# Tobirama vs Itachi



## Blizzard-chan (May 31, 2015)

Location: Open field

Distance: 50 m

Knowledge: Manga/Reputation

Mindset: IC

Restrictions: None


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## Trojan (May 31, 2015)

Surely enough Tobirama is a tier or 2 below Minato's level, but he does not need to be on his tier, so I guess
the FTG users > MS users still applies.


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## Alex Payne (May 31, 2015)

Tobirama would probably need ET or two if this is healthy Itachi. 6/10 to Itachi imo.


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## Six (May 31, 2015)

*right into itachi's eyes as he talks to him*


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (May 31, 2015)

Good grief, the heck is a "healthy Itachi". He was sick the moment he was introduced, always had low stamina as well.

Tobirama beats his ass to the ground. It was the second Hokages occupation to crap on uchiha, Itachi is no exception. Maybe if Itachi had a Rinnegan and senjutsu like Madara did, he would win.

Tobirama is faster, has way more chakra and stamina, the elemental advantage, and the experience in fighting powerful uchiha and MS users. FTG and shadow clones counter most of Itachi's arsenal. Itachis chakra levels can't physically compete with Tobirama.


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## ARGUS (Jun 1, 2015)

Tobirama wins this, high diff 

MS techniques dont hold much weight here at all 

 -- Sensing which enables him to fighht without eye contact and clones counter genjutsu, 

 -- Sensing helps him anticipate the oncoming amatearsu whilst FTG helps him evade it with ease, 

 -- Susanoo gets teleported by FTG, and helps tobirama mark itachi, leading to an instant Hirashingiri KO, or having edos under his command means that GKF would bust Itachis susanoo variants bar V4 (which he cant maintain) and allow tobirama to finish him off eiither way, its not landing any of its attacks and its only taking a toll on itachis stamina 

 -- attempting methods of combat outside of his MS is worse  when itachis clones get countered by tobiramas own, till itachi himself eventually gets marked which would be his end


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

> , or having edos under his command means that GKF



ET needs real human to sacrifice. Tobirama can't use it here without them, and I doubt that people will give their lives so easily to him as well.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Fair enough on the polls
Minato beats itachi because well lets face it, he is faster than tobirama

but tobirama does not. I think thats fair

though how does itachi defends GFK?

if he doesnt totsuka them. he is screwed

@hussain 
so tobirama who was famous for using ET could never use them in combat then?

clearly a person who spams ET always has bodies to use. thats common sense. For someone who fought in periods of wars this is even easier than it was for kabuto. no need to rob graves. bodies all over the place.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

where did I say he could never use them? You brought that one out of your ass. 

also he needs living people, not dead ones.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

then he has them  
unless restricted by the OP

since u arent the OP i guess it isnt restricted


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

I don't care how you think about it. As far as how the jutsu works, he need living people to use. And as far as
I am concerned, he does not walk having living people on his back to sacrifice them.  

So, yeah, unless it's already given them by OP, the requirement needs to be met for him to use it.


but anyway, I don't even know why am I bothering...


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

> Restrictions: None



why are you bothering again


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

I am not debating you whether he can use it or not, so stop being less than smart. How would it sound if I said
itachi can put Tobirama under his Tsukuyomi regardless if Tobirama looked directly at him or not, why? Because fuck
the requirement that the jutsu need to be used. 

Itachi can use endless Izanagi, because fuck getting blind, we don't need to take that in regard. Or Tobirama can beheads him, because fuck the fact that FTG needs a sealing mark.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

to put it simply for you. the OP assumes he has all the necessary requirements and has performed them before the fight. 

the rest is you being yourself tbh

Edo tensei is a simple jutsu with simple requirements no different from having marked kunai in your bag

or would you consider that prep for minato have marked kunai. seeing that he must actually have marked them off panel and put them in his bag before the fight 

no difference here other than its tobirama we are talking about.  some unresolved issues on your end ?


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

If reputation knowledge is what Shukaku had ("can Itachi genjutsu everyone on my team from a billion miles away?"), then Tobirama, who could probably write the Wikipedia entry on the Uchiha, is _not_ getting lolgenjutsuGG'd. 

It's possible that Itachi catches him with other, non-dojutsu illusions, but that's likely not happening either if Tobirama taps into dem Senju reserves and clone spams.

Wow, Hiraishin and clone spam seems like a scary thing to fight.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Gotta agree rocky 
Not only does he have experience with uchiha but the dude could write a book on them 

Also being a sensor will be very handy . dude will stick to geurilla tactics using clones and ET


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 1, 2015)

Tobirama already defeated an MS user with relative ease. Itachi is probably on par, if not weaker than Izuna. Its sad for me to say that FTG users are just superior to Uchihas. 

Minato >>>> Tobirama >> Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Tobirama said Hirashin in conjunction with clones was slow. Not sure what exactly he was referring to but there is also the fact that it wasn't a strategy that he consistantly relied on(except for one time he returned Juubito's minibijuudama to him). 

There is also the fact that he doesn't have knowledge on Itachi's Tsukiyomi(as far as we know it is exclusive to him) and crow genjutsu, so there is still a decent chance that the fight can end pretty fast.

All and all I place Tobirama below Minato, who I believe to be on par with Itachi and who also is in posession of a more refined Hirashin usage, so I don't see Tobirama defeating Itachi under netural circumstances.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

For some reason people don't believe that the FTG can be slower, and that Tobirama is only an idiot who knows jackshit and speak nonsense. So there is really no point of bringing that up here.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

hirashin can be slower
which I have always said 

what I don't get is why is it being slower means tobirama would loose and minato wouldn't 

while its no doubt slower, its possible that tobirama uses it differently which could be tricky in itself. For example tagging ET. 

Sandaime speed is to A speed what tobirama speed is to Minato's 

thinking otherwise is silly. However assuming oh he is slower therefore he cant keep up or would loose solely based on that is just as silly


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

Tobirama moving his finger should be enough.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

> what I don't get is why is it being slower means tobirama would loose and minato wouldn't


The different in speed (Well and the other skills) is obviously a big deal. That different made Minato able to handle to Kage-level at the same time, unlike Tobirama. Thinking that they are on the same level because have the same jutsu has always been silly, and still is.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Tobirama moving his finger should be enough.



Thanks for raising up the quality of BD with your insightful and accurate one liners.



Hussain said:


> For some reason people don't believe that the FTG can be slower, and that Tobirama is only an idiot who knows jackshit and speak nonsense. So there is really no point of bringing that up here.




Why so mad tho ?

Hirashin with clones is slow, so what ? Minato isn't dependant on it anyways.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

never said they are on the same level 
don't get defensive buddy 

Though one could say tobirama clone performed better than KCM minato on panel 

we got no idea how they beat tobirama. Could have been an ambush. In any case you bringing up off panel for no reason 

my question was does his being slower mean itachi can beat him. A is slower than minato, doesn't automatically mean itachi beats him

Loads are slower than minato

now what difference in skill is there between the 2 other than the obvious speed. 

tobirama was more known for ET than his speed in any case


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

@Grimmjowsensei

Not mad, I am telling about your fail attempt.  
Saying that won't make people think that Tobirama is below itachi because they
don't believe in the different you're talking about to begin with. lol


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> Not mad, I am telling about your fail attempt.
> Saying that won't make people think that Tobirama is below itachi because they
> don't believe in the different you're talking about to begin with. lol



I think most people here already think that Itachi is above Tobirama. 

I am just pointing out an important fact here. Tobirama said that Hirashin with clones is slower, that is why they had to put themselves in the harms way : C's genjutsu
If they could accomplish the same thing with clones, I am pretty sure they'd opt to do so.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

If you mean by "most" itachi's fans themselves, then yeah sure.



> If they could accomplish the same thing with clones, I am pretty sure they'd opt to do so.



They usual excuse is "there is a hidden "reflexes" in that sentence, but it's actually written with the magic ink" lol 

so yeah, try to find another excuses to why Tobirama is below him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> If you mean by "most" itachi's fans themselves, then yeah sure.


No I mean, I am not talking about fandoms here. But the general consensus here seems to be that Itachi & Minato being more or less even with Tobirama being a bit below them.




> They usual excuse is "there is a hidden "reflexes" in that sentence, but it's actually written with the magic ink" lol


I don't see why anyone would need an excuse to justify that statement. Both Hirashin users in the manga agreed on not using clones in a critical moment because it'd make the Hirashin slow.  Nothing more needs to be said.



> so yeah, try to find another excuses to why Tobirama is below him.


I don't think I need another excuse, this one is fine enough


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think most people here already think that Itachi is above Tobirama.
> 
> I am just pointing out an important fact here. Tobirama said that Hirashin with clones is slower, that is why they had to put themselves in the harms way : Would be child's play
> If they could accomplish the same thing with clones, I am pretty sure they'd opt to do so.



What the fuck are you talking about ?

Tobirama said using clones in conjunction with FTG was merely slower than using his actual body. This was specifically against a freaking Juubi Jin. Not only is Alive Tobirama faster than Edo Tobirama, but Itachi is tiers less reflexive and slower than a Juubi jin. Clones in tandem with FTG is his best bet, seeing as his actual body will never be touched and he can lol blitz Itachi in CQC.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

> I don't see why anyone would need an excuse to justify that statement. Both Hirashin users in the manga agreed on not using clones in a critical moment because it'd make the Hirashin slow. Nothing more needs to be said.



the idea they usually say "it's instant" and therefore it can never be slower. As such, Tobirama is only a retard who does not know what he is talking about because whether it's the clones or the real one, FTG is the same. 

oh well, it does not matter, I am going to sit and enjoy the show.


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## Bonly (Jun 1, 2015)

Either Itachi manages to catch Tobi in a genjutsu and then lands a fatal blow(assuming the genjutsu isn't said fatal blow) or Tobi is gonna counter most of what Itachi does either lands a touch on him which will later lead to a GG


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

By feats, Itachi is superior due to panel time, although I take it Tobirama has encountered some mangekyou sharingan users in the past. I think Itachi takes it, despite having Hiraishin, Tobirama is still has far too much deal with. I think Amaterasu can be a significant problem.


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> By feats, Itachi is superior due to panel time, although I take it Tobirama has encountered some mangekyou sharingan users in the past. I think Itachi takes it, despite having Hiraishin, Tobirama is still has far too much deal with. I think Amaterasu can be a significant problem.



Amaterasu is nothing more than itachi wasting chakra. with a mere kunai tobirama makes that jutsu less than useless and genin level

it hits him. he jumps and leaves it behind

the end of it


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> What the fuck are you talking about ?


Uhm just quoting the manga that you seem to ignore. But hey, don't mind me 



> Tobirama said using clones in conjunction with FTG was merely slower than using his actual body.


Yes that was the part I quoted. Not sure why you got so mad over it.



> This was specifically against a freaking Juubi Jin. Not only is Alive Tobirama faster than Edo Tobirama, but Itachi is tiers less reflexive and slower than a Juubi jin. Clones in tandem with FTG is his best bet, seeing as his actual body will never be touched and he can lol blitz Itachi in CQC.


I don't think a slower version of Hirashin can blitz Itachi. Thats a pretty baseless claim in general anyways, as for Hirashin users to "blitz" his opponent they need to put them in a position that they can't react to a blindside attempt.

Juubito part is irrelevant as Tobirama never mentioned such thing.



Hussain said:


> the idea they usually say "it's instant" and therefore it can never be slower. As such, Tobirama is only a retard who does not know what he is talking about because whether it's the clones or the real one, FTG is the same.
> 
> oh well, it does not matter, I am going to sit and enjoy the show.



Ok lets assume that one of the smarter manga characters is retarded and doesn't know what he is saying. Because you don't like the idea of Hirashin being slow with clones.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Amaterasu is nothing more than itachi wasting chakra. with a mere kunai tobirama makes that jutsu less than useless and genin level
> 
> it hits him. he jumps and leaves it behind
> 
> the end of it


Amaterasu limits his jumping ability, he'd have to keep it consistent, but then again, it's assuming he even knows that it's the jutsu that is coming from his eye. It was a unique jutsu to Itachi/Sasuke, I don't think Madara had the jutsu in his repertoire. He still has to deal with Tsukuyomi and Susano'o/Totsuka as well.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2015)

> Ok lets assume that one of the smarter manga characters is retarded and doesn't know what he is saying. Because you don't like the idea of Hirashin being slow with clones.


Pfff, I used that panel and the DB statements to SUPPORT the idea. It's not me who doesn't like the idea, but rather Tobirama's fans/Minato's downplayers to put the 2 of them on the same level by saying it's the exact damn shit  

I am only giving you the result of the experience of suffering with their denial, so you don't have to suffer the same, and waste your time explaining to them that. 

If they don't like it, it's stupid, does not make sense, not true, lies...etc etc


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Pfff, I used that panel and the DB statements to SUPPORT the idea. It's not me who doesn't like the idea, but rather Tobirama's fans/Minato's downplayers to put the 2 of them on the same level by saying it's the exact damn shit
> 
> I am only giving you the result of the experience of suffering with their denial, so you don't have to suffer the same, and waste your time explaining to them that.
> 
> If they don't like it, it's stupid, does not make sense, not true, lies...etc etc



Oh my bad. I misundertsood what you said. Thought you were giving the excuse but rather you were talking about Tobirama fans. Ok I get it now, we are on the same boat then huh.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Uhm just quoting the manga that you seem to ignore. But hey, don't mind me
> 
> 
> Yes that was the part I quoted. Not sure why you got so mad over it.
> ...



I'm not mad over the internet lol. But umade that claim as if the FTG with his clones was slow in general. It's not at all. It's just not fast enough to land attacks on Juubito when he's serious. However we've already seen it warp beside Juubito and place a hand on his shoulder without him being able to react and also embarrassing KCM Minato's hand speed.

FTG itself with a clone isn't any slower. It's still already instant, and the clone is using the exact same Justu. The clone however is less reflexive and overall slower than the original. Unless you are intentionally playing dumb, then you support this also.

What Itachi feats do you have to assume he isn't arm blizted just like Juubito was against Tobirama ? Tobirama merely uses a KB in place to take the blow, if you assume Edo tobirama is that much faster than alive tobiramas KB, and if you assume Itachi is even close to the level of Juubi jin in terms of anything.

Lol okay I guess you are playing dumb. Tobirama didn't need to mention Juubito. It's clear as day thats who he was talking to as that was his only enemy. If using FTG with clones was that slow, than Tobirama's clone wouldn't have been able to intercept the black orb and place it in front of Obito before he could react. Which are both feats to assume Itachi can't even trace Tobirama CQC speed even with the MS.


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The different in speed (Well and the other skills) is obviously a big deal. That different made Minato able to handle to Kage-level at the same time, unlike Tobirama. Thinking that they are on the same level because have the same jutsu has always been silly, and still is.



True, they're not at the same level: Tobirama's one ahead. 

I love Minato but seriously, I can't understand why do u think that he's better than Tobirama. 

Tobirama:

- Edo Tensei: He doesn't use it as "slaves" (like Kabuto or Orochimaru) but he has techniques (like Gojuu Kibakuu Fuda) with it.
- Hiraishin no Jutsu: Excelent user.
- 5 elementals.
- Some Kinjutsu that he can send his soul (Probably Reika no Jutsu)
- Best sensor
- Fastest shinobi of his era and owned Minato: a cloud of sand for him and Lee
a cloud of sand for him and Lee
- Genius: Knowledge, fast thinking, etc.. > Both Itachi and Minato (That's why he was leading the entire group)
- Created the Shadow Clone Jutsu.
- Good Chakra quality and reserves (Senju)
- Fought against Uchihas: Might be good at Genjutsu, at least on dissipation.

Minato:

- Hiraishin: Better user than Tobirama, but just a little. Tobirama has 9/10 and he has 10/10, that's all.
- Speed: Like I said before, even without one arm he was using Kyuubi's cloak. He needed to be faster than Tobirama.
- Inteligence: He is, but Tobirama's level ahead. He created almost every stronger technique, and he was always 1 pass ahead.
- Sennin Modo: Didn't use it well and he said that he couldn't use it in fights (never did it before)
- Kuchiyoses.. Good ones.
- 3 Elementals.
- Fuuinjutsus
- Chakra quality and good reserves: Enough to learn SM.

Tobirama's more versatile. More inteligent.

Itachi has 4/10 chances here and Tobirama has 6/10.


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## StickaStick (Jun 1, 2015)

Tobirama's has too many counters to Itachi's win-conditions with the added benefit of having an abundance of experience of having fought Uchiha. Because Itachi can often make up gaps against his opponents with his unique skill set I'll say he pushes Tobirama to a high difficulty.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not mad over the internet lol. But umade that claim as if the FTG with his clones was slow in general.


I didn't make that claim, the manga did. Like I said, I just quoted the manga to point it out. Nothing more nothing less.



> t's not at all. It's just not fast enough to land attacks on Juubito when he's serious. However we've already seen it warp beside Juubito and place a hand on his shoulder without him being able to react and also embarrassing KCM Minato's hand speed.
> 
> FTG itself with a clone isn't any slower. It's still already instant, and the clone is using the exact same Justu. The clone however is less reflexive and overall slower than the original. Unless you are intentionally playing dumb, then you support this also.
> 
> ...



Tobirama was able to perform all those things because he was able to mark Juubito when he was in a mindless state, at the cost of getting ripped in half. 

If he places a mark on Itachi, sure, he likely can blindside him. 

Although you have to also consider that Obito had too much in his plate, and he and Tobirama never fought 1 on 1. Tobirama always capitalized whenever Juubito was dealing with something else. 

I find the chances of Tobirama marking Itachi less than the chances of Itachi landing a genjutsu or Amaterasu before. So If we'r strictly going by odds, I favor Itachi more here.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't make that claim, the manga did. Like I said, I just quoted the manga to point it out. Nothing more nothing less.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You still completely ignore what it was referencing.  You're kinda sorta applying a preschool level of comprehension right now. We both know FTG with clones is simply less effective when coordinating attacks against a JUUBI jin. Which is also why he said its " too slow" in reference to his opponent instead of just " it's slow" like in general. 

Mindless Juubitos flicker is still fuck loads quicker than KCM Naruto's, which in turn is enough to blitz Itachi. Not only did Tobirama react to Juubito, but he touched his body 5 times before he could finish his flicker, and we both know that flickers of Ay or KCM Naruto level are damn near insant. And it's pretty obvious that he reacted to Juubito before he got to his body unless you believe Tobirama tagged Juubito 5 times in response to being ripped in half which is even more impressive from a different perspective. Regardless, those feats are enough to assume that Itachi gets mutilated in CQC against a clone.

Of course he never fought Tobirama one on one as he would have murdered him. But I mean Juubito is kinda like a billion tiers above  Itachi do it doesn't matter. Except Juubito also has blindside sencing, and he would still caught off guard by the CLONE of EDO Tobirama. Not like Itachi really has a chance here even if he isn't tagged.

Tobirama was fighting uchiha on the daily. I doubt he's getting caught in Genjustu. He can even play it safe by merely using his sensory abilities in tandem with KB to ensure he's never actually hit with Genjustu at all. 

Amaterasu is also useless as its canonically warped off his body as soon as it makes contact( if it ever does lol). Itachi has no chances.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Amaterasu is nothing more than itachi wasting chakra. with a mere kunai tobirama makes that jutsu less than useless and genin level
> 
> it hits him. he jumps and leaves it behind
> 
> the end of it



 Which leaves Tobirama in a vulnerable spot as Itachi can anticipate where Tobirama's going to warp and just Totsuka blitz him.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

Itachi isn't Totsuka blitzing Tobirama. Oro and controlled Nagato with a distraction don't have reactions on par with tobirama nor can they warp out of its AoE via a thought. Totsuka blitzing is literally the last way Itachis winning here. Knocking him unconscious with break dancing flares is literally just as probable.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Itachi isn't Totsuka blitzing Tobirama. Oro and controlled Nagato with a distraction don't have reactions on par with tobirama nor can they warp out of its AoE via a thought. Totsuka blitzing is literally the last way Itachis winning here. Knocking him unconscious with break dancing flares is literally just as probable.



 Sure, though if Minato felt V2 Ei could render Minato in a dire situation if Ei effectively anticipated where Minato was going to warp, then I certainly do think Tobirama would be put in a vulnerable situation if Itachi effectively anticipates where Tobirama warps to, especially when we consider the likelihood of less Kunai being spread across the field.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 1, 2015)

^^^
Scan of where Minato felt  EI  forced him into a dire situation? Because all I saw was Minato walking away and then getting jumped while his back was turned. Where did Minato say EI would have got him, or that he even felt pressured?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> ^^^
> Scan of where Minato felt  EI  forced him into a dire situation? Because all I saw was Minato walking away and then getting jumped while his back was turned. Where did Minato say EI would have got him, or that he even felt pressured?



 Ei implied it himself and MInato further implied it when he decided to strike down Young B who still managed to react to Minato's attempt to strike him down. 

 Minato was pressured IMO.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, though if Minato felt V2 Ei could render Minato in a dire situation if Ei effectively anticipated where Minato was going to warp, then I certainly do think Tobirama would be put in a vulnerable situation if Itachi effectively anticipates where Tobirama warps to, especially when we consider the likelihood of less Kunai being spread across the field.



