# Mihawk vs Kizaru (?)



## Bernkastel (Aug 5, 2015)

Mihawk is swordless while Kizaru has no DF.

Location : Underwater

Mindset : Bloodlusted

Can the greatest admiral beat the greatest swordless swordsman?


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## Richard Lionheart (Aug 5, 2015)

Mihawk has still his knife, right?


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## TheWiggian (Aug 5, 2015)

Could go either way. Leaning towards Mihawk.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 5, 2015)

Legendary Pervert said:


> Mihawk has still his knife, right?



Mihawk with any sharp object, for example a toothpick or a sharp tree branch he got from the ground, would win mid diff

If Mihawk were restricted from using any object, I'd say he needs extreme diff


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## Extravlad (Aug 5, 2015)

Knife Mihawk wins, if he doesn't have it he probably loses because Kizaru probably know how to punch and kick better.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 5, 2015)

Mihawk lower end of high-diff. His haki and physical strength should be a notch above Kizaru?s since most of Kizaru?s power stems from his devil fruit.


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## giantbiceps (Aug 5, 2015)

Kizaru high-diff at most, mid-diff if Kizaru is bloodlusted.


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## Canute87 (Aug 5, 2015)

I thought DFless admirals were banned.


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## Dunno (Aug 5, 2015)

Mihawk wins mid diff or so. He's less restricted than Kizaru, who relies heavily on his DF for mobility. He's most likely also much more proficient in swimming, seeing as Kizaru hasn't been able to swim for I don't know how many years.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 5, 2015)

In a brawl with kicks etc. Kizaru should win high ( mid ) diff.

Mihawk with sword beats Kizaru with DF extreme diff.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 5, 2015)

^ unless Kizaru can use soru and escape those wicked hawk-eyes of hawk eyes (lol). There is no way that Kizaru could beat him. This guy can keep up with gear 2 Luffy, shut down 3 sword-style with pinpoint accuracy among many others things. Mihawk has him beat in basically every stat since Kizaru only creates his top tier speed/power with devil fruit accelerated movements and intangibility.


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## Amol (Aug 6, 2015)

It can go either way but I would favor Kizaru more .
Mihawk here faces the sudden lack of his fighting style while Kizaru still retains his .
Basically Kizaru is more skilled in CQC.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

Fuck is this. Kizaru is "PORTRAYED" as a physical fighter while Mihawk is a Swordsman without his sword. Don't tell me Mihawk has a "PORTRAYED" Hand to Hand combat skills because he does not have any "PORTRAYAL" of being a H2H combatant


 It's obvious who would win.

EDIT: Well if we assume they both know how to swim.


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## barreltheif (Aug 6, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> Fuck is this. Kizaru is "PORTRAYED" as a physical fighter while Mihawk is a Swordsman without his sword. Don't tell me Mihawk has a "PORTRAYED" Hand to Hand combat skills because he does not have any "PORTRAYAL" of being a H2H combatant. It's obvious who would win.




What the hell are you talking about?


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## Rob (Aug 6, 2015)

I thought banned DF's were Admiral-less.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm talking smack here. Tell me what part you don't understand.


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## Rob (Aug 6, 2015)

Has Mihawk ever been kicked at the speed of a regular foot?


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## barreltheif (Aug 6, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> I'm talking smack here. Tell me what part you don't understand.




I don't think you know how to talk smack. Why did you keep repeating "portrayal" and capitalizing it? Pretty sure that no one was saying that Mihawk was portrayed as a hand to hand fighter. No one else even used the word "portrayal".


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 6, 2015)

The slashes from Mihawk's sword are strength feats on their own, so he's already physically stronger than Kizaru from that alone. 

Nothing really suggests that Kizaru is stronger or weaker than Marco in the physical department... Granted, Marco is quite a monster in physical stats, but I highly doubt he's on the same level as someone who sparred with Shanks in the past. As far as speed goes, it's impossible to really tell, as Kizaru's speed feats come from his fruit. Endurance and durability are unknown variables, as well. However, Kizaru did have a sword duel with Old Rayleigh, but that doesn't really give more evidence of his physical strength than we had already seen with Marco. 

If I'd have to pick a winner, I would definitely choose Mihawk. He's got a superior portrayal and has better hype than Kizaru. Even without his sword, we're already aware of how monstrous his physical strength is.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 6, 2015)

Giving it to Kizaru. He is far more proficient in Hand to hand combat than Mihawk IMO.


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## Pink Matter (Aug 6, 2015)

If it's pure H2H, I'm going to give it to Kizaru since he's shown more in that category.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> I don't think you know how to talk smack. Why did you keep repeating "portrayal" and capitalizing it? Pretty sure that no one was saying that Mihawk was portrayed as a hand to hand fighter. No one else even used the word "portrayal".



