# Obito vs BM Naruto



## Panther (Apr 7, 2013)

Location: Madara vs Kages.

Distance: 100m

Mindset: Intent to kill

Restrictions: None

Knowledge: Manga

- Obito has his 6 Paths/Bijuu,Gedou appears to aid Obito after the Bijuu are defeated. 
- 5 minute canon intangibility for Obito, Izangi w/ Kamui eye allowed.
- Assume Naruto has extended his 5 minute BM mode limit to 10.
- BM Naruto can make max 5 BM clones and 13RM clones.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 7, 2013)

Naruto soloed the 6th Paths in BM Mode.

So it all depends on Obito vs Naruto. Gedo Mazou is too large to do anything to Naruto. It's probably a stalemate.


----------



## Panther (Apr 7, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> we already saw this happen in the manga. obito low diff.


 Did you read the OP instead of posting a useless response like you always do in Naruto vs matches because there is a huge difference between this Naruto and the one from the Manga.

The Naruto from the manga was for an entire day and night in RM and then made 13 RM clones which gave Kurama the chance to drain his chakra 13x faster then normally possible, because of that Naruto kept switching from RM to base most of the time in his fight against Obito and since he was low on chakra he couldn't spam RM clones and flash shunshin which is the best counter against Obito's S/T jutsu.


----------



## richard lewis (Apr 7, 2013)

Obito wins, naruto isn't gunna be able to beat all 6 biju by himself, and even if he could he won't enough chakra left to take down obito afterwards. However if naruto can summon all 3 boss frogs and give them a 9 tails chakra cloak boost he might be able to take it.


----------



## Magician (Apr 7, 2013)

Naruto can't _hit_ Obito though. He can't win this without Kakashi.


----------



## richard lewis (Apr 7, 2013)

BDProductions34 said:


> Naruto can't _hit_ Obito though. He can't win this without Kakashi.



Naruto could possibly trick obito into warping a clone then attack obito and when he phases the clone could kill him from kamui land. Either that or naruto could summon ma and pa and use frog song.


----------



## Magician (Apr 7, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Naruto could possibly trick obito into warping a clone then attack obito and when he phases the clone could kill him from kamui land. Either that or naruto could summon ma and pa and use frog song.



Can he summon Ma and Pa though? I remember it taking Jiraiya a while to do it, so I'm guessing its a learned skill and I've only seen Ma summon Naruto and them but I could be wrong.


----------



## Panther (Apr 7, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Obito wins, naruto isn't gunna be able to beat all 6 biju by himself, and even if he could he won't enough chakra left to take down obito afterwards. However if naruto can summon all 3 boss frogs and give them a 9 tails chakra cloak boost he might be able to take it.


 BM Naruto fodderized 5 bijuu's, one more bijuu against BM Naruto won't make much difference seeing as he can make 13 RM clones which can aid BM Naruto from within the chakra cloack spaming FRS and Mini - TBB.

Also what makes you think Naruto won't have enough chakra to take on 
Obito after he deals with the Bijuu's ? Remember that BM Naruto can stay for 10 minuten in BM in this fight and it only took him 5 minutes in canon to deal with Obito's Neo Paths, even if Naruto's BM runs out he still has RM and his RM clones.



BDProductions34 said:


> Naruto can't _hit_ Obito though. He can't win this without Kakashi.


 RM clone spam counters Obito's S/T jutsu. Obito can't distinguish the real Naruto from the clones and if he tries to warp one of those 13 RM clones he risks of getting blitzed by a flash shunshin


----------



## blk (Apr 7, 2013)

After that Obito's Paths will be defeated (which will be an easier task than how it was in canon, thanks to the added knowledge) i see the following as the two most likely outcomes of the battle:

- Obito himself with the Gedo continously harass Naruto to the point where the BM finish (since Naruto can't hit Obito, and the latter has knowledge of the time limit of the BM).
Without the Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto gets warped or stomped by the Gedo.

- Obito starts to transform the Gedo into the Juubi, while he keeps on attacking Naruto.
Since Naruto can't hit Obito, eventually the Juubi will awaken and kill the former.

In short, Obito wins with relative ease.


----------



## Panther (Apr 7, 2013)

blk said:


> - Obito himself with the Gedo continously harass Naruto to the point where the BM finish (since Naruto can't hit Obito, and the latter has knowledge of the time limit of the BM).
> Without the Kyuubi's chakra, Naruto gets warped or stomped by the Gedo


 It took Naruto only 5min to deal with the Bijuu's in canon, that leaves Naruto with another 5min of BM and since he starts fresh in this fight he can make 13 RM clones without needing to worry about Kurama draining his chakra.



> - Obito starts to transform the Gedo into the Juubi, while he keeps on attacking Naruto.
> Since Naruto can't hit Obito, eventually the Juubi will awaken and kill the former.
> 
> In short, Obito wins with relative ease.


 With the knowledge he has i doubt Naruto will give Obito the chance to transform Gedou into Juubi. Naruto can easily destroy Gedou with Rapidfire Bijuudama or with Super Bijuudama while 13 RM clones stall Obito.


----------



## blk (Apr 7, 2013)

Panther said:


> It took Naruto only 5min to deal with the Bijuu's in canon, that leaves Naruto with another 5min of BM and since he starts fresh in this fight he can make 13 RM clones without needing to worry about Kurama draining his chakra.



But after those additional five minutes, the BM will finish and Naruto will be defenseless.



> With the knowledge he has i doubt Naruto will give Obito the chance to transform Gedou into Juubi. Naruto can easily destroy Gedou with Rapidfire Bijuudama or with Super Bijuudama while 13 RM clones stall Obito.



Didn't Obito's barrier protect the Gedo from Naruto and Bee's combined Bijuudama?


----------



## Panther (Apr 7, 2013)

blk said:


> But after those additional five minutes, the BM will finish and Naruto will be defenseless.


 Well this is how it went in canon but we can't forget that in canon. Naruto faced Obito while being low on RM chakra and kept switching from RM to Base troughout his fight, since he previously spent almost 2 day's in RM and split his chakra into 13 RM clones which in turn spammed jutsu's left and righ before he faced Obito.

This Naruto on the other hand is fresh and didn't spend a full day and night in RM before he split his chakra into 13 clones, so Naruto still has his RM chakra reserves and doesn't need to worry about Kurama draining his chakra since they are friends now, that still leaves RM Naruto with 13 RM clones against Obito.


> Didn't Obito's barrier protect the Gedo from Naruto and Bee's combined Bijuudama?


 Naruto's and Bee's combined Bijuudama actually destroyed Obito's barrier but the Juubi tanked it like nothing lol she punched aside the fireballs she punched aside the fireballs


----------



## blk (Apr 7, 2013)

Panther said:


> Well this is how it went in canon but we can't forget that in canon. Naruto faced Obito while being low on RM chakra and kept switching from RM to Base troughout his fight, since he previously spent almost 2 day's in RM and split his chakra into 13 RM clones which in turn spammed jutsu's left and righ before he faced Obito.
> 
> This Naruto on the other hand is fresh and didn't spend a full day and night in RM before he split his chakra into 13 clones, so Naruto still has his RM chakra reserves and doesn't need to worry about Kurama draining his chakra since they are friends now, that still leaves RM Naruto with 13 RM clones against Obito.



Both BM and RM use Kurama's chakra, but the former consumes it fastly while the latter more slowly (because of the evident difference in power between the two modes).
These modes do not use different sources of power.

When Naruto lost the BM the second time that he used it (he could because Kurama can recharge his chakra very fastly), he returned to base.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 7, 2013)

Yeah Naruto wins this.

Even while holding back his power in order to not kill the other bijuu, Naruto was able to defeat 5 of them after they bijuudama clashed.  Naruto was able to match the combined power of 5 bijuus despite prepping his attack far later than their's and considering the size of the combined bijuudama in addition to the fact that he wasn't trying to kill the other bijuus rather free them from Obito's control, he most definitely could make a bigger one in order to accommodate the 6th bijuu.

Firing guided FRS via KCM clones either out of the cloak or protected from within his chakra tails will more than make up for Bee's assistance in the physical combat part of the fight as just one FRS is enough to incapacitate even the most durable of bijuu.

So bijuudama clash eventually happens or after naruto knocks a bijuu out, he sends his chakra tails with KCM clone and pulls out the stake, defeating the bijuu.

After that, BM Naruto will have around 4 minutes left ( assumption is that 5 minutes = 5 bijuu in canon so 6 minutes = 6 bijuu) in BM. 

Considering how much more superior BM Naruto and his firepower is to a non-bijuudama using Bee, base naruto, 6th gated gai and non-kamui kakashi, Gedo Mazou gets taken down quite easily either by waves of FRS or machinegun dama.

Finally it becomes Obito vs Naruto.  With manga knowledge, Naruto will cancel his Kyuubi avatar and fight Obito in his human form which the time limit does not apply to.  Since it's not a 4 vs 1 fight and he isn't low on KCM chakra and is trying to kill obito rather than simply remove his mask, Naruto will summon multiple KCM clones, 1 base clone and 1 sage clone, and then have both clones do tajuu kagebunshin no jutsu.

  From here on out, Obito is pretty much screwed. With manga knowledge and intent to kill, Naruto isn't going to be using a normal rasengan to beat Obito, he's going to be using oodama rasengan, chou oodama, FRS, fuuton rasengan, or bijuurasengan. In order to even attack one of them, he has to become tangible, thus being wide open to getting counter attacked via a rasengan flash shunshined into him at a speed that no one in manga canon has yet to be able to react to or simply hit by a clone standing near himself.  If he opts to fire spikes or use his powerful katon, a thrown FRS or COR from base, sage or KCM clones end him as it takes him longer to become intangible after warping things.  And then of course there is the fact that Naruto tricks him into warping a clone which is pretty much gg.



blk said:


> Didn't Obito's barrier protect the Gedo from Naruto and Bee's combined Bijuudama?



what evidence compels you to think that the barrier protected Gedo Mazou from even a noteworthy amount of Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama?

- The best thing the purple flame barrier protected Gedo from was a Hachibi punch, that's tier beyond tiers lower than even a substandard bijuudama.
- A standard bijuudama by itself blows through multiple island-sized barriers without even exploding, barriers that were specifically made to stop bijuu and were actively being powered by many barrier specialists.
- the barrier sprung up from the ground and did not move from its original position after bee punched it, and thus it was destroyed by the combined bijuudama's mere travel damage as the dama met the barrier and continued on forward and exploded  20+ miles away from where GM as it would not have been able to move from its original position unless destroyed.
- the juubi is durable to the extreme, it survived having it's own bijuudama (which on a whole nother level than the combined) go off inside of itself and is still fighting, thus it does have the feats to tank the combined bijuudama.

Now what evidence do you have that the barrier in fact DID take a significant amount of the bijuudama's power?  Because merely stating "you can't prove it to a 100% certainty" while not burdening your own arguments with that same standard is in fact a double standard on your part.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 7, 2013)

Remember, Naruto was exhausted by the time of the Obito battle and when Naruto gained Bijuu mode, he stomped the 5 Bijuus.


Naruto fodderizes the Bijuus. Then he makes 10 clones and attack Obito. obito can't warp the clones as the clones can attack him from kamui land.


