# Zoro vs Luffy.



## Extravlad (Apr 9, 2015)

Latest chapter spoilers


*Spoiler*: __ 



Gear 4 is restricted.




Bloodlusted, manga knowledge

Who wins?


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## Typhon (Apr 9, 2015)

Luffy still wins high diff.

Speed advantage, common sense, and all that other jazz.


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## LyricalMessiah (Apr 9, 2015)

Gear 4 is restricted, huh? Does that mean that Asura is restricted as well? 

And Luffy still wins.


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## Extravlad (Apr 9, 2015)

> Gear 4 is restricted, huh? Does that mean that Asura is restricted as well?


No Asura isn't restricted.
Just to see how many people think Luffy could beat Zoro w/o using G4.
Cause I think that's bullshit, Zoro has had way better feats and now that we know Luffy has another Gear to use, it's safe to assume that it's how he close the gap with Zoro


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## King plasma (Apr 9, 2015)

I think they tie. Gear 2 and 3 no longer give the massive boost that they did pre-skip, and they can even be considered his base now. I guess the reason Luffy was seeming lack lustre post-skip is because he was hiding a massive trump card. 

If Luffy can high diff Zoro without going all out, that would mean in G4 Luffy would low diff him. Which realistically isn't going to happen.

Zoro also appears to have other trump cards up his sleeve. Count on it.

Based on hype G4 Luffy should more or less high diff Zoro.


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## LyricalMessiah (Apr 9, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> No Asura isn't restricted.
> Just to see how many people think Luffy could beat Zoro w/o using G4.
> Cause I think that's bullshit, Zoro has had way better feats and now that we know Luffy has another Gear to use, it's safe to assume that it's how he close the gap with Zoro



Well, Luffy being shown to have the ability to evolve his gears a notch further doesn't mean that he'd have to rely on it heavily in order to defeat Zoro because his feats are already great as evidenced by his fight against Doflamingo who's an opponent that Zoro cannot possibly beat. Luffy being shown to have gear 4 does not close the gap between him and Zoro, it further escalates it in favour of Luffy. Luffy beats current Zoro with High extreme difficulty without Gear 4. With Gear 4, a technique that we've yet to be shown its full capabilities to meticulously judge how Luffy would fair against Zoro, we can only give it the benefit of the doubt due to its portrayal of being Luffy's last resort attack against Doflamingo (A very stong opponent) and thus he should beat Zoro with High difficulty at best. My view of the difficulty with which Luffy would need to beat Zoro with Gear 4 may change once we see Zoro's full capabilities (Asura et cetera).


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## Canute87 (Apr 9, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Latest chapter spoilers
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I wonder if you realize flamingo can kick zoro's ass?


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## martryn (Apr 9, 2015)

I still say that they're equal, but Zoro would win in a fight because he's better suited to fighting Luffy.  Luffy might be faster, but not by enough to make too much of a difference.  Luffy's attacks have range, but they all rely on putting some extremity within reach of Zoro's swords.  And, as Zoro said, there's nothing his swords can't cut.  Luffy would lose arms and legs pretty quick fighting Zoro.  His only real advantage is his speed advantage using a gear.  I'd give it to Luffy if he can boost his speed fast enough so Zoro can't even attack him back.  I don't think that's the case, so I don't think Luffy would win in a one on one fight.

By that same notion, though, I do think that Luffy can defeat many enemies Zoro can't due to the vast arsenal of abilities he can bring to the table with his devil fruit.  I've been in the "They're Equal" camp for going on six years now, and nothing I've seen has changed my mind.


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## LyricalMessiah (Apr 9, 2015)

Canute87 said:


> I wonder if you realize flamingo can kick zoro's ass?



B-b-but canute, swords > strings and zoro's haki > dofla's. :amazed


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## Dr. White (Apr 9, 2015)

Luffy takes this. He has the speed advantage here and the arsenal to put Zoro down. Moves like Luffy's Jet and Hawk Gatling are gonna put Zoro on the ropes as he either has to counterattack or try and dodge, and he's not Mingo, if Luffy gets positioning on Zoro like he did Dofla he could very well end this.  That being said zoro is going to be able to keep Luffy at bay with his cannons, and can really threaten Luffy at short with attacks like Shi Shi Son Son, and Sanzen Sekai. Luffy has comparable firepower with his Red Hawk moves, Hawk Gatling, and EGG Gatling. When it comes to Haki so far Zoro has a slight edge but hasn't really been tested enough for a solid analysis of his quality. Luffy has shown he is weak to piercing Haki, and can slighlty resist Doflamingo's slashing attacks (he bleeds but doesn't get diced nearly as much as he should). This tells me Luffy should be able to survive any move from Zoro that isn't a high end move with his COA. Luffy should also have better COO given he has more numerous feats.

All in all I'd give it to Luffy with Extreme diff. They have a lucci vs Luffy like fight and Luffy wins, but I wouldn't say 10/10.


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## Freechoice (Apr 9, 2015)

Luffy high diff

Because reasons


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## Extravlad (Apr 9, 2015)

> and the arsenal to put Zoro down.


No he doesn't.
Luffy couldn't even put the likes of Hody,Chinjao and Caesar down without using Gear 3.
And if he do use G3 Zoro can either dodge it since it's slow as fuck, or just answer with his own moves.

I find it disturbing that so many people think Luffy can still beat Zoro w/o using his newgear, that'd be like saying EL Luffy would beat Zoro w/o gear 2 which is bullshit when you consider how Blueno gave a hard fight to base Luffy while Zoro demolished Kaku.

Here it's pretty much the same, Luffy needs gear 4 to be on par/stronger than Zoro IMO


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## Magentabeard (Apr 9, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Luffy clearly needs Gear 4th to get on Zoro's level after Zoro's mountain cutting feats. Luffy just doesn't hold up otherwise. Even his Elephant Gatling is weaker as Zoro could do the same thing faster and without suffering a speed penalty like Luffy does in G3. Same thing for EGG vs Law's mountain cut. The DC is comparable but Luffy suffers penalties the others don't. Maybe Gear 4th won't remedy that but it'll give Luffy more of an edge in other areas.



This is a nice post from the telegrams
People here saying that Luffy high diffs Zoro without gear 4 are not thinking, that would imply that  unrestricted Luffy can at most mid diff Zoro.

Zoro >= Luffy without gear 4 CLEARLY. This doesn't go against any evidence. And Gear 4 puts Luffy a half step above Zoro (prediction).


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## Etherborn (Apr 9, 2015)

G4 hasn't even been shown yet. What's the point of restricting it if we don't even know what it does?


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## Dunno (Apr 9, 2015)

Could go either way. Even though Luffy's showing post-TS hasn't been stellar he still logically shouldn't be weaker than his first mate.


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## Magentabeard (Apr 9, 2015)

Dunno said:


> Could go either way. Even though Luffy's showing post-TS hasn't been stellar he still logically shouldn't be weaker than his first mate.



But Luffy isn't weaker than Zoro if its just gear 4 that puts Luffy ahead. So its very possible that G4 Luffy > Zoro > Gear 2/3 Luffy


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## Typhon (Apr 9, 2015)

Magentabeard said:


> This is a nice post from the telegrams
> People here saying that Luffy high diffs Zoro without gear 4 are not thinking, that would imply that  unrestricted Luffy can at most mid diff Zoro.
> 
> Zoro >= Luffy without gear 4 CLEARLY. This doesn't go against any evidence. And Gear 4 puts Luffy a half step above Zoro (prediction)



What evidence puts Zoro over Luffy without G4? I'm curious.

Inb4, Portrayal


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## Extravlad (Apr 9, 2015)

> What evidence puts Zoro over Luffy without G4? I'm curious.


Feats.
Luffy's feats have been shit so far, he struggled against the likes of Monet,Hyouzou,PH Dragon while Zoro casually fodderized every single one of them.

Zoro pushed back Fujitora, broke through his gravity, made it looks easy against Pika.


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## MYJC (Apr 9, 2015)

Luffy wins due to speed advantage. High-diff. 

Zoro is far from slow but even Doffy himself gave Luffy props on his speed. Basically Luffy is going to have a much easier time hitting Zoro than Zoro will have hitting Luffy.


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## Freechoice (Apr 9, 2015)

I wish Zoro was the MC and Luffy was the first mate


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## kidgogeta (Apr 9, 2015)

Zoro wins because he can use his gear 4 equivalent while Luffy can't. Really simple and only haters would think otherwise.


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## Intus Legere (Apr 9, 2015)

I'll give it to Zoro. The only reason I put them on the same general level before is because of Oda's consistent portrayal of them as equals, not because of feats. Without Gear 4, Luffy's feats lag behind Zoro's and so does his performance. As someone else said (Coruscation I suppose), Zoro can pull attacks that are larger in scale than those of Gear 3 without the penalties of the said mode, and he didn't even use Asura. Luffy now can safely pull ahead of Zoro, but he didn't seem to do so before, at all.





Typhon said:


> What evidence puts Zoro over Luffy without G4? I'm curious.
> 
> Inb4, Portrayal



Look at the damage caused by _Elephant Gatling Gun_ and _Santoryu Ougi: Sanzen Sekai_. Zoro can cause the same kind of damage or more so than Luffy in a shorter time with fewer drawbacks. Compare it for yourself if you don't believe me. There were even calculations involved in the OBD concerning energy output of the attacks giving Zoro the advantage, for whatever those are worth.


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## yantos (Apr 9, 2015)

so by current feats ?
zoro high diffs luffy lol at the people who are saying speed advantage is a problem roronoa`s reaction along with his semi instant city size slashs will  make him owen luffy  from where ever he is standing speed is no problem when the other has the reacrion and high attacking speed..... by that logic kizaru can owen WB


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## batman22wins (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro attack speed isn't slow people and his reaction time is top notch. Why are people keep saying Zoro is slow? He not slow and in no point of the manga was he called slow or portrayed that way. Zoro was dodging Palm cannons and lasers while injured. Regarding the fight Zoro obviously wins. Luffy will need stronger attack to damage the tank that is Zoro, but he way too slow. Zoro doesn't lose any speed while delivering his Aoe attacks.


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## David (Apr 10, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> I'll give it to Zoro. The only reason I put them on the same general level before is because of Oda's consistent portrayal of them as equals, not because of feats. Without Gear 4, Luffy's feats lag behind Zoro's and so does his portrayal. As someone else said (Coruscation I suppose), Zoro can pull attacks that are larger in scale than those of Gear 3 without the penalties of the said mode, and he didn't even use Asura. Luffy now can safely pull ahead of Zoro, but he didn't seem to do so before, at all.
> 
> Look at the damage caused by _Elephant Gatling Gun_ and _Santoryu Ougi: Sanzen Sekai_. Zoro can cause the same kind of damage or more so than Luffy in a shorter time with fewer drawbacks. Compare it for yourself if you don't believe me. *There were even calculations involved in the OBD concerning energy output of the attacks giving Zoro the advantage, for whatever those are worth.*


*

Agree with everything you're saying, but I just have to say




 calculations involved in the OBD... for whatever those are worth.

Click to expand...


Absolutely nothing *


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## Sherlōck (Apr 10, 2015)

Marco , Beckman can have far greater feats than WB or Shanks they will still be below them.Same way Zoro can cut mountain,dick whatever he want he will still be below Luffy. 

Luffy wins extreme difficulty.


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## Amol (Apr 10, 2015)

Sigh...
Luffy wins . Like how many times we had this thread ?
G4 is required for likes of DD not Zoro.
And ffs Luffy is Captain.
He is always gonna be stronger than Zoro.
Those who said Zoro wins are utter morons and we do have morons here.


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## Lawliet (Apr 10, 2015)

> G4 is required for likes of DD not Zoro.




Luffy ain't taking a monster like Zoro down without G4. Pre skip Zoro was capable of standing after taking Luffy's pain along with his. You think current Zoro can't do the same and even 10 times better now?


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## mastergimmy (Apr 10, 2015)

We really have to see what Zoro has to show next arc. The intention of Oda is seriously evident anyway. There are always constant hints to show that they are close in strength.

From my plain opinion, they tie with Gear 4. With Gear 4 luffy will win very high diff.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2015)

Luffy has looked worse than Zoro since the timeskip. Period. Just about everyone has noticed that. Now we know why: it's because he IS worse than Zoro without busting out his new superman mode Gear 4th. Zoro hasn't even busted out Ashura and he _still_ arguably outshines Luffy. He has power on the level of Gear 3rd's highest attacks without any of the drawbacks Luffy suffers in the form. Luffy wins in speed, but the shitty nerfed Gear 2nd is simply too weak to put down Zoro. Luffy will be able to give Zoro a decent beating but he'll never take the crew's #1 toughness freak out with his pissy lovetap G2 moves. High-extreme diff and Zoro finishes it off with Ashura. With Gear 4th, flip it around. That makes Gear 4th a substantial but still sensible boost that doesn't result in Luffy making Zoro and Sanji look like total garbage.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Luffy high(mid) diffs.He was is and will always be stronger than any SH.
Lol at Luffy needing G4 to beat Zoro.
So Zoro is equal to DD now? 
Luffy is much faster than Zoro and him clashing with DD > anything Zoro has done so far.


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## MrWano (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel is from now on my friend.


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## Kaiser (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro have been shown to have better stats than current Luffy without Asura and i always wondered why. Now i understand it's because Luffy had a trump card(gear4) under his sleeves. With that restricted when Asura is available, no way does Luffy win this.


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## Extravlad (Apr 10, 2015)

Glad to know that there's so many people who think Luffy wins this with hig diff, guess G4 Luffy can just mid diff Zoro right?



> Luffy is much faster than Zoro and him clashing with DD > anything Zoro has done so far.


Clashing with Fujitora >>> anything Luffy has done in the entire manga.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

MrWano said:


> Bernkastel is from now on my friend.







Kaiser said:


> Zoro have been shown to have better stats than current Luffy without Asura and i always wondered why. Now i understand it's because Luffy had a trump card(gear4) under his sleeves. With that restricted when Asura is available, no way does Luffy win this.



G4 though is a completely new move while Asura is a move already seen and will propably just be stronger than pre-skip but there's nothing that suggests it's on the same level as a completely new move of Luffy's that's going to take down DD.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Glad to know that there's so many people who think Luffy wins this with hig diff, guess G4 Luffy can just mid diff Zoro right?
> 
> 
> Clashing with Fujitora >>> anything Luffy has done in the entire manga.





He never clashed with Fuji.Not even Sabo managed to make Fujitora serious.
Fuji was calm and casual af while Zoro was sweating and pissing himself at the idea of an admiral being there.
Even Luffy was afraid and wanted to go help Zoro.

Luffy fights DD on equal grounds ..i doubt you can say the same about Zoro vs Fuji,unleess you think Zoro stands even the slightest chance against him.


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## Yuki (Apr 10, 2015)

People talking as if they know Asura is still Zoro's best move. 

Lets wait and see till he goes all out before amusing shit like that. >_> 

Zoro does not go all out till he is at him limit. Then he pulls some demonic shit and gets far stronger.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> People talking as if they know Asura is still Zoro's best move.
> 
> Lets wait and see till he goes all out before amusing shit like that. >_>
> 
> Zoro does not go all out till he is at him limit. Then he pulls some demonic shit and gets far stronger.



Exactly.
People are assuming Asura is the shit and all but i doubt Oda will recycle an old move like that.
Luffy got so many new moves and now a G4 but Zoro will still rely on Asura?no way.
People just use Asura as a tool for Zoro to keep up with Luffy's G4 cause right now they have nothing solid to rely on.


