# Base Sasuke vs Base Itachi



## Seiji (Feb 14, 2013)

Location: McDonnalds

Distance: 35 meters

Knowledge: Manga

Mindset: IC

Restrictions: Mangekyo Sharingan, Izanami and Kirin. This version of base Sauce no longer has Orochimaru's powers by the way.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 14, 2013)

Sick Itachi has generally no chance at outlasting Sasuke without MS techs. 

His Katons are weaker, his CQC is limited against Chidori, and he's blind.

His only chance at defeating him is Genjutsu, but we're all aware Sasuke's base Sharingan controlled Manda.

Sasuke defeats his brother with mid difficulty.

Also hawks be raping them crows.


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## Seiji (Feb 14, 2013)

No takers?


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## Jυstin (Feb 14, 2013)

Since the Uchiha fight, the only improvement Sasuke's shown is his MS powerup, and he _lost_ the Cursed Seal, which let him overpower a _sick_ Itachi's Katon in their exchange. Healthy Itachi spits fire that not only is too much for Samahada to eat completely, but also so powerful that it _hurt_ Samahada in the process. Itachi's also better in CQC, able to keep up with Bee's pace without displaying any remote trouble like that of Sasuke when he fought Bee, and with simple speed, Sharingan Genjutsu, and _fast_ Jutsu execution, was able to keep _Bee_ on his toes, akin to the way Bee kept Sasuke on his toes. Itachi was also dealing with RM Naruto as well. Sasuke had no prayer against just Bee. Edo Tensei's advantage is auto regeneration, but Itachi didn't need it. 

It was made clear (stated) by Sasuke that he almost died vs Itachi a number of times in their fight (this was *before* Sasuke brought up that "he even used MS on me" in _addition_ to his near deaths), and Obito confirmed that, had Itachi been serious, Sasuke would have been dead. Zetsu said Itachi's true power (despite showing MS, which wasn't what Zetsu was referring to) wasn't shown, and that his movements were way off that he suspected Itachi had been *severely* wounded prior to the fight. We wondered what Zetsu inferred by this, but it was made clear when Itachi was revived, what kind of superior movement and base skill Itachi had over Sasuke, who now pretty much just spams MS powers.

People who use the Uchiha fight against Itachi, I seriously question. I would never use a fight, even if it were in my favor, where one of the opponents was actively throwing the fight, on top of having a fatal illness and near blindness. I just wouldn't. It's not legitimate. Still though, despite Itachi's lesser stamina and the fact that he was also sick and using lots of MS Jutsu (and a few Karasu Bunshins prior to the fight), they both ran out of chakra at the same time (or Sasuke a bit sooner), so Itachi must have godly chakra control (but seeing how Genjutsu requires it, and the more skilled the chakra control, the more skilled the Genjutsu, this is a given).

Oh, and vs Kabuto, I believe Itachi still displayed superior skill and tactics as a shinobi. I didn't see Sasuke outperform Itachi at all, despite his EMS. With Itachi not dicking around, this wouldn't last too long, but with the mindset IC and the knowledge manga, Itachi will not kill Sasuke, and Sasuke knows the truth and will not kill Itachi.

Neither wins, to Mc'Donalds' relief. Both get Happy Meals. Itachi gives Sasuke both toys.


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## Ersa (Feb 14, 2013)

Very close in all honesty.

Itachi has a slight advantage in speed/reflexes but not enough to make a difference.

Sasuke can take it with his Raiton variants. Itachi can take it with a sneaky genjutsu and kunai blitz. Itachi can also use clones to gain an advantage, since Sasuke does not have Hebi powers here it may make all the difference.

Leaning towards Itachi but Sasuke has a very good chance as well due to his better stamina.


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## Stermor (Feb 14, 2013)

bee casually killed that sasuke 3 times... 

while itachi could keep up with bee equally.. 

itachi beats sasuke with much better speed, better jutsu synergy and brains..


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## GKY (Feb 14, 2013)

Itachi takes this with extreme difficulty. Sasuke certainly has a superior arsenal with Chidori and hawk summons, and chakra supply, but Itachi is a better battle tactician and has superior speed, reflexes, genjutsu and weapons usage IMO. Sasuke has been known to let his emotions get the better of him, and that's where I think Itachi will take him. Also, Sasuke seemingly can't keep up with Itachi's clones, since he didn't realize he used a bushin against Kabuto with his EMS activated. Still, nothing Itachi does in base is leagues superior to what Sasuke can do, and Sasuke has a finishing move in chidori that Itachi doesn't. 

I say eventually Sasuke will manage to stab Itachi through the stomach/arm/leg with his Chidori sword, but accidentally get caught in a genjutsu. At that point, Itachi swaps out an exploding bushin, who Sasuke "kills", takes the brunt of the explosion then gets finished with a kunai or some other jutsu Kishi forgot to mention Itachi has.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 15, 2013)

Stermor said:


> bee casually killed that sasuke 3 times...
> 
> while itachi could keep up with bee equally..
> 
> itachi beats sasuke with much better speed, better jutsu synergy and brains..


I wouldn't say equally, Sasuke went at Bee while Itachi simply evaded Bee. 

More importantly that was a healthy Itachi without the stress of physical fatigue, he also wasn't blind. Dude was spamming shunshin. 

Sick Itachi is slower and won't be able to perceive well as he is 60% blind. 

Itachi's Jutsu is pathetic in comparison to Sasuke's, and at this point Sasuke is just as intelligent if not smarter tactically than Itachi based on feats.

All I can say is I hope it isn't night time for Itachi's blind ass sake.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2013)

Stermor said:


> bee casually killed that sasuke 3 times...
> 
> while itachi could keep up with bee equally..
> 
> itachi beats sasuke with much better speed, better jutsu synergy and brains..



To be fair, the latter kill (or latter two, I can't remember) were when Bee was in his V2 form. But the first time was definitely Bee in his form that he fought Itachi in, and Itachi had no trouble handling both Bee and Naruto while putting the pressure on Bee, while Bee alone was able to put pressure on Sasuke, even with MS. There's also Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto, where Itachi again displayed greater skill and judgement. People thinking the only difference was MS and sheer power have reading comprehension problems.

Though I'm not saying that's you. You know what's important.


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## GKY (Feb 15, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> I wouldn't say equally, Sasuke went at Bee while Itachi simply evaded Bee.
> 
> More importantly that was a healthy Itachi without the stress of physical fatigue, he also wasn't blind. Dude was spamming shunshin.
> 
> ...



Sick Itachi is somewhat of a myth. We don't know how much he was holding back against Sasuke, and honestly that was also before Kishi retconned how much damage MS usage does to the user. So since he has used Tsukuyomi already at that point, he was already hindered from its usage. This one however won't have such problems.

The 30% Itachi clone was able to use a couple of genjutsu and katon and didn't seem drained at all. Also, as blind as he was, his eye sight didn't seem to be a hindrance in that fight. 

The OP didn't state which version of Itachi it was, so naturally I'm going to give him his edo feats since it was his most recent form, and I think he can preform just as well in his living state as he did in his edo state. 

Also, in the Kabuto fight Itachi was clearly portrayed as the smarter of the two. Add that to the fight against Nagato and all the hype about Itachi's "wisdom" from  recently and it seems reasonable to assume Kishi believes Itachi is the smarter of the two.

Although I agree with you that if Itachi is only limited to his feats in the Sasuke fight, he probably can't win this.


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## Stermor (Feb 15, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> I wouldn't say equally, Sasuke went at Bee while Itachi simply evaded Bee.
> 
> More importantly that was a healthy Itachi without the stress of physical fatigue, he also wasn't blind. Dude was spamming shunshin.
> 
> ...



itachi kinda attacked with a quite powerful synergy of weapons genjutsu and ninjutsu.. i wouldn't really call that evading.. though he did evade 7 sword style.. something that sasuke couldn't do.. 

true itachi was in edo form.. but sasuke couldn't follow bee's shunsin.. he was getting overwhelmed(easily) with 7 sword style.. there is quite a big gap.. beeing edo will have helped but i doubt it would make itachi that much slower.. 

itachi's jutsu are weaker.. but much better thought out.. for instance itachi's crimson nail balsem attack.. the last time itachi had sasuke in a genjutsu it lasted minutes before sasuke broke it(likely that even itachi didn't put his full effort in that one) now with the crimson nail balsem attack sasuke has a split second to dispell that genjutsu.. 

i'm really not seeing sasuke doing that even with the sharingan.. hell i'm not really seeing anyone but jinchuuriki's or masters of genjutsu themself breaking that combo before it is to late.. 

remember danzo's laughed about sasuke genjutsu in comparison to itachi's.. 

and lol can you give me 1 single battle where sasuke wasn't just spamming ms.. the kabuto fight has shown sasuke was quite alot weaker then his big brother.. 

also night time would be much harder to fight in for sasuke (who can't see) then itachi who is already familiar to fight with next to no sight..


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## Ersa (Feb 15, 2013)

Edo Itachi has the same physical speed/reflexes as Sick Itachi, he just doesn't have the sickness. 

I still think clones can be a gamebreaker here especially if Itachi lures Sasuke into a genjutsu.

For example in the shruiken fight a Sasuke without Hebi powers would've been hurt by Itachi's clones.


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## Krippy (Feb 15, 2013)

Is this current base Sauce? 

If so, then he has the edge here, their base stats aside from intelligence are damn near equal and with a more lethal ninjutsu pool and a natural counter to Itachi's genjutsu, he should win with mid to high difficulty


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## Dark Slayer (Feb 15, 2013)

Itachi is faster than Sasuke and has better control due to higher intelligence. He is extremely versatile without the Mangekyo Sharingan as well. 

He beats Sasuke with mid-difficulty especially while serious.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 15, 2013)

While Sasuke has more lethal offensive techs than Itachi, Itachi's supplementary techs can become quite lethal when used in the right time, like Karasu and exploding bunshins. Itachi is overall the better fighter, given he is more agile and intelligent.
He wins this wiht mid - high difficulty.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2013)

Point is Sasuke could mount neither an offense nor a defense against Bee, while Itachi was perfectly adept at using both. The OP doesn't state Itachi is sick either. Still, sick Itachi outlasted Sasuke when it came to stamina, even if by a little, which is saying something considering Itachi's stamina is already lower than Sasuke's. Itachi just has better chakra control, which goes hand-in-hand with Genjutsu.

And it's not the Jutsu themselves. It's how they are used. Shikamaru himself said that Jutsu aren't the only weapons. Even pre-RM Naruto had some badass powerful Jutsu, but Itachi would rape him 8 ways bent over a stool before he could utter the taboo phrase "Believe it!". Even RM Naruto Itachi had no problems fighting with, who possesses amazing Jutsu. Point is, it's how they are used. Itachi, not holding back, possesses Katons of incredible heat, and is a master of evasion and maneuvering. Itachi does not waste a move.

We even saw in the Kabuto fight how Itachi outperformed Sasuke, and not in Jutsu. Just in raw skill and intelligence, which go farther than Jutsu alone.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2013)

Nate River said:


> Location: McDonnalds
> 
> Distance: 35 meters
> 
> ...



Sasuke wins. We saw the fight and it led to Itachi resorting to the MS. Sasuke can easily recreate the same scenario, but he'll make sure to be more cautious seeing as he lacks Orochimaru's chakra.

Taijutsu is the only real field that Itachi has Sasuke beat. Though knowing that, Sasuke's not going to opt for pure Taijutsu. He'll opt for a combination of Taijutsu and Ninjutsu with some Kenjutsu on the side; something that helped him the last time.

Itachi may put more effort now, this may mean relying on clones (but still needs to watch his low stamina, so not so much Kage Bunshins). However Sasuke _knows_ Itachi can be tricky with clones and knows he lacks Orochimaru's powers. So Chidori Nagashi and Senbons are likely to be more frequent. Lets not forget the Katon that burned Itachi; the Katon that could've canonically killed Itachi if Sasuke wanted to aim the jutsu at him.

