# Most overrated and underrated Akatsuki member



## Matty (Apr 21, 2015)

Title says it all

Who is the most overrated? And who is the most underrated? 

Hidan
Kakuzu
Konan
Sasori
Itachi
Kisame
Zetsu
Pain
Tobi (pre rinnegan)
Deidara
Orochimaru
Suigetsu
Hebi Sasuke
Karin
Jugo


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Title says it all
> 
> Who is the most overrated? And who is the most underrated?
> 
> ...



Matty wow u post alot 
most overrated is no doubt....actually wait i have doubts 
no idea
most underrated however would have to be sasori or deidara

Pain and itachi are wanked but its hard to say overrated because all posters who wank them do mostly have a strong basis 

itachi V4 susanoo was in the vicinity when FRS+BD+YM detonated the core of CT

deva CST leveled a village 

when u got feats like that its hard to say those characters are overrated. 

i can say the weakest however is karin. 

then hidan annoyingly enough


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## Deer Lord (Apr 21, 2015)

Hidan- some people overrate him, but most agree that he's the weakest, which he is.
Kakuzu- neither overall.
Konan- slightly overrated imo.
Sasori- underrated
Itachi- tricky. living itachi is overrated, edo/prime itachi is neither over nor underrated, everyone acknowledge he's one of the strongest S-class ninja.
Kisame- neither.
Zetsu- lol does anyone use him in battles?
Pain- neither.
Tobi (pre rinnegan)- neither.
Deidara- overrated.
Orochimaru- underrated.
Suigetsu- who?
Hebi Sasuke- never was in akatsuki, that was taka sauce. but hebi sauce is definetly wanked.
Karin- lol
Jugo- dunno.

generally people don't overrate the akatsuki much. Sasori is definetly the most underrated.
if you include hebi sauce then yeah, he's the most overrated.


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## Trojan (Apr 21, 2015)

Overrated: itachi (duh?)
underrated: Sasori/ Obito sometimes as well


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## Nikushimi (Apr 21, 2015)

I will never consider Team Taka legitimate members of Akatsuki. Ever.

The most underrated is Hidan, but he deserves it.

The most overrated is either Pain or Itachi...and they both deserve it.


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## TheGreen1 (Apr 21, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> I will never consider Team Taka legitimate members of Akatsuki. Ever.
> 
> The most underrated is Hidan, but he deserves it.
> 
> The most overrated is either Pain or Itachi...and they both deserve it.



To be honest, Hidan never seemed to be all that special. That immortality and Jashin ritual are ALL he had going for him.  Quite frankly, he was rather stupid as well. I honestly don't think he was that skilled at all. Just an opportunistic fighter with immortality in the truest form basically.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

It's hard to say one is the most overrated and one is the most underrated, because they are all underrated and overrated at different times. So I'd just go with something like this:

Overrated Extremely Frequently:
1. Deidara
2. Itachi

Overrated Frequently:
1. Hebi-Sasuke

Overrated and Underrated A Moderate or Small amount [Basically Relatively Neutral]:
1. Kisame
2. Obito
3. Nagato
4. Suigetsu
5. Juugo

Frequently Underrated:
1. Hidan
2. Sasori
3. Kakuzu

Underrated Extremely Frequently:
1. Konan
2. Karin

Not Rated:
1. Zetsu [don't see him ever put in BD threads]


Unless you mean who has thee most exaggerated opinions about their strength versus where they actually are in strength, than it would be Deidara taking overrated by a landslide and Sasori taking underrated by a landslide. This is excluding troll comments like Itachi soloing Glacticus.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Hidan,Konan,and Zetsu tend to be underrated more times then not while Itachi gets overrated by certain people but then again he's the King so it's ok


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## Trojan (Apr 21, 2015)

"
*Overrated Extremely Frequently:
1. Deidara
2. Itachi*"

I really doubt that Deidara is more overrated than itachi. People believe in all kind of shits when it comes to itachi like it takes 4 Kages at the same time to defeat him, even though itachi was never shown to be able to fight 2 Kage level at the same time!

And God's mercy be upon us when it's " no knowledge"  then all characters get defeated
Madara? Pfff, gets sealed
Hashirama? even as overwanked as he is, he still get defeated by Tsuki(however it's written)
Naruto & Sasuke? Child play. 

....etc with all the characters.


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## Bloo (Apr 21, 2015)

Living Itachi is overrated, as is Pain. However, I do understand where that comes from for both of them.

The most underrated would probably Kakuzu.

Oh, inb4 someone claims Itachi is underrated.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 21, 2015)

Overrated : Tobi / Pain

Underrated : Deidara / Sasori / Kakuzu

Latter is understandable considering the fact that Kishimoto literally shat on all 3 of them during the war arc. 
Kakuzu has always been underrated tho, because he "lost" to Post Fuuton Naruto.


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## TheGreen1 (Apr 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Overrated : Tobi / Pain
> 
> Underrated : Deidara / Sasori / Kakuzu
> 
> ...



FRS does some pretty mean things to your body, and it took out several hearts. Hearts that Kakashi had to damn near exhaust himself to eliminate just one at that point in time. Kakuzu just happened to be caught by one of the most reliable forms of Ninjutsu Nukes around. 

And I say Reliable because after he learned how to throw it, he could use it more than a few times. Plus, it's killed more people than Kirin has.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

hidan is basically never overrated or underrated i feel 

he is just disappointing. only akatsuki who cant take on anyone ninja with the title of kage


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## Matty (Apr 21, 2015)

Haha Icegaze, is that bad? Since I joined I just had the urge to post any battles, ideas that came to mind. I can cut back if it annoys you all.

As for Ovverrated- I'd go with Deidara or Kisame. Don't get me wrong I like both and they are both great but I see people on these boards really overrating them, especially Deidara.

Underrated- I'm a Sasori fan so obviously I will say him but aside from him I'd say Kakuzu or Pain. Pain obliterated Jiraiya pretty much without even trying and should've just shoved a rod through the back of Naruto's head when he was pinned to the ground. People will probably say I'm crazy but I can see in boards people not giving Pain chances against certain opponents that I believe he would have a chance against.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

oh no please dont cut back. keeps this section of NF alive. 

ah i knew u would say especially deidara. however defeating a kage while on the kage turf without going for the kill 
is obviously very impressive

also C4 1 shots causally 95% of the verse

sasori is underrated. pain isnt 
and kakuuz is


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## I Blue I (Apr 22, 2015)

Overrated: Itachi, Deidara, Kisame
Underrated: non-Deva paths of Pein, Konan, Sasori, Kakuzu, Orochimaru


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 22, 2015)

Overrated: Deidara and Tobi
Underrated: Itachi, Kakuzu and Sasori


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## RBL (Apr 22, 2015)

underrated : obito, war arc obito (not juubito) is easily stronger than VOTE madara

Overrated : konan


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## Matty (Apr 22, 2015)

I really shouldnn't have put Taka in this one. But I felt the need to include everyone. We all know the baddest are the original Akatsuki, whether or not you wanna include Oro since he was OG with them in the beginning. 

I do think Deidara is a bit overrated. not for his power, He's an exceptional shinobi but sometimes fans use his C4 hax to say he can nearly beat anyone (and I guess this is somewhat true) but I feel like the high level shinobi can find counters or an escape such as what Sasuke did. But that being said he is still a badass and definitely kage level.

I really don't know what to make of Konan... She held her own against Obito but other than that she really didn't do much except spar with Jiraiya for about 5 minutes. Don't get me wrong I actually think she is one of the coolest character backstories there are along with the Ame orphans and I also liked how she ended trying to fulfill Nagatos original plan before the corruption.

Hidan- He's neutral. I don't think anyone would ever say he's that great to the point of overrating and noone would say hes so bad as to be underrated. But if I had to lean I'd say underrated just because so many people slam him.

Kakuzu- Vastly underrated, the dude is a tank, held his own against Kakashi, and that was after he got one of his masks (Suiton?) killed before the battle really even started. Not to mention he is old as hell and has fought Hashirama XD now Hashirama probably spanked him, but that alone gives him some props.

Pain- I said underrated simply because I feel like with Nagato healthy, they can beat almost anyone below god tier and I think he can beat Obito with difficulty.

Zetsu- Neutral, really can't say much. Maybe underrated because he can clone so much and copy others? I don't know if that would be qualified as underrated. He's just there.

Orochimaru- Neutral I think people know he's great, don't overrate nor underrate.

Kisame- Overrated in my opinion. I like the guy, but I feel like his Suiton hax and endless amount of chakra allow people to just assume he can tank through anyone and anything. Samehada is badass and I'm not saying he's not a beast just saying that I think people tend to overrate him a bit.

Itachi- I saved my two favorite characters for last so I am biased here. He is definitely not underrated. I don't know if I would say he is overrated but intelligent posters. But some Itachi fanboys think he can destroy everyone in the Narutoverse.... Just unrealistic. In reality he is an Exceptional shinobi, if fully healthy could probably beat Obito and is one of the smartest shinobi in the game. so to me he is neutral. He can be overrated or underrated depending on the person who is posting.

Sasori- ahhh my favorite guy in the show. Gotta say he is underrated. He lost to people that were literally the perfect counter to everything he had. I can count 5 times in the beginning of the fight where Sakura is killed without Chiyo and most likely without Sakura Chiyo doesnt even break Hiruko unless she knows his weak points. Then on top of that you have the 3rd Kazekage who I believe probably could've stood toe to toe with the other great Kages like Tobirama (pure speculation but still) with all types of satetsu attacks. Then tru form with stomach cable, propelling blades, flamethrowers, 100 puppets and you might be looking at the most versatile Akatsuki member in the game.  Not to mention unlimited stamina and complete pain resistance. Pplus people tend to think just because you know where Sasori's heart is that you will automatically get it it easily. The guy can still move. He can use iron sand to block, he can use other puppets. The guy had a 5 in intelligence in the DB and has shown he is a genius on the level of Shikamaru. He just happens to be a villain so he never was able to show his true potential as a shinobi

Forgot about Tobi- He's a beast no two ways about it


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## ARGUS (Apr 22, 2015)

Overrated: Deidara, Obito and Kisame 

Underrated: Konan, Hidan and Kakuzu


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## Icegaze (Apr 22, 2015)

i dont see how people can honestly say konan is underrated 

bar with prep she really isnt on the same threat level as the rest of them lets compare

paper bombs to daikodan, water dome, C4, iron sand, 100 puppets, domu

she just doesnt compete with them so if anythign she is well overrated 

she is basically a paper version of suigetsu. she is however not invulnerable to damage like people like to assume


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## TheGreen1 (Apr 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i dont see how people can honestly say konan is underrated
> 
> bar with prep she really isnt on the same threat level as the rest of them lets compare
> 
> ...



Probaby because that Paper Ocean was pretty fucking cool.


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## LostSelf (Apr 22, 2015)

Overrated: Itachi

I saw comments in the library of Itachi defeating Nagato by himself, while at the same time was hindered and with disadvantage because he had to save Naruto and Bee and look after them.

And i think Nagato is above him. Enough to only lose to Itachi at very desfavorable conditions, and even then, with high difficulty.

Underrated: Sasori. People tend to forget that Sakura was alive because of Chiyo. The same Sasori even says Sakura is dodging his attacks because Chiyo is there, and she knew her tricks. That fight is what put Sasori down.

But who can blame? Next time he appears, he is blitzed by Sai and taken down along with Deidara.


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## Icegaze (Apr 22, 2015)

@the green1 it was cool
and also required alot of prep


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## TheGreen1 (Apr 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @the green1 it was cool
> and also required alot of prep



Not denying that, just stating an opinion.

I also think that Konan is ranked lower because of how Jiraiya casually oneshot her with Toad Oil. I honestly think that's the main issue. In both of her showings, she was unable to kill the person she was facing. Granted, she had a really good showing against Obito who if he didn't have that Izanangi, he would have been dead.


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## Jenny89 (Apr 22, 2015)

Karin of course


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## Alucardemi (Apr 22, 2015)

Overrated: I feel as though Pain is often overrated. Like, you could say "Itachi", but really, what is even the point? Debate over the solo king is endless.

Underrated: Deidara / Sasori / Kakuzu.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 22, 2015)

Overrated: Pain and Nagato
 Underrated: Kakuzu/ Deidara


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## Rob (Apr 22, 2015)

Overrated? Idk. I feel like they all get credit where it's due. 

Underrated? Deffo Kakuzu, from what I've seen.

This isn't my take on battles, but rather the characters themselves btw.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 22, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Overrated: Itachi
> 
> I saw comments in the library of Itachi defeating Nagato by himself, while at the same time was hindered and with disadvantage because he had to save Naruto and Bee and look after them.
> 
> And i think Nagato is above him. Enough to only lose to Itachi at very desfavorable conditions, and even then, with high difficulty.



It's a _fact_ that Itachi could have stabbed Nagato with the Totsuka in his initial ambush if he could rush in to manually save Bee and Naruto while while cutting off Nagato's arms.

But for the sake of entertainment, the author had Nagato get off his big technique. Then he let Itachi use his big technique, and Nagato was shown not to have the reflexes to deal with it. 

The "dust cloud" argument is void given that Nagato was a solid 15 meters outside of the cloud, staring at it, and still didn't use Shinra Tensei or Preta to even try to counter the sword zipping for him.​


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## Rocky (Apr 22, 2015)

Itachi didn't really have a sure-fire way to deal with Nagato's big technique on his own, though. Nagato can at least counter Susano'o by staying out of its range. I believe Kabuto did make a statement suggesting that Nagato's limited mobility was the reason for his defeat.


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## Turrin (Apr 23, 2015)

It's pointless to say what could have happened. Nagato could have wasted them all with Chou Shinra-Tensei. Rarely do Naruto characters use their abilities to peak efficiency. 

What did happen is Itachi needed the help of Naruto and B to deal with Nagato's attack, which clearly shows he is weaker than Nagato. And Nagato wasn't even at his best with Pain-Rikudo and GM. Nagato is completely out of Itachi's league.


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## LostSelf (Apr 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's a _fact_ that Itachi could have stabbed Nagato with the Totsuka* in his initial ambush* if he could rush in to manually save Bee and Naruto while while cutting off Nagato's arms.​




Exactly. Initial ambush. Wich is what i am talking about how Itachi's only chances of defeating Nagato.

Ambush + Kabuto being unable to sense through Nagato is a type of disadvantage. A very, but very good advantage. Something different if Nagato were facing Itachi alone.



> But for the sake of entertainment, the author had Nagato get off his big technique. Then he let Itachi use his big technique, and Nagato was shown not to have the reflexes to deal with it.
> 
> The "dust cloud" argument is void given that Nagato was a solid 15 meters outside of the cloud, staring at it, and still didn't use Shinra Tensei or Preta to even try to counter the sword zipping for him.



Nagato or Kabuto? Dust clouds effectively blinds Rinnegan's field of vision, Nagato couldn't sense as Kabuto didn't even know about his ability and had a lot of mobility issues. Plus, that dust cloud only happened because Nagato himself created it. Itachi wouldn't be able to create that one as big.

And that's not factoring GM. Itachi just did what i said he would need to beat Nagato: Facing him under very desfavorable conditions for him (Nagato), and even then it was with difficulty.

Like Turrin said, all those feats Itachi did was with the help of two other high kage.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 23, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> To be honest, Hidan never seemed to be all that special. That immortality and Jashin ritual are ALL he had going for him.  Quite frankly, he was rather stupid as well. I honestly don't think he was that skilled at all. Just an opportunistic fighter with immortality in the truest form basically.



Hidan was trash who lost to a Chuunin that prepared some extra explosives. He is no more worthy of wearing the Akatsuki cloak...than Suigetsu.

But that's why I call him the most underrated.


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## Matty (Apr 23, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Hidan was trash who lost to a Chuunin that prepared some extra explosives. He is no more worthy of wearing the Akatsuki cloak...than Suigetsu.
> 
> But that's why I call him the most underrated.



I think he's rated exactly how he should be. Bottom of the Akatsuki


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## Sadgoob (Apr 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi didn't really have a sure-fire way to deal with Nagato's big technique on his own, though. Nagato can at least counter Susano'o by staying out of its range. I believe Kabuto did make a statement suggesting that Nagato's limited mobility was the reason for his defeat.



Yeah, but we don't know if Itachi really didn't have a way to counter it. He just chose the most convenient way available to him because of the resources at his disposal (Naruto and Bee.) 

Would a quick Amaterasu on the core work? If Itachi rushed towards it immediately after it was thrown, would the Totsuka work? Could Itachi use an imperfect Izanagi to respawn? 

All we know is he had the resources to stand back, be cautious, analyze what was happening, and have his team blow it away without causing anybody on his team any strain whatsoever.

And Kabuto did say that Nagato's limited mobility was a factor, but we know that Nagato _was_ mobile, given he blitzed Bee, and that he could use techniques. He suggested Nagato _needed_ more mobility.

That is, he needs to be his pre-Hanzou self, who was evidently even faster. That said, I agree that Nagato is an overall more poweful ninja due to massively destructive and versatile jutsu.​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nagato or Kabuto? Dust clouds effectively blinds Rinnegan's field of vision.



I'm saying that Nagato was well _outside_ the dust cloud, looking directly at the area where he knew Itachi was. The Totsuka _exited_ the dust cloud from _a large distance away_ and he couldn't react.​


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## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm saying that Nagato was well _outside_ the dust cloud, looking directly at the area where he knew Itachi was. The Totsuka _exited_ the dust cloud from _a large distance away_ and *Kabuto couldn't react*.​



Fixed for accuracy 

The second Nagato went all terminator... Kabuto _was controlling_ Nagato's every action in that fight, and base Kabuto is not the last word in reflexes


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

It's possible Nagato was temporarily weakened after the CT use, regardless of being Edo. The dude was standing there doing nothing even after the core was destroyed. 

I'd have to roll with Joakim's explanation though, I don't see how Nagato failed to react to Totsuka when his own, weaker paths reacted to FRS canonically.

But I do understand that argument, Totsuka might simply be that fast considering it did the same thing to Orochimaru, in plain sight, from a further distance.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 23, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Fixed for accuracy. The second Nagato went all terminator... Kabuto _was controlling_ Nagato's every action in that fight, and base Kabuto is not the last word in reflexes



First: it's not truly Kabuto-controlled-Nagato, but more like mindless-killing-machine-Nagato with a objective, not unlike what Orochimaru did with Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama in part one.

Second: "Kabuto-controlled-Nagato" was complimented by Naruto as being much faster with jutsu, and and "Kabuto-controlled-Nagato" was the one with Nagato's best speed feat (blitzing Bee.)

