# Strongest To Weakest Kages



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Well I don't remember seeing this thread, so I thought I would make it. In order from strongest to weakest of *all* the Kages with at least Semi-Feats (3rd Kazekage has feats through Sasori is an example of Semi-Feats). Please rank the Kages based on overall strength, as opposed to how they would do in a 1 Vs 1 against another Kage, that makes the lists more accurate. Also, make a specific section for both Minato and Minato (Jinchuriki) as they are almost entirely different, as well as old and young Hiruzen. This is not mandatory, just better. 

*My list *


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama
2. Minato (Jinchuriki)
3. Oonoki 
4. Tobirama 
5. Minato (Base) 
6. Ay, Ei, A (Whatever spelling you prefer)
7. Muu 
8. Hiruzen (Young)
9. Yagura 
10. 2nd Mizukage
11. 3rd Raikage (BeastKage)
12. Gaara
13. Tsunade 
14. Danzo 
15. 3rd Kazekage 
16. Hiruzen (Old)
17. Mei
18. 4th Kazekage




Feel free to criticize my list, I am up for a good debate (Please do criticize, I am bored out of my mind). Also, leave your own lists.


----------



## Cognitios (Jul 20, 2014)

- Prime Hiruzen (Hype)
- SM Hashirama
- BM Minato
- Base Hashirama
- Edo Tobirama
- Base Minato / Tobirama
- Prime Hiruzen
- Raikagenaut
- Prime Onoki
- Muu / Trollkage
- Edo Hiruzen
- Old Onoki
- Yagura
- Gaara (Desert)
- Tsunade
- Ei
- Danzo 
- Old Hiruzen
- Mei
- 3rd Kazekage
- 4th Kazekage
Your placement of Onoki is too high imo


----------



## Bonly (Jul 20, 2014)

Hashi
Minato
Tobi
Muu/French Dude
Onoki/Sandaime Raikage
Gaara
Tsunade
Mei
A
Hiruzen
Sandaime Kazekage 
Yondaime Kazekage


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> - Prime Hiruzen (Hype)
> - SM Hashirama
> - BM Minato
> - Base Hashirama
> ...



Just a couple things I think seems off:

1. Base Hashirama should still be stronger then BSM and BM Minato, he was able to pressure 100% Kurama with Madara in Base, and only got overwhelmed once PS came in. Minato should not even be able to take down Hashirama's PS sized Mokujin. 

2. Do you seriously believe that Muu and TrollKage have the exact same power? I mean they tied in a fight between them, but that does not mean that Muu does not have an overall more useful skill-set, 

3. BeastKage is too high IMO while Ei is too low. BeastKage's main factor is his durability, he is only as fast as V1 Ei, and V2 Ei is significantly faster then V1. Putting Tsunade over Ei is especially odd, as Ei blitzes 90% of the Narutoverse (Tsunade included) while Tsunade can loose to quiet a few people. 


I believe Oonoki is ridiculously OP. He has versatility with his Doton clones and could make someone unable to fight simply by touching them (And he is very fast at that). Plus he has a huge AoE Jinton and massive storage of chakra. I think his place is well deserved.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato (Jinchuriki)
3. Hiruzen (Prime)
4. Minato (Base)
5. Tobirama
6. Oonoki
7. Mu
8. Sandaime Raikage
9. Yagura
10. 2nd Mizukage
11. Gaara
12. Danzo
13. Ei
14. Mei
15. Tsunade 
16. Old Hiruzen
17. 3rd Kaze
18. 4th Kaze


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 20, 2014)

Hashirama 
Minato
Tobirama / Tsunade
Muu / Nidaime Mizukage
Onoki
Gaara
Sandaime Raikage
Ei
Yagura
Mei Terumi
Hiruzen
Sandaime Kazekage (?)
Yondaime Kazekage

Though there's an extremely small margin of strength between most of these ninja.​​


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hashirama
> Minato
> Tobirama / *Tsunade
> *Muu / Nidaime Mizukage
> ...


​


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hashirama
> Minato
> Tobirama / Tsunade
> Muu / Nidaime Mizukage
> ...



I believe that Tsunade is *way* too high. She has a small chance of beating Sandaime Raikage, but other then that, she can't beat anyone beyond Yagura on your list.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> I believe that Tsunade is *way* too high. She has a small chance of beating Sandaime Raikage, but other then that, she can't beat anyone beyond Yagura on your list.



That's fine - feel free to explain why. I think the Sandaime Raikage would be incredibly difficult for her to kill, and to be honest I could see him defeating her in a match-up, but generally speaking I think she's a bit stronger/could defeat more opponents than he could.​​


----------



## Bonly (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> I believe that Tsunade is *way* too high. She has a small chance of beating Sandaime Raikage, but other then that, she can't beat anyone beyond Yagura on your list.



"Please rank the Kages based on overall strength, *as opposed to how they would do in a 1 Vs 1 against another Kage,* that makes the lists more accurate."

Those were your own words via OP. Seems like a bit of your reply to both GT and Cognitios revolve around a Kage not being able to beat another Kage in your opinion, rather then overall strength(since you keep mentioning how a Kage can't beat a different Kage). Not saying I agree with GT ranking of Tsunade though


----------



## trance (Jul 20, 2014)

1. Hashirama

_-Large Gap-_

2. Minato
3. Tobirama

_-Smaller Gap-_

4. Onoki/Raikagenaut
5. Muu/TrollKage
6. Ei/Tsunade/Gaara/Yagura (?)
7. Mei/Sandaime Kazekage

_-Smaller Gap-_

8. Hiruzen (old)
9. Yondaime Kazekage



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hashirama
> Minato
> Tobirama / Tsunade
> Muu / Nidaime Mizukage
> ...



Tsunade in the same league as Tobirama?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2014)

1 - Hash
2- Minato
3- Tobirama
4- Onoki/Mu
5- A
6- Sandaime Raikage / Nidaime Mizukage
7 -Gaara
8- Sandaime Kazekage
9- Yagura
10- Tsunade
11- Hiruzen
12- Yondaime Kazekage
13- Mei




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hashirama
> Minato
> Tobirama / Tsunade
> Muu / Nidaime Mizukage
> ...



That Tsunade placement 
You thought no one would notice didn't you ?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Getting ready for the Tsunade Apologist response like


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Bonly said:


> "Please rank the Kages based on overall strength, *as opposed to how they would do in a 1 Vs 1 against another Kage,* that makes the lists more accurate."
> 
> Those were your own words via OP. Seems like a bit of your reply to both GT and Cognitios revolve around a Kage not being able to beat another Kage in your opinion, rather then overall strength(since you keep mentioning how a Kage can't beat a different Kage). Not saying I agree with GT ranking of Tsunade though



Not at all. What I said to GT was that Tsunade can't beat any of the Kage beyond Yagura, that's more then just one Kage. As for the Oonoki thing with Cognitive, I was talking about Oonoki was a whole, not 1 V 1's. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's fine - feel free to explain why. I think the Sandaime Raikage would be incredibly difficult for her to kill, and to be honest I could see him defeating her in a match-up, but generally speaking I think she's a bit stronger/could defeat more opponents than he could.​​



Sure:

1. Against Muu and Oonoki she has no way of avoiding Jinton as she is not fast enough, and she is not fast enough to avoid her weight increasing to the point that she can't move. She cannot reach the two if they are in the air and she has no way of finding Muu. As a whole, she lacks the versatility those two have and her 'tank and charge' strategy is very risky against Kage level opponents. She also lacks the Ninjutsu (Physical approaches do not always work). 

2. Against Nidaime Mizukage she cannot win either, since she has no way of detecting him period, and Hydrification makes it impossible for a sole physical fighter like her to hurt him.  As a whole, he is a far more versatile fighter with a strategy that is the complete opposite of risky. Half the characters in the manga cannot even hope to hurt him due to Hydrification alone and even less can get through his mist. 

3. Against Gaara she can't get through his defence, that's really all their is to it. As a whole, Gaara's sand is one of the most versatile things in the manga. He is better suited to most opponents then her.

4. Ay simply blitzes her, she cannot tag someone as fast as him, not to mention her usual strategy of tank and charge won't work against him as he usually goes for decapitation. As a whole, Ay can blitz and tank attacks from 90% of the Narutoverse, she really can't do anything that he can't do faster then her. 

5. With Yagura its a toss up, if she can tag him before he goes Biju then sure, but considering he was said to be a Perfect Jin that would be hard. As a whole, Yagura has Bijudamas, which is really far more dangerous then Tsunade and anything she could bring to a fight.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 20, 2014)

_*1.)*_ Hashirama Senju

_*2.)*_ Tobirama Senju, Minato Namikaze
_*3.)*_ Tsunade
_*4.)*_ Danzō Shimura, Ohnoki
_*5.)*_ Second Mizukage, Mū
_*6.)*_ Third Raikage, Ay
_*7.)*_ Third Kazekage
_*8.)*_ Gaara
_*9.)*_ Mei Terumī
_*10.)*_ Fourth Kazekage
_*11.)*_ Yagura


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> _*1.)*_ Hashirama Senju
> 
> _*2.)*_ Tobirama Senju, Minato Namikaze
> _*3.)*_ Tsunade
> ...



What makes Tsunade stronger then the 4,5 and 6th placements on your list?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jul 20, 2014)

1.Prime Hiruzen
2.Minato/Hashirama
3.Hashirama/Minato
4.Old Hiruzen
5.Tobirama
6.Tsunade
7.Onoki
8.Gaara
9.Sandaime Raikage
10. Mu/TrollKage
11.Yagura
12. A
13.4th Kazekage
14.Mei


----------



## Kyu (Jul 20, 2014)

_1.) Hashirama Senju

-Enormous Gap-

2.) Minato Namikaze
3.) Tobirama Senju
4.) Sandaime Raikage
5.) Mu~Trollkage
6.) Onoki
7.) Ei 
8.) Yagura
9.) Tsunade
10.) Gaara
11.) Hiruzen Sarutobi
12.) Mei Terumi
13.) Fourth Kazekage_


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

0. Hiruzen (prime)
1. Hashirama

-big gap-

2. Minato/Tobirama
3. 3rd Raikage/4th Raikage
4. Danzo
5. Muu/2nd Mizukage
6. Oonoki
7. Yagura
8. Tsunade
9. 3rd Kazekage
10. Gaara
11. 4th Kazekage
12. Hiruzen (old)
13. Mei



I didn't include Jinchuuriki Minato because he only became a Jinchuuriki as an Edo Tensei and he was no longer a Hokage then. If I did include him, I would put him directly under Hashirama.



Destiny Monarch said:


> *My list *
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I wasn't going to, but since you asked...

Oonoki is way too fucking high. Above Minato? HELLLL NAW.

I don't get why he's above Muu, either; they are literally like the same character, except Muu is basically a prime Oonoki (with no back problems) that can turn invisible.

Minato ~ Tobirama > Muu > Oonoki

Definitely.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That Tsunade placement
> You thought no one would notice didn't you ?



Of course not, I expected the ensuing rage.



Dr. White said:


> Getting ready for the Tsunade Apologist response like





Go and fuck yourself.



Destiny Monarch said:


> Sure:
> 
> 1. Against Muu and Oonoki she has no way of avoiding Jinton as she is not fast enough,



Jinton isn't fast enough to blitz her.



> and she is not fast enough to avoid her weight increasing to the point that she can't move.



Onoki isn't fast enough to blitz her either, and we don't know f Muu can actually use this technique or not.



> She cannot reach the two if they are in the air and she has no way of finding Muu.



Being able to fly = / = being stronger. Tsunade can't reach Sai while he flies either, but she's still a lot stronger than him generally. Also, it seems like a common misconception among people that Muu can stay invisible while using jinton, in reality he comes out of his invisibility shroud before he attacks. Also, in every combat situation Muu has been in he hasn't actually fought his opponents while being _continually_ shrouded. Between her keen senses and Katsuyu divisions that can station themselves a different positions of the battlefield, Muu's invisibility isn't that problematic.



> As a whole, she lacks the versatility those two have and her 'tank and charge' strategy is very risky against Kage level opponents. She also lacks the Ninjutsu (Physical approaches do not always work).



I agree that they wouldn't work _initially_ and that she would struggle to defeat him, but I feel like she edges over him in general strength.



> 2. Against Nidaime Mizukage she cannot win either, since she has no way of detecting him period, and Hydrification makes it impossible for a sole physical fighter like her to hurt him.  As a whole, he is a far more versatile fighter with a strategy that is the complete opposite of risky. Half the characters in the manga cannot even hope to hurt him due to Hydrification alone and even less can get through his mist.



She can have thousands of Katsuyu divisions scout around the battlefield in order to find the Mizukage. Once they tell Tsunade his location she can find and attack him. Her regeneration will sustain her while the Mizukage's explosions hit her, and her resilience allows her to keep moving through the damage. He's also weakened while he uses Joki Boi and can't continually liquefy his body should he be engaged up close. I see her killing him eventually.



> 3. Against Gaara she can't get through his defence, that's really all their is to it. As a whole, Gaara's sand is one of the most versatile things in the manga. He is better suited to most opponents then her.



Tsunade's strikes would smash right through his sand shields, she's too physically strong. If he wraps her limbs up in sand she smacks whatever limb is afflicted with her huge strength, and the sand goes flying off. If he manages to completely submerge her in sand to the point that she can't smash her way out due to the pressure, she summons Katsuyu whose sheer size busts her out (she doesn't even need handseals to summon Katsuyu). I just see Tsunade smashing past his sand shield and killing him sooner or later. That said, if he breaks a massive amount of earth down into sand, enough so that he can continually spam sand tidal waves (or if he was fighting in a desert), and then flies into the air, he would win. However I just don't think he would have the time to do that against Tsunade under normal circumstances.



> 4. Ay simply blitzes her, she cannot tag someone as fast as him, not to mention her usual strategy of tank and charge won't work against him as he usually goes for decapitation. As a whole, Ay can blitz and tank attacks from 90% of the Narutoverse, she really can't do anything that he can't do faster then her.



So what if he blitzes her? With Byakugou active she regenerates, he doesn't expect her to be able to retaliate and she could end up smacking him the second after he hits her. Even as durable as he is, Tsunade's strength would inflict noticeable damage to him. Of course, if things become too difficult and that strategy starts to fail, she brings out Katsuyu which Ei can't really deal with. Regardless of that, she has a more diverse arsenal and can deal with a wider variety of opponents than he can, OP.



> 5. With Yagura its a toss up, if she can tag him before he goes Biju then sure, but considering he was said to be a Perfect Jin that would be hard. As a whole, Yagura has Bijudamas, which is really far more dangerous then Tsunade and anything she could bring to a fight.



Yagura's bijuu-damas would only be a nuisance if Tsunade was at long range. At close range she can uppercut it in the jaw to ensure it ends up aiming it's bijuu-dama at the sky and misses. The bijuu-dama is more potent than anything in Tsunade's arsenal though, that is true, but if that were an incentive to put him above her then he should also be above Minato whose fire-power is way below his. We don't have a whole lot of information on Yagura, and he doesn't have much hype, so I'm not sure if he deserves going up the tier. He probably dies before most powerful opponents allow him to get into the Sanbi form.​​


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 20, 2014)

1. Hashirama
2. Edo Minato
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Yagura (perfect jinchuuriki)
6. Mu/2nd Mizukage
7. Onoki
8. 3rd Raikage
9. Tsunade
10. Gaara
11. Ei
12. Hiruzen (I'm not listing young Hiruzen as he has no feats)
13. Yondaime Kazekage
14. Mei

The rest simply don't have enough feats for me to accurately place them.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 20, 2014)

Implying Yagura has the feats for an accurate placement, justified by Jinchūriki hype that may very well have simply been due to Obito's control instead of his own merits, no less.



Destiny Monarch said:


> What makes Tsunade stronger then the 4,5 and 6th placements on your list?



Four of them can't kill her outright, and because of it she outlasts _Izanagi_, Katsuyu-combs for the clam through the mirage, circumvents the Third Raikage's durability with _Shosen_, sacrificially strikes Ay (especially now that Katsuyu can turn into goo across the field, resulting in a slowed down dash), etc.

Mū can kill her, but invisibility'll likely provoke Tsunade to hastily summon Katsuyu on top of him, so she _could_ kill him too (assuming a moderate starting distance). That doesn't work on Ohnoki because he can make the slug as light as a feather, but that only leaves one or two losses to five or at least four wins, which makes her more dangerous in my book.


----------



## Veo (Jul 20, 2014)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. Muu
5.  Gaara
6. Hiruzen
7. Ohnoki
8. Tsunade
9. Raikagenaut
10. Trollkage
11. Yagura
12. Ei
13. Danzo
14. Mei

This is a general list, it could be very different depending on specific matchups.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Implying Yagura has the feats for an accurate placement,* justified by Jinchūriki hype* that may very well have simply been due to Obito's control instead of his own merits, no less.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's literally the only reason I placed him there. We've seen what the bijuu can do and he's stated to be a perfect jinchuuriki (which hasn't been contradicted). If he just had a bijuu inside of him then I wouldn't even bother trying to accurately place him, but the fact that he's stated to be able to perfectly control it gives us a better understanding of what he may be capable of.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm having a hard time seeing how Obito would hypnotize one into becoming a perfect Jin.

Is he a Bjuu fitness trainer?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 20, 2014)

1. Prime-Hiruzen
2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5.  Sandaime-Raikage 
6. Yagura
7. Onoki
8. Tsunade
9. Gaara
10. Mu
11. Nindaime Mizukage
13. Sandaime Kazekage
14. Yondaime Kazekage
15. Mei
16. Ei


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 20, 2014)

1. Hashirama
2. Hiruzen
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Danzō 
6. Yagura 
7. Mū
8. Ōnoki
9. 4th Kazekage
10. Gaara
11. 2nd Mizukage
12. 3rd Raikage
13. Mei
14. Tsunade
15. A


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1. Prime-Hiruzen
> 2. Hashirama
> 3. Minato
> 4. Tobirama
> ...


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 20, 2014)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato (Jinchuriki)
3/4. Oonoki/ Tobirama 
[gap that's notable]
5. Minato (Base) 
6. Muu 
7. Tsunade
8. 2nd Mizukage
9. Gaara 
10. 3rd Raikage (BeastKage)
11. A/Mei
13. Danzo 
14. Yagura
15. Hiruzen (Old)
16. 3rd Kazekage 
17. 4th Kazekage

Although, aside from the top 2, I honestly don't believe any match from the "Upper" part of the list could stomp anyone from the lower. I also feel like 6/7 are vaguely interchangable but oh well.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 20, 2014)

You people are crazy. Tsunade is too high on your lists

Hashi
Minato\Tobirama
Raikagenaut
French dude/Gaara(Desert)
Muu
Ohnoki
Yagura
Gaara\A
Tsunade
3rd Kaze
4th Kaze
Old Hiruzen
Mei


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Jinton isn't fast enough to blitz her.



Blitz her? No. She can certainly try and run, but she can't outrun it. 





> Onoki isn't fast enough to blitz her either, and we don't know f Muu can actually use this technique or not.



He is as fast if not faster then Deidara on his bird. Besides, he does not have to blitz her, she is a CQC anyways so simply touching should not be a problem. Especially with the use of Doton clones which she cannot tell apart. 





> Being able to fly = / = being stronger. Tsunade can't reach Sai while he flies either, but she's still a lot stronger than him generally. Also, it seems like a common misconception among people that Muu can stay invisible while using jinton, in reality he comes out of his invisibility shroud before he attacks. Also, in every combat situation Muu has been in he hasn't actually fought his opponents while being _continually_ shrouded. Between her keen senses and Katsuyu divisions that can station themselves a different positions of the battlefield, Muu's invisibility isn't that problematic.



That was simply one of the many factors that make Oonoki more of a threat in general. Sai's flight is pretty unreliable, as one can throw a pebble and he will drop. He does not have to use Jinton, he can stay invisible and decapitate her. Tsunade has keen senses? That's a fanfic, never has she shown any sort of keen senses. The divisors of Katsuyu cannot communicate telepathically with Tsunade, it would be too late. 





> I agree that they wouldn't work _initially_ and that she would struggle to defeat him, but I feel like she edges over him in general strength.



Of course she has more physical strength, but that and healing is all she has going for her. Not enough to overcome most Kage + level opponents. 




> She can have thousands of Katsuyu divisions scout around the battlefield in order to find the Mizukage. Once they tell Tsunade his location she can find and attack him. Her regeneration will sustain her while the Mizukage's explosions hit her, and her resilience allows her to keep moving through the damage. He's also weakened while he uses Joki Boi and can't continually liquefy his body should he be engaged up close. I see her killing him eventually.



She will be dead by the time they find him, and once they find him, he can move away. She can last for a long time but not forever, eventually she would go down, with Mizukage unscathed. Its not like the second they find him, his mist goes away after all. 





> Tsunade's strikes would smash right through his sand shields, she's too physically strong. If he wraps her limbs up in sand she smacks whatever limb is afflicted with her huge strength, and the sand goes flying off. If he manages to completely submerge her in sand to the point that she can't smash her way out due to the pressure, she summons Katsuyu whose sheer size busts her out (she doesn't even need handseals to summon Katsuyu). I just see Tsunade smashing past his sand shield and killing him sooner or later. That said, if he breaks a massive amount of earth down into sand, enough so that he can continually spam sand tidal waves (or if he was fighting in a desert), and then flies into the air, he would win. However I just don't think he would have the time to do that against Tsunade under normal circumstances.



Her arm has a limited reach, so even if she was able to s,ash through his sand, her arm would stop at the time that her body touches the sand. Sand Tsunami makes it a GG as at that point, Gaara can finish her whatever way he would like (He can bury her hundreds of meters underground or simply continuously crush her with sand coffin). She would not be able to summon Katsuyu if she is deep beneath the ground, as she would need to get blood first. Back in Part 1 he was able to use Sand Tsunami's fairly quickly, now it should be a piece of cake. And that's just 1 V 1 talk. In. Terms of overall strength as a whole, Gaara's sand is far more versatile and therefore, more suited to fight different varieties of opponents then Tsunade's one strategy. 





> So what if he blitzes her? With Byakugou active she regenerates, he doesn't expect her to be able to retaliate and she could end up smacking him the second after he hits her. Even as durable as he is, Tsunade's strength would inflict noticeable damage to him. Of course, if things become too difficult and that strategy starts to fail, she brings out Katsuyu which Ei can't really deal with. Regardless of that, she has a more diverse arsenal and can deal with a wider variety of opponents than he can, OP.



He cuts her head off, Byakougo is not saving her at that point. Ay goes for decapitation with his chops all the time, against Tsunade it would be no different. The only time Tsunade would ever manage to land a blow is when Ay runs out of chakra, which is not happening. Katsuyu cannot do anything to Ay, it will. Be almost as if she is not even there, that is, if Tsunade was even capable of surviving that long. And no, her tank and charge strategy is not more useful then Ay's straight up blitz strategy. They both have linear strategy's, but the difference is that Ay's is far more effective. 





> Yagura's bijuu-damas would only be a nuisance if Tsunade was at long range. At close range she can uppercut it in the jaw to ensure it ends up aiming it's bijuu-dama at the sky and misses. The bijuu-dama is more potent than anything in Tsunade's arsenal though, that is true, but if that were an incentive to put him above her then he should also be above Minato whose fire-power is way below his. We don't have a whole lot of information on Yagura, and he doesn't have much hype, so I'm not sure if he deserves going up the tier. He probably dies before most powerful opponents allow him to get into the Sanbi form.[/indent][/justify]



Not at all, if she is within range of a Bijudama its over, its not something she can tank. If she is in close, she still does not stand a chance. 



Nikushimi said:


> Oonoki is way too fucking high. Above Minato? HELLLL NAW.



Jinton along with the fact that once he touches someone, they can't move, makes him a more credible threat against most ( He would loose in a 1 V 1 with Minato but he can beat more characters then Minato can). 



> I don't get why he's above Muu, either; they are literally like the same character, except Muu is basically a prime Oonoki (with no back problems) that can turn invisible.



Clones and Doton Giants are more useful  then Mujin Mode in most cases. Also greater Jinton versatility. 



> Minato ~ Tobirama > Muu > Oonoki



That's not far-fetched, but I would have to disagree.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Sage Hashirama 
BM Minato 
Base Hashirama 
Tobirama 
Base Minato
Muu ~ Onoki ~ Tsunade 
Sandaime Raikage ~ Danzo( No Koto)
Ay ~ Troll Kage 
Edo Hiruzen ~ Jin Kage ~ Gaara
Mei 
3rd KazeKage 
4th KazeKage


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 20, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> That's literally the only reason I placed him there. We've seen what the bijuu can do and he's stated to be a perfect jinchuuriki (which hasn't been contradicted). If he just had a bijuu inside of him then I wouldn't even bother trying to accurately place him, but the fact that he's stated to be able to perfectly control it gives us a better understanding of what he may be capable of.



My point is that this statement is called into question by the reveal that Obito was controlling him. Obito who has the Mangekyō, which can subjugate Tailed Beasts, and whom has subjugated the strongest of them all in canon. For all we know all of this hype stems from accomplishments Yagura made whilst under Obito's influence. It's not like anybody besides Kisame would have been aware of Obito's involvement, and Kisame wasn't the one who praised Yagura.

I just think if you're excluding people on not having enough feats for an accurate placement, Yagura should be among them.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Implying Yagura has the feats for an accurate placement, justified by Jinchūriki hype that may very well have simply been due to Obito's control instead of his own merits, no less.



Implying that Yagura does not have feats of his own, and that even if he was not a Perfect Jin, he could not simply give in to his own tailed beast like Yugito did (Though I don't see why Danzo would lie). 





> Four of them can't kill her outright, and because of it she outlasts _Izanagi_, Katsuyu-combs for the clam through the mirage, circumvents the Third Raikage's durability with _Shosen_, sacrificially strikes Ay (especially now that Katsuyu can turn into goo across the field, resulting in a slowed down dash), etc.



Katsuyu is not seeing through the mirage, even if she saw the real one, he could run to another place and continue with the trolling. She can't strike Ay even sacrificially, she would not be able to tag him, period. Meanwhile, Ay can easily decapitate her. 




> Mū can kill her, but invisibility'll likely provoke Tsunade to hastily summon Katsuyu on top of him, so she _could_ kill him too (assuming a moderate starting distance). That doesn't work on Ohnoki because he can make the slug as light as a feather, but that only leaves one or two losses to five or at least four wins, which makes her more dangerous in my book.



Summon Katsuyu on top of Muu? That seems like something straight from a Tsunade fanfic. The chances that that would happen are slim to none. Muu has ridiculous reflexes (and sensing) and he would certainly not make a frontal assault. His Clone Mujin Mode combo would make it an easy win against most people in the Narutoverse, and Tsunade is not exception., and she would never summon Katsuyu like that. 

She can very possibly beat Danzo, and she has a *slight * chance of beating the 3rd Raikage. But Muu, Oonoki and Ay outclass her both in a 1 Vs 1 fight between them and in general overall strength.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

3rd Raikage makes Tsunade mush. There is nothing she can do to him


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

So far, it seems that Tsunade is by far the most overrated Kage, while Ay is by far the most underrated Kage.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Jinton along with the fact that once he touches someone, they can't move, makes him a more credible threat against most ( He would loose in a 1 V 1 with Minato but he can beat more characters then Minato can).



