# Strongest SN Luffy, Zoro and Sanji can beat, individually



## Pirao (Mar 5, 2015)

Everyone post-TS of course.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 5, 2015)

Hard to tell when we haven't seen the Supernova fighting. 

*Zoro:* I guess pretty much anyone that Luffy can beat, pending on his showing against Doflamingo. Against Luffy himself, it can go either way. It seems like Oda is going again for the portrail of Zoro as being Luffy's equal. The only ones I'm kind of certain that he can't beat are Kid and Law, since magnetic powers can ruin a swordsman's day, and Law should be able to remove Zoro's swords.

*Sanji:* I guess he can win comfortably against the weaker Supernova like Capone and Bonny. Urouge would be one of them, and Sanji could win comfortably too as long as he doesn't specialize in _busoshoku_, and that's a big possibility given his character design. Killer doesn't give me the same vibe as Zoro (as in being an atypical crewmember in regards to power), so the same goes for him as for Urouge. I'm willing to bet on Sanji against Apoo too.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Zoro could potentially beat any of the Supernovas except for Kid, who is a dread match-up. He'd likely lose more often than not to Law as things currently stand and I don't know for sure how he matches up to Drake and Hawkins. The rest I'd give him the advantage against, though he might need knowledge on some.

Sanji probably has a chance to beat any below the top 5 plus outsider Apoo.


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## MrWano (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy - Drake, loses to Law and Kid

Zoro - Killer and maybe/probably(?) Apoo, loses to the top 5

Sanji - Capone and maybe Urouge, loses to Killer and those above

Might be giving the SN too much credit here, but Id rather be optimistic in regards to their strength.


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## Pirao (Mar 5, 2015)

MrWano said:


> Luffy - Drake, *loses to Law *and Kid
> 
> Zoro - Killer and maybe/probably(?) Apoo, loses to the top 5
> 
> ...



Some people are still at it with this nonsense?


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## Roronoa Zoro (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy - Law

Zoro - Drake

Sanji - Urouge

Edit:

Luffy - Kid


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## Bernkastel (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy would lose to Kidd and could go either way with Law.The rest he can win.

Zoro loses to Kidd,Luffy,Law for sure.Could go either way with Hawkins and Drake.The rest he beats.

Sanji would lose to Kidd,Law,Luffy,Hawkins,Drake.The rest he beats.


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## Beckman (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy -> Luffy
Zoro -> Zoro
Sanji -> Bonney/Capone; would lose to Urouge/Killer/Apoo


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## Amol (Mar 5, 2015)

The SN against whom they looses:
Luffy : None(I have to see Kid first before giving him win ).
Zoro : Luffy, Law, Kid for 100% sure.
Possibly Drake and Hawkins .
Sanji : Luffy, Law, Kid , Drake , Zoro,Hawkins, Apoo for sure .
Idk about rest .


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## Vengeance (Mar 5, 2015)

To start off with, I don't view most Supernovas as strong as probably most of you, except the M3 members (Law, Kid).

Luffy: He should be able to beat anyone.
Zoro: Should be able to beat anyone except probably Law and Kid, thus Drake imo. 
Sanji:  Should comfortably beat Capone and Bonny and probably also beat Killer and Urouge imo. Not sure about Apoo and Hawkins, but I don't see him beating Drake.


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## Pirao (Mar 5, 2015)

Looks like that ugly Law>Luffy discussion has finally died out for the most part, good sh*t


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## Dunno (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy - Beats Apoo, Drake, Hawkins, Urouge, Capone, Killer and Bonney.
Zoro - Beats Luffy, Apoo, Drake, Hawkins, Urouge, Capone, Killer, Bonney and maybe Law.
Sanji - Beats Urouge, Capone and Bonney.


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## Tenma (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy- All
Zoro- Killer/Hawkins. Maybe Drake
Sanji- Urouge


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## Raid3r2010 (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy - X-Drake or Law w/ extreme loses to Kidd

Zoro - Killer/Hawkins ties with X-drake

Sanji - Urouge/Apoo


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy: He should be able to beat anyone.
Zoro: Should be able to beat anyone except Kid due to his df
Sanji: Anyone out of top 7


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy - Law
Zoro - Maybe Hawkins
Sanji - Anyone below top5, and Apoo from what we know. Likely Killer as well


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## Freechoice (Mar 5, 2015)

Guys, Capone is dead


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## Magentabeard (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy - Kidd
Zoro - Could go either way with Law, so Drake.
Sanji - Urouge


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## Luke (Mar 5, 2015)

1. Drake
2. Kid
3. Luffy
4. Law
5. Zoro
6. Urouge
7. Hawkins
8. Killer
9. Sanji
10. Apoo
11. Bonney
12. Capone


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## Gohara (Mar 5, 2015)

Sanji- Bonney.

Zoro- Either Kid or Law.

Luffy- Zoro/Kid.


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## MYJC (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy - Any of them, he's probably the strongest Supernova by a small margin
Zoro - Loses for sure to Luffy and Kidd, maybe loses to Law, should be able to beat the rest
Sanji - Loses to Luffy, Law, Kidd, Zoro, and Drake for sure. Probably loses to Hawkins. Not sure about the rest.


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## Empathy (Mar 5, 2015)

I'd give Luffy the edge over Kid and Law (and all the others). Zoro would definitely lose to Luffy and Kid, but with his most recent feats against Pica, I'm warming up to considering him beating Law. Although Vergo has superior _Haki_ to Pica, Zoro nearly replicated the scale of Law's best feat and attack, and he did it without using his own very best attack (though it is up there). It also speaks to the strength of Pica's _Haki_, that Zoro would need one of his highest end moves similar to what he used on the statue, in order to circumvent Pica's _Haki_. 

