# Black Bolt vs DBZverse



## Dalek John (Jul 29, 2013)

He takes on all of them at the same time

Scenario 1: He only fights the canon characters
Scenario 2: The takes on all the canon characters + movie villains (Cooler, Brolly and Janemba)


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## MAPSK (Jul 29, 2013)

Black Bolt fucks them in the anus


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## Linkofone (Jul 29, 2013)

I feel disintegration would be in order.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 29, 2013)

Black Bolt yells....


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## xlab3000 (Jul 29, 2013)

Black Bolt


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## Banhammer (Jul 29, 2013)

Blackbolt is surprised to notice there was such thing as DBZ gunk stuck under his foot

terrible thread


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## Factman935 (Jul 29, 2013)

lol naruto forum users are retards


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## Lina Inverse (Jul 30, 2013)

Black Bolt sings the macarena backwards

they all die


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## Red Angel (Jul 30, 2013)

Black Bolt stomps everyone in the verse except for top tiers by screaming them to death


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## FireEel (Jul 30, 2013)

Interesting.

I had no idea Blackbolt was so highly-rated here. I assumed he was below the likes of Hulk or Classic Superman.


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## willyvereb (Jul 30, 2013)

Not really familar with Black Bolt either.
Can somebody list a couple of feats?
Especially in regards of his hax and the 3 stats.


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## Red Angel (Jul 30, 2013)

Well according to Marvel wiki his whispers can destroy mountain ranges, his screams can destroy entire planets (possibly hype) and he's taken hits from Thor and Hulk tier beings without significant damage. Granted that's just a wiki so, yeah


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 30, 2013)

I barely read Marvel and like the one time I've ever read something with Black Bolt in it he shouted at WWH.


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## Gone (Jul 30, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> I barely read Marvel and like the one time I've ever read something with Black Bolt in it he shouted at WWH.



Oh yea, Spiderman said something about him being the second most powerful being in the galaxy besides Sentry, or something like that.

Sounds credible...


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## willyvereb (Jul 30, 2013)

Skarbrand said:


> Well according to Marvel wiki his whispers can destroy mountain ranges, his screams can destroy entire planets (possibly hype) and he's taken hits from Thor and Hulk tier beings without significant damage. Granted that's just a wiki so, yeah


Well, I'm aware of Black Bolt being a planetbuster and overall not bad as a non-cosmic heavy hitter goes in Marvel.
The problem is that exactly how good he is?
Is Black Bolt comparable to the common flying bricks like Thor and the like?
Because simple planetbusting would be pretty far from enough to compete against DBZ high tiers.

Interestingly, the most impressive part of this wiki excerp is that apparently Black Bolt took hits from Thor and the Hulk. But then again, PIS can be a factor.
Speed is another important issue.
While I can see him having MFTL reactions, I somehow seriously doubt Black Bolt can reach interstellar distances.
So at best he destroys the Earth and then sits in the void of space for all eternity.
Granted if he can survive there. I'm not sure on that part, either.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 30, 2013)

Black Bolt lives on the moon or something so space should be fine.


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## Ulti (Jul 30, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> I barely read Marvel and like the one time I've ever read something with Black Bolt in it he shouted at WWH.



That actually wasn't Black Bolt, it was a skrull impersonating him.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 30, 2013)

Can create a hole in a small hole in reality, similar to Gotenks and Buu only within our universe as opposed to the ROSAT
one 

Reed and Tony use an amplification device to focus Black Bolt's power to a single region/point

Reed: "activate amplification device"

Next panel
Tony: I can't believe he holds in that much power

Last Panel

Tony: Is that what a hole in reality is supposed to look like?

So it is his own power hence Tony's comment on Black bolt holding that much power

Medusa explains Black Bolt can screw with an opponent's electrons


Medusa:  My husband has the power to cause every electron in your body to collide with every adjacent electron

Skrull Black Bolt vs WWH




Medusa:  You have face my lord before Hulk and you were defeated,Black Bolt's master blow can shatter your bones and his merest whisper will blow your broken body into the Sun.

He then sends WWH flying with a whisper, he gets back up in later pages and owns the Skrull Black Bolt even implied to have tanked Skrull Bolt's louder scream, nice feat for WWH.

Being able to send someone like Hulk to the Sun is impressive though as is being able to break Hulk's bones, had this not been WWH he'd have been down. Plus it was a Skrull Bolt, Skrull imitations vary in power compared to the original they're based on. 

Moves the whole Inhuman city at FTL speeds with his voice as power, safety dapeners were needed as well. He obliterates the remaining Skrull armada from Secret Invasion which were leaving, that's 2 FTL feats of his voice




These scan also confirms it's FTL and the destruction





Scan 1:
Skrull: Object is ten seventeen Super luminal

Skrull 2: If it's a false return, why is it gaining on us?

