idea, I.E. that it would raise his physical capabilities so tremendously that it would put him above the Hokages, which Ei is nowhere even remotely in the same universe off. Also again, I know you hate this concept, but common sense dictates that opening another Gate would give Gai a significant speed boost as all the other Gates had, so unless Ei was vastly faster than 7th-Gate Gai, we knew 8th-Gate would likely be faster than him, even if the increase wasn't as great as it turned out to be.
> 
> 
> If you want to bring in the character's knowledge to this discussion. Than please prove Ei even knew Gai could open the 6th-7th Gate. Dude could have just been ignorant to that fact, the same way he was ignorant to Naruto's speed being greater than his.
> ...


You are nit picking.

A's statement indicated two things. 

1 - Minato was the fastest back in the day.
2 - After he passed away, A became the fastest.

Yes, it includes every character and feat Kishimoto introduced to the reader within context. Thing which weren't introduced(and things left out of context like Tobirama) are obviously not included.

 8th Gate Gai wasn't introduced, so naturally it was left out. 7th Gate Guy was introduced, so he was included. 

This is very simple.

A knew about Kakashi's raikiri, he possibly knew about Gai and his gates. You re trying to discuss semantics by saying stuff like "maybe A didn't know about Gai." It is irrelevant whether he knew Gai or not(most definitely he did). It is basically the author making a statement, that statement could have come from anyone. 

You are right about one thing, if someone else contradicts the statement, verbally or visually, then the statement can be possibly discarded.
But no such thing happened.. Tsunade didn't correct him, or Kishimoto bothered to make another statement concerning 7 gated Gai. And no, Gai doesn't have better feats.

Gai has yet to blitz a MS user to be able to match A's feat. And by blitz, I mean literally escape his vision by leaving an after image.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kisame even mentioned that Gai using 6th Gate vaporized the water around him, why wouldn't Gai just do it again?


Since that's only a temporary effect. THe water would just come back in and swallow him up when the Gates stabilize.


> Gai was already tier 5 in speed, 7th Gated Gai > A. And the hype doesn't apply because Gai perfected 7th Gate after the Time Skip.


Guy was never even in the running for fastest shinobi. The three fastest shinobi are Naruto, Minato, and A. Unless the Eighth Gate is use, Guy isn't one of them. The manga explicitly shows A was the fastest in the world.

Show me Guy dodging Amaterasu! Show me it! Can you do it?! If he has no comparative feat to that, he can't and thus is slower than A.



> Gai beats Tsunade to the point where she loses consciousness.


Given everything she's tanked, that's unlikely. She'll just regenerate.



> Her style is predicated on getting hurt so she can heal herself, Gai will just demolish her. I cannot believe that you think Tsunade actually stands a chance.


Since Guy doesn't. Anyone who doesn't wank him realizes Tsunade is stronger than Guy. Hell without the Eighth Gate, Kakashi was stronger than Guy and he was weaker than Tsunade until DMS. Tsunade tanks and regenerates everything Guy throws at her. She then kills him with a single punch when he's exhausted himself.



> Hirodora does not use chakra.


Yes it does. The punch isn't made out of chakra, but to use it chakra is used. Guy exhausts himself using Hirudora.



> They pale in comparison to Gai's AT.


You're trolling now, right? Hirudora has nothing on the techniques I listed.



> Irrelevant since this happened 400 chapters ago.


No its not. The feat still stands.


> d
> 
> You think Oonoki is going to be able to CQC w/Gai not lose his feeble old head?


A single tap is all that's needed to shut down Guy's entire fighting style. Or Onoki can mess with his head with clones.


> d d
> 
> Not at all, the only who stands a chance at defeating Gai is A and that's due to his durability not that he's stronger or better than Gai.


With the exception of Mei, every member of the Gokage is stronger than Guy. You're wanking him to the point of absurdity and downplaying them. You're supposed to be better than this.


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## LostSelf (Jul 18, 2015)

Statements are meant to be taken valid. Like Gai being stronger than Kakashi when he hyped himself, Sakura catching up to BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. That should be Kishimoto's intention when he made Ei said that.

However, that's the only believable stuff. Tsunade entering a debate on who's faster in the middle of a fight would be stupid. Ei would've told her to shut up. And we don't even have any indication on Tsunade knowing the real extent of Gai's speed. I mean, was Gai forced to use the 7th when she was in the village? Or Gai had the 7th when he was a kid?

Or was Gai forced to fight at full speed? Because as far as i'm concerned, by the time these guys experienced the 7th gate, Gai could've been much, but much younger and slower. Because sure we all are that Gai didn't use it since part 1, years ago.

Heck, who knows if Yamato knew the attack because he saw it himself while Gai trained or something, it doesn't necessarily has to be seeing Gai's top speed.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 18, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He was exhausted from fighting himself for an extended period of time and that was a feat from over 400 chapters ago, when he first showed Morning Peacock.



Oh don't give give me this BS, Deidara got his ARM REMOVED, and was spending most of the day getting chased by Naruto and Kakashi, AND this is coming off of a 3 day straight sealing ritual meaning he was obviously already low on stamina, if were gonna play the exhaustion game then if anything Deidara was MORE exhausted then Gai and still outran him and his entire team, While dodging Weapons.



> 6 Gates was overkill for Kisame, not that Gai couldn't do it without them.



_Then why use 6 gates if he could beat Shouten Kisame with less?_



> > Kisame absorbs a shit-ton of bijuu chakra
> > Wasn't at 100%



Yes Kisame had more chakra then he usually would have, But he also lacked Samehada and Shark Fusion, Which are a core part of his moveset, So basically factor in everything and its clear Kisame wasn't at his best.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

@ Lostself

You are arguing technicalities. 

Tsunade could have just said "I wonder..." and think about Gai or outright say "don't forget Gai" or some shit, and that would take a panel or two, and it wouldn't be dumb. The fact that she didn't, or the fact that Kishimoto made no attempt to bring up Gai's speed @ any point afterwards, just shows that A's statement holds true or in otherwords, Gai wasn't fast enough to be relevant. 

"Was Gai forced to fight @ fullspeed ?" Are you serious ? 
The fact that Gai being forced to use 7 gates shows the situation is serious. 

There is no end to "what ifs." If you start with that, then every single statement becomes questionable. 
You may argue how the hell C knew about Amaterasu for example.... I mean we know for a fact that Jiraiya didn't. Kakash didn't know about it either.  How can C, a young cloud shinobi have that information when Konoha veterans didn't ? I think you should start theorising about that, because that is more questionable than the statement at hand.


Whats important is the context.

What do you think Kishimoto's intention was ? 

To state that A was the fastest, and expected the reader to take it as granted. 
or to state that A was the fastest and expexted the reader to raise a million questions and arguments on why that statement can't be true.

Give it a break people


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## LostSelf (Jul 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> @ Lostself
> 
> You are arguing technicalities.
> 
> Tsunade could have just said "I wonder..." and think about Gai or outright say "don't forget Gai" or some shit, and that would take a panel or two, and it wouldn't be dumb. The fact that she didn't, or the fact that Kishimoto made no attempt to bring up Gai's speed @ any point afterwards, just shows that A's statement holds true or in otherwords, Gai wasn't fast enough to be relevant.



Tsunade's main concern was Naruto. There was no reason for her to stop and debate over something stupid.



> "Was Gai forced to fight @ fullspeed ?" Are you serious ?
> The fact that Gai being forced to use 7 gates shows the situation is serious.



I wonder if you actually read my post carefully. Gai has opened the 7th gate twice in the manga. The first time, nobody saw him, the second one, Gaara, who watched Ei, found Gai's movement speed inhuman. Now then, the Konoha Shinobis knew Gai could open the 7th gate.

The question is when did he open it? We know he didn't open it in part 1, nor in part 2 until the fight with Kisame. So, when? Before part 1 or less would be years before, years where Gai could've improved greatly.

And Tsunade had a lot of years outside of the village in order to know exactly. I mean, assume Gai opened it a year before the events of the manga that we witnessed. What information do you think Tsunade would have? His fight with Kisame that nobody saw, or the time Gai used the 7th before that?

How do you know the information of gates that Tsunade has is not an outdated one, considering that, the first time we see Gai using it in the manga, was more than 2 years or more after the manga began? 



> There is no end to "what ifs." If you start with that, then every single statement becomes questionable.
> You may argue how the hell C knew about Amaterasu for example.... I mean we know for a fact that Jiraiya didn't. Kakash didn't know about it either.  How can C, a young cloud shinobi have that information when Konoha veterans didn't ? I think you should start theorising about that, because that is more questionable than the statement at hand.
> Whats important is the context.
> 
> What do you think Kishimoto's intention was ?



If Konohamaru came out and blitzed Kaguya. What would've been of Ei's stamement? Bullshit?



> To state that A was the fastest, and expected the reader to take it as granted.
> or to state that A was the fastest and expexted the reader to raise a million questions and arguments on why that statement can't be true.
> 
> Give it a break people


Your reading comprehension has serious troubles, because you're facepalming and repeating something i said in the very first lines of my post.


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## Icegaze (Jul 18, 2015)

Yikes 
not sure I get the debate anymore with all the what if's and what not
This reminds me of people who try to claim KCM is faster than minato when Kishi had yamato say the exact opposite 

Now the bullshit people bring up would be did Yamato ever see him fight Bla bla bla 

Well Kishi isn't trolling on naruto forums . His characters obviously have more background than he could show 

Questioning that is no different from saying 1010 has no parents since they weren't shown. 

Or can't kick since she was never shown kicking 

statements are the author having characters tell the readers what he wants us to get from it 

No matter how ridiculous 

I.e Sakura believing she was on Kcm and EMS sasuke level . Though it could be based on what she had just seen 

Since she knew nothing of PS and the rest


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## LostSelf (Jul 18, 2015)

Let me tell you, my friend, that those are terrible examples.

Ei's statement was right, i give him that. Yes, was .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Tsunade's main concern was Naruto. There was no reason for her to stop and debate over something stupid.



Do you call everything that you don't agree with "stupid"? Let me tell you thats a childish habbit.

Anyways, no... Tsunade was familiar with A's speed. He is familiar with Gai.  if she thought A was talking out of his ass, she'd confront him about that. It is that simple. 



> I wonder if you actually read my post carefully. Gai has opened the 7th gate twice in the manga. The first time, nobody saw him, the second one, Gaara, who watched Ei, found Gai's movement speed inhuman. Now then, the Konoha Shinobis knew Gai could open the 7th gate.



Gaara never said his movement speed was inhuman. He said his movements were in human, as Gai was demolishing his surroundings with every move. Sorta like how Lee was doing in the chuunin exam.



> The question is when did he open it? We know he didn't open it in part 1, nor in part 2 until the fight with Kisame. So, when? Before part 1 or less would be years before, years where Gai could've improved greatly.



"When" is irrelevant. 

But if you want to know that badly, let me tell you then..... He opened the 7th gate 2 days 13 hours and 58 minutes before part 1 started. 
So no, he didn't improve greatly.



> And Tsunade had a lot of years outside of the village in order to know exactly. I mean, assume Gai opened it a year before the events of the manga that we witnessed. What information do you think Tsunade would have? His fight with Kisame that nobody saw, or the time Gai used the 7th before that?


The same way C knew about Itachi's Amaterasu feats. 



> How do you know the information of gates that Tsunade has is not an outdated one, considering that, the first time we see Gai using it in the manga, was more than 2 years or more after the manga began?


I know it wasn't outdated, do you know how ? Because Kishimoto made no mention of Gai when "the fastest people around" were being mentioned. He wasn't relevant, sorry.



> If Konohamaru came out and blitzed Kaguya. What would've been of Ei's stamement? Bullshit?


It would never happen, but yes. Although I don't see what this has anything to do with what I said.



> Your reading comprehension has serious troubles, because you're facepalming and repeating something i said in the very first lines of my post.



You are questioning a clear statement, that wasn't even slightly contradicted, without any substantial reasoning or evidence and my reading comprehension comes up ? Ugh no.


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## Trojan (Jul 18, 2015)

@LostSelf

There is no way Tsunade has an outdated information. Seriously, it was mentioned several times in the War arc that they shared informations about the ninja. Thinking Tsunade does not know information that Yamato and the  others know is absurd! 

They even know about Obito's Kamui and that he can only use it for 5 minuets. 
the information goes so fast that Shukaku knew that Tobi was Obito right away when he was revealed!


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## LostSelf (Jul 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you call everything that you don't agree with "stupid"? Let me tell you thats a childish habbit.



. I am not calling your argument stupid. I'm saying that stopping something important to talk about something entirely different that has nothing to do or any kind of importance (because Gai and Ei are allies) is stupid of her. 




> It would never happen, but yes. Although I don't see what this has anything to do with what I said.



Nothing. It's an example. If a statement is done, and a lot of chapters after that statement is proven wrong, then said person was wrong or Kishi ret-conned.

However, being "technical", Ei stopped being the fastest man alive the moment Gai opened the 8th, so he and Tsunade, that one that was outside of the village, that prolly never saw Gai using the 7th gates since part 1, were wrong.



> You are questioning a clear statement, that wasn't even slightly contradicted, without any substantial reasoning or evidence and my reading comprehension comes up ? Ugh no.





> Statements are meant to be taken valid.



Don't make me lose hope on you, are you sure took your time to read before writting and hitting your face with your hand or table?  

I didn't respond to the other stuff because that's being technical, unless it's Itachi. So i will concede that part because i already agreed with Ei's statement.


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## LostSelf (Jul 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @LostSelf
> 
> There is no way Tsunade has an outdated information. Seriously, it was mentioned several times in the War arc that they shared informations about the ninja. Thinking Tsunade does not know information that Yamato and the
> others know is absurd!
> ...



I know she had information. It's not the point i was trying to make. I was judging the information the shinobis on Konoha could have of the 7th gate at his highest point, in other words, at full speed. Because since the beggining of part 1, Gai never used it until he fought Kisame, therefore Shikaku or the others might've seen it before the manga started, in wich Gai could've become faster. Unless they make the shinobis test their abilities to see how far they can get.

Don't know if i explained myself well there. *However, i agreed with Ei's statement considering Kishi probably didn't even think of this*. However, it's like the example i said above. Ei said that, but what if, chapters after, Konohamaru comes and proves he's faster?

It's highly arguably if Gai proved Ei wrong when he faced Madara. Be it with Kishi retconning Gai or powerscaling him. Or any other reason.

Oh, and you haven't answered. Be honest, Hussain. Be honest .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> . I am not calling your argument stupid. I'm saying that stopping something important to talk about something entirely different that has nothing to do or any kind of importance (because Gai and Ei are allies) is stupid of her.


I agree that Gai wasn't relevant to the conversation.
But then, Kishi wouldn't make such an assertive statement if he thought there were faster people than A. That'd be lying to the reader for no reason. So he could have said "now that 4th is dead, me and that green beast from Konoha are the fastest." or something along those lines. I don't think anyone would consider that "stupid."

But for the sake of the argument lets say Kishimoto thought Gai was faster and still made that statement, he'd most likely correct himself on a different occasion. 
Like during Gai vs Obito & Madara. Someone would come up and say how Gai is the fastest with 7th gate or something.



> Nothing. It's an example. If a statement is done, and a lot of chapters after that statement is proven wrong, then said person was wrong or Kishi ret-conned.



Sure, but again, how is that relevant to A's statement ? No one proved him wrong.



> However, being "technical", Ei stopped being the fastest man alive the moment Gai opened the 8th, so he and Tsunade, that one that was outside of the village, that prolly never saw Gai using the 7th gates since part 1, were wrong.



Sure, but that statement was true when it was made. Thats what we are debating no ? 
Also Tsunade could have been updated when she returned to Konoha. As the Hokage she is obliged to know the militaristic potential of her village. 



> because i already agreed with Ei's statement.



Then why are we having this conversation ?


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are nit picking.
> 
> A's statement indicated two things.
> 
> ...


Kishi introduced KCM-Naruto's Yellow-Flash Shunshin before that statement, which turned out to be faster than Ei's max-speed. So that right there shuts down your argument.



> Gai has yet to blitz a MS user to be able to match A's feat. And by blitz, I mean literally escape his vision by leaving an after image.


He kept up with a Juubi Jinchuuriki who is eons above any MS users, like what the fuck are you smoking dude.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 19, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Oh don't give give me this BS, Deidara got his ARM REMOVED, and was spending most of the day getting chased by Naruto and Kakashi, AND this is coming off of a 3 day straight sealing ritual meaning he was obviously already low on stamina, if were gonna play the exhaustion game then if anything Deidara was MORE exhausted then Gai and still outran him and his entire team, While dodging Weapons


That Deidara was also a clay clone. Gai's body was still weak from using 6th Gate in battle, it put more of strain than Deidara standing in a place and sealing the 1-tail.



GilgameshXFate said:


> _Then why use 6 gates if he could beat Shouten Kisame with less?_


Gai did it to end the match quicker because he was worried about his team who were still caught in the water-prison.



GilgameshXFate said:


> Yes Kisame had more chakra then he usually would have, But he also lacked Samehada and Shark Fusion, Which are a core part of his moveset, So basically factor in everything and its clear Kisame wasn't at his best.


How would it make a difference if Gai was going to vaporize the water anyway?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since that's only a temporary effect. THe water would just come back in and swallow him up when the Gates stabilize.


Why wouldn't Gai jump out of it like he did before? 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Guy was never even in the running for fastest shinobi. The three fastest shinobi are Naruto, Minato, and A. Unless the Eighth Gate is use, Guy isn't one of them. The manga explicitly shows A was the fastest in the world.


Raikage had the hype but it's no longer his time anymore. There have been faster characters than him at this point Gated Gai is one example another is DMS Kakashi, Ameno-powered Sasuke and etc. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Show me Guy dodging Amaterasu! Show me it! Can you do it?! If he has no comparative feat to that, he can't and thus is slower than A.


Wow, you really need proof to believe that 7th Gated Gai > Raikage in terms of speed?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given everything she's tanked, that's unlikely. She'll just regenerate.


Gai punches her in the head and makes her head roll or whips her unconscious with his nun-chucks. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since Guy doesn't. Anyone who doesn't wank him realizes Tsunade is stronger than Guy. *Hell without the Eighth Gate*, Kakashi was stronger than Guy and he was weaker than Tsunade until DMS. Tsunade tanks and regenerates everything Guy throws at her. She then kills him with a single punch when he's exhausted himself.


There's no point in debating this any further if you can't accept that 7th Gated Gai > Tsunade. You assumed that Gai would lose because Tsunade has the same roof tier in taijutsu but ignored the fact that Gai in his base form without the gates is 1.5 tiers ahead of her in speed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Why wouldn't Gai jump out of it like he did before?


Since he's in the dome which MOVES around him? Seriously, forgot how the jutsu even worked?



> Raikage had the hype but it's no longer his time anymore. There have been faster characters than him at this point Gated Gai is one example another is DMS Kakashi, Ameno-powered Sasuke and etc.


ONLY Eight Gated Guy is faster than A. Unless you're Rikudo, full Gates unleashed, Hiraishin using, or Kurama empowered, A was the fastest in the world. Guy never had a feat near A's.



> Wow, you really need proof to believe that 7th Gated Gai > Raikage in terms of speed?


Since A had the best feats in that regard in comparison. Show Seventh Gated Guy dodging Amaterasu, one of the fastest techniques in the manga, and we'll talk.



> Gai punches her in the head and makes her head roll or whips her unconscious with his nun-chucks.


Tsunade was still conscious after being fucking RIPPED in half. Guy can't knock her out. Stop wanking.



> There's no point in debating this any further if you can't accept that 7th Gated Gai > Tsunade. You assumed that Gai would lose because Tsunade has the same roof tier in taijutsu but ignored the fact that Gai in his base form without the gates is 1.5 tiers ahead of her in speed.


Doesn't mater if Guy's faster, Tsunade's skill makes up the advantage. Not only that, Tsunade's regen keeps her in the fight.

You're downplay of the Gokage, Tsunade and A in general, and your wank of Guy really is unsightly Ryuzaki.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 19, 2015)

> ONLY Eight Gated Guy is faster than A. Unless you're Rikudo, full Gates unleashed, Hiraishin using, or Kurama empowered, A was the fastest in the world. Guy never had a feat near A's.


A's greatest feat is avoiding Amaterasu.

6th Gated Lee outpaced Goudama, a faster ninjutsu than Amaterasu (requires double-Kamui to escape from considerable distance separation, barely worked).

Kazekage Gaara said his movements were inhuman, this the same ninja that fought Edo Madara while alongside A. 7th Gated Gai is enough to impress him to the point of suggesting he was another species, even after seeing those two ninja in action. 

Judara struck down FTG SM Minato instantly- but he chooses to pace back and block the strikes of Gai, for what purpose? [1]. You'll also notice he creates 4 after images in plain view. 

Why did he even let him move into close quarters without striking him down in transit? There's no logic to Judara "allowing" Gai to punch at him in close quarters.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> A's greatest feat is avoiding Amaterasu.
> 
> 6th Gated Lee outpaced Goudama, a faster ninjutsu than Amaterasu (requires double-Kamui to escape from considerable distance separation).
> 
> Kazekage Gaara said his movements were inhuman, this the same ninja that fought Edo Madara while alongside A.


And yet, he never landed a blow on Juubi Jin Madara.


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## Jad (Jul 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And yet, he never landed a blow on Juubi Jin Madara.



Technically Gai did land a blow albeit via a failed Hirudora explosion. Hence Madara skidding backwards so violently. Even he could not outrun the blast.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kishi introduced KCM-Naruto's Yellow-Flash Shunshin before that statement, which turned out to be faster than Ei's max-speed. So that right there shuts down your argument.


We actually didn't know if that shunshin was on par with A's speed or not. Neither did A because it was the first time he was seeing it. It was a power Naruto attained literally minutes ago(in that sense it was the first time everyone, including us, was seeing it on action).* And the whole point of that encounter was to show that Naruto was actually fast enough to dodge A's max speed.* So yeah, try again.



> He kept up with a Juubi Jinchuuriki who is eons above any MS users, like what the fuck are you smoking dude.


Kept up ? You mean got 1 shot.

And what does that prove exactly ?


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And yet, he never landed a blow on Juubi Jin Madara.


And yet Juubi Jin Madara never landed a blow on 7th Gated Gai.

I can say the same thing.

Did you prove anything by making that comment? No.

Did I prove something with mine? Yes- the only other shinobi to survive a close quarter exchange with Juubi Jinchuriki Madara were Rikudo-enhanced ninja (Obito, Sasuke, Naruto).

Ei is slower than 7th Gated Gai, hell- he might be slower than 6th Gated Gai if we are considering his truthseeker-saving feat of Kakashi and the fact Gated Lee's best feat is superior to A's best feat.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We actually didn't know if that shunshin was on par with A's speed or not.


And we didn't know Gai's 7th-Gate was much faster than Ei, until after that statement was made and he fought Juubidara. So that point is moot.



> Neither did A because it was the first time he was seeing it. It was a power Naruto attained literally minutes ago(in that sense it was the first time everyone, including us, was seeing it on action).* And the whole point of that encounter was to show that Naruto was actually fast enough to dodge A's max speed..*


*
I'm sorry, but this just seems like double standards to me. When it comes to KCM-Naruto's Shunshin  whether Ei knows about it or not matters, but not when it comes to Gai's speed in 6th/7th Gate, you accuse me of nitpicking for bring it up.




			Kept up ? You mean got 1 shot.
		
Click to expand...

Here's what happened. Gai opens 7th Gate and attacks Juubidara so fast, Juubidara is shocked by his speed . They then go mono on mono in Taijutsu for a bit, and Gai uses AT, which Madara blocks with his Gododama staff and overwhelms Gai w/ Raw power. But Gai is never falls behind as far as speed goes and manages to shock Juubidara with his speed in a way that the much slower Edo Madara wasn't shocked by Ei




			And what does that prove exactly ?
		
Click to expand...

It proves he has a speed feat vastly excelling anything Ei was ever capable off.*


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2015)

So do you think Gai is faster than BM Naruto too?


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So do you think Gai is faster than BM Naruto too?


I think KCM/BM Naruto's speed fluctuates nonsensically, thus making it impossible to measure.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And we didn't know Gai's 7th-Gate was much faster than Ei,


But  he is not.
Its just your opinion that he is.



> until after that statement was made and he fought Juubidara. So that point is moot.


Its not moot because Gai's 7th gate is known and was seen in action, contrary to Naruto's newly attained mode.



> I'm sorry, but this just seems like double standards to me. When it comes to KCM-Naruto's Shunshin  whether Ei knows about it or not matters, but not when it comes to Gai's speed in 6th/7th Gate, you accuse me of nitpicking for bring it up.


Are you serious ? 
No one knew anything about Naruto's shunshin because he had just attained that power. It was his first test run.

Gai's 7th gate is known to many and was seein in action by us and manga characters.

So yes, contextually, when Kishi made that statement, it involved everything that was recorded by ninja history, again within context. Naruto's power wasn't recorded yet.




> Here's what happened. Gai opens 7th Gate and attacks Juubidara so fast, Juubidara is shocked by his speed . They then go mono on mono in Taijutsu for a bit, and Gai uses AT, which Madara blocks with his Gododama staff and overwhelms Gai w/ Raw power. But Gai is never falls behind as far as speed goes and manages to shock Juubidara with his speed in a way that the much slower Edo Madara wasn't shocked by Ei


Madara wasn't shocked. He simply didn't expect some nobody to come at him with 7 gates. Classic "I'm god I underestimate everyone" syndrome. 
If he was shocked by 7 gates, then he wouldn't make fun of Gai when he activated the 8th Gate.

Gai's feat doesn't put him above A.



> It proves he has a speed feat vastly excelling anything Ei was ever capable off.



This is a huge leap in logic, with no basis or whatsoever.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2015)

How does Biju Mode Naruto's speed fluctuate more than Gai's (or anyone else's)?

Regardless, whom do you think Kishi would say is faster?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So do you think Gai is faster than BM Naruto too?


Yep, according to what ive heard, hai is faster than naruto and ei.

This is the reaction of the supposed fastest man


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## Jad (Jul 19, 2015)

For me, A proclaiming himself the fastest current ninja was solely based off his fight with Minato. Tsunade not voicing her objectipn can stem from just believing A's statement due to his past. That and she probably doesn't know Gai's 7th Gate exploits since hardly if any enemies get out alive against him, based off his comments to Kisame. That and Gai probably doesn't share his skillset, hell Lee didn't know about Night Guy. Lee!!!


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2015)

It was Tsunade's job as Hokage to know what her people could do. 

Besides, even Yamato recognized Hirodura.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How does Biju Mode Naruto's speed fluctuate more than Gai's (or anyone else's)?


Do I really even have to explain how Naruto fluctuates from faster than Ei in KCM, to his BM not even demonstrating that speed at points.



> Regardless, whom do you think Kishi would say is faster?


I don't think Kishimoto knows or cares.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But  he is not.
> Its just your opinion that he is.


When Ei has anything even remote approaching Gai's feat against Juubidara we can talk about opinions.



> Its not moot because Gai's 7th gate is known and was seen in action, contrary to Naruto's newly attained mode.


We saw Naruto mode in action against Kisame. So no.



> Madara wasn't shocked. He simply didn't expect some nobody to come at him with 7 gates. Classic "I'm god I underestimate everyone" syndrome.
> If he was shocked by 7 gates, then he wouldn't make fun of Gai when he activated the 8th Gate.


Madara saw Gai use the 7th-Gate before for AT. Secondly if Madara was shocked by Gai opening the Gates, Idk, maybe he'd be shocked by gee Gai opening the gates. Rather what we get here is Madara being shocked when Gai exhibits his speed in 7th-Gate and appears right in-front of his face.



> This is a huge leap in logic, with no basis or whatsoever.


Except for Gai keeping up with a character who is eons faster than Ei.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2015)

If you don't think Kishimoto knows how Gai & Naruto stack up speed wise, then that'd mean that they're interchangeable. 

You'd have to think Naruto was capable of "keeping up" with Madara too (because Kishi knows that Gai can do what he did against Madara).


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 19, 2015)

Jad said:


> For me, A proclaiming himself the fastest current ninja was solely based off his fight with Minato. Tsunade not voicing her objectipn can stem from just believing A's statement due to his past. That and she probably doesn't know Gai's 7th Gate exploits since hardly if any enemies get out alive against him, based off his comments to Kisame. That and Gai probably doesn't share his skillset, hell Lee didn't know about Night Guy. Lee!!!



Not knowing about night guy is irrelevant because its an 8 gates move. Which is what people have already explained, 8 gates doesnt count because its a for idden jutsu that no one has seen or witnessed. Not even gai himself would fully know his capabilities in that form until he opens that gate.

Anyone trying to imply tsuande doesnt know about 7th gate and its capabilities is literally calling her a fool and a terrible hokage. Thats one of her jobs. 

Everyone around the ninja world who is worth mentioning builds reputation. Raikage got his reputation around the world based on feats he accomplished. Kakashi got his copy ninja moniker based on feats he accomplsiehd. Shisui was hailed around the world as shunshin no shisui and greatest genjutsu user and crap, gai was known as konohas blue beast blah blah blah.