I'd put base Minato's reactions on par with Itachis, and Ay's reactions are even above that with V2 activated. Even then, he had a very telegraphed method that only works if the user is using clear as FTG Kunai in sight. Tobirama uses tagged kunai, regular marks and can mark moving clones. Itachi isn't predicting anything. Even if you were to assume he had the chance too, tobirama would have to warp to a clone within 10m and he can easily warp to a tag behind Itachi flanking him. Then there's the fact that Totsuka in general Is much slower than V2 Raikage and Tobiramas reactions are even better than Base Minato's.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I'd put base Minato's reactions on par with Itachis, and Ay's reactions are even above that with V2 activated.



 Meh, with enhanced Precognition along with the fact that he can react to SM Kbuto effectively, I believe Itachi's reactions are far greater than Base Minato's though V2 Ei's reflexes are also certainly above Base Minato's.



> Even then, he had a very telegraphed method that only works if the user is using clear as FTG Kunai in sight. Tobirama uses tagged kunai, regular marks and can mark moving clones. Itachi isn't predicting anything.



 Marking by simply using clones isn't enough IMO, especially when they are less reflexive than the original. You're talking about the guy who could tango with SM Kabuto and can outmaneuver Base Bee fairly easily. I don't think clones would be enough to reach Itachi who's a very perceptive fighter as noted by Bee.



> Even if you were to assume he had the chance too, tobirama would have to warp to a clone within 10m and he can easily warp to a tag behind Itachi flanking him. Then there's the fact that Totsuka in general Is much slower than V2 Raikage and Tobiramas reactions are even better than Base Minato's.




 Totsuka doesn't need to be as fast as V2 Ei considering it covers a far larger range.

 That's the thing, Itachi's a very perceptive fighter as portrayed in the manga. Itachi's not going to continuously spam attacks against a clone. That's unlike him. Furthermore, the only bushin feint he's fallen for was due to Kakashi's, but even then, Itachi didn't even utilize his basic tactics against Kakashi, planned the entire fight ahead of time, and Tobirama hasn't displayed effective usage of bushin feints the way Kakashi has. I highly doubt Tobirama would simply be able to warp behind Itachi undetected. If Tobirama does resort to using clones, that only splits his chakra allowing Itachi to have a better chance of outlasting Tobirama.


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## ARGUS (Jun 1, 2015)

I am looking at the majority of the people here claiming that itachi wins, yet i havnt seen one decent argument to support their claims, 

and its even worse for those claiming that Minato beats Itachi, yet tobirama loses, it makes no sense whatsoever considering that their entire arsenal revolves around FTG and both of them have no firepower to even scratch susanoo, making it the exact same battle, 

rasengans are non factor, and summonings are non factor, making it the exact same fight 

Genjutsu catching tobirama is probably as unlikely as the sun rising from the west and setting in the east, 
not only does he have immense knowledge on te uchiha and has been fighting them for decades, he also has sensing that enables him to fight with no eye contact, and has clones that reduce the probability of the original getting caught even more, 

the clones FTG being slow argument is allso moot, when we consider the fact that it was against a juubi jin, and not a sitting target like susanoo which tobirama and his clones can dance around alll day, 
he can toss kunais, and have his clones touch susanoo, allowing a direct contact, and enabling tobirama to teleport itachi out of his construct and leave him vulnearble for hiraishingiri,


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I am looking at the majority of the people here claiming that itachi wins, yet i havnt seen one decent argument to support their claims,
> 
> and its even worse for those claiming that Minato beats Itachi, yet tobirama loses, it makes no sense whatsoever considering that their entire arsenal revolves around FTG and both of them have no firepower to even scratch susanoo, making it the exact same battle,
> 
> ...


Truth be told, I did entertain his experience in the prior wars and fights which would give him ample advantage over any Uchiha. However, when I look at Itachi, I also see the epitome of what Uchiha had to produce, especially someone with genjutsu prowess such as his. 

As talented as Tobirama is, I do not see how he manages to overcomes Tsukuyomi, he has no bijuu and while he can fight at looking on Itachi's other body movements ? he can be ensnared with a finger genjutsu he caught Naruto. If Itachi truly feels threatened, he could jump right into Susano'o and use it as plausible defense, against Hiraishin and then therefore use Totsuka for a sealing purpose.

The best skill-set Tobirama has going for him is attacking with Hiraishin, where Itachi can be caught off guard. However, in order to do that he would need to have his instruments in place and have a well doctored plan, which isn't hard for someone like him.

All it comes down to is who executes what faster, if Tobirama is caught by the finger genjutsu or gets tripped up via a crow clone, I don't think he'll be able to make it out. Likewise if Itachi is caught off guard with Hiraishin, he's done for assuming Tobirama's attack is able to kill.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Meh, with enhanced Precognition along with the fact that he can react to SM Kbuto effectively, I believe Itachi's reactions are far greater than Base Minato's though V2 Ei's reflexes are also certainly above Base Minato's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reacting to Kabuto doesn't mean diddly squat tbh. Itachi hasn't displayed anything to assume he reacts to a V2 flicker any better than base Minato. Base Minato's reactions are also close to WaR Arc sage Naruto which are all about the same level of Itachi.  MS sasuke couldn't react to Ays actual flicker, and Itachis reactions are only slightly superior to that.

What? You're talking about a guy who's weakened clones have arm speed faster than KCM Minato, and can warp behind a sensor like Juubito and place an arm on his shoulder without him reaction. His clones reactions aren't that much slower than his actual reactions, and he's capable of landing 5 attacks on Juubito at the expense of one. His speed level is far above Itachi and Itachi won't even be able to register his CQC ability. He also wasnt able to outmaneuver bee casually at all... bee pressured Itachi enough that he deemed it necessary to flee lmao. 

Um what ? Just because it's long doesn't mean anything at all. He still has to actually extend the sword, which is far slower than AY can Flicker and cover the same distance . Unless you believe something like Bees tentacle is going to travel faster than BM Naruto just because it's larger. And even if magically did travel even faster than a V2 Flicker, it still would be dodged by FTG at 10m based on his reactions.

You thinking Tobirama's feint are inferior to Kakashi is based solely on your own opinion combined with a lack of feats. He invented the damn Justu himself and has far more experience than Kakashi. 
Facts are, Tobirama has caught a Juubi jin off guard with his hand speed and clones. Itachi stand absolutely NO CHANCE in hell without sussano activated 100% of the time. There's no argument behind that at all. 

Are you serious??? Tobirama a Senju and brother of Hashirama isn't being outlasted by Itachi that's cute. Especially considering his CQC skill, Kage Bunshin and FTG would outright decimate Itachi if he didn't utilize Sussano 100% of the time. He would probably be damn near blizted by his Intial flicker considering his flicker is Atleast equal to Madara and Madara can pressure Sage Naruto with his flicker. Mix that with clones and FTG and you get Tobirama warping away Itachis Sussano, with a clone behind him who tags Itachi a million times before getting dispersed.

I Think you also forget that not only does Tobirama have more knowledge and more tactical feats than Itachi... But he fought and killed Uchiha every single day. Itachi isn't an exception.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Reacting to Kabuto doesn't mean diddly squat tbh. Itachi hasn't displayed anything to assume he reacts to a V2 flicker any better than base Minato. Base Minato's reactions are also close to WaR Arc sage Naruto which are all about the same level of Itachi.  MS sasuke couldn't react to Ays actual flicker, and Itachis reactions are only slightly superior to that.



 It actually does. Kabuto's a Perfect Sage which implies that all his stats, including his speed is augmented and considering he's the only Sage that displayed feats of evading Susano'o Arrow successfully and casually, then he should certainly be extremely fast. How fast do you believe SM Kabuto is by any chance?

 MS Sasuke could react to Ei's actual flicker. He managed to perceive Ei's flicker before he moved faster than Sasuke can turn his head. MS Sasuke was never blitzed, not even once and Itachi has shown superior reaction feats compared to EMS Sasuke during his clash with Kabuto and EMS grants the user with greater precognition, so Itachi's reactions should be extremely high.



> What? You're talking about a guy who's weakened clones have arm speed faster than KCM Minato, and can warp behind a sensor like Juubito and place an arm on his shoulder without him reaction. His clones reactions aren't that much slower than his actual reactions, and he's capable of landing 5 attacks on Juubito at the expense of one. His speed level is far above Itachi and Itachi won't even be able to register his CQC ability. He also wasnt able to outmaneuver bee casually at all... bee pressured Itachi enough that he deemed it necessary to flee lmao.



 His speed level being far higher than Itachi's speed is pure conjecture here as you haven't proven to me why that'd be the case.

 What you displayed were reaction feats and they certainly are high and I do certainly agree that his reactions are higher than KCM Minato though that's not saying much considering 3T Itachi managed to evade a blindside strike from Base Bee despite fending off KCM Naruto.

 Tobirama landing those strikes had more to do with Juubito not concealing his weakspot. Once Juubito didn't let his guard down, Tobirama was rendered useless and both BM Minato and BSM Naruto's teamwork was rendered useless despite using Tobirama's tag. 

 Yeah, Itachi did outmaneuver Bee. He managed to land a Katon against Base Bee (which would scorched him if it weren't for partial Bijuu transformations) and managed to get out of Bee's range. He even used a far inferior weapon and still managed to react to Bee's Kenjutsu. 



> Um what ? Just because it's long doesn't mean anything at all. He still has to actually extend the sword, which is far slower than AY can Flicker and cover the same distance . Unless you believe something like Bees tentacle is going to travel faster than BM Naruto just because it's larger. And even if magically did travel even faster than a V2 Flicker, it still would be dodged by FTG at 10m based on his reactions.



 Except Itachi extending the sword involves far less movement than Ei's flicker and should require even less time considering Itachi's incredible hand seal speed. 

 Those two instances aren't even comparable as they involve the same motion and do surpass the user's actual movement speed. Here, Ei relies on his own Shunshin speed whereas Itachi only requires one simple motion. Those situations aren't comparable, not even close.

 Not when Tobirama's left in a vulnerable position due bushin feints, Amaterasu, and just Susano'o which will pressure Tobirama and force him to warp in which Itachi can perceive where Tobirama's going to warp. On the off-chance that Susano'o is tagged, I'm not sure why that matters as Itachi's perceptive capabilities will give him an opportunity to identify what Tobirama intends on doing.

 Even then, the idea that Tobirama has no knowledge on finger genjutsu only hurts Tobirama here and will allow Itachi to use it to his advantage, long enough to throw a kunai through his head of Totsuka GG.



> You thinking Tobirama's feint are inferior to Kakashi is based solely on your own opinion combined with a lack of feats. He invented the damn Justu himself and has far more experience than Kakashi.



 Tobirama invented the FTG, so therefore he's the best FTG user out there.



 Nope. 



> Facts are, Tobirama has caught a Juubi jin off guard with his hand speed and clones. Itachi stand absolutely NO CHANCE in hell without sussano activated 100% of the time. There's no argument behind that at all.



 Not exactly. Juubito being tagged from his rear end involved Juubito not being concerned about that particular area and the fact that Juubito was also preoccupied with other High Kage Level ninja. Itachi doesn't need Susano'o activated 100% of the time unless you're suggesting Tobirama's far faster than SM Kabuto which seems ridiculous. That's the same Kabuto who's displayed skills that surpassed Orochimaru in Base and is further enhanced due to Sage Mode which augments the user's stats to a high degree.



> Are you serious??? Tobirama a Senju and brother of Hashirama isn't being outlasted by Itachi that's cute.



 Your lack of comprehension amuses me. Kage Bushins splits his chakra and using it multiple times drastically decreases his reserves, making it a lot easier for Itachi to outlast.

 Susano'o also isn't going to consume a good portion of Itachi's Chakra considering Itachi's ability to use V4 Susano'o while Blind, having MS deactivated, and suffering from a fatal illness far surpasses Sasuke's ability to handle Susano'o in a fresh state. That guy literally cringed from using V4 Susano'o under a more desirable physical condition even after spamming MS jutsus for 10 minutes straight.



> Especially considering his CQC skill, Kage Bunshin and FTG would outright decimate Itachi if he didn't utilize Sussano 100% of the time.



 Itachi has also displayed exceptional Taijutsu skills and incredibly fast hand seal speed (which helps him keep Tobirama at bay). Kage Bushin are either countered by Itachi's simple Bushin feints followed by incredible Shuriken ninjutsu that even Nagato's Shared Vision could not detect. He doesn't need to keep Susano'o activated 100% of the time, no way in hell.



> He would probably be damn near blizted by his Intial flicker considering his flicker is Atleast equal to Madara and Madara can pressure Sage Naruto with his flicker. Mix that with clones and FTG and you get Tobirama warping away Itachis Sussano, with a clone behind him who tags Itachi a million times before getting dispersed.



 Tobirama having speed comparable to Madara's flicker while Minato's flicker is far slower than Young Ei's, the former who has superior flicker speed compared to Tobirama? Nope.

 Yeah, clones aren't doing shit. Tobirama's not the kind of guy to spam multiple clones or he would have seen fit against Juubito considering Juubito's carelessness.

 Itachi being tagged is basically a figment of Tobirama's imagination as Tobirama realizes that it was all just a genjutsu. Tobirama managed to break free, but it is too late as Itachi to decapitates him or Totsuka Blitz GG.



> I Think you also forget that not only does Tobirama have more knowledge and more tactical feats than Itachi... But he fought and killed Uchiha every single day. Itachi isn't an exception.



 More tactical feats? Well, I'm convinced.

 Fighting Uchiha that are incapable of using the MS is hardly comparable as well as the fact that Itachi displays skills that they don't such as Fast Hand Seal Speed, Shuriken ninjutsu, bushin feints, versatility with Genjutsu, and MS ninjutsu that Tobirama lacks knowledge of. It's hard to believe that Tobirama would manage the win solely based on his experiences with Uchiha because as Kishimoto portrays Itachi as one of the most perceptive ninja out there. Tobirama's best performance against an Uchiha was struggling to kill Izuna who has very little feats that compare to Itachi's extensive knowledge and versatile arsenal.

 Simply put, Itachi has a chance.

* Edit: * Let the Itachi wank begin.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

> =pluuuuffff;53709966]True, they're not at the same level: Tobirama's one ahead.
> 
> I love Minato but seriously, I can't understand why do u think that he's better than Tobirama.


Because anyone who has reading comprehension know that Minato is *CLEARLY* presented to be his superior?  



> Tobirama:
> 
> - Edo Tensei: He doesn't use it as "slaves" (like Kabuto or Orochimaru) but he has techniques (like Gojuu Kibakuu Fuda) with it.


So, they are extremely weakened nontheless. 


> - Hiraishin no Jutsu: Excelent user.


Still inferior to Minato. 


> - 5 elementals.


Has no feats in 4 of them. In addition, we know his other elements will be weaker than his main one, which is not impressive to begin with.


> - Some Kinjutsu that he can send his soul (Probably Reika no Jutsu)


No feats whatsoever, you have no clue what he meant, and for all we know he might have meant ET.


> - Best sensor


Nonsense. 





> - Fastest shinobi of his era and owned Minato: seal
> seal



Nonsense, and he admitted that he is inferior to Minato in that regard, so there is no need to waste our time with that crap. Even Tobirama himself does not believe it. 


> - Genius: Knowledge, fast thinking, etc.. > Both Itachi and Minato (That's why he was leading the entire group)


He was not leading jackshit. They were working together. 



> - Created the Shadow Clone Jutsu.


So? 


> - Good Chakra quality and reserves (Senju)


and?


> - Fought against Uchihas: Might be good at Genjutsu, at least on dissipation


.
Fan-fiction. Where was he even been praised for Genjutsu? Yeah, never did. 



> Minato:
> 
> - Hiraishin: Better user than Tobirama, but just a little. Tobirama has 9/10 and he has 10/10, that's all.



Yeah, that's little made Minato fodderstomps armies of 1000, when Tobirama has his ass handled to him by 20.  

That "1" made Minato handle A & B the strongest Tag-Team in Kumo, when Tobirama got his ass handled to him by Kin/Gin, even tho he was backed up by the Raikage. 

That's "1" is so insignificant that it made Minato known throughout the land as the Yellow Flash whoever one fears him, unlike Tobirama who was actually the one running from his enemies. lol 



> - Speed: Like I said before, even without one arm he was using Kyuubi's cloak. He needed to be faster than Tobirama.


Again, you're using terrible examples, of Minato's missing arm, Tobirama coming out of an off-panel place and using FTG. That's like saying Hiruzen is also faster than them because he saved Naruto from the Tree and they did not. Please, try to use common sense a bit more. 


> - Inteligence: He is, but Tobirama's level ahead. He created almost every stronger technique, and he was always 1 pass ahead.


Except creating the jutusus is not helping him here. Tobirama always failed to bring those jutsu to their full potential, unlike those who came after him, which means they were the ones ahead of him.  



> - Sennin Modo: Didn't use it well and he said that he couldn't use it in fights (never did it before)


So, you're really good of making excuses to Tobirama's cases with his jutsu, but you try to put the exact opposite when it comes to Minato? lol

First of all, Minato did not say "I never used it in battle) heck, he just used it against Madara. 
in addition, his problem can be EASILY solved with Ma/Pa on his shoulders like with Jiraiya, unlike Tobirama's problems which he can't do anything to fix their inferiority. 




> - Kuchiyoses.. Good ones.
> - 3 Elementals.
> - Fuuinjutsus
> - Chakra quality and good reserves: Enough to learn SM.




Good, but your bias is shown nonetheless. You gave Tobirama's points for creating jutus, why did you not give that to Minato for creating Rassengan and the S/T barrier?

You pointed out Tobirama's unknown jutsu, why did you not mention Minato's long-named jutsu or his barrier that he was going to use against Kurama? 

you said Tobirama fought the uchiha, he might have good genjutsu. Why did you now say Minato was Jiraiya's student, so may know all of his jutsu that
at least has to do with the frogs? 



> Tobirama's more versatile. More inteligent.


lol, no, Minato IS more versatile, and their intelligent is more or less the same. 
You can see Minato's superior pool of jutsu compared to Tobirama's. 

Minato


> Chakra Transfer Technique
> Contract Seal
> Dead Demon Consuming Seal
> Eight Trigrams Sealing Style
> ...



Tobirama


> Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
> Flying Thunder God Slash
> Flying Thunder God Technique
> Four Red Yang Formation
> ...


and Minato with only 1 hand, so he lost most of his Ninjutsu, unlike Tobirama who was not at a disadvantage of not being able to use his. 

as for the chances, yeah, Tobirama is stronger than itachi, that's obvious.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It actually does. Kabuto's a Perfect Sage which implies that all his stats, including his speed is augmented and considering he's the only Sage that displayed feats of evading Susano'o Arrow successfully and casually, then he should certainly be extremely fast. How fast do you believe SM Kabuto is by any chance?
> 
> MS Sasuke could react to Ei's actual flicker. He managed to perceive Ei's flicker before he moved faster than Sasuke can turn his head. MS Sasuke was never blitzed, not even once and Itachi has shown superior reaction feats compared to EMS Sasuke during his clash with Kabuto and EMS grants the user with greater precognition, so Itachi's reactions should be extremely high.
> 
> ...



Reacting to sage Kabuto doesn't mean you're reactions are above a sage. Reacting to Sage Jirayia doesn't put his reactions on a godly tier at anything. What feats do you actually have for Kabuto that his speed so high? Reacting to a Sussano puts his speed at what tier and in that specific feat puts him how much closer to Juubitos flicker might I ask , because Tobirama canonically trolled that speed by times five. I put kabutos reactions at about Sage Naruto's reactions and his movement speed slightly above. But even Sage Naruto could hardly react to Blind Madara, and blind madras flicker isn't any faster than Tobiramas. By virtue of that single feat, Tobirama could pressure Itachi with any of his flickers as he wouldn't be able to properly register his movement speed. Now add in KB and FTG and you have Itachi who can't even see Tobirama lmao. But I'd like you to prove any of the feats of Itachi actually landing clean blows on Kabuto. I'll wait for those.

He couldn't react to Ays flicker at all. You might need to re -read those chapters all together. He couldn't react to Ays flicker( which was the whole point of the Sharingan not being able to register his movements: seal) and then if you actually read the rest YOU'd notice that Ays appears beside Sasuke while he's STILL FACING THE OTHER direction as he clearly wasn't able to resister the movement at all. He was only able to react in response to Ays arm swing which is way slower than his flicker: seal
Karin even directly says that Sasuke can't react to his movement and instead shields himself so the Raikage can't breach. That's all there is too it. 

His speed being higher than Itachis isn't proved ? You are joking . Blind alive Madara( who's flicker isn't even faster than Tobiramas) was able to almost blitz Sage Naruto with his speed , and S Naruto's reactions are atleast equal to Itachis. That alone is enough to put his shunshin speed above Itachis unless you want to provide some flicker feats for Itachi to disprove it ? In handspeed/seals, Tobirama was able to tag Juubito( mind you this was a flicker, so you can throw the uncontrollable part considering an mindless juubitos flicker is still >>> to KCM narutos flicker which means Itachi gets blizted by speed like that 3 times over . He holds no have) 5 times during a Shunshin. And he clearly initially reacted to the flicker unless you believe he reacted 5 times to Juubito after being hit, and before he could escape his AOE during an instant flicker. Those feats basically put his reactions, HandSpeed, and flicker far above Itachis. Deal with it.

So reaching to Killer Bee Swinging a huge ass sword with shared vision through Edo, puts his reactions even close to KCM minato? I'd really like to see your reasoning behind that. Cause that's not even reasonable.

