# Hiruzen beat Hashirama at 69 years old, and Madara couldn't do it in his Prime.



## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

People want to know what makes Hiruzen so special? A fact like this one makes him special.

What hype could be greater than the fact that Hiruzen way past his prime was strong enough to beat both Hashirama *and* his brother while they were in their primes? Madara tried to beat the same Hashirama that Hiruzen beat and failed. He even had the Kyuubi on his side.

Every edo kage that lost during this war was respected for their power and strength, probably with the exception of Gaara's father. All of their defeats are considered legitimate, but somehow people want to try and act as if Hiruzen defeating Hashirama and Tobirama isn't. No matter how much people try and change the facts, part one and part two of Naruto are both one and the same story. It's obvious enough because Kishi constantly refers back to flashbacks from part one, further validating all that was showcased on part one. Hiruzen was extraordinarily strong, he was not stronger than Hiruzen.

Hiruzen was considered to be stronger than every last kage currently fighting against Madara now when he was alive. Tsunade and Gaara wasn't being included in that list, but we can safely say that all the other kages were leading their villages. Onoki sure as hell was, and there's no doubt A was leading his village as well. Like it or not, everytime Kishi hypes Hashirama, he also directly hypes the man who defeated him. And considering which technique got the job done, Minato is praised from the grave as well.


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## Kai (Feb 24, 2012)

_"Do you intend to let the former hokages kill you bit by bit _*as they toy with you?"*

_"Please, hurry up and *present that jutsu to me."*_


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

You need a better excuse than that, sorry. They were both defeated. It's almost like the ones who say Madara is toying around with the five kage right now, because he's still so cocky, or Tobi has been toying around with Naruto, or Danzou was toying around with Sasuke.

A fight between high level ninja is always for real, regardless of how cocky one side of the equation may be. Got anything better? You going to tell me that Hashirama was weakened next? Wanna know who else was toying around with their opponent? Kisame toyed with Gai twice, and you see where that got him.

But, you know, you're right, Orochimaru fully planned on Hiruzen defeating the First and Second Hokages with a super powerful technique that neither one of them could see coming. Oh, and he beat them both while basically blind...

69 years old, way past his prime, lower chakra levels than in his youth, he was blind, up against two former Hokages, and he still won over the same Hashirama that Madara couldn't beat.


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## Kai (Feb 24, 2012)

It is not the same because Hashirama didn't have a personal say on any of his actions. 

You think the real Hashirama would choose to stand there while an exploding tag blew his legs off?

*They were controlled.* None, and I repeat *none* of their movements were self driven.

Oro _let_ Hiruzen perform the Shiki Fuujin. Who says Hashirama would have that same interest?


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## gaseoussnake (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> You need a better excuse than that, sorry. They were both defeated. It's almost like the ones who say Madara is toying around with the five kage right now, because he's still so cocky, or Tobi has been toying around with Naruto, or Danzou was toying around with Sasuke.
> 
> A fight between high level ninja is always for real, regardless of how cocky one side of the equation may be. Got anything better? You going to tell me that Hashirama was weakened next? Wanna know who else was toying around with their opponent? Kisame toyed with Gai twice, and you see where that got him.
> 
> But, you know, you're right, Orochimaru fully planned on Hiruzen defeating the First and Second Hokages with a super powerful technique that neither one of them could see coming. Oh, and he beat them both while blind...



Besides Orochimaru was always a Psychopath. The guy was all taunts and Jokes when he fought Naruto at the Bridge even though Naruto was killing him


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## First Tsurugi (Feb 24, 2012)

We know Hashirama was more capable than what his Edo showed, I don't know how you can deny that Edo Hashirama and Tobirama weren't either gimped or held back in some way.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Hashirama didn't see Hiruzen slip the explosive tag on there in the first place. It caught him and his brother completely by surprise. Edo Tensei ninja possess the same skill level that they do in life. If you think it's crazy to think that they could have those explosive tags on their legs like that, don't blame me, blame Kishi for making Hiruzen skilled enough to play two former hokages like that.

We already have proof that Edo Tensei ninjas who are controlled can think for themselves, avoid attacks and think tactically. We saw it from the Third Raikage, we saw it from Nagato. All of their moves were self driven, Orochimaru simply commanded them to start taking the fight to Hiruzen. All their decisions after that were their own. Their mistakes were also their own.

Orochimaru wasn't hand picking how they fight or what techniques they use. And if you think the pauses in the battle to talk trash are somehow unique to that battle, think again. 

It happened multiple times since Madara showed up already. It happened in Sasuke vs Danzou, it happened in Pain vs Naruto. It even took place in Jiraiya vs Pain. There's no excuse that can be arrived at that explains this fact away. This talking mid fight is even happening in Tobi vs Naruto.


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## Gilgamesh (Feb 24, 2012)

Dude seriously enough with the damage control, it's been shown time after time that Shodai>>>Sarutobi 

Sarutobi is the most overrated character in the manga apart from Minato and Itachi


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Really? When was that shown? Was it perhaps this chapter?



Oh, also, Hiruzen was backed up by 3 shadow clones. That also aided in keeping him alive long enough to defeat them. They had no idea which was the real Hiruzen from one which wasn't.

So Hashirama isn't being overrated when Kishi showcased to us that a 69 year old, way past his prime Hiruzen was able to take him down? 



> We know Hashirama was more capable than what his Edo showed, I don't know how you can deny that Edo Hashirama and Tobirama weren't either gimped or held back in some way.



Actually, Kishimoto himself told us multiple times that only one ninja was gimped on that day, it was Sarutobi himself. Sarutobi's own summon kept saying how this type of performance isn't at all like Hiruzen. Sarutobi was also struggling with having to fight his own student. He was heart broken. Sarutobi, according to the ANBU, did not possess as much chakra as he did in his youth, and mentioned that old age has caught up with him. Orochimaru himself stated that he has never seen Hiruzen struggle so much before. He said that Hiruzen was considered a shinobi god.

Orochimaru himself even stated that if Hiruzen were just 10 years younger, he might have been able to kill him. So, I've just provided plenty of proof that Hiruzen was gimped or held back, now show me some proof that the same was true for either Hashirama or Tobirama. Call it damage control, this is setting the record straight on what the manga has shown. Hiruzen was confirmed gimped by multiple sources, by Orochimaru, by Hiruzen himself (his primary weapon was too heavy for him) the ANBU, Hiruzen's summon, even Kakashi pointed out in part two that he understands the struggle that the Third went through now after seeing how far Sasuke had fallen.


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## Kai (Feb 24, 2012)

Except Oro canonically ordered the hokages to toy with Hiruzen. It is not in any hokages' character to toy with their enemies. Their actions were directly controlled.

Even by straight definition of the word they were were operating at minimum capacity.

That is how Hashirama and Tobirama were duped despite wielding their immense power.


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## rac585 (Feb 24, 2012)

Oro's Edo Tensei was weak


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Even though there is zero proof that they were operating at this minimum capacity, and there was tons of proof from multiple sources that Hiruzen *was* indeed operating at tremendously lesser capacity compared to his youth, why exactly couldn't two prime of their power hokages defeat a 69 year old past his prime hokage?

I mean, don't get me wrong, people feel as if Hiruzen defeating Hashirama and Tobirama is somehow this great smear on their reputation. The man was their student. They both personally trained the man. Why people would think that someone personally trained by Hashirama himself and Hashirama's brother, is a scrub is utterly beyond my comprehension.

Hiruzen had to commit suicide using the Fourth Hokage's most powerful technique just to win. There is no greater compliment of Hashirama and his brother than this, but for whatever reason, people seem intent on making excuses for Hashirama and Tobirama, who were both immortal by the way. Even if I accept that there were these absolutely made up and not backed up by the manga things that were holding back the power of both hokages, the fact that hiruzen had all those factors working against him, more than makes up for it.

Call it plot no jutsu, but Hiruzen beat both Hokages at the cost of his own life. People can complain and say that Sasuke didn't beat Danzou because he couldn't use Shisui's eye, but Sasuke's defeat of Danzou is canon. He was labeled as superior to Danzou as canon. Who cares that Danzou couldn't use his greatest weapon. Danzou actually has more of an excuse than either Hashirama or Tobirama did.



> Oro's Edo Tensei was weak



This is funny considering it was Orochimaru's chakra that actually made Kabuto's edo tensei strong. You have to come better than that. Orochimaru's Edo Tensei weak? Another factor that people conveniently forget is that they were fighting inside of a closed off barrier, which automatically put a limiter on how epic the scale of their battle could be.


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## First Tsurugi (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Words



We know Hiruzen was gimped, but we also know Hashirama had a shitton of moves he could have and should have used but didn't.

We don't know why that is, so we can only speculate.


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## Kai (Feb 24, 2012)

It's not a smear on anyone's reputation... Oro *ordered* the hokages to keep the training wheels on against Hiruzen. He _made_ them hold back and he says this directly to Hiruzen in the dark.

We have two prime hokages against a 69 year old man void of any visual sight, and they choose to engage in strict taijutsu rather than resorting to Hashirama's Mokuton, pollen, or Tobirama's S/T ninjutsu and Edo Tensei. 

Again, it's not a smear on anyone's reputation. The hokages were ordered to hold back and the only time they attacked together was in joint taijutsu.

Now imagine if the Senju bros tapped into all their 'mythical' powers *and* used jutsu combinations together.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

How is that any different from Danzou not having the use of Shisui's eye at the start of his fight against Sasuke? Pain was gimped at the start of his fight with Naruto. We saw none of Nagato's elemental jutsu. 

Jiraiya had other techniques that he could have used against Pain, but didn't. All cases where high level battles between ninja were fought. Ninjas don't always show everything in their arsenal in any single combat encounter, Minato is a prime example of this. The last time we've seen kirin from Sasuke, for example, was his fight against Itachi. Minato showed us a total of one offensive technique, the Rasengan.

None of this changes the fact Sasuke beat Danzou and Naruto beat the Six Paths of Pain. Shit ton of moves? Madara has used exactly one new Hashirama technique, just one. The technique we saw this chapter. Databook also confirms that the technique Hashirama used against Hiruzen was his trademark technique, sorta like the shadow clone technique for Naruto. That was the same technique naruto countered with his rasen tairengan. That technique was used against Hiruzen, and Hiruzen countered with Enma.

We can all says this could have happened this way, this could have happened that way, but we all know what did happen. Hiruzen defeated Hashirama and the Second Hokage, forever sealing them away inside the deathgod forever, at the cost of his own life. He needed to use the Fourth Hokage's greatest technique to beat Hashirama. That is a compliment of Hashirama. Maybe Hashirama would have followed up with the flower tree world technique if Hiruzen didn't quickly make his move with the shiki fujin. *I'm sure nobody expects that the First and Second Hokage were planning on leaving Hiruzen alive, right?*


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## Missing_Nin (Feb 24, 2012)

old man 3rd hokage = 7 kage level minimum. Imagine him in his prime.  I would say he's 13 kage level like naruto or maybe even more.


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## Fay (Feb 24, 2012)

IMO Hiruzen>>>all. God of Shinobi and all that jazz


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## Naru-Ichi (Feb 24, 2012)

Are you trolling or are you actually serious? Because....


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Kai said:


> It's not a smear on anyone's reputation... Oro *ordered* the hokages to keep the training wheels on against Hiruzen. He _made_ them hold back and he says this directly to Hiruzen in the dark.
> 
> We have two prime hokages against a 69 year old man void of any visual sight, and they choose to engage in strict taijutsu rather than resorting to Hashirama's Mokuton, pollen, or Tobirama's S/T ninjutsu and Edo Tensei.
> 
> ...



The point is they were defeated before they could do anything further. Also, Hiruzen had created 2 shadow clones. They couldn't tell which was the real one. Maybe they engaged in taijutsu to see which would go poof, perhaps, but that didn't happen. The two brothers did work together. Hashirama followed up his brother's water attack that was countered by Hiruzen's earth technique with his trademark technique that essentially used hiruzen's own technique to trap him. 

Things happened the way they did, because Kishi decided to write it that way. Why did Madara knock down the five kages instead of using his susanoo's sword on them like he did to so many fodder?

*Why doesn't Madara drop another two meteors right now? He's immortal isn't, he?* See, this is my point. We can play this game so many ways. I'm not here to ask why. I'm only here to say what actually happened. The First Hokage and Second Hokage were summoned back to life using Edo Tensei, Hiruzen defeated them both. This actually happened. They weren't fakes of the two men.



> Are you trolling or are you actually serious? Because....



I'm kinda laying it on a bit thick on purpose to make a simple point. Do we acknowledge that Hiruzen defeated Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju by himself? Or are we going to act as if it didn't happen, and explain it away by saying "LOL part one isn't even canon" or something crazy like that.


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## Kai (Feb 24, 2012)

Of course they weren't trying to kill Hiruzen — at least nowhere near immediately. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to toy with anyone, not to mention the fact that it's impossible to disobey the wielder's direct orders.



			
				SageNaturalBunshin said:
			
		

> The First Hokage and Second Hokage were summoned back to life using Edo Tensei, Hiruzen defeated them both. This actually happened.


Nobody denies that happened. To deny anything else that _contributes_ to how that happened is where ignorance is born.


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## Csdabest (Feb 24, 2012)

I dont know. Many statements keep saying Minato and Hiruzen were the strongest Hokages Knonoha has had and that woyuld place them over Hashirama and Tobirama. Combined with the fact that Hashirama and Tobirama were soloed by Hiruzen with Orochimaru there. It be one thing if it was just one on one. But it was 3 on 1. And Hashirma did indeed use a huge Aoe Wood jutsu. So it hard to defend him. Minato>/=Hiruzen> hashirama


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## Naru-Ichi (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> I'm kinda laying it on a bit thick on purpose to make a simple point. Do we acknowledge that Hiruzen defeated Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju by himself? Or are we going to act as if it didn't happen, and explain it away by saying "LOL part one isn't even canon" or something crazy like that.



Do with it however you want, but it's pretty illogical to ignore the circumstances of that fight and go straight with "Hiruzen > Hashirama and Tobirama"


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Orochimaru maintained that playful, mocking attitude of his right up until his last moments. That aspect of Orochimaru was never going to change. But I'll bite on this one.

So, clearly these two Hokages, Hashirama and Tobirama, aren't so far ahead of Hiruzen that they can get away with toying with him, eh? This, in itself, would seem to be an acknowledgement then that Hiruzen is strong enough to demand the absolute best from even two former Hokages? This, too, is a compliment of Hiruzen. You play games with him, and you end up like his two predecessors did.



Naru-Ichi said:


> Do with it however you want, but it's pretty illogical to ignore the circumstances of that fight and go straight with "Hiruzen > Hashirama and Tobirama"



I'm being a bit tongue in cheek, but I'm also not crazy. I fully believe that a Hashirama of his right mind and without Orochimaru at the helm gives Hiruzen a better fight. However, Kishi clearly wanted to show us Hiruzen beating these two Hokages, and with the 4th's technique, for a reason. And Kishi told us for a very important reason multiple times that Hiruzen was clearly not at the peak of his strength. So, all things considered, I think it balances out and, at the least, puts Hiruzen on the same level as his predecessors. He was classified a shinobi god.

He was considered the strongest of all five kages during his reign. I'm just vehemently opposed to this notion that Hashirama or Tobirama are on this entirely different plateau of ability or power that Hiruzen could never hope to match. They both trained him and passed on their will of fire to him. Out of respect for the two and their ability, I like to think they would have been certain to not leave someone that couldn't at least give the two of them a serious run for their money. Because reading some posts, you would think that Hashirama can get away with toying around with Hiruzen because Hiruzen is somehow not even in the same league. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have been shown winning is the way I see it.


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## Naru-Ichi (Feb 24, 2012)

Eh the overall power level of the hokages doesn't really matter much to me. But I can say that I don't think a "Prime Hiruzen" (if we go by his hype) would necessarily be outclassed by Hashirama.


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## Kai (Feb 24, 2012)

The hokages were introduced not for power reasons but for sentimental reasons. Orochimaru and the databooks certify this.

