# Hashirama & Madara vs. Jūbito



## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Location: Current Battlefield
Distance: 50m
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Bijuudama

-Use only what we've seen.

Curious to see exactly how strong the majority think these guys are.


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## Jagger (Oct 7, 2013)

It really comes down if Obito is able to use Kamui in his Juubi's transformation or not.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 7, 2013)

Jagger said:


> It really comes down if Obito is able to use Kamui in his Juubi's transformation or not.



Why wouldn't he be able to?


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Jagger said:


> It really comes down if Obito is able to use Kamui in his Juubi's transformation or not.




He isn't, that was stated. I don't see why it comes down to this though.


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## Psp123789 (Oct 7, 2013)

Jubito wins. PS gets torn apart by chakra arms or destroyed with black jinton. Any mokuton gets destroyed. Then obito blitzes them and tears them apart.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He isn't, that was stated. I don't see why it comes down to this though.



When was it mentioned that he can't use Kamui?


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)




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## ueharakk (Oct 7, 2013)

Since bijuudama is restricted, I think the fight will boil down to how Juubito defeats shinsuusenjuu.

Unless Hashirama can empower Madara with sage mode (plausible, but it hasn't happened yet) madara is going to be pretty helpless against him as all of his attacks are just OP ninjutsu while juubito can pretty much just walk right through all of it due to his black orbs.  PS slashes aren't doing jack to the orbs that blocked the juubidama's explosion and preta path isn't doing jack since it's a ninjutsu and gets canceled out by the black orbs.

Hashirama is going to be a pain, but juubito doesn't have to deal with both of them at the same time.  He can  trap one of them with chakra receivers in conjunction with his super speed so it becomes a gauntlet rather than a 2 vs 1 situation.  After Madara is dealt with Juubito is going to have to deal with shinsuusenjuu, and the only way I can see him dealing with such a massive technique made up of sage chakra without using the bijuudama is by using chakra arms.  From there it's the question: do you think 10 juubi chakra arms is enough to defeat Shinsuusenjuu?  Let me remind you that these are the same chakra arms that tore apart the hokage's barrier the barrier that tanked a "country buster".  At the same time though, we have things like BM Minato and BSM Naruto smacking the arms away and destroying them with a bijuu-sized senpou Chou oodama rasengan.  As for defending from shinsuu's attack, the black orbs were shown to survive a direct bijuudama hit from BSM Naruto, while it's true that shinsuusenjuu can output magnitudes more power than that, the fact that just a single fist is way larger than it's target has to be taken into account, and thus it won't be able to damage juubito at anywhere near the rate it did against kyuusanoo since it can only punch him one at a time.

But yeah, that's how i see it, that since juubito's only way to beat such a large scale tech is his juubi chakra arms it depends on their actual abilities.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 7, 2013)

Are Hashirama and Madara alive here, or are they edo tensei zombies?


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Are Hashirama and Madara alive here, or are they edo tensei zombies?



Considering Obito's abilities, it wouldn't make much a difference. We'll just say they're alive here, but Madara can use the abilities he's shown as an Edo.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Considering Obito's abilities, it wouldn't make much a difference. We'll just say they're alive here, but Madara can use the abilities he's shown as an Edo.



I asked because if they're edo zombies, Madara is allowed to use his meteor, which should be able to affect Obito... to some extent.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I asked because if they're edo zombies, Madara is allowed to use his meteor, which should be able to affect Obito... to some extent.




That isn't Senjutsu. Obito just covers up in his country-buster-tanking shield and comes out unscathed.


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## Ƶero (Oct 7, 2013)

Juubito stomps. Hashirama and Madara are some of the strongest but they are way too overrated here.


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## Lurko (Oct 7, 2013)

Jubbito wrecks them atleast untill mads shows that trump.


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## Jagger (Oct 7, 2013)

Wasn't that a bad translation?


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Wasn't that a bad translation?




The premise is the clear: he can't use Kamui. No translation is going to completely miss the mark on an important point.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> PS slashes aren't doing jack to the orbs that blocked the juubidama's explosion



The gigantic blade of Perfect Susano'o pretty much just disintegrates into two halves from making physical contact with Obito's Yin-Yang release attacks. 



> do you think 10 juubi chakra arms is enough to defeat Shinsuusenjuu?  Let me remind you that these are the same chakra arms that tore apart the hokage's barrier the barrier that tanked a "country buster"





Ergo, over a million times stronger than the absolutely enormous, full-power Tailed Beast Bomb Naruto and Eight-Tails used everything they had to make.





> At the same time though, we have things like *BM Minato* and BSM Naruto smacking the arms away and destroying them with a bijuu-sized senpou Chou oodama rasengan.



I'm pretty sure we can chalk up those 'feats' as being pretty massively outlier considering Tailed Beast Mode Naruto himself was being decked by Ten-Tails' first form like a grown-ass man hurling around a child - let alone chakra arms that are much stronger than the second-form Ten-Tails' ridiculously large blast, which is turn, obviously much more powerful than the continent-buster previously mentioned.

There's no way in hell Minato nor Naruto actually overpowered those limbs. It would be terribly inconsistent.


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## Jagger (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He isn't, that was stated. I don't see why it comes down to this though.


For some weird reason, I forgot about Juubito's ability to erase ninjutsu and nullfill a zombie's regeneration.  

I don't really see how Madara and Hashirama are capable of winning this, though. Even if Black Jinton does have a time limit, we don't know by now much.  

The only attacks that might hurt Juubito are the slashes of Madara's Perfect Susano'O since they're not composed of chakra, but wind, flying debris and the pressure made by it. Even then, Black Jinton took Tobirama's barrage of explosions with ease, though both attacks don't compare.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 7, 2013)

juubito cleans up madara then domesticates hashirama


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2013)

with TBB he fodderize them as he did in the manga in no time.

without it, he's still going to fodderize them, but it will be harder.

Can Obito use the Tree as in the manga?


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## The World (Oct 7, 2013)

Madara gets murked

Hashirama is capable of Senjutsu.........I think 

He still loses without a backup Senjutsu user


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## ueharakk (Oct 7, 2013)

Jagger said:


> For some weird reason, I forgot about Juubito's ability to erase ninjutsu and nullfill a zombie's regeneration.
> 
> I don't really see how Madara and Hashirama are capable of winning this, though. Even if Black Jinton does have a time limit, we don't know by now much.
> 
> The only attacks that might hurt Juubito are the slashes of Madara's Perfect Susano'O since they're not composed of chakra, but wind, flying debris and the pressure made by it. Even then, Black Jinton took Tobirama's barrage of explosions with ease, though both attacks don't compare.



black jinton doesn't just cancel out chakra, it disintegrates anything that isn't senjutsu.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Oh yeah, no God Tree.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

juubito gets slaughtered. onmyoudon has no feats of tanking shinsuusenju level punches. if a bijudama and a susano arrow that dont have feats anywhere near that of chojo kebetsu broke through, shinsuusenju would demolish juubito.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> juubito gets slaughtered. onmyoudon has no feats of tanking shinsuusenju level punches. if a bijudama and a susano arrow that dont have feats anywhere near that of chojo kebetsu broke through, shinsuusenju would demolish juubito.



Top Transformed Buddha >>> Kurama's regular-sized Tailed Beast Bomb, as far as we know.

Meanwhile, a Yin-Yang Release defense orb >>>> a Yin-Yang Release explosion >>> Obito's natural durability > his chakra arms (his body should be capable of withstanding the force the arms needed to rip apart the barrier) >>>> Second-form Ten-Tails' strongest attack >>> Second-form Ten Tails' regular-sized Tailed Beast Bomb >>>>>>>> Naruto/Eight-Tails' strongest attack >>>>> Kurama's regular-sized Tailed Beast Bomb.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> juubito gets slaughtered. onmyoudon has no feats of tanking shinsuusenju level punches. if a bijudama and a susano arrow that dont have feats anywhere near that of chojo kebetsu broke through, shinsuusenju would demolish juubito.




Obito can just casually rip apart Hashirama's statue. He's powerful enough to rip down the Hokage Barrier, which is more durable than any Mokuton Hashirama possesses. He's also strong enough to completely overpower those Sage Gates.

He could also just fly up to the top of the Shin Sūsenju and overwhelm Hashirama with the same speed that blitzed, EMS Sasuke, Tobirama & KCM Naruto.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> ]Top Transformed Buddha >>> Kurama's regular-sized Tailed Beast Bomb, as far as we know.
> 
> Meanwhile, a Yin-Yang Release defense orb >>>> a Yin-Yang Release explosion >>> Obito's natural durability > his chakra arms (his body should be capable of withstanding the force the arms needed to rip apart the barrier) >>>> Second-form Ten-Tails' strongest attack >>> Second-form Ten Tails' regular-sized Tailed Beast Bomb >>>>>>>> Naruto/Eight-Tails' strongest attack >>>>> Kurama's regular-sized Tailed Beast Bomb.


the only reason the orbs tank anything you mentioned is because none of them are senjutsu.


Rocky said:


> Obito can just casually rip apart Hashirama's statue. He's powerful enough to rip down the Hokage Barrier, which is more durable than any Mokuton Hashirama possesses. He's also strong enough to completely overpower those Sage Gates.
> 
> He could also just fly up to the top of the Shin Sūsenju and overwhelm Hashirama with the same speed that blitzed, EMS Sasuke, Tobirama & KCM Naruto.


 really now? by this logic, onoki can just fly up to hashirama and destroy him with jinton. your tactic only works if hashirama just stands there and does nothing. obito cant dodge any of hashirama attacks, not when he cant even dodge a bijudama or a susano arrow.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> really now? by this logic, onoki can just fly up to hashirama and destroy him with jinton.




Onoki is _no where near_ as fast or strong as Jubito, so no he cannot. 

You also failed to address how the Shin Sūsenju doesn't get casually overpowered by the Chakra arms.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Onoki is _no where near_ as fast or strong as Jubito, so no he cannot.
> 
> You also failed to address how the Shin Sūsenju doesn't get casually overpowered by the Chakra arms.


you're asking how shinsuusenju overpowers the chakra arms that were overpowered by 50% kyuubi and destroyed by rasengan? not sure if serious.


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## Trojan (Oct 7, 2013)

Does that really need a debate? 
Hashi already admitted that mindless obito in his last form is stronger than him.
this obito has the Tree in its last form, and he has control over it, and he also has his mind.

As obito stated, before the Hokages are fodders compare to him, and Hashirama is no exception
he's fodder compare to obito, even he now that.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you're asking how shinsuusenju overpowers the chakra arms that were overpowered by 50% kyuubi and destroyed by rasengan? not sure if serious.




They were momentarily blocked. Their high-end feats include ripping apart a barrier much sturdier than the Shin Sūsenju.