I'm revolutionizing portrayal. Haven't you heard? Portrayal is everything.

lol what's the deal with it, Just because no one's talking about it doesn't mean I won't start it


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> The slashes from Mihawk's sword are strength feats on their own, so he's already physically stronger than Kizaru from that alone.
> 
> Nothing really suggests that Kizaru is stronger or weaker than Marco in the physical department... Granted, Marco is quite a monster in physical stats, but I highly doubt he's on the same level as someone who sparred with Shanks in the past. As far as speed goes, it's impossible to really tell, as Kizaru's speed feats come from his fruit. Endurance and durability are unknown variables, as well. However, Kizaru did have a sword duel with Old Rayleigh, but that doesn't really give more evidence of his physical strength than we had already seen with Marco.
> 
> If I'd have to pick a winner, I would definitely choose Mihawk. He's got a superior portrayal and has better hype than Kizaru. Even without his sword, we're already aware of how monstrous his physical strength is.



See, here are the portrayal guys.

Mihawk's slash was blocked by a lot of guys, Kizaru blocked a direct attack from Whitebeard with a single foot. No feat confirms that Kiz is weaker physically than Mihawk. Tho Kiz may not be stronger physically, I doubt the gap is large.

Mihawk sparred with Shanks, Kiz tried to go in 1v1 deathmatch with WB and didn't scratched.

But let's assume Mihawk is physically stronger, he still lacks high level hand to hand combat skills, a skill Kizaru definitely has. And I doubt his physical strength is enough to cover the the gap in their fighting skills in CQC


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 6, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> See, here are the portrayal guys.
> 
> Mihawk's slash was blocked by a lot of guys, Kizaru blocked a direct attack from Whitebeard with a single foot. No feat confirms that Kiz is weaker physically than Mihawk. Tho Kiz may not be stronger physically, I doubt the gap is large.



I'm going by direct feats of hand-to-hand combat with Marco, in which he never came out stronger or weaker. Whitebeard was also sickly and damaged in that panel with Kizaru, so there's no clear way to actually scale his strength. He was singled out for the entire war and continuously weakened as it progressed. From what we've seen, Marco's strength feats are on the same level as two admirals in separate instances.

It depends on what kind of slash you're talking about, as well. We didn't really see his off-panel fight with Vista, but it's simply a testament to the latter's strength if he managed to block Mihawk's powerful attacks. As for Jozu, he possesses a defense that's quite a good counter to slash damage. The admirals wouldn't be able to stand in the path of some Haki-imbued slash from Mihawk and use their body to tank the damage, unless Mihawk wasn't using Haki or they used the same method Aokiji had shown against WB's bisento. We don't know if Haki was used or not, though, which would change the situation depending on circumstance.



> Mihawk sparred with Shanks, Kiz tried to go in 1v1 deathmatch with WB and didn't scratched.



Kizaru had his fruit in that instance, though. I'm sure Kizaru wouldn't have fared the same without his fruit.

If you take away his fruit and Whitebeard's bisento, the same thing clearly wouldn't have happened. 



> But let's assume Mihawk is physically stronger, he still lacks high level hand to hand combat skills, a skill Kizaru definitely has. And I doubt his physical strength is enough to cover the the gap in their fighting skills in CQC



That's not necessarily true. It was never indicated that Kizaru has any kind of specialty. We also saw him wielding his sword of light before Old Rayleigh, so it just varies with the situation he appears in.

If anything, his specialty would be Pika Pika no Mi. He has used its techniques more than any other ability in the manga.


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## trance (Aug 6, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> I highly doubt he's on the same level as someone who sparred with Shanks *in the past.*



Exactly. _In the past_. Their last duel was before Shanks lost his arm which was 12 years ago. A lot can happen in 12 years. Having said that, I do think they're on pretty comparable terms now but using the fact that their last duel was over a decade ago has never been a good argument. 



> He's got a superior portrayal.



Talking strictly portrayal, no he doesn't. Mihawk was delegated to fighting Vista while Kizaru contended with Marco. Vista isn't weak by any means but obviously, he's not as strong as Marco. They both initated assaults on Whitebeard directly only to be halted by a commander. Only difference is, Kizaru was again matched against the stronger commander.

I'm not arguing for nor against Mihawk in this match at the moment but there are better ways to argue his superiority than this.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> I'm going by direct feats of hand-to-hand combat with Marco, in which he never came out stronger or weaker. Whitebeard was also sickly and damaged in that panel with Kizaru, so there's no clear way to actually scale his strength. He was singled out for the entire war and continuously weakened as it progressed. From what we've seen, Marco's strength feats are on the same level as two admirals in separate instances.



oh okay, here we go again with WSM but old sick WB so he aint strong enough. That damaged WB stopped a paddle ship with a single hand. He should've been able to back Kizaru down, but he didn't. and of course he won't damage Marco by using CQC alone, he ain't Garp man. And from what we've seen, 3 Admirals were WB level in separate instances. See that. That's a flawed argument on your side



> It depends on what kind of slash you're talking about, as well. We didn't really see his off-panel fight with Vista, but it's simply a testament to the latter's strength if he managed to block Mihawk's powerful attacks. As for Jozu, he possesses a defense that's quite a good counter to slash damage. The admirals wouldn't be able to stand in the path of some Haki-imbued slash from Mihawk and use their body to tank the damage, unless Mihawk wasn't using Haki or they used the same method Aokiji had shown against WB's bisento. We don't know if Haki was used or not, though, which would change the situation depending on circumstance.