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## Firo (Apr 10, 2015)

Luffy's feats are actually retarded post skip. He claimed to not have strong enough Haki to protect himself from Hody's bite and then went on to defend against Doffy's strings using Armament Hardening. He's pretty much been jobbing for no reason whatsoever.
On Topic, Zoro aint winning.
Funny tho, Luffy just unleashed G4 and we know jack shit about it. But obviously, Luffy needs it to beat Zoro.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro has better Feats.

Zoro has better portrayal.

Luffy is the captain arguement means shit because luffy is rescricted in this fight, and oda has portrayed and even stated in databooks that zoro=luffy.

Luffy(without g4) beating Zoro with High diff Is pure luffy wank and Zoro hating. Stop being blinded by bias and read the fucking manga.

Zoro one shots hodi.
Zoro one shots Hyouzou(who luffy said was strong) and got the same power up as hodi.
Zoro defeated Monet with his aura. The same monet who intercepted luffy 3 times, blocked a hawk gatling, and forced luffy to run away.
Zoro clashed with Fuji twice(got a compliment to his basic air slash strength) and in both clashes Zoro did not look any worse then Law or luffy have looked against DD.
Zoro cut a mountain into pieces with ease, and one shot a full body haki user and one of Doflamingo's top men. That oda has said multiple times In this arc is very strong.

Oda can't  make it more clear. Luffy is not a tier above Zoro like he was in EL, and Luffy with his powers restricted is not beating the man who has trained with Mihawk for 2 years with High difficulty.


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro isn't winning High diff


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Zoro isn't winning High diff



Yea he low diffs. 

Sanji high diffs luffy.


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yea he low diffs.
> 
> Sanji high diffs luffy.



Well his speed and COO are at max Yeti Cool Bro ammunition level. Luffy had some trouble with Cool Bro's but didn't get soloed with help like Zoro did with no diff, so I'd have to say based on that direct unrefutable comparison, that Luffy would beat Zoro Low diff without G4.


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## Firo (Apr 10, 2015)

Also, Databooks are secondary canon for a reason. And If I recall, the translations of what was said was iffy. Even still, Luffy outright admitted Lucci would kill his crew if he lost there. This is the same Luffy whom asked any other time otherwise would say, " Dont worry, Zoro's fine, He can handle himself."


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

Terrible condition post G3 Lucci would wreck Zoro w/ the crew. Dat Luffy hype


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## Firo (Apr 10, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Terrible condition post G3 Lucci would wreck Zoro w/ the crew. Dat Luffy hype



Of course not with the crew. But Zoro alone would be fucked. That also depends on how the other battles went too I admit. Dont even think Luffy had any idea what was going on with his crew members  until late in the fight.
Now that I think about it, I wonder how a Fresh Lucci fares against the crew minus Luffy.


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## Firo (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Doflamingo has beat the crap out of Luffy every time they fought. So no holding your ground against fuji, cutting up mountain ranges>>>>>>>>getting your ass kicked by Doflamingo.


Getting your shit kicked in vs Doffy and still being able to fight and blocking his strings >>>>>>>>>> Pica
And be real here/ Zoro would get the same treatment. Hell, even worse.



> Your assuming it's the same pre-skip. Which is baseless and retarded logic. G2 and G3 are not the same for Luffy as they were pre-skip. Evident by a dead man walking doflamingo laughing at G2 attacks, and blocking G3 attacks with ease.



About as baseless as claiming would need a trump card that we know jack shit about? Yeah okay.
Power structure wont change much between the M3. Havent seen enough to say otherwise. Until it does....... Yeah....


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Firo said:


> Getting your shit kicked in vs Doffy and still being able to fight and blocking his strings >>>>>>>>>> Pica
> And be real here/ Zoro would get the same treatment. Hell, even worse.
> 
> 
> ...



We shall agree to disagree then.

Last part is you bull shitting. 

Power structure won't Change? Power structure  has already changed before but that's a different discussion all together.

Let's say the power structure is the same. If that's the case then that means Zoro can still give a luffy a good fight like he always has (even with G4). Take G4 away then it makes no sense for Luffy to be able to High diff Zoro. Luffy has never been able to mid diff Zoro, and that's what your suggesting he can do if he can high diff Zoro without Gear 4.

Now I also think Luffy beating Zoro period is bull shit. But luffy beating him with high diff is pure wank\hate.


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## Firo (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Let's say the power structure is the same. If that's the case then that means Zoro can still give a luffy a good fight like he always has (even with G4). Take G4 away then it makes no sense for Luffy to be able to High diff Zoro. Luffy has never been able to mid diff Zoro, and that's what your suggesting he can do if he can high diff Zoro without Gear 4.



You misunderstand. Im not saying Zoro cant give Luffy a good fight if he uses his strongest techs. Im saying Luffy can still pull off a win without using them also.



> Now I also think Luffy beating Zoro period is bull shit. But luffy beating him with high diff is pure wank\hate.



FTR, I dont like Luffy.... At all. Especially since the timeskip.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

As long as you dont  think he can win with less then extreme diff then we are cool.

I for one think Oda has been pushing harder then he has ever done before that zoro is right up there with Luffy. But of course the manga means shit and Luffy>>Zoro even when restricted cause hes the captain .

Makes me wonder if Zoro was just a side charcter would people still say Luffy>Zoro.


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## Kaiser (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> G4 though is a completely new move while Asura is a move already seen and will propably just be stronger than pre-skip but there's nothing that suggests it's on the same level as a completely new move of Luffy's that's going to take down DD.


I know but the problem is that Zoro's base became stronger than Luffy's with time and Asura has the potential to triple base Zoro's stats. It's not like preskip where Base Luffy and Zoro were comparable and gears made him go a step higher. Besides we still don't know the exact nature of Asura even until yet


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

It doesn't matter if Base Zoro is stronger than Base Luffy. Zoro only has base. But Df powers are still part of Luffy do it really doesn't matter.


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## Kaiser (Apr 10, 2015)

I didn't say it mattered. It was just to explain the difference between pre and post-timeskip concerning the influence those power-ups have now. With devil fruit or not, Zoro showed stronger attacks than even gear3 Luffy, so i'm just saying that regardless of what Luffy will pull out with his new gear4 mode, it wouldn't necessarily overshadow the potential post-skip Asura that Zoro has yet to use, with his base stats already this high


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## Intus Legere (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Makes me wonder if Zoro was just a side charcter would people still say Luffy>Zoro.



Definitely wouldn't be so. I wondered the same thing recently.

Though there is a second factor there, which is how controversial Zoro is in the forums.

I said the same thing recently about Luffy and Zoro being equals -- or Luffy is marginally stronger -- because of the equal portrayal, but as far as feats and portrayal in fights go, Zoro was shown to be stronger. Look at this:




There are some people simply too attached to their dogmas. If Zoro wasn't a subordinate, their dogmas wouldn't apply.

[EDIT]

(I'm not complaining by the way, if Amol wants to believe in that, so be it. Despite Fisher Tiger and Buggy being quite clearly shown on the manga as weaker than subordinates, one must have the freedom to be wrong.)


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

My reasoning for Luffy being stronger is that he is fighting toe to toe with DD.
Yeah DD has dealt some good blows on Luffy but nothing to be worried about and Luffy had no knowledge about DD's DF.Also luffy got some hits too on DD.
Saying Luffy needs G4 to beat Zoro is like saying Zoro is on DD level when it's clear he is not.
Zoro's greatest feat post skip is beating Pica and Luffy would have no propblem doing the same.


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## Tenma (Apr 10, 2015)

So Luffy can high diff Zoro without G4 now?

Considering how 'well' he is doing against DD and assuming G4 makes them about equals, that would mean Luffy at full strength can low diff Zoro and Sanji. Which is bullshit.

People were (logically and rightfully) bringing up how Zoro shouldn't be low/mid-diffing Sanji because they are both part of M3 and no member of the M3 is easily defeating another, yet these same people are okay with Luffy low diffing Zoro?

Luffy isn't low diffing Sanji, much less Zoro, ever, no matter what he uses. Not even in EL where he pulled well ahead of them.

Luffy wins with G4 high diff, loses without high diff.


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## mastergimmy (Apr 10, 2015)

I think people should chill out and wait what G4 even does aye. What if its just some sort of temporary attack like asura? What if its not actually a "mode" liek G2 and he cant maintain it?

If its just some sort of one stance attack then everything argued is void


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2015)

It's going to make Luffy go from getting pretty whooped by Doflamingo to beating him. Why do you need to know anything more than that?


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Tenma said:


> So Luffy can high diff Zoro without G4 now?
> 
> Considering how 'well' he is doing against DD and assuming G4 makes them about equals, that would mean Luffy at full strength can low diff Zoro and Sanji. Which is bullshit.
> 
> ...



So Zoro with a similar G4 powerup is stronger than Luffy with G4 since Zoro is stronger than G4-less Luffy?
Maybe Zoro should take over as captain then.


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## Tenma (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> So Zoro with a similar G4 powerup is stronger than Luffy with G4 since Zoro is stronger than G4-less Luffy?
> Maybe Zoro should take over as captain then.



Zoro doesn't have a G4 powerup though. 

Unless you are referring to Asura which is allowed in this fight.

I guess if Franky had the Gura Gura, Garp-level Haki and was as fast as Kizaru he should take over as Captain as well. But he doesn't, just like Zoro doesn't have G4.


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## Firo (Apr 10, 2015)

-snip-                   .


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Zoro doesn't have a G4 powerup though.
> 
> Unless you are referring to Asura which is allowed in this fight.
> 
> I guess if Franky had the Gura Gura, Garp-level Haki and was as fast as Kizaru he should take over as Captain as well. But he doesn't, just like Zoro doesn't have G4.



He obviously has stronger attacks than the ones he showed.Unless you think Pica busters are the best he can do.

We know nothing about post Asura so i dont even bother with it in this fight..it has potential to be G4 level attack but we don't know for sure.

Luffy right now is going all out by using his G4 and obviously when Zoro goes all out he'll have a similar power-up.


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## Tenma (Apr 10, 2015)

> He obviously has stronger attacks than the ones he showed.Unless you think Pica busters are the best he can do.
> 
> We know nothing about post Asura so i dont even bother with it in this fight..it has potential to be G4 level attack but we don't know for sure.
> 
> Luffy right now is going all out by using his G4 and obviously when Zoro goes all out he'll have a similar power-up.



Yeah, but in this fight we are allowing Zoro to use his 'all-out' techniques and Asura while we are restricting Luffy's equivalent. Even you know Zoro has obviously only shown part of his strength, but in this fight he is allowed to use his hypothetical full strength unlike Luffy.

Point is, Luffy will never low or mid-diff Zoro ever. He will need G4 to defeat him, and he will always need to go all out to defeat Zoro.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Yeah, but in this fight we are allowing Zoro to use his 'all-out' techniques and Asura while we are restricting Luffy's equivalent. Even you know Zoro has obviously only shown part of his strength, but in this fight he is allowed to use his hypothetical full strength unlike Luffy.
> 
> Point is, Luffy will never low or mid-diff Zoro ever. He will need G4 to defeat him, and he will always need to go all out to defeat Zoro.



Wow i never realised that this thread was using a hypothetical super move of Zoro's we know nothing about...not that we know anything about G4 but anyway.
My whole point wasn't including this super hypothetical move and i won't even bother.

A normal G2/G3 Luffy would need high(mid) to very high diff but not extreme for a non-hypothetical Zoro imo


----------



## Venom (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> He obviously has stronger attacks than the ones he showed.Unless you think Pica busters are the best he can do.
> 
> We know nothing about post Asura so i dont even bother with it in this fight..it has potential to be G4 level attack but we don't know for sure.
> 
> Luffy right now is going all out by using his G4 and obviously when Zoro goes all out he'll have a similar power-up.



We also have no fucking idea what G4 is yet and we are still using it as a feat in this fight don't we?
So what exactly is wrong with using Zoro's strongest technique as a counterbalance to that?

The Doflamingo that Luffy is fighting right now is not the Doflamingo in the beginning of this arc
Law majorly weakened him already to a point where Dofla has to hold his organs together so they don't tear apart.
It was made pretty obvious by Luffy's statement this chapter about how Law must have injured him giving more credit to Law.

Luffy winning with his G4 now is going to be against a heavily injured Doflamingo so using this to say 
that Luffy is soo much stronger than Zoro because Zoro isn't >/= Dofla is quite frankly bullshit.

And seeing that G2 and G3's limits were barely able to hurt an already weakened Doflamingo 
no one can tell me that a Luffy who is just restricted to his G2 and 3 would be able 
to overpower a Zoro using 100% of his capabilities from which we have maybe seen what? 10%?


----------



## Tenma (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Wow i never realised that this thread was using a hypothetical super move of Zoro's we know nothing about...not that we know anything about G4 but anyway.
> My whole point wasn't including this super hypothetical move and i won't even bother.
> 
> A normal G2/G3 Luffy would need high(mid) to very high diff but not extreme for a non-hypothetical Zoro imo



This super-hypothetical move is Asura as of now, though there could be others (I feel that would be overkill though given how well Zoro is already being portrayed).

This isn't about some hypothetical Zoro. The point of this thread is whether Luffy can beat a _full power _Zoro with just G2/G3, which by extension a full power Luffy can low-diff a full power Zoro. I hope you realise how asinine that option is.


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

Zοrο said:


> > no one can tell me that a Luffy who is just restricted to his G2 and 3 would be able
> > to overpower a Zoro using 100% of his capabilities from which we have maybe seen what? 10%?


Are you saying Zoro has only showed 1/10th of what he has? Cause that's ludicrous.


----------



## Tenma (Apr 10, 2015)

But really guys I am disappoint.

Good posters in the Zoro vs Sanji thread rationally point out that Zoro should never be able to defeat Sanji with less than high diff as they are both M3 fighters, and yet these same posters claim that Luffy can beat Zoro with mid-high diff while having what is obviously a massive ass handicap.

What's next, swordless Zoro beats Sanji?


----------



## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Tenma said:


> This super-hypothetical move is Asura as of now, though there could be others (I feel that would be overkill though given how well Zoro is already being portrayed).
> 
> This isn't about some hypothetical Zoro. The point of this thread is whether Luffy can beat a _full power _Zoro with just G2/G3, which by extension a full power Luffy can low-diff a full power Zoro. I hope you realise how asinine that option is.



I'm not delusional or anything to believe that Luffy would ever low diff any M3 member no matter how many powerups he gets. 

We have literally zero evidence that Asura is that move though..not even the tiniest of hints..
Imo Zoro's "super move" will be something completely new just like G4.

Anyway for the sake of this argument:
G4-less Luffy < Super Saiyan Zoro


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## Tenma (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro has probably just increased his skill and versatility with Ashura and can probably use nine-sword versions of his Santoryu techniques now.

I don't think Zoro will have a super mode like Luffy, dude is mostly about techniques.

The fact that he has been largely using mid level techniques at this point indicates to me that Ashura is likely still his ultimate move, and he doesn't have a new powerup like Luffy who was spamming G3 and G2 back in Fishman Island. I mean Sanji and Luffy showed their preskip top moves 4 years ago, while the best Zoro has shown is Sanzen Sekai very recently.


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro beats Luffy without gear 4 very high difficulty. Luffy has wised up, and isn't going to rush and get chopped up. Zoro will ultimately win because his endurance is higher than Luffy's as well as his durability, not to mention the fact that Zoro has to tank blunt attacks while Luffy would have to tank his weakness, slashes. Gear 3 attacks can do devastating damage to Zoro, but that creates a rather large target. I agree, Zoro is on Luffy's level, and nothing less than Luffy's absolute best is going to beat him. I'm also of the opinion that Luffy can beat Sanji with low to low-mid difficulty.