And yes, toying with Hiruzen is pretty unwise even if you are the great Hashirama. The real Hashirama, who *acknowledged* Hiruzen's strength as his successor, wouldn't have and isn't known to pull off any stunts like that.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 24, 2012)

So what you are saying OP is that Madara + Kyuubi < Hiruzen, when we clearly saw how impotent and hopeless was Hiruzen against Kyuubi in his 50s. That's 10 years past his "prime". Then 16 years later, even older and weaker Hiruzen beats both - Hashi and Tobirama. Yes, makes sense 




Kai said:


> And yes, toying with Hiruzen is pretty unwise even if you are the great Hashirama. The real Hashirama, who *acknowledged* Hiruzen's strength as his successor, wouldn't have and isn't known to pull off any stunts like that.


Their personalities were erased.


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## son_michael (Feb 24, 2012)

Orochimaru chose their justu's, they had no free will or even consciousness, they were being fed by oro's chakra.

the best analogy would be...orochimaru was using 2 puppets.



In no way were they REMOTELY close to the level they were at when they were alive. Hashirama's feats essentially prove this


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## lain2501 (Feb 24, 2012)

It's just a plot hole, Kabuto said long ago to Orochimaru (right after his fight against Konoha) that Sarutobi was the strongest of the three and now suddenly Hashimara is the strongest, this is just Kishi bullshitting us without him noticing it because he's such a poor writer. And tomorrow we are gonna learn that Minato in fact was stronger or blablablabla....


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## Marsala (Feb 24, 2012)

People are making way too big a deal over the defeat of Hashirama and Tobirama. Kishimoto said that Deidara was the strongest of Kabuto's army, but he got beat by Sai, Kankurou, and Omoi (alongside Sasori, too!). I guess those three are on the same level as the five Kage, eh? Maybe better!


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 24, 2012)

lain2501 said:


> It's just a plot hole, Kabuto said long ago to Orochimaru (right after his fight against Konoha) that Sarutobi was the strongest of the three and now suddenly Hashimara is the strongest, this is just Kishi bullshitting us without him noticing it because he's such a poor writer. And tomorrow we are gonna learn that Minato in fact was stronger or blablablabla....



There have been no indications that Hashirama was the strongest.


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## Do ya (Feb 24, 2012)

I do believe that Shodaime and Nidaime couldn't fight with their full strengths there, because Orochimaru's Edo Tensei didn't allow them to do that.

However, I do also believe that Hiruzen was stronger than them in his prime, because that's stated  If we see now a flashback of Hiruzen fighting someone like Oonoki we'd obviously see some crazy shit.




lain2501 said:


> It's just a plot hole, Kabuto said long ago to Orochimaru (right after his fight against Konoha) that Sarutobi was the strongest of the three and now suddenly Hashimara is the strongest, this is just Kishi bullshitting us without him noticing it because he's such a poor writer. And tomorrow we are gonna learn that Minato in fact was stronger or blablablabla....



It was stated that there were no ninja alive as strong as Hashirama, but there could have been.


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## Starstalker (Feb 24, 2012)

Well, I believe that this happened because at that point in time, Kishi had no big plans for Hashirama, which wouldn't surprise me(it was sooo eraly in the manga).


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 24, 2012)

> If we see now a flashback of Hiruzen fighting someone like Oonoki we'd obviously see some crazy shit.



Like what? Aside from lame single nature releases he didn't have anything that could amaze us. Kishi could only make him stronger by doing an asspull of titanic proportions


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## Do ya (Feb 24, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Like what? Aside from lame single nature releases he didn't have anything that could amaze us. Kishi could only make him stronger by doing an asspull of titanic proportions



Which has never happened before, right


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Feb 24, 2012)

1. Hashirama Senju:


Bijuu Control
Senju Body
Wood Release
Water Release
Earth Release
Kokuangyo no Jutsu (Bringer of Darkness Technique)

Feats:

- First Hokage
- Defeated Madara
- Tamed All Bijuu's
- Founded Konoha

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

2. Tobirama Senju:


Senju Body
Space/Time Technique
Water Release
Impure World Resurrection Technique

Feats:

- Second Hokage
- Invented Impure World Resurrection Technique
- Created Uchiha Police Force
- Fought Kinkaku Force

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3. Hiruzen Sarutobi:


Earth Release
Fire Release
Summoning: Monkey King - Enma
Shiki Fujin (Death Demon Seal)

Feats:

- Third Hokage
- Defended Konoha from Nine Tailed Fox
- Mastered all jutsus within Konoha
- Defeated both First and Second Hokage under Edo Tensei in weakened state.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All great characters, but you just have to give credit where credit is due. The man was an elderly, WAY past his prime and fought TWO of his masters who are LEGENDS. 

Hiruzen is truely the God of Shinobi. I'd love to see a flashback to his prime when he was man-handling the Sandaime Raikage, Sandaime Mizukage, Sandaime Kazekage, and Oonoki all at the same time.


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## John Connor (Feb 24, 2012)

Hiruzen is equal to Minato and Shodai because kishi says so

for whatever reason kishi doesnt want to show us proof


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Feb 24, 2012)

John Connor said:


> Hiruzen is equal to Minato and Shodai because kishi says so
> 
> for whatever reason kishi doesnt want to show us proof



It's not like he doesn't want to show you proof but Hiruzen did his job. He can live off hype...

Nothing needs to be seen about Hiruzen.

He was the longest reigning Kage, ever.

While he was Kage the Hidden Leaf was in a time of PEACE. For 16 years no attacks/invasions on the village.

After the 4th died they chose the 3rd to come BACK in office. With Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru gone the leaf had to resort to bringing back The Professor.


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## John Connor (Feb 24, 2012)

Nidaime Mizukage said:


> It's not like he doesn't want to show you proof but Hiruzen did his job. He can live off hype...
> 
> Nothing needs to be seen about Hiruzen.
> 
> ...


the 3rd great shinobi war was during Hiruzens time

and by all accounts Konoha emphatically displayed its might against the aggressors


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Feb 24, 2012)

John Connor said:


> the 3rd great shinobi war was during Hiruzens time
> 
> and by all accounts Konoha emphatically displayed its might against the aggressors



Yeah his first time as Kage... I'm talking his second run in office after Minato died... no wars/invasions for 16 years.


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## jacamo (Feb 24, 2012)

this damage control is becoming a parody

Kabuto said himself his Fuda tags far surpass the ones Oro had

Hiruzen is an ant compared to Hashirama


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## Arles Celes (Feb 24, 2012)

Errr...is the TC trying to argue that Old Sarutobi>Hashirama+Tobirama?

If that is the case then Oro>Hashirama and Tobirama too since the DB stated that Oro and Old Sarutobi were on the same level...though before the invasion Sarutobi himself said that there is no one in the village who can compete with Orochimaru now including Hiruzen himself.

By that logic Itachi who was stated as Oro's superior would defeat Hashirama and Tobirama with his eyes closed.

No wonder they need Itachi to handle Edo Madara LOL


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## batman22wins (Feb 24, 2012)

lain2501 said:


> It's just a plot hole, Kabuto said long ago to Orochimaru (right after his fight against Konoha) that Sarutobi was the strongest of the three and now suddenly Hashimara is the strongest, this is just Kishi bullshitting us without him noticing it because he's such a poor writer. And tomorrow we are gonna learn that Minato in fact was stronger or blablablabla....



Its no plothole. Different characters have said different Hokages are the best. These are just character experiences like Kakashi/Jman would think Minato is the best.


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## batman22wins (Feb 24, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> Errr...is the TC trying to argue that Old Sarutobi>Hashirama+Tobirama?
> 
> If that is the case then Oro>Hashirama and Tobirama too since the DB stated that Oro and Old Sarutobi were on the same level...though before the invasion Sarutobi himself said that there is no one in the village who can compete with Orochimaru now including Hiruzen himself.
> 
> ...



In the databook in was clearly stated Oro was toying with him. They were both standing their and Oro barly attacked. If Oro was serious why didn't all 3 of them attack him at the same time to give him no opening


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## αce (Feb 24, 2012)

The Hiruzen butthurt is amazing.
Anyone claiming that his edo showed what he was capable of is in full denial mode.


Old Hashirama obviously isn't superior to Madara with the kyuubi.
He couldn't even stop it properly against Konoha.

The things some people say
:sanji


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## atenzor (Feb 24, 2012)

some people are taking narutoverse power levels too seriously...

sigh


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## Frostman (Feb 24, 2012)

Haruzen did use the death god jutsu. Which is basically a one hit kill regardless of who you are. He would have been defeated had he not went that far.


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## Rawri (Feb 24, 2012)

Hiruzen did not defeat Hashirama. Nor Tobirama. They were puppets, not having the same 'auto-pilot' Kabuto has. Sort of like Sasori's puppets.

People don't say Chiyo and Sakura defeated Sasori and the Third Kazekage, and they shouldn't do so here. As I've said in another thread, if Ino mind controls the Raikage and still loses to Sakura, does it mean she defeated the Raikage? No. The most important of a ninja is their 'soul'. The affinity they have developped with their jutsus, the battle experience...

You are right Madara couldn't defeat Hashirama. But he actually faced him. Considering what Itachi did to Orochimaru, I'd like to have seen Madara in Hiruzen's position. I have a feeling Orochimaru wouldn't fare so good.


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## Karman (Feb 24, 2012)

Kai is correct here. Hashirama and Tobirama were consciously toned down by Orochimaru, not because he wanted them weak, but because he was trying to draw this 'new jutsu' out of him. Many forget how the whole point of that fight wasn't to display the strength of the ailing Hiruzen, but to exploit the fundamental weakness of Orochimaru's psychology.

Hiruzen was considerably weaker in that fight than he ever was in his prime. This is true.

It is also true the Edo Kages were wearing kid gloves at Orochimaru's behest.

This fight fails as an accurate comparison of skill levels between Oro, Hiruzen, Hashi, and Tobirama. It succeeds in showing the basic weakness in an ideology that covets vast power and is willing to forgo safety in it's pursuit. Had Oro's interest in witnessing Shiki Fujin not been so great, he would never have seen it, or been damaged by it. Why? Because the biju-blocking power of the First and the Seconds familiarity with Hiruzen as his sensei would've prevailed in a contest of raw power.


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## ZE (Feb 24, 2012)

Kai said:


> Except Oro canonically ordered the hokages to toy with Hiruzen. It is not in any hokages' character to toy with their enemies. Their actions were directly controlled.



You misunderstood what happened. Oro did indeed order the hokages to toy with Hiruzen, but that was only after Shodai used his darkness genjutsu and after Hiruzen said he was about to use a jutsu Oro didn't know. Hiruzen's words were what made Oro wait (and make the hokages avoid dealing a killing blow) till he could see what jutsu Hiruzen was talking about. 

Before that, Hiruzen beat Shodai and Nidaime by blowing their legs off.


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## Hasan (Feb 24, 2012)

Sarutobi uses Katon: Karyū Endan. Tobirama uses Suiton: Suijinheki as a counter.

Tobirama uses Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu. Sarutobi uses Doton: Doryūheki as a counter

Hashirama uses Mokuton. Sarutobi counters it by summoning Enma.

Sarutobi engages in CQC. He places exploding tags as Hashirama kicks him.

The battle ended right there when Hiruzen successfully placed exploding tags. Toying or not, Hashirama's strength lost its meaning because Hiruzen didn't even give him a chance to go all out and killed him along with Tobirama.

Nobody goes all out in the beginning of the battle. They use weaker and inferior techniques first. As the battle progresses they use stronger and stronger techniques and eventually go all out.


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## ZE (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Sarutobi uses Katon: Karyū Endan. Tobirama uses Suiton: Suijinheki as a counter.
> 
> Tobirama uses Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu. Sarutobi uses Doton: Doryūheki as a counter
> 
> ...


Also, this.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Sarutobi uses Katon: Karyū Endan. Tobirama uses Suiton: Suijinheki as a counter.
> 
> Tobirama uses Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu. Sarutobi uses Doton: Doryūheki as a counter
> 
> ...



When have you ever heard about Top-Tiers dying from a single explosive tag or even letting someone put it on them? That's bullshit. The only reason Hiruzen was able to put those tags on them was to show the readers that Edo Tensei are invincible and can only be defeated by sealing jutsus.


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## Hasan (Feb 24, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> When have you ever heard about Top-Tiers dying from a single explosive tag or even letting someone put it on them? That's bullshit. The only reason Hiruzen was able to put those tags on them was to show the readers that Edo Tensei are invincible and can only be defeated by sealing jutsus.



Because it *happened*. Hiruzen blew their legs off with exploding tags. They would have died if it weren't for Edo Tensei.

You're underestimating basic tools. Itachi's skill with "kunai" was one of the reasons for Nagato's downfall. Had he not taken care of the shared vision, Nagato would still be rampaging.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Because it *happened*. You have the answer in your own post. They would have died if it weren't for Edo Tensei.
> 
> You're underestimating basic tools. Itachi's skill with "kunai" was one of the reasons for Nagato's downfall. Had he not taken care of the shared vision, Nagato would still be rampaging.



Again, when did any S rank shinobi died this way? 

Not letting your guard down for your enemy to put explosive tags on you is what distinguishes Top-Tiers from chuunin level shinobi. This is something that would never happen to any S-rank ninja in part 2. It's clearly a PIS. For TWO kages to be killed this way is too stupid even for part 1.


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## Vergil642 (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> You need a better excuse than that, sorry. They were both defeated. It's almost like the ones who say Madara is toying around with the five kage right now, because he's still so cocky, or Tobi has been toying around with Naruto, or Danzou was toying around with Sasuke.
> 
> A fight between high level ninja is always for real, regardless of how cocky one side of the equation may be. Got anything better? You going to tell me that Hashirama was weakened next? Wanna know who else was toying around with their opponent? Kisame toyed with Gai twice, and you see where that got him.
> 
> ...



No, that's all he needed to post. Oro using Hashirama and Tobirama very clearly and even explicitly says that he's toying with Hiruzen. He isn't even trying to kill him, he's batting him around in his paws and watching him squirm. He's slowly damaging him bit by bit, exhausting him and enjoying the show as Hiruzen desperately scrambles around trying to avoid being killed by what are paltry attacks to these guys.

Madara's toying with the Kages now, except being more powerful than Hiruzen and y'know, 5 people instead of 1, they require a little more effort. Madara's still not really exerting himself.

Hashirama>Hiruzen by feats and hype. Get over it bro.


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## Danzio (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Sarutobi uses Katon: Karyū Endan. Tobirama uses Suiton: Suijinheki as a counter.
> 
> Tobirama uses Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu. Sarutobi uses Doton: Doryūheki as a counter
> 
> ...



Exactly.

Also, a lot people don’t get that Hiruzen himself was playing possum.He willingly took the beating so he could lull them into some sort of false sense of security, which he succeded in, by catching them all with the death god Jutsu. Hiruzen was able to sense/hear where they all were even though he was completely blinded. He quickly found out that he couldn’t deal with all, in his severely weakened state, so any plans about showing off a lot of fancy techniques got thrown out the window(plus his chakra resources were limited).Nonetheless he did manage to defeat them.

Canon.


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## Hasan (Feb 24, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Again, when did any S rank shinobi died this way?
> 
> Not letting your guard down for your enemy to put explosive tags on you is what distinguishes Top-Tiers from chuunin level shinobi. This is something that would never happen to any S-rank ninja in part 2. It's clearly a PIS. For TWO kages to be killed this way is too stupid even for part 1.



Here. It just shows Hiruzen's skill with basic tools.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Here. It just shows Hiruzen's skill with basic tools.



 

10char


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## Vergil642 (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Sarutobi uses Katon: Karyū Endan. Tobirama uses Suiton: Suijinheki as a counter.
> 
> Tobirama uses Suiton: Suiryūdan no Jutsu. Sarutobi uses Doton: Doryūheki as a counter
> 
> ...



Note the utter lack of Hashirama doing any impressive Mokuton. He used it once and that's it. Yamato had *the best Mokuton feats* until Madara came along.

Hiruzen got the chance to slap explosive tags on Hashirama because Hashirama gave him that chance. Hashirama gave him that chance because Oro was toying with Hiruzen.

Get over it, Hiruzen's outclassed. It's not his fault, Kishi hasn't given him feats to support his position that's all.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Feb 24, 2012)

You know......I pray every night that, Thread Posters like these would gradually gain steps in intelligence over time.....