Hiraishin is more broken than just about any Jutsu in the manga. With it and a kunai, Minato can kill damn near everyone up to and including Oonoki.



> Clones and Doton Giants are more useful  then Mujin Mode in most cases. Also greater Jinton versatility.



Muu can't make clones or Doton golems?

He was Oonoki's teacher and can use all the same elements (since they both use Jinton, which combines three). Stone Bunshin seems fairly basic and the golems are something even Akatsuchi can do.



> That's not far-fetched, but I would have to disagree.



What the hell are Muu or Oonoki going to do when Tobirama busts out the multiplying explosive tags on their asses?


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Tobirama would rape Onoki and Muu .


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Hiraishin is more broken than just about any Jutsu in the manga. With it and a kunai, Minato can kill damn near everyone up to and including Oonoki.



I disagree. Hirashin might not even be in the top 10 most broken Jutsu. And I disagree, Oonoki's flight allows him to be completely out of range of Minato's Hirashin blitz, it would not be as simple as that. 





> Muu can't make clones or Doton golems?



He can make one clone but then Jinton goes down the drain. And he can't make Doton Golems unfortunately, at least feat-wise. 



> He was Oonoki's teacher and can use all the same elements (since they both use Jinton, which combines three). Stone Bunshin seems fairly basic and the golems are something even Akatsuchi can do.



Unfortunately, Vs Battles don't allow even reasonable speculation such as this. 




> What the hell are Muu or Oonoki going to do when Tobirama busts out the multiplying explosive tags on their asses?



That requires Edo, which requires prep, which is not allowed in most battles. This thread is to determine who are the overall strongest Kages (Vs Battle wise). With Edo's Tobirama would win as both Muu and Oonoki have no sealing methods.

Don't get me wrong, I would be all for Tobirama being the overall stronger Kage (He is my second favourite character) but I can't let bias get in the way.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Implying that Yagura does not have feats of his own,



He has a mirror...and that's literally it.



> and that even if he was not a Perfect Jin, he could not simply give in to his own tailed beast like Yugito did



When the Tailed Beast is acting on its own it's not nearly as powerful as when it's collaborating with its host. That should have been obvious when Deidara casually one-shotted Isobu and Hidan/Kakuzu managed to hold off and even injure Matatabi.



> (Though I don't see why Danzo would lie).



I'm not saying Danzō was necessarily lying, simply that he likely didn't have all the facts.



> Katsuyu is not seeing through the mirage, even if she saw the real one, he could run to another place and continue with the trolling.



_The clam_, which is producing the mist for the mirage, isn't running anywhere. It gets melted and the Genjutsu trolling stops there.



> She can't strike Ay even sacrificially, she would not be able to tag him, period.



Tsunade maneuvered her roundhouse under Madara's attempt to guard upon arriving to the battlefield through Tensō no Jutsu, the same Madara who blocked Ay's shot with no issue. Consider also that Ay hit Susano'o while it was airborne (no resistance to being moved by the impact) and Tsunade still performed a kick to it before it was blasted away by the force. You don't think Tsunade with her already herculean strength and Chakra-cling method can trade hits with Ay before they separate (he can't hit her and simultaneously back up, he'd have to do either or), not even when you also factor in the potential for a Katsuyu-floor sticky-hold?



> Summon Katsuyu on top of Muu? That seems like something straight from a Tsunade fanfic. The chances that that would happen are slim to none. Muu has ridiculous reflexes (and sensing) and he would certainly not make a frontal assault.



Tsunade has shown to summon Katsuyu directly in front of her, the slug is larger than Gamabunta who is more than 100 meters, and I'm not subscribing to the notion that Tsunade is so stupid that she'd try searching for an invisible man that fights at a distance with a technique she can't regenerate from in order to hit him with her hands or feet when she can just use a summoning with far more reach. Even if Mū can react to Katsuyu's appearance he's not getting out of range before she lands- she's too big.



> His Clone Mujin Mode combo would make it an easy win against most people in the Narutoverse, and Tsunade is not exception.



He can't Jinton when he uses that combo, and since that was his only technique that'd kill Tsunade through her regeneration she'd most certainly be an exception.



> and she would never summon Katsuyu like that.



Because?


----------



## Kyu (Jul 20, 2014)

>Onoki above Minato

Oh my fucking God.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama would rape Onoki and Muu .



I'd go as far as to say he beats them at the same time. 



Destiny Monarch said:


> I disagree. Hirashin might not even be in the top 10 most broken Jutsu.



That Jutsu alone is why Minato used to be one of the top tier ninja in this manga.

Without it, he is basically just a really fast guy who can use Rasengan. 



> And I disagree, Oonoki's flight allows him to be completely out of range of Minato's Hirashin blitz, it would not be as simple as that.



Outside of Hiraishin kunai throwing range means there's enough distance for Minato to comfortably react to Jinton all day.

That just ends in a stalemate and I'd bet my money on the young guy in a battle of attrition.



> He can make one clone but then Jinton goes down the drain.



Muu's fissile cloning technique is different from Iwa Bunshin.



> And he can't make Doton Golems unfortunately, at least feat-wise.



That's like saying Itachi cannot use Henge.



> Unfortunately, Vs Battles don't allow even reasonable speculation such as this.



There is no universal set of rules dictating this. If speculation is _reasonable_, then I don't see what the problem is, provided evidence can be shown indicating a high probability or implicit certainty of something (for example, Itachi, someone who was at the top of his class in the ninja academy, being able to use an academy-mandatory Jutsu like Henge, even though he's never done it on-panel).

Oonoki uses all of the same Jutsu as Muu (weight manipulation and Jinton), and we know they use the same elements because of Jinton (which means Muu can use Doton). The Doton techniques Oonoki uses aren't especially complicated, either.



> That requires Edo, which requires prep, which is not allowed in most battles. This thread is to determine who are the overall strongest Kages (Vs Battle wise). With Edo's Tobirama would win as both Muu and Oonoki have no sealing methods.



Tobirama doesn't need Edo Tensei to use the exploding tags; it's just easier to do, since they can act as suicide bombers.



> Don't get me wrong, I would be all for Tobirama being the overall stronger Kage (He is my second favourite character) but I can't let bias get in the way.



Tobirama doesn't even need Edo Tensei. Hiraishin blitz takes care of Oonoki or Muu, quick and clean.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Yeah your right. Tobirama could beat them at the same time. They are never hitting him.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Why do people think Hirahsin = Intangibility?


----------



## Pocalypse (Jul 20, 2014)

What the hell? Most of the Gokage in this list are ranked quiet low and Minato is in such a higher tier and for some reason he can't take on the Gokage?


----------



## SSMG (Jul 20, 2014)

Hashirama
---
---
--- 
everyone else.


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> 3rd Raikage makes Tsunade mush. There is nothing she can do to him



Her strength itself was enough to crack Madara's Susanno clone. Third Raikage might be able to endure several hits from her, but I highly doubt he's impervious to her strength. Alternatively, she could melt him with Katsuyu's acid or merely suffocate him with the slug's ability to take people in. If she's able to hold him down, she can also prepare the one hit kill jutsu which was implied to be able to work on Orochimaru. All in all, I think her resillience, regeneration, strength, super durable medical acid spitting slug makes her the better combatant. 



Destiny Monarch said:


> So far, it seems that Tsunade is by far the most overrated Kage, while Ay is by far the most underrated Kage.



Tsunade isn't overrated. There are threads here that think she's taken out by a combination of team 8 or Neji or Hidan or smth. Her regeneration and the fact that she needs to touch you for game over makes her a powerful opponent and just mad difficult to defeat. OTOH, she has to put in the effort to get in that one hit (Katsuyu isn't even a factor in this evaluation but a slug with a fast acting acid who is nigh invulnerable isn't too bad either), which, for me, puts her in the middle of the kages. A, OTOH, has nothing but Diet Minato going for him and I know we like to speed wank into making it the only relevant statistic (trumping ninjutsu, taijutsu styles that aren't speed reliant, etc) but even then what does he have above the other Kage to make him a viable combatant? 

He's outstrengthened by Tsunade, durability and endurance feats are better across a score of Kage, outsped by Tobirama/Minato, etc. His speed is impressive but speed is never quite the cornerstone of any fight and, contrary to what half of the battledome thinks, speed blitzes are few and far in between and rarely fatal yet for some reason most posts go [x] speed blitzes and kills the opponent in 30 seconds.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Her strength itself was enough to crack Madara's Susanno clone. Third Raikage might be able to endure several hits from her, but I highly doubt he's impervious to her strength. Alternatively, she could melt him with Katsuyu's acid or merely suffocate him with the slug's ability to take people in. If she's able to hold him down, she can also prepare the one hit kill jutsu which was implied to be able to work on Orochimaru. All in all, I think her resillience, regeneration, strength, super durable medical acid spitting slug makes her the better combatant.


Saindaime's weakness is Fuuton.

Saindaime at the strongest Fuuton in the manga, and a barrage of others.

sandaime excels in durability. Not only in base, but with his shroud.

Tsunade does not have the strongest hit in the verse.

See where I'm going here?

Not to mention the fact that Tsunade is never going to land a hit on him.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> IThat Jutsu alone is why Minato used to be one of the top tier ninja in this manga.



And the New Jutsu are why Minato only *used * to be but is no longer a top tier in the manga. 




> Outside of Hiraishin kunai throwing range means there's enough distance for Minato to comfortably react to Jinton all day.
> 
> That just ends in a stalemate and I'd bet my money on the young guy in a battle of attrition.



Yeah, that's how I would put it. Except that Oonoki can cover the battlefield with his giant golems, and Oonoki can spam Jinton (Highly chakra taxing Jutsu) and clones, he is no push over when it comes to chakra either.



> Muu's fissile cloning technique is different from Iwa Bunshin.



Exactly my point..........





> That's like saying Itachi cannot use Henge.



I would not go that far. 




> There is no universal set of rules dictating this. If speculation is _reasonable_, then I don't see what the problem is, provided evidence can be shown indicating a high probability or implicit certainty of something (for example, Itachi, someone who was at the top of his class in the ninja academy, being able to use an academy-mandatory Jutsu like Henge, even though he's never done it on-panel).



Ok you know what, il give you that. Though he can't make them on the same scale as Oonoki's. unless you wanna go beyond reasonable speculation. 



> Oonoki uses all of the same Jutsu as Muu (weight manipulation and Jinton), and we know they use the same elements because of Jinton (which means Muu can use Doton). The Doton techniques Oonoki uses aren't especially complicated, either.



Oonoki has clones, and giant golems. Even if you wanted to speculate on Muu being able to use Golems, you can't go as far as to say they are in the same level as Oonoki's. 



> Tobirama doesn't need Edo Tensei to use the exploding tags; it's just easier to do, since they can act as suicide bombers.



Pretty sure you need to be an Edo to use it. Could be wrong if you are willing to prove me wrong. 



> Tobirama doesn't even need Edo Tensei. Hiraishin blitz takes care of Oonoki or Muu, quick and clean.



But he can't do Hirashin blitz someone who flys. 



FlamingRain said:


> He has a mirror...and that's literally it.



Well I was thinking of the feats that he has, or would have, as a perfect Jin but you wish to put blame the statement on misinformation. (How would Obito even come to do something like that?, its seems more probable that Yagura really was a perfect Jin then Obito controlling him to become a perfect Jin). 





> When the Tailed Beast is acting on its own it's not nearly as powerful as when it's collaborating with its host. That should have been obvious when Deidara casually one-shotted Isobu and Hidan/Kakuzu managed to hold off and even injure Matatabi.



That's true. 



> I'm not saying Danzō was necessarily lying, simply that he likely didn't have all the facts.



It seems like wishful thinking from my stand point. 



> _The clam_, which is producing the mist for the mirage, isn't running anywhere. It gets melted and the Genjutsu trolling stops there.



I would think that a crustacean is faster then a slug but that's just me. Also, when you say melted, I really hope you don't mean by Katsuyu's acid. As for her to seperate into different directions would require her to be multiply into small slugs, and small slugs won't be doing anything to the clam. Also, what's stopping Mizukage from killing the Katsuyu's once they come near? Scratch that, would Katsuyu NOT be under the same Genjutsu that Tsunade is? 




> Tsunade maneuvered her roundhouse under Madara's attempt to guard upon arriving to the battlefield through Tensō no Jutsu, the same Madara who blocked Ay's shot with no issue. Consider also that Ay hit Susano'o while it was airborne (no resistance to being moved by the impact) and Tsunade still performed a kick to it before it was blasted away by the force. You don't think Tsunade with her already herculean strength and Chakra-cling method can trade hits with Ay before they separate (he can't hit her and simultaneously back up, he'd have to do either or), not even when you also factor in the potential for a Katsuyu-floor sticky-hold?



What? Madara guarded that attack perfectly fine. And why can't he hit her and back up? The speed gap between them is large enough for him to accomplish something like that. But really, why would he even have to hit her and back up? Can she survive decapitation? Because that's what Ay will be going for. Katsuyu flooding the place will hurt Tsunade just as much as it would hurt Ay, so in the end, its all the same. Tsunade will fair no better then Sasuke once Ay goes V2. Hell, she would get blitzed by V1 Ay, as Sasuke was only able to react thanks to Precog Sharingan and his movement speed is superior to that of Tsunade's at that. 



> Tsunade has shown to summon Katsuyu directly in front of her, the slug is larger than Gamabunta who is more than 100 meters, and I'm not subscribing to the notion that Tsunade is so stupid that she'd try searching for an invisible man that fights at a distance with a technique she can't regenerate from in order to hit him with her hands or feet when she can just use a summoning with far more reach. Even if Mū can react to Katsuyu's appearance he's not getting out of range before she lands- she's too big.



Woah woah woah there, what's with this scaling? Katsuyu is hardly bigger then Gambunta, maybe just a little, but Katsuyu's weight would be really low, as she is nothing but water and mucus. Also, you do not expect me to believe that Tsunade will intentionally summon Katsuyu on top of Muu while he is in Muijn Mode as she has no way of knowing when and where he is, there is no possible way she can time that. ALSO, when has Tsunade shown the ability to use food cart destryoer? I am pretty sure simply summoning something and foot cart destroyer are different things, as when Tsunade summoned boss sized Katsuyu, she was on top of Katsuyu, not under her, same thing would happen with Muu, unless Tsunade knows that Muu is directly in front of her at that exact time. 




> He can't Jinton when he uses that combo, and since that was his only technique that'd kill Tsunade through her regeneration she'd most certainly be an exception.



She can't regenerate a decapitated head. That's what Muu would aim for with his Tanto's. 





> Because?



Refer to second last section


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Not all tailed beast are the same. Also that got rebooted when we found out they are sentient and actually do think (they are actively helping Naruto strategize).

Also Akatsuki was catching people off guard, and sending the perfect teams in for them. Bjuu themselves are considered Top Tier by many people.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Tsunade isn't overrated. There are threads here that think she's taken out by a combination of team 8 or Neji or Hidan or smth. Her regeneration and the fact that she needs to touch you for game over makes her a powerful opponent and just mad difficult to defeat. OTOH, she has to put in the effort to get in that one hit (Katsuyu isn't even a factor in this evaluation but a slug with a fast acting acid who is nigh invulnerable isn't too bad either), which, for me, puts her in the middle of the kages. A, OTOH, has nothing but Diet Minato going for him and I know we like to speed wank into making it the only relevant statistic (trumping ninjutsu, taijutsu styles that aren't speed reliant, etc) but even then what does he have above the other Kage to make him a viable combatant?



I also remember threads where people claimed that she can beat SM Madara or destroy a 3rd Stage Susano'O. Regardless, that was just an observation I made, not trying to say anything by it other then what I said. Touch you is an understatement, she needs to punch you and with her only average speed, its not exactly easy to do that. Katsuyu is hardly an offensive factor, she is good in team battles, that's it. And yes, I can agree that. *Middle of the Kages * is a reasonable place to put her, but certainly not within the Top 5 strongest. Which is her average placement here to my surprise. A significant speed gap is all you need against people who don't have an auto defence like Susano'O. But since you insist, besides that, he has, incredible strength, Chidori level piercing capabilities and insane durability. The only person who can match his durability is the 3rd Raikage and the only one who can match his strength is Tsunade. The only ones who can match his speed are Minato and Tobirama (WITH HIRASHIN) and Hashirama and he has the strongest piercing attack out of any of the Kages bar none as well as a the best mind-set (Decapitate = GG) and just because that's not enough, he has Biju level chakra, which is only matched by Hashirama and his father (And Yagura if people are willing to accept that he was a perfect Jin).


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Blitz her? No. She can certainly try and run, but she can't outrun it.



Why not? The minute she see's it being charged up she just anticipates the attack and then moves out of the way. Jinton's range is 9/10 times quite limited , the only time it wasn't was when Onoki used up considerable chakra in order to form it into a giant beam. He can't keep that beam up like some kind of light sabre though, so as long as she moves when he uses it initially she should still be fine.



> He is as fast if not faster then Deidara on his bird.



She's reacted to things faster than that and at close range as opposed to long range, like Orochimaru. 



> Besides, he does not have to blitz her, she is a CQC anyways so simply touching should not be a problem. Especially with the use of Doton clones which she cannot tell apart.



Onoki sucks at CQC, how on earth is he supposed to touch someone who excels in that area? Clones or no clones, he isn't touching her.



> That was simply one of the many factors that make Oonoki more of a threat in general. Sai's flight is pretty unreliable, as one can throw a pebble and he will drop. He does not have to use Jinton, he can stay invisible and decapitate her. Tsunade has keen senses? That's a fanfic, never has she shown any sort of keen senses. The divisors of Katsuyu cannot communicate telepathically with Tsunade, it would be too late.



Sai can manoeuvre in and out of the way of attacks while on his bird, so throwing a pebble at it would never be able to hit it in the first place. And Muu is not ever going to decapitate Tsunade. Ever. What would he even use? Besides not having the physical strength required to perform a feat like that on someone as durable as her, he doesn't even have any sharp tools. Also, Katsuyu divisions _can_ communicate with Tsunade telepathically. She knew Kakashi was dead despite not having a Katsuyu division beside her to tell her, and also knew that Katsuyu was healing nearly everyone in the village [1] As for Tsunade's keen senses, yes, she has them. ' Sensing ' Kabuto behind her _here_, being able to hear Orochimaru's heartbeat from a few feet away [2], to name just a few. Muu won't be able to sneak up on her, regardless of whether he hides his chakra or not.




> Of course she has more physical strength, but that and healing is all she has going for her. Not enough to overcome most Kage + level opponents.



Physical strength, taijutsu skill, healing, Katsuyu and various offensive medical ninjutsu too. She can stand her ground against and defeat many of shinobi on this list.



> She will be dead by the time they find him, and once they find him, he can move away. She can last for a long time but not forever, eventually she would go down, with Mizukage unscathed. Its not like the second they find him, his mist goes away after all.



As far as feats are concerned Tsunade has bigger chakra reserves than the Nidaime Mizukage does. Actually, Tsunade has infinite potential stamina-wise, because the more chakra she stores in her seal the more she can utilise in battle. The Mizukage definitely isn't outlasting her Byakugou before thousands upon thousands of Katsuyu clones scouting around in a plethora of different directions find him and report his location to her. 





> Her arm has a limited reach, so even if she was able to s,ash through his sand, her arm would stop at the time that her body touches the sand. Sand Tsunami makes it a GG as at that point, Gaara can finish her whatever way he would like (He can bury her hundreds of meters underground or simply continuously crush her with sand coffin). She would not be able to summon Katsuyu if she is deep beneath the ground, as she would need to get blood first. Back in Part 1 he was able to use Sand Tsunami's fairly quickly, now it should be a piece of cake. And that's just 1 V 1 talk. In. Terms of overall strength as a whole, Gaara's sand is far more versatile and therefore, more suited to fight different varieties of opponents then Tsunade's one strategy.



I don't understand your point. When the sand binds her appendage, as soon as she smacks it, whatever sand specifically is covering the appendage will be removed. She doesn't need to have super-range with her strikes in order to do that. If you're referring to her ability to get past his sand shield, then no, she smashes through his shield and then her strike continues to move forward until it hits Gaara. Granted it's impact would be reduced significantly but Gaara is still going to take heavy damage, and he's going to be defenceless when she follows up with another strike. Also, no, she would not be able to summon Katsuyu if she was hundreds of meters below the ground, but she has loads of time to summon her before that happens [3] Personally, even with her more limited arsenal I think Tsunade's incredible battle longevity, surprise-retaliations and one-shot kill jutsu allow her to take on just as many different kinds of foes as Gaara, its just that as well as that I think she would defeat him in most instances too. 



> He cuts her head off, Byakougo is not saving her at that point. Ay goes for decapitation with his chops all the time, against Tsunade it would be no different. The only time Tsunade would ever manage to land a blow is when Ay runs out of chakra, which is not happening. Katsuyu cannot do anything to Ay, it will. Be almost as if she is not even there, that is, if Tsunade was even capable of surviving that long. And no, her tank and charge strategy is not more useful then Ay's straight up blitz strategy. They both have linear strategy's, but the difference is that Ay's is far more effective.



I have had this debate so very many times that I'm just going to say right now, that I won't be having a prolonged debate over this with you. I just cannot be bothered. I'll make my thoughts explicitly clear nd if you still disagree then whatever:

Ei is not so fast that he can blitz Tsunade from _any_ range past about 5 meters, so quickly that she cannot even raise her arms to her face in order to stop him chopping her head off, especially not since she's an expert at taijutsu (she has a 5/5 in the DB). Furthermore, Ei _never_ uses slicing attacks, _ever_. In every single instance he has ever thrown attacks, with the exception of one, he has thrown _punches_. This was the case even against faster opponents, like Madara or CS2 Juugo. So basically, he shunshins at her, throws a punch which she blocks and then gets thrown backwards. Alternatively, she takes the attack directly, smacks him while he thinks she's injured, and then regenerates afterwards while he remains damaged.

If she summons Katsuyu and he then tries to run up her back to reach Tsunade, the slug can liquefy her body during the same time scale that he completely scales her back and reaches Tsunade - that will knock him into the air meaning he can't evade, meaning he can't dodge Tsunade's strikes. Alternatively, if he tries to jump from obstacle to obstacle in order to reach Tsunade's height as she sits on Katsuyu head, and then jumps *towards* Tsunade, Katsuyu can melt him with acid, because gravity will be heavily in control of his speed/movement (meaning he'll be moving a lot slower) and he'll be prone to getting hit.



> Not at all, if she is within range of a Bijudama its over, its not something she can tank. If she is in close, she still does not stand a chance.



If she's at a range then she would lose, but if she's up close she still wins for aforementioned reasons which you failed to refute.​​


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 20, 2014)

i agree with what some others have said, Tsunade is way too high on most ppls lists its laughable  and Ei is too low, highly underrated .

1.SM Hashirama. No argument
2.BM Minato
3.Tobirama
4.Prime Hiruzen (all hail the hype)
5.3rd Raikage
6.V2 Ei
7.Muu
8.Oonoki
9.Yagura
10.Gaara
11.2nd mizukage
12.3rd kazekage
13.4th kazekage
14.Tsunade
15.Danzo
16. Mei


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> I also remember threads where people claimed that she can beat SM Madara or destroy a 3rd Stage Susano'O. Regardless, that was just an observation I made, not trying to say anything by it other then what I said. Touch you is an understatement, she needs to punch you and with her only average speed, its not exactly easy to do that. Katsuyu is hardly an offensive factor, she is good in team battles, that's it. And yes, I can agree that. *Middle of the Kages * is a reasonable place to put her, but certainly not within the Top 5 strongest. Which is her average placement here to my surprise. A significant speed gap is all you need against people who don't have an auto defence like Susano'O. But since you insist, besides that, he has, incredible strength, Chidori level piercing capabilities and insane durability. The only person who can match his durability is the 3rd Raikage and the only one who can match his strength is Tsunade. The only ones who can match his speed are Minato and Tobirama (WITH HIRASHIN) and Hashirama and he has the strongest piercing attack out of any of the Kages bar none as well as a the best mind-set (Decapitate = GG) and just because that's not enough, he has Biju level chakra, which is only matched by Hashirama and his father (And Yagura if people are willing to accept that he was a perfect Jin).



Touch is not an understatement. A single finger was enough to rip up an alleyway. A _partial_ blow from Tsunade is crippling and will definitely lead to a full hit with a follow up attack. Her speed is definitely above average. It's not in the league of Guy/Raikage/etc. but it's adequate. If she was too slow to hit anything, she wouldn't have been regarded as a skilled opponent against Orochimaru (who she was able to hit with torn muscles despite him focusing on her enough to notice she stopped trembling) and Madara, who was also being blasted about Onokipack!A. 

Katsuyu doesn't need to be an offensive factor; offensiveness is not the only thing that matters here. Her durability here is enough to put most opponents in a bind, especially when they have to focus on her (or her clones) and Tsunade. The acidic pools on the ground will also prevent people from being able to move adequately. All Katsuyu really has to do is get in the way. 

Tsunade's strength >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raikage's. Tsunade also has two sets of chakra and was able to heal Konoha, an entire village, twice over. Her chakra reserves are just as large as A's if we're going by feats. Also, decapitation wouldn't work against Tsunade if Katsuyu was there or if she had her regeneration on, as she can easily just regenerate. The jutsu has been stated to be able to heal any wound or organ and considering how she's regenerated bone, muscle, organs and even most likely a facial injury from Susanno's strongest far ranged attack, she'll be all right here. I mean, this is the woman that survived being chopped in half for whatever reason. (As much as I like her, even I'm still baffled at that). 



Dr. White said:


> Saindaime's weakness is Fuuton.
> 
> Saindaime at the strongest Fuuton in the manga, and a barrage of others.
> 
> ...


Sandaime's weakness is Futon based Jutsu, but I'm going to believe that acid that melted rock in seconds is going to be able melt flesh. 


The Third Raikage wasn't noted for speed, he was noted for durability. Tsunade isn't a _slow_ combatant. She might not be a speedbeast, but manga portrayal has made it clear that she's more than able to at least keep up with opponents speedwise. After all, she was able to appear on the other side of Madara's attack from A/Onoki before he was blasted in the opposite direction. 
That said, I do think Sandaime could defeat her in combat for what it's worth. I just also think the reverse might be possible.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Sandaime's weakness is Futon based Jutsu, but I'm going to believe that acid that melted rock in seconds is going to be able melt flesh.


She gets blitzed before she can summon. If she summons Katsuya he evades the acid and slices her foring her to split.

Also my point was if he can survive light speed travelling, and getting hit by FRS which destroys cells and still keep going he can take nay damage Tsunade is dishing out. His durability and resilience are ridiculous. 




> The Third Raikage wasn't noted for speed, he was noted for durability. Tsunade isn't a _slow_ combatant. She might not be a speedbeast, but manga portrayal has made it clear that she's more than able to at least keep up with opponents speedwise. After all, she was able to appear on the other side of Madara's attack from A/Onoki before he was blasted in the opposite direction.
> That said, I do think Sandaime could defeat her in combat for what it's worth. I just also think the reverse might be possible.


Sandaime has a V1 cloak which boost his speed and reactions greatly. He doesn't have V2, but even V1 is extremely fast. Sandaime was shown to be on par with V1 Ei. Which is >>> Tsunade in speed.

He freaking dodged KCM FRS from like 30 ft away prompting Naruto's praise.

Then did it again.

