# The Counter to Kamui is Ultra Fast



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm making this thread, because I have extra time today, and so anyone who 'Debates' with Kakashi-Fanboy's can have this as a resources to dispel the idea that Kamui is 'Ultra' Fast. Also in general anyone who is legitimately on the fence about how fast Kamui is and how it works, should read this, as it is helpful in understanding the 'author's intent.

Okay, let me start this by saying something that's going to be hard for many to hear. The most clear cut measurement of Kamui's speed place it as slower then a skilled 'Jonin / Kage level' KUNAI TOSS.

Now here's why:

Both Obito's Kamui and Kakashi's Kamui were shown to be slower then TSB.

1) Obito's Kamui is shown to be to slow when he goes to use his Kamui here; and Madara stops Obito by firing the TSB:


Obito is forced to stop using Kamui; to defend himself from the TSB, citing his Kamui Warp was too slow:



*Note: Obito has Rikudo Chakra and Bijuu Chakra amping his Kamui
*Note 2: This clearly shows Obito physical reaction-speed and movement is > his Kamui warp speed

2) After this Madara concludes that Kakashi could use his Kamui to warp Obito, while Obito engages him:


To counter this, Madara attacks both Obito and Kakashi at the same time:


We are then shown Kakashi combines his Kamui with Obito's to double it's speed:


And this double speed Kamui still 'barely' outsped TSB:


*Note: This means Madara clearly believed TSB was faster then Kakashi's Kamui.
*Note: This clearly means Kakashi believed Madara's TSB was faster then his Kamui; as he was willing to let the other TSB hit him and die in-order to double the speed of Kamui, to outspeed TSB.

----

So I just want to recap here for a second:
1) We have two direct showings that factually indicated that TSB is faster then both Obito (Rikudo/Bijuu Amped) Kamui and Kakashi's Kamui
2) We have Madara's statements and counter plan supporting this
3) We have Kakashi's willingness to die to pull off the double Kamui to x2 it's speed supporting
4) We have the fact that even at double it's speed Kamui was not significantly faster then TSB supporting this.


Now Let's move on to Part 2, and I'll make another shocking Statement TSB is around the same speed as a Thrown Projectile Weapon.

1) This is established when Madara fires another TSB and Minato tells Kakashi to throw a Kunai to intercept TSB:


The Kunai does successful match the speed of a TSB and they are shown moving at the same speed:


Note: Minato clearly believes the speed of a thrown Kunai can consistently match the speed of TSB
Note: Kakashi clearly believes the speed of a thrown Kunai can intercept the speed of a TSB
Note: If anything the Kunai Toss is faster then TSB, as it happens after the TSB has been fired, and Minato has to hand off the Kunai to Kakashi

2) Later in the fight Minato once again reiterates that Kakashi and Lee can consistently match a TSB in speed with his Kunai:



Lee then does infact intercept the TSB again with a Kunai Toss:



Note: This shows Minato clearly believes the speed of a Kunai can consistently match a TSB in speed
Note: This shows that Kakashi clearly believes the speed of a Kunai an consistently match a TSB in speed
Note: This shows Lee clearly believes the speed of a Kunaian consistently match a TSB in speed
Note: This shows Gaara clearly believes the speed of a Kunai can consistently match a TSB in speed, as he goes along with Minato

---
So to recap again

1) We have two direct showings of a Kunai Toss matching the speed of a TSB
2) We have 3 Statements from Minato indicated he believes a Kunai Toss can match the speed of TSB
3) We have Kakashi, Gaara, and Lee all clearly agreeing with Minato's assessment.

----

So to bring both parts together Kunai Toss = TSB > then the individual speed of Rikudo Amped Obito's Kamui and Kakashi's Kamui in speed

---

Now once you've presented this evidence to a Kakashi-Fanboy they will do one of two things

1) Claim it's an Outlier
2) Cite Kakashi's Kamui 'Feat' of warping away Susanoo arrows to suggest their is 'no way' a Kunai Toss could be faster then Kamui

So let me address them here.

Any claims of an 'Outlier' can't be effectively argued and here's why. An 'Outlier' is something that happens one-time out context. For example (I'm not saying it is mind you), you can argue Sakura punching Kaguya is an 'Outlier', because the context there isn't 'speed' or 'strength', its a character driven moment to show Team 7 coming together and this is the only time Sakura has demonstrated that sheer 'speed' or 'strength' (Again this is an example so don't come to debate me about Sakura).

However the exact opposite is true here. In the case of Kamui speed in relation to the TSB, the entire 'context' of that scene is specifically devoted to how fast Kamui is in relation to TSB. The entire driving force of the plot is that Obito's and Kakashi's Kamui's are not individually fast enough to Outspeed TSB, so they need to 'double' their Kamui's speed to do so. And as far as it only being something that happens once, that simply isn't true, as we have three separate instances where we are shown TSB is faster then their individual Kamui

1) When TSB outspeed's Rikudo Amped Obito's Kamui
2) When TSB outspeed Kakashi's Kamui forcing him to double it
3) When TSB still nearly hits Obito before he can warp away, despite them doubling Kamui's speed

All 3 of these instances, plus Characters statements from Madara; and the actions of Kakashi / Obito, most notably Kakashi willingness to die to Double the speed of Kamui; all clearly indicate this is not an 'Outler' but the author's intent.

Now, next you will be hit with by Kakashi fans, that the Kunai Toss match TSB in speed is an 'Outlier', but again the context of those scenes both times is Minato factoring in the FTG Kunai being able to match the speed of TSB in their plane to deal with TSB multiple times. And we see Kunai toss matching TSB multiple times; Kakashi's Kunai Toss and Lee's; and we have multiple statements from Minato and character actions from Gaara, Lee, and Kakashi supporting this.

---

So moving on to point 2, that there is 'no way' Kamui could be that slow and warp away the arrows:

Now A) Saying that you don't believe something isn't an argument, so right there they have already lost. And you can simply say whether you believe it or not the Susanoo arrows just aren't faster then a Kunai Toss ether (which I actually think you can make a pretty decent argument for).

But let's assume that's a bridge too far for you; and your saying to yourself well I don't know if I believe Susanoo arrows could be slower then a Kunai Toss ether. Okay, so here's the main argument you need to then consider and present to the fanboy's; WHY IN THE FUCK IS THIS NOT THE OUTLIER LOL

That's right, if anything this is far more likely to be an 'Outlier' then what's presented above.

As it legitimately happened 1 time; and has nowhere near the evidence, statements, etc... supporting that Kamui is suppose to be that 'Fast'.

And just remember it's a complete double standard that the Kakashi-fanboys will tell you the above WITH FAR MORE evidence is an 'Outlier' or make up some bullshit nonsense to disregard it but hold this scene up as the indisputable evidence that no one can possible believe is an 'Outlier' without them calling you a 'Hater'.

----

Now I want to cover one more thing here; and that's how Kamui being as fast as a Kunai toss makes sense in context of the story. So you know how Kakashi has never successfully Kamui One-Shot anyone the way Kakashi-Fanboy's claim he can; and how they will give you a million 'excuses' as to why Kakashi didn't use Kamui to One-Shot in every battle he's was in, in P2, well actually Madara explained exactly how to counter Kamui; and this perfectly explains why Kamui one-shot doesn't happen.

Remember this scene, where Rikudo Amped Obito tries to use his Kamui Warp, and Madara attacks him with TSB preventing it:


And then Obito has to stop his Kamui to defend his attack:


And then Madara tells us the same strategy would work against Kakashi's Kamui here:


And it does work against Kakashi's Kamui forcing him to be willing to die to double the speed of his Kamui warp to beat out TSB?

This is shown that if Kamui users is attacked by Projectiles, Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, etc.. while they are trying to use Kamui warp, they have to stop using Kamui warp to use something else to defend that attack (or use Kamui to defend, if it can make it in time). Otherwise they are going to get hit by the attack and die, and have their Kamui disrupted anyway.

Now taking into account the above that a Kunai can be thrown at Kakashi before he can warp someone away with Kamui; it now becomes very obvious why Kakashi many times couldn't use Kamui to simply warp away the enemy; as he couldn't warp them while at the same time dealing with their Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, etc... attacks. This is why he couldn't easily warp away Hidan, Kakuzu, Deva, Asura, Mist Swordsman, Jinchuuriki, etc... (not because of insert bullshit excuse here), and why the only person he did almost warp away was Deidara who was flying and NOT attacking him.

Anyway
@Shazam
@Shark
@t0xeus
@UchihaX28
@Reddan

And others (Just singling these guys out as people who general have some good stuff to say); please use this as a resource and if you have any questions please let me know.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Oct 14, 2019)

Jesus Christ Turrin.


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## Shazam (Oct 14, 2019)

Soul said:


> Jesus Christ Turrin.



Leave Jesus out of it and tag @Santoryu


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## Topace (Oct 14, 2019)

This damn essay


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Soul said:


> Jesus Christ Turrin.


Jesus can't help you Kakashi Fanboy's now [HASHTAG]#Kamuiexposed[/HASHTAG]


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## ~Kakashi~ (Oct 14, 2019)

Of course kunai tossing is faster. It even outspeeds 8th Gate Gai using the fastest step of sekizo.

Kunai tossing is god tier.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vice (Oct 14, 2019)

So... is this meant to dehype Kamui or TSB or 8-Gates Guy because it kind of does all of the above. Or is it simply that feats are only as consistent as the plot needs them to be?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Oct 14, 2019)

Vice said:


> So... is this meant to dehype Kamui or TSB or 8-Gates Guy because it kind of does all of the above, *or is it simply that feats are only as consistent as the plot needs them to be?*



Bolded


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## Hardcore (Oct 14, 2019)

Vice said:


> So... is this meant to dehype Kamui or TSB or 8-Gates Guy because it kind of does all of the above, *or is it simply that feats are only as consistent as the plot needs them to be?*



true or not

does not change the fact they are there, and they are the main source to look into

everything is there because the plot needs it


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## Hina uzumaki (Oct 14, 2019)

Good lord.. 
@Santoryu @Crimson Flam3s and *KAKASHI'S D *have messed up turrin's head.


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## Soul (Oct 14, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Leave Jesus out of it and tag @Santoryu



Only he can help Turrin.



Turrin said:


> Jesus can't help you Kakashi Fanboy's now [HASHTAG]#Kamuiexposed[/HASHTAG]



You care about Kakashi 10 times more than me. Look at what you wrote man.
Get a grip.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Soul said:


> You care about Kakashi 10 times more than me. Look at what you wrote man.
> Get a grip.


Nah I just put care and thought into my posts; unlike you


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Of course kunai tossing is faster. It even outspeeds 8th Gate Gai using the fastest step of sekizo.
> 
> Kunai tossing is god tier.


Or Gai slowed down (to not run into TSB and die) like any reasonable poster assumes, rather then trying to use this to ignore a massive amount of statements, other feats, and characters assumptions to suit a biased agenda


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## Mar55 (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> like any reasonable poster assumes,


Which would be unreasonable and ill advised, as Minato explicitly told him not to do so and we're never given any indication he did.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Mar55 said:


> Which would be unreasonable and ill advised, as Minato explicitly told him not to do so and we're never given any indication he did.


Minato said don't stop; not don't slow down. It was all part of their plan; and the fact that Gai didn't crash into the TSB and die is adam good indication.

But if anything you can call this an 'outlier' of Gated Gai's speed; not an 'Outlier' of the Kunai Toss or TSB Speed, which are supported heavily by many sources cited in the opening.

I don't care which you choose; it's irrelevant to the fact that the strongest argument presented is the one in the OP in terms of the most corroborating feats, statements, characters portrays to measure Kamui's speed


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## ~Kakashi~ (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Or Gai slowed down (to not run into TSB and die) like any reasonable poster assumes, rather then trying to use this to ignore a massive amount of statements, other feats, and characters assumptions to suit a biased agenda



We're clearly told on panel that sekizo is an attack that goes up in speed with each step. Kishimoto notes that Gai is using *Link Removed* and therefor fastest step.

You're trying to head canon your way out of it, not gonna work though.


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> We're clearly told on panel that sekizo is an attack that goes up in speed with each step. Kishimoto notes that Gai is using *Link Removed* and therefor fastest step.
> 
> You're trying to head canon your way out of it, not gonna work though.


So since each step can go up in speed' he's incapable of slowing down when a threat is present, until his companions remove that threat, and then speeding up again?

But  if anything you can call this an 'outlier' of Gated Gai's speed; not an 'Outlier' of the Kunai Toss or TSB Speed, which are supported heavily by many sources cited in the opening.

I don't care which you choose; it's irrelevant to the fact that the strongest argument presented is the one in the OP in terms of the most corroborating feats, statements, characters portrays to measure Kamui's speed


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## ~Kakashi~ (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So since each step can go up in speed' he's incapable of slowing down when a threat is present, until his companions remove that threat, and then speeding up again?
> 
> But  if anything you can call this an 'outlier' of Gated Gai's speed; not an 'Outlier' of the Kunai Toss or TSB Speed, which are supported heavily by many sources cited in the opening.
> 
> I don't care which you choose; it's irrelevant to the fact that the strongest argument presented is the one in the OP in terms of the most corroborating feats, statements, characters portrays to measure Kamui's speed



There is no note made or any kind of drawn indication that Gai slows down. As a matter of fact, it's to the contrary. Minato reinforces that Gai shouldn't slow down and as you can see in that page and then the page after Gai's body never moves from the position it was in when he initiated the fifth step and there's nothing that indicates he's capable of slowing himself down mid air without moving( would need to "step on air" to slow down or whatever, but he doesn't move at all).

I'm not calling it anything. I'm just pointing out that kunai tossing speed > 8th Gate Gai's fastest step of Sekizo which > steps 1 through 4 which > Madara's reaction speed...which > Gai's 5th step.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> There is no note made or any kind of drawn indication that Gai slows down. As a matter of fact, it's to the contrary. Minato reinforces that Gai shouldn't slow down and as you can see in that page and then the page after Gai's body never moves from the position it was in when he initiated the fifth step and there's nothing that indicates he's capable of slowing himself down mid air without moving( would need to "step on air" to slow down or whatever, but he doesn't move at all).
> 
> I'm not calling it anything. I'm just pointing out that kunai tossing speed > 8th Gate Gai's fastest step of Sekizo which > steps 1 through 4 which > Madara's reaction speed...which > Gai's 5th step.


Look if you want to believe Kunai Toss is > 8TH Gate Gai; that’s on you bro.

I choose to believe it’s ether Gai slowed down (Minato telling Gai to keep going forward doesn’t mean he didn’t slow down) or this is an ‘Outlier’ of Gai’s speed.

Can you prove this wasn’t an ‘outlier’ of Gai’s speed? Do you have any argument for it


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## ~Kakashi~ (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look if you want to believe Kunai Toss is > 8TH Gate Gai; that’s on you bro.
> 
> I choose to believe it’s ether Gai slowed down (Minato telling Gai to keep going forward doesn’t mean he didn’t slow down) or this is an ‘Outlier’ of Gai’s speed.
> 
> Can you prove this wasn’t an ‘outlier’ of Gai’s speed? Do you have any argument for it



Sure, the proof is Lee says it goes up in speed with the steps. Kishimoto says Gai is using the 5th step. There is 0 indication that Gai slows down, and there's actually evidence that he didn't(Minato telling him not to, Gai not moving at all after starting the 5th step).

Why should I believe Gai is slowing down? Where is the proof of that? 

I don't really give a shit what a kunai toss is faster than or how fast kamui is or whatever else. I just think the inconsistencies of the war arc are hilarious.


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## jesusus (Oct 14, 2019)

I agree with the last four words of your title


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## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Sure, the proof is Lee says it goes up in speed with the steps. Kishimoto says Gai is using the 5th step. There is 0 indication that Gai slows down, and there's actually evidence that he didn't(Minato telling him not to, Gai not moving at all after starting the 5th step).
> 
> Why should I believe Gai is slowing down? Where is the proof of that?
> 
> I don't really give a shit what a kunai toss is faster than or how fast kamui is or whatever else. I just think the inconsistencies of the war arc are hilarious.


That’s not proof that Gai being slower then the Kunai is not an ‘outlier’ in Gai’s speed; actually the idea that his speed should have increased supports the idea that it’s an ‘Outlier’

If you can’t prove Gai speed isn’t an ‘outlier’ there then you have no argument; and loose by default when trying to address the far more supported OP.

Now if you just mean the WA is inconsistent in some ways I don’t disagree, but that has no relevance to the opening which is merely saying that this is thee most consistent measurement of Kamui speed we can take away from the WA; not that the arc is consistent or even that Kamui is always consistent


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## ~Kakashi~ (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That’s not proof that Gai being slower then the Kunai is not an ‘outlier’ in Gai’s speed; actually the idea that his speed should have increased supports the idea that it’s an ‘Outlier’
> 
> If you can’t prove Gai speed isn’t an ‘outlier’ there then you have no argument; and loose by default when trying to address the far more supported OP.
> 
> Now if you just mean the WA is inconsistent in some ways I don’t disagree, but that has no relevance to the opening which is merely saying that this is thee most consistent measurement of Kamui speed we can take away from the WA; not that the arc is consistent or even that Kamui is always consistent



It's on you to prove that it's an outlier my friend. All the evidence favors me.