Of course it won't be a walk in the park, but Sasuke _has_ shown that combining the arts, he is effective against base Itachi's (+ Tsukuyomi) fighting style. In fact he _built_ his fighting style for Itachi. 

*In short: Sasuke wins* If there's not too much damage, Sasuke can have a celebratory meal.

---



Stermor said:


> bee casually killed that sasuke 3 times...
> 
> while itachi could keep up with bee equally..



You're comparing evading Bee with going towards Bee. Further you're comparing an Edo Tensei enhanced Itachi and an injured Sasuke. So an Itachi that wouldn't _necessarily_ get tired with a Sasuke who had some bad wounds.

Now in this fight, Itachi is weaker than when he faced Bee (he's presumably a living body ITT) and Sasuke is stronger than when he faced Bee (he's not injured). 
In other words your point, if presented with certain evidence could actually be used in _favour_ of Sasuke and _against_ Itachi.


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## Inferno (Feb 15, 2013)

Why does everyone always try to downplay Sasuke's intelligence? He outsmarted and outmaneuvered Deidara, Itachi, and A.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2013)

I wouldn't count it outsmarting if the fight was stated to be completely staged by Itachi (entirely for Sasuke's benefit) from the start, including Sasuke's own countermeasures. That puts Itachi in the position of puppet master, and Sasuke the puppet. Unless you're talking outside of the Uchiha "fight".


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## Thunder (Feb 15, 2013)

Inferno said:


> Why does everyone always try to downplay Sasuke's intelligence? He outsmarted and outmaneuvered Deidara, Itachi, and A.



Sasuke is intelligent and can devise brilliant strategies when focused, but at the same time he's rash (e.g. attempting to blitz two Akatsuki members and attacking the Kage Summit). This becomes even more apparent when Sasuke's being compared to someone like Itachi, who always maintains his composure and rarely displays any emotions.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> I wouldn't count it outsmarting if the fight was stated to be completely staged by Itachi (entirely for Sasuke's benefit) from the start, including Sasuke's own countermeasures. That puts Itachi in the position of puppet master, and Sasuke the puppet. Unless you're talking outside of the Uchiha "fight".



_Completely_ staged is an overstatement; even more so with the puppet master analogy. 
That is one way too look at it.

Another way, and imo a more logical way, he just expected Sasuke to have counters to jutsu that were clearly in the Uchiha tablet. Except the one which the Sharingan couldn't decode - Susanoo. 

How do we know which interpretation to side it, that's the question. The first one, the one you posit, requires a huge leap of faith and only relies on _one_ piece of evidence. Just one. 
In contrast to the second one which relies on the evidence the first relies on as well as many more, including the actual fight. 

Evidence aside, logic comes in too: is it more believable that Itachi knew every precise detail before it even happened? (Despite not knowing about jutsu like Kirin's existence, or that Sasuke's set up Katon could've overwhelmed him?)
Or is it more believable that Itachi simply knew that he led Sasuke to believe that Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were the only big fish he had to prepare for and expected Sasuke to prepare for them. (Supported by the fact that Sasuke _did_ prepare for them, and didn't for the one Itachi didn't hint at.)

The puppet master analogy forces those who take that interpretation to throw away and disregard the Sasuke vs Itachi fight as evidence to show how this fight would go.
The other allows us to use that fight as supporting evidence. 

If you ask me, I'd go with the other as Itachi's subsequent performance wasn't really that different to his battle with Sasuke- except more Susanoo use. That (MS in general) isn't applicable in this thread though. So that really means vs Sasuke and beyond... same base Itachi. 
Aside from the technical differences i.e. the Itachi beyond the one who faced Sasuke was enhanced by Kabuto's hand.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't think Sasuke's Katon really overwhelmed him. I mean, it was debatable before, not knowing if he'd held that back or not, but then seeing the power his Katon had against Bee, where even Samahada could not fully absorb it, and Samahada was actually in pain, I knew Itachi was pulling that back. Sasuke also had help from Itachi being sick and Sasuke possessing the Cursed Seal, in that Katon struggle.

Though, I will admit it's possible Itachi didn't know about Kirin. He knows a lot of things we didn't think he should know, though. However, we were told Itachi had taken Sasuke's counter measures into account (this could be a general statement, though he seemed to know about everything Sasuke possessed barring Kirin, though he didn't state his lack of knowledge either way), and only dished out what Sasuke could handle, so naturally we saw him able to deal with whatever Itachi threw at him, because he wanted it that way. Sasuke himself even admitted he'd almost died numerous times (before adding in Itachi's use of MS to his list of rebuttals), and Obito said it would have happened had Itachi wanted it.

That's why I never use the Uchiha fight as a solid example, because it was so played out that M. Knight Shyamalan wanted to direct it. When Zetsu mentioned Itachi's movements and power was way off (to the point of thinking he'd been SEVERELY wounded pre-fight), we didn't know what Zetsu had seen from Itachi overall skill and movement-wise, until we saw his Edo fights. His Edo self only granted regen and infinite chakra, and he didn't need to use his regen on Naruto and Bee, nor did he use substantial amounts of chakra that his sick self in the Uchiha fight couldn't replicate (two Katon and one normal Genjutsu before he broke free of Kabuto's control). His movements were completely different from Sasuke's. Much less clumsy and purposeful. Based on Sasuke's post Uchiha fight performances, I don't think he could have replicated the same feat without a scratch. He tends to resort to Susano'o in those situations.

In the fight with Kabuto, we wouldn't be able to take their MS use into account, but their performance, like speed, reaction, keeping calm/nerve, decisiveness, etc.. All those elements which are key to victory over raw power and Jutsu.

Though the problem is knowledge is manga and they are IC, so Itachi won't kill Sasuke nor will Sasuke kill Itachi since Sasuke knows the truth


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## Radice (Feb 15, 2013)

Stermor said:


> itachi kinda attacked with a quite powerful synergy of weapons genjutsu and ninjutsu.. i wouldn't really call that evading.. though he did evade 7 sword style.. something that sasuke couldn't do..
> 
> true itachi was in edo form.. but sasuke couldn't follow bee's shunsin.. he was getting overwhelmed(easily) with 7 sword style.. there is quite a big gap.. beeing edo will have helped but i doubt it would make itachi that much slower..
> .


Sasuke was sick in this fight.





But even in these conditions. Sasuke deflect Bee's attack with Hachibi





Edo Itachi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Original Itachi.
Sick Itachi was hit by a Shuriken...




I don't think this Itachi was able  to deflect Bee attack with Hachibi


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2013)

One interpretation is that Itachi knew literally everything- but I can't find anything to support that at all. In fact I only found things to suggest otherwise.

Zetsu said Itachi should be stronger (we know partial Susanoo comes in) but that's about it as far as power goes. It doesn't link to base Itachi, and I remember Zetsu said the precise things that were wrong with base Itachi, namely the shuriken hit and the coughing.

However these are minor factors, so I don't believe the Uchiha fight shouldn't be a solid example. Maybe not for MS Itachi, but defo for base Itachi and base Sasuke.


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## Jυstin (Feb 15, 2013)

Well Itachi already showed Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, and Zetsu was gobsmacked to find out Itachi possessed Susano'o, so my conjecture was Itachi's skill and movements as a whole, with using/executing his techniques and dodging, which is what Zetsu seemed to be inferring by stating his movements were way off, and it wasn't his true power. Not sure what knowledge Itachi exactly possessed, but Zetsu said the difference between what he knew of Itachi and what he saw was severe (and apparently would have lead to Ssauke's death more than once), and judging by his movements after the Uchiha fight, I can see what Zetsu meant. Taking away Itachi's illness and him throwing the fight pretty much equates to him not suffering a scratch, but IC Itachi would throw the fight. Actually, the two wouldn't even instigate a fight IC.

Unless this is assuming a fight were happening anyway, in which case IC would lead to Itachi losing.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2013)

That assumes there's a massive difference with everything aside from key things such as a slight loss in speed and the lacking of more active Susanoo use. 

You did say yourself that your conjecture is that Zetsu referred to overall skill and movement. 
Whereas my interpretation is Zetsu just said overall skill, but not because Itachi underperformed with what he had; he didn't use what he had effectively (Susanoo). This is supported by the total lack of knowledge on Susanoo and Zetsu's satisfaction with everything else (aside from two things he made clear with either words or his reaction, which are the same things he recalled in the end).

Fighting with a disease, wherein your best jutsu is making you cough a lot coupled with its own drawback... that's a severe drawback. Of course, lets not use just Zetsu; let us use Obito. Obito and Zetsu agree there's a difference between an all out Itachi- Obito's discussion makes the Susanoo factor clearer (via imagery) and the illness (by saying it) clearer.

What does this all mean? Well the case I presented suggested that there is a minor difference between the base Itachi in this thread and the one that faced Sasuke.
So it supports the idea that you can use the fight as evidence. Or not, it depends on the interpretation you subscribe to.


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## narutoish (Feb 15, 2013)

Radice said:


> Sasuke was sick in this fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



itachi was at the verge of going blind, and they show that during the fight (can't find the exact page), but the point is, he couldn't even see sasuke, all he could see was a shadowy figure, and that shurikin was meant to be hidden and itachi with his sight had no way of knowing it was there.

as for the fight, itachi has a better katon, and while sasuke has chidori, itachi can use water release, other then that, itachi  outperforms sasuke in terms of intelligence, taijutsu, genjutsu and everything except maybe stamina.


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## Inferno (Feb 16, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> I wouldn't count it outsmarting if the fight was stated to be completely staged by Itachi (entirely for Sasuke's benefit) from the start, including Sasuke's own countermeasures. That puts Itachi in the position of puppet master, and Sasuke the puppet. Unless you're talking outside of the Uchiha "fight".



I'm still sure that Itachi wasn't planning for all of what happened to happen. For instance, I doubt he was expecting to be stabbed in the leg by Sasuke's Shuriken. I doubt he was expecting Sasuke to evade Amaterasu by shedding. I doubt he was expecting Sasuke to use the Katons/Amaterasu to his advantage and form Kirin.

Also, it still stands that Sasuke completely outmaneuvered Deidara, and he also got A and Danzo.



Thunder said:


> Sasuke is intelligent and can devise brilliant strategies when focused, but at the same time he's rash (e.g. attempting to blitz two Akatsuki members and attacking the Kage Summit). This becomes even more apparent when Sasuke's being compared to someone like Itachi, who always maintains his composure and rarely displays any emotions.



Sasuke was able to maintain his composure once against Itachi, so he should be able to again. Well, assuming that Sasuke knowing the truth about Itachi will turn him into a rash, blind fool (which I wouldn't put past him ).


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## Thunder (Feb 16, 2013)

Inferno said:


> Sasuke was able to maintain his composure once against Itachi, so he should be able to again. Well, assuming that Sasuke knowing the truth about Itachi will turn him into a rash, blind fool (which I wouldn't put past him ).



Sure, Sasuke won't do anything stupid against Itachi in-character since that's how their canon fight went. About Sasuke's rashness, I was just speaking in a general sense mind you. 

Smart people can still make poor decisions when they let their emotions take over. But I suspect that Sasuke will become more level-headed after he finds out what he needs to know from the Kage . . . or he'll just become more unstable. We'll see.


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## Kaiser (Feb 16, 2013)

Taijutsu or genjutsu won't play a great role. Sasuke has a greater ninjutsu arsenal, including kirin something Itachi has no counter against without Susanoo. I favor him more times than not


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## IchLiebe (Feb 16, 2013)

Sasuke blitzes him.

Sasuke 10/10 no dif.


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## Rain (Feb 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke blitzes him.
> 
> Sasuke 10/10 no dif.



Come on dude, your posts used to be funny.

You can do better than that.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 16, 2013)

Rain said:


> Come on dude, your posts used to be funny.
> 
> You can do better than that.



Why does it need to be funny? I showed that Itachi loses.


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## Stermor (Feb 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Why does it need to be funny? I showed that Itachi loses.



wasn't that kinda in a genjutsu though??


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## IchLiebe (Feb 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> wasn't that kinda in a genjutsu though??



No, that was full blown real world, no genjutsu, actually happened.