Reputations are established and spread across the ninja world. Gais comrades know what he is capable of. Does anyone want to claim hat gais eternal rival doesnt know about 7 gate? Why has kakasho never called gai the fastest shinobi in the world? Why does kishi have to spoon feed information out to you people? Going beyond arms length to interpret the most basic facts as something else entirely.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If you don't think Kishimoto knows how Gai & Naruto stack up speed wise, then that'd mean that they're interchangeable.



No I think Kishimoto doesn't know or care to make Naruto's speed realistic. 



> You'd have to think Naruto was capable of "keeping up" with Madara too (because Kishi knows that Gai can do what he did against Madara).


I don't follow. But yeah it would not surprise me in the least if Naruto kept up with Madara, only to than later nonsensically be incapable of blitzing people that would therefore be eons bellow him.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> When Ei has anything even remote approaching Gai's feat against Juubidara we can talk about opinions.


Not being able to do anything to Juubidara is not a feat that we can talk about.

Evading Amaterasu and leaving an after image from a MS users perspective is a feat that we can however.



> We saw Naruto mode in action against Kisame. So no.


It was within closed doors, contextually, no one other than Kisame, B and Yamato knew about it.
And being able to blitz Kisame =/= being as fast as A.

Also you are deliberately ignoring that the whole point of Naruto and A's meeting was to show that Naruto was fast enough to dodge A's fastest punch. The whole encounter was made to legitamize Naruto's *new *power.

Naruto's power = New, not recorded by Ninja history
Gai's power = Old, recorded by Ninja history.

Do you understand the difference ? 


> Madara saw Gai use the 7th-Gate before for AT. Secondly if Madara was shocked by Gai opening the Gates, Idk, maybe he'd be shocked by gee Gai opening the gates. Rather what we get here is Madara being shocked when Gai exhibits his speed in 7th-Gate and appears right in-front of his face.


Like I said, Madara wasn't shocked by Gai's speed.
And if he thought 7th Gate Gai's speed was anything to be shocked about, then he'd literally shit his pants when Gai opened 8th, knowing that his speed would be alot faster.
The fact that he made fun of Gai, shows that he didn't think 7th Gai's speed was anything special. 

The only time Gai's speed got praised by Madara is when he used 8th Gate. 



> Except for Gai keeping up with a character who is eons faster than Ei.


That is a over statement in both parts.

Gai briefly engaged Madara in Taijutsu(which isn't madara's strong suit anyways) and then got 1 shot. 
Madara isn't eons faster than A either.


----------



## Rocky (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> But yeah it would not surprise me in the least if Naruto kept up with Madara, only to than later nonsensically be incapable of blitzing people that would therefore be eons bellow him.



Kind of like Gai.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Oh and I just want to say the Tsunade thing is dumb. Tsunade is not going to interrupt Ei's and Naruto's conversation to say, "well actually...Gai is the fastest man Ei, so like you can suck it." I.e. Tsunade is not going to start some off topic debate over who is faster between Gai and Ei, even if she had seen Gai's Max Speed in 7th-Gate and Ei's Max Speed, nether of which is confirmed. And just being Hokage is not going to give her that information, I mean others and Gai can report that Gai is fast as hell in 7th-Gate, but it's not like someone is standing there accurately calculating Gai's and Ei's speed down to miles per hour for Tsunade. Gai or Ei would need to ether outspeed each other or outspeed something the other was known incapable of outspeeding, and Tsunade would have to be privy to that information to make any kind of ruling on whose the fastest

And opening any Gates is a forbidden technique, so if a character like a Tsunade is not accounting for 8th-Gate due to it being forbidden than she wouldn't be counting any Gates.


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## Jad (Jul 19, 2015)

I don't remember any kage knowing detailed specific skillsets of each Shinobi or statements made about their speed/power. I've seen the closest of this are similar Databook charts and general information on each person, like when Tsunade lookedat Lee's info when she wanted to operate.

My pointing out of Lee not knowing about Night Guy was just an example of someone close not knowing everything about him. Lee however knew the specifics of Evening Elephant.  My point was to show that Gai's full skillet isn't known. So there is a chance Tsunade doesn't know of Gai's specific skillsett in full as well. Gai isn't well known apparently since Kisame and Pain didn't know him, having Itachi warn his comrades about him.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kind of like Gai.


Maybe in your fanfiction, but in the actual manga that does not happen.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not being able to do anything to Juubidara is not a feat that we can talk about.
> 
> Evading Amaterasu and leaving an after image from a MS users perspective is a feat that we can however.


Keeping up with Juubidara who blitz'd SM-Minato who was able to evade Ei's Max-Speed in Base is however something we can talk about.



> Do you understand the difference ?


There's no difference, just a double standard. Your saying intel matters for KCM, but not for 6th/7th-Gate. I call bullshit. If Ei not knowing about KCM matters, than you have to prove he knew about Gai's speed in 6th/7th Gate. End of story.



> Like I said, Madara wasn't shocked by Gai's speed.


Manga > You




> Madara isn't eons faster than A either.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Maybe in your fanfiction, but in the actual manga that does not happen.



Pain and Obito are two I can think of off the top of my head.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Keeping up with Juubidara who blitz'd SM-Minato who was able to evade Ei's Max-Speed in Base is however something we can talk about.



Juubidara casually blocked Gai's hits and then oneshot him. Sorta like how he oneshot SM Minato, whose body speed isn't anywhere near A's.
You can @ best argue that 7 gated Gai's body speed is around SM Minato's level, though that'd be underestimating Gai.



> There's no difference, just a double standard. Your saying intel matters for KCM, but not for 6th/7th-Gate. I call bullshit. If Ei not knowing about KCM matters, than you have to prove he knew about Gai's speed in 6th/7th Gate. End of story.



Ninja history didn't have a record on Naruto's KCM but it had it on Gai's gates.

Yes, end of story.




> Manga > You


Yeah.
[1]
[1]


>


Nice rebuttal.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree that Gai wasn't relevant to the conversation.
> But then, Kishi wouldn't make such an assertive statement if he thought there were faster people than A. That'd be lying to the reader for no reason. So he could have said "now that 4th is dead, me and that green beast from Konoha are the fastest." or something along those lines. I don't think anyone would consider that "stupid."



She didn't lie, she said nothing. Imagine it this way:

Ei: I'm the fastest man alive. I-
Tsunade: Hold! No, Ei, you're not. Didn't you check the information i gave you? It says that Gai's faster than you.
Ei: Shut up, Hokage! This is not the time for such a thing!

We might have different opinions on this, but on a serious matter, when Ei says he's even going to kill Naruto and Bee for the sake of the aliance and Tsunade is in the middle of a tough decision, coming on with that was not likely.



> But for the sake of the argument lets say Kishimoto thought Gai was faster and still made that statement, he'd most likely correct himself on a different occasion.
> Like during Gai vs Obito & Madara. Someone would come up and say how Gai is the fastest with 7th gate or something.
> 
> 
> Sure, but again, how is that relevant to A's statement ? No one proved him wrong.



He was proven wrong. I'm not of the ones that believes Gai pressured Madara, but the very thing we cannot deny here is the "Oh fucking shit" face that Madara had. Gai is not a known person, remember how low level of rank was Dai, even though Minato knew he could open gates? The very reason why Gai wasn't instantly one-shotted like Minato was because Gai proved to be way faster than what Madara expected. In fact, the very Kakashi and Minato, who knew how fast Ei was, didn't stop Gai to tell him that his speed wouldn't work.

The contrary, Minato was urging him to keep on without touching the black spheres when he saw Gai's movement speed, while the same Gaara, who knew Ei, didn't stop him either. I guess that scan speaks by itself.

Otherwise, i don't think they would've let him. Knowing that who they were facing, 


> Sure, but that statement was true when it was made. Thats what we are debating no ?
> Also Tsunade could have been updated when she returned to Konoha. As the Hokage she is obliged to know the militaristic potential of her village.



The eight gate was introduced in part 1. I'm just saying that ignorance doesn't make a statement true. Ei was saying he was the fastest man alive, while out there was a man in green suit being able to bent time and space with movement speed alone. How do we know Kishimoto didn't have the 8th gate's speed planned for Gai?

But even if it was retconned, it happened in the same arc where the statement was made, therefore story-wise, Ei was wrong. Tsunade could've been updated. What i doubt is knowing the exact speed Gai can achieve. I mean, they don't have speed meters in NV.

But that last sentence is just trying to find sense to a retcon. Because i go with Kishi retconning Gai after the war, just like he made Kakashi use Kamui without suffering the side-effects.



> Then why are we having this conversation ?



Just a little misunderstanding, i suppose. It happens.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> She didn't lie, she said nothing. Imagine it this way:
> 
> Ei: I'm the fastest man alive. I-
> Tsunade: Hold! No, Ei, you're not. Didn't you check the information i gave you? It says that Gai's faster than you.
> ...



The thing is, both A and Tsunade are created by the same guy and both of their words are Kishimoto's words.
So anything Tsunade knows, A knows as well.

If Gai was faster than A, then A would mentioned his name somewhere. It is as simple as that.



> He was proven wrong. I'm not of the ones that believes Gai pressured Madara, but the very thing we cannot deny here is the "Oh fucking shit" face that Madara had. Gai is not a known person, remember how low level of rank was Dai, even though Minato knew he could open gates? The very reason why Gai wasn't instantly one-shotted like Minato was because Gai proved to be way faster than what Madara expected. In fact, the very Kakashi and Minato, who knew how fast Ei was, didn't stop Gai to tell him that his speed wouldn't work.



Again, Gai being faster than A is opinion. Mostly bandwagoning, imo.
I don't think he is faster than A at all. And from a narrative perspective, nothing contradicted A's remark about his speed.

The only argument against that is "Oh my god Gai fought against Juubidara for approximately 1.2 seconds before he got 1 shot, so he must be faster than A ."
Sorry, but I can't take that argument seriously. 



> The contrary, Minato was urging him to keep on without touching the black spheres when he saw Gai's movement speed, while the same Gaara, who knew Ei, didn't stop him either. I guess that scan speaks by itself.
> 
> Otherwise, i don't think they would've let him. Knowing that who they were facing,


Yeaah no. I am not deriving the same conclusion you did from reading those panels.



> The eight gate was introduced in part 1. I'm just saying that ignorance doesn't make a statement true.



It was mentioned, not introduced. 
Only 5th gate was introduced in part 1, through an inferior shinobi to Gai.



> Ei was saying he was the fastest man alive, while out there was a man in green suit being able to bent time and space with movement speed alone. How do we know Kishimoto didn't have the 8th gate's speed planned for Gai?


Like I mentioned Gai didn't use 8th Gate before. 
So there is no chance anyone could have known how fast he'd be with 8th gate.



> But even if it was retconned, it happened in the same arc where the statement was made, therefore story-wise, Ei was wrong. Tsunade could've been updated. What i doubt is knowing the exact speed Gai can achieve. I mean, they don't have speed meters in NV.



They don't need speed meters. Just by looking at Sasuke's speed during the chuunin exam with naked eye, Gai was able to deduce that he was as fast as Lee. 



> But that last sentence is just trying to find sense to a retcon. Because i go with Kishi retconning Gai after the war, just like he made Kakashi use Kamui without suffering the side-effects.



You can argue that Gai was able to use 7th gate more liberally, but I don't see any reason to believe that there is a retcon regarding his speed.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since he's in the dome which MOVES around him? Seriously, forgot how the jutsu even worked?


6th Gate did this to the water and then Gai jumped out of the range of the water techniques. Afterwards, in his 3rd encounter with Kisame, Gai used the same 6th Gate to vaporize the water that was supposedly giving Kisame the edge. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ONLY Eight Gated Guy is faster than A. Unless you're Rikudo, full Gates unleashed, Hiraishin using, or Kurama empowered, A was the fastest in the world. Guy never had a feat near A's.


6th Gated Lee ripped through Edo Madara, Raikage on his good day couldn't reach him at all and only made a difference when Oonoki wanted him to. 7th Gated Gai with more experience and a large boost, is far faster than than Raikage. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade was still conscious after being fucking RIPPED in half. Guy can't knock her out. Stop wanking.


 Tsunade was cut in half, she didn't suffer a blow to the head, Gated Gai is stronger and faster than her, he knocks her out, if not ripping her out of existence. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't mater if Guy's faster, Tsunade's skill makes up the advantage. Not only that, Tsunade's regen keeps her in the fight.
> 
> You're downplay of the Gokage, Tsunade and A in general, and your wank of Guy really is unsightly Ryuzaki.


You are the only one outside of some rabid Tsunade fans that believes she'll e okay taking an onslaught that Kisame was subjected to and surviving.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> 6th Gate did this to the water and then Gai jumped out of the range of the water techniques. Afterwards, in his 3rd encounter with Kisame, Gai used the same 6th Gate to vaporize the water that was supposedly giving Kisame the edge.


Again, there's a difference between the Water Dome and the lake spat out. The water of the dome would rush back in and continue to follow Guy. Inside said dome, Guy can't get out. Its too big.


> 6th Gated Lee ripped through Edo Madara, Raikage on his good day couldn't reach him at all and only made a difference when Oonoki wanted him to. 7th Gated Gai with more experience and a large boost, is far faster than than Raikage.


That was Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee. You can't even remember the feat right to claim that Lee did it on his own (Naruto powered him up).

None of Guy's or Lee's feats put them above A. Its rubbish. Your wank is rubbish.


> Tsunade was cut in half, she didn't suffer a blow to the head, Gated Gai is stronger and faster than her, he knocks her out, if not ripping her out of existence.


You do realize that the bloodloss causes an effect similar to that of a concussion, right? Tsunade was conscious through that. And no, Gated Guy isn't stronger than her, I don't see him blowing apart Susano'o with just punches. 

And Tsunade can tank everything Guy hits her with. 


> You are the only one outside of some rabid Tsunade fans that believes she'll e okay taking an onslaught that Kisame was subjected to and surviving.


Tsunade has superior durability and tanking feats to Kisame! She fought a stronger opponent and lived! She fucking survived bisection and had more than enough chakra to heal her fellow Kages!

You're wanking Guy to the point of absurdity man. You forget feats and forget how the jutsus even work to give Guy a mythical advantage. You ignore Tsunade's regen. You forget how the dome fucking works. You don't provide feats when asked.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Juubidara casually blocked Gai's hits and then oneshot him. Sorta like how he oneshot SM Minato, whose body speed isn't anywhere near A's.
> You can @ best argue that 7 gated Gai's body speed is around SM Minato's level, though that'd be underestimating Gai.


Your being proactively dishonest by making this comparison, so i'm not going to bother arguing with trolling.



> Ninja history didn't have a record on Naruto's KCM but it had it on Gai's gates.
> 
> Yes, end of story.


Ninja history did have a record, it's called what B and Yamato saw. 



> Yeah.
> Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee.
> Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee.
> Quote:


Both things are irrelevant to the fact that Gai shocked and awed Juubidara with his speed, so try again.



> Nice rebuttal.


When you bring me shit like Juubidara is not much faster than Ei, there is no need for rebuttal, and quite frankly you should feel bad for even expecting one.



Rocky said:


> Pain and Obito are two I can think of off the top of my head.


Show me where Gai fought Obito or Pain with 6th/7th Gate. If you can't, like I said before, it's fanfiction.


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## Icegaze (Jul 19, 2015)

lol  what yamato and bee saw couldn't have been info that would have reached A 

who met up with Naruto right after Naruto escaped

terrible example 

btw: kishi the author did mention in the DB KCM speed rivals A RCM speed 

and both are beneath minato's

avoiding A punch doesn't automatically make Naruto faster. notice all A said is you avoided my fastest punch

Minato straight up counter attacked he didn't just avoid it 

to say KCM is undeniably faster he would have to blitz A without A being able to do anything about it 

eg: MS sasuke isn't faster than V1 A. he did however avoid and counter attack him


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again, there's a difference between the Water Dome and the lake spat out. The water of the dome would rush back in and continue to follow Guy. Inside said dome, Guy can't get out. Its too big.


Gai's aura busted through the and pushed the water back by his aura alone in both cases of 6th Gate and 7th Gate. Either way, Kisame also comments that his punches in 6th Gate were so fast that the friction between the air was actually vaporizing the water. 

Again, in no scenario does Gai lose to Kisame, Samehada or no Samehada.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That was Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee. You can't even remember the feat right to claim that Lee did it on his own (Naruto powered him up).



He was already in the Gates mode before the cloak came. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> None of Guy's or Lee's feats put them above A. Its rubbish. Your wank is rubbish.


7th Gated Gai > A, Edo Madara was a far slower than Pre-Shinju Madara and Gai pushed him back. Neither or any of the Gokage would manage that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize that the bloodloss causes an effect similar to that of a concussion, right? Tsunade was conscious through that. And no, Gated Guy isn't stronger than her, I don't see him blowing apart Susano'o with just punches.
> 
> And Tsunade can tank everything Guy hits her with.
> 
> Tsunade has superior durability and tanking feats to Kisame! She fought a stronger opponent and lived! She fucking survived bisection and had more than enough chakra to heal her fellow Kages!


A concussion is an immediate loss of consciousness due to an injury sustained to the head, bloodloss doesn't equate to this same effect because the brain isn't being injured. Gai has better skill and with gates uses more force, so he would be able to knock her unconscious with a few chops. 

Tsunade has the weakest durability, her healing powers are awesome but her body can be injured really quickly. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You're wanking Guy to the point of absurdity man. You forget feats and forget how the jutsus even work to give Guy a mythical advantage. You ignore Tsunade's regen. You forget how the dome fucking works. You don't provide feats when asked.


Tsunade's regeneration isn't instant and requires time to heal, a fact that most fans not unlike yourself, forget to include into her power. Gai was trapped under a larger lake and I've already explained that it nullifies Kisame's advantages.


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## LostSelf (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, both A and Tsunade are created by the same guy and both of their words are Kishimoto's words.
> So anything Tsunade knows, A knows as well.
> 
> If Gai was faster than A, then A would mentioned his name somewhere. It is as simple as that.



They are. I am just saying that it's not the time to enter irrelevant debates. Kishimoto could also save the time to show who's faster after. It doesn't have to necessarily be right there.


> Again, Gai being faster than A is opinion. Mostly bandwagoning, imo.
> I don't think he is faster than A at all. And from a narrative perspective, nothing contradicted A's remark about his speed.
> 
> The only argument against that is "Oh my god Gai fought against Juubidara for approximately 1.2 seconds before he got 1 shot, so he must be faster than A ."
> Sorry, but I can't take that argument seriously.



He fought Madara argument or he surprise Juudara, who wasn't even faced by Ei's speed, argument? Because, honestly, only denial would say that Juudara wasn't incredibly surprised by Gai's speed. So i disagree with bandwagon opinion.


> Yeaah no. I am not deriving the same conclusion you did from reading those panels.



Ok then. It's my view on the subject, not counting Madara's reaction, wich is canon.



> It was mentioned, not introduced.
> Only 5th gate was introduced in part 1, through an inferior shinobi to Gai.
> 
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter. Ignorance doesn't make Ei right. Gai could use 8th gate at the time, story-wise. Ei was wrong. Is as simple as that.



> They don't need speed meters. Just by looking at Sasuke's speed during the chuunin exam with naked eye, Gai was able to deduce that he was as fast as Lee.



Leaving this part out considering i said was trying to find some sense to what i see as a retcon and i explained the theory above.



> You can argue that Gai was able to use 7th gate more liberally, but I don't see any reason to believe that there is a retcon regarding his speed.



Considering that Gai did what Ei couldn't with Edo Madara, wich had a lot of troubles dodging Susano'o clones, and Ei's statement should've been true, then i do see it as a retcon.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Your being proactively dishonest by making this comparison, so i'm not going to bother arguing with trolling.


Seems to me that you are the one in denial here.
You keep repeating that "Gai kept up with Juubidara" and completely neglecting the part where Juubidara oneshot him the same way he oneshot Minato.
I'm the one who is dishonest ? Really ?



> Ninja history did have a record, it's called what B and Yamato saw.


Yamato probably didn't have enough time to report Naruto's feat to the archives and B didn't say anything until Naruto and A duked it out for real. So he probably didn't lay the final verdict up until he saw Naruto dodge A's fastest punch. If you re-read that part, B is surprised and horrified, wihch means he was worried that Naruto couldn't have dodged it and was surprised that he did. So it means B didn't think Naruto was fast enough when he blitzed Kisame.

What we know for a fact : 
1 - We, the reader, didn't know how fast Naruto actually was, up until he and A duked it out.
2 - Naruto's power was fairly new so no one knew about it except for Yamato and B, and they surely didn't know his limits and what he was capable of .




> Both things are irrelevant to the fact that Gai shocked and awed Juubidara with his speed, so try again.


Like I said, Madara was underestimating him. He was only worried when he actually witnessed 8th gates speed. Which means he wasn't awed by 7th gate. 



> When you bring me shit like Juubidara is not much faster than Ei, there is no need for rebuttal, and quite frankly you should feel bad for even expecting one.


Well if you bring me overexaggerated shit like "Juubidara is aeons faster than A" then that'll be my reply, naturally.

edit : 

Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee.
As you can see here, Yamato's report about Naruto came in after A left the HQ.
And as far as the report is concerned, his speed would be pretty vague, considering he couldn't control it well and he only blitzed Kisame.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 19, 2015)

^ Grimmjow, Madara did underestimate him because he said: "You're underestimating me if you aren't using the red steam" - However, he was also taken a surprise by his speed, you can't discount that. Because if he couldn't really throw in a punch in the first several strikes by Gai.


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## Icegaze (Jul 19, 2015)

tsunade without byakuyo rusty and in part 1 took 3 strikes from kusanagi and remained very conscious 
1 was to the heart 

so gai knocking her out with basic gated punches with zero feats of knocking anyone out is a hilarious joke


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> ^ Grimmjow, Madara did underestimate him because he said: "You're underestimating me if you aren't using the red steam" - However, he was also taken a surprise by his speed, you can't discount that. Because if he couldn't really throw in a punch in the first several strikes by Gai.



Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee.
Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee.
> Version 1 Cloak Lee, NOT Six Gated Lee.


I think you guys are dulling it down way too much in response to many people blowing it out of proportion but it's not a stretch to say that 7th Gated Gai > A in terms of speed. He also jumped into save Kakashi from a truthseeker.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

@Grimmjowsensei

Yamato didn't have enough time to report Naruto's feat to the archives LOL. What archives LOL, the archives of double standards? I just can't even...i'm done with this fanfiction.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> Yamato didn't have enough time to report Naruto's feat to the archives LOL. What archives LOL, the archives of double standards? I just can't even...i'm done with this fanfiction.



The thing is, a feat gets recognition in time. Like when C commented on Sasuke's enton, and compared it to Itachi's Amaterasu. Obviously someone who witnessed Itachi's amaterasu spread the information around, thats why certain characters knew about it.

When A said "I'm the fastest guy around", he was obviously speaking based on his own experience and reputation of others. 

How do you think Naruto'S KCM fit in any of that criteria ? It was the first time A was seeing KCM and Naruto had 0 reputation with KCM. No one in the ninja world knew about it.

On the other hand, Gai and his gates are known by others.

You are being too stubborn about this. You have no argument, just conjecture based on pretty much nothing. 




Ryuzaki said:


> I think you guys are dulling it down way too much in response to many people blowing it out of proportion but it's not a stretch to say that 7th Gated Gai > A in terms of speed. He also jumped into save Kakashi from a truthseeker.



Interception feats don't count.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gai's aura busted through the and pushed the water back by his aura alone in both cases of 6th Gate and 7th Gate. Either way, Kisame also comments that his punches in 6th Gate were so fast that the friction between the air was actually vaporizing the water.


And that was only the initial effect, Ryuzaki. It vanished when the gates stabilized.



> Again, in no scenario does Gai lose to Kisame, Samehada or no Samehada.[/quote[
> Samehada heals any damage Guy does and Kisame just starts laying into him.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, a feat gets recognition in time. Like when C commented on Sasuke's enton, and compared it to Itachi's Amaterasu. Obviously someone who witnessed Itachi's amaterasu spread the information around, thats why certain characters knew about it.
> 
> When A said "I'm the fastest guy around", he was obviously speaking based on his own experience and reputation of others.
> 
> ...


So again the argument rests on whether Ei knew about Gai's exact speed in 6th/7th Gate or not. You say he did. Now prove it.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Show me where Gai fought Obito or Pain with 6th/7th Gate. If you can't, like I said before, it's fanfiction.



He had access to them.

It's the same as you bitching about BM Naruto's speed being "inconsistent" because he doesn't use Shunshin even though he has access to it.


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## Sferr (Jul 19, 2015)

Gaara was extremely surprised when he saw Gai's speed, meaning he did not know what Gai was capable of in 7th Gate. Gaara is a Kage and was one of the generals of alliance army, meaning he should not have had any less knowledge about the abilities of shinobis from different villages than A. Hence, A didn't know the abilities of Gai.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Gaara was extremely surprised when he saw Gai's speed, meaning he did not know what Gai was capable of in 7th Gate. Gaara is a Kage and was one of the generals of alliance army, meaning he should not have had any less knowledge about the abilities of shinobis from different villages than A. Hence, A didn't know the abilities of Gai.



All you've proven with that shitty logic is that Gaara doesn't know shit, which we knew already. He lives in the middle of the desert and he is 16.



Turrin said:


> So again the argument rests on whether Ei knew about Gai's exact speed in 6th/7th Gate or not. You say he did. Now prove it.



You should ask Kishimoto, he made the statement not me.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You should ask Kishimoto, he made the statement not me.


Ei made the statement, not Kishi. However Kishi was the one who decided to immediately illustrate that Ei was mistaken through Naruto.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Ei made the statement, not Kishi. However Kishi was the one who decided to immediately illustrate that Ei was mistaken through Naruto.



A's statement didn't involve Naruto. And even if he was, he didn't prove A wrong. Not that this has anything to do with Gai.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 19, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And that was only the initial effect, Ryuzaki.* It vanished when the gates stabilized.*
> 
> Samehada heals any damage Guy does and Kisame just starts laying into him.


Gai did this and this and maintained it long enough for him to land his AT. I can't believe you are arguing manga fact. Gai > Kisame multiple times over, w/ or w/o Samehada he gets shit-stomped.

Also, Kisame would never be able to touch Gai with his shitty Kakuzu-level of speed.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No he wasn't.


Excuse me both Lee and Gai were in 5th Gate, not 6th, none the less, proves my point further.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Guy didn't do shit against Juubi Jin Madara. 'Pushed him back', Hinata pushed Deva Path back yet its not considered a speed feat for her or a battle feat.
> 
> All Guy did was the equivalent of what Hinata did to Deva Path.
> 
> Not to mention against Edo Madara messed Guy's shit up.


He pushed Pre-Shinju Madara w/AT, that's more than what any of the Gokage would be able to manage.


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ..*.concussions don't always end with a loss of consciousness*, that's strike one. Bloodloss causes an similar effect. And no, he really can't. Stop downplaying.


Did you become a neurosurgeon overnight? 
"The formal medical definition of concussion is a clinical syndrome characterized by *immediate and transient alteration in brain function, including alteration of mental status and level of consciousness, resulting from mechanical force or trauma*." - American Association of Neurological Surgeons​The people that wrote the book on it, disagree with you as do I.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade fucking survived lightspeed travel. Tsunade tanked Yasaka Magatama. Tsunade tanked Susano'o blows. She's not weak in durability at all. HELL, she fucking tanked Cho Shinra Tensei!


Again, it's thanks to her healing ability not her durability, she's gets hurt or injured just as easily as anyone else. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> According to your logic, Guy can knock Hashirama out despite his own healing power being on the same level as Tsunade's Byakugo. And Kisame's Water Dome >>>> 30% Kisame's lake.


False, Tsunade's Byakugo is not enhanced by Senjutsu, whereas Hashirama's is.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gai did this and this and maintained it long enough for him to land his AT. I can't believe you are arguing manga fact. Gai > Kisame multiple times over, w/ or w/o Samehada he gets shit-stomped.
> 
> Also, Kisame would never be able to touch Gai with his shitty Kakuzu-level of speed.


Kisame touched and reacted to Guy in both fights. And I love how you ignore the regen factor. Seriously, Guy beat a gimped Kisame, twice, so he can beat a full powered one.



> Excuse me both Lee and Gai were in 5th Gate, not 6th, none the less, proves my point further.


Lee and Guy weren't IN the Gates when Naruto powered them up. See? Lee in Gates right after Neji's deaththen Naruto powers him up.

You've proven absolutely nothing. Lee only accomplished that feat with Naruto's chakra.


> He pushed Pre-Shinju Madara w/AT, that's more than what any of the Gokage would be able to manage.


He did fucking diddly squat against Juubi Madara! AT did nothing! Madara jumped back on his own accord, he deflected AT like it was a nuisance FLY. I mean i swear to go, are you this fucking blinded by Guy's awesomeness, you can't admit he didn't do anything against Juubi Madara?


> Did you become a neurosurgeon overnight?
> "The formal medical definition of concussion is a clinical syndrome characterized by *immediate and transient alteration in brain function, including alteration of mental status and level of consciousness, resulting from mechanical force or trauma*." - American Association of Neurological Surgeons​The people that wrote the book on it, disagree with you as do I.
> 
> Again, it's thanks to her healing ability not her durability, she's gets hurt or injured just as easily as anyone else.