Concerning Madara:
-He was toying with them and testing their mettle. when he got serious he no diffed them. Had time been of the essence from the beginning the kages get no diff'd and possibly Naruto (if he didn't go BM).
-Her feat doesn't mean what you are making it out to be because she had aid from 4 other kage level ninja taking up Madara's attention.

Madara vs Tsunade mono e Mono results in her getting scraped no PS necessary.


----------



## SSMG (Jul 20, 2014)

^^ Actually butterfly, naruto comments on the third raikage being fast like the fourth.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 20, 2014)

Tsunade loses to Gaara more times then not
She also loses to
Ay
Ohnoki
And anyone higher than them. She is the second to last weakest kage.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> 3rd Raikage makes Tsunade mush. There is nothing she can do to him



Not saying Tsuande could beat the Sandaime Raikage but she clearly has the means to kill him.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 20, 2014)

All I know is Danzo is way too low. 10min of invincibility and Koto is absolutely broken. And the kicker is people are rating Ei vastly higher than Danzo, when Ei fought a weaker Sasuke to at best an extremely high diff win, while a handicapped Danzo w/o Koto fought a much stronger Sasuke to a draw (pre-Karin healing him). The Danzo underration makes no sense to me


----------



## kingcools (Jul 20, 2014)

the idea of the list is already fallacious!

People on here agree that A > B > C does not apply, therefore you can only say A is stronger than B if and only if A beats B AND also beats EVERYONE B defeats.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 20, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> What the hell? Most of the Gokage in this list are ranked quiet low and Minato is in such a higher tier and for some reason he can't take on the Gokage?



The Gokage as a whole are ranked higher than Base Minato.

Anyone of them gives him a good fight besides probably Mei


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Why not? The minute she see's it being charged up she just anticipates the attack and then moves out of the way. Jinton's range is 9/10 times quite limited , the only time it wasn't was when Onoki used up considerable chakra in order to form it into a giant beam. He can't keep that beam up like some kind of light sabre though, so as long as she moves when he uses it initially she should still be fine.​




That laser beam would be more then enough to take Tsunade out, I would be sceptical about her dodging Jinton to being with, a moving Jinton is out of the question.   





> She's reacted to things faster than that and at close range as opposed to long range, like Orochimaru.



Orochimaru is not faster then either Deidara or Oonoki. Let alone a sick Oro who is merely turning his head with the Kusanagi blade. 




> Onoki sucks at CQC, how on earth is he supposed to touch someone who excels in that area? Clones or no clones, he isn't touching her.



His speed is greater then hers. But if that's not enough to convince you, clones. He makes 2-3 Doton clones and attacks from all directions, she has no way of knowing which one is the real one, she hits one, either him or the other Bunshin lowers her weight to that of a meteors. From there he can do as he pleases. 





> Sai can manoeuvre in and out of the way of attacks while on his bird, so throwing a pebble at it would never be able to hit it in the first place. And Muu is not ever going to decapitate Tsunade. Ever. What would he even use? Besides not having the physical strength required to perform a feat like that on someone as durable as her, he doesn't even have any sharp tools. Also, Katsuyu divisions _can_ communicate with Tsunade telepathically. She knew Kakashi was dead despite not having a Katsuyu division beside her to tell her, and also knew that Katsuyu was healing nearly everyone in the village [1] As for Tsunade's keen senses, yes, she has them. ' Sensing ' Kabuto behind her _here_, being able to hear Orochimaru's heartbeat from a few feet away [2], to name just a few. Muu won't be able to sneak up on her, regardless of whether he hides his chakra or not


.

Well he couldn't manoeuvre his way out of a Jubifodders attack so..........Muu has two Tantos on his back, that's his attire, unless your talking Edo Muu. And Tsunade is not durable, she has been canonically been pierced/injured by everything that hits her, she simply heals from it, durability =/= endurance. Tsunade can summon them back to her to tell her, she also usually has a Katsuyu on her shoulder. She knew Katsuyu was healing the village because its straight up obvious, what else would Katsuyu be doing. For the first one, that's not impressive, being able to react to Part 1 Kabuto, if a Ninja cannot do that, then they are not even Jonin level. For the second point, that's impressive, but that's not the type of sense that would be useful in battle, the feat pertains more to her medical knowledge. Those feats are tiers below the feats required to be able to avoid Muu in Mujin Mode, as they are feats that even Early Part 1 Sakura would probably be able to do. So yes, my statement stands, Muu would effortlessly be able to sneak up on her in Mujin Mode. 




> Physical strength, taijutsu skill, healing, Katsuyu and various offensive medical ninjutsu too. She can stand her ground against and defeat many of shinobi on this list.



Half of them at best. And I am being nice to her by saying that. 





> As far as feats are concerned Tsunade has bigger chakra reserves than the Nidaime Mizukage does. Actually, Tsunade has infinite potential stamina-wise, because the more chakra she stores in her seal the more she can utilise in battle. The Mizukage definitely isn't outlasting her Byakugou before thousands upon thousands of Katsuyu clones scouting around in a plethora of different directions find him and report his location to her.



Sure, Tsunade has more chakra reserves then him. But that does not mean she will outlast him, as she will be wasting more chakra on healing her injuries then Nidaime will be wasting on his own Jutsu. First of all, what's stopping Mizukage from destroying the Katsuyu clones? Secondly, what's stopping Mizukage from moving places? 






> I don't understand your point. When the sand binds her appendage, as soon as she smacks it, whatever sand specifically is covering the appendage will be removed. She doesn't need to have super-range with her strikes in order to do that. If you're referring to her ability to get past his sand shield, then no, she smashes through his shield and then her strike continues to move forward until it hits Gaara. Granted it's impact would be reduced significantly but Gaara is still going to take heavy damage, and he's going to be defenceless when she follows up with another strike. Also, no, she would not be able to summon Katsuyu if she was hundreds of meters below the ground, but she has loads of time to summon her before that happens [3] Personally, even with her more limited arsenal I think Tsunade's incredible battle longevity, surprise-retaliations and one-shot kill jutsu allow her to take on just as many different kinds of foes as Gaara, its just that as well as that I think she would defeat him in most instances too.



No, she does not have the strength in all her body to simply blow past Gaara's ultimate defence. The strength she concentrates in her fists will be the only thing that will be getting through, so ultimately, her range o fitting Gaara is reduced to her arm length. If she summons it at that point, then Katsuyu will be on the ground while she will still be going deeper and deeper into the ground. And I disagree, honestly, when it comes to versatility, no one bar the God-Tiers are as versatile as Gaara (One Object can create limitless possibilitys), Tsunade can't compare, as even someone like Asuma has a good chance agains her if he plays his cards right due to being a perfect counter. 





> Ei is not so fast that he can blitz Tsunade from _any_ range past about 5 meters, so quickly that she cannot even raise her arms to her face in order to stop him chopping her head off, especially not since she's an expert at taijutsu (she has a 5/5 in the DB). Furthermore, Ei _never_ uses slicing attacks, _ever_. In every single instance he has ever thrown attacks, with the exception of one, he has thrown _punches_. This was the case even against faster opponents, like Madara or CS2 Juugo. So basically, he shunshins at her, throws a punch which she blocks and then gets thrown backwards. Alternatively, she takes the attack directly, smacks him while he thinks she's injured, and then regenerates afterwards while he remains damaged.



There is really only three things that I need to say to this:

Sasuke is not only has Sharingan Precog, but is also physically faster then her, and even he could not react to him. Tsunade won't be reacting to even V1 Ay. 

Ay ALWAYS goes for the chops. The only time he has NOT was against Naruto (He did not want to kill him) and Minato. Other then that, he always goes for the chops. Against Sasuke, against Hachibi, against Madara, against the Buddha. 

Assuming Ay goes V2 he : Shunshins the behind her before she even realized what happened and cuts her head off OR Ay goes V1 and makes a frontal assault, she attempts to match his assault but he swiftly dodges her attack while his attack hits her through the neck. GG. 



> If she summons Katsuyu and he then tries to run up her back to reach Tsunade, the slug can liquefy her body during the same time scale that he completely scales her back and reaches Tsunade - that will knock him into the air meaning he can't evade, meaning he can't dodge Tsunade's strikes. Alternatively, if he tries to jump from obstacle to obstacle in order to reach Tsunade's height as she sits on Katsuyu head, and then jumps *towards* Tsunade, Katsuyu can melt him with acid, because gravity will be heavily in control of his speed/movement (meaning he'll be moving a lot slower) and he'll be prone to getting hit.



Ay will get to her far before Katsuyu even has the mind-set of liquefying. If she is on top of Katsuyu, Ay still shunshins behind her, it won't change a damn thing. Tsunade is no where near as fast as Sasuke and does not have his precognition so how do you expect her to evade Ay's attack when Sasuke was completely helpless to his speed? 





> If she's at a range then she would lose, but if she's up close she still wins for aforementioned reasons which you failed to refute.


​
She is not upper cutting Isobu making his Bijudama fly up, that's yet another scenario straight from a Tsunade fanfic.


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 20, 2014)

SSMG said:


> ^^ Actually butterfly, naruto comments on the third raikage being fast like the fourth.



I actually meant to concede that point. I recalled it when I was looking through the manga, but I managed to forget taking it out before I hit post cause this forum lags for me. 



Dr. White said:


> She gets blitzed before she can summon. If she summons Katsuya he evades the acid and slices her foring her to split.


She's not going to get blitzed, lmao. When A was captured in a moment's distraction from a Madara!Clone, Tsunade was able to attack a clone from behind which is pretty impressive. She at least has the reaction speed to prevent being lolbitzed. 

Katsuyu, depending on distance, could have quite the range with her acid. When she first used it, it dwarfed her attenaes, which, in turn, were 5 times the size of aTsunade. He would have to evade by left or right movements and get _away_ from Katsuyu, not advance forward. And he's not going to be able to slice a giant slug into size that would make Tsunade more reachable. She's a monstrously sized slug and can easily reform herself anyways, making cutting a temporary solution at best. 



> Also my point was if he can survive light speed travelling, and getting hit by FRS which destroys cells and still keep going he can take nay damage Tsunade is dishing out. His durability and resilience are ridiculous.


Different types of attacks though. Even if he's not going to take _fatal_ damage, he'll still take some. Even then, the force of the attacks will at least knock him backwards, giving Tsunade time to summon katsuyu.




> Sandaime has a V1 cloak which boost his speed and reactions greatly. He doesn't have V2, but even V1 is extremely fast. Sandaime was shown to be on par with V1 Ei. Which is >>> Tsunade in speed.


Agreed, obviously. But that's not going to be enough to blitz her face and end the match within 60 seconds. 




> Concerning Madara:
> -He was toying with them and testing their mettle. when he got serious he no diffed them. Had time been of the essence from the beginning the kages get no diff'd and possibly Naruto (if he didn't go BM).
> -Her feat doesn't mean what you are making it out to be because she had aid from 4 other kage level ninja taking up Madara's attention.
> 
> Madara vs Tsunade mono e Mono results in her getting scraped no PS necessary.


What's your point with this? Toying!Madara can No Diff 99.96% of the cast. Replace any of the Five Kage with any other five ninja, and you'd probably have results that are even worse. 

The whole point of the feat that I pointed out is that she was able to keep up with an Ally renowned for speed _made faster_ by someone who lightened him to ridiculous extents. That alone proves that she has perfectly adequate speed for offensive and defensive reactions, We have a benchmark to compare her speed to, is what I'm saying and it doesn't matter that Madara was facing 4 or 40 opponents, since I'm stating Tsunade must have perfectly adequate speed to avoid getting blitzed if she's able to get to Madara's location moments after Onokipack!A struck Madara from behind.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> All I know is Danzo is way too low. 10min of invincibility and Koto is absolutely broken. And the kicker is people are rating Ei vastly higher than Danzo, when Ei fought a weaker Sasuke to at best an extremely high diff win, while a handicapped Danzo w/o Koto fought a much stronger Sasuke to a draw (pre-Karin healing him). The Danzo underration makes no sense to me



Calm down, Turrin; your Danzo boner is world-famous.

The truth is, it's important to note the Raikage's mental state when he fought Sasuke and how that compromised his performance. I mean, Sasuke could not touch him at all and the Raikage literally threw his own arm away just so he could get a hit through Sasuke's guard, when he _could have_ easily just kept avoiding Sasuke until his immature Susano'o (with no offensive capabilities) killed him via chakra drain. A's biggest enemy there was himself.

Danzou's pretty broken, sure, but the Raikage can last longer than 10 minutes, and Danzou might not even get that much time if his arms aren't unsealed at the very beginning of a fight with him.



Kazekage94 said:


> Tsunade loses to Gaara more times then not
> She also loses to
> Ay
> Ohnoki
> And anyone higher than them. She is the second to last weakest kage.



Gaara can't do shit to Tsunade; she outright tanked Madara's Magatama, which easily punched holes in Gaara's sand shield and nearly went all the way through Oonoki's stone golem on the other side. She tanks everything Gaara dishes, and what little damage (if any) he manages to inflict gets healed and he runs out of chakra just trying to move enough sand to hurt her.



SSMG said:


> ^^ Actually butterfly, naruto comments on the third raikage being fast like the fourth.



He said the Raikage were both fast, not that they were equally fast.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

kingcools said:


> the idea of the list is already fallacious!
> 
> People on here agree that A > B > C does not apply, therefore you can only say A is stronger than B if and only if A beats B AND also beats EVERYONE B defeats.



Not in the slightest. A does not have to defeat everyone B defeats, he just has to be a bigger threat in general. 



Butterfly said:


> Touch is not an understatement. A single finger was enough to rip up an alleyway. A _partial_ blow from Tsunade is crippling and will definitely lead to a full hit with a follow up attack. Her speed is definitely above average. It's not in the league of Guy/Raikage/etc. but it's adequate. If she was too slow to hit anything, she wouldn't have been regarded as a skilled opponent against Orochimaru (who she was able to hit with torn muscles despite him focusing on her enough to notice she stopped trembling) and Madara, who was also being blasted about Onokipack!A.



Ay in only V1, was able to utterly destroy a big section of the location he and Sasuke where fighting in as well as chip Ribcage Susano'O by hitting Susano'O against the ground while Susano'O was only several centimetres above the ground to begin with, in other words, he caused that much distruction with no momentum. His strength may be below Tsunade's but not by a whole lot. Her speed is far from above average, its average, plain and simply, even the DB agrees. She has shown absolutely no speed feats that warrant her a above average speed title. Orochimaru is known to play around and take hits for fun, Tsunade had to hit him straight in the face with as much momentum as possible to do anything to Orochimaru. 



> Katsuyu doesn't need to be an offensive factor; offensiveness is not the only thing that matters here. Her durability here is enough to put most opponents in a bind, especially when they have to focus on her (or her clones) and Tsunade. The acidic pools on the ground will also prevent people from being able to move adequately. All Katsuyu really has to do is get in the way.



Her durability is only a factor against the idiots who waste their time attacking her more the once. Tsunade will also be affected by acid on the ground. 



> Tsunade's strength >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raikage's. Tsunade also has two sets of chakra and was able to heal Konoha, an entire village, twice over. Her chakra reserves are just as large as A's if we're going by feats. Also, decapitation wouldn't work against Tsunade if Katsuyu was there or if she had her regeneration on, as she can easily just regenerate. The jutsu has been stated to be able to heal any wound or organ and considering how she's regenerated bone, muscle, organs and even most likely a facial injury from Susanno's strongest far ranged attack, she'll be all right here. I mean, this is the woman that survived being chopped in half for whatever reason. (As much as I like her, even I'm still baffled at that).



As I examined in the first part, Ay's strength and hers are not too far off each other. She was able to heal the village with the help of Katsuyu and hundreads of other medical Nin. Her chakra is not Biju level, Ay's is Biju level, as he put Biju level chakra into his V2 shroud alone as noted by Karin. If Tsunade is decapitated, she is dead, re-sticking her body would not do anything for her, the only person who can survive decapitation in the manga is Hidan, due to his immortality. Many people have survived being chopped in half, Orochimaru did it with a grin on his face and Madara continued fighting with the top half of his body. Juubito has also survived it. Being cut in half and loosing your head are two different things entirely.


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 20, 2014)

nah homie, gaara crushes her which would insta kill her brain and all. his sand was used in a defensive manner which is in no way comparable to what madara's attack did to her. Worse case Gaara drags her 200meters below the earth she dies. 3rd raikage owns her and 4th owns her even more


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 20, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> nah homie, gaara crushes her which would insta kill her brain and all. his sand was used in a defensive manner which is in no way comparable to what madara's attack did to her. Worse case Gaara drags her 200meters below the earth she dies.



Gaara doesn't have the power to crush her, and burying 200m underground didn't stop Kimimaro, who is nowhere near as strong as Tsunade.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Ay and Tsunades physical strength is leagues apart. 

[1]
[1]


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

comparing Bya Tsunade to V1 Ei? She is stronger but that wasn't honest.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jul 20, 2014)

01. Hashirama
02. Tobirama
03. Minato
04. TrollKage
05. Muu 
06. Onoki/
07. Tsunade
08. Raikagenaut
09. Gaara
10. Hiruzen  
11. Yagura
12. Ei
13. Mei
14.  Sandaime Kazekage
15. Yondaime Kazekage


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> comparing Bya Tsunade to V1 Ei? She is stronger but that wasn't honest.



Byakago Tsuande isn't any stronger then base Tsuande. Don't even try argue against this because Godaime Tsunade pretty much proved this well.

V2 Ay is stronger then V1 Ay but enough to close the gap between what V1 Ay did to Madara and what Tsuande did. V1 didn't even scratch Madara while Tsuande obliterated an entire half of his body.

That's like being Average Human strength to spider-man level strength. Huge difference.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Ay and Tsunades physical strength is leagues apart.   [1] [1]




That's not a fair comparison. Comparing V1 Ay's punch which was blocked to a Tsunade punch on a clone which was not blocked. This is a more accurate comparison:  



Ay 

Clearly not leagues apart.


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Gaara doesn't have the power to crush her, and burying 200m underground didn't stop Kimimaro, who is nowhere near as strong as Tsunade.


says who? And kimi was only able to get out because of Sawarabi no Mai,hes able to travel through the bones thus bypassing him actually moving his body physically, tsunade cant do this, her abilities aren't comparable to kimi's when it comes to that situation.



Destiny Monarch said:


> That's not a fair comparison. Comparing V1 Ay's punch which was blocked to a Tsunade punch on a clone which was not blocked.


Funny how they forget the details right.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> That's not a fair comparison. Comparing V1 Ay's punch which was blocked to a Tsunade punch on a clone which was not blocked. This is a more accurate comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Blocking does what ? If Ay was even close to that level of strentgh of Tsuande he would have obliterated Madara's arms as soon as he made contact.

the problem with that is Tsuandes muscles were severed thus making her hit way weaker.

It's the reason Kabuto could survive against her in part 1: Ay 
Ay


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Gaara doesn't have the power to crush her, and burying 200m underground didn't stop Kimimaro, who is nowhere near as strong as Tsunade.



Tsunade falls prey to Gaara's mass AoE. She can't overpower that period.


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Ay in only V1, was able to utterly destroy a big section of the location he and Sasuke where fighting in as well as chip Ribcage Susano'O by hitting Susano'O against the ground while Susano'O was only several centimetres above the ground to begin with, in other words, he caused that much distruction with no momentum. His strength may be below Tsunade's but not by a whole lot. Her speed is far from above average, its average, plain and simply, even the DB agrees. She has shown absolutely no speed feats that warrant her a above average speed title. Orochimaru is known to play around and take hits for fun, Tsunade had to hit him straight in the face with as much momentum as possible to do anything to Orochimaru.


What the Raikage used gravity and his whole body to do, Tsunade replicated it with a single leg. There's no argument that Raikage strength is close to Tsunade's. He's strong, but Tsunade's strength is another tier higher. 

The "databook" also agrees that she has a 5 in Taijutsu, and that while her Sozo Saisei is active, death is an impossible task. A single punch from a near chakra exhausted Tsunade was enough to knock Orochimaru out and he fled not too soon after.  Orochimaru also stated that a single blow from Tsunade is lethal. 

As for Tsunade's speed feats, she has quite a couple that dictate that she has above average speed. There's her, rusty, being able to evade Kabuto from underground despite suffering from exhaustion (Kabuto was not exhausted, he took soldier pills to relieve that). Tsunade also was able to strike Kabuto with damaged muscles, including her intercostals, during the brief moment he took her eyes off her. She was able to intercept Manda with the precision required to maneuver a giant sword. And, even then, with three stab wounds, damaged muscles, etc. she was able to get up and kick Orochimaru in the face and keep in mind Orochimaru was also watching her intently. 

Part 2 has her being able to strike Madara before A and Onoki's attack could blast him anywhere, meaning that she does have decent speed. She was also able to keep up with Madara clones who were able to grapple the fastest ninja alive in the brief moment he was distracted, indicating that her speed isn't _lacking_. It's just not her forte. This means, conclusively, she'll be able to defend herself with faster opponents. She's not going to be blitzed and ended. If the gap of speed was large enough, that'd be true but it's not happening with Raikage with a single arm. 



> Her durability is only a factor against the idiots who waste their time attacking her more the once. Tsunade will also be affected by acid on the ground.


Or who waste their time attacking her at all while regenerating. 




> As I examined in the first part, Ay's strength and hers are not too far off each other. She was able to heal the village with the help of Katsuyu and hundreads of other medical Nin. Her chakra is not Biju level, Ay's is Biju level, as he put Biju level chakra into his V2 shroud alone as noted by Karin.


Tsunade's strength, let me state this again, outclasses A. What A used his whole body to do, Tsunade did with a foot and a leg. What A used his whole body to do, Tsunade replicated a similar feat with a _finger_. Madara notes that she's stronger than him, strength wise. 

Those medical ninja were not being used. Shizune and Ino were chilling trying to piece together a great mystery. Sakura calmly healed a girl's knee. Tsunade gave up her _stored_ chakra to heal an entire village after Pain demolished it. Katsuyu noted this. The fact that she's able to heal thousands of ninja and prevent fatalities through her summon (who took her chakra, as Tsunade commanded or poured into) speaks volumes of her stamina. She has some of the best stamina feats in the manga. 



> If Tsunade is decapitated, she is dead, re-sticking her body would not do anything for her, the only person who can survive decapitation in the manga is Hidan, due to his immortality. Many people have survived being chopped in half, Orochimaru did it with a grin on his face and Madara continued fighting with the top half of his body. Juubito has also survived it. Being cut in half and loosing your head are two different things entirely.


Not really. There is no argument to decapitation other than it _should_ happen. Hell, Orochimaru was decapitated right in the manga in his fight with Sasuke but reappeared later intact. Tsunade should be able to regenerate her body on the basis that her jutsu has regenerated such things and doesn't need to focus to heal. 

Also, I should point that the brain is never emphasized as a required thing to live in this manga. Sasori removed all of his organs instead of his heart. Kakuzu seems to have four hearts, not four brains. Also, souls are a tangible thing in this manga that you cannot survive without.  old thread has more details and explanations. 



> comparing Bya Tsunade to V1 Ei? She is stronger but that wasn't honest.


that's not the intention. My intention is to show that Tsunade has no problem at least putting up a fight against speedier opponents. The whole "she gets blitzed immediately and dies" argument is a fallacy. She can eventually get overwhelmed by her opponents speed and the rallies could cause irreparable damage, yes but getting blitzed isn't something that's going to happen.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Byakago Tsuande isn't any stronger then base Tsuande. Don't even try argue against this because Godaime Tsunade pretty much proved this well.


Accepted by Likesboss =/ proven.

Byakugou improves Sakura's strength by giving her more chakra to concentrate but not Tsunade's despite her having better feats with it? No thanks.



> V2 Ay is stronger then V1 Ay but enough to close the gap between what V1 Ay did to Madara and what Tsuande did. V1 didn't even scratch Madara while Tsuande obliterated an entire half of his body.


He blocked Ei's strike not tsunade's. She kicked him and he gracefully recovered.


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Accepted by Likesboss =/ proven.
> 
> Byakugou improves Sakura's strength by giving her more chakra to concentrate but not Tsunade's despite her having better feats with it? No thanks.


Base!Tsunade has better strength feats than Byakugou!Tsunade. It's likely that Tsunade's seal focused on regenerative jutsu. It was confirmed, to my recollection, that Tsunade's use of the transformation jutsu makes her unable to exert as much strength in her battles. 




> He blocked Ei's strike not tsunade's. She kicked him and he gracefully recovered.


Yes, but Tsunade was also coughing blood and you can see that she had tears on her body. It's likely that heavenly transfer shredded her internals which she quickly healed from, thus explaining her weaker kick to Madara.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Accepted by Likesboss =/ proven.
> 
> Byakugou improves Sakura's strength by giving her more chakra to concentrate but not Tsunade's despite her having better feats with it? No thanks.
> 
> ...



Don't see where it improved sakuras strength.

It gives the user more chakra thus allowing more Chakra enhanced punches but not stronger ones.

Ha. Byakago Tsunade doesn't have better feats. You have no idea what your talking about.

Okay? Yet you clearly seem to not comprehend that the muscles in her legs were severed. It's the sole reason she could dead on hit Kabuto without obliterating him back in part 1.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Don't see where it improved sakuras strength.


sakura had good strengths prior to the war, but nothing close to her Juubi punch. Then amidst all the rookies pulling out new shit, she pulls out Byakugo and blast the surrounding hundred yards of stone into dust.

You tell me what Kishi was telling us 



> It gives the user more chakra thus allowing more Chakra enhanced punches but not stronger ones.


What? that is the technique they use to maximize damage on punches. therefore the more chakra concentrated into a single point and released the stronger the punch.



> Ha. Byakago Tsunade doesn't have better feats. You have no idea what your talking about.


Yes she fucking does, show something from her base form remotely close to her Byakugo form.



> Okay? Yet you clearly seem to not comprehend that the muscles in her legs were severed. It's the sole reason she could dead on hit Kabuto without obliterating him back in part 1


BS She got a solid hit on Kabuto twice and didn't do jack. If she was as strong as you say even say 10% of her strength should have busted his face. seeing as she had the strength throw a fist/use jutsu odds are she was good enough to blow off Kabuto's face with her random blows (not concentrated.)


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Blocking does what ? If Ay was even close to that level of strentgh of Tsuande he would have obliterated Madara's arms as soon as he made contact.



Blocking does wonders. Blocking can make the difference between being unharmed and being knocked out unconscious, and that's just in real life, in the Narutoverse, the importance of blocking is amplified. 



> the problem with that is Tsuandes muscles were severed thus making her hit way weaker.



What a null point, she says she was completely fine because she healed herself. Seems like a petty excuse to me. 



Butterfly said:


> What the Raikage used gravity and his whole body to do, Tsunade replicated it with a single leg. There's no argument that Raikage strength is close to Tsunade's. He's strong, but Tsunade's strength is another tier higher.



Actually its the complete opposite, Ay did not have momentum on his side, Tsunade did when she kicked, Ay did not use his entire body, only his arms, and the movements where less then favourable. Tsunade strength is far from on a whole other level. Their strength is *very * close, saying otherwise is pure fanboyism (And you said you are a fan of Tsunade, so I can see why it would be so). We have blatant feats. Want more? Without any momentum whatsoever, Ay's chop basically ignores Susano'O and hits Sasuke in the neck, a feat that is damn near the same thing as Tsunade's feat of cracking Susano'O. 



