# Double Mangekyou Kakashi vs Final Sasuke Uchiha



## KevKev (Nov 18, 2014)

Only one fair restriction: Kakashi can't instawarp Sasuke, only phasing abilities and kamui shurikens allowed as his arsenal.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 18, 2014)

KevKev said:


> Only one fair restriction:* Kakashi can't instawarp *Sasuke, only phasing abilities and kamui shurikens allowed as his arsenal.



So Kakashi wins... but you don't want him to win. 

You might as well make this fight "Kakashi with Obito's Mangekyo but not his own Vs. Sasuke". Cause it's not DMS Kakashi when he can only use one of his eyes.


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## Brooks (Nov 18, 2014)

The question is how many ways does Kakashi get raped?


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## ChatraOrChakra (Nov 18, 2014)

dude don't put a spoiler right in the title. i dont know what double sharingan is. i watch the anime. i assume its a later-shown ability


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## Empathy (Nov 18, 2014)

Sasuke would stomp even if Kakashi weren't restricted. He fought EoS Naruto to near draw. He could warp away from _Kamui_ if he couldn't just absorb it, and I'm not seeing how Kakashi would prevent himself from being bisected or having a sword teleported into him like Sasuke did with Juubi jinchuuriki Madara. Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ should also be a lot stronger from receiving half of Hagoromo's chakra, whereas Kakashi only has remnants of Obito's rikudou chakra, whilst his ascension is only temporary. Kakashi at his zenith is probably only around Juubi jinchuuriki Obito, one-eyed Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara, or _Shimon_ Gai at best. Him being closer to the level of Kaguya, Hagoromo, EoS Naruto and Sasuke, or Juubi jinchuuriki Madara with both eyes and the Shinju tree assimilated, would be pretty ridiculous when he only received another Mangekyou Sharingan and Obito's leftover rikudou chakra for a power-up with a time-limit.


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## Ghost (Nov 18, 2014)

Sasuke stomps. People need to stop making this thread.


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## SSMG (Nov 18, 2014)

Kakashi wins due to the ability to attack while intangible and the ability to wrap himself right to Sasuke while attacking.. He doesn't need to instawarp Sasuke to win this one.


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## PDQ (Nov 18, 2014)

Empathy said:


> Sasuke would stomp even if Kakashi weren't restricted. He fought EoS Naruto to near draw. He could warp away from _Kamui_ if he couldn't just absorb it, and I'm not seeing how Kakashi would prevent himself from being bisected or having a sword teleported into him like Sasuke did with Juubi jinchuuriki Madara. Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ should also be a lot stronger from receiving half of Hagoromo's chakra, whereas Kakashi only has remnants of Obito's rikudou chakra, whilst his ascension is only temporary. Kakashi at his zenith is probably only around Juubi jinchuuriki Obito, one-eyed Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara, or _Shimon_ Gai at best. Him being closer to the level of Kaguya, Hagoromo, EoS Naruto and Sasuke, or Juubi jinchuuriki Madara with both eyes and the Shinju tree assimilated, would be pretty ridiculous when he only received another Mangekyou Sharingan and Obito's leftover rikudou chakra for a power-up with a time-limit.



The same way Obito avoided getting bisected by Sasuke when he was with Deidara. Kamui makes Kakashi practically impossible to hit.


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## Max Thunder (Nov 18, 2014)

This thread is dumb as fuck.

Sasuke stomps.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 18, 2014)

Empathy said:


> Sasuke would stomp even if Kakashi weren't restricted. He fought EoS Naruto to near draw. He could warp away from _Kamui_ if he couldn't just absorb it, and I'm not seeing how Kakashi would prevent himself from being bisected or having a sword teleported into him like Sasuke did with Juubi jinchuuriki Madara. Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ should also be a lot stronger from receiving half of Hagoromo's chakra, whereas Kakashi only has remnants of Obito's rikudou chakra, whilst his ascension is only temporary. Kakashi at his zenith is probably only around Juubi jinchuuriki Obito, one-eyed Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara, or _Shimon_ Gai at best. Him being closer to the level of Kaguya, Hagoromo, EoS Naruto and Sasuke, or Juubi jinchuuriki Madara with both eyes and the Shinju tree assimilated, would be pretty ridiculous when he only received another Mangekyou Sharingan and Obito's leftover rikudou chakra for a power-up with a time-limit.


He proved he was close to Kaguya's power scale when he warped/dodged her chakra arms, phased through her strongest/fastest attack in the manga, blitzed her with a Kamui-Raikiri and then warped her near-instantaneous bone warp which barely moved a foot out of her second warp-hole. 

