# SK Yhwach vs Isshiki



## Steven (Nov 17, 2022)

Win by any means


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## BossKitten (Nov 17, 2022)

Wait until Bach's anime fight fleshes out his power. At that point there shouldn't be any debate on where he stands.


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## accountmaker (Nov 17, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Wait until Bach's anime fight fleshes out his power. At that point there shouldn't be any debate on where he stands.


Under Isshiki's heel

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 17, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Under Isshiki's heel



Wait until universal Bach is confirmed to be a real thing.

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## LazyWaka (Nov 17, 2022)

I don't think anyone gives enough of a fuck about Boruto to defend Isshiki, so you could probably get away with mustache winning now.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 17, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> I don't think anyone gives enough of a fuck about *Boruto* to defend Isshiki, so you could probably get away with mustache winning now.



I was wondering why I couldn't think of who dude was, lol. Just had to trend lightly because it sounded like a Naruto character.


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## Rift (Nov 17, 2022)

Isshiki gets folded.


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## accountmaker (Nov 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Wait until universal Bach is confirmed to be a real thing.


Until then, ishiki uses Yawhack as a surfboard


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## Steven (Nov 18, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> I don't think anyone gives enough of a fuck about Boruto to defend Isshiki, so you could probably get away with mustache winning now.


Boruto at least has now the Alien God Shinba or whatever his name is

Reactions: MAXIMUM 2


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## accountmaker (Nov 18, 2022)

Steven said:


> Boruto at least has now the Alien God Shinba or whatever his name is


what the fuck

Reactions: Funny 10 | MAXIMUM 1


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## Steven (Nov 18, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> what the fuck


Its from the newest Chapter.Shinba is now canonly the strongest being in the show.The Otsutsuki God

Dude has Byakugan and Rinne-Sharingan.Like Kaguya

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 18, 2022)

Steven said:


> Its from the newest Chapter.Shinba is now canonly the strongest being in the show.The Otsutsuki God
> 
> Dude has Byakugan and Rinne-Sharingan.Like Kaguya


What the hell?

also on topic Yhwach has precog and can alter futures where he dies. And chose futures to bring into reality.

It’s stupidly broken for OBd shit and NLF city.

A planet level beam to the head won’t put him down for good at all anyway, if he’s planet level from the thread in the meta section he ends up winning I guess?


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## Astaro (Nov 18, 2022)

Yhwach wins by default since no one gives a damn to argue for the Ootsutsuki jobber at this point

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Casval Rem Aznable (Nov 18, 2022)

Yhwach solos Boruto verse.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Steven (Nov 18, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> What the hell?


What?Hes now the new benchmark of the verse,not Kaguya anymore.The Cyborg Kids countains a bit of his power

Kind of like the Dark Masters got their power from Apocalymon.Looking at how the verse works,i guess some DNA stuff like Hashirama cells


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## LazyWaka (Nov 18, 2022)

You say that but boruto powerscaling is beyond fucked.

Never mind that his hype is ass.

"With a wave of his hand he can cause massive gusts and with a shout he could create lighting".

Fucking ch1 nine tails hype shits on that.

Reactions: Funny 12


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## Steven (Nov 18, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> You say that but boruto powerscaling is beyond fucked.


NOBODY disagrees with that.The feats in that verse suxs


LazyWaka said:


> "With a wave of his hand he can cause massive gusts and with a shout he could create lighting".


Is that made by you or is this his "hype" from the new Chapter?


LazyWaka said:


> Fucking ch1 nine tails hype shits on that.


Well,no Bijuudamas=no good stuff.All big Jutsus got deleted


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## OtherGalaxy (Nov 18, 2022)

amazing how even at its worst bleach still looks leagues better than boruto

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 9


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## LazyWaka (Nov 18, 2022)

Steven said:


> NOBODY disagrees with that.The feats in that verse suxs
> 
> Is that made by you or is this his "hype" from the new Chapter?
> 
> Well,no Bijuudamas=no good stuff.All big Jutsus got deleted



According to the spoilers that's how Amado is hyping him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 18, 2022)

didn't one of the major villains in boruto get killed by burning to death in normal ass fire lol


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## Steven (Nov 18, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> According to the spoilers that's how Amado is hyping him.


Saw it rn

"Amado describes some of Shibai Ōtsutsuki's abilties, such as "they say that when he swung his arm, he created a wind-storm (Gale/Fūton) and when he let out a scream, he created a thunder-storm as if it were lightning (Raiton)." Amado: "Frightening abilities"

Wow,if thats the hype for him,i legit question myself if Boruto era scales to Naruto era.Because the show lags in every aspect

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Astaro (Nov 18, 2022)

Rift said:


> didn't one of the major villains in boruto get killed by burning to death in normal ass fire lol


Didn’t die from it but it forced Jigen to go into his true Isshiki self early or it would have killed him since it was ordinary, natural fire that he couldn’t absorb like Ninjutsu

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Astaro (Nov 18, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> amazing how even at its worst bleach still looks leagues better than boruto


To be fair, that’s a pretty low standard to beat

Really says something when even the slog that is current MHA is still more interesting and engaging than Boruto


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## Rift (Nov 18, 2022)

Astaro said:


> Didn’t die from it but it forced Jigen to go into his true Isshiki self early or it would have killed him since it was ordinary, natural fire that he couldn’t absorb like Ninjutsu


Sub building level Boruto.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Astaro (Nov 18, 2022)

Rift said:


> Sub building level Boruto.


Just drop a nuclear bomb not made of chakra.

That'll take care of the entire Ootsutsuki invasion

Reactions: Funny 4


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 18, 2022)

Astaro said:


> Didn’t die from it but it forced Jigen to go into his true Isshiki self early or it would have killed him since it was ordinary, natural fire that he couldn’t absorb like Ninjutsu


If energy was not equal, my man would get oneshot by Shikai Yama or Bazz B.

Normal fire not even past a couple 1,000c if I had to guess as a highball.

Reminds me of Big Mom and Kaidou with that Magma.

Was that confirmed to have fucked them up?


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## BossKitten (Nov 18, 2022)

Steven said:


> Boruto at least has now the Alien God Shinba or whatever his name is



Does the Byakugan actually do anything now, or do all these gods have if because of the swag?


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## LazyWaka (Nov 18, 2022)

So far they seem to only have it because it makes them look more like aliens.


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## shieldbounce (Nov 18, 2022)

Boruto potentially trying to go places with the aliens and hints and new powers and abilities with the whole "alien god thing".


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## BossKitten (Nov 18, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> So far they seem to only have it because it makes them look more like aliens.



Ah, it was my favorite dojutsu. Hoped it would get some kind of shine.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 18, 2022)

Sadly it's treated more as an esthetic. And even on the rare occasion they do make use of it they are horrifically incompetent and miss shit that part 1 neji would have easily spotted.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Steven (Nov 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Does the Byakugan actually do anything now, or do all these gods have if because of the swag?


Most likely still irrelevant because the Rinnegan is the strongest Doujutsu and the Sharingan is more popular and also stronger.

Kishi is not wasting his time with the Byakugan.Not even the Rinnegan got decent feats in Boruto.Pain/Nagato performed better with it.No Jutsus at all

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Boruto (Nov 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Does the Byakugan actually do anything now, or do all these gods have if because of the swag?


No. Actually, it just got shat on even worse than in Naruto. It's not even used in the few cases where it could be useful. Isshiki tries finding Kawaki while hovering over the village, but gives up and says it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack or something...when that's exactly what Byakugan is useful for. Sasuke later negs his Byakugan's vision by using some special smoke bomb that blocks it. 

Also, Boruto awakened the Byakugan in one of his eyes because of Karma, but of course, it served as nothing but decoration. Only thing that might be a positive for the Byakugan is that Momoshiki has a limited form of future sight that he apparently uses through it.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## BossKitten (Nov 18, 2022)

Wow, I'm glad I have up hope for the Hyuuga then

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sagebee (Nov 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Wow, I'm glad I have up hope for the Hyuuga then


The byakugans been expanded 

In naruto the last it can evolve into a tenseigan 

And momo has shown he might be able to see fate with his byakugan 

So the byakugan is definitely getting expanded


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## Yumi Zoro (Nov 18, 2022)

Steven said:


> Saw it rn
> 
> "Amado describes some of Shibai Ōtsutsuki's abilties, such as "they say that when he swung his arm, he created a wind-storm (Gale/Fūton) and when he let out a scream, he created a thunder-storm as if it were lightning (Raiton)." Amado: "Frightening abilities"
> 
> Wow,if thats the hype for him,i legit question myself if Boruto era scales to Naruto era.Because the show lags in every aspect




Should have Say with a swung of his arms he can disolves stars and with his Scream create black Holes.

That would be hype.

But that is too much to Ask for the boruto writer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Nov 18, 2022)

There IS no way Naruto and Sasuke vs Ishiki  wouldnt result in the destruction of a planet or at least have multi continental level destruction with the way Kishi was writting the story with Otsutsuki.

WE barely got even montains level feat from that fight and it suck.

By hype Isshiki is Kaguya + level but feat wise he aren't even Nagato level.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## BossKitten (Nov 18, 2022)

Sagebee said:


> The byakugans been expanded
> 
> In naruto the last it can evolve into a tenseigan
> 
> ...



That's something I guess. I just wish Kishi didn't do Neji so dirty. Would have been cool to see him live up to being a prodigy and take the byakugan to new heights.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Rift (Nov 18, 2022)

A lot of things could have been better if Kishi didn't make the manga the Naruto and Sasuke show.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Winner 1


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## JayDox (Nov 18, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Ah, it was my favorite dojutsu. Hoped it would get some kind of shine.


Future sight has been confirmed this chapter. Bolt saw the future.

And those flames weren't normal flames. They can't be put out by water either and outburn flames that burn faster than regen


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## JayDox (Nov 18, 2022)

Yumi Zoro said:


> There IS no way Naruto and Sasuke vs Ishiki  wouldnt result in the destruction of a planet or at least have multi continental level destruction with the way Kishi was writting the story with Otsutsuki.
> 
> WE barely got even montains level feat from that fight and it suck.
> 
> By hype Isshiki is Kaguya + level but feat wise he aren't even Nagato level.


Stronger characters having lesser feats has always been a thing in the verse. Deidara said Sasori was stronger. Hiruzen was supposed to be stronger than Ohnoki etc.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Steven (Nov 18, 2022)

Yumi Zoro said:


> There IS no way Naruto and Sasuke vs Ishiki wouldnt result in the destruction of a planet or at least have multi continental level destruction with the way Kishi was writting the story with Otsutsuki.


Toneri is fodder and featwise he shits on Isshiki

Fuck,even Tendo Pain has better feats


JayDox said:


> Deidara said Sasori was stronger


I still dont buy it.No way in hell does Sasori wins against Deidara.Especially when Deidara is in the air


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 18, 2022)

Seems to be a lot of shitting on Boruto, I jumped off at the end of Naruto so I thought they would end up powercreeping way out of Bleach range.

So what does Isshiki actually get?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## JayDox (Nov 18, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Seems to be a lot of shitting on Boruto, I jumped off at the end of Naruto so I thought they would end up powercreeping way out of Bleach range.
> 
> So what does Isshiki actually get?


Just a massive stats disparity with Naruto and Sasuke (One shot Kurama Avatar and Perfect Susanoo )and can insta shrink anything that isn't a living thing.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Alita (Nov 19, 2022)

Isshiki stomps.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## JayDox (Nov 19, 2022)

Since they are both planet level I doubt it's a stomp either way. Yeehaw can resurrect himself can't he? Plus the Almighty


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## BossKitten (Nov 19, 2022)

JayDox said:


> Since they are both planet level I doubt it's a stomp either way. Yeehaw can resurrect himself can't he? Plus the Almighty



Yeah. For Isshiki to win, there would have to be no possible future where Bach can kill him. I highly doubt Isshiki is in THAT ballpark.


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## Rift (Nov 19, 2022)

Yhwach's hax alone is way too much for anyone in Boruto/Naruto to handle.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Capa13 (Nov 19, 2022)

Rift said:


> didn't one of the major villains in boruto get killed by burning to death in normal ass fire lol


Terrible lack of context. That major villain was living as a microscopic sized parasite inside the ear canal of a regular ass monk dude and couldn’t use anywhere near his actual power and couldn’t even use his super nerfed power for more than 5 minutes without nearly disintegrating the monk’s body. He was only living off of consuming the body of the monk and had volcanic flames summoned beneath him which was killing the monks body and thus killing him. The second he is as forced to ressurect and actually take control of the monks body by transplanting his power and soul into the body, he absolutely neg diff fodder stomper the same guy in a fraction of a second.

Keep in mind the “nerfed monk controlling” version of this villain at a fraction of his true power was casually trolling and slaughtering Naruto and Sasuke at the exact same time while laughing and taking absolutely 0 damage. The same Naruto and Sasuke who are both individually planetary at minimum.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 19, 2022)

planet level

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sir Cool Blizzard (Nov 20, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> Terrible lack of context. That major villain was living as a microscopic sized parasite inside the ear canal of a regular ass monk dude and couldn’t use anywhere near his actual power and couldn’t even use his super nerfed power for more than 5 minutes without nearly disintegrating the monk’s body. He was only living off of consuming the body of the monk and had volcanic flames summoned beneath him which was killing the monks body and thus killing him. The second he is as forced to ressurect and actually take control of the monks body by transplanting his power and soul into the body, he absolutely neg diff fodder stomper the same guy in a fraction of a second.
> 
> Keep in mind the “nerfed monk controlling” version of this villain at a fraction of his true power was casually trolling and slaughtering Naruto and Sasuke at the exact same time while laughing and taking absolutely 0 damage. The same Naruto and Sasuke who are both individually planetary at minimum.


They were also special flames, not regular fire. Lmao

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Capa13 (Nov 20, 2022)

Sir Cool Blizzard said:


> They were also special flames, not regular fire. Lmao


Literally. People just hate and downplay series/characters they don’t like simply because they don’t like them. Like they will literally ignore facts. It’s like saying that “Hitler never held any form of power whatsoever” just because Hitler was an evil piece of shit that everybody hates? Like what!?

Reactions: Like 1


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## kayz (Nov 20, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> You say that but boruto powerscaling is beyond fucked.
> 
> Never mind that his hype is ass.
> 
> ...


His greatest hype is transcending the physical dimension into a higher dimension. Essentially, could make him a 4d character the way Kishi is going. He's alive, just currently not in the Narutoverse's physical universe, therefore not bound by the limitations of the physical universe like time, space, gravity etc.

And the fact he was capable of using all shinjutsu (Otsutsuki techniques) while in the physical universe

Reactions: Like 1


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## LazyWaka (Nov 20, 2022)

I mean, bleach pulled the "transcended to a higher dimension" card to but most here don't give a darn.

EDIT: the hell is with the censorship on this forum!?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## kayz (Nov 20, 2022)

Sir Cool Blizzard said:


> They were also special flames, not regular fire. Lmao


Yeah, summoned from another dimension, probably. The only reason Jigen died was that he ran out of chakra making him basically a lifeless body.


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## Asura barracuda (Nov 20, 2022)

Isshiki is not planet level.


The only thing stated in Boruto with the ability to threaten or destroy a world is the ten tails itself/divine tree.



There's no fucking way Isshiki can destroy a planet, can't even level Konoha with his strongest Jutsu.




Ywach negs the fodder to oblivion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Imagine (Nov 20, 2022)

Madara already has a planet level feat and Toneri split the moon at high speeds, yeah he'd be planet level.


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## Imagine (Nov 20, 2022)

My bad, not Madara but Toneri's feat is planet level


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## LazyWaka (Nov 20, 2022)

The moon split wasn't that impressive actually.


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## Imagine (Nov 20, 2022)

Thought Y'all had it in yatta?


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## shieldbounce (Nov 20, 2022)

Imagine said:


> Madara already has a planet level feat and Toneri split the moon at high speeds, yeah he'd be planet level.


That Moon splitting feat may need to be looked at again. Wasn't the Moon supposed to be hollowed out since there was city inside of it (implying that it was developed inside the reverse-end of the crust)?

For Madara? Did his Chibaku Tensei get re-calced again or is this based on him being scaled to someone else?

@Asura barracuda He scales to the god tiers such as Kaguya and Hagoromo, so depending on where a calc of their best feat(s) place them at, Isshiki should easily scale to that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Imagine (Nov 20, 2022)

shieldbounce said:


> That Moon splitting feat may need to be looked at again. Wasn't the Moon supposed to be hollowed out since there was city inside of it (implying that it was developed inside the reverse-end of the crust)?
> 
> For Madara? Did his Chibaku Tensei get re-calced again or is this based on him being scaled to someone else?


I had the calcs mixed up. Whatever they calcs was in the yattatons


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## kayz (Nov 20, 2022)

shieldbounce said:


> That Moon splitting feat may need to be looked at again. Wasn't the Moon supposed to be hollowed out since there was city inside of it (implying that it was developed inside the reverse-end of the crust)?
> 
> For Madara? Did his Chibaku Tensei get re-calced again or is this based on him being scaled to someone else?


The calc already accounted for the hollowness. The split was calculate at moon+ level

Accelerating the moon towards the earth was calculated at _*planet level*_ due to the Narutoverse earth's and by extension, the moon's larger size


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## kayz (Nov 20, 2022)

To be honest, in my opinion, the moon was not hollowed but terraformed, and therefore should retain the same mass.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 20, 2022)

Imagine said:


> Thought Y'all had it in yatta?



That was from moving the moon. Not splitting it.



kayz said:


> To be honest, in my opinion, the moon was not hollowed but terraformed, and therefore should retain the same mass.



That terraformed area was in a space inside the moon. It might not be as hollow as we are estimating, but it still objectively has a hollow spot in it.


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## Imagine (Nov 20, 2022)

Stfu Waka I'm right sorta kinda


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## shieldbounce (Nov 20, 2022)

kayz said:


> The split was calculate at moon+ level


I remember getting a similar result for the moon split, but I may have done that moon split calc wrong because let's just say...

if the kinetic energy of the split was actually Moon+ levels then the two halves of the Moon would split apart continuously. Since the results of the calc exceeded the Moon's gravitational binding energy, it would mean that the two halves of the Moon would continue to drift away, but instead...the Moon remained mostly intact  

The results of the calc exceed what was shown in the screen after the split, is what I'm trying to argue for. There should be a more accurate method of calculating that feat, but not now.


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## kayz (Nov 20, 2022)

shieldbounce said:


> I remember getting a similar result for the moon split, but I may have done that moon split calc wrong because let's just say...
> 
> if the kinetic energy of the split was actually Moon+ levels then the two halves of the Moon would split apart continuously. Since the results of the calc exceeded the Moon's gravitational binding energy, it would mean that the two halves of the Moon would continue to drift away, but instead...the Moon remained mostly intact
> 
> The results of the calc exceed what was shown in the screen after the split, is what I'm trying to argue for. There should be a more accurate method of calculating that feat, but not now.


Yeah, but it can be argued that Toneri manipulated the moon halves back together since his goal was crashing it on the earth


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## kayz (Nov 20, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> That was from moving the moon. Not splitting it.
> 
> 
> 
> That terraformed area was in a space inside the moon. It might not be as hollow as we are estimating, but it still objectively has a hollow spot in it.


I'm not denying a hollow space. It's just that people think that the hollowed-out mass was vaporized into thin air, while it could have just been transferred and spread thinly on the surface of the moon.


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## shieldbounce (Nov 20, 2022)

kayz said:


> while it could have just been transferred and spread thinly on the surface of the moon.


That's what happened during the moon slice. The slicing of the Moon was a physical attack based on kinetic energy, as after the slash of the moon was done, the two halves of the moon immediately spread themselves outwards a distance.

The energy generated from the attack transferred from the slash to the two halves, causing the two halves to move away from each other.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 20, 2022)

I don't think the split was moon+ anyway. It came out to around like 29 exatons iirc which is baseline moon level.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 20, 2022)

I think the sheer lack of interest in Boruto is depowering Isshiki both in this fight and canonically.

I just read through this whole thread. There are more posts talking individually about Neji, Kawaki, Madara, Toneri, and Kaguya than Isshiki......

Reactions: Funny 1


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## shieldbounce (Nov 20, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I think the sheer lack of interest in Boruto is depowering Isshiki both in this fight and canonically.
> 
> I just read through this whole thread. There are more posts talking individually about Neji, Kawaki, Madara, Toneri, and Kaguya than Isshiki......


When the sequel is so sloppily done in every way such that its prequel dwarfs it completely, it's almost obvious to see why the interest in Boruto isn't all there...if not completely nonexistent except for the most hardcore of Naruto fanatics that are still alive.

Granted, I used to be one of them, except that Boruto never caught my attention at all and I'm just waiting until that series finishes, which is going to take forever.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 20, 2022)

shieldbounce said:


> When the sequel is so sloppily done in every way such that its prequel dwarfs it completely, it's almost obvious to see why the interest in Boruto isn't all there...if not completely nonexistent except for the most hardcore of Naruto fanatics that are still alive.
> 
> Granted, I used to be one of them, except that Boruto never caught my attention at all and I'm just waiting until that series finishes, which is going to take forever.



Same, just waiting for it to end, not following it but more than VAGUELY. Not really sure what happens then, dunno if the conversations for Naruto will die off entirely, if a new less crappy series will start, or if the community on here will continue strong with no new content. But for me, Naruto ended with Shippuuden. Boruto is basically a really sus wiki edited data book to me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Kingdom Come (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I think the sheer lack of interest in Boruto is depowering Isshiki both in this fight and canonically.
> 
> I just read through this whole thread. There are more posts talking individually about Neji, Kawaki, Madara, Toneri, and Kaguya than Isshiki......


Boruto was never an interesting Series
Not to mention the art…

Reactions: Agree 1


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I think the sheer lack of interest in Boruto is depowering Isshiki both in this fight and canonically.
> 
> I just read through this whole thread. There are more posts talking individually about Neji, Kawaki, Madara, Toneri, and Kaguya than Isshiki......


Because Boruto's feats are scaled down, so it benefits from Shippuden's already established feats.

Isshiki's feats are no different than Shippuden's high tiers in terms of scale but benefits via scaling to Shippuden's strongest god tiers.


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> I don't think the split was moon+ anyway. It came out to around like 29 exatons iirc which is baseline moon level.


There was another user that got it to 200 exatons. Don't remember if it was accepted.


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## MShadows (Nov 21, 2022)

Sankt Altar GG

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Steven (Nov 21, 2022)

Alita said:


> Isshiki stomps.


Yhwach is Planetlevel while Isshiki MIGHT Planetlevel if you close one eye.I fail to see how Isshiki stomps

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Alita (Nov 21, 2022)

Steven said:


> Yhwach is Planetlevel while Isshiki MIGHT Planetlevel if you close one eye.I fail to see how Isshiki stomps



Even if we say yhwach is planet level (Which I don't agree with since his statement was vague and could mean many different things.) it wouldn't be to the same extent as isshiki. Toneri's moon moving feat was over 900 zettatons and approaching large planet level in terms of energy. There is no reason to just randomly put yhwach at that exact same level based on a statement. The more sensible thing to do is put him at the baseline of planet level for a low end which would be 57 zettatons which is more than 10 times below that. Isshiki is also faster as well (Relativistic vs sub relativistic.).


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

Does the speed factor in much when Yhwach can just alter the future so that Isshiki fucks up all the time?

A is bullshit after all.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

Alita said:


> Even if we say yhwach is planet level (Which I don't agree with since his statement was vague and could mean many different things.) it wouldn't be to the same extent as isshiki. Toneri's moon moving feat was over 900 zettatons and approaching large planet level in terms of energy. There is no reason to just randomly put yhwach at that exact same level based on a statement. The more sensible thing to do is put him at the baseline of planet level for a low end which would be 57 zettatons which is more than 10 times below that. Isshiki is also faster as well (Relativistic vs sub relativistic.).




What? Yhwach absolutely *for sure* scales above planetary.

We see him literally *unmaking* soul society as an act of will at the end of the series. Even just a fraction of power would be planetary in the form of Gremmy.


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## OtherGalaxy (Nov 21, 2022)

what the fuck has gremmy ever done that was planetary

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> what the fuck has gremmy ever done that was planetary


I don't mean in the literal sense of him performing a planetary feat, although the meteor summon probably comes close. Factor in he could just summon 1000 more meteors and you get over planetary very quickly. If for some reason you don't think he could summon 1000 meteors, he can make 1000 copies of himself that can. Still hitting planetary or above.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I don't mean in the literal sense of him performing a planetary feat, although the meteor summon probably comes close. Factor in he could just summon 1000 more meteors and you get over planetary very quickly. If for some reason you don't think he could summon 1000 meteors, he can make 1000 copies of himself that can. Still hitting planetary or above.


