# Current Aizen runs One Piece



## Sevit (Sep 8, 2015)

No seals/chair, 1v1 to top.


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## Blαck (Sep 8, 2015)

So he'd pretty much have his monster Aizen feats 

I'd stop him at the C3 but then again I can't remember what his blast was calc'd at


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 8, 2015)

He was gonna shoot down the soul kings palace and can annihilate most of the verse just by them getting close to him. Only people who have even a shot are WB, Gura Teach and maybe Akainu


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## Redemption X (Sep 8, 2015)

Urahara said that current Aizen is stronger than the one that fought Ichigo. He was also going to brought down soul king's palace with his reiatsu only. I think its fair to put both his dc and durability at small country level considering difference in power between him and Yama. Put Kyouka Suigetsu and regeneration on top of that and even Whitebeard would be in serious trouble.


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## Blαck (Sep 8, 2015)

The reiatsu bringing down the palace thing seems wonky but I'm sure Sables or someone will explain why it's legit. But in the mean time what was his durability? Unless we're scaling him to Kenpachi at least for the time being? 

If we are then yeah only Akainu and up have a chance.


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## Brightsteel (Sep 8, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He was gonna shoot down the soul kings palace and can annihilate most of the verse just by them getting close to him. Only people who have even a shot are WB, Gura Teach and maybe Akainu



How would Gura Teach have a chance, when Akainu wouldn't? Even with Whitebeard's fruit and his own with his crew as back up, he chose to run when he found out Akainu was coming to punk his ass.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 8, 2015)

I quit following Bleach's dumbass use of reaitsu anymore, The whole "My power is dimensions apart from yours literally which is why you can't sense me and why I can kill you just be being close to me" was dumb enough.


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## KamiKira (Sep 8, 2015)

Kyoka suigetsu trolls


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## Byrd (Sep 8, 2015)

> How would Gura Teach have a chance, when Akainu wouldn't? Even with Whitebeard's fruit and his own with his crew as back up, he chose to run when he found out Akainu was coming to punk his ass.



Wasn't that before the time-skip  i cant remember


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## Brightsteel (Sep 8, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Wasn't that before the time-skip  i cant remember



I thought it was sometime afterwards, I could be wrong tho.


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## Blαck (Sep 8, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Wasn't that before the time-skip  i cant remember



A bit before the time skip I think.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 8, 2015)

Keep forgetting there even was a timeskip I mean ichigo was only out of commission for like what less than a year?


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## Imagine (Sep 8, 2015)

Teach ran because not only was Akainu there but also the other admirals, Shanks and his crew, Sengoku, Garp and the remains of the WB pirates and allies. 

Fuck that noise yo 

By feats he's casually city+ with the gura but he could be island level pre timeskip with it.


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## Brightsteel (Sep 8, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Teach ran because not only was Akainu there but also the other admirals, Shanks and his crew, Sengoku, Garp and the remains of the WB pirates and allies.
> 
> Fuck that noise yo
> 
> By feats he's casually city+ with the gura but he could be island level pre timeskip with it.



The other admirals weren't there when Blackbeard attempted to get a Marine Ship by trading in Bonnie, only Akainu was sent.


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## Imagine (Sep 8, 2015)

Oh I thought you guys were talking about MF.


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## Zern227 (Sep 8, 2015)

Why wouldn't Teach run? He in no position to fight, especially for an opportunist. If he did fight he'd just be risking the lives of his entire crew.


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## Regicide (Sep 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> I can't even follow Bleach's dumbass use of reaitsu anymore, The whole "My power is dimensions apart from yours literally which is why you can't sense me and why I can kill you just be being close to me" was dumb enough.


That's.. actually pretty straightforward though.

It basically boils down to the capabilities of one character being high enough it doesn't register on the scale for everyone else.

The mention of dimensions is an analogy to help put the difference in strength in perspective, not a literal description of what happened. What's difficult to get?


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## Tom Servo (Sep 8, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> The other admirals weren't there when Blackbeard attempted to get a Marine Ship by trading in Bonnie, only Akainu was sent.



Further proof that even with WB's fruit BB is just a fuckin poser.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> That's.. actually pretty straightforward though.
> 
> It basically boils down to the capabilities of one character being high enough it doesn't register on the scale for everyone else.
> 
> The mention of dimensions is an analogy to help put the difference in strength in perspective, not a literal description of what happened. What's difficult to get?



The fact that the dimensional analogy is being put further into a literal term with Aizen destroying the cleaning train thing which apparently exists in its own realm of reasoning unaffected by reaitsu.

Why wouldn't I get it. I just said I stopped following the whole logic of reaitsu that Kubo was trying to build up over the years. Its not that i'm not able to follow it, I just can't I won't follow the logic behind it because there is none.


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## Blαck (Sep 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Further proof that even with WB's fruit BB is just a fuckin poser.



I wouldn't wanna fight a guy who took a two piece from wb and survived either.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 8, 2015)

Blαck said:


> I wouldn't wanna fight a guy who took a two piece from wb and survived either.



He has two of the most ridiculous DF powers at his disposal and shichibukai level crew mates to back him up. WB woulda had none of that shit and would go in solo.


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## Regicide (Sep 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> The fact that the dimensional analogy is being put further into a literal term with Aizen destroying the cleaning train thing which apparently exists in its own realm of reasoning unaffected by reaitsu.
> 
> Why wouldn't I get it. I just said I stopped following the whole logic of reaitsu that Kubo was trying to build up over the years. Its not that i'm not able to follow it, I just can't I won't follow the logic behind it because there is none.


Your refusal to acknowledge the existence of something doesn't really mean it isn't actually there. 

The cleaner isn't something that shinigami can interfere with, and paraphrasing Gin here, since "that shit's fucking weird". Whatever the reason, it doesn't operate on the same logic.

Aizen doesn't give a shit because he's not limited to the same set of rules everyone else is.

Still doesn't mean he's literally a higher dimensional being or whatever nonsense.

On topic, Aizen can more or less hang with OP's top tiers.


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## Imagine (Sep 8, 2015)

Teach doesn't do things without reason. Fighting Akainu at that time and place had no purpose


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## Blαck (Sep 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> He has two of the most ridiculous DF powers at his disposal and shichibukai level crew mates to back him up. WB woulda had none of that shit and would go in solo.



Yeah but his Yami yami only works on the body of the user so if Akainu runs in there that's his ass, and as for his crew? Shichibukai level? Maybe Shiryu, Avalo and Cat but there rest would get rocked.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 8, 2015)

he clears


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## Tom Servo (Sep 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Your refusal to acknowledge the existence of something doesn't really mean it isn't actually there.
> 
> The cleaner isn't something that shinigami can interfere with, and paraphrasing Gin here, since "that shit's fucking weird". Whatever the reason, it doesn't operate on the same logic.
> 
> ...



I didn't say he wouldn't, my main point was that Kubo's own source of logic is flawed because he very clearly didn't think this shit through.



Imagine said:


> Teach doesn't do things without reason. Fighting Akainu at that time and place had no purpose



Taking one of the most powerful Marines out of commission sure seems like a fantastic reason to take him out. 



Blαck said:


> Yeah but his Yami yami only works on the body of the user so if Akainu runs in there that's his ass, and as for his crew? Shichibukai level? Maybe Shiryu, Avalo and Cat but there rest would get rocked.


The ones from the level 6 prison at the very least should be. The others were able to tank a slam from sumo dumpling head so they most certainly would have been helpful.


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## Regicide (Sep 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> I didn't say he wouldn't, my main point was that Kubo's own source of logic is flawed because he very clearly didn't think this shit through.


Based on what?

You haven't actually provided a real reason why this is supposed poorly thought out.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Based on what?
> 
> You haven't actually provided a real reason why this is supposed poorly thought out.



1. It's Kubo

2. The entire system of reaitsu and reaitsu crush has been completely on and off since the whole Soul Society fiasco. Being so powerful that it crushes you yet you can't feel doesn't make much sense. Atleast with HxH they parallel the experience with being caught up in a blizzard and thus their bodies would go into shock and then die due to over exposure.


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## Regicide (Sep 8, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. It's Kubo


Yes, it's Kubo.

Kubo bullshit isn't that difficult to understand.


Tom Servo said:


> Being so powerful that it crushes you yet you can't feel doesn't make much sense.


Reiatsu crush requires someone to actively exert their power on a given individual/area, it's not passive.

Never mind that being able to feel the effects of something isn't even the same thing as being able to detect that given thing. Try again.


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## Regicide (Sep 8, 2015)

Anyways, it's debatable as to whether or not Aizen can actually put down OP's higher ups. Or at least the logia fuckers, not sure where we stand on straight up durability.

I know the likes of Akainu have taken quakes from Whitebeard and whatnot.

On the other hand, considering he's regen'd from Mugetsu, it's questionable whether or not Aizen's getting put down here either.


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## Sablés (Sep 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> it's not passive.



uh...






Doesn't really matter though when its a staple these guys prevent fucking over shit passively by controlling their reiatsu if they choose to.


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## Regicide (Sep 8, 2015)

Liquid said:


> uh...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That ain't reiatsu crush though 

I mean the point still stands either way

Like, just because you can feel your skin heating up in the sun doesn't mean you can sense UV radiation


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## Sherlōck (Sep 8, 2015)

Kizaru probably ain't going to be able to take him out. Aokiji & especially Akainu can tire him out & secure a win.

He gives Whitebeard a high difficulty fight but ultimately loses.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 9, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Kizaru probably ain't going to be able to take him out. Aokiji & especially Akainu can tire him out & secure a win.
> 
> He gives Whitebeard a high difficulty fight but ultimately loses.



What? how do they tire out a guy who could regen from a country level attack splitting him in half, and then Aizen only got stronger after that. He is nearly as fast as them and has more DC and better dura and regen. He blows Old WB up with fragor or something. Aizen is literally the highest god tier in bleach right now.


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## Regicide (Sep 9, 2015)

He can't exactly blow Whitebeard up because they have roughly comparable durability.

At least not in one go.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 9, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Yes, it's Kubo.
> 
> Kubo bullshit isn't that difficult to understand.
> Reiatsu crush requires someone to actively exert their power on a given individual/area, it's not passive.
> ...



I'm in a passable mood so i'll give you the luxury of re-reading my argument again properly because clearly you haven't been paying attention.


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## Sherlōck (Sep 9, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> What? how do they tire out a guy who could regen from a country level attack splitting him in half



By having better stamina & attack capable of one shoting him? Regen can only take you so far. He will run out of gas soon enough.