Scan 2
Skrull: What manner of thing overtakes a battle group moving at super luminal?

The rest shows the destruction even with their primary and secondary shield grids active but the destruction itself is'nt going to help here, just the speed of his voice.

Sentry acknowledges Black Bolt's power, one of many powerful beings like Hulk whose done so


T-bomb explosion
Tatsumaki pulls out an entire underground base, going at least 1.5 km deep
This might answer your question.

Weakened Black Bolt(post Vulcan fight) survives this, he's KO'd inside the rift caused by the tear in reality by this bomb but during Hickman's FF run wakes up after an unknown time passing inside and starts kicking ass like nothing happened.

Maximus:  It's blown a hole in space/time parasecs across

A parasec= 3.26 lightyears

Note: The Annihilation wave has weakened space/time as per Warlock and so would War of Kings arc so the feat may not be as impressive as it should but a 3.26 lightyear tear and multi planet explosion that wiped out 80% of the Shi'ar armada is impressive and BB survived that.

BlackBolt vs Gladiator, first encounter during the Quasar vs Gladiator fight

*Spoiler*: __ 








"Whispers the merest syllable in his ear"

"And the strongest of the Shi'ar goes reeling from the catastrophic disturbance of electrons near his ear drum"

Shows he's not above going for the ears and how a mere whisper can send Gladiator flying.

BlackBolt vs Gladiator second encounter, really short outside them trading blows and BB knocking back Glads with a punch

*Spoiler*: __ 








Sends Namor(land) flying with a punch


BB vs Thor



Short fight, Thor wins by hitting his anntanae with Mjolnir but Thor notes Black Bolt can keep increasing his stats by drawing upon energy from surroundings, that should be kept in mind as he can keep getting stronger and stronger.

So to sum this up
-Can break Hulks bones with his master blow
-Send Hulk flying into the Sun if he wanted with his voice
-Surviving the multi-planet T bomb while weakened and only being KO'd with no damage
-Matched Vulcan who owned Adam Warlock and is shown to be FTL himself
-Can power an entire city to FTL speeds
-Can obliterate FTL Skrull ships
-Trade blows with the likes of Hulk , Namor, Gladiator etc

Plus he's displayed some telepathy, matter manipulation and even energy manipulation. Vegetto level or higher is needed to resist transmutation so Black Bolt can turn most to stone.

The only FTL comes from the new movie involving Bills being on planet Vegeta, the Bills and Whiz feat to King Kai's planet can't count as it's located in another dimension.

Heard Whiz has a millions of times c feat, if it's the King Kai one, no way is that a quantifiable feat if it requires going from one dimension to another within the same universe. If it's another feat then fair enough then that would atleast make speed equal or so.

So yeah he should take anyone one on one but all of them?He'd take most out atleast.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 30, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> That actually wasn't Black Bolt, it was a skrull impersonating him.



right.

of course.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 30, 2013)

Ah Secret Invasion, where almost everyone was revealed to be a Skrull in disguise.

But to emphasis again, he's well above Dragonball characters except maybe Whiz or 100% Billz who are FTL, one of them being millions of times c based on some feat.

Strength/Offense wise: He can trade blows with the likes of Thor, Savage Hulk, Vulcan, Namor(land) and Gladiator. His voice even without full power has sent the likes of Hulk and Gladiator flying. He can even keep amping himself up.

Recall he cancelled out a Solar flare by Graviton that threatened to destroy Earth with his voice but been a while so I'm probably remembering how strong that flare was wrong. 

EDIT Kid Buu feat would still be leagues above the Solar flare feat though but that's not really an important feat for BB in this thread compared to the others.

Durability: Take hits from the above major characters and survive T-bomb explosion while weakened from fighting Vulcan while only KO'd and not needing any medical help as he kicked ass of a lovecraftian horror just fine immediately after waking up.

He's got energy manipulation, matter manipulation and some telepathy. He can't manipulate ki but he can use his own powers in different ways.    I recall he closed a singularity using it but been a while. He has created things from thin air , made the air around people too thick to breathe, turned people to stone and more.

Now before this thread turns to shit inevitably I'll take my leave, have enough of a headache today as it is.


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## willyvereb (Jul 30, 2013)

Ok, looks like he's doing fine in the firepower/durability department.
His reactions would also at least allow him to attack first.
The problem is with passing interstellar distances and against certain haxes in DB.


