# Tsunade vs Itachi



## Beyonce (Dec 9, 2020)

Location: grassy field
Distance: 30m
Mindset: IC but with killing intent
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: No MS. No Katsuyu
Conditions: This is alive Itachi and you are only to use feats showcased from when he was alive.

r2: unrestrict katsuyu, tsukiyomi & amaterasu. Tsunade gets full knowledge.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Tsunade wins in the first round. Itachi can't take her down reliably, Genjutsu or otherwise.

Itachi wins in the second round.


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## Illusory (Dec 9, 2020)

Tsunade is a juggernaut whose strength is in her inability to be put down, but genjutsu IMO largely counteracts that advantage. With crow genjutsu or finger genjutsu, Itachi initiates a battle on his playing field that he would win.

Outside of that, I think Itachi’s advantage in speed, reflexes, and the ability to make clones (feints or otherwise) would also enable him to cut or punch Tsunade’s head off (with Itachi’s own CES feat) while evading Tsunade’s powerful but straightforward attacks. The DB also has Itachi knowing wind ninjutsu, so he likely has cutting attacks there as well (since that’s what wind does) if you don’t think a kunai would be sufficient. I think easily taking a hand with when much young with a kunai would translate into him taking a neck as an adult though.

In Byakugo, she is fairly fast (I personally consider her between base and v1 A4), but still not on Itachi’s speed tier IMO and his precognition sweetens the deal for him there. It would be like 3T Sasuke vs KN0, except Itachi is also faster than Tsunade whereas KN0 was way faster than Sasuke. So Itachi is in a good position.

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## Beyonce (Dec 9, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Outside of that, I think Itachi’s advantage in speed, reflexes, and the ability to make clones (feints or otherwise) would also enable him to cut or punch Tsunade’s head off (with Itachi’s own *CES* feat) while evading Tsunade’s powerful but straightforward attacks.


Huh?


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## Illusory (Dec 9, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> Huh?



It’s a novel feat. Kid Itachi (5) shatters a large boulder to save his mom’s life, presumably with a CES (chakra-enhanced-strike).

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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 9, 2020)

Tsunade makes my boy Itachi explode in Round 1

In round 2 she eats a 80 year Tsykuyomi and gains her blood phobia all over again



Illusory said:


> It’s a novel feat. Kid Itachi (5) shatters a large boulder to save his mom’s life, presumably with a CES.


Let's not start, illusory. Itachi's strength isn't releveant. Tsunade kills him in one punch here.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Beyonce (Dec 9, 2020)

Illusory said:


> It’s a novel feat. Kid Itachi (5) shatters a large boulder to save his mom’s life, presumably with a CES (chakra-enhanced-strike).


1. I should’ve made this clear but I am strictly speaking of Naruto material. I for one don’t use novel feats seeing as not everyone has access to them/have read them. Plus their validity as canon material is questionable.

2. Tsunade does not have Boulder level durability.


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## Illusory (Dec 9, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Let's not start, illusory. Itachi's strength isn't releveant. Tsunade kills him in one punch here.



Tsunade would kill Itachi if she tagged him in a critical area, yes. The same is true for SM Kabuto and KCM Naruto. But I doubt that would happen. And Itachi’s CES is very much relevant for when he strikes her, which precognition would enable.

Anyway, the OP asked to ignore novel feats so that point is moot. But I stand by the rest of my initial post and analysis.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 9, 2020)

Itachi wins both

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## Beyonce (Dec 9, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Tsunade would kill Itachi if she tagged him, yes. But I doubt that would happen. And Itachi’s CES is very much relevant for when he strikes her, which precognition would enable.
> 
> Anyway, the OP asked to ignore novel feats so that point is moot. But I stand by the rest of my initial post and analysis.


She tanked Madara’s Yasaka magatama point blank and smashed into a large boulder completely destroying it. And popped right back up like nothing happened. But sure, 5 year old CES Itachi is hitting her head off lmfao

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Illusory (Dec 9, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> She tanked Madara’s Yasaka magatama point blank and smashed into a large boulder completely destroying it. And popped right back up like nothing happened. But sure, 5 year old CES Itachi is hitting her head off lmfao



Did the Magatama hit her square in the forehead? Tsunade has a jutsu that makes bodily wounds less impactful. However, IMO, removing her head or catastrophically damaging the head/brain would largely nullify the jutsu.

If Itachi’s CES hit Tsunade straight in the skull as he hit the boulder (or better, since he’s not 5 here), I personally doubt Tsunade is “popping right back up” as she would if he hit her in the chest.

And in the context of the thread with adult Itachi, that would be further followed up with more attacks. So if Tsunade is temporarily decommissioned from her brain being bopped, even if it regenerates, it’s going to provide a window for more damaging follow-ups.

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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 9, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Did the Magatama hit her square in the forehead? Tsunade has a jutsu that makes bodily wounds less impactful. However, IMO, removing her head or catastrophically damaging the head/brain would largely nullify the jutsu.
> 
> If 5-year-old Itachi were allowed to hit Tsunade straight in the skill as he hit the boulder, I personally doubt Tsunade is “popping right back up” as she would if he hit her in the chest.


Bruh, ADULT Itachi scales below V1 A4 in physical strength  in feats. busting a boulder isn't impressive. Base Gai essentially can do that.
Tsunade scales above ABSOLUTE AYY in attack potency , and tanked the force of her own punches to a large extent, she only suffered internal damage at best, which was healed.

He would break his hand on Tsunade's forehead

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## Beyonce (Dec 9, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Did the Magatama hit her square in the forehead? Tsunade has a jutsu that makes bodily wounds less impactful. However, IMO, removing her head or catastrophically damaging the head/brain would largely nullify the jutsu.
> 
> If 5-year-old Itachi were allowed to hit Tsunade straight in the skull as he hit the boulder, I personally doubt Tsunade is “popping right back up” as she would if he hit her in the chest.


She smashed into the boulder behind her, it’s clear her head must’ve also been hit with it. And who gives a shit if YM hit her in the head or the body? The fact of the matter is it didn’t do shit to her. Her head while assumably weaker isn’t so weak that a fucking 5 year old Itachi is doing something remotely serious. You’re saying BoS Sakura punch can one shot her if it hits her head and that’s bullshit on all accounts.

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## Illusory (Dec 9, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Bruh, ADULT Itachi scales below V1 A4 in physical strength  in feats. busting a boulder isn't impressive. Base Gai essentially can do that.



Bruh, that was TODDLER 0T Itachi. This is ADULT MS Itachi that isn’t using MS techniques, but still has MS chakra. And for the record, I also think v1 A4 punching Tsunade in the skull would likewise be a win-condition. Or even base A4.

Or SM Kabuto. Or KCM Naruto. Or Bee. Or Jugo. I don’t think Tsunade wants to take big punches to the brain. I don’t think she’d instantly recover in time to be able to handle follow-up attacks if the opponent is sufficiently fast/aggressive. I think if they were bloodlusted, they would all follow-up with catastrophic attacks while she was dazed on the ground, setting her regeneration that much further back.

But personally, this is all moot anyway since I don’t see her functioning well with a kunai in the brain, or that she can overcome his genjutsu. The CES bit is fun to debate, but far from necessary.

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## Illusory (Dec 9, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> She smashed into the boulder behind her, it’s clear her head must’ve also been hit with it. And who gives a shit if YM hit her in the head or the body? The fact of the matter is it didn’t do shit to her. Her head while assumably weaker isn’t so weak that a fucking 5 year old Itachi is doing something remotely serious. You’re saying BoS Sakura punch can one shot her if it hits her head and that’s bullshit on all accounts.



I’m thinking if that single tomoe had hit her face instead of her stomach, she’d have died there, especially if Madara followed up with more attacks ASAP in a 1v1 where he was completely serious about killing her ASAP.

If Sakura has Itachi-level speed and punches Tsunade in the head and then immediately follows up with more attacks, yeah, I think Tsunade is toast. I don’t think that’s crazy in the slightest.

IMO it’s bullshit that Tsunade eating a single tomoe to the stomach is somehow supposed to translate to her tanking a CES, kunai, whatever to the skull so well that no offensive momentum can be generated from the hit.

Realistically, if Tsunade doesn’t die instantly, then she’s going to be dazed, regenerating, etc. plenty long enough for follow-up strikes to cement the match. It would be like a boxing match where a ref didn’t stop one guy from wailing on the other when he was on the ground temporarily KO’d.


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2020)

R1: Tsunade stomps.

she fought 5 Legged Susanoo with EMS & Rinnegan used by Madara. Only a retard would think that 3t itachi will somehow win, when
those clones couldn't defeat her.

R2: Tsunade still wins by hype and feats.
fighting Madara's clones is far more impressive than anything itachi has ever done. He is simply a water-downed version of madara in literally every single aspect.

Furthermore, Tsunade had already healed Tsokuomi's effect from Sasuke & Kakashi with the most basic of her medical power. It's a no brainer than her higher level jutsu (like Byakugo) can heal her just fine. Especially since it's automatically activated as well.

