# Sharigan Kakashi faces off against ....



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Restrictions : no MS 
I am curious how strong Kakashi is without lol Kamui 

Knowledge : manga 
Distance :25m
Mind set : utter blood lust 
Location: killer bee vs taka

Matches 

Kakashi vs hiashi 
Kakashi vs Darui ( how does his lightning face off against Darui black lightning )
Kakashi vs base jiraiya 

Can Kakashi beat any ?

I think he would loose to jiraiya because of jiraiya summoning 
Darui would push Kakashi hard . Jutsu for jutsu they can trade blows 
Speed wise there isn't much difference . Kakashi got the edge in reactions though 
Hiashi should beat Kakashi . That air Palm is a 1 shotter. Also Kakashi other jutsu can be causally blocked. However a trick raiton bunshin should do a lot of damage and possibly give him the win
Then again I don't know how he is going to trick 360 degree vision 

I mean if a clone pops up . Hiashi being able to see everywhere underground included (Kakashi fave hiding place ) he should know the clone attacking isnt the real one . 

Tough matches here . Should be interesting


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

Kakashi vs hiashi-

Not enough about Hiashi to tell really. Hiashi can try an air palm but Kakashi should be faster and get underground or pull a doton wall up before it gets off. Kakashi's too skilled and clever for Hiashi to do much with what he's shown. Kakashi low-mid dif.


Kakashi vs Darui-

Kakashi gets underground and raiton kage bunshin feint gg.


Kakashi vs base jiraiya-

Jiraiya has never summoned a boss summon unless fighting a boss summon so he won't do so here. Kakashi has raiton>Jiraiya's doton and suiton>Jiraiya's Katon. He's also faster has better taijutsu and sharingan. Not to mention he's far smarter than Jiraiya. High dif but Kakashi just has too many advantages over him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Nice post 
Erm why is Kakashi too fast to be hit by Air Palm but not ST for example
A baby ST not capable of slapping away the Juubi hand broke kakashi Doton wall like a biscuit 
What is it going to do against air Palm

Actually we have more than enough feats to judge hiashi strength 
Jumps in to Juubi hand coming to smash some people and still has time to spin to slap it away 
We have seen the size of his Kaiten in part 1 
We know about his air Palm

We know byakugan means he can deal with physically faster opponents 
We know about body blow, lion chakra attack , 64 palms , the fact that one tap to Kakashi chest would kill kakashi etc 


Against Darui so Kakashi goes underground and comes up and Darui must what hit it ? With his sword ? Can't he just use a jutsu to hit the clone . Also didn't sasuke diffuse Darui Lightning preventing paralysis and killer bee Lightning 
Why can't darui a raiton user do the same.  At least argue properly . I know u like Kakashi but try to not sound sooo childish 

So ur copt out as to why jiraiya won't summon bunta is because he hasn't ever and wants to loose correct ? That's just dumb!! Jiraiya can summon off the bat if he feels like it and feels it would overwhelm Kakashi which it should . 
Same way in ur mind Kakashi goes underground off the bat for the lolz jiriaya summons off the bat for the lolz 

If oro while playing with kid naruto can summon a giant snake I don't see why jiriaya while trying to kill Kakashi can't summon bunta . Even naruto bloody KCM naruto used food cart destroyer on zetsu


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Nice post
> Erm why is Kakashi too fast to be hit by Air Palm but not ST for example
> A baby ST not capable of slapping away the Juubi hand broke kakashi Doton wall like a biscuit
> What is it going to do against air Palm



ST is instant Air Palm is not. Sharingan shows him the movement of the arm and the chakra buildup before he can use it. Kakashi can do what ever he thinks lets him live (dodge, block, or counter).



> Actually we have more than enough feats to judge hiashi strength
> Jumps in to Juubi hand coming to smash some people and still has time to spin to slap it away
> We have seen the size of his Kaiten in part 1
> We know about his air Palm



And? Reactions and speed scans where? He gots minimal screen time and his feats aren't much. From what I've seen Kakashi wins, but Hiaishi could be a lot better, we don't know.



> We know byakugan means he can deal with physically faster opponents



Confusing sharingan and byakugan or do you got proof to back that up. 



> We know about body blow, lion chakra attack , 64 palms , the fact that one tap to Kakashi chest would kill kakashi etc



Lion chakra attack is Hinata's and he has no feats of it. And one tap to Kakashi is more than you say. Hidan had Kakuzu for back up and still couldn't get a scratch. Kakashi is faster, sharingan pre-cog, ninjutsu out the ass, and by feats it's Einstein vs a baby in intelligence.



> Against Darui so Kakashi goes underground and comes up and Darui must what hit it ? With his sword ? Can't he just use a jutsu to hit the clone . Also didn't sasuke diffuse Darui Lightning preventing paralysis and killer bee Lightning
> Why can't darui a raiton user do the same.  At least argue properly . I know u like Kakashi but try to not sound sooo childish



Bee got shocked. Sasuke's the only person in the manga who's done a full body raiton move (chidori nagashi) and it's not something you give to everyone with raiton affinity. Again, Kakashi faster, smarter, and better in damn near everything.



> So ur copt out as to why jiraiya won't summon bunta is because he hasn't ever and wants to loose correct ? That's just dumb!! Jiraiya can summon off the bat if he feels like it and feels it would overwhelm Kakashi which it should .



Nothing about wanting to lose. Go to every time he's summoned a boss summon, each and every time the other person whipped one out first. Against Kisame and Itachi do you know what kinda of summon Jiriaya used? It wasn't a boss summon. 



> Same way in ur mind Kakashi goes underground off the bat for the lolz jiriaya summons off the bat for the lolz



Kakashi has canonically gone underground in every single one of his fights except the first two Zabuza fights. Jiraiya has never summoned a boss summon without the other person doing so first. Since Kakashi has no boss summons, it won't happen here.



> If oro while playing with kid naruto can summon a giant snake I don't see why jiriaya while trying to kill Kakashi can't summon bunta . Even naruto bloody KCM naruto used food cart destroyer on zetsu



He can, but he won't.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> ST is instant Air Palm is not. Sharingan shows him the movement of the arm and the chakra buildup before he can use it. Kakashi can do what ever he thinks lets him live (dodge, block, or counter).



any DB descriptions or character statements that claim ST is instant. nagato moves his hand to perform ST. its a tick not like he must. but are u saying when he uses it in that fashion its therefore avoidable by kakashi? block. he got no jutsu to block something of that scale. 
what counter?
he can dodge yes. but again neither ST or air palm have been shown to be instant or described as such. both however have shown to just straight up hit the target quite quickly 




> And? Reactions and speed scans where? He gots minimal screen time and his feats aren't much. From what I've seen Kakashi wins, but Hiaishi could be a lot better, we don't know.



again why would his reactions need to be all that. he can use a 50m chakra radius which allows him to specfically predict kakashi trajectory, alter the momemtum of kakashi attack etc. 
speed why would he have to be that fast at moving from point A to B??

unless u are much faster than a hyuuga outdoing them in cqc isnt happening. isnt that why lee felt he needed 5th gate to outdo neji. despite being much faster in base?

whats kakahsi going to do ? raikiri him 




> Confusing sharingan and byakugan or do you got proof to back that up.



 
go read neji vs kidormaru again. 50 m chakra radius that can alter and predict the trajectory of anything within said field is surely going to be just as useful against a fast opponent than sharingan prediction



> Lion chakra attack is Hinata's and he has no feats of it. And one tap to Kakashi is more than you say. Hidan had Kakuzu for back up and still couldn't get a scratch. Kakashi is faster, sharingan pre-cog, ninjutsu out the ass, and by feats it's Einstein vs a baby in intelligence.



DB states 2 things. 
1) main branch technique *PASSED DOWN!!*  if u think leader of a hand me down technique doesnt know how to use it
2) it drains chakra network. feel free to read DB 4. 

i dont get why mention kakuzu what on earth are u talking about. 

yh sure because hiashi needs to be smart to use taijutsu to hit someone in the chest. unlike kakuzu kick if hiashi uses jukken on kakashi. kakashi dies 



> Bee got shocked. Sasuke's the only person in the manga who's done a full body raiton move (chidori nagashi) and it's not something you give to everyone with raiton affinity. Again, Kakashi faster, smarter, and better in damn near everything.



 
darui wasnt shocked. 
are u saying if kakashi gets hit by a raiton he will be immoblized. 
this is the part where u change ur mind 

yes good for kakashi. so then i can say darui uses raiton. shocks kakashi and takes his head off. i mean why not. then again bunshin feint is nice and all but what stops darui from never engaging in cqc?



> Nothing about wanting to lose. Go to every time he's summoned a boss summon, each and every time the other person whipped one out first. Against Kisame and Itachi do you know what kinda of summon Jiriaya used? It wasn't a boss summon.



so cheap copt out. just so u can say kakashi wins i get you. 
no it wasnt a boss summon. why would he summon a giant toad in a hallway? 
open field here. what logically stops him from using one?



> Kakashi has canonically gone underground in every single one of his fights except the first two Zabuza fights. Jiraiya has never summoned a boss summon without the other person doing so first. Since Kakashi has no boss summons, it won't happen here.



yes which mean kakashi goign outground is manga knowledge. means they can exploit that. 

yh cheap copt out again. jiriaya will summon one if he wants to overwhelm kakashi. considering jiriaya has only ever fought people with giant summons u are makign a very dumb assumption 



> He can, but he won't.



nice copt out


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

I'll make a small post.

Scan of byakugan having any prediction powers like sharingan.

If Kakashi gets hit by raiton attacks then yes he get stunned. He hasn't shown to cancel raiton effects, neither has Killer Bee or Darui. Just because Sasuke has doesn't mean every one with raiton affinity gets to.

Jiraiya's never summoned a boss summon first. NEVER. Against Orochimaru he never used one. Against the goddamn rinnegan he didn't. It was only after they summoned their boss summons.

Having knowledge against Kakashi's tactics mean shit. Itachi fell for it with knowledge. Pain did and he had plenty of knowledge. Naruto and Sakura fell for it in part 2.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> I'll make a small post.
> 
> Scan of byakugan having any prediction powers like sharingan.
> 
> ...



never said they had the same powers. 
go read neji vs kidomaru fight and then tell me how a 50m radius chakra field which can alter and predict the traijectory of anything within that field wouldnt help hiashi

actually having knowledge doesnt mean they wont fall for it. it means darui wont go cqc with it which is the only way the clone is useful 

ok so only sasuke can somehow diffuse raiton when hit by it. despite that never being mentioned as something special


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## Mercurial (Mar 29, 2015)

Restrictions : no MS

Knowledge : manga
Distance :25m
Mind set : utter blood lust
Location: killer bee vs taka

Matches

3 tomoe Kakashi vs hiashi
3 tomoe Kakashi vs Darui 
3 tomoe Kakashi vs base jiraiya 

Hiashi is certaiinly strong and with Byakugan field of vision plus Juken in CQC, Hakke Kusho and Hakkesho Kaiten, it's very good on short and mid range, and also Byakugan should avoid tricks or feints that otherwise would certainly fuck up him. Kakashi is much faster and much smarter, he can certainly work around Hiashi's defense and circumvent it to land a quickly death blow. Kakashi mid diffs.