> The "databook" also agrees that she has a 5 in Taijutsu, and that while her Sozo Saisei is active, death is an impossible task. A single punch from a near chakra exhausted Tsunade was enough to knock Orochimaru out and he fled not too soon after.  Orochimaru also stated that a single blow from Tsunade is lethal.



Having a high stat in Taijutsu does not say anything about speed. While Sozo is active, death can still be accomplished, by cutting off her head. Tsunade punched Oro with as much momentum as possible, she literally swung him right into her punch at full force, and Oro was not in a condition any better then hers. He fled because the number of opponents where overwhelming and backup could have surely been on the way.  



> As for Tsunade's speed feats, she has quite a couple that dictate that she has above average speed. There's her, rusty, being able to evade Kabuto from underground despite suffering from exhaustion (Kabuto was not exhausted, he took soldier pills to relieve that). Tsunade also was able to strike Kabuto with damaged muscles, including her intercostals, during the brief moment he took her eyes off her. She was able to intercept Manda with the precision required to maneuver a giant sword. And, even then, with three stab wounds, damaged muscles, etc. she was able to get up and kick Orochimaru in the face and keep in mind Orochimaru was also watching her intently.



She was not exhausted, stop twisting the truth, and dodging Part 1 Kabuto is something every Jonin level Ninja should be capable of doing, not a good feat. She struck Kabuto because he got cocky and let his guard down. There was no speed involved with the giant sword, how can speed en be involved when she was in the air and can to fly? That's not even a speed feat to begin with. Oro was also cocky and thought she was down for the count.  

Overall, the fact that she was not able to hit Kabutountil he took his eyes off her puts her speed at average level for Part 1 (mediocre level for Shippuden). 



> Part 2 has her being able to strike Madara before A and Onoki's attack could blast him anywhere, meaning that she does have decent speed. She was also able to keep up with Madara clones who were able to grapple the fastest ninja alive in the brief moment he was distracted, indicating that her speed isn't _lacking_. It's just not her forte. This means, conclusively, she'll be able to defend herself with faster opponents. She's not going to be blitzed and ended. If the gap of speed was large enough, that'd be true but it's not happening with Raikage with a single arm.



Ay was flying, she was not using his own movement speed, also, Tsunade jumped up, while Ay had to go all the way around to get behind Madara, that's borderline unimpressive. Keeping up with Susano'O clones is not hard, they don't have any speed whatsoever, and the one who grappled Ay was none other then the original Madara. A missing arm does not change his movement speed.

I will tell you this like I told the others, Sasuke has precognition with Sharingan, Tsunade does not, Sasuke is physically faster then Tsunade as well. Sasuke was helpless before Ay's speed, he got borderline blitzed. What Ay did to Sasuke with V2, Ay will do to Tsunade in V1. She can't compete with Ay. 




> Or who waste their time attacking her at all while regenerating.



Ok.............





> Tsunade's strength, let me state this again, outclasses A. What A used his whole body to do, Tsunade did with a foot and a leg. What A used his whole body to do, Tsunade replicated a similar feat with a _finger_. Madara notes that she's stronger than him, strength wise.



Tsunade strength, does NOT outclass Ay's. their strength is easily within the same ball park, I have proven this time and time again. What Ay did with no momentum, Tsunade did slightly better WITH momentum, they are VERY close in strength. And yes, she is stronger then him strength wise, but not by much. 



> Those medical ninja were not being used. Shizune and Ino were chilling trying to piece together a great mystery. Sakura calmly healed a girl's knee. Tsunade gave up her _stored_ chakra to heal an entire village after Pain demolished it. Katsuyu noted this. The fact that she's able to heal thousands of ninja and prevent fatalities through her summon (who took her chakra, as Tsunade commanded or poured into) speaks volumes of her stamina. She has some of the best stamina feats in the manga.



Of course they where, where else would they go. Also, its hardly an entire village when half of the village was already dead at that point. 



> Not really. There is no argument to decapitation other than it _should_ happen. Hell, Orochimaru was decapitated right in the manga in his fight with Sasuke but reappeared later intact. Tsunade should be able to regenerate her body on the basis that her jutsu has regenerated such things and doesn't need to focus to heal.



Are you seriously saying that Tsunade can survive being decapitated? Do you know what happens when people get decapitated? SHE WILL DIE. No matter who you are, you can be Juudara (Who has way better healing feats then Tsunade), you will still die. Tsunade is by no means an exception. Oro was never decapitated, you should re-read the fight. Tsunade heals on a *cellular* level, re growing a limb is far beyond that. Surviving decapitation is not even possible. 



> Also, I should point that the brain is never emphasized as a required thing to live in this manga. Sasori removed all of his organs instead of his heart. Kakuzu seems to have four hearts, not four brains. Also, souls are a tangible thing in this manga that you cannot survive without.  old thread has more details and explanations.



Dude, you have got to be kidding me. I am not going to argue about wether Tsunade can survive decapitation as it is blatantly obvious she cannot do such a thing. 




> that's not the intention. My intention is to show that Tsunade has no problem at least putting up a fight against speedier opponents. The whole "she gets blitzed immediately and dies" argument is a fallacy. She can eventually get overwhelmed by her opponents speed and the rallies could cause irreparable damage, yes but getting blitzed isn't something that's going to happen.



Saying Ay blitzes her and she looses is not a fallacy, its a fact. If Sasuke got blitzed, Tsunade will on a much easier level.


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> sakura had good strengths prior to the war, but nothing close to her Juubi punch. Then amidst all the rookies pulling out new shit, she pulls out Byakugo and blast the surrounding hundred yards of stone into dust.
> 
> You tell me what Kishi was telling us
> 
> ...



Let me just leave this here btw: 

Seriously? You realize that ninja get fucking better after heard of training. How you gonna sit her and any incarnation of Sakura from before to the one now ? 

No. Her strength didn't get better. She got a Byakago seal for regeneration and used the stored up chakra to mass heal via Katusyu. That's all.

There's clearly a limit to how much chakra you can use in a Justu based on your chakra control. Ay cannot focus all his chakra into one Juubito level shunshin . There is clearly a limit to such, and you seem to think just having more chakra equals stronger punches.

Yet you still don't realize that base Tsuande doesn't have the opportunity to showcase feats like Byakago Tsuande. Base Tsuande basically was only used in part 1. In part 2 as soon as she engaged on the front lines she activated Byakago. You literally have no proof of anything here.

Oh my god. I'm literally done debating here. There is no point at all. Did you seriously sit here and try to pull some realistic bullshit again? Tsunade isn't a human. She supersedes anything a regular Shinobi can do. She was able to blitz Oro with her midsection in pieces which isn't even possible for any regular Shinobi to do. She is able to breath and blitz Kabuto with her intercostal lungs destroyed. She is able to move perfectly fine with her spinal cord snapped. Not only this but Kabuto DIRECTLY SAYS HE TOOK AWAY TSUANDES SUPER STRENTGH HERE: [3]


----------



## Veracity (Jul 20, 2014)

@DM

That doesn't matter at all. You know what you use to block? Your arms. Notice how when Tsuande hit Madara she obliterated his chest and his arm . Not only this but Tsunade didn't even directly hit Madara in his arm. She hit him in the chest and the impact of the punch traveled through the right side of his body and obliterated his arm. If Ay had even remotely the level of strength as Tsunade, he would have atleast injured Madara in the least bit. He didn't even phase him.

Tsuande healed healed herself after she hit Madara. It's not an excuse, it's logic.


----------



## Jad (Jul 20, 2014)

This thread  It's turned into what I thought perhaps it would

Wasn't Kakashi appointed Hokage for a split second by the way?


----------



## OG Appachai (Jul 20, 2014)

Jad said:


> This thread  It's turned into what I thought perhaps it would


only because of the tsunade wankers lol, you should see the post stating that shes on the same level as tobirama.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 20, 2014)

Prime Hiruzen / Hashirama
Minato
Danzo (w/ Izanagi and Koto)
Tobirama
Onoki
Mu
Sandaime Raikage
Gaara
Yagura
Tsunade (depends)
Ei
Sandaime Kazekage
Nidaime Mizukage
Yondaime Kazekage
Mei


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Let me just leave this here btw:


Ok? What is this?



> Seriously? You realize that ninja get fucking better after heard of training. How you gonna sit her and any incarnation of Sakura from before to the one now ?


Dude, if she pulled of the feat in base I would be like ok she trained. But not only was Sakura fodder from her encounter with Sasuke (which happened no less than a couple weeks before the war) , but she wasn't fighting in the war (she was being a good medic) at all. When did she train more? She did most of her training with tsunade over timeskip and got experience from two battles (belltest and sasori match) in which she needed help both times.

Kishi shows her Byakugo (the same thing that allowed Tsunade to blow a hole through madara and self admittedly excalimed only those medics with byakugo can become front line fighters. Sakura shows her and gets the ebst feats of her life? You are fucking quacked mate.



> No. Her strength didn't get better. She got a Byakago seal for regeneration and used the stored up chakra to mass heal via Katusyu. That's all.


I'm gonna make this really simple so even you can comprehend.

Sakura without Seal on her head

As you can she didn't even make it flinch.



 Kishi has her have a dramatic reflection period signaling a power up.

Sakura immediately after gaining the Seal on her head and exclaiming "Now I can release it" (proving my point on more chakra = more strength)


GG LikesBoss




> There's clearly a limit to how much chakra you can use in a Justu based on your chakra control. Ay cannot focus all his chakra into one Juubito level shunshin . There is clearly a limit to such, and you seem to think just having more chakra equals stronger punches.


I clearly showed you sakura claiming that since her seal was filled up she could use it to release more chakra and objectively showed you better strength feats.

I know you hear the whisper of defeat calling you.



> Yet you still don't realize that base Tsuande doesn't have the opportunity to showcase feats like Byakago Tsuande. Base Tsuande basically was only used in part 1. In part 2 as soon as she engaged on the front lines she activated Byakago. You literally have no proof of anything here.


Tsunade would have killed Kabuto, and Madara the first time if that was her consistent strength rebuttal the above before I indulge you any further.


> Oh my god. I'm literally done debating here. There is no point at all. Did you seriously sit here and try to pull some realistic bullshit again? Tsunade isn't a human. She supersedes anything a regular Shinobi can do. She was able to blitz Oro with her midsection in pieces which isn't even possible for any regular Shinobi to do. She is able to breath and blitz Kabuto with her intercostal lungs destroyed. She is able to move perfectly fine with her spinal cord snapped. Not only this but Kabuto DIRECTLY SAYS HE TOOK AWAY TSUANDES SUPER STRENTGH HERE: [3]


I am the one to far indulging you.

Tsunade got a clean fucking hit on him and Kabuto but failed to blow a hole through them, or knock them unconscious. you don't go from hulk to teenage girl from a pt. 1 scalpel.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 20, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Well I was thinking of the feats that he has, or would have, as a perfect Jin but you wish to put blame the statement on misinformation.



I don't necessarily. I'm just saying that it's suspect at best, especially when other characters are being excluded on the basis of not having enough feats to accurately gauge. I mean if we're going to speculate on Yagura why not for the others as well?



> I would think that a crustacean is faster then a slug but that's just me.



I'm pretty sure that most clams move using water currents, and I'm assuming they're not fighting underwater.

Besides, Katsuyu is legendary and the clam is not, so I don't see why they would need to scale evenly from their real-life counterparts anyway.



> Also, when you say melted, I really hope you don't mean by Katsuyu's acid. As for her to seperate into different directions would require her to be multiply into small slugs, and small slugs won't be doing anything to the clam.



The small slugs can do everything the normal slug can. Even if their abilities were to scale down in proportion with their size, that shouldn't be a problem because Tsunade can siphon her Chakra to them remotely in order to amplify the amount of acid they can each spray. And if one slug finds it others, or even Tsunade herself, would be alerted to its position.



> Also, what's stopping Mizukage from killing the Katsuyu's once they come near?



His killing power is too low. Katsuyu in mini-form could beast through Pain's amplified Shinra Tensei and withstand Kn6-Kn8's corrosive Chakra cloak virtually unfazed, and doesn't mind being split into pieces anyway.



> Scratch that, would Katsuyu NOT be under the same Genjutsu that Tsunade is?



Not anymore than Gaara's sand and Ohnoki were. The sense of touch is unaffected by the Genjutsu, so Katsuyu can still find the clam.



> What? Madara guarded that attack perfectly fine.



Check the panel again. The kick's point of impact is beneath where Madara has his arms raised to, and his body was pushed into a crescent as a result of it, which wouldn't have happened were the blow to have struck his arms instead.

The only attack Madara guarded perfectly fine was _Ay's_, so...



> And why can't he hit her and back up?



Speed is irrelevant to punching somebody _while_ moving in the other direction, which is what he'd need to do when Tsunade'd be timing her strike to the very moment Ay connects with her. He'll either hit her and risk the trade or back up at the cost of not striking her himself, which does him no more good than it does her.

He's a glorified wrestler that uses his speed to close-gaps and smash his now cramped opponent with huge strikes that follow through, not someone who annoyingly flits around like Gai and beats on you with repeated blows that individually aren't as heavy. Tsunade can stand her ground better than an _airborne_ Susano'o can, and she's already shown to be able to throw strikes even in that time frame before it was blasted away from Ay's fist, so they trainwreck each other but then she regrows whatever damage got done to her and he doesn't.

She wins.



> Katsuyu flooding the place will hurt Tsunade just as much as it would hurt Ay, so in the end, its all the same.



What do you mean "hurt"?

Tsunade won't be trying to sprint at Ay across Katsuyu, so she wouldn't be getting slowed by it.



> Tsunade will fair no better then Sasuke once Ay goes V2. Hell, she would get blitzed by V1 Ay, as Sasuke was only able to react thanks to Precog Sharingan and his movement speed is superior to that of Tsunade's at that.



Movement speed does not necessarily pertain to reactions. Jūgo and Suigetsu were able to react to V1 Ay, the Sharingan was not the only thing letting Sasuke react.

The Sharingan can only take effect in the first place if Sasuke can already react to something. It's insight stems from reading into slight muscle tensions with extreme clarity, but if those muscle tensions couldn't be registered to begin with it couldn't help anything. V2 Ay could disappear so fast that Sasuke couldn't read into his muscle tensions, so he was out of his element at that point because she Sharingan _no longer mattered_. Tsunade doesn't use a magic eye but she still prioritizes anticipating what attack plan the enemy is going to opt for, relying as much and sometimes more on general intuitiveness and familiarity/experience as pure reflex. She should be able to deal with Ay's suddenly disappearing more effectively than Sasuke could, given that she's a lot more familiar with him than Sasuke is already.



> Woah woah woah there, what's with this scaling? Katsuyu is hardly bigger then Gambunta, maybe just a little, but Katsuyu's weight would be really low, as she is nothing but water and mucus.



Don't even play.

Katsuyu's weight is tremendous enough that it ruptures the earth and causes debris to fly simply by appearing and/or moving around. Mū can't just tank that landing on him.



> Also, you do not expect me to believe that Tsunade will intentionally summon Katsuyu on top of Muu while he is in Muijn Mode as she has no way of knowing when and where he is, there is no possible way she can time that.



Yes. If you can't locate a human sized opponent who fights at a distance your best bet is to bring out what is literally your biggest asset immediately and try to catch it in the AoE. I expect her to do _that_ before she goes running around looking for an invisible man to kick, which requires far more accuracy than dropping a slug in the general area.



> ALSO, when has Tsunade shown the ability to use food cart destryoer? I am pretty sure simply summoning something and foot cart destroyer are different things, as when Tsunade summoned boss sized Katsuyu, she was on top of Katsuyu, not under her, same thing would happen with Muu, unless Tsunade knows that Muu is directly in front of her at that exact time.



She summoned Katsuyu in front of her instead of beneath her during the Invasion of Pain, and when she and Sakura summoned 10% Katsuyu it appeared at a distance out from them as opposed to directly beneath them.

I _was_ assuming that Mū started the match straight in front of her, or at least somewhere near it, by the way, and that his Jutsu wasn't activated before the match even began- as if it was another typical hypothetical encounter in the BD.



> She can't regenerate a decapitated head. That's what Muu would aim for with his Tanto's.



I want to know why she can't, because both she and the data-book say she can recreate all of her organs and parts, which would encompass her head. I better not hear an excuse talking about real-life humans either, because their limits have nothing to do with a Senju/Uzumaki hybrid like Tsunade's.

I also want to know what incentive Mū has to aim for her head to begin with, because he has no knowledge of her.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 21, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> ..



Il let someone else be with you, as I have too many words already. 



> Tsuande healed healed herself after she hit Madara. It's not an excuse, it's logic.



She released the seal after she hit Madara. 



FlamingRain said:


> I don't necessarily. I'm just saying that it's suspect at best, especially when other characters are being excluded on the basis of not having enough feats to accurately gauge. I mean if we're going to speculate on Yagura why not for the others as well?



Such as? What Kages have been left out on the basis of lacking feats? I believe that the only Kages who have been left out are the Kages that literally have no feats to begin with. Yagura was more then likely a perfect Jin, its not speculation it's a fact. What IS speculation is that Obito somehow made Yagura a perfect Jin through Genjutsu and managed to spread the word to the entire world. 




> I'm pretty sure that most clams move using water currents, and I'm assuming they're not fighting underwater.



How on earth would Mizukage find this clam? Let alone its mist abilities? And I am no expert on clams, but I am sure they move in different ways depending on the clam. 



> Besides, Katsuyu is legendary and the clam is not, so I don't see why they would need to scale evenly from their real-life counterparts anyway.



Katsuyu is a slug, and she does not have even the slightest speed feat to prove that she is no ordinary slug when it pertains to speed. 



> The small slugs can do everything the normal slug can. Even if their abilities were to scale down in proportion with their size, that shouldn't be a problem because Tsunade can siphon her Chakra to them remotely in order to amplify the amount of acid they can each spray. And if one slug finds it others, or even Tsunade herself, would be alerted to its position.



Well of course, and that's exactly what I am saying. The super scaled down version's acid won't do any significant damage. Saying Tsunade can siphon he chakra through to Katsuyu, enough to make Katsuyu spray acid a hundread times bigger then her own body is kind of a stretch. 



> His killing power is too low. Katsuyu in mini-form could beast through Pain's amplified Shinra Tensei and withstand Kn6-Kn8's corrosive Chakra cloak virtually unfazed, and doesn't mind being split into pieces anyway.



The explosion, would at the very least, send the little buggers flying back to where they came from. And then they will have to once again, travel as a ridiculously slow pace to get back, only to get knocked away again. Tsunade won't last long enough for a pack of slugs to find where the Kage is. 



> Not anymore than Gaara's sand and Ohnoki were. The sense of touch is unaffected by the Genjutsu, so Katsuyu can still find the clam.



So now it wires down to them actually having to *touch * the clam? Even better. 



> Check the panel again. The kick's point of impact is beneath where Madara has his arms raised to, and his body was pushed into a crescent as a result of it, which wouldn't have happened were the blow to have struck his arms instead.
> 
> The only attack Madara guarded perfectly fine was _Ay's_, so...



I have used it myself recently. The kicks point of impact seems to be more at Madara's legs level, and as that is obviously not the case, we cannot really assume that Madara missed his block. He was in a crescent shape because he made a very abrupt stop mid-air and was sent flying with her kick almost instantly dagger blocking it. Besides, if the hit did hit him in the stomach, it would have done a lot more damage then what it did (Nothing), there would have been at least some regen going on with his armour. 




> Speed is irrelevant to punching somebody _while_ moving in the other direction, which is what he'd need to do when Tsunade'd be timing her strike to the very moment Ay connects with her. He'll either hit her and risk the trade or back up at the cost of not striking her himself, which does him no more good than it does her.



Tsunade won't be timing anything as she won't even know what hit her. She would need to get hit a significant amount of times in order to get the rythem of Ay's movements, but it would be too late by then, heck, it would be too late the second the fight starts, as Ay always goes for the Chop. But lets say he wants to play around with Tsunade (That's totally not his character but for the sake of the arguement), he punches her, she will be sent flying just as Bee was, even KM Naruto was sent flying and he blocked his punch (and he noted that if it connected, he would have been done for, coming from KM Naruto, that's certainly something). Tsunade will be sent flying with no chance to counter attack. 



> He's a glorified wrestler that uses his speed to close-gaps and smash his now cramped opponent with huge strikes that follow through, not someone who annoyingly flits around like Gai .



Tsunade can't stand ground better ground then KM Naruto can though, especially not when she won't be blocking the attack. They won't be evenly matching blows, that's not what happens when asked gap is big enough. Once Ay goes V2, there is no room for debating anymore, Tsunade's head will roll before she can blink. She looses. Though I honestly don't see why Ay would need to go V2. 




> What do you mean "hurt"?
> 
> Tsunade won't be trying to sprint at Ay across Katsuyu, so she wouldn't be getting slowed by it.



That's true. 




> Movement speed does not necessarily pertain to reactions. Jūgo and Suigetsu were able to react to V1 Ay, the Sharingan was not the only thing letting Sasuke react.



Umm ? The best CS2 Jūgo was able to do was put his hand up, and that's Jūgo, someone who actually has better speed feats then Tsunade. Keep in mind that that's only V1 Ay. V2 Ay, Sasuke could not do a thing, and neither will anyone who is a lot slower then him ( Tsunade). 



> The Sharingan can only take effect in the first place if Sasuke can already react to something. It's insight stems from reading into slight muscle tensions with extreme clarity, but if those muscle tensions couldn't be registered to begin with it couldn't help anything. V2 Ay could disappear so fast that Sasuke couldn't read into his muscle tensions, so he was out of his element at that point because she Sharingan _no longer mattered_. Tsunade doesn't use a magic eye but she still prioritizes anticipating what attack plan the enemy is going to opt for, relying as much and sometimes more on general intuitiveness and familiarity/experience as pure reflex. She should be able to deal with Ay's suddenly disappearing more effectively than Sasuke could, given that she's a lot more familiar with him than Sasuke is already.



Tsunade is not reacting to V2 Ay. Her movement speed alone does not compare to that of Sasuke's and the point at which Sasuke's Sharingan becomes useless, is the point at which Tsunade won't even have time to process the thought that Ay had disappeared before her head rolls. Experience is not something that will help her when its her own speed that can't keep up. Sasuke did in fact react to V2 Ay, he was just not fast enough to even turn around, Tsunade will be no different, even if her experience acts as a Sharingan precognition (BS if you ask me) her body movement speed simply won't allow her to even turn around to do anything, she will be in the same position as Sasuke with no Enton Coated Susano'O to bail her out.  





> Don't even play.
> 
> Katsuyu's weight is tremendous enough that it ruptures the earth and causes debris to fly simply by appearing and/or moving around. Mū can't just tank that landing on him.



Is that so? Can you sow me a feat of this? If there is a feat to back up this statement then sure, but as far as I am concerned, Katsuyu is a big mucus pillow. 



> Yes. If you can't locate a human sized opponent who fights at a distance your best bet is to bring out what is literally your biggest asset immediately and try to catch it in the AoE. I expect her to do _that_ before she goes running around looking for an invisible man to kick, which requires far more accuracy than dropping a slug in the general area.



5% of Katsuyu is not big enough to cover the battlefield, Tsunade can't aimlessly summon her atop of Muu and hit him,. The chances that she hits him that way, would probably be like 5%. 





> She summoned Katsuyu in front of her instead of beneath her during the Invasion of Pain, and when she and Sakura summoned 10% Katsuyu it appeared at a distance out from them as opposed to directly beneath them.



Ok



> I _was_ assuming that Mū started the match straight in front of her, or at least somewhere near it, by the way, and that his Jutsu wasn't activated before the match even began- as if it was another typical hypothetical encounter in the BD.



Yes, and he will go Mujin Mode, and if he has any battle sense, he would go behind her or split up and attack her from both sides. 




> I want to know why she can't, because both she and the data-book say she can recreate all of her organs and parts, which would encompass her head. I better not hear an excuse talking about real-life humans either, because their limits have nothing to do with a Senju/Uzumaki hybrid like Tsunade's.
> 
> I also want to know what incentive Mū has to aim for her head to begin with, because he has no knowledge of her.



Oh come on, not you as well. She nor the DB say that, what she DID say is that she can heal on a cellular level, nothing more. I am not here to educate you on decapitation. If you wish to know why she won't survive, search up what happens with decapitation. The Narutoverse limits are set in the Narutoverse, which is why Asuma and his crew where surprised that Hidan was still alive after decapitating him (DESPITE KNOWING HEIS IMMORTAL). So its not like the Narutoverse is any different from the real world when it comes to decapitation. Being a Senju/Uzumaki hybrid is a poor excuse to why she could survive decapitation, as she is below par for someone with such lineage to begin with, not that even the likes of Hashirmaa would survive decap.


----------



## tanman (Jul 21, 2014)

These lists really show how polarized this section is.
One the front page, two people place A at the bottom and two people place Tsunade in the top three. I suppose I have some respect for people *really* committing to their opinions.


----------



## Jad (Jul 21, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Oh come on, not you as well. She nor the DB say that, what she DID say is that she can heal on a cellular level, nothing more. I am not here to educate you on decapitation. If you wish to know why she won't survive, search up what happens with decapitation. The Narutoverse limits are set in the Narutoverse, which is why Asuma and his crew where surprised that Hidan was still alive after decapitating him (DESPITE KNOWING HEIS IMMORTAL). So its not like the Narutoverse is any different from the real world when it comes to decapitation. Being a Senju/Uzumaki hybrid is a poor excuse to why she could survive decapitation, as she is below par for someone with such lineage to begin with, not that even the likes of Hashirmaa would survive decap.



Yagai nearly killed Juubidara. Wander why


----------



## ARGUS (Jul 21, 2014)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. Muu
5. Third Raikage
6. Second Mizukage
7. Onoki
8. A
9. Gaara 
10. Hiruzen
11. Tsunade
12. Third Kazekage
13. Mei
14. Fourth Kazekage


----------



## Empathy (Jul 21, 2014)

Hashirama Senju
Minato Namikaze (Edo)
Hashirama Senju (base)
Minato Namikaze
Tobirama Senju
Danzo Shimura
Muu
Nidaime Mizukage
Onoki
Sandaime Raikage
A
Sabaku no Gaara
Tsunade
Sandaime Kazekage
Yondaime Kazekage
Mei Terumi
Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old)

I omitted Yagura due to ambiguity. I wasn't sure if I should put Danzo higher or lower than the level of Minato and Tobirama. _Kotoamatsukami_ canonically worked on someone with the genjutsu and doujutsu aptitude of Itachi, and Itachi believed it'd work on an Eternal Mangekyou user as well; moreover it requires no eye-contact. I have trouble seeing everyone up until Nagato not being one-shotted by it. However, Tobirama could resist _Edo Tensei's_ control over him, and attributed his subjugation to Hashirama's cells only, so that may help. Also, Danzo was just the Rokudaime Hokage candidate, if I recall correctly.



Dr. White said:


> comparing Bya Tsunade to V1 Ei? She is stronger but that wasn't honest.



The strength of Tsunade's heel:

[_Link_]

The strength of A's full body:

[_Link_]

Also, I fail to see how A's version two _Raiton no Yoroi_ could somehow increase his physical strength. It only seems to increase his speed and cutting power.