And we have seen her reflect fire from her body with her chakra, and Amaterasu is just fire at the end of the day. So, she deals with it
the same way.

Not to mention, she is a Senju who are portrayed to be stronger than the Uchiha
Hashirama > Madara
Tobirama > Izuna
and naturally,
Tsunade > itachi

which goes with how itachi has always been compared to the Sannin within the manga (Jiraiya & Oro).

So, yeah. Tsunade wins.

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## Francyst (Dec 9, 2020)

3T Itachi mid diffs both rounds while only using kunai and shuriken to attack


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Dec 9, 2020)

Itachi turns her into pink mist with his Bijuu level strength

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## Beyonce (Dec 9, 2020)

Illusory said:


> I’m thinking if that single tomoe had hit her face instead of her stomach, she’d have died there, especially if Madara followed up with more attacks ASAP in a 1v1 where he was completely serious about killing her ASAP.
> 
> If Sakura has Itachi-level speed and punches Tsunade in the head and then immediately follows up with more attacks, yeah, I think Tsunade is toast. I don’t think that’s crazy in the slightest.
> 
> ...


Then we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the CES portion. I find it bullshit and comical that Tsunade gets her head knocked off by base guy or bos sakura but the novel is besides the point

A kunai, however, isn’t doing shit to Tsunade either. I’m tempted to say it just bounces right off or breaks upon contact. Tsunade’s piercing/cutting durability is ~ Raikage seeing as she went through Mabui’s transportation (in which Mabui stressed only people with raikage level durability can go through) only sustaining mild injuries as opposed to be torn to literal shreds. I don’t see how a kunai is supposed to do shit to her.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

But why on earth would ''headshot GG'' be an answer to someone who's stated to be capable of regenerating any body part? 

Also, ''a single tomoe'' > all of those things you mentioned. The tomoe is made of Susano'o chakra.

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## Santoryu (Dec 9, 2020)

genjutsu +kunai slashes seal the deal

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## DaVizWiz (Dec 9, 2020)

Crow Bunshin feint into fireball ends this one 

Without the limbless, toothless, ultra slow blitzed by Manda great Katsuyu - Tsunade is hopeless

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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 9, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Bruh, that was TODDLER 0T Itachi. This is ADULT MS Itachi that isn’t using MS techniques, but still has MS chakra. And for the record, I also think v1 A4 punching Tsunade in the skull would likewise be a win-condition. Or even base A4.
> 
> Or SM Kabuto. Or KCM Naruto. Or Bee. Or Jugo. I don’t think Tsunade wants to take big punches to the brain. I don’t think she’d instantly recover in time to be able to handle follow-up attacks if the opponent is sufficiently fast/aggressive. I think if they were bloodlusted, they would all follow-up with catastrophic attacks while she was dazed on the ground, setting her regeneration that much further back.
> 
> But personally, this is all moot anyway since I don’t see her functioning well with a kunai in the brain, or that she can overcome his genjutsu. The CES bit is fun to debate, but far from necessary.


Tsunade breaks every genjutsu bar izanami and anything MS related 

She has bijuu tier chakra in Strength of hundred. 

She has far more chakra than BOS Base Naruto, far more than Orochimaru, far more than Deidara...

She negs his genjutsu, brah, if we combine that with the fact we know she has top tier chakra control, though it's unclear how much this plays a role.

All we know is Naruto was moulding up as much chakra as he could and sending it to his head until the genjutsu broke


I like how you assumed that Tsunade is just a punching bag that doesn't know how to guard her head lmao. Why did Madara fail to do this? he stabs her with swords multiple times AFTER learning she had hashirama level regen, and never did she get decapitated. She got hit in the chest or midsection, or was bisected first lol.  Decapitation is far less likely to happen than the aforementioned things.

Madara only had the chance to decap her AFTER bisecting her first lol.

And Tsunade Beats V2 Ayy, let alone V1 Ayy lmao.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> But why on earth would ''headshot GG'' be an answer to someone who's stated to be capable of regenerating any body part?



I don't think it's "GG" per se, but it's heavily implied that a severe injury at the least will result in fairly slow regeneration and restoration. I don't think limbs are severe enough, Tsunade would regrow those fairly quickly, and showed the vitality to survive while bisected for a prolonged time period even in base despite being low on stamina.

But, If a heads destruction isn't severe, then I don't know what is, as the next best thing is being blown to bits, and that would take EVEN LONGER and even more chakra to regen, so she would be vulnerable at the very least to further attack, if not past the threshold of death at this point.

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## Mawt (Dec 9, 2020)

Itachi uses the Sharingan to copy her strength and healing.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Love how @Santoryu can't defend Kakashi and Guy on Masters vs Summons threads so he instead chooses to spite the Sannin in other matchups lol. It's kinda sad to see. And this is coming from someone who prefers the Masters to the Sannin as characters and fighters.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Itachi uses the Sharingan to copy her strength and healing.



That's an interesting idea. I do wonder if the Sharingan couldn't copy that stuff lol.

The healing, likely not, but the strength...well, why not?

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## Mawt (Dec 9, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's an interesting idea. I do wonder if the Sharingan couldn't copy that stuff lol.
> 
> The healing, likely not, but the strength...well, why not?


Yeah, it's just CES at the end of the day so it honestly should be learnable (it's arguable that most ninja in the Narutoverse already use it).  

Tsunade would still be better at it than Itachi though since she has far more experience and a lot more Chakra to pump into her fists.

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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 9, 2020)

Mawt said:


> Yeah, it's just CES at the end of the day so it honestly should be learnable (it's arguable that most ninja in the Narutoverse already use it).
> 
> Tsunade would still be better at it than Itachi though since she has far more experience and a lot more Chakra to pump into her fists.


Every ninja uses CES. Rock Lee showed this in Early Chunin Arc. Tsunade/Sakura are just the best at the chakra control for it, and also have tons of chakra as you said to pump into it.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

I think Tsunade and Sakura's CES is basically a stronger version of what all ninja use. Think Raiton Shunshin to regular Shunshin.

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## Tanto (Dec 9, 2020)

Itachi low diff

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Tanto said:


> Itachi low diff



Nice joke, but no.


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## Tanto (Dec 9, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nice joke, but no


Itachi quite literally fondles her

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## Ameno Angel (Dec 9, 2020)

What is Itachi gonna do?
Amaterasu gets countered by anyone who can exert their chakra in a cloak like way which Tsunade demonstrates in the war arc.
Tsukiyomi gets countered by Katsuyu and her clones as a shield, if he cast it, Tsunade can simply break her out with chakra.
We all know Alive Itachi isn’t outlasting Tsunade.
3T Genjutsu is useless against her if she has her Yin Seal activated.
Kunai will shatter on impact with her, its like Danzo trying to stab humanoid susanoo with one, what’s is Itachi with a kunai going to do to Madara’s ribcage susanoo.
Tsunade will just outlast him in general.
Itachi>Orochimaru however Tsunade>Itachi and Orochimaru

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Tanto said:


> Itachi quite literally fondles her



Only in his dreams.

In reality, Tsunade breaks him down to pink mist.

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## Bonly (Dec 9, 2020)

Tsunade punches Itachi into red mist in round one as Itachi can't put her down for good with the MS while in round two Itachi will burn her down with Ama once he goes to use the MS jutsu


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## Tanto (Dec 9, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Only in his dreams.
> 
> In reality, Tsunade breaks him down to pink mist


Genjutsu GGs her both rounds

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Tanto said:


> Genjutsu GGs her both rounds



Neither round, actually.

Certainly not the first one.

Tsunade was able to heal Sasuke from Tsukuyomi and no amount of Genjutsu will allow Itachi to strike a death blow unless he has Amaterasu or Susano'o.

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## Tanto (Dec 9, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Tsunade was able to heal Sasuke from Tsukuyomi !1!1!1!1!1



Show me a feat of her resisting Genjutsu or breaking herself out of Genjutsu. This feat isn’t transferable to the battlefield.
Even if you argue she closes her eyes he can still catch her with finger Genjutsu. Genjutsu overrides the chakra flow. Even Kurenai a Genjutsu specialist still fell to Itachi. Not to mention she can’t break out of Tsukuyomi



Aegon Targaryen said:


> no amount of Genjutsu will allow Itachi to strike a death blow unless he has Amaterasu or Susano'o.



She’d be incapacitated and unable to fight. Itachi can just decap her. Kabuto was able to hurt her with Kunai, so can Itachi.

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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 9, 2020)

Round 1 goes to Tsunade easy. Round 2 goes to Itachi. I don’t think that Tsukuyomi would finish her off considering even her regular medical ninjutsu was able to heal its effects so Byakugou . While likely not portrayed to go down to Amaterasu I pretty much believe outside of an author written scenario she would lose to it if she has no way of not getting hit in the first place. His rib cage Susanoo would likely be destroyed with a punch like him. A full sized Susanoo could kill her if she stops using her brain and gets hit by the glowing sword without knowing what it does.