My friend got a concussion and didn't lose consciousness. When dealing with a concussion, you have to keep the patient CONSCIOUS to prevent brain damage. 



> False, Tsunade's Byakugo is not enhanced by Senjutsu, whereas Hashirama's is.


Madara explicitly says Tsunade's Byakugo is on the same level as Hashirama's healing ability.

You've been a lot of wrong here Ryuzaki...stop being blinded by Guy's awesomeness and actually remember his limitations.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> All you've proven with that shitty logic is that Gaara doesn't know shit, which we knew already. He lives in the middle of the desert and he is 16.



So, let me get this straight, Gaara, a commander and Kage, didn't get the shared info and knows shit. But Ei got the shared info and knew everything.

Double standards, maybe?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> So, let me get this straight, Gaara, a commander and Kage, didn't get the shared info and knows shit. But Ei got the shared info and knew everything.
> 
> Double standards, maybe?


A is the Supreme Commander, would make sense he got more knowledge.


----------



## Blu-ray (Jul 20, 2015)

No. The 8th gate was specifically noted to give him power that exceeds the Gokage, something that would be redundant if the 7th gave it to him as well. 

That and I don't see how a tech that failed to even knock out Kisame is gonna kill Ei, Tsunade and Gaara, and Gai sure as hell isn't faster than Ay is 7th gate when the likes of Kisame is reacting to him.

In any even Gai gets overwhelmed.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> So, let me get this straight, Gaara, a commander and Kage, didn't get the shared info and knows shit. But Ei got the shared info and knew everything.
> 
> Double standards, maybe?



Let me repeat myself. Gaara is a 16 year old who lives in the middle of the desert. 

A is a 50 year old war veteran and the leader of a more resourceful and a more powerful village.

Are you saying that A having more knowledge than Gaara is baseless ? 

And Gaara being surprised by Gai's speed doesn't mean he lacked the knowledge.


----------



## Sferr (Jul 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Let me repeat myself. Gaara is a 16 year old who lives in the middle of the desert.
> 
> A is a 50 year old war veteran and the leader of a more resourceful and a more powerful village.
> 
> ...



Zetsu himself had no idea who Gai was and if even he did know about him and did not think it was necessary to find out, then for sure A didn't as well. A might have acquired all the information about the abilities of everyone in the army just before the war but I extremely doubt he somehow got more info than Gaara.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Zetsu himself had no idea who Gai was and if even he did know about him and did not think it was necessary to find out, then for sure A didn't as well. A might have acquired all the information about the abilities of everyone in the army just before the war *but I extremely doubt he somehow got more info than Gaara*.



Pure conjecture based on literally nothing.

A may have known about Gai long before they formed an alliance. He knew about Kakashi's Chidori afterall.

Also it doesn't matter how and when he got that information.

For you to dismiss a bold statement like A's(I'm the fastest guy, now  that the 4th is dead), you have to have a pretty damn good reason.


----------



## Sferr (Jul 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pure conjecture based on literally nothing.
> 
> A may have known about Gai long before they formed an alliance. He knew about Kakashi's Chidori afterall.
> 
> ...



It is based on common sense. If you argue that A should have received the knowledge about everyone's ability before the war as he is the commander of the alliance army, than Gaara should have received it as well based on exactly the same reason. 

And are you seriously comparing the notability of Kakashi - one of the most famous shinobi in Narutoverse and Gai - a shinobi who even for _the_ best spy in the manga (Zetsu) was an unknown entity?

I can dismiss it because it was flat out false as 8 Gates exists. You can argue that Kishi was going meta and telling through A's words about the speed levels in the manga at that moment but _in-universe _ A was not right as at that moment both Naruto and Gai exceeded him. That is, unless you want to argue that A is faster than Gai in 8 Gates.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2015)

Sferr said:


> It is based on common sense.



Common sense = A knew about Gai, or Gai wasn't famous enough to make a reputation for speed. Eitherway he is slower than A.



> If you argue that A should have received the knowledge about everyone's ability before the war as he is the commander of the alliance army, than Gaara should have received it as well based on exactly the same reason.


Thats not my argument at all. But even through that perspective, A being the supreme commander(a higher rank than a general), he would have access to more information.



> And are you seriously comparing the notability of Kakashi - one of the most famous shinobi in Narutoverse and Gai - a shinobi who even for _the_ best spy in the manga (Zetsu) was an unknown entity?


Yes.
Preskip even people like Jiraiya and Kakashi didn't know about Amaterasu. Hell, even zetsu implied that seing Amaterasu was rare occasion(unknown whether he saw it or heard about it) but during the summit arc, a guy like C talks as if it is common knowledge. Even Temari and Kankuro knew about it. 
As techniques are introduced to the reader, the author will treat it like its common knowledge because the reader knows about it. 



> I can dismiss it because it was flat out false as 8 Gates exists. *You can argue that Kishi was going meta and telling through A's words about the speed levels in the manga at that moment *but _in-universe _ A was not right as at that moment both Naruto and Gai exceeded him. That is, unless you want to argue that A is faster than Gai in 8 Gates.



Thats exactly what happened, like with every single statement that was made before and after that.

Or do you really believe that when Zetsu claimed that Itachi was invincible with Totsuka, Yata and Susano'o, he was speaking about characters like Kaguya or Rikodou Sennin ? 

Come on. There is a thing called context. Don't ignore it.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

but all gaara said was those movements aren't human
the speed impressed him..however gaara didn't need to comment on A speed
madara already passed a comment about A speed

gaara also considered genin lee movement to be inhuman just saying


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 20, 2015)

Genin Lee's 5th Gated speed, you mean.

Elite Jounin Kakashi also commented "He's fast!", and that was a his non-weighted base speed.

1. War-arc Gaara suggested his movement was inhumane with a look of absolute awe, made no such comments about Mu, A, Joki Boy or Edo Madara
2. Judara had a surprised face on when Gai arrived at him
3. Gai was pushing him back, forcing Judara to block when, if he had the ability to- he would've simply stopped his first strike and tore off his arm with his super strength or slashed through his body

There's no level of logic that warrants Rinnegan, Juubi Jinchuriki Judara
1. Having a surprised look at Gai's arrival in front of him if he was not surprised
2. Being pushed back by Gai and forced to block multiple strikes, instead of simply splitting him in half the moment he appeared in front of him, which is what he did to SM Minato

I fail to understand the refusal to agree with what is drawn on panel. Kishimoto is clearly alluding to the fact that 7th Gated Gai is extremely fast with
1. Gaara's comment
2. Judara's look of surprise as Gai arrived in front of him without reaction
3. Judara needing to go on the defensive for multiple strikes, and failing to severely damage Gai in the exchange

There is a 0% chance A is capable of
1. Shunshining across that distance arriving at Judara before Judara reacts with some form of counter attack (Truthseeker, Staff Swing, Border Jail)
2. Forcing Judara to move back blocking multiple strikes
3. Ending any hint of a close quarter exchange with Judara without being killed in the process

On top of this, we have the facts that 
1. 6th (possibly lower) Gated Lee dodged a Truthseeker while carrying Gai- which Double Kamui was needed to barely escape from over 50m
2. Pre-7th Gated Gai arrived at Kakashi and removed him from it's trajectory & explosive radius before said Truthseeker moved 1m closer to kill him


----------



## Santoryu (Jul 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm surprise to see people think he wins this. It wasn't that long ago that Gai was considered equal to Kakashi until he used the 8th gate, and this was even after the Jubidara feats.
> 
> What happened?



Nothing. Kakashi also solos them. 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Trojan (Jul 20, 2015)

I am honestly surprised that SuperSaiyaMan12 is debating against the Gai Wank. 
I remember having different opinions in that regard, or was that only about the Kakashi Wank.. 

-----

Gai solos all the characters combined anyway. It's obvious that the 7th Gate is as powerful as the 8th Gate
and makes you more powerful than the Gokage! 




There, LostSelf, I did the Gai Wank as you wanted!


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame touched and reacted to Guy in both fights. And I love how you ignore the regen factor. Seriously, Guy beat a gimped Kisame, twice, so he can beat a full powered one.


Kisame could never move out of the way or properly stop Gai's attacks anytime he went in 6th Gate or 7th Gate. The regeneration is limited the only reason Kisame was able to do it multiple times was due to him absorbing such large quantities of Killer Bee's chakra. 7th Gated Gai is too fast for that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Lee and Guy weren't IN the Gates when Naruto powered them up. See? Lee in Gates right after Neji's deaththen Naruto powers him up.
> 
> You've proven absolutely nothing. Lee only accomplished that feat with Naruto's chakra.


How were they not? They attacked in 5th Gate and then Naruto gave them cloak. Where did it state that the 5th Gate was deactivated? I didn't see anything.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He did fucking diddly squat against Juubi Madara! AT did nothing! *Madara jumped back on his own accord*, he deflected AT like it was a nuisance FLY. I mean i swear to go, are you this fucking blinded by Guy's awesomeness, you can't admit he didn't do anything against Juubi Madara?


The part in bold is complete fan fiction, because he got hit by the wave and was pushed back. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> My friend got a concussion and didn't lose consciousness. When dealing with a concussion, you have to keep the patient CONSCIOUS to prevent brain damage.


Forgive me but I'll take the word of actual medical experts over your friend. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara explicitly says Tsunade's Byakugo is on the same level as Hashirama's healing ability.


Do we really have to talk about why Hashirama's senjutsu > Tsunade's byakugo? Because I think that point should be obvious. Madara mentioned it in the sense she could fight without using seals, but Hasirama's healing ability is far better and faster since he uses senjutsu and she doesn't.


----------



## Kai (Jul 20, 2015)

What a ridiculous thread 

I haven't read through the thread but already know a thread like this dissolves into Gai vsing individual members of the Gokage eventually.

Also, A is faster than 7th Gate Gai in pure movement speed.


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## Trojan (Jul 20, 2015)

Hashirama's healing abilities do not even have any feats to be putted with Tsunade's honestly.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Hashirama's healing abilities do not even have any feats to be putted with Tsunade's honestly.



Madara is a fine example, who was using Hashirama's senjutsu as a means of healing himself while he as taking on the Bijuu. But having feats doesn't matter because any senjutsu based healing ability > any normal based healing ability.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kisame could never move out of the way or properly stop Gai's attacks anytime he went in 6th Gate or 7th Gate. The regeneration is limited the only reason Kisame was able to do it multiple times was due to him absorbing such large quantities of Killer Bee's chakra. 7th Gated Gai is too fast for that.


Seventh Gated Guy hasn't done anything to put down a fused Kisame with Samehada, nor shown anything that can escape the water dome. 


> How were they not? They attacked in 5th Gate and then Naruto gave them cloak. Where did it state that the 5th Gate was deactivated? I didn't see anything.


Since I just showed you they weren't. Rock Lee and Guy powered down when the Juubi transformed and counter attacked, like how Naruto lost his Sage Mode. The pictures I've showed you show Rock Lee _wasn't_ in the Gates when he recieved Naruto's power up, yet you'll continue to claim he was won't you?


> The part in bold is complete fan fiction, because he got hit by the wave and was pushed back.


No, its not. How did he get 'hit' when he blocked it. Guy didn't do anything to Madara, its fan fiction to claim he did in the Seventh Gate.


> Forgive me but I'll take the word of actual medical experts over your friend.


And the medical experts agree. Even your own source doesn't say Loss of Consciousness happens every time. You've talked with football players who got concussions right? Only in severe concussions they pass out.



> Do we really have to talk about why Hashirama's senjutsu > Tsunade's byakugo? Because I think that point should be obvious. Madara mentioned it in the sense she could fight without using seals, but Hasirama's healing ability is far better and faster since he uses senjutsu and she doesn't.


...I posted you the link. Madara explicitly said Tsunade's Byakugo is on the same level as Hashirama's healing power. The manga flat out disproves you.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 20, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Madara is a fine example, who was using Hashirama's senjutsu as a means of healing himself while he as taking on the Bijuu. But having feats doesn't matter because any senjutsu based healing ability > any normal based healing ability.



the only thing Madara healed was Gaara's sand attack. Not sure how does that come even close
to Tsunade's feats.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the only thing Madara healed was Gaara's sand attack. Not sure how does that come even close
> to Tsunade's feats.



He also got batted around like a baseball on top of that, but I'm sure that definitely did leave an undesired effects


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Seventh Gated Guy hasn't done anything to put down a fused Kisame with Samehada, nor shown anything that can escape the water dome.


I've already proven that entering 6th or 7th Gate would nullify the dome and Kisame himself even mentioned that the attacks from 6th Gate were hot enough to vaporize the water. I don't understand the issue.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, its not. How did he get 'hit' when he blocked it. Guy didn't do anything to Madara, its fan fiction to claim he did in the Seventh Gate.


The pressure of the attack pushed Madara back, notice the distance in the link you posted and when they were free.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And the medical experts agree. Even your own source doesn't say Loss of Consciousness happens every time. You've talked with football players who got concussions right? Only in severe concussions they pass out.


But you're not applying it to the match appropriately, Gai's punch is going to be tougher and stronger than all blows to the head. Him punch her in the head will lead to a concussion of the highest order. I've already established that her durability is rather weak so I cannot see her remaining conscious at all.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...I posted you the link. Madara explicitly said Tsunade's Byakugo is on the same level as Hashirama's healing power. The manga flat out disproves you.


Madara stated that due in reference to the usage of seals, not the actual proficiency of the jutsu, which would be better with the person using senjutsu.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Genin Lee's 5th Gated speed, you mean.
> 
> Elite Jounin Kakashi also commented "He's fast!", and that was a his non-weighted base speed.
> 
> ...



part 1 kakashi was also surprised by genin sasuke trying to get the bells from him. on 2 separate occasions kakashi shows surprise 

so nothing different here

1 on 1 with tsunade he can only tire her out to win. with the backup she got here they murder gai simply put 

you keep talking about juudara like, juudara was spamming BD, using PS or omyoton 

Hinata also pushed back deva path till he used ST

I don't see the big whoop here. its not like juudara made some comment about how gai speed was too impressive for him to defend himself.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 20, 2015)

True, kakashi never pushed back deva path pain, but hinata did.

So i guess hinata is faster and stronger an kakashi = confirmed?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I've already proven that entering 6th or 7th Gate would nullify the dome and Kisame himself even mentioned that the attacks from 6th Gate were hot enough to vaporize the water. I don't understand the issue.


Since both unlockings of the gates are temporary effects. The dome is far, far, FAR larger than the lake which the Sixth Gate blew away, and moves around him.


> The pressure of the attack pushed Madara back, notice the distance in the link you posted and when they were free.


No, that's just Madara leaping back. It didn't do a damn thing to him. Especially since Hirudora couldn't knock out Kisame or barely kept Edo Madara down (he was undamaged by it for god's sake). Common sense dictates Guy didn't force Juubi Madara back.



> But you're not applying it to the match appropriately, Gai's punch is going to be tougher and stronger than all blows to the head. Him punch her in the head will lead to a concussion of the highest order. I've already established that her durability is rather weak so I cannot see her remaining conscious at all.


Except her durability isn't 'weak'. For gods' sake, if it was she'd have been shredded by the light speed travel (more than just a few scratches) and Yasaka Magatama would have caused damage. Tsunade isn't weak in durability at all, that's downplay you're using on her to make Guy stronger than he really is.



> Madara stated that due in reference to the usage of seals, not the actual proficiency of the jutsu, which would be better with the person using senjutsu.


Madara said the two techniques were the same. He never brought up Senjutsu in the comparison. Byakugo no Jutsu is the same level as Hashirama's healing power, manga flat out says it.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A is the Supreme Commander, would make sense he got more knowledge.



They shared info, it's said. Supreme Commander or not, why wouldn't Gaara get the info?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Let me repeat myself. Gaara is a 16 year old who lives in the middle of the desert.
> 
> A is a 50 year old war veteran and the leader of a more resourceful and a more powerful village.
> 
> ...



Who cares where they live? It's not like the visit each other everyday. And even then, the sand has a closer bond to Konoha than Kumo.

But that's not the point. The point is the shared Info. That Gaara, a commander, should've gotten too. So, assuming Gaara didn't know shit before the war is ok. But assuming that Gaara didn't get info is another thing.

He should've gotten the same info Ei got, or similar. I seriously doubt Gaara or any of his advisors would be cool with giving their shinobis information to another village and the Kazekage or his people not getting the same in return, because by that time, the villages didn't trust the other that much still.

Yes, Ei having more info than Gaara is baseless because of the reason stated above. I'm not talking about general info over the years, because we don't even know if Ei knew Gai. I'm talking about the shared info that the villages shared.

And yes, Gaara being surprised with his speed is not something to overlook.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> They shared info, it's said. Supreme Commander or not, why wouldn't Gaara get the info?


Since while Gaara is the commander of the forces on the ground, his primary responsibility was the Fourth Division. He knows the best about the ninja within his own division (which is why he chose Shikamaru has his Proxy Commander), while Guy was in the Third Division. A is the leader of the _entire_ Alliance. He'd have been given the most information of what the ninja under him can do.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since while Gaara is the commander of the forces on the ground, his primary responsibility was the Fourth Division. He knows the best about the ninja within his own division (which is why he chose Shikamaru has his Proxy Commander), while Guy was in the Third Division. A is the leader of the _entire_ Alliance. He'd have been given the most information of what the ninja under him can do.




Gaara nor his advisors would give the entire information on their shinobis without getting the same in return. Or all of them got the same information, or all of them got not exact information. But war and all that, the president of a country won't give all his info without the others giving theirs to him.

Because we all know how precious information is, and how much it affects a village if the enemy has it.

Remember what Haku said they do to the bodies of the missing nin? That precious it is.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

wait does the manga say byakuyo= hashirama healing

then again byakuyo did heal from omyoton so am not surprised 

even edo tensei couldn't heal from omyoton


----------



## Sferr (Jul 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Common sense = A knew about Gai, or Gai wasn't famous enough to make a reputation for speed. Eitherway he is slower than A.


Gai has not earned any reputation whatsoever. Outside Konoha he has a reputation of a random fodder. Which does not change the fact that he oneshotted an Akatsuki member and is stronger than even kages. The logic that he would have been known for his speed if he was faster than A does not work with Gai.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats not my argument at all. But even through that perspective, A being the supreme commander(a higher rank than a general), he would have access to more information.


That does not make sense and LostSelf perfectly explained why.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes.
> Preskip even people like Jiraiya and Kakashi didn't know about Amaterasu. Hell, even zetsu implied that seing Amaterasu was rare occasion(unknown whether he saw it or heard about it) but during the summit arc, a guy like C talks as if it is common knowledge. Even Temari and Kankuro knew about it.
> 
> As techniques are introduced to the reader, the author will treat it like its common knowledge because the reader knows about it.


We witnessed Gai's speed in 7th Gate only in his fight against Juudara, long after A made his statement thus your argument that his speed became common knowledge does not work. And Gaara being surprised by what he saw also completely invalidates your argument. 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats exactly what happened, like with every single statement that was made before and after that.
> 
> Or do you really believe that when Zetsu claimed that Itachi was invincible with Totsuka, Yata and Susano'o, he was speaking about characters like Kaguya or Rikodou Sennin ?
> 
> Come on. There is a thing called context. Don't ignore it.


Then stop claiming that A knew what he was saying because it's an actual *fact* that he was wrong and that Gai was faster than him at that point. The only thing you can argue about is whether Kishi went meta and disregarded 8th Gate or not.  But if we start looking at 'meta' statements about Gai's power then Gai<<<<<exhausted Deva which is laughable.


----------



## Jad (Jul 20, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> True, kakashi never pushed back deva path pain, but hinata did.
> 
> So i guess hinata is faster and stronger an kakashi = confirmed?



Deva backed up. Whether you think it didn't happen or not, it did. Hinata (on love crack future wife mode) was using Twin lion Gentle fist, meaning not backing up,  underestimating your opponent,  and taking a nip to the body would detrimentally cause internal damage. Understand the context of the situation not just Kakashi > Hinata, but Hinata made Deva backup, therefore feat us invalid. It happened, it's valid, especially when you understand how the different scenarios played out.

The difference between Gai and Juubidara was Gai was just using Taijutsu and managed to push back a guy who was infinitely stronger than anyone else. The level between Hinata and Deva is waaay closer thsn Juubidara and Gai. And given the difference in techniques between Gai and Hinata it's obvious.

Tl;tr Hinata used massive glowing arms that if being nipped can cause massive internal damage. Deva backed up for good reason. Juubidara was being backed up with pure strength and speed. If Gsi clin 7th Gate can't shatter Sasuno rib cage, and Juubidara blicked hus strike, he would have stopped the exchange and bodied him.

Also Icegaze i do believe Hirudora at match start is faster than Tsunade summoning, Gaara mounting a defence with piddly gourd sand (i assume small amount of prep would be needed to collectively spread his sand and Chakra to the greater desert) and A mot knowing to dodge the BLAST RADIUS, would mean they all get caught. Hirudora travelled so fast it stopped Madara in mid point blank swing of hitting Naruto from several hundred meters.


Also. Kakashi with no sharingan who wasn't going to kill his student had a bit of trouble keeping Sasuke away from his bell, so what, it happened. You all saw he had trouble,  and when he found an opening bopped him. Juubidara was in kill mode serious and couldn't stop him until AFTER the Taijutsu exchange.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

Jad said:


> Deva backed up. Whether you think it didn't happen or not, it did. Hinata was using Twin lion Gentle fist, meaning not backing up,  underestimating your opponent,  and taking a nip to the body would detrimentally cause internal damage.
> 
> The difference between Gai and Juubidara was Gai was just using Taijutsu and managed to push back a guy who was infinitely stronger than anyone else. The level between Hinata and Deva is waaay closer thsn Juubidara and Gai. And given the difference in techniques between Gai and Hinata it's obvious.
> 
> Tl;tr Hinata used massive glowing arms that if being nipped can cause massive internal damage. Deva backed up for good reason. Juubidara was being backed up with pure strength and speed. If Gsi clin 7th Gate can't shatter Sasuno rib cage, and Juubidara blicked hus strike, he would have stopped the exchange and bodied him.


...there IS no difference. Hinata did the same thing to Deva Path that Guy did to Madara. Guy could barely immobilize a weakened Kisame, is that Kisame as strong or stronger than Juubi Madara? Guy didn't do ANYTHING to Juubi Madara, much less force him back with his strength within the Seventh Gate. The only time he did so...within the _Eighth_ Gate.


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## RBL (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...there IS no difference. Hinata did the same thing to Deva Path that Guy did to Madara. *Guy could barely immobilize a weakened Kisame*, is that Kisame as strong or stronger than Juubi Madara? Guy didn't do ANYTHING to Juubi Madara, much less force him back with his strength within the Seventh Gate. The only time he did so...within the _Eighth_ Gate.



wut bro,  gai faced kisame 3 times, 2 times using the eight gates, it took gai less than 5 seconds to put kisame in his place, shoten or not, not to say that gai didnt' want to kill kisame in their very last fight.


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## Jad (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...there IS no difference. Hinata did the same thing to Deva Path that Guy did to Madara. Guy could barely immobilize a weakened Kisame, is that Kisame as strong or stronger than Juubi Madara? Guy didn't do ANYTHING to Juubi Madara, much less force him back with his strength within the Seventh Gate. The only time he did so...within the _Eighth_ Gate.



You choose not to see the difference between Hinata's scenario and Gai's. However backing up a lot, from both scenarios means you are on the defensive because you are being pressured. Hintata pressured a serious Deva back. It happened. Why? Here comes the context: Hinata had a ghost lowing arms that if nipped causes massive internal damage. You using Hinata's feat as a way to devalue Gai's feat doesn't work. Different techniques were used, Gentle fist and Gouken. As for Gai's feat, he indeed pushed back Juudara, vigorously based on his opponent's body motion and cracks on the ground and speed Gai was moving at.

It happened.

as for Kisame statement, I don't understand. If Gai had Kisamehada in the same situation as Kisame in 507, and you truly believe Gai can't I inflict blunt force damage him.  Gai would know this first hand, and see his only option too impale a kunai in the head of the recovering shark. Although I have my reasons which I can't share on my phone nor waste my time convincing someone couple pages into the thread of debating against Gai, why his strength alone is enough. Refer to databook I guess on Kishimoto's potrayl and descriptions on MP and Hirudora.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

Jad said:


> You choose not to see the difference between Hinata's scenario and Gai's. However backing up a lot, from both scenarios means you are on the defensive because you are being pressured. Hintata pressured a serious Deva back. It happened. Why? Here comes the context: Hinata had a ghost lowing arms that if nipped causes massive internal damage. You using Hinata's feat as a way to devalue Gai's feat doesn't work. Different techniques were used, Gentle fist and Gouken. As for Gai's feat, he indeed pushed back Juudara, vigorously based on his opponent's body motion and cracks on the ground and speed Gai was moving at.


Different techniques, same situations. Both Hinata and Guy attacked a superior opponent, seemingly pushed them back, only to be owned when they tried to use their techniques. 

Guy in no way or means forced Juubi Madara back physically. Madara jumped back on his own accord, Guy didn't do diddly squat. 


> It happened.


In fan fiction. In the manga, Juubi Madara toyed with Guy, blocked his fastest punch and jumped away to launch his Gudodama at him.


> as for Kisame statement, I don't understand. If Gai had Kisamehada in the same situation as Kisame in 507, and you truly believe Gai can't I inflict blunt force damage him.  Gai would know this first hand, and see his only option too impale a kunai in the head of the recovering shark. Although I have my reasons which I can't share on my phone nor waste my time convincing someone couple pages into the thread of debating against Gai, why his strength alone is enough. Refer to databook I guess on Kishimoto's potrayl and descriptions on MP and Hirudora.


Kisame was still _conscious_ and able to move after Hirudora hit. According to you, if Seventh Gated Guy could physically overpower a fucking Juubi Jin...why wasn't Kisame *atomized* or turned into a bloody pulp? After all, it can overpower a Juubi Jin right? What's a Akatsuki member compared to that?


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since both unlockings of the gates are temporary effects. The dome is far, far, FAR larger than the lake which the Sixth Gate blew away, and moves around him.



can react to Amaterastu while fatigued
can react to Amaterastu while fatigued

It's about a few feet taller than the trees, Gai's 6th Gate aura started when he was at the bottom of a lake and his 7th Gate Aura was the same. In fact his 7th Gate aura stuck around for a little bit even after the match end.

So no, Kisame isn't touching him, Kisamehada or not.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, that's just Madara leaping back. It didn't do a damn thing to him. Especially since Hirudora couldn't knock out Kisame or barely kept Edo Madara down (he was undamaged by it for god's sake). Common sense dictates Guy didn't force Juubi Madara back.


Gai throw Edo Madara's Susano'o into the cliff, I don't know what you mean how he barely kept him down. PS Juubidara got pushed back by the wave, he didn't jump back or sideways. The force of the blast pushed him back, while it didn't break his guard, the force still pushed him back. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except her durability isn't 'weak'. For gods' sake, if it was she'd have been shredded by the light speed travel (more than just a few scratches) and Yasaka Magatama would have caused damage. Tsunade isn't weak in durability at all, that's downplay you're using on her to make Guy stronger than he really is.


She gets gut and injured just as easily as anyone, in every fight she has been in she's been bleeding or injured first. It's the way she fights, reckless and no regard for her life because she can afford to. Her durability isn't great by any standards, her healing power is what's great about her. I think everyone would agree to that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara said the two techniques were the same. He never brought up Senjutsu in the comparison. Byakugo no Jutsu is the same level as Hashirama's healing power, manga flat out says it.


The point of comparison was if the jutsu used seals or not, that's allt here is to it. Both Hashirama and Tsunade don't use seals to heal themselves, however, Hashirama's since he's using senjutsu would have a more effective form of healing.



LostSelf said:


> Gaara nor his advisors would give the entire information on their shinobis without getting the same in return. Or all of them got the same information, or all of them got not exact information. But war and all that, the president of a country won't give all his info without the others giving theirs to him.
> 
> Because we all know how precious information is, and how much it affects a village if the enemy has it.
> 
> Remember what Haku said they do to the bodies of the missing nin? That precious it is.



Putting things in perspective, at the time Minato was crowned Hokage both Gai/Kakashi were jounins at the time. Minato himself had no idea that Gai couldn't use the Gates.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> can react to Amaterastu while fatigued
> can react to Amaterastu while fatigued
> 
> It's about a few feet taller than the trees, Gai's 6th Gate aura started when he was at the bottom of a lake and his 7th Gate Aura was the same. In fact his 7th Gate aura stuck around for a little bit even after the match end.
> ...


And other pictures show it as tall as a fucking mountain. It dwarfed trees in thos shots too. Why do you constantly downplay characters in regards to Guy?!



> Gai throw Edo Madara's Susano'o into the cliff, I don't know what you mean how he barely kept him down. PS Juubidara got pushed back by the wave, he didn't jump back or sideways. The force of the blast pushed him back, while it didn't break his guard, the force still pushed him back.


Guy hit Edo Madara with a Hirudora that pinned him, but Edo Madara was undamaged by it. He was even sitting in the epicenter going 'oh well' from it! Juubi Madara was never pushed back by Hirudora, he jumped back. Only within the Eighth Gate Guy managed to overpower Juubi Madara. Seventh Gated Guy didn't do a damn thing and you know it, despite your wanking.