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

DoctorLaw said:


> Zoro beats Luffy without gear 4 very high difficulty. Luffy has wised up, and isn't going to rush and get chopped up. Zoro will ultimately win because his endurance is higher than Luffy's as well as his durability, not to mention the fact that Zoro has to tank blunt attacks while Luffy would have to tank his weakness, slashes. Gear 3 attacks can do devastating damage to Zoro, but that creates a rather large target. I agree, Zoro is on Luffy's level, and nothing less than Luffy's absolute best is going to beat him. *I'm also of the opinion that Luffy can beat Sanji with low to low-mid difficulty.*


I have to take my invitation back


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2015)

That's actually what Luffy would do if some of the anti-Zoroites in this thread were correct. Luffy high diffing Zoro without G4 = Luffy mid-diffing at most Zoro w/ G4, and thus low or low-mid diffing Sanji w/ G4.

So yeah. That should tell you how absolutely ridiculous these anti-Zoroites are.


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## DoctorLaw (Apr 10, 2015)

Ha, it's not a popular opinion, but I honestly have to say I can't see Sanji laying more than a couple of hits on a dead serious Luffy. I see both sides though, and why it can be argued Sanji could possibly push Luffy to high difficulty, but I feel as though with their fighting styles, it tips it entirely in Luffy's favor. Luffy is much faster than Sanji, hits much, much, much harder, has superior haki, and trained with the PK first mate for 2 years. And Oda has shown Sanji decisively losing to opponents since the TS, whereas Luffy is going toe to toe with the 2nd strongest shichibukai, the same shichibukai who beat Law, who oneshotted Vergo, who cracked Sanji's strongest limb with low difficulty.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Apr 10, 2015)

I think this is a matter of whether people still assume Luffy with G2/G3 is still >= Zoro and G4 changes it to a high diff fight. I think its Logical to that Think Luffy is still stronger than Zoro without using G4 as G4 was never in the equation before these assumption where made so why change it? I do however think that Zoro takes it Very high diff as I am of the impression that an M3 member can't beat the other if restricted to using full power.


----------



## Yuki (Apr 10, 2015)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I think this is a matter of whether people still assume Luffy with G2/G3 is still >= Zoro and G4 changes it to a high diff fight. I think its Logical to that Think Luffy is still stronger than Zoro without using G4 as G4 was never in the equation before these assumption where made so why change it? I do however think that Zoro takes it Very high diff as I am of the impression that an M3 member can't beat the other if restricted to using full power.



Because power ups do nothing in forum debate power levels until shown other wise. 

We could find out Luffy has gear 5 next chapter and Luffy saying it is much stronger than Gear 4 then people will automatically put Zoro above Gear 4.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Apr 10, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Because power ups do nothing in forum debate power levels until shown other wise.



If that the case then that means Luffy with G2 and G3 is stronger than Zoro right?



> We could find out Luffy has gear 5 next chapter and Luffy saying it is much stronger than Gear 4 then people will automatically put Zoro above Gear 4.



Would that be fair though?


----------



## Yuki (Apr 10, 2015)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> If that the case then that means Luffy with G2 and G3 is stronger than Zoro right?
> 
> 
> 
> Would that be fair though?



No. >_>

It means that before people thought G2 Luffy => Zoro.

But now a new power up has came out, to keep to what people want which is Luffy >= Zoro, Zoro must now be > G2 Luffy so that Luffy going all out is >= Zoro going all out. 

... What? >_>


----------



## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Apparently in this thread Zoro has some hypothetical secret G4 level move (porp Asura) and that's how he can beat G4-less Luffy.
I doubt any sane person would believe that canon manga Zoro can beat G4-less Luffy.


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## Typhon (Apr 10, 2015)

Really jumping to conclusions here. Luffy not using G4 doesn't automatically translates to he would mid diff Zoro otherwise.

But then again, I don't think G4 will be some explosive power up. (Too much trust in Oda not to completely shit on G2/3)


----------



## kidgogeta (Apr 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> Sigh...
> Luffy wins . Like how many times we had this thread ?
> G4 is required for likes of DD not Zoro.
> And ffs Luffy is Captain.
> ...



But but but hes the captain! Just shut up already. That doesn't even qualify as an argument and yet you repeating it like it means something.Captain = strongest is just a conclusion that you came to on your own. Nobody cares about who you feel should be the strongest. In the battle dome, we go by feats and portrayal. 

Based on those two things, Zoro isn't losing to a restricted Luffy. It's really that simple.


----------



## Yuki (Apr 10, 2015)

kidgogeta said:


> But but but hes the captain! Just shut up already. That doesn't even qualify as an argument and yet you repeating it like it means something.Captain = strongest is just a conclusion that you came to on your own. Nobody cares about who you feel should be the strongest. In the battle dome, we go by feats and portrayal.
> 
> Zoro isn't losing to a restricted Luffy.



No crew member has ever been stronger than their Captain... please stfu.


----------



## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Oh god..now even Luffy's captainship means jack....ok


----------



## kidgogeta (Apr 10, 2015)

No crew ever had Zoro in it. What's your point? Name one first mate with the same portrayal in this manga as Zoro. You can't do it.


----------



## Extravlad (Apr 10, 2015)

> No crew member has ever been stronger than their Captain... please stfu.


Half of Buggy's crew is stronger than him.

The seats were stronger than Doffy when they first joined him.


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## kidgogeta (Apr 10, 2015)

Shillew was stronger than Blackbeard before the quake fruit. It was a stupid argument that Juvia just threw out without thinking.

Zoro haters, this isn't about how you FEEL. Say it with me. FEATS and PORTRAYAL. Set your bias aside for once.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2015)

Maybe instead of thinking captain > crewmember as an unbreakable _rule_

we could see it as a thing that's nearly always true for very specific reasons, reasons which can be subverted depending on circumstances

since that's what it actually is.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> *Apparently in this thread Zoro has some hypothetical secret G4 level move (porp Asura) and that's how he can beat G4-less Luffy.*
> I doubt any sane person would believe that canon manga Zoro can beat G4-less Luffy.



No, i don't think anyone is assuming Zoro has some new power-up. I'm sure he has some new Ashura attacks but nothing new like G4.

Nor does he need one to beat a restricted Luffy. Like saying Sanji needs a new power up to beat a restricted Zoro.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Apr 10, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> No. >_>
> 
> It means that before people thought G2 Luffy => Zoro.
> 
> ...



You see there's too much double standard when Zoro is involved.


----------



## Yuki (Apr 10, 2015)

kidgogeta said:


> No crew ever had Zoro in it. What's your point? Name one first mate with the same portrayal in this manga as Zoro. You can't do it.



Nope.



kidgogeta said:


> Shillew was stronger than Blackbeard before the quake fruit. It was a stupid argument that Juvia just threw out without thinking.



And nope. 

New ignore list member. Congratulations.


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## Intus Legere (Apr 10, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> No crew member has ever been stronger than their Captain... please stfu.



Fisher Tiger and Jinbe. (The other cases that were mentioned as well, the Seats when they joined Doflamingo, Buggy and his Impel Down recruits.)


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## kidgogeta (Apr 10, 2015)

Oh look another poster who got too emotionally invested and threw a fit because their lack of argument was exposed. Still waiting for something other then but but but captain! Captain!!!

If there's nothing else we can all agree Zoro can't possibly lose to a heavily restricted Luffy.  Zoro has clearly been outperforming G2, without using his full arsenal. Anyone with eyes can see that.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Typhon said:


> *Really jumping to conclusions here. Luffy not using G4 doesn't automatically translates to he would mid diff Zoro otherwise.*
> 
> But then again, I don't think G4 will be some explosive power up. (Too much trust in Oda not to completely shit on G2/3)



Yes it does actually. 



Coruscation said:


> *It's going to make Luffy go from getting pretty whooped by Doflamingo to beating him. Why do you need to know anything more than that*?



There is no way around this Unless G4 is perfectly tailor made to counter Doflamingo.(Which would be beyond retarded bull shit). 

If Luffy can beat Zoro with High without G4. Then he is going to get Mid diff, maybe even low if Luffy can gear stack G4 with G2/G3.

And Sanji  he gets steam rolled into paste.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

Luffy takes this high diff.

And Zoro stated that he would leave the crew if Luffy becomes weaker than himself. But well... He also said that he wouldn't lose against anyone after losing against Mihawk... and we know how the thing went...


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> No, i don't think anyone is assuming Zoro has some new power-up. I'm sure he has some new Ashura attacks but nothing new like G4.
> 
> Nor does he need one to beat a restricted Luffy. Like saying Sanji needs a new power up to beat a restricted Zoro.



I don't remember anyone saying Zoro beats Luffy before this G4 reveal and now suddenly Zoro can beat a G4-less Luffy?

So Zoro>Luffy all this time right?

I remember the general consensus to be Luffy>=Law>Zoro.


----------



## Yuki (Apr 10, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> Fisher Tiger and Jinbe. (The other cases that were mentioned as well, the Seats when they joined Doflamingo, Buggy and his Impel Down recruits.)



Fisher Tiger and Jinbe were said to be the same strength in the manga.

That is a Luffy and Zoro scenario.

His death was like a Roger one, plot induced. Just before you brought up his death to fodder.

DD was a VERY special case and that didn't last for long. Buggy is also a special case but your point is made.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> I don't remember anyone saying Zoro beats Luffy before this G4 reveal and now suddenly Zoro can beat a G4-less Luffy?



Thats because despite pretty much everyone seeing that Zoro had better feats and portrayal then Luffy. We all assumed that Luffy was stronger(Despite looking like shit for the last 5 years) because Luffy is the main character and captain. 

But guess what Luffy has a power-up that he has been hiding so now its all good. The luffy is captain and main character argument so he wins does not applie to a restricted Luffy. Only applies to Luffy at full strength. 

Full Power Luffy>Full Power Zoro>Restricted Luffy>Restricted Zoro. 

Same shit that has been since the manga began. 



> So Zoro>Luffy all this time right?



G2/G3 Luffy Yes. 

Which is supported by feats and portryal. Re-read the last few arcs. 



> I remember the general consensus to be Luffy>=Law>Zoro.



Yes thats probably the general consensus.  

Although just switch law with luffys position.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> I don't remember anyone saying Zoro beats Luffy before this G4 reveal and now suddenly Zoro can beat a G4-less Luffy?
> 
> So Zoro>Luffy all this time right?
> 
> I remember the general consensus to be Luffy>=Law>Zoro.




But that was before Fuji made Zoro bleed casually and Zoro's counter couldn't even injure Fuji, that "battle" showed that Zoro is almost admiral level.

How all the Zoro tards and a normal reader saw that:

1 Fuji makes Zoro bleed with his casual gravity
Zoro tards: Oh my god! Zoro can tank the attacks of an admiral, he is almost admiral level
Normal reader: So Zoro would still be injured by a casual attack of an admiral...

2 Zoro's counter pushed Fuji a few meters:
Zoro tards: Oohhh my god! Zoro just overpowered an admiral, he has just basically stomp an admiral, Zoro is yonko level
Normal reader: Not bad, Zoro can give an admiral some troubles.

Luffy has dodged and countered DD without G4, he even injured DD withoout G4, that's a feat that puts him a tier above Zoro at least.


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## kidgogeta (Apr 10, 2015)

I honestly don't know how some of you will deal with Wano / Asura. The amount mental gymnastics will be unprecedented in OL.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

kidgogeta said:


> I honestly don't know how some of you will deal with Wano / Asura. The amount mental gymnastics will be unprecedented in OL.



I expect that a lot of Zoro haters will drop One piece in Wano.


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## Ruse (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro wins. Luffy can't beat him while restricted. I know we haven't seen G4 yet but its obviously supposed to be viewed as Luffy's trump card just like G2 was during EL.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Thats because despite pretty much everyone seeing that Zoro had better feats and portrayal then Luffy. We all assumed that Luffy was stronger(Despite looking like shit for the last 5 years) because Luffy is the main character and captain.
> 
> But guess what Luffy has a power-up that he has been hiding so now its all good. The luffy is captain and main character argument so he wins does not applie to a restricted Luffy. Only applies to Luffy at full strength.
> 
> Full Power Luffy>Full Power Zoro>Restricted Luffy>Restricted Zoro.



Can you please explain what do you mean by unrestricted and restricted Zoro?



> G2/G3 Luffy Yes.
> 
> Which is supported by feats and portryal. Re-read the last few arcs.



As i said before Zoro's best feat is one shotting Pica which Luffy can replicate.




> Yes thats probably the general consensus.
> 
> Although just switch law with luffys position.



Cool then we agree that Luffy > Zoro. And yeah i agree with Law>=Luffy.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 








No G4, and still more than enough to put Luffy a whole tier above Zoro.

Unless you think that Zoro is on par if not above DD


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Can you please explain what do you mean by unrestricted and restricted Zoro?



Any major restriction.

Such as taking away a sword or taking away Ashura. 

For example lets take it back to EL. The time when Luffy was the strongest he has ever been compared to Zoro/Sanji. But if you take away the Gears then Zoro probably wins. Take away Zoro's Ashura then Sanji beats Zoro(With his Power up at the time DJ). 




> As i said before Zoro's best feat is one shotting Pica which Luffy can replicate.



I agree Luffy can also destroy Pica and defeat him with relative ease. 






> Cool then we agree that Luffy > Zoro. And yeah i agree with Law>=Luffy.



Pretty much everyone besides the Zoro trolls(Like Vlad) Think Luffy>zoro.. 

All im saying is Zoro>(Restricted) Luffy. Which is not some crazy new thing. Zoro and arguably Sanji have always been able to beat or come very close to defeating a nerf Luffy. 

But now all of sudden Luffy can High Diff Zoro without going all out, and mid diff Sanji without going all out. Which has never been the case in the entire manga, and Luffys weak sauce feats and portrayal dame sure don't support such a notion.




Zuhaitz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is this some kind of joke? 

1. You don't need to be on par or above someone in order to hurt someone. I guess Bellamy>=Luffy now right? 

2. Doflamingo took a Red Hawk, Counter Shock, Gamma knife, injection shot, Jet Stamp and i think something else. He is severely injured and all luffy did was get two hits on him. Don't see whats strange about Zoro being able to hurt a half dead Doflamingo. Seeing as a beat the shit up Law is capable of hurting a much healthier Doflamingo then the one Luffy fought. 

Oh wait i forgot Zoro is foddder compared to Luffy and law, thats what Oda has been letting us know the last two arcs.


----------



## kidgogeta (Apr 10, 2015)

It's like saying that in Enies Lobby if Zoro had access to Asura and Luffy couldn't use g2 / g3 Zoro would still lose. It's dumb.


----------



## King plasma (Apr 10, 2015)

uhh i don't get why people are saying Luffy is on par with Doflamingo? wtf. Have you been reading the same manga i have? 

>Doffy has been weakened by Law
>Luffy has been getting his ass kicked for the majority of the fight
>Already lost a scuffle or two with Doffy.
>Doffy made fun of his G2 attack power and called his G3 slow. Contrast that to Sanji who was actually moderately praised for his DJ. 
>Luffy needs a massive power up (G4) to beat a nerfed Doffy and even at that theirs going to be a lot of PIS involved. 

yup Luffy has gotta be at least 2 tiers above Zoro, and 3 above Sanji.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Oh wait i forgot Zoro is foddder compared to Luffy and law, thats what Oda has been letting us know the last two arcs.



Now you get it.

Btw what feats do Zoro have that make you think that he can injure DD (being fast and strong enough to hit him and injure him)?


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Apr 10, 2015)

King plasma said:


> uhh i don't get why people are saying Luffy is on par with Doflamingo? wtf. Have you been reading the same manga i have?
> 
> >Doffy has been weakened by Law
> >Luffy has been getting his ass kicked for the majority of the fight
> ...