It makes me wonder what Zoro would be able to accomplish with _Asura_ against Law, since _Sanzen Sekai_ nearly replicated Law's best feat without his room. For sure, I'd say Zoro could beat Hawkins. He might be able to beat Drake, but maybe not. His standing compared to Luffy and future at the end of the manga definitely support only Luffy, Kid, and Law possibly being stronger in the end (not Drake). I'd still give a slight edge to Law over Zoro. Sanji might have a chance with Hawkins too, but if not then Apoo. Killer at the lowest, for sure.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 5, 2015)

I think that the strongest 5 SNs imo are

1) Eustass Kid
2) Monkey D. Luffy
3) Trafalgar Law
4) Roronoa Zoro
5) X Drake

So, Luffy can beat Law.

Zoro beats Drake.

Sanji beats Apoo.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy seems poised to prove stronger than Law this arc, plus even as dense as Luffy can be some times he should have a good understanding of Law's capabilities at this point, so I think Law just makes sense here. 

As for Zoro and Sanji I don't think we know enough yet. I'll wait to see how close Luffy and Zoro/Sanji are in strength, because based on how the paradigm worked throughout Part I, Luffy could be a fair amount stronger than Zoro/Sanji, or he could be close to them. If the latter is true they might also have a chance at Law, if the former is true were looking more at someone like Apoo. I say Apoo because I think he's confirmed weaker than Law, while i'm not quite sure what to make of Drake and Hawkins.


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## Nox (Mar 8, 2015)

1. Luffy
2. Kidd
3. Law
4. Drake
5. Hawkins
6. Zoro
7. Apoo
8. Killer
9. Sanji
10. Urouge
11. Capone
12. Bonney


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## Dr. White (Mar 8, 2015)

I'll assume each M3 is performing at their best with plot turned off.

Sanji could probably at max take out Apoo. He's last on the list of notable fighter captiains in the SN, next to Urogue. It'd be an extreme diff fight but I can see him beating Bonney, Urogue, Capone, and Apoo. His COO and aerial game plus natural intelligence should allow him to work around Apoo's hax allowing him to win. Remember this is the same guy who survived fighting a fishman underwater.

Zoro at max can right now could probably beat Drake or Hawkins. Him vs Drake would be a beast fight, and I probably see Drake winning more time than not as of right this instance, but at max potential assuming Zoro is at A+ Game, I could see him putting down the T Rex with extreme difficulty. Hawkins is a bit more of a stretch IMO, he's the one person who can beat Zoro's tankiness with his own, and has hax for offensive power, plus decent swordsmanship. So I'd say he has less of a chance but still overall possible.

I personally view the M3 as such:
Law > Luffy > Kidd > Law.
Law vs Luffy ends up with Law outsmarting Luffy, and being able to survive long enough to implement his plan. The Ope Ope no mi is a great counter to Luffy's brawler type fighting. 

Law vs Kidd
Kidd isn't as simple minded as Luffy, and his powers don't really rely on his physical output as much as Luffy. I see this being enough of a mitigator to the Ope Ope no Mi that it would allow, Kid to overwhelm and beat Law with extreme diff, Magneto style.

Kid vs Luffy
Kid is smarter than Luffy, but he is still very prideful. Where as with Law he'll have to be on his guard, while still going balls to the walls, I can see Kid getting caught into Luffy's pace, in which they just swing for the fences at eachother. We all know what happens when you take in close vs Luffy, no matter if your can split islands, Use secret Martial arts, are a Shark, or a Shichibukai. In an epic fight, Luffy takes him out with his strongest move. 

But yeah that's pretty much where i stand in regards to the M3 and SN power level wise.


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## Pirao (Aug 4, 2015)

So, do you people still consider Zoro above Hawkins and Apoo, considering all that has happened lately? If so, even with 4 SNs to Luffy-Law's alliance 3, that would make Luffy's alliance incredibly strong.


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## barreltheif (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy can beat any SN, though Kid and maybe Law and Hawkins have some potential to outlast G4 and beat him.
I guess Luffy is an awkward position where his best is the best of the SNs, but he also has the potential to lose to weaker people if he fails to beat them before G4 ends. Drake is also an unknown; he might be as strong as Luffy.

Zoro can beat Law, but Law can also beat him. It's pretty 50/50. Zoro loses to Luffy, and definitely loses to Kid. Drake again is an unknown. Zoro beats the others.

Sanji can beat Capone and Bonney, and probably Urouge. Apoo and Hawkins are possibilities, but he'll most likely lose. The others definitely beat him.


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## Pirao (Aug 4, 2015)

With currently supposed power levels, if the 2 alliances were to face each other:

Luffy and Kidd cancel each other out, Law>Hawkins/Apoo, Zoro>Hawkins/Apoo, Sanji can at least tie up Killer for a long time. It's quite impressive that Luffy's alliance sounds stronger on paper even though it's formed by only 2 SN captains instead of 3.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy stalemates with Law and Kidd, wins against the rest.

Zoro loses against Luffy, Law, Kidd, stalemates with Drake and Hawkins, wins against the rest.

Sanji loses against Luffy, Law, Kidd, Zoro, Drake and Hawkins, stalemates with Apoo and Killer, wins against the rest.


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## TheWiggian (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy beats all.
Zoro probably only loses to Kidd and Drake.
Sanji only beats Capone and Bonney, i don't see him beating the mighty Urouge.