> She gets gut and injured just as easily as anyone, in every fight she has been in she's been bleeding or injured first. It's the way she fights, reckless and no regard for her life because she can afford to. Her durability isn't great by any standards, her healing power is what's great about her. I think everyone would agree to that.


No, she hasn't. Tsunade has shown incredible durability. Why are you fucking ignoring her feats?! Hell she was the only person unprotected during Cho Shinra Tensei and only a few bumps and bruises. She was virtually undamaged by it!

And again, her tanking feats, which you haven't even bothered countering, speak for themselves.


> The point of comparison was if the jutsu used seals or not, that's allt here is to it. Both Hashirama and Tsunade don't use seals to heal themselves, however, Hashirama's since he's using senjutsu would have a more effective form of healing.


Love how you're adding something to try to take a feat away from Tsunade. Her Byakugo is the same as Hashirama's healing power. Manga fact. All translations said it. Its why Madara amended his assessment on Tsunade.


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## LostSelf (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Putting things in perspective, at the time Minato was crowned Hokage both Gai/Kakashi were jounins at the time. Minato himself had no idea that Gai couldn't use the Gates.



Indeed. Like probably nobody knew Dai could use gates either. Thing is, a Kage is always popular. A Jounin, not so much. Even Kakashi was only famous for his Sharingan, a doujutsu that probably made people remember him above all of his abilities.

In other words, a Jounin might have it hard to be known among nations. You have to be wether a Kage or a missing nin.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Indeed. Like probably nobody knew Dai could use gates either. Thing is, a Kage is always popular. A Jounin, not so much. Even Kakashi was only famous for his Sharingan, a doujutsu that probably made people remember him above all of his abilities.
> 
> In other words, a Jounin might have it hard to be known among nations. You have to be wether a Kage or a missing nin.



Yeah the best thing they could know about Gai is that he's a taijutsu user tops, nothing more, nothing less.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 21, 2015)

...aren't the Gates PART of taijutsu?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Gai has not earned any reputation whatsoever. Outside Konoha he has a reputation of a random fodder. Which does not change the fact that he oneshotted an Akatsuki member and is stronger than even kages. The logic that he would have been known for his speed if he was faster than A does not work with Gai.


If Gai hasn't earned a reputation for his speed then he isn't faster than A. Its pretty simple. 
Eitherway, whether A knows about Gai or not, his speed is inferior, going by Kishimoto's statement.



> That does not make sense and LostSelf perfectly explained why.


Like I said, that is not why I claimed A would have more knowledge than Gaara in the first place. 
A is a 50 year old war veteran and a leader of a stronger village. He naturally has more knowledge and experience than Gaara.




> We witnessed Gai's speed in 7th Gate only in his fight against Juudara, long after A made his statement thus your argument that his speed became common knowledge does not work. And Gaara being surprised by what he saw also completely invalidates your argument.


Gaara being surprised by what he saw invalidates nothing. Speed is relative. From someone like Gaara's perspective, who is pretty weak physically compared to other people in his ballpark, Gai's movements may seem inhuman. Also he wasn't specifically referring to speed, but also his strength as well.




> Then stop claiming that A knew what he was saying because it's an actual *fact* that he was wrong


He wasn't wrong, because 8 Gated Gai wasn't introduced yet. Kishimoto assumes we have knowledge up to what we've seen up to that point.



> and that Gai was faster than him at that point. The only thing you can argue about is whether* Kishi went meta and disregarded 8th Gate or not.  *But if we start looking at 'meta' statements about Gai's power then Gai<<<<<exhausted Deva which is laughable.



Bold applies to every single statement made in this manga so far. Kishimoto can't assume we have knowledge on things he hasn't introduced yet, so when he says things like "I am the strongest" through his characters, he is only taking characters and powers he has shown into account within a certain context. 

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand here...



LostSelf said:


> Who cares where they live? It's not like the visit each other everyday. And even then, the sand has a closer bond to Konoha than Kumo.



It is important because Kumo is a more resourceful and powerful village and they were in a war with Konoha at some point. It is likely that shinobi from each village knew about each other.



> But that's not the point. The point is the shared Info. That Gaara, a commander, should've gotten too. So, assuming Gaara didn't know shit before the war is ok. But assuming that Gaara didn't get info is another thing.
> 
> He should've gotten the same info Ei got, or similar. I seriously doubt Gaara or any of his advisors would be cool with giving their shinobis information to another village and the Kazekage or his people not getting the same in return, because by that time, the villages didn't trust the other that much still.
> 
> Yes, Ei having more info than Gaara is baseless because of the reason stated above. I'm not talking about general info over the years, because we don't even know if Ei knew Gai. I'm talking about the shared info that the villages shared.


Fair enough, militaristic knowledge may have been shared equally. 



> And yes, Gaara being surprised with his speed is not something to overlook.


No one so far claimed that Gai with 7 gates is slow or weak, so no one is overlooking anything.
But thats the most you can get from that panel.That Gai is fast and strong. But we knew that already didn't we ?


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## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

@jad
Actually no difference between Hinata vs deva and Gai vs Juudara
Both Hinata and gai are more skilled In CQC than they are 
And both are lethal up close and deva and juudara simply can't win a straight up CQC battle 

Gai feat isn't any better because he is using gouken and Hinata jukken 

Also the gap between deva and Hinata is just as large as the one between juudara and Gai 

Gai feat is as situational as Hinata's was and he was handled the second juudara countered . No different from deva path counter 

Actually it is , juudara used a physical attack to counter and not ninjutsu 

Hinata even did better


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## Uzzui (Jul 21, 2015)

5 on 1 Gai gets bitchslapped neg diff


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## Sferr (Jul 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If Gai hasn't earned a reputation for his speed then he isn't faster than A. Its pretty simple.
> Eitherway, whether A knows about Gai or not, his speed is inferior, going by Kishimoto's statement.


Nice for you to ignore my argument. Just shows that you can't really counter it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, that is not why I claimed A would have more knowledge than Gaara in the first place.
> A is a 50 year old war veteran and a leader of a stronger village. He naturally has more knowledge and experience than Gaara.


Now show me why would A have more knowledge than Zetsu.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gaara being surprised by what he saw invalidates nothing. Speed is relative. From someone like Gaara's perspective, who is pretty weak physically compared to other people in his ballpark, Gai's movements may seem inhuman. Also he wasn't specifically referring to speed, but also his strength as well.


It invalidates your argument about common knowledge. Gaara being surprised means it was not common knowledge. And that was someone, who was _not _surprised by A's movements.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He wasn't wrong, because 8 Gated Gai wasn't introduced yet. Kishimoto assumes we have knowledge up to what we've seen up to that point.


What you have just said basically means that A is reading the manga together with us, readers. Unless he indeed does it, he does not know that Kishi has not yet shown 8 Gates.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Bold applies to every single statement made in this manga so far. Kishimoto can't assume we have knowledge on things he hasn't introduced yet, so when he says things like "I am the strongest" through his characters, he is only taking characters and powers he has shown into account within a certain context.
> 
> I'm not sure what is so hard to understand here...


I wonder if you agree than that tired Deva >>>>> Gai and SM Naruto >>>>> Gai? I wonder if you also agree that Jiraiya >>>> Itachi+Kisame?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 21, 2015)

Jad said:


> Deva backed up. Whether you think it didn't happen or not, it did. Hinata (on love crack future wife mode) was using Twin lion Gentle fist, meaning not backing up,  underestimating your opponent,  and taking a nip to the body would detrimentally cause internal damage. Understand the context of the situation not just Kakashi > Hinata, but Hinata made Deva backup, therefore feat us invalid. It happened, it's valid, especially when you understand how the different scenarios played out.
> 
> The difference between Gai and Juubidara was Gai was just using Taijutsu and managed to push back a guy who was infinitely stronger than anyone else. The level between Hinata and Deva is waaay closer thsn Juubidara and Gai. And given the difference in techniques between Gai and Hinata it's obvious.
> 
> ...



Yikes, the damage control, the excuses. This is what i hate about this place lol.

Both scenerios were the same. And be real, the gap between hinata and pain is pretty much the same as the gap between madara and gai. Hinata has zero chance against Pain, and gets fodderized. Same with madara against Gai, madara could have one shot him of he wanted. I like hpw people forget at kadara didnt use a single jutsu.

People be trying to make excuses and interpret hings however the hell they want. Its becoming bothersome. Literally two of the same feats, yet we are making excuses for the other in order to continue wanking gai,.. GTFO.

According to all what you guys have said, Hinata faster and stronger than the likes of Kakashi, base Naruto, heck evwn Tsuande. She managed to push Pain back did she not? So there we go, because thats the logic being used by absolute monkeys in this place.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 21, 2015)

DAMN SON, Look at Hinata go. She be pushin Deva Path Pain back. Her speed and taijutsu feats are incredible, she is Rinnegan user level! Being able to get da drop on Pain like that, its amazing.

Even Sage Naruto and Kakashi just got blown away from point blank. Kakashi is obviously slower than Hinata because she forced pain back and he didnt.


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## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

Lol wow rasen I agree but sounds 

Just saying 

Same thing with Hinata and Gai 

Hinata is shit level in CQC compared to Kakashi yet she engaged deva and he used ST to send her back 

He didn't give Her the Karin treatment


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## LostSelf (Jul 21, 2015)

There's a huge flaw with this comparison: Madara's visibly surprised face.

Seriously, if it was Minato or Itachi, that face expression would've been his biggest nightmares. But since it's Gai, it' just a "lol" facial one .

Deva was never, ever visibly bothered by Hinata. Madara was so clearly visibly surprised that you'd need to be a huge hater to assume that expression says another thing.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A's statement didn't involve Naruto. And even if he was, he didn't prove A wrong.


Ei said he was the fastest shinobi alive. That involves every Shinobi who is currently alive. Naruto did indeed immediately prove Ei wrong, by demonstrating that Ei was not the fastest shinobi alive, by out-speeding him. 



> Not that this has anything to do with Gai.


It has to do with Gai, because it shows Ei statement is not the author saying Ei is the fastest Shinobi, because Kishimoto knew Naruto was faster. It's Ei claiming such based on his knowledge, and therefore if you wish to use that statement to place Ei above 6th/7th Gate Gai, than the burden of proof is completely on you to show that Ei had knowledge of Gai's exact speed in those Gated Forms. Which quite frankly doesn't exist.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> DAMN SON, Look at Hinata go. She be pushin Deva Path Pain back. Her speed and taijutsu feats are incredible, she is Rinnegan user level! Being able to get da drop on Pain like that, its amazing.
> 
> Even Sage Naruto and Kakashi just got blown away from point blank. Kakashi is obviously slower than Hinata because she forced pain back and he didnt.


Dude come on, let's at least keep things honest here. Gai's was able to get right in Juubidara's face with his speed shocking the hell out of him and pushing him back, when just a few chapters ago we saw Juubidara casually shut down a SM-Minato that attempted the exact same thing with a point blank Hiraishin marker. This is greatly different than Hinata charging Deva Realm, Deva-Realm showing no alarm whatsoever, and than pasting her into the ground. And quite frankly the more comparable thing to that would be how Juubidara handled Minato.

I can't imagine someone who i've seen make intelligent posts in the past, does not see the difference.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Nice for you to ignore my argument. Just shows that you can't really counter it.


Which part of the argument I didn't counter ?

From a narrative standpoint, there are only 2 options. 
1 - Gai wasn't famous for his speed.
2- He was but still slower than A.

There is no 3rd option.
And regardless of which one it is, he is inferior to A in speed.



> Now show me why would A have more knowledge than Zetsu.


Zetsu didn't know how fast A was up until A broke his neck like a twig.
Conclusion = Zetsu doesn't know shit.
Lets move on.



> It invalidates your argument about common knowledge. Gaara being surprised means it was not common knowledge. And that was someone, who was _not _surprised by A's movements.


Read above. A being fast should have been common knowledge considering he and Minato had a thing going on. Even Tsunade knew about this given she expressed her surprise that Naruto was keeping up with A's raiton cloak. That means A is known to be a fast shinobi.

And Zetsu was surprised by a cloakless A's speed in the summit.

Having knowledge on something doesn't mean you can't be impressed by it. That is fallacious logic.

Gai's physical capability is impressive, no one said otherwise. But that is all you can say, going by Gaara's reaction.



> What you have just said basically means that A is reading the manga together with us, readers. Unless he indeed does it, he does not know that Kishi has not yet shown 8 Gates.


You are trying to overcomplicate it to dodge the point, I get it, you can't adress it.
But the thing is, thats how Kishimoto conveys information.He assumes that you are up to date with the manga and when he makes a general statement, he is taking every character and power he has introduced into account.
If X is stated to be the strongest physically, then you are to assume that he is stronger than every character(alive and relevant) you've seen so far.
If there is an exception to that rule, the author will notify you about it.
If he doesn't... Then you are shit out of luck. 



> I wonder if you agree than that tired Deva >>>>> Gai and SM Naruto >>>>> Gai? I wonder if you also agree that Jiraiya >>>> Itachi+Kisame?


Contextually irrelevant.



Turrin said:


> Ei said he was the fastest shinobi alive. That involves every Shinobi who is currently alive. Naruto did indeed immediately prove Ei wrong, by demonstrating that Ei was not the fastest shinobi alive, by out-speeding him.


A's remark didn't involve Naruto. Because, the whole point of the encounter is to show by the end that Naruto is on par/faster. 



> It has to do with Gai, because it shows Ei statement is not the author saying Ei is the fastest Shinobi, because Kishimoto knew Naruto was faster. It's Ei claiming such based on his knowledge, and therefore if you wish to use that statement to place Ei above 6th/7th Gate Gai, than the burden of proof is completely on you to show that Ei had knowledge of Gai's exact speed in those Gated Forms. Which quite frankly doesn't exist.



If you think Kishimoto's statement is wrong, then the burden of proof is on you.
You can try to make an argument that A didn't know about Gai's speed or something along those lines like some other are trying to.. but I'd advise against it, because they are losing that argument.


----------



## Uzzui (Jul 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol wow rasen I agree but sounds
> 
> Just saying
> 
> ...



Pretty sure that was filler


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A's remark didn't involve Naruto. Because contextually,


Ei claimed he was the fastest person alive, Naruto is alive, therefore it contextually involves Naruto.



> If you think Kishimoto's statement is wrong, then the burden of proof is on you.


Ei ≠ Kishimoto.



> You can try to make an argument that A didn't know about Gai's speed or something along those lines like some other are trying to.. but I'd advise against it, because they are losing that argument.


Kisame didn't know about Gai's 6th or 7th Gate, until Gai actually used them against Kisame.

Nether Minato nor Gaara knew about Gai could use Gates to that extent.

In-fact outside of Leaf Shinobi I don't believe we've seen anyone aware of Gai's 6th/7th Gate. 

It's quite plausible that Ei lacked knowledge of Gai's speed in 6th and/or 7th Gate. 

Now if you want me to believe otherwise and ignore Gai's vastly superior feats, you need to prove Ei has knowledge of 6th/7th Gate.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...aren't the Gates PART of taijutsu?



Forbidden techniques do not apply


----------



## Sferr (Jul 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which part of the argument I didn't counter ?


This argument:


Sferr said:


> Gai has not earned any reputation whatsoever. Outside Konoha he has a reputation of a random fodder. Which does not change the fact that he oneshotted an Akatsuki member and is stronger than even kages. The logic that he would have been known for his speed if he was faster than A does not work with Gai.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Zetsu didn't know how fast A was up until A broke his neck like a twig.
> Conclusion = Zetsu doesn't know shit.
> Lets move on.
> 
> ...


Zetsu was surprised _how_ fast A was, not_ that _he was fast. And that was White Zetsu alone. Gai was not recognized by Black Zetsu who actually knows his shit.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Having knowledge on something doesn't mean you can't be impressed by it. That is fallacious logic.


That's exactly what happened with White Zetsu and A.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gai's physical capability is impressive, no one said otherwise. But that is all you can say, going by Gaara's reaction.


Also we can conclude that A's physical capability was not impressive, I guess as Gaara did not have a similar reaction when he saw him.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are trying to overcomplicate it to dodge the point, I get it, you can't adress it.


Seriously? You just basically ignored my argument again by saying that I dodged something...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But the thing is, thats how Kishimoto conveys information.He assumes that you are up to date with the manga and when he makes a general statement, he is taking every character and power he has introduced into account.
> If X is stated to be the strongest physically, then you are to assume that he is stronger than every character(alive and relevant) you've seen so far.
> If there is an exception to that rule, the author will notify you about it.
> If he doesn't... Then you are shit out of luck.


Which means absolutely nothing for 7th Gate speed because he had not yet introduced it at that point when A made his statement.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Contextually irrelevant.


This is such a hilarious double standard that it's really strange that you don't see it.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> There's a huge flaw with this comparison: Madara's visibly surprised face.
> 
> Seriously, if it was Minato or Itachi, that face expression would've been his biggest nightmares. But since it's Gai, it' just a "lol" facial one .
> 
> Deva was never, ever visibly bothered by Hinata. Madara was so clearly visibly surprised that you'd need to be a huge hater to assume that expression says another thing.



and kakashi was surprised by genin sasuke

so i dont really see why juudara being surprised is so praise worthy


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 21, 2015)

Yes, Kakashi was surprised, and it was legit. Sasuke almost took the bell off from him.

Just like Gai's speed exceeded Juudara's expectations and he jumped back. This is not being too fast for Juudara to counter. This is being fast enough to surprise Juudara and make him jump back because that surprise put Gai fast enough in a favorable condition to strike,. Just like Sasuke surprised Kakashi and almost took the bell off him.

Is praise worthy because SM Minato fell short. So Gai shoudl've been faster. And Ei too fell short doing this (remotely surprising Juudara or his companions on how fast Ei is).

Actually, your example helps Gai here, considering that saying Sasuke almost grabs the bell off Kakashi is like saying Gai almost hit Juudara, since you're comparing .


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2015)

Sferr said:


> This argument:


Nothing to adress, as it is pure conjecture. 



> Zetsu was surprised _how_ fast A was, not_ that _he was fast. And that was White Zetsu alone. Gai was not recognized by Black Zetsu who actually knows his shit.





> That's exactly what happened with White Zetsu and A.


My point is, just because you know how a sunset looks like doesn't mean you can't appreciate it when you see one.
And the reason why Gai's movements are inhuman isn't speed alone, a point you have been deliberately ignoring. It is also power, as you can see, he was destroying the landscape with every move he made.



> Also we can conclude that A's physical capability was not impressive, I guess as Gaara did not have a similar reaction when he saw him.


Gaara never said anything about Minato either, I guess Gai is faster than Hirashin as well.

The thing is, by the time A made it to the battlefield, his speed was already established as top tier. The guy stated that he was the fastest, period. Gaara saying "omg that dude is fast" would have been utterly redundant.
"Gaara hyped Gai but not A" is also fallacious logic.
You can find countless examples like that if you are out for cherry picking.



> Which means absolutely nothing for 7th Gate speed because he had not yet introduced it at that point when A made his statement.


Really ? This page



> This is such a hilarious double standard that it's really strange that you don't see it.



You have no reason to question the integrity of A's statement. 
Your argument is basically "When A said he was the fastest, he left Gai out."
My argument : "why do you think he specifically left Gai out ? Why is Gai special?"
Your argument : "because.. um A probably didn't know about Gai. Yes yes, A didn't know Gai existed."

Sorry, unless you show me proof that Gai was left out for a reason, I can't take that argument seriously because it is nothing but fan favorism at this point.



Turrin said:


> Ei claimed he was the fastest person alive, Naruto is alive, therefore it contextually involves Naruto.


I already explained it to you.
A didn't know about KCM, no one did.
A's remark is based on existing Data. There was no existing data on Naruto's KCM.



> Ei ≠ Kishimoto.


He actually is, because Kishimoto can only convey information through his characters.
And the whole point of the encounter was to establish Naruto's speed, that is why he made A state that he was the fastest, so that when Naruto had shown that he can dodge his fastest punch, that'd establish Naruto as the fastest.



> Kisame didn't know about Gai's 6th or 7th Gate, until Gai actually used them against Kisame.
> 
> Nether Minato nor Gaara knew about Gai could use Gates to that extent.
> 
> ...


So it is quite possible that he didn't lack the knowledge. That is the thing. If he left Gai out, then it would be pointed out. 

What do you think the authors intention is ? 
Does he want you to think that Minato was the fastest and A was the 2nd closest ? or 
Does he want you to question the integrity of that statement ? Maybe Minato wasn't the fastest, maybe A was purposefully or unintentionally leaving out people much faster than himself or Minato of the equation ? 

We both know it is the former. 
These are pretty basic stuff. You are trying to overcomplicate it for no reason.



> Now if you want me to believe otherwise and ignore Gai's vastly superior feats, you need to prove Ei has knowledge of 6th/7th Gate.



He doesn't have vastly superior feats regarding speed, thats just your opinion.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I already explained it to you.
> A didn't know about KCM, no one did.
> A's remark is based on existing Data. There was no existing data on Naruto's KCM.


Cool, so now your going to prove Ei had intel on Gai's speed in 6th/7th Gate, right?



> He actually is, because Kishimoto can only convey information through his characters.
> And the whole point of the encounter was to establish Naruto's speed, that is why he made A state that he was the fastest, so that when Naruto had shown that he can dodge his fastest punch, that'd establish Naruto as the fastest.


Good to know so Jiraiya >= Itachi, because Kishimoto was conveying that information through his character, right?



> So it is quite possible that he didn't lack the knowledge. That is the thing. If he left Gai out, then it would be pointed out.


So why didn't anyone point out Naruto was faster?



> What do you think the authors intention is ?


To show Ei being wrong for like the fifth time in that discussion.



> Does he want you to think that Minato was the fastest and A was the 2nd closest ? or
> Does he want you to question the integrity of that statement ? Maybe Minato wasn't the fastest, maybe A was purposefully or unintentionally leaving out people much faster than himself or Minato out of the equation ?


Honestly I think him and Minato were thee fastest back in the day, but than Gai learned 7th-Gate and surpassed them, but since it's a Kinjutsu that fucks Gai's body up he doesn't use it frequently enough for Ei to have herd about 7th-Gate's speed. Just like this was the case with Naruto and his KCM.

And that when Kishi had Ei say that he was more highlighting how Ei and Minato were the fastest back in their day. 



> We both know it is the former.
> These are pretty basic stuff. You are trying to overcomplicate it for no reason.


Ei was wrong about being the faster than Naruto due to incomplete intel.
Ei could therefore be wrong about being faster than another person due to incomplete intel

Seem pretty dam simple to me.



> He doesn't have vastly superior feats regarding speed, thats just your opinion.


Let's say it's my opinion. Your asking me to ignore what I very plainly see as a vastly superior feat, because Ei couldn't possible be wrong, even though he was already proven wrong 5 seconds after making that statement.

Perhaps you can see why I don't find your premise very persuasive.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Dude come on, let's at least keep things honest here. Gai's was able to get right in Juubidara's face with his speed shocking the hell out of him and pushing him back, when just a few chapters ago we saw Juubidara casually shut down a SM-Minato that attempted the exact same thing with a point blank Hiraishin marker. This is greatly different than Hinata charging Deva Realm, Deva-Realm showing no alarm whatsoever, and than pasting her into the ground. And quite frankly the more comparable thing to that would be how Juubidara handled Minato.
> 
> I can't imagine someone who i've seen make intelligent posts in the past, does not see the difference.



You come on. All im doing is using the same exact scenarios that you are trying to overcomplicate. 

Hinata also got right in Pains face. He didnt even detect/notice her until she got right up to him:
This page

Then look at the next page in the first panel. Instead of Pain pushing her away or countering her right on the spot, he jumps back. See, hinata got the jump on him and caused him to retreat backwards:
This page

Then Hinata engages him again and forces him to back hop just like gai did to madara:


Yet Kakashi surprises him from underground, point blank:
This page
But pain is able to react no problem, and pushes kakashi away:
This page

So obviusoly sonce Hinata was able to put Pain under pressure and force him backwards, logically she is faster and better than Kaakshi. 

Thats the logic we are using so lets go with it. Since some of you fail to look at the curcumstances that affect each situation differently, you just straight up ignore them and go with your own made up beleifs. But hey, im talking to a guy who is trying to tell others that kishi is wrong while you are right. Kishi can only state thigs through characters, yet you want to call false on such things, so i will stoop to your oevel and use the same level of logic as yourself.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 21, 2015)

...
I blame the anime for the amount of Gai wank.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

I haven't watched an anime episode since Naruto saved Gaara


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Cool, so now your going to prove Ei had intel on Gai's speed in 6th/7th Gate, right?
> 
> 
> Good to know so Jiraiya >= Itachi, because Kishimoto was conveying that information through his character, right?
> ...



Like I said, I don't need to prove that A had knowledge on Gai. He didn't specify any names when he mentioned being the fastest. He made a general statement : "I am the fastest." Which means I am faster than everyone else. Everyone else = not a specific person, it is everyone A encountered, and everyone who are known for being fast. Global reputation and personal data.

So _you_ have to prove that Gai was left it out specifically. Like, why Gai isn't a part of "everyone" ? Thats what you need to prove.

Also regarding the Jiraiya > Itachi bit... It is irrelevant but I'll entertain the thought...

If I said "no", would you disregard that statement ? Of course not. 

The reason why the integrity of that statement is questioned is for different reasons(and many at that). They aren't even similar as Kishimoto named 2 shinobi and compared them to each other, it was a very specific scenario.

You can liken it to A's comparison of Minato and himself. A saying that he is the fastest is something else entirely.


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## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

Yes fair enough @lostself Gai almost hit juudara 
but juudara was never in danger 
Minato also almost hit juudara he simply isn't skilled in CQC like Gai is


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## RBL (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I haven't watched an anime episode since Naruto saved Gaara



i remember i quit it more or less when than happened or a guy named 'sora' appeared.

i just watch it when team gai appears on it.


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## LostSelf (Jul 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Yes fair enough @lostself Gai almost hit juudara
> but juudara was never in danger
> Minato also almost hit juudara he simply isn't skilled in CQC like Gai is



Imagine you're walking with a coup of glass. The glass falls off your hand, but you manage to grab it keeping your cool. That's how Juudara handled Minato.

Now imagine the same thing, but when you go to grab the coup, keeping your cool, you fail, your finger barely grasps the coup and it keeps falling, there you have to try harder because grabbing that coup of glass, suddenly, went out of your control. You manage to grab it, but with the surprise that it went out of your control some X amount of time.

That's how Juudara handled Gai.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, I don't need to prove that A had knowledge on Gai. He didn't specify any names when he mentioned being the fastest. He made a general statement : "I am the fastest." Which means I am faster than everyone else. Everyone else = not a specific person, it is everyone A encountered, and everyone who are known for being fast. Global reputation and personal data.
> 
> So you have to prove that Gai was left it out specifically. Like, why Gai isn't a part of "everyone" ? Thats what you need to prove.
> .


My argument only necessitates that I prove Ei may be mistaken again. And i've done that:

_Ei being proven wrong by Naruto, shows his statement is based on his personal intel. The fact that few have shown knowledge of Gai's 7th-Gate, is enough evidence to make it plausible that Ei may not have intel on 7th-Gated Gai's speed._

As long as the possibility that Ei is mistaken again exists, than i'm free to look at other evidence for why 7th-Gated Gai may be faster than Ei, such as his feat against Juubidara, in-order to formulate my opinion on whose faster.

You on the other hand wish to tell me i'm not free to do such because Ei's statement decides the argument. In which case your the one who needs to prove that the sole mistake Ei made was Naruto.



> Also regarding the Jiraiya > Itachi bit... It is irrelevant but I'll entertain the thought...
> 
> If I said "no", would you disregard that statement ? Of course not.
> 
> The reason why the integrity of that statement is questioned is for different reasons(and many at that). They aren't even similar as Kishimoto named 2 shinobi and compared them to each other, it was a very specific scenario.


The reasons for why one would question that statement is different, no doubt. But the reason why that statement can be questioned in the first place is not. That statement can be questioned because we do not know if Kishimoto is the orator, speaking through, Itachi, to tell readers Itachi's standings in comparison to Jiraiya's, or if Itachi himself is the orator, and therefore his word are subject to the limitations and motivations of his character, rather than being the words of God. The same is true of Ei's statement, and any less would be a blatant double standard.

Now you and I can form opinions as to the author's intent, but you can't flaunt your opinion as to whose speaking Ei or Kishimoto as proof of anything.


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## Sferr (Jul 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nothing to adress, as it is pure conjecture.


It's not a conjecture. Nobody in Akatsuki apart from Itachi knew of Gai's existance. Black Zetsu, who had intel on almost everyone had no idea who he was. You can try to disprove me, though. Show me that anybody not from Konoha knew of Gai's existence. The same way how everyone and their mother knows who Kakashi is.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> My point is, just because you know how a sunset looks like doesn't mean you can't appreciate it when you see one.
> And the reason why Gai's movements are inhuman *isn't speed alone*, a point you have been deliberately ignoring. It is also power, as you can see, he was destroying the landscape with every move he made.