Not that I actually give a shit if you do or not, but acting as if I'm the one that has the burden of proof here is hilarious. I'm literally repeating what the manga clearly both states and shows to us. If you're trying to say the manga is wrong, it's on you to prove it.

Kamui is obviously not consistent. Susanoo arrows shit on kunai tossing speed. Kakashi isn't going to shit himself if someone throws a kunai at him but he himself admits he's a dead man if he doesn't have kamui to stop susanoo arrows. 

This manga is just stupid is what it boils down to.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 14, 2019)

You are so  infatuated with trying to prove that Kamui is just as fast as it's low end speed feats that everything else goes right above your head.


Kakashi warping a Kunai


Warping Rasengan before Naruto moves a foot


Warping a Shinra Tensei'd nail


In this instance, Obito warps Sakura with a single eye, before Madara's desperate TSB staff throw can get to her.


You can try and come up with a million excuses, but the evidence is overwhelming.

It's more likely that Madara did not use the TSB's at their full speed against a man that was already downed.

Besides in the scene you quoted, it never implies that Obito's self warp is equal to Kakashi's long range warp. The scene was about synchronizing their eyes as if it was a single dual ms user, to bring out their full potential AKA doubling of all speeds.

That's without taking into account that both are exhausted, low on chakra, dying etc and as Kakashi mentioned, chakra quantity affects how fast a jutsu can be invoked.

The final nail in the coffin is Minato saying that Kakashi should be able to teleport them, with the only problem being his inaccurary due to losing eyesight. Speed is never even brought up.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Nah I just put care and thought into my posts; unlike you



Hahaha. I get that you have been more frustrated recently but you have seen me post for around a decade. Caring is long gone for me as this place is definitely not up to par with the old BD, let alone the Colosseum, but I do think on posts.
I am telling you, this thing you have with Kakashi is not worth it man.


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## ShinAkuma (Oct 14, 2019)

Jimmies are rustled!

I LIKE THIS THREAD!


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## Charmed (Oct 14, 2019)

This post is very interesting. The way how it affects TSB, 8 Gates speed, Kamui and more...
So if Kunai toss isn't supersonic nor hypersonic (couse it ain't breaking the sound barrier), then Susano arrows and TSB aren't either?
Does this represent a downgrade to some of these characters' reactions and speed?


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## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

(not directed at anybody in particular)

This will fall on deaf ears for the millionth time but - SPEED IS NOT A STATIC PROPERTY IN NARUTO.

This is why the argument "blitz gg" is fundamentally flawed. Speed is a tool to create an opening, but it will not always create such an opening because Kishi doesn't consider it to be a static property. This is why we have so many discrepancies with how speed is portrayed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Azula (Oct 15, 2019)

The main gist is that using kamui to completely teleport an object (self-others) is not that quick.

This is why Obito prefers to counter thrown objects at him with "phasing" using kamui only on certain body parts.

If he tried using kamui to fully teleport himself, he runs the risk of getting hit in the middle of teleporting.

Same with Kakashi, only in a few situations he can successfully teleport something without interference (in a team setting).


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## Artistwannabe (Oct 15, 2019)

I will just leave this here, just in case somebody gets the wrong idea:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alucardemi (Oct 15, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I will just leave this here, just in case somebody gets the wrong idea:


Holy shit. You pulled this one out of the mimic chest inside Kurama's belly or something, while he's still sealed in Naruto. I can't believe this isn't posted more often here.


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## t0xeus (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> (not directed at anybody in particular)
> 
> This will fall on deaf ears for the millionth time but - SPEED IS NOT A STATIC PROPERTY IN NARUTO.
> 
> This is why the argument "blitz gg" is fundamentally flawed. Speed is a tool to create an opening, but it will not always create such an opening because Kishi doesn't consider it to be a static property. This is why we have so many discrepancies with how speed is portrayed.


What does static property mean

I googled it and it just came up with javascript classes lol


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## Jad (Oct 15, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> What does static property mean
> 
> I googled it and it just came up with javascript classes lol


Static means it's the same and won't change.


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## t0xeus (Oct 15, 2019)

@Turrin
Quality post, it is good to mention tho that TSB being Kunai toss speed and faster than Kamui is not an antifeat for either TSB or Kamui

Kunai tosses have pretty much every time forced someone to deflect or block,I do not remember anybody actually fully dodging Kunai or Shuriken toss.

Thing is against Kamui you have no other option other than dodge, since counterattacking or blocking LoS would be OOC for anyone who has no knowledge on Kamui
And dodging is nearly impossible as Kakashi even in BoS is able to aim quite well on Deidara who is dozen meters above the ground on his clay bird

Still Kakashi being as careful of a fighter he is, is not going to be trying to Kamui his opponent face to face either, as that would be OOC for him

I still think Kakashi is able to pull off a feinting strategy against most lowkages and some midkages where he distracts his opponent with a clone and then uses Kamui, leaving the opponent almost no time to react

And that is also what I think most people mean when they say "Kamui GG". They don't actually mean Kakashi staring at his opponent and instantly warping him


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## t0xeus (Oct 15, 2019)

Jad said:


> Static means it's the same and won't change.


I get that but what does he mean by that

That even godtiers sometime move at genin speed and genin tiers sometime move at jonin speed for an example?


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## Jad (Oct 15, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> I get that but what does he mean by that
> 
> That even godtiers sometime move at genin speed and genin tiers sometime move at jonin speed for an example?


He means that speed is not consistent among characters in whatever they do: Kamui, fighting, running. Meaning a character is fast in one scenario but is not shown to be as fast in another.

Do I think he means the extreme example of God tiers moving at Genin speeds at least once or the possibility? Probably not, but his just saying the speed of a person or technique won't be the same in every panel in the Manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Oct 15, 2019)

Alucardemi said:


> Holy shit. You pulled this one out of the mimic chest inside Kurama's belly or something, while he's still sealed in Naruto. I can't believe this isn't posted more often here.


I've seen several people believing in the misconception that Kamui's wrapping speed is all the same, Konan explicitly stated in the fight that Obito is slower when he sucks himself in than when he's sucking in other people. This isn't the first time I've seen this argument on why Kamui is slow or something like that, not to mention that Obito actually outsped KCM Naruto when he sucked himself in, so it's not like it's THAT slow either.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> @Turrin
> Quality post, it is good to mention tho that TSB being Kunai toss speed and faster than Kamui is not an antifeat for either TSB or Kamui
> 
> Kunai tosses have pretty much every time forced someone to deflect or block,I do not remember anybody actually fully dodging Kunai or Shuriken toss.
> ...


I agree with you that the most valid way for Kakashi to pull off Kamui on his own is use a clone feint and have the clone distract the enemy while he uses Kamui. 

However I this relies on Kakashi clone being able to hold off the enemy, and I don’t think Kakashi’s clones have the defensive ‘level’ against really any ‘Kage level’ and would have a tough time against even some ‘Jonin levels’ doing this. Though again you and I have a different definition of who is on each ‘level’, so depending on what characters your referring to I might agree that Kakashi odds are better at pulling this off. Ether way the feint argument is a legitamate on; the straight up Kamui One-Shot most of the time is not


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I will just leave this here, just in case somebody gets the wrong idea:


Kakashi was sucking in something else ‘Obito’

So no that doesn’t work; also Obito was Rikudo Amped and in that scene he is talking about when he grabs the enemy not Kakashi warp.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> (not directed at anybody in particular)
> 
> This will fall on deaf ears for the millionth time but - SPEED IS NOT A STATIC PROPERTY IN NARUTO.
> 
> This is why the argument "blitz gg" is fundamentally flawed. Speed is a tool to create an opening, but it will not always create such an opening because Kishi doesn't consider it to be a static property. This is why we have so many discrepancies with how speed is portrayed.


There is some truth in speed not being static that’s why we should go with the most consistent measurement of speed we have; and the opening is the most consistent measurement of Kamui speed we have in the manga due to the statements, feats, and characters interactions being so numerous as well as the context being around speed of Kamui in those chapters IE this measurement is most reflective of authorial intent

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Soul said:


> Hahaha. I get that you have been more frustrated recently but you have seen me post for around a decade. Caring is long gone for me as this place is definitely not up to par with the old BD, let alone the Colosseum, but I do think on posts.
> I am telling you, this thing you have with Kakashi is not worth it man.


Glad you admit you don’t care and your a shell of what you used to be as a posters; my thoughts on your new style exactly


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## Artistwannabe (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi was sucking in something else ‘Obito’
> 
> So no that doesn’t work; also Obito was Rikudo Amped and in that scene he is talking about when he grabs the enemy not Kakashi warp.


I wasn't really talking about Kakashi though, and it was also never stated that Rikudou amp amplifies the Kamui's speed. I was just posting it so people don't get the wrong idea about Obito.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> You are so  infatuated with trying to prove that Kamui is just as fast as it's low end speed feats that everything else goes right above your head.
> 
> 
> Kakashi warping a Kunai
> ...


You posting scans of things you ‘believe’ are faster then a Kunai toss is not evidence; it’s you just subjectively stating you think these things are faster, while offering no proof that they are faster; and is therefore not an credible argument to counter what I presented in the OP which has a ton of Feats, Statements, etc... support this measurement of Kamui speed.

If you want to counter the opening then you need to prove these ‘feats’ you are citing are > in speed then a Kunai Toss; and you have to prove this for more ‘Feats’ then the ones shown in the OP, which again are numerous, to show that the ‘feats’ you are highlighting are t in-fact ‘Outlier’

As far as your other plints

1. Kakashi is using his Long Range warp on Obito at the same time Obito uses his own self warp this is how they doubled the speed; if Kakashi could warp Obito by himself, he wouldn’t have needed to double the speed risking his life, Madara wouldn’t have thought he could counter Kakashi Kamui with TSB and so on

2. Kakashi has enough chakra to use Kamui again after this; so he wasn’t Low enough on chakra that it would make a difference and Obito has Rikudo Chakra and Bijuu so lol at that shit

3. Minato saying Kakashi can warp the orbs away doesn’t mean he can do it before being hit by them when he’s the target, it means he can warp them away when they are floating around Madara, stationary, or when he sees an opening while Madara is fighting someone else. When the TSB needed to be intercept in route they used a Kunai toss every time 

Kakashi specifically says he can’t do this because he can’t warp at a Range anymore, but if the TSB was targeting him he could warp it as it would be flying at him into Close Range; so it’s obvious Minato and him were talking about warping the TSB when they were attacking him


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I wasn't really talking about Kakashi though, and it was also never stated that Rikudou amp amplifies the Kamui's speed. I was just posting it so people don't get the wrong idea about Obito.


If your just saying Obito phasing speed is faster then warping speed, I agree; the point is that Obito self warp and Kakashi warp were individually slower then TSB


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> It's on you to prove that it's an outlier my friend. All the evidence favors me.
> 
> Not that I actually give a shit if you do or not, but acting as if I'm the one that has the burden of proof here is hilarious. I'm literally repeating what the manga clearly both states and shows to us. If you're trying to say the manga is wrong, it's on you to prove it.
> 
> ...


No it’s not on me because I’m not making a claim about Gai’s speed only the consistency of Kamui Speed in comparison to TSB and Kunai Toss. Ive provides tons of evidence for this comparison to achieve consistency by citing other scenes, statements, etc..besides just Lee’s Kunai toss Scene, to support this argument.

Your making the claim that the scene seems off. Now if you think the speed of the Kunai and TSB are the ‘Outlier’ and not Gai then you need to back up the claim that it isn’t Gai’s speed that is an Outlier; just like I have provide a ton of other evidence to show Kunai Toss / TSB comparison isn’t an outlier.


Now if this isn’t your argument; then I apologize, but then your comment is also irrelevant to this discussion; I agree that somethings in the WA are inconsistent; the OP is only here to show the most consistent measurement of Kamui speed that can be achieved with what ‘evidence’ we have

—-
So again can you prove that Kamui warping Susanoo arrows isn’t the ‘Outlier’ here. And again I’m not saying Kamui is consistent I’m saying this is the most consistent measurement we can make as it’s the most support by showings, statements, characters; and for NBD purposes we should go with thee most consistent measurement we have


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## t0xeus (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I agree with you that the most valid way for Kakashi to pull off Kamui on his own is use a clone feint and have the clone distract the enemy while he uses Kamui.
> 
> However I this relies on Kakashi clone being able to hold off the enemy, and I don’t think Kakashi’s clones have the defensive ‘level’ against really any ‘Kage level’ and would have a tough time against even some ‘Jonin levels’ doing this. Though again you and I have a different definition of who is on each ‘level’, so depending on what characters your referring to I might agree that Kakashi odds are better at pulling this off. Ether way the feint argument is a legitamate on; the straight up Kamui One-Shot most of the time is not


He does not need to hold off enemy for too long tho

What he did against Shoten Itachi would be an overkill already. He just needs the first part of that trick - the clone emerging from ground with an attack, forcing the enemy to switch focus on that fully, thus making it easy for real Kakashi to quickly aim and cast Kamui while the enemy has to decide whether to counter Kamui and get killed by Kakashi's clone attack or counter the clone attack and die to Kamui


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> He does not need to hold off enemy for too long tho
> 
> What he did against Shoten Itachi would be an overkill already. He just needs the first part of that trick - the clone emerging from ground with an attack, forcing the enemy to switch focus on that fully, thus making it easy for real Kakashi to quickly aim and cast Kamui while the enemy has to decide whether to counter Kamui and get killed by Kakashi's clone attack or counter the clone attack and die to Kamui


I don’t disagree with this; again I just disagree he can pull this off against Kages and Jonin reliably, I mean even in the scenario’s where he had back up this seemingly was tough for him against the Swordsman enough to not make it a viable strategy, who are only ‘Jonin’ to me at least


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## t0xeus (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I don’t disagree with this; again I just disagree he can pull this off against Kages and Jonin reliably, I mean even in the scenario’s where he had back up this seemingly was tough for him against the Swordsman enough to not make it a viable strategy, who are only ‘Jonin’ to me at least


I genuinely think this is more effective in a 1v1 tho 

In a open war scenario like that, it is hard to create a clone distraction since it's chaos everywhere

And the ET swordsmen can use alliance members as hostages blocking LOS, even if they do it unconsciously, and shit like that for an example

Imagine Kakashi going for this strategy, with Kamui about to finish, only with a alliance fodder popping into his LOS, lmao

Also the other swordsmen can target Kakashi when he emerges about to cast Kamui 

So in reality, in 1v1 where there is only one threat which means he can't miss or get intercepted by others, it is far easier to pull off


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> I genuinely think this is more effective in a 1v1 tho
> 
> In a open war scenario like that, it is hard to create a clone distraction since it's chaos everywhere
> 
> ...


In open war you have people to distract them; and don’t need a clone. There are pluses and minuses, but ultimately if this was an easy strategy to pull off we wouldn’t even be having this conversation and Kakashi would have beaten several enemies in the manga this way which he didn’t 

Anyway it’s kind of hard to say if I agree or not, without know what character you think he can more often then not pull this off against


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## t0xeus (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> In open war you have people to distract them; and don’t need a clone. There are pluses and minuses, but ultimately if this was an easy strategy to pull off we wouldn’t even be having this conversation and Kakashi would have beaten several enemies in the manga this way which he didn’t
> 
> Anyway it’s kind of hard to say if I agree or not, without know what character you think he can more often then not pull this off against


He did not have many 1v1 fights in the manga tho.. only time he could've used this was perhapa against Deva but even that would've been too risky since Deva is the guy who can respond to two attacks at once, with ST he disrupts Kamui charge and clone attack at once

He can pull this off against any opponent that he would be able to clonefeint and that cannot disrupt Kamui charge while surviving the clone's attack

First that come to mind:
Tsunade/WA Sakura
Mei
Hidan
3T Itachi


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> He did not have many 1v1 fights in the manga tho.. only time he could've used this was perhapa against Deva but even that would've been too risky since Deva is the guy who can respond to two attacks at once, with ST he disrupts Kamui charge and clone attack at once
> 
> He can pull this off against any opponent that he would be able to clonefeint and that cannot disrupt Kamui charge while surviving the clone's attack
> 
> ...



1. Tsunade and Sakura this isn’t likely to work as they have knowledge on Kakashi’s Kamui and his clone Feinting skills; so they will take pains to avoid it like hanging back and having Katsuya overwhelm Kakashi, which he can literally do nothing against 

2. Mei due to her mists; is highly unlikely that Kamui would be an option; even if he successfully feinted her. 

3. Hidan, I agree with, but wouldn’t say he is Kage level

4. 3T Itachi I doubt this would work if Itachi wasn’t a Shoten was we already saw them Clone Feint eachother in P1 and Itachi won that exchange pushing Kakashi back


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## Mar55 (Oct 15, 2019)

View media item 86728Think this applies here.