You can't hide you're weakspots during a flicker. You realize that flickers above Ays level are instant right ? Like a KCM Naruto flicker or even Ay flicker itself happens in such a short time frame, that slower opponents can't react or even do anything. And then you have Tobirama reacting perfectly 5 times to Obito's flicker . And Obitos flicker is on an extremely high level considering its a flicker instead of just movement. You'd actually be hard pressed to find another flicker from a JUUBI Jin, so that feat is crazy and you need to know that it's crazy.

Cause at that point Tobirama would be killed Juubi techniques, he couldn't afford to be caught off guard by techs as he would remain dead. He also never really attempted to attack V2 focused Juubito regardless.

Base bee isn't on the level of a JUUBI jin, he's tiers inferior so that feat isn't even impressive. Regardless bee outright dealt with his Katon( why would he need to move when he can just block it? And he was only out in that situation because of Genjustu) and forced Itachi to flee. Being forced to flee by base bee isn't close to being able to tag the 10 tails jin 5 times during a flicker. Massive gap there.

It doesn't matter if it takes less movement. It's simply slower, and I already gave you an example that countered it. Does Bees tentacle move faster than V2 Ay because of less movement ? No so same applies here. And unless you have feats than your point is moot. His hand speed also has doesn't mean diddly squat when it's sussano that's moving.

I hope you know that a flicker is one movement and not multiple steps right ? It's just as quick of a movement as extending a sword. Except in this situation Ay is much faster than Itachi. But I mean you can go on believing hidans sword swing and a kick from a Tsuande are all much faster than Ay considering its less movement. That's on you.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

CONT:  
•Tobirama as a sensor, with KB, and FTG isn't being feinted by someone as slow as Itachi lmao
• Amateasu is too slow, and even if it hits it's canonically warped off.
• Itachi isn't anymore perceptive than Tobirama, you act like his perception is some special ability that allows him to win . It doesn't at all he's outclassed. If his Sussano is tagged he's either forced to deactivate it( which leaves Tobirama clear as day to blitz with KB hoarde + sage Naruto pressuring flicker + FTG) or he keeps it up and gets either warped out of Sussano or Tobirama warps Sussano away and bliztes during the interval. Either way Itachi is fucked.
• he doesn't get caught in finger Genjustu because his real body never has to  actually look at Itachi. He has KB as diversions.

I'll give you that. But provide some Kakashi clone feints that are above what Tobirama was doing to Juubito with clones ?

When Juubito was tagged 5 times he wasn't preoccupied by anyone at all. When Juubito tagged Minato and was watching from a distance as Minato warped away and was about to die by the explosion, he clearly wasn't occupied as he has sensory abilities and top tier reactions.

Yes Itachi does need SUSSANO 100% of the unless you want to provide a single feat of Kabuto flicker charging Itachi and him fending him off without Sussano or if you want to provide feats of Kabutos flicker being > to Base Madaras. Tobirama + FTG is way faster than Sage Kabuto anyway. Reacting to a 
freaking Sussano arrowYes Itachi does need SUSSANO 100% of the unless you want to provide a single feat of Kabuto flicker charging Itachi and him fending him off without Sussano or if you want to provide feats of Kabutos flicker being > to Base Madaras. Tobirama + FTG is way faster than Sage Kabuto anyway. Reacting to a 
freaking Sussano arrow doesn't mean shit. 

Skills that surpass ORO in base ? Provide them? That also better be in terms of flicker and reactions cause that's what we are talking about here.

Kid Naruto without Kurama's chakra was able to create more than 100 clones. A pure senju like Tobirama can't create 5 good clones here that warp away from attacks via FTG. Yeah I guess that's crazy. 

Even by DB standards Itachi has low chakra levels. Correct me if I'm wrong but He used Tsukuyomi, A Katon, Amaterasu twice, and Sussano for 2 moves and dropped dead of exhaustion. How the hell is that enough for Tobirama. Keeping Sussano activate the whole time would fuck his shit up , while using FTG takes less chakra and doesn't need to be sustained. He outlasts casually if he needs to.

Tobirama isn't slower than Madara or Hashirama. He's around the same level, most likely faster considering speed is his forte. Minato's flicker is much slower than ays... Based on what ? The no evidence you just provided. It's slower than V2 Ays but faster than V1 Ays via feats. And how much faster do you think Minato's flicker is to Tobiramas? Because according to viz, he merely said it was just faster. And considering the other kage were only using movement speed. We don't really know. 

How do you know Tobiramas not the type ? He was going against a JUUBI Jin, and the FIRST THING HE DID was use clones before realizing that Juubito was on an entirely different level.

I mean Tobirama was shitting on Minato via feats and knowledge and Minato is at the very least equal in tactics to Itachi or that's what's been hyped to be. Tobirama also has more experienced and actual deals specifically with people like Itachi unlike Itachi dealing with FTG users or Senju.

Naw Itachi doesn't have a chance. A younger less experienced Tobirama was slaughtering MS users. Via feats he trolls Itachi and I'm pretty sure I've just proved that. As long as Tobirama used his sensory abilities to not look at Itachi, Itachi doesn't have a chance. 
 doesn't mean shit. 

Skills that surpass ORO in base ? Provide them? That also better be in terms of flicker and reactions cause that's what we are talking about here.

Kid Naruto without Kurama's chakra was able to create more than 100 clones. A pure senju like Tobirama can't create 5 good clones here that warp away from attacks via FTG. Yeah I guess that's crazy. 

Even by DB standards Itachi has low chakra levels. Correct me if I'm wrong but He used Tsukuyomi, A Katon, Amaterasu twice, and Sussano for 2 moves and dropped dead of exhaustion. How the hell is that enough for Tobirama. Keeping Sussano activate the whole time would fuck his shit up , while using FTG takes less chakra and doesn't need to be sustained. He outlasts casually if he needs to.

Tobirama isn't slower than Madara or Hashirama. He's around the same level, most likely faster considering speed is his forte. Minato's flicker is much slower than ays... Based on what ? The no evidence you just provided. It's slower than V2 Ays but faster than V1 Ays via feats. And how much faster do you think Minato's flicker is to Tobiramas? Because according to viz, he merely said it was just faster. And considering the other kage were only using movement speed. We don't really know. 

How do you know Tobiramas not the type ? He was going against a JUUBI Jin, and the FIRST THING HE DID was use clones before realizing that Juubito was on an entirely different level.

I mean Tobirama was shitting on Minato via feats and knowledge and Minato is at the very least equal in tactics to Itachi or that's what's been hyped to be. Tobirama also has more experienced and actual deals specifically with people like Itachi unlike Itachi dealing with FTG users or Senju.

Naw Itachi doesn't have a chance. A younger less experienced Tobirama was slaughtering MS users. Via feats he trolls Itachi and I'm pretty sure I've just proved that. As long as Tobirama used his sensory abilities to not look at Itachi, Itachi doesn't have a chance.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Which leaves Tobirama in a vulnerable spot as Itachi can anticipate where Tobirama's going to warp and just Totsuka blitz him.



how can he? 

when tobirama could have created 3 or 4 clones all holding kunai before he wraps to anyone of the 6 or 8 marks just created. 

unlikely itachi can anticipate where he wraps to

so as previously stated a laughable waste of chakra on itachi part


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## Alex Payne (Jun 2, 2015)

Who has better sensing+reaction pack - SM Kabuto or Tobirama?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Ei implied it himself and MInato further implied it when he decided to strike down Young B who still managed to react to Minato's attempt to strike him down.
> 
> Minato was pressured IMO.



Fan fic. How did Minato know what EI was thinking? He was walking away/retreating like he was supposed to.. He wasn't even looking or paying attention to EI. Bee didn't react to minatos strike because Minato didn't strike. If Minato struck him the moment he teleported, bee would be dead. Juubi Jins can't even react to being marked, so let's not pretend bee can. Minato was never going to hurt bee, it was just a threat.

He teleported to bee because EI wouldn't back off, so he used bee as a way o scare EI. Nothing more. Did you see minatos face? Perfectly calm, not the face of someone who was pressured. Not to mention there was no proof that Eis tactic would have worked, minatos technique is still faster than EI can move. If Minato was facing towards EI, he would have just replicated the same manoeuvre he did before and got on top of ei. You're using a scenario of a non fighting Minato while he's retreating and has already given up fighting. So your statement is irrelevant, next time use an example where Minato is actually ready to fight.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Fan fic. How did Minato know what EI was thinking? He was walking away/retreating like he was supposed to.. He wasn't even looking or paying attention to EI. Bee didn't react to minatos strike because Minato didn't strike. If Minato struck him the moment he teleported, bee would be dead. Juubi Jins can't even react to being marked, so let's not pretend bee can. Minato was never going to hurt bee, it was just a threat.
> 
> He teleported to bee because EI wouldn't back off, so he used bee as a way o scare EI. Nothing more. Did you see minatos face? Perfectly calm, not the face of someone who was pressured. Not to mention there was no proof that Eis tactic would have worked, minatos technique is still faster than EI can move. If Minato was facing towards EI, he would have just replicated the same manoeuvre he did before and got on top of ei. You're using a scenario of a non fighting Minato while he's retreating and has already given up fighting. So your statement is irrelevant, next time use an example where Minato is actually ready to fight.



well done my man


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> You still completely ignore what it was referencing.  You're kinda sorta applying a preschool level of comprehension right now. We both know FTG with clones is simply less effective when coordinating attacks against a JUUBI jin. Which is also why he said its " too slow" in reference to his opponent instead of just " it's slow" like in general.


Like I said, I didn't say anything other than what the manga already stated.
I think you'r stretching and reaching here.
We should accept that Hirashin with clones is slower than its regular application and move on.



> Not only did Tobirama react to Juubito,


He actually couldn't, that is why he was ripped in half.



> but he touched *his body 5 times before he could finish his flicker,* and we both know that flickers of Ay or KCM Naruto level are damn near insant.


Bold is baseless.



> And it's pretty obvious that he reacted to Juubito before he got to his body unless you believe Tobirama tagged Juubito 5 times in response to being ripped in half which is even more impressive from a different perspective. Regardless, those feats are enough to assume that Itachi gets mutilated in CQC against a clone.


Yes, thats exactly what Tobirama did and no it isn't even remotely impressive.
And no, Tobirama's clone gets treated like a fodder and gets dispatched within nano seconds.



> Of course he never fought Tobirama one on one as he would have murdered him. But I mean Juubito is kinda like a billion tiers above  Itachi do it doesn't matter.


Juubito isn't blllion tiers above Itachi in terms of intelligence and awareness.
He is a cocky douche who thought he was invincible and because of that he stood there and ranted and Tobirama capitalized on it twice with the help of others.



> Except Juubito also has blindside sencing, and he would still caught off guard by the CLONE of EDO Tobirama. Not like Itachi really has a chance here even if he isn't tagged.


Juubito was only caught off guard when Naruto & Tobirama rasengan'd his ass. At that point, they weren't even fighting, Juubito was ranting and he had no idea sage techniques would be able to harm him, so he thought he was safe..



> Tobirama was fighting uchiha on the daily. I doubt he's getting caught in Genjustu.


So far we haven't seen any Uchiha as procificent as Itachi with genjutsu. We also haven't seen anyone who has such unorthodox methods of casting it.



> He can even play it safe by merely using his sensory abilities in tandem with KB to ensure he's never actually hit with Genjustu at all.


Tobirama is not a chakra beast, we've seen him create a couple of clones and thats it. And his clones won't be very effective, so he'll sooner or later attempt to join the fray himself.



> *Amaterasu is also useless as its canonically warped off his body* as soon as it makes contact( if it ever does lol). Itachi has no chances.



Bold is baseless.
And yes it likely does make contact, given Tobirama doesn't have V2 A level reactions which A needed to react to Amaterasu.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 2, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I am looking at the majority of the people here claiming that itachi wins, yet i havnt seen one decent argument to support their claims,
> 
> and its even worse for those claiming that Minato beats Itachi, yet tobirama loses, it makes no sense whatsoever considering that their entire arsenal revolves around FTG and both of them have no firepower to even scratch susanoo, making it the exact same battle,
> 
> ...



I don't know why you're questioning why people support Minato against Itachi more than Tobirama, it's like you actually think they're the same. Some of you need to get this thought your thick, lacking comprehension skulled heads. Minato not only greatly surpasses Tobirama in speed(body flicker), his flying Thunder God usage is far above tobiramas. Read the damn manga, read the databook. Tobirama was only known as the creator of FTG. Minato got the name , the Yellow flash because of his mastery of the technique. Minato got a nickname based off of the technique, Tobirama did not, what does that tell you?

Tobirama doesn't have multiple variations for the technique, nor does he carry dozens of prepped kunai which give Minato a huge advantage in battles. He doesn't use the technique like Minato does. He wields single marked kunai and only has one other FTG manouvre. Tobirama cannot wipe out 50+ enemies in an instant via FTG, he lost to 20 afterall. 

So even though I beleive Tobirama wipes the floor with Itachi, it's not because he is the same as Minato, not sure how anyone can say that. It's because he knows how to fight uchiha and he has the moveset to counter all of Itachis just fine. FTG with clones is fine and all, but it has its drawbacks and obviously isn't very dependable according to Tobirama.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 2, 2015)

And people say that Itachi-fans are bad...




RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Some of you need to get this thought your thick, lacking comprehension skulled heads.


 Master Debater, I see.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato not only *greatly* surpasses Tobirama in speed(body flicker),


 More like a little bit.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> his flying Thunder God usage is *far above* tobiramas. Read the damn manga, read the databook.


Exaggeration again.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Tobirama was only known as the creator of FTG. Minato got the name , the Yellow flash because of his mastery of the technique. Minato got a nickname based off of the technique, Tobirama did not, what does that tell you?


 It tells us that Kishi doesn't plan ahead. Tobirama was just Suiton Master for like half a manga.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Who has better sensing+reaction pack - SM Kabuto or Tobirama?



SM Kabuto honestly.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> It tells us that Kishi doesn't plan ahead. Tobirama was just Suiton Master for like half a manga.



Except he still tell us that Minato is at least one tier above him in that regard. 

Minato's page


> ”!!?” (Volume 53, Chapter 503)
> Displaying astonishing skillfulness with “Hiraishin no jutsu”!!
> Overwhelming the Masked Man that is the mastermind behind the Kyuubi Incident!!
> 
> ...







> Hiraishin Ni no Dan / Flying Thunder God Level 2
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close-range
> User: Namikaze Minato
> 
> ...






> 飛雷神互瞬回しの術 Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu/
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu
> ...






> p. 270
> Konoha
> Hundred Leaf Collection #71
> 
> ...



So, yeah, he was still given credits for taking it much further that Tobirama and gaining the Yellow Flash nickname.


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## ARGUS (Jun 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Truth be told, I did entertain his experience in the prior wars and fights which would give him ample advantage over any Uchiha. However, when I look at Itachi, I also see the epitome of what Uchiha had to produce, especially someone with genjutsu prowess such as his.


I agree with this 



> As talented as Tobirama is, I do not see how he manages to overcomes Tsukuyomi,


he never gets caught in it, with his experience, knowledge, clones and sensing there is no way hes getting caught in a genjtusu 



> he has no bijuu and while he can fight at looking on Itachi's other body movements ? he can be ensnared with a finger genjutsu he caught Naruto.


He can fight with no eye contact whatsoever thanks to sensing, added wiith other clones that are around, reduces the probability of the original getting caught down to null, as well as the fact that these clones can assist in breaking each other free, or attack itachi during the time he is focused on one of the tobiramas 

finger genjutsu can be countered by clones or chakra flexing methods 
a 3T genjutsu level isnt sufficient here 



> If Itachi truly feels threatened, he could jump right into Susano'o and use it as plausible defense, against Hiraishin and then therefore use Totsuka for a sealing purpose.



He needs to use susanoo to prevent himself from getting tagged but even that isnt enough, 
tobirama throws a kunai or gets a clone to mark a stationary target like susanoo, allowing a direct link between the susano and tobirama, making it ready to teleport at any instant and leaving itachi wide open to get marked and finished,

the strain of using MS causes a drop in reactions and movement speed, so afterwards itachi would be at a much worse position 



> The best skill-set Tobirama has going for him is attacking with Hiraishin, where Itachi can be caught off guard. However, in order to do that he would need to have his instruments in place and have a well doctored plan, which isn't hard for someone like him.


Yeah, the plan isnt very tough either, 
and if someone like Izuna had susanoo (most likely he did) than its even easier 



> All it comes down to is who executes what faster,


Considering the fact that tobirama is faster than itachi, has the numbers advantage, has counter measures and faster jutsu speed in general, its clear that he will execute it first 



> if Tobirama is caught by the finger genjutsu or gets tripped up via a crow clone, I don't think he'll be able to make it out.


already addressed why that isnt the case 



> Likewise if Itachi is caught off guard with Hiraishin, he's done for assuming Tobirama's attack is able to kill.


Yes


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## ARGUS (Jun 2, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I don't know why you're questioning why people support Minato against Itachi more than Tobirama


uhh no, its in referrence to peple saying that minato wins but tobirama loses without any valid arguments,  



> *, it's like you actually think they're the same. Some of you need to get this thought your thick, lacking comprehension skulled heads. Minato not only greatly surpasses Tobirama in speed(body flicker), his flying Thunder God usage is far above tobiramas. Read the damn manga, read the databook. *


the fact that you lack the comprehension to even interpret my simple words just goes to show your stupidity even more, 
the rest is just Baseless wank, bias and exaggeration 



> Tobirama was only known as the creator of FTG.


and KB and ET, 2 of the most influential jutsus of the manga 



> Minato got the name , the Yellow flash because of his mastery of the technique. Minato got a nickname based off of the technique, Tobirama did not, what does that tell you?


By that logic, legends like Indra and Ashura had no names apart from just their actual names, 
does that mean that they are weaker than minato? lol 
zabuza is named the demon of the mist. now does that make him weaker than Rinnegan sasuke? Lol 



> Tobirama doesn't have multiple variations for the technique, nor does he carry dozens of prepped kunai which give Minato a huge advantage in battles. He doesn't use the technique like Minato does. He wields single marked kunai and only has one other FTG manouvre.


he has already shown the use of FTG<, has shown the use of FTG with kunai, has shown the means to place markings throughout the battefield, regardless of not placin them with kunais, and has the  means of clones who he can swap himself with any time and anywhere 
so again, get your facts straight first, before you try to make a fool of yourself 



> Tobirama cannot wipe out 50+ enemies in an instant via FTG, he lost to 20 afterall.


yet those 20 were known as an elite unit not jus 50 fodders 
doesnt change  anything since he canonically took out an MS user which is a relevant feat here



> So even though I beleive Tobirama wipes the floor with Itachi, it's not because he is the same as Minato, not sure how anyone can say that. It's because he knows how to fight uchiha and he has the moveset to counter all of Itachis just fine. FTG with clones is fine and all, but it has its drawbacks and obviously isn't very dependable according to Tobirama.



Yeah No,  both minato and tobriama are pretty much the same, 

minato has summonings and rasengans outside of their FTG arsenal and both of those are garbage to itachi here, making FTG the only relevant thing here, 
their foot speed is on the same echelon and both have sensing and clones, 

so yeah their battle against itachi is pretty much the same,


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

@ARGUS

their battle against itachi isnt the same though 

in 1 move minato can have 30 kunai to go to.something tobirama cannot replicate nearly as quickly. 

minato can also hirashin himself and other people to separate hirashin marks. something tobirama hasnt done nor can he do. 

tobirama has already explained how his hirashin is slower and different

1) cannot use hirahsin on the same scale
2) no S/T barrier
3) does not kunai spam 
4) cannot hirashin himself and other people to seperate marks. the way minato did to get tobirama and hirzuen into position. while he himself went to the other end of the battlefield with a mark he had there. 

tobirama doesnt loose. however the manga has made it clear, minato hirashin usage is well above.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

that argument is stupid. It's just like saying Tobi and Hashirama are the same both can use the exact same jutsu, and therefore, Karin destroying Tobi's Buddha = Karin is stronger than Hashirama as well. 

never change ARGUS.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

@hussain what do you think of my last post
anything else to add in the differences between their hirashin
because i think that covers it


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

I am honestly surprised to the point that I can't believe it's happening.  
but, yeah, I agree. 

Though, I guess we can add that Minato's Kunais are stronger/heavier than the regular one. In addition, Minato's strike is really much more powerful than Tobirama's. Add that to the massive gap in shunshin between them since the battle is not going to be all FTG, but even physical speed is going to be a huge factor as well. 

Too bad we haven't seen Minato's long named jutsu. 

There is also the fact that Minato's FTG swap is on a higher level than Tobirama as stated in the Databook, so although Tobirama may have problems to use that jutsu with his clones, the same is NOT true in Minato's case.


I also believe Minato's barriers jutsu would play a good part, and we know that Minato is better in the tools department as well. Not only of how much he use, but
also of how fast he strikes, which Tobirama gave him credits for his fast striking speed.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, I didn't say anything other than what the manga already stated.
> I think you'r stretching and reaching here.
> We should accept that Hirashin with clones is slower than its regular application and move on.
> 
> ...



Idk of yore just being ignorant Rn or a straw man, but clones being too slow for Juubito doesn't equal clones being too slow for Itachi. I'm pretty positive anyone can the see the difference between the two.