----------



## richard lewis (Apr 7, 2013)

BDProductions34 said:


> Can he summon Ma and Pa though? I remember it taking Jiraiya a while to do it, so I'm guessing its a learned skill and I've only seen Ma summon Naruto and them but I could be wrong.



Jiraita took a long time b/c he was fusing with ma and pa which is more complex than just a regular summoning jutsu. I would imagine naruto can summon them the same as any other summon.



Panther said:


> BM Naruto fodderized 5 bijuu's, one more bijuu against BM Naruto won't make much difference seeing as he can make 13 RM clones which can aid BM Naruto from within the chakra cloack spaming FRS and Mini - TBB.
> 
> Also what makes you think Naruto won't have enough chakra to take on
> Obito after he deals with the Bijuu's ? Remember that BM Naruto can stay for 10 minuten in BM in this fight and it only took him 5 minutes in canon to deal with Obito's Neo Paths, even if Naruto's BM runs out he still has RM and his RM clones.
> ...



No that I reread the chapter naruto did pretty much solo the other 5 biju..... However he did get a little bit of assistance from bee. 

I dont really see how spamming clones is gunna help against obito, naruto never once landed a blow on obito w/o kakashi's help. I think it is going to much more difficult than you think, im 50/50 on this.


----------



## blk (Apr 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> what evidence compels you to think that the barrier protected Gedo Mazou from even a noteworthy amount of Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama?



Mine was a question, not an assertion.


----------



## Ersa (Apr 8, 2013)

Obito wins with high difficulty.

He can't beat Naruto in a head-to-head fight but with Gedo Mazo/6 Paths and Kamui he can stall Naruto until the BM limit runs out and then he beats the shit of Base Naruto.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

blk said:


> Mine was a question, not an assertion.


from my point of view, the way you phrased your question was you taking a formal stance and asking for evidence to be provided in order to disprove your stance without fullfilling a burden of proof of your own.

However, if you are merely asking an neutral question, then I am mistaken and you have no burden of proof.


----------



## Kai (Apr 8, 2013)

Rasant said:


> He can't beat Naruto in a head-to-head fight but with Gedo Mazo/6 Paths and Kamui he can stall Naruto until the BM limit runs out and then he beats the shit of Base Naruto.


You're kidding right?

Tobito already beat Naruto in a one on one fight without using Gedo Mazo/Bijuu Paths at the same time. Naruto was plotting coordinated attacks with Gai and still needed Kakashi to save his life.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Naruto will summon multiple KCM clones, 1 base clone and 1 sage clone, and then have both clones do tajuu kagebunshin no jutsu.


Naruto only uses TKB when he is in base or absolutely desperate. In SM, KCM, and BM it simply isn't viable, possible, or reasonable. Take your pick. 



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> From here on out, Obito is pretty much screwed. With manga knowledge and intent to kill, Naruto isn't going to be using a normal rasengan to beat Obito, he's going to be using oodama rasengan, chou oodama, FRS, fuuton rasengan, or bijuurasengan. In order to even attack one of them, he has to become tangible, thus being wide open to getting counter attacked via a rasengan flash shunshined into him at a speed that no one in manga canon has yet to be able to react to or simply hit by a clone standing near himself. If he opts to fire spikes or use his powerful katon, a thrown FRS or COR from base, sage or KCM clones end him as it takes him longer to become intangible after warping things. And then of course there is the fact that Naruto tricks him into warping a clone which is pretty much gg.


None of this pays respect to the manga whatsoever. It was made clear that Naruto needed his teammates, especially Kakashi, to fight Tobi and his Kamui powers.

A BM clone flashblitzing Tobito while another clone fights him? Naruto hasn't shown anything in his fight with Tobi that proves he can do any of your ridiculous propositions, let alone *solo* against him to which he already lost.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> Naruto only uses TKB when he is in base or absolutely desperate. In SM, KCM, and BM it simply isn't viable, possible, or reasonable. Take your pick.


Only reason he can't do TKB in SM is when he has clones gathering chakra elsewhere, or if he wants to use 3 SM FRS.  Other than that he used TKB in SM against Deva and disguised them as rocks and TKB against Kurama while in SM.

KCM we've already seen he can make 13+ KCM clones after spamming the mode for an entire night, morning, after a scuffle with ei and white zetsus, and that was when Naruto was getting his chakra reserves cleaned by Kurama.  In Naruto's actual war arc fights, he didn't have the ability to make KCM clones after her split his chakra so many ways previously.  We even saw what would happen if he tried to attempt at clone after his fight with nagato.  And his clone even said that he wasn't able to make clones in that form when lee asked him about using KB.

Later against Tobi, it was a 4 vs 1 situation, Naruto wasn't trying to kill Tobi, and after the first chapter of scuffling in which naruto merely used 1 clone as a distraction, they switched to the kamui tactic because it was more efficient.

BM Naruto, you have a case for since he has only shown to make a max of 3 clones on panel, and thus that is the max he can make.

So no, using TKB in SM in this situation is all three: viable, possible and reasonable.  Using multiple KCM clones is as well.  



Kai said:


> None of this pays respect to the manga whatsoever. It was made clear that Naruto needed his teammates, especially Kakashi, to fight Tobi and his Kamui powers.


that's like saying "it was made clear that Madara would get bisected if he goes up against Lee" or "Sai + Kankuro > Deidara and Sasori" simply because it happened in the manga.

Do you think KCM Naruto failing to tag Tobi while using 1 KCM clone and no speed means he will fail to tag Tobi using multiple KCM clones, base clones, sage clones, and ei-level/flash shunshin speed?  Obviously not.

Naruto didn't even use his ei-level speed, tajuu kagebunshin no jutsu or even lethal rasengans when facing Tobi, and since it was a 4 vs 1 situation in addition to having kakashi's kamui as a viable alternative to spamming clones and doing everything by himself, that is the technique they used.  




Kai said:


> A BM clone flashblitzing Tobito while another clone fights him? Naruto hasn't shown anything in his fight with Tobi that proves he can do any of your ridiculous propositions, let alone *solo* against him to which he already lost.


Of course he hasn't shown that because he didn't need to, he had 3 other teamates, one of which had a more efficient counter to Tobi's Kamui.  

Has obito or anyone else in the manga ever reacted to a flash shunshin by naruto?  No.
Even if Obito can react, it's irrelevant since he has to become tangible in order to do any kind of offense.  We've already seen that Obito can't react to BM Naruto's fast movement speed despite Naruto being right in front of Obito.  If he can't even do that, how is he going to react to a flash shunshin when he is occupied with hitting fodder clones or clones with SM reactions?

Your entire argument is basically "Naruto didn't do this in the manga, so he doesn't do it here" which is not only in itself fallacious reasoning in the battledome which leads to ridiculous results, but it also would not apply here since:

1) he is actually trying to kill Tobi here and not de-mask him
2) he is in a 1 vs 1 situation against Tobi, doesn't have kakashi so he has to rely on bunshin feints
3) location is madara vs kages, not a location with tons of moving rocks getting in the way that would aid obito

So no, unless you can show how the feats that I attribute to Naruto are false or stack up against Obito's arsenal and moveset in a false way, then it does not follow that Naruto can't or won't do that especially if they are the most obvious counters to Obito's moveset and if the conditions of this battle are very different from what happened in the manga.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

BM Naruto should win more likely than not. He can overpower both the Biju and the Gedo Mazo on his own. Fighting Obito one on one will be a bit trickier, but Naruto has the speed that should surpass his Kamui warping. Naruto should be most likely able to replicate Minato's feat of timing when Obito becomes solid again by tossing a Kunai, and then using his speed to flash to the kunai after he's sure Obito's solid and smash a Rasenshuriken or Cho Mini-Bijudama into his back.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> -snip-
> 
> it is ridiculous that we've already seen how naruto would fare one on one against obito, yet people claim adamantly naruto can solo while in canon he needed the help of 2 fighters like gai and kakashi. kakashi who is basically and hard-counter to obito as they share the same jutsu kamui


Naruto wasn't at full power against Obito, wasn't bloodlusted, and didn't use the speed that is equal to the Hiraishin to counter Kamui.

Its not wank, its just you hate the Naruto character.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

-snip-

Merely stating "in the manga it was Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai who beat obito" in no way means that that is what happens in this thread, and I have given a feat-wise argument for how Naruto's canonical powers stack up against Obito and how they would allow him the victory, and the conditions of this thread are far different from what they were in the manga.  Going by your logic that "the raw outcomes in the manga tell us the powerlevels of people"  a SM Naruto clone > Sandaime raikage, Lee > Edo Madara, Sai and Kankuro > Sasori and Deidara, and Darui > Kin.  

If you were so "compelled to post after seeing.... ueharakk's posts" then why didn't you quote my post and show what was wrong with the logic and reasoning I used in order to reach those conclusions?

-snip-



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> and please don't start with the "wasn't at full health" bullshit. any side can make excuses as petty as that. the fact that he *wasn't bloodlusted changes jack shit as he still has no way of hard countering obito's intangibility like minato did or kakaashi could(albeit with help);* if anything the bloodlusted state of mind makes him less rational and by extension less competent( i mean this is the same naruto who was attempting to rasengan a guy he was aware of the fact that he could peacefully absorb it)


The bolded is merely a baseless assertion on your part backed by no evidence while i have given an argument heavily supported by the manga for why Naruto would be able to hit Obito with clone feints and his super speed.  In addition to that, no one is saying Naruto is bloodlusted.  However in this thread, he is going for the kill, unlike in manga canon where he merely wanted to rip obito's mask off.



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> *also let's be honest, when you have the nine tail fox inside you, it is lame to say "he wasn't at full health"* when we all know how ridiculous is the boost the fox gives as far as chakra goes( just look at what hinata managed to do, or lee, kakashi, and so on). just stop if you want to go there


whether you think it's lame to say he wasn't at full health is irrelevant if we can give reasons and evidence that compellingly prove that he wasn't close to full power.  Even the most opposed posters would recognize that Kurama's chakra is not in fact infinite and Naruto has run into chakra problems and limitations many times throughout the war.

The boost that others get from the kyuubi chakra cloak is irrelevant to the amount of chakra and thus battle capacity KCM Naruto has at the moment.



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> lastly just as the rest of yours and ueharakk's arguments, it is fanfic to think that movement speed such as naruto's is equal as instant teleportation like minato's(which by default bypasses the limitations of movement, in other words says fuck you to physics) and is "faster"


sure Minato's speed is faster and no one is saying that Naruto is as fast as Minato's FTG, however in short distances no one as of yet has been able to react to KCM let alone BM Naruto's shunshin, and both have been compared to Minato's teleportation. 

Thus if you want to refute the argument that Naruto's flash shunshin whether in KCM or in BM will be able to hit obito during the window that he is tangible, you would have to give some kind of argument for that.

-snip-


----------



## richard lewis (Apr 8, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> the naruto wank is as usual off the charts
> 
> it is ridiculous that we've already seen how naruto would fare one on one against obito, yet people claim adamantly naruto can solo while in canon he needed the help of 2 fighters like gai and kakashi. kakashi who is basically an hard-counter to obito as they share the same jutsu kamui
> 
> ...