Darui is basically a watered down version of Sharinganless Kakashi, he has a similar skillset with not the same versatility, not the same power, not the same physical abilities and not the same cleverness; so imagine compared to 3 tomoe Kakashi. 3 tomoe Kakashi is much faster than him, has Sharingan precognition on top of that, would trick him with Kage Bunshin and Raiton Kage Bunshin feint to land a certain hit (he tricked people more powerful and with dojutsu so I don't think one can seriously argue that Darui, as good as he is, won't be fooled by one of the genius fighters in the series). Kakashi's Suiton with Daibafuku and Suiryodan is far more powerful than Darui's (Suijinheki, that Kakashi has too) also Kakashi can preempt every jutsu and use it before than him thanks to Sharingan precognition and his fast handseals speed. Darui's Raiton: Kangekiha or Raiton flow is fodder compared to Raikiri, Raikiri in the extendable version of Raijuu Tsuiga (the Raiton wolf used against Pain), Raiden (made by Raikiri's focused chakra fused with another Raikiri, so powerful that it could cut off easily the same V2 chakra that Raikiri couldn't even damage), and so on. Black Raiton has no feats to be especially powerful (we saw an enhanced version of Kuropansa as it was diffused by the sea water), not certainly against a Raiton master, anyway. Worst possible scenario, if Kakashi can't dodge it (I don't fucking see why: Kakashi after dodging Kakuzu's point blank giant AoE Fuuton ninjutsu could dash off the opposite part to intercept Kakuzu's bolts of lightning of the Raiton: Gian with Raikiri, if he could do that, he should be able to dodge Kuropansa with ease) would defend with Raikiri or double Raikiri, or probably Darui would simply be fighting a clone, anyway we have no feats for Kuropansa being more powerful than Raijuu Tsuiga to begin. In CQC/short range Kakashi murks Darui with better speed, better skill, Sharingan precognition, Sharingan genjutsu, Raikiri flow > Raiton flow, Raikiri in the hands for unblockable hits landed with better body speed and Sharingan precognition, possibility to use Rasengan and what not, oh yeah also he could use the 1st Gate to power up if he wants. Laser Circus can be evaded with speed, stopped with Doton: Doryuheki (when he directly hit Kinkaku, or Ginkaku, I can't rememeber, it basically didn't even damage him, I don't think their base body is more durable than Doryuheki) dodged by moving underground and so on. War Arc (not Rikudo obviously) Kakashi is far, far faster than base Jiraiya, as he could outspeed Obito (that was physically as fast as no Shunshin KCM Naruto and by extension as V1 Raikage), intercept Kaguya's bone projectile with his dash, combo with Gated Gai, react and move on par with Minato and counterblitz Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki landing Raikiri on them and then cutting their chakra arms with Raiden, we know how chakra arms are hella fast. He also pressured with his speed Asura Path, the same that blitzed SM Jiraiya. He has Sharingan precognition and unblockable Raiton attacks, as Ranjishigami or Hari Jizo are certainly not powerful enough to stop him lol. So Kakashi can pressure Jiraiya with far superior speed, adding Sharingan precognition to better time his attack, and use Raikiri, Raikiri kunai or Raiden to cut through any Ranjishigami or Hari Jizo with ease. Kakashi is also definitely smarter and more versatile, has the elemental advantage (Suiton > Katon, Raiton > Doton, plus his own Doton; Doton underground lets him dodge easily Jiraiya's giant Katon in combo with Gamabunta, Yomi Numa is negged with Raikiri chakra flowing around, or preempted with Sharingan and used before Jiraiya with fast handseals speed and genjutsu, as he did with Daibafuku against Zabuza and as Itachi did with Suiryodan against Kabuto); has Sharingan genjutsu on par with Obito's, while genjutsu is one of Jiraiya's biggest weaknesses. Preta Path could dance around Gamabunta, so the much faster Kakashi will definitely dodge every of his attacks and cut off his limbs with Raiton ninjutsu. Jiraiya is not making SM with a faster and smarter opponent pressuring him and even if you make him starting in SM, Kakashi would outperform him with a Raiton Kage Bunshin and then kill him with a Silent Killing Raikiri. Jiraiya in SM had to run away from Preta, Human and Animal, when Kakashi without needing the Mangekyo could trick and corner, and more than once, the much stronger Deva and Asura. And Kakashi in the War Arc is definitely stronger than his previous pre War Arc self.

3 tomoe Kakashi could fight on par with lower Gates Gai and hold off V2 multiple V2 jinchuriki together with him better than KCM Naruto (albeit tired) and Bee, even with full Hachibi, could. He could fend off Hidan and Kakuzu together, while being already injured from the start (Naruto's Fuuton: Rasengan's effect on his hand) and having to babysit team 10, and when he was fighting Deva, the strongest Path by far, Nagato felt the need to sent the Asura too; still Kakashi managed to understand their powers and trick and corner them, and if he didn't have plot against him, with Choza and Choji screwing up his chance to kill Deva, or if he had used the Mangekyo, he would have won. This is something Hiashi, Darui or base Jiraiya cannot even dream to do. Kakashi with Mangekyo is deadly for nearly anyone, with his base fighting skills he is still really a force to be reckoned with: fast, skilled in taijutsu and blessed with Sharingan precognition plus using Raikiri in his hands, in his weapons or with quick dashes he is deadly in CQC, his Sharingan genjutsu can troll most people, his clone feints fooled some of the best shinobi and dojutsu users all around, he is one of the smartest fighters if not the smartest, he has 1000 jutsu and can use things as the Rasengan like carefully, all the elements with mastery of three and top mastery of one. Mastery of the Mangekyo Sharingan with Kamui hax is what made Kakashi one of the top dogs, but his physical abilities, cleverness and versatility are qualities that let him handle most of kage level/S-ranked shinobi without having to use his trump card. 



> Nice post
> Erm why is Kakashi too fast to be hit by Air Palm but not ST for example
> A baby ST not capable of slapping away the Juubi hand broke kakashi Doton wall like a biscuit
> What is it going to do against air Palm


Maybe because Shinra Tensei activation/use is far faster than Hakke Kusho's.



> We know byakugan means he can deal with physically faster opponents
> We know about body blow, lion chakra attack , 64 palms , the fact that one tap to Kakashi chest would kill kakashi etc


Tenten with a kunai in the head would kill Minato, if she hit him. That doesn't mean that Tenten is effectively stronger than Minato and able to kill him.



> Against Darui so Kakashi goes underground and comes up and Darui must what hit it ? With his sword ? Can't he just use a jutsu to hit the clone . Also didn't sasuke diffuse Darui Lightning preventing paralysis and killer bee Lightning
> Why can't darui a raiton user do the same.  At least argue properly . I know u like Kakashi but try to not sound sooo childish


Itachi didn't notice Kakashi creating a clone, swapping with it and hiding underground. Same thing for Deva Path + Asura Path with Rinnegan vision. Is Darui supposed to not being tricked? Come on. And it's not like the clone is fodder compared to the original, it has the same speed, reactions and can use the same jutsu bar Mangekyo. Sasuke is a better Raiton user than Darui and diffused Darui's Raiton: Kangekiha, basically a shitty Raiton chakra stream; Kakashi would make him eat a Raiton Kage Bunshin, an entire human body made of Raiton chakra, so it's a completely different thing.



> So ur copt out as to why jiraiya won't summon bunta is because he hasn't ever and wants to loose correct ? That's just dumb!! Jiraiya can summon off the bat if he feels like it and feels it would overwhelm Kakashi which it should


Gamabunta was lolled around by Preta Path. Preta was literally dancing around him, with Bunta trying to hit him and failing. A Kakashi's clone would run circles around Bunta, making him useless with Sharingan genjutsu (Kakashi's on par with Obito's so would mindfuck Bunta with lol diff) or cutting his limb off with Raikiri, Raikiri kunai and Raiden.



> unless u are much faster than a hyuuga outdoing them in cqc isnt happening. isnt that why lee felt he needed 5th gate to outdo neji. despite being much faster in base?


Base Lee isn't much faster than Neji, not at all. Hiashi has basically no speed feats, I can powerscale him to be decently fast (I think Hiashi is able to fend off some kages and Akatsuki members, I think he is really strong) but not to be able to keep up with a speedster like Kakashi. 



> yh sure because hiashi needs to be smart to use taijutsu to hit someone in the chest. unlike kakuzu kick if hiashi uses jukken on kakashi. kakashi dies


Unlike Kakuzu Hiashi can't eat a Raikiri through the heart, die and actually not die because he has five lives to spare.



> yes good for kakashi. so then i can say darui uses raiton. shocks kakashi and takes his head off. i mean why not. then again bunshin feint is nice and all but what stops darui from never engaging in cqc?


Why not? Maybe because Kakashi is faster and more versatile than him, so Darui won't ever be able to do that. And if he engages in CQC, he would die even worse, against an opponent that is faster, more skilled in CQC, has Sharingan precognition, a stronger Raiton enhancing weapons (Raikiri flow >>> basic Raiton flow) and even nintaijutsu (he can wield Raikiri in his hands, even both, combo'd with Sharingan precognition, Sharingan genjutsu, weaponry, clones, Rasengan... poor Darui).


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

]





Raikiri19 said:


> Restrictions : no MS
> 
> Knowledge : manga
> Distance :25m
> ...



point of this?



> Hiashi is certaiinly strong and with Byakugan field of vision plus Juken in CQC, Hakke Kusho and Hakkesho Kaiten, it's very good on short and mid range, and also Byakugan should avoid tricks or feints that otherwise would certainly fuck up him. Kakashi is much faster and much smarter, he can certainly work around Hiashi's defense and circumvent it to land a quickly death blow. Kakashi mid diffs.



no doubt kakashi is faster and smarter. 
ok tell me how he works a way to land a blow. i am not saying its impossible btw. 
its very possible



> Darui is basically a watered down version of Sharinganless Kakashi, he has a similar skillset with not the same versatility, not the same power, not the same physical abilities and not the same cleverness; so imagine compared to 3 tomoe Kakashi. 3 tomoe Kakashi is much faster than him, has Sharingan precognition on top of that, would trick him with Kage Bunshin and Raiton Kage Bunshin feint to land a certain hit (he tricked people more powerful and with dojutsu so I don't think one can seriously argue that Darui, as good as he is, won't be fooled by one of the genius fighters in the series). Kakashi's Suiton with Daibafuku and Suiryodan is far more powerful than Darui's (Suijinheki, that Kakashi has too) also Kakashi can preempt every jutsu and use it before than him thanks to Sharingan precognition and his fast handseals speed. Darui's Raiton: Kangekiha or Raiton flow is fodder compared to Raikiri, Raikiri in the extendable version of Raijuu Tsuiga (the Raiton wolf used against Pain), Raiden (made by Raikiri's focused chakra fused with another Raikiri, so powerful that it could cut off easily the same V2 chakra that Raikiri couldn't even damage), and so on. Black Raiton has no feats to be especially powerful (we saw an enhanced version of Kuropansa as it was diffused by the sea water), not certainly against a Raiton master, anyway. Worst possible scenario, if Kakashi can't dodge it (I don't fucking see why: Kakashi after dodging Kakuzu's point blank giant AoE Fuuton ninjutsu could dash off the opposite part to intercept Kakuzu's bolts of lightning of the Raiton: Gian with Raikiri, if he could do that, he should be able to dodge Kuropansa with ease) would defend with Raikiri or double Raikiri, or probably Darui would simply be fighting a clone, anyway we have no feats for Kuropansa being more powerful than Raijuu Tsuiga to begin. In CQC/short range Kakashi murks Darui with better speed, better skill, Sharingan precognition, Sharingan genjutsu, Raikiri flow > Raiton flow, Raikiri in the hands for unblockable hits landed with better body speed and Sharingan precognition, possibility to use Rasengan and what not, oh yeah ly stronger than his previous pre War Arc self.