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## Phenomenon (Dec 9, 2020)

R1 definitely goes to Tsunade restricting Katsuya made no difference here.

R2 goes to Itachi Extreme diff without Susanoo.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 9, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> R1 definitely goes to Tsunade restricting Katsuya made no difference here.
> 
> R2 goes to Itachi Extreme diff without Susanoo.


Crow bunshin feint into fireball both rounds GG

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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 9, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Crow bunshin feint into fireball both rounds GG


Play possum until sucker punch GG


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## Phenomenon (Dec 9, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Crow bunshin feint into fireball both rounds GG


Fireball tanked into Kill Punch blitz.


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 9, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Round 2 goes to Itachi. I don’t think that Tsukuyomi would finish her off considering even her regular medical ninjutsu was able to heal its effects so Byakugou .


Medical ninjutsu isn't proven to be able to heal personality disorders or other mental ailments other than comatose and other forms neurological damage though. The latter is an issue of dead neurons, the former is an issue of neuron communciation. Byakago would heal Tskuyomi's effects in terms of restoring her from comatose, but it's implied it can't treat mental disorders, because why not use Mystical palm to heal her blood phobia and depression? Even in real life it works like that. Depression isn't cured by medicine, only treated. While being in a coma is something you can heal from even in real life. I don't think mitotic regeneration helps here...

Tsunade broke from seeing her loved ones die. So... Tsykuyomi which can range from 72 hours to 80 years, and all kinds of options for creativity in torture and, possibly even tapping into memories about Dan/Kawaki (given Itachi made Naruto have nightmares about 12 year old VOTE CS2 Sasuke, even though Itachi had never seen that version of Sasuke until Uchiha bros arc) , she could still end up in a state where she is unable to fight.

Kakashi nor Sasuke simply broke down to the point they got depression from their Tskykuyomi. But 72 hours of swords stabs isn't the same thing as 80 years of seeing loved ones die. 

It's technically a novel feat that he could do it for 80 years, but in the manga he is stated to be able to freely manipulate time by Danzo, so don't see why not. And even if we limit him to 3 days, with the right kind of traumatic images and sensations, he can still break Tsunade.


But ignoring that application, Tsykuyomi still beats her regardless, as he isn't limited to using it for trauma. He was gonna use it/used it for mind control on SM Kabuto anyway, and Tsunade doesn't have the pre-reqs to break Tskuyomi anyway. Once she is in his mind control the fight is over, as he can easily enact his win condition from there.





Phenomenon said:


> Fireball tanked into Kill Punch blitz.


I don't get what a Fireball is suppposed to do to Tsunade. She swatted away several of them on panel and healed lol, while low on chakra.

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## Illusory (Dec 9, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Tsunade breaks every genjutsu bar izanami and anything MS related



Nah, crow/finger genjutsu takes her down just as well. Kid Itachi crippled Orochimaru without the MS, so adult Itachi will have have a similar time with Tsunade, as Itachi IMO improved as he aged.



ThirdRidoku said:


> She has bijuu tier chakra in Strength of hundred. She has far more chakra than BOS Base Naruto, far more than Orochimaru, far more than Deidara...



Chakra _quantity_ doesn’t really matter for breaking genjutsu control. Hence Kurama and other tailed beasts being genjutsu bitches to those with vastly less chakra than themselves. Chakra quality is IMO the more relevant factor.



ThirdRidoku said:


> She negs his genjutsu, brah, if we combine that with the fact we know she has top tier chakra control, though it's unclear how much this plays a role.



Her chakra control is not superior to Orochimaru, whereas the DB lists her knowledge/proficiency in genjutsu as inferior to Orochimaru. So I imagine she’d be worse equipped to handle genjutsu than Orochimaru.



ThirdRidoku said:


> All we know is Naruto was moulding up as much chakra as he could and sending it to his head until the genjutsu broke



He wasn’t actually doing anything in reality. When he was snapped out of the genjutsu, he was just idly standing their sweating. He never actually made the seal.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I like how you assumed that Tsunade is just a punching bag that doesn't know how to guard her head lmao.



I mean, she could try. But she’s going to end up like KN0 did against 3T Sasuke. Except KN0 actually had a massive speed advantage, whereas Tsunade is actually slower than Itachi.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Why did Madara fail to do this? he stabs her with swords multiple times AFTER learning she had hashirama level regen, and never did she get decapitated.



It’s stated Madara is playing games. Am I to believe you don’t think Rinnegan Madara could kill Tsunade without PS?



ThirdRidoku said:


> And Tsunade Beats V2 Ayy, let alone V1 Ayy lmao.



I think she might beat base A4, but likely not v1, and definitely not v2. Although you thinking she beats v2 A4 at least makes it more understandable why you think she dominates Itachi here.

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## DaVizWiz (Dec 9, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Play possum until sucker punch GG


Can you play possum when you’re on fire? I say Itachi waits and watches her run around screaming until she doesn’t anymore, and there’s just a skinless stinky charred corpse on the ground, involuntarily vomits on the corpse due to the smell then he leaves.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 9, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Fireball tanked into Kill Punch blitz.


Since we’re getting into fanfic now I say flaming crow into mouth to set her insides on fire too GG

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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 9, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Can you play possum when you’re on fire? I say Itachi waits and watches her run around screaming until she doesn’t anymore, and there’s just a skinless stinky charred corpse on the ground, involuntarily vomits on the corpse due to the smell then he leaves.


So she dies from a simple fireball despite smacking away 4 that were way bigger than her? Hmmm quite a different take I suppose.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Tanto said:


> Show me a feat of her resisting Genjutsu or breaking herself out of Genjutsu.



Considering no Genjutsu can put Tsunade down anyway and nor can it give Itachi a window to do any lasting damage, I don't need to.



Tanto said:


> Not to mention she can’t break out of Tsukuyomi



I agree, but she doesn't have to. She can heal its after effects. Not sure why you think that feat isn't transferable to the battlefield - Tsunade is a medical ninja, her whole thing is to transfer medical techniques to the battlefield, that's her literal claim to fame, Maru.

This is also the woman who willed herself out of haemophobia, by the way. She can take a psychological beating and keep going.



Tanto said:


> Itachi can just decap her. Kabuto was able to hurt her with Kunai, so can Itachi.



Not if Tsunade's seal is still active, no.

Technically, Tsunade survived bisection even without her seal active for a prolonged period of time, so...

Yeah, Itachi can't do jack to her.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 9, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Medical ninjutsu isn't proven to be able to heal personality disorders or other mental ailments other than comatose and other forms neurological damage though. The latter is an issue of dead neurons, the former is an issue of neuron communciation. Byakago would heal Tskuyomi's effects in terms of restoring her from comatose, but it's implied it can't treat mental disorders, because why not use Mystical palm to heal her blood phobia and depression? Even in real life it works like that. Depression isn't cured by medicine, only treated. While being in a coma is something you can heal from even in real life. I don't think mitotic regeneration helps here...


Tsunade was able to heal the effects Tsukuyomi had on Kakashi and Sasuke with normal medical ninjutsu on panel. I never said anything about any type of disorder. Things like torture probably wouldn’t phase Tsunade as much and she had successfully healed her trauma about her brother and Dan seeing them die over and over is also probably something she has seen for years. If Tsunade manages to prevent herself from falling unconscious with Byakugou then it’s half the battle since the state Itachi is in after the fact may leave him open to being killed due to the massive toll it takes on him.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Tsunade broke from seeing her loved ones die. So... Tsykuyomi which can range from 72 hours to 80 years, and all kinds of options for creativity in torture and, possibly even tapping into memories about Dan/Kawaki (given Itachi made Naruto have nightmares about 12 year old VOTE CS2 Sasuke, even though Itachi had never seen that version of Sasuke until Uchiha bros arc) , she could still end up in a state where she is unable to fight.


I addressed this above all she has to do is manage to not fall unconscious from his genjutsu. I can see Byakugou healing potential damage while Tsunade is caught.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Kakashi nor Sasuke simply broke down to the point they got depression from their Tskykuyomi. But 72 hours of swords stabs isn't the same thing as 80 years of seeing loved ones die.


Above. 


ThirdRidoku said:


> It's technically a novel feat that he could do it for 80 years, but in the manga he is stated to be able to freely manipulate time by Danzo, so don't see why not. And even if we limit him to 3 days, with the right kind of traumatic images and sensations, he can still break Tsunade.


I’m not too sure about that. Her resiliency is top notch and due to the fact that she instantly healed it. It’s not far fetched to assume she does decent against it consider a lot of the danger comes from the after effects and not what a person has gone through themselves.


ThirdRidoku said:


> But ignoring that application, Tsykuyomi still beats her regardless, as he isn't limited to using it for trauma. He was gonna use it/used it for mind control on SM Kabuto anyway, and Tsunade doesn't have the pre-reqs to break Tskuyomi anyway. Once she is in his mind control the fight is over, as he can easily enact his win condition from there.