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## Freechoice (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy = Kidd > Law > Drake > Hawkins > Apoo > Zoro >= Killer > the rest


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## Canute87 (Aug 4, 2015)

lol said:


> Guys, Capone is dead



Welcome to 2015 ,

we have known this for decades.


Anyway strongest person Zoro can beat is capone.

Strongest SN sanji can beat is no one.


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## Amol (Aug 4, 2015)

Amol said:


> The SN against whom they looses:
> Luffy : None(I have to see Kid first before giving him win ).
> Zoro : Luffy, Law, Kid for 100% sure.
> Possibly Drake and Hawkins .
> ...



I will still go with this .
Luffy has proved himself to be Strongest SN.
As I said before I need to see Kid before giving him benefit of doubt over Luffy. People did same shit with Law without even giving Luffy chance to prove himself.
I still maintain that Zoro loses to SN M3 with possibilities of Drake and Hawkins.
Sanji has no chance against SN who are in both alliances and Drake.


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## Coruscation (Aug 4, 2015)

Pirao said:


> So, do you people still consider Zoro above Hawkins and Apoo, considering all that has happened lately? If so, even with 4 SNs to Luffy-Law's alliance 3, that would make Luffy's alliance incredibly strong.



Apoo- yes, but Apoo is hax, he can situationally be more useful than Zoro's plain power romp, but I still bet on Zoro in straight up fighting power.

Hawkins- said before I'm not sure on this one, but them being around the same level of power makes sense. I still consider the highlighted top 5 SN the strongest captains while Zoro in his unique position is right there too IMO.

The two alliances seem basically equal to me. Among the top guys it's basically 4v4 (Sanji included) with Sanji probably being the weakest and Luffy probably being the strongest, which makes it relatively even. Then we have the rest of the crews where Luffy's is basically certain to be the strongest in terms of quality, but the other guys have 3 crews instead of 2 to help make up for it. Overall it's hard to call which is stronger but even if it goes a little bit to either side's favor that's perfectly fine regardless of which side it is.


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## Arkash (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy - Zoro
Zoro - Luffy
Sanji - Apoo


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## Pirao (Aug 4, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Apoo- yes, but Apoo is hax, he can situationally be more useful than Zoro's plain power romp, but I still bet on Zoro in straight up fighting power.
> 
> Hawkins- said before I'm not sure on this one, but them being around the same level of power makes sense. I still consider the highlighted top 5 SN the strongest captains while Zoro in his unique position is right there too IMO.
> 
> *The two alliances seem basically equal to me.* Among the top guys it's basically 4v4 (Sanji included) with Sanji probably being the weakest and Luffy probably being the strongest, which makes it relatively even. Then we have the rest of the crews where Luffy's is basically certain to be the strongest in terms of quality, but the other guys have 3 crews instead of 2 to help make up for it. Overall it's hard to call which is stronger but even if it goes a little bit to either side's favor that's perfectly fine regardless of which side it is.



Yes, but the thing is, Luffy's alliance only contains 2 captains (and respective crews), while the other one contains 3, and yet they are equal. 

Just goes to show how OP Luffy's crew is compared to the others.


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## Coruscation (Aug 4, 2015)

Of course it is, Luffy's greatest strength is his ability to make allies and get his crew to trust him absolutely, the fact that someone like Zoro is actually willing to serve underneath him has been portrayed as something absolutely amazing throughout the whole series, so that makes perfect sense.


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## Extravlad (Aug 4, 2015)

People still think Luffy would loses to Law after Dressrosa


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## Ghost (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy beats all of them. Zoro loses to Luffy, Kidd and Law (with Law can go either way probably). Sanji loses to Luffy, Kidd, Law, Zoro, Drake and Hawkins.


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## King plasma (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy: All of them
Zoro: All but Luffy, Kid,and Law. Drake and Hawkins are probably just as strong as him.
Sanji: I have no idea


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## The Dark Flame (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy: The strongest so he beats them all bar Kid until we see more from to know his actual place in this.
Zoro: Killer and probably Apoo, isn't beating the top 5
Sanji: Maybe beats Killer and the like, but not the top 5, Apoo or Bonney.


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## Kaiser (Aug 4, 2015)

- I think only Kid may be as strong if not stronger than Luffy, but until proven otherwise, i'd say he is stronger and thus stronger than any other SN

- I think Zoro is weaker than Kid and Luffy for sure. Around as strong as Law, stronger than the rest

- I think Sanji is stronger than Capone, Urouge and Bonney, maybe as strong as Killer(doubtful), weaker than the rest


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## savior2005 (Aug 4, 2015)

An all out luffy should beat all of them. nothing implies kidd is higher, except bounty which KIdd has due to him killing civilians. imagine luffys bounty if he went around killing ppl.
zoro would prolly lose to kidd and luffy, and be more or less equal to law.
sanji loses to all prolly. the guy is a joke. a leg kicking specialist getting his leg broken by vergo lol.


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## Yuki (Aug 4, 2015)

Luffy - Law
Zoro - Hawkins
Sanji - None


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## Pirao (Aug 4, 2015)

The Dark Flame said:


> Luffy: The strongest so he beats them all bar Kid until we see more from to know his actual place in this.
> Zoro: Killer and probably Apoo, *isn't beating the top 5*
> Sanji: Maybe beats Killer and the like, but not the top 5, Apoo or Bonney.



Why not? Zoro will be top 5 in the world EoS for sure, so either he's already stronger than most supernovas or you think his growth rate will be better than theirs.


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## Gohara (Aug 4, 2015)

Pirao said:


> So, do you people still consider Zoro above Hawkins and Apoo, considering all that has happened lately? If so, even with 4 SNs to Luffy-Law's alliance 3, that would make Luffy's alliance incredibly strong.



