# Tsukuyomi vs. Raikage



## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

The 4th or 3rd, argue for whichever.

I'm just curious, as Tsukuyomi focuses on breaking a victims spirit with forms of torture. That seems like it would be child's play to the very pain tolerant men that are the Raikage.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none
> 
> ...



It seems tailored for them. Besides, if Sage Kabuto acknowledged Itachi could control and defeat him with Tsukuyomi, then I think we can throw out the sort of thought process you're lobbing. If Itachi tricks or forces eye contact with a non-Uchiha, it's over.​


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Once they're inside Tsukuyomi, their real world durability and endurance is completely immaterial.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Yes, but what will Itachi actually do. The Raikage cut his fucking hand off without flinching so he could "get back to kicking Sasuke's ass". That's some hardcore resiliency. It isn't about durability. 

My question is, are the Raikage too hard to break? What froms of torture could Itachi apply?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes, but what will Itachi actually do.



Does it really matter what we think up? Itachi's essentially god for 72+ hours, and the databook says that having a body of steel makes no difference. A's pain tolerance is entirely in Itachi's hands.​


Rocky said:


> My question is, are the Raikage too hard to break? What froms of torture could Itachi apply?



Itachi seemed to be able to access Naruto's worst fear, drawing upon Naruto's past  with Sasuke, Gaara, etc. that shook Naruto deeply after a few seconds of being in the illusion. 

I'm sure A has his own hangups, especially given his personality. With that said, I think excessive mutilation without having to worry about the victim passing out from pain would break A anyway.​


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

This is terribly graphic, but  is what Tsukuyomi torture is based off. A sacrificed his hand because he had to. He fully understand the decision and did not take it lightly. Note that before that before the fight he still had all of his limbs. No matter how high your pain tolerance is, twenty-four hours of being slowly killed would be absolutely insufferable. 

But that's not even the point. The entire point of genjutsu is to control the victim's brain.
Just as much as the user affects what the victime sees and hears, the user affects what he or she feels. Essentially, the genjutsu user is entirely in control of the victim's pain. So no matter how high once's pain tolerance is, it would simply require the user to adjust.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> and the databook says that having a body of steel makes no difference. A's pain tolerance is entirely in Itachi's hands.




Pain tolerance has nothing to do with durability. You can't just change someone's tolerance to pain lol.





> Itachi seemed to be able to access Naruto's worst fear, drawing upon Naruto's past epxeriences with Sasuke, Gaara, etc. I'm sure A has his own hangups, especially given his personality.​




Ei is much harder than Naruto. Some people can't be broken by three days of torture, whether it be physical or emotional.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Pain tolerance has nothing to do with durability. You can't just change someone's tolerance to pain lol.



You totally can though.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:
			
		

> You totally can though, lol.



How?

The purpose of Tsukuyomi is to break the victim. Why go through the 3-day torture of you could just break them right away? Tsukuyomi can't touch someone's tolerance. Tsukuyomi has to overcome it by various means of torture, which is what we saw when the Jutsu was used.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Pain tolerance has nothing to do with durability. You can't just change someone's tolerance to pain lol.



You definitely can alter pain tolerance with drugs, and genjutsu is essentially a drug in the sense that it controls neurochemistry with chakra, inducing alternate sensation.​


Rocky said:


> Ei is much harder than Naruto. Some people can't be broken by three days of torture, whether it be physical or emotional.



... Tsukuyomi torture isn't emotely close to 3 days of torture in our world. Itachi can cut A into little pieces, burn him, etc. and the pain stays perfectly intense because no bodily harm is done.

In our world, if you lit me on fire, I would only be in incredible pain very briefly before my nervous tissue burnt away. With slower torture, you'd have to keep the intensity low to prevent me from passing out or have my brain release endorphins to mitigate pain.