I don't  think PIS would play such a huge part seeing as Luffy is keeping up with DD though on the losing end G4 should give him the edge its most likely going to be that he can't sustain it for along period of time


----------



## King plasma (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm sceptical because most of Luffy's fights involve PIS one way or another. The only exceptions have been ... lets see East blue, and EL?


----------



## Kaiser (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Now you get it.
> 
> Btw what feats do Zoro have that make you think that he can injure DD (being fast and strong enough to hit him and injure him)?


Surely if Doflamingo can be injured with basic punches(although he is a lot weaker due to Law's technique), it should tell you that injuring him isn't an issue. The problem is to give significant damage since Doflamingo has great physical stats in strength, durability and endurance. 

However, Doflamingo praised the power of gear3 bazooka(grizzly magnum), preferring to dodge it instead and Zoro's sanzen sekai is much more powerful. Doflamingo has been shown bleeding while grabbing Law's sword, showing that his haki can't completely protect against cutting abilities. Sanzen Sekai brought a Pica(protected by full body haki) from full health to zero in one shot

There is no evidence Doflamingo could tank that. Though seeing how agile of a fighter Doflamingo is, he probably won't be hit by it in the first place


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Surely if Doflamingo can be injured with basic punches(although he is a lot weaker due to Law's technique), it should tell you that injuring him isn't an issue. The problem is to give significant damage since Doflamingo has great physical stats in strength, durability and endurance.
> 
> However, Doflamingo praised the power of gear3 bazooka(grizzly magnum), preferring to dodge it instead and Zoro's sanzen sekai is much more powerful. Doflamingo has been shown bleeding while grabbing Law's sword, showing that his haki can't completely protect against cutting abilities. Sanzen Sekai brought a Pica(protected by full body haki) from full health to zero in one shot
> 
> There is no evidence Doflamingo could tank that. Though seeing how agile of a fighter Doflamingo is, he probably won't be hit by it in the first place




Does Zoro have the speed to hit DD?
Does Zoro have the strenght to injure DD if he gets to hit him?

He may have the strenght, even when he lacks feat to show it, as he has never injured someone as powerful as DD, but he lacks the speed to hit him. DD can dance around Zoro without Zoro being able to hit him...

If he lacks speed against DD, imagine against G2 Luffy who is faster.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Now you get it.
> 
> Btw what feats do Zoro have that make you think that he can injure DD (being fast and strong enough to hit him and injure him)?



How about you look at the panel you just posted. Base Luffy punched Doflamingo in the face and hurt him. 

Since when is a Basic Luffy punch stronger then Zoro's attacks? Since when were Luffys attacks multiple tiers above Zoro, because i honestly missed them. Because from what i recall Zoro is the one who has always one shot or two shot his opponents while Luffy beat his opponents down with a shit ton of punches/kicks. 

In terms of feats. Here you go. 



In case you forgot Luffy used a G2 Haki attack against that Dragon and it did shit. The attack Luffy used on the dragon was stronger then the attack he used on doflamingo which hurt him. 

Base Luffy, Sanji, and Law are capable of hitting Doflamingo. Goes without saying that Zoro is fast enough to do the same


----------



## Typhon (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yes it does actually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is agreed on these forums that Luffy would never use G3 against Zoro at the risk of getting his arms sliced off, but people still think Luffy wins. Does that mean Luffy would mid diff him otherwise?

We still don't know what G4 does yet, but it will give him the edge against someone that is out of Zoro and Sanji's league anyway. Believe that Zoro or Sanji wouldn't just walk off a Red Hawk and an onslaught of G2 hardened attacks.


----------



## Bernkastel (Apr 10, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Any major restriction.
> 
> Such as taking away a sword or taking away Ashura.
> 
> For example lets take it back to EL. The time when Luffy was the strongest he has ever been compared to Zoro/Sanji. But if you take away the Gears then Zoro probably wins. Take away Zoro's Ashura then Sanji beats Zoro(With his Power up at the time DJ).



Tbh i don't remember much from EL but u're propably right.
Though i believe that G3 is not needed to put Zoro as G2 would be enough back then.

As for current Zoro i just find it silly to use Asura when we've seen/have zero hints as to how it works post skip.Yeah propably it's much stronger than pre skip but we have no clue to what extent.
In this whole thread my every post was about current Luffy > current Zoro.(no G4 no hypothetic Asura/secret tech)




> Pretty much everyone besides the Zoro trolls(Like Vlad) Think Luffy>zoro..







> All im saying is Zoro>(Restricted) Luffy. Which is not some crazy new thing. Zoro and arguably Sanji have always been able to beat or come very close to defeating a nerf Luffy.
> 
> 
> But now all of sudden Luffy can High Diff Zoro without going all out, and mid diff Sanji without going all out. Which has never been the case in the entire manga, and Luffys weak sauce feats and portrayal dame sure don't support such a notion.



I see what you mean.
To me though untill Zoro shows this upgraded Asura/secret tech i consider him unrestricted.

Yeah this hypothetical Zoro > G2/G3 Luffy ..i just find it silly to use it in debates.
It's like using G5 in future battles even though Luffy had never used it but will propably get it someday.

I think we agree that Asura-less Zoro< G4-less Luffy.
Let's leave G4 and Asura out since there's really no point discussing 2 moves we know nothing about.
Anyway Im going to sleep now g'night


----------



## barreltheif (Apr 10, 2015)

Everything Zoro has done in the last 200 chapters has been vastly more impressive than anything Luffy has done.

Hyouzou could actually fight back against Luffy. Zoro fodderized a stronger version of Hyouzou.
Zoro fodderized Hody underwater. A stronger version of Hody gave Luffy a good fight.
Luffy and Zoro both fought the PH dragon, and Zoro was the one to beat him.
Monet nearly beat Luffy. Luffy had to run away. Zoro fodderized her.
Caesar actually did beat Luffy.
Zoro clashed with Fujitora and held his ground. He looked better in his clashes than Sanji did in his clash with Doflamingo.
A weaker, flathead Chinjao gave Luffy mid-high diff. Pica couldn't give Zoro mid diff.
Luffy struggled against Doffy's clone, and was injured by Bellamy. He looked like a sideshow for Law.

You can try to explain some of these away. But you'd be missing the point.
*Consistently, for 200 chapters, Zoro's feats, performance, and portrayal have been a league above Luffy's.*


*However.* There was still one very good reason to think that Luffy is at least as strong as Zoro.
Luffy is the captain and the main character. He should be stronger. And we have known for a while that he's going to beat Doflamingo, and Doflamingo is definitely stronger than Zoro and Law. So Luffy should be as strong as them, if not stronger.

Now that we know about Gear Fourth, this all makes sense. Without Gear Fourth, Luffy is weaker than Zoro and Law. Luffy has seemed weaker because he really is weaker, without his strongest form.
It would be absolutely ridiculous to go against both clear evidence and common sense, and claim that Luffy was really stronger than Law and Zoro this whole time, without even using his best form.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Apr 10, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Surely if Doflamingo can be injured with basic punches(although he is a lot weaker due to Law's technique), it should tell you that injuring him isn't an issue. The problem is to give significant damage since Doflamingo has great physical stats in strength, durability and endurance.
> 
> However, Doflamingo praised the power of gear3 bazooka(grizzly magnum), preferring to dodge it instead and *Zoro's sanzen sekai is much more powerful. Doflamingo has been shown bleeding while grabbing Law's sword, showing that his haki can't completely protect against cutting abilities. Sanzen Sekai brought a Pica(protected by full body haki) from full health to zero in one shot
> 
> There is no evidence Doflamingo could tank that. Though seeing how agile of a fighter Doflamingo is, he probably won't be hit by it in the first place*



Well this is actually debatable, Pica was attacking Zoro in an last ditch effort, but Zoro's attack overpowered his along with his haki. I would like to think that if DD was approaching in that same manner he would have most probably cancelled out Zoro attack, but then again Zoro said there's nothing he can't cut.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Tbh i don't remember much from EL but u're propably right.
> Though i believe that G3 is not needed to put Zoro as G2 would be enough back then.
> 
> As for current Zoro i just find it silly to use Asura when we've seen/have zero hints as to how it works post skip.Yeah propably it's much stronger than pre skip but we have no clue to what extent.
> ...



Why are you comparing G4 to Ashura anyway im confused? Sure we don't know a lot about Ashura but what we do know is that Ashura is Zoro's power up he got back in EL. Just like DJ was for Sanji and Gears for Luffy. All we need to know is that Ashura is Zoros strongest attacks(That we know off). Ashura>Three Thousand Worlds that he used against Pica we know that much at least. Even without Ashura Zoro has been looking stronger then G2/G3 Luffy so its not that much of a stretch to suggest that Full power Ashura would be able to push Luffy to his limits when Luffy can't use his full power. 

Yes i am using some speculation but we all are. Nobody knows how Strong Luffy or Zoro are. All we can go on is feats, hype, portrayal, and referencing things in the past as Oda is a man of patterns i think we can all agree on that much. 

Here are some facts.

1. Luffy has not had head and tails better Portrayal then Zoro.
2. luffys feats are not heads and tails better then Zoro. 
3. Zoro has been holding back just as much if not more so then luffy has. 

Combine those 3 things together and you have to do some crazy mental gymnastics to think that Luffy can High diff Zoro without using G4, and that such a thing does not spit in the face of the M3 Dynamic that has been intact since East Blue. 

Can G2/G3 Luffy beat Zoro perhaps, but some people here are suggesting its Zoro wank or ridiculous that Zoro could beat him while restricted. Which has never been the case in the entire manga, and thats not debatable. Not to mention it also suggests that Luffy can low diff Sanji which is bull shit.* Thats not to say you think luffy can win with High diff, but thats what i have been arguing against. *


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## Kaiser (Apr 10, 2015)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Well this is actually debatable, Pica was attacking Zoro in an last ditch effort, but Zoro's attack overpowered his along with his haki. I would like to think that if DD was approaching in that same manner he would have most probably cancelled out Zoro attack, but then again Zoro said there's nothing he can't cut.


Doesn't matter really. Someone like Caesar woke up few seconds after being hit by a COA grizzly magnum head on when a massively stronger foe and physical beast like Pica was brought down from full health to zero by a COA sanzen sekai despite being protected himself by a full body haki COA barrier. So it means the attack power and COA haki behind sanzen sekai is greater and i don't see Doflamingo tanking a grizzly magnum with zero issues in the first place, so sanzen sekai should do heavy damage


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## IchLiebe (Apr 10, 2015)

How does Zoro touch gear 2nd Luffy with COO? He had an extended fight with Pica and couldn't land a hit. Now I don't know your opinions of Pica's speed but putting him on Luffy's tier is laughable at best. Luffy blitz's and does red hawk. Zoro doesn't have the speed feats to dodge.


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## King plasma (Apr 10, 2015)

Zoro is slow as a snail. That's why he's always had issues with speed and reactions through out the entire manga.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Apr 10, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Doesn't matter really. Someone like Caesar woke up few seconds after being hit by a COA grizzly magnum head on when a massively stronger foe and physical beast like Pica was brought down from full health to zero by a COA sanzen sekai despite being protected himself by a full body haki COA barrier. So it means the attack power and COA haki behind sanzen sekai is greater and i don't see Doflamingo tanking a grizzly magnum with zero issues in the first place, so sanzen sekai should do heavy damage



Am not debating about the power of G3 am saying that if DD attacked Zoro in the same fashion Pica did he most likely would have overpowered Zoro seeing as everything would have been put in it his attack.



IchLiebe said:


> How does Zoro touch gear 2nd Luffy with COO? He had an extended fight with Pica and couldn't land a hit. Now I don't know your opinions of Pica's speed but putting him on Luffy's tier is laughable at best. Luffy blitz's and does red hawk. Zoro doesn't have the speed feats to dodge.



Speed has never been an issue for Zoro sure Luffy is faster but Zoro will still be able to keep up


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## IchLiebe (Apr 10, 2015)

Never had issues with speed yet it took him how long to land ONE hit on Pica?  The only time he managed to land a blow on Pica was when Pica came out right at him stupidly despite using 1080 pound cannon and his "mountain" cutting moves. I'm sorry but you can't just say Zoro hasn't had problems with speed when he has NEVER fought someone close to gear 2nd Luffy. 

Have you ever had problems dodging bullets? I'm going to assume you haven't just on the basis that most people have never been shot. Now how confident are you that you could dodge a simple 22 caliber gun at say 100 feet? Would you even attempt it simply because you've never been shot? No, why? Because that would be fucking retarded. Feats please.


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## Lawliet (Apr 10, 2015)

I just wanna punch everyone who says how can Zoro touch G2 Luffy in the throat. Think about what you say for a second. If you're on the same level, speed will play a role but not a crucial one. How can anyone tag kizaru then


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## Kaiser (Apr 10, 2015)

Against Pica, it was a mobility issue. Zoro has never been great to cover distances from A to B, but it's his reaction and striking speed that has always been emphasized throughout the manga and they are the most important points in close-mid range combat, so while Luffy has better dashing speed, it won't be an issue in the fight due to Zoro's great striking and reaction time. I mean, even preskip injured Zoro was dodging Kuma's light speed pad cannons, post-skip his striking speed was emphasized to be faster than fishmen on Hody's standard underwater. 

On the other side, base Hyouzou reacted to gear second Luffy when Zoro made a fool of a Hyouzou who was multiple times stronger. It's clear the speed impact of gear2 significantly decreased with time. Not to mention the strength behind them that have been again explained in latest chapter to be lacking. It also explain how Caesar was capable to tank multiple of them without too much issues

When you look at things this way, it really shows why the gear4 introduction was important


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## IchLiebe (Apr 10, 2015)

How many people have tagged Kizaru? Rayleigh, Marco, and Whitebeard (not sure about him). But I'm don't believe Kizaru is light speed either so. Luffy has outrun an explosion, has run so fast the ground caught fire in base, yet Zoro keeps up just cause no one else has given him trouble (despite him taking an entire fight to land 1 hit on Pica and having clear trouble there). I don't get the logic in here. We can say something and it's just true? That's how it seems every time I come to this BD. Despite everyone arguing that Zoro has better haki feats but I ask for speed feats and get "he didn't have trouble with fodder". Someone better post a speed feat from Zoro to suggest he dodges or hits gear 2nd luffy or this is gonna go downhill real fast.


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## barreltheif (Apr 10, 2015)

Hody, Monet, Bellamy, Caesar, Chinjao, and Doffy's clone could keep up with Luffy and land hits on him.
I'm pretty sure Zoro will be okay.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 10, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Against Pica, it was a mobility issue. Zoro has never been great to cover distances from A to B, but it's his reaction and striking speed that has always been emphasized throughout the manga and they are the most important points in close-mid range combat, so while Luffy has better dashing speed, it won't be an issue in the fight due to Zoro's great striking and reaction time. I mean, even preskip injured Zoro was dodging Kuma's light speed pad cannons, post-skip his striking speed was emphasized to be faster than fishmen on Hody's standard underwater.
> 
> On the other side, base Hyouzou reacted to gear second Luffy when Zoro made a fool of a Hyouzou who was multiple times stronger. It's clear the speed impact of gear2 significantly decreased with time. Not to mention the strength behind them that have been again explained in latest chapter to be lacking. It also explain how Caesar was capable to tank multiple of them without too much issues
> 
> When you look at things this way, it really shows why the gear4 introduction was important



Luffy with a devil fruit in a bubble was tagging Hody (post steriods so multiple times stronger) in water. Against Hyouzou it was the same against Pica, didn't land a hit till they ran in head first. He can't do that against Luffy when Luffy crosses that distance 100x faster. Luffy can cross a to b with 0 problems and the first time he does, is Zoro going to block. To say he is when he has never fought someone close to Luffy's speed is insane. Basically someone charged at him Ussop speed and he hit them and you use that to say he kills Luffy. I just don't get it.