I do.  Zoro isn't much weaker than Luffy, who should be significantly more powerful than any Supernova Captain other than Kid.  So Zoro should be more powerful than any Supernova Captain other than Kid and maybe Law, IMO.  I agree that Luffy's and Law's alliance is more powerful than Kid's, Hawkins', and Apoo's alliance.  Luffy/Zoro/Law combined are more powerful than Kid/Hawkins/Apoo combined, and arguably by a significant amount.  There are also more highlighted members between Luffy's and Law's crews than Kid's, Hawkins', and Apoo's crews.


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## tanman (Aug 4, 2015)

Kid
Luffy
Law
Killer (possibly Urouge, Hawkins, Drake)
Zoro 
??? (possibly Urouge, Hawkins, Drake, Apoo)
Sanji
Capone/Bonney/(Apoo possibly)


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## SsjAzn (Aug 5, 2015)

Luffy - Law/Kid
Zoro - Apoo/Hawkins or Killer
Sanji - Bonney or Capone


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 5, 2015)

Zoro is tied with Luffy as the strongest 2 supernovas

Kid and Law are a notch below them

Sanji is level with the rest


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## Lawliet (Aug 5, 2015)

Luffy beats all of them right now. Kid might be the only one who can beat him. 
Zoro beats all of them except Luffy and maybe Kid. 
Sanji beats Capone and Bonny. I think he loses to the rest but he's getting stronger soon enough to beat all except Luffy, Zoro Kid and Law.


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## maupp (Aug 10, 2015)

savior2005 said:


> An all out luffy should beat all of them. nothing implies kidd is higher, except bounty which KIdd has due to him killing civilians. imagine luffys bounty if he went around killing ppl.
> zoro would prolly lose to kidd and luffy, and be more or less equal to law.
> sanji loses to all prolly. the guy is a joke. a leg kicking specialist getting his leg broken by vergo lol.



This is pretty much the way I see it. Though I'd tend to disagree with the Kidd part, I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt w/o any substantial feats or hypes to go along with. Pre skip amongst the captain he was hyped as 1 of the top 3 captain along with Luffy and Law and it turned out that Luffy is stronger than Law. What's to say Kidd is closer to Law than Luffy? So until shown otherwise I'll stick him around Law and Zoro

So Luffy beats everyone
Zoro tangoes around Law and kidd(this one still has the chance to prove otherwise when he shows feats or even if he get some further hypes post dating those from Shaobody)
And Sanji, well at this point he isn't beating any SP. Well maybe Capone but still doubtful


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 10, 2015)

Pirao said:


> With currently supposed power levels, if the 2 alliances were to face each other:
> 
> Luffy and Kidd cancel each other out, Law>Hawkins/Apoo, Zoro>Hawkins/Apoo, Sanji can at least tie up Killer for a long time. It's quite impressive that Luffy's alliance sounds stronger on paper even though it's formed by only 2 SN captains instead of 3.



viz why they're going to be crushed and made an example out of


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 10, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Looks like that ugly Law>Luffy discussion has finally died out for the most part, good sh*t



It was valid before gear 4. Now they seem about equal. Still, Luffy _can_ beat him. But the same goes for the other way around.


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## Green Monkey (Aug 10, 2015)

Damn the lifelong OL tradition of putting anyone who  could be stronger than Luffy as stronger even if they have no feats continues. Could Kidd be stronger? Yes, but why in the fuck would anyone think he is after Dressrosa...I'm guessing people also think Kidd>>Law now despite that not being the consensus what so ever before this arc.


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## Dellinger (Aug 10, 2015)

Luffy is stronger than any other supernova.

The strongest Zoro can beat is Killer.

Sanji beats Bege.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 10, 2015)

As of now I don't think Sanji can beat any of the supernovas with his current showing.
The same could be said for Zoro it's actually possible his the weakest SNs but I highly doubt that he should at best imo be stronger than everyone bar the top 5 until they show what they can do.Luffy could Potentially be the strongest but I think Kid and X Drake are stronger.


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## Grimm6Jack (Aug 10, 2015)

Beckman said:


> Luffy -> Luffy
> *Zoro -> Zoro*
> Sanji -> Bonney/Capone; *would lose to Urouge/Killer/*Apoo





Dunno said:


> *Luffy - Beats Apoo, Drake, Hawkins, Urouge, Capone, Killer and Bonney.
> Zoro - Beats Luffy, Apoo, Drake, Hawkins, Urouge, Capone, Killer, Bonney and maybe Law.
> Sanji - Beats Urouge, Capone and Bonney*.





Tenma said:


> Luffy- All
> Zoro- Killer/Hawkins. Maybe Drake
> *Sanji- Urouge*







These guys can't be serious... How can Sanji be so underrated when he's portrayed to be near Zoro's level? And yet Zoro is so wanked? *I can't even believe there exists a creature who states that Zoro can beat Luffy*.


Anyway...



Corazon said:


> I think that the strongest 5 SNs imo are
> 
> 1) Eustass Kid
> 2) Monkey D. Luffy
> ...



Pretty much this, I think Apoo is the 6th strongest Supernova, really close to Drake, so yeah.

What I don't agree with is with Luffy being below Kidd. Kidd would have to be on a level massively above any other Supernova and he just isn't depicted to be that way at all, he's depicted as one of the strongests pretty much like Law, but Luffy in Gear 4th was punking Doflamingo who was easily defeating Law...

G4 Luffy is just an abomination, the exception of the Supernovas in the powerscalling. 
Outside G4, I still think Luffy is the strongest but only slightly.