He clearly could react to Juubito, you just didn't actually really read what happened. He could clearly react to Juubito he just couldn't land blows and then get out the way in time. It was one of the other, and considering he was EDO, he chose the former.

The bold isn't baseless if you can read the manga, and can count. Count how many places he tagged him in:  another ranged attack

It's not impressive to tag an opponent with flicker far faster than KCM Narutos 5 times during the actual flicker ? Lmao, go ahead and provide some reaction feats for Itachi to prove he can react to that or even close to handspeed like that.

That's your opinion completely. He canonically has insane reflex abilities in which he casually reacts to Amateasu and tags KCM Minato before warps. He was paying perfect attention at times, he just couldn't be perfect against FTG users all the time. Doesn't really matter though as Tobirama caught him off guard during a flicker, which takes away the awareness part.

I'm not even talking about that scenario. I'm talking about when Tobirama warps behind him and grabs ahold of his shoulder.

Too bad Tobirama doesn't even have to worry himself about Genjustu seeing as he has clones + sensing ability out the ass. 

Tobiramas a Senju... That alone pretty much clear everything here. But Kid Naruto was able to create more than 100 clones without Kurama . The inventor of the Justu can create atleast 5 good working ones in this battle.

The bold isn't baseless if you read the manga.  As long as the user warps right when hit, the Amateasu flames don't warp through space and time with the user:another ranged attack

Can Ay react to Juubitos flicker ? Cause Tobirama can.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I am honestly surprised to the point that I can't believe it's happening.
> but, yeah, I agree.
> 
> Though, I guess we can add that Minato's Kunais are stronger/heavier than the regular one. In addition, Minato's strike is really much more powerful than Tobirama's. Add that to the massive gap in shunshin between them since the battle is not going to be all FTG, but even physical speed is going to be a huge factor as well.
> ...



i agree. looking at it again their markings are different and for a reason. its entirely possible that tobirama hirashin is also slower. 

its a Space time jutsu. using chakra and seals...not silly to think they would be different in speed. 

minato kunai are heavier. I don't know about his strike being much more powerful though. 

btw what tobirama said about swapping will *hold true for both*. since it requires a weaker person i.e a clone to use the jutsu. which is why swapping with a clone would have ben less effective

If we go on the basis that hirashin uses chakra and requires a certain amount of it. then a clone will no doubt be weaker than the original. 

minato didn't by pass that by creating a stronger seal 

but by using kunai to spread his marks. this is why I believe he is no doubt better at it 

tobirama isn't even famous for it. he is known for ET and his water techniques. which I feel would put pressure on itachi. especially ET.

*AT everyone. btw tobirama hirashin is slower than minatos. nothing ridiculous about that. Same way obito kamui is slower than kakakshi's*

btw any thoughts on this panel people?

notice what tobirama says about  bunshin 

another ranged attack


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

When you look at the damage Minato's strike  did to Obito here, look how the blood explode out of him

compared to the amount of blood Izuna shed. 
another ranged attack
someone may argue that "oh well, that's KCM Minato, not in base", but regardless, Minato's strike in base 
was able to pretty much destroy Obito's arm and make it fall apart, and the same with B's tail.
another ranged attack


imo, Minato's physical power is superior to Tobirama's as well based on those feats he showed. 



> btw what tobirama said about swapping will hold true for both. since it requires a weaker person i.e a clone to use the jutsu. which is why swapping with a clone would have ben less effective



As I said, Minato's level with FTG is higher than Tobirama, so I don't really believe that his clones have the same problem. Otherwise, why would the Databook suggest that he took to a higher level if he has the same problem?




> 飛雷神互瞬回しの術 Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu/
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu
> ...



In addition, Minato was going to work with his clone to use his long named jutsu

so, if the clone has a problem of using it, then Minato wouldn't be able to use this jutsu with his clones. IMO, this implies clearly that Minato's clones are also on a higher level with using FTG.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

I'm pretty sure FTG is instant... But I mean the whole plan behind their mutually revolving technique couldn't have actually worked if both their FTG speeds weren't equal. That scan alone pretty much kills that argument: another ranged attack

I wonder if Hussain can provide the DB entry for that tech.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

I posted it above your post. The important part is this one to me



> "A dream combo born the instant two Flying Thunder God users come together! It’s a fearsome combination of the Second Hokage producing a spacetime ninjutsu and the Fourth Hokage taking this technique and pushing it even higher.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I posted it above your post. The important part is this one to me



But that's the thing. It only works if they warp at the same time and at the same speed. Which indicates that they have the same warping speed unless you believe Minato can actively control how fast he warps to equal Tobirama.... Minato's simply just the better user overall . His FTG isn't faster though lmao.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> When you look at the damage Minato's strike  did to Obito here, look how the blood explode out of him
> 
> compared to the amount of blood Izuna shed.
> another ranged attack
> ...



Base minato strike didn't nothing to obito arm. that was the rasengan from earlier 



> imo, Minato's physical power is superior to Tobirama's as well based on those feats he showed.



fair enough though. 



> As I said, Minato's level with FTG is higher than Tobirama, so I don't really believe that his clones have the same problem. Otherwise, why would the Databook suggest that he took to a higher level if he has the same problem?



because the clone is still required to use that higher level jutsu. 


ok



> In addition, Minato was going to work with his clone to use his long named jutsu
> 
> so, if the clone has a problem of using it, then Minato wouldn't be able to use this jutsu with his clones. IMO, this implies clearly that Minato's clones are also on a higher level with using FTG.



and tobirama used hirashin with clones as a main way of fighting. 

that doesn't prove they aren't still slower. minato long name jutsu is using 6 kunai and having a clone to completely cut off escape routes and pummel the person with rasengan 

his clone could still be slower as it is. it wouldn't make much of a difference against someone surrounded by 6 kunai.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

@like boss FTG don't have to have the same speed. 

same way kamui have different speed between users. and a clone using hirashihn will be slower than the original 

so why cant 2 different users have 2 different speeds if one is better than the other at using the jutsu ?

hirashin requires chakra and a seal. the strength of the seal would impact the activation of the jutsu and the chakra the user has will as well 

minato body guards , team genma could use hirashin but didn't have enough chakra to use it individually.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

> Base minato strike didn't nothing to obito arm. that was the rasengan from earlier



No, the Rassengan destroyed his arm, and he got it back.
Link removed
look at the last panel, he restored his arm, because the panel before it he did not have that arm. 
After he restored it however, Minato cut it down once again.



> But that's the thing. It only works if they warp at the same time and at the same speed. Which indicates that they have the same warping speed unless you believe Minato can actively control how fast he warps to equal Tobirama.... Minato's simply just the better user overall . His FTG isn't faster though lmao.



The only thing there is about FTG is its speed. How did Minato made it on a higher level if there is no different to begin with?
The thing with speed is we can't really see the different with our eyes, that does not however mean that it's not there.

Would you say Lee and Hanzo are also as fast as Tobirama and Minato because we can't see the different?

are they as fast as FTG?


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, the Rassengan destroyed his arm, and he got it back.
> Link removed
> look at the last panel, he restored his arm, because the panel before it he did not have that arm.
> After he restored it however, Minato cut it down once again.



 he did not restore it. he barely had the time. u can see the white zetsu goo on his right hand

and when minato stabs him the hand finally falls off. but that was because the rasengan to his hand had already done most of the work. common u know better. 



> The only thing there is about FTG is its speed. How did Minato made it on a higher level if there is no different to begin with?
> The thing with speed is we can't really see the different with our eyes, that does not however mean that it's not there.



minato took it to a higher level. his hirashin is faster. though as shown tobirama hirashin was still more than enough to get the drop on juubito. 



> Would you say Lee and Hanzo are also as fast as Tobirama and Minato because we can't see the different?
> 
> are they as fast as FTG?



fair point

hirashin is a speed base technique. even if its S/T it gets u from A to B

its also called a shunshin marking.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @like boss FTG don't have to have the same speed.
> 
> same way kamui have different speed between users. and a clone using hirashihn will be slower than the original
> 
> ...



I'll just wait for Hussain to post the DB scan for FTG. Cause I'm pretty sure it's instant which it's clearly implied to be.

I always figured it that a clone is slower with FTG because it's reactions and speed are inferior. But we might just have to agree to disagree on that.

Kamui isn't instant like FTG, so of course it can be faster.

Tobirama has enough chakra to use FTG efficiently , so I don't see the difference really. What makes Minato's seal stronger?


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I'll just wait for Hussain to post the DB scan for FTG. Cause I'm pretty sure it's instant which it's clearly implied to be.
> 
> I always figured it that a clone is slower with FTG because it's reactions and speed are inferior. But we might just have to agree to disagree on that.
> 
> ...



a clone is slower because it has less chakra to use the jutsu in my opinion. it doesn't have much to do with reactions or speed. since tobirama was talking about executing the technique and not the attack after the technique

FTG isn't necessarily instant either. in that sense. he is basically summoning himself to a mark. his method of doing so is simply for efficient than any summoners method. note sasuke was prepared to use a summoning jutsu to get Naruto to safety when juubito wanted to nuke the place

his jutsu is a summon as well. but it isn't nearly as fast as FTG is it

tobirama seal is weaker. 

what makes minato seal stronger. we don't know kishi didn't specify 

but note minato can use hirashin on a much larger scale for example and can use it on what his chakra affects. hence why he can open barriers and stuff. 

while tobirama must directly mark an object he is trying to teleport 

something minato doesn't need to do


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

if I had to imagine. this is my battle scenario

tobirama throws a kunai and preps hand seal for a clone. itachi counters and does the same pretty much

clone appears close to deflected kunai to strike. itachi blocks...itachi clone pops up close to original tobirama

hirashin swap, tobirama clone pops up behind itachi and uses water needles. Susanoo comes up and blocks that shit while squashing tobirama clone

original tobirama would have taken out itachi clone during the swaping. 

tobirama brings out ET. if possible itachi could try to steal control of them by straight up using tskuyomi on tobirama to cancel the technique. 

*I assume *that fails

totsuka must come out as the ET approach itachi susanoo. with FTG support 

 GFK comes into play and frankly in the simplest terms this is where I feel itachi dies 

he cannot survive that attack.


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I'll just wait for Hussain to post the DB scan for FTG. Cause I'm pretty sure it's instant which it's clearly implied to be.



I am not sure what scan you want honestly, but I posted the DB statements previously here


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

Hussain can you just give me the entry for FTG as a parent Justu. That'll pretty clear everything up.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

@like boss. go to DB 2 or is it 3. everyone got access to it 
just google databook collection part 1


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## Trojan (Jun 2, 2015)




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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

the DB scan clears nothing up  

seal which makes the jutsu work like kuchiyose to me is the important thing here

 loads of different types of kuchiyose. eg: snakes hands active on a punch moton. despite having the same principle as hirashin its still a much slower attack for example and with a slower activation


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

It's says it's not like movement speed but like summoning which is typically done literally instantly. I'm gonna go with FTG is instant, it even says it's instant like speed, and EVERYTIME it appears it's instant. That's pretty damn obvious.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> It's says it's not like movement speed but like summoning which is typically done literally instantly. I'm gonna go with FTG is instant, it even says it's instant like speed, and EVERYTIME it appears it's instant. That's pretty damn obvious.



it works on the principle of kuchiyose 

so does snake hands. and snake hands isn't instant


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 2, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> he never gets caught in it, with his experience, knowledge, clones and sensing there is no way hes getting caught in a genjtusu
> 
> He can fight with no eye contact whatsoever thanks to sensing, added wiith other clones that are around, reduces the probability of the original getting caught down to null, as well as the fact that these clones can assist in breaking each other free, or attack itachi during the time he is focused on one of the tobiramas
> 
> ...


Tsukuyomi takes an instant to be cast and his jutsu execution speed is the fastest of the two. If he opts to fight without eye contact, then he will likely focus on his arms/feet and can be ensnared in a finger genjutsu. Although, Tobirama can sense chakra, it didn't prevent him from taking damage in the war. 



ARGUS said:


> He needs to use susanoo to prevent himself from getting tagged but even that isnt enough,
> tobirama throws a kunai or gets a clone to mark a stationary target like susanoo, allowing a direct link between the susano and tobirama, making it ready to teleport at any instant and leaving itachi wide open to get marked and finished,
> 
> the strain of using MS causes a drop in reactions and movement speed, so afterwards itachi would be at a much worse position


Itachi as an Edo had none of these problems, he was able to use the Susano'o without a warm up period and it was is faster than Sasuke's EMS Susano'o. While I admit, Hirashin could be Itachi's undoing only until he is forced to use Susano'o and I don't see how Tobirama ends up breaking through to Susano'o or having a viable counter for the Totsuka Blade.



ARGUS said:


> Considering the fact that tobirama is faster than itachi, has the numbers advantage, has counter measures and faster jutsu speed in general, its clear that he will execute it first


I don't think it was listed that Tobirama is faster than Itachi, as far as I remember without Hiraishin, Tobirama is slower than Itachi.


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> it works on the principle of kuchiyose
> 
> so does snake hands. and snake hands isn't instant



Idk if those are the conventional summonings. And even then I wouldn't have a problem with them appearing at the user instantly , and then striking( which is slower). But the conventional blood contact touch the ground thing is instant, and im pretty sure that's what they are talking about


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 2, 2015)

I wondered how long it would take before Tobirama overtakes Itachi on the poll. He is clearly superior, just that more Itachi fans exist than Tobirama fans. But then again there are more people with sense then there are Itachi fans, so no Suprise Tobirama is in the lead.

Since Hussain posted DB2 scan of FTG, I'll post DB4 entry:

p. 270
Konoha 
Hundred Leaf Collection #71

"I put a Marking on him." 
Moving in the blink of an eye to where the Marking had already been placed, the “Hiraishin no jutsu (Flying Thunder God Technique)”!!
[Tobirama marked Obito, Volume 66, Chapter 641]

“Hiraishin no jutsu”, “Edo Tensei” and so on, regardless of the difficulty in their mastery and operation, stories about these jutsu continue to be handed down for generations to come. Such high-rank ninjutsu were created (invented!) by a certain expert in jutsu-development. It was Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama.

Inherited from Master to Disciple
Secret Story of the Creation of Hiden Ninjutsu

Tobirama’s developed jutsu were later inherited by a disciple, a user whose name was rising. Namikaze Minato improved the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved it together with the era. The future of “Kagebunshin no jutsu (Shadow Clone Jutsu)” and “Rasengan” is dependent upon Naruto!?

[picture of Minato]
Minato’s “Rasengan” in due time, to his son…
"Yondaime Hokage…!!! What a coincidence… what fate! A miracle ♪”


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Idk if those are the conventional summonings. And even then I wouldn't have a problem with them appearing at the user instantly , and then striking( which is slower). But the conventional blood contact touch the ground thing is instant, and im pretty sure that's what they are talking about



its a conventional summon like all oher summons. 

they appear through the person having a summon mark on their sleeve then punching. which makes them come forth with the punch

if no summon tattoo on the sleeves the user must perform a seal first. 

in any case its a summon like all others yet you cannot claim anko can use it as fast as orochimaru can for example 

and I mean the activation of the jutsu.

@ryuzaki GFK breaks itachi susanoo no issues. he cannot keep up it up long enough to survive in any case


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Reacting to a Susano'o Arrow pissed the hell out of him while V2 Ei dodging Amaterasu didn't surprise Sasuke in the least despite the massive speed increase. That's a notable speed feat and Tobirama hasn't shown the feats to replicate that with pure reaction speed (excluding Hiraishin). Him tagging Juubito was due to Juubito being preoccupied and leaving his weak spot unprotected.

 Tobirama never reacted to Juubito's flicker. He tagged him post-Shunshin and Juubito was mindless and didn't expect Tobirama to be able to tag him due to being sliced in two.

 Blind Madara in terms of movement speed and reflexes is faster than Tobirama because he has high reflexes even without his 3T and has Hashirama's Senjutsu to back him up. Tobirama didn't have comparable reflexes. With Hiraishin, sure, but that only requires a mental stimulus, that's not pure reaction speed.  Even then, the likelihood of him reacting to Itachi in a vulnerable position is little to none. Not only does Tobirama have to be cautious of Totsuka + Amaterasu combo that can catch him mid-warp multiple times, but also the fact that Tobirama requires eye contact hurts him here due to the fact that he's not an effective fighter in terms of sensing like Mu is and hasn't shown feats of being able to fight without eye contact effectively in Taijutsu like Gai has and CQC is Tobirama's main expertise. Counter that and you're fucked. 



> He couldn't react to Ays flicker at all. You might need to re -read those chapters all together. He couldn't react to Ays flicker( which was the whole point of the Sharingan not being able to register his movements: alone) and then if you actually read the rest YOU'd notice that Ays appears beside Sasuke while he's STILL FACING THE OTHER direction as he clearly wasn't able to resister the movement at all. He was only able to react in response to Ays arm swing which is way slower than his flicker: alone
> Karin even directly says that Sasuke can't react to his movement and instead shields himself so the Raikage can't breach. That's all there is too it.



 No. If that were the case, he wouldn't have followed his movements as his head turned. Unfortunately, Ei left his field of vision because his flicker is faster than his eyes and head can follow. Had Ei's flicker continued in a straight path, he would've detected him. 

 That's further emphasized as Sasuke laced exclamation marks after Ei flickered behind him, so Sasuke wasn't caught off-guard and therefore was not a blitz. Itachi has superior reflexes compared to EMS Sasuke (Pre-Juubito) who has superior reflexes to MS Sasuke, so clearly, Itachi has superior reflexes to Base Minato at the very least and certainly comparable to Tobirama if he can react to Kabuto effectively without even faltering. Sage Sensing is a massive boost implied by Juubito and Tobirama lacks the ability of using sensing to enhance reflexes, so reacting to SM Kabuto and managing to slice his horn off implies Itachi has superior reflexes compared to Tobirama.



> His speed being higher than Itachis isn't proved ? You are joking . Blind alive Madara( who's flicker isn't even faster than Tobiramas) was able to almost blitz Sage Naruto with his speed , and S Naruto's reactions are atleast equal to Itachis. That alone is enough to put his shunshin speed above Itachis unless you want to provide some flicker feats for Itachi to disprove it ? In handspeed/seals, Tobirama was able to tag Juubito( mind you this was a flicker, so you can throw the uncontrollable part considering an mindless juubitos flicker is still >>> to KCM narutos flicker which means Itachi gets blizted by speed like that 3 times over . He holds no have) 5 times during a Shunshin. And he clearly initially reacted to the flicker unless you believe he reacted 5 times to Juubito after being hit, and before he could escape his AOE during an instant flicker. Those feats basically put his reactions, HandSpeed, and flicker far above Itachis. Deal with it.



 Yes, I am joking. Same as how you're joking that Tobirama has comparable speed to Alive Madara who blitzed SM Naruto implying he has greater than V1 Shunshin speed. Tobirama's Shunshin speed isn't on that level and has no feats to support he does. His reflexes are high, but we've seen slower ninja such as Kisame who are very reflexive. Furthermore, SM Naruto's reactions are equal to Itachi's? How did you come to that conclusion. I'm curious.

 Itachi despite being Sick and Partially blind flickered behind Kurenai and lolblitzed her. Unfortunately, the only time Itachi had his best performances were as an Edo and those were against opponents where a Shunshin would be ineffective, or wasn't needed. After all, Itachi's mindset showed that he wasn't keen on SM Kabuto or that Itachi would be unable to blitz SM Kabuto with Shunshin considering his reaction feat against a Susano'o Arrow.

 Tobirama tagged Mindless Juubito after his Shunshin and even Juubito wasn't concerned about defend his blind spot, even moreseo at the fact that he was mindless. I mean, why the hell would he react to an Edo who was chopped in half and furthermore, why would he care about Tobirama's attacks when he believed he could easily tank them and showed that he was capable of doing so.

 Also, SM Naruto reacted to Juubito once and managed to slam him with a Rasengan. Since SM Naruto has = reflexes compared to Itachi, then Itachi can hit Juubito. See how that works? 



> So reaching to Killer Bee Swinging a huge ass sword with shared vision through Edo, puts his reactions even close to KCM minato? I'd really like to see your reasoning behind that. Cause that's not even reasonable.



 Itachi didn't have Shared Vision, not even. If that was the case, every Edo Kage would've had enhanced reflexes thanks to Muu even though it was clearly shown that Mu was the most reflexive of the group (excluding Sandaime's RCM). Please explain how Edo Tensei would grant Itachi a power comparable to one of the most powerful dojutsu in the manga. That seems like a ridiculous claim.

 Killer Bee is very very reflexive in CQC, esp. compared to Base Ei. Him having comparable reflexes to KCM Minato isn't particularly ridiculous. After all, Base Bee can react to V1 Ei who KCM Naruto struggled against.



> You can't hide you're weakspots during a flicker. You realize that flickers above Ays level are instant right ? Like a KCM Naruto flicker or even Ay flicker itself happens in such a short time frame, that slower opponents can't react or even do anything. And then you have Tobirama reacting perfectly 5 times to Obito's flicker . And Obitos flicker is on an extremely high level considering its a flicker instead of just movement. You'd actually be hard pressed to find another flicker from a JUUBI Jin, so that feat is crazy and you need to know that it's crazy.



 You can with RCM. 