----------



## Veo (Jul 21, 2014)

I didn't know where to place Danzo. His izanagi arm is just super cheated. I guess I should put him above Hiruzen in my list. I love the old man, but 10 minutes invincibility is just super dangerous.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 21, 2014)

Hashirama

--Big Gap--

Minato(Edo)
Tobirama
Minato

--Big Gap--

Muu
Trollkage
Onoki
Danzo
Gaara
Sandaime Raikage
Tsunade
Ei
Mei

I  have no idea where to put Yagura or Hiruzen


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I  have no idea where to put Yagura or Hiruzen



How about the bottom ?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 21, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Such as? What Kages have been left out on the basis of lacking feats?



We've evidence pointing to young Hiruzen typically whipping out Kage Bunshins before attacking his enemies IC and some of the potential for that was shown in his Edo Tensei performance. The Third Kazekage was also more feared than any other in Sunagakure, which would include Gaara with a desert of sand behind him.

For some reason both of them are left out, but not Yagura.

Sasuke was able to reach the Nine Tails within Naruto pre-Mangekyō. Obito was able to control Kurama and have it rampage around the Leaf Village firing up Bijūdamas. Isobu is vastly inferior to Kurama, and we saw how much tougher those Tailed Beasts were under Obito's control than on their own in the wild in the war, so it'd be easy to see how Obito could control it and Yagura and make him look like more than he really is.

Danzō also =/= entire world.

The statement is dubious.



> How on earth would Mizukage find this clam? Let alone its mist abilities? And I am no expert on clams, but I am sure they move in different ways depending on the clam.



Why does Mizukage need to find the clam? 

I used the word "most" for a reason.



> Katsuyu is a slug, and she does not have even the slightest speed feat to prove that she is no ordinary slug when it pertains to speed.



Don't harp on feats when the clam hasn't moved an inch in the entire manga.

No ordinary slug would have made it around the village as fast as Katsuyu did, nor would any ordinary slug have managed to shield everyone before a giant ox could take like two steps _(1)_ _(2)_.



> Well of course, and that's exactly what I am saying. The super scaled down version's acid won't do any significant damage. Saying Tsunade can siphon he chakra through to Katsuyu, enough to make Katsuyu spray acid a hundread times bigger then her own body is kind of a stretch.



The acid doesn't need to be a hundred times bigger to kill the clam. If it just gets a hole melted in it it's going to die.



> The explosion, would at the very least, send the little buggers flying back to where they came from. And then they will have to once again, travel as a ridiculously slow pace to get back, only to get knocked away again. Tsunade won't last long enough for a pack of slugs to find where the Kage is.



The explosion? Jōki Bōi? If he's keeping the explosion in the general vicinity of the clam to protect it he's going to hurt the clam itself, which is still very bad for him. Moreover, it's not even likely that he can maintain both of those techniques at once, given that he was extremely weakened and needed to run and hide from everyone for the duration of that Jōki Bōi technique alone.

The slugs are not ridiculously slow, and I've no idea what you mean by "Tsunade won't last long enough" when the Mizukage can't compete with her stamina levels and the only other thing he has is the water pistol. If you think that little water gun is going to finish Tsunade I'm just going to laugh at you.



> So now it wires down to them actually having to *touch * the clam? Even better.



They're still going to be able to do it, so it really doesn't matter.



> The kicks point of impact seems to be more at Madara's legs level, and as that is obviously not the case, we cannot really assume that Madara missed his block. He was in a crescent shape because he made a very abrupt stop mid-air and was sent flying with her kick almost instantly dagger blocking it.



Madara cannot just "stop" in mid air with no footing, he isn't Ohnoki. All he can do is block while he is still moving, and guarding doesn't bend your body that way. Don't get it twisted, Madara didn't "miss" the block, Tsunade just went under it when he put his arms up.

He jumped down at Naruto and Gaara from atop a high Mokuton branch, then got hit in the other direction when Tsunade and Ay appeared, and obviously he was already moving in reverse otherwise he still would have been touching Tsunade. Controlled for that she hit him in his stomach, at most his hip. Either way it's beneath his attempt to block, so the feat still serves the same purpose to my stance.



> Besides, if the hit did hit him in the stomach, it would have done a lot more damage then what it did (Nothing), there would have been at least some regen going on with his armour.



Not if Tsunade's muscles were severed and her strength was negated.



> Tsunade won't be timing anything as she won't even know what hit her.



She'd be timing it to the hit upon his disappearance due to her familiarity with his fighting style already, not timing it after she's been hit.



> She would need to get hit a significant amount of times in order to get the rythem of Ay's movements, but it would be too late by then, heck, it would be too late the second the fight starts, as Ay always goes for the Chop.



Ay's only gone for the chop twice and every other instance has been a punch, don't feed me that crap. Funnily enough his only chops have been against _Susano'o_.

She doesn't need a significant amount of times in order to get the rhythm of Ay's movements because she's already seen the rhythm due to being on the battlefield with him multiple times at this point, but she would have them anyway because Ay can't do any lasting damage to her through Byakugō no Jutsu.



> Tsunade will be sent flying with no chance to counter attack.



I already pointed out that Tsunade can strike something with no leverage whatsoever (Susano'o) faster than it ceases contact with Ay's hand. Tsunade is physically stronger than Susano'o _with no leverage_, _airborne_ KCM Naruto, and base Bee who isn't even in the combat-mindset, and has the Chakra-cling method on top of that. She's not going to go flying as fast as any of them, yet she can throw strikes faster than even they part, so she definitely has enough time to strike back.



> Umm ? The best CS2 Jūgo was able to do was put his hand up, and that's Jūgo, someone who actually has better speed feats then Tsunade.



Umm yes? That's still CS2 kiddy Jūgo reacting to V1 Ay- he blocked upon reacting to Ay's gap closing. Jūgo has no speed feats aside from that, though, let alone ones that make him quicker than Tsunade. 



> Her movement speed



Is irrelevant to my argument.



> Sasuke did in fact react to V2 Ay, he was just not fast enough to even turn around, Tsunade will be no different, even if her experience acts as a Sharingan precognition (BS if you ask me) her body movement speed simply won't allow her to even turn around to do anything, she will be in the same position as Sasuke with no Enton Coated Susano'O to bail her out.



The interactions with Madara's guarding attempts and the airborne Susano'o combo, in addition to Tsunade's vastly superior physical strength to Sasuke and the fact that even Sasuke didn't immediately fly off, suggest the opposite.

Sasuke put up Enton _because_ he wasn't able to react.



> Is that so? Can you sow me a feat of this? If there is a feat to back up this statement then sure, but as far as I am concerned, Katsuyu is a big mucus pillow.



When she first appeared the ground was quaked _(3)_, when she lurched forward against Manda the ground was ruptured further _(4)_. She is heavy as crap.



> 5% of Katsuyu is not big enough to cover the battlefield, Tsunade can't aimlessly summon her atop of Muu and hit him,. The chances that she hits him that way, would probably be like 5%.



It doesn't need to cover the battlefield in order to catch Mū, just a large area, especially since Mū has no knowledge on her- he'll be caught by surprise by the AoE.

And that's just a normal boss sized Katsuyu. A single boss Katsuyu doesn't constitute 5% of Katsuyu if you scale Naruto's Tailed Beast-sized (boss-summon sized) Kurama avatar to the roots of the tree and then scale 10% Katsuyu to those roots.



> Yes, and he will go Mujin Mode, and if he has any battle sense, he would go behind her or split up and attack her from both sides.



So you're telling me Mū's going to turn invisible, then close the distance and finally actually get behind Tsunade before she can so much as bite her thumb and Katsuyu pops out?

Do you think Mū can move fast enough to speed-blitz Tsunade or something?



> She nor the DB say that



Both she _(5)_ and the data-book  say that.



> I am not here to educate you on decapitation. If you wish to know why she won't survive, search up what happens with decapitation.



What happens when somebody is decapitated in real life is that they still live for several seconds before their conscious disappears and their body entirely shuts down. Oddly enough that same constraint applies to bifurcation.



> The Narutoverse limits are set in the Narutoverse, which is why Asuma and his crew where surprised that Hidan was still alive after decapitating him (DESPITE KNOWING HEIS IMMORTAL).



You just supported my stance by misinterpreting it. There are special ninja in the Narutoverse that can deal with their otherwise mandatory bodily structures being destroyed without ceasing function.

So what if Asuma and his crew (a bunch of normals) were shocked? Hidan still survived. Orochimaru can eject new bodies from his person and turn into a conglomerate of snakes, Sasori put his heart in a canister and survives as that, Konan can turn everything head included into paper, Suigetsu can do the same with water, Tobirama got half of his body removed and didn't immediately die, Kushina didn't immediately die from the instant-death Tailed Beast extraction despite having just had a baby, and yet when Tsunade's ultimate medical regeneration Jutsu description twice suggests that she'd also be able to deal with such an injury, she suddenly can't just because.

There is no funny special rule that specifically excludes heads from being brought back, so the burden of proof is upon you to show that _contrary to canon_ Tsunade can't recover from something like decapitation.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2014)

On the issue of Yagura. In the Gokage meeting it's revealed that quite a few people knew that the Yondaime-Mizukage was being controlled by Akatsuki and with a Genjutsu like Shisui's no less. Even despite this he was still called a Perfect-Jinchuuriki like B.  On-top of this he is depicted as the ambassador of the Bijuu/Jin combos when Naruto meets them. So I find it pretty unlikely that Yagura only became a perfect Jin after Obito controlled him.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I  have no idea where to put Yagura or Hiruzen



Yagura must have been strong enough with his own powers to win at tug of war with Sanbi. Adding that on-top of the Sanbi's powers and he should be near the top of the list. Even with just shown feats he's very powerful. His Water-Mirror is a truly broken technique. V2 where he only needs to hit someone to encase them in coral is also tough to deal with, and any Bijuu which is in a controlled form is extremely powerful. TBB alone is very difficult for many to handle and Kishi holding back showing Naruto use Sanbi's power means it's probably going to be quite broken as well.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 21, 2014)

No Gaikage on anyone's list? I am disappointed.


----------



## SSMG (Jul 21, 2014)

Nah man that is downplaying the gaikage.. hes in the demi god tier not in this fodder tier list.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 21, 2014)

Empathy said:


> > The strength of Tsunade's heel:
> >
> > [_Link_]
> >
> ...


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 21, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> We've evidence pointing to young Hiruzen typically whipping out Kage Bunshins before attacking his enemies IC and some of the potential for that was shown in his Edo Tensei performance. The Third Kazekage was also more feared than any other in Sunagakure, which would include Gaara with a desert of sand behind him.
> 
> For some reason both of them are left out, but not Yagura.



Left out? Why do you think I  put Young Hiruzen so high on my list? The only reason I did this was because I factored in his Edo feats, otherwise there would have been no point of making a slot for Young and a slot for Old Hiruzen. As for the Third Kazekage, I put him above Gaara's dad and the likes of Mei, its not like I out him at the bottom one the list. 



> Sasuke was able to reach the Nine Tails within Naruto pre-Mangekyō. Obito was able to control Kurama and have it rampage around the Leaf Village firing up Bijūdamas. Isobu is vastly inferior to Kurama, and we saw how much tougher those Tailed Beasts were under Obito's control than on their own in the wild in the war, so it'd be easy to see how Obito could control it and Yagura and make him look like more than he really is.



The question is WHY would he do it? What purpose would it serve him? He merely controlled Yagura to get to some strong Mist Nin, that is all, Its beyond logic to assume Obito made Yagura have good hype just cause. Like I said, its wishful thinking. 



> Danzō also =/= entire world.



No one objected........




> Why does Mizukage need to find the clam?
> 
> I used the word "most" for a reason.



That's how summons work, you find a summon and make a contract with them. 




> No ordinary slug would have made it around the village as fast as Katsuyu did, nor would any ordinary slug have managed to shield everyone before a giant ox could take like two steps _(1)_ _(2)_.



Fair enough.




> The acid doesn't need to be a hundred times bigger to kill the clam. If it just gets a hole melted in it it's going to die.



No it won't. It took Oonoki breaking the entire clam for it to die. 





> The explosion? Jōki Bōi? If he's keeping the explosion in the general vicinity of the clam to protect it he's going to hurt the clam itself, which is still very bad for him. Moreover, it's not even likely that he can maintain both of those techniques at once, given that he was extremely weakened and needed to run and hide from everyone for the duration of that Jōki Bōi technique alone.



He won't have it explode near the clam silly, he has it explode when Katsuyu gets too close for his liking. Why can't he be weakened when using The Mist. Does it take tremendous amounts of chakra or something? Of course he had to run and hide, what use would it be for him to stay there in plain view where people have the chance to seal him in his weakened state? 



> The slugs are not ridiculously slow, and I've no idea what you mean by "Tsunade won't last long enough" when the Mizukage can't compete with her stamina levels and the only other thing he has is the water pistol. If you think that little water gun is going to finish Tsunade I'm just going to laugh at you.



Jokey Boy will force her to overheal until she runs out of chakra. Summoning 5% of Katsuyu will also take significant amount of chakra. And if Mizukage shoots a barrage of Water Gun at her, it will force her to heal even more. 




> They're still going to be able to do it, so it really doesn't matter.



No hey won't. Mizukage is not dumb enough to let them get too close to the clam. 





> Madara cannot just "stop" in mid air with no footing, he isn't Ohnoki. All he can do is block while he is still moving, and guarding doesn't bend your body that way. Don't get it twisted, Madara didn't "miss" the block, Tsunade just went under it when he put his arms up.



I meant that he quickly puts up his guard as he stops himself from gaining momentum in the air. And yes, if you are hit back with your guard up, your body will be in that position. And once again, she did not go under his block, there was not enough time during that short clash for her to notice that he is putting his guard up and kick below it, furthermore, like I said previously, if she did land a clean hit, he would have been regenerating at least slightly, unless you suggest that he is more durable then Ribcage Susano'O. 



> He jumped down at Naruto and Gaara from atop a high Mokuton branch, then got hit in the other direction when Tsunade and Ay appeared, and obviously he was already moving in reverse otherwise he still would have been touching Tsunade. Controlled for that she hit him in his stomach, at most his hip. Either way it's beneath his attempt to block, so the feat still serves the same purpose to my stance.



Well the feat is moot, as you are misinterpreting what happened. Refer to above for the reasoning. 





> Not if Tsunade's muscles were severed and her strength was negated.



If that was the case, Madara would have not flew back as far as he did. 



> She'd be timing it to the hit upon his disappearance due to her familiarity with his fighting style already, not timing it after she's been hit.



Se lacks the movement speed. 





> Ay's only gone for the chop twice and every other instance has been a punch, don't feed me that crap. Funnily enough his only chops have been against _Susano'o_.



  to  someone else. Furthermore, he has gone for headshots 90% of the time that he has used other methods of attack.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 21, 2014)

> She doesn't need a significant amount of times in order to get the rhythm of Ay's movements because she's already seen the rhythm due to being on the battlefield with him multiple times at this point, but she would have them anyway because Ay can't do any lasting damage to her through Byakugō no Jutsu.



Ok, well Ay has also seen her in battle and knows about her regen, so he would go straight for decapitation. She can't block or take the hit, its GG. 




> I already pointed out that Tsunade can strike something with no leverage whatsoever (Susano'o) faster than it ceases contact with Ay's hand. Tsunade is physically stronger than Susano'o _with no leverage_, _airborne_ KCM Naruto, and base Bee who isn't even in the combat-mindset, and has the Chakra-cling method on top of that. She's not going to go flying as fast as any of them, yet she can throw strikes faster than even they part, so she definitely has enough time to strike back.



No. Ay will hit her, and she will go flying, she won't have time to turn around and hit Ay back, as that would require that her speed rivals that of Ay. 





> Umm yes? That's still CS2 kiddy Jūgo reacting to V1 Ay- he blocked upon reacting to Ay's gap closing. Jūgo has no speed feats aside from that, though, let alone ones that make him quicker than Tsunade.



He was able to dodge a Lariate from a cloaked Bee [1]. That's honestly better then anything average speed feat Tsunade has ever displayed. 





> Is irrelevant to my argument.



That's BS as this is a battle with Ay and she has no auto defence. There is no possible way movement speed can be irrelevant to your argument, 





> The interactions with Madara's guarding attempts and the airborne Susano'o combo, in addition to Tsunade's vastly superior physical strength to Sasuke and the fact that even Sasuke didn't immediately fly off, suggest the opposite.
> 
> Sasuke put up Enton _because_ he wasn't able to react.



Physical strength is irrelevant in a talk of speed. Her interactions with Mdara's guard was misinterpreted by you, the airborn combo she simply punched Susano'O and jumped after her, the fact that Ay while flying, and having to go all the way around behind Susano'O made it to Susano'O at the same time as Tsunade is actually quiet sad. 

Sasuke out up Enton AFTER Ay appeared behind him because he knew he was there, his body just couldn't keep up (Which is pretty obvious when he was facing the complete opposite direction). 





> When she first appeared the ground was quaked _(3)_, when she lurched forward against Manda the ground was ruptured further _(4)_. She is heavy as crap.




Fair enough. 




> It doesn't need to cover the battlefield in order to catch Mū, just a large area, especially since Mū has no knowledge on her- he'll be caught by surprise by the AoE.



If she spawn her directly in front of her, then there will be countless other directions Muu could be in. Your only argument for her beating Muu is this crazy impossibility. Even if she could manage to hit Muu two times out of ten, Muu still wins 8/10, and therefore, is still significantly stronger.  



> And that's just a normal boss sized Katsuyu. A single boss Katsuyu doesn't constitute 5% of Katsuyu if you scale Naruto's Tailed Beast-sized (boss-summon sized) Kurama avatar to the roots of the tree and then scale 10% Katsuyu to those roots.



Tsunade cannot summon 10% of Katsuyu, its obvious that her limit is 5%, as both she and Sakura summoned her together. Its half of what she summoned during the war, which is probably around the size of the one she summoned against Orochimaru. 





> So you're telling me Mū's going to turn invisible, then close the distance and finally actually get behind Tsunade before she can so much as bite her thumb and Katsuyu pops out?
> 
> Do you think Mū can move fast enough to speed-blitz Tsunade or something?



No, he first goes Mujin Mode, then flys up, then goes around her, and attacks her from behind. The odds that Tsunade actually hits Muu the way you suggest, is like 1/10. 



> Both she _(5)_ and the data-book  say that.



Ok..........





> What happens when somebody is decapitated in real life is that they still live for several seconds before their conscious disappears and their body entirely shuts down. Oddly enough that same constraint applies to bifurcation.



More like several milliseconds, they don't live long enough to even blink. 



> You just supported my stance by misinterpreting it. There are special ninja in the Narutoverse that can deal with their otherwise mandatory bodily structures being destroyed without ceasing function.



Yes, and that special Ninja, is an immortal. So its kinda obvious. Other then him, no one would survive. Tsunade is no different, she would loose consciousness and Byakougo with it. 



> So what if Asuma and his crew (a bunch of normals) were shocked? Hidan still survived. Orochimaru can eject new bodies from his person and turn into a conglomerate of snakes, Sasori put his heart in a canister and survives as that, Konan can turn everything head included into paper, Suigetsu can do the same with water, Tobirama got half of his body removed and didn't immediately die, Kushina didn't immediately die from the instant-death Tailed Beast extraction despite having just had a baby, and yet when Tsunade's ultimate medical regeneration Jutsu description twice suggests that she'd also be able to deal with such an injury, she suddenly can't just because.



Tell me then, how would she survive? 



> There is no funny special rule that specifically excludes heads from being brought back, so the burden of proof is upon you to show that _contrary to canon_ Tsunade can't recover from something like decapitation.



Its not my burden of proof to show that Tsunade can survive decapitation, it is yours.


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 21, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> What a null point, she says she was completely fine because she healed herself. Seems like a petty excuse to me.


Tsunaed also claimed she was fine moments before she was falling into a coma, js. 



> Actually its the complete opposite....


If memory recalls me right, Madara comments seemed to indicate Tsunade's strength is far better. 
Tsunade didn't have momentum when she used a single finger to destroy the street. Orochimaru, a teammate and an expert on her strength said a single blow can kill.

and baby Susanno from Sasuke is now equivalent to Susanno from Madara? Get real son  


And nice attempt @ derailing. the kages (in general, including Raikage, Jaggernaught Kage, etc) are my favorite. It doesn't mean anything that I like Tsunade. But nice try. 



> Having a high stat in Taijutsu does not say anything about speed. While Sozo is active, death can still be accomplished, by cutting off her head. Tsunade punched Oro with as much momentum as possible, she literally swung him right into her punch at full force, and Oro was not in a condition any better then hers. He fled because the number of opponents where overwhelming and backup could have surely been on the way.


Death is not as accomplishable here just because it's possible in real life. The head lives on briefly which means she can regenerate from there. Additionally, the brain doesn't even function in Naruto like it does in real life thanks to the invention of the soul. The soul seems to have memory and language function, and also nervous system relations. 

Tsunade was chakra exhausted right after Orochimaru left, suggesting she was using the last of her strength to hit him. Back up wasn't surely on the way. Kabuto informed Orochimaru about the other ninja and they were in isolating on the outskirts of Tanzaku town. 



> She was not exhausted, stop twisting the truth,


Canon says otherwise[1]. 



> and dodging Part 1 Kabuto is something every Jonin level Ninja should be capable of doing, not a good feat.


Shizune couldn't. 




> She struck Kabuto because he got cocky and let his guard down.


For a brief second which she was able to exploit[1]. I'm not sure if there would've been a difference if he was watching Tsunade. Kabuto habitually adjusts his glasses, the pause he took to do so shouldn't have taken too long. 



> There was no speed involved with the giant sword, how can speed en be involved when she was in the air and can to fly? That's not even a speed feat to begin with


Because Tsunade had to use her reflexes and dexterity to guide a giant sword through Manda's mouth before he could snap his jaws shut? Unless you think Tsunade can plant a sword down through gravity before a giant snake can swallow toad and Jiraiya whole. 




> Oro was also cocky and thought she was down for the count.


That shouldn't change anything. Orochimaru's prime motivations was avoiding Tsunade's blows and attacks. That's why they waited until she was tired out to combat her. Why would this change when he sees Tsunade, who he has noticed to stop trembling, getting up off the ground?[1]. You think he's so cocky he's going to let Tsunade hit him in the face as a reward for getting over her fear of blood? 

Even if your argument is true (which it isn't), let's run with it. Orochimaru is an expert of the human body and we can assume that he knows when people are close to death and/or totally unable to fight because of their condition. What makes you think all of these kage, which are significantly less knowledge on the human body than Orochimaru, aren't going to make this same mistake? If this is the case, while they're assuming Tsunade is dead/dying/close to death, she can easily just hit them and debilitate them.  



> Overall, the fact that she was not able to hit Kabutountil he took his eyes off her puts her speed at average level for Part 1 (mediocre level for Shippuden).


An exhausted, rusty Tsunade was able to parry a blow[3] and counterattack before Kabuto could even retreat. Approaching Tsunade isn't a good idea, especially because most of the opponents here can't disable her strength. Any other opponent would probably be coughing out their teeth. 




> Ay was flying, she was not using his own movement speed, also, Tsunade jumped up, while Ay had to go all the way around to get behind Madara, that's borderline unimpressive.


Do you think Susanno is so wide that an additional .01 seconds of Shushin can't handle it? 

Ay's own movement speed was boosted with the effect of being lightened, making him faster. Kabuto was able to recall the technique because there was a surprise attack against Deidara (a legitimate blitz) that was similar. 



> Keeping up with Susano'O clones is not hard, they don't have any speed whatsoever, and the one who grappled Ay was none other then the original Madara. A missing arm does not change his movement speed.


The original Madara was not the one who grappled A. I don't know where you're getting that  
It was a clone that grappled A, the manga made it clear. Even then, clones retain the speed of the people who summoned them. They aren't magically slower just because they're clones. 

A missing arm means his attacks are even more easily predicted, which is Tsunade's style of fighting. 



> I will tell you this like I told the others, Sasuke has precognition with Sharingan, Tsunade does not, Sasuke is physically faster then Tsunade as well. Sasuke was helpless before Ay's speed, he got borderline blitzed. What Ay did to Sasuke with V2, Ay will do to Tsunade in V1. She can't compete with Ay.


I agree with this, at least. But I'm not stating that it's going to result in her death. She'll be able to combat him physically. 



> Tsunade strength, does NOT outclass Ay's. their strength is easily within the same ball park, I have proven this time and time again. What Ay did with no momentum, Tsunade did slightly better WITH momentum, they are VERY close in strength. And yes, she is stronger then him strength wise, but not by much.


A can attack strength wise and get to the outfield, but Tsunade hits the home run if we're going with a ball park analogy. What A did with his entire body and without momentum, Tsunade replicated with a finger. Again, A has never had the hype or feats in terms of strength that Tsunade has. 

Tsunade was able to carry a skyscraper sized knife like it was nothing and attack a large summon with it. A has never done anything close to that. Orochimaru has stated a single blow from Tsunade can kill. A's blows have not killed anything, but they have damaged people. 




> Of course they where, where else would they go. Also, its hardly an entire village when half of the village was already dead at that point.


Half of the village wasn't dead at that point, lmao. Nice try though. Even then, Konoha contributed around 16,000 people to the army canonly. Tsunade was able to heal and protect thousands of people, and healing one person was stated to take up considerable chakra. She has a second set of chakra, too, and I'm not even factoring in that. 



> Are you seriously saying that Tsunade can survive being decapitated? Do you know what happens when people get decapitated? SHE WILL DIE


Sasori can survive without a brain and there's nothing to indicate that he was any different from Tsunade when he first started. Again, you're using real human anatomy logistics when the soul exists and has overtaken some functions in the brain. As long as Tsunade's soul doesn't jump out when she dies (and since Jiraiya was able to will himself back to life, there's support for this argument), she'll be able to regenerate. I mean, if Kakuzu was decapitated, he'd obviously live despite the fact that the similar argument would supply. 

Decapitation is not a surefire way to kill someone in this manga. We've already violated the idea of the human body about a thousand times over. There are people with _eyes embedded in their arms_. We've already passed the "nonrealistic" arguments when it comes to the human body.




> No matter who you are, you can be Juudara (Who has way better healing feats then Tsunade), you will still die. Tsunade is by no means an exception. Oro was never decapitated, you should re-read the fight. Tsunade heals on a *cellular* level, re growing a limb is far beyond that. Surviving decapitation is not even possible.


Why can't she regrow limbs? She's already regrown everything that constitutes as a limb. She's regrown bone, muscle, skin, nerves, etc. In fact, the databook states that regrowing limbs and organs are possible, if I'm remembering correctly. Even then, if Tsunade can regenerate everything that is a limb, that means that she can technically regenerate a limb. 



> Dude, you have got to be kidding me. I am not going to argue about wether Tsunade can survive decapitation as it is blatantly obvious she cannot do such a thing.


You've yet to supply an argument that relies on how the human body works in reality. This is fiction. We've already violated how the human body works as early as the fact that you lose your soul, it results in automatic death. Reread the thread I linked you, it might provide some desperately needed knowledge. Or, at least come up with a better argument than people die when they are killed. 



> Saying Ay blitzes her and she looses is not a fallacy, its a fact. If Sasuke got blitzed, Tsunade will on a much easier level.


Regeneration, physical durability (She can survive her own impacts, so she's certainly surviving the A's), Katsuyu, etc. all seems to indicate that she will live beyond the initial blitz and might even counterattack.