Second one is NLF

He could summon another meteor.

However we never saw him do it with more than two clones, obviously a 6 clone imagination power meteor would be stronger, but it can’t be quantified, since he never made it.


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I don't mean in the literal sense of him performing a planetary feat, although the meteor summon probably comes close. Factor in he could just summon 1000 more meteors and you get over planetary very quickly. If for some reason you don't think he could summon 1000 meteors, *he can make 1000 copies of* *himself that can.* Still hitting planetary or above.


Can you say for certain he can get to that number without a mental collapse?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> Can you say for certain he can get to that number without a mental collapse?


No way. He can max at out the clones used for Galaxy Room. Anything beyond what he showed is pure spitballing and assumption.

He could make a 6 clone meteor which would be >>> 2 clone, but that’s it. Or maybe drop three equally sized meteors.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> Can you say for certain he can get to that number without a mental collapse?


Since mental collapse was never a factor, I am not really going to consider it one now.


WhiskeyThan said:


> Second one is NLF
> 
> He could summon another meteor.
> 
> However we never saw him do it with more than two clones, obviously a 6 clone imagination power meteor would be stronger, but it can’t be quantified, since he never made it.



I mean... It kind of is NLF, I get your point. But each copy of Gremmy is a fully functional copy with all of his powers, attention span, and focus. If he can maintain ONE copy of himself, and do anything else, each one could do the same. It KIND OF IS NLF like you said, but it's also straightly logical at the same time largely because there wouldn't be a need to apply a limit anywhere to this chain.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> No way. He can max at out the clones used for Galaxy Room. Anything beyond what he showed is pure spitballing and assumption.
> 
> He could make a 6 clone meteor which would be >>> 2 clone, but that’s it. Or maybe drop three equally sized meteors.



Even if we apply that limit, I am pretty sure a 6x meteor of the size we saw would still qualify as a planetary feat. Especially when factoring he didn't just move any object but actually created it from nothing.


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Since mental collapse was never a factor, I am not really going to consider it one now.


Exactly. Even the 1000 clones you are postulating were never a factor in the manga. Because it would have been logical to use that.


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## Qinglong (Nov 21, 2022)

x6 gremmy meteor would be lucky to break moon level


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> Exactly. Even the 1000 clones you are postulating were never a factor in the manga. Because it would have been logical to use that.


Where would it come from? Each clone is only exerting the strain of maintaining one clone plus summoning a meteor. We have already seen that the only limit of his power his ability to split his attention, but that gets limited by the fact that each gremmy is *real* for all intents and purposes and splits that mental load for him.

It's really obvious the sternritters powers aren't based on a set amount of reishi or anything. X Axis is a pretty clear indicator that Yhwach blesses them with "absolute" powers, that do precisely what they say they do, regardless of power level.

Honestly, I think I could make a strong case he wouldn't need to make clones because he wouldn't need to split his attention to destroy the earth. His power seems to work entirely off of imagination with scale only being factored based on his will.


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## Piecesis (Nov 21, 2022)

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Ywach just die in every future he makes, so in the end he just dies no matter what happens. I don't see what's so great about that.


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Where would it come from? Each clone is only exerting the strain of maintaining one clone plus summoning a meteor. We have already seen that the only limit of his power his ability to split his attention, but that gets limited by the fact that each gremmy is *real* for all intents and purposes and splits that mental load for him.
> 
> It's really obvious the sternritters powers aren't based on a set amount of reishi or anything. X Axis is a pretty clear indicator that Yhwach blesses them with "absolute" powers, that do precisely what they say they do, regardless of power level.
> 
> Honestly, I think I could make a strong case he wouldn't need to make clones because he wouldn't need to split his attention to destroy the earth. His power seems to work entirely off of imagination with scale only being factored based on his will.


Why stop at 1000? He can as well make an infinite number thereby collapsing the universe


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> Why stop at 1000? He can as well make an infinite number thereby collapsing the universe


Yah. Gremmy was broken and Kubo didn't think that through well lol. Or he did and just intended him to be a dumb character. It actually fit that he wasn't very creative, he never needed to be. I can't tell if it's really bad power writing or really good character writing.


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## Alita (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> What? Yhwach absolutely *for sure* scales above planetary.
> 
> We see him literally *unmaking* soul society as an act of will at the end of the series. Even just a fraction of power would be planetary in the form of Gremmy.



Again that doesn't mean you can just magically slap the same number on him that toneri is sitting at especially without a quantifiable calculation. Most you could say with a vague statement is that he is unquantifiably above baseline planet level with is still well below toneri let alone isshiki.

And gremmy is now where close to planet level.


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

There's nothing vague about it, Yhwach said he was going to destroy all the realms with his own power, Kubo drew multiple sketches of dozens of planets(and a galaxy) crumbling at the end of the final chapters.  To say that he's anything less than multi planetary at bare minimum is asinine.  Not to mention that even with even stats Yhwach shits on Isshiki so hard hax wise that there's nothing he could do.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

*Spoiler*: __ 










I mean the man literally has a bunch of planets crumbling to form the word despair


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

Rift said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


look like pebbles tbh. pebble level yhwach?


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> look like pebbles tbh. pebble level yhwach?


I know you're trying to be funny but it's pretty hard to miss the rings.


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

Rift said:


> I know you're trying to be funny but it's pretty hard to miss the rings.


OH SHIT SPINNING PEBBLE LEVEL GODDAMN

Reactions: Funny 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

Guys
Guys
Yhwach can telekinetically control small rocks


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Yah. Gremmy was broken and Kubo didn't think that through well lol. Or he did and just intended him to be a dumb character. It actually fit that he wasn't very creative, he never needed to be. I can't tell if it's really bad power writing or really good character writing.


There are many inconsistencies and de-hype in Gremmy's ability that "being dumb" just isn't enough as a weakness, IMO. 

The fact his reality warp can be stopped from occurring by just muscling it away as Kenpachi did so many times.

If Gremmy could in theory get powerful with no limit, wouldn't Yhwach (who shouldn't be dumb) use that to his benefit and win the war, rather than go through all that trouble of invasion?


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

yhwach rn


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## Boruto (Nov 21, 2022)

Rift said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kubo would have made Clorox enjoyers' lives a lot easier if he just properly drew these in a chapter, huh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

the absolute state of the ohbeedee

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> There are many inconsistencies and de-hype in Gremmy's ability that "being dumb" just isn't enough as a weakness, IMO.
> 
> The fact his reality warp can be stopped from occurring by just muscling it away as Kenpachi did so many times.
> 
> If Gremmy could in theory get powerful with no limit, wouldn't Yhwach (who shouldn't be dumb) use that to his benefit and win the war, rather than go through all that trouble of invasion?



I mean... IMO Kubo isn't super smart. He is super creative, but not super smart. We can imagine reasons why he couldn't do that all day but the amount of TIMES you have to make up limits to cover bad decisions in bleach gets really rough.

Why does Aizen ever physically fight anyone? Why not show Ichigo your shikai activation? Why kill everyone in central 46 if you can force everyone to perceive the orders you want anyway? Why does Aizen never use Bankai?

WHY EVEN LEAVE SOUL SOCIETY? NO CAN DETECT HIM.

Why ever even unveil yourself as a villain, or fake your own death? He literally could have just... Not done any of that.

Why even bother with the fake execution order for Rukia? He could have just walked up to her cell, walked in ripped out the hogyoku, and walked back to his barracks, no one would have seen it happen.

The answer to all of these is that Kubo designs really cool powers but he isn't very smart when it comes to implementation of them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

Gremmy was locked in a basement for his whole life, so his imagination was stunted + he wanted a proper battle with raw power.  It's not that deep.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

Rift said:


> Gremmy was locked in a basement for his whole life, so his imagination was stunted + he wanted a proper battle with raw power.  It's not that deep.


But this shouldn't affect the strength of his imagination.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> But this shouldn't affect the strength of his imagination.


It ABSOLUTELY would. Not being exposed to the world, books, movies, just physical experiences.


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## shieldbounce (Nov 21, 2022)

If this discussion is turning into Gremmy's meteor feat, just remember that it took him and a clone of himself to perform a meteor feat that was threatening to destroy Seireitei, albeit that meteor was almost near the size of Seireitei (so the actual size of the meteor could be pretty huge).

Depending on the size of Seireitei and whether statements regarding its size should be taken literally, the meteor feat could yield impressive results.

*Spoiler*: __ 



and if it gets animated there could be a timeframe that can be used for the meteor


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> It ABSOLUTELY would. Not being exposed to the world, books, movies, just physical experiences.


Not the point. But let's not exaggerate. Gremmy has enough experience for guns, meteors, clones, outer-space, etc.

The point is his failure to imagine anything stronger than Kenpachi.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> Not the point. But let's not exaggerate. Gremmy has enough experience for guns, meteors, clones, outer-space, etc.
> 
> The point is his failure to imagine anything stronger than Kenpachi.



Why would he need to when he could just imagine Kenpachi's bones are cookies? He already did it to Yachiru who IS Kenpachi's Reiatsu personified, so we know it isn't a restriction of power levels.

Again, Kubo is extremely creative, but not very smart. He couldn't explain that so he ignored it.


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## Steven (Nov 21, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> what the fuck has gremmy ever done that was planetary


Meteor had Planetsize

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Steven (Nov 21, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Guys
> Guys
> Yhwach can telekinetically control small rocks


So,better as Isshikis wood tier AP

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Asura barracuda (Nov 21, 2022)

_*So let me guess.


Isshikis cement pillars can destroy a continent or some shit, probably multiple continents.



Isshikis black rods can also destroy a continent.



Isshikis can also shrink down a planet or some shit.



Isshiki can also destroy a planet or continent with his kicks.


Man, I've been reading Boruto backwards all along.





Two Piece, the Boruto version is lit as fuck.
 
*_

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

SK Yhwach fold him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

Yooo, is it really that fucking bad?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Asura barracuda (Nov 21, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Yooo, is it really that fucking bad?




Bad is an understatement of epic proportions.


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

Almighty allows him to manipulate any potential futures and make it a reality.

It's basically both overpowered future precognition + future/fate manipulation hax.

For example, he can attack him in the future where he isn't on his guard, and the damage will instantly come in the present, he can basically do whatever he wants in the future, it's a weird ability to determine where its limits stands.

Even if Yhwach was under an ability or power, he can negate it via manipulate the future on a timeline where he wasn't touched by this ability, that is how he escaped and negated Ichibei's name manipulation bankai where he was literally the equivalent of an ant in power.

And whatever Yhwach destroy with the Almighty cannot be restored or regenerated as Orihime with her causality manipulation couldn't do shit because Ichigo's bankai was destroyed in all timelines, only creating a past where it never happened saved him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

Akira1993 said:


> Almighty allows him to manipulate any potential futures and make it a reality.
> 
> It's basically both overpowered future precognition + future/fate manipulation hax.
> 
> ...


To put it in simpler terms, if there exists even the slightest possibility of Yhwach beating you, as in a 0.0001% chance, then he beats you.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

You basically have to be either so fast/strong he can’t react to alter or perceive futures before he is dead (or just be so strong he has an exact 0% wincon in any future), or have KS level illusion feats to trick him.

Aizen literally made Yhwach perceive the infinite number of futures he can choose incorrectly. Shit is nuts and I don’t know if Genjutsu could replicate it.


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

I also want to point out that he was defeated and killed when the Almighty was turn off, meaning it was night impossible for Ichigo and company to beat when his Almighty is activated.

Only plot hole was the arrow, he technically should be able to see it coming and destroy via future manipulation.

Only way for Kubo to save face on that plot hole arrow is to reveal that for some reason, Yhwach can't see Ishida's future like Mimihagi and the Soul King, that his power doesn't work on him like with his Auswallen.

Let's see how the anime handles that part.


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

Akira1993 said:


> I also want to point out that he was defeated and killed when the Almighty was turn off, meaning it was night impossible for Ichigo and company to beat when his Almighty is activated.
> 
> Only plot hole was the arrow, he technically should be able to see it coming and destroy via future manipulation.
> 
> ...


It's because he mistook the vision he had of his own death as a dream and disregarded it, it was an oversight on his part.  Arrogance.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> You basically have to be either so fast/strong he can’t react to alter or perceive futures before he is dead (or just be so strong he has an exact 0% wincon in any future), or have KS level illusion feats to trick him.
> 
> Aizen literally made Yhwach perceive the infinite number of futures he can choose incorrectly. Shit is nuts and I don’t know if Genjutsu could replicate it.


But he was blitzed and killed by Ichigo's surprise attack, that didn't stop him from coming via the Almighty by changing the future.

And as soon as Yhwach figured out KS illusions, it didn't work anymore on him and he absorbed Aizen.


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

Rift said:


> It's because he mistook the vision he had of his own death as a dream and disregarded it, it was an oversight on his part.  Arrogance.


Oh yeah that is right, that was the correct future and he disregarded that one as a dream.

Nice catch, I forgot that part.

Reactions: Like 2


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

Akira1993 said:


> But he was blitzed and killed by Ichigo's surprise attack, that didn't stop him from coming via the Almighty by changing the future.


It’s not a blitz for the first one, Ks literally made Ichigo imperceptible. Can’t blitz someone not aware of you. He became aware after being stabbed I think. 


Akira1993 said:


> And as soon as Yhwach figured out KS illusions, it didn't work anymore on him and he absorbed Aizen.


He didn’t figure them out, Aizen de-activated it either due to being caught off guard or energy. Yhwach states that himself.


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## JayK (Nov 21, 2022)

OtherGalaxy said:


> amazing how even at its worst bleach still looks leagues better than boruto


My little sister could draw better than whatever turd Boruto is supposed to be back when she was 8.

Connections are unfortunately more important than actual talent just like in every other branch.

-

Also iirc Shibai has a Jogan. Byakugan has been useless since its very introduction.


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> You basically have to be either so fast/strong he can’t react to alter or perceive futures before he is dead (or just be so strong he has an exact 0% wincon in any future), or have KS level illusion feats to trick him.


Having hax that block your fate/future from being seen/read is a big advantage against the almighty in a stat equal battle.


WhiskeyThan said:


> Aizen literally made Yhwach perceive the infinite number of futures he can choose incorrectly. Shit is nuts and I don’t know if Genjutsu could replicate it.


If it's in terms of being infinite, only IT comes to mind. And the Totsuka blade.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> Having hax that block your fate/future from being seen/read is a big advantage against the almighty in a stat equal battle.
> 
> If it's in terms of being infinite, only IT comes to mind.


Yeah, can’t see that be overly combat useful especially with precog.


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> It’s not a blitz for the first one, Ks literally made Ichigo imperceptible. Can’t blitz someone not aware of you. He became aware after being stabbed I think.
> 
> He didn’t figure them out, Aizen de-activated it either due to being caught off guard or energy. Yhwach states that himself.


But that was already too late, Ichigo killed him with point blank bankai Getsuga Tensho. It would have been similar in a blitz scenario hence in both case, he wouldn't have been aware of what was going on until it was too late.

Yhwach only supposed that was the case, who knows, either way as soon as he understood what was going with Aizen, he fold him immediately as if he was nothing lol.


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## kayz (Nov 21, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Yeah, can’t see that be overly combat useful especially with precog.


You don't see how that nullifies Yhwach's precog?


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## Boruto (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> Having hax that block your fate/future from being seen/read is a big advantage against the almighty in a stat equal battle.


who has that?


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

kayz said:


> You don't see how that nullifies Yhwach's precog?


It wouldn’t, because all the events leading up to casting the Genjutsu are not masked by the Genjutsu back in time?

IE, he’ll know the chakra weaving, the sign and then the cast will happen all before that and if his vision got ‘clouded’ once that happened in the future, he’ll prevent it.

He knows what’ll happen if he’s caught in it, that’s the absurdity of looking at _every_ possible future. And pick any of them. Goddamit Kubo


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

Besides Almighty, Yhwach has several others abilities like sealing and stealing the abilities of others.

Kubo revealed that the medallion stealing Bankai was made via the replicate of Yhwach's Sankht Altar technique that he used against Ichibei.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Rift (Nov 21, 2022)

Akira1993 said:


> Besides Almighty, Yhwach has several others abilities like sealing and stealing the abilities of others.
> 
> Kubo revealed that the medallion stealing Bankai was made via the replicate of Yhwach's Sankht Altar technique that he used against Ichibei.


plus all the stern ritter schrifts and Yama's bankai

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Akira1993 (Nov 21, 2022)

Rift said:


> plus all the stern ritter schrifts and Yama's bankai.


Kubo didn't let him use them as he was already that broken already.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

Honestly the less relevant A is to the thread the better.

It’s a mine for wank.

Kubo was snorting those hax meds when he made that.


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## Steven (Nov 21, 2022)

Yhwach with the V would be almost as broken as the A

On top of intang via X-Axis and the M.

He gives Ichigo and co. already the middlefinger just with A

Reactions: Funny 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

speaking of yhwach, I just caught up with TTYBW. If hollows are poison to quincy, why didn't Ichigo use his vizard powers on yhwach? Why didn't Shinji or any of the other vizards jump in to fight the super quincies


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> speaking of yhwach, I just caught up with TTYBW. If hollows are poison to quincy, why didn't Ichigo use his vizard powers on yhwach? Why didn't Shinji or any of the other vizards jump in to fight the super quincies


It’s against the Vizard code of jobbing.

_More than likely restricted use by Central 46 because they are assholes._


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

Steven said:


> So,better as Isshikis wood tier AP


First of all tbe official obd term is DC, AP is for spergbattles. 2nd Naruto's planet level wood> yourwach's tiny rocks


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> It’s against the Vizard code of jobbing.
> 
> _More than likely restricted use by Central 46 because they are assholes._


likely, you say? so this pivotal plot point was never officially addressed?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 21, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> likely, you say? so this pivotal plot point was never officially addressed?


Well.



  either has to do it in the anime or pretty much nope.


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## accountmaker (Nov 21, 2022)

lol. this is worse than odas incredibly floaty wood

Reactions: Funny 1


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> It wouldn’t, because all the events leading up to casting the Genjutsu are not masked by the Genjutsu back in time?
> 
> IE, he’ll know the chakra weaving, the sign and then the cast will happen all before that and if his vision got ‘clouded’ once that happened in the future, he’ll prevent it.
> 
> He knows what’ll happen if he’s caught in it, that’s the absurdity of looking at _every_ possible future. And pick any of them. Goddamit Kubo


Eye Genjutsu require no chakra weaving and sign tho.
And if he's caught in every possible future, what happens?


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Not the point. But let's not exaggerate. Gremmy has enough experience for guns, meteors, clones, outer-space, etc.
> 
> The point is his failure to imagine anything stronger than Kenpachi.


That is not very creative... At all. Also, a failure to imagine something stronger than Kenpachi is due to his stunted imagination. We have seen One Punch Man, we can imagine something stronger than Kenpachi.

And you don't need to imagine anything stronger. Again, maybe it was a character writing thing and Gremmy was stuck on that concept against Kenpachi, in which case that is good character writing. But the things he COULD have done with his power....

Antimatter to unmake Kenpachi,
turning his bones to cookies (man I am creative), or any other variant of altering his body
Folding space so kenpachis sword slashes cut back into him
Summoning a copy of Kenpachi to fight Kenpachi voodoo style, all damage done to clone is done to original Kenpachi.
Ignoring Kenpachi (IE Teleporting him to the bottom of earth world ocean or something)
Making Kenpachi ignore you (think Guanael what whatever his name was)
Summon Voodoo Clone of Yachiru linked to Kenpachi's sword (although it's fair he wouldn't know about Yachiru's connection)
NANOMACHINES SON (Disassemble on a molecular level)
Give yourself Kotoamatsukami and use it on Kenpachi, turning him into a permanent ally. (again if he ever watched other shows)
When Kenpachi goes to attack, open a portal directly in front of him, wait for half of his body to pass through, close the portal.
Hit him with Zeno's Paradox (think Gojo from Jujutsu Kaisen), Movement becomes impossible because the space around you is infinite.
Literally make copies of Sternritter who have powers that counter Kenpachi. Pepe comes to mind.
Imagine you have a copy of X-Axis gun.
Just give him Dysentery.
Summon a copy of Yamamoto to order him to stand down. Kenpachi is dumb.

I could literally keep going forever. So you'd have to explain the limitations of Gremmy's powers in ways that make ALL of these impossible, otherwise you just have to accept that Gremmy's limitations don't really make any sense. We just try to imagine them because it's the only way to justify Kubo's bad writing in regards to his power usage.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

Gremmy has established limits, all there is too it.

The manga showcased them.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Gremmy has established limits, all there is too it.
> 
> The manga showcased them.



Then please explain to me why he couldn't do any of those. I chose a variety of methods that don't all require the same levels of power or creativity. So I am wondering what the limiting factor you imagine he has that prevents this.

If the manga established and showcased his limits, they should be clearly defined. Meaning you should be able to explain them to me.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> And if he's caught in every possible future, what happens?


”what if Genjutsu could do something it’s never been remotely shown or implied to be capable of doing”
uh


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

Look at No Limits Fallacy,

Gremmy might not be able to morph the bodies of people close to him in power, he did it to two nearly dead Captains and to Yachiru (Who does not have Kens level of Reiatsu). He cannot simply think people dead nor can he make people more powerful than himself for example. Otherwise Yhwach would not have both boosted his power and restrained him. He could not think himself out of his sealed cage.



kayz said:


> Eye Genjutsu require no chakra weaving and sign tho.
> And if he's caught in every possible future, what happens?


Literally all Ninjutsu requires Chakra moulding... Also, unless rules forbid it, he just picks a future wherein the cast was messed up, interrupted or has already finished/ended and brings it to the present. Or just kills him before he does it.

Dude is broken.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> ”what if Genjutsu could do something it’s never been remotely shown or implied to be capable of doing”
> uh


isn't that exactly how aizen fucked him over


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> isn't that exactly how aizen fucked him over


This is a feat for KS and for Aizen. He put Yhwach under KS before A awoke and fucked with his vision of all futures. IT could not replicate this a A is already active and he will not fall for any Genjutsu with such absurd precog


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> isn't that exactly how aizen fucked him over


Yeah.  KS > Genjutsu it seems.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> This is a feat for KS and for Aizen. He put Yhwach under KS before A awoke and fucked with his vision of all futures. IT could not replicate this a A is already active and he will not fall for any Genjutsu with such absurd precog


IT? assuming A means All Mighty, most fodder genjutsu can do what KS can. MS genjutsu can't be broken out of using conventional means, either


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

Apparently power nullification and timeline hopping is “conventional means” now


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Apparently power nullification and timeline hopping is “conventional means” now


He'd still be under the effect of the genjutsu. The caster could make him think he's timeline hopping, or the caster could make him change the future to one where he loses.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Kinda like what aizen did. how about that


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> He'd still be under the effect of the genjutsu. The caster could make him think he's timeline hopping, or the caster could make him change the future to one where he loses.


How the fuck would the genjutsu caster know that he can see multiple timelines in the first place, even if he did how can we assume that genjutsu could affect his perception of multiple timelines.  You’re just making stuff up now.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> IT? assuming A means All Mighty, most fodder genjutsu can do what KS can. MS genjutsu can't be broken out of using conventional means, either


Fodder Genjutsu cannot fuck with precog which looks at infinite futures. I cannot remember anything even close to that in Naruto. It can control people or brainwash and loops them, but nothing like making illusions in infinite futures to deceive someone.

He will literally alter the future so that the Genjutsu missed. Or being aware looking in the eyes is a bad idea he just wont do it. I will not get into the whole power null aspect.

Yhwach negged a conceptual hax that removed his name and made his power equal to an literal Ant, restored himself. Then oneshot that guy.

He gives 0 fucks about status effects


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Fodder Genjutsu cannot fuck with precog which looks at infinite futures. I cannot remember anything even close to that in Naruto. It can control people or brainwash and loops them, but nothing like making illusions in infinite futures to deceive someone.
> 
> He will literally alter the future so that the Genjutsu missed. Or being aware looking in the eyes is a bad idea he just wont do it. I will not get into the whole power null aspect.
> 
> ...


How would he do any of that IF HE'S ALREADY IN THE GENJUTSU? Man with some genjutsu the guy doesn't even know he's in a genjutsu


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Look at No Limits Fallacy,
> 
> Gremmy might not be able to morph the bodies of people close to him in power, he did it to two nearly dead Captains and to Yachiru (Who does not have Kens level of Reiatsu). He cannot simply think people dead nor can he make people more powerful than himself for example. Otherwise Yhwach would not have both boosted his power and restrained him. He could not think himself out of his sealed cage.
> 
> ...