holly shit what kind of wall of text is this
when u say darui is a less verstaile version of kakashi it confuses me
kakashi uses raikiri varaints doton and suiton 
darui uses black lighting, raiton, and ranton. how is that less versatile?
i coudlnt read all of that. spaces please. seems ill like arguing with you. try make it easy to do that



> 3 tomoe Kakashi could fight on par with lower Gates Gai and hold off V2 multiple V2 jinchuriki together with him better than KCM Naruto (albeit tired) and Bee, even with full Hachibi, could. He could fend off Hidan and Kakuzu together, while being already injured from the start (Naruto's Fuuton: Rasengan's effect on his hand) and having to babysit team 10, and when he was fighting Deva, the strongest Path by far, Nagato felt the need to sent the Asura too; still Kakashi managed to understand their powers and trick and corner them, and if he didn't have plot against him, with Choza and Choji screwing up his chance to kill Deva, or if he had used the Mangekyo, he would have won. This is something Hiashi, Darui or base Jiraiya cannot even dream to do. Kakashi with Mangekyo is deadly for nearly anyone, with his base fighting skills he is still really a force to be reckoned with: fast, skilled in taijutsu and blessed with Sharingan precognition plus using Raikiri in his hands, in his weapons or with quick dashes he is deadly in CQC, his Sharingan genjutsu can troll most people, his clone feints fooled some of the best shinobi and dojutsu users all around, he is one of the smartest fighters if not the smartest, he has 1000 jutsu and can use things as the Rasengan like carefully, all the elements with mastery of three and top mastery of one. Mastery of the Mangekyo Sharingan with Kamui hax is what made Kakashi one of the top dogs, but his physical abilities, cleverness and versatility are qualities that let him handle most of kage level/S-ranked shinobi without having to use his trump card.



i get u but is that something jiraiya couldnt do. or darui considering he faced Kinkaku and ginkaku or hiashi considering he slapped away 10 tails and basically can touch those jin's to troll their shrouds. 



> Maybe because Shinra Tensei activation/use is far faster than Hakke Kusho's.



u would have to prove it. i dont think u can. 
neither were described as instant. 
however are u saying when nagato moves his hand to use ST because of the hand movement its therefore easier to avoid? because so far with moving his hands or not it hasnt been avoided. 
now considering all hiashi has to do is move his hand forward why is his activation slower?
Tenten with a kunai in the head would kill Minato, if she hit him. That doesn't mean that Tenten is effectively stronger than Minato and able to kill him.


I





> tachi didn't notice Kakashi creating a clone, swapping with it and hiding underground. Same thing for Deva Path + Asura Path with Rinnegan vision. Is Darui supposed to not being tricked? Come on. And it's not like the clone is fodder compared to the original, it has the same speed, reactions and can use the same jutsu bar Mangekyo. Sasuke is a better Raiton user than Darui and diffused Darui's Raiton: Kangekiha, basically a shitty Raiton chakra stream; Kakashi would make him eat a Raiton Kage Bunshin, an entire human body made of Raiton chakra, so it's a completely different thing


.

true itachi didnt notice. 
do u know how darui can avoid being tricked by it. keeping his distance. he got the better long range moves. if a clone comes from under jump back and attack it. tsunade has already shown avoiding an underground attack is perfectly possible 

do explain how streaming raiton and a diffused raiton clone are completely different. both stun
the clone is a good diversion thats it. 



> Gamabunta was lolled around by Preta Path. Preta was literally dancing around him, with Bunta trying to hit him and failing. A Kakashi's clone would run circles around Bunta, making him useless with Sharingan genjutsu (Kakashi's on par with Obito's so would mindfuck Bunta with lol diff) or cutting his limb off with Raikiri, Raikiri kunai and Raiden.



that was deva path.do get ur facts right. i dont see how that means a kakashi clone, i.e a weak version of himself only used for diversion is supposed to run round him. especially when FCD is used to land on kakashi head. jiriaya will bring it to use combintation techniques with. not for bunta to go on attacking kakashi by itself 

kakashi on par with obito genjtusu???  you know there is such a thing as a weak genjutsu right. 
ok if kakashi is on par with obito then u are saying he can control a perfect jin with his genjtusu then right. feats or anything suggesting this please. 

going into a genjutsu battle with obito using basic weak ass sharingan genjtusu doesnt put them on par. what idiot wouldnt break a genjutsu or rin still as a child. like seriously! genin sakura would break that

nothing stops bunta from jumping and using the flame oil combo with jiriaya. 

note i havent said jiraiya wins just that bunta does provide fire power to overwhelm kakashi



> Base Lee isn't much faster than Neji, not at all. Hiashi has basically no speed feats, I can powerscale him to be decently fast (I think Hiashi is able to fend off some kages and Akatsuki members, I think he is really strong) but not to be able to keep up with a speedster like Kakashi.



 seriously!!! so neji could outpace gaara sand the way lee was? or move liek that? for real feats of this please

again not that u are wanking but even if hiashi was twice as slow as kakashi which he isnt 
u seem to be forgetting that neji was much much slower than the arrows he avoided. 
a genin was able to put up a 50m chakra barrier to detect, and alter the trajectory of attacks within said field. 

considering kakashi only way to harm hiashi is to come up close and use raikri to kill him, ill say kakashi is more likely to loose, because he sure as hell isnt outdoing hiashi in cqc 

hiashi would know this so clone feints would be kind of silly, that and 360 vision make it hard to pull off. 
anyone truing to run at hiashi would be a clone the one least willing to confront hiashi would be the original. 
easy logic, the first attack is a decoy. 



> Unlike Kakuzu Hiashi can't eat a Raikiri through the heart, die and actually not die because he has five lives to spare.



no he cant but he can u know, alter the direction of the attack. dodge it. air palm before kakashi gets there etc. 



> Why not? Maybe because Kakashi is faster and more versatile than him, so Darui won't ever be able to do that. And if he engages in CQC, he would die even worse, against an opponent that is faster, more skilled in CQC, has Sharingan precognition, a stronger Raiton enhancing weapons (Raikiri flow >>> basic Raiton flow) and even nintaijutsu (he can wield Raikiri in his hands, even both, combo'd with Sharingan precognition, Sharingan genjutsu, weaponry, clones, Rasengan... poor Darui).



kakashi is faster true. however even jugo much slower than EI could react to EI jutsu. darui will have zero problems reaccting to kakashi attacks. 
sorry since when was raikriri flow >>>basic raiton flow. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!! HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO MAKE THAT UP!!! AH FUCK MAN  and i was enjoying this convo till that blantant silly fan boy comment. scans of such BS please

edit: oh you mean raikiri why on earth would you call it raikiri chakra flow ?? yes raikiri>>>raiton flow in a blade. 

kakashi doesnt have nintaijutsu please stop it!! u are getting annoying 

yh kakashi easily outdoing darui is only in ur best dreams. the very best ones.


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## Zef (Mar 29, 2015)

Kakashi gets stomped in all the matches.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

not stomped but i do think he looses to hiashi and jiraiya but should beat darui 
with some difficulty 

i however dont think raiton bunshin would paralyze someone capable of using raiton and kuro raiton. considering kuro pansa comes from his body. 
it should be obvious that he can diffuse raiton in his body. if that skill was special kishi would have mentioned it
vs making it come off as a casual thing 

considering when he diffused darui raiton. darui was like oh he got lightning style. not omg i cant believe he diffused it


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

Raiton flow. Raikiri flow. Obviously raikiri flow is better.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Raiton flow. Raikiri flow. Obviously raikiri flow is better.




so then you are comparing a pencil sharpness to a steel knife sharpness
you get that right

same boost however vastly different sharpness between a pencil and a steel knife

also kakashi is cutting through with the knife and there we have a pencil tossed. 

 and 

its ok to be a fan, be a smart one. that was a stupidly stupid argument 

mainly because there is no such thing as raikiri flow. 

raikiri uses *RAITON* turns that shit into a blade using shape manipulation 
raiton flow just electricity no shape manipulation 

so yes raikiri>> raiton flow through a blade
but kakashi flowing raiton chakra through a blade would be no sharper than darui doing the same


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

Read the page, Gai specifically says it's Raikiri that Kakashi is using to cut through the rocks. And you ignored Sasuke's scan. Sasuke's raiton flow has never shown to do as much damage as Raikiri flow. Bee's hasn't, Darui's hasn't. Raikiri flow cut a huge boulder in half while regular raiton flow cuts where it touches or pierces where it touches. None have the AoE raikiri flow does.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Read the page, Gai specifically says it's Raikiri that Kakashi is using to cut through the rocks. And you ignored Sasuke's scan. Sasuke's raiton flow has never shown to do as much damage as Raikiri flow. Bee's hasn't, Darui's hasn't. Raikiri flow cut a huge boulder in half while regular raiton flow cuts where it touches or pierces where it touches. None have the AoE raikiri flow does.



wait there was a sasuke scan. my bad ill go take a look again 
yes because gai would know the difference. 

i dont believe so. also u ignore the fact that kakashi was flying with the *knife. * while bee tossed a pencil. 

knife >>>>>>>>>>>>.pencil in sharpness to begin with 

raikiri flow has no AoE at all. kakashi using a kunai cut the boulder. how is that AoE???

did others attempt to do the same and fail?

i saw the sasuke scan. yes he stabbed yamato. when raikiri is used the best it does is punch through a person. then again i did tell u and so did the manga specifically mention that raikiri>>>>>>>raiton flowing through a blade. that much is obvious i said that

but as to what kakashi used being raikiri flow, i doubt it. considering gai said raikiri, which could simply mean kakashi used raiton to cut through. since raikiri doesnt require a weapon


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

Look at the page before, Kakashi specifically used raikiri in one hand and then ran it through the kunai. And he didn't just cut the boulder in half, he stabbed it and it was cut in half. While everyone else merely cuts exactly where the blade is, Kakashi managed to cut the thing in half with a simple stab.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Once it's run through a kunai its raiton flow
Raikiri is raiton flow with shape manipulation into a blade
You understand that right 

Also raiton flow from others have never failed to slice the Boulder so I don't get how u just assume raiton flow is better 

Do you have scans of Darui failing to cut a boulder ?

Considering Kisame said killer bee raiton flow exceeded asuma hien 
And a casually tossed hien can slice slice through a boulder 

I don't see how what Kakashi did is impressive and beyond what other raiton users at that level can do


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Once it's run through a kunai its raiton flow
> Raikiri is raiton flow with shape manipulation into a blade
> You understand that right



Raikiri is leagues above raiton flow. Most Suiton users can spit water from their mouths, which of them can cut through the God tree's branches like Tobirama. 