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## Ulti (Jul 30, 2013)

"I didn't come to hear a whisper, I CAME TO HEAR YOU SCREAM!"

 say what you want about WWH but that was actually quite cool.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Ok, looks like he's doing fine in the firepower/durability department.
> His reactions would also at least allow him to attack first.
> The problem is with passing interstellar distances and against certain haxes in DB.



Well he can dodge most of those H4X and he has H4X of his own like transmutation or screwing with people's electrons, transmutation is something that only Vegetto level or higher could resist and Vegetto was still a candy bar albeit sentient. Not denying something like Ginyu's body switch would work on him if it connects though. Hell Buu's candy beam should work on him too if it connects but it's not going to be easy. 

He may or may not have some cosmic awareness, that scene where he convos with Adult Franklin is vague so I won't push for him having it untill he shows it or it's stated,


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## Tom Servo (Jul 30, 2013)

I still have my doubts Wiss and especielly Bills has MFTL reactions after all Wiss did have to charge it like it was a technique


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## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2013)

And Whis' visible feat (in the trailer) had him flying past Jupiter which was like a little bit over 3 times FTL. As we have no idea where he passed the dimensional barrier to enter the mortal universe from other world that's pretty much the best we can say, especially since he has no actual combat feats other than one-shot KO'ing Bills with a karate chop. There are also reaction feats to take into account, as Black Bolt can react and change direction in his highest speeds, whereas we don't know enough about Whis' technique to say anything for his reactions. Probably best not to even debate him until we get more showings, or else it will just lead into a big pointless shitstorm.

Either way, this thread is pretty dumb TBH.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

Fucking hypocrite 

Par for the course though.

>Makes the page himself
>Starts using the "fallacy" himself when DB is involved.

No, no, please justify it for us in a flimsy fashion that no one really buys any longer.

And there really is no helping you tits if you want to conclude the flight feat is from some weird ass technique when its clearly just his aura as a fucking God (of which Goku's was of a reddish tint where as Bils was a purple one)


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm not questioning that its his aura, but the fact that he was clearly charging it up for a high speed technique. Its one thing if he was just charging his ki and then flew its another thing for him to charge his ki, have it shun under them like a spotlight, surround them in a neat sphere and then blast off into space.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

...

Because flashy visuals = technique 

This kind of mental tap dancing for what's generic flying is pretty damn awe inspiring.

Whis isn't even confirmed or likely to possess Teleportation, as no mention has actually been made of it in any sort of summary I've seen so far.

Not to mention shit like Bils bitching about Planet Vegeta being too far away if his attendant or himself could teleport would be stupid given the former would require no effort for him to go and off the planet as per his job, while the latter would require minimal effort on his part to teleport around space until he reached his destination.

Especially with shit like KaiKai.

All the implication is there for them crossing interstellar distances with flight, with Bils being less than inclined to do so given he's a lazy bastard.

And a super speed that requires charging in a verse that already makes it horrendously obsolete with shit like IT (not incredibly hard to pick up if a planet full of fuckers can do it) or KaiKai is a fucking stupid argument to make without it being suggested to be a technique plain and simple.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> I still have my doubts Wiss and especielly Bills has MFTL reactions after all Wiss did have to charge it like it was a technique



Pretty desperate ploy to try and downplay DBZ being FTL now. I'm with Chaos. This shit is just sad.


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## SkylineGTR (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> I still have my doubts Wiss and especielly Bills has MFTL reactions after all Wiss did have to charge it like it was a technique



Lmfao, still going on with it being a technique huh? Even though it clearly isn't as it's not hinted once and take it from someone that's seen the movie. You and EM just can't get past the fact that dragon ball is now MFTL, unfortunately for you guys there's nothing left to even debate against. He fucking flies across space to get across star systems in minutes, both Bills and Whis.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 31, 2013)

someone link the calc

what's the actual number


since some are saying it's low FTL, some thousands and I've seen millions/billions as well


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## Linkofone (Jul 31, 2013)

... 

...

Many people won't care even if DBZ is FTL.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 31, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> someone link the calc
> 
> what's the actual number
> 
> ...







Linkofone said:


> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> Many people won't care even if DBZ is FTL.



Most people don't care. Only a few do and they know who they are. It's like they have some sort of vendetta against DBZ being FTL. It also doesn't even help them much anyway.


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## Linkofone (Jul 31, 2013)

That's very true ...


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> ...
> 
> Because flashy visuals = technique
> 
> ...




charming as always Chaos... but I never said it was teleportation just that he was charging his ki up like it was a technique, there really isn't any solid evidence to me that he has MFTL reactions as well



SkylineGTR said:


> Lmfao, still going on with it being a technique huh? Even though it clearly isn't as it's not hinted once and take it from someone that's seen the movie. You and EM just can't get past the fact that dragon ball is now MFTL, unfortunately for you guys there's nothing left to even debate against. He fucking flies across space to get across star  in minutes, both Bills and Whis.