I disagree while alive he actually feels the toll his jutsu does the same can’t be said in death. He would have used an incredibly large amount of chakra. Even in part 1 it left him in a state where it was advisable that he not fight.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

If Tsunade can heal Sasuke from Tsukuyomi, she can heal herself from it. Keep also in mind that Tsunade's willpower is WAY higher than Sasuke's, given that she literally kicked haemophobia in the nuts and re-embraced the WoF when it meant saving Naruto.

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## Mawt (Dec 9, 2020)

3T Itachi vs Tsunade depends on her Genjutsu resistance. If it's good, she buries him. If not, she gets spanked.

R2 is a low-mid diff match in Itachi's favor. Amaterasu hard counters.


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 9, 2020)

No MS might actually lose, he's shorter on stamina.
MS glares and sends her to illusionary kitchen for 3 days.


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## Tanto (Dec 9, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Genjutsu will allow Itachi to strike a death blow unless he has Amaterasu or Susano'o.



So you admit Amaterasu takes her down.
Good.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Considering no Genjutsu can put Tsunade down


Youve yet to prove this.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> She can heal its after effects.


Above.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not sure why you think that feat isn't transferable to the battlefield


It has No feats on the battlefield. Itachi’s  3t Genjutsu or even finger Genjutsu chakra will override hers and prevent her from activating the seal and trying to break herself out.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Tsunade is a medical ninja, her whole thing is to transfer medical techniques to the battlefield,


Then show feats of her breaking herself out of Genjutsu on the battlefield 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> This is also the woman who willed herself out of haemophobia, by the way. She can take a psychological beating and keep going


Lol no. Tsukuyomi is unbreakable and he can control the amount of damage and the potency of the Genjutsu.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not if Tsunade's seal is still active, no


Oro was able to land some fatal blows on her. Itachi can do the same with his kunai. Her seal means jack if she’s in a Genjutsu.
Amaterasu also fucks her like you admitted.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Technically, Tsunade survived bisection


How  is she gonna fight itachi if she’s bisected.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, Itachi can't do jack to her

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 9, 2020)

Tanto said:


> So you admit Amaterasu takes her down.
> Good.



It can...provided Tsunade does nothing to impede it in any way.

Susano'o will kill her for sure though.



Tanto said:


> Youve yet to prove this.



You've yet to prove Genjutsu can one-shot someone who healed Tsukuyomi with a tap.



Tanto said:


> It has No feats on the battlefield



That's not an argument. How does ''being on the battlefield'' make a medical Nin_jutsu_ less effective? 




Tanto said:


> Itachi’s  3t Genjutsu or even finger Genjutsu chakra will override hers and prevent her from activating the seal and trying to break herself out.
> 
> Then show feats of her breaking herself out of Genjutsu on the battlefield
> 
> Lol no. Tsukuyomi is unbreakable and he can control the amount of damage and the potency of the Genjutsu



Cool, except I already said Tsunade isn't going to break out of it, she's going to tank it.



Tanto said:


> Oro was able to land some fatal blows on her



With his legendary fucking sword, and Tsunade healed from it easy.



Tanto said:


> Itachi can do the same with his kunai



And she heals from it too.

This is like saying Wolverine can be killed by a bullet because he can be wounded by one lol 



Tanto said:


> How  is she gonna fight itachi if she’s bisected



Feats of Itachi bisecting someone with a kunai?

Feats of Itachi being able to use Mokuton to stop Tsunade from stitching both halves together?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Phenomenon (Dec 10, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Since we’re getting into fanfic now I say flaming crow into mouth to set her insides on fire too GG


Tsunade proceeds to regrow whole body ala Perfect Cell.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 10, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Tsunade proceeds to regrow whole body ala Perfect Cell.


Not before Itachi casts finger genjutsu on the perfect cell, manipulating it into believing itself to be a crow’s testicular cell that fell out as it was making a fly-by, and as such, imperfect, as the cell is in disarray it actually does become imperfect when Itachi takes a leak on it, and perishes from the acidic properties of his inbred urine.

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## Speedyamell (Dec 10, 2020)

Tsunade takes both rounds handily. He needs totsuka to beat her.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Beyonce (Dec 10, 2020)

Tanto said:


> She’d be incapacitated and unable to fight. Itachi can just decap her. Kabuto was able to hurt her with Kunai, so can Itachi.



No, he can’t. Kabuto didn’t hurt her with a kunai. He cut .

A kunai is quite literally bouncing off or breaking upon contact of Tsunade. He has no means to kill her effectively in round 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Dec 10, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> He needs totsuka to beat her.


What totsuka? Itachi now cannot decapitate during genjutsu? pffffft.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 10, 2020)

Sakurse Ucharuno said:


> What is Itachi gonna do?
> Amaterasu gets countered by anyone who can exert their chakra in a cloak like way which Tsunade demonstrates in the war arc.
> Tsukiyomi gets countered by Katsuyu and her clones as a shield, if he cast it, Tsunade can simply break her out with chakra.
> We all know Alive Itachi isn’t outlasting Tsunade.
> ...


When does tsunade show she has a cloak in war arc? One not given to her by naruto but her own ... I’ll wait


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## Phenomenon (Dec 10, 2020)

Sakurse Ucharuno said:


> What is Itachi gonna do?
> Amaterasu gets countered by anyone who can exert their chakra in a cloak like way which Tsunade demonstrates in the war arc.
> Tsukiyomi gets countered by Katsuyu and her clones as a shield, if he cast it, Tsunade can simply break her out with chakra.
> We all know Alive Itachi isn’t outlasting Tsunade.
> ...


This is abc logic.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## blk (Dec 10, 2020)

Itachi wins both as even w/out the MS Tsunace cannot reliably fight against an enemy that she cannot look at and that is as fast as Itachi.

With the MS it's a curbstomp for obvious reasons.

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## FlamingRain (Dec 10, 2020)

Tsunade pops Itachi like a balloon as soon as she gets her hands on him in round 1.

The threat of Itachi's trickiness is negated by regeneration affording a wide increase of Tsunade's margin for error. If she can survive Tensō no Jutsu and Susano'o blades Itachi's elements and weapon skills aren't killing her, so even after he catches her in a Genjutsu she'll just take his free hit and keep going once the spell is broken. A defensive Itachi can still avoid her strikes for an extended period between his distractions and speed, but when the tools he has left to retaliate with simply won't bring her down it won't grant him the win.


Itachi takes around 2 because Amaterasu will burn longer than her regeneration keeps running and then she'll die. Katsuyu will require multiple shots, but shouldn't be too many for Itachi to accounting for the flames spreading.

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## Santoryu (Dec 10, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Love how @Santoryu can't defend Kakashi and Guy on Masters vs Summons threads so he instead chooses to spite the Sannin in other matchups lol. It's kinda sad to see. And this is coming from someone who prefers the Masters to the Sannin as characters and fighters.



So you're still unable to turn left?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 10, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> So you're still unable to turn left?


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## Tanto (Dec 10, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> provided Tsunade does nothing to impede it in any way.


Tell us how she’s gonna heal from eternal flames. Tsunade was hurt by Madara’s katon, Itachi’s Amaterasu fucks her, no amount of regeneration is saving her. Hell Itachi’s Amaterasu cucked Nagato’s cerebus, who could regen and survived narutos Odama rasengan which destroys on a cellular level.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Susano'o will kill her for sure though.


So then Itachi wins what’s the point of continuing.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You've yet to prove Genjutsu can one-shot someone who healed Tsukuyomi with a tap



I don’t need to. Given you’ve shown no feats proving she can survive the torture and anguish Itachi can put her through in Tsukuyomi.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's not an argument. How does ''being on the battlefield'' make a medical Nin_jutsu_ less effective?



She used the partner method to heal sasuke. She doesn’t have that here. Despite being a *Medical nin,* she sat there on the battlefield terrified having ptsd. Lmao she even needed shizune to console her. She doesn’t have that here. Itachi mindhaxes her and attacks her inside Tsukuyomi and outside.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Cool, except I already said Tsunade isn't going to break out of it, she's going to tank it


 Entertain us on how she’s going to tank it. Even Sakura who surpassed Tsunade, and had  better feats with byakugo still got mindhaxed by Sasuke’s Genjutsu. That proves Tsukuyomi mind
fucks her.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> With his legendary fucking sword, and Tsunade healed from it easy


Lmao, and Itachi negged Orochimaru at 11, meanwhile Tsunade couldn’t defeat him and needed help. Your point ?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Feats of Itachi bisecting someone with a kunai?
> 
> Feats of Itachi being able to use Mokuton to stop Tsunade from stitching both halves together


This is just laughable.

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## Zero890 (Dec 11, 2020)

Tsunade wins both rounds, she destroys in the first one and in the second Katsuyu solos.

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## Tanto (Dec 11, 2020)



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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 11, 2020)

Tanto said:


>

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kisame (Dec 11, 2020)

Itachi wins mid-diff unrestricted, loses high-diff when restricted from his MS and Tsunade lacks Katsuyu.