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## The World (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the only reason the orbs tank anything you mentioned is because none of them are senjutsu.
> 
> really now? by this logic, onoki can just fly up to hashirama and destroy him with jinton. your tactic only works if hashirama just stands there and does nothing. obito cant dodge any of hashirama attacks, not when he cant even dodge a bijudama or a susano arrow.



Jubito has the fastest reactions out of any character in the series



He could dodge any attack by any 1 person.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

The World said:


> Jubito has the fastest reactions out of any character in the series
> 
> 
> 
> He could dodge any attack by any 1 person.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Choosing not to dodge because you're too durable to friken care =/= not being able to dodge.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> They were momentarily blocked. Their high-end feats include ripping apart a barrier much sturdier than the Shin Sūsenju.



they were smacked away by yin kuramas tail and the yang kyuubi was even holding a chakra arm down with a single hand.

we already saw the limits of the chakra arms. their durability and strength are below a rasengan and the rasengan that destroyed them have inferior destructive feats to shinsuusenju.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Choosing not to dodge because you're too durable to friken care =/= not being able to dodge.



its merely your assumption that obito choose not to dodge because he didnt care. its an assumption that you cannot validate with actual panel.


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## Dr. White (Oct 7, 2013)

Add Bm naruto and we got ourselves a slight match. Add him and Minato and they have a chance.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> we already saw the limits of the chakra arms. their durability and strength are below a rasengan and the rasengan that destroyed them have inferior destructive feats to shinsuusenju.




Rasengan cannot be torn apart unlike Hashirama's wooden statue. It would just blow up in Obito's face. I don't get what you're comparing.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Rasengan cannot be torn apart unlike Hashirama's wooden statue. It would just blow up in Obito's face. I don't get what you're comparing.



whether you think that hashiramas statue can be torn apart or not doesnt matter. obitos chakra arms were destroyed by something that is inferior on the powerscale to shinsuusenju.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> whether you think that hashiramas statue can be torn apart or not doesnt matter.




It's fact that Hashirama's Statue can be torn apart, not my opinion. Hashirama's statue is not a bomb like Rasengan. It's wood.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's fact that Hashirama's Statue can be torn apart, not my opinion. Hashirama's statue is not a bomb like Rasengan. It's wood.



well since half my argument was ignored, that would be a concession on your part. as you know, an ignored argument is a conceded one.


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## Jagger (Oct 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> black jinton doesn't just cancel out chakra, it disintegrates anything that isn't senjutsu.


Different method, same purpose at the end. Anything that is not Senjutsu wouldn't harm, so that's where I'm trying to get. 

Sadly for Hashirama, most of his attacks are made to catch and suppress the enemy (unless you count Shinsuusenju and Mokujin) and that's something Juubito is capable of gettind rid. As we saw with the falling gates over Juubito, he casually shruged them like nothing. Even if he's caught, he can destroy it with ease.

Only Perfect Susano'O is capable of putting up a fight. All the ther lower skins and armors of Susano'O get eradicated.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> well since half my argument was ignored, that would be a concession on your part. as you know, an ignored argument is a conceded one.




That isn't an argument. "Obito's arms were destroyed by something weaker than Shin Sūsenju" is fact. I saw it happen in the Manga, so I'm obviously not going to refute it.

However, Obito doesn't have to stand there and tank Chōjō Kebutsu with his Chakra arms.  He can tear down the statue the moment it appears, just as he tore down the barrier.

If you ask why he didn't do this to Minato's Rasengan, that would be because Rasengan cannot be torn apart, as it would explode. Jubito was also tagged with a Hiraishin mark, so Minato's Rasengan reached Obito much quicker than Hashirama can get to Obito.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 7, 2013)

Obito takes them out. A team of naruto, sasuke, minato, tobirama, and hiruzen can't take down obito but madara and hashirama can? I do not really believe it.

Hashirama's wood buddha is strong against obito's black element but the ten tails chakra arms still turn into wood crumbs with it's feat of smashing a juubidama tanking barrier. Hashirama's only hope at winning is not enough by feats or a logical standpoint.

Madara is fodder here basically. PS gets erased with ying-yang chakra orbs and madara is quickly killed after with that same element. Meteor(if it gets the chance to come out) gets blocked by obito's full body yin-yang shield getting madara no where.

That yin-yang element is a ultimate form of defense and attack. Probably would need FTG or sage bijuudamas to even slightly pressure obito. Keep in mind his barrier that make four hokages look like trash and they cannot even two time him. The shinju tree summon is not needed here.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That isn't an argument. "Obito's arms were destroyed by something weaker than Shin Sūsenju" is fact. I saw it happen in the Manga, so I'm obviously not going to refute it.
> 
> However, Obito doesn't have to stand there and tank Chōjō Kebutsu with his Chakra arms.  He can tear down the statue the moment it appears, just as he tore down the barrier.
> 
> If you ask why he didn't do this to Minato's Rasengan, that would be because Rasengan cannot be torn apart, as it would explode. Jubito was also tagged with a Hiraishin mark, so Minato's Rasengan reached Obito much quicker than Hashirama can get to Obito.



if obito attempts to use such a tactic, then shinsuusenju trucks juubito with its mountain sized hands. 

im not sure why you think that ten chakra hands is an adequate counter for 1000 fists that you are weak against.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> if obito attempts to use such a tactic, then shinsuusenju trucks juubito with its mountain sized hands.




And when has Shin Sūsenju demonstrated the speed to intercept the fastest being currently existing in the Manga? 



> im not sure why you think that ten chakra hands is an adequate counter for 1000 fists that you are weak against.




Obito doesn't have to sit there and trade blows with it. He can rip it to shreds before it even stands up. Or, he can stop it from even coming out by grabbing Hashirama by the face and shoving a Yin-Yang spear of Chakra through it.


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## The World (Oct 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


>



Are you really gonna bring up a panel when Jubito didn't even have full control of his power and had literally just become the Jinchuuriki seconds before? REALLY? 

And the second panel doesn't disprove Jubito's ability to dodge. At all.


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## Ersa (Oct 8, 2013)

Juubito shoots a couple of continent sinking Bijuudama, wraps himself in his shield then rips the the regenerating Edos to bits with black Jinton.

Juubito, no difficulty whatsoever.

The gap between god tiers and top tiers is similar if not greater than the gap between top tiers and high tiers. This is like Hashirama vs Sasuke and Tobirama.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 8, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Juubito shoots a couple of continent sinking Bijuudama, wraps himself in his shield then rips the the regenerating Edos to bits with black Jinton.
> 
> Juubito, no difficulty whatsoever.
> 
> The gap between god tiers and top tiers is similar if not greater than the gap between top tiers and high tiers. This is like Hashirama vs Sasuke and Tobirama.



Dem bijuudamas are banned but your post is still spot on and i agree with basically everything you said.


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## Trojan (Oct 8, 2013)

it's silly to think having SM means an automatic win! 
the last chapter should have proved that to Hashi's wankers.

and more than that the guy already admitted that he's weaker, what do you want more than that?


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## Ersa (Oct 8, 2013)

My bad, even without Bijuudama Obito wins, albeit with more difficulty.

His speed (without PIS/Naruto's fans pet argument) was enough to blitz both Tobirama and a Hashirama clone in his weaker mindless state. He can easily react and casually tag a roof tier speedster in KCM Minato; he proceeds to rip both Perfect Susanoo and Buddha apart with his arms which destroyed the Hokage's barrier which tanked a Juubi's TBB.

Hashirama admitted he was weaker, Madara is equal or slightly stronger than him. It won't make much difference here. That admission was to a weaker Juubito.


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## P3IN (Oct 8, 2013)

Via powerscaling, JUUBITO is multi continental level both DC and durability wise, with Mach 31,000 reactions 

He can be nullified if hashi used sage mode, whereas senjutsu is effective.


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## Sans (Oct 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He isn't, that was stated. I don't see why it comes down to this though.



Naruto's Rasengan is somehow causing Juubito to be unable to utilise Kamui.

Without that and Madara's jutsu having no senjutsu defence against Onmyouton, the duo gets stopped quite hard I think.


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## The World (Oct 8, 2013)

That's incorrect.

Juubi is interfering with Tobi being able to utilize Kamui


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## Luftwaffles (Oct 8, 2013)

The Troll Police has arrived, stop or face the consequences.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And when has Shin Sūsenju demonstrated the speed to intercept the fastest being currently existing in the Manga?


its slower than sasukes susano now?

obviously it hits obito just by being big. its the same way that nobody is getting out the range of bijudama once it goes off.





> Obito doesn't have to sit there and trade blows with it. He can rip it to shreds before it even stands up. Or, he can stop it from even coming out by grabbing Hashirama by the face and shoving a Yin-Yang spear of Chakra through it.


 complete nonsense.

hashirama formed a seal and slammed a gate on him before he could even react. if you want to make a case for obito winning, you are going to need to bring something forth that isnt trivial like obitos "speed".



The World said:


> Are you really gonna bring up a panel when Jubito didn't even have full control of his power and had literally just become the Jinchuuriki seconds before? REALLY?


yes. so what?


> And the second panel doesn't disprove Jubito's ability to dodge. At all.


he couldnt dodge, so he opted to go through the jutsu with his black jinton.


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## Vice (Oct 8, 2013)

Quite a powerful, scary duo that Juubito still stomps.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 8, 2013)

Hashirama: I hate to put it so bluntly... that guy is stronger than I am.

Hashirama and Madara get nerfed. Hashirama, despite using Senjutsu couldn't do didly squat to Obito in his first form. His Senjutsu attacks are ineffective on Obito as shown in the manga. 

And Shinobi no Kami, if BM Minato + BSM Naruto's Senjutsu giant Odama Rasengan could overpower the arms, while being able to force him to use the Yin-Yang weapons to their maximum defensive extent, it means its stronger than Hashirama's jutsus.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama: I hate to put it so bluntly... that guy is stronger than I am.


im pretty sure that this is before juubitos weakness is revealed. this is also before its flat out stated that hashiramas sennin power can stop obito in under 15 minutes.


> Hashirama and Madara get nerfed. Hashirama, despite using Senjutsu couldn't do didly squat to Obito in his first form. His Senjutsu attacks are ineffective on Obito as shown in the manga.


myoujinmon is a restraint, not an attack. concession accepted for dishonesty.


> And Shinobi no Kami, if BM Minato + BSM Naruto's Senjutsu giant Odama Rasengan could overpower the arms, while being able to force him to use the Yin-Yang weapons to their maximum defensive extent, it means its stronger than Hashirama's jutsus.


chojo kebetsu has superior destructive feats to the rasengan so it utterly demolishes onmyoudon but since you think that minatos rasengan is stronger than 4 juubidamas, you saying this isnt really surprising.


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## Trojan (Oct 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> chojo kebetsu has superior destructive feats to the rasengan so it utterly demolishes onmyoudon but since you think that *minatos rasengan is stronger than 4 juubidama, you saying this isnt really surprising.*


oh the Irony is killing me. 
and you are the same guy who thinks Hashi survived 4 TBBs hit.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 8, 2013)

Can I assume that Madara has access to Kurama?