> and then Aizen only got stronger after that. He is nearly as fast as them and has *more DC and better dura and regen*.



He doesn't.



> He blows Old WB up with fragor or something. Aizen is literally the highest god tier in bleach right now.



Doesn't matter if he his God or paper salesman in his verse.

WB can dish out successive quakes. While Frogor *maybe *as strong there is no indication he can spam those. 

Aizen ain't winning against WB.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 9, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> By having better stamina & attack capable of one shoting him? Regen can only take you so far. He will run out of gas soon enough.
> 
> 
> He doesn't.
> ...



how does he run out of gas? hes going to regen from everything they throw at him. 

Why is Fragor not spammable? he used the attack really fast without charging up or anything and it was super casual. plus it damaged Dangai Ichigo pretty bad so it should be on the level of Yamas bankai or at least close.
Aizen can also fly and make it harder for WB quakes to hit him while he bombs him or just KS gg


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## Regicide (Sep 9, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> I'm in a passable mood so i'll give you the luxury of re-reading my argument again properly because clearly you haven't been paying attention.


Your problem comes from reiatsu crush nonsense

Which is something completely unrelated to how fuckers can't detect any reiatsu from Aizen

The whole thing is a non-sequitur 


Sherlōck said:


> By having better stamina & attack capable of one shoting him?


Uhh

Can't exactly call it one-shotting if Aizen's regen'd from comparable shit


Sherlōck said:


> WB can dish out successive quakes. While Frogor *maybe *as strong there is no indication he can spam those.


Why wouldn't he be able to?

Context doesn't suggest it was particularly strenuous for him, if at all

Plus lack of any apparent charge time involved


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Going to clear something up here. Aizen's immortality . He's just flat out un-killable by everything in Bleach standards cuz Hogyoku's a  , kind of why you also have Mayuri with all his poisons/mindfuckery or whatever unconventional ability any shinigami has, being incapable of doing anything to him. Which is one of the 2 reasons he's likely to clear:

1) Stats wise,  Aizen's about even or somewhat below OP top-tiers but he'll take them down with enough hits. The reverse just isn't happening.

2) Kyouka Suigetsu is a bitch nobody's going to be able to counter so he can just sit back and watch them tire themselves out.


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## Blαck (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Going to clear something up here. Aizen's immortality . He's just flat out un-killable by everything in Bleach standards cuz Hogyoku's a  , kind of why you also have Mayuri with all his poisons/mindfuckery or whatever unconventional ability any shinigami has, being incapable of doing anything to him. Which is one of the 2 reasons he's likely to clear:
> 
> 1) Stats wise,  Aizen's about even or somewhat below OP top-tiers but he'll take them down with enough hits. The reverse just isn't happening.
> 
> 2) Kyouka Suigetsu is a bitch nobody's going to be able to counter so he can just sit back and watch them tire themselves out.



Wasn't there an argument for CoO getting folks out of KS or at the very least helping them locate Aizen whilst in it?


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## Sherlōck (Sep 9, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> how does he run out of gas? hes going to regen from everything they throw at him.



Are people really stupid & think it doesn't take energy or stamina to regen & it just happens out of thin air? 



> Why is Fragor not spammable? he used the attack really fast without charging up or anything and it was super casual.



Cause it wasn't shown as spammable? He used that attack how many times? One or two times? Once he almost used all of its head but he was desperately trying to kill Ichigo. Nothing says its spammable.



> plus it damaged Dangai Ichigo pretty bad so it should be on the level of Yamas bankai or at least close.



Depends on where you put Yama's bankai attack in relation to Fragor. 



> Aizen can also fly and make it harder for WB quakes to hit him while he bombs him or just KS gg



Nope. WB's attack can hit character that is kilometers away from him in sky. Plus he has COO & better speed.


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Blαck said:


> Wasn't there an argument for CoO getting folks out of KS or at the very least helping them locate Aizen whilst in it?



Nope, had that debate with Fujita years ago and the consensus was that CoO has shown nothing that  indicates it can greatly mitigate all 5 senses being thrown into whack (it can barely multi-task between fighting 2 guys at once). Doesn't help that Aizen can screw with their perception of time at that.

They also can't locate anything because reiatsu sense has never worked KS either.


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## Blαck (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Nope, had that debate with Fujita years ago and the consensus was that CoO has shown nothing that  indicates it can greatly mitigate all 5 senses being thrown into whack (it can barely multi-task between fighting 2 guys at once). Doesn't help that Aizen can screw with their perception of time at that.
> 
> *They also can't locate anything because reiatsu sense has never worked KS either*.



Didn't Yama do this though? When he grabbed Aizen's blade (or was it his arm?)

Then again, Aizen would probably stick fragor's rather than CQC


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## Sherlōck (Sep 9, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Can't exactly call it one-shotting if Aizen's regen'd from comparable shit



Not my point. Not saying he can't regen but saying he will have to regen from attacks that can one shit him which will be strenuous for him. He can't just reply the process over & over again.



> Why wouldn't he be able to?
> 
> Context doesn't suggest it was particularly strenuous for him, if at all
> 
> Plus lack of any apparent charge time involved



Charge time & once used attack doesn't qualify it to be a spammable attack.



Liquid said:


> Going to clear something up here. Aizen's immortality . He's just flat out un-killable by everything in Bleach standards cuz Hogyoku's a  , kind of why you also have Mayuri with all his poisons/mindfuckery or whatever unconventional ability any shinigami has, being incapable of doing anything to him. Which is one of the 2 reasons he's likely to clear:



Hogyoku will refuse him once he gets weakened enough. 



> 1) Stats wise,  Aizen's about even or somewhat below OP top-tiers but he'll take them down with enough hits.The reverse just isn't happening.



Um,no.



> 2) Kyouka Suigetsu is a bitch nobody's going to be able to counter so he can just sit back and watch them tire themselves out.



Monster Aizen hasn't shown to be able to use  Kyouka Suigetsu. Even if he can its not a problem for OP top tiers as they can be just blind & see what is going on.


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Blαck said:


> Didn't Yama do this though? When he grabbed Aizen's blade (or was it his arm?)
> 
> Then again, Aizen would probably stick fragor's rather than CQC



Yeah he did. Unohana did too (didn't realize it was an illusion and thought it was a fake body instead so she wasn't spot on either) and she's got thousands of years medical/combat experience under her belt and it still took her days to make an incorrect assumption.

 Yama  needed to have Aizen stab him and be at close proximity to tell the difference and that was with full knowledge and some major CIS for Aizen stabbing him in the stomach than through his skull. Think its pretty clear why none of this is viable for a CoO user in combat


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Hogyoku will refuse him once he gets weakened enough.



Wrong, it refused him because that's what he wished for subconsciously





> Um,no.



Um yeah. He's Island-level+, if not straight up Small-Country level. His "regen" is also better than  anything OP can dish out on a miniature scale.





> Monster Aizen hasn't shown to be able to use  Kyouka Suigetsu.



Prove it




> Even if he can its not a problem for  OP top tiers as they can be just blind & see what is going on.



Yeah because they'll somehow possess the foresight to know they're under an illusion in the first place. Fighting blind also worked well for the shinigami who can passively sense reiatsu (see Blind Ichigo vs Ginjou) and visualize it in the shape of the individual.  



Oh wait


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## Blαck (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Yeah he did. Unohana did too (didn't realize it was an illusion and thought it was a fake body instead so she wasn't spot on either) and she's got thousands of years medical/combat experience under her belt and it still took her days to make an incorrect assumption.
> 
> Yama  needed to have Aizen stab him and be at close proximity to tell the difference and that was with full knowledge and some major CIS for Aizen stabbing him in the stomach than through his skull. Think its pretty clear why none of this is viable for a CoO user in combat



You win this round Aizen


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## Tom Servo (Sep 9, 2015)

What's Aizen's dc at again? Still megatons or does he get Yama bankai scaling?


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## Blαck (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Prove it



He didn't use it against Ichigo though, right?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 9, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> What's Aizen's dc at again? Still megatons or does he get Yama bankai scaling?



He gets Bankai scaling for his serious/most powerful attacks. he's far above casual Kenny whose in triple digit Gigatons with Shikai and eyepatch on. 

Aizen also showed he was able to use KS or something on Yhwach so why wouldnt monster Aizen be able to?


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## Tom Servo (Sep 9, 2015)

If he gets Yama scaling that should put him in the Teratons shouldn't it?


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Blαck said:


> He didn't use it against Ichigo though, right?



Yeah so?


1) Ichigo has never seen KS for one

2) Aizen was insistent on proving he was more powerful. Relying on illusions to save his ass is counter-intuitive and self-defeating

3) Didn't =/= Couldn't when Aizen was fucking with Yhwach earlier this arc and not a thing indicated he lost KS' power in the first place


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## Lucino (Sep 9, 2015)

Blαck said:


> He didn't use it against Ichigo though, right?



Doesn't mean he didn't have the capability to use it, considering you know his blade was still stuck to his arm.


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## Sherlōck (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Wrong, it refused him because that's what he wished for subconsciously



Wrong. That was Ichigo's assumption. Its not concrete evidence. But seriously? You are going to use what Ichigo thought of Aizen? 



> Um yeah. He's Island-level+, if not straight up Small-Country level. His "regen" is also better than  anything OP can dish out on a miniature scale.



On the other hand Admirals are straight up small country level. Regening time & time again isn't happening. Dai Funkai or getting freezed from inside out is enough to one shot him. Even if you can regen from the previous one it still will take too much of your power to be able to do anything next time. As much you want it to be Hoygokyo isn't an infinite source of energy. 



> Prove it



Don't twist my words Stables. And I don't have to prove it cause I didn't claim it. You did. Monster Aizen had a whole new set of power & shit. I won't be surprised if he couldn't use his precious illusion there.



> Yeah because they'll somehow possess the foresight to know they're under an illusion in the first place. Fighting blind also worked well for the shinigami who can passively sense reiatsu (see Blind Ichigo vs Ginjou) and visualize it in the shape of the individual.
> 
> Oh wait



Unfortunately COO isn't same as reatsu sensing. You can use COO on a fodder human. But unless that fodder human has reatsu shinigamis won't be able to sense him. Reatsu sensing depends on it. COO doesn't.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 9, 2015)

Does any of thsi actually matter?

Can't we agree he makes it up to the Admirals or atleast people with ridiculous hax to counter his crap?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 9, 2015)

Lol at admirals 1 shotting him when they dont get small country for DC anyway and Aizen survived and regen'd from Mugetsu which gets Yama's teratons from bankai


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Wrong. That was Ichigo's assumption. Its not concrete evidence. But seriously? You are going to use what Ichigo thought of Aizen?