 And if the 3rd Raikage was weakened enough to go down after 3 days of fighting, then he'll damn sure be weakened enough after 3 days of horrifically impossible torture.​


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> How?
> 
> The purpose of Tsukuyomi is to break the victim. Why go through the 3-day torture of you could just break them right away?



More time means greater effect. Slow slicing is a lot more effective than an instant of massive pain.

And you have to recall that this all works in just a second for the user. Madara did it mid back flip. In reality, they are breaking them "right away."


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## Octavian (Jul 19, 2013)

In my opinion, the only creatures that can straight up tank Tsukuyomi are the Kyuubi (considering the manner in which it was sealed within Kushina) and the Juubi.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You definitely can alter pain tolerance with drugs, and genjutsu is essentially a drug in the sense that it controls neurochemistry with chakra, inducing alternate sensation.​




What drugs? 





> ... Tsukuyomi torture isn't emotely close to 3 days of torture in our world. Itachi can cut A into little pieces, burn him, etc. and the pain stays perfectly intense because no bodily harm is done.
> 
> In our world, if you lit me on fire, I would only be in incredible pain very briefly before my nervous tissue burnt away. With slower torture, you'd have to be very careful not have me pass out.
> 
> Which means the intensity would have to be lower. And if the 3rd Raikage was weakened enough after 3 days of fighting, then he'll damn sure be weakened enough after 3 days of horrifically impossible torture.​




Then it depends on how much Pain you think these guys can take. The body won't be physically damaged at all, so The 3rd Raikage's 3 days of fighting is different. He could have died from dehydration for all we know.


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## crisler (Jul 19, 2013)

Everyone has their worst memory and mental weakness that they want to hide. 

Their physical durability matters not and this is why tsukuyomi is such a deadly weapon. Because everyone has weaknesses and mental breakdowns.

Raikage seems mentally strong but everyone has their weakness. Start from where he couldn't protect Bee or his father and he'll fall eventually. The same for 3rd raikage.

Itachi seems to have access to the enemy's memory as seen by him torturing Naruto. Game is over. Not even the kyuubi.

The ones that I think have resistance is,

Naruto - He fought his fears and problems in that waterfall. 
Hashirama - He went through the hardest decision in life, killing madara. 
Madara - Not only is he physically the most gifted to fight tsukuyomi (EMS, uchiha, strong chakra even amongst uchiha) he's gone through a lot of things.
Sasuke - Worst part of his life was Itachi and the clan, and it's partially solved with ET Itachi. 

Other than those I doubt it...even obito or nagato will be broken down pretty easily. Especially nagato... however, there is the issue that both of them probably have natural resistance against tuskuyomi thanks to their eyes/body.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What drugs?



Morphine for major pain relief. Certain types of substances, like platypus venom, cause pain. Pain tolerance is also decreased the more identical pain you suffer due to sensitization. 72 hours GG.​


Rocky said:


> Then it depends on how much Pain you think these guys can take.



There's no evidence, anywhere, that anything in the manga can endure three days of being intensely burned for 72 hours and come out of it ready to fight. And that's just one angle for Itachi.

Kisame/Kakashi indicated that Tsukuyomi could 'kill' if Itachi wanted it to, and common sense pretty much backs that up. Tsukuyomi can definitely be intense enough to make anybody a vegetable.

Or as the databook says, "annihilate the soul," which is essentially the mind and makes us us... it's definitely my favorite jutsu purely because it's so horrifying. If there was an afterlife, you'd be too crippled by the experience (PTSD x ∞) to ever enjoy it.​


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Morphine for major pain relief. Certain types of substances, like platypus venom, cause pain. Pain tolerance is also decreased the more identical pain you suffer due to sensitization. 72 hours GG.​



A kid will cry if he's scratched, James Bond laughs at having his testicles smashed. 

Bond isn't necessarily more durable than the kid, he's just harder to break. I don't really know how to explain the concept.





> There's no evidence, anywhere, that anything in the manga can endure three days of being intensely burned for 72 hours and come out of it ready to fight. And that's just one angle for Itachi.​




I think you're actually overestimating torture. 