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## MYJC (Aug 10, 2015)

Grimm said:


> These guys can't be serious... How can Sanji be so underrated when he's portrayed to be near Zoro's level? And yet Zoro is so wanked? *I can't even believe there exists a creature who states that Zoro can beat Luffy*.




There are some SERIOUS Zoro wankers on this board, and I'm saying this as a Zoro fan myself. 

There are a good number of people who think Zoro is stronger than/equal to Kidd/Luffy/Law, and some even think he could beat/outlast G4 Luffy (since swords are apparently impossible to defend against unless you're a swordsman yourself). Though he probably would give them high diff.


It's not specific to Zoro though, swordsmen in general get this.


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## Ekkologix (Aug 12, 2015)

You guys know how epic is Oda at making people so strong out of some weak or silly DF's.

What I see here is alot of Supernova underestimation :/

> Why is Capone so underrated.
> Can Sanji even pass Bonny 
> Hawkin's and Apoo's hax levels are total mystery.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 12, 2015)

Kidd/Luffy
*-small gap-*
Law/Zoro
Apoo/Drake/Hawkins
Killer
*-moderate gap-*
Urouge
Bonney/Capone/Sanji


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## savior2005 (Aug 12, 2015)

i think killer gets underestimated too much. a lota ppl say that kidd is stronger than or equal to luffy, so maybe killer is as strong as zoro


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## Extravlad (Aug 12, 2015)

My SN ranking would be.

Luffy/Kid
Zoro
Law/Drake
Hawkins/Apoo
Killer/Urouge
Bonney/Capone


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 12, 2015)

savior2005 said:


> i think killer gets underestimated too much. a lota ppl say that kidd is stronger than or equal to luffy, so maybe killer is as strong as zoro



Zoro's bond with Luffy is comparable to Roger/Rayleigh. 
If we assume the rivalry between Kidd/Luffy is like Roger/Whitebeard, Prime Rayleigh seems to be noticeably stronger than Marco. I'd say the same thing about Zoro compared to Killer. 

Both characters appear to be swordsmen, too, and Zoro's goal is becoming WSS. 
Zoro and Killer should be on the same level, but I think it's clear who is stronger between them.


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## Yuki (Aug 12, 2015)

savior2005 said:


> i think killer gets underestimated too much. a lota ppl say that kidd is stronger than or equal to luffy, so maybe killer is as strong as zoro



That's what i think as well.

Zoro as the same portrayal with Kid as Zoro does with Luffy. 

He seems smarter, the guy with the plan and like he should be the Captain.

Also just like Kid with Luffy, Killer had a higher bounty than Zoro pre skip.



King Itachi said:


> Zoro's bond with Luffy is comparable to Roger/Rayleigh.
> If we assume the rivalry between Kidd/Luffy is like Roger/Whitebeard, Prime Rayleigh seems to be noticeably stronger than Marco. I'd say the same thing about Zoro compared to Killer.
> 
> *Both characters appear to be swordsmen, too, and Zoro's goal is becoming WSS.*
> Zoro and Killer should be on the same level, but I think it's clear who is stronger between them.



And Luffy's goal is to become Pirate King. But that does not mean he's stronger than Kid right now... What BS is that...


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 12, 2015)

Look how special the SH crew is with the M3 ...

Even the 3rd strongest could take on 3-4 Supernovas ... Sanji deserves to be treated respectfully here ...


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## savior2005 (Aug 12, 2015)

Captain Altintop said:


> Look how special the SH crew is with the M3 ...
> 
> Even the 3rd strongest could take on 3-4 Supernovas ... Sanji deserves to be treated respectfully here ...



we dont know that for sure. the guy broke his leg against a nonserious vergo of all people, and his main style of fighting involes kicking. Also, there is no m3 anymore. its quite clear that luffy and zoro are far above sanji.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 12, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> And Luffy's goal is to become Pirate King. But that does not mean he's stronger than Kid right now... What BS is that...



Your placement of Kidd is just opinionated, though, so it doesn't invalidate anything I said. 
Not that I disagree with Kidd being stronger or weaker... I place them around the same level until more is seen from him.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 12, 2015)

savior2005 said:


> we dont know that for sure. the guy broke his leg against a nonserious vergo of all people, and his main style of fighting involes kicking. Also, there is no m3 anymore. its quite clear that luffy and zoro are far above sanji.



Zoro didn't prove anything which puts him far above Sanji ... 

Zoro and Sanji yet need to reveal their full hidden power ups to rate them fairly ...
________

Luffy 100
Zoro 94-96
Sanji 88-90

They were ... they are and they will be always building the M3 ... That's crucial for this kind of Shonen Manga. 

Remember when Sanji couldn't break Blueno's tekkai but crush Jyabura afterwards?

He might look awful in some period but Sanji's coming back straight away to catch up with M3


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## savior2005 (Aug 12, 2015)

Captain Altintop said:


> Zoro didn't prove anything which puts him far above Sanji ...
> 
> Zoro and Sanji yet need to reveal their full hidden power ups to rate them fairly ...
> ________
> ...


zoro wrecked pica while vergo wrecked sanji. Vergo and pica should be more or less the same.


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## Dunno (Aug 13, 2015)

Grimm said:


> These guys can't be serious... How can Sanji be so underrated when he's portrayed to be near Zoro's level? And yet Zoro is so wanked? *I can't even believe there exists a creature who states that Zoro can beat Luffy*.



Read the date of he posts you twerp. 

The post was from before the introduction of gear 4, when all of Luffy's showings had been really mediocre. At that time, Zoro had better feats and portrayal than Luffy and the only thing Luffy had going for him was Shounen-MC logic. Maybe I should have seen a huge power-up coming, but it's easy to say in hindsight. At the time Zoro simply looked stronger, kinda like how Vergo looks stronger than Sanji right now, even though Sanji should logically be stronger. 