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## Radice (Feb 16, 2013)

narutoish said:


> itachi was at the verge of going blind, and they show that during the fight (can't find the exact page), but the point is, he couldn't even see sasuke, all he could see was a shadowy figure, and that shurikin was meant to be hidden and itachi with his sight had no way of knowing it was there.
> 
> as for the fight, itachi has a better katon, and while sasuke has chidori, itachi can use water release, other then that, itachi  outperforms sasuke in terms of intelligence, taijutsu, genjutsu and everything except maybe stamina.




Sasuke is better Katon user than itachi

*Spoiler*: __ 










And Sasuke has Katon Gorryuuka no jutsu
This Katon is much powerfull than any  katon  technique  Itachi already used






Sasuke can break Tsukyomi.
Then Itachi normal genjutsus is useless against sasuke


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## Stermor (Feb 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> No, that was full blown real world, no genjutsu, actually happened.



then isn't itachi like super fast? sasuke cut him in half and he changed into a crow bunshin and managed to travel to the uchiha tower(hours away for sasuke) near instantly  

would seem more likely that itachi blitzes


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## Stermor (Feb 16, 2013)

Radice said:


> Sasuke can break Tsukyomi.
> Then Itachi normal genjutsus is useless against sasuke



uhm don't quite agree with this.. he broke tsukiyomi(a mild varient as far as we have seen) and it took him quite a long time.. 

itachi's normal genjutsu like for the crimson nail balsem attack only needs to last a split second.. btw sasuke was already having trouble with itachi's shuriken without itachi mixing in genjutsu.. 

while i agree eventually sasuke can break itachi's normal genjutsu.. i really doubt he can given the timeframe itachi needs to kill him.. aswell as all the other crap sasuke has to do at the same time.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> then isn't itachi like super fast? sasuke cut him in half and he changed into a crow bunshin and managed to travel to the uchiha tower(hours away for sasuke) near instantly
> 
> would seem more likely that itachi blitzes



It was a bunshin the whole time. But it takes nothing away as it has nothing saying it's weaker than Itachi like the 30% clone.


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## Stermor (Feb 16, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> It was a bunshin the whole time. But it takes nothing away as it has nothing saying it's weaker than Itachi like the 30% clone.



nothing saying it was even 1% of itachi's power either... anyway itachi accomplished what he needed there.. so you can even say he let sasuke kill the clone.. hell its even likely..


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## IchLiebe (Feb 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> nothing saying it was even 1% of itachi's power either... anyway itachi accomplished what he needed there.. so you can even say he let sasuke kill the clone.. hell its even likely..



It actually takes  but clearly more than 1%. And as seen from every bunshin used, skills are not affected in anyway.


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## Jυstin (Feb 16, 2013)

Is IchLiebe seriously using Sasuke blitzing a clone as a feat? Nowhere in the real fight was Sasuke able to blitz Itachi. Itachi kept pace with Naruto and Bee, whom Sasuke didn't have a prayer keeping up with (not Bee anyway). Also, what would be the point of having a clone fight a full on fight when Itachi's purpose was to have Sasuke fight him while his disease killed him off? Itachi did the same thing to Sasuke that his Genjutsu did, which was tell him he'd grown stronger. Like the Genjutsu, it wasn't serious.

Neither was that whole fight, actually...



> I'm still sure that Itachi wasn't planning for all of what happened to happen. For instance, I doubt he was expecting to be stabbed in the leg by Sasuke's Shuriken.



Zetsu made comments about that. He said his movements were way off, and he even spoke of the shuriken incident specifically. His dodge was pretty shitty compared to the movements he's made elsewhere. He completely evaded Naruto and Bee and covered lots of distance in a short moment, but only resorts to ducking and short hopping a giant shuriken. In short, we've seen MUCH better evasion and movement feats from Itachi outside of a fight where his body's deteriorated and he's throwing the fight.



> I doubt he was expecting Sasuke to evade Amaterasu by shedding.



We actually know he did. For one thing was the fact that his intention was throwing the fight. This wouldn't have been able to happen had he willingly and knowingly scorched Sasuke's body in half. That wasn't his plan at all. He knew Sasuke had Orochimaru in him, and he was able to describe the technique he used to evade it in detail, even telling Sasuke _why_ he would use it over a simple replacement, and he noted that it was _nearly_ undetectable, but not undetectable. Pretty much like not only was he expecting Sasuke to use it, but was counting on it; knowingly forcing him to use it.

Sasuke brought up Itachi's use of MS on top of the list of things he claimed Itachi used to kill him. At this time, a flashback panel of his use of Amaterasu is brought up. Obito said it was only to push Sasuke into a corner and that was it, so he'd expend his chakra (using Oral Rebirth, which he stated to Sasuke it was costly) for Orochimaru to come out. For his plan with the fight to succeed, that Amaterasu had to fail. We're told it was all part of the plan.


Now Sasuke using the heat from Amaterasu for Kirin was smart (though Itachi's feats with Nagato definitely take the cake. From seeing Naruto hit the cerberus once, he knew how to take it down despite its power of multiplication. From seeing Bee fail to save Naruto from Nagato just once, he _quickly_ deduced he and his summons had shared vision, where their blind spots were, and attacked the eyes from those blind spots. Before Chibaku Tensei even formed, Itachi deduced its weakness and that the very nature of the technique would draw their attacks right to it). I don't know if Itachi knew about it or not. Still, the ultimate outsmarting came from Itachi staging the entire fight and Sasuke being none the wiser. Shit, even the readers were more fooled by that than any Genjutsu mindfuck. I always suspected Itachi was a spy, but the revelation about the fight threw my goddamn mind for a loop. He played it out pretty well.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 17, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Is IchLiebe seriously using Sasuke blitzing a clone as a feat? Nowhere in the real fight was Sasuke able to blitz Itachi. Itachi kept pace with Naruto and Bee, whom Sasuke didn't have a prayer keeping up with (not Bee anyway). Also, what would be the point of having a clone fight a full on fight when Itachi's purpose was to have Sasuke fight him while his disease killed him off? Itachi did the same thing to Sasuke that his Genjutsu did, which was tell him he'd grown stronger. Like the Genjutsu, it wasn't serious.



Clones have the same stats as the real one. Like every one says about Bee vs Itachi. Itachi got behind Bee so he blitzed him, but unlike Sasuke he didn't because Bee reacted. But I guess fandom takes priority.


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## Krippy (Feb 17, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Itachi kept pace with Naruto and Bee, whom Sasuke didn't have a prayer keeping up with (not Bee anyway).



Naruto at the time had normal movement speed at the level of the V1 Raikage, who Sasuke kept up with fine. And the only reason Itachi survived against Bee is because he fled and fell back on his MS, which Sasuke hadn't even come close to mastering at the time.


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## Vergil642 (Feb 17, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sick Itachi has generally no chance at outlasting Sasuke without MS techs.



:galacticryoma

You read the manga where Sasuke faced sick Itachi without using MS Jutsu while Itachi was using MS Jutsu and Sasuke ran out of chakra first right?



> His Katons are weaker, his CQC is limited against Chidori, and he's blind.


With CS2 Sasuke's Katon overpowered Itachi's. It boosts the strength of a user's Jutsu and without it, you could at best argue his Katon's are as strong as Itachi's but that's being very generous.

Itachi's shown his CQC is superior enough to Sasuke's (being faster and far more skilled) that he can counter Chidori barehanded. He even has a feat that is only possible if he blocked Chidori with his bare hands. Only reason we don't take that seriously is because it's fucking crazy.

Itachi and Sasuke's fight in the manga featured Itachi being next to blind. He still rocked the sauce's shit while holding back.



> His only chance at defeating him is Genjutsu, but we're all aware Sasuke's base Sharingan controlled Manda.


Why is that even relevant? Genjutsu use=/=Genjutsu breaking.

Itachi can hold Sasuke in a Genjutsu on Genjutsu wrestling match while a KB shanks the wee Uchiha from behind.



> Sasuke defeats his brother with mid difficulty.
> 
> Also hawks be raping them crows.


You're wrong again son 



IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke blitzes him.
> 
> Sasuke 10/10 no dif.



-snip-


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

The question becomes, with all the knowledge granted, who will likely end up needing to resort to the MS first. In answering that question you have the winner of this fight; the one who didn't need to resort to the MS due to the offense of the other.


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## Jυstin (Feb 17, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Naruto at the time had normal movement speed at the level of the V1 Raikage, who Sasuke kept up with fine. And the only reason Itachi survived against Bee is because he fled and fell back on his MS, which Sasuke hadn't even come close to mastering at the time.



Naruto was just an addition to Bee. I know how fast Naruto's shown himself to be, however. Itachi didn't flee from Bee right away. He had a few tussles with him, some parts including Naruto, and had no visible trouble keeping up with him while fighting Naruto, or blocking Bee as he'd attempt to attack him while he was engaging Naruto. He was able to get behind Bee and avoid Bee's counter attack (while not being thrown off balance) while executing his immediate counter attack in the middle of his dodge, throwing Bee off slightly while sticking him with Genjutsu in even the middle of that. That is what led Bee to his 7 swords stance. He tried it on Itachi. We see nothing of Itachi being thrown off balance, while avoiding/parrying (we do see clash marks in the middle of the spinning) without a scratch. Sasuke could not replicate that. When he saw Bee had him outpaced, he could do nothing but get knocked flat on his ass/impaled.

Itachi's use of MS wasn't even in result of "Bee being too much to handle". Firstly, for the bit he and Bee did skirmish, he outperformed Sasuke, and second, his use of MS wasn't even used on Bee. He attempted to use it on Naruto before Kotoamatsukami saved him from being a BBQ.

What I mean is, we saw a difference in how Itachi carried himself vs Bee than how Sasuke did. Itachi wasn't impaled, knocked down, or even thrown off balance. He kept pace with Bee, was able to trade counterattacks without pressure, and was able to avoid what Sasuke could not, without a scratch, even with Naruto (or any addition really) in the mix. I'm not talking about a full battle with Bee. We saw enough of how both brothers carried themselves when they tussled with Bee.

Even Itachi's Genjutsu was more masterful than Sasuke's. He didn't make it obvious. He made it blend with reality, which is why Bee didn't notice it and break it right away, unlike Sasuke who got utterly curbstomped (and subsequently "killed" again) in surprise following his Genjutsu attempt. On top of that, Itachi was even explaining that he was in Genjutsu to _help_ Bee. Sasuke just got one-upped.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Naruto at the time had normal movement speed at the level of the V1 Raikage, who Sasuke kept up with fine.



The situations weren't all that parallel. 

Naruto & Itachi had a extended Taijutsu exchange wherein they were even.

Sasuke narrowly dodged Ei's attack and landed a hit yes, but then was power-bombed into the ground. Ei would've won that exchange, had it not been for Susano'o.


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## Krippy (Feb 17, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Naruto was just an addition to Bee. I know how fast Naruto's shown himself to be, however.


Naruto was holding back


> Itachi didn't flee from Bee right away. He had a few tussles with him some parts including Naruto, and *had no visible trouble keeping up with him *while fighting Naruto, or blocking Bee as he'd attempt to attack him while he was engaging Naruto.


As did Sasuke before he resorted to his seven swords


> He was able to get behind Bee and avoid Bee's counter attack (while not being thrown off balance) while executing his immediate counter attack in the middle of his dodge, throwing Bee off slightly while sticking him with Genjutsu in even the middle of that.


Sasuke outmaneuvered him while not even using his Sharingan

not seeing much of a diffrance here


> That is what led Bee to his 7 swords stance. He tried it on Itachi. We see nothing of Itachi being thrown off balance, while avoiding/parrying (we do see clash marks in the middle of the spinning) without a scratch. Sasuke could not replicate that. When he saw Bee had him outpaced, he could do nothing but get knocked flat on his ass/impaled.


Again, *Itachi survived because he fled after a single panel*

had he stayed in as long as Sasuke did, (5-7 panels iirc) he would have met the same fate


> Itachi's use of MS wasn't even in result of "Bee being too much to handle".