Yeah because its quite implicit his assumption was the correct one. Kinda evidenced by:

-Ichigo figuring out Gin using the same method
-Kisuke's lack of a response
-The fact that Aizen was still immortal meaning the HG was still working for him
-The DB outright proving Ichigo's claims true




> On the other hand Admirals are straight up small country level. Regening time & time again isn't happening. Dai Funkai or getting freezed from inside out is enough to one shot him. Even if you can regen from the previous one it still will take too much of your power to be able to do anything next time.



False. Whitebeard's quakes put Akainu out of the game in 2 hits and for a significant period of time. This means Sakazuki's endurance is at a stage where small-country level isn't putting him down in one blow. Doesn't mean he's  invulnerable to island-level attacks, it just makes this a serious battle of attrition and Aizen's got al the time in the world. Again, that's assuming Aizen isn't Small-country level himself and doesn't nuke the shit out of the opposition.



> As much you want it to be Hoygokyo isn't an infinite source of energy.



Considering scrubs like Pre-RR Renji can fight for days and Isshin can run months on end on reiatsu draining machines, stamina isn't much of a problem for Aizen. Also helps that Mugetsu is tiers above anything Yamamoto is capable of and his DC is higher than WB's to start with



> Don't twist my words Stables. And I don't have to prove it cause I didn't claim it. You did. Monster Aizen had a whole new set of power & shit. I won't be surprised if he couldn't use his precious illusion there.



How does gaining new power equate to losing the old? If you're not implylng that Aizen couldn't use KS, you actually had no argument here in the first place because you made it a matter of him choosing not to a.k.a CIS.





> Unfortunately COO isn't same as reatsu sensing. You can use COO on a fodder human. But unless that fodder human has reatsu shinigamis won't be able to sense him. Reatsu sensing depends on it. COO doesn't.



Incorrect example. Everything in Bleach has reiatsu, humans do too but theirs is simply low-level.

Furthermore, CoO not being dependent on detecting energy signatures doesn't help advocate that it would find Aizen in KS unless you're able to explain what precisely CoO scans cause Aizen disguises both physical and spiritual presence, not sure what's left. Either way, Good luck with Oda's vague as hell explanations of Haki


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## Blαck (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Yeah so?
> 
> 
> 1) Ichigo has never seen KS for one
> ...


sheesh, didn't say he couldn't use it, was asking if he did


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

blk pls, just cuz i dont use emotes doesn't mean I'm srs. Das just debate mode


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## Catalyst75 (Sep 9, 2015)

Redemption X said:


> Urahara said that current Aizen is stronger than the one that fought Ichigo. He was also going to brought down soul king's palace with his reiatsu only. I think its fair to put both his dc and durability at small country level considering difference in power between him and Yama. Put Kyouka Suigetsu and regeneration on top of that and even Whitebeard would be in serious trouble.



Technically speaking, Urahara was lying by down-playing the actual level of Aizen's power.  All the Shinigami in the area could still sense Aizen's reiatsu, whereas his first Hogyoku form alone was already imperceptible to the Shinigami.  

"Deicide" only established the levels of reiatsu and how high it can go.  "The Final Blood War" is showing us what exactly can be done with immensely powerful reiatsu, and no one has reached reiatsu levels that are imperceptible to Shinigami yet.  But if the Soul King's *sealed power* and its ability to hold together three worlds is any indication...


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## Sherlōck (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Yeah because its quite implicit his assumption was the correct one. Kinda evidenced by:
> 
> -Ichigo figuring out Gin using the same method
> -Kisuke's lack of a response



Those are not evidence Stables.Those are again impression about someone you fought. 



> -The fact that Aizen was still immortal meaning the HG was still working for him
> -The DB outright proving Ichigo's claims true



Or that its his residual energy or once he became immortal the situation hasn't reversed.

You can use DB but doesn't change the fact he was considerably weaker in that time. Please don't bring up your infinite source of reality wrapping energy argument.  



> False. Whitebeard's quakes put Akainu out of the game in 2 hits and for a significant period of time. This means Sakazuki's endurance is at a stage where small-country level isn't putting him down in one blow. Doesn't mean he's  invulnerable to island-level attacks,it just makes this a serious battle of attrition and Aizen's got al the time in the world. Again, that's assuming Aizen isn't Small-country level himself and doesn't nuke the shit out of the opposition.



Wrong. Akainu wasn't out of commission. He felt through the crack & came back again. If he was out of commission then he would have drowned. Not to mention he cursed WB right after he got hit second time implying he was not out of commission. 

His come back & fought10 WB commander+1 shichibukai & was still standing shows how he was still powerful & didn't lose much. After coming back he also one shot a shichibukai & a commander of WB. 

Again,Aizen doesn't have infinite energy. Stop pushing your fanfiction Stables.



> Considering scrubs like Pre-RR Renji can fight for days and Isshin can run months on end on reiatsu draining machines, stamina isn't much of a problem for Aizen. Also helps that Mugetsu is tiers above anything Yamamoto is capable of and his DC is higher than WB's to start with



Rukia can fight Renji for 10 days all she can but that level of stamina isn't going to help her against Top tiers. Isshin also isn't nearly on Aizens level & we have no idea how much energy was being drained per unit of time. 

And yes Yama's DC is higher but barely. And its only in his suicide mode when on the other hand WB can basically spam his attacks. 



> Incorrect example. Everything in Bleach has reiatsu, humans do too but theirs is simply low-level.



And those can't be detected. Point still stands. 



> Furthermore, CoO not being dependent on detecting energy signatures doesn't help advocate that it would find Aizen in KS unless you're able to explain what precisely CoO scans cause Aizen disguises both physical and spiritual presence, not sure what's left. Either way, Good luck with Oda's vague as hell explanations of Haki



As I have said it doesn't depend on reatsu so a spiritual being of same signature won't cause much or any problem against COO.They will be able to register a presence & since it doesn't rely on reatsu sensing it isn't a problem.

The only problem they will *probably *face is registering two signature. But the illusion itself is mindless. So even if they register a "spiritual being" they don't have to attack or defend themselves.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 9, 2015)

Aizen still has the Hogyoku thus is still unkillable by the SS. It was pointed out he was weakened enough by Ichigos attack for Uraharas sealing to work and because Aizen wanted to be defeated, otherwise the Hogyoku wouldve just evolved him again.

Aizen has better damn stamina than the Admirals. He far outclasses people like Ichigo who could stay in Bankai for 3 months, Renji and Rukia who fought for 10 days, and Unohana who fought Kenny for a long ass time while healing him from the wounds she inflicted. It was noted it took many Shinigami to hold back the flow in the Dangai and Isshin did it for 3 damn months. 

Even if CoO lets them sense him he can just hide himself. Not like every person whose been noted to be a good kido user in Clorox can do it easily.

also

>Yama's suicide
>Aizen not being able to replicate it fairly easy because hes transcendent and said to have surpassed the limitations of a Shinigami


----------



## Blαck (Sep 9, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Aizen has better damn stamina than the Admirals. He far outclasses people like Ichigo who could stay in Bankai for 3 months, Renji and Rukia who fought for 10 days, and Unohana who fought Kenny for a long ass time while healing him from the wounds she inflicted. It was noted it took many Shinigami to hold back the flow in the Dangai and Isshin did it for 3 damn months.



The stamina thing is weird though, I mean sure it's impressive fighting someone for days but that depends on who's fighting.I mean it sounds as if you're saying Rukia fighting renji for 10 days was just as impressive as Aokiji vs. Akainu.

Then as for Unohana vs Kenny, how long did they even fight? That fight was more symbolic and shit than anything.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 9, 2015)

It probably lasted a few days. Huge wounds dont heal in under an hour even with Unohana and Kenny was killed a lot of times. She also still had the power to fight him off despite him constantly growing in power


----------



## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Those are not evidence Stables.Those are again impression about someone you fought.



Impressions that are proven correct = Evidence



> Or that its his residual energy or once he became immortal the situation hasn't reversed.



Wrong again. Aizen's immortality just like his power all stems from the Hogyoku, if he lost control of it then he'd no longer be an immortal.What Aizen subconsciously wished for was to become weaker and it was granted; dying had nothing to do with that. Why is this all of a sudden rocket science?



> You can use DB but doesn't change the fact he was considerably weaker in that time.



What  are you going on about here? Ichigo claims to be able to understand the "feelings" of whoever he crosses blades with and he is able to accurately depict Aizen's inner thoughts* despite knowing literally fuck all about the guy or his past*. Might as well put on a blindfold at this point

Aizen was considerably weaker because that's what he desired at the time and not because of Mugetsu. End of story.




> Wrong. Akainu wasn't out of commission.



Yeah, I'm sure he was busy taking a nap for the entire duration of BB's entrance through WB's death and his comrades escape. What exactly took him so damn long then? 




> Again,Aizen doesn't have infinite energy. Stop pushing your fanfiction Stables.



Nice strawman. Do point out where exactly I stated Aizen had infinite energy, I'm waiting. Also just going to add that SS had 2 whole years to think of a way to kill the guy. Pretty sure if all they needed to do was just gank him until he ran out of stamina, they'd have done so.






> Rukia can fight Renji for 10 days all she can but that level of stamina isn't going to help her against Top tiers. Isshin also isn't nearly on Aizens level & we have no idea how much energy was being drained per unit of time.



You do realize judging stamina is dictated by scale and relative right? The reason Akainu and Aokiji lasting 10 days is considered impressive is because they're equals to boot meaning they'd expend a good deal of their strength and be constantly on the brink; in other words, where they to fight someone significantly stronger, they'd run out of energy faster and vice versa. Rukia was roughly around Renji are the same so its equally as impressive in regards to stamina alone, just on a smaller scale. In Aizen's case, his stats are on-par with the Admirals so he'll fare just as well as Kuzan and Sakazuki did each other.

While you're correct on Isshin, Ichigo was also fighting during that months  period in his  inner world. A place where physical damage taken there is reflected in the real world. Naturally, stamina will too. So yeah,forget  days,they fight for months.

But really, this is irrelevant. Aizen doesn't need to outlast the Admirals.He'll have killed them off long before because of hax.

EDIT: Er, wait. Where was it even said Renji/Rukia fought for over a week?




> And yes Yama's DC is higher but barely. And its only in his suicide mode when on the other hand WB can basically spam his attacks.



Shame that's Yama's deficit and in no way Aizen's.