> Also raiton flow from others have never failed to slice the Boulder so I don't get how u just assume raiton flow is better



When did I say they couldn't cut the boulder in half? They can. Can they stab something and split it in half? No, they have showings of their raiton flow cutting and never doing that or even close.



> Do you have scans of Darui failing to cut a boulder ?



Do you have scans of Kakashi failing to do a bijuu bomb? I can say he can do it but there's absolutely nothing saying or suggesting he can. Just because you can't prove he can't, doesn't mean he can.



> Considering Kisame said killer bee raiton flow exceeded asuma hien
> And a casually tossed hien can slice slice through a boulder



No he didn't. He said his raiton flow increased his penetrating force more than a fuuton. That doesn't mean every fuuton in existence. Fuuton is naturally better at cutting and piercing than raiton so assume casual fuutons. And notice the hole in the tree. His raiton flow was better than fuuton's and STILL didn't come close to doing the damage raikiri flow did. And logically that's the pinnacle of raiton flow. So yes Raikiri flow>raiton flow.



> I don't see how what Kakashi did is impressive and beyond what other raiton users at that level can do



He stabbed a boulder and it split in half. Notice that in the scan Kakashi was only halfway through the boulder and yet it was still cut through. Kakashi's kunai cut what it never even touched (Hence what I said about AoE) and it was a simple stab.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Yes raikiri is way above raiton flow . You are repeating what I said . I basically agreed to that . So don't get why u mention it again 

They have no showing saying they can't do it . Kakashi was noted as impressive for cutting the Boulder however it wasn't wspecially mentioned that u need raikiri to pull such off 

 not the same thing be more intelligent. We have no panels of shukaku using BD but he can obviously 
Here I am saying do u have feats showing Darui failing to do something which only requires raiton flow 

It doesn't mean every futton in existance it however means . Bee rairon was sharper than asuma futton which was my point 
Considering on panel Kisame has only ever faced one futton user . Would be odd to think Kisame was referring to another futton 
Again considering asuma is the only Ninja to flow wind chakra through his blade . It's obvious that it was a hien comparison 

Ok it was a simple stab yet hien with less cutting power than bee pencil could go through a boulder 
Hence my saying what Kakashi did was hardly impressive


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

Bee's pencil showed less penetrating force than Asuma's weakened Hien. Bee's went through a tree and stop as soon as it hit the ground.  Asuma's went through a tree and stopped inside a rock. Clearly Asuma's is better.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Bee pencil was A BLOODY pencil !!!
Why would it do more than a knife enhanced with chakra ??
Considering a pencil on its own cant cut through anytbing but paper while a knife can cut through several things 
I don't get ur confusion 

Asuma is apparently not better however . Kisame was talking about the enhancement of adding bee raiton flow to a blood pencil that allowed again a pencil to go through a tree . U take a pencil get 1mm thick cardboard and try poke a hole through it by tossing the pencil 

Then try tje same with a knife 

Let me know how that goes

Kisame once agin was referring to the quality of bee raiton flow that allowed a pencil to be a weapon in the first place . 

It's entitely silly to believe Kisame would be referring to anyone else when he has actually fought a wind user on panel


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## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2015)

And? Still worse than Asuma's flow. A sword would've done the same thing. The flow is what made it so strong no what it is.


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## Ashi (Mar 29, 2015)

Im pretty sure Kakashi using Lightning Blade on the Knife is basically the same principle as Sasuke and Bee's technique

I don't see how it's stronger


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> And? Still worse than Asuma's flow. A sword would've done the same thing. The flow is what made it so strong no what it is.




Flow enhances the piercing ability of the object 
Enhance being the key word 

Kishi had Kisame say it wasn't worse than asuma flow which obviously means more than childish bias 

Raikri flow is fan fic , I guess Kakashi lack of jutsu forced U to imagine one for him. Raiton flow is raiton flow 
Unless u got some feat of it slicing through a raiton flow sword then really U can't say Kakashi flowing chakra through a blade is sharper 

All I can agree to is raikiri >>> raiton flow as Kishi already stated .


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2015)

Kisame already admitted that Bee's Raiton pencil had a more penetrative force than a Futon. We also have to consider that Bee only flicked his pencil at Kisame indicating that he channeled far less Raiton than he would in a Katana and even far less chakra in comparison to Asuma's Chakra Blades.

 We've seen what Asuma's Chakra Blades can do and his Futon wasn't strong enough to break through Hidan's Scythe.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Actually his futton never made contact with hidan scythe
it would cut it up like butter 
the rest of ur post i agree with 

what do u think about the actual match ups though. tell me how each fight goes


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## Deer Lord (Mar 29, 2015)

Kakashi extreme diffs hihashi.
He goes 50:50 against darui.
loses to jiraiya.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

@deer lord explain the hiashi vs kakashi battle
how does he pull off the win while avoiding air palm which is not only the quickest attack in this encounter but the one with the most AoE and range


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## Ashi (Mar 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @deer lord explain the hiashi vs kakashi battle
> how does he pull off the win while avoiding air palm which is not only the quickest attack in this encounter but the one with the most AoE and range



The clear Speed and Durability advantage?

Clearly more versatile?

Do you really need an expert thesis on why Kakashi could beat Hiashi


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## Zef (Mar 29, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Kakashi extreme diffs hihashi.
> He goes 50:50 against darui.



I would switch that around.


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

@tensa yes I do 
Considerinr every single thing hiashi can use can cripple or kill Kakashi on contact 
Air Palm if he hits Kakashi he dies miserably 
Kaiten same thing 
Jukken same thing 

So yes I need a break down . Considering none of Kakashi techniques are faster than hiashi air Palm


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 30, 2015)

> Considerinr every single thing hiashi can use can cripple or kill Kakashi on contact



Juken isn't killing Kakashi who survived Shinra Tensei consecutively twice & Kakuzu's direct kick. 

Neji's Gentle Fist couldn't kill baby Hinata with multiple shots, Baby Naruto survived over 68 direct shots. 

Granted Hiashi's is stronger than PT.1 Neji's, Kakashi isn't dying to anyone's taijutsu in a single shot bar someone of Sakura's strength especially considering he's wearing a military flak jacket over his vital organs. 

Kakashi's body has decent endurance. 

Kaiten has a chance at really hurting him, Part I Hiashi's Kaiten was massive and sent a group of shinobi flying in pain while gushing blood. Considering he survived 2 consecutive ST's with a shoulder wound I doubt he's killed by it though. The Vacuum Palm obviously kills him on contact.


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > Juken isn't killing Kakashi who survived Shinra Tensei consecutively twice & Kakuzu's direct kick.
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Mar 30, 2015)

Kakashi has reactions on par with Minato. Prove Hiashi hits him when Kakashi also has precog. Kakashi sees vacuum palm coming a mile away and gets underground. Hiashi is then fucked. He can't do anything to Kakashi and Kakashi can make clones, plans, and whatever. Explain how Raikiri, Raiden, numerous suitons, 7 summons, kunai, Kage Bunshin feints, etc doesn't kill Hiashi. Hiashi is a close range fighter with 1 mid range attack. Kakashi has a multiple jutsu for every range and will control the fight how he see's fit. Just because Hiashi has a move that can kill doesn't mean shit if he's not fast enough or good enough to connect it and against Kakashi, a kage level nin WITHOUT sharingan, he's done (because he has it here).


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2015)

Gentle Fist inflicts internal damage that actually targets the body's Chakra Pathway System, meaning, if Kakashi does sustain damage from being hit by Hiashi's Gentle Fist, then Kakashi will not only suffer from damage to his organs, but also his chakra network being disrupted.

 Kakashi cannot handle being hit by Gentle Fist. After all, CS2 Kidoumaru was crippled by Neji's Gentle Fist without any physical contact.

 However, I agree with Ichliebe. With Precognition, I don't see him getting touched by Hiashi. After all, this is the guy who managed to fend off V2 Jin in CQC.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Kakaashi reactions on par with minato
I stopped reading there 


I see Kakashi being touched because the only way for him to do anything is to come into close range to finish hiashi
So that puts him in obvious danger. All Kakashi mid range Jutsu are utterly useless in this match and serve at best as distractions


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Kakaashi reactions on par with minato
> I stopped reading there
> 
> 
> ...



After stopping reading him you should begin reading the manga. Because Kakashi reacts on par with KCM Minato and moves nearly as fast as him against Black Zetsu (1). Both Minato and Kakashi could outspeed Obito's Kamui, one with Hiraishin another with Kamui. Kakashi had help but he won the Kamui speed and timing battle by himself, and he fought adult Obito not unexperienced kid Obito. Based on the fact that Minato couldn't react in time to use Hiraishin (that has instant activation) to teleport away after Madara kicked him on the unlucky Gaara, while Kakashi could react to Madara kicking Minato's arm + Rasengan on him inspite the sheer speed of the projectile kicked by the Juubi jinchuriki and the surprise effect of it that came suddenly destroying Gaara's sand wall that was blocking his line of sight.

As good as he is Hiashi isn't fast enough to keep up with Kakashi's CQC Sharingan precognition enhanced blitzes, sadly.



IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi has reactions on par with Minato. Prove Hiashi hits him when Kakashi also has precog. Kakashi sees vacuum palm coming a mile away and gets underground. Hiashi is then fucked. He can't do anything to Kakashi and Kakashi can make clones, plans, and whatever. Explain how Raikiri, Raiden, numerous suitons, 7 summons, kunai, Kage Bunshin feints, etc doesn't kill Hiashi. Hiashi is a close range fighter with 1 mid range attack. Kakashi has a multiple jutsu for every range and will control the fight how he see's fit. Just because Hiashi has a move that can kill doesn't mean shit if he's not fast enough or good enough to connect it and against Kakashi, a kage level nin WITHOUT sharingan, he's done (because he has it here).


This.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

> Raikiri19 said:
> 
> 
> > After stopping reading him you should begin reading the manga. Because Kakashi reacts on par with KCM Minato and moves nearly as fast as him against Black Zetsu (1). Both Minato and Kakashi could outspeed Obito's Kamui, one with Hiraishin another with Kamui. Kakashi had help but he won the Kamui speed and timing battle by himself, and he fought adult Obito not unexperienced kid Obito. Based on the fact that Minato couldn't react in time to use Hiraishin (that has instant activation) to teleport away after Madara kicked him on the unlucky Gaara, while Kakashi could react to Madara kicking Minato's arm + Rasengan on him inspite the sheer speed of the projectile kicked by the Juubi jinchuriki and the surprise effect of it that came suddenly destroying Gaara's sand wall that was blocking his line of sight.
> ...


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> > ok and gaara put up his sand wall in the same time as kakashi kamui. guess gaara sand wall got kamui speed . thats just as silly as claiming kakashi is as fast as minato because both of them are drawn in the same panel moving towards zetsu.
> > see how that works
> >
> > no doubt kakashi is faster never claimed he is. base lee is faster than neji 2. doesnt help base lee do anything but die. kakashi would never in his best dreams engage hiashi is cqc, he clearly smart enough to know thats a loosing battle. why engage such a person. i mean even genin knew not to do that. genin!!! and u think its kakashi thats going to engage in cqc suuuuuure thing
> ...