If I wanted pointless bitching as a substitute for an argument from some nobody like you i'll go to MVC


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## SsjAzn (Jul 31, 2013)

Black Bolt solos. Even with the enormous amount of planet to small star busters, DB verse combined won't give Black Bolt a good/decent fight.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> charming as always Chaos...



Wouldn't disparage you if you didn't spout stupid shit.

Pretty simple.



> but I never said it was teleportation



You didn't have to.

The point I'm making is that in a verse with far more expedient modes of transportation, a technique solely dedicated to increasing your flight speed without the user's mental input is fucking retarded as a stance.



> just that he was charging his ki up like it was a technique



And a visual effect isn't evidence of it being a technique you tit.



> there really isn't any solid evidence to me that he has MFTL reactions as well



What you believe isn't particularly of relevance.  Grin and bear it chuckles.  A flashy visual isn't the foundation of a stable argument.

Hey, I'll swallow crow if in the new shit like the chozenshuu they list this "technique" as something other than bukujutsu, but that's only if it specifies a lack of user's mental input to react and navigate around shit.


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wouldn't disparage you if you didn't spout stupid shit.
> 
> Pretty simple.
> 
> ...



Actually it kind of is if there is a distinct enough difference, how exactly is it not a technique? He was clearly doing more than just charging his ki and blasting off, like we see Bills and Goku do when they fight or fly.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> Actually it kind of is if there is a distinct enough difference



No, it really isn't.

A flashy visual from the most powerful character in the series is kind of par.



> how exactly is it not a technique?



It is, its called bukujutsu.

Its flight.



> He was clearly doing more than just charging his ki and blasting off, like we see Bills and Goku do when they fight or fly.



There really is nothing more to it than being flashy visual, possibly even just flexing his power.

And try not to dance around why he'd even need such a technique that requires no mental input from himself when other far more expedient means of travel exist in the verse.  Nothing you've put forth proves its an entirely new technique compared to Bukujutsu, nor does it refute the notion he needs mental reactions to keep up with his speed (hell, that's not a standard we'd hold others series to anyway).

Hell, the notion he uses this when shit like teleportation exists that he chooses not to use kind of leaves that more than dead in the water than it was before.

So much mental tap dancing for the series where others wouldn't get a second glance


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, it really isn't.
> 
> A flashy visual from the most powerful character in the series is kind of par.
> 
> ...




Wasn't it established in the film that Bills and Whis didn't know how to teleport? Hell they were impressed with Goku's IT

My point is it could be a technique used for long distance space travel (like a saiyan pod made out of ki) And considering we see Whis and Bills fly at their top speed differently is what leads me to believe this is a unique technique for long distance travel (similar to Kibito Kai and Goku"s IT only not for teleportation but for actual high-speed travel without the need of a spacecraft)


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> Wasn't it established in the film that Bills and Whis didn't know how to teleport? Hell they were impressed with Goku's IT



The existance of such a technique and it requiring no mental input when more efficient techniques exist is retarded.

Present actual evidence that its an entirely different technique that requires nothing more than an autopilot to function or concede.

Here's a hint, a flashy visual doesn't prove he doesn't control his movement 



> My point is it could be a technique used for long distance space travel



It's flight, he's flying.



> And considering we see Whis and Bills fly at their top speed differently is what leads me to believe this is a unique technique for long distance travel



Because time isn't slowed for our perceptions in cinematics AT ALL 

Might as well just claim they're not even hypersonic depending on the visual motion we tend to see.

Keep digging that grave though.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jul 31, 2013)

Of course, you actually have evidence to back this up apart from a ki aura, right?

Right?

Occam's razor is really the only thing you need to debunk the notion that it's a technique that they can only use to fly through space and somehow magically doesn't involve having reactions at that level.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jul 31, 2013)

I mean hell, even if it was some weird ki technique, the fact that it's made by ki indicates that it's being controlled by Whis, which means he'd have reactions to use it anyway, technique or no.

This is all incredibly silly.


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> The existance of such a technique and it requiring no mental input when more efficient techniques exist is retarded.
> 
> Present actual evidence that its an entirely different technique that requires nothing more than an autopilot to function or concede.
> 
> ...



1. Why would it? 
2. Which is how the technique works
3. No because is not only is the speed different but when they actually fly at top speed in no way does it at all resemble what Whis did


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## SkylineGTR (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> 1. Why would it?
> 2. Which is how the technique works
> 3. No because is not only is the speed different but when they actually fly at top speed in no way does it at all resemble what Whis did



Unless you can prove that Whis used a technique that let him fly ( which you won't because its bullshit ), he is automatically assumed to be MFTL. Now you can stop bitching and go back to MvC and explain your "thoughts" on how it's a technique although you have no proof what so ever.