 Seriously though, Ei's far more reflexive than KCM Naruto and constantly uses Shunshin to amp his attacks. Even his RCM was stated to improve his neurological transmission to the point of far surpassing Minato's reflexes. KCM Minato having inferior reflexes isn't ridiculous when we consider V1 Ei showcasing superior reflexes to KCM Naruto. 

 Tobirama never reacted perfectly to Obito's flicker.

 Oh wow, I didn't know Obito's flicker was a flicker. Please, tell me more. 



> Cause at that point Tobirama would be killed Juubi techniques, he couldn't afford to be caught off guard by techs as he would remain dead. He also never really attempted to attack V2 focused Juubito regardless.



 I'll reply to this later once my computer stops lagging. I can't check what point you're trying to refute b/c of it. 



> Base bee isn't on the level of a JUUBI jin, he's tiers inferior so that feat isn't even impressive. Regardless bee outright dealt with his Katon( why would he need to move when he can just block it? And he was only out in that situation because of Genjustu) and forced Itachi to flee. Being forced to flee by base bee isn't close to being able to tag the 10 tails jin 5 times during a flicker. Massive gap there.



 Sure, but you're implying is that Tobirama can effectively react to a Juubi Jin though if that were the case, Tobirama wouldn't have relied on getting sliced in half and resort to tagging a Mindless Juubito post-Shunshin in order to land attacks. 

 Bee was still out-maneuvered as he couldn't dodge and was outright genjutsu'd without even realizing it despite Itachi giving him pointers along the way.

 Sure, but what you're implying is that Tobirama can react to Base Bee in a similar fashion compared to Base Bee. All he'd managed to do is escape via HIraishin, but Young Bee outright countered it at a weaker physical state, so ....

 Even then, SM Kabuto failed to force Itachi to flee and even got his head chopped off despite Sage Sensing and augmented speed that surpasses Tobirama's.



> It doesn't matter if it takes less movement. It's simply slower, and I already gave you an example that countered it. Does Bees tentacle move faster than V2 Ay because of less movement ? No so same applies here. And unless you have feats than your point is moot. His hand speed also has doesn't mean diddly squat when it's sussano that's moving.



 It actually does. Itachi doing one simple motion is superior to Ei performing a larger degree of motion. Itachi's Totsuka also covers a very large range, making it even more likely for end of the blade to reach it's opponent before Ei completes his flicker.

 Bee's tentacle actually extends all the way to his opponent while Itachi's Totsuka doesn't which makes your logic flawed.

 Fair enough on the last point, but Susano'o has shown superior striking speed as shown with Sasuke managing to "blitz" Danzo on multiple instances via Susano'o, so that just further supports my argument.

 If that was the case, then a flicker would not be the augmentation of one's physical speed via chakra, but rather than mostly relying on the chakra released in the foot + one's physical strength to push off that foot. Shunshin is not like that and requires one's physical movement, so it's not just one step. Young Ei clearly showed that he moved more than one step during his 2nd Flicker against Minato.

 Hidan's Sword and Tsunade's kick are far slower than the speed of Susano'o and don't cover as big of a range, not even close. Don't even kid yourself there mate.

 Damn, long post. This is what I get for wanking Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

I apologize for having to cut out part of your post that I attempted to refute. I had to cut some shit out because I surpassed the character limit. huehuehuehue


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

@NarutoX28 

whats the argument. summarize it please

are u arguing who has better reflexes tobirama or itachi?

if so tell me why that would matter? 

again summarize 

don't need long winded post. 

even if itachi is faster. tobirama is using the quicker jutsu. clearly


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @NarutoX28
> 
> whats the argument. summarize it please
> 
> ...



 - Itachi

 - It would as it would dictate how well Itachi can react to Tobirama (even w/o Susano'o) and even how  fast he can strike Tobirama as he anticipates the location he warps to.

 - It's very much needed if I want to address most of his points.

 - Clearly, but that didn't stop Young B from reacting to Minato's Hiraishin 

 - Simply put, Reflexes for Tobirama are important here as reacting to one's striking speed and Tobirama's reflexes while engaged in CQC affects how well he can react to a potential counterattack.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> - Itachi
> 
> - It would as it would dictate how well Itachi can react to Tobirama (even w/o Susano'o) and even how  fast he can strike Tobirama as he anticipates the location he warps to.
> 
> ...



fair enough

does itachi have anything that puts him reacting to juubito chakra ball mid detonation, grabbing it and then wrapping to juubito location. and then once again wrapping to another location for it to blow up against juubito 

note this is an attack that clearly Naruto and sasuke thought would blow up too quick for them to use shunshin and minato felt it needed hirashin to take it away safely 

please show me what itachi has in terms of reactions that put him anywhere close to that ball park as far as reaction feats are concerned 

Itachi cannot anticipate where tobirama will jump to because tobirama method isn't anything like minato's

how can he anticipate where or how 3 clones will move? or if they have touched any surface or flicked a kunai mid run? he cannot follow all of that 

also isn't attacking a sharingan user from behind already been mentioned as a way to troll them

not only has it been mentioned, but minato got behind obito by simply throwing a kunai

Another one of tobirama reaction and kunai throwing speed would be when he saved the fodders from god tree branches something even the likes of killer bee called fast. 

those branches were already on their way to troll the fodders before tobirama saved them


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## Veracity (Jun 2, 2015)

@Naruto
Reacting to a Sussano arrow pissed him how ? You got a panel for that cause honestly just sounds like your opinion. There is nothing to assume his Susaano arrow is > to amaterasu. And definitely no reason to assume Kabuto is even close to Ay in movement speed at all. But yeah I'll wait for you to actually prove this. As you just assume Sussano arrow is even close to the speed tier of the FTG users and Juubi jin. It's clearly not at all.

Actually I have proved that Tobirama reacted to that flicker unlike everyone else there. You keep on seeing Juubito was mindless and preoccupied but you seem to forget that obito was MID FLICKER. His full speed was displayed and he couldn't have given up any weak points given how extremely fast he was moving. You act like Juubito began his flicker, stopped inbetween Tobirama and Hashirama, and then continued through Hashirama. That's not what happened. His flicker was extremely fast and was one movement. He started at point A and completely a JUUBI level flicker and ended at point B. Mind you this JUUBI level flicker is tiers superior to KCM Narutos and Ay, and tobirama was able to capitalize on the moment and tag Juubito 5 times. I'm getting tired of hearing everyone pin that feat on Juubito being mindless as they sit there and foolishly look over the fact that his flicker is still insanely fast. Much faster than KCM Narutos. If he was standing still and got tagged by Tobirama while mindless then you would have a point. But not was Juubito moving( fast enough to go through both KAGE while KCM Naruto, KCM Minato and EMS Sasuke couldn't even flinch) but he was flickering. Literally so fast that's compared to teleportation. 

High reflexes doesn't = a fast flicker. Blind Madara doesn't have a flicker faster than Tobirama. Tobirama is implied to be overall faster than both Hashirama and Madara . I see no reason for his flicker to be inferior to Hashiramas given that Tobirama actually focuses on overall speed unlike Hashirama.

When Blind Madara blizted sage Naruto, he didn't have Senjustu at all. Why is him reacting to Itachi little to none ? I've already provided feats of him tangoing with much faster characters. Itachi is no exception, actually he's much slower than a JUUBI Jin, and all it takes Tobirama is chakra control and a though to evade his movements.

He doesn't have to cautious of Totsuka because it's much slower than Juubito( no good feats at all) and he doesn't have to scared of Amateasu because not only is it too slow to hit him at anytime, but it can warped off his body if he teleports right as it hits. And Genjustu isn't a problem, because Tobirama is using KB here as his real body is nowhere near Itachi. That pretty much just destroyed your argument soo...

What are you taking about ? Ay finished that entire flicker and Sasukes head didn't even turn one bit. That easily equals him being to fast for the Sharingan to track. Simple as that, I have no idea what you're trying to argue. And nothing is emphasized at all. Exclamation marks mean Sasuke lost track of Ay. If he tracked Ay than Karin wouldn't have said Sasuke couldn't track his movements. I mean she DIRECTLY said that shit. You can deny it if you want.

Give me feats for Itachi having better reflexes than EMS Sasuke( mind you EMS Sasuke at that point was terrible with EMS. I actually doubt his reactions were much better as nothing says that EMS> MS In reactions). Even then Sasuke was outright blizted by Ay( as per statements and feats you seem to deny) and the gap between Juuibto and Ay is massive. It doesn't cover the reaction gap here at all. Itachi is still massively inferior and that's a fact. 

Already explained why a speedster like Tobirama who focuses on speed should Atleast be as fast as Madara who doesn't excel in speed and hyped Tobiramas speed himself. But anyway, Tobirama had a single flicker feat, and that was traveling an unknown distance( we know it was bigger than 10m for sure though) and intercepting a black orb before KCM Minato could react. That alone speaks volume on his flicker tbh. 

How do I do come to the conclusion of Sage Naruto = Itachi? Because I feel like Itachi reactions( according to feats) than like KCM Naruto. Sage Naruto has better reactions than that, so saying Itachi is in that General area is giving him the benefit of the doubt. 

Idk why blitzing Kurenai would be impressive in any sense at all. But the end of the day Itachis flicker feats don't compare Tobiramas feat + hype. Tobirama not only has the feats, but he was hyped to be the fastest of his era. And I doubt that was solely based on his FTG. He is faster than Itachi.

Correction. Tobirama tagged Juubito FIVE TIMES during a shunshin *, not after at all. That makes a big difference too. And that's not Sage Naruto reacting to Juubito at all. That's Juubito getting hit with a Resegnan. He was also only hit because he thought they couldn't do anything to hurt him( shrugged off FRS + Enton combo) and because he wasn't even concerned about battle. He was having a full blown conversation.

Shared vision doesn't enhance reflexes, it just allows the Edo on the field to not be blindside attacked. He did have shared vision as Kabuto can see through every Edo, and Edo Nagato was in front of Itachi as bee attacked from behind. It's as simple as that. The Edo kage however we're spread apart. I don't mean Rinnegan shared vision, i mean literal shared vision.

Killer Bee was being parried by a physically weakened novice MS Sasuke. I dare you to compare that to Juubito. KCM Naruto also doesn't equal KCM Minato as Base Minato reactions and handspeed SHIT on base Narutos. KCM Naruto also made Ay his bitch at the last second of that fight so... BEE isn't even close to the KCM Minato tier.

Ay isn't far more reflexive than KCM Naruto.....just marginally tbh. The manga never said " far surpassing " Minato's reactions at all. It just said superior. And marginally at that via feats. Minato's base reactions are on a completely different tier than Base Narutos and the same would go for KCM Minato and KCM Naruto. KCM Naruto can react to V2 Ay and his reactions are close to his. KCM Minato is tiers above Ay.

I'm confident Tobirama could have avoided being blizted by Juubitos flicker. He just allowed himself to get hit( he was an Edo) so he could place those tag and FTG seal on him. He couldn't tag him and get away is what I'm saying. I also don't know why you think its was post shushin when Juubito clearly ended the flicker like 15 feet past the Hokage.. 

Couldn't dodge and not needing to dodge are different. And having the experience and necessary skill to avoid Genjustu is something Tobirama has and KB doesn't. Itachi never bested KB , but merely matched him( Itachi actually fleed) so in pretty sure you can't put him above base bee in CQC ability.

Tobirama could easily confront bee, tag him somewhere and FTG away without being touched. Which is what he does to Itachi.

Younger bee didn't fully counter FTG. He noticed Minato marked him and anticipated that single warp, after he hear AY yell out that he was going to blitz Minato if we warped anywhere on the ground. That's not like this scenario at all.

Kabutos reactions and speed are inferior to Tobiramas via feats. And I guess overlooked the panel when Itachi beheaded Kabuto lmao.

It's not a larger degree of motion. A flicker requires on step( sometimes none). And Ays flicker via hype and feats is > Totsuka. So there you have it. Except Itachi swings that sword much slower than ay travels. Let me ask you this . Do you think Itachi could have Totsuka blizted KCM Naruto( in the V2 AY scene)? Do you think Totsuka could have blizted the kage? Size doesn't always matter. Something smaller can be way faster than something bigger. Me swinging a sword is still much slower than how fast a bullet travels despite the length difference.

Why would need tentacles extend to its opponent but Totsuka doesn't ? 

List the times Sussano blizted Danzo ? I'm pretty sure they were all either airborn Danzo, or in response to Danzos offense attack doing nothing to Sussano creating an opening. 

What? A flicker is one step as evident  in the KCM Naruto scene, the first Minato scene and the Sasuke vs Ay scene. And even if it wasn't. It doesn't matter as Ay with all those steps is still > to Itachis Totsuka.

What feats does Itachis Sussano have that puts it > to Tsunade's strikes. And I guess Totsuka is faster than 7th gated Gais strikes too because it covers a larger distance.

So you didn't cover the second part? I merely made 2 posts considering I was more than 4000 characters over.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Oh well shit, I'm not even sure if I want to reply now.

 I do enjoy this argument, so I might continue later.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, Danzo did it after all.
> 
> However, Hiraishin doesn't determine one's reflexes which makes your post irrelevant to the discussion.



no it doesn't. however both hirashin users reflexes troll itachi's 

you know returning omyoton to juubito 

or reacting to juubito about to murder sasuke and Naruto with omyoton. 

KCM doesn't increase reflexes though. so yh both minato and tobirama have reflexes superior to what itachi has shown 

and thanks to a quicker to use hand seal less jutsu. they will be attacking quicker than him. always


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> no it doesn't. however both hirashin users reflexes troll itachi's
> 
> you know returning omyoton to juubito



 Returning Omyoton is impressive, but that was under a favorable circumstance and the fact that he has Hiraishin which easily bails him out whereas Itachi doesn't.



> or reacting to juubito about to murder sasuke and Naruto with omyoton.



 Good thing they both reacted dere.



> KCM doesn't increase reflexes though. so yh both minato and tobirama have reflexes superior to what itachi has shown



 KCM arguably does for the sole reason that your reflexes naturally will increase (to an extent) as your speed increases. That and KCM Naruto was able to defend against V1 Ei's Shunshin.



> and thanks to a quicker to use hand seal less jutsu. they will be attacking quicker than him. always



 But what happens when they have to attack Itachi after Hiraishin warp?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 2, 2015)

How did people come to the conclusion that KCM increased minatos physical speed. I'm talking feat wise, what did Minato do in KCM that was any different to his base self?

KCM doesn't increase reflexes. However it gave Naruto sensory ability, so I guess that allows him to react better, because he can better sense and anticipate an attack. KCM also granted Naruto incredible shunshin ability. That's what Naruto naturally gained from kcm.

Same can't really be said for Minato since he already possessed both those abilities. And feat wise, he got no upgrade apart from chakra increase.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> How did people come to the conclusion that KCM increased minatos physical speed. I'm talking feat wise, what did Minato do in KCM that was any different to his base self?



 Kyuubi enhancements naturally augments anyone's stats given how much faster Naruto became with just a KN0 enhancement against Neji or VoTE Sasuke. KCM is far superior to a simple KN0 enhancement, so it likely does increase his physical speed. Even Kurama's Chakra mixes in with Naruto's similar to what Natural Energy does when getting involved with Senjutsu and Sage Mode has been shown to augment speed, so an excess of Kurama Chakra mixing in with Minato's chakra would enhance his speed, no? 

 Furthermore, Chakra still is composed of two components, spiritual energy and physical energy and Kurama Chakra is considered to be one of the strongest chakras in existence as stated by Jiraiya in Part 1. Having an excess of that same chakra would give Minato a greater quality of a chakra to use which would certainly augment his physical energy which would therefore increase his physical speed. 

 What I'm curious here is where you got the idea that it wouldn't. 



> KCM doesn't increase reflexes. However it gave Naruto sensory ability, so I guess that allows him to react better, because he can better sense and anticipate an attack. KCM also granted Naruto incredible shunshin ability. That's what Naruto naturally gained from kcm.



 Base MInato and KCM Minato's reaction time might be the same, but his actual reaction speed will be faster considering KCM enhancement will allow him to move quicker, so his reflexes will naturally be higher as a result. His sensing capabilities doesn't really provide much of an increase in his reflexes though it certainly does help with blindside attacks or ambushes as shown against Obito's underground Kamui.

 Though yes, KCM will naturally grant Minato a higher Shunshin ability considering it did for Naruto.



> Same can't really be said for Minato since he already possessed both those abilities. And feat wise, he got no upgrade apart from chakra increase.



 That doesn't necessarily assume he didn't. All Bijuu enhancements have been shown to augment the user's physical capabilities and it wouldn't make sense for that not to be the case.

 Edit: Don't ninja me Rocky, I just finished editing my post.


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## Rocky (Jun 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Mind you this JUUBI level flicker is tiers superior to KCM Narutos and Ay



It's only a tier faster.

A & Kyubi Naruto were the top dogs in the Shunshin department before the Jubi Jins were introduced, so odds are they aren't _THAT_ much slower than them. 

God Tier speed was pretty all over the place anyway. RSM Naruto is ridiculously faster than Kaguya, and she's "on a different level" than the Jubi Jinchuriki. Gai was demolishing a more complete Jinchuriki than Obito (and Madara was faster than Obito before the Jubi boost to boot), yet with just _one_ less Gate he's apparently slower than A. Even 7th Gate Gai was somewhat keeping up with Madara. Everything is inconsistent.


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## Tainted Sun (Jun 2, 2015)

I would give the win to Tobimaru, seeing as how he killed Madara's little brother.


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## Tainted Sun (Jun 2, 2015)

It's just my opinion. 

Since we've never seen Itachi against someone really fast, it's hard to say who would win.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2015)

Tainted Sun said:


> It's just my opinion.
> 
> Since we've never seen Itachi against someone really fast, it's hard to say who would win.



 Base Bee and SM Kabuto are enough to be considered Kage Level speedsters, especially the latter.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

I'm confused as to why 7th Gate Gai would only be on V2 Ei's speed tier.


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## Veracity (Jun 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What's a tier to you?
> 
> That was largely the same for MS Sasuke, who could just _barley_ perceive v2 A's Shunshin.
> 
> ...



Maybe we have different definitions of a tier. And IMO Juubito could easily blitz Ay. No doubt about it.

8th gate Gai is tiers faster than 7th gated Gai and that is about logical. IMO all you really have to do is look at the level gap. He went from Around Base Minato and Itachis level in the 7th gate to as Strong as a JUUBI Jin in the 8th. I think you are underestimating the gap there TBH.

We different thoughts about his performance, and we usually just agree to disagree.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, Izuna was one of the first in the uchiha clan's history to unlock the MS.



 You're right.

 But how did I miss that?


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Returning Omyoton is impressive, but that was under a favorable circumstance and the fact that he has Hiraishin which easily bails him out whereas Itachi doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



they murder itachi from behind with a rear attack. if he doesnt put susanoo up in time

bar that he gets trolled 

note juubito needed to preventively prep a defense to block minato attack after hirashin wrap 

killer bee anticiapted a rear attack since he knew he was marked. u know because hachibi would notice foreign chakra entering his body. which is what the seal is


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

> killer bee anticiapted a rear attack since he knew he was marked. u know because hachibi would notice foreign chakra entering his body. which is what the seal is



Actually Minato's intension was never to kill B. Some people just have difficulties with understanding. 
There is not point of Minato schooling them if he was planning to kill them. Even the anime made it even
more clear that Minato stopped his attack.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

Fair enough minato stopped his attack 

for me the key to hirashin is even the likes of obito didnt know he was marked 

so itachi in susanoo is still vulnerable. marking susanoo is the same as marking itachi. its his chakra so tobirama will be linked to itachi

that ensures GFK hits itachi without him being able to do anything about it. Susanoo camping wont save him

anyhow u slice it. hirashin users are well suited to troll all who arent nuke types


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Actually Minato's intension was never to kill B. Some people just have difficulties with understanding.
> There is not point of Minato schooling them if he was planning to kill them. Even the anime made it even
> more clear that Minato stopped his attack.



He stopped his attack because a sword was aimed @his gut.


Fuck anime btw 
shitpuuden = / = canon.


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

Minato stopped before even he saw that sword. 
in addition, B was just preparing that sword behind him, he did not really move to begin with. 
Had Minato wanted, he would have killed him right there, or he could have used his SM to make his body much stronger, and kill him, while he survive assuming B can even strike in that position. 

Needless to say, a Kunai to his neck will kill without a doubt, but assuming B can do it, a sword to his gut is not going to kill him. Sasuke took 7 of those when B's striking position was much stronger. lol 



> shitpuuden = / = canon.


it's the same shit in the manga, but I used the anime because
1- it's already saved
2- it's make it clearer.

here
What happens?
Minato clearly stopped. He only noticed the sword in the next page, so that was not the reason obviously.
What happens?
Heck, he did not even care, unlike B who was shitting in himself. lol


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato stopped before even he saw that sword.
> in addition, B was just preparing that sword behind him, he did not really move to begin with.
> Had Minato wanted, he would have killed him right there, or he could have used his SM to make his body much stronger, and kill him, while he survive assuming B can even strike in that position.
> 
> ...



So you'r saying Minato wasn't quick enough to notice ? 

Chalk it up to his slow reaction speed


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

- that hard word- accepted. 

(Don't know why I always forget it lol)

Edit:

was it Concession?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2015)

The word you'r looking for is probably fanfiction. Because it is clear that B had the sword prepared and Minato couldn't follow through his attack.