"Kabuto-controlled-Nagato" was a far more effective fighter than "Nagato-controlled-Nagato" ever was, because Kabuto is a _lot_ smarter than Nagato, or just because that was "bloodlusted Nagato."
​


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

"Base Kabuto's" reactions were also with the 3rd Raikage avoiding FRS twice, the second time from behind & extremely close, if that's what Joakim's getting at. 

Though I don't know if Kabuto is controlling them directly but rather giving them orders and erasing their personality, I don't necessarily see why Base Kabuto's reactions wouldn't be enough to avoid/ST/Absorb Totsuka from that distance if he was directly controlling him. 

Which leads me to believe Nagato was weakened.

Overall, not avoiding/reacting to Amaterasu from close was also a pretty shitty feat for Nagato, who should have been able to absorb/ST it which is exactly what he/or Kabuto did against V2 Bee's Lariat / what they did against Naruto's chakra arm Rasengan. Though, to be fair, Kabuto (who was ordering them to attack Naruto) did not know Itachi was no longer under his control at the time.

However, Nagato suggesting his body was "moving on it's own" (I think it was Nagato) even with his personality intact kind of hints at the possibility that he really did not have control of his body at all, not that he was just being forced to attack them as he would anyone- but that Kabuto was remotely controlling Nagato's body to the point where Nagato literally was not making any decisions, movements or casting any Ninjutsu in the fight at all even with his personality intact.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 23, 2015)

That doesn't really make sense given that Deva Path was able to keep up with Sage Naruto 1v1 after using CT. What makes more sense is just that the Totsuka, as hyped as it is, is rather fast.​


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## Grimsley (Apr 23, 2015)

Hidan - Rated fairly 
Kakuzu - Overrated 
Konan - Underrated
Sasori - Overrated
Itachi - Rated fairly 
Kisame - Rated fairly 
Zetsu - Rated fairly 
Pain - Rated Fairly 
Tobi (pre rinnegan) - Rated fairly
Deidara - Underrated
Orochimaru - Overrated


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## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> First: it's not truly Kabuto-controlled-Nagato, but more like mindless-killing-machine-Nagato with a objective, not unlike what Orochimaru did with Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama in part one.



Kabuto can kill there personality or take _direct control_ over them something he _has_ done.

Kabuto killed Zabuza & Raikagenauts personality, but allowed them to move completely autonomously with controlling there direct actions.

Mu on the other hand had his personality completely killed as well, but Kabuto directly controlled his actions (i.e getting in the way of Ei & Onoki to defend Madara)

Kabuto was was coming up with a game plan on the fly  .... and Nagato robotically did such. 



Strategoob said:


> Second: "Kabuto-controlled-Nagato" was complimented by Naruto as being much faster with jutsu, and and "Kabuto-controlled-Nagato" was the one with Nagato's best speed feat (blitzing Bee.)



Being controlled effects Nagato's _actions_.... not how much strength he packs behind his techniques relative to his paths (which was the premise of Naruto stating such) or his physically limitations and or feats



Strategoob said:


> "Kabuto-controlled-Nagato" was a far more effective fighter than "Nagato-controlled-Nagato" ever was, because Kabuto is a _lot_ smarter than Nagato, or just because that was "bloodlusted Nagato."



In terms of effectiveness....... not in a long shot.

Nagato was fighting the entire village Konoha in multiple locations at multiple times quite handedly until he got cocky against Konohamaru and faced Kakashi. Kabuto will _never_ be as effective as using Nagato's abilities as Nagato himself is.

Hell baring Kaguya & Hashiromo, Nagato has had a set of Rinnegan in his head the longest by a margin of decades


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## Sadgoob (Apr 23, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Nagato was fighting the entire village Konoha in multiple locations at multiple times quite handedly until he got cocky against Konohamaru



This is my point. Nagato's tactics involved splitting up Pain to the point where the Path that revives others is nearly wiped out by Konohamaru. Splitting up Pain is an obvious no-no.

Without plot protections from Kamui, Gai, Danzou, Hiashi, etc. then that invasion would've ended real fast. Nagato also used his real body really shittily against Naruto, Bee, Itachi, and Hanzou.​


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## MYJC (Apr 23, 2015)

Overrated - Living Itachi. He's very powerful no doubt but there are people who honestly think he'd beat Pain. 

Underrated - Tobi. I don't think people realize just how hax Kamui is. Unless you can counter it with your own ST jutsu (like Kakashi/Minato) or have a shitload of prep (Konan) it's basically impossible to beat. If it wasn't for Kakashi having his other eye, Obito's Kamui could've soloed the alliance.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> This is my point. Nagato's tactics involved splitting up Pain to the point where the Path that revives others is nearly wiped out by Konohamaru. Splitting up Pain is an obvious no-no.
> 
> Without plot protections from Kamui, Gai, Danzou, Hiashi, etc. then that invasion would've ended real fast. Nagato also used his real body really shittily against Naruto, Bee, Itachi, and Hanzou.



_Tactics_ - describe an action or plan which is intended to help someone achieve what they want in a *particular situation.*

Key word, _situation_....

Nagato explicitaly stated he was going to split his paths up in the invasion as 

a) he was _looking_ for Naruto so he could cover more ground 

b) he could confuse Konoha into thinking only one person was attacking

c) he wanted Chikushdo, Shurado & Jigokudo to act as diversions to enable Tendo, Ningendo, Gakido & Konan to perform reconnaissance unnoticed

All of which where executed perfectly 

When Nagato engages in a 1 vs. 1 fight against higher caliber opponents, he always groups paths together and *never* splits them

Nagato wasn't in control of his body against Killer B, Itachi & Naruto

It was a hostage situation against Hanzo... COMPLETELY different situation than a one on one fight. He choose to pull a Naruto as opposed to a Sasuke if you catch my drift


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## Alita (Apr 23, 2015)

Kakuzu is definitely most underrated. Itachi and orochimaru tend to get overrated.


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## Alita (Apr 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I think he's rated exactly how he should be. Bottom of the Akatsuki


He's stronger than the individual members of the zetsu army at the least along with juugo and Karin.


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## Matty (Apr 23, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> Hidan - Rated fairly
> Kakuzu - Overrated
> Konan - Underrated
> Sasori - Overrated
> ...




I'd like to hear how Kakuzu and Sasori are overrated

@Alita I meant the base Akatsuki. I kind of just put all the rest for shits and gigs. I probably shouldn't have


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 24, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Like Turrin said, all those feats Itachi did was with the help of two other high kage.[/COLOR]



So you'r saying that charging @ Nagato like idiots and getting 2 paneled is a "High Kage" move ? 

I wonder what tier that puts Itachi in, given he charged in and 2 paneled Nagato, just as easily as Nagato 2 paneled B & Naruto.



Joakim3 said:


> Kabuto can kill there personality or take _direct control_ over them something he _has_ done.



Kabuto never took direct control of Nagato. He simply killed his personality.


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## LostSelf (Apr 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm saying that Nagato was well _outside_ the dust cloud, looking directly at the area where he knew Itachi was. The Totsuka _exited_ the dust cloud from _a large distance away_ and he couldn't react.​



Indeed. But Nagato had no personality there and his behaviour was not quite rational, as he was only doing what him, as an Edo tensei had to do and ilogically left Itachi do whatever he wants. In fact, the same Kabuto didn't took Itachi into account even when he appeared.

There are a lot of things we can say about Nagato/Kabuto not avoiding. But the two more probably to me are Nagato doing nothing to prevent it. We can see how Kabuto only finds out Nagato was sealed after he enters the bottle. Why? How? I don't know.

Second is mobility issues, as Kabuto states after. 

However, there's something i don't deny, when something increases it's size, it's hard to avoid. The same happened when Sasuke was pursuing Itachi and used his Susano'o hand. The increasing hand quickly reached Itachi and he had to counter it with his own.

Here we have something similar, but worse, yet. Because the attack came from a thick smokecloud that was barely some meters away from a Nagato that was just standing there, not even doing what he was ordered to do. As an Edo Tensei without personality would do as long as his target is alive.

None of this would certainly happen if the one here is the real Nagato and the only enemy he is facing is Itachi. As Nagato would inmediately sense Susano'o and send it flying or take a defensive maneuver.


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## desertraider669 (Apr 30, 2015)

Over-rated: Konan, Kisame
Underated: Sasori, Deidara and kakuzu

a lot say Deidara is a stuck up cockey prick...yet that's all i ever hear of him :/. Seriously, no one ever says he is powerful and capable all he gets is hate, i have NEVER seen anyone over rate him on any forum. His C4 can be overated, but he is most definately underated. he died at 19 defeated Gaara and gave Sasuke a challenge, c'mon he deserves more godamn credit.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 30, 2015)

*Underrated* and *overrated*: 

*Itachi* 
Even when completely blind and at 1% health, Itachi neg-diffed Orochimaru, and Orochimaru is an upper Mid Kage level. Zetsu then said that healthy Itachi was much stronger and faster, but people don't really grant him any additional speed or deadliness, even though his Edo incarnation more or less blitzed Bee twice.

*Kisame* 
Kisame, without Daikoden and with Samehada betraying him, low-diff _*captured*_ Killer Bee, and Killer Bee is at least a low High Kage level. A _weakened_ Kisame ended up losing to Gated Gai, who in my opinion is a High Kage opponent that was conveniently immune to the chakra-absorption of the Daikoden technique.

*Deidara* 
Deidara, without c4, _*captured*_ Gaara _in the freaking desert_. Gaara in the desert is a High Kage no question. Deidara _*without arms*_ also would have low-diffed Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, Neji, and Lee if not for a War-Arc-Level Kamui-snipe feat. He lost to an opponent with the perfect element, insight, etc. to handle his sneaky ninjutsu.

*Sasori*
I just can't see any other upper Mid Kage having _any_ difficulty with Chiyo with a Sakura puppet. To me, Sasori is lower Mid Kage, but people put him in the upper Mid Kage range because of the 3rd Kazekage's hype. Without knowing more about the battle, I'm inclined to think Sasori went in with an advantage.
​


LostSelf said:


> Here we have something similar, but worse, yet. Because the attack came from a thick smokecloud that was barely some meters away from a Nagato that was just standing there.



I wouldn't call it "" though. We've seen Nagato avert blows inches away with his ninjutsu, and he's standing at least 20-30 feet from he dust cloud away there. Hence my conclusion being that the Totsuka extension is damn fast.​


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## Icegaze (Apr 30, 2015)

Overrated has to be Konan people consider her invulnerable to most damage despite all the other akatsuki bar Hidan having Jutsu that can straight up GG her without trying too hard 

Defensively she is a top ninja . Offensively in terms of Fire power she is the weakest not counting Hidan 

For me the akatsuki rank has always been

Obito 
Nagato 
Itachi 
orochimaru - ET included. All 3 above him can deal with oro imprecise level of ET from part 1 . No zetsu body here 
sasori 
Kisame 
Deidara 
Kakuzu
Konan 
Hidan


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## LostSelf (Apr 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you'r saying that charging @ Nagato like idiots and getting 2 paneled is a "High Kage" move ?



Two paneled because it was Nagato. Put another one there that's not Hashirama and his similar power levels or beyond and the same won't happen.



> I wonder what tier that puts Itachi in, given he charged in and 2 paneled Nagato, just as easily as Nagato 2 paneled B & Naruto.



Below Nagato. Because everything Itachi did was because Nagato had his attention on Naruto and Bee. And Itachi managed to survive because Naruto and Bee were there too.

Not a remotely close comparison when Nagato did everything by himself.

Adding that the chapter's meaning was relying on your friends to overcome biggers obstacles, and you have Nagato being too much for them to handle individually.

That's the problem with what Itachi did. It's as valid as Rock Lee killing Madara.




> I wouldn't call it "" though. We've seen Nagato avert blows inches away with his ninjutsu, and he's standing at least 20-30 feet from he dust cloud away there. Hence my conclusion being that the Totsuka extension is damn fast.​



Barely some meters for the extension of the Totsuka's size. Nagato was probably 'off' by that time because Kabuto only figured out Nagato lost when he was sealed. 

Susano'o extension is fast, like i said, Sasuke reached Itachi very fast when he extended his Susano'o hand. But saying this and saying Nagato couldn't react at all is something different as there were a lot of casualties that lead to Nagato losing. None of that being accesible by Itachi alone.

Wich is why i repeat again: it's one of the only way i see Itachi defeating Nagato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 1, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Two paneled because it was Nagato. Put another one there that's not Hashirama and his similar power levels or beyond and the same won't happen.


And? 
Whats "high kage" about getting 2 paneled ? What high kage moves did Naruto & B dish out ? 

You claimed Itachi had "high kage" support. I'm asking for the evidence.



> Below Nagato. Because everything Itachi did was because Nagato had his attention on Naruto and Bee. And Itachi managed to survive because Naruto and Bee were there too.



Ok, I'll ask again. What kind of skill does it take for not doing anything and getting 2 paneled ? Can't Itachi accomplish a similar distraction with a bunshin or two ? 



> Not a remotely close comparison when Nagato did everything by himself.


It is a valid comparison.
You said B & Naruto are 2 high kages, and they got 2 paneled by Nagato.
Itachi did exactly the same thing they did, but ended up 2 paneling Nagato.
If Naruto & B are high kages, then what does that make Itachi ? 




> Adding that the chapter's meaning was relying on your friends to overcome biggers obstacles, and you have Nagato being too much for them to handle individually.


I never said Itachi did everything himself.
I am just questioning your assesment of B & Naruto's assistance.



> That's the problem with what Itachi did. It's as valid as Rock Lee killing Madara.


Oh you didn't. Negged.


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## Trojan (May 1, 2015)

> Oh you didn't. Negged.



why did I laugh so much about this? :rofl 

Anyway. Nagato like most of the other kages did not really want to fight when he was in his mind, and when he lost it, it was all about Kabuto who forgot about itachi. 

What do you think itachi will do without them against CT? 

Side Note: if you are going to response, please try to not make it too long. *black moon face*


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Nagato destroys itachi and always will
He might not even consider Itachi enough to use his real body 
Paths of pain is more than enough to kill itachi
The comparison between the 2 needs to stop

Itschi will put up a fight but Nagato got way too much Fire power . At worst CT ends the match


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## Bkprince33 (May 1, 2015)

I wonder if itachi can stop a ct from deva path considering his ct should be alot weaker then nagato's 




anyway overrated i will say konan or obito.


underrated diedara


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

I think most overrate konan because they believe the paper she creates isn't part of her body . It is
DB says she turns her body into paper 
She isn't randomly creating paper out of thin air 

It's no different from hydration jutsu . It mitigates some level of physical injury . However AOE attacks should still work just fine 

Note : kimimaro would hve made a better akatsuki than hidan who is so so weak 

Imagine the guy can't do anytbing at all to any akatsuki member 

Konan turns into sheets holds him a place and takes his head off 
Kakuzu gians his head off 
Deidara C3 or c4
Sasori any puppet takes his head off 
Kisame drowns him 
Itachi looks at him
Orochimaru  he holds him down with snake hands and laughs hidan off 

Kishi dropped the ball on hidan . 

Also despite all being overrated or underrated . Every akatsuki bar hidan can at least put up a fight against the gokage in 1 on 1 

Hidan can't . I mean even Mei the weakest would beat him


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## LostSelf (May 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And?
> Whats "high kage" about getting 2 paneled ? What high kage moves did Naruto & B dish out ?
> 
> You claimed Itachi had "high kage" support. I'm asking for the evidence.




Because not everybody would take Bee's attack, not everybody would be able to grab Naruto without being killed by a Rasengan or chakra arms, not everybody would be able to hold Killer Bee without getting their arms and face destroyed, should i continue or are you going to write without stopping to think a bit?

Name any other kage that can do so at the same time. Onoki? Ei? Itachi can't either. Who?



> Ok, I'll ask again. What kind of skill does it take for not doing anything and getting 2 paneled ? Can't Itachi accomplish a similar distraction with a bunshin or two ?




No.



> It is a valid comparison.
> You said B & Naruto are 2 high kages, and they got 2 paneled by Nagato.
> Itachi did exactly the same thing they did, but ended up 2 paneling Nagato.
> If Naruto & B are high kages, then what does that make Itachi ?



Yeah. If i go and stab Mayweather in a fight while he is busy paying no attention to me would be the same as Mayweather kicking those guy's asses without any kind of advantage.

The huge difference about Nagato two panneling Naruto and Bee and Itachi doing so to Nagato is that Nagato had no type of outside help doing so. Itachi, on the other hand, did it because Nagato was busy and by himself he would've been unable to do so.




> I never said Itachi did everything himself.
> I am just questioning your assesment of B & Naruto's assistance.



Let's see:

Nagato's summons, his attention and Kanuto's are entirely focused on Naruto and Bee. Itachi is roaming free without Kabuto even thinking about him and manages to hit him with an ambush that even Tenten could've achieved by how the circunstances were playing out.

After that, Nagato pulls a jutsu that Itachi would not be able to counter without Naruto and Bee.


Go ahead and question all that assistance that only supports my point: Itachi can only take on Nagato and beat him under very favorable conditions, like this one. And that was not even factoring Nagato's full arsenal such as GM.



> Oh you didn't. Negged.



.

Since you ask in that pointless neg that touched your soft side, i will answer: What Lee did to Madara was because of backup and help and Madara's situation in the Juubi.

I wonder, who did something similar...? Who... Oh yeah!


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## Sadgoob (May 1, 2015)

The moment Itachi came in, he cut Nagato apart with Susano'o, blinded all his summons, and freed his teammates. They let Nagato regenerate and get off a jutsu. Countered it. Then paneled Nagato. 

How Itachi would have done on his own is completely unknown and left to speculation, but you can't argue that because Team Itachi neg-diffed Nagato, Itachi never would have won on his own.​


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## LostSelf (May 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That's not really true though. If Nagato, Bee, and Naruto stomped Itachi, would you argue that Nagato needed Bee and Naruto? Because that's what it was: a neg-diff stomp.
> 
> Just because a ninja uses available help, it doesn't mean he couldn't have beaten his enemy on his own, especially if he does it with exceedingly little difficulty or time as part of a team.​



This would depend on how the battle plays out. It Nagato needs both, Naruto and Bee to defeat Itachi, then yes, i would be saying he needed outside help to do it.

For example, if Nagato manages to hit Itachi only because he was distracted, i wouldn't say he can do it by himself. Itachi didn't defeat Nagato with little difficulty. To survive him, they needed to bust their strongest ranged attack and at the same time.