So you're saying that Vista is also physically stronger than Kiz? How about when Croc blocked him? lol. And Jozu didn't need his fruit to stop Mihawk's slash. and in this fight, there ain't no swords




> Kizaru had his fruit in that instance, though. I'm sure Kizaru wouldn't have fared the same without his fruit.
> 
> If you take away his fruit and Whitebeard's bisento, the same thing clearly wouldn't have happened.



That's a lot of if's tho, but you're using a sword slash to cover up for Mihawk's lack of Hand to Hand combat skills. That's like saying that Mihawk would've died in the war if he didn't have his sword.



> That's not necessarily true. It was never indicated that Kizaru has any kind of specialty. We also saw him wielding his sword of light before Old Rayleigh, so it just varies with the situation he appears in.
> If anything, his specialty would be Pika Pika no Mi. He has used its techniques more than any other ability in the manga.



Dude, he held WB down with a single foot, and he's a freakin Admiral. If a VA or even a CP9 heck even Coby is capable of things like Rokushiki then there's nothing wrong to assume that an Admiral has at least a knowledge or skill of using basic rokushiki.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> Dude, he held WB down with a single foot, and he's a freakin Admiral. If a VA or even a CP9 heck even Coby is capable of things like Rokushiki then there's nothing wrong to assume that an Admiral has at least a knowledge or skill of using basic rokushiki.



He _held Whitebeard down_ with his foot? What kind of joke is that? Who even said Whitebeard tried to free himself, it?s obvious that he didn?t dare to make a move because Kizaru would simply shot lasers at him again.

Mihawk has speed to rival G2 Luffy, armament haki that makes his sword unbreakable, observation haki and eyesight that makes him invulnerable, strength to create huge slashes and reactions to deflect pistol shots... 

this all shits on Kizaru yet you say he got this. lololol good joke.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

This all shits on Kizaru huh. Typical fanboy response. Look at the situation before even speaking. Mihawk is swordless and he is featless in CqC.

Speed that rivals G2 Luffy? So u think Kiz can't keep up with G2 Luffy? make yourself feel better

Armament that makes sword unbreakable? Isn't his sword the highest of grades in the first place? He has no feats to back up your claim of his CoA. but, make yourself feel better

CoO and eyesight that makes him invulnerable? Where was this taken? but, make yourself feet better

Strength to create huge slashes? As I've said, Kizaru is no slouch in strength department, he may not be stronger than Mihawk physically, but the gap isn't large enough to cover the difference in CQC skill. but make  yourself feel better

Reaction to pistols. lmao, Base Luffy was easily reacting to point blank pistols. It's not a feat to brag about. but suit yourself


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## giantbiceps (Aug 6, 2015)

Kizaru's beastly haki destroy Mihawk low-diff if he's serious 

Swordless Mihawk would get stomp by any Shichibukai except Buggy


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> Speed that rivals G2 Luffy? So u think Kiz can't keep up with G2 Luffy? make yourself feel better
> 
> Armament that makes sword unbreakable? Isn't his sword the highest of grades in the first place? He has no feats to back up your claim of his CoA. but, make yourself feel better
> 
> ...



He can keep up with G2 Luffy, mind proving that? Where are these super awesome speed panels where Kizaru catches him without his devil fruit?

And then you say his grade makes his sword unbreakable. Guess you believe it?s indestructrible even against haki. Another good joke of yours.

Ever heard of hyperbole? Clearly you do not want to deny that he has exceptional ability to block and dodge everyone when the guy hasn?t even been scarred once?

Again where is the proof that the gap is close. Love how your supposed proof is always "make yourself feel better" as if you actually made a real point instead of assumptions.

Yes you are right Mihawk reacts to pistols and Kizaru can be glad if he reacts to Kicks and slashes.. certainly nothing to brag about.
maybe we should ask Beckman who he thinks can react faster? Mihawk or Kizaru.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

And they say the Admirals are overrated yet one guy here don't even think Kizaru can keep up with G2 without his devil fruit. That's game over for me, the moment you tell me that you believe that a freaking top tier ain't keeping up with Luffy makes it cleat that you are an irrational troll.

And lol at your hyperbole, you giving me the shit that he is unscratched during the war is because of the fact that he didn't even fight a worthy opponent, and when found one he backed down immediately. Lol

Where's the proof that his sword is indestructible because of his CoA?
Where's the proof that the gap is big? Blocking Wb's attack alone is a testament of his strength. 

Ever heard of a brain? You have one, try using it

You're giving me the burden of proof, why not try proving your point yourself?


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> And they say the Admirals are overrated yet one guy here don't even think Kizaru can keep up with G2 without his devil fruit. That's game over for me, the moment you tell me that you believe that a freaking top tier ain't keeping up with Luffy makes it cleat that you are an irrational troll.
> 
> And lol at your hyperbole, you giving me the shit that he is unscratched during the war is because of the fact that he didn't even fight a worthy opponent, and when found one he backed down immediately. Lol
> 
> ...