I seem to recall naruto having to save kakashi and gai more times than they saved naruto. And please post a scan of when obito had naruto in a threatening situation, naruto has had the advantage until madara showed up.


----------



## Riley F. (Apr 8, 2013)

Naruto doesn't have the abilities needed to singlehandedly overcome a Kamui master like Obito. Assuming the latter still has the Gunbai, Naruto's KM clones won't prove to be an issue as they can, quite easily, be destroyed (as they were in canon). BM Naruto can press Obito but it's not enough without Kakashi's power. He won't be able to land that all important finishing blow, whilst Obito will have no problems outlasting Naruto's BM usage.


----------



## Ezekial (Apr 8, 2013)

-snip- Obito has already kicked Naruto's ass in BM mode they've been fighting since 570 and Naruto has been saved so many times, if Naruto was alone he'd already be dead.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> -snip- Obito has already kicked Naruto's ass in BM mode they've been fighting since 570 and Naruto has been saved so many times, if Naruto was alone he'd already be dead.


Show me where Obito kicked Naruto's ass while he was in Biju Mode. Come on, show me the scan.

Oh, and thanks for the flame.



Riley F. said:


> Naruto doesn't have the abilities needed to singlehandedly overcome a Kamui master like Obito. Assuming the latter still has the Gunbai, Naruto's KM clones won't prove to be an issue as they can, quite easily, be destroyed (as they were in canon). BM Naruto can press Obito but it's not enough without Kakashi's power. He won't be able to land that all important finishing blow, whilst Obito will have no problems outlasting Naruto's BM usage.


...again, before even having Biju Mode, Naruto's speed was directly compared to Hiraishin. Which is fast enough to land a blow on Obito when he exit's Kamui. There is absolutely no reason why Naruto can't replicate his father's feat.

And Obito was destroying NTCM Clones with barely any chakra to fight with since they were just a distraction if you recall.


----------



## blk (Apr 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto wasn't at full power against Obito, wasn't bloodlusted, and didn't use the speed that is equal to the Hiraishin to counter Kamui.
> 
> Its not wank, its just you hate the Naruto character.



Against the Bijuu and in the chapter where they broke Obito's mask, Naruto was at full power.
However, as we saw in the latter, the BM didn't change anything: Naruto couldn't even hope to touch Obito without his allies (especially Kakashi).

Naruto's Shunshin is not even close to Hiraishin.

All Obito needs to do in this fight is basically wait for the BM to finish; it's highly unlikely that Naruto can win.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

blk said:


> Against the Bijuu and in the chapter where they broke Obito's mask, Naruto was at full power.
> However, as we saw in the latter, the BM didn't change anything: Naruto couldn't even hope to touch Obito without his allies (especially Kakashi).


Naruto at full power means he can last in his NTCM for a day and a night instead of just a few minutes. Even Biju Mode lasts just a few minutes. 



> Naruto's Shunshin is not even close to Hiraishin.


...despite the manga showing it was.


> All Obito needs to do in this fight is basically wait for the BM to finish; it's highly unlikely that Naruto can win.


Despite Naruto having the tools to defeat Obito huh?


----------



## blk (Apr 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto at full power means he can last in his NTCM for a day and a night instead of just a few minutes. Even Biju Mode lasts just a few minutes.



The second time that Naruto used the BM, he was at full power.
Infact, we know that Kurama can recharge his chakra pretty fastly (which is the reason for why he could reactivate the BM).

It's just that the BM consumes a lot of it, and therefore do not last more than several minutes.



> ...despite the manga showing it was.



Where? The fact that he could cause a "yellow flash" with his Shunshin, doesn't make it instant.
Hirashin is literally instant, as long as Naruto relies on speed, he will never come close to being truly instant.



> Despite Naruto having the tools to defeat Obito huh?



What tools does Naruto have for overcome the intangibility?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

blk said:


> The second time that Naruto used the BM, he was at full power.
> Infact, we know that Kurama can recharge his chakra pretty fastly.
> 
> It's just that the BM consumes a lot of it, and therefore do not last more than several minutes.


Biju Mode is limited via a time limit since the bond between them isn't completed yet. Its not due to the chakra consumption. Kurama clearly explained that the limit is due to the weakness of the bond since its new.

A full power Naruto can last nearly _two days of active NTCM usage_ before becoming exhausted. Instead of the few minutes he displayed.


> Where? The fact that he could cause a "yellow flash" with his Shunshin, doesn't make it instant.
> Hirashin is literally instant, therefore as long as Naruto relies on speed, he will never come close to being truly instant.


Said Yellow Flash is when Hiraishin is used, its what gave Minato his moniker. Naruto was directly compared to his father's Hiraishin with his speed, and even surpassed A's speed the very same way with the very same moniker.




> What tools does Naruto have for overcome the intangibility?


Sheer speed, superior firepower, evil sensing, chakra sensing, etc.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

just wanted to add that it seems like the BM time limit only applies to Naruto when he's in his full Kurama avatar form, not when he is in his human form.

The first time he uses it (5 min) he goes right into Kyuubi avatar and it runs out in 2 chapters.

The second time he uses it (8 min) it lasts for over 12 chapters, but when he enters his Kyuubi avatar state, it runs out in 3.

Naruto is not going to be fighting Obito while in full Kurama avatar form so his mode should not run out any time soon.


----------



## blk (Apr 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Biju Mode is limited via a time limit since the bond between them isn't completed yet. Its not due to the chakra consumption. Kurama clearly explained that the limit is due to the weakness of the bond since its new.
> 
> A full power Naruto can last nearly _two days of active NTCM usage_ before becoming exhausted. Instead of the few minutes he displayed.



If the RM consumes Kurama's chakra (as it was explained) then even the BM does (and likely in greater quantities).
The imperfection of the bond rendered the time limit smaller.

Naruto has to choose: or he uses the RM, which can last for almost 2 days, or the BM, which can last for several minutes.
But whatever he chooses, the situation doesn't change much.



> Said Yellow Flash is when Hiraishin is used, its what gave Minato his moniker. Naruto was directly compared to his father's Hiraishin with his speed, and even surpassed A's speed the very same way with the very same moniker.



Minato never causes a yellow flash when he uses the Hirashin.

But regardless, my stance remains valid: Naruto relies on speed, therefore he can't be instant.



> Sheer speed, superior firepower, evil sensing, chakra sensing, etc.



None of this can do anything to the intangibility.




ueharakk said:


> just wanted to add that it seems like the BM time limit only applies to Naruto when he's in his full Kurama avatar form, not when he is in his human form.
> 
> The first time he uses it (5 min) he goes right into Kyuubi avatar and it runs out in 2 chapters.
> 
> ...



I don't see any evidence for this assertion.
The numbers of the chapters mean nothing.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

blk said:


> I don't see any evidence for this assertion.
> The numbers of the chapters mean nothing.



I have given you explicit evidence for that assertion, and merely saying "i don't see any evidence for it" would be ignoring my argument.

Stating "the numbers of the chapters means nothing" would be the assertion with no evidence as you have not posted any evidence that the numbers of the chapters means nothing.

I agree that strictly equating chapters to time as in saying the amount of time that passed in 1 chapter is the exact same amount of time that has passed in another chapter would be fallacious, however both uses of BM take place while in a fight, and a difference of 12+ chapters vs 2 is not explained by merely saying "you can't 100% quantify the amount of time that goes by within one chapter versus another".


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

blk said:


> If the RM consumes Kurama's chakra (as it was explained) then even the BM does (and likely in greater quantities).
> The imperfection of the bond rendered the time limit smaller.
> 
> Naruto has to choose: or he uses the RM, which can last for almost 2 days, or the BM, which can last for several minutes.
> But whatever he chooses, the situation doesn't change much.


Nine-Tailed Chakra Mode's chakra reserve is completely separated from Kurama's, in another part of his seal.

The bond's imperfection means why Biju Mode is limited from 5 (first use) to 8 minutes (second use).


> Minato never causes a yellow flash when he uses the Hirashin.


Its why he got the title of Yellow Flash. Hiraishin's use causes a yellow flash for everyone watching.


> But regardless, my stance remains valid: Naruto relies on speed, therefore he can't be instant.


Technically, Hiraishin IS speed. Its classified as a speed technique in the databook, not a teleportation technique like Kuchiyoise. And Minato's high reactions is what makes Hiraishin so fast.

Naruto has reactions that are just as high and speed equal to that of the Hiraishin's displayed. 


> None of this can do anything to the intangibility.


Toss a kunai while charging at Obito, watch it phase through and just as Obito is about to attack, flash to the kunai via speed and smash a Rasenshuriken down while Obito is still tangible isn't a valid strategy?

Or hell, have him toss a clone into Obito's dimension to keep him from phasing, that works too.


----------



## Ezekial (Apr 8, 2013)

-snip-



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Show me where Obito kicked Naruto's ass while he was in Biju Mode. Come on, show me the scan..


 Naruto used up BM and done nothing he reached his limit and would of died multiple times, -snip-, -snip-Naruto is only alive because of his support.


----------



## blk (Apr 8, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nine-Tailed Chakra Mode's chakra reserve is completely separated from Kurama's, in another part of his seal.
> 
> The bond's imperfection means why Biju Mode is limited from 5 (first use) to 8 minutes (second use).



Link a scan where it is said that the RM chakra is in another part of the seal.

But more importantly, does it matter? RM, BM, SM or whatever, Naruto won't touch Obito in any case and will eventually be outlasted.



> Its why he got the title of Yellow Flash. Hiraishin's use causes a yellow flash for everyone watching.
> 
> Technically, Hiraishin IS speed. Its classified as a speed technique in the databook, not a teleportation technique like Kuchiyoise. And Minato's high reactions is what makes Hiraishin so fast.



Link a scan where Minato causes a yellow flash with Hirashin.

Hirashin is an S/T jutsu, it doesn't involve speed; the manga is primary source, if it contradicts the databook (as happened different time), than the latter becomes invalid.

Minato's reactions render him able to activate Hirashin vary fastly, but these have nothing to do with Hirashin itself.



> Toss a kunai while charging at Obito, watch it phase through and just as Obito is about to attack, flash to the kunai via speed and smash a Rasenshuriken down while Obito is still tangible isn't a valid strategy?
> 
> Or hell, have him toss a clone into Obito's dimension to keep him from phasing, that works too.



What Minato did was possible thanks to Hirashin (which requires only the thought for be activated and is instant, unlike the Shunshin).

With knowledge, Obito won't risk to warp a clone.




ueharakk said:


> I have given you explicit evidence for that assertion, and merely saying "i don't see any evidence for it" would be ignoring my argument.
> 
> Stating "the numbers of the chapters means nothing" would be the assertion with no evidence as you have not posted any evidence that the numbers of the chapters means nothing.
> 
> I agree that strictly equating chapters to time as in saying the amount of time that passed in 1 chapter is the exact same amount of time that has passed in another chapter would be fallacious, however both uses of BM take place while in a fight, and a difference of 12+ chapters vs 2 is not explained by merely saying "you can't 100% quantify the amount of time that goes by within one chapter versus another".



1) We don't know how much actual time passes in a chapter.

2) A shorter duration of the BM might be dependant on other factors, such as the quantity/quality of jutsu used and how much chakra they waste.