It wasn't Naruto, Bee and Itachi that defeated Nagato. It was Naruto, _Hachibi_ and Itachi. Bee wouldn't have been able to assist them in destroying the core.

Take away Naruto and Bee and put Nagato's attention on Itachi only and the outcome would be different. It's not Itachi sealing Nagato that i am counting (something i haven't denied), it's how and why he did it.


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## Trojan (May 1, 2015)

you should have waited till strate finish all of his editing.


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## Sadgoob (May 1, 2015)

Take away Bee and Naruto, and Itachi wouldn't have wasted his ambush on saving them, and would have sealed Nagato.

Take away Bee and Naruto, and Itachi would have sealed Nagato before Nagato regenerated from the initial Amaterasu hit.

Take away Bee and Naruto, and Nagato wouldn't have opened with his strongest technique immediately.​


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## LostSelf (May 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Take away Bee and Naruto, and Itachi wouldn't have wasted his ambush on saving them, and would have sealed Nagato.​




Taking away Bee and Naruto and there would've been no ambush as Nagato's attention would've been on Itachi.



> Take away Bee and Naruto, and Itachi would have sealed Nagato before Nagato regenerated from the initial Amaterasu hit.


Taking away Bee and Naruto and there would've not been an Amaterasu hit, as the moment Nagato sensed the build up, he would've responded with Shinra Tensei, and Itachi wouldn't have liked that.

And depending on how powerful the blasts is, Itachi would've been defeated followed by a soul rip while he regenerates. And if he's alive, out of fight inmediately.



> Take away Bee and Naruto, and Nagato wouldn't have opened with his strongest technique immediately.


Indeed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 1, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Because not everybody would take Bee's attack, not everybody would be able to grab Naruto without being killed by a Rasengan or chakra arms, not everybody would be able to hold Killer Bee without getting their arms and face destroyed



Completely irrelevant. 
Variables are B and Naruto here, not Nagato. Thats why this isn't relevant to your initial claim that B & Naruto acted as "high kage" supports.



> , should i continue or are you going to write without stopping to think a bit?


Do continue, I need something to laugh at.



> > Name any other kage that can do so at the same time. Onoki? Ei? Itachi can't either. Who?


Naruto got grabed by an invisible summon, never faced Nagato directly, and all he could bring out was a rasengan which was easily absorbed. B basically tried to physically assault Nagato from above and grabbed and restrained. 

Replace Naruto and B with any other weaker character, and the outcome doesn't change. They get caught and restrained without any kind of difficulty.




> No.


So you believe that Itachi's clone can't dive in, get grabbed and restrained without being able to do anything ?  Because thats what both B and Naruto did and nothing more.




> Yeah. If i go and stab Mayweather in a fight while he is busy paying no attention to me would be the same as Mayweather kicking those guy's asses without any kind of advantage.




Is it because those two guys are very powerful, or is it because mayweather is distracted ?
Because if it is the latter, then you have no argument to begin with.



> The huge difference about Nagato two panneling Naruto and Bee and Itachi doing so to Nagato is that Nagato had no type of outside help doing so. Itachi, on the other hand, did it because Nagato was busy and by himself he would've been unable to do so.


B attacked when Nagato was preoccupied too fyi, and he accomplished nothing other than getting his ass almost jail raped. 

Itachi did what B did, but with a plan, and Nagato was the one who ended up being jail raped. 

So again, if its all about attacking someone who is distracted, then why couldn't B destroy Nagato like Itachi did ? 



> Let's see:
> 
> Nagato's summons, his attention and Kanuto's are entirely focused on Naruto and Bee. Itachi is roaming free without Kabuto even thinking about him and manages to hit him with an ambush that even Tenten could've achieved by how the circunstances were playing out.




So you'r saying that tenten can curve his projectiles to attack Rinnegan from blind spots simultaneously as she gets in, destroys Nagato, and gets out with B & Naruto rescued to a safe distance ? 

Did you just go full retard or are you simply trolling ? 




> After that, Nagato pulls a jutsu that Itachi would not be able to counter without Naruto and Bee.



The only part where I agree that Itachi needed high caliber support is destroying Chibaku tensei.
Although I believe CT can be destroyed with knowledge, before it can grow into a huge size alot easier.



> Go ahead and question all that assistance that only supports my point: Itachi can only take on Nagato and beat him under very favorable conditions, like this one. And that was not even factoring Nagato's full arsenal such as GM.


I have to correct you here, because you probably meant to say : "Itachi can only *destroy Nagato in 8 pages* under favorable circumstances."  And that I can agree with.

Also GM was being ass whooped by B & Naruto. It certainly isn't Nagato's strongest arsenal, even when it had 7 Bijuu's in it(most of which took years of dedicated work of other Akatsuki members). 



> .
> 
> 
> Since you ask in that pointless neg that touched your soft side, i will answer: What Lee did to Madara was because of backup and help and Madara's situation in the Juubi.
> ...



I didn't neg you because this is about Itachi. I negged you because you think Lee kicking Madara is the same as Itachi 2 paneling Nagato. 

But sure, if you throw circumstances out of the window, you can dumb it down to that. But then, I am pretty sure you could say that Naruto & Sasuke defeated Zabuza, too.


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## Punished Kiba (May 1, 2015)

Itachi - Overrated (no news here 
Sasori - Overrated (He's so popular in Japan, like seriously )
Deidara - Overrated (same as Sasori )
Tobi/Obito - Overrated (subjective but I don't like him)
Konan - Fairly Rated
Kisame - Fairly Rated
Zetsu - Fairly rated
Hidan - Underrated
Kakuzu - Underrated (least popular amongst Akatsuki)
Orochimaru - Underrated (In Japan, He's surprisingly really unpopular, even characters like Tenten or Karin are more popular than him)


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## LostSelf (May 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Completely irrelevant.
> Variables are B and Naruto here, not Nagato. Thats why this isn't relevant to your initial claim that B & Naruto acted as "high kage" supports.
> 
> 
> Do continue, I need something to laugh at.



Are you serious? Seriously? Downplaying Naruto and Bee to support your arguments? Dear Gaikage, forgive this guy.  The fact that Naruto and Bee looked bad was not because they are bad. Was because Nagato was too good. You are focusing on downplaying Naruto and Bee to make your point when it's dumb enough to think what you're saying.

Again, if you replace Nagato there with another kage, Naruto and Bee wouldn't have been soloed. Wich is something i know you understand, but are to stubborn to see.



> Naruto got grabed by an invisible summon, never faced Nagato directly, and all he could bring out was a rasengan which was easily absorbed. B basically tried to physically assault Nagato from above and grabbed and restrained.
> 
> Replace Naruto and B with any other weaker character, and the outcome doesn't change. They get caught and restrained without any kind of difficulty


.


Sure, the outcome doesn't change. Now, replace Nagato with somebody else and Naruto and Bee would've kicked the replacement's ass. They just couldn't because it was Nagato.



> So you believe that Itachi's clone can't dive in, get grabbed and restrained without being able to do anything ?  Because thats what both B and Naruto did and nothing more.



I do believe Itachi's clones would get stomped by Nagato. What i don't believe is another kage making Naruto and Bee look bad like Nagato did. In fact, no Kage can. Wich is the point you are refusing to understand. Naruto and Bee didn't lost because they were bad. It's stupid. They lost because Nagato was too much for them.




> Is it because those two guys are very powerful, or is it because mayweather is distracted ?
> Because if it is the latter, then you have no argument to begin with.




Glad you replied your own question. The only way Itachi did that was because Nagato was not focused on anything Itachi did.



> B attacked when Nagato was preoccupied too fyi, and he accomplished nothing other than getting his ass almost jail raped.



Bee attacked Nagato when he was aware of them. Nagato and Kabuto never, ever were thinking on Itachi. 



> Itachi did what B did, but with a plan, and Nagato was the one who ended up being jail raped.
> 
> So again, if its all about attacking someone who is distracted, then why couldn't B destroy Nagato like Itachi did ?




Because Bee didn't have the luxury Itachi had. 



> So you'r saying that tenten can curve his projectiles to attack Rinnegan from blind spots simultaneously as she gets in, destroys Nagato, and gets out with B & Naruto rescued to a safe distance ?
> 
> Did you just go full retard or are you simply trolling ?




It seems somebody is angry enough to not know when somebody is exaggerating a thing to make a point. Chill.




> The only part where I agree that Itachi needed high caliber support is destroying Chibaku tensei.
> Although I believe CT can be destroyed with knowledge, before it can grow into a huge size alot easier.



Then you are saying Itachi can blitz Nagato with Susano'o if he is fighting Itachi by himself. Something that not even you believe it's true.

Itachi cannot hope to destroy CT by itself.



> I have to correct you here, because you probably meant to say : "Itachi can only *destroy Nagato in 8 pages* under favorable circumstances."  And that I can agree with.



If, by destroying you mean needing a Bijuu and a Jiinchuriki to survive, then yeah. Go agree with that.



> Also GM was being ass whooped by B & Naruto. It certainly isn't Nagato's strongest arsenal, even when it had 7 Bijuu's in it(most of which took years of dedicated work of other Akatsuki members).




It doesn't matter. Bijuu Bee and Naruto packs much more firepower than Itachi. And Itachi by himself cannot do much against Nagato, let alone Nagato + Gedo Mazo.




> I didn't neg you because this is about Itachi. I negged you because you think Lee kicking Madara is the same as Itachi 2 paneling Nagato.



I don't care about the neg. I am not as passionate and childish as to negrage somebody, especially if i am too sure that X argument is "stupid". Also, dear Hussain repped me kindly, so it doesn't matter .

It's the same, as both were defeated _with_ help. Two paneling. Seriously.



> But sure, if you throw circumstances out of the window, you can dumb it down to that. But then, I am pretty sure you could say that Naruto & Sasuke defeated Zabuza, too.




Me? That's the kind of shit i am debating against . Somehow, Itachi is equal to Nagato when he needed a fucking Bijuu and Naruto to survive . Just like Zabuza would've whooped Naruto and Sasuke's ass, Nagato would whoop Itachi's. Not as easy, for sure. But Itachi has no way of beating him without advantage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 1, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Are you serious? Seriously? Downplaying Naruto and Bee to support your arguments? Dear Gaikage, forgive this guy.  The fact that Naruto and Bee looked bad was not because they are bad. Was because Nagato was too good. You are focusing on downplaying Naruto and Bee to make your point when it's dumb enough to think what you're saying.



I don't need to downplay Naruto & B, they underperfomed clearly. Pretty sure anyone who isn't a Nagato fanboy can see that.



> Again, *if you replace Nagato there with another kage,* Naruto and Bee wouldn't have been soloed. Wich is something i know you understand, but are to stubborn to see.





> Sure, the outcome doesn't change. Now, replace Nagato with somebody else and Naruto and Bee would've kicked the replacement's ass. They just couldn't because it was Nagato.



 Nagato may be a bad match up for them, that is irrelevant. Whats relevant here is, nothing changes if you replace B & Naruto with two weaker shinobi. If they charge in without a plan, they are getting the same treatment. 

Which completely destroys the notion that "Itachi had HIGH kage support."
If Itachi had 2 jounins with him and they got themselves in a similar situation, Itachi'd still be able to take out shared vision, destroy Nagato and save his comrades.



> I do believe Itachi's clones would get stomped by Nagato. What i don't believe is another kage making Naruto and Bee look bad like Nagato did. In fact, no Kage can. Wich is the point you are refusing to understand. Naruto and Bee didn't lost because they were bad. It's stupid. They lost because Nagato was too much for them.


I am not sure why you'r stuck on this. Replacing Nagato with someone else isn't the issue here, we are discussing Naruto & B's effort and assistance in that particular instance.
You claim that the way they get raped is "high kage level." I am just showing you it is not. Anyone who could manage to get restrained by Nagato under 2 seconds would allow Itachi to capitalize on that moment.



> Glad you replied your own question. The only way Itachi did that was because Nagato was not focused on anything Itachi did.


Sure, I never made the claim that Itachi can casually 2 panel Nagato. Unless he is distracted.
We are talking about the distaction here. I am just saying it would allow Itachi to accomplish  the same thing if the said distraction was someone/something else other than B & Naruto.



> Bee attacked Nagato when he was aware of them*. Nagato and Kabuto never, ever were thinking on Itachi.*


Evidence on the bold ? 
Also B was detected by the shared vision, which could have also happened to Itachi had he not taken care of it.



> Because Bee didn't have the luxury Itachi had.


What luxury ? You mean higher IQ and skill ? That is a part of shinobi's strength.



> It seems somebody is angry enough to not know when somebody is exaggerating a thing to make a point. Chill.


Based on this post and the previous ones, I don't think anyone can know whether you'r exaggerating or serious, or trolling.



> Then you are saying Itachi can blitz Nagato with Susano'o if he is fighting Itachi by himself. Something that not even you believe it's true.



If Nagato's vision is obscured, then yeah, he sure can blitz Nagato, like he did in the manga, twice.



> Itachi cannot hope to destroy CT by itself.


Its not possible to know eitherway, but should be common sense that you'd require less firepower to destroy the core itself instead of the core along with tons of debris stuck around it.



> If, by destroying you mean needing a Bijuu and a Jiinchuriki to survive, then yeah. Go agree with that.


No I mean literally destroying. Read those 8 pages, Itachi basically murderstomps Nagato. 
Like, most fights take a couple of chapters. This one ends after Itachi lands massive blows on Nagato without Nagato being able to hurt any of his opponents. That is the definition of one sided.



> It doesn't matter. Bijuu Bee and Naruto packs much more firepower than Itachi. And Itachi by himself cannot do much against Nagato, let alone Nagato + Gedo Mazo.



Thats open to debate.



> I don't care about the neg. I am not as passionate and childish as to negrage somebody, especially if i am too sure that X argument is "stupid". Also, dear Hussain repped me kindly, so it doesn't matter .



Yes, your post clearly shows you'r not passionate or childish. 



> It's the same, as both were defeated _with_ help. Two paneling. Seriously.


Umm, how can two things be the same when the circumstances are completely different ? 



> Me? That's the kind of shit i am debating against . Somehow, Itachi is equal to Nagato when he needed a fucking Bijuu and Naruto to survive .


 
I have to correct you here, again. 
You mean Itachi needed the assistance of a Bijuu and Naruto to completely destroy Nagato under a minute. And your point is ? 



> Just like Zabuza would've whooped Naruto and Sasuke's ass, Nagato would whoop Itachi's. Not as easy, for sure. But Itachi has no way of beating him without advantage.


Or just like how Kakashi needed Naruto & sasuke's help to defeat Zabuza, Itachi needed Naruto & B.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2015)

KCM Naruto and Bee's performance likely would've improved if Nagato didn't manage a surprise Shinra Tensei that separated the gang. Splitting them up just made it easy for Nagato to handle each one 1v1.


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## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

i think orochimaru is  underrated 
i dont see why 

the man got 2 difficult to deal with jutsu 

1) Edo tensei- which people always take away from him
2) 8 headed snake. 

these techniques arent so easy to deal with and are part of his arsenal 

orochimaru should be above the likes of sasori, kisame and the rest. while itachi, obito and nagato are above him


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## LostSelf (May 1, 2015)

He says i am childish, and negs me. He says i am passionate: And gets all worked up. He calls me a fanboy, yet, says Itachi destroyed Nagato.

I will leave all that aside because honestly, i am like debating against a wall. And it seems that, in all of your "neat" argument, you agreed that Itachi could only defeat Nagato with help.

Or at least, that's what i got. If that's so, i will avoid the stubborn wall say you were agreeing.

If i was wrong and you think Itachi can defeat Nagato + Gedo Mazo by himself. Go make the thread and we will continue there. The Naruto and Bee downplay (still in effect) using the same argument i am trying to counter as if i were the one making it bored me. 

This thread is to see who's the most overrated, and you, my friend, made me even more sure about my previous choice: Itachi being the most overrated character by much in this forum.


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

For me i think everyone agree hidan is the weakest. This much is obvious 

kishi also called him the slowest akatsuki member. To make up for it, he made hidan even more dangerous than sasori where by a scratch and he utterly murders you if he can manage to scratch you. 

kishi also gave him an immortal body so depending on the attack he could just run straight through it and get his much needed scratch. 

To me hidan is fairly rated and is considered j*ustifiably the weakest. *

Konan to me would be the *second weakest *despite a good portion of the forum disagreeing while i think the other portion of the forum would agree. 

Her jutsu is very good for taking hits no doubt. so defensively she is to be reckoned with. However offensively bar explosive tags she doesnt have much else going for her. 

truth is despite my denial it seems whilst she is in her paper form for as long as she has chakra killing her will be a tall order. it would take nuke type attacks or repeated barrage attacks to take her down. 

I do not however believe she can just go about taking any and all attacks while in paper form. not only is it chakra intensive to do so, but also if all paper is damaged what happens to her? she doesnt create paper. its formed from her body. 
to me this means her ability to reform is limited. Hence why she didnt just reform out of the leftover pieces of paper when jiriaya caught her with oil+ his hair.  

*offensively she falls below kakuzu, sasori, deidara and kisame. while defensively she is only better than deidara. *

The *3rd weakest will be kakuzu* some say he is underrated while others overrate him. All in All i havent seen anyone rank him above kisame or sasori for the most part. 

defensively he is also sturdy, bar nukes and raiton he is going to be tanking jutsu for the most part. 

Deidara is the 4th weakest. 
while he doesnt have much going for him defensively unlike all akatsuki when you think about it. 

he got some proper evasive techniques. and in terms of fire power is the second best nuke in the akatsuki. 

to me he should be above the bottom 3 when he got jutsu such as C4. 

Kisame is just in the middle. And is *what you call the perfect mid tier akatsuki. *
we all know about him. For the most part he is one member who is neither underestmated or overestimated. 

Sasori to me would be just above him. if we talk threat level. and the fact that kisame power really is only proportional to who he is fighting. (Yes turrin i agree with you!!) i think this might be why kisame fightign kakashi in part 1 would be considered tough for him, while kisame is able to tackle bijuu and fight killer bee

both of which would flatten a kakashi without MS. 

We all know about sasori hype and jutsu from the other threads so wont get into them. for me based on deidara statement, Db stats, kazekage hype and sasori conquering a country he should be considered in the upper half of akatsuki. 