And every morning, they disappoint me.......


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## Hasan (Feb 24, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> 10char



It's not about "what" tool you're employing; it's about "how" you use that tool. Hiruzen showed us exactly that.

Earlier, you pointed out that top-tiers would never let their opponents put exploding tags on them. However, if one succeeds in putting the tags?it simply shows their skills in CQC. It's called "Combat Prowess"

Perhaps, this will be a more vivid example:

Kakashi was a split-second away from destroying Nagato's most powerful body, Deva Path. The only reason he survived was because Asura Path intervened. All it took was a chain to trap the Deva Path. Later, the same Path not only defeated SM Naruto but also outlasted KN6. He even trapped Naruto in Chibaku Tensei.

See the difference? It's not about "how much" you have; it's about "how to use" what you have? Kakashi nearly defeated Deva Path with a simple yet effective trick while SM and later KN6 couldn't? In the end, Naruto did defeat him but how much effort it took him compared to Kakashi?

Simple tricks used in effective manner can bring about desired results. Hiruzen did exactly that.

So, the guy who stood at the top of the world during his time?also happened to be a descendant to the great Rikudō Sennin?had a precious bloodline that was sought out by many even after his death?was defeated by a simple trick. It just shows you how good Hiruzen was.


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## Kai (Feb 24, 2012)

ZE said:


> You misunderstood what happened. Oro did indeed order the hokages to toy with Hiruzen, but that was only after Shodai used his darkness genjutsu and after Hiruzen said he was about to use a jutsu Oro didn't know. Hiruzen's words were what made Oro wait (and make the hokages avoid dealing a killing blow) till he could see what jutsu Hiruzen was talking about.


The entire existence of Shodai and Nidaime in that fight was to toy with Hiruzen, emotionally and physically. Oro thought Edo Tensei's regeneration would give him the freedom to take this at a pace of his choosing. Arrogance falls on Oro's behalf, not on either of the hokages.

No one knows what Hashirama with his mind in tact would have done when Hiruzen got close. Notice how the kages limited movements is similar to what Oro would have done himself. He _welcomes_ free hits.



			
				ZE said:
			
		

> Before that, Hiruzen beat Shodai and Nidaime by blowing their legs off.


Their personalities were erased and their actions were directly controlled. I see you use the same argument against Nagato, so why is it different treatment when hokages are involved?

Plus, Oro could afford to be reckless with his summons because of their regenerative quality... so really who cares about lackluster performance?. The aim wasn't to stomp Hiruzen in the most effective proceeding possible.


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## batman22wins (Feb 24, 2012)

Hiruzen never fought the 1st Hokage or the 2nd. He fought. Edoed under the order to y with him.  Kishi said so in the databook. Its a fact people.  They stood around and attacked one by one. Oro stood and watched. You people cliaming Oro was serious can't be sane. If he was serious why didn't all 3 of them attack him at the sametime instead of playing around. Even Hiruzen himself said he couldn't beat Oro. He already new he couldn't from the start, but Oro mindset to play around with him. Helped him win. Hiruzen never placed a tag on the real first Hokage because he wasn't in control.

If he is stronger then the 1st it means he is stronger then Madara+Kyuubi lol be serious


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> It's not about "what" tool you're employing; it's about "how" you use that tool. Hiruzen showed us exactly that.
> 
> Earlier, you pointed out that top-tiers would never let their opponents put exploding tags on them. However, if one succeeds in putting the tags—it simply shows their skills in CQC. It's called "Combat Prowess"


No  It shows absolutely nothing. That's just a plothole and you are delusional if you think that someone who is capable of fighting against the most powerful sharingan user and kyuubi is going to let himself get tagged with an explosive.

Try harder.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Naru-Ichi said:


> Eh the overall power level of the hokages doesn't really matter much to me. But I can say that I don't think a "Prime Hiruzen" (if we go by his hype) would necessarily be outclassed by Hashirama.



There we go, and that's ultimately all I'm saying. Sorry for rattling the cages. I was merely attempting to make a small point, which I more or less have at this point.

Kishi clearly intends for us to see the different Hokage not as some competition of who is the stronger ninja, but more so as the right leader for the village at the right time, who, when the village or their comrades are in the most dire of needs, will almost certainly rise to any occasion.

Tsunade did something awesome during the pain invasion, but I hope that Kishi has something big planned for her on the combat side of things. However, Kishi might very well just be content with proving once again that she is the greatest medical ninjutsu ninja of all time.



> It's not about "what" tool you're employing; it's about "how" you use that tool. Hiruzen showed us exactly that.
> 
> Earlier, you pointed out that top-tiers would never let their opponents put exploding tags on them. However, if one succeeds in putting the tags—it simply shows their skills in CQC. It's called "Combat Prowess"
> 
> ...



*Fantastic post Hasan*


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## Godaime Kazekage (Feb 24, 2012)

You're seriously arguing that Old Hiruzen > Hashirama. Are we forgetting that Oro's Edo Hashirama was mindless and totally out of character? There's also the fact that these same chapters suggested that the almighty Hiruzen knew and could use all of the jutsu in Konoha, which was obviously a lie. He's not an Uchiha, so no Sharingan techs; not a Hyuuga, so no Hyuuga techs; nor any other clan member. I take Hiruzen's hype as meaningless.

With the jutsus we've seen Madara do, how can you seriously believe that Hiruzen can stand up to Hashirama? It's not Hiruzen that's being praised to high heavens, it's Hashirama and Madara.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Kai said:


> The hokages were introduced not for power reasons but for sentimental reasons. Orochimaru and the databooks certify this.
> 
> And yes, toying with Hiruzen is pretty unwise even if you are the great Hashirama. The real Hashirama, who *acknowledged* Hiruzen's strength as his successor, wouldn't have and isn't known to pull off any stunts like that.



Indeed, the Hashirama who acknowledged Hiruzen's strength wouldn't dare underestimate what Hiruzen would be capable of. Which is why I sorta went out of my way to point out why it is that Hiruzen should be recognized for his abilities. In some ways, you can say that while a prime Hiruzen's performance might have been a whole hell of a lot more badass looking, a prime hiruzen would not even have the Fourth Hokage's jutsu in his arsenal, hence he would've fought brilliantly, but ultimately failed to defeat the First and Second Hokages.



Elder Son of the Sage said:


> So what you are saying OP is that Madara + Kyuubi < Hiruzen



You look at it the wrong way. Hashirama himself isn't even stronger than the combined power of both the Kyuubi and Madara. There's no way he could be. His winning that battle does not suggest that he is stronger than both combined. It simply says that he was strong enough to have pulled off a victory. There's a big difference. 

Naruto was not stronger than the Six Paths of Pain. He was simply strong enough to win. Naruto sure as heck isn't stronger than the Kyuubi, but Naruto won in their battle because he was strong enough to win. All that Kishi was telling us was that Hiruzen was strong enough to pull off a win over Hashirama and Tobirama. It does not mean he's stronger than the two of them combined.


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## Hasan (Feb 24, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> No  It shows absolutely nothing. That's just a plothole and you are delusional if you think that someone who is capable of fighting against the most powerful sharingan user and kyuubi is going to let himself get tagged with an explosive.
> 
> Try harder.




Kakashi countered Kubikiribōchō and Hidan's Scythe with a Kunai. He was even using it against the five Bijū.

Bee almost beheaded Kisame with a Raiton infused Pencil.

Shikamaru actually beheaded Hidan using Exploding Tags and Wires.

Shikamaru electrocuted Kakuzu using a scroll.

Itachi took care of Rinnegan's Shared Vision using Kunai.

Kakashi trapped Deva Path using a chain.

Kakashi effectively set-up a Kage Bunshin to counter Tsukuyomi. It wasn't his fault that Itachi couldn't use it at that time.

Naruto tricked Zabuza by transforming into a Fuma-shuriken.

There are many examples of using such simple techniques effectively. Hiruzen putting exploding tags on the Senju Brothers is only a testament to his skills. The CQC exchange certainly served as diversion and Hiruzen managed to put the tags on their legs.

I certainly can't force you think otherwise. However, such simple techniques are very helpful if used in an effective manner. The skill depends on the wielder.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Kakashi countered Kubikiribōchō and Hidan's Scythe with a Kunai. He was even using it against the five Bijū.
> 
> Bee almost beheaded Kisame with a Raiton infused Pencil.
> 
> ...



With the exception of Shikamaru electrocuting Kakuzu, which only happened in the anime, but not the manga, you are 100% correct. Naruto also famously fooled Pain by transforming himself into a Futon Rasenshuriken. And he help set Pain up by using the shadow shuriken technique with his rasenshuriken.

Some are so obsessed with super powerful techniques that they really do fail to see how effective even the most minor of tricks in combat can be. Hiruzen's seemingly foolish swing at two Hokages served a greater purpose. He really wanted to apply those two explosive tags. Say what you will about Hiruzen and the two hokages, but they were actively fighting to avoid or counter anything he tried against them, so for them to miss those two explosive tags is really saying something.

Perhaps if they weren't turned into mindless killing machines, they may have possibly been wise to the fact that such a trick is common in Hiruzen's fighting style, and thus managed to avoid it, but that didn't happen, and we can't know for sure if they would have ever noticed. All we do know for certain is that neither of them realized what had happened.



> this damage control is becoming a parody
> 
> Kabuto said himself his Fuda tags far surpass the ones Oro had
> 
> Hiruzen is an ant compared to Hashirama



Are we really at the point now where we are making stuff up? Orochimaru's chakra is what improved the strength of Kabuto's Edo Tensei. Orochimaru's chakra made Kabuto's Edo Tensei better, not worse. It was Orochimaru's chakra that made it possible for Kabuto to override his previous control tags. In that case, it would seem that Orochimaru possessed all that he required to make his use of Edo Tensei as strong as humanely possible.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

And also people talk about the scale of battles somehow changing from part one to part two, when in reality, it truly hasn't. Look at the Minato vs Tobi fight. That was a relatively small scale fight, but it also involved some of the most powerful and advanced techniques in the manga. However, it still didn't *look* like some traditional large scale fight between powerful ninjas. 

And with the exception of once Kisame fused with Samehada, neither was the Kisame vs Bee fight. In part one, we were more commonly seeing younger, weaker shinobi fight, so of course that would certainly lead to less epic looking battles. Orochimaru and Hiruzen's battle was contained inside of a barrier, or else the scale would have likely been even bigger. That's pretty obvious to see. I also wonder if some bother to pay attention to the first Zabuza vs Kakashi fight. Those two water techniques used were pretty huge, especially the A rank one. The three way Sannin battle had impressive scale. Another thing that gets completely overlooked, is the fact that Sarutobi could have shown many more techniques, and would have, but quickly came to the conclusion that it would all be a waste of his energy because both Hashirama and his brother were immortal. Showing another offensive technique that wouldn't get the job done would be a waste, and not very "professorlike" He even seemed to feel pretty confident that he could potentially kill Orochimaru, but realized that, too, would also be a waste, since it still doesn't take care of the two Hokages who are trying to kill him. 

For those saying that Orochimaru controlled their every move, that just isn't true. Orochimaru was holding his sword of kusanagi in one hand, and doing absolutely nothing with the other as both Hashirama and Tobirama avoided an attack from the Third's staff and then kicked him to the ground. They were capable of acting on their own, and did so the entire battle. Orochimaru simply performed the seals to give the go ahead to both Hokages to start the fight once Hiruzen used his fire technique.

People also act as if Hiruzen wasn't clearly protecting himself from their kunai attacks while he couldn't see anything. He was blocking them, and the fact that there were three of him, thanks to the two shadow clones he created, certainly helped as well. If Hiruzen wasn't blocking the attacks, he may have suffered a much more fatal injury before he had the chance to respond. And also, I'd like to make a correct about one line that I've seen constantly used in this thread. That the previous Hokages were toying around with Hiruzen. *They were not toying around with him. Orochimaru never said such a thing. I have the official Viz release right here in front of me.*

What Orochimaru said was this : "*What's the matter? Are you planning to just let your predecessors pummel you to death? Please hurry up and show me this jutsu.*
I already knew the line about them toying around with him wasn't accurate, but I just went along with it for the sake of argument.


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## αce (Feb 24, 2012)

The reason we're bashing is because this thread somehow implies a 69 year old Hiruzen would be stronger than Madara with the Kyuubi. Which is obvious bullshit.


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## Jak N Blak (Feb 24, 2012)

In Sarutobi we trust.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> The reason we're bashing is because this thread somehow implies a 69 year old Hiruzen would be stronger than Madara with the Kyuubi. Which is obvious bullshit.



Did I say a 69 Hiruzen was stronger? Nope. I'm saying that at 69 he did against Hashirama what Madara in his prime could not, which is true. That does not have to mean he was stronger. He just had an obviously, by the record books, superior performance. 

Say what you want about Hashirama's performance. Call him a joke, Call him weak. Make up some story about him being injured. The facts are still the facts. That was Senju Hashirama. He was backed up by his brother Senju Tobirama. They were both defeated by a 69 year old Third Hokage, who used the Fourth Hokage's most powerful technique to finish them off.

Kabuto himself, the same person who hyped Hashirama in this chapter, already finished saying in an earlier chapter that Hiruzen defeated the First and Second Hokages using the Fourth Hokage's technique.

You keep one thing in mind: Kabuto said that Hashirama was stronger than Madara. He never said Hashirama was stronger than Hiruzen. But that is neither here nor there. The point is that Hiruzen was strong enough to accomplish what Madara could not, even with the aide of the Kyuubi. Naruto beat the Six Paths of Pain not because he was stronger than the Six Paths of Pain, he simply won that battle because his performance and skillset and strength were enough to make it possible. Same is true for Hiruzen vs Hashirama and Tobirama.


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## Rawri (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> That was Senju Hashirama. He was backed up by his brother Senju Tobirama. They were both defeated by a 69 year old Third Hokage, who used the Fourth Hokage's most powerful technique to finish them off.



No, it was not  It was an Orochimaru controlled Hashirama and Tobirama. That makes a complete difference. A shinobi without his 'soul' is nowhere near as strong.
Hashirama and Tobirama disappeared before the start of the fight. They became puppets controlled by Orochimaru. Sort of like Sasori and the Third Kazekage.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Rawri said:


> No, it was not  It was an Orochimaru controlled Hashirama and Tobirama. That makes a complete difference. A shinobi without his 'soul' is nowhere near as strong.
> Hashirama and Tobirama disappeared before the start of the fight. They became puppets controlled by Orochimaru. Sort of like Sasori and the Third Kazekage.



Hahahahha. Sorry, I need that laugh. I really did. So they didn't have their souls now? That's what Edo Tensei does. It brings back their souls. Minato's shiki fujin is what took away their souls. Orochimaru erased their personalities, turning them into cold blooded killing machines.

If some fodder ninja were around, they would have killed many, but Hiruzen is no fodder. Orochimaru wasn't controlling them. He just activated them, and let them do their own thing. They both dodged an attack from Hiruzen's staff while Orochimaru was doing nothing more than holding his kusanagi sword in his hand. They had to obey Orochimaru, they weren't being specifically controlled by him, move by move.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Hahahahha. Sorry, I need that laugh. I really did. So they didn't have their souls now? That's what Edo Tensei does. It brings back their souls. Minato's shiki fujin is what took away their souls. Orochimaru erased their personalities, turning them into cold blooded killing machines.
> 
> If some fodder ninja were around, they would have killed many, but Hiruzen is no fodder. Orochimaru wasn't controlling them. He just activated them, and let them do their own thing. They both dodged an attack from Hiruzen's staff while Orochimaru was doing nothing more than holding his kusanagi sword in his hand. They had to obey Orochimaru, they weren't being specifically controlled by him, move by move.



I know you're intelligent from your previous posts, but you seem to become derpy when Hiruzen is brought up. Orochimaru wiped Tobirama and Hashirama's personalities completely. They were not fighting like they'd normally fight. They were COMPLETELY bound to Oro's will.

That's the difference between Oro's inferior edo and Kabuto's superior edo. Kabuto's edos can function as they would as if they were seriously fighting. Oro's edos couldn't. If Kabuto wanted to control them absolutely as Oro did, then he was free to do so as he has shown with Muu and the third Raikage.