I'm not understanding your gauge of his power scale. Rikudo-enhanced Kamui PS+Double Kamui is clearly top-tier in power scale, Kakashi did more against Kaguya than Rikudo Naruto + Sasuke did fighting her for extended minutes on end, in literally a 5 second exchange.


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## Santoryu (Nov 18, 2014)

All that while devising an effective plan to take her down.

Saying DMS Kakashi isn't top-tier is asinine considering his performance against *Kaguya*.


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## Hachibi (Nov 18, 2014)

Sasuke win. Not sure the diff.


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## Alucardemi (Nov 18, 2014)

There's nothing really stopping Sasuke from teleporting a sword into Kakashi's head and ending it there.


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## SSMG (Nov 18, 2014)

^Except for kakashi being intangible.


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## Hachibi (Nov 18, 2014)

SSMG said:


> ^Except for kakashi being intangible.



Except he isn't always intangible.


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## Kai (Nov 18, 2014)

DMS Kakashi doesn't have what it takes to beat any God Tier before his power expires.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Except he isn't always intangible.


Lol considering a Rikudo-level enhancement to double-Kamui, this literally is debatable.


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## Ghost (Nov 18, 2014)

SSMG said:


> ^Except for kakashi being intangible.



Except for Kakashi isn't intangible 24/7 and Sasuke is faster.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 18, 2014)

> Sasuke is faster.


If by this you mean his Susano, then yes.

But no, Sasuke is not faster without his Bijuu Susano.

This was literally proven when Sasuke's Teleportation was casually brushed off and dodged by weighed-down Kaguya, while Kakashi outright blitzed her in free fall without a reaction.


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## Hachibi (Nov 18, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> If by this you mean his Susano, then yes.
> 
> But no, Sasuke is not faster without his Bijuu Susano.
> 
> This was literally proven when Sasuke's Teleportation was casually brushed off and dodged by weighed-down Kaguya, while Kakashi outright blitzed her in free fall without a reaction.



This has become weird when Naruto blitzed Kaguya too (form a greater distance than Kakashi) and he got taken off guard by Sasuke's Teleportation 

Also, Sasuke still has his Bijuu Susano.


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## SSMG (Nov 18, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Except he isn't always intangible.



Well depends on the Intel really.. If he has manga Intel he'd go intangible the instant the match started.


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## Mercurial (Nov 18, 2014)

Kamui GG restricted? Sasuke tries to hit Kakashi with Amenotejikara, Kakashi reacts and dodge with Kamui phasing, then teleports away disappearing with Kamui self warping at maximized speed with both eyes + Rikudo chakra; then he warps back Sasuke, and blitzes with Kamui Raikiri without Sasuke being able to do anything.


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## Shanks (Nov 18, 2014)

Sasuke low difficulties.


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## Empathy (Nov 18, 2014)

PDQ said:


> The same way Obito avoided getting bisected by Sasuke when he was with Deidara. Kamui makes Kakashi practically impossible to hit.



What? I'm referring to his usage that allowed him to get close enough to lop Madara in half. If Juubi jinchuuriki Madara couldn't react, despite having Obito's ability to phase at the time in addition to plethora of other useful jutsu in that situation, then why would Kakashi? Again, this is Madara who collected all the bijuu to obtain a more composite Juubi jinchuuriki than Obito, compared to Kakashi, who only has Obito's other sharingan and a fraction of Obito's inferior (to Madara's) Juubi jinchuuriki chakra. Of course Kakashi could react to Sasuke's regular _shunshin no jutsu_. However, there's no way Kakashi can react to what is essentially _Hirashin_ within a certain range that requires no tags. He's got no reflexive feats supporting he could somehow perceive that; he narrowly reacted to a far-from-instantaneous _Tomogoroshi no Haikotsu_.



DaVizWiz said:


> He proved he was close to Kaguya's power scale when he warped/dodged her chakra arms, phased through her strongest/fastest attack in the manga, blitzed her with a Kamui-Raikiri and then warped her near-instantaneous bone warp which barely moved a foot out of her second warp-hole.
> 
> I'm not understanding your gauge of his power scale. Rikudo-enhanced Kamui PS+Double Kamui is clearly top-tier in power scale, Kakashi did more against Kaguya than Rikudo Naruto + Sasuke did fighting her for extended minutes on end, in literally a 5 second exchange.