These aren't normal people. Check out the Kyuubi's seal in Kushina. Pretty Brutal. Surviving _years_ like that...man, you would think it would've been affected in some way, but no. It came out pissed off, not broken.


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## LostSelf (Jul 20, 2013)

Itachi can show Ei how Bee dies, or something like that. However, i don't know how this would affect him other than making him sad and angry. But Ei was barely standing after a genjutsu coming from Madara. 

So who knows.


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## Bonly (Jul 20, 2013)

I believe that if A either was caught then they'd go down.


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## Ersa (Jul 20, 2013)

Rocky, everything in Tsukiyomi is under Itachi's control. He can most likely make the Raikage have extremely low pain tolerance.

Or honestly stabbing and burning them whilst showing them their family getting murdered again and again for 72 hours is sure to fuck with them.

The Raikage are not tanking it. Even if they do survive it, they'll be in no shape to fight Itachi. He can walk up to them and shove kunais through their eyes and into their brain and they'd be able to do jackshit.

Only people with MS/EMS/Rinnegan, Kyuubi and Juubi can brush off Tsukiyomi.


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Rocky, everything in Tsukiyomi is under Itachi's control. He can most likely make the Raikage have extremely low pain tolerance.



If this is the case, why do the Kyuubi & Juubui survive?


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## trance (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm sure Ei and his dad no doubt have incredible willpower and mental fortitude but every man has his limit and I believe Tsukuyomi can reach that limit. 

Kakashi is a hardened, veteran ninja yet was left bedridden.

Hidan might've been a better choice since he welcomes agonizing pain and is possibly insane but that's just IMO.


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## Ersa (Jul 20, 2013)

Kyuubi and Juubi are top tiers. (Kyuubi is debatable I suppose ), portrayal would say they would be better off tanking Tsukiyomi then people who get off-panelled or wrecked by clones.

Both can't really be mentally broken like the Raikage can. A combination of pain + mental stress should do it as far as I'm concerned. Nothing indicates the Raikage would have no reaction to seeing his brother die in front of his eyes.


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2013)

To me it's too common of a troupe in fiction where one form of Torture is said to break anyone, only for someone to will power through it for me to believe that no one can will power through Tsukuyomi. Now with that said i'm not sure the person to do it would be Raikage, however if someone like current Naruto was put in Tsukuyomi it really wouldn't surprise me if he WOF endured it, to give one example. Not saying it's confirmed, but considering how big of a troupe this is I think it's pretty foolish to assume it's impossible that someone would ever be able to endure Tsukuyomi


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## Sans (Jul 20, 2013)

The human mind is not built to withstand seventy two hours of unrelenting torture that's uninhibited by physical constraints.

Any pain tolerance feats from the manga are literally less than 1% of what Tsukiyomi could dish out, assuming Itachi either matched or exceeded that level of pain and inflicted it continuously for that time period.


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> The human mind is not built to withstand seventy two hours of unrelenting torture that's uninhibited by physical constraints.




These guys aren't normal humans though, correct?

I don't know any normal people that could amputate their limbs without reacting.


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## Antos (Jul 20, 2013)

Don't Forget he can read minds while tsukuyomi he doesn't have to inflict pain on you with that aid he would show bee being killed or tortured by Minato would work.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 20, 2013)

I'd imagine that their level of psychological endurance could more or less cover them for the level of resistance Part I Kakashi's Sharingan offered him. So...stay conscious for a couple minutes afterwards perhaps. And at least certainly not have their bodies shut down under extreme shock.


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## Sans (Jul 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> These guys aren't normal humans though, correct?
> 
> I don't know any normal people that could amputate their limbs without reacting.



There are some very impressive feats for human endurance, and of course shinobi far surpass them; I just feel nothing has compared to Tsukiyomi.