Here

This further illustrates the difference between Oro's and Kabuto's fuda tags.


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## Rawri (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Hahahahha. Sorry, I need that laugh. I really did. So they didn't have their souls now? That's what Edo Tensei does. It brings back their souls. Minato's shiki fujin is what took away their souls. Orochimaru erased their personalities, turning them into cold blooded killing machines.
> 
> If some fodder ninja were around, they would have killed many, but Hiruzen is no fodder. Orochimaru wasn't controlling them. He just activated them, and let them do their own thing. They both dodged an attack from Hiruzen's staff while Orochimaru was doing nothing more than holding his kusanagi sword in his hand. They had to obey Orochimaru, they weren't being specifically controlled by him, move by move.




'Soul'. Personality. Whatever you want to call it. I'm not gonna argue semantics. Without it, a ninja is nowhere near as strong. Would Minato be as effective with a different personality? Or Itachi, or any other shinobi? No. Would Ino controlling Kakashi be as effective as Kakashi? No.
Hashirama and Tobirama disappeared before the start of the fight. They came back at the time of their deaths, like Nagato.

And you are wrong. Orochimaru was indeed controlling them. When Orochimaru talks, they stop. They weren't 'doing their own thing' like you claim. And to top it all off, he's toying with Hiruzen. Instead of finishing him off while in genjutsu, he's just laughing (he was waiting to see Hiruzen's jutsu like you pointed out).


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## GunX2 (Feb 24, 2012)

Hiruzen is the strongest hokage ever....its manga canon.


Haterz gonna hate


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## CA182 (Feb 24, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> I know you're intelligent from your previous posts, but you seem to become derpy when Hiruzen is brought up. Orochimaru wiped Tobirama and Hashirama's personalities completely. They were not fighting like they'd normally fight. *They were COMPLETELY bound to Oro's will.*



Usually I'd say this would have an effect on an edo's battle abilities since Oro doesn't know their full battle capabilities. But with Oro and Hashirama there is actually a very strong case that under Oro's control he is as powerful as usual.

Since of everyone in the world Oro is perhaps one of the only people who truly understood Hashirama's power and abilities.

Proven by his experimentation on yamato, danzo and the serum which nullifies Hashirama's power.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Feb 24, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Usually I'd say this would have an effect on an edo's battle abilities since Oro doesn't know their full battle capabilities. But with Oro and Hashirama there is actually a very strong case that under Oro's control he is as powerful as usual.
> 
> Since of everyone in the world Oro is perhaps one of the only people who truly understood Hashirama's power and abilities.
> 
> Proven by his experimentation on yamato, danzo and the serum which nullifies Hashirama's power.



Nope, no one can truly know a person better than that person knows themselves. There's also the fact that, maybe Hashi and Tobi have better battle awareness (possibly notice the explosive tag?). We simply we don't know because they weren't allowed to fight on their own.


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## Axccel (Feb 24, 2012)

I liked the previous posters analogy of skills with tools, especially the Kakashi vs Deva one. That is what makes Hiruzen so deadly, he does not waste any effort in in vein. In the exact same fight the simplest of tools and lower scale jutsu is enough to counter the great Suiton, Moukuton, and Infinite Darkness Jutsus.


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## Saru (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> People want to know what makes Hiruzen so special? A fact like this one makes him special.
> 
> What hype could be greater than the fact that Hiruzen way past his prime was strong enough to beat both Hashirama *and* his brother while they were in their primes? Madara tried to beat the same Hashirama that Hiruzen beat and failed. He even had the Kyuubi on his side.



*No*, you have it *all* wrong. Madara did not fight "the same Hashirama," he fought a Hashirama that was gimped and had no intention of killing (or attacking, for that matter) Hiruzen. The _intent_ of his attacks was *Orochimaru's*, not Hashirama's. This is one of the reasons why Kabuto's Edo Tensei is more efficient than Orochimaru's: it eliminates the possibility of the user interfering with the Edo Tensei victim's fighting ability.



> *Every edo kage that lost during this war was respected for their power and strength, probably with the exception of Gaara's father. All of their defeats are considered legitimate*, but somehow people want to try and act as if Hiruzen defeating Hashirama and Tobirama isn't. No matter how much people try and change the facts, part one and part two of Naruto are both one and the same story. It's obvious enough because Kishi constantly refers back to flashbacks from part one, further validating all that was showcased on part one.



That's great, but _those_ Edo Tensei were fighting with a higher state of awareness under _Kabuto_. Not Orochimaru.



> Hiruzen was extraordinarily strong, he was not stronger than Hiruzen.







> Like it or not, everytime Kishi hypes Hashirama, he also directly hypes the man who defeated him. And considering which technique got the job done, Minato is praised from the grave as well.



Meh. Hiruzen's success in that match is subjective.


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## CA182 (Feb 24, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Nope, no one can truly know a person better than that person knows themselves. There's also the fact that, maybe Hashi and Tobi have better battle awareness (possibly notice the explosive tag?). We simply we don't know because they weren't allowed to fight on their own.



I get what your saying but in relation to the point you were making I feel as if your stance as changed slightly.



> *That's the difference between Oro's inferior edo and Kabuto's superior edo. Kabuto's edos can function as they would as if they were seriously fighting. Oro's edos couldn't.* If Kabuto wanted to control them absolutely as Oro did, then he was free to do so as he has shown with Muu and the third Raikage.
> 
> [/URL]
> and it was about to be done by Itachi to Naruto:


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## Kira U. Masaki (Feb 24, 2012)

Dude the 2nd created edo and had a space time, he used neither of those in the fight, the first also did little past make the forest, they clearly did not go all out.


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## CA182 (Feb 24, 2012)

Kira U. Masaki said:


> *Dude the 2nd created edo and had a space time, he used neither of those in the fight,*



I was only talking about Hashirama and it's impossible to deny Oro studied and experimented with his powers and abilities.

So it's clearly difficult to say that Oro wouldn't know of his abilities or use them effectively. 



Kira U. Masaki said:


> the first also did little past make the forest, they clearly did not go all out.



Erm you do understand that using the pollen technique in the barrier would make it impossible for Orochimaru to dodge being hit which would explain why that wasn't used.

And before you tell me the forest he created was smaller, it was confined to the barrier



So we have no clue how large that forest would have been.

Although power inflation over the years is undeniable.


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## principito (Feb 24, 2012)

All the arguments about how Hiruzen's win is not LEGIT are very boring excuses.

He took the 2 former hokages head on with all their fancy jutsus and everything.

Those two were as controlled by Oro as much as Madara is being controlled right now by Kabuto.

Was Hiruzen Playind defense? Of course... he was fucking OLD and couldn't just spam jutsus left and right. That was just good intelligence

If a reader CAN't get that idea combined with the fact that we are reading a story where progresion in power is fundamental (and two fights in different times cant be compared without accountnig for power inflation) they should either stop reading or dont emit a stupid opinion


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 24, 2012)

Kira U. Masaki said:


> Dude the 2nd created edo and had a space time, he used neither of those in the fight, the first also did little past make the forest, they clearly did not go all out.



Again, that's an excuse. Did people make that excuse for Danzou vs Sasuke, when he wasn't able to use Shisui's Mangekyou? Even if they did, it doesn't matter. Sasuke still won.

Did people make this excuse for Pain not being able to use deva path at the start of his fight with Naruto? Yes, many did, but it still doesn't change that Naruto won that fight.

Because you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that Hashirama and Tobirama were defeated, you try to find weird justifications for how they didn't go all out. Whenever a powerful shinobi engages in a fight against a kage level opponent, they are going all out from the start. You don't play with kid's gloves against a Hokage. The argument that he wasn't serious goes out the window because he used his signature technique. 	

Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan is the First Hokage's best technique, similar to how the shadow clone technique is Naruto's best technique. Madara was about to finish Naruto, Gaara, Onoki and everybody else with that same technique, but somehow Hashirama using it against Hiruzen constitutes his not being serious? We have a manga panel where the same jutsu is being used against Madara and the Kyuubi...


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## CrazyMoronX (Feb 24, 2012)

Hashirama < Hiruzen.

Manga canon.

Canon > Hype.

Deal with it.


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## Hungry1 (Feb 24, 2012)

Although I'm a huge fan of Madara, the op has a great point and has illustrated it perfectly.


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## Time Expired (Feb 24, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Again, that's an excuse. Did people make that excuse for Danzou vs Sasuke, when he wasn't able to use Shisui's Mangekyou? Even if they did, it doesn't matter. Sasuke still won.
> 
> Did people make this excuse for Pain not being able to use deva path at the start of his fight with Naruto? Yes, many did, but it still doesn't change that Naruto won that fight.
> 
> ...



Bad analogies. Danzo's performance was unrealistic from the get-go.  He wasted a huge tactical advantage (by speaking before striking) with the first use of Izanagi.  That's something completely unrealistic and out of character for a ruthless, cut-throat killer who had no intentions of letting Sasuke live.  Your analogy with Pain is even worse.  The situation you've described is at least somewhat believable with regard to Deva as he just got done expending a tremendous amount of chakra.  

These analogies don't serve to prove your point - other unrealistic or nonsensical situations don't serve to bolster your position. Set them aside and deal with the situation at hand. The bottom line is that neither Hashirama nor Tobirama were in total control of their choices.  

Simply because Orochimaru used Hashirama's "best technique" doesn't mean Hashirama would've used it at that time, or even _as it was used_ had he been fully in control of his actions.  Further, simply because it's his signature technique doesn't necessarily mean that it was the _best choice_ for the situation.  Again - these choices weren't their choices. What's more, neither Edo Kage was invested in this fight. Hiruzen was however, and the WoF is definitely a factor as per Madara (perhaps their greatest source of strength). I would say that their teamwork should've/would've been exceptional - another strike against arguments for Hiruzen.   Bottom line: Hiruzen beat Orochimaru using other people's powers. Hiruzen took his toys away, and almost took his life.    

And Madara used Mokuton in concert with other techniques to bring the Kages down. Yeah - all the hows and whys of how Hashirama would've used his techniques and how Orochimaru used his techniques are two completely different stories. 



CA182 said:


> I get what your saying but in relation to the point you were making I feel as if your stance as changed slightly.
> 
> Kabuto specifically states that the reason he let deidara have control was that "he didn't understand or know Deidara's powers very well."
> 
> ...



Knowing of someone's ability and using it as they would are two entirely different things.  Hashirama lived in a time of continuous battle, I cannot imagine that his practiced hand (in combat and with the application of his techniques) would be the same under Orochimaru.  Many times it's not an issue of "weaker" either, but rather one of application and finesse.


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## vagnard (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah. That's why "Sarutobi Prime"(he was even younger than the age Oro stated Saru could have win) couldn't do shit against Kyuubi while Hashirama defeated him and Madara at the same time?. This logic can go both ways. 

Just admit it. Kishi retconned the strength of Hashi and Tobirama. Sarutobi is just the second weaker hokage after Tsunade. 

If Edo hokages were as strong as when they were alive why Tobirama wasn't using his time/space jutsus or Shodai his Flower Tree World that would fucked Hiruzen when he was protecting inside Enma's cage?


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## nadinkrah (Feb 24, 2012)

Kai said:


> _"Do you intend to let the former hokages kill you bit by bit _*as they toy with you?"*
> 
> _"Please, hurry up and *present that jutsu to me."*_



  /thread


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## sole (Feb 25, 2012)

principito said:


> All the arguments about how Hiruzen's win is not LEGIT are very boring excuses.
> 
> He took the 2 former hokages head on with all their fancy jutsus and everything.
> 
> Those two were as controlled by Oro as much as Madara is being controlled right now by Kabuto.



You have to be completely and utterly dense to believe this.

Just think for a second. If you removed any references to Madara and the other Edos in the war to being zombies, and remove the distinguishing physical markings that Edos have, could you tell them apart from real live human beings? 

The answer is no. The moved, acted, talked, etc like real human beings. 

Nobody would mistake the First and Second Hokages for real human beings. 

They don't talk, they don't think, hell they barely move. For the first half of the fight they didn't even move on step from their original position.


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## Malevolens (Feb 25, 2012)

OP is correct,im sure about that.
Also,id like to speak my opiion about Oros ET. 1st and 2nd were definitely NOT weakend in any way. Kabutos zombies are NOT stronger. He surpassed Oro in terms of perfecting the jutsu by adding Edos relativly free will,which allowed him to have much greater number of them active. Also,by taking away their will they dont become less powerful. Look at Nagato. He had no free will yet it took 3 of THE msot powerful shinobi + haxed overpowerd weapon just to take him down


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## BringerOfCarnage (Feb 25, 2012)

OMFG man.....
Edo Hashirama is infinitely weaker, lamer and more susceptible to getting owned than real Hashirama.

I mean  man, just 

If it were Madara then, the fight would have literally ended in 3-4 panels, with Amaterasu or something on the Edos and a genjutsu + Katana to the face to Orochimaru.

Just comparing the fights show that there are TIERS of difference between the 2.

Edo Hashirama vs Madara (prime) is like Chouji vs Minato or Lee vs Itachi....


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## Golden Circle (Feb 25, 2012)

Ah yes, another "who's greater than who thread".

[sp][/sp]


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 27, 2012)

Hasan said:


> I respect your efforts to discuss the fight but I strongly suggest to avoid derailing from the thread.



I respect your efforts and determination to troll so passionately 




> We have statements that Hirzuen > Hashirama and Kishimoto hasn't even slightly hinted that the case is otherwise. He was said to have surpassed his teachers. His fight—whatever happened—was truly impressive. He held his own against even when the odds were against him. We have a reason to believe that Old Hiruzen > Hashirama. By extension, "Prime" Hiruzen who is the subject of this thread, is stronger than his old-self by a long shot—that should make him a lot stronger than Hashirama.



Once again, he wasn't fighting real Hashirama. Both edo's were controled by Orochimaru. They were simply his puppets. Hashirama and Tobirama were simply tools in Orochimaru's hands and you know what Kishi has been saying about tools in Shinobi hands. They are only as good as the Shinobi using them.




> When we have no statements to prove otherwise, hyping Hashirama is only going to make Hiruzen look even better in comparison.



Sorry but when we are told that Hashirama's strength was comparable to Rikudou you have reasons to doubt these statements. Hiruzen was never compared to Rikudou and his power was never seen as mythical or legendary.

Yes, he was called by the same name as Rikudou but it was only natural for him to be called that way. After all, he was said to be the strongest kage of his time, meaning he also was the strongest shinobi of his time. It's only natural that he was seen as a god by the little people.


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## Hasan (Feb 27, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> I respect your efforts and determination to troll so passionately



You should have quoted my earlier post, if you were going to discuss the fight. 

Ooo...Trolling, eh? I'm not really doing that. You do realize, you were questioning facts like his title was not recognized throughout the world.

I said, tagging Hashirama was a testament to his skill...You said, only genins will fall for that. Even then, I gave examples to prove you wrong...



> Once again, he wasn't fighting real Hashirama. Both edo's were controled by Orochimaru. They were simply his puppets. Hashirama and Tobirama were simply tools in Orochimaru's hands and you know what Kishi has been saying about tools in Shinobi hands. They are only as good as the Shinobi using them.



You should read CA182's reasoning; it's very logical. Edo Hashirama was likely the representation of his Prime-self minus "Power Inflation".

I don't deny that Hashirama was a strong shinobi but Hiruzen smashing Mokuton pretty much indicates he was superior. Later, Mokuton couldn't even scratch Enma and it happens to be his signature ability.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 27, 2012)

Hasan said:


> I said, tagging Hashirama was a testament to his skill...You said, only genins will fall for that. Even then, I gave examples to prove you wrong...



Examples? When has any S-rank shinobi been tagged by anyone? It's one thing to use a kunai as a distraction and it's another thing to tag a mindless drone that isn't capable of thinking on his own or reacting properly to such actions.

Do you have any proof that Hiruzen could have succesfuly tagged real Hashirama without him noticing it? Why didn't he tag Orochimaru if he's such a pro that he can kill one of the strongest shinobi of all time with just explosive tags? 




> You should read CA182's reasoning; it's very logical.