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > ou know, it was a coordined effort, Kakashi even advised Gaara to be ready just some panels before. Whereas Minato and Kakashi reacted at the same time to a sudden threat, when they never prepared to act together before. So you are really comparing apples to oranges to try to downplay the feat. And with the comparison of both Minato and Kakashi not reacting/not using the S/T and reacting/using the S/T against Madara's counterattack, and also the vs Obito feats, I think that to say their reactions are equals it's the very least.
> ...


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Raikiri19 said:
> 
> 
> > ok so one of ur better come backs. appreciated.
> ...


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > > Kakashi lands on his foot and fries the incoming Hiashi with Raijuu Tsuiga ().
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Mar 31, 2015)

You whole thing on Hiashi is vacuum palm and kaiten. Things Kakashi has knowledge on. 360 degree vision, KAKASHI KNOWS ABOUT IT. The blind spot, if Kidomaru knew, Kakashi does especially since he's gone on missions with hyuuga's. And Kakashi doesn't waste knowledge. He doesn't forget like Naruto. This is the man who countered the mist, this is the man who fought Itachi toe-to-toe and outperformed him (bar MS) in part 1, the man who figured out and countered Deva's powers, the man who took Kakuzu's blood after he though he killed him (raikiri through the heart) just cause it MIGHT have come in handy, the man who beat Obito (someone only 2 people in existence have ever hit since gaining the MS, both Minato and Kakashi), the man who made the plan to beat FUCKING KAGUYA, he outplayed Madara strategically (Madara made a plan to brainwash a 13 year old kid to take 9 bijuu's, use the rinnegan to have gedo mazou seal the bijuu, and then revive him, and then become the juubi jin, and despite every thing happening the exact opposite still got EXACTLY what he wanted), the man who became a Hokage without sharingan (WHICH HE HAS HERE), and you're arguing that a jounin with 2 jutsu, no good reaction or speed feats, no special intelligence, and nothing above jounin level really wins.

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> You whole thing on Hiashi is vacuum palm and kaiten. Things Kakashi has knowledge on. 360 degree vision, KAKASHI KNOWS ABOUT IT. The blind spot, if Kidomaru knew, Kakashi does especially since he's gone on missions with hyuuga's. And Kakashi doesn't waste knowledge. He doesn't forget like Naruto. This is the man who countered the mist, this is the man who fought Itachi toe-to-toe and outperformed him (bar MS) in part 1, the man who figured out and countered Deva's powers, the man who took Kakuzu's blood after he though he killed him (raikiri through the heart) just cause it MIGHT have come in handy, the man who beat Obito (someone only 2 people in existence have ever hit since gaining the MS, both Minato and Kakashi), the man who made the plan to beat FUCKING KAGUYA, he outplayed Madara strategically (Madara made a plan to brainwash a 13 year old kid to take 9 bijuu's, use the rinnegan to have gedo mazou seal the bijuu, and then revive him, and then become the juubi jin, and despite every thing happening the exact opposite still got EXACTLY what he wanted), the man who became a Hokage without sharingan (WHICH HE HAS HERE), and you're arguing that a jounin with 2 jutsu, no good reaction or speed feats, no special intelligence, and nothing above jounin level really wins.
> 
> ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?



yup. battledome here not a hype section. good mental break down. i guess u got no actual come backs hence the dumb post. concession accepted 

obito and kakashi are 1 trick ponies though 
no kamui and they drop tiers and tiers in power

thats 1 jutsu right there 

btw while we are going on about hype darui in DB4 is stated to have overwhelming chakra 

↑With the stolen Shichiseiken, he mows down Ginkaku!
With an *overwhelming amount *of chakra, he even masters
the treasured tool.

Translated by Seelentau

kakashi better put an end to him quick before darui overwhelms kakashi with superior chakra. 

oh one more thing. how many jutsu does kakashi have without kamui that are described as super fast?

Db translation for air palm 

Push the air and shoot it at enemy
*A secret Hyuuga super-fast palm attack!!** SUPER FAST! * odd ST isnt even described as super fast. 

Taking aim at the enemy's vitals and releasing an ultrahigh-speed palm thrust!! * HITS THE VITALS!!*

*A "vacuum shell" compressed using the "Gentle Fist" is shot out at the enemy's vitals under tremendous pressure!! A short to mid-range attack that more than covers the weakness of taijutsu*


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## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yup. battledome here not a hype section. good mental break down. i guess u got no actual come backs hence the dumb post. concession accepted
> 
> obito and kakashi are 1 trick ponies though
> no kamui and they drop tiers and tiers in power



Hashi without mokuton drops tiers. Kisame without samehada drops tiers. Gai without gates, Tsunade without healing, etc. Quit whining, it's their jutsu. And call Kakashi a 1 trick pony when he has more jutsu than anyone in the manga, has used more ninja tools than anyone, and has showcased more affinity's than 99% of the verse is fucking retarded and you should fell bad.



> thats 1 jutsu right there



Hyuuga without vacuum palm and what happens? 1 jutsu right there.



> btw while we are going on about hype darui in DB4 is stated to have overwhelming chakra
> 
> ↑With the stolen Shichiseiken, he mows down Ginkaku!
> With an *overwhelming amount *of chakra, he even masters
> ...



List of his jutsu's used against Obito.

Kage Bunshin + Raiden
Kage Bunshin + Raiden
Kamui
Raikiri-kunai throw
Kamui
Kamui
Kamui
Doton: Doryūheki
Kamui
Raikiri

That's how much he used BEFORE Kurama gave him any chakra. That's also the order he used them in.

Kage bunshin's take half of the user's chakra. So that's less than 25% at the beginning. So double it, then double it again and you have Kakashi's real chakra.

5x2=10x2=20 kamui's
1x2=2x2=4 dotons
Raikiri is harder. He used 3 after the bunshins so 3x2=6x2=12. Then one at 50 so 2 more.

So Kakashi's normal chakra is
20 kamui's.
14 raikiri's.
4 dotons.

Good luck Darui.



> oh one more thing. how many jutsu does kakashi have without kamui that are described as super fast?



Chidori, Raikiri (two different jutsu), Water shark Missile (copied from Kisame in part 1, so 3.



> Db translation for air palm
> 
> Push the air and shoot it at enemy
> *A secret Hyuuga super-fast palm attack!!** SUPER FAST! * odd ST isnt even described as super fast.
> ...



1 jutsu compared to Kakashi's entire arsenal, do I need to point out Kakashi cutting lightning in half. O wait, this is where we use feats and not to ones where Kakashi has more stamina, better intelligence, reactions on par with KCM Minato, more jutsu than ANYONE, 3 affinity's, 7 summons, sensing, seals, genjutsu, AND MORE.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Hashi without mokuton drops tiers. Kisame without samehada drops tiers. Gai without gates, Tsunade without healing, etc. Quit whining, it's their jutsu. And call Kakashi a 1 trick pony when he has more jutsu than anyone in the manga, has used more ninja tools than anyone, and has showcased more affinity's than 99% of the verse is fucking retarded and you should fell bad.



truth hurts 



> Hyuuga without vacuum palm and what happens? 1 jutsu right there.



cry for me 




> List of his jutsu's used against Obito.
> 
> Kage Bunshin + Raiden
> Kage Bunshin + Raiden
> ...


all bar kamui arent hard to block or dodge for hiashi or darui 



> That's how much he used BEFORE Kurama gave him any chakra. That's also the order he used them in.


still less chakra than darui



> Kage bunshin's take half of the user's chakra. So that's less than 25% at the beginning. So double it, then double it again and you have Kakashi's real chakra.
> 
> 5x2=10x2=20 kamui's
> 1x2=2x2=4 dotons
> ...



overwhelming chakra disagrees. sadly kishi puts darui chakra levels as overwhelming and not kakashi. darui chakra>kakashi chakra. simple. all ur math is ignored by myself and kishi. most importantly kishi



> Chidori, Raikiri (two different jutsu), Water shark Missile (copied from Kisame in part 1, so 3.



all hardly difficult to block for anyone of hiashi level or above. u would have to be asuma level and below for those jutsu to be an issue 



> 1 jutsu compared to Kakashi's entire arsenal, do I need to point out Kakashi cutting lightning in half. O wait, this is where we use feats and not to ones where Kakashi has more stamina, better intelligence, reactions on par with KCM Minato, more jutsu than ANYONE, 3 affinity's, 7 summons, sensing, seals, genjutsu, AND MORE.



ah that pointless hype. u started it. though i dont see any lightning bolt in this match. why would he be cutting them 
7 summons entirely useless in this match up. 

try harder. i see u had no counter to air palm  concession?


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2015)

Prove vacuum palm and Hiashi are fast enough to hit someone with precog (so he sees it before Hiashi even does anything), and reactions on par with KCM Minato. You can't, because the idea that it does is fucking stupid.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Prove vacuum palm and Hiashi are fast enough to hit someone with precog (so he sees it before Hiashi even does anything), and reactions on par with KCM Minato. You can't, because the idea that it does is fucking stupid.



obito was surprised by its speed and power when hinata used it. obito got 2 dojutsu to boot. 
again all that got nothing on kishi DB statements and feats which u like to ignore once they dont involve kakashi 

kisame couldnt avoid it. sent juubi tail in motion despite how far hiashi was from the tail itself. which means it crossed that distance then sent the tail flying 

and again we go tthe fact that kishi emphazises its super fast. u say kamui dont travel because kishi draws no lines of it moving from kakashi to the target. 

well show me where those travel lines were when hiashi used it on juubi tail. or hianta

not comparing it to kamui. but ur argument is i like kakashi more therefore he cant be hit. bla bla bla 

you have yet to counter any points bar saying kakashi is faster and smarter and you like him more. you say raikiri good tell me that helps him put hiashi down when he got kaiten and raikiri involves being at arm reach from hiashi. 

bunshin- 360 vision. surprise attacks are unlikely 

vs countering my points u went to hype thats fairly irrelevant. and listing kakashi jutsu like i dont know them. despite all that darui still has more chakra. 

darui and Ei were drawn in the same panel i guess i can say darui got Ei speed as well.  see how that works?

note: bijuudama is something obito called slow. despite its very good speed feats. none of that was said about air palm, which again kishi describes that it more than compensates for their taijutsu style.


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## richard lewis (Apr 2, 2015)

VS Hiashi
Hiashi will be give kakashi a good fight but I just don't see him winning. As others have stated kakashi is faster than him and should be able to keep his distance and avoid CQC combat. Kakashi should be able to dodge or block any of hiashi's ranged attacks and a raikiri chain should be able to cut through his defenses and put him down without kakashi getting to close and risking getting hit with gentle fist. Kakashi is smarter and more versatile, and has a gotten a lot more panel time to showcase his abilities, Hiashi is just not on the same level feat wise.

VS Durai
Again kakashi is just all around superior here. He's smarter, has faster jutsu execution speed, better speed/reactions, better taijutsu, Bushin feats,genjutsu. He simply has more tools on his belt than Durai along with better speed/reactions and greater inteligence, he wins decisively mid diff.