Mind telling me where I said Kizaru can?t keep up with G2 Luffy?

He can?t catch him in BASE when he doesn?t have anything like soru. That is a fact that you have yet to disprove cause well, you know....one guy runs faster _than the eye can see_ while the other has no tech other than devil fruit that gives him that ability and never showcases any feats in base.

I knew you would pull the "no worthy opponent" card yet it does not change anything since I certainly take a guy who can dodge bullets without lookin and track gear 2 movements more seriously than one who can barely dodge sword strikes.

Last i checked his sword is still intact and besides I certainly take Mihawk?s words over yours.

Also the guy who taught Zoro armament is likely to have better haki than Kizaru, wouldn?t you agree?

Where is the proof that the gap is big? I dunno ask Beckman and G2 Luffy. 
And he certainly didn?t block Whitebeard he just stood on his bisento after lasering him.. then Whitebeard went on to ignore him and instead watched Luffy

It?s funny to hear you tell me to use a brain when the manga clearly shows Mihawk?s superiority in 80% of his stats yet you tell me Kizaru is better but you know... _if it makes you feel better_ jk jk.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 6, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Mind telling me where I said Kizaru can?t keep up with G2 Luffy?
> 
> He can?t catch him in BASE when he doesn?t have anything like soru. That is a fact that you have yet to disprove cause well, you know....one guy runs faster _than the eye can see_ while the other has no tech other than devil fruit that gives him that ability and never showcases any feats in base.



Aokiji just jumped over a hundred foot in less than a second, a vice admiral was using soru. So you still believe Kizaru isn't capable of speed feats without his DF?

I knew you would pull the "no worthy opponent" card yet it does not change anything since I certainly take a guy who can dodge bullets without lookin and track gear 2 movements more seriously than one who can barely dodge sword strikes.



> Last i checked his sword is still intact and besides I certainly take Mihawk?s words over yours.



and he said he has CoA so strong that it doesn't break right? Mind showing me panels of that. His sword is considered the one of the greatest. Quality of sword matters.



> Also the guy who taught Zoro armament is likely to have better haki than Kizaru, wouldn?t you agree?



Based on fucking what. Garp is a better puncher than Luffy and he taught Coby. Maybe Coby can punch better than Luffy too? That's how dumb this sounds.



> Where is the proof that the gap is big? I dunno ask Beckman and G2 Luffy.



Beckman is so much big of a deal huh, then why the fuck didn't he stop Kizaru when Kizaru went on? Care to explain?



> And he certainly didn?t block Whitebeard he just stood on his bisento after lasering him.. then Whitebeard went on to ignore him and instead watched Luffy



Rly? the WSM just stood there when everybody is dying and he is on the wrong side of the war. Told you you are irrational



> It?s funny to hear you tell me to use a brain when the manga clearly shows Mihawk?s superiority in 80% of his stats yet you tell me Kizaru is better but you know... _if it makes you feel better_ jk jk.



I kept providing you with actual manga scenes that happened. But u just keep replying with dumb questions that has no back up. Now I doubt u actually have a brain.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 6, 2015)

Trance said:


> Exactly. _In the past_. Their last duel was before Shanks lost his arm which was 12 years ago. A lot can happen in 12 years. Having said that, I do think they're on pretty comparable terms now but using the fact that their last duel was over a decade ago has never been a good argument.



Don't you think their physical stats should be proportional, though? 
We already know they've got different sets of specialties: swordsmanship and willpower. 

A clear disparity between base stats is very unlikely, in my opinion. I believe it ultimately depends on the areas you think each character grew in. They clearly grew and surpassed the specialties of each other, but I'm not under the impression that physical stats are incomparable between the two.



> Talking strictly portrayal, no he doesn't. Mihawk was delegated to fighting Vista while Kizaru contended with Marco. Vista isn't weak by any means but obviously, he's not as strong as Marco. They both initated assaults on Whitebeard directly only to be halted by a commander. Only difference is, Kizaru was again matched against the stronger commander.



I don't think Vista is that much weaker than Marco, though. There's nothing that actually suggests it. Marco, Jozu and Vista are relatively close in strength from the way I see things. All three of them are admiral-level individuals with different strengths/weaknesses, though match-ups always play a role. A weak person doesn't stalemate Mihawk in swordsmanship. If Mihawk could have defeated him without a difficult fight then and there, I'm sure he would have done it. Otherwise, there's no reason why he postponed the fight himself. I think having to take down Marco with a distraction and Onigumo's assistance via Kairouseki isn't very comparable in quality to Vista stalemating Mihawk.

Marco and Vista were also portrayed side by side in their confrontation with Akainu, so he's definitely special among Whitebeard Pirates. They were the only members known to have damaged him other than WB, and it's also impressive that Vista came out of Marineford with no injuries - even after having a skirmish with Akainu/Mihawk - but you don't have to agree with my placement of Vista. I rate Marco/Jozu/Vista much higher than most posters around here, as they sort of share an M3-like dynamic of Luffy/Zoro/Sanji before the timeskip.

