# Admirals vs Yonko Commanders



## Captain Altintop (Aug 4, 2017)

Location: Marineford
Distance: 1 km
Mindset: Quite serious.
Knowlede: Canon
Version: Current Arc / at least Post TS

Team A: (Admirals):
Akainu , Kizaru , Fujitora

Team C: (Commander)
Marco , Jozu , Katakuri , Cracker

*EDIT Bonus*:
Team C: Marco , Jozu , Katakuri , Cracker and Doflamingo.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Aug 4, 2017)

poor commanders


----------



## zoro (Aug 4, 2017)

Jozu and Cracker hold two admirals while Kata and Marco murk the third one

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


----------



## Dunno (Aug 4, 2017)

Akainu > Marco + Jozu
Kizaru > Katakuri
Fujitora >> Cracker

The Admirals are stronger across the board.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 4, 2017)

I'm reporting this to the mods. Rape in no forms should be allowed on this forum especially since minors lurk this site.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 4, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Jozu and Cracker hold two admirals while Kata and Marco murk the third one


 Cracker probably has a bad matchup here since his opponents have AoE attacks


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Akainu > Marco + Jozu
> Kizaru > Katakuri
> Fujitora >> Cracker
> 
> The Admirals are stronger across the board.


What the fuck is this? Someone should report you for having that opinion.

Marco is > or = Akainu
Jozu > Fujitora
Kizaru > or = Katakuri
Then you have an access of Cracker.

The yonkou commanders wins handily.

Reactions: Optimistic 7


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Cracker probably has a bad matchup here since his opponents have AoE attacks


A single cracker soldier will just repel it.

Reactions: Optimistic 6


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Yonkou commanders with no to low difficulty.

Reactions: Optimistic 6


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Akainu > Marco + Jozu
> Kizaru > Katakuri
> Fujitora >> Cracker
> The Admirals are stronger across the board.



I'm not totally positive if Akainu can beat Marco+Jozu, but setting that aside, this is right.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dunno (Aug 5, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What the fuck is this? Someone should report you for having that opinion.
> 
> Marco is > or = Akainu
> Jozu > Fujitora
> ...



Easy now, I'm quite certain we're not reading the same manga, so your opinions are cool.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Winner 2


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Jozu and Cracker hold two admirals while Kata and Marco murk the third one


Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. If serious,there is no way jozu and cracker are holding two admirals for that long to let marco/katakuri "murk" the third one. And since most probably akainu would be the third one , I am pretty sure that akainu could even come out on top extreme difficulty.
The admirals wreck the commanders.Add another first mate of the remaining yonkous and we have a battle on.




barreltheif said:


> I'm not totally positive if Akainu can beat Marco+Jozu, but setting that aside, this is right.


Akainu looked annoyed when marco and Vista attacked him with haki,not hurt ,but annoyed. He can even handle katakuri and marco to the point  that he pushes both of them to their maximum limits.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

This is not a rape. although the admirals have won this.



Onewhosbeenaround said:


> I'm reporting this to the mods. Rape in no forms should be allowed on this forum especially since minors lurk this site.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Easy now, I'm quite certain we're not reading the same manga, so your opinions are cool.


Marco was beating Kizaru and was able to repel multiple Akainu attacks.
Jozu was able to standstill Aokiji and Aokiji is most likely > Ishoo
Meanwhile Katakuri and Cracker together can make short work of an admiral.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 2


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> .Add another first mate of the remaining yonkous and we have a battle on.



no need to add this match up is already interesting, If we add another commander the admiral will gonna lose.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. If serious,there is no way jozu and cracker are holding two admirals for that long to let marco/katakuri "murk" the third one. And since most probably akainu would be the third one , I am pretty sure that akainu could even come out on top extreme difficulty.
> The admirals wreck the commanders.Add another first mate of the remaining yonkous and we have a battle on.
> 
> 
> ...


Annoyed? He groaned in pain and gritted his teeth.
The fact is that outside of hax, top tiers aren't getting beat in 10 minutes by anyone but the top yonkou.
It took Akainu 10 days to defeat Aokiji, that doesn't downplay Akainu as weaker than Aokiji does it, then why does it count marco?

Though Akainu is stronger than Vista objectively, that being said, Vista can still hurt him and would be a huge help if he joined in on a fight vs an admiral. 

The commanders win. They arguably can win with just Marco, Jozu, and katakuri, adding Cracker adds a character close to admiral level into the mix and makes it so that whoever he joins will quickly win and then it's just a matter of those 2 teaming up on the next one, and then it become  4 v 1.
None of the admirals have any chance of defeating any of these characters alongside Cracker.
While Jozu, Katakuri, and marco can standstill their respective opponent.
Meanwhile Ishoo is weaker than the pre timeskip admirals probably.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> no need to add this match up is already interesting, If we add another commander the admiral will gonna lose.


You're delusional if you think the admirals beat out Marco, Jozu, and Katakuri with anything less than high extreme difficulty even if they do, adding Cracker means that one admiral is going to be ganked early on and then it becomes 1 v 2 for 2 admirals or 3 vs 1 for one admiral.

marco can match if not beat akainu
Jozu can standstill Kizaru
Katakuri and Cracker will dominate Ishoo

Reactions: Creative 1 | Optimistic 3


----------



## Richard Lionheart (Aug 5, 2017)

This fight is going to last several days.
Akainu>~Katakuri
Fujitora~<Cracker and Jozu
Kizaru~Marco

Add Smoothie and we have a better fight.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 2


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 5, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco was beating Kizaru and was able to repel multiple Akainu attacks.
> Jozu was able to standstill Aokiji and Aokiji is most likely > Ishoo
> Meanwhile Katakuri and Cracker together can make short work of an admiral.



Marco is the guy with the pinapple head who can fly. Kizaru is the tall guy with the lasers. Akainu is the other tall guy with the magma.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Marco is the guy with the pinapple head who can fly. Kizaru is the tall guy with the lasers. Akainu is the other tall guy with the magma.


Marco is the mystical zoan.
You know, higher physicals due to being a zoan but also having a special ability that makes him special.

Marco has shown intangibility, regeneration, flight, top tier stats/fighting skill/speed, etc etc.

He can power through Akainu and Marco while they have more elemental powers though his special phoenix powers adds another layer of superiority for him.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Legendary Pervert said:


> This fight is going to last several days.
> Akainu>~Katakuri
> Fujitora~<Cracker and Jozu
> Kizaru~Marco
> ...


Lol at Fujitora being < or = to Cracker, Fujitora loses to Jozu 1 v 1.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 5, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco is the mystical zoan.
> You know, higher physicals due to being a zoan but also having a special ability that makes him special.
> Marco has shown intangibility, regeneration, flight, top tier stats/fighting skill/speed, etc etc.
> He can power through Akainu and Marco while they have more elemental powers though his special phoenix powers adds another layer of superiority for him.



Marco is the phoenix guy. Yes, you're right, he really is very special. Kizaru is the guy with the lasers.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> no need to add this match up is already interesting, If we add another commander the admiral will gonna lose.


This match is pretty much a stomp in favour of the admirals,with one possible exception of the match up between marco+katakuri vs akainu. Akainu is easily going to hold out in that fight long enough for the other admirals to destroy their opponents and come to his aid(its not like akainu needs any).

Unless you think a 3rd commander is going to hold out against an admiral and even have a possibility of a victory,this is in no way fair to the commanders,when their captain is supposed to take on admiral level threats and not them.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You're delusional if you think the admirals beat out Marco, Jozu, and Katakuri with anything less than high extreme difficulty even if they do, adding Cracker means that one admiral is going to be ganked early on and then it becomes 1 v 2 for 2 admirals or 3 vs 1 for one admiral.
> 
> marco can match if not beat akainu
> Jozu can standstill Kizaru
> Katakuri and Cracker will dominate Ishoo



here's my take on this match up:

Akainu vs Katakuri and Cracker - let say the brothers win only if Kizaru or Fujitora didn't help him. All this match up will take Days. 
Kizaru vs Marco - Kizaru
Fujitora vs Jozu - Fujitora

I think all the match up I made will be extreme diff. and don't call me delusional cause I never call you one which are all your debate more likely that word. and no need to reply too this is my take on the match up, my own personal thought and you also have yours.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> here's my take on this match up:
> 
> Akainu vs Katakuri and Cracker - let say the brothers win only if Kizaru or Fujitora didn't help him. All this match up will take Days.
> Kizaru vs Marco - Kizaru
> ...


Marco was beating Kizaru before Marco had to worry about Whitebeard.
Jozu was able to standstill Aokiji until he had to worry about Marco and Ishoo is weaker than Aokiji probably.

2 top tiers vs an admiral is going to beat that admiral in at best a few hours.
Meanwhile the other two fights will take days with Marco and Jozu winning.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## Richard Lionheart (Aug 5, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Lol at Fujitora being < or = to Cracker, Fujitora loses to Jozu 1 v 1.


Fujitora may lose against the duo. But he is going to give them a very decent fight, since he can slow down their movements and bruise their defenses with meteor attacks.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> This match is pretty much a stomp in favour of the admirals,with one possible exception of the match up between marco+katakuri vs akainu. Akainu is easily going to hold out in that fight long enough for the other admirals to destroy their opponents and come to his aid(its not like akainu needs any).
> 
> Unless you think a 3rd commander is going to hold out against an admiral and even have a possibility of a victory,this is in no way fair to the commanders,when their captain is supposed to take on admiral level threats and not them.



No man, we saw in the MF war that the commander can fight toe to toe with the admirals but they ain't beating them.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> This match is pretty much a stomp in favour of the admirals,with one possible exception of the match up between marco+katakuri vs akainu. Akainu is easily going to hold out in that fight long enough for the other admirals to destroy their opponents and come to his aid(its not like akainu needs any).
> 
> Unless you think a 3rd commander is going to hold out against an admiral and even have a possibility of a victory,this is in no way fair to the commanders,when their captain is supposed to take on admiral level threats and not them.


You are such a shitty poster that it's ridiculous. Marco can handle Akainu alone.
Jozu can beat Ishoo
Katakuri and Cracker will stomp Kizaru together.

2 v 1 ends in probably less than an hour. Meanwhile Marco would probably beat an admiral and Jozu can standstill kizaru or beat jozu and if he loses it'd take days.

Sorry but no one here is Kaidou, Big Mom, and Whitebeard leveled where they can hang with 2 top tiers.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> No man, we saw in the MF war that the commander can fight toe to toe with the admirals but they ain't beating them.


marco was beating kizaru until bullshit about having to worry about whitebeard.
This is a fact.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Legendary Pervert said:


> Fujitora may lose against the duo. But he is going to give them a very decent fight, since he can slow down their movements and bruise their defenses with meteor attacks.


MAY lose against the duo? Anyone in this fight besides Cracker can beat Ishoo 1 v 1.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco was beating Kizaru before Marco had to worry about Whitebeard.
> Jozu was able to standstill Aokiji until he had to worry about Marco and Ishoo is weaker than Aokiji probably.
> 
> 2 top tiers vs an admiral is going to beat that admiral in at best a few hours.
> Meanwhile the other two fights will take days with Marco and Jozu winning.



that was a tricky one, Kizaru vs Marco they have a stalemate man if that fight continues let's say 1v1 Kizaru will come up on top. but most likely become days.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Aug 5, 2017)

4 Commanders are not beating 3 Admirals. You could come up with a combination of 2 Commanders stalemating or barely beating 1 Admiral here, but then you would have 2 Admirals against the remaining 2 Commanders, which the Admirals are winning. Then they help the 3rd Admiral against the other 2 Commanders. 

This fight ends with all 3 Admirals standing, the 3rd Admiral might be in very bad shape tho.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> No man, we saw in the MF war that the commander can fight toe to toe with the admirals but they ain't beating them.


Of course,the commanders are not weak enough to drop like flies in front of the admirals. They will put up a decent fight.But that goes for the top commanders.3rd and 4th commanders are not in their league. If you go by that logic,law stood toe to toe with both doffy and Fuji(for a very very brief period). It doesn't mean he is anywhere near their combined strength,let alone individually(as proved when doffy almost casually took him out).We were shown 0 panels of jozu squaring off with aokiji one on one.Except for 1 sneak attack when aokiji was distracted by WB and the other by Aokiji when jozu was distracted by marco.


----------



## Richard Lionheart (Aug 5, 2017)

If Katakuri's trident was made of sea stone he would have a decent chance to beat any admiral to be honest.


----------



## Dunno (Aug 5, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco was beating Kizaru and was able to repel multiple Akainu attacks.
> Jozu was able to standstill Aokiji and Aokiji is most likely > Ishoo
> Meanwhile Katakuri and Cracker together can make short work of an admiral.



Marco was not beating Kizaru. Marco didn't even put a scratch on Kizaru. Jozu was able to "standstill" Aokiji for a couple of minutes up until the point where Aokiji one-shot him. As a comparison, Jozu was only able to make Aokiji's lip bleed when he blind-sided him. Katakuri and Cracker hasn't shown anything on the same level as the admirals. And again, would you say that Zoro is equal to Fujitora because he manage to "standstill" Fujitora on Dressrosa? 

Look, it's like you're not reading the same manga I am. Basically everything you post is the direct opposite of what I believe, which is quite crazy to be honest. I can accept that your opinions are the inverted version of mine, so let's just agree to disagree, ok?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Marco was not beating Kizaru. Marco didn't even put a scratch on Kizaru. Jozu was able to "standstill" Aokiji for a couple of minutes up until the point where Aokiji one-shot him. As a comparison, Jozu was only able to make Aokiji's lip bleed when he blind-sided him. Katakuri and Cracker hasn't shown anything on the same level as the admirals. And again, would you say that Zoro is equal to Fujitora because he manage to "standstill" Fujitora on Dressrosa?
> 
> Look, it's like you're not reading the same manga I am. Basically everything you post is the direct opposite of what I believe, which is quite crazy to be honest. I can accept that your opinions are the inverted version of mine, so let's just agree to disagree, ok?


You are not the only one. He thinks machvise and the likes are m3 level.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Of course,the commanders are not weak enough to drop like flies in front of the admirals. They will put up a decent fight.But that goes for the top commanders.3rd and 4th commanders are not in their league. If you go by that logic,law stood toe to toe with both doffy and Fuji(for a very very brief period). It doesn't mean he is anywhere near their combined strength,let alone individually(as proved when doffy almost casually took him out).We were shown 0 panels of jozu squaring off with aokiji one on one.Except for 1 sneak attack when aokiji was distracted by WB and the other by Aokiji when jozu was distracted by marco.



I'm talking to the commander that on the OP list which means. yes, they can toe to toe with the admirals. Just as stated before the Admirals are gonna win this and on your earlier reply to me you said* Stomp *and that's not gonna happen.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

Legendary Pervert said:


> If Katakuri's trident was made of sea stone he would have a decent chance to beat any admiral to be honest.



Yes, as we saw what happened to Marco. bring your own cups of seastone and you beat any DF user.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> I'm talking to the commander that on the OP list which means. yes, they can toe to toe with the admirals. Just as stated before the Admirals are gonna win this and on your earlier reply to me you said* Stomp *and that's not gonna happen.


Considering 2 admirals win this pretty quickly(in relation to the third fight of akainu vs kata+marco) and the third holds out long enough for the 2 other admirals to come and help him out and together they wreck,yes this is a wreck. There is no matchup where the commanders are winning.

The absolute worst (and the best for yonkou) is kata+ marco going against fuji(the weakest). In this case,akainu literally kills cracker a la Ace and proceeds to help out fuji. The best case is marco+kata handling akainu and you get the longest match for the crewmembers. So I said that adding a 4th commander is going to be better.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2017)

@12zoro :
You're giving the commander a disadvantage man. Marco is enough to hold Akainu for too long cause you know his regeneration ability. and do you really think Cracker will die like Ace? just like that? you forgot that he can fight a G4 luffy. If you see my 1st post I'm voting to the admirals it just not that easy as you think it is.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Marco was not beating Kizaru. Marco didn't even put a scratch on Kizaru. Jozu was able to "standstill" Aokiji for a couple of minutes up until the point where Aokiji one-shot him. As a comparison, Jozu was only able to make Aokiji's lip bleed when he blind-sided him. Katakuri and Cracker hasn't shown anything on the same level as the admirals. And again, would you say that Zoro is equal to Fujitora because he manage to "standstill" Fujitora on Dressrosa?
> 
> Look, it's like you're not reading the same manga I am. Basically everything you post is the direct opposite of what I believe, which is quite crazy to be honest. I can accept that your opinions are the inverted version of mine, so let's just agree to disagree, ok?


And it took 10 days for Akainu to beat Aokiji, what's your point? Marco had the edge, he's not going to one hit Kizaru though by any stretch. 

Aokiji beat Jozu by hax, that is all. Jozu doesn't have hax, Jozu is just a diamond man, while Jozu's arm was frozen into. It's kind of like saying Akainu is stronger than Whitebeard cuz he took off half his head after Whitebeard was nerfed beyond all hell. 

Zoro didn't standstill Fujitora, they held their swords against each other for 2 seconds and Ishoo isn't even that much of a swordsman in all reality. 

Cracker and Katakuri have shown plenty, Cracker is weaker than an admiral and Katakuri is around admiral leveled. That being said, Cracker while teamed up with any of the admiralish leveled fighters would turn the fight into a low diff.

Looks like you're not reading one piece.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Geralt-Singh (Aug 5, 2017)

Admirals win via feats, hype, portrayal.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2017)

None of the Yonkou commanders have shown requisite lethality to make any advantage in numbers count here whereas we've seen an Admiral hold off multiple commanders. As such the Admirals should handily take this. 

The Marco & Vista vs Akainu and Akainu (plus a bunch of fodder marines because they matter so much right at this level Sera) vs the WB commanders portrayals really did a number in demonstrating how out of their league these guys are.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 5, 2017)

The commanders are out gunned here considerably. -snip- spoiler Well Fujitora basically has a similar feat at the end of dressrosa except he actually pulverized said hill. Regardless Crackers clones are a threat to m3 lv fighters, but for top tiers like the admirals they basically are glorified pascifista's and will get taken out in a similar way the m3 took out the pascifista's at the beginning of the time skip. Jozu will get overwhelmed as he shown to be lacking the fire power to contend with an admiral for more than a couple of minutes. Katakuri lacks in feats and with what he's shown so far he gets overwhelmed like Jozu plus him not being a logia ain't doing him any favors. Marcos is the only one so far who could be real annoying however the man had 3 opportunities to land damage on against the c3 and each time he failed so his offensive presence is severely lacking.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> @12zoro :
> You're giving the commander a disadvantage man. Marco is enough to hold Akainu for too long cause you know his regeneration ability. and do you really think Cracker will die like Ace? just like that? you forgot that he can fight a G4 luffy. If you see my 1st post I'm voting to the admirals it just not that easy as you think it is.



Akainu took hits from an enraged whitebeard and could still continue. Is there really any way you think marco matches that kind of power to hurt akainu?Add to the fact that akainu literally just flinched and looked annoyed when marco and vista hit him with haki(do you think they would hold back on someone who killed their father and Ace?). Do you see how vast the difference is in their attack and durabilities?

Sure,marco can take a lot of hits and still be standing and stall off an admiral.He is in no way beating one. And going by ranks,jozu is weaker than or at most as powerful as marco.Same for katakuri. Cracker is even weaker than all of them. Why and how are they beating someone like the likes of kizaru or akainu?

Kizaru was literally even playing around with whitebeard at one time-breaking the key in luffy's hand while taking on whitebeard. A similar mistake of looking away like this cost jozu his hand and would have probably killed him had he not been taken away by the commanders and defrosted. While aokiji was only left with a bloodied lip after being the victim of a surprise act.

Now,with these feats,do you really think any of them has the feats to actually hurt akainu?Fuji is probably the weakest of the three and he will chomp down on cracker while akain handles the "big guns" of marco and katakuri. Kizaru needs one solid attack to beat jozu by scaling him(kizaru) to aokiji's level.How long do you think till he will get such an window?

Edit-I know you are saying the admirals win. I am showing you the vast difference between the admirals and the first mates.And logically,the commanders below the first mates are weaker then them or maybe equal at max(though this is surely not true for kata-cracker,marco-jozu) .


I will put it this way-an admiral is meant to tango with a yonkou,but he may not beat him(saying necessarily since I believe akainu right now is probably stronger than the weakest yonkou,but since this is my theory,I will wait on it).Similarly, the commanders are meant to tango with the admirals,but they are not meant to beat them. 

Now consider how scared katakuri and smoothie(the 2 best of big moms underlings) are of fighting her(they even let one of their family die at the hands of big moms rage in the current arc). Cracker is supposed to fight and stall someone who is meant to oppose that same force of the yonkou? Is it even remotely possible?

Add these three admirals vs the 4 yonkou first mates and it will be an extremely close fight.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## zoro (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic. If serious,there is no way jozu and cracker are holding two admirals for that long to let marco/katakuri "murk" the third one. And since most probably akainu would be the third one , I am pretty sure that akainu could even come out on top extreme difficulty.
> The admirals wreck the commanders.Add another first mate of the remaining yonkous and we have a battle on.
> 
> .



"That long" means a couple hours at worst. Marco and Katakuri together destroy any admiral



Onewhosbeenaround said:


> The commanders are out gunned here considerably. -snip- spoiler Well Fujitora basically has a similar feat at the end of dressrosa except he actually pulverized said hill. Regardless Crackers clones are a threat to m3 lv fighters, but for top tiers like the admirals they basically are glorified pascifista's and will get taken out in a similar way the m3 took out the pascifista's at the beginning of the time skip. Jozu will get overwhelmed as he shown to be lacking the fire power to contend with an admiral for more than a couple of minutes. Katakuri lacks in feats and with what he's shown so far he gets overwhelmed like Jozu plus him not being a logia ain't doing him any favors. Marcos is the only one so far who could be real annoying however the man had 3 opportunities to land damage on against the c3 and each time he failed so his offensive presence is severely lacking.



The admirals never hurt Marco either. Do they lack in offensive presence?


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> "That long" means a couple hours at worst. Marco and Katakuri together destroy any admiral


You think marco + katakuri will defeat akainu faster than kizaru will defeat cracker? Point to be made,marco's haki infused attack annoyed akainu after he survived an enraged whitebeard thrashing

Edit- And kizaru's light beams literally were putting holes in whitebeard when they were fighting


----------



## zoro (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> You think marco + katakuri will defeat akainu faster than kizaru will defeat cracker? Point to be made,marco's haki infused attack annoyed akainu after he survived an enraged whitebeard thrashing
> 
> Edit- And kizaru's light beams literally were putting holes in whitebeard when they were fighting



Not only faster, a lot faster. If he goes on the deffensive he'll stall for a while but he's more of an offense guy. One attack annoyed him. Fights in this manga can last days, a single attack is not representative of one opponent's ability to injure the other

Yes and regular bullets from fodder marines were putting holes in whitebeard too


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Not only faster, a lot faster. If he goes on the deffensive he'll stall for a while but he's more of an offense guy. One attack annoyed him. Fights in this manga can last days, a single attack is not representative of one opponent's ability to injure the other
> 
> Yes and regular bullets from fodder marines were putting holes in whitebeard too


Yes,one attack i not representative of one opponents ability to injure another. How about multiple attacks? Marco on aokiji when he was about to kill luffy? Marco on kizaru when kizaru went for WB? Marco on akainu? Jozu on aokiji? Looks like kizaru survived the entire battle without a scratch..

When did bullets put holes in whitebeard? He was told to have been hit by 500 plus bullets. I do not see anywhere they pierced like through and through. Also, are you saying cracker is getting up form those attacks then?


----------



## zoro (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Yes,one attack i not representative of one opponents ability to injure another. How about multiple attacks? Marco on aokiji when he was about to kill luffy? Marco on kizaru when kizaru went for WB? Marco on akainu? Jozu on aokiji? Looks like kizaru survived the entire battle without a scratch..
> 
> When did bullets put holes in whitebeard? He was told to have been hit by 500 plus bullets. I do not see anywhere they pierced like through and through. Also, are you saying cracker is getting up form those attacks then?



Jozu made Aokiji bleed, Marco is stronger than Jozu


Through and through or not doesn't matter. Strong guys can get injured by mere bullets if the WSM was. Yes Kizaru pierced him, but that's not such a big deal. And yes Cracker is getting up from those. He's not even falling tbh, the fucking supernovae on Sabaody survived the same attacks


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Jozu made Aokiji bleed, Marco is stronger than Jozu
> 
> 
> Through and through or not doesn't matter. Strong guys can get injured by mere bullets if the WSM was. Yes Kizaru pierced him, but that's not such a big deal. And yes Cracker is getting up from those. He's not even falling tbh, the fucking supernovae on Sabaody survived the same attacks


One surprise attack when an admiral was distracted made an admiral bleed. Conversely,one surprise attack by an admiral when a commander was distracted left the commander with one hand less and on deathbed if not for the doctors.

You do know that it is plot right? It really wouldn't be much of a manga if kizaru jumps up and shoots those beams through your head,like he is going to do in the vs threads that we put up?


----------



## zoro (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> One surprise attack when an admiral was distracted made an admiral bleed. Conversely,one surprise attack by an admiral when a commander was distracted left the commander with one hand less and on deathbed if not for the doctors.
> 
> You do know that it is plot right? It really wouldn't be much of a manga if kizaru jumps up and shoots those beams through your head,like he is going to do in the vs threads that we put up?



But there will be no surprise attack here because there are more commanders than admirals so this doesn't matter, what does matter is that the commanders can hurt them and two of the strongest ones ganking an admiral means the admiral dies an horrible death. It's basically two pre-skip Sanjis vs pre-skip Luffy. aka a massacre

Then Kizaru is the strongest character in the manga since he can just one-shot anyone via lazer to the head


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> But there will be no surprise attack here because there are more commanders than admirals so this doesn't matter, what does matter is that the commanders can hurt them and two of the strongest ones ganking an admiral means the admiral dies an horrible death. It's basically two pre-skip Sanjis vs pre-skip Luffy. aka a massacre
> 
> Then Kizaru is the strongest character in the manga since he can just one-shot anyone via lazer to the head


No,that is the whole point. Show me one panel throughout the entire manga where an admiral was seriously injured via a commander attack. All the attacks we were shown are commanders attacking admirals and not doing jack to them(even ace included). But an admiral needs one good hit because of their hax fruit abilities(fuji's is not that hax compared to the original 3).Eg jozu vs aokiji,Akainu vs WB,Akainu vs Ace

That is where durability (and to a certain extend logia intang) comes in. If the admirals can hurt whitebeard to the extent akainu did-by blowing half his face off,it means that akainu is that powerful.Marco is the only one in the given commanders who can regenerate from that level of attacks.Hence,he can stall till he can no longer regen. MAYBE katakuri can avoid those levels of serious injuries with his intang and trying to avoid it.That is why these two will be needed to hold off akainu. Even when doing so,they are not hurting akainu that much to warrant them killing him faster. Other are going to die because of those level of attacks.

Kizaru in the meanwhile has no real competition from cracker. He literally can oneshot-when even G4 luffy could one shot cracker after a period of time.And kizaru>>G4

EDIT- And kizaru literally is one of the strongest. Those with the reactions to dodge and attack comparable to admirals are going to be the ones who can take down kizaru.The only reason he is held back is because of plot and his character of joking around


----------



## zoro (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> No,that is the whole point. Show me one panel throughout the entire manga where an admiral was seriously injured via a commander attack. All the attacks we were shown are commanders attacking admirals and not doing jack to them(even ace included). But an admiral needs one good hit because of their hax fruit abilities(fuji's is not that hax compared to the original 3).
> 
> That is where durability (and to a certain extend logia intang) comes in. If the admirals can hurt whitebeard to the extent akainu did-by blowing half his face off,it means that akainu is that powerful.Marco is the only one in the given commanders who can regenerate from that level of attacks.Hence,he can stall till he can no longer regen. MAYBE katakuri can avoid those levels of serious injuries with his intang and trying to avoid it.That is why these two will be needed to hold off akainu. Even when doing so,they are not hurting akainu that much to warrant them killing him faster. Other are going to die because of those level of attacks.
> 
> Kizaru in the meanwhile has no real competition from cracker. He literally can oneshot-when even G4 luffy could one shot cracker after a period of time.And kizaru>>G4



Yeah but they need to land the good hit first and in a one on one that won't be as easy as you make it out to be. Meanwhile the third admiral will constantly be pressured by two guys not much weaker than him. Again Luffy vs two Sanjis in terms of relative levels. And let's not pretend the Commanders went all out during Marineford, Marco didn't use a single named attack and we never saw his full hybrid form

They are hurting Akainu, and they are hurting him badly

Luffy could one-shot Cracker after a twelve hour fight with literally thousands of meatshields and an ally that completely negated his main form of offense and defense. In a straight match he'd have killed Luffy. Now I don't think G4 is close to admiral level but I doubt they'd be able to stomp him either, and Cracker is above that


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Yeah but they need to land the good hit first and in a one on one that won't be as easy as you make it out to be. Meanwhile the third admiral will constantly be pressured by two guys not much weaker than him. Again Luffy vs two Sanjis in terms of relative levels. And let's not pretend the Commanders went all out during Marineford, Marco didn't use a single named attack and we never saw his full hybrid form
> 
> They are hurting Akainu, and they are hurting him badly
> 
> Luffy could one-shot Cracker after a twelve hour fight with literally thousands of meatshields and an ally that completely negated his main form of offense and defense. In a straight match he'd have killed Luffy. Now I don't think G4 is close to admiral level but I doubt they'd be able to stomp him either, and Cracker is above that


Why do you think commanders would not go all out during the war? Even if we put aside whatever was not shown/shown,logically,if your friend is going to die and your "pops" is in a very bad situation while all your friends are dropping left,right and centre,would you conserve energy or will you kill? The logical explanation is the admirals were not going all out,except akainu. Aokiji is lazy by nature,kizaru was goofing around the entire time,Sengoku and garp did not even want to participate till thepoint somebody reached the scaffold and the shichibukai were dancing around,because why not?

The WB pirates *gave everything* and could not win. It would have been the same if there was a healthy WB,because that would have drawn a serious response from all the WG-the 3 admirals and sengoku/Garp. 1 yonkou is never going to be enough for defeating the entire marines. When Shanks arrived,the only reason the WG backed off was because sengoku could sense the BB were a real threat,Akainu was heavily injured and all the marines were coming off the back of a battle whereas shanks crew was fresh nad he also had the power  and backing of the remaining WB pirates. That situation was a real threat since Shanks is healthy and the admirals were in danger of being killed.

In a 1 vs 1,akainu got Ace pretty good. Even generally speaking, a 1 vs 1 fight between what you say are close tier people,why would the admirals not get 1 good shot?Luffy vs lucci was a close one,both of them got multiple hits on the other. And all that is really needed by them(admirals) is really 1 good hit to KO,as compared to the commanders needing multiple hits(and even then, I doubt they are going to generate enough power to rival WB's enraged one,which akainu took head on)

No,cracker in himself is not very durable. Cracker's biscuits have high durability. Luffy basically ended the fight when he hit cracker with his clone. Luffy was being overwhelmed by the sheer number of the infinite biscuits that cracker kept producing,and his ability to hide inside them and land a surprise attack on luffy,which could hurt . Kizaru casually overpowers and outspeeds G4 and is fast enough for tagging cracker. Plus,he has the advantage of AOE attacks and Light speed movement with yasakani no magatama. He can end it with that whenever he wants

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## zoro (Aug 5, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Why do you think commanders would not go all out during the war? Even if we put aside whatever was not shown/shown,logically,if your friend is going to die and your "pops" is in a very bad situation while all your friends are dropping left,right and centre,would you conserve energy or will you kill? The logical explanation is the admirals were not going all out,except akainu. Aokiji is lazy by nature,kizaru was goofing around the entire time,Sengoku and garp did not even want to participate till thepoint somebody reached the scaffold and the shichibukai were dancing around,because why not?
> 
> The WB pirates *gave everything* and could not win. It would have been the same if there was a healthy WB,because that would have drawn a serious response from all the WG-the 3 admirals and sengoku/Garp. 1 yonkou is never going to be enough for defeating the entire marines. When Shanks arrived,the only reason the WG backed off was because sengoku could sense the BB were a real threat,Akainu was heavily injured and all the marines were coming off the back of a battle whereas shanks crew was fresh nad he also had the power  and backing of the remaining WB pirates. That situation was a real threat since Shanks is healthy and the admirals were in danger of being killed.
> 
> ...



If everyone on Marineford went all out the island would have been destroyed a hundred times over, commanders included. And their goal was to free ace not kill the enemy, sure they were fighting seriously but it doesn't mean they used their best attacks, unless you think Marco's talons slashes are the best the right-hand man of the WSM has to offer. They didn't even come close to giving everything in terms of pure fighting power. Neither did the other side

They can get good hits, the point is Katakuri and Marco will put the admiral they're fighting down quicker than the other two admiral will the commanders

Cracker or his biscuits don't matter, they're part of his power and they're a beast of a defense. G4 Luffy is a speed monster, not on Kizaru's level sure but still a speed monster, and Cracker had no problems fighting him. And he was on the offensive. If he plays deffensively to stall who knows how long he can last. His biscuits need Kong Gun level firepower to be destroyed and he can create a virtually infinite ammount of them


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> If everyone on Marineford went all out the island would have been destroyed a hundred times over, commanders included. And their goal was to free ace not kill the enemy, sure they were fighting seriously but it doesn't mean they used their best attacks, unless you think Marco's talons slashes are the best the right-hand man of the WSM has to offer. They didn't even come close to giving everything in terms of pure fighting power. Neither did the other side
> 
> They can get good hits, the point is Katakuri and Marco will put the admiral they're fighting down quicker than the other two admiral will the commanders
> 
> Cracker or his biscuits don't matter, they're part of his power and they're a beast of a defense. G4 Luffy is a speed monster, not on Kizaru's level sure but still a speed monster, and Cracker had no problems fighting him. And he was on the offensive. If he plays deffensively to stall who knows how long he can last. His biscuits need Kong Gun level firepower to be destroyed and he can create a virtually infinite ammount of them


Not everyone was intending to destroy the island were they? Again,put that down to plot,just as putting down whitebeard not being able to destroy the encircling walls when he can bust up a small continent is plot.

No,on panel,they didn't show their named attacks. But off panel,going logically,with your friends being killed,would you not go all out?The marines have no reason to go all out,they need to only kill something they already have their hands on. Also,the marines are ranked people,they are not as close as crewmates which are friends and family to these pirates. There is no reason for akainu/kizaru/aokiji to get angry and go ham when an unnamed ranked marine is killed. They will just replace him with another one and call him a casualty of war. For pirates though,even one down is like losing a member of your family. Why will the commanders not go all out?

And going by that logic,Jozu was brought down by an unnamed aokiji attack. Now imagine if the admiral uses a named attack on him then..

No,once again,an admiral needs 1 good hit to kill the commander. Jozu/katakuri need multiple hits to damage an admiral,let alone kill.

Kizaru is faster than what g4 can do..you know it as well. It doesn't matter how durable his clones are..Luffy in G4 does not have AOE attacks(or has not been shown to have any till now) and the only way he could get through the biscuits was with G4 since G3/G2 are just not powerful enough. Kizaru on the other hand has AOE attacks which can pierce through as many biscuits as cracker can put up and kill him with one shot.


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 5, 2017)

Gyro said:


> If everyone on Marineford went all out the island would have been destroyed a hundred times over, commanders included. And their goal was to free ace not kill the enemy, sure they were fighting seriously but it doesn't mean they used their best attacks, unless you think Marco's talons slashes are the best the right-hand man of the WSM has to offer. They didn't even come close to giving everything in terms of pure fighting power. Neither did the other side
> 
> They can get good hits, the point is Katakuri and Marco will put the admiral they're fighting down quicker than the other two admiral will the commanders
> 
> Cracker or his biscuits don't matter, they're part of his power and they're a beast of a defense. G4 Luffy is a speed monster, not on Kizaru's level sure but still a speed monster, and Cracker had no problems fighting him. And he was on the offensive. If he plays deffensively to stall who knows how long he can last. His biscuits need *Kong Gun level firepower* to be destroyed and he can create a virtually infinite ammount of them



You are aware that this is the casual damage output of the yonko, admirals, and other top tiers right?


----------



## Gohara (Aug 6, 2017)

The Yonkou Commanders win with high to extremely high difficulty in my opinion.  A team of Lord Cracker and Lord Katakuri at the very least match up on par with a team of Fujitora and Kizaru.  Lord Cracker gives the team amazing defense that not even Gear 4th Luffy could get through within Gear 4th's limits.  Since neither of those Admirals have shown superior offense and speed to Gear 4th Luffy Lord Cracker's defense should be sufficient.  Fujitora's Meteors might be a different story if Lord Katakuri didn't have amazing Observation Haki to plan ahead and if Lord Cracker couldn't regenerate Biscuit Soldiers.  Even if Kizaru is faster than Gear 4th Luffy- which is not entirely clear- Lord Katakuri's Observation Haki gives the team a leg up in that strategy.  Lord Katakuri can also slow Kizaru down with his Devil Fruit Abilities.  Marco has matched up on par with Admirals so I don't see why Lord Katakuri wouldn't be able to as well.  Lord Cracker's portrayal is comparable to Doflamingo's character, a character who arguably has comparable portrayal to most Admirals.  So even though I like to think that the Admirals are generally more powerful than Lord Cracker it would be a great match up.

I would give Jozu and Marco an edge over Akainu.  I consider Akainu to be more powerful than them individually but combined Jozu and Marco should at least be around low to mid Yonkou level.  However I can see a good case being made for Akainu winning.  Especially since I think that Akainu has become more powerful during the time skip.  I would give Jozu and Marco an edge more often than not though.  Both characters are tanks that can switch off between being the primary defense while the other looks for openings.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## trance (Aug 6, 2017)

Fujitora levitates his colleagues, then proceeds to lift Marineford out of the water and drop it on their opposition

afterwards, they enjoy a cup of tea and a couple joints together

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## trance (Aug 6, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> intangibility



>thinking pineapple head has intangibility

muh insides


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 6, 2017)

Gohara said:


> The Yonkou Commanders win with high to extremely high difficulty in my opinion.  A team of Lord Cracker and Lord Katakuri at the very least match up on par with a team of Fujitora and Kizaru.  Lord Cracker gives the team amazing defense that not even Gear 4th Luffy could get through within Gear 4th's limits.  Since neither of those Admirals have shown superior offense and speed to Gear 4th Luffy Lord Cracker's defense should be sufficient.  Fujitora's Meteors might be a different story if Lord Katakuri didn't have amazing Observation Haki to plan ahead and if Lord Cracker couldn't regenerate Biscuit Soldiers.  Even if Kizaru is faster than Gear 4th Luffy- which is not entirely clear- Lord Katakuri's Observation Haki gives the team a leg up in that strategy.  Lord Katakuri can also slow Kizaru down with his Devil Fruit Abilities.  Marco has matched up on par with Admirals so I don't see why Lord Katakuri wouldn't be able to as well.  Lord Cracker's portrayal is comparable to Doflamingo's character, a character who arguably has comparable portrayal to most Admirals.  So even though I like to think that the Admirals are generally more powerful than Lord Cracker it would be a great match up.
> 
> I would give Jozu and Marco an edge over Akainu.  I consider Akainu to be more powerful than them individually but combined Jozu and Marco should at least be around low to mid Yonkou level.  However I can see a good case being made for Akainu winning.  Especially since I think that Akainu has become more powerful during the time skip.  I would give Jozu and Marco an edge more often than not though.  Both characters are tanks that can switch off between being the primary defense while the other looks for openings.


There was so much wrong in this that it made my head spin.

Okay,so basically you have figured some things-like akainu being overwhelmingly strong and the commanders not being complete pushovers.

Now,to the things that you got wrong-
Yes kizaru is faster than G4 luffy-by a lot. Lets not bring in the fact that kizaru is the fastest man in the OP verse till now and is one part of the original 3 strongest people to counter the yonkous. Let's also not bring calculations into this and let's just go by kizaru showing lightspeed with the mirror technique-g4 isn't matching that.

Second,you compare cracker to doflamingo,and you think doflamingo is comparable to admirals? What? So are you saying at this point in time,with G4, luffy craps on all admirals except akainu? Doflamingo is the guy who was panting just from the exertion of getting hit with 1 attack after aokiji casually froze him when doffy tried to attack smoker from literally a few inches away.

Third,you think katakuri is enough to hold off admirals? like plural? When considering cracker is like a non-existent threat to any of the admirals(since you even compare him with doffy,you know doffy tried attacking fuji in dressrosa,right?You saw how casually fuji handled him?)? katakuri,the guy who turned pale when he saw big mom scream,the guy who did not try to calm big mom down and he and smoothie ran instead of saving opera from big mom's craziness,is going to go against the people who are the marines strongest force to counter the yonkou?

Lastly,are you serious marco and jozu together take out akainu? If you reread the manga,you will see akainu took hits from whitebeard head on and survived,while one shotting ace. He then proceeded to take marco and vistas haki clad hits and brush it off as an annoyance. Do you think marco and jozu generate enough offensive power to outmatch whitebeard?

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 6, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> >thinking pineapple head has intangibility
> 
> muh insides


Don't quote that guy.You might wind up in a long lasting debate that might make you question your sanity.

He can make claims ranging from streusen beating mihawk to sanji not being able to beat a pacifista post timeskip

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## trance (Aug 6, 2017)

12zoro said:


> You might wind up in a long lasting debate that might make you question your sanity



i'm not

i'm just pointing out to him that marco *does not *have intangibility and this is an irrefutable canon fact

but knowing pwngoat, he'll come up with some convoluted and outlandish response that involves an extensive amount of mental gymnastics as to why marco does have intangibility that i won't bother responding to


----------



## Tenma (Aug 6, 2017)

Admirals have irrefutably better portrayal at this point than Yonko commanders though at the same time Yonko have irrefutably better portrayal than admirals (they can thank to Big Meme's pirates pathetic showing before berserk Mom for that),.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 6, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> i'm not
> 
> i'm just pointing out to him that marco *does not *have intangibility and this is an irrefutable canon fact
> 
> but knowing pwngoat, he'll come up with some convoluted and outlandish response that involves an extensive amount of mental gymnastics as to why marco does have intangibility that i won't bother responding to


I did that horrible mistake in another thread..still paying for that mistake


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 6, 2017)

12zoro said:


> I did that horrible mistake in another thread..still paying for that mistake



It was an initiation bro


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 6, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> It was an initiation bro


What horrible ideas you have for the extremely naive new members

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## savior2005 (Aug 6, 2017)

i think an admiral is an absolute nightmare in matchup against cracker. I feel like cracker wouldn't even be much of a threat tbh.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Bernkastel (Aug 6, 2017)

Admirals are winning but not easily...cracker is the weak link here ..he's the Vista of BM pirates so he won't cut it against such powerful opposition..if you replace him with a 1st mate/2nd commander then we have a fight leaning towards the commanders...


----------



## Gohara (Aug 6, 2017)

@ zoro.

-Kizaru isn't literally as fast as the speed of light.  If he were basically every scene that he's in would go way differently.  It even takes Kizaru several panels to travel an area of multiple blocks when kicking Apoo's character.  A character who moves at the speed of light would be able to travel around Earth many times in those same panels.  I do agree that having The Light Abilities implies that Kizaru is one of the fastest characters in the series but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should automatically consider him faster than every other character in the series regardless of what feats that they show.  Gear 4th Luffy is capable of somewhat speed blitzing some of the fastest characters that we've seen so far which in my opinion gives his character's speed top tier portrayal.  If you can prove that Kizaru is faster than Gear 4th Luffy I will happily agree but until then I'm hesitant to claim that either character is clearly faster than the other.

-I don't agree that the Admirals are the top 3 characters to counter the Yonkou Crews.  The World Government also has characters like CP0, Fleet Admirals, The Shichibukai, Garp, Kong, etc. and that's not even including The Gorosei who could be very powerful characters as well.  The Admirals are some of the most powerful characters in The World Government but they're not more powerful than Garp, the Fleet Admirals, Mihawk, and Kong.  I even consider those characters to be more powerful than the Admirals.

-Doflamingo breathing like that is because he was frozen in ice, many people breathe like that when it's cold outside.  Doflamingo allowed Aokiji to freeze him and then he broke out of The Ice Technique without much of a problem, and then proceeded to laugh at Aokiji.  That certainly doesn't sound like a character who thinks that Aokiji is more powerful than himself.  I'm open to the possibility that the Admirals are more powerful than Doflamingo but so far there really isn't any proof that they are.  Doflamingo is physically strong like the Admirals with Akainu being physically stronger.  Doflamingo has great defense like the Admirals, with Akainu having superior defense.  Doflamingo has great combat ability like the Admirals.  Doflamingo is fast like the Admirals and is arguably even faster than some of them, with Kizaru having superior speed.  Doflamingo is great at using Haki like the Admirals, and unlike the Admirals is noted to have even mastered all 3 types of Haki.  Although I do think that the Admirals likely have as well.  Doflamingo has some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities that we've seen so far like the Admirals.  I do consider Pre Time Skip Akainu to be more powerful than Doflamingo but I also consider Pre Time Skip Akainu to be exceptional even for an Admiral.  Outside of Pre Time Skip Akainu I don't really see any proof that the Admirals are decisively superior to Doflamingo.  Also, if you're going to suggest that Aokiji is > Doflamingo due to Doflamingo panting, then wouldn't that suggest that a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy is > Fujitora due to Fujitora panting?  Although I don't actually think that's the case but if that's the reasoning that someone is using then they should also consider Luffy to be more powerful than Fujitora.  Additionally Doflamingo is arguably more powerful than Luffy who Rayleigh stated would be pointless to go to The New World if he can't fend off an invasion of an Admiral, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many other Marines.  If Rayleigh already thought that Luffy was capable of doing that around half a year prior to the beginning of Post Time Skip, then at the very least Luffy should be capable of giving an Admiral around high difficulty and in some cases possibly even more.  Unless Rayleigh has no idea how powerful the Admirals are.

-Ah, no, my bad.  I do think that Lord Katakuri can more than hold off an Admiral but I don't mean multiple Admirals.

-Fujitora blocking a casual kick from Doflamingo is hardly the same thing as casually being superior.  Using that reasoning Doflamingo is superior to Fujitora because he destroyed Fujitora's Meteors without much of a problem multiple times.  It's also worth noting that Fujitora was unable to break through Doflamingo's Bird Cage Technique.  If Fujitora can't break out of Doflamingo's Bird Cage Technique what would he do if Doflamingo surrounds him with it in a match up?  Also, most of what I'm saying about Doflamingo goes for Lord Cracker as well.  Lord Cracker is physically stronger than Gear 3rd Luffy and a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy pushed Fujitora back, suggesting that in terms of physical strength Lord Cracker is > Fujitora.  For not even Gear 4th Luffy to be able to get around Lord Cracker's defense also gives Lord Cracker's defense superior portrayal.  Fujitora would arguably at least need Meteors to destroy Biscuit Soldiers but Lord Cracker can regenerate them.  Outside of that how else does Fujitora defeat Lord Cracker?  We know that Sabo level characters can maneuver around in Fujitora's Gravity Techniques and Sabo hasn't yet shown to be decisively above Lord Cracker's level of power.  Plus in the specific match up in question Lord Katakuri can plan for Fujitora's Meteors due to his character's Observation Haki.

-I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of how Lord Katakuri reacts in those scenes but I don't see what Big Mam's character has to do with what we're talking about.  I consider the Yonkou to be a level above the Admirals in general.

-Not only is that an ill and battle worn Old Whitebeard at the time but that version of Whitebeard's character nearly defeated Pre Time Skip Akainu with only a couple Techniques.  I do agree that Akainu can withstand multiple Techniques from Jozu and Marco but those characters have amazing defense as well.  Marco's and arguably Jozu's defense are even superior.  From what we've seen so far Akainu does have superior offense to them individually but we're not talking about one on one match ups here, we're talking about a match up where Jozu's and Marco's characters are teaming up.  Also, that's a battle worn Ace who intentionally took the Technique for Luffy.  Plus Jozu's and Marco's defenses are significantly superior.  Whether or not Akainu was hit by Vista and Marco is debatable but it was only one relatively brief clash.  We've seen many Pre Time Skip Supernova level characters withstand Techniques from Admirals.  Yet do those scenes suggest that Admirals can't defeat Pre Time Skip Supernovas?  Obviously not.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 6, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ zoro.
> 
> -Kizaru isn't literally as fast as the speed of light.  If he were basically every scene that he's in would go way differently.  It even takes Kizaru several panels to travel an area of multiple blocks when kicking Apoo's character.  A character who moves at the speed of light would be able to travel around Earth many times in those same panels.  I do agree that having The Light Abilities implies that Kizaru is one of the fastest characters in the series but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should automatically consider him faster than every other character in the series regardless of what feats that they show.  Gear 4th Luffy is capable of somewhat speed blitzing some of the fastest characters that we've seen so far which in my opinion gives his character's speed top tier portrayal.  If you can prove that Kizaru is faster than Gear 4th Luffy I will happily agree but until then I'm hesitant to claim that either character is clearly faster than the other.
> 
> ...


Reread the part where kizaru kicks apoo. Check out apoo's positions in the background when kizaru launches his attack.You will see he has barely moved in the entire timeframe it took for kizaru to regen,start the technique and get kicked down. Mind you,this was an apoo trying to run away,so he should logically be going fast and not strolling.Then reread the part where luffy tries to outrun the 3 admirals at Marineford. He is literally frozen mid soru,when kizaru comes from behind and kicks him. Now tell me what speed feat G4 has that compares to these.

Doflamingo was literally frozen mid attack by kuzan. And if kuzan had wanted,he would have ended it right there by breaking the ice structure. That is the difference of the power levels between him and the admirals. Why do you think doffy wolud have decided to take another course of action if he is around admiral tier himself? wouldn't it have been much easier to kill everyone on punk hazard if he was equally matched(or nearly equally matched) so that his plans would not leak out?

On top of that,doffy isn't even the strongest shichibukai(that is undoubtedly mihawk). If you think doffy is near admiral tiers,doffy got beat by G4. Now, I am one to argue that dressrosa arc luffy isn't going to beat a full health doffy himself without outside help,but there is no denying that luffy was overpowering doffy in G4. Given the rapid progression of luffy and his increase in strength every arc(or even considering his lack of increase), that would mean cracker and similar 3rd mates of yonkous are admiral tier or higher. Now put this in perspective with Big mom who casually blocked G4 attack like it was nothing. How in the world would the admirals and marines have stood any chance against WB then? By that powerscaling,kaidou or WB are probably going to one shot admirals since they are literally tiers above their first mates,let alone the third mates.

Rayleigh did not teach luffy to fight against the admirals and win. Ray taught luffy a way to combat admiral abilities meaning hit logia users. He taught the basics of all 3 types of haki to luffy. If he was to train luffy to win over the yonkous/admirals,luffy would still be stuck on Rusukaina island. Why do you think he needed to "check" up on him when he was up against only pacifistas and below VA marines on saboady?

Katakuri went pale just by seeing Big mom getting angry.Smoothie was literally running away from an angry Big mom. Unless you think she was just doing it for fun and not really interested in saving ospera's life,it indicates the huge gap in power between the actual yonkou and his/her subordinates. this ties in with the fact that admirals are meant to combat them(the yonkous) and could not possibly as weak as or even in the same tier as second commanders who are>3rd commanders who in turn >G4>= Doffy. You wouldn't give the "marines strongest force" title to someone if they are weaker than so many people in the marines itself,right? That is like saying WB is the strongest but weaker than Roger,Garp,Kaidou,Shanks,BB etc..


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 6, 2017)

Are people seriously arguing that the commanders stand a chance here ?


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 6, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Jozu and Cracker hold two admirals while Kata and Marco murk the third one



They ain't holding shit.Fujitora would obliterate Cracker unless you think that a Ferocious tiger is weaker than a kong gun.

Also Kata and Marco can't murk shit.Akainu would beat the fuck out of them.

Seriously what's with the sudden Admiral downplay ? Fujitora treated Sabo like utter garbage and I see people here mentioning that he's weaker than most commanders.Jesus fuck.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## trance (Aug 7, 2017)

@12zoro 

a life lesson; never srs db8 with gohara

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2017)

Sakazuki said:


> They ain't holding shit.Fujitora would obliterate Cracker unless you think that a Ferocious tiger is weaker than a kong gun.
> Also Kata and Marco can't murk shit.Akainu would beat the fuck out of them.
> Seriously what's with the sudden Admiral downplay ? Fujitora treated Sabo like utter garbage and I see people here mentioning that he's weaker than most commanders.Jesus fuck.



I respectfully disagree. Lord Fujitora is only around low high mid shichibukai level, maybe mid high mid shichibukai level, while Lord Cracker is around high mid-high mid shichibukai level, so it should be around very high mid high difficulty. This is all just in my opinion of course.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Winner 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Aug 7, 2017)

The commanders win this. Any one of those commanders can stall an admiral. Add an extra one and he tips the balance of whatever fight he joins.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> None of the Yonkou commanders have shown requisite lethality to make any advantage in numbers count here whereas we've seen an Admiral hold off multiple commanders. As such the Admirals should handily take this.
> 
> The Marco & Vista vs Akainu and Akainu (plus a bunch of fodder marines because they matter so much right at this level Sera) vs the WB commanders portrayals really did a number in demonstrating how out of their league these guys are.



-Where did an admiral hold off multiple commanders? If you mean Akainu then no. Not only did he have half of the marine force but Kizaru was in the area, as well as Aokiji, who froze the water a few pages after that Sakazuki spread to prevent the WB's from fleeing.
-Numbers do matter when you are not a logia. Oda would not have highlighted all the gunshots, stab wounds etc WB suffered if it didn't matter. Yes they are superhuman by our standards but their organs still work like ours and bloodloss is a thing. The only option for a non-logia is to use CoA haki the whole war which has a limit according to Law.
-I can't believe I am defending half of the most elite marines as non-fodder. It included squad captains as well.
-Just because Marco didn't do noticeable damage to an admiral doesn't mean he can't beat one. Akainu and Aokiji fought for 10 days but somehow Marco is expected to bruise them right off the bat.
-Having a hax fruit that can oneshot someone when distracted does not mean you are at a higher level 1v1 with no distractions. Would we say Sugar is Roger level if she hit him while he was distracted?
-You have no manga basis to say an admiral would win 1v1 against a commander with no distractions. Kizaru, Akainu and Aokiji did nothing to any commander when they were not distracted in extended exchanges. Unless you have a panel that disproves this?

The most you can say is that in a war situation an admiral is stronger because of the power their logia abilities give. Not only do they have AOE abilities for fodder, but they are harder to damage with conventional weapons. Contrast this with most commanders who have to actually waste stamina fighting fodder and dodging bullets etc. 



Sakazuki said:


> They ain't holding shit.Fujitora would obliterate Cracker unless you think that a *Ferocious tiger is weaker than a kong gun*.
> 
> Also Kata and Marco can't murk shit.Akainu would beat the fuck out of them.
> 
> Seriously what's with the sudden Admiral downplay ? *Fujitora treated Sabo like utter garbage *and I see people here mentioning that he's weaker than most commanders.Jesus fuck.



What damage did ferocious tiger do to a non-serious Luffy? what an OP attack. Fujitora got pushed back from a non-serious no-named G3 move while Cracker outright punked a serious Elephant Gun. Lmao at obliterate 

Also who was using named moves? Fujitora or Sabo? Sabo treated Burgess more seriously. Sabo's only goal there btw was to stop the marines from attacking Luffy, which means he did as much as he needed to. Fujitora also said it would be believable for the no.2 of the revo army to have stopped him. 

Fuji gave Sabo good practice for his newly acquired fruit I'll give him that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> -Where did an admiral hold off multiple commanders? If you mean Akainu then no. Not only did he have half of the marine force but Kizaru was in the area



This is a common mistake. The commanders faced off against *Akainu alone in chapter 578*, swearing to stop him from pursuing Luffy. It was only *in 579 that Sengoku told half the marines to go help fight the remnants of the WB crew*. A few pages after that, we see Akainu standing victorious over Curiel's magmafisted body, with numerous marines in the background rushing to join him. Shortly after that, Akainu continued pursuing Luffy.





> -You have no manga basis to say an admiral would win 1v1 against a commander with no distractions. Kizaru, Akainu and Aokiji did nothing to any commander when they were not distracted in extended exchanges. Unless you have a panel that disproves this?



Why are you assuming that Jozu wouldn't get distracted in this fight?


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> The commanders win this. Any one of those commanders can stall an admiral. Add an extra one and he tips the balance of whatever fight he joins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Admirals still win this but not that easy like many people think.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> This is a common mistake. The commanders faced off against *Akainu alone in chapter 578*, swearing to stop him from pursuing Luffy. It was only *in 579 that Sengoku told half the marines to go help fight the remnants of the WB crew*. A few pages after that, we see Akainu standing victorious over Curiel's magmafisted body, with numerous marines in the background rushing to join him. Shortly after that, Akainu continued pursuing Luffy.



Pretty much this. Akainu hold he's ground Vs the commanders.



barreltheif said:


> Why are you assuming that Jozu wouldn't get distracted in this fight?



Because they have the advantage by 4 v 3, and Aokiji is not even in the match up.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> Because they have the advantage by 4 v 3, and Aokiji is not even in the match up.



Aokiji wasn't what distracted Jozu. It was Marco getting hit by lasers that did no damage to him.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Aug 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> This is a common mistake. The commanders faced off against *Akainu alone in chapter 578*, swearing to stop him from pursuing Luffy. It was only *in 579 that Sengoku told half the marines to go help fight the remnants of the WB crew*. A few pages after that, we see Akainu standing victorious over Curiel's magmafisted body, with numerous marines in the background rushing to join him. Shortly after that, Akainu continued pursuing Luffy.



I have my doubts since Aokiji was in the area before that spread?:



Also putting chapter numbers in bold means nothing. They do not indicate vast amounts of time passing.

-Akainu stands in front of Commanders
-Clash
-Law shows up with Kizaru also in the area
-Sengoku gives order
-Akainu is shown with a ton of marines behind him beating Curiel, a weak commander




barreltheif said:


> Why are you assuming that Jozu wouldn't get distracted in this fight?



This statement does not counter the *1v1 *argument. Try again. He got distracted because of Marco getting hit, as a result of him being distracted by WB's heart attack. A bar brawl is not a 1v1 situation.



Don Elson said:


> Admirals still win this but not that easy like many people think.



Commanders still win this but it is easier than many people think.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Aokiji wasn't what distracted Jozu. It was Marco getting hit by lasers that did no damage to him.



Yes, but it was Aokiji that made him out for the rest of the war and your right I'm thinking that WB was made him being distracted, my memories was so bad.



Seraphoenix said:


> Commanders still win this but it is easier than many people think.



Let's agree to disagree, Until I saw something to the commanders that is worthy to be equal to the Admirals until then I still put them below the Admirals.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> >thinking pineapple head has intangibility
> 
> muh insides


I've already proven this point.
He's not always in this state, he has to actively activate it.

It's the reason why his mass wasn't displaced and he suffered no physical pain when shot by Kizaru lasers. If he was hurt and regenerated thanks to his phoenix powers, he'd have
1) Showed physical pain
2) Died considering some of the times he was hit
3) Would have been displaced spacially

The only times he has ever suffered any of these is
1) When he was blindsided by Kizaru and when he was arguably blindsided by Garp
2) When he had to use his physical body as a shield to protect like when he repelled Akainu against luffy and repelled Kizaru against Whitebeard, he didn't really show pain since he didn't show his face when he did it to protect whitebeard and he was grimacing in a clash so it was hard to tell against Akainu, however he was displaced, the attacks weren't enough to kill him, and he showed physical pain/struggle the time it showed his face
3) When he had seastone on which stops him from using said abilities


The only time he ever had any weight was when he was attacking other people, when he was hit while unaware, when he had seastone on, when he was using his body as a shield to defend someone else (cuz if the attack when through him it'd be pointless), and when Garp attacked him with a physical punch.

Marco seems to not be able to attack people when he is intangible but attacks like kizaru's beams are unable to hurt Marco if he's aware and isn't trying to defend the attack against someone else



Notice how marco is literally made of flames, also recognize there is a hole in his head when he's in his human form and he is showing no degree of pain, damage and pain would heal but they would hurt if he wasn't intangible as an initial thing.

Also notice how the attacks go THROUGH him when he's charging, he isn't displaced like something is pushing him back, he isn't showing any pain, etc etc.

In comparison to:


See how the attack doesn't go through him but instead builds up in an orb since it's stopped in place? That's becuase the attacks are being stopped. Also notice how he when healing is showed to be a tad worse for wears, like he was actually in physical pain (but is heavily used to it so he can handle it)

So yeah, in response, there is literally nothing pointing towards Marco not being able to become intangible, however it requires more conscious effort from Marco than a logia, he doesn't seem to have the large scale ability to manipulate his element like the admirals and ace can (which is made up by the fact that he is a zoan so his physicals and ability to fly are exceptional)

But in the end, an attack like a ranged kizaru beam won't do shit to Marco because he is intangible when he is aware of the attack and is able to use his fruit (not hampered by seastone or having to use his physical body to repel an attack against another person), though an admiral would still be able to hurt him just like how marco can hurt them, though it would require that you either completely destroy him (which no one in one piece can do, it'd require someone from like yuyu hakusho or up) so that there is nothing to regenerate from or you hit him with physical attacks so hard that you can beat him with a few hits and do it quickly like someone like whitebeard can do, or you outlast his healing factor then beat him at his best, which isn't easy since he's a top tier who also has the advantage in a cqc fight due to being a logia and one who can fly, also the regeneration is a huge thing too. Or well you use seastone to beat him, which still won't be easy as you'd still have to overpower him.

So yeah, marco is kind of a fucking monster in strength. Akainu's lava fists (not shot ones but ones around his actual fist) should be able to be infused with haki so that should work on being able to damage him (though he can clash pretty equally and heal from it) but stuff like ace throwing a fire spam, aokiji doing an ice spam, or kizaru shooting lasers won't do the job. Kizaru would then head into cqc with his light sword or using unarmed martial arts and akainu would do the same but with lava fists and shit, Aokiji just seems out of luck though. But you have to realize that he's a flighted logia who has healing so if he trades blows with you, you'll lose, even if you somehow match his logia strength because he'll heal the wounds while you'll not.

He sent Kizaru flying into the ground, which Kizaru then turned to light to stop the crashing damage of being hit.

I'd say Marco is either > than admirals if Kizaru and AOkiji are truly = Akainu pre timeskip, or he is = Akainu if Akainu is a step above them. Marco also likely gained strength since the timeskip like Akainu did cuz they took up higher roles within their respective organizations that both required more strength and also allowed them more freedoms/responsibilities that would benefit from being stronger, just like how chinjao once retiring lost strength, they'd get a lesser boost of power that is still a decent boost.

Marco should right now be weaker than all the yonkou but the undisputed strongest non yonkou pirate. But yeah, evaluating the panels prove my point, there is a clear reason he's a phoenix made of blue flames and not just a bird that can regenerate. He is unable to attack while intangible but he has the ability to be intangible.