VS Jiraiya 
This could go either way but I'd lean towards Jiraiya high diff. Jiraiya's boss summons are going to give kakashi some serious problems, and w/o kamui kakashi has no way of escaping Jiraiya's toad goured should he get captured. Kakashi does have the tools to put down a boss summon but it will be tough and flit Jiraiya starts throwing around AoE jutsu life gamayu endon I'm not sure kakashi could escape it.


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## Santoryu (Apr 2, 2015)

Are you being serious? Kakashi *wins *all the matches *convincingl*y. You're seriously pitting a character than goes toe to toe with version 2 Jinjuriki and the likes of Obito against characters that would look completely out of place in a similar scenario?.

Jiraiya is the only that could push him in this match. Kakashi could take Darui and Hiashi simultaneously, albeit with difficulty. Make this early part 2 Kakashi and the likes of  Darui would have a chance at least.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

richard lewis said:


> VS Hiashi
> Hiashi will be give kakashi a good fight but I just don't see him winning. As others have stated kakashi is faster than him and should be able to keep his distance and avoid CQC combat. Kakashi should be able to dodge or block any of hiashi's ranged attacks and a raikiri chain should be able to cut through his defenses and put him down without kakashi getting to close and risking getting hit with gentle fist. Kakashi is smarter and more versatile, and has a gotten a lot more panel time to showcase his abilities, Hiashi is just not on the same level feat wise.



raikiri chain involves getting close . 
also u are assuming that can breach kaiten. on what basis ? the thing is designed to repel chakra. was called an ultimate defense. and needs to be overwhelmed. 

 sorry how does kakashi block air palm that sent juubi tail flying. which can be used to aim vitals. not only is it described as super fast in DB3 but  by feats. it just hits the person. neji is a shit stain compared to kisame. kisame couldnt avoid it. granted samehada absorbed it. 
kakashi is smarter but i dont see why people keep bringing it up. 

hiashi doesnt need to be smart. he can see 360 degrees all round. and has the faster attack of the 2. despite being slower. 

feat wise sharingan kakashi has done nothing nearly as impressive as moving the juubi tail. just saying 



> VS Durai
> Again kakashi is just all around superior here. He's smarter, has faster jutsu execution speed, better speed/reactions, better taijutsu, Bushin feats,genjutsu. He simply has more tools on his belt than Durai along with better speed/reactions and greater inteligence, he wins decisively mid diff.



darui got something kakashi doesnt. more chakra. he can chain up more jutsu back to back and in a larger scale. its odd how people forget kishi said his chakra is overwhelming. kakashi can be fast all he wants but outside going underground he isnt evading 30+ ranton beams coming his way 



> VS Jiraiya
> This could go either way but I'd lean towards Jiraiya high diff. Jiraiya's boss summons are going to give kakashi some serious problems, and w/o kamui kakashi has no way of escaping Jiraiya's toad goured should he get captured. Kakashi does have the tools to put down a boss summon but it will be tough and flit Jiraiya starts throwing around AoE jutsu life gamayu endon I'm not sure kakashi could escape it.


[/QUOTE]

jiriaya wins decisively . FCD and bye bye kakashi. 
also jiriaya can gain distance on kakashi. he is at odds here.


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## richard lewis (Apr 2, 2015)

The 





Icegaze said:


> raikiri chain involves getting close .
> also u are assuming that can breach kaiten. on what basis ? the thing is designed to repel chakra. was called an ultimate defense. and needs to be overwhelmed.



I don't recall kaiten ever being referred to as an ultimate defense, to my knowledge only susanoo and gaara's sand have ever received that title. 
Regardless kakashi raikiri chain can extend a good 30 feet at least and can cut through a V2 jinchuriki cloak [1] so now he doesn't have to get close to Hiashi to use it and unless you can post scan of kaiten showcasing tanking feats above a V2 Jin kakashi's raikiri chain cuts it clean in half.



Icegaze said:


> sorry how does kakashi block air palm that sent juubi tail flying. which can be used to aim vitals. not only is it described as super fast in DB3 but  by feats. it just hits the person. neji is a shit stain compared to kisame. kisame couldnt avoid it. granted samehada absorbed it.
> kakashi is smarter but i dont see why people keep bringing it up.
> 
> hiashi doesnt need to be smart. he can see 360 degrees all round. and has the faster attack of the 2. despite being slower.



I don't see why KAKASHI can't simply dodge the air Palm, I don't recall the juubi tails being all that fast and kakashi has avoided more AOE attacks such as kakuzu's elemental attacks in past. Kakashi has V2 Jin lvl speed plus sharingan precog.

KAkashi is faster than kisame so kisame not being able to dodge something doesn't mean much here. However kisame often just tanks or absorbs attacks and doesn't bother to dodge them unless they pose a significant threat, note to mention he was fighting 4 people at once. So I doubt that he couldn't dodge it if he wanted to but the combination of being attacked by multiple enemy's plus the fact that samehada was able to absorb it made absorbing more advantageous than dodging.



Icegaze said:


> feat wise sharingan kakashi has done nothing nearly as impressive as moving the juubi tail. just saying



Kakashi doesn't have raw power attacks to move a juubi tale because he's not a raw power fighter. However he's more than fast enough to just dodge a juubi tail so he has no need to block/deflect it.



Icegaze said:


> darui got something kakashi doesnt. more chakra. he can chain up more jutsu back to back and in a larger scale. its odd how people forget kishi said his chakra is overwhelming. kakashi can be fast all he wants but outside going underground he isnt evading 30+ ranton beams coming his way



First off Durai has never shown the ability to use 30 ranton beams at once. But regardless Bushin feats can counter stuff like that. Durai has no answer to kakashi's genjutsu and simply can't execute jutsu with the same level of speed and efficiency. Go back and reread kakashi's part1 fight with itachi and look at how fast they were executing jutsu, making clones, ect... These guys can make clones in mid combat and even top notch ninja like pain can't follow. There simply on another level from the speed and accuracy Durai has ever shown. Kakashi will just out manuver him.



Icegaze said:


> jiriaya wins decisively . FCD and bye bye kakashi.
> also jiriaya can gain distance on kakashi. he is at odds here.



Kakashi would slice a hole clear through the toad with raikiri is Jiraiya tried that crap. However if Jiraiya bring out boss summons early on in the fight and starts spaming AOE jutsu he will likely win. But if he tries to engage kakashi in CQC he's a dead man, generally boss summons aren't Jiraiya's go to move unless his opponent is also using a boss summon so he could get killed early on b4 he gets a chance to summon.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

richard lewis said:


> The
> 
> I don't recall kaiten ever being referred to as an ultimate defense, to my knowledge only susanoo and gaara's sand have ever received that title.
> Regardless kakashi raikiri chain can extend a good 30 feet at least and can cut through a V2 jinchuriki cloak [1] so now he doesn't have to get close to Hiashi to use it and unless you can post scan of kaiten showcasing tanking feats above a V2 Jin kakashi's raikiri chain cuts it clean in half.



i suggest u read the neji vs naruto fight again. it was very direclty compared to gaara defense. 
not regardless. go take a look then get back to me. 

[1]

bottom panel 

yes it extends a good 30 feet. please look at the size of kaiten hiashi used in part 1. then realize that against the juubi 2 kaiten was the size of its tail. do u realize how massive that is. when several wood spikes could come out of its finger each spike twice the size of any human yet looked like pube hairs compared to its finger. 

kaiten tanked juubi tail. has been called absolute defense. and has only ever been overwhlemed never breached. neji didnt even complete his kaiten against naruto. its easier to cut V2 jin shrouds which have no durablity feats or statements from kishi than something kishi called an absolute defense and whose purpose is to deflect chakra. not the same thing buddy





> I don't see why KAKASHI can't simply dodge the air Palm, I don't recall the juubi tails being all that fast and kakashi has avoided more AOE attacks such as kakuzu's elemental attacks in past. Kakashi has V2 Jin lvl speed plus sharingan precog.



read up on air palm. look at its AoE. thats all i ask. kakuzu attack arent described as super fast by the author himself. i am not saying kakashi cant dodge them but u seem to think its some walk in the park to do so. despite that attack being the fastest in this match up 



> KAkashi is faster than kisame so kisame not being able to dodge something doesn't mean much here. However kisame often just tanks or absorbs attacks and doesn't bother to dodge them unless they pose a significant threat, note to mention he was fighting 4 people at once. So I doubt that he couldn't dodge it if he wanted to but the combination of being attacked by multiple enemy's plus the fact that samehada was able to absorb it made absorbing more advantageous than dodging.



it does considering it was a neji who pulled it off. neji is <<<<<<<<<,hiashi. 




> Kakashi doesn't have raw power attacks to move a juubi tale because he's not a raw power fighter. However he's more than fast enough to just dodge a juubi tail so he has no need to block/deflect it.



and so was hiashi. hiashi deflected it to save people. thats all i am saying. kakashi wont have been able to save those people without kamui. 



> First off Durai has never shown the ability to use 30 ranton beams at once. But regardless Bushin feats can counter stuff like that. Durai has no answer to kakashi's genjutsu and simply can't execute jutsu with the same level of speed and efficiency. Go back and reread kakashi's part1 fight with itachi and look at how fast they were executing jutsu, making clones, ect... These guys can make clones in mid combat and even top notch ninja like pain can't follow. There simply on another level from the speed and accuracy Durai has ever shown. Kakashi will just out manuver him.



no he hasnt he showed about 15 or more. casually. but yh lets claim he cant make 30.  
kakashi genjutsu skill isnt all that much to be retconned with though. the only time he used it was against obito. in their shabby its blatantly a genjutsu contest. i dont see how that would fool darui 
darui showed speed that displayed he wasnt much slower than V1 Ei. dont casually discount someone with overwhelming chakra and decent speed. who has a jutsu that again gives him better range in fact much better range than kakashi jutsu. 



> Kakashi would slice a hole clear through the toad with raikiri is Jiraiya tried that crap. However if Jiraiya bring out boss summons early on in the fight and starts spaming AOE jutsu he will likely win. But if he tries to engage kakashi in CQC he's a dead man, generally boss summons aren't Jiraiya's go to move unless his opponent is also using a boss summon so he could get killed early on b4 he gets a chance to summon.



tried what crap? i have no idea what u are talking about 
why would he try to engage kakashi in cqc?


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> read up on air palm. look at its AoE. thats all i ask. kakuzu attack arent described as super fast by the author himself. i am not saying kakashi cant dodge them but u seem to think its some walk in the park to do so. despite that attack being the fastest in this match up.



I smell HORSESHIT.



> Lightning Release: False Darkness* (雷遁・偽暗, Raiton: Gian)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Kakuzu
> 
> ...



In an instant and next to impossible to dodge and "instant" yet Kakashi jumped infront of it and countered it.



> Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work* (火遁・頭刻苦, Katon: Zukokku)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Kakuzu
> 
> ...



Just a moment and the area is covered, and difficult to evade yet Kakashi both dodged and countered it. 



> Wind Release: Pressure Damage* (風遁・圧害, Fuuton: Atsugai)
> Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
> User: Kakuzu
> 
> ...



Sudden and difficult to predict yet Kakashi dodged it DESPITE being mid air fighting Hidan and it being a surprise attack. And it was a slower Kakashi than the Kakashi here. 

Don't make claims like you checked the databook, it's easy to fact check when the databook is translated in the section above the battledome.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> I smell HORSESHIT.



take ur face out of kakashi ass. 