Orochimaru gets underrated alot. *I think most forget he also uses poison*. which i never hear mentioned when someone is fighting orochimaru. orochimaru also got Edo tensei which even at part 1 level arent easy to deal with based on the fact that they cant die and will keep coming back for more. 

orochimaru also has senjutsu something again no one seems to remember, we saw how senjutsu increased the size of kabuto snakes. 

lastly with a touch orochimaru can seal a person chakra casually with 5 prung seal, or bite them and screw up their chakra. As the person tries to draw in chakra the cursed seal will use it up. So thats 2 different ways orochimaru can screw most ninja in 1 hit yet this is hardly ever mentioned. 

For this point on we got itachi who gets overrated, however somehow is always put as 3rd strongest in akatsuki

then nagato and obito who are simply at the top of the group. 

i think if anyone
-  listed out their jutsu and looked at it objectively. 
- looked at their hype and feats 

The ranking is pretty solid

none of those below orochimaru ranking have any way to deal with Edo tensei for example.


----------



## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

In fairness after reading this thread and reconsidering things I don't think Itachi is really overrated anymore. Itachi is generally placed correctly even by die hards, these days. He's most placed as 3rd strongest Akatsuki and comparable to Base-Minato, which at his best, I.E. Edo [or if a Healthy-Itachi ever existed] is perfectly reasonable. And despite the bluster of a few die hards, most people place him appropriately bellow Nagato/Pain, even Strategoob, placed him lower than Pain, so that really goes to show it's only extreme die hards that still latch onto this belief. Back in the day Itachi being really overrated was a problem, because people used to argue Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi was this strong despite the huge handicaps of illness and blindness, but in recent years that's fallen away now that people have Edo-Itachi's feats to draw from. The only ridiculous pro-Itachi argument that still exists is how far any incarnation of Itachi, whether it be Edo or Hebi-Sasuke-Fight, is above the Sannin, and that Jiraiya couldn't be equal to any incarnation of Itachi. But I tend to think that most people making these assertions deep down actually don't believe this shit, and simply can't admit they were wrong, since the whole Itachi vs Sannin debate was such a massive point of contention for years.

Nowadays, Itachi is really not at all thee most overrated Akatsuki. Deidara takes the title and it's not even remotely close. I mean just comparing some peoples rankings of Itachi and Deidara, this is indisputable. Sorry to keep using Strategoob, but his post is right there. Itachi is placed fine at 3rd, yet  some madness has compelled him to place Deidara 4th. Taking a look back at a 2013/2014 threads about Akatsuki rankings, here are some other examples:

1) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Tobi
Pain
Itachi
Orochimaru
Konan
Deidara
Kisame
Sasori
Hidan
Kakuzu
Zetsu




Itachi is fine at third. Deidara, placed above Sasori, is ridiculous

2) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Tobi
2. Pain
3. Itachi
4. Kisame
5. Kakuzu
6. Deidara
7. Orochimaru
8. Sasori
9. Konan
10. Hidan
11. Zetsu




Itachi again fine at third, Deidara above Orochimaru and Sasori is ridiculous

3) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Itachi/Pain
2. Obito
3. Sasori
4. Deidara
5. Orochimaru
6. Kisame
7. Kakuzu
8. Konan
9. Hidan
10. Zetsu




Itachi a bit too high being paired with Pain [but it's Niku lol], Deidara above Orochimaru is ridiculous 

4) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Itachi

2. Pain

3.Sasori

4.Obito

5.Deidara

6.Kisame

7.Konan

8.Orochimaru

9.Hidan

10.Kakuzu




Itachi at one is stupid, but I actually find that less offensive than Deidara being 3 spots above Orochimaru, and only one stop away from Obito.

5) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Tobi
2. Pain & Itachi
3. Sasori
4. Kisame
5. Deidara
6. Kakuzu
7. Orochimaru
8. Konan
9. Hidan
10. Zetsu




Itachi a bit high next to Pain, but that's a-lot less offensive than Deidara being 5th above Orochimaru

6) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



1.Obito(With juubi)
2.Madara
3.Obito(Without juubi)
4.Nagato/Pein
5.Itachi
6.Sasuke
7.Kisame
8.Kakuzu
9.Deidara
10.Orochimaru
11.Sasori
12.Suigetsu
13.Konan(Without prep)
14.Hidan
15.Juugo
16.Zetsu(Individually not entire army.)




Again Itachi placed fine. Deidara above Sasori and Orochimaru, is ridiculous. 

7) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Uchiha Madara (Either Madara or Pain for Number 1)
2. Pain
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru
5. Deidara
6. Zetsu
7. Kisame
8. Kakuzu
9. Konan
10. Sasori
11. Hidan




Itachi is fine at 3rd. Deidaraa ranked multiple places above Sasori is ridiculous

8) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Orochimaru (W/Edo Tensei) 
---------Big Gap---------
2. Obito (W/7 Jinchurikis)
---------Big Gap---------
3. Nagato (Healthy)
4. Obito (W/Both Kamui eyes)
5. Paths of Pein (Asura, Animal, Preta, Deva, Nakara, Human)
6. Itachi (Healthy)
7. Orochimaru (Helathy) 
8. Kisame 
9. Kakuzu 
10. Sasuke (Hebi)
11. Deidara
12. Sasori 
-------Medium Gap--------
13. Konan
14. Jugo 
15. Hidan 
16. Suigetsu 
17. Karin
18. White Zetsu 




Itachi fine. Deidara above Sasori again.

9) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Obito (Rinnegan)
Nagato
Obito (Pre-Rinnegan)
Itachi
Sasori
Deidara
Sasuke (Hebi)
Orochimaru
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu (White)




Itachi fine, Deidara above Orochimaru again, and some how above Hebi-Sasuke lol

10) 
*Spoiler*: __ 




Obito
Pain
Itachi

Kisame
Deidara/Sasuke
Sasori/Orochimaru
Kakuzu

Konan
Hidan
Zetsu



Itachi fine. Deidara above Sasori/Orochimaru, and on par with Sasuke, whether this be Hebi-Sasuke or MS-Sasuke, makes no sense.

10) 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Pain
Obito
Itachi(sick)
Deidara
Kisame
Sasori
Kakuzu
Hidan
Konan
Zetsu




Itachi fine. Deidara above Sasori and  4th.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

Deidara almost killed Team Gai and Team Kakashi without arms, and captured Gaara in the desert without his best jutsu. Sasori has nothing even remotely close to that feat-wise. Just hype.

His exploding and c4 clones are ridiculously powerful, his clone feints are right up there with the best ninja like Kakashi and Itachi, and he can doton and fly with the best of them. He's powerful.

He's underestimated because Hebi Sasuke, who is IMO on the upper end of Mid Kage, defeated him while holding back, but Hebi Sasuke was geared especially for Deidara's ninjutsu.​


----------



## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara almost killed Team Gai and Team Kakashi without arms​



Please explain how we quantify such a feat? Because we know he's not stronger than all of those Shinobi there combined or and he is an ant in the face of Gai. 



> Sasori has nothing even remotely close to that feat-wise. Just hype.
> 
> His exploding and c4 clones are ridiculously powerful, his clone feints are right up there with the best ninja like Kakashi and Itachi, and he can doton and fly with the best of them. He's powerful.


Sasori and Orochimaru both beat a stronger Kazekage; Sasori also solo'd a country and Orochimaru beat the strongest Gokage [Old-Hiruzen]. They have better stats. Better Jutsu. More experience and intelligence. Hype that dwarfs Deidara's. And Deidara also directly stated Sasori was stronger than him. While Hebi-Sasuke is directly question why he had such a tough time with Deidara if he beat Orochimaru, and excuses Orochimaru's defeat on the premise of him being heavily weakened, which also indicates Orochimaru > Deidara. And nether Orochimaru or Sasori's abilities have a glaring weakness, like Deidara's Kibaku Nendo's huge weakness to Raiton.



> , but Hebi Sasuke was geared especially well to see through and counter Deidara's deadliest tricks.


The manga goes out of it's way to indicate to readers that Hebi-Sasuke would have won regardless with Kirin.​


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 2, 2015)

Saying Itachi is overrated seeing as people tended to support his victories in the BD for the most asinine reasons, imo. Basically his abilities and powers, to what certain arguments made it sound like didn't exist, but people claim they did using weak evidence. 
The overrated part comes in as people actually bought into those weak-ass arguments, though to be fair those numbers began to dwindle a lot when the next bandwagon came in.



LostSelf said:


> Taking away Bee and Naruto and there would've been no ambush as Nagato's attention would've been on Itachi.
> 
> 
> Taking away Bee and Naruto and there would've not been an Amaterasu hit, as the moment Nagato sensed the build up, he would've responded with Shinra Tensei, and Itachi wouldn't have liked that.
> ...



Take away Naruto and Bee, and you'd probably have more of Shinra Tensei destroying Edo Itachi. 

That's why Kabuto had the shared vision up, to try to find Itachi when he reformed... reformed after Shinra Tensei turned him into dust. 

Though then Nagato would be waiting and sensing Itachi to get him into a BT-Ningendo combo.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> In fairness after reading this thread and reconsidering things I don't think Itachi is really overrated anymore. Itachi is generally placed correctly even by die hards, these days. He's most placed as 3rd strongest Akatsuki and comparable to Base-Minato, which at his best, I.E. Edo [or if a Healthy-Itachi ever existed] is perfectly reasonable. And despite the bluster of a few die hards, most people place him appropriately bellow Nagato/Pain, even Strategoob, placed him lower than Pain, so that really goes to show it's only extreme die hards that still latch onto this belief. Back in the day Itachi being really overrated was a problem, because people used to argue Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi was this strong despite the huge handicaps of illness and blindness, but in recent years that's fallen away now that people have Edo-Itachi's feats to draw from. The only ridiculous pro-Itachi argument that still exists is how far any incarnation of Itachi, whether it be Edo or Hebi-Sasuke-Fight, is above the Sannin, and that Jiraiya couldn't be equal to any incarnation of Itachi. But I tend to think that most people making these assertions deep down actually don't believe this shit, and simply can't admit they were wrong, since the whole Itachi vs Sannin debate was such a massive point of contention for years.
> 
> Nowadays, Itachi is really not at all thee most overrated Akatsuki. Deidara takes the title and it's not even remotely close. I mean just comparing some peoples rankings of Itachi and Deidara, this is indisputable. Sorry to keep using Strategoob, but his post is right there. Itachi is placed fine at 3rd, yet  some madness has compelled him to place Deidara 4th. Taking a look back at a 2013/2014 threads about Akatsuki rankings, here are some other examples:
> 
> ...



I agree that Itachi is usually rated fairly these days, but I disagree with the notion that he used to be overrated. On the contrary, Itachi was massively underrated back in the day, before his war arc showings. People thought dying after 2 MS uses was "normal" and argued that Itachi wasn't physically handicapped, despite Zetsu's and Obito's words that his illness fucked him up.

Then Sasuke showed that while MS had its drawbacks, dying after sustained usage was an extreme case and war arc Itachi showed that CQC'ing with guys like B or SM Kabuto was within his capability, confirming Zetsu's remarks about how he should have fought better against Sasuke.

He didn't have Izanami or Yasaka no Magatama before war arc either, so it was impossible to correctly assess his strength. But in the end it turned out that the downplayers were wrong and those who "overrated" him were right.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

Lol not exactly 
U got the itschi tards and haters equally 

However a gross exaggeration is when people think he can hold a candle to Nagato 

Granted he won't get flattened by the first ST thanks to susanoo . But Nagato fire power and stamina horribly outdoes his that it can never be a debate 

Yet Grimm you think it is . Which is a massive exaggeration of itachi abiltiies


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol not exactly
> U got the itschi tards and haters equally
> 
> However a gross exaggeration is when people think he can hold a candle to Nagato
> ...



Thats like your opinion man.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

Bitter much ?
It isn't just mine 
Only tards think that 

When kishi had KcM+bee+ itschi face Nagato . That's for a reason 

Next thing you know it would be onoki can face madara on his own Cuz he hit madara with Jinton 

Clear difference in level  . Nagato thought jiriaya who has been mentioned as itschi equal could beat paths of pain only if he had knowledge  

KCM Naruto put Nagato far above paths of pain . Go figure that fan Dom lol!! 

Don't pout


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Difference being:

Team Itachi _stomped_ Nagato. It wasn't a fight.

They weren't so much as scratched, and they sealed him within pages.

And technically, Kishi had Itachi solo Nagato first.

And he had Itachi  _twice_ before sealing him. Within pages.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

But bee +KCM +itachi>>>>>>>>>> itachi

Itachi ambushed Nagato . Something that couldn't happen in 1 on 1 

Just saying . Deva is leveling Konoha . Imagine Nagato fire power . Just saying 

I don't get how people can match him up against EMS madara yet some match him up against itachi who is tiers and tiers below 

The forum so confused


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Deidara can level Konoha too, and he has about as much business fighting Edo Madara as Nagato does.​


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

Fair enough a rinnegan user being compared to Deidara 
Not bad


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

No matter how we try to highlight Itachi with faulty technicalities or by calling the trio "team Itachi", fact still remains: the guy is too weak to fight the likes of Nagato. The dude couldn't even beat Pain.

In fact Itachi confirmed his best wasn't good enough to take MS Sasuke.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Your opinion about Itachi being little threat to Pain or MS Sasuke is not based on anything factual, however. Most characters have a higher opinion of Itachi as a ninja than Sasuke, including Sasuke.

Black Zetsu had more knowledge of Narutoverse than practically anybody, and he called Itachi completely invincible because of the weapon that paneled Nagato the _instant_ it was brought out. 

Maybe if Nagato had feats of lasting more than a second against Itachi's trump card, I'd say that you're right, and he can't possibly stand a chance against Nagato. But that's not how it went down.

As it stands, the manga didn't conclusively show that Nagato or Itachi could counter the other's ultimate ace, nor did it conclusively prove the opposite. It's biased to say it's certain either way.​


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Your opinion about Itachi being little threat to Pain or MS Sasuke is not based on anything factual, however. Most characters have a higher opinion of Itachi as a ninja than Sasuke, including Sasuke.



You've misinterpreted a lot of characters' views on Itachi in regards to the grand scheme of things. 

Facts say that Itachi can't take MS Sasuke. 



> Black Zetsu had more knowledge of Narutoverse than practically anybody, and he called Itachi completely invincible because of the weapon that paneled Nagato the _instant_ it was brought out.
> 
> Maybe if Nagato had feats of lasting more than a second against Itachi's trump card, I'd say that you're right, and he can't possibly stand a chance against Nagato. But that's not how it went down.
> 
> As it stands, the manga didn't conclusively show that Nagato or Itachi could counter the other's ultimate ace, nor did it conclusively prove the opposite. It's biased to say it's certain either way.



Case in point about massive misinterpretation on your end. 

All arguments even suggesting Itachi is above MS Sasuke are based on nothing but misinterpretations and skewed evidence. A stance that requires you to ignore a lot of things isn't a credible stance.

That's why assuming Itachi could beat MS Sauske, even more laughable at this point Pain, never hold any water. Nothing factual ever backs it up, no evidence is ever used in context.

No proper evidence or reasoning ever existed for Itachi being on that level. Ever. 

So your argument will puzzle a lot, especially as it comes across as "try hard". In that you're trying hard to force hype statements out of context and pass them as absolute facts or using single panels without the overall evidence. IIRC when you use one-two panels, the context you argue tends to be shattered when you look at the wider picture. Oftentimes, that wider picture is the rest of the page. 

So no, your argument for Itachi's power is not persuasive at all.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Link me your "fact" about Itach standing no chance against MS Sasuke, bro.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Link me your "fact" about Itach standing no chance against MS Sasuke, bro.



 This. The only thing that was stated that Sasuke ever surpassed Itachi in was Amaterasu. Besides that, Itachi was really implied to be superior in every way and Sasuke even admits that when he questions how Itachi managed to master Susano'o.

 Even then, Sasuke only surpassed Itachi once he achieved the EMS.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> This. The only thing that was stated that Sasuke ever surpassed Itachi in was Amaterasu. Besides that, Itachi was really implied to be superior in every way and Sasuke even admits that when he questions how Itachi managed to master Susano'o.
> 
> Even then, Sasuke only surpassed Itachi once he achieved the EMS.



We were just told Sasuke's more talented with Enton, he unlocked a jutsu Itachi couldn't, Kagutsuchi on top of having the standard MS trinity.

Itachi was *never* implied to be superior in every way. Sasuke never admitted Itachi was superior; Itachi was the one surprised that Sasuke could use Susanoo.

If by "surpass" you mean had the capacity to completely stomp Itachi, then yes EMS Sasuke did surpass Sasuke. However as per Itachi, MS Sasuke could beat him. No MS is the reason he held back on Sasuke.



Strategoob said:


> Link me your "fact" about Itach standing no chance against MS Sasuke, bro.



Itachi explicitly said the only reason Sasuke wouldn't beat him is because he lacked the MS. Several translations make it clearer. What happened as a result? Itachi held back by not using Susanoo.

No link because you've been linked this several times in the past, so you're well aware of tje panels in question, and the supporting translations, by now.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Let me show you the difference between your BS and the manga:



			
				Munboy said:
			
		

> Itachi explicitly said the only reason Sasuke wouldn't beat him is because he lacked the MS.





*Hint:* "Stand a chance."



			
				Munboy said:
			
		

> Itachi held back by not using Susanoo.





*Hint:* "Everything."


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 3, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We were just told Sasuke's more talented with Enton, he unlocked a jutsu Itachi couldn't, Kagutsuchi on top of having the standard MS trinity.



 Well, C refers to Sasuke as being more skilled than Itachi as he can manipulate and control the flames while Itachi couldn't, so sure, it's because Sasuke has Kagtusuchi while Itachi was unable to learn it, however, C refers to Sasuke's superior usage as being "more skilled" which implies C was referring to Sasuke's overall usage of Enton compared to Itachi. I mean, how the fuck would C know that Enton Kagutsuchi is a separate technique from Amaterasu?



> Itachi was *never* implied to be superior in every way. Sasuke never admitted Itachi was superior; Itachi was the one surprised that Sasuke could use Susanoo.



 Itachi casually reacted to his Susano'o. He never displayed signs of shock, he only commended him for being able to learn Susano'o because it's a very rare technique and even Obito implies it as his interest in Sasuke partially has to do with Sasuke being one of the only ones who are able to even use Susano'o. 

 Never implied to be superior in any way? His Shuriken-ninjutsu, hand-seal speed, intelligence, taijutsu, and genjutsu are all implied and shown to be superior to Sasuke's in every way. Even Sasuke questions how Itachi managed to even master Susano'o which was Sasuke's main interest in testing out his abilities. It seems clear that Susano'o would certainly set them apart given that.