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## Speedyamell (Oct 15, 2019)

Ok but why did you have to go and involve sakura
An outlier, at least in this case, is something that is out of context for a certain character.. Punching somebody is not out of context for sakura.. having a super powerful punch is not out of context for sakura either and neither was her "sheer speed" in that scenario as a few moments earlier, we we're literally spoon-fed with a display of how fast sakura was after she ran from kaguya's arms _directly_ after rikudo Naruto and rikudo Sasuke called them superfast..
This post would have been perfect without this

---

Oh. And the other thing is susanoo arrow. It was clearly not intended to be slower than fucking kunai lel.. but my understanding is, kamui basically rips open a wormhole in a space.. basically a "portal" that sucks things in.. all kakashi would have had to do, was open a portal in front of his face for the arrow to fly into, not track the arrow itself and warp it Midway or sth like he did with pain's missile.. and thats why the arrow still caused an impact/explosion so close to/around kakashi


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## JayK (Oct 15, 2019)

Just gonna drop the bomb here:

Turrin is hands down candidate for WOAT poster in the NBD

Never ever was any other poster so heavily impuls driven, biased and subjective while also straight up serious about their insulting and substanceless manner of posting. He also lacks basic grasp of the difference between reaction and physical speed in combination with basic knowledge of scaling and such despite posting here since 13 years as evidently shown in this very thread (if you think TSB are slow you hands down just need to delete yourself).
PiS/CiS? Never heard of it either.

What kills it though is that he straight up kills the enjoyment of posting in the NBD fo a good chunk of people and basically just floods it with his posts at this point. Also evidence of mods not doing their job correctly unfortunately.

Piece out and hf in your madness cause I am tired of this shit and posting in the NBD.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Ok but why did you have to go and involve sakura
> An outlier, at least in this case, is something that is out of context for a certain character.. Punching somebody is not out of context for sakura.. having a super powerful punch is not out of context for sakura either and neither was her "sheer speed" in that scenario as a few moments earlier, we we're literally spoon-fed with a display of how fast sakura was after she ran from kaguya's arms _directly_ after rikudo Naruto and rikudo Sasuke called them superfast..
> This post would have been perfect without this
> 
> ...


I said don’t debate me on Sakura


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> Just gonna drop the bomb here:
> 
> Turrin is hands down candidate for WOAT poster in the NBD
> 
> ...


I’m very glad I’m killing your enjoyment please leave


Ps did you just nominated yourself for Most Butt Hurt Poster in the NBD?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Oct 15, 2019)

All I have to say is:

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> Just gonna drop the bomb here:
> 
> Turrin is hands down candidate for WOAT poster in the NBD
> 
> ...



Come on man......bush diving is a classic!

Gotta give the man his props!


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Come on man......bush diving is a classic!
> 
> Gotta give the man his props!


Nah man they deserve all the credit for that lol


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## Artistwannabe (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If your just saying Obito phasing speed is faster then warping speed, I agree; the point is that Obito self warp and Kakashi warp were individually slower then TSB


No, Obito warping other objects is faster than warping himself. That's what Konan is saying. That's what I meant.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No, Obito warping other objects is faster than warping himself. That's what Konan is saying. That's what I meant.


Yeah she is talking about when he uses his Kamui where he grabs the enemy and then warps them, which is not the ‘same’ is Kakashi’s Kamui.

But I also agree that one is faster then Obito self warp, just like his phasing is too


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## Artistwannabe (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah she is talking about when he uses his Kamui where he grabs the enemy and then warps them, which is not the ‘same’ is Kakashi’s Kamui.
> 
> But I also agree that one is faster then Obito self warp, just like his phasing is too


I was defending my boy Obito, I don't think I am qualified enough to speak for Kakashi, as I believe there are far better posters capable of debating for him.


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## Grinningfox (Oct 15, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> I was defending my boy Obito, I don't think I am qualified enough to speak for Kakashi, as I believe there are far better posters capable of debating for him.


Hahahahahahahahaha


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## Artistwannabe (Oct 15, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Hahahahahahahahaha


 wat


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## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

@jesusus christ Turrin

You're basically telling us that a MS technique praised by Madara, is trash and easily countered by attacking Kakashi with literally anything, or maybe even dodging it.

And Kakashi was ready to test that tech on "Madara", so it's not like he thinks anyone there can counter that. So overall, it's not like he recognised any of the things you said here, and it shows the reasons you listed aren't why he didn't use Kamui.

You're also telling us to consider only this one feat of Kamui, instead of the whole other feats that happened in the manga. Kakashi warping Naruto's clone before Obito could hit him is also a huge plot moment, so why should we discard it? Kakashi on panel warped away Kaguya's ash bones, which couldn't be dodged by Naruto. 

Also what @Crimson Flam3s said, these examples can't all be outliers, and Kamui can't be that slow either, or Kakashi would have failed with it all the times he tried it throughout the manga.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> @jesusus christ Turrin
> 
> You're basically telling us that a MS technique praised by Madara, is trash and easily countered by attacking Kakashi with literally anything, or maybe even dodging it.
> 
> ...



No you are saying Kamui is ‘trash’ i’m simply giving the most consistent measurement of its ‘speed’ in the Manga.

You subjectively deciding that Kamui being measured at a lower ‘speed’ then you thought it was makes it ‘trash’ is your opinion; and not mine. I think Kamui is a highly useful Jutsu despite its ‘speed’ being most ‘consistently measured at lower then a Kunai toss 

And no I’m not telling you do anything you are completely free to take less consistent and less support ‘measurements’ of Kamui speed if you want.

I’m only telling you this is thee most ‘consistent’ measurement of Kamui ‘speed’ in the manga; and not because of a ‘single’ feat (that’s downright lie on your part or you didn’t read the opening), but due to multitude of ‘feats’, statements, and character interactions that occur over many chapters, one of which contextually specifically focus on Kamui ‘speed’


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## Reddan (Oct 15, 2019)

I can't give a fair assessment of Kakashi WA level, because I need to reread his feats and in context. It is an interesting read.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Oct 15, 2019)

Wow! So we're really gonna "downgrade" Kamui's speed to less than Kunai tossing speed?

Nice! 

I wonder how this affects Kakashi and Obito's place in our personal tier list... coue that jutsu is usually their triumph card, right?


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## zaddyxx22 (Oct 15, 2019)

BLASPHEMY! we all know outliers are exclusive to Sakura and Sakura only

Reactions: Like 2


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2019)

Kamui is as fast as the plot demands.

That said either the speed of a thrown Kunai is greater than we gave it credit for or there is a chance that the speed portrayal in that instance with the Kunai was bend by Kishi to allow for some drama. 

After all Kamui was also capable of teleporting Deidara's clay bunshin explosion in an instant, could handle Pain's needle in an instant, could teleport away a Susanoo arrow that Kakashi himself was unable to dodge(and neither could Danzou), could teleport Naruto's Rasengan before Obito could notice or even warp Gedo Mazo's hand in an instant earning Madara's praise.

As for Madara's Gudoudama speed...if it is only as fast as a thrown Kunai and said Kunai speed is meant to be low then why Madara bothered attacking with something that any jounin level ninja or above should be able to dodge?

I do not think Kamui was meant to be a GG insta win guaranteed jutsu either though. It uses to much chakra for someone like Kakashi and sometimes(which can be kinda arbitrary admittedly) it requires to "charge" the eye in order to use it.

Perhaps someone like Naruto with huge chakra reserves and Asura chakra could spam it like crazy, could activate it insanely fast and could use it even on reaaaally big targets without any charge time.

Kakashi being subject to greater limits though plus only having one eye(being unable to unleash Kamui at full potential) was only hyped at like low-mid kage levels IMO. Were his chakra reserves huge and he had both eyes then he likely would have jumped to high kage or even higher than that. Even moreso if he gained PS.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> Kamui is as fast as the plot demands.
> 
> That said either the speed of a thrown Kunai is greater than we gave it credit for or there is a chance that the speed portrayal in that instance with the Kunai was bend by Kishi to allow for some drama.
> 
> ...


1. Can you please provide ‘evidence’ that each individual ‘feat’ you listed of Kamui, is faster then a Kunai Toss. Because unless you can that isn’t an argument, that’s just your belief. Which your free to believe what ever but that doesn’t change the fact that the OP displays the most consistent measurement of Kamui speed

2. Madara was using the TSB not to blitz people but to disrupt their attacks. TSB also isn’t dangerous because of its speed but rather because almost nothing can block TSB


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Can you please provide ‘evidence’ that each individual ‘feat’ you listed of Kamui, is faster then a Kunai Toss. Because unless you can that isn’t an argument, that’s just your belief. Which your free to believe what ever but that doesn’t change the fact that the OP displays the most consistent measurement of Kamui speed



1) Well...what feats are there from folks dodging Kunai Tosses?

Especially from Minato who may have a particularly fast throwing speed when compared to say...Chuunin level throwers(who may have trouble hitting a Jounin level ninja).

So Kunai Toss speed may be low...or it may be too fast for kage level ninjas to evade.



Turrin said:


> 2. Madara was using the TSB not to blitz people but to disrupt their attacks. TSB also isn’t dangerous because of its speed but rather because almost nothing can block TSB



2) It sounds kinda weird for a god tier such as Madara to have an attack that can be dodged by any jounin or higher level ninja.

Or maybe that isn't the case?

Maybe said gudoudama speed level which is the same as a kunai throw is too much for most opponents to dodge and requires at least some defensive measures since avoiding is impossible.

Then we have Kamui intagibility which not even JJ Madara nor Kaguya could blitz past.

The only real problem with Kamu is when the user attepts to teleport himself rather than other targets since it slows the user down then. Like against Konan.


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## Soul (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Glad you admit you don’t care and your a shell of what you used to be as a posters; my thoughts on your new style exactly



Still way better than being biased. Being at my best is worthless when people rarely reply with actual arguments. It just isn't worth it in today's NBD.


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## Soul (Oct 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> Just gonna drop the bomb here:
> 
> Turrin is hands down candidate for WOAT poster in the NBD
> 
> ...



He isn't the worst, but it is getting old. Ignoring some very simple points and just trying to bury you with subjective arguments isn't a good debating method.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> 1) Well...what feats are there from folks dodging Kunai Tosses?
> 
> Especially from Minato who may have a particularly fast throwing speed when compared to say...Chuunin level throwers(who may have trouble hitting a Jounin level ninja).
> 
> ...



1. Kakashi, Gai, Gaara, Lee, and Minato, all believe a Kunai Toss can match the speed of the TSB orbs; so it’s not like it’s only Minato Kunai Toss speed we’re talking about. So feel free to draw from ‘feats’ of the slowest one of those characters, to try and prove that these other feats are ‘faster’ then a Kunai Toss 

2. Something Seeming weird really isn’t an argument. Also Old Hiruzen partially dodged TSB at short range, so it doesn’t seem weird to me that most ‘Kage levels’ can evade TSB at a range or react in time to deflect them (though they can deflect them because they are unblockable). So unless you have evidence, then you just stating something is weird is kinda of meaningless 

3. Phasing is a different ability then warping objects or self warp so that’s irrelevant here


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Soul said:


> Still way better than being biased. Being at my best is worthless when people rarely reply with actual arguments. It just isn't worth it in today's NBD.


Oh your also bias though clearly


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Soul said:


> He isn't the worst, but it is getting old. Ignoring some very simple points and just trying to bury you with subjective arguments isn't a good debating method.


So your method then; or at least I assure you it feels the same way


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## Arles Celes (Oct 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Kakashi, Gai, Gaara, Lee, and Minato, all believe a Kunai Toss can match the speed of the TSB orbs; so it’s not like it’s only Minato Kunai Toss speed we’re talking about. So feel free to draw from ‘feats’ of the slowest one of those characters, to try and prove that these other feats are ‘faster’ then a Kunai Toss



Then maybe Kunai Toss speed needs to be revised.

V2 Ei couldn't dodge Minato's Kunai which the latter used to teleport right after at Ei's back to try to stab him with another Kunai.



Turrin said:


> 2. Something Seeming weird really isn’t an argument. Also Old Hiruzen partially dodged TSB at short range, so it doesn’t seem weird to me that most ‘Kage levels’ can evade TSB at a range or react in time to deflect them (though they can deflect them because they are unblockable). So unless you have evidence, then you just stating something is weird is kinda of meaningless



Sasuke also blocked an attack meant to Naruto with a Susanoo hand instead of being too slow to get there in time. Tobirama managed to put tags on Juubito. Hashi's wood clone grabbed Juubito with mokuton.

And Hiruzen dodged a Gudoudama spear attack instead of a mere thrown gudoudama. So maybe kage level ninjas can partially react to Juubi Jin's speed then(and not just thrown JJ attacks)...at least when Kishi wants it.



Turrin said:


> 3. Phasing is a different ability then warping objects or self warp so that’s irrelevant here



Obito could also warp Madara's gudoudama which was thrown at Sakura in time despite Madara having the intiative advantage.

So clearly warping other tagets than himself is faster for a Kamui user. With phasing(which is also an aspect of Kamui) being even faster than that.

Phasing> Teleporting other targets> Teleporting himself

When it comes down to speed IMO.


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## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

Arles Celes said:


> Then maybe Kunai Toss speed needs to be revised.
> 
> V2 Ei couldn't dodge Minato's Kunai which the latter used to teleport right after at Ei's back to try to stab him with another Kunai.
> 
> ...



1. Whether perception of Kunai Toss needs to be revised is maybe a topic for another thread; but it’s not really something I’m arguing or feel the need to argue here, as Kunai Toss exact speed doesn’t matter when it comes to whether it’s equal to TSB and faster then Kamui

2. Again probably a topic for another thread; just saying If Old Hiruzen can react I have a feeling most can and so can Jonin speced for speed 

3. I don’t disagree with this


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## Soul (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Oh your also bias though clearly



You can say a lot of things about my posting style, but I am not biased at all.
Post an example of me posting something other than facts or a reasonable interpretation of a feat when debating.


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 16, 2019)

@Turrin  I mostly agree with your assessment.

Just like with most things in this manga, things work a certain way.... until they don't. A classic example is that on the one hand, Obito can detect and shut off Kakashi's kamui that was being used on Gedo Mazou, even though this Kamui was supercharged up. Yet moments later he can't percieve Kamui warping away the rasengan or BM Naruto shadow clone right in front of him lol. And after that, Kakashi's warping speed is shown to be slower than TSBS and even his own thrown kunai. He still has the feat of warping away Minato's senpou rasengan at the instant it made contact and transfered a small fraction of its large kinetic energy causing him to be knocked back.

I personally think Madara's statements on it is the final say, as the feats mostly were consistent within that instance and afterward in establishing how fast Kakashu's Kamui is, as after all he had just witnessed Kakashi frantically warping Sakura and Naruto to boxland. So he has seen the speed of Kakahsi's kamui and took into account in saying his TSBS were faster.




~Kakashi~ said:


> We're clearly told on panel that sekizo is an attack that goes up in speed with each step. Kishimoto notes that Gai is using *Link Removed* and therefor fastest step.



Again, things work a certain way, until it doesn't.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You posting scans of things you ‘believe’ are faster then a Kunai toss is not evidence; it’s you just subjectively stating you think these things are faster, while offering no proof that they are faster; and is therefore not an credible argument to counter what I presented in the OP which has a ton of Feats, Statements, etc... support this measurement of Kamui speed.
> 
> If you want to counter the opening then you need to prove these ‘feats’ you are citing are > in speed then a Kunai Toss; and you have to prove this for more ‘Feats’ then the ones shown in the OP, which again are numerous, to show that the ‘feats’ you are highlighting are t in-fact ‘Outlier’



The proof that they are faster is the feat in the scan itself.

Kakashi warps a Kunai, the attack you say it's too fast to warp, in the fraction of the time that it takes to cross a small amount of space. Looking at the whole sequence, it moves no slower once it's redirected towards Naruto.

He warps a Shinra Tensei powered Nail(ST which has been activated and repelled Kunais and faster objects before), Susanoo arrows etc.

If you want to believe a Kunai Toss is faster than a Kicked Kunai, Susanoo arrows, and ST Nail projectile, please do so, but don't bother posting proof, since there isn't any.



> 1. Kakashi is using his Long Range warp on Obito at the same time Obito uses his own self warp this is how they doubled the speed; if Kakashi could warp Obito by himself, he wouldn’t have needed to double the speed risking his life, Madara wouldn’t have thought he could counter Kakashi Kamui with TSB and so on




Kakashi's regular long range Kamui was not present at any time.

in fact, every time Kakashi has attempted to warp Obito, we have seen Obito's self warp spiral pattern instead of the barrier collapsing onto itself belonging to the faster long distance warps and not self transfer.



Any way you put it, Obito was transfering himself, how or why it's irrelevant. The only thing that panel shows us is that they synchronized to double Obito's self transfer speed.



> 2. Kakashi has enough chakra to use Kamui again after this; so he wasn’t Low enough on chakra that it would make a difference and Obito has Rikudo Chakra and Bijuu so lol at that shit



He had one small Kamui left in the tank and afterwards he was out of the fight so wrong again lol. When he has shown to be able to use it 5 times + a plethora of jutsu, you expect me to believe having a 2 small Kamui's left is not being low on chakra.

Obito has always had enhancements over Kakashi starting with Hashi's cells and never has surpassed Kakashi's kamui speed.