3) There was Obito's flashback in the middle of these 12 chapters (which was like 6 or 7 chapters, if i remember correctly).


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> Oh be quiet, go cry to Dragonus again.


...I've already reported you dude.


> Naruto used up BM and done nothing he reached his limit and would of died multiple times, stop being such a fanboy, you're embarrassing yourself, Naruto is only alive because of his support.


And when Naruto was in Biju Mode, he was the one who worked with Kakashi to send a clone into Obito's dimension and attack him that way.

There is absolutely no reason why Naruto, who has his father's speed, shouldn't be able to land a blow on Obito.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 8, 2013)

blk said:


> 1) We don't know how much actual time passes in a chapter.


I've given you positive evidence that the time passed between each chapters are comparable as both take place in the middle of a battle, you can even count the number of events, conversations and actions that occur from the start till the end and the second time has multiple times the amount of the first use.

Now what evidence do you have that in actuality much less time passed in between those chapters?  Saying I have a burden of proof to prove 100% or quantify the exact amount of time that takes place in each chapter is a double standard if you don't assess your own arguments with that same standard.



blk said:


> 2) A shorter duration of the BM might be dependant on other factors, such as the quantity/quality of jutsu used and how much chakra they waste.


Um.... Naruto used multiple BM clones, rapidfire TBB, his MAX bijuudama, a large bijuudama, got his entire cloak absorbed by the mokuryu, chou mini bijuudama, wrestled with mokuryu in addition to using double flash shunshins against Obito and Madara.

Compare that to what BM Naruto used against the jinchuriki: 1 flash shunshin, 1 super bijuudama, a chakra roar, and physical moves against the bijuu.

The argument about chakra used and jutsu used HEAVILY supports my argument.



blk said:


> 3) There was Obito's flashback in the middle of these 12 chapters (which was like 6 or 7 chapters, if i remember correctly).


Yeah, and as the flashback was progressing, time passed in the real world as well since bee was defeated, Gai was bleeding from his eyes, and mokuton littered the battlefield.  

So we not only get more chapters, but also a timeskip to make up for the flashback as well.  

And you still haven't given a single positive evidence to support your own argument.  

1) For the first point, if we don't know how much time passed, then what compels you to say that a very short amount of time passed compared to the first BM useage chapters?
2) For the jutsu and chakra usage argument, you make no attempt to positively support your argument.
3) If Obito had a flashback that took up a good amount of chapters, show how the chapters in the flashback would have been slowed in time versus the real ones.

Basically your argument is just saying bringing up points that show my argument doesn't 100% prove its conclusion, while not bringing up positive evidence for your own.  If there is a jar full of 90 red beans and 10 blue beans, do we say that since I can't prove with 100% certainty that I will pick a red bean, then the most logical conclusion is that I will pick a blue bean?  It's the same in this or any other argument concerning a subjective manga with limited feats and showings: where does the majority of the evidence lie and where does it point, not "accept what you want to accept only unless it is 100% disproven regardless of how much evidence points against it."


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2013)

blk said:


> Link a scan where it is said that the RM chakra is in another part of the seal.


Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.


> But more importantly, does it matter? RM, BM, SM or whatever, Naruto won't touch Obito in any case and will eventually be outlasted.


Naruto has two means of touching Obito via Nine-Tailed Chakra Mode and Biju Mode.

Obito was fighting an already exhausted Naruto, that's the point I was making.


> Link a scan where Minato causes a yellow flash with Hirashin.


Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.
Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.
Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.
Immediately recognized as Yellow Flash after its used.



> Hiraishin no Jutsu
> 
> User(s): Yondaime Hokage
> Rank: S
> ...





> Hirashin is an S/T jutsu, it doesn't involve speed; the manga is primary source, if it contradicts the databook (as happened different time), than the latter becomes invalid.


Except when the manga has Naruto been called a Yellow Flash in comparison to Minato, movement speed that Naruto has is on that level.


> Minato's reactions render him able to activate Hirashin vary fastly, but these have nothing to do with Hirashin itself.


If his reactions weren't up to par, Hiraishin would be useless.




> What Minato did was possible thanks to Hirashin (which requires only the thought for be activated and is instant, unlike the Shunshin).


No, Minato timed it for when Kamui ended, he'd warp to his kunai and smash the Rasengan down on Obito's back when he's completely vulnerable. 

In essence, the kunai is a feint which Minato used to time to the microsecond where Obito was solid.

First time he uses his speed he's compared to his father's Yellow Flash directly right here
A directly compares Naruto's speed right here.
Naruto's speed directly compared to Minato here by Kakashi himself.



> With knowledge, Obito won't risk to warp a clone.


He can be forced to warp a clone if Naruto requires it, especially since he has no way of distinguishing a clone from the real thing.


----------



## Arles Celes (Apr 8, 2013)

OP made Naruto too overpowered.

However, if Obito understood that his only chance was to wait till Naruto runs out of super mode and focuses strictly on defense then who knows.

If Naruto does not know about Obito's 5 minutes limit and sees that Obito has no intention of exposing himself to a counterattack then he may find such a situation extremely troublesome. He has no way of knowing when Obito is recharging his 5 minutes intangibility either.

If Obito does not realize how broken his opponent is and tries to attack him even once while Super Naruto and the rest of his KB army are still active then he is in serious trouble.


----------



## blk (Apr 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.



This doesn't say that the RM chakra has a separate source from Kurama.



> Obito was fighting an already exhausted Naruto, that's the point I was making.



The reason for why Naruto was able to use the BM a second and a third time was because Kurama recharged his chakra: therefore he wasn't exhausted.



> Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.
> Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.
> Naruto: The Nine-Tails Chakra is sectioned off within me in a separate place, meaning I'm not automatically using it all the time.
> Immediately recognized as Yellow Flash after its used.



I don't see any yellow flash when Minato uses Hirashin.

That Jonin didn't seemed sure that his enemy was Minato.




> Except when the manga has Naruto been called a Yellow Flash in comparison to Minato, movement speed that Naruto has is on that level.
> 
> First time he uses his speed he's compared to his father's Yellow Flash directly right here
> A directly compares Naruto's speed right here.
> Naruto's speed directly compared to Minato here by Kakashi himself.



Again, Hirashin is a S/T jutsu, it is stated clearly through the manga.

They compare Naruto to Minato because:

1) He is his son and quite similar even physically.

2) His Shunshin is very impressive and create a yellow flash when used.

However, the fact that it creates a yellow flash doesn't make it instant and even by feats it pales compared to Hirashin.
Infact, the former, so far, was only used for fast movements for travel a relative short distance and seems to require more time than Hirashin for being activated, while the latter was used for instantly teleport the user even in places far away from each other and is activated just via a thought.





> No, Minato timed it for when Kamui ended, he'd warp to his kunai and smash the Rasengan down on Obito's back when he's completely vulnerable.
> 
> In essence, the kunai is a feint which Minato used to time to the microsecond where Obito was solid.



I don't know how this address what i said and happened in the manga; Minato was able to do it because of Hirashin, the same scans that you linked clarify this.

Naruto cannot replicate this because he doesn't have Hirashin, and because Obito has knowledge.

Further, it is shown in the manga that Naruto couldn't touch Obito without Kakashi and his other allies.



> He can be forced to warp a clone if Naruto requires it, especially since he has no way of distinguishing a clone from the real thing.



With knowledge, Obito knows that he just needs to wait in order to basically win the fight; he won't use his warping, with all the risks that it involves, when he doesn't need it.





ueharakk said:


> I've given you positive evidence that the time passed between each chapters are comparable as both take place in the middle of a battle, you can even count the number of events, conversations and actions that occur from the start till the end and the second time has multiple times the amount of the first use.



Events and conversations lasts an unknow amount of time, there is no way to generalize it (an example is Kakashi, that when Obito kicked the kunai with Raiton to Naruto, Kakashi spout an entire sentece while the kunai almost remained at the same mid-air position).



> Um.... Naruto used multiple BM clones, rapidfire TBB, his MAX bijuudama, a large bijuudama, got his entire cloak absorbed by the mokuryu, chou mini bijuudama, wrestled with mokuryu in addition to using double flash shunshins against Obito and Madara.
> 
> Compare that to what BM Naruto used against the jinchuriki: 1 flash shunshin, 1 super bijuudama, a chakra roar, and physical moves against the bijuu.
> 
> The argument about chakra used and jutsu used HEAVILY supports my argument.



There is also to add the 2 days where he constantly used the RM and divided his chakra in 13 parts with each using several jutsu.




> Yeah, and as the flashback was progressing, time passed in the real world as well since bee was defeated, Gai was bleeding from his eyes, and mokuton littered the battlefield.
> 
> So we not only get more chapters, but also a timeskip to make up for the flashback as well.



I don't remeber much Mokuton in the field.
However, for all we know it could have been one minute or even less; no way to determine it.



> And you still haven't given a single positive evidence to support your own argument.



I'm questioning your claim, not making one.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2013)

blk said:


> Events and conversations lasts an unknow amount of time, there is no way to generalize it (an example is Kakashi, that when Obito kicked the kunai with Raiton to Naruto, Kakashi spout an entire sentece while the kunai almost remained at the same mid-air position).


sure, we can't EXACTLY quantify the amount of time each chapter takes up, and I my post does not try to do that.  However, the second time he enters BM, we get vastly more events and chapters that take place before the mode runs out.  Therefore that more than makes up for differences in time of events.  When BM Naruto first enters the mode, he also has conversations that take up panels and pages.

And once again, you are simply using the extreme skeptic card which is "prove it to a 100% certainty or it is false" while not burdening your own arguments with the same.




blk said:


> There is also to add the 2 days where he constantly used the RM and divided his chakra in 13 parts with each using several jutsu.


How is the KCM chakra Naruto used throughout the war before he used BM relevant when we are comparing known times that Naruto was in BM?






blk said:


> I don't remeber much Mokuton in the field.
> However, for all we know it could have been one minute or even less; no way to determine it.


Once again, playing the extreme skeptic card in order to put a massive burden of proof on the opposition to 100% prove and quantify time else the argument isn't valid.  

Does Gai profusely bleeding and Bee being already defeated compel you to think that merely a minute passed by in the manga?  Especially when the gokage survived against Madara for hours?   Obviously not.  
In addition to that there's still the author intention logic that a relatively equal amount of time passed in the real world compared to the other chapters per chapter was spent in the flashback.




blk said:


> I'm questioning your claim, not making one.


well if all you can do is merely question my claims and you are unable to erect a positive argument of your own, then it's basically concessionary as there really is only 1 argument to be made.  

With enough motivation, anyone can sit on the side and play the super skeptic card and demand an completely unfair burden of proof on someone else's arguments, and thus throw away any assertion they feel is unfavorable to their own agenda by saying "we just don't know" no matter how compelling the evidence for that assertion is.

If there is evidence on only one side of the table, no matter how compelling or not while there is no evidence for the other side, then obviously the side that is supported is the best choice that we have to go with.  

And thus, since there is no counterarguments for the arguments I've given that show BM NAruto's time limit only applies to his full kyuubi avatar form, it follows that my argument is in fact the best possible choice we have with the information we are given at this time, and thus it would be the accepted one.