The fact that you have to fall back on the anime, which is a different crew alltogether - thus not canon,  shows that the manga doesn't satisfy your desires


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

pfff, except I already gave you the manga as well. 



> satisfy your desires



Not really, it's just that some people are slow and need extra clarification. 
and since the anime actually has "animation" then that helps enough (at least it should)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2015)

^

Yeah those shits also added Minato flicking his wrist to toss his Kunai to the anime, I bet you think that is canon too


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> 
> Yeah those shits also added Minato flicking his wrist to toss his Kunai to the anime, I bet you think that is canon too



So what youre saying is that in the manga, that kunai just magically got above Ei. Pls do tell, how else did Minato throw a kunai above a full speed EI


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> So what youre saying is that in the manga, that kunai just magically got above Ei. Pls do tell, how else did Minato throw a kunai above a full speed EI



I got a chuckle out of that honestly. 
he apparently think the Kunai moved by its own somehow.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I got a chuckle out of that honestly.
> he apparently think the Kunai moved by its own somehow.



lol  magically moving kunai 

havent heard that one before

 minato got shin ability


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I got a chuckle out of that honestly.
> he apparently think the Kunai moved by its own somehow.





RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> So what youre saying is that in the manga, that kunai just magically got above Ei. Pls do tell, how else did Minato throw a kunai above a full speed EI



Once you explain to me how this kunai "magically" got below Tobi, I'll explain how that kunai "magically" went above A


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## Trojan (Jun 3, 2015)

Because of the gravity, duh? 
anything goes up, will come back down eventually. But for something to go up all by itself when it can't move. That magic. 

Also, looked like Minato's hand when he teleported to the tree
Raikage
it was opened for a reason.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Once you explain to me how this kunai "magically" got below Tobi, I'll explain how that kunai "magically" went above A



No clue what youre talking about. But I seem to remeber asking you a question first. So answer before asking your own question.


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## ARGUS (Jun 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tsukuyomi takes an instant to be cast and his jutsu execution speed is the fastest of the two. If he opts to fight without eye contact, then he will likely focus on his arms/feet and can be ensnared in a finger genjutsu. Although, Tobirama can sense chakra, it didn't prevent him from taking damage in the war.



Getting caught in a genjutsu is unlikely like i said due to clones and sensing, 
tsukuyomi wont be casted when the probability is heavily reduced due to clones, and when when it requires itachi to focus on one of the tobiramas, allowing the others to teleport him out of susanoo, fighting without eye contact reduces its chances down to 0 

as  for finger genjutsu, doubt thats some game changer, 
3T genjutsu should be breakable by chakra flexing and regular genjutsu breaking methods, 
genjutsu prevention methods make this null



> Itachi as an Edo had none of these problems, he was able to use the Susano'o without a warm up period and it was is faster than Sasuke's EMS Susano'o.


As an edo though where there is no MS strain at all 



> While I admit, Hirashin could be Itachi's undoing only until he is forced to use Susano'o and I don't see how Tobirama ends up breaking through to Susano'o or having a viable counter for the Totsuka Blade.


Totsuka is evaded by FTG no diff, 
as for susanoo, the only thing he has to either teleport itachi out of it, or dance around and outlast him, 

if he manages to summon an edo then GKF busts any susanoo variant bar V4 



> I don't think it was listed that Tobirama is faster than Itachi, as far as I remember without Hiraishin, Tobirama is slower than Itachi.



Tobiramaa managed to tag Juubito in multiple occasions, 
madara who nearly blitzed SM naruto admitted inferiority to tobiramaa in terms of speed, 
with that alone he is definitely above itachi in speed, since the latter has not shown speed to bltitz a perfect SM user,


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 3, 2015)

MS Itachi >>  3T Itachi >> Base Itachi >> Base Minato in terms of reflexes.

 Git rekt.


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## Veracity (Jun 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> MS Itachi >>  3T Itachi >> Base Itachi >> Base Minato in terms of reflexes.
> 
> Git rekt.



Are you joking or...? Cause that's definitely not true .


----------



## Rocky (Jun 3, 2015)

It's probably more like Any form of Minato > Any form of Itachi in terms of just straight reflexes. Not that Itachi doesn't have exceptional reflexes; he's just not known around the world for them.

The Sharingan may help Itachi deal with straightforward attacks as well as (or better than) Minato can, though. Personally, I separate that from reflexes. The Sharingan wouldn't help him against an ambush or an auditory stimulus, for example.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 3, 2015)

That's not a valid argument, because it seems like Itachi wasn't known around the world period. His databook entry even makes a point of him lacking renown relative to his status.

Ao and Shikaku speaking highly of Itachi's genjutsu capabilities doesn't mean they were widely known, given the Alliance had shared information at that point and they were both intelligence heads.

Itachi was so low-key in popular thought that schlubs like Asuma and Wave Arc Kakashi thought they could beat him, whereas people with actual knowledge (Orochimaru) knew they stood zero chance.

There's really no reason to believe that Itachi base reflex score of 5.0 is inferior to Minato's base reflex score. And Itachi has superior hype for reading his opponents and anticipating their moves.​


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## Rocky (Jun 3, 2015)

There's no reason to believe Itachi is actually Minato's equal in what Minato is legendary for. Itachi being a 5 doesn't mean anything in comparison to Minato who would have the same score. Since it's the cap, there's going to be bigger differences than people who share the same stat in other tiers, and there are quite large differences in even those (Kiba & Kakashi).

Itachi doesn't have better feats than Minato, nor do the people that know Itachi think he's some legend in speed and reflexes. They're always _far_ more focused on his genjutsu, which is what he's actually special for.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That's not a valid argument, because it seems like Itachi wasn't known around the world period. His databook entry even makes a point of him lacking renown relative to his status.
> 
> Ao and Shikaku speaking highly of Itachi's genjutsu capabilities doesn't mean they were widely known, given the Alliance had shared information at that point and they were both intelligence heads.
> 
> ...



tbh I would agree to itachi having better reactions than tobirama or minato 

however both have quicker attack speed and also have the luxury of being able to evade itachi attacks including genjutsu 

especially in minato case. 

itachi cannot cast genjutsu quicker than kamui wrapping speed. and minato got out of that just fine

while there is no way in hell itachi can cast genjutsu quicker than juubito moving full speed at 5m away from tobirama. who still was able to touch him in 6 different places 

So yh itachi could have greater insight and everything but as far as attack speed goes they leave him far behind. 

unless u think anything itachi does can straight up outspeed kamui. which is what minato did


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## Sadgoob (Jun 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There's no reason to believe Itachi is actually Minato's equal in what Minato is legendary for.



Minato is legendary for Hiraishin. Itachi is not his equal in using Hiraishin.



Rocky said:


> nor do the people that know Itachi think he's some legend in speed and reflexes.



His original hype involved jutsu speed faster than Sharingan tracking.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 3, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> No clue what youre talking about. But I seem to remeber asking you a question first. So answer before asking your own question.


The trajectory of the kunai. Thats what I'm talking about. And our questions are connected. Once you answer mine, you automatically answer yours.




Hussain said:


> Because of the gravity, duh?
> anything goes up, will come back down eventually. But for something to go up all by itself when it can't move. That magic.
> 
> Also, looked like Minato's hand when he teleported to the tree
> ...




Dude, we literally see Kunai passing through Obito's head, then Minato teleports on it a split second later and the kunai appears 40 - 50 cm off the ground. How did it fall down like 50 cm in a split second ? 

Tip : The reason why that happened isn't gravity.


Rocky said:


> Itachi doesn't have better feats than Minato, nor do the people that know Itachi think he's some legend in speed and reflexes. They're always _far_ more focused on his genjutsu, which is what he's actually special for.



Reacting to Kirin ? 

Also his ridiculous handseal speed. That hype is exclusive to him. That should account to something. 

But I somehow agree that Minato having the reaction speed hype should put him above Itachi in that regard from a portrayal perspective at least, despite not having any feat that puts Itachi to shame.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 3, 2015)

Hand seals actually requirement movement of the arm too. Kakashi said that Itachi could essentially do the movements above, but complete them in such a small fraction of a moment that he appeared to be  the entire time.

We've actually seen this speed followed up with forming bunshin and then using the flicker jutsu with such speed and synchronicity that even Hebi Sasuke's Sharingan caught nothing. And we know Itachi's flicker was enough to .

Additionally, throughout that introduction, it was made apparent Itachi was fast because the author never showed him crossing distance. He just flash stepped everywhere. He also blitzed three  Sharingan users at once, which is basically the same hype A had. 

Point being, his original hype was speed and the MS. You can nitpick and say it was limited to hand (arms, chakra molding) speed, but it really wasn't, and _sick_ Itachi maintaining a 5.0 above every other ninja bar Gai in the speed category in part two shows as much.

Hence Itachi (without the Sharingan) without the sickness that Zetsu said slowed him down would be a 5.0+ like Minato. And moreover, Itachi has the hype of being able to read people better than Minato, and thus anticipate their actions better (a pre-reflex.)​


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## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hand seals actually requirement movement of the arm too. Kakashi said that Itachi could essentially do the movements above, but complete them in such a small fraction of a moment that he appeared to be  the entire time.
> 
> We've actually seen this speed followed up with forming bunshin and then using the flicker jutsu with such speed and synchronicity that even Hebi Sasuke's Sharingan caught nothing. And we know Itachi's flicker was enough to .
> 
> ...



all true but when it comes down to it. 

minato hype and feats horribly outclass itachi's. itachi has never been even remotely portrayed as being someone who can do what V2 A does. yet minato can laughably out pace A any day 

fact is itachi got better reactions. but in terms of kunai throwing speed or skill. I consider them equal. here in lies the problem 

imagine a situation where minato engages itachi the way sasuke did. you do know itachi dies immediately should minato engage him in such a manner. 

all those kunai so close= instant blitz


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## Legend777 (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude, we literally see Kunai passing through Obito's head, then Minato teleports on it a split second later and the kunai appears 40 - 50 cm off the ground. How did it fall down like 50 cm in a split second ?
> 
> Tip : The reason why that happened isn't gravity.



Difference being the relevance of the the Kunai in question . 

In Obito's case the there was no use of the Kunai once Minato ported to it . Hence it can simply be ruled out as an art error .
In the latter scenario Minato need to get the kunai in to required position to launch the counter attack and hence it couldn't simply have magically appeared there for no reason.

What you said could've been taken in to consideration if Minato did the same in his encounter against Ei i.e attack with rasengan .


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

Art error would be why it dropped that quickly 
though i dont see why it matters. 

desperate excuses at its best. The kunai against A if it magically appeared then minato is simply more hax 

not sure if itachi fans want that


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Legend777 said:


> Difference being the relevance of the the Kunai in question .
> 
> In Obito's case the there was no use of the Kunai once Minato ported to it . Hence it can simply be ruled out as an art error .
> In the latter scenario Minato need to get the kunai in to required position to launch the counter attack and hence it couldn't simply have magically appeared there for no reason.
> ...


Minato could have easily taken another Kunai out of his pocket or take the one that was stuck to the tree, he wasn't desperate enough to grab the one he left behind. I think the Kunai needed to be above A so he could position himself on A's back.

Although my point is, If Minato throwing the Kunai was significant, then it would be shown and emphasized(verbally and visually, just like how the curved trajectory of Itachi's kunai taking out the shared vision to enable his ambush on Nagato). 

The point of that encounter is to show that Minato can dodge A's top speed. Although everything points towards Minato teleporting out of the way by the skin of his teeth, his open mouth, blank expression etc. Whether he simply loosened the grip on his kunai or flicked his finger or his wrist to send it upwards is completely insignificant. Not from a narrative or BD perspective.

From battledome perspective, Minato can flick his wrist/finger during the time it takes A to cover 5-8 meters on foot. Big whoop dee doo.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 6, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> And people say that Itachi-fans are bad...


bad, no. The worst, yes. Itachi fans think he can counter chibaku tensei on his own, that he solo'd nagato and kabuto and that he can one shot hashirama with tsukuyomi. Gtfo



> Master Debater, I see.


 no, i was born with these awesome things called eyes. So i use them to read facts instead of making excuses.



> More like a little bit.


More like:
1. Places a kunai on an ocean rock
2. Sets up 3 kunai around the juubis massive radius
3. Teleports the juubi bomb away from the alliance
4. Places the fourth and final kunai in position for the barrier
5. Releases the bomb into the ocean and waits out the explosion
6. Proceeds to converse in friendly banter with naruto and sakura......

7. Tobirama and his fellow slugs finally arrive, to which the former fastest of his era admits inferiority. In the anime, that entire segment was animated in 2 minutes. From the time minato arrived, to the time tobirama arrived... Two whole minutes..


> Exaggeration again.


Tobirama cant tear open holes in space and send gargantuan objects into them via ftg.
Tobirama doesnt have a reputation for ftg, never did. 
Tobirama cannot wipe out 50 plus ninja in an instant via ftg. No, he dies to 20.
He doesnt possess dozens of pre marked kunai formulas in battle, which adds versatility, better unpredictability/confusion and more escape options.

Its exactly the same as how narutos rasengan usage far surpasses minatos. Because naruto has way too many variations and uses. The databook tells us this i think two or three times that minatos version is superior/improved/more advanced. But you can choose to ignore it, not my problem.



> It tells us that Kishi doesn't plan ahead. Tobirama was just Suiton Master for like half a manga.


Excuses don't help you at all.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

^ Actually, Itachi would solo Kabuto. That was literally implied.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> all those kunai so close= instant blitz



Itachi can easily deflect kunai away from him and move out of the general area. It's more difficult to Hiraishin blitz him than other ninja for this exact reason, frequent clone feints notwithstanding.

Minato doesn't throw shuriken as close or in as high a frequency as Hebi Sasuke did against sick Itachi, and Itachi was able to deflect them all and make a clone feint while doing it.​


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

Itachi's hand seal speed surpassed SM Kabuto's and he managed to "blitz" Nagato's Shared Vision.

 A Hiraishin Warp + Kunai Blitz won't work, not when Itachi has Precognition that places his reflexes far above Base Minato's who's reflexes are only comparable to Base Raikage's. Tobirama fairs a lot better though I doubt his speed is enough to sufficiently hit Itachi, especially with quick hand seal speed, fast Ribcage activation (as shown against Kirin), and bushin feints/ finger genjutsu.

 But really, Base Minato gets raped basically.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi can easily deflect kunai away from him and move out of the general area. It's more difficult to Hiraishin blitz him than other ninja for this exact reason, frequent clone feints notwithstanding.
> 
> Minato doesn't throw shuriken as close or in as high a frequency as Hebi Sasuke did against sick Itachi, and Itachi was able to deflect them all and make a clone feint while doing it.​



sorry didn't minato throw 30 in 1 go? how many did sasuke and itachi throw? do tell 

minato got his marks close to juubito and juudara. both of which knew the danger of hirashin both of which have horrendously superior reactions and physical speed compared to itachi 

itachi deflecting kunai is entirely possible. it however only makes it worse for him. more kunai, makes a harder to touch minato. 

deflecting delays the inevitable. simply put 

juubito didn't deflect them btw, despite having been trolled by hirashin more times than we care to admit. no one should have a better reason to stop those getting close to him 

yet he didn't

@NarutoX28 hirashin blitz worked 4 times against juubito who has far superior sensing and precog compared to itachi. 4 times mind you! 

no reason it shouldn't against itachi


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 7, 2015)

Itachi needed help from an EMS User to defeat weak ass Kabuto 

Tobirama has already shown to be able to defeat MS users rather easily, and Itachi is probably not on par with MS Madara/Izuna. Kishi has made is pretty blatant FTG users >>>>>>> Sharingan.


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## Six (Jun 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> tbh I would agree to itachi having better reactions than tobirama or minato
> 
> however both have quicker attack speed and also have the luxury of being able to evade itachi attacks including genjutsu
> 
> ...



How do you avoid Itachi's genjutsu? It literally takes the briefest glance into his eyes to be placed under tsukuyomi or another genjutsu. 
Since when has it ever been shown that as soon as Minato fights an opponent he immediately blitzes them?
He literally always sizes them up, we saw that with A, Tobi and the 10 tail jinchuriki's. You don't just rush into an attack and that would be extremely out of character.
SO if we're talking a real life situation where plot is not hindering anyone, Itachi takes this literally very easily against the 2nd and Minato or most people as a matter of fact.
Since when has it ever been hard to avoid the slightest eye contact. And if for some reason that they fought him avoiding eye contact, that would play to Itachi's advantage giving them that sort of handicap.
Freaking Sasuke can place Deidara under a brief genjutsu from hundreds of feet away, lus Itachi has shown to place others under genjutsu without eye contact or finger genjutsu.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 7, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> How do you avoid Itachi's genjutsu? It literally takes the briefest glance into his eyes to be placed under tsukuyomi or another genjutsu.



Since the greatest and strongest Uchiha ever needed to subdue the Raikage to genjutsu him.....


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## Six (Jun 7, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Since the greatest and strongest Uchiha ever needed to subdue the Raikage to genjutsu him.....



Too bad Madara's personal preference and style is ninjutsu.
Secondly, there was absolutely no indications by Madara or Kishi that he was actively/solely trying to place the Raikage under genjutsu. He was beating and treating all the rage equally the same. Raking happened to be flung by the susanoo clones over his direction, he simply picked him up and placed him under the illusion.
If you're going to say he was trying from the start to get Raikage under genjutsu from the start, then you might as well say he was doing that for the age since they were getting whooped easily.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 7, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Since the greatest and strongest Uchiha ever needed to subdue the Raikage to genjutsu him.....



You mean the *clone *of the greatest Uchiha, while the greatest Uchiha himself was sitting on his ass and doing nothing.


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## Icegaze (Jun 7, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> How do you avoid Itachi's genjutsu? It literally takes the briefest glance into his eyes to be placed under tsukuyomi or another genjutsu.
> Since when has it ever been shown that as soon as Minato fights an opponent he immediately blitzes them?
> He literally always sizes them up, we saw that with A, Tobi and the 10 tail jinchuriki's. You don't just rush into an attack and that would be extremely out of character.
> SO if we're talking a real life situation where plot is not hindering anyone, Itachi takes this literally very easily against the 2nd and Minato or most people as a matter of fact.
> ...



genjutsu has never been stated on implied to be faster than things such as kamui or juubito guodama or juudara's

unless u got proof that genjutsu activates quicker than those 2,despite it being obviously quite the opposite then you gonna loose this argument

the only thing that can be put at the speed level of kamui or guodama is tskuyomi. which has been described to be quick and acts in an instant. normal genjutsu doesn't at all 

minato always starts off by either throwing 1 kunai, 6 kunai or 30. 1 kunai being thrown so far twice in the manga the others just in one instance


so if ur excuse is he falls because he is going to foolishly waste time sizing up then you are wrong

when has minato not rushed at a character

juudara he rushed in, juubito he rushed in (despite both being horribly superior to him)

A he countered because he knew A was going to play the speed game. 

every genjutsu is slower than kamui activation speed bar tskuyomi. So no off the bat itachi will have marks right next to him and will need to camp in susanoo or die


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## Six (Jun 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> 1. genjutsu has never been stated on implied to be faster than things such as kamui or juubito guodama or juudara's
> 
> unless u got proof that genjutsu activates quicker than those 2,despite it being obviously quite the opposite then you gonna loose this argument
> 
> ...




I'm sorry, I've been trying to break up your text so you don't get a giant wall but i can't. So i'll try to keep this brief.

*1* _noted_
_noted_
_noted_
_noted_
Read Kisame's statement then come back at me


*2* Herp derp,"genjutsu isn't implied to be as fast as kamui""the only thing implied to be that speed is tsukuyomi" herp derp derp derp Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu here. And no tsukuyomi has never been stated to have extremely fast activation time. The only thing that separates it is its ability to manipulate time within it. If he wanted he could torture you for 3 days and in reality only a second has passed, hell whats stopping him from stabbing you nonstop for a year and only make it seem like a second? herp derp derp. Like I said, read Kisame's statement about when Deidara looked in his eyes

*
3..*
Against tobi, A and every other he has spoken to each of them. Yes he's thrown his kunai but he's always commented on them.
"Are you Madara Uchiha" "So you're unruly A?" I could provide more if you like. Hell even that fodder who we first saw him kill with flying raijin in Karachi Gaiden

*4.*
Like I said, read above.

*5.*
No he's going to lose because he is going to make some form of eye contact with Itachi like every character who has ever fought another has. Everyone has some form of eye contact whether it be brief millisecond or a stare down. All itchy needs is a brief glance and you're instantly fucked. Read kisame's statement again
_noted_


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

Lol adult Deidara was pretty god damn stupid. I don't expect younger Deidara to be any better. Tobirama however, is tactical and
Knowledgeable af. He even spent years fighting Uchiha, and has lots of experience with them. I don't think he's getting caught by Genjustu. Especially considering he can negate eye contact all together with KB and sensing.


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## Rocky (Jun 7, 2015)

Sensing isn't a good substitute for eyesight.


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## Veracity (Jun 7, 2015)

Sensing alone isn't( unless you're Kabuto). But sensing + KB? That ='s a win.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You mean the *clone *of the greatest Uchiha, while the greatest Uchiha himself was sitting on his ass and doing nothing.