So you are saying Kakashi has the same Kamui speed despite all those enhacements? Wow



> 3. Minato saying Kakashi can warp the orbs away doesn’t mean he can do it before being hit by them when he’s the target, it means he can warp them away when they are floating around Madara, stationary, or when he sees an opening while Madara is fighting someone else. When the TSB needed to be intercept in route they used a Kunai toss every time



They used a Kunai toss because he couldn't accurately aim at far distances, as the panels show.



> Kakashi specifically says he can’t do this because he can’t warp at a Range anymore, but if the TSB was targeting him he could warp it as it would be flying at him into Close Range; *so it’s obvious Minato and him were talking about warping the TSB when they were attacking him*



Wow so you admitting that both Minato and Kakashi believe he can warp the TSB's when attacking him at no less than close range, where it would be much harder to track than having a headstart at long range.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

So that's ignoring the people who threw the kunai (you're saying Kakashi can throw the kunai with the same force as 6 Gated Lee), the situations and the spatial manipulations (lack of) in each scenario. No Turrin, Minato/Jiraiya don't magically have counters to TSBs. 



Turrin said:


> Nah I just put care and thought into my posts; unlike you



>"Jiraiya's imperfect SM is as strong as Naruto's perfect SM"
>"Jiraiya can use Kawazu Kamite exactly like Naruto"
>"CS2 = perfect SM in power"

The amount of thought you put in your posts is debatable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Oct 16, 2019)

Most of these examples are using a god tier character shooting balls and one with god tier reflexes and speed.

And the only one who is not fully related, is tied to the same example of Lee putting a Kunai in front of Gai, Gaara lifting his sand before Gai finished his last step and Kakashi using Kamui side by side with Gai's last step before he clashed with the shield.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

Soul said:


> Still way better than being biased. Being at my best is worthless when people rarely reply with actual arguments. It just isn't worth it in today's NBD.



You get some posters that are worth it, tbh. Not many, ofc, but some.



Turrin said:


> Oh your also bias though clearly





Turrin said:


> So your method then; or at least I assure you it feels the same way



Turrin got tired of being the whipping boy after all these years. 



Soul said:


> You can say a lot of things about my posting style, but I am not biased at all.
> Post an example of me posting something other than facts or a reasonable interpretation of a feat when debating.



Untrue. I wouldn't consider myself bias, but you could claim I'm bias. Likewise, you could post an argument you believe is objective and I could call you bias. It seems the tagging of bias is also subjective... except in extreme cases where we can concur i.e. when Turrin blatantly ignores what the series says and shows to run with some of his points.


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## ZmkSc (Oct 16, 2019)

This is hilarious and dump as shit. the way you spam threads about kakashi and how you present in your thread tell me you are mentally and probably even physically damaged by the whole thing of kakashi’s character and his fans. You really need to get some help.

-   Rikudo chakra was never stated or implied to increase kamui speed. That is something you totally came up with. but we know it enhances one’s physical reaction speed. So rikudo amped obito’s physical reactions is what superior to full body transportation kamui’s speed.

-   Obito has two distinct type of kamui warping smartass. One that is used to warp other objects and one that is used to warp one self.  The former kamui is stated to be faster than full body transfer kamui. That was explained by konan.  Kakashi can use two types of kamui too but in both short and long range.  Using the long range offensive kamui to teleport allies could rip them apart if not aimed carefully while the full body transfer kamui  pulls the whole objects in to the other dimension and is drawn differently in manga. That was hinted when kakashi ripped off  hachibi’s tentacle while warping bee’s biju mode to the other dimension  because of a miscalculated aiming. While when kakashi uses kamui to warp sakura, naruto and obito, his kamui takes a spiral shape [*Link Removed*] [X] [X] instead of the usual wrinkled barrier [X] [*Link Removed*] [*Link Removed*]  implying different application  of kamui.  When kakashi uses kamui to increase obito’s jumping speed, he also applies full body teleportation kamui on top of obito’s  and thus the whole DOUBLING thing even though kakashi's kamui was shown and implied before by the author in direct comparison to be at least as fast as obito's warping other objects which is faster than his  self teleportation kamui.

-  TSB was shown and implied to be faster than self teleportation kamui speed not the offensive usual kamui. On contrary it was implied by minato that kakashi could warp these TSB using his kamui and kakashi’s bad sight was the only handicap not speed. And before you say BS  like he could warp it while floating around not before it hits him, the implication was that kakashi could warp TSB before it hits Gai exactly like minato did. even if TSB is faster than offensive kamui in the sense that it could travel few meters before kamui can finish warping, that changes nothing as you hilariously underestimate the speed of TSB.

-  The nail in the coffin of your delusions is the fact that following your poor understanding of manga by building your whole argument on punch of interruption feats would lead us to the conclusion that kunai toss is faster than 8th gate gai which is dump. Even if we assumed  gai slowed down , which he obviously didn't as minato himself told him to "keep going no matter what" , that doesn't change the fact that TSB WERE FAST ENOUGH TO COUNTER ATTACK 8TH GATE GAI while kunai toss  is logically nowhere near the speed of that otherwise everyone and their mother could launch attacks as fast as 8th gate gai's top speed which was too fast according to even JJ Madara. TSB is attack that JJ madara consistently relied on. It is fast enough that kakashi can’t evade physically while I am damn sure kakashi can evade a kunai tossed by someone like himself. And before you come up with BS like he needed to use kamui, kakashi can use move while using kamui as shown when he warped diedara’s arm [*Link Removed*] and when he warped naruto’s clone. it is fast enough that garra think his sand can't evade them. Thinking a kunai toss is as fast as that or faster because of some  interception feats is laughable at best. Coordinated and interruption feats in the manga aren't a showing of speed equality or superiority_ and a lot of examples prove._


-    You hide behind your  conclusion of kunai being faster than kamui  to prove that kamui isn't too fast making use of how people look down on kunai. Whether kunai is faster or not, that doesn’t  mean jack shit. Kamui is canonically faster than attacks that most shinobi can’t evade. This is manga fact that needs  no further BS explanation from your side. Susano arrow is fast enough that danzu consistently couldn’t evade or weave hand seals before it hits him even though the arrows were fired from more than 20m distance. FACT . Susasno arrow is fast enough that kakashi couldn’t evade it physically. FACT. Susano arrow is fast enough that sasuke was left open-mouthed when he saw kabuto  dodge them [*Link Removed*]. FACT . Kamui is fast enough to warp flying rasengan kicked by jin madara as it makes contact with his body and before it could inflict any damage while  Similar attack was too fast for garra to block with his sand.  FACT .Kamui is fast enough to warp a detonating  explosion. FACT. Kamui is fast enough to warp ST accelerated nail and missles. FACT.  Kakashi’s  kamui is fast enough to warp naruto’s clone before obito’s warping out stake hits it which means kakashi’s offensive kamui warping speed is at least as fast as obito’s  warping oter objects speed. FACT. And no obito didn’t warp multiple stakes at the time kakakshi warped the clone. It was a single stake that obito started  warping out  after he saw kamui on naruto’s rasengan before kakashi adjusts the location and size of kamui’s barrier to envelop the clone and warp it [*Link Removed*]. Same obito’s kamui speed that was fast enough to warp sakura faster than TSB stake thrown by JJ Madara [*Link Removed*]. FACT. same obito's kamui speed that was too fast for gai and naruto working together to exploit the short window when he becomes tangible [X]. FACT. and following the same line of thought of yours, i could go further and say kakashi;s Kamui was fast enough to rip off madara's TSB shield before 8th gate gai could cross few meters. even the implication behind madara's statement of how he "has  discovered" that "his attacks" are faster than kamui's transportation speed [*Link Removed*] should debunk your whole argument.

If you think kunai toss is faster than susano arrows, explosions, objects thrown and kicked by JJ madara( which is hilarious to even come cross your mind), KCM naruto and gai's combined effort , it changes nothing. all you did that you exaggerated the speed of kunai toss using some interception feats. that is it. your kunai toss is simply too fast lmfao. not to mention that this doesn't explain shit of how most of people would even react to kamui before it spawns on them when they can't see it coming neither sense it. that didn't explain how anyone who has been already enveloped by space time barrier would do any jack shit to stop kamui when gedo still lost the enveloped  part of his body even after  teleporting using summonning jutsu although kakashi hadn't yet triggered the warping and was still adjusting the barrier size and location.

-  Lol at kakashi not using kamui in some of his battles because it wouldn’t have worked. I really need the shit you are smoking. If the author shares your opinion of kamui not being relevant in this battles, he would have easily drawn kakashi  use it on panel and fail, dumpass. Is that also  why kakashi thinks he could take down fuckin’ masked madara with kamui? . it is completely the other way around. The author always held kakashi off from using kamui  unless it is not hurtful to his plans for the story or if there is a counter for it.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Soul said:


> You can say a lot of things about my posting style, but I am not biased at all.
> Post an example of me posting something other than facts or a reasonable interpretation of a feat when debating.


Yes you are bias for Kakashi


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## Soul (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes you are bias for Kakashi



Post an example.
It seems like 95% of the posters are biased for Kakashi from where you stand.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Soul said:


> Post an example.
> It seems like 95% of the posters are biased for Kakashi from where you stand.


This post is a clear example; I’ve called like 5 posts Biased towards Kakashi; and you in this post conflate that to 95% because you are lying about my stance as you are a but hurt Kakashi fanboy and don’t like my opinion on the character


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Most of these examples are using a god tier character shooting balls and one with god tier reflexes and speed.
> 
> And the only one who is not fully related, is tied to the same example of Lee putting a Kunai in front of Gai, Gaara lifting his sand before Gai finished his last step and Kakashi using Kamui side by side with Gai's last step before he clashed with the shield.


Interesting that you ignore the other characters, statements, interactions, and direct showings that place Kunai Toss around TSB, and only focus on a single one; it’s almost like you don’t understand that the OP is using many pieces of evidence rather then just one


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Later I’ll address this absolute nonsense about Kakashi Barrier Kamui magically being faster then the same Kamui that doesn’t require a barrier also; even though it barely dignifies a response (like somehow adding a step decreases time lol)


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Later I’ll address this absolute nonsense about Kakashi Barrier Kamui magically being faster then the same Kamui that doesn’t require a barrier also; even though it barely dignifies a response (like somehow adding a step decreases time lol)



Since when does it make sense that a Kamui user's self transfer speed is slower than warping other objects?

Go complain to Kishi for the rules he set.



Still waiting for anything that indicates that a Shinra Tensei'd nail, a pair of Susanoo arrows and Kunai that was flying in mid air, are any slower than the Kunai's thrown in your "examples"


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## Santoryu (Oct 16, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> This is hilarious and dump as shit. the way you spam threads about kakashi and how you present in your thread tell me you are mentally and probably even physically damaged by the whole thing of kakashi’s character and his fans. You really need to get some help.
> 
> -   Rikudo chakra was never stated or implied to increase kamui speed. That is something you totally came up with. but we know it enhances one’s physical reaction speed. So rikudo amped obito’s physical reactions is what superior to full body transportation kamui’s speed.
> 
> ...



Given how he has been sexually harassing so many members, I'm going to assume the guy is very sexually frustrated.

He needs to relax


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## ZmkSc (Oct 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Given how he has been sexually harassing so many members, I'm going to assume the guy is very sexually frustrated.
> 
> He needs to relax


yeah i suggest that too. i also suggest changing the thread's title to " The counter of tossed kunai being too slow" because that is all what he did 
it is like arguing Bee is slower than suigutsu because suigutsu is faster than Ay. you wouldn't be downplaying bee's speed but rather mistakenly exaggerating suigutsu's speed. that is exactly what he did here.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

So recently a new arguments have popped from that Kakashi wankers to try and fanfic their way out of the massive amount of evidence in the opening

This is the idea that Kakashi Ranged Kamui is ‘different my then Obito’s ‘self warp’ Kamui; and therefore faster. And the reason he didn’t warp Obito with this Kamui is ether A, unexplained by those using this argument or B, the explanation is that Kakashi Kamui is ‘dangerous’

This argument is centered around two concepts

1. Obito saying his Self Warp Kamui is slower then warping other objects

2. Kakashi Kamui not having a spiral some of the times it’s used


——


Okay so first address point 1 Obito self warp Kamui is indeed ‘slower’ then when he warps other objects, but we’ve seen Obito warp other objects and it’s still the ‘spiral’ Kamui:

So it’s the same technique; it’s just apparently the action of using Kamui on, oneself takes longer then using it on other objects/people. But if you read the opening I’m talking about Kakashi using Kamui on ‘Obito’ not ‘himself, so this is irrelevant.

——

Now to address the second argument that Kakashi Kamui is different because the spatial distortion is drawn different; and is therefore somehow “faster”.

Kakashi spatial distortion looks different in earlier chapters because he’s forming a barrier around the target that Kakashi use to support his usage of Kamui:

So the only reason it’s different is because Kakashi is adding a step of creating a barrier, so how could adding a step make something faster?

Well, obviously it wouldn’t; and the simply truth of the matter is Kakashi got better since then and no longer need the barrier (so if anything his spiral one would be faster, not slower, but whatever).

But hey let’s say your debating a Kakashi wanker and he doesn’t accept that saying they are definitely 2 different Kamui; with different speeds; well then the Spiral One would still be faster a Kakashi choose to use the Spiral one during times when he specifically needed to warp objects as fast as possible like warping Obito and Sakura/Naruto to box land before Madara could get them.


Now the counter here will be he used the spiral one because the other one is somehow ‘not safe’; as Kakashi might not warp an Object in fully, so he uses the safer spiral one on human targets.

But Kakashi in the WA clearly warped solid objects like Rasengan / Kunai without leaving any part of them behind and even warped an entire clone with this method without doing any damage to the clone. So he can clearly use the “first type” of Kamui to warp full objects and people just fine.

And we’ve also seen him use the spiral one to warp Objects too also when he needed to be as fast as possible to save him from Rasengan:


So yeah ether way Kakashi warping other people things with spiral Kamui being slower then this other Kamui (which is the same thing only with the added step of a barrier); is completely false


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Given how he has been sexually harassing so many members, I'm going to assume the guy is very sexually frustrated.
> 
> He needs to relax


Kakashi assumes the same about your harassment of him


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> yeah i suggest that too. i also suggest changing the thread's title to " The counter of tossed kunai being too slow".


Feel free to start hyping up the idea that a Kunai toss is really fast, I don’t care; it still means most High Tier Ninja throw a Kunai at Kakashi and his Kunai is distrusted and Kamui One-Shot isn’t happening


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## Santoryu (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi assumes the same about your harassment of him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

@Soul After years of being the whipping boy, Turrin is fighting back with the school shooter vibes.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

What triggered Turrin? Was there a Minato/Jiraiya vs Kamui related post?


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


>


Dude again please don’t show me Kakashi Jonin ass face when he looks at you


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## Santoryu (Oct 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What triggered Turrin? Was there a Minato/Jiraiya vs Kamui related post?



Sexual frustration can make a man crazy it would seem.


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## Santoryu (Oct 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> @Soul After years of being the whipping boy, Turrin is fighting back with the school shooter vibes.


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## Soul (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This post is a clear example; I’ve called like 5 posts Biased towards Kakashi; and you in this post conflate that to 95% because you are lying about my stance as you are a but hurt Kakashi fanboy and don’t like my opinion on the character



How is that an example? Told you that it looks that way because the poll I made has the vast majority saying Kakashi is Kage level, which was about 19/20 without counting your vote. 
No bias at all


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## Soul (Oct 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> @Soul After years of being the whipping boy, Turrin is fighting back with the school shooter vibes.



Yeah, I guess he finally lost it. Took longer than expected, but it's also worse than what I imagined it would be.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Sexual frustration can make a man crazy it would seem.





Santoryu said:


>



This is worrying when paired with the school shooter vibes... should we not report this to prevent another incel attack or something?



Soul said:


> Yeah, I guess he finally lost it. Took longer than expected, but it's also worse than what I imagined it would be.



I thought by now he'd learn to be succinct, tbh.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Soul said:


> How is that an example? Told you that it looks that way because the poll I made has the vast majority saying Kakashi is Kage level, which was about 19/20 without counting your vote.
> No bias at all


Just because someone disagree with me, doesn’t mean they are ‘bias’; I call people ‘bias’ whose opinion of the ‘characters’ is such where they won’t consider other view points or people who get pissy becuase someone doesn’t agree with them on ‘how’ they feel something ‘should’ work or how a character ‘should’ perform, but actually ‘never’ did in the Manga.

You easily fall into both categories since returning to the forum....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Just because someone disagree with me, doesn’t mean they are ‘bias’; I call people ‘bias’ whose opinion of the ‘characters’ is such where they won’t consider other view points or people who get pissy becuase someone doesn’t agree with them on ‘how’ they feel something ‘should’ work or how a character ‘should’ perform, but actually ‘never’ did in the Manga.
> 
> You easily fall into both categories since returning to the forum....



NF, this is the definition of irony.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Sexual frustration can make a man crazy it would seem.