> If by "surpass" you mean had the capacity to completely stomp Itachi, then yes EMS Sasuke did surpass Sasuke. However as per Itachi, MS Sasuke could beat him. No MS is the reason he held back on Sasuke.



 That's not very convincing. I want feats or statements that implies MS Sasuke can beat MS Itachi.


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2015)

I don't think Black Zetsu is very reliable. The man didn't know what Susano'o was, despite seeing the fight with Hashirama and Madara.

Also, Itachi never solo'd Nagato in a straight fight. Then again, the same Rock Lee kicking Madara example. Beating an opponent that is not defending himself against the enemy's attacks or doesn't even now he is going to be attacked is not very valid to measure how he would do in a face to face confrontation.

Even though they securely defeated Nagato, they were forced to use their strongest attack.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Bitter much ?
> It isn't just mine
> Only tards think that


And I think only tards would make the remarks you did about this subject. 



> When kishi had KcM+bee+ itschi face Nagato . That's for a reason


Thats a common misconception I've been seeing around battledome lately.
When you put it like that, one would think that Nagato vs Itachi + Naruto + B was an actual fight and the trio had some sort of a difficulty. It wasn't even much of a fight, considering how one sided it was.



> Next thing you know it would be onoki can face madara on his own Cuz he hit madara with Jinton


irrelevant.
Also he didn't hit Madara, Madara was fucking with them and allowed himself to be hit and later on he got pissed and offpanelled them.
Major difference.



> Clear difference in level  . Nagato thought jiriaya who has been mentioned as itschi equal could beat paths of pain only if he had knowledge


If you take Jiraiya being Itachi's equal remark seriously(it automatically makes you one of the 2 or 3 people on the forum btw), then you have to take the rest of Itachi's statement seriously as well. Which means Itachi + Kisame and more back up wouldn't make a difference against Jiraiya. That back up being other member or members of Akatsuki(which may or may not include stronger members, like Pain). Food for thought.



Strategoob said:


> Let me show you the difference between your BS and the manga:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Typical Munboy. Spouting the same bullshit for the last 7 years(despite all contrary and new evidence), and then dissapears when someone shows him a couple of manga pages


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Typical Munboy. Spouting the same bullshit for the last 7 years(despite all contrary and new evidence), and then dissapears when someone shows him a couple of manga pages



Except the "evidence" used for Itachi doesn't actually exist. Good evidence doesn't involve distorting context.


*Spoiler*: _Response to Mister Goob_ 





Strategoob said:


> Let me show you the difference between your BS and the manga:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No Gooby, you're doing exactly what I said makes Itachi arguments weak. 
Focus on one/two pieces of evidence and distort the meaning. 

We both know put in context, with other neglected evidence, MS Sasuke>Itachi is canon. Also wrong panel Itachi panel. 




---



NarutoX28 said:


> Well, C refers to Sasuke as being more skilled than Itachi as he can manipulate and control the flames while Itachi couldn't, so sure, it's because Sasuke has Kagtusuchi while Itachi was unable to learn it, however, C refers to Sasuke's superior usage as being "more skilled" which implies C was referring to Sasuke's overall usage of Enton compared to Itachi. I mean, how the fuck would C know that Enton Kagutsuchi is a separate technique from Amaterasu?



I just said that Kagutsuchi point. Perhaps Kagutsuchi just denotes the skill to freely manipulate Enton. However manipulating the flames is supposed to be seen as a distinct ability from using Amaterasu. 

How would C know? He wouldn't, this is one of those cases where the reader knows more than the character.



> Itachi casually reacted to his Susano'o. He never displayed signs of shock, he only commended him for being able to learn Susano'o because it's a very rare technique and even Obito implies it as his interest in Sasuke partially has to do with Sasuke being one of the only ones who are able to even use Susano'o.
> 
> Never implied to be superior in any way? His Shuriken-ninjutsu, hand-seal speed, intelligence, taijutsu, and genjutsu are all implied and shown to be superior to Sasuke's in every way. Even Sasuke questions how Itachi managed to even master Susano'o which was Sasuke's main interest in testing out his abilities. It seems clear that Susano'o would certainly set them apart given that.



I never denied that Itachi casually reacted to Sasuke's Susanoo. Why should shock be present to suggest that Itachi was surpassed by MS Sasuke?
MS Sasuke has the capacity to beat Itachi, it doesn't mean he'll stomp him. It means he can beat him; stomping means whipping out Perfect Susanoo and overwhelming Itachi. 

The shuriken Ninjutsu is reaching a bit; that doesn't make a difference comparing Sasuke and Itachi. Sasuke kept up with Itachi's shuriken jutsu. 

Taijutsu, pure Taijutsu, you get that. But seldom do fights involve pure Taijutsu; their pure Taijutsu fight was in an illusion. So this makes no significant difference either. 

Intelligence is a hard thing to argue for. You can be smart, but if you're not strong enough to beat your foe, then it doesn't matter how smart you are. That's why Shikamaru needed back up against the Immortals and why Itachi needed back up against Kabuto and Nagato.

When did Sasuke question how Itachi mastered Susanoo? Susanoo does set them apart; Sasuke can imbue Enton onto his.



> That's not very convincing. I want feats or statements that implies MS Sasuke can beat MS Itachi.



Statements, Itachi himself. 
surprised
surprised
surprised

Those pages. Now here are various translations:


*Spoiler*: _Chapter 387; middle and bottom right panels_ 






*Spoiler*: _Translation 1_ 



_"目的を果たす時が来た
Sasuke: It's time that I fulfill my goal.

お前には　オレの死に様が見えてるらしいが
Itachi: You said that you see my death...

万華鏡写輪眼を持つオレには勝てはしない
Itachi: But you cannot win against me, because I have Mangekyou Sharingan.

お前の目的は残念だが　幻に終わる
Itachi: I'm afraid your goal will stay an illusion

なぜならお前は万華鏡を持ってはいない
Itachi: since you do not possess Mangekyou."_​

Tora-chan

Only because he lacks the MS, his dream won't come true.





*Spoiler*: _Translation 2_ 





_Sasuke: I've come to fulfill my goal.

Itachi: You have not truly seen my death... without the Mangekyou Sharingan you cannot win me.

Sadly, your goal will forever remain an illusion... because you failed to obtain the Mangekyou
_​
Germinc

Same thing as #1.






*Spoiler*: _Translation 3_ 





_1
[insert text: The time... has finally come. These two brothers, forever chasing one another, finally begin the battle to determine who lives... and who dies.]

Sasuke: It's finally time for me to achieve my goal.

Itachi: You say that you foresee the manner in which I shall die... // ...but you can never defeat me. I have the Mangekyou Sharingan. // I'm afraid you are merely chasing after a phantom goal. // For the sole reason that you do not possess the Mangekyou._​
Carlos Net

Same thing as #1 and #2.










*Spoiler*: _Chapter 388; top right panel within the first link of this chapter + top panels within the second link of ch 388_ 






*Spoiler*: _Translation 1_ 





_万華鏡を持たない
お前が
この眼を持つオレに
敵うはずがないと
Your normal eyes won't stand a chance against my Mangekyou._​
Other page:

_これが
力の差だ
This is our difference in strength

お前とオレの
瞳力の差だ
The difference in level your and my eyes are on._​
Itachi purely attributed the difference in strength between them to only their ocular powers.

NJT






*Spoiler*: _Translation 2_ 





_だから言ったのだ
万華鏡を持たないお前が　この眼を持つオレに敵うはずがないと
Itachi: I already told you,
you are no match for me, since I possess Mangekyou and you do not.
_​
Other page

_7p
これが力の差だ
Itachi: This is the difference in strength between you and me.

お前とオレの瞳力の差だ
Itachi: The difference in the power of our eyes._​
Tora-chan

Same as #1






*Spoiler*: _Translation 3_ 





_
Page 3:
Itachi: I warned you.
Without the Mangekyou Sharingan, you don't stand a chance against me.
_​
Other page

_Page 7:
Itachi: This is the gap between our power.
SFX: Twist.

Itachi: And the gap between our eyes.
SFX: Sssh_​

HissouBuraiKen

Same thing as #1 and #2






*Spoiler*: _Translation 4_ 





_3
Itachi: As I told you... / You who have not the Mangekyou can never hope to match me.
Zetsu: !
Sasuke: Ngh... aaaghhh... // *pant* // *pant* // *pant*_​
Other page

_7
Itachi: This is the difference in our power. // This is just how superior my doujutsu are to your own.
Sasuke: ! // Ngh...!
_​
Carlos Net

Same things as translations #1 to #3.






*Spoiler*: _Translation 5_ 



_
P3:
Itachi: You should have listened

Since you do not posses the Mangekyou, you cannot defeat me _​
Other page

_P7:
Itachi: This is the gap in strength

The gap in strength of "Eyes" between us
_​
Gokuro3

Same as translations #1 to #4.








Itachi purely attributed the difference in strength between himself and Sasuke to only their ocular powers. In fact he explicitly said that without the MS Sasuke can never hope to beat him and without the MS, Sasuke stands no chance.

*This* is why he held back only Susanoo (notice all MS jutsu aimed to attack Sasuke except Susanoo which would've killed him easily). Sasuke stood no chance without the MS. 

Combine this with the other page and MS Sasuke's feats: MS Sasuke>Itachi.
Now bear in mind Itachi made these statements while being surprised Sasuke could actually awaken Susanoo... so really according to Itachi, MS Sasuke without Susanoo stands a chance of beating Itachi.

MS Sasuke with Susanoo defo beats Itachi.


----------



## Turrin (May 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree that Itachi is usually rated fairly these days, but I disagree with the notion that he used to be overrated. On the contrary, Itachi was massively underrated back in the day, before his war arc showings.


Literally the only time Itachi was ever underrated on a large scale is right when I joined the boards in 2006, when some people thought Orochimaru, Deidara, and Hebi-Sasuke were stronger than Itachi. Beyond that he was always overrated, until the War-Arc, because the pro-Itachi camp never accounted for illness and eyesight issues.



> People thought dying after 2 MS uses was "normal"


I've never seen that argument ever. Not saying it didn't happen because there were absurd arguments on both sides, like Itachi can...cough...solo all 9-Bijuu...cough. But from my recollection the main argument was that Itachi could only use MS 3-times and Susano'o briefly. Which to be perfectly honest I've never seen anything that legitimately points towards ill/blind Itachi being able to use MS more than that, with the possible exception of how Tensha-Fuuin Amaterasu was prepared. It's only Edo-Itachi that breaks the mold as far as this is concerned and that is very hard to quantify, because Edo-Itachi didn't have eye-sight issues, faster stamina regen, and Kishi played fast and loose with shinobi's chakra supplies in the War-Arc in general.



> and argued that Itachi wasn't physically handicapped, despite Zetsu's and Obito's words that his illness fucked him up.


Again an argument I've never seen in all my years on the forum. The argument was and quite franky still is that it's difficult to quantify Healthy-Itachi. We do not know at what point he was "healthy" or "healthiest" and we don't know what if any skills, knowledge, etc... he loose by us going back in time to the point where he was "healthiest"; I.E. Less sick and less blind.

Itachi was never underrated due to this, because we had and still have no means of assessing Healthy-Itachi's abilities. You can't underrate what we have no basis to quantify. That's why Edo-Itachi was the turning point, because we finally got an incarnation of Itachi that had none of these drawbacks, but retained all of his skills/knowledge, he may or may not have had back when he was "healthiest". 

Rather on the other hand Itachi was overrated, back then because again the pro-Itachi argument liked to pretend that Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi = their fannon version of what Healthy-Itachi should be, I.E. increased speed, stamina, etc, no MS-draw-backs...while loosing none of his knowledge or skills. 



> Then Sasuke showed that while MS had its drawbacks, dying after sustained usage was an extreme case


Sasuke kind of explicitly showed how bad MS-Draw-backs were, considering how the dude went blind after two major fights in the Kages-Arc and by the time he "mastered" Susano'o, so if anything MS-Sasuke supported the notion that an Itachi with good eyesight and health, but still having the same skills, probably never existed until Edo-Itachi hit the scene.



> and war arc Itachi showed that CQC'ing with guys like B or SM Kabuto was within his capability, confirming Zetsu's remarks about how he should have fought better against Sasuke.


I really don't remember anyone doubting that Itachi would have performed better in CQC than he did against Sasuke. The dude was hit by a rather basic trap and some relatively fodder Katons. Everyone acknowledged that this was because of illness and blindness. The issue of contention there was, people would make Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi threads and the pro-Itachi camp would directly ignore how he performed against these things, because hey he was ill/blind, but literally the thread was about an ill/blinding Itachi. Which again goes back to he was overrated because pro-Itachi argument ignored the draw-backs he suffered.



> He didn't have Izanami or Yasaka no Magatama before war arc either, so it was impossible to correctly assess his strength.


Izanami honestly changes almost nothing about his strength, except in Team battles. Magatama was relavant because before he lacked ranged Techniques. Which back in the day is why people argued Itachi would have a tough time against people like Deidara. However fast forward to today and people still argue Deidara can potentially win or push Itachi to high-Extreme diff, so nothing has really changed and Deidara except the argument for Deidara is much less justifiable now, so to me that was more of overrating Deidara. 



> But in the end it turned out that the downplayers were wrong and those who "overrated" him were right.


Itachi getting a new power that eliminated all draw-backs he once had, doesn't make someone wrong or right, anymore than Minato-fans saying Minato was soooo much stronger than certain characters, are proven right because Minato got KCM/BM. At the end of the day, we still don't know who was right or wrong when it comes to Healthier-Itachi, as we still to this day have never seen said Itachi. Though we do know that Hebi-Sasuke-Fight-Itachi was overrated as fuck. So it seems to me like the end result is the pro-Itachi camp gets a win in the sense that now they have a realistic argument thanks to Edo-Perks, the opposing side gets a win because it's very clear Hebi-Sasuke-Fight-Itachi was overrated as fuck, and the Healthy-Itachi argument still remains up for discussion and probably always will be, unless Kishi eventually makes an Itachi Gaiden spin-off or movie.

Edit: And I should also add that both sides were trolled and now look like assess when it comes to Parallels meaning anything for ether side of the discussion, because Kishi fucking paralleled whored to the point where everyone parallels with everyone now, probably can find fucking parallels between Tonton and Jiriaya/Itachi these days


----------



## Sadgoob (May 3, 2015)

Some others I remember:

Some posters thought Itachi had to stand still to use genjutsu.

Some posters thought Itachi had to stand still to use Susano'o.

Some posters thought Killer Bee was going to blitz Edo Itachi.


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## Trojan (May 3, 2015)

Even tho itachi is extremely overrated, but I think Pain/Nagato are overrated too. 
Anyone around SM Jiraiya level will give a great fight, and although itachi is weaker, but he is more or less
there. So, yeah, I don't think itachi would get fodderstompped or something ridiculous like that.

@Turrin

What about itachi giving 4 of the 5 Kages a high difficult fight, and even killing some of them?


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## Turrin (May 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Even tho itachi is extremely overrated, but I think Pain/Nagato are overrated too.
> Anyone around SM Jiraiya level will give a great fight, and although itachi is weaker, but he is more or less
> there. So, yeah, I don't think itachi would get fodderstompped or something ridiculous like that.


Define good fight. A fully prepped out Pain-Arc Naruto is certainly around SM-Jiriaya and Itachi's "level", and he was still defeated by a handicapped Pain-Rikudo, who didn't use any of Nagato's best Jutsu [CST, CT, GRT, or GM]. If anything I find Nagato underestimated, while he couldn't use them on the same scale as Gods, he had some of thee best Jutsu in the entire manga-cannon. 



> What about itachi giving 4 of the 5 Kages a high difficult fight, and even killing some of them?


I'm not counting outlandish statements, which were made on both sides of the discussion, though granted much more so on the pro-Itachi end. I'm talking about the general consensus of the forum. Itachi at his best is no generally rated around Top of Mid-Kage or High-Kage, depending how someone lays out their ranks and 3rd strongest Akatsuki. Which is fair given Edo-perks.


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## Mashiba Ryō (May 3, 2015)

Most overrated: Itachi

Most underrated: Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Literally the only time Itachi was ever underrated on a large scale is right when I joined the boards in 2006, when some people thought Orochimaru, Deidara, and Hebi-Sasuke were stronger than Itachi. Beyond that he was always overrated, until the War-Arc, because the pro-Itachi camp never accounted for illness and eyesight issues.


Umm how could people claim that @ that point ? Sasuke vs Itachi fight was 2008. I've heard people say Hebi Sasuke was stronger or just as strong as Itachi but that was in 2008.

In 2006, Itachi's powers were almost unknown. Whoever said that was clearly retarded.



> I've never seen that argument ever. Not saying it didn't happen because there were absurd arguments on both sides, like Itachi can...cough...solo all 9-Bijuu...cough. But from my recollection the main argument was that Itachi could only use MS 3-times and Susano'o briefly. Which to be perfectly honest I've never seen anything that legitimately points towards ill/blind Itachi being able to use MS more than that, with the possible exception of how Tensha-Fuuin Amaterasu was prepared. It's only Edo-Itachi that breaks the mold as far as this is concerned and that is very hard to quantify, because Edo-Itachi didn't have eye-sight issues, faster stamina regen, and Kishi played fast and loose with shinobi's chakra supplies in the War-Arc in general.


I've heard that argument dozens of times. 3 MS uses and brief Susano'o was* sick* Itachi's limitation, btw. 
People thought that kind of MS usage would kill the user regardless of the condition they were in. Sasuke has shown otherwise.
I guess people simply neglected the fact that Itachi was already dying from a fatal illness.

There is no evidence that Edo Itachi didn't have eyesight issues. We didn't know living Itachi had eyesight issues until Kishimoto showed the world through his perspective because being half blind didn't effect his perofrmance.



> Again an argument I've never seen in all my years on the forum. The argument was and quite franky still is that it's difficult to quantify Healthy-Itachi. We do not know at what point he was "healthy" or "healthiest" and we don't know what if any skills, knowledge, etc... he loose by us going back in time to the point where he was "healthiest"; I.E. Less sick and less blind.


If I had nothing better to do, I'd go back to the archives and dig out some Itachi threads for you. But seriously this was one of the biggest underestimations back in the day.
The notion that a perfectly healthy person and a person in their deathbed would have the same physical capabilities, despite the authors own words that they would not. But yeah whatever.