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

SkylineGTR said:


> Unless you can prove that Whis used a technique that let him fly ( which you won't because its bullshit ), he is automatically assumed to be able to MFTL. Now you can stop bitching and go back to MvC and explain your "thoughts" on how it's a technique although you have proof what so ever.



 you're the one thats bitching I'm just giving my honest opinion which you're so obviously butthurt over

He made a shining platform of ki which then shrouded around him in a spherical ball, then fired him and whatever was in the platform off into space, Bills included


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## SkylineGTR (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> you're the one thats bitching I'm just giving my honest opinion which you're so obviously butthurt over
> 
> He made a shining platform of ki which then shrouded around him in a spherical ball, then fired him and whatever was in the platform off into space, Bills included



Oh wow, BIG SHINING KI! It must be a technique! You do realize characters fly all the time with their ki shown visible, not too mention Whis is the strongest character in the series so far so Toriyama probably wanted to give him more flashy animation for his flight. Not too mention when Bills and Whis fly off at the end of the movie and depart Earth, you don't see the same aura so leave it to the animation. Other then the visual effect, you don't have any proof.


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

SkylineGTR said:


> Oh wow, BIG SHINING KI! It must be a technique! You do realize characters fly all the time with their ki shown visible, not too mention Whis is the strongest character in the series so far so Toriyama probably wanted to give him more flashy  for his flight. Not too mention when Bills and Whis fly off at the end of the movie and depart Earth, you don't see the same aura so leave it to the animation. Other then the visual effect, you don't have any proof.



When characters including Bills and Whis fly normally with ki, its like any other character in the series, that's far different than creating a platform of ki that when standing on it shapes around you and anyone inside blasts off into space. Can you show a pic or a clip of this ending?

I also like how you bitch at me for making a legitimate assumption but then immediately make an assumption of your own that makes much less sense than mine


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## Unlucky13 (Jul 31, 2013)

How about we try waiting till the movie comes out with proper translations people? Than we can settle down for a nice cup of tea while debating this FTL feat/technique and what not.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> 1. Why would it?



Why wouldn't it?  What reason have we been given to believe the technique has autopilot?

What other series do we assume that if something looks flashier that it must have a fucking autopilot?

Your stance holds a double standard, and makes fuck all sense in terms of occam's razor (auto pilot... what fucking technique in any fucking series flies you around on autopilot when you have easily picked up teleportation transportation techniques to learn).



> 2. Which is how the technique works



Yes, it works by being flight.

Nothing suggests its autopilot you tit.



> 3. No because is not only is the speed different but when they actually fly at top speed in no way does it at all resemble what Whis did



It doesn't particularly need to resemble it either.

Shit, half they time you'll find panels without ki aura where they just had them up previously.

The only similarity required is the fact they're flying.  Unless noted otherwise, the overall appearance lacks any sort of relevance.


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why wouldn't it?  What reason have we been given to believe the technique has autopilot?
> 
> What other series do we assume that if something looks flashier that it must have a fucking autopilot?
> 
> ...



I never said it is autopilot i just don't think that his reactions are as fast as his technique used for long distance space travel

That would be like saying I'm as fast as my Ford Mustang because I travel around in it. I understand and follow the reasoning that reactions>travelling speed but when it comes to special cases like chargeable techniques is left up for debate

another example is a supersonic Mothra who charges up her power (cuz kaijus have ki I guess?) to fly at Mach 80


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> I never said it is autopilot i just don't think that his reactions are as fast as his technique used for long distance space travel



No, that's exactly what you're suggesting by disregarding the notion his reflexes match his flight speed at all.

Because autopilot is pretty much required to place them far below MFTL.



> That would be like saying I'm as fast as my Ford Mustang because I travel around in it. I understand and follow the reasoning that reactions>travelling speed but when it comes to special cases like chargeable techniques is left up for debate



Its not a special technique or a chargeable technique, its bukujutsu.

Instead, you're suggesting his reactions are inferior enough to his travel speed as to require an autopilot function to properly fly his ass around.

And note?  These reactions in comparison to movement speed examples?

Nothing you fuckers bring up is ever in excess of being more than several dozen times faster than a regular human's reaction time.

We can apply that kind of shit across the board and he's still a mentally faster than light fucker by a wide margin.



> another example is a supersonic Mothra who charges up her power (cuz kaijus have ki I guess?) to fly at Mach 80



...

Charging?  Don't you just mean accelerate?