Is that why you think Kakashi isn’t a Jonin lol


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## ZmkSc (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Feel free to start hyping up the idea that a Kunai toss is really fast, I don’t care; it still means most High Tier Ninja throw a Kunai at Kakashi and his Kunai is distrusted and Kamui One-Shot isn’t happening


i amnot hyping shit. according to you kunai toss is faster than JJ madara' TSB, susano arrows, objects kicked and thrown by Juubi jins( which is equivalent to saying kakashi is faster than JJ madara lmfao), KCM naruto and Gai's combined CQC effort, Kaguya's ash bone...etc so according to you, NOT ME, kunai is one of fastest attacks in manga so kamui being some invincible  omnipotent "ultra fast " Kunai which can't be blocked or tanked with resizable AOE   doesn't downplay it. even your god tier kunai toss isn't a counter as kunai would be already within the enveloped part of space being/to be warped so it would get simply warped along with the target. not to mention that kakashi needs to keep focusing on target only when he needs to held off the warping to adjust the location and size of the barrier otherwise the barrier would collapse onto itself warping everything inside.  good luck these high tiers to even detect when kakashi  will use kamui before it spawns on them already when they can't see it coming.
is that why kakashi thinks he could warp masked madara?  is that why diedara was throwing shit at kakashi while trapped inside kamui's barrier to disrupt his kamui? is that why obito's 'other objects' kamui which is canonically at best as fast as kakashi's was too fast that naruto and gai's combined effort failed to exploit the moment when he is tangible while warping objects in and out?
man put some clothes on


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> i amnot hyping shit. according to you kunai toss is faster than JJ madara' TSB, susano arrows, objects kicked and thrown by Juubi jins( which is equivalent to saying kakashi is faster than JJ madara lmfao), KCM naruto and Gai's combined CQC effort, Kaguya's ash bone...etc so according to you, NOT ME, kunai is one of fastest attacks in manga so kamui being some invincible  omnipotent "ultra fast " Kunai which can't be blocked or tanked with resizable AOE   doesn't downplay it. even your god tier kunai toss isn't a counter as kunai would be already within the enveloped part of space being/to be warped so it would get simply warped along with the target. not to mention that kakashi needs to keep focusing on target only when he needs to held off the warping to adjust the location and size of the barrier otherwise the barrier would collapse onto itself warping everything inside.  good luck these high tiers to even detect when kakashi  will use kamui before it spawns on them already when they can't see it coming.
> is that why kakashi thinks he could warp masked madara?  is that why diedara was throwing shit at kakashi while trapped inside kamui's barrier to disrupt his kamui? is that why obito's 'other objects' kamui which is canonically at best as fast as kakashi's was too fast that naruto and gai's combined effort failed to exploit the moment when he is tangible while warping objects in and out?
> man put some clothes on


I have not made any of those statements, not saying I disagree with them, but your attack a ‘straw-man’, I said the most consistent measurement for TSB speed placed it around a Kunai Toss of a ‘Jonin/Kage level’. If you want to argue it’s not feel free to present more evidence then the mountain of evidence I did.

The rest of you nonsense I could careless about


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

What thread/posts triggered Turrin?!


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## Santoryu (Oct 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What thread/posts triggered Turrin?!



He once made a thread citing Kakashi as Zabuza level. 

Most reasonable disagreed with it. 
Ever since he's been obsessed with Kakashi


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> He once made a thread citing Kakashi as Zabuza level.
> 
> Most reasonable disagreed with it.
> Ever since he's been obsessed with Kakashi


You once made a thread that Kakashi Not Jonin level and Kishimoto disagreed with it when he had Kakahsi struggle with Zabuza and the swordsman again in the war and you’ve been obsessed with it ever since


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You once made a thread that Kakashi Not Jonin level and Kishimoto disagreed with it when he had Kakahsi struggle with Zabuza and the swordsman again in the war and you’ve been obsessed with it ever since



You once made a thread that Jiraiya's SM abilities are exactly on Naruto's level and Kishimoto disagreed when he had everyone say Naruto is a better Sage with better Senjutsu and you've been obsessed with Jiraiya being a perfect Sage ever since.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2019)

What am I doing? I guess I’m looking at a picture of you in Naruto cosplay, paying someone in a Sakura cosplay to watching you bush dive a Kakashi blow up doll.

Really freaky dude


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## Santoryu (Oct 16, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> man put some clothes on





My teachings to combat the lewdness in the nbd has passed on to the next generation!!!


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## Speedyamell (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I said don’t debate me on Sakura


I wasn't "debating" you, I was correcting a point of which your debate partly depended on.. using bad examples hinder the quality of your final verdict

And my second point wasn't sakura related, but we're going pretend it was


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## Soul (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Just because someone disagree with me, doesn’t mean they are ‘bias’; I call people ‘bias’ whose opinion of the ‘characters’ is such where they won’t consider other view points.



I read your points, and they make zero sense, that  one poster summed it up well enough.
This is why pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you.



> people who get pissy becuase someone doesn’t agree with them on ‘how’ they feel something ‘should’ work or how a character ‘should’ perform, but actually ‘never’ did in the Manga.



I explained Kakashi's performance. Looked pretty good to everyone except you.



> You easily fall into both categories since returning to the forum



Then why is no one but you disagreeing with me?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This argument is centered around two concepts
> 
> 1. Obito saying his Self Warp Kamui is slower then warping other objects
> 
> 2. Kakashi Kamui not having a spiral some of the times it’s used



Those are not concepts, they are facts.




> Okay so first address point 1 Obito self warp Kamui is indeed ‘slower’ then when he warps other objects, but we’ve seen Obito warp other objects and it’s still the ‘spiral’ Kamui:
> 
> So it’s the same technique; it’s just apparently the action of using Kamui on, oneself takes longer then using it on other objects/people. But if you read the opening I’m talking about Kakashi using Kamui on ‘Obito’ not ‘himself, so this is irrelevant.



Obito was using his right eye Kamui as the panel depicts, so of course it would be spiral Kamui.



> Now to address the second argument that Kakashi Kamui is different because the spatial distortion is drawn different; and is therefore somehow “faster”.
> 
> Kakashi spatial distortion looks different in earlier chapters because he’s forming a barrier around the target that Kakashi use to support his usage of Kamui:
> 
> ...



Is that why he kept warping projectiles and attacks using the barrier Kamui instead of the spiral one?

Keep in mind this panel specifically shows him using the left eye, unlike Obito in your example




> But hey let’s say your debating a Kakashi wanker and he doesn’t accept that saying they are definitely 2 different Kamui; with different speeds; well then the Spiral One would still be faster a Kakashi choose to use the Spiral one during times when he specifically needed to warp objects as fast as possible like warping Obito and Sakura/Naruto to box land before Madara could get them.
> 
> 
> Now the counter here will be he used the spiral one because the other one is somehow ‘not safe’; as Kakashi might not warp an Object in fully, so he uses the safer spiral one on human targets.
> ...



No real explanation huh?

The only that matters is that Kishi showed a clear distinction between these Spiral and Barrier Kamui and Kakashi clearly did not use the barrier Kamui on Obito.



> And we’ve also seen him use the spiral one to warp Objects too also when he needed to be as fast as possible to save him from Rasengan:



What indicates he used the spiral Kamui there?



> So yeah ether way Kakashi warping other people things with spiral Kamui being slower then this other Kamui (which is the same thing only with the added step of a barrier); is completely false



All I see is a whole bunch of assumptions and no real explanation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

1. One of the points (Part 2, pt. 2) is simply wrong [], because it's an implied feat for *Minato*, and involves Hiraishin. It has nothing to do with the kunai toss; it was about Minato's original plan to have _Kakashi_ warp the Gudōdama, which never came to fruition. This weakens the claim regarding 'outlier'.

2. Madara vs. Kakashi and Obito can be reconciled with Kakashi's previous feats by invoking the principle that consistency should always be assumed, unless there's a compelling to believe otherwise. If this is done, then the other points are rendered meaningless.

_Hint #1—it's the principle of dōjutsu at work here [, ] and Obito even tells Madara, Do you remember saying that? []._ _Kakashi and Obito's Sharingan are connected [, ].
Hint #2—Madara never said anything about the speed of Kakashi's Kamui. *All* he said was that Kakashi would warp Obito, if Obito causes distraction, which can be understood as him trying to *pre-empt *Kakashi [when he attacks them at the same time]._


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## Alucardemi (Oct 17, 2019)

These interception feats in Naruto, especially those meant to save plot-shielded characters, are -- I always find -- unreliable.

Didn't something like 5th or 6th Gate Lee move faster than both the Gudoudama and the kunai on that scene where he rescued Gai? Moreover, didn't Gai himself move faster than the Gudoudama, earlier, with his physical speed? Both these characters have inferior physical speed to KMC Naruto, one whom, back when they were fighting the Juubi, attempted to jump Obito from a shorter distance and was successfully foiled by Kamui's self-teleportation. There's no way they'd be able to succeed in that scenario where KMC Naruto failed.

I think your error is agglutinating two distinct types of plot element, each with different decisions which justify them: you're confusing the lines between plot's points and contrivances.

Point ~ The comparison between Kamui and TSB's speed is an ironclad element of contingency for the plot of the story to continue: allowing for the Kakashi/Obito team-up, Gai saving Kakashi from certain death, et cetera -- without it, there'd be no threads to follow in that particular situation. More importantly, the fact that it receives direct focus is what makes it indisputable that Kamui has to be slower than TSB. This therefore makes the plot-point of TSB being faster than Kamui an absolute necessity that Kishi has to weigh in on and apply a level of cognizance to. He has to both show and tell you -- and I mean this in both forms of text; sketching and prose -- exactly what was happening if he is to deliver an effective story. It's not something that exists, contextually or subtextually, as a deducible element of plot; i.e., there is no ambiguity in its importance to the plot, given its emphasis. Emphasis is what's important here -- that being the equivalent to the form of all Art, which is just an enhanced mode of overemphasizing. As that scene and the first half of the encounter so definitely emphasize this speed comparison, we can read it with some measure of security as to its consistency -- because it is logically needed for the plot-points that follow with Obito and Kakashi. That's what you could approximate to a plot-point.

Contrivance ~ Contrast that with the multiple kunai throws and other interceptions, and what's the difference? It is the focus and emphasis: that's what differentiates a plot-point; wherein you can be absolutely sure that the author at least attempted to double-check his consistency, and that it is integral and necessary for the existence of the chain of plot-threads, from or a sub-textual deduction based on observations which are, by focus, not emphasized at all. What makes people distrustful of interception feats in particular is precisely when the speed of both parties is not emphasized at all by the story and, therefore, it appears that what happened is a fact that could be substituted by any other myriad of random facts, all of which are ultimately unnecessary to the story as other elements of it are not contingent upon it. It is, therefore, a plot-contrivance; and not a plot-point.

What would have changed in the plot's threads, for instance, if instead of the interception by a thrown kunai or Lee, Temari just happened to push Gai out of the way with some wind jutsu at the last moment. Not much, Lee could just then arrive at the scene, because unlike what you're proposing in your OP, the instance of focus in that moment is neither Lee's speed, nor Gai's, nor the Kunai's, nor the TSB's. Absolutely none of these speeds are integral to forming the scene in a literary way. Those are contrivances -- either consistent or inconsistent -- created to facilitate the plot; and thus are, by nature, a sub-textual element you have deduced, and not necessarily something which we can be sure Kishimoto took into account when designing plot-threads. The aspect of speed on those feats are subject to stricter criteria, unlike those in your first example; they can be rejected, while what you unambiguously see in the previous scene with Obito and Kakashi vs Madara cannot.

So the problem I see with your argument is, like I said, lending the same literary weight to elements of the plot which don't, inherently, have the same weight. Gudoudama speed in comparison to Kamui's self-warp is indisputable -- however, Kamui's speed in comparison to a regular kunai toss exists as a deduction from the interaction between Gudoudamas and kunais where either speed wasn't the focus or Kishi needed a timely intervention -- which need not be meaningful and, thus, does not necessarily integrate the story on the higher levels of interpretation.

Yes, we do make these deductions you've made, and yes again; they are necessary if we wish to even engage in this hobby. Even so, what you must realize is that to deduce what you have thus deduced, coming not from a solid plot-point, but rather a contrivance, is shaky at best. You are lending weight to the scene, and you are making your arguments as to why it is consistent, but there are arguments as numerable to the contrary, from dozens of other interceptions, which you can directly relate to Kamui's speed. They're not really axiomatic of unambiguous elements. Referencing back to the beginning of my post, I just used the same form of syllogism as you to reach the opposite conclusion.

So I'd argue that interceptions are only valid when the story unambiguously focuses on the speed of the players involved. Otherwise, it most often has the nature of a meaningless contrivance and has to be weighed heavily with everything else to see if it makes sense.


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## LostSelf (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Interesting that you ignore the other characters, statements, interactions, and direct showings that place Kunai Toss around TSB, and only focus on a single one; it’s almost like you don’t understand that the OP is using many pieces of evidence rather then just one



I am pretty sure I focused my post on all three instances you provided. Go back and read it slower before saying nobody understands your OP.

The only non god tier example you used to say Kamui is not fast is the very same example where Kakashi uses Kamui before 8th Gated Gai could complete his last fastest step.

Basically, you destroyed your own long post adding that.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> I am pretty sure I focused my post on all three instances you provided. Go back and read it slower before saying nobody understands your OP.
> 
> The only non god tier example you used to say Kamui is not fast is the very same example where Kakashi uses Kamui before 8th Gated Gai could complete his last fastest step.
> 
> Basically, you destroyed your own long post adding that.


Clearly you didn’t understand my opening; as we see that TSB is equal to a Kunai toss based on Kakashi Toss also matching it and several other statements and character interactions indicating that they all believe a Kunai toss could match it


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Alucardemi said:


> These interception feats in Naruto, especially those meant to save plot-shielded characters, are -- I always find -- unreliable.
> 
> Didn't something like 5th or 6th Gate Lee move faster than both the Gudoudama and the kunai on that scene where he rescued Gai? Moreover, didn't Gai himself move faster than the Gudoudama, earlier, with his physical speed? Both these characters have inferior physical speed to KMC Naruto, one whom, back when they were fighting the Juubi, attempted to jump Obito from a shorter distance and was successfully foiled by Kamui's self-teleportation. There's no way they'd be able to succeed in that scenario where KMC Naruto failed.
> 
> ...


You can claim something as ‘plot’ as an answer to any argument, we could equally say Kakashi other Kamui feats that you subjectively place at a higher level of speed are plot’ as well. It also doesn’t change the fact that this is the most supported measurement of Kamui, speed; so choosing to believe this is ‘plot’ and not the other individual feats you believe make it faster is inherently bias towards an agenda of Kamui being as ‘fast’ as you subjectively think it should be. Especially when you consider in ‘plot’, as in in the manga, Kakashi has never against an opponent blitz’d their head off with Kamui.

 So the ‘plot’ definitely does not lend itself well to taking what you believe are Kamui high end “Feats” and transporting them into a combat scenario and then in turn asserting that speed would result in Kakashi using Kamui effectively against ‘higher level’ enemies to quickly defeat them. While this measurement flows much more smoothly ‘within’ the plot as it explains why Kakashi couldn’t easily overcome the foes he faced with Kamui; as Kamui is not faster then many attacks from the Ninja he faced and therefore he need to concentrate on defending their attacks until he could create an opening with a clone or his teammates could create an opening, which also flows well with Kamui becoming more useful when Kakashi has high level allies to help distract his enemy while he uses Kamui. This being the exact strategy that Madara actually assumes Kakashi will use with Obito to successful warp someone with Kamui; even further supports this idea plot wise

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Clearly you didn’t understand my opening; as we see that TSB is equal to a Kunai toss based on Kakashi Toss also matching it and several other statements and character interactions indicating that they all believe a Kunai toss could match it



Not mentioning how the entire post is talking about Obito's body phasing, not Kamui snipe. Let's start forming the mistakes on the post.

By following your examples:

Susano'o arrows are now slower than thrown Kunais.
Kakashi and anyone slower than him are slower than thrown Kunais.
Obito was dogging the Raikage with phasing, considering you are using his teleportation as "Kakashi's Kamui", we can also use that, no? So, the Raikage is slower than a thrown Kunai.
Let's notice how Minato needed Hiraishin to hit Obito. So thrown Kunais are faster than Hiraishin.

Let's take into consideration how you added Rock Lee intercepting 8th Gated Gai with a Kunai to say Kamui is slow while at the same time blatantly ignoring how Kakashi could also activate Kamui and warp Madara's shield before Gated Gai closed in.

Forget the above examples if you like. The last example basically means you think both Kakashi and a thrown Kunai can be used before 8th Gated Gai moves.

In which case, Kakashi should be able to Kamui anything slower than 8th Gated Gai. I mean, if we're going to take something of a sequence as valid, we might as well take everything. Or this would just be nickpicking.

But then again, body phasing =/= Kamui. Kamui has been faster than proyectiles faster than thrown Kunais like Susano'o arrows. Unless, again, you think Rock Lee can blitz anyone slower than Sharingan precog Kakashi with a thrown Kunai.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Those are not concepts, they are facts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Why did he use a spiral Kamui to try and warp Obito twice when the fate of the world was on the line of its ‘much’ slower then the one with the barrier?