> Itachi was never underrated due to this, because we had and still have no means of assessing Healthy-Itachi's abilities. You can't underrate what we have no basis to quantify. That's why Edo-Itachi was the turning point, because we finally got an incarnation of Itachi that had none of these drawbacks, but retained all of his skills/knowledge, he may or may not have had back when he was "healthiest".


I never used healthy Itachi as a basis for my argument either, before war arc that is. I am just saying that people didn't even acknowledge the fact that Itachi was performing poorly because his poor physical condition. I had to spend hours to make my point clear. God bless war arc(though I hate saying that given how shitty in general it was).



> Rather on the other hand Itachi was overrated, back then because again the pro-Itachi argument liked to pretend that Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi = their fannon version of what Healthy-Itachi should be, I.E. increased speed, stamina, etc, no MS-draw-backs...while loosing none of his knowledge or skills.


That is what healthy Itachi would have been, and turned out to be, so I guess everything worked out eh ? 




> Sasuke kind of explicitly showed how bad MS-Draw-backs were, considering how the dude went blind after two major fights in the Kages-Arc and by the time he "mastered" Susano'o, so if anything MS-Sasuke supported the notion that an Itachi with good eyesight and health, but still having the same skills, probably never existed until Edo-Itachi hit the scene.


He also showed that sustained usage didn't kill the user, that was my point.

Also Itachi retaining his sight during the 8 years he had MS debunks your second point, doesn't it ? 

As far as we know, the blindness didn't advance the same for everyone. Madara went blind when his brothers(who awakened MS around the same time) eyes were perfectly fine, apparently. And even if we assume that Itachi used MS just as much as Sasuke did, then it doesn't make much difference considering half blind Itachi still had pinpoint accuracy. Vision wasn't his problem, his illness was.



> I really don't remember anyone doubting that Itachi would have performed better in CQC than he did against Sasuke. The dude was hit by a rather basic trap and some relatively fodder Katons. Everyone acknowledged that this was because of illness and blindness. The issue of contention there was, people would make Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi threads and the pro-Itachi camp would directly ignore how he performed against these things, because hey he was ill/blind, but literally the thread was about an ill/blinding Itachi. Which again goes back to he was overrated because pro-Itachi argument ignored the draw-backs he suffered.


Oh no, not at all.
The problem was, anti Itachi camp completely ignored the circumstances of the Itachi fight, and claimed that Itachi's performance was a true reflection of his abilities and his illness didn't play a part in it. Hell, ask munboy now, and he'll say the same thing probably.



> Izanami honestly changes almost nothing about his strength, except in Team battles. Magatama was relavant because before he lacked ranged Techniques. Which back in the day is why people argued Itachi would have a tough time against people like Deidara. However fast forward to today and people still argue Deidara can potentially win or push Itachi to high-Extreme diff, so nothing has really changed and Deidara except the argument for Deidara is much less justifiable now, so to me that was more of overrating Deidara.


Izanami would allow Itach to easily defeat Obito or Danzo, so I have no idea what you'r talking about.
Also no one thinks Deidara can push Itachi to extreme dif now, maybe except you. And Magatama is an overall useful technique, that can be used @ any range. But yeah, Itachi has all his ranges covered now, which is a significant difference no matter how you look @ it.

Its funny how you'r still trying to downplay the guy. I guess that is unintentional @ this point 



> Itachi getting a new power that eliminated all draw-backs he once had, doesn't make someone wrong or right, anymore than Minato-fans saying Minato was soooo much stronger than certain characters, are proven right because Minato got KCM/BM.


Major difference is, Itachi didn't gain a new "power up" by the virtue of being an ET zombie. He simply displayed a new technique that he already had but didn't show.

Minato having BM was something no one anticipated and it only became availabe  to him because he was ressurected. Normally, he sealed the Kyuubi inside himself @ the cost of his own life. Living Minato would never have Kyuubi. Living Itachi had Magatama, Shisui's eye and Izanami.

So no, these 2 situations aren't remotely similar. 

Nice try tho 



> At the end of the day, we still don't know who was right or wrong when it comes to Healthier-Itachi, as we still to this day have never seen said Itachi. Though we do know that Hebi-Sasuke-Fight-Itachi was overrated as fuck. So it seems to me like the end result is the pro-Itachi camp gets a win in the sense that now they have a realistic argument thanks to Edo-Perks, the opposing side gets a win because it's very clear Hebi-Sasuke-Fight-Itachi was overrated as fuck, and the Healthy-Itachi argument still remains up for discussion and probably always will be, unless Kishi eventually makes an Itachi Gaiden spin-off or movie.


Edo Itachi is basically healthy Itachi, who has* peak physical condition and doesn't keel over and cough blood and die during a fight*. Which was my only argument back in the day. So I am content with it.

Regenerating body is probably the only thing that seperates both, and Itachi had to rely on that only during the Kabuto battle only. 

Before you bring Edo stamina regen, Itachi never spammed anything during his individual fights, so it was never an issue. You may argue that he didn't need to rest between fights, but then, it is irrelevant to how he normally performs during one battle.



> Edit: And I should also add that both sides were trolled and now look like assess when it comes to Parallels meaning anything for ether side of the discussion, because Kishi fucking paralleled whored to the point where everyone parallels with everyone now, probably can find fucking parallels between Tonton and Jiriaya/Itachi these days



If anything, Itachi / Minato parallel got stronger, and the Itachi / Jiraiya parallel simply dissapeared as it should have been, once Jiraiya lost all his relevance.


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## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

> If anything, Itachi / Minato parallel got stronger,



No such parallel was made tho, no? 
When has the manga ever compared those 2? 
If it does not exist to begin with, it can't get any stronger. 

@Turrin

like in defeating 2 or 3 paths for example. I don't believe in the nonsense people say about how almost any character would die for ST right away.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No such parallel was made tho, no?
> When has the manga ever compared those 2?



Comparison =/= Parallel.

Learn  your terminology.


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## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

Still, what parallels are there between them exactly?


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## Duhul10 (May 4, 2015)

Sm Jiraiya and Alive Itachi ( ,, healthy '' ) are comparable and mostly, the Itachi fans, because they Could not  win the J vs I threads ( not saying the threads were won in Jiraiya's favor either ), tried to compare Itachi with someone that was highly praised by Jiraiya and stronger than him ( even tough the Gap is not even Close to ,, huge '' ). By feats and portrayal, Minato was clearly stronger than Itachi ( maybe bar Edo itachi, but i still think Minato is better )
. Of course the only ones that were arguing for Itachi were His fans and they were loosing Mostly, but HEY, the threads exist so that means Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>> Sm Jiraiya.
In reality imo these three ninjas are in the category of high kage ( two at the bottom, one around the top ) . I do not want to start another war because it doesn't worth it .


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Sm Jiraiya and Alive Itachi ( ,, healthy '' ) are comparable and mostly, the Itachi fans, because they Could not  win the J vs I threads ( not saying the threads were won in Jiraiya's favor either ), tried to compare Itachi with someone that was highly praised by Jiraiya and stronger than him ( even tough the Gap is not even Close to ,, huge '' ). By feats and portrayal, Minato was clearly stronger than Itachi ( maybe bar Edo itachi, but i still think Minato is better )
> . Of course the only ones that were arguing for Itachi were His fans and they were loosing Mostly, but HEY, the threads exist so that means Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>> Sm Jiraiya.
> In reality imo these three ninjas are in the category of high kage ( two at the bottom, one around the top ) . I do not want to start another war because it doesn't worth it .



Itachi was leading the polls with 60% and more @ times even before the war arc in these forums.
After the war arc, the debate pretty much died because it wasn't interesting anymore.So I have no idea what you'r talking about.



Hussain said:


> Still, what parallels are there between them exactly?



This isn't the tread for it. But all I can say is that, way too many.


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## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Sm Jiraiya and Alive Itachi ( ,, healthy '' ) are comparable and mostly, the Itachi fans, because they Could not  win the J vs I threads ( not saying the threads were won in Jiraiya's favor either ), tried to compare Itachi with someone that was highly praised by Jiraiya and stronger than him ( even tough the Gap is not even Close to ,, huge '' ). By feats and portrayal, Minato was clearly stronger than Itachi ( maybe bar Edo itachi, but i still think Minato is better )
> . Of course the only ones that were arguing for Itachi were His fans and they were loosing Mostly, but HEY, the threads exist so that means Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>> Sm Jiraiya.
> In reality imo these three ninjas are in the category of high kage ( two at the bottom, one around the top ) . I do not want to start another war because it doesn't worth it .



The funny part is we were actually shown how much do MS users worth in comparison

The same with comparing them to SM users as well.  


Grimmjowsensei said:


> This isn't the tread for it. But all I can say is that, way too many.



As you please.


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## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Umm how could people claim that @ that point ? Sasuke vs Itachi fight was 2008. I've heard people say Hebi Sasuke was stronger or just as strong as Itachi but that was in 2008.
> 
> In 2006, Itachi's powers were almost unknown. Whoever said that was clearly retarded.


People assumed he could do it, because that's what he trained to do. I think the Sasuke thing was more fair, than Orochimaru being stronger.



> I've heard that argument dozens of times. 3 MS uses and brief Susano'o was sick Itachi's limitation, btw.
> People thought that kind of MS usage would kill the user regardless of the condition they were in. Sasuke has shown otherwise.
> I guess people simply neglected the fact that Itachi was already dying from a fatal illness.


Yes, but I repeat, most of the time the discussion back then was about sick/blind-Itachi.



> There is no evidence that Edo Itachi didn't have eyesight issues. We didn't know living Itachi had eyesight issues until Kishimoto showed the world through his perspective because being half blind didn't effect his perofrmance.


No evidence lol. After using 2 Amaterasu Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi lost Sharingan in that eye. After 1 Tsukuyomi and Susano'o Itachi lost his other Sharingan. If Edo did not mitigate blindness Itachi would have lost Sharingan in at least his right eye during the Nagato battle and his left during the Kabuto battle.



> If I had nothing better to do, I'd go back to the archives and dig out some Itachi threads for you. But seriously this was one of the biggest underestimations back in the day.
> The notion that a perfectly healthy person and a person in their deathbed would have the same physical capabilities, despite the authors own words that they would not. But yeah whatever.


The only thing I can think off that you referring to is people who discussed whether illness or blindness hurt Itachi more. 

Though again i'm not going to say it wasn't said, but I will say that I don't believe it was a popular argument.



> I never used healthy Itachi as a basis for my argument either, before war arc that is. I am just saying that people didn't even acknowledge the fact that Itachi was performing poorly because his poor physical condition. I had to spend hours to make my point clear. God bless war arc(though I hate saying that given how shitty in general it was).


The problem with these arguments always was, that ether A) it was being argued in Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi threads, or B) People were arguing for a very specific view point on what Healthy-Itachi had to be, while not acknowledging any other possibilities.



> He also showed that sustained usage didn't kill the user, that was my point.


He also wasn't sick like Itachi though, so not really. Like we directly saw it did kill Itachi, so I don't see how that can be discounted. 



> Also Itachi retaining his sight during the 8 years he had MS debunks your second point, doesn't it ?


 I don't think anyone believed Itachi or Sasuke were actually blind. Blind was just used as a way to talk about their vision being really bad. And Itachi's eyesight was pretty terrible man. 1 MS usage and he was seeing triple vision. 2 MS usages and his Sharingan in that eye faded.



> As far as we know, the blindness didn't advance the same for everyone. Madara went blind when his brothers(who awakened MS around the same time) eyes were perfectly fine, apparently. /QUOTE]
> It seems to me that by the time the MS Techs are awakened and the users lears how to use the MS-Techs proficiently they have a significant loss in eye-sight, especially when it comes to achieving Susano'o "Final-Form". It's probably never exactly the same amount of loss, but it should be quite significant.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Duhul10 (May 4, 2015)

What i am talking about is that in threads, Itachi is supported only by His blind slaves ( fanboys ) and by some other that are only big fans (these are the less noisy ones). I have  never seen a neutral poster to support Itachi in a thread against strong enemies.
And we know all know that Itachi is easily one of the Most overrated in the NV. Itachi has lots of fanboys and fangirls, actually he has the Most in the series. These guys never Bring serious arguments and usually end up trolling like they do not give a ...., but in reality they end up crying in their corner ( I am adressing to nobody in this forum , so do not Take it personal ).
The other guys are far more realists and less hypocrites and usually Bring more solid arguments and happily i have seen these type of fans on this forum
I agree with you about the war arc part, because Itachi gained some new interesting feats, but while Alive he is not. ,, tiers" over Jiraiya , he is in Exactly the same tier and they Both win against each other depending on the OP


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@duhul most would say the same about you and jiriaya though 
So statements like that are massively unnecessary just saying 

Itachi is no doubt the most overrated however not pointlessly overrated 

I mean despite my firmly disagreeing to hype such as he can do anythjng but loose like a fly to Nagato or YM can destroy CT core 

One must say things like tskuyomi if not for fan restriction and bias 1 shot casually 98% of the verse without tying 

Not only does it have feat hype it has kishi wank which is the best stamp of approval any Jutsu needs


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> People assumed he could do it, because that's what he trained to do. I think the Sasuke thing was more fair, than Orochimaru being stronger.


Well I wasn't here in 2006, so I wouldn't know. But I knew very well what the arguments back in 2008 were like. Hell, I remember how mad people got when Obito explained that Itachi was fatally ill and was holding back on top of that. 



> No evidence lol. After using 2 Amaterasu Hebi-Sasuke-Fight Itachi lost Sharingan in that eye. After 1 Tsukuyomi and Susano'o Itachi lost his other Sharingan. If Edo did not mitigate blindness Itachi would have lost Sharingan in at least his right eye during the Nagato battle and his left during the Kabuto battle.


But it didn't mitigate blindness otherwise Izanami wouldn't cost Itachi an eye.
You may be right that maybe  the edo version restored Itachi's eyes to how they were @ the time he awakened MS, but then I don't think it makes any difference because there was no visible hindrance of his declining eyesight during his fights. 



> He also wasn't sick like Itachi though, so not really. Like we directly saw it did kill Itachi, so I don't see how that can be discounted.


Thats actually what I am saying. Itachi's illness played a major part in his death. 



> I don't think anyone believed Itachi or Sasuke were actually blind. Blind was just used as a way to talk about their vision being really bad. And Itachi's eyesight was pretty terrible man. 1 MS usage and he was seeing triple vision. 2 MS usages and his Sharingan in that eye faded.


I know what it stands for. I am just saying that Sasuke ended up @ the stage Itachi was during their fight, after using MS for like a day.



> It seems to me that by the time the MS Techs are awakened and the users lears how to use the MS-Techs proficiently they have a significant loss in eye-sight, especially when it comes to achieving Susano'o "Final-Form". It's probably never exactly the same amount of loss, but it should be quite significant.



Itachi implied that he had awakened Susano'o along with Amaterasu & Tsukiyomi @ "that day."  And he had it on for 8 years. He used MS a couple of times in part 1, and he didn't keel over and cough blood.



> Oh come on Grim. His eye-sight was at least a big part of the reason he couldn't evade a simple trap Shuriken. And I don't see when he pulled off any masterful feats of accuracy after that Tsukuyomi fucked his vision


. 
I thought he couldn't evade the shuriken because Sasuke broke Tsukiyomi which ended up putting a strain on his eye. I don't his regular shitty eyesight was the problem, otherwise he wouldn't be able to pull all the stunts he pulled earlier or later.

There wasn't much physical engagement after that point, but he still evaded a point plank Katon with that eye and a gashing wound on his leg and avoided Sasuke coming @ him with a chidori in mid air. He also was able to trackdown Sasuke with Amaterasu.
Even when he had literally no vision(both of his eyes were white) he fought off Yamata no Orochi and sealed Orochimaru.



> I'm not counting the statements made by a few. I'm talking about general perception. In general most people didn't acknowledge these things, because in general Itachi-Threads were about Ill/Sick Itachi, not Healthy-Itachi.


I know, but most people wouldn't even accept the fact that Itachi minus the fatal illness, would perform better, as in not keel over and die. 



> No it wouldn't. Izanami countering Izanagi doesn't mean auto win,


 Not auto win, but it is a technique specifically created to counter Izanagi. Its no brainer that it'd make it easier against a person using Izanagi.



> Itachi still has to create Point-A and Point-B, which he stands no chance of doing against Obito


Actually it should be pretty easy to do it against Obito,considering Obito is one of the biggest one trick poines there is(I'm talking about pre-war arc). 



> or Danzo [w/ Koto]. He could do it against Danzo [w/o Koto] maybe, but he has a chance to win against that Danzo regardless. So I still don't see how it helps Itachi 1v1 or allows him any better chances to defeat someone he couldn't otherwise defeat with the same odds using other strategies or better odds.


We all know that Itachi can't afford to fight long fights, like any other MS user. He needs to use his OHKO techniques and end it quick. Izanagi prevents that from happening, so however you look @ it, Izanami is an invaluable asset @ dealing with Izanagi, or in obito's case, evasive shinobi who are somewhat susceptible to Izanami.



> I'll make the thread if you want, that's how confident I am in how overrated as hell Deidara is.


Sure go ahead. But we know for a fact that Itachi is more powerful and smarter than Hebi Sasuke, so @ the very least, Deidara can't push him that far. 



> Your barking way up the wrong tree this time Grim. I don't think Deidara can give any Mid-Kage extreme-diff, except under extremely bias circumstances and against thee absolute weakest Mid-Kages.


I know your stance on Deidara, which is also another extreme case. You are on the other end of the spectrum. 
CIS aside, Deidara has a decent shot @ defeating low - mid Kage levels.



> It's really no difference in terms of discussing him in the NDB imo, because even before he had Magatama people pretended that Amaterasu worked on every range and still do pretend such despite Itachi saying Magatama is his strongest ranged attack. So than and even now, I'd still have to argue against Amaterasu more than Magatama.


What ? No... People never argued Amaterasu would work on every range. People abused the fuck out of the specified range of Amaterasu in the databook, which is listed as "short." Hell even after war arc, where Itachi used it to snipe the Cerebrus, which is most definitely not short range, some people still don't think it works in any range other than CQC.

I also think Magatama is a more reliable long range attack, if range is the only concern. 


> As for my own opinion, it doesn't change much ether because most of the fliers can ether evade Magatama or block it. The only one it seems prudent against is Deidara, and after the ambush-squad fodderization, even before Magatama, Deidara never stood a credible chance in my mind ever again, even if he was a bad type match up for Itachi Pre-Magatama.


I am pretty sure everyone has a method of dealing with a rasengan, either block, tank or dodge it, but Naruto keeps finishing people with it.