Link me to that "ca182 reasoning". 




> Edo Hashirama was likely the representation of his Prime-self minus "Power Inflation".
> I don't deny that Hashirama was a strong shinobi but Hiruzen smashing Mokuton pretty much indicates he was superior. Later, Mokuton couldn't even scratch Enma and it happens to be his signature ability.



1)He couldn't be in his prime because Hashirama had bijuu's in his prime. Hiruzen has Enma, Hashirama has Bijuu's. 

2)How many times do I  have to tell that they were just puppets? 
 They were just standing there, doing nothing when not ordered to do anything. Instead of using both of them to kill Hiruzen, Orochimaru just used one at a time because he was torturing and playing with Hiruzen. That fight wasn't serious in any shape of form.

3) You can't say hashirama "smashed" his mokuton. Those were just tiny roots. Any decent ninja could have done the same. You don't need Enma to do that, unless, of course, you're a worthless scrub like Hiruzen.

How can you even compare it to the mokuton that almost killed 5 kages at the same time? Or the one Hashirama used to fight Madara and Kyuubi at the same time? C'mon be serious!

Hashirama was so strong that his strength was comparable to Rikudou Sennin(!!!).
Unless you are trying to say that Rikudou was a weakling I can't see how what we saw back then was in any way comparable to Rikudou. 

You can call it a plothole, power inflation or retconning but that old statement of Hiruzen being the strongest has no meaning anymore.


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## Federer (Feb 27, 2012)

Hiruzen admitted inferiority against Orochimaru. 

Orochimaru > Hiruzen > Hashirama > Madara

Itachi > Orochimaru

Madara > Itachi

Oh wait, maybe the Edo Hokage were nerfed, you know, Orochimaru simply toyed with his former master.


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## Gunners (Feb 27, 2012)

Hiruzen is underrated, people are taken in by brute force to much.


> Yeah. That's why "Sarutobi Prime"(he was even younger than the age Oro stated Saru could have win) couldn't do shit against Kyuubi while Hashirama defeated him and Madara at the same time?. This logic can go both ways.
> 
> Just admit it. Kishi retconned the strength of Hashi and Tobirama. Sarutobi is just the second weaker hokage after Tsunade.
> 
> If Edo hokages were as strong as when they were alive why Tobirama wasn't using his time/space jutsus or Shodai his Flower Tree World that would fucked Hiruzen when he was protecting inside Enma's cage?


Yamato stopped a Kyuubified Naruto whilst Orochimaru got thrown around like a rag doll and on another occasion Jiraiya had his chest blown out. 

Shodai had the tools to make work easy.


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## Yuna (Feb 27, 2012)

Federer said:


> Hiruzen admitted inferiority against Orochimaru.


*old*!Hiruzen admitted inferiority against what appears to have been a *prime*!Orochimaru.


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## Hasan (Feb 27, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Examples? When has any S-rank shinobi been tagged by anyone? It's one thing to use a kunai as a distraction and it's another thing to tag a mindless drone that isn't capable of thinking on his own or reacting properly to such actions.



Compare Kakashi vs. Deva Path to Naruto vs. Deva Path. You should understand, skill with basic tools and inferior techniques can be dangerous if used effectively in a battle. Nagato's downfall was attributed to loss of shared vision. Itachi used "Kunai" to counter it...

Forget Hashirama, did Orochimaru, an onlooker, noticed? No--he only realized after the tags exploded.

You kick your opponent and when you lower your legs, they explode. It's obvious--Even "Real" Hashirama wouldn't have noticed.



> Do you have any proof that Hiruzen could have succesfuly tagged real Hashirama without him noticing it? Why didn't he tag Orochimaru if he's such a pro that he can kill one of the strongest shinobi of all time with just explosive tags?



You do realize Orochimaru can't be killed with usual methods. I must ask you the same question, do you have proof that he "can't"?

Orochimaru explained this: "He must have put the tags when he kicked"

Hiruzen was exchanging fists with Hashirama when suddenly he kicks the old man and a second later, his legs explode. "Real" Hashirama wouldn't have noticed either. Hardly anyone will realize that; especially when it appears to them that they have just kicked their opponent.




> Link me to that "ca182 reasoning".



It's in the very thread we're discussing...

He's essentially saying that Orochimaru spent considerable amount of time studying Hashirama and his powers, it's only logical to assume he knows what Hashirama was capable of and his abilities.

The Edo Hashirama whom Hiruzen fought was pretty much close to his "Real" self--minus Power Inflation, of course.



> 1)He couldn't be in his prime because Hashirama had bijuu's in his prime. Hiruzen has Enma, Hashirama has Bijuu's.
> 
> 2)How many times do I  have to tell that they were puppets?  They were just standing there, doing nothing when not ordered to do anything. Instead of using both of them to kill Hiruzen, Orochimaru just used one at a time because he was torturing and playing with Hiruzen. That fight wasn't serious in any shape of form.
> 
> ...



*1.* Hashirama had Biju which is true but where is it stated that he used them in every single battle he ever fought. Because if that's the case, I'd put Madara above him since their every single battle ended in a stalmate [except for VoTE].

*2.* Oro came with an intent to kill. I don't deny Hiruzen was helpless when Hashirama casted the Bringer of Darkness and they could have killed him easily. Orochimaru only held back because he wanted to see the technique which Hiruzen spoke of.



takL said:


> *"Whats the matter with you (meaning 'come on')….
> Are you willing to get killed little by little by your predecessors like this?
> could you demonstrate the jutsu for me already"*



Otherwise, he was fighting pretty seriously.

*3.* Power Inflation.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 27, 2012)

3rd Hokage was called stronger and won the fight against Harishima Kishimoto is no idiot he's not gonna have Hiruzen even at old age win a fight then say he's stronger only to retcon later in the story nothing in this manga has been retconed its just how the reader interprets it and people use battle feats which is illogical because if Kishimoto redid that fight he would just give Hiruzen more feats that would substantiate the fact that he's superior to harishima


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## CA182 (Feb 27, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Link me to that "ca182 reasoning".



Anyways I assume you're asking why I consider edo Hashirama just as powerful as now?

The battle in question happened in part 1, during 2002-2003. Battles back then didn't need to be as flashy as now to look powerful. 

Example Hiruzen's earth wall here looked crazy strong as a defence back then.



But now it doesn't even look stable compared to the cheap walls created by fodder.



Just because it doesn't look as powerful to us now 9/10 years on doesn't mean it wasn't meant to be powerful or that Hashirama then was weaker.

Do you imagine if Kishi did that fight today it would look the same? Or do you think the scale of everything would be ramped up to the extreme so that everyone looked more powerful than all the other ninja in the story. (Like what happened in part 1.)

Also the argument that being a puppet under someone elses control automatically makes that person weaker doesn't make sense to me.

Look at Sasori and the third Kazekage. Sasori's method of utilizing the iron sand in conjunction with poison most likely made the third Kazekage even more deadly than he was alive.

Just like Oro's use of the all encompassing barrier along with Hashirama's large scale mokuton may have been more deadly since there's nowhere to run.

For example the kage would have just lost against madara if he tried that flower in the barrier since they can't fly away.

Plus I don't see why nobody accepts that Oro's knowledge of Hashirama's power means he couldn't use edo-Hashirama's power to near it's full potential.

*Edit - Adding another point.*

Also there's a high possibility part of this recent Hashirama hype is based from Kabuto's fairy tail/rumour statement.

However as anyone thought about the fairy tail/rumour formed? There's one potential and possibly obvious answer.

1)The Sage could subdue the Juubi.
2)Hashirama could subdue the 9 parts which once were the Juubi.

If you cannot see where the rumour would start then someone else explain.

But then this means that the sage statement is simply a reference to his ability to control bijuu, which sort of lessens the idea of his power in solo battle.


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## Reddan (Feb 27, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Anyways I assume you're asking why I consider edo Hashirama just as powerful as now?
> 
> The battle in question happened in part 1, during 2002-2003. Battles back then didn't need to be as flashy as now to look powerful.
> 
> ...



The elemental jutsu we saw in the fight were not supposed to be special. At the end of the day if Kishimoto wanted us to be impressed by how hard they were to do, he would have given them higher ranks.

However, Hiruzen makes B-rank katons and doton walls. Tobirama uses B-rank suiton.

He even had Kakashi and Zabuza capable of doing an A-rank suiton.

Whilst he introduced the S-rank Raikiri. So clearly he was not trying to impress us with that jutsu exchange.

However, what I think was supposed to stand out was Edo Tensei and the Death God. Even now these are amazing jutsu and he rightly made them S-rank.

Another underrated part of the duel was the Kusanagi sword and Enma. Enma was supposed to be adamantine, could extend and break virtually everything. I think this is very underrated. The same goes for Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword. However, SM Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage should teach us the importance of intelligence. SM Naruto with intelligence and skill took down Sandaime Raikage with an A-rank jutsu.


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## CA182 (Feb 27, 2012)

arednad said:


> The elemental jutsu we saw in the fight were not supposed to be special. At the end of the day if Kishimoto wanted us to be impressed by how hard they were to do, he would have given them higher ranks.
> 
> However, Hiruzen makes B-rank katons and doton walls. Tobirama uses B-rank suiton.
> 
> ...



Forget about rank for a minute and just look at the exchange. I think the anbu puts it best.



Back then in part 1 this was the pinaccle of how powerful things could get in a hokage battle. 

Now we sort of expect much of these things to occur in normal battles.

You even said it yourself.



> Another underrated part of the duel was the Kusanagi sword and Enma. Enma was supposed to be adamantine, could extend and break virtually everything. I think this is very underrated. The same goes for Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword.



It's not underrated, _at the time_ this seemed amazing. 
But now at a time of defences like Susanoo and jutsu like the bijuu bomb it looks obsolete.

But that's the whole point of this issue people have with the edo-hokage.  Most people view it from the perspective of part 2 which is why all this debate on how powerful they actually were arises.

(Plus there's also the issue of many people not wanting to make Orochimaru look stronger.)


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 27, 2012)

> Also the argument that being a puppet under someone elses control automatically makes that person weaker doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> Look at Sasori and the third Kazekage. Sasori's method of utilizing the iron sand in conjunction with poison most likely made the third Kazekage even more deadly than he was alive.



You can't compare the best puppeteer in the world with Orochimaru. Kages were simply tools in his hands and these tools are only as strong as shinobi who is wielding them. Kabuto and his Edo Tenseis should be more than enough proof to support this argument.

Hiruzen defeated arrogant and foolish Orochimaru, he didn't defeat kages.




CA182 said:


> Forget about rank for a minute and just look at the exchange. I think the anbu puts it best.



Anbu are fodder. Their opinion can't be taken seriosly.



> Back then in part 1 this was the pinaccle of how powerful things could get in a hokage battle.



Arednad gave you examples from the same part 1 from before and after the Hiruzen's fight where opponents were using stronger jutsus than those of Hiruzen's and kages. Sannin fight was several times more impressive and you could actually see what Orochimaru is capable when not fooling around.


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## CA182 (Feb 27, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> *You can't compare the best puppeteer in the world with Orochimaru.*



I can when the sasori case is exactly like the Orochimaru one.

Sasori = Puppeteer
Third Kazekage = Mindless Human Puppet who can wield the techniques he had when alive.

Orochimaru = Puppeteer
First hokage = Mindless Human Puppet who can wield the techniques he had when alive.

That's too much of an obvious comparison to ignore.

---

Also I'm going to have abit of fun with this quote here.



Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Kages were simply tools in his hands and *these tools are only as strong as shinobi who is wielding them.*
> 
> *Kabuto and his Edo Tenseis should be more than enough proof to support this argument.*



According to that then, edo-Nagato was only equivalent in strength to Kabuto, since that's who wielded him.

So do you reckon Kabuto by himself will require Itachi, RM Naruto and Bee to defeat?

Which means that if Itachi does fight Kabuto one on one we should fear for his life since he doesn't have Naruto and Bee here to be his distractions against Kabuto.

Also what's your take on edo-Sasori using edo-Shin as a puppet. Is shin as powerful as Kabuto or Sasori since technically he's a puppet to both of them at the same time...


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## Hazuki (Feb 27, 2012)

Rac said:


> Oro's Edo Tensei was weak



don't forget that kabuto who controled , kage , akatsuki and madara is the one who need orochimaru chakra to increased edo tensei power ..


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## CA182 (Feb 27, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Arednad gave you examples from the same part 1 from before and after the Hiruzen's fight where opponents *were using stronger jutsus* than those of Hiruzen's and kages.



Rank doesn't measure what the stronger jutsu is. Rank only ever measured the difficulty/skill level to perform a jutsu.

Kakashi even said it here.




While difficulty will generally correlate with power well, it doesn't mean rank is a measure of the power of a jutsu.


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## Mistshadow (Feb 27, 2012)

did you just try to say anbu words in that context didn't talk because he was fodder?

That's gotta be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. That is Kishimoto himself narrating the fight for us. Learn2ReadingComprehension


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 27, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Rank doesn't measure what the stronger jutsu is. Rank only ever measured the difficulty/skill level to perform a jutsu.
> 
> Kakashi even said it here.
> 
> ...



I wasn't talking about ranks. The jutsus Hiruzen and his opponents were using were chunin-jounin level. We have seen Kakashi and Sasuke using Chidori, Haku using her ice KG, Zabuza and Kakashi using their water jutsus. Neji with all his Hyuuga jutsus, Lee with gates, Gaara with his sand. 

All of these are not only of a higher rank but they're also alot more impressive and more powerful than those used by Hiruzen and kages. Not to mention that they were shown before Hiruzen's fight.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 27, 2012)

Sorry for the double post.



CA182 said:


> According to that then, edo-Nagato was only equivalent in strength to Kabuto, since that's who wielded him.



Kabuto used Nagato to the fullest. While Orochimaru failed to use 1/10 of his summoned Edo Tensei's powers.

We didn't see any s/t ninjutsu from Tobirama, we didn't see him using Edo Tensei, the jutsu he is known for, we didn't see him using his powerful water jutsus, except the one he used to counter Hiruzen's attack. I mean if you are known for having strongest water release, using one jutsu and then standing the whole fight in a corner is straight up retarded. I am not even going to start on Hashirama.

It's like summoning Kisame, using one water jutsu then not using him at all and just wait till your opponent seals him because of your stupidity. Would you dare to say Kisame lost that fight or would you say it is the fault of the one controling the Edo Tensei?

It's like summoning a rinnegan user and only using nature release instead of using haxed rinnegan jutsus. Or summoning Itachi and using fire jutsus instead of MS jutsus.

tl;dr :Tobirama and Hashirama weren't used to their full power.


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## Mistshadow (Feb 27, 2012)

you know what makes me laugh so hard elder son? that you have miserably failed in showing ANY facts, and the only thing you could have been able to provide is your interpretation and opinions.

While the logical case has lots of Facts from the AUTHOR. Mr. Kishimoto has said something, has not changed it, and thus Kishimoto is smarter than you when it comes to HIS story. 

Have fun writing your fanfic rager


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 27, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> you know what makes me laugh so hard elder son? that you have miserably failed in showing ANY facts, and the only thing you could have been able to provide is your interpretation and opinions.
> 
> While the logical case has lots of Facts from the AUTHOR. Mr. Kishimoto has said something, has not changed it, and thus Kishimoto is smarter than you when it comes to HIS story.
> 
> Have fun writing your fanfic rager


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## Mistshadow (Feb 27, 2012)

pretty sure me laughing=you butthurt


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## insane111 (Feb 27, 2012)

> - Mastered all jutsus within Konoha



Weird, I guess Hiruzen secretly had the Rinnegan. Otherwise that's impossible. 

But since we're taking all of part 1's retcons statements as indisputable fact in this thread, I guess it must be true.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 27, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> pretty sure me laughing=you butthurt



How come you rage while laughing?


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## joshhookway (Feb 27, 2012)

Just wait a few more chapters and kishi will show hiruzen


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## vagnard (Feb 27, 2012)

Gunners said:


> Hiruzen is underrated, people are taken in by brute force to much.
> 
> Yamato stopped a Kyuubified Naruto whilst Orochimaru got thrown around like a rag doll and on another occasion Jiraiya had his chest blown out.
> 
> Shodai had the tools to make work easy.