Today, I still believe that Zoro can beat Luffy, but that he wouldn't be favoured in their fight. With a bit of luck he could take it, but Luffy would be the favourite. Of course I'd have to add every single SN to Luffy's line, since he with G4 would be able to beat all of them with varying probability. 

Since TB, Sanji hasn't been portrayed that close to Zoro. I believe he could still give the latter one a high diff fight, but that's based on the logic of the M3 dynamic rather than portrayal.

Luffy mid diffing Zoro or low diffing Sanji is wanking. Zoro being stronger than his captain without G4 is not.


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## Pirao (Aug 13, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> It was valid before gear 4. *Now they seem about equal.* Still, Luffy _can_ beat him. But the same goes for the other way around.



 Keep dreaming.


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2015)

Did I see someone calling Killer a swordsman?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 13, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Keep dreaming.



So a guy with multiple one hit and immediately fatal moves and the ability to teleport while using a stamina draining fruit and having the endurance to pull off powerful moves despite having an arm cut off and beat up the whole arc cannot seem equal to Luffy?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 13, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Did I see someone calling Killer a swordsman?



Probably just auto correct 

They meant to say sytheman


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> So a guy with multiple one hit and immediately fatal moves and the ability to teleport while using a stamina draining fruit and having the endurance to pull off powerful moves despite having an arm cut off and beat up the whole arc cannot seem equal to Luffy?



Luffy > Law and you know it.G4 is massively more powerful than Law.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 13, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy > Law and you know it.



Don't tell me "you know it". From my perspective, they're quite equal. G4 and all.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

Luffy is clearly superior to Law in the context of an 1v1 fight. There is absolutely no doubt about that. G4 was absolutely clobbering the same Doflamingo who mid-diffed Law. You could argue Law is still equal to Luffy in the sense of overall efficacy as a pirate, and as an alliance member, due to his ability being able to beat some enemies more easily, have much more utility, and be arguably just as if not more useful in a team, rather than 1v1 fight.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 13, 2015)

Luffy (no G4) < Law << Luffy (G4)

but Luffy's G4 requires a huge sacrifice.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 13, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Luffy is clearly superior to Law in the context of an 1v1 fight. T*here is absolutely no doubt about that. G4 was absolutely clobbering the same Doflamingo who mid-diffed Law*. You could argue Law is still equal to Luffy in the sense of overall efficacy as a pirate, and as an alliance member, due to his ability being able to beat some enemies more easily, have much more utility, and be arguably just as if not more useful in a team, rather than 1v1 fight.



I think that's where we differ. From my perspective the Doflamingo post Gamma knife (Law's final attack on doffy), was not the same Doflamingo who beat him twice.


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## Pirao (Aug 13, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I think that's where we differ. From my perspective the Doflamingo post Gamma knife (Law's final attack on doffy), was not the same Doflamingo who beat him twice.



Indeed it wasn't. The Doflamingo G4 Luffy was facing was using the entirety of his powers (awakening), unlike the one that easily pawned Law, which was operating at half capacity.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I think that's where we differ. From my perspective the Doflamingo post Gamma knife (Law's final attack on doffy), was not the same Doflamingo who beat him twice.



Doffy was injured but Luffy was injured too. DD had less endurance and damage soak capacity due to prior injuries but there's not the slightest indication his actual combat ability fell. If it had fallen Oda would have given it to us loud and clear. Instead what does he give us loud and clear? Statements that both Luffy and Doflamingo were heavily injured. I think that speaks for itself.

It is completely impossible to damage control this so hard that you end up with the conclusion that Law is equal to Luffy. You can argue the gap isn't as wide as taking G4 and Law's performances exactly at face value, sure. But you're never in a million years going to end up with equality.

I'm also taking for granted (which some might argue against) that Law's prior injuries makes up for DD not using Awakening. Since, as Pirao pointed out, Doffy was holding back a major part of his power while still knocking out Law with mid difficulty. You could use this to really damn Law, but I choose to give Law the benefit of the doubt that him being weakened by his injuries had an equal impact as Doffy holding back Awakening the entire time. That's definitely not certain, though. Awakening was actively shown to be a major power-up whilst Law's injuries were never really emphasized but rather a background element.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 13, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Indeed it wasn't. The Doflamingo G4 Luffy was facing was using the entirety of his powers (awakening), unlike the one that easily pawned Law, which was operating at half capacity.



The awakening is a fair point. The half capacity isn't though.



Coruscation said:


> Doffy was injured but Luffy was injured too. DD had less endurance and damage soak capacity due to prior injuries but there's not the slightest indication his actual combat ability fell. If it had fallen Oda would have given it to us loud and clear. Instead what does he give us loud and clear? Statements that both Luffy and Doflamingo were heavily injured. I think that speaks for itself.



The moment Luffy, in base, managed to land hits on doflamingo and make him bleed, right after gamma knife, in my mind it was solidified that he's seriously hurt and now Luffy actually stands a chance of beating him even before G4 was introduced. That, to me, was loud and clear.


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## Pirao (Aug 13, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> The awakening is a fair point. The half capacity isn't though



Of course it is. If you aren't using everything you're capable of you're not operating at full capacity. Awakening was presented as a substantial boost in power. Doflamingo was beating Law casually AND without using awakening. Half capacity is more than a generous estimate on my part.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> The moment Luffy, in base, managed to land hits on doflamingo and make him bleed, right after gamma knife, in my mind it was solidified that he's seriously hurt and now Luffy actually stands a chance of beating him even before G4 was introduced. That, to me, was loud and clear.