Even without Kurama, I can see Madara and Hashirama using certain combinations to get by. Such as Madara coating Mokujin with Perfect Susanoo, whilst Hashirama lets his Senjutsu chakra enhance Susanoo's armour.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im pretty sure that this is before juubitos weakness is revealed. this is also before its flat out stated that hashiramas sennin power can stop obito in under 15 minutes.


Hashirama flat out calls Obito stronger than him even with Senjutsu weakness. His Senjutsu was already rendered ineffective by Obito. And no, it was Tobirama and Naruto which discovered Obito's Chakra Weapons were weak to Senjutsu, and Madara already guessed that. Hashirama's Sage Mode would do something, but it wouldn't win.

Me: Manga says Obito is stronger:
You: NUH UH!


> myoujinmon is a restraint, not an attack. concession accepted for dishonesty.


Myojinmon was used _offensively_ in an attempt by Hashirama to not only restrain Obito, but damage him or even kill him. It was ineffective. Manga in my favor.


> chojo kebetsu has superior destructive feats to the rasengan so it utterly demolishes onmyoudon but since you think that minatos rasengan is stronger than 4 juubidamas, you saying this isnt really surprising.


Choju Kebetsu is superior to the standard Rasengan. But to the massive Odama Rasengan that Naruto powered up? It had a comparable explosion (filling up a large amount of the 100+ kilometer crater) and everything. Hell, you even cut out the reason why I said the giant Rasengan Minato and Naruto used was superior to the four Jyubi Bijudama's to attack my argument: it inflicts INTERNAL damage, can GRIND through the target, and can actually be used in a clash like this unlike the Jyubi's Bijudama's. Shinobi no Kami, your wank for Hashirama has gotten sickening since you can't, and will never accept Hashirama and Madara are surpassed or on the same level as current Naruto, Sasuke, or Minato.

Manga flat out states Obito is stronger than Hashirama. Manga flat out has Hashirama admit Obito is stronger than Hashirama. You have NO leg to stand on.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama flat out calls Obito stronger than him even with Senjutsu weakness. His Senjutsu was already rendered ineffective by Obito. And no, it was Tobirama and Naruto which discovered Obito's Chakra Weapons were weak to Senjutsu, and Madara already guessed that. Hashirama's Sage Mode would do something, but it wouldn't win.
> 
> Me: Manga says Obito is stronger:
> You: NUH UH!


the manga flat out states that hashiramas sage power can stop obito. you have no proof that hashirama knew about juubitos weakness to senjutsu.


> Myojinmon was used _offensively_ in an attempt by Hashirama to not only restrain Obito,* but damage him or even kill him.* It was ineffective. Manga in my favor.


you cant validate the bold.


> Choju Kebetsu is superior to the standard Rasengan. But to the massive Odama Rasengan that Naruto powered up? It had a comparable explosion (filling up a large amount of the 100+ kilometer crater) and everything. Hell, you even cut out the reason why I said the giant Rasengan Minato and Naruto used was superior to the four Jyubi Bijudama's to attack my argument: it inflicts INTERNAL damage, can GRIND through the target, and can actually be used in a clash like this unlike the Jyubi's Bijudama's. Shinobi no Kami, your wank for Hashirama has gotten sickening since you can't, and will never accept Hashirama and Madara are surpassed or on the same level as current Naruto, Sasuke, or Minato.


the rasengan filled up nothing. this is just you lying and expecting people to fall for your nonsense.


> Manga flat out states Obito is stronger than Hashirama. Manga flat out has Hashirama admit Obito is stronger than Hashirama. You have NO leg to stand on.


the manga states that hashiramas sennin power>juubito.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 8, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the manga flat out states that hashiramas sage power can stop obito. you have no proof that hashirama knew about juubitos weakness to senjutsu.


With current Edo Rinnegan Mokuton Madara _controlling_ or absorbing Hashirama's Sage Mode. Not Hashirama on his own.


> you cant validate the bold.


Yeah, I can. That's what the manga blatantly SHOWED.


> the rasengan filled up nothing. this is just you lying and expecting people to fall for your nonsense.


Its not lying when the the manga showed the explosion taking up a large amount of area in the crater and barrier.


> the manga states that hashiramas sennin power>juubito.


With _Edo Madara doing something yet unrevealed with it_. The manga said Obito is stronger than Hashirama. You have to deal with that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 9, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im pretty sure that this is before juubitos weakness is revealed. this is also before its flat out stated that hashiramas sennin power can stop obito in under 15 minutes.



You are misunderstanding big time. By Hashirama's own words, a out of control Jubito>>>>>>>>>>>>Hashirama; a Juubito in control is obviously way stronger than Hashirama.

Madara just wants Hashirama's Sage Mode. Sage Mode enhances ALL Madara's powers such as EMS, Mokuton and the Rinnegan. 

In other words with all his powers, Madara can actually take Obito out with Senjutsu. Whereas Hashirama (knowing his full power) said otherwise.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2013)

False. Madara _thinks_ he can take out Obito. So do Naruto & Sasuke.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> False. Madara _thinks_ he can take out Obito. So do Naruto & Sasuke.



Naruto and Sasuke have very different powers to Madara. So its up to the individual poster to determine if Madara can or can't. However none of this necessarily means Hashirama was automatically considered above Juubito just because of the Senjutsu drawback.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto and Sasuke have very different powers to Madara. So its up to the individual poster to determine if Madara can or can't. However none of this necessarily means Hashirama was automatically considered above Juubito just because of the Senjutsu drawback.




I know. In cases you missed it, I supported Obito.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 9, 2013)

BTW does Madara have access to Kurama ITT?


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## Jak N Blak (Oct 9, 2013)

Only Naruto & Lord Kurama can fight Obito.


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## ueharakk (Oct 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You are misunderstanding big time. By Hashirama's own words, a out of control Jubito>>>>>>>>>>>>Hashirama; a Juubito in control is obviously way stronger than Hashirama.
> 
> Madara just wants Hashirama's Sage Mode. Sage Mode enhances ALL Madara's powers such as EMS, Mokuton and the Rinnegan.
> 
> In other words with all his powers, Madara can actually take Obito out with Senjutsu. Whereas Hashirama (knowing his full power) said otherwise.



in addition to that, Obito not being able to just eradicate senjutsu is irrelevant to hashirama's inferiority statement as Hashirama made that statement before he even used his black jinton and before he was using yin + yang release.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> With current Edo Rinnegan Mokuton Madara _controlling_ or absorbing Hashirama's Sage Mode. Not Hashirama on his own.


he clearly said that hashiramas sennin power>juubito. he didnt say that hashiramas power can only stop juubito if he controls it.


> Yeah, I can. That's what the manga blatantly SHOWED.


the manga showed hashirama trying to kill obito when he has only used myoujinmon to restrain? the manga showed hashirama trying to physically restrain juubito. thats it.




> Its not lying when the the manga showed the explosion taking up a large amount of area in the crater and barrier.


the explosion is only as big as both kyuubis. what you are referring to is the impact that the kyuubis made after hitting the ground.


> With _Edo Madara doing something yet unrevealed with it_. The manga said Obito is stronger than Hashirama. You have to deal with that.



he clearly said that hashiramas sennin power>juubito. he didnt say that hashiramas power can only stop juubito if he controls it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> he clearly said that hashiramas sennin power>juubito. he didnt say that hashiramas power can only stop juubito if he controls it.


The manga outright implies that Madara is going to be using Hashirama's Sage Mode on top of his own power to stop Obito to take control.

And the manga blatantly says Hashirama is weaker than Obito. DEAL. WITH. IT.


> the manga showed hashirama trying to kill obito when he has only used myoujinmon to restrain? the manga showed hashirama trying to physically restrain juubito. thats it.


Hashirama used Myojinmon to kill Obito and it failed miserably. His continued stack piling of the Torii was used to try to kill Obito, not restrain him. 

Why do you deny what the manga even says? Unless you're going to claim Hashirama is greater than the Rikudo Sennin-which the manga says OBITO IS THE SAME THING AS now.


> the explosion is only as big as both kyuubis. what you are referring to is the impact that the kyuubis made after hitting the ground.


No, that explosion was dozens of kilometers in size. And no.



> he clearly said that hashiramas sennin power>juubito. he didnt say that hashiramas power can only stop juubito if he controls it.


Madara: Its only a matter of time now *creates a *Chakra disruption blade** I'd say about 15 minutes. Before that happens *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.

Manga clearly has Madara going to take Hashirama's power and add it to his own to fight Obito. So not only you're being dishonest, your twisting manga facts since you don't want Hashirama, who HIMSELF admitted to be inferior to, to be weaker than Obito.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The manga outright implies that Madara is going to be using Hashirama's Sage Mode on top of his own power to stop Obito to take control.


madara didnt say that he will use sage mode on top of his own power. thats just you speculating.


> And the manga blatantly says Hashirama is weaker than Obito. DEAL. WITH. IT.


it just as blatantly states that hashiramas sennin power>obito.


> Hashirama used Myojinmon to kill Obito and it failed miserably. His continued stack piling of the Torii was used to try to kill Obito, not restrain him.


he stacked myoujinmon to increase immobilization. its the same way he didnt just put one gate on the V2 juubi.


> Why do you deny what the manga even says? Unless you're going to claim Hashirama is greater than the Rikudo Sennin-which the manga says OBITO IS THE SAME THING AS now.


so obito is as strong as the sage now?


> No, that explosion was dozens of kilometers in size. And no.


 and you talk about me being dishonest?
you can clearly see the explosion in the bottom right panel.




> Madara: Its only a matter of time now *creates a *Chakra disruption blade** I'd say about 15 minutes. Before that happens *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.


what does this prove?


> Manga clearly has Madara going to take Hashirama's power and* add it to his own to fight Obito.* So not only you're being dishonest, your twisting manga facts since you don't want Hashirama, who HIMSELF admitted to be inferior to, to be weaker than Obito.


you cant validate the bold.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> madara didnt say that he will use sage mode on top of his own power. thats just you speculating.


Its not speculation when Madara specifically says he'll use Hashirama's power to take Obito down.


> it just as blatantly states that hashiramas sennin power>obito.


Except the manga NEVER said Hashirama's Sage Power>Obito. The manga said that Madara will take Obito's place by using Hashirama's Sage Mode. Which means, considering he took out a Chakra Disruption Blade, he'll be siphoning it off or controlling Hashirama. NOT that Hashirama is stronger than Obito. Hashirama himself admitted inferiority, you're arguing against canon and being blatantly dishonest.


> he stacked myoujinmon to increase immobilization. its the same way he didnt just put one gate on the V2 juubi.


He used the Myojinmon offensively. It did didly squat. Only since you love Hashirama so much you can't admit when a offensively used technique from him fails.


> so obito is as strong as the sage now?