----------



## Panther (Apr 9, 2013)

blk said:


> When Naruto lost the BM the second time that he used it (he could because Kurama can recharge his chakra very fastly), he returned to base.


 That's because Naruto already spent most of his KCM reserves that he stored on a seperate place from Kurama by making 13RM clones and helping the alliance, by the time he faced Tobi he was low on KCM chakra and kept switching to base mode troughout the fight, and in this match Naruto didn't spent his KCM chakra reserves so he still has them + i doubt that Kurama could have given him some chakra to enter RM when he's already concentrating on gathering chakra for BM so that leaves Naruto in base.



richard lewis said:


> I dont really see how spamming clones is gunna help against obito, naruto never once landed a blow on obito w/o kakashi's help. I think it is going to much more difficult than you think, im 50/50 on this.


 Naruto by spamming KCM clones would confuse Tobi since he can't distinguish the real Naruto from the clones, if Tobi makes the mistake and becomes tangible to warp on of the clones he risks of getting blindsided by 13 RM clones which all have v1 Raikage speed and can attack him with multiple chakra-arms guided FRS or Mini-TBB and the real Naruto could blitz him since no one has shown reaction feats to react at Naruto's shunshin, then there is the possibility that Naruto could let Tobi warp one of his KCM clones which would pretty much end the fight since the warped clone can kill Tobi with a FRS or Mini-TBB from the other dimension if Tobi becomes intangible.


----------



## blk (Apr 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> sure, we can't EXACTLY quantify the amount of time each chapter takes up, and I my post does not try to do that.  However, the second time he enters BM, we get vastly more events and chapters that take place before the mode runs out.  Therefore that more than makes up for differences in time of events.  When BM Naruto first enters the mode, he also has conversations that take up panels and pages.



Vastly more events? They are not that much more.

But then again, as long as we can't quantify the time that these involve, the point remains moot.




> How is the KCM chakra Naruto used throughout the war before he used BM relevant when we are comparing known times that Naruto was in BM?



It is Kurama's chakra, if Naruto didn't used it he would have had more chakra at his disposal in BM.




> Does Gai profusely bleeding and Bee being already defeated compel you to think that merely a minute passed by in the manga?  Especially when the gokage survived against Madara for hours?   Obviously not.
> In addition to that there's still the author intention logic that a relatively equal amount of time passed in the real world compared to the other chapters per chapter was spent in the flashback.



Bee wasn't defeated, and several seconds are more than enough for injure someone and make him bleed.



> well if all you can do is merely question my claims and you are unable to erect a positive argument of your own, then it's basically concessionary as there really is only 1 argument to be made.
> 
> With enough motivation, anyone can sit on the side and play the super skeptic card and demand an completely unfair burden of proof on someone else's arguments, and thus throw away any assertion they feel is unfavorable to their own agenda by saying "we just don't know" no matter how compelling the evidence for that assertion is.



There is nothing unfair, you just have no evidences for your argument without using assumptions:

1) You assume that all the events and conversations that happened during those chapters did take a similar amount of time.

2) You assume that the flashback lasted an amount of time that is favourable for your thesis.

There are no reasons for why i have to accept these premises, and therefore your evidences.





Panther said:


> That's because Naruto already spent most of his KCM reserves that he stored on a seperate place from Kurama by making 13RM clones and helping the alliance, by the time he faced Tobi he was low on KCM chakra and kept switching to base mode troughout the fight, and in this match Naruto didn't spent his KCM chakra reserves so he still has them + i doubt that Kurama could have given him some chakra to enter RM when he's already concentrating on gathering chakra for BM so that leaves Naruto in base.



It is still Kurama's chakra, it doesn't come from nothing.
The fact that Naruto was able to use the RM without problems once that Kurama decided to help him, proves this.

We know that for make Naruto able to utilize the BM again, Kurama recharged his chakra: thus the "RM chakra" was recharged as well since it is, infact, Kurama's.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2013)

blk said:


> Vastly more events? They are not that much more.
> 
> But then again, as long as we can't quantify the time that these involve, the point remains moot.


it in no way remains moot as a time period that has more unquantifiable events than another time period has a higher probability of being a longer time period.

Having more events is positive evidence even if they are unquantifiable, yet I even went out and tried to quantify them by showing how both events had conversations that can cancel each other out.




blk said:


> It is Kurama's chakra, if Naruto didn't used it he would have had more chakra at his disposal in BM.


no crap, but what does that have to do with the argument of our thread which is comparing the time naruto used BM the second time to the first time?





blk said:


> Bee wasn't defeated, and several seconds are more than enough for injure someone and make him bleed.


Concession accepted on this point as you completely ignore that the timeframe argument and the chapter equivalnecy argument.  How plausible is it that Bee and Gai were defeated in less than or even several minutes when it took Madara hours to defeat the gokage without PS?




blk said:


> There is nothing unfair, you just have no evidences for your argument without using assumptions:
> 
> 1) You assume that all the events and conversations that happened during those chapters did take a similar amount of time.
> 
> ...


Once again blk, I will hold your hand through basic logic of evaluating a manga with limited feats, showings and information.  
When evaluating a manga with limited feats, showings and information, almost EVERY argument we formulate is based on unprovable assumptions.  However, in order to find the BEST argument or most well supported we look at what assumptions BOTH sides of the table have to offer.

What is the alternative to assumption number 1?  The alternative is that "the events and conversations that happened during those chapters for some reasoned considerably varied" despite nothing indicating so.

What's the alternative to assumption number 2?  The alternative is that "for some reason, the amount of time that went by during a chapter in the flashback was considerably shorter than the amount of time that goes by in a typical chapter and both Gai and Bee were defeated in less than 5 minutes despite fighting a non-PS Madara alongside BM Naruto while the gokage survived against that same madara for hours "

It's clear as day to anyone who's looking at this thread honestly and objectively that your reasoning is blatantly fallacious, and would allow you to render any and all arguments that do not 100% prove themselves to be true to in fact be false or thrown out, no matter how compelling the evidence for them or no matter how ridiculous the assumptions that have to be made for the argument to NOT be true.


blk, try this.  Use your exact method of inference on the problem of how many jelly beans are in a jar:

If there is a jar that contains 90 red jelly beans and 10 blue jelly beans what color jelly bean would you probably get if you picked one at random?

Using the same method of evaluation, you would say that just because there are more red jelly beans does not necessarily mean you will pick a red jelly bean, thus its an assumption to say that you would pick a red jelly bean.  Yet, which assumption is the more probable of the two?  Which is the one more supported by the evidence?   The red jelly bean assumption of course!

It's the exact same thing in this manga, almost everything is based off of unprovable assumptions, however just because an assumption is not provable does not mean that the argument is false, you have to weigh that assumption with the alternative of that assumption and see which is more plausible.

Of course there is the final option: that all assumptions or arguments that are not provable to a 100% certainty garner the "we don't know" answer.  However, if you are going to pedal to this conclusion, then you have to do it for EVERY argument you or other people make that are based on unprovable assumptions, no matter how compelling the evidence for one side is.


----------



## blk (Apr 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> it in no way remains moot as a time period that has more unquantifiable events than another time period has a higher probability of being a longer time period.
> 
> Having more events is positive evidence even if they are unquantifiable, yet I even went out and tried to quantify them by showing how both events had conversations that can cancel each other out.



It doesn't have an higher probability of being a longer period of time.
You can't determine the probability without being able to at least quantify the time roughly.



> Concession accepted on this point as you completely ignore that the timeframe argument and the chapter equivalnecy argument.  How plausible is it that Bee and Gai were defeated in less than or even several minutes when it took Madara hours to defeat the gokage without PS?



Bee wasn't defeated, and as far as we now Gai may have been caught in a random explosion of the exchange between Madara and Naruto.

How can you compare an almost exhausted Gai to the Gokage? And as shown different times, any of the Kage alone would have been defeated in a very short time even against a non-serious Madara.



> Once again blk, I will hold your hand through basic logic of evaluating a manga with limited feats, showings and information.
> When evaluating a manga with limited feats, showings and information, almost EVERY argument we formulate is based on unprovable assumptions.  However, in order to find the BEST argument or most well supported we look at what assumptions BOTH sides of the table have to offer.
> 
> What is the alternative to assumption number 1?  The alternative is that "the events and conversations that happened during those chapters for some reasoned considerably varied" despite nothing indicating so.
> ...



Your assumptions do not have an higher probability of being right than the alternative, therefore the analogy doesn't work.

As i already said, the flashback could have lasted less than a minute or more than five; either are equally possible.


----------



## Panther (Apr 9, 2013)

blk said:


> It is still Kurama's chakra, it doesn't come from nothing.
> The fact that *Naruto was able to use the RM without problems once that Kurama decided to help him*, proves this.


 Have to disagree with the bolded. if that were the case then Naruto would have re-entered KCM once BM limit was over, instead Naruto is in base mode and we see after 19 chapters that Naruto is still in Base mode fighting against Tobi and Gedou.

It's only after 21 chapters that he enters KCM again, and after 1 rasengan he loses KCM 



> We know that for make Naruto able to utilize the BM again, Kurama recharged his chakra: thus the "RM chakra" was recharged as well since it is, infact, Kurama's.


 The chakra is from Kurama but it belongs to Naruto now, for the rest of his life and Kurama can't reach to Naruto's KCM reserves since it's on an entirely different place where only Naruto has acces to, and if the Kyuubi chakra that Naruto pulled out of Kurama belongs to him for life and is on an entire different place where Kurama has no control over then it's safe to assume that the chakra would regenerate on it's own since it would make no sense if it didn't regenerate and was only a 1time use.


----------



## blk (Apr 9, 2013)

Panther said:


> Have to disagree with the bolded. if that were the case then Naruto would have re-entered KCM once BM limit was over, instead Naruto is in base mode and we see after 19 chapters that Naruto is still in Base mode fighting against Tobi and Gedou.
> 
> It's only after 21 chapters that he enters KCM again, and after 1 rasengan he loses KCM



No, he wouldn't re-enter in RM because the BM would have consumed all of Kurama's chakra.

Naruto could use the RM again before the awakening of the BM [1].
Kurama gave to Naruto the needed chakra for reactivate the RM, hence it does come from him.



> The chakra is from Kurama but it belongs to Naruto now, for the rest of his life and Kurama can't reach to Naruto's KCM reserves since it's on an entirely different place where only Naruto has acces to, and if the Kyuubi chakra that Naruto pulled out of Kurama belongs to him for life and is on an entire different place where Kurama has no control over then it's safe to assume that the chakra would regenerate on it's own since it would make no sense if it didn't regenerate and was only a 1time use.



It is in a different place, but it is still coming from Kurama [2 ; 3].
Note these phrases: "if you're constantly using the _fox's chakra_..", "you'd negotiate with the beast as to how much chakra _you'd both give_..", "there is a limit to the chakra you manage to _pull away from him_...".

The RM chakra still comes from Kurama, and Naruto has to give his own in order to use it.


----------



## Panther (Apr 9, 2013)

blk said:


> No, *he wouldn't re-enter in RM because the BM would have consumed all of Kurama's chakra*.
> 
> That's exactly what i'm arguing, the RM and the BM both uses Kurama's chakra.