So we have:
1) High physicals
2) Flight
3) Regeneration
4) A lesser intangibility than that of admirals but still intangibility

There is a reason why mystical fruits are rarer. It's kind of like how Sengoku probably gets a physical boost and a defense boost since he's made of gold, and not just the shockwave ability. Wouldn't be surprised if there is more to Sengoku's ability like an increase in intelligence and more combat abilities since he probably will have at least one more fight in the series (which might result in him dying)
I also wouldn't be surprised if Marco can heal other people by putting his flames onto them with the intention of doing so, like Jozu coming back post timeskip with 2 arms and it's revealed that Marco did it and he's always been kind of the front line healer of the crew who mended them up.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> Yes, but it was Aokiji that made him out for the rest of the war and your right I'm thinking that WB was made him being distracted, my memories was so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's agree to disagree, Until I saw something to the commanders that is worthy to be equal to the Admirals until then I still put them below the Admirals.


Marco having the edge over Kizaru until bullshit happened.
1) Turning around to worry about Whitebeard
2) Being double teamed where the second person slipped on seastone

Marco is at worst equal to the admirals and at best equal to akainu or stronger than all them depending on how akainu stands in comparison to the other 2

Jozu at the very least in moderately close to admiral level and at best = admiral level

Ishoo also seems a step below the pre timeskip admirals.

Marco and Jozu can standstill 2 admirals at the very least
While two commanders (katakuri should be able to standstill an admiral himself while cracker is a step down but still a huge asset) beat one, then it suddenly becomes 4 v 2 or 1 v 1 and 3 v 1.
Then when one loses it becomes 4 v 1.

Marco, Katakuri, and Jozu vs the 3 admirals would be a fair fight.
Adding Cracker though makes this a stomp.

Marco would handle Akainu while Katakuri and Jozu deal with Kizaru and Ishoo.
I can see you claiming the admirals win that fight but I'd disagree.

Though to say adding Cracker and the admirals would win, that's just pure fan fiction trash. 4 top commanders beat 3 admirals, even if you replace Ishoo with Aokiji.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

12zoro said:


> There was so much wrong in this that it made my head spin.
> 
> Okay,so basically you have figured some things-like akainu being overwhelmingly strong and the commanders not being complete pushovers.
> 
> ...


Stop posting in this section if you do n't like being laughed at.

Marco can handle Akainu alone.

Whitebeard hit Whitebeard with 2 hits and Akainu was on the ground.
He beat Ace who is weaker than Vista cuz he used himself as a human shield to defend Luffy.
He didn't take anything, he got hit by their attacks and he groaned in pain and gritted his teeth together, it took Akainu 10 days to defeat an admiral (Aokiji), therefore he didn't do any more damage than they did (and vista is weaker than marco and jozu by a lot), therefore does that mean akainu isn't admiral level? But he beat an admiral so he must be right?

Your logic makes no sense. '

Marco vs Akainu
Jozu, Katakuri, and Cracker vs Kizaru and Ishoo (who should be weaker than akainu and kizaru anyway)

Marco doesn't have to generate more than Whitebeard, neither Marco or Akainu are 2 hitting each other.

Big Mom > Admirals

Your posts are so easy to disprove.

Cracker is weaker than admirals but he is strong enough to make a difference while teamed up with someone who is admiralish level. This is a 4 v 3 fight, not a 4 v 4 fight.

Cracker just has to team up with Jozu or katakuri to low or mid diff Ishoo then all of a sudden it becomes a 4 v 2 fight.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Don't quote that guy.You might wind up in a long lasting debate that might make you question your sanity.
> 
> He can make claims ranging from streusen beating mihawk to sanji not being able to beat a pacifista post timeskip


Sanji can beat a pre timeskip pacifista, he didn't one hit a pre timeskip pacifista though. The argument was one hitting a pacifista, pre timeskip pacifista (post are stronger but we haven't seen them yet to gauge their strength) are only Frankyish leveled, of course Sanji would beat a pacifista, with low difficulty. He however did not one hit a pacifista, he teamed up with Zoro and both threw one attack, and Zoro is stronger than him.

So Sanji pretty much hit the pacifista for around 40% of it's health maybe. Zoro did more and both together beat it with an attack each.

Great job not understanding what we were arguing even though you brought up the debate in the other thread, or maybe you're just misquoting me to try to discredit me, at which point, that's a bitchy thing to do.


----------



## trance (Aug 7, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 4) A lesser intangibility than that of admirals but still intangibility



>convoluted and outlandish response
>extensive amount of mental gymnastics
>proved absolutely nothing

did i call it or did i call it 

continue to be a meme of the ol

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Also putting chapter numbers in bold means nothing. They do not indicate vast amounts of time passing.
> -Akainu stands in front of Commanders
> -Clash
> -Law shows up with Kizaru also in the area
> ...



Akainu alone vs all of the commanders lasted less than a chapter. No one disputes that. I was correcting your mistaken claim that Akainu had half of the marines fighting alongside him. He didn't. They arrived in the next chapter.




> This statement does not counter the *1v1 *argument. Try again. He got distracted because of Marco getting hit, as a result of him being distracted by WB's heart attack. A bar brawl is not a 1v1 situation.



This thread isn't a 1 vs 1 fight. Try again.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Aug 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Akainu alone vs all of the commanders lasted less than a chapter. No one disputes that. I was correcting your mistaken claim that Akainu had half of the marines fighting alongside him. He didn't. They arrived in the next chapter.


Yes mb I remembered incorrectly. In any event he fought the commanders for a very short amount of time. As the marines, joined him after they saw Law arrive. The use of the word chapter seems to imply a long period of time when we are talking under 5 mins. Also Aokiji and Kizaru were already in the area meaning there was the added danger of watching your back for those two.



barreltheif said:


> This thread isn't a 1 vs 1 fight. Try again.



You disputed my claim of there being no manga basis to say an admiral would beat a commander 1v1 with no distractions, by referring to the hypothetical in the OP which is not a 1v1. Try again.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco having the edge over Kizaru until bullshit happened.
> 1) Turning around to worry about Whitebeard
> 2) Being double teamed where the second person slipped on seastone
> 
> ...



Erm... I don't know what to say to this, It's true Marco can fight evenly with Akainu or Kizaru but like I said before for so many time he can't win it's a matter of time how long he will last and I know it was long because of he's DF and for the rest of the commanders like you said they can standstill but that's how far they can go they can't beat the Admirals. You make a match up also in which, Marco vs Akainu, Katakuri vs Kizaru, Jozu vs Ishoo, now if you look at that match up like you said they can stalemate but I am having a hard time believing what you stated cause in my POV Admirals will win that and Add Cracker it was an equal both sides(Although my guts still tell me the Admirals can win this). And you call my opinion just pure fan fiction trash so what's the point right? In respect to you that's why I bother to give my opinion again since you take your time explaining your side and people always have different opinion you have yours and I have mine. It just that I never call your post pure fan fiction instead an opinion and once again this is just my opinion on this thread: the Commanders vs the Admirals and my take on power scaling are Yonko>Admirals>Commanders.


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 7, 2017)

This is the only time I will reply to you since you are a well known downplayer and as I said you deserve to get banned for your dumb opinion.


Seraphoenix said:


> > What damage did ferocious tiger do to a non-serious Luffy? what an OP attack. Fujitora got pushed back from a non-serious no-named G3 move while Cracker outright punked a serious Elephant Gun. Lmao at obliterate
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yes mb I remembered incorrectly. In any event he fought the commanders for a very short amount of time. As the marines, joined him after they saw Law arrive. The use of the word chapter seems to imply a long period of time when we are talking under 5 mins. Also Aokiji and Kizaru were already in the area meaning there was the added danger of watching your back for those two.



Like all the other "extended" fights in the marineford arc (Vista vs Mihawk, Doffy vs Jozu, Jozu vs Aokiji, WB vs Akainu, etc.), Akainu vs the commanders lasted only a chapter. A chapter doesn't imply a long time. Chapters in the MF arc only covered a few minutes each on average. 5 minutes is probably about right.





> You disputed my claim of there being no manga basis to say an admiral would beat a commander 1v1 with no distractions, by referring to the hypothetical in the OP which is not a 1v1. Try again.



I didn't say anything about a 1 vs 1 fight. That was you. I asked you why Jozu wouldn't get distracted in this fight.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Aug 7, 2017)

Sakazuki said:


> This is the only time I will reply to you since you are a well known downplayer and as I said you deserve to get banned for your dumb opinion.



So edgy for someone who has no clue about what he is talking about.
*
'Are you freaking stupid ? Not only you outright ignore that Luffy has blunt immunity,you also uotright ignore the sheer scope of Fujitora's attack.Fujitora easily pulverized those rocks,rocks that were bigger than the huge plateau in Dressrosa.While holding all of the island's rubble.Fujitora was stated multiple time that he could solo the damn island.Now unless you think that Cracker or any other commander on that matter can solo an island that has the Straw Hats,Law,Doflamingo,Sabo, and tons of others then your argument is fucking pointless.'
*
-I don't give a darn what his attack did to buildings. Show me a fucking panel of Ferocious Tiger hurting someone on Cracker's level. It didn't hurt Sabo or Luffy so spare me your fairy tale horseshit. You said the attack would 'obliterate' Cracker so prove it. Cracker overpowered serious G2/3 Luffy while Fujitora had to resort to his fruit in cqc to get an edge over a non-serious tired G2/3 Luffy. That's manga fact.
-Just because there was rubble doesn't mean it could solo the alliance . Just because he thought he could end them doesn't mean he could. He thought the meteors would damage Law but it didn't happen. Don't be delusional then call people stupid when they call you out. Luffy was destroying Noah which is the size of an island in G3 but that rubble is going to kill him? Kill Zoro who was cutting mountain sized Pica? Kill Law who could just teleport them away? Character statements do not equal author statements. Fujitora couldn't even destroy birdcage.

*''Another dumb point from the master of dumb points.Named attacks ? Is this really your argument ? Sabo was glad that Fujitora even threw such an attack because he was screwing around the whole time.Sabo was panting and was visibly hurt.Fujitora was making freaking jokes during their "fight"

Fujitora never said that.Heck we have Maynard who literally can't believe that Fujitora got stalled by Sabo and immediately recalls Fujitora's words.''*

- Is this seriously your attempt at a counter? Do you even know what constitutes a valid counter? Doesn't seem so.
- What shows whether someone is serious? If Luffy uses no named attacks but his opponent does then who is more serious? Sabo's only goal was to stop the marines, which means he only did as much as he needed to to stall Fujitora. He had no killing intent. Sabo was literally the one screwing around as he was getting used to his new fruit and made no attempt to use Hiken or that move he used against Burgess.
-Panting? I guess Luffy beat Fujitora then since he was panting.
- Visibly hurt? proof? or will you run with your tail between your legs? Dirt marks indicate nothing. Unless you want me to say a no name G3 move visibly hurt Fujitora.
-Who the fuck is Maynard to know better than Fujitora what will be a plausible scenario for Sakazuki of Fuji not completing the job?
-Btw Sabo was also making jokes (' I don't discriminate')
-before using his second strongest move to date he literally says 'you are not the number 2 for nothing but I have my position to consider' (being an admiral). You think this means he wasn't serious?

Yeah best this is your last reply since you are clearly not equipped to back up your shit tier opinions with anything resembling manga fact. Send AK or someone who at least has a brain that resembles someone older than 18.

*'You are really stupid,I can give you that.'*

Pity you can't prove that with any sort of reasoning. Then again it's apparent you must have failed whatever philosophy 101 course you attended.



barreltheif said:


> Like all the other "extended" fights in the marineford arc (Vista vs Mihawk, Doffy vs Jozu, Jozu vs Aokiji, WB vs Akainu, etc.), Akainu vs the commanders lasted only a chapter. A chapter doesn't imply a long time. Chapters in the MF arc only covered a few minutes each on average. 5 minutes is probably about right.



What? His commander fight lasted 5 pages at best.
These sequence of events:
-Akainu standing in front of commanders
-Law's ship appears
-Order given for backup to Akainu

are not comparable to the fights you indicated in time. I think we should differentiate between skirmishes like Aokiji vs WB and extended exchanges like Akainu vs WB.






barreltheif said:


> I didn't say anything about a 1 vs 1 fight. That was you. I asked you why Jozu wouldn't get distracted in this fight.


Because the circumstances of his distraction in the manga are not present?


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> Erm... I don't know what to say to this, It's true Marco can fight evenly with Akainu or Kizaru but like I said before for so many time he can't win it's a matter of time how long he will last and I know it was long because of he's DF and for the rest of the commanders like you said they can standstill but that's how far they can go they can't beat the Admirals. You make a match up also in which, Marco vs Akainu, Katakuri vs Kizaru, Jozu vs Ishoo, now if you look at that match up like you said they can stalemate but I am having a hard time believing what you stated cause in my POV Admirals will win that and Add Cracker it was an equal both sides(Although my guts still tell me the Admirals can win this). And you call my opinion just pure fan fiction trash so what's the point right? In respect to you that's why I bother to give my opinion again since you take your time explaining your side and people always have different opinion you have yours and I have mine. It just that I never call your post pure fan fiction instead an opinion and once again this is just my opinion on this thread: the Commanders vs the Admirals and my take on power scaling are Yonko>Admirals>Commanders.


Why are you acting like his healing factor is somehow a ticking timebomb or something, it's something he has OVER them. When his healing factor is done, he'll still be at 100% like how they started the fight. 

If this was marco, jozu, and katakuri then maybe you'd have a point, but cracker being added on will make that admiral who is double teamed lose quickly and then it is 4 v 2. 
Are you ignoring the fact that Cracker is also in this fight?

No, adding Cracker doesn't make it equal both side. Jozu and Doflamingo together would beat an admiral, Cracker is stronger than Doflamingo. 

How is Jozu and Cracker together beating an admiral pretty easily fan fiction? It'd be fan fiction to say they don't stomp theri admiral then 4 v 2 the rest. 

Yonkou > Marco > Normal Yonkou First Mate = Jozu = Admiral > Rest of the commanders

Marco has the physical advantage over any admiral due to being a zoan. He proved this by overpowering Kizaru physically.
Marco has flight, Kizaru can kind of fly but only floating by making himself light.
Marco can beat anyone he can keep up with in a fight because they won't be doing any more damage than him really, so while they are slowly getting hurt (top tiers are tanks besides Cracker, it took 10 days for akainu to beat aokiji), Marco will be able to heal up. They'll also slowly get weaker since they'll be more damaged as the fight goes by, he'll have beaten the opponent by the time his healing reaches it's peak and he'll be at 100% still. 

Not sure how Jozu doesn't absolutely match or beat Ishoo alone, Ishoo can't gravity crush him since Jozu is a physical monster. Jozu would have the advantage up close and Ishoo isn't a good enough swordsman to cut diamond (mihawk arguably isn't). And the kenbunshoku will only get Ishoo so far. Also the large scale gravity attacks where he drops meteors and giant landmasses, well honestly Jozu might struggle with the latter but he'd power through the meteors pretty easily and he'd probably be able to just outright power lift the stuff thrown at him. 

But yeah, the main argument here is Marco, people act like Marco's healing is some sort of weakness, no, while his opponent won't be healing, he will be, that's an addition to his power, ie a top tier zoan user with flight and powerful haki.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Akainu alone vs all of the commanders lasted less than a chapter. No one disputes that. I was correcting your mistaken claim that Akainu had half of the marines fighting alongside him. He didn't. They arrived in the next chapter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Akainu literally confronted the commanders at the end of the previous chapter.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 7, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> >convoluted and outlandish response
> >extensive amount of mental gymnastics
> >proved absolutely nothing
> 
> ...


We get to learn something everyday ! Or at least as a new member, I do..you are used to this shit


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> The commanders win this. Any one of those commanders can stall an admiral. Add an extra one and he tips the balance of whatever fight he joins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did any commander hold off an admiral?You say that as if one commander was giving an admiral a pretty serious workout.All I can see is admirals walking out of confrontations with commanders without so much as a scratch on them while commanders need medics and people to help them out.



> Just because Marco didn't do noticeable damage to an admiral doesn't mean he can't beat one


hmm...I wonder how can a person with no hax ability to bypass opponent defense defeat a person without doing noticeable damage. You seem like the expert here,do tell how do you do it?



> Akainu and Aokiji fought for 10 days but somehow Marco is expected to bruise them right off the bat.


I think they took extended breaks in between their fights,right? I mean,if aokiji doubled over in pain from akainu's hit,akainu would probably call a doc,let aokiji heal and once aokiji was fit as a fiddle,they would restart the battle after having a lovely dinner with some beers. I mean how could they continue fighting for 10 days when they were both logias and you need COA to hit,which has a limit.How could it be that fights like lucci vs luffy be so intense and end in several moments,or the marineford war end in less than a day but some weak ass people last 10 days of continous fighting to the point they change the climate of am island right?The 10 day fight in no way represents the tremendous stamina and abilities of the two top tier people in OP,its just some rubbish people say. /S


And for your info,no,sugar's hax still ain't doing shit to roger. Even if she touches him,Roger uses HH before the contract to put that little runt out.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Akainu literally confronted the commanders at the end of the previous chapter.



Yes, very good, you're learning. Akainu fought the commanders in the second half of 578 and the first half of 579. By the time the rest of the marines were reaching him, he was standing victorious over Curiel.


----------



## mr sean66 (Aug 7, 2017)

People often compare the admirals to the yonko.

and alot of people believe a yonko can solo their crew {which is a ridiculous opinion}

unless your talking about primebeard which is mostly just hype.

im not suprised people say the admirals stomp.

i view them to be right below yonko level,

either slightly above first mates or on par with them.

id say the admirals have the advantage.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Yes, very good, you're learning. Akainu fought the commanders in the second half of 578 and the first half of 579. By the time the rest of the marines were reaching him, he was standing victorious over Curiel.


No, the whitebeard pirates making a line to when Sengoku called for backup was literally like 3 pages in reality.

Also Curiel is pretty much the bobbins of the crew. 

I have no problem to claim that Akainu can beat the shit out of the lower commanders, but so could Vito.
I don't think you're about to argue that Vito can beat Marco and Jozu together though.

The whitebeards lining up wasn't "we're all coming at you at once" anyway, it was "you're not getting through, we are symbolically stopping you and the other marines from getting at Luffy because we are trusting the future we wanted of Ace with him, Ace's little brother"
It was a symbolic thing to show that Luffy can draw allies and their bond with Ace and fulfilling his wishes, it was purely a plot point/a bit of symbolism. 

Sorry but Akainu gets low diffed by even Vista and Ace. Akainu can't beat 2 top tiers, even ones that come up weaker than him. Only yonkou have that level of power.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> fan fiction?



You're the one who call my post fan fiction, I don;t know what your talking about.



PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Why are you acting like his healing factor is somehow a ticking timebomb or something, it's something he has OVER them. When his healing factor is done, he'll still be at 100% like how they started the fight.



I respectfully disagree with you.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> You're the one who call my post fan fiction, I don;t know what your talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree with you.


Marco can hang with Kizaru without healing.
Adding a healing factor isn't a negative, it's a positive. This isn't up to debate. Marco's healing factor isn't a negative aspect.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco can hang with Kizaru without healing.
> Adding a healing factor isn't a negative, it's a positive. This isn't up to debate. Marco's healing factor isn't a negative aspect.



I don't deny that, it just Akainu offense was so lethal.


----------



## Kai (Aug 7, 2017)

Admirals should generally be above Yonko commanders; now how the Yonko themselves are on a different level to the Admiral is most people may agree that a Yonko would beat their top commanders simultaneously. Most people in here probably wouldn't vouch for an Admiral beating Karakuri, Smoothie, and Cracker simultaneously for example.

None of them are beating Marco, Jozu, and Vista at the same time that's for sure.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> I don't deny that, it just Akainu offense was so lethal.


Marco has shown the ability to clash with Akainu multiple times.
Marco is a zoan, a zoan who can fly, people ignore the fact that due to being a zoan, he'd have an advantage in cqc.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 7, 2017)

Kai said:


> Admirals should generally be above Yonko commanders; now how the Yonko themselves are on a different level to the Admiral is most people may agree that a Yonko would beat their top commanders simultaneously. Most people in here probably wouldn't vouch for an Admiral beating Karakuri, Smoothie, and Cracker simultaneously for example.
> 
> None of them are beating Marco, Jozu, and Vista at the same time that's for sure.


Marco > Admiral = Jozu > Thatch > Vista > Ace
Ace can hang with an admiral but of course loses.

Vista and Ace together can probably beat an admiral with mid diff.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Kai (Aug 7, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco > Admiral


Marco got outright punked by an old Garp. There's no excuse for that.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 7, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco > Admiral = Jozu > Thatch > Vista > Ace
> Ace can hang with an admiral but of course loses.
> Vista and Ace together can probably beat an admiral with mid diff.



Ace >>> admirals > Marco = Vista > Ace > admirals = Jozu = Thatch >>> Marco.
See, I can randomly order characters too.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Ace >>> admirals > Marco = Vista > Ace > admirals = Jozu = Thatch >>> Marco.
> See, I can randomly order characters too.


Lol. I think you missed bellamy near Ace there

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Gohara (Aug 8, 2017)

@ zoro.

-Apoo stopped running for a bit and reacted to the Light of Kizaru's travel and even basically says a sentence while Kizaru is travelling. If Kizaru were literally able to travel at the speed of light he would be able to travel around Earth many times before Apoo could say that sentence.

-I know that but that also suggests that Doflamingo allowed Aokiji to do that because Aokiji had told him if he tried to do that he would freeze him. That Doflamingo chose to do that anyways suggests that he doesn't care about Aokiji freezing him. If Doflamingo thought that Aokiji was capable of one shotting him his character obviously wouldn't have done that. Even if Doflamingo is around Admiral level he would still have to consider the possibility that Aokiji can win that match up or at least that the match up would take a long time and allow the protagonists to invade Dressrosa Island. Plus the other Marines could go tell The World Government about The Smileys Devil Fruits while Doflamingo is matching up against Aokiji. So not only would Doflamingo have to consider the possibility of Aokiji winning that match up but the match up itself would basically be pointless and allow the protagonists to have significant advantages.

-I agree about Mihawk being the most powerful Shichibukai but there's no rule that only 1 Shichibukai can be around Admiral+ level.  I actually do think that Infinite Gear 4th Luffy is more powerful than the Admirals with only characters like Garp, Kong, and the Fleet Admirals being able to match up on par with or in some cases defeat that version of Luffy's character.

-I consider most 2nd and 3rd Division Commanders to be around the same level. So even if, for example, Lord Cracker is comparable to an Admiral it doesn't necessarily mean that I think that Lady Smoothie is > the Admirals. Assuming that Lady Smoothie is > Lord Cracker. We haven't seen much of Lady Smoothie's character on screen yet so I'm hesitant to rank her character until we see her in main match ups. However I do think that Lord Cracker is at least around or close to Admiral level- although I like to think that the Admirals are generally more powerful than Lord Cracker even if only somewhat- and that Lord Katakuri is around Admiral level.

-I don't think that the Admirals are around the same level as Whitebeard's character. Even an ill and battle worn Old Whitebeard at the time matches up on par with if not bests Pre Time Skip Akainu who I consider to be exceptional even for an Admiral. So I consider a fully healthy Old Whitebeard to be at least a level above the Admirals. Also, the scene that you're referring to is a physical strength feat. In terms of physical strength Big Mam's character might be multiple leagues above most top Yonkou Commanders but that doesn't necessarily mean that Big Mam's character is multiple leagues above most top Yonkou Commanders in terms of overall power.

-I don't disagree that Rayleigh taught Luffy how to use Haki partially so he could land Techniques on Logia Devil Fruit Users consistently. However Rayleigh specifically states that it would be pointless for Luffy to go to The New World if an invasion like the one on Sabaody can prevent them from going to The New World. So Rayleigh allowing Luffy to go to The New World suggests that he thinks that an invasion like the one at Sabaody wouldn't be able to do that to the protagonists. If Kizaru is still a level and/or a league above Luffy then how would the protagonists be able to hold their own against an invasion that includes significantly more than just Kizaru several Arcs prior to where the series is currently?

-Again I don't agree with your interpretation of Lord Katakuri's reaction. I don't disagree that Big Mam's character is a level above most top Yonkou Commanders but that doesn't necessarily mean that for example Lord Katakuri's character couldn't give an average Yonkou at least mid to high difficulty in a match up. As for Lady Smoothie's character, her character has no reason to let herself get defeated by Big Mam's character. What would Lady Smoothie's character be fighting for in that scenario? If all of the top Yonkou Commanders were standing next to each other and they were defending a cause that they think is important then their characters' reactions would arguably be different. Besides, we've seen many confrontations between top Yonkou Commander level characters and Admirals, and most if not all of them are relatively equal and in some cases even in favor of the top Yonkou Commander level characters. If a top Yonkou Commander level character is reacting that way towards a Yonkou character it just gives me more reason to consider the Yonkou to be more powerful than the Admirals.

-Not necessarily. If the Admirals as a force matched up against any other Marine Rank they would win. There aren't 3 Fleet Admirals at the same time and 1 Fleet Admiral isn't defeating 3 Admirals. So as a force the Admirals can be more powerful but that doesn't make them more powerful individually as well. Plus it would be contradictory if having the Rank of Admiral suggests that characters are more powerful than any other Marine since we know that the Admirals aren't more powerful than Garp, Kong, the Fleet Admirals, etc.. I agree that the Admirals are some of the most powerful individuals in The Marines but there's no rule that the Admirals have to be around Yonkou level when there are other top ranked Marines such as Garp, Kong, the Fleet Admirals, etc.. Besides who else in The World Government are going to match up against the top Yonkou Commanders if not the Admirals?

Either way I respect your views.  The Admirals are very impressive so I can see why you rank them very highly even if we disagree on their exact rankings.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 8, 2017)

Gohara said:


> -Apoo stopped running for a bit and reacted to the Light of Kizaru's travel and even basically says a sentence while Kizaru is travelling. If Kizaru were literally able to travel at the speed of light he would be able to travel around Earth many times before Apoo could say that sentence.



I think the best example to this is X-Drake.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Aug 8, 2017)

12zoro said:


> When did any commander hold off an admiral?You say that as if one commander was giving an admiral a pretty serious workout.All I can see is admirals walking out of confrontations with commanders without so much as a scratch on them while commanders need medics and people to help them out.
> 
> 
> hmm...I wonder how can a person with no hax ability to bypass opponent defense defeat a person without doing noticeable damage. You seem like the expert here,do tell how do you do it?



-Show me a panel of an admiral overpowering a commander without a distraction I'll wait. 
-Just because they have hax that can oneshot you when distracted doesn't mean they are stronger in a strict 1v1 scenario.
-If you can hit their intangible bodies then yes over the course of a few days fight it can add up to a victory. Especially when you are a Marco that can heal to 100%.




12zoro said:


> I think they took extended breaks in between their fights,right? I mean,if aokiji doubled over in pain from akainu's hit,akainu would probably call a doc,let aokiji heal and once aokiji was fit as a fiddle,they would restart the battle after having a lovely dinner with some beers. I mean how could they continue fighting for 10 days when they were both logias and you need COA to hit,which has a limit.How could it be that fights like lucci vs luffy be so intense and end in several moments,or the marineford war end in less than a day but some weak ass people last 10 days of continous fighting to the point they change the climate of am island right?The 10 day fight in no way represents the tremendous stamina and abilities of the two top tier people in OP,its just some rubbish people say. /S



fix this stream of consciousness garbage into something intelligible and I might reply to it.




12zoro said:


> And for your info,no,sugar's hax still ain't doing shit to roger. Even if she touches him,Roger uses HH before the contract to put that little runt out.



You are using a scenario where Roger is not distracted to prove that he wouldn't get oneshotted by a hax ability while distracted? 



Kai said:


> Marco got outright punked by an old Garp. There's no excuse for that.



Garp was the only one out of him, Aokiji, Kizaru and Akainu who managed to 'punk' Marco. That says more about Garp than anything. He might have lost strength in his older years but the man fought Roger, who was above the Yonko, who are above the Admirals. Unlike Rayleigh he remained active while being stronger than Rayleigh in the first place. The same Rayleigh that stalemated Kizaru after not having picked up a sword in 20 years.


----------



## Pocalypse (Aug 8, 2017)

3 strongest characters from the biggest military organization who have been keeping the seas stable for years and not getting stomped by the pirates cuz it's not easy to do (otherwise they would've done it) are suddenly going to get beat by the s_*econd rates*_ from a Yonkou crew

lel

Reactions: Like 7


----------



## Nox (Aug 8, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco > Admiral = Jozu > *Thatch* > Vista > Ace
> Ace can hang with an admiral but of course loses.
> 
> Vista and Ace together can probably beat an admiral with mid diff.



I've been reading the Japanese version of OP so I might behind. Though I am curious what feats does Thatch have?


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 8, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> -Show me a panel of an admiral overpowering a commander without a distraction I'll wait.


Akainu overpowering curiel,Akainu overpowering Ace. Read the manga.Then come and post your idiotic opinions here. You will find things which are shown and then you won't ask stupid questions like those.


> -Just because they have hax that can oneshot you when distracted doesn't mean they are stronger in a strict 1v1 scenario.
> -If you can hit their intangible bodies then yes over the course of a few days fight it can add up to a victory. Especially when you are a Marco that can heal to 100%.


umm..They can Oneshot you. What the heck do commanders have that can kill an admiral? give me panel evidence. I'll wait.
When hitting their intangible bodies has shown to have no effect on them -Case in point kizaru vs marco or Akainu vs marco,you have little evidence to suggest over a period of time it will work. Stop bullshitting and downplaying and show panel evidence of it if you can.Especially when we know COA has a limit as stated by Law.Prove commanders can continue using it "over a course of few days" 



> fix this stream of consciousness garbage into something intelligible and I might reply to it.


Yeah,I was just thinking that the original post may be too sarcasm heavy for someone like you. Let me dumb it down for you.
Akainu and Aokiji are logias. They still continued to fight for 10 days straight. No, they did not take any extended breaks in between so that the other could heal. Since they are logias,they need haki to hit each other. That feat of them using haki over the course of 10 days is waay greater than anything that has been said about the commanders use of COA. Compare it to the current levels of crap COA G4 luffy can use for a limited time(and still have enough to knock a commander out),it is a far greater showing than any.




> You are using a scenario where Roger is not distracted to prove that he wouldn't get oneshotted by a hax ability while distracted?


No, I am not. You said sugar can touch Roger when he is distracted. Okay,she freaking touched him and he turned into a toy,which got his attention that he freaking doesn't have arms and legs made of flesh anymore. Before the contract happens,he uses HH to knock sugar out.

Make out better scenarios to give examples of rather than those which make no sense.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kai (Aug 8, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Garp was the only one out of him, Aokiji, Kizaru and Akainu who managed to 'punk' Marco. That says more about Garp than anything. He might have lost strength in his older years but the man fought Roger, who was above the Yonko, who are above the Admirals. Unlike Rayleigh he remained active while being stronger than Rayleigh in the first place. The same Rayleigh that stalemated Kizaru after not having picked up a sword in 20 years.


Not sure where you at all disagree with my post.

The man erroneously claimed "Marco > Admiral" which is false considering he got punked by Old Garp who is a VA on the Admiral level even while old.


----------



## Vermilion Kn (Aug 8, 2017)

NOX said:


> I've been reading the Japanese version of OP so I might behind. Though I am curious what feats does Thatch have?



Thatch died before he ate the yami yami no mi. He has no feats and 1 panel in the entire manga.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 8, 2017)

NOX said:


> I've been reading the Japanese version of OP so I might behind. Though I am curious what feats does Thatch have?


 0 feats

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 8, 2017)

Never understood the admiral downplay when there casual shit has been shown to be consistently  >> yonko comanders and in general are still  2nd to whitebeards feats at least until Oda decides to give the yonko some actual feats.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 8, 2017)

NOX said:


> I've been reading the Japanese version of OP so I might behind. Though I am curious what feats does Thatch have?



What!? You're telling me you're not following the Bhutanese version of OP which is 3 years ahead of Oda's Japanese version?

Which has an Edo Tensei'd Thatch and a rejuvenated Marco & Jozu defeating the other Yonkou and Akainu's marines, conquering the Grand Line and becoming the new rulers of the seas?

Why else do you think the likes of PwnGoat and Seraphoenix hold the opinions that they do?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 8


----------



## Captain Altintop (Aug 8, 2017)

Holy cow, never expected this thread to be on high fire. I knew the majority would vote for C3.

I add a bonus scenario here via editing, Team YC: Marco, Jozu, Katakuri, Cracker *and Doflamingo.
*
Even DD is no YC, he's compared to the No.3 like Jozu and Cracker. And on top of that, we still have a symmetric  and fair matchup with 2 of WB, 2 of BM and 1 of RS ... I don't like 3 YC's of one Yonko-Crew. Since we don't have any feats from current Shanks and BB crew, I chose DD here.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 8, 2017)

Lord Katakuri and Marco match up on par with if not defeat Aokiji and Kizaru. Marco's portrayal is at least comparable to if not somewhat superior to Kizaru's so far. Lord Katakuri doesn't yet seem to be any weaker than Marco but even if so they would at least match up on par with the Admirals. No way is Akainu defeating Doflamingo, Jozu, and Lord Cracker combined in my opinion. Doflamingo doesn't seem to fear the Admirals at all and has a comparable skill set as the Admirals so even if the Admirals are more powerful than Doflamingo, which in most cases is unproven, they would only be somewhat more powerful than Doflamingo's character. The same mostly goes for Jozu who prior to distractions has matched up on par with Aokiji although I do give the Admirals an edge over Jozu overall. The same also goes for Lord Cracker who is seemingly at least around Doflamingo's level of power.

“3 strongest characters from the biggest military organization”

3 of the top 4 and in some cases 5 most powerful Marines. With there still being other comparably powerful characters throughout The World Government and The Shichibukai.

“and not getting stomped by the pirates”

Aside from what I said above this reasoning can also be used against the Admirals. If the Admirals are around Yonkou level there are 6-7 Yonkou level characters in The World Government at The Marineford War Arc alone. Which begs the question of how 1 Yonkou Crew held their own to say the least and why anyone had any fear of matching up against a 2nd Yonkou Crew consecutively? Which also begs the question of how The World Government doesn't generally own the Yonkou when there are also other Yonkou level characters in The World Government outside of just the ones in The Marineford War Arc? Which also begs the question of why the entire Universe freaks out when 2 Yonkou are around the same area when apparently 7-8+ Yonkou level characters are consistently around The Marine Headquarters? It also begs a lot of other questions but either way that reasoning can actually be used against the Admirals a lot more than it can the Yonkou.

“s_*econd rates*_ from a Yonkou crew”

If the top Yonkou Commanders are second rates just because they're ranked second to the Yonkou then it can also be thrown out that the Admirals are ranked second in The Marines and fourth in The World Government. I would call neither the top Yonkou Commanders nor the Admirals second rates. They're all some of the most powerful characters in their organizations.

“Never understood the admiral downplay when there casual shit has been shown to be consistently >> yonko comanders”

How do you figure that when every top Yonkou Commander level character vs. Admiral confrontation so far has either been equal and in some cases even in favor of the top Yonkou Commander level characters? So far the only time the Admirals have the favor in those confrontations is if you include after the Yonkou Commanders are distracted and the Admirals land Techniques on them from behind. The top Yonkou Commander level characters matching up on par with the Admirals is basically the definition of consistent so far.


----------



## Kai (Aug 8, 2017)

That's like saying Sabo is a "second rate" Revolutionary when we know this guy is going to be Admiral level once he masters the Mera Mera no Mi, including "Awakening."

And he's No. 2 of the Revolutionary Army.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## zoro (Aug 8, 2017)

I see a lot of "admiral dowplay" thrown around but when Zoro's matched with a first mate and beats him after an extreme diff fight two hundred chapters from now I'd like to see how highly the same people will talk of first mates. It's not admiral downplay it's just not thinking about yonko first mates as pushovers like most of this section does

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> That's like saying Sabo is a "second rate" Revolutionary when we know this guy is going to be Admiral level once he masters the Mera Mera no Mi, including "Awakening."
> 
> And he's No. 2 of the Revolutionary Army.



Comparing Sabo with Crackers & the likes. 



Gyro said:


> I see a lot of "admiral dowplay" thrown around but when Zoro's matched with a first mate and beats him after an extreme diff fight two hundred chapters from now I'd like to see how highly the same people will talk of first mates. It's not admiral downplay it's just not thinking about yonko first mates as pushovers like most of this section does



How many fights Zoro will engage in or how many new moves will he learn in between those 200 chapters? 

Seeing how Katakuri, Smoothie & the rest are freaking afraid of Big Meme I don't think they are pushover at all.Kappa


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 8, 2017)

Gyro said:


> I see a lot of "admiral dowplay" thrown around but when Zoro's matched with a first mate and beats him after an extreme diff fight two hundred chapters from now I'd like to see how highly the same people will talk of first mates. It's not admiral downplay it's just not thinking about yonko first mates as pushovers like most of this section does



And this means what exactly ?


----------



## Kai (Aug 8, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Comparing Sabo with Crackers & the likes.


No one said that. But comparing Sabo to be in a similar ballpark as someone like Jack, Katakuri (assuming he is the strongest of the three sweets) and eventually Marco seems to be the most balanced interpretation of the OP power dynamics right?

I expect him to reach Marco's level in his prime, if not slightly higher. And it's doubtful Cracker is the strongest of the sweet commanders; to simplify the terms he would be the "Jozu" or "Vista" of the BM crew.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> No one said that. But comparing Sabo to be in a similar ballpark as someone like Jack, Katakuri (assuming he is the strongest of the three sweets) and eventually Marco seems to be the most balanced interpretation of the OP power dynamics right?
> 
> I expect him to reach Marco's level in his prime, if not slightly higher.



At this moment? Yes. 

I do think Sabo ~ Jozu before he obtained Mera fruit. Currently Marco > Mera Sabo > Jozu. 

But in EOS? He will be legit top tier (Yonko/Admiral) level imo.


----------



## zoro (Aug 8, 2017)

Sakazuki said:


> And this means what exactly ?



That when it'll fit people's narratives, first mates will be able to give a very tough fight to admirals and two of them will be able to murk one. Because I'm sure that by the time the Strawhats face a yonko crew by themselves nobody will argue that 2 Zoros can't kill one admiral


----------



## Kai (Aug 8, 2017)

What I seem to see, from an objective standpoint is there is a lot of changing to fit the narrative from the Admirals=Yonko camp when it comes to first mates/commander, and I'm referring specifically to what they call exceptions to the rule.

For example, in the eyes of the Admirals=Yonko camp: Rayleigh and Zoro, who are first mates, have and respectfully will be Admiral level because they are "exceptions to the rule" as being PK's first mates. This exception has never been implied or exempt from other Yonko first mates  so there's some obvious narrative changing to fitting here. It gets bad enough that some people even extend this "exception" to Sabo because he is heavily plot relevant (not referring to you Sherlock).

So if a first mate/commander/No. 2 Revolutionary is at an Admiral level, they are exceptions because they are "special", but if they aren't then everything is in order and at no expense of cognitive dissonance

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> What I seem to see, from an objective standpoint is there is a lot of changing to fit the narrative from the Admirals=Yonko camp when it comes to first mates/commander, and I'm referring specifically to what they call exceptions to the rule.
> 
> For example, in the eyes of the Admirals=Yonko camp: Rayleigh and Zoro, who are first mates, have and respectfully will be Admiral level because they are "exceptions to the rule" as being PK's first mates. This exception has never been implied or exempt from other Yonko first mates  so there's some obvious narrative changing to fitting here. It gets bad enough that some people even extend this "exception" to Sabo because he is heavily plot relevant (not referring to you Sherlock).
> 
> So if a first mate/commander/No. 2 Revolutionary is at an Admiral level, they are exceptions because they are "special", but if they aren't then everything is in order and at no expense of cognitive dissonance


Sabo should definitely be higher than Marco eventually. Admiral level should be in his ballpark. Right now though,he should be weaker,a level below marco.

For the revolutionary army,their target is the marines directly. You saw how 1 yonkou crew compared to the marines. Any other yonkou crew is going to perform almost the same,with the exception of the yonkou himself doing more damage since he would not be that bad in shape.So for them(RA) to challenge the marines,their number 2 has to be at least on the level of the strongest marines force otherwise they are getting murked.

Similarly , Roger was the Pirate king,not the yonkou.Luffy is the eventual pirate king.They fall outside the power levels previously set forth by the 4 emperors since they(luffy) are going to get there by beating said yonkou.

Edit-Grammar


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 8, 2017)

Gyro said:


> That when it'll fit people's narratives, first mates will be able to give a very tough fight to admirals and two of them will be able to murk one. Because I'm sure that by the time the Strawhats face a yonko crew by themselves nobody will argue that 2 Zoros can't kill one admiral


You say that but where were Marco and Vista when poor Cruiel was getting fisted by Akainu? Distracted by the backup that Sengoku sent that at best maybe had like 2 or 3 vice admirals?  I thought you said the commanders could give admirals high dif, but if they couldn't even make it past marine fodder and vice admirals who should be fodder to the esteemed yonko commanders to help their fallen crew member how again can they be worthy of challenging an admiral or Yonko with out damn near getting foddered?


----------



## Kai (Aug 8, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Sabo should definitely be higher than Marco eventually. Admiral level should be in his ballpark. Right now though,he should be weaker,a level below marco.
> 
> For the revolutionary army,their target is the marines directly. You saw how 1 yonkou crew compared to the marines. Any other yonkou crew is going to perform almost the same,with the exception of the yonkou himself doing more damage since he would not be that bad in shape.So for them(RA) to challenge the marines,their number 2 has to be at least on the level of the strongest marines force otherwise they are getting murked.
> 
> ...


Yeah, not buying it brother. When you can provide more examples of exceptions over what is supposed to be the norm, then we have a problem.


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> What I seem to see, from an objective standpoint is there is a lot of changing to fit the narrative from the Admirals=Yonko camp when it comes to first mates/commander, and I'm referring specifically to what they call exceptions to the rule.
> 
> For example, in the eyes of the Admirals=Yonko camp: Rayleigh and Zoro, who are first mates, have and respectfully will be Admiral level because they are "exceptions to the rule" as being PK's first mates. This exception has never been implied or exempt from other Yonko first mates  so there's some obvious narrative changing to fitting here. It gets bad enough that some people even extend this "exception" to Sabo because he is heavily plot relevant (not referring to you Sherlock).
> 
> So if a first mate/commander/No. 2 Revolutionary is at an Admiral level, they are exceptions because they are "special", but if they aren't then everything is in order and at no expense of cognitive dissonance



How isn't Rayleigh the exception to the rule ? He is the only FM with CoC,a guy who has been spoken off in the same breath as WB himself.Now compare that with the other FMs.Wait they have nothing on that.Sabo is the guy with the same potential with freaking Ace and Luffy.Still a thing that the other FMs don't have.

Also I'd like to note out that yes,there is an extreme downplay of the Admirals yet.Not only people forget how they have been represented as the Yonko equivalent,not only do they have the best feats in the series alongside the Yonko but people also forget what Chinjao said and what Carmel said about Big Mom.Oda is quite simple when it comes to some things.People also forget the effort Oda has put with the Admirals in terms of designs.They are based on freaking legendary Japanese actors,icons of the country Oda comes from.They are much more important than the FMs that people are trying to compare them to.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> For example, in the eyes of the Admirals=Yonko camp: Rayleigh and Zoro, who are first mates, have and respectfully will be Admiral level because they are "exceptions to the rule" as being PK's first mates. *This exception has never been implied or exempt from other Yonko first mates  so there's some obvious narrative changing to fitting here.*



Don't know what manga you're reading but come back when we get panels of Rayleigh calling Roger "pops" or being treated like a child by him.

If you prefer to see a more feat based example of this try Rayleigh being able to injure & delay an Admiral given a free opening (Kizaru's cut on the cheek when he pursued Zoro's group) vs Marco (with Vista) being able to do jack shit to Akainu. The difference in portrayals was stark there.

And if the first mate of the PK, literally by definition the strongest pirate (if not outright person) around, and the future PK aren't clear exceptional cases then I don't know what is?

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Kai (Aug 8, 2017)

Rayleigh is awesome for going toe to toe with Admiral Kizaru despite not picking up a sword let alone fighting with it in a couple decades. We give Rayleigh praise for that, and rightfully so.

Now. Can you even fathom Oda giving one of the Yonko that treatment? Going toe to toe with a Yonko despite not picking up a sword in two decades?

It's like one can't give the opinion of some first mates/commanders fighting evenly with Admirals without it being perceived as downplay, disrespecting, or hating on the Admirals 



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Don't know what manga you're reading but come back when we get panels of Rayleigh calling Roger "pops" or being treated like a child by him.


Don't know what manga you're reading but WB and BM are the only crews that are confirmed to have that relationship as we explore the dynamics of their crew.

As far as we're aware Shanks and Teach's crew don't have those relationships. Kaido's crew is still a mystery at large.



			
				Admiral Kizaru said:
			
		

> If you prefer to see a more feat based example of this try Rayleigh being able to injure & delay an Admiral given a free opening (Kizaru's cut on the cheek when he pursued Zoro's group) vs Marco (with Vista) being able to do jack shit to Akainu. The difference in portrayals was stark there.


This reinforces my point even further. Oda would never treat a Yonko as going toe to toe with someone who hasn't picked up a sword in two decades. No one.


----------



## zoro (Aug 8, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> You say that but where were Marco and Vista when poor Cruiel was getting fisted by Akainu? Distracted by the backup that Sengoku sent that at best maybe had like 2 or 3 vice admirals?  I thought you said the commanders could give admirals high dif, but if they couldn't even make it past marine fodder and vice admirals who should be fodder to the esteemed yonko commanders to help their fallen crew member how again can they be worthy of challenging an admiral or Yonko with out damn near getting foddered?



What was Fuji doing when Sabo was destroying half of his platoon and Bastille, his second in command? 

answer is: clusterfucks


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> Yeah, not buying it brother. When you can provide more examples of exceptions over what is supposed to be the norm, then we have a problem.


Which part is exception?Are you saying that Prime whitebeard is equal to old whitebeard? Because if not,you basically know Roger is better than the current 4 yonkous(WB is the current yonkou level). Luffy going after kaidou is what we are seeing now.Even if that is not a 1vs1 fight,his fight with BB is definitely going to be 1vs1. He is going to be the pirate king *after *he defeats these people.So he already proves he is superior to them.

And since the RA is in no way associated with the yonkou or the marines or the shichibukai,you cannot really compare their members on the same principle of "first mates" and such can you?


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> Now. Can you even fathom Oda giving one of the Yonko that treatment? Going toe to toe with a Yonko despite not picking up a sword in two decades?



Quite literally yes. 

If you think a retired WB would get easily overpowered by Shanks or not be able hold his own for while to successfully delay him then you're deluded.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 8, 2017)

Gyro said:


> What was Fuji doing when Sabo was destroying half of his platoon and Bastille, his second in command?
> 
> answer is: clusterfucks


And yet he eventually came and fought him did Marco and Vista run up on Akainu again?


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> What I seem to see, from an objective standpoint is there is a lot of changing to fit the narrative from the Admirals=Yonko camp when it comes to first mates/commander, and I'm referring specifically to what they call exceptions to the rule.
> 
> For example, in the eyes of the Admirals=Yonko camp: Rayleigh and Zoro, who are first mates, have and respectfully will be Admiral level because they are "exceptions to the rule" as being PK's first mates. This exception has never been implied or exempt from other Yonko first mates  so there's some obvious narrative changing to fitting here. It gets bad enough that some people even extend this "exception" to Sabo because he is heavily plot relevant (not referring to you Sherlock).
> 
> So if a first mate/commander/No. 2 Revolutionary is at an Admiral level, they are exceptions because they are "special", but if they aren't then everything is in order and at no expense of cognitive dissonance



Rayleigh, Zoro & Sabo are exception to the rule specifically because Oda portrayed them that way. 

Ray is user of all 3 hakis, hyped by Garp, fighting Kizaru (no matter for how short period of time) after 20 years of retirement, marine knowing his existence & location still not touching him. 

I consider Mihawk to be a top tier. So Zoro who will beat him is obviously going to be one. 

And Sabo who has been brought up & trained by Dragon, same level as Ace & plot relevance allows him the benefit of the doubt. 

You can't extend that to all, every first mates. 

Katakuri was scared shitless of Big Meme. They even mentioned that Big Meme would solo her whole crew. 

Marco? If he was a top tier then he would have become one already. His relevance is basically helping Luffy reach his goals. 

Beckman? We don't know anything about how strong he is. We just know that Kizaru trolled him hard. 

Will Shiryuu be a top tier? Depends. Is he going to beat someone of that level? Will he beat Mihawk? If so, then yes. He also has the importance as one of Zoro's final or second last opponent.

Is it possible some Vice Admirals are top tiers? I don't think so. 

But at this moment I would argue if Oda ever makes Vice Admiral Tokikake & Gion canon then they should be at least FM level. 



Inconsistent?

Honestly speaking in last 8 years my tier list remained same. I still haven't seen any major points or plot from Oda that made me change it. But if I do then it's because Oda suddenly has given a specific FM or commander too much plot importance to change that. 

Cognitive dissonance? No. Tier list is a living thing. It progresses, changes at the whim of Oda. For example , if Green Bull suddenly comes & beat up Big Meme then out of 10 Yonko>Admiral group at least 4 will change their position to Yonko=Admiral.


----------



## zoro (Aug 8, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> And yet he eventually came and fought him did Marco and Vista run up on Akainu again?



You mean in the ten seconds between the moment Sakazuki burned Curiel and the one when Coby+Shanks stopped the war? No, no they did not


----------



## zoro (Aug 8, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Katakuri was scared shitless of Big Meme. They even mentioned that Big Meme would solo her whole crew.



I'll take things that never happened for 500


----------



## Dellinger (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai is again looking at this in the wrong way.Kizaru was getting the better of Rayleigh in swordsmanship and we damn well know that Kizaru's main forte isn't about swinging a sword.


----------



## Kai (Aug 8, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Quite literally yes.
> 
> If you think a retired WB would get easily overpowered by Shanks or not be able hold his own for while to successfully delay him then you're deluded.


Of course I don't. But Kizaru told Rayleigh that he was going toe to toe with a Marine Admiral, and yet still had part of his focus on the SH's dealing with Kuma.

So my point is old Rayleigh simply holding his own and successfully delaying was not what was said in how he was faring vs. an Admiral. At least that was not the extent or limitation of how he was faring, not according to Kizaru. That's what Jimbei does. No, according to Kizaru Rayleigh was going toe to toe with a Marine Admiral. That's evident in him actively stopping Yata no Kagami and cutting Kizaru's cheek.

Despite not picking up a sword in two decades.



Sakazuki said:


> Kai is again looking at this in the wrong way.Kizaru was getting the better of Rayleigh in swordsmanship and we damn well know that Kizaru's main forte isn't about swinging a sword.


This narrative is false according to Kizaru. Kizaru says Rayleigh is going 'toe to toe' with a Marine Admiral.


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 8, 2017)

Gyro said:


> I'll take things that never happened for 500



Yes, my mistake.

It was stated that her whole crew had no way to stop Meme. They foresaw the destruction of the island & Katakuri cautioned that no one knows what will happen after that.

For example, knocking her out isn't an option probably cause they can't do it? Even though she is killing their siblings left & right? Nonetheless it didn't inspire confidence.


----------



## Nox (Aug 8, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> 0 feats





Vermilion Kn said:


> Thatch died before he ate the yami yami no mi. He has no feats and 1 panel in the entire manga.



It's good to know I am not the only one reading Japanese OP. I too remember Thatch's feats being dying to BB.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> What!? You're telling me you're not following the Bhutanese version of OP which is 3 years ahead of Oda's Japanese version?
> 
> Which has an Edo Tensei'd Thatch and a rejuvenated Marco & Jozu defeating the other Yonkou and Akainu's marines, conquering the Grand Line and becoming the new rulers of the seas?
> 
> Why else do you think the likes of PwnGoat and Seraphoenix hold the opinions that they do?



Elements of Bleach, a touch of Naruto, all Fairy Tales.


----------



## Pocalypse (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> That's like saying Sabo is a "second rate" Revolutionary when we know this guy is going to be Admiral level once he masters the Mera Mera no Mi, including "Awakening."
> 
> And he's No. 2 of the Revolutionary Army.



I never said Sabo was second rate.

For starters he's far more important than any first mate or other Yonkou commanders including the likes of Jozu, Cracker, Katakuri or whatever. Then he also has Ace's fruit. That development isn't gonna go to vain because he's gonna train the shit out of it and be legit top tier come EoS. I currently put Sabo higher than any Yonkou commander apart from Marco but once Sabo masters it (which doesn't mean we have to wait until EoS), he'll be above Marco.

So it's fine to make him the exception along with Rayleigh.


----------



## zoro (Aug 8, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Yes, my mistake.
> 
> It was stated that her whole crew had no way to stop Meme. They foresaw the destruction of the island & Katakuri cautioned that no one knows what will happen after that.
> 
> For example, knocking her out isn't an option probably cause they can't do it? Even though she is killing their siblings left & right? Nonetheless it didn't inspire confidence.



Look at what happened when Kuzan and Sakazuki fought, Punk Hazard was changed permanently. If Mom fought her strongest children of course the island would burn to the ground

As for the rest it really depends on how durable her body really is. If she legit can't be damaged at all then they're fucked, doesn't mean their general level is affected. They just can't hut her but nobody else can either. The manga will tell us


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 8, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Look at what happened when Kuzan and Sakazuki fought, Punk Hazard was changed permanently. If Mom fought her strongest children of course the island would burn to the ground



Mingo, Crackers. We know the extent of Yonko Commanders power & they aren't anywhere close to drastically changing the topography of an island 5 times bigger than MF. 

BM? Yes. Commanders? Still No. 



Gyro said:


> As for the rest it really depends on how durable her body really is. If she legit can't be damaged at all then they're fucked, doesn't mean their general level is affected. They just can't hut her but nobody else can either. The manga will tell us



Se would have been PK already if nobody could hurt her. 

And if Oda really tells us that nobody (including Yonko/Admirals) can't hurt her then I wait for Oda's shitty explanation.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## zoro (Aug 8, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Mingo, Crackers. We know the extent of Yonko Commanders power & they aren't anywhere close to drastically changing the topography of an island 5 times bigger than MF.
> 
> BM? Yes. Commanders? Still No.
> 
> ...



Doffy (who I'd say isn't as strong as the commanders, not quite) can destroy an island with bird cage and it's a passive ability, him just flexing crushed the bottom portion of the plateau. They can do that, they simply don't do it most of the time. And even if they did lack AoE they'd still be fighting Mom so yes, the island would get destroyed 


Well nobody can kill Kaido yet he's still not PK


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 8, 2017)

Sorry didn't realise you edited your previous post. 



Kai said:


> Don't know what manga you're reading but WB and BM are the only crews that are confirmed to have that relationship as we explore the dynamics of their crew.
> 
> As far as we're aware Shanks and Teach's crew don't have those relationships. Kaido's crew is still a mystery at large.



So at _least _two out of the five known Yonkou forces then?

And if you acknowledge this difference in dynamics and what it portends to, then why are you not factoring that in when evaluating Marco & Jozu in this clash? 

And what you're trying imply from this is disingenuous. On it's own this (having a different dynamic to Marco) isn't enough to state that Rayleigh and Zoro are exceptional, but that _*combined *_with all the other stuff (they special hype that they get, all three types of haki etc etc) is more than enough to elevate them. 




Kai said:


> This reinforces my point even further. Oda would never treat a Yonko as going toe to toe with someone who hasn't picked up a sword in two decades. No one.



Completely baseless. It's very easy to claim something like this when you know full well there's zero chance of a Yonkou ever being placed in a similar situation due to story reasons....... unless there's an unknown Admiral/Yonkou level figure who's been inactive for a similar period who suddenly makes an appearance during Wano or against Teach.

I mean I could write a dozen things based on some of the shitty portrayal BM has had in this arc to make a claim that Admirals > Yonkou

e.g. 

- Oda would never treat an Admiral to have them punked by half a SH crew, with one of his prized possession  (Red Poneglyph) essentially stolen by them 
- Oda would never treat an Admiral to have them so easily betrayed by close associates
- Oda would never treat an Admiral to have them humiliated in front of the most influential people in the NW

etc etc 



But I wouldn't because it would be breathtakingly short term and ignore the totality of the evidence so far.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> This narrative is false according to Kizaru. Kizaru says Rayleigh is going 'toe to toe' with a Marine Admiral.



No.

He stated that he was "holding of a Marine Admiral" ..... which is different to going "toe in toe", which implies far more equality.


_Rayleigh: *pant*... *pant*... It looks like they are having some serious trouble...!! / I would like to lend them my aid... but I'm not as young as I used to be... / *pant*
Kizaru: You're holding off a Marine Admiral and still you want more...? / Come now, please... you're embarrassing me here!_


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 8, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Ace >>> admirals > Marco = Vista > Ace > admirals = Jozu = Thatch >>> Marco.
> See, I can randomly order characters too.


Congrats, now adhere to my canon list.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 8, 2017)

Kai said:


> Marco got outright punked by an old Garp. There's no excuse for that.


Except that Garp being stronger than Akainu.
Garp is a whitebeard rival and he wasn't held back by a horrible sickness like Whitebeard was even before all the in marineford nerfs Whitebeard got before still beating Akainu.

Marco beats Akainu after a multi hour or day fight.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 8, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Never understood the admiral downplay when there casual shit has been shown to be consistently  >> yonko comanders and in general are still  2nd to whitebeards feats at least until Oda decides to give the yonko some actual feats.


You mean like hitting Marco when he was facing away and hitting Marco after another character put seastone on him?

"casual shit"

Big Mom has already proven she low to mid diffs even Akainu.

Sorry, Marco > Jozu = Admirals

Marco was beating Kizaru till bullshit.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 8, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You mean like hitting Marco when he was facing away and hitting Marco after another character put seastone on him?
> "casual shit"
> Big Mom has already proven she low to mid diffs even Akainu.
> Sorry, Marco > Jozu = Admirals
> Marco was beating Kizaru till bullshit.



Jozu is the big guy with the diamond skin. Kizaru is the guy with the lasers.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 8, 2017)

Captain Altintop said:


> Holy cow, never expected this thread to be on high fire. I knew the majority would vote for C3.
> 
> I add a bonus scenario here via editing, Team YC: Marco, Jozu, Katakuri, Cracker *and Doflamingo.
> *
> Even DD is no YC, he's compared to the No.3 like Jozu and Cracker. And on top of that, we still have a symmetric  and fair matchup with 2 of WB, 2 of BM and 1 of RS ... I don't like 3 YC's of one Yonko-Crew. Since we don't have any feats from current Shanks and BB crew, I chose DD here.


 With DD they'll win more often than not. Very close though



Kai said:


> What I seem to see, from an objective standpoint is there is a lot of changing to fit the narrative from the Admirals=Yonko camp when it comes to first mates/commander, and I'm referring specifically to what they call exceptions to the rule.
> 
> For example, in the eyes of the Admirals=Yonko camp: Rayleigh and Zoro, who are first mates, have and respectfully will be Admiral level because they are "exceptions to the rule" as being PK's first mates. This exception has never been implied or exempt from other Yonko first mates  so there's some obvious narrative changing to fitting here. It gets bad enough that some people even extend this "exception" to Sabo because he is heavily plot relevant (not referring to you Sherlock).
> 
> So if a first mate/commander/No. 2 Revolutionary is at an Admiral level, they are exceptions because they are "special", but if they aren't then everything is in order and at no expense of cognitive dissonance


 Zoro will be above, Rayleigh was above. Sabo may or not be admiral level.

Kaido > Akainu ~ Shanks > Aokiji > Big Mom ~ Fujitora ~ Kizaru

On average Yonkos are slightly > but they are definitely in the same tier


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 8, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Jozu is the big guy with the diamond skin. Kizaru is the guy with the lasers.


Jozu is the guy who has the greatest physical strength feat in the series and who can repel lasers with his devil fruit defense.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 8, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Jozu is the guy who has the greatest physical strength feat in the series and who can repel lasers with his devil fruit defense.



No, you might be thinking of Whitebeard? Though I doubt quakes can repel lasers.
Jozu is the big guy in these pictures.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Aug 8, 2017)

Anyone have a link to the chapter where Marco was beating Kizaru? I don't think it exists

Kizaru was trolling Marco, just like he did Beckman. Kizaru > every Yonko FM

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 8, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Jozu is the guy who has the greatest physical strength feat in the series and who can repel lasers with his devil fruit defense.


 Garp's feat is calced higher than that: Warrior of Light

That is Garp's 

And the post before is Jozu's 

Warrior of Light


----------



## Gohara (Aug 9, 2017)

I agree with Kai here. At most there's evidence that Rayleigh is the most powerful First Mate that we've seen so far. Roger is the Pirate King, so Rayleigh being King amongst First Mates seems reasonable, right? However there isn't really any evidence that there's a significant difference in power between Prime Rayleigh and most Yonkou First Mates. Unless being able to defeat the other Yonkou First Mates with mid to high (closer to high than mid) difficulty is considered a significant difference in power.

The thing is, though, even Old Rayleigh who hasn't had much in the way of match ups in multiple decades is still around Admiral level. Yet Old Rayleigh isn't second rate. I doubt that Old Rayleigh is => any of the Yonkou First Mates but at the very least there's no clear evidence that such is the case.

As for Whitebeard and Rayleigh being in the same sentence, I don't really understand that reasoning. If there were something in that sentence that clearly implies that both are around the same level of power I could understand the reasoning but simply appearing in the same sentence? I mean heck, Marco's character has appeared in the same sentence as the Yonkou. I'm sure if you read/watch the entire series fans will find countless sentences in which characters who are around different levels of power appear in the same sentences. Using being in the same sentence as an argument in that context seems like a non-sequitur.

As for Rayleigh knowing King's Haki, we have no idea who if any Yonkou First Mates know King's Haki, nor do we know if the Admirals know King's Haki. I mean if that reasoning is going to be used against top Yonkou Commander level characters simply because we have yet to see them use King's Haki then the same reasoning can also be used against the Admirals.

I also don't see what it matters what the Yonkou Commanders call their Leaders. That's simply about character dynamics and has nothing to do with level of power.

“Katakuri was scared shitless of Big Meme.”

Lord Katakuri hasn't shown to be that afraid of Big Mam's character.

“They even mentioned that Big Meme would solo her whole crew.”

Well I mean, just because the Yonkou Commanders don't want to risk their lives to match up against their own Leader doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't win if they really wanted to match up against Big Mam's character.

“Mingo, Crackers. We know the extent of Yonko Commanders power & they aren't anywhere close to drastically changing the topography of an island 5 times bigger than MF.”

Most of the Yonkou, Mihawk, and even some of the Admirals can't change the climate of an Island because they don't have Elemental Abilities. That doesn't necessarily mean that Akainu and Aokiji are more powerful than all of those characters. Doflamingo can destroy Islands with no less ease than the Admirals can and easier than Lord Cracker can. Yet Lord Cracker is seemingly at least around Doflamingo's level of power. Yet using your reasoning Doflamingo should be a level above Lord Cracker in terms of power, no?

“Oda would never treat an Admiral to have them punked by half a SH crew, with one of his prized possession (Red Poneglyph) essentially stolen by them”

What being punked entails and what Oda would do are subjective. Plus any fan can suggest that Luffy has punked The World Government multiple times with The World Government even hiding at least one of those things because they were embarrassed.

“Oda would never treat an Admiral to have them so easily betrayed by close associates”

Not only is that also subjective but I don't see what that has to do with level of power. Plus Vergo is one of the top Vice Admirals and he basically betrayed The World Government.