I am not deliberately ignoring it. I am not mentioning it because it is irrelevant to discussion. You said yourself that speed is included in Gaara's statement and that's what I'm talking about.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gaara never said anything about Minato either, I guess Gai is faster than Hirashin as well.


Because when Minato uses Hiraishin, he does not do _inhuman movements_. In fact, he does not move at all, he teleports. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, by the time A made it to the battlefield, his speed was already established as top tier. The guy stated that he was the fastest, period. Gaara saying "omg that dude is fast" would have been utterly redundant.
> "Gaara hyped Gai but not A" is also fallacious logic.
> You can find countless examples like that if you are out for cherry picking.


The point is, Gaara didn't just say that Gai was 'omg, so fast'. He claimed that Gai moved not like a human. He did not know that a human could move like that. And he already had seen A going top speed. If A was faster than Gai then there was no reason for Gaara to claim that Gai's movements were inhuman as he would have been aware that a human could move like that and even faster.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Really ? This page


Come on. You are perfectly aware what I am saying so don't make a useless argument. Gai is not moving in 7th Gate in your link, he is floating in a single point. His speed in 7th Gate was not shown until he fought Juubidara.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> You have no reason to question the integrity of A's statement.


I have a perfectly valid reason to question A's statement - Gai actually moved faster than A. Kishi draw a feat from Gai that completely dwarfs anything that A has shown. If that is not a valid reason, then what else is?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your argument is basically "When A said he was the fastest, he left Gai out."
> My argument : "why do you think he specifically left Gai out ? Why is Gai special?"
> Your argument : "because.. um A probably didn't know about Gai. Yes yes, A didn't know Gai existed."


And? You try to make it sound implausible but you really fail in doing it. You can say exactly the same thing regarding the slug's statement about Gai not being able to help Naruto against Deva and Itachi's statement regarding being weaker than Jiraiya.


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## SenjuDNA (Jul 21, 2015)

So Kishi goes out of his way to explain that only with the 8th gate can you attain power > than the Gokage, but yet he's greater than them with the 7th gate...so Kishi doesn't know what he's talking about?

So Gai, with the 7th, can solo the Gokage who forced Madara to use his ultimate jutsu against him, while that same Madara who bested both him and Bee with less.

Lol no. Even individually is laughable since the 5 of them were practically stalemating 25 Edo Mads + Susanno and Gai could barely take out Kisame with the 7th gate.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Imagine you're walking with a coup of glass. The glass falls off your hand, but you manage to grab it keeping your cool. That's how Juudara handled Minato.
> 
> Now imagine the same thing, but when you go to grab the coup, keeping your cool, you fail, your finger barely grasps the coup and it keeps falling, there you have to try harder because grabbing that coup of glass, suddenly, went out of your control. You manage to grab it, but with the surprise that it went out of your control some X amount of time.
> 
> That's how Juudara handled Gai.



Madara did not attack Gai tho as he did to Minato, he just went backwords. And honestly it's obvious
that Kishi went that way because unlike the Edo Hokage, Gai (and the others for that matter) are living characters, so he wouldn't handle them as ET since he can simply make the ET regenerate. 

More like how he allowed Tobirama and Hiruzen regenerate, but not Minato.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Thats the logic we are using so lets go with it. Since some of you fail to look at the curcumstances that affect each situation differently, you just straight up ignore them and go with your own made up beleifs. But hey, im talking to a guy who is trying to tell others that kishi is wrong while you are right. Kishi can only state thigs through characters, yet you want to call false on such things, so i will stoop to your oevel and use the same level of logic as yourself.


Honestly dude, your failing to look at circumstances, I.E. the difference in how Juubidara and Deva reacted to their attacks. So to accuse others of that is . 

The rest of this is personal attacks because you lack a real argument.


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Madara did not attack Gai tho as he did to Minato, he just went backwords. And honestly it's obvious
> that Kishi went that way because unlike the Edo Hokage, Gai (and the others for that matter) are living characters, so he wouldn't handle them as ET since he can simply make the ET regenerate.
> 
> More like how he allowed Tobirama and Hiruzen regenerate, but not Minato.



Madara finished off Naruto and Sasuke, living characters. Kishi always could've made Madara bitchslap Gai out of the way without killing him, like the kick he did to Minato.

The example is not invalid .


----------



## Trojan (Jul 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Madara finished off Naruto and Sasuke, living characters. Kishi always could've made Madara bitchslap Gai out of the way without killing him, like the kick he did to Minato.
> 
> The example is not invalid .



- Yeah, but not to the point where he cut their limbs off, he only did that after the end of their battle, and the next chapter he gave Naruto another arm. Kishi does those things to the characters who do have means of getting those things back. For example, he made Madara cut Tsunade in half, but he never did that to the other Kages.

Just like he did that to Deidara, Madara, Obito...etc because they made some stuff to them to get their limbs back. However, if he made Madara to attack Gai in that same way, then the whole thing about the 8th Gate will get ruined, no? 

- He did, by making Gai gets blown away with his attack explosion just to make Lee save him again. Kinda how people were bitching about why did not madara put the Black rods on Minato and take him out completely like he did to Tobirama and Hashirama. The reason obviously is because Minato sill had one more thing to do at the time, and then he made him go to sleep lol.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Gai could have done all the same shit he did if he lost an arm.


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2015)

I see him using both arms. 
This page

---------------
On a separate note: 
If we are going to take everything like the way it is with those whole massive Gai wank, we can also ends up with
the statement about the 8th gate being wrong by using some twisted means. For example, saying "well, A (3rd & 4th)
showed more durability than the Juubi's Jinchurrikis ever did! for instance, SM Naruto's Rassengan opened a hole in JJ Obito's back
while KCM Naruto's FRS did not do a thing to the 3rd Raikage. And while Madara was cut in half by Sasuke's chidori sphere, a stronger
variety of it barely did a wound to A's chest. In addition, Sasuke's sword cut right through madara, but it couldn't scratch A's neck ,,etc

Therefore, since the Raikage's showed more durability than Madara ever did, and madara tanked all of Gai's attacks, then the Raikages will do
even better. Thus, the 8th Gat does not make you stronger than the Raikage, and therefore the hype is wrong " 

or other twisted means when it's obvious that it's not what Kishi is going for.

--------

When everyone wants to take statements as they pleased and try to link unrelated events or characters that were not put in the same situation
like each others, the debate will just go in circles. This topic is an example, same with itachi and Jiraiya, Minato and Tobirama, Sasori and Deidara
and some other shits...


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I see him using both arms.
> This page
> .


Did he have to though?


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2015)

Gai gets raped. 

I would favor him against either Tsunade or Ei individually but between them there is too much durability, combined with the fact that he'd also be dealing with three other Kages at the same time. It's that simple.

While in the 7th-Gate he's defo faster than Ei at his top-speed though.


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## Jad (Jul 22, 2015)

For people who believe Tsunade and A can't survive one Hirudora (unprepped), how does Gai lose from a get-go Hirudora match start against the Gokage. They are all grouped up and none can know about the blast radius. I even doubt Tsunade's knows about it, yes we know Yamato knows about it, but his witnessed the move first hand before, based on reaction. Hell, Gai never uttered a word about Night Guy to Lee, his ultimate last move. So we know for fact he doesn't share everything about him, and not everything about him is known to all (even to his closest confidante).

Also if Gai's engagement with Juubidara wasn't impressive, than why Minato and especially Gaara's reactions... he DID push him back, look at Judara's body motion in that straight panel. What was the reason fir him to move backwards ? (Will debate more when  get off my phone, I have few major panels and points to make).


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2015)

Jad said:


> Also if Gai's engagement with Juubidara wasn't impressive, than why Minato and especially Gaara's reactions... he DID push him back, look at Judara's body motion in that straight panel. What was the reason fir him to move backwards ? (Will debate more when  get off my phone, I have few major panels and points to make).


Those who are saying Gai's feat against Juudara in the 7th-Gate wasn't impressive are just trying to down-play. 

Like earlier in this thread when someone compared Tedno dancing circles around Hinata with literally zero effort to Gai forcing Juudara to side-step him which is completely dishonest. And it was only when Gai stopped to form the seals for Hirudora that Juudara took a swipe at him.

In contrast Edo Madara--who is consdieraly slower than his Juubi Jin iteration--was able to become cognizant of and block a punch from Ei at the last second _*[1]*_. Juudara in that same position doesn't block but instead sends Ei flying backwards.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

Jad said:


> For people who believe Tsunade and A can't survive one Hirudora (unprepped), how does Gai lose from a get-go Hirudora match start against the Gokage. They are all grouped up and none can know about the blast radius. I even doubt Tsunade's knows about it, yes we know Yamato knows about it, but his witnessed the move first hand before, based on reaction. Hell, Gai never uttered a word about Night Guy to Lee, his ultimate last move. So we know for fact he doesn't share everything about him, and not everything about him is known to all (even to his closest confidante).
> 
> Also if Gai's engagement with Juubidara wasn't impressive, than why Minato and especially Gaara's reactions... he DID push him back, look at Judara's body motion in that straight panel. What was the reason fir him to move backwards ? (Will debate more when  get off my phone, I have few major panels and points to make).





StickaStick said:


> Those who are saying Gai's feat against Juudara in the 7th-Gate wasn't impressive are just trying to down-play.
> 
> Like earlier in this thread when someone compared Tedno dancing circles around Hinata with literally zero effort to Gai forcing Juudara to side-step him which is completely dishonest. And it was only when Gai stopped to form the seals for Hirudora that Juudara took a swipe at him.
> 
> In contrast Edo Madara--who is consdieraly slower than his Juubi Jin iteration--was able to become cognizant of and block a punch from Ei at the last second _*[1]*_. Juudara in that same position doesn't block but instead sends Ei flying backwards.


What Guy did against Juubi Madara wasn't impressive for the simple fact his assault did absolutely nothing. He didn't land a single blow. His fastest punch was countered. He ended up lying in a heap needing to be rescued. Minato was impressed since he didn't know Guy could get to the Seventh Gate, and Gaara was impressed since he didn't see anything higher than the Fifth Gate in person. To them it was brand new.

If Guy actually _did something_ against Juubi Madara, like landed a solid blow, THAT would have been impressive. Hell even causing a flesh wound would have been impressive for him to do in the Seventh Gate since at least he could hurt a god tier character with a lower gate. Instead, Juubi Madara avoided every hit and blocked his fastest punch, jumping back on his own accord to launch a Gudodama.


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2015)

No, forcing a Juubi Jinchuuriki to side-step you is impressive in the sense that we're talking about speed, which is the main point of discussion as it pertains to.

And he didn't counter Gai's fastest punch--he pre-empted him from using it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> No, forcing a Juubi Jinchuuriki to side-step you is impressive in the sense that we're talking about speed, which is the main point of discussion as it pertains to.
> 
> And he didn't counter Gai's fastest punch--he pre-empted him from using it.


1. Not really. Juubi Madara was literally sidstepping and avoiding every blow without expending any effort. Guy didn't land one punch while Madara was practically dancing. It showed Seventh Gated Guy doing nothing, landing nothing, and Madara still not taking him seriously.

2. No, he did handily counter it. Put his Gudodama Shakujo right in the path without any effort and deflected it.

Seriously, this feat is wanked so much when it wasn't anything impressive.


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## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Jul 22, 2015)

multiple hirudoras can easily take out the 5 kage. it's been shown in the manga more than once that hirudora doesn't exhaust a 7th gated gai. i even made a thread about this


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

RickMartin Ben Janardhan said:


> multiple hirudoras can easily take out the 5 kage. it's been shown in the manga more than once that hirudora doesn't exhaust a 7th gated gai. i even made a thread about this


Guy can only do one Hirudora at a time. And yes, it does exhaust Seventh Gated Guy, what do you think happened here, when Guy was ready to pass out after using both?


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## StarWanderer (Jul 22, 2015)

7 Gate Gai cant beat all of them at once.


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Not really. Juubi Madara was literally sidstepping and avoiding every blow without expending any effort. Guy didn't land one punch while Madara was practically dancing. It showed Seventh Gated Guy doing nothing, landing nothing, and Madara still not taking him seriously.
> 
> 2. No, he did handily counter it. Put his Gudodama Shakujo right in the path without any effort and deflected it.


Yeah, I know, this is some kind of ridiculous interpretation you keeping purporting and it doesn't make it any less wrong. 

The idea that Juudara has to be in some kind of real danger to show that he was expending effort is a flawed way of viewing it. 


Gai attacked Juudara and _forced him_ to evade his hits. Juudara's body positioning in the above image clearly depicts this. 



> Seriously, this feat is wanked so much when it wasn't anything impressive.


Honestly, in some ways I find it more impressive than what he did while in the 8th-Gate, which is the feat of his that actually is wanked beyond what it was actually worth. So I'm not interested in making Gai to look better than he was portrayed to be, but simply calling it as it's laid out in front of us all.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Yeah, I know, this is some kind of ridiculous interpretation you keeping purporting and it doesn't make it any less wrong.
> 
> The idea that Juudara has to be in some kind of real danger to show that he was expending effort is a flawed way of viewing it.
> 
> ...


Except what you're claiming is wrong. Know why people keep making the Hinata comparison? Since in many ways, its the exact same feat. Juubi Madara was not threatened at all. He was humoring guy, just like how Deva Path humored Hinata.



> Honestly, in some ways I find it more impressive than what he did while in the 8th-Gate, which is the feat of his that actually is wanked beyond what it was actually worth. So I'm not interested in making Gai to look better than he was portrayed to be, but simply calling it as it's laid out in front of us all.


Eight Gated Guy physically overpowered Juubi Madara, blitzed Juubi Madara, and nearly killed Juubi Madara. How is Juubi Madara's dancing around the Seventh Gate more impressive? 

And seriously, what sense does it make for Juubi Madara to think Guy is a threat in the Seventh Gate when Guy was turned into a ragdoll when Madara was much weaker?


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except what you're claiming is wrong. Know why people keep making the Hinata comparison? Since in many ways, its the exact same feat. Juubi Madara was not threatened at all. He was humoring guy, just like how Deva Path humored Hinata.


Yeah, again I know this is your position so there's no point arguing about it since obviously we see it in very different ways.



> Eight Gated Guy physically overpowered Juubi Madara, blitzed Juubi Madara, and nearly killed Juubi Madara. How is Juubi Madara's dancing around the Seventh Gate more impressive?



More impressive in the sense that at sub full-power (i.e., sub 8th-Gate) he was able to apply pressure to someone with a reaction speed at eclipses even SM Minato's and pretty much anyone elses at that point sans the 7/8th-Gate.

Gai's 8th-Gate feet is overrated because he literally wailed on Juudara for some time with assistance in-between from multiple individuals and still lost via attrition.  



> And seriously, what sense does it make for Juubi Madara to think Guy is a threat in the Seventh Gate when Guy was turned into a ragdoll when Madara was much weaker?


If Juudara didn't think Gai's was even an once of a threat then instead of bothering to dodge his attacks he would have sent him flying back like he did Minato instead of waiting for him to form signs for Hirudora before deciding to attack him.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Yeah, again I know this is your position so there's no point arguing about it since obviously we see it in very different ways.


What makes the situations ANY fricking different, StickaStick? 




> More impressive in the sense that at sub full-power (i.e., sub 8th-Gate) he was able to apply pressure to someone with a reaction speed at eclipses even SM Minato's and pretty much anyone elses at that point sans the 7/8th-Gate.


Except he never pressured Juubi Madara. He couldn't even pressure Edo Madara with backup. Do you see how nonsensical that is?


> Gai's 8th-Gate feet is overrated because he literally wailed on Juudara for some time with assistance in-between from multiple individuals and still lost via attrition.


He legitimately blitzed Juubi Madara. He legitimately landed blows and caused great damage. Far more than what he did in the Seventh Gate.



> If Juudara didn't think Gai's was even an once of a threat then instead of bothering to dodge his attacks he would have sent him flying back like he did Minato instead of waiting for him to form signs for Hirudora before deciding to attack him.


Since Guy wasn't? How about this for a comparison: Vegeta vs Freeza's fourth form. Vegeta was seemingly pushing Freeza back despite Freeza just toying with him, and in the end, Vegeta failed to land a single blow. Its the same exact thing with Guy here.


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What makes the situations ANY fricking different, StickaStick?


Hinata attacked Tendo and was quickly fodderized; Gai attacked Juudara and was able to force him to side-step him repeatedly. He eventually as well was put on his behind but through his speed was able to hang with him momentarily as opposed to Hinata where she rushed at Tendo and was immediately put on her behind with no difficulty whatsoever. You're failure to recognize this distinct difference tells me you're not even trying to be objective.



> Except he never pressured Juubi Madara. He couldn't even pressure Edo Madara with backup. Do you see how nonsensical that is?


7th-Gate Gai never engaged Edo Mads in the same fashion as his did Juudara, so you don't have a point here. And if he had Edo Mads would have been overwhelmed and forced to enact Susano'O or clear space.



> He legitimately blitzed Juubi Madara. He legitimately landed blows and caused great damage. Far more than what he did in the Seventh Gate.


That's great but I never said he did more to Juudara in the 7th-Gate, only that it was more impressive in certain respects.



> Since Guy wasn't? How about this for a comparison: Vegeta vs Freeza's fourth form. Vegeta was seemingly pushing Freeza back despite Freeza just toying with him, and in the end, Vegeta failed to land a single blow. Its the same exact thing with Guy here.


I haven't watched that fight since over a decade ago back when they aired it with the original Faulconer themes and I don't plan of re-watching just for this discussion.

Regardless I don't need to re-watch some scene from a different manga to interpret what's clearly presented here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Hinata attacked Tendo and was quickly fodderized; Gai attacked Juudara and was able to force him to side-step him repeatedly. He eventually as well was put on his behind but through his speed was able to hang with him momentarily as opposed to Hinata where she rushed at Tendo and was immediately put on her behind with no difficulty whatsoever. You're failure to recognize this distinct difference tells me you're not even trying to be objective.


 Hinata pushed Deva Path back three times and loaded her attack and got a Shinra Tensei in her face. Guy attacked Juubi Madara the same exact way, and got fodderized. Seriously, its the exact same situation and you don't want to admit it since you thought Guy was cooler there. 



> 7th-Gate Gai never engaged Edo Mads in the same fashion as his did Juudara, so you don't have a point here. And if he had Edo Mads would have been overwhelmed and forced to enact Susano'O or clear space.


...what? Seventh Gated Guy would have engaged Edo Madara alongside fully transformed Killer B and got fodderized. Look at the state Guy was in, he was bleeding, barely conscious, and passed out after using Hirudora.



> That's great but I never said he did more to Juudara in the 7th-Gate, only that it was more impressive in certain respects.


Except its not impressive at all. He didn't do anything to Juubi Madara. He didn't land a hit. He got fodderized and ended up in a heap.



> I haven't watched that fight since over a decade ago back when they aired it with the original Faulconer themes and I don't plan of re-watching just for this discussion.
> 
> Regardless I don't need to re-watch some scene from a different manga to interpret what's clearly presented here.


You do since like the Hinata example, its the exact same situation. Looked impressive, but the character doing the action was immediately fodderized. Its practically a staple in fiction...hell it even has a name: the Worf Barrage.


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hinata pushed Deva Path back three times and loaded her attack and got a Shinra Tensei in her face. Guy attacked Juubi Madara the same exact way, and got fodderized. Seriously, its the exact same situation and you don't want to admit it since you thought Guy was cooler there.


Tendo skipped back and then wasted her. 

Juudara's effort was noticeably different as he didn't merely skip back but had to side-step and waited until Gai started to form signs to attack him. It's also worth mentioning that Tendo could have forced Hinato back without having to move at all while if Juudara could have counter-attacked Gai and sent him back he would have like he did against Minato. 

The thought that Juudara would allow Gai to force him to evade his attacks when he clearly saw Gai's non-use of the 8th-Gate as disrespect and could have counter-attacked if he wanted but chose not until Gai stated to use Hirudora to is pretty silly.

And no I really didn't see it as all that cool so again I don't really care either way.



> ...what? Seventh Gated Guy would have engaged Edo Madara alongside fully transformed Killer B and got fodderized. Look at the state Guy was in, he was bleeding, barely conscious, and passed out after using Hirudora.


Again, Gai while in the 7th-Gate never engaged Edo Mads in the same fashion as he did Juudara. They fought outside of pure Taijutsu so you have zero point here.



> You do since like the Hinata example, its the exact same situation. Looked impressive, but the character doing the action was immediately fodderized. Its practically a staple in fiction...hell it even has a name: the Worf Barrage.


Except it's not.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Tendo skipped back and then wasted her.
> 
> Juudara's effort was noticeably different as he didn't merely skip back but had to side-step and waited until Gai started to form signs to attack him. It's also worth mentioning that Tendo could have forced Hinato back without having to move at all while if Juudara could have counter-attacked Gai and sent him back he would have like he did against Minato.
> 
> ...


Juubi Madara could react to faster fighters than Seventh Gated Guy. He simply chose not to counter attack, that's it. Guy attacked with everything he had and it did nothing. Madara clearly played with him since Guy didn't use the Eighth Gate against him at that time.




> Again, Gai while in the 7th-Gate never engaged Edo Mads in the same fashion as he did Juudara. They fought outside of pure Taijutsu so you have zero point here.


No, its a pretty big point.



> Except it's not.


Guy unleashes his thus then best technique and does nothing, lands zero blows and needs rescuing at the end. Yeah, its a textbook Worf Barrage.


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## Louis-954 (Jul 22, 2015)

I cannot believe that this thread has spanned 12 pages...

Even if we give Guy the benefit of the doubt that he could manage to take out Gaara, Ohnoki and Mei-- he's gonna have a difficult time tagging A and even if he does manage to land a fatal blow on Tsunade her Byakugo no Jutsu should mitigate the damage. This would be a battle of attrition where the clock is working against the very one-dimensional Guy.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 22, 2015)

Sferr said:


> It's not a conjecture. Nobody in Akatsuki apart from Itachi knew of Gai's existance. Black Zetsu, who had intel on almost everyone had no idea who he was. You can try to disprove me, though. Show me that anybody not from Konoha knew of Gai's existence. The same way how everyone and their mother knows who Kakashi is.


Akatsuki = / = ninja world. Just because a couple of guys didn't know about Gai doesn't mean no one else did. 



> I am not deliberately ignoring it. I am not mentioning it because it is irrelevant to discussion. You said yourself that speed is included in Gaara's statement and that's what I'm talking about.


How is that irrelevant when Gaara never pointed out speed ? 



> Because when Minato uses Hiraishin, he does not do _inhuman movements_. In fact, he does not move at all, he teleports.


Yet he is still called "fast" because of hirashin.
Technically, Hirashin's "speed" is more impressive than Gai's.
But it didn't get a praise from Gaara. I guess everything we are told about Hirashin is wrong. Probably Gai is faster than teleportation.



> The point is, Gaara didn't just say that Gai was 'omg, so fast'. He claimed that Gai moved not like a human. He did not know that a human could move like that. And he already had seen A going top speed. If A was faster than Gai then there was no reason for Gaara to claim that Gai's movements were inhuman as he would have been aware that a human could move like that and even faster.


Because he was destroying his surroundings while he was moving. Like I said, Gai looked inhuman because of the power of his body, as well as speed.



> Come on. You are perfectly aware what I am saying so don't make a useless argument. Gai is not moving in 7th Gate in your link, he is floating in a single point. His speed in 7th Gate was not shown until he fought Juubidara.


Cherry picking.
Also Hirudora is his fastest and strongest attack in 7th Gate. So he can't go faster and stronger than that.



> I have a perfectly valid reason to question A's statement - Gai actually moved faster than A. Kishi draw a feat from Gai that completely dwarfs anything that A has shown. If that is not a valid reason, then what else is?


You are wrong though, Gai's feat doesn't dwarf A's because they are incomparable.
You just assume t hat "oh shit, Gai held his own against Juubidara for 1 second before he got one shot, so he must be faster than A."
Sorry, but thats not even an argument.



> And? You try to make it sound implausible but you really fail in doing it. You can say exactly the same thing regarding the slug's statement about Gai not being able to help Naruto against Deva and Itachi's statement regarding being weaker than Jiraiya.


Like I said, you are adding new information to the existing information we are given(Gai was specifically left out).
I'm just asking you proof for your addition. And so far, other than "MUH GAI" you haven't been able to provide any.



Turrin said:


> My argument only necessitates that I prove Ei may be mistaken again. And i've done that:


Your argument is false because it is based on the false premise that A was mistaken.
He wasn't.



> _Ei being proven wrong by Naruto, shows his statement is based on his personal intel. The fact that few have shown knowledge of Gai's 7th-Gate, is enough evidence to make it plausible that Ei may not have intel on 7th-Gated Gai's speed._


A wasn't proven wrong, as he didn't say anything related to Naruto.
Like I explained, "I'm the fastest" is based on existing Data. Naruto wasn't part of that.
Gai was, like every other existing data out there.



> As long as the possibility that Ei is mistaken again exists, than i'm free to look at other evidence for why 7th-Gated Gai may be faster than Ei, such as his feat against Juubidara, in-order to formulate my opinion on whose faster.


Read above.



> You on the other hand wish to tell me i'm not free to do such because Ei's statement decides the argument. In which case your the one who needs to prove that the sole mistake Ei made was Naruto.


Again, read above.



> The reasons for why one would question that statement is different, no doubt. But the reason why that statement can be questioned in the first place is not. That statement can be questioned because we do not know if Kishimoto is the orator, speaking through, Itachi, to tell readers Itachi's standings in comparison to Jiraiya's, or if Itachi himself is the orator, and therefore his word are subject to the limitations and motivations of his character, rather than being the words of God. The same is true of Ei's statement, and any less would be a blatant double standard.


Itachi's character is saying that Jiraiya and himself would end up killing each other. You can'T get more objective than that. 
Like I said, the reason why you question that statement is for other reasons. 
They are completely unrelated.



> Now you and I can form opinions as to the author's intent, but you can't flaunt your opinion as to whose speaking Ei or Kishimoto as proof of anything.


It is a very clear statement, it isn't open to interpretation.
If you think it is, better present proof or just admit that it is fan favorism.
In other words, you think Gai is faster because you want ot believe that.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your argument is false because it is based on the false premise that A was mistaken.
> He wasn't.


Prove it.



> A wasn't proven wrong, as he didn't say anything related to Naruto.
> Like I explained, "I'm the fastest" is based on existing Data. Naruto wasn't part of that.
> Gai was, like every other existing data out there


So again it comes back to intel. So prove Ei had intel on 7th-Gate Gai's Speed.



> Itachi's character is saying that Jiraiya and himself would end up killing each other. You can'T get more objective than that.
> Like I said, the reason why you question that statement is for other reasons.
> They are completely unrelated.


Copy- The reasons for why one would question that statement is different, no doubt. But the reason why that statement can be questioned in the first place is not. That statement can be questioned because we do not know if Kishimoto is the orator, speaking through, Itachi, to tell readers Itachi's standings in comparison to Jiraiya's, or if Itachi himself is the orator, and therefore his word are subject to the limitations and motivations of his character, rather than being the words of God. The same is true of Ei's statement, and any less would be a blatant double standard. - Paste



> t is a very clear statement, it isn't open to interpretation.
> If you think it is, better present proof or just admit that it is fan favorism.
> In other words, you think Gai is faster because you want ot believe that.


It is a very clear statement, but it was also very clear proven wrong moments after it was made.


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## LostSelf (Jul 22, 2015)

Some people are taking this thread wrong. (Because they come here without reading) and think that this 12 pages are being debated of Gai vs Gokage when it's clearly Gai vs Ei in speed and the general knowledge. (But that's mostly because the title is misleading).

People should think to themselves "If my favorite character were in Gai's shoes, what would be my answer on that panel?" And then i bet most would change their opinion or would be dishonest (Wich i feel it's being said, despite respecting all their respectable arguments).

It's like the example i made. People made all sort of counters to Sai's clear (to me, at least) blitz to Deidara and Sasori. But because it's Sai. Deidara should've been dicking around because there's no way a Jounin low level would accomplish such.

But, if we put Ei, Itachi, Minato or even slow Kages (in speed compared to speedesters) like Tsunade-Mei in Sai's shoes, then the feat wouldn't be debatable. Would be a clear speedblitz.

The same happens with Gai. Suddenly, Madara, of all the people he faced and bitchslapped without mercy since his return, decides to play around with Gai. Why? Because Gai cannot be faster than Ei, because Ei said so, or because Gai wouldn't accomplish such a thing.

However, if we put Itachi (not a jab to anybody, just using a popular character as example) there, then Juudara and Gaara's sole expression would be proof enough that Juudara was pressured. 

I mean, wasn't somebody saying Tsunade outpaced V2 lightened Ei (No, dear Flamie, not you, but some). Where did Ei's statement went that time? Weren't people saying that Itachi speedblitzed Killer Bee and appeared behind? Since when has Itachi been that fast?

Weren't some people saying that Minato's movement speed and striking speed was superior to MP's supersonic speed and using arguments of Minato clashing with Obito at the same time, as equalizing their speed?

It looks like, to me, that Gai's feat against Juudara is more unbelievable to the some because Gai's general level is not portrayed to be that high, for them.