Same goes man other techniques. So yeah, if Itachi uses Magatama right, it can accomplish alot. The technique itself is very penetrative and travels quite fast, and can be used like a rapid fire or a single shot, it has some form of a versatility as well.



> It's not downplay, it's just that the guy was already Top-Mid-Kage [or High-Kage, whatever terminology you want to use] before Magatama and Izanami, and gaining those things is more just another sign off that fact, rather than anything game changing. It would have been a game changer if Magatama had the same powers as the Totsuka-Sword or if Izanami wasn't such a bitch to actually execute in battle and didn't have such a loosely defined way to escape it. However that was not the case.


I still think those 2 jutsu are significant, but the major thing was Itachi's fighting style. His overal mobility, inlcuding mobility with Susano'O( I remember the times when people claimed Itachi couldn't be mobile with it) and his quick decision making. Being able to use Susano'o with short bursts etc. 




> He did gain a power up. It's called not having eyesight or health issues anymore, increased stamina regen rate, and Edo durability.


His illness was a major limiter, so removing it isn't actually a buff, it is more like allowing him return to normal. 
As for stamina regen rate and durability, Minato also had those things.

I am talking about their arsenal. Edo Itachi's arsenal is the same with living Itachi. Edo Minato's arsenal is massively superior to living Minato, and that is only because he is ressurected as an EDO. Otherwise he could never have BM.



> And again this is the problem and will always continue to be the problem. You have a very specific definition of what Healhy-Itachi was. No draw-backs, but all of the perks, I.E. Edo-Itachi. I don't think this was necessarily the case. I think Healthier-Itachi would still have major eye-sight issues that would greatly impede him. Or we'd have to go back to a point where Itachi didn't have complete mastery of MS, for his eyesight to be better, at which point he looses some of his combat might from not having the same skill with MS. I also think Healthy-Itachi may or may not have the same knowledge that Hebi-Sasuke-Fight-Itachi did, as he'd be loosing quite a few years of his life spent traveling the world with S-Rank Ninja.


I am not saying he'd have no drawbacks, but I also don't think the eyesight would impede him at all. Because he has shown no signs of disturbance in regards to his eyesight even when he was half blind.



> So, yeah maybe to you Edo-Itachi = Healthy-Itachi, but that is not how I see it, and no one can provide evidence one way or another to confirm their beliefs.


We can at least draw some logical conclusions.
Zetsu confirmed that there was a "healthy" Itachi @ one point, given he was dissapointed with that one's performance. He said he wasn't moving normally and he couldn't avoid attacks he normally could easily and he said it wasn't necessarily related to over use of MS.
Obito confirmed it by saying that Itachi was dying from a terminal illness.
So at t he very least, we can agree that healthy Itachi would have better physical condition, and he probably wouldn't have random seizures during mid fight.




> I don't think it's relevant to how he performs in single fights. However I do think it's relevant in the sense, that please don't tell me Healthy-Itachi can use MS and basic Jutsu the same amount he used it in the Nagato and Kabuto combined in a single fight, because to me that is most likely due to Edo-Regen.


I don't think that, but I do believe he should be able to use as much stuff he used against Nagato or Kabuto comfortably in seperate battles.



> All the parallels got stronger, because Kishi whored himself out to those parallels. In the end they mean nothing, and we all look stupid for thinking otherwise.



Yeah but I think allowing Sasuke to fight side by side with Itachi, bond with him and resolve some family issues, then doing the same for Naruto and Minato made it clear to me which parallel was the more important one. Jiraiya and Naruto never shared anything as intimate as that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> What i am talking about is that in threads, Itachi is supported only by His blind slaves ( fanboys ) and by some other that are only big fans (these are the less noisy ones). I have  never seen a neutral poster to support Itachi in a thread against strong enemies.
> And we know all know that Itachi is easily one of the Most overrated in the NV. Itachi has lots of fanboys and fangirls, actually he has the Most in the series. These guys never Bring serious arguments and usually end up trolling like they do not give a ...., but in reality they end up crying in their corner ( I am adressing to nobody in this forum , so do not Take it personal ).
> The other guys are far more realists and less hypocrites and usually Bring more solid arguments and happily i have seen these type of fans on this forum
> I agree with you about the war arc part, because Itachi gained some new interesting feats, but while Alive he is not. ,, tiers" over Jiraiya , he is in Exactly the same tier and they Both win against each other depending on the OP



Go home dupe, you'r drunk.


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## Duhul10 (May 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Go home dupe, you'r drunk.



Oh... So you are in that category.. i understand now.. I'll have mercy and i won't share your secret


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Oh... So you are in that category.. i understand now.. I'll have mercy and i won't share your secret



Thanks based dupe.


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## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well I wasn't here in 2006, so I wouldn't know. But I knew very well what the arguments back in 2008 were like. Hell, I remember how mad people got when Obito explained that Itachi was fatally ill and was holding back on top of that.


I lump all those years together.



> But it didn't mitigate blindness otherwise Izanami wouldn't cost Itachi an eye.
> You may be right that maybe the edo version restored Itachi's eyes to how they were @ the time he awakened MS,


Costing an eye and blindness seem to be different things. 



> but then I don't think it makes any difference because there was no visible hindrance of his declining eyesight during his fights.


Didn't make a difference for Edo-Itachi. However it would make a difference for Healthy Itachi, probably.



> hats actually what I am saying. Itachi's illness played a major part in his death.


Agreed, and I don't think anyone doubted that, unless were talking pre-illness reveal, and if that's the case I don't see how you can penalize anyone for something like that.



> I know what it stands for. I am just saying that Sasuke ended up @ the stage Itachi was during their fight, after using MS for like a day.


And your point is?



> Itachi implied that he had awakened Susano'o along with Amaterasu & Tsukiyomi @ "that day." And he had it on for 8 years. He used MS a couple of times in part 1, and he didn't keel over and cough blood.


I'm not talking about the blood coughing, that was illness i'm talking about his eyesight. From what we've been presented it seems like Itachi probably lost most of his eyesight the day he awakened the three techniques, as besides than, there was never another instance where he's indicated to have used MS a-lot, prior to the Hebi-Sasuke-Fight, where his eye-sight was already fucked. I mean in Part I he used Tskuyomi on Kakashi, than had time to rest inbetween, than used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and than said he needed to rest.



> I thought he couldn't evade the shuriken because Sasuke broke Tsukiyomi which ended up putting a strain on his eye. I don't his regular shitty eyesight was the problem, otherwise he wouldn't be able to pull all the stunts he pulled earlier or later.


He couldn't avoid the Shuriken because off the strain using Tsukuyomi put on his eye. Not Sasuke breaking it.



> There wasn't much physical engagement after that point, but he still evaded a point plank Katon with that eye and a gashing wound on his leg and avoided Sasuke coming @ him with a chidori in mid air. He also was able to trackdown Sasuke with Amaterasu.
> Even when he had literally no vision(both of his eyes were white) he fought off Yamata no Orochi and sealed Orochimaru.


None of this requires pin point accuracy Grim.



> I know, but most people wouldn't even accept the fact that Itachi minus the fatal illness, would perform better, as in not keel over and die.


I don't remember that. Unless your talking about how people believed Itachi less the illness would still loose a match if he absurd Susano'o to the point where he exhausted his stamina and eye-sight, and than was easily killed off by his opponent in that condition, I.E. the argument where someone outlasts Itachi.



> Not auto win, but it is a technique specifically created to counter Izanagi. Its no brainer that it'd make it easier against a person using Izanagi. Actually it should be pretty easy to do it against Obito,considering Obito is one of the biggest one trick poines there is(I'm talking about pre-war arc).  We all know that Itachi can't afford to fight long fights, like any other MS user. He needs to use his OHKO techniques and end it quick. Izanagi prevents that from happening, so however you look @ it, Izanami is an invaluable asset @ dealing with Izanagi, or in obito's case, evasive shinobi who are somewhat susceptible to Izanami


Izanami works by recording a moment of shared physical senses between the opponent and oneself and recreating that.

The time it takes to set up those 2 exact moments, Itachi still needs to use his upper end techniques to defend himself against Danzo. So it still presents the same problem as before, where he could be tired out before getting a chance to down Danzo. Against Obito just creating a moment of shared physical sensation with someone capable of phasing is extremely difficult. Though I will grant you that if you wish to argue he has absolutely no other way to defeat Obito, Izanami at least gives him a low odds chance of pulling something out, but if that's all Izanami does for Itachi, I.E. give him a Low-Odds chance of defeating 1 specific character, that's really not changing much for me as far as how I view Itachi's strength.



> Sure go ahead. But we know for a fact that Itachi is more powerful and smarter than Hebi Sasuke, so @ the very least, Deidara can't push him that far.


We'll see, I mean Strategoob seems to imply C4 Clone Feint can beat Itachi in another thread.



> I know your stance on Deidara, which is also another extreme case. You are on the other end of the spectrum.
> CIS aside, Deidara has a decent shot @ defeating low - mid Kage levels.


So basically if Deidara was not Deidara, and was instead was controlled by Grimmjow, who made strategic decision for him, he could beat some Mid-Kages? If so I agree, but that isn't Deidara. Deidara's CIS is his character flaw, and not accounting for it is a denial of cannon. 



> What ? No... People never argued Amaterasu would work on every range. People abused the fuck out of the specified range of Amaterasu in the databook, which is listed as "short." .


Ugh...literally in the Deidara thread I just posted people are arguing Amaterasu can hit Deidara at his flight range. 



> Hell even after war arc, where Itachi used it to snipe the Cerebrus, which is most definitely not short range, some people still don't think it works in any range other than CQC


Yup and I still do think it's a short-range Jutsu. However I think Kishi's perception of short and the way he draws scaling, changes all the time, so what we end up with is it being a more Short-Mid Range Jutsu, depending on how Kishi feels that day and what the plot demands.



> I am pretty sure everyone has a method of dealing with a rasengan, either block, tank or dodge it, but Naruto keeps finishing people with it.
> 
> Same goes man other techniques. So yeah, if Itachi uses Magatama right, it can accomplish alot. The technique itself is very penetrative and travels quite fast, and can be used like a rapid fire or a single shot, it has some form of a versatility as well.


The problem is there is not many ways to use Magatama at Long-Range. He throws it and ether it hits or it doesn't. At short-range yes, but Itachi has better techniques for Short range.



> I still think those 2 jutsu are significant, but the major thing was Itachi's fighting style. His overal mobility, inlcuding mobility with Susano'O( I remember the times when people claimed Itachi couldn't be mobile with it) and his quick decision making. Being able to use Susano'o with short bursts etc.


The only argument I remember is whether or not Itachi could use the partial Susano'o stuff, like just an arm or just a rib-cage, and that had more to do with comparing Sasuke and Itachi specifically. There I will agree you could maybe make the case that Itachi was underrestimated, but I believe it was more that the fact that Kishi hyped Sasuke's eyes to surpass Itachi's and people were thinking Kishi was going to actual justify that, but he never did. So I see it as more of a Sasuke overestimation and Kishi trolling, rather than Itachi underestimation.



> His illness was a major limiter, so removing it isn't actually a buff, it is more like allowing him return to normal.
> As for stamina regen rate and durability, Minato also had those things.


It's removing that limiter w/o loosing any knowledge or skills gained during the time he was sick. 



> I am talking about their arsenal. Edo Itachi's arsenal is the same with living Itachi. Edo Minato's arsenal is massively superior to living Minato, and that is only because he is ressurected as an EDO. Otherwise he could never have BM.


But I wasn't, I was talking about how they both recieved a power up post mortem, so to say hey I was right about the character's strength, when it's due to a power up is not fair.



> I am not saying he'd have no drawbacks, but I also don't think the eyesight would impede him at all. Because he has shown no signs of disturbance in regards to his eyesight even when he was half blind.


He got immediately hit by a basic Shuriken trap. And the dude never fought anyone who i'd consider upper-Mid-Kage to high-kage, he fought someone much weaker than him, Hebi-Sasuke.



> So at t he very least, we can agree that healthy Itachi would have better physical condition, and he probably wouldn't have random seizures during mid fight.


Sure and I've always agreed with that. My issue has and will always continue to be primarily eye-sight based.



> I don't think that, but I do believe he should be able to use as much stuff he used against Nagato or Kabuto comfortably in seperate battles.


I don't see anything wrong with that.



> Yeah but I think allowing Sasuke to fight side by side with Itachi, bond with him and resolve some family issues, then doing the same for Naruto and Minato made it clear to me which parallel was the more important one. Jiraiya and Naruto never shared anything as intimate as that.


Was there a parallel, sure. Could a case also be made for Kakashi and Killer-B, sure. Did Jiraiya also fight alongside Naruto against Kabuto and snakeman yes. It's pointless to go into this shit.


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## StickaStick (May 4, 2015)

Izanami wouldn't work on Obito based on its mechanics anyway, seeing as Obito is a "good guy" now and would simply "accept" his fate immediately. Not to mention I believe Itachi states that it is not typically a technique to be used in actual battle; combine that assertion with the fact that in Obito's case battle would be taking place against someone who can phase through objects and one then has some extremely unfavorable circumstances going against Izanami's casting actually connecting in the first place.

Edit: To answer the tread:

Underrated: Nagato

Overrated: No one significantly right now I would say. Every fandom has their moments.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

Overrated: Itachi

Underrated: Itachi/Sasori/Kakuzu


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## t0xeus (Mar 6, 2016)

*Overrated:* Kakuzu, Tobi (pre-rinnengan)
*
Underrated:* Suigetsu, Hebi Sasuke, Jugo, Kisame


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## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

*Overrated:* Itachi 

*Underrated:* Kakuzu & Sasori


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## Garcher (Mar 6, 2016)

everyone who says Itachi is overrated is just underrating him.


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

He's honestly underrated and overrated at that same time. If I'm being honest kakuzu is pretty underrated. I like to think its sasori but a lot of people actually place him quite high. Usually above or right below kisame.

But some people put him right at the bottom and that's when I say he's underrated


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

*Overrated:* Kakuzu. Oh, man. From the way people post, you would think that Kakuzu was Sannin-level or something. He got beaten by Wind Arc Naruto of all people. Do you see Orochimaru, Tsunade, or Jiraiya getting beaten by Wind Arc Naruto? 

*Underrated:* Konan and Karin. People underrate them both, although Karin _was_ a scrub during the time that she was a member of Akatsuki. It's silly to put someone who blew off Obito's arm and forced him to use Izanagi on the same level (or even the same _*tier*_) as Hidan. It's silly to put someone who--after healing a Hokage who was on her deathbed--destroyed a smaller version of Shinsu Senju that was whooping the Alliance's ass _below_ *Hidan*.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

konan for me is overrated if anyone doesn't think she is second weakest 

all the others can deal with her ability which does not grant her immunity to all physical attacks btw 

most likely only cutting/piercing jutsu as well as taijutsu (bar 6 gates and up)

konan best feat is tanking jiriaya katon honestly I don't see how that implies she can deal with what these guys got to offer nor the speed to do so. When oil is htting her 

also note the paper ability is chakra dependent, I see no reason why satetsu aimed at every piece of paper doesn't really screw her up considering she is going to spend chakra to make more while sasori can spam satetsu all day at no chakra expense 

konan is weaker than deidara, kakuzu, kisame, sasori , orochimaru etc

ps: I don't count team taka as akatsuki. like not at all


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> also note the paper ability is chakra dependent, I see no reason why satetsu aimed at every piece of paper doesn't really screw her up considering she is going to spend chakra to make more while sasori can spam satetsu all day at no chakra expense
> 
> konan is weaker than deidara, kakuzu, kisame, sasori , orochimaru etc
> 
> ps: I don't count team taka as akatsuki. like not at all




Konan split an ocean with her chakra before she became too tired to sustain Shikagami no Mai on her body. Sasori's Iron Sand still requires chakra, so he wouldn't be able to spam it any more than Konan could spam her paper. The amount of chakra Konan uses to move around and attack normally is _nothing_ compared to what she did with Kami no Shisha no Jutsu (Paper Ocean).

She's as strong as Kisame at best and as weak as Deidara at absolute worst IMO.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> *Overrated:* Kakuzu. Oh, man. From the way people post, you would think that Kakuzu was Sannin-level or something. He got beaten by Wind Arc Naruto of all people. Do you see Orochimaru, Tsunade, or Jiraiya getting beaten by Wind Arc Naruto?



Kakuzu didn't strictly lose to Wind Naruto though. He was ambushed by Kakashi (to take out his best defense,) and then lost another heart because of Hidan through Shikamaru's shenanigans. I can see Jiraiya being in bad-shape from the get-go with Kakashi ambushing him with a Raikiri through the chest.



Saru said:


> *Underrated:* Konan and Karin. People underrate them both, although Karin _was_ a scrub during the time that she was a member of Akatsuki. It's silly to put someone who blew off Obito's arm and forced him to use Izanagi on the same level (or even the same _*tier*_) as Hidan. It's silly to put someone who--after healing a Hokage who was on her deathbed--destroyed a smaller version of Shinsu Senju that was whooping the Alliance's ass _below_ *Hidan*.



True. There was a lot of prep on Konan's part though. Prep honestly fucks the BD's pereption of ninja, and they choose to take it or leave it when convenient to them. Jiriaya, Naruto, etc. are often given their prep. Hebi Sasuke, Konan, etc. aren't. That's just the way it goes. Konan's prep likely took a lot longer though.


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## Itachі (Mar 6, 2016)

I think Kakuzu is fairly powerful tbh, I don't see 3 Tomoe Kakashi putting him down with anything short of extreme diff.


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

Konan's prep is most likely equal to shikamaru's prep. It's not close to Kirin


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Konan's prep is most likely equal to shikamaru's prep. It's not close to Kirin



I hope what you're trying to say is that it takes Konan much more prep.


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kakuzu didn't strictly lose to Naruto though, he was ambushed by Kakashi *to take out his best defense*, and then lost another heart because of Hidan.




That's a good point. Kakuzu wasn't defeated strictly by Naruto, but he was certainly in no shape to fight after being injured (although his remaining Masks could probably still fight), and the more masks Kakuzu loses, the weaker he becomes. 

IIRC, it was never confirmed that Kakuzu was incapable of using Doton: Domu without the heart that Kakashi crushed, and I think there's more evidence to suggest that that heart was used for Suiton. Based on what was shown, it's not like Kakuzu can't use different elemental jutsu himself if one of his hearts are crushed; he just can't use a jutsu expelled from that particular mask, and even then, there is sure to be some type of overlap in terms of which chakra natures Kakuzu and his original heart owners could use. I also personally have a hard time believing that Kakuzu would be capable of tanking FRS with Domu in the first place, and I don't think that defense would have changed the outcome.