“Oda would never treat an Admiral to have them humiliated in front of the most influential people in the NW”

The World Government has had multiple executions that they spent a lot of planning on turned from being a victory for them to being a victory for Piracy not just with influential characters in The New World but literally around the whole world watching. A battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy even after being confronted by Admirals and even a Fleet Admiral freed Ace with a lot of influential characters watching. Not only is the idea of Big Mam's character being humiliated subjective but if that counts as humiliating a Yonkou then characters far weaker than the current protagonists have humiliated The World Government many times.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 9, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> No, you might be thinking of Whitebeard? Though I doubt quakes can repel lasers.
> Jozu is the big guy in these pictures.


1) Blindside, something that a million times have taken out other characters like squard hitting whitebeard who akainu was unable to hit, the yeti cool brothers beating zoro, etc etc.
2) Blindside

When you admit the yeti cool brothers and cc are stronger than zoro and luffy, then you can START to even consider arging that those things even matter in the grand scheme of power scale.

Jozu was matching Aokiji and that was the only hit he could land before that point.
Doflamingo held Jozu for only a few words of dialogue.

Jozu = Aokiji.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 9, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Blindside, something that a million times have taken out other characters like squard hitting whitebeard who akainu was unable to hit, the yeti cool brothers beating zoro, etc etc.
> 2) Blindside



What? No those are pictures of Jozu.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 9, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> What? No those are pictures of Jozu.


When Squard, The Yeti Cool Brothers, and CC are stronger than Whitebeard, Zoro, and Luffy, then those feats can matter.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 9, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Garp's feat is calced higher than that:
> 
> That is Garp's
> 
> And the post before is Jozu's


Seems like Jozu's is vastly above said feat, either way, Garp is > Admirals


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 9, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> When Squard, The Yeti Cool Brothers, and CC are stronger than Whitebeard, Zoro, and Luffy, then those feats can matter.



What feats? I posted two pictures of Jozu.


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 9, 2017)

Gyro said:


> You mean in the ten seconds between the moment Sakazuki burned Curiel and the one when Coby+Shanks stopped the war? No, no they did not



Now your assigning  time frames that weren't given in the manga guess Jozu vs Aokiji lasted about 30 seconds from the time Aokiji got blindsided to Jozu getting frozen. It ain't like we saw them actually attack each other and id say Whitebeard heart attack had to have come rather quick seeing as Oda gave marco vs Kizaru at least a few pages of them fighting as compared to what ultimately amounts to maybe a page in half worth of content for jozu vs aokiji but thats just my opinion like the 10 seconds between Cruiel getting fisted and shanks/coby's interference.


----------



## zoro (Aug 9, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Now your assigning  time frames that weren't given in the manga guess Jozu vs Aokiji lasted about 30 seconds from the time Aokiji got blindsided to Jozu getting frozen. It ain't like we saw them actually attack each other and id say Whitebeard heart attack had to have come rather quick seeing as Oda gave marco vs Kizaru at least a few pages of them fighting as compared to what ultimately amounts to maybe a page in half worth of content for jozu vs aokiji but thats just my opinion like the 10 seconds between Cruiel getting fisted and shanks/coby's interference.



You completely missed the point


----------



## Shanks (Aug 9, 2017)

you nerds got too much time on your hands.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 9, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> What feats? I posted two pictures of Jozu.


Both of which were due to blindside attacks that throughout one piece has resulted in characters vastly weaker than other characters outright winning like the yeti cool brothers on zoro and cc on luffy.

I'm arguing that they are the same strength and that jozu didn't beat aokiji in one hit cuz he doesn't have hax while aokiji doing that to jozu was pure hax and body mechanics in that he froze Jozu's arm both externally and internally so that no matter how much strength he had (jozu can easily break out of ice considering the strength feats he has), it wouldn't matter since his bones and muscles would be frozen solid. 
It's literally the only thing that makes sense and falls more in line with hax over overpowering him. Whitebeard would lose an arm if he fell for such an attack too.

In a normal encounter though Jozu could be able to repel this by turning said body part Aokiji tries to touch into diamond and coating his body in busoshoku hardening. He couldn't there though cuz he was hit when he wasn't focused on Aokiji at all. Also throw in the fact that Aokiji seems to only be able to do such a technique when he physically touches someone with his hand (doflamingo broke out cuz aokiji didn't touch him directly but sent an ice twig out that then froze doflamingo as a warning thing to get him from attacking smoker without killing him), and that Jozu has vastly superior physicals and is stronger in cqc, that means that Aokiji wouldn't ever be able to land that attack on Jozu under normal circumstances.
So they would standstill for hours if not days before one wins out.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 9, 2017)

Josh said:


> you nerds got too much time on your hands.


Less time is needed when we have already succeeded and aren't failures who have to earn our ways into careers and shit.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 9, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Both of which were due to blindside attacks that throughout one piece has resulted in characters vastly weaker than other characters outright winning like the yeti cool brothers on zoro and cc on luffy.
> 
> I'm arguing that they are the same strength and that jozu didn't beat aokiji in one hit cuz he doesn't have hax while aokiji doing that to jozu was pure hax and body mechanics in that he froze Jozu's arm both externally and internally so that no matter how much strength he had (jozu can easily break out of ice considering the strength feats he has), it wouldn't matter since his bones and muscles would be frozen solid.
> It's literally the only thing that makes sense and falls more in line with hax over overpowering him. Whitebeard would lose an arm if he fell for such an attack too.
> ...



I have no idea what you're talking about. I just posted two pictures of Jozu to make sure you weren't confusing him with some other character.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 9, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. I just posted two pictures of Jozu to make sure you weren't confusing him with some other character.


No you didn't.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 9, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> No you didn't.



Jozu is the big guy in these pictures.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 2


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 10, 2017)

Gyro said:


> Doffy (who I'd say isn't as strong as the commanders, not quite) can destroy an island with bird cage and it's a passive ability, him just flexing crushed the bottom portion of the plateau. They can do that, they simply don't do it most of the time. And even if they did lack AoE they'd still be fighting Mom so yes, the island would get destroyed
> 
> Well nobody can kill Kaido yet he's still not PK



While Birdcage has island level AOE it's mostly cutting through not plain destruction. Destroying plateau isn't that impressive but yes, I get your point. 

I do agree BM should have DC enough to destroy the island. Oda still haven't showed us though.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Aug 10, 2017)

Fujitora, Aokiji, Eneru (w/ Arc Maxim), Prime Chinjao, BB and WB all have island level or higher feats so I hope we get a swag one from Kaido


----------



## trance (Aug 10, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Jozu is the big guy in these pictures.



at this point, i'm starting to question pwngoat's literacy


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 10, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> at this point, i'm starting to question pwngoat's literacy



Yeah, that's why I've been trying to teach him who the different One Piece characters are. I think he's making gradual progress.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Aug 10, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Akainu overpowering curiel,Akainu overpowering Ace. Read the manga.Then come and post your idiotic opinions here. You will find things which are shown and then you won't ask stupid questions like those.



When talking about commanders ITT I am talking about top commanders like Vista, Marco and Jozu. You can't find a panel of an admiral overpowering them even though they had extended exchanges. Marco even outright overpowered Kizaru.



12zoro said:


> umm..They can Oneshot you. What the heck do commanders have that can kill an admiral? give me panel evidence. I'll wait.
> When hitting their intangible bodies has shown to have no effect on them -Case in point kizaru vs marco or Akainu vs marco,you have little evidence to suggest over a period of time it will work. Stop bullshitting and downplaying and show panel evidence of it if you can.Especially when we know COA has a limit as stated by Law.Prove commanders can continue using it "over a course of few days"



Jozu made Aokiji bleed with one punch. Over the course of  a few days it would add up. Marco also showed the ability to connect with their bodies.

Also just because it has a limit does not mean we know the commander's limits. G4 uses an inordinate amount of haki according to Law.



12zoro said:


> Yeah,I was just thinking that the original post may be too sarcasm heavy for someone like you. Let me dumb it down for you.
> Akainu and Aokiji are logias. They still continued to fight for 10 days straight. No, they did not take any extended breaks in between so that the other could heal. Since they are logias,they need haki to hit each other. That feat of them using haki over the course of 10 days is waay greater than anything that has been said about the commanders use of COA. Compare it to the current levels of crap COA G4 luffy can use for a limited time(and still have enough to knock a commander out),it is a far greater showing than any.



There was nothing complicated about that very juvenile attempt at wit. The only thing it achieved was giving me overwhelming cringe. How do you know they didn't take breaks? They had to keep hydrated or do their organs function differently? How do you know they used CoA haki all the time for 10 days instead of spamming elemental attacks? How else would the island change its climate?

10 days is not that impressive. Rookie Ace fought Jimbe for 5 days. Cracker fought Luffy for 12 hours with no sign of real fatigue, just frustration.





12zoro said:


> No, I am not. You said sugar can touch Roger when he is distracted. Okay,she freaking touched him and he turned into a toy,which got his attention that he freaking doesn't have arms and legs made of flesh anymore. Before the contract happens,he uses HH to knock sugar out.
> 
> Make out better scenarios to give examples of rather than those which make no sense.



Yes you are. In your scenario Roger is cognizant of Sugar at the last moment. You can't use that to prove he wouldn't get one shot when distracted. You are being foolish or illiterate. The point is anyone in the OP world except maybe Kaido gets oneshot with a hax ability. If you are not paying attention to someone like Akainu then you lose limbs.



Kai said:


> Not sure where you at all disagree with my post.
> 
> The man erroneously claimed "Marco > Admiral" which is false considering he got punked by Old Garp who is a VA on the Admiral level even while old.



My point is, you using Garp to disprove 'Marco>Admirals' is incorrect if Garp is also >Admirals. Garp had a better showing against Marco than C3.



Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Never understood the admiral downplay when there casual shit has been shown to be consistently  >> yonko comanders and in general are still  2nd to whitebeards feats at least until Oda decides to give the yonko some actual feats.



Like Bruce Lee said, 'boards don't hit back'. Freezing an ocean is nice but it doesn't prove you can freeze someone 1v1 when they are focused on you. Mihawk 'casually' cut that iceberg but had to ask Vista for a postponement even though Vista never showed anything like the iceberg feat.

Don't let the Michael Bay visual effects fool you.



Jackalinthebox said:


> Anyone have a link to the chapter where Marco was beating Kizaru? I don't think it exists
> 
> Kizaru was trolling Marco, just like he did Beckman. Kizaru > every Yonko FM



Kizaru's goal was to go straight for WB. Once Marco kicked him down he didn't attempt to do it again because he realised he wouldn't get past Marco. Very good trolling at failing at your goal.

Beckmann made Kizaru back down. He then left the area to join Shanks by the plaza and only then did Kizaru attack. This can be seen by Kizaru landing on the spot Beckmann was sitting on previously. It was obvious he left the area, unless he has the teleport fruit to join Shanks seconds later.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> What!? You're telling me you're not following the Bhutanese version of OP which is 3 years ahead of Oda's Japanese version?
> 
> Which has an Edo Tensei'd Thatch and a rejuvenated Marco & Jozu defeating the other Yonkou and Akainu's marines, conquering the Grand Line and becoming the new rulers of the seas?
> 
> *Why else do you think the likes of PwnGoat and Seraphoenix hold the opinions that they do?*



I told you not to compare me to that Shanks' downplayer

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> at this point, i'm starting to question pwngoat's literacy


It's about time you learned what literacy is.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Fujitora, Aokiji, Eneru (w/ Arc Maxim), Prime Chinjao, BB and WB all have island level or higher feats so I hope we get a swag one from Kaido


Nope, Ishoo took pre established buildings and shit that were already destroyed and simply used gravity.
Aokiji only used cold to freeze already established water, he didn't create the ice, simply decreased the temperature.
Nope to Enel
Chinjao destroyed a giant ice berg.
BB didn't.
WB didn't.


----------



## Tenma (Aug 10, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Nope, Ishoo took pre established buildings and shit that were already destroyed and simply used gravity.
> Aokiji only used cold to freeze already established water, he didn't create the ice, simply decreased the temperature.
> Nope to Enel
> Chinjao destroyed a giant ice berg.
> ...



....That'a like saying Chinjao splitting an island isn't an island level feat because he didn't create the island. Freezing an island-sized quantity of water instantly is an island-level feat. Aokiji's power isn't creating ice it's lowering enthalpy

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Tenma said:


> ....That'a like saying Chinjao splitting an island isn't an island level feat because he didn't create the island. Freezing an island-sized quantity of water instantly is an island-level feat. Aokiji's power isn't creating ice it's lowering enthalpy


Chinjao's wasn't an island leveled feat.
Also all Aokiji did was decrease the temperature, also yes Aokiji DOES create ice.

Aokiji's attack couldn't do shit to an island anyway but freeze it over.


----------



## trance (Aug 10, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> It's about time you learned what literacy is.



if i do, you sure as hell aren't qualified to teach me

Reactions: Winner 2 | Creative 1


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 10, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Nope, Ishoo took pre established buildings and shit that were already destroyed and simply used gravity.
> Aokiji only used cold to freeze already established water, he didn't create the ice, simply decreased the temperature.
> Nope to Enel
> Chinjao destroyed a giant ice berg.
> ...



All of them have Island level attack. WB attack even go further to Shabaody he's not Island it was Continent Level.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> All of them have Island level attack. WB attack even go further to Shabaody he's not Island it was Continent Level.


Whitebeard creates earthquakes that effect the fault lines that already exist.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Akainu alone vs all of the commanders lasted less than a chapter. No one disputes that. I was correcting your mistaken claim that Akainu had half of the marines fighting alongside him. He didn't. They arrived in the next chapter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Akainu defeated the bobbins of the crew and was stopped by Marco.
That's the extent, the rest were simply making a line in the sand to defend Luffy. After the 2 things happened though (weak guy losing and marco matching him to block his attack), sengoku pretty much called the rest of the marines to help cuz akainu was pretty much getting nowhere.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yes mb I remembered incorrectly. In any event he fought the commanders for a very short amount of time. As the marines, joined him after they saw Law arrive. The use of the word chapter seems to imply a long period of time when we are talking under 5 mins. Also Aokiji and Kizaru were already in the area meaning there was the added danger of watching your back for those two.
> 
> 
> 
> You disputed my claim of there being no manga basis to say an admiral would beat a commander 1v1 with no distractions, by referring to the hypothetical in the OP which is not a 1v1. Try again.


Under 5 minutes? IT was under 15 seconds. Akainu literally ran in to attack, Marco repelled an attack or 2 while the bobbins of the crew was defeated between marco and akainu clashes. That's about it. It was literally like 5 pages worth with a few things said and Sengoku was already calling people to help.

Pretty much Akainu beat a lower end crew commander which would be akin to the people below Pekoms and then a few clashes of Marco vs Akainu being pretty even, then Sengoku's battle order.

The rest weren't fighting, the line of commanders and crocodile was a symbolic thing, it was their line in the sand to defend Luffy, it wasn't the "okay let's team up on akainu" team. No one else defended against or attacked Akainu in that situation.


----------



## Akitō (Aug 10, 2017)

Kai said:


> What I seem to see, from an objective standpoint is there is a lot of changing to fit the narrative from the Admirals=Yonko camp when it comes to first mates/commander, and I'm referring specifically to what they call exceptions to the rule.
> 
> For example, in the eyes of the Admirals=Yonko camp: Rayleigh and Zoro, who are first mates, have and respectfully will be Admiral level because they are "exceptions to the rule" as being PK's first mates. This exception has never been implied or exempt from other Yonko first mates  so there's some obvious narrative changing to fitting here. It gets bad enough that some people even extend this "exception" to Sabo because he is heavily plot relevant (not referring to you Sherlock).
> 
> So if a first mate/commander/No. 2 Revolutionary is at an Admiral level, they are exceptions because they are "special", but if they aren't then everything is in order and at no expense of cognitive dissonance



You seriously can't see why people treat Zoro, the first mate who at one point during the manga was speculated to be the captain of the Strawhat crew by an outside observer, and Rayleigh, the guy who Roger refers to as "aibou", differently than Marco or Katakuri? Just compare the relationships they have with their captains: Zoro and Rayleigh are partners, Marco and Katakuri are subordinates. There's clearly more of a sense of equality between Zoro/Luffy and Rayleigh/Roger than there is between Marco/Whitebeard and Katakuri/Big Mom. 

As with everything in One Piece, none of this is "proof" of anything. But even if you disagree, the logic is behind the argument is reasonable.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Akitō said:


> You seriously can't see why people treat Zoro, the first mate who at one point during the manga was speculated to be the captain of the Strawhat crew by an outside observer, and Rayleigh, the guy who Roger refers to as "aibou", differently than Marco or Katakuri? Just compare the relationships they have with their captains: Zoro and Rayleigh are partners, Marco and Katakuri are subordinates. There's clearly more of a sense of equality between Zoro/Luffy and Rayleigh/Roger than there is between Marco/Whitebeard and Katakuri/Big Mom.
> 
> As with everything in One Piece, none of this is "proof" of anything. But even if you disagree, the logic is behind the argument is reasonable.


Nothing points Rayleigh as being anything more than the Marco of the crew. You act like Vista and others weren't listening to Marco's orders. 

Also it's only head canon that makes Rayleigh special as a first mate relative to his captain. He might have an edge over Marco back then cuz Pirate King > Yonkou and he's the first mate relative to that, but to claim that he had any more actual strength than Marco or Katakuri just because they view their captain as their father figure is stupid. 

In the end, Luffy since gears has been building a steady gap between him and zoro. Post timeskip the monster trio doesn't really exist. There is Luffy, then his top commanders (zoro, jinbei, and sanji), then the rest as the same. 
Luffy isn't comparable to Zoro in strength anymore. 

Also anyone looks at LUffy and Zoro and assumes Zoro would be the captain, he was strong enough to be a captain in paradise and until Luffy got gears (and people underestimate Luffy based on his looks and attitude), he was comparable to Zoro when he (luffy) wasn't blood lusted. Though right now, the gap has grown and Luffy, probably like Roger to Rayleigh, has gained a considerable gap. 

The logic is a stretch, Luffy treats most of his crew pretty even to himself and goes submissive to Nami often, that doesn't mean Nami is > than Marco does it within their respective crew? Of course not.

You are trying to mix character traits and needs for strength, which is silly. While we have someone like Katakuri who is far too serious and edgy, we also have someone like Marco who is pretty much Kizaru 2.0 and who was having a post weed sarcasm battle to the death with Kizaru.


----------



## Kai (Aug 10, 2017)

Akitō said:


> You seriously can't see why people treat Zoro, the first mate who at one point during the manga was speculated to be the captain of the Strawhat crew by an outside observer, and Rayleigh, the guy who Roger refers to as "aibou", differently than Marco or Katakuri? Just compare the relationships they have with their captains: Zoro and Rayleigh are partners, Marco and Katakuri are subordinates. There's clearly more of a sense of equality between Zoro/Luffy and Rayleigh/Roger than there is between Marco/Whitebeard and Katakuri/Big Mom.
> 
> As with everything in One Piece, none of this is "proof" of anything. But even if you disagree, the logic is behind the argument is reasonable.


Akito you're shifting the goal post.

No one is denying Rayleigh or Zoro may very well be different compared to someone like Marco, given relationships and status of their captains. But to say they are _Admiral level or beyond in contrast to a Marco or Benn because of relationship differences is *absolutely* changing the narrative to suit arguments._


----------



## Akitō (Aug 10, 2017)

Kai said:


> Akito you're shifting the goal post.
> 
> No one is denying Rayleigh or Zoro may very well be different compared to someone like Marco, given relationships and status of their captains. But to say they are _Admiral level or beyond in contrast to a Marco or Benn because of relationship differences is *absolutely* changing the narrative to suit arguments._



The argument that "Marco is Admiral level because Rayleigh is Admiral level and Marco = Rayleigh" is flawed for the reason I stated in my previous post. There is no narrative shifting here. If you believe that Marco is equal to or stronger than the Admirals by virtue of his feats, I would disagree (for reasons I've argued countless times on this forum) but also acknowledge the validity of your opinion because there's nothing I can say to prove it wrong.

And "level" is a very vague term. I believe Marco and the rest of the first mates are on the level of the Admirals (i.e. first mates can give Admirals at least a high-diff fight), but I also believe that the Admirals are on the level of the Yonko (i.e. Admirals can at least give Yonko a high-diff fight). The difference between top-tiers is generally going to be fairly marginal IMO. But that's just my opinion.

Regardless, your description of the opposition's argument is wrong:



> So if a first mate/commander/No. 2 Revolutionary is at an Admiral level, they are exceptions because they are "special", but if they aren't then everything is in order and at no expense of cognitive dissonance



No. If a first mate who is portrayed to be more equal to his captain than a typical first mate is shown to be Admiral level, his power cannot be applied to every first mate.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Aug 10, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> When talking about commanders ITT I am talking about top commanders like Vista, Marco and Jozu. You can't find a panel of an admiral overpowering them even though they had extended exchanges. Marco even outright overpowered Kizaru.
> 
> 
> Kizaru's goal was to go straight for WB. Once Marco kicked him down he didn't attempt to do it again because he realised he wouldn't get past Marco. Very good trolling at failing at your goal.
> ...


Outright overpowered? Basic physics says no. Answer this for me; if Kizaru had been standing with solid footing when Marco kicked him, would he have been "overpowered" just as easily in the exact same way?

Where's the logic in that? He knew he'd have to fight Marco, which defeated the purpose since he wanted to get rid of the leader first. Obviously Kizaru can't just casually bitchslap a FM level fighter, none of this disproves my statement of Kizaru being > any FM

Nope. You can see Beckman looking straight up and the rays of light being directly above him. It's just Kizaru wasn't in the least bit worried about Beckman

At the very least; you have to admit that Kizaru has better feats than any current Yonko commander

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 10, 2017)

Marco is pretty much a good fight for any of the admirals. He's on their level and would occupy their full attention.
The other three are not so much the same as Marco. Katakuri can probably give an admiral around high-diff. Cracker and Jozu are respectively mid-diff or mid-high difficulty fights, though it depends on the particular admiral.

Any combination of Katakuri, Jozu and Cracker would defeat an admiral. However, an admiral might defeat Jozu before Katakuri and Cracker can defeat one. An admiral might also defeat Cracker before Kakakuri and Jozu can defeat one.

Assuming Marco and Katakuri are the only ones who go solo against an admiral, then the commanders would win. Otherwise, the admirals would take it. The fight is closer than some posters think.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 11, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> When talking about commanders ITT I am talking about top commanders like Vista, Marco and Jozu. You can't find a panel of an admiral overpowering them even though they had extended exchanges. Marco even outright overpowered Kizaru.
> 
> 
> Jozu made Aokiji bleed with one punch. Over the course of  a few days it would add up. Marco also showed the ability to connect with their bodies.


You mean the punch from which aokiji was absolutely fine? The face where you cannot see a scratch when Aokiji takes out jozu? 

Do you see the difference that when a commander attacked,you got the most minute of damage over to an admiral *when he was distracted*? Where is the feat of a commander even hurting an admiral when they were not distracted? And even then,aokiji was the one who got a little lip bleed. Akainu was straight up interrupted when trying to take out luffy after killing Ace by not 1 but 2 commanders and he wasn't hurt in the slightest but annoyed. Which damage are you talking about again?


> Also just because it has a limit does not mean we know the commander's limits. G4 uses an inordinate amount of haki according to Law.


So why are *you *claiming that a commander can use haki "over the course of a few days"? Know the concept of NLF? Any showing when the commanders did that?



> There was nothing complicated about that very juvenile attempt at wit. The only thing it achieved was giving me overwhelming cringe. How do you know they didn't take breaks? They had to keep hydrated or do their organs function differently? How do you know they used CoA haki all the time for 10 days instead of spamming elemental attacks? How else would the island change its climate?


Yet,the sarcasm was still completely lost on you.

How are you going to hit and hurt the other with elemental attacks when he is a logia? Was Aokiji and akainu's fruit told to be in a superiority relationship? why are you claiming elemental attacks work on a logia? Proof? NLF.



> 10 days is not that impressive. Rookie Ace fought Jimbe for 5 days. Cracker fought Luffy for 12 hours with no sign of real fatigue, just frustration.


And you will never see me claiming Jinbei used haki for 5 days straight in that fight because jinbei has ways to hit Ace without haki. What do the admiral's have to hit the other with other than haki clad attacks? Other than your claim which is NLF till you prove otherwise.

You are literally comparing a feat that is 20 times better than the other. And the increase is the feat capability is not even linear.You will get tired the more you fight constantly. 





> Yes you are. In your scenario Roger is cognizant of Sugar at the last moment. You can't use that to prove he wouldn't get one shot when distracted. You are being foolish or illiterate. The point is anyone in the OP world except maybe Kaido gets oneshot with a hax ability. If you are not paying attention to someone like Akainu then you lose limbs.


Nope once again. You try to act like you have figured out how to give examples when in fact you haven't. There are 2 moments of hax required by sugar. One to touch and turn the other in a toy,the other to then make a contract.Distraction like you are saying is for 1 moment of hax,wherein the admirals fodderized the commanders in one moment,whereas the commanders gave the other a lip bleed. Why else do you think Trebol kept cavendish and co stuck till everything was done? Try again with better examples.

Reactions: Like 4 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Shanks (Aug 11, 2017)

Just want to say can't wait to see Marco and Jozu again this year. Hopefully they will get some feats to progress his argument, lol.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 11, 2017)

Akitō said:


> The argument that "Marco is Admiral level because Rayleigh is Admiral level and Marco = Rayleigh" is flawed for the reason I stated in my previous post. There is no narrative shifting here. If you believe that Marco is equal to or stronger than the Admirals by virtue of his feats, I would disagree (for reasons I've argued countless times on this forum) but also acknowledge the validity of your opinion because there's nothing I can say to prove it wrong.
> 
> And "level" is a very vague term. I believe Marco and the rest of the first mates are on the level of the Admirals (i.e. first mates can give Admirals at least a high-diff fight), but I also believe that the Admirals are on the level of the Yonko (i.e. Admirals can at least give Yonko a high-diff fight). The difference between top-tiers is generally going to be fairly marginal IMO. But that's just my opinion.
> 
> ...


Rayleigh isn't admiral leveled =w=
Marco is > or = Admiral leveled
Prime Rayleigh is probably > Admiral though

Rayleigh was hanging on with Kizaru but was having stamina issues, maybe post timeskip he's in better shape so he might be admiral leveled but he was losing to Kizaru while Marco was beating Kizaru before blind sides.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 11, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Rayleigh isn't admiral leveled =w=
> Marco is > or = Admiral leveled
> Prime Rayleigh is probably > Admiral though
> 
> Rayleigh was hanging on with Kizaru but was having stamina issues, maybe post timeskip he's in better shape so he might be admiral leveled but he was losing to Kizaru while Marco was beating Kizaru before blind sides.


PawnGoat you need reading comprehension skills. Just because you want to neg me,you are writing idiotic statements everywhere. Give a proper reason about why you are negging me like you are uptight that I called you out on your bullshit and hence you are negging me.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Akitō (Aug 11, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Rayleigh isn't admiral leveled =w=
> Marco is > or = Admiral leveled
> Prime Rayleigh is probably > Admiral though
> 
> Rayleigh was hanging on with Kizaru but was having stamina issues, maybe post timeskip he's in better shape so he might be admiral leveled but he was losing to Kizaru while Marco was beating Kizaru before blind sides.



Wait, so Rayleigh isn't even Admiral level, but Marco is stronger than Akainu? Holy shit.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 11, 2017)

Akitō said:


> Wait, so Rayleigh isn't even Admiral level, but Marco is stronger than Akainu? Holy shit.



IKR, FM of the PK crew isn't admiral level.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## trance (Aug 12, 2017)

12zoro said:


> PawnGoat you need reading comprehension skills. Just because you want to neg me,you are writing idiotic statements everywhere. Give a proper reason about why you are negging me like you are uptight that I called you out on your bullshit and hence you are negging me.



pwngoat lives in his own little fantasy world where he's right no matter what and everyone else who doesn't conform to his (mostly) laughable beliefs is a shit poster


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 12, 2017)

Akitō said:


> Wait, so Rayleigh isn't even Admiral level, but Marco is stronger than Akainu? Holy shit.


Marco had the edge over Kizaru while Rayleigh was able to keep up with Kizaru but was having stamina issues, this might have been fixed over the timeskip thanks to him being active again but pre timeskip he was weaker than Kizaru purely due to that stamina issue.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 12, 2017)

12zoro said:


> PawnGoat you need reading comprehension skills. Just because you want to neg me,you are writing idiotic statements everywhere. Give a proper reason about why you are negging me like you are uptight that I called you out on your bullshit and hence you are negging me.


Because you're a shit poster. 
A shit poster who is cocky and acts like he is right when the things you are saying are just false, like Sanji one hitting the pacifista when he clearly didn't.


----------



## Nox (Aug 12, 2017)

Kai said:


> That's like saying Sabo is a "second rate" Revolutionary when we know this guy is going to be Admiral level once he masters the Mera Mera no Mi, including "Awakening."
> 
> And he's No. 2 of the Revolutionary Army.



Do we decide to ignore: Sabo's age relative to these commanders, his fruit-less strength or his implied potential equivalence of Admiral being prime reason for him not being 'second rate'. Pirates faction constitutes of Yonko, Warlords, Commanders, Supernova, Rest. Doesn't such a vast pool give greater to access to determine first and second rates. Whereas Revolutionaries have select stand out leaders. Commanders being second rate isn't a knock on them. Rather it shows just how competitive the top is. If we have Sabo at 2/3 Commander now & speculating further growth it shows he's not of the same cloth.


----------



## Akitō (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco had the edge over Kizaru while Rayleigh was able to keep up with Kizaru but was having stamina issues, this might have been fixed over the timeskip thanks to him being active again but pre timeskip he was weaker than Kizaru purely due to that stamina issue.



Your evidence for Marco being stronger than Kizaru is him kicking Kizaru once and not doing _any_ noticeable damage? Keep in mind that this was Marco's first combat scene, so Oda was almost obliged to give him a "badass" scene (this is a common trope in anime). I can see why you'd consider him to be on the same "level" as Kizaru based on his performance during the war, but to conclude that he is outright stronger is a bit much.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Gohara (Aug 13, 2017)

^Fair point but to be fair I've seen the same type of reasoning used in reverse to suggest that the Admirals are > Marco.  Not that two wrongs make a right of course.

As for Rayleigh, even though I do think that most if not all Admirals have a slight edge over Old Rayleigh, to me if a character can give another character more than around high difficulty they're around the same level.  So to me Old Rayleigh who can still match up on par with an Admiral is basically around Admiral level.  Marco being > Old Rayleigh even if only somewhat seems reasonable though.  They mostly hold the same type of rank in their respective Pirate Crews and Rayleigh has mostly been inactive for multiple decades.

Being that we've barely seen either of them in match ups so far though there's no way for us to know for a fact who would win that match up more often than not.  Oda could always show more of Old Rayleigh and/or Marco that makes the match up seem more clear but for now I would think that they're generally around the same league with Marco arguably being somewhat superior than Old Rayleigh.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## trance (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> like Sanji one hitting the pacifista when he clearly didn't.





a wrong opinion but still an opinion i guess

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 13, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> a wrong opinion but still an opinion i guess



And I was imagining that John Goodman character was @12zoro

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> pwngoat lives in his own little fantasy world where he's right no matter what and everyone else who doesn't conform to his (mostly) laughable beliefs is a shit poster





PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Because you're a shit poster.
> A shit poster who is cocky and acts like he is right when the things you are saying are just false, like Sanji one hitting the pacifista when he clearly didn't.



Just posting these 2 quotes one after the other. You literally called it- calling everyone else a shit poster LMAO

Yes pawngoat,because you remember the last time a pacifista got back up to attack after getting it's neck stuck at a weird ass angle causing short circuit or after it got f****** cleaved in 2?


Kyouko said:


> a wrong opinion but still an opinion i guess

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Just posting these 2 quotes one after the other. You literally called it- calling everyone else a shit poster LMAO
> 
> Yes pawngoat,because you remember the last time a pacifista got back up to attack after getting it's neck stuck at a weird ass angle causing short circuit or after it got f****** cleaved in 2?


I actually was calling him out on doing exactly what you said, but reading isn't your strong point, I remember being 12.

Pacifista wasn't cleaved in two and a pacifista survived getting it's head bitten into.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> a wrong opinion but still an opinion i guess


He very well could possibly soon, however he didn't, Zoro and Sanji beat it with one attack each.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Akitō said:


> Your evidence for Marco being stronger than Kizaru is him kicking Kizaru once and not doing _any_ noticeable damage? Keep in mind that this was Marco's first combat scene, so Oda was almost obliged to give him a "badass" scene (this is a common trope in anime). I can see why you'd consider him to be on the same "level" as Kizaru based on his performance during the war, but to conclude that he is outright stronger is a bit much.


It took Akainu 10 days to defeat Kizaru and Kizaru turned to light when hit towards the ground since he couldn't stop the momentum but he wanted to avoid the crashing damage which he did by turning to light. 

Only yonkou and people who have extreme levels of hax can do noticeable shit to an admiral right away, not even Marco, however th ere are a few things you should consider.

1) He seemed to have some form of intangibility that while inferior to a logia, still allowed him to disregard ranged attacks from kizaru since they didn't have haki as long as he was focused on kizaru

2) Being a zoan, he doesn't just have the special abilities of the mystical part of it, he also has flight which means that he has more freedom than Kizaru does in the air + he has the zoan boost that result in him being physically stronger than any of the logia admirals (and ishoo, I think green bull will be a logia) 

3) Anyone who Marco can standstill in the short term will lose to him, this is due to the fact that while his enemy will be damaged ever so slowly just like all top tiers (which includes marco), Marco will be able to retain perfect shape. Those hits will start to hurt (and marco has the cqc advantage while he can be intangible through attacks that he sees coming from a range, though admirals can as well, but this just means the fight will have to go close range and that's where marco shines), then factor in that they'll start to slow down since those hits will build up while Marco will have a fresh healthy body throughout the fight. By the time his healing factor reaches it's limits (if it even does within the fight), marco will have no damage and they'll be weak heavily damaged enough that he'll be able to just outright beat them 1 v 1 still cuz they'll be bruised up to all hell, their legs will hurt, they might have lost an eye or something, etc etc, meanwhile all damage done to him will have healed. 

So yeah, marco has the clear advantage over an admiral, though he's not going to be an admiral in 10 minutes or anything crazy like that.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> marco has the clear advantage over an admiral



- clear advantage
- failed to noticeably injure Akainu even with Vista's help and the element of surprise
Marco > Admiral indeed.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Aug 13, 2017)

When comparing the C3 with top Yonko commanders, there's one main thing I tend to always go back to 

We saw what Marco, Jozu & Vista could do when catching an Admiral off guard. Now compare that to what the C3 were capable of when they caught high level fighters off guard 

The difference is huge, tbh. The C3 are just far more lethal and packing way more firepower than any Yonko commander we've encountered so far

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Jigen said:


> - clear advantage
> - failed to noticeably injure Akainu even with Vista's help and the element of surprise
> Marco > Admiral indeed.


1) Unnamed attack
2) Akainu failed to defeat Aokiji for 10 days, meaning Admiral > Akainu > Aokiji, right?
3) Akainu: "ugh", physically shaking in pain in the above panel, and complaining about the pain.

Try again.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> When comparing the C3 with top Yonko commanders, there's one main thing I tend to always go back to
> 
> We saw what Marco, Jozu & Vista could do when catching an Admiral off guard. Now compare that to what the C3 were capable of when they caught high level fighters off guard
> 
> The difference is huge, tbh. The C3 are just far more lethal and packing way more firepower than any Yonko commander we've encountered so far


1) Marco was fine, both against Garp and Kizaru's attacks
2) Aokiji literally froze Jozu's arm internally, if there is one thing we know, it's that one piece characters still have functioning bodies, for example Doflamingo was dropped by gamma knife until he stitched himself back together, whitebeard suffered from getting hit with lava in his face to lose half his head, etc etc. Jozu simply rammed Aokiji with a diamond shoulder slam run, Aokiji froze Jozu's arm when he had no buso or diamond defense.
3) Vista wouldn't be fighting an admiral, Thatch or Whitebeard would, Vista would be still fighting Mihawk.

Marco has more physical strength than any admiral due to being a logia
Marco has a healing factor
Marco is immune to non haki ranged attacks like laser shots
Marco has more control of himself in the air thanks to his flying than Kizaru does and Akainu and Aokiji can't fly at all.

So no.

Marco > Jozu = Admiral > Thatch > Vista = Mihawk > Ace


But yeah, Marco and Vista attacked Akainu with unnamed sharp edge attacks, they didn't exactly hit him with hax. They also made him grimace, shake, and complain at the pain.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Marco was fine, both against Garp and Kizaru's attacks
> 2) Aokiji literally froze Jozu's arm internally, if there is one thing we know, it's that one piece characters still have functioning bodies, for example Doflamingo was dropped by gamma knife until he stitched himself back together, whitebeard suffered from getting hit with lava in his face to lose half his head, etc etc. Jozu simply rammed Aokiji with a diamond shoulder slam run, Aokiji froze Jozu's arm when he had no buso or diamond defense.
> 3) Vista wouldn't be fighting an admiral, Thatch or Whitebeard would, Vista would be still fighting Mihawk.
> 
> ...


Marco took more damage from Kizaru's casual attacks than any Admiral has taken from a Yonko commander 

That's completely arbitrary and you have nothing to back it up dude. Kizaru has two strength feats better than any of Marco's. And we already saw a ranged attack hurt Marco, we know he's vulnerable when in base

Admiral > Marco > Jozu > Vista


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Unnamed attack


Why does it matter if an attack is named or not? Off the top of my head, Whitebeard, Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk have never named their attacks.


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 2) Akainu failed to defeat Aokiji for 10 days, meaning Admiral > Akainu > Aokiji, right?


I'm pretty sure Akainu never had a partner to help him with a free shot on Aokiji.


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 3) Akainu: "ugh"


So? He got sliced in the neck yet there was no sign of any blood or injury. You'd think that if the mighty Marco, who is already > Akainu, had help then Akainu would have been pretty badly injured.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Akitō (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Being a zoan, he doesn't just have the special abilities of the mystical part of it, he also has flight which means that he has more freedom than Kizaru does in the air



Which is why Kizaru likely won't take to the air against Marco.



> + he has the zoan boost that result in him being physically stronger than any of the logia admirals (and ishoo, I think green bull will be a logia)



This is fanfiction considering we have no way of comparing their physical strengths.



> Anyone who Marco can standstill in the short term will lose to him, this is due to the fact that while his enemy will be damaged ever so slowly just like all top tiers (which includes marco), Marco will be able to retain perfect shape. Those hits will start to hurt (and marco has the cqc advantage while he can be intangible through attacks that he sees coming from a range, though admirals can as well, but this just means the fight will have to go close range and that's where marco shines), then factor in that they'll start to slow down since those hits will build up while Marco will have a fresh healthy body throughout the fight. By the time his healing factor reaches it's limits (if it even does within the fight), marco will have no damage and they'll be weak heavily damaged enough that he'll be able to just outright beat them 1 v 1 still cuz they'll be bruised up to all hell, their legs will hurt, they might have lost an eye or something, etc etc, meanwhile all damage done to him will have healed.



This is more fanfiction. You are making the assumption that Kizaru and Marco will be trading hits evenly throughout the fight and that Marco's kick was more damaging overall (in terms of stamina/injuries) to Kizaru than Kizaru's Yasakani no Magatama was to Marco despite us having no way of knowing how damaging Marco's kick was or how draining Marco's healing power is.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> I actually was calling him out on doing exactly what you said, but reading isn't your strong point, I remember being 12.
> 
> Pacifista wasn't cleaved in two and a pacifista survived getting it's head bitten into.


Ignoring the first half of your post this time since I have no idea what you are trying to say.

So,you mean zoro slashed the pacifista's back too then? Cause everytime I have seen zoro win with his final attack,the opponent,if he has not been cleaved in 2,would only have a bloody cut on his front side. In this case,the attack went through the pacifista,emerging as the exact slash through his back.

Maybe you just watched the anime and forgot that there is a manga too?


----------



## Gohara (Aug 13, 2017)

@ Jack.

Aokiji did far more to Jozu than Kizaru did to Marco when both landed surprise blows on their opponents.  Yet we know that Kizaru isn't decisively > Aokiji.  Using another example, if Sugar touches Luffy from behind, she wins.  However if Diamante does the same thing, Luffy tanks it.  Yet we know that Diamante is significantly more powerful than Sugar.

So just because one Technique works better than another Technique in surprise blows, doesn't necessarily make that character more powerful than the other character.  In my opinion if Aokiji were really so much more powerful than Jozu then Jozu wouldn't have been able to match up on par with Aokiji for multiple chapters.  Although I do think that Aokiji would win in a fair one on one match up between them.


----------



## trance (Aug 13, 2017)

Jigen said:


> Why does it matter if an attack is named or not? Off the top of my head, Whitebeard, Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk have never named their attacks.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Akainu never had a partner to help him with a free shot on Aokiji.
> 
> So? He got sliced in the neck yet there was no sign of any blood or injury. You'd think that if the mighty Marco, who is already > Akainu, had help then Akainu would have been pretty badly injured.



tea, leave the poor man alone

terms like 'logic' and 'reading comprehension' might as well be a foreign language to him; it's too much for him to process

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 13, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Jack.
> 
> Aokiji did far more to Jozu than Kizaru did to Marco when both landed surprise blows on their opponents.



No, that's an incredibly disingenuous way of putting things.  

Kizaru pierced two holes straight through his chest which ordinarily would be enough to fatally wound most opponents. Marco was able to subsequently recover because of his DF power grants him the ability to heal from any attack. Though Kizaru not finishing off Marco of for good right then when he was still cuffed and wounded was one of the most egregious examples of PIS during MF (in an arc filled with them) but I digress. 

As Marco can recover from literally any attack aimed at him regardless of who aims it at him and the power it has, to make it a fair comparison what you need to do is look at the effect of the attack on him _before_ he has to regenerate (if at all) and not do what you did and just look at the final outcome.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 13, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> No, that's an incredibly disingenuous way of putting things.
> 
> Kizaru pierced two holes straight through his chest which ordinarily would be enough to fatally wound most opponents. Marco was able to subsequently recover because of his DF power grants him the ability to heal from any attack. *Though Kizaru not finishing off Marco of for good right then when he was still cuffed and wounded was one of the most egregious examples of PIS during MF (in an arc filled with them) but I digress. *
> 
> As Marco can recover from literally any attack aimed at him regardless of who aims it at him and the power it has, to make it a fair comparison what you need to do is look at the effect of the attack on him _before_ he has to regenerate (if at all) and not do what you did and just look at the final outcome.


Tbf Same could be said for Jozu as well. Aokiji just froze him and then left when all it took was for him to simply smash the rest of his body.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Though Kizaru not finishing off Marco of for good right then when he was still cuffed and wounded was one of the most egregious examples of PIS during MF (in an arc filled with them) but I digress.





Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Tbf Same could be said for Jozu as well. Aokiji just froze him and then left when all it took was for him to simply smash the rest of his body.


The admirals do not think to finish off every low tiers that face them 

Though yeah, PIS was heavily overused in there to keep characters alive and even the island they were standing on intact. I always laugh at WB not able to destroy a steel wall

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Ignoring the first half of your post this time since I have no idea what you are trying to say.
> 
> So,you mean zoro slashed the pacifista's back too then? Cause everytime I have seen zoro win with his final attack,the opponent,if he has not been cleaved in 2,would only have a bloody cut on his front side. In this case,the attack went through the pacifista,emerging as the exact slash through his back.
> 
> Maybe you just watched the anime and forgot that there is a manga too?


I only read the manga, he pretty much did one of those elaborate cuts where it cuts alongside the pacifista with a full running through motion while Sanji attacked the head, both attacked, both were needed. You can argue that Zoro with stronger attacks can take one out but the attack he used was only able to defeat the pre timeskip pacifista due to the aid of Sanji.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Akitō said:


> Which is why Kizaru likely won't take to the air against Marco.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marco is a zoan, it's literally what zoans are good at, though if you want evidence, Marco attacked, Kizaru blocked, Marco then powered through him and sent him flying. So yes, Marco is >>>>>>> Kizaru in raw physical strength. 

1) Kizaru didn't do any damage with the beams, Marco was intangible, I've been over this. He was not displaced by the attacks, he showed no pain when he did later when he was hit and then healed, the attacks went through him harmlessly, and etc etc. Marco's zoan is pretty much blue fire, which can be used for intangibility but he seems to have to be tangible to attack unlike logia + he has to actively use it. 
2) It wouldn't matter, marco doesn't have to completely equalize the damage because Kizaru and stuff don't have ANY healing factor. But yeah, outside of the times Marco was cheap shotted by worrying about Whitebeard and stuff, marco did more damage to Kizaru.

Marco is a top tier, meaning that his healing factor will go to top tier lengths, so we can assume days.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Jigen said:


> Why does it matter if an attack is named or not? Off the top of my head, Whitebeard, Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk have never named their attacks.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Akainu never had a partner to help him with a free shot on Aokiji.
> 
> So? He got sliced in the neck yet there was no sign of any blood or injury. You'd think that if the mighty Marco, who is already > Akainu, had help then Akainu would have been pretty badly injured.


Really only Whitebeard, the rest just haven't had their serious fights yet. Garp hasn't had any fight at all. Sengoku is up in the air, and Mihawk has only been seen doing regular sword strikes against Vista's regular sword strikes.

We'll see Mihawk use named attacks when he's pushed.
Same with Sengoku and Garp.

But yeah, swordsman in particular use named attacks because that's how they get most of their effectiveness from.
Whitebeard is the only example though in the end and he might actually have some but he didn't use them.
Garp, Sengoku, and Mihawk just haven't had their big fights though.

But yeah Marco and Vista only cut at him and they still hurt him.

Both Marco and Vista's attacks did damage, and together they'd take him out well before 10 days are over, so your argument about Akainu not having Vista doesn't help at all, it took 10 days of attacks to defeat Aokiji, outside of hax, top tiers are absolute tanks.
It's not that complicated, Akainu couldn't do any more to Marco than Marco did to him.

"no blood or injury" 
He was clearly injured by the attack but he's a logia, the damage was done.

Marco is > Akainu, but it would take days for him to beat him, just like how it took 10 days for akainu to defeat aokiji, this isn't that hard, you're literally nitpicking bullshit reasons to try to justify your argument when I've already gone over this with you.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> I only read the manga, he pretty much did one of those elaborate cuts where it cuts alongside the pacifista with a full running through motion while Sanji attacked the head, both attacked, both were needed. You can argue that Zoro with stronger attacks can take one out but the attack he used was only able to defeat the pre timeskip pacifista due to the aid of Sanji.


Now I am really confused. What are you talking about? From what I see in the manga zoro cuts the pacifista from the front and the attack goes through the back.You can even see the front side of the pacifista in the smaller picture at the end.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 13, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Really only Whitebeard, the rest just haven't had their serious fights yet. Garp hasn't had any fight at all. Sengoku is up in the air, and Mihawk has only been seen doing regular sword strikes against Vista's regular sword strikes.
> 
> We'll see Mihawk use named attacks when he's pushed.
> Same with Sengoku and Garp.
> ...


So why does it matter if the attack is named or not? I mean, Akainu had just killed Ace and was about to kill Luffy, if that wasn't the time for Marco and Vista to go all out, I don't know what is.


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Both Marco and Vista's attacks did damage


And there was no blood because...?


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> It's not that complicated, Akainu couldn't do any more to Marco than Marco did to him.


All Akainu (or any other Admiral) has to do is keep hitting him with attacks (which really won't be hard to do) until his regen runs out, and then Marco will be screwed.


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco is > Akainu.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Marco took more damage from Kizaru's casual attacks than any Admiral has taken from a Yonko commander
> 
> That's completely arbitrary and you have nothing to back it up dude. Kizaru has two strength feats better than any of Marco's. And we already saw a ranged attack hurt Marco, we know he's vulnerable when in base
> 
> Admiral > Marco > Jozu > Vista


"casual attack"
It wasn't casual

Also you're forgetting that Marco was literally turned away or in seastone when he was hit by those.

Akainu took around as much damage from Vista's surprise attack.

The only strength feats we have for Marco are overpowering Kizaru and blocking Akainu's attack, so no.
Anyway no it's not arbitrary and I do have evidence to back it up.

Jozu lifted this:


Therefore if this was just eternal freezing:


There is literally no objective way he wouldn't just push his way out. There was internal freezing going on, which would freeze the muscles, which would deem his strength completely useless.

He normally wouldn't be hit by this though due to the fact that has busoshoku and diamond defense to resist this if he was consciously aware, Aokiji beat Jozu by hax, ie freezing him to the bone.

This is objective fact because there is no other possible way this could make sense unless he froze Jozu's brain as well, which would also be due to hax.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 13, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Tbf Same could be said for Jozu as well. Aokiji just froze him and then left when all it took was for him to simply smash the rest of his body.



At least with Jozu, Aokiji knew that there was no way for him to get back involved in the war short of someone having an instant thawing DF ability on the WB pirates side. 

Kizaru just let the FM completely walk after wounding him fatally when cuffed and being presented with the best opportunity anyone will probably ever get to outright kill him considering his hax fruit. It didn't even require that much effort in the situation - just a few more lasers would have done. He then manage to have an effect in the rest of the war, including temporarily stalling Akainu and raising the morale of his side. 

Don't know what the guy was thinking tbh - must have been high at the time. I hope Akainu's implemented a code of random drug testing now that he's in charge.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Aug 13, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> At least with Jozu, Aokiji knew that there was no way for him to get back involved in the war short of someone having an instant thawing DF ability on the WB pirates side.
> 
> Kizaru just let the FM completely walk after wounding him fatally when cuffed and being presented with the best opportunity anyone will probably ever get to outright kill him considering his hax fruit. It didn't even require that much effort in the situation - just a few more lasers would have done. He then manage to have an effect in the rest of the war, including temporarily stalling Akainu and raising the morale of his side.
> 
> Don't know what the guy was thinking tbh - must have been high at the time. I hope Akainu's implemented a code of random drug testing now that he's in charge.


We all know Kizaru was stoned, and we all know Akainu can't afford to risk pissing him off by taking away his weed privileges

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Aug 13, 2017)

Poor Akainu, he has to deal with imbeciles.  

Then again this makes it fair, imagine how scary the marines will be if all the Admirals were as dedicated and tenacious as Sakazuki.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Yuki (Aug 13, 2017)

No admiral is losing to a yonko commander. The difference between them is like a SN vs a yonko commander. Not even a FM. 

Just imagine 100% Luffy vs Marco right now. Luffy gets his ass kicked. Yes, it may take a bit, but Marco wins without taking any kind of real damage.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> At least with Jozu, Aokiji knew that there was no way for him to get back involved in the war short of someone having an instant thawing DF ability on the WB pirates side.
> 
> Kizaru just let the FM completely walk after wounding him fatally when cuffed and being presented with the best opportunity anyone will probably ever get to outright kill him considering his hax fruit. It didn't even require that much effort in the situation - just a few more lasers would have done. He then manage to have an effect in the rest of the war, including temporarily stalling Akainu and raising the morale of his side.
> 
> Don't know what the guy was thinking tbh - must have been high at the time. I hope Akainu's implemented a code of random drug testing now that he's in charge.


Nah, Marco probably just got away from Kizaru, yes Marco couldn't activate his zoan but he's still a top tier.

"doesn't require much effort" 
Clearly it does since he failed. Also a few more lasers? Bullshit, Marco is a top tier, even without his healing he's still going to take a lot to take him down, and he has a lot of allies around ther etoo.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 13, 2017)

Jigen said:


> So why does it matter if the attack is named or not? I mean, Akainu had just killed Ace and was about to kill Luffy, if that wasn't the time for Marco and Vista to go all out, I don't know what is.
> 
> And there was no blood because...?
> 
> All Akainu (or any other Admiral) has to do is keep hitting him with attacks (which really won't be hard to do) until his regen runs out, and then Marco will be screwed.


Because Akainu is a yonkou.

"keep hitting him till he regen runs out and then marco is screwed"
I like how you actually think that's a good argument, all Marco has to do is a fraction of the damage that the admirals do and the admirals are dropping, and the more damage he does, the less they'll do cuz they'll be weakened by the damage.

It's hilarious how Marco having many times as much health as the admirals is seen as a weakness to idiots in this forum.

You keep debating that someone who clashed equally with Marco is going to lose 1000+ hp before an admiral loses 100 hp.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 13, 2017)

@ Admiral Kizaru.

While Marco might have healed later on using his Abilities, my point with that example is that even while having his Devil Fruit Abilities inactive and being battle worn, he withstood multiple surprise Techniques from Kizaru. Whereas Aokiji defeated Jozu with a surprise Technique. Obviously, I don't think that Aokiji is > Kizaru, but if we were using the same reasoning being used against Jozu then that's what it would suggest. Marco isn't the only example either. A battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy has withstood multiple blows from Kizaru as well, even though Aokiji can one shot characters far more powerful than Pre Time Skip Luffy if he gets them from behind.

Also, that's not even the main point. The main point is that there are many comparisons that can be made where far weaker characters can one shot characters that characters far more powerful than them can't. Sugar's character can technically one shot almost any character in the series if she touches them from behind, including top tier and high tier characters, a lot of whom characters like Marco arguably can't one shot even if he gets them from behind. Although we haven't seen Marco fight much on screen yet. Yet Marco is many times more powerful than Sugar's character.

I don't really have any issue with the idea of Aokiji having an edge over Jozu. I just don't think that it has anything to do with a comparison in what they did to each other when both were distracted.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## hokageyonkou (Aug 13, 2017)

admirals are top tiers. yonkou commanders are not. maybe yonkou first mates but that's a maybe.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ Admiral Kizaru.
> 
> While Marco might have healed later on using his Abilities, my point with that example is that even while having his Devil Fruit Abilities inactive and being battle worn, he withstood multiple surprise Techniques from Kizaru. Whereas Aokiji defeated Jozu with a surprise Technique. Obviously, I don't think that Aokiji is > Kizaru, but if we were using the same reasoning being used against Jozu then that's what it would suggest. Marco isn't the only example either. A battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy has withstood multiple blows from Kizaru as well, even though Aokiji can one shot characters far more powerful than Pre Time Skip Luffy if he gets them from behind.
> 
> ...


But Jozu =/= marco. Jozu is weaker than marco. So what is your point?
This only means admirals can one shot Jozu and likely people on his level. they need to work a bit harder for putting down marco or first commanders which is only logical because he is the second strongest commander for the yonkou.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> This only means admirals can one shot Jozu and likely people on his level.



I think this is only work for Aokiji and Akainu, while kizaru he needs to spam his laser beam which is easy for him to do while Aokiji can frost anyone and Akainu can magma fist = to One shot.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 14, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> I think this is only work for Aokiji and Akainu, while kizaru he needs to spam his laser beam which is easy for him to do while Aokiji can frost anyone and Akainu can magma fist = to One shot.


Nah,I disagree. Kizaru has got the raw power and the ability to one shot.Instead of being stoned and moving around,he could get serious for once and actually do what he says he should do-"at times like these,you should get one straight through the head". But he is too big of a troll to do such things


----------



## TheWiggian (Aug 14, 2017)

Guys this is literally cyberharassment.
Poor Goat.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 14, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Nah,I disagree. Kizaru has got the raw power and the ability to one shot.Instead of being stoned and moving around,he could get serious for once and actually do what he says he should do-"at times like these,you should get one straight through the head". But he is too big of a troll to do such things



Oh okay never thought of going straight to the head. But I also thinking if Doffy can free himself from being frozen maybe others too(same level) or you need COC.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 15, 2017)

@ zoro.

Generally it's true that Marco is > Jozu, but in this case we're comparing Jozu to Marco not only without his Devil Fruit Abilities but also weakened due to Seastone.  Jozu is almost certainly more powerful than that version of Marco or even being generous at the very least comparable.

Furthermore, as I said, there are many examples.  That's just one of the many examples.  Using one of the most relevant comparisons possible, Aokiji can one shot characters far more powerful with surprise blows than we've seen Kizaru do so far, even though we know that Aokiji isn't far more powerful than Kizaru.  Sugar's character can one shot the most powerful characters in the series if her character touches them from behind even when almost no other character can.  Yet Sugar's character is arguably not even more powerful than the average Vice Admiral.  Even though I agree that Aokiji arguably has an edge over Jozu surely we can at least agree that a comparison between what they did to each other while both were distracted is irrelevant to which character is more powerful?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 17, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ zoro.
> 
> Generally it's true that Marco is > Jozu, but in this case we're comparing Jozu to Marco not only without his Devil Fruit Abilities but also weakened due to Seastone.  Jozu is almost certainly more powerful than that version of Marco or even being generous at the very least comparable.
> 
> Furthermore, as I said, there are many examples.  That's just one of the many examples.  Using one of the most relevant comparisons possible, Aokiji can one shot characters far more powerful with surprise blows than we've seen Kizaru do so far, even though we know that Aokiji isn't far more powerful than Kizaru.  Sugar's character can one shot the most powerful characters in the series if her character touches them from behind even when almost no other character can.  Yet Sugar's character is arguably not even more powerful than the average Vice Admiral.  Even though I agree that Aokiji arguably has an edge over Jozu surely we can at least agree that a comparison between what they did to each other while both were distracted is irrelevant to which character is more powerful?


From what we have seen,yes aokiji can one shot more people. But,kizaru is just as effective if he really wants to kill. Just  take the same marco case-2 lasers through his head when he was handcuffed would be game over. But it is seldom shown since PIS/CIS as shots like that would basically mean killing the character unlike aokiji's shots with which you still have a chance of thawing out.Consider that aokiji froze jozu but did not kick him which would have shattered jozu into pieces because of the same PIS/CIS.

Regarding the aokiji case too,doffy got out of it with some effort just fine,but jozu could not and needed external help.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 18, 2017)

Any character can stab another character in the head so that doesn't apply specifically to Kizaru.  Even when not doing so however Aokiji seems to have significantly superior one shot ability than Kizaru even though we know that Aokiji isn't significantly superior to Kizaru.

Plus with all the examples that I've named my point stands either way.  There are many examples in which far weaker characters have more one shot ability than far more powerful characters so just because Aokiji has more one shot ability than Jozu doesn't necessarily mean that Aokiji is significantly more powerful than Jozu.  

@ Sherlock.

Responding to your post in another thread:

If an Admiral having relatively brief clashes with a Yonkou who at the time we know to be ill and battle worn is enough to convince you that those characters are around the same level then there's nothing wrong with citing relatively brief clashes between Marco and an Admiral that you speculate to be holding back more than Marco as a reason for thinking that a Yonkou First Mate could be an Admiral if they were a Marine.

Furthermore Big Mam's character was already cited as having Admiral to Fleet Admiral level potential before she even achieved Haki and obtained Devil Fruit Abilities so her character's First Mate being an Admiral wouldn't be strange in my opinion.

As for Rayleigh, if we were talking about Prime Rayleigh I can see why you consider him an exception, but he's been inactive in match ups for multiple decades and is emphasized as not being as powerful of a character as he use to be. There's really no evidence for his character, as a First Mate, to be an exception amongst First Mates even while being around a good deal weaker than his character use to be.

Either way until we start seeing Admirals best Yonkou First Mates consistently- and it hasn't happened at all yet even though we've seen multiple clashes between them- I see no reason to change my mind but you're free to provide evidence on the contrary.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 18, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Any character can stab another character in the head so that doesn't apply specifically to Kizaru.  Even when not doing so however Aokiji seems to have significantly superior one shot ability than Kizaru even though we know that Aokiji isn't significantly superior to Kizaru.
> 
> Plus with all the examples that I've named my point stands either way.  There are many examples in which far weaker characters have more one shot ability than far more powerful characters so just because Aokiji has more one shot ability than Jozu doesn't necessarily mean that Aokiji is significantly more powerful than Jozu.


Nope. You just cannot say that anyone can pierce anybody else through the head and kill them. You need to have higher destructive capacity than the opponents durability to do that feat.

Kizaru has specifically demonstrated the same feat by poking a large hole through marco's head. But due to his regen,marco recovered. Do you think Oda randomly draws matches like these? Making marco specifically face opponents who are incredibly strong and recover from those attacks is a way of showing how strong those people are. Why do you think kizaru was sent to sabaody and not akainu? Because akainu would have killed everything. Kizaru doesn't..he trolls around.Similarly aokiji introduced the way he was-in between randomly but put kizaru in his place on long ring island and you have straw hats massacre.
Kizaru is just a big troll who is severely restricted by PIS just so that he does not kill people(refer supernovas) instantly. And the only other example you have given is sugar's which is pure hax. Aokiji's ability has been demonstrated to be broken through by sheer force,something not shown for sugar's ability.

Doffy could do it,but not jozu. This and the fact that doffy controls jozu at MF should be seen as to where jozu actually lies in the ranking scale.


----------



## trance (Aug 18, 2017)

@12zoro

ur not gonna budge gohara from his stance; believe me, most of us have tried

granted, most of his arguments rely on stonewalling and reading far too much into certain situations and from that, extrapolating various tidbits of info that may or may not (most likely not) be crucial to his argument at hand but still

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 18, 2017)

kyouko said:


> @12zoro
> 
> ur not gonna budge gohara from his stance; believe me, most of us have tried
> 
> granted, most of his arguments rely on stonewalling and reading far too much into certain situations and from that, extrapolating various tidbits of info that may or may not (most likely not) be crucial to his argument at hand but still


Hey,by consistently eroding on his posts,you guys got him from shanks low diffs the admirals to at least a mid diff(I hope at least this much progress was made). I can at least try to do some things right on the forum

And besides,if he wants to claim something ungodly, the least I can do is point him to manga evidence which shows the exact opposite


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 18, 2017)

atleast @Gohara  was nice and if proven wrong he will respectfully agree also what he said does make sense unlike you know who, am I right @12zoro ? good thing your rep becomes green again


----------



## TheWiggian (Aug 18, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Hey,by consistently eroding on his posts,you guys got him from shanks low diffs the admirals to at least a mid diff(I hope at least this much progress was made). I can at least try to do some things right on the forum
> 
> And besides,if he wants to claim something ungodly, the least I can do is point him to manga evidence which shows the exact opposite




It's just a waste of time, so if you're bored like me sometimes, he can seriously help you out by responding with huge amounts of letters.


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 18, 2017)

Gohara is set in his beliefs and we respect him for it as he is are resident tier specialist.

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 18, 2017)

@Don Elson haha yeah...the forum suddenly became lethargic once someone was banned,no funny comments to read and waste time on


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 18, 2017)

12zoro said:


> @Don Elson haha yeah...the forum suddenly became lethargic once someone was banned,no funny comments to read and waste time on



I miss him already, Like sometimes I literally laugh my ass off to some of his post... Fckin Hilarious! Like Jinbei said every crew has some Buggy on it and Battledome became boring without him in it.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 19, 2017)

@ kyouko.

I think that you're confusing stonewalling with walls of text. I suppose you could say that I'm occasionally guilty of walls of text (although I come from Forums with waaaay bigger walls of text so I always find it funny when my posts get called walls of text), but I would love for you to point out any instance in which I've stonewalled. I usually make it a point to respond to every point in any post that I'm responding to so I would be very interested in seeing you post all those instances so I can address any points that you think that I didn't.

Meanwhile I can think of multiple points that I've never seen properly addressed by those who think that the Admirals are around as powerful as the Yonkou. A couple of which, for example, are A. Who will match up against the top Yonkou Commander level characters in the final war? And B. What of Caramel making a distinction between Admiral level and Fleet Admiral level as well as saying that a Devil Fruitless Big Mam will be at least Admiral to Fleet Admiral level? The first point is important because top Yonkou Commander level characters are obviously significantly superior to Vice Admirals which leaves who besides the Admirals? If the Admirals are more powerful than the top Yonkou Commander level characters then that means that The World Government is going to win?