Yes it was, what the hell else was he going to do? his Katons and Genjutsu failed, you think he was going to kunai blitz him? 


> Firstly, for the bit he and Bee did skirmish, he outperformed Sasuke,


not really, even a weakened Sasuke wasn't that far from his full strength brother


> and second, his use of MS wasn't even used on Bee. He attempted to use it on Naruto before Kotoamatsukami saved him from being a BBQ.


He activated it because he had ran out of options at the point to deal with the two of them

unless he has some other base jutsu I missed, he was in a corner and MS got him out



> What I mean is, we saw a difference in how Itachi carried himself vs Bee than how Sasuke did. Itachi wasn't impaled, knocked down, or even thrown off balance. He kept pace with Bee, was able to trade counterattacks without pressure, and was able to avoid what Sasuke could not, without a scratch, even with Naruto (or any addition really) in the mix. I'm not talking about a full battle with Bee. We saw enough of how both brothers carried themselves when they tussled with Bee.


Already addressed all of this 

they did about equally well, taking into account the fact that Sasuke was weakened and had nothing to fall back on that Bee counldn't counter


> Even Itachi's Genjutsu was more masterful than Sasuke's.He didn't make it obvious. He made it blend with reality, which is why Bee didn't notice it and break it right away,


They both bought each of them a second or two of time, the only diffrance was that Sasuke was worn out and was still unfamiliar with using his MS


> unlike Sasuke who got utterly curbstomped (and subsequently "killed" again) in surprise following his Genjutsu attempt. On top of that, Itachi was even explaining that he was in Genjutsu to _help_ Bee. Sasuke just got one-upped.


And Bee didn't have Itachi's back or the element of surprise either

@Rocky

I was comparing their speed, not their overall taijutsu feats


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 17, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Naruto was holding back



evidence ?


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## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2013)

Wow, that's not worth arguing with quote-by-quote. Sasuke was shown being thrown off balance and in shock at Bee's attack, despite avoiding Bee's strikes (until the end).

And Sasuke was so using his Sharingan.

Sasuke was so off-balance that he didn't have the footing to dodge Bee's last strike. Case in point? Itachi dodged every single strike completely. You can't prove for a single moment that Itachi leaped away because he couldn't deal with Bee, when he was shown trading counter attacks with Bee just fine, and putting pressure on Bee. Sasuke charged straight at Bee and Bee intercepted, while Itachi got BEHIND Bee. Itachi traded even blows with Bee along with trading blows with Naruto at the same time (whether Naruto was holding back or not is irrelevant - Bee was not fighting alone and Itachi still had no trouble dodging while dishing blows).

The choice to leap away from Bee weren't exactly Itachi's movement either. Neither was it his choice to use MS on Naruto. You tried to say Itachi fell back on MS because he couldn't deal with Bee, when the MS wasn't even meant for Bee nor was Itachi in control of his actions, as well as the fact that Itachi was having no trouble dealing with Bee before, and was in fact the one showing pressure on Bee.

Itachi and Bee did not just fight for a second. There were a few skirmishes preceding his 7-swords stance, where Itachi had no problems avoiding and pressuring Bee. Sasuke could not, nor did he, replicate this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2013)

I just want to touch on Bee being used as a measure to compare the Uchiha brothers.



Jυstin said:


> Wow, that's not worth arguing with quote-by-quote. Sasuke was shown being thrown off balance and in shock at Bee's attack, despite avoiding Bee's strikes (until the end).
> 
> And Sasuke was so using his Sharingan.
> 
> ...





Stermor said:


> bee casually killed that sasuke 3 times...
> 
> while itachi could keep up with bee equally..
> 
> itachi beats sasuke with much better speed, better jutsu synergy and brains..





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> [You are] comparing an Edo Tensei enhanced Itachi and an injured Sasuke. So an Itachi that wouldn't _necessarily_ get tired with a Sasuke who had some bad wounds.
> 
> Now in this fight, Itachi is weaker than when he faced Bee (he's presumably a living body ITT) and Sasuke is stronger than when he faced Bee (he's not injured).



Killer Bee isn't a good measure to argue for Itachi because Itachi _was_ enhanced with the unlimited (stamina*) benefits of Edo Tensei and Sasuke was still badly injured.

*This definitely affects Taijutsu.

Now depending on what side you stand on, you'll say Itachi has or hasn't got more stamina when he's healthy. Personally I say his 2.5 is reflective because there were no complaints about his chakra capacity.

Itachi is better than Sasuke in Taijutsu, but with knowledge is he really going to use it? They've both got knowledge. If Sasuke knows Itachi's better in Taijutsu, thus will likely synthesis Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Kenjutsu. 

Surely Itachi would be capable of figuring this out too, as such wouldn't waste what little reserves he has on a focusing heavily shinobi art that's not going to cut it.


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## Jυstin (Feb 18, 2013)

ET stamaina means Itachi could keep fighting indefinitely without tiring out, but doesn't enhance Taijutsu ability. Just longevity. Though, I'm not really referring to Taijutsu, just overall movement. I think it was Kishi's way of showing us what Zetsu meant by Itachi's movements being *way* off, by giving us a glimpse of them uninhibited by sickness or kiddie gloves.

I surmise it would be like Itachi vs Bee, using both Taijutsu incorporated with Ninjutsu counters or feints of either two, Genjutsu possibly thrown into the middle (it's been done to many time to rule out, even those who thought Bee wouldn't get caught again).

Though with knowledge, Sasuke won't attack Itachi. Lack of knowledge would put Sasuke to the indefinite advantage, because knowledge or not, IC Itachi will throw the fight.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> ET stamaina means Itachi could keep fighting indefinitely without tiring out, but doesn't enhance Taijutsu ability. Just longevity. Though, I'm not really referring to Taijutsu, just overall movement. I think it was Kishi's way of showing us what Zetsu meant by Itachi's movements being *way* off, by giving us a glimpse of them uninhibited by sickness or kiddie gloves.



If he can keep on doing things that would deplete his stamina forever, then that is quite an enhancement. I never said his Taijutsu _ability_ was enhanced. Though you can say his _ability_ to continue was drastically improved.

High level movement can deplete stamina too~ something Edo Itachi doesn't need to worry about.

I've seen that argument a number of times now, but the only problem I have with the "way off" argument is that we saw the point in the fight Zetsu complained. We even saw it recited when Zetsu was reflecting the fight in his head... it was just one instance. That's important because aside from that everything was, well normal.



> I surmise it would be like Itachi vs Bee, using both Taijutsu incorporated with Ninjutsu counters or feints of either two, Genjutsu possibly thrown into the middle (it's been done to many time to rule out, even those who thought Bee wouldn't get caught again).
> 
> Though with knowledge, Sasuke won't attack Itachi. Lack of knowledge would put Sasuke to the indefinite advantage, because knowledge or not, IC Itachi will throw the fight.



That's fine, however all I'm saying is that it is unfair to compare _Edo_ Itachi's close combat fight with Bee with an _injured_ Sasuke's close combat fight with Bee. 

Why would the lack of knowledge put Sasuke at a disadvantage? Wouldn't the same thing happen? Itachi schools Sasuke in Taijutsu and Sasuke begins to synthesis Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Kenjutsu to regain the floor?

I think Itachi throwing the fight has different meanings for us. For example I believe the only time Itachi threw the fight was when his Susanoo didn't bother attacking Sasuke. In other words I don't think his throwing in the towel will factor in this fight.
That's because the impression I got was that Sasuke prepared for the jutsu Itachi made him expect, and Sasuke did so well enough that Itachi didn't need to pull punches. Susanoo being the exception.


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## Raiken (Feb 19, 2013)

*Base Sharingan Sasuke VS Base Sharingan Itachi:*

Battle Strategy/Intelligence: Itachi > Sasuke
Strength: Itachi = Sasuke
Speed: Itachi > Sasuke
Stamina: Sasuke > Itachi
Ninjutsu: Sasuke > Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi > Sasuke
Taijutsu: Itachi > Sasuke

*Itachi's Advantages:*
Battle Strategy/Intelligence
Speed
Genjutsu
Taijutsu

*Sasuke's Advantages*
Stamina
Ninjutsu

Just putting this out there. In regards to the way I see their respective advantages.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 19, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> *Itachi's Advantages:*
> Battle Strategy/Intelligence
> Speed
> Genjutsu
> ...



I'm curious about some points. Didn't Sasuke canonically beat all Itachi's Genjutsu (including Tsukuyomi) with his base Sharingan? As such, wouldn't that suggest Sasuke's advantage is how he nullifies Genjutsu?

Battle intelligence, surely this goes to Sasuke? Itachi more or less gave him a cheat sheet on what sort of jutsu to expect (except Susanoo) and Sasuke's battle intelligence allowed him to triumph over Itachi's.

And lastly, speed. This I'm just not sure about, unless you're referring to hand seals?


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## Krippy (Feb 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> evidence ?


Naruto only wanted to talk to itachi


Jυstin said:


> Wow, that's not worth arguing with quote-by-quote. Sasuke was shown being thrown off balance and in shock at Bee's attack, despite avoiding Bee's strikes (until the end).


He still was able to counter his attack and avoid any signifigant injury


> And Sasuke was so using his Sharingan.


Not here he wasn't


> Sasuke was so off-balance that he didn't have the footing to dodge Bee's last strike. Case in point? Itachi dodged every single strike completely.


And was he injured at all after the extended 'bout?
How 'bout Itachi after his brief clash?
exactly. Neither suffered any injury against his sword style until Bee caught him off guard in round 2


> You can't prove for a single moment that Itachi leaped away because he couldn't deal with Bee, when he was shown trading counter attacks with Bee just fine, and putting pressure on Bee.


So why did he leave if he was handling him so well earlier?


> Sasuke charged straight at Bee and Bee intercepted, while Itachi got BEHIND Bee.


And Bee knew where he was


> Itachi traded even blows with Bee along with trading blows with Naruto at the same time (whether Naruto was holding back or not is irrelevant - Bee was not fighting alone and Itachi still had no trouble dodging while dishing blows).


Good for him, full strength + no sickness works wonders


> The choice to leap away from Bee weren't exactly Itachi's movement either.


So how much of that fight was Itachi's movement?


> Neither was it his choice to use MS on Naruto. You tried to say Itachi fell back on MS because he couldn't deal with Bee, when the MS wasn't even meant for Bee nor was Itachi in control of his actions,


So how much of Itachi's moves were his own?


> as well as the fact that Itachi was having no trouble dealing with Bee before, and was in fact the one showing pressure on Bee.


not really, they were about even until Itachi fled


> Itachi and Bee did not just fight for a second. There were a few skirmishes preceding his 7-swords stance, where Itachi had no problems avoiding and pressuring Bee. Sasuke could not, nor did he, replicate this.


Neither did he with Sasuke, there was a skirmish before his swords came out where Sasuke outmanuevered Bee w/o needing his Sharigan and not at 100%

So yes, he did infact replicate what Itachi did


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## Shattering (Feb 19, 2013)

Itachi is faster, his eyes are better, smarter, stronger, better with kenjutsu, don't know man, this is a stomp


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## Vergil642 (Feb 19, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm curious about some points. Didn't Sasuke canonically beat all Itachi's Genjutsu (including Tsukuyomi) with his base Sharingan? As such, wouldn't that suggest Sasuke's advantage is how he nullifies Genjutsu?
> 
> Battle intelligence, surely this goes to Sasuke? Itachi more or less gave him a cheat sheet on what sort of jutsu to expect (except Susanoo) and Sasuke's battle intelligence allowed him to triumph over Itachi's.
> 
> And lastly, speed. This I'm just not sure about, unless you're referring to hand seals?



Against an Itachi holding back. Even if we take it all at face value (which in all fairness we have little choice about as those are the feats we have) during their Genjutsu match both were completely vulnerable to outside attack. If Itachi was to set up a KB before engaging in a Genjutsu match he could leave the KB to stab Sasuke in the heart while they're both occupied.