Madara: Now that Obito has become the same as the Sage of Six Paths, he might get ahead of me before I do my trump card.


> and you talk about me being dishonest?
> you can clearly see the explosion in the bottom right panel.


...the explosion is in the _middle_ panel, and its greater in size than several mountains in the foreground and even larger than the Bijudama Flower.



> what does this prove?


That Madara USING Hashirama's Sennin Powers is enough to take down Obito, or Madara hopes it'll be so. It never says Hashirama is stronger than Obito. Not once. 


> you cant validate the bold.


Other than the fact Madara has taken out a Chakra Disruption Blade and specifically said HE would be using Hashirama's Sage Powers.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its not speculation when Madara specifically says he'll use Hashirama's power to take Obito down.


he will use* hashiramas sennin power* to take down obito. read what you just said.


> Except the manga NEVER said Hashirama's Sage Power>Obito. The manga said that Madara will take Obito's place by using Hashirama's Sage Mode. Which means, considering he took out a Chakra Disruption Blade, he'll be siphoning it off or controlling Hashirama. NOT that Hashirama is stronger than Obito. Hashirama himself admitted inferiority, you're arguing against canon and being blatantly dishonest.


this was before a sage mode weakness was revealed and before it was stated that hashiramas sage power>obito.


> He used the Myojinmon offensively. It did didly squat. Only since you love Hashirama so much you can't admit when a offensively used technique from him fails.


he used it as a restraint. myoujinmon is classified as a sealing technique.


> Madara: Now that Obito has become the same as the Sage of Six Paths, he might get ahead of me before I do my trump card.


where does it say that obito is as strong as the sage?


> ...the explosion is in the _middle_ panel, and its greater in size than several mountains in the foreground and even larger than the Bijudama Flower.


im pretty sure that its in the bottom right panel since thats the only panel that shows the rasengan exploding. 



> That Madara USING Hashirama's Sennin Powers is enough to take down Obito, or Madara hopes it'll be so. It never says Hashirama is stronger than Obito. Not once.


it doesnt have to sat hashirama specifically. hashirama is a wielder of his own sennin power which was stated to be>obito.


> Other than the fact Madara has taken out a Chakra Disruption Blade and specifically said HE would be using Hashirama's Sage Powers.


whats your point?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> he will use* hashiramas sennin power* to take down obito. read what you just said.


Exactly, NOT Hashirama's Sage Mode power ON HIS OWN. Edo Rinnegan Madara + Hashirama's Sage Mode Power to take down Obito. There is no other interpretation.


> this was before a sage mode weakness was revealed and before it was stated that hashiramas sage power>obito.




The manga never SAID that. Are we even reading the same thing? I even quoted word for word. Madara WITH Hashirama's Sage Mode Power>Obito. That is what was said. And Hashirama STILL is inferior to Obito.


> he used it as a restraint. myoujinmon is classified as a sealing technique.


He used it as both a restraint and an offensive technique. He tried to FLATTEN Obito and it didn't do anything.


> where does it say that obito is as strong as the sage?


Madara called him the SAME THING as the Sage. That means he's just as strong, or pretty close.


> im pretty sure that its in the bottom right panel since thats the only panel that shows the rasengan exploding.


Look again. Middle bottom panel within the barrier there's a massive explosion from the Senjutsu Kurama powered Rasengan. 



> it doesnt have to sat hashirama specifically. hashirama is a wielder of his own sennin power which was stated to be>obito.


No, the manga said 'Edo Madara WITH Hashirama's Sage Power>Obito' or at least that's what Madara HOPES. 


> whats your point?


Madara can control Hashirama with a stab of the Disruption blade. Madara can also drain his chakra with Preta Path. Point is: Madara is going to drain Sage Mode from Hashirama or make Hashirama his puppet turning him into a Path.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Exactly, NOT Hashirama's Sage Mode power ON HIS OWN. Edo Rinnegan Madara + Hashirama's Sage Mode Power to take down Obito. There is no other interpretation.


the manga only places hashiramas power as a factor in obitos defeat.


> The manga never SAID that. Are we even reading the same thing? I even quoted word for word. Madara WITH Hashirama's Sage Mode Power>Obito. That is what was said. And Hashirama STILL is inferior to Obito.


hashiramas sage power>obito as the manga stated. the manga stated that hashiramas sage power can


> He used it as both a restraint and an offensive technique. He tried to FLATTEN Obito and it didn't do anything.


just like he tried to flatten the juubi right? you cant prove that he was using it to kill obito purely due to the nature of the technique and what it was stated to do. they are stated to be seals. nothing more.


> Madara called him the SAME THING as the Sage. That means he's just as strong, or pretty close.


im not seeing obito making any moons. obito is the same as the sage because he is the juubis jinchuriki, not because of his power level.


> Look again. Middle bottom panel within the barrier there's a massive explosion from the Senjutsu Kurama powered Rasengan.


no there isnt. i hope you know that you are supposed to read this manga from right to left. the explosion is in the bottom right panel. is the "explosion" on the left side of the juubidama tree also from the rasengan? nope. the middle panel is obviously both kyuubis and obito crashing into the ground.
anything else you say on this will be ignored as its already been disproved.



> No, the manga said 'Edo Madara WITH Hashirama's Sage Power>Obito' or at least that's what Madara HOPES.


the manga said that hashiramas sennin power>obito. its put pretty bluntly.


> Madara can control Hashirama with a stab of the Disruption blade. Madara can also drain his chakra with Preta Path. Point is: Madara is going to drain Sage Mode from Hashirama or make Hashirama his puppet turning him into a Path.


the manga puts this bluntly. hashiramas sennin power can stop obito in under 15 minutes.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the manga only places hashiramas power as a factor in obitos defeat.


No, it doesn't. The manga places Hashirama's power in Madara's hands, which Madara hopes, will defeat Current Obito.


> hashiramas sage power>obito as the manga stated. the manga stated that hashiramas sage power can


No, the manga said Madara using Hashirama's Sage Power>Obito. I even quoted word, for, word.


> just like he tried to flatten the juubi right? you cant prove that he was using it to kill obito purely due to the nature of the technique and what it was stated to do. they are stated to be seals. nothing more.


Seals being used OFFENSIVELY to flatten Obito. He was attacking with killing intent and it failed.


> im not seeing obito making any moons. obito is the same as the sage because he is the juubis jinchuriki, not because of his power level.


Why can't Obito make moons? He's in full control of the Jyubi.


> no there isnt. i hope you know that you are supposed to read this manga from right to left. the explosion is in the bottom right panel. is the "explosion" on the left side of the juubidama tree also from the rasengan? nope. the middle panel is obviously both kyuubis and obito crashing into the ground.
> anything else you say on this will be ignored as its already been disproved.


You really need some glasses or something. We see an explosion from BM Minato and BSM Naruto's Rasengan completely exploding in the BOTTOM MIDDLE PANEL. You just don't want to admit it.



> the manga said that hashiramas sennin power>obito. its put pretty bluntly.
> 
> the manga puts this bluntly. hashiramas sennin power can stop obito in under 15 minutes.


The manga puts this bluntly: Madara will control Hashirama's Sennin Power to fight Obito. Your claim is false and goes against what is actually said. I mean dear god, I quoted WORD FOR FUCKING WORD and yet you STILL...


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## Ƶero (Oct 9, 2013)

Why are people still arguing this? Hashirama admitted inferiority to Mindless V1 Juubito, that's canon and can not be argued.
V2 Juubito is far stronger and way above Hokage level. He shitstomps Hashirama regardless of his sage mode.

Madara wants to combine Sage mode with his Rinnegan, and EMS abilities which is a lot stronger than Hashirama+Madara as individuals working together. V2 Juubito stomps them both here. Even Sage rinnegan Madara isnt guaranteed to beat Juubito.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> Why are people still arguing this? Hashirama admitted inferiority to Mindless V1 Juubito, that's canon and can not be argued.
> V2 Juubito is far stronger and way above Hokage level. He shitstomps Hashirama regardless of his sage mode.
> 
> Madara wants to combine Sage mode with his Rinnegan, and EMS abilities which is a lot stronger than Hashirama+Madara as individuals working together. V2 Juubito stomps them both here. Even Sage rinnegan Madara isnt guaranteed to beat Juubito.


Its because Shinobi no Kami doesn't want to admit that its Madara using Hashirama's Sage Powers that could give him a chance against Obito. He thinks its solely Hashirama's Sage Powers.


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## Trojan (Oct 9, 2013)

Even if Madara took Hashi's SM, how is that prove he can win? Just because he thinks so, that does not
proof anything. 

it's the same as Naruto & Sasue they both have their power with SM, yet they did not do anything to obtio yet!

Hashi's wankers were trying to probe the proofs against him by saying it's old, now I wonder what they are
trying to say!

What is even funny, his wankers don't take his statement about being weaker than Mindless obito V1, but
when it come to other characters they use this exact statement to say him admitting inferiority to obito mean he's stronger than the others. lol


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## Ennoia (Oct 9, 2013)

Naruto and Sasuke are not Hashirama and Madara, Sasuke merely has the potential to be Madara and surpass him. Sasuke and Naruto are just now (pretty much the last chapter) really bringing their powers together. The same way Jugo was in Susanoo pumping SM into it Hashirama can do the same thing and use Mokuton at the same time. One can even imagine what a SM Bhudda with SM Susanoo wrapped around it is capable of doing, so I do believe that Hashirama and Madara can pull this off especially if Madara can put Susanoo on the Thousand Hands. While I cant see any single person pulling this off, if any duo can do it its these two.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Naruto and Sasuke are not Hashirama and Madara, Sasuke merely has the potential to be Madara and surpass him. Sasuke and Naruto are just now (pretty much the last chapter) really bringing their powers together. The same way Jugo was in Susanoo pumping SM into it Hashirama can do the same thing and use Mokuton at the same time. One can even imagine what a SM Bhudda with SM Susanoo wrapped around it is capable of doing, so I do believe that Hashirama and Madara can pull this off especially if Madara can put Susanoo on the Thousand Hands. While I cant see any single person pulling this off, if any duo can do it its these two.


Sasuke and Naruto have shown to be a far better team than Hashirama and Madara. Naruto's according to the manga itself (Hashirama's own thoughts) has surpassed Hashirama (given he combines Sage Mode AND Biju Mode into Sage Biju Mode/Biju Sage Mode, and has actually been holding his own against the Jyubi beforehand, defeated five Biju, powered up the entire army, saved the entire army) and Sasuke has a better offense with Perfect Susanoo with his Enton than Madara has. 

Jubito fodderizes both Hashirama and Madara.


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## Ennoia (Oct 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke and Naruto have shown to be a far better team than Hashirama and Madara. Naruto's according to the manga itself (Hashirama's own thoughts) has surpassed Hashirama (given he combines Sage Mode AND Biju Mode into Sage Biju Mode/Biju Sage Mode, and has actually been holding his own against the Jyubi beforehand, defeated five Biju, powered up the entire army, saved the entire army) and Sasuke has a better offense with Perfect Susanoo with his Enton than Madara has.
> 
> Jubito fodderizes both Hashirama and Madara.