Do you have proof of the bolded ? Because no where is it stated that BM uses Naruto's stored KCM chakra. BM only used the melded chakra of both Naruto and Kurama.

No, it's not that he wouldn't re-enter KCM because BM consumed his KCM reserves, but it's because he spent a full day and night in KCM had a skirmish with A and made 13RM clones which spammed FRS and rasengan's left and right to help the alliance against the zetsu army and edo's.



> It is in a different place, but it is still coming from Kurama [1 ; 2].
> Note these phrases: "if you're constantly using the _fox's chakra_..", "you'd negotiate with the beast as to how much chakra _you'd both give_..",
> The RM chakra still comes from Kurama, and Naruto has to give his own in order to use it.


 It ''came'' from Kurama since now it belongs to Naruto, and the only reason why Kurama has acces to Naruto's chakra is because Naruto is shelving his chakra to use the stolen chakra of Kurama, but that doesn't really matter anymore because Naruto can freely use Kurama's stolen chakra without worying about Kurama draining his chakra when he's shelving it since they are partners now.



> "there is a limit to the chakra you manage to _pull away from him_...".


 That limit being only 6 tails worth of chakra, to unlock the rest of Kurama's chakra and his full potential as a Jinchuuriki he needs Kurama's partnership.


----------



## blk (Apr 9, 2013)

@Panther:

Ok, i concede since there are not enough (or maybe i just don't remember them) evidences for my thesis; yours is more plausible.

However, a last thing: what happens when the RM chakra ends? Does it regenerate on its own? It would be strange.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Apr 9, 2013)

I seem to recall Obito going in for the "Touch of death" thats when Kakashi came in with Gai.
Obito can take Naruto one on one.
The sole reason as to why Obito couldn't get far was because of Kakashi and the Kamui.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2013)

blk said:


> This doesn't say that the RM chakra has a separate source from Kurama.


Except it does. Its shown in its own part of the seal. Even Bee said that once Naruto separates Kurama's chakra from his body and will, its Naruto's, not Kurama's, forever.

Its a completely separate source.


> The reason for why Naruto was able to use the BM a second and a third time was because Kurama recharged his chakra: therefore he wasn't exhausted.


Biju Mode has a limit since the bond isn't complete.




> I don't see any yellow flash when Minato uses Hirashin.
> 
> That Jonin didn't seemed sure that his enemy was Minato.


And the Databook makes it out that Minato's Yellow Flash moniker is because of Hiraishin. When a mass Hiraishin is being prepped, Minato's called the Yellow Flash.





> Again, Hirashin is a S/T jutsu, it is stated clearly through the manga.
> 
> They compare Naruto to Minato because:
> 
> ...


Where is it clearly stated in the manga that Hirashin's Jikukan? Its been specified in the databook, which you want to discount, sure, but where in the manga itself?

Naruto has gotten DIRECTLY COMPARED TO THE HIRAISHIN. Several times. Yet you want to insist that Hiraishin's faster or that Naruto isn't up to par despite the manga itself going out of the way to say that Naruto's speed is exactly the same. I have feats and manga statements. You have conjecture and refusal to accept Naruto is on his father's level of speed.






> I don't know how this address what i said and happened in the manga; Minato was able to do it because of Hirashin, the same scans that you linked clarify this.
> 
> Naruto cannot replicate this because he doesn't have Hirashin, and because Obito has knowledge.
> 
> Further, it is shown in the manga that Naruto couldn't touch Obito without Kakashi and his other allies.


Naruto _never even fucking used his speed against Obito._ He was made full of PIS and CIS, completely forgetting his high speed movement over several times over the course of the fight. 

There is _absolutely no reason why Naruto can't replicate Minato's feat,_ other than whatever it is you have against Naruto.


> With knowledge, Obito knows that he just needs to wait in order to basically win the fight; he won't use his warping, with all the risks that it involves, when he doesn't need it.


Obito can win via a warping, its his modus operanti. He's attempted to warp his opponents several times over the course of the manga, so you can't claim he won't use his standard strategy.


----------



## Rikudou No Sennin (Apr 9, 2013)

Retarded thread.


----------



## αce (Apr 9, 2013)

I thought the manga made it blatantly obvious that Naruto wasn't able to beat Obito without Kakashi's help, specifically because Gai and Kakashi told Naruto to _not use_ his large techniques as they would just become completely useless infront of his Kamui. And besides, one touch and Kamui should end the match up. The only instance of someone escaping Kamui's warping speed came from instantaneous teleportation. 

I guess I'll have to read through arguments I'm just going to end up disagreeing with anyways.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2013)

blk said:


> It doesn't have an higher probability of being a longer period of time.
> You can't determine the probability without being able to at least quantify the time roughly.


how in the world would a timespan that has 4 times as many unquantifiable time events NOT have a higher probability?  And I HAVE quantified the time roughly via comparing the conversations and showing the actions that occured within the event.  However no matter what evidence is brought to the table, you reject it because it doesn't PROVE that.

If we represent a dice as an event of unquantifiable time, would you not agree that if you rolled the dice 12 times and added up the numbers rolled on each turn, there is a greater chance that your sum total would be greater than if you rolled the dice 3 times and then proceeded to add up the numbers rolled on eachturn? 




blk said:


> Bee wasn't defeated, and as far as we now Gai may have been caught in a random explosion of the exchange between Madara and Naruto.


Bee was explicitly shown on the ground unable to even move after the timeskip and was far more damaged than he was throughout the entire course of the Obito fight, and saying "as far as we know Gai...." is simply playing the extreme skeptic card.  How PROBABLE would it be that Gai was oneshotted by a random explosion or in an exchange between himself and Naruto in less than a minute?



blk said:


> How can you compare an almost exhausted Gai to the Gokage? And as shown different times, any of the Kage alone would have been defeated in a very short time even against a non-serious Madara.


Wow your lack of integrity is just astounding.  It's not Gai vs Madara it's Gai, Naruto and Bee vs Madara.  THAT'S what you have to compare to the Gokage, and Gai was not even huffing and puffing or showing any signs of fatigue before Madara came into the fight, so there is absolutely no evidence that he was 'almost exhausted'.  

None of the gokage members came even close to the shape Gai was until Madara pulled out PS, yet Madara doesn't pull out PS and states he is only getting serious AFTER the timeskip, yet Gai is down and bloodied.





blk said:


> Your assumptions do not have an higher probability of being right than the alternative, therefore the analogy doesn't work.


of course they do and anyone looking at this thread honestly and objectively would know that.

In every single one of your counterarguments, all you have done is point out that my arguments aren't NECESSARILY true.  That's it, and with that kind of burden of proof, 99% of the arguments in Narutoforums would fall in the same bucket as the one you are putting my current arguments in.

Konohomaru vs KCM Naruto, which one is faster?  Evidence points towards KCM Naruto being faster since he was shown to be faster, yet is it NECESSARILY true that KCM Naruto is faster?  For all we know, Konohomaru could have learned FTG or an even faster space/time jutsu from his last showing, or he could have been holding back his speed all this time in the manga.  So by your logic, we don't know if KCM NAruto is faster than Konohomaru and thus it is fallacious to say KCM NAruto is faster than Konohomaru.  



blk said:


> As i already said, the flashback could have lasted less than a minute or more than five; either are equally possible.


in no way shape or form is the flashback lasting a less than a minute equally as probable as the flasback lasting a longer time when we see Bee and Gai both defeated and mokuton littering the landscape AND madara stating he's only getting serious after the timeskip while the Gokage survive against him for hours.

Debate honestly BLK, I'm pretty sure that you already know that your arguments assert an incredibly unfair burden of proof on the opposition, a burden of proof that you don't subject your own arguments against, yet you are simply arguing for the sake or arguing.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Apr 9, 2013)

αce said:


> I thought the manga made it blatantly obvious that Naruto wasn't able to beat Obito without Kakashi's help, specifically because Gai and Kakashi told Naruto to _not use_ his large techniques as they would just become completely useless infront of his Kamui. And besides, one touch and Kamui should end the match up. The only instance of someone escaping Kamui's warping speed came from instantaneous teleportation.
> 
> I guess I'll have to read through arguments I'm just going to end up disagreeing with anyways.



Oh look. It is Ace the great one.

Just as I was about to leave the thread I am now forced to respond.

The manga made it clear that Obito no longer found that warping Naruto was going to be a viable option to gaining victory. Its too high risk now that warping a clone can really mess up his fighting style.

Plus, Naruto kicked his ass in Storm 3. Yes, it is cannon in my reality. Trololol


----------



## Shinryu (Apr 9, 2013)

The bijuu get soloed
After 5 minutes Obito gets nuked
He can only use Izanagi twice and if he goes blind then even Base Naruto could fodderize him


----------



## Jak N Blak (Apr 9, 2013)

100% agreed. Base Naruto solos


----------



## Kai (Apr 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Only reason he can't do TKB in SM is when he has clones gathering chakra elsewhere, or if he wants to use 3 SM FRS.  Other than that he used TKB in SM against Deva and disguised them as rocks and TKB against Kurama while in SM.


TKB were all base clones disguised as rocks against Deva Path; Naruto's mind feats against Kurama are not only arguable but don't represent the norm of any fight with a shinobi.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Later against Tobi, it was a 4 vs 1 situation, Naruto wasn't trying to kill Tobi, and after the first chapter of scuffling in which naruto merely used 1 clone as a distraction, they switched to the kamui tactic because it was more efficient.


*Tobi: "You fool... to think you would attack by yourself."*

Your subjectivity doesn't fall in line with the manga. Naruto lost when he fought Tobi by himself and his Kage Bunshin were dispersed by Tobi's superior reflexes and physical force.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> So no, using TKB in SM in this situation is all three: viable, possible and reasonable.  Using multiple KCM clones is as well.


We've seen the fight and the emphasis on the teamwork with Kakashi and Gai. It's your problem if you didn't consider it essential against Tobi.

Gai also ordered Kakashi to snap out of his thoughts because Naruto needed him to be there against Tobi.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Naruto didn't even use his ei-level speed, tajuu kagebunshin no jutsu or even lethal rasengans when facing Tobi, and since it was a 4 vs 1 situation in addition to having kakashi's kamui as a viable alternative to spamming clones and doing everything by himself, that is the technique they used.


Yeah, and Naruto doesn't use Kuchiyose in 90% of his fights so according to your malformed logic this invalidates all of his losses?

No. You fail to acknowledge Naruto has gone _all out_ without resorting to those techs. The fight was displayed, Naruto lost one on one and it has nothing to do with PIS. Naruto used teamwork to fight the execution speed of Kamui and this was stressed in canon. Kakashi told Naruto if he knew Tobi's ability his firepower would be useless against Kamui and to rely on their coordinated attacks.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Of course he hasn't shown that because he didn't need to, he had 3 other teamates, one of which had a more efficient counter to Tobi's Kamui.


Teamwork was necessary in that fight evident in the facts that both Naruto and Kakashi needed to be saved by each other's coordinated attacks against Tobi's Kamui timing and top tier reaction feats.