The second point is important because if Big Mam's character is already hyped up as Admiral level to Fleet Admiral level without Devil Fruit Abilities and Haki for that matter, how would she not be a level above the Admirals with them? I mean I guarantee if Oda had someone in the Manga say something about Pre Devil Fruit Akainu like “In terms of Pirate ranks he could be a Yonkou First Mate!” the first thing some of you would do is point out how this proves that the Admirals are around Yonkou level since giving a Yonkou First Mate the Lava Fruit could reasonably make them at least comparable to Yonkou level. In fairness in that scenario you wouldn't really be wrong to do that.

Walls of text don't really have anything to do with tactics. I simply address all the points that I'm responding to and sometimes, yes, the posts turn out to be what I suppose you consider to be relatively long posts. If I respond to all the points in detail you complain that my posts are walls of text but if I were to not respond to every point I suppose you would complain that I'm not addressing all of your points. 

Also my views are always open to changing if there's enough evidence for it. Jinbe, Aokiji, Urouge, Vista, and Jozu are examples of characters who I rank higher than I use to. Although I have no idea what zoro is referring to about Shanks vs. the Admirals. I don't recall saying that any Admirals can give Shanks around solid mid difficulty. Fleet Admirals sure but I consider them to be a notch above the Admirals. If my opinion ever does change on that it certainly won't be because of peer pressure on a Forum, especially just one Forum. There are also a lot of fans who think that the Yonkou are a level above the Admirals (and I know that you know this because multiple of you guys have referenced this fact on multiple occasions), so even if I found more value in majority opinion than I did evidence, a group of like the same 6 people hounding me will never be anywhere near enough for me to change my mind. The issue here is that you assume that hounding will change my mind and when it doesn't, you get the impression that I'm just being stubborn. That's because you're not taking the right approach. Come at me with a lot of counter evidence as well as evidence and if it's there I'll happily change my mind like I have on Jinbe, Aokiji, Urouge, Vista, and Jozu. Come at me with a bunch of insults and I'll just say okay so what? I respect your views either way, you don't have to respect mine. That's your business.

@ zoro.

If Squardo can stab Whitebeard without any issues then almost any character remotely powerful would be able to do the same to almost any other character in the series. Neither Aokiji nor Kizaru used head shots and yet Aokiji's Technique was far more effective in those comparisons. Plus if you agree that Sugar's character has far superior one shot ability than a lot of characters more powerful than her then the Aokiji and Kizaru comparison doesn't even matter that much. Either way my point is simply that having more one shot ability doesn't necessarily mean that a character is more powerful than another character, which is the argument being made against Jozu here. Also Sugar's character is far from the only example. Law has more one shot ability than Luffy even though we know that Luffy is more powerful than Law. Bonney is arguably one of the weakest Supernovas and yet she has more one shot ability than most of The Supernovas. There are countless examples. Therefore Aokiji having more one shot ability than Jozu does not equate to Aokiji being more powerful than Jozu. Although I reiterate that I do actually give Aokiji an edge over Jozu, just not for that reason.

Marco didn't use his Devil Fruit Abilities to regenerate from the wounds that we're referring to because it was while he was handcuffed with Sea Stone. So even while being weakened and without his Devil Fruit Abilities he can still withstand Kizaru's Techniques.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## trance (Aug 20, 2017)

Gohara said:


> I respect your views either way, you don't have to respect mine.



i'd appreciate it if you didn't give me a tl;dr for two sentences that i said about you

unnecessary and annoying

pls and ty


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 20, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ zoro.
> 
> If Squardo can stab Whitebeard without any issues then almost any character remotely powerful would be able to do the same to almost any other character in the series. Neither Aokiji nor Kizaru used head shots and yet Aokiji's Technique was far more effective in those comparisons. Plus if you agree that Sugar's character has far superior one shot ability than a lot of characters more powerful than her then the Aokiji and Kizaru comparison doesn't even matter that much. Either way my point is simply that having more one shot ability doesn't necessarily mean that a character is more powerful than another character, which is the argument being made against Jozu here. Also Sugar's character is far from the only example. Law has more one shot ability than Luffy even though we know that Luffy is more powerful than Law. Bonney is arguably one of the weakest Supernovas and yet she has more one shot ability than most of The Supernovas. There are countless examples. Therefore Aokiji having more one shot ability than Jozu does not equate to Aokiji being more powerful than Jozu. Although I reiterate that I do actually give Aokiji an edge over Jozu, just not for that reason.
> 
> Marco didn't use his Devil Fruit Abilities to regenerate from the wounds that we're referring to because it was while he was handcuffed with Sea Stone. So even while being weakened and without his Devil Fruit Abilities he can still withstand Kizaru's Techniques.


Again,you are wrong.
Squardo caught WB by surprise. Being caught by surprise means WB was unaware (and it is PIS,but I can even go on proving you wrong without going through the PIS part)which means that he could not brace himself for the attack. It is a very common technique used even in real world martial arts where you brace(as in strengthen,tighten) the body part (like your stomach/abs) before impact.It also means WB cannot use his haki to defend himself. If you read the manga,you will notice that Rayleigh states at the first instance that BH can be used for defense.

And the point I made about kizaru poking large holes through marco is not when he was handcuffed. Again,if you read the manga,you will see that marco steps in between kizaru trying to attack WB at the very start of the war and has at least 3 holes through his body. He knowingly steps through them. It means kizaru is powerful enough to literally one-shot anybody who is as tough as marco,if he can get them through his head,very similiar to aokiji doing the same.

You still do not address how doffy could break out of the same attack from aokiji but jozu could not if jozu is remotely on par with aokiji.

The point being made about jozu is he got done in by a technique which we know can be broken out of by characters,presumably more powerful than him.You cannot say that aokiji used a one-shot technique when we literally have manga evidence of doffy breaking out of it.Jozu couldn't ,that is why he was one shot,not because aokiji's attack is a one shot for any and all characters.

If you want your stonewall texts to be taken seriously,you have to answer the actual questions asked off you and not go off in 1 direction which just circumvents the actual arguments.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 20, 2017)

The examples in question are Aokiji and Kizaru also catching their opponents off guard. Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru, at least when catching their opponents off guard. Since one of my points is that almost any powerful character can one shot almost any character in the series when catching them off guard, that doesn't really take anything away from my point.

The question isn't whether Kizaru can get his lasers through the bodies of characters. The question is whether that's enough to defeat them. So Kizaru getting lasers through Marco at the beginning of The Marineford War Arc isn't in disagreement with anything that I'm saying, especially since Marco intentionally took them. My point is that even while weakened and without his Devil Fruit Abilities, Marco can more than withstand Kizaru's lasers. Whereas when Aokiji did the same to a non-weakened top Yonkou Commander, he won. Therefore, Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru excluding head shots (because almost every powerful character in the series has one shot ability when going for head shots). Yet we know that Aokiji isn't significantly more powerful than Kizaru. Moreover, I'm not entirely sure why we're even still focusing on this specific comparison so much when my point is still the same either way. As I said there are countless examples of characters who are far more powerful than other characters who have superior one shot ability. Not that the Aokiji and Kizaru example isn't valid because it is, but I mean, it doesn't really matter that much. It's just one of hundreds if not thousands of examples that can be used to convey the same point.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The only questions you posed at all are:

“Do you think Oda randomly draws matches like these?”

I didn't answer that because it didn't seem like an actual question even though you posted a question mark, and it isn't particularly relevant to either of our points.

“Why do you think kizaru was sent to sabaody and not akainu?”

I'm sure that it has more to do with Oda saving Akainu for The Marineford War Arc but your point on Akainu taking characters out is part of why I'm using Kizaru as an example in the first place. Even though he's an Admiral like the other Admirals his offense is not as high as theirs, although I still think that it's no less powerful of a Devil Fruit due to the multiple amazing benefits that it offers.

I suppose that you're trying to suggest that Kizaru is purposely not defeating those characters but that's too speculative and even if that were the case we've seen him use lasers on many occasions, to suggest that Kizaru has held back significantly or at least any more than Aokiji on all of those Techniques requires a significant amount of proof.

To address your point on Doflamingo and Aokiji, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here because I agree that Doflamingo also has an edge over Jozu. That doesn't necessarily mean that Jozu wouldn't give Doflamingo and Aokiji at least around or somewhat more than high difficulty in a match up though. As such I don't consider either of them a whole level or league above Jozu even though I do give them an edge.

Almost no Technique in the series is an automatic one shot victory. My point isn't to say that Aokiji's Technique is one of those. My point is that Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru. Aokiji can one shot characters more powerful than characters who can withstand multiple lasers from Kizaru. That doesn't necessarily mean that Aokiji can one shot everyone with that same Technique. Just that if both Aokiji and Kizaru froze and shot lasers through every character in the series, Aokiji would one shot far more of them than Kizaru. Even though Aokiji and Kizaru are around the same level of power. This has nothing to do with me saying that Aokiji is => Kizaru. My point is actually that they're arguably around the same level, and yet Aokiji still has more one shot ability, and the reason that I'm making this point is to show that having more one shot ability =/= being more powerful.

Again, stonewalling =/= walls of text. I'm actually trying to do the opposite of stonewalling by trying to focus on the actual points (which is why I'm reiterating that there are many examples like Aokiji vs. Kizaru- thus why are we still discussing that specific comparison?) but you mentioned me not answering a couple questions in one of your previous posts, but they were not particularly relevant to the argument nor in disagreement with me, focusing on them instead of the actual point would actually be stonewalling. Therefore I'm a little puzzled as to why you're saying that I'm straying away from the main points since I am not only addressing the main points but am only addressing less relevant points because you're asking me to.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 20, 2017)

Gohara said:


> The examples in question are Aokiji and Kizaru also catching their opponents off guard. *Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru*, at least when catching their opponents off guard. Since one of my points is that almost any powerful character can one shot almost any character in the series when catching them off guard, that doesn't really take anything away from my point.


And the bolded is the one where I am saying you are wrong. Aokiji or kizaru one shot their opponents because those opponents are weaker than them. It is like saying luffy has one-shot abilities because he can right now one shot almost everybody from his hometown village. That is wrong. That is a portrayal of their strength and not something to only do with their devil fruit abilities.



> The question isn't whether Kizaru can get his lasers through the bodies of characters. The question is whether that's enough to defeat them. So Kizaru getting lasers through Marco at the beginning of The Marineford War Arc isn't in disagreement with anything that I'm saying, especially since Marco intentionally took them.


Which essentially means kizaru's destructive capacity is that strong.If a character that is on the level of a yonkou commander is not careful around kizaru,he is getting killed.


> My point is that even while weakened and without his Devil Fruit Abilities, Marco can more than withstand Kizaru's lasers. Whereas when Aokiji did the same to a non-weakened top Yonkou Commander, he won.


 Which is a better portrayal feat for marco which you are in agreement with.This means jozu is just that weak when compared to admirals.



> Therefore, Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru excluding head shots (because almost every powerful character in the series has one shot ability when going for head shots). Yet we know that Aokiji isn't significantly more powerful than Kizaru. Moreover, I'm not entirely sure why we're even still focusing on this specific comparison so much when my point is still the same either way. As I said there are countless examples of characters who are far more powerful than other characters who have superior one shot ability. Not that the Aokiji and Kizaru example isn't valid because it is, but I mean, it doesn't really matter that much. It's just one of hundreds if not thousands of examples that can be used to convey the same point.


The examples you quote of characters having far more superior one shot ability are different than the one-shot abilities of people with better df abilities(but not broken ones). Like WB,Akainu maybe even kaidou. they all are up there because they can one-shot,but that is because they are multiple times stronger than 99% of the one piece population.


> I'm not sure what you mean here. The only questions you posed at all are:
> 
> “Do you think Oda randomly draws matches like these?”
> 
> ...


These were not the questions I was expecting an answer to. The questions expected to be answered were for doffy in the last post,which you have addressed them in this one.


> I suppose that you're trying to suggest that Kizaru is purposely not defeating those characters but that's too speculative and even if that were the case we've seen him use lasers on many occasions, to suggest that Kizaru has held back significantly or at least any more than Aokiji on all of those Techniques requires a significant amount of proof.


I just gave an example of how destructive kizaru's lasers are(that is,the marco example). If he hits anybody weaker than marco level characters with those through the head,they are dead. That is not to say that anybody weaker than marco will be killed right off the bat. If they can react to kizaru's attacks and maybe even hurt him,they can still fight for some period of time.
Everytime he used lasers,he has hurt the opponent,no matter who he is.that is because he is just that much destructive himself and one of the strongest in the op verse.But use them against let's say akainu or garp(prime),they are not going to do that much damage as they do to weaker characters because garp and co have better defenses and durability.


> To address your point on Doflamingo and Aokiji, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here because I agree that Doflamingo also has an edge over Jozu. That doesn't necessarily mean that Jozu wouldn't give Doflamingo and Aokiji at least around or somewhat more than high difficulty in a match up though. As such I don't consider either of them a whole level or league above Jozu even though I do give them an edge.


I am trying to prove stronger characters,even if they are distracted will not get one-shot by aokiji. Case in point doflamingo. That just gives you a glimpse of how far off aokiji and jozu are in terms of strength difference.Giving aokiji a high diff? No way. But hanging with aokiji for sometime? yes,sure.If he(jozu) was anywhere near close enough to aokiji's level,he would never be oneshot,distracted or not.



> Almost no Technique in the series is an automatic one shot victory. My point isn't to say that Aokiji's Technique is one of those. My point is that Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru. Aokiji can one shot characters more powerful than characters who can withstand multiple lasers from Kizaru. That doesn't necessarily mean that Aokiji can one shot everyone with that same Technique. Just that if both Aokiji and Kizaru froze and shot lasers through every character in the series, Aokiji would one shot far more of them than Kizaru. Even though Aokiji and Kizaru are around the same level of power. This has nothing to do with me saying that Aokiji is => Kizaru. My point is actually that they're arguably around the same level, and yet Aokiji still has more one shot ability, and the reason that I'm making this point is to show that having more one shot ability =/= being more powerful.


They would one shot anybody who is weaker than them. Would not be able to one shot anyone close to their power levels or stronger than them(assuming the opponent just stands there and takes the hit doing nothing).


----------



## Gohara (Aug 21, 2017)

First section:

-But Kizaru doesn't one shot every character who is weaker than them. In fact even Pre Time Skip Supernovas have withstood multiple lasers from Kizaru, including a significantly battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy.

-Every character has some degree of one shot ability. I'm not denying that Kizaru has one shot ability. It's just that Aokiji's threshold is higher than Kizaru's. Kizaru has had many opportunities to one shot many characters below Jozu's level and simply has not done it yet at all. Obviously it's easy to say that he could simply shoot them through the head, but sure, that applies to every character. Especially when it's from behind, which is the scenario that we're discussing anyways. If any character is off guard even a Vice Admiral can stab, for example, Zoro in the head and one shot him. Which is why I don't think the head shot point changes my point at all. Aokiji can do the same thing. Outside of head shots, Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru.

Second section:

-Getting lasers through their bodies isn't automatically enough to take them out. Again, far weaker characters than top Yonkou Commander level characters have withstood those lasers.

Third section:

-Keep in mind that Sea Stone significantly weakens Devil Fruit Users. We're not talking a barely battle worn Marco or anything like that. We're talking about a Marco who not only lacks access to his Devil Fruit Abilities, which is already a somewhat significant reduction in level of power, but a Marco who is significantly weakened by Sea Stone at the time. So unless Marco is many times more powerful than Jozu I don't see how this adds up as superior portrayal for Marco rather than superior one shot ability portrayal for Aokiji. Not to mention even if that were the case, that would just be one less example among hundreds if not thousands.

Fourth section:

-That's subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I mean the most distinction that can really be made is Techniques that hit characters and Techniques that defeat characters in other ways, but Aokiji's Devil Fruit if anything would be classified in that section, which would nullify the argument against Jozu in the first place since Jozu's are of the hitting type. Additionally there are plenty of examples that don't include characters with Devil Fruit Abilities like those. Magellan can one shot The Pre Time Skip Blackbeard Pirates but when Sengoku landed a Technique on them they got up. Yet we know that Sengoku is more powerful than Magellan. Some characters simply have more one shot ability than others even when the other characters are more powerful than them.

Fifth section:

Nothing to add here.

Sixth section:

Nothing to add here since I've addressed this above in this post.

Seventh section:

-But I don't deny that Aokiji can't one shot every character. Also that's more of a comparison of Doflamingo and Jozu. It doesn't add any element to the discussion on Jozu vs. Aokiji. Most characters with any degree of one shot ability have a threshold and characters above that threshold can withstand more Techniques than characters below that threshold. There's no rule that a character has to be far weaker than Aokiji in order to be one shotted by him from behind. We just know that if you're as powerful as Doflamingo's character you have a great possibility of breaking out of the Ice. Which only means that Doflamingo is more powerful than Jozu at most. Something that I'm not disagreeing with anyways. What you're trying to say here isn't unreasonable but it's mostly speculative. We have no idea how much of a gap in power between Aokiji and other characters that there has to be in order for Aokiji to one shot them from behind. Besides one of the points of dispute here is whether that can be used against Jozu so it wouldn't really be any different than the point that started the discussion in the first place. Simply put, I agree that Aokiji has an edge over Jozu, but it can't rightfully be because Aokiji has more one shot ability than Jozu unless we also consider Sugar's character to be the most powerful character in the series, Magellan to be more powerful than Sengoku, Aokiji to be far more powerful than Kizaru, etc..

Eighth section:

Nothing to add here.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 21, 2017)

Gohara said:


> -But Kizaru doesn't one shot every character who is weaker than them. In fact even Pre Time Skip Supernovas have withstood multiple lasers from Kizaru, including a significantly battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy.


but Kizaru one hit, X-drake, Urogue, Apoo back on Sabaody.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 21, 2017)

Well they got back up and escaped Sabaody, so I don't know, to me that seems to count as withstanding them.  I mean it's not like they got up and did cart wheels.  But I mean in comparison to Aokiji being able to one shot characters far more powerful than that it's still a lot more than Jozu did.  Plus there are Hawkins and Luffy either way.

Edit:

Urouge is the only one not shown reacting from Kizaru's Technique.  Hawkins is about to stand up when Kizaru is about to aim another laser at him but lays back down when Kizaru goes elsewhere, Drake didn't say anything but a reaction panel from him is shown, and Apoo is shown saying that Kizaru got him.  But all three of them at least are conscious and considering that Urouge also escaped he's likely conscious as well.  So again not doing cart wheels but conscious = withstanding and cart wheels = tanking.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 21, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Well they got back up and escaped Sabaody, so I don't know, to me that seems to count as withstanding them. I mean it's not like they got up and did cart wheels. But I mean in comparison to Aokiji being able to one shot characters far more powerful than that it's still a lot more than Jozu did. Plus there are Hawkins and Luffy either way.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Urouge is the only one not shown reacting from Kizaru's Technique. Hawkins is about to stand up when Kizaru is about to aim another laser at him but lays back down when Kizaru goes elsewhere, Drake didn't say anything but a reaction panel from him is shown, and Apoo is shown saying that Kizaru got him. But all three of them at least are conscious and considering that Urouge also escaped he's likely conscious as well. So again not doing cart wheels but conscious = withstanding and cart wheels = tanking.



No they didn't withstand it my net is slow I can't show the aftermath where the SN is down... you said it, Hawkins is down yet Kizaru proceeds and ignore them cause his target are the SH's pirates and the war is near so maybe he's in a hurry plus he's a troll. we get it that Aokiji is by comparisons have a greater one shot ability than Kizaru. but their skill to one shot opponent's is in the same category.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Aug 21, 2017)

Pre-timeskip Luffy withstanding attacks from the Admirals was pure PIS.

And Kizaru casually oneshot Urouge, Drake & Apoo. All three were down for the count


----------



## Gohara (Aug 21, 2017)

I'm not a big fan of using PIS as evidence because it's too arbitrary but I also don't see how that would even apply here unless you're simply saying that Kizaru could have went for head shots, but again, my point is excluding head shots and when excluding head shots Pre Time Skip Luffy can withstand Kizaru's lasers.

@ Don Elson.

I'm not sure about in the Anime but in the Manga Hawkins almost has enough energy to stand up (and might have if Kizaru had stayed in that location), is shown with a speech bubble (although he didn't say anything in that panel), and escaped the Island that was filled with Marines at the time. To me all of that is enough evidence to suggest that he at least wasn't unconscious and/or entirely incapacitated. The Supernovas were still significantly wounded by the lasers but not full fledged defeated like Jozu.

Oh I know, Kizaru still has good one shot ability. I'm simply saying that Aokiji's is superior even though they're arguably around the same level of power. You seem to agree with my point that superior one shot ability doesn't necessarily make a character more powerful than another character anyways. If so everything else is moot point.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Aug 21, 2017)

My post was pretty straight forward...pre timeskip Luffy getting back up from Kizaru's hits was PIS. Only reason he didn't get knocked out of the war by the first attack was because of plot 

Hawkins wasn't about to get up, only way he was getting anywhere was by crawling. Kizaru while casual af, oneshot 4 Supernova's, and he could've easily killed them with those attacks had he wanted to


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 21, 2017)

Gohara said:


> I'm not sure about in the Anime but in the Manga Hawkins almost has enough energy to stand up (and might have if Kizaru had stayed in that location), is shown with a speech bubble (although he didn't say anything in that panel), and escaped the Island that was filled with Marines at the time. To me all of that is enough evidence to suggest that he at least wasn't unconscious and/or entirely incapacitated. The Supernovas were still significantly wounded by the lasers but not full fledged defeated like Jozu.


except to Hawkins the rest are KO while Hawkins is conscious of course he was... Kizaru attack him by laser not by kick like the rest and don't forget his DF and yes, he is able to stand up I don't deny that but If Kizaru decided to attack him one more time Hawkins is done. my point is if Kizaru continue to attack them or arrest them they will be on Impel Down right now or get killed.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 21, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> except to Hawkins the rest are KO while Hawkins is conscious of course he was... Kizaru attack him by laser not by kick like the rest and don't forget his DF and yes, he is able to stand up I don't deny that but If Kizaru decided to attack him one more time Hawkins is done. my point is if Kizaru continue to attack them or arrest them they will be on Impel Down right now or get killed.



That's not a oneshot though is it?


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 21, 2017)

Yuki said:


> That's not a oneshot though is it?


That only apply to Apoo, Urogue, and Drake.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 21, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> That only apply to Apoo, Urogue, and Drake.



Still, when talking to someone about oneshots aka done for good, you don't start saying. "Well if Kizaru stayed and hit him again." Coz that's not what Gohara was talking about and i'm sure even he knows if Kizaru stayed and hit him again it would be lights out for good.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 21, 2017)

Yuki said:


> Still, when talking to someone about oneshots aka done for good, you don't start saying. "Well if Kizaru stayed and hit him again."


Yeah, bad on my part. still I said except Hawkins the rest are one shot and I'm giving him reason why Hawkins is hard to one shot since he's DF might play out with that.

Edit: You edit your post... Yeah I know that. they are talking about one shot in which my 1st comment I said only three characters but Gohara keep saying that *they* can stand up which only Hawkins was still be able to do a thing, we know he can't even move anymore it was a mercy that Kizaru leave him alone.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 21, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> Yeah, bad on my part. still I said except Hawkins the rest are one shot and I'm giving him reason why Hawkins is hard to one shot since he's DF might play out with that.



From what we have seen his DF makes him completely immune to damage or not at all. If he was hit and hurt, then he took it himself coz he had no more decoy's.

Still, Kizaru was going easy against people pretty much fodder to him. This is not even an argument you should be having, it's obvious. Just let him think what he wants.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Aug 21, 2017)

Yuki said:


> This is not even an argument you should be having, it's obvious. Just let him think what he wants.


To Gohara : "not doing cart wheels but conscious = withstanding and cart wheels = tanking".  which is not the case since only Hawkins apply those and the three are down for good. and there is nothing wrong to point a friend to the right direction since Gohara is accepting criticism unlike Pwngoat.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 21, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> To Gohara : "not doing cart wheels but conscious = withstanding and cart wheels = tanking".  which is not the case since only Hawkins apply those and the three are down for good. and there is nothing wrong to point a friend to the right direction since Gohara is accepting criticism unlike Pwngoat.



Gohara just see's things in a different light than most people. On here anyways. Pwn is just down right ignorant. So i get what you're saying... I try with Gohara sometimes as well. But this is not really something that takes to be talked about over and over. o_O But do what you will.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gohara (Aug 22, 2017)

@ Don Elson.

At least Drake and Apoo aren't unconscious either with both of them having speech bubbles but fair enough.  I agree that Kizaru could have defeated them after that if he wanted to, no question about it, as Yuki is saying I'm not trying to make it sound like I disagree with that.  Kizaru is far above their level at that point in the series.  Also, as you said, I welcome any disagreements that you might have.  So feel free to point out if you think that I'm not seeing something that you're seeing, obviously some fans saw something in Urouge's character that I didn't initially, and I happily turned out to be wrong on how powerful Urouge is when he was stated to have bested Lord Snack.

I can't say it enough but I'm not trying to knock Kizaru compared to the other Admirals, I still think that his Devil Fruit Abilities are overall around the same level as theirs, possibly even superior in some cases.  I just think that when it comes purely to one shot ability Aokiji's is superior from what we've seen so far.  However Kizaru's offer more advantages than just a lot of firepower, which Kizaru's Devil Fruit Abilities also have.  For example Kizaru's makes him one of the fastest characters in the series and he can even sort of blind characters temporarily to some degree.

@ Jack.

One Piece Chapter 510 Page 8.

Here Hawkins is shown almost getting back up. On the next page he's still like that until Kizaru gets distracted and goes elsewhere. He then lays back down but still has a speech bubble even though he doesn't say anything. He then proceeds to escape the Island even though there are a lot of Marines on the Island.

Kizaru had those characters beat but to me being defeated implies being unconscious, which none of them clearly are, with all of them outside of Urouge shown still being conscious. Since none of them are shown being unconscious and the escape an Island with a lot of Marines on the Island, in what way are they full fledged defeated?

As for Luffy, I assume that you mean outlier instead of PIS. Either way you're basically saying that it's because of plot. However that's arbitrary. Anyone can say that anything is because of plot and use it for their arguments. Plus characters weaker than Jozu withstanding Kizaru's lasers has been consistent throughout the series. Arlong, a significantly weakened and Devil Fruitless Marco, several Pre Time Skip Supernovas, a significantly battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy, etc.. So I don't see how plot can be cited. Kizaru still has some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities that we've seen so far, no question about it. It's just that when specifically comparing Aokiji's and Kizaru's one shot ability, Aokiji has superior feats so far.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 22, 2017)

Look @Gohara it's pretty straightforward. 

1) We've got manga evidence of Kizaru being able to hit a tiny key from a reasonably far distance away with his lasers which displays his tremendous accuracy and range of them. 



2) We've also got manga evidence of said lasers piercing holes through people's bodies when hit even including Whitebeard's.

3) Ergo, it's a valid assumption to assume that Kizaru if he really wanted to could aim lasers straight through an opponent head and kill them instantly (i.e. OHKO'ing). Unless you believe that blowing a hole through someone's brain even in the OP world won't result in death or at least instant defeat. 

4) Thus why most people view your stance of underrating Kizaru's OHKO'ing or offensive capabilities at least relative to Aokiji's nonsensical. Like all the Admirals, he's got an immense offensive arsenal capable of mowing down high tiers casually; it's one of the reasons why he along with his colleagues are considered the cream of the crop when it comes to combatants in the entire OPuniverse, standing alongside the Yonkou, Mihawk and Dragon.  

5) Now it then begs the question why Oda hasn't shown it then .... which is where plot comes into play. It wouldn't be good for the story if Luffy and the other SN's were all wiped out permanently back at Shabondy and likewise Oda had future plans for Marco (fight with Teach) so decided to keep him alive. 

So it's not a question that Aokiji's ability is more lethal it's that Oda's more prepared to display it because whilst it's destructive on the battlefield (instant end to the duel) it can be ultimately recovered from with the right steps (see Luffy & likely Jozu). There's no recovering from Kizaru putting a hole through your brain unless you're Marco and have instant regen. 

6) Where I will slightly disagree with the others here is that it's not all PIS as a lot of it can be attributed to how Oda's chosen to portray Kizaru's personality: jocular, extremely casual and often careless. It was most evident against the SN's where he seemed more interested in shit-talking and trolling them rather than just efficiently killing them.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Yuki (Aug 22, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Look @Gohara it's pretty straightforward.
> 
> 1) We've got manga evidence of Kizaru being able to hit a tiny key from a reasonably far distance away with his lasers which displays his tremendous accuracy and range of them.
> 
> ...



Plus this manga is for kids as well. Meaning he can't just go round headshotting hundreds of ppl.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 22, 2017)

Gohara said:


> First section:
> 
> -But Kizaru doesn't one shot every character who is weaker than them. In fact even Pre Time Skip Supernovas have withstood multiple lasers from Kizaru, including a significantly battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy.


Which is because of a certain thing called plot. Would you think even for a moment the SN pre timeskip would have survived kizaru if not for the plot? Everybody would have been decimated and the story of the straw hats would have come to an end. This is like saying the monster of the sea can actually kill shanks because he could rip his arm off.We know why it was shown-to have an extremely efficient background storyline for the main character and his inspiration.(Yes and these are not rhetorical because depending on these answers,I will know what your stance is and if you can be convinced)



> -Every character has some degree of one shot ability. I'm not denying that Kizaru has one shot ability. It's just that Aokiji's threshold is higher than Kizaru's. Kizaru has had many opportunities to one shot many characters below Jozu's level and simply has not done it yet at all. Obviously it's easy to say that he could simply shoot them through the head, but sure, that applies to every character. Especially when it's from behind, which is the scenario that we're discussing anyways. If any character is off guard even a Vice Admiral can stab, for example, Zoro in the head and one shot him. Which is why I don't think the head shot point changes my point at all. Aokiji can do the same thing. Outside of head shots, Aokiji has more one shot ability than Kizaru.


There is no degree of threshold higher than or lower than. Well if you have to nitpick,then maybe. But it certainly is not that big of a difference between both of them since the "one-shot" ability you are referring to is essentially the destructive power of both of these guys which is roughly the same. The only difference would be how it interacts with other DF user abilities.



> Second section:
> 
> -Getting lasers through their bodies isn't automatically enough to take them out. Again, far weaker characters than top Yonkou Commander level characters have withstood those lasers.


Through their bodies? Of course not.Through their heads? No one unless the ones stronger than kizaru's DC are going to withstand it.Maybe someone like(but a lot less weaker than) freaking WB who can last for sometime with half his head melted off.


> Third section:
> 
> -Keep in mind that Sea Stone significantly weakens Devil Fruit Users. We're not talking a barely battle worn Marco or anything like that. We're talking about a Marco who not only lacks access to his Devil Fruit Abilities, which is already a somewhat significant reduction in level of power, but a Marco who is significantly weakened by Sea Stone at the time. So unless Marco is many times more powerful than Jozu I don't see how this adds up as superior portrayal for Marco rather than superior one shot ability portrayal for Aokiji. Not to mention even if that were the case, that would just be one less example among hundreds if not thousands.


It doesn't have anything to do with the sea stone. The example I am referring is of marco and him coming in between WB and kizaru.He got the full blast of the attack and had his head and body riddled with holes. *Let me ask you this,if marco did not have regen at that time would he have survived those holes in his head and got back up?*



> Fourth section:
> 
> -That's subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I mean the most distinction that can really be made is Techniques that hit characters and Techniques that defeat characters in other ways, but Aokiji's Devil Fruit if anything would be classified in that section, which would nullify the argument against Jozu in the first place since Jozu's are of the hitting type. Additionally there are plenty of examples that don't include characters with Devil Fruit Abilities like those. Magellan can one shot The Pre Time Skip Blackbeard Pirates but when Sengoku landed a Technique on them they got up. Yet we know that Sengoku is more powerful than Magellan. Some characters simply have more one shot ability than others even when the other characters are more powerful than them.
> 
> ...


No idea what you are referring to over here and which category you think aokiji belongs to.


> Seventh section:
> 
> -But I don't deny that Aokiji can't one shot every character. Also that's more of a comparison of Doflamingo and Jozu. It doesn't add any element to the discussion on Jozu vs. Aokiji. Most characters with any degree of one shot ability have a threshold and characters above that threshold can withstand more Techniques than characters below that threshold. There's no rule that a character has to be far weaker than Aokiji in order to be one shotted by him from behind. We just know that if you're as powerful as Doflamingo's character you have a great possibility of breaking out of the Ice. Which only means that Doflamingo is more powerful than Jozu at most. Something that I'm not disagreeing with anyways. What you're trying to say here isn't unreasonable but it's mostly speculative. We have no idea how much of a gap in power between Aokiji and other characters that there has to be in order for Aokiji to one shot them from behind. Besides one of the points of dispute here is whether that can be used against Jozu so it wouldn't really be any different than the point that started the discussion in the first place. Simply put, I agree that Aokiji has an edge over Jozu, but it can't rightfully be because Aokiji has more one shot ability than Jozu unless we also consider Sugar's character to be the most powerful character in the series, Magellan to be more powerful than Sengoku, Aokiji to be far more powerful than Kizaru, etc..


So,if you know that someone has to be as powerful as doflamingo to have a possibility of breaking out of aokiji's ice and you say jozu isn't at that level,why would in a 1vs1 fight,jozu last more than a couple of seconds,until aokiji uses his first ice attack? Jozu is clearly unable to break out of the ice. So the instant aokiji attacks with his ice attacks,aokiji wins.That is the definition of a low or at max a mid difficulty fight.Which would mean rightfully because of his "one-shot" ability,thus contradicting your own statement.

The sugar and magellan examples are again veering in a different direction. Sugar can turn anything she touches into a toy. Any living thing. Doesn't matter who what or how. For aokiji it is not like that. Because you yourself agree and say that people of doffy's power or above can break out of aokiji's ice.Sugar's abilities are one-shot to whoever she touches aokiji's are not. And the second difference between them both is that sugar has no physical stats to keep up with anybody of the high tiers,hence she is not the most powerful.Aokiji has them.  


Also,I would suggest going through the post @Admiral Kizaru posted by tagging you. Read that and this and especially answer the bolded question in my post.


----------



## Gohara (Aug 23, 2017)

@ zoro.

-The difference between the Kizaru and Shanks examples is that the Shanks scene happens at the very beginning of the series, likely before Oda had any idea what power levels in the series would look like. Oda has stated that One Piece wasn't originally going to be anywhere near as long of a series as it has turned out to be. The Kizaru scenes happen many Arcs into the series and consistently. Again, if you say that Kizaru could have simply used more lasers and defeated The Supernovas if he wanted to but didn't because of plot, I don't disagree with that. However saying that characters only withstood Kizaru's lasers because of plot is opening up a big can of speculation, and again, is an argument that can be made in any power level comparison. Such as the Akainu example that I mentioned to Admiral Kizaru.

-I might think somewhat more of that gap than you do but fair enough for the most part. Either way it still qualifies as an example to convey my point.

-Again, I don't disagree that Kizaru can use head shots, and that if he is successful in connecting the lasers they can one shot almost any if not any character. Just like if Aokiji and any other character use head shots.

-No, I know, but the Marco example that I'm using is when he is in Sea Stone handcuffs. My response to the example that you're referring to is separate from the Marco example that I'm referring to. I'm simply making a point that Jozu is almost certainly > a significantly weakened Devil Fruitless Marco, and that version of Marco has also withstood lasers from Kizaru, whereas Aokiji one shotted Jozu. Both Techniques are used from behind in those examples.

-Here's the thing, though, and I forgot to mention this in my previous post aimed at you. As soon as you start to categorize those Devil Fruits to justify why some Abilities have superior one shot ability to some others even if they're not more powerful Devil Fruits than those Devil Fruits, you also justify my point that Aokiji having superior one shot ability to Jozu =/= being more powerful. Jozu and Aokiji have 2 different types of Devil Fruits, Aokiji's has superior one shot ability, but that doesn't automatically make Aokiji a more powerful character than Jozu overall. Just like having superior one shot Devil Fruits don't mean that for any of the examples that I've named in this discussion. Which is why, even though I don't necessarily disagree with Aokiji being more powerful than Jozu, I disagree with saying “Aokiji is clearly more powerful than Jozu because both used their Abilities from behind and Aokiji's did more”. Every time I bring up an example like the one with Sugar's character, you mention that it's a difference in types of Abilities. Exactly! That's actually one of my points. Characters can have superior one shot ability due to different types of Abilities without being more powerful than other characters. Aokiji's Devil Fruit Abilities might not be stipulation based but that's besides the point, it doesn't need to be an automatic one shot against every character for my point to be the same, it just has to have superior one shot ability to Devil Fruits of characters that Aokiji isn't more powerful than. As for other skills, true, but that's not really what I'm discussing either. Aokiji is insanely powerful because of a combination of excelling in multiple aspects, not just Devil Fruit Abilities, I agree with that. I'm literally only disagreeing with the idea of Aokiji's one shot ability being superior to Jozu's as automatically equating to Aokiji being > Jozu. It might seem strange that I'm discussing all that when I agree that Aokiji has an edge against Jozu, but the reason that I think that it's worth discussing is because for some reason it's a point referenced frequently on this Forum and is often used to take away from Jozu's character.

@ Admiral Kizaru.


Agreed.


Again, I'm not disagreeing that Kizaru's lasers are capable of piercing just about any character that we've seen him match up against so far, if not any character in the series. I'm simply pointing out the characters that have withstood the lasers, not in the sense that they somehow blocked the lasers from piercing them, but simply that even despite the lasers piercing them they weren't unconscious.


Again, I don't disagree with that. It's just, that applies to any character including Aokiji. As such I'm naturally comparing their one shot ability outside of head shots.


Disagreement on where the Admirals rank in comparison to some of the other characters that you mentioned aside, I'm not referring to Kizaru's overall offensive capabilities as much as I am specifically one shot ability. Furthermore, as I said, Kizaru's Devil Fruit Abilities offers a superior variety of advantages that most other Admirals' Devil Fruit Abilities don't. Which is why I still rank his Devil Fruit on par with the other Admirals' Devil Fruits and in some cases even superior.


I don't disagree that if Kizaru wanted to he could have continued going after the other Supernovas if not for being distracted and him not doing so could be because of plot. My disagreement with using plot is specifically in the case of saying things like characters only withstand certain Techniques because of plot. I mean I give Akainu's defense credit where it's due. I don't say that Akainu only withstands those Techniques from Whitebeard because he's one of if not the main Marine antagonist and as such he withstands them due to plot. So I don't think that it's fair to Aokiji to excuse his superior one shot feats compared to Kizaru based on speculation that certain characters have only consistently withstood Kizaru's lasers due to plot. Outside of saying that Kizaru could use more head shots, which again is not what is being discussed here.


Fair enough.

So I don't actually disagree with most of what you're saying. I stand by my argument that Aokiji's one shot ability is superior from what we've seen so far excluding head shots, but I certainly don't disagree that Kizaru's offensive capabilities are some of the best that we've seen so far, and that his Devil Fruit is at least on par with if not superior to Aokiji's overall. I also don't disagree that if Kizaru wanted to he could go for more head shots and in those specific scenarios he has as much one shot ability as any character just like Aokiji.


----------



## g4snake108 (Aug 23, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ zoro.
> 
> -The difference between the Kizaru and Shanks examples is that the Shanks scene happens at the very beginning of the series, likely before Oda had any idea what power levels in the series would look like. Oda has stated that One Piece wasn't originally going to be anywhere near as long of a series as it has turned out to be. The Kizaru scenes happen many Arcs into the series and consistently. Again, if you say that Kizaru could have simply used more lasers and defeated The Supernovas if he wanted to but didn't because of plot, I don't disagree with that. However saying that characters only withstood Kizaru's lasers because of plot is opening up a big can of speculation, and again, is an argument that can be made in any power level comparison. Such as the Akainu example that I mentioned to Admiral Kizaru.
> 
> ...


Well if you agree with everything like aokiji > jozu,aokiji=kizaru and both have the same "one-shot" ability when kizaru is serious and not trolling /PIS-CIS off then the only point that remains to be addressed are the bold ones in your quote to which I am replying.

You look at it from one perspective and are ignoring the other known views. Aokiji > jozu because his attack did more than jozu's is 1 reason for that among many. We know that aokiji is physically a beast and a high tier even without his df abilities.This is generally assumed known knowledge and thus whenever anyone says the above,it has to be taken with the facts that we already have at our disposal which means jozu and aokiji are close enough physically and aokiji using his df abilities has the potential to "one-shot".


----------



## Gohara (Aug 24, 2017)

Fair enough for the most part although I didn't necessarily say the same one shot ability excluding head shots, just that sure, if Kizaru wanted to like any other character he can go for head shots.  Outside of that the only part that I still respectfully disagree about is the idea that it would necessarily be that easy for Aokiji to win in a fair one on one match up.  Jozu has shown that he can match up on par with Aokiji for at least 1-2 chapters so even _if_ Aokiji can one shot Jozu in a fair one on one match up as opposed to doing it from behind Jozu- which is questionable- he seems to have some type of way to prevent it from being that easy.

For now I give Aokiji an edge due to superior versatility.  Not that superior versatility automatically equals being more powerful but there's not much else to compare those characters yet.  Although Lord Cracker is more powerful than I thought that a 3rd Yonkou Commander would be possibly outside of The 3rd Red Hair Commander.  However there's no rule that Jozu has to be more powerful than Lord Cracker.  So Lord Cracker's feats aren't necessarily Jozu's feats.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 24, 2017)

Gohara said:


> So I don't actually disagree with most of what you're saying. I stand by my argument that Aokiji's one shot ability is superior from what *we've seen so far excluding head shots*, .



But why are you excluding headshots though? 

Kizaru is a sniper and has demonstrated top tier accuracy, range and power with his sniping/shooting abilities (see previous post for examples) so it's a valid and perfectly legitimate part of his offensive arsenal to factor in. There aren't many other character's in the OPworld with a similar capability ..... maybe a Beckman or Yasopp at a stretch but they're yet to demonstrate anything in terms of feats even close to comparable to what Kizaru has. It's like saying Mihawk isn't as lethal as Marco if you exclude him cutting people with his sword.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Gohara (Aug 25, 2017)

I'm excluding head shots because anyone can use them.  It would be like if I said an Admiral has superior one shot ability to Augur but then another fan mentions that Augur can one shot anyone in the head, especially in the examples that we're discussion, which is going after characters from behind.  So should I count that as suggesting that Augur and the Admirals have around the same level of one shot ability?  The Admirals can obviously do the same as well.

Plus the specific comparison in question is a comparison in which no head shots are used.  So it makes sense to use examples of the same type of situation.  A character can have superior one shot ability to another character without being more powerful than them overall.  Sort of like how a character with superior offense isn't automatically more powerful than any other character.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Dec 20, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> The commanders win this. Any one of those commanders can stall an admiral. Add an extra one and he tips the balance of whatever fight he joins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




you do realize that fujitora was holding 100 million tonnes of debris in the sky,including pica's statue,fujitora was also holding back,because if he went all out,even the citizens of dressrosa would get killed.
let's see luffy doing that against fujitora who is not holding 100 million tonnes of debris in the sky.
fujitora would destroy cracker.
akainu did face all whitebeard commanders alone ,he did not receive any backup
Squad leaders referring to the Whitebeard division commanders. No other notable marine backing Akainu up. And don't give me that bullshit excuse that Marco and Vista were fighting the other fodder marines next to Akainu! All the attention was focused towards stopping Akainu from getting to Luffy.
admirals have unrivaled endurance,akainu even tanked marco's and vista's attacks (both are top commanders of yonko) without a scratch


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 20, 2017)

Hmm I´ll say the commanders win. Marco is practically even to Kizaru so it likely ends in a double K.O.. Fujitora loses against Cracker and Jozu, there is no way an admiral beats 2 high-end commanders at once. On the other hand Akainu decisively wins against Katakuri. So that leaves Cracker and Jozu vs Akainu with the former 2 winning.


----------



## DoctorLaw (Dec 20, 2017)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Hmm I´ll say the commanders win. Marco is practically even to Kizaru so it likely ends in a double K.O.. Fujitora loses against Cracker and Jozu, there is no way an admiral beats 2 high-end commanders at once. On the other hand Akainu decisively wins against Katakuri. So that leaves Cracker and Jozu vs Akainu with the former 2 winning.



Why do you say Marco and Kizaru are even? 

Fujitora's DF gives him a great counter to Cracker. Cracker's entire army falls to a met or he can blow them all aside with his sideways gravity, or weigh them down rather easily. Jozu, as far as we've seen, has the greatest physical feat, but I don't know how he would deal with the meteor, aside from going diamond. Even then, great pressure crushes diamond, so I think a met or two would still get it done, or intense gravity from Fuji combined with likely superior haki. 

If Fujitora does lose, only one of those commanders is going to make it to Akainu, and I don't see how either one of them can hurt Akainu. He can melt Cracker's biscuits easily, and Jozu will have to get up close and personal with the guy that burned his dad's face off.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 21, 2017)

How do we know that Fujitora's Meteors would destroy all of the Biscuit Soldiers though, and even if so, what if Lord Cracker continues to create more?  And how do we know that the gravity would immobilize the Biscuit Soldiers?  Sabo who Lord Cracker is arguably comparable to was able to maneuver around the gravity.  I see your point on Jozu but maybe Jozu can pick up a significant part of an Island and throw it towards the Meteors to at least offset them significantly?


----------



## Quipchaque (Dec 21, 2017)

DoctorLaw said:


> Why do you say Marco and Kizaru are even?
> 
> Fujitora's DF gives him a great counter to Cracker. Cracker's entire army falls to a met or he can blow them all aside with his sideways gravity, or weigh them down rather easily. Jozu, as far as we've seen, has the greatest physical feat, but I don't know how he would deal with the meteor, aside from going diamond. Even then, great pressure crushes diamond, so I think a met or two would still get it done, or intense gravity from Fuji combined with likely superior haki.
> 
> If Fujitora does lose, only one of those commanders is going to make it to Akainu, and I don't see how either one of them can hurt Akainu. He can melt Cracker's biscuits easily, and Jozu will have to get up close and personal with the guy that burned his dad's face off.



Because Kizaru and Marco fought evenly, simple. Kizaru has also been consistently portrayed with first mates and the admiral rank is similar to that of a first mate in terms of hierarchy.

Fujitora might be able to destroy a lot of soldiers but then Cracker just creates new ones. Also as Gohara said we don´t know if the Gravity will actually weigh them down and I´ll add that for all we know the soldiers can destroy the Meteor with Bretzel Roll (especially if multiple ones go for it). Jozu shouldn´t have any problems with the meteors either. He just hardens his fist with haki and coats it with diamond then he punches them into thousands of pieces. Against the gravity Jozu could always opt to break the ground similarily to what Luffy did against Fuji to escape.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## drew8324 (Dec 23, 2017)

Admirals win


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 25, 2017)

Cracker's abilities are pretty useless against the admirals because of how wide spread they can do damage.

So he's essentially a non factor.  One lazer from kizaru and the fucker passes out.


----------



## drew8324 (Dec 25, 2017)

Canute87 said:


> Cracker's abilities are pretty useless against the admirals because of how wide spread they can do damage.
> 
> So he's essentially a non factor.  One lazer from kizaru and the fucker passes out.



(Ik it was anime only) Kidd blocked a Kizaru laser with just metal. Why couldn't cracker biscuit laced with haki not do as well?

Trust me any 3rd Commander doesnt get body that easy.


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 25, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> (Ik it was anime only) Kidd blocked a Kizaru laser with just metal. Why couldn't cracker biscuit laced with haki not do as well?
> 
> Trust me any 3rd Commander doesnt get body that easy.



anime only kinda kills you there mon ami.

That all depends on how that third commander operates.  In this case it's a matter of  abilities than actual skills.  Cracker's abilities damn near make it impossible for anybody *ON* his level to have any chance of defeating him and charaters simply stronger than him makes him far for accessible to defeat because he IS a one trick pony.  Kiji can flash freeze the biscuits , akainu can met it,  kizaru can spam AOE attacks with utmost ease, fujitora can crumble it.


----------



## drew8324 (Dec 25, 2017)

Canute87 said:


> anime only kinda kills you there mon ami.
> 
> That all depends on how that third commander operates.  In this case it's a matter of  abilities than actual skills.  Cracker's abilities damn near make it impossible for anybody *ON* his level to have any chance of defeating him and charaters simply stronger than him makes him far for accessible to defeat because he IS a one trick pony.  Kiji can flash freeze the biscuits , akainu can met it,  kizaru can spam AOE attacks with utmost ease, fujitora can crumble it.


If an Elephant Gun had Fujitora pushed back (albeit he used no haki) a Kong Gun is atleast x3 stronger as shown how it fared against a Cracker biscuit. Now Remember G4 loses to Cracker without Nami, Cracker is doing just as well against G4 as Katakuri (albeit Kata isn't going all out). Now if Kata should scale equal to under but relatively close to Marco who was fairing well against the Admirals however admittedly weaker I dont see why these Commanders 4th-1st are near comparable.

Cracker doesnt get washed by an Admiral however he isn't gettinf anywhere past a Med diff


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 25, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> If an Elephant Gun had Fujitora pushed back (albeit he used no haki) a Kong Gun is atleast x3 stronger as shown how it fared against a Cracker biscuit. Now Remember G4 loses to Cracker without Nami, Cracker is doing just as well against G4 as Katakuri (albeit Kata isn't going all out). Now if Kata should scale equal to under but relatively close to Marco who was fairing well against the Admirals however admittedly weaker I dont see why these Commanders 4th-1st are near comparable.
> 
> Cracker doesnt get washed by an Admiral however he isn't gettinf anywhere past a Med diff



Fujitora got pushed back by a Gear stacked elephant gun. it only makes sense given the surface area he had to use to block the impact.  He used his sword.

Cracker held off the G3 using multiple arms across a a huge ass shield to absorb 99% of the impact.

Cracker was easily dealt with once luffy started using his head the first time in 11 hours.

G4 doesn't lose to cracker, luffy burns out and loses to cracker. Sad part about this i didn't even see luffy use one blitz move against him.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Dec 31, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> The commanders win this. Any one of those commanders can stall an admiral. Add an extra one and he tips the balance of whatever fight he joins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




"If you mean Akainu then no. Not only did he have half of the marine force but Kizaru was in the area, as well as Aokiji, who froze the water a few pages after that Sakazuki spread to prevent the WB's from fleeing."

you just dont want to admit it,it is clearly  shown in the manga,akainu DID stand against whitebeard pirates by himself, and kizaru was focused on law's submarine and aokiji was in the bay freezing the water to prevent pirates from escaping,akainu was not supported by any marine

"Just because Marco didn't do noticeable damage to an admiral doesn't mean he can't beat one. Akainu and Aokiji fought for 10 days but somehow Marco is expected to bruise them right off the bat."

jozu managed to make aokiji bleed at least,marco could not even scratch an admiral even when he sneak attacked aokiji,the combined attacks of marco and vista could only annoy akainu and did nothing to him.

"You have no manga basis to say an admiral would win 1v1 against a commander with no distractions."

fujitora literally bitchslapped jack,jack only sank ships with fodders with him

"Fujitora got pushed back from a non-serious no-named G3 move while Cracker outright punked a serious Elephant Gun. Lmao at obliterate"

fujitora was holding 100 million tons of debris in the sky at that time ,he was focusing most of this energy on holding all that debris.
fujitora would defeat marco  and all those fodder commanders


----------



## g4snake108 (Dec 31, 2017)

I once made an account,posted in this thread,left this forum for a short while,posted in the OBD section,took a hiatus and then came back.Good to know some things never die...


----------



## Gohara (Dec 31, 2017)

@ shisui.

I get that Akainu confronted those characters but how do we know if he matched up against all of them?  They were standing there as a wall for Akainu to get through.  Maybe not all of them had to do anything.  I'm not making a claim one way or the other but I also see no reason to assume that Akainu clashed with all of them.  Not to mention was there even enough screen time for Akainu to do all that?

We have no idea if Marco was able to bruise Kizaru at all.  It's not like we would be able to see a bruise through Kizaru's clothing.  Not that I'm saying that Marco bruised Kizaru but again there's no way to know one way or the other.  And Marco not doing so in one clash =/= not being able to do so.  If that were the case then we can say that Kizaru can't incapacitate Pre Time Skip Supernovas.  Since he didn't do so in those relatively brief clashes.  Although obviously I don't agree with that.

In any case I see no reason to assume that Kizaru is > Marco.  They clashed evenly until Marco sent Kizaru flying.

We didn't see the Lord Jack match up and furthermore Tsuru and Sengoku were also there.

How do we know how much energy Fujitora needs to hold up a lot of debris?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## DoctorLaw (Dec 31, 2017)

^It probably takes Fujitora little to no energy to hold that debris. He can drop meteors while he’s eating and he held that debris while fighting Luffy and later decided to move it and drop it on a fleet of ships. No other admirals have been shown to be fatigued by using their power so often.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## GucciBandana (Jan 1, 2018)

This is rape.
Akainu himself can fight 3 yonko high commander level characters at the same time.
Aokiji, who has inferior feats during mf compare to kizaru, can fight akainu for 10 days...

one of the strongest yonko commanders like Marco struggles with onigumo who's a VA, yet people believe he has any chance kizaru, who was zapping around wb and by passing wb attacks while countering him.

Marco jozu katakuri and cracker are high tiers, the admirals are top tiers.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## NooksBrigade (Jan 1, 2018)

If Admirals are stronger, how will Sanji/Jimbei defeat them by eos? I mean, by then the SH's top 3 (excluding Luffy) will be at top YC level. 

Also, how were two random civilians Admiral level?? @Fujitora & Greenbull?

Have you seen any Yonko or YC level civilian in all of One Piece?

This just shows that it's the fruit that makes Admirals stronger. But it's the pirates that are the best fighters. Luffy's creativity with the gum-gum no mi is a prime example of this!


----------



## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 2, 2018)

Admirals take this.


----------



## drew8324 (Jan 2, 2018)

NooksBrigade said:


> If Admirals are stronger, how will Sanji/Jimbei defeat them by eos? I mean, by then the SH's top 3 (excluding Luffy) will be at top YC level.
> 
> Also, how were two random civilians Admiral level?? @Fujitora & Greenbull?
> 
> ...



If you think Sanji won't be Top Admiral level EOS you tripping.

Zoro will be Yonkou level

And Luffy will be above Yonkos

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## NooksBrigade (Jan 2, 2018)

drew8324 said:


> If you think Sanji won't be Top Admiral level EOS you tripping.
> 
> Zoro will be Yonkou level
> 
> And Luffy will be above Yonkos



So we will have Sanji Admiral level vs Lafitte also at Admiral level. Then Jimbei Admiral level vs San Juan Wolf at Admiral level as well?

Might as well have everyone at Admiral level by eos going by this logic...

Tbh, you are agreeing with me (Admiral level fighters are more common than Yonko level fighters) so...

This proves my point that normal Admirals can't be stronger than Yonko.


----------



## drew8324 (Jan 4, 2018)

NooksBrigade said:


> So we will have Sanji Admiral level vs Lafitte also at Admiral level. Then Jimbei Admiral level vs San Juan Wolf at Admiral level as well?
> 
> Might as well have everyone at Admiral level by eos going by this logic...
> 
> ...


Why is Jinbe Admiral level??

Sanji grows faster and will be atronger than Jinbe by the end of WCI why is Jinbe relevant with this thread?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## HawkEye13 (Jan 4, 2018)

Answer

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## drew8324 (Jan 6, 2018)

HawkEye13 said:


> Answer



Fighting the ones outside 5th Commander level (normally if say 4th & UP^ but Vista is a STRONG exception.) In sets of 2s or 3s. Oh please is that impressive? Thats like throwing 2 Vergos &1 Smoker in sets individuals 3s at Akainu, of course he is gonna 1shot them. I doubt any of them where Chinjao(old Coliseum sharp head) or Perspero-Compote level. Only Commanders that count are like 4th- Commander and Up

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 7, 2018)

HawkEye13 said:


> Answer


Moments later he gets half the Marine force present as backup.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## HawkEye13 (Jan 7, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> Moments later he gets half the Marine force present as backup.


Yes, some fodders

Nice try Erkan

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 7, 2018)

Y


HawkEye13 said:


> Yes, some fodders
> 
> Nice try Erkan


You say that as if the other commanders besides Marco and Vista aren't fodder. I'm not Erkan btw...

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 8, 2018)

Emperor Whitebeard said:


> Moments later he gets half the Marine force present as backup.



akainu did not get any support from marines,commanders are nowhere near admirals,akainu effortlessly negated marco's and vista's haki attacks,they could only annoy akainu


----------



## Emperor Whitebeard (Jan 8, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> akainu did not get any support from marines,commanders are nowhere near admirals,akainu effortlessly negated marco's and vista's haki attacks,they could only annoy akainu


I never claimed the commander are equal to the Admirals. I also gave the win to the admirals in this thread. What the other poster presented as evidence however, cannot be used as such. It's a fact Akainu only fought the commanders for a brief amount of time before getting reinforcements.

The fact that he was able to bypass one attack means nothing really. Whitebeard himself couldn't connect twice against Kizaru and Aokiji, but slams Akainu later on. And Marco by himself connected with Kizaru and Aokiji without any issues. Akainu's haki should be around the same level as his fellow Admirals'. There could be several explanation as to whether they couldn't connect, but that is irrelevant to the thread now and I don't want to delve on them now. Point is, the fact that he blocked one attack doesn't mean much in the grand scale of things.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 15, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> The commanders win this. Any one of those commanders can stall an admiral. Add an extra one and he tips the balance of whatever fight he joins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



fujitora would obliterate cracker,all fujiotra needs to do is simply gravity crush cracker,and cracker obviously cant even take a scratch,also fujiotra with his meteor would effortlessly destroy all the biscuit soldiers.

sorry but admirals >>>>>commanders
even the combined attacks of marco and vista could only annoy akainu,
lol what is katakuri going to do to admirals?
if a scrub like sanji could dodge katakuri's attacks,then there is no doubts that kizaru would speedblitz him for days

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 16, 2018)

GucciBandana said:


> This is rape.
> Akainu himself can fight 3 yonko high commander level characters at the same time.
> Aokiji, who has inferior feats during mf compare to kizaru, can fight akainu for 10 days...
> 
> ...


struggles?

The dude had two lzers in his chest and onigumo came up from behind him and unlike the dumbass ronse didn't fucking announce to the entire marineford that he was going to attack him.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 18, 2018)

Gohara said:


> @ shisui.
> 
> I get that Akainu confronted those characters but how do we know if he matched up against all of them?  They were standing there as a wall for Akainu to get through.  Maybe not all of them had to do anything.  I'm not making a claim one way or the other but I also see no reason to assume that Akainu clashed with all of them.  Not to mention was there even enough screen time for Akainu to do all that?
> 
> ...




jack fought only fujitora he did not fight tsuru and sengoku.

If tsuru would have fought jack,it would have been the end of jack as a pirate(read about her devil fruit)

and sengoku does not even care about pirates as we have seen in dressrosa

so yeah he fought only fujitora,pretty sure it was an easy win


----------



## Gohara (Jan 18, 2018)

It has yet to be shown who Lord Jack matches up against.  It's only stated that he confronts ships that include Fujitora, Sengoku, and Tsuru.  It's just as possible as if not even more reasonable that at least Fujitora and Sengoku if not them and Tsuru teamed up because it benefits none of them for Lord Jack to destroy those ships and having those ships destroyed is detrimental to The Marines.  Sengoku has bias towards Law so not going after Law and his allies =/= him not caring about Pirate characters at all, and it's also a different circumstance if Pirates are trying to destroy ships that Sengoku is on.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 20, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco > Admiral = Jozu > Thatch > Vista > Ace
> Ace can hang with an admiral but of course loses.
> 
> Vista and Ace together can probably beat an admiral with mid diff.




Thatch was a commander of  4th devision,doesn't mean that he was stronger than Vista.Ace was commander of 2nd devision,amd yet he was weaker than Jozu and arguably Vista.The point is,there is no fucking way that someone lick Thatch could hold of someone like Sengoku even for a minute.and lol vista and ace can mid difficulty akainu?are you stupid?
akainu fodderized ace like nothing,and the combined attacks of marco and vista could only annoy akainu.
It has been stated by Oda that all the Whitebeard commanders, no matter which division they are leading, are all equal in rank and the division number does not indicate their strength.so your arguement falls apart.
Just tell me,based on what was Thatch top commander?When I say top commander,I mean based on strenght,not on the number of their devision.If Oda wanted to make 7th,11th i 16th commanders to be the strongest,he could have,but he didn't,probably in order not to confuze the readers.The point is,we don't know how strong Thatch was,and you can't claim that he is top dog.thatch even got killed by a pre yami yami no mi blackbeard,so yeah he does not seem to be that strong


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 20, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> When talking about commanders ITT I am talking about top commanders like Vista, Marco and Jozu. You can't find a panel of an admiral overpowering them even though they had extended exchanges. Marco even outright overpowered Kizaru.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



go read chapter 580 again,benn beckman is still there pointing the gun at kizaru,and kizaru ignored his threats and attacked law's submarine,what was benn beckman doing there?


----------



## Gohara (Jan 20, 2018)

^But if you look at the panel when Kizaru lands back on the ship Beckman isn't on the ship and only a few pages after that is half way across Marineford.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jan 21, 2018)

NooksBrigade said:


> If Admirals are stronger, how will Sanji/Jimbei defeat them by eos? I mean, by then the SH's top 3 (excluding Luffy) will be at top YC level.
> 
> Also, how were two random civilians Admiral level?? @Fujitora & Greenbull?
> 
> ...



The characters get stronger as the story progresses. Luffy at the beginning of this series, as strong as he was to reach 100 million, was at best a gag yonkou crew member’s 3rd minion with a weird power that gets highlighted in a low budgeted filler section. Now he’s slugging it out with Lord Dogtooth, and escaping clashes with Yonkou with just his pride injured.

And even still SHs have beaten opponents as a team before. Moria, Pacifista, etc; 

I have no doubt EOS Sanji is strong enough to at least hurt Kizaru for real. Give him a teammate or two with the right support, and we have ourselves a fight.


----------



## Gohara (Jan 21, 2018)

I think that what Nooks is suggesting is that Yonkou First Mates will likely be comparable to Prime Sanji's and Prime Jinbe's characters and in some cases superior.  If Sanji's character matches up against Kizaru then what does that say about Yonkou First Mates?

I think that's the point that Nooks is making.  But that assumes that Sanji's character will match up against Kizaru.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 28, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Thatch was a commander of  4th devision,doesn't mean that he was stronger than Vista.Ace was commander of 2nd devision,amd yet he was weaker than Jozu and arguably Vista.The point is,there is no fucking way that someone lick Thatch could hold of someone like Sengoku even for a minute.and lol vista and ace can mid difficulty akainu?are you stupid?
> akainu fodderized ace like nothing,and the combined attacks of marco and vista could only annoy akainu.
> It has been stated by Oda that all the Whitebeard commanders, no matter which division they are leading, are all equal in rank and the division number does not indicate their strength.so your arguement falls apart.
> Just tell me,based on what was Thatch top commander?When I say top commander,I mean based on strenght,not on the number of their devision.If Oda wanted to make 7th,11th i 16th commanders to be the strongest,he could have,but he didn't,probably in order not to confuze the readers.The point is,we don't know how strong Thatch was,and you can't claim that he is top dog.thatch even got killed by a pre yami yami no mi blackbeard,so yeah he does not seem to be that strong


That's the thing though, Thatch was a core member of the crew, meanwhile Ace was a late addition who filled a missing commander spot. If we got a new commander, if the whitebeards had got another commander before ace was captured, he'd fill the Thatch position even if he was the weakest commander. In verse it doesn't mean anything but as far as the series it kind of does. Ace was filling a spot while Thatch had his spot already. Thatch also was portrayed as one of the core Whitebeard commanders.