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Hody, Monet, Bellamy, Caesar, Chinjao, and Doffy's clone could keep up with Luffy and land hits on him.
> I'm pretty sure Zoro will be okay.



Luffy isn't going to treat Zoro like any of those people whether IC or bloodlusted and that's not a good thing.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 10, 2015)

Monet never hit Luffy did she? I thought she just put him in an igloo. Bellamy hit a Luffy who didn't want to fight. Chinjao never hit luffy, they just hit head on (fist to fist) from what I recall. Caesar never hit him, only took air out of the area. Doffy's clone hasn't shown to be slower than Doffy himself.

But hell, I haven't read the manga 30-40 times so I may be wrong. I just know Zoro ain't as fast as gear 2nd Luffy on the basis of same tier, never had problems with other people, etc.


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## kidgogeta (Apr 10, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Consistently, for 200 chapters, Zoro's feats, performance, and portrayal have been a league above Luffy's.
> .


 This a million times. The story even just gave us a reason why Zoro looks better. Because Luffy has G4 to edge Zoro out.So to ignore their respective performances and say well Luffy doesn't need G4 to win because he's the captain. I can't call that anything but asinine.

How can anyone actually claim that G2 would be enough? We have PANELS straight out of the manga with Luffy doing a G2 attack, failing to do significant damage, and Zoro follows up and ends it swiftly with one move. G2 clearly isn't what it use to be.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 10, 2015)

I think Luffy won't truly catch up to Zoro until Gear 6    

Gear 4 = Base Zoro
Gear 5 = Wano Base Zoro
Gear 6 = Ashura Zoro


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Monet never hit Luffy did she? I thought she just put him in an igloo.


Yeah she intercepted his G2 attack with a defensive wall, and after getting Caeser out of the picture got in his guard for the Frozen Hug 10 Layer Igloo Attack.

To be fair though she also outmaneuvered Zoro.


----------



## Dellinger (Apr 10, 2015)

kidgogeta said:


> This a million times. The story even just gave us a reason why Zoro looks better. Because Luffy has G4 to edge Zoro out.So to ignore their respective performances and say well Luffy doesn't need G4 to win because he's the captain. I can't call that anything but asinine.
> 
> How can anyone actually claim that G2 would be enough? We have PANELS straight out of the manga with Luffy doing a G2 attack, failing to do significant damage, and Zoro follows up and ends it swiftly with one move. G2 clearly isn't what it use to be.



Luffy has Gear 4 to beat a beast like Doflamingo,not to compete with Zoro.

Where are those panels?

Also will people stop bringing the Monet shit up?Luffy did not fight her.


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## Imagine_Breaker (Apr 10, 2015)

Luffy still wins with around high-high difficulty. Gear 4 Luffy would probably high-low difficulty Zoro mid-mid difficulty Sanji.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Apr 10, 2015)

_In terms of 1 vs 1 against Doflamingo Luffy didn't do much worse than Law without using this G4 that was just revealed, and seeing how all individuals that should gravitate around Zoro's level of strength ( Law, Smoker, Sanji ) fared against our Dressrosa villain i highly doubt Zoro would outshine their achievements by any noteworthy margin. It's hard to guess the outcome of a G4 restricted Luffy vs Roronoa without any information in regards to the technique that it's being restricted here. If his fourth gear follows the same formula as G2 and G3 it should not be something strictly better than the other two, just another tool with advantages and disadvantages when compared to them. Would a G3 restricted Enies Lobby Luffy have been able to defeat Zoro for example ? I really don't think that's out of question, but even if that would have been the case back then we can't be 100% sure that applies now. What i'm sure of is that a non restricted fight between the two should at the very least end with a high end of high difficulty victory for Luffy, while a more likely outcome in my opinion would be Luffy winning with very high difficulty. Since Sanji should at the very least give Luffy a low end of high difficulty + fight, Zoro should always do better than that. It all depends on what G4 really is and how exactly that affects Luffy's fighting potential, so until that's clarified this can go either way._


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## Tenma (Apr 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Apparently in this thread Zoro has some hypothetical secret G4 level move (porp Asura) and that's how he can beat G4-less Luffy.
> I doubt any sane person would believe that canon manga Zoro can beat G4-less Luffy.



Did you read anything I wrote? Luffy isn't beating another member of the M3 with less than high diff.

Luffy is currently getting low-mid diffed by Doffy (actually more like flat out low diffed but I am being generous here). If G4 pushes the fight to impasse, G4 Luffy can basically low diff his current self, who can beat Zoro...do you see where I'm getting at?

Hell you wrote this in the Zoro vs Sanji thread-



Bernkastel said:


> Zoro would certainly need high diff to beat Sanji.Lol at some people saying low diff.So Sanji is weak trio now?



If Zoro needs high diff to beat Sanji as he's M3, what makes Luffy the exception? Replace Zoro with Luffy and Sanji with Zoro and that's what the Luffy wankers are saying now.

If Zoro doesn't have a secret powerup, Luffy still beats him high or extreme diff both at full strength. If Zoro does have a secret powerup, Luffy still beats him high or extreme diff both at full strength. It doesn't matter what Zoro has or what Luffy has. Luffy is never going to beat Zoro _while holding back like 50% of his strength._


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 11, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy has Gear 4 to beat a beast like Doflamingo,not to compete with Zoro.
> 
> Where are those panels?
> 
> Also will people stop bringing the Monet shit up?Luffy did not fight her.



And why did luffy not fight monet.

Oh yea he couldn't get out of her igloo


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## ShadoLord (Apr 11, 2015)

Luffy has a weakness to women.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 11, 2015)

Wave said:


> Luffy has a weakness to women.



I hope he gets over it.

Cause big mom is coming for dat ass


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## ShadoLord (Apr 11, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I hope he gets over it.
> 
> Cause big mom is coming for dat ass



Sanji will seduced Big Mam to his side


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Apr 11, 2015)

Zoro high diff


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 11, 2015)

Wave said:


> Sanji will seduced Big Mam to his side



Big Daddy Sanji


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## Bernkastel (Apr 11, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Why are you comparing G4 to Ashura anyway im confused? Sure we don't know a lot about Ashura but what we do know is that Ashura is Zoro's power up he got back in EL. Just like DJ was for Sanji and Gears for Luffy. All we need to know is that Ashura is Zoros strongest attacks(That we know off). Ashura>Three Thousand Worlds that he used against Pica we know that much at least. Even without Ashura Zoro has been looking stronger then G2/G3 Luffy so its not that much of a stretch to suggest that Full power Ashura would be able to push Luffy to his limits when Luffy can't use his full power.
> 
> Yes i am using some speculation but we all are. Nobody knows how Strong Luffy or Zoro are. All we can go on is feats, hype, portrayal, and referencing things in the past as Oda is a man of patterns i think we can all agree on that much.
> 
> ...



Luffy would need high(mid) to very high diff for Zoro and high(low) for Sanji..at least that's how i view it.
Yeah Sanji might get mid(high)-diffed by G4 depending on how it works and that's the logical thing.DD the guy who low-diffed Sanji will get defeated by that move.
Untill the rest of the M3 shows something equally strong they'll fall a bit behind for the time being but Zoro not that much.
But yeah i agree that current(restricted) Luffy would need at least high(mid) for Zoro(current) but it won't be extreme diff.



Tenma said:


> Did you read anything I wrote? Luffy isn't beating another member of the M3 with less than high diff.
> 
> Luffy is currently getting low-mid diffed by Doffy (actually more like flat out low diffed but I am being generous here). If G4 pushes the fight to impasse, G4 Luffy can basically low diff his current self, who can beat Zoro...do you see where I'm getting at?



No he doesn't get low-diffed.There's no way G4 turns a low diff fight to win for Luffy.
Luffy would by lying dead by now if he could low diff him.The fight is a solid high diff and G4 will propably give Luffy the win.




> Hell you wrote this in the Zoro vs Sanji thread-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_

And that's what i'm saying..i don't know about the wankers who think G4-less Luffy would mid diff Zoro but i'm not one of them.As i said to DD G4-less Luffy would need at least high(mid) diff for Zoro..i just don't believe he would need extreme,that's all.
For Sanji he would need high(low)._


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## DanElectro (Apr 11, 2015)

Extreme diff either way.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 11, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> How about you look at the panel you just posted. Base Luffy punched Doflamingo in the face and hurt him.
> 
> Since when is a Basic Luffy punch stronger then Zoro's attacks? Since when were Luffys attacks multiple tiers above Zoro, because i honestly missed them. Because from what i recall Zoro is the one who has always one shot or two shot his opponents while Luffy beat his opponents down with a shit ton of punches/kicks.



Since Ennies Lobby.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> In terms of feats. Here you go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





When Luffy gets serious he can injure DD. Zoro hasn't shown a single feat that puts his DC on DD's durability range.

Luffy is much more powerful than Zoro by feats, his feats are fighting DD, Zoro doesn't have a single feat that compares to that.


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## Dellinger (Apr 11, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> And why did luffy not fight monet.
> 
> Oh yea he couldn't get out of her igloo



Because he is an idiot and PIS.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 11, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Since Ennies Lobby.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea nothing you said refutes what I stated.

I can make random statements without any evidence to back it up as well.

How about you provide some evidence of Doflamingo's durability that is so great that he can tank all of Zoro's attacks. Because I can post panels of Doflamingo being hurt by Luffy's lower end attacks, and Doflamingo's haki being to weak to stop himself from getting cut by grabbing laws sword.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Apr 11, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yea nothing you said refutes what I stated.
> 
> I can make random statements without any evidence to back it up as well.
> 
> How about you provide some evidence of Doflamingo's durability that is so great that he can tank all of Zoro's attacks. Because I can post panels of Doflamingo being hurt by Luffy's lower end attacks, and Doflamingo's haki being to weak to stop himself from getting cut by grabbing laws sword.



Are you serious?
You are really saying that I have to proof that DD can dodge or endure Zoro's attacks instead of you proving that he can aim or damage someone of DD's powerlevel? 

Now Zoro is admiral level or something? If not you are the one that has to prove that Zoro has what he needs to aim and injure DD.


----------



## Venom (Apr 11, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I sorta got that, but Zoro's displayed his strongest Itto/Santoryu moves in his arsenal. Ashura and any new move nonwithstanding, we've seen his whole arsenal pretty much (Iai Slash, 3, 000 Worlds, Long range Tornado's and Strongest Flying slash).
> 
> I don't think Zoro has any moveset advantage of Luffy (besides what Corus said about attack deployment time) other than the whole slice vs blunt debate. I think Zoro's biggest advantage over Luffy is his mindset. He's animalistic and agressive, but usually not to the point where it clouds his judgment. Zoro is usually clearheaded to boot which makes his battle awareness pretty good (outside of tactics).
> 
> ...



We have seen a few strong attacks that's true. But we haven't seen anyone noteworthy which were hit by these attacks. That's the big difference. The only one was Fujitora and he commented on Zoro's strong attack.

If Luffy now is able to beat Zoro or any other character on that level with just his G2 and G3 it would kinda fuck up the power scale and I think even you would agree with me on that.
I expect a maaaaajor boost with G4 so when a serious Luffy restricted to his G2 and 3 is able to beat a Zoro I don't wanna know what a G4 will do.
Maybe mid diff?
And you literally couldn't blame people for thinking that Luffy can actually low diff Sanji after this.
Though I am just speculating here of course as we don't know what G4 is.


----------



## Tenma (Apr 11, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> No he doesn't get low-diffed.There's no way G4 turns a low diff fight to win for Luffy.
> Luffy would by lying dead by now if he could low diff him.The fight is a solid high diff and G4 will propably give Luffy the win.
> 
> 
> ...



G4 Luffy _is still Luffy_. Which means even with G4 he'd still need high diff for Zoro. It's like saying 'with one sword Zoro would high diff Sanji even though by extension Ashura Zoro low diffs him, M3 dynamic is still intact'. It just doesn't work. For Luffy to have to hold back immensely and still defeat Zoro and Sanji turns the dynamic into a joke.

And DD vs Luffy is in no way a high diff. DD is not taking the fight seriously and is dominating. High diff means Doffy wouldn't be smiling and kicking Luffy around like a baseball while no selling his attacks.

Noone thinks G4-less Luffy would mid diff Zoro. But thinking G4-less Luffy beats Zoro at all is tantamount to thinking G4 Luffy would low or mid diff Zoro at this stage, which means he might as well be on an entirely different level. G4-less current Luffy doesn't exist. Luffy has G4 now, and not using it and still beating Zoro means he is capable of defeating Zoro without using remotely his full strength.


----------



## Tenma (Apr 11, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Are you serious?
> You are really saying that I have to proof that DD can dodge or endure Zoro's attacks instead of you proving that he can aim or damage someone of DD's powerlevel?
> 
> Now Zoro is admiral level or something? If not you are the one that has to prove that Zoro has what he needs to aim and injure DD.



Zoro being capable of damaging DD means he's admiral level now?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Apr 11, 2015)

Luffy doesnt even need G3 to beat Zoro from what we have seen, yet G4.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 11, 2015)

With g4 and possibly extreme-diffing Doflamingo right now, I'd say that Luffy can beat Zoro with very high-diff and not extreme-diff anymore.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 11, 2015)

Tenma said:


> G4 Luffy _is still Luffy_. Which means even with G4 he'd still need high diff for Zoro. It's like saying 'with one sword Zoro would high diff Sanji even though by extension Ashura Zoro low diffs him, M3 dynamic is still intact'. It just doesn't work. For Luffy to have to hold back immensely and still defeat Zoro and Sanji turns the dynamic into a joke.
> 
> And DD vs Luffy is in no way a high diff. DD is not taking the fight seriously and is dominating. High diff means Doffy wouldn't be smiling and kicking Luffy around like a baseball while no selling his attacks.
> 
> Noone thinks G4-less Luffy would mid diff Zoro. But thinking G4-less Luffy beats Zoro at all is tantamount to thinking G4 Luffy would low or mid diff Zoro at this stage, which means he might as well be on an entirely different level. G4-less current Luffy doesn't exist. Luffy has G4 now, and not using it and still beating Zoro means he is capable of defeating Zoro without using remotely his full strength.



Ofc it exists..G4 luffy is just a speculation
Current Luffy is G4-less Luffy and current Zoro is the Pica buster one not some hypothetical Asura/secret tech or anything.

Simple things: Luffy very high diffs Zoro.
Zoro wouldn't beat Luffy before this chapter and he still can't.Nothing changed in that matter other than the fact that Luffy got a powerup.Zoro'/Sanji's strenght didn't magically go up just cause Luffy got a new gear.


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## Tenma (Apr 11, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Ofc it exists..G4 luffy is just a speculation
> Current Luffy is G4-less Luffy and current Zoro is the Pica buster one not some hypothetical Asura/secret tech or anything.
> 
> Simple things: Luffy very high diffs Zoro.
> Zoro wouldn't beat Luffy before this chapter and he still can't.Nothing changed in that matter other than the fact that Luffy got a powerup.Zoro'/Sanji's strenght didn't magically go up just cause Luffy got a new gear.



Current Luffy _has_ G4. He just hasn't chosen to use it. Just like Zoro doesn't use Asura or Sanzen Sekai in every single fight.