Only your misguided interpretation of Narutos strength believes Naruto had power to make up for what was critical coordination when the manga explicitly showed Naruto at Tobi's mercy twice even when fighting alongside Gai.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Your entire argument is basically "Naruto didn't do this in the manga, so he doesn't do it here" which is not only in itself fallacious reasoning in the battledome which leads to ridiculous results, but it also would not apply here since:


You need to accept a loss with in character performances even if the character didn't resort to the full arsenal. Saying Naruto was both not at full power and not bloodlusted against his fated battle with Tobi can't be seen as anything less than the finest trolling and wank for the main character.

Anyone with a sense knows Naruto won't be the most powerful or more powerful than the arc villain until the end of that arc/series.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> TKB were all base clones disguised as rocks against Deva Path; Naruto's mind feats against Kurama are not only arguable but don't represent the norm of any fight with a shinobi.


the clones disguised as rocks were Sage clones as NAruto made them while in sage mode, and like the other sage clones we saw with Naruto, they reverted to base after the original reverted to base.  

There are only 3 differences between naruto's abilities in his mind and the outside:
1) he could grab kurama's chakra
2) he could fly, which is something he didn't use in battle
3) he could gather natural energy while moving

If you can't show how one of these three differences would affect his ability to use sage clones in the real world, or find some reason I didn't list, then the mind feats do apply.  



Kai said:


> *Tobi: "You fool... to think you would attack by yourself."*
> 
> Your subjectivity doesn't fall in line with the manga. Naruto lost when he fought Tobi by himself and his Kage Bunshin were dispersed by Tobi's superior reflexes and physical force.


Is that it?  Naruto doing 1 attack in which we know Obito can dodge in a 1 vs 1 situation somehow proves that Naruto would lose to Obito if he uses many clones, uses flash speed, or uses lethal rasengans?  

Obviously not.  Going by this logic, I guess Kishi wanted to show us that Fuu and Tourine were superior to BM Naruto since they ended up doing more damage to Obito.



Kai said:


> We've seen the fight and the emphasis on the teamwork with Kakashi and Gai. It's your problem if you didn't consider it essential against Tobi.


how does this response in any way show that TKB is not possible, plausible and viable?  In the fight, Naruto simply had a better more efficient way of damaging Obito: Kakashi's kamui.  So they used it.

It in no way means that Naruto would not be able to defeat Obito with TKB or without his comrades.



Kai said:


> Gai also ordered Kakashi to snap out of his thoughts because Naruto needed him to be there against Tobi.


He needed him in order to perform the kamui strategy.  Just because fights happen a certain way in manga in no way means that that's the only way to beat someone.



Kai said:


> Yeah, and Naruto doesn't use Kuchiyose in 90% of his fights so according to your malformed logic this invalidates all of his losses?


Obviously it would only invalidate his losses if using Kuchiyose would have made a big enough difference that it would be a gamechanger.

And in no way shape or form can you equate using Kutchiyose to using TKB or naruto's fast movement speed or flash shunshin.

Those abilities of Naruto's are explicit counters to Obito's abilities and thus in no way is my logic malformed in saying because Naruto didn't use it in manga canon, it's not going to make a huge difference in this fight.



Kai said:


> No. You fail to acknowledge Naruto has gone _all out_ without resorting to those techs. The fight was displayed and Naruto lost one on one. Naruto used teamwork to fight the execution speed of Kamui and this was stressed in canon. Kakashi told Naruto if he knew Tobi's ability his firepower would be useless against Kamui and to rely on their coordinated attacks.


In no way shape or form did BM Naruto lose the fight, and in no way shape or form was Naruto going all out.   Naruto wasn't even trying to kill obito, didn't use his flash shunshin, TKB or abilities that would explicitly counter obito, in addition to the fact that he only states he is going all out when he fights Madara.  



Kai said:


> Teamwork was necessary in that fight evident in the facts that both Naruto and Kakashi needed to be saved by each other's coordinated attacks against Tobi's Kamui timing and top tier reaction feats.


Teamwork was more VIABLE, and them using it in no way means that it was necessary.  And naruto using teamwork with himself by making more clones would still be canonically in line with teamwork being necessary.

The whole saved argument is easily fallacious as well.  Naruto was saved by Sandaime raikage by dodai, he was saved from Nagato by itachi, he was saved from edo jinks in human form by bee, yet does that mean that Naruto at full power would lose to all of those guys simply because he needed to be saved?  Of course not.



Kai said:


> Only your misguided interpretation of Narutos strength believes Naruto had power to make up for what was critical coordination when the manga explicitly showed Naruto at Tobi's mercy twice even when fighting alongside Gai.


If I can show you that Naruto's canonical power does in fact easily allow him to counter the abilities Obito has shown in manga canon, then in no way shape or form is it misguided.  

I have shown you that the only reason Naruto was at Tobi's mercy is because he was not using his super speed, clones, lethal rasengan or flash shunshin.  Thus against the Naruto in this thread, Tobi in no way is repeating that against Naruto.



Kai said:


> You need to accept a loss with in character performances even if the character didn't resort to the full arsenal. Saying Naruto was both not at full power and not bloodlusted against his fated battle with Tobi can't be seen as anything less than the finest trolling and wank for the main character.


Lol, so your arguments have stooped to merely calling my own "trolling and wanking".   You've just admitted in this very post that Naruto didn't resort to his full arsenal and tacitly admitted that if he did then he would have won since you have yet to counter any of my arguments while instead merely repeat "it happened this way in the manga" while ignoring the reasons why.

You even misrepresent my own argument by claiming I say Naruto is bloodlusted, while I only state that he is going for the kill rather than trying to demask Tobi which is what the thread OP is claiming.




Kai said:


> Anyone with a sense knows Naruto won't be the most powerful or more powerful than the arc villain until the end of that arc/series.


Is that it?  That's like saying "everyone knows Naruto and Sasuke are equals and thus BM Naruto vs EMS Sasuke would be a tie".  Goodness gracious, if you want to argue  simply raw outcomes or your own subjective interpretation of author portrayal that is directly falsified by feats, you have to be willing to pedal to other things like Sai and Kankuro being > Deidara and Sasori, a single SM Naruto clone > Sandaime raikage, or Fuu and Tourine > BM Naruto or SM Naruto > Pein.  And even if you do stoop to accepting those things, it still doesn't show that my argument isn't correct, it would merely be the action of you not utilizing double standards in your own subjective manga world view.  

In addition, this is current Naruto and the current arc villain is Datara (Juubi MAdara and Obito) which completely negates your already fallacious benchmark argument.

The fact that you completely stay away from feats is a concession on your part, as you don't deny that if Naruto used his flash shunshin, or made lots of clones, or used a lethal rasengan, or wanted to kill Obito, he would have succeeded in doing so.

Kai, I would be perfectly fine with conceding BM Naruto loses if Obito in fact had what it takes to beat naruto when it's 1 vs 1 and Naruto is going for the kill.  Obito couldn't even react to Naruto's headbutt when the later was right in front of him, how is he going to react to a flash shunshin when he's occupied by many clones?  Anyways, you probably already realized that we aren't going to come to an agreement on this.  It's not a mere discrepancy of bringing arguments to the table about this specific thread, it's more about our entire outlook on the manga and how we evaluate them.  You method of analysis seems to be more about trying to hold the outcomes of a fight over the feats displayed in said fights.  I haven't adopted that kind of method for the reasons I've brought to the table in this debate, however you are perfectly justified in using that method if you don't utilize double standards in order to avoid outcomes you might not like.  Regardless, I want to lay down the proposition of agreeing to disagree on this thread, because I can't see this going anywhere unless either one of us changes our entire view of the manga.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 10, 2013)

Technically, Naruto can defeat Obito in RM through the use of Kage Bunshin. It's is a hard check to Kamui, especially considering the caliber of Naruto's clones. His Body Flicker is advanced enough to strike Obito in the minute window he materializes to attack, providing Naruto's timing is perfect.

Though we can't just...ignore what happened in the Manga. Kishi wouldn't have Kakashi come up with a complex strategy to bypass Kamui if Naruto was capable on his own. Obito is the victor, as in canon.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> *Though we can't just...ignore what happened in the Manga*. Kishi wouldn't have Kakashi come up with a complex strategy to bypass Kamui if Naruto was capable on his own. Obito is the victor, as in canon.



Rocky, what exactly did happen in the manga? 

Does Kishi showing Bee rushing over to stop giant shuriken and losing a tentacle over it mean Naruto would have been screwed if Bee didn't intervene?

Because that instance pretty much summed up the Obito vs team Naruto fight.  Naruto trying to kill GM with a normal rasengan does a pretty good job as well.

We've already seen that BM Naruto doesn't even need his flash shunshin in order to tag an occupied Obito, how is Obito going to deal with the Naruto that's in this thread?


----------



## blk (Apr 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except it does. Its shown in its own part of the seal. Even Bee said that once Naruto separates Kurama's chakra from his body and will, its Naruto's, not Kurama's, forever.
> 
> Its a completely separate source.



I concede about this.



> Biju Mode has a limit since the bond isn't complete.



A more complete bond increase the time-limit, but it doesn't disappear: Kurama doesn't have infinite chakra.



> And the Databook makes it out that Minato's Yellow Flash moniker is because of Hiraishin. When a mass Hiraishin is being prepped, Minato's called the Yellow Flash.



I'm still not seeing any "yellow flash" while he uses Hirashin.

It is more likely that "yellow flash" is a metaphor or something similar.



> Where is it clearly stated in the manga that Hirashin's Jikukan? Its been specified in the databook, which you want to discount, sure, but where in the manga itself?
> 
> Naruto has gotten DIRECTLY COMPARED TO THE HIRAISHIN. Several times. Yet you want to insist that Hiraishin's faster or that Naruto isn't up to par despite the manga itself going out of the way to say that Naruto's speed is exactly the same. I have feats and manga statements. You have conjecture and refusal to accept Naruto is on his father's level of speed.



Against Obito, Minato said "he has a better S/T jutsu than my own and Tobirama" or something similar, implying that Hirashin is an actual S/T jutsu.
But there are even more instances, if you look more carefully.

Conjecture? Show me feats of Naruto that are similar to Hirashin, like instantly teleporting from the Hokage's Mountain to a random chalet in the forest, or instantly teleporting from a battlefield to the place where Obito "died".

Naruto's Shunshin feats are not even close to the above, he only moves very fastly within a very limited range.



> Naruto _never even fucking used his speed against Obito._ He was made full of PIS and CIS, completely forgetting his high speed movement over several times over the course of the fight.
> 
> There is _absolutely no reason why Naruto can't replicate Minato's feat,_ other than whatever it is you have against Naruto.
> 
> Obito can win via a warping, its his modus operanti. He's attempted to warp his opponents several times over the course of the manga, so you can't claim he won't use his standard strategy.



What?
You are saying that Obito will opt for an almost suicide strategy despite the fact that he has knowledge and knows that he can win just by waiting, because that's how he fight in the manga. While Naruto will made an exstensive use of clones and Shunshin, despite the fact that he didn't do so in the manga and therefore is isn't his _modus operanti_, with the excuse of CIS.