Let's assume that it takes six seconds for Ei's arm to get cut off (it's probably less), and that Itachi can't think of something more painful than that (he totally could).

Ei experiences that pain tenfold in one minute.

In an hour, he feels that arm being sliced off six hundred times. 

After the first day, that arm has been cut off continuously 14,400 times.

By the time Tsukiyomi has run its course, Ei has felt the pain of his arm being severed 43,200 times.

Ei's best pain tolerance feat equals 0.0023% of Itachi simply using that one scenario over and over. If he decided to douse Ei in the world's strongest acid for seventy two hours, I imagine it would be far, far, far more painful.

*Edit:* If Ei lopped his arm off in three seconds, then Itachi can subject him to it 86,400 times.

As Turrin said, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if certain characters used Heart to overcome the torture. But, until they do so, Tsukiyomi is far too horrifying for me to grant resistance to characters.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't think the Raikage would know when the technique is ending either. Unless Itachi told him inside the illusion I mean.

He'd basically be in the tsukiyomi and just not know when it's going to end. After the first one or two days of not knowing when its going to end.. it'd probably be devastating to a person's willpower if they were banking on just outlasting it. 

Itachi could just lie and say "You are now forever trapped in my infinite tsukiyomi" and the victim wouldn't be any the wiser.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Ei is much harder than Naruto.



He sure is ​​


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 20, 2013)

Raikage is prone to physical injuries. This is completely mental.


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## Winchester Gospel (Jul 20, 2013)

Orochimaru's body modification likely gives him some of the greatest resistance to pain in the manga, such that he could brush off both a punch from Tsunade and bifurcation at the claws of the Kyūbi. And yet he still finds Itachi a threat, and his disciple makes it a point to defend from genjutsu despite havng improved upon all of his master's jutsu, including his regeneration and healing factor.

I don't think our hypothetical visualization of how a genjutsu might take effect is meant to eclipse the overall affliction that it's meant to bestow upon the victim's mind. Given their immense strength, I don't think either Raikage would have much trouble snapping the threads of restraint used by Tayuya's flute song, or breaking free of the tree used in Kurenai's illusion were it a physical object. That doesn't necessarily translate to an inability to be paralyzed through genjutsu though.

Tsukuyomi does what it does, and that's breaking the mind and spirit of the person that's looked into Itachi's eyes. The databook goes out of its way to suggest that the technique can be tailored to an individual's psyche, and that material things such as the durability of one's body are of no consequence. That should eliminate the unique properties of skin and blood from the equation, and neither Raikage has shown any sort of innate resistance to mental damage or dimensional control.

And as for the Fourth Raikage severing his own arm, that isn't much beyond what ordinary people with non-shinobi thresholds have not only been forced to endure but power on through in times of great desperation. That doesn't translate to torture, and torture doesn't translate to Tsukuyomi, because that's not _just_ what it is—it's taking what each individual person can endure, and making a promise to go beyond it, and then doing it in a plane where the caster is god and their defenses mean nothing.



Trance said:


> Hidan might've been a better choice since he welcomes agonizing pain and is possibly insane but that's just IMO.



Hidan is definitely a psychopath, but I had always gotten the impression that he only fetishizes the pain shared with victims of his curse, and outside of that, he finds pain a hinderance just as any other person would. It's possible that he might have some resistance just as it's possible for the two Raikage, but from what we've seen, I don't think his psychology is far enough removed from the average human being to be granted immunity.


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## Ashi (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't think it's that hard to tank tsukuyomi if one has greater willpower


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## Joakim3 (Jul 20, 2013)

The only person who we could even realistically debate this argument with is Hidan due to his macocistic nature. Every other non Dojustu user is going down... and hard

Sure people like Kisame, Ei or other hee-men might be able to hold out longer but like others have said, Itachi's is essentiall god their, if he wants you to break, your breaking.