If Sakura can bonk her on the head and knock a horn off, then of course someone I said was at the level of _Shimon_ Gai or Juubi jinchuuriki Obito could contribute. Kakashi merely has Obito's other sharingan and remnants of Obito's rikudou chakra. That's nothing compared to half of Hagoromo's chakra, and being at Hagoromo's level when Sasuke absorbed the bijuu. Kakashi's not anywhere near that level. All Kakashi did was leave a negligible cut on her shoulder. He warped her _Tomogoroshi no Haikotsu_, which near-death Obito could already do. _Tomogoroshi no Haikotsu_ is far from the strongest or fastest attack from the literal strongest character of the series; that's one of the most blatantly biased things I've ever heard. Not when she can dimension hop, create rifts in space, and make a _Gudoudama_ large enough to destroy the world. Her chakra arms when her bijuu chakra was unstable were slow and temporarily outran by Sakura. Kakashi didn't blitz the strongest character in the series either. Kaguya didn't notice he phased through an attack and Kakashi fell downwards to cut her shoulder while she was more concerned with Naruto and Sasuke sealing her. 

He did the same thing Sakura did, which was fall downwards and hit her while her attention was diverted to Naruto and Sasuke. Kakashi has no way to prevent Sasuke from impaling or bifurcating him with his _Amenotejikara_. He's got nowhere near the reflexive feats to react to it. _Kamui_ or it's variants would just be warped from easily or absorbed. Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ has half of Hagoromo's chakra behind it, in addition to all the bijuu absorbed, whilst Kakashi again, only possess temporary Obito leftovers. Sasuke was stated to be at the level of Hagoromo or two-eyed Juubi jinchuuriki Madara with the Shinju tree assimilated. The gap between Rikudou Sennin and Juubi jinchuuriki Obito is greater than the one between one-eyed Juubi jinchuuriki Madara, who got beat up by Naruto and Sasuke, and Madara with both eyes and the Shinju tree absorbed, who was stronger than Naruto or Sasuke at the time, and also cast _Mugen Tsukuyomi_ onto the world. Moreover, Kakashi only possesses a temporary *fraction* of that Obito's *considerably weaker*, dying power. 

Kakashi's _Susanoo_ was breached by a simple _Tomogoroshi no Haikotsu_, while Sasuke's took multiple _Yasogami Kuugeki_ to break. Sasuke from the final chapters and Kakashi with both Mangekyou and just Obito's leftover rikudou chakra are without a doubt in different calibers, never-mind the strongest character in the series, who possesses planet-wrecking attacks. Your last sentence was just more added fluff and wank to the rest of the asinine nonsense. All he did was fall toward her to hit her when she was paying attention to Naruto and Sasuke, just like Sakura did, and warp the same attack that dying Obito could. Kakashi's fan-base are the only ones who would argue he stands a chance when he's so clearly, vastly outmatched unless that person were just severely misinformed.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 18, 2014)

Empathy said:


> What? I'm referring to his usage that allowed him to get close enough to lop Madara in half. If Juubi jinchuuriki Madara couldn't react, despite having Obito's ability to phase at the time in addition to plethora of other useful jutsu in that situation, *then why would Kakashi?*



Because Madara _didn't_ have Obito's phasing?

He did not have Obito's eye at that point... warping =/= phasing. It doesn't even come close to DMS warping or phasing.

Sasuke hasn't shown anything that could get past Kamui phasing. And his fastest movement ability goes on cool-down after three uses. Kakashi can easily use more than 3 head sized Kamui snipes in a row and when the fourth one comes, Sasuke can't avoid it. Amusing he's even fast enough to avoid the first one which is debatable considering Kakashi warped away Kaguya's bone practically instantly. But it also depends on knowledge. 

Doesn't matter here though since Kakashi's Kamui is restricted.


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## SSMG (Nov 18, 2014)

^Well kakashis kamui isn't restricted.. Just kakashi can't kamui snipe Sasuke with it.. That's how I read the OP anyways.. So he should still able to to warp to Sasuke to attack similar to what he did to kaguya.


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## Empathy (Nov 18, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Because Madara _didn't_ have Obito's phasing?
> 
> He did not have Obito's eye at that point... warping =/= phasing. It doesn't even come close to DMS warping or phasing.



If you look a page before that, he did have Obito's eye at that point, and the page after that, he utilizes Obito's abilities. After gaining Obito's eye, why would he be able to use one of his abilities and not the other? Madara clearly noticed and acknowledged Sasuke — and better yet, why didn't Madara use one of plethora of abilities he could've used to stop Sasuke in that situation (_Limbo_, _Kamui_, _Gudodama_, anything?) If Madara didn't react, then for what particular reason would Kakashi?