And then DD went on to smack Luffy around like a bitch with mid-diff. That was definitely not DD being permanently weakened. It was just Luffy taking the advantage for a brief moment in the fight, when DD was standing in place and arrogantly thinking he could completely defend with just one arm, before Doflamingo easily brought it back and turned it right around.

If Oda wanted DD to be permanently weakened in his combat abilities relative to Luffy he would have told us so, plain and simple. DD's damage soak unquestionably suffered, but his combat abilities did not. He was zipping around, throwing out all sorts of attacks, kicking Luffy around, all with absolutely zero signs of strain or difficulty. He was laughing and smiling and taunting and not even sweating or breathing hard. That is NOT how you portray someone who is permanently impaired. Look at the Lucci fight to see the big difference. Oda actively included a scene where Lucci stumbled and failed to move because of the injury G3 left on him. He made it explicit. The only thing he made explicit in the DD fight is that BOTH Luffy and DD were injured. The only reason to do that is to make clear to the reader that what we're seeing is an honest fight between the two. An honest test of their abilities against each other.


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## God Movement (Aug 13, 2015)

Luffy - anyone.
Zoro - probably Killer. He's beat Pica and that's it. Can't be putting him above Law and Kid based on that feat. Especially not when Law stomped Trebol worse than Zoro did Pica on his deathbed. Just Zolowank as usual.
Sanji - Capone.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 13, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> And then DD went on to smack Luffy around like a bitch with mid-diff. That was definitely not DD being permanently weakened. It was just Luffy taking the advantage for a brief moment in the fight, when DD was standing in place and arrogantly thinking he could completely defend with just one arm, before Doflamingo easily brought it back and turned it right around.
> 
> If Oda wanted DD to be permanently weakened in his combat abilities relative to Luffy he would have told us so, plain and simple. DD's damage soak unquestionably suffered, but his combat abilities did not. He was zipping around, throwing out all sorts of attacks, kicking Luffy around, all with absolutely zero signs of strain or difficulty. He was laughing and smiling and taunting and not even sweating or breathing hard. That is NOT how you portray someone who is permanently impaired. Look at the Lucci fight to see the big difference. Oda actively included a scene where Lucci stumbled and failed to move because of the injury G3 left on him. He made it explicit. The only thing he made explicit in the DD fight is that BOTH Luffy and DD were injured. The only reason to do that is to make clear to the reader that what we're seeing is an honest fight between the two. An honest test of their abilities against each other.



And Luffy was also knocking around Doflamingo, using jet whip, and matching him in kicks, getting blitzed by G2 whereas earlier he seemed impenetrable by luffy except when Law and Luffy double teamed him. Like I said, it actually looked like Luffy had a chance after that knife hit.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> And Luffy was also knocking around Doflamingo, using jet whip, and matching him in kicks, getting blitzed by G2 whereas earlier he seemed impenetrable by luffy except when Law and Luffy double teamed him. Like I said, it actually looked like Luffy had a chance after that hit.



No, you were just seeing different parts of the fight. A fight is not a uniform thing that always goes the same way. Luffy and Doffy barely fought each other 1v1 before the post-Gamma Knife situation. We had the situation in the palace, where Luffy did perfectly fine until he got ambushed by the Black Knight, which Doffy didn't use later, so there's no comparison to be made there. Then post-Red Hawk Luffy got hit with the big PIS gun and stood and stared like a moron whilst Law was getting double-teamed. Doffy then sent him flying through his COA defense. Then when Luffy emerged from his Bellamy fight, they each evaded each other's attacks, neither landing a hit. And that's it. I just described all the prior fighting that happened between Luffy and Doflamingo pre-GK.

Now post-Gamma Knife, Doffy initially took a few good hits. But this isn't because he was weaker. Look at what was actually happening. It's because he stood in place trying to block Luffy instead of dodging. Luffy winded up and managed to push his one-armed COA block back with a heavy COA kick, which there's absolutely no indication he couldn't do before in the same situation. Doffy was briefly taken off-guard and got hit a few more times. But then he zipped out of the way of Eagle Bazooka just as easily as he zipped out of the way of Hawk Gatling. He proceeded to bust through Luffy's double-armed COA defense and send him flying just as easily as before. Next chapter, Luffy goes for a max speed Eagle Bazooka and manages to hit DD who manages to defend with COA. He goes flying but laughs the attack off taking no damage. He then proceeds to mid-diff knock Luffy around and damage him while taking no hits himself, all the while laughing, smiling and taunting and showing zero signs of fatigue, injury or being hindered in any other way. He was doing just as well as he was before Gamma Knife. He showed absolutely no signs of having lesser speed or power seeing how he was still attacking faster than Luffy could dodge at several points, and sending him flying through his COA guard with a kick. This is not how Oda would have portrayed DD if he wanted him to be suffering deterioration of his fighting abilities. He would have made it completely clear like in countless other cases.

Luffy was never doing that badly against DD pre-Gamma Knife. He took a hit in the palace due to the clone while dodging two of DD's attacks and making him put up a Hardening block. He then got his COA defense busted through because he stood in place and stared, but DD later busted through his COA defense just as easily, showing he hadn't deteriorated at all. When he emerged from his Bellamy fight he was actually more weakened than DD, since DD hadn't been hit by Gamma Knife, yet they both dodged each other's attacks.