Luffy didn't just get a new gear in the last 5 seconds or something. He's had it at least since the beginning of the NW and has simply chosen to withhold from using it because 3/4 of his opponents are pretty weak anyway/do not require G4. Same reason why Zoro has been witholding Ashura up till this point. But the simple fact remains that Luffy has been holding back his true strength, and if Zoro and Sanji are still in his league, he will need his full power to beat them. You can't say that G4 doesn't count because Luffy hasn't used it, that is asinine. All that shows is that noone so far has been strong enough for Luffy to go all out except for obviously DD, and Zoro and Sanji aren;t opponents he can beat without going all out.

And never in One Piece has Luffy ever been able to defeat Zoro without using his full strength, and that will never change. He's not going to beat him while half-assing with G2 which is (assuming G4 can defeat Doffy) less than half his full power, that's for sure.

When Luffy reveals G4 next chapter and it is no longer 'hypothetical', he will still need high diff for Zoro and Sanji.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 11, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Zoro being capable of damaging DD now?



Corrected 

Zoro is nowhere near DD's level. Luffy is near it.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 11, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Current Luffy _has_ G4. He just hasn't chosen to use it. Just like Zoro doesn't use Asura or Sanzen Sekai in every single fight.
> 
> Luffy didn't just get a new gear in the last 5 seconds or something. He's had it at least since the beginning of the NW and has simply chosen to withhold from using it because 3/4 of his opponents are pretty weak anyway/do not require G4. Same reason why Zoro has been witholding Ashura up till this point. But the simple fact remains that Luffy has been holding back his true strength, and if Zoro and Sanji are still in his league, he will need his full power to beat them. You can't say that G4 doesn't count because Luffy hasn't used it, that is asinine. All that shows is that noone so far has been strong enough for Luffy to go all out except for obviously DD, and Zoro and Sanji aren;t opponents he can beat without going all out.
> 
> ...



No there's nothing that suggests G4 is needed for Zoro/Sanji.
This move is for DD level fighters and there's nothing that suggest those 2 are at that level.G2&G3 is enough.
Luffy would need to go all out with G2/G3 to beat Zoro.G4 will propably just make it easier for Luffy(unless it's a move specifically for DD which i doubt).


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 11, 2015)

^That has never been the case this entire manga.

I doubt it's going to be the case now.


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## Dellinger (Apr 11, 2015)

Tenma said:


> G4 Luffy _is still Luffy_. Which means even with G4 he'd still need high diff for Zoro. It's like saying 'with one sword Zoro would high diff Sanji even though by extension Ashura Zoro low diffs him, M3 dynamic is still intact'. It just doesn't work. For Luffy to have to hold back immensely and still defeat Zoro and Sanji turns the dynamic into a joke.
> 
> And DD vs Luffy is in no way a high diff. DD is not taking the fight seriously and is dominating. High diff means Doffy wouldn't be smiling and kicking Luffy around like a baseball while no selling his attacks.
> 
> Noone thinks G4-less Luffy would mid diff Zoro. But thinking G4-less Luffy beats Zoro at all is tantamount to thinking G4 Luffy would low or mid diff Zoro at this stage, which means he might as well be on an entirely different level. G4-less current Luffy doesn't exist. Luffy has G4 now, and not using it and still beating Zoro means he is capable of defeating Zoro without using remotely his full strength.



Doflamingo is not taking his fight against Luffy seriously?Are you for real?Doflamingo seems more serious than ever combat wise.


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## King plasma (Apr 11, 2015)

Does making fun and cracking jokes count as being serious now? Theirs a reason why Luffy needs G4. That's the only way Doffy is getting serious.


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## Dellinger (Apr 11, 2015)

That's Doflamingo's character.He is fighting more fiercely than he ever was.


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## ScottofFury (Apr 11, 2015)

Going by PT, I would say Zoro 

His fighting styles is very effective against plus having equal if not superior strength


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## Dunno (Apr 11, 2015)

Ok, I answered to this thread without reading the latest chapter, which is why my earlier post is totally wrong. Zoro would obviously defeat Luffy without G4. His feats and portrayal are much better and now that Luffy has G4, you Zoro haters don't even have Shounen Logic on your side in this debate. Luffy would probably be able to extreme diff Zoro with G4, and lose with high diff or so without.


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## batman22wins (Apr 11, 2015)

None of Luffy G3 attacks are landing on Zoro. Also Zoro is not slow. He would of gotten blitzed by fuji if that was true. Zoro attacks speed is top notch. You guys keep claiming G4less Luffy can beat Zoro when Zoro has shown the same power output(if not more) has Luffy.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Apr 11, 2015)

Tenma said:


> And never in One Piece has Luffy ever been able to defeat Zoro without using his full strength, and that will never change.


_
Would it have been unthinkable for Luffy to defeat Zoro with just his G2 during Enies Lobby ?
_


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 11, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Would it have been unthinkable for Luffy to defeat Zoro with just his G2 during Enies Lobby ?
> _


I think that depends more or less on whether or not you think Zoro's durability increased at all from between the time from Enies Lobbies to Thriller Bark.

Because I don't see TB Zoro going down without Luffy having too use multiple Gear 3rd attacks on Zoro.


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## Quuon (Apr 11, 2015)

Extreme-difficulty win for Luffy... like always.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Apr 11, 2015)

Thdyingbreed said:


> I think that depends more or less on whether or not you think Zoro's durability increased at all from between the time from Enies Lobbies to Thriller Bark.
> 
> Because I don't see TB Zoro going down without Luffy having too use multiple Gear 3rd attacks on Zoro.


_
Luffy hit Lucci with a single G3 attack through their entire fight for as much as i can remember. He used G2 for the most part and the finisher was a G2 technique. Would Zoro fare that much better than the man Luffy feared would kill his entire crew if he doesn't stop him ? At the end of TB Zoro took the damage sustained by Luffy upon himself, but that does not mean that he could have survived the attacks Luffy took if aimed at his own body. He is not rubber so he would have probably died a couple of times, especially if crushed by Moria's island splitter attack. I don't think he had the durability required to simply brush off G2 attacks and claim that only Luffy's G3 would be effective._


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 11, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _
> Luffy hit Lucci with a single G3 attack through their entire fight for as much as i can remember. He used G2 for the most part and the finisher was a G2 technique. Would Zoro fare that much better than the man Luffy feared would kill his entire crew if he doesn't stop him ? At the end of TB Zoro took the damage sustained by Luffy upon himself, but that does not mean that he could have survived the attacks Luffy took if aimed at his own body. He is not rubber so he would have probably died a couple of times, especially if crushed by Moria's island splitter attack. I don't think he had the durability required to simply brush off G2 attacks and claim that only Luffy's G3 would be effective._


You misunderstand what I'm saying I'm not trying to claim that Zoro would brush off Luffy's gear 2nd attacks just that it's going too take his gear 3rd attacks too finish him off because Zoro's insanely durable.

As prior to taking Luffy's pain Zoro tanked multiple attacks from Oars during Thriller Bark which are basically equivalent too Luffy's gear third attacks and he was one of the few people who wasn't knocked out by Kuma's Ursus Shock Zoro's durability is pretty ridiculous.

Also Luffy only survived that island splitter because he was a rubberman let's not confuse Luffy's blunt force immunity with his regular durability Luffy would of died from the island splitter if Moria had haki.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Apr 11, 2015)

Thdyingbreed said:


> You misunderstand what I'm saying I'm not trying to claim that Zoro would brush off Luffy's gear 2nd attacks just that it's going too take his gear 3rd attacks too finish him off because Zoro's insanely durable.
> 
> As prior to taking Luffy's pain Zoro tanked multiple attacks from Oars during Thriller Bark which are basically equivalent too Luffy's gear third attacks and he was one of the few people who wasn't knocked out by Kuma's Ursus Shock Zoro's durability is pretty ridiculous.
> 
> Also Luffy only survived that island splitter because he was a rubberman let's no confuse Luffy's blunt force immunity with his regular durability Luffy would of died from the island splitter if Moria had haki.




_He wasn't the only SH to be hit by Oars so you are to some extent overselling his durability. You also might be confusing durability with his ability to continue fighting even after sustaining great amount of damage, which is something entirely different. And i would agree with that, Zoro can take a beating and it would take a while before G2 attacks put him down for good, but of course that's not endless and his own fighting ability would be affected as the damage is stacking. EL G2 Luffy simply seems too fast for Zoro to properly fight against, and it appears to be effective enough considering the work it did on Lucci to eventually put Zoro down._


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 11, 2015)

all evidence solidly points to Zoro defeating pre-G4 Luffy with high diff

anything speculation on G4 is just that, speculation

There is no guarantee that G4 will even make Luffy = to Zoro, nevermind stronger


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## Kai (Apr 11, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> all evidence solidly points to Zoro defeating pre-G4 Luffy with high diff
> 
> anything speculation on G4 is just that, speculation
> 
> There is no guarantee that G4 will even make Luffy = to Zoro, nevermind stronger


The delusion's strength is unreal in this one


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 11, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _He wasn't the only SH to be hit by Oars so you are to some extent overselling his durability. You also might be confusing durability with his ability to continue fighting even after sustaining great amount of damage, which is something entirely different. And i would agree with that, Zoro can take a beating and it would take a while before G2 attacks put him down for good, but of course that's not endless and his own fighting ability would be affected as the damage is stacking._


Aside from the Monster Trio the only SH I recall taking a full on hit from Oars was Franky and I think it would be expected from the middle trio that they can at least tank one gear third attack and Zoro was the only one who got up from Urus Shock right away and was still able to fight while Sanji got up later on he was clearly unable to fight any further.

Endurance/Durability fall under the same umbrella but I would consider the cut off point to be when a fighter becomes injured to the point where they can no longer move anymore and Zoro only reached that point after taking in the little sliver of Luffy's pain because after that he was unable to move.


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## Tenma (Apr 11, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> No there's nothing that suggests G4 is needed for Zoro/Sanji.
> This move is for DD level fighters and there's nothing that suggest those 2 are at that level.G2&G3 is enough.
> Luffy would need to go all out with G2/G3 to beat Zoro.G4 will propably just make it easier for Luffy(unless it's a move specifically for DD which i doubt).



So in short you feel Luffy is an entirely different league from Zoro/Sanji and he only needs to use 50% to beat them. Right.

M3 dynamic is a joke if Luffy needs to use only half his power to beat Zoro and Sanji.



> Would it have been unthinkable for Luffy to defeat Zoro with just his G2 during Enies Lobby ?



G3 wouldn't be very useful against Zoro given Base Lucci was making a mockery out of it, and it's basically a suicide tactic considering he turns chibi after a few swings.

So technically while G2 Luffy could beat Zoro, it's not like G3 makes it any easier, and could even fuck over Luffy like it nearly did against Lucci.



> Doflamingo is not taking his fight against Luffy seriously?Are you for real?Doflamingo seems more serious than ever combat wise



He's barely even using string powers and is just kicking Luffy around and giving him time to recover while monologuing.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 12, 2015)

*Luffy's high end move (Grizzly Magnum) only managed to crack Pica's head
A comparable move from Zoro (1080p cannon) split Pica's entire torso in half*

*Also G3 sacrifices speed, as explained this chapter, but Zoro's attacks do not have such a drawback*

Luffy's high end move (Grizzly Magnum) only managed to crack Pica's head
A comparable move from Zoro (1080p cannon) split Pica's entire torso in half

Also G3 sacrifices speed, as explained this chapter, but Zoro's attacks do not have such a drawback. And we've already seen that if Luffy sacrifices power for speed and uses G2, he can't do shit either:

G2 gatling with haki = no effect on Monet's igloo
Zoro beat Monet with his presence alone

G2 jet pistol = countered by base Hyouzou
Super-saiyan Hyouzou couldn't even kill Zoro's boredom

G2 = does nothing against PH Dragon
Zoro 1shots it with a basic move

G2 hardened haki hawk rifle = bounces off Chinjao's belly



*truly pathetic how Zoro-haters refuse to ackowledge the truth:
G2 is too weak and G3 is too slow

If G4 is indeed a blend of G2+G3, then it will only give Luffy what Zoro already has: a combination of speed and power*


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## Sir Curlyhat (Apr 12, 2015)

Tenma said:


> G3 wouldn't be very useful against Zoro given Base Lucci was making a mockery out of it, and it's basically a suicide tactic considering he turns chibi after a few swings.
> 
> So technically while G2 Luffy could beat Zoro, it's not like G3 makes it any easier, and could even fuck over Luffy like it nearly did against Lucci.



_It's an interesting opinion seeing how we have someone else arguing that G3 would have been an absolute must, while you acknowledge that there's not a relation of superiority between gears but each of them act as separate tools that can be more or less adequate depending on what you're up against. And i am more inclined to agree with that. I don't agree entirely with your post because i don't believe Zoro was nearly as evasive as Lucci so i think Luffy would be able to land G3 attacks on him eventually, but that's more about this particular match-up and his fight with Lucci showcased G2 as being the better answer to his opponents combat ability at the time.

Now, with that in mind, is it preposterous to think that the current G2 + G3 Luffy has the right answers to fight Zoro ? Luffy can keep up with Doflamingo with his G2 and the power behind his G3 was never questioned. Can we really put Zoro in Doflamingo's shoes and argue that it's obvious that if Luffy needs his G4 to connect his attacks with Doflamingo and do meaningful damange, the same would be the case with Roronoa ? We are talking about a Doflamingo that handled Smoker, Sanji and Law without feeling seriously threatened by them in a 1 vs 1, is Luffy really doing worse than these three who should all be M3 level fighters ? Could we argue that Zoro would be able to harden his body and take Luffy's G2 attacks with the same ease as Doflamingo when we don't even have a single example of him actually hardening his body, not to mention one of him actually blocking any attack of any relevance in that manner ?

 I'm questioning a lot here because there's a lot to be questioned. I would not argue that Luffy 100% defeats Zoro without his G4, i think that's too early to tell and i don't see how anyone could be certain that's the case, just as i don't see why anyone would be certain that Zoro takes it unless Luffy uses the Gear that we have yet to even see in action._


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## Esdese (Apr 12, 2015)

Zoro haters gonna hate
as it stands Zoro would make short work of Luffy


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## Bernkastel (Apr 12, 2015)

Tenma said:


> So in short you feel Luffy is an entirely different league from Zoro/Sanji and he only needs to use 50% to beat them. Right.
> 
> M3 dynamic is a joke if Luffy needs to use only half his power to beat Zoro and Sanji.



G2/G3 going all out isn't half his power.M3 dynamic is a joke when people say Zoro would mid-diff Sanji or that Zoro would make short work of Luffy...Me saying Luffy would need very high diff for Zoro and high(low) with G4 is nothing extreme.
Yeah Zoro/Sanji will be left behind for a while(Zoro not by that much) untill they show something to rival Luffy's new gear..to me trying to magically power up Zoro just to keep their strength close as M3 members is a joke and blatant wanking.
Zoro with his current feats simply can't push Luffy(w/G4) to more than high(low).
DD will get extreme diffed propably and since Zoro is solidly weaker than DD he'll get high(low) diffed.



> He's barely even using string powers and is just kicking Luffy around and giving him time to recover while monologuing.



This goes both ways..if Luffy recovers while DD is monologuing the so does DD.
Though i agree that he hasn't used his full arsenal yet since for some strange reason he doesn't use Parasite.


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## Roronoa-zoro (Apr 12, 2015)

I think G2/G3 Luffy wins with extreme difficulty against current Zoro.  

As for Gear 4th, while it's still an unknown quantity, I can't imagine it beating Zoro with anything less than high difficulty imo, especially if you factor in Asura.


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## felixng2008 (Apr 12, 2015)

Based on feats Zoro with very high-extreme difficulty. 

Luffy has been very unimpressive lately.