> Sasuke hasn't shown anything that could get past Kamui phasing. And his fastest movement ability goes on cool-down after three uses. Kakashi can easily use more than 3 head sized Kamui snipes in a row and when the fourth one comes, Sasuke can't avoid it. Amusing he's even fast enough to avoid the first one which is debatable considering Kakashi warped away Kaguya's bone practically instantly. But it also depends on knowledge.



What stops Sasuke from using one _Amenotejikara_ as both an evasive maneuver and to attack Kakashi at once? How can Kakashi react to a literally instantaneous attack when he marginally phased through Kaguya's bone projectile? He's not intangible at all times and can't remain that way indefinitely. Even if he could attack with just his perfect _Susanoo_ while staying intangible, Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ would just give Kakashi's a wedgie. You are aware that just regular ol' Kakashi is capable of three or four head-sized _Kamuis_ easily, yes? Then by your logic, what exactly prevents regular Kakashi from killing one of the strongest characters of the series with the ease you suggested? Does normal Kakashi easily killing EoS Sasuke sound logical or feasible to you? Why exactly would _Kamui_ and it's projectile variants not be able to be absorbed when they're composed of chakra? Sasuke's technique may have a slight cool-down period, but Kakashi's entire power-up is temporary and doesn't last very long. He can't shoot off _Kamuis_ while remaining intangible the whole time, and he doesn't even have the time to just stay intangible and fire off pot-shots before his time's up.


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## Ersa (Nov 18, 2014)

Are people actually debating that one of the Rikudo powered protagonists will lose to a supporting character?

Holy shit 

Kakashi was never shown or stated to be at the Sage of the Six Paths level, Naruto and Sasuke have. It's pretty obvious who wins this, powerful as Kakashi may be.


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## JuicyG (Nov 18, 2014)

Take off restrictions from DMS Kakashi. Make him limitless time with DMS......

Now restrict Sasuke to his Kaguya fight self.....

Thats far more even


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## Lurko (Nov 19, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Are people actually debating that one of the Rikudo powered protagonists will lose to a supporting character?
> 
> Holy shit
> 
> Kakashi was never shown or stated to be at the Sage of the Six Paths level, Naruto and Sasuke have. It's pretty obvious who wins this, powerful as Kakashi may be.



It's not like Kakashi was owning Kaguya with his part time power up.......


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> It's not like Kakashi was owning Kaguya with his part time power up.......


He did well but no better then Naruto who Sasuke fought to a dead draw. And Sakura sorta owned Kaguya too if you cherry pick the fight. Regardless of how impressive that feat is, Kakashi has never shown he is SoSP level, Sasuke and Naruto have. They have half of his chakra while Kakashi has fragments not to mention final Rinnegan > MS.


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## Lurko (Nov 19, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> He did well but no better then Naruto who Sasuke fought to a dead draw. And Sakura sorta owned Kaguya too if you cherry pick the fight. Regardless of how impressive that feat is, Kakashi has never shown he is SoSP level, Sasuke and Naruto have. They have half of his chakra while Kakashi has fragments not to mention final Rinnegan > MS.



I go by feats not outliers like Sakura breaking a horn because Kaguya was paying attention to everyone but Sakura. Kakashi has too much hax for Sasuke.


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> I go by feats not outliers like Sakura breaking a horn because Kaguya was paying attention to everyone but Sakura. Kakashi has too much hax for Sasuke.


Sasuke has everything he needs to counter Kakashi's hax.

The manga never gave me the impression he was on par with the Sage himself, regardless of how impressive his performance was.

Given how questionable some of the later feats were, we definitely have to take some author portrayal into account. And Sauce was clearly stated to be on par with the Sage himself who may I remind you did create a moon and defeated the Juubi.


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## SSMG (Nov 19, 2014)

Well the sage did compliment kakashi for his role in bringing down kaguya.. So there's some portrayal for him being at that level.


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2014)

Sage praising someone =/= That someone being on his level.

Simple logic says.

50% Rikudo chakra > Fragments of his chakra.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 19, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Sage praising someone =/= That someone being on his level.
> 
> Simple logic says.
> 
> 50% Rikudo chakra > Fragments of his chakra.



Nothing in the manga has ever indicated that having Rikudo Chakra means that you're somehow unstoppable.