In the first scenario Itachi can't really put Tsunade down with his non-MS arsenal as Tsunade's regen is too good. She'll eventually tag him with her aoe and back him into a corner.

Unrestricted Itachi wins with any of his MS techniques. Tsunade successfully avoiding genjutsu because the Susano'o clones didn't put her in one isn't a sound argument when they didn't put any of the other 4 kage in genjutsu either (except distracted A4). The counters to Tsukiyomi have been made clear in the manga; Uchiha blood and dojutsu to break it or you avoid it. Healing the after effects/trauma of Tsukiyomi doesn't change that.

Amaterasu isn't a projectile so Tsunade can't punch it away.

Susano'o seals the deal as Totsuka bypasses all of Tsunade's defenses and Yata blocks all her offense if ever needed. Itachi also has superior portrayal.

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## Trojan (Dec 11, 2020)

Tanto said:


> Show me a feat of her resisting Genjutsu or breaking herself out of Genjutsu.


do you have a feat of itachi putting her in a Genjutsu?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

Tsunade murders him both rounds 
Madara of all people needed his Ms arsenal to defend himself and counter attack her and even that was not enough and people are expecting Itachi to do shit with 3T and a kunai ?  
Byakugo automatically disrurpts genjutsu, amaterasu gets punched away and with no susano to defend himself hes gonna get punched to redmist sooner or later

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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> She negs his genjutsu, brah, if we combine that with the fact we know she has top tier chakra control, though it's unclear how much this plays a role.


It is arguable that she can tank a genjutsu and even if she can the split second that she takes will be her death.


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> amaterasu gets punched away


Thats bs, she has no chakra cloak and her head will catch fire, followed by a kunai decapitation.


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 11, 2020)

I don’t know why this is even a thread 
 
5 tsunades still loose

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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Thats bs, she has no chakra cloak and her head will catch fire, followed by a kunai decapitation.


Yeah 5 susano clones failed at decapitating her but 3T Itachi will succeed with a kunai Kappa
She doesnt need a cloak as she already punched fire away, amaterasu just happens to be a hotter fire but its still fire

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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Yeah 5 susano clones failed at decapitating her but 3T Itachi will succeed with a kunai Kappa
> She doesnt need a cloak as she already punched fire away, amaterasu just happens to be a hotter fire but its still fire


There is nothing to punch unless she punches her own head in, Amaterasu will spawn where the user wishes and she has no speed feats to Shunshin away.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 11, 2020)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade pops Itachi like a balloon as soon as she gets her hands on him in round 1.
> 
> The threat of Itachi's trickiness is negated by regeneration affording a wide increase of Tsunade's margin for error. If she can survive Tensō no Jutsu and Susano'o blades Itachi's elements and weapon skills aren't killing her, so even after he catches her in a Genjutsu she'll just take his free hit and keep going once the spell is broken. A defensive Itachi can still avoid her strikes for an extended period between his distractions and speed, but when the tools he has left to retaliate with simply won't bring her down it won't grant him the win.
> 
> ...


What about fireball setting her on fire in round 1?


Lyren said:


> Tsunade murders him both rounds
> Madara of all people needed his Ms arsenal to defend himself and counter attack her and even that was not enough and people are expecting Itachi to do shit with 3T and a kunai ?
> Byakugo automatically disrurpts genjutsu, amaterasu gets punched away and with no susano to defend himself hes gonna get punched to redmist sooner or later


Madara casually Bunshin feinted Tsunade and 4 other kage in broad daylight why would he need MS

How can flaming embers that spawn by lighting the target on fire get punched away?


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> There is nothing to punch unless she punches her own head in, Amaterasu will spawn where the user wishes and she has no speed feats to Shunshin away.


1- releasing chakra and aiming her punch, headbutt or whatever into a different direction will result into the fire getting pushed away. Standard CES shockwave just like how she punched away Madaras fire which happens to be larger than just her arms lol

2- Hebi sasuke did, so why wouldnt Tsunade who could dance around 5 Madara susano clones and even trade blows with the real one?  what speed feats does Hebi Sasuke have for him to be able to aytacks in tandem with lightned v2 A4? None 



DaVizWiz said:


> Madara casually Bunshin feinted Tsunade and 4 other kage in broad daylight why would he need MS


And then he attacked her using susano (Ms), whats your point lol?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> 1- releasing chakra and aiming her punch, headbutt or whatever into a different direction will result into the fire getting pushed away. Standard CES shockwave just like how she punched away Madaras fire which happens to be larger than just her arms lol


The fire sticks and even A had to cut his hand off. And you keep comparing some fire Ninjutsu with the haxxed Amaterasu for no reason.




Lyren said:


> 2- Hebi sasuke did, so why wouldnt Tsunade who could dance around 5 Madara susano clones and even trade blows with the real one?  what speed feats does Hebi Sasuke have for him to be able to aytacks in tandem with lightned v2 A4? None


Really, are you really gonna pretend Itachi wasn't throwing the fight and actually wanted to kill Sasuke. 
Madara himself said that she was slower than A, also the Susanoos were just moving at human speeds fighting them shows her stength not her speed.


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> The fire sticks and even A had to cut his hand off. And you keep comparing some fire Ninjutsu with the haxxed Amaterasu for no reason.


Lol are you saying Madaras fire didnt/shouldnt stick on her body at all lmao ?
She literally punched it away and then it just disappeared because it was done through a chakra (cloak/release) on her hands as more clearly seen in the anime

Amaterasu is listed as KATON, it just happens to be hoter than ur usual fire style and holds no special treatment over it on that departement period



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Really, are you really gonna pretend Itachi wasn't throwing the fight and actually wanted to kill Sasuke.


Thats why he ended up hitting him lol? His plan was obviously burning Sasuke then absorbing the amaterasu back into his eyes 



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Madara himself said that she was slower than A


Being slower than A4 doesnt mean she is slow as he is literally comparing her to the fastest man in the shinobi world 
And even then she ended up attacking in tandem with LIGHTNED v2 A4 so at worst Madara was proven wrong featwise
Tsunade cant be constantly fast like Ay but she demonstrated the ability to move at top speeds at times
Using byakugo chakra for shunshin will result in a better speed

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 11, 2020)

Using anime which isn’t canon .... 
adorable


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Lol are you saying Madaras fire didnt/shouldnt stick on her body at all lmao ?
> She literally punched it away and then it just disappeared because it was done through a chakra (cloak/release) on her hands as more clearly seen in the anime
> 
> Amaterasu is listed as KATON, it just happens to be hoter than ur usual fire style and holds no special treatment over it on that departement period


I can't help but lol at Tsunde punching her own face, while another Ama spawns at her hands.
Itachi is >>> Tsunade in intelligence, Tsunade's own Sensei said it.
He isn't giving Tsunade a chance once she is occupied with punching herself to death. It will be a spam.



Lyren said:


> Being slower than A4 doesnt mean she is slow as he is literally comparing her to the* fastest man* in the shinobi world


Lol not even close.


Lyren said:


> And even then she ended up attacking in tandem with LIGHTNED v2 A4


By that logic Sakura must be as fast as Naruto/Sasuke right.



Lyren said:


> Tsunade cant be constantly fast like Ay but she demonstrated the ability to move at top speeds at times


Which top speed of her comes close to A, Minato's level?


Lyren said:


> Using byakugo chakra for shunshin will result in a better speed


Headcanon


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> I can't help but lol at Tsunde punching her own face, while another Ama spawns at her hands.
> Itachi is >>> Tsunade in intelligence, Tsunade's own Sensei said it.
> He isn't giving Tsunade a chance once she is occupied with punching herself to death. It will be a spam.
> 
> ...


Whatever, you are not even understanding HOW im saying Tsunade does counter the thing and I dont feel like explaining it or how byakugo amps speed over and over. I already said all what i had to say in my previous posts
But all you need to know is that Tsunade moved in tandem with lightned V2 A4 in the manga, so if the manga didnt convince you shes hella fast how can I ?


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Whatever, you are not even understanding HOW im saying Tsunade does counter the thing and I dont feel like explaining it or how byakugo amps speed over and over. I already said all what i had to say in my previous posts
> But all you need to know is that Tsunade moved in tandem with lightned V2 A4 in the manga, so if the manga didnt convince you shes hella fast how can I ?


You were't able to provide any evidence, moving in tandem does not means outspeeding or even matching their top speed.
Itachi can spam Amaterasu, how is she gonna deal with Amaterasu if it is already on her hands. Is she gonna run faster than Itachi can move his eyes (a 3T sharingan) and put out Amaterasu as well.
Also please post that moving in tandem panel so we can judge it in the correct context.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> 1- releasing chakra and aiming her punch, headbutt or whatever into a different direction will result into the fire getting pushed away. Standard CES shockwave just like how she punched away Madaras fire which happens to be larger than just her arms lol
> 
> 2- Hebi sasuke did, so why wouldnt Tsunade who could dance around 5 Madara susano clones and even trade blows with the real one?  what speed feats does Hebi Sasuke have for him to be able to aytacks in tandem with lightned v2 A4? None
> 
> ...