Anyway, if you've decided to be as obtuse about this possible, know this game can be played both ways.  Whitebeard was half dead when he struck Akainu, prove the latter was hit with teratons worth of force compared to his "relatively" healthy self and not a pitiful sum of what the old man could muster at the time.




> And those can't be detected. Point still stands.



Nice shifting the goalpost but its,again false.

All reiatsu can be detected however those with low reiatsu and a lack of spiritual awareness _can't detect others._ Its strictly a one way street.




> As I have said it doesn't depend on reatsu so a spiritual being of same signature won't cause much or any problem against COO.They will be able to register a presence & since it doesn't rely on reatsu sensing it isn't a problem.



You dodged the entire point.

*Answer this*



> CoO not being dependent on detecting energy signatures doesn't help advocate that it would find Aizen in KS unless you're able to* explain what precisely CoO scans cause Aizen disguises both physical and spiritual presence*, not sure what's left.



What is CoO sensing then? I don't want speculation.I want facts.


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Sep 9, 2015)

Has Sherlock forgotten that current Aizen is stronger than Monster Aizen? And that Aizen, when he was going to Reiatsu crush the Royal Palace own into Seireitei, still had most of his power sealed. 

An unsealed current Aizen is featless, but we know that will be much stronger than his sealed self.


----------



## Byrd (Sep 9, 2015)

My question is how in the hell will Aizen get through Logia defenses.... he just aint gonna no sell that shit...

The Admirals durability is what they can take when their "real" bodies are hit.... it doesn't even factor in the whole logia equation... unless Aizen has something that he can negate it.... good luck with trying to damage them


----------



## B Rabbit (Sep 9, 2015)

Whitebeard didn't put Akainu down, and you know it. 

He fell down the hole, and had to climb his way back up. Nothing even indicates he was passing out when he fell down the hole, he was gritting his teeth fell down the hole, and then climb back up. If he was knocked out he would have fell in the fucking ocean.


----------



## Regicide (Sep 9, 2015)

I come back and see Dastan pulled the "but how do you know if Aizen post-hogyoku shenanigans can still use his zanpakuto powers" card


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Sep 9, 2015)

B Rabbit said:


> Whitebeard didn't put Akainu down, and you know it.
> 
> He fell down the hole, and had to climb his way back up. Nothing even indicates he was passing out when he fell down the hole, he was gritting his teeth fell down the hole, and then climb back up. If he was knocked out he would have fell in the fucking ocean.



Whitebeard was already heavily injured and sick af. Oda spent a lot of time trying to signify that


----------



## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Byrd said:


> My question is how in the hell will Aizen get through Logia defenses.... he just aint gonna no sell that shit...
> 
> The Admirals durability is what they can take when their "real" bodies are hit.... it doesn't even factor in the whole logia equation... unless Aizen has something that he can negate it.... good luck with trying to damage them



Same way its always been treated.


Nuke it past its dispersion radius.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Sep 9, 2015)

So the guy who has a powerup by sitting vs OPverse ? IDK, give him a chair and some time and he may solo Marvel .

lolKubo .


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 9, 2015)

Does Sables even read OP?


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 9, 2015)

Aizen wins against anyone individually.

OP characters aren't strong enough to bypass Aizen's regeneration and put him down whereas he has enough power to bring down dimensions casually with just an influx of his Reiatsu, that alone would crush most of the top-tiers.


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## Byrd (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Same way its always been treated.
> 
> 
> Nuke it past its dispersion radius.



Thats the problem... Aizen doesn't have the means to do that if Akainu base durability is over his DC output...

meaning his attacks are gonna be pointless... and even if they are close with DC and Durability... He still wouldn't be able to disperse him far out


----------



## Imagine (Sep 9, 2015)

I knew this thread would be awful. Just had to give it some time


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## Byrd (Sep 9, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


>



isn't Akainu durability like 1.2 teratons or some shit like that and thats when WB negated his logia shit with haki... and from what I see is that Aizen DC is somewhere in the hundreds of gigatons 

is this right... I can't remember all this shit


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## Keishin (Sep 9, 2015)

Byrd said:


> isn't Akainu durability like 1.2 teratons or some shit like that and thats when WB negated his logia shit with haki... and from what I see is that Aizen DC is somewhere in the hundreds of gigatons
> 
> is this right... I can't remember all this shit



Aizen does have up to level 90 kidos with sealing kidos and stuff. In monster form he can take powers away (tried with dangai ichigo). Not to mention he can BFR with Garganta if he uses KS, Akainu would just walk into it himself..


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## Byrd (Sep 9, 2015)

Keishin said:


> Aizen does have up to level 90 kidos with sealing kidos and stuff. In monster form he can take powers away (tried with dangai ichigo). Not to mention he can BFR with Garganta if he uses KS, Akainu would just walk into it himself..



Are you trying to imply that he can take away devil fruits 

Level 90 couldn't do anything to Ichigo... whats makes you think its gonna do something to Akainu?


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## Tom Servo (Sep 9, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Are you trying to imply that he can take away devil fruits
> 
> Level 90 couldn't do anything to Ichigo... whats makes you think its gonna do something to Akainu?




I'm getting flashbacks of the kiddo 90 being an actual black hole cuz "it can affect time and space"


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## Keishin (Sep 9, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Are you trying to imply that he can take away devil fruits
> 
> Level 90 couldn't do anything to Ichigo... whats makes you think its gonna do something to Akainu?



Maybe because the gravity is so massive that it makes things disappear completely... Imagine a small chibaku tensei that sucks the ground in but the ball of rock just disappears because of the gravity itself.


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## Byrd (Sep 9, 2015)

Didnt do shit to Ichigo tho

Akainu has higher durability


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

What do you mean 'makes things disappear completely', Keishin

So the fuck what lmao

And when was this shown again, all we saw of Kido 90 was a wall of black that did jack shit to the environment


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Sep 9, 2015)

Kubo's Black Box of Death. 

**And jobbing Box**


----------



## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Thats the problem... Aizen doesn't have the means to do that if Akainu base durability is over his DC output...



He isn't. Aizen's very arguably higher



> and even if they are close with DC and Durability... He still wouldn't be able to disperse him far out



Byrd pls









Keishin said:


> Aizen does have up to level 90 kidos with sealing kidos and stuff. In monster form he can take powers away (tried with dangai ichigo).



Aizen has and does no such thing. Where did this even come from?


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## Byrd (Sep 9, 2015)

How much higher Stables


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## Sablés (Sep 9, 2015)

Byrd said:


> How much higher Stables



A single teraton.


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## Imagine (Sep 9, 2015)

Modbat, do your stuff


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## Byrd (Sep 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> A single teraton.



I see...


----------



## Juri (Sep 9, 2015)

I'm surprised this is still open.


----------



## Sherlōck (Sep 10, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Impressions that are proven correct = Evidence



When? Provide scans. 



> Wrong again. Aizen's immortality just like his power all stems from the Hogyoku, if he lost control of it then he'd no longer be an immortal.What Aizen subconsciously wished for was to become weaker and it was granted; dying had nothing to do with that. Why is this all of a sudden rocket science?



So he wished to be weaker , get locked for 18000 years & become immortal? Sounds like a reasonable explanation of the bullshit.



> What are you going on about here? Ichigo claims to be able to understand the "feelings" of whoever he crosses blades with and he is able to accurately depict Aizen's inner thoughts* despite knowing literally fuck all about the guy or his past*. Might as well put on a blindfold at this point



I need proof proof stables. I don't care what he is feeling inside. He could be homo for Aizen for all I care.



> Aizen was considerably weaker because that's what he desired at the time and not because of Mugetsu. End of story.



As I have said great logic. Just cause Kubo feeds bullshit doesn't mean we have to eat it. 



> Yeah, I'm sure he was busy taking a nap for the entire duration of BB's entrance through WB's death and his comrades escape. What exactly took him so damn long then?



That was literally one chapter & Akainu went after Luffy whom he deemed a far serious threat as well as other Admirals. That is why Commanders fought Aakinu to save him from Aizen. That was why Admirals last attacks were directed towards Luffy. 

Nice job ignoring the rest between.



> Nice strawman. Do point out where exactly I stated Aizen had infinite energy, I'm waiting. Also just going to add that SS had 2 whole years to think of a way to kill the guy. Pretty sure if all they needed to do was just gank him until he ran out of stamina, they'd have done so.



They don't have someone on Aizens level to gank him out of Stamina except Yama & he doesn't have infinite amount of it. 



> You do realize judging stamina is dictated by scale and relative right? The reason Akainu and Aokiji lasting 10 days is considered impressive is because they're equals to boot meaning they'd expend a good deal of their strength and be constantly on the brink; in other words, where they to fight someone significantly stronger, they'd run out of energy faster and vice versa. Rukia was roughly around Renji are the same so its equally as impressive in regards to stamina alone, just on a smaller scale. In Aizen's case, his stats are on-par with the Admirals so he'll fare just as well as Kuzan and Sakazuki did each other.



That was my point Stables. Don't repeat what I was trying to say. 



> While you're correct on Isshin, Ichigo was also fighting during that months  period in his  inner world. A place where physical damage taken there is reflected in the real world. Naturally, stamina will too. So yeah,forget  days,they fight for months.



We simply don't know long long he was fighting & how long he was in training. He looked perfectly fine when he stabbed his Zanpakuto. The rest could be his training period. 



> But really, this is irrelevant. Aizen doesn't need to outlast the Admirals.He'll have killed them off long before because of hax.



Good luck with that.



> EDIT: Er, wait. Where was it even said Renji/Rukia fought for over a week?



Just an example. 



> Shame that's Yama's deficit and in no way Aizen's.



Shame that you can't use it for Aizen DC. Only Mugetsu gets the scalling from that.



> Anyway, if you've decided to be as obtuse about this possible, know this game can be played both ways. Whitebeard was half dead when he struck Akainu, prove the latter was hit with teratons worth of force compared to his "relatively" healthy self and not a pitiful sum of what the old man could muster at the time.



Whitebeard wasn't half dead. He became half dead after Akainu took out half his face. 

And did you really try to use WB's normal quake to when he mustered up his energy to deal the blow to the person who killed his son in front of him? 



> Nice shifting the goalpost but its,again false.



Goalpost is where it was all the time.



> All reiatsu can be detected however those with low reiatsu and a lack of spiritual awareness _can't detect others._ Its strictly a one way street.



Provide scan when a Shinigami,hollow can detect a normal person from hundreds of meters away. 