Kamui was able to phase through Kaguya and warp her abilities away. Sasuke isn't stronger than Kaguya. He needed Naruto, Kakashi, AND Sakura to beat Kaguya. You can toot Rikudo Chakra's horn all you want. It doesn't mean Sasuke can touch Kakashi when he's phasing or get away from Kakashi when he's sniping. Based on actual feats and not hype or "portrayal", Kamui is the most broken skill in the entire manga. Obito was able to transfer his powers to Kakashi FROM THE AFTERLIFE using Kamui. It's just too hax.


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2014)

How hax it is to you is purely subjective.

You may consider Kakashi stronger then the Sage of Six Paths but I don't.


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## Altair21 (Nov 19, 2014)

Change the topic to EoS Naruto vs DMS Kakashi and it'll be filled with Naruto stomps. The double standards are quite amusing. And I mean if we're going to wank kamui like this then I guess he stomps Kaguya and Hagoromo too since none of them have shown counters to kamui.  

Back on topic: Sasuke stomps.


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2014)

Yeah I hate to do this but I think you're right. 

People would be begging for a lock if this was Naruto.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 19, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> How hax it is to you is purely subjective.
> 
> You may consider Kakashi stronger then the Sage of Six Paths but I don't.



You have it backwards.

How important Rikudo Chakra is to you is purely subjective.

How hax Kamui is has been objectively shown in the manga.

And Naruto Vs. Kamui is vastly different than Sasuke Vs. Kamui. Naruto has one of the only techniques that could absolutely counter Kamui effectively. Shadow Clones. And he's the only one with enough Chakra to create enough Shadow Clones to make Kamui (offensively) useless. And it's not a double standard. Naruto hasn't shown anything that could hit an intangible Kamui user either. He doesn't stand a chance against Kamui snipe if they start with a clear line of sight and are relatively close together. Sasuke is faster than Naruto. Kakashi's Kamui warped Kaguya's portal before Naruto had moved an inch in real time and he was going full speed ahead to stop her. Kakashi's Kamui is absolutely faster than Naruto's Shadow Clone technique. 

Kamui is one of the only attacks in the manga that ignores any sort of power scale. It doesn't matter how strong Naruto or Sasuke are. It doesn't matter how special their Chakra is. That won't affect Kamui at all unless it can directly counter the effects of Kamui, break the Kamui user's line of sight indefinitely, or outrun the speed of Kamui.

None of which are very likely and certainly haven't been shown by Sasuke or Naruto.

You aren't presenting an argument here. All you're saying is that Sasuke and Naruto are more important characters than Kakashi and their powers are godly. So they should be able to beat anyone.

That's fine... but it's not a good argument. It doesn't matter who is using Kamui... it's the technique that is broken, not the user. And Kaguya WAS a god. Even higher than Rikudo Chakra on a power scale or a "portrayal" scale. Kamui gave her more trouble than anything Naruto and Sasuke could dish out.


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## Zef (Nov 19, 2014)

Rinnegan Genjutsu solos.

Stop making these stomp threads where Sasuke doesn't even have to move in order to win.


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## Hachibi (Nov 19, 2014)

Holy shit. Three page for a stomp thread? 

The Sasuke Hate/Kakashi Wank never stop to amaze me.


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## Zef (Nov 19, 2014)

So do people think that DMS Kakashi beats Naruto as well? Just curious.......


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## Kai (Nov 19, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> And Naruto Vs. Kamui is vastly different than Sasuke Vs. Kamui. Naruto has one of the only techniques that could absolutely counter Kamui effectively. Shadow Clones.


And Sasuke has another one of the only techniques that could absolutely counter Kamui effectively. Space-time ninjutsu, and a superior one at that. Kamui gets outmaneuvered.


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## Alucardemi (Nov 19, 2014)

Consider that Sasuke has shown to warp several objects at once. Now consider that his warp is instantaneous, unlike Kamui. 

Kakashi goes for the Kamui snipe, as is in his character to do so. As the portal forms, Sasuke instantaneously shifts himself out, and shifts his sword into the space where Kakashi's head is with. Instant death, and absolutely no time to go intangible, as Amenotejikara is a ranged Hiraishin. Or he just shifts Kakashi into his own warp, for insult.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 19, 2014)

Kai said:


> And Sasuke has another one of the only techniques that could absolutely counter Kamui effectively. Space-time ninjutsu, and a superior one at that. Kamui gets outmaneuvered.



Which I already established... has a cool down after three uses. Whether Kakashi's DMS is on a time limit or not, he has plenty of time to use four Kamui snipes in a row.