> True. There was a lot of prep on Konan's part though. Prep honestly fucks the BD's pereption of ninja, and they choose to drop it or leave it when convenient to them. Jiriaya, Naruto, etc. are often given their prep. Hebi Sasuke, Konan, etc. aren't. That's just the way it goes.




Konan's prep is of course a huge issue in determining her overall battle power, but the sheer scale of Konan's Paper Ocean feat and what Konan was able to accomplish suggests to me that she was one of the more powerful members of Akatsuki. The other thing that stood out to me about Konan's Paper Ocean feat was the fact that Konan had to physically move all of the paper she used with her own chakra. It's not like she prepared 600 billion paper bombs and then pressed a button. She had to will all of those paper tags to detonate and attach some of them to Obito quickly enough to prevent him from escaping to Boxland.

My perception of Konan as Kisame's equal may be somewhat abnormal, but I definitely don't think that Konan should be lumped into the same class of ninja as Hidan, so I always find it puzzling when people do. Hype and portrayal should count for something.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> Konan split an ocean with her chakra before she became too tired to sustain Shikagami no Mai on her body. Sasori's Iron Sand still requires chakra, so he wouldn't be able to spam it any more than Konan could spam her paper. The amount of chakra Konan uses to move around and attack normally is _nothing_ compared to what she did with Kami no Shisha no Jutsu (Paper Ocean).
> 
> She's as strong as Kisame at best and as weak as Deidara at absolute worst IMO.​



sasori iron sand doesnt require his chakra. it uses the puppets chakra. he was able to use something like iron sand world order by using a little bit of his own chakra. his chakra acts like a boost for satetsu. she however uses her chakra and hers alone 

the amount of chakra sasori uses bar iron sand world order is 0 

which is the point here.


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kakuzu didn't strictly lose to Wind Naruto though. He was ambushed by Kakashi (to take out his best defense,) and then lost another heart because of Hidan through Shikamaru's shenanigans. I can see Jiraiya being in bad-shape from the get-go with Kakashi ambushing him with a Raikiri through the chest.
> 
> 
> 
> True. There was a lot of prep on Konan's part though. Prep honestly fucks the BD's pereption of ninja, and they choose to take it or leave it when convenient to them. Jiriaya, Naruto, etc. are often given their prep. Hebi Sasuke, Konan, etc. aren't. That's just the way it goes. Konan's prep likely took a lot longer though.



konan prep is highly situational and is also prepping a jutsu 

no one gets offensive jutsu prep  

in the same way in a match with oro more often than not u would restrict ET. that takes no longer prep than kirin does

it however requires ingredients which one would assume if u are a user of said jutsu you have said ingredients at your disposal


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> That's a good point. Kakuzu wasn't defeated strictly by Naruto, but he was certainly in no shape to fight after being injured (although his remaining Masks could probably still fight), and the more masks Kakuzu loses, the weaker he becomes.
> 
> IIRC, it was never confirmed that Kakuzu was incapable of using Doton: Domu without the heart that Kakashi crushed, and I think there's more evidence to suggest that that heart was used for Suiton. Based on what was shown, it's not like Kakuzu can't use different elemental jutsu himself if one of his hearts are crushed; he just can't use a jutsu expelled from that particular mask, and even then, there is sure to be some type of overlap in terms of which chakra natures Kakuzu and his original heart owners could use. I also personally have a hard time believing that Kakuzu would be capable of tanking FRS with Domu in the first place, and I don't think that defense would have changed the outcome.
> 
> ...



 

kakuzu doesnt have a suiton mask. seriously read DB. naruto wiki, the manga any source you want

his domu heart was what got crushed. considering he never again attempted to use doton domu again and he even says while using the jutsu thats the heart that was active and thats what kakashi crushed by using raiton

where did this suiton mask theory stem from. i have never known


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> *sasori iron sand doesnt require his chakra. it uses the puppets chakra.* he was able to use something like iron sand world order by using a little bit of his own chakra. his chakra acts like a boost for satetsu. she however uses her chakra and hers alone
> 
> the amount of chakra sasori uses bar iron sand world order is 0
> 
> which is the point here.




When did Sasori say that? That chakra has to have originally come from somewhere, and it sure didn't come from a lifeless puppet. What you're suggesting sounds like something more akin to Edo Tensei.​


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I hope what you're trying to say is that it takes Konan much more prep.



Lmao of course that's what I mean. Kirin is light years faster prep than paper ocean

@Saru: It was stated that by leaving the human puppets chakra intact that he is able to use their techniques that were used when living. Most likely it was similar to ET with him finding a way for endless chakra seeing as the 3rd puppet never ran out of Satetsu or chakra


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> When did Sasori say that? That chakra has to have originally come from somewhere, and it sure didn't come from a lifeless puppet. What you're suggesting sounds like something more akin to Edo Tensei.​





human puppet. uses its own KKG and has chakra, do u need scans of seeing chakra clearly come out from sandaime puppet?

ok fine ill show u..notice the chakra in the scan

thanks for reading 

still requires chakra

human puppets have chakra. 

read this scan 

once again thanks for reading  

still requires chakra

so that puppet uses sandaime jutsu. not u are using sandaime jutsu through the puppet

still requires chakra

isnt it just a puppet. NO

chiyo response. no its a human puppet, made from the body of the original jutsu holder


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Lmao of course that's what I mean. Kirin is light years faster prep than paper ocean
> 
> @Saru: It was stated that by leaving the human puppets chakra intact that he is able to use their techniques that were used when living. Most likely it was similar to ET with him finding a way for endless chakra seeing as the 3rd puppet never ran out of Satetsu or chakra




Yeah, I see what you're saying.




Icegaze said:


> human puppet. uses its own KKG and has chakra, do u need scans of seeing chakra clearly come out from sandaime puppet?
> 
> ok fine ill show u..notice the chakra in the scan
> 
> ...




I suppose that makes sense. The only thing that strikes me as odd is the fact the puppet generates its own chakra from nothing. If Sasori killed Sandaime... Where is the puppet getting its chakra from? Sasori still has to use chakra to maneuver that puppet, at the very least.​


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

Yea that's what I think. I think his incredible stamina lies in the fact that it is so easy t use the puppet technique, probably next to nothing. Like I said in a previous post I never saw a puppet user ever low on chakra. So having the puppets chakra essentially just gives him limitless stamina, plus a body that does not feel pain or fatigue


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> Yeah, I see what you're saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chakra strings which costs nothing 

Chakra network wouldn't automatically have shut down even if he was killed . It also depends how he died

Perhaps he was poisoned and while he was out of commission he was made into a puppet, and the process killed him 

Or it's a manga and the author told us human puppets generate their own chakra 

Which is the case here . So sasori can fight with kazekage puppet for hours on end without even slightly using his own chakra


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Chakra strings which costs nothing
> 
> Chakra network wouldn't automatically have shut down even if he was killed . It also depends how he died
> 
> ...




It was never stated that the Kazekage Puppet had infinite chakra, though, and Sandaime Kazekage's chakra reserves are unknown. Konan, on the other hand, has pretty good chakra level feats relative to her paper techniques. The point still stands that Iron Sand requires chakra, so Sasori is just as limited in the amount of Iron Sand he can use as Konan is limited in the amount of paper she can wield if not more so.  The claim that Sasori can outlast Konan with Sandaime is unfounded. If there was no limit to Sandaime Kazekage Puppet's chakra, I don't know why Sasori would have commented on it at all when using Satetsu Kaihou.​


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

But he's had 3rd kazekage for 10 years and is known to use it often. So either the chakra reserve is restorable or its unlimited


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> It was never stated that the Kazekage Puppet had infinite chakra, though, and Sandaime Kazekage's chakra reserves are unknown. Konan, on the other hand, has pretty good chakra level feats relative to her paper techniques. The point still stands that Iron Sand requires chakra, so Sasori is just as limited in the amount of Iron Sand he can use as Konan is limited in the amount of paper she can wield if not more so.  The claim that Sasori can outlast Konan with Sandaime is unfounded. If there was no limit to Sandaime Kazekage Puppet's chakra, I don't know why Sasori would have commented on it at all when using Satetsu Kaihou.​



Agreed they aren't infinite

However he can exhaust it's chakra and still have all of his left to spare  Is what I mean I doubt konan chakra pool = sasori chakra + sandaime puppet chakra 

Sasori also has the benefit of no exhaustion as does his puppet so he really should be able to fight longer than she does . Can't compare using chakra strings to a paper transformation tech 

Hope U get my point


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> But he's had 3rd kazekage for 10 years and is known to use it often. So either the chakra reserve is restorable or its unlimited




I think it's more likely the former.




Icegaze said:


> Agreed they aren't infinite
> 
> However he can exhaust it's chakra and still have all of his left to spare  Is what I mean I doubt konan chakra pool = sasori chakra + sandaime puppet chakra
> 
> ...




Oh yeah, I get your point. The thing is, it should take less effort for Konan to disperse and evade than it takes for Sandaime to produce Jiton from chakra and attack with it in a large-AoE fashion. If Sasori fights like that, I see Konan outlasting Sandaime and still having enough energy to face Sasori's other puppets. His other puppets were never implied to be human puppets, and in my opinion, Performance of A Hundred Puppets is weaker than the Sandaime Kazekage Puppet overall.

I think that Sasori is generally stronger than Konan, but I also think that Konan has good chances against him. Even if Konan lost to Sasori, I don't think that Sasori would be able defeat her without high difficulty. She's one of the best counters to Sasori's style of combat (poison + physical attacks), so I think that would come into play in this match up.​


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

The question is how much longer would sandaime have lasted if sakura dies there with no antidote? I don't think the puppet was really all that close to running out of juice because sasori never even once mentioned that to be so


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> I think it's more likely the former.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough . I guess I get your point as well 

Since sandaime reserves is an unknown . Would be hard to tell if it can actually push konan far enough 

As to sandaime > 100 puppets I disagree firmly 

It's more useful against konan certainly . But overall hell no


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## Nikushimi (Mar 6, 2016)

Most underrated Akatsuki member is Itachi.

None of them are really overrated anymore; they are assessed pretty fairly, for the most part.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 6, 2016)

*By fans:*
Overrated - Itachi
Underrated - Konan

*By hype vs. portrayal:*
Overrated - Sasori
Underrated - Kisame


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

not sure why people think konan is underrated in a sense tbh

can she take on some of these guys for sure. but i dont even fancy her chances against the likes of kakuzu

which sort of says alot about her level 

what is she going to do. paper bomb him to death while he is firing multiple blasts at her. she isnt immune to physical damage


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachi takes the cake when people say he can take on the Sannin, have chances against the Five Kage, you know.


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## Six (Mar 6, 2016)

Itchy is both the most over and underrated Akatsuki member. His being overrated is warranted and justified though through canon. Despite that haters think anyone can beat him but when Kishi proves them wrong, they start shitting on Itachi and Kishi calling Itachi a Sue and Kishi bias.

One seemingly negative feat though is the end all. Best not waste your time with the haters.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 6, 2016)

Itachi easily. It doesn't matter what level of power he has access to the fans always make cringy assessments. Full powered itachi? Wanked. 3-tomoe itachi? Wanked. Itachi _just using taijutsu_? Still wanked. Itachi is the only character who can keep growing in power long after his death somehow according to his fanbase.

Deidara is underrated because he wasn't portrayed the best by kishi. By hype people got him losing to sasori who he can own by feats and even tsunade and kisame who can't mess with him due to feats/fighting style.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

^ Yet you still have people saying Mei beats Itachi.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 6, 2016)

Who said that? And that has to be what, one or two people?

The number of people who think Itachi can beat the Sannin _vastly_ exceeds that.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 6, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> ^ Yet you still have people saying Mei beats Itachi.



Must have been heavily skewed in her favor with restrictions. Probably some hidden mist>sharigan vision wank no doubt.

Still even when not counting the obvious jokes(PS etc) itachi gets alot of benefits from the dome when it comes to what he can do/who he beats.


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

Because he can beat the Sannin when healthy


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## Sadgoob (Mar 6, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The number of people who think Itachi can beat the Sannin _vastly_ exceeds that.



Eh, I think the people that believe Itachi can beat the Sannin at once give him a heavy knowledge advantage. And you have to admit, Tsunade, base Jiraiya, and Orochimaru are in bad shape if they lack knowledge and Itachi doesn't.

Alternatively, if its Edo Itachi with unlimited v4 Susano'o with special items, unlimited Amateraus shots, and can put opponents in a daze with a point of his finger... he's a pretty scary guy to fight too.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 6, 2016)

It's really not our fault that Kishimoto decided to give Itachi incredible feats such as clone-swapping that's even imperceptible to the Sharingan, Genjutsu, Speed that can blitz Nagato, clone-feinting a Perfect Sage, reflexes that even without his senses compares to a sensor, and an Ocular Prowess that enables him to easily analyze his opponent's intentions.

 Kishimoto just made Itachi significantly more powerful than he was when he was Sick and Sick Itachi had abilities that easily pressured any of the Sannin. It's no surprise people think Edo/ Healthy Itachi can defeat the Sannin all at once.


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## Saru (Mar 7, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> The question is how much longer would sandaime have lasted if sakura dies there with no antidote? I don't think the puppet was really all that close to running out of juice because sasori never even once mentioned that to be so




Oh yeah, I don't think the Sandaime Kazekage Puppet was anywhere near empty in terms of chakra when it was taken out by plot. I just think that Konan's chakra reserves using Shikigami no Mai are likely to be bigger (not just in comparison to Sandaime, but many Kage-level ninja) just based on her Paper Ocean feat.




Icegaze said:


> Fair enough . I guess I get your point as well
> 
> Since sandaime reserves is an unknown . Would be hard to tell if it can actually push konan far enough
> 
> ...




Sasori's Puppets were being evaded and destroyed by Start of Shippuden *Sakura*. Do you see Sakura evading Satetsu? Because when Sasori got serious with Satetesu, neither her nor Chiyo could do anything about it.

Satetsu would also logically give Sasori the ability to fly. I don't see how it's inferior to Sasori's Performance of A Hundred Puppets.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2016)

Sakura did evade Satetsu though as much as she did 100 puppets

Satetsu giving sasori the ability to fly is unsubstantiated 

Pretty sure he would have considered it an option considering Sakura was causally punching back his satetsu and he was jumping away from it


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## Itachі (Mar 7, 2016)

Imo Itachi could defeat the Sannin if the knowledge was lop sided. J-Man gets raped by Tsukuyomi, Tsunade is put down via Amaterasu and Orochimaru is taken care of with Totsuka. Itachi could have killed Jiraiya during their encounter in Part 1 with a simple Amaterasu. Knowledge is really important when it comes to Itachi, Itachi with full knowledge against the Sannin with no knowledge could defeat them. I don't consider it far fetched considering that Itachi is an extremely dangerous opponent to face without knowledge and he has multiple one-shot techniques to boot. Mangekyo techniques piling on top of Itachi's Jutsu execution speed and his standard 3 Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu means that the Sannin lose.


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2016)

@ itachi goes both ways 

Itachi with no knowledge of orochimaru could easily think he has killed him by stabbing him only to be blindsided

Same goes for tsunade 

But yes tired of the discussion . Kishi sort of already showed itachi > any individual sanin 

Oro strongest jutsu was shat on by itachi. Tsunade would receive the same treatment 

Same as Jiriaya


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## Itachі (Mar 7, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @ itachi goes both ways
> 
> Itachi with no knowledge of orochimaru could easily think he has killed him by stabbing him only to be blindsided
> 
> ...



I know, I'm just talking about a scenario in which Itachi could defeat the Sannin. Itachi hard counters Orochimaru & Tsunade, Jiraiya is the only one that gives him a good fight imo. 

I don't agree that Tsunade could successfully attack Itachi, he should be able to avoid her easily in my opinion. Orochimaru has a better chance though because he can extend his neck quickly as well as slither on the floor and use his snake hands.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Imo Itachi could defeat the Sannin if the knowledge was lop sided. J-Man gets raped by Tsukuyomi, Tsunade is put down via Amaterasu and Orochimaru is taken care of with Totsuka.


No he can't.

Say he hits Jiraiya w/ Tsukyomi, Tsunade heals it, like she healed Sasuke in the manga.

Say he hits Tsunade w/ Amaterasu, Jiraiya seals it w/ the Fire Sealing Scroll, as he did in the manga.

If he goes for Susano'o, your going to have all 3 Sannin there to defend it. 



> Itachi could have killed Jiraiya during their encounter in Part 1 with a simple Amaterasu. Knowledge is really important when it comes to Itachi, Itachi with full knowledge against the Sannin with no knowledge could defeat them.  I don't consider it far fetched considering that Itachi is an extremely dangerous opponent to face without knowledge and he has multiple one-shot techniques to boot. Mangekyo techniques piling on top of Itachi's Jutsu execution speed and his standard 3 Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu means that the Sannin lose.


Itachi can beat any Sannin 1v1 w/ knowledge in his favor, he cannot beat them 1v3 w/ just the advantage of knowledge. In-fact I just don't see a way he can beat them 1v3 period.


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## Six (Mar 7, 2016)

What makes you think that Jiraiya will just get back up as soon as Tsunade heals him? Weren't Karachi and Sasuke still in bed afterwards? What makes Jiraiya different from them?

Yes, I suppose that Itachi just stands there and lets jiraiya do away with his flames right? He won't fire multiple amaterasu at the tannin like he did against Sasuke right?


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2016)

Law Trafalgar said:


> What makes you think that Jiraiya will just get back up as soon as Tsunade heals him? Weren't Karachi and Sasuke still in bed afterwards? What makes Jiraiya different from them?


Sasuke got up a little while after Tsunade healed him and fought Naruto on the roof top.  But yeah I expect Jiraiya who willed himself back from the dead to be able to will himself to recover a-lot quicker than a PI-Rookie. I also expect Tsunade to be able to apply more intense healing to someone when she needs them to get right up and fight, than the minor usage of Shosen she used on comatose Sasuke.



> Yes, I suppose that Itachi just stands there and lets jiraiya do away with his flames right? He won't fire multiple amaterasu at the tannin like he did against Sasuke right?


Good thing there is yet another Sannin there to defend while Jiraiya uses the scroll.


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## baski (Mar 7, 2016)

overrated: Noone really. would've said Itachi but the over and under balance each other out.

underrated: Sasori


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