Do you realize that this is a huge double standard? Or both of them have CIS, and therefore fight as they did in the manga, or both of them use the knowledge and fight intelligently: you can't use CIS for Obito but not for Naruto.





ueharakk said:


> how in the world would a timespan that has 4 times as many unquantifiable time events NOT have a higher probability?  And I HAVE quantified the time roughly via comparing the conversations and showing the actions that occured within the event.  However no matter what evidence is brought to the table, you reject it because it doesn't PROVE that.



I shown to you an example (Kakashi spouting an entire phrase while the kunai kicked by Obito almost remained immobile) of how conversations are completely unreliable method of evaluation of the time.
Mere actions are even less reliable.



> If we represent a dice as an event of unquantifiable time, would you not agree that if you rolled the dice 12 times and added up the numbers rolled on each turn, there is a greater chance that your sum total would be greater than if you rolled the dice 3 times and then proceeded to add up the numbers rolled on eachturn?



This depends on the numbers that these dices have, which we don't know.

However, mind you that i'm not saying that the second time that Naruto used the BM it lasted less than the first (which is not true since he said that it lasted 8 minutes instead of 5), but that you have no way for prove that the BM without the Kurama Avatar doesn't have such time-limit.



> Bee was explicitly shown on the ground unable to even move after the timeskip and was far more damaged than he was throughout the entire course of the Obito fight, and saying "as far as we know Gai...." is simply playing the extreme skeptic card.  How PROBABLE would it be that Gai was oneshotted by a random explosion or in an exchange between himself and Naruto in less than a minute?
> 
> Wow your lack of integrity is just astounding.  It's not Gai vs Madara it's Gai, Naruto and Bee vs Madara.  THAT'S what you have to compare to the Gokage, and Gai was not even huffing and puffing or showing any signs of fatigue before Madara came into the fight, so there is absolutely no evidence that he was 'almost exhausted'.



I don't know how probable it is that Gai received a significant damage in a little time, but i know that there are no reasons for preferring your interpretation.



> None of the gokage members came even close to the shape Gai was until Madara pulled out PS, yet Madara doesn't pull out PS and states he is only getting serious AFTER the timeskip, yet Gai is down and bloodied.



If Tsunade didn't have Byakuyo, she would have died in that little exchange with Madara's clone.
Or again, the Flower World + Susano'o combo could have finished the battle in seconds if it wasn't for Onoki's "will of rock".

But anyway, you know too that Madara could have ended the battle in seconds in every moment even without Perfect Susano'o, had he used more seriously his powers.




> of course they do and anyone looking at this thread honestly and objectively would know that.
> 
> In every single one of your counterarguments, all you have done is point out that my arguments aren't NECESSARILY true.  That's it, and with that kind of burden of proof, 99% of the arguments in Narutoforums would fall in the same bucket as the one you are putting my current arguments in.
> 
> ...



I'm not saying that your arguments are not necessarily true, i'm saying that your assumptions don't have an higher probability of being right than the alternative.
Saying "anyone who look at this objectively knows that i'm right" will not render your argument more acceptable than the alternative.

Mokuton can completely change the landscape in seconds, and Gai is not really suited for fight against it.

And stop saying "the burden of proof is unfair" or "debate honestly", there is nothing unfair or dishonest about this: your argument has no valid evidences, therefore i do not accept it.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2013)

blk said:


> I shown to you an example (Kakashi spouting an entire phrase while the kunai kicked by Obito almost remained immobile) of how conversations are completely unreliable method of evaluation of the time.
> Mere actions are even less reliable.


Thus both fights consist of conversations and actions, thus no matter how unreliable you think conversations are, if two conversations occur then they cancel each other out, same for the actions.




blk said:


> This depends on the numbers that these dices have, which we don't know.


The numbers on the dice are irrelevant.  Since you say there is no way of quantifying it, then picking an event would be a random roll of a dice.  If you want to make it picking a number out of 100, 1,000, 10,000 it's all the same: the more times you pick, the better chances you have.



blk said:


> However, mind you that i'm not saying that the second time that Naruto used the BM it lasted less than the first (which is not true since he said that it lasted 8 minutes instead of 5), but that you have no way for prove that the BM without the Kurama Avatar doesn't have such time-limit.


Once again, I don't have to prove my stance, I just have to show that it is the more supported stance.




blk said:


> I don't know how probable it is that Gai received a significant damage in a little time, but i know that there are no reasons for preferring your interpretation.


Simply saying "I don't know how probable"  while I have given you a positive argument about why it would be my assertion would be more probable means that my argument IS the more probable one my side is supported by evidence while the opposite is not.  So you would logically have to agree that my side is the more probable of the two.




blk said:


> If Tsunade didn't have Byakuyo, she would have died in that little exchange with Madara's clone.
> Or again, the Flower World + Susano'o combo could have finished the battle in seconds if it wasn't for Onoki's "will of rock".


How long had she been fighting before that?  And Tsunade explicitly STATED that she was trying to find an opening with that tech.




blk said:


> But anyway, you know too that Madara could have ended the battle in seconds in every moment even without Perfect Susano'o, had he used more seriously his powers.


what in the world is that based on? 







blk said:


> I'm not saying that your arguments are not necessarily true, i'm saying that your assumptions don't have an higher probability of being right than the alternative.
> Saying "anyone who look at this objectively knows that i'm right" will not render your argument more acceptable than the alternative.


blk, look at the counterarguments you give.  All they do are playing the super skeptic card and showing why my arguments are not necessarily true, and because of that you say that my assumptions don't have a higher probability of being right than the alternative. 

And I make the statement that anyone looking at our argument honestly and objectively would know that I'm right because it is true, you simply put an extreme burden of proof on the opposition while not subjecting your own stance to the same thing.  




blk said:


> Mokuton can completely change the landscape in seconds, and Gai is not really suited for fight against it.


so what?  That doesn't necessarily mean that madara's mokuton has to completely change the landscape or that it only took seconds.  And why does Gai have to fight against it? 





blk said:


> And stop saying "the burden of proof is unfair" or "debate honestly", there is nothing unfair or dishonest about this: your argument has no valid evidences, therefore i do not accept it.


Once again, I have explicitly proved to you and anyone reading our argument that you do in fact put an unfair burden of proof on the opposition yet you do not subject your own arguments to that same level of scrutiny.  Thus it is a blatant double standard on your part, and thus an argument that uses a double standard is one that holds no water.

Also, you have tacitly conceded this argument due to the fact that you have ignored my konohomaru vs naruto example simply because it exposes the kind of conclusions that your logic leads to.

Debate honestly blk, I shouldn't have to back you into a corner in order for you to not use your double standard logic.  If you want to be super skeptic and require a 100% burden of proof before you accept something, then you should do the same for your own arguments, yet is that what you do?


----------



## blk (Apr 10, 2013)

@ueharakk:

I have enough of this debate, it is going in circles.
As far as i'm concerned, your argument is not more probable than the alternative, therefore i do not accept it.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2013)

blk said:


> @ueharakk:
> 
> I have enough of this debate, it is going in circles.
> As far as i'm concerned, your argument is not more probable than the alternative, therefore i do not accept it.


Just tell me this, what do you say about the KCM Naruto vs Konohomaru speed example?  What are your comments on that?

I would be fine if you do not accept it as long as you use the same standard of scrutiny on your own arguments whenever you make an assertion that you can't prove no matter how compelling the evidence for that assertion is.


----------



## blk (Apr 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Just tell me this, what do you say about the KCM Naruto vs Konohomaru speed example?  What are your comments on that?
> 
> I would be fine if you do not accept it as long as you use the same standard of scrutiny on your own arguments whenever you make an assertion that you can't prove no matter how compelling the evidence for that assertion is.



Regarding the Naruto vs Konohomaru example, i agree with you, it is not necessarily true, but it is probable that Naruto is faster.

The problem here is that you keep on misinterpreting me: i do not think that someone has to prove something with 100% certainity, but with enough evidences for make it more likely than the alternative.

And that's what i'm continously saying about your argument: i do not see it as more as probable than the alternative.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2013)

blk said:


> Regarding the Naruto vs Konohomaru example, i agree with you, it is not necessarily true, but it is probable that Naruto is faster.
> 
> The problem here is that you keep on misinterpreting me: i do not think that someone has to prove something with 100% certainity, but with enough evidences for make it more likely than the alternative.


yet I have given you evidences that make it more likely than the alternative, but you continuously rebutt those evidences by merely showing that they don't necessarily make my argument more plausible.

In the naruto vs konohomaru example, give me any piece of evidence and I can show you another alternative to that evidence that you can't disprove and attach a "for all we know" to the front of it.



blk said:


> And that's what i'm continously saying about your argument: i do not see it as more as probable than the alternative.


And what I'M continuously saying about your counterarguments is that pretty much any argument no matter how supported by evidence can be rendered as "not more probable than the alternative" if you play the skeptic card enough.

Now if you wanted to say "the evidence against the notion IMO is heavier than the evidence for the notion" then that is all fine and dandy since it's subjective interpretation, however, simply saying "none of your arguments make it more probable" is something that can be done to even the most compelling of arguments.


----------



## blk (Apr 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yet I have given you evidences that make it more likely than the alternative, but you continuously rebutt those evidences by merely showing that they don't necessarily make my argument more plausible.



The evidences that you shown are valid for your argument _only_ under an _assumption_ that is favourable to your thesis.
The exact _same number_ of assumptions can be used for render the evidences _invalid_ for your argument.

Therefore, it is not more probable than the alternative.

That's all i have to say, for anything else, just check the previous posts.
I'll not reply anymore to this matter.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 10, 2013)

blk said:


> The evidences that you shown are valid for your argument _only_ under an _assumption_ that is favourable to your thesis.
> The exact _same number_ of assumptions can be used for render the evidences _invalid_ for your argument.


as can be said for any other evidence for any other argument no matter how compelling or not.  

Look at how you've rebutted my evidences, you've merely posed another alternative explanation and attached a "for all we know" to the front of it.

I could do that for any argument.  KCM NAruto vs Konhomaru in speed.  KCM Naruto outspeeds ei, I just say "for all we know Konohomaru could have outspeeded Ei as well since we don't know how fast he currently is and he hasn't been put in the same situation"  

that's exactly what you've been doing in this very thread, and i'd advise you to go take a look at it yourself if you honestly don't think you are guilty of this.




blk said:


> Therefore, it is not more probable than the alternative.
> 
> That's all i have to say, for anything else, just check the previous posts.
> I'll not reply anymore to this matter.


Regardless if you decide to reply back or not, I highly advise you to actually give what I'm saying a thought and see if you are actually guilty of what I have been accusing you of for the last 2 pages and many other threads.


----------



## Larcher (Apr 10, 2013)

I go with Obito cause Naruto might be able to hold his own for abit against all six of them Bijou but eventually they'll outlast him also isn't Obito pretty much the strongest in the Manga with Gedo mazou.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Apr 13, 2013)

Well, you know, SM Naruto with Frog Kata, if he can trick Obito to simply dodge, that would kill Obito there.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Apr 14, 2013)

A Frog Kata alone can't defeat Obito. Even I know that.


----------



## TheGreen1 (Apr 14, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> A Frog Kata alone can't defeat Obito. Even I know that.



Let's say we get him right in the face, bust his eyes too, what does Obito have then?

Though Obito has regeneration, if he can't see what's going on, he can't know when to dodge.


----------