Not all of these require the same level of power or directly target kenpachi. Also your argument doesn't work Yachiru IS Kenpachi's reiatsu manifested as a person. So I am not asking you what constitutes no limites.

I am asking you specifically what his limits are, and why he couldn't do indirect things like increase the space around kenpachi infinitely so he effectively can't move. That is not a contested power thing, kenpachi would be moving, it's space would be expanding around him faster than he could move, meaning he doesn't go anywhere.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

man I didn’t know the nardo wank was this bad

Reactions: Agree 3


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> How the fuck would the genjutsu caster know that he can see multiple timelines in the first place, even if he did how can we assume that genjutsu could affect his perception of multiple timelines.  You’re just making stuff up now.


That has nothing to do with it. KS only affects the senses, nothing more. Genjutsu can work in the same way. You're wanking KS, and trying to make stuff up. Most GJ doesn't care about what abilities the other guy has;that's the point. How would yhwach even switch timelines if he's under the affects of genjutsu? Why didn't he do that with KS? The answer is he can't, which means anything that can affect his perception of things can fuck with his abilities and it's bullshit to claim otherwise


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## Boruto (Nov 22, 2022)

Isshiki can’t even use any genjutsu, or at least, not any that’s relevant in a fight


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> That has nothing to do with it. KS only affects the senses, nothing more. Genjutsu can work in the same way. You're wanking KS, and trying to make stuff up. Most GJ doesn't care about what abilities the other guy has;that's the point. How would yhwach even switch timelines if he's under the affects of genjutsu? Why didn't he do that with KS? The answer is he can't, which means anything that can affect his perception of things can fuck with his abilities and it's bullshit to claim otherwise


I never said it did, but the fact that he was able to extend that sense manipulation to the point where he obscured every single relevant timeline that Yhwach could have seen to prevent him from being killed by Ichigo is a feat for KS that no Genjutsu comes close to.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

Also he did negate KS by breaking it.  He could do the same with Genjutsu by telekinetically gouging his opponents eyes out.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> That has nothing to do with it. KS only affects the senses, nothing more. Genjutsu can work in the same way. You're wanking KS, and trying to make stuff up. Most GJ doesn't care about what abilities the other guy has;that's the point. How would yhwach even switch timelines if he's under the affects of genjutsu? Why didn't he do that with KS? The answer is he can't, which means anything that can affect his perception of things can fuck with his abilities and it's bullshit to claim otherwise



Because he is omniscient and borderline omnipotent. He would know before anyone attempted to apply a genjutsu and entirely neg them having the ability at all.

The ONLY reason that didn't work on Aizen's illusions was because he was under Kyoka before Almighty activated.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> How would he do any of that IF HE'S ALREADY IN THE GENJUTSU? Man with some genjutsu the guy doesn't even know he's in a genjutsu



Why are you asking this, he got all his power removed from him and still negged a conceptual hax. He can neg stuff under it's effect even if the effect he is under makes him literally powerless. Or as powerful as a real, actual insect.

Not going to argue he becomes immune (though he literally did to Ichibei), but he clarifies here that he is aware of all the powers that could try to harm him. He will know everything about that Genjutsu before the opponent even decides to use it. Why would it even hit him?





accountmaker said:


> That has nothing to do with it. KS only affects the senses, nothing more. Genjutsu can work in the same way. You're wanking KS, and trying to make stuff up. Most GJ doesn't care about what abilities the other guy has;that's the point. *How would yhwach even switch timelines if he's under the affects of genjutsu? Why didn't he do that with KS? *The answer is he can't, which means anything that can affect his perception of things can fuck with his abilities and it's bullshit to claim otherwise


This is the same dude who altered the future after he already died, or before he died. He could just pick a future where the Genjutsu missed or the effect has ended?

You pick:

1. Picked a future where he was alive before Ichigo oneshot him *(under KS here*)
2. Picked a future where he was alive *after he died* (KS does not work on corpses or people who are dead, so no KS, nor does Genjutsu)3


Either way he got out from the illusion, be it by activating his powers when he is literally dead (unlikely), or when he was under KS. So, can Yhwach alter the future when dead, or when already under illusions that span all futures?


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Because he is omniscient and borderline omnipotent.


Alright easy now.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> I never said it did, but the fact that he was able to extend that sense manipulation to the point where he obscured every single relevant timeline that Yhwach could have seen to prevent him from being killed by Ichigo is a feat for KS that no Genjutsu comes close to.


No genjutsu had to lmao. All ks does is fuck with the target's senses, every genjutsu does that. Aizen obfuscated his senses, his ability to perceive shit. You're saying genjutsu can't do that even though that's literally what it does. It doesn't matter how many timelines yhwach can perceive if he's already under the effects of a genjutsu. Do you understand? The gj caster could literally make it so yhwach doesn't use the all mighty


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Why are you asking this, he got all his power removed from him and still negged a conceptual hax. He can neg stuff under it's effect even if the effect he is under makes him literally powerless. Or as powerful as a real, actual insect.
> 
> Not going to argue he becomes immune (though he literally did to Ichibei), but he clarifies here that he is aware of all the powers that could try to harm him. He will know everything about that Genjutsu before the opponent even decides to use it. Why would it even hit him?
> 
> ...


Then why did KS work, then?


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

If yhwch is so powerful why could ks affect him? Even if he was placed under ks before obtaining the all mighty, why did it work if he's immune to and can perceive all attacks? why didn't he go to a timeline where it never happened? the bleach wank is insane. now ik why yhwach was banned for so long


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Then why did KS work, then?


It was placed onto him before A was activated during the Muken visit. Before he absorbed the SK etc.

It also literally only works once on A and that is it. *Things done in the past have resistance to A,* Tsukishima repaired Ichigo's Bankai by inserting a new past. He is also a God Tier even when sealed who can stand up to Yhwach.

And at the end of it all he beats KS anyway, so that power did not "defeat" him and can coincide with the above to be honest. He did not know A was impacted and from the moment he knows it is of no use.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> No genjutsu had to lmao. All ks does is fuck with the target's senses, every genjutsu does that. Aizen obfuscated his senses, his ability to perceive shit. You're saying genjutsu can't do that even though that's literally what it does. It doesn't matter how many timelines yhwach can perceive if he's already under the effects of a genjutsu. Do you understand? The gj caster could literally make it so yhwach doesn't use the all mighty


Are you capable of understanding that controlling the senses does not equate to literally controlling every single facet of the senses down to the tiniest minutiae?  Every single future Yhwach sees is an additional bit of work that the caster would have to do.  KS could do this, there is nothing to indicate Genjutsu could.  This isn’t that complicated.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

Boruto said:


> Isshiki can’t even use any genjutsu, or at least, not any that’s relevant in a fight


Also this


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> was placed onto him before A was activated during the Muken visit. Before he absorbed the SK etc.
> 
> It also literally only works once on A and that is it. *Things done in the past have resistance to A,* Tsukishima repaired Ichigo's Bankai by inserting a new past. He is also a God Tier even when sealed who can stand up to Yhwach.
> 
> And at the end of it all he beats KS anyway, so that power did not "defeat" him and can coincide with the above to be honest. He did not know A was impacted and from the moment he knows it is of no use.


Then that proves my point. people can unknowingly be placed under genjutsu, so random uchiha fodder solos.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Are you capable of understanding that controlling the senses does not equate to literally controlling every single facet of the senses down to the tiniest minutiae?  Every single future Yhwach sees is an additional bit of work that the caster would have to do.  KS could do this, there is nothing to indicate Genjutsu could.  This isn’t that complicated.


What you can't seem to grasp is that everything you said is irrelevant. KS affected yhwach's perception of those timelines, not the timelines themselves, ergo any genjutsu that can affect yhwach's ability to perceive shit can do the same. You'd have to prove any of that different timeline shit is at all relevant. Genjutsu could literally make yhwach think the all mighty doesn't work. You're right, it isn't complicated.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Also this


dunno why it was brought up, but it was a fun little aside

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

starting to think account maker might just be bullshitting for the fun of it

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

*He still alters the future under KS
Or he did when dead. *(Dead people literally cannot think)

Either is enough of a feat to escape a Genjutsu

Like, how can someone seeing all the futures unknowingly fall for a trap. It makes anti-sense.

Though we both know Uchiha fodder get handwaved to death or speedblitzed.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> What you can't seem to grasp is that everything you said is irrelevant. KS affected yhwach's perception of those timelines, not the timelines themselves, ergo any genjutsu that can affect yhwach's ability to perceive shit can do the same. You'd have to prove any of that different timeline shit is at all relevant. Genjutsu could literally make yhwach think the all mighty doesn't work. You're right, it isn't complicated.


You didn’t even read my post lmao.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> You didn’t even read my post lmao.


I did, and it's irrelevant

Are you capable of understanding that controlling the senses does not equate to literally controlling every single facet of the senses down to the tiniest minutiae?

Completely irrelevant. KS could fuck with yhwach's senses enough to fool him, ergo so can genjutsu. tf does "controlling the senses down to the tiniest minutiae" have to do with anything? Genjutsu in the Naruto verse literally has better feats than ks. Itachi's tsukuyomi alone altered Kakashi's perception of time itself and inflicted real pain that put him out of commission. KS has never done anything of the sort

*Every single future Yhwach sees is an additional bit of work that the caster would have to do*. KS could do this, there is nothing to indicate Genjutsu could. This isn’t that complicated.

Prove it. And again, what's stopping the caster from making it so yhwach can't use the All mighty at all?


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

"Prove that Genjutsu couldn't do something that it's literally never been shown to be capable of doing."


Ignoring the fact that the caster presumably wouldn't even know about his future sight in the first place, and subsequently wouldn't know to even try to obscure his perception of those futures, the fact is that his perception is vastly, perhaps nigh-infinitely wider than a person without the Almighty. The illusionist would have to work to obscure every single bit of this vast perception. Also Aizens KS literally can affect perception of time, as it did to Yhwach in the first invasion, and considering it controls all five senses pain would obviously be something he could fuck with.

On topic, Yhwach does this to Isshiki


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> "Prove that Genjutsu couldn't do something that it's literally never been shown to be capable of doing."
> 
> 
> Ignoring the fact that the caster presumably wouldn't even know about his future sight in the first place, and subsequently wouldn't know to even try to obscure his perception of those futures, the fact is that his perception is vastly, perhaps nigh-infinitely wider than a person without the Almighty. The illusionist would have to work to obscure every single bit of this vast perception. Also Aizens KS literally can affect perception of time, as it did to Yhwach in the first invasion, and considering it controls all five senses pain would obviously be something he could fuck with.
> ...


I'm asking you to prove ks worked the way you said it did, ie having to affect yhwach's perception of every timeline. And why is this relevant when genjutsu could just make yhwach think all mighty doesn't work?

Yeah, cool. Tsukuyomi made Kakashi think days had gone by, yhwach's perception was off by a few minutes at best. Apparently genjutsu>KS. glad we agree lol

Oh. KS can affect someone's sense of pain? It can inflict pain from nothing? Something it's never shown the ability to do? Hmmm, interesting.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> I'm asking you to prove ks worked the way you said it did, ie having to affect yhwach's perception of every timeline. And why is this relevant when genjutsu could just make yhwach think all mighty doesn't work?


What, and how would that stop allmighty?
Even assuming the genjutsu would work, it would only affect one timeline and not for example another timeline when he simply decided to not cast that genjutsu. Aizen used KS before he unlocked all mighty, and given that he can last for years, he could alter the perception of yhwach for a bit. But even that didn't last long. And on top of that, it's a feat for KS, not for any genjutsu.

But it seems like you're either trolling/assuming that one detail can make the genjutsu better than KS and for some reason that is enough to inherit KS feats. Like, KS can last for century while Tsukuyomi last for a few second at best, by your logic then KS can inflict pain to the opponent. Nice try


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> I'm asking you to prove ks worked the way you said it did, ie having to affect yhwach's perception of every timeline. And why is this relevant when genjutsu could just make yhwach think all mighty doesn't work?
> 
> Yeah, cool. Tsukuyomi made Kakashi think days had gone by, yhwach's perception was off by a few minutes at best. Apparently genjutsu>KS. glad we agree lol
> 
> Oh. KS can affect someone's sense of pain? It can inflict pain from nothing? Something it's never shown the ability to do? Hmmm, interesting.


He couldn't see any of the timelines where he died and thus couldn't avoid them, so KS would have needed to cover every timeline where that happened.  Straightforward.  KS controls senses, pain is a sense.

BTW were you serious about the planets = pebbles thing or just memeing. I assumed you were joking but now I'm not sure.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> He couldn't see any of the timelines where he died and thus couldn't avoid them, so KS would have needed to cover every timeline where that happened.  Straightforward.  KS controls senses, pain is a sense.
> 
> BTW were you serious about the planets = pebbles thing or just memeing. I assumed you were joking but now I'm not sure.


So all ks had to do was block his senses, not alter his perception of every single timeline? gotcha

Sure, ks should be able to do that, but it's never shown the ability to so for our purposes it can't. In the same vein, Ishiki should be able to use genjutsu, but he's never shown using it so we don't count that as part of his arsenal.

Yes I was joking. Frankly idk what those were, and I don't really care. If Kubo wants to elaborate he will, but atm most of the obd don't acknowledge that feat


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> So all ks had to do was block his senses, not alter his perception of every single timeline? gotcha
> 
> Sure, ks should be able to do that, but it's never shown the ability to so for our purposes it can't. In the same vein, Ishiki should be able to use genjutsu, but he's never shown using it so we don't count that as part of his arsenal.
> 
> Yes I was joking. Frankly idk what those were, and I don't really care. If Kubo wants to elaborate he will, but atm most of the obd don't acknowledge that feat


He didn't block his senses, if he did Yhwach would have realized something was up.  That's why he needed to alter his perception of every single timeline.  Also, Genjutsu doesn't "block" senses, it generates specific illusions that it feeds into an opponents mind.  KS controls the senses themselves outright.

"He didn't use it so he can't use it" is pretty asinine as a standard ngl.

No offense but it's pretty obvious that they are planets to everyone who isn't an autistic vs debate goon. As if the little galaxy and planetary rings weren't enough to get the point across.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> What, and how would that stop allmighty?
> Even assuming the genjutsu would work, it would only affect one timeline and not for example another timeline when he simply decided to not cast that genjutsu. Aizen used KS before he unlocked all mighty, and given that he can last for years, he could alter the perception of yhwach for a bit. But even that didn't last long. And on top of that, it's a feat for KS, not for any genjutsu.
> 
> But it seems like you're either trolling/assuming that one detail can make the genjutsu better than KS and for some reason that is enough to inherit KS feats. Like, KS can last for century while Tsukuyomi last for a few second at best, by your logic then KS can inflict pain to the opponent. Nice try


Because you say so am I right? Most genjutsu can do everything ks can and more. How long ks can last is irrelevant and so are the timeline shenanigans if yhwach is already under genjutsu. Yhwach didn't know he was under ks ergo illusions and mindfuck can work on him; it's that simple. He can't move to another timeline if the gj caster makes him think he can't. Some of You guys are even bringing up irrelevant feats like resurrection to powerscale mindfuck resistance.   and yes, ik it was to illustrate that yhwach can activate the all mighty without a brain, but that doesn't prove he can break out of mind control.

There's nothing ks can do that genjutsu can't, therefore it can work on yhwach. it's that simple. No need to be so damn anal.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> He didn't block his senses, if he did Yhwach would have realized something was up.  That's why he needed to alter his perception of every single timeline.  Also, Genjutsu doesn't "block" senses, it generates specific illusions that it feeds into an opponents mind.  KS controls the senses themselves outright.
> 
> "He didn't use it so he can't use it" is pretty asinine as a standard ngl.
> 
> No offense but it's pretty obvious that they are planets to everyone who isn't an autistic vs debate goon. As if the little galaxy and planetary rings weren't enough to get the point across.


Man show the feat in question, this is getting ridiculous. Either way a GJ user can make yhawch think the all mighty doesn't work, like I've been repeating ad infinitum. Genjutsu works by altering people's senses in order to create said illusions. Specifically it fucks with the chakra, or whatever energy is in the opponents brain to fuck with what they perceive.


That's a great standard. We can't go around assuming a character can do something just because he theoretically "should" be able to. Context matters, ofc, but that's the  standard around these parts.

I ain't touching that can of worms. Go to the yhwach destructive capacity thread in the meta if you want to discuss it


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Man show the feat in question, this is getting ridiculous. Either way a GJ user can make yhawch think the all mighty doesn't work, like I've been repeating ad infinitum. Genjutsu works by altering people's senses in order to create said illusions. Specifically it fucks with the chakra, or whatever energy is in the opponents brain to fuck with what they perceive.


The feat is Aizen used it on Yhwach with the Almighty active and it worked.  I know you've been repeating your head canon but it's not relevant.  I can assume that the genjutsu caster has full knowlege of the almighty, and specifically uses it to make Yhwach think the Almighty doesn't work.  Then what?  The guy's still immortal, worst case scenario he gets killed and then just comes back, knowing to avoid it this time.  I can give you everything you want and it still doesn't matter.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> The feat is Aizen used it on Yhwach with the Almighty active and it worked.  I know you've been repeating your head canon but it's not relevant.  I can assume that the genjutsu caster has full knowlege of the almighty, and specifically uses it to make Yhwach think the Almighty doesn't work.  Then what?  The guy's still immortal, worst case scenario he gets killed and then just comes back, knowing to avoid it this time.  I can give you everything you want and it still doesn't matter.


A scan Jesus Christ,post a scan.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> A scan Jesus Christ,post a scan.


Do you dispute that KS worked on Almighty Yhwach?


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

that's it I'm out

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Piecesis (Nov 22, 2022)




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## BossKitten (Nov 22, 2022)

Aizen's KS effects all of your senses, including your sense of time, and the power/reiatsu/chakra/etc that you sense coming from someone

The only person in Naruto who's genjutsu is said to effect your main 5 senses is Itachi, so talking about fodder replicating anything Aizen has done is just nonesense. 

Aizen effecting Bach and The Almighty with his KS is a feat for Bach. Any genjutsu user, including Itachi would have to show that they can do something on that level, we can't just assume they can. 

IT might be a different case because it was shown to effect a crap ton of people at the same time, and if I remember correctly, that genjutsu is supposed to last forever. I don't know enough about it at the moment to say anything for sure.

Gremmy has limits. Pretending that he doesn't is foolishness. The most you can do is hope the anime upgrades him.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

I'm gonna have nightmares about this.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

I've mind-broken him.  Me > Genjutsu


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Because you say so am I right? Most genjutsu can do everything ks can and more. How long ks can last is irrelevant and so are the timeline shenanigans if yhwach is already under genjutsu. Yhwach didn't know he was under ks ergo illusions and mindfuck can work on him; it's that simple. He can't move to another timeline if the gj caster makes him think he can't. Some of You guys are even bringing up irrelevant feats like resurrection to powerscale mindfuck resistance.  and yes, ik it was to illustrate that yhwach can activate the all mighty without a brain, but that doesn't prove he can break out of mind control.
> 
> There's nothing ks can do that genjutsu can't, therefore it can work on yhwach. it's that simple. No need to be so damn anal.


Most genjutsu can do more than KS like what? Inflicting pain? Is that relevant to affecting someone like Yhwach? Please, you're even try to use tsukuyomi as baseline for genjutsu, when it's one of the best they've got and it's not even available to Isshiki.
The fact that you still don't understand that affecting him before getting all might is a key factor speaks a lot about your comprehension. And on top of that, as we already said, affecting him is a feat for KS, that doesn't mean that any genjutsu can do that
Yhwach while under KS still used his power, he used his power even while he was sealed or while dead, and you're trying to say that Genjutsu can stop him? Sure buddy, keep believing that


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## LazyWaka (Nov 22, 2022)

All genjutsu effects the 5 senses. Itachi was just the only one who could effect your perception of time, and only with tsukiyomi.

At least until IT anyway.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Steven (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> A scan Jesus Christ,post a scan.


Lol the irony


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## BossKitten (Nov 22, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> All genjutsu effects the 5 senses. Itachi was just the only one who could effect your perception of time, and only with tsukiyomi.
> 
> At least until IT anyway.



Thanks for the correction. Lines up with what I said about Itachi's genjutsu (Tsukiyomi) being the most similar thing to KS.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Thanks for the correction. Lines up with what I said about Itachi's genjutsu (Tsukiyomi) being the most similar thing to KS.


Obito manipulated the 4th mizukage, a perfect jin, for years with genjutsu, and that's not even his forte. Literally controlled his every action. That's above what KS has shown to do


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## BossKitten (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Obito manipulated the 4th mizukage, a perfect jin, for years with genjutsu, and that's not even his forte. Literally controlled his every action. That's above what KS has shown to do



Nothing about that is above what KS has been shown to do, unless you're talking about mind control.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Most genjutsu can do more than KS like what? Inflicting pain? Is that relevant to affecting someone like Yhwach? Please, you're even try to use tsukuyomi as baseline for genjutsu, when it's one of the best they've got and it's not even available to Isshiki.
> The fact that you still don't understand that affecting him before getting all might is a key factor speaks a lot about your comprehension. And on top of that, as we already said, affecting him is a feat for KS, that doesn't mean that any genjutsu can do that
> Yhwach while under KS still used his power, he used his power even while he was sealed or while dead, and you're trying to say that Genjutsu can stop him? Sure buddy, keep believing that


yes, like outright controlling people, controlling their perception of time to a much higher degree than aizen has shown to, or fucking them up so much it looks like they're in a completely different reality.

Him being put under ks before obtaining the all mighty is irrelevant. The point is he didn't know he was under ks's effects, and therefore couldn't counter it. My argument is that he wouldn't know he was under genjutsu so he wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Can you read at all?

Good for him, he still couldn't break out of it until later.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Nothing about that is above what KS has been shown to do, unless you're talking about mind control.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. Y'all keep wanking ks when no name gj can do pretty everything it can and more


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

Aizen kept the vizards under KS for 100 years.  This is all irrelevant since even with account's fanwanked genjutsu it wouldn't even allow anyone in the cast to actually put Yhwach down.


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## accountmaker (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Aizen kept the vizards under KS for 100 years.  This is all irrelevant since even with account's fanwanked genjutsu it wouldn't even allow anyone in the cast to actually put Yhwach down.


Yeah but he didn't straight up control them, which is my point, but apparently reading comprehension isn't your forte.

Your only argument is that ks was able to affect yhwach's perception of other timelines, and you're using that to apply some arbitrary limit on what genjutsu can do. If gj can control the opponent's five senses, like ks, why wouldn't it fuck up yhwach's perception of timelines? And furthermore, why does this matter when even run of the mill genjutsu can straight up take control of the opponent? NlF mighty notwithstanding.

Don't give a shit about ishiki or the outcome of this match tbh. i found the genjutsu debate interesting, so I threw in my 2 cents. And I'll continue to debate it until I either get bored or find something better to do.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> ”what if Genjutsu could do something it’s never been remotely shown or implied to be capable of doing”
> uh


Yhwach switches futures, right? 

Are we going to assume there is a going to be a future where genjutsu is not used effectively against Yhwach?


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Literally all Ninjutsu requires Chakra moulding... Also, unless rules forbid it, he just picks a future wherein the cast was messed up, interrupted or has already finished/ended and brings it to the present. Or just kills him before he does it.
> 
> Dude is broken.


You assume there's going to be a future where genjutsu didn't work?


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> It was placed onto him before A was activated during the Muken visit. Before he absorbed the SK etc.
> 
> It also literally only works once on A and that is it. *Things done in the past have resistance to A,* Tsukishima repaired Ichigo's Bankai by inserting a new past. He is also a God Tier even when sealed who can stand up to Yhwach.
> 
> And at the end of it all he beats KS anyway, so that power did not "defeat" him and can coincide with the above to be honest. He did not know A was impacted and from the moment he knows it is of no use.


Wasn't Ichibei's tech cast before Almighty's activation?

Why did almighty nullify that?


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Obito manipulated the 4th mizukage, a perfect jin, for years with genjutsu, and that's not even his forte. Literally controlled his every action. That's above what KS has shown to do


With an unknown genjutsu, we don't have any information on how he did and if he had limitation or else. On top of that, that's straight up mind control, even Pepe or Zommari can do stuff like that, that doesn't mean that they're better than KS.
You're just trying to do some random powerscaling now, just because a Genjutsu can inflict pain that doesn't mean that something like Kotoamatsukami can do the same. 


accountmaker said:


> yes, like outright controlling people, controlling their perception of time to a much higher degree than aizen has shown to, or fucking them up so much it looks like they're in a completely different reality.