The only panel from that fight showed Hashirama fighting directly Kyuubi with Mokuton... not using a seal or controlling him. 

On the other hand Saru was getting owned by Hashirama/Tobirama who were ordered by Oro to "toy" with him. He also had to rely into a "special tool" (a self-sacrifice jutsu) to beat them and he still lost his life. 

Against Kyuubi Saru barely could take him out of the village with the help of the rest of the ninjas of Konoha. Also if Minato didn't save him he would died from a bijuu dama.


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## Gunners (Feb 28, 2012)

vagnard said:


> The only panel from that fight showed Hashirama fighting directly Kyuubi with Mokuton... not using a seal or controlling him.
> 
> On the other hand Saru was getting owned by Hashirama/Tobirama who were ordered by Oro to "toy" with him. He also had to rely into a "special tool" (a self-sacrifice jutsu) to beat them and he still lost his life.
> 
> Against Kyuubi Saru barely could take him out of the village with the help of the rest of the ninjas of Konoha. Also if Minato didn't save him he would died from a bijuu dama.


The panel shows that he has plenty of brute strength which is important but not decisive. Look at Itachi (Granted he had Susano to rely on) versus Orochimaru. He dominated Orochimaru with a kunai. 

It is pointless citing that fight, as you said Hashirama wasn't on his own he had his brother and the occasional assist from Orochimaru. On top of that Sandaime was passed his prime.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 28, 2012)

Considering Madara's entire purpose for entering the fight was to gain access to Hashirama's cells. I believe Madara's goal involved returning from the battle alive and well to incorportate those new cells.


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## JPongo (Feb 28, 2012)

^No, it was his intention to destroy Konoha but got a nice little parting gift from a better man.

Madara is sh*t w/o Hashi.

We ALL know it.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 28, 2012)

JPongo said:


> ^No, it was his intention to destroy Konoha but got a nice little parting gift from a better man.




Hiruzen became Hokage

I'll stick with the manga thanks.

I have no doubt he didn't intentionally lose, however his TRUE OBJECTIVE was to become this........



> Madara is sh*t w/o Hashi.
> 
> We ALL know it.



Madara > Your favorite character without Hashi.

He's a Uchiha after all.


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## Taijukage (Feb 28, 2012)

people have to remember 
1. the real hokages wouldnt have fought like they did. they were controlled. 
2. orochimaru's edo tensei has a weaker binding and power than kabuto.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

Taijukage said:


> *orochimaru's edo tensei has a weaker binding and power* than kabuto.



Really? I recall that Kabuto could only turn his edo tensei into mindless puppets once he used _Orochimaru's_ chakra. 
Hell Kabuto even managed to overwrite his own previous binding with the more powerful binding from Orochimaru's chakra.

That all implies that Orochimaru's edo tensei's were better bound.



> *the real hokages wouldnt have fought like they did*. they were controlled.



That's nice speculation. But can you show me any manga page which shows that when they were alive their fighting styles were different?


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## Reddan (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Forget about rank for a minute and just look at the exchange. I think the anbu puts it best.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No I actually said we saw this type of exchange between Kakashi and Zabuza before this battle. The elemental exchange between those two was at a higher level. The Sannin battle also had a far greater level of elemental manipulation. It really wasn't.

Compare anything Hiruzen did elementally to what a weak Jiraiya did.
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Or even Kakashi.
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The jutsu that stood out in the battle were Edo Tensei, Enma, Kusanagi and Death God. The skill of the users and the perfect counters they used were impressive too. However, it was not the pinnacle of what we saw in part 1.



> It's not underrated, _at the time_ this seemed amazing.
> But now at a time of defences like Susanoo and jutsu like the bijuu bomb it looks obsolete.
> 
> But that's the whole point of this issue people have with the edo-hokage.  Most people view it from the perspective of part 2 which is why all this debate on how powerful they actually were arises.
> ...


Outside the skill, the jutsu used did not seem AMAZING. Look at Kimimaro and Gaara's fight.
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Look at Temari.
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Sakon/Ukon use a summon that is almost a 1/3 of the strength required to block a Biju blast. Yes Orochimaru summoned 3, but it blocked a Biju blast. It goes to show how impressive one was.
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It is like loooking at the Sasuke/Itachi fight and trying to claim their katon jutsu was impressive. It simply was not. Just like Orochimaru vs Hiruzen other things made the fight impressive.

Overall the skill and some of the jutsu was very impressive, but the elemental jutsu was mediocre and Kishimoto did not even attempt to make it impressive.


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## Danzio (Feb 28, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> *Considering Madara's entire purpose for entering the fight was to gain access to Hashirama's cells.* I believe Madara's goal involved returning from the battle alive and well to incorportate those new cells.



That makes no sense.It was clearly a sore loser talking since he could have gotten anything he wanted *after* he defeated Hashi. We have confirmation that Hashirama indeed was stronger than Madara so why would any rational person start a potential  life threatening battle just to get some dna? It was simply a bonus after he managed to somehow survive...

Madara also had a huge ego which also supports the idea that he wanted to prove that he was the number 1 shinobi in the village.

Edit: *Nevermind, just read your next post.*.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

arednad said:


> No I actually said we saw this type of exchange between Kakashi and Zabuza before this battle. The elemental exchange between those two was at a higher level. The Sannin battle also had a far greater level of elemental manipulation. It really wasn't.
> 
> Compare anything Hiruzen did elementally to what a weak Jiraiya did.
> Link removed
> ...



Notice I said "back _then_" I'm not talking about fights which happened after chapter 118-123.

Up until that point the best we had for multiple, different elemental jutsu clashing was Haku's ice mirror vs Sasuke's fireball.

At that point in time Hiruzen vs Orochimaru felt like a pinaccle. (Just because that got surpassed later doesn't mean it wasn't true at the time.)



arednad said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's nice that every single example here is more than 80 chapters _after_ the hiruzen fight. Doesn't really counter my argument that up until that point of the manga the hiruzen fight felt on a different level.


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## Reddan (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Notice I said "back _then_" I'm not talking about fights which happened after chapter 118-123.
> 
> Up until that point the best we had for multiple, different elemental jutsu clashing was Haku's ice mirror vs Sasuke's fireball.
> 
> At that point in time Hiruzen vs Orochimaru felt like a pinaccle. (Just because that got surpassed later doesn't mean it wasn't true at the time.)


The Kakashi examples I gave you were earlier. Kakashi vs Zabuza was the only other fight we saw with elite ninjas. How can you compare genin and chunin to Hokages? 

Haku was able to reflect himself between mirrors at the speed of light. He could reflect himself fast enough to intercept Kakashi at full speed. I don't think the elemental exchange was superior to demon ice mirrors. Nor was it superior to the Kakashi exchange.


> It's nice that every single example here is more than 80 chapters _after_ the hiruzen fight. Doesn't really counter my argument that up until that point of the manga the hiruzen fight felt on a different level.


Haku's demon ice mirrors and Kakashi vs Zabuza had a greater level of elemental jutsu. We simply had not seen many top fights. I pointed out that even in part 1 the elemental exchange was just average.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

arednad said:


> The Kakashi examples I gave you were earlier. Kakashi vs Zabuza was the only other fight we saw with elite ninjas. *How can you compare genin and chunin to Hokages? *
> 
> Haku was able to reflect himself between mirrors at the speed of light. He could reflect himself fast enough to intercept Kakashi at full speed. I don't think the elemental exchange was superior to demon ice mirrors. Nor was it superior to the Kakashi exchange.
> 
> Haku's demon ice mirrors and Kakashi vs Zabuza had a greater level of elemental jutsu. We simply had not seen many top fights. I pointed out that even in part 1 the elemental exchange was just average.



That is the point though. Up until that time nearly all of the fights we had had were chunin and genin. That's why Hiruzen vs Orochimaru looked so much stronger in comparison at the time those chapters were released.


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## Reddan (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> That is the point though. Up until that time nearly all of the fights we had had were chunin and genin. That's why Hiruzen vs Orochimaru looked so much stronger in comparison at the time those chapters were released.



However, Kishimoto never intended the elemental exchange to be something special. As seen by the ranks he gave the jutsu and the scale of other attacks he showed us in part 1. People like to fling around power inflation and this is true up to a point. However, not to the extent people try and claim. Kishimoto purposely made the kage elemental exchange nothing impressive. Just like until Edo Madara and Onoki he showed us no impressive doton techniques. Apart from Mokuten Kishimoto intended and showed us that the kages elemental exchange was what any top jounin could do.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 28, 2012)

Does not really get any simpler than Orochimaru ordering the 2 Hokages to toy with them. Pretty sure Hashirama used some mokuton and a genjutsu while Tobirama used like 1-2 suitons. It does not take much thought to understand this.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

arednad said:


> However, Kishimoto never intended the elemental exchange to be something special. As seen by the ranks he gave the jutsu and the scale of other attacks he showed us in part 1. People like to fling around power inflation and this is true up to a point. However, not to the extent people try and claim. Kishimoto purposely made the kage elemental exchange nothing impressive. Just like until Edo Madara and Onoki he showed us no impressive doton techniques. *Apart from Mokuten Kishimoto intended and showed us that the kages elemental exchange was what any top jounin could do.*



Not at the time it wasn't.

How else do you explain this anbu's awe at the battle straight after the ninjutsu exchange and Hiruzen's summoning?



"This is what it means to be at the hokage level."

At the time that ninjutsu battle was something special. Now it would look pathetic but in 2002 it was very noteworthy.


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## bearzerger (Feb 28, 2012)

It's really strange how a story which is supposed to be understood by children apparently is beyond a large portion of the forum even if they are far older than the target audience. Are Edo Tensei's weaknesses that hard to spot? 
Cause it's been quite obvious to me since part one that Edo Tensei's biggest flaw is that if the zombie is forced to fight against his will they can only show a fraction of their true potential. Yes, the power of their techniques may not be diminished, but their fighting style lacks the polish which allowed them to excel when they were alive.
The unwilling zombies just don't have any motivation to fight and do nothing which isn't part of their programming and if they are directly controlled that leaves their skills in the hand of someone who isn't nearly as familiar with them as they themselves were.
That's why the only Edo Tensei who are truly equal to when they were alive are those who fight according to their own will meaning Madara and Itachi. 

This is a lesson that Kabuto and Orochimaru are unable to understand, but I thought most readers couldn't help but notice it, because Kishi is so blatant about it. If we ever see Tobirama use Edo Tensei I expect him to be aware of the weakness and only summon dead comrades who would want to aid him in battle and not force just random shinobi against their will.


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## Reddan (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Not at the time it wasn't.
> 
> How else do you explain this anbu's awe at the battle straight after the ninjutsu exchange and Hiruzen's summoning?
> 
> ...



Wait I never said the ninjutsu used wasn't special.

Edo Tensei was recently said by Kabuto to be the most powerful technique of all time.
Adamantine Enma is still very impressive today.

The elemental exchange was not impressive. Notice it was after Enma was summoned, that the ANBU made the comment. The whole fight is still impressive by todays standards. The elemental ninjutsu was not. 

Sarutobi was wielding a weapon that was harder than diamond, could extend, reach out and grab opponents and smash Mokuten to pieces. This is an incredible weapon.

Orochimaru summoned two Hokages to fight for him. The Mokuten filled the roof top. Those jutus are still impressive. 

The katon, the doton wall, the suiton were not.


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## Mistshadow (Feb 28, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> It's really strange how a story which is supposed to be understood by children apparently is beyond a large portion of the forum even if they are far older than the target audience. Are Edo Tensei's weaknesses that hard to spot?
> Cause it's been quite obvious to me since part one that Edo Tensei's biggest flaw is that if the zombie is forced to fight against his will they can only show a fraction of their true potential. Yes, the power of their techniques may not be diminished, but their fighting style lacks the polish which allowed them to excel when they were alive.
> The unwilling zombies just don't have any motivation to fight and do nothing which isn't part of their programming and if they are directly controlled that leaves their skills in the hand of someone who isn't nearly as familiar with them as they themselves were.
> That's why the only Edo Tensei who are truly equal to when they were alive are those who fight according to their own will meaning Madara and Itachi.
> ...



Link removed
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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Not at the time it wasn't.
> 
> How else do you explain this anbu's awe at the battle straight after the ninjutsu exchange and Hiruzen's summoning?
> 
> ...



We saw much more impressive fights in the next arc. Kabuto vs Naruto and the Sannin fight. It was on a whole another level. 
Even the Sasuke vs Gaara and Naruto/Gamabunta vs Gaara/Shukaku was alot more impressive. It happened in the same arc yet it was on a higher level than the so called "kage fight".


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## DoflaMihawk (Feb 28, 2012)

Even if Oro wanted to use the two Hokages to their full potential, he wouldn't know what they're fully capable of anyway.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> It's really strange how a story which is supposed to be understood by children apparently is beyond a large portion of the forum even if they are far older than the target audience. Are Edo Tensei's weaknesses that hard to spot?
> Cause it's been quite obvious to me since part one that Edo Tensei's biggest flaw is that if the zombie is forced to fight against his will they can only show a fraction of their true potential. *Yes, the power of their techniques may not be diminished, but their fighting style lacks the polish which allowed them to excel when they were alive.*
> That's why the only Edo Tensei who are truly equal to when they were alive are those who fight according to their own will meaning Madara and Itachi.



I agree with the bolded but another part of your thoughts is what I want to debate.



> Edo Tensei's biggest flaw is that *if the zombie is forced to fight against his will they can only show a fraction of their true potential.*



But do mindless edos still fight against the user?

Or does it mean that a mindless edo's power is dependant on how well the controller knows their ability and powers?

That is the true heart of the issue. Since Oro had an extreme amount of knowledge about Hashirama's powers at least. Therefore Oro may have had the potential to wield edo Hashirama's power to near his limits.

_Whether he ever managed to show that though is another issue since_:

-The enclosed space created by the violet flames barrier limits the scale of Hashirama's power on the other hand it prevents the opponent being able to flee from his techniques. 

-The controller being in close proximity to edo-Hashirama prevents hashirama from using jutsu like the world flower as the controller would be affected by it too.

But this doesn't mean edo-Hashirama is weaker, just that circumstances prevented edo-Hashirama showing his full potential.


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## Hasan (Feb 28, 2012)

Ninjutsu exchange was advanced because of the skill and proficiency, with which they were performing the techniques. The rate at which they executed and countered each other's techniques was amazing?at least, by Part I standards. Hence, the ANBU's comment makes perfect sense.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> We saw much more impressive fights in the next arc. Kabuto vs Naruto and the Sannin fight. It was on a whole another level.



So you've offered up fights that are irrelevant to counter my argument that "*UP UNTIL* the Hiruzen vs Oro fight the elemental ninjutsu battles hadn't been as impressive as their fight."



Elder Son of the Sage said:


> *Even the Sasuke vs Gaara* and Naruto/Gamabunta vs Gaara/Shukaku was alot more impressive. It happened in the same arc yet it was on a higher level than the so called "kage fight".



Really so Sasuke vs Gaara had ninjutsu of 3 different elements clashing?

If so I think I need to reread the manga.

And once again the Naruto/Gamabunta vs Gaara/Shukaku fight happened after the hiruzen vs Oro fight.

---

I don't know how to word this for others to understand my argument but this is the last time I'll try.

Imagine you're in 2002 and the manga only goes up to chapter 123.

What ninjutsu battle would look the most impressive, diverse and skillful to you?

If from the small selection up until then you choose that hokage fight like me, then you're naturally going to think that the hokage are on a different level to all the other ninja that have been shown until that point.

Aka. At the time the hokage looked more powerful then the rest of the ninja world.

Just because that fight doesn't look powerful to us now, doesn't mean that it wasn't meant to look powerful then, or that we should now consider that fight weak. 
It's simply power inflation working it's beautiful magic.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 28, 2012)

Right. Kishimoto didn't plan out fights that happened in the same arc. Makes sense


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## bearzerger (Feb 28, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> surpassed
> surpassed



And your point of those images is? Do you agree with me? Or do you disagree?



CA182 said:


> But do mindless edos still fight against the user?
> 
> Or does it mean that a mindless edo's power is dependant on how well the controller knows their ability and powers?
> 
> ...