Overall it goes Whitebeard, Marco, Jozu, Thatch, Vista, Ace, then people like Blamenco.

Sengoku isn't all that strong in old age, I don't think Thatch could defeat him but hold him off? Sure.

You underestimate what two top tiers can do honestly, if Doflamingo teamed up with Luffy, they would be able to defeat Akainu.

Ace was clashing well enough with Aokiji, what defeated Ace was Ace using his own body as a human shield to block Luffy. Akainu is stronger than Ace but Ace is still a top tier who teamed up with Vista (another inferior but still top tier) could defeat Akainu.

The oda quote is kind of irrelevant though, considering we've seen a clear Marco > Jozu > Vista scale.

Thatch was specifically shown off heavily in Ace's backstory as a core member of the crew, doing stuff like mentoring Ace in a fight against the Decalvan Brothers (who are second to squard of the whitebeard allies outside of old allies like the minks and oden)

You seem to be forgetting something, Thatch wasn't defeated, he was assassinated. Thatch had recently gotten the yami yami no mi then a seemingly significant amount of time happened between getting it and his untimely death, enough time for him to actually be the owner of said fruit but not enough for him to genuinely train it up. We know that the yami yami no mi increases the amount of damage that is done to the user and we also know that Thatch was in the rain, face first into the ground (on his front, not his back)
We also see a stab wound on his back. From this we know he wasn't actually defeated, he was actually back stabbed in the rain (which offered increased stealth both visibly, sound wise, and less people were probably about since it was night time and raining, most were away inside sleeping)
Further proof to Thatch having recently eaten it is the fact that Blackbeard killed him at all instead of simply taking the fruit from him and sneaking away.

Thatch was backstabbed, not defeated. We also have to realize that this Blackbeard had also given Shanks a permanent scar without stealth being included.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 1


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 28, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Akainu is stronger than Ace but Ace is still a top tier who teamed up with Vista (another inferior but still top tier) could defeat Akainu.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## zoro_santoryu (Jan 28, 2018)

The 13th amendment clearly says its illegal to own a group of grown men.

all jokes aside admirals win mid difficulty


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 29, 2018)

Ace is borderline Doflamingo level and Vista is stronger.

Ace has the aoe to handle an admirals large aoe.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 29, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Ace is borderline Doflamingo level and Vista is stronger.
> 
> Ace has the aoe to handle an admirals large aoe.



Also, how is this thing 17 pages?


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 29, 2018)

Jigen said:


> Also, how is this thing 17 pages?


Because people are delusional enough to believe that 3 admirals can take down multiple top tiers (3-7ish depending on the crew), and a lot of high tiers.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 29, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Because people are delusional enough to believe that 3 admirals can take down multiple top tiers (3-7ish depending on the crew), and a lot of high tiers.


Nobody believes that.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 29, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Nobody believes that.


People here believe that Akainu can solo the entire whitebeard commanders.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 29, 2018)

Good to see you're back PwnGoat. @Erkan12 was getting lonely. 




PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> People here believe that Akainu can solo the entire whitebeard commanders.



This statement is not related to your earlier one.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 29, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> People here believe that Akainu can solo the entire whitebeard commanders.


That is true.


----------



## MO (Jan 29, 2018)

the admirals wins the first one but lose the bonus.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 29, 2018)

Dunno said:


> That is true.


Cringe 
Disgusting


----------



## Dunno (Jan 29, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Cringe
> Disgusting


----------



## Zoro20 (Jan 29, 2018)

Admirals has always been a very good deal ahead of yonko commanders
Admirals are at the same level of yonko
Yonko commanders can give them a good fight but they will lose at the end
adding doflamingo doesn't help that much against real top tiers


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jan 30, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> People here believe that Akainu can solo the entire whitebeard commanders.



Are you saying the WB commanders have 3-7 top tiers?

And Akainu can certainly solo all of the WB commanders.

He had absolutely no problem ignoring Vista and Marco when they attacked him, and at some point they all got in his way to stop him from getting to Luffy. The painful surgery Luffy went through is proof that they couldn't stop him from brute forcing his way past them, why wouldn't we believe he couldn't beat them all at once? 

Marco is closest to top tier out of the WB pirates, and he's just strong enough to avoid being killed by an admiral while being unable to deal really any damage.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 30, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> fujitora would obliterate cracker,all fujiotra needs to do is simply gravity crush cracker,and cracker obviously cant even take a scratch,also fujiotra with his meteor would effortlessly destroy all the biscuit soldiers.
> 
> sorry but admirals >>>>>commanders
> even the combined attacks of marco and vista could only annoy akainu,
> ...


Fujitora could barely handle a non-serious G2/3 Luffy and had to resort to his fruit to get an advantage. Contrast this to Cracker who demolished a serious G2/3  Luffy 

Show me a panel of Kizaru blitzing a top tier commander I'll wait Besides the AoE that is not relevant to top tier fights that get concluded in cqc what do they have above Kata? COO???COA???? Na son try again. The fact that he can even do the same logia type trick to dodge haki attacks should have indicated to you that admirals are top Commander level like I've been saying for years.



DoctorLaw said:


> Are you saying the WB commanders have 3-7 top tiers?
> 
> And Akainu can certainly solo all of the WB commanders.
> 
> ...


What damage did he do to Vista and Marco????

*''The painful surgery Luffy went through is proof that they couldn't stop him from brute forcing his way past them''*
That's why he couldn't touch Luffy after the WB pirates got in the way??


----------



## Gohara (Jan 30, 2018)

Luffy withstands many wounds throughout those Arcs so I don't see how that at all suggests that Akainu bests all of those Yonkou Commanders.  Those Yonkou Commanders being > Akainu doesn't necessarily mean that all of their techniques connect.  So I also don't see how Akainu withstanding and/or avoiding Vista's and Marco's slashes at all suggests that he can best them and a lot of other Yonkou Commanders combined.  Neither Kizaru nor Marco have any wounds from their match up so I respectfully disagree with the implication that Marco didn't do anything to Kizaru while Kizaru has a significant upper hand.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 30, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Are you saying the WB commanders have 3-7 top tiers?
> 
> And Akainu can certainly solo all of the WB commanders.
> 
> ...


Whitebeard had 5 before Thatch died.
4 after Ace died
WB commanders means wb crew so I won't remove Marco just cuz he's the captain now.

Marco was clashing with Akainu equally multiple times.
Vista and Marco hurt Akainu, this is fact, you can't debate this. 

Marco alone stopped akainu from brute forcing his way through, ie the clashes where it was literally 1 v 1 for a few clashes. The whitebeard pirates plus crocodile lined up as a symbolic gesture that they were keeping the future alive through Luffy after Ace died. Akainu stopped to watch them, then attempted to get through, he defeated the bobbin of the commanders pretty much (would we say doflamingo can solo the strawhats if he one hit nami or chopper?) and then Marco clashed with him. Then 14 pages later Sengoku roared off a command to the marines to push forward and pretty much support Akainu who was outnumbered. 

Marco is top tier
Jozu is top tier (even with one arm)
Thatch was top tier
Vista is top tier
Ace was top tier (low top tier like doflamingo)

Marco is just strong enough to avoid being killed by an admiral while being unable to deal really any damage? Marco was equalizing if not beating Kizaru before stuff like seastone and distractions started happening.
Jozu was stand stilling Aokiji until he got distracted
Vista was stand stilling Mihawk
~~~~~~~~~~

BM has arguably more than 7 top tier depending on how strong characters like Daifuku end up being. Though realistically Perospero, Compote, Katakuri, Smoothie, Cracker, Snack, and maybe Streusen are the top tiers of the big mom pirates, albeit they are  pound for pound weaker top tiers, Marco can defeat the strongest one among them but there are more of them.