You could argue Sasuke's planning is quite exceptional but Itachi's analytical abilities and ability to see the weakness of a Jutsu and exploit it have recently been proven to be on a level only characters like Minato and Kakashi can match. He seems to retain the intelligence advantage.

As for speed, Itachi keeping up with Naruto and Bee, reacting faster than Sasuke to the same attacks (SM Kabuto's) and the basic statistical advantage still puts him above his brother. Combined with his tremendous Taijutsu skill advantage it makes any hand to hand combat a serious risk for Sasuke.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 19, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> Against an Itachi holding back. Even if we take it all at face value (which in all fairness we have little choice about as those are the feats we have) during their Genjutsu match both were completely vulnerable to outside attack. If Itachi was to set up a KB before engaging in a Genjutsu match he could leave the KB to stab Sasuke in the heart while they're both occupied.



What's your definition of Itachi holding back? Mine is, looking at the fight, an Itachi who doesn't use Susanoo. In other words I'm pretty certain Genjutsu on Sasuke is a waste of chakra. In other words a Bunshin could easily be taken care of, in such a scenario.



> You could argue Sasuke's planning is quite exceptional but Itachi's analytical abilities and ability to see the weakness of a Jutsu and exploit it have recently been proven to be on a level only characters like Minato and Kakashi can match. He seems to retain the intelligence advantage.



The Sharingan allows you to decode a jutsu as well, Itachi used his resource, so what says Sasuke cannot?
Sasuke tricked Itachi twice, once when he evaded Amaterasu and before that when he forced Itachi midair with a decoy Katon to set him up for Chidori.



> As for speed, Itachi keeping up with Naruto and Bee, reacting faster than Sasuke to the same attacks (SM Kabuto's) and the basic statistical advantage still puts him above his brother. Combined with his tremendous Taijutsu skill advantage it makes any hand to hand combat a serious risk for Sasuke.



Sasuke kept up with the Raikage, who was using speed that matched, if not exceeded, the level of speed that Naruto was using on Itachi. 

How did he react faster? The closest example is with Muki Tensei, however the difference was incremental. Sasuke had no choice but to do nothing when he sees a Susanoo arm around himself.

We can't use the statistical advantage as it was explicitly stated that with the MS, Sasuke's scores would improve. It may very well have included the speed department given that he kept up with A (prior the amplified shroud, of course).

With Taijutsu I've always asked this: if Sasuke *knows* his Taijutsu isn't good enough to fight Itachi, then _why_ wouldn't he opt for synthesising Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Kenjutsu? It worked for him the last time. Last time he tried Taijutsu first due to the lack of knowledge, which isn't the case here as he does have knowledge.


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## Jυstin (Feb 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If he can keep on doing things that would deplete his stamina forever, then that is quite an enhancement. I never said his Taijutsu _ability_ was enhanced. Though you can say his _ability_ to continue was drastically improved.
> 
> High level movement can deplete stamina too~ something Edo Itachi doesn't need to worry about.
> 
> I've seen that argument a number of times now, but the only problem I have with the "way off" argument is that we saw the point in the fight Zetsu complained. We even saw it recited when Zetsu was reflecting the fight in his head... it was just one instance. That's important because aside from that everything was, well normal.



That only applies in long drawn out fights, however, where one would staart showing fatigue. It's not the case here. He wasn't in a battle of attrition where infinite stamina would have started showing benefits.

That really was the one instance that mattered too. Zetsu said Itachi should have easily dodged it, suggesting his movement capability to be far greater than we saw. We've seen he's capable of far better movement than that (confirming Zetsu's words), and perception as seen in the fight with Kabuto. His perception in just one instance far outshines Sasuke's (which was the difference between Sasuke standing helplessly while Kabuto had his way with him and Kabuto being cockblocked by Itachi), which has nothing to do with MS.



> That's fine, however all I'm saying is that it is unfair to compare _Edo_ Itachi's close combat fight with Bee with an _injured_ Sasuke's close combat fight with Bee.
> 
> Why would the lack of knowledge put Sasuke at a disadvantage? Wouldn't the same thing happen? Itachi schools Sasuke in Taijutsu and Sasuke begins to synthesis Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Kenjutsu to regain the floor?
> 
> ...



I don't think Itachi being Edo had anything to do with that unless the fight were dragged out. No one was tired out in that encounter. We know ninja are capable of far more stamina-wise, even ones with lower stamina _by ninja standards_. Though I will admit Sasuke was a bit banged up still. On the flip side, Naruto was added to Bee's attack vs Itachi, even if only adding a little. It makes it harder.

Although we see in the fight with Kabuto, Itachi having to save Sasuke multiple times, who was otherwise helpless. This is due to Itachi's superior perception, which Kabuto commented on and praised its usefulness for the fight. Otherwise, Sasuke did pretty well, but Itachi was definitely the superior fighter and strategist, and stayed on top of things while Sasuke seemed generally in the dark to what was going on. He was able to fight and protect Sasuke on more than one occasion. Re-reading that fight now... I just see a pretty large difference between Sasuke and Itachi, and since they pretty much have the same MS power, the difference is between Sasuke and Itachi _themselves_.

See that's the thing. Obito's commentary on Itachi referred in the context of the entire course of the battle, not the end, where Susano'o finally came out. Sasuke stated multiple times where he was almost killed, and Obito said he would have been, had Itachi been serious. Neither Susano'o, or MS in general, is mentioned yet. Sasuke then brought up MS, specifically showing panels of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, in addition to him stating he was almost killed (meaning he was bringing up different instances now). Susano'o has yet to be brought up.

Obito said it was _only_ to push Sasuke into a corner, giving him no more than he could handle (speaking in the context of _intentionally_ giving only what Sasuke could handle, "intentionally" meaning he held back). 

Susano'o is only finally brought up when Obito asked why Sasuke thought Itachi only wanted to push him into a corner, which was when Orochimaru came out and Susano'o sealed him. At that point, Sasuke had already been pushed into a corner. Susano'o wasn't the thing that pushed him, that Obito stated he held back _for the purpose_ of _just_ pushing Sasuke into a corner, because - as I said - by the time Susano'o came out, that had already been accomplished. Susano'o was only for removing Orochimaru and the Cursed Seal, which was part of Itachi's plan. Itachi holding back was everything leading up to that moment, since he was only fighting to push Sasuke into a corner, and not to kill. The fight itself was pretty already over by the time Susano'o finally came out.

And Zetsu's comments on Itachi not showing his true power were not in reference to Susano'o. Zetsu didn't even know Itachi had Susano'o. And to Zetsu, the difference was so much that he said, "That *definitely* wasn't Itachi's true power." and that he believe he'd suffered *sever* injuries prior to the fight. This is, again, not in reference to Susano'o, and he described his movements (plural) as way off, though we're only referenced one. That was the most important one.

Susano'o only had one role in the fight, and Obito pointed that out to us. He pretty much isolated Susano'o from the whole rest of the discussion. If anything, I'd say that's the last thing he held back with. Obito didn't need to convince Sasuke that Itachi never attacked him with it. Sasuke said there were multiple instances before bringing up MS.


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## RBL (Feb 25, 2013)

sasuke uses his eternal mangekyous sharingan, thats not restricted .


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## Larcher (Feb 25, 2013)

They both have little ninjutsu in base just there fire techniques and Saske has lightning techniques so Saske has that advantage but I'm certain it will turn into a taijutsu/kenjutsu for Saske and itachi generally had more better bad ass abilities in terms of taijutsu he's also faster than sauce so I favor itachi 30/50 times though he will have struggle with saske's advantage in ninjutsu.


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## Larcher (Feb 25, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> sasuke uses his eternal mangekyous sharingan, thats not restricted .



Clever he didn't think of that one did he cool rep for you.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 25, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Naruto only wanted to talk to itachi



Yet he was fighting him.


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## Seiji (Feb 25, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> sasuke uses his eternal mangekyous sharingan, thats not restricted .



Yeah because Sauce can still use his EMS without having his Mangekyo eyes. Men why haven't I though of ?! This is brilliant!#%$$!!#11!


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 26, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Although we see in the fight with Kabuto, Itachi having to save Sasuke multiple times, who was otherwise helpless. This is due to Itachi's superior perception, which Kabuto commented on and praised its usefulness for the fight. Otherwise, Sasuke did pretty well, but Itachi was definitely the superior fighter and strategist, and stayed on top of things while Sasuke seemed generally in the dark to what was going on. He was able to fight and protect Sasuke on more than one occasion. Re-reading that fight now... I just see a pretty large difference between Sasuke and Itachi, and since they pretty much have the same MS power, the difference is between Sasuke and Itachi _themselves_.


Oh let's tell the entire story Mr.

Sasuke also saved Itachi multiple times.

In without his assistance.

In fact the Itachi to Sasuke save ratio in regards to that fight was 2 to 3(Sasuke saving that ass on three occasions)

Let's not tell half truths.

Itachi was definitely the superior strategist?

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Sasuke taking initiative 

Sasuke taking initiative 

Sasuke taking inititative

Sasuke taking initiative 

Sasuke taking initiative

Granted Itachi definitely had his input 1, 2, 3
,4,5, 6, 7,8, 9

While on the surface that may seem to be the case.

Itachi was only more active on the offensive end.(Which is expected as he insisted Sasuke could not kill Kabuto)

Where as Sasuke was more active on the defensive end.

His essential strategy? Stall for Izanami.

So when you brand Itachi the superior fighter and strategist base off that fight, note that the condition was tailored to suit more of Itachi's strength more so than Sasuke.

Considering Sasuke's MS jutsu all revolve around manipulating the flames of Amaterasu, I'd say he was out of his comfort zone in that match up.

So when you are rereading the fight, make sure you do so without the Itachi tented goggles, mate.(Because Iphr0z3nI does it much better)

Itachi solo feats in that match up only consist of largely Izanami, which Sasuke had no knowledge of.

Much of Itachi's strategies involved his brother.

Sasuke on the other hand was able to counter Muki tensei and Kabuto's last assault on Itachi, on his own.

The difference was Izanami, as none of their offensive maneuvers prior to worked. 

In terms of taking the lead.

It started off neutral, then the rest of 579 Sasuke took the lead.

580 consisted of Itachi saving Sasuke, taking the lead shortly after.

581 was deadlock for much of the chapter, but Itachi took the lead in it's conclusion.

582 was when Sasuke returned the favor, and took the lead.(Although Itachi dominated the dialogue for much of the fight)

585 was neutral, then Sasuke took the lead, but Itachi was the one who came up with the counter to Kabuto's genjutsu.

586 Sasuke saved Itachi for the second time in the match up, which allowed Itachi to finish the fight with Izanami.

So again what fight are you reading?(Iphr0z3nI is clearly reading the same fight, but somehow isn't getting the same interpretation as yourself)

Oh, you might say a difference of opinion, but I'm clearly showcasing every intricate detail to that match up.

And the manga is validating what I'm citing down to the letter.



> See that's the thing. Obito's commentary on Itachi referred in the context of the entire course of the battle, not the end, where Susano'o finally came out. Sasuke stated multiple times where he was almost killed, and Obito said he would have been, had Itachi been serious. Neither Susano'o, or MS in general, is mentioned yet. Sasuke then brought up MS, specifically showing panels of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, in addition to him stating he was almost killed (meaning he was bringing up different instances now). Susano'o has yet to be brought up.


Nope.

Obito's commentary cites nothing but Itachi being able to win had he been serious.

Sasuke brought up the MS, and it showcased the times in which Itachi had the clear advantage.

I believe the text on that page also cited "I was almost killed more than once"

And what other instances did Itachi have the clear advantage other than when he utilized the Mangekyou?

But we all know Susano, was needed otherwise...

The bottom line is that Itachi could have won the fight, when wasn't specified but it's irrelevant IMO.

Itachi could probably have just "Totsuka blitzed" Sasuke the first few minutes of the fight, had he been serious.



> Obito said it was _only_ to push Sasuke into a corner, giving him no more than he could handle (speaking in the context of _intentionally_ giving only what Sasuke could handle, "intentionally" meaning he held back).