Point is an attack isn’t a defense

Madara never needed MS to “defend himself” from the likes of Tsunade, this is a guy who switched with a clone and blindsided tsunade while being attacked by the Gokage


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> You were't able to provide any evidence, moving in tandem does not means outspeeding or even matching their top speed.


Lol what ? 
She was literally matching A4 speed by attacking at the same time with him ....



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Itachi can spam Amaterasu,


Lol wrong, amaterasu is something that make him bleed and blind, he cant spam it  



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> how is she gonna deal with Amaterasu if it is already on her hands


By releasing a chakra shockwave like she countered Madaras fire..



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Also please post that moving in tandem panel so we can judge it in the correct context.


I dont remember the scans numbers but its when Tsunade decided to fight Madara and unleash byakugo, youre free to check it or the madara vs kages fight if you remember the chapter number 





DaVizWiz said:


> Madara never needed MS to “defend himself” from the likes of Tsunade, this is a guy who switched with a clone and blindsided tsunade while being attacked by the Gokage


Actually it was the real Madara who was hit but im too old to have this debate again sorry not sorry. 
Anyway Madara having the rinnegan and mokuton in base shits on your argument as both things are above Itachi skillset paygrade. If not for mokuton bunshins and susano Madara would have died during that instance 
Moreover, to injure Tsunade he ALWAYS relied on susano which still failed to kill her and you expect Itachi pulling that off with a kunai?

Reactions: Like 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> By releasing a chakra shockwave like she countered Madaras fire..


A chakra shockwave that won't effect her face and all, is that right.
How is that chakra shockwave gonna extinguish a fire that is already on her body ?
Which part of her body will emit this shockwave?




Lyren said:


> Lol wrong, amaterasu is something that make him bleed and blind, he cant spam it


A almost blind Itachi lit a forest on fire, he can certainly spam enough to engulf a human.



Lyren said:


> I dont remember the scans numbers but its when Tsunade decided to fight Madara and unleash byakugo, youre free to check it or the madara vs kages fight if you remember the chapter number


Well you'll have to do better than that else one might think the scan doesn't exists.

Also what is stopping Itachi from Izanaming her and then kill her whichever way he deems fit?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Lol what ?
> She was literally matching A4 speed by attacking at the same time with him ....
> 
> 
> ...


That’s canon, he would’ve died and so would virtually every other kage level if they’re being attacked by the Gokage

Madara was unarmed and I guess he could have torched Tsunade with a Katon but Mei may have saved her before she burned to death

Didnt need Susano for Tsunade though, proved he can easily outmaneuver her and then some as he clearly countered the assault of 5 kage and managed a flank attack on a kage to boot

The question is whether he needed MS to defend himself from Tsunade, he absolutely did not need it, not sure why you’re bringing up his assaults on Tsunade with Susano


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> A chakra shockwave that won't effect her face and all, is that right.
> How is that chakra shockwave gonna extinguish a fire that is already on her body ?
> Which part of her body will emit this shockwave?


She wont be attacking herself with the chakra shockwave but release it outside of her body
Just like how Naruto did with his cloak to repel Sasukes amaterasu
The fire will be repelled away and she will just regenerate the burned parts


here Tsunade moved before all 4 other kages could move an inch, another testament to her speed



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> A almost blind Itachi lit a forest on fire, he can certainly spam enough to engulf a human.


Except this human isnt stationary and waiting getting hit
This human also can shrugg off the burned parts worse case scenario
This human can punch the ground to distabilize Itachis amaterasu trajectory while his eyes are closed
This human can wear off her green jacket too 
Amaterasu has a trash record in battle and it was always negged upon its usage against any foe




KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Well you'll have to do better than that else one might think the scan doesn't exists.


I googled  and thats when the scan happens

Tsunade is nowhere to be seen when A4 starts attaxking Madara few meters away then ends up lansig her kick at the same time with A4 landing his punch.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> That’s canon, he would’ve died and so would virtually every other kage level if they’re being attacked by the Gokage
> 
> Madara was unarmed and I guess he could have torched Tsunade with a Katon but Mei may have saved her before she burned to death
> 
> ...


As if Katon is enough to kill Tsunade while she can force her way through it, punch it away or put Katsuyu as a meat shield anyway
He couldnt offer anything that could put Tsunade down for good even with legged susanos when she had her byakugo seal active
He used a feint but ended up needing Susano to kill her and YET FAILED.

When Tsunade punched away the fire he covered himself with susano before approaching her instead of using a weaker thing ffs

Reactions: Winner 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> She wont be attacking herself with the chakra shockwave but release it outside of her body
> Just like how Naruto did with his cloak to repel Sasukes amaterasu
> The fire will be repelled away and she will just regenerate the burned parts


How is that even a chakra shockwave, seems to be pressurised air that Gai uses.


Lyren said:


> here Tsunade moved before all 4 other kages could move an inch, another testament to her speed


The other Kage were waiting for Mei to try her crap. Implying that Tsunade can blitz A is just laughable.



Lyren said:


> Tsunade is nowhere to be seen when A4 starts attaxking Madara few meters away then ends up lansig her kick at the same time with A4 landing his punch.


How does it shows the attack lands at the same time, A and Onoki are not even in the frame, she is that slow.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> As if Katon is enough to kill Tsunade while she can force her way through it, punch it away or put Katsuyu as a meat shield anyway
> He couldnt offer anything that could put Tsunade down for good even with legged susanos when she had her byakugo seal active
> He used a feint but ended up needing Susano to kill her and YET FAILED.
> 
> When Tsunade punched away the fire he covered himself with susano before approaching her instead of using a weaker thing ffs


If she’s lit on fire she will die

Cant punch away a streaming wave of flames, you don’t seem to understand the difference between great dragon fire and other Katons, one is a solid projectile most other Katons like Madara’s two others are just flames spreading across a surface area

None of this is relevant to the fact that he didn’t need MS to defend himself from Tsunade. He needed only a clone to defend himself against the assault of the entire Gokage, so you’re an idiot if you think he needs MS to survive just Tsunade


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> How is that even a chakra shockwave, seems to be pressurised air that Gai uses.
> 
> The other Kage were waiting for Mei to try her crap. Implying that Tsunade can blitz A is just laughable.
> 
> ...


Concession accepted

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> If she’s lit on fire she will die
> 
> Cant punch away a streaming wave of flames, you don’t seem to understand the difference between great dragon fire and other Katons, one is a solid projectile most other Katons like Madara’s two others are just flames spreading across a surface area


Her arms were supposed to be lit on fire as well when they came into contact with the fire ball dragons but here we are  
She can just force her way through the fire style then extinguish the burned parts by repelling them away. Giving the katon the same treatment she did to fire balls just on a full body scale ^_^ 



DaVizWiz said:


> None of this is relevant to the fact that he didn’t need MS to defend himself from Tsunade. He needed only a clone to defend himself against the assault of the entire Gokage, so you’re an idiot if you think he needs MS to survive just Tsunade


Except he did. When he did not use susano as defense he was FORCED into using a wood clone to survive the kages assault 
He is nothing to Tsunade with just his base skillset since she stalemated 5 of his legged susanos for hours  
Or are you gonna argue base Madara > Madara with susano?

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## DaVizWiz (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Her arms were supposed to be lit on fire as well when they came into contact with the fire ball dragons but here we are
> She can just force her way through the fire style then extinguish the burned parts by repelling them away. Giving the katon the same treatment she did to fire balls just on a full body scale ^_^
> 
> 
> ...


I’m not sure running through great flame destruction is going to prevent her from being set on fire lol

He didn’t use Susano because he didn’t need MS to defend against the Gokage

I just told you he bunshin feinted 5 kage while they were attacking him, why would you possibly believe Tsunade alone could contend with that? Do you think Tsunade can get away from Gokage 5v1 and flank one while doing it? No. No she cannot. Because she’s fodder to even 3T Madara  Thats why she got tricked and flanked by him even when Madara was fighting 4 other kage too


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> I’m not sure running through great flame destruction is going to prevent her from being set on fire lol


Then what ? 
She extinguished the flames that touched her off her arms 
She will just need to waste more chakra to extinguish it from other burned parts : simple shit.
Accumulating chakra and releasing it (how ces works according to kaakshi) the moment the fire touches her might even grant her to leave out unharmed seeing how Naruto chakra cloaks completely negged both Obitos and Madara katon 



DaVizWiz said:


> I just told you he bunshin feinted 5 kage while they were attacking him,


He feinted them when Gaara thought he already sealed him 
Madara was CORNERED into using a clone because he had no other choice and that wouldnt have been possible if not for edo regen. It wasnt something he planned from the begginig otherwise he wouldnt be embarassed when Tsunade said they cornered him into using a mokuton bunshin.
When Tsunade exploded his body, edo regen was showing up and thats not how wood clones vanish as seen with Hashiramas case when Madara pierced his dopplegangers. So the clone swap happened after Gaara covered Madaras body with sand.
A Madara restricted to V3/V4 susano with rinnegan and edo regen needed mokuton to survive gokage attacking him, he didnt just do it because he didnt NEED MS. What a very smart assesement on your part


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

So until showing panels of Madara outmaneuvring Tsunade without the use of susanos, concession accepted too

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Then what ?
> She extinguished the flames that touched her off her arms
> She will just need to waste more chakra to extinguish it from other burned parts : simple shit.
> Accumulating chakra and releasing it (how ces works according to kaakshi) the moment the fire touches her might even grant her to leave out unharmed seeing how Naruto chakra cloaks completely negged both Obitos and Madara katon
> ...