2. Why did Kakashi use the spiral one to warp away the Rasengan, if the Barrier one is faster (Yes it was the Spiral one, you can see it clear as day).

3. Why would an extra step of creating a barrier make Kamui faster?

Until you can answer these questions in an adequate way, your premise isn’t even worth taking seriously


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Not mentioning how the entire post is talking about Obito's body phasing, not Kamui snipe. Let's start forming the mistakes on the post.
> 
> By following your examples:
> 
> ...


‘Proof’ Susanoo arrows are faster then Kunai Toss; ‘Proof’ Kakashi warping those arrows aren’t the ‘outlier’ rather then a far more measurable and support performance shown the OP.


I never used Obito teleportation as Kakashi’s Kamui; so that is a lie or misunderstanding of the opening. Nether Obito self warp or Kakashi warping Obito was faster then the TSB; that’s why the resolves to double Kamui speed even at the cost of Kakashi risking his life, it’s all their in the opening if you bothered to read 

Okay so that argument you present with Gai, indicates ether A) Gai slowed down or B) Gai speed being that slow there is the ‘Outlier’; Kunai Toss being equal to TSB in that scene is consistent with other ‘feats’ Kakashi matching the TSB with his toss right before this; and character statements from Minato and all the other characters present believing the tossed Kunai could match the TSB.

I never said body phasing did lol


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> I read your points, and they make zero sense, that  one poster summed it up well enough.
> This is why pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you.
> 
> 
> ...


1.  I call people ‘bias’ whose opinion of the ‘characters’ is such where they won’t consider other view points

2. And you over-inflated ego insisting ‘everyone’ agrees with you is only further evidence of your extreme bias in this scenario


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## LostSelf (Oct 17, 2019)

You know what has also been consistent throughout the manga? People intercepting faster people. Like Suigetsu intercepting the Raikage.



Turrin said:


> ‘Proof’ Susanoo arrows are faster then Kunai Toss;



Never mind. Keep at it.

Glad to think a Kunai throw by Rock Lee can speedblitz Jiraiya. Basically why Sasuke used Susano'o to attack Kakashi when he could've killed him with a Kunai throw which is, somehow = Kamui snipe, even though the examples are for teleportation, who is different from body phasing but not different from Kakashi's Kamui for some reason.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> You know what has also been consistent throughout the manga? People intercepting faster people. Like Suigetsu intercepting the Raikage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isn’t just an ‘interception’ feat and it’s dishonest to say it is. Even before the Lee scene were see Kakashi throw a Kunai which is shown to match TSB in speed; and we seem Minato saying that a Kunai can multiple times; and every character there operating under that assumption going along with Minato. You trying to boil down the entire ‘measurement’ to one ‘feat’ and ignore it on the basis of it’s an interception is heavIly dishonest

—-

You being incapable of understanding (or dishonestly pretending you don’t understand) that their are other things that go into an attacks lethality then it’s ‘speed’ isn’t my problem. Sasuke used a Susanoo arrow there rather then a Kunai because a Kunai could be blocked by Kakashi with his other Ninjutsu or pulling out a Kunai and batting it away himself, while Susanoo arrows cant be blocked this way. Same thing with Jiraiya. So that’s not evidence or any kind of real counter argument.

The last part makes no sense or is dishonest the opening address Kakashi teleportation too


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## LostSelf (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The last part makes no sense or is dishonest the opening address Kakashi teleportation too



No, dishonest is saying Kamui snipe is slow while using a full body teleportating part of Kamui, then saying body phasing doesn't count when you're faced with counter arguments.

That's dishonest.

The only time Kakashi's offensive Kamui was shown in your examples it managed to do it's job before Gai closed in. And had been fast enough to not even be noticed by targets in the past.

Don't give me full body teleportation to label it as Kakashi's Kamui, saying Obito's phasing is not counted on the example, call Kakashi's sniping feats outlier using a different use of Kamui and call me dishonest for not buying your argument.

Let's be more serious, please.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> No, dishonest is saying Kamui snipe is slow while using a full body teleportating part of Kamui, then saying body phasing doesn't count when you're faced with counter arguments.
> 
> That's dishonest.
> 
> ...


I guess you don’t understand the opening. Mandara accounts for the possibility of Kakashi using his ‘offensive’ Kamui to warp Obito here:

Please take note of the bottom panel.

He then concludes he will stop Kakashi from doing this, by using TSB to kill him first:

So please understand that Madara believes his TSB can outspeed Kakashi’s ‘offensive’ Kamui. Kakashi also clearly agrees with this, as he resolves to combine his Kamui with Obito’s to double its speed rather then relying on just his ‘offensive’ Kamui warp to get the job done. Even still the faster double Kamui warp, barely warps Obito away in time:

That clear also shows Kakashi slower ‘offensive’ Kamui is slower then TSB, as even the faster double Kamui Kakashi was willing to die to pull off barely made it in time


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## Soul (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1.  I call people ‘bias’ whose opinion of the ‘characters’ is such where they won’t consider other view points



Again, I read your points and briefly considered, but they don't add up.



> 2. And you over-inflated ego insisting ‘everyone’ agrees with you is only further evidence of your extreme bias in this scenario



Over-inflated ego = reading the thread?
I am looking at it and it's mostly you debating everyone. Have you gone insane?

In this page alone no one but you is arguing what you are. That's four: LostSelf, Alucardemi, Hasan and Crimson. 
Get a grip, it starting to get weird.


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## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

This Iwa Jonin dude here would have trolled Madara so hard honestly


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Man outright dodged a ninja weapon thrown by Minato there 

Madara wouldn't even be able to tag him


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> Again, I read your points and briefly considered, but they don't add up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And again you ‘briefly’ considered them is equivalent to you not considering them at all due to sheer bias.

If your ego has deluded you so far into believing that 4 people is ‘everyone’ then I don’t know how to help you; except to say you suck now Soul... really disappointed in you


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> This Iwa Jonin dude here would have trolled Madara so hard honestly
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Yeah cause distance doesn’t matter....


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## ZmkSc (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> This Iwa Jonin dude here would have trolled Madara so hard honestly
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


he aslo had his attention divided by kakashi's thrust and he still could kneel completely down to evade the ultra fast kunai. this man should be able to evade the SLOWER susano arrow and with ease lmfao.


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## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> Again, I read your points and briefly considered, but they don't add up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are aware this thread is a meta commentary on Master wank? ie:small group of folks arguing something the larger group finds ridiculous


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> he aslo had his attention divided by kakashi's thrust and he still could kneel completely down to evade the ultra fast kunai. this man should be able to evade the SLOWER susano arrow and with ease lmfao.


Yeah cause distance doesn’t matter when you wanna wank Kakashi


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## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah cause distance doesn’t matter....



He wasn't even looking at Minato, he was looking at Kakashi, and still dodged. Kakashi and Obito were far from Madara too.

But ok, maybe i can use other examples:

- The Jonin level Kisame dodged a surprise pencil shot from like 1 m of distance. 

- The Jonin level Deidara dodged Shuriken even on top of his huge bird

- Ill almost blind Itachi dodged Shuriken 

- Zabuza dodged Shuriken

- Orochimaru dodged Shuriken

- Chiyo dodged multiple senbon while taking care of Sakura

- Immortals dodged Shika's knives

- Deva dodged a kunai at the last moment

- Rolling base Jiraiya dodged propelled paper

Wow that's so many people faster than Susano'o arrows and Gudodama here, these people would all have trolled Madara. Hell, Jiraiya just would have had to roll in the ground and Madara wouldn't be able to tag him. 

No wonder Kakashi didn't try Kamui on Zabuza, the man would have outright dodged it


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## Soul (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And again you ‘briefly’ considered them is equivalent to you not considering them at all due to sheer bias.



Hahahaha sure thing Turrin.



> If your ego has deluded you so far into believing that 4 people is ‘everyone’ then I don’t know how to help you; except to say you suck now Soul... really disappointed in you



There is literally no one in your side. The rest of the people arguing against you figured out there is nothing to gain because you are twisting arguments so they stopped. 



ShinAkuma said:


> You are aware this thread is a meta commentary on Master wank? ie:small group of folks arguing something the larger group finds ridiculous



I guess. Just weird that it's him alone and still doesn't considers him being wrong


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## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> I guess. Just weird that it's him alone and still doesn't considers him being wrong



Remember that meta thing I just said?


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## ZmkSc (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah cause distance doesn’t matter when you wanna wank Kakashi


the distance between susano and kakashi or danzu wasn't small either yet they couldn't react physically. and this man had his attention divided as he was focusing on kakashi before minato threw the kunai at him  so he only noticed the kunai after it got closer not before.
and also  kisame dodged point blank 2 inch away raiton pencil with ease while also having his attention divided.
*Link Removed* 
and 
*Link Removed* 

*Link Removed* 
and again 

*Link Removed* 

if you still think kunai toss , which was evaded in manga multiple times from point blank range with ease even with distractions , is any faster than susano arrows which Kakashi and Danzu ,who were paying full attention to the Susano, couldnt evade even though it was fired from much further distances , then don't bother respond .


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> the distance between susano and kakashi or danzu wasn't small either yet they couldn't react physically. and this man had his attention divided as he was focusing on kakashi before minato threw the kunai at him  so he only noticed the kunai after it got closer not before.
> and also  kisame dodged point blank 2 inch away raiton pencil with ease while also having his attention divided.
> *Link Removed*
> and
> ...


When did Kakashi say he couldn’t react to Susanoo arrows; he clearly could has he used Kamui; what he couldn’t do is dodge them outright (they were bigger then a Kunai and harder to dodge); and couldn’t block them with anything other then Kamui defensively speaking.

I also think you seem to be under the impression that I don’t think High Tier characters like Kisame and Rinnegan Jins could avoid TSB, which is false; I believe they can as you clearly see Kakashi react to TSB and toss Kunai at it. Could they keep doing it consistently when TSB can move in any direction and change its shape; no way

Now do I think the Jonin could from Gaiden, probably not at the same distance.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> Hahahaha sure thing Turrin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need to understand that your exaggerations aren’t reality; also who is or isn’t on my side doesn’t change the facts; and that this is thee most consistent ‘measurement’ of Kamui speed unless you can show a more consistent on Soul


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## Soul (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You need to understand that your exaggerations aren’t reality; also who is or isn’t on my side doesn’t change the facts; and that this is thee most consistent ‘measurement’ of Kamui speed unless you can show a more consistent on Soul



Kamui itself is not consistent. The feats vary depending on the scenario in the manga, as pointed out to you multiple times before in this and many other threads.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> Kamui itself is not consistent. The feats vary depending on the scenario in the manga, as pointed out to you multiple times before in this and many other threads.


I never claimed it was ‘consistent’, so you pointing that out to me is a Straw-Man. I said this measurement is the most ‘consistent’. 

If you want to say Kamui is ‘inconsistent’ I don’t have any issue with that. But then you better not show your face in other threads wanking Kamui one-shots because it could warp ‘X’, when your admitting that it’s ‘inconsistent’


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## Soul (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I never claimed it was ‘consistent’, so you pointing that out to me is a Straw-Man. I said this measurement is the most ‘consistent’.
> 
> If you want to say Kamui is ‘inconsistent’ I don’t have any issue with that. But then you better not show your face in other threads wanking Kamui one-shots because it could warp ‘X’, when your admitting that it’s ‘inconsistent’



Kamui is definitely inconsistent. Who is saying otherwise? I don't recall ever saying lolKamui wins. If you see my analysis on him I didn't even mention Kamui as a big point of emphasis.
Get your statements straight Turrin.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> Kamui is definitely inconsistent. Who is saying otherwise?


Every single person that says Kamui One-Shots citing Susanoo Arrows or insert ‘X’ feat here to justify it blitz ‘Y’ character. I made this thread for that reason; not to say Kamui is necessarily ‘consistently’ this speed.


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## Soul (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Every single person that says Kamui One-Shots citing Susanoo Arrows or insert ‘X’ feat here to justify it blitz ‘Y’ character. I made this thread for that reason; not to say Kamui is necessarily ‘consistently’ this speed.



I do not do that. Not even once.
Stop saying things that aren't true. It's starting to get old.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> I do not do that. Not even once.
> Stop saying things that aren't true. It's starting to get old.


I didn’t ‘say’ you do that. I’ve said you are bias for  other reasons


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## Soul (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *Every single person* that says Kamui One-Shots citing Susanoo Arrows or insert ‘X’ feat here to justify it blitz ‘Y’ character.



Well?
You have also failed to cite an actual example of a biased assessment to a thread.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Soul said:


> Well?
> You have also failed to cite an actual example of a biased assessment to a thread.


I don’t know what your getting at with the bold...

I already cited several from this thread....


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

I don't care about this whole Kakashi thing

but I love how Minato's feat (outspeeding 8th Gates Gai) still make people salty to this day


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## Alucardemi (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> we could equally say Kakashi other Kamui feats that you subjectively place at a higher level of speed are plot’ as well.



Everything is plot. The difference is whether or not it is consistent plot; if it is either point (necessarily indicates cohesion) or contrivance (does not necessarily do that). The feats you showed in part 2 carry a presumption of doubt that needs to be weeded out before it's to be taken seriously at face value. As I've explained, since speed wasn't the focus aspect of those scenes, the probability that the speeds displayed in it are contrivances is there.



Turrin said:


> It also doesn’t change the fact that this is the most supported measurement of Kamui, speed



This is up for debate between you and whomever wants to argue the consistency of deducible speeds in this manga. Bringing up feats which definitely speak of speed will supersede your arguments, is all I'm saying. And up until now, they've brought arguments as consistent as yours are consistent; and as inconsistent as yours are inconsistent. Neither of you are necessarily right or wrong, per se. You cancel one another, and to find out which side is more correct would require you two to hash it out over what's more consistent, which you are doing. However, there is no gulf between your arguments and theirs, ostensibly.



Turrin said:


> is ‘plot’ and not the other individual feats you believe make it faster is inherently bias towards an agenda of Kamui being as ‘fast’ as you subjectively think it should be.



I gave you a precise reasoning as to why one type of speed feat is looked at as more presumably consistent than others; it has to do with literary emphasis. What you don't identify is that your construction is no different than any others in this thread, which you denounce, in that regard. Except for the fact that you're 100% correct on TSBs being faster than Kamui's self-warp.

In that sense, what you're saying here is not something I even necessarily disagree with. However, the reasoning you constructed in part 2 of your opening is no different from the others brought to disprove it in this thread. 



Turrin said:


> Especially when you consider in ‘plot’, as in in the manga, Kakashi has never against an opponent blitz’d their head off with Kamui.



To be perfectly honest, I don't really care whether Kakashi can or cannot do that. Just feel it's wrong to give so much weight to an interception when the manga seems full of likewise seemingly inconsistent interceptions where speed never seems to be an actual factor. It's simply not a reliable metric.



Turrin said:


> So the ‘plot’ definitely does not lend itself well to taking what you believe are Kamui high end “Feats” and transporting them into a combat scenario and then in turn asserting that speed would result in Kakashi using Kamui effectively against ‘higher level’ enemies to quickly defeat them. While this measurement flows much more smoothly ‘within’ the plot as it explains why Kakashi couldn’t easily overcome the foes he faced with Kamui



Maybe so, or maybe not. That's a better case than arguing that Kamui is slow due to a series of interceptions.



Turrin said:


> as Kamui is not faster then many attacks from the Ninja he faced and therefore he need to concentrate on defending their attacks until he could create an opening with a clone or his teammates could create an opening, which also flows well with Kamui becoming more useful when Kakashi has high level allies to help distract his enemy while he uses Kamui. This being the exact strategy that Madara actually assumes Kakashi will use with Obito to successful warp someone with Kamui; even further supports this idea plot wise



I've no opinion on this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hussain, you saying that all this is happening because people disagreed with Turrin by saying Kakashi isn't capped on Zabuza level?


I think this is a big part of it. Kakashi's fanboys can be vicious when it comes to his actual level...  
and there are a lot of them in the NBD... 


But is it the only reason? I dunno...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I think this is a big part of it. Kakashi's fanboys can be vicious when it comes to his actual level...
> and there are a lot of them in the NBD...
> 
> 
> But is it the only reason? I dunno...



It must've taken something to make Turrin super agro... then again, he gets upset when you point out that Jiraiya's SM is inferior to Naruto's.


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It must've taken something to make Turrin super agro... then again, he gets upset when you point out that Jiraiya's SM is inferior to Naruto's.


probably something that had to do with Tobirama


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> probably something that had to do with Tobirama



Maybe he couldn't hack the contrarian style and now he's flipping.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Alucardemi said:


> Everything is plot. The difference is whether or not it is consistent plot; if it is either point (necessarily indicates cohesion) or contrivance (does not necessarily do that). The feats you showed in part 2 carry a presumption of doubt that needs to be weeded out before it's to be taken seriously at face value. As I've explained, since speed wasn't the focus aspect of those scenes, the probability that the speeds displayed in it are contrivances is there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Problem is they have brought up arguments as ‘consistent’ as this measurement, unless you can show how; there is no need to engage any of these points


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Why did he use a spiral Kamui to try and warp Obito twice when the fate of the world was on the line of its ‘much’ slower then the one with the barrier?
> 
> 2. Why did Kakashi use the spiral one to warp away the Rasengan, if the Barrier one is faster (Yes it was the Spiral one, you can see it clear as day).
> 
> 3. Why would an extra step of creating a barrier make Kamui faster?