> You dodged the entire point.
> 
> *Answer this*
> 
> What is CoO sensing then? I don't want speculation.I want facts.



COO sensing is the power to sense all living things whether they are normal humans or strong. It can be also use to gouge ones strength & predict future. A living being in COO looks like (bottom right panel) & it also has the ability to predict moves. 

Answer me this Stables, How many times he can regenerate after getting hit by Mugetsu before finally going down? What is his limit on regeneration? What if he decided he doesn't want to be weak how would you use him in vs battle then? What is his upper limit?


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

The Admirals destroy him.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 10, 2015)

He destroys the admirals. he reached the same level of power as Final Getsuga Ichigo by fusing his being with Zanpaktou, which is why he can use KS without a sword or anything. 

About the sensing people from hundreds of meters away, literally like chapter 4 with the fucking spirit ribbons. Kubos a bs writer who made the villain too strong so he had to give some PIS/CIS way to defeat him, ergo Aizen wanting to be beat by someone and get weaker.


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> *He destroys the admirals. he reached the same level of power as Final Getsuga Ichigo by fusing his being with Zanpaktou, which is why he can use KS without a sword or anything. *
> 
> About the sensing people from hundreds of meters away, literally like chapter 4 with the fucking spirit ribbons. Kubos a bs writer who made the villain too strong so he had to give some PIS/CIS way to defeat him, ergo Aizen wanting to be beat by someone and get weaker.



What does this mean against intangibles with triple gigaton level power, mach 1000+ speed and pre-cog? Any Admiral can borderline fodderize him.


----------



## Redemption X (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> What does this mean against intangibles with triple gigaton level power, mach 1000+ speed and pre-cog? Any Admiral can borderline fodderize him.



You should read entire thread if you are gonna post something like this...

Aizen is also at least triple digit gigatons in both dc and dura (possibly single digit teratons, which by the way can also be applied to admirals),  above mach 1000+ and posses KS + regeneration. 

This match  is debatable. Saying that admiral can fodderize him is outright ridicolous.


----------



## AgentAAA (Sep 10, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He destroys the admirals. he reached the same level of power as Final Getsuga Ichigo by fusing his being with Zanpaktou, which is why he can use KS without a sword or anything.


No he didn't.
Ichigo flat-out points out he's wrong and that he's just getting weaker at that point.
Even if we thought he was right, whether or not he fuses with his zan, he's still got absolutely shit-all stating he reached FGI's level.
If he had nothing in the current plot would be stopping him.


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

Redemption X said:


> You should read entire thread if you are gonna post something like this...
> 
> Aizen is also at least triple digit gigatons in both dc and dura (possibly single digit teratons, which by the way can also be applied to admirals),  above mach 1000+ and posses KS + regeneration.
> 
> This match  is debatable. Saying that admiral can fodderize him is outright ridicolous.



Nothing ridiculous about it. I want evidence for Aizen having speed anywhere near the Admiral's level. As far as I'm aware they are much faster than he is. MUCH faster considering high tiers are near enough Mach 2k and they are top tiers.

Akainu has matched casual quakes from Whitebeard (over 1 teraton in power), has PRECOG and is intangible. Any Admiral can blitz and fodderize him in a second.


----------



## AgentAAA (Sep 10, 2015)

alright, I'll bite, what the hell is this bullshit about Aizen matching the speed of SK's right hand.
Scaling with bleach is pretty shit right now, but given that that bullshit's only reacted to by current Yuha, who has every reason to be above Aizen, there's no way in hell he gets that scaling for certain.

IIRC they're referencing the speed upgrade I did here: 
Not that it scales to Aizen, but it's pretty solid.


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

Not only is that calc relevant to only god tiers, but it's also below the minimum speed of Fujitora's meteor which high tiers reacted to. You know, high tiers like Doflamingo who got lolblitzed over 100m by Gear 4? Top tiers would be at least compare to Luffy's Gear 4 which is apparently >> Fujitora's meteor in speed.

Now, that's independent of the fact that the Admirals have god tier precogntion to go along with that level of speed. The Admirals fodderize him.


----------



## Hamaru (Sep 10, 2015)

1) Why wouldn't Aizen's energy attacks get Yama-ji's bankai scaling? They are the only things that damaged Dangai Ichigo in the slightest, and we know for a fact that Dangai Ichigo was far stronger physically than any of Aizen's evolved forms during their Decide fight. 

2) Why wouldn't Aizen get the right hand speed scale? The mini versions of the Soul Kings power replicated Mimigami's feat and Aizen reitsu crushed them, showing he was at a far greater level. It isn't any different than what Bach did....except he literally did his feat while siting down. 

3) Saying higher tiers are a lot faster than the current top OP calc doesn't hold anymore weight than everyone knowing that the Bleach calc doesn't come close to what it could be, so that point is irrelevant and doesn't suggest Aizen would get blitzed.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Not only is that calc relevant to only god tiers, but it's also below the minimum speed of Fujitora's meteor which high tiers reacted to. You know, high tiers like Doflamingo who got lolblitzed over 100m by Gear 4? Top tiers would be at least compare to Luffy's Gear 4 which is apparently >> Fujitora's meteor in speed.
> 
> Now, that's independent of the fact that the Admirals have god tier precogntion to go along with that level of speed. The Admirals fodderize him.



the calc gets pretty close to theirs at the high end.
Though while I support the high-end the mid-end is actually probably the most reasonable.




Hamaru said:


> 1) Why wouldn't Aizen's energy attacks get Yama-ji's bankai scaling? They are the only things that damaged Dangai Ichigo in the slightest, and we know for a fact that Dangai Ichigo was far stronger physically than any of Aizen's evolved forms during their Decide fight.


Because Yama-jii hasn't been proven weaker in bankai than Ichigo or Aizen and his bankai has a shit-ton of hype behind it, being the zanpakuto with the strongest attack power and having better feats than everything in the deicide arc.




> 2) Why wouldn't Aizen get the right hand speed scale? The mini versions of the Soul Kings power replicated Mimigami's feat and Aizen reitsu crushed them, showing he was at a far greater level. It isn't any different than what Bach did....except he literally did his feat while siting down.


The mini SK's have no quantifiable feats or power identifiers other than that they fucked with captains.
SK's left hand was temporarily able to hold all of existence together.
That beats aizen's best feat easily.
Aizen gets no scaling to that sort of shenanigan.


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

Let's get one thing straight. The meteor speed calculation was horrendously low balled. Meteors don't hover around a planet. They come from extremely far way. The calculation essentially assumed the meteor was summoned from within the atmosphere, when in actuality they were pulled from an asteroid belt at an unknown location NOWHERE NEAR the planet. Or from another planet or even the sun. In actuality, the meteor is probably over Mach 10k. Maybe even far more if we use common sense. So on that point, Aizen is nowhere near the Admiral's speed, or even nowhere near Doflamingo's speed for that matter.

Akainu is capable of producing large island to small country level Dai Funka on a whim. Whitebeard's iceberg shattering quakes disipated enough energy to be felt on an island at a minimum 17000 kilometers away. And were hyped up to be able to be felt anywhere across the planet which would make them much stronger than calculated. When you consider the fact that Akainu:

a) Tanked a quake much stronger than the iceberg quakes.
b) Whitebeard was the angriest he has ever been in his entire life.

You can very easily come to the conclusion that his durability is really far above what Aizen is capable of even dishing out.

In short, the Admirals fodderize him.



AgentAAA said:


> the calc gets pretty close to theirs at the high end.
> Though while I support the high-end the mid-end is actually probably the most reasonable.



should i make a high end for the meteor too? the speed difference is as clear as day


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Because Yama-jii hasn't been proven weaker in bankai than Ichigo or Aizen and his bankai has a shit-ton of hype behind it, being the zanpakuto with the strongest attack power and having better feats than everything in the deicide arc.



Are you a dumb fuck? You're saying Bankai Yamamoto is transcendent level, same tier as Ichigo and Aizen at Deicide. That's just stupid. They both are stronger than Yamamoto, this is one of the most common understandings.


----------



## AgentAAA (Sep 10, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> Are you a dumb fuck? You're saying Bankai Yamamoto is transcendent level, same tier as Ichigo and Aizen at Deicide. That's just stupid. They both are stronger than Yamamoto, this is one of the most common understandings.



Regular yama?
sure.
Bankai Yamamoto's a different beast and could have more than enough reason to not scale to them casually.
Mugetsu certainly does and Aizen's strongest attacks arguably could, but given they've got far, FAR lower showings overall than bankai yama, they don't scale to him on a casual basis.


----------



## Brightsteel (Sep 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Regular yama?
> sure.
> Bankai Yamamoto's a different beast and could have more than enough reason to not scale to them casually.
> Mugetsu certainly does and Aizen's strongest attacks arguably could, but given they've got far, FAR lower showings overall than bankai yama, they don't scale to him on a casual basis.



Has it ever been explained why Yama didn't just go Bankai off the bat, and roast Aizen's ass?


----------



## AgentAAA (Sep 10, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Has it ever been explained why Yama didn't just go Bankai off the bat, and roast Aizen's ass?



using his bankai for heavy lengths of time'd destroy the world.
Given SS at least has reishi and a wall and stuff and he was still gonna cook everyone and everything to death in minutes, one'd imagine it'd be even worse in the rukongai.
Overall, probably just comes down to him thinking Shikai was more than enough, though, as well as thinking he could actually just go bankai if that didn't work.
Extinguir was the only reason Aizen survived that shit and he knows it.

edit: also, bullshit writing


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Regular yama?
> sure.
> Bankai Yamamoto's a different beast and could have more than enough reason to not scale to them casually.
> Mugetsu certainly does and Aizen's strongest attacks arguably could, but given they've got far, FAR lower showings overall than bankai yama, they don't scale to him on a casual basis.



Bankai Yamamoto is a regular Shinigami, his strongest attacks aren't even close to Dangai Ichigo or Monster Aizen's form. They both trump him in speed, power, and every other possible stat out there. You are literally saying Bankai Yamamoto is transcendent level and that's just stupid.



AgentAAA said:


> using his bankai for heavy lengths of time'd destroy the world.
> Given SS at least has reishi and a wall and stuff and he was still gonna cook everyone and everything to death in minutes, one'd imagine it'd be even worse in the rukongai.
> Overall, probably just comes down to him thinking Shikai was more than enough, though, as well as thinking he could actually just go bankai if that didn't work.
> Extinguir was the only reason Aizen survived that shit and he knows it.
> ...