Controlling people it's not illusion, it's a different power.
Altering the perception of time is something that even Aizen can do, Itachi can make a second last days, but Mayuri's drug could make a second last century, wanna argue that would have affected Bach or that's better than KS because of that?
And you're still speaking about tsukuyomi, not something that Isshiki can do here.


accountmaker said:


> Him being put under ks before obtaining the all mighty is irrelevant.


Altering the perception of time or doing different stuff is irrelevant lol, you're trying to ignore one of the main reason because that worked. 


accountmaker said:


> The point is he didn't know he was under ks's effects, and therefore couldn't counter it. My argument is that he wouldn't know he was under genjutsu so he wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Can you read at all?


No, the point was that the power was used before he achieved the all mighty, it was activated in the past so he didn't know because he can foresee stuff in the future.
And on top of that, Aizen showed the feat to be able to affect him.
Which was explained in the manga, can you read that or are you gonna ask again for scans? Because seems like you're bringing a random argument, using a jutsu that Isshiki can't even use using feats of other series.
If you want we can open Itachi vs Yhwach.


accountmaker said:


> If gj can control the opponent's five senses, like ks, why wouldn't it fuck up yhwach's perception of timelines?


BEcause they never showed something like this? How many times do you need to read this to understand? Other 50 times?


kayz said:


> Are we going to assume there is a going to be a future where genjutsu is not used effectively against Yhwach?


Genjutsu it's a broad category. Are we speaking about illusion? Mind control? Something else?


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

For me the debate ended when Yhwach literally used A either under KS or dead to get out of it.



kayz said:


> Yhwach switches futures, right?
> 
> Are we going to assume there is a going to be a future where genjutsu is not used effectively against Yhwach?


There is going to be a future where the person Yhwach is fighting was going to use Genjutsu and then decided not to because he felt another ability was better. Just as there are infinite futures where the very first thing he does is use a Genjutsu.

He simply picks one wherein he did not do it.

I mean, blame Kubo, but just read the explanations given. It's nicknamed "The Bullshit" for good reason in the Bleach section


Orihime blocked his attack and he just brought a future to the present where it hit anyway. He can instagib people.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> That is not very creative... At all. Also, a failure to imagine something stronger than Kenpachi is due to his stunted imagination. We have seen One Punch Man, we can imagine something stronger than Kenpachi.
> 
> And you don't need to imagine anything stronger. Again, maybe it was a character writing thing and Gremmy was stuck on that concept against Kenpachi, in which case that is good character writing. But the things he COULD have done with his power....
> 
> ...


The way Kubo went about this, it was more like Kenpachi would always outmuscle anything Gremmy imagined?

Are you telling me those shields that Gremmy created wasn't given absolute protection from Kenpachi's slashes, but yet still cut through like butter?


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Yeah but he didn't straight up control them, which is my point, but apparently reading comprehension isn't your forte.
> 
> Your only argument is that ks was able to affect yhwach's perception of other timelines, and you're using that to apply some arbitrary limit on what genjutsu can do. If gj can control the opponent's five senses, like ks, why wouldn't it fuck up yhwach's perception of timelines? And furthermore, why does this matter when even run of the mill genjutsu can straight up take control of the opponent? NlF mighty notwithstanding.


They were under the spell for 100 years, just because he might not have been actively warping their senses 100% of the time doesn't change that.

I'm applying a limit to Genjutsu because it's never been shown to affect a character who can see nigh infinite possible futures yes. You still haven't addressed the fact that without knowlege of the almighty the Genjutsu caster wouldn't even know to try and obscure all those visions of the future? They wouldn't try to obscure something they don't even know is there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Yhwach switches futures, right?
> 
> Are we going to assume there is a going to be a future where genjutsu is not used effectively against Yhwach?


Considering the number of futures he can see is "countless" and he's done similar things in the past I'm going to say that's a safe assumption.  Ichibei was going to erase his very existence with his hax and A just said nope to it.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Alright easy now.





kayz said:


> The way Kubo went about this, it was more like Kenpachi would always outmuscle anything Gremmy imagined?
> 
> Are you telling me those shields that Gremmy created wasn't given absolute protection from Kenpachi's slashes, but yet still cut through like butter?



You can't cut through physically being in another place. You can't cut through an infinite amount of distance between you and your opponent. Some concepts, if you are *creative* enough, entirely bypass the ability to contest them with strength.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> There is going to be a future where the person Yhwach is fighting was going to use Genjutsu and then decided not to because he felt another ability was better. Just as there are infinite futures where the very first thing he does is use a Genjutsu.
> 
> He simply picks one wherein he did not do it.
> 
> ...


Given your explanation, the almighty can change the outcome of any future action to the will of Yhwach, but within reason. ... 

How would the almighty stack up against passive genjutsu tech like Eida's _allure_ that don't require any activation?


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You can't cut through physically being in another place. You can't cut through an infinite amount of distance between you and your opponent. Some concepts, if you are *creative* enough, entirely bypass the ability to contest them with strength.


That's what we thought about the intangible rift of space Gremmy summoned, yet Kenpachi cut through it


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Given your explanation, the almighty can change the outcome of any future action to the will of Yhwach, but within reason. ...
> 
> How would the almighty stack up against passive genjutsu tech like Eida's _allure_ that don't require any activation?



With Eida, Jutsu that does not harm can work right?

What counts as harming? Also you need to see her face for this to work right? Already a few ways around it there, he can use Sankt Altar to steal her powers (not fatal nor does it harm you)

Also it appears as though Shadow Boy resisted it with pure will for long enough to Shadow Jutsu her, this is long enough for Yhwach to just murder her. 

Though this is once again ignoring how he negged his entire power being stripped and being renamed to black ant. Not sure how the ODB clarifies neg feats, but I would imagine a brainwashing/infatuation technique that somewhat can be resisted with willpower has no chance of beating Yhwach


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> How would the almighty stack up against passive genjutsu tech like Eida's _allure_ that don't require any activation?


As far as we saw, it's not even like that he needs to avoid the effect in the first place to use his power to alter what happened.
They removed his power and then he cancelled that.
They killed him and then he cancelled that.
On top of that, he should have some kinda of resistance to stuff like that, given that power like this exist even in Bleach


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> With Eida, Jutsu that does not harm can work right?
> 
> What counts as harming? Also you need to see her face for this to work right? Already a few ways around it there, he can use Sankt Altar to steal her powers (not fatal nor does it harm you)
> 
> ...


Worth mentioning, in the novels it's confirmed that Lilittoto could have used Pepe's mind hax of the Love schrift against yhwach but didn't out of principle if I remember correctly.  I would need to double check but I believe Kubo said that it would have worked on him for "a little while" meaning he could have broken out of it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Worth mentioning, in the novels it's confirmed that Lilittoto could have used Pepe's mind hax of the Love schrift against yhwach but didn't out of principle if I remember correctly.  I would need to double check but I believe Kubo said that it would have worked on him for "a little while" meaning he could have broken out of it.


How TF would that work?

Is Pepe alive and how does Liltotto have the schrift if not? Does G allow it?

Also no way in hell should we listen to Narita over Kubo.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> That's what we thought about the intangible rift of space Gremmy summoned, yet Kenpachi cut through it



Not really. He created a bubble of vacuum surrounded by air. Generating enough force to rupture whatever that bubble is and destroy the vacuum stops that effect.

I am talking about TELEPORTING him around the world. Is he going to slash through the concept of different places?


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> How TF would that work?
> 
> Is Pepe alive and how does Liltotto have the schrift if not?
> 
> Also no way in hell should we listen to Narita over Kubo.


Liltotto ate him, and apparently The Glutton lets her absorb whatever powers the people she eatws have.  Kubo signs off on everything in the novels as well.  The quote I'm referencing was in one of his Q&A's I believe, I'd have to track it down.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> With Eida, Jutsu that does not harm can work right?
> 
> What counts as harming? Also you need to *see her face for this to work* right? Already a few ways around it there, he can use Sankt Altar to steal her powers (not fatal nor does it harm you)


Not yet confirmed. Sarada can still be affected right now but with a different effect.


WhiskeyThan said:


> Also it appears as though Shadow Boy resisted it with pure will for long enough to Shadow Jutsu her, this is long enough for Yhwach to just murder her.


Indon't know about murder.. That's the point of Eida's tech though, you can't use anything that will bring harm to her. It affects you on an unconscious level.


WhiskeyThan said:


> Though this is once again ignoring how he negged his entire power being stripped and being renamed to black ant. Not sure how the ODB clarifies neg feats, but I would imagine a brainwashing/infatuation technique that somewhat can be resisted with willpower has no chance of beating Yhwach


No one yet has overcome Eida's ability on willpower. If you are referring to Shikamaru, the longer he resisted would have lead to permanent mental damage, but not once could he inflict harm on Eida.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Liltotto ate him, and apparently The Glutton lets her absorb whatever powers the people she eatws have.  Kubo signs off on everything in the novels as well.


Kubo does not sign off in the same way, he provided lore, but those novels would have you compare EOS Ginjo to EOS Ichigo and EOS Aizen and Reio replacements. Despite the vast tiers difference and Ginjo could only dream of matching Ichigo's strongest Getsuga.

The powerscaling is all Narita's. Fair enough on Glutton absorbing schrifts though.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> As far as we saw, it's not even like that he needs to avoid the effect in the first place to use his power to alter what happened.
> They removed his power and then he cancelled that.





Bad Wolf said:


> They killed him and then he cancelled that.
> On top of that, he should have some kinda of resistance to stuff like that, given that power like this exist even in Bleach


If Yhwach can lol'nope anything, shouldn't KS have been lol'noped?


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Not yet confirmed. Sarada can still be affected right now but with a different effect.
> 
> Indon't know about murder.. That's the point of Eida's tech though, you can't use anything that will bring harm to her.
> 
> No one yet has overcome Eida's ability on willpower. If you are referring to Shikamaru, the longer he resisted would have lead to permanent mental damage, but not once could he inflict harm on Eida.


Does the ability end when you are out of her sight?

If so, he picks a future where he is out of her sight/time limit as worn off?

Or are you permanently effected from that moment onwards?


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Does the ability end when you are out of her sight?
> 
> If so, he picks a future where he is out of her sight/time limit as worn off?
> 
> Or are you permanently effected from that moment onwards?


TBH, Eida's ability hasn't been fleshed out. Don't want to put too much effort into this for now.

I might come back to this when they flesh it out, hopefully next month.

But yes, the effect doesn't wear off. It's permanent and can be used on a global scale. That's the information right now.


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## Steven (Nov 22, 2022)

>Genjutsus debate
>Isshiki dont has any form of Genjutsu in the first place

Nice timewaste

Reactions: Agree 5


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> TBH, Eida's ability hasn't been fleshed out. Don't want to put too much effort into this for now.
> 
> I might come back to this when they flesh it out, hopefully next month.
> 
> But yes, the effect doesn't wear off. It's permanent and can be used on a global scale. That's the information right now.


Got it, honestly stealing her abilities would be the go to then. He absorbed the entire SK and stole the conceptual darkness powers from Ichibei (who got them back because of his own absurd powerset).


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

Yeah I can't find the interview but I did hear about that statement about Yhwach being able to neg The Love from multiple people.  Oh well.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Got it, honestly stealing her abilities would be the go to then. He absorbed the entire SK and stole the conceptual darkness powers from Ichibei (who got them back because of his own absurd powerset).


Can Yhwach steal passive abilities tied to DNA? 

And it's not known if the effect will stop even if Eida is dead or the ability is gone. 

Yhwach would have to steal it before he is affected.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Can Yhwach steal passive abilities tied to DNA?


He stole Ichibei’s conceptual names are power abilities. Hence why I wondered how the OBd clarifies and limits such power stealing. 


kayz said:


> And it's not known if the effect will stop even if Eida is dead or the ability is gone.


That would be important to be honest.


kayz said:


> Yhwach would have to steal it before he is affected.


I think he can do that while effected, holding her still isn’t harm. Stealing power isn’t harmful unless it directly kills her (doesn’t), then he offs her afterwards would be my thought.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

did a little more digging

From CFYOW, the narrator speaking. Mind hax apparently ineffective.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> He stole Ichibei’s conceptual names are power abilities. Hence why I wondered how the OBd clarifies and limits such power stealing.


Can you share scans of this. I can't remember him taking Ichibei's ability.

It seemed to me what Yhwach steals is specifically Bankai and quincy powers (understandable, it came from him). And Bankai is tied to an opponents zanpaktou, not DNA. 
Can he take all powers from an opponent?


WhiskeyThan said:


> That would be important to be honest.
> 
> I think he can do that while effected, holding her still isn’t harm. Stealing power isn’t harmful unless it directly kills her (doesn’t), then he offs her afterwards would be my thought.


Need more confirmation from the manga. Till then.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> did a little more digging
> 
> From CFYOW, the narrator speaking. Mind hax apparently ineffective.


This is a belief, not that she used it on Yhwach tho.
And if it was going to be used, Yhwach would alter the future. It's not that he is immune to all mind hax.

KS is still mind hax, and still worked.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Can you share scans of this. I can't remember him taking Ichibei's ability.


I’ll grab it later, out at the moment just. Basically it’s before Bankai is even used, The Bankai Medallions are based on this Yhwach only technique. Sankt Altar.

Basically he steals the powers and then can’t use them, Ichibei explains that he did steal. Ichibei just got them back because his power source is “darkness” or “black” and it seems any of that existing means his power just returns.

I’ll just have to quote one of my old posts, I’ll get more scans later if needed.


WhiskeyThan said:


> I always worked on the conceptual hax thing and combined it with what he said here. Since he was born from darkness weirdo shit, as long as Black or Darkness exists he will retain or regain them. It is also showing being pulled off Yhwach.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Can you share scans of this. I can't remember him taking Ichibei's ability.



*Spoiler*: __


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## BossKitten (Nov 22, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> That's exactly what I'm talking about. Y'all keep wanking ks when no name gj can do pretty everything it can and more



Cool. Where are Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara mind control feats over people?


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> This is a belief, not that she used it on Yhwach tho.
> And if it was going to be used, Yhwach would alter the future. It's not that he is immune to all mind hax.
> 
> KS is still mind hax, and still worked.


KS is categorically different from the sort of mind hax that Pepe or Eida has.  Even then it stopped working after he self resurrected anyway.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> KS is categorically different from the sort of mind hax that Pepe or Eida has.  Even then it stopped working after he self resurrected anyway.


Either way, Pepe's ability is still different from Eida's.


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## Asura barracuda (Nov 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Cool. Where are Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara mind control feats over people?




Let's see , for Itachi alone.


Itachi mind controlled Kabuto into spilling out the Edo Tensei Jutsu for him.


He mind controlled the woman the Jiraya was with.


He mind controlled millions of microscopic insects and commanded them to halt.


In the war arc it's stated he was the only candidate capable of controlling over thousands of Shinobis simultaneously and forcing them to kill eachother.


Mind controlled Deidara.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Either way, Pepe's ability is still different from Eida's.


How is it different?  Genuinely asking, seems basically the same from what I've seen.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> *Spoiler*: __


All right.

That looks kinda exclusive to Bankai. Not sure if that'll work on every opponent.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> All right.
> 
> That looks kinda exclusive to Bankai. Not sure if that'll work on every opponent.


Ichibei is not in Bankai nor did he steal Bankai.

He stole *all *his powers. Not the same thing.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> How is it different?  Genuinely asking, seems basically the same from what I've seen.


Good question.

Pepe's ability turns you to a conscious slave.

Eida's ability makes it that you can't make actions that directly harm her. It doesn't affect the conscious mind. Your actions are yours. 
It goes deeper. Amado explains it works on an "unconscious level"


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Ichibei is not in Bankai nor did he steal Bankai.
> 
> He stole *all *his powers. Not the same thing.


Let me get this straight. How can Yhwach steal all powers from Ichibei, yet Ichibei is still using powers?


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Good question.
> 
> Pepe's ability turns you to a conscious slave.
> 
> ...


From what I'm reading on the wiki, which is to be taken with a grain of salt of course, her power can actually be resisted normally, you just end up getting headaches, fevers and eventual brain damage.  Seems less potent than Pepe's ability which makes you a completely obedient slave from the word go.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 22, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Let's see , for Itachi alone.
> 
> 
> Itachi mind controlled Kabuto into spilling out the Edo Tensei Jutsu for him.
> ...




Actually it was established that Itachi couldn't mind control that many people at once. That's why they dismissed him as a suspect.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Let me get this straight. How can Yhwach steal all powers from Ichibei, yet Ichibei is still using powers?


Ichibei got them back because he embodies name power and “Black” or “Darkness”

In the panels I and the others posted, he states this. Basically it just comes back to him because of his own abilities or nature.

He *did *steal it, Ichibei himself states this. Just doesn’t remain with him.


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## Asura barracuda (Nov 22, 2022)

LazyWaka said:


> Actually it was established that Itachi couldn't mind control that many people at once. That's why they dismissed him as a suspect.




Oh yeah I know.


It's the fact that his name was the only one brought up for such an absurd number in the first place.


Meaning Itachi could already control an already absurd amount before, hence why he was the one and only pick


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> From what I'm reading on the wiki, which is to be taken with a grain of salt of course, her power can actually be resisted normally, you just end up getting headaches, fevers and eventual brain damage.  Seems less potent than Pepe's ability which makes you a completely obedient slave from the word go.


You'll end up comparing apples and oranges if you equate Eida's Allure to Pepe's Love.

Eida's true ability is not to turn a person to a conscious slave.
I'll leave this until they flesh out her ability.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Ichibei got them back because he embodies name power and “Black” or “Darkness”
> 
> In the panels I and the others posted, he states this. Basically it just comes back to him because of his own abilities or nature.
> 
> He *did *steal it, Ichibei himself states this. Just doesn’t remain with him.


That will be some limitations to Yhwach's power steal then, no matter how we interpret this scenario.
It's the reason I asked if Yhwach could steal abilities tied to one's DNA.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> You'll end up comparing apples and oranges if you equate Eida's Allure to Pepe's Love.
> 
> Eida's true ability is not to turn a person to a conscious slave.
> I'll leave this until they flesh out her ability.


fair enough


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> That will be some limitations to Yhwach's power steal then, no matter how we interpret this scenario.
> It's the reason I asked if Yhwach could steal abilities tied to one's DNA.


He absorbed the entire Soul King, who is his father. Bone and all, just took him all in.

He could assimilate or absorb their entire body to be honest.

His entire existence is based on taking power, be it from retuning from Dead Sternritter or just yanking it out him.

Funny he also specifically targeted Quincy powers in Ichigo (dna based/inherited from his mother) and just pulled them out of him.

Honestly considering he full absorbed the Soul King, he probably could absorb all of someone who’s weaker than him or injured if same level?

Considering Ichibei is stronger than this Yhwach, he can do it to stronger people.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> He absorbed the entire Soul King, who is his father. Bone and all, just took him all in.
> 
> He could assimilate or absorb their entire body to be honest.
> 
> ...


I get the Quincy powers since those powers originally came from him.

Besides the soul king and quincies, was there anyone else that Yhwach absorbed? I don't get why he failed to absorb Ichibei


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## BossKitten (Nov 22, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Let's see , for Itachi alone.
> 
> 
> Itachi mind controlled Kabuto into spilling out the Edo Tensei Jutsu for him.
> ...



Now Kakashi and Sasuke


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## Asura barracuda (Nov 22, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Now Kakashi and Sasuke


 
I'm only doing for itachi alone.


He's the one with the most skill and hype here.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> I get the Quincy powers since those powers originally came from him.
> 
> Besides the soul king and quincies, was there anyone else that Yhwach absorbed? I don't get why he failed to absorb Ichibei


He didn’t fail, Ichibei just used his own broken shit to take them back.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Steven (Nov 22, 2022)

Can someone tells me how Ichibei got killed?Yhwach took his move and somehow Ichibei got splattert into several pieces.Yhwach didnt move a single muscle at all


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> I get the Quincy powers since those powers originally came from him.
> Besides the soul king and quincies, was there anyone else that Yhwach absorbed? I don't get why *he failed to absorb Ichibei*



He also grabbed the Hollow powers alongside them too, forgot that.* Also he succeeded*, just cannot keep it, which is a feat for Ichibei as all "Black" is his. He is some weird guy who according to the lore was literally born out of darkness or "black" or something along those lines. He is the only one to get it back like that. TLDR, Ichibei used his own broken hax to get em back

Scans of him also absording SK and Mimihagi


Some scans of him restoring power to himself when it's lost because lolwhynot. 





Steven said:


> Can someone tells me how Ichibei got killed?Yhwach took his move and somehow Ichibei got splattert into several pieces.Yhwach didnt move a single muscle at all


Either TK or Almighty to bring a future where he killed him or attacked him to the present, he did so with Ichigo too. Well within his abilities.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> He didn’t fail, Ichibei just used his own broken shit to take them back.


That broken shit couldn't be absorbed? Because I saw the post where it was stated Yhwach stole *all powers* from Ichibei. I'm just questioning that post.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> He also grabbed the Hollow powers alongside them too, forgot that.


Sorry, explain further.


WhiskeyThan said:


> *Also he succeeded*, just cannot keep it, which is a feat for Ichibei as all "Black" is his. He is some weird guy who according to the lore was literally born out of darkness or "black" or something along those lines. He is the only one to get it back like that. TLDR, Ichibei used his own broken hax to get em back


That's still a limit to Yhwach's absorption. Ichibei could still use inherent abilities.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> That broken shit couldn't be absorbed? Because I saw the post where it was stated Yhwach stole *all powers* from Ichibei. I'm just questioning that post.


Ichibei has some sort of weird fundamental metaphysical connection with “black” or “darkness” that Sankt Altar couldn’t overcome.  Any character with a similar sort of connection with their power would also be safe.  Anything with more mundane origins should be fair game.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 22, 2022)

No idea what to tell you. Yhwach tried to steal his powers, he thought he failed. Ichibei kindly told him he succeeded, but that they will never belong to him. Coneptual hax man, it's busted in verse. He names all Zanpakuto, knows the name of everything, can come back to life from his name, is basically the second oldest being in existence as he witness the SK being de-limbed. Made Shikai, made Bankai have the significance they do.

Yet he entirely took in the Soul King, Mimihagi and the other powers he stole. This is a feat for Ichibei. Dude is just busted.



kayz said:


> Sorry, explain further.


As for this, Hollows are the antithesis to Quincy powers. They are not Quincy powers and the origin of them had nothing to do with Yhwach. You could argue that they did pass into Ichigo through his mother *and *father since his mom was the Hollowfication target, but that Hollow fused with the Shinigami powers as it went into him. Zangetsu is that hollow mixed with Shinigami powers.

So in the end he is taking something that is not Quincy related alongside the quincy stuff.


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## BossKitten (Nov 22, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> I'm only doing for itachi alone.
> 
> 
> He's the one with the most skill and hype here.



So then it's not some super common thing I assume? 

Also, I'm not even sure what the mind control thing even has to do with Aizen's effectiveness with illusion, lol.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Ichibei has some sort of weird fundamental metaphysical connection with “black” or “darkness” that Sankt Altar couldn’t overcome.  Any character with a similar sort of connection with their power would also be safe.  Anything with more mundane origins should be fair game.


You can't give some vague explanation and expect me to swallow it. 

As far as I've seen in-verse, the only powers Yhwach has stolen inherent to an individual are Quincy powers that come from him. Even said _*'it's time that the powers that I so generously granted you be returned to its owner" *_while stealing Ichigo's powers.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> As for this, Hollows are the antithesis to Quincy powers. They are not Quincy powers and the origin of them had nothing to do with Yhwach. You could argue that they did pass into Ichigo through his mother *and *father since his mom was the Hollowfication target, but that Hollow fused with the Shinigami powers as it went into him. Zangetsu is that hollow mixed with Shinigami powers.
> 
> So in the end he is taking something that is not Quincy related alongside the quincy stuff.


Yhwach specifically stated what he took which is the Quincy powers. I doubt Yhwach took the hollow powers alongside the Quincy powers. More like the hollow powers extinguished since it was anchored to his Quincy powers.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> You can't give some vague explanation and expect me to swallow it.
> 
> As far as I've seen in-verse, the only powers Yhwach has stolen inherent to an individual are Quincy powers that come from him. Even said _*'it's time that the powers that I so generously granted you be returned to its owner" *_while stealing Ichigo's powers.


It doesn’t go into much more detail then that.  Whatever the explanation, you can’t get around the fact that Ichibei himself admits that Yhwach succeeded in taking his Shinigami powers.  It was only because of his own hax resistance that he got them back.  So the “he can only take Quincy powers” argument doesn’t hold water.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> It doesn’t go into much more detail then that.  Whatever the explanation, you can’t get around the fact that Ichibei himself admits that Yhwach succeeded in taking his Shinigami powers.  It was only because of his own hax resistance that he got them back.  So the “he can only take Quincy powers” argument doesn’t hold water.