Not to mention that'd be a case where its explicitly told to be due to a special technique, no such shit here chuckles.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 31, 2013)

>people wildly flailing
>because it goes against their preconceived notion of a fictional universe
>


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, that's exactly what you're suggesting by disregarding the notion his reflexes match his flight speed at all.
> 
> Because autopilot is pretty much required to place them far below MFTL.
> 
> ...



No I'm not saying its autopilot i'm just saying his reflexes aren't as fast as his technique is.

Mothra wasn't accelerating in speed she was in midair and her body started charging up power and she flew off at mach 80 (it was essentially what Whis did but in midair....and with a giant butterfly)


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> No I'm not saying its autopilot i'm just saying his reflexes aren't as fast as his technique is.



And yet for this to be so, he'd require an auto pilot to function at the level of disparity you're trying to argue chuckles.



> Mothra wasn't accelerating in speed she was in midair and her body started charging up power and she flew off at mach 80 (it was essentially what Whis did but in midair....and with a giant butterfly)



So... not even a statement that it can't react at those speeds, but burst movement?

Wow, wonderful example you have there chuckles.


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## SkylineGTR (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> No I'm not saying its autopilot i'm just saying his reflexes aren't as fast as his technique is.
> 
> Mothra wasn't accelerating in speed she was in midair and her body started charging up power and she flew off at mach 80 (it was essentially what Whis did but in midair....and with a giant butterfly)



1. Prove that it was a technique used for space travel and give evidence other then your bs theory about it looking flashy.

2. Prove his reactions are slower then his travel speed.


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## Tom Servo (Jul 31, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> And yet for this to be so, he'd require an auto pilot to function at the level of disparity you're trying to argue chuckles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let me re-word that I do think Whis and Bills are MFTL reactions but not  as fast as the technique

actually Mothra's reactions were proven to be lower when she was getting tagged by characters that are faster than her base speed but slower than her "Flash Dash"


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 31, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> Let me re-word that I do think Whis and Bills are MFTL reactions but not  as fast as the technique



That's really all I'm getting at here in particular.

And getting you to concede to more isn't particularly worth my time.



> actually Mothra's reactions were proven to be lower when she was getting tagged by characters that are faster than her base speed but slower than her "Flash Dash"



Actually, all that should really mean about the ones faster than her base speed is the fact that they likely possess similar short range speeds as well.  Well depends on how shit's portrayed I guess.  Never seen Godzilla shit and all.

Not to mention larger bastards like giants don't necessarily have to possess movements that relate to their baseline reactions anyway (envision a person scaled up to the size of a giant.  They move faster when swinging there arms, due to longer limbs, but their mental reactions are just the same as before)


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## Lina Inverse (Jul 31, 2013)

what the shit

why am I not surprised this turned into a FTL argument thread


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## Endless Mike (Aug 5, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Fucking hypocrite
> 
> Par for the course though.



Try actually reading the article you link before making yourself look like an idiot.



> Realistically, to fight at a certain speed requires no more than the following:
> 
> - The ability to move at that speed
> - The ability to perceive an opponent moving at that speed
> - The ability to react at that speed



You've got 1. You don't have the other 2.

Of course this part still applies:



> Say Character A has a movement speed and combat speed of 1,000, and Character B has a movement speed of 1,000,000 but a combat speed of only 100. There are still many winning strategies for Character B, for example, bumrushing Character A at maximum speed. If Character A can't get out of the way in time, then he's dead (assuming Character B has the power to hurt him). Even if Character A manages to dodge, Character B can simply continue on his path until he has reached a safe distance from Character A, then re-aim and try again. Eventually he's bound to land a hit.
> 
> Another strategy would be attempting to grab one of Character A's limbs, this might take a while but once it is done, Character B can use his superior speed to take Character A with him into a dangerous place (outer space, a star, etc.). If the speed is high enough, Character B might even be able to rip off Character A's limb. In addition, a character that has one of more of their limbs immobilized cannot escape or dodge effectively, thus negating the "combat speed" difference.



But of course that's only against characters slower than him.



> And there really is no helping you tits if you want to conclude the flight feat is from some weird ass technique when its clearly just his aura as a fucking God (of which Goku's was of a reddish tint where as Bils was a purple one)



It was a glowing white sphere that enveloped both himself and Bills and was several meters across, not a generic ki aura.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> ...All the implication is there for them crossing interstellar distances with flight, with Bils being less than inclined to do so given he's a lazy bastard.



I agree there's no evidence that Whis has teleportation, but claiming Bills can fly at the speeds Whis can is completely unfounded, especially since, you know, he needs Whis to fly him around.