Nothing you stated changes anything


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## Six (Jun 7, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Nothing you stated changes anything



Thanks for ignoring me. Concession accepted


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 7, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Thanks for ignoring me. Concession accepted




Didn't even see your response since it was on the bottom of the page 

To your point, Kishi made it blatantly obvious and even went out of his way to showcase that Madara had to subdue the Raikage to genjutsu him. Furthermore, I am not sure where you are getting that its Madara's personal preference for ninjutsu. He used more ninjutsu due to the fact it fit the battle situation.


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## Ersa (Jun 7, 2015)

Tobirama will beat sick Itachi more times then not by outlasting him, he gets his shit kicked in by Edo Itachi though.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

No form of Itachi is stomping Tobirama or even coming particularly close. He'll have trouble even hitting the guy, and he likely isn't outsmarting him either.


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## Ersa (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No form of Itachi is stomping Tobirama or even coming particularly close. He'll have trouble even hitting the guy, and he likely isn't outsmarting him either.


Itachi's on the fly thinking and analysis is unrivaled in the series,. He figured out shared vision in a couple of panels while it took a veteran fighter Jiraiya and his two Sages took over a chapter. 

While I wouldn't bank on Itachi outsmarting him at first, as the battle goes on not only will Tobirama exhaust himself but Itachi will figure him out and outwit him. Tobirama is touted as a genius but his actual feats in that department are mediocre at best. He's a scientist more than anything else.

No it's not a stomp but if they fought ten times I'd bank on him losing ten times. He can't outlast this Itachi, he can't out-think this Itachi, he's certainly not blitzing someone who outperformed Kabuto-fight EMS Sasuke reflex-wise and his arsenal won't get past the quadraple defensive measures of Karasu Bushin, Yata's Mirror, final Susanoo and Edo regeneration. Sooner or later he'll tire, fuck up and fall for a trap.


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## Umbrella (Jun 8, 2015)

With his experience fighting Uchiha, particularly Mangekyo users - he'll certainly fare better than Minato. I don't imagine Genjutsu will be of much of a game changer because of that, and he should be well aware of Susano'o and Amaterasu, which are effectively useless before Hiraishin. 

Tsukuyomi is really the only card in Itachi's hand that Tobirama is unfamiliar with, but it can be avoided just like any other ocular Genjutsu that he dealt with on a regular basis. Itachi may sneak a win or two with it, but Tobirama should win the majority.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Well, since you agree that Tobirama doesn't "get his shit pushed in," I think I've made my point. Itachi probably isn't winning ten out of ten though.



Ersatz said:


> Itachi's on the fly thinking and analysis is unrivaled in the series,. He figured out shared vision in a couple of panels while it took a veteran fighter Jiraiya and his two Sages took over a chapter.



Itachi's best intelligence feats come from his strategy and preparation for Sasuke, not his tactics. Countering shared vision after just having seen B get caught by it isn't some next level feat to me, nor is deciding to attack Chibaku Tensei's core with big jutsu. 



Ersatz said:


> While I wouldn't bank on Itachi outsmarting him at first, as the battle goes on not only will Tobirama exhaust himself but Itachi will figure him out and outwit him.



If by "outwit" you mean take advantage of fatigue (which would take a while), then _maybe._ He's not tricking or outsmarting a man with comparable brainpower and _*far*_ more experience fighting Uchiha than Itachi has fighting Senju. It's just not happening. 



Ersatz said:


> He's certainly not blitzing someone who outperformed Kabuto-fight EMS Sasuke reflex-wise...



What does Sasuke have to do with anything? 

Being marked is game over, and Nindaime doesn't have to blitz Itachi to touch him. Unexpectedly getting rid of Susano'o with Hiraishin is an opening to lunge forward and smack him. 



Ersatz said:


> and his arsenal won't get past the quadraple defensive measures of Karasu Bushin, Yata's Mirror, final Susanoo and Edo regeneration.



Itachi can clone feint, but Tobirama being a speedy sensor (much like Kabuto) has me leaning towards that not being a game ender or anything. Tobirama's also likely a decent, er... "feinter" himself given he created the technique. 

Susano'o and its mirror can be gone with a touch,, so that isn't much of an issue either. Tobirama can't get past Edo regeneration, unless he can just undo the technique, but if he had a sealing tag that wouldn't matter. If Tobirama doesn't have a sealing method, then even Edo Zabuza would beat him, but I doubt that's your point.


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## Ersa (Jun 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well, since you agree that Tobirama doesn't "get his shit pushed in," I think I've made my point. Itachi probably isn't winning ten out of ten though.


I can roll with this.

I think they're around the same level but matchup wise it doesn't favour Tobirama.


> Itachi's best intelligence feats come from his strategy and preparation for Sasuke, not his tactics. Countering shared vision after just having seen B get caught by it isn't some next level feat to me, nor is deciding to attack Chibaku Tensei's core with big jutsu.


His tactics are not on the level of someone like Kakashi but he analyzes extremely well and he can read people like no other Uchiha. Even so from a tactical aspect what he's done is better then anything Tobirama has shown us.

I never said anything about CT, it was a logical assumption and a good example of on the fly thinking under pressure. It still shows he's one of the best when it comes to breaking down an opponent's arsenal. The only people I can think of with comparable feats are Kakashi and maybe Minato. Tobirama certainly does not have a place here with what we know.

Either way I think he's the smarter one here, combat-wise.



> If by "outwit" you mean take advantage of fatigue (which would take a while), then _maybe._ He's not tricking or outsmarting a man with comparable brainpower and _*far*_ more experience fighting Uchiha than Itachi has fighting Senju. It's just not happening.


Sasuke and Kabuto were both considered geniuses (with the latter having a 5 in that category) and both were read and outwitted by Itachi. I see little to suggest combat-wise Tobirama has the same brainpower, he's smart at creating jutsu. He's shown little in the way of analysis.

There isn't anything special about Senju other then strong life force and physical strength though if I recall correctly. It's not something you need to have experience against. I don't think Itachi not fighting Senjus will have much impact here. Tobirama is not going to fall for Tsukiyomi or Sharingan genjutsu with his experience yeah but I'd bank on Utakata and Dusk Crow Genjutsu creating openings if he focused on not looking into Itachi's eyes. I don't experience is a big factor here.



> What does Sasuke have to do with anything?
> 
> Being marked is game over, and Nindaime doesn't have to blitz Itachi to touch him. Unexpectedly getting rid of Susano'o with Hiraishin is an opening to lunge forward and smack him.


If Susanoo gets warped away...can't he just make a limb? Itachi showed equal formation speed to his brother and his brother formed a ribcage faster then KCM Minato could try grab a Bijuudama near his chest. I think you would agree the Yellow Flash powered by Kurama is faster then Tobirama?

Not to mention even if he couldn't...I can't see Tobirama tagging Itachi even with the element of surprise. Like I don't even think he's faster then V1 Ei. Sasuke reacted to that with only MS and Itachi showed reflexes better then him until he gained experience fighting Juubito.



> Itachi can clone feint, but Tobirama being a speedy sensor (much like Kabuto) has me leaning towards that not being a game ender or anything. Tobirama's also likely a decent, er... "feinter" himself given he created the technique.


It's almost like Kabuto's sensing stopped him from getting clone feinted.

I don't think it's a game ender either but it's just another layer of defense.



> Susano'o and its mirror can be gone with a touch,, so that isn't much of an issue either. Tobirama can't get past Edo regeneration, unless he can just undo the technique, but if he had a sealing tag that wouldn't matter. If Tobirama doesn't have a sealing method, then even Edo Zabuza would beat him, but I doubt that's your point.


They can be warped...but they can be summoned backed more then likely. Given Susanoo's formation speed it really shouldn't create many openings. 

The point of Edo regeneration I guess is that even with sealing tags Tobirama doesn't have many attacks that could incapacitate Itachi to the point where he could seal him. He would have to split Itachi in half like I don't think Edo Tensei zombies are any less durable as Nagato tanked V2 Lariat as a zombie.

Gojō Kibaku Fuda can't be used while alive. So yeah I suppose it's a little unfair as Itachi is an Edo but we only have 2 canon forms of Itachi. Healthy or "Prime" is a complete mystery.


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## Rocky (Jun 8, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Even so from a tactical aspect what he's done is better then anything Tobirama has shown us.



Go ahead and point me to the feats that are _distinctively better_ than what Tobirama did against Jubi Obito. If anything they're comparable. Tobirama basically led the way against Obito, figuring out ways to get past his defenses along with analysing his techniques and weaknesses. 



Ersatz said:


> Sasuke and Kabuto were both considered geniuses (with the latter having a 5 in that category) and both were read and outwitted by Itachi. I see little to suggest combat-wise Tobirama has the same brainpower, he's smart at creating jutsu. He's shown little in the way of analysis.



Kabuto and Sasuke were also both painfully arrogant. _Painfully._

Furthermore, Itachi likely prepared extensively for the Sasuke fight given that was his purpose in life, and I don't know if I'd say Itachi outsmarted Kabuto when Kabuto knew nothing of DeusexMachina-nami.



Ersatz said:


> There isn't anything special about Senju other then strong life force and physical strength though if I recall correctly. It's not something you need to have experience against. I don't think Itachi not fighting Senjus will have much impact here. I don't experience is a big factor here.



Whatever. Cut "Senju" and paste "Hiraishin user." Itachi has next to no experience combating the focal point of Tobirama's fighting style, while the 2nd could probably write seven books on the Sharingan.

If anyone's at a disadvantage because of match up it's Itachi. Experience is a _huge_ factor. If two fighters are comparable in power, then why would the more battle tested one not get the benefit of the doubt? 



Ersatz said:


> If Susanoo gets warped away...can't he just make a limb?



No?

He doesn't have two Susano'os. If his gets sent to Hokage Mountain, he has to wait for it to deform and crumble before he can call upon it again to defend him. This is why Gaara pulled Madara out of his to create an opening for Naruto's Rasenshuriken. 



Ersatz said:


> Not to mention even if he couldn't...I can't see Tobirama tagging Itachi even with the element of surprise. Like I don't even think he's faster then V1 Ei. Sasuke reacted to that with only MS and Itachi showed reflexes better then him until he gained experience fighting Juubito.



Prepared Sasuke ducked under A's linear and predictable elbow, and then surprised Sasuke got power-bombed into the floor. Surprised Sasuke _didn't_ successfully escape A's attempt to tap or grab him. Tobirama could literally just tackle Itachi.

You also underate the element of surprise, because with it Tobirama was able to put his hands on Jubito more than once.



Ersatz said:


> The point of Edo regeneration I guess is that even with sealing tags Tobirama doesn't have many attacks that could incapacitate Itachi to the point where he could seal him.



If Itachi's marked, then I'm sure Tobirama could just warp behind him and cut him in half before Itachi could do anything. There is literally no forewarning. One moment Tobirama's twenty feet in front of Itachi, and less than a second later, Tobirama's swinging a knife at him from behind.


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

Just 1 point. It was narudo who was figuring out obitos weaknesses and coming with attacks to counter them, not tobirama.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2015)

To be fair, for Itachi to be able to pull off Izanami, I mean complete the loop, he had to predict every move Kabuto and Sasuke were going to make, after he decided to close  the loop. I am referring to the point where he announced he'd activate Izanami and turned off his Susano'O. 

Which correlates with what Kabuto said about him, that he reads his opponents souls. I first thought it was a hyperbole but then I realized, Itachi is really that intelligent. Because unless you want to believe that Itachi closed the loop based on a stroke of luck, then he literally predicted what would happen and played his hand according to that.

I don't think anything Tobirama or any character has ever done in that regard comes remotely close.



Elite Uchiha said:


> Nothing you stated changes anything



It does, because you made it sound like A fought Madara and forced his hand or something lol.


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## Trojan (Jun 8, 2015)

The clones have the same shit as the real one.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It does, because you made it sound like A fought Madara and forced his hand or something lol.



No I didn't. I merely stated he fought against the greatest Uchiha ever and that Uchiha needed to subdue the Raikage in order genjutsu.


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## Kai (Jun 8, 2015)

Wow even the polls are dead even. One of the closest matches there is imo; both are highly intelligent, keep calm and analyze situations carefully, are both of an elite level within their clans, and have high reflexes. It can go either way.


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## RBL (Jun 9, 2015)

i voted itachi


he's more intelligent, handsome, and has more fire power.


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## Rocky (Jun 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> both are highly intelligent, keep calm and analyze situations carefully, are both of an elite level within their clans, and have high reflexes.



Indeed.

Tobirama should probably get the nod here though because of his familiarity with the Uchiha and their dojutsu. Itachi hasn't fought against Hiraishin, and in a battle with two shinobi so close that could be a difference maker.


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## StickaStick (Jun 9, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> i voted itachi
> 
> 
> he's more intelligent, *handsome*, and has more fire power.


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## Ersa (Jun 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Go ahead and point me to the feats that are _distinctively better_ than what Tobirama did against Jubi Obito. If anything they're comparable. Tobirama basically led the way against Obito, figuring out ways to get past his defenses along with analysing his techniques and weaknesses.


You forget that he had Sasuke and Minato alongside him the whole way. Itachi was certainly not getting any aid from KCM Naruto who used Rasengan on Nagato or B who is quite frankly pretty average in the intelligence department. Minato hailed as one of the greatest geniuses of Konoha and Sasuke are definitely more help. 

He never displayed the same level as analysis as Itachi in breaking down shared vision, Chibaku Tensei, Mugen Ousa, 

And just pure hype wise, we have shit like this, his 5 in the DB as well, Obito's praise for his wit and Hokage level wisdom at a young age.


> Kabuto and Sasuke were also both painfully arrogant. _Painfully._
> 
> Furthermore, Itachi likely prepared extensively for the Sasuke fight given that was his purpose in life, and I don't know if I'd say Itachi outsmarted Kabuto when Kabuto knew nothing of DeusexMachina-nami.


So was Juubito? I mean I guess we could say Tobirama and Itachi's feats are not impressive in which case hype favours the latter.



> Whatever. Cut "Senju" and paste "Hiraishin user." Itachi has next to no experience combating the focal point of Tobirama's fighting style, while the 2nd could probably write seven books on the Sharingan.
> 
> If anyone's at a disadvantage because of match up it's Itachi. Experience is a _huge_ factor. If two fighters are comparable in power, then why would the more battle tested one not get the benefit of the doubt?


Really? Cause apart from experience fighting the Sharingan that doesn't seem the case at all. Jiraiya's decades of experience and the Sage's decades of experience didn't seem to help them figure out shared vision any quicker then Itachi. Kakuzu's years of experience did little to stop him getting tricked by Naruto. I agree experience is valuable especially against the Sharingan but it's just that. Hardly a game changer.

It's made up for by the some of the best on the fly analysis under pressure in the entire manga. He thinks on his feet better then almost anyone else.

Certainly with the defenses he has, he'll figure out Hiraishin pretty easily.


> No?
> 
> He doesn't have two Susano'os. If his gets sent to Hokage Mountain, he has to wait for it to deform and crumble before he can call upon it again to defend him. This is why Gaara pulled Madara out of his to create an opening for Naruto's Rasenshuriken.


It'll fade away pretty quickly with no chakra around to sustain it. Considering you can add limbs to Susanoo as you please, I still think it's possible he can conjure a limb if the main body gets warped away. Susanoo is like a Lego set 

And If Tobirama warps away a clone, Yasaka Magatama beforehand Itachi won't even be surprised. He may even connect the dots with Hirashin and S/T barrier honestly, I wouldn't even be surprised.



> Prepared Sasuke ducked under A's linear and predictable elbow, and then surprised Sasuke got power-bombed into the floor. Surprised Sasuke _didn't_ successfully escape A's attempt to tap or grab him. Tobirama could literally just tackle Itachi.


You're assuming Tobirama is faster then Ei.

Or that Itachi can't clone feint him there, if matured Sharingan can't read his hand seals I'm not sold on Tobirama doing it. I mean Kage Bunshin is one seal...and Itachi has one of the fastest handseal speed in the series.

And you're also assuming Itachi reflexes are on par with MS Sauce when the gap there is also considerable. Unless you want to argue MS Sauce > Kabuto fight EMS Sauce but that's your choice 



> You also underate the element of surprise, because with it Tobirama was able to put his hands on Jubito more than once.


It gives one opening. 

He might not even warp the right thing, maybe he'll warp the mirror or a Susanoo limb first. Who knows...but once that small opening is gone his chances of winning are close to zero. He'll get tired fending off clones, Amaterasu, Susanoo while Itachi reads him like a book and starts planning.


> If Itachi's marked, then I'm sure Tobirama could just warp behind him and cut him in half before Itachi could do anything. There is literally no forewarning. One moment Tobirama's twenty feet in front of Itachi, and less than a second later, Tobirama's swinging a knife at him from behind.


If he couldn't even come close to cutting Izuna in half how can he cut in Itachi in half? Has Izuna got B or A durability now? I'd argue Itachi has better durability feats then him actually. 

Tobirama doesn't have Tsunade/Ei level strength nor access to sage enhancements and senjutsu-chakra blades. He'll struggle to sufficiently damage Itachi to the point where he can seal him.

I mean_ Suiton: Suidanha _maybe but like that's like 10 seals and he's facing a Uchiha with top tier reflexes, good luck with that.


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

> Law Trafalgar said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, I've been trying to break up your text so you don't get a giant wall but i can't. So i'll try to keep this brief.
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> who has been instantly fucked by itachi basic genjutsu?



Keeping in mind Itachi almost exclusively fights characters with _heavy_ genjutsu resistance, like Bee, Nagato, Sasuke, Kakashi, Sage Kabuto, etc. There have been a few he's bested in base:

1. Deidara (Mid Kage.)

2. Orochimaru (Mid Kage.)

3. Wind Naruto (Low Kage.)

Given Itachi's hype and the above feats, it's kind of ridiculous to assume anybody above Low Kage can handle his genjutsu skill just because. Even Sage Kabuto wasn't going to risk it.​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Yeah, Sage Kabuto(medic, sensor, sage, genjutsu user, summoner) not taking any chances and choosing to fight blind is a good enough indicator.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Yeah, Sage Kabuto(medic, sensor, sage, genjutsu user, summoner) not taking any chances and choosing to fight blind is a good enough indicator.



It was 2 vs 1 against two highly akilled MS users and itachi was immortal and tireless edo tensei. Not surprsied kabuto tdidnt take his chances.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> > slowpoke
> >
> > the time it takes or took for itachi to have deidara attempt suicide is what I am talking about. the time it takes for the genjutsu to have any infulencial effect. not the time it takes to catch the person.
> >
> ...


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## Veracity (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Yeah, Sage Kabuto(medic, sensor, sage, genjutsu user, summoner) not taking any chances and choosing to fight blind is a good enough indicator.



Honestly not a hold indicator of anything. If you have the ability to fight perfectly without eyesight , why risk being caught in Genjustu ? It could have been Kurenai, and using that method would have been the safest.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Honestly not a hold indicator of anything. If you have the ability to fight perfectly without eyesight , why risk being caught in Genjustu ? It could have been Kurenai, and using that method would have been the safest.


He blinded himself just to not go against Itachi's genjutsu. How much clearer does Kishi have to make this.
Honestly you guys are just reaching, if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it must be a dog for you right?


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> Wow even the polls are dead even. One of the closest matches there is imo; both are highly intelligent, keep calm and analyze situations carefully, are both of an elite level within their clans, and have high reflexes. It can go either way.



The sole fact that Tobirama is leading the poll when he barely has a fraction of the time itachi got should really be more than enough to indicate that he is superior. 

Well, at least if we take it from a poll perspective because otherwise, that does not really mean anything.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

I actually  find this funny, you haters go out of your way to make Itachi look as weak as possible in the battledome, yet when Kishi goes against you in the manga, he is suddenly protected by the plot or is a mary sue. lmao damned if you do damned if you don't. I'm done arguing with you guys, i'll just let kit do all the talking


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The sole fact that Tobirama is leading the poll when he barely has a fraction of the time itachi got



Do you _really_ think Kishi would have Itachi lose to Tobirama?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Do you _really_ think Kishi would have Itachi lose to Tobirama?



Yes!
Kishi didnt mind tobirama attempting to attack ems sasuke, even sasuke was looking worried, to the point jugo had to come in to protect him. Nor did he mind tobirma attacking sm rinnegan madara, even madara had to compliment tobirama about his speed and ability to catch his oppiennts off guard. And madara had to confess that it was because of his new powers and tobiramas weakened edo state that he won so easily. 

Honeslty, itachi is not as strong as you think. He has poor stamina, and senju are superior to uchiha. Always have. Tobirama more than anybody outside the uchiha clan, knows how to fight them and about their eyes.

Its actually hilarious that you think kishi wouldnt let tobirama win, thats the mentality of an itachi fan i guess. I mean what hussein said was so true . Tobirama with just his few feats is leading a poll against someone like itachi who has showcased feat upon feat. Thats no coincidence, or because people are "hating", its just people using logic. The guys fighting style is similar to minatos, and we all know what the minato vs itachi poll looks like . Kishi called the hokages his strongest soldiers, they aren't some fodder that itachi is used to dealing with,


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

> Do you really think Kishi would have Itachi lose to Tobirama?


Most likely yes. It has been made clear that Senju > uchiha, and FTG users > MS users. Only his fans who think
he is somehow special and what applies to others do not apply to him, even tho he is possibly the weakest out the main uchiha characters we have seen thus far.


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## Rocky (Jun 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Do you _really_ think Kishi would have Itachi lose to Tobirama?