Also, the admirals' reactions to Mihawk stepping up - not to mention his scene of cutting the iceberg - is quite a good portrayal in itself. No one really seemed to have been in awe regarding Kizaru's YnM. It basically got stalemated by Marco's ability and somehow parried by Law's submarine.



> I'm not arguing for nor against Mihawk in this match at the moment but there are better ways to argue his superiority than this.



Not really. When we take away their main weapons, it's very hard to determine how powerful they'd be. A majority of Mihawk's strength is completely natural, though, and his feats with Yoru justify that. The admirals are undoubtedly powerful without their fruits; I'm not going to disagree with that. However, I have to give people like Mihawk the advantage in the department, seeing they've naturally honed their abilities without supplementary assistance.



jNdee~ said:


> oh okay, here we go again with WSM but old sick WB so he aint strong enough. That damaged WB stopped a paddle ship with a single hand. He should've been able to back Kizaru down, but he didn't. and of course he won't damage Marco by using CQC alone, he ain't Garp man. And from what we've seen, 3 Admirals were WB level in separate instances. See that. That's a flawed argument on your side



What I'm trying to say: It's difficult to scale one of the admirals in that situation when Jozu blocked Mihawk's slash, considering the defense took on its damage and ultimately came down to physical strength between the two. Jozu was proven to be more powerful than Mihawk when he casually threw the slash above him. 

Admirals and Marco are on the same level as Marineford Whitebeard (overall). Even though Whitebeard is stronger than any of them individually, it's not by very much. All of them have different abilities that work better in one situation compared to another, but we're mainly talking about physical strength here. So it doesn't surprise me if Marco and C3 are comparable to Marineford Whitebeard in physical strength. I'm not really trying to flaw the argument, but it's somewhat accepted to bring up WB as WSM in arguments when the statement is ambiguous and doesn't necessarily refer to physical strength - overall strength, rather - and it doesn't factor in weaknesses before/after the war began. Jozu still has better feats than Whitebeard in that department. He's physically stronger than Marineford Whitebeard, C3 or Marco from concrete feats. Regardless, Mihawk does have better strength feats than Kizaru - even if the former is weaker than Jozu - and that's what I'm trying to point out.



> So you're saying that Vista is also physically stronger than Kiz? How about when Croc blocked him? lol. And Jozu didn't need his fruit to stop Mihawk's slash. and in this fight, there ain't no swords



If Vista is just as physically strong as Mihawk - something that is unknown - then I guess he would be stronger than Kizaru in that department.

And I thought Mihawk deflected an attack from Crocodile when he wasn't focused on him in the first place? 

I'd figured that's what the reaction of surprise meant.



> That's a lot of if's tho, but you're using a sword slash to cover up for Mihawk's lack of Hand to Hand combat skills. That's like saying that Mihawk would've died in the war if he didn't have his sword.



It's not that I'm trying to cover up Mihawk's lack of skill in CQC. Kizaru hasn't shown any type of fighting style in CQC, either, which is why I'm going by pure feats. When their main weapons are taken away, physical strength is the only thing able to be scaled between these two.



> Dude, he held WB down with a single foot, and he's a freakin Admiral. If a VA or even a CP9 heck even Coby is capable of things like Rokushiki then there's nothing wrong to assume that an Admiral has at least a knowledge or skill of using basic rokushiki.



I'm not saying you're wrong, man. That's your opinion if you think Kizaru can use Rokushiki, but there's no evidence of such. Marco happens to be a CQC-oriented fighter that hasn't shown any type of fighting style, but I don't go around claiming he can use one. I respect your opinion, though, and I've got no room to say you are incorrect. My post was coming from a perspective of feats, however.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> Aokiji just jumped over a hundred foot in less than a second, a vice admiral was using soru. So you still believe Kizaru isn't capable of speed feats without his DF?
> 
> 
> and he said he has CoA so strong that it doesn't break right? Mind showing me panels of that. His sword is considered the one of the greatest. Quality of sword matters.
> ...



a) the guy we are talking about is KIZARU not AOKIJI
b) he didn?t use soru. Don?t make shit up. Might as well say Mihawk used Soru to keep up with G2 Luffy but I?m not dumb enough to pull this out of my ass unlike you. If you believe the admirals are capable of speed feats without devil fruits then why is it that Akainu needed to bait Ace to make him stop running away?

Mihawk?s sword did not break and he implied that it?s shameful to get your sword cracked. If you can not understand what this implies then I can?t help you. All I can take from this scene is that Mihawk has amazing armament while Kizaru does not, unless you show me anything that gives Kizaru equal hype then it remains a fact that Mihawk>Kizaru in armament. And yes QUALITY of the swords matters so much that Zoro had to check his sword after his fight against PICA. fucking lol.


And why the fuck would Coby be a better puncher if he has been hundred times weaker than Luffy from the very start? No training in the world can make up such a gap.

Because Beckman came to STOP the war not trigger another one. Learn to read the manga man. And nobody cares if Beckman is a big deal or not. I compared the scenes to show you that Mihawk?s reactions>Kizaru?s not to show you how great beckman is.