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## Ashi (Jul 21, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> The only person who we could even realistically debate this argument with is Hidan due to his macocistic nature. Every other non Dojustu user is going down... and hard
> 
> Sure people like Kisame, Ei or other hee-men might be able to hold out longer but like others have said, Itachi's is essentiall god their, if he wants you to break, your breaking.



I think people are overestimating the control of tsukuyomi if it where as great as people said then kakashi would've passed out immedeatily after getting hit plus I haven't seen it do anything to drastic so we really don't know the genjutsu's capabilities other than a dreamscape but people with high willpower can resist like ohnoki did against the pollen


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I think people are overestimating the control of tsukuyomi if it where as great as people said then kakashi would've passed out immedeatily after getting hit



Kakashi straight-up said Itachi had been holding Tsukuyomi back though, and Kakashi & Kisame said Itachi could kill with it. 

Besides, it did ultimately put Kakashi in a coma that he needed _Tsunade's treatment_ to overcome, so Itachi basically knew exactly how far to push Kakashi's mind before it broke completely.​


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2013)

Winchester Gospel said:


> Orochimaru's body modification likely gives him some of the greatest resistance to pain in the manga, such that he could brush off both a punch from Tsunade and bifurcation at the claws of the Kyūbi. And yet he still finds Itachi a threat, and his disciple makes it a point to defend from genjutsu despite havng improved upon all of his master's jutsu, including his regeneration and healing factor.
> 
> I don't think our hypothetical visualization of how a genjutsu might take effect is meant to eclipse the overall affliction that it's meant to bestow upon the victim's mind. Given their immense strength, I don't think either Raikage would have much trouble snapping the threads of restraint used by Tayuya's flute song, or breaking free of the tree used in Kurenai's illusion were it a physical object. That doesn't necessarily translate to an inability to be paralyzed through genjutsu though.
> 
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong. IIRC Hidan got completely hit by Kakuzu Futon, and showed absolutely no signs of pain. Could be mistaken though.


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## trance (Jul 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. IIRC Hidan got completely hit by Kakuzu Futon, and showed absolutely no signs of pain. Could be mistaken though.



Who knows how Hidan tanked that without being torn to shreds or even having the rest of his cloak torn off (it might've been to show his and Kakuzu's flawless teamwork or something along those lines).


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong. IIRC Hidan got completely hit by Kakuzu Futon, and showed absolutely no signs of pain. Could be mistaken though.



He definitely doesn't like pain when he isn't in his curse mode:



​


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## Ashi (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kakashi straight-up said Itachi had been holding Tsukuyomi back though, and Kakashi & Kisame said Itachi could kill with it.
> 
> Besides, it did ultimately put Kakashi in a coma that he needed _Tsunade's treatment_ to overcome, so Itachi basically knew exactly how far to push Kakashi's mind before it broke completely.​



If you say so but tsukuyomi isn't a killing technique it's used to incapacitate sure one could be mentally broken for awhile also kakashi was exhausted from using his sharingan before


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## Mr. sickVisionz (Jul 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The 4th or 3rd, argue for whichever.
> 
> I'm just curious, as Tsukuyomi focuses on breaking a victims spirit with forms of torture. That seems like it would be child's play to the very pain tolerant men that are the Raikage.



I think the really important aspect is if the Tsuku user can move around while the other person is entranced?  If they can, pain tolerance is irrelevant as the user could fatally wound the opponent in the real world while the victim is stuck in fantasy land.


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## Ashi (Jul 21, 2013)

Mr. sickVisionz said:


> I think the really important aspect is if the Tsuku user can move around while the other person is entranced?  If they can, pain tolerance is irrelevant as the user could fatally wound the opponent in the real world while the victim is stuck in fantasy land.



It lasts a second IRL so no not really


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## Jad (Jul 21, 2013)

Itachi may kill the person in the genjutsu and trick the brain into thinking the person is actually died. Which would actually, put the person in a coma, a vegetable state.

Everyone is thinking about torture, when Itachi could just simply kill the person in the genjutsu.


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