~~~~~~~~~

Kaidou has probably 4 actually, not 3. Maybe more but Calamities and Drake.

~~~~~~~~~~

Not sure about Blackbeard.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 30, 2018)

Zoro20 said:


> Admirals has always been a very good deal ahead of yonko commanders
> *Admirals are at the same level of yonko*
> Yonko commanders can give them a good fight but they will lose at the end
> adding doflamingo doesn't help that much against real top tiers


What the literal fuck.

I guess Marco is stronger than Yonkou leveled since he was beating Kizaru's ass in.

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 30, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco was clashing with Akainu equally multiple times.
> Vista and Marco hurt Akainu, this is fact, you can't debate this.
> 
> Jozu is top tier (even with one arm)
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 30, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Whitebeard had 5 before Thatch died.
> 4 after Ace died
> WB commanders means wb crew so I won't remove Marco just cuz he's the captain now.
> 
> ...



marco and vista could not injure akainu,if akainu was injured,then he should not have been able to reform his body.


also mihawk was toying with vista,mihawk is yonko level as seen when he rivaled shanks back when he had two arms.if you notice ,the mihawk vs vista fight, Mihawk was paying more atention to Luffy then to the battle.

also akainu got backup only from fodder marines


----------



## Kai (Jan 30, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> also mihawk was toying with vista,


Mihawk is definitely not Yonko level if Marco relegated fighting him to Vista. However I'd say Mihawk being a solid Admiral level is a decent bet.



			
				shisuiuchiha5 said:
			
		

> mihawk is yonko level as seen when he rivaled shanks back when he had two arms.


Shanks was not a Yonko yet good sir.

Reactions: Neutral 1


----------



## Raiden34 (Jan 30, 2018)

This ''Marco couldn't injure Akainu'' is a dumb argument. As if Akainu could injure Marco in return.


----------



## Soca (Jan 30, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> This ''Marco couldn't injure Akainu'' is a dumb argument. *As if Akainu could injure Marco in return.*



What's the argument that he can't?


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Jan 30, 2018)

Marcelle.B said:


> What's the argument that he can't?


You would think he'd be able to piece together that the whole point of having regenerating powers is to heal injuries you know the very thing that defines Marco.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jan 30, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Whitebeard had 5 before Thatch died.
> 4 after Ace died
> WB commanders means wb crew so I won't remove Marco just cuz he's the captain now.
> 
> ...



I don’t think Thatch or Ace are top tier. We don’t know much about how Thatch died, but he didn’t rank any higher than Jozu or Marco. Ace is strong, but he was still young, and WB had no problems dodging all his attacks only just a year ago. If a top tier logia gets the drop on you, they should do what Aokiji or Kizaru did, massive damage. It was sort of for comic relief I understand, but nonetheless Ace wasn’t close to WB’s league


----------



## Luke (Jan 30, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco is top tier
> Jozu is top tier (even with one arm)
> Thatch was top tier
> Vista is top tier
> Ace was top tier (low top tier like doflamingo)



What in the actual fuck? 

How on earth are you coming to the conclusion that Thatch was a top tier? We literally don't know anything about him except for the fact that he was killed by Pre-Yami Blackbeard. 

Vista's very strong, but he's not a top tier in my book, although I know there's some people who will disagree with me. Simply put, Mihawk complimenting him after a short skirmish is not enough for me to put him with the strongest characters in the series. 

Now Ace is just not a top tier. He's powerful, sure, but come on. The same Blackbeard who got embarrassed by a Whitebeard who was literally on the brink of death - as in moments away from dying, as in half his face is gone and his abdomen has been melted, as in this is his last stand because he's actually about to die - defeated Ace. Unless you think an extremely handicapped, ill, deathbed level Whitebeard is strong enough to destroy fellow top tiers, I don't see how this makes any sense.


----------



## Raiden34 (Jan 31, 2018)

Marcelle.B said:


> What's the argument that he can't?


The same thing. People say Marco can't injure Akainu based on what we've seen on the manga, but in return they believe Akainu can injure Marco even though they can't show a single instance that he can actually injure him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 31, 2018)

Kai said:


> Mihawk is definitely not Yonko level if Marco relegated fighting him to Vista. However I'd say Mihawk being a solid Admiral level is a decent bet.
> 
> 
> Shanks was not a Yonko yet good sir.



what makes you think shanks wasnt a yonko by the time he met luffy?

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Raiden34 (Jan 31, 2018)

A Yonko has no business in East Blue, I am pretty sure Shanks was just traveling the four seas before he takes the grand line and new world in a serious way. It was 12 years ago, it's a very low possibility that he was a Yonko at the time when he met with Luffy.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 31, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> A Yonko has no business in East Blue, I am pretty sure Shanks was just traveling the four seas before he takes the grand line and new world in a serious way. It was 12 years ago, it's a very low possibility that he was a Yonko at the time when he met with Luffy.



Not exactly true. He went back to see Makino again.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 31, 2018)

Luke said:


> What in the actual fuck?
> 
> How on earth are you coming to the conclusion that Thatch was a top tier? We literally don't know anything about him except for the fact that he was killed by Pre-Yami Blackbeard.
> 
> ...


He was backstabbed by Blackbeard soon after he (thatch) had eaten the Yami Yami no Mi, thus increasing the amount of pain/damage that would do.

Overall Doflamingo is considered low top tier by people, Ace is around there, Vista and Thatch are a bit higher.

Blackbeard vs Ace was a close fight that was concluded with a final dbz aoe power struggle. 

Whitebeard destroyed Akainu with some damage to his own well being and I consider Akainu > Blackbeard (then) and Ace

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 31, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> He was backstabbed by Blackbeard soon after he (thatch) had eaten the Yami Yami no Mi, thus increasing the amount of pain/damage that would do.
> 
> Overall Doflamingo is considered low top tier by people, Ace is around there, Vista and Thatch are a bit higher.
> 
> ...



it was never confirmed if thatch even ate the yami yami no mi.

you really think whitebeard destroyed akainu?whitebeard could not even scratch akainu in 1 vs 1,he had to sneak attack akainu when he was fighting marco,and yet akainu melted half of his skull,akainu then tanked his island splitting quake,and then proceeded to solo 12 commanders + shichibukai ,while whitebeard got easily defeated by pre timeskip blackbeard pirates who ran away from akainu in 1 vs 9 situation,inspite of blackbeard having yami yami no mi + gura gura no mi + jail manager of impel down + impel down's most dangrous criminals.

whitebeard even with his strongest attacks failed to kill akainu,Not once after he got back up did he indicate that he had a single broken bone, let alone half dead lmao.Old Whitebeard did nothing to Akainu, he didn't even break a single bone.

keep thinking a man who couldn't even last 1 day against some marines would defeat a man who lasted (and won) after 10 days against an admiral.

you realize Akainu can fight for ten days at least, and Whitebeard tapped out after a few hours right? And btw, Akainu took enough damage to permanently scar himself and he still fought for days. The Admirals were beyond old Whitebeard. Easily.

Really the idea that the Yonko are above the Admirals is just complete garbage. Point to me one instance of the Yonko fighting for more than even 1 day, let alone 10. Aokiji and Akainu permanently scarred each other. Whitebeard did nothing to either of them.

So let’s summarize- Akainu takes much more severe injuries than Garp, doesn’t bandage himself or take a single break before going to solo B.B.s crew.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 31, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> then proceeded to solo 12 commanders + shichibukai



Never happened.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 31, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> I don’t think Thatch or Ace are top tier. We don’t know much about how Thatch died, but he didn’t rank any higher than Jozu or Marco. Ace is strong, but he was still young, and WB had no problems dodging all his attacks only just a year ago. If a top tier logia gets the drop on you, they should do what Aokiji or Kizaru did, massive damage. It was sort of for comic relief I understand, but nonetheless Ace wasn’t close to WB’s league


We know a lot, it's just that it's shown and not told.
He was on his belly with a stab wound in his back.
We know now that you can put a devil fruit into a nearby fruit of it's type if you kill the host.
We knew his body was found in the rain on the dock.

Therefore we know he had eaten the yami yami no mi and that's why he was killed. Ultimately he was stabbed in the back while the rest of the people on the ship were inside.

I mean Ace was only Jinbei leveled when Whitebeard beat him down, Ace just on a portrayal and feat level was much stronger. Whitebeard could still stomp Ace if Whitebeard was old and in good shape and he'd still win otherwise, however Ace is still around Doflamingo leveled and if he paired up with someone like Vista, he could overwhelm someone stronger than him and Vista, but not Yonkou strong. Someone who both individuals can hang with for a while but who can't defeat, 2 v 1 changes that in their favor.

Aokiji's attack on Jozu was hax and not raw strength based, Jozu who was not using his diamond fruit or busoshoku to resist, had his bones and muscles frozen into (ie why he lost them), it wasn't just "oh no, ice covered my arm, I can't push through 20 pounds of ice but I just lifted a glacier that is trillions of tons". If any person got hit by that attack with no defense (be it logia or something else), they'd have suffered equal amounts of damage. Just like if Whitebeard was hit by Law, he'd be cut in half (the halfs would still beat law's ass but still) and how gamma knife outside of being a healer like marco, a logia (maybe it still works on them), or being doflamingo where your fruit lets you stitch yourself back together, just outright beats you.
You also realize that Aokiji was made weaker cqc (probably as a in-verse counter to his devil fruit being too hax) than Kizaru and Akainu while in cqc, meanwhile that's where Jozu is strongest. Aokiji had to physically touch Jozu to do what he did, aoe nukes weren't cutting it and were only resulting in a standstill and Jozu had dominance between the two as a cqc fighter. 

As for Kizaru, eh, even without healing Marco would have got up and pushed himself to keep fighting, he was shot a few times but top tiers have handled that. In the case of Vista and Marco hitting Akainu, they made him hurt but the attacks were blunt based, which all top tiers have been able to handle. Like Doflamingo being hit by g4, Akainu would have arguably been less hurt against a g4 hit than the marco and vista unnamed attacks. And when Jozu hit Aokiji, it was a blunt strength attack, ie no hax involved.

Aokiji realistically couldn't land his hax techniques on any of these characters (since thatch, vista, and ace will have backup) and Marco along with Jozu have shown they can repel straight assaults from these characters.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 31, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> marco and vista could not injure akainu,if akainu was injured,then he should not have been able to reform his body.
> 
> 
> also mihawk was toying with vista,mihawk is yonko level as seen when he rivaled shanks back when he had two arms.if you notice ,the mihawk vs vista fight, Mihawk was paying more atention to Luffy then to the battle.
> ...


Wrong, just wrong.

Marco and Vista DID hurt him, they were straight attacks though and not hax so Akainu wasn't defeated. Akainu was objectively hurt, top tiers are just tanks. Doflamingo is weaker than everyone being mentioned here and he took g4 hit after g4 hit before he went down yet you are trying to discredit Marco for not one hitting Akainu with an unnamed attack? BS

Akainu was hurt, he was shaking, he was gritting his teeth, he groaned in pain, then complained about them being haki users, this isn't up to debate, he was hurt, just not maimed/defeated.

"Mihawk was toying with Vista"
I'll turn that around on you: Vista was toying with Mihawk

Vista was equally as casual with Mihawk as Mihawk was with him, also they both had won a point off each other based on their grading system. Sorry, Vista is Mihawk leveled and no level of Mihawk wank will change that.

Mihawk was Shanks rival when Shanks was a mid or high tier, like 20 years ago.

Arlong was beating Luffy's ass 3ish years ago, guess Arlong will be stronger than pirate king leveled when Luffy becomes pirate king because somehow you think Mihawk being Shanks rival when Shanks was a scrub means he's yonkou leveled.

Vista and Mihawk were both equally displayed both in skill and in their demeaner.

Ultimately you are calling 1000's of vice admirals fodder, but okay.

Not that it mattered, Akainu didn't even confront them for more than 2 minutes.

Maybe you should retire from posting, you are wrong like 3 times just in this post on pretty simple things.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 31, 2018)

Broken link


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 31, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Wrong, just wrong.
> 
> Marco and Vista DID hurt him, they were straight attacks though and not hax so Akainu wasn't defeated. Akainu was objectively hurt, top tiers are just tanks. Doflamingo is weaker than everyone being mentioned here and he took g4 hit after g4 hit before he went down yet you are trying to discredit Marco for not one hitting Akainu with an unnamed attack? BS
> 
> ...





20 years ago or more,Shanks was a scrubb on Roger's crew and did not even reach his prime,also why would their fighting "echo through whole Grand line" if they were both mid tier ,low tiers or rookies ?Even WB said that their fights were legendary. Those fights stopped around 12 years ago,but they didn't start while Shanks was on Roger's crew.

vice admirals are shit if you compare them to whitebeard commanders


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 31, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> 20 years ago or more,Shanks was a scrubb on Roger's crew and did not even reach his prime,also why would their fighting "echo through whole Grand line" if they were both mid tier ,low tiers or rookies ?Even WB said that their fights were legendary. Those fights stopped around 12 years ago,but they didn't start while Shanks was on Roger's crew.
> 
> vice admirals are shit if you compare them to whitebeard commanders


Shanks hasn't fought Mihawk since before he lost his arm, which was when Luffy was 7.
The sea is big and big fights are rare, so we are looking at around 20 years. 

Those fights stopped around 12 years ago? No, because Shanks and Mihawk didn't fight the day before he lost his arm.

Just check out the difference between how Shanks and his crew looked when they met Luffy vs them at Marineford.
The difference is huge, just like how the gap between pre timeskip Luffy and post timeskip Luffy is huge. 

Mihawk is still a top fighter in the world just like the top commanders, he's just not a yonkou. Shanks was just a mid or high tier when he saw kid Luffy. Still venturing out in his pirate career.


----------



## Kai (Jan 31, 2018)

Akainu not being hurt at all by Marco and Vista's attack is one of the more ridiculous claims I've seen on here.

Why the hell would Akainu complain about them being Haki users then? Because he was unfazed whatsoever by their attack?


Come on now

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dunno (Jan 31, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Wrong, just wrong.
> 
> Marco and Vista DID hurt him, they were straight attacks though and not hax so Akainu wasn't defeated. Akainu was objectively hurt, top tiers are just tanks. Doflamingo is weaker than everyone being mentioned here and he took g4 hit after g4 hit before he went down yet you are trying to discredit Marco for not one hitting Akainu with an unnamed attack? BS
> 
> ...


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 31, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Fujitora could barely handle a non-serious G2/3 Luffy and had to resort to his fruit to get an advantage. Contrast this to Cracker who demolished a serious G2/3  Luffy
> 
> Show me a panel of Kizaru blitzing a top tier commander I'll wait Besides the AoE that is not relevant to top tier fights that get concluded in cqc what do they have above Kata? COO???COA???? Na son try again. The fact that he can even do the same logia type trick to dodge haki attacks should have indicated to you that admirals are top Commander level like I've been saying for years.
> 
> ...



First of all,Luffy caught fujitora off guard,also fujitora did not use any haki when Luffy  caught him off guard.

When fujitora used haki,he could easily deal with Luffy in gear 3.

Also you do realize that fujitora was focusing most of his energy in holding all the rubble of dressrosa, obviously Luffy was going to push him back,and it only left a small dirt mark which is nothing.he caught fujitora off guard and fujitora did not even use haki

Fujitora would demolish cracker.all fujitora needs to do is gravity crush cracker,and cracker can't do a shit.since cracker obviously can't even take a scratch, gravity crush would be enough  to kill him,also with 1 meteor  fujitora would demolish all the biscuit soldiers of cracker .

Also fujitora was holding back ,because if he were to go all out,even the citizens of dressrosa would get hurt etc etc

cracker stands absolutely no chance against admirals.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jan 31, 2018)

Kai said:


> Akainu not being hurt at all by Marco and Vista's attack is one of the more ridiculous claims I've seen on here.
> 
> Why the hell would Akainu complain about them being Haki users then? Because he was unfazed whatsoever by their attack?
> 
> ...


> Visibly is shaken by the attack
> Gritting teeth while they attack
> Groans in pain
> Complains about them being haki users

"Akainu wasn't hurt at all"


There is a difference between memeing a character like Usopp and Urouge (who is still around Luffy leveled realistically) to god tier, however this is just delusional. These people don't care about the facts, they care about wanking admirals.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jan 31, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> > Visibly is shaken by the attack
> > Gritting teeth while they attack
> > Groans in pain
> > Complains about them being haki users
> ...




Akainu was not shaking in pain at all,he is groaning to show that he was only irritated a little by thier attacks,even akainu himself stated that thier attacks only irritated him a little.they surprise attacked akainu and still could not even scratch him.

All of the admirals were above old whitebeard easily


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 1, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Akainu was not shaking in pain at all,he is groaning to show that he was only irritated a little by thier attacks,even akainu himself stated that thier attacks only irritated him a little.they surprise attacked akainu and still could not even scratch him.
> 
> All of the admirals were above old whitebeard easily


No one agrees with you for a reason, Akainu was hurt from that attack, this is such a simple thing.

He was shaking, when the attack happened.
He was gritting his teeth
He was groaning in pain
He also complained about them being haki users

Sorry but you aren't going to debate against factual information just because you like Akainu a lot. I should be laughing at you for trying to pull such a shitty argument, Akainu was objectively hurt and in pain, against two unnamed attacks. (albeit by surprise)

"All of the admirals were above old whitebeard easily"
Then why did Old Whitebeard beat Akainu after he was stabbed, had a heart attack, akainu got a free shot mid heart attack, he was ganked by a squad of vice admirals, etc?

Shitfaced post heart attack old WB beat Akainu, who is arguably the strongest admiral.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 1, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> No one agrees with you for a reason, Akainu was hurt from that attack, this is such a simple thing.
> 
> He was shaking, when the attack happened.
> He was gritting his teeth
> ...



Whitebeard could not lay a finger on akainu.he had to sneak attack akainu when he was fighting against Marco and yet lost half his skull.lol
Akainu's attacks were what killed whitebeard

Akainu tanked his island splitting quake and was still perfectly fine.

whitebeard even with his strongest attacks failed to kill akainu,Not once after he got back up did he indicate that he had a single broken bone, let alone half dead lmao.Old Whitebeard did nothing to Akainu, he didn't even break a single bone.the dude got back up and kept on fighting like nothing happened

keep thinking a man who couldn't even last 1 day against some marines would defeat a man who lasted (and won) after 10 days against an admiral.

you realize Akainu can fight for ten days at least, and Whitebeard tapped out after a few hours right? And btw, Akainu took enough damage to permanently scar himself and he still fought for days. The Admirals were beyond old Whitebeard. Easily.

Really the idea that the Yonko are above the Admirals is just complete garbage. Point to me one instance of the Yonko fighting for more than even 1 day, let alone 10. Aokiji and Akainu permanently scarred each other. Whitebeard did nothing to either of them.

So let’s summarize- Akainu takes much more severe injuries than whitebeard, doesn’t bandage himself or take a single break before going to solo B.B.s crew.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 1, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Whitebeard could not lay a finger on akainu.he had to sneak attack akainu when he was fighting against Marco and yet lost half his skull.lol
> Akainu's attacks were what killed whitebeard
> 
> Akainu tanked his island splitting quake and was still perfectly fine.
> ...


"had to"
You mean after WB got stabbed by squard, had a heart attack, akainu got a free shot where he pumped lava into whitebeard's heart, got ganked by like 10 vice admirals who were armed with bazookas, swords, guns, etc etc. That WB? Also I think he was hit by a kizaru laser as well.

Nope, WB in old age was well above the admirals and he dropped akainu in 2 hits.

More severe injuries to WB? WB was literally shot 152 times, 267 blade wounds, and 46 cannonballs. He was hit multiple times by Akainu and Kizaru each, and he had a fucking heart attack. Oh and whatever Blackbeard did to him.

But hey, pretend Akainu took more.

You're betting on a losing horse, no one in this forum will hold back laughter at a claim like Akainu and the admirals being over old whitebeard.

With 2 hits Akainu was on the ground face first defenseless, a 3rd or 4th hit would have killed him and Akainu couldn't do anything to avoid it. WB beat Akainu objectively, he just didn't continue cuz it was a war and not a battle.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 13, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> "had to"
> You mean after WB got stabbed by squard, had a heart attack, akainu got a free shot where he pumped lava into whitebeard's heart, got ganked by like 10 vice admirals who were armed with bazookas, swords, guns, etc etc. That WB? Also I think he was hit by a kizaru laser as well.
> 
> Nope, WB in old age was well above the admirals and he dropped akainu in 2 hits.
> ...



Whitebeard even with his strongest attack failed to permanently  scar akainu,he could not even break a single bone.

While akainu despite being sneak attacked with a full rage earthquake still managed to melt whitebeard's head.

Look at aokiji's body after his fight against akainu,almost his entire right side of his body is heavily scarred with burn marks and also his left leg has been reduced to a stump.

Whitebeard failed to permanently injure any of the admirals like how akainu did to aokiji.

And also gunshots cannon balls and sword cuts are mosquito bites.

Akainu did the most damage to whitebeard,he poured lava into his chest and melted his face and therefore killed whitebeard.


----------



## Raiden34 (Feb 13, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Whitebeard even with his strongest attack failed to permanently  scar akainu,*he could not even break a single bone.*
> .


How do you know that? Did you see Akainu's x-ray?

Sanji was able to keep fighting against Vergo and Bon Kurei with cracked bones and even defeated Bon Kurei and Jyabura, he didn't lose his ground and he didn't go hiding like Akainu did. If WB didn't crack a single bone from Akainu and if Akainu still goes into hiding that wouldn't make any sense.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 13, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Whitebeard even with his strongest attack failed to permanently  scar akainu,he could not even break a single bone.
> 
> While akainu despite being sneak attacked with a full rage earthquake still managed to melt whitebeard's head.
> 
> ...


Stop making shit up, Whitebeard who was old, sick, was backstabbed by a giant sword through the chest by his strongest ally of the time, had a heart attack, was ganked by tons of vice admirals, akainu got a free chance to pump lava into his chest (heart) mid heart attack.
That's the whitebeard that two hits Akainu.

Akainu vs Aokiji = 10 day fight

No they aren't mosquito bites, they don't work on Luffy or admirals without haki but no sword cuts/stabs, cannon balls, and gunshots aren't irrelevant, I'd argue that Jack's cannonballs he hit zunisha with are stronger than an akainu named attack even.

Stop trying to hype up Akainu for getting a hit in when whitebeard was literally mid heart attack. Whitebeard would have survived if he hadn't decided to fight on his own and blackbeard didn't show up, his wounds before that point weren't death leveled at all.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 21, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Why are you acting like his healing factor is somehow a ticking timebomb or something, it's something he has OVER them. When his healing factor is done, he'll still be at 100% like how they started the fight.
> 
> If this was marco, jozu, and katakuri then maybe you'd have a point, but cracker being added on will make that admiral who is double teamed lose quickly and then it is 4 v 2.
> Are you ignoring the fact that Cracker is also in this fight?
> ...



Marco overpowered kizaru's defense and he still could not injure him.

And cracker? fujitora would stomp cracker as well.his durability is a joke,he literally got one shotted by Luffy in gear 4.if fujitora would gravity crush cracker,it will be more than enough to defeat him

Once marco reaches the limit of his regeneration,kizaru would stomp marco.marco's durability without his devil fruit is trash.when he was being lasered by kizaru,he was even struggling to walk and even struggled to stand  properly.and Marco's regeneration reached it's limit within only a few hours in the war.later on he was fully covered in bandages which means that his regeneration already reached it's limit.


Jozu is a very heavy guy so yeah all fujitora needs to do is to just pin him down with gravity and drop a meteor on fujitora and jozu also gets defeated

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 22, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Marco overpowered kizaru's defense and he still could not injure him.
> 
> And cracker? fujitora would stomp cracker as well.his durability is a joke,he literally got one shotted by Luffy in gear 4.if fujitora would gravity crush cracker,it will be more than enough to defeat him
> 
> ...


Could no injure him? Where would the injury come from? Maybe a bruise on the arm under Kizaru's shirt? His attack didn't go through the defense and hit Kizaru in the face, it simply displaced him with extreme power towards the ground and Kizaru turned to light to avoid the crashing damage, the only spot he hit Kizaru was on the arm when Kizaru blocked and then pushed Kizaru to the ground. No damage would have occurred except maybe Kizaru getting an arm bruise at the most. 

G3 Luffy overpowered Fujitora and Luffy used his strongest attack to date on Cracker, he wasn't able to land any kong organs (rapid fire kong guns) and stuff and Cracker is exceptionally fast. Anyway just raw gravity won't stop cracker, cracker isn't a mid tier, Ishoo would have to do stuff like throw meteors at Cracker who can avoid them and his biscuit soldiers can probably repel them (maybe at the expense of a shield that can be reformed)
Meanwhile Kizaru would be getting ganked by a barrage of biscuit soldiers who have powerful sword thrusts.

"Once Marco reaches the limit of his regeneration....."
That's so stupid, holy shit. Marco is a top tier zoan WITH regeneration, regeneration isn't a weakness, it gives him an edge over Kizaru. Kizaru has 100 hp, Marco has 1000+ hp, you can't just go "oh once his regeneration runs out"
Kizaru has NO regeneration, while Kizaru is trying to hurt Marco, Marco will be trying to hurt Kizaru. Marco is literally a Kizaru'ish leveled character, who ALSO has regeneration. Also Marco's durability without his devil fruit is trash? Lol what? He's a zoan so he's a physical fighter, he has intangibility for long ranged attacks, he has flight, he's a top tier, and he without a doubt doesn't have trash durability, that's pure fanfiction, it's just stupid to say.

Marco has taken lasers through his undefended body (no buso or devil fruit active), he's clashed with Akainu, he's had half a face at one point, etc. Marco's durability is arguably stronger than Kizaru even if you take out regeneration, stop making shit up to justify your bias, nothing implies Marco is anything but an absolute tank who also has regeneration, strong physical strength, flight, top tier stats, and intangibility. 

A meteor and a few extra pounds isn't doing shit to Jozu:


Ishoo's gravity isn't "oh he can just completely paralyze any top tier he wants", he can't just gravity rush whitebeard and walk up casually to defeat them. Do you honestly think Jozu will have trouble lifting himself? Lol.
Meteors were taken out by Doflamingo and Law on a semi regular basis:


Meteors will be lawled away by Jozu iand Jozu would just slam right through Ishoo like glass.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Kai (Feb 23, 2018)

To Marco naysayers. Someone explain to me how Marco isn't Admiral level based on the grounds of this.

When the Marineford War started with all top tiers on both sides and no official engagements between characters, what is literally the first thing Marco does after the opening sequence?

*He goes after Kizaru, and not only that but is the first to start any official fighting between characters.* Literally he is the first one to make an official move, and what does he do? He goes after an Admiral in the first minute of war.

Yet he's NOT Admiral level?


----------



## Quipchaque (Feb 23, 2018)

Kai said:


> To Marco naysayers. Someone explain to me how Marco isn't Admiral level based on the grounds of this.
> 
> When the Marineford War started with all top tiers on both sides and no official engagements between characters, what is literally the first thing Marco does after the opening sequence?
> 
> ...



Well to be fair Marco could also just be cocky or delusional. After all he is guy who expected to just fly up to Garp and Sengoku and quickly grab Ace without any interference whatsoever. Still I agree that the Marco downplay is bad. I have no issue with people claiming Kizaru or Fujitora could be stronger than Marco that´s absolutely possible.

However what I find ridiculous is when those same people start to claim that Marco is not only weaker than those characters but barely on par with them. Heck some consider him only a high-tier. Like wtf a few years ago we were sitting here debating if Doflamingo is potentially a low top tier (which could still be argued both ways) and now suddenly Marco who is noticably stronger is somehow a high-tier? That´s so disrespectful.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 23, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Well to be fair Marco could also just be cocky or delusional. After all he is guy who expected to just fly up to Garp and Sengoku and quickly grab Ace without any interference whatsoever. Still I agree that the Marco downplay is bad. I have no issue with people claiming Kizaru or Fujitora could be stronger than Marco that´s absolutely possible.
> 
> However what I find ridiculous is when those same people start to claim that Marco is not only weaker than those characters but barely on par with them. Heck some consider him only a high-tier. Like wtf a few years ago we were sitting here debating if Doflamingo is potentially a low top tier (which could still be argued both ways) and now suddenly Marco who is noticably stronger is somehow a high-tier? That´s so disrespectful.


They see Marco get blindsided and think it's a sign of weakness but the same people don't follow that logic when their golden boy Zoro got outright defeated by the yeti cool brothers (marco was only hurt some)

They also try to paint Marco as someone who can only hang on due to regeneration and that anyone can beat him given time despite him being a yonkou first mate who is arguably the strongest of the yonkou first mates + he is a top tier zoan with flight and intangibility. 

People like to shit on the whitebeard pirates cuz they got cheated in marineford and they are too stupid to realize that.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Dries Mertens (Feb 23, 2018)

All Yonko crews >>> All Yonko > All Admirals > All commanders


----------



## TheWiggian (Feb 23, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> They see Marco get blindsided and think it's a sign of weakness but the same people don't follow that logic when their golden boy Zoro got outright defeated by the yeti cool brothers (marco was only hurt some)
> 
> They also try to paint Marco as someone who can only hang on due to regeneration and that anyone can beat him given time despite him being a yonkou first mate who is arguably the strongest of the yonkou first mates + he is a top tier zoan with flight and intangibility.
> 
> People like to shit on the whitebeard pirates cuz they got cheated in marineford and they are too stupid to realize that.



Ok let's consider Zoro lost. Then let's also consider Luffy had to flee from Monet, let's consider that Big Mom can't defeat W3 member's, let's consider that the WB Commander's couldn't stop Akainu advancing backed up by fodder Marines, let's consider that Shanks got his arm bitten off by a EB fodder fish that EB Luffy one shotted, let's consider that Snack was recruited by Urouge, let's consider that Sanji been 1 shot by Doflamingo, let's consider that Mihawk is the WSS and therefore stronger than Shanks, let's consider that Big Mom can't fight for longer than a couple of hours before she starts to starve and dies, let's consider that Katakuri is stronger than Perospero and Luffy want to defeat the 2nd son not the first one.

I can increase the amount of examples. Funny is that you are the one who starts criticising and flaming the Zoro fans and we are the ones that are bad.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## oiety (Feb 23, 2018)

Yonko=Admirals>Commanders

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 23, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> Ok let's consider Zoro lost. Then let's also consider Luffy had to flee from Monet, let's consider that Big Mom can't defeat W3 member's, let's consider that the WB Commander's couldn't stop Akainu advancing backed up by fodder Marines, let's consider that Shanks got his arm bitten off by a EB fodder fish that EB Luffy one shotted, let's consider that Snack was recruited by Urouge, let's consider that Sanji been 1 shot by Doflamingo, let's consider that Mihawk is the WSS and therefore stronger than Shanks, let's consider that Big Mom can't fight for longer than a couple of hours before she starts to starve and dies, let's consider that Katakuri is stronger than Perospero and Luffy want to defeat the 2nd son not the first one.
> 
> I can increase the amount of examples. Funny is that you are the one who starts criticising and flaming the Zoro fans and we are the ones that are bad.


Consider? He objectively lost.

Also you're just proving my point, I'm not claiming that Yeti Cool Brothers > Zoro, I'm claiming that blindside is exceptionally dangerous for characters, especially when hax is involved. Doflamingo would have lost against Law outright if he couldn't stitch his internals together, that would imply Law could one hit Whitebeard with a free hit. 

Marco was only ever hurt by blind sides and was never defeated by it.

Akainu and Marco clashed equally, the whitebeard pirates lining up was symbolic storytelling, it was plot related. Also "fodder", the weakest people there were literally captains at the least, there were likely 100's of vice admirals there. Marco is admiral level, sorry.

Mihawk = Vista
Urouge recruiting Snack was a hypothesis

Like what are you doing? Just insulting me in a weak attempt to win the debate that you're losing and know you're wrong about? Those are just stupid things to say, are you that desperate to beat me and shit on Marco?

I used Zoro as evidence to point out my argument that Marco being hurt by blindsides has no relation to his actual strength at all, especially since he was fine after said attacks. You're just being a little bitch, you should quit this forum if you can't properly debate.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## HawkEye13 (Feb 24, 2018)

He's a fanboy of a Pedo. That says it all


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 24, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> No one agrees with you for a reason, Akainu was hurt from that attack, this is such a simple thing.
> 
> He was shaking, when the attack happened.
> He was gritting his teeth
> ...




Did Akainu bleed?No.Did he had scars?No.Did it take him long to recover?No. He said:Haki users,huh?How annoying.He was not injured,just annyoed.He did feel it,but it was like a pitch to  was unnamed HAKI attacks,which is like a whole other level of attacks.


----------



## Dries Mertens (Feb 24, 2018)

It really depends on where Mihawk stands


----------



## Dunno (Feb 24, 2018)

Dries Mertens said:


> It really depends on where Mihawk stands


Why would the difference between Admirals and Yonkou FMs depend on Mihawk?


----------



## Dries Mertens (Feb 24, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Why would the difference between Admirals and Yonkou FMs depend on Mihawk?


It was a joke post hahaha


----------



## Dunno (Feb 24, 2018)

Dries Mertens said:


> It was a joke post hahaha


----------



## Dries Mertens (Feb 24, 2018)

Dunno said:


>


Nice Garp avy btw

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 24, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Could no injure him? Where would the injury come from? Maybe a bruise on the arm under Kizaru's shirt? His attack didn't go through the defense and hit Kizaru in the face, it simply displaced him with extreme power towards the ground and Kizaru turned to light to avoid the crashing damage, the only spot he hit Kizaru was on the arm when Kizaru blocked and then pushed Kizaru to the ground. No damage would have occurred except maybe Kizaru getting an arm bruise at the most.
> 
> G3 Luffy overpowered Fujitora and Luffy used his strongest attack to date on Cracker, he wasn't able to land any kong organs (rapid fire kong guns) and stuff and Cracker is exceptionally fast. Anyway just raw gravity won't stop cracker, cracker isn't a mid tier, Ishoo would have to do stuff like throw meteors at Cracker who can avoid them and his biscuit soldiers can probably repel them (maybe at the expense of a shield that can be reformed)
> Meanwhile Kizaru would be getting ganked by a barrage of biscuit soldiers who have powerful sword thrusts.
> ...



luffy owerpowered fujitora when he was focusing most of his energy in holding all the rubble of dressrosa.

marco's regeneration ran out after a few hours of fighting in the war,and later on was completely covered in bandages,indicating that his regeneration has already reached it's limit.

how is marco going to last against an admiral for 10 days when his regeneration ran out after a few hours only?

cracker is shit,doflamingo is stronger than cracker.

Doflamingo has a huge range,superior speed,can fly and a lot better endurance and durability than Cracker.

cracker's biscuits are not going to do anything to kizaru,kizaru would destroy all those biscuit soldiers with his lasers


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 24, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> luffy owerpowered fujitora when he was focusing most of his energy in holding all the rubble of dressrosa.
> 
> marco's regeneration ran out after a few hours of fighting in the war,and later on was completely covered in bandages,indicating that his regeneration has already reached it's limit.
> 
> ...


How is he going to last 10 days against an admiral? Well if you take out Garp and Kizaru blindsiding Marco or hitting him when he had seastone on, he wasn't hit a single time in marineford, being a zoan top tier, he should be able to fight for 10 days even without using his regeneration. How will they last 10 days against him though? His zoan boost allows him to match up against big fist akainu attacks and overpower kizaru, this means he has the cqc advantage against kizaru and aokiji, he when not blindsided has the ability to turn intangible, this means that ranged aokiji, akainu, and kizaru attacks aren't going to do anything to him. What does that leave? The admirals would have to cqc Marco where he has the advantage over 2 of them and Jinbei was able to fight for 5 days against Ace and Marco is lightyears above Ace when he was jinbei leveled (who was arguably weaker than he is now) while Ace was much stronger and was still quite weaker than marco.

This all includes Marco not using awakened zoan which we know he has, which would give him the advantage over akainu in cqc.

Cracker has an army of g3 luffys, faster speed, he was never hit once outside of a trick that dished out stronger damage than a king kong gun, and his buso is stronger than doflamingo. 

Kizaru's lasers aren't kong gun leveled to even destroy the shield, I can see a barrage destroying a shield and a biscuit soldier given a continous stream, but he's not going to just one hit them with lasers lol, meanwhile the rest will gank him if he tries that though. (including cracker)

Anyway aokiji has the worst matchup and is the one who would lose more so than kizaru who could probably use his high speeds to edge out.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 24, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Did Akainu bleed?No.Did he had scars?No.Did it take him long to recover?No. He said:Haki users,huh?How annoying.He was not injured,just annyoed.He did feel it,but it was like a pitch to  was unnamed HAKI attacks,which is like a whole other level of attacks.


Did Akainu bleed? He's a logia, nor is blood needed to be damaged, he groaned in pain, was shaking, and complained about them being haki users
2) Did he have scars? Maybe? We don't know. Did Marco have scars despite being shot by Kizaru while he had seastone on, etc. 
3) He was injured, objectively, it took aokiji 10 days to defeat akainu yet you're trying to low ball marco and vista for not dropping akainu with unnamed cutting attacks when akainu is a logia. Would you have preferred if akainu died and wasn't able to fight luffy down the line? Is Aokiji not admiral level because he took 10 days and still didn't put akainu down? Is akainu not admiral level cuz he got heavily injured and took 10 days to defeat someone who apparently isn't admiral leveled? (aokiji)

The fact is that top tiers are tanks, doflamingo was overall fine after a kong gun to the face and that's a named busoshoku attack, does that mean that doflamingo is stronger than g4 Luffy? No. 

He was hurt, he just wasn't outright maimed because it was one attack each and the attacks were not hax based. He felt it, it was more than a pinch (I think that was what you were implying), it just didn't outright defeat akainu. Nor could Akainu do any more damage to Marco with an unnamed blindside attack.

Aokiji took Jozu's arm due to hax, he froze Jozu's arm internally with a blindside when he wasn't diamond and didn't have buso up, this would arguably even do the same thing to logia. It is like a gamma knife, however g3 Luffy punching doflamingo with a free red hawk thanks to law teleporting him didn't put doflamingo down.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 24, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Well if you take out Garp and Kizaru blindsiding Marco or hitting him when he had seastone on, *he wasn't hit a single time in marineford*.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 24, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> I never debated with a retarded baboon like you in the first place. You just act as if you know anything about One Piece even more than the author himself.
> 
> Marco is admiral level but there is no indication that he can defeat any of them, you can write walls of text about how you believe he is, if the manga contradicts it, it means nothing.
> 
> ...


There is no indication that an admiral can beat him without Marco being distracted or another character putting seastone handcuffs on him (and kizaru STILL didn't win)

The only feat we have is Marco overpowering Kizaru's defense and clashing equally with akainu.

I get it, you are gay for the admirals, but you're wrong. You result to insults and try to claim that because I got one hypothesis wrong, I'm not right in a completely different debate, that's fucking retarded. 

You should be banned.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 24, 2018)

He did high speed rotations to create a vacuum of wind to stop the attack meant for whitebeard by kizaru.
He was intangible when he was flying at Kizaru casually and kizaru was shooting beams at him (he wasn't displaced, nor did he suffer any physical pain like when he was hit other times before healing, meaning marco was intangible)

The only times he was hit was when he was turned away to worry about whitebeard, when he got handcuffed with seastone by onigumo with a blindside, and when he was flying and garp blindsided him.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 24, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> He did high speed rotations to create a vacuum of wind to stop the attack meant for whitebeard by kizaru.
> He was intangible when he was flying at Kizaru casually and kizaru was shooting beams at him (he wasn't displaced, nor did he suffer any physical pain like when he was hit other times before healing, meaning marco was intangible)
> 
> The only times he was hit was when he was turned away to worry about whitebeard, when he got handcuffed with seastone by onigumo with a blindside, and when he was flying and garp blindsided him.





PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> There is no indication that an admiral can beat him without Marco being distracted or another character putting seastone handcuffs on him (and kizaru STILL didn't win)


That's because for some odd reason, Kizaru thought it would be a good idea to leave Whitebeard's right hand man sitting around, instead of shooting him in the head or decapitating him with a light saber. Kind of like how Akainu aimed for Whitebeard's chest instead of going for a headshot, how Sengoku called in random mooks to finish off Whitebeard instead of letting a living volcano do it, how Kizaru shot the key instead of Luffy or Ace...you get the idea.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 24, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> That's because for some odd reason, Kizaru thought it would be a good idea to leave Whitebeard's right hand man sitting around, instead of shooting him in the head or decapitating him with a light saber. Kind of like how Akainu aimed for Whitebeard's chest instead of going for a headshot, how Sengoku called in random mooks to finish off Whitebeard instead of letting a living volcano do it, how Kizaru shot the key instead of Luffy or Ace...you get the idea.


It's waht happened in the manga, also there is nothing suggesting he left him sitting around. Sorry but Kizaru couldn't defeat marco in seastone handcuffs.

Sengoku didn't call in random mooks, whitebeard was ganked by 1000's of people during marineford and he was without a doubt superior to akainu.

Luffy key thing you're right on, that's plot armor for the main character, albeit for Ace I think it's cuz they wanted to make a showing of it. I mean an execution = punishment for a crime
While shooting him in the head with a laser is kind of inhumane and wouldn't look good on the world government.

Anyway the simple fact is that marco wasn't hit a single time in marineford outside of being blindsided by attacks or being in seastone, even though characters like akainu went at him seriously.

Have you ever considered that if you look at marineford objectively instead of trying to downplay the whitebeard pirates, you'd know what you are talking about?


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 25, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> How is he going to last 10 days against an admiral? Well if you take out Garp and Kizaru blindsiding Marco or hitting him when he had seastone on, he wasn't hit a single time in marineford, being a zoan top tier, he should be able to fight for 10 days even without using his regeneration. How will they last 10 days against him though? His zoan boost allows him to match up against big fist akainu attacks and overpower kizaru, this means he has the cqc advantage against kizaru and aokiji, he when not blindsided has the ability to turn intangible, this means that ranged aokiji, akainu, and kizaru attacks aren't going to do anything to him. What does that leave? The admirals would have to cqc Marco where he has the advantage over 2 of them and Jinbei was able to fight for 5 days against Ace and Marco is lightyears above Ace when he was jinbei leveled (who was arguably weaker than he is now) while Ace was much stronger and was still quite weaker than marco.
> 
> This all includes Marco not using awakened zoan which we know he has, which would give him the advantage over akainu in cqc.
> 
> ...



Kizaru's lasers are strong enough to destroy the *Yarukiman Mangrove* in Shabaody island,pretty sure not even a  kong gun would destroy it.

aokiji would easily freeze all of cracker's biscuit soldiers and would defeat him easily.

Only thing Cracker has over Doffy is defense and Armament haki. Doffy is faster,has huge range,can fly,has Conquerors haki,and is massivly more durable and enduraned.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 25, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Kizaru's lasers are strong enough to destroy the *Yarukiman Mangrove* in Shabaody island,pretty sure not even a  kong gun would destroy it.
> 
> aokiji would easily freeze all of cracker's biscuit soldiers and would defeat him easily.
> 
> Only thing Cracker has over Doffy is defense and Armament haki. Doffy is faster,has huge range,can fly,has Conquerors haki,and is massivly more durable and enduraned.


The further we get into one piece, the less impressive those feats actually are, at best one biscuit soldier can take the blow and it wouldn't effect the others and cracker. In the end I think kaidou will show some impressive top tier feats and that stuff like marineford and before will be retconned to make more logical sense considering high tiers can destroy mountains and stuff.

"easily freeze all", that's a moot point, that's like saying "lucci shigan to the throat" to anyone, it doesn't work like that, cracker is a top tier who is actually arguably on katakuri's level (his bounty didn't reflect his true power)

Doflamingo is not faster.
Making biscuit soldiers who can run around the island independent of his control who are his mindless soldiers is how cracker uses ranged attacks, automatons, so no cracker has greater range than doflamingo, albeit it's created soldiers instead of just shooting a laser very far. Also what range feats does doflamingo even have besides bird cage? I can't think of a single attack that went impressively far at all, it just sounds like a fake criteria because you are desperate to give doflamingo the edge over cracker.
Flight won't matter all that much.
Haoshoku is cool but cracker's biscuit soldiers won't be effected, nor will he. 
Durable and endurance is cool and all, but it won't stop him from dying or losing when he's ganked by 10 biscuit soldier swords.

It's really as simple as this:


Meanwhile in Dressrosa:


Cracker > Boundman Luffy > Doflamingo

It's not really even a debatable topic, Doflamingo only survived 10 minutes of g4 because Luffy thought he was defeated.
Cracker fought Luffy for 12+ hours with help from an army of homies that would help him when he's out of g4 (cuz he was no match out of g4) and nami to soften them up both for combat purposes and so luffy could physically eat them.

G4 Luffy speedblitzed the hell out of Doflamingo and Cracker not only could cut g4 Luffy, but he could damage g4 even without a direct cut like in the panel above on luffy's right cheeck.

Cracker wins mid diff at most by the pure fact that he can best G4 Luffy while doflamingo couldn't.

Anyway Cracker said he hates pain, it's not like he'd actually lose to someone like chopper hitting him though, it was just that he hates pain. He's not a tank clearly but doflamingo isn't going to hit him anyway but even if he did, it wouldn't outright beat cracker. Honestly the biscuit soldiers alone could beat doflamingo even without cracker getting involved.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 25, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Sorry but Kizaru couldn't defeat marco in seastone handcuffs.



So, this is > Admirals even with cuffs on? Wow, Marco must be PK or Zunisha tier then tbh. 


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Sengoku didn't call in random mooks



You're right, Sengoku obviously called in an elite squad that was better equipped to finish off Whitebeard than a magma man who permanently changed half the climate of an island.


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Anyway the simple fact is that marco wasn't hit a single time in marineford


Once again:

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 25, 2018)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> So, this is > Admirals even with cuffs on? Wow, Marco must be PK or Zunisha tier then tbh.
> 
> 
> You're right, Sengoku obviously called in an elite squad that was better equipped to finish off Whitebeard than a magma man who permanently changed half the climate of an island.
> ...


He was in seastone handcuffs and still was fine after getting pieced by two lasers, even though another character had to help by putting the seastone on him.

Everyone went at whitebeard, sorry but akainu can't beat an army of vice admirals even if he can beat a vice admiral easily. I mean sengoku's order was literally "everyone gank him", which includes lower ranked akainu.

Whitebeard beat akainu despite said injuries, a heart attack, etc, so clearly it was a useful team gank.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 26, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Unnamed attack
> 2) Akainu failed to defeat Aokiji for 10 days, meaning Admiral > Akainu > Aokiji, right?
> 3) Akainu: "ugh", physically shaking in pain in the above panel, and complaining about the pain.
> 
> Try again.



This is one of the biggest exaggerations I've ever read. Shaking? Where? Gritting his teeth in pain? That's literally the same facial expression he always has. The guy calls two top Commander's surprise attacks "irritating" then starts conversing with them about Ace's impending death. Less than a minute later he's bypassed them while looking same as ever.

If Vista's remotely close to Admiral Marco, yes I do. They just saw Ace get merked and desperately struck the surprised Akainu with killing intent. Jozu was off guard when Aokiji easily froze him. Marco was off guard when Kizaru casually shoots him twice leaving him in agony (plot convenience stopped him from doing more damage). The Admirals have a wealth of killing blows - what does Marco have?

If Marco is too stingy to pull out his strongest attacks even after watching Ace and WB get brutalized then I'm not holding out on him having stronger attacks. Oda would effectively be retconning Marco if he does now.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 26, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> This is one of the biggest exaggerations I've ever read. Shaking? Where? Gritting his teeth in pain? That's literally the same facial expression he always has. The guy calls two top Commander's surprise attacks "irritating" then starts conversing with them about Ace's impending death. Less than a minute later he's bypassed them while looking same as ever.
> 
> If Vista's remotely close to Admiral Marco, yes I do. They just saw Ace get merked and desperately struck the surprised Akainu with killing intent. Jozu was off guard when Aokiji easily froze him. Marco was off guard when Kizaru casually shoots him twice leaving him in agony (plot convenience stopped him from doing more damage). The Admirals have a wealth of killing blows - what does Marco have?
> 
> If Marco is too stingy to pull out his strongest attacks even after watching Ace and WB get brutalized then I'm not holding out on him having stronger attacks. Oda would effectively be retconning Marco if he does now.



Shake lines: Around his hole body when the attack actually hits him, he's also pushed back a bit as evidenced by his lean.
Gritting his teeth: In the top picture, he's grinding/gritting his teeth in pain.

He was admitting he wasn't having an easy time, he also groaned in fucking pain before saying it.



Jozu was hit with a hax ability, Aokiji's ability requires you physically touch someone who is undefended, and if he does he freezes your arm internally (which is why jozu who lifted up a glacier the size of marineford couldn't break out of it, it wasn't just a casual encasing of ice, he froze into jozu's bone and muscle, freezing them as well, there isn't a way to get out of that, whitebeard would have lost an arm with the same technique), jozu would normally be able to protect himself against such an attack with busoshoku and turning his body to diamonds. But hey, continue to compare unnamed cutting attacks versus an ability that was hax. Doflamingo gets hit by smoke gas by the yeti cool brothers and he passes out, he gets hit by a surprise attack by sanji and he'd not even feel it despite sanji being > yeti cool brothers. So why is it suddenly a massive dehype that marco with an unnamed cutting claw and vista with a regular sword attack doesn't do as much damage (damage is without a doubt done, akainu was without a doubt feeling it, just not enough to beat him) as a hax ability. Fucking yeti cool brothers beat zoro with hax and they are weaker than him, fucking law would beat whitebeard with a successful gamma knife, aokiji used hax, vista and marco used basic attacks.

"leaving him in agony", you're saying I'M EXAGGERATING, holy fucking shit, in agony? Lol fucking hell, IN AGONY~!~!
marco was just as hurt against the kizaru hit as akainu was, the difference being that marco healed from it while akainu just fought through the pain cuz this is fucking one piece and sanji hopping around in the air a few seconds after having his leg bone nearly broken in half and milk heals luffy's teeth and bones, and luffy had his arm nearly cut a 3rd in in the first part of the cracker fight but he kept fighting for 13 or 16 or whatever more hours.

Marco has intangibility from non buso attacks
Marco has flight
Marco has a zoan boost that allowed him to physically overpower Kizaru
Marco has regeneration that gives him the ability to be hit 100x more than any character he will be fighting so he can afford to trade blows and still win with a lot of health left.
Marco has high levels of flight speed

Any ranged attack from an admiral is useless and Marco has the edge on any admiral not named akainu up close (and only cuz of his big lava fists) and they are pretty equal in that front, so marco would overpower kizaru and especially aokiji up close, he also would be able to trade blows with akainu to outlast him.

I also expect Marco and Akainu to be stronger post timeskip due to their character progression (marco to being forced to be captain and defending everyone and combating whitebeard and akainu to fleet admiral)


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Feb 26, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> The further we get into one piece, the less impressive those feats actually are, at best one biscuit soldier can take the blow and it wouldn't effect the others and cracker. In the end I think kaidou will show some impressive top tier feats and that stuff like marineford and before will be retconned to make more logical sense considering high tiers can destroy mountains and stuff.
> 
> "easily freeze all", that's a moot point, that's like saying "lucci shigan to the throat" to anyone, it doesn't work like that, cracker is a top tier who is actually arguably on katakuri's level (his bounty didn't reflect his true power)
> 
> ...




how is cracker on the same level as katakuri?
how is someone like katakuri even going to match kizaru?
sure katakuri's observation haki is great,that is if he is fast enough to attack and dodge kizaru.

I mean even sanji managed to dodge katakuri,if sanji could dodge katakuri,then I have no doubts that kizaru would speedblitz him for days.

kizaru can literally travel at the speed of light,katakuri even with his high level observation haki would have no chance against kizaru.

Even Ichiji managed to hit katakuri .


----------



## Kai (Feb 26, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> kizaru can literally travel at the speed of light,katakuri even with his high level observation haki would have no chance against kizaru.


His light travel has been stopped by jamming a sword in his path and we've witnessed this twice, once by a man who hasn't picked up a blade in decades who in his old age would still be considered Yonko first commander/mate level. 

AKA Katakuri/Marco level.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 26, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> how is cracker on the same level as katakuri?
> how is someone like katakuri even going to match kizaru?
> sure katakuri's observation haki is great,that is if he is fast enough to attack and dodge kizaru.
> 
> ...


Cracker vs Katakuri:
Cracker likely has superior buso
Cracker's bounty which most people use to put Cracker as the 3rd strongest of the 4 sweet commanders (including snack) doesn't reflect his power since it's based on him being in a biscuit soldier and not him outside fighting alongside other biscuit soldiers. The marines weren't aware of his true self.
Sure it took Luffy getting future sight kenbunshoku to put him on a similar level of being on the losing side but still being able to fight side of the battle for a long period of time vs katakuri, however Nami and an army of homies helped Luffy out while Luffy vs Katakuri is a 1 v 1. Nami allowed Luffy to be able to eat and fight weakened/softened biscuit soldiers while the homies would keep luffy and non haki (between g4 uses) Luffy alive.


Katakuri has shown haoshoku haki, busoshoku mastery that surpasses the supercharged busoshoku hardening of poundman so he'd be able to physically hit Kizaru and possibly overpower him as far as buso is concerned, he has a degree of soft intangibility that can be used alongside his future sight kenbunshoku, he has awakening, and a few other things.

Honestly the way I view it: Marco > Kizaru > (minor difference) Cracker and Katakuri

Kizaru's light speed is very much up to question as Rayleigh has tagged him, however even the guy with the cat theme in all black who was a butler that luffy fought in east blue was able to move at speeds that the eye couldn't see, light speed is impressive but it's not as outlier as you make it seem. Also if kizaru CAN move at the speed even, his reaction time and perception of time have been shown to not be nearly that good as he's been shown caught unaware by sub light speed attacks and he has to load up light speed by creating a path that can be damaged. I mean if we go by the notion that kizaru is truly light speed all around, he'd solo the entire one piece, naruto, and bleach verses at once.

I mean m3 were able to disarm and throw aokiji up into the air when he wasn't going all out (even though aokiji won in the end), so I wouldn't put too much weight on surprise attacks. In the end ichiji lost (I think ichiji is top commander leveled and is the strongest, even stronger than judge who mid diff'd sanji) pretty quickly, in the end even g4 Luffy at the wedding lost pretty quickly.

In the end, the yeti cool brothers beat zoro with a blindside
In the end, Marco was cuffed by a high end vice admiral with a blindside
In the end, Vista put Akainu through some decent pain with a blindside

Regarding Sanji, it was a casual flick and he wasn't expecting much from Sanji, even we as fans who are able to see the series weren't expecting much. It was a super casual thing that he thought would be enough but sanji is a kenbunshoku specialist himself.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Feb 26, 2018)

If it was Katakuri, Marco, Benn, and ???? Maybe they could push the Admirals to a very difficult fight with 1 extra fighter.
This group, maybe pushes to high difficulty. I' being generous, probably. I don' think we got a clear picture of how strong Katakuri was in this fight. We saw how fights of this level are carried out in Dressrosa. It's across cities with large scale destruction and powerful blows that sends people crashing. Katakuri is able to injure G4 Luffy. So his offense isn't flashy but its still packing.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Feb 26, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> If it was Katakuri, Marco, Benn, and ???? Maybe they could push the Admirals to a very difficult fight with 1 extra fighter.
> This group, maybe pushes to high difficulty. I' being generous, probably. I don' think we got a clear picture of how strong Katakuri was in this fight. We saw how fights of this level are carried out in Dressrosa. It's across cities with large scale destruction and powerful blows that sends people crashing. Katakuri is able to injure G4 Luffy. So his offense isn' flashy bit it's not packing.


Honestly you're probably right, but not cuz no character there is a match against admirals.

The way I view it, big mom's crew consists of more top tiers, albeit those top tiers are overall weaker.

Meanwhile someone like Marco would run through any individual in big mom's crew pre timeskip (cuz he's going to be stronger post) outside of big mom herself with at best mid to high diff. 
Difficult fight though? No, they'd win 10 times out of 10 with 1 extra fighter, especially if we talk about post timeskip marco and whoever ends up being kaidou's first mate since he had only 3 calamities (plus drake)

Maybe pushes to high difficulty isn't generous when you're talking about 4 first mates of yonkou vs 3 admirals, they'd at worst require mid to high diff vs the admirals.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 3, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Shake lines: Around his hole body when the attack actually hits him, he's also pushed back a bit as evidenced by his lean.
> Gritting his teeth: In the top picture, he's grinding/gritting his teeth in pain.
> 
> He was admitting he wasn't having an easy time, he also groaned in fucking pain before saying it.
> ...



Where are these "shake lines" you are always talking about,they are not quite visible,can you show them?oda didnt show anything proving akainu was hurt. if vista and marco were on the same level than akainu, don t you think a surprise combined attack from these two would have caused a little more damages to akainu ?
marco and vista could not injure akainu,is because akainu's haki >>> marco's + vista's haki.
therefore akainu >>>>>>marco

aokiji froze jozu internally?I am pretty sure top dogs can walk around with thier organs burnt and missing,whitebeard kept on fight inspite of getting half his brain melted adn having lava poured into his chest,jozu must be having low durability for getting defeated so easily.

marco inspite of being a zoan cant do any  serious damage to the admirals,he sneak attacked aokiji and still could not damage him,jozu at least made him bleed a little.

Marco doesn't really go intangible. He just regenerates. He actually gets hurt from the lasers but his regeneration is part of his phoenix form.The reason Akainu and Kizaru didn't give visible damages to Marco is because MARCO CAN REGENERATE . It doesn't mean he wasn't damaged by them.

kizaru takes marco's kick and is few seconds later perfectly fine,he did no damage to him.

marco's regeneration reached his limit after only 2-3 hours,his durability is shit without his devil fruit.he was struggling to even walk properly after getting lasered only TWICE by kizaru,if it was not for plot,then kizaru would have lasered marco more the 10-20 times and would have killed him.

kizaru was going easy on marco and was literally playing around with him,he was casually trolling marco while marco was in agony.

akainu post timeskip is yonko level and has moved the headquarters to the new world to destroy the yonkos and is arguably the strongest marine right now,while marco is hiding somewhere like a coward after getting stomped by blackbeard who ran away from akainu.

the commanders are trash compared to admirals,luffy has already defeated katakuri,while admirals like fujitora were playing around with post timeskip luffy even though they have not gone all out.

what are perospero katakuri cracker etc going to do to akainu?
akainu would burn all the buscuits of cracker and would obliterate perospero's candy.


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 3, 2018)

Admirals are so lucky that they don't have to fight with the MC in a win or die situation. They can face with Luffy in a short battles and they can be separated with each other and never fight again like it happened with Fujitora. Meanwhile poor Yonko FM needs to fight with the MC in a die or win situation, and that would just make them look weak. But the truth is Admirals would also lose to Luffy if the plot demands (like it happened with former Admiral Zephyr)

Anyway, Luffy probably will become a PK without even defeating a single Admiral, so I will never buy that.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 3


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 3, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Where are these "shake lines" you are always talking about,they are not quite visible,can you show them?oda didnt show anything proving akainu was hurt. if vista and marco were on the same level than akainu, don t you think a surprise combined attack from these two would have caused a little more damages to akainu ?
> marco and vista could not injure akainu,is because akainu's haki >>> marco's + vista's haki.
> therefore akainu >>>>>>marco
> 
> ...


This is just shit posting you are doing now.

Look at the pic where akainu is being attacked by marco and vista, the one where you can see the slash effects of their attacks, Akainu is physically shaking and his teeth is gritted. He then went on to groan in pain and complain about them being haki users, this is undeniable, Akainu was hurt. He wasn't outright maimed but he was in substantial pain.

Haki doesn't fucking stack the more people you put together, both marco and vista were able to hurt akainu, at the biggest lowball you can maybe argue that vista didn't but marco did. The simple fact is this: Their haki was no beat, he was fucking hurt, they were just fucking unnamed cuts.



No amount of strength or willpower will matter if your muscles are frozen, if your muscles are frozen you are physically unable to move a single inch of the frozen muscle. Also don't argue that his muscles weren't frozen, he lifted a piece of ice the size of marineford, overall jozu's physical strength couldn't help him, nor his tankiness, that being said, aokiji would be unable to pull off said technique under normal circumstances, it's no different than zoro passing out from the gas of the yeti cool brothers, you can't just go "oh he can fight through it if he wasn't shit", he was knocked out by hax, jozu was hit by hax. Aokiji wouldn't have been able to get close cuz jozu had the advantage in cqc to be able to touch jozu to use it outside of a blindside, jozu also would have buso (which is clearly is specialty) and diamond to resist it normally, however he couldn't. It's no different than when doflamingo was hit with gamma knife, doflamingo couldn't move because his internal organs were ripped apart so he functionally couldn't move till he internally stitched them back together. Also it's different than when Aokiji froze Doflamingo because Doflamingo wasn't physically touched, honestly it was much more of a fuck off thing than with jozu which was "I want to finish you off with my hax", in the end doflamingo could break out and jozu could have broken out of that, but neither could break out of the ice no matter how much damage and pain they can fight through.

You're shit posting, Marco kicked Aokiji's fucking sword and then sent Aokiji flying, it was a fucking kick, you're trying to compare hax to fucking base attacks, it's like saying luffy couldn't beat doflamingo because base luffy's punches and kicks didn't blow doflamingo to blood and guts, it's a fucking stupid thing to say and doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny.

Marco DOES goes intangible. When he was charging in to Kizaru, Kizaru shot him many times with lasers (or at him) and they uselessly went through him and didn't displace him physically one bit, he was objectively intangible (when he is consciously doing it). When he was blindsided however he wasn't intangible and we see a clear difference between him regenerating from damage and his intangibility. I like how you're trying to say stuff in caps like you're trying to explain something simple to someone but you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about.

Kizaru didn't take shit from Marco, Marco threw a kick, Kizaru blocked it, then Marco threw his weight to send Kizaru flying and he turned to light to avoid crash damage. The very most that could have happened from that attack is maybe Kizaru got a small bruise on his arm, Marco didn't make contact with anything but Kizaru's arm.

Marco was pierced with blindsides by multiple lasers from free hits that normally would have never landed cuz of outside situations (distractions and kizaru fucking getting help), Marco was equally casual as Kizaru up until those things started happening, it's stupid to say otherwise, Marco and Kizaru are literally share the same personality and were saying the fucking same things to each other back and forth. Also lol at "if plot", Marco was fine after the lasers after he regenerated and kizaru even got fucking seastone on marco thanks to another character putting it on him, I don't know how you think that's impressive for Kizaru to do some damage to Marco when he had everything in the world going for him including marco being fucking put in fucking seastone. You act like Kizaru in seastone could get anything but bum rushed by marco.  Kizaru wasn't going easy on Marco.

Oh okay, Akainu post timeskip is yonkou leveled even though we've never seen him fight? Why? Because you say so? Oh okay, I like your evidence, good job.

You're a shit poster, your entire post is fan fiction.

Akainu would be a bad matchup for Perospero so that's kind of a moot point but you act like it didn't take a fucking kong gun to destroy even a biscuit shield, akainu isn't just going to whip his dick out and one hit them all, akainu is essentially fight cracker and an army of g3 leveled characters.

Also I'm fairly certain g3 luffy was bruising Ishoo so lol. And that was a vastly weaker Luffy than the one who fought Cracker, who is weaker the the Luffy who fought Katakuri.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> This is just shit posting you are doing now.
> 
> Look at the pic where akainu is being attacked by marco and vista, the one where you can see the slash effects of their attacks, Akainu is physically shaking and his teeth is gritted. He then went on to groan in pain and complain about them being haki users, this is undeniable, Akainu was hurt. He wasn't outright maimed but he was in substantial pain.
> 
> ...



Akainu would obliterate both perospero and cracker at the same time.

Perospero's candy and cracker's biscuits are very weak.

A red hawk was able to destroy perospero's candy.if a red hawk destroyed perosperos candy,then akainu's magma would obliterate it instantly.perospero lost his arm to Pedro because of some fodder dynamites lol,akainu would melt perospero.

Akainu took whitebeard's island splitting quake like it was nothing and did not even lose his arm or leg while perospero lost his arm to fodder dynamites lol.

A kong gun could destroy cracker's biscuit soldiers.while akainu's magma was equal in strength to whitebeard's quake.

Whitebeard's quakes >>>>>Kong gun

Akainu would obliterate cracker as well.

Marco is very weak,he go beaten by a spider lol.

Even jozu is weak,he could not even break out of parasite.doflamingo was literally playing with him.

Akainu is yonko level

Let's look at akainu's feats:
1)tanking an island splitter and a quake to head

2)tanking Marco's and vista haki imbued attacks combined without a scratch and thier attacks only annoyed akainu.

3) stopped a bisento from TWO HANDED whitebeard with ONE LEG

4)fought crocodile ivankov jimbei inazuma + 14 commanders of yonko AFTER being hit by an island splitter and quake to head.

5)killed whitebeard by melting half his head and pouring lava into his chest.

6)fought aokiji for the position of fleet admiral for 10 days and defeated him inspite of being so much injured by whitebeard's attacks

7)oda himself stated that akainu's is so strong that he can find one piece within a year.

Akainu is easily yonko level.

Commanders are WEAK.even Luffy and urouge managed to take them down.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 5, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Akainu would obliterate both perospero and cracker at the same time.
> 
> Perospero's candy and cracker's biscuits are very weak.
> 
> ...


Biscuit soldiers are g3 leveled leveled individually.

Perospero's candy has only fallen to heat ever only, akainu would only get through it cuz of his lava heat.

A Red Hawk is heat based.

"fodder dynamites", you mean a giant fucking explosion that killed pedro?

"like it was nothing", akainu was dropped after 2 hits.

A kong gun destroyed a shield or a biscuit soldier with a successful hit, biscuit soldiers are easily replaced, and there are a lot of them, alongside the real cracker. 

100 g3 luffy leveled sword thrusts/cuts >>>>>>>>>>>>> Quake
Then there is the real cracker who has high levels of buso.

Marco didn't lose to onigumo, not even close. You're a shit poster.
Shisui died before the series even started because of an old man.

Jozu was literally blindsided by parasite and was only in it for like 10 seconds tops.
Doflamingo blindsided him.

Akainu isn't yonkou leveled, that's fucking retarded to say, especially pre skip.

1) Getting 2 hit by whitebeard isn't called tanking

2) He groaned in pain, physically shook, was knocked back, and complained, also saying haki is pointless since the attacks wouldn't have done anything without haki, they were unnamed cutting attacks only even.

3) And daz bones blocked Mihawk, NEXT

4) He beat the bobbins of the crew, Marco held him off, the others lined up as a symbolic gesture that was more plot related about them putting their trust in luffy's future, then sengoku in the literal next page called the marines to back akainu up, you have a very casual relationship with canon and reality.

5) He hit whitebeard with the lava chest attack when he was mid heart attack and couldn't defend himself or move, he hit a whitebeard who was heavily nerfed in the head, and he still lost, nor did any of those 2 attacks kill whitebeard.

6) Akainu vs Aokiji was literally like a year and a half after marineford, nor is Aokiji all that strong

7) He can find one piece since he doesn't have to train, Luffy will find one piece even though he started super weak in the blues in like 5 years.

Akainu is Marco leveled or weaker.

"even Luffy" you say about a Luffy who could probably beat an admiral now and only defeated weak commanders.
Also you act like Urouge is weak, he was able to defeat a pacifista pre timeskip alone and he defeated only snack, the lowest top commander in the crew with the weakest top commanders.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Biscuit soldiers are g3 leveled leveled individually.
> 
> Perospero's candy has only fallen to heat ever only, akainu would only get through it cuz of his lava heat.
> 
> ...



Perospero lost his arm to some fodder dynamites,what are fodder dynamites compared island splitting quakes??cracker can't even take a scratch,how is going to fight against admirals??he has nothing over the admirals

1)akainu tanked whitebeard's quakes and was perfectly fine,even after taking whitebeard's Strongest attacks from point blank range,akainu did not suffer any permanent scar or injury like he suffered in his fight against aokiji

2) akainu's attacks were what killed whitebeard,gunshots sword cuts cannon balls just made it faster, whitebeard was going to die eventually because of akainu's attacks only.nobody can stay alive after getting thier insides roasted and after getting half thier head melted.until a sneak attack, whitebeard could not lay a finger on any admiral.whitebeard died after a few hours of fighting against fodders,while akainu fought an equally powerful marine for 10 days without any break and won.

3)it is laughable that even after sneak attacking akainu, whitebeard still  ended up losing half his head.

Akainu is Marco leveled?

Marco is overreliant on his regeneration and without his devil fruit powers ,he is nothing.his durability is a joke,and has been a loser,he is also hiding like a coward after being defeated by blackbeard,meanwhile akainu is the fleet admiral and leading an army of marines Stronger than ever

Luffy will beat an admiral?
He will need two more years of training.
Fujitora was literally playing around with  Luffy and was spending most of his time fooling around.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 6, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Perospero lost his arm to some fodder dynamites,what are fodder dynamites compared island splitting quakes??cracker can't even take a scratch,how is going to fight against admirals??he has nothing over the admirals
> 
> 1)akainu tanked whitebeard's quakes and was perfectly fine,even after taking whitebeard's Strongest attacks from point blank range,akainu did not suffer any permanent scar or injury like he suffered in his fight against aokiji
> 
> ...


Cracker says he hates pain, he never said he couldn't take a scratch, so that argument is shit, nor does that matter, Cracker avoids damage and overwhelms with sure quantity of quality. (army of biscuit soldiers)
How is an admiral going to handle getting impaled by an army of biscuit soldiers and cracker slicing them to pieces when he sees an opening? Maybe hits him with a surprise attack when they act vulnerable? That's about it. Don't say something stupid like "oh he'd just use a giant aoe attack to destroy all the biscuit soldiers and cracker", 2 biscuit soldiers together could probably stop an attack like that lol. They stopped kong gun spam.

1) "whitebeard's strongest attacks", fan fiction, the strength relative to his overall power was never specified. Whitebeard hit Akainu twice, Aokiji and Akainu fought for 10 days.

2) Fan fiction, pure fan fiction. Akainu's attacks are objectively weaker than 100's of sword wounds, 100's of bullets, and 100's of cannonballs, no matter how you look at it. 
"no one can survive"
This is fucking anime, not the real world, Whitebeard would have went braindead or died instantly if this was the real world but this is fucking one piece, he survived it and he'd have kept surviving it. Whitebeard stayed alive, therefore you're wrong. Whitebeard was killed by blackbeard and his crew after a whole battle of getting hit by everyone, it was a group effort for weakening him but blackbeard's crew or blackbeard (if he was alive till the black orb thing) were the one who killed him, this is fact.

Until Whitebeard: Came into marineford super old and with life threatening health issues that weakened him, was backstabbed by squard, had a heart attack, akainu getting a free hit to pump lava into whitebeard's chest near his heart or into his heart, a group of like 9 vice admirals teaming up to gank/shoot him, and whatever else happened off panel, akainu was unable to hit whitebeard up front. Even post heart attack and lava pumping, akainu still was unable to hit whitebeard. Akainu vs Whitebeard was pretty much Luffy vs Chinjao, congrats Luffy, you beat someone who was disgustingly nerfed of his real power. (and whitebeard still beat akainu lol)
The whitebeard who beat akainu was arguably weaker or as strong as marco, any yonkou could have droppped him easily at that point in time.

Thanks for calling Akainu and Kizaru fodder. Whitebeard was backstabbed, had a heart attack, akainu got free shot to pump lava into his heart, was hit by 100's of cannonballs, 100's of bullets, and 100's of bullets by vice admirals and other like them, took the full blunt of a giant vice admiral slamming down on him, akainu removing half of his face, kizaru shooting lasers through him when a weakened whitebeard left himself open to stop kizaru from killing luffy, blackbeard pirates as a whole shot him up (and stabbed since shiryuu was there), and you are trying to act like whitebeard was easily put down. OKAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


3) It's laughable that Akainu lost against a Whitebeard who was hit countless times by other characters, had a heart attack, had lava pumped into his chest, and had only half a face.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Marco is over reliant on his regeneration? He only uses his regeneration at 3 moments of marineford:
1) When garp blindsided him
2) When Kizaru blindsided him
3) When Kizaru shot him while he was in seastone (after he got out)

Marco was able to handle Kizaru without regeneration, also "without his devil fruit he is nothing" is pretty stupid, Marco has his devil fruit and so it's his power, nor would many top tiers be as powerful wtihout their devil fruit. Akainu is weaker without his devil fruit, Luffy would not have gears or stretching without his devil fruit, Brook would be dead without his devil fruit, Kizaru wouldn't be as strong without his devil fruit, etc.

Marco was physically stronger than Kizaru.
Marco had intangibility of non haki attacks he's aware of (though his intangibility doesn't have form so he can't hit someone while intangible)
Marco has flight 
Marco has top tier stats
Marco is probably a haki master

You keep saying his durability is a joke but he only was hit by blindsides and he was pretty fine by the end of marineford. 

"has been a loser"
Against who? The only person who can say they beat Marco is Blackbeard and he was only hit by Kizaru because of outside circumstances. (distractions and a guy sneaking seastone onto him) You act like kizaru would fair any better if someone like blamenco slipped seastone onto him with marco on his ass.


Wait you're trying to pretend like the world government giving the marines more power than they've ever had is a combat feat for Akainu? That's retarded. Akainu has 3 admirals, 100's of vice admirals at least, and countless soldiers under that, along with support from cp0 when the need arises and tons of others (including likely new model and old model pacifista and near endless military budget), yet you're trying to pretend akainu having that makes him stronger in a fight than marco? Akainu hasn't fought anyone on yonkou level, whitebeard wasn't. Akainu's forces are vastly stronger than marco's forces which would have involved 1 armed jozu, vista, and squard, then some people on tamago and oven level like blamenco.

Give Marco the entire marine force and give Akainu 1 armed Jozu, Vista, and the rest of marco's forces and Marco would bum rush the ever loving shit out of akainu and his crew. Not that it matters, marco has been fighting and contesting a yonkou for a good year while akainu hasn't attacked a single yonkou outright.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 8, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Cracker says he hates pain, he never said he couldn't take a scratch, so that argument is shit, nor does that matter, Cracker avoids damage and overwhelms with sure quantity of quality. (army of biscuit soldiers)
> How is an admiral going to handle getting impaled by an army of biscuit soldiers and cracker slicing them to pieces when he sees an opening? Maybe hits him with a surprise attack when they act vulnerable? That's about it. Don't say something stupid like "oh he'd just use a giant aoe attack to destroy all the biscuit soldiers and cracker", 2 biscuit soldiers together could probably stop an attack like that lol. They stopped kong gun spam.
> 
> 1) "whitebeard's strongest attacks", fan fiction, the strength relative to his overall power was never specified. Whitebeard hit Akainu twice, Aokiji and Akainu fought for 10 days.
> ...




*Akainu's attacks are objectively weaker than 100's of sword wounds, 100's of bullets, and 100's of cannonballs, no matter how you look at it.*

gunshots swords cannon balls are mosquito bites,they dont do much damage,akainu roasted whitebeard's organs and melted half his head,that does more damage than some tiny sowrds cannon balls and gunshots

The reason for whitebeard's death was akainu.
 80% of the damage was done by akainu

20% of the damage was done by gunshots cannnon balls sword cuts

*akainu was unable to hit whitebeard up front.
*
it is eaxctly the oppsoite,whitebeard struggled to even land a hit on any of the admirals,it was finally when he sneak attacked akainu that he finally managed to hit the admirals and he yet ended up losing half his head.

*"The whitebeard who beat akainu was arguably weaker or as strong as marco, any yonkou could have droppped him easily at that point in time."
*
whitebeard was leagues above Marco,and Akainu still dealt him the most damage during the war.Akainu was not,and I repeat,was NOT defeated.He got up after 2 island-chrashing hits without much damage.His logia mastery is insane,his strenght,stamina and durability are beastly and his haki is on a whole other level.
the reason why gunshots bazookas rocket cannon balls didnt damage akainu was because his haki is stronger,the reason why marco and vista could not damage akainu was because his haki is stronger.

*You keep saying his durability is a joke but he only was hit by blindsides and he was pretty fine by the end of marineford.*

he was struggling to walk after getting hit by just 2 lasers,plot armour prevented kizaru from shooting more laser at marco to kill him.lol what?by the end of the war marco was literally covered in bandages ,this indicates that his regeneration had already reached it's limit.


*The whitebeard who beat akainu was arguably weaker or as strong as marco, any yonkou could have droppped him easily at that point in time.*

WB that "defeated" Akainu (not really),was full of adrenaline and rage,which is know to make an average person lift a car if situation calls for it.WB that did that was the strongest we have seen from WB,not the weakest. Remember,Akainu and WB clashed before his mini-heart attack,and Akainu was blocking his bisento with one leg and made a magma fist that was equal in power to his earthquake hit.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 8, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Akainu's attacks are objectively weaker than 100's of sword wounds, 100's of bullets, and 100's of cannonballs, no matter how you look at it.*
> 
> gunshots swords cannon balls are mosquito bites,they dont do much damage,akainu roasted whitebeard's organs and melted half his head,that does more damage than some tiny sowrds cannon balls and gunshots
> 
> ...


No they aren't mosquito bites, while akainu could destroy those attacks with an attack of his own or someone can defend against them with a successful buso strike, sorry but no. If LUffy is sliced with a sword right now, he's going to be hurt (and he did by cracker), it's just that those sort of attacks can usually be avoided versus weaker people.
I get it, you love Akainu, but you're not listening to reason:


The reason for Whitebeard's death wasn't Akainu, objectively, he hit him twice with two basic lava fists. Just that barrage of attacks from the vice admirals there is more than what akainu did.

This is what was happening even post lava fisting, vice admiral gank, heart attack, and squard stab among other things:


Sorry but Akainu was inferior to a disgustingly nerfed whitebeard even though akainu even had the drop on him there, and Akainu objectively wasn't the one who killed whitebeard, his damage was at best 2-5% of the total damage that killed whitebeard.

Whitebeard > marco = or > Heavily nerfed Whitebeard > or = Akainu
Whitebeard was so nerfed at marineford that he would have gotten mid diff'd by any of the yonkou at the most, if not low diff'd. Big Mom, Kaidou, and Shanks would have had no trouble with him.

"without much damage", Akainu was literally face first in the ground and out of the fight for a good few minutes, Whitebeard beat Akainu with 2 hits, and neither of those attacks were island busting attacks, all quakes aren't equal, nor is whitebeard an island buster. Island busting = destroying the entire island, what whitebeard did is create cracks on a marineford sized scale, not busting, and that attack was vastly higher scale then the attacks he used on akainu.

His strength was equalized by Akainu.
His stamina and durability were more because of willpower than just having that impressive for a top tier amounts of it, he took marineford more seriously than anyone outside of heavily nerfed whitebeard and luffy. Whitebeard when he wasn't as nerfed was casulaly calling akainu a candle fire.
Akainu has no impressive haki feats

Vista and Marco hurt Akainu, objectively, it's not even up to debate, they hurt him. He groaned in pain, got displaced back from their hits, gritted his teeth together, then complained about them being haki users, they hurt him, a decent amount too, just not to maiming or defeating levels. Then he reformed cuz he's a logia. The damage was still there but he didn't have gaping slashes in his body, and those attacks were unnamed lol.

If akainu was hit blindside by a haki infused bullet, it'd hurt him, there is nothing saying that seastone bullets and haki bullets didn't shoot through him at marineford, but regular bullets and swords don't effect him because he's a logia, whitebeard isn't.

Struggling to walk? Lol you're the biggest akainu dick rider and marco downplayer. He literally turend around and went "fine I'll focus on our fight" instantly after being BLINDSIDED. I imagine you don't hold it against zoro that he lost to people weaker than him instantly due to a blindside or doflamingo for being hit with gamma knife, you only don't listen to reason when it goes against your biases.

How you saw Marco after marineford:


How he actually was:


Also he had only one or two wrap arounds around his neck in the manga.

Marco only used regeneration when he was blindsided, he wasn't hit fairly by anyone at marineford.

Whitebeard was playing around before the heart attack and yes he defeated akainu, akainu being face first on the ground and slowly falling into a chasm as whitebeard stood over him able to kill him then and there then being out of commission for a few minutes is losing.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 9, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> No they aren't mosquito bites, while akainu could destroy those attacks with an attack of his own or someone can defend against them with a successful buso strike, sorry but no. If LUffy is sliced with a sword right now, he's going to be hurt (and he did by cracker), it's just that those sort of attacks can usually be avoided versus weaker people.
> I get it, you love Akainu, but you're not listening to reason:
> 
> 
> ...



*Whitebeard was so nerfed at marineford that he would have gotten mid diff'd by any of the yonkou at the most, if not low diff'd. Big Mom, Kaidou, and Shanks would have had no trouble with him.*

bullshit,whitebeard even when old and sick was considered by many to be the strongest pirate alive

buggy considers whitebeard to be the strongest


even garp considers whitebeard to be the ruler of the sea


sengoku as well considers whitebeard to be the strongest


big mom a yonko herself considers whitebeard to be an exception amongs the yonkos.





*Akainu was inferior to a disgustingly nerfed whitebeard*

yet again bullshit,the only injury whitebeard had was ONE STAB from squardo who is a fodder ,akainu also stopped a bisento from TWO HANDED whitebeard with ONE LEG
,and also matched his earthquake with his magma fist



whitebeard could not lay a single finger on any admiral until a cheap sneak attack this is a fact

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 9, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Whitebeard was so nerfed at marineford that he would have gotten mid diff'd by any of the yonkou at the most, if not low diff'd. Big Mom, Kaidou, and Shanks would have had no trouble with him.*
> 
> bullshit,whitebeard even when old and sick was considered by many to be the strongest pirate alive
> 
> ...


Whitebeard was considered to be the ruler by people who weren't aware of his health issues, let alone after he had a heart attack and so forth.
Not to mention that Kaidou isn't a man (which is a race)

Prime Whitebeard would swat aside the yonkou easily and even an old healthy whitebeard would at worse be equal with Kaidou who is the biggest dog now, however Big Mom and Kaidou would beat Whitebeard at the level he arrived at marineford with.

Are you fucking serious? Whitebeard is super casual and jokey there.

Also let's be fucking honest: It was specificlly mentioned that he was hit 100's of times by canonballs, bullets, and swords.
He had a fucking heart attack
Akainu got a free hit where he shoved his fist of lava into whitebeard's chest
Squad stabbed him yeah, Squard is Whitebeard's strongest ally, the farthest thing from fodder, he's top commander leveled more than likely.

Heck there was even a panel of 8 or 9 vice admirals ganking him before he swatted them all away.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 9, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> *Whitebeard was considered to be the ruler by people who weren't aware of his health issues*, let alone after he had a heart attack and so forth.
> Not to mention that Kaidou isn't a man (which is a race)
> 
> Prime Whitebeard would swat aside the yonkou easily and even an old healthy whitebeard would at worse be equal with Kaidou who is the biggest dog now, however Big Mom and Kaidou would beat Whitebeard at the level he arrived at marineford with.
> ...


Do those people include Oda?


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 9, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Do those people include Oda?


Oda never said that unhealthy old whitebeard, let alone post heart attack whitebeard is the strongest, it's his title in the verse, just like Mihawk being weaker than Shanks.

I'm oda's master though so you can trust me.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Whitebeard was considered to be the ruler by people who weren't aware of his health issues, let alone after he had a heart attack and so forth.
> Not to mention that Kaidou isn't a man (which is a race)
> 