I've never argued against Yhwach stealing abilities, I'm arguing there's a limit to that power steal.
As far as I understand it, powers inherent to someone's existence/DNA can't be stolen. The shinigami abilities, Bankai/Shikai aren't even inherent to their DNA since it comes from the Zanpaktou.


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> I've never argued against Yhwach stealing abilities, I'm arguing there's a limit to that power steal.
> As far as I understand it, powers inherent to someone's existence/DNA can't be stolen. The shinigami abilities, Bankai/Shikai aren't even inherent to their DNA since it comes from the Zanpaktou.


Zanpakuto are made from their own souls, imprinted onto Asauchi.


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## kayz (Nov 22, 2022)

Rift said:


> Zanpakuto are made from their own souls, imprinted onto Asauchi.


Explain further, please


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## Rift (Nov 22, 2022)

kayz said:


> Explain further, please


Asauchi are special souls created by Nimaiya that are forged into blades and wielded by Shinigami.  As the Shinigami fight with these blades their souls are imprinted onto them, and they take on various forms depending on the wielder.  It’s about as inherent to one’s existence as you can get.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 23, 2022)

what I miss?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## accountmaker (Nov 23, 2022)

let's see


Bad Wolf said:


> With an unknown genjutsu, we don't have any information on how he did and if he had limitation or else. On top of that, that's straight up mind control, even Pepe or Zommari can do stuff like that, that doesn't mean that they're better than KS.
> You're just trying to do some random powerscaling now, just because a Genjutsu can inflict pain that doesn't mean that something like Kotoamatsukami can do the same.
> 
> Controlling people it's not illusion, it's a different power.
> ...


Tl;dr


Rift said:


> They were under the spell for 100 years, just because he might not have been actively warping their senses 100% of the time doesn't change that.
> 
> I'm applying a limit to Genjutsu because it's never been shown to affect a character who can see nigh infinite possible futures yes. You still haven't addressed the fact that without knowlege of the almighty the Genjutsu caster wouldn't even know to try and obscure all those visions of the future? They wouldn't try to obscure something they don't even know is there.


You've yet to to address the fact that genjutsu can control people or what yhwach can do about it. In fact you never did despite me mentioning it several times. You never posted the scan I asked for in order to get a better understanding of the kyoka suigetsu feat in question. I'll take that as a sign of your concession, which I gladly accept.


BossKitten said:


> Cool. Where are Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara mind control feats over people?





> itachi did that to a hooker and had her seduce Jiraiya. Madara literally takes control of the fucking 9 tails. I don't remember any specific feats for kakashi or sasuke, but I know the latter casually entered Naruto's inner world to fuck with him. This was beginning of shippuden Sasuke with the normal Sharingan. Both Sasuke and Kakashi have casual feats of knocking people out with genjutsu, which is again something kyoka suigetsu can't do. It baffles to what lengths people will go to downplay Naruto and wank bleach


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## Rift (Nov 23, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> let's see
> 
> Tl;dr
> 
> You've yet to to address the fact that genjutsu can control people or what yhwach can do about it. In fact you never did despite me mentioning it several times. You never posted the scan I asked for in order to get a better understanding of the kyoka suigetsu feat in question. I'll take that as a sign of your concession, which I gladly accept.


Wach has heavily implied resistance to mind control hax as stated in the novel, I linked the passage a few pages ago.  Idk if the KS issue is you being obtuse or trolling but either way I’m not playing along.  Still haven’t gotten an answer for how a genjutsu caster would counter the almighty when they don’t even know what it is or how it works.  Thoroughly bored of this argument though, it’s all irrelevant since he bodies the verse anyway.


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## kiranarusaku9738 (Nov 23, 2022)

The average genjutsu does what KS does rather casually. Sense manipulation, pain, time perception, etc


Rift said:


> Wach has heavily implied resistance to mind control hax as stated in the novel, I linked the passage a few pages ago.  Idk if the KS issue is you being obtuse or trolling but either way I’m not playing along.  Still haven’t gotten an answer for how a genjutsu caster would counter the almighty when they don’t even know what it is or how it works.  Thoroughly bored of this argument though, it’s all irrelevant since he bodies the verse anyway.


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## accountmaker (Nov 23, 2022)

Rift said:


> Wach has heavily implied resistance to mind control hax as stated in the novel, I linked the passage a few pages ago.  Idk if the KS issue is you being obtuse or trolling but either way I’m not playing along.  Still haven’t gotten an answer for how a genjutsu caster would counter the almighty when they don’t even know what it is or how it works.  Thoroughly bored of this argument though, it’s all irrelevant since he bodies the verse anyway.


Man shut the fuck up


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## kayz (Nov 23, 2022)

Rift said:


> Wach has heavily implied resistance to mind control hax as stated in the novel, I linked the passage a few pages ago.  Idk if the KS issue is you being obtuse or trolling but either way I’m not playing along.  Still haven’t gotten an answer for how a genjutsu caster would counter the almighty when they don’t even know what it is or how it works.  Thoroughly bored of this argument though, it’s all irrelevant since he bodies the verse anyway.


It's possibly implied so can't be used in a battle because Yhwach has not the direct feats


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 23, 2022)

By the way, worth noting "The Love" was a power made from Yhwach's soul and given to Pepe. Not sure if Pepe is immune to his own ability, but yeah. He made that mind control Schrift. Might mean fuck all though.


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## Rift (Nov 23, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> By the way, worth noting "The Love" was a power made from Yhwach's soul and given to Pepe. Not sure if Pepe is immune to his own ability, but yeah. He made that mind control Schrift. Might mean fuck all though.


I mean the fact that he could neg Ichibei's ridiculous reality warping shit with the almighty should make it a pretty safe bet that he could neg The Love and similar mind hax.


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## Lurko (Nov 23, 2022)

Isshiki shrinks himself and then goes in Yeehaw's brain and becomes big again while in there or he could place a karma and Isshiki becomes even witn letting Yeehaw become him.

Reactions: Creative 1 | Optimistic 2


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## accountmaker (Nov 23, 2022)

Lurko said:


> Isshiki shrinks himself and then goes in Yeehaw's brain and becomes big again while in there or he could place a karma and Isshiki becomes even witn letting Yeehaw become him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 23, 2022)

The ant man maneuver


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## Lurko (Nov 23, 2022)

He could do it.


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## Steven (Nov 23, 2022)

Lurko said:


> Isshiki shrinks himself and then goes in Yeehaw's brain and becomes big again while in there or he could place a karma and Isshiki becomes even witn letting Yeehaw become him.


Isshiki=Ant man?


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## Lurko (Nov 23, 2022)

Ask Jigen.


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## Lurko (Nov 23, 2022)

Steven said:


> Isshiki=Ant man?


Never said but he shrink and go to the brain. Example was Jigen.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 23, 2022)

Yhwach just TKs his small ass off into the ether.

Fuck Isshiki, not that the Ant Man expand method could perm kill Yhwach anyway

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lurko (Nov 23, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Yhwach just TKs his small ass off into the ether.
> 
> Fuck Isshiki, not that the Ant Man expand method could perm kill Yhwach anyway


He places Karma on him.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 23, 2022)

Lurko said:


> He places Karma on him.


Something something, alter the very future.

 

Fucking Yhwach man, why Kubo. WHY


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## Lurko (Nov 23, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Something something, alter the very future.
> 
> 
> 
> Fucking Yhwach man, why Kubo. WHY


I don't think so. If Ichoe was able to make him his bitch then it's over for Yeehaw.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 23, 2022)

Lurko said:


> I don't think so. If Ichoe was able to make him his bitch then it's over for Yeehaw.


He had a plot arrow shot into his heart to de-activate Almighty.
By a guy who was stated to be a natural counter to Almighty by reversing events.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lurko (Nov 23, 2022)

At the end of the day, It's two characters who get wanked.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Rift (Nov 23, 2022)

wait are you actually not memeing 

Moustache negged being reality warped into an ant as if Isshiki's nonsnese could do anything


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## BossKitten (Nov 24, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> let's see
> 
> Tl;dr
> 
> You've yet to to address the fact that genjutsu can control people or what yhwach can do about it. In fact you never did despite me mentioning it several times. You never posted the scan I asked for in order to get a better understanding of the kyoka suigetsu feat in question. I'll take that as a sign of your concession, which I gladly accept.



Sasuke messing with Naruto's inner world has more to do with sharingan's effect over bijuu than anything else from what I can tell. Putting people fodder to sleep with genjutsu is nice, but the only thing you guys have shown so far is diversity, not more power.


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Sasuke messing with Naruto's inner world has more to do with sharingan's effect over bijuu than anything else from what I can tell. Putting people fodder to sleep with genjutsu is nice, but the only thing you guys have shown so far is diversity, not more power.


The downplay is insane. The sharingan has no "effect over bijuu", it enhances genjutsu prowess. What power does KS have? Anyone who's seen it awaken is susceptible to it; that's it. It's why aizen could fuck with the vizards but couldn't do shit to ichigo. It has nothing to do with the ks' power. And no one was able to prove the timeline shit meant anything


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 25, 2022)

“Couldn’t do shit to Ichigo”

He didn’t show him it on purpose, which also helped against Yhwach.

Ichigo is vulnerable to KS like everyone else.


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> “Couldn’t do shit to Ichigo”
> 
> He didn’t show him it on purpose, which also helped against Yhwach.
> 
> Ichigo is vulnerable to KS like everyone else.


Didn't say he wasn't. In order for someone to be affected by ks they need to see it awaken or release first, then they become vulnerable to its effects. He couldn't put ichigo under hypnosis because that latter had never seen it release. That's why he was able to see through aizen's shit in FKT

Reactions: Like 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 25, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Didn't say he wasn't. In order for someone to be affected by ks they need to see it awaken or release first, then they become vulnerable to its effects. He couldn't put ichigo under hypnosis because that latter had never seen it release. That's why he was able to see through aizen's shit in FKT


We know this.

EOS Aizen is his Zanpakuto, you only need to look at his body, not even his eyes.

Depending on the Aizen, it’s legit easier to put people under than Genjutsu which needs eyes depending.

Obv they have sound based ones like vs Pain, but it’s a lot stronger for Aizen eos


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## Steven (Nov 25, 2022)

EoS Aizen>EoS Ichigo is pretty clear IMO

Ichigo has the rawpower while Aizen has better hax


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> We know this.
> 
> EOS Aizen is his Zanpakuto, you only need to look at his body, not even his eyes.
> 
> ...


Then don't bring it up. Itachi can put people under genjutsu by pointing at them. It doesn't matter how "easy" it is. That's not what we're discussing, don't shift the goal posts.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 25, 2022)

What is being discussed is silly anyway because Genjutsu could never cover unlimited futures with illusions.

It has shown nothing close to that, Aizen has.

Just a feats game


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 25, 2022)

Still funny as fuck to discuss Genjutsu when it's an Isshiki thread too.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## BossKitten (Nov 25, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> The downplay is insane. The sharingan has no "effect over bijuu", it enhances genjutsu prowess. What power does KS have? Anyone who's seen it awaken is susceptible to it; that's it. It's why aizen could fuck with the vizards but couldn't do shit to ichigo. It has nothing to do with the ks' power. And no one was able to prove the timeline shit meant anything



There is no downplay. We know that the Bijuu are weak against the Uchiha, just like they are against Hashirama. Any top tier Uchiha could screw a Bijuu over. Heck, Madara basically enslaved them. Also, being better diverse doesn't mean you're more powerful overall or that you're more powerful in every category. MMA vs. Boxing is an easy example for people to understand.

It's also funny how you talk about "The downplay is insane" as you're downplaying KS more than anyone is downplaying anything in this thread. KS is complete hypnosis. It controls all of your senses including time, and your ability to read/sense energy. While under it you don't know who is who, you don't know how much time is passing, you don't know if what you're seeing, hearing, smelling, etc are real. Your family can be getting murdered right in front of you, while somoene holds a gun to your head and you'll think its teatime with carebears.

Why would anyone need to prove that KS messing with the precog of someone that can balance all the souls in multiple realms, cancel other people's abilities, see into countless futures, and rewrite the future need to explain how it makes KS broken, unless you're being bias beyond belief?

I'll help people who aren't trying to be bias understand...

KS worked on SK Bach. At this point he has the power to sense and control all of the souls in Soul Society, the world of the living, and possibly HM. The Almighty lets him see into countless futures where he can witness and sense powers and abilities, then negate them in the present.

For KS to have worked on The Almighty didn't just change what Bach seen in countless futures, it had to also effect his ability to sense, and his ability to negate KS repeatedly in countless futures. While the target was one person, KS had to effect millions of precog situations completely at one time across several potential realities.

KS vs. MS for an example is potency vs. diversity. Sasuke might be able to do more things with his MS, but that doesn't mean his illusions are nearly as strong. KS has a specialized purpose like a sniper riffle. MS is an all-purpose shotgun.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> There is no downplay. We know that the Bijuu are weak against the Uchiha, just like they are against Hashirama. Any top tier Uchiha could screw a Bijuu over. Heck, Madara basically enslaved them. Also, being better diverse doesn't mean you're more powerful overall or that you're more powerful in every category. MMA vs. Boxing is an easy example for people to understand.
> 
> It's also funny how you talk about "The downplay is insane" as you're downplaying KS more than anyone is downplaying anything in this thread. KS is complete hypnosis. It controls all of your senses including time, and your ability to read/sense energy. While under it you don't know who is who, you don't know how much time is passing, you don't know if what you're seeing, hearing, smelling, etc are real. Your family can be getting murdered right in front of you, while somoene holds a gun to your head and you'll think its teatime with carebears.
> 
> ...


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> What is being discussed is silly anyway because Genjutsu could never cover unlimited futures with illusions.
> 
> It has shown nothing close to that, Aizen has.
> 
> Just a feats game


Still waiting for someone to post the actual damn feat to prove whether or not it "covered infinite timelines" or why that matters when most genjutsu users can either control yhwach or knock him out.


WhiskeyThan said:


> Still funny as fuck to discuss Genjutsu when it's an Isshiki thread too.


Better than the actual match

Reactions: Like 2


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 25, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Still waiting for someone to post the actual damn feat to prove whether or not it "covered infinite timelines" or why that matters when most genjutsu users can either control yhwach or knock him out.


It is 1 + 1 = 2 logic. Yhwach can see all futures, he did not see anything correctly in the future once KS was released. Including the "actually not Renji" and "Actually not Ichigo" and also had no idea the real Ichigo was behind him about to Getsuga him.

If he could not cover the visions of the future with falsehoods, the entire scene would not work. So...




accountmaker said:


> Better than the actual match


True

Reactions: Like 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> It is 1 + 1 = 2 logic. Yhwach can see all futures, he did not see anything correctly in the future once KS was released. Including the "actually not Renji" and "Actually not Ichigo" and also had no idea the real Ichigo was behind him about to Getsuga him.
> 
> If he could not cover the visions of the future with falsehoods, the entire scene would not work. So...
> 
> ...


So KS affected his perception, which in turn changed how he viewed the timelines. KS didn't have to go and alter his perception of each individual timeline, just his perception in general. Genjutsu has feats of creating whole ass realities for people anyway.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

Iirc in the chuunin exams alone some fodder examiner altered the floor number for every single person there. He didn't even have to look into their eyes or anything


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## Rift (Nov 25, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> It is 1 + 1 = 2 logic. Yhwach can see all futures, he did not see anything correctly in the future once KS was released. Including the "actually not Renji" and "Actually not Ichigo" and also had no idea the real Ichigo was behind him about to Getsuga him.
> 
> If he could not cover the visions of the future with falsehoods, the entire scene would not work. So...
> 
> ...


don't bother with this guy he has some weird genjutsu fanboner

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Steven (Nov 25, 2022)

N1gga still debating on Genjutsu when Isshiki dont has it.Srsly,wtf

Reactions: Winner 3


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## accountmaker (Nov 25, 2022)

Rift said:


> don't bother with this guy he has some weird genjutsu fanboner


You're jizzing over Bleach in general

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Daio (Nov 26, 2022)

What an asinine thread.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 26, 2022)

Another thing that stupid about the genjutsu talk (other than Isshiki not having it from what I understand) is that Bach would just negate it. If there is a future where he gets put in a genjutsu, he'd negate it in the present, or make sure the event doesn't ever take place (like he did with Ichigo). 

Bach was effected by KS before Bach got The Almightly and is the only skill he wasn't shown to negate.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## SSMG (Nov 26, 2022)

Yeah genjutsu would be instantly broken by anyone with a Bankai via partner method and also wouldn't affect the shinigamis higher senses to begin with, which KS does. 

Not even close to being the same tier.


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## kiranarusaku9738 (Nov 26, 2022)

SSMG said:


> Yeah genjutsu would be instantly broken by anyone with a Bankai via partner method and also wouldn't affect the shinigamis higher senses to begin with, which KS does.
> 
> Not even close to being the same tier.


No it wouldn't. Breaking a genjutsu via the partner method only works if you know someone is under the genjustu.


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## SSMG (Nov 26, 2022)

kiranarusaku9738 said:


> No it wouldn't. Breaking a genjutsu via the partner method only works if you know someone is under the genjustu.


Which they would know instantly that they're in an illusion as their 5 regular senses would be affected but their soul sensing and other soul based senses would not. 

Which are affected by KS. 

They're not even close.


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 26, 2022)

Tbf, was stated that the partner method is ineffective against Tsukuyomi. Granted, Genjutsu is irrelevant to this thread & arguing in an Isshiki Yhwach thread is next level self hate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 26, 2022)

Bach doesn't need the partner method. If your ability effects him in the future, then he can negate it in the present. The only acception would be something that he has a 0% chance of avoiding, like being speed blitzed by The Flash.


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## SSMG (Nov 26, 2022)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Tbf, was stated that the partner method is ineffective against Tsukuyomi. Granted, Genjutsu is irrelevant to this thread & arguing in an Isshiki Yhwach thread is next level self hate.


Was just speaking of genjutsu in general. 

But also isn't the mental space the Bankai partners access with the host, a seperate space time where time doesn't flow the same there?


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## kiranarusaku9738 (Nov 26, 2022)

SSMG said:


> Which they would know instantly that they're in an illusion as their 5 regular senses would be affected but their soul sensing and other soul based senses would not.
> 
> Which are affected by KS.
> 
> They're not even close.


Regular genjustu does the same. Complete mind control along with extra sensory perception is also affected by genjutsu.


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## SSMG (Nov 26, 2022)

When has genjustu been shown to affect soul sensing abilities?


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## BossKitten (Nov 26, 2022)

kiranarusaku9738 said:


> Regular genjustu does the same. Complete mind control along with extra sensory perception is also affected by genjutsu.



Itach's genjutsu was specifically praised by Danzo because of its time related abilities. We've also seen people aware that they're in a genjutsu and break it through pain. You guys are wilding with this regular genjutsu talk.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 26, 2022)

Except we also have many examples of people being unaware they're in a genjutsu included most of the main cast sans sasuke during the chuunin exams, and many mangekyo sharingan users can mimic tsukuyomi's can't break out of genjutsu" shit. "soul sensing" amounts to chakra sensing which means jackshit to genjutsu. I could go on. Hell equalizing zanpakto with bijuu is ridiculous since they've never shown the ability to snap their partners out of anything. We also have Obito fucking with the mizukage, Madara literally taking control of the damn 9 tails etc


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## BossKitten (Nov 26, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Except we also have many examples of people being unaware they're in a genjutsu included most of the main cast sans sasuke during the chuunin exams, and many mangekyo sharingan users can mimic tsukuyomi's can't break out of genjutsu" shit. "soul sensing" amounts to chakra sensing which means jackshit to genjutsu. I could go on. Hell equalizing zanpakto with bijuu is ridiculous since they've never shown the ability to snap their partners out of anything. We also have Obito fucking with the mizukage, Madara literally taking control of the damn 9 tails etc



None of this matters. Bach simply sees a future where he is put under a genjutsu and negs it. Soul sensing as the Soul King means it should be nearly impossible to mistake people.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 26, 2022)

Seems like everyone is remembering bits of how stuff like this work.
The partner method is said by , this is true. But it's not like it's true for every ocular genjutsu/stuff like this, Sasuke used his MS against Bee    but he managed to escape with the .
The difference is that Itachi can manipulate time perception, , so even if Itachi's genjutsu hit you for 1 second, the partner doesn't have time.
Other weak point of genjutsu are that...  or even if .

Chakra/reiatsu/energy sensing is extremely useful because in naruto  (not going to post every scan even for that shit) . In Bleach , sense the souls or their energy (while in Naruto at best they sense just chakra), they're so used to it that  (or Tousen as other example) and in .
On top of this, Shinigami's zampakuto have some , so they could be useful even against Itachi's fast genjutsu.

And again, comparing mind manipulation with KS is useless, it's a different power and specific for a few technique (and some of them weren't even used on panel).
KS altered Bach perception, and he's way beyond all the energy/soul sensing that every other Bleach's character has, plus time perception, future sight and many other stuff

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## accountmaker (Nov 26, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> None of this matters. Bach simply sees a future where he is put under a genjutsu and negs it. Soul sensing as the Soul King means it should be nearly impossible to mistake people.


yes it does because we know that people can be unknowingly put under genjutsu, and we know that yhwach can be affected by illusions. He wouldn't know he was under a genjutsu to break out of. Not that hard


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## Rift (Nov 26, 2022)

Any Naruto character of note can unknowingly have their head popped like a balloon by mustache's TK before Genjutsu even becomes a question.


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## Steven (Nov 26, 2022)

KS>Genjutsu

Simple

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> KS>Genjutsu
> 
> Simple



*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 2


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## BossKitten (Nov 26, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Seems like everyone is remembering bits of how stuff like this work.
> The partner method is said by , this is true. But it's not like it's true for every ocular genjutsu/stuff like this, Sasuke used his MS against Bee    but he managed to escape with the .
> The difference is that Itachi can manipulate time perception, , so even if Itachi's genjutsu hit you for 1 second, the partner doesn't have time.
> Other weak point of genjutsu are that...  or even if .
> ...



You're doing the good lord's work.


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## BossKitten (Nov 26, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> yes it does because we know that people can be unknowingly put under genjutsu, and we know that yhwach can be affected by illusions. He wouldn't know he was under a genjutsu to break out of. Not that hard



So you honestly believe that Bach is going to see countless futures, and not notice that a genjutsu is used in one of those said futures, and then go through with the future that fits this scenario perfectly? 

Ok, cool.


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## accountmaker (Nov 26, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> So you honestly believe that Bach is going to see countless futures, and not notice that a genjutsu is used in one of those said futures, and then go through with the future that fits this scenario perfectly?
> 
> Ok, cool.


Yhwach's mind will be controlled; he won't be able to do shit


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## Steven (Nov 26, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Yhwach's mind will be controlled; he won't be able to do shit


Dude has top-notch pre-cog.Genjutsus will never land on him

And again,show us Isshiki have Genjutsu in the first place


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## Rift (Nov 26, 2022)

Steven said:


> Dude has top-notch pre-cog.Genjutsus will never land on him
> 
> And again,show us Isshiki have Genjutsu in the first place


no u don't get it genujutsu controls the mind that means they can read yuhas mind and stop him from reading the future cuz he won't even know he's under genjutsu bro


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## Lurko (Nov 26, 2022)

Wtf is wrong with some of you?

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Kingdom Come (Nov 26, 2022)

Why the fuck is Genjutsu even being talked about

Does Isshiki have it or not???

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lurko (Nov 26, 2022)

Kingdom Come said:


> Why the fuck is Genjutsu even being talked about
> 
> Does Isshiki have it or not???


He hasn't even showed it but he should have it so I don't blame them for thinking he does.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Lurko said:


> He hasn't even showed it but he should have it so I don't blame them for thinking he does.


Nobody thinks ishiki has genjutsu, even though he should. The topic of genjutsu was brought up and I decided to debate it because quite frankly it's more interesting than the matchup itself

Reactions: Agree 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> no u don't get it genujutsu controls the mind that means they can read yuhas mind and stop him from reading the future cuz he won't even know he's under genjutsu bro


Exactly. Minus the sarcasm

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## Lurko (Nov 27, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Nobody thinks ishiki has genjutsu, even though he should. The topic of genjutsu was brought up and I decided to debate it because quite frankly it's more interesting than the matchup itself


Not debating that.