Throughout all of this it has been consistent:
*DD has a comfortable edge over Luffy but never to where he can just stomp him. DD was always able to land hits and sent Luffy flying through his COA guard, but Luffy was always able to dodge and endure DD's hits.*

Literally the only thing you can argue is that yes, Luffy landed a few hits post-GK that he didn't before. But this is just situational, not based on DD weakening. We even saw DD both dodging and getting hit by the same exact attack, Eagle Bazooka, post-GK. That shows you that it isn't a matter of being weakened. It's just a matter of a fight being a dynamic thing that can go back and forth even when the parties remain the same in strength. It's not a damn math equation. DD took those first hits cause he stood still and tried to block instead of dodging like he was perfectly capable of. And he took the second Bazooka because Luffy really went all in for speed, because DD was able to dodge it before (post-GK) so he knew he had to be maximally quick to get the hit in. You going to argue that because DD dodged one, read it _one_, attack pre-GK, that means Luffy would never ever have been able to land a single hit on him? That's just stupid. G2 Luffy was never complete shit to DD, he was able to put up a fight, but DD definitely had a decisive edge, both pre and post GK. Didn't change.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 13, 2015)

Welp. This is going nowhere.

For what it's worth, I can see why people would feel that Luffy is now much better than Law or whatever. 

But, my perception is still mine.


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2015)

G4 would tear Law apart sadly.Unless you think Law is anywhere near a strong and durable as Doflamingo.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 13, 2015)

There is a reason both posters are having a series conversation, and not just posting that. Please learn to read their debate before posting the same thing 4 times in a row. Reasons why you're being ignored.

How I see it. G4 > Law> Normal Luffy.

In terms of how dangerous each one is, both are about equal while Luffy's G4 gives him the edge in power damage. Law's overall fruit ability, and him being much smarter than Luffy gives him the advantage.


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2015)

B Rabbit said:


> There is a reason both posters are having a series conversation, and not just posting that. Please learn to read their debate before posting the same thing 4 times in a row. Reasons why you're being ignored.
> 
> How I see it. G4 > Law> Normal Luffy.
> 
> In terms of how dangerous each one is, both are about equal while Luffy's G4 gives him the edge in power damage. Law's overall fruit ability, and him being much smarter than Luffy gives him the advantage.



Can people stop with this crap that Luffy is dumb in terms of combat?Luffy is a combat genius always capable of adapting and finding a way to deal with his opponents.

G4's massively superior speed and incredible power would just completely overwhelm Law.Much worse than he did with Doflamingo.Law's smartness won't save him from that onslaught whether you like it or not.

If you knew how to read too you could tell by now that everything is in favor of Luffy > Law.

Keep crying.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 13, 2015)

Law can still cut luffy in half.

Beat to shit Doffy can still manage to dodge a attack from G4 luffy.

Teleporting Law can run away from Luffy just fine or just, counter attack in which law wins that clash.

Luffy is going to have to literally beat  law so quickly he won't even have time to teleport away or swing his sword in Luffy's direction. Good luck with that.


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *Law can still cut luffy in half.*
> 
> Beat to shit Doffy can still manage to dodge a attack from G4 luffy.
> 
> ...


Only if he manages to connect. I agree though that Law still has his fair chance especially with the g4 timelimit, but that's only due to bad match-up. In terms of level, Luffy is clearly higher


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## Dellinger (Aug 13, 2015)

People really forget Luffy blitzing Doflamingo from a kilometer away 

Luffy can wreck Law in a couple of hits which he will certainly be able to land in G4's time limit.


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## Dunno (Aug 13, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Luffy is clearly superior to Law in the context of an 1v1 fight. There is absolutely no doubt about that. G4 was absolutely clobbering the same Doflamingo who mid-diffed Law. You could argue Law is still equal to Luffy in the sense of overall efficacy as a pirate, and as an alliance member, due to his ability being able to beat some enemies more easily, have much more utility, and be arguably just as if not more useful in a team, rather than 1v1 fight.



Clarification: G4 Luffy was clobbering a severely injured Doflamingo who at full health mid-diffed a severely injured Law.

In a fight, Law could just teleport out of sight and wait for G4 to wear off and he'll win easily. If that is restricted, Luffy wins.


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## Six (Aug 13, 2015)

Law could still  beat Luffy, he's still way smarter than him. Plus the only way Luffy beats Law is he he goes heart 4th and he doesn't do that off the bat, meanwhile Law just needs one good hit with radio knife.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 14, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Can people stop with this crap that Luffy is dumb in terms of combat?Luffy is a combat genius always capable of adapting and finding a way to deal with his opponents.
> 
> G4's massively superior speed and incredible power would just completely overwhelm Law.Much worse than he did with Doflamingo.Law's smartness won't save him from that onslaught whether you like it or not.
> 
> ...



I'm laughing because we are talking in terms of alliance, but you keep bringing the conversation back to a battle, about G4 Luffy. Where I stated I was talking about non G4 Luffy. And no, Luffy isn't as smart as Law. In combat, it's even debatable. 

Please learn to read before coming back to the thread. This is the 5 time you didn't read the post properly.


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## B Rabbit (Aug 14, 2015)

Let's face it after a arc or two, when Law comes back, he'll be strong enough to fight G4. Oda's going to give him a power creep after his break from the series, like everyone gets.


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## Beckman (Aug 14, 2015)

Grimm said:


> These guys can't be serious... How can Sanji be so underrated when he's portrayed to be near Zoro's level? And yet Zoro is so wanked? *I can't even believe there exists a creature who states that Zoro can beat Luffy*.



If you wanna wank Sanji that's fine by me, but I'm kinda interested why you highlighted my Zoro quote. I really fail to see how that could possibly be seen as wanking


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## Imagine (Aug 14, 2015)

I knew this thread was going to be a trainwreck


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