> And a super speed that requires charging in a verse that already makes it horrendously obsolete with shit like IT (not incredibly hard to pick up if a planet full of fuckers can do it) or KaiKai is a fucking stupid argument to make without it being suggested to be a technique plain and simple.



By that argument there's no reason for Whis or Bills not to learn teleportation techniques, yet they obviously haven't for some reason or another.



SkylineGTR said:


> . You and EM just can't get past the fact that dragon ball is now MFTL, unfortunately for you guys there's nothing left to even debate against. He fucking flies across space to get across star systems in minutes, both Bills and Whis.



*BZZT* Wrong. Bills was just along for the ride. He even complained about how long it would take. And you have an odd definition of "MFTL" if you think 3-4 times FTL qualifies.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> The point I'm making is that in a verse with far more expedient modes of transportation, a technique solely dedicated to increasing your flight speed without the user's mental input is fucking retarded as a stance.



Then it would also be fucking retarded to just fly places for transport instead of teleporting. Hell, you could argue that it's retarded that Goku never taught IT to any of the other Z-senshi.

Now I'm not even saying it's definitely a technique, just that it looks unlike anything else seen in the series. My arguments don't even hinge on it being a technique.



> Hey, I'll swallow crow if in the new shit like the chozenshuu they list this "technique" as something other than bukujutsu, but that's only if it specifies a lack of user's mental input to react and navigate around shit.



At the speed he was going past Jupiter even a normal human could have reacted to something that size and avoided it. For smaller stuff like asteroids and space debris it wouldn't hurt them anyway. Not to mention they were going in a completely straight line. An example of actually reacting while traveling at FTL speed is something like this:



(Note the editorial I wrote which basically anticipated what you said to me earlier and explained why your claim was stupid).



godzillafan430 said:


> Actually it kind of is if there is a distinct enough difference, how exactly is it not a technique? He was clearly doing more than just charging his ki and blasting off, like we see Bills and Goku do when they fight or fly.



It could be a technique or couldn't be, doesn't exactly matter.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> A flashy visual from the most powerful character in the series is kind of par.



Although it looks completely different from any kind of normal flight we've seen, and the ability to carry someone else along with him is a difference (although that could be just the application of TK or a ki shield or something...)



> It is, its called bukujutsu.
> 
> Its flight.



Bukujutsu works by using ki to repel against a solid surface (usually the ground). Gohan explained this to Videl. In space there's nothing to repel against. Whis might have an advanced form or something that doesn't have drawbacks compared to normal bukujutsu, or it might be something else. I'm not committed on it honestly.



> There really is nothing more to it than being flashy visual, possibly even just flexing his power.



He's not exactly the kind of guy who likes to show off though.



> And try not to dance around why he'd even need such a technique that requires no mental input from himself when other far more expedient means of travel exist in the verse.  Nothing you've put forth proves its an entirely new technique compared to Bukujutsu, nor does it refute the notion he needs mental reactions to keep up with his speed (hell, that's not a standard we'd hold others series to anyway).



If you check the "combat speed fallacy" article you linked yourself, I wrote:



> There are many times when a character's "travel speed" feats apply equally for determining their "combat speed". Situations where characters are fighting while traveling have already been mentioned, but another scenario is where they are traveling through an area filled with obstacles. Obviously if they could not perceive and react at the speeds they travel at, they would be bumping into things all the time. Any character that runs around a planet or other large distance on the surface of a planet or moon should be given "combat speed" equivalent to their travel speed by default, due to having to see and dodge all of the obstacles in their way.



Note the qualifier of "filled with obstacles". If he was dodging through an asteroid field, or moving at the same speed through some other crowded area then sure. But from what was shown in the parts of the movie I've seen, not really.



> So much mental tap dancing for the series where others wouldn't get a second glance



Believe it or not, I apply the same standards to every fiction. You're currently bitching at me for complaining about the OP calc, are you going to claim I'm some kind of anti-OP crusader now? Despite the fact I've always supported it over the rest of the HST?



ChaosTheory123 said:


> The existance of such a technique and it requiring no mental input when more efficient techniques exist is retarded.



Again you could say the same thing about the Z-senshi flying to get to places when they could have learned IT from Goku.



> Because time isn't slowed for our perceptions in cinematics AT ALL



We do see them fighting underground with falling rocks and water that would move according to gravity. Of course I'm not going to claim that the speeds you could get by calcing that are their maximum speeds.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 5, 2013)

Part 2 (Continued):



ThanatoSeraph said:


> Occam's razor is really the only thing you need to debunk the notion that it's a technique that they can only use to fly through space and somehow magically doesn't involve having reactions at that level.