And i reiterate, it's not attacking anybody, i respect each and everybody here.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Honestly dude, your failing to look at circumstances, I.E. the difference in how Juubidara and Deva reacted to their attacks. So to accuse others of that is .
> 
> The rest of this is personal attacks because you lack a real argument.


Theres no difference. Gai attacks when Madaras guard is down (while he's shielding his eyes).
Hinata attacks from Pains blind spot. Both madara and pain see the opponent at the last second. Madara jumps back, pain jumps back. Hinata then follows on with multiple attacks, same as Gai. Pain gets pushed back and is forced to avoid all her strikes. Madara avoids the exact way pain does. Pain then decides he's done playing and one shots her wih ST. Madara does the same and one shots gai with his staff.

The cirmcumstances arent different, you just cant accept the fact that you are wrong and continue to wank a feat that doesnt even show movement speed, it just taijutsu speed.

No you lack a counter, and are desperately trying to avoid the fact that Hinata and Pains situation is no different. Both occasions the enemy took it easy on the opponent before countering them, i like how you avoided to address the rest of my points because you cant. Why did pain react to kakashi and not hinata? Go on, tell me. Tell me, how is it that madara was pushed back by regular punches and kicks, yet Hirudora (the fastest attack in Gais arsenal) was then countered. Its faster than all his attacks before that, so the fact that madara countered that, means he could have done the same to any one of gais previous attacks. Like ive said a gajillion times, Madara had his eyes covered, his arms weren't even in a position to counter. So he jumps backs a bit, recomposes himself and then counters an even faster attack. 

If not for the debris and wind blowing toward madara and shielding his vision and causing him to cover his face, he would have seen gais attack clearly and countered it the moment gai appeared in his face. Madara was able to follow gais movement in 8 gates, so for him to be surprised by 7G is laughble. The first evening elephant strike that Gai used, when he blitzed his way straight into madaras face, Madara foresaw it and even blocked it. So are you telling me 7G is faster an 8G now? You dont even deserve a face palm, your logic is so bad, its pitiful. I can show multiple instances of juudara following Gais speed in the 8th gate and reacting to him. Yet you think an attack from 7g which is much slower, is e reason madara was pushed back? GTFO! You know what the difference was while gai was in the 8 gates? Madara being able to clearly see his opponent.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Prove it.


I don't need to prove anything because I'm not the one trying to contest a statement here.
You are, so I am pretty sure you have evidence to support your claim.



> So again it comes back to intel. So prove Ei had intel on 7th-Gate Gai's Speed.


Read above.


> Copy- The reasons for why one would question that statement is different, no doubt. But the reason why that statement can be questioned in the first place is not. That statement can be questioned because we do not know if Kishimoto is the orator, speaking through, Itachi, to tell readers Itachi's standings in comparison to Jiraiya's, or if Itachi himself is the orator, and therefore his word are subject to the limitations and motivations of his character, rather than being the words of God. The same is true of Ei's statement, and any less would be a blatant double standard. - Paste



I don't think two statements are related.

You can make a similar case for the latter part of A's statement though "now that 4th is dead." Implying 4th was faster than him.



> It is a very clear statement, but it was also very clear proven wrong moments after it was made.



Thats only if you ignore the context. A's statement didn't involve Naruto.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Theres no difference. Gai attacks when Madaras guard is down (while he's shielding his eyes).
> Hinata attacks from Pains blind spot. Both madara and pain see the opponent at the last second. Madara jumps back, pain jumps back. Hinata then follows on with multiple attacks, same as Gai. Pain gets pushed back and is forced to avoid all her strikes. Madara avoids the exact way pain does. Pain then decides he's done playing and one shots her wih ST. Madara does the same and one shots gai with his staff.
> 
> The cirmcumstances arent different, you just cant accept the fact that you are wrong and continue to wank a feat that doesnt even show movement speed, it just taijutsu speed.
> ...



the amount of win in this post is over 9000
I don't even think I can rep u again. sorry


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Theres no difference. Gai attacks when Madaras guard is down (while he's shielding his eyes).
> Hinata attacks from Pains blind spot. Both madara and pain see the opponent at the last second. Madara jumps back, pain jumps back. Hinata then follows on with multiple attacks, same as Gai. Pain gets pushed back and is forced to avoid all her strikes. Madara avoids the exact way pain does. Pain then decides he's done playing and one shots her wih ST. Madara does the same and one shots gai with his staff.
> 
> The cirmcumstances arent different, you just cant accept the fact that you are wrong and continue to wank a feat that doesnt even show movement speed, it just taijutsu speed.
> ...



Madara underestimated Gai in the 7th Gate, he did not assume the 7th Gate to be as fast as it was. That is clearly depicted by this page, especially if you look at the bottom two panels where Madara taunts Gai for not using the 8th Gate and is then immediately surprised by his attack.

The one thing that is emphasized on the next page is Gai's initial burst caught Madara off guard and he wasn't able to return to the offensive til a tad bit later. Looking back at it, when Gai formed the seal to use Afternoon Tiger, Madara used his staff to hit Gai on the head. It was considered a simultaneous hit since Madara also had switched to offense and was hit by the AT blast. Hence the difference in distance after their skirmish ends.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

All true ryuzaki 
however if 7th gate gai is really all that
why couldn't they seal ET madara when he had backup from hachibi, BM Naruto and kakashi?

btw ET madara was holding back. no PS of any kind..he wasn't even forced to use it

doesn't that tell us something?

juudara was faced against someone hailed as a taijutsu master in cqc. juudara isn't to be expected to have done any better

considering deva couldn't swat away hinata. taijutsu masters simply>>>anyone in cqc. so long as it sticks to cqc


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> All true ryuzaki
> however if 7th gate gai is really all that
> why couldn't they seal ET madara when he had backup from hachibi, BM Naruto and kakashi?
> 
> ...


To be fair to Gai, he was beyond exhausted at that juncture, the best he did was launch his AT at Madara and sent him flying into a cliff. He had just gotten out of a fight w/multiple bijuu in V2 and was fighting pretty much all day before that.

Both Naruto and Kakashi were distracted w/Obito at the time, it was really only Killer Bee and Gai for a short amount of time. But it's hardly indicative of Gai's performance because like I said, he was beyond exhausted at that point.

The Hachibi even noticed it as well.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Madara underestimated Gai in the 7th Gate, he did not assume the 7th Gate to be as fast as it was. That is clearly depicted by this page, especially if you look at the bottom two panels where Madara taunts Gai for not using the 8th Gate and is then immediately surprised by his attack.
> 
> The one thing that is emphasized on the next page is Gai's initial burst caught Madara off guard and he wasn't able to return to the offensive til a tad bit later. Looking back at it, when Gai formed the seal to use Afternoon Tiger, Madara used his staff to hit Gai on the head. It was considered a simultaneous hit since Madara also had switched to offense and was hit by the AT blast. Hence the difference in distance after their skirmish ends.



Yep he surprised madara, madara underestimated him. He didnt expect him to be that fast. Still doesnt change the fact that his vision was obscured and wasnt in a defensive position.

Or do you want to tell me 8 gates is faster than 7 gates too? Madara was surprised here too, as you can see by his facial expression 2. Gai suddenly gets right up in his face. But madara reacts no problem this time, only difference is the strength is too much for madara to block. Nevertheless, madara does block 2. And this is a much faster attack than this 2. Look at madara, his hand his still shielding his face, he isnt even in the slightest prepared to counter at that point, hence why he jumps back.

Now look how fast Gai is moving here 2. This speed is on a completely different tier to what gai did in the 7g. Yet look at madaras face, he's relaxes and clearly tracking gais movement.

And now my fav scan of all. The first time Madara actually acknowledges Gais speed. Clearly gai is moving faster than he's ever gone at is point, because Madara feels the need to call him fast, yet he didnt prior to any of gais feats before this. Anyone wanna try and argue that 7G is faster than this right here: 
2

And look at kadara, not only does he react, he blocks. So just because the circumstances were a little different against 7G, does not in anyway  mean it should be wanked to epic proportions. Hence why i can never understand why this is even bothered to be compared to one armed sm minatos feat, who by the way is much weaker than his alive self (as madara proved when he was revived). Cuz the circumstances and priorities in that scenario were also much different.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Yep he surprised madara, madara underestimated him. He didnt expect him to be that fast. Still doesnt change the fact that his vision was obscured and wasnt in a defensive position.
> 
> Or do you want to tell me 8 gates is faster than 7 gates too? Madara was surprised here too, as you can see by his facial expression 2. Gai suddenly gets right up in his face. But madara reacts no problem this time, only difference is the strength is too much for madara to block. Nevertheless, madara does block 2. And this is a much faster attack than this 2. Look at madara, his hand his still shielding his face, he isnt even in the slightest prepared to counter at that point, hence why he jumps back.
> 
> ...



Vision problems and not being able to put up an adequate defense or execute an offense come with the territory of being in a fight. I'm not going to excuse Madara for it because his attitude about a certain opponent wasn't what it should have been. If characters have a certain flaw in their design, it's only natural that at times, it bites them in the ass.

Furthermore, the point of comparison here w/PST Juubi Madara was to establish that 7th Gated Gai > any of the Gokage (individually) in terms of speed, strength and technique and I think it was well established. In fact, his skirmish proves that none of the Gokage, individually, would be able to replicate Gai's feat in 7th Gate.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Vision problems and not being able to put up an adequate defense or execute an offense come with the territory of being in a fight. I'm not going to excuse Madara for it because his attitude about a certain opponent wasn't what it should have been. If characters have a certain flaw in their design, it's only natural that at times, it bites them in the ass.
> 
> Furthermore, the point of comparison here w/PST Juubi Madara was to establish that 7th Gated Gai > any of the Gokage (individually) in terms of speed, strength and technique and I think it was well established. In fact, his skirmish proves that none of the Gokage, individually, would be able to replicate Gai's feat in 7th Gate.



Ah jeez, now you are trying to play it off and change it completely, you gai wankers are something else. The whole point was to prove that under any other circumstance, madara would have one shotted gai. I dont give a damn if you dont want to excuse madaras handicapp. I've proved my point and shown that 7G is not remotely an issue to madara at all, because he's dealt with far worse and faster than that overhyped nonsese that you guys have taken too far. And what the hell are you going on about now, why are you acting like Gai actually did anything to madara? He missed all his attacks and got sent flying to the ground, nothing bit madara in the ass. Ive already shown you that it wasnt the underestimation, it was madara body position that prevented himself from reacting properly. Becuase i clearly showed you madara being surprised on oter occassions yet still reacting to far worse.

You and turrin are the same. Get proved wrong, have no counters, so avoid most of the posts and try to dismiss whatever you can with no counter. You really just used design flaw as your excuse 

You havent established jack. He is still weaker than tsuande in strength, his attacks cannot put tsuande down faster than gai wears himself out, and he is still slower than raikage. There is no feat, no manga statement, no databook evidence, nothing that puts Gai above them in these departments at all.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the amount of win in this post is over 9000
> *I don't even think I can rep u again. sorry*



Got it covered.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> To be fair to Gai, he was beyond exhausted at that juncture, the best he did was launch his AT at Madara and sent him flying into a cliff. He had just gotten out of a fight w/multiple bijuu in V2 and was fighting pretty much all day before that.
> 
> Both Naruto and Kakashi were distracted w/Obito at the time, it was really only Killer Bee and Gai for a short amount of time. But it's hardly indicative of Gai's performance because like I said, he was beyond exhausted at that point.
> 
> The Hachibi even noticed it as well.



but before madara came he wasn't beyond exhausted 
kyuubi chakra had healed him if you recall 

he could open 7th gate

so why didn't he shit stomp madara

because he couldn't its that simple 

kyuubi had healed gai before madara came. gai had only fought in base against obito

yet gai couldn't shit stomp ET madara with 7 gates. btw a holding back madara


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Ah jeez, now you are trying to play it off and change it completely, you gai wankers are something else. The whole point was to prove that under any other circumstance, madara would have one shotted gai. I dont give a damn if you dont want to excuse madaras handicapp. I've proved my point and shown that 7G is not remotely an issue to madara at all, because he's dealt with far worse and faster than that overhyped nonsese that you guys have taken too far. And what the hell are you going on about now, why are you acting like Gai actually did anything to madara? He missed all his attacks and got sent flying to the ground, nothing bit madara in the ass. Ive already shown you that it wasnt the underestimation, it was madara body position that prevented himself from reacting properly. Becuase i clearly showed you madara being surprised on oter occassions yet still reacting to far worse.
> 
> You and turrin are the same. Get proved wrong, have no counters, so avoid most of the posts and try to dismiss whatever you can with no counter. You really just used design flaw as your excuse
> 
> You havent established jack. He is still weaker than tsuande in strength, h*is attacks cannot put tsuande down faster than gai wears himself out*, and he is still *slower than raikage*. There is no feat, no manga statement, no databook evidence, nothing that puts Gai above them in these departments at all.


I'm just trying to put things into perspective but I'm not ignoring anything either, as I've already stated and supported your initial claim several times that PST Juubi Jin Madara > 7th Gate. However, this also establishes that 7th Gated Gai was leagues ahead of the Gokage (individually), in terms of speed, strength and technique.

The part in bold is false, 6th Gated Gai did this to a Shoten Kisame (4.0), who is rated to be much faster than Tsunade (3.5). A 7th Gated Gai did this to a Kisame hopped up on a bijuu chakra. 6th Gates is probably faster than the Raikage but for arguments sake, we'll say he's as fast him and 7th Gated Gai shits all over the Raikage's speed. 

Gaara who bore witness to Gai's speeds in the 7th Gate couldn't track him but was able to block V2 Raikage's speed. Furthermore, Gated Gai went out of his way and intercepted Kakashi out of the range of the truthseeker at the speed, something that took a Double MS Kamui to evade, completely. 

Those feats alone put Gai, in terms of speed, well above anything any of the Gokage.



Icegaze said:


> but before madara came he wasn't beyond exhausted
> kyuubi chakra had healed him if you recall
> 
> he could open 7th gate
> ...



He wasn't 100% either, that's what I'm trying to say. He had just finished sparring with multiple V2 Jinchuriki in the 6th Gate and they were tag teaming Obito. When Madara showed up and Gai took on the fight alongside teh Hachibi, he was truly exhausted (after he launched AT @ ET Madara). He was literally on his last legs, even the Hachibi noticed it.

So, personally, I don't hold it against him, but the fight against ET Madara would have been entirely different if Gai was 100% refreshed and it was solely 1 vs. 1. In his exhausted state, he was able to push a Susano'o into a cliff. The AT attack took the Susano'o like a chew toy, that's definitely better than anything the Gokage did by themselves.


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## LostSelf (Jul 22, 2015)

Kyuubi healed Gai after the AT that put him down. After that, Gai never healed in the entire war, probably.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He wasn't 100% either, that's what I'm trying to say. He had just finished sparring with multiple V2 Jinchuriki in the 6th Gate and they were tag teaming Obito. When Madara showed up and Gai took on the fight alongside teh Hachibi, he was truly exhausted (after he launched AT @ ET Madara). He was literally on his last legs, even the Hachibi noticed it.
> 
> So, personally, I don't hold it against him, but the fight against ET Madara would have been entirely different if Gai was 100% refreshed and it was solely 1 vs. 1. In his exhausted state, he was able to push a Susano'o into a cliff. The AT attack took the Susano'o like a chew toy, that's definitely better than anything the Gokage did by themselves.



u cant prove he wasn't. u just want to claim it

kyuubi healed him. why wont kyuubi healing put him back at 100%? 

he was on his last legs because he had probably taken a beating...his fight with obito he wasn't bleeding 

before the hirudora we see him bleeding..madara had been beating him up its that simply 

yh u got nothing to suggest he wasn't at 100%

nice try though

feel free to go back and read the manga again...he was healed after the fight with the jin's by kyuubi

he fought in base only against obito. Madara comes in he uses hirudora however he is visibly beat up 

so unless he was smashing his head on the ground, stands to reason madara was kicking him around


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

2

that's gai fighting in base after the jin's were defeated. u can see no gates or anything here

till madara comes then we got him kneeling over bleeding

its quite obvious he took a beating despite being in 7th gate. madara even restrained him with moukton


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u cant prove he wasn't. u just want to claim it
> 
> kyuubi healed him. why wont kyuubi healing put him back at 100%?
> 
> ...



like a chew toy

Stop running your mouth and read the manga, culero.


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> like a chew toy
> 
> Stop running your mouth and read the manga, culero.



 
quelle tarlouse cette petite enflure  


you aren't showing anything new....he is bleeding and at his limit all restrained while having used hirudora in 7th gate

are u saying madara didn't restrain him or beat him up and he was for the lolz caught in moukton

again if he could open 7th gate why not shit blitz madara and call it a day?

maybe cuz he couldn't 

u try read the manga. the guy didn't use gates again till madara showed up and it didn't help him at all


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 22, 2015)

> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > u cant prove he wasn't. u just want to claim it
> ...



The Kyuubi healed him after his fight w/Edo Madara, you yourself stated that he wasn't tired and here I've shown you that he was. 

This was immediately after they fought the V2 Jinchuriki's


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The Kyuubi healed him after his fight w/Edo Madara, you yourself stated that he wasn't tired and here I've shown you that he was.
> 
> This was immediately after they fought the V2 Jinchuriki's



the gedo fight he did use 6th gate though. so I guess you are right. 

still he could fire off hirudora why not just troll madara if he was all that.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't need to prove anything because I'm not the one trying to contest a statement here.
> You are, so I am pretty sure you have evidence to support your claim.
> .


My argument only necessitates that I prove Ei may be mistaken again. And i've done that:

Ei being proven wrong by Naruto, shows his statement is based on his personal intel. The fact that few have shown knowledge of Gai's 7th-Gate, is enough evidence to make it plausible that Ei may not have intel on 7th-Gated Gai's speed.

As long as the possibility that Ei is mistaken again exists, than i'm free to look at other evidence for why 7th-Gated Gai may be faster than Ei, such as his feat against Juubidara, in-order to formulate my opinion on whose faster.

You on the other hand wish to tell me i'm not free to do such because Ei's statement decides the argument. In which case your the one who needs to prove that the sole mistake Ei made was Naruto.



> I don't think two statements are related.
> 
> You can make a similar case for the latter part of A's statement though "now that 4th is dead." Implying 4th was faster than him.



The reasons for why one would question that statement is different, no doubt. But the reason why that statement can be questioned in the first place is not. That statement can be questioned because we do not know if Kishimoto is the orator, speaking through, Itachi, to tell readers Itachi's standings in comparison to Jiraiya's, or if Itachi himself is the orator, and therefore his word are subject to the limitations and motivations of his character, rather than being the words of God. The same is true of Ei's statement, and any less would be a blatant double standard. 



> Thats only if you ignore the context. A's statement didn't involve Naruto.



Ei claimed he was the fastest person alive, Naruto is alive, therefore it contextually involves Naruto.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Theres no difference. Gai attacks when Madaras guard is down (while he's shielding his eyes).
> .



Honestly dude, your failing to look at circumstances, I.E. the difference in how Juubidara and Deva reacted to their attacks.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

Juudara jumped back
so did deva

no difference


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## Jad (Jul 23, 2015)

What I find interesting is people saying Gai did not push back Juubidara still.

Gai would have had to push Juubidara a fair amount, so that the Hirudora's blast did not hit Minato, Gaara and Kakashi, since it exploded point blank on Gai.

This is the blast radius of Hirudora compared to the Tree, that's massive distance in my opinion [1] You also have to account for the blast that isn't illustrated in the 'white blob', the shock wave that comes from that 'white blob'.

This is how far Gai was from the group when he engaged Juubidara [2] using Minato's head as a reference. Put it this way, Gai was close enough to Juubidara and Minato, in the middle, for his aura to still be felt by both parties. 

If Gai only pushed Juudara say 5 meters, or as some people say, Juudara simply jumped back, that Hirudora would have smashed them, based on it's size.

Now before you say, Minato transported Gaara and Kakashi away (without proof), they'd have to know BEFORE hand that Hirudora was going to explode on Gai. Usually the technique picks up it's opponent, drags them away, than explodes. That means, Minato would have had to known the blast happened preemptively, than tell Kakashi and Gaara to touch him, for teleportation. That's not going to conveniently happen - the time frame won't allow it. Especially with a technique like Hirudora that is described as an instant expansive explosion, and depicted as such as well.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

Jad said:


> What I find interesting is people saying Gai did not push back Juubidara still.
> 
> Gai would have had to push Juubidara a fair amount, so that the Hirudora's blast did not hit Minato, Gaara and Kakashi, since it exploded point blank on Gai.



or gai before amping to 7th gate jumped far away from minato and the others

and juudara was standing quite far from minato and the others to begin with 

just 



> This is the blast radius of Hirudora compared to the Tree, that's massive distance in my opinion [1] You also have to account for the blast that isn't illustrated in the 'white blob', the shock wave that comes from that 'white blob'.



ok



> This is how far Gai was from the group when he engaged Juubidara [2] using Minato's head as a reference. Put it this way, Gai was close enough to Juubidara and Minato, in the middle, for his aura to still be felt by both parties.



true 



> If Gai only pushed Juudara say 5 meters, or as some people say, Juudara simply jumped back, that Hirudora would have smashed them, based on it's size.



or maybe juudara can jump back 100m in 1 go. due to being a god and all



> Now before you say, Minato transported Gaara and Kakashi away (without proof), they'd have to know BEFORE hand that Hirudora was going to explode on Gai. Usually the technique picks up it's opponent, drags them away, than explodes. That means, Minato would have had to known the blast happened preemptively, than tell Kakashi and Gaara to touch him, for teleportation. That's not going to conveniently happen - the time frame won't allow it. Especially with a technique like Hirudora that is described as an instant expansive explosion, and depicted as such as well.




or seeign that they had knowledge on hirudora at least kakashi would have. 

he coudl have informed minato who teleported them

though i agree that never happened

it isnt described as an expansive explosion 

Db statement please

it certainly expands slower than minato reactions though


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## LostSelf (Jul 23, 2015)

Of course Juudara was pushed back.

Why would he need to jump and slide in the ground that way like skating in ice just for the lulz?


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## Jad (Jul 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> or gai before amping to 7th gate jumped far away from minato and the others
> 
> and juudara was standing quite far from minato and the others to begin with
> 
> ...



Juudara never moved from his spot when Gai enganged him, so we know roughly how far the 'fight' was compared to the group. If Gai only pushed him 5 meters in that engagement, the Hirudora would have smashed the group. Since by some, Juudara only moved back a few meters from the fight.

The thing I don't understand is your point: "Juudara jumped back 100 meters back". That would mean that when Gai engaged Juudara, Juudara jumped back 100 meters, Gai re-enganged him (stuck to him like glue) and fired Hirudora. Which is sought of, iffy to think about it, because that means Juudara was running from Gai for a reason, and that reason amounted to nothing until Hirudora came out. You understand what I mean? I may have not typed it the best way.

The 'expansive' comment, is me talking about how a person STILL had to be very well away from the 'white blob' that depicted the Hirudora blast. For instance, you can't just be standing 1 cm away from that 'white blob' (explosion) because the blasts shock wave is still going to be massively damaging to you.



LostSelf said:


> Of course Juudara was pushed back.
> 
> Why would he need to jump and slide in the ground that way like skating in ice just for the lulz?



I'm actually not talking about that scene. I'm talking about when Gai fought Juudara in Taijutsu. However, that makes it twice Gai moved Juudara forcefully in my opinion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 23, 2015)

Kakashi was pushed back by genin Sasuke.
Deva realm was pushed back by Hinata.

Guys, I'd give it to you if Madara didn't one shot Gai shortly after, but that did happen. He did that pretty effortleslly too, by basically swinging down his arm and gai was done for.


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## Jad (Jul 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi was pushed back by genin Sasuke.
> Deva realm was pushed back by Hinata.
> 
> Guys, I'd give it to you if Madara didn't one shot Gai shortly after, but that did happen. He did that pretty effortleslly too, by basically swinging down his arm and gai was done for.



I think my points on how far Gai actually pushed Juudara back should debunk your comparison. Because Gai would have had to push Juudara back well away from the group, that they would not be affected by Hirudora's massive blast range. Had he only pushed him back (or Juudara simply jumped back) about 5 meters, everyone would be on the ground like Gai (besides Juudara).

If you believe Juudara was the entire time backing away from Gai for hundreds of meters, it makes your point less-understanding in my view.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2015)

Jad said:


> If you believe Juudara was the entire time backing away from Gai for hundreds of meters, it makes your point less-understanding in my view.



Madara didn't back up for hundreds of meters. 

Or do you think Kakashi was able to get a kunai to a Gai that was 200 meters away before Madara's Truth Seeker got there from about a dozen meters out?


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

or maybe jad like i thought previously hirudora explosion is simply not that big

juudara wasnt more than 70m away from gai after the blast

nor could gai have been more than 70m from kakashi

considering how easily kakashi could throw a kunai to gai location 

i really just think while gai engagement with juudara holds merit, its being wanked to infinity and beyond

gai performance against juudara doesnt remotely suggest he can 1 panel the likes of nagato or defeat the gokage

not even slightly 

when we remember he did go 7th gate against ET madara who was holding back and he didnt troll ET madara


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi was pushed back by genin Sasuke.
> Deva realm was pushed back by Hinata.
> 
> Guys, I'd give it to you if Madara didn't one shot Gai shortly after, but that did happen. He did that pretty effortleslly too, by basically swinging down his arm and gai was done for.



It was his staff 

I never wanted to say anything more than 7th Gated > Gokage (individually) and his skirmish alone sort of implies that so I'm okay with the results.

But, yeah, 7th Gated Gai was clearly outclassed by PST Madara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 23, 2015)

Jad said:


> I think my points on how far Gai actually pushed Juudara back should debunk your comparison. Because Gai would have had to push Juudara back well away from the group, that they would not be affected by Hirudora's massive blast range. Had he only pushed him back (or Juudara simply jumped back) about 5 meters, everyone would be on the ground like Gai (besides Juudara).
> 
> If you believe Juudara was the entire time backing away from Gai for hundreds of meters, it makes your point less-understanding in my view.



But bro, you are focusing on the "pushing back" part and neglecting the rest.
Hirudora is 7th Gate Gai's fastest and strongest attack, and Madara intercepted that and brough Gai down. 
So the rest of the punches and kicks don't mean anything as Madara proved that he was capable of countering Gai's strongest move. 

You may question why Madara didn't immediately oneshot Gai, but waited for a couple of seconds before he did, and I may answer that by saying once he felt like Gai was about to bring forth something serious, he decided to stop playing and brought him down.

He clearly underestimated Gai and was just "testing him" just like he was testing the Gokage @ the start of the fight, he didn't retaliate or use his powerful moves, he just tanked their shit to assess what they were capable of. Madara is a overcocky douchebag. It was established the instant he was brought back with Edo Tensei.

What Gai did was impressive physically, but lets not get ahead of ourselves here.

I also think what Sasuke did in the bell test was pretty impressive.


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## LostSelf (Jul 24, 2015)

Another thing i found about Ei's knowledge is this scan.

Apparently, what was told was the techniques of the jutsus, not extremely exact information like "Gai moves 300km/h". Maybe what he was told was that Gai could open gates, up to 7, and that's it. Or maybe only that he can open the celestial gates. 

Another thing in this scan is that the villages shared their information to Shikaku, probably. And Shikaku advised Ei and formulated plans. There might've been no need to tell him that Gai's slower than him. 

Heck, the information probably wasn't even delivered to Ei and Shikaku used to tell him when the time came about it. For example, saying that Sai can do X jutsus when he was formulating the plan in the war.

Unless Ei's extremely inteligent enough to gather and remember the info of thousands of Shinobis. Something not likely.


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Fair point at lostself 

however a shinobi potentially faster than A would be somethign he would remember. seeing that he cant seem to forget minato

if gai were faster he will give him high praise

now considering gates isnt some unknown jutsu, info of gai being able to open them to a certain level would peak A interest enough to ask more questions


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## LostSelf (Jul 25, 2015)

But that's if Ei knew. Shikaku had no need to tell Ei about it considering that would be irrelevant since Gai's an ally. 

Ei was labelled as the fastest man, he might've not known that somebody surpassed him time after (Dai had the eight gate and Ei didn't know about it, for example), considering Gai was not famous. Almost nobody knew him. But that's just theorizing. The recent scan i posted above (discovered thank to Turrin in another thread that has nothing to do with this) made me believe that Ei wasn't given the information.

Shikaku (and others tacticians probably) was. As stated by Temari and that he's the only one known to be smart enough to remember all of the village's jutsus.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2015)

Potential doesn't matter. 
Dai possesing the 8th Gate doesn't make him faster than A. That gives him the potential to be faster than him, and using it means he will be dead afterwards.

Also these arguments all rely on the premise that A didn't know anyhing about gates or Gai or both before shinobi alliance was formed.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 25, 2015)

I think it would be easier to find out how much more powerful/faster JJ Madara is than Edo Madara, because it was Edo Madara that was able to punch a hole through Ei's chest. Ei was obviously not fast enough to dodge him but 7th Gate Gai was able to touch/push back/tag a form of Madara that I feel to be stronger/faster than Edo Madara.