The mindless zombies are just that mindless. No matter how much intel Oro and Kabuto may have on someone they still wouldn't be nearly as proficient with their abilities as the original. How could they be? Their thought processes are completely different and the originals had often decades of experience with their jutsu. Kabuto even remarks on this problem 
surpassed
Just like Kabuto can't fully understand Deidara he can also not fully understand Hashirama or anyone else.


Besides the concept of remote control violates one of the main rules in how Kishi defines strength. The controlled Edo Tensei lack still lack the will which allowed them to excel. Kabuto's and Oro's thoughts when controlling them can't compare to the desires and ambitions the Edos once had. Only when a shinobi fights for something larger than himself can he truly be strong. The 3rd Raikage died holding back an army for days and yet he got defeated by a Naruto clone in a few minutes. I think that disparity says it all. Not that he would have defeated Naruto, but his moves wouldn't have been as shallow and as easily read. 
Another example is how easily Nagato was defeated. Many on the forum were surprised by it, but it's just Kishi being consequent in his treatment of Edo Tensei. Nagato would have been far more aware of his own weaknesses and not presented such an easy target to Itachi.

Just look at all the Edo Tensei we have seen. Either Kishi is trolling all of them except for two or all that stuff Kishi has told us about- the will of fire and the strength people can find in their feelings- and which many readers put off as mushy drivel is really how Kishi's world is supposed to be understood. My way, I never have to whine that PNJ lead to X's defeated or say that Kishi trolled Y and I don't think the other way can do the same.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Right. Kishimoto didn't plan out fights that happened in the same arc. Makes sense



It would seem you just actively ignored the point of my last post, since I refuse to believe you didn't understand my point since you are obviously clever enough.

But here's a nice simple challenge, what chapters did the Gaara/Naruto fight happen and what chapters did the Hiruzen/Oro fight happen?

If the chapter numbers for the naruto/gaara fight are lower than the Hiruzen fight I'll accept your point.

If not once again the fight you offer up isn't contradicting my argument about fights *up until the hiruzen fight.*

I'll even make those five words larger just so nobody misses it. 

"Up until the hiruzen fight."


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## Hasan (Feb 28, 2012)

Hiruzen's last battle was very impressive back then, especially when you realize that it was Kishimoto's second big fight. He was improving on his ability and skill as an author. The scales have changed now.

Should Kishimoto re-write this battle today, it would be more intense than the fights we're currently reading. The roof on which they were fighting would probably collapse and should they escape the barrier, half [or maybe whole] of village would be levelled to the ground.

This would never change the end result, though. Hiruzen countered Mokuton, he would still counter it even if it's scaled to the current standards. He practically killed them in the early half of the battle, he would still do. 

More powerful Ninjutsu, more deadly CQC and more clever tricks would be shown in the battle. Taking Hashirama's hype in account, it would be an "honor" for a shinobi to stand before him, even for a "few seconds". Old Hiruzen held his own, he would still do. Their battle lasted for a considerable amount of time, it would still do. He defeated them, he woud still do, albeit at the cost of his life.

When discussing and comparing Part I to Part II, "Power Inflation" should always be considered.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> The mindless zombies are just that mindless. No matter how much *intel Oro and Kabuto may have had on someone* they still wouldn't be even nearly as proficient with their abilities as the original. How could they be? Their thought processes are completely different and the originals had often decades of experience with their jutsu. Kabuto even remarks on this problem
> surpassed
> *Just like Kabuto can't fully understand Deidara he can also not fully understand Hashirama or anyone else.*



...With every other edo I agree, but the Oro/Edo Hashirama situation is special because of all the experimentation Oro had done previously. 

Orochimaru's knowledge and understanding of Hashirama's power hasn't come from intel. Orochimaru experimented and studied Hashirama's power until he has been able to implant it in others and create methods to subdue it.

Even studying Orochimaru's notes was enough for Kabuto to gain enough significant knowledge of Hashirama's power to implant it into Edo-Madara.

That alone should show us just how much Orochimaru understood about mokuton.

If anyone could wield edo-Hashirama's power to near it's full extent it will be Orochimaru.

There may even be a case for Orochimaru having more knowledge of the in's and outs of Hashirama's power than even Hashirama. As I doubt Hashirama would have experimented to the extremes Orochimaru did with his own cells.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 28, 2012)

Hasan said:


> Hiruzen's last battle was very impressive back then, especially when you realize that it was Kishimoto's second big fight. He was improving on his ability and skill as an author. The scales have changed now.
> 
> Should Kishimoto re-write this battle today, it would be more intense than the fights we're currently reading. The roof on which they were fighting would probably collapse and should they escape the barrier, half [or maybe whole] of village would be levelled to the ground.
> 
> ...



You're right, nothing would change. Taking away shinobi's mind is like taking away 50% of their power. Edo Minato, Jiraya, Sasuke, Itachi, Naruto, Kabuto, Kakashi and others without their minds would lose 30-70% of their power. Naruto was called the most unpredictable ninja, it was due to his nature that he won so many fights.



CA182 said:


> ...With every other edo I agree, but the Oro/Edo Hashirama situation is special because of all the experimentation Oro had done previously.



Yet he didn't use Hashi to his full power. We didn't see any of his mountain sized mokuton jutsu. All we saw was one poor mokuton attack and one genjutsu. Is that what you call his full power? Zabuza was even more impressive than Hashirama. Power inflation has nothing to do with the fact that Orochimaru didn't use Edo Hashirama to his full potential.


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## bearzerger (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> ...With every other edo I agree, but the Oro/Edo Hashirama situation is special because of all the experimentation Oro had done previously.
> 
> Orochimaru's knowledge and understanding of Hashirama's power hasn't come from intel. Orochimaru experimented and studied Hashirama's power until he has been able to implant it in others and create methods to subdue it.
> 
> ...



What has being able to grow and implant cells into someone else to do with being able to use mokuton properly? That's like saying a doctor who can perform an in vitro insemination would be a good parent. Those two things are completely unrelated.




> If anyone could wield edo-Hashirama's power to near it's full extent it will be Orochimaru.
> 
> There may even be a case for Orochimaru having more knowledge of the in's and outs of Hashirama's power than even Hashirama. As I doubt Hashirama would have experimented to the extremes Orochimaru did with his own cells.



The reason why neither Kabuto nor Oro could ever match Hashirama's prowess with Hashirama's skills is simple. Hashirama created all those skills himself he used them for decades in battle there's no way Kabuto or Oro could ever hope to understand the thoughts Hashirama put into each jutsu when he created them. There's just no way Kabuto or Oro or anyone could be as good at using Hashirama's body as Hashirama himself.
It's different if they were doing what Madara is doing. Integrating Hashirama's skills in his own fighting style. But you are talking about Kabuto/Oro using Hashirama's own body as good as Hashirama himself did and that is just impossible.


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## Mistshadow (Feb 28, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> You're right, nothing would change. Taking away shinobi's mind is like taking away 50% of their power. Edo Minato, Jiraya, Sasuke, Itachi, Naruto, Kabuto, Kakashi and others without their minds would lose 30-70% of their power. Naruto was called the most unpredictable ninja, it was due to his nature that he won so many fights.



and THATS the point. You dont KNOW how much more power hashirama would get. You only know the power behind his attacks. You don't know how he would fight.


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## Hasan (Feb 28, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> You're right, nothing would change. Taking away shinobi's mind is like taking away 50% of their power. Edo Minato, Jiraya, Sasuke, Itachi, Naruto, Kabuto, Kakashi and others without their minds would lose 30-70% of their power. Naruto was called the most unpredictable ninja, it was due to his nature that he won so many fights.



We're discussing Hashirama. Orochimaru spent considerable amount of time studying his powers and abilities and knows the extent of his power. These aren't assumptions—these are facts. Logically, that should imply Edo Hashirama was in fact "Prime" Hashirama—or at the least, very close to. 

The only limitation was the barrier which Orochimaru had his subordinates set-up. The odds were highly in their favor—even then, Old Hiruzen did extremely well.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Yet he didn't use Hashi to his full power. We didn't see any of his mountain sized mokuton attacks. All we saw was one poor mokuton attack and one genjutsu. Is that what you call his full power? Zabuza was even more impressive than Hashirama.



Hashirama may have been at running at full power, but the battlefield itself restricted the scale of his techniques.

How can you expect mountain sized Mokuton when his Mokuton is contained to the cube created by the violet flames barrier?




bearzerger said:


> What has being able to grow and implant cells into someone else to do with being able to use mokuton properly? That's like saying a doctor who can perform an in vitro insemination would be a good parent. Those two things are completely unrelated.



...No it's not. But as you pointed out Kabuto said to Deidara that he didn't understand him and his art so he'd let him retain his mind.

However you simply can't say that for Orochimaru since all of his experimentation has a high chance of meaning Orochimaru did understand Hashirama's power.



bearzerger said:


> The reason why neither Kabuto nor Oro could ever match Hashirama's prowess with Hashirama's skills is simple. Hashirama created all those skills himself he used them for decades in battle there's no way Kabuto or Oro could ever hope to understand the thoughts Hashirama put into each jutsu when he created them. There's just no way Kabuto or Oro or anyone could be as good at using Hashirama's body as Hashirama himself.
> It's different if they were doing what Madara is doing. Integrating Hashirama's skills in his own fighting style. But you are talking about Kabuto/Oro using Hashirama's own body as good as Hashirama himself did and that is just impossible.



In using Hashirama's techniques exactly as he would when he was alive you're right, Orochimaru wouldn't do it the same as Hashirama.

But who's to say that Orochimaru's understanding and usage of Hashirama's power isn't as effective? 

Hashirama's mokuton is so powerful that generally the best method of surviving it is to dodge or flee to a safe place. 

But look at what Oro did, he prevented any escape from his mokuton by enclosing all the combatants in the violet flame barrier.

That's one very effective strategy, Hiruzen only survived that tactic because he had a suicide kinjutsu at his disposal.



Hasan said:


> We're discussing Hashirama. Orochimaru spent considerable amount of time studying his powers and abilities and knows the extent of his power. These aren't assumptions—these are facts. Logically, that should imply Edo Hashirama was in fact "Prime" Hashirama—or at the least, very close to.
> 
> *The only limitation was the barrier which Orochimaru had his subordinates set-up. *The odds were highly in their favor—even then, Old Hiruzen did extremely well.



It might be a limitation on the scale of his techniques but that barrier prevented hiruzen doing the one thing the 5 kage did last chapter. "Flee to Safety."

Which means Hashirama suddenly becomes deadly for different reasons. You can't dodge his attacks which means you have to counter them with equal jutsu or waste chakra trying to put up a defence.


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## Kai (Feb 28, 2012)

Hasan said:


> We're discussing Hashirama. Orochimaru spent considerable amount of time studying his powers and abilities and knows the extent of his power. These aren't assumptions—these are facts. Logically, that should imply Edo Hashirama was in fact "Prime" Hashirama—or at the least, very close to.
> 
> The only limitation was the barrier which Orochimaru had his subordinates set-up. The odds were highly in their favor—even then, Old Hiruzen did extremely well.


Oro could afford to play around _because_ the powers were so stacked in his favor.

It's like saying Gaara, Onoki, and Datclone "beat" EMS Madara when he knowingly had more powers to spare.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Feb 28, 2012)

Hasan said:


> We're discussing Hashirama. Orochimaru spent considerable amount of time studying his powers and abilities and knows the extent of his power. These aren't assumptions—these are facts. Logically, that should imply Edo Hashirama was in fact "Prime" Hashirama—or at the least, very close to.
> 
> The only limitation was the barrier which Orochimaru had his subordinates set-up. The odds were highly in their favor—even then, Old Hiruzen did extremely well.



Aside from the fact that Hashirama lacked Bijuu's and was about 50 or more years old, yes, he was in his prime. 

You ignored the part about shinobi personalities. You don't consider personality of the shinobi an important part of their overal strength? 
Having great power is one thing but using it proficiently is another. Nagato is a good example. Oro had great power in his hands but do to his incompetence, arrogance and stupidity he didn't use it proficiently.

Also, Orochimaru used edo kages in close range but we don't even know what fighting range they prefer.


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## Hasan (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> It might be a limitation on the scale of his techniques but that barrier prevented hiruzen doing the one thing the 5 kage did last chapter. "Flee to Safety."
> 
> Which means Hashirama suddenly becomes deadly for different reasons. You can't dodge his attacks which means you have to counter them with equal jutsu.



I remember arguing the same point in one of . Hiruzen was already "weakened" and past his "prime"?placing a barrier only limited his movement. In other words, Hiruzen could easily be cornered and finished off. The fact, they weren't able to?is only a testament to Hiruzen's ability:_ Kongōnyoi_.


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## Milliardo (Feb 28, 2012)

CA182 said:


> Hashirama may have been at running at full power, but the battlefield itself restricted the scale of his techniques.
> 
> How can you expect mountain sized Mokuton when his Mokuton is contained to the cube created by the violet flames barrier?


 most likely because at full power he would have broke the barrier?

its pretty obvious the the 1st and 2nd hokages were gimped in that fight people..


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## Kai (Feb 28, 2012)

Milliardo said:


> most likely because at full power he would have broke the barrier?
> 
> its pretty obvious the the 1st and 2nd hokages were gimped in that fight people..


Well, that or maybe Oro wouldn't break the same barrier he created to keep the fight 'contained'?

Also, Hiruzen expressed he wouldn't be able to break the barrier either.


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## felixng2008 (Feb 28, 2012)

He beat two super watered down kages with the death god. Not really impressive anymore due to power inflation. Those two Edo Tensei barely even qualify as kage level. One had suitons that weren't even as strong as Kisame's suitons. The other had a Mokuton that was barely more impressive than Yamato Mokutons and a good genjutsu (Bringer of Darkness). In fact, Nidaime Hokage had downright pathetic feats.

They were nowhere near full strength.


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## alchemy1234 (Feb 28, 2012)

Hiruzen admitted inferiority to orochimaru. Orochimaru also said hiruzen was too old and weak to beat him. So it logically follows the edo's were not at their full power at all, because if hiruzen was weaker than orochimaru at that point in time, it would have been impossible for him to beat two kages (one who was at madaras level to strength) simultaneously.

This idea of not all edo's being at their prime is further reinforced when kabuto is shown to use them. Clearly the performances of the edo's vary depending on the talisman used and several other factors.


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## Hasan (Feb 28, 2012)

Kai said:


> Oro could afford to play around _because_ the powers were so stacked in his favor.
> 
> It's like saying Gaara, Onoki, and Datclone "beat" EMS Madara when he knowingly had more powers to spare.



True—he "emotionally" tortured Hiruzen but he came to kill him. I think, he only went easy once Hashirama casted the Bringer of Darkness—he wanted to see the technique, Hiruzen spoke of. Otherwise, he was serious about killing the old man.



Elder Son of the Sage said:


> Aside from the fact that Hashirama lacked Bijuu's and was about 50 or more years old, yes, he was in his prime.
> 
> You ignored the part about shinobi personalities. You don't consider personality of the shinobi an important part of their overal strength?
> Having great power is one thing but using it proficiently is another. Nagato is a good example. Oro had great power in his hands but do to his incompetence, arrogance and stupidity he didn't use it proficiently.
> ...



Hashirama had Bijū under his control but it isn't like he used them in every single battle he ever fought. Otherwise, I'd put Madara above him since their every single battle ended in a stalemate [except for VoTE].

Edo Tensei revives the person in the condition they died. Hashirama seemed perfectly fine for a shinobi in his prime.

Removing the personality means, you remove their emotions. In reality, Hashirama would never try to kill his prized student. Using the Fuda tag, he doesn't know who Hiruzen is—he will only try to kill him.

Nagato was "clearly" Kabuto's fault since he didn't pay attention to Itachi [who took care of the shared vision] and he was focused on three opponents. Orochimaru was battling only one—Hiruzen.

Hiruzen made the first move and engaged them in CQC. Nobody would summon a Giant Meteorite if their opponent is engaging in Taijutsu—they would always try to counter-attack or just evade it. If it doesn't work, they back up a little and use Ninjutsu.

For a man who stood at the top of the world during his time and whose power is considered a fairy tale, Hashirama should be a capable fighter in a hand-to-hand combat.