Which was already made clear with his previous reiteration, of Itachi could have won had he been serious.

But in Sasuke's defense the only clear portion of the battle in which Itachi held back, was when Susano was utilzied.

Itachi even in his Edo showcasing, never showed anything that could alter the pre SUSANO portion of that fight.



> Susano'o is only finally brought up when Obito asked why Sasuke thought Itachi only wanted to push him into a corner, which was when Orochimaru came out and Susano'o sealed him. At that point, Sasuke had already been pushed into a corner. Susano'o wasn't the thing that pushed him, that Obito stated he held back _for the purpose_ of _just_ pushing Sasuke into a corner, because - as I said - by the time Susano'o came out, that had already been accomplished. Susano'o was only for removing Orochimaru and the Cursed Seal, which was part of Itachi's plan. Itachi holding back was everything leading up to that moment, since he was only fighting to push Sasuke into a corner, and not to kill. The fight itself was pretty already over by the time Susano'o finally came out.


But Itachi already confirmed to the reader that Susano'o was needed.

And you're quote wrong Susano was the thing that pushed him into a corner because without it, Itachi would have been obliterated.
(That selective reading again)

It was Itachi surviving Kirin, that prompted Sasuke to try to draw out the reserved chakara that was being used to keep Oro at bay.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 26, 2013)

Please don't ignore manga canon.(Against me, that's a mistake)

Susano wasn't only for removing Oro, without it Itachi would have been obliterated. 

Itachi holding back was him not winning the fight, period.

You've produced nothing to support your point.

You post accurate x, y, z information, but then make a LEAP to alpha, beta, and gamma. 

There's nothing to support Itachi held anything back prior to Susano.

Tsukuyomi hasn't been broken sense.

And Oro rebirth is still seen as an adequate counter to Amaterasu(although that's questionable)

And on top of that, you have Itachi specifically citing to have needed Susano, to survive Kirin.

That selective reading you're on, isn't going to get you far against me, good sir.



> And Zetsu's comments on Itachi not showing his true power were not in reference to Susano'o. Zetsu didn't even know Itachi had Susano'o. And to Zetsu, the difference was so much that he said, "That *definitely* wasn't Itachi's true power." and that he believe he'd suffered *sever* injuries prior to the fight. This is, again, not in reference to Susano'o, and he described his movements (plural) as way off, though we're only referenced one. That was the most important one.


Itachi not showing his true power was a myth, that was busted.

Edo Itachi netted almost the same showcasing he demonstrated against Sasuke.

Edo Itachi trumps were Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano.

What Zetsu didn't know was Itachi was suffering for blindness/A disease.

When he prompted Itachi could have avoided Sasuke's Fuma Shuriken trick he was unaware this was the state of his vision.

Zetsu knew nothing of what was going on with Itachi, thus is where Obito came in.

Zetsu assessment should have been thrown out the window in light of Obito giving us the "Real deal" about Itachi's condition.(Disease, holding back, (And we the readers already were made aware of his eye problems) 



> Susano'o only had one role in the fight, and Obito pointed that out to us. He pretty much isolated Susano'o from the whole rest of the discussion. If anything, I'd say that's the last thing he held back with. Obito didn't need to convince Sasuke that Itachi never attacked him with it. Sasuke said there were multiple instances before bringing up MS.


Two roles mate, and Itachi gave us the FIRST ONE, which you so conveniently ignored. 

And Obito never really isolated anything.(You did)

Whether Itachi held back the entire match or solely with Susano is for the most part a mystery.

However theirs more evidence to confirm the later.

Edo Itachi hasn't demonstrated anything new to change the results of the pre-Susano match.

Again Tsukuyomi has only been broken by Sasuke.

"Oral Rebirth" is still to this day considered a adequate counter to Amaterasu (Although that's questionable outside of the situation Sasuke was in)

etc. etc.

Itachi has had no significant success offensively in base, at any point within the manga.

He's showcase some promise here, and there but he's mostly A DEFENSIVE FIGHTER IN BASE.

(Bushin feints and Genjutsu clones are utilized most often to avoid being hit)

Meanwhile Sasuke, has had some potent offensive feats in base.

His raitons are miles ahead of Itachi's suitons, and has showcased himself to be just as efficient if not better than his brother in the Katon element.

If push come to shove their always Kirin, which is a confirmed base Itachi killer.

That superior strategist and 5.0 in the intel department isn't going to mean much, going against a person who spent a good portion of his life trying to be the later.  

You Itachi fans attempt to play down Sasuke's success in his match up against Itachi, ignoring that Sasuke actually TRAINED FOR YEARS to combat Itachi.(Although it wasn't enough)

You Itachi fans attempt to play down Sasuke's success in his match up against Itachi, ignoring that Sasuke actually tried his hardest in his youth to be itachi.

So yea, you can arbitrate he was HOLDING BACK THE ENTIRE TIME, but good luck trying to find sufficient evidence to support it.

There team up, as well as that match BOTH TELL THE SAME STORY.

Sasuke is quite capable of mimicking big bro, when he needs too.

Much of the inspiration for Hebi Sauce, came from Itachi's character.

Itachi hasn't showcased anything significant offensively in base to convince me he could take out Sasuke before Kirin.

A head Katon match up would likely end in Sasuke's favor, again.

And Sasuke applying raiton to his weapons, allows him to gain the advantage if push comes to shove in that area.

The reality in regards to this match up, is will almost always come down to ninjutsu.

And Sasuke holds the advantage in that department.


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## Soul (Feb 26, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sick Itachi has generally no chance at outlasting Sasuke without MS techs.



That doesn't even make sense.
He almost outlasted him while using MS; not using them will make Itachi win a battle of attrition.



> his CQC is limited against Chidori



What?
He can easily evade Chidori using Sharingan Precognition.



> and he's blind.



He blinded himself via MS Ninjutsu; something he won't use here.



> His only chance at defeating him is Genjutsu, but we're all aware Sasuke's base Sharingan controlled Manda.



That isn't a real argument, as summons don't really have a great Genjutsu defense.



> Sasuke defeats his brother with mid difficulty.



Not so sure about that.


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## Krippy (Feb 26, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yet he was fighting him.



but not fighting to kill

intelligence is the only thing Itachi has going for him here, and it won't be enough to win this


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> but not fighting to kill
> 
> intelligence is the only thing Itachi has going for him here, and it won't be enough to win this



So you were under the impression that Itachi believed he could kill Naruto with punches and kicks ? 

They were just fightin with taijutsu. I want to know what Naruto held back there.


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## Brown Dick (Feb 26, 2013)

Honestly, Itachi wins low-med. How will Sasuke even be able to see Itachis hand signs when neither he or Kabuto could? Itachi wasn't even trying and he had Kakashi, Kurenai and Asuma to the edges. Sasuke can have more ninjutsu and it wouldn't mean cut. Kakashi probably has 10 times more jutsu than him and he doesn't even hold a candle to him.
Itachi is too fast and strong and would defeat him before he can use any of his big jutsu.


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## Stermor (Feb 26, 2013)

no reason to think sasuke can survive crimson nail balsem.. he has weaker reactions, genjutsu and he doesn't have really strong skin.. all of these things bee had plus much faster speed itself.. and he still couldn't avoid the jutsu(just block).. 

anyway sasuke dies from this 1 second into the fight.. he just doesn't have any feats suggesting he could stop it..



Krippy said:


> No, I was under the impression that Naruto had no killer intent when he fought him
> 
> I was refering to the altercation in general, not that specific portion of the fight



naruto had no killer intent.. it was extremly likely he wasn't going all out.. but naruto wasnt going extra slow either.. 

anyway itachi keeping up is still leaques beyond sasuke.. since not going all out while beeing faster then v2A doesn't really mean he was just going at v1 speeds(quite a gap between v1 and v2) and even in V1 sasuke was not dominant at all, he was just able to react..


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## Jυstin (Feb 26, 2013)

Yes. The fight with Bee and Naruto showed Itachi has superior movement, Taijutsu, and Ninj/Genjutsu timing (or non-wasteful utilization in mid-combat). The Kabuto fight showed Itachi had superior perception, insight, reaction, and intellect in battle. The difference between them is definitely not power. I think Sasuke has that in spades.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> No, I was under the impression that Naruto had no killer intent when he fought him



When they fought both used punches, kicks, evades and blocks.

Tell me what did Itachi do that Naruto didn't, or vice versa.




> I was refering to the altercation in general, not that specific portion of the fight



Itachi vs Naruto&B lasted few pages. So I am not sure what do you mean by saying you were speaking in general.


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## Krippy (Feb 26, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When they fought both used punches, kicks, evades and blocks.
> 
> Tell me what did Itachi do that Naruto didn't, or vice versa.
> 
> Itachi vs Naruto&B lasted few pages. So I am not sure what do you mean by saying you were speaking in general.



Naruto used none of his ninjutsu at close range or at long range like he would if he was fighting to kill

I don't understand what it is you are asking for


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## Jυstin (Feb 26, 2013)

He's pointing out that neither did Itachi. In fights, there can be times in a fight where two opponents engage in Taijutsu, without throwing Nin or Genjutsu into the middle of it. Naruto was just an addition to Itachi's focus.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 26, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Yes. The fight with Bee and Naruto showed Itachi has superior movement, Taijutsu, and Ninj/Genjutsu timing (or non-wasteful utilization in mid-combat). The Kabuto fight showed Itachi had superior perception, insight, reaction, and intellect in battle. The difference between them is definitely not power. I think Sasuke has that in spades.



Yea, no that shit invalid.

Superior movement? Where?

Sasuke faced the faced a faster bee and Raikage.

Better taijutsu? Perhaps, but the difference in negligible. 
Neither brother has a significant entry in that department to make a different.

Nin/Gin timing? You sure about that? Sasuke has an adequate showcasing in that as well.

The Kabuto battle showed superior insight, but everything else not so much.(Itachi's perception cost him dearly if I recall)

And just how perceptive was he here.

So how much of your assessment is proven?

You have a habit of citing superiority in things you couldn't possibly measure superiority in.

You have a habit of citing superiority in things not actually supported by manga text.

But I guess that's those Itachi tented goggles you're reading with.


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## Stermor (Feb 26, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yea, no that shit invalid.
> 
> Superior movement? Where?
> 
> Sasuke faced the faced a faster bee and Raikage.



kinda got raped in both fights(in cqc).. getting raped by faster people is not really a way to say he's faster.. 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Nin/Gin timing? You sure about that? Sasuke has an adequate showcasing in that as well.



not even close to itachi's combo's.. 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> The Kabuto battle showed superior insight, but everything else not so much.(Itachi's perception cost him dearly if I recall)
> 
> And just how perceptive was he here.



again itachi did something sasuke just had to be protected or he would have died from the first assualt from kabuto.. 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> So how much of your assessment is proven?
> 
> You have a habit of citing superiority in things you couldn't possibly measure superiority in.
> 
> ...



sorry but you use feats to make sasuke better where he was horrible outmatched.. aren't you kinda calling the the kettle black??


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 26, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Naruto used none of his ninjutsu at close range or at long range like he would if he was fighting to kill
> 
> I don't understand what it is you are asking for





Jυstin said:


> He's pointing out that neither did Itachi. In fights, there can be times in a fight where two opponents engage in Taijutsu, without throwing Nin or Genjutsu into the middle of it. Naruto was just an addition to Itachi's focus.



Exactly this.

"Naruto held back against Itachi" is purely fanmade.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 26, 2013)

Stermor said:


> kinda got raped in both fights(in cqc).. getting raped by faster people is not really a way to say he's faster..


Oh lord, this was your long mans' fight, but anyone can get it.

First and foremost I was referring to speed.

His comment was Itachi have superior "movement"

For which I contested.

And FYI, Itachi didn't quite fare to well against Bee's seven sword dance either.(He fled, mate)

Itachi has no significant (CQC) feats regardless, so it's erroneous to your overarching argument.



> not even close to itachi's combo's..


I don't quite think you know how this works, I'm a "Show me state"

You ain't supporting your assessments with panels, you ain't saying much. 