It wouldn't destroy the world, unless you think FKT is the size of a planet. And Yamamoto's release doesn't insantly destroy everything on the spot, the effect takes time. He could have easily gone Bankai and finished the battle before FKT is destroyed but he didn't, he decided to commit suicide by taking the rest of the Captains with him. 

It's not so simple as you think otherwise I could say Aizen should have struck his sword through Yamamoto's skull instead of his body.


----------



## Brightsteel (Sep 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> using his bankai for heavy lengths of time'd destroy the world.
> Given SS at least has reishi and a wall and stuff and he was still gonna cook everyone and everything to death in minutes, one'd imagine it'd be even worse in the rukongai.
> Overall, probably just comes down to him thinking Shikai was more than enough, though, as well as thinking he could actually just go bankai if that didn't work.
> Extinguir was the only reason Aizen survived that shit and he knows it.
> ...



Makes sense. Still doesn't explain why Yama was so keen to sit on his ass, and let his captains handle the shit tho, especially when apparently he alone would be enough to deal with all the Espada (going off of Aizen's own admission that he couldn't hang with Yama, and his claim that he's stronger than all the Espada combined or some shit).


----------



## AgentAAA (Sep 10, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> Bankai Yamamoto is a regular Shinigami, his strongest attacks aren't even close to Dangai Ichigo or Monster Aizen's form. They both trump him in speed, power, and every other possible stat out there. You are literally saying Bankai Yamamoto is transcendent level and that's just stupid.



No, he's the strongest shinigami ever using the zanpakuto with the strongest attack power.
And, seriously, as much wank as Aizen gets?
He still wasn't above Gin's capability to stab.
they're definitely much higher, but Aizen got boxed around a lot before becoming close to equivalent.
Ichigo's a lot more arguable, but Aizen himself doesn't need to scale to what Dangai Ichigo gets scaled to, given he never even became powerful enough to sense Ichigo's regular form, let alone his mugetsu form.
Also, will point out:
Yeah, Aizen did have the regular Hougyoku
Ichigo on the other hand, was also still an ordinary shinigami at the time.


----------



## Tapion (Sep 10, 2015)

This is getting interesting. 

COO sensing operates as Rieatsu sensing with some more added advantages on the side, like prediction. Aizen's illusions wouldn't be that strong if they couldn't manipulate or influence a Shinigami's ability to sense Rieatsu. At the very least, COO is not something that can be used to find Aizen's whereabouts given he can fuck with it thanks to the rule of equivalence.


----------



## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> I need to be spoon fed stables.



FTFY

>Urahara makes an assumption
>Ichigo makes a different assumption
>Ichigo's is proven true by the databook
>Kisuke can't say shit back
>Aizen still has all his powers

I won't repeat myself again





> As I have said great logic. Just cause Kubo feeds bullshit doesn't mean we have to eat it.



That's nice but an opinion of the narrative's quality means fuck all here. Whether or not you consider it terrible writing (and I'd be inclined to agree) won't change the fact that its the conclusion we're given. Being as obtuse as possible won't change that




> That was literally one chapter & Akainu went after Luffy whom he deemed a far serious threat as well as other Admirals. *That is why Commanders fought Aakinu to save him from Aizen*. That was why Admirals last attacks were directed towards Luffy.




Um...yeah, might want to straighten out your thoughts there, chief.

Anyway, I didn't ignore anything because it has nothing to do with my argument. Akainu was out of the game for a long ass time. To the extent where chapters later, one of Whitebeard's allies was surprised he was still alive. Sakazuki was the most prominent Marine in MF and his presence was all but forgotten on the battlefield,  this does not happen in instant. I don't really care what  he accomplished afterwards, what I'm asking you is *why did he take so long to climb out of the chasm if he was fine and dandy after WB squashed him*? 






> They don't have someone on Aizens level to gank him out of Stamina except Yama & he doesn't have infinite amount of it.



Yama has enough stamina to last an entire fight and he's against an Aizen strapped to a chair and can't defend himself. When Mayuri has reiatsu amplifiers to power them up or drugs to poison (we know these work, see Gin) or fuck with Aizen's head. Or the Royal Guard to finish the job with Ichibei who alone shits on Yama in ability and Hikifune who can refill them to max power.  2 whole years and they had squat. Its outright stated that it is *impossible *for anything in SS to kill Aizen and anyone in Muken.

Either Aizen's got a shitton of stamina or the immortality factor isn't related to his energy level at all. Kinda going with the latter considering he was immortal long before the Hogyoku gave him the power to jump tiers with each transformation.




> That was my point Stables. Don't repeat what I was trying to say.



If that was your point then know it does nothing for an argument against Aizen bruh 



> We simply don't know long long he was fighting & how long he was in training. He looked perfectly fine when he stabbed his Zanpakuto. The rest could be his training period.



He was in there for nearly 3 months, the same as Isshin fighting whole time. He looked perfectly fine because Zangetsu chose to limit his power and fight Ichigo as an "equal" instead of killing him from  the start. Notice that  when his Zanpakuto stabbed him had grown significantly and was at the length of when he met Aizen after the training.Kinda indicates quite some time had passed from the beginning and little at the end.




> Shame that you can't use it for Aizen DC. Only Mugetsu gets the scalling from that.



Shame Aizen surpassing the limits of shinigami means he's capable of more than any of them could hence destroying Kototsu. Yamamoto, even with the theoretical use of all his power is still a shinigami.




> Whitebeard wasn't half dead. He became half dead after Akainu took out half his face.



Apologies

Shall I change that to

>Sick old man who had just undergone a heart attack after bleeding out from stab wounds and the very same Akainu punching his heart full of magma?



> And did you really try to use WB's normal quake to when he mustered up his energy to deal the blow to the person who killed his son in front of him?



>Implying one's mindset can overturn the difference in his physical state. I suppose you could but you'd be relying on a shounen trope. I wouldn't ordinarily opposed to that logic since OP has records of feats like this but...



> if you've decided to be as obtuse about this possible, know this game can be played both ways



going to need a formal argument here 



> Provide scan when a Shinigami,hollow can detect a normal person from hundreds of meters away.



There isn't a standard for a "normal" anything in this series. Should've been obvious when shit like telephone poles were revealed to have souls and even standard humans can see guys like Aizen. Only difference is the quantity of power.



> COO sensing is the power to sense all living things whether they are normal humans or strong. It can be also use to gouge ones strength & predict future. A living being in COO looks like (bottom right panel) & it also has the ability to predict moves.



I know that. I was asking through what _medium _does CoO sense living things. ,I'm guessing without a detailed explanation, all we've got to go on is a person's life force.

Though even that does not explain exactly why anyone on the opposition is going to know that Aizen is using an illusion in the first place. Well, except Fujitora.



> Answer me this Stables, How many times he can regenerate after getting hit by Mugetsu before finally going down?



As many times as possible because Mugetsu wasn't the reason he was de-powered. And if it was? The fact that Aizen still couldn't be killed afterwords and they settled for imprisonment means that the Hogyoku requires little if any energy at all regen'ing from that kind of damage. 



> What is his limit on regeneration? What if he decided he doesn't want to be weak how would you use him in vs battle then? What is his upper limit?



Hit him with something stronger than Mugetsu or more esoteric and lethal than whatever any shinigami is capable of. Admirals have neither I'm afraid.


----------



## AgentAAA (Sep 10, 2015)

Tapion said:


> This is getting interesting.
> 
> COO sensing operates as Rieatsu sensing with some more added advantages on the side, like prediction. Aizen's illusions wouldn't be that strong if they couldn't manipulate or influence a Shinigami's ability to sense Rieatsu. At the very least, COO is not something that can be used to find Aizen's whereabouts given he can fuck with it thanks to the rule of equivalence.



to my knowledge Haki doesn't and hasn't fallen under equivalence.


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> No, he's the strongest shinigami ever using the zanpakuto with the strongest attack power.
> And, seriously, as much wank as Aizen gets?
> He still wasn't above Gin's capability to stab.
> they're definitely much higher, but Aizen got boxed around a lot before becoming close to equivalent.
> ...



Do you even read the manga? Aizen survived Ichigo's strongest attack. How doesn't Aizen get scaled to the same as Ichigo when Aizen came out as the victor of the fight and Ichigo was on the ground with his power gone? Aizen's monster transformation is what made Ichigo use Mugetsu in the first place. There is nothing that Yamamoto has shown on the same level as Mugetsu or Fraggor, or Aizen's regeneration, Reaitsu levels or speed.


----------



## Tapion (Sep 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> to my knowledge Haki doesn't and hasn't fallen under equivalence.



Thought the rule of equivalence allowed energy systems or rules to interact with each other when they are similar. Aizen in general should be able to fuck with sensing abilities outside of his own verse with that in mind. To my knowledge sensing Reiatsu only needs a bit of spiritual awareness and has nothing to do with utilizing Reiatsu, similar to Haki.

I suppose the way that Haki and Reiatsu sense people are different. Keep in mind the rule of equivalence allows characters from other verses to be put into genjutsu despite not having a Chakra System even after Ki is equalized with Chakra....For simplicity sake, the middle ground is always cut out.


----------



## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

This thread got even more terrible.  Going to second that lock 




AgentAAA said:


> alright, I'll bite, what the hell is this bullshit about Aizen matching the speed of SK's right hand.
> Scaling with bleach is pretty shit right now, but given that that bullshit's only reacted to by current Yuha, who has every reason to be above Aizen, there's no way in hell he gets that scaling for certain.



Because Ichibei was kicking Yhwach's ass right left and center like a misbehaved stepchild until The Almighty came in. Something that doesn't even work on the Soul King.

That Ichigo didn't get his shit blitzed in their fight and actually defended himself and others twice

That Auschwalen achieved the very same feat just as easily and mooks like Liltotto could react (albeit from a distance)

That fucking Mayuri has been dancing with the left arm of the Soul King.

EDIT: Hell, Aizen _presumably _was about to do the  same thing himself and shoot the palace down

That Aizen's reiatsu at that point in time also makes him physically more powerful than Bach to a retarded degree. At least, it remains true unless Kubo goes through some retcon bullshit near the end. Considering this week's chapter, its definitely not out of the question.




> Because Yama-jii hasn't been proven weaker in bankai than Ichigo or Aizen and his bankai has a shit-ton of hype behind it, being the zanpakuto with the strongest attack power and having better feats than everything in the deicide arc.





If its a contest of raw power. Yamamoto can't beat Aizen.





> SK's left hand was temporarily able to hold all of existence together.


 
Base Yhwach kinda no-sold it.