> In an instant and next to impossible to dodge and "instant" yet Kakashi jumped infront of it and countered it.



countered! not dodged. how does he counter air palm ? point still remains that attack gets to him and air palm does before he runs at the user with raikiri. 



> Just a moment and the area is covered, and difficult to evade yet Kakashi both dodged and countered it.



was shown to be slower than air palm. try again




> Sudden and difficult to predict yet Kakashi dodged it DESPITE being mid air fighting Hidan and it being a surprise attack. And it was a slower Kakashi than the Kakashi here.



air palm uses no seals 2. and was shown to be faster. Also described as super fast 



> Don't make claims like you checked the databook, it's easy to fact check when the databook is translated in the section above the battledome.



dont whine. all am saying is hiashi has the faster attack of the 2
again not saying it wtf pawns kakashi. but its the fastest attack in play. so dont casually ignore it

can u do that? will kakashi be mad at you?

btw with all the DB statements and all that i have not forgotten that raiden the words used to describe it where god speed thrust. unlike you i am not goign to just look at it from 1 perspective. 
However even with a good speed thrust. he must make a clone first.something that makes it ultimately not much faster than hiashi attack which only requires him to move his hands or thrust his hand forward. or throw a punch if u will

Dont forget also that kakashi knows of hakke triagam field and range. its not something he will willingly enter. 

*All i am trying to get across is yes kakashi is better but i think hiashi and darui advantage over kakashi is being ignored*

u can be a better, smarter fighter, with swords, lances, short swords etc. if i got a bow and arrow i have the advantage over you. means i am on the offensive and you on the defensive. especially if u can only avoid my bow and not block it. 
Both darui and hiashi AoE and attack range exceeds kakashi's. they dont need to be smart to fight at a distance. even easier for darui he got overwhelming chakra levels. laser circus is fast and can also blind the target. it also has ridiculous range and is guided. darui can try to exhaust kakashi knowing he got more stamina vs trying to win outright. Darui can block all kakashi attacks with his own which are stronger. 

Also yes raiden is nice it cut V2 jin chakra arms. both kaiten and hakke deflected something far far far stronger and far far far larger. so i dont see why hiashi would look out of place fighting the jins. when an air palm of the size he used against juubi tail would send them flying.
 darui did fight V2 kinkaku. anything kyuubi>>>>>>>>>>>>>the other jin's by far. So no these 2 wont look out of place fighting V2 jin from much weaker bijuu.

Doesnt mean they would win and its not like kakashi won. but lasting as long as he did isnt as issue at all.



Santoryu said:


> Are you being serious? Kakashi *wins *all the matches *convincingl*y. You're seriously pitting a character than goes toe to toe with version 2 Jinjuriki and the likes of Obito against characters that would look completely out of place in a similar scenario?.
> 
> Jiraiya is the only that could push him in this match. Kakashi could take Darui and Hiashi simultaneously, albeit with difficulty. Make this early part 2 Kakashi and the likes of  Darui would have a chance at least.



So kakashi going toe to toe with V2 jin's is impressive. but having the ability to deflect juubi tail on 2 occasions is not?

explain that logic. because if hiashi can deflect an attack or anything from the juubi which is 100's or 1000's of times stronger than those jins. They are shit stains to gedo mazo which is a shit stain to juubi. 
 then what exactly would they be doing in V2 that would be too strong for hiashi to deflect? i really want to understand that logic. 
Because somehow gai in 6th gate kicks gedo and trips it.
 reaction: omg gai is strong. 
yet hiashi deflects an attack from something several times stronger but V2 jins attacks would put him out of place. considering all those jins did was direct taijutsu attacks and chakra arms  

darui fought kinkaku. kinkaku is much stronger than those jin's by definition of having kyuubi chakra. i think thats obvious dont you? 

early part 2 or late part 2 kakashi. same guy. no difference at all. bar kamui which isnt allowed in this match up. 

Every single attack kakashi can throw at them they can counter. not one attack from kakashi is 2 strong. not 1

so how he somehow can casually beat them or worse beat both  

2 vs 1 the shit on him entirely


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## IchLiebe (Apr 3, 2015)

Shouten Kisame was hit by vacuum palm and took 0 damage. And in the war when they used it, look at the mid right and bottom right panel. It's not instant like you say. They take a stance before they use it every time. Neji did against shouten kisame as well.

And I'm not saying Kakashi counters it. He likely goes underground like he does 99% of the time.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Shouten Kisame was hit by vacuum palm and took 0 damage. And in the war when they used it, look at the mid right and bottom right panel. It's not instant like you say. They take a stance before they use it every time. Neji did against shouten kisame as well.
> 
> And I'm not saying Kakashi counters it. He likely goes underground like he does 99% of the time.



samehada absorbed it. its chakra. hence why he asked neji if he did anything to mock him. 
cant take damage from an attack that was absorbed .you know 

i never said it was instant! never have i used those words. its obviously not. 

yes he goes underground precisely. i said that a while back. now u talking normally. good. nice post. 

it isnt instant. its however a quick an easy jutsu to use. no seals and its a fast technique. yes they take a stance. of course they do. however the travel speed of the jutsu is quite impressive. the stance they take is no slower than them throwing a punch. 

The issue is kakashi got a plethora of jutsu sadly only 2 can kill hiashi. raiden and raikiri. the others stun or push him away. 

Now raiden and raikiri can still be blocked however. so this is far from an easy match.

kakashi must win with trickery however thats haaaaard! when the person u trying to trick got 360 degree vision. attacks from behind wont even be all that effective. Doesnt mean he can never be hit from behind however its very very unlikely

ill rep you. you sound much better when ur posts dont stink of kakashi cant be touched bla bla


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## IchLiebe (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> samehada absorbed it. its chakra. hence why he asked neji if he did anything to mock him.
> cant take damage from an attack that was absorbed .you know



He never asked Neji anything. He got pushed back and then Tenten threw an explosive ball at him. There was never anything like you say.



> i never said it was instant! never have i used those words. its obviously not.



All you've been talking about is how fast it is. You talk like Kakashi can't do anything despite having reactions on par with KCM Minato, precog, and faster than Hiashi.



> it isnt instant. its however a quick an easy jutsu to use. no seals and its a fast technique. yes they take a stance. of course they do. however the travel speed of the jutsu is quite impressive. the stance they take is no slower than them throwing a punch.



Kakashi can get jutsu off faster than that. He kept up with Itachi in part 1 (they both used 3 jutsu in the same time frame and it was in quick succession). And it takes longer than throwing a punch. They basically have to charge it up. Kakashi can get a suiton jutsu off by then.



> The issue is kakashi got a plethora of jutsu sadly only 2 can kill hiashi. raiden and raikiri. the others stun or push him away.



Suitons can kill. And they jutsu are to help him win. It means he has that much more to do to achieve victory when Hiashi has 1 that Kakashi is fast enough to dodge all day. 



> Now raiden and raikiri can still be blocked however. so this is far from an easy match.



Can be doesn't mean will be. Remember KAkashi is faster and better. He figured out Deva's power and countered it, here he has full knowledge on Hiashi and there's no way Kakashi can't counter byakugan.



> kakashi must win with trickery however thats haaaaard! when the person u trying to trick got 360 degree vision. attacks from behind wont even be all that effective. Doesnt mean he can never be hit from behind however its very very unlikely



350 degree because of the blind spot. All Kakashi has to do is one jutsu, a suiton so Hiashi starts spinning and uses Kaiten and then Hiashi is done because there's a clone with Raikiri prepped waiting for him to stop because then Hiashi can't do anything.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> He never asked Neji anything. He got pushed back and then Tenten threw an explosive ball at him. There was never anything like you say.



your right. my bad. 



> All you've been talking about is how fast it is. You talk like Kakashi can't do anything despite having reactions on par with KCM Minato, precog, and faster than Hiashi.



its fast is all i said. u jumping to the conclusion that kakashi cant do anything is urs. also he got nothing on par with KCM minato. any statements from kishi to that effect? if u mean the one panel they moving together u would have to prove minato was moving full speed. being drawn in the same panel doesnt remotely make them as fast as each other. if they were kishi would have been sure to mention such. sadly this didnt happen and remain in the realm of ur fan fic 



> Kakashi can get jutsu off faster than that. He kept up with Itachi in part 1 (they both used 3 jutsu in the same time frame and it was in quick succession). And it takes longer than throwing a punch. They basically have to charge it up. Kakashi can get a suiton jutsu off by then.



. neji basically moved his hand and the jutsu hit kisame.And in the war when they used it, look at the mid right and bottom right panel.

granted samehada did not absorb it at all. neji isnt hiashi though. seeing that hiashi even said their palms werent strong enough to deflect wood spikes yet he deflecting a tail 

 its not some oh yh imma charge up jutsu. they have to take a stance fair enough but charge up. dont lie to urself



> Suitons can kill. And they jutsu are to help him win. It means he has that much more to do to achieve victory when Hiashi has 1 that Kakashi is fast enough to dodge all day.



feats of this please. or any implication of it. go on ill wait 



> Can be doesn't mean will be. Remember KAkashi is faster and better. He figured out Deva's power and countered it, here he has full knowledge on Hiashi and there's no way Kakashi can't counter byakugan.



true and true. i never said he cant. i said its hard to do



> 350 degree because of the blind spot. All Kakashi has to do is one jutsu, a suiton so Hiashi starts spinning and uses Kaiten and then Hiashi is done because there's a clone with Raikiri prepped waiting for him to stop because then Hiashi can't do anything.



359 degrees. try again

sorry why cant hiashi counter a suiton with hakke? real confused.  troll maybe?

unless maybe u are trying to claim the suiton got more force in it than say juubi tail.  i hope not. 

u back to ur old ways u didnt last long. shame


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## IchLiebe (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> its fast is all i said. u jumping to the conclusion that kakashi cant do anything is urs. also he got nothing on par with KCM minato. any statements from kishi to that effect? if u mean the one panel they moving together u would have to prove minato was moving full speed. being drawn in the same panel doesnt remotely make them as fast as each other. if they were kishi would have been sure to mention such. sadly this didnt happen and remain in the realm of ur fan fic



You talking about superfast and all kinds of other shit when people say Kakashi dodges or counters is basically saying Kakashi can't do it.

The Kakashi that fought Obito, the same Obito that blocked Naruto's KCM fullspeed shunshin, cut Kaguya's arm off, combo'd with 8th gate Gai and Minato several times. Yeah he has several feats suggesting he has just as good reactions (not speed so it doesn't matter if Minato was moving fullspeed or not, they both reacted to the same thing at the same time when they were both surprised by it).



> . neji basically moved his hand and the jutsu hit kisame.And in the war when they used it, look at the mid right and bottom right panel.



Page before Neji took a stance.



> granted samehada did not absorb it at all. neji isnt hiashi though. seeing that hiashi even said their palms werent strong enough to deflect wood spikes yet he deflecting a tail



He never said that, he said they wouldn't be fast enough. Despite it being the fastest jutsu in existence like you hype it.



> its not some oh yh imma charge up jutsu. they have to take a stance fair enough but charge up. dont lie to urself



Yes, they have to gather the chakra for it, aka charge it up.