"_Rly? the WSM just stood there when everybody is dying and he is on the wrong side of the war. Told you you are irrational_"

I have no idea where you want to go with this. Fact of the matter is that Whitebeard obviously didn?t try to free himself for good reasons. I mean... if someone points a gun at you in real life would you try to pull your weapon up and provoke him to shoot you? ... yeah, didn?t think so. And that?s basically the gist of what happened in the Whitebeard-Kizaru incidence. So stop trying to hype this as a strength feat for Kizaru. You are basically saying that Kizaru is pyhsically stronger than Whitebeard. Who the fuck is the irrational one here when saying things like this?

You mean you provide panels with made up interpretations... yeah that?s what you do I gotcha. If you were actually a smart person you would give Kizaru real feats like the one where he was shown capable to track down G2 Luffy when Luffy ran through him but I guess you are unable to do at least that much so I will just leave you alone now.


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## Imagine_Breaker (Aug 6, 2015)

Kizaru wins mid-mid to mid-high difficulty or so.


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## TheWiggian (Aug 6, 2015)

The Mihawk hate is strong lately


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 6, 2015)

In a pure box fight, Mihawk would lose ... I guess DFless Kizaru would be stronger than any other DFless Admiral including MF Akainu.


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## Six (Aug 6, 2015)

Next people are gonna say that Zoro can beat Sanji without his swords or even Kaku or mister 1.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 6, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Next people are gonna say that Zoro can beat Sanji without his swords or even Kaku or mister 1.



Sanji doesn't have a fruit that provides most of his power, though. 
Kizaru isn't the same character as Sanji. And it's not like Zoro is just some piece of trash without his swords. He's got some of the best durability, endurance and stamina among high-tier combatants. His physical strength has been noted on many different occasions, as well.

If EoS Sanji ends up taking on Kizaru and defeating him, that only means the former is much stronger (naturally).


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 6, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> The Mihawk hate is strong lately



not strong, the haters are just desparate


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## Six (Aug 6, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Sanji doesn't have a fruit that provides most of his power, though.
> Kizaru isn't the same character as Sanji. And it's not like Zoro is just some piece of trash without his swords. He's got some of the best durability, endurance and stamina among high-tier combatants. His physical strength has been noted on many different occasions, as well.
> 
> If EoS Sanji ends up taking on Kizaru and defeating him, that only means the former is much stronger (naturally).



Everybody has something that is the source of most of their power.

Mihawk has the strongest black sword in the world. It has been canon since Thriller Bark that the better your sword, the more damage output you can create .

Kizaru and the other admirals have their fruits and Luffy has his fruit. Stop taking shit away from people.

And no, Zoro is NOT beating Sanji without his swords. From the day he picked up the sword and lived his life a swordsman he's been trained in one art. It doesn't matter how great his physical abilities are if he doesn't have the technique to execute them. Stop being a damn fanboy, Zoro is not a hand to hand fighter and has never been trained as one.

You fanboys resort to making me bash one of my favorite characters with your rabid fanboyism.

Whats next? Luffy with his superior physical stats is beating Sanji with only swords and not using any of his rubber powers right?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 6, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Everybody has something that is the source of most of their power.



Clearly. The extent of which depends on the character and his/her abilities, though.



> Mihawk has the strongest black sword in the world. It has been canon since Thriller Bark that the better your sword, the more damage output you can create .



More so the only blade that can handle Mihawk's full power and properly channel it



> Kizaru and the other admirals have their fruits and Luffy has his fruit. Stop taking shit away from people.



Taking shit away from people? I'm not taking away anything. Just stating facts~

Top tiers without DFs are strong for a reason. Do you think that's a point of contention?



> And no, Zoro is NOT beating Sanji without his swords. From the day he picked up the sword and lived his life a swordsman he's been trained in one art. It doesn't matter how great his physical abilities are if he doesn't have the technique to execute them. Stop being a damn fanboy, Zoro is not a hand to hand fighter and has never been trained as one.



Where did I say or imply that Zoro can defeat Sanji without swords? 



> You fanboys resort to making me bash one of my favorite characters with your rabid fanboyism.
> 
> Whats next? Luffy with his superior physical stats is beating Sanji with only swords and not using any of his rubber powers right?



That doesn't relate to anything we're talking about.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 6, 2015)

Swordless zoro would lose to Sanji


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 6, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Swordless zoro would lose to Sanji



Agree, that wouldn't be even funny for Zoro ...
Zoro (swordless) <<< Sanji
Zoro (1 sword) < Sanji
Zoro (2 swords) = Sanji
Zoro (3 swords) > Sanji


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## trance (Aug 7, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> A clear disparity between base stats is very unlikely, in my opinion. I believe it ultimately depends on the areas you think each character grew in. They clearly grew and surpassed the specialties of each other, but I'm not under the impression that physical stats are incomparable between the two.



I never said they weren't comparable. It may even be possible Mihawk is above Shanks in the physical department. However, it's entirely inconclusive due to a number of factors and we may never find out. 