A battle always "progresses". You don't simply use your trump card from a get-go. You always use inferior techniques and tactics. Then slowly proceed to higher and higher techniques, eventually using everything you have got.


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## CA182 (Feb 28, 2012)

felixng2008 said:


> He beat two super watered down kages with the death god. *Not really impressive anymore due to power inflation.* Those two Edo Tensei barely even qualify as kage level. One had suitons that weren't even as strong as Kisame's suitons. The other had a Mokuton that was barely more impressive than Yamato Mokutons and a good genjutsu (Bringer of Darkness). In fact, Nidaime Hokage had downright pathetic feats.
> 
> *They were nowhere near full strength.*



You mention power inflation and then say that.

Of course they were full strength back at the time of the fight in 2002, that's what the entire world would have said when those chapters were being released.

Just because now 8/9 years on they look weak doesn't mean that they were considered to be weak at the time of release.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 28, 2012)

The fact that we now know Orochimaru was so well versed on things related to Hashirama, it makes Hiruzen's win that much more impressive. Nobody can say Orochimaru didn't know Hashirama inside and out. 

Orochimaru only performed seals to tell them when to go on the offensive. Essentially, giving the go ahead for them to start fighting and attacking Hiruzen, and after that, it was all up to them how they went about doing so. The only other time after that where Orochimaru gave anything close to the impression that he was controlling anything, was after Hiruzen declared that he would kill Orochimaru and rectify the errors of his past immediately after experiencing his second flashback of the fight, where it showed that he probably could have killed Orochimaru many years ago if he only just had it in his heart to do so, after Orochimaru, in the present day, revealed that he had completed the forbidden Fushi Tensei technique.

In response to this, Orochimaru yelled that it was already too late, appeared to raise his hands to perform seals (his back was turned to the reader), and then both Hokages immediately made their move against Hiruzen. He wasn't controlling every specific action they took, simply when they would enter fight to kill mode. Unlike what Kabuto was shown doing this war, Orochimaru has never provided any clear cut proof that he was controlling which specific technique either Hokage used, and when, at any given moment during his fight with Hiruzen. But even if he somehow was, Orochimaru, it's now confirmed, potentially knew more about Hashirama than anybody else currently alive, possibly even more than Hashirama's own granddaughter, who is, frankly, stunned that her grandfather's dna can so flawlessly be placed into Uchiha Madara.

And everybody that's talking about Hashirama fighting with bijuus, we have never seen any proof that he can fight using bijuus. That's all fan created speculation. All we do know for certain is that he can suppress the power of bijuus. He doesn't make them obey and fight for him. He forces them to submit to him by suppressing their power, big difference. Both Madara and Hashirama's individual powers get classified as "controlling" biju, but only one of the two men has ever been shown or confirmed to be capable of controlling a biju to the point that they obeyed them *and* fought alongside them, and that's Uchiha Madara.


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## Milliardo (Feb 28, 2012)

Kai said:


> Well, that or *maybe Oro wouldn't break the same barrier he created to keep the fight 'contained'?*
> 
> Also, Hiruzen expressed he wouldn't be able to break the barrier either.



yea, thats pretty much where my line of thinking was.. 


it was already stated that hiruzen was weakend and hardly had any chakra anymore anyways. the justsu he displayed was nothing special even for part one standards.. so them going full power definitely would have crushed him.


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## Dark Uchiha (Feb 28, 2012)

i think it relies on how much control oro had on the zombies.

From the looks of it, oro was controlling all jutsu cast by said zombies, which would dictate to his will, if and when to kill sandaime.

From dialogue of those chapters he wanted to torture sandaime and even waiting on him to produce a jutsu that would end up killing his arm.

so to the thread creators topic, you are technically correct but situation and reasoning behind it is in obfuscation.


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## Yuki (Feb 28, 2012)

I personally think he was called the God of Shinobi not to imply he could beat all the other shinobi but because of how great a leader he was and that he masters every jutsu in the hidden leaf i think people have got that statement all wrong.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 28, 2012)

He was never said to have mastered every jutsu in the hidden leaf. He was said to have been a ninja who, at the time he was nicknamed the professor, knew and could perform all "*existing* *Konoha* *jutsu*".

Village specific techniques. Not necessarily every jutsu that possibly existed in the village. There's a difference, I feel. When Kisame saw Kakashi perform the water clone technique, he said that he was impressed that the copy ninja could use his village's jutsu so well. In other words, the water clone technique is a technique that identifies with and belongs to the Hidden Mist village, and, no doubt, certainly the Hidden Mist technique is a similar case.

By all existing Konoha jutsu, I think what is meant are techniques that specifically identify with the village of Konoha, not necessarily all jutsu that exist inside the village. I think this includes the shadow clone technique, I think this includes the shadow shuriken technique, i think this includes the shuriken shadow clone technique, I think this includes the multiple shadow clone technique, and a whole host of other techniques that I'm probably not too sure of. Hell, I even suspect that the jutsu Itachi used, that great clone explosion technique, is likely one such technique as well. But, hey, I'm just guessing, but this manga has certainly confirmed that the water clone technique and the hidden mist technique both belong to the village Hidden in the Mist. This is what I think was truly meant by that remark. No way someone knows how to perform every single technique in a village. It doesn't make sense. However, someone who is a master of all the village's trademark techniques? Yea, I can certainly buy that.

The viz translation makes an important distinction, I think, on this one.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 28, 2012)

alchemy1234 said:


> Hiruzen admitted inferiority to orochimaru. Orochimaru also said hiruzen was too old and weak to beat him. So it logically follows the edo's were not at their full power at all, because if hiruzen was weaker than orochimaru at that point in time, it would have been impossible for him to beat two kages (one who was at madaras level to strength) simultaneously.
> 
> This idea of not all edo's being at their prime is further reinforced when kabuto is shown to use them. Clearly the performances of the edo's vary depending on the talisman used and several other factors.



He acknowledged his likely inferiority to Orochimaru, yes. However, there is no proof that the talisman affects how strong or weak an edo tensei ninja is. That's actually made up, believe it or not. Edo Tensei returned them in their primes. They were at peak power. It should've been impossible, could've been impossible, but Hiruzen succeeded in doing it anyway. That's all that matters.

Also, Hiruzen's will of fire took over, and we already know how strong a force that is. He was made further stronger by his desire to protect the village. One other thing left out of Hiruzen's lessened performance against Orochimaru and the two hokages initially, is the fact that Hiruzen was heavily conflicted about having to fight and actually kill a student he cared so much about. It matters not what should have been, and what couldn't have happened, or what was too incomprehensible to happen, all that matters is what actually happened. Hiruzen fought the three of them by himself, and defeated Hashirama and his brother. Orochimaru, for his part, was, in fact, defeated also, but, to his credit, at least he barely escaped with his life. But I don't know how much comfort he gets from that. In fact, he got no comfort at all for quite some time.

No matter what Hiruzen thought before the fight, he would later engage Orochimaru head on in their fight, and Orochimaru simply couldn't keep up with him. Orochimaru was clearly outperformed in their most direct combat encounter of the entire fight, and clearly looked inferior to Hiruzen when it mattered the most. Orochimaru was disarmed, distracted, and discombobulated.


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## vagnard (Feb 28, 2012)

Gunners said:


> The panel shows that he has plenty of brute strength which is important but not decisive. Look at Itachi (Granted he had Susano to rely on) versus Orochimaru. He dominated Orochimaru with a kunai.



That panel shows Hashirama can deal with Kyuubi in a direct fight other than mind control. Maybe just for few moments but that is a lot better than the reactive Hiruzen who faced Kyuubi with the help of the villagers and was still ready to eat a bijuudama.  



Gunners said:


> It is pointless citing that fight, as you said Hashirama wasn't on his own he had his brother and the occasional assist from Orochimaru. On top of that Sandaime was passed his prime.



But the players weren't the same. Oro explicitely ordered the edo kages to play with Hiruzen, something that obviously wouldn't put them close to their prime. 

With the pollen Tree World Flower for example Hashirama could owned Hiruzen's Enma cage defense. Tobirama could used his S/T jutsus (that Minato compared to his own). 

It's pretty obvious at this point that Kishimoto just retconned the importance and power level of the first 2 hokages. Every chapter after part 2 we got more and more hype for Hashirama that simply wouldn't make sense for someone much weaker than 69 years old Hiruzen. 

Hiruzen himself before even knowing about Edo Tensei stated only Minato could stop Oro... so he implied he considered himself weaker than Oro even without the clones. After SM Jiraiya performance against Pain is also easy to assume that guy was also a lot stronger than Hiruzen. 

As you said Itachi owned Oro with base Sharingan yet he admitted he wasn't on the level of EMS Madara. That would be another inconsistance with Old Hiruzen's level who was portrayed to be even weaker than Itachi. 

Simply it doesn't make sense that someone like Old Hiruzen could be that strong at this point of the manga. Specially considering EMS is the main weapon of the rival of the protagonist of the manga at its final stage.


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## DeK3iDE (Feb 28, 2012)

Kai said:


> Except Oro canonically ordered the hokages to toy with Hiruzen. It is not in any hokages' character to toy with their enemies. Their actions were directly controlled.
> 
> Even by straight definition of the word they were were operating at minimum capacity.
> 
> That is how Hashirama and Tobirama were duped despite wielding their immense power.


Not to mention Hashirama didn't have his weapons scroll. Judging from the amount of time that probably passed between the VotE and his eventual death in the First Shinobi War he must have gotten considerably older. Clearly Hiruzen didn't go against the same Hashirama Madara had fought for yrs yet that's something Hiruzen's fans never want to accept. They talk as if those 2 Hashramas were the same person just to support their belief that Hiruzen was better whether he was under the full effect of ET or not smh


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## Mistshadow (Feb 28, 2012)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> Not to mention Hashirama didn't have his weapons scroll. Judging from the amount of time that probably passed between the VotE and his eventual death in the First Shinobi War he must have gotten considerably older. Clearly Hiruzen didn't go against the same Hashirama Madara had fought for yrs yet that's something Hiruzen's fans never want to accept. They talk as if those 2 Hashramas were the same person just to support their belief that Hiruzen was better whether he was under the full effect of ET or not smh



Zomg u mean that may not have been the normal hashirama?
Kinda like that was not the normal hiruzen?

You can't have it one way you like then switch it up to suit your purposes.


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## CA182 (Feb 29, 2012)

I've only got two points of contention with your post.



vagnard said:


> With the pollen Tree World Flower for example Hashirama could owned Hiruzen's Enma cage defense.



No he couldn't since the world tree flower would have knocked out Orochimaru as well. And Orochimaru clearly wanted to be concious at the point of Hiruzen's death.



vagnard said:


> Tobirama could used his S/T jutsus (that Minato compared to his own).



We don't yet know what his s/t techniques are though. For all we know it could be a non battle orientated s/t technique.


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 29, 2012)

Missing_Nin said:


> old man 3rd hokage = 7 kage level minimum. Imagine him in his prime.  I would say he's 13 kage level like naruto or maybe even more.



There's a limit to trolling dude. Meaningless post.

On-Topic:

I agree with the OP.
Hasirama was a god ninja in his time alone. That's why Madara keeps saying such things about Hashirama, because he doesn't know about any of the ninjas past his generation.

Hiruzen is an example. Now making up excuses for Hashirama AND Tobirama's loss is stupid. They were even stronger in Edo Tensei then they were in their prime.

They were basically in their prime with stamina/chakra that never decreases and were immortal. Orochimaru was not controlling their moves, Orochimaru just tagged them with seals to make them THEIR PETS!!! The moves, everything else were Hashirama's and Tobirama's own will.

Hiruzen has surpassed Hashirama and Tobirama. The fact that he past his prime could seal them both while in Edo Tensei and with Orochimaru there speaks volumes, and also the fact that he is called the god of shinobi and that he was the strongest Kage of all time until his generation wich include Hashirama, Tobirama, Muu, Oonoki, 3rd Raikage, Trollkage ... 

Hashirama was the strongest ninja of his time and had the two most unique abilities as well, healing himself without using seals and using mokuton ninjutsu that also allows him also to control the tailed beasts even better than the sharingan. Not the strongest ninja in history appart from Rikudou Sennin...

Hiruzen and Minato can't handle the Kyuubi like Hashirama only and only because they do not have techniques to control it. Hashirama has.
And that does not mean that he's stronger than these two just because he can control the tailed beasts. He still can't control humans.


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## kluang (Feb 29, 2012)

Grimm6jack said:


> There's a limit to trolling dude. Meaningless post.
> 
> On-Topic:
> 
> ...



Let me ask you? what did hashirama and tobirama do during their battle against hiruzen. what are orochimaru orders? Is it to kill hiruzen or just capture and immobilize hiruzen. His order is to capture and immobilize hiruzen which they did. And after that they did what? Cast a genjutsu throw kunais and got seal. 

Say what you like, the truth is Hashirama> every single kage. 

*FAKTZ*


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## Yuki (Mar 1, 2012)

I think i understand what SageNaturalEnergyBunshin is trying to say i my self think the 1st could beat the 3rd in his prime but yes the 3rd did beat the 1st and 2nd in a fight when he was clearly past his peak but cost him his life in the process peak 3rd did not no that jutsu so the 1st would win without losing his own life if the 3rd was in his peak.

Sorry if you can't understand i just cannot be botherd to do everything properly so i speeded through it.


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## epyoncloud (Mar 1, 2012)

Kishi is inconsistent, deal with it. 

Like dragonball power rankings, they don't make sense.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Mar 1, 2012)

Lets put it this way.

Hiruzen, Hashirama and Tobirama was gimped. So this is what happened....

Orochimaru + Gimped Hashirama + Gimped Tobirama VS Gimped Hiruzen

The winner was Hiruzen!!!!


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## WinPiece777 (Mar 1, 2012)

Kishimoto said that Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage so far.


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## CrazyMoronX (Mar 1, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> He was never said to have mastered every jutsu in the hidden leaf. He was said to have been a ninja who, at the time he was nicknamed the professor, knew and could perform all "*existing* *Konoha* *jutsu*".


Yeah.

That includes all of Hashirama's jutsu, Tobirama's space/time jutsu, and even Edo Tensei itself.

Face it: Hiruzen takes a big, smelly dump all over Hashiarama in every category. His stats are maxed out; he knows every jutsu in Konoha; he has the most powerful summon; he beat up Tobirama and Hashirama and Orochimaru all at the same time as an old-ass man; he was kage TWICE because nobody was better than him after Minato died even in his old age.

You can fanwank Hashirama all you want to, but Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage that has ever lived. Manga canon.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Mar 1, 2012)

Gilgamesh said:


> Dude seriously enough with the damage control, it's been shown time after time that Shodai>>>Sarutobi
> 
> Sarutobi is the most overrated character in the manga apart from Minato and Itachi



This. And besides those first two edo were not the same as the edo from this war in the sense that they were completly controlled. They were not making their own decisions in battle nor were they using their strongest techniques, which quite frankly probably weren't even thought of at the time.


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## Yuki (Mar 1, 2012)

How on earth dose the 3rd have the most powerful summon? this is not cannon we no for a fact the 9 tails was a summon for madara so no that ugly old ape is not the most powerful summon.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Mar 1, 2012)

LeeB123 said:


> How on earth dose the 3rd have the most powerful summon? this is not cannon we no for a fact the 9 tails was a summon for madara so no that ugly old ape is not the most powerful summon.


Let's not forget Gedo Mazo or Pain's Cerberus summoning. Both are easily stronger than Enma.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 1, 2012)

1st Hokage >>>>> 3rd Hokage
Oro's technique wasnt even half mastered back then, now Kabutomaru made the edo technique perfect.


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## thiagocampos (Mar 2, 2012)

This may sound stupid but I think the only reason why Hiruzen defeated both the kages was because at that point Kishi hadn't planned out to make The first hokage a legendary being as he is making him now.

 So it could either mean Hiruzen was indeed stronger than him or it could mean that at that point in the manga Hashirama was nothing more than a "filler" character whose importance didn't matter at all, hence kishi trolled both him and the second hokage. Which at the present time he does a LOT.

Not that I care who is stronger or not, just stating some of my thoughts.


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