Alucardemi said:


> Consider that Sasuke has shown to warp several objects at once. Now consider that his warp is instantaneous, unlike Kamui.
> 
> Kakashi goes for the Kamui snipe, as is in his character to do so. As the portal forms, Sasuke instantaneously shifts himself out, and shifts his sword into the space where Kakashi's head is with. Instant death, and absolutely no time to go intangible, as Amenotejikara is a ranged Hiraishin. Or he just shifts Kakashi into his own warp, for insult.



None of what you said pertains to how Kamui actually works. Sasuke would need his own Kamui to be able to attack Kakashi's intangible body from the other side. The only reason Naruto was able to hit Obito is because Kakashi sent an entire clone to the Kamui dimension where it was free to find the location of Obito's body when he goes intangible. Sasuke wasn't a part of that plan so he wouldn't even have that knowledge. But even if he did, he would need to somehow get to Kamui land himself while forcing Kakashi to go intangible... which won't happen without a shadow clone. If Kakashi is sniping Sasuke's head, he's not going to get his sword near the location of Kakashi's body in Kamui land. Either it gets his head or he avoids it. 

Kakashi can be intangible for at least five minutes while simultaneously spamming Kamui snipes. And like I said... he would only need four in a row to counter Sasuke's only means of avoiding Kamui. Easily done in less than five minutes. In that time there is literally nothing that Sasuke can do... which is why I find it so laughable that people think Sasuke "stomps" at all. With no reasoning besides "hype" and "he's a main character".

Yeah ok.

It's not even about Kakashi, like so many of you make it out to be. You give DMS Kamui to anybody and practically no one stands a chance. Based on... you know... actual feats and tangible evidence.


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## Zef (Nov 19, 2014)

I've yet to hear a convincing argument about how Kakashi defends against Rinnegan genjutsu. Especially with what the Databook says about Rinnegan and ocular illusions.


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## Hachibi (Nov 19, 2014)

How is Kakashi reacting to Rinnegan Teleport again?


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## Alucardemi (Nov 19, 2014)

Uh, you can't snipe and be intangible simultaneously. Not sure where that notion even comes from,  it hasn't  been shown and is antithetical to Kamui's principle of becoming tangible when things are teleported, as when with Obito attempts to teleport his entire body against Konan and is forced to slip through tags.  I'd like evidence that the junction of these two completely opposite abilities is even possible. 

Because as it stands, Kakashi tries a warp and gets a sword through his head for his trouble.  There is no space for reaction here.


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## SSMG (Nov 19, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Uh, you can't snipe and be intangible simultaneously. Not sure where that notion even comes from,  it hasn't  been shown and is antithetical to Kamui's principle of becoming tangible when things are teleported, as when with Obito attempts to teleport his entire body against Konan and is forced to slip through tags.  I'd like evidence that the junction of these two completely opposite abilities is even possible.
> 
> Because as it stands, Kakashi tries a warp and gets a sword through his head for his trouble.  There is no space for reaction here.



Kakashi was intangible for kaguyas ash bones then warped right to kaguya with a raikiri...aka he was intangible while attacking.


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## Bonly (Nov 19, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Kakashi was intangible for kaguyas ash bones then warped right to kaguya with a raikiri...aka he was intangible while attacking.



"Uh, you can't snipe and be intangible simultaneously."

I think he's saying Kakashi can't use both MS jutsu at the same time, not that Kakashi can't attack while using one MS at the same time.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 19, 2014)

If Kakashi can use raikiri while tangible why wouldnt he be able to use Kamui ?

Kakashi can mantain intangibility with an eye and attack with the other, how wierd not even once intangible Obito could attack but Kakashi can having both eyes can, the obvious reason is that both eyes allow for attack and defense simultaneously.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 19, 2014)

Just how many times do you guys wanna see kakashi get destroyed?

Sasuke shifts and tear him open with chidori gatana.


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## Lurko (Nov 19, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You have it backwards.
> 
> How important Rikudo Chakra is to you is purely subjective.
> 
> ...



Dude you hit it right on the spot but some people here just deny it so honestly man you should just ignore them because they ignore feats.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 19, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Just how many times do you guys wanna see kakashi get destroyed?
> 
> Sasuke shifts and tear him open with chidori gatana.



Sasuke cant Chidori intangible beings.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Sasuke cant Chidori intangible beings.



Kakashi won't even get a chance to go intangible before he gets one-shotted.

It's not that hard to see. Kakashi tries to snipe sasuke but a sasuke who already insta-shifted is point blank to him with a katana through his chest. Kakashi won't know what hit him.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 19, 2014)

Intangibility has no time, is instant no handseals requiree unless you are going to say Sasuke is not only faster than Kakashi but so faster he can attack before Kakashi can even process a thought which has to be the nostvridiculous claim I have ever seen in the battledome.