The reactions do have to be demonstrated, there's a reason I collect reaction feats as well as travel feats when I go through fictions. Why do you think I and others made such a big deal over the Silver Surfer/BRB feat, when both characters have many pure travel feats that are faster?

Seems many people are completely misunderstanding the combat speed fallacy. High travel speed often implies high reaction speed, but doesn't prove it. Like I said exceptions are when someone is fighting while traveling, or navigating around a lot of obstacles, etc. Those count for both travel and reaction.

When I wrote this part:



> Even if we were to accept that a character can't perceive or react anywhere near as fast as they can physically move (and this is rarely true of any characters in fiction)



I didn't mean that you should assume they have commensurate reactions as a rule, but that, in most cases, characters do have such reactions because they have demonstrated them.



ThanatoSeraph said:


> I mean hell, even if it was some weird ki technique, the fact that it's made by ki indicates that it's being controlled by Whis, which means he'd have reactions to use it anyway, technique or no.



That doesn't logically follow. If he's heading towards something big like a planet, sure he has time to stop and avoid it. But let's say someone suddenly teleported right in his path, a few meters in front of him, and he could not sense this person or have any idea they were coming. Could he stop himself in time to avoid hitting them?

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know.



godzillafan430 said:


> 1. Why would it?
> 2. Which is how the technique works
> 3. No because is not only is the speed different but when they actually fly at top speed in no way does it at all resemble what Whis did



To be fair it was never indicated that Whis was ever using his top speed on Earth.



SkylineGTR said:


> Unless you can prove that Whis used a technique that let him fly ( which you won't because its bullshit ), he is automatically assumed to be MFTL. Now you can stop bitching and go back to MvC and explain your "thoughts" on how it's a technique although you have no proof what so ever.



How is taking a second or so to pass Jupiter "MFTL"? Unless the "M" in this case stands for "marginally".



Unlucky13 said:


> How about we try waiting till the movie comes out with proper translations people? Than we can settle down for a nice cup of tea while debating this FTL feat/technique and what not.



Sounds good to me.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 5, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, that's exactly what you're suggesting by disregarding the notion his reflexes match his flight speed at all.
> 
> Because autopilot is pretty much required to place them far below MFTL.



No, actually. Let's say you're piloting a spaceship that moves at the speed of light. You have complete control over it and can steer it, etc. If it's heading towards the moon from 1 light-second away, even your human reactions will let you avoid it. But if it's 1 meter away?



SkylineGTR said:


> 2. Prove his reactions are slower then his travel speed.



Burden of proof is on your side, bucko. We don't automatically assume his reactions match without reaction feats (then again, we don't automatically assume they're slower either). More information is required.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Actually, all that should really mean about the ones faster than her base speed is the fact that they likely possess similar short range speeds as well.  Well depends on how shit's portrayed I guess.  Never seen Godzilla shit and all.



Shame on you. You have about 60 movies to watch. Get to it 



> Not to mention larger bastards like giants don't necessarily have to possess movements that relate to their baseline reactions anyway (envision a person scaled up to the size of a giant.  They move faster when swinging there arms, due to longer limbs, but their mental reactions are just the same as before)



That applies to normal sized beings that are enlarged to giant size, not beings that are naturally giant. Of course I'm not sure how relevant the whole Mothra thing is anyway.


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## teddy (Aug 5, 2013)

Shit


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 5, 2013)

I dunno, I just don't find this as amusing as I should after DDJ

it is still funny, don't get me wrong, just not quite as it should be


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## Nevan (Aug 5, 2013)

Endless Mike said:


> That doesn't logically follow. If he's heading towards something big like a planet, sure he has time to stop and avoid it.


He didn't crash into King Kai's planet which isn't something he would see from far away.


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## Nevermind (Aug 5, 2013)

And what do you know, EM bumps a thread on the second page that no one cares about to write big walls of DBPTSDTM texts that no one cares about even more.

Some things never change.

So glad I came home early.


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## Nevermind (Aug 5, 2013)

Also, this thread should've been locked pages ago. Reporting.

Ban DBZ vs Comic threads.


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## teddy (Aug 5, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I dunno, I just don't find this as amusing as I should after DDJ
> 
> it is still funny, don't get me wrong, just not quite as it should be



Guess that's to say he spoiled you a bit. like the fabled eating sweets before diner


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## KaiserWombat (Aug 5, 2013)

I was going to leave this alone because it had died down into obscurity: after all, who bothers to make a rebuttal five days after the last post of relevance? Maybe just me because I'm so lazy 

But christ, triple-posting is a no-no and this is just going to turn into a EM-Chaos/EM vs Dragon Ball bitchfest sooner rather than later, so yeah, Never made a good call alerting me to this.


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