@Rest

Haki =/= Reiatsu.  The former isn't a generalized energy system


Don't even start that noise


----------



## Tapion (Sep 10, 2015)

@Stables I know that much 


GM, Aizen can affect  Reiatsu sensing as well, otherwise affecting the five senses would be moot in Bleach. Its more along the lines of, do you think Aizen can influence COO to any degree just as he does the ability to sense Reiatsu which is not apart of the five senses?


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

GM is right.I don't even think Aizen has any chance against Fujitora when that fucker alone can bring massive meteors without any problem and as many as he wants,he can levitate an island sized debris and easily dish out island level attacks.On top of that he has god tier CoO.


----------



## Tapion (Sep 10, 2015)

Come to think of it, given what he does to meteors, shouldn't he be able to hurl people out of orbit?


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

Tapion said:


> Come to think of it, given what he does to meteors, shouldn't he be able to hurl people out of orbit?



When Fujitora goes all out he's going to be sending islands out of orbit,not just people


----------



## Tapion (Sep 10, 2015)

A death worthy of Kars tier Villains, but does Oda have the balls?


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

When you realise Fuji could have blown up Dressrosa with a meteor then you sort of realise what kind of power we're dealing with.

The guy can simultaneously hold you down with gravity, send a meteor the size of Marineford down on you and then levitate away on a rock whilst you're crushed under the pressure of 1 teraton of explosive power.


----------



## Sherlōck (Sep 10, 2015)

Liquid said:


> FTFY
> 
> >Urahara makes an assumption
> >Ichigo makes a different assumption
> ...



So basically you didn't prove shit.And Kisuke not saying shit argument was really pathetic TBH. 

Also DB has long history of producing idiotic shit. I wouldn't hold my money on that. I was surprised you even went there. 

Should I also say since Luffy's punch made Garp fall & DB said Luffy is stronger than Garp Luffy has double digit Gigaton power? No. That's just idiotic.



> That's nice but an opinion of the narrative's quality means fuck all here. Whether or not you consider it terrible writing (and I'd be inclined to agree) won't change the fact that its the conclusion we're given. Being as obtuse as possible won't change that



Or we don't have to accept idiotic argument just cause Authors said it. 



> Um...yeah, might want to straighten out your thoughts there, chief.



You know what I meant there.



> Anyway, I didn't ignore anything because it has nothing to do with my argument. Akainu was out of the game for a long ass time. To the extent where chapters later, one of Whitebeard's allies was surprised he was still alive. Sakazuki was the most prominent Marine in MF and his presence was all but forgotten on the battlefield,  this does not happen in instant. I don't really care what  he accomplished afterwards, what I'm asking you is *why did he take so long to climb out of the chasm if he was fine and dandy after WB squashed him*?



WB alies can be surprised all he wants doesn't change the fact Akainu was fine & dandy to the point he fought WB's whole crew alone for a good period of time. 

And he didn't take long. The sequence of events barely took 2 minutes in real life in which he went straight after Luffy.



> Yama has enough stamina to last an entire fight and he's against an Aizen strapped to a chair and can't defend himself. When Mayuri has reiatsu amplifiers to power them up or drugs to poison (we know these work, see Gin) or fuck with Aizen's head. Or the Royal Guard to finish the job with Ichibei who alone shits on Yama in ability and Hikifune who can refill them to max power.  2 whole years and they had squat. Its outright stated that it is *impossible *for anything in SS to kill Aizen and anyone in Muken.



Yama in Bankai barely has 5 minutes worth of power before he blows up SS. Unless Central 46 went full retard they would never allow something like that.Especially when  they have him in their custody & for all intent & purpose he can't do shit.

And no one denied he had immortality Stables. So even if they use all the resource by Bleach standard Aizen would still be alive. 



> Either Aizen's got a shitton of stamina or the immortality factor isn't related to his energy level at all. Kinda going with the latter considering he was immortal long before the Hogyoku gave him the power to jump tiers with each transformation.



That's what I just said. 



> If that was your point then know it does nothing for an argument against Aizen bruh



No idea what you are talking about bruh. It was you who brought up Fodder Renji stamina into equation. I was just pointing out Fodder Renji could fight 1 month straight & it still wouldn't mean jack shit to top tiers.



> He was in there for nearly 3 months, the same as Isshin fighting whole time. He looked perfectly fine because Zangetsu chose to limit his power and fight Ichigo as an "equal" instead of killing him from  the start. Notice that  when his Zanpakuto stabbed him had grown significantly and was at the length of when he met Aizen after the training.Kinda indicates quite some time had passed from the beginning and little at the end.



No one denied he was there for 3 months Stables. Stop singing same song over & over again like no one is listening.



> Shame Aizen surpassing the limits of shinigami means he's capable of more than any of them could hence destroying Kototsu. Yamamoto, even with the theoretical use of all his power is still a shinigami.



This argument of Aizen fragor has same power as Yama-s suicide attack has risen recently by passive argument of bullshit. He isn't getting casual attack DC from the strongest shinigamis full blown attack. 

I can say that his all Fragor fired at once have good possibility of having same power as Yama suicide though.



> Apologies
> 
> Shall I change that to
> 
> >Sick old man who had just undergone a heart attack after bleeding out from stab wounds and the very same Akainu punching his heart full of magma?



Like injuries in OP is something new. Even in his half dead state he still retained power that surprised Sengoku. 



> >Implying one's mindset can overturn the difference in his physical state. I suppose you could but you'd be relying on a shounen trope. I wouldn't ordinarily opposed to that logic since OP has records of feats like this but...



Answering your own question isn't great sign. Just shows you understand the concept but just salty.



> going to need a formal argument here



Quoting your own post now? 



> There isn't a standard for a "normal" anything in this series. Should've been obvious when shit like telephone poles were revealed to have souls and even standard humans can see guys like Aizen. Only difference is the quantity of power.



Still waiting for a scan Stables.



> I know that. I was asking through what _medium _does CoO sense living things. ,I'm guessing without a detailed explanation, all we've got to go on is a person's life force.



If you want to chime down on explanation how power works we can go down that road. But we both know Authors don't really explain it properly or can't. They just use those cause its looks awesome on "x" character.



> Though even that does not explain exactly why anyone on the opposition is going to know that Aizen is using an illusion in the first place. Well, except Fujitora.



Everyone can do that. Even Ussop.And he just got it.





> As many times as possible because Mugetsu wasn't the reason he was de-powered. And if it was? The fact that Aizen still couldn't be killed afterwords and they settled for imprisonment means that the Hogyoku requires little if any energy at all regen'ing from that kind of damage.



I am asking how many times. As many times as possible is vague as fuck.

No one said he isn't immortal again Stables. He can't be killed. We know it already. 



> Hit him with something stronger than Mugetsu or more esoteric and lethal than whatever any shinigami is capable of. Admirals have neither I'm afraid.



You don't need it to be stronger. Just more or less comparable & hit with it more times. 

There is a reason why I didn't include Kizaru in the list. Cause I don't think he can win, Yet. Until we seem him stop fucking around at least.

Aokiji doesn't need DC. He only needs to freeze Aizen inside out the moment he gets the chance & he will by having better speed & COO.

Akainu wins by sheer DC & having more or less comparable power to beat Aizen down. Its gonna be a long one. But he will come out victorious. He has 55-45 chance in his favor.


----------



## Sherlōck (Sep 10, 2015)

Anyway,I debated here after a long time. Time to leave. Don't want get too obsessed with it. Thanks for the time Stables.


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

Wait. Are people forgetting that Akainu literally took a quake punch >the iceberg quakes to his HEAD and got back right after? He laughed off a concentrated 1 teraton attack to his head. No energy was dissipated anywhere.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> When you realise Fuji could have blown up Dressrosa with a meteor then you sort of realise what kind of power we're dealing with.
> 
> The guy can simultaneously hold you down with gravity, send a meteor the size of Marineford down on you and then levitate away on a rock whilst you're crushed under the pressure of 1 teraton of explosive power.



And some here think Aizen stands a chance


----------



## Hamaru (Sep 10, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Because Yama-jii hasn't been proven weaker in bankai than Ichigo or Aizen and his bankai has a shit-ton of hype behind it, being the zanpakuto with the strongest attack power and having better feats than everything in the deicide arc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing hints that Yama-jii is anywhere near Dangai Ichigo or Monster Aizen's level. Bankai is nothing more than a multiplier. He just so happens to have crazy destructive power in base, and shikai, so yeah, of course his bankai is going to be hyped, but that is when compared to other Shinigami, not gods of the verse. 

The mini SK's closed the gap between the Royal Realm and SS in seconds. The people they "fucked with" included 3 people who just came back from the Royal Realm. One of them soloed 5 SR, which included Candice who cancelled out Ichigo's getsu. Without getting into all of that crap, the point is that they were fucking with very credible people, and Aizen treated them like ants. 



God Movement said:


> Let's get one thing straight. The meteor speed calculation was horrendously low balled. Meteors don't hover around a planet. They come from extremely far way. The calculation essentially assumed the meteor was summoned from within the atmosphere, when in actuality they were pulled from an asteroid belt at an unknown location NOWHERE NEAR the planet. Or from another planet or even the sun. In actuality, the meteor is probably over Mach 10k. Maybe even far more if we use common sense. So on that point, Aizen is nowhere near the Admiral's speed, or even nowhere near Doflamingo's speed for that matter.
> 
> Akainu is capable of producing large island to small country level Dai Funka on a whim. Whitebeard's iceberg shattering quakes disipated enough energy to be felt on an island at a minimum 17000 kilometers away. And were hyped up to be able to be felt anywhere across the planet which would make them much stronger than calculated. When you consider the fact that Akainu:
> 
> ...



Both Bleach and OP meteor feats use extremely low-balled numbers. Unless people can prove yama-jii's bankai packs more power than Aizen's mini bombs, he isn't getting fodderized by anyone.


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

Hamaru said:


> Both Bleach and OP meteor feats use extremely low-balled numbers. Unless people can prove yama-jii's bankai packs more power than Aizen's mini bombs, he isn't getting fodderized by anyone.



No. One Piece's meteor is lowballed because the planet is confirmed a dozen times the the size of ours.


----------



## Keishin (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Basically the Rule of Equivalence doesn't give you abilities you do not have. So essentially, concerning Busoushoku Haki (the ability to harm Logia's) just because you have an ability similar to it doesn't mean you can somehow harm Logia's if you haven't shown the ability to do so.
> 
> Concerning Kenbunshoku (sensing/precog), it operates as a sixth sense giving you a rough image of your surroundings in your . Admiral Isshou is blind, so he can only use Kenbunshoku to track his opponents. You need not: sight, hearing, taste, touch or smell. As long as presence exists you can detect it. So despite the fact that Aizen can affect the 5 senses, it will have no bearing on CoO. Just because you're fooled into thinking he's in front of you will not affect the picture in the mind which clearly illustrates his position as being behind you.