Destiny Monarch said:


> Ok, well Ay has also....


Madara, who is a smarter ninja than A, by both feats and other character's statements about the A's knew about her regeneration and yet only chopped her in half.  If Madara, who knew she can regenerate, didn't aim for decapitation, I highly doubt the A will. And this is a man who really wanted Tsunade's death.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 21, 2014)

I condensed some of your points because of too much words. 



Butterfly said:


> Tsunaed also claimed she was fine moments before she was falling into a coma, js.



Refuting Canon I see. 




> If memory recalls me right, Madara comments seemed to indicate Tsunade's strength is far better.
> Tsunade didn't have momentum when she used a single finger to destroy the street. Orochimaru, a teammate and an expert on her strength said a single blow can kill.



Your memory does not recall you right, all he said was "........but she's stronger" and that in no way implies that her strength is far stronger then Ay's, and we have feats to prove it. 



> and baby Susanno from Sasuke is now equivalent to Susanno from Madara? Get real son



Baby Susano'O? They where both Ribcage Susano'O. But if it makes you feel better, Ay has cracked Madara's Ribcage Susano'O on two different occasions as well. 




> And nice attempt @ derailing. the kages (in general, including Raikage, Jaggernaught Kage, etc) are my favorite. It doesn't mean anything that I like Tsunade. But nice try.


 
That's BS. You said that you found it hard to believe and you like her, this seems like a poor excuse to cover your bias up. 



> Death is not as accomplishable here just because it's possible in real life. The head lives on briefly which means she can regenerate from there. Additionally, the brain doesn't even function in Naruto like it does in real life thanks to the invention of the soul. The soul seems to have memory and language function, and also nervous system relations.



The head lives on for miliseconds. What can she regenerate? Her entire body? LOL. Her head becomes unconscious almost instantly after decapitation and her seal goes away. Asuma and his few where surprised when they decapitated Hidan and he was still alive, that signifies that it IS the same. 



> Tsunade was chakra exhausted right after Orochimaru left, suggesting she was using the last of her strength to hit him. Back up wasn't surely on the way. Kabuto informed Orochimaru about the other ninja and they were in isolating on the outskirts of Tanzaku town.



Ok that works as well, she used the last of her strength to try and hurt Orochimaru. And it does not matter where they are, back-up will be on the way if they hear that the Sannin are having a brawl. 




> Canon says otherwise[1].



She was exhausted because she couldn't hit Part 1 Kabuto  Now that's funny. 



> Shizune couldn't.



Shizune is a fodder, based on feats, she wouldn't even be able to tussle with a sound four member. 




> For a brief second which she was able to exploit[1]. I'm not sure if there would've been a difference if he was watching Tsunade. Kabuto habitually adjusts his glasses, the pause he took to do so shouldn't have taken too long.



Obviously there would have been a difference if he was watching her, other wise she would not have needed to exploit the guard drop of Kabuto's. 




> Because Tsunade had to use her reflexes and dexterity to guide a giant sword through Manda's mouth before he could snap his jaws shut? Unless you think Tsunade can plant a sword down through gravity before a giant snake can swallow toad and Jiraiya whole.



No, reflexes played no part in it. She jumped and lucky for Gambunta, landed on Manda's face. That's all there is to it. There is no possible timing or speed involved when she can't fly. 





> That shouldn't change anything. Orochimaru's prime motivations was avoiding Tsunade's blows and attacks. That's why they waited until she was tired out to combat her. Why would this change when he sees Tsunade, who he has noticed to stop trembling, getting up off the ground?[1]. You think he's so cocky he's going to let Tsunade hit him in the face as a reward for getting over her fear of blood?



He was baffled that she got oer her fear of blood. He was too cocky thinking that she would never accomplish such a feat. 



> Even if your argument is true (which it isn't), let's run with it. Orochimaru is an expert of the human body and we can assume that he knows when people are close to death and/or totally unable to fight because of their condition. What makes you think all of these kage, which are significantly less knowledge on the human body than Orochimaru, aren't going to make this same mistake? If this is the case, while they're assuming Tsunade is dead/dying/close to death, she can easily just hit them and debilitate them.



Terrible assumption. He is not a medical Ninja like Tsunade to pick up on those kinds of things, he may know a humans atonomy well from countless experiments but that's about it. 




> An exhausted, rusty Tsunade was able to parry a blow[3] and counterattack before Kabuto could even retreat. Approaching Tsunade isn't a good idea, especially because most of the opponents here can't disable her strength. Any other opponent would probably be coughing out their teeth.




Part 1 Kabuto is weak, that's all there is to it. The fact that Tsunade struggled with him is a terrible feat. 




> Do you think Susanno is so wide that an additional .01 seconds of Shushin can't handle it?



Yes and have Madara notice him right? He had to go all the way around to get behind Madara, which is further displayed by how far away he is when coming in. 



> Ay's own movement speed was boosted with the effect of being lightened, making him faster. Kabuto was able to recall the technique because there was a surprise attack against Deidara (a legitimate blitz) that was similar.



Ay was not using his own movement speed, he was flying, it was Oonoki's flight speed while carrying Ay. Kabuto and Deidara have nothing to do with the feat, what are you talking about. 




> The original Madara was not the one who grappled A. I don't know where you're getting that
> It was a clone that grappled A, the manga made it clear. Even then, clones retain the speed of the people who summoned them. They aren't magically slower just because they're clones.



 it was the original Madara, the clones where in the V3 Susano'O's while Madara was in V1 Susano'O. 



> A missing arm means his attacks are even more easily predicted, which is Tsunade's style of fighting.



Ay does not use the same type of Taijutsu as Gai. He hiardly uses skill, its a blitz + Chop/Elbow = Death. 




> I agree with this, at least. But I'm not stating that it's going to result in her death. She'll be able to combat him physically.



If he chops her then it will result in her death, and he will chop her, or take her head off with his elbow at the very least. And even if she did survive the decapitation (Which she can't), there will be nothing she can do without a body. And Ay would come up to her head and step on it until it pops. 




> A can attack strength wise and get to the outfield, but Tsunade hits the home run if we're going with a ball park analogy. What A did with his entire body and without momentum, Tsunade replicated with a finger. Again, A has never had the hype or feats in terms of strength that Tsunade has.



lol what? She made a couple cracks in the pavement, how is that comparable to Ay's crater. Something more comparable to it would be Tsunade's heel kick with momentum. 



> Tsunade was able to carry a skyscraper sized knife like it was nothing and attack a large summon with it. A has never done anything close to that. Orochimaru has stated a single blow from Tsunade can kill. A's blows have not killed anything, but they have damaged people.



I've seen better strength feats then that by Kisame, let alone Ay. I could use the same logic on you, has Tsunade's blows ever killed anyone? The most I could remember is damaging a Mokuton Bunshin. 





> Half of the village wasn't dead at that point, lmao. Nice try though. Even then, Konoha contributed around 16,000 people to the army canonly. Tsunade was able to heal and protect thousands of people, and healing one person was stated to take up considerable chakra. She has a second set of chakra, too, and I'm not even factoring in that.



And what makes you think 16, 000 Ninja where present during the invasion. D you erosion believe that the Paths took on 16, 000 Shinobi? Not likely, 80% of those Shinobi where probably out doing missions (Like Gai and his team), and surely, Pein had killed at least a thousand people, given all the destroyed houses, and the amount of people shown to be resurrected by Rin Tensei. 




> Sasori can survive without a brain and there's nothing to indicate that he was any different from Tsunade when he first started. Again, you're using real human anatomy logistics when the soul exists and has overtaken some functions in the brain. As long as Tsunade's soul doesn't jump out when she dies (and since Jiraiya was able to will himself back to life, there's support for this argument), she'll be able to regenerate. I mean, if Kakuzu was decapitated, he'd obviously live despite the fact that the similar argument would supply.



Sasori still has brain, his heart likely acts as his brain, otherwise he wouldn't be capable of thinking. Jiraiya was not decapitated, that's the difference. And no, Kakuzu would not live if he was decapitated. 



> Decapitation is not a surefire way to kill someone in this manga.



It is unless your Hidan. 




> Why can't she regrow limbs?.



She hasn't regrown anything of the sort. The most damage we have seen done to her was two blades through her stomach. She needed Katsuyu to re-attach her bottom half, it would be no different with an arm or leg. 




> You've yet to supply an argument that relies on how the human body works in reality



People die, when they are decapitated. 




> Regeneration, physical durability.......



Yes because she has hit herself before right? LOL. She is surviving Ay's hits but not because of her durability as she does not have any, its because of her endurance. But she will die once Ay gets serious. 




> Madara, who is a smarter ninja than A, by both feats and other character's statements about the A's knew about her regeneration and yet only chopped her in half..



Me and you know both know that was PIS and plot armour, pleas don't bring up such a moot example.


----------



## αce (Jul 21, 2014)

Unless you have some sort of special bloodline abilities or a space time technique, your strength can be measured by how large your nuking ability is. Hiruzen is massively overrated here and shouldn't even be in the same category as Hashirama.

Unless you really believe some retconned character is going to be stronger than Ashura's retconned reincarnation. The moment Kishimoto decided to make Hashirama related to the sage in more than just blood was the moment he was the strongest Kage.


----------



## StickaStick (Jul 21, 2014)

αce said:


> Unless you have some sort of special bloodline abilities or a space time technique, your strength can be measured by how large your nuking ability is. Hiruzen is massively overrated here and shouldn't even be in the same category as Hashirama.
> 
> Unless you really believe some retconned character is going to be stronger than Ashura's retconned reincarnation. The moment Kishimoto decided to make Hashirama related to the sage in more than just blood was the moment he was the strongest Kage.





oh shit


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 21, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Refuting Canon I see.


She ran off to face pain after giving up her chakra to the village. Tsunade thinks she'll be all right all the time, even if she actually isn't. 




> Your memory does not recall you righ....


My bad, I'll concede my memory was wrong. 



> Baby Susano'O.....


And Tsunade busted it opened 



> The head lives on for miliseconds......


It is the same for average ninja, but Tsunade isn't the average ninja when she has regenerative abilities. The proteins being stimulated and the fact that she can seemingly hang in there while chopping in half seems to indicate something else. 



> Ok that works as well.....


Orochimaru didn't need to worry for back up when they were in an isolated location far off a town that takes days to travel to. Hell, he could call for back up himself and they would get there around the same time Konoha ninja would. 



> She was exhausted.....


 Other way around. Read what I linked you. Orochimaru and Kabuto planned to tire her out before fighting her. 



> Obviously.....


Kabuto habitually adjusts his glasses. It shouldn't take him more than a second. The fact that, even with hampered movement, she was able to land a surprise attack indicates that she certainly wasn't slow. 



> No, reflexes played no part in it. ....


Tsunade got _lucky_? Wait, let me make sure I have this right. *Tsunade got lucky*? The legendary sitting duck who has canonly _awful_ luck, in fact, no one on the planet has worse luck than her except maybe Sasuke, is suddenly able to hit someone because of luck? That's utter rubbish. 

She had to flip the knife over and guide it into his mouth with her upper body strength. She couldn't rely on gravity. a falling object isn't going to land (especially with the force needed to take him out) in the milliseconds it'll take for Manda to close his mouth. 



> He was baffled......


So he let her hit his face? Orochimaru was watching Tsunade carefully enough to know when she stopped trembling. There's no way he's going to be dumb enough to take a hit just because he was cocky. He was watching her, and she was still able to land an attack. Not to mention, I doubt Orochimaru would be ~cocky~ long enough for Tsunade to make such an attack if she wasn't quick with it. 




> Terrible assumption......


Countless experiments? Orochimaru is a man obsessed with immortality. In fact, he's performed countless experiments on many people and was able to tell when test subjects were no longer viable or close to death. He should recognize the signs of death. In fact, that combined with his combat experience (which is in the upper 95% of the cast, I'd reckon) would certainly make him keen to assess other people's injuries and notice when they're close to death. We see this with him, Karin and Tsunade. 



> Part 1 Kabuto is weak, that's all there is to it.....


Kabuto and Orochimaru preplanned Tsunade's rebellion. They purposefully tired her out and had her chase them out of town, through a forest and across a battlefield before engaging her. Kabuto took soldier pills to cure his exhaustion, while Tsunade, who has not fought in years and is rusty, took himm on. Even then, every hit he gave her she returned without much trouble and she was able to shrug off most attacks to the point where Kabuto realized the only way to subdue her was to use a fear that she no longer has. Even then, Kabuto outright admitted inferiority to a rusty Tsunade despite the fact that he stacked the deck in his favor in nearly every possible advantage he could find. Despite this, Tsunade was depicted to be the superior combatant. 

Part 1 Kabuto had the strength of Part 1 Kakashi, according to other characters' assessments. He was at least mid-high out of all that appeared in Part 1. 



> Yes and have Madara notice him right.....


Yes, but I'm stating that she had the speed to keep up with a lightened A/Onoki in terms of combat. She's certainly not slow by any means and she has the speed to make sure she's not blatantly overwhelmed by opponents. 



> Ay was not using his own movement  .....


Onoki's flight speed was enough to catch Deidara and Kabuto off guard. That's why Kabuto remembered the technique Onoki was about to use and it was he was so surprised when A's attack actually connected. 



> ....


It wasn't. If you go back and reread the chapter (588) you'll see that it's Madara's clone. The real Madara standing back on a pillar watching the Kage struggle like a boss. Besides, what reason would he have to enter the fray when the whole point was to taunt him with the strength of his clones with 5 vs. 1?  



> If he chops her then it will result in her death.....


Doesn't he need force in the opposite direction (as in B) to actually behead an opponent though? She took Susanno's strongest long range attack to the face, she's very physically durable. 

Ay wouldn't step on her head either. He'd probably (and rightfully) assume that she's dead. 



> lol what.......


She created a deep fissure large enough to entrap Naruto . The fissure she made was just as deep as A's crater, if not more so, and it was extended farther than A's crater and this was just with a single finger. 



> I've seen better strength feats then that by Kisame.....


She's only had two fights in the manga. A single punch knocked Orochimaru out and sent him running in fear of another blow. Keep in mind, Orochimaru has accomplished Tsunade on tons of missions before. He knows that a punch is lethal. Madara is an Edo Tensei. Physical strength isn't going to do much seeing that he can regenerate any damage, but, even then, her punch created a gaping hole in his side (Madara appeared to switch before he was sealed). 



> And what makes you think 16, 000 Ninja where present during the invasion.....


80% is a very generous estimate. Out of the Konoha 11 + Sai, 5 of those 12 were out on a mission. If we times 7/12 out of 16,000, we get somewhere around 9,000. And this isn't including all of the filler crowd civilians we see in Konoha. This is army contributions alone. If we even assume that Pain killed 1,000 Shinobi, that still leaves thousands of Shinobi Tsunade had to heal and protect. It's clear that canon has portrayed her as a chakra beast. 16K comes from the fact that it must be Konoha's contribution to the alliance army (which had 100K soldiers)



> Sasori still has brain.....


Sasori does not have a brain, yet he is still capable of thinking. The soul takes over some of the brains functions in this manga (as I've stated earlier). Konan can turn herself entirely into paper and I can tell you that paper doesn't quite have a brain either. Hell, we've seen Sasori smashed to pieces but only his heart is the organic thing about him.

If Kakuzu would die because of decapitation, how come no one ever attempts to argue this in the BD Forms? Canon has made it super clear that you have to kill the four masks and that's what each of the characters did. No one tried to loophole it, and there was no indication that it could be loopholed. Even by Shikamaru, the most astute character in the series. 



> It is unless your Hidan


Or if you can regenerate. Honestly, I wouldn't include just Tsunade in this either. I think under some circumstances, Kisame could regenerate his head with Samehada. 



> She hasn't regrown anything of the sort....


She's regrown bone when Orochimaru pierced her rib cage or when Madara sent a sword through her spine. She's regrown muscle from Kabuto's attacks. Hell, Shosen jutsu cured Shikamaru of a broken leg, and her healing jutsu is said to surpass all of this. She needed Katsuyu to reattach her bottom half because she didn't have the chakra to regenerate and, even then, she can't regenerate if she's pinned under a heavy tree because there's simply no room to do so. 

Additionally, the databook says she can regenerate all organs and parts. Parts is a synonym for limb. 



> Yes...


Do you not know how physics works? If Tsunade was unable to withstand her own impacts, her hand would probably shatter each time she attacks. When you exert force on an object, the object exerts equal force onto you. It's why your hand might hurt when you punch a wall. 



> Me and you know both know that was PIS and plot armour, pleas don't bring up such a moot example.


You call it what you want but plot armor isn't an argument since the whole manga is plot (if it's actually good plot is debatable). I can easily state Madara's clone or Orochimaru's survival at a first punch is plot armor, but, instead, I really can't because the parameters the manga gave me are what I have to work with.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 21, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Why do you think I  put Young Hiruzen so high on my list?



Bro, I was talking about someone else's list; yours has nothing to do with it.



> The question is WHY?



Who knows. Maybe a more frightening reputation was beneficial to forwarding whatever plans made him a tyrannical leader even by Kirigakure's bloody mist era standards, in deterring treachery and revolt for fear of the ramifications, etc. I could think of a plethora of what-if scenarios and reasonings, but they still aren't relevant to the potential for Obito having been responsible for Yagura's hype.



> Like I said, its wishful thinking.



This is painfully hypocritical of you, but it's a good thing I'm not expressly claiming that it definitely was Obito's doing as opposed to Yagura's and only that there's a very real possibility that it was.



> No one objected



So you consider that sufficient evidence? Well in that case no one has objected to Tsunade's claim that she can rebuild _*all*_ of her organs and parts.



> That's how summons work, you find a summon and make a contract with them.



Oh that. Kirigakure is not short on large bodies of water.



> It took Oonoki breaking the entire clam for it to die.



That's the only injury we've seen it sustain, though. Just because Ohnoki broke the entire clam doesn't mean that's the bare minimum required for it to be killed.



> He has it explode when Katsuyu gets too close for his liking.



When which Katsuyu's get too close for his liking? Bear in mind that she can be coming from more than one direction at once given her plurality, and the explosion is something she can endure without issue. The only way to reliably repel them from each potential direction they may be coming from is to be near enough to the clam that'd it'd be caught up in the AoE of the blast itself.

Otherwise they're going to reach it at some point and that will be the end of that, though they probably could anyway because the gap between each of the explosions isn't exactly small.



> Why can't he be weakened when using The Mist. Does it take tremendous amounts of chakra or something?



If they had any real chance to seal him it'd mean that he was too weak to replicate his feat of casually rolling through their squads with Taijutsu (because he could still oil out of Gaara's sand), something I'd expect to be less taxing than performing a battlefield-wide Genjutsu haze.



> Jokey Boy will force her to overheal until she runs out of chakra. And if Mizukage shoots a barrage of Water Gun at her, it will force her to heal even more.



And based on what should the Mizukage be able to keep that up longer than the village-sustaining Hokage can keep up her healing?



> I meant that he quickly puts up his guard as he stops himself from gaining momentum in the air. And yes, if you are hit back with your guard up, your body will be in that position. And once again, she did not go under his block, there was not enough time during that short clash for her to notice that he is putting his guard up and kick below it, furthermore, like I said previously, if she did land a clean hit, he would have been regenerating at least slightly, unless you suggest that he is more durable then Ribcage Susano'O.



Firstly, if you think that an object striking somebody's raised arms will fold them over at the waist you have no understanding of human body dynamics. Were he bent as a result of being hit in his elevated guard, his waist would have folded the other way like he was playing limbo; if she had hit him in his stomach and/or hip, however, well.....it'd look like the panel we have, so that's what I'm going to go with.

Secondly, trying to disregard the feat "because there wasn't enough time" irregardless of the fact that her foot is clearly beneath his arms sounds an awful lot like you allowing your pre-suppositional stance on Tsunade to skew your vision to me, because in no way does that do anything to falsify my explanation rooted in the panel's very illustration for the opposite claim that she _did_ notice his guard and kick below it.

Lastly, blocking only diverts damage to your arms, it doesn't outright erase it. If you're going to claim his armor should have been regenerating then his arms should have been regenerating as well, but they weren't. The absence of regeneration can be explained by Tsunade's rectus femoris muscles having been severed by _Tensō no Jutsu_, but not by Madara's block having been successful. 



> If that was the case, Madara would have not flew back as far as he did.



I don't see why not, given that even with her muscles severed she slapped Kabuto hard enough to crack into the ground.



> Se lacks the movement speed.



Movement speed is inconsequential to the scenario I'm proposing. Ay's speed plays the role of getting him into melee-range for his gigantic-strength-focused swings and grabs, the follow-throughs of which elongate his time in forced close-proximity.



> Tell that to someone else.



Okay, _one_ chop was against a bull horn instead of Susano'o bones. He's still primarily opted for punches throughout his fights with Taka, Kisame, Naruto/Bee, and Madara/Mū.



> Ay has also seen her in battle and knows about her regen.



Ay apparently doesn't even think she can die until her stamina runs out, so it doesn't matter.



> Ay will hit her, and she will go flying, she won't have time to turn around and hit Ay back, as that would require that her speed rivals that of Ay.



I'm going to try explaining one more time why it doesn't require speed that rivals Ay's own:

Whether or not and how quickly Tsunade gets blasted away is not a question of anyone's speed but of resistance to being moved by opposing force, which is determined by the amount of adjacent/opposite force the person in question can exert themselves. Susano'o and Naruto were in the air when they were struck, and had no platform to grip, resultantly going flying much easier. But Tsunade is physically stronger than Ay and has the Chakra-cling method to add on top of it, so if she digs her heels in she'll delay the moment of separation between herself and Ay's offending limb and increasing the time-frame during which Ay is within reach much more than Naruto or Susano'o did. Considering that she was able to execute a kick before even the airborne Susano'o parted with Ay's hand, she, with much more resistance to change, has an ideal shot at being able to strike back before she gets sent anywhere by the impact. So they trade blows and she wins.

She is _not_ playing tag with the Raikage, she is using her ability to dig her heels in and strike even while being injured to take advantage of his mandate to conveniently bring himself into close-quarters in order to do any damage to her for himself.



> He was able to dodge a Lariate from a cloaked Bee.



Evading a human sized body being carried primarily by the force of his swing (he was, because he changed direction after missing Sasuke, and he can't fly) from that large of a distance isn't superior to anything Tsunade has done.



> The airborn combo she simply punched Susano'O and jumped after her, the fact that Ay while flying, and having to go all the way around behind Susano'O made it to Susano'O at the same time as Tsunade is actually quiet sad.



Re-read that sequence.

Tsunade punched Madara and then Mei traded elementals with him in front of Tsunade. We saw Ohnoki and Ay closing in the moment he came out of the water dragon, and we can determine that Tsunade hadn't moved yet because she's not visible anywhere on panel (if she were inside the water dragon having chased after Madara she'd have still been visible because Madara was visible, but she's nowhere to be seen). That means that she was significantly further away and still managed to catch up to Ay/Ohnoki fast enough to combo it up with them, which makes her look pretty good, not sad.



> Sasuke out up Enton AFTER Ay appeared behind him because he knew he was there.



It was explicitly stated that Sasuke put up the Enton because he couldn't track Raikage; that it happened after Ay reappeared is coincidental.



> If she spawn her directly in front of her, then there will be countless other directions Muu could be in.



That's only if Mū can clear Katsuyu's breadth faster than Tsunade can perform a Kuchiyose. I don't think he's fast enough to do that. If you want to talk crazy impossibilities you ought to recite your post in the mirror.



> Tsunade cannot summon 10% of Katsuyu.



I never claimed that; I said a single boss doesn't constitute _5%_ of Katsuyu. I only used 10% Katsuyu to put that into perspective because half of 10% Katsuyu is still significantly larger than Naruto's Kurama avatar, which itself is roughly the size of a boss summon.



> No, he first goes Mujin Mode, then flys up, then goes around her.



What do you mean "no" if you're going to go on to claim something like that?

Flying up and going around her requires that he crosses a larger distance than what would be required to close the gap, and after invoking his invisibility Jutsu first. If he doesn't want to get jammed and squished by Katsuyu appearing, he'd have to do all of that faster than Tsunade can manage to bite her thumb and pop Katsuyu.



> More like several milliseconds.



Findings in rats, which can be extrapolated to humans, suggest that consciousness lasts for several seconds, while numerous eyewitness accounts of and experiments with human decapitations report consciousness remaining for at least iirc 10-13 seconds, and it's only in additional seconds after that that function ceases and death occurs.

That's concerning normal, real life people. If anything a freak of nature even among superhuman ninja like Tsunade could be expected to survive significantly longer before she shuts down.



> Other then him, no one would survive.



I just gave you a multiplicity of examples of ninja surviving with deconstructed or missing brains among other things. So there's already a precedent of consistency for the claim that the ultimate regeneration Jutsu can include a head.



> Tell me then, how would she survive?



By regenerating.



> Its not my burden of proof to show that Tsunade can survive decapitation.



It _is_ your burden of proof because the claim that she cannot contradicts canon testimonials (i.e. manga evidence for the manga character), as opposed to remaining consistent with them. It isn't like Tsunade'd be the first or last person established to be able to survive decapitation either.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 21, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> She ran off to face pain after giving up her chakra to the village. Tsunade thinks she'll be all right all the time, even if she actually isn't.



Its not a matter of wether she thinks she will be alright, she WAS alright, as she even undid the seal. 





> And Tsunade busted it opened



Only thanks to the gangbang with Ay. 




> It is the same for average.



You have yet to prove otherwise. Like I said earlier, being chopped in half =/= decapitated. 




> Other way around. Read what I linked you. Orochimaru and Kabuto planned to tire her out before fighting her.



It does not change the fact that she was tired because she couldn't hit Kabuto. 




> Kabuto habitually adjusts his glasses.



He still keeps his eye on the target when he adjusts his glasses, he turned away from her, which is the only reason she got the drop on him. 



> Tsunade got _lucky_? .



As she said herself, her bad luck does not play any part in real life, there is no denying she was lucky that Manda was at that place at that exact time she reached them. 



> She had to flip the knife over and guide it into his mouth with her upper body strength..



That's true.



> So he let her hit his face?.



No, why would he let her hit his face? He was caught off guard by the fact that she got over her fear so quickly, why is that so hard to understand? 



> Countless experiments? Orochimaru is a man obsessed with immortality.



I could recognize someone when they are near death, I can't pick up on tiny details like heartbeats though, and neither can a non-medical shinobi. Furthermore, Tsunade was not even close to death, so where are you getting at? 



> Kabuto and Orochimaru preplanned Tsunade's rebellion. They purposefully tired her out and had her chase them out of town, through a forest and across a battlefield before engaging her. Kabuto took soldier pills to cure his exhaustion, while Tsunade, who has not fought in years and is rusty, took himm on. Even then, every hit he gave her she returned without much trouble and she was able to shrug off most attacks to the point where Kabuto realized the only way to subdue her was to use a fear that she no longer has. Even then, Kabuto outright admitted inferiority to a rusty Tsunade despite the fact that he stacked the deck in his favor in nearly every possible advantage he could find. Despite this, Tsunade was depicted to be the superior combatant.



Your making it seem like overpowering Part 1 Kabuto is impressive, for Shippuden standards, Part 1 Kabuto was your average thug. 