Luffy with G4 should be stronger though and would likely win with very high difficulty. Don't think Luffy even with G4 is Doffy level yet, he is facing Doffy with his internals fucked up.


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## Tenma (Apr 12, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> G2/G3 going all out isn't half his power.M3 dynamic is a joke when people say Zoro would mid-diff Sanji or that Zoro would make short work of Luffy...Me saying Luffy would need very high diff for Zoro and high(low) with G4 is nothing extreme.
> Yeah Zoro/Sanji will be left behind for a while(Zoro not by that much) untill they show something to rival Luffy's new gear..to me trying to magically power up Zoro just to keep their strength close as M3 members is a joke and blatant wanking.
> Zoro with his current feats simply can't push Luffy(w/G4) to more than high(low).
> DD will get extreme diffed propably and since Zoro is solidly weaker than DD he'll get high(low) diffed.



You think? By your power estimation if G4 Luffy can extreme diff DD then DD should be having solid high difficulty with Luffy. Yet that obviously isn't happening. He is low diffing Luffy, low-mid at the worst. DD is obviously significantly superior, which shouldn't be the case with any high diff fight. This idea that G4-less Luffy can mid-high diff Zoro while G4 Luffy needs low-high diff is retarded, if the power increase is that negligible DD would still wipe the floor with him G4 or not. Only a Luffy wanker will say DD isn't kicking Luffy's ass. The idea that G4 is this tiny ass power boost is dumb as hell anyway, would G2 Luffy need mid-high diff fr opponents Base Luffy can low-high diff? Come on now.

And noone is magically powering up Zoro here, you saw the _colossal_ power boost Asura gave Zoro in EL and unless you somehow believe he lost the technique it obviously presents a massive powerup for Zoro. You know Zoro hasn't gone remotely all out, noone has even killed his boredom so far. Stop being a featfag and look at things rationally. Zoro has Ashura and if it gave him the ability to go from being schooled by Kaku to oneshotting him inagine how much the boost will be now since he obviously will have more sophistication and techniques with Ashura just like Sanji did with DJ, and Luffy did with G2 and G3.

Not to mention, even going by current feats Zoro has outpaced G2/G3 Luffy every step of the way. Only a true Luffy wanker will go full-apologist mode with regards to their comparative performances against Hyouzou and Monet when Zoro obviously fared better in both fights.



> This goes both ways..if Luffy recovers while DD is monologuing the so does DD.
> Though i agree that he hasn't used his full arsenal yet since for some strange reason he doesn't use Parasite.



Um, when DD knocks Luffy flat on his ass and starts bragging, it is Luffy who is recovering not DD. Which is more or less what happened when Luffy got the shit kicked out of him last issue and DD went on about how he would kill babies and old people.

Every exchange between Luffy and DD has ended with DD kicking the shit out of him and then stopping to brag because Luffy really isn't worth his time currently.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 12, 2015)

Tenma said:


> You think? By your power estimation if G4 Luffy can extreme diff DD then DD should be having solid high difficulty with Luffy. Yet that obviously isn't happening. He is low diffing Luffy, low-mid at the worst. DD is obviously significantly superior, which shouldn't be the case with any high diff fight. This idea that G4-less Luffy can mid-high diff Zoro while G4 Luffy needs low-high diff is retarded, if the power increase is that negligible DD would still wipe the floor with him G4 or not. Only a Luffy wanker will say DD isn't kicking Luffy's ass. The idea that G4 is this tiny ass power boost is dumb as hell anyway, would G2 Luffy need mid-high diff fr opponents Base Luffy can low-high diff? Come on now.
> 
> And noone is magically powering up Zoro here, you saw the _colossal_ power boost Asura gave Zoro in EL and unless you somehow believe he lost the technique it obviously presents a massive powerup for Zoro. You know Zoro hasn't gone remotely all out, noone has even killed his boredom so far. Stop being a featfag and look at things rationally. Zoro has Ashura and if it gave him the ability to go from being schooled by Kaku to oneshotting him inagine how much the boost will be now since he obviously will have more sophistication and techniques with Ashura just like Sanji did with DJ, and Luffy did with G2 and G3.
> 
> Not to mention, even going by current feats Zoro has outpaced G2/G3 Luffy every step of the way. Only a true Luffy wanker will go full-apologist mode with regards to their comparative performances against Hyouzou and Monet when Zoro obviously fared better in both fights.



First of all i'm not a Luffy wanker.I don't even like him that much.
Zoro was serious while Luffy was goofing around with Monet.If you really think Luffy can't oneshot Monet then u are ignorant.Same goes for Hyouzou. 
Also i said very high not high(mid).[high(mid)->very high->extreme is how i rank diff]
And seriously DD isn't low diffing Luffy.Yeah he is stronger but not that much.The fight is high diff.
Low diff means DD can one-shot him.Like Zoro did to Pica when he caught him.
Luffy took many attacks from DD and is still standing just fine.He is even going to unleash a G4



> Um, when DD knocks Luffy flat on his ass and starts bragging, it is Luffy who is recovering not DD. Which is more or less what happened when Luffy got the shit kicked out of him last issue and DD went on about how he would kill babies and old people.
> 
> Every exchange between Luffy and DD has ended with DD kicking the shit out of him and then stopping to brag because Luffy really isn't worth his time currently.



You proapbly missed those panels where Luffy punched and kicked DD too more than once.Yeah DD is stronger but Luffy is doing just fine against him.Both Luffy and DD are covered in blood and bruises i seriously don't get how you see their fight as DD low diffing him.


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## barreltheif (Apr 12, 2015)

Roronoa-zoro said:


> I think G2/G3 Luffy wins with extreme difficulty against current Zoro.
> 
> As for Gear 4th, while it's still an unknown quantity, I can't imagine it beating Zoro with anything less than high difficulty imo, especially if you factor in Asura.




This makes no sense. G2/G3 Luffy extreme diffs Zoro, but G4 Luffy beats him with at least high diff?
That's basically saying that G4 is only a tiny powerup. It's obviously going to be a really major powerup. G2 let Luffy stomp Blueno, when he was previously high diffing him.

My guess is this. Zoro mid-high diffs G2/G3 Luffy. Unrestricted Luffy high diffs Zoro.


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## Roronoa-zoro (Apr 12, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> This makes no sense. G2/G3 Luffy extreme diffs Zoro, but G4 Luffy beats him with at least high diff?



I meant current Zoro without Asura.


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## Sauce (Apr 12, 2015)

Draw. Zoro and Luffy can take a beaten. They'll eventually tire themselves out.


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## StrawHat4Life (Apr 12, 2015)

Even without the G4 reveal I'd still give this to Luffy with extreme difficulty. G2 gives Luffy the necessary speed and mobility to avoid the brunt of Zoro's slashes, and the offensive force of G3 will push Zoro's endurance to its limits.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 12, 2015)

StrawHat4Life said:


> Even without the G4 reveal I'd still give this to Luffy with extreme difficulty. G2 gives Luffy the necessary speed and mobility to avoid the brunt of Zoro's slashes, and the offensive force of G3 will push Zoro's endurance to its limits.



it works the other way too

G3 is too slow to ever hit Zoro
G2 is too weak to do material damage


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## Dellinger (Apr 12, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> it works the other way too
> 
> G3 is too slow to ever hit Zoro
> G2 is too weak to do material damage



Zoro is not Doflamingo.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Still waiting for the feats that show that Zoro can even aim at DD.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 13, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> it works the other way too
> 
> G3 is too slow to ever hit Zoro
> G2 is too weak to do material damage



So G2 attacks now cant even damage Zoro ? the same G2 attacks that even DD could't take unscathed?


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## Tenma (Apr 13, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> First of all i'm not a Luffy wanker.I don't even like him that much.
> Zoro was serious while Luffy was goofing around with Monet.If you really think Luffy can't oneshot Monet then u are ignorant.Same goes for Hyouzou.
> Also i said very high not high(mid).[high(mid)->very high->extreme is how i rank diff]
> And seriously DD isn't low diffing Luffy.Yeah he is stronger but not that much.The fight is high diff.
> ...



Zoro was looking for a warm up against a much stronger Hyouzou and was only trying to scare Monet. He wasn't serious either.

Luffy was not goofing around against either Monet or Hyouzou, I'm not sure where you got that from. Of course a bloodlusted Luffy could oneshot both of them but the portrayal is clear. Only a Luffy apologist would try to  say Luffy's performance was somehow better than Zoro.

Low-diff isn't one shot. That is what we call a stomp.

And I don't think you understand what high diff is. Getting kicked around and surviving isn't high diff. Something like Luffy vs Croc, Sanji vs Bon Clay, Zoro vs Ryuma or Kaku is high diff where both parties are struggling for their lives and pushed to their limits. If you think DD vs Luffy is high diff, I fear for what you think your 'high diff' Luffy vs Zoro is.



> You proapbly missed those panels where Luffy punched and kicked DD too more than once.Yeah DD is stronger but Luffy is doing just fine against him.Both Luffy and DD are covered in blood and bruises i seriously don't get how you see their fight as DD low diffing him.



DD is covered with blood and bruises because, you know, he got his organs busted and spat out a good deal of blood, and got burnt with a countershock, and both Luffy and Law nailed him with a good number of free shots beforehand, hence him looking worn. Luffy landed two hits on DD which he ignored before the latter decided to get serious and promptly owned Luffy and sent him flying again despite the latter blocking with Haki. The recent issue is just DD kicking Luffy around like a football while no selling his attacks.

DD is clearly far superior to Luffy. A high diff fight won't have someone looking so obviously superior throughout the entire fight. At any point did you honestly believe Luffy had any chance of beating DD?


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## Raiden34 (Apr 13, 2015)

Still Luffy even without G4.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 13, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Zoro was looking for a warm up against a much stronger Hyouzou and was only trying to scare Monet. He wasn't serious either.



Zoro is in serious mode since post skip.



> Luffy was not goofing around against either Monet or Hyouzou, I'm not sure where you got that from. Of course a bloodlusted Luffy could oneshot both of them but the portrayal is clear. Only a Luffy apologist would try to  say Luffy's performance was somehow better than Zoro.



And Zoro got one-shot by Yeti bros,so what?..Luffy would one shot each of them the same way Zoro did.There's nothing about better portrayal in the Monet/Hyouzo isntances..Zoro was emitting bloodlust against Monet and that's why she was scared shitless and i'm pretty a CoC user like Luffy would do the same against her if he was in the slightest serious.



> Low-diff isn't one shot. That is what we call a stomp.
> 
> And I don't think you understand what high diff is. Getting kicked around and surviving isn't high diff. Something like Luffy vs Croc, Sanji vs Bon Clay, Zoro vs Ryuma or Kaku is high diff where both parties are struggling for their lives and pushed to their limits. If you think DD vs Luffy is high diff, I fear for what you think your 'high diff' Luffy vs Zoro is.



Stomp is when someone can't even act/touch his opponent and gets one-shot.(Boa vs NW fodders)
Low diff is when someone puts up a pointless/tiny struggle but is still one shot.(Pica vs Zoro)

If you think Luffy is giving the same diff Pica gave to Zoro then you're ignoring basic facts..To say Luffy is getting low-diffed by DD is blatant wank.
DD is landing hits and so does Luffy.It's just that DD is overall faster/stronger and thats why he's always on the winnin end..Luffy though is tanking pretty well seeing the state he is in and is holding just fine.As i said before there's no way G4 turns a low-diff fight to a win for Luffy.Cause if that's the case then Zoro gets low-diffed by G4 which is absurd.G4 will just fill the gap of Luffy and DD's strength.



> DD is covered with blood and bruises because, you know, he got his organs busted and spat out a good deal of blood, and got burnt with a countershock, and both Luffy and Law nailed him with a good number of free shots beforehand, hence him looking worn. Luffy landed two hits on DD which he ignored before the latter decided to get serious and promptly owned Luffy and sent him flying again despite the latter blocking with Haki. The recent issue is just DD kicking Luffy around like a football while no selling his attacks.



A single RH made DD spit blood.DD's kick still haven't managed to put Luffy down or even close to being exhausted.He is doing just fine.You keep saying he's kicked around like a football etc but all i see is Luffy still standing there ready to unleash G4 without issues or grave injuries.



> DD is clearly far superior to Luffy. A high diff fight won't have someone looking so obviously superior throughout the entire fight. At any point did you honestly believe Luffy had any chance of beating DD?



Superior yes..far superior no.With only his current showings of G2/G3 moves no i didn't think he could win but i knew he had smth up his sleeve.Still that doesn't change the fact that it was a high diff fight.To be spcific a high(low) diff fight.


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## Tenma (Apr 13, 2015)

> Zoro is in serious mode since post skip.



He was blatantly holding back against Monet. He obviously had reservations against hitting women as well as harming Tashigi's pride and just wanted to scare her.

As for Hyouzou...dude, although Zoro would have gotten serious if Hyouzou was stronger, he was_ stopping to chat with Chopper in the middle of the fight_, something Hyouzou took offense to, and was blatantly not taking him seriously to the point where he said Hyouzou couldn't even warm him up.



> And Zoro got one-shot by Yeti bros,so what?..Luffy would one shot each of them the same way Zoro did.There's nothing about better portrayal in the Monet/Hyouzo isntances..Zoro was emitting bloodlust against Monet and that's why she was scared shitless and i'm pretty a CoC user like Luffy would do the same against her if he was in the slightest serious.



'Cause sleeping gas.

There is a reason why Oda has refused to have Zoro really struggle in a proper battle of strength and abilities, even against what was portrayed to be the strongest Seat who noone else on the island save Luffy/Law could beat.

But really it's not that difficult to admit Zoro did blatantly better against Monet and Hyouzou, although neither Zoro or Luffy went all out in either scenario. It's right there. And the way you talk about Luffy being non-serious one would think he was laughing and eating his lunch in the fight or something. He wasn't 100% serious but he wasn't kidding around either.

Stomp is when someone can't even act/touch his opponent and gets one-shot.(Boa vs NW fodders)
Low diff is when someone puts up a pointless/tiny struggle but is still one shot.(Pica vs Zoro)



> If you think Luffy is giving the same diff Pica gave to Zoro then you're ignoring basic facts..To say Luffy is getting low-diffed by DD is blatant wank.
> DD is landing hits and so does Luffy.It's just that DD is overall faster/stronger and thats why he's always on the winnin end..Luffy though is tanking pretty well seeing the state he is in and is holding just fine.As i said before there's no way G4 turns a low-diff fight to a win for Luffy.Cause if that's the case then Zoro gets low-diffed by G4 which is absurd.G4 will just fill the gap of Luffy and DD's strength.



Well, given we both agree that DD is significantly superior in every stat and has broken af fruit abilities, we can come to a compromise and say mid-diff (I'd lean low-mid given the fight is largely looking like Luffy vs Chinjao). Which still means that Zoro should high-diff G2 Luffy like I have been saying from the start.



> A single RH made DD spit blood.DD's kick still haven't managed to put Luffy down or even close to being exhausted.He is doing just fine.You keep saying he's kicked around like a football etc but all i see is Luffy still standing there ready to unleash G4 without issues or grave injuries.



He was kicked around by a football and isn't critically hurt (no shit, DD's not going to kill him with kicks) but let's not kid yourself with this high diff bullshit. Luffy is surviving. He's not fighting as an equal as a high diff fight would entail. DD is superior in every stat and not by a small amount. The way you are intepreting the fight still means Luffy is putting up a mid-diff fight, that's all. Let's not demean what high diff is.

Red Hawk made him spit blood, but that's like Luffy's top G2 move and DD was caught by surprise thanks to Law's ability and hence couldn't activate Haki. 

And dude, Luffy is exhausted. DD said as much.