Might as well say that Aizen cuts their soul with his Soul Cutter then and their intangibility doesn't protect their souls.


----------



## Hamaru (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> No. One Piece's meteor is lowballed because the planet is confirmed a dozen times the the size of ours.



The reason behind the low-ball doesn't matter. Point is neither is going to get calced to their upper limits, so it doesn't matter in this debate.


----------



## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Anyway,I debated here after a long time. Time to leave. Don't want confine myself to it. Thanks for the time Stables.



NP, because this also means I don't have to read that wall of text. Too much work in 2015 





God Movement said:


> No. One Piece's meteor is lowballed because the planet is confirmed a dozen times the the size of ours.



And the SK's speed feat is low-balled under the assumption that Ichigo has to take stairs when he can free-fall and that he only moves as fast as _Kon_. 


Arguing potential speed feats seems kind of pointless.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

Liquid said:


> NP, because this also means I don't have to read that wall of text. Too much work in 2015
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure you guys were using the free fall speed anyway.Which is still slower than the meteors.


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

Keishin said:


> Might as well say that Aizen cuts their soul with his Soul Cutter then and their intangibility doesn't protect their souls.



No. That's stupid.



Hamaru said:


> The reason behind the low-ball doesn't matter. Point is neither is going to get calced to their upper limits, so it doesn't matter in this debate.



Of course it does. One is low-balled because we only used the height of the known atmosphere, it can also be rectified with small assumptions (One Piece). The other is low-balled because there is no fucking way you can work out an accurate speed for it (Bleach).


----------



## God Movement (Sep 10, 2015)

Liquid said:


> And the SK's speed feat is low-balled under the assumption that Ichigo has to take stairs when he can free-fall and that he only moves as fast as _Kon_.
> 
> 
> Arguing potential speed feats seems kind of pointless.



There's nothing "potential" about it. At any point I may just decide to actually finish the calculation off and then there will be no "potential speed feat".


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> There's nothing "potential" about it. At any point I may just decide to actually finish the calculation off and then there will be no "potential speed feat".



Do that and Fujitora's debris feat


----------



## Byrd (Sep 10, 2015)

How does Aizen even get past their intag.... when he cannot disperse them enough to kill them?


----------



## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> There's nothing "potential" about it. At any point I may just decide to actually finish the calculation off and then there will be no "potential speed feat".



Go ham, bro.  At the very least, It'd make this discussion less arguable. 



Byrd said:


> How does Aizen even get past their intag.... when he cannot disperse them enough to kill them?



Byrd, we just had this argument. AoE is the least of Aizen's problems.

Only thing that's worth arguing here is whether Aizen can hurt them because they're not killing him asides from Aokiji.


----------



## Pocalypse (Sep 10, 2015)

Byrd said:


> How does Aizen even get past their intag.... when he cannot disperse them enough to kill them?



Multiple Fraggors, Hado 90 which destroyed the Soul King's powers or just an influx of a huge amount of Reaitsu capable of bringing down a dimension. Take your pick.


----------



## Byrd (Sep 10, 2015)

Did you seriously say Fraggor

Kek

and whats the DC for all those cause u are gonna need something in the teratons to even do anything to them


----------



## Brightsteel (Sep 10, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Did you seriously say Fraggor
> 
> Kek
> 
> and whats the DC for all those cause u are gonna need something in the teratons to even do anything to them



Triple digit gigaton if you're scaling from the Kenpachi feat.


----------



## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

I could actually tackle some of these arguments, but this thread is legit awful.


----------



## Tapion (Sep 10, 2015)

Don't, the thread is on its way out


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 10, 2015)

8 fucking pages


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## Pocalypse (Sep 10, 2015)

This thread is Monster Aizen vs Admirals in disguise because current Aizen *without* the seals and the chair is *unquantifiable*. He should be even stronger than Monster Aizen but we don't know his full capacity without the seals but thinking about it, his Reaitsu levels should be off the charts if he can bring down the palace without the seals, which is restricting even more of his Reaitsu because Aizen knew he still had seals on him so he could only output a given max.


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

It's a neat idea, but atmospheres in fiction tend to be far too wonky in the first place for me to be comfortable with the idea that we can assume these things scale linearly with increased size relative to real life.


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

I mean, I'm no meteorologist, but we already handwave shit to allow for weirdly sized atmospheres in fiction (even for verses with planets that are presumably Earth-sized and not suggested to be larger/smaller).

And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, I imagine the ratio in size regarding particular layers of the atmosphere has to do with the parameters and shit we handwave for all this in the first place.

Hence, why's the ratio necessarily the same as in real life? 

Might have fucked up that explanation somewhere down the line, I dunno.


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## Brightsteel (Sep 10, 2015)

B-but Sub-Relativistic One Piece.


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## Zern227 (Sep 10, 2015)

Didn't they just find a super sized Earth?


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## shade0180 (Sep 10, 2015)

I think Regi is saying that the atmosphere is treated the same way as gravity or the moon or the sun..

as long as it isn't mentioned to have any special effect then we assume that it is the same in real life.


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## Zern227 (Sep 10, 2015)

Might as well, even though it probably doesn't. The One Piece planet isn't as nearly as confusing as Pop Star, for example.


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

Shade should probably never try to speak for me in the future.


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## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

God Movement said:


> I'll knock something together quickly.
> 
> The . It makes rather reasonable assumptions but is clearly low-balled.
> 
> ...



Are you using the one minute timeframe?


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

He's dividing the distance by sixty, so.. yes.


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

Anyways, what I mean is that we allow for the existence of atmospheres in series around here that don't match up with real life expectations because we just handwave it as being a quirk of fiction in general.

Final Fantasy is a pretty huge offender that comes to mind.

Like a bunch of other inconsistencies we tend not to care for, like hypersonic characters not causing collateral damage just from moving around and whatnot.

The problem comes up here in my mind when GM's takes the size ratio of layers in the atmosphere as being the same for OP's planet.

You could handwave this, of course, but I'm pretty sure that the layers of the atmosphere being what they are in real life is reliant on the shit we threw out the window to validate weird atmospheres in the first place.

Am I making any sense or is this all just incoherent babbling?


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

Actually, I'm not even sure if that's a more concise explanation or if I'm just reiterating myself and therefore not making it any easier to digest.


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## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

I for once don't understand a thing you say Regi


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## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

> For once

Regi has never made sense


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## Imagine (Sep 10, 2015)

Regi was a mistake.

It is known


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

Liquid said:


> > For once
> 
> Regi has never made sense


Tables pls, we all know you've come to me for thoughts on Detergent feats in the past

If I never made sense you've spent an awful lot of time asking for help from a madman 


Imagine said:


> Regi was a mistake.
> 
> It is known


That's an odd way of spelling your own name, Imagine


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## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

But what he's saying is fairly simple...I think

Calcs based on the general atmosphere are wonky because of some examples in fiction where planets that are otherwise earth sized have impossible atmospheric conditions so theyre handwaved as a result

in other words.  Ops larger atmosphere doesn't necessarily mean a  bigger earth

don't have a clue whether that's justified here tho


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

Actually no wait

You've spent a lot of time asking for help with F/GO too


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## Dellinger (Sep 10, 2015)

Why it wouldn't mean a bigger earth though?


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## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Actually no wait
> 
> You've spent a lot of time asking for help with F/GO too



Doesn't make sense that you have a better party than me either. Thanks for proving my point hoe


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

Liquid said:


> But what he's saying is fairly simple...I think
> 
> Calcs based on the general atmosphere are wonky because of some examples in fiction where planets that are otherwise earth sized have impossible atmospheric conditions so theyre handwaved as a result
> 
> in other words.  Ops larger atmosphere doesn't necessarily mean a  bigger earth


That's getting closer but not quite what I'm getting at 

GM's calc is trying to account for OP's larger atmosphere by making note of something which is evident in Earth's atmosphere in real life

But the only reason that let nonsensical atmospheres in series roam free is because of us discarding the real life shit which makes those atmospheres impossible

And the property of the real life atmosphere GM's calc is using is based on that real life shit which we discarded to begin with

I think this is as simple as I can make it sound


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Doesn't make sense that you have a better party than me either. Thanks for proving my point hoe


You're just salty cause I have Gil and another 5* servant and you only have Attila

Or maybe for all I know it's just your Gil lust at work here


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## Imagine (Sep 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Tables pls, we all know you've come to me for thoughts on Detergent feats in the past
> 
> If I never made sense you've spent an awful lot of time asking for help from a madman
> That's an odd way of spelling your own name, Imagine


So Regi is an Imagine? That makes no sense


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## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> You're just salty cause I have Gil and another 5* servant and you only have Attila
> 
> Or maybe for all I know it's just your Gil lust at work here



Aight

threads terribleness just peaked

what do ud and modbat get ava rights for. Lock


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## Qinglong (Sep 10, 2015)

>not getting free gold

hurry up stables time's running out


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## Regicide (Sep 10, 2015)

I'm just going to pretend Imagine's not saying anything 

Anyways like, I'm fairly certain that if someone tried to calculate what an atmosphere with a 40,000~ km mesopause looked like, it wouldn't necessarily have a 347,000~ km thermopause, basically


Liquid said:


> Aight
> 
> threads terribleness just peaked
> 
> what do ud and modbat get ava rights for. Lock


The truth hurts, doesn't it Tables


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## Sablés (Sep 10, 2015)

Qinglong said:


> >not getting free gold
> 
> hurry up stables time's running out



I already got best saber Siegfried 

now I need an archer. Can't rely on Fail Bolg-kun and GOATjiro forever


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## Lucino (Sep 10, 2015)

I dare say this thread is beyond cancer.

Needs locking.


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## KaiserWombat (Sep 10, 2015)

I *really* have got to stop letting HST threads go past 3 pages. Or 1 page.

But it's just that: I keep on having the highest expectations out of you folks to keep the innate degeneracy afloat with healthy, rational and balanced discourse...

...and then you always, _always_ let me down, time after time after time.

I guess it's as much my fault as anyone else's for expecting such great standards to emerge from internet slurry.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 10, 2015)

KaiserWombat said:


> I *really* have got to stop letting HST threads go past 3 pages. Or 1 page.



Are we doing this again? I'm down with that


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