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## shieldbounce (Nov 27, 2022)

Yhwach's moustache is epic enough for an automatic win here...aside from existing in a superior manga because Boruto is straight up trash material.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 27, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Yhwach's mind will be controlled; he won't be able to do shit



Nope. Unless they plan on going to the past to attempt a genjutsu, then it is a future event. They're not doing anything.

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Nope. Unless they plan on going to the past to attempt a genjutsu, then it is a future event. They're not doing anything.


Yes they are doing something, that thing being "put yhwach under genjutsu". Fucker has been hit by enough attacks, none of them being mind control which he has no answer to


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

no nardo character has an answer for getting their heads ripped the fuck off with TK lmao


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> no nardo character has an answer for getting their heads ripped the fuck off with TK lmao


No bleach character has an answer to getting their minds fucked by genjutsu lmao


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Nope. Unless they plan on going to the past to attempt a genjutsu, then it is a future event. They're not doing anything.


He's not capable of comprehending that genjutsu users wouldn't think to cover senses that they don't even know exist it's not worth engaging.


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> He's not capable of comprehending that genjutsu users wouldn't think to cover senses that they don't even know exist it's not worth engaging.


Genjutsu automatically does that and you're nitpicking in an attempt to downplay it. There are no senses yhwach has that it can't affect, and as mentioned genjutsu can create entire realities


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

automatic omniscient genjutsu

yeah like I said not worth engaging, unless the guy can post a scan of Genjutsu affecting new senses that the user isn't even aware his/her opponent has


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## SSMG (Nov 27, 2022)

Genjutsu was stated to affect the brain and the 5 senses. Never once said anything about soul sensing.  Let alone shown to affect timeline precog sensing abilities.


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## JayDox (Nov 27, 2022)

Ishikki should have the Kara communication genjutsu. Not really a combat ability

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 27, 2022)

If Ywach didn't know he was under a genjutsu, how would he know to use almighty to change the future? After he gained the SK's power, didn't he lose because he failed to recognize he was still under KS? (Though, not that it matters because Isshiki doesn't have a genjutsu that affects the opponent without their knowledge)


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> If Ywach didn't know he was under a genjutsu, how would he know to use almighty to change the future? After he gained the SK's power, didn't he lose because he failed to recognize he was still under KS? (Though, not that it matters because Isshiki doesn't have a genjutsu that affects the opponent without their knowledge)


He lost because he ignored the future where Uryu's arrow removed all his powers.  Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu stopped working after he rewrote his own death.  Genjutu would at best only be able to distort the reality he's currently looking at, not all the potential realities he can see with the Almighty.  Even if he was put under it, he would just see the future where the Genjutsu results in some undesirable outcome and hop to another future.


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> He lost because he ignored the future where Uryu's arrow removed all his powers.  Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu stopped working after he rewrote his own death.  Genjutu would at best only be able to distort the reality he's currently looking at, not all the potential realities he can see with the Almighty.  Even if he was put under it, he would just see the future where the Genjutsu results in some undesirable outcome and hop to another future.


Okay, maybe I'm just confused about what the Almighty does. Is it a constant passive effect that's always finding Ywach a preferable outcome even if he himself is unable to act? Or does he need to manually activate it?


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Okay, maybe I'm just confused about what the Almighty does. Is it a constant passive effect that's always finding Ywach a preferable outcome even if he himself is unable to act? Or does he need to manually activate it?


He can turn it on or off as he pleases.  Once it's on he's constantly seeing a countless number of potential futures and he can make real whichever one he wants.  It seems to have some passive elements seeing as it can literally bring him back from the dead or from being reality warped into an ant.


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> He can turn it on or off as he pleases.  Once it's on he's constantly seeing a countless number of potential futures and he can make real whichever one he wants.  It seems to have some passive elements seeing as it can literally bring him back from the dead or from being reality warped into an ant.


Okay, I gotcha. Thanks for explaining. Since it is passive as long as it's active, then Genjutsu wouldn't affect him because the ability would transfer to another time. Makes sense

Reactions: Like 1


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## kiranarusaku9738 (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> He lost because he ignored the future where Uryu's arrow removed all his powers.  Aizen's Kyoka Suigetsu stopped working after he rewrote his own death.  Genjutu would at best only be able to distort the reality he's currently looking at, not all the potential realities he can see with the Almighty.  Even if he was put under it, he would just see the future where the Genjutsu results in some undesirable outcome and hop to another future.


Genjutsu works my manipulating the targets chakra. If ywach gets a genjutsu cast on him it would alter his perception of all timelines.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

SSMG said:


> Genjutsu was stated to affect the brain and the 5 senses. Never once said anything about soul sensing.  Let alone shown to affect timeline precog sensing abilities.


We equalize "soul sensing" with chakra sensing, which genjutsu automatically covers. The fuck does timeline precog got to do with anything? Yhwach uses his ability to see other timelines, something he can't do if his mind's under control or his senses are affected. Genjutsu doesn't need to affect each individual timelime yhwach sees


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

kiranarusaku9738 said:


> Genjutsu works my manipulating the targets chakra. If ywach gets a genjutsu cast on him it would alter his perception of all timelines.


There is nothing to even vaguely indicate this.


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

kiranarusaku9738 said:


> Genjutsu works my manipulating the targets chakra. If ywach gets a genjutsu cast on him it would alter his perception of all timelines.


This is what the bleach brigade doesn't seem to get

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

any decent precog shits on Genjutsu in general, not just Yhwach's.  They'll see the future where some weird illusion is coming results in something bad for them and take measures to avoid whatever trapped them in it, to say nothing of Yhwach who can just neg it outright or hop to another timeline.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> any decent precog shits on Genjutsu in general,


No it doesn't


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> No it doesn't


yeah it does, any random fodder Jedi/Sith shits on Itachi, sorry bro


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> yeah it does, any random fodder Jedi/Sith shits on Itachi, sorry bro


Jedi have like galaxy wide mindfuck feats no shit. They shit on bleach as a whole too


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

okay wouldn't matter if stats were equalized they're still taking itachi's lunch money


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## SSMG (Nov 27, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> We equalize "soul sensing" with chakra sensing, which genjutsu automatically covers.


Eh it's more so that the opponents can be hit and land their moves. 
Genjutsu outright is a result of this.
 And I'm still saying it'll effect his 5 senses, just not senses it hasn't been shown to affect.
 And there is souls in Naruto which can be seen and sensed, so saying chakra sensing equals soul sensing doesn't cut it to me. 
Now Naruto being able to sense Limbo clones that act like ghosts, and are from another dimension? That's a different story. 


accountmaker said:


> The fuck does timeline precog got to do with anything? Yhwach uses his ability to see other timelines, something he can't do if his mind's under control or his senses are affected. Genjutsu doesn't need to affect each individual timelime yhwach sees


I don't think you're quite getting it.
 Yhwach's precog allows him to see and choose any and all possible futures and is active as soon as the fight starts.  Genjutsu needs to be applied to yhwach to effect him, and all the possible timelines. 

So it's go like this:
> Fight starts
>Yhwach has Almighty on and can see the opponent will try a subtle or outright genjutsu
>Yhwach chooses a future where this doesn't occur. 

The reason why Aizen was able to effect him was because he hit him with KS before he ever acquired Almighty.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> okay wouldn't matter if stats were equalized they're still taking itachi's lunch money


Even if you equalized stats, which is a dumb fucking concept, they'd still rape bleach and Itachi.



SSMG said:


> Eh it's more so that the opponents can be hit and land their moves.
> Genjutsu outright is a result of this.
> And I'm still saying it'll effect his 5 senses, just not senses it hasn't been shown to affect.
> And there is souls in Naruto which can be seen and sensed, so saying chakra sensing equals soul sensing doesn't cut it to me.
> ...


Bro you know i ain't reading all that. Soul sensing= chakra sensing, end of discussion. Yhwach future blablabla he can't see what he can't see. His senses get fucked up, he sees what his fucked up senses perceive. End of story. None of that matters  if he's mind controlled though

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## SSMG (Nov 27, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> His senses get fucked up, he sees what his fucked up senses perceive. End of story.


Nah. 

He'd see that he'd fall for a simple or subtle illusion trick, and just choose another future where that doesn't occur.


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Bro you know i ain't reading all that.


It's like two short paragraphs.  With an attention span like that that explains a lot.


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## Rift (Nov 27, 2022)

>precog sees into future of genjutsu illusion
>future is something bad
>select a future where bad thing doesn't happen and genjutsu isn't in effect, or just stop it from being cast in the first place
Not rocket science.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> He's not capable of comprehending that genjutsu users wouldn't think to cover senses that they don't even know exist it's not worth engaging.


Yeah, seems like he's purposely trying not to understand.



SoulOfCinder said:


> If Ywach didn't know he was under a genjutsu, how would he know to use almighty to change the future? After he gained the SK's power, didn't he lose because he failed to recognize he was still under KS? (Though, not that it matters because Isshiki doesn't have a genjutsu that affects the opponent without their knowledge)



The Almighty isn't just the ability to see the future, it's the ability to change fate. He negged death and negged his existence being completely removed by Ichibei. The only thing Bach would need to notice is that there is a future where he's acting different and then change that fate.

One of the reasons why KS works so well is because it isn't flashy. It doesn't make the person stop in their tracks, it doesn't change the way they act, it just is until he reveals what reality actually is.

People arguing against Bach have to hope and wish that he would somehow not notice anything odd in the future, and pick the perfect fate for him to fall under the genjutsu. Beyond that, they have to hope that he never realizes he's under a genjutsu because the moment he does, he'll negate it. If he's killed, he'll revive himself with more information about his enemy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> It's like two short paragraphs.  With an attention span like that that explains a lot.


Two too many paragraphs. Summarize it or shut up.


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## accountmaker (Nov 27, 2022)

Rift said:


> >precog sees into future of genjutsu illusion
> >future is something bad
> >select a future where bad thing doesn't happen and genjutsu isn't in effect, or just stop it from being cast in the first place
> Not rocket science.


He ain't seeing shit. He couldn't see all the attacks he got hit with, so he gets hit with genjutsu and it's GG. This also counts as a reply to @SSMG 's post

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> He ain't seeing shit. He couldn't see all the attacks he got hit with, so he gets hit with genjutsu and it's GG. This also counts as a reply to @SSMG 's post


Aizen was able to warp his perception of the future, that's an Aizen/KS feat.  Show me genjutsu effectively clouding the future sight of precog users and then we might have something.

Also it ain't GG if no one can't put the guy down.


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## SSMG (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> He ain't seeing shit. He couldn't see all the attacks he got hit with, so he gets hit with genjutsu and it's GG. This also counts as a reply to @SSMG 's post


No it doesn't, reading my post would know why. Aizen hit him with KS before he ever got Almighty.


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## SSMG (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> Aizen was able to warp his perception of the future, that's an Aizen/KS feat.


Also this. Genjutsu has never been shown to be used the way accountamker is saying it can be done.


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> Aizen was able to warp his perception of the future, that's an Aizen/KS feat.  Show me genjutsu effectively clouding the future sight of precog users and then we might have something.
> 
> Also it ain't GG if no one can't put the guy down.


No that's an illusion feat, one yhwach wasn't able to resist.



SSMG said:


> No it doesn't, reading my post would know why. Aizen hit him with KS before he ever got Almighty.


Yeah we know the bleach Stan's won't shut up about it.  Prove he can resist being affected by shit, especially illusions, an alteration of the senses and mind control with or without the all mighty. 


SSMG said:


> Also this. Genjutsu has never been shown to be used the way accountamker is saying it can be done.


It doesn't need to. 
Your argument is basically genjutsu needs to affect each and every timeline yhwach sees.
Mine is it doesn't, all it needs to do is affect yhwach's senses. His senses get fucked up, and he sees timelines based on those fucked up senses. In lieu of that, they control his mind and it's GG. You guys are acting like he's never been affected by anything since getting the all mighty. Not to mention, genjutsu can affect you without you noticing. It's not that hard.


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

The senses are affected to the extent that it aids in the creation of particular illusions in particular locations.  A lot of the time the illusion will just be making the opponent think you are somewhere where you're not, everything else is unaffected.  It's not a blanket effect nor has it ever been remotely implied to be, there's no reason to assume its active effect extends any further than has been actually shown.  Not to mention that it's only ever affected perception of the present.  Show scans of Genjutsu affecting someone with a 6th sense allowing them to see into the future like Yhwach.  I'll wait.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> No that's an illusion feat, one yhwach wasn't able to resist.



At this point he's either trolling, or stans Naruto so much that it blinds him from common sense.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 28, 2022)

kiranarusaku9738 said:


> Genjutsu works my manipulating the targets chakra. If ywach gets a genjutsu cast on him it would alter his perception of all timelines.


Genjutsu works by manipulating the targets chakra, that's how they do stuff. They never showed the ability to alter something like perception of timelines (or even something with that much awareness in general). Bach could easily detect genjutsu given that he can easily read chakra/reiatsu. And honestly, it's all a mater of energy manipulation being able to resist that


accountmaker said:


> We equalize "soul sensing" with chakra sensing, which genjutsu automatically covers.


Nah, we don't. Energy sensing is one thing, soul sensing is another. Bleach's character can do both.


accountmaker said:


> The fuck does timeline precog got to do with anything? Yhwach uses his ability to see other timelines, something he can't do if his mind's under control or his senses are affected. Genjutsu doesn't need to affect each individual timelime yhwach sees


Because he'll be able to see the future so even before the genjutsu lands on him? Duh.
And having more senses/powers/perception/stuff like this, makes more difficult to manipulate him. Using illusion on normal humans or on someone who can perceive timeline and have other special senses is not the same thing. Unless you think that using genjutsu on naruto or Galactus is the same thing.
Ywach has resistance to this, mind erasing stuff (early bleach stuff), mind control (pepe, zommari, zombie stern), illusions (aizen, aizen's kidou during the flashback arc)... he can even use his powers while dead, seems that genjutsu would be the least of his problems

Anyway it's pretty useless to argue with him. He fail even to read two paragraph, is constantly repeating the same argument and seems to be unable to understand the basic of Ywach power


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> The senses are affected to the extent that it aids in the creation of particular illusions in particular locations.  A lot of the time the illusion will just be making the opponent think you are somewhere where you're not, everything else is unaffected.  It's not a blanket effect nor has it ever been remotely implied to be, there's no reason to assume its active effect extends any further than has been actually shown.  Not to mention that it's only ever affected perception of the present.  Show scans of Genjutsu affecting someone with a 6th sense allowing them to see into the future like Yhwach.  I'll wait.


"particular illusions in particular locations" no, it affects the 5 senses and more to do whatever the caster wants, including causing pain or knocking the opponent out. I'm still waiting for your scans of KS's feat, but apparently it's non-existent. You guys keeps wanking yhwach and KS so hard it's not even funny. Come to think of it, Naruto was still of afraid of Itachi's genjutsu during the war arc and at that time he had access to both senjutsu sensing and "soul" sensing in his KCM1 form. So there you go. 



BossKitten said:


> At this point he's either trolling, or stans Naruto so much that it blinds him from common sense.


Some of y'all wanking yhwach to universe level, and you think i stan nads? Please. You all obstinately argue that genjutsu wouldn't be able to alter yhwach senses because it hasn't shown the ability to alter "timeline" sensing or whatever the fuck. that's irrelevant. Yhwach either would see fucked up timelines because his base senses were messed up, be knocked out or put under mind control. No one has even posted the scan of ks doing it's shit so I'm going to assume y'all are trolling too



Bad Wolf said:


> Nah, we don't. Energy sensing is one thing, soul sensing is another. Bleach's character can do both.


Uh, yes we do. But if you want to go that far, Naruto can do the soul sensing shit and he still didn't want smoke with edo Itachi's genjutsu. And why the hell would genjutsu put a strain on the user just because rhe opponent can see different timelines? People have literally put their opponents under genjutsu and walked away. Prove you need to actively change every single timeline yhawch sees to put him under hypnosis.

Applying arbitrary limits to an ability you don't like is the definition of downplay


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Uh, yes we do. But if you want to go that far, Naruto can do the soul sensing shit and he still didn't want smoke with edo Itachi's genjutsu.


No we don't. As we don't even equalized haki with other form of energy because it's different. Soul and energy are 2 different stuff.
You're talking about particular form of naruto, which never interacted with Itachi's genjutsu, we even know that even just sensing chakra give a huge help against genjutsu. Another big generalization without proof.


accountmaker said:


> And why the hell would genjutsu put a strain on the user just because rhe opponent can see different timelines? People have literally put their opponents under genjutsu and walked away.


Because he can watch other timeline/the future and change into other one? Because he has more senses that let him recognize illusions and stuff like this? Because affecting a normal human and someone like this isn't the same fate as you're implying?
Bach can see the future.
He will just see a future were (maybe) he will affected with an illusion.
He can simply change that future, even before getting hit by the genjutsu.


accountmaker said:


> Prove you need to actively change every single timeline yhawch sees to put him under hypnosis.


Lol? I already proved that Ywach have resistance to mind control, illusions mind erasure and other stuff.
You're not even understanding how his powers works, it doesn't even matter if he's straight up immune to genjutsu or not, he can simply use his power to change that future.


accountmaker said:


> Applying arbitrary limits to an ability you don't like is the definition of downplay


wanking genjutsu after even failing to remember the basic rules about it and trying to generalize genjutsu like "every single genjutsu can manipulate 5 sense, chakra sensor, time perception, mind, bank account and spacetime..." and you're even going on with this. Usual genjutsu wanking as 10 years ago

Reactions: Agree 1


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## kayz (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> >precog sees into future of genjutsu illusion
> >future is something bad
> >select a future where bad thing doesn't happen and genjutsu isn't in effect, or just stop it from being cast in the first place
> Not rocket science.


Remind Me why Yhwach didn't see the Plot Arrow?


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## BossKitten (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Some of y'all wanking yhwach to universe level, and you think i stan nads? Please. You all obstinately argue that genjutsu wouldn't be able to alter yhwach senses because it hasn't shown the ability to alter "timeline" sensing or whatever the fuck. that's irrelevant. Yhwach either would see fucked up timelines because his base senses were messed up, be knocked out or put under mind control. No one has even posted the scan of ks doing it's shit so I'm going to assume y'all are trolling too



1) Nobody cares about random people who may support universal Bach, as none of them seem to be here or arguing that case.

2) You wanting to grant genjutsu unseen feats is the definition of wank. 

3) Bach alters FATE, its far more than just precog. Unless your Naruto boys are going to travel back in time to attempt a genjutsu then you have to hope Bach picks a future where he's placed under one. The idea that he wouldn't see that he's being knocked out, mind controlled, etc shows the level of denial that you're in.


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> "particular illusions in particular locations" no, it affects the 5 senses and more to do whatever the caster wants, including causing pain or knocking the opponent out. I'm still waiting for your scans of KS's feat, but apparently it's non-existent. You guys keeps wanking yhwach and KS so hard it's not even funny. Come to think of it, Naruto was still of afraid of Itachi's genjutsu during the war arc and at that time he had access to both senjutsu sensing and "soul" sensing in his KCM1 form. So there you go.


No it can’t “do whatever the caster wants” it requires a high amount of skill&training to generate any illusions as is.  We can’t assume it can do more than particular users have actually shown to be capable of.  Being wary of doesn’t equate to having no counter for, nor does it mean he could affect those other senses, and even if it could neither of those senses are precognition.  That’s a reach if I’ve ever seen one, at least you tried.


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

kayz said:


> Remind Me why Yhwach didn't see the Plot Arrow?


He mistook the vision he had of his demise as a dream out of arrogance.


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## BossKitten (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> * Prove you need to actively change every single timeline yhawch sees to put him under hypnosis.*



This is also funny because if you don't actively change every timeline Bach sees, then you drastically increase his chances of not picking a fate where he is affected by genjutsu, lol.


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> This is also funny because if you don't actively change every timeline Bach sees, then you drastically increase his chances of not picking a fate where he is affected by genjutsu, lol.


He seems to think it has some sort of omnipresent quality where it will affect every single part of a persons perception with maximum efficiency with no limit whatsoever.  Universal Yhwach is conservative in comparison.


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 28, 2022)

Tbf, it has already been proven that there are genjutsu where the user is completely unaware that they are in a genjutsu.


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Tbf, it has already been proven that there are genjutsu where the user is completely unaware that they are in a genjutsu.


not sure what that has to do with what I said


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## kayz (Nov 28, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> This is also funny because if you don't actively change every timeline Bach sees, then you drastically increase his chances of not picking a fate where he is affected by genjutsu, lol.


Let me ask you, what makes you think Genjutsu can't alter whatever Yhwach sees, even his future sight?


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

kayz said:


> Let me ask you, what makes you think Genjutsu can't alter whatever Yhwach sees, even his future sight?


Because it’s never been shown to be able to anything like that, nor would his opponent even be aware that he has future sight in the first place.


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## kayz (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> Because it’s never been shown to be able to anything like that, nor would his opponent even be aware that he has future sight in the first place.


Now, I can turn this around and claim, KS wouldn't work on Naruto characters who can cancel genjutsu, because it hasn't been shown to work on anyone with illusion-resistance.
Is that acceptable based on that standard?


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> not sure what that has to do with what I said


What you said was that accountmaker thinks genjutsu has maximum efficiency over every single part of a person's perception without limits.

If a genjutsu is used against a target, and the target is unable to perceive that they are in a genjutsu,  then yes, it has control over all their senses. 

The without limits part... I mean, I don't know where to take a discussion over the limits of genjutsu in regards to a character that can manipulate reality to choose the optimal outcome. Based on the discussions we had yesterday with the Almighty being a passive ability separated from Ywach's senses, it sounds like that ability surpasses genjutsu


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> If a genjutsu is used against a target, and the target is unable to perceive that they are in a genjutsu,  then yes, it has control over all their senses.



That’s just a non sequitur, how does not being aware an illusion is being used against you indicate that it’s actively controlling warping every single aspect of your sensory perception?


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> That’s just a non sequitur, how does not being aware an illusion is being used against you indicate that it’s actively controlling warping every single aspect of your sensory perception?


Because this is literally what genjutsu in Naruto has been shown to do. Total control against the victims senses. Touch, smell, sight, taste, hearing. Itachi literally had someone live an entire life in a basic genjutsu. If their entire senses weren't being manipulated, some part of their consciousness would have been able to know, but they weren't.


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

Goddamn this is stupid. I know bleach fans are mentally challenged, but this is plain retarded.

@BossKitten @Rift @Bad Wolf 
Y'all keep rehashing the same shit as if it will make a difference. My point is that yhwach has never shown the ability to  resist mind control or mind fuck. He was affected by KS regardless of when it took place. KS doesn't work like a constant mind control thing. Whoever sees it release can be affected by it at a later date. that's it. Yhwach wouldn't have been immune to ks. Why? Because he wasn't immune to any attack that affected him. From what I remember he was scared shitless of ichigo raw strength bankai, couldn't break it himself and had to warp to a timelime where it was already broken. So even his supposed hax has limits to what it can do. The fact that he brought himself back to life meant he died, so he can be affected by shit. He was affected by ichibei, he was affected by KS, he was scared of ichigo, he was affected by uryu's plot induced reversal ability. Genjutsu would work on him just fine. What don't you people understand? 

Y'all keep saying KS affected his vision of each and every timeline as if that's a feat that genjutsu couldn't a. replicate, or b. need to replicate when it can just mind control him or knock him the fuck out. You guys think genjutsu NEEDS to affect his vision of each timeline, I don't think it does  when his base senses are affected. And even so, why would that be a problem? You actually think genjutsu puts a strain on the user depending on how many things the opponent "sees"? Is that your best fucking argument? This is some quora shit. Explains a lot, though.

this is like.my 4th time asking for a scan of he KS feat in question but no one provided it to my knowledge and at this point i don't care enough to go over it. I'm gonna assume you lot are bullshitting.

tl;dr genjutsu works on yhwach just fine

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1 | Old 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 28, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> This is also funny because if you don't actively change every timeline Bach sees, then you drastically increase his chances of not picking a fate where he is affected by genjutsu, lol.



I don't need to change your perception of every single object to blue to make you see everything as blue. I could just add a blue tint to your vision in total, a different and much easier way of approaching the same problem.

Aizen doesn't need to see every reality Yhwach see's to influence his perception of ALL realities simultaneously.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Because this is literally what genjutsu in Naruto has been shown to do. Total control against the victims senses. Touch, smell, sight, taste, hearing. Itachi literally had someone live an entire life in a basic genjutsu. If their entire senses weren't being manipulated, some part of their consciousness would have been able to know, but they weren't.


That doesn’t make sense, the whole point of illusions are that they’re meant blend in with perceived reality.  Whether or not you’re aware they’re being used on you says nothing as to how much of your actual perception is being warped.