My point is, we can't instantly scale Mihawk from to Shanks because of the fact they haven't fought on equal terms in 12 years. It's not clear cut.



> I don't think Vista is that much weaker than Marco, though. There's nothing that actually suggests it.



I don't think he's much weaker at all. However, he's weaker regardless. Overall anyway.



> A weak person doesn't stalemate Mihawk in swordsmanship. If Mihawk could have defeated him without a difficult fight then and there, I'm sure he would have done it.



Again, I never said he was weak compared to Mihawk. Mihawk is stronger but the fight proved that Vista is capable of engaging Mihawk on comparable standing for a good length of time. It's not uncommon for a weaker character to fight against a stronger character and not only avoid getting crushed but fight on par with them to a certain extent.



> I think having to take down Marco with a distraction and Onigumo's assistance via Kairouseki isn't very comparable in quality to Vista stalemating Mihawk.



But prior to those Kairoseki shenanigans, Kizaru and Marco were effectively in a deadlock same as Mihawk/Vista.



> Also, the admirals' reactions to Mihawk stepping up - not to mention his scene of cutting the iceberg - is quite a good portrayal in itself.



None of the Admirals said anything when Mihawk stepped up. That was Doffy.


*Spoiler*: __ 








As for his iceberg feat, no one worth noting commented on it.


*Spoiler*: __ 










> It basically got stalemated by Marco's ability



Yes. Same with Mihawk's slash versus Jozu's ability. They're nearly identical to each other.

>Both launch direct assaults against Whitebeard
>Both had their respective attacks countered by a top level commander

That's what happened.



> Not really. When we take away their main weapons, it's very hard to determine how powerful they'd be. A majority of Mihawk's strength is completely natural, though, and his feats with Yoru justify that. The admirals are undoubtedly powerful without their fruits; I'm not going to disagree with that. However, I have to give people like Mihawk the advantage in the department, seeing they've naturally honed their abilities without supplementary assistance.



As I've said, I'm not arguing for nor against Mihawk here, at the moment at least. However, these arguments aren't as believable as you can make them since Mihawk's portrayal isn't exactly the best amongst top tiers.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 7, 2015)

Trance... I'll respond to you later, man. 
And I must have gotten mixed up with the anime, regarding the reactions I'd mentioned. 

I read the manga and watch the anime, so it's easy to get mixed up sometimes.


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## Coruscation (Aug 7, 2015)

Kizaru clearly comes off better in this scenario. He incorporates element of H2H combat into his fighting style, he uses his limbs for attack and defense. It doesn't take anything away from Mihawk to say that he's fully specialized in his swordsmanship; that's what he cares about and that's what he's worked for. Doflamingo and Law are also more "branched out" than Mihawk in that same sense, but Mihawk is way above them regardless. Without his sword, Mihawk would still retain quick reactions, high perception and high physical abilities but virtually all his specialized skill goes down the drain whilst Kizaru keeps a good portion of his. If two fighters seem closely matched in attributes, skill is the deciding factor. Kizaru wins high difficulty.


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## Imagine (Aug 7, 2015)

Kizaru as he is the better h2h fighter. Mihawk is still going to make him work for it, though. His strength, speed, durability and haki are still top notch. 

And even preskip Zoro could do a swordless tatsumaki.


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## ShadoLord (Aug 7, 2015)

Mihawk>Kizaru

Both loses their main fighting power still means that Mihawk is winning.


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## Amol (Aug 7, 2015)

Kizaru obviously doesn't lose his fighting style .
Instead of kicking with speed of light he will kick normally.
His essential fighting style remains constant.
Mihawk excels in Swordsmanship.
He is not a HxH fighter .
In skill department as CQC fighter Kizaru obviously surpasses Mihawk.
Mihawk definitely loses here.


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## ShadoLord (Aug 7, 2015)

Amol said:


> Kizaru obviously doesn't lose his fighting style .
> Instead of kicking with speed of light he will kick normally.
> His essential fighting style remains constant.
> Mihawk is excels in Swordsmanship.
> ...



Are you kidding around? 

All of the C3's main fighting style is being reliant on their df abilities.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 10, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Kizaru as he is the better h2h fighter. Mihawk is still going to make him work for it, though. His strength, speed, durability and haki are still top notch.
> 
> *And even preskip Zoro could do a swordless tatsumaki*.



Forgot about this

Swordless Mihawk is probably close to admiral tier already


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 10, 2015)

Kizaru wins


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## Grimm6Jack (Aug 11, 2015)

What the fuck am I reading?

Mihawk loses his sword... Yes, he loses the ability to cut and a bit of reach... But his massive speed, reactions, ability to dodge and counter-attack, his physical strength is still retained.

Kizaru on the other hand loses his Devil Fruit, the thing that he uses 100% of the time in this manga, the thing that massively enhances his speed and attack power, as well as his reach.


It's obvious that Mihawk has the advantage here, but this is still not going to be an easy fight.