> Part 1 Kabuto had the strength of Part 1 Kakashi, according to other characters' assessments. He was at least mid-high out of all that appeared in Part 1.



Well he has the hype, but lacks the feats to back it up. He is Zabuza's level at best, and Zabuza gets manhandled by even the weaker Shippuden introduced characters (Like Hidan). 



> Yes, but I'm stating that she had the speed to keep up with a lightened A/Onoki in terms of combat. She's certainly not slow by any means and she has the speed to make sure she's not blatantly overwhelmed by opponents.



No. She had the speed to jump towards the Susano'O, while Oonoki (While holding Ay) had to fly all the way around to a safe distance where Madara wouldn't notice faster then Tsunade can kick and jump. 



> It wasn't. If you go back and reread the chapter (588) you'll see that it's Madara's clone. The real Madara standing back on a pillar watching the Kage struggle like a boss. Besides, what reason would he have to enter the fray when the whole point was to taunt him with the strength of his clones with 5 vs. 1?



You make a fine point, il take your word for it and won't bother looking back. 



> Doesn't he need force in the opposite direction (as in B) to actually behead an opponent though? She took Susanno's strongest long range attack to the face, she's very physically durable.



No why would he, and the Susano'O attacked made a huge dent in her stomach, which she healed, I wouldn't call that durability. 



> Ay wouldn't step on her head either. He'd probably (and rightfully) assume that she's dead.



If she would be trying to stay alive by healing, he would notice. Not that she can, but lets play your game and say that she could, she has no way of re-connecting herself to her body without Katsuyu, and she can't summon Katsuyu without her body, she will be a helpless head trying to stay alive until h Byakougo chakra runs out and she finally dies, so ultimately, no matter how you look at it, she will die once decapitated. Though like I said, she won't survive decapitation to begin with, just a scenario for food for thought. 



> She created a deep fissure large enough to entrap Naruto . The fissure she made was just as deep as A's crater, if not more so, and it was extended farther than A's crater and this was just with a single finger.



Are you seriously comparing THIS  to THIS? That's like comparing Ribcage Susano'O to PS. 




> She's only had two fights in the manga. A single punch knocked Orochimaru out and sent him running in fear of another blow. Keep in mind, Orochimaru has accomplished Tsunade on tons of missions before. He knows that a punch is lethal. Madara is an Edo Tensei. Physical strength isn't going to do much seeing that he can regenerate any damage, but, even then, her punch created a gaping hole in his side (Madara appeared to switch before he was sealed).



Don't twist the truth, he did not go because he was scared of her. That was a Madara clone, not the original Madara, dude, re-read that section. 



> 80% is a very generous estimate. Out of the Konoha 11 + Sai, 5 of those 12 were out on a mission. If we times 7/12 out of 16,000, we get somewhere around 9,000. And this isn't including all of the filler crowd civilians we see in Konoha. This is army contributions alone. If we even assume that Pain killed 1,000 Shinobi, that still leaves thousands of Shinobi Tsunade had to heal and protect. It's clear that canon has portrayed her as a chakra beast. 16K comes from the fact that it must be Konoha's contribution to the alliance army (which had 100K soldiers)



Do you know what 20% of 16, 000 is? That's the amount of soldiers that stayed (based on my estimate) and most people in Konoha are Shinobi, plus you have to account for the things the regular medical Nin did, as they obviously did not idly wait and watch people die, and then you have to account for all those that suffered no damage. And then subtract 1000+ from that. Not as many people as you may think. 



> Sasori does not have a brain, yet he is still capable of thinking. The soul takes over some of the brains functions in this manga (as I've stated earlier). Konan can turn herself entirely into paper and I can tell you that paper doesn't quite have a brain either. Hell, we've seen Sasori smashed to pieces but only his heart is the organic thing about him.



He does have a brain, his heart serves as his brain. Konan still has a brain when she turns into paper, but it disperses like the rest of her body. 



> If Kakuzu would die because of decapitation, how come no one ever attempts to argue this in the BD Forms? Canon has made it super clear that you have to kill the four masks and that's what each of the characters did. No one tried to loophole it, and there was no indication that it could be loopholed. Even by Shikamaru, the most astute character in the series.



Because decapitation is easier said then done, not many are fast enough to blitz Kakuzu and use cutting abilities/weapons. And now your trying to go against the flow of the manga, do you seriously expect for them to decapitate Kakuzu and say that's game? The manga sure wouldn't be fun if everyone where trying to go for decapitation. Ay's mindset is smash the head to pieces or decapitate it, which is why he is one of the only ones you can argue decap for. 




> Or if you can regenerate. Honestly, I wouldn't include just Tsunade in this either. I think under some circumstances, Kisame could regenerate his head with Samehada.



My god dude what are you talking about? One does not simply regenerate their head in the Narutoverse, of the brain is not attached to the body, how can it possibly give orders to the body to being with? Why couldn't Tsunade just regenerate her lower half? That's certainly a thousand times easier isn't it? Don't spout this ridiculous shit, NO ONE, and I repeat NO ONE can regenerate a head. Not even Madara (Who has far better healing then Tsunade does FYI). 




> She's regrown bone when Orochimaru pierced her rib cage or when Madara sent a sword through her spine. She's regrown muscle from Kabuto's attacks. Hell, Shosen jutsu cured Shikamaru of a broken leg, and her healing jutsu is said to surpass all of this. She needed Katsuyu to reattach her bottom half because she didn't have the chakra to regenerate and, even then, she can't regenerate if she's pinned under a heavy tree because there's simply no room to do so.



No, she could not regenerate it period, her healing is not on the same level as a Jubi Jinchuriki. And regrowing a head transcends that level. 



> Additionally, the databook says she can regenerate all organs and parts. Parts is a synonym for limb.



No, parts as in any other parts like bone, or muscle. 



> Do you not know how physics works? If Tsunade was unable to withstand her own impacts, her hand would probably shatter each time she attacks. When you exert force on an object, the object exerts equal force onto you. It's why your hand might hurt when you punch a wall.



She won't take damage from her own attack unless she makes a punch that goes beyond the limits of her body. 



> You call it what you want but plot armor isn't an argument since the whole manga is plot (if it's actually good plot is debatable). I can easily state Madara's clone or Orochimaru's survival at a first punch is plot armor, but, instead, I really can't because the parameters the manga gave me are what I have to work with.



Yeah but that would get you no where. Here the plot armour is obvious, Madara could have killed the Kages if he wanted to, but he decided to just leave them all unconscious, that's not something that would happen under normal battle circumstances, therefore, its PIS or plot armour.


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 21, 2014)

Hashirama
edo minato
minato
Tobirama
old Hiruzen
Oonoki
Sandaime Raikage
Yagura
Muu/Trollkage
3rd Kazekage
Ei
Tsunade
Gaara
4th Kazekage
Mei


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Who knows.



There is a possibility, that possibility is outweighed by the other possibilities. 





> This is painfully hypocritical of you.



Not at all hypocritical. 





> So you consider that sufficient evidence? .



I never objected to such a claim either, but your going the extra mile and saying she can survive decapitation, a whole different level of regen. 




> Oh that. Kirigakure is not short on large bodies of water.



And Nidaime just happened to go for a swim and noticed a clam that he assumed can help him use mist like abilities...........





> That's the only injury we've seen it sustain, though. Just because Ohnoki broke the entire clam doesn't mean that's the bare minimum required for it to be killed.



But assuming that a mere hole in the clam would Kill it is a bit hasty. 





> When which Katsuyu's get too close for his liking? Bear in mind that she can be coming from more than one direction at once given her plurality, and the explosion is something she can endure without issue. The only way to reliably repel them from each potential direction they may be coming from is to be near enough to the clam that'd it'd be caught up in the AoE of the blast itself.



When Katsuyu literally gets too close. Once he sees that she is coming near him, he will send them flying back, that's the only reasonable thing to do to something that is about to uncover your secret. Its not a matter of wether she can endure it or not, even if she could, she will not be able to avoid getting thrown back by the explosion. 




> If they had any real chance to seal him it'd mean that he was too weak to replicate his feat of casually rolling through their squads with Taijutsu (because he could still oil out of Gaara's sand), something I'd expect to be less taxing than performing a battlefield-wide Genjutsu haze.



I don't expect such a way of spreading Genjutsu to be chakra taxing in the slightest. It requires almost no effort from him at all. 





> And based on what should the Mizukage be able to keep that up longer than the village-sustaining Hokage can keep up her healing?



The Mizukage puts a set amount of chakra into Jokey Boy, and it rinse repeats its damage. It does not require him to constantly poor chakra into it. 





> Firstly, if you think that an object striking somebody's raised arms will fold them over at the waist you have no understanding of human body dynamics. Were he bent as a result of being hit in his elevated guard, his waist would have folded the other way like he was playing limbo; if she had hit him in his stomach and/or hip, however, well.....it'd look like the panel we have, so that's what I'm going to go with.



If one strikes someone's raised arms *in the air * it will send them back folded, if you do not understand this, then you are the one who lacks the understanding of human dynamics. Remember the part where Ay hits Madara and he puts his guard up? His body was folded just as well, it seems you are misinformed of human dynamics. Remember the part where Ay hits Km Naruto in the air and KM Naruto blocks but is sent back folded? Ya. 



> Secondly, trying to disregard the feat "because there wasn't enough time" irregardless of the fact that her foot is clearly beneath his arms sounds an awful lot like you allowing your pre-suppositional stance on Tsunade to skew your vision to me, because in no way does that do anything to falsify my explanation rooted in the panel's very illustration for the opposite claim that she _did_ notice his guard and kick below it.



Like I said earlier, her foot was at his knees, it was simply poorly drawn. 



> Lastly, blocking only diverts damage to your arms, it doesn't outright erase it. If you're going to claim his armor should have been regenerating then his arms should have been regenerating as well, but they weren't. The absence of regeneration can be explained by Tsunade's rectus femoris muscles having been severed by _Tensō no Jutsu_, but not by Madara's block having been successful.



Putting resistance with the arms would certainly fair better then get hit straight in the stomach with no resistance. 





> I don't see why not, given that even with her muscles severed she slapped Kabuto hard enough to crack into the ground.



Huge difference between the two. In one Madara gets sent WAY back and in the other instance Kabuto hits the ground, not a fair comparison. 



> Movement speed is inconsequential to the scenario I'm proposing. Ay's speed plays the role of getting him into melee-range for his gigantic-strength-focused swings and grabs, the follow-throughs of which elongate his time in forced close-proximity.



Tsunade still has to be fast enough to turn around before he cuts her off or sends her flying, she is not that fast. No matter how you look at it, movement speed plays a role. 




> Okay, _one_ chop was against a bull horn instead of Susano'o bones. He's still primarily opted for punches throughout his fights with Taka, Kisame, Naruto/Bee, and Madara/Mū.



For half those times he opted for Elbows (Lariate is not a punch BTW). And no matter the circumstance, he always goes for the head (Punch, Elbow or Chop). 





> Ay apparently doesn't even think she can die until her stamina runs out, so it doesn't matter.



Does not mean he won't try (and succeed) in finishing her off, and besides, where was this? 




> I'm going to try explaining one more time why it doesn't require speed that rivals Ay's own.



Ay had Susano'O flying with a chop even when the Susano'O was stationary. She would have to focus all her resistance all over her body, as, if Ay hits her face and she does not put massive resistance in her legs, then she will loose footing and be sent flying, but if she does not put massive resistance on her face, she will either loose her head or at the very least, be sent flying in a position that would make her look like she is playing limbo. If she does not put enough resistance in her upper body her head will fly PERIOD. There is too much resistance needed everywhere and too little of a gap in strength between the two for her to avoid getting sent flying. And furthermore, lets say by a miracle she DOES avoid getting sent flying, she quickly has to recover and turn around and then beat Ay reflexes, something which is NOT going to happen. She simply has no way of trading blows with Ay.   



> She is _not_ playing tag with the Raikage.



I explained above, but as insult to injury, I will simply say that by the time she is able to turn around and punch Ay back (if she even holds her ground which she won't), Ay will already the in front of her and will hit her again. And the process will repeat, until Ay feels like decapitating her fast with a chop. 




> Evading a human sized body being carried primarily by the force of his swing (he was, because he changed direction after missing Sasuke, and he can't fly) from that large of a distance isn't superior to anything Tsunade has done.



Did you see the AoE that his charge created? Jugo escaped it. 




> Tsunade punched.



Madara was not ever inside the Dragon, she was likely under or in the water dragon. Furthermore, Ay hit Ribcage Susano'O before Tsunade hit it, and Ay was also logically pushing the Susano'O towards her as he hit, furthermore, the speed at which they where traveling, was Oonoki's speed while carrying Ay (Who still needed to be heavy enough to do some good damage to Susano'O). Furthermore, there is a much larger gap between Oonoki and the Susano'O and the Susano'O with the borders of the Panel (If Tsunade was not in or under the dragon, she was certainly just behind the borders of the panel).





> It was explicitly stated that Sasuke put up the Enton because he couldn't track Raikage; that it happened after Ay reappeared is coincidental.



It was literally shown on panel that Ay was behind the Susano'O before Enton was activated. 




> That's only if Mū can clear Katsuyu's breadth faster than Tsunade can perform a Kuchiyose. I don't think he's fast enough to do that. If you want to talk crazy impossibilities you ought to recite your post in the mirror.



Implying that Muu will make a direct assault as quickly as possible like a complete idiot.  And no, if needed examples of crazy impossibilities, they just ought to look at what you and the other Tsunade fans are posting, especially the matter concerning decapitation, I can't help but giggle. 



> I never claimed that; I said a single boss doesn't constitute _5%_ of Katsuyu. I only used 10% Katsuyu to put that into perspective because half of 10% Katsuyu is still significantly larger than Naruto's Kurama avatar, which itself is roughly the size of a boss summon.



5% of Katsuyu is roughly a couple meters higher then Bunta. 

What do you mean "no" if you're going to go on to claim something like that?



> Flying up and going around her requires that he........



No, Katsuyu is not that big, the only way your improbable scenario would occur is if Muu literally charges full speed ahead at Tsunade. He is no no hurry, he can and will take his time. 



> Findings in rats......



No, the head does not even have time to fully close their eyes once decapitated. Which means 10-13 seconds is certainly over the time possible. And if several seconds is 2 seconds, then that can be somewhat reasonable, though still unlikely. 





> I just gave you a multiplicity of examples of ninja surviving.



You haven't given me a single one, what on earth are you talking about. 




> By regenerating.



Regenerating what? A whole new body? God how ridiculous can this get, I will play this more then ridiculous game, and say that even if she did survive decapitation, AND regrew an entire body, she will be completely out of chakra, as that is far beyond any petty wounds she received and healed against Madara up until her chakra replenishment. Or Ay just crushes her head like stomping on a pumpkin. 





> It _is_ your burden of proof because the claim that she cannot contradicts canon testimonials (i.e. manga evidence for the manga character), as opposed to remaining consistent with them. It isn't like Tsunade'd be the first or last person established to be able to survive decapitation either.



There is no manga evidence provided that she can survive decapitation. Saying she can regrow organs does not cut the slice.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 22, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Hashirama
> edo minato
> minato
> Tobirama
> ...


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Hashirama
> edo minato
> minato
> Tobirama
> ...



[YOUTUBE]THIS[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## ueharakk (Jul 22, 2014)

performance and hype.  He was stated to be the strongest of the kages at the time by kabuto, he was the only one holding off the statue, and was able to make one of the four walls of the hokage barrier all while old.

I'm sure if kishi put him against oonoki, he'd give hiruzen the feats to beat the tsuchikage.


----------



## Empathy (Jul 22, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Another faulty comparison because Tsunade is prepping a strike on some village floor, while Ei is piledriving a person into the foundation of a huge building. Ei's force also got mitigated by Susano taking alot of the damage.



How do you know that the floor of the Kage Summit is more durable than the ground Tsunade smashed? I doubt it's something that's taken into account when the author is trying to decide how big of a crater to draw. I don't see how A pile-driving something that's very durable and solid into the ground with all his might would somehow reduce the crater; as opposed to just slamming a comparatively squishy Sasuke. If you dropped a cannonball and pillow off a house, the cannonball would make a bigger hole in the ground. 



> Once again my argument wasn't that Tsunade isn't stronger, but not by too much.



My argument is that it's by a lot. Therefore our opinions differ, and I can't allow any deviation to my opinion go by uncontested.



> Because in case you didn't know more velocity equals more power. Ei specifically claims he needs to get more speed to hit madara harder which comes to fruition when Onooki lightens him up and he starts hitting harder.



The disagreement was that _Raiton no Yoroi_ increases his physical strength. Of course something moving at a faster speed (which is what _Raiton no Yoroi_ augments), would have greater force behind it than something moving slower. Onoki made A weightless so he'd move much faster, but Onoki greatly increased A's weight just before striking so the blow would have more weight behind it. If he hadn't increase his weight, A would just be throwing extremely light punches.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 22, 2014)

Not a fan of lists because some characters will be just bad much ups
or this whole A > B > C logic. But either way.

1- BM Minato
2- Hashirama
3- 3rd Raikage
4- Mu/ 2nd Mizukage
5- Onoki
6- A
7- Tobirama
8- Yagura
9- Tsunade
10- Old Hiruzen
11- Mei
12- Gaara
13- 3rd Kazekage
14- 4th Kazekgae

Some of the lower Kages can defeat some of the higher Kages. 
For example, I do believe that the 4th Kazekage would defeat the 2nd Mizukage because of his Gold advantage.
Or Tobirama defeating Onoki..etc


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 22, 2014)

^That has to be one of the worst lists I have ever seen

My god where does one start...


----------



## Trojan (Jul 22, 2014)

^
I don't care. @>@
If you want to start go ahead, and I'll try to reply, if not
you just wasted our time with a useless post... @.@

(Except for BM Minato & Hashirama because I'm not going through that shit again)


----------



## Nikushimi (Jul 22, 2014)

Other than the obvious Minato wank and Tobirama being a little too low, I actually don't think Hussain's list is all that bad.

Definitely better than a lot of the other lists that have been posted.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Other than the obvious Minato wank and Tobirama being a little too low, I actually don't think Hussain's list is all that bad.
> 
> Definitely better than a lot of the other lists that have been posted.



inb4 you


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jul 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Other than the obvious Minato wank and Tobirama being a little too low, I actually don't think Hussain's list is all that bad.
> 
> Definitely better than a lot of the other lists that have been posted.



Well he is a known Minato tard and Tobirama hater so that much was expeted. However to place Tobirama so low is absurd.

Mei above Gaara
Ei so high
3rd Raikae while he's a beast should not be that high in my opinion. Mu/onoki/Trollkage would all be superior shinobi *overall*. However this seems to be split pretty evenly among this thread so it's not worth debating


----------



## FlamingRain (Jul 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> There is a possibility, that possibility is outweighed by the other possibilities.



But not anymore so than the Third Hokage and Kazekage, which is my entire point. It's inconsistent.



> I never objected to such a claim either.



The level of regeneration she operates at is the one that can rebuild all of her organs and parts according to the techniques description, so saying she can survive decapitation is within the realm of the technique's capabilities.

By arbitrarily saying that she actually can't rebuild her head you're inherently saying that she can't rebuild all of her organs and parts. In other words, _*you're*_ opposing the canon description of the technique whereas I'm simply following along with it.

That's called objecting to it.



> And Nidaime just happened to go for a swim and noticed a clam that he assumed can help him use mist like abilities.



Sure. It's more believable than Jiraiya just happening to find a sacred toad mountain, Tsunade just happening to find a sacred slug forest, and Orochimaru just happening to find a sacred snake cave which they could incorporate into their respective arsenals (which they all did).



> But assuming that a mere hole in the clam would Kill it is a bit hasty.



A hole in something would kill most things. It isn't hasty at all, it's to be expected.



> When Katsuyu literally gets too close.



I take it my point flew right over your head yet again. Katsuyu can come from multiple directions at once because there are so many of her. Because the blast's force is radial, the only way every potential direction could reliably be repulsed at once is if Jōki Bōi is centralized in the clam's vicinity. Jōki Bōi's reformation and pressure-building process also isn't fast enough to simply run in circles around the clam knocking the slugs back from every direction they could come from.

They are going to reach it eventually. It'll be even easier if they just direct Tsunade over there, too.



> I don't expect such a way of spreading Genjutsu to be chakra taxing in the slightest.



Continually synthesizing your Chakra with a mist across such a wide area of effect doesn't sound taxing to you?



> The Mizukage puts a set amount of chakra into Jokey Boy, and it rinse repeats its damage. It does not require him to constantly poor chakra into it.



If Jōki Bōi became independent after the Mizukage first poured Chakra into it his body shouldn't remain so weakened in response to the technique. Instead he should just recover after the initial casting, but he doesn't as long as the technique is active.



> If one strikes someone's raised arms *in the air * it will send them back folded, if you do not understand this, then you are the one who lacks the understanding of human dynamics.



You are either blind or an idiot.

When Ay punched Madara it put him into the shape of an L, because he kept his upper body straightened and it pulled his legs along with it, and the movement lines line Madara's forearms up with Ay's fist; when Tsunade kicked him it put him into the shape of a C, because his stomach got hit and pulled everything else along behind it, and directional lines align Tsunade's kick with Madara's midsection instead of his arms.

Naruto was already crouched when he jumped, but when he got hit he still made more of an L (upper body dragging legs) and only folded in the first sense that Madara did (C, midsection dragging remainder of upper and lower body) once he began experiencing traction after his feet hit and started skidding across the ground.



> Like I said earlier, her foot was at his knees, *it was simply poorly drawn*.



Don't give me that.

Not even Kishi is going to draw something _that_ far off from what he intends to show. It's unacceptable.

I've already explained why the two are positioned the way they are.



> Putting resistance with the arms would certainly fair better then get hit straight in the stomach with no resistance.



It only fares better because an injured arm is less detrimental to your performance than an injured stomach. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the arms can and will be hurt just like anything else.



> Huge difference between the two. In one Madara gets sent WAY back and in the other instance Kabuto hits the ground, not a fair comparison.



I think the fact that Kabuto hit the ground hard enough to go and break it kind of suggests that he'd have gone flying a significant distance were he to have gone higher.

Plus there's a huge difference between the rusty, out-of-shape, out-of-breath Tsunade that hit Kabuto and the fit one that hit Madara.



> Tsunade still has to be fast enough to turn around before he cuts her off or sends her flying, she is not that fast.



Cover punches and back-kicks exist, as do backhands; there is no real need for Tsunade to completely reposition herself by 180 degrees before the impact. She won't blast off faster than Susano'o did, if anything she'll take longer, and she threw a kick before even it left Ay's hand, so she's capable of striking swiftly enough to accomplish what I'm proposing she does.



> Does not mean he won't try (and succeed) in finishing her off, and besides, where was this?



In the Susano'o clone skirmish he warned that even if she could not die she'd wear her stamina out if she kept fighting the way she did at that point, meaning he outright dis-concerned himself with the possibility of her dying while the technique was active and worried over how long she could keep the technique active instead; it should be clear what that suggests.



> Ay had Susano'O flying with a chop even when the Susano'O was stationary.



But it didn't go flying _immediately_, it was a delayed projection, and Sasuke's baby Susano'o isn't nearly as strong as Tsunade.



> She would have to focus all her resistance all over her body, as, *if Ay hits her face and she does not* put massive resistance in her legs, then she will loose footing and be sent flying, but *if she does not* put massive resistance on her face, she will either loose her head or at the very least, be sent flying in a position that would make her look like she is playing limbo. *If she does not* put enough resistance in her upper body her head will fly PERIOD.



_"If she does not, if she does not, if she does not"_. So what? My entire point is centered around the idea that she _does_ put resistance in, so what happens if she doesn't is of no consequence.



> There is too much resistance needed everywhere and too little of a gap in strength between the two for her to avoid getting sent flying.



I don't get it. Tsunade digging her heels in doesn't sap all of her upper body strength, and she's stronger than he is by the same margin that he's faster than she is, brosky. Y'know who Ay's strength is most comparable to? _Pre-war arc V1 Bee's_. Know who Tsunade's is comparable to? _Ten Tails revival arc Sakura's_.



> I will simply say that by the time she is able to turn around and punch Ay back, Ay will already the in front of her and will hit her again.



You have Ay and Gai's fighting styles confused. Just because they're both fast doesn't mean they both consistently flit around the field, and they don't.



> Did you see the AoE that his charge created? Jugo escaped it.



No he didn't, you clearly see all the flying debris right around him- the shockwave just didn't hurt him.



> Madara was not ever inside the Dragon, she was likely under or in the water dragon.



If Madara was never inside the dragon Mei couldn't have spit him out. We saw him within the dragon when Mei first manifested it to push him into the air.



> Furthermore, Ay hit Ribcage Susano'O before Tsunade hit it, and Ay was also logically pushing the Susano'O towards her as he hit



That's not logical at all.



> the speed at which they where traveling, was Oonoki's speed while carrying Ay



The speed at which they were traveling has nothing to do with the speed at which Ay's hand parted with Susano'o, because Ay was still the one who threw the strike.



> Furthermore, there is a much larger gap between Oonoki and the Susano'O and the Susano'O with the borders of the Panel.



You need glasses, Tsunade came into the attack nigh horizontally. Horizontally across from Ohnoki's side of Susano'o to the border of the panel is much larger than the distance between Ohnoki and Susano'o.



> It was literally shown on panel that Ay was behind the Susano'O before Enton was activated.



Yes, and that was coincidence. It doesn't need to be attributed to Sasuke having realized Ay was there, especially not when we have someone attesting to the reason Sasuke that brought out Enton being that he wasn't able to track Ay.



> 5% of Katsuyu is roughly a couple meters higher then Bunta.



Bunta sized Katsuyu is less than 5% of Katsuyu. You seem to have either missed or outright ignored how I came to that conclusion.



> He is no no hurry, he can and will take his time.



Taking his time just gives Tsunade a larger time frame to summon Katsuyu and squish him. Mū has no knowledge, and as such has no incentive to fly way out of the way towards Tsunade to circle around her when he's already invisible to the naked eye to begin with.



> No, the head does not even have time to fully close their eyes once decapitated.



Where is your basis that I should be taking over all these other accounts?



> You haven't given me a single one, what on earth are you talking about.



Sasori's head is irrelevant to his survival due to the effect of his Jutsu, Orochimaru can barf entire bodies head included out of any part of his person under the influence of his Jutsu, Konan's head can split from her body under the influence of her Jutsu, Suigetsu's head can be splattered under the effects of his Jutsu.

The data-book and Tsunade claim that her head can be regenerated under the effects of her Jutsu when they say "all" organs and parts.



> Regenerating what?



A whole new head.



> There is no manga evidence provided that she can survive decapitation. Saying she can regrow organs does not cut the slice.



Yes it does. Saying that she can regrow _all_ organs and parts means that she can regrow the organs and parts that constitute her head.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Other than the obvious Minato wank and Tobirama being a little too low, I actually don't think Hussain's list is all that bad.
> 
> Definitely better than a lot of the other lists that have been posted.



I don't Wank. 

as for Tobirama, I placed him below those



> 1- BM Minato
> 2- Hashirama


I don't I need to explain this, Tobirama is weaker than even base Minato. @>@
so, BM will just destroy the fuck out of him.