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2014)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You have it backwards.
> 
> How important Rikudo Chakra is to you is purely subjective.
> 
> ...


Not really, I think it's pretty evident that any character who has received Rikudo chakra has become a god tier. Your beloved Kakashi for example, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, Madara, Indra, Ashura. So use logic my good friend, if Sasuke has 50% of the Sage's chakra and Kakashi has fragments who holds the advantage there? Hint: It's not Kakashi.

Kamui is hax yes, it's been figured out and countered by Naruto, Kakashi, even Itachi nearly got Obito through Kamui despite having zero knowledge on it. It's no more hax then Rinnegan.

What gives you the idea that Kakashi can even snipe Naruto or Sasuke before they react? May I remind you that these guys were reacting to Juubito in their EMS/BSM states? Then they get massive stat boosts to the point where Naruto can kick a Gudoudama away without his Rikudo mode? Nothing suggests they get sniped, Naruto creates a clone, Sasuke warps away. It's pretty fucking simple and if you really think Kishimoto would have Kakashi one shot Naruto then I have few words to respond to that.

Kaguya was far more concerned about Naruto and Sasuke then Kakashi and one decent showing from him really doesn't put him above Naruto or Sasuke who still had good showings against her (Naruto more so then Sasuke). Even then we know that Naruto = Sasuke is basically canon considering their fight ended in a dead draw, condition-wise. Naruto won technically.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 19, 2014)

So according to you "RS chakra = instant win because is RS chakra" arguments be damned ? And yes Kishi would not write Kakashi winning, guess what ? Kishi is not writing this fight.

If Kishi introduced a Gatou thug with zero RS chakra that was a high level reality warper and only appeared a chapter would you claim Naruto and Sasuke would defeat him just because they have half of RS chakra or because Kishi would write it that way ? No if you are reasonable. This is not how the battledome works, we debate feats and plot is not taken in count.


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## Kai (Nov 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> This is not how the battledome works, we debate feats and plot is not taken in count.


People use whatever criteria they desire to determine the outcome of a fight. There's no set way to debate things here.


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## ueharakk (Nov 19, 2014)

Sasuke's PS blitzes Kakashi's PS just like it blitzed naruto's avatar.  Kakashi never lands an offensive kamui on something that fast, and that weary of his abilities.  He nor obito ever been implied to be capable of warping things while intangible, double MS obito actually needed to be saved from the acid by sakura when his other eye was holding the dimension portal open.   And then he's using intangibility with PS?  

Even if you gave him that ability, sasuke still warps behind and blitzes him since kakashi isn't a sensor like naruto, so he isn't dodging or reacting to an attack that naruto could barely react to.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 19, 2014)

He used Kamui Raikiri while intangible.


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## Orochibuto (Nov 19, 2014)

Kai said:


> People use whatever criteria they desire to determine the outcome of a fight. There's no set way to debate things here.



Yes there is, this is how it works here and in every battledome I know, plot is not taken in count as it makes fights redundant.

If anything having to rely on "character x wins because Kishi says so" shows you cant explain why the character wins.


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## Ersa (Nov 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> So according to you "RS chakra = instant win because is RS chakra" arguments be damned ? And yes Kishi would not write Kakashi winning, guess what ? Kishi is not writing this fight.
> 
> If Kishi introduced a Gatou thug with zero RS chakra that was a high level reality warper and only appeared a chapter would you claim Naruto and Sasuke would defeat him just because they have half of RS chakra or because Kishi would write it that way ? No if you are reasonable. This is not how the battledome works, we debate feats and plot is not taken in count.


Um, considering Kakashi was borderline fodder until he got some RS chakra from Obito yeah it kind of makes sense. It's a pretty recurring theme that RS chakra makes you god tier. Now logically 50% > small amounts or am I wrong? Do I need to relearn maths?

It's Kishimoto's manga, debating feats means meaning how we think Kishimoto views the fight. Thing is to get those reality warping powers he'd probably need RS chakra, otherwise the scenario you have is literally impossible to have in the manga.

The thing is feats are the main focus of an argument yes but author intent cannot be ignored. Feats are subjective, Kishimoto telling us Sasuke is on the level of the Rikudo Sennin is not subjective, *it's objective*. Why in the blue fuck is Kakashi above the Rikudo Sennin? Kamui? Don't make me laugh.