> Prime Whitebeard would swat aside the yonkou easily and even an old healthy whitebeard would at worse be equal with Kaidou who is the biggest dog now, however Big Mom and Kaidou would beat Whitebeard at the level he arrived at marineford with.
> ...




*Squad stabbed him yeah, Squard is Whitebeard's strongest ally, the farthest thing from fodder, he's top commander leveled more than likely.*

Squardo,top commander level?.........What?Where did you get that idea from?and he didn't showcase anythinh impressive aside from sneak attacking WB.He is mid/high vice-admiral level at best.Any top commander of a yonko,and even some of the mid level commanders could easily destroy him.Marco,Vista,Jozu can one shot/low diff Squardo any day,all day.Even if Squardo was "leading" the attack,he isn't necesarilly stronger than other captains.Squardo is a an allied captain,and those guys are low/mid yonko commander and mid/high vice-admiral level at best.

*Also let's be fucking honest: It was specificlly mentioned that he was hit 100's of times by canonballs, bullets, and swords.
He had a fucking heart attack
Akainu got a free hit where he shoved his fist of lava into whitebeard's chest*
*
Heck there was even a panel of 8 or 9 vice admirals ganking him before he swatted them all away.

*
Moreover,it was like 4-5 vice-admirals,not 9,and honestly,what do you think will deal the most damage to WB,tiny sword wounds and gunshots or two giant burining holes in his chest(half of his face in the manga)?You can compare two lava hits from a person like Akainu to stabs from fodder swords and gunshots.Reasons for WB death were:75-80% Akainu,10-15% other marines,and 10% BB pirates.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 10, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Squad stabbed him yeah, Squard is Whitebeard's strongest ally, the farthest thing from fodder, he's top commander leveled more than likely.*
> 
> Squardo,top commander level?.........What?Where did you get that idea from?and he didn't showcase anythinh impressive aside from sneak attacking WB.He is mid/high vice-admiral level at best.Any top commander of a yonko,and even some of the mid level commanders could easily destroy him.Marco,Vista,Jozu can one shot/low diff Squardo any day,all day.Even if Squardo was "leading" the attack,he isn't necesarilly stronger than other captains.Squardo is a an allied captain,and those guys are low/mid yonko commander and mid/high vice-admiral level at best.
> 
> ...


1) He was leading the allies
2) The people who took over the allies after his betrayal were the Decalvan Brothers, who had a previous clash with a younger Ace and Thatch.

Anyway Marco made it very apparent that Whitebeard normally would have been able to repel an ally like him off but couldn't in that situation due to his health, meaning it's not something casual to happen. This was pre heart attack whitebeard. Someone like brook or even sanji would likely be completely unable to do it.

"Any top commander of a yonkou,and even some of the mid level commanders could easily destroy him."
Based on what? What evidence do you have that he's weak? I mean even the lower allied captains were still vice admiral leveled, which is pretty much mid yonkou commander level already. 


Those aren't irrelevant attacks from small swords. That hole is akainu's attacks, their combined effort is more than the one damage from that.

Let's be honest, squard's stab wound weakened whitebeard's body enough where he suffered a heart attack, at which point akainu got a free shot, then these guys and many others hit whitebeard throughout marineford, then kizaru got some lasers in there as well, and akainu got one more attack in.

Whitebeard was objectively a group effort, also his heart attack did more than anyone else did.

Also "small swords"


I'm not going to argue that if those attacks clashed with a serious akainu attack, that he'd power through them. (well not all 100's from vice admirals and stuff but individually), nor are bullets usually an issue (whitebeard would be able to easily avoid them and so forth), however if someone is hit by a bullet without defense, or a sword, the damage isn't minor. Doflamingo and Law even made it clear that internally no one is really superhuman. The blade, bullet, etc attacks despite being no match against say a quake against it, still did heavy damage.

When Luffy was cut on the arm, he screamed in pain and held it, while a normal sword would have bounced off his arm with no problem, especially since he was in g4, but an attack that could cut him would hurt him and did hurt him. 

Sorry but random marines and blackbeard pirates did more damage to whitebeard than akainu did, so did the heart attack. I'd actually also argue in favor that squard's stab wound did as much damage as the lava fist.

But you want to know something? Whitebeard only lost because of squard stabbing him, it was the thing that domino'd the rest of the damage. Squard's hit caused the heart attack that allowed akainu a free hit, the heart attack and free hit weakened akainu enough to be hit by vice admirals and so forth, that made him weaker so that he wasn't able to swat aside akainu (he still beat akainu with 2 hits for a duration and could have killed him during it with further hits when he was on the ground face first defenseless), and the akainu hits and hits of others weakened him enough where he lost to the blackbeard pirates. You can argue that Sengoku was the one who technically beat Whitebeard but Squard's damage is what snowballed the whole affair. 

So in conclusion:
You downplay Squard too much just because he hasn't had an on panel fight (we have to remember that a lot of characters weren't just twiddling their thumbs from the many vice admirals to the characters who weren't on panel when we saw it, etc)
Squard, like a lot of characters, falls prey to a simple thing: this is a manga, there are a lot of characters, you can only focus on certain ones.

It's like how the supernova crews outside of law and kid's didn't get introduced and everyone thought they all had fodder crews, then Capone shows up and has a pretty sick crew actually and ship. It's just priority, sabondy had pacifista, sentoumaru, kizaru, supernova, rayleigh, shakky, etc. Marineford had the division commanders, akainu, whitebeard, the plot of luffy and ace, tons of allies, tons of returning characters, etc, it just was too busy. When we see these characters post timeskip we'll see them in a different light.

Marco will get more feats so people can stop whining about how weak he is.
Jozu will prove his worth as well and strength (even if he only has one arm, marco might be able to heal him with awakening)
Vista will prove show how impressive he is.
Squard will probably return to be the 3rd top commander after Vista of Marco's crew
The allies will do stuff and show off devil fruits
Blamenco will probably be the Oven or so of the crew (he did the best out of the non top commander commanders) and probably atmos is pretty strong (doflamingo talked him up even if he fell to parasite)

We'll probably see a lot of new moves when akainu finally gets his fight versus luffy or sabo, along with a longer on panel fight.

Squard is more Snack than Katakuri for their crew, but he's still not some throwaway.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) He was leading the allies
> 2) The people who took over the allies after his betrayal were the Decalvan Brothers, who had a previous clash with a younger Ace and Thatch.
> 
> Anyway Marco made it very apparent that Whitebeard normally would have been able to repel an ally like him off but couldn't in that situation due to his health, meaning it's not something casual to happen. This was pre heart attack whitebeard. Someone like brook or even sanji would likely be completely unable to do it.
> ...



*Let's be honest, squard's stab wound weakened whitebeard's body enough where he suffered a heart attack*

lol what?whitebeard was hit by 267 sword wounds 562 bullets 46 cannon balls but somehow *one lousy stab* from squardo is going to weaken him enough to get a heart attack?

*Whitebeard only lost because of squard stabbing him, it was the thing that domino'd the rest of the damage. Squard's hit caused the heart attack that allowed akainu a free hit*

WB got heart attack because of the stress and excitement  of battling in war,Squardo´s stab didn´t play much roll into that,we would have got in at some point during the war anyway. WB was killed because of big fucking hole in his chest and half of his face being melted.Bullets and swords just made it faster.He would have died just based on Akainu´s injuries alone.If Squardo stabbing WB caused a heart attack,it would happen sooner,not while fighting Akainu. Too much ifs in your argument.WB was fighting in a huge war,with a lot of stress and hard work his body had to endure,he was destined to get a heart attack.They mentioned it multiple times,how he has heart problems,while no one mentioned Squardo´s stab after a little discussion they had after it happened. I don´t mean that they actually said it in that manner,but it is logical to think that they would think in that fassion after the things they´ve been through.Also,if you think one stab was cause of WB´s death,and not damage Akainu caused,then you don´t deal with facts,my friend.

*I'd actually also argue in favor that squard's stab wound did as much damage as the lava fist.
*
lol,you actually think *one lousy stab *from a fodder like squardo is going to do equal amount of damage as two lava attacks which roast organs?wtf?squardo's stab does same damage as akainu's magma?Are you fuckin' serious dude? out of 267 sword stabs *one lousy stab* from squardo is going to severely weaken him?please stop using this shitty logic
akainu's magma punch >>>>>>> one stab from squardo

Moreover,if WB won and escaped Marineford,he could heal those sword and gun wounds,just because how tiny those things are compared to him.On the other hand,Akainu's magma delt the damage that was unhealable.


*Jozu will prove his worth as well and strength (even if he only has one arm, marco might be able to heal him with awakening)*

So,you are talking about me using fanfiction,but you are talking about Marco healing Jozu?Sure,why not?And maybe Sabo could have shown up and save Ace?And maybe Shanks is marrying Makino at this moment?Maybe Vergo and Monet are still alive and are chilling at Punk Hazard?Seriously,wtf?We don´t know if Marco can use his power on others,even with an Awakening.We even don´t know if he has it.Even Oda said that Marco´s ability has a limit,not being able to heal him from Garp´s haki punch.I´m pretty sure WB´s damage is beyond that limit.You don´t know what Marco´s Awakening is and neither do I,so stop your talk about him healing others with his flames for now.Even if he can´t easily heal others,you would think he would do it to his "father",especially when he knows they need his full strenght at this war.

*


*


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 10, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Let's be honest, squard's stab wound weakened whitebeard's body enough where he suffered a heart attack*
> 
> lol what?whitebeard was hit by 267 sword wounds 562 bullets 46 cannon balls but somehow *one lousy stab* from squardo is going to weaken him enough to get a heart attack?



Why did he spit blood and fall on his knees if you think that stab wasn't important? And why do you think elite fighters like Marco, Jozu, Vista were in shock and worried for Whitebeard if that attack wasn't important?

Whitebeard taking other wounds and bullets are just for delaying inevitable, the moment Squardo impaled him, it was all over. He was only delaying it for a while.

And it wasn't anywhere near ''lousy'' LOL. It was an extra large sword and it pierced through all over his body. If Akainu was the one took that stab, he couldn't even continue to fight with Whitebeard.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Oda never said that unhealthy old whitebeard, let alone post heart attack whitebeard is the strongest, it's his title in the verse, just like Mihawk being weaker than Shanks.
> 
> I'm oda's master though so you can trust me.


Oda said: "Whitebeard, the world's strongest man".

He didn't say "Whitebeard, the man know as the world's strongest man" or "The man with the title of world's strongest man".

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 10, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Oda said: "Whitebeard, the world's strongest man".
> 
> He didn't say "Whitebeard, the man know as the world's strongest man" or "The man with the title of world's strongest man".


He had his title up, that's his in verse title.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 10, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Let's be honest, squard's stab wound weakened whitebeard's body enough where he suffered a heart attack*
> 
> lol what?whitebeard was hit by 267 sword wounds 562 bullets 46 cannon balls but somehow *one lousy stab* from squardo is going to weaken him enough to get a heart attack?
> 
> ...


You don't understand how bodies work, if you are stabbed, your body weakens and this leaves you vulnerable. I mean squard's stab wound didn't just give him cancer or anything, but the sword wound weakened him where his already serious health issues that required he be on medical machines 24/7 and he was only off to not get pity and for people to not look down on him gave him a heart attack due to the weakened state his body was in. Lousy? Lol that sword is huge and it literally went all the way through his chest, that's somewhat equivalent to akainu's mid heart attack lava fist.

Omg, you're a fucking moron, the excitement of battle gave Whitebeard's a heart attack? LOL WHAT
Anyway go look at squard's stab, I posted it to show how big the sword is but it was a broken link or something, whitebeard was objectively fucked up by the sword stab even though he fought on, he was sweating and his eyes tensed up and he was in clear pain.

You're a shit poster, you're literally making stuff up and stating it's fact like "oh that had nothing to do with it" and crap like that. No it did, squard's stab wound gave whitebeard's body the weakness it needed to be vulnerable to his health issues, sorry that this doesn't make akainu look super powerful because I know how much you like sucking on akainu's lava cock, but whitebeard had the heart attack because the wound weakened his body to be vulnerable to a heart attack.

"not while fighting akainu", he wasn't fighting akainu, he repeled a few admiral attacks then had the heart attack, then akainu came up and hit him mid heart attack, then they split up for a while and whitebeard was ganked by some vice admirals, then whitebeard and akainu had some more back and forths then whitebeard hit akainu from behind then akainu hit him back then whitebeard hit him again and akainu laid face first on the ground completely defenselessly. 

Akainu isn't yonkou level, sorry but that's fucking stupid.

The stab, heart attack, akainu's attacks, kizaru's attacks, and the countless vice admirals and so that hit him weren't enough to kill him, learn how to fucking read.

He came in with health issues.
Squard backstabbed him (in front through his body)
This was extremely damaging to Whitebeard
Whitebeard then was weakened where he eventually succumbed to a heart attack
Akainu got his free hit
Tons of other people hit whitebeard
Whitebeard and Akainu hit each other a few times (2 for whitebeard, 1 for akainu)
Akainu dropped out for a while
Other people hit whitebeard including kizaru
Then the blackbeard pirates ganked him as a team effort.

It wasn't until the blackbeard pirates did that that his death came. Squard didn't kill whitebeard but he was the initial hit that allowed everyone else a chance at him and that caused his health to deteriorate enough to give him a heart attack.

He'd have been fine after the heart attack if just squard and the heart attack things happened, but akainu and others wouldn't have been able to do the damage that they could if the heart attack didn't happen and the heart attack happened only because of the mix of health issues and squard's attack. Like I said, squard snowballed to whitebeard's death.

He could heal 100's of cannonballs, bullets, and sword wounds? Nope, not an harder than the akainu injuries. Akainu's chest pump would at best leave a scar and the face thing might not heal but he'd not die from it, though I imagine marco could use awakening or something to heal him.

Why is Squard fodder? Because you say so.
Squard's stab did break the camels back, if squard hadn't stabbed whitebeard then the whitebeard pirates would have freed Ace and left with only fodder dying on either side.
Without the squard stuff and heart attack marco wouldn't have been hit
Without marco being hit jozu wouldn't have been hit
They would have continued to stand still.
Luffy or whoever would have eventually freed Ace
Ace would have had more support including whitebeard himself who would be old and sick but wouldn't suffer damage or the heart attack
Ace wouldn't have been egged into turning around.

If squard hadn't hit whitebeard, the status quo would have stayed the same and blackbeard wouldn't have gotten the gura gura either since whitebeard would still be around.

Law literally destroyed all of doflamingo's internal organs and he only stitched them back together and yet he was taking g4 hits still afterwards.

Without squard's stab, the heart attack wouldn't have happened.
Without the heart attack the lava fist through the chest wouldn't have happened
Without the lava stab through the chest and other people being able to hit him because of the previous things, then akainu wouldn't have removed half whitebeard's face.
Without all the damage done previously, blackbeard and his crew wouldn't have damaged whitebeard and if they went after him they'd have died (and marco, jozu, ace, and vista would be around 100% to help things along till they leave)

Marco is a mystical zoans, he has the zoan and a special ability, his awakening would allow him to not only gain a power and tanking boost (along with speed and stuff probably too), he'd also have his healing awakened, ie he can manipulate the environment with his healing flames to heal others, if he already can't just drip blue flames onto someone to heal them. 

Vergo is still alive, Monet is probably dead though. Vergo was cut into pieces (non fatally) and a devil fruit just went into circulation nearby that literally allows someone to regenerate missing limbs and that sort of thing. Vergo might not play too big of a part going forward depending on what oda wants to do, however it's pretty obvious he was set up with the possibility of escaping and returning to normal and gaining a devil fruit that allows him to be a counter to law (the person who beat him)

If Marco can heal people, it'd be an after battle sort of deal, also it might not be instant, something akin to possibly dripping flames onto someone and they heal like the head attack of akainu's over a few days or something like that since they aren't marco, or something akin to that.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> He had his title up, that's his in verse title.


Except that's not what Oda said. He said that Whitebeard was the world's strongest man. He has said nothing about any title.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 10, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Except that's not what Oda said. He said that Whitebeard was the world's strongest man. He has said nothing about any title.


When did he say this? Panel or scan required.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> When did he say this? Panel or scan required.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 10, 2018)

Dunno said:


>


That's not oda saying it, that's a title.
Oda saying it would be him saying it in an interview.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> That's not oda saying it, that's a title.
> Oda saying it would be him saying it in an interview.


I will agree that it's not Oda literally saying it. It's Oda writing it. There's no indication that it would be a title though.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Oda said: "Whitebeard, the world's strongest man".
> 
> He didn't say "Whitebeard, the man know as the world's strongest man" or "The man with the title of world's strongest man".



No Oda didn't say anything. That's Whitebeard's title in the world Oda created. If there was an author note in that chapter stating "Guys. This is the strongest character I created in the series and he still is and will be even when he gets killed", then that would be the author stating something. Using titles to reach specific conclusions like this are fallacious. That's why arguments for Mihawk are so shitty. "Was he holding a sword then Mihawk>>>>>>>????". That's not how logic works. Because you don't know if Mihawk fought every single character that we saw use a sword. And it's not even always guaranteed that they are swordsman. It's like Whitebeard using a Bisento. It was just a tool to him. He was a devils fruit user. So those arguments for Mihawk are quite flawed. Same with WB in the war where he has an internal monologue saying "I can't be the strongest forever". Literally contradicting the title with actual on panel empirical evidence. So that title at that point in time became false.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 11, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> No Oda didn't say anything. That's Whitebeard's title in the world Oda created. If there was an author note in that chapter stating "Guys. This is the strongest character I created in the series and he still is and will be even when he gets killed", then that would be the author stating something. Using titles to reach specific conclusions like this are fallacious. That's why arguments for Mihawk are so shitty. "Was he holding a sword then Mihawk>>>>>>>????". That's not how logic works. Because you don't know if Mihawk fought every single character that we saw use a sword. And it's not even always guaranteed that they are swordsman. It's like Whitebeard using a Bisento. It was just a tool to him. He was a devils fruit user. So those arguments for Mihawk are quite flawed. Same with WB in the war where he has an internal monologue saying "I can't be the strongest forever". Literally contradicting the title with actual on panel empirical evidence. So that title at that point in time became false.


Oda: "Whitebeard, the strongest man in the world."
TheOnlyOne1: "Whitebeard wasn't the strongest man in the world."

Oda: "Mihawk, the strongest swordsman in the world."
TheOnlyOne1: "Mihawk isn't the strongest swordsman in the world."

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> I will agree that it's not Oda literally saying it. It's Oda writing it. There's no indication that it would be a title though.


Everything in one piece is his writing, it's kind of irrelevant, especially considering how unhealthy whitebeard was even coming into whitebeard, let alone how badly he was weakened by squard stabbing him which led to his heart attack. He also was ganked by a bunch of characters before akainu and whitebeard had their short 3 hit fight.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You don't understand how bodies work, if you are stabbed, your body weakens and this leaves you vulnerable. I mean squard's stab wound didn't just give him cancer or anything, but the sword wound weakened him where his already serious health issues that required he be on medical machines 24/7 and he was only off to not get pity and for people to not look down on him gave him a heart attack due to the weakened state his body was in. Lousy? Lol that sword is huge and it literally went all the way through his chest, that's somewhat equivalent to akainu's mid heart attack lava fist.
> 
> Omg, you're a fucking moron, the excitement of battle gave Whitebeard's a heart attack? LOL WHAT
> Anyway go look at squard's stab, I posted it to show how big the sword is but it was a broken link or something, whitebeard was objectively fucked up by the sword stab even though he fought on, he was sweating and his eyes tensed up and he was in clear pain.
> ...



i*f you are stabbed, your body weakens and this leaves you vulnerable. I mean squard's stab wound didn't just give him cancer or anything, but the sword wound weakened him Lousy? Lol that sword is huge and it literally went all the way through his chest, that's somewhat equivalent to akainu's mid heart attack lava fist.Squard backstabbed him (in front through his body)
This was extremely damaging to Whitebeard.Like I said, squard snowballed to whitebeard's death.
Without the squard stuff and heart attack marco wouldn't have been hit.Without squard's stab, the heart attack wouldn't have happened.*


whitebeard suffered 267 sword wounds,but somehow one stab from squardo does massive damage?please stop using this shitty logic .It was a heart attack Whitebeard had there. It had nothing to do with the stab. 200 stabs... *one* of them is massive damage to him? Stop using this shitty logic.

Akainu's damage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that stab.

Seriously, if you give that stab so much value, then Akainu's attacks should have killed Whitebeard several times at once.It barely weakened him. The main purpose of that stab was to lower the moral of the WB pirates and it didn't work. The stab didn't do shit.
and lol squardo's fodder stab is equivalent to akainu's lava fist? That stab was nothing compared to what Akainu's damage was. Use your common sense.

If Squardo stabbing WB caused a heart attack,it would happen sooner,not while fighting Akainu.Too much ifs in your argument.WB was fighting in a huge war,with a lot of stress and hard work his body had to endure,he was destined to get a heart attack.They mentioned it multiple times,how he has heart problems,while no one mentioned Squardo´s stab after a little discussion they had after it happened.Also,if you think one stab was cause of WB´s death,and not damage Akainu caused,then you don´t deal with facts

*Lousy? Lol that sword is huge and it literally went all the way through his chest, that's somewhat equivalent to akainu's mid heart attack lava fist.*


there are swords which went all the way through his chest,but they dont do as much damage as akainu's lava fist do,akainu's lava fist fucking melt and roast organs,that would obviously do more damage than some gunshots or cannon balls or cannon balls


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> It's waht happened in the manga, also there is nothing suggesting he left him sitting around. Sorry but Kizaru couldn't defeat marco in seastone handcuffs.
> 
> Sengoku didn't call in random mooks, whitebeard was ganked by 1000's of people during marineford and he was without a doubt superior to akainu.
> 
> ...



*Sorry but Kizaru couldn't defeat marco in seastone handcuffs.*



So, this is > Admirals even with cuffs on? Wow, Marco must be PK or Zunisha tier then tbh.
he is weak as hell,got his ass handed to him by a goddamn spider lol.his observation haki was not good enough to predict that a fodder spider was behind him and slipped handcuffs on onto him

*Sengoku didn't call in random mooks, whitebeard was ganked by 1000's of people during marineford and he was without a doubt superior to akainu.*

this proves whitebard has plot armour,he had a bigger plot armour than luffy himself.

sengoku called in fodder marines to attack whitebeard,while he could have ordered 3 admirals to team together adn murder whitebaerd but he didnt,the reason is plot armour

when whitebeard was having heart attack,akainu could have melted his entire skull but instead hit him on the chest,the reason is plot armour.



whitebeard struggled to hit even kizaru,adn got trolled by kizaru,and kizaru could have finished whitebeard as well,if he wanted to,but he didnt,the reason is plot armour



the objective fact is that in the entire war whitebeard struggled to even hit the admrials and it was finally until  a  cheap sneak attack ,he finally managed to hit the admirals and he yet lost half his skull,(akainu was fighting marco in the previous page)


akainu took 2 island splitting quakes(which does more damage than some gunshots cannon balls sword cuts etc),and he was stilll perfectly fine and chasing after luffy,fodderising jimbei ivankov inazuma and is facing whitebeard commanders by himself


the objective fact is that marines won the war without even going all out,some of the shichibukais(like hancock,jimbei etc) betrayed the marines and whitebeard pirates still lost the war miserably.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Everything in one piece is his writing, it's kind of irrelevant, especially considering how unhealthy whitebeard was even coming into whitebeard, let alone how badly he was weakened by squard stabbing him which led to his heart attack. He also was ganked by a bunch of characters before akainu and whitebeard had their short 3 hit fight.


Everything is either writing or drawing, that's true. What is considered to be canonically true are the events that happen on panel and that things that are written by the narrator. What is not considered to be canon are the statements made by the characters in the manga though, since they might very well be wrong. I agree that after he got a lot of injuries, he might not have been able to beat anyone on the planet though, but this doesn't mean that he no longer was the WSM, only that he was severely injured. It's just like how, if Mihawk and Shanks were to fight, and then Coby came and finished whomever was left standing of, it wouldn't mean that Coby was at that point stronger than him.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> How is he going to last 10 days against an admiral? Well if you take out Garp and Kizaru blindsiding Marco or hitting him when he had seastone on, he wasn't hit a single time in marineford, being a zoan top tier, he should be able to fight for 10 days even without using his regeneration. How will they last 10 days against him though? His zoan boost allows him to match up against big fist akainu attacks and overpower kizaru, this means he has the cqc advantage against kizaru and aokiji, he when not blindsided has the ability to turn intangible, this means that ranged aokiji, akainu, and kizaru attacks aren't going to do anything to him. What does that leave? The admirals would have to cqc Marco where he has the advantage over 2 of them and Jinbei was able to fight for 5 days against Ace and Marco is lightyears above Ace when he was jinbei leveled (who was arguably weaker than he is now) while Ace was much stronger and was still quite weaker than marco.
> 
> This all includes Marco not using awakened zoan which we know he has, which would give him the advantage over akainu in cqc.
> 
> ...



*Anyway aokiji has the worst matchup and is the one who would lose more so than kizaru who could probably use his high speeds to edge out.*

How is aokiji the worst matchup for cracker?

Aokiji can literally freeze all those biscuit soldiers and has better speed and bwtter buso haki than cracker.

Aokiji would low difficulty.

Honestly,how the hell is cracker going to last against aokiji?

Aokiji was able to fight against akainu for 10 days against,but cracker is getting tired after 11 hours of fighting.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Oda: "Whitebeard, the strongest man in the world."
> TheOnlyOne1: "Whitebeard wasn't the strongest man in the world."
> 
> Oda: "Mihawk, the strongest swordsman in the world."
> TheOnlyOne1: "Mihawk isn't the strongest swordsman in the world."



Oda: Didn't say that.

That's a logical fallacy to use those titles like that. That's Whitebeards title within the One Piece universe. Not Oda's title for Whitebeard even if Oda wrote that manga.
Whitebeard contradicted that title in the war by stating he can't be the strongest forever. That's factual evidence. You can cry about a title all you want but that's not evidence. 

Oda: Didn't say that. That's Mihawk's title in the story. And again, you can't logically say Mihawk fought everyone that holds a sword or if everyone that holds a sword is a swordsman. You can't say Mihawk>Fujitora simply based on a title or just because Funjitora holds a fucking sword. That's fallacious reasoning. It's wrong. And it's not evidence.
I did not say that so that's another fallacy.

Address what others are saying and don't just make shit up. That's how arguments work in a back and forth.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 11, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> Oda: Didn't say that.
> 
> That's a logical fallacy to use those titles like that. That's Whitebeards title within the One Piece universe. Not Oda's title for Whitebeard even if Oda wrote that manga.
> Whitebeard contradicted that title in the war by stating he can't be the strongest forever. That's factual evidence. You can cry about a title all you want but that's not evidence.
> ...


Oda wrote (in Japanese): "Whitebeard, the world's strongest man." 
You are saying that Whitebeard isn't the world's strongest man. Can you not see how you directly contradict Oda? How can you say that this is a title when Oda clearly hasn't written that. 

If we put it like this: Would you say that any panel Oda drew was only hearsay as well? Would you for example say that we can't be sure that Luffy actually beat Crocodile, but that it's actually just the in-universe understanding of the event? That Luffy is actually only know as having beaten Crocodile? If you don't agree with the view I propose in this analogy, then do you have any reason to hold pictures in higher regard than words? 

No-one has ever, as far as I know, said that Mihawk has fought every living swordsman. Oda has written that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world though. He hasn't written anything about a title. Oda wrote (in Japanese): "Mihawk, the world's strongest swordsman". This literally literally means that Oda has written that Mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman. Whether any specific character is classified as a swordsman or not can be argued, but what matters is Oda's opinion and the fact that we know that anyone Oda considers to be a swordsman is canonically weaker than Mihawk.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 11, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Anyway aokiji has the worst matchup and is the one who would lose more so than kizaru who could probably use his high speeds to edge out.*
> 
> How is aokiji the worst matchup for cracker?
> 
> ...


Because Aokiji has shown to be the weakest in cqc, Cracker's biscuit soldiers are going to be ganking him and he'll be speed blitzing around and has strong enough buso to damage him.

Cracker was tired cuz he had to keep spawning biscuit soldiers cuz luffy was eating wet ones. Not that it'd matter, aokiji is going to have 20 swords in him at all times.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Everything is either writing or drawing, that's true. What is considered to be canonically true are the events that happen on panel and that things that are written by the narrator. What is not considered to be canon are the statements made by the characters in the manga though, since they might very well be wrong. I agree that after he got a lot of injuries, he might not have been able to beat anyone on the planet though, but this doesn't mean that he no longer was the WSM, only that he was severely injured. It's just like how, if Mihawk and Shanks were to fight, and then Coby came and finished whomever was left standing of, it wouldn't mean that Coby was at that point stronger than him.


It was made particularly clear that Whitebeard didn't want people to know about his health issues. 

Anyway Shanks would low or mid diff Mihawk, use another character please. =w=

But anyway, whitebeard was coming into marineford nerfed and the point is that the condition whitebeard was in when he faced akainu (and he won) is a whitebeard who would arguably lose against marco, let alone the other yonkou.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 11, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Sorry but Kizaru couldn't defeat marco in seastone handcuffs.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like how you're using a blindside attack as evidence that Marco is weak and Kizaru is stronger, that's directly manipulative of you, and is overall a bad argument if you have a basic concept of the actual battle instead of just looking at the picture.

Onigumo literally only placed seastone on him when he was facing Kizaru, haoshouku is only applicable when the person is actively using it. Sanji, Luffy, and Zoro get blindsided on a regular basis. We get it, you want to shit on Marco, but even katakuri for fucks sake has been taken off guard when he got emotional and he's been the most aware due to kenbunshoku.

Nah, whitebeard despite being heavily sick and having a heart attack and stuff was just an absolute tank even though he usually dodged stuff. Also did he struggle? Until whitebeard's heart attack, whitebeard was smiling and belittling them, I just don't think he cared much about them, probably only taking Garp seriously.

The fact is that no admiral could hit whitebeard till he had a heart attack and was ganked by a lot of people, and he still beat akainu even though akainu got a free hit into his chest.

They weren't island splitting quakes, he did one of those earlier in the battle but he used regular quake attacks on akainu. Also took? You mean was dropped by? Perfectly fine? He was out of the fight for multiple minutes and as face first in the ground, if whitebeard wanted he could have killed whitebeard with one more hit or 2 while he was 100% defenseless, talk about plot armor, everyone has it. 

Yes, ignore the fact that whitebeard only was hit cuz squard backstabbed him to lead into his health issues that gave him his heart attack.
Ignore the fact that without the heart attack marco wouldn't have been hit a single time outside of garp's blindside.
Ignore the fact that without marco being hit by kizaru, jozu wouldn't have been hit by aokiji
Ignore the fact that if that all didn't happen, ace wouldn't have been tempted to turn around in anger to face akainu

Ignore the fact that that would essentially mean that none of the whitebeard pirates would have been damaged and would have casually left with ace like nothing happened or kept fighting.

100% Whitebeard
100% Marco
100% Jozu
100% Vista
100% Ace

If squard hadn't done that, no one would have been hurt outside of some vice admirals, maybe a few pirate fodder, etc. Heck if it didn't happen they could have arguably defeated the marines, albeit I don't think whitebeard would want the marines to be destroyed out of the balance and stuff.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> It was made particularly clear that Whitebeard didn't want people to know about his health issues.
> 
> Anyway Shanks would low or mid diff Mihawk, use another character please. =w=
> 
> But anyway, whitebeard was coming into marineford nerfed and the point is that the condition whitebeard was in when he faced akainu (and he won) is a whitebeard who would arguably lose against marco, let alone the other yonkou.


Whether or not Whitebeard wanted people to know about his health issues is inconsequential. What matters is what actually happened in the manga. We know that Squardo stabbed Whitebeard, because we saw it drawn in the manga. Similarly, we know that Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world, because we saw it written in the manga. 

Oda wrote in the manga that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world, and he apparently wrote in one of the databooks that Shanks is a swordsman. It seems the author disagrees with you, although I'm honestly not sure if you actually care about that.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Oda wrote (in Japanese): "Whitebeard, the world's strongest man."
> You are saying that Whitebeard isn't the world's strongest man. Can you not see how you directly contradict Oda? How can you say that this is a title when Oda clearly hasn't written that.
> 
> If we put it like this: Would you say that any panel Oda drew was only hearsay as well? Would you for example say that we can't be sure that Luffy actually beat Crocodile, but that it's actually just the in-universe understanding of the event? That Luffy is actually only know as having beaten Crocodile? If you don't agree with the view I propose in this analogy, then do you have any reason to hold pictures in higher regard than words?
> ...



It seems like you lack a fundamental understanding of logic and evidence. Oda didn't say anything. Just like how dialogue within the universe isn't Oda saying something, just like that title boxes or what a character is perceived as in the universe isn't Oda saying something. That's simple hype. We need corroborative evidence for that or more reasons to claim it as factual.

What you are doing, as well as most people, are just saying stuff. You aren't defending your stance. In fact you are simply talking over the other person (me). I have repeatedly my self twice before. Whitebeard himself contradicted that title by stating "I can't be the strongest forever". In addition to Marco's reaction. Those are factual evidence used to make conclusion vs a title.

You can't make a comparison between a title vs an actual on panel fight. Do you not even understand how fallacious that is? How did you even think of comparing those two vastly different things? We have evidence for the fight because the manga shows us the fight. This is one of those moments where people facepalm and are exasperated at the fact that you even made this argument. A title is text and hype vs a fight that readers can view in the manga which is empirical evidence. It's factual. It happens in our front of our face. We can quantify it. We can measure it. We can analyze it. Etc.
Do you understand what "Show, don't tell" is in literary works? It's exposition vs action. An on panel fight is action and it's factually proven vs description or summary when it comes to a title. Think of it in those terms. They are vastly different.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I didn't claim anyone made that argument. That was my argument against yours. And dude, "Strongest Swordsman" is a fucking title. Dude, seriously................. "Pirate King" "Strongest man" "Strawhat" "Yonkou" "Admiral" "Strongest Swordsman", are all fucking titles of the characters and their positions in the One Piece world. If you don't even understand this simple fact, I'm not even sure why you are arguing.
And there is the fallacy. You are not addressing that. That's not how logic, evidence or arguments work. And again, Oda is not saying anything. That's not Oda specifically saying anything. Anytime something in the manga is said, it isn't Oda saying it. The manga and the author are two different fucking things. Worlds Strongest Swordsman is the title Mihawk holds in that universe. It's not Oda telling you "He beats anyone that we have ever seen hold a sword even if they are or not swordsmen". That's why it's a fallacy. And it's also something YOU are making up. That's not what Oda said. You are assuming it. It's YOUR assumption. It's not a factual thing.

I understand that this is just manga discussions but man that doesn't mean logic and evidence doesn't apply. And you guys have a very poor understanding of even the basics. I feel like I would just be repeating myself in a spectacular circular fashion with you and you will just brush over what I say without addressing it. So I will stop here. Even I'm not stubborn enough to smash my head against the wall repeatedly.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 11, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> It seems like you lack a fundamental understanding of logic and evidence. Oda didn't say anything. Just like how dialogue within the universe isn't Oda saying something, just like that title boxes or what a character is perceived as in the universe isn't Oda saying something. That's simple hype. We need corroborative evidence for that or more reasons to claim it as factual.
> 
> What you are doing, as well as most people, are just saying stuff. You aren't defending your stance. In fact you are simply talking over the other person (me). I have repeatedly my self twice before. Whitebeard himself contradicted that title by stating "I can't be the strongest forever". In addition to Marco's reaction. Those are factual evidence used to make conclusion vs a title.
> 
> ...




You are misunderstanding. A character saying something in the manga does not make it true. A fact being stated in the manga is true, in the same way that a fact being shown in a picture in the manga is true. In what way do you believe pictures to be more factual than text? If Oda shows us a picture on Luffy punching Lucci, or if Oda writes "Luffy punched Lucci", the result is the same. In both cases, we get information directly from the author. How can you honestly say that we have empirical evidence when it's shown by a picture and not when it's shown by text? 

If you were to read a book, would the book lack any kind of canonical truth, since it's all text and no pictures? 

Of course Whitebeard is the owner of the in-universe title of "World's Strongest Man", which is a title. That is entirely separate from my argument though, and I haven't talked about that title at all. What we need to understand is that Oda hasn't addressed that title directly at all. Oda wrote "Whitebeard, the world's strongest man", which literally means that Whitebeard is the strongest man in the world. 



TheOnlyOne1 said:


> Worlds Strongest Swordsman is the title Mihawk holds in that universe. It's not Oda telling you "He beats anyone that we have ever seen hold a sword even if they are or not swordsmen". That's why it's a fallacy. And it's also something YOU are making up. That's not what Oda said. You are assuming it. It's YOUR assumption. It's not a factual thing.



I suggest you read my post again. I did not say "He beats anyone that we have ever seen hold a sword even if they are or not swordsmen" or anything that could honestly be interpreted as such. I wrote that Oda has written that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world in the manga. This sentence literally means that out of all swordsmen, Mihawk is the strongest. The first part of the sentence that is open for interpretation is the word "strongest", which if used in a literal sense could refer to physical strength. The way it has been used in all other instances in the manga though is in reference to overall combat ability, so that would be the overwhelmingly most likely interpretation. The second part is swordsman, and that word is much harder to define, which is why it's hard to determine which people Mihawk is canonically stronger than. What isn't hard to determine though is that Mihawk is actually stronger than anyone who is a swordsman.


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> You are misunderstanding. A character saying something in the manga does not make it true. A fact being stated in the manga is true, in the same way that a fact being shown in a picture in the manga is true. In what way do you believe pictures to be more factual than text? If Oda shows us a picture on Luffy punching Lucci, or if Oda writes "Luffy punched Lucci", the result is the same. In both cases, we get information directly from the author. How can you honestly say that we have empirical evidence when it's shown by a picture and not when it's shown by text?
> 
> If you were to read a book, would the book lack any kind of canonical truth, since it's all text and no pictures?
> 
> ...



@Dunno 
The Problem with Argument is that You assume What ist Being refered to in The introduction Box is an author comment. You Cant sell that assumption as a fact without anything to Back It Up especially since it IS more than likely wrong given What The Manga has shown us Afterwards.


----------



## MO (Mar 11, 2018)

the cracker down play in this thread is ridiculous he  is not getting one shotted of the bat.


----------



## Canute87 (Mar 11, 2018)

MO said:


> the cracker down play in this thread is ridiculous he  is not getting one shotted of the bat.



Not really.  

He's  just a one trick pony.

If you can't nullify his army you're in for some serious problems. 

That's all there is to him.


----------



## MO (Mar 11, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> Not really.
> 
> He's  just a one trick pony.
> 
> ...


he still has his own speed and strenght. He survived 11 hour with luffy with his devil fruit being useless so he is not someone who is complety reliant on his devil fruit.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Whether or not Whitebeard wanted people to know about his health issues is inconsequential. What matters is what actually happened in the manga. We know that Squardo stabbed Whitebeard, because we saw it drawn in the manga. Similarly, we know that Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world, because we saw it written in the manga.
> 
> Oda wrote in the manga that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world, and he apparently wrote in one of the databooks that Shanks is a swordsman. It seems the author disagrees with you, although I'm honestly not sure if you actually care about that.


Sengoku said he's the strongest man in the world.
That is all.

Squard physically stabbed whitebeard, that's objective fact.
The title is literally just his in verse title.

Mihawk has the title of world's strongest swordsman because he's never met Vista and Shanks and him haven't fought since they were mid or high tiers.

These aren't difficult things, you're just unwilling to admit to basic facts.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 11, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> @Dunno
> The Problem with Argument is that You assume What ist Being refered to in The introduction Box is an author comment. You Cant sell that assumption as a fact without anything to Back It Up especially since it IS more than likely wrong given What The Manga has shown us Afterwards.


All text that is not said by a character is by definition a statement by the narrator. Just like all actions being shown in pictures are by definition statements by the narrator. If you read a book which says "James has brown hair.", then James has brown hair. It doesn't refer to his or anyone else's understanding. If the same book reads "James is the tallest man in the world.", then James is the tallest man in the world. The same is true in this case. 

The manga has shown us nothing to indicate that Whitebeard wasn't the strongest man in the world, in fact Oda had him fight Akainu severely injured and still had him come out on top. Also, subjective interpretations < canonical facts. How strong Whitebeard looked judging by the pictures is extremely subjective. How strong Whitebeard was according to Oda is objective, he was the strongest man in the world. 

I think the problem is that you people don't accept that the text in the manga is part of the manga just as much as the pictures. There is no hierarchy. Pictures aren't superior to text.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 11, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Sengoku said he's the strongest man in the world.
> That is all.
> 
> Squard physically stabbed whitebeard, that's objective fact.
> ...


I think the problem is that you don't accept that the text in the manga is part of the manga just as much as the pictures. Let me just ask you something. When you read a book without pictures, do you consider anything in the book to be canon?


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 12, 2018)

Dunno said:


> All text that is not said by a character is by definition a statement by the narrator. Just like all actions being shown in pictures are by definition statements by the narrator. If you read a book which says "James has brown hair.", then James has brown hair. It doesn't refer to his or anyone else's understanding. If the same book reads "James is the tallest man in the world.", then James is the tallest man in the world. The same is true in this case.
> 
> The manga has shown us nothing to indicate that Whitebeard wasn't the strongest man in the world, in fact Oda had him fight Akainu severely injured and still had him come out on top. Also, subjective interpretations < canonical facts. How strong Whitebeard looked judging by the pictures is extremely subjective. How strong Whitebeard was according to Oda is objective, he was the strongest man in the world.
> 
> I think the problem is that you people don't accept that the text in the manga is part of the manga just as much as the pictures. There is no hierarchy. Pictures aren't superior to text.



Again where is the proof of that? And how does that contradict what I said? You don't know if the narrator is introducing whitebeard with his title or actually just stating a fact. Whether you define that as a narrator's statement or not has no bearing.  It's like arguing if someone shows an introduction box for fujitora and said box calls him admiral that that wouldn't be his title just because it's coming from the narrator. Can't you see how fallacious that is?


----------



## Exping (Mar 12, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> We know a lot, it's just that it's shown and not told.
> He was on his belly with a stab wound in his back.
> We know now that you can put a devil fruit into a nearby fruit of it's type if you kill the host.
> We knew his body was found in the rain on the dock.
> ...



Ace is not even on doflamingo level, he went toe to toe with smoker and doflamingo smashed smoker, even vergo smashed smoker

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 13, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> We know a lot, it's just that it's shown and not told.
> He was on his belly with a stab wound in his back.
> We know now that you can put a devil fruit into a nearby fruit of it's type if you kill the host.
> We knew his body was found in the rain on the dock.
> ...




ace has no feats to put him at the same level as doflamingo.


----------



## Luceus (Mar 13, 2018)

The admirals should duke it out. The individual strenghts are huge.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 13, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> ace has no feats to put him at the same level as doflamingo.


Except clashing equally on scale of aoe with aokiji
All but equalizing (he narrowly lost in a giant power clash) against yami blackbeard.
Vista being > Doflamingo
A weaker Ace teaming with Thatch against the Decalvan Brothers (Ace was weaker while thatch was stronger than them, and they probably won)
Honestly Ace is pretty much Doflamingo leveled exactly.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 13, 2018)

Exping said:


> Ace is not even on doflamingo level, he went toe to toe with smoker and doflamingo smashed smoker, even vergo smashed smoker


Ace vs Smoker was simply because Ace was holding Smoker off. It's like downplaying dragon who used uranus only to push smoker away, by saying Dragon didn't kill pre skip smoker (and not even marineford smoker who was said to be much stronger). Let's not act like Ace wasn't showing feats that are impressive by post skip standards pre skip even before marineford, from the ship and surfing feat to the blackbeard fight to marineford.

The simple fact is this: Ace is doflamingo level, not above, not below.

Doflamingo beat a Smoker who was literally covered in bandages already with unknown amount of difficulty since the entire fight was off panel. Also you act like monet didn't beat Smoker around the same time and Luffy was in good condition =w=

These are the feats we have for Smoker (post skip):
1) Had a very intense fight with Law which showed that Smoker could physically overpower a 100% stamina'd Law, but whoever won would have done it in one hit, and Law used trickery not power to win. The same move wouldn't have worked twice. Smoker even almost beat Law with his jutte thrust. 
2) Was beating a buso using serious Vergo (who wasn't in full body though), then changed combat style mid battle to a style that Vergo even said himself is a stupid thing to do and only made him an easier target, all because he was trying to steal the heart attack without him knowing. (law's heart).
3) Smoker while covered in bandages after his previous fights and having no time to actually heal, faced a 100% doflamingo off panel and did vastly better than a fresh Sanji at the very least despite being so weakened. Honestly a comparison would be Luffy after the cracker fight, he was beat by low commanders pretty easily in the enraged army or whatever.

In the end, Law = Smoker = or > (small difference) Vergo
Law beat Vergo via hax and had to use a heavily draining technique that if Vergo had dodged, would have left Law in a position where he'd get thrashed, Vergo simply believed his buso would hold up.
Smoker vs Law was close
Smoker vs Vergo was Smoker winning then allowing himself to be hit by changing to a style that he wouldn't normally use to sneak the heart away without him knowing cuz if Smoker had been winning, Vergo would have killed Law before going down and Smoker couldn't easily defeat Vergo.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 13, 2018)

Dunno said:


> I think the problem is that you don't accept that the text in the manga is part of the manga just as much as the pictures. Let me just ask you something. When you read a book without pictures, do you consider anything in the book to be canon?


It's part of the manga, but it doesn't mean it's true. Pekoms saying he's whoever he said he was, doesn't stop him from being pekoms.

World's Strongest Man
World's Strongest Swordsman

These are their in verse titles. Those title things aren't oda talking to us, those are in verse titles.


----------



## Exping (Mar 13, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Ace vs Smoker was simply because Ace was holding Smoker off. It's like downplaying dragon who used uranus only to push smoker away, by saying Dragon didn't kill pre skip smoker (and not even marineford smoker who was said to be much stronger). Let's not act like Ace wasn't showing feats that are impressive by post skip standards pre skip even before marineford, from the ship and surfing feat to the blackbeard fight to marineford.
> 
> The simple fact is this: Ace is doflamingo level, not above, not below.
> 
> ...


well ok, but you mentioned ace aoe vs aokiji  aoe,  that doesn't show us anything cuz fire is suppoed to be more effective against ice, Ace relies too much on his DF so he just got whooped by Blackbeard when he got countered


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 13, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> whitebeard even at old age and illness was still introduced as the WOrld's strongest man
> 
> 
> 
> it's not like as if his illness was some kind of secret to the whole world right?


That's a nice title he has, even though no one knows his health is so bad that he's hooked up to machines 24/7. In the end Whitebeard was the best when he was healthy, at least among men, then his health decreased.

Whitebeard's title was that.
Another thing: Kaidou is not a man. Man is in that context a race, the race of Man is stuff like Gondor and Rohan in Lord of the Rings, then there are elves and stuff. Legolas is still a male, but he's not of the race of Man.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 13, 2018)

Exping said:


> well ok, but you mentioned ace aoe vs aokiji  aoe,  that doesn't show us anything cuz fire is suppoed to be more effective against ice, Ace relies too much on his DF so he just got whooped by Blackbeard when he got countered


You could argue that ice is effective against fire too, be it from the super low temperatures, the fact that aokiji has a cold effect and not simply ice creation and that would reduce oxygen and stuff, and the fact that ice turns to water. In the end Ace is able to hang with Aokiji if they just flung aoe at each other all day.

Not sure what fight you're talking about, Ace vs Blackbeard was pretty much equal. Ace stabbed Blackbeard and made him roll around in pain and stuff, Blackbeard is just extremely powerful himself, even with just the yami yami.
Ace vs Blackbeard literally ended with a equalish power clash that blackbeard off panel edged out on.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> @Dunno
> The Problem with Argument is that You assume What ist Being refered to in The introduction Box is an author comment. You Cant sell that assumption as a fact without anything to Back It Up especially since it IS more than likely wrong given What The Manga has shown us Afterwards.



It's pretty obvious the title boxes are in-verse perceptions. Dunno is a troll and baiter though. Don't expect reality to change his views.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 14, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Nothing points Rayleigh as being anything more than the Marco of the crew. You act like Vista and others weren't listening to Marco's orders.
> 
> Also it's only head canon that makes Rayleigh special as a first mate relative to his captain. He might have an edge over Marco back then cuz Pirate King > Yonkou and he's the first mate relative to that, but to claim that he had any more actual strength than Marco or Katakuri just because they view their captain as their father figure is stupid.
> 
> ...



Rayleigh at his prime could be yonko level, I mean he was the right hand man of the pirate king.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 14, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> How the hell did you come up with the insane idea of Marco winning against kizaru?


Kizaru only hit Marco via outside means (marco turning to worry about whitebeard and another character helping him by sneaking up and putting seastone on marco)
Meanwhile Marco stopped and casually dealt with 2 kizaru attacks and overpowered Kizaru on a physical scale. Kizaru vs Marco would be cqc focused cuz Marco is intangible for non buso attacks and Marco has the edge up close.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 14, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Rayleigh at his prime could be yonko level, I mean he was the right hand man of the pirate king.


Could be =/= Was
Zoro (or maybe jinbei now) is the strongest member of the crew, Luffy is defeating Katakuri while Zoro is more Daifuku leveled. I mean Marco is the right hand man of Whitebeard, who was on equal grounds as Roger. Heck Marco's devil fruit even brings up the possibility that he's older than he seems.

That being said, maybe he loses power when he regenerates and has to earn it back, like say he died or something and came back like people are expecting now (but they suspect he'll be younger) thanks to his phoenix zoan, then maybe the marco we saw looked much younger than he actually was.


----------



## Exping (Mar 14, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You could argue that ice is effective against fire too, be it from the super low temperatures, the fact that aokiji has a cold effect and not simply ice creation and that would reduce oxygen and stuff, and the fact that ice turns to water. In the end Ace is able to hang with Aokiji if they just flung aoe at each other all day.
> 
> Not sure what fight you're talking about, Ace vs Blackbeard was pretty much equal. Ace stabbed Blackbeard and made him roll around in pain and stuff, Blackbeard is just extremely powerful himself, even with just the yami yami.
> Ace vs Blackbeard literally ended with a equalish power clash that blackbeard off panel edged out on.


nah , if it was doflamingo in that case he would have beaten BB for sure. Ace is not at dofla post time skip level.

And Ace counter aokiji cuz he can just unfreeze himself with flame, remember when WB unfroze himself with quake? Ace relie on his DF way too much and


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 14, 2018)

Exping said:


> nah , if it was doflamingo in that case he would have beaten BB for sure. Ace is not at dofla post time skip level.
> 
> And Ace counter aokiji cuz he can just unfreeze himself with flame, remember when WB unfroze himself with quake? Ace relie on his DF way too much and


First part is 100% up to debate, we have no way to gauge that. We do know that Mihawk and Vista are likely stronger than Doflamingo though and that Ace is the next strongest so honestly they are probably around equal.

As far as Ace vs Aokiji, they both countered each other. Aokiji never actually froze Ace, you act like Aokiji overpowered Ace and Ace just used his devil fruit to save himself, both were clashing equally.

You say Ace relies on his devil fruit too much but we've seen Ace flip around, make a spear of fire, take a direct hit from Blackbeard without his devil fruit to hide behind and keep fighting, etc etc. Ace doesn't rely on his devil fruit, people who rely on their devil fruit too much are taken out by people like pekoms.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Exping (Mar 14, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> First part is 100% up to debate, we have no way to gauge that. We do know that Mihawk and Vista are likely stronger than Doflamingo though and that Ace is the next strongest so honestly they are probably around equal.
> 
> As far as Ace vs Aokiji, they both countered each other. Aokiji never actually froze Ace, you act like Aokiji overpowered Ace and Ace just used his devil fruit to save himself, both were clashing equally.
> 
> You say Ace relies on his devil fruit too much but we've seen Ace flip around, make a spear of fire, take a direct hit from Blackbeard without his devil fruit to hide behind and keep fighting, etc etc. Ace doesn't rely on his devil fruit, people who rely on their devil fruit too much are taken out by people like pekoms.


depends on how powerful the DF is and how weak the guy is at haki/ combat, pekoms ain't taking out enel caliber DF and ace is up there. cuz we all know caribou DF is bad

Ace definitely not on Doflamingo level if they both did not have DF. Much more impressive armament haki coming from doflamingo and he got 2v1 by law and luffy, which would be more than enough for ace


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 14, 2018)

Exping said:


> depends on how powerful the DF is and how weak the guy is at haki/ combat, pekoms ain't taking out enel caliber DF and ace is up there. cuz we all know caribou DF is bad
> 
> Ace definitely not on Doflamingo level if they both did not have DF. Much more impressive armament haki coming from doflamingo and he got 2v1 by law and luffy, which would be more than enough for ace


What evidence do you have that pekoms couldn't stop Enel? Yes Luffy was immune to some damage that would have normally beat him, yes Enel had decent range of his kenbunshoku, and yes luffy was able to physically hit enel due to being rubber, but luffy didn't even have gears yet.

Pekoms >>>>>>>>> Marineford Luffy >> Enies Lobby Luffy >>>>>>>>>>>>> Luffy who beat Enel with all those benefits.

Pekoms is a high tier who has a moderate level of busoshoku haki. 

Ace is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enel as well.

Is Caribou's df bad? He pulled out a damn gatling gun out of his nigh unlimited storage his devil fruit allows, he has intangibility, he can bind people with his devil fruit, etc.

What evidence do you have that Ace is weaker than Doflamingo? We didn't see anyone using haki pre skip cuz luffy couldn't use it so any haki feats is irrelevant and we know Ace had haoshoku. 
Law was at 40% stamina at that point, which is directly proportional to how strong his techniques are.

Luffy isn't beat Ace without G4.


----------



## Exping (Mar 14, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> What evidence do you have that pekoms couldn't stop Enel? Yes Luffy was immune to some damage that would have normally beat him, yes Enel had decent range of his kenbunshoku, and yes luffy was able to physically hit enel due to being rubber, but luffy didn't even have gears yet.
> 
> Pekoms >>>>>>>>> Marineford Luffy >> Enies Lobby Luffy >>>>>>>>>>>>> Luffy who beat Enel with all those benefits.
> 
> ...




cuz Enel too fast for Pekoms plain and simple. Even pre time skip,
Luffy beat Enel cuz plot armor, so if u gnna put the main char vs anyone and he needs to win then he will. Luffy entire kit counters him so you can't argue much, enel was surprised cuz there wasn't that substance at skypeia. do you realise how hax enel DF is? he would definetly beat Pekoms if post time skip if he got any stronger. He can revive himself and if Enel actually went down from skypeia he would wreck a bunch of ppl with his DF alone.

Ace is weaker than doflamingo cuz his durability is garbage, bb punched him and he was down crying meanwhile it took so much attacks from luffy and law to even beat him.

Doflamingo > Ace 
and YES caribou df is bad if you compare it to enel and ace. Would you rather have that df over Enel and Ace? Didn't think so


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 15, 2018)

Exping said:


> cuz Enel too fast for Pekoms plain and simple. Even pre time skip,
> Luffy beat Enel cuz plot armor, so if u gnna put the main char vs anyone and he needs to win then he will. Luffy entire kit counters him so you can't argue much, enel was surprised cuz there wasn't that substance at skypeia. do you realise how hax enel DF is? he would definetly beat Pekoms if post time skip if he got any stronger. He can revive himself and if Enel actually went down from skypeia he would wreck a bunch of ppl with his DF alone.
> 
> Ace is weaker than doflamingo cuz his durability is garbage, bb punched him and he was down crying meanwhile it took so much attacks from luffy and law to even beat him.
> ...


Based on what? Enel's best feat is speed blitzing pre enies lobby zoro. 

Luffy beat Enel via match up, Enel was stronger than Luffy but Pekoms is stronger. Enel if he was much stronger than Luffy wouldn't have lost even with the disadvantages. Honestly g2 luffy could probably beat enel (pre skip enel, post skip will be stronger) if you allow him to hit enel but take away the immunity luffy had.

If someone on pre skip pre gears luffy level had a superior advantage over pekoms, pekoms would still bitch slap them away. Enel has strong kenbunshoku and devil fruit, but that isn't enough to beat a high tier with haki. 

Doesn't matter if he can revive himself, he'll get beat down by Pekoms, I don't know why this is so controversial. Akainu wouldn't lose to someone who hard countered his ability but was a mid tier (even post gears luffy pre skip)

Lol you are ignoring canon.
Blackbeard was the one rolling around cuz he was hit by Ace, Ace was the one who internally monologued that Blackbeard hit like a brickhouse. Ace was defeated after a giant power clash of their strongest attacks off panel. 

Do you imagine Law being fine after being hit by Blackbeard's giant admiral leveled aoe attack?

Ace was objectively not one hit by BB, saying so is just ignorant and retarded. 

Caribou's devil fruit if it allows him to do large aoe attacks is superior to ace's devil fruit, and probably enels as well. Caribou just was a middle or weakling trio leveled character with a super powerful devil fruit. (post skip versions of those trios I mean)

Ace isn't a glass window like you claim he is, sorry that Ace is stronger than you think.


----------



## Exping (Mar 15, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Based on what? Enel's best feat is speed blitzing pre enies lobby zoro.
> 
> Luffy beat Enel via match up, Enel was stronger than Luffy but Pekoms is stronger. Enel if he was much stronger than Luffy wouldn't have lost even with the disadvantages. Honestly g2 luffy could probably beat enel (pre skip enel, post skip will be stronger) if you allow him to hit enel but take away the immunity luffy had.
> 
> ...



actually DF counter is important, Doflamingo pre time skip was able to stop jozu who obv had some haki and as you said was on admiral lvl or close to it. Doubt pekoms can touch enel cuz enel can fly and is faster just with his DF. 

Again Ace has a destructive DF so he was able to injure BB, in the anime allt he damage he did was from his DF to BB if in the manga he did something different then ok. But BB sucked ace in and pounded him and we didn't even see ace try to defend himself with haki. Ace body just isn't as durable as doflamingo, his DF is the only thing that can make him on DF level.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 15, 2018)

Exping said:


> actually DF counter is important, Doflamingo pre time skip was able to stop jozu who obv had some haki and as you said was on admiral lvl or close to it. Doubt pekoms can touch enel cuz enel can fly and is faster just with his DF.
> 
> Again Ace has a destructive DF so he was able to injure BB, in the anime allt he damage he did was from his DF to BB if in the manga he did something different then ok. But BB sucked ace in and pounded him and we didn't even see ace try to defend himself with haki. Ace body just isn't as durable as doflamingo, his DF is the only thing that can make him on DF level.


Doflamingo had full blindside capabilities and it was only like 14 seconds long and he didn't do any damage. It's not like Jozu faced Doflamingo then Doflamingo parasited him like nothing.

Manga fight of Ace vs Blackbeard:
Ace hits Blackbeard with a Hiken
Blackbeard rolled around in pain
Blackbeard then demonstrating his dark hole like powers on the town while Ace casually watched like "why aren't you attacking me?"
Then Ace taunted him by hitting him with a Hidaruma while taunting him.
Blackbeard rolled around in pain then activated his darkness to absorb the flames on him
Then Blackbeard used Kurouzu to suck Ace in
Grabbed on him so he couldn't use his devil fruit, then punched Ace and sent him flying into some rubble
Ace got up and got KUrouzu'd again after some talk
Ace used Shinka Shiranui to pierce Blackbeard with two fire spears but was hit by a karate chop to the neck that nearly broke Ace's neck.
Both were hurt but Ace fired his attack off first (showing he recovered quicker) and used a Jujika on him
Some off panel fighting happened
Then Ace was on his knees and forearms panting, then got back up and then used Dai Enkai Entai

Blackbeard used his equivalent of a entai and the two big attacks clashed apparently equally then the chapter ended without a definite answer on what happened till we saw Ace way down the line in impel down.

Enel can move fast, but his reaction time isn't that fast, he was tagged by pre timeskip pre gears luffy we have to remember. Pekoms can easily hit him.

We saw only mentions of people using haki pre timeskip, never saw any haki, we just have to assume every person who had haki was using haki throughout their fights but we couldn't see it.

We can't underestimate Blackbeard honestly, he was a top commander leveled character arguably even before getting the yami yami. He left a scar on shanks who directly said he wasn't being careless.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 15, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Could no injure him? Where would the injury come from? Maybe a bruise on the arm under Kizaru's shirt? His attack didn't go through the defense and hit Kizaru in the face, it simply displaced him with extreme power towards the ground and Kizaru turned to light to avoid the crashing damage, the only spot he hit Kizaru was on the arm when Kizaru blocked and then pushed Kizaru to the ground. No damage would have occurred except maybe Kizaru getting an arm bruise at the most.
> 
> G3 Luffy overpowered Fujitora and Luffy used his strongest attack to date on Cracker, he wasn't able to land any kong organs (rapid fire kong guns) and stuff and Cracker is exceptionally fast. Anyway just raw gravity won't stop cracker, cracker isn't a mid tier, Ishoo would have to do stuff like throw meteors at Cracker who can avoid them and his biscuit soldiers can probably repel them (maybe at the expense of a shield that can be reformed)
> Meanwhile Kizaru would be getting ganked by a barrage of biscuit soldiers who have powerful sword thrusts.
> ...



Ice has a lot smaller dencity than meteorites,genius.Fujitora>Jozu

Lastly,Law and Doflamingo avoided asteroid hitting them because the have cutting powers,and Jozu won't overpower a metorite with raw strenght.

marco could probably stalemate an admiral because of his regeneration but he really isnt going to beat him.
Again,all you have to say that Marco kicked Kizaru.And that is some sort of evidence that he had the edge over him?No,that means that he was someone capable of fighting an admiral.Kizaru doesn't limit his powers,but he doesn't use his full potential,because his usual trolling is sometimes more than enough to defeat his opponents.Maybe in the future against Sanji or when he faces someone im full on battle,but as for now,we have least information about his full potential.Marco has great regeneration,but it is not unlimited.Also,he doesn't have unlimited stamina,so his durability and endurance would decrease eventually,and as human of normal stature,I doubt he is all that durable.Akainu,on the other hand,is a god damn monster in those aspects.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 15, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Unnamed attack
> 2) Akainu failed to defeat Aokiji for 10 days, meaning Admiral > Akainu > Aokiji, right?
> 3) Akainu: "ugh", physically shaking in pain in the above panel, and complaining about the pain.
> 
> Try again.



He was doing all that because of  know,when you stuck in traffic or bump your toe into  are not hurt really,but you still find it annoying.That is what happened.And again,I'm not expecting them to DEFEAT him,but DO SOMETHING to him other than annoy him.In the manga and in the anime attacks annoyed  when mosquito bites  are not hurt or anything,but it's unpleasant.Also,he was annoyed by their attempts at preventing him do his job.If it was Buggy he had to deal with,I bet that would somewhat piss him,in addition to the attack.Yes,they kinda did appear out of nowhere and ganged up on him.Also,even if someone names their attacks,that doesn't necesarelly apply to their haki attacks.Even Luffy doesn't name all his haki attacks.I didn't except them to defeat him,but that are two top commanders of a yonko sneak-attacking an admiral with haki.I excepted something that would actually work at stopping him or causing some injury.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 15, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Doflamingo had full blindside capabilities and it was only like 14 seconds long and he didn't do any damage. It's not like Jozu faced Doflamingo then Doflamingo parasited him like nothing.
> 
> Manga fight of Ace vs Blackbeard:
> Ace hits Blackbeard with a Hiken
> ...



Blackbeard without a fruit was at most low commander level,just being a commander doesn't mean you are amazingly strong.

When he got Yami Yami fruit,he leveled up to top yonko commander,when he got Gura Gura fruit,but didn't train it,he was maybe admiral level.Right now,after two years of training,he is yonko level.

I'm not saying that BB is weak without a fruit because he is not,but he is not something special either.Maybe in terms of endurance,but that's  for his strenght,he is 14 feet tall or something,anyone of that size would almost broke Ace's neck if he could hit him.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 15, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Blackbeard without a fruit was at most low commander level,just being a commander doesn't mean you are amazingly strong.
> 
> When he got Yami Yami fruit,he leveled up to top yonko commander,when he got Gura Gura fruit,but didn't train it,he was maybe admiral level.Right now,after two years of training,he is yonko level.
> 
> I'm not saying that BB is weak without a fruit because he is not,but he is not something special either.Maybe in terms of endurance,but that's  for his strenght,he is 14 feet tall or something,anyone of that size would almost broke Ace's neck if he could hit him.


So you're claiming that bobbin could permanently scar a shanks who wasn't being careless? That's cute.
So you're claiming Ace lost to someone as strong as moriah with a decent devil fruit? (one of the low commanders if whitebeard pirates was clashing with moriah) Sorry but that's stupid.

Blackbeard hid his power and was waiting for the yami yami. Blackbeard IS special. I like how you're trying to downplay Ace by making up bullshit about Blackbeard being fodder physically.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 15, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> He was doing all that because of  know,when you stuck in traffic or bump your toe into  are not hurt really,but you still find it annoying.That is what happened.And again,I'm not expecting them to DEFEAT him,but DO SOMETHING to him other than annoy him.In the manga and in the anime attacks annoyed  when mosquito bites  are not hurt or anything,but it's unpleasant.Also,he was annoyed by their attempts at preventing him do his job.If it was Buggy he had to deal with,I bet that would somewhat piss him,in addition to the attack.Yes,they kinda did appear out of nowhere and ganged up on him.Also,even if someone names their attacks,that doesn't necesarelly apply to their haki attacks.Even Luffy doesn't name all his haki attacks.I didn't except them to defeat him,but that are two top commanders of a yonko sneak-attacking an admiral with haki.I excepted something that would actually work at stopping him or causing some injury.


It's idiotic that people argue against the marco and vista attacking akainu thing.
He showed multiple signs of pain and yet people just ignore it since they want to downplay the whitebeard pirates and up-play the admiral wank. 

Lol at comparing it to being stuck in traffic, you're fucking delusional, psychopathic even. 

Akainu: 
1) Groaned in pain
2) Gritted his teeth
3) Was displaced (knocked back)
4) Complained about them being haki users

Sorry but I can't take you seriously when your argument is so blatantly bullshit.

They injured him, they didn't maim him, but they injured him, objective fact.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 15, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Ice has a lot smaller dencity than meteorites,genius.Fujitora>Jozu
> 
> Lastly,Law and Doflamingo avoided asteroid hitting them because the have cutting powers,and Jozu won't overpower a metorite with raw strenght.
> 
> ...


Jozu > Fujitora
Sorry but Law could stop meteors, Jozu >>>>>>>>> Law

Lol at "oh doflamingo only was able to damage it cuz cutting", no, that's stupid. Jozu's glacier btw is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meteors
Jozu would not only overpower them meteorites with raw strength, he'd bitch slap them away or throw them back at Ishoo. 

Considering Marco was untouched by Kizaru, yeah, he had the marginal advantage over Kizaru. 

There you go making stuff up about characters holding back to try to save face for your favorite characters. 

Marco is a zoan (stamina, strength, speed), Marco has true flight (kizaru can simply float), Marco has soft intangibility, and Marco has regeneration. Marco doesn't need regeneration to keep up with an admiral, kizaru can't hit him at a range when he's focused and up close marco has the ever so slight edge, meaning marco could realistically win even without regeneration. 

You like to make things up.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 15, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Except that Garp being stronger than Akainu.
> Garp is a whitebeard rival and he wasn't held back by a horrible sickness like Whitebeard was even before all the in marineford nerfs Whitebeard got before still beating Akainu.
> 
> Marco beats Akainu after a multi hour or day fight.



Garp vs akainu would be a tough fight but I think the admirals are above garp.

You are overrating garp too much just based on a few things we have seen.

His punch literally did nothing to marco while kizaru actually made Marco  bleed.

Garp is overrated he bleed profusely from the head from a 50 foot fall.

The only thing the admirals have to do is punch garp 100 feet into the air.since garp could not even tank a 50 foot fall,a 100 foot fall would surely kill him


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 16, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Marco  winning against kizaru just because he pushed him back is like saying jimbei was winning against big mom because he push him back.
> 
> 
> How the hell did you come up with the insane conclusion that big mom would low to mid difficulty akainu?big mom can't even capture the straw hats and is getting pushed back by JimBei lol


Saying Kizaru wins against Marco just because he blindsided him is like saying the yeti cool brothers can beat zoro in a direct fight just because they beat him with a blindside. 
Actually saying that would be a bigger stretch actually since they did actually beat him with a blindside.

If weaker characters than zoro beat him thanks to a blindside, marco being hit by kizaru and still fighting is literally the worst argument that he's weaker than kizaru.

Big Mom tanked an attack bigger than anything akainu has shown.
Big Mom casually swatted aside Luffy.
Luffy could hang with Akainu at this point. (at least pre skip akainu)

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 16, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Garp vs akainu would be a tough fight but I think the admirals are above garp.
> 
> You are overrating garp too much just based on a few things we have seen.
> 
> ...


I can maybe see Akainu reaching old Garp level thanks to the timeskip and his promotion thrusting him into more power to contrast chinjao losing it after his luffy defeat.

Garp wasn't trying to hurt Marco really, just stop him from Ace, he was the most conflicted character at marineford, he even hesitated to punch Marco, not that it matters, Marco was arguably hurt more from that punch than multiple blindsides by kizaru.

Garp got cut by an axe and he didn't even wake up from it, blood is kind of a moot point.

People bleed when holes or cuts are made over a punch.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 16, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> If garp would win against pre timeskip akainu  okay,but with how much difficulty?post timeskip akainu would be stronger han garp as akainu gained strength and garp has retired and is not doing anything


I mean all we have to go off of is power scale.
Garp in old age would realistically be Whitebeard in old age but not having a devil fruit that retains it's power, plus without the major health issues.

Whitebeard was a physical monster in old age even with the health issues and while Garp wouldn't ahve a quake fruit to help dish out more power and would be having a reduced punching power than his prime, he still doesn't have to deal with the health issues, so realistically Garp could be stronger than Whitebeard who beat Akainu despite 1000 nerfs.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 17, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> That's the thing though, Thatch was a core member of the crew, meanwhile Ace was a late addition who filled a missing commander spot. If we got a new commander, if the whitebeards had got another commander before ace was captured, he'd fill the Thatch position even if he was the weakest commander. In verse it doesn't mean anything but as far as the series it kind of does. Ace was filling a spot while Thatch had his spot already. Thatch also was portrayed as one of the core Whitebeard commanders.
> 
> Overall it goes Whitebeard, Marco, Jozu, Thatch, Vista, Ace, then people like Blamenco.
> 
> ...



Just because he talked to Ace a lot,which is also partly an anime filler,that doesn't mean he is a "core" member,that just means he is very relaxed,open to a conversation and social.Jozu is a core member of the crew,and yet Ace wasn't shown talking to him.
He was a good friend to Ace,but that's it.He was probably mid-or-low tier commander,and another mid-or-low tier commander wouldn't change anything at Marineford.
Thatch needed Ace's help against one of their future allies,while Ace defeated another by himself.Besides,allied captains are probably low-tier commanders,mid tier of they are someting special.Strongest one was Oars Jr.,but why would Whitebeard gave him the command of the attack if he is stupid like shit.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 17, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Doflamingo had full blindside capabilities and it was only like 14 seconds long and he didn't do any damage. It's not like Jozu faced Doflamingo then Doflamingo parasited him like nothing.
> 
> Manga fight of Ace vs Blackbeard:
> Ace hits Blackbeard with a Hiken
> ...



Blackbeard could have become a commander,but no one said top commander.Just because it was the 2nd devision,that doesn't mean he was as strong as Ace before he got the Yami Yami no mi.Number of the devison doesn't indicate anything,as Oda confirmed.burgess for example was the commander of 1st division of blackbeard pirates,he sure as hell was not the Strongest ,sabo defeated burgess with low to no difficulty while sabo struggled against fujitora
About Shanks and the scar,we know too little about it to draw any conclusions yet..


----------



## X18999 (Mar 17, 2018)

Luffy at 19 years old just became First Mate level... the idea that Ace didn't even reach top commander level at 20 when he seemed to have more potential than Luffy and even had a better DF (a logia type no less) is just stupid.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 17, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Fujitora could barely handle a non-serious G2/3 Luffy and had to resort to his fruit to get an advantage. Contrast this to Cracker who demolished a serious G2/3  Luffy
> 
> Show me a panel of Kizaru blitzing a top tier commander I'll wait Besides the AoE that is not relevant to top tier fights that get concluded in cqc what do they have above Kata? COO???COA???? Na son try again. The fact that he can even do the same logia type trick to dodge haki attacks should have indicated to you that admirals are top Commander level like I've been saying for years.
> 
> ...



fujitora was not even being serious against luffy.
fujitora is an Admiral that was a fan of Luffy and had to pretend that he was doing his job.
akainu felt marco's and vista's attacks and was simply irritated by thier attacks,he didnt use the logia trick which katakuri uses


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 17, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> No they aren't mosquito bites, while akainu could destroy those attacks with an attack of his own or someone can defend against them with a successful buso strike, sorry but no. If LUffy is sliced with a sword right now, he's going to be hurt (and he did by cracker), it's just that those sort of attacks can usually be avoided versus weaker people.
> I get it, you love Akainu, but you're not listening to reason:
> 
> 
> ...



*Whitebeard was so nerfed at marineford that he would have gotten mid diff'd by any of the yonkou at the most, if not low diff'd. Big Mom, Kaidou, and Shanks would have had no trouble with him*.



That wouldn't make sense.Like Oda was going with this approach:"Here you go guys,one of the 4 strongest pirates in the world,former rival of Pirate king himself etc.Oh,by the the way he isn't even strong as those other Emperor.In fact,he is Yonko for no real reason except his past glory".
That would make no sense.It wouldn't make sense to introduce the strongest one either,and that's why I don't agree that he was the strongest character,but he was still yonko level.
For me,it goes-Shanks>=Kaido>Big mom>=Whitebeard.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 17, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *Whitebeard was so nerfed at marineford that he would have gotten mid diff'd by any of the yonkou at the most, if not low diff'd. Big Mom, Kaidou, and Shanks would have had no trouble with him*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He went into the battle heavily sick
Squard backstabbed him and other clashes reduced his health so that he had a heart attack
Then akainu got a free shot on him
Tons of people ganked him from vice admirals on
By the time akainu vs whitebeard happened, whitebeard would be mid diff'd by any yonkou. 

The point of marineford was that he didn't lose to one man, he lost to a whole army and a large assortment of bad luck/nerfs. 

Kaidou > Big Mom > Shanks and Blackbeard 
Whitebeard healthy and old would be around kaidou leveled in my view, and I think kaidou has recently gained power.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 17, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> That's the thing though, Thatch was a core member of the crew, meanwhile Ace was a late addition who filled a missing commander spot. If we got a new commander, if the whitebeards had got another commander before ace was captured, he'd fill the Thatch position even if he was the weakest commander. In verse it doesn't mean anything but as far as the series it kind of does. Ace was filling a spot while Thatch had his spot already. Thatch also was portrayed as one of the core Whitebeard commanders.
> 
> Overall it goes Whitebeard, Marco, Jozu, Thatch, Vista, Ace, then people like Blamenco.
> 
> ...


Just because he talked to Ace a lot,which is also partly an anime filler,that doesn't mean he is a "core" member,that just means he is very relaxed,open to a conversation and social.Jozu is a core member of the crew,and yet Ace wasn't shown talking to him.
He was a good friend to Ace,but that's it.He was probably mid-or-low tier commander,and another mid-or-low tier commander wouldn't change anything at Marineford.
Thatch needed Ace's help against one of their future allies,while Ace defeated another by himself.Besides,allied captains are probably low-tier commanders,mid tier of they are someting special.Strongest one was Oars Jr.,but why would Whitebeard gave him thecommand of the attack if he is stupid like shit.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 18, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Just because he talked to Ace a lot,which is also partly an anime filler,that doesn't mean he is a "core" member,that just means he is very relaxed,open to a conversation and social.Jozu is a core member of the crew,and yet Ace wasn't shown talking to him.
> He was a good friend to Ace,but that's it.He was probably mid-or-low tier commander,and another mid-or-low tier commander wouldn't change anything at Marineford.
> Thatch needed Ace's help against one of their future allies,while Ace defeated another by himself.Besides,allied captains are probably low-tier commanders,mid tier of they are someting special.Strongest one was Oars Jr.,but why would Whitebeard gave him thecommand of the attack if he is stupid like shit.


Ace was the exception of the order rule cuz he was replacing a missing position (division 2 lost their commander)

Needed help? It was 2 v 2 and said ally was second strongest. 

Honestly it was built up like Thatch was babysitting Ace and they were stronger than Ace but weaker than Thatch. 

Squard was the one who was in charge of the allies, then the decalvan brothers. Oars jr is one of the core allies but Squard > Decalvan Brothers > Oars Jr or someone else

Thatch was backstabbed by blackbeard after eating the yami yami no mi in the stealth of a storm in the middle of the night out on the dock.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 18, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> fujitora was not even being serious against luffy.
> fujitora is an Admiral that was a fan of Luffy and had to pretend that he was doing his job.
> akainu felt marco's and vista's attacks and was simply irritated by thier attacks,he didnt use the logia trick which katakuri uses


You love making up fanfics huh? You think if you throw in enough stream of consciousness garbage it will somehow change the manga?
'*'fujitora was not even being serious against luffy*.''

Fujitora disagrees with you big boy:
''Fujitora: When two men face one another in battle, they have their status to uphold!!!
Luffy: !!''
''Fujitora: Are you truly a fool......?! // *pant* // ......!!! Here I am, staying true to my position no matter how I may feel...!!! // *pant*''

And then he tries to execute them moments after the fight but I'm sure he wasn't serious Let's just ignore what he said and tried to do.

''*akainu felt marco's and vista's attacks and was simply irritated by thier attacks,he didnt use the logia trick which katakuri uses*''
Not one fact was seen. If he didn't do the logia trick then he would have been cut and bleeding you clown


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 18, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> You love making up fanfics huh? You think if you throw in enough stream of consciousness garbage it will somehow change the manga?
> '*'fujitora was not even being serious against luffy*.''
> 
> Fujitora disagrees with you big boy:
> ...


Akainu was objectively damaged by Marco and Vista though.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 18, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Akainu was objectively damaged by Marco and Vista though.


The way I see it you need to be calm for CoO to work effectively according to Kata. Marco and Vista were emotional cause Ace died and that's why they didn't fully connect. They were probably halfway between connecting fully and not connecting at all. He did feel pain I agree with that.

If Marco was in the same composed state he was against Kizaru, then he would have hurt Akainu much more. He would have torn parts of his shoulder and face off.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 18, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Whitebeard had 5 before Thatch died.
> 4 after Ace died
> WB commanders means wb crew so I won't remove Marco just cuz he's the captain now.
> 
> ...



You are overestimating the commanders. The admirals were a challenge for a Marco, he was not fighting equally. In the scene where Marco attacks Kizaru you can clearly see that Kizaru is not really bothered by Marcos attack. He talks shit to Marco saying something like "that hurt", while blocking his kick after which Marco replies with "Stop lying!" and kicks Kizaru away who transforms into his elements and regenerates. Marco can fight Kizaru but Kizaru is superior and Marcos knows his attack did not do shit to Kizaru. Not sure where the admiral level here is.

Also Marco was not constanrly fighting admirals. A sneak attack on Aokiji, a counter attack on Kizaru is a proof he is admiral level? Not very convincing.

That Marco kicking kizaru only proves that Marco is somewhat capable of at least stalling an admiral.marco did not even come close to winning against kizaru,while kizaru was trolling all the time and Marco was serious.

Aokiji defeated Jozu and the commanders did not show that they superior to the admirals. However the admirals alone were a big threat for WB Pirates.

Dont understand why a commander would be on the same level as a admiral. Haki-wise a admiral is already superior. Admirals are fighting Yonkos and you come and say Commanders like Marco = Admiral Levels because Marco kicked Kizaru and stopped a attack from a Akainu.

If i use the same logic as you then for example a Sir Crocodile would be Yonko Level if he did the same thing as Marco but to someone like a Kaido maybe. Do you see how retarded that logic is.

Just because you feel Marco is Admiral Level it doesnt make him Admiral Level. Admirals and Yonkos are the strongest OP characters and are in the Top Tier.

A commander and shichibukai are under that Tier.

Akainu proved that he can take it with all the wb pirates. How cant you see that does shows Marco is not admiral level? If Marco alone is admiral Level would he need his wb nakames to stop an injured Akainu??? Of course not! This alone is a prove that Marco is no way Admiral Level.

So many characters can stop a admirals attack and attack them back. In 1 vs 1 any admiral would defeat Marco

Akainu is fighting Whitebeard without fear and with full confidence because Akainu belongs in the Top Tier and can fight Yonkos. But Marco is admiral level just because he stopped attacks? You have to do more rhan stop attacks. You have to properly damage someone. Diamond Jozu damaged Aokiji ams at first i thought that Jozu seems to be on at level but then he got defeated and i was like "Ah, he is not admiral level". Commanders can give a Admiral a good match bit thats it


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 18, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> He went into the battle heavily sick
> Squard backstabbed him and other clashes reduced his health so that he had a heart attack
> Then akainu got a free shot on him
> Tons of people ganked him from vice admirals on
> ...



His heart attack was caused by the stress of fighting,and the Squardos stabb only had a minor role in that.The point of that was to show that a)even the strongest guys can be suprised and hurt and b)WB is tge G for not doing anything to Squardo.
Actually,when Akainu vs WB happened,WB was filled with rage and adrenaline because of Ace and his strength was greater than usuall.
That would make no sense.If they wanted to hype him as this man amongst man and larger than life fighter,the whole point of him being nerfed a lot and having bad luck would just diminish that.
Shanks is probably the strongest one,based on story,hype and forshadowings.