And FYI, Sasuke has much more fights than Itachi.(I didn't quite show you everything neither)



> again itachi did something sasuke just had to be protected or he would have died from the first assualt from kabuto..


And Itachi would have been rewritten in the second and third.
(Oh look Itachi is requesting aid from Sasuke)

Was that before or after he finished apologizing to Sasuke for fucking up.




> sorry but you use feats to make sasuke better where he was horrible outmatched.. aren't you kinda calling the the kettle black??


No, I use feats to support my assessment.

I was arbitrating Sasuke's movement speed.

I was arbitrating Sasuke's nin/gen timing.

(You don't even know WHAT I arbitrating, and as a result you look kinda silly at the moment)

Please oh please, don't step into the hot seat without first knowing what it consist of.

Calling the kettle black? That's cute for someone whose posted nothing but hot air, thus far.

Why don't you start supporting your assessment, then maybe, just maybe, you can think about running a block your boy.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 28, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> That only applies in long drawn out fights, however, where one would staart showing fatigue. It's not the case here. He wasn't in a battle of attrition where infinite stamina would have started showing benefits.
> 
> That really was the one instance that mattered too. Zetsu said Itachi should have easily dodged it, suggesting his movement capability to be far greater than we saw. We've seen he's capable of far better movement than that (confirming Zetsu's words), and perception as seen in the fight with Kabuto. His perception in just one instance far outshines Sasuke's (which was the difference between Sasuke standing helplessly while Kabuto had his way with him and Kabuto being cockblocked by Itachi), which has nothing to do with MS.



Actually it applies to every shinobi fight. Itachi needs to make a choice to delegate stamina to Taijutsu or Ninjutsu. Living Itachi must make the choice, Edo Itachi doesn't. 
The cost is more pronounced in long drawn fights, but it doesn't mean it isn't present in shortener fights.

I don't understand where _far greater_ comes from 'cause dodging the shuriken was the only measure. Itachi was close-ish to dodging. But he didn't dodge, he couldn't. A healthy Itachi could easily dodge that, but it doesn't have any drastic implications outside of that.
What we saw wasn't too different from what he displayed against Sasuke, minus the coughing and the failing to dodge the shuriken- which are the main things Zetsu complained about.

Sasuke _couldn't_ react because Itachi was a second faster and smothered him with Susanoo. It isn't that Sasuke couldn't react, Itachi even apologised for underestimating Sasuke. In short the difference between their reaction times is an incremental one.



> Itachi was definitely the superior fighter and strategist, and stayed on top of things while Sasuke seemed generally in the dark to what was going on. He was able to fight and protect Sasuke on more than one occasion. Re-reading that fight now... I just see a pretty large difference between Sasuke and Itachi, and since they pretty much have the same MS power, the difference is between Sasuke and Itachi _themselves_.



I just re-read the fight and I saw Itachi being bailed out more times than Sasuke. Furthermore Sasuke wasn't in the dark, for instance when Itachi seemed clueless about what to do when Kimimaro's bones came up, Sasuke took command. 
Aside from small things like that, I see no big difference. Itachi just called the shots, that's it. That's not to say Sasuke wasn't capable on his own; Sasuke has shown in his previous fights he can be as, if not more, innovative than Itachi against high level foes. 
MS Sasuke was testing his powers, remember so now as he is well in tune with his powers he won't be testing anything now. He'll go for what is efficient as he's always done.



> See that's the thing. Obito's commentary on Itachi referred in the context of the entire course of the battle, not the end, where Susano'o finally came out. Sasuke stated multiple times where he was almost killed, and Obito said he would have been, had Itachi been serious. Neither Susano'o, or MS in general, is mentioned yet. Sasuke then brought up MS, specifically showing panels of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, in addition to him stating he was almost killed (meaning he was bringing up different instances now). Susano'o has yet to be brought up.



Lets see the commentary:
Sasuke said he was almost killed multiple times; we see Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.
Obito then says if Itachi wanted, Sasuke would be dead. However no-one ever asserted those two jutsu were hindered, or that anything was hindered.

Later we learn that Susanoo can be used partially and that in-itself makes the difference explicit. Itachi held back by not using his most powerful weapon. 
No jutsu is brought up, so it is up to us to look at the fights and draw our own conclusions. I see no reason to assert that Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu were hindered, but I see Susanoo wasn't even used to so much as harm Sasuke slightly. Ergo Occam's Razor: Susanoo not being used = Itachi holding back.



> Obito said it was _only_ to push Sasuke into a corner, giving him no more than he could handle (speaking in the context of _intentionally_ giving only what Sasuke could handle, "intentionally" meaning he held back).



I know, but we have different ideas. I believe Susanoo was *the only thing* Sasuke couldn't handle. I can't see any reason to lump the rest there.



> And Zetsu's comments on Itachi not showing his true power were not in reference to Susano'o. Zetsu didn't even know Itachi had Susano'o. And to Zetsu, the difference was so much that he said, "That *definitely* wasn't Itachi's true power." and that he believe he'd suffered *sever* injuries prior to the fight. This is, again, not in reference to Susano'o, and he described his movements (plural) as way off, though we're only referenced one. That was the most important one.



Itachi didn't show his true power because he wasn't at his peak, he wasn't showing his power as the infamous Uchiha murderer. 
The movement is a good point, but lets not get carried away here. We've only one instance, just one, where it was a problem. Furthermore coughing blood... anyone would think that implicates severe injuries.



> Susano'o only had one role in the fight, and Obito pointed that out to us. He pretty much isolated Susano'o from the whole rest of the discussion. If anything, I'd say that's the last thing he held back with. Obito didn't need to convince Sasuke that Itachi never attacked him with it. Sasuke said there were multiple instances before bringing up MS.



Given I tackled the bulk of this already, I'll introduce questions of my own.

Why should we assume that Obito was referencing *everything* in Itachi's arsenal and not purely Susanoo? 
Why should we generalise that _all_ Itachi's movements were way off when it was only a problem _once?_

The answers to these will shed light on the matter and thus provide implications, or even a clearer insight, to how this battle will end.


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## Jυstin (Feb 28, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually it applies to every shinobi fight. Itachi needs to make a choice to delegate stamina to Taijutsu or Ninjutsu. Living Itachi must make the choice, Edo Itachi doesn't.
> The cost is more pronounced in long drawn fights, but it doesn't mean it isn't present in shortener fights.
> 
> I don't understand where _far greater_ comes from 'cause dodging the shuriken was the only measure. Itachi was close-ish to dodging. But he didn't dodge, he couldn't. A healthy Itachi could easily dodge that, but it doesn't have any drastic implications outside of that.
> ...



Yes but this would be the case with _every_ character. We don't see other character's physical movement blown out of proportions. We only see them not tiring out. This would be to suggest that Itachi's stamina is so terrible that the little bit of movement he did would normally have exhausted him, when we've seen him blow WAY more stamina in more dire circumstances. If were a fight as long as Madara's, and he was keeping pace without tiring, then I would agree, but what we saw wasn't nearly drawn out enough for his infinite stamina to matter, the same that his regeneration didn't matter since he wasn't hit.

I'm going by context of Zetsu's words. Itachi was off enough to say that it *definitely* wasn't Itachi's true power (signifying that it was hugely obvious to him), and that he believed Itachi had suffered *severe* injuries prior to the fight. The key word is "severe", showing Zetsu is suggesting the difference between what Zetsu knew of Itachi and what he saw was substantial, or "severe".

Case in point. Itachi reacted faster, though before that, before Itachi took the hit while protecting Sasuke, Itachi protected Sasuke from Kabuto while Sasuke was still holding his ears and immobilized, with no implications that that was going to change.



> I just re-read the fight and I saw Itachi being bailed out more times than Sasuke. Furthermore Sasuke wasn't in the dark, for instance when Itachi seemed clueless about what to do when Kimimaro's bones came up, Sasuke took command.
> Aside from small things like that, I see no big difference. Itachi just called the shots, that's it. That's not to say Sasuke wasn't capable on his own; Sasuke has shown in his previous fights he can be as, if not more, innovative than Itachi against high level foes.
> MS Sasuke was testing his powers, remember so now as he is well in tune with his powers he won't be testing anything now. He'll go for what is efficient as he's always done.



Well Itachi had to instruct Sasuke not to kill Kabuto, first off. He even used wisdom against Kabuto to prevent him from swaying Sasuke to joining him (I don't know if it was needed, but Sasuke's reactions were those of wonder and puzzlement). He protected Sasuke on more than one occasion, while Sasuke protected Itachi in response to Itachi taking the hit while protecting Sasuke. Itachi's insight allowed him to see Kabuto would go for Sasuke first, even before Kabuto executed his paralyzing attack Itachi was rushing to Sasuke, and resulted in him cockblocking Kabuto and having Kabuto dumbfounded and thinking Itachi could sense him. Sasuke held his position of helplessness throughout the whole ordeal, and was losing control of his Susano'o.

The brunt of that fight was really Kabuto fighting Itachi. Itachi ultimately had a plan and knew the weakness of Edo Tensei. I won't say Sasuke was completely like Harry Potter when he was witnessing the fight between Dumbledore and Voldemort, but he did get knocked away a few times. He helped out more though, even though Itachi was mainly calling the shots. Sasuke did know what to do with Kimimaro's attack, but it's not to say Itachi did not. In this page, you see both brothers looking at the attack, but only Sasuke displayed surprise by the "!". I just don't think Itachi voiced it, the same way neither voiced what to do when they wordlessly both cast Amaterasu on Kidomaru's webs.

Just in general though, Sasuke seemed more like support.




> Lets see the commentary:
> Sasuke said he was almost killed multiple times; we see Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.
> Obito then says if Itachi wanted, Sasuke would be dead. However no-one ever asserted those two jutsu were hindered, or that anything was hindered.
> 
> ...



No no no.

this

Sasuke first states that he was almost killed *multiple times*. This is one separate item in his rebuttal to Itachi "wanting to protect" him. Obito rebuts saying that Sasuke would have been, had Itachi been serious. MS is not brought up yet.

It is after Obito's rebuttal that Sasuke brings up, "He _*even*_ ["even" as in, "in addition to what I brought up before"] tried to kill me with Mangekyou Sharingan" as another separate item in his rebuttal. It is then that Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are referenced, but not yet Susano'o. Obito rebuts this by saying that that too was just part of his plan, and it was only to drive Sasuke into a corner.

Obito then specifically references what this reason was for. It was to exhaust Sasuke so Orochimaru could come out.. Susano'o's role only came into play *AFTER* Orochimaru came out. Obito's rebuttals only held relevance to everything prior to that point. Susano'o's purpose is only brought up with the phrase "freedom from the cursed seal". That's all it did. Sasuke was already spent before that.



> I know, but we have different ideas. I believe Susanoo was *the only thing* Sasuke couldn't handle. I can't see any reason to lump the rest there.



Well we do know for one thing that had Itachi not stopped Amaterasu, or burned Sasuke's upper half instead, he'd have been dead before he could use Oral Rebirth, but we initially thought he did this just to preserve Sasuke's eyes. Anyway, I stated above why I believe Obito didn't even include Susano'o in his rebuttals to Sasuke, going contextually.



> Itachi didn't show his true power because he wasn't at his peak, he wasn't showing his power as the infamous Uchiha murderer.
> The movement is a good point, but lets not get carried away here. We've only one instance, just one, where it was a problem. Furthermore coughing blood... anyone would think that implicates severe injuries.



That is what I mean though. The peak Zetsu was referring to was definitely not "using Susano'o to crush Sasuke", because this was coming from Zetsu, who prior to the fight had not known that Itachi possessed Susano'o. That's not the context in which he was speaking. Zetsu's comments throughout the fight (as well as his own nature for spying) suggested he'd observed Itachi before, numerous times. He stated his movements were way off, too. Coughing up blood was just one of the points Zetsu listed when surmising that Itachi had suffered sever injuries. Hell, in Naruto, characters can cough up blood just by being punched in the gut. Zetsu in general was saying that Itachi was pretty far off the mark from what he was capable of (and this is barring Susano'o, which goes hand-in-hand with Obito's own breakdown of the fight, contextually).