Also feats would indicate Sasuke would win this, he has everything he needs to avoid being Kamui sniped including the reactions to avoid it with his own S/T. Kakashi's PS is inferior as Empathy showed earlier, his stamina is inferior, he has less RS chakra, he has less almost everything bar a little Kamui hax.


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## ueharakk (Nov 19, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> He used Kamui Raikiri while intangible.



when was he shown to be both intangible and using kamui raikiri, and when was he shown to hit kaguya with the attack while intangible?


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## Mercurial (Nov 19, 2014)

Lol. Kakashi reacted to Kaguya's S/T and outspeeded its warp with his offensive Rikudo powered long range Kamui. This is the same S/T that Sasuke couldn't react to and Naruto could barely react and evade; Kakashi also blitzed Kaguya with Kamui Raikiri when she could dodge Sasuke's post S/T Chidori with ease (the "she was taken by surprise from the phasing she couldn't expect" doesn't hold on because if she could, she should have dodged Kakashi's thrust anyway, with a physical movement lide sidestepping or speeding away, like she did against Sasuke, or with her S/T, Kakashi's ability to phase would not have hindered her possibility to move out of his way if she could; it's clear that she couldn't even react, also Black Zetsu couldn't too until she was hit); keep on mind that Kakashi fought a stronger version of Kaguya.


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## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

^^^

Thing is EoS Sasuke > Kaguya fight Sasuke by a mile


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## SSMG (Nov 19, 2014)

Well besides from his bijuu PS, Final fight Sasuke and kaguya fight Sasuke should be the same in things like speed and reactions and such, no?


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## JuicyG (Nov 19, 2014)

EoS Sasuke is adding multiple years to perfect his Riduko powers as well as extra training on rinnegan abilities. Unless were not talking about EoS ?


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## SSMG (Nov 19, 2014)

Oh my mistake I thought you meant final fight Sasuke. EoS Sasuke has no feats though so that's basically just assumptions.


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## Empathy (Nov 22, 2014)

_Kamui_ can't be used while intangible, or else Obito wouldn't have needed to sacrifice himself to save Kakashi. Obito would never have any weaknesses if he weren't tangible while warping. _Kamui Raikiri_ at least requires Kakashi to solidify his hand.


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## Kai (Nov 22, 2014)

Empathy said:


> _Kamui_ can't be used while intangible, or else Obito wouldn't have needed to sacrifice himself to save Kakashi. Obito would never have any weaknesses if he weren't tangible while warping. _Kamui Raikiri_ at least requires Kakashi to solidify his hand.


I agree with the premise, but for the cited example Obito meant himself to be sacrificed. Where would Kaguya's ash bones continue to travel if Obito had phased there?


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## Hachibi (Nov 22, 2014)

Kai said:


> I agree with the premise, but for the cited example Obito meant himself to be sacrificed. Where would Kaguya's ash bones continue to travel if Obito had phased there?



Magic Plot Defense


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## Empathy (Nov 22, 2014)

Oops. 

I guess I could say that Obito could've just warped both bones with his variant and Kakashi's variant if self-sacrifice wasn't necessitated. There's still no evidence supporting the possibility of Kakashi being able to attack with body parts that are in another dimension, which doesn't make any logical sense in the first place. Not that Kakashi could somehow gain the reflexes to facilitate that.


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## GodKashi (Nov 22, 2014)

Without Double Kamui, Kakashi cannot win this. Sasuke at mid-diff.


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## Csdabest (Nov 22, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> If by this you mean his Susano, then yes.
> 
> But no, Sasuke is not faster without his Bijuu Susano.
> 
> This was literally proven when Sasuke's Teleportation was casually brushed off and dodged by weighed-down Kaguya, while Kakashi outright blitzed her in free fall without a reaction.



And sasuke blitzed Naruto who in turned blitzed kaguya. Sasuke movement were restricted due to flight, gravity, and freezing in a block of ice.


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## JuicyG (Nov 22, 2014)

Sasuke was stronger after his fight with kaguya

Kakashi blitzed a stronger verison of Kaguya than the one sasuke and naruto was fighting the rest of the time


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 22, 2014)

Sasuke god stomps did any of you kakashi fanboys see the final fight


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## Ersa (Nov 22, 2014)

No they obviously didn't read the final fight because they believe Kakashi can beat the Rikudo Sennin. I mean Kamui is just that hax.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 24, 2014)

Unrestrict Long Range Kamui, make Kakashi's power permanent, and Sasuke still stomps him.


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## Max Thunder (Nov 24, 2014)

Sasuke literally teleports behind Kakashi and cuts his head off...


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