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## Trojan (Jul 25, 2015)

> Edo Madara that was able to punch a hole through Ei's chest. Ei was obviously not fast enough to dodge him



What do you mean/what are you referring to?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2015)

Nothing, just ignore what he said.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 25, 2015)

*@ Hussain*

Oh, when they showed all the Kage defeated, Ei was slumped against a rock with blood coming out his mouth, and what looked like a hand/fist size chest wound, but I could just have a bad memory.

Nevermind, I think his chest is just bloody, maybe. I could have sworn he had a hole on his left side but the blood is on the right.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

We dont know by what margin Hirudora is faster than any other 7 Gate attack. If it is faster by little margin, there is nothing bad about Juubidara blocking Hirudora, especially when it requires a seal. Plus, his face expressions in that confrontation. He was surprised about Gai's speed whe Gai rushed at him and was feared by Gai's attempt to create Hirudora. Also, there is a possibility that Juubidara put there a staff to nerfe Hirudora's effect *after* air pressure was released, thus after Hirudora was already *made*. Plus, what reason does he have to play with Gai, when he havent played with Fourth Hokage?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 25, 2015)

14 pages...wow. This is way out of guy's pay grade. He can get blindsided, straight up overwhelmed, outlasted you name it. He can't win tho.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> *Spoiler*: __



I hope you *DO* understand it was an exam, thus Kakashi wasnt serious with Sasuke, right? Because if he was, Sasuke would have been dead. 

Juubidara's case was during the war, with Gai being his enemy. There was completely no sense for Juubidara to play with Gai, especially when he havent played with SM Minato, whom he blitzed from the start. I understand a case with 5 Kage's, whom he wanted to test because they were 5 Kage. But Gai? Whom he tried to kill right after Hirudora? 

Juubidara couldnt blitz him, obviously. Because he wasnt fast enough to do that. And he was clearly surprised by Gai's speed. 

Also, Gaara was shocked at 7 Gate Gai's speed level, although he wasnt shocked so much about even lightened V2 Ei.

Individually, 7 Gate Gai can take out anyone from The Gokage. Ei gets blitzed by Hirudora and knocked out, since Hirudora had enough force to heavily damage Madara's V3 Susanoo. Tsunade may very well get her head detached by Hirudora. I wont explain things about the rest of them - it is obvious they cant tank Hirudora.

And your arguement of Kisame surviving Hirudora... Countered so many times. Gai wasnt trying to kill him, because Kisame had important information for Shinobi Alliance. If he wanted to, Kisame would have been killed by that Hirudora. His basic 7 Gate punch to the chest made Kisame bleed. Imagine what a killing-intent Hirudora could make to him.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Despite juudara saying he will play with 8th gate Gai 

Yet somehow makes no sense that he won't play with a faaaaar weaker 7th gate gai


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Despite juudara saying he will play with 8th gate Gai
> 
> Yet somehow makes no sense that he won't play with a faaaaar weaker 7th gate gai



Scan of Juubidara saying he will play with 8 Gate Gai.


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Feel free to go back to the chapter after gai first EE strike
When he comes out the crater


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Feel free to go back to the chapter after gai first EE strike
> When he comes out the crater



LOL, what a debater. You asked me to provide scans so many times, yet cant provide only 1 scan? 

Anyway, i remember that chapter and Juubidara has never said anything like that.


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Your right he didn't 
He did however ask Gai if he had more after EE barrage from gear 1 to 5

So someone who can take such and not feel he will die from it 

Was somehow too afraid of 7th gate Gai ? Oh really


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Your right he didn't
> He did however ask Gai if he had more after EE barrage from gear 1 to 5
> 
> So someone who can take such and not feel he will die from it
> ...



He asked. So what? By the way, have you seen Juubidara's face expression when he blocked EE's very first step? 

Not "too afraid", but at the same time, he wasnt playing around. He wasnt playing around with 8 Gate Gai too. He was just excited about fighting him.


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## LostSelf (Jul 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Potential doesn't matter.
> Dai possesing the 8th Gate doesn't make him faster than A. That gives him the potential to be faster than him, and using it means he will be dead afterwards.
> 
> Also these arguments all rely on the premise that A didn't know anyhing about gates or Gai or both before shinobi alliance was formed.



So then, 7th gate shouldn't either. As they're part of the same jutsu.


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## Jad (Jul 26, 2015)

I'm gonna start this small post, before I make a bigger post, to address the "Gai pushing back Juudara" point.

I believe that Gai pushed back Juudara based on a few points. I guess the first one being that Gaara and Minato had time to string a few words, sentences along, while Gai was fighting Juudara. And because of the speed 7th Gate is, so fast that it caused after images, and allowing for time that Gaara and Minato to actually witness the display, accounting for all that, I believe Gai definitely pushed back Juudara and it wasnt't just a simple "Juudara jumping back". And based on the speed Gai was moving at, a hundred of meters makes sense that Gai was pushing back Juudara. You may say that Juudara was slowing Gai's speed down, I'd say as well, as they were 'calshing' so much that Juudara in their 'clashes' couldn't use his staff to injure Gai. But Juudara wasn't slowing Gai down so much that causing after-images, and Gaara's comments based on his speed, would account for a distance crossed less than a few meters.

This is my main point however in why I believe Gai moved Juudara far away from the group. I stated this already, and that's based on Hirudora's blast. Hirudora if you look at the scan on Chapter 667 compared to the tree is MASSIVE. Meaning if Gai did not push Juudara back far away from the group, they'd be pinned down in the blast with no warning; like Gai.



Rocky said:


> Madara didn't back up for hundreds of meters.
> 
> Or do you think Kakashi was able to get a kunai to a Gai that was 200 meters away before Madara's Truth Seeker got there from about a dozen meters out?



Rocky brought this up, and I think he is looking at the situation wrong. The blast size happened, it's there pretty plain, black and white there [1]. There is no getting around the fact that the blast would have smashed Minato and co had Gai not pushed back Juudara far away. So whatever reason I state here as to how Kakashi threw Minato's Kunai seemingly with the Truth Seeker ball that Juudara threw, is something you accept, or you take it as an off panel scenario. My view on this, is that because of the awkward Hirudora blast that was cut in half by Juudara, and overlapped them [2]. The force in my opinion sent them hurling back towards, near Minato and co. *Combined *with the fact that Minato and co. would have been rushing towards the destruction, probably with Shunshin (either from Minato or them just crossing hundreds of meters  using the ninjutsu on their own - we know how convenient Shunshin speed is), would have had time to assert Gai was in danger and try to save him. Even in this panel, Minato looks like he was running then threw the Kunai, and Kakashi stopped running, showing part by his hair being pushed forwards, about to throw the item [3]. Even look at his duffel bag in that scan, and how it's a float on Kakashi's back.

Back to Gai pushing back Juudara, Gai was moving in each Taijutsu maneuver in 'body lengths', meaning he wasn't using many small Taijutsu maneuvers in a  space of 1 meter. He was moving at the length of his body at each combat move. To do that to someone, use your whole body at each length, with each move, who you are clearly clashing with based on illustration, and still continue onwards, would have to mean they were pushing their opponent back. Again, he wasn't using intricate moves (plural) in a space of 1 meter, he was 'clashing' with Juudara using his whole body as a 'move' at each turn. The clashes signifying from what we only saw, Juudara on the defensive as Kishimoto did not illustrate Juudara being able to retaliate in the SAME fashion as he did with Minato a chapter ago.

-------

Also what I think LostSelf is talking about is, A [Raikage] may knew of Gai as Taijutsu fighters, but the 'specifics' of Gai's speed, I mean the nitty gritty details, he probably didn't know, or didn't need to focus on it [80,000 Shinobi, 'Taijutsu fighter master' is probably enough information]. In my opinion, Gaara's comment "His movement's aren't human" trumps A's comment on proclaiming himself to be "the fastest Shinobi". In all honesty, anyone who goes up against Minato in terms of speed fight, and survives, is safe to assume that they will bill them self at a pretty high level. I mean at least Gaara's comment is an outsider perspective, not Gai proclaiming as such.


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## Icegaze (Jul 26, 2015)

Jad my only issue is anyone making the foolish conclusion that 
His encounter with juudara somehow means anyone weaker than juudara would instantlh die against 7th gate Gai

Considering juudara didn't use Anythinf in his arsenal 

that encounter doesn't really imply tsunade or any of the kages will simply get their heads kicked off or can't ever react to Gai 

Considering the state Gai was in against ET madara who held back . No reason at all for Gai to hear madara beat the 5 kages and not go at him full force


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> So then, 7th gate shouldn't either. As they're part of the same jutsu.



They are different steps of the same jutsu. But Gai has used 7 gates before, so Gai's maximum recorded strength is with 7 gates. So when someone is making a statement about Gai, or a statement that invovles Gai, they will be accounting in his maximum recorded strength, not his unknown potential.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 26, 2015)

I dont get why people are trying to use the 8th gate to invalidate the statements of others. 8th gate does not count in statements such as who is the fastest.

This same logic tells us that Gai was the strongest ninja to ever live and that all the reputation about hashirama is invalid. So when ninja say there is no one stronger than hashirama, does that mean it was a lie and they are wrong because 8 gates exist.


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## Icegaze (Jul 26, 2015)

thank you Rasen I await a few people "smart retort" to your post


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## StarWanderer (Jul 27, 2015)

No one knew how fast Gai can be after opening 8 Gate. 

And Ei has never, ever seen 7 Gate Gai in action. 



> Jad my only issue is anyone making the foolish conclusion that
> His encounter with juudara somehow means anyone weaker than juudara would instantlh die against 7th gate Gai
> 
> Considering juudara didn't use Anythinf in his arsenal
> ...



Not anyone, but almost anyone.

Nevertheless, any of The Gokage gets beaten in a 1 on 1 confrontation. Tsunade gets her head torn off and Ei gets knocked out. 

Dont bring that thing as an example. Madara had lots of Jutsu to counter 7 Gate's force. And we dont know what happened there, at all. It was off-panel.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

What Jutsu does ET madara have to counter 7th gate Gai ?
He didn't use PS 

So what else does he have ?

Also if you are saying ET madara could counter gai to the point he was in the state he was in while Gai was holding back 

Then I don't see how gai doesn't get low diff'd here

aLso if you say almost anyone who are those not related to So6p that can be excluded ?

Hashirama ? He and tsunade have the same level of healing 

Susanoo users ? have slower reactions than Minato so i don't get how they react (itachi and sasuke ) but minato doesn't 

are those people chosen on fan bias ? Just curious


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## StarWanderer (Jul 27, 2015)

> What Jutsu does ET madara have to counter 7th gate Gai ?



There was no signs of Gai using Hirudora during that off-panel time, or 7 Gate at all. Even if he used it, Madara had his Susanoo which he could activate right before Gai opened 7 Gate. His Susanoo is durable enough to withstand basic 7 Gate attacks.



> Also if you are saying ET madara could counter gai to the point he was in the state he was in while Gai was holding back
> 
> Then I don't see how gai doesn't get low diff'd here



We dont know what happened during that off-panel time. At all. But of course, you can fantasise about that and create your own fanfic based on nothing, unlike Ei using V2 against ET Madara, for example. That's your choice.

However, with that fanfic of yours, you wont go far in this debate.



> aLso if you say almost anyone who are those not related to So6p that can be excluded ?
> 
> Hashirama ? He and tsunade have the same level of healing



SM Hashirama, however, has a level of durability that allows him to survive 7 Gate Gai's basic punches and Hirudora, which Tsunade lacks.

The other ones - Itachi (reacted to Kirin thanks to MS), EMS Madara and EMS Sasuke (obvious reasons), BM/BSM Naruto (level of durability), Third Raikage (level of durability), Suigetsu/Gengetsu (if 7 Gate's sweat wont do anything to them). Well, that's all, i suppose.



> Susanoo users ? have slower reactions than Minato so i don't get how they react (itachi and sasuke ) but minato doesn't



Itachi reacted to a jutsu which can travel from high sky to the ground in a speed of 1/1000 of a second. EMS Sasuke and EMS Madara possess even better ayes than those of Itachi.



> are those people chosen on fan bias ? Just curious



Nope.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

itachi also got hit by a shiruken 
guess that shiruken moves faster than the speed of light 

also odd how people with slower reactions than minato can react, use chakra to defend themselves before minato simply loosens the grip on his kunai 

didnt know sasuke had reacted to things such as kamui mid wrap....


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> thank you Rasen I await a few people "smart retort" to your post



Kakashi, Lee nor Tsuande have never even remotely stated or commented on Gais speed.

Kakashi is the most reliable out of all of these, he knows exactly what his eternal rival is made of. Yet never made claim that gai is the fastest. The manga doesnt take such reputations lightly, if you are the best in something, its usually hinted and most down right stated. Tsuande who was right there with Ei and KCM Naruto didnt say a word about Gai, she didn't disagree with Eis comments, and she was surprised to see Naruto could even keep up with him. If Gai was even remotely in their bracket, his name would have come up sooner or later.

Madara never said anything about Gais speed, he did about Ei though. He downright complimented Eis speed. With Gai, he said nothing about his speed, not until the first step of Evening Elephant in the 8th Gate did Madara call him fast. Madara faced Ei and praised his speed (that was just V1). If Gai was faster than Ei, madara would have brought it up, either by comparing him to raikage or just praising his speed in general...Madara did neither.

Minato was also there. He knows Ei very well and exactly how fast he is. Did he say anything about Gais speed? Nope, wasn't worth bringing up. You know someone like minato who is based on speed and knows all about Ei would have said "wow he is as faster or faster than raikage". Again no such thing was said. Kakashi was also there, he wasnt impressed. No one mentioned the word "fast" or "speed" during gais actions. Not until 8th gate did madara notice gais speed/feel the need to praise it, so im not sure what people are wanking to.

I cant stand the fact that a clear cut statement a out Raikage is trying to be debated based on poor opinion. When its just fact, Ei didnt say he was the fastest...Kishi did through Eis mouth. How else was he supposed to say it? Did Kishi have Gai in the back of his mind to save for later lol. Nope. No idea why facts are trying to be discussed and dismissed.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Kakashi, Lee nor Tsuande have never even remotely stated or commented on Gais speed.
> 
> Kakashi is the most reliable out of all of these, he knows exactly what his eternal rival is made of. Yet never made claim that gai is the fastest. The manga doesnt take such reputations lightly, if you are the best in something, its usually hinted and most down right stated. Tsuande who was right there with Ei and KCM Naruto didnt say a word about Gai, she didn't disagree with Eis comments, and she was surprised to see Naruto could even keep up with him. If Gai was even remotely in their bracket, his name would have come up sooner or later.
> 
> ...



thread/
only gaara seemed impressed by gai speed. not one word was mentioned by minato or kakashi

one would think either would mention his speed as impressive or kakashi would dig at minato saying he is even faster than you

then again how could he be. havent seen ninja being able to move faster than they can throw kunai

considering kakashi with no effort was able to throw a kunai as fast as gedu-dama, 

bee stopping amaterasu by throwing a tanto, 

sasuke throwing a shiruken to stop itachi from casting seals before he used amaterasu

and my fav lee throwing a kunai in front of 8th gate gai

which really falls in line with every thing shown in the manga

ninja can throw objects faster than they can move or other ninja can move. or again minato marking kunai would be massively stupid


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## StarWanderer (Jul 27, 2015)

> itachi also got hit by a shiruken
> guess that shiruken moves faster than the speed of light



Are you serious?

He didnt have *movement speed* to dodge it. I thought it is pretty obvious.

He saved himself from Kirin jutsu due to his insane reaction speed and Susanoo activation speed.



> also odd how people with slower reactions than minato can react, use chakra to defend themselves before minato simply loosens the grip on his kunai



Such as?



> didnt know sasuke had reacted to things such as kamui mid wrap....



Sasuke traced Juubito's movements with his EMS, which gives the best precognition, even above that of MS. 



> only gaara seemed impressed by gai speed. not one word was mentioned by minato or kakashi



Why Gaara wasnt shocked by Ei's speed, yet was completely shocked by 7 Gate Gai's speed?

And do you understand that Ei has never seen Gated Gai in combat?


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> He didnt have *movement speed* to dodge it. I thought it is pretty obvious.
> 
> ...



so are u implying MS sasuke cant use susanoo in time against 7th gate gai. but itachi can due to lol 
using susanoo against kirin 

which was obviously coming and couldnt have moved before sasuke swung his hand down lol

as to why sasuke didnt see itachi use susanoo is simple. a massive lightning bolt was blocking his LOS

why didnt minato or kakashi comment on gai speed? both know of A. minato in fact lived trolling A speed

well entirely possible he hasnt, maybe he has. you know who has seen gated user in combat and knows gai very well kakashi. yet not 1 mention of gai being impressive 

in any case reacting to kamui wrap without any knowledge that its about to happen is an insane reaction feat

though i find it super ridiculous itachi got the reaction feats to react to lightning yet its ridiculous minato uses hirashin twice before 8th gate gai can move

was gai using EE faster than the speed of light? since we wanna be silly with all of this

if u thnk he was explain how madara could still see gai moving, and why gai would go through the process of running in circles round him to confuse juudara. why not just run and kick his head off?


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## Jad (Jul 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why didnt minato or kakashi comment on gai speed? both know of A. minato in fact lived trolling A speed



Minato didn't even comment on Gai's speed in the 8th Gate. Why he didn't comment on Gai's speed in the 7th Gate shouldn't be the be all or end of all to the debate. Plus Kishimoto already had Gaara comment on his speed. As for why didn't Kakashi comment on Gai's speed, his not surprised by it, nor should he.

Rather, none of the Kage thought Gai's attempt of engaging Juudara in the 7 Gates was a foolish attempt, which is telling in my opinion. Especially Kakashi, who if you want to read into it, thought that even Gai's level of Taijutsu wasn't enough to dent Juudara. And if he thought that, he MUST have previously probably thought Gai was strong enough to damage the Juubi Jinchuuriki. That's again telling, coming from someone as smart as Kakashi. Talking about this panel here [1]


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

Jad said:


> Minato didn't even comment on Gai's speed in the 8th Gate. Why he didn't comment on Gai's speed in the 7th Gate shouldn't be the be all or end of all to the debate. Plus Kishimoto already had Gaara comment on his speed. As for why didn't Kakashi comment on Gai's speed, his not surprised by it, nor should he.
> 
> Rather, none of the Kage thought Gai's attempt of engaging Juudara in the 7 Gates was a foolish attempt, which is telling in my opinion. Especially Kakashi, who if you want to read into it, thought that even Gai's level of Taijutsu wasn't enough to dent Juudara. And if he thought that, he MUST have previously probably thought Gai was strong enough to damage the Juubi Jinchuuriki.Talking about this panel here [1]



well he did sorta outspeed 8th gate gai in the end. so i dont see the need for the comment from minato 


also firmly disagree with the breakdown turrin presented which makes it apparently impossible for lee to have thrown a kunai faster than gai can move. 

yes he had gaara. of all the worthy people to give gai speed praise

do you not think the guy whose speed kishi has wanked to the ends of earth rating gai speed would mean more than a comment from gaara?

what do u mean none of the kage. the only kage there was minato

why would it be foolish, physical attacks was the only way to harm juudara with senjutsu out of the equation 

kakashi did say 7th gate wasnt enough in the end didnt he. he also showed no surprise that it wasnt enough. 

not trying to bring gai down here. but the whole he pressured juudara therefore he murks the verse is getting bothersome and quite silly 

does he beat any kage 1 on 1 sure, these kages arent really all that when you think about it

but 5 vs 1 is ridiculously pushing it. 

one could just say it took juudara level speed to block Sm minato attack. therefore he rapes the 5 kages since all kages are horribly slower and weaker than he is 

since its obvious bullshit. the same for gai..

btw hirashin level 1 is far easier to counter than rasen flash dance style 3.


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## Jad (Jul 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes he had gaara. of all the worthy people to give gai speed praise
> 
> do you not think the guy whose speed kishi has wanked to the ends of earth rating gai speed would mean more than a comment from gaara?



I think it would as well, but it came from Gaara. However the comment not coming from Minato shouldn't be your way of ending the debate.Anyways, Minato's comment was instead shock in Gai's usage of the Gates - which may have deeper meaning. For instance, it could be about how the Gates are pretty powerful tool and hard to master, which is a pretty cool tick for Gai.



> what do u mean none of the kage. the only kage there was minato



I meant to mention Gaara, Minato and Kakashi - was typing too fast.



> why would it be foolish, physical attacks was the only way to harm juudara with senjutsu out of the equation



Gai attempted the fight alone, and none of the Kage's seemed to have objected to it. Plus at the same time, they didn't think Gai's level of Taijutsu was that low that it would result in nothing. Hence Kakashi saying 'our' in the panel.



> kakashi did say 7th gate wasnt enough in the end didnt he. he also showed no surprise that it wasnt enough.



Well I posted the scan, and he had thought that Gai's 7th Gate level of Taijutsu would do something.Which is like I say, pretty telling coming from someone as smart as Kakashi and as knowledgeable towards his friend.


---------


Also would love to see the Raw for this page: 1

Because a translator had Minato's line as being

1

Min: just as I thought. When guy activates the eight gates…\\


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 27, 2015)

Jad said:


> Minato didn't even comment on Gai's speed in the 8th Gate. Why he didn't comment on Gai's speed in the 7th Gate shouldn't be the be all or end of all to the debate. Plus Kishimoto already had Gaara comment on his speed. As for why didn't Kakashi comment on Gai's speed, his not surprised by it, nor should he.
> 
> Rather, none of the Kage thought Gai's attempt of engaging Juudara in the 7 Gates was a foolish attempt, which is telling in my opinion. Especially Kakashi, who if you want to read into it, thought that even Gai's level of Taijutsu wasn't enough to dent Juudara. And if he thought that, he MUST have previously probably thought Gai was strong enough to damage the Juubi Jinchuuriki. That's again telling, coming from someone as smart as Kakashi. Talking about this panel here [1]



Exactly, Gais level of taijutsu is what pushed madara back. But where is is so called speed? Gai could not have been moving at high speeds because its impossible for him to be throwing punches and kicks while simultaneously maintaining high speed movement, that doesn't even make sene. Not to mention Juudaras own movement which was him simply back peddling/hopping, so unless Madara walking backwards equated to speed superior to Ei, then its just BS nonsense regarding Gais speed. The only speed feat he showed is when Madara was covering his eyes and Gai approached him. And even then, we didnt see the point at which he moved because he was shielded by all of the debris and wind.

Minato after seeing the first evening elephant was like "Is that yours?!" He was in disbelief at how powerful the attack was. To which Lee explained the attack and speed to minato. So of course minato wasnt gonna comment on his speed, he gets it. Kishi usually does one wank per character in such scenarios. Not to mention Madara already commented on the 8th gate speed. As a writer, it is redundant for kishi to make more than one character comment on the same thing. Especially when Juudara who is eons more powerful than minato has already commented on it. What difference would minato brining it up again make? 

Gai having enough power to damage a juubi jinchuuriki doesnt mean anything. Minato has enough to damage a juubi jin, heck Kakashi himself does as well. If Madara didnt counter Minato, that rasengan would have hurt him . If kakashis eye wasnt bad, he would have been able to seriously damage madara with kamui. Just means gai also has the requirements to hurt a juubi jin, no different from the likes of hashirama, sage naruto, or kabuto, or minato or kakashi. Problem is none of them are at a high enough level to get past a juubi jins defence.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

one thing I find odd Rasen is that people like Ryuzaki or starwanderer are free to say gai was exhausted from previous gate usage which is why he didn't simply bum rush ET madara in 7 gates and murk him (lol though that cant happen)

but moving on so gai tired is handicapped but Minato with 1 hand somehow isn't 

when loosing a hand took away his ability to use clones or rasen flash style dance 3 which is well above jumping to a singular kunai in front of your opponent 

gai pushed juudara back. no denying it..but lets not act like minato getting beat casually was him using the best of his abilities because it clearly wasn't 

nothing gai did indicates he can blitz several other people on his tier. pushing back juudara is that, pushing back juudara in a cqc confrontation


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

> so are u implying MS sasuke cant use susanoo in time against 7th gate gai. but itachi can due to lol
> using susanoo against kirin



Even if he can, due to MS, his Susanoo isnt durable enough to protect him against Hirudora. 



> which was obviously coming and couldnt have moved before sasuke swung his hand down lol



His Susanoo wasnt activated after Sasuke moved down his hand.



> as to why sasuke didnt see itachi use susanoo is simple. a massive lightning bolt was blocking his LOS



Yes, after it moved down at Itachi. In a speed of 1/1000 of a second and caused massive explosion. Itachi was still in Sasuke's LOS, due to him being not behind that lightning, but below Sasuke, on the ground, where Sasuke could see him.



> why didnt minato or kakashi comment on gai speed? both know of A. minato in fact lived trolling A speed



Well, Minato's face was a little bit impressed, as i remember. And Gaara, who knew how fast Ei could be, was shocked about his speed.

Anyway, 7 Gate Gai's feat with Juubidara puts him way above Raikage in terms of speed. I dont think it is even debatable.



> well entirely possible he hasnt, maybe he has. you know who has seen gated user in combat and knows gai very well kakashi. yet not 1 mention of gai being impressive



He knew how good Gai can be. Gaara havent known that and was completely shocked, although he saw even lightened V2 Ei.



> in any case reacting to kamui wrap without any knowledge that its about to happen is an insane reaction feat



First, Minato is not the only character who is capable of such a feat. Second, that has nothing to do with our debate here. 



> though i find it super ridiculous itachi got the reaction feats to react to lightning yet its ridiculous minato uses hirashin twice before 8th gate gai can move



He had Mangekyou Sharingan. 

And 8 Gate Gai slowed down there. We already discussed that.



> was gai using EE faster than the speed of light? since we wanna be silly with all of this



We dont know.



> if u thnk he was explain how madara could still see gai moving, and why gai would go through the process of running in circles round him to confuse juudara. why not just run and kick his head off?



To increase his speed? 

And i dont know if he was, or wasnt moving at lightning speed. There is no indication of that in manga.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

So then itachi has better reactions than juudara ? Since you want to claim itschi reacts to speed of light but somehow you aren't sure Gai was moving at the speed of light 
 weeeeeak


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So then itachi has better reactions than juudara ? Since you want to claim itschi reacts to speed of light but somehow you aren't sure Gai was moving at the speed of light
> weeeeeak



Not better, but he has a chance to activate his Susanoo before 7 Gate Gai reaches him. 

And reaching the ground from the sky in 1/1000 of a second = light speed? Realy?


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

Then how did you know it was 1/10000 of a second ?
What did u base that on ?

Go on tell me


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Then how did you know it was 1/10000 of a second ?
> What did u base that on ?
> 
> Go on tell me



How did i know that Kirin's speed was so fast it reached the ground from the sky for 1/1000 of a second? Well, Kishimoto confirmed that in the manga.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> How did i know that Kirin's speed was so fast it reached the ground from the sky for 1/1000 of a second? Well, Kishimoto confirmed that in the manga.




scans how did he confirm that


its amazing how your delusion works


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## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> scans how did he confirm that
> 
> 
> its amazing how your delusion works



He made a statement of that for Zetsu just for lulz?


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He made a statement of that for Zetsu just for lulz?



so then kirin moves at the speed of light
like I said..right

so again how fast does 8th gate gai move? 

u do realize if gai is moving faster than that then juudara wont be able to see him at all or would just be seeing mirror images of gai

unless u think objects moving faster at the speed of light can be seen by the eye which requires light reflecting on it to see any object at all

I await your brilliant response 

I could also show u the scan where sasuke directly compares kirin to amaterasu and calls it unavoidable. despite how avoidable it is

I could also inform you that for MS sasuke to see a mirror image of A, A must have been moving faster than the speed of light

so someone who can do that still admits to being slower than minato?


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so then kirin moves at the speed of light
> like I said..right
> 
> so again how fast does 8th gate gai move?
> ...



Reaching the ground from the sky in 1/1000 of a second = the speed of light? Or slower? It is way faster than a speed of sound. But light? I am too lazy to count.

Anyway, Itachi reacted to it thanks to MS. Due to its precognition ability. And due to Susanoo's activation speed. He knew what's coming at him. 

Sasuke never stated Amaterasu is as fast as Kirin. He just said that Kirin, just as Amaterasu, is unavoidable, as i remember. That's it. The fact they are both "unavoidable" doesnt mean they are equal in speed.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Reaching the ground from the sky in 1/1000 of a second = the speed of light? Or slower? It is way faster than a speed of sound. But light? I am too lazy to count.
> 
> Anyway, Itachi reacted to it thanks to MS. Due to its precognition ability. And due to Susanoo's activation speed. He knew what's coming at him.
> 
> Sasuke never stated Amaterasu is as fast as Kirin. He just said that Kirin, just as Amaterasu, is unavoidable, as i remember. That's it. The fact they are both "unavoidable" doesnt mean they are equal in speed.



my point is u say itachi has the reactions to counter 7th gate gai by activating susanoo based on kirin which was classified unavoidable by sasuke

when he said amaterasu was equally unavoidable despite A side stepping it with no issues

what makes kirin faster than amaterasu? by the author own description amaterasu is the faster technique.  