Kaido doesn't seem as someone young,so he was probably around for some time.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 18, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Ace was the exception of the order rule cuz he was replacing a missing position (division 2 lost their commander)
> 
> Needed help? It was 2 v 2 and said ally was second strongest.
> 
> ...



So what if Ace was a late-commer?He was still comander as any other.
Those two brothers were vice-admiral level at best,the fact that Thatch needed help to beat them says a lot about his strength.
Just because Squardo was in charge that doesn't mean he was the strongest.In Big mom's crew,Mon't Dor is the main strategist and everybody listens to his orders,but he is far from the strongest.You really think any of the captains could take down Oars?
Blackbeard ate the fruit after he killed Thatch.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 18, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> So what if Ace was a late-commer?He was still comander as any other.
> Those two brothers were vice-admiral level at best,the fact that Thatch needed help to beat them says a lot about his strength.
> Just because Squardo was in charge that doesn't mean he was the strongest.In Big mom's crew,Mon't Dor is the main strategist and everybody listens to his orders,but he is far from the strongest.You really think any of the captains could take down Oars?
> Blackbeard ate the fruit after he killed Thatch.


"Those two brothers were vice-admiral level at best"
Based on what? Also what kind of vice admirals? Vergo is top commander leveled so does that mean they were top commander leveled? Vice admiral isn't a solid tier.

Who said he needed help? Also he was outnumbered anyway. 

Also yes it does, this is anime. Does Squard look like a strategist to you? Also Mont D'Or is in charge while the people stronger than him are literally in the field, squard wasn't in the background drawing maps.

Also yeah, squard and the decalvan brothers at the very least could take down oars, not no difficulty but they would.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 18, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> *His heart attack was caused by the stress of fighting,and the Squardos stabb only had a minor role in that.*The point of that was to show that a)even the strongest guys can be suprised and hurt and b)WB is tge G for not doing anything to Squardo.
> *Actually,when Akainu vs WB happened,WB was filled with rage and adrenaline because of Ace and his strength was greater than usuall.*
> That would make no sense.If they wanted to hype him as this man amongst man and larger than life fighter,the whole point of him being nerfed a lot and having bad luck would just diminish that.
> *Shanks is probably the strongest one,based on story,hype and forshadowings.
> Kaido doesn't seem as someone young,so he was probably around for some time.*


Like the other person, you have a tendency to make things up and pretend they are fact, one piece doesn't change though no matter how much you make shit up.

1) Fan fiction, purely fan fiction

2) Fan fiction

3) Except that is just head canon, could end up being true but nothing points toward it but his relation to Luffy. Kaidou has however been directly stated to be the world's strongest creature.

5) Kaidou is hinted to be of Moriah/Crocodile's generation. We also have to remember that Capone is of luffy's generation despite the age gap.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 18, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> 1) You are overestimating the commanders. The admirals were a challenge for a Marco, he was not fighting equally. In the scene where Marco attacks Kizaru you can clearly see that Kizaru is not really bothered by Marcos attack. He talks shit to Marco saying something like "that hurt", while blocking his kick after which Marco replies with "Stop lying!" and kicks Kizaru away who transforms into his elements and regenerates. Marco can fight Kizaru but Kizaru is superior and Marcos knows his attack did not do shit to Kizaru. Not sure where the admiral level here is.
> 
> 2) Also Marco was not constanrly fighting admirals. A sneak attack on Aokiji, a counter attack on Kizaru is a proof he is admiral level? Not very convincing.
> 
> ...


1) Both Marco and Kizaru were incredibly lax until Marco started getting blindsided. 
Marco and Kizaru were clashing somewhat equally with marco in the lead.
Marco later clashed with Akainu fist to fist.

2 and 3) So let me get this straight? Your argument is that because Marco didn't instantly win, he's not equal to kizaru? Kizaru wasn't able to do anything to Marco despite multiple attacks and only blindsided/cheap shotted Marco, so your argument falls apart since it's hypocritical. So your power scale based on your logic is:
Admiral > Marco > Kizaru?
 It's just a bad argument, it took akainu 10 days to defeat aokiji yet you're going to shit on marco for not one hitting kizaru? Also lol at Marco being serious, both were literally saying the same sarcastic things back and forth, nor is there any evidence that Kizaru was not serious.

4) Aokiji used hax to freeze jozu internally so that no amount of strength would matter, he killed the cells pretty much. It doesn't matter if it was whitebeard or jozu, as long as there isn't something like a devil fruit counter to that specific technique like doflamingo with gamma knife, their arm is gone. Jozu and Aokiji had fought and attacked each other multiple times before then, aokiji was unable to get through jozu's diamond devil fruit, busoshoku (which he obviously specializes in), and physical stats.
 The only admiral who beat a commander were akainu defeating the bobbin of the crew who was paired up with pre skip moriah (curiel) and jozu being blindsided so meh. Marco also was only hit due to cheap bullshit.

5) Oh really? Haki they are well above the top commanders? 
Katakuri has the fucking best haki feats to date and he has haoshoku, show me some better kenbunshoku feats of the admirals over katakuri and better buso over cracker.
Admirals are fighting yonkou? When? Whitebeard literally was taken out by a group effort after a fucking string of health issues and a fucking heart attack and he still beat akainu.

6) What has any admiral done to marco outside of cheap hits? By that logic they are apparently weaker than him.
It's funny how you have to make up bullshit feats that never happened to try to justify your weak argument, yes I see how retarded that is, by that I mean your argument.

7) So let me get this straight, because marco didn't one hit an admiral, he's not admiral level, but when marco is only hit by blindsides, that doesn't discredit admirals at all? And when Whitebeard who was disgustingly nerfed still beat akainu, that didn't discredit admirals at all despite him being the strongest admiral? You're a fucking hypocrite who doesn't follow logic, you have an end argument and you make up things to justify it instead of looking at the evidence to make an informed opinion.

8) No they aren't, sorry but you're wrong (like always)

9) "Akainu proved that he can take it with all the wb pirates."
Really? I must have been reading something else besides your one piece fan fiction blog, I apologize because that never happened in the series of One Piece.

10) Based on admirals blind siding Marco, they are stronger than him? Didn't you say that marco is weaker than admiral level because he only landed blindsides? But wait? Didn't Marco push Kizaru without a blindside? Isn't that better than a blindside? Then why do blindsides mean that admirals are > marco?
Your argument is shit and hypocritical, give up.

11) The pre skip pre enies lobby monster trio fought Aokiji because they are confident and they were top tier.
Sorry but you're wrong, plenty of characters fight people out of their league. Jinbei faced Big Mom, marineford Luffy faced all 3 admirals at once, Crocodile pre skip faced Mihawk, etc etc. Also wouldn't by that logic Marco be admiral level anyway for facing with no fear an admiral? Of course not because you just want to downplay Marco and wank off the admirals, plus that argument you're using is shit anyway.
Jozu hit Aokiji with a blunt attack, all top tiers are tanks, if Aokiji flung a giant piece of ice at Jozu and it hit him blindside, he'd be fine, Aokiji defeated Jozu out of hax. It's no different than trying to claim Law is >>>>>>> Doflamingo because gamma knife would have taken him out if his devil fruit didn't allow him to stitch himself back together. Doflamingo couldn't move and was a sitting duck like jozu, but I don't imagine you'd claim Law is > Doflamingo, even if they are in the same wheelhouse. So why is Jozu shit for losing to a similar attack against Aokiji with a blindside.

A yonkou would apparently fall to a blindside king's punch apparently
A yonkou would drop to a blindside gamma knife (they would be unable to move)
Whitebeard would have suffered the same fate as Jozu with a blindside.
The Yeti Cool Brothers defeated Zoro with a blindside sleeping gas.

Do you consider King Elizabetho and Law stronger than yonkou, do you consider whitebeard weaker than yonkou and admirals cuz he'd lose to a blindside hax attack? Do you consider the yeti cool brothers stronger than zoro cuz they beat him in a similar situation?


----------



## Dunno (Mar 18, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> It's pretty obvious the title boxes are in-verse perceptions. Dunno is a troll and baiter though. Don't expect reality to change his views.


Are panels also only in-universe perception? Is there nothing in One Piece that we can say is true? How do you justify your view that Shanks and Whitebeard's clash actually split the clouds, and that the sky splitting wasn't only the in-universe perception? 

This panel where Luffy lost his arm invalidates any feat shown on panel as much as your panel of the introduction panel invalidates other introduction boxes:



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Again where is the proof of that? And how does that contradict what I said? You don't know if the narrator is introducing whitebeard with his title or actually just stating a fact. Whether you define that as a narrator's statement or not has no bearing.  It's like arguing if someone shows an introduction box for fujitora and said box calls him admiral that that wouldn't be his title just because it's coming from the narrator. Can't you see how fallacious that is?



It's as hard for me to prove that the text Oda writes is true as it is for you to prove that the panels Oda draws is true. The basic assumption would be that both parts of the manga are equally true, and that they are true until proven otherwise. Otherwise, we have nothing that we can consider a fact. The fact that Mihawk and Vista fought for example can only be considered a fact if we consider what goes on in the panels to be the actual events taking place, and not only in-universe perception. The fact that Whitebeard and Shanks split the sky can only be considered true if we assume that what Oda showed us is what actually happened, and not only an in-universe If we don't consider these things to be true, we end up in a Trumpian kind of discussion where it's considered intellectually fine to disregard any kind of happening in the manga, where you can choose what you want to consider to be true. If Oda introduces Fujitora as an Admiral, then we would know that Fujitora is an Admiral. It doesn't mean that Fujitora isn't considered in-universe to be an Admiral. Mihawk is obviously considered to be the WSS in-universe as well, but that's not what Oda wrote in the introduction box.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 18, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Are panels also only in-universe perception? Is there nothing in One Piece that we can say is true? How do you justify your view that Shanks and Whitebeard's clash actually split the clouds, and that the sky splitting wasn't only the in-universe perception?
> 
> This panel where Luffy lost his arm invalidates any feat shown on panel as much as your panel of the introduction panel invalidates other introduction boxes:
> 
> ...


That's.......... stupid.

Luffy was seeing the future with kenbunshoku like katakuri and he changed his action to avoid that, that is all. That has literally no relation to this:

Heck that isn't even a very impressive feat anyway, that's a jojo part 1 dio eye beam leveled feat really, albeit with the clash maybe more so.

But yeah, one would have happened if luffy hadn't been using kenbunshoku future sight unconsciously while one is literally an actual feat.

Sorry but your argument is bad and they are in verse titles. The panels he draw are drew unless conflicted with (like maybe a flashback), this is objective fact, it isn't comparable with fucking in verse titles, you're just trying to desperately make insults.
I mean every feat on panel that isn't a story being told is a true feat in some form, it's not real like real life, but it's canon to the manga/in verse characters. The titles are only in verse, and by that I don't mean they aren't the strongest in the real world, I mean that they aren't in the strongest by oda's words, those are just their titles they are known by in verse.

Your argument is just bad.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 18, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> That's.......... stupid.
> 
> Luffy was seeing the future with kenbunshoku like katakuri and he changed his action to avoid that, that is all. That has literally no relation to this:
> 
> ...



How can you actually justify your viewpoint? You write that the panels Oda draws are actual happenings in the manga, but that the words Oda writes are not, and you provide no justification for this at all. Why are pictures worth more than words? Do your rules change when reading novels without pictures? Otherwise, how does that work?

And you misunderstood my point regarding Luffy getting his hands cut off and Shanks and Whitebeard splitting the heavens. I don't claim that one panel of Luffy getting his hands cut off invalidates all other panels and all other feats in the manga. I leave those kinds of arguments for our good friend Seraphoenix. What I argue is the opposite, that one obvious false panel should regarded as such, but that panels in general should be regarded as true, and that the same applies to text.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 19, 2018)

Dunno said:


> How can you actually justify your viewpoint? You write that the panels Oda draws are actual happenings in the manga, but that the words Oda writes are not, and you provide no justification for this at all. Why are pictures worth more than words? Do your rules change when reading novels without pictures? Otherwise, how does that work?
> 
> And you misunderstood my point regarding Luffy getting his hands cut off and Shanks and Whitebeard splitting the heavens. I don't claim that one panel of Luffy getting his hands cut off invalidates all other panels and all other feats in the manga. I leave those kinds of arguments for our good friend Seraphoenix. What I argue is the opposite, that one obvious false panel should regarded as such, but that panels in general should be regarded as true, and that the same applies to text.


I don't even imagine you believe the words that you are saying.

The title cards are happening, they just are their in verse title and not oda directly telling us, it's the viewpoint of the people in the world based on the information they have.
Meanwhile if someone throws a punch that isn't in a story someone is telling that could have an unreliable narrator is objective fact.

In the end what you're claiming is lunacy.


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 19, 2018)

Dunno said:


> It's as hard for me to prove that the text Oda writes is true as it is for you to prove that the panels Oda draws is true. The basic assumption would be that both parts of the manga are equally true, and that they are true until proven otherwise. Otherwise, we have nothing that we can consider a fact. The fact that Mihawk and Vista fought for example can only be considered a fact if we consider what goes on in the panels to be the actual events taking place, and not only in-universe perception. The fact that Whitebeard and Shanks split the sky can only be considered true if we assume that what Oda showed us is what actually happened, and not only an in-universe If we don't consider these things to be true, we end up in a Trumpian kind of discussion where it's considered intellectually fine to disregard any kind of happening in the manga, where you can choose what you want to consider to be true. If Oda introduces Fujitora as an Admiral, then we would know that Fujitora is an Admiral. It doesn't mean that Fujitora isn't considered in-universe to be an Admiral. Mihawk is obviously considered to be the WSS in-universe as well, but that's not what Oda wrote in the introduction box.



Alright. Answer this For me. Lets assume in The newest chapter Mihawk appears and Zoro Challenges him For The title (and Wins later on). Mihawk gets an introduction Box that states wss again (For The people that might have forgotten lol). Now at that Point in time who IS The actual wss? Keep in Mind that i Said Zoro Wins this Battle shortly after The narration Box Has Been shown.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 19, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> I don't even imagine you believe the words that you are saying.
> 
> The title cards are happening, they just are their in verse title and not oda directly telling us, it's the viewpoint of the people in the world based on the information they have.
> Meanwhile if someone throws a punch that isn't in a story someone is telling that could have an unreliable narrator is objective fact.
> ...



Is it lunacy to consider the actual words of the third person narrator to be true?



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Alright. Answer this For me. Lets assume in The newest chapter Mihawk appears and Zoro Challenges him For The title (and Wins later on). Mihawk gets an introduction Box that states wss again (For The people that might have forgotten lol). Now at that Point in time who IS The actual wss? Keep in Mind that i Said Zoro Wins this Battle shortly after The narration Box Has Been shown.


It should be treated the same way we would treat a set of picture indicating the same. For example, Luffy's showings against Katakuri at the start of their fight should make us consider Luffy to be inferior to Katakuri at the time. It's only at the very end when Luffy can keep up with him and finally beat him that we can consider him to be superior to his opponent. In this particular case, we should consider Mihawk superior at the outset of the fight.


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 19, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Is it lunacy to consider the actual words of the third person narrator to be true?
> 
> 
> It should be treated the same way we would treat a set of picture indicating the same. For example, Luffy's showings against Katakuri at the start of their fight should make us consider Luffy to be inferior to Katakuri at the time. It's only at the very end when Luffy can keep up with him and finally beat him that we can consider him to be superior to his opponent. In this particular case, we should consider Mihawk superior at the outset of the fight.



No it shouldn't be treated the same. The reason being that Luffy wasn't stronger at the beginning of the fight/grew stronger and if he was we wouldn't know. This scenario is different. The narrator would have told us that mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman yet zoro would be stronger from the get-go. 

And no it is not lunacy to consider the words of the third person narrator as fact, you are simply missing the point. Which is that he does not always have to refer to an in-verse absolute truth. The burden of proof remains on you for that. The mihawk example illustrates my argument perfectly.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 19, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Kaido could be prime whitebeard's equal, or a little weaker
> 
> 
> This guy just jumped from sky island which is 10,000 meters above sea level and is having only a minor headache.
> ...


Kaidou has luck manipulation, probably tied to his devil fruit or just him being a freak of nature. It wasn't that the weapons broke on contact with him (though he's a tank no doubt), it's that the world pretty much bends to his will, a sword is swung at him and as it turns out, it's too worn out so the blade breaks in midair, that's the kind of thing that Kaidou has been hinted at having. It's actually a broken power, the main character of psycho busters has it and stuff like buildings fall down over his head onto enemies randomly and he's the only thing not hit in all the rubble collapsing. I wouldn't be surprised if when he jumped off the cloud, there was a sudden updraft of wind that slowed his descent or birds randomly got in his way to slow him down a bit.


----------



## Exping (Mar 19, 2018)

[/QUOTE]


shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Kaido could be prime whitebeard's equal, or a little weaker
> 
> 
> This guy just jumped from sky island which is 10,000 meters above sea level and is having only a minor headache.
> ...


woah, didn't you not agree with Marco > admirals? SO marco stopped kizaru from attacking whitebeard so u accept the fact that marco > Kizaru confirmed.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 19, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Is it lunacy to consider the actual words of the third person narrator to be true?
> 
> 
> It should be treated the same way we would treat a set of picture indicating the same. For example, Luffy's showings against Katakuri at the start of their fight should make us consider Luffy to be inferior to Katakuri at the time. It's only at the very end when Luffy can keep up with him and finally beat him that we can consider him to be superior to his opponent. In this particular case, we should consider Mihawk superior at the outset of the fight.


Holy shit, I'm talking to a wall.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 19, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No it shouldn't be treated the same. The reason being that Luffy wasn't stronger at the beginning of the fight/grew stronger and if he was we wouldn't know. This scenario is different. The narrator would have told us that mihawk is the world's strongest swordsman yet zoro would be stronger from the get-go.
> 
> And no it is not lunacy to consider the words of the third person narrator as fact, you are simply missing the point. Which is that he does not always have to refer to an in-verse absolute truth. The burden of proof remains on you for that. The mihawk example illustrates my argument perfectly.


So you mean that Oda would write that Mihawk is the WSS right before the final clash in the fight? Then it should be considered the same way a feat showing the same thing should be. If Oda showed us Mihawk besting Zoro in a straight up clash just prior to their final one, we would know that Mihawk at that point was still superior, and the same is true if Oda wrote it in text. 

The burden of proof is always on anyone making any argument. I argue that text should be considered to be equally true as pictures. If I've understood correctly, you argue that pictures should be considered true but that text shouldn't be. The burden of proof is equally yours as it is mine. 


PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Holy shit, I'm talking to a wall.


You are just talking nonsense. Why don't you tell me about how much stronger Cavendish is than Zoro and how Ichiji could beat Katakuri while we're at it?


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Mar 19, 2018)

Dunno said:


> So you mean that Oda would write that Mihawk is the WSS right before the final clash in the fight? Then it should be considered the same way a feat showing the same thing should be. If Oda showed us Mihawk besting Zoro in a straight up clash just prior to their final one, we would know that Mihawk at that point was still superior, and the same is true if Oda wrote it in text.
> 
> The burden of proof is always on anyone making any argument. I argue that text should be considered to be equally true as pictures. If I've understood correctly, you argue that pictures should be considered true but that text shouldn't be. The burden of proof is equally yours as it is mine.
> 
> You are just talking nonsense. Why don't you tell me about how much stronger Cavendish is than Zoro and how Ichiji could beat Katakuri while we're at it?


You are a shit poster and everyone seems to know it, I was just the last one to find out.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Mar 20, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You are a shit poster and everyone seems to know it, I was just the last one to find out.


Like I said he is a troll and don't expect reality to change his views.

He wanted to say that the title boxes are word of god, but when it was shown it was only in-verse perceptions, he tried to invalidate the whole manga. He isn't very sophisticated with his trolling given that he isn't particularly bright. If you refute what he says, he will ignore it and just repeat what he said like a bot.


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 20, 2018)

Dunno said:


> So you mean that Oda would write that Mihawk is the WSS right before the final clash in the fight? Then it should be considered the same way a feat showing the same thing should be. If Oda showed us Mihawk besting Zoro in a straight up clash just prior to their final one, we would know that Mihawk at that point was still superior, and the same is true if Oda wrote it in text.
> 
> The burden of proof is always on anyone making any argument. I argue that text should be considered to be equally true as pictures. If I've understood correctly, you argue that pictures should be considered true but that text shouldn't be. The burden of proof is equally yours as it is mine.
> 
> You are just talking nonsense. Why don't you tell me about how much stronger Cavendish is than Zoro and how Ichiji could beat Katakuri while we're at it?



Yes thats What i mean. So If You would still consider Mihawk as stronger in that hypothetical scenario how do You explain that He lost afterwards? Whats more how ist The title ever supposed To Switch owners If The narrative Box is word-of-god and declares one as The undisputed Number 1? Also Not only You have to keep all of those Things in Mind but also who is To say that The narration Boxes arent simply outdated? You ignore a Lot of Important factors.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 20, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> You are a shit poster and everyone seems to know it, I was just the last one to find out.


Now that was a bit rude. Let's not get all angry here. This is simply a friendly discussion on an internet forum after all.  


Seraphoenix said:


> Like I said he is a troll and don't expect reality to change his views.
> 
> He wanted to say that the title boxes are word of god, but when it was shown it was only in-verse perceptions, he tried to invalidate the whole manga. He isn't very sophisticated with his trolling given that he isn't particularly bright. If you refute what he says, he will ignore it and just repeat what he said like a bot.


Now this is just straight up lies. Can't we keep to the truth? 


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yes thats What i mean. So If You would still consider Mihawk as stronger in that hypothetical scenario how do You explain that He lost afterwards? Whats more how ist The title ever supposed To Switch owners If The narrative Box is word-of-god and declares one as The undisputed Number 1? Also Not only You have to keep all of those Things in Mind but also who is To say that The narration Boxes arent simply outdated? You ignore a Lot of Important factors.



It would be the exact same as the scenario of Luffy vs Katakuri or Luffy vs Lucci. He is weaker during most of the fight, but prevails in the end. I still consider mid-fight Katakuri stronger than mid-fight Luffy. The title switches when the in-universe opinion shifts, in this case when news of Zoro's victory spreads. Zoro would become the de facto WSS the moment he surpasses Mihawk though, which would in this case be right before the clash. The text could of course become outdated, as could pictures.

Reactions: Creative 1


----------



## DoctorLaw (Mar 20, 2018)

Kizaru is significantly stronger than Marco, simply because he's strong enough to give Akainu a high difficulty fight at the very least, and Akainu *walked through* Marco's attack.

Only this board can figure out someway to make disrespect like that seem like a strength for Marco?

Marco watched his father and brother die, and he charged forward with Vista at his side to strike a bloodlusted blow at Akainu.....simply for him to walk through it and call their attacks annoying. Akainu was all about killing future threats to the WG, and once he got rid of Ace and WB, he focused on Luffy.

Because Marco wasn't going to be a threat. I'd also like to point out this is the same Akainu that just took an asswhooping from WB. Marco has regen. So Marco was fresher, and had the element of surprise, and help. Still didn't do shit.

Kizaru shared the same title as that iteration of Akainu, and Aokiji, who lost extreme diff to Akainu. They were all on the same level. It makes no logical sense to conclude Marco is equal to Kizaru simply because he hit him once and then got shot.


----------



## DoctorLaw (Mar 20, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Both Marco and Kizaru were incredibly lax until Marco started getting blindsided.
> Marco and Kizaru were clashing somewhat equally with marco in the lead.
> Marco later clashed with Akainu fist to fist.
> 
> ...



If Aokiji's ice does that instant cell killing thing, no DF would stop it unless it's specifically healing. WB trembles to break out of the ice, implying its just a thick layer of ice, if it were internally freezing his insides, his DF wouldn't help at all. Neither would DD's, his strings manually fix something, that's why he was still being repaired during the fight. His strings were stiching his organs up, they can't stitch together a breakdown at the cellular level.

Second, where the hell is this "multiple times?" Jozu hit Aokiji, Aokiji froze his arm because WB had a heart attack and he got distracted. In the manga, they fight for a chapter, tops. Their fight also isn't shown, so we don't see Jozu bitch slapping Aokiji's attacks. I doubt Jozu has the speed anyway, Doflamingo was inches from Smoker's face and Aokiji froze him instantly. Aokiji froze WB mid attack from a distance. If Aokiji insta destroys cells when he freezes any part of your body, he should be able to deal with Jozu even easier. Why would you headcannon Aokiji's ability to an insane level and then try to argue he's equal with Jozu?

Aokiji fought Akainu for 10 days head to head. Akainu ignored Marco, and then pushed him out of the way when he kept popping up. How does Jozu, who's weaker than Marco, stand on equal ground with Aokiji? Surely you realize it makes no sense to equate Jozu to Aokiji.

Katakuri was an arc villain, he's shown all he's capable of and he's been beaten. The admirals still have more to show. Pointing out that he had more time to show his stuff isn't proof he's stronger. And better buso than Cracker? How about *Luffy who punched through his and Katakuri's haki with G4. *I don't understand why you make claims that are so easily disproved.


----------



## Quipchaque (Mar 20, 2018)

Dunno said:


> It would be the exact same as the scenario of Luffy vs Katakuri or Luffy vs Lucci. He is weaker during most of the fight, but prevails in the end. I still consider mid-fight Katakuri stronger than mid-fight Luffy. The title switches when the in-universe opinion shifts, in this case when news of Zoro's victory spreads. Zoro would become the de facto WSS the moment he surpasses Mihawk though, which would in this case be right before the clash. The text could of course become outdated, as could pictures.



No It Cant be The exact Same because as i Said we are arguing What Happens If Zoro does Not grow Stronger mid-battle but reached His peak let's Say a Week before this battle. According To You since The narration Box is Always undeniable Truth Zoro Cant win The title now unless You admit It Is merely a Reference To The title instead. Thats The whole Point, who Is To say The Same doesnt apply To whitebeard as He himself explained? At least You admit that The narration Statements could be outdated which means Your conclusion about whitebeards Ranking at Marineford should be The Same as ours by now.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Mar 21, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> I can maybe see Akainu reaching old Garp level thanks to the timeskip and his promotion thrusting him into more power to contrast chinjao losing it after his luffy defeat.
> 
> Garp wasn't trying to hurt Marco really, just stop him from Ace, he was the most conflicted character at marineford, he even hesitated to punch Marco, not that it matters, Marco was arguably hurt more from that punch than multiple blindsides by kizaru.
> 
> ...



People overrate garp way too much based on just a few things.

Also garp is not pirate king level.

The part of Roger stating that they almost killed each other several times is a mistranslation.

The real translation is " we have fought each other for years"


----------



## Gohara (Mar 21, 2018)

"It makes no logical sense to conclude Marco is equal to Kizaru simply because he hit him once and then got shot."

If one clash isn't enough to suggest that Marco is => an Admiral then why would one clash be enough to suggest that Pre Time Skip Akainu is > Marco?  The difference is that Akainu has only tanked a technique from 1 Yonkou First Mate.  Whereas top Yonkou Commander level characters have had even Kizaru vs. Marco like confrontations consistently throughout the series so far.  And so far Lord Katakuri's offense is significantly more impressive than Marco's.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Dunno (Mar 22, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No It Cant be The exact Same because as i Said we are arguing What Happens If Zoro does Not grow Stronger mid-battle but reached His peak let's Say a Week before this battle. According To You since The narration Box is Always undeniable Truth Zoro Cant win The title now unless You admit It Is merely a Reference To The title instead. Thats The whole Point, who Is To say The Same doesnt apply To whitebeard as He himself explained? At least You admit that The narration Statements could be outdated which means Your conclusion about whitebeards Ranking at Marineford should be The Same as ours by now.


Unless Oda specifically stated that Zoro didn't grow stronger during the battle, we would be able to deduct from the fact that Mihawk was the WSS before the fight, and that Zoro won the fight that Zoro grew stronger during the fight. It is no different from if Oda showed us that Mihawk was clearly stronger at the beginning and Zoro then ended up winning. And no, Zoro can't win his fight against Mihawk if he is weaker when the fight starts and doesn't get stronger during it. In that case he would lose. Whitebeard could theoretically have grown weaker in the short time between his introduction and MF, but it's very unlikely. What we know is that he was stronger than everyone else at the moment of his introduction, so unless we get any indication that that has changed, there is no reason to believe that it has.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 23, 2018)

Holy fuck,

I know I said I wouldn't bang myself against the wall but I will do it one last time. How the heck does someone not understand the difference between an actual feat vs a title box?

Shanks vs Whitebeard splitting the sky is an actual on panel feat and it's an action. Something quantifiable. Something that can be observed. There's nothing vague about that. It's an empirical piece of evidence. And so we can factually claim a clash between Whitebeard and Shanks can split the sky.

Vs. A title box.

That's a completely different thing. It's an ambiguous statement and neither is it an action. It's not quantifiable. It cannot be observed. It's not empirical evidence. In fact we need corroborative evidence or reasoning to prove that statement. The statement itself is not evidence and can be scrutinized.

Sure both of those things are in the manga but both of those things aren't the same or hold the same weight. It's an apple vs orange situation. And regardless, It's factually proven in the manga that Whitebeard no longer could match up to that title. We have empirical evidence for it. The character the title box was for, admitted he can't remain the strongest forever after being stabbed. And his closest crewmate shared the same sentiment by realizing Whitebeard isn't his former self.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 23, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> It's not empirical evidence


 the title box is empirical.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 23, 2018)

No, no its not. Unless you are saying the box itself can be viewed then sure. But not the statement in the box. A statement is not empirical evidence. If I make the statement "Shanks is the strongest", there has to be reasoning and other forms of evidence behind it. So the burden of proof doesn't fall into my lap, but the mangas and it falls on the person using that statement.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 23, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> Holy fuck,
> 
> I know I said I wouldn't bang myself against the wall but I will do it one last time. How the heck does someone not understand the difference between an actual feat vs a title box?
> 
> ...


Why do you believe this to be the case? What makes pictures more truthful than text? Is this applicable in all media containing both text and pictures or just manga? How does this work when you are reading a book without pictures?

Furthermore, I think you are confused regarding the concept of ambiguity. Most feats are ambiguous, since they can be interpreted so differently. For example, you could place a larger emphasis on the symbolic meaning between being able to split the sky, instead of the actual energy of their attacks needed to do so. Another example is that the Energy needed to launch Wadatsumi into the air and set him on fire is greater than the energy needed to launch Doflamingo across Dressrosa, so if you use that metric, that feat ends up looking more impressive than Luffy's G4 punches, which most people don't agree with. What is not ambiguous is that those feats happened.

Regarding clear text statements, there is also no ambiguity. If the narrator states "x is y", then x is y. There is no possible other interpretation possible, and thus no ambiguity. There is of course ambiguity concerning who fits into which categories (men, creatures swordsmen, etc.) but not in the truth of the statements.

We have no empirical evidence that Whitebeard wasn't the WSM at MF. In fact, it is ludicrous to propose that we do. The ambiguous nature of pictures, or what is usually referred to as "feats", makes it pretty much impossible to determining how powerful a certain character in any detail, except in direct confrontations with the character we are comparing them to. There is no way you can actually claim that we have unambiguous empirical evidence that Whitebeard was not the WSM at MF, and no way that you can claim that we don't have unambiguous empirical evidence that Whitebeard was the WSM when he was introduced.



TheOnlyOne1 said:


> No, no its not. Unless you are saying the box itself can be viewed then sure. But not the statement in the box. A statement is not empirical evidence. If I make the statement "Shanks is the strongest", there has to be reasoning and other forms of evidence behind it. So the burden of proof doesn't fall into my lap, but the mangas and it falls on the person using that statement.


The narrator doesn't need proof. The narrator's statements are proof, as much as the narrator's pictures are proof.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 23, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> No, no its not. Unless you are saying the box itself can be viewed then sure. But not the statement in the box. A statement is not empirical evidence. If I make the statement "Shanks is the strongest", there has to be reasoning and other forms of evidence behind it. So the burden of proof doesn't fall into my lap, but the mangas and it falls on the person using that statement.


yes if YOU were to make that statement it is not empirical but the statement is being given to us directly from the author. it exists as a piece of data from the story.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 23, 2018)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> yes if YOU were to make that statement it is not empirical but the statement is being given to us directly from the author. it exists as a piece of data from the story.



No it's not given directly by the author. You are assuming the author is telling you this. It' your assumption.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 23, 2018)

TheOnlyOne1 said:


> No it's not given directly by the author. You are assuming the author is telling you this. It' your assumption.


 who other than the author is relaying that info? the title box is only observable by the reader so no character is presenting it. regardless this doesn't relate to your argument that it is not empirical evidence.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Mar 23, 2018)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> who other than the author is relaying that info? the title box is only observable by the reader so no character is presenting it. regardless this doesn't relate to your argument that it is not empirical evidence.



The narrator is writing a story. From the stories perspective. The narrator is not telling you personally who he believes is the strongest or anything. That's not what empirical evidence is. The title box is a statement. That's not evidence. I don't think you understand what evidence means. Seeing the statement doesn't make it observable. Seeing the statement means we know the statement is being made. After the statement is made, then evidence needs to be provided. The manga then goes onto prove that title box is no longer applicable. And that's factual. It' not up for debate. And has nothing to do with my opinion or yours. Whitebeard stated he can't be the strongest and his closest commander backed up that statement.


----------



## TheWiggian (Mar 26, 2018)

Wait do people really believe the panels and text written in One Piece is coming from someone else, not Oda himself? And that not being enough they demand proof for what he is writing in his own manga?


----------



## Pirateer (Mar 31, 2018)

Going by feats, akainu MIGHT be able to solo them. He casually defeated marco who was barely able to hold him off for a few moments, jozu would be a little weaker than marco and not a major threat either. Cracker would be pretty much worthless, all his biscuits would be melted by the magma and his haki is probably comparable to the other yonko commanders, which means that akainu can casually walk through the commanders' attacks like he did with marco and vista. That leaves katakuri who, in combination with the other commanders, could bring it to an extreme diff win for akainu. If we're going by hype and power scaling then the commanders should be able to high diff akainu, add in any other admiral to akainu's team and it becomes a mid-diff casual battle for the admirals.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 4, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> "had to"
> You mean after WB got stabbed by squard, had a heart attack, akainu got a free shot where he pumped lava into whitebeard's heart, got ganked by like 10 vice admirals who were armed with bazookas, swords, guns, etc etc. That WB? Also I think he was hit by a kizaru laser as well.
> 
> Nope, WB in old age was well above the admirals and he dropped akainu in 2 hits.
> ...



Again, Whitebeard sneak attacked Akainu. If you want to count sneak attacks as a valid feat, then we'd have to count the Yeti Cool Brothers knocking out Zoro in one blow as a valid feat, which is ridiculous. When Akainu and Whitebeard squared off with no distractions, neither of them were pushing past the other.



whitebeard could not lay a single finger on any admiral until he sneak attack them.

whitebeard's quakes did'nt do a shit to akainu except make him bleed a little.

lets take a look at the damage whitebeard did to akainu:
1)a quake to head,akainu bleed only a little,his skull is not cracked
2)takes an island splitting quake,old whitebeard didnt even break a single bone,and akainu's organs are intact overall.

whitebeard's quakes only made akainu bleed a little and was overall fine
whereas akainu's magma roasted whitebeard's organs and melted  his skull which did arguably more damage

lets take a look at what damage akainu did to whitebeard:
1)pumped lava into his chest and roasted his organs
2)takes a full raged sneak attack by whitebeard,retailiated by melting half of whitebeard's skull,and roasting his brain.

whitebeard's quakes didnt do any permanent or serious damage to akainu,while akainu did arguably more damage to whitebeard than whitebeard did to akainu.

whitebeard cheap shotted akainu and could not even permanently damage or scar akainu,while akainu melted half his face and roasted his organs and permanently damaged whitebeard.

whitebeard's gura gura no mi is said to have power to destroy the world but it could not even do any permanent damage and serious damage to admirals and could not even break akainu's bones,it only made akainu bleed a little that's it

while akainu's magu magu no mi roasted whitebeard's organ and melted his skull and roasted half his brain.

sorry but whitebeard was below admirals and could not even properly hit the admirals until a sneak attack,and he still could not even permanently damage or scar an admiral.


----------



## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Apr 4, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Again, Whitebeard sneak attacked Akainu. If you want to count sneak attacks as a valid feat, then we'd have to count the Yeti Cool Brothers knocking out Zoro in one blow as a valid feat, which is ridiculous. When Akainu and Whitebeard squared off with no distractions, neither of them were pushing past the other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Blindsides don't count, but akainu already pretty much did it to whitebeard already before then.
Whitebeard was hit by squard
suffered a heart attack
mid heart attack Akainu hit Whitebeard when he physically couldn't move and pumped lava into his chest.

Regarding the yeti cool brothers, they beat zoro with hax, just like aokiji did with jozu. Blindsides don't count but the point being that whitebeard's was valid since he was hit by one previously and it wasn't hax based but damage based.

No admiral hit whitebeard till the heart attack and he treated them like weaklings prior to that "candle" and stuff were what he called them.

2 quake punches defeated akainu, he was on the ground completely prone and unable to stand up, he got up minutes later but the fight was over the moment the second hit landed and whitebeard was the victor.

Whitebeard's regular quakes aren't island busting, and akainu was dropped after 2, him coming back after minutes of rest is irrelevant, he was on the ground, face first and unable to stand up.

Akainu's attacks only did damage to whitebeard cuz of the hax of lava melting, he didn't destroy whitebeard with raw strength like whitebeard did with akainu.

Post heart attack whitebeard beat akainu, sorry but you're a fool.


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Apr 4, 2018)

"How can the Admirals injure Marco with a fruit like that"? Is that supposed to be an argument? That fruit is Marco's. Until Marco stops using that fruits ability, that's Marco's ability and we take that into account. Same with every devils fruit ability user.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 5, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Blindsides don't count, but akainu already pretty much did it to whitebeard already before then.
> Whitebeard was hit by squard
> suffered a heart attack
> mid heart attack Akainu hit Whitebeard when he physically couldn't move and pumped lava into his chest.
> ...



*2 quake punches defeated akainu, he was on the ground completely prone and unable to stand up, he got up minutes later but the fight was over the moment the second hit landed and whitebeard was the victor.
*
First one was a cheap shot

Witebeard's quakes only made akainu bleed a little an was paralyzed for a short period of time.

Akainu arguably did far more damage to whitebeard than what whitebeard did to akainu.akainu clearly won the fight.

If whitebeard's quakes are strong enough to split islands then why couldn't his quakes break akainu's bones?akainu was still fine and came out unscathed

Akainu was manhandling Whitebeard before he removed him from the field. He was digging from the lower crusts and attempting not to destroy the rest of the base by not recklessly exploding everything on his path.

 Akainu totally owned him in both sides of thewar, behind the lines and physical combat. Now, tell me which part of Akainu's physicality was damaged when Whitebeard "finished" him off? None. Whitebeard can't.


Damage done by akainu on whitebeard:
Roasted his organs and melted half his skull and brain

Damage done by whitebeard to akainu:
A sneak attack and akainu bled a little and was fine,while whitebeard didn't break a single bone,an island splitter and whitebeard could not break akainu's bones.

Whitebeard's qaukes are too weak,they could not even break a single bone hahahah

*No admiral hit whitebeard till the heart attack *
By this same measure, the only reason Whitebeard even landed a significant blow on Akainu was because of a sneak attack.

*he treated them like weaklings prior to that "candle" and stuff were what he called them.*

You mean how Akainu was also dryly joking and keeping Whitebeard at bay? Prior to the heart attack, both of them were being kept at bay. Whitebeard wasn't fighting seriously, and neither was Akainu, so that measure isn't exactly valid when both characters are just being casual.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 6, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Except that Garp being stronger than Akainu.
> Garp is a whitebeard rival and he wasn't held back by a horrible sickness like Whitebeard was even before all the in marineford nerfs Whitebeard got before still beating Akainu.
> 
> Marco beats Akainu after a multi hour or day fight.



garp is a scrub,he bleed profusely from the head after a 50 foot fall,the admirals would shit on garp easily.
and garp is not pirate king level,the part of roger and garp almost killing each other is a mistranslation.
the real translation is :We have fought each other for years

also the whitebeard that "defeated" akainu (not really) was full of adrenaline and rage,and despite akainu getting cheap shotted,he owned whitebeard within 1 second by melting half his brain.

whitebeard could not even break a single bone of akainu hahah inspite of cheap shotting him.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 6, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 1) Unnamed attack
> 2) Akainu failed to defeat Aokiji for 10 days, meaning Admiral > Akainu > Aokiji, right?
> 3) Akainu: "ugh", physically shaking in pain in the above panel, and complaining about the pain.
> 
> Try again.



Evidence that akainu wasnt hurt at all:
1)he didnt have scars
2)he didnt bleed
3)he didnt take long to reform his body
4)he could maintain his intangibility,marco's and vista's haki is weak they could not even bypass akainu's intangibilty

it finally took whitebeard's own powerful haki to finaly injure akainu.
there is no evidence to say that he was physically shaking in pain,you are just over exagerating


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 6, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> People here believe that Akainu can solo the entire whitebeard commanders.



i dont know what manga you have been reading the whole time but akainu DOES take on all commanders by himself


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 6, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco > Admiral = Jozu > Thatch > Vista > Ace
> Ace can hang with an admiral but of course loses.
> 
> Vista and Ace together can probably beat an admiral with mid diff.



on what basis are you saying that thatch is a top commander and stronger than vista?if you are going to use the number of division as an arguement then you are wrong,oda stated in an SBS that the number of divisions does not indicate the strength of the commander.

THere is no way ace and vista can mid difficulty the admirals.
akainu fodderized ace ,and vista could not even injure akainu


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 6, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Whitebeard had 5 before Thatch died.
> 4 after Ace died
> WB commanders means wb crew so I won't remove Marco just cuz he's the captain now.
> 
> ...



marco stoped a magma attack aimedat luffy,obviously he was going to have an easy time blocking akainu's attack and also he has that conveinient ability to regenerate from any injury he suffers.

jozu got stopped by parasite lol,he is not a top tier he is weaker than luffy.
luffy managed to breat  out of parasite while jozu failed miserably.
mihawk was looking at luffy and was not even paying attention to vista and was playing around with him.

big mom's whole crew is a group of scrubs,they have been embarassing so far.
they have got thier whole crew trashed by half a straw hats,campone bege pedro jinbei carrot etc.
they have beaten up and abused her subordinates,eaten her wedding cake,destroyed her cherished tea party,stolen a copy of her poneglyh etc etc,this has been an abysmal display of big mom and her whole crew.

kaido's right hand man,jack got his ass handed to him by fujitora,and well if he didnt have plot armour fujtora would have easily slaughtered him.

fujitora would have gravity  crushed jack and the ship would not be able to handle the gravity crush and their  ship would have sunken right there,but well jack was lucky that he had  plot armour.

it  is the same with blackbeard's crew,blackbeard couldn't do anything more than simply ally himself with kuzan.

and we all  know that they actively hunt for very powerful devil fruit users,YET they have not even tried to even touch kuzan and can only whisper about how they cant touch him,ecause he is  too strong

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 6, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> There is no indication that an admiral can beat him without Marco being distracted or another character putting seastone handcuffs on him (and kizaru STILL didn't win)
> 
> The only feat we have is Marco overpowering Kizaru's defense and clashing equally with akainu.
> 
> ...



marco just had plot armour.when he has handcuffed,kizaru could have simply cut off his head by his light saber or could have shot countless of beams at marco and he would have died right there,but he didn't.just admit it,whitebeard had a lot of plot armour and they still lost the war miserably


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 11, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> You love making up fanfics huh? You think if you throw in enough stream of consciousness garbage it will somehow change the manga?
> '*'fujitora was not even being serious against luffy*.''
> 
> Fujitora disagrees with you big boy:
> ...



this fight shouldn’t have any bearing on how Fujitora is ranked. He visibly struggles with himself to fight Luffy, he acts reluctant, and he doesn’t use half the moves he did on others.

The fact he was planning to execute Luffy at that point means nothing. Obviously, he had no reason take out Luffy there, considering that Fujitora was confident he could take him out when he took out the entire fleet, which is arguably why he used gravity to send him away towards the fleet.

The alternative (suggested by the Fujitora detractors) is that Fuji was having trouble with an injured G2/3 Luffy, which is completely ludicrous (not only because other characters far weaker than Fujitora have been able to handle G2/3, but because this supposedly untroubled Admiral wasn't even using abilities and haki to help himself...)

since you support your arguements  based on dialogues here is one of the dialogues said by fujitora himself

Fujitora:_ (In truth, I have no right to go after you...) // ......I’d appreciate it if you’d keep this between us, but... / For tidying up this mess where the Government failed... // You all have... // ...my most sincere thanks!!! // ......_

he gave Luffy three days to recover after his fight with Doflamingo.he was spending most of his time gambling and fooling around.

 Fujitora himself said that his intent was to have someone else save Dressrosa, and to get rid of shichibukai. He allows Luffy to fight Doflamingo, and he lets Luffy recover. While that happens, he has to convince himself to even go after Luffy. He then fights him halfheartedly. Fujitora gets serious at the end when he says he's going to take Luffy down, and there's conviction behind his words. As soon as that happens, he sends Luffy out, and plans the rubble drop. He had Luffy dead to rights when he got serious. So, from you, big difference when a character says something is going to happen and it doesn't happen:

"I'm going to arrest Luffy for real lol"

_Goes to arrest Luffy, doesn't arrest him because he still is hesitant. (when the g3 punch happens)_

And a character telling us a reason for their actions and the effort:

"You look down on me for being blind, now I'll send you to hell" (an actual attack from Fujitora)

_Effortlessly tosses Luffy._

Further, Tashigi and Smoker are thankful for what Fujitora did, "paying the SHs back" for what he did. They knew he could've saved the day, or taken credit for it, but Fujitora didn't. Do you need to be spoonfed why Fujitora didn't use nearly all of his power at all?

there are so many other instance which show that fujitora was not serious against luffy
He doesn't crush Luffy & the fleet with his rubble when they were on the pier because the citizens intervened, correct. But once they boarded the Yonta Maria & were sailing away it wouldn't have been issue and they were still within his range & fair game. Instead Fujitora chose to target the enemy pirates that came to attack the YM, calling it a "parting gift" to Luffy:



And scattering the remnants _around _the fleet but deliberately avoiding a direct hit (demonstrating the level of control he had) much to the surprise of Bastille.


Essentially he could have _still _destroyed the fleet with his rubble but chose not to, because after the citizen intervention (and through reading their true inner thoughts) he once again realised that he was correct with his first intuition about Luffy: a hero of DR that didn't deserve to be brought to justice through his hands. The guy is fucking smiling and giving Luffy his thanks there.


 Fujitora was never really completely committed or serious about taking out Luffy or the fleet.

Fujitora is a _good _person who has a fair and moral sense of justice and he recognised Luffy as a hero of DR that the marines had no right to apprehend after it was _them_ the WG/Marines that had allowed Doflamingo to terrorise the island in the first place (see the dialogue in his conversation with Sakazuki).

He gave three days for Luffy to recover, kept calling him a hero and even candidly telling Luffy that he was in an awkward position - these are NOT the actions & words of a man who's at all committed to killing Luffy.

Fujitora himself stated to riku that he let the straw hats defeat doflamingo


----------



## Quipchaque (Apr 11, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> i dont know what manga you have been reading the whole time but akainu DOES take on all commanders by himself



People always act like this feat would be such a big deal but it's grossly overestimated because the only ones in that group who can even put up a fight against akainu are Marco and vista. Literally everyone else would be a non-factor so it's not as impressive as its made out to be. Sure holding your own against these 2 at once is still amazing but akainu is potentially the 2.strongest chara currently so it's something you can expect from him.


----------



## Extravlad (Apr 12, 2018)

Commanders aren't shit and It's come to accept it.

Nothing short of 2 first mate together could threaten an Admiral/Yonko level fighter and if the fighters in question are Luffy/Katakuri vs Akainu I'm betting on Akainu every day of the week.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kai (Apr 13, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> Commanders aren't shit and It's come to accept it.
> 
> Nothing short of 2 first mate together could threaten an Admiral/Yonko level fighter and if the fighters in question are Luffy/Katakuri vs Akainu I'm betting on Akainu every day of the week.


Well do you think Sabo will soon be able to handle a serious Admiral if not already?


----------



## Quipchaque (Apr 14, 2018)

Kai said:


> Well do you think Sabo will soon be able to handle a serious Admiral if not already?



Or Shiryu.


----------



## Extravlad (Apr 14, 2018)

Kai said:


> Well do you think Sabo will soon be able to handle a serious Admiral if not already?


Sabo isn't beating an Admiral til EoS.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (May 1, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Consider? He objectively lost.
> 
> Also you're just proving my point, I'm not claiming that Yeti Cool Brothers > Zoro, I'm claiming that blindside is exceptionally dangerous for characters, especially when hax is involved. Doflamingo would have lost against Law outright if he couldn't stitch his internals together, that would imply Law could one hit Whitebeard with a free hit.
> 
> ...




*Also you're just proving my point, I'm not claiming that Yeti Cool Brothers > Zoro, I'm claiming that blindside is exceptionally dangerous for characters, especially when hax is involved. Doflamingo would have lost against Law outright if he couldn't stitch his internals together, that would imply Law could one hit Whitebeard with a free hit.

Marco was only ever hurt by blind sides and was never defeated by it.*

by that same logic we can say that akainu was hurt only because of blinsides and was never defeated.

when kizaru blindsides marco,you state that blinsides  are exceptionally dangerous for characters,bu when whitebeard cheap shots akainu then you are fine by that? you are a hypocrite.that the only reason why whitebeard even managed to even land a hit on akainu was when he blinsided him when akainu was facing marco.whitebeard didnt 2 hit akainu.

whitebeard cheap shotted akainu and still lost the fight.deal with it,admirals were all superior to whitebeard at marineford

whitebeard's quakes ARE WEAK,he could not even break a single bone of akainu and could not even damage akainu's organs,he got back up and kept on fighting like nothing ever happened.akainu got right back up and didnt suffer any serious injuries.his quakes did noting to akainu.

Even Blackbeard took a point blank earthquake and was perfectly fine,he could not even break a bone or cause any internal organ damage

whereas akainu's attacks destroyed half of whitebeard's skull and roasted his organs.akainu did 80% of the damage to whitebeard easily.

whiteebard at the most did 20% damage to akainu,kaido(the strongest  creature) would have dealt more damage to akainu

*Mihawk = Vista*

mihawk was looking at luffy while fighting vista and was fooling around the whole time.mihawk is yonko level and had legendary duels with shanks.

the fact that thier duels were described as legendary alone proves that both were yonko levels.

*Akainu and Marco clashed equally*
marco intercepted an attacked aimed at luffy,of course he was going to stop that attack easily.

it's like saying crocodile clashed equally against mihawk since crocodile intercepted a slash aimed at luffy.

zoro clashed equally against aokiji because he intercepted a slash aimed at robin

your logic is trash


----------



## Raiden34 (May 1, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> *Commanders aren't shit and It's come to accept it.*
> 
> Nothing short of 2 first mate together could threaten an Admiral/Yonko level fighter and if the fighters in question are Luffy/Katakuri vs Akainu I'm betting on Akainu every day of the week.


Which is why when you beat them you're becoming a Yonko right?

Blackbeard beats Marco, they announced him as Whitebeard's replacement in Yonko.
Luffy beats Cracker and then Katakuri, they announced him as the fifth Yonko.


----------



## Blacku (May 1, 2018)

Admirals rival Yonkos don't compare them to henchmen.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Extravlad (May 1, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Blackbeard beats Marco, they announced him as Whitebeard's replacement in Yonko.
> Luffy beats Cracker and then Katakuri, they announced him as the fifth Yonko.


Blackbeard obliterated Marco and the remnants of the WB pirates to become an actual Yonko.
Luffy "defeated" Bigmom to be labelled as one by a pathological liar who writes fake news for a living.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (May 2, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> There is no indication that an admiral can beat him without Marco being distracted or another character putting seastone handcuffs on him (and kizaru STILL didn't win)
> 
> The only feat we have is Marco overpowering Kizaru's defense and clashing equally with akainu.
> 
> ...



by that same logic there is no indication that whitebeard can defeat the admirals considering the fact that the only time where he managed to  even injure any of the admirals is because of a sneak attack when akainu is facing marco.

marco stopped an attack of akainu aimed at luffy obviously he was going to have an  easy time stoppping akainu's attacks.

whitebeard's quakes are WEAK,they could not even break a single bone of akainu and he could not even cause any internal organ damage,even blackbeard took a point blank earthquake to the head he was perfectly fine.

akainu's magma fists roasted whitebeard's organ and melted half his skull and destroyed his brain.

ADmirals > Old Sick Whitebeard 

Deal With It


----------



## Gledania (May 4, 2018)

Aka inu and marco are the same ? Yeah . That's why black beard and his crew ran away when aka came to them ....


----------



## Dunno (May 4, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> Blackbeard obliterated Marco and the remnants of the WB pirates to become an actual Yonko.
> Luffy "defeated" Bigmom to be labelled as one by a pathological liar who writes fake news for a living.


How do we know that the obliteration part wasn't Morgan's sensationalism as well though? After all, it's not like Jinbei watched the battle himself.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 10, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco having the edge over Kizaru until bullshit happened.
> 1) Turning around to worry about Whitebeard
> 2) Being double teamed where the second person slipped on seastone
> 
> ...



just because marco kicked back kizaru does not mean  he was winning against kizaru.
by that logic,even jinbei was beating big mom because he sent her flying.
zoro too was winning against fujitora because he pushed him back
luffy was also winning against aokiji because he kicked him high up into the air.

your logic is stupid.

jozu could not even break out of parasite,so he is not even close to aokiji's level

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jun 10, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> just because marco kicked back kizaru does not mean  he was winning against kizaru.
> by that logic,even jinbei was beating big mom because he sent her flying.
> zoro too was winning against fujitora because he pushed him back
> luffy was also winning against aokiji because he kicked him high up into the air.
> ...



It is pretty damning for Jozu’s feats, especially since a pre Kata/Cracker fight and exhausted G4 Luffy broke out of parasite through brute strength.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 10, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> just because marco kicked back kizaru does not mean  he was winning against kizaru.
> by that logic,even jinbei was beating big mom because he sent her flying.
> zoro too was winning against fujitora because he pushed him back
> luffy was also winning against aokiji because he kicked him high up into the air.
> ...


Jinbe was running away from BM.
Zoro was helpless against Fujitora and only saved his own butt, failed to do anything about Law.
Aokiji defeated Luffy shortly after.
Marco kicked Kizaru and said stay down son, Kizaru didn't do anything until he cheap-shotted him from behind when Marco was distracted.

Jozu and Luffy are different cases, Luffy can stretch due to rubber, Jozu can't. Jozu has different advantages such as he showed against Mihawk's strongest slash.


----------



## Gledania (Jun 10, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Mihawk's strongest slash.



For the love of everything holy , I don't care about what your talking about, but could you stop with the "strongest slash" argument ? Did oda said it's the stongest ? Did mihawk ? Did he use his sword with two hand or one ? 



> Marco is at worst equal to the admirals and at best equal to akainu



Yeah the guy is akainu inu level and lost an *overwhelming deafeat* with jozu being amiral level and vista mihawk level .... knowing that akainu could have conquered the one piece in one year.

So right now luffy may win against aka inu too since in won against a youko firstmate. 

....


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 11, 2018)

Gledania said:


> For the love of everything holy , I don't care about what your talking about, but could you stop with the "strongest slash" argument ? Did oda said it's the stongest ? Did mihawk ? Did he use his sword with two hand or one ?


So you're so certain that Shanks has nothing but sword skills, but when I say it was Mihawk's strongest slash you're arguing and questioning it?



*''The World's Strongest Slash''*

I can't imagine what would you do if someone says in the manga _''Shanks is nothing but a swordsman.''_ , you would accept that statement and you wouldn't even argue about it.

This is his strongest slash because ;

A-) You can't see him using one-hand on the manga.
B-) Mihawk never named his attacks so far, why do you think he should've there?
C-) Manga specifically said that it was the strongest slash.
D-) Mihawk sent this attack to WSM Whitebeard. It was meant to be his best attack, just like Kizaru's Yasakani no Magatama. Did you see a better attack from Kizaru yet? He used his best against WSM Whitebeard.


----------



## Gledania (Jun 11, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> A-) You can't see him using one-hand on the manga.
> B-) Mihawk never named his attacks so far, why do you think he should've there?
> C-) Manga specifically said that it was the strongest slash.
> D-) Mihawk sent this attack to WSM Whitebeard. It was meant to be his best attack, just like Kizaru's Yasakani no Magatama. Did you see a better attack from Kizaru yet? He used his best against WSM Whitebeard.



A) I said we don't know if he used the two or not.
B) not my saying. I agree here with you
C ) *People* said it was the world strongest slash. Whether it was or not is up to mihawk. Das bones blocked one of his slash.you know what followed.
D) You don't specifily need to use your most powerfull attack to know how strong is a person.


Erkan12 said:


> I can't imagine what would you do if someone says in the manga _''Shanks is nothing but a swordsman.''_ , you would accept that statement and you wouldn't even argue about it


Rayleigh ? Yassop ? Yeah. A random marine ? No.



Erkan12 said:


> So you're so certain that Shanks has nothing but sword skills


As I said in the oher thread , what kind of skill may he use other than swordmanship that will change anything ?


(let's talk there it will be more easy)


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 11, 2018)

Gledania said:


> A) I said we don't know if he used the two or not.
> B) not my saying. I agree here with you
> C ) *People* said it was the world strongest slash. Whether it was or not is up to mihawk. Das bones blocked one of his slash.you know what followed.
> D) You don't specifily need to use your most powerfull attack to know how strong is a person.
> ...



Just show whoever you are talking to this link... This one

It clearly says world's greatest strike which implies that they are merely referring to the fact its coming from the wgs. Also if this was indeed the world's strongest slash then that means Mihawk is the physically strongest swordsman.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Dunno (Jun 11, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> So you're so certain that Shanks has nothing but sword skills, but when I say it was Mihawk's strongest slash you're arguing and questioning it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you doubt that Pica could handle everyone on Dressrosa himself? Or do you think that he's way stronger than Admiral level?


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Do you doubt that Pica could handle everyone on Dressrosa himself? Or do you think that he's way stronger than Admiral level?


We've seen that Pica couldn't handle everyone on Dressrosa.

What's your evidence towards that if it isn't the Mihawk's strongest slash?


----------



## Dunno (Jun 11, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> We've seen that Pica couldn't handle everyone on Dressrosa.
> 
> What's your evidence towards that if it isn't the Mihawk's strongest slash?


We've seen him use a stronger slash. We've seen that every swordsman has stronger melee attacks than ranged attacks. We saw that Mihawk's stance was very casual when he performed the slash. There's nothing at all indicating that it was his strongest slash.


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 11, 2018)

Dunno said:


> We've seen him use a stronger slash. We've seen that every swordsman has stronger melee attacks than ranged attacks. We saw that Mihawk's stance was very casual when he performed the slash. There's nothing at all indicating that it was his strongest slash.


You didn't see Mihawk's stance from that point unless you're talking about the anime which is non-canon. Even if you did, it means nothing you don't know how Mihawk performs his strongest slash.
You didn't see a stronger slash from him, that was Mihawk's strongest slash which splitted the large ground with a giant wave, it even shook the ground. Closest thing to that was sending a slash to Luffy, and no one called it was his strongest slash.
Manga tells you that it was the strongest slash and there is no evidence towards that it was not.
Mihawk sent that slash for Whitebeard, that alone should tell you how serious Mihawk was.


----------



## trance (Jun 11, 2018)

>his strongest attack
>air slashes are canonically weaker than melee range attacks
>statement comes from a random, single panel fodder


----------



## Dunno (Jun 11, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> You didn't see Mihawk's stance from that point unless you're talking about the anime which is non-canon. Even if you did, it means nothing you don't know how Mihawk performs his strongest slash.
> You didn't see a stronger slash from him, that was Mihawk's strongest slash which splitted the large ground with a giant wave, it even shook the ground. Closest thing to that was sending a slash to Luffy, and no one called it was his strongest slash.
> Manga tells you that it was the strongest slash and there is no evidence towards that it was not.
> Mihawk sent that slash for Whitebeard, that alone should tell you how serious Mihawk was.


I saw Mihawk's stance just before performing the slash, and it wasn't an effective slash. His other slash was stronger and did more damage to the environment. The manga doesn't tell us anything about his slash. A random fodder tells us about it, and he's less credible on the strength of Mihawk's slash than a random reader of the manga, since he know pretty much nothing about Mihawk. 

That slash being Mihawk's strongest slash is about as likely as Pica being stronger than Fujitora.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 11, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> You didn't see Mihawk's stance from that point unless you're talking about the anime which is non-canon. Even if you did, it means nothing you don't know how Mihawk performs his strongest slash.
> You didn't see a stronger slash from him, that was Mihawk's strongest slash which splitted the large ground with a giant wave, it even shook the ground. Closest thing to that was sending a slash to Luffy, and no one called it was his strongest slash.
> Manga tells you that it was the strongest slash and there is no evidence towards that it was not.
> Mihawk sent that slash for Whitebeard, that alone should tell you how serious Mihawk was.



just because some random marine fodders call it the World's strongest slash does not make it the strongest attack of mihawk.

deal with it,it was an unnamed attack too,which means that it was not even close mihawk's strongest attack


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jun 11, 2018)

If it actually is the world's strongest slash then it just helps our case. That means it is a slash stronger than anything Shanks can do, since even if he isn't a swordsman, he still uses his sword for slashes. 

It also means my explanation of Jozu's block makes even more sense


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jun 11, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Jinbe was running away from BM.
> Zoro was helpless against Fujitora and only saved his own butt, failed to do anything about Law.
> Aokiji defeated Luffy shortly after.
> Marco kicked Kizaru and said stay down son, Kizaru didn't do anything until he cheap-shotted him from behind when Marco was distracted.
> ...



If an admiral had a wide open attack to land on Kizaru, they would make him pay, not do 0 damage.

If an admiral had a wide open attack from behind on Aokiji, they would make him pay, not do 0 damage.

If an admiral had Vista backing them up attacking Akainu who doesn't even bother blocking, they would make him pay, not do 0 damage and get called "annoying."

*If an admiral had the entire WB pirates, Jinbe, and Crocodile behind them to just stall 1 admiral, Akainu wouldn't have gotten past in 30 seconds.*

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gohara (Jun 11, 2018)

^Not necessarily.  Characters significantly inferior to admirals withstand Kizaru's lasers.  Characters like admirals can withstand Kizaru's lasers easily.  That doesn't necessarily suggest that Kizaru is inferior to most Admirals.  Simply that admirals have different advantages.  Also Zoro is capable of breaking out of Fujitora's gravity without a problem.  Who is to say that Admirals can't do something like that?  Akainu's firepower is in a different league even compared to most admirals.


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jun 11, 2018)

Gohara said:


> ^Not necessarily.  Characters significantly inferior to admirals withstand Kizaru's lasers.  Characters like admirals can withstand Kizaru's lasers easily.  That doesn't necessarily suggest that Kizaru is inferior to most Admirals.  Simply that admirals have different advantages.  Also Zoro is capable of breaking out of Fujitora's gravity without a problem.  Who is to say that Admirals can't do something like that?  Akainu's firepower is in a different league even compared to most admirals.



No character in the manga has withstood Kizaru’s lasers. If you mean “get hit by it and not die,” well pre skip Luffy withstood a magma fist from the manga. His lasers have still gone through everything he’s shot at. And Aokiji fought Akainu for 10 days straight. Aokiji is in Akainu’s league, especially if you rank Marco in the admirals league for landing a few  kicks.


----------



## Gohara (Jun 11, 2018)

That is what withstand means possibly somewhat less exaggerated.  Withstanding =/= tanking.  Aokiji is in Akainu's league in combined skills.  Not necessarily in firepower.


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 12, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> just because some random marine fodders call it the World's strongest slash does not make it the strongest attack of mihawk.
> 
> deal with it,it was an unnamed attack too,which means that it was not even close mihawk's strongest attack


I've seen people arguing that Shanks stopped Akainu's attack because it was for Coby. Yet, the same people denies the fact that Mihawk's attack was for Whitebeard, yet Jozu stopped it.

I  will deal with it once you prove that Mihawk showed a greater attack than that, and I will deal with it once you prove someone disagreed with that claim in the manga that it wasn't Mihawk's strongest attack. I will deal it once you prove that Mihawk actually uses named attacks.


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jun 12, 2018)

Gohara said:


> That is what withstand means possibly somewhat less exaggerated.  Withstanding =/= tanking.  Aokiji is in Akainu's league in combined skills.  Not necessarily in firepower.



You can't use the word "withstood" for "survived," it can mislead people. And most people in this manga don't die anyway.

John Giant withstood a WB quake. Pre Skip/Pre Gear Luffy withstood an attack from Aokiji. Actually, pre skip Luffy has withstood attacks from every admiral, even Sengoku. Characters have withstood attacks from Magellan if surviving is the only requirement. It doesn't mean all of a sudden "characters significantly weaker than X have withstood Aokiji/WB attacks."

Kizaru is a marine, he's supposed to arrest pirates, and he usually prioritizes that. He has extreme precision, demonstrated when he shot a key from a mile away. If Kizaru wanted those SNs dead, they'd be dead. That's the most important thing here. Kizaru's offense has had a 100% hit rate thus far (minus the submarine), and everybody that he hit has felt it, from Marco to WB. We have absolutely no reason to doubt his offense, we've literally never seen it fail if a shot got off. Marco regened from that laser spam, but he was basically annihilated with all the holes going through him.


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jun 12, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> I've seen people arguing that Shanks stopped Akainu's attack because it was for Coby. Yet, the same people denies the fact that Mihawk's attack was for Whitebeard, yet Jozu stopped it.
> 
> I  will deal with it once you prove that Mihawk showed a greater attack than that, and I will deal with it once you prove someone disagreed with that claim in the manga that it wasn't Mihawk's strongest attack. I will deal it once you prove that Mihawk actually uses named attacks.



Every swordsman that isn't a one off character has named attacks. All of the admirals have named attacks. The yonkou have named attacks. Zoro has named attacks. The main character has named attacks. 90% of the people that are in this manga have named attacks. Characters even have named attacks for things like cooking. 

Mihawk didn't care when Jozu deflected his attack. Every other strong character has had a significant reaction when their attack is blocked or something unexpected happens. Mihawk proceeds to cut an iceberg in half from a distance while attacking Luffy, when earlier his "strongest slash" didn't do nearly as much damage to the surrouding environment.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Jun 12, 2018)

Why is this old thread still open when it's consensus was reached more than half a year ago? 
@Marcelle.B


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jun 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Every swordsman that isn't a one off character has named attacks. All of the admirals have named attacks. The yonkou have named attacks. Zoro has named attacks. The main character has named attacks. 90% of the people that are in this manga have named attacks. Characters even have named attacks for things like cooking.
> 
> Mihawk didn't care when Jozu deflected his attack. Every other strong character has had a significant reaction when their attack is blocked or something unexpected happens. Mihawk proceeds to cut an iceberg in half from a distance while attacking Luffy, when earlier his "strongest slash" didn't do nearly as much damage to the surrouding environment.


WB didn't use one named attack. Guess he was holding back at MF.



Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Why is this old thread still open when it's consensus was reached more than half a year ago?
> @Marcelle.B


What consensus? It never resolved into one.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 12, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> WB didn't use one named attack. Guess he was holding back at MF.
> 
> 
> What consensus? It never resolved into one.



Well as he said "swordsman". And it is true. Look at every single serious swordsmanship battle in OP and you will notice they all have named attacks, transformations or other gimmicks. All we´ve seen from Mihawk so far is him swinging his sword. And at a level that is only top tier by pre-skip standards so we will definitely see much more from him.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jun 12, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Well as he said "swordsman". And it is true. Look at every single serious swordsmanship battle in OP and you will notice they all have named attacks, transformations or other gimmicks. All we´ve seen from Mihawk so far is him swinging his sword. And at a level that is only top tier by pre-skip standards so we will definitely see much more from him.


The strongest swordsman we've seen, namely Mihawk, Rayleigh, Kizaru, Vista and Fujitora never used named sword attacks (Fuji's was in combination with his fruit). So perhaps it's only the lower level swordsman that use named attacks?

I'm sure Mihawk has far more to show, but I don't agree that because some people have named moves that he should too. I can live in a world where he has more powerful attacks than shown at MF. They don't have to be named.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 12, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> The strongest swordsman we've seen, namely Mihawk, Rayleigh, Kizaru, Vista and Fujitora never used named sword attacks (Fuji's was in combination with his fruit). So perhaps it's only the lower level swordsman that use named attacks?
> 
> I'm sure Mihawk has far more to show, but I don't agree that because some people have named moves that he should too. I can live in a world where he has more powerful attacks than shown at MF. They don't have to be named.



The thing is none of the characters you mentioned and haven´t shown named attacks were fighting seriously. They were just clashing swords. Once it is a fully fledged multi-chapter battle with lots of focus swordsmen usually start dishing out named attacks. I´m sure it will be the same for Mihawk, wait and see.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Gohara (Jun 12, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> John Giant withstood a



Withstands however also incapacitated even though his character has no techniques used against him prior to that in that arc.  That is significantly different than Pre Time Skip Luffy who withstands leagues of techniques from multiple arcs and is still not incapacitated from Kizaru's lasers.  To be fair Luffy's defense is amazing.  However other pre time skip supernova tier characters also withstand Kizaru's lasers.  Urouge, Drake, Apoo, and Hawkins all withstand techniques from Kizaru in that they're not incapacitated from those techniques and seem to stand up before Kizaru can capture them.  Also if it can be argued that Luffy's defense is amazing in that a significantly battle worn Pre Time Skip Luffy can withstand techniques from all Admirals then what is up with all the flack that you're aiming at Lord Katakuri for a fully healed Post Time Skip Luffy withstanding techniques from him?  I'm not arguing against Kizaru's accuracy and ability for his techniques to pierce other characters.  I'm arguing that Kizaru's lasers lack offense in comparison to other Admirals in that they're techniques that are a lot easier to withstand than most other techniques from Admirals.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jun 13, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> The thing is none of the characters you mentioned and haven´t shown named attacks were fighting seriously. They were just clashing swords. Once it is a fully fledged multi-chapter battle with lots of focus swordsmen usually start dishing out named attacks. I´m sure it will be the same for Mihawk, wait and see.


In the meantime we will have to go with what has been shown. Namely that the best swordsmen we've seen do not use named moves.

Moreover Luffy for instance has names for weak attacks like jet pistol. Surely Mihawk would have a name for the iceberg cutter? He did what Zoro did but from a distance and Zoro's was named.


----------



## trance (Jun 13, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Not necessarily in firepower



except he is


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 13, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Every swordsman that isn't a one off character has named attacks. All of the admirals have named attacks. The yonkou have named attacks. Zoro has named attacks. The main character has named attacks. 90% of the people that are in this manga have named attacks. Characters even have named attacks for things like cooking.



Whitebeard doesn't have a named attack.

We didn't see a named attack from Sengoku or Garp, were they holding back against Blackbeard, Prime Chinjao and Marco?

Rayleigh didn't use a named attack on Kizaru, was he holding back?

Marco didn't use a named attack on Kizaru, Aokiji and Akainu, was he holding back? Vista didn't use a named attack on Akainu was holding back too?

Law's final and his strongest attack on Vergo wasn't a named attack. Ryuma's Dragon cutting slash wasn't a named attack.

There isn't a rule such as ''if you don't use a named attack then it's not your strongest attack.''



DoctorLaw said:


> Mihawk didn't care when Jozu deflected his attack. Every other strong character has had a significant reaction when their attack is blocked or something unexpected happens. Mihawk proceeds to cut an iceberg in half from a distance while attacking Luffy, when earlier his "strongest slash" didn't do nearly as much damage to the surrouding environment.



You can easily see the gigantic ice packs that bouncing back from the ground due to Mihawk's strongest slash.



To say that Mihawk used a stronger attack against Luffy is nothing but an empty claim. Manga already said that the attack he used on Whitebeard was the strongest.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Jun 13, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> In the meantime we will have to go with what has been shown. Namely that the best swordsmen we've seen do not use named moves.
> 
> Moreover Luffy for instance has names for weak attacks like jet pistol. Surely Mihawk would have a name for the iceberg cutter? He did what Zoro did but from a distance and Zoro's was named.



I mean you can disagree if you want that is fine with me. It´s only a trivial matter anyway since we both already agreed that Mihawk more than likely has more to offer. Mihawk not naming the iceberg cutter could actually be an indicator that he has a much higher ceiling than we can imagine but that´s just speculation for now.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Dunno (Jun 13, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Whitebeard doesn't have a named attack.
> 
> We didn't see a named attack from Sengoku or Garp, were they holding back against Blackbeard, Prime Chinjao and Marco?
> 
> ...


The manga said nothing. Stop lying.


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 13, 2018)

Dunno said:


> The manga said nothing. Stop lying.





Do you have a better source? If you don't have it, then stop lying.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jun 13, 2018)

This shit is like a 53 pages long Mihawk vs Shanks thread.

It went from Commanders vs Admirals to Mihawk is not the WSS and his unnamed attacks.


----------



## Gohara (Jun 13, 2018)

@ superstars

"You're not getting it."

I get what you're trying to say.  However I'm arguing that titles changing based on temporary nerfedness doesn't make sense.  Use other characters as examples using same arguments.  Mihawk's title of world's greatest swordsman doesn't somehow not apply if his toes are temporarily broken and therefore his foot work isn't on par with usual.

Using feats of Whitebeard's character doesn't suggest anything because those are feats against non-Yonkou characters.  There is no reason to assume that other Yonkou characters wouldn't be able to do the same if not superior.  Those Yonkou characters have yet to even match up significantly on screen without being nerfed.  Also don't admiral => yonkou fans disagree that Whitebeard's character bests Akainu?


----------



## Gohara (Jun 13, 2018)

redrum said:


> except he is



If Kizaru is then that means that Pre Time Skip Supernova ranking characters can withstand techniques from all the Admirals.


----------



## trance (Jun 13, 2018)

Gohara said:


> If Kizaru is then that means that Pre Time Skip Supernova ranking characters can withstand techniques from all the Admirals.



was referring to what you said here about aokiji :/



> Aokiji is in Akainu's league in combined
> skills. Not necessarily in firepower



tho, i don't think kizaru's very far behind akainu in firepower either, if at all

they may vary in other areas but their raw destructive power has been portrayed to be about on par with each other

this even extends to fujitora

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Gohara (Jun 13, 2018)

Ah whoops.  Even so what proof is there of that?  What portrays admirals' techniques as all having the same degree of destructive capabilities?  They have a lot of AoE however if Akainu's lava is more potent than Kizaru's lasers then Akainu still has superior firepower to Kizaru.


----------



## DoctorLaw (Jun 13, 2018)

Gohara said:


> If Kizaru is then that means that Pre Time Skip Supernova ranking characters can withstand techniques from all the Admirals.



What SN tanked a Kizaru laser?


----------



## trance (Jun 13, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Ah whoops.  Even so what proof is there of that?  What portrays admirals' techniques as all having the same degree of destructive capabilities?  They have a lot of AoE however if Akainu's lava is more potent than Kizaru's lasers then Akainu still has superior firepower to Kizaru.



i was mostly talking about aoe :/ 

but what feats does akainu's magma have that decisively surpass kizaru's lasers in power?


----------



## Gohara (Jun 13, 2018)

Ah that is reasonable however I am referring specifically to potency.  Akainu's lava is capable of besting characters more easily than Kizaru's lasers such as Pre Time Skip Supernova ranking characters withstanding Kizaru's lasers and escaping whereas Akainu's lava techniques have incapacitated characters superior to that in basically the same amount of techniques.  I agree that Admirals are mostly around the same league.  However it is also arguable that their Devil Fruits are superior in different things such as Kizaru's making his character more speedily and Akainu's having the most potency.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Gohara (Jun 13, 2018)

Not tanked however Pre Time Skip Supernova ranking characters have shown that they can withstand Kizaru's lasers as basically the ones that Kizaru uses lasers against aren't incapacitated and even escape before Kizaru is able to get back to that location to capture those characters.


----------



## Dunno (Jun 13, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Do you have a better source? If you don't have it, then stop lying.


Thank you for linking to my source. We can clearly see in that picture that the manga isn't saying that it's the world's strongest slash. We can clearly see that it's a fodder marine saying that it's the world's strongest slash. A fodder marine =/= the manga.


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 14, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Thank you for linking to my source. We can clearly see in that picture that the manga isn't saying that it's the world's strongest slash. We can clearly see that it's a fodder marine saying that it's the world's strongest slash. A fodder marine =/= the manga.


1-) How do you know it was a ''fodder'' marine? Did you see who said that?
2-) Again, do you have a better source than this to disprove the source I've showed? As far as I know, manga > you.


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 16, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco having the edge over Kizaru until bullshit happened.
> 1) Turning around to worry about Whitebeard
> 2) Being double teamed where the second person slipped on seastone
> 
> ...



just because marco pushed back kizaru doesnt mean he is winning.
by that logic
Zoro was beating fujitora because he sent fujitora flying
even jinbei was winning against big mom because he sent big mom flying
even luffy was beating aokiji because he kicked aokiji high up into the air.

your arguement is shit

cracker's durability is a joke,fujitora's meteors would destroy cracker's biscuits also a gravity crush would be more than enough to beat cracker

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## shisuiuchiha5 (Jun 16, 2018)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Marco > Admiral = Jozu > Thatch > Vista > Ace
> Ace can hang with an admiral but of course loses.
> 
> Vista and Ace together can probably beat an admiral with mid diff.


on what basis  is thatch stronger than vista?
there is no evidence to say that thatch is stronger than vista but weaker than jozu.
burgess was the commander of 1st division,he definitely wasnt the strongest
overall you are just making up things
oda even stated that number of division commander doesnt matter


----------



## Raiden34 (Jun 16, 2018)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> just because marco pushed back kizaru doesnt mean he is winning.
> by that logic
> Zoro was beating fujitora because he sent fujitora flying
> even jinbei was winning against big mom because he sent big mom flying
> ...


Did you just save this post? I swear you've posted the same thing before...



shisuiuchiha5 said:


> just because marco pushed back kizaru doesnt mean he is winning.



I agree. The context is important.



shisuiuchiha5 said:


> by that logic
> Zoro was beating fujitora because he sent fujitora flying


The context in that fight is Zoro saved his own butt by pushing Fujitora a little bit and before that Fujitora stomped him into the ground and bled him. If not for that, Fujitora one-shotted Zoro without even using his full power. Zoro was still helpless and he watched Fujitora who was leaving the place with Law.



shisuiuchiha5 said:


> even jinbei was winning against big mom because he sent big mom flying



Jinbe was shitting himself and running away from Big Mom. He had advantage of the sea, and he was able to use the sea water, still he was no match and he was running away.



shisuiuchiha5 said:


> even luffy was beating aokiji because he kicked aokiji high up into the air.



One second later Aokiji stomped Luffy.



shisuiuchiha5 said:


> your arguement is shit



No, yours is. Marco kicked Kizaru into the ground and said shut the fuck and Kizaru did nothing but waiting for a cheap-shot in the entire war. The examples you gave are not even remotely close to what happened between Marco and Kizaru.



shisuiuchiha5 said:


> cracker's durability is a joke,fujitora's meteors would destroy cracker's biscuits also a gravity crush would be more than enough to beat cracker



Cracker can produce more biscuits than the Fujitora's summoned meteors. Meteors takes time, Cracker's biscuits are much easier to produce, especially if Fujitora doesn't have someone who can throw water over them, which makes it much harder to destroy. G4 Luffy couldn't even destroy all of them and he needed to hide from Cracker, without Nami's water, he was losing.


----------



## Soca (Jun 16, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> This shit is like a 53 pages long Mihawk vs Shanks thread.
> 
> It went from Commanders vs Admirals to Mihawk is not the WSS and his unnamed attacks.


More like the debate is sprinkled between the real debate. 

So what I'll do is lock down this thread and make a new one to monitor more closely since this one went way off the trails.


----------