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## tanman (Aug 11, 2015)

In a normal fight, I'd place these two as equals. 
In this, I'd lead towards Kizaru. I suspicion that Kizaru is still fast as fuck without his fruit and is a physical fighter already. But Mihawk presumably looses the vast majority of his damage output.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 11, 2015)

Grimm said:


> What the fuck am I reading?
> 
> Mihawk loses his sword... Yes, he loses the ability to cut and a bit of reach... But his massive speed, reactions, ability to dodge and counter-attack, his physical strength is still retained.
> 
> ...



Kizaru could be a "Head-butter" like Shanks 

At least he has a more legitimate claim of being a "Kicker"


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## Freechoice (Aug 11, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Next people are gonna say that Zoro can beat Sanji without his swords or even Kaku or mister 1.



They already do


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## Freechoice (Aug 11, 2015)

Can anyone really imagine

Shanks being stalemated by Vista 

Shanks' attacks being dodged by Luffy 

Shanks clashing with Crocodile 

< Goes to attack Whitebeard

< Laughed at and subsequently blocked by the 2nd commander 

Yeah, Mihawk's definitely stronger


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## zoro_santoryu (Aug 11, 2015)

Mihawk wins with his long nails inbued with haki, mid dif


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## Ekkologix (Aug 11, 2015)

Good sword users that don't rely on DF's usually have really high physical strength to produce the epic sword slashes.

I think Kizaru will be nerfed more than Mihawk. Think how Zoro can execute swordless slashes? Imagine what Mihawk can do with just his hands.

*Mihawk high diff*


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## Ekkologix (Aug 11, 2015)

lol said:


> Can anyone really imagine
> 
> Shanks being stalemated by Vista
> 
> ...



Shanks almost got soloed by the sea king that Luffy 1 shot.


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## Freechoice (Aug 12, 2015)

Go D. Usopp said:


> Shanks almost got soloed by the sea king that Luffy 1 shot.



You're right

But it was back when Oda envisioned the series being short and Shanks not being a major, strong character. 

That argument never holds


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## Tenma (Aug 12, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Mihawk is swordless while Kizaru has no DF.
> 
> Location : Underwater



Kizaru would obviously have less experience swimming so he loses.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 12, 2015)

lol said:


> Can anyone really imagine
> 
> Mihawk losing to Higuma
> 
> ...



No


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## Freechoice (Aug 12, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> No



You crafty bastard


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## Kid (Aug 12, 2015)

So basically a brawl?

leaning towards Kiz then

also why underwater


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 16, 2015)

lol said:


> Can anyone really imagine
> 
> Shanks being stalemated by Vista
> 
> ...



Shanks got hurt by pre ts Blackbeard


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Shanks got hurt by pre ts Blackbeard



........................................

Yea, after drawing with Mihawk.

Clearly no DF BB > Mihawk as well then clearly.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 16, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> ........................................
> 
> Yea, after drawing with Mihawk.
> 
> Clearly no DF BB > Mihawk as well then clearly.



Way to read the manga properly Juvia. Blackbeard scarred Shanks in their time as rookies on Roger/Whitebeard?s ship. You aren?t telling me you believe they met 10 years later by any chance on the vast oceans and a Blackbeard who could barely do shit to Luffy, Magellan and Ace could scar a Shanks that Whitebeard himself praised, are you?


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## Freechoice (Aug 16, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Way to read the manga properly Juvia. Blackbeard scarred Shanks in their time as rookies on Roger/Whitebeard?s ship. You aren?t telling me you believe they met 10 years later by any chance on the vast oceans and a Blackbeard who could barely do shit to Luffy, Magellan and Ace could scar a Shanks that Whitebeard himself praised, are you?



The whole BB scarring Shanks is a dumb argument if you're using it to downplay Shanks.

For all we know he got it as a kid. He already had it at the start of the series

We also have no idea about the circumstances surrounding it.

Also Whitebeard didn't praise the scar...


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## Quipchaque (Aug 16, 2015)

Uh who the hell said Whitebeard praised the scar? Clearly that?s not what I wrote.

 Besides in case you didn?t notice you just said the same things as I did. 

"for all we know he got it as kid" is what you said

"blackeard scarred shanks in their time as rookies on Wb/Roger?s ship" is what I said.

So why quote me and argue as if I said the exact opposite?


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## Freechoice (Aug 16, 2015)

BECAUSE I FUCKING FELT LIKE IT


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## Quipchaque (Aug 16, 2015)

ok cool.


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Way to read the manga properly Juvia. Blackbeard scarred Shanks in their time as rookies on Roger/Whitebeard?s ship. You aren?t telling me you believe they met 10 years later by any chance on the vast oceans and a Blackbeard who could barely do shit to Luffy, Magellan and Ace could scar a Shanks that Whitebeard himself praised, are you?



What no he didn't... Shanks didn't have the scar at Rogers execution...


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## Canute87 (Aug 16, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> What no he didn't... Shanks didn't have the scar at Rogers execution...



His face was hidden in the two times the roger execution scenes were shown.


He also has the scar as part of his jolly roger.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 16, 2015)

Shanks and Teach likely have some history together, which is why I think the scar came from long ago. 
They seem to be close in age and could have been normal opponents when Shanks was sailing under Roger.


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