"have shown," remember that because Naruto and Sasuke have had much more screen time fighting together than Madara and Hashirama but it is not hard to see how their abilities wold compliment each other. Im going to need a link of seeing Hashirama thinking Naruto surpassed him because last I saw it took the combined powers of both Kurama and he before Hashirama said that that chakra might be more than he has and the fact that he was fighting around the God Tree while Naruto got caught.

Sasuke has not been showing splitting apart mountains with a casual swing of his sword nor has he shown a Susanoo the size of Madara's. It has been outright said that he has the potential to be Madara meaning he does not have the same level of ability yet. The point is, Sasuke has not shown to be on the same level as Madara and the manga outright says this, whether or not Naruto surpassed Hashirama is up to speculation but I believe that Hashirama still far surpasses him as Madara surpasses Sasuke. 

As such you cannot use what Naruto and Sasuke have done to establish that Madara and Hashirama would lose not only because they are weaker but also because their abilities have the potential to far surpass what the other duo has shown. Madara believes he can take down Obito with SM (Madara has the most knowledge on Obito and thus would probably have the best character statement) so if Hashirama simply pumped SM into Susanoo that should automatically make this a decent fight. With the added abilities of Hashirama (such as Thousand Hands) it could be argued that based simply on character statements that the duo can win.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 9, 2013)

This thread is still breathing? The fuck obito flies around at break neck speeds rapidly assault the duo with his god release therefore taking the win. 

If 2 hokage level opponents was all it took to beat obito it would have happened by now. Naruto and sasuke are about to go way way past hokage level next chapter so no smart remarks.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> "have shown," remember that because Naruto and Sasuke have had much more screen time fighting together than Madara and Hashirama but it is not hard to see how their abilities wold compliment each other. Im going to need a link of seeing Hashirama thinking Naruto surpassed him because last I saw it took the combined powers of both Kurama and he before Hashirama said that that chakra might be more than he has and the fact that he was fighting around the God Tree while Naruto got caught.


Naruto and Sasuke having more screentime means they're getting more feats to surpass Hashirama and Madara. And of course the God Tree immediately got Naruto: _he had the most chakra there_, he was at the EPICENTER while Hashirama and Madara weren't. Hashirama has been surpassed by Naruto the moment Naruto combined Biju and Sage Mode's. 


> Sasuke has not been showing splitting apart mountains with a casual swing of his sword nor has he shown a Susanoo the size of Madara's. It has been outright said that he has the potential to be Madara meaning he does not have the same level of ability yet. The point is, Sasuke has not shown to be on the same level as Madara and the manga outright says this, whether or not Naruto surpassed Hashirama is up to speculation but I believe that Hashirama still far surpasses him as Madara surpasses Sasuke.


...Sasuke just GOT Perfect Susano'o. That means he has the same capability and power that Madara has, if not moreso since he adds Enton to his Susanoo which Madara doesn't. 

And how is it speculation when Naruto not only has superior firepower, speed, strength, and agility in Biju Mode, but even moreso with Biju Sage Mode?


> As such you cannot use what Naruto and Sasuke have done to establish that Madara and Hashirama would lose not only because they are weaker but also because their abilities have the potential to far surpass what the other duo has shown. Madara believes he can take down Obito with SM (Madara has the most knowledge on Obito and thus would probably have the best character statement) so if Hashirama simply pumped SM into Susanoo that should automatically make this a decent fight. With the added abilities of Hashirama (such as Thousand Hands) it could be argued that based simply on character statements that the duo can win.


Madara taking Hashirama's Sage Mode for his own, stacking onto his Rinnegan, his EMS powers, and his Mokuton will probably allow him to hold his own against Obito, but won't win. 

Oh, and when has Hashirama gotten the Chakra Transfer ability anyway? The only reason why Jugo and Naruto are able to do so is because they can transfer their chakra to others.


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## Ennoia (Oct 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *Naruto and Sasuke having more screentime means they're getting more feats to surpass Hashirama and Madara*. And of course the God Tree immediately got Naruto: _he had the most chakra there_, he was at the EPICENTER while Hashirama and Madara weren't. Hashirama has been surpassed by Naruto the moment Naruto combined Biju and Sage Mode's.


Getting more feats does not equate to surpassing Madara and Hashirama especially when we have direct testaments that Sasuke specifically has not surpassed Madara and with the flow of logic neither has Naruto surpassed Hashirama. Hashirama was specifically stated to have comparable chakra to Naruto so the tree was going after him all the same and Madara has shown a large amount of chakra as well so that excuse isnt going to fly. They were all within roughly the same distance of the tree and yet Naruto got caught while Hashirama was fighting on it. It is your opinion that Naruto surpassed Hashirama, nothing says he has, considering Sasuke is inferior to Madara and Naruto and Sasuke are continually alluded to be the future Madara and Hashirama logic would also tell us that Naruto has not surpassed Hashirama.



> ...Sasuke just GOT Perfect Susano'o. That means he has the same capability and power that Madara has, if not moreso since he adds Enton to his Susanoo which Madara doesn't.


Sasuke has not yet shown Perfect Susanoo and he has only achieved many of his feats while having Naruto's chakra shroud around him so almost all he has accomplished automatically must be taken with a grain of salt. We dont know the extent of Madara's powers but we do know that nothing Sasuke has done is on the level of Madara when he is serious, this is fact.



> And how is it speculation when Naruto not only has superior firepower, speed, strength, and agility in Biju Mode, but even moreso with Biju Sage Mode?


We have not seen Hashirama fight to say that Naruto is superior in any way, we have only seen brief clips of his abilities.



> Madara taking Hashirama's Sage Mode for his own, stacking onto his Rinnegan, his EMS powers, and his Mokuton will probably allow him to hold his own against Obito, *but won't win*.


Your opinion, Madara seems to think otherwise.



> Oh, and when has Hashirama gotten the Chakra Transfer ability anyway? The only reason why Jugo and Naruto are able to do so is because they can transfer their chakra to others.


Anyone can give any other person chakra its just a matter of adapting to that chakra, Naruto could give people chakra because it was specifically stated that he matched his chakra to theirs and Sasuke could match his chakra with Jugo's (I can get links if needed). Considering it has already been said that Madara can utilize Natural Energy there is no reason to believe that he cannot put meld with Hashirama's chakra. You can take this a step further by saying that because he can utilize Mokuton that he can fit with Hashirama's chakra as well as it being implied when he said he would use Hashirama's SM.


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## Trojan (Oct 9, 2013)

Hashi did not even said the combined power of both Kurama's is as his own. I don't know why Hashi's fanboys
love fanfiction this much and mixed it up with reality. All what he said is the chakra that Naruto HAD SHARED with
the alliance is as big as his own. But, oh well, fanboys will keep their fanboysim up, I suppose.


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## Trojan (Oct 9, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Your opinion, Madara seems to think otherwise.



Great, Naruto also thinks he will solo the war all by himself, therefore, he's stronger than
Madara and obito at the same time because he believe so.


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## Ennoia (Oct 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> Hashi did not even said the combined power of both Kurama's is as his own. I don't know why Hashi's fanboys
> love fanfiction this much and mixed it up with reality. All what he said is the chakra that Naruto HAD SHARED with
> the alliance is as big as his own. But, oh well, fanboys will keep their fanboysim up, I suppose.


Thats your interpretation of the manga, id rather go with the more likely scenario. I find it funny though you're calling me a fanboy when I dont ever recall arguing for Hashirama EVER.



Elia said:


> Great, Naruto also thinks he will solo the war all by himself, therefore, he's stronger than
> Madara and obito at the same time because he believe so.


We arnt talking about baseless assertions here, Madara knows everything about the situation given  that it is his plan, he knows everything about Rinnegan and Sharingan, the history of ninjutsu, and everything else. He isnt talking out of his ass and we shouldnt assume so when he knows more about Obito in his current form than anyone else. Hell he even recognized when Obito was beginning Infinite Tsukuyomi. If you are going to try to compare at least use something that makes dosent make you lose all credit here.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2013)

It isn't a baseless assertion, Ennoia. The situation tends to end in Naruto's favor when everything's all said and done. Madara has a track record of things not going as planned.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 9, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Getting more feats does not equate to surpassing Madara and Hashirama especially when we have direct testaments that Sasuke specifically has not surpassed Madara and with the flow of logic neither has Naruto surpassed Hashirama. Hashirama was specifically stated to have comparable chakra to Naruto so the tree was going after him all the same and Madara has shown a large amount of chakra as well so that excuse isnt going to fly. They were all within roughly the same distance of the tree and yet Naruto got caught while Hashirama was fighting on it. It is your opinion that Naruto surpassed Hashirama, nothing says he has, considering Sasuke is inferior to Madara and Naruto and Sasuke are continually alluded to be the future Madara and Hashirama logic would also tell us that Naruto has not surpassed Hashirama.


Hashirama had as much chakra as the chakra Naruto had given the entire army, not as much chakra as Naruto himself Ennoia. That's a common misconception.

And Naruto was at ground zero when the God Tree formed. Hashirama was not. And the Tree automatically sought out large sources of chakra and Naruto had the largest in the area, thus was the one immediately put down and drained.



> Sasuke has not yet shown Perfect Susanoo and he has only achieved many of his feats while having Naruto's chakra shroud around him so almost all he has accomplished automatically must be taken with a grain of salt. We dont know the extent of Madara's powers but we do know that nothing Sasuke has done is on the level of Madara when he is serious, this is fact.


Sasuke awakens Perfect Susanoo here without Naruto's V1 Cloak around him. And yes, we DO know the full extent of Madara's and Hashirama's abilities: did you miss 620-626?



> We have not seen Hashirama fight to say that Naruto is superior in any way, we have only seen brief clips of his abilities.


...again, did you miss chapters 619-626? Hashirama's been surpassed by Naruto in firepower, speed, strength, and overall ability. Hell he was able to react and track Obito in his current form, Hashirama got blitzed by the initial.



> Your opinion, Madara seems to think otherwise.


Madara thinks that he can win, but Sage Mode itself isn't a guarantee victory. 



> Anyone can give any other person chakra its just a matter of adapting to that chakra, Naruto could give people chakra because it was specifically stated that he matched his chakra to theirs and Sasuke could match his chakra with Jugo's (I can get links if needed). Considering it has already been said that Madara can utilize Natural Energy there is no reason to believe that he cannot put meld with Hashirama's chakra. You can take this a step further by saying that because he can utilize Mokuton that he can fit with Hashirama's chakra as well as it being implied when he said he would use Hashirama's SM.


No...not anyone can give people chakra. Its a rare ability in the manga. Naruto, Jugo, Minato, and Dan are the only ones other than the Biju able to transfer chakra to other people. Hashirama has no feats of being capable of doing it.