She barely touched them as she was punching them away from her

Itachi wasn’t set ablaze when his arm was briefly exposed to the dragon katon either

In the instance of being hit full on by Madara’s other Katons she would be set fully ablaze and no you don’t just flex your chakra and your not on fire anymore, what the hell kind of star reach voodoo are you playing at lol

Clone swap occurred prior to Madara being hit, and no one noticed, you can’t swap with a clone when you’re already captured what the hell manga are you reading

And to be clear under no circumstance is Tsunade alone cornering Madara, it took the Gokage to produce the need for a bunshin feint, Tsunade is not the Gokage so Madara doesn’t even need the clone feint to “defend himself” from Tsunade lmao

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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> In the instance of being hit full on by Madara’s other Katons she would be set fully ablaze and no you don’t just flex your chakra and your not on fire anymore, what the hell kind of star reach voodoo are you playing at lo


Then you are free to explain how the fire that was clearly seen on Tsunades hands magically disappeared ^_^



DaVizWiz said:


> Clone swap occurred prior to Madara being hit, and no one noticed, you can’t swap with a clone when you’re already captured what the hell manga are you reading


Blame Kishi not me 
The Madara that was hit by Tsunade showed no wood clone characteristics like Hasbiramas and strated regenerating the moment she hit him
Then its said he was cornered into using a mokuton bunshin to survive





DaVizWiz said:


> Madara doesn’t even need the clone feint to “defend himself” from Tsunade lmao


He will be eventually punched to red mist by her
She already showed comparable speed to his susano sword strike when she was about to be knocked out and Dan woke her up
Thanks for playing

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## blk (Dec 11, 2020)

How is this still going? There is no version of Tsunade that can defeat any version of Itachi, ever.... 

Her speciality is medical support not 1on1 fighting.

Keep up with the canon peeps

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 2


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## Beyonce (Dec 11, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> How does it shows the attack lands at the same time, A and Onoki are not even in the frame, she is that slow.


You can literally see Raikage's coat still behind Madara. You being loud and wrong.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 4


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 11, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Concession accepted





Beyonce said:


> You can literally see Raikage's coat still behind Madara. You being loud and wrong.


And she already has a head start

With Madara on panel saying she is slower

Reactions: Funny 3 | Dislike 1


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## Lyren (Dec 11, 2020)

If anything Madara was just proven wrong, what the fuck are you on for real? 
Tsunade isnt constantly faster or as fast as A4 but she can coordinate attacks in tandem with his full speed at times when she uses max shunshin 
She showed her ability to do that after Madaras statement about her speed.

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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 12, 2020)

Lyren said:


> If anything Madara was just proven wrong, what the fuck are you on for real?
> Tsunade isnt constantly faster or as fast as A4 but she can coordinate attacks in tandem with his full speed at times when she uses max shunshin
> She showed her ability to do that after Madaras statement about her speed.


Ok then show that she starts after or at the same time as Raikage, we already have a panel of her getting a head start. You are the one trying to make her look like a speedster.

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## Gin Ichimaru (Dec 12, 2020)

Genjutsu gg


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## dergeist (Dec 12, 2020)

It could be a tie, if Tsunade angles her rack properly it reflects the light of the MS back at Itachi and may Ko him.

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## MHA massive fan (Dec 12, 2020)

blk said:


> How is this still going? There is no version of Tsunade that can defeat any version of Itachi, ever....
> 
> Her speciality is medical support not 1on1 fighting.
> 
> Keep up with the canon peeps


Bruh I am shocked

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (Dec 12, 2020)

blk said:


> How is this still going? There is no version of Tsunade that can defeat any version of Itachi, ever....
> 
> Her speciality is medical support not 1on1 fighting.
> 
> Keep up with the canon peeps



WA Tsunade has 30/70 odds against 5-year-old Itachi IMO.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Dec 12, 2020)

blk said:


> How is this still going? There is no version of Tsunade that can defeat any version of Itachi, ever....
> 
> Her speciality is medical support not 1on1 fighting.
> 
> Keep up with the canon peeps



We were told _in canon_ that medical specialist status does not preclude frontline fighting skill and it was even by Tsunade herself.

This objection to her supposed fighting prowess based on her resumé as a healer needs to go. You'd think a board that talks about versatility so much would have an easy time grasping the concept of multi-skilled individuals.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 12, 2020)

FlamingRain said:


> We were told _in canon_ that medical specialist status does not preclude frontline fighting skill and it was even by Tsunade herself.
> 
> This objection to her supposed fighting prowess based on her resumé as a healer needs to go. You'd think a board that talks about versatility so much would have an easy time grasping the concept of multi-skilled individuals.


But she showed medical ninjitsu and straight forward linear TAIJUTSU 
Even when Said TAIJUTSU failed her solution ... keep failing 
Where is the versatility ?


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## FlamingRain (Dec 12, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> But she showed medical ninjitsu and straight forward linear TAIJUTSU
> Even when Said TAIJUTSU failed her solution ... keep failing
> Where is the versatility ?



That's beside the point I was making and you know it. I also know that you know it, so go pretend you're that clueless with somebody else.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 12, 2020)

FlamingRain said:


> That's beside the point I was making and you know it. I also know that you know it, so go pretend you're that clueless with somebody else.


 
Sure versaaatiiiliity.....


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 12, 2020)

No matter how many times I take breaks from this place and come back every few months I'm still always baffled at some people's opinions here. How anyone thinks 3T Itachi's basic arsenal is even remotely a threat to SoH Tsunade is beyond me. His basic fireballs, water jutsu, and shurikens are a non threat to her entirely. Not to mention she could easily release herself from any genjutsu he puts her in anyway. If Orochimaru was gonna release himself then obviously Tsunade can given she has much better chakra control.

Tsunade could tango with Madaras Susanoo clones for a while and people really think basic 3T genjutsu and kunais will enable Itachi to not only beat her but beat her with ease lol. I just don't get it, there's nothing he can do to her.

Reactions: Winner 6 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Beyonce (Dec 12, 2020)

Illusory said:


> WA Tsunade has 30/70 odds against 5-year-old Itachi IMO.


5 year old Tsunade shit diffs 3T Itachi as per Hashirama statement. IMO of course 



blk said:


> How is this still going? There is no version of Tsunade that can defeat any version of Itachi, ever....


Still have yet to see you show me how Itachi is doing shit to tsunade without MS.


blk said:


> Her speciality is medical support not 1on1 fighting.
> 
> Keep up with the canon peeps




_"Tsunade: Her power is like that of a god of war." - Databook 2

"Tsunade’s vows to devote all of herself including her own life in order to fulfill her mission, are channeled into strength which uphold her. She who was adulated as the Sannin, *the strongest ninja who put fear into the hearts of enemies far away*, is once more revived!” - Databook 2_

_“A lonely blossom that flowered in Konoha! *Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru. *Her whereabouts – indeed, her survival – are currently a mystery, but her name blossoms in the noble inclusion of the shinobi.”_​- *The Naruto Secret: Scroll of Soldiers Official Fanbook by Masashi Kishimoto*​



Indeed. Read the fucking canon

Reactions: Like 5


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## Beyonce (Dec 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No matter how many times I take breaks from this place and come back every few months I'm still always baffled at some people's opinions here. How anyone thinks 3T Itachi's basic arsenal is even remotely a threat to SoH Tsunade is beyond me. His basic fireballs, water jutsu, and shurikens are a non threat to her entirely. Not to mention she could easily release herself from any genjutsu he puts her in anyway. If Orochimaru was gonna release himself then obviously Tsunade can given she has much better chakra control.
> 
> Tsunade could tango with Madaras Susanoo clones for a while and people really think basic 3T genjutsu and kunais will enable Itachi to not only beat her but beat her with ease lol. I just don't get it, there's nothing he can do to her.


Just a normal day on NF. Itachi fans have been riding his dick for so long you'd think they have an endless supply of lube

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Lewd 1


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## blk (Dec 12, 2020)

FlamingRain said:


> We were told _in canon_ that medical specialist status does not preclude frontline fighting skill and it was even by Tsunade herself.
> 
> This objection to her supposed fighting prowess based on her resumé as a healer needs to go. You'd think a board that talks about versatility so much would have an easy time grasping the concept of multi-skilled individuals.