> feats of this please. or any implication of it. go on ill wait



Ma cut a summon in half with a suiton. Tobirama was cutting god tree limbs down with a suiton despite it absorbing chakra constantly.



> true and true. i never said he cant. i said its hard to do



It's hard to hit Deva in 5 seconds but Kakashi did (Asura blocked it but it was the biggest pile of shit in the manga, plot). He countered Kaguya. He's way better than you're giving credit.



> 359 degrees. try again



AND?



> sorry why cant hiashi counter a suiton with hakke? real confused.  troll maybe?



Kakashi gets the suiton off first or fires multiple.



> unless maybe u are trying to claim the suiton got more force in it than say juubi tail.  i hope not.
> 
> u back to ur old ways u didnt last long. shame



Never said that.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> You talking about superfast and all kinds of other shit when people say Kakashi dodges or counters is basically saying Kakashi can't do it.



i agree he dodges it. when did i say he cant? counters? how?



> The Kakashi that fought Obito, the same Obito that blocked Naruto's KCM fullspeed shunshin, cut Kaguya's arm off, combo'd with 8th gate Gai and Minato several times. Yeah he has several feats suggesting he has just as good reactions (not speed so it doesn't matter if Minato was moving fullspeed or not, they both reacted to the same thing at the same time when they were both surprised by it).



of course he has good reactions. but when u start making false claims gotta correct you. gaara did combos with 8th gate gai and minato as well. u wouldnt claim he got minato type reactions now would u




> Page before Neji took a stance.



neji landed after jumping. thats hardly a stance




> He never said that, he said they wouldn't be fast enough. Despite it being the fastest jutsu in existence like you hype it.



so you claiming it must be the fastest jutsu in existence to hit kakashi? haha that wank at its best. its over 9000
he said they wouldn't be fast enough.

lol am not like u. i dont wank a technique simply cuz i like the character. i never claimed it is the fastest jutsu in existence
. stop being butthurt.  also hinata and neji's hakke <<<<<<<<<<<hiashi's so ur point again isnt there. 

All ive ever said is its the fastest jutsu in play something you havent made any attempt at refuting



> Yes, they have to gather the chakra for it, aka charge it up.



ok so raikrii needs charging up, so does kamui imma get that salt now . so does every kakashi jutsu. you know since he has to gather chakra for it. 

your point is what exactly?



> Ma cut a summon in half with a suiton. Tobirama was cutting god tree limbs down with a suiton despite it absorbing chakra constantly


.

kakashi has no such suiton. why bring them up?




> It's hard to hit Deva in 5 seconds but Kakashi did (Asura blocked it but it was the biggest pile of shit in the manga, plot). He countered Kaguya. He's way better than you're giving credit.



actually he failed to hit deva. asura jumped in. and yes kakashi had the tools to hit him. i dont get ur point 




> AND?




360 degree vision allowed a path slower than kakashi to avoid his raikiri.

he said they wouldn't be fast enough.

 unless u want to claim kakashi is slower than asura just to be a troll here. 
now can u honestly say u dont see the advantage of having 359 degree vision. 1 degree difference? which can be easily compensated by pushing chakra in that direction or forming seals? like Ma and Pa said and like neji showed. You really dont get how 360 degree vision helps here? really??? despite kishi showing you. 

guess the next claim would be but asura is a speedstar he is so so so fast he avoided kakashi. he must be faster than hiashi. go on claim that. 





> Kakashi gets the suiton off first or fires multiple.



not when they require seals. also his suitons are pointless. and have no speed feats or anything suggesting they can breach hiashi defense or kill him. At least be a troll and claim kakashi blitz with rakiri for the win. thats far easier to swallow than this imaginary suiton u got goign on




> Never said that.



so why bring suiton up? they are pointless


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## IchLiebe (Apr 3, 2015)

1. In part 2 Kakashi's handseals where so fast Naruto and Sakura couldn't see them, so he can get it off before Hiashi gets vacuum palm off.

2. When you bring up all that speed hype in the databook when someone says Kakashi dodges/counters/blocks then you are basically disagreeing with them. You then went on to say Kakashi didn't have fast attacks, Kakuzu didn't, etc. You wanked Hiashi like a friend and ignored Kakashi's feats.

3. Combo'ing with someone doesn't mean you're have the same reactions as someone, the scan of Kakashi and Minato that's been provided prove they have the same reactions speed. Combo'ing means you can keep up though. Everything I said was about speed. About how Kakashi landed Raikiri on Obito despite Obito blocking (not phasing, BLOCKING) KCM Naruto's fullspeed shunshin. Obito, one of the fastest people and some of the best reactions (top 3-5 in the manga) was beat by Kakashi in hand to hand. So what in the hell tells you Hiashi can touch him when Obito has better taijutsu, speed, reaction, intelligence, strength, and stamina feats and still got put down by Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

> IchLiebe said:
> 
> 
> > 1. In part 2 Kakashi's handseals where so fast Naruto and Sakura couldn't see them, so he can get it off before Hiashi gets vacuum palm off.
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> > base naruto and sakura is what you are using to judge the speed of hands seals. ah thats sad man. also wasnt that filler .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. Manga canon. And they couldn't see them so yes.
> ...


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## IchLiebe (Apr 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> no scan.  fanfic. yes yes fan fic



Manga.



> erm yh fan fic. being faster doesnt auto mean u get ur jutsu off quicker. itachi is a prime example of this



What? Itachi always got his jutsu off first and is faster than everyone he fought bar Kabuto?



> in your fan fic no doubt



Here. Read 3 pages after, they both used the same amount of jutsu and in the same time frame. Suiton jutsu and a bunshin



> good for obito he got good reactions and a fan. what does that have to do with skill



Blocking fullspeed KCM Naruto and getting raikiri'd by Kakashi yet you say HIashi won't for whatever reason.



> burnt up shabby kettle calling grey pot black.  obito got no taijutsu. feats try alot harder



His and Kakashi fight in the Kamui world. 



> he got better reactions and speed. that doesnt remotely make him better at taijutsu. or u would have said long ago kakashi beats hiashi with just punches and kicks which even a massive troll like u hasnt dared to say. I mean even you!!! common even u must know its bullshit!!



Kakashi beats Hiashi in taijutsu, better feats. Hiashi has 0 taijutsu feats. 



> to stress how hopeless biased you are your sole argument in jiriaya vs kakashi was jiraiya wont use summons. imagine. like you are a special type of poster. the type who thinks kakashi is sleeping next to him at night.



Jiraiya summons, genjutsu and they're done. 



> the funniest though was listing kakashi jutsu when i mentioned darui got overwhelming chakra as if that changes the fact that darui still got overwhelming chakra and kakashi does not



Overwhelming chakra yet couldn't hurt Sasuke with a combination jutsu. Couldn't kill Suigetsu with raiton jutsu. Couldn't kill Kin/Gin. Kakashi has overwhelming speed, reactions, jutsu, intelligence, etc compared to Darui.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Manga.



so in short too fast for sakura to follow. big fucking whoop its sakura. she shit 



> What? Itachi always got his jutsu off first and is faster than everyone he fought bar Kabuto?



and did that make him beat them or kill them? didnt kakashi someone who got his jutsu off slower not die. and didnt casually loose if not for tskuyomi GG



> Here. Read 3 pages after, they both used the same amount of jutsu and in the same time frame. Suiton jutsu and a bunshin



ok. jutsu which require seals. kishi the author u know the guy who opinion is more relevant than yours has already emphaized jutsu without seals are quicker. guess what none of hiashi jutsu require seals. 



> Blocking fullspeed KCM Naruto and getting raikiri'd by Kakashi yet you say HIashi won't for whatever reason.



hiashi is more skilled at taijutsu and has the better style. less wankign please. never tried to claim hiashi would be having some speed battle here



> His and Kakashi fight in the Kamui world.



yes and obito lost pathetically and showed basically no skill in taijutsu



> Kakashi beats Hiashi in taijutsu, better feats. Hiashi has 0 taijutsu feats.



except his taijutsu deflected juubi tail twice. can kakashi do that with taijutsu? i think not.  but yh lets ignore hiashi feats. go on and make a poll taijtusu match kakashi vs hiashi see urself get laughed at. i mean since u know u want to try claim hiashi is weak at taijutsu



> Jiraiya summons, genjutsu and they're done.



feats of kakashi being able to genjutsu summons? why cuz of his weak ass genjutsu battle with obito. i mean seriously an image of rin? genin sakura would break that genjutsu. worse konohamaru would. genjutsu is good when the victim isnt aware its genjutsu but that shit they were doing was so obviously fake hard to not notice it. odd in itachi vs jiriaya matches u dont automatically say itachi genjtusu his summons. but somehow kakashi can despite you know itachi beign the more established genjutsu user. ah the wank which knows no bounds



> Overwhelming chakra yet couldn't hurt Sasuke with a combination jutsu. Couldn't kill Suigetsu with raiton jutsu. Couldn't kill Kin/Gin. Kakashi has overwhelming speed, reactions, jutsu, intelligence, etc compared to Darui.



kishi words. still overwhleming chakra. ur whinning doesnt change that. 

overhwleming is overwhelming and all those u mentioned have an advantage over kakashi. they more durable. unless u think kakashi can survive being cut in half and still casually chat. or maybe u think kakashi has a V2 kyuubi cloak who knows mehn. he sleepign next to you does he claim he has one?


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## IchLiebe (Apr 4, 2015)

Last post- Hiashi has 0 taijutsu feats, he has basically 0 speed and reaction feats, he has a jutsu that Kakashi is more than fast enough to dodge, KAkashi has full knowledge. HIASHI GETS FUCKING RAPED.


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## Icegaze (Apr 4, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Last post- Hiashi has 0 taijutsu feats, he has basically 0 speed and reaction feats, he has a jutsu that Kakashi is more than fast enough to dodge, KAkashi has full knowledge. HIASHI GETS FUCKING RAPED.



ah you finally give up on trolling
his juubi feats are taijutsu feats. take ur head out of kakashi ass. he doesnt want you there. hiashi has full knowledge odd how you forget that. 

odd kakashi also cant kill suigetsu without kamui but somehow u use that against darui. 

ah you special troll stair 

and all kakashi jutsu can be blocked. hiashi doesnt need to be as fast. 


so yh stop posting. your troll and concession are accepted


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

@everyone 
What's the strongest attack you believe Kaiten can tank or deflect


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2015)

Damn near everything bar nuke attacks (Afternoon Tiger, bijuu bomb, etc). The thing is when he stops spinning he's open like Neji was against spiderman. Or if you catch them before they get spinning enough you can still cause damage.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

@ichi am shocked thought u would have said the strongest thing it can block is a kunai 
Or are u being sarcastic ?

I agree would block most bar nukes . Afternoon tiger and up 

How about continuous barrage attacks . Things like jiriaya hair needle and Asa kujaku


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2015)

Depends. He can't spin forever so if you keep it up long enough when he stops he dies.


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## Icegaze (Apr 5, 2015)

agree when he stops he dies. since during that exact moment it aint easy for him to either respin or dodge. 

though from chapter 614 it seems kaiten is more or less exclusively used to block attacks which might fall in their blind spot or attacks from multiple angles while pinpoint attacks can be dealt with via kushou


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