> 3- 3rd Raikage


I don't see what Tobirama can do to him honestly. The 3rd has much stronger body and more chakra than Tobirama. None of Tobirama's attacks will effect him. And I think Tobirama is given advantage when people count ET for him as it require prepare time, and the problem is most people don't count ET for Oro or Kabuto, so I don't know why should I count that for him.

Either way, if we gave him this prepare time I think it's only fair to give it to the others as well.
(Minato still solo with Frog Song though. ) 


> 4- Mu/ 2nd Mizukage


The Mizukage can't be sensed, and his body is made of water and oil, so I really don't see how is Tobirama's water jutsus are going to effect him at all. And as far as know Tobirama can't find the Mizukage, and even if he did he can't hurt him or his summon.

Mu when he disappears he can't be sensed either, and his jinton is stronger than Tobirama's attacks.
Tobirama can't touch it to teleport it, and he does not use FTG like Minato so he is very limited.

Not to mention his statement about the numbers do not matter to him.

Both of those Kages fought to Kages (Gaara and Onoki) and despite telling their weaknesses to them
and not even fighting seriously, the SA barely won. On the other hand Tobirama's portrayal was not as good IMO, he lost to only 20, and he surely was not telling them about himself, and even with his students he was not strong enough to made it...


> 5- Onoki



I can so Tobirama winning here, but I think Onoki is just better over all than Tobirama. He just did amazingly against the Edo Kage, and Madara. 

so, just like I stated, just because a character above another does not necessarily mean they will beat all characters below them. 


> 6- A



Imagine A Vs Minato. The only different is Tobirama is slower, so he won't get the time to use FTG.
Pretty much what happened to him against Obito will happen to him here.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> But not anymore so than the Third Hokage and Kazekage, which is my entire point. It's inconsistent.



You could debate about that with the list you had a problem with. You said yourself it was not towards my list so I don't want to hear this "inconsistent" shit as it does not apply to me. 





> The level of regeneration she operates at is the one that can rebuild all of her organs and parts according to the techniques description, so saying she can survive decapitation is within the realm of the technique's capabilities.



One needs to have a brain on a body to regenerate a head, the body cannot give itself that command. So regenerating a head is utter BS. 





> Sure. It's more believable than Jiraiya just happening to find a sacred toad mountain, Tsunade just happening to find a sacred slug forest, and Orochimaru just happening to find a sacred snake cave which they could incorporate into their respective arsenals (which they all did).



Oro did extensive amounts of research. Tsunade likely did the same. Jiraiya was probably summoned to the mountains because of the prophecy of him being the teacher of the chose one. 




> A hole in something would kill most things. It isn't hasty at all, it's to be expected.



It won't kill anything unless that said hole is on the head or in a heart. 




> I take it my point flew right over your head yet again. Katsuyu can come from multiple directions at once because there are so many of her. Because the blast's force is radial, the only way every potential direction could reliably be repulsed at once is if Jōki Bōi is centralized in the clam's vicinity. Jōki Bōi's reformation and pressure-building process also isn't fast enough to simply run in circles around the clam knocking the slugs back from every direction they could come from



No, you just don't know Jokey Boys AoE. I took a sand shield  big to completely block the explosion. All the Katsuyu's will be sent back all at once, as they will split into enough Katsuyus to go in literally every direction. 



> They are going to reach it eventually. It'll be even easier if they just direct Tsunade over there, too.



No they won't, as Jokey Boy will send ALL of them flying, and Tsunade would not fair any better. 





> Continually synthesizing your Chakra with a mist across such a wide area of effect doesn't sound taxing to you?



No, not really. Its mere mist. 




> If Jōki Bōi became independent after the Mizukage first poured Chakra into it his body shouldn't remain so weakened in response to the technique. Instead he should just recover after the initial casting, but he doesn't as long as the technique is active.



No its the complete opposite. If Mizukage did not just pour chakra into Jokey Boy and let it rinse repeat then he wouldn't become so weakened once using it. Its pretty clear that the attack rinse repeats itself, he does not gradually put chakra into every explosion. 



> You are either blind or an idiot.



You have a point on both accounts, though I completely forgot the purpose of this example. Was it to attempt to show how fast Tsunade can be? If so, does that mean that you really just compared a expected teleportation to a straight up 1 V 2? 





> I think the fact that Kabuto hit the ground hard enough to go and break it kind of suggests that he'd have gone flying a significant distance were he to have gone higher.



Not that far I'd wager. 



> Plus there's a huge difference between the rusty, out-of-shape, out-of-breath Tsunade that hit Kabuto and the fit one that hit Madara.



Fit one? That's not what you where saying when you said that she had torn muscles when she hit Madara. She was just as 'out-of-shape' against Madara as she was against Kabuto. She never fought since her fight with Kabuto as she was merely healing from the side lines. And she was out-of-breath because she couldn't hit Kabuto, which is pretty sad. 




> Cover punches and back-kicks exist, as do backhands; there is no real need for Tsunade to completely reposition herself by 180 degrees before the impact. She won't blast off faster than Susano'o did, if anything she'll take longer, and she threw a kick before even it left Ay's hand, so she's capable of striking swiftly enough to accomplish what I'm proposing she does.



All those options won't even make Ay flinch, assuming she ever even landed them. She would likely fly *faster* then Susano'O did, as Ribcage Susano'O does not have to put resistance into any limb, as its basically a big hard shield. And of course Ay made the Suano'O fly with a single chop, which would decapitate Tsunade, but if he goes for a punch, it will hold much more strength then a mere chop. 




> In the Susano'o clone skirmish he warned that even if she could not die she'd wear her stamina out if she kept fighting the way she did at that point, meaning he outright dis-concerned himself with the possibility of her dying while the technique was active and worried over how long she could keep the technique active instead; it should be clear what that suggests.




Talk about twisting the truth for your argument. He never said such a thing, what he really said was that she would die if she continued fighting as sloppy as she was [1]. 




> But it didn't go flying _immediately_, it was a delayed projection, and Sasuke's baby Susano'o isn't nearly as strong as Tsunade.



How would Tsunade land a punch when she is just about to go flying with Ay's fist in her face? Hardly, Susano'O can put up more resistance then Tsunade can as Susano'O does not have to evenly distribute resistance all over its body, its one block of shield. And Ay's punch will be more powerful then a chop, as dealing power is actually a punches purpose as opposed to a Chops. 



> _"If she does not, if she does not, if she does not"_. So what? My entire point is centered around the idea that she _does_ put resistance in, so what happens if she doesn't is of no consequence.



Well then, you have the same dilemma as with Muu, the chances that she does accomplish the one scenario is one in a hundred. The does not far outweigh the does. 




> I don't get it. Tsunade digging her heels in doesn't sap all of



Not at all. His speed far outclasses her own, and her strength is only slightly better then his own, as proved by the *near* identical amount of damage the two have dealt to Susano'O. 




> You have Ay and Gai's fighting styles confused. Just because they're both fast doesn't mean they both consistently flit around the field, and they don't.



Gai incorporates skill, Ay does not, he relies on his brute strength and speed. 




> No he didn't, you clearly see all the flying debris right around him- the shockwave just didn't hurt him


.

Because he barely escaped it, but he did nevertheless. 




> If Madara was never inside the dragon Mei couldn't have spit him out. We saw him within the dragon when Mei first manifested it to push him into the air.



He was just about to get spit out when you see him, that's why you see him. The water is not transparent enough to see through it. 



> That's not logical at all.



Its completely logical, unless you seriously think that Oonoki just stood in one spot after Ay hit the Susano'O and Ay suddenly lost all his strength. 





> The speed at which they were traveling has nothing to do with the speed at which Ay's hand parted with Susano'o, because Ay was still the one who threw the strike.



Your point? 



> You need glasses, Tsunade came into the attack nigh horizontally. Horizontally across from Ohnoki's side of Susano'o to the border of the panel is much larger than the distance between Ohnoki and Susano'o.



Ok




> Yes, and that was coincidence. It doesn't need to be attributed to Sasuke having realized Ay was there, especially not when we have someone attesting to the reason Sasuke that brought out Enton being that he wasn't able to track Ay.



Karin was talking about how Sasuke could not keep up physically, but from here we will have to agree to disagree. 




> Bunta sized Katsuyu is less than 5% of Katsuyu. You seem to have either missed or outright ignored how I came to that conclusion.



Probably missed it, as its not a accurate conclusion. 



> Taking his time just gives Tsunade a larger time frame to summon Katsuyu and squish him. Mū has no knowledge, and as such has no incentive to fly way out of the way towards Tsunade to circle around her when he's already invisible to the naked eye to begin with.



Muu does not need knowledge, he attacked Oonoki from from behind, the logical thing to do with something like Mujin Mode would be to attack from behind or the sides, a frontal assault would make Mujin Mode utterly useless as its the first place one would assume a invisible man to be if they turned invisible in front of them. Katsuyu will not be big enough to reach Muu, and if the starting distance is close enough to the point where she CAN crush Muu, it will also be the distance that Muu can attack Tsunade before she summons Katsuyu. 




> Where is your basis that I should be taking over all these other accounts?



Search it up yourself, I am not your fact book on decapitation, I will not spoon feed you. 



> Sasori's head is irrelevant to his survival due to the effect of his Jutsu, Orochimaru can barf entire bodies head included out of any part of his person under the influence of his Jutsu, Konan's head can split from her body under the influence of her Jutsu, Suigetsu's head can be splattered under the effects of his Jutsu.



Orochimaru barfs out his real body, not a "whole new head". Konan's head separated with with her Jutsu and Suigetsu turns into water, his real head does not actually get splattered. 




> A whole new head.



She cannot do that. If her head is severed from her body, she cannot give the command for her body to regenerate a new head, as the head would need to be attached to the body to give it commands.m

Besides, if she could even regenerate limbs, then why did she not regenerate her lower half? Why did Katsuyu have to re-attach her lower half for her? Face it, this shit your spouting is nonsense.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 22, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't Wank.
> 
> as for Tobirama, I placed him below those
> 
> ...



I won't go into detail considering how unreasonable you are, but I'll just tell you to read the OP:


Destiny Monarch said:


> Please rank the Kages based on overall strength, as opposed to how they would do in a 1 Vs 1 against another Kage, that makes the lists more accurate.



And I like how you look at overall strength when it comes to Tobirama vs. Ōnoki, but when you're talking about Tobirama vs. A, you judge by how it would go in a battle.


----------



## Ennoia (Jul 22, 2014)

Hashirama
Dead Minato
Young Hiruzen
Yagura
Mu
Gaara
Tobirama
3rd Raikage
2nd Mizukage
Minato
Danzo
Onoki
A
3rd Kazekage
4th Kazekage
Mei
Tsunade

I tried to use feats along with statements to make this list while assuming any fighting is happening on a neutral battlefield. I would say that the people that are higher up are more likely to win a fight while also beating most if not all of the people below them. I speculated in the case of Yagura by assuming he was similar to B.


----------



## Hachibi (Jul 22, 2014)

Ennoia said:


> Hashirama
> *Dead Minato*
> Young Hiruzen
> Yagura
> ...



Funny how Minato can destroy all the Kage bar Hashirama while dead


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> And I like how you look at overall strength when it comes to Tobirama vs. Ōnoki, but when you're talking about Tobirama vs. A, you judge by how it would go in a battle.



I never even looked at a Tobirama Vs Ay. And if you mean Tsunade, it was not I who started the 1 Vs 1 talk, I simply asked why Tsunade was so high up on someone's list, and it turned into a 1 Vs 1.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> I never even looked at a Tobirama Vs Ay. And if you mean Tsunade, it was not I who started the 1 Vs 1 talk, I simply asked why Tsunade was so high up on someone's list, and it turned into a 1 Vs 1.



I was talking to Hussain, I quoted what you said in the OP to show him how to rank.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I was talking to Hussain, I quoted what you said in the OP to show him how to rank.



Haha, I saw my name and jumped to conclusions, my bad.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 22, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I won't go into detail considering how unreasonable you are, but I'll just tell you to read the OP:
> 
> 
> And I like how you look at overall strength when it comes to Tobirama vs. Ōnoki, but when you're talking about Tobirama vs. A, you judge by how it would go in a battle.



- It's ok, I don't like too much drama. @>@
- as for battles and over all strength I already stated that will get messy because of that same thing
and that's why I don't like tier lists because they are all nonsensical no matter how much you try. 

anyway, I find those Kages stronger than Tobirama, you disagree, it's ok.


----------



## Ether (Jul 22, 2014)

0.) Prime Hiruzen(hype)
1.) Hashirama
2.) Minato
3.) Tobirama
4.) Edo Hiruzen
5.) Muu
6.) Onoki
7.) Gaara(w/Shukaku and Desert)
8.) Sandaime Raikage
9.) Gaara(w/Desert)
10.) Second Mizukage
11.) Tsunade
12.) Ay
13)  Base Gaara(no Desert or Shukaku)
14.) Mei
15.) Hiruzen(Old)
16.) Sandaime Kazekage 
17.) Yondaime Kazekage

This is just an overall tier list based on portrayal and feats.

Characters below another individual in this tier list can potentially beat said individual (Gaara w/Desert + Shukaku vs Tobirama for instance).


----------



## Ennoia (Jul 22, 2014)

Feng Shui said:


> 0.) Prime Hiruzen(hype)
> 1.) Hashirama
> 2.) Minato
> 3.) Tobirama
> ...



Im not seeing how Gaara in a desert is drastically weaker than Gaara outside of a desert when he can create a damn desert casually. Its ridiculous that you would drop him so many spots but that's still not as bad as Edo Hiruzen being below the likes of Tsunade, the Mizukage, and Onoki when he can use 5 boss summon level elemental attacks simultaneously with infinite chakra. I have to hear you're explanation for this.


----------



## Butterfly (Jul 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Its not a matter of wether she thinks she will be alright, she WAS alright, as she even undid the seal.


Well, giant gaping stab wounds didn't stop her nor did Kabuto shredding her muscles. Of course she'll be fine, she assured Shikamaru's dad with her seal earlier before moving. 



> Only thanks to the gangbang with Ay.


And yet her strength accelerated the process which would have probably taken more time without her strength. 



> You have yet to prove otherwise. Like I said earlier, being chopped in half =/= decapitated.


 Biologically, it's similar. The databook states death is impossible while using this technique, and that all organs and parts can be regenerated. I am going to assume this includes the brain and the head, because otherwise an exception would likely be noted. 



> It does not change the fact that she was tired because she couldn't hit Kabuto.


Who was running in one direction to a new location, a luxury most opponents don't have. Not to mention, she could have been aiming for Orochimaru the whole time. 



> He still keeps his eye on the target when he adjusts his glasses, he turned away from her, which is the only reason she got the drop on him.


Check the panel again, Kabuto is facing her direction[1]




> As she said hersel....


She said she's not unlucky when it comes to her life. That doesn't mean A) she's automatically lucky and B) she's lucky in regards to other people's lives. I mean, after all, Jiraiya died when she won a bet. If you read the chapter, Manda is about to snap his jaws when Tsunade flips the knife over. 



> No, why would he let her hit his face?


Because Orochimaru is a canonly observant man who wouldn't stand there, slackjawed and surprised for more than a millisecond if someone were to get over their fear in the heat of combat. He would have to observe Tsunade getting up off of the ground with every movement that required and yet you think he would still stand there? She already made her intentions clear multiple times, and recently just assumed the title of Hokage. You really think he'd be frozen by her own resolve long enough for her to get up and hit him in the face? What other times has Orochimaru been frozen by someone's extreme progress? This is the man who blatantly didn't give a damn when Naruto went to the four tails and when Naruto performed his own miracle (taking out his subordinate) his own response was proactive. He targeted Naruto.  



> I could recognize someone when they are near death..


Tsunade was stabbed in the same area that forced Hiruzen to give up sealing all of Orochimaru. It was also the same area that killed Asuma. She took three stab wounds from his legendary swords in the chest, which is riddled with organs vital. Orochimaru would have a more difficult time hitting things inconsequential to someone's health. 



> Your making it seem like overpowering Part 1 Kabuto is impressive....


Uh, no. I'm bringing up on how a rusty Tsunade was able to outclass a midhigh tier character in Part 1. Not to mention, people consistently bring up that Part 1 Kabuto spanked her, ego she's a terrible combatant. It seems like people just like looking at the pictures and not the words that accompany them, and, even then, sometimes they don't even look at the pictures correctly. 



> No. She had the speed to jump towards the Susano'O, while Oonoki...


There's no evidence that suggests they had to take a super laborious route to avoid Madara's attacks. Even then, Tsunade's speed still has to be adequate if she's able to kick Madara's susanno before he can even turn around. 



> No why would he,....


No,the attack hit her everywhere, including the face[1]. The wound she healed was from a sword that impaled her through her stomach. 




> If she would be trying to stay alive by healing, he would notice.../QUOTE]
> What? That doesn't cover the fact that her body is regenerating as A attacks her. Also, it might regenerate from her body, not necessarily her head. If she already summons Katsuyu (as she's not going to be immediately decapitated from the word go), then Katsuyu's existence would trouble the Raikage and Katsuyu is icly protective of Tsunade.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ether (Jul 22, 2014)

Ennoia said:


> Im not seeing how Gaara in a desert is drastically weaker than Gaara outside of a desert when he can create a damn desert casually. Its ridiculous that you would drop him so many spots but that's still not as bad as Edo Hiruzen being below the likes of Tsunade, the Mizukage, and Onoki when he can use 5 boss summon level elemental attacks simultaneously with infinite chakra. I have to hear you're explanation for this.



Gaara is actually that much weaker outside of a desert and he also doesn't have Shukaku to give him a vast amount of sand.

He only has the sand in his gourd as his primary offense and despite its good defensive capabilities(Blocking Enton) it's hindered by his limited arsenal of sand.

As for Edo Hiruzen, you're right about that so I'll change it.


----------



## Ennoia (Jul 22, 2014)

Feng Shui said:


> Gaara is actually that much weaker outside of a desert and he also doesn't have Shukaku to give him a vast amount of sand.
> 
> He only has the sand in his gourd as his primary offense and despite its good defensive capabilities(Blocking Enton) it's hindered by his limited arsenal of sand.
> 
> As for Edo Hiruzen, you're right about that so I'll change it.



Gaara in canon created a desert in the span of thee panels so in no way is he limited to gourd sand and at no point did I bring up Shukaku. The only time he is limited to gourd sand is if he is fighting on water or some weird construct which isnt a neutral area. What you are saying does not reflect what the manga shows; Gaara is a walking desert and should only be lowered on the bases that it takes three panels to make that desert which I believe is not accurately reflected in your list.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jul 22, 2014)

Butterfly said:


> Well, giant gaping stab wounds didn't stop her nor did Kabuto shredding her muscles. Of course she'll be fine, she assured Shikamaru's dad with her seal earlier before moving.



Undid the Seal as she said it = She is not bluffing. 




> And yet her strength accelerated the process which would have probably taken more time without her strength.



Well there is nothing to disagree with here, though this statement really gets you nowhere. 




> Biologically, it's similar. The databook states death is impossible while using this technique, and that all organs and parts can be regenerated. I am going to assume this includes the brain and the head, because otherwise an exception would likely be noted.



I am not going to waste my time on this on disagreeing. Because even if she could survive, she has no way of continuing the fight. 




> Who was running in one direction to a new location, a luxury most opponents don't have. Not to mention, she could have been aiming for Orochimaru the whole time.



Where he was running does not matter, what does matter is the fact that she couldn't hit him, which means that her speed was inferior to his, even before he took the pill. And I rather doubt it, she knew Oro couldn't do a thing because his arms where sealed, and Kabuto was the only one that was sweating between the two. 



> Check the panel again, Kabuto is facing her direction[1]



No, otherwise his body wouldn't have been positioned that way, it merely shows his face and does not show how he is positioned right before he got hit, so we are to assume that he turned to the side to adjust his glasses. Regardless, he was not looking at her, so my point stands either way. 



> She said she's not unlucky when it comes to her life. That doesn't mean A) she's automatically lucky and B) she's lucky in regards to other people's lives. I mean, after all, Jiraiya died when she won a bet. If you read the chapter, Manda is about to snap his jaws when Tsunade flips the knife over.



I never said she was lucky, but she is not unlucky either, that's all I was trying to show you. Yes, and I call that lucky, that she got there at that exact time he was about to eat Bunta. 




> Because Orochimaru is a canonly observant man who wouldn't stand there.



Orochimaru is a canonically arrogant and cocky guy who likes to fool around during fights as well. I told you, he was caught off guard by the fact that she got over her fear so quickly, there is nothing more to it. If you disagree with this, we can agree to disagree. 




> Tsunade was stabbed in the same area that forced Hiruzen to give up sealing all of Orochimaru.



And..........? 



> Uh, no. I'm bringing up on how a rusty Tsunade was able to outclass a midhigh tier character in Part 1. Not to mention, people consistently bring up that Part 1 Kabuto spanked her, ego she's a terrible combatant. It seems like people just like looking at the pictures and not the words that accompany them, and, even then, sometimes they don't even look at the pictures correctly.



She did not outclass him, she severely struggled with him. She was *slightly * stronger then him, and that's not something you bring up in a Shippuden VS Battle, as even base Ay can beat Part 1 Kabuto. 




> There's no evidence that suggests they had to take a super laborious route to avoid Madara's attacks. Even then, Tsunade's speed still has to be adequate if she's able to kick Madara's susanno before he can even turn around.



The fact that they where like 20m directly behind Madara when you first see them on panel is all the evidence you need. Tsunade's speed is average, I would say that average is adequate , its not bad, its just not good enough to contend with someone who is in the highest tier of speed. 




> No,the attack hit her everywhere, including the face[1]. The wound she healed was from a sword that impaled her through her stomach.



Sure, does this progres your point in any way? 




> What?



Ay decapitates, her, lets say she survives, Ay goes up to her head and crushes it. And no, her head won't regenerate from her body, as the body cannot regenerate without the head being attached to it and giving it commands, this much you have to know at least. If she where to survive decapiation, her only option would be to regenerate her entire body, which would drain her off all her chakra before she where to even complete it (And I am being severally generous with this right now, I am just not in the mood to drag this out to nowhere). If Katsuyu is still there, there will be nothing she can do, Ay can cut her open like butter and take Tsunades head or crush the head before Katsuyu even makes a move. Katsuyu isn't hurting Ay. 




> What? Tsunade's crack was deeper than the Raikage's despite it being only a single finger and it went just as far as the Raikage's crack. The Raikage also had momentum on his side, he was swinging _downward_ just like Tsunade swings her leg[1] anyways. The fact it's even in the same league suggests that her strength is mightier than his.



Its not deeper, the surface that Raikage hit *used* to be flat. And most of the damage was taken by Susano'O as well, it would have been many times deeper and many times larger if Susano'O was not there to tank the majority of the blow. 



> It is the truth though. Orochimaru's attempts to get Tsunade to cooperate through physical force failed. He realized that she could not be submitted to his commands by any means. Granted, he didn't have his arms at the time but also most of his jutsu don't require his arms.



He was also severely sick (A noted by Tsunade), it was not just his arms that where fcked up, his entire body was falling apart and he needed to switch body's shortly after or else death would have ensued. Oro was basically at his death bed at that point. 



> She still healed thousands of people. 80% of ninja weren't out. If that was true, 10 out of the Konoha 12 would have been deployed on a mission. That's why I did the math earleir because your math doesn't make sense. Most of the Jonin were in the village (sans Anko, Yamato, and Gai). They weren't. A lot of Konoha ninja were stationed in there, and most of the people in Konoha are _civilians_, as the First invasion by Orochimaru hinted. Most people in the manga aren't shinobi, we've seen that the classes for Shinboi aren't as wide and several people give up the life before they actually go out on missions.



No, because the Konoha's Ninja are not just composed off Konoha 11. They have like 15, 988 fodders, and Ninja's get set out to missions 24/7. 



> Even if we subtract all of these things, she still relinquished her chakra to save a demolished Konoha which must have healed 3,200 people if we're going by your 20% figure (or 2,200). She's a chakra beast by feats.



Chakra beast, sure, Biju level chakra, no. Ay's V2 Raiton Armour kneeds Biju level chakra just by itself, and he keeps it on constantly among others things. 



> Where's the proof that his heart serves as his brain? .



What else can? Without the brain, you cannot think. His heart does not look like a regular heart either, its obviously had things done to it. The importance of a brain is still the most significant in the manga. 

Kakashi could have easily worked something out if beheading Kakuzu would end it. There's nothing to indicate that would work on any level, especially since it's been drilled over that the only way to defeat him is to target all four masks. 



> Ninja don't usually go for decapitation because it's an entirely difficult thing to do.



Well Ay DOES. Try to show me one scan of him not aiming at the head, there might be two or three, among the many attacks he has thrown, that's not much. Going for decapitation is what Ay does, its entirely his character, go ahead and try to show me his feats and I will doble the amount you show me with going for head shots feats. 



> A didn't go for decapitation against another other opponent aside Killer B anyways. He's almost always uses punching attacks.



You do realize that when I say decapiation I also mean his punches and elbows? Because if he hits you at full speed with a punch to the face, your head will fly either way. 



> Tsunade's regeneration jutsu doesn't seem to require thought. It's an entirely passive ability that targets the cells. There's nothing to indicate she needs to think.



The only way you can prove this if she ever regenerated while being passed out. But since that never happened, good look proving this baseless claim. 




> Because she was already out of chakra and pinned beneath a giant tree? You can't regenerate in space that wouldn't allow for it. How is she going to regenerate the rest of her body when she's underneath a _tree_. I already explained that she also had 4 other kage level ninja with critical injuries to save. She's not going to sacrifice the rest of her chakra to heal herself and then let them die.



She was not out of chakra if she still had her seal and was willing to heal all the Kages. Katsuyu offered to re-attach her body regardless of the tree being on her, so she obviously would have moved her out of the way. 




> Go google body parts and see what it's synonymous with



Parts can mean a ridiculous amount of things. 




> And her body seems perfectly fine with impacts that rupture the entire street.



She has never passed her own physical limit (Only way to do that is with the Gates), that's why. 




> He mistook them for dead and decided it'd be best to fight Naruto instead.



And you don't find it at all fishy that he mistook them for dead despite having the Rinnegan and Sharignan? If they where dead they would have no chakra signature. Like I said, it screams PIS. And I also noticed that when Naruto asks what happened to them, he never says, dead, he says they are probably not alright or not doing so well depending on the translation, which means, he might have even left them alive on purpose, which screams Plot Armour.


----------



## Dominus (Jul 23, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - It's ok, I don't like too much drama. @>@
> - as for battles and over all strength I already stated that will get messy because of that same thing
> and that's why I don't like tier lists because they are all nonsensical no matter how much you try.
> 
> anyway, I find those Kages stronger than Tobirama, you disagree, *it's ok.*



Not sure how it's OK when you judge Tobirama vs. Onoki one way yet you judge Tobirama vs. A the other way.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jul 23, 2014)

Feng Shui said:


> 0.) Prime Hiruzen(hype)
> 1.) Hashirama
> 2.) Minato
> 3.) Tobirama
> ...



Gaara with Shukaku and Desert is clearly above Minato.


----------



## Van Konzen (Jul 24, 2014)

1.Hiruzen 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Prime :ignoramus



2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Raikagenaut
6. Muu
7. Oonoki
8. Trollkage
9. Gaara
10. Tsunade
11. Ei
12. 3rd Kazekage
13. Old Hiruzen
14. Mei
15. Gaara's Dad


----------