Compared to Jonins sure. 

But to bona fide High Kages and above? Tsunade has nothing. 



Beyonce said:


> 5 year old Tsunade shit diffs 3T Itachi as per Hashirama statement. IMO of course
> 
> 
> Still have yet to see you show me how Itachi is doing shit to tsunade without MS.
> ...



Those are mostly hyperboles.

It's a fact that Tsunade is incredibly lackluster compared to most of the other Kages in terms of Ninjutsu & abilities purely made for battle.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## FlamingRain (Dec 12, 2020)

blk said:


> Compared to Jonins sure.
> 
> But to bona fide High Kages and above? Tsunade has nothing.



No not compared to Jōnin. Period. Too many people like yourself think we need to look at Tsunade's overall apparent level and then subtract however much for fighting prowess because she's a medic. You don't. Certainly not when many of those medical support techniques can be reapplied for offensive use and Tsunade was a fighter _first_. She was never more of a doctor than a warrior- she just turned into a dual-purpose unit and grew in both aspects together. Just like her knowledge in that field lets her heal allies it lets her heal herself, induce sleep, throw-off motor functions, split things apart and crush things into dust. Tsunade became stronger than ever before once she took up medical practices, and when it came time to train Sakura she did not merely ensure whatever pre-existing skill she had remained while she improved in medical Jutsu she made sure Sakura became _more powerful_.



blk said:


> Those are mostly hyperboles.
> 
> It's a fact that Tsunade is incredibly lackluster compared to most of the other Kages in terms of Ninjutsu & abilities purely made for battle.



>Madara calls Tsunade weak _knowing that she is a Kage_
>Madara _takes that comment back_ after she attacks him
>He does it without knowing about her regen
>He does it without knowing about her summon

but she's "factually" a lackluster Kage...

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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 12, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> So you're still unable to turn left?



if i turned left, would that stop me from slapping you in threads to the point you talk shit on my name on discord?

the amount of salt tho

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 12, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Then you are free to explain how the fire that was clearly seen on Tsunades hands magically disappeared ^_^
> 
> 
> Blame Kishi not me
> ...


I already told you, she punched the constructs away before they could ignite her, we’ve seen the same technique catch Itachi’s arm and not light him ablaze, this technique is not like a spreading wave of flames like Madara’s other two Jutsu that would indeed set her completely on fire if she was caught in it’s path

It doesn’t matter what characteristics it showed it is impossible to switch with a clone after you’ve already been hit by an attack or captured, that simply did not happen

No he won’t, he wasn’t touched by most of the combined assaults from the Gokage, the notion that Tsunade alone can do anything to pressure Madara is absurd, she wouldn’t last a second against the combined assault of the Gokage and she is in no way comparable to that team get your shit together man the guy legitimately had Onoki second guessing whether the team could even land an attack on him mid battle

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## Phenomenon (Dec 12, 2020)

At the end of the day Itachi needs his MS to defeat Tsunade it's hopeless to think otherwise.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 12, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Crow bunshin feint into fireball both rounds GG



maru, if you keep posting using this account, i will have no choice but to unveil my temporary mod powers to ban you.

you should be proud and leave this account, how lewd must you be to post on the profile of your own dupes?


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 12, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Tsunade was able to heal the effects Tsukuyomi had on Kakashi and Sasuke with normal medical ninjutsu on panel. I never said anything about any type of disorder. Things like torture probably wouldn’t phase Tsunade as much and she had successfully healed her trauma about her brother and Dan seeing them die over and over is also probably something she has seen for years. If Tsunade manages to prevent herself from falling unconscious with Byakugou then it’s half the battle since the state Itachi is in after the fact may leave him open to being killed due to the massive toll it takes on him.


And I didn't say anything about her being unable to heal comatose. What I said is the inability to heal mental disorder, which is completely different. we have seen ninjas aren't any more resilient to trauma and wavering will than real humans (Kakashi breaking down and losing will when he realized Tobi was Obito, Tsunade from Dan/Kawaki's death, etc).

It's like saying tsunade/ Sakura could have healed Obito's trauma and the resultant change in personality from rin's death with medical ninjutsu. It just isn't a thing in the real world ( at least not yet) nor has that been shown in the manga. Medical ninjuutsu heals physical  damage to the mind or body, not  negative impacts on one's personality.

Her ability to heal Sasuke and Kakashi was  because like I said, they didn't suffer any personality disorders from Tskuyomi, only comatose.   So it's a false equivalence.  Comatose and mental disorder could be made as a dual package depending on the duration of Tsykuyomi, and the sensations and images shown. It's power isn't a static property. We are told in the 2nd  databook Tskuyomi's efficacy depends on the images shown.

So just because Sasuke/Kakashi only had to deal with comatose, doesn't mean any and all other victims would be so lucky  or resilient enough to resist a personality disorder from it's effects. There is no proof Tsunade healed any mental disorders they recieved, as Sasuke went to bed immediately from Tskuyomi, while Kakashi was still awake, but clearly had nearly full mental faculities despite his poor state, he could reason and hold conversation, he showed no signs of depression, just fatigue and neuron damage were his only shown  symptoms. But that's JUST HOW  KAKASHI could hold up against THAT specific Tskuyomi illusion.





SakuraLover16 said:


> disagree while alive he actually feels the toll his jutsu does the same can’t be said in death. He would have used an incredibly large amount of chakra. Even in part 1 it left him in a state where it was advisable that he not fight.


Lol no. It took a toll on him after wasting 50 percent of his chakra with exploding shadow clone  and casting two times with massive time dilation, and amaterasu plus the other techs he used.  What I'm saying is, he can dilate time very insignificantly or remove it all together, since he is explicitly stated to control the time passage however he likes, as per his own description and Danzo's descriptuion of the techniquw.

Itachi casted it without time dilation to control Kabuto and make him spill the beans on Edo Tensei, and also used it against  EMS Sasuke without any time dilation  as a partner method ( as the Tskuyomi  lasted as long as it took for Kabuto's hydra to reach Sasuke, and all that happened in Tskuyomi in parallel was Itachi freeing Sasuke  from the snakes in the illusion), proving he can  cast it just fine without dilating time. The time passage between the genjutsu and real world was equal or greater in the real world in both cases.

He casted it the same way against Hebi Sasuke as well. He kept Sasuke in the genjutsu long enough for his real world-crows to fly away, for Black Zetsu to react from outside the illusion, and for Sasuke to lift his hands from waist level to head level, since Sasuke's hands are on his left eye when he was freed from the genjutsu, when it wasn't when he entered the illusion, and Zetsu clearly reacts to Sasuke losing his eye in the genjutsu, so it makes sense he would have seen Sasuke lifting up his hand to his eye, and reacted to that, and why when the illusion is dispelled we see Sasuke holding his left eye, with his head planted down into his left hand.

He clearly had him trapped in it for several manga pages.

So no, Itachi can control her with Tskuyomi, and can use it for mind control, so she isn't breaking out , if he uses it like a normal but potent MS Genjutsu. Sharingan plus bloodline or bust here.



SakuraLover16 said:


> I addressed this above all she has to do is manage to not fall unconscious from his genjutsu. I can see Byakugou healing potential damage while Tsunade is caught.


Healing comatose =/=healing personality disorders or depression.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Things like torture probably wouldn’t phase Tsunade as much and she had successfully healed her trauma about her brother and Dan seeing them die over and over is also probably something she has seen for years. If Tsunade manages to prevent herself from falling unconscious with Byakugou then it’s half the battle since the state Itachi is in after the fact may leave him open to being killed due to the massive toll it takes on him.


If he does use Tskuyomi this way, Seeing Dan/Kawaki die for one day is nothing compared to seeing it happen for 80 years, with no hope of escaping.  There is a difference between remembering a bad event for many years, and being forced to experience said traumatic event over and over directly, for many years.




Illusory said:


> Nah, crow/finger genjutsu takes her down just as well. Kid Itachi crippled Orochimaru without the MS, so adult Itachi will have have a similar time with Tsunade, as Itachi IMO improved as he aged.





Illusory said:


> Chakra _quantity_ doesn’t really matter for breaking genjutsu control. Hence Kurama and other tailed beasts being genjutsu bitches to those with vastly less chakra than themselves. Chakra quality is IMO the more relevant factor.


Wrong. We see Naruto moulding up a shit ton of chakra to break genjutsu, no different than Tayuya/Naruto elevating to KCM/or Kinkaku rasiing chakra levels to break shadow poession.

bijuus are an exception to the rule because we are told any MS user can beat them, it's their kryptonite like Mokuton is.




Illusory said:


> He wasn’t actually doing anything in reality. When he was snapped out of the genjutsu, he was just idly standing their sweating. He never actually made the seal.


And you know that how??? We don't get a side by side view of the genjutsu versus what's happening in reality. So no, he was also casting it in the real world, but the dust he was kicking up settled by the time he was broken out. don't forget that