A who is slower than minato

yet somehow itachi got reactions to see gai and use susanoo but minato cant drop a kunai. which requires no chakra or anything

really dude...don't get the bias. at all 

not when we have seen itachi get hit by faar slower attacks. anyone and their mother would tell u kamui speed>>amaterasu speed. 

wanna know who can use hirashin twice against something that took double the speed of kamui to allow obito to escape?

point is simple, if itachi got the reactions to use susanoo, minato got the reactions to drop a bloody kunai which is all he needs to get behind gai

who isn't a sensor and would have no idea where minato went


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 28, 2015)

> my point is u say itachi has the reactions to counter 7th gate gai by activating susanoo based on kirin which was classified unavoidable by sasuke
> 
> when he said amaterasu was equally unavoidable despite A side stepping it with no issues
> 
> what makes kirin faster than amaterasu? by the author own description amaterasu is the faster technique.



Sasuke said that Kirin was like Amaterasu - unavoidable. It is like Amaterasu because it has the same trait - it is so fast that it is impossible to avoid. At least Sasuke thought so, until he met Raikage. 

But Kishimoto later confirmed that Kirin is on a completely different level than what shinobi normally can produce with their own chakra.

And the fact Kirin is also unavoidable doesnt prove it is as fast as Amaterasu.



> A who is slower than minato
> 
> yet somehow itachi got reactions to see gai and use susanoo but minato cant drop a kunai. which requires no chakra or anything
> 
> ...



Minato doesnt have reaction speed, or MS to do so. He gets speedblitzed. 

Can you prove Kamui speed >> Kirin speed?



> wanna know who can use hirashin twice against something that took double the speed of kamui to allow obito to escape?
> 
> point is simple, if itachi got the reactions to use susanoo, minato got the reactions to drop a bloody kunai which is all he needs to get behind gai



Lower-Gate Gai perfectly reacted to Gudoudama with his pure physical speed and saved Kakashi. Rock Lee also reacted to Gudoudamas. Hell, Edo Tobirama's clone reacted to an exploding one and EMS Sasuke reacted to Juubito's Gudoudama with his Susanoo.

Minato doesnt stand a chance. SM-amped Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubidara and lost his arm. KCM-amped Minato couldnt teleport away from Juubito and lost his arm. Minato wont be able to teleport away before being one-shotted by Hirudora, or a base 7 Gate punch, which can make Kisame bleed, to the jaw. 



> who isn't a sensor and would have no idea where minato went



Minato simply wont be able to do anything in a fight with 7 Gate Gai. He couldnt do anything against Juubito and Juubidara, while being *amped*. Drastically. He couldnt teleport away from there before getting his arms chopped off. 

7 Gate Gai slaughters Minato.

As for this thread - Gai can win if he can use multiple Hirudora's against Gokage, which he couldnt do during The War Arc.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 29, 2015)

he confirmed the scale of the jutsu is above what people can do with their chakra. scale not speed

again...the author description of both jutsu puts amaterasu as faster

are you kishi btw?


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he confirmed the scale of the jutsu is above what people can do with their chakra. scale not speed
> 
> again...the author description of both jutsu puts amaterasu as faster
> 
> are you kishi btw?



Scale? LOL, Jiraya can perform some jutsu's on that scale. Hense, he can summon a toad that is as big as tailed beasts.

And there wa sno such word as scale.

Description put Amaterasu as faster? Scan please.


----------



## Icegaze (Jul 29, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Scale? LOL, Jiraya can perform some jutsu's on that scale. Hense, he can summon a toad that is as big as tailed beasts.
> 
> And there wa sno such word as scale.
> 
> Description put Amaterasu as faster? Scan please.



look at the scan you provided  

zetsu speaks of the scale of the attack itself

instantaneous is a word used to describe amaterasu...feel free to read the DB. now read kirin description and tell me where you see that word


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 29, 2015)

> look at the scan you provided
> 
> zetsu speaks of the scale of the attack itself



He said it's gonna be on a completely different level. Level of scale? Level of speed? How do you know, realy? Have you talked with Kishimoto himself?



> instantaneous is a word used to describe amaterasu...feel free to read the DB. now read kirin description and tell me where you see that word



Yet Ei dodged it. Kamui was also described by DB as instantaneous, although the manga contradicts that more than once. 

And i dont remember Amaterasu being said to reach an opponent in a 1/1000 of a second.


----------



## Matty (Mar 12, 2016)

How would any of them touch him? 5th gate Lee was blowing by gaaras sand. 7th gate gai would wreck gaaara and one hit mei and onoki. Most likely punches Tsunade's head off and then its just him vs A


----------



## Veracity (Mar 12, 2016)

This is why I think the Masters are overrated. Gai is beating 5 mid tiered Kage now? Like what? Ay and Tsuande both have good chances to best him in their own.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Mar 12, 2016)

Guy just barely beats V2 A and that is only if he gets a direct hit with afternoon tiger Against the guy who dodged amaterasu. what is this wank


----------



## Itachі (Mar 12, 2016)

7th Gate gai can solo 8th Gate Gai.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Mar 12, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> This is why I think the Masters are overrated. Gai is beating 5 mid tiered Kage now? Like what? Ay and Tsuande both have good chances to best him in their own.



i dont know what happened but the "masters" are getting wanked a lot more and harder than usual


----------



## Clowe (Mar 12, 2016)

why bring this shit thread back?


----------



## Itachі (Mar 12, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> "masters"



what's that supposed to mean


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

Clowe said:


> why bring this shit thread back?




Matty probably drunk dialed the thread.


----------



## Itachі (Mar 12, 2016)

I don't think Matty's even drunk.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

We've already established that 6th Gated Gai solos any version of barring Backpack Oonoki. The rest fall like dominos.


----------



## Matty (Mar 12, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Matty probably drunk dialed the thread.





Itachі said:


> I don't think Matty's even drunk.



St Patty's day weekend  

Still. Sasuke wins. They're equal but he's a better matchup

Edit: Wow that's bad. Sorry, Gai solos


----------



## Amol (Mar 12, 2016)

Anyone who thinks that Gai actually stands any chance here needs to be banished from this galaxy and into the negative zone.


----------



## Saru (Mar 12, 2016)

Gai can beat all of them one-on-one, but Tsunade and A would give him a serious run for his money. Tsunade + any of the Gokage at the same time is simply too much.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 12, 2016)

If he could use the Gates with no drawbacks or limit, Gai could feasibly solo the five Kage. But under normal circumstances, he exhausts and loses to Katsuyu camping and the Raikage's Raiton armor.


----------



## Mithos (Mar 13, 2016)

Matty said:


> How would any of them touch him? 5th gate Lee was blowing by gaaras sand. 7th gate gai would wreck gaaara and one hit mei and onoki. Most likely punches Tsunade's head off and then its just him vs A



The wank in this thread is unreal. 

7th Gate Gai can't get past Gaara's sand defenses without MP or AT, both of which are extremely taxing. 

He can't effectively reach Onoki in the air. Jinton blasts right through MP or AT and kills Gai, should he attempt to use them. 

Mei keeps him at bay with giant suitons, prevents him from approaching at all with acid mist, and can obscure his LoS with mist -- he can't overwhelm her in CQC if he can't even find her. 

Punch Tsunade's head off? We've seen Gai punch and kick people while using the 6th and 7th Gates. Did 30% Kisame's neck snap and his head fly off why he got kicked in the face? Did Gai punch a hole straight through the real Kisame? No, all he caused was him to cough up a little blood. Even MP and AT didn't rip anybody apart or blow someone's limbs off. Tsunade tanks everything he's got and outlasts, especially with Katsuyu.

A is faster with his Shunshin, and is big stronger and more durable. 

Honestly, I don't favor Gai against any of the Gokage one on one, except Gaara. Mei could go either way, but I lean towards her because her skill set is a nightmare for CQC fighters. 

If he attempts to fight all of them, Mei or Gaara block his approach with sand or water walls, and while he's pushed back A+Onoki flank him. He gets knocked into the air and covered in lava. 

Katsuyu can absorb the Gokage if they're hurt and Tsunade can heal them. 

Gai has absolutely no chance. None.


----------



## fyhb (Mar 13, 2016)

Gai stands no chance at all against Gokage,but has small   Chance against Gaara ,depending on Location.


----------



## Itachі (Mar 13, 2016)

7th Gate Gai >> Tsunade

7th Gate Gai >> Gaara

7th Gate Gai >> Ei

7th Gate Gai >> Mei

7th Gate Gai >> Onoki

Gokage >>> 7th Gate Gai


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 13, 2016)

One on one Gai loses most of the time by Ei, only. As he's a bad matchup.

I favor 7th Gated Gai over any other of the Gokage. Onoki especially falls down by Hirudora like a plane being hit by missil. Onoki's never matching Gai's handspeed in order to shoot Jinton at the same time that Gai uses Hirudora.

Freaking Madara couldn't finish a mid-swing before Gai blasted him off the chapter with Hirudora. Onoki stands no chance.

Mei either. Camping in mist is only desperately calling for Hirudora. She dies inside her own mist.

Gaara shat his pants watching Gai fighting and Tsunade's Byakugo can be outrun with Gai's superior striking speed that'd outspeed Byakugo's regenerative abilities. But Tsunade can camp in Katsuyu all day, and hope for Gai to get tired and leave.


----------



## Itachі (Mar 13, 2016)

I think Gai should be able to defeat Ei by nabbing him with a Hirudora and just pummelling him while he's incapacitated.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Wow the Gai hate here is strong.

You guys really think he'd lose to Gaara? In the 7th gate?


----------



## Itachі (Mar 13, 2016)

Wasn't Gaara having trouble tagging Joki Boy with his sand? For all we know Joki Boy might be a speedster though..


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 13, 2016)

Guy cannot take on the Five Kage with just the 7th Gate. Not remotely.

If such hype was warranted for Guy in that form, it would've been granted just like it was for the 8th Gate.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

7th gate just entered the list of most overrated shit in BD.


----------



## fyhb (Mar 13, 2016)

Agree mate.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

Current top 5 : 

1 - Sage mode
2 - 7th Gate
3 - Kakashi's Kamui
small gap
4 - FRS
5 - Hiraishin


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Current top 5 :
> 
> 1 - Sage mode
> 2 - 7th Gate
> ...



Fixed that one for yah bud


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

Totsuka has outstanding feats and hype as well as a perfect track record. Not sure how it is overrated.


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## Tarot (Mar 13, 2016)

Muh speed, muh blitz, muh hirudora, muh wank.
People really need to get Guy's green spandex shaft out of their mouths.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Current top 5 :
> 
> 1 - Sage mode
> 2 - 7th Gate
> ...



How are Sage Mode, Rasenshuriken, or Hiraishin overrated?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> How are Sage Mode, Rasenshuriken, or Hiraishin overrated?



Just read your own posts mate.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Just read your own posts mate.



I mean, I call it as I see it, really. ?\_(ツ)_/?


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Current top 5 :
> 
> 1 - Sage mode
> 2 - 7th Gate
> ...



This list is wrong in too many levels. 

Its like this:


Perfect Susano'o
Budhah
EMS Madara
Itachi
7th Gated Gai
If Kyuubi can, Susano'o can.


----------



## Saru (Mar 13, 2016)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> 7th Gate Gai can't get past Gaara's sand defenses without MP or AT, both of which are extremely taxing.




Gaara's sand hasn't even proven to be fast enough to react to Gai. Gai would one-punch Gaara with the Seventh Gate opened with absolutely no reaction from Gaara, and Hirudora would certainly bust Gaara's defenses if not slip through them due to Gai's speed.



> He can't effectively reach Onoki in the air. Jinton blasts right through MP or AT and kills Gai, should he attempt to use them.




Gai can't fly, but he can jump good. Good enough to reach Ohnoki. He can also fire Hirudora faster than Ohnoki can use Jinton, so countering Hirudora with Jinton when Gai is in Ohnoki's face is an impossibility.



> Mei keeps him at bay with giant suitons, prevents him from approaching at all with acid mist, and can obscure his LoS with mist -- he can't overwhelm her in CQC if he can't even find her.




Gai can likely dodge Mei's Suiton without opening any Gates. Hirudora's AoE would dwarf Mei and any Hidden Mist or Futton that she produced, and it would also blow the Mist away the same way that Gai blew away and boxed in Kisame's sharks with the Gates opened.

I don't necessarily disagree in regards to Gai versus Tsunade and A, but Gai has a definite shot against and can outright defeat a majority of the Gokage IMO. He gets spanked here, obviously, like practically any non-Madara-tier character would.​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> This list is wrong in too many levels.
> 
> Its like this:
> 
> ...



Any list that doesn't have FRS, Kakashi's Kamui or SM can be discarded without objection, so yeah.

You need at least one of them in your list to legitimize it.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Totsuka has outstanding feats and hype as well as a perfect track record. Not sure how it is overrated.



People think that Obito (intangible) gets tagged with it, that's how


----------



## RBL (Mar 13, 2016)

Tsunade should be in the most overrated shit in BD


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> People think that Obito (intangible) gets tagged with it, that's how



I actually have never seen anyone claim that.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Well, yeah, Tsunade fans think she's nigh immortal with her jutsu, short of Kaguya coming down and sucking the chakra out of her, she's practically invulnerable.

@GJ: Seph used to make that claim alot back in 2012.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> I think Gai can defeat any of them in a 1 on 1. But the 5 of them is tooooooooo much.



Speedblitz Gaara, Mei, Onoki and takes out both Tsunade and Ei with several Hirudoras.

Yes, he can solo Gokage.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2016)

Death Arcana said:


> Muh speed, muh blitz, muh hirudora, muh wank.
> People really need to get Guy's green spandex shaft out of their mouths.



7th Gate Gai being on a higher tier than 5 Kage combined is not a wank - it's a fact. Deal with it.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Any list that doesn't have FRS, Kakashi's Kamui or SM can be discarded without objection, so yeah.
> 
> You need at least one of them in your list to legitimize it.



Some people think skeletal Susanō or _the Fourth Raikage_ can take a Rasenshuriken without getting pulverized, so no, it doesn't belong on that list.

Certain moronic people also think Danzo's Fūton technique is stronger than Rasenshuriken, so no, it's not overrated.

How is Sage Mode overrated? General consensus is that Sage Mode Naruto = Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke, which is what Kishimoto told us.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 13, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Some people think skeletal Susanō or _the Fourth Raikage_ can take a Rasenshuriken without getting pulverized, so no, it doesn't belong on that list.



There is no evidence eitherway, so I can't blame those people for that. 
For me personally, I think FRS can destroy the mini ribcage, and will hurt A but I don't think it can kill him.

But there are some people who think it is stronger than Kirin, can destroy V3 Susano'O and travel as fast as Sasuke's arrows. 
What ?



> Certain moronic people also think Danzo's Fūton technique is stronger than Rasenshuriken, so no, it's not overrated.



Danzo's fuuton is like a wind blade, the whole attack is concentrated in a slash, it is much more compact than FRS, so it is highly likely that pound per pound it is stronger.
It has a feat of ripping through the back of V3 Susano'o. 
There are some unknown variables like the effect of Baku's suction and durability of SusanoO's back, but then FRS didn't rip through anything close to V3 Susano'o in the first place.

So I'd take that "moronic" remark back if I were you, because with the evidence @ hand, you are more likely to fall in to that category otherwise.



> How is Sage Mode overrated? General consensus is that Sage Mode Naruto = Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke, which is what Kishimoto told us.



That doesn't translate into MS = SM though. 

Naruto and Sasuke's dynamic is exclusive to them.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 13, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no evidence eitherway, so I can't blame those people for that.



There is quite a lot. You're just purposely ignoring it for whatever reason.



> For me personally, I think FRS can destroy the mini ribcage, and will hurt A but I don't think it can kill him.



Ay was hurt by Chidori, which is = Rasengan in damage.

He gets _fucked up_ by Rasenshuriken.



> But there are some people who think it is stronger than Kirin, can destroy V3 Susano'O and travel as fast as Sasuke's arrows.
> What ?



I don't quite think it travels as fast as Susanō's arrows, but the first two are true, yes.



> but then FRS didn't rip through anything close to V3 Susano'o in the first place.



It doesn't need to.

Incapacitating the Kyūbi is enough to say that Rasenshuriken is *comfortably* stronger.



> So I'd take that "moronic" remark back if I were you, because with the evidence @ hand, you are more likely to fall in to that category otherwise.



Oh, I have plenty of evidence at hand that more than suggests you're wrong on all counts.



Me said:


> I have a question for you guys.
> 
> How do you think Gyūki's punch would stack up against Sasuke's ribcage Susanō? I mean, what do you think would happen if Gyūki straight-up decked Sasuke's ribcage Susanō with a full swing.
> 
> ...





> That doesn't translate into MS = SM though.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke's dynamic is exclusive to them.



It does, though.

Naruto saying both of them would die couldn't have painted a clearer picture.


----------



## Matty (Mar 13, 2016)

Brandon Lee said:


> Tsunade should be in the most overrated shit in BD



Absolutely. Might as well throw in Amaterasu while we are at it


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 13, 2016)

Yeah, Tsunade and her 'reflexes' are up there.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> 7th Gate Gai being on a higher tier than 5 Kage combined is not a wank - it's a fact. Deal with it.




Keep at it StarWanderer, let 'em know.


----------



## Tarot (Mar 13, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> 7th Gate Gai being on a higher tier than 5 Kage combined is not a wank - it's a fact. Deal with it.


Bell Exam Sasuke being on par with Kakashi is not wank, it's a fact. 

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Matty (Mar 13, 2016)

Death Arcana said:


> Bell Exam Sasuke being on par with Kakashi is not wank, it's a fact.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Completely different!


----------



## Veracity (Mar 13, 2016)

That's legit the most accurate example he could have possibly used. Madara was toying with Gai, evident by the fact that he still could react to 8th Gate gai who is leagues above 7th gated Gai.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 13, 2016)

This thread was shitty back then and it's still shitty now.

Gaara's larger defenses, katsuyu, jinton, not to mention A and onoki backpack combo. They mop the battlefield with gai. Anyone thinking 7th gate guy can invoke anything near the same impact as PS did should seriously go hang themselves.


----------



## Matty (Mar 13, 2016)

Yea so Gai blitz each one. If gai starts in gates and they say "match start" automatically one of the gokage is down. He just literally punches Tsunades head off. 

Then its 4v1 with people who can't stand up to 7th gated gai.

Proper assumption is he is able to keep gates up until battle end. He just fucks them all up real nice like, and then they lose


----------



## Tarot (Mar 13, 2016)

Matty said:


> Yea so Gai blitz each one. If gai starts in gates and they say "match start" automatically one of the gokage is down. He just literally punches Tsunades head off.
> 
> Then its 4v1 with people who can't stand up to 7th gated gai.
> 
> Proper assumption is he is able to keep gates up until battle end. He just fucks them all up real nice like, and then they lose


Stop rustling my testes Matthew, you're better than this.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2016)

Death Arcana said:


> Bell Exam Sasuke being on par with Kakashi is not wank, it's a fact.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



*Bell Exam.* Kakashi wasnt fighting at all there, because it was just an exam. It is a completely different situation.

As for Juubidara vs 7th Gate Gai, it was during a war. Juubidara was clearly shocked by his speed, judging from his face expressions.

Poor attempt to downplay Gai's feat. Realy - how many times will you bring that Bell Exam thing, which doesnt disprove anything?


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> That's legit the most accurate example he could have possibly used. Madara was toying with Gai, evident by the fact that he still could react to 8th Gate gai who is leagues above 7th gated Gai.



Barely, and only to the first step. So no - Juubidara wasnt toying around. You dont make those face expressions when you are toying around.



> Madara saw Gai throw his fastest punch and then proceeded to interrupt it by bonking him on the head and into the dirt.
> 
> He was never backed into a corner.



He never interrupted the fastest punch of his, which is not an air in a form of Tiger head - it's that sign which he made without any trouble. That sign - the fastest punch of 7th Gate Gai - compresses the air in a single point, after which the air defuses and the Tiger head appears. It seems lots of people dont even understand how Hirudora works and dont remember Hirudora's explanation.



So, the Tiger Head is not the punch itself - it's a result of the fastest punch. It's after-effect.

People are trying to downplay Gai's feat giving stupid examples, which do not disprove anything, saying that "he reacted to 8th Gate", although he could react properly only to Evening Elephant's first, slowest step, and saying that Juubidara "countered his fastest punch" without even knowing how Hirudora works. Jeez. 

Anyway, i solo'ed this thread.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 14, 2016)

@StarWanderer 

If you are seriously judging all those feats by Madara's facial expression then I won't continue to bother with this debate as that is absolutely ludicrous.

And reacting to anything from Red Aura gate means that 7th Gated Gai would be a snail to serious Madara. There is a large gap between the 2.


----------



## Mithos (Mar 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gaara's sand hasn't even proven to be fast enough to react to Gai. Gai would one-punch Gaara with the Seventh Gate opened with absolutely no reaction from Gaara, and Hirudora would certainly bust Gaara's defenses if not slip through them due to Gai's speed.
> 
> Gai can't fly, but he can jump good. Good enough to reach Ohnoki. He can also fire Hirudora faster than Ohnoki can use Jinton, so countering Hirudora with Jinton when Gai is in Ohnoki's face is an impossibility.
> 
> ...



Gaara doesn't have to stand back and react to Gai. He can shield himself with preemptive walls and barriers of sand. I said that Gai would need Hirudora to get through Gaara's defenses, and that I could see him beating Gaara. But it would be taxing on Gai. 

Sure Gai can jump at Onoki, but then he loses his speed advantage; while in the air, he's slow, as we saw when he jumped at 30% Kisame and Kisame was able to easily react and attack him before his strike. The problem for Gai is that Onoki can fly, which means he can maneuver in the air. Nothing is stopping him for retreating backwards or flying around and behind Gai. If 30% Kisame can react to Gai in the air casually, Onoki can too. Except Gai cannot parry Jinton. 

Mei's water jutsu are too big for base Gai to reliably dodge, especially when he's trying to approach, which he needs to do. Activating the Gates can momentarily disperse the mist around Gai, but then Mei just adds more. I don't think Gai is going to fire AT if he can't see her. It only explodes on contact, so if his aim is off it travels too far and explosion doesn't really do much to her. Throwing out AT is not a casual thing. He used MP and AT consecutively and then he was spent. He's got 2 shots, maybe 3. And then he's a sitting duck. If he wastes one, he's probably going to lose. Not to mention, I don't believe Gai can solo a Kage with it low difficulty. Yamato knew about it, and Gai was not portrayed as someone that could pick off Kages like that. Mei has giant AOE and can use multiple elements, including earth. Why can't she mitigate the damage with a giant earth wall? Or dodge it by burrowing underground? 

Yeah, he has a shot against them. I said I didn't "favor" him against most of them. The problem I have is that Gates are very predictable and one-dimensional, which would be okay if they weren't a race against time. Stalling tactics like mist, sand, earth walls or hiding underground, etc. are bad for Gai, because if he can't defeat them quickly he loses. Tsunade's regeneration and Katsuyu are terrible for Gai's style, and A's strengths counter Gai's too. 

But at least we're in agreement that he had no chance 5 on 1. In my opinion, Gai would get stomped by just A and Mei. Their opening offense against Madara would trash him: Mei opens with Yoton or a water jutsu, forcing Gai into the air, and while A engages him from the side, Mei covers him in lava. He has no defensive technique to protect himself. Or Mei activates mist and lightened A/Onoki come up behind him and give him a weighted punch, taking him out. Really, any of the Kages team attacks would beat him.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @StarWanderer
> 
> If you are seriously judging all those feats by Madara's facial expression then I won't continue to bother with this debate as that is absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> And reacting to anything from Red Aura gate means that 7th Gated Gai would be a snail to serious Madara. There is a large gap between the 2.



Reacting to anything from Red Aura Gate means that 7th Gate Gai would be a snail to serious Madara? Dude, the thing is - Juubidara reacted to 7th Gate Gai too. But nevertheless, he couldnt beat him in taijutsu. He could block his attacks - something he barely did against EE's first step. But he couldnt counter-attack, couldnt speedblitz Gai. And i dont think that EE's first step is miles beyond 7th Gate Gai's speed. Also, Juubidara was clearly shocked. His face expressions are proofs of that. Madara doesnt make those face expressions when he toys around.

Furthermore, there was no reason for him to play around. He didnt play around with SM Naruto, with SM Minato, with Tobirama, with tailed beasts after he got his Rinnegan, yet he will play aorund with Gai for some reason?

Toying around with Gai is your fanfic, nothing more.



> Gaara doesn't have to stand back and react to Gai. He can shield himself with preemptive walls and barriers of sand. I said that Gai would need Hirudora to get through Gaara's defenses, and that I could see him beating Gaara. But it would be taxing on Gai.



7th Gate Gai shocked Juubidara with his speed within 30 meters distance. He was so fats Juubidara couldnt cut him down when he came closer. Here, you have 20's meters distance. Gaara's sand wont move an inch while 7th Gate Gai closes a distance and absolutely kills Gaara before he can blink. The same will be with the rest of the Gokage, except Ei and Tsunade. Although they cant react to 7th Gate Gai, they are difficult to kill, so he will use 2 Hirudoras in order to kill them. Non-tired Gai, in his prime, can use 2 consecutive Hirudoras. One will tear Tsunade to peases, other will either knock Ei out, or kill him. Why? Because that attack seriously damaged Madara's V3 Susanoo to the point that he lost control over his mokuton.

Gokage dont stand a chance.

StarWanderer solo's.


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## Saru (Mar 14, 2016)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Gaara doesn't have to stand back and react to Gai. He can shield himself with preemptive walls and barriers of sand. I said that Gai would need Hirudora to get through Gaara's defenses, and that I could see him beating Gaara. But it would be taxing on Gai.




Sixth Gate (6G) Gai can travel far faster than Gaara's sand can travel, so it it's likely that even with the 6G Gai's speed would be too much for Gaara to react to. Preemptive walls of sand sound like a good counter to that. However, I disagree that Gai would necessarily need Hirudora to get through Gaara's defenses. Asakujaku should do a fine job of plowing through Gaara's Gourd Sand and striking Gaara, but perhaps Hirudora would be a safer option since Gaara can attack with Desert Sand and defend with Gourd Sand at the same time. I agree that defeating Gaara would probably be taxing on Gai, though.




> Sure Gai can jump at Onoki, but then he loses his speed advantage; while in the air, he's slow, as we saw when he jumped at 30% Kisame and Kisame was able to easily react and attack him before his strike. The problem for Gai is that Onoki can fly, which means he can maneuver in the air. Nothing is stopping him for retreating backwards or flying around and behind Gai. If 30% Kisame can react to Gai in the air casually, Onoki can too. Except Gai cannot parry Jinton.




Gai made a pose before using Asakujaku [1] [2], and when he used Asakujaku later, he did not need to make such a pose [1] [2]. While it's true that Gai is helpless to the physics of being in midair, he should still be able to travel faster on his feet than Ohnoki can fly around, and he can also jump incredible distances. The only reason that Gai hung in midair against Kisame is because he jumped straight up. That would not happen if Gai were to _lunge_ at Ohnoki.



> Mei's water jutsu are too big for base Gai to reliably dodge, especially when he's trying to approach, which he needs to do. Activating the Gates can momentarily disperse the mist around Gai, but then Mei just adds more. I don't think Gai is going to fire AT if he can't see her. It only explodes on contact, so if his aim is off it travels too far and explosion doesn't really do much to her. Throwing out AT is not a casual thing. He used MP and AT consecutively and then he was spent. He's got 2 shots, maybe 3. And then he's a sitting duck. If he wastes one, he's probably going to lose. Not to mention, I don't believe Gai can solo a Kage with it low difficulty. Yamato knew about it, and Gai was not portrayed as someone that could pick off Kages like that. Mei has giant AOE and can use multiple elements, including earth. Why can't she mitigate the damage with a giant earth wall? Or dodge it by burrowing underground?




The radius of Hirudora's explosion is massive, and there's nothing to suggest that the attack is significantly weakened as the distance from the explosion radius increases. If Gai blows away Mei's Mist by opening the Seventh Gate, Mei won't be able to respond in time to create more mist, get far away from Gai, and hide all before he can close in and launch Hirudora at her.




> Yeah, he has a shot against them. I said I didn't "favor" him against most of them. The problem I have is that Gates are very predictable and one-dimensional, which would be okay if they weren't a race against time. Stalling tactics like mist, sand, earth walls or hiding underground, etc. are bad for Gai, because if he can't defeat them quickly he loses. Tsunade's regeneration and Katsuyu are terrible for Gai's style, and A's strengths counter Gai's too.
> 
> But at least we're in agreement that he had no chance 5 on 1. In my opinion, Gai would get stomped by just A and Mei. Their opening offense against Madara would trash him: Mei opens with Yoton or a water jutsu, forcing Gai into the air, and while A engages him from the side, Mei covers him in lava. He has no defensive technique to protect himself. Or Mei activates mist and lightened A/Onoki come up behind him and give him a weighted punch, taking him out. Really, any of the Kages team attacks would beat him.




Yeah, I think that Gai taking on any combination of A + another Kage or Tsunade + another Kage is ridiculous.​


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## Kai (Mar 14, 2016)

So the fun has run its course. Most people still discussing this thread agree to the fact 7th Gate Gai gets stomped if he tries to take on all five Kage head on. That means all other discussions have made the original purpose of this thread in a moot state. 

Whoever necro'd this thread, shame on you


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