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## Trojan (Oct 10, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Thats your interpretation of the manga, id rather go with the more likely scenario. I find it funny though you're calling me a fanboy when I dont ever recall arguing for Hashirama EVER.
> 
> 
> We arnt talking about baseless assertions here, Madara knows everything about the situation given  that it is his plan, he knows everything about Rinnegan and Sharingan, the history of ninjutsu, and everything else. He isnt talking out of his ass and we shouldnt assume so when he knows more about Obito in his current form than anyone else. Hell he even recognized when Obito was beginning Infinite Tsukuyomi. If you are going to try to compare at least use something that makes dosent make you lose all credit here.



- No that what he said. 
- Well, arguing that Hashi is stronger than obito, when he himself admitted that he's weaker than mindless obito, is surely to be a thing that a fanboy would say. The same with madara.

- So? And Naruto and the others know as well that Senjutsu will effect obito, did that make them
win so far? No, it did not. 

- Did not madara think that he will be the one to become the Juubi's host as well?
Did madara know that obito was in fact using seals to seal the Juubi? and so on and so fourth,

you are talking about baseless argument, when madara's statement by itself is baseless, and
surely he does not have the feats so far to do so, neither does he have SM here or in the manga
so far. Also, by this same logic Sasuke said they will end him in the last chapter, so I suppose
that also prove Naruto and Sasuke are stronger than him?

Minato also said his jutsu will defeat obito in chapter 639, he's also stronger than obito because he believe that he will defeat him with his jutsu? 

and so on and so fourth, there are tons of examples for this same thing.


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## Trojan (Oct 10, 2013)

Sasuke awakens Perfect Susanoo here without Naruto's V1 Cloak around him.

here madara also thought his plan succeeded, but he was wrong again. 

Sasuke awakens Perfect Susanoo here without Naruto's V1 Cloak around him.

again he admitted his plan failed. 

and I believe there was one more when he said everyone is doing as they will. 
(referring to obito, and Nagato)

it's not like if Madara had no failed in his plans before. And Also, according the Frog Sage, the one who will
stop the disaster is Naruto, so that's also against what madara thinks. and according to the Data Book what
the frog sees is 100% true.

However, Madara might take over AFTER obito being defeated. There is just no way that kishi will make madara the one to defeat obito instead of Naruto.


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## Ennoia (Oct 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama had as much chakra as the chakra Naruto had given the entire army, not as much chakra as Naruto himself Ennoia. That's a common misconception.


Going to need to see proof then, and dont try to convince me with what you think, I need solid proof.



> And Naruto was at ground zero when the God Tree formed. Hashirama was not. And the Tree automatically sought out large sources of chakra and Naruto had the largest in the area, thus was the one immediately put down and drained.


 The exact positions of everyone is unclear as Naruto and Minato were tossed to the other side of the barrier where Madara and Hashirama were fighting when the tree formed. So you cannot say they were at ground zero and the other two werent. They were all in the same general location and Naruto was caught twice (in the beginning and here) while Hashirama was fighting Madara and dodging at the same time.



> Sasuke awakens Perfect Susanoo here without Naruto's V1 Cloak around him. And yes, we DO know the full extent of Madara's and Hashirama's abilities: did you miss 620-626?


First off you do not know whether or not that is PS until it comes out fully and he is clearly standing directly next to Naruto and you can quite literally see their chakra melding as the black chakra from Susanoo is going onto Naruto and Naruto's chakra is flowing over to Sasuke; so he is still using Naruto's chakra to pull off this feat regardless of whether or not its PS.



> ...again, did you miss chapters 619-626? Hashirama's been surpassed by Naruto in firepower, speed, strength, and overall ability. Hell he was able to react and track Obito in his current form, Hashirama got blitzed by the initial.


As I said we only really saw brief moments of Hashirama actually doing anything unless you believe that Hashirama only has the Buddha, Dragon, and Thousand Hands. We have not seen him use Flower Tree or anything else, we know he can make huge forests we saw nothing of the sort, we know he can heal instantly we didnt see this, we saw nothing. Hashirama had clones out and Madara took out a clone sitting down, his power was dispersed and he was not in SM. We do not have enough information to say Naruto has surpassed Hashirama unless you go strictly by feats by which Hashirama has very few. If we were discussing who would win in a situation based on what we know then you have a point, but surpassing someone is another story because it is based on more than just feats as Hashi has few.



> Madara thinks that he can win, but Sage Mode itself isn't a guarantee victory.


Thats true, but considering his level of confidence in the matter and what he knows I would like to think he would rather than not. However while I wouldnt say his win is guarenteed but probable this is far from what you said being that Madara "wont win." You cant say he wont win.



> No...not anyone can give people chakra. Its a rare ability in the manga. Naruto, Jugo, Minato, and Dan are the only ones other than the Biju able to transfer chakra to other people. Hashirama has no feats of being capable of doing it.


I have already shown you that anyone can do it, we have seen that any person can place chakra into another person because thats how genjutsu is broken, medical ninja do it all the time to replenish chakra and heal. The _people you named have nothing in common_, giving chakra is not a random ability, we have even seen that Chiyo was able to use anyones chakra to revive Gaara and Naruto even had to ask if she could do so which wouldnt be the case if he knew he had such an ability. Tsunade pumped up Onoki, Sakura gave many people chakra through Katsuya, im guessing shes on the list too. Anyone can give anyone chakra, whether or not they can use that chakra depends on whether or not the giver can meld their chakra with the receiver, which is the hard part and which is why Kurama (if I recall right) was surprised that Naruto did it to so many people so easily.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 10, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Going to need to see proof then, and dont try to convince me with what you think, I need solid proof.


Elia already gave you a link. Hashirama compared the chakra that Naruto had given out to his own.



> The exact positions of everyone is unclear as Naruto and Minato were tossed to the other side of the barrier where Madara and Hashirama were fighting when the tree formed. So you cannot say they were at ground zero and the other two werent. They were all in the same general location and Naruto was caught twice (in the beginning and here) while Hashirama was fighting Madara and dodging at the same time.


They were at ground zero. They were the closest fighting against Obito and the tree automatically sought them out since they had the largest two sources of chakra in the area. Hashirama and Madara didn't have as much chakra hence why they were able to avoid being swamped.



> First off you do not know whether or not that is PS until it comes out fully and he is clearly standing directly next to Naruto and you can quite literally see their chakra melding as the black chakra from Susanoo is going onto Naruto and Naruto's chakra is flowing over to Sasuke; so he is still using Naruto's chakra to pull off this feat regardless of whether or not its PS.


...that's Perfect Susano'o, all Sasuke is doing is shaping it around Naruto's BSM Kurama cloak like Madara did with Kurama! You honestly think Kishimoto wouldn't show that panel to say 'Sasuke now has Perfect Susano'o'? And no, he isn't, all he's doing is shaping his PS around Kurama's avatar like Madara did with Kurama himself.



> As I said we only really saw brief moments of Hashirama actually doing anything unless you believe that Hashirama only has the Buddha, Dragon, and Thousand Hands. We have not seen him use Flower Tree or anything else, we know he can make huge forests we saw nothing of the sort, we know he can heal instantly we didnt see this, we saw nothing. Hashirama had clones out and Madara took out a clone sitting down, his power was dispersed and he was not in SM. We do not have enough information to say Naruto has surpassed Hashirama unless you go strictly by feats by which Hashirama has very few. If we were discussing who would win in a situation based on what we know then you have a point, but surpassing someone is another story because it is based on more than just feats as Hashi has few.


We saw Hashirama's full strength (Senpo: Mokuton: Shinsusenju) which is inferior to Biju Sage Mode Naruto's power. Hashirama has shown all he is capable of. 



> Thats true, but considering his level of confidence in the matter and what he knows I would like to think he would rather than not. However while I wouldnt say his win is guarenteed but probable this is far from what you said being that Madara "wont win." You cant say he wont win.


Look at Madara's track record. He's failed each and every turn. Why would he succeed here?



> I have already shown you that anyone can do it, we have seen that any person can place chakra into another person because thats how genjutsu is broken, medical ninja do it all the time to replenish chakra and heal. The _people you named have nothing in common_, giving chakra is not a random ability, we have even seen that Chiyo was able to use anyones chakra to revive Gaara and Naruto even had to ask if she could do so which wouldnt be the case if he knew he had such an ability. Tsunade pumped up Onoki, Sakura gave many people chakra through Katsuya, im guessing shes on the list too. Anyone can give anyone chakra, whether or not they can use that chakra depends on whether or not the giver can meld their chakra with the receiver, which is the hard part and which is why Kurama (if I recall right) was surprised that Naruto did it to so many people so easily.


There's a difference between Medical Ninjutsu and genjutsu breaking than giving someone else their chakra to power them up, Ennoia. Its a rather rare ability, only Minato, Tsunade, Naruto, Jugo, and Dan really have the capability of doing so. Hashirama has zero feats for doing it.


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## Ennoia (Oct 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Elia already gave you a link. Hashirama compared the chakra that Naruto had given out to his own.


The link proves nothing as the wording is exactly the same as before. What you are trying to say makes no sense as you would be essentially be calling Hashirama an idiot. Why would Hashirama say that Naruto has the same amount of chakra as he if he does not know the limits of Naruto's chakra? Thats like seeing someone use a jutsu and saying because they can use the jutsu they must have as much chakra as me since I can use it too, that jutsu is not an indication of a persons chakra levels because you can quite casually use a jutsu or you can struggle to do so. It makes much more sense for Hashirama to be measuring the overall chakra that Naruto has (considering he is a sensor) rather than measuring only the chakra he is using at the moment. If you are going to say its a misconception you have to prove that it is with facts not with your interpretation.



> They were at ground zero. They were the closest fighting against Obito and the tree automatically sought them out since they had the largest two sources of chakra in the area. Hashirama and Madara didn't have as much chakra hence why they were able to avoid being swamped.


And you cant prove that they were significantly closer when I literally just gave you manga pages that Naruto and Sasuke were tossed to the area where Hashirama and Madara were fighting. Now if you want to just agree to disagree on the chakra thing thats fine because it is again your interpretation that I am just not seeing but I need to see some definitive proof that Naruto 

A- Has superior chakra levels
B- Still had superior chakra levels after having shared his chakra with the whole alliance twice



> ...that's Perfect Susano'o, all Sasuke is doing is shaping it around Naruto's BSM Kurama cloak like Madara did with Kurama! You honestly think Kishimoto wouldn't show that panel to say 'Sasuke now has Perfect Susano'o'? And no, he isn't, all he's doing is shaping his PS around Kurama's avatar like Madara did with Kurama himself.


You THINK it is PS, we saw Naruto attempt to use TBB against the Raikage only to see it fail. You cannot assume that a person is capable of something until they do it, which we will find out next chapter. We can both quite clearly see that Naruto's chakra is seeping onto Sasuke's side so there is no argument that Sasuke is not using he chakra regardless of what you think the same way Kakashi was healed just by being within Naruto's chakra.