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 28, 2022)

Rift said:


> That doesn’t make sense, the whole point of illusions are that they’re meant blend in with perceived reality.  Whether or not you’re aware they’re being used on you says nothing as to how much of your actual perception is being warped.


Okay, but again, Itachi had someone lived an entire life in a genjutsu. That means they thought every moment from the time the were put under the genjutsu to when they eventually died of old age, was real. Whenever they ate, slept, shat. And in reality, only seconds had passed. So, it's pretty clear that genjutsu warps the victims reality to an absurd amount

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

@accountmaker The Almighty isn’t “base” sense.  Provide scans of genjutsu directly fucking with future sight or go jerk off to Naruto somewhere else


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Goddamn this is stupid. I know bleach fans are mentally challenged, but this is plain retarded.


You're the one that doesn't even know how Yhwach's power or genjutsu work. You posted another message filled with stuff was already replied many times, how long will you go on with this genjutsu wank?



kayz said:


> Now, I can turn this around and claim, KS wouldn't work on Naruto characters who can cancel genjutsu, because it hasn't been shown to work on anyone with illusion-resistance.
> Is that acceptable based on that standard?


Point is, that they even have illusion resistance, for example when Aizen was hiding using some kido during the flashback.
But outside of that, it's not that easy. Genjutsu in naruto is a very specific thing, usually it works by disrupting the enemy's chakra and to break a genjutsu you've to stop that. KS doesn't do anything like that, he doesn't need to do anything to his enemy's energy, it's a straight up control of the senses. Then, some character might have feats for dealing with stuff like this, but it's not the same thing as dealing with genjutsu.


SoulOfCinder said:


> Itachi literally had someone live an entire life in a basic genjutsu


With tsukuyomi. Not a basic genjutsu. I'm Assuming that bringing them up means that they're canon


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 28, 2022)

Matters for fuck all anyway, spiritual sensing is not covered by Genjutsu.

It is by KS.

also even if EE covers this, wouldn’t flaring his power break him out anyway.

This was how the blind Tousen was able to go around fighting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> This is also funny because if you don't actively change every timeline Bach sees, then you drastically increase his chances of not picking a fate where he is affected by genjutsu, lol.





Rift said:


> @accountmaker The Almighty isn’t “base” sense.  Provide scans of genjutsu directly fucking with future sight or go jerk off to Naruto somewhere else





Bad Wolf said:


> You're the one that doesn't even know how Yhwach's power or genjutsu work. You posted another message filled with stuff was already replied many times, how long will you go on with this genjutsu wank?
> 
> 
> Point is, that they even have illusion resistance, for example when Aizen was hiding using some kido during the flashback.
> ...


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

yeah so mr goldfish attention span aside I don't think there's anything left to say here

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SSMG (Nov 28, 2022)

@accountmaker clearly isn't getting it. 

Genjutsu will never land, not even a subtle one. 

Because Yhwach will see that future of him being either outright manipulated. 

Or subtlely hit by genjutsu. 

And then he'll choose a different timeline where this doesn't happen. 

All before he's ever actually hit by said genjutsu. 

There is no alteration of his perception of timelines because he will change the timeline before he is ever hit. 

The reason why Aizen was able to effect Yhwach when he had Akmight was again. Because he cast KS on him before Yhwach acquired the Almighty. Which is something you have ignored again and again itt. 

When you ignore the piece of evidence that's shits on your entire point, yet keep arguing, you are trolling. 

Stop trolling.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 28, 2022)

Worth mentioning things in the past are not perceptible to Yhwach.

From Almighty Yhwach's perspective, he was put under KS in the past. This is one reason he cannot negate it. Like the past repaired Bankai of Ichigo resisting the future being altered to break it again.


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

SSMG said:


> @accountmaker clearly isn't getting it.
> 
> Genjutsu will never land, not even a subtle one.
> 
> ...


Why was yhwach able to get hit by anything at all if that were the case? Why was he hit by and/or scared of ichigo? why was ks able to affect him if he can see shit coming? Even if he didn't know he could be affected by ks he should've been able to see himself get affected at some point, and again, ks doesn't put it's targets under permanent hypnosis. It activates, and the target becomes susceptible to it in the future. The timing is irrelevant for the purposes of a vs debate when you consider the nature of kyoka suigetsu


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## SSMG (Nov 28, 2022)

Your fundamental mistake in that post is this.



accountmaker said:


> ks doesn't put it's targets under permanent hypnosis.


KS once casted on an opponent, lasts forever.

KS was casted before he acquired almighty, and thus it skewed with his visions he recieved from almighty.

Youre arguing that genjutsu will work on almighty after he has almighty because KS worked, like that. When that is incorrect.  Your core premise is outright wrong.


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

SSMG said:


> Your fundamental mistake in that post is this.
> 
> 
> KS once casted on an opponent, lasts forever.
> ...


Kyoka suigetsu isn't *actively* fucking with people's senses. All it does is make you susceptible to it once activated. More specifically, aizen needs to show you its release, then you become susceptible to its power. It's why ichigo wasn't affected by Ks during FKT despite aizen actively using it against everybody else. and you ignored everything else I said. why was anything able to affect yhwach if he can see everything coming?


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## SSMG (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Kyoka suigetsu isn't *actively* fucking with people's senses


What? KS once casted last on a victim for the rest of their life. If they come across Aizen again after this first contact, they can be put under. This is no different for Yhwach. 



accountmaker said:


> More specifically, aizen needs to show you its release, then you become susceptible to its power.


Not at the end of the series he doesn't. He absorbed his sword into himself and can cast it now with no sword. He did so to Yhwach specifically.... 



accountmaker said:


> and you ignored everything else I said. why was anything able to affect yhwach if he can see everything coming?


Yeah obvious troll is obvious. 

I've said the reason for this itt like 5 times which you've ignored everytime. 

Why don't you read my post, instead of asking me dumb shit which has been addressed. 

But because I know you won't because I know you're lazy..... 

He casted KS on Yhwach before he acquired The Almighty. 

Gunna ignore this again and keep trying to debate ahem I mean troll?


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 28, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Worth mentioning things in the past are not perceptible to Yhwach.
> 
> From Almighty Yhwach's perspective, he was put under KS in the past. This is one reason he cannot negate it. Like the past repaired Bankai of Ichigo resisting the future being altered to break it again.


Literally by being repaired in the past, Ichigo’s Bankai resisted being broken by the same guy who oneshot it earlier when Ichigo was more powerful.


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## shieldbounce (Nov 28, 2022)

The only genjutsu that might pose some kind of problem would be Itachi's Izanami based on how potent that ability was against Sage Mode Kabuto, and Sage Mode Kabuto ended up becoming completely still when under the influence of it.

However, one can still argue that if Yhwach is able to manipulate the flow of his Reiryoku while in a mentally altered (or even unconscious) state, he should still be able to come out of it scot free.

I mean, the guy ended up getting turned into an ant after having his abilities get taken away from him, ended up getting removed from existence, and still manage to come back in perfect form with the almighty.


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## kiranarusaku9738 (Nov 28, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Okay, but again, Itachi had someone lived an entire life in a genjutsu. That means they thought every moment from the time the were put under the genjutsu to when they eventually died of old age, was real. Whenever they ate, slept, shat. And in reality, only seconds had passed. So, it's pretty clear that genjutsu warps the victims reality to an absurd amount


What's funny is that genjustu is an application of yin release... which is literal reality warping when done at the highest levels  . The sage of six paths was able to make genjutsu become reality.


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## kiranarusaku9738 (Nov 28, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Matters for fuck all anyway, spiritual sensing is not covered by Genjutsu.
> 
> It is by KS.
> 
> ...


Flaring your energy doesn't necessarily break genjutsu. Remember Naruto tried that while getting mind fucked by Itachi and it did nothing LOL.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 28, 2022)

kiranarusaku9738 said:


> Flaring your energy doesn't necessarily break genjutsu. Remember Naruto tried that while getting mind fucked by Itachi and it did nothing LOL.


Even then, it has to be applied in the past to bypass A.

Blame Kubo, he wrote this absolutely broken thing.


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## Akira1993 (Nov 28, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Worth mentioning things in the past are not perceptible to Yhwach.
> 
> From Almighty Yhwach's perspective, he was put under KS in the past. This is one reason he cannot negate it. Like the past repaired Bankai of Ichigo resisting the future being altered to break it again.


Exactly, KS wouldn't do shit if he had Almighty activated before his meeting with Aizen


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

SSMG said:


> What? KS once casted last on a victim for the rest of their life. If they come across Aizen again after this first contact, they can be put under. This is no different for Yhwach.
> 
> 
> Not at the end of the series he doesn't. He absorbed his sword into himself and can cast it now with no sword. He did so to Yhwach specifically....
> ...


Yeah the obvious troll is you. No, once activated ks makes whoever sees it susceptible to its effects. That's it. it doesn't cast a permanent illusion otherwise Aizen wouldn't have to do anything ever. what you mean is once activated someone becomes permanently susceptible to its effects, they aren't under hypnosis all the time and aizen needs to consciously activate it. it's limited in range as well. 
He specifically has to "use" i.e activate KS when he wants to manipulate someone's senses and that's only after the opponent sees the initial release. Aizen fusing with his sword is irrelevant. 

You didn't address shit.


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

Akira1993 said:


> Exactly, KS wouldn't do shit if he had Almighty activated before his meeting with Aizen


all that did was make yhwach susceptible to ks' effects. y'all need to stop wanking. Aizen literally can't use ks on someone unless they see it's release ritual first


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 28, 2022)

The release ritual isn’t a thing anymore as of Muken sealed Aizen.

He *is *his Zanpakuto.

Even when sealed, just looking at him is the release ceremony.

tldr: Yhwach looked at Aizen during the first invasion. Aizen then just has to evoke the effect, he never needed to drop his sword to activate it anyway. Aizen doesn’t need to be in the same area as the person under KS. He put him under before he got A, so even if he invokes it Yhwach can’t negate it. He’s already been “caught” in the past so to speak

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Why was


Maybe go read the manga before calling other people idiots when clearly you're failing to understand shonen's plot and power's


accountmaker said:


> what you mean is once activated someone becomes permanently susceptible to its effects, they aren't under hypnosis all the time and aizen needs to consciously activate it. it's limited in range as well.


So limited in range that can make people see stuff even while he's not around the illusion or the victims.


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Maybe go read the manga before calling other people idiots when clearly you're failing to understand shonen's plot and power's
> 
> So limited in range that can make people see stuff even while he's not around the illusion or the victims.


I don't have to read shit, it's your job to defend your arguments and provide proof. You could debate with someone who's never heard of bleach, idiot.


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## accountmaker (Nov 28, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> The release ritual isn’t a thing anymore as of Muken sealed Aizen.
> 
> He *is *his Zanpakuto.
> 
> ...


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 28, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> I don't have to read shit, it's your job to defend your arguments and provide proof. You could debate with someone who's never heard of bleach, idiot.


You're the one trying to argue against what you're being told, ignoring stuff and feats, like you know any better, when you don't know a thing about Genjutsu and Ywach and KS. And on top of that you're rude as well, very nice arguing with people like you.


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## Rift (Nov 28, 2022)

he's cranky


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## Lurko (Nov 28, 2022)

KS is just like genjustu. Jesus.


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 28, 2022)

Lurko said:


> KS is just like genjustu. Jesus.


Whether it is or isn't, apparently it only worked because it was used on Ywach before he got the SK's power so they effect lingered on him even after he got the power. In this match-up, though, since he starts with the power, it's being argued that he would be able to see all incoming genjutsu and change the future so it would never have hit him


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 28, 2022)

I have a question, it's been awhile since I read the ending of Bleach. Can Ywach only alter actions after the action has been performed or can he also alter the future so the action never happened at all? Like, if someone hit him with an omnidirectional attack, there's no reality where the attack doesn't hit after it's been fired. Can he make it so the attack never fired at all?


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## Lurko (Nov 28, 2022)

Yeehaw is too stronk.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 28, 2022)

kayz said:


> Let me ask you, what makes you think Genjutsu can't alter whatever Yhwach sees, even his future sight?


What makes you think Bach can't negate it or pick a different fate?


kayz said:


> Now, I can turn this around and claim, KS wouldn't work on Naruto characters who can cancel genjutsu, because it hasn't been shown to work on anyone with illusion-resistance.
> Is that acceptable based on that standard?



This would be a horrible argument because KS is described as having the same sensory effects of Itachi's MS ability. The best you could argue is that if someone can resist Itachi's MS genjutsu then they may be able to resist KS.


accountmaker said:


> -snip-


So you're being serious with all this nonsense? You would have been better off pretending that you were trolling. 


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I don't need to change your perception of every single object to blue to make you see everything as blue. I could just add a blue tint to your vision in total, a different and much easier way of approaching the same problem.
> 
> Aizen doesn't need to see every reality Yhwach see's to influence his perception of ALL realities simultaneously.



Aizen doesn't need to see every future, but he still needs to effect every future, including Bach's ability to sense souls in all of those futures, who he sees, what he's seeing, etc. Aizen's KS wasn't changing color schemes, it changed the realities Bach was seeing into false realities.


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## kiranarusaku9738 (Nov 28, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> What makes you think Bach can't negate it or pick a different fate?
> 
> 
> This would be a horrible argument because KS is described as having the same sensory effects of Itachi's MS ability. The best you could argue is that if someone can resist Itachi's MS genjutsu then they may be able to resist KS.
> ...


KS isn't anything like Tsukuyomi. Itachi literally made someone live out their entire life using it and they physically aged as if they lived out that life.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Lurko (Nov 28, 2022)

Yeehawwwwww!!!!!!!!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 28, 2022)

kiranarusaku9738 said:


> KS isn't anything like Tsukuyomi. Itachi literally made someone live out their entire life using it and they physically aged as if they lived out that life.



I said sensory effects, not abilities. I already said MS has more versatility.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 28, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> What makes you think Bach can't negate it or pick a different fate?
> 
> 
> This would be a horrible argument because KS is described as having the same sensory effects of Itachi's MS ability. The best you could argue is that if someone can resist Itachi's MS genjutsu then they may be able to resist KS.
> ...



What if all he did was replace any image of himself that Yhwach would see with Renji, for example. It's not specific to timeline.


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## BossKitten (Nov 29, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> What if all he did was replace any image of himself that Yhwach would see with Renji, for example. It's not specific to timeline.



Then he wouldn't have said something along the lines of, "Oh, so that's what you see".

Also, it isn't just about replacing images. Aizen had to change Bach's sense down to his ability to sense souls.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 29, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Can Ywach only alter actions after the action has been performed or can he also alter the future so the action never happened at all?


Sometimes he straight up "teleport" or destroy stuff or add stuff (like traps), basically choosing a different future and skipping ahead a bit or adding the preferred future.


SoulOfCinder said:


> Like, if someone hit him with an omnidirectional attack, there's no reality where the attack doesn't hit after it's been fired. Can he make it so the attack never fired at all?


Even with a omnidirectional attack, there would be a different timeline where that attack never launched or it was using a different attack


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## kayz (Nov 29, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> What makes you think Bach can't negate it or pick a different fate?


Bach couldn't negate KS because he didn't even know he was affected even when gazing into the future. KS tricked his mind into thinking the future he was seeing was a true version of events. Therefore on that premise, I can say he ain't negating genjutsu.

*P.S. *Don't come with that bullshit of KS already being applied Pre-Almighty Yhwach, because that didn't help Ichibei's abilities from being negged pre-almighty Yhwach.


BossKitten said:


> This would be a horrible argument because KS is described as having the same sensory effects of Itachi's MS ability. The best you could argue is that if someone can resist Itachi's MS genjutsu then they may be able to resist KS.


It's not a horrible argument. I'm simply applying the same standards you guys are applying for Bleach.

So far so good, KS application is equivalent to a standard genjutsu in the Narutoverse. Even genjutsu does more in terms of applications than KS.
Tsukuyomi is far more than KS. The major reason why it can't be broken in-verse is that it occurs in a second.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> Bach couldn't negate KS because he didn't even know he was affected even when gazing into the future. KS tricked his mind into thinking the future he was seeing was a true version of events. Therefore on that premise, I can say he ain't negating genjutsu.
> 
> *P.S. *Don't come with that bullshit of KS already being applied Pre-Almighty Yhwach, because that didn't help Ichibei's abilities from being negged pre-almighty Yhwach.
> 
> ...


No no no no man you don't understand. Yhwach has the all mighty which means he can't be affected by any technique and and and and can negate everything and c da future. Also ks only worked on him because it worked him aand not because it worked on him

Reactions: Funny 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> You're the one trying to argue against what you're being told, ignoring stuff and feats, like you know any better, when you don't know a thing about Genjutsu and Ywach and KS. And on top of that you're rude as well, very nice arguing with people like you.


And you're the one doing a shit job of defending your argument. You barely understand the series you're defending and you expect me to swallow your wank. if you can't handle the tude, stop replying. Do us both a favor.



BossKitten said:


> So you're being serious with all this nonsense? You would have been better off pretending that you were trolling.


I do hope you're trolling though. You seem to genuinely believe yourabaka is invincible.


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

Itachi soloes.


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## kayz (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> And you're the one doing a shit job of defending your argument. You barely understand the series you're defending and you expect me to swallow your wank. if you can't handle the tude, stop replying. Do us both a favor.
> 
> 
> I do hope you're trolling though. *You seem to genuinely believe yourabaka is invincible.*


Some people genuinely believe Yhwach can solo the Narutoverse at once. The trolling with the guy is insane.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> Bach couldn't negate KS because he didn't even know he was affected even when gazing into the future. KS tricked his mind into thinking the future he was seeing was a true version of events. Therefore on that premise, I can say he ain't negating genjutsu.





kayz said:


> So far so good, KS application is equivalent to a standard genjutsu in the Narutoverse. Even genjutsu does more in terms of applications than KS.





kayz said:


> Tsukuyomi is far more than KS. The major reason why it can't be broken in-verse is that it occurs in a second.


The logic here is failing, you're assuming that every Genjutsu > KS so, everything that KS can do a Genjutsu can do it. When in reality genjutsu never landed on someone with such perception.
Tsukuyomi can inflict pain while KS can't, but on the other hand...
KS can directly manipulate someone's sense, without having to rely on someone's energy to do that.
Having to rely on someone's energy, it's even one of the way to break them out which is a weakness, KS has a weakness too since touching the sword can block the effect, but that's only a temporary solution that doesn't stop the permanent control. Because of this, I would argue that being able to resist genjutsu just because someone can do the partner stuff/stop the chakra manipulation, with KS that won't happen.
The control of the senses is permanent, while Tsukuyomi needs to catch the opponent each time to do something and can be broken.
KS can trick even energy/spirit manipulation, while tsukuyomi/normal genjutsu usually can't do stuff like this.
Because KS can last forever, can be used remotely and while far away from the victim.
And so on.

See that this game can even played in reverse, that doesn't give KS feats to genjutsu's users and the other way around.


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> Some people genuinely believe Yhwach can solo the Narutoverse at once. The trolling with the guy is insane.


They believe his all mighty can do anything, too. This is some next level wanking lmao


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

Madara soloes.


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Lurko said:


> Madara soloes.


Nah fodder hollow soloes Naruto characters can't see souls gg


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Nah fodder hollow soloes Naruto characters can't see souls gg


They are the almighty.


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

does this place not have mods why is this trash fire still going


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## BossKitten (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> Bach couldn't negate KS because he didn't even know he was affected even when gazing into the future. KS tricked his mind into thinking the future he was seeing was a true version of events. Therefore on that premise, I can say he ain't negating genjutsu.
> 
> *P.S. *Don't come with that bullshit of KS already being applied Pre-Almighty Yhwach, because that didn't help Ichibei's abilities from being negged pre-almighty Yhwach.
> 
> ...



What KS did is a feat for KS. You guys can feel whatever you want about it, but that doesn't do anything for regular genjutsu. Again KS didn't just trick what Bach could see, it tricked what he can sense as well. In Bleach they can sense energy (like chakra) in addition to the soul. Aizen had to trick these senses. 

It's a horrible argument because we know the senses being affected by KS. I don't think people here is arguing that genjutsu would be useless in Bleach overall. It would just come down to specific genjutsu and specific opponents. 

Once again, saying that KS is = standard genjutsu is false unless you can prove standard genjutsu affects time, the ability to sense souls, and the ability to sense energy as well as just the ordinary 5 senses.



accountmaker said:


> And you're the one doing a shit job of defending your argument. You barely understand the series you're defending and you expect me to swallow your wank. if you can't handle the tude, stop replying. Do us both a favor.
> 
> 
> I do hope you're trolling though. You seem to genuinely believe yourabaka is invincible.



Literally nobody here thinks Bach is invincible. The fact that you think saying he is > Naruto characters  is = saying he's invincible just makes your wank more clear, lol.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

At least solar system should be acceptable idk why ppl dont. hes obviously universal though, at least. thats what it means to be god tier in bleach.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

it's not that wach is invincible it's just that the narutoverse is weak

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## BossKitten (Nov 29, 2022)

Yes, yes, I get it @Lurko


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> it's not that wach is invincible it's just that the narutoverse is weak


Naw. More like you guys wank Yeehaw.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## kayz (Nov 29, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> What KS did is a feat for KS. You guys can feel whatever you want about it, but that doesn't do anything for regular genjutsu. Again KS didn't just trick what Bach could see, it tricked what he can sense as well. In Bleach they can sense energy (like chakra) in addition to the soul. Aizen had to trick these senses.
> 
> It's a horrible argument because we know the senses being affected by KS. I don't think people here is arguing that genjutsu would be useless in Bleach overall. It would just come down to specific genjutsu and specific opponents.
> 
> ...


I'm only applying the same metrics you guys were applying on KS.

KS is sensory manipulation at its foundation, right? Genjutsu is also sensory manipulation in its foundation.

Now, I don't care for whatever applications KS has, because genjutsu has so many more... yet it still gets canceled in-verse. 

Are there any Bleach characters with feats of canceling sensory manipulation?


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## kayz (Nov 29, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> The logic here is failing, you're assuming that every Genjutsu > KS so, everything that KS can do a Genjutsu can do it. When in reality genjutsu never landed on someone with such perception.
> Tsukuyomi can inflict pain while KS can't, but on the other hand...
> KS can directly manipulate someone's sense, without having to rely on someone's energy to do that. Having to rely on someone's energy, it's even one of the way to break them out which is a weakness,


Genjutsu does many things.
I'll break it down into three - Sensory manipulation, Energy manipulation, and Mind Manipulation.



Bad Wolf said:


> KS has a weakness too since touching the sword can block the effect, but that's only a temporary solution that doesn't stop the permanent control. Because of this, I would argue that being able to resist genjutsu just because someone can do the partner stuff/stop the chakra manipulation, with KS that won't happen.


Sharingan genjutsu can also be permanent. The Mizukage was controlled for years by Obito.
As for the partner method, that is a specific way the ninja are trained to break genjutsu. Bleachverse has no such knowledge or training.


Bad Wolf said:


> The control of the senses is permanent,


Can you prove this because Bleach characters aren't trained in mind techniques? So, of course, the effect will be permanent.


Bad Wolf said:


> while Tsukuyomi needs to catch the opponent each time to do something and can be broken.
> KS can trick even energy/spirit manipulation, while tsukuyomi/normal genjutsu usually can't do stuff like this.
> Because KS can last forever, can be used remotely and while far away from the victim.
> And so on.


Genjutsu can trick souls, energy, spirit too
1. Sasuke placed Orochimaru's soul in a genjutsu.
2. The tailed beasts are pure energy, yet they can be placed in genjutsu.

As long as a being has consciousness, it can be placed in genjutsu.

Genjutsu can still be used while far away from the victim. I'm not sure where you are going with that.
1. Obito controlling the Mizukage
2. Itachi controlling the woman.
3. Obito controlling Kurama from many miles away.


Bad Wolf said:


> See that this game can even played in reverse, that doesn't give KS feats to genjutsu's users and the other way around.


Bro, really, all this was unnecessary, I'm comparing KS's and genjutsu's *final output *which is* illusion manipulation/mind fuck*. The process used to achieve it is unnecessary. And I've already outlined, several similarities above.

If you can prove KS did something else besides creating illusions by affecting Yhwach's senses, then I have no reason to believe genjutsu will not affect Yhwach.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> I'm only applying the same metrics you guys were applying on KS.
> 
> KS is sensory manipulation at its foundation, right? Genjutsu is also sensory manipulation in its foundation.
> 
> ...


Trying to reason with Bleach wankers is like running into a wall. They ain't that bright.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

The biggest counter to Genjutsu working is that unlike KS which is toggled, you either need eye contact, sound or such.