1-That's irrelevant and I never said it's necessarily slower. It's a just a rule  that Obito transfering *himself t*o kamui land takes longer, so explain to me why that's any different with left eye Kamui that's still his eye and which have been shown to be linked when they are near each other?

2- Clear as day? what am I looking at, rasengan's artistic spirals?




3-Were is it stated that Kakashi's spiral Kamui has no barrier and that the barrier makes it slower? 



> Until you can answer these questions in an adequate way, your premise isn’t even worth taking seriously



Until you can explain how Kunais are faster than JJ projectiles that Blitzed Gaara, Susanoo arrows, Shinra Tensei nails and many more, then this whole thread and your recent posting history isn’t even worth taking seriously.

Good thing my job has lots of downtime and I literally get paid to wait/fool around, thanks for the lols


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## Alucardemi (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Problem is they have brought up arguments as ‘consistent’ as this measurement, unless you can show how; there is no need to engage any of these points



You've shown an instance of an interception feat to argue that Kamui is slower than it's believed to be and thus easily countered by any competent ninja's thrown projectile. Correct me if I'm wrong. Okay, I get that. People have then pointed to several other interception feats that directly contradict this; for example, Kakashi warping the kunai Obito kicks at Naruto before it can reach him. How do you account for that? You say that your measurement is the most accurate, but from where I'm standing, how do you account for the fact that not only are there interceptions which contradict your point, but there are an innumerable amount of interceptions -- where speed isn't even mentioned -- that are, by themselves, contradictory with clearly stated speed plot-points in the manga?

The best example I remember of Kamui's speed is deflecting Susanoo's arrow; as that's specifically noted by Kishi to be ridiculously fast, which he used to hype up Sage Kabuto. Since speed is an actual noted factor in that scene, I'd give it more weight than any interception where speed is not explicitly emphasized.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ZmkSc (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> When did Kakashi say he couldn’t react to Susanoo arrows; he clearly could has he used Kamui; what he couldn’t do is dodge them outright (they were bigger then a Kunai and harder to dodge); and couldn’t block them with anything other then Kamui defensively speaking.
> 
> I also think you seem to be under the impression that I don’t think High Tier characters like Kisame and Rinnegan Jins could avoid TSB, which is false; I believe they can as you clearly see Kakashi react to TSB and toss Kunai at it. Could they keep doing it consistently when TSB can move in any direction and change its shape; no way
> 
> Now do I think the Jonin could from Gaiden, probably not at the same distance.


Susano arrows's size comes from its length. its sickness is less than human .
*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*

if kisame or edo jin yugito could evade kunai toss from point blank range even with divided attention by lowering their upper body then kakashi or danzu with full attention should have easily evaded the arrows fired from much larger distance by taking one step to the side or by kneeling down.

how on earth kakashi or kisame evade projectiles that is fast enough to counter attack Gai's top speed? your whole argument of this kunai shit is based on interception feats that has consistently proven to be not a showing of speed superiority or equality.


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2019)

Alucardemi said:


> You've shown an instance of an interception feat to argue that Kamui is slower than it's believed to be and thus easily countered by any competent ninja's thrown projectile. Correct me if I'm wrong. Okay, I get that. People have then pointed to several other interception feats that directly contradict this; for example, Kakashi warping the kunai Obito kicks at Naruto before it can reach him. How do you account for that? You say that your measurement is the most accurate, but from where I'm standing, how do you account for the fact that not only are there interceptions which contradict your point, but there are an innumerable amount of interceptions -- where speed isn't even mentioned -- that are, by themselves, contradictory with clearly stated speed plot-points in the manga?
> 
> The best example I remember of Kamui's speed is deflecting Susanoo's arrow; as that's specifically noted by Kishi to be ridiculously fast, which he used to hype up Sage Kabuto. Since speed is an actual noted factor in that scene, I'd give it more weight than any interception where speed is not explicitly emphasized.



Yeah you are wrong, as the OP does not offer just an interception feat, but other cited instances, character statements, and character interactions. So until you understand that there is no point taking the conversation further; please re-read the OP


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> Susano arrows's size comes from its length. its sickness is less than human .
> *Link Removed*
> *Link Removed*
> 
> ...


1. Is Susanoo arrow bigger than a Kunai; Yes or no?

2. If we replace the pencil and Kunai, in the scenes you citing with 2 arrows; Fu and Kisame lowering their heads would have still been hit

3. You seem to think Danzo has high speeds, when he doesn’t; Danzo is an old man way past his prime; he is likely one of the slowest ‘high Tiers’ in the verse. In-fact Sasuke blitz Danzo with his physical speed without issue. So I fail to see why you believe Danzo speed w/o Sharingan (Shisui eye was on cool down and covered) matches Kisame whose bread and butter is CQC; or a Jinchuuriki with Sharingan and Shared Vision?

4 . As I said Gai ether slowed down or his speed being so low in that instance is the ‘outlier’ not the TSB matching a Kunai which has tons of evidence supporting it


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> 1-That's irrelevant and I never said it's necessarily slower. It's a just a rule  that Obito transfering *himself t*o kamui land takes longer, so explain to me why that's any different with left eye Kamui that's still his eye and which have been shown to be linked when they are near each other?
> 
> 2- Clear as day? what am I looking at, rasengan's artistic spirals?
> 
> ...



1. I wasn’t talking about Obito, I asked you why Kakashi used ‘Spiral’ Kamui, if ‘Barrier’ Kamui is faster to try to warp Obito

2. Rasengan also being a spiral doesn’t change the fact that Kakashi used ‘Spiral’ Kamui to warp it away; we know this due to there being no barrier present 

3. We literally don’t see a barrier when Kakashi uses ‘Spiral’ Kamui; and I didn’t say the barrier makes it slower (though natural inference that another step, forming a barrier makes something slower adds up), I said no matter what ‘Spiral’ Kamui is faster then Kakashi previously Kamui, as otherwise he would have simply used his other Kamui to warp Obito


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## ZmkSc (Oct 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Is Susanoo arrow bigger than a Kunai; Yes or no?


The AOE of Susano arrow is bigger than Bee's lightening knife but *not very bigger* as scans show Susano arrows being very thin in comparison to its length. While the distance between susano and Kakashi/Danzu was *so much larger* than the distance between Bee and Yugito. Wasn't you the one crying about distance just a post ago? 
*And again* Danzu and Kakashi was *paying full attention *to Sasuke's Susano prior to firing the arrows while Kisame was in *mid thrusting towards Bee's rap teacher* when bee threw his lightening pencil and Kisame only noticed the pencil when it was just *few inches* away from his skull yet he still could lower his head and evade.
Anyone who has the least amount of comprehension and honesty should know by now that these arrows are far faster than kunai toss. Not even comparable. By feats and portrayal.


> 2. If we replace the pencil and Kunai, in the scenes you citing with 2 arrows; Fu and Kisame lowering their heads would have still been hit


If it aims their head then yeah lowering their head like this would do the job if they could. If it aims their stomach then taking a single step to the side or kneeling down would evade it which they should be easily able to do , if arrows are slower than kunai toss, considering it being fired from much larger distance and they  pay full attention now. 



> 3.You seem to think Danzo has high speeds, when he doesn’t; Danzo is an old man way past his prime; he is likely one of the slowest ‘high Tiers’ in the verse. In-fact Sasuke blitz Danzo with his physical speed without issue. So I fail to see why you believe Danzo speed w/o Sharingan (Shisui eye was on cool down and covered) matches Kisame whose bread and butter is CQC; or a Jinchuuriki with Sharingan and Shared Vision?


You know what you are comparing. Kisame evaded lightening pencil from like 3 inches away. Shared vision only made up for the fact that the knife was aimed at her from blind side. She wasn't looking so Sharingan hadn't anything to do with this feat. Only Rinnegan. Also last time i checked Kakashi had some weirdo red eye there too.
Yeah Danzu is an old man that has almost one third of his body made of Hashirama cells. Who can fuckin' use 11 Sharingan eye *simultaneously*. Who can kick like that 
*Link Removed* 
*Link Removed* 

Who can tag MS sasuke in CQC like that 
*Link Removed* 

Who can clash with MS sasuke in CQC and pierce each other like that 

*Link Removed* 


Yeah keep coming up with excuses because you are too kiddo to admit that you are wrong. 


> 4 . As I said Gai ether slowed down or his speed being so low in that instance is the ‘outlier’ not the TSB matching a Kunai which has tons of evidence supporting it


There was no panel of him slowing down.  Gai can't fly. He moves in the air by kicking the air so you would need a panel of him pressing his feet against the air to try to slow himself down otherwise no he didn't slow fuckin' down just exactly like minato told him not to do. And no it isn't outlier. On contrary Interception feats are what consistently shown to not be a display of speed superiority or even equality. Suigetsu interrupted Ay's blitz for god sake.THE FASTEST MAN ALIVE was interrupted by Suigetsu ,does this make Suigetsu faster than Ay ?  Is this your next troll? Young Bee interrupted Minato's FTG slash using Hachibi tail from a few meters away yet Ay, who has noticed Minato, Could do nothing about it.  Kakashi interrupted Obito from  touching KCM Naruto by a Kunai toss before obito can move an inch further. Is obito's movements speed much slower than kunai? Wouldn't he be able to evade a kunai?   The examples continue. It is almost like a rule. 

You do realise that the initial velocity of kunai toss is just about equal to the movement speed of the one throwing it? You realise obito was able to teleport faster than kcm naruto's striking speed
*Link Removed* 
And there are many examples of kamui being executed faster than KCM/BM naruto's striking speed by both kakashi and gai ?


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> The AOE of Susano arrow is bigger than Bee's lightening knife but *not very bigger* as scans show Susano arrows being very thin in comparison to its length. While the distance between susano and Kakashi/Danzu was *so much larger* than the distance between Bee and Yugito. Wasn't you the one crying about distance just a post ago?
> *And again* Danzu and Kakashi was *paying full attention *to Sasuke's Susano prior to firing the arrows while Kisame was in *mid thrusting towards Bee's rap teacher* when bee threw his lightening pencil and Kisame only noticed the pencil when it was just *few inches* away from his skull yet he still could lower his head and evade.
> Anyone who has the least amount of comprehension and honesty should know by now that these arrows are far faster than kunai toss. Not even comparable. By feats and portrayal.
> 
> ...



1. So you admit an individual arrow is bigger then a Kunai; and obviously 2 would then be bigger; so clearly two arrows are harder to dodge then a single Kunai. The rest of those points are about circumstance which I didn’t ask you about, just wanted to establish that your not denying that an Arrow is bigger

2. So basically in those circumstances they couldn’t have evaded how they did... okay so now we already know your examples are irrelevant.

3. Again you seem to ignore that Danzo got cut in half by MS-Sasuke in CQC. And I’m not saying Danzo is ‘slow’ I’m saying he’s ‘slow’ in comparison to the average ‘high tier’. Darui was able to cast a Jutsu and repel Sasuke attacks without getting blitz’d. Also we see Danzo crushed again and again by V2 Susanoo; the other Kages face V3 Susanoo x5 without being easily crushed.

4. As I said Gai being that ‘slow’ is the outlier then; not something that is consistently shown as the same speed as TSB. I don’t care to argue this point of whether or not Gai slowed down as it’s not necessary; if you don’t believe he slowed down then that is the outlier

5. Wait what are you talking about I can throw an object far faster across a distance then I can run across the same distance; pretty basic


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I wasn’t talking about Obito, I asked you why Kakashi used ‘Spiral’ Kamui, if ‘Barrier’ Kamui is faster to try to warp Obito



Obito can only warp in and out of Kamui land using spiral Kamui, this has been shown to us many times lol



> 2. Rasengan also being a spiral doesn’t change the fact that Kakashi used ‘Spiral’ Kamui to warp it away; we know this due to there being no barrier present



Incorrect. Kishi just chose to depict it that way just like in this instance.





> 3. We literally don’t see a barrier when Kakashi uses ‘Spiral’ Kamui; and I didn’t say the barrier makes it slower (though natural inference that another step, forming a barrier makes something slower adds up), I said no matter what ‘Spiral’ Kamui is faster then Kakashi previously Kamui, as otherwise he would have simply used his other Kamui to warp Obito



Its obvious, because Obito and Kakashi synchronized their MS (which have been shown to be connected) to act as if it was a single entity, which is literally feed down our throat by Madara with his whole speech about having both eyes to bring out the true power of ms.

Otherwise Obito would have been bisected by the 2 different ST forces acting on his body. 

However let's pretend that this thread's ridiculous premise was true, that simply makes Kunai's faster than almost all Shinobi can react to and anyone at or below BSM Naruto would still get soloed by Kamui GG's speed as this panel shows

Keep in mind this Obito is not even enhanced by RS chakra which you implied to make a difference



> *Link Removed*


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Obito can only warp in and out of Kamui land using spiral Kamui, this has been shown to us many times lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I repeat,  I *wasn’t talking about Obito,* I asked you why *Kakashi used ‘Spiral’ Kamu*i, if ‘Barrier’ Kamui is faster to try to warp Obito

2. That actually doesn’t look the same at all, but lets see why did he use Spiral Kamui right before that against Obito then:

3. So why would Kakashi bother to synchronize his MS with Obitos, when he could have warped Obito to box land faster through using the ‘Barrier’ Kamui


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi uses ‘Spiral’ Kamui



Evidently you forgot that whenever the "Spiral" Kamui is used we see the spiral pattern... *from the MS eye directly. *Unless Kakashi has a Kamui eye on his chest that we didn't know about.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. I repeat,  I *wasn’t talking about Obito,* I asked you why *Kakashi used ‘Spiral’ Kamu*i, if ‘Barrier’ Kamui is faster to try to warp Obito



 I gonna repeat it again



> It's a just a rule that Obito transfering *himself t*o kamui land takes longer, so explain to me why that's any different with left eye Kamui that's still his eye and which have been shown to be linked when they are near each other?



In other words, Obito's transfer speed whether it's used on himself or Kakashi uses it, should be slower given that it's his eyes in the first place and they have been shown to be linked when nearby.

That's the whole point of that scene, bringing out the full power of the eyes through the simulation of having dual MS by timing and synchronizing their Kamui's.



> 2. That actually doesn’t look the same at all, but lets see why did he use Spiral Kamui right before that against Obito then:



The only thing we know is that Spiral Kamui is the only thing that works to warp a Kamui user in and out of boxland, and Kakashi's left eye has only ever used it on static or slow moving targets.

Barrier Kamui has always been used on speeding targets and it makes sense, the barrier space is described as having a pulling effect which targets can't escape from.



It's likely the same reason why it worked on the Gedo which summoning's ST didn't even save it's arm and why far faster than Kunai's projectiles targeted by Kamui have still been warped without an issue.



> 3. So why would Kakashi bother to synchronize his MS with Obitos, when he could have warped Obito to box land faster through using the ‘Barrier’ Kamui



Already addressed that above.

We could theorize about the why all day long, @Munboy Dracule O'Brian  has a great theory,  but what we know for sure is that Kishi has been very consistent about Barrier Kamui being the left eye's preferred and most successful method vs fast moving targets.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 2. That actually doesn’t look the same at all, but lets see why did he use Spiral Kamui right before that against Obito then:



Why do you think this is a separate Kamui altogether? 




Crimson Flam3s said:


> The only thing we know is that Spiral Kamui is the only thing that works to warp a Kamui user in and out of boxland, and Kakashi's left eye has only ever used it on static or slow moving targets.
> 
> Barrier Kamui has always been used on speeding targets and it makes sense, the barrier space is described as having a pulling effect which targets can't escape from.
> 
> ...



It is literally the same jutsu, Turrin is making up some spiral Kamui nonsense. Not even databook 4 said that there was a spiral Kamui!

Though, we should exercise caution with such entries. Logically there _are _jutsu which can counter this. For example, Shinra Tensei can literally repel the jutsu, hence Kakashi didn't try to warp Deva. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this barrier requires chakra, which can logically be absorbed by a power like Preta which will reverse the Yin/Yang chakra flow. A fast oral rebirth like Kabuto used a lot could so the job-- basically there are counters. Though, the common thread with these named counters and other counters is that these are all top tier jutsu. I know it warped Gedodama, but those Gedodama weren't programmed to nullify Kamui; the manga and DB say the user can determine what effects it has e.g. it can become a black Jinton or a safe platform to stand on. 

Actually, I do wonder... if the barrier is chakra (it certainly isn't going to be pure NE), what would happen if it clashed with Kaiten?

That all said, if I were an Uchiha, I'd defo get 50% Hashi-cells so I could get Kamui.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 18, 2019)

I don't understand Turrin at all.

On one hand, it is completely unreasonable to assume Kamui is fast even though we have consistently seen Kakashi execute the jutsu extremely quickly, even before he got his Rikudou amp.