Though, Obito did say that Itachi's body was "eaten up by disease", which infers his body was in terrible shape to be "eaten up" by it, to the point of needing medicine just to keep himself from dying before the fight. His body was that far gone. Something like that would severely hinder one's movement capacity, even more so than old age (Hiruzen's case).



> Why should we assume that Obito was referencing *everything* in Itachi's arsenal and not purely Susanoo?
> Why should we generalise that _all_ Itachi's movements were way off when it was only a problem _once?_
> 
> The answers to these will shed light on the matter and thus provide implications, or even a clearer insight, to how this battle will end.



I did address it above. Obito's comments are in context with Zetsu's own, as they give a second witness. Zetsu was not referring to Susano'o, as he didn't know Itachi possessed it. Obito's breakdown of the fight gave reason to what purpose Itachi had for holding back. Sasuke states he was almost killed *multiple* times (Susano'o never attacked Sasuke, so it did not almost kill him, and Sasuke said "multiple" times). Obito says that was because Itachi was not being serious and (later in the discussion) that "Itachi let you defeat him" (this is a general statement). Sasuke THEN references Mangekyou Sharingan as a separate instance, in addition to his previous argument, with Obito stating it was just part of the plan to simply push Sasuke into a corner, and we THEN see the references to Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (not Susano'o), to show what Sasuke was referring to and what Obito was referring to with his rebuttal to it. The part of the fight Susano'o took part in wasn't referenced until Obito asked what reason Itachi had to drive him into a corner.

As for Zetsu, his surmising of "that definitely wasn't Itachi's true power" was more than just a nitpick at him not dodging one rigged shuriken. He was assessing Itachi's power as a whole, and listing different things such as coughing up blood, his movements being off. It was all in the context of Itachi not showing his true power. This was given a double witness by Obito who broke down the fight and told Sasuke Itachi was letting him win. We then get feats from Itachi over 100 chapters later which pretty greatly outstrip Itachi's sick/letting-Sasuke-win feats and serves to allow us to see what was meant by Zetsu and Obito's words. It's a triple witness and works in context with Obito's and Zetsu's assessments.


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## Totsuka Blitz (Mar 2, 2013)

Itachi is faster and has better Taijutsu than Sasuke. While Sasuke has better Ninjutsu variation, stamina and can fly (oh yeah Hawk is a pretty cool summon).Sasuke is smart but I feel Itachi is a better tactician.  I would have handed Sasuke the victory for his Chidori Nagashi advantage but then I realized that Itachi can use clones. I think this factor makes Itachi the victor here.


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## Jυstin (Mar 2, 2013)

Just noticed something. Sasuke lacks Orochimaru's powers. This means that, were the fight recreated, this here would have probably been the end for Sasuke.

In the end, we have multiple accounts for that fight, covering different angles, all for the purpose of explaining that Itachi let Sasuke win (be it by lack of aggression, full use of body and jutsu, not using certain jutsu, not capitalizing on opportunities, slowing himself down, or any combination of them all). I just know that Obito and Sasuke were describing aspects of the fight other than/prior to Susano'o, and Zetsu's assessment of Itachi's true power definitely didn't amount to his ability to dodge rigged shuriken.

Itachi's always been portrayed on top of things, and as superior. I do believe Sasuke's eyes have greater potential, however, they have yet to reach their full potential.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 2, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Yes but this would be the case with _every_ character. We don't see other character's physical movement blown out of proportions. We only see them not tiring out. This would be to suggest that Itachi's stamina is so terrible that the little bit of movement he did would normally have exhausted him, when we've seen him blow WAY more stamina in more dire circumstances. If were a fight as long as Madara's, and he was keeping pace without tiring, then I would agree, but what we saw wasn't nearly drawn out enough for his infinite stamina to matter, the same that his regeneration didn't matter since he wasn't hit.
> 
> 
> Case in point. Itachi reacted faster, though before that, before Itachi took the hit while protecting Sasuke, Itachi protected Sasuke from Kabuto while Sasuke was still holding his ears and immobilized, with no implications that that was going to change.



Going by his 2.5 rating, we're not exactly meant to think his stamina is superb. Whenever a shinobi has below average stamina, that has to be considered.

What context? Zetsu was right, Itachi wasn't at full power.
However we seem to differ on what that means. I think the small instances Zetsu complained about aren't present with a healthy Itachi in addition to Itachi using partial Susanoos. Nothing more; nothing less. Coughing blood would make an observer say Itachi's injuries were severe.

How much faster? Just incrementally, certainly not enough to make a large difference. If there was a large gap, he would have not apologised to Sasuke for underestimating him. Furthermore Sasuke has shown he can land attacks on Itachi, despite his reactions c.f. the instance in the cave.

The instance you're referring too doesn't imply Itachi>Sasuke in reaction in the slightest. Sasuke had Susanoo up, but had to shut it down, Susanoo causes additional pain. Itachi knew who Kabuto would target... It was more common sense. Not that Itachi did this faster than Sasuke; Sasuke couldn't simply reactivate Susanoo after he deactivated it for a reason.



> Well Itachi had to instruct Sasuke not to kill Kabuto, first off. He even used wisdom against Kabuto to prevent him from swaying Sasuke to joining him (I don't know if it was needed, but Sasuke's reactions were those of wonder and puzzlement). He protected Sasuke on more than one occasion, while Sasuke protected Itachi in response to Itachi taking the hit while protecting Sasuke. Itachi's insight allowed him to see Kabuto would go for Sasuke first, even before Kabuto executed his paralyzing attack Itachi was rushing to Sasuke, and resulted in him cockblocking Kabuto and having Kabuto dumbfounded and thinking Itachi could sense him. Sasuke held his position of helplessness throughout the whole ordeal, and was losing control of his Susano'o.
> 
> The brunt of that fight was really Kabuto fighting Itachi. Itachi ultimately had a plan and knew the weakness of Edo Tensei. I won't say Sasuke was completely like Harry Potter when he was witnessing the fight between Dumbledore and Voldemort, but he did get knocked away a few times. He helped out more though, even though Itachi was mainly calling the shots. Sasuke did know what to do with Kimimaro's attack, but it's not to say Itachi did not. In this page, you see both brothers looking at the attack, but only Sasuke displayed surprise by the "!". I just don't think Itachi voiced it, the same way neither voiced what to do when they wordlessly both cast Amaterasu on Kidomaru's webs.
> 
> Just in general though, Sasuke seemed more like support.



The talking part was meaningless; everybody knew whose side Sasuke would take. 
Furthermore look through the fight again, Sasuke bailed Itachi out a lot more times. Itachi's insight didn't do much; it was common sense with a logical inference. Kabuto called Sasuke his compensation, Kabuto believed he was Orochimaru II... anyone with that info could guess who Kabuto was going to target first. Itachi may've thought it faster, but it wasn't due to special insight.

It was pretty clear from the Kimimaro bones point, Sasuke led. That's like me saying in the other bits Sasuke knew what he was doing- but he didn't voice his opinion.

Sasuke's role in the fight was debatable, however this part has no relevance here.



> No no no.
> 
> this
> 
> ...



You're only touching on parts of the full story.
Don't hinge on just one/two pages and isolate them; look at the whole picture.

No-one ever implied Itachi held everything back, just that he held back. Saying he held all back is wrong; we saw the fight, Zetsu didn't point out anything like that. Zetsu didn't comment on Susanoo as he didn't know what it was. 
Sasuke was right, he was killed multiple times and Obito was right, Itachi gave Sasuke no more than he could handle. However *nothing* says Itachi toned down his power. It just means Sasuke could handle everything Itachi threw at him _except_ Susanoo. As we saw, Susanoo wasn't used to so much as attack Sasuke; the partial Susanoo would've made a significant difference.

We know that as we saw Susanoo's potential later. Nothing has ever suggested, outside that, Itachi would destroy Sasuke. In fact the indication was without Susanoo, Sasuke is clearly above Itachi.

To push Sasuke to a corner automatically means that Sasuke was hit with all he could handle. From there Itachi unleashed what Sasuke could not handle: Susanoo. 

It really is that simple and it is more accurate this way. Accurate because it considers _all_ the evidence (Obito's talk, the fight and Susanoo), no a debatable interpretation of Obito's meaning.

I agree with most of what you say, but you're looking too much into "protecting Sasuke". He protected him by not squashing him by Susanoo and by removing Orochimaru's corrosive seal.



> Well we do know for one thing that had Itachi not stopped Amaterasu, or burned Sasuke's upper half instead, he'd have been dead before he could use Oral Rebirth, but we initially thought he did this just to preserve Sasuke's eyes. Anyway, I stated above why I believe Obito didn't even include Susano'o in his rebuttals to Sasuke, going contextually.



Itachi didn't burn Sasuke's upper half because he couldn't catch it; no-one disputed that.
Further the moment Sasuke was touched he countered; Itachi wasn't going to be able to stop that.

We know he wanted Sasuke's eyes, in the act. However that doesn't imply he could've reacted Sasuke's upper body if he wished; Sasuke wanted to be caught. There's a reason he left that curse seal wing out in the open. That was all part of Sasuke's plan.

We also know another thing for a fact; Itachi would've been killed by Sasuke's Katon had the latter not wanted to finish with Kirin.



> I did address it above. Obito's comments are in context with Zetsu's own, as they give a second witness. Zetsu was not referring to Susano'o, as he didn't know Itachi possessed it. Obito's breakdown of the fight gave reason to what purpose Itachi had for holding back. Sasuke states he was almost killed *multiple* times (Susano'o never attacked Sasuke, so it did not almost kill him, and Sasuke said "multiple" times). Obito says that was because Itachi was not being serious and (later in the discussion) that "Itachi let you defeat him" (this is a general statement). Sasuke THEN references Mangekyou Sharingan as a separate instance, in addition to his previous argument, with Obito stating it was just part of the plan to simply push Sasuke into a corner, and we THEN see the references to Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (not Susano'o), to show what Sasuke was referring to and what Obito was referring to with his rebuttal to it. The part of the fight Susano'o took part in wasn't referenced until Obito asked what reason Itachi had to drive him into a corner.
> 
> As for Zetsu, his surmising of "that definitely wasn't Itachi's true power" was more than just a nitpick at him not dodging one rigged shuriken. He was assessing Itachi's power as a whole, and listing different things such as coughing up blood, his movements being off. It was all in the context of Itachi not showing his true power. This was given a double witness by Obito who broke down the fight and told Sasuke Itachi was letting him win. We then get feats from Itachi over 100 chapters later which pretty greatly outstrip Itachi's sick/letting-Sasuke-win feats and serves to allow us to see what was meant by Zetsu and Obito's words. It's a triple witness and works in context with Obito's and Zetsu's assessments.



I get at what you're pointing to. However we saw Edo Itachi and we saw Itachi at other instances aside from the shuriken. There's more or less no difference. 
So based on that, why should we assume that the 'movement' comment should generalise to anymore than the shuriken? And possibly more than the coughing?

Lets not forget Sauske _built_ himself to take out Itachi's base and Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu. It would be natural that Sasuke could outstrip Itachi; he trained his whole life for it.

Now this is base mode only, where Sasuke had the advantage. Without the Curse Seal he will be forced to make use of jutsu like Chidori stream. Might be a bit harder, but Sasuke will still be able to pull out a win.

**


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## joshhookway (Mar 2, 2013)

Itachi can easily genjutsu Sasuke and immediately slice his head off.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 2, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Itachi can easily genjutsu Sasuke and immediately slice his head off.



Just like last time? Oh wait.

I think you've misunderstood the situation, here.

The genjutsu exchange was mutual, mate.

I seriously need to start taking score.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

At this stage, I'd say Sasuke would more than likely win, even though it pains me to admit it. Despite the fact his arsenal hasn't really increased much at all, his battle experience has significantly changed him though. Itachi also lacks a great deal of jutsu, he has no "killer" techniques while Sasuke has quite a few he could deploy.


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