Bach looks into the future, sees himself drooling or catching an L from getting hit via an eye technique.

Does not look at his eyes.

Good luck catching someone with this level of absurd precog in something like that. You have to mold charka, make signs (depending) and then cast the Genjutsu.

Just does not fall for one, because he is not a melon.


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

genjutsu has tons of ways of being cancelled, KS can only be by touching the blade before it activates.  It obviously can't be broken out of in the same way Genjutsu can otherwise someone as smart as Gin would have figured them out after hundreds of years of studying the thing.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

Also yeah.


We have statements of neg anything in the future being weighed against unbreakable KS. Even A did not break KS lmao.


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> The biggest counter to Genjutsu working is that unlike KS which is toggled, you either need eye contact, sound or such.
> 
> Bach looks into the future, sees himself drooling or catching an L from getting hit via an eye technique.
> 
> ...


Shit, Itachi only needs to point his finger at you.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

Lurko said:


> Shit, Itachi only needs to point his finger at you.


My man see's a future wherein this happens and just rips him to pieces with TK.

Also he still needs to mold Charka even if eye contact is not needed for all of them.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 29, 2022)

I don't even understand this debate about KS vs genjutsu. The topic is irrelevant for a lot of reasons.

For one thing, KS, is obviously the superior illusion. I understand Tsukuyomi may be a more "complete" illusion but the fact that being aware you are under KS doesn't help at all is fucked. Tsukuyomi can be broken, KS can't.

Secondly, even KS wouldn't have worked on Yhwach if it wasn't applied before the Almighty was active. If Yhwach is using Almighty, he sees the future genjutsu attempt and negates it. Illusions only work if applied BEFORE someone uses a power like that.

It's funny, this topic reminds me of a long standing nerd debate a friend of mine and I used to have as kids. What is the ultimate power, mind manipulation or temporal mastery. The answer is, whoever is more paranoid. Whoever has their power active first.

If the temporal adept is watching all time lines he will know to expect trickery and kill the mind manipulator in one of a trillion ways. If he is not, he would end up under the influence before realizing what happened. But in this case, Almighty is something he keeps active.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lurko (Nov 29, 2022)

WhiskeyThan said:


> My man see's a future wherein this happens and just rips him to pieces with TK.
> 
> Also he still needs to mold Charka even if eye contact is not needed for all of them.


So why did Ichigo rip him a new asshole?


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

Lurko said:


> So why did Ichigo rip him a new asshole?


KS....

Second time Plot arrow fired by a guy who was immune to several of Yhwach's abilities and had a Schrift designed to oppose Almighty.

Kubo wrote himself into a corner.


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

dude was sick and had to rush the ending yeah


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## BossKitten (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> I'm only applying the same metrics you guys were applying on KS.
> 
> KS is sensory manipulation at its foundation, right? Genjutsu is also sensory manipulation in its foundation.
> 
> ...



Nobody is saying that KS and genjutsu aren't sensory manipulation abilities. Doesn't change the fact that their are levels to what's being affected. Ignoring the time, soul, and energy sensory aspect to try and fit a narrative is simply debating in bad faith. 

Genjutsu having a wider range of applications means literally nothing in this specific situation. I can play 10 different sports, suck at 7 of them, be mediocre at 2 of them, and be a bit good at one. That doesn't mean I can beat someone who is actually good at one of those sports, even if I can beat them at one of the sports that they don't play at all.

As far as Bleach sensory manipulation negation, they fight based on their ability to sense energy and the soul, so if you can't mask that, then you're going to have an issue. The other option would be to use something that would make those senses worthless.

Also, while we're deep diving, what is stopping Naruto characters from getting their souls snatched?


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

sklaverei is an instant GG yeah


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

Also if you check the panels. Yhwach does not have his Almighty eyes when the arrow hits his dumbass.

Should've had them toggled on and maybe he would have won


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 29, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Sometimes he straight up "teleport" or destroy stuff or add stuff (like traps), basically choosing a different future and skipping ahead a bit or adding the preferred future.
> 
> Even with a omnidirectional attack, there would be a different timeline where that attack never launched or it was using a different attack


Okay, thanks for explaining 


BossKitten said:


> Also, while we're deep diving, what is stopping Naruto characters from getting their souls snatched?


Characters on the level of KCM Naruto have resistances as that version of Naruto resisted Nagato's soul steal with raw strength


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I don't even understand this debate about KS vs genjutsu. The topic is irrelevant for a lot of reasons.
> 
> For one thing, KS, is obviously the superior illusion. I understand Tsukuyomi may be a more "complete" illusion but the fact that being aware you are under KS doesn't help at all is fucked. Tsukuyomi can be broken, KS can't.
> 
> ...


Tsukuyomi can't be broken. Genjutsu can do everything KS can do and more, and there are many examples of characters who were unaware they were in a genjutsu


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Tsukuyomi can't be broken. Genjutsu can do everything KS can do and more, and there are many examples of characters who were unaware they were in a genjutsu



... Am I crazy? I thought it has been broken on a few different occasions? Also, it wouldn't matter because again, Almighty, would be aware of attempt before it was even made and power would be negated.


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

in the Narutoverse only other Sharingan users can break out of it IIRC.  Wach may very well be able to just neg with Almighty though.


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> in the Narutoverse only other Sharingan users can break out of it IIRC.  Wach may very well be able to just neg with Almighty though.


Nope. Kakashi couldnt break out of it, and sasuke was hospitalized after getting hit by it the 1st time post sharingan awakening. Iirc the only reason sauce was able to break out of tsukuyomi the 3rd time around was because itachi was holding back the entire fight


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> Genjutsu does many things.
> I'll break it down into three - Sensory manipulation, Energy manipulation, and Mind Manipulation.


Yeah, in many scenario even comparing KS and genjutsu it's nonsense since they do different stuff.


kayz said:


> Sharingan genjutsu can also be permanent. The Mizukage was controlled for years by Obito.


We don't really know how it was done or how it was working, maybe obito just needed to refresh the jutsu or else. You guys keep bringing that up even while we don't know about it. We know it similar to Kotoamatsukami, which should be way stronger, but has a huge drawback and can be turned off.


kayz said:


> Can you prove this because Bleach characters aren't trained in mind techniques? So, of course, the effect will be permanent.


The power itself is the control of the senses, not something else, the effect is permanent because it's not using some medium to do that or temporary methods as genjutsu.
And about not having resistance to mind techniques...
In bleach every not fodder shinigami has mental training with their swords and a mental space. Vizards even trained with hollows inside of them, usually sword/hollow are at least strong as the user.
Everyone worth of note can resist mind erasure, as seen during the first chapters of the manga, as well as mind control as seen with the zombie sternrittern or Zommari/pepe.
We've seen that some technique can hide/make someone invisible and they can still find each other (as Shinji with Aizen) and even anti-perception barriers (with inoue and Hachigen)
Gilians have hundreads of souls and mind inside one body, which would make them more complex than a normal human.
You've as nodt with fear effect that can straight up kill someone and yet people resisted that.
Yet they still can't resist KS.


kayz said:


> Genjutsu can trick souls, energy, spirit too
> 1. Sasuke placed Orochimaru's soul in a genjutsu.
> 2. The tailed beasts are pure energy, yet they can be placed in genjutsu.


Orochimaru's genjutsu just got reversed, his "soul" was probably fine since he was able to return many times later.
Tailed beast has physical form and with energy manipulation I mean that if someone can sense chakra, they can't change that chakra sensing with a genjutsu.


kayz said:


> Genjutsu can still be used while far away from the victim. I'm not sure where you are going with that.
> 1. Obito controlling the Mizukage
> 2. Itachi controlling the woman.
> 3. Obito controlling Kurama from many miles away.


you're bringing up mind control, they never showed to control senses from far away as KS. See that you're mixing again genjutsu with different effects with illusion's type. You guys want to argue that genjutsu are better than KS and yet you've to bring up stuff that doesn't relate with KS.


kayz said:


> Bro, really, all this was unnecessary, I'm comparing KS's and genjutsu's *final output *which is* illusion manipulation/mind fuck*. The process used to achieve it is unnecessary. And I've already outlined, several similarities above.
> 
> If you can prove KS did something else besides creating illusions by affecting Yhwach's senses, then I have no reason to believe genjutsu will not affect Yhwach.


Then why do you bring mind contro jutsu when speaking about KS? All the stuff I talked about are for that comparison, yet you're using different jutsu. Mind control isn't related with KS, it's more close to Ichibei's power.


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## Steven (Nov 29, 2022)

Ive never seen a thread full with off-topic like this lol

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

Honestly a pretty civil debate all things considered.

Genjutsu debate on an Isshiki thread. Can we reach 20 pages


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Nope. Kakashi couldnt break out of it, and sasuke was hospitalized after getting hit by it the 1st time post sharingan awakening. Iirc the only reason sauce was able to break out of tsukuyomi the 3rd time around was because itachi was holding back the entire fight


wait then why didn't Madara use it against Naruto and sauce 

Or Hashirama, for that matter.


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 29, 2022)

Steven said:


> Ive never seen a thread full with off-topic like this lol


The main focus of the thread is already over, someone just asked about genjutsu vs Ywach and the talk started, I guess we could've moved to a different topic but no one cares enough to do that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> wait then why didn't Madara use it against Naruto and sauce
> 
> Or Hashirama, for that matter.


Supposedly he doesn't have tsukuyomi specifically. Or it's PIS. Like why didn't yhwach just kill everyone if he was that strong? why didn't aizen just use KS on all the captains and have them kill.each other or just enslave them?


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## Boruto (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> wait then why didn't Madara use it against Naruto and sauce


Madara doesn't have Tsukuyomi, just basic Sharingan genjutsu.


Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I don't even understand this debate about KS vs genjutsu. The topic is irrelevant for a lot of reasons.
> 
> For one thing, KS, is obviously the superior illusion. I understand Tsukuyomi may be a more "complete" illusion but the fact that being aware you are under KS doesn't help at all is fucked. Tsukuyomi can be broken, KS can't.


I mean, as far as OBD vs matches are concerned, both can be broken/ignored by characters with sufficient mindfuck resistance. In verse, Tsukuyomi itself is also very difficult to break. Basically everyone just tries to avoid being trapped in it or they're probably done.

Setting aside the Yhwach precognition shit, both KS and genjutsu have their strengths. KS is easy to apply on a large number of people and lasts permanently, and it's often more difficult to detect that you're being manipulated. Certain genjutsu eclipse KS in different ways by having planetary range like Mugen Tsukuyomi, going beyond sensory manipulation and into mind control territory like Kotoamatsukami, etc. Genjutsu is also more versatile in that it doesn't have to rely on sight to be activated, it can use different mediums.

But yeah, this thread has really gone off the rails since genjutsu is an irrelevant topic here.


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Hell during the KCM 1 fight Naruto warned Bee, a perfect jin, to not get caught by Itachi's tsukuyomi


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Boruto said:


> Madara doesn't have Tsukuyomi, just basic Sharingan genjutsu


No he has mangekyo Sharingan genjutsu; a step above basic sharingan genjutsu


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## Boruto (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> No he has mangekyo Sharingan genjutsu; a step above basic sharingan genjutsu


Yeah, I was including MS genjutsu in that since it's just the same shit but better and everyone here knows Madara has the MS.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Supposedly he doesn't have tsukuyomi specifically. Or it's PIS. Like why didn't yhwach just kill everyone if he was that strong? why didn't aizen just use KS on all the captains and have them kill.each other or just enslave them?


Yhwach expliclty stated he enjoyed toying with Ichigo and wanted to let the others live so he could kill them at their happiest moments.  Aizen is a trickster who just likes to fuck around with those beneath him.

On the other hand Madara was trying his hardest to beat Hashi and still lost.


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 29, 2022)

Only two Uchiha with MS that knew Tsukuyomi were Sasuke and Itachi. Obito,  Madara, Kakashi, Izuna, not even the genjutsu master Shisui knew it


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

SoulOfCinder said:


> Only two Uchiha with MS that knew Tsukuyomi were Sasuke and Itachi. Obito,  Madara, Kakashi, Izuna, not even the genjutsu master Shisui knew it


Sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi. He has Amaterasu in one eye, and enton in the other


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> Yhwach expliclty stated he enjoyed toying with Ichigo and wanted to let the others live so he could kill them at their happiest moments.  Aizen is a trickster who just likes to fuck around with those beneath him.
> 
> On the other hand Madara was trying his hardest to beat Hashi and still lost.


So character induced stupidity


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi. He has Amaterasu in one eye, and enton in the other


That's true. I thought Sasuke inherited it when he took Itachi's eye but I guess not


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

So if Itachi is the only one who can use Tsukuyomi then it's not even relevant since he's small potatos even in the grand scheme of the narutoverse to say nothing of Yhwach.


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## SoulOfCinder (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> So if Itachi is the only one who can use Tsukuyomi then it's not even relevant since he's small potatos even in the grand scheme of the narutoverse to say nothing of Yhwach.


The discussion went from Isshiki vs Ywach to genjutsu vs Ywach to sharingan genjutsu vs Ywach to Tsukuyomi vs Ywach for some reason

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

To be fair, Genjutsu vs Bleach will show up in any single thread involving it that it can.

Then we get the partner method debates and all that, honestly a ballache and given the "I win" button it seems to be, shocked Naruto characters do not use it more often. 

Though maybe all the main villains have fancy eyes, I sure as shit know that they invented more fancy eyes for Boruto. We got Ant Man shit and all sorts

Reactions: Winner 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> So if Itachi is the only one who can use Tsukuyomi then it's not even relevant since he's small potatos even in the grand scheme of the narutoverse to say nothing of Yhwach.


You don't need tsukuyomi to beat yhwch with genjutsu

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> You couldn't use tsukuyomi to beat yhwch, or any other genjutsu


FTFY


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## kayz (Nov 29, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Yeah, in many scenario even comparing KS and genjutsu it's nonsense since they do different stuff.


But at their base, both are sensory manipulation. That is where we compare.
Other forms of genjutsu can go into the application of mind manipulation/control. But it doesn't mean it doesn't start with sensory manipulation at its base.


Bad Wolf said:


> We don't really know how it was done or how it was working, maybe obito just needed to refresh the jutsu or else. You guys keep bringing that up even while we don't know about it. We know it similar to Kotoamatsukami, which should be way stronger, but has a huge drawback and can be turned off.


I don't know about the refresh. Never heard anything about genjutsu requiring refresh in the Narutoverse, except after it's broken.



Bad Wolf said:


> The power itself is the control of the senses, not something else, the effect is permanent because it's not using some medium to do that or temporary methods as genjutsu.And about not having resistance to mind techniques...
> 
> In bleach every not fodder shinigami has mental training with their swords and a mental space. Vizards even trained with hollows inside of them, usually sword/hollow are at least strong as the user.
> Everyone worth of note can resist mind erasure, as seen during the first chapters of the manga, as well as mind control as seen with the zombie sternrittern or Zommari/pepe.
> ...


But, have any Bleach characters actually had *on-panel feats* of canceling sensory manipulation?



Bad Wolf said:


> Orochimaru's genjutsu just got reversed, his "soul" was probably fine since he was able to return many times later.
> Tailed beast has physical form and with energy manipulation I mean that if someone can sense chakra, they can't change that chakra sensing with a genjutsu.


Sasuke used genjutsu to reverse it, right? The fact is genjutsu still worked on souls.
Tailed beasts aren't physical when they are stored in jinchuriki. They are returned to their energy state. Yet Obito cast genjutsu on Kurama inside Kushina.
And yes, some Genjutsu can alter sensors' ability to sense chakra. Gengetsu's Clam and Genjutsu's presence could not be detected by sensors.



Bad Wolf said:


> you're bringing up mind control, they never showed to control senses from far away as KS. See that you're mixing again genjutsu with different effects with illusion's type. You guys want to argue that genjutsu are better than KS and yet you've to bring up stuff that doesn't relate with KS.


Mind control is just one of the applications of genjutsu.
But at its base, all genjutsu still requires sensory manipulation to work. Don't get it confused, it works on the senses as stated by Shikamaru and Jiraiya, even if mind control is in effect.


Bad Wolf said:


> Then why do you bring mind contro jutsu when speaking about KS? All the stuff I talked about are for that comparison, yet you're using different jutsu. Mind control isn't related with KS, it's more close to Ichibei's power.


Mind control is not a different jutsu, it is another effect of genjutsu (which works on the senses).

Reactions: Winner 2


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> FTFY


The correct sentence would be
You couldn't use tsukuyomi or any other genjutsu to beat yhwach. how are you gonna try to ironically fix a man's post but fuck up the sentence structure that bad lmao

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

severe narutard cope sheesh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> The correct sentence would be
> You couldn't use tsukuyomi or any other genjutsu to beat yhwach. how are you gonna try to ironically fix a man's post but fuck up the sentence structure that bad lmao


I tried to maintain as close to your original word placement while correcting the bad messaging. I am glad we agree on the important part though, which is the idea of using genjutsu on Yhwach is laughable.


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I tried to maintain as close to your original word placement while correcting the bad messaging. I am glad we agree on the important part though, which is the idea of using genjutsu on Yhwach is laughable.


Bro... are you autistic? Like actual autistic not meme autistic. No offense or judgment if you are.


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> severe nartutard cope sheesh


Be honest, how far up yhwach's ass is your head rn?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Be honest, how far up yhwach's ass is your head rn?


It's not at all but if you were in his army you would be Sternritter C: The Cope

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Bro... are you autistic? Like actual autistic not meme autistic. No offense or judgment if you are.


Yes, and I have already admitted this on other threads. But it's not really relevant to the logic of trying to catch who can see all future timelines off guard.


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## WhiskeyThan (Nov 29, 2022)

People.

If you can see all the futures, you are not going to allow one to unfold where a fucking Genjutsu gets cast on you.

FFS, people who know about KS close their eyes and when Yhwach knows that he's gonna get the same, he fucks outta range or he kills the guy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## kayz (Nov 29, 2022)

BossKitten said:


> Nobody is saying that KS and genjutsu aren't sensory manipulation abilities. Doesn't change the fact that their are levels to what's being affected. Ignoring the time, soul, and energy sensory aspect to try and fit a narrative is simply debating in bad faith.
> 
> Genjutsu having a wider range of applications means literally nothing in this specific situation. I can play 10 different sports, suck at 7 of them, be mediocre at 2 of them, and be a bit good at one. That doesn't mean I can beat someone who is actually good at one of those sports, even if I can beat them at one of the sports that they don't play at all.
> 
> ...


Then, what metric are you using to scale KS over genjutsu? Because, I can use the *numerous application metrics* and the fact genjutsu can *affect people with illusion-resistance* to claim genjutsu is greater than KS.

Soul-manipulation and soul-stealing resistance isn't something outside the scope of the Narutoverse since KCM has resisted it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> It's not at all but if you were in his army you would be Sternritter C: The Cope


 Nah I wouldn't be in his army because they all lost, kinda like how he'd lose to genjutsu. You'd make a great sternitter tho;  the fail.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> Then, what metric are you using to scale KS over genjutsu? Because, I can use the *numerous application metrics* to claim genjutsu is greater than KS.
> 
> Soul manipulation resistance isn't something outside the scope of the Narutoverse since KCM has resisted it.


When the fuck has ks manipulated souls? If @BossKitten is referring to soul sensing, KCM Naruto had that plus senjutsu sensing and he still didn't want smoke with genjutsu users. Moot point


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

accountmaker said:


> Nah I wouldn't be in his army because they all lost, kinda like how he'd lose to genjutsu. You'd make a great sternitter tho;  the fail.




that's one of the clunkiest come-backs I've heard in my life


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## accountmaker (Nov 29, 2022)

Rift said:


> that's one of the clunkiest come-backs I've heard in my life


If you're hearing text there's more wrong with you than I thought

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## Unresponsive (Nov 29, 2022)

Steven said:


> they say that when he swung his arm, he created a wind-storm (Gale/Fūton) and when he let out a scream, he created a thunder-storm as if it were lightning (Raiton)." Amado: "Frightening abilities"


wow what an impressive feat, he can use abilities without needing to use hand signs.

Reactions: Winner 2 | MAXIMUM 1


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 29, 2022)

kayz said:


> But at their base, both are sensory manipulation. That is where we compare.
> Other forms of genjutsu can go into the application of mind manipulation/control. But it doesn't mean it doesn't start with sensory manipulation at its base.


Many genjutsu really do one stuff. Like, the Tree Binding Death, the genjutsu that Kurenai uses against Itachi, it just creates a tree to block the enemy. It's just that, no other type of manipulation, no particular, wanna argue that it's superior to KS?
Or take Kotoamatsukami, which is one of the strongest genjutsu, it's basically a subtle mind control. It's stronger than KS? It doesn't really do sensory manipulation, as far as we was it doesn't really control your sense, as other genjutsu.
I wouldn't compare it to KS, I would rather compare it to Zomari/Pepe/Giselle power. KS can't do what these other can do but thanks to Aizen's reiatsu it's stronger than them, probably some people couldjust reiatsu flex those powers out but not KS.


kayz said:


> I don't know about the refresh. Never heard anything about genjutsu requiring refresh in the Narutoverse, except after it's broken.


Never heard about permanent genjutsu without some significant drawback. Kotoamatsukami it's basically what that jutsu was doing but without drawback. Seems weird considering that kotoamatsukami would be a top tier genjutsu an Obito doesn't have that kind of skill.


kayz said:


> But, have any Bleach characters actually had *on-panel feats* of canceling sensory manipulation?


So, the mental resistance is covered? And I listed even some feats of canceling sensory manipulation.


kayz said:


> Sasuke used genjutsu to reverse it, right? The fact is genjutsu still worked on souls.


The fact that it was a genjutsu in the first place make you wonder what was happening. Could have just reversed the genjutsu on Orochimaru's body as far as we know. Genjutsu works on the victims chakra, basically they were just messing with each other's chakra, next to each other.


kayz said:


> Tailed beasts aren't physical when they are stored in jinchuriki. They are returned to their energy state. Yet Obito cast genjutsu on Kurama inside Kushina.


They still have a mind/senses and clearly they've a chakra, which is the main conduct for running genjutsu. It's not like they're just energy.


kayz said:


> And yes, some Genjutsu can alter sensors' ability to sense chakra. Gengetsu's Clam and Genjutsu's presence could not be detected by sensors.


Right, but that's again what I'm saying, those two jutsu can even alter energy sensor, but these two, it's not a general rule.
And they don't even alter the sense of touch if I recall correctly. The clam was again, a very specific type of illusion, not even able to react in the right way to being attacked... And of course they don't alter the sense time like KS.
These jutsu are 100% replicable by KS and even more.


kayz said:


> But at its base, all genjutsu still requires sensory manipulation to work. Don't get it confused, it works on the senses as stated by Shikamaru and Jiraiya, even if mind control is in effect.





kayz said:


> Mind control is not a different jutsu, it is another effect of genjutsu (which works on the senses).


Then, we fail again in the specifics of the jutsu, yeah they can "manipulate 5 senses" but the only effect of those power is mind control, not creating illusion and stuff like this, like KS. At that point is like asking "is the train faster or the tower taller?"
If you notice, you're quoting lot of genjutsu just to replicate KS, but every genjutsu lack something to be like KS.
Even Tsukuyomi lack the energy sensor's manipulation and, even that at it's core, it's just altering the energy of the opponent to do that, it's not a straight up control of the senses.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Rift (Nov 29, 2022)

Normal non-tsukyomi Genjutsu can be negged by good energy control or just feeling pain from an outside source, the idea that A couldn't neg it is beyond laughable.  KS has never been shown to be able to be broken out of by any means besides touching Aizen's sword or taking out Aizen himself.  If it could be broken out of with a method as simple as acute reiatsu control or pain then Gin would have figured that out after studying it for as long as he did.


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## kayz (Nov 30, 2022)

Bad Wolf said:


> Many genjutsu really do one stuff. Like, the Tree Binding Death, the genjutsu that Kurenai uses against Itachi, it just creates a tree to block the enemy. It's just that, no other type of manipulation, no particular, wanna argue that it's superior to KS?
> Or take Kotoamatsukami, which is one of the strongest genjutsu, it's basically a subtle mind control. It's stronger than KS? It doesn't really do sensory manipulation, as far as we was it doesn't really control your sense, as other genjutsu.
> I wouldn't compare it to KS, I would rather compare it to Zomari/Pepe/Giselle power. KS can't do what these other can do but thanks to Aizen's reiatsu it's stronger than them, probably some people couldjust reiatsu flex those powers out but not KS.
> 
> ...


Bro we clearly have definitive statements from the manga as to how genjutsu work, which is manipulating senses at its root. It's not changing even if it can be applied in several ways.


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