> Superior yes..far superior no.With only his current showings of G2/G3 moves no i didn't think he could win but i knew he had smth up his sleeve.Still that doesn't change the fact that it was a high diff fight.To be spcific a high(low) diff fight.



Again, DD is obviously superior in every stat by a significant margin, and is holding the obvious advantage. No high diff fight has one party looking so obviously superior throughout the whole fight.

There was never any moment in the fight where it felt DD was in danger of losing. It is not high diff.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 13, 2015)

Tenma said:


> He was blatantly holding back against Monet. He obviously had reservations against hitting women as well as harming Tashigi's pride and just wanted to scare her.
> 
> As for Hyouzou...dude, although Zoro would have gotten serious if Hyouzou was stronger, he was_ stopping to chat with Chopper in the middle of the fight_, something Hyouzou took offense to, and was blatantly not taking him seriously to the point where he said Hyouzou couldn't even warm him up.



So what? Do you mean to tell me that Luffy would have problems with Hyouzo?Lufy's character is goofy by default while Zoro's isn't.
As for Monet she was scared by his bloodlust and zoro's nature of a wild beast or some shit like that.I'm not sure what was that whole thing about Zoro's aura but it might've been some hint of him having CoC.Point is Luffy could do the same if he wanted to with his CoC/bloodlust.





> 'Cause sleeping gas.



Cause Luffy was goofing around.

There's always a reason/excuse and i know why Zoro lost but same goes for Luffy.Luffy would trash Monet/Pica/Hyouzo anytime soon just like Zoro did.As i said there's nothing that puts Zoro above Luffy in those instances.



> There is a reason why Oda has refused to have Zoro really struggle in a proper battle of strength and abilities, even against what was portrayed to be the strongest Seat who noone else on the island save Luffy/Law could beat.



Luffy will always struggle more as a MC.Especially in shonen the MC always struggles and put much effort to reach the top.Side characters are usually more "perfect".



> But really it's not that difficult to admit Zoro did blatantly better against Monet and Hyouzou, although neither Zoro or Luffy went all out in either scenario. It's right there. And the way you talk about Luffy being non-serious one would think he was laughing and eating his lunch in the fight or something. He wasn't 100% serious but he wasn't kidding around either.



Yes he did better but as i said there was a reason and that was because Luffy wasn't 100% serious.
You can't tell me that Zoro's attitude is the same as Guffy.Zoro was clearly emanating bloodlust and caused i disruption to Monet's logia powers.Answer me this:Would Luffy not be able to emanate bloodlust against her or CoC burst to do the same?
In the battledome both Luffy/Zoro would trash all these opponent where no PIS/CIS is included.



> Well, given we both agree that DD is significantly superior in every stat and has broken af fruit abilities, we can come to a compromise and say mid-diff (I'd lean low-mid given the fight is largely looking like Luffy vs Chinjao). Which still means that Zoro should high-diff G2 Luffy like I have been saying from the start.



No i never agreed that DD is significantly superior.he is just superior.Sorry but i just can't view their fight as mid diff.



> He was kicked around by a football and isn't critically hurt (no shit, DD's not going to kill him with kicks) but let's not kid yourself with this high diff bullshit. Luffy is surviving. He's not fighting as an equal as a high diff fight would entail. DD is superior in every stat and not by a small amount. The way you are intepreting the fight still means Luffy is putting up a mid-diff fight, that's all. Let's not demean what high diff is.



Extreme diff shows equality not high diff.
Unless you think Kizaru is equal to Marco since Marco will give him high diff.Kizaru is obviously superior but he wont beat him with less than high.
Same here..DD is obviously superior but he won't beat Luffy with less than high diff.
Also those kicks were hakified and seemed pretty strong.Taking so many of those kicks an being able to remain in that state means that he's taking them quite well.



> Red Hawk made him spit blood, but that's like Luffy's top G2 move and DD was caught by surprise thanks to Law's ability and hence couldn't activate Haki.
> 
> And dude, Luffy is exhausted. DD said as much.



Yeah he is but not even close to his limits.And DD is also exhausted though Law helped a lot for that.



> Again, DD is obviously superior in every stat by a significant margin, and is holding the obvious advantage. No high diff fight has one party looking so obviously superior throughout the whole fight.
> 
> There was never any moment in the fight where it felt DD was in danger of losing. It is not high diff.



Again not by a significant marigin.
As i said before if this is a mid diff fight which G4 turns to a win for Luffy then G4 will by extention beat Zoro with mid(low)) diff whis is absurd.There's simply no way G4 is sooo strong that mid diffs Zoro and solid low diffs Sanji.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

And where are my Zoro aiming and damaging someone of DD's level?


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## Elite Uchiha (Apr 13, 2015)

Please stop comparing feats of Zoro vs Pica to Luffy vs DD. DD is on a different level than Pica. Shit, Law would have vergo'd Pica in one hit.

Again, Luffy takes this with high (high) difficulty or extreme (low). This does not include G4.


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## Sanji (Apr 13, 2015)

Luffy high diffs.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Please stop comparing feats of Zoro vs Pica to Luffy vs DD. DD is on a different level than Pica. Shit, Law would have vergo'd Pica in one hit.
> 
> Again, Luffy takes this with high (high) difficulty or extreme (low). This does not include G4.



It would have been even easier than with Vergo. Vergo is more powerful than Pica.


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## Sauce (Apr 13, 2015)

How is Vergo more powerful than Pica? Did they have a match that I somehow missed? And if your argument is based on the positions within the Flamingo family then that's really a weak support for that argument.

A person can hold a higher position than someone else and still be weaker.

From what I've seen alone from Pica against his fight with Zoro. And I compare that to Vergo's fight with Law. Then, I will have to say anyways that Pica would have to be stronger. To be a colossal and still encase yourself in haki is more impressive than anything I've seen from Vergo.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 13, 2015)

Sauce said:


> How is Vergo more powerful than Pica? Did they have a match that I somehow missed? And if your argument is based on the positions within the Flamingo family then that's really a weak support for that argument.
> 
> A person can hold a higher position than someone else and still be weaker.
> 
> From what I've seen alone from Pica against his fight with Zoro. And I compare that to Vergo's fight with Law. Then, I will have to say anyways that Pica would have to be stronger. To be a colossal and still encase yourself in haki is more impressive than anything I've seen from Vergo.



Pica never imbued his golem with haki..only his real body.Unless by colossal you mean his real body that is simply a bit bigger than that of a normal human.


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## Captain Altintop (Apr 13, 2015)

Luffy high (high) to extreme diffs Zoro without G4.

With G4, it will be probably high (mid) diff.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 13, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> So G2 attacks now cant even damage Zoro ? the same G2 attacks that even DD could't take unscathed?



the same G2 attacks that base Hyouzo blocked 
the same G2 attacks that Monet's igloo blocked 

yes that one


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## Bernkastel (Apr 14, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> the same G2 attacks that base Hyouzo blocked
> the same G2 attacks that Monet's igloo blocked
> 
> yes that one



Whatever makes you happy..i won't bother explaining again about Hyouzo/Monet.
Yeti bros top tier btw


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Sauce said:


> How is Vergo more powerful than Pica? Did they have a match that I somehow missed? And if your argument is based on the positions within the Flamingo family then that's really a weak support for that argument.
> 
> A person can hold a higher position than someone else and still be weaker.
> 
> From what I've seen alone from Pica against his fight with Zoro. And I compare that to Vergo's fight with Law. Then, I will have to say anyways that Pica would have to be stronger. To be a colossal and still encase yourself in haki is more impressive than anything I've seen from Vergo.



Vergo could fight equally with Sanji and Smoker.

Any proof of Pica being able to fight anyone on equal ground?

Pica is a giant piece of rock, anyone who is anyone in OP breaks rocks as if It was nothing.

Pica has been in Dressrosa driking margaritas and sleeping while Vergo joined the marines and fought pirates and then even stronger pirates and he learned roukishi and got rank up till he became the head of the G5, the second most important island of the marines. Becoming the leader of many VAs.

Vergo>>Pica



HisMajestyMihawk said:


> the same G2 attacks that base Hyouzo blocked
> the same G2 attacks that Monet's igloo blocked
> 
> yes that one




No, the ones that injured DD. Has Zoro injured anyone on DD's level?


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## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Apr 14, 2015)

_Zoro wins IMO. Zoro's feats so far are more impressive than Luffy after TS. He pulled shit on Luffy's level without actually trying hard. Luffy lacks power to fight Zoro head on when he has speed and he lacks speed when he has enough power to go against Zoro's attacks head on. Where as Zoro has both fast striking rate and powerful attacks at the same time. I honestly can't see Luffy winning with g3 or g2 against Zoro._


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

So none has feats of Zoro injuring someone on DD's level? Then I guess you concede, Luffy has the better feats, he wins this.


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## Extravlad (Apr 14, 2015)

> So none has feats of Zoro injuring someone on DD's level? Then I guess you concede, Luffy has the better feats, he wins this.


He never fought someon on DD's lvl, only a guy that is WAY stronger than DD and he still pushed him back.

Anyway I don't know where you're coming from with this, Zoro has injured people that easily tanked Luffy's attacks.

Zoro's firepower > Luffy's


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> He never fought someon on DD's lvl, only a guy that is WAY stronger than DD and he still pushed him back.
> 
> Anyway I don't know where you're coming from with this, Zoro has injured people that easily tanked Luffy's attacks.
> 
> Zoro's firepower > Luffy's





You aren't talking about when Fuji casually made Zoro bleed and Zoro was barely able to move Fuji a meter and save his own life?

Luffy when serious is able to injure DD, Zoro isn't.


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## Raiden34 (Apr 14, 2015)

This should be locked. This is a complete joke. Captain vs. his underling.... Fanboys are everywhere, what's next Marco vs. Whitebeard ? Teach vs. Shiliew ?


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## Extravlad (Apr 14, 2015)

> You aren't talking about when Fuji casually made Zoro bleed and Zoro was barely able to move Fuji a meter and save his own life?


Zoro effortlessly pushed Fuji meters away with a slash that isn't even named.



> Luffy when serious is able to injure DD, Zoro isn't.


Zoro can easily injure DD, you talk out of your ass, Zoro has never fought DD.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Zoro effortlessly pushed Fuji meters away with a slash that isn't even named.




Fuji made Zoro bleed with an attack that isn't even named. Did Fuji bleed?



Extravlad said:


> Zoro can easily injure DD, you talk out of your ass, Zoro has never fought DD.



Proofs of Zoro being able to injure DD at all?


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## Raiden34 (Apr 14, 2015)

Zoro himself said against Pica that he can't cut people who has superior Haki than himself, which means he can't cut DD. Of course Zoro fanboys would claim Zoro has same or superior Haki to DD.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> Zoro himself said against Pica that he can't cut people who has superior Haki than himself, which means he can't cut DD. Of course Zoro fanboys would claim Zoro has same or superior Haki to DD.



Zoro tards think that he can defeat Fuji because he barely bleed by the attack and he was even able to barely counter it and move Fuji a meter.


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## Yuki (Apr 14, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Zoro tards think that he can defeat Fuji because he barely bleed by the attack and he was even able to barely counter it and move Fuji a meter.



Plz, that's nothing.

Half of them think Zoro did better vs Fuji than Sabo did...


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 14, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Zoro tards think that he can defeat Fuji because he barely bleed by the attack and he was even able to barely counter it and move Fuji a meter.





Erkan12 said:


> Zoro himself said against Pica that he can't cut people who has superior Haki than himself, which means he can't cut DD. Of course Zoro fanboys would claim Zoro has same or superior Haki to DD.



there is no saving these trolls 

you guys need to get a room


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

There is still no proofs that Zoro is remained equal to Luffy like he was canonically stated in the pre-timeskip! Surely they are very close AT LEAST! But we can't claim for sure they are equal!

Nothing has proved Luffy to be stronger either, for that matter!

Zoro has yet to be seen in a pinch and therefore pulling out his max power! We have seen he has amazing Busoshoku Haki being the specialist in the crew! About physical power he's probably (but not surely) equal to Luffy like he was in the past! But it's not possible to make an undeniable comparison now!

They are close as hell but stop assuming that Luffy is stronger only because he had the chance to show more or, even worse, for common-place reasons like being the Captain or such...

And before saying G4 Luffy > Zoro wait to see Advanced Ashura full Busoshoku Hardening Zoro, then we'll see...


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## Federer (Apr 27, 2015)

Luffy is the main character.

No matter how much I love Zoro, Luffy would beat him. Zoro isn't exactly his 'rival'. He doesn't have that role in the story. 

And because we have no idea how strong both of these characters really are atm, we can't exactly know the outcome for sure.


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## Roronoa-zoro (Apr 27, 2015)

Federer said:


> Luffy is the main character.
> 
> No matter how much I love Zoro, Luffy would beat him. Zoro isn't exactly his 'rival'. He doesn't have that role in the story.
> 
> And because we have no idea how strong both of these characters really are atm, we can't exactly know the outcome for sure.



I pretty much agree with Fed here.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

Federer said:


> Luffy is the main character.
> 
> No matter how much I love Zoro, Luffy would beat him. Zoro isn't exactly his 'rival'. He doesn't have that role in the story.
> 
> And because we have no idea how strong both of these characters really are atm, we can't exactly know the outcome for sure.



This is the common-place I just referred to... No matter what their roles are, actually what matters is battle power and in the post-timeskip it's not possible to tell if any of the two is stronger or if they are equal... The worst Zoro could get is to being really close anyway!

Also, Zoro is the same kind of character to Luffy as the usual "darker rivals" are, even though not being truly a rival!

If he is not a Sasuke to a Naruto he is surely a Shiryu to a Seiya or a Killua to a Gon... 

The safest assumption we could make now is to say Luffy = Zoro, at least roughly...


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## Federer (Apr 27, 2015)

Yeah, at best Zoro could rival Luffy in power. Like Sasuke was to Naruto. 
His Yin to his Yang.

Kinda like brothers. 

I actually like this idea, since I'm a huge Zoro fan and I'm not particularly a fan of Luffy's characteristics. But in any shonen, you need these lighthearted goofy type of characters. But Zoro being weaker than Luffy at the end of the story wouldn't make me love Zoro any less. 

Since we don't know for sure if Oda will go that way, I believe that the main character should have the benefit of the doubt. 

But that's just me.


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

Federer said:


> Yeah, at best Zoro could rival Luffy in power. Like Sasuke was to Naruto.
> His Yin to his Yang.
> 
> Kinda like brothers.



 That's exactly the type of characters they are! They are pretty much equal power-wise although the main character ends up to have a bigger role of course!
There are many examples of these couples, rival or side by side, but the archetypes of characters are these... 



> I actually like this idea, since I'm a huge Zoro fan and I'm not particularly a fan of Luffy's characteristics. But in any shonen, you need these lighthearted goofy type of characters. But Zoro being weaker than Luffy at the end of the story wouldn't make me love Zoro any less.
> 
> Since we don't know for sure if Oda will go that way, I believe that the main character should have the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> But that's just me.



Well, Oda kept them equal for the whole pre-timeskip, I don't see why he should make Luffy stronger now...  Trust me, the highest probability is to see them always pretty much equal and even if Luffy would get the edge towards the end, you can bet it will be very small and unnoticeable!


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## goldsaint13 (Apr 27, 2015)

Roronoa-zoro said:


> I pretty much agree with Fed here.



In the post timeskip we can't really say that the Luffy = Zoro statement is absolutely correct! They are the same tier but we are unsure, we lack official comparisons! Saying Luffy > Zoro is as much assumptive though... Zoro didn't even show his best... He's far from showing it...

Just compare how often Luffy has used Hardening compared to Zoro... Zoro simply didn't need it until now... He was too strong for his opponents...


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