Yet, on the other hand, Turrin is completely happy to say Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode *is just as strong *as Naruto's perfect Sage Mode and that Jiraiya can replicate SM Naruto's feats despite us getting a whole training segment with comments that Naruto is better at using Senjutsu than Jiraiya ever was.

With this in mind, Turrin believes he's the objective one and Kakashi fans are the unreasonable biased ones.


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## Trojan (Oct 18, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> With this in mind, Turrin believes he's the objective one and Kakashi fans are the unreasonable biased ones.


you are all unreasonable and bias whenever it fits your agenda if that makes you feel any better.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 18, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you are all unreasonable and bias whenever it fits your agenda if that makes you feel any better.



He is ignoring established facts on one hand and going with fabricated facts on the other.


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## Trojan (Oct 18, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He is ignoring established facts on one hand and going with fabricated facts on the other.


you still deny that Sasuke's other eye has Enton as its ability, and go with your fanfiction that Sasuke has Tsokyomi...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 18, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you still deny that Sasuke's other eye has Enton as its ability, and go with your fanfiction that Sasuke has Tsokyomi...



I proved that multiple times. On the other hand, you still believe Naruto didn't surpass base Minato in the Pain Arc despite it being clear as day. You still seem to think Naruto needs SPSM to surpass base Minato. 

Why, I dunno.


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## Trojan (Oct 18, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I proved that multiple times.


thank you for proving my point. 

Now, you can go back and fight Turrin. He deserves that for
all the trash he said about Minato.. 

I will support you from the side lines...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 18, 2019)

Hussain said:


> thank you for proving my point.
> 
> Now, you can go back and fight Turrin. He deserves that for
> all the trash he said about Minato..
> ...



What did I prove, what unlike Turrin I don't ignore evidence? 

I'll take your support anyway.


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## narut0ninjafan (Oct 18, 2019)

OP soloing salty Kakashi fans for 10 pages, truly a sight to behold


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 19, 2019)

narut0ninjafan said:


> OP soloing salty Kakashi fans for 10 pages, truly a sight to behold



You think he's actually soloing.


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## ZmkSc (Oct 19, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. So you admit an individual arrow is bigger then a Kunai; and obviously 2 would then be bigger


the mechanism of evading kunai and arrows are the same if they aim the same part of the body. if arrows or kunai aim the head then lowering oneself's head or upper body down would evade both. if arrow or  kunai aims the stomach then taking a single step to the side or kneeling down would evade both. by somehow you think if Bee aimed his lightening knifes at Yugito's back instead of her head, she couldn't have been able to evade which wasn't implied.




> so clearly two arrows are harder to dodge then a single Kunai.


danzu was tagged by single arrow multiple times. sasuke was left open mouthed when kabuto evaded a single arrow.  your two arrow argument is irrelevant .



> The rest of those points are about circumstance which I didn’t ask you about, just wanted to establish that your not denying that an Arrow is bigger



-> brings him a scan of a fodder evading minato's kunai toss by kneeling completely down
-> *Cries about distance *
-> ignores that this iwa ninja wasn't even focusing on minato at this instance so he only noticed the kunai when it was too close
-> brings him a scan of kisame evading a lightening pencil from 3 inches away by lowering his head down
-> brings him a scan of Yugito evading Bee's knife toss from point blank range by lowering her upper body
-> cries about susano's Aoe of being bigger
->tells him that the distance between arrows and danzu was much largee
->tells him danzu  was paying full attention
-> *says they are Circumstances that he doesn't care about *

Concession accepted.



> 2. So basically in those circumstances they couldn’t have evaded how they did... okay so now we already know your examples are irrelevant.


prove that taking a single step to the side is harder than lowering oneself's upper body down. try it yourself and you would know that this isn't true.



> 3. Again you seem to ignore that Danzo got cut in half by MS-Sasuke in CQC. And I’m not saying Danzo is ‘slow’ I’m saying he’s ‘slow’ in comparison to the average ‘high tier’. Darui was able to cast a Jutsu and repel Sasuke attacks without getting blitz’d.


spare us the laughs. danzu wasn't blitzed by MS sasuke. he actually tags sasuke at the same time sasuke sword swings through his body. their speed was identical at this scene. And  when they clashed again at the end and pierced each other, their speed was equal again.



> Also we see Danzo crushed again and again by V2 Susanoo; the other Kages face V3 Susanoo x5 without being easily crushed.


show me scans of kage consistently evading susano's attacks in CQC using their physical movements. there aren't even a single scan of this.



> 4. As I said Gai being that ‘slow’ is the outlier then; not something that is consistently shown as the same speed as TSB. I don’t care to argue this point of whether or not Gai slowed down as it’s not necessary; if you don’t believe he slowed down then that is the outlier


Kunai was only shown intercepting TSB. for the thousand time, Interception feat aren't a display of speed superiority. nice job ignoring the examples i brought from manga which proves this. in Actual combat scenario, Garra admits that his sand is too slow to evade madara's attacks referring to TSB. this is how TSB is portrayed when the author actually emphasize its speed while there was no hint of speed when kunai was shown intercepting TSB. gai's speed in this scenario wasn't low. and it isn't outlier. concession accepted again.


> 5. Wait what are you talking about I can throw an object far faster across a distance then I can run across the same distance; pretty basic


[/QUOTE]

where i said running? is that you making more excuses and putting words in my mouth? kamui teleportation was faster than KCM Naruto's *striking speed *on panel. Naruto literally hits the air there missing obito who warped faster than naruto could strike with his arm. striking speed is the initial and maximum velocity of a kunai toss. obito warped gai's nunchucks faster than naruto's *striking speed*.  kakashi warped Naruto's rasengan faster than naruto could *lean forward* with rasengan. obito was warping the stakes out faster than BM naruto could *lean forward* with rasengan. Same warping speed which kakashi's kamui was shown and implied to be at least as fast as.

this is my last reply unless you brought any actual argument otherwise you don't worth my time.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 19, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> the mechanism of evading kunai and arrows are the same if they aim the same part of the body. if arrows or kunai aim the head then lowering oneself's head or upper body down would evade both. if arrow or  kunai aims the stomach then taking a single step to the side or kneeling down would evade both. by somehow you think if Bee aimed his lightening knifes at Yugito's back instead of her head, she couldn't have been able to evade which wasn't implied.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You just made @Turrin quit NF


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

ZmkSc said:


> the mechanism of evading kunai and arrows are the same if they aim the same part of the body. if arrows or kunai aim the head then lowering oneself's head or upper body down would evade both. if arrow or  kunai aims the stomach then taking a single step to the side or kneeling down would evade both. by somehow you think if Bee aimed his lightening knifes at Yugito's back instead of her head, she couldn't have been able to evade which wasn't implied.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. The mechanics being the same is irrelevant; the fact that you need to cover more distance is the point, as this takes more time, and is therefore more difficult to dodge

2. There isn’t an argument; I’m telling you it’s harder to dodge 2 arrows then one; which is a fact. Are you going to deny this, yes or no?

3. A single step to the side wouldn’t work if 2 Arrows are fired, so I don’t even need to prove that.

4.  This is silly; Sasuke lept across a large distance; giving Danzo a-lot longer then in normal CQC to react and more importantly all Danzo could do was touch him, while in the same time frame Sasuke slashed Danzo across the chest and cut his arm off (attacking him twice):
If someone can deliver 2 attacks in the same time frame a character can only touch them once, it’s pretty obvious they are much faster then that character

5. We don’t need a scan we know they did it; though we also clearly see Gaara block the attacks or multiple Susanoo in CQC and we see Ei do this; and Onoki actually react and defend an attack on Ei with his Ninjutsu. We also saw Gaara and Onoki both react to Magatama at a much closer distance Danzo was at when he couldn’t react to the arrows. If you really want to dispute that this stuff happened.

Other then convenience for your argument I don’t see why it’s hard to accept that Danzo who is actually older then Part 1 Hiruzen, would not have the best physical stats, when we know Hiruzen’s physical abilities were significantly nerfed by age and according to the Stats at least has probably the lowest Physical stats of any ‘Kaye’ and even CQC oriented Jonin. I get that Danzo has Hashirama DNA, but where was it stated that this boosts anything other then Chakra and lowering the cost of Sharingan? Where was it stated to combat old-age

6. Literally have told you multiple times that we were shown Kunai Toss keeping up with TSB speed multiple times not just when Lee intercepts the TSB; and it is also support by the character statements and interactions.

And no Gaara doesn’t say his sand is slower then TSB, he says it can’t avoid Madara attacks with TSB:

Gaara sand avoid TSB would A) require Gaara sand to be faster then TSB, not equal speed; and B) Gaara would need to be able to evade multiple TSB orbs that can all be indepently controlled not just 1, so he’d need to be way faster with his sand. It’s not surprising this isn’t the case.

6. First off that wasn’t Naruto striking speed that was his chakra arm, secondly the Kunai wasn’t thrown it was kicked lazily by Obito, we have no clue what the speed was it was actually traveling at. Also it become prudent to ask here if you think the size the object Kakashi warps effects how quickly he can warp something?

I also don’t approve of brining science into a fictional manga of Ninja; does Kishi even know or care that scientifically speaking a Kunai toss would be equal to the initial striking speed of a character? Cause I doubt it; and just like Ninja can cast magic abilities and summon monsters; them being able to toss Kunai faster then they can strike is not much of a stretch


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 20, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> You just made @Turrin quit NF



Nah, he's back.


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## Mithos (Oct 20, 2019)

To add to the discussion, Turrin's conclusion is also supported by Konan vs. Obito. We saw that Konan's paper projectiles and paper techniques were too fast for Obito to warp away. Yet, Jiraiya evaded them by rolling to the side, and blasted Konan with his Toad Oil Projectile before she could split apart and dodge herself. For many, her fight against Jiraiya is an outlier or a "low end" feat, while her feats against Obito are "high end." But when we take into account Turrin's examples during the war with the kunai tosses and Truth Seeker Orbs, it supports the notion that Kamui in and of itself is not fast enough to one-shot in most circumstances 1 vs. 1, nor is its usage dramatically faster than many projectiles.

This is backed up by Kakashi's portrayal, as even when he had Kamui fast enough to save Team 7 and Team 10 from Deidara's Clay Clone at the last minute, he admits inferiority to Naruto during the Immortals Arc. He is then also portrayed as below Jiraiya's level during the conversation between Kakashi, Tsunade, Sakura, and Fukasaku regarding Jiraiya's death; by his increduilty around Jiraiya facing all six Paths of Pain at once; and by Shikaku's statement that Sage Mode puts Naruto "on another level." This is with a Kamui fast enough to warp a missile or a Susano'o Arrow. At the very least, Kamui is not fast enough to guarantee a victory over Immortals Arc Naruto-level opponents and stronger. 

Whether or not Kamui is slower/faster than Kunai toss, it's clear from feats and portrayal that Kamui isn't meant to be a one-shot, GG technique that ends virtually anyone with zero effort. Most of the feats that are used to support Kamui are largely unquantifiable in speed and were used for dramatic effect. This matters because most characters have dramatic interception feats where they intercepted attacks on themselves or allies at the last possible second, but then they don't go on blitzing or being too fast for their opponent to handle (or being untouchable for that matter). The issue is, rarely does anyone give significant weight to those feats for other characters, but certain fans place extremely heavy emphasis on them for Kakashi, going so far as to ignore the narrative of the story and character statements and reactions to/about Kakashi's Kamui that don't support their interpretation of those isolated panels.

It's also worth mentioning, too, that thrown projectiles in the manga are usually only _just barely_ dodged/reflected. It's not something that anyone can just dodge at any time. In fact, they're usually blocked (with another weapon, or a technique) rather than dodged. And we even have Hiruzen's Shadow Clone: Shuriken being stated to be nearly impossible to dodge despite it not covering an area as large as some ninja arts we've seen, and both times it was used in the manga it was countered by a technique instead of dodged. Another example: we have wrist- and mouth-launched needles from Shizune almost catching Kabuto _twice. _Someone on par with one of the most famous and accomplished Jounin in the world (i.e., Kakashi) was pressured more than once by simple poisoned needles. Generally, characters are more capable of reacting with a technique than they are dodging physically (but not always), and from what we've seen/been told, Kage-level ninja should be able to interrupt Kamui, either by attacking Kakashi directly or blocking line of sight - at least for a good portion of the fight.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 20, 2019)

Matto, Turrin's partner at the Misinterpretation Police squad has joined.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 20, 2019)

Matto said:


> To add to the discussion, Turrin's conclusion is also supported by Konan vs. Obito.



Is it now? 



> We saw that Konan's paper projectiles and paper techniques were too fast for Obito to warp away. Yet, Jiraiya evaded them by rolling to the side, and blasted Konan with his Toad Oil Projectile before she could split apart and dodge herself. For many, her fight against Jiraiya is an outlier or a "low end" feat, while her feats against Obito are "high end." But when we take into account Turrin's examples during the war with the kunai tosses and Truth Seeker Orbs, it supports the notion that Kamui in and of itself is not fast enough to one-shot in most circumstances 1 vs. 1, nor is its usage dramatically faster than many projectiles.



Kamui is not fast enough to warp away TSBs. The kunai example was Turrin thinking everyone can throw a kunai with as much force as a 6 Gated Lee. These are "casual" TSBs without any spatial manipulation applied to them. Apart from that, 1 v 1, Kamui can effectively solo.



> This is backed up by Kakashi's portrayal, as even when he had Kamui fast enough to save Team 7 and Team 10 from Deidara's Clay Clone at the last minute, he admits inferiority to Naruto during the Immortals Arc. He is then also portrayed as below Jiraiya's level during the conversation between Kakashi, Tsunade, Sakura, and Fukasaku regarding Jiraiya's death; by his increduilty around Jiraiya facing all six Paths of Pain at once; and by Shikaku's statement that Sage Mode puts Naruto "on another level." This is with a Kamui fast enough to warp a missile or a Susano'o Arrow. At the very least, Kamui is not fast enough to guarantee a victory over Immortals Arc Naruto-level opponents and stronger.



This was before he mastered his MS from the looks of it as from the Pain arc he can clearly use it a lot quicker. Not that much time passed since the Deidara arc and Immortals Arc. In between, Kakashi was in the hospital bed, so he wasn't training Kamui in bed. 

You're really dishonest when it comes to Jiraiya, aren't you? Looking at this all objectively, this applies to a Kakashi who couldn't warp Susanoo's arrow that quickly for the reason I just outlined. Shikaku said that Naruto is on another level; going by what we know far beyond Jiraiya as his Senjutsu and Senjutsu feats surpassed Jiraiya's. If you're going to dishonestly use portrayal, Kakashi fought the 2 strongest Paths who actually used their powers on Kakashi, unlike Jiraiya; Jiraiya's intel lacked info on Deva and Asura's power. 



> Whether or not Kamui is slower/faster than Kunai toss, it's clear from feats and portrayal that Kamui isn't meant to be a one-shot, GG technique that ends virtually anyone with zero effort. Most of the feats that are used to support Kamui are largely unquantifiable in speed and were used for dramatic effect. This matters because most characters have dramatic interception feats where they intercepted attacks on themselves or allies at the last possible second, but then they don't go on blitzing or being too fast for their opponent to handle (or being untouchable for that matter). The issue is, rarely does anyone give significant weight to those feats for other characters, but certain fans place extremely heavy emphasis on them for Kakashi, going so far as to ignore the narrative of the story and character statements and reactions to/about Kakashi's Kamui that don't support their interpretation of those isolated panels.



With your botched way of looking at portrayal, one could think that. In actuality, since the Pain arc, especially since the War Arc, it is a different story. I'm going to assume you've forgotten about the Sharingan's predictive abilities too which work hand-in-hand with Kamui. 



> It's also worth mentioning, too, that thrown projectiles in the manga are usually only _just barely_ dodged/reflected. It's not something that anyone can just dodge at any time. In fact, they're usually blocked (with another weapon, or a technique) rather than dodged. And we even have Hiruzen's Shadow Clone: Shuriken being stated to be nearly impossible to dodge despite it not covering an area as large as some ninja arts we've seen, and both times it was used in the manga it was countered by a technique instead of dodged. Another example: we have wrist- and mouth-launched needles from Shizune almost catching Kabuto _twice. _Someone on par with one of the most famous and accomplished Jounin in the world (i.e., Kakashi) was pressured more than once by simple poisoned needles. Generally, characters are more capable of reacting with a technique than they are dodging physically (but not always), and from what we've seen/been told, Kage-level ninja should be able to interrupt Kamui, either by attacking Kakashi directly or blocking line of sight - at least for a good portion of the fight.



Reaching hard. The Gedo Mazo couldn't intercept it, hence it lost an arm and much earlier why Obito chose to defend it with his own Kamui. The Juubi is now a Kage level? 'Cause Kakashi was going to warp its head. Kakashi managed to absorb the whole Hachibi in before the Juubidama took out a lot of Kurama's tails. 

You Sannin boys, when you want to distort facts and outright make things up (Turrin's guilty too with making up a whole new "spiral Kamui" from Kakashi's Kamui vs "barrier Kamui") you really go all the way.


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