I wouldn't find it crazy to see. Tobirama beat Izuna and grew up killing Uchiha, so I find him to be one of the characters best suited for fighting Itachi.

Then again, if Kishi is allowed to write a bunch of spin-off fights without having to worry about plot, then I don't know if I see Itachi losing to even Current Naruto.


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I actually  find this funny, you haters go out of your way to make Itachi look as weak as possible in the battledome, yet when Kishi goes against you in the manga, he is suddenly protected by the plot or is a mary sue. lmao damned if you do damned if you don't. I'm done arguing with you guys, i'll just let kit do all the talking



And I find what you said is ironic really. Kishi in the manga made specific cases and statements regarding itachi's power. However, the regular itachi's fans brain work on something along those lines

1- If itachi said something to fap over himself and jutsu, then it's good to go. Regardless if it has some shitty ass feats and fail every time (Amatersu is an example), or if it was used against 1 character in part 1 which is Tsuki. 

2- If itachi said, or something else said something against him, or decreases of his level (in his fanboy's eyes), then it's simply a lie, and we can never take it seriously. 

that's how I usually see the itachi's fanboys' brains work in the past decade.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Most likely yes. It has been made clear that Senju > uchiha, and FTG users > MS users. Only his fans who think
> he is somehow special



Tobirama < Madara was a known fact. 

So Senju < Uchiha in that case.

So your generalization isn't _always_ true.

Which means you have to engage in some critical thinking.

When you do that, you'll see Itachi's better than Izuna, and Tobirama.



Hussain said:


> Only his fans who think he is somehow special.



You don't think Kishi thinks Itachi is special?



Rocky said:


> I wouldn't find it crazy to see. Tobirama beat Izuna and grew up killing Uchiha, so I find him to be one of the characters best suited for fighting Itachi.



Killing fodder Uchiha is pretty negligible before the elites.

Nothing really indicates Izuna was more exceptional than Sasuke against Bee.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Honestly not a hold indicator of anything. If you have the ability to fight perfectly without eyesight , why risk being caught in Genjustu ? It could have been Kurenai, and using that method would have been the safest.


Except it wasn't stated Kabuto can fight _perfectly_ without eyesight. It was stated that sensing isn't as good as using your eyes by Jiraiya. Then there is Kabuto's arrogance to consider. He was boasting that his pack of stolen powers makes him superior to Uchihas. Yet didn't even dare to challenge Itachi's genjutsu directly.


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## Rocky (Jun 9, 2015)

I don't really remember the details, but wasn't Kabuto afraid of Tsukuyomi? That was the technique Itachi wanted to get him with.


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

> Hashirama > Madara > Tobirama > Izuna
> 
> Senju > Uchiha > Senju > Uchiha


Pretty irrelevant really. 

Hashirama is the head of the Senju clan, so his rival was the head of the uchiha clan. Tobirama is the right arm of Hashirama, was superior to the right arm of madara. You can't compare itachi to madara in any way, shape or form. He is to be compared to another MS user such as himself. 


From what Tobirama said when he saw Sasuke's Enton, it's heavily implied that Izuna has enton as well, and since any 2 MS will give you a Susanoo, it also very likely that Izuna had it as well. In addition to that, unlike itachi, none of the other MS users were portrayed to have illness or low amount of chakra like him, so the odds of them being his superiors is really much better.

Needless to say, even if we assumed that itachi is somehow better, then there is really nothing indicates that he is like several tiers above them or superior to them, quite the opposite really. To the point that Kishi gave Shisui a Susanoo, he made him the strongest genjutsu user, hyped for his shunshin, and gave him the crows as well in the databook and 3 elements. If Kishi was thinking of itachi to be so precious to him that he get terrified of thinking that someone might be better or stronger than him, he wouldn't have given Shisui all of those hype, and jutsu. Heck, they went as far as telling us flat out that Shisui is stronger than him. 

from all of that, I honestly see itachi is clearly inferior to Madara, Obito, Sasuke, and Shisui. It's just so happened that Izuna got absolutly no amount of screen time, but the databook hyped him to be Tobirama's rival which can be easily understood as well. 

At least that's how I see it. 



Rocky said:


> I don't really remember the details, but wasn't Kabuto afraid of Tsukuyomi? That was the technique Itachi wanted to get him with.



better safe than sorry.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> From what Tobirama said when he saw Sasuke's Enton, it's heavily implied that Izuna has enton as well



Or Madara.



Hussain said:


> and since any 2 MS will give you a Susanoo, it also very likely that Izuna had it as well.



Obito said Susano'o was rare even in MS users.

And we never saw Izuna use any MS jutsu.

For all we know, he was like MS Sasuke against Bee.

We certainly didn't see black flames or Susano'o when Tobirama killed him.



Hussain said:


> Needless to say, even if we assumed that itachi is somehow better



You don't need to assume.

Itachi's intellect and ninja status was blatantly portrayed as superior.

Izuna, on the other hand, is a nobody as far as Kishi was concerned.

Tobirama beat a nobody. That doesn't mean he beats Itachi.



Hussain said:


> To the point that Kishi gave Shisui a Susanoo



Is that canon?

Because I know that same segment had Itachi and Shisui tied in their matches.

_Kid_ Itachi and Shisui tied in their matches.

Meaning Itachi +years would be heavily superior.


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## Kai (Jun 9, 2015)

Equating MS users in power level is pretty much a fallacy under any circumstance. Somehow the fallacy isn't as obvious to some people until they see it being done on another group of characters.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

The idea that Izuna > Itachi is unfounded, but the idea that Itachi > Izuna is equally unfounded. We simply don't know


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 10, 2015)

The fact that Izuna was fighting constantly and sparring against the greatest Uchiha ever for years is pretty good indication he was at the least as strong as Itachi.


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## NarutoIndra (Jun 16, 2015)

Crows win this for Itachi. Even if Tobirama has faced many Uchiha's in the past, there's no reason to assume that he's ever faced someone at Itachi's Genjutsu calibre. Crows can scatter the area and put all of Tobirama's clones into Genjutsu (yes clones can be put into Genjutsu as Itachi has shown in the past). Tobirama does not scatter kunais in the area if it's IC, OC Tobirama with kunais scattered still loses because the crows can await him at the various markings.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The fact that Izuna was fighting constantly and sparring against the greatest Uchiha ever for years is pretty good indication he was at the least as strong as Itachi.


I really doubt that Madara was fighting seriously against Izuna in a sparring match. We also don't know how strong Madara was back then. And here's the thing I'm not saying Izuna is weaker than Itachi, I'm just saying we don't know. We literally have no way to evaluate the guy, aside from he was strong.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The idea that Izuna > Itachi is unfounded, but the idea that Itachi > Izuna is equally unfounded. We simply don't know



Except feats and hype support Itachi.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Feats? Sure, Izuna has none.
but how does hype put him over Izuna?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Feats? Sure, Izuna has none.
> but how does hype put him over Izuna?



Izuna has zero feats and no hype other than being second-in-command after his brother (as the only other Uchiha with the MS.) We don't know if he had any MS jutsu awakened, let alone Susano'o. 

There's no reason to believe that Izuna's superior to MS Sasuke against Bee (before Sasuke awakened Amaterasu,) because we only have one image of Izuna getting pwned w/o Susano'o or flames.

Itachi had mastery of all of his eye jutsu. He could control time in Tsukuyomi, instantly incinerate fireproof flesh with Amaterasu, and his Susano'o was enhanced with Rikudo weapon.

Outside of his eyes, he had massive genjutsu control, genjutsu control undetectable to sensors, superhuman jutsu speed, soul-reading perception, entire-fight-planning intelligence, etc.​


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

That's cool and all, but it does not really tell us that he is above this or that. In addition, you know well that this is a false hype


> massive genjutsu control that's undetectable to sensors


and it was zetsu, not itachi.

As for speed, well, guess what? Izuna was fighting the fastest man in their time. 
and Tobirama is fairly smart. Itachi knew how to read Kabuto because they were the same. Both were spies, and
both are arrogants, and overestimating themselves. I believe itachi did mention all of that, no? 



> Izuna has no hype other than being inferior to his brother.


Well, he has a hype that he is on the same level as Tobirama. Also, apparently he has Enton as well judging of
Tobirama's statement when he saw Sasuke's Enton.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> That's cool and all, but it does not really tell us that he is above this or that.



Point being, Itachi has hype, and Izuna doesn't.



Hussain said:


> and it was zetsu, not itachi.



Ao hyped Itachi to control large numbers without sensor detection.



Hussain said:


> As for speed, well, guess what? Izuna was fighting the fastest man in their time.



And from the looks of it, he handled it as well as Shikamaru would.



Hussain said:


> Itachi knew how to read Kabuto because they were the same.



Kabuto hyped Itachi to read souls and use it in battle.



Hussain said:


> Well, he has a hype that he is on the same level as Tobirama.



What? He was killed by Tobirama and Tobirama showed no wounds.



Hussain said:


> Also, apparently he has Enton as well judging of
> Tobirama's statement when he saw Sasuke's Enton.



Or Madara's Enton. There were no black flames around when Izuna died.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Except feats


Feats support P1-Konohamaru > the Beyond Kaguya "level" threat Sasuke's wetting his pants over right now. Doesn't mean jack shit.



> and hype support Itachi.


"Both awakened to Mangekyou Sharingan, the siblings were prodigiously talented."
"Ranking next to Madara's true strength, Izuna accomplished an enormous amount of military achievements"
"Overflowing with talent in Kenjutsu" "Nindaime Tobirama's equal in true strength"

Izuna has huge amount of hype as well.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

> [=Strategoob;53805051]Point being, Itachi has hype, and Izuna doesn't.


I know that itachi has hype. My point is, having hype alone (especially when it does not have anything to do with the other character) Is not going to be enough to determine that itachi's superiority. Especially when that hype has nothing to do with power to begin with. 


> Ao hyped Itachi to control large numbers without sensor detection.


and he was wrong because it was Zetsu all alone. 



> And from the looks of it, he handled it as well as Shikamaru would.


At the end yes. However, they were fighting since their childhood.


> Kabuto hyped Itachi to read souls and use it in battle.


and itachi fixed that by the reasons I already gave you. I'll probably go back and bring the panels tho if they help. 



> What? He was killed by Tobirama and Tobirama showed no wounds.


Well, I have no clue what happened in the battle, but you were speaking about hype, and that is his hype for you. 



> (Kid Izuna vs Kid Tobirama)
> Overflowing with talent in swordsmanship, he clashed many times on the battlefield against Tobirama, his equal in ability who would become the Second Hokage.





> Or Madara's Enton. There were no black flames around when Izuna died.


Madara does not have enton, and he was Hashirama's rival, not Tobirama.
We have seen Madara fighting in TONS of chapters. Never used that shit even once.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Feats support P1-Konohamaru...



I'm glad you agree feats support Itachi.



Turrin said:


> Izuna has huge amount of hype as well.



"Ranking" beside pre-EMS Madara, and good at kenjutsu.

I don't see DB hype there that trumps "completely invincible."

So I guess Itachi has better hype too.



Hussain said:


> We have seen Madara fighting in TONS of chapters. Never used that shit even once.



We didn't see Madara use either of his MS jutsu.



Hussain said:


> At the end yes. However, they were fighting since their childhood.



Did Tobirama have Hiraishin since childhood?


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## StickaStick (Jun 16, 2015)

Izuna's hype is that he was able to engage in combat with Tobirama numerous times (and live) which is supportive of the idea that he was at least very close to Tobirama's level. We wouldn't expect Tobirmama to have any noticeable scratches on him either because he is after all a FTG-user who usually need to be finished off it one one fell swoop opposed to whittled down with numerous smaller attacks. 

So if you take the idea that Izuna is close to Tobirama's level, and that Tobirama is close to Itachi's level, then Izuna could be said to be close to Itachi's level. That's all.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

A. Fighting pre-Hiraishin Tobirama and living doesn't mean much.

B. Being paneled by post-Hiraishin Tobirama doesn't mean much.

Both A & B can be accomplished by base Sharingan Taka Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm glad you agree feats support Itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tayuya > Itachi


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## StickaStick (Jun 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> A. Fighting pre-Hiraishin Tobirama and living doesn't mean much.
> 
> B. Being paneled by post-Hiraishin Tobirama doesn't mean much.
> 
> Both A & B can be accomplished by base Sharingan Taka Sasuke.


All that means is that Itachi would probably be one-paneled as well


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## Icegaze (Jun 16, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > You're absolutely pathetic. Read Kisame's statement again. The moment they made eye contact Deidara lost. There was absolutely nothing stopping Itachi from letting him kill himself or even going up and doing the job himself. Unless you can prove that statement wrong. Itch's use of genjutsu is to be as subtle as possible letting the person think that nothing has changed.
> ...


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

I do think Tobirama is stronger than itachi, but polls don't really prove jack. 
This poll may have Tobirama leading, others may have itachi. It depends on how popular said character in X forum, and people's own agenda and biases. 

In this case. Maybe a Tobirama fan knows that itachi is stronger, but votes for Tobirama just because he is his favourite. Or, an itachi's fan knows that Tobirama is stronger, but votes for itachi just because he likes him. 

unless the ranking are official and from Kishi himself, they really means  jack-shit. Besides us knowing the common belief in X place I guess. lol


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## StickaStick (Jun 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> unless the ranking are official and from Kishi himself, they really means  jack-shit. Besides us knowing the common belief in X place I guess. lol


To be fair, I doubt Kishi has any real idea where some of his character stand relative to others power-wise. Everything it dictated by plot and anything else comes second, third, fourth or lower. So even if he did give us his official power-rankings while it would have be consider fact because he is the ultimate arbiter on this matter, I doubt from a logical standpoint looking at everything we know from the manga canon and DBs that it would make much more sense then what we're able to discern ourselves. Kishi might even say Itachi is above Minato with no rational thought into it just because he prefers that creation of his, hypothetically speaking.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

I'm certain Kishimoto thinks about Naruto match-ups more than any of us.


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## StickaStick (Jun 16, 2015)

Certain is a bit strong, unless you're one of Kishi's pals and I wasn't aware.

And he might think about matchups all day and night, but if there's a heap of inconsistencies to the source material, which there is, then chances are any fight he enacts in his head is contradicting the source material in some shape of form because it contradicts itself.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> To be fair, I doubt Kishi has any real idea where some of his character stand relative to others power-wise. Everything it dictated by plot and anything else comes second, third, fourth or lower. So even if he did give us his official power-rankings while it would have be consider fact because he is the ultimate arbiter on this matter, I doubt from a logical standpoint looking at everything we know from the manga canon and DBs that it would make much more sense then what we're able to discern ourselves. Kishi might even say Itachi is above Minato with no rational thought into it just because he prefers that creation of his, hypothetically speaking.


I think Kishi had a very clear view of the structure up to war-arc, and than he just gave up.


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## StickaStick (Jun 16, 2015)

No doubt that could be the case, considering the War-Arc is where numerous character were brought back from the dead (e.g., guys like Itachi, Minato, Tobirama who are some of the most hotly contested vis-a-vis each other power-wise) and power inflation was at its absolute worst.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

@StickaStick

I agree. The plot that surrounds certain event will determine which one will be the winner regardless of anything else. For example, how Shin trolled both Naruto and Sasuke at the same time even tho he is massively weaker  than them. On the other hand, Sakura defeated him easily, but just for her to get "kidnapped" so to speak. 

However, he might perhaps know in normal conditions where there is nothing to serve or damage the plot
where the characters stand. For example, if he were to asked if X character fought Y character in a stand-out
fight which one of them will win? 

Or if I did not write the correctly, if they gave him 2 characters, and asked him to draw a fight between them
(completely out of the manga plot)  Then he will probably not be forced to do what serve the plot, and be more accurate.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> No doubt that could be the case, considering the War-Arc is where numerous character were brought back from the dead (e.g., guys like Itachi, Minato, Tobirama who are some of the most hotly contested vis-a-vis each other power-wise) and power inflation was at its absolute worst.



He was also forced to shorten some stuff or he simply did not care to show other things. In his interview that was 1 hour long, he said the stuff with him told him to finish off the Hanzo Vs Mifuny (whatever his name looks like). Since he listened to that idiot, Hanzu was shown poorly (even tho the fight itself was good), and did not live up to the hype he was given. Not to mention having 2 chapters of fighting 1 of which is a flash-back does not really give the characters enough of time!

I believe he also said the whole ET mess was just so he can find away to get Madara to the story somehow.


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## Lawrence777 (Jun 16, 2015)

Idk, I think Tobirama was kind of implied to have large amounts of experience with mangekyou sharingan users. He saw sasuke had one and was absolutely confident he could take him(atleast it looked that way).
[1,2][3]

It's a fair assessment to make that Tobirama could probably make lightwork of most MS users(although we don't know if the average MS user had Susano'o).

Regardless, Itachi's about as high end as your getting on that spectrum of MS users, and not only because of the MS abilities but because of tactics and  unorthodox methodology as well(such as using crow fuinjutsu and kage bushin).

And I'm focusing on tactics and genjutsu because really Amaterasu and Susano'o aren't going to be the things that win it for Itachi here if he does win.

If in the years Tobirama's been going up against Uchiha(and the occasional MS user) he has never seen genjutsu and trickery on Itachi's level, then Itachi has a very real chance of winning. 

That's just the thing though,  Itachi may not have been the first Uchiha to use an animal as a medium for genjutsu or fingers or kage bushin, and if there's _anyone_ that's seen or went up against someone similiar to Itachi, I feel like it'd be Tobirama.


Funny how the polls ended up though, because I feel Tobirama has a substantially better chance of beating Itachi than Minato has.


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2015)

Few points. 

1- Confident does not really mean anything. The Gokage thought they will defeat Madara as well, and they got defeated. Tobirama thought he can get out of Oro's control, but he was put to his place.

2- Genjutsu needs a direct look at the eye. It's hard to do so. Itachi used his Tsukuyomi against Kakashi who looked directly to him thinking that his sharingan will help, and Sasuke who was forcefully looking to his eyes (which he countered anyway).

3- Finally, about the last point. Not really, as Minato is Tobirama's superior as the latter admitted. 
(Both of them are stronger than itachi tho as it has been made clear in the manga  )


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## StickaStick (Jun 16, 2015)

@Hussain, I agree. Although it would be nice if these things could fit into the plot, so it wouldn't mean we are all kind of wasting our time here discussing feats and hype related directly to the plot. 

And you bring up a good point about the Hazno thing and Kishi intending to showcase guys/gals abilities more but bending over to his editors instead. Like you said, if Hanzo was supposed to be this character who is seriously strong then he's going to need at least a few chapter to properly display that power without it coming off as completely rushed. To make matters worse, when Kishi did bring him back and gave him so little panel time and lackluster feats, relatively speaking to his hype, then people use this instead as evidence to his lack of capability. So basically Hanzo would have been better off staying dead lol.

This goes for a guy like Tobirmama as well, as you'd imagine Kishi might have wanted to make him some kind of suiton master, but because panel time is so limited (especially to guys who aren't as relevant to the plot) he probably thought it easier to turn him into a Minato clone instead, as least as far as FTG goes. Sucks for both parties involved because Tobirama fans probably would have preferred him to bit a little bit more unique and showcase some serious suiton stuff, while now Minato fans have to deal with, well, stuff like this who's better at what. Stuff you see in the Minato vs Tobirama threads.


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## Turrin (Jun 16, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> No doubt that could be the case, considering the War-Arc is where numerous character were brought back from the dead (e.g., guys like Itachi, Minato, Tobirama who are some of the most hotly contested vis-a-vis each other power-wise) and power inflation was at its absolute worst.


Honestly the way I think Kishi's mind works is that he first considers how much of a challenge he wants a certain villain to be. Than he comes up with abilities that fit that challenge "level" for that character. Than after designing that "villain" he than thinks up ways for the "heroes" to meet that challenge. Meaning I don't think Kishimoto has a tier list planned out and places each character on that list. I think rather he comes up with say Sasori and he's like well it's time for the heroes to beat Sasori, how will they do it? Well I can have Sakura counter his poison and give her the support of Chiyo whose well suited to taking Sasori on. Problem is sometimes even than Kishi doesn't feel it's enough for the heroes to win so he adds some dues ex machina in, like Sasori allowing himself to be hit. This was not too bad however, until the War, at which point he kept making the villains way too challenging thus having to come up with extremely contrived ways for the heroes to prevail. 

So if someone asked Kishi to rank the characters he'd probably only be able to rank the major heroes and the challengers they face, while he'd probably struggle just as much as us to rank the characters that are used as simply hype tools or play the role of filler where, they are simply their to make up the difference in strength between the major hero and their challenger.


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## Icegaze (Jun 17, 2015)

just saying izuna had MS and susanoo 
tobirama didnt seem to be caught in genjutsu. 

if itachi is tagged something he cant really avoid he gets trolled. While tobirama cant spread marks like minato in canon he still had no issues having several marks on the battle field 

eg: the one he used with his clone to have obito chakra blast explode somewhere far off
the god tree escape 
his kunai 
clones

So yh thats more than enough

@sticka minato is the tobirama clone though.  kishi also implied well before the war that tobirama had ST jutsu.

though arguably it would have been better if tobirama had haku ice jutsu and haku had never existed. the jutsu could be mistaken for an ST jutsu

you combine that with yagura water mirror and tobirama could have been his own original weaker ST version of minato. vs just using a less practical hirashin despite how obvious it is.


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