> We saw Hashirama's full strength (Senpo: Mokuton: Shinsusenju) which is inferior to Biju Sage Mode Naruto's power. Hashirama has shown all he is capable of.


Again your opinion because it assumes that Thousand Hands is his strongest attack, his most useful attack for any situation, and his most destructive attack. We still do not know what Hashirama is capable of to make a fair call as to whether or not he was surpassed especially when we see that Sasuke has not surpassed Madara. Its simply a difference of opinions again but I think you are jumping the gun here.



> Look at Madara's track record. He's failed each and every turn. Why would he succeed here?


Madara was dead, he was counting on others to accomplish his plan and he has since turned every failure into something better (being edo and not revived), he has the most information regarding Obito and that entire situation so if anyone were to make such a claim it should be Madara. By my overall point was that there is no indication that Madara would or should be outright lying for you to say he cannot win.



> There's a difference between Medical Ninjutsu and genjutsu breaking than giving someone else their chakra to power them up, Ennoia. Its a rather rare ability, only Minato, Tsunade, Naruto, Jugo, and Dan really have the capability of doing so. Hashirama has zero feats for doing it.


No its not, the people fighting in the alliance ontop of melted Katsuya quite clearly said that they can continue to fight even if their chakra is being absorbed meaning they would be gaining chakra back. You cannot give someone back their own used chakra, you have to give them yours. What you are essentially saying is that until someone does something basic we cant assume that they can do it. The manga quite clearly says you are wrong, Madara can adapt to Hashirama's chakra the same as Jugo and Sasuke so it is possible. You didnt refute anything I said and just brushed it under the rug; all the reasons I mentioned are valid.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 10, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> The link proves nothing as the wording is exactly the same as before. What you are trying to say makes no sense as you would be essentially be calling Hashirama an idiot. Why would Hashirama say that Naruto has the same amount of chakra as he if he does not know the limits of Naruto's chakra? Thats like seeing someone use a jutsu and saying because they can use the jutsu they must have as much chakra as me since I can use it too, that jutsu is not an indication of a persons chakra levels because you can quite casually use a jutsu or you can struggle to do so. It makes much more sense for Hashirama to be measuring the overall chakra that Naruto has (considering he is a sensor) rather than measuring only the chakra he is using at the moment. If you are going to say its a misconception you have to prove that it is with facts not with your interpretation.


You yourself said Hashirama is a sensor. He sensed the sheer volume of chakra that was given to the Allied Shinobi Forces and directly compared THAT to his own. 

Hashirama: So he's sharing his chakra with all the other shinobi! That's an impressive *volume* of chakra...comparable to mine in fact!

Word for word, Hashirama was solely comparing the chakra given to the Allied Shinobi Forces to his own.



> And you cant prove that they were significantly closer when I literally just gave you manga pages that Naruto and Sasuke were tossed to the area where Hashirama and Madara were fighting. Now if you want to just agree to disagree on the chakra thing thats fine because it is again your interpretation that I am just not seeing but I need to see some definitive proof that Naruto
> 
> A- Has superior chakra levels
> B- Still had superior chakra levels after having shared his chakra with the whole alliance twice


Naruto has superior chakra levels since the Shinju attacked and drained him full force while Hashirama and Madara had what, one or two branches attacking? Even the manga says the Shinju automatically attacks large amounts of chakra more voraciously. Hashirama and Madara were attacked fewer branches and were farther away from Naruto and Minato vs Obito. The manga made it quite clear Naruto has more chakra than Hashirama due to the Shinju seeking him out first.



> You THINK it is PS, we saw Naruto attempt to use TBB against the Raikage only to see it fail. You cannot assume that a person is capable of something until they do it, which we will find out next chapter. We can both quite clearly see that Naruto's chakra is seeping onto Sasuke's side so there is no argument that Sasuke is not using he chakra regardless of what you think the same way Kakashi was healed just by being within Naruto's chakra.


Except that when in Naruto's cloak, there is no power up. Kakashi and Gai neither got a power up when they were in the Kurama Avatar's cloak. And finally it is Perfect Susano'o, The tengu mask is the primary trait of Perfect Susano'o. And as you said, Kakashi and Gai got healed by Kurama's mass of chakra while floating in it: they did NOT get power up.



> Again your opinion because it assumes that Thousand Hands is his strongest attack, his most useful attack for any situation, and his most destructive attack. We still do not know what Hashirama is capable of to make a fair call as to whether or not he was surpassed especially when we see that Sasuke has not surpassed Madara. Its simply a difference of opinions again but I think you are jumping the gun here.


The manga made it quite clear that Senpo: Mokuton: Shinsusenju was Hashirama's most powerful attack from its sheer size, its ability to completely strip away Perfect Susano'o off of Kurama. There is no any reason to believe it wasn't his strongest technique other than you want to give him something else.



> Madara was dead, he was counting on others to accomplish his plan and he has since turned every failure into something better (being edo and not revived), he has the most information regarding Obito and that entire situation so if anyone were to make such a claim it should be Madara. By my overall point was that there is no indication that Madara would or should be outright lying for you to say he cannot win.


...I never said Madara was lying. I said due to his track record, he probably won't succeed. Hell his most recent try to return back to life and become the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki ended in miserable failure. So why would this be ANY different?



> No its not, the people fighting in the alliance ontop of melted Katsuya quite clearly said that they can continue to fight even if their chakra is being absorbed meaning they would be gaining chakra back. You cannot give someone back their own used chakra, you have to give them yours. What you are essentially saying is that until someone does something basic we cant assume that they can do it. The manga quite clearly says you are wrong, Madara can adapt to Hashirama's chakra the same as Jugo and Sasuke so it is possible. You didnt refute anything I said and just brushed it under the rug; all the reasons I mentioned are valid.


Katsuyu would be giving them back the chakra they lose while fighting the Shinju. Hashirama has yet to show the capability for a Chakra Transfer.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2013)

We still don't really have any idea how powerful Jubito is at his best, so this match could end up being a stomp in either direction.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 10, 2013)

One more time: does Madara have access to 100% Kurama ITT?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, it doesn't. The manga places Hashirama's power in Madara's hands, which Madara hopes, will defeat Current Obito.


correction. the manga says that hashiramas power can defeat obito. it didnt say madara+hashiramas sennin power>obito.


> No, the manga said Madara using Hashirama's Sage Power>Obito. I even quoted word, for, word.


well you read it wrong.


> Seals being used OFFENSIVELY to flatten Obito. He was attacking with killing intent and it failed.


just like he had killing intent against the juubi? he was trying to restrain juubito, just like he did with the juubi. you cant validate your point so just drop it.


> Why can't Obito make moons? He's in full control of the Jyubi.


he isnt rikudo sennin. theres your answer.


> You really need some glasses or something. We see an explosion from BM Minato and BSM Naruto's Rasengan completely exploding in the BOTTOM MIDDLE PANEL. You just don't want to admit it.


i already said that this nonsense would get ignored in my previous post. you are just being dishonest, so concession accepted.



> The manga puts this bluntly: Madara will control Hashirama's Sennin Power to fight Obito. Your claim is false and goes against what is actually said. I mean dear god, I quoted WORD FOR FUCKING WORD and yet you STILL...


you must have not understood what you were reading? the manga just says hashiramas sennin power>juubito. it doesnt make a reference to madara specifically with the power.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> One more time: does Madara have access to 100% Kurama ITT?




Oh, sorry, didn't see this.

No, he doesn't.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 10, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> correction. the manga says that hashiramas power can defeat obito. it didnt say madara+hashiramas sennin power>obito.


Word. For. Word.

Madara: Its only a matter of time now. I'd say roughly...fifteen minutes. Before that happens, *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.


> well you read it wrong.


Madara: Its only a matter of time now. I'd say roughly...fifteen minutes. Before that happens, *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.

More like you're reading it wrong and ignore Hashirama said that Obito was stronger than him. You're so deep in denial its not even funny.


> just like he had killing intent against the juubi? he was trying to restrain juubito, just like he did with the juubi. you cant validate your point so just drop it.


He was trying to kill Obito. He stomped him flat and it did nothing. And guess what, Myojinmon is a Senjutsu, Obito's weakness...but Obito shattered it like nothing.


> he isnt rikudo sennin. theres your answer.


Even though Obito is dicking around, not even using half his power, and was called the exact same thing as Hagomuro?


> i already said that this nonsense would get ignored in my previous post. you are just being dishonest, so concession accepted.


The only dishonesty is from you. The explosion was in the middle panel, not the far right. You either don't want to acknowledge that hey, you might be wrong, or that you just want to continue to claim Hashirama is stronger than that Kurama + Senjutsu powered giant Rasengan.



> you must have not understood what you were reading? the manga just says hashiramas sennin power>juubito. it doesnt make a reference to madara specifically with the power.


Madara: Its only a matter of time now. I'd say roughly...fifteen minutes. Before that happens, *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.
The only misunderstanding is on your end. Madara specifically said he'll be using Hashirama's Sennin Powers, not Hashirama himself.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Word. For. Word.
> 
> Madara: Its only a matter of time now. I'd say roughly...fifteen minutes. Before that happens, *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.


this is irrelevant and it only supports my position. think of it the same way as tobirama using minatos hirashin to save the alliance. the wielder is irrelevant. madara didnt say what you're implying. he only said that hashiramas sennin power is a factor in stopping obito.


> Madara: Its only a matter of time now. I'd say roughly...fifteen minutes. Before that happens, *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.


refer to the 1st part of my post.


> More like you're reading it wrong and ignore Hashirama said that Obito was stronger than him. You're so deep in denial its not even funny.


a few chapters after thats stated:
-senjutsu negates onmyoudon and is the weakness of the juubi jin.
-hashiramas sennin power is stated to be>juubito.


> He was trying to kill Obito. He stomped him flat and it did nothing. And guess what, Myojinmon is a Senjutsu, Obito's weakness...but Obito shattered it like nothing.


you cant prove that hashirama was trying to kill obito. ill just leave it at that.


> Even though Obito is dicking around,* not even using half his power,* and was called the exact same thing as Hagomuro?


you cant validate the bold. stop claiming things that you cant prove. its sickening. juubito is the same as RS. they were both juubi jinchurikis. thats the only way they are similar. power wise, they arent even comparable.


> The only dishonesty is from you. The explosion was in the middle panel, not the far right. You either don't want to acknowledge that hey, you might be wrong, or that you just want to continue to claim Hashirama is stronger than that Kurama + Senjutsu powered giant Rasengan.


i already said that this will be ignored. i already accepted your concession on this part.



> Madara: Its only a matter of time now. I'd say roughly...fifteen minutes. Before that happens, *I'll* stop Obito and take his place using your Sennin Powers.
> The only misunderstanding is on your end. Madara specifically said he'll be using Hashirama's Sennin Powers, not Hashirama himself.


completely irrelevant. this was already disproved.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 10, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is irrelevant and it only supports my position. think of it the same way as tobirama using minatos hirashin to save the alliance. the wielder is irrelevant. madara didnt say what you're implying. he only said that hashiramas sennin power is a factor in stopping obito.


Your analogy fails. Tobirama and minato are _both_ Hiraishin users while Hashirama is a Senjutsu user and Madara isn't. Madara explicitly said he'll be using Hashirama's Sennin Powers, alluding that he was going to take them for his own, or _turning Hashirama into a mindless puppet connected to his will_ through the chakra disruption blade. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Madara is going to use Hashirama as his own Six Path of Pain.




> a few chapters after thats stated:
> -senjutsu negates onmyoudon and is the weakness of the juubi jin.
> -hashiramas sennin power is stated to be>juubito.


1. Senjutsu itself isn't an automatic win against Obito.
2. No, its Madara using Hashirama's power is what he hopes will be enough for him to take the place of Obito as the Jyubi Jin.

Still doesn't change the fact that Hashirama HIMSELF said Obito was stronger than he was.


> you cant prove that hashirama was trying to kill obito. ill just leave it at that.


Other than the threat posed by Obito, yeah I can. Hashirama has no problem attacking with killing intent. And guess what, a Senjutsu fuin used offensively should have killed Obito shouldn't it? Yet Obito fodderized it.


> you cant validate the bold. stop claiming things that you cant prove. its sickening. juubito is the same as RS. they were both juubi jinchurikis. thats the only way they are similar. power wise, they arent even comparable.


Other than him letting attacks hit him when he clearly could avoid or just tank them to put a sense of despair into the Alliance. Its commonly agreed he isn't even going all our. Only you think so since you want Hashirama to have some sort of chance against him.


> i already said that this will be ignored. i already accepted your concession on this part.


Bottom middle panel is the full explosion. Just please accept that you're wrong?



> completely irrelevant. this was already disproved.


The manga is quite clearly on my side. Your analogy fails big time.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Your analogy fails. Tobirama and minato are _both_ Hiraishin users while Hashirama is a Senjutsu user and Madara isn't. Madara explicitly said he'll be using Hashirama's Sennin Powers, alluding that he was going to take them for his own, or _turning Hashirama into a mindless puppet connected to his will_ through the chakra disruption blade. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Madara is going to use Hashirama as his own Six Path of Pain.


both tobirama and minato being hiraishin users is irrelevant. madara said nothing about combining hashiramas sennin power with his arsenal. he will use it as a stand alone power.




> 1. Senjutsu itself isn't an automatic win against Obito.
> 2. No, its Madara using Hashirama's power is what he hopes will be enough for him to take the place of Obito as the Jyubi Jin.
> 
> Still doesn't change the fact that Hashirama HIMSELF said Obito was stronger than he was.


1. never said it was.
2. this was disproved already.


> Other than the threat posed by Obito, yeah I can. Hashirama has no problem attacking with killing intent. And guess what, a Senjutsu fuin used offensively should have killed Obito shouldn't it? Yet Obito fodderized it.


so in other words, you cant prove it with panel? ok then.


> Other than him letting attacks hit him when he clearly could avoid or just tank them to put a sense of despair into the Alliance. Its commonly agreed he isn't even going all our. Only you think so since you want Hashirama to have some sort of chance against him.


i dont care about whats commonly agreed. i only care about panel. what you just said is a prime example of the logical fallacy, Argumentum Ad Populum.
you cant prove that juubito isnt using his full power. that is something that can only be validated by feats or direct statements that a character is holding back.


> Bottom middle panel is the full explosion. Just please accept that you're wrong?


im just going to start deleting this nonsense out of your posts when i respond. you are just wating my time with this. you were already proven wrong, so now you're just lying. move on.



> The manga is quite clearly on my side. Your analogy fails big time.


yeahh....sure it is.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> One more time: does Madara have access to 100% Kurama ITT?



Would it really make a difference? Their opponent has the Juubi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Oh, sorry, didn't see this.
> 
> No, he doesn't.





Nikushimi said:


> Would it really make a difference? Their opponent has the Juubi.



I was going to suggest that Madara would use Susanoo coated Kurama with SM Hashirama within Susanoo as well. Hashirama's role being to supply natural energy to turn the whole thing into Senjutsu, whilst having his Mokuton support too.

Though it isn't a stretch to assume that Madara and Hashirama could pull of something like that by Madara coating Mokujin with Susanoo. Though with this combination, they'd lack the Senjutsu sword-Bijuu Dama.


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## Trojan (Oct 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I was going to suggest that Madara would use Susanoo coated Kurama with* SM Hashirama within Susanoo as well. Hashirama's role being to supply natural energy to turn the whole thing into Senjutsu, whilst having his Mokuton support too.*
> 
> Though it isn't a stretch to assume that Madara and Hashirama could pull of something like that by Madara coating Mokujin with Susanoo. Though with this combination, they'd lack the Senjutsu sword-Bijuu Dama.



Hashirama can do that?


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## Ennoia (Oct 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You yourself said Hashirama is a sensor. He sensed the sheer volume of chakra that was given to the Allied Shinobi Forces and directly compared THAT to his own.
> 
> Hashirama: So he's sharing his chakra with all the other shinobi! That's an impressive *volume* of chakra...comparable to mine in fact!
> 
> ...



Almost everything you have said has already been addressed and you have ignored a lot of what I said already, so your just saying the same thing back to me repeatedly. The only things I need to add are:

You said Naruto's chakra dosent give a boost but Sasuke only used Susanoo with legs when he had Naruto's shroud so logically he would be able to use PS when in direct contact with Naruto.

You didnt say Madara probably wouldnt succeed you outright said he would lose. Nothing about his track record says he would lose unless you are talking about the future plot. Dead Madara has no control over what happens while he is dead and no one thought Nagato would turn.

And finally Katsuya cannot give them back their own chakra because that would imply that she took it to start out with.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I was going to suggest that Madara would use Susanoo coated Kurama with SM Hashirama within Susanoo as well. Hashirama's role being to supply natural energy to turn the whole thing into Senjutsu, whilst having his Mokuton support too.
> 
> Though it isn't a stretch to assume that Madara and Hashirama could pull of something like that by Madara coating Mokujin with Susanoo. Though with this combination, they'd lack the Senjutsu sword-Bijuu Dama.



I just don't see the Kyuubi making that much of a difference, but I guess any amount of firepower helps.

I'm with Elia on this one, though; it would be a stretch to say that Hashirama can Senjutsu-fy a Susano'o-armored Kyuubi, given that we've never seen him do anything like that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 10, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> both tobirama and minato being hiraishin users is irrelevant. madara said nothing about combining hashiramas sennin power with his arsenal. he will use it as a stand alone power.


Its not irrelevant. Your analogy depended on Tobirama using Minato's Hirashin the latest chapter, correct? But both Tobirama and Minato were Hiraishin users. Madara however isn't a Senjutsu user, he specifically said he'll be USING Hashirama's Sennin power. Which means he's either going to control him via a Chakra Rod, or take it for his own. 




> 1. never said it was.
> 2. this was disproved already.


1. You act like it is.
2. You haven't dis-proven anything and you are actively ignoring what the manga actually said and shown. When Hashirama himself says that Obito is stronger than him, you say his Sage Mode power is stronger than Obito. I pull out the panel, word for word on what is said. You continue to assert that means Hashirama alone can defeat Obito when its clear Madara will be using Hashirama's power on top of his own.


> so in other words, you cant prove it with panel? ok then.


If he wasn't attacking with killing intent, why did he continually pile on the torii so much the ground cratered?


> i dont care about whats commonly agreed. i only care about panel. what you just said is a prime example of the logical fallacy, Argumentum Ad Populum.
> you cant prove that juubito isnt using his full power. that is something that can only be validated by feats or direct statements that a character is holding back.


In other words, even if other people point out that Obito isn't even using half his strength and has been toying with the Alliance, you wouldn't accept it? And he isn't using his full power, if he was the fight would have been over before Naruto and Sasuke leveled up enough to fight him (being able to track him when they couldn't before, Naruto getting BSM, Sasuke getting PS).
im just going to start deleting this nonsense out of your posts when i respond. you are just wating my time with this. you were already proven 





> wrong, so now you're just lying. move on.


Then what is that explosion in the bottom middle panel then?



> yeahh....sure it is.


You realize you're the only one arguing this point where others, not including myself, have pointed out it's wrong?



Ennoia said:


> You said Naruto's chakra dosent give a boost but Sasuke only used Susanoo with legs when he had Naruto's shroud so logically he would be able to use PS when in direct contact with Naruto.


Unless Naruto directly transfers his chakra to others, they don't get a boost. Merely immersing them won't work, he has to literally put the chakra into the user. Sasuke should have been able to make Susano'o with legs anyway, its a trait of the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, its just the size of his Complete Susano'o which increased (as well as its power) due to Naruto's chakra boosting him before. Now? Sasuke's _lost_ the version 1 cloak and is only standing in the aura that Naruto created, thus like Gai and Kakashi he won't get an power boost. Instead, Sasuke is creating the Perfect Susano'o on his own, giving him the same power as EMS Madara.


> You didnt say Madara probably wouldnt succeed you outright said he would lose. Nothing about his track record says he would lose unless you are talking about the future plot. Dead Madara has no control over what happens while he is dead and no one thought Nagato would turn.


Madara had _direct control over Obito_, yet still failed to be resurrected to become the Jyubi Jinchuriki. Obito became the Jin instead. That's the failure I was emphasizing.


> And finally Katsuya cannot give them back their own chakra because that would imply that she took it to start out with.


Katsuyu can give them her OWN chakra if they lose it though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 11, 2013)

Elia said:


> Hashirama can do that?





Nikushimi said:


> I just don't see the Kyuubi making that much of a difference, but I guess any amount of firepower helps.
> 
> I'm with Elia on this one, though; it would be a stretch to say that Hashirama can Senjutsu-fy a Susano'o-armored Kyuubi, given that we've never seen him do anything like that.



It'd just be Hashirama releasing his own chakra whilst he is within Susanoo, just like what Juugo's doing. Hashirama redecorated the Uchiha shrine just by releasing his chakra. So releasing it is no problem for Hashirama. Madara's chakra can respond to it, hence he's trying to obtain Hashirama's SM.


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## Jagger (Oct 11, 2013)

The problem with this match is that most of peopel assume Juubito wins because he have the Juubi inside of him. Juubito is barely going to the offensive, the only time he did in a quick sucession and easily overwhelmed all the Hokage without problems along with Naruto and Sasuke. Now with he's in control with his body, he can do much better. 

The problem comes if if he takes this fight seriously or just dicks around for too long.


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## Inferno (Oct 12, 2013)

Hashirama's the only one with SM, so isn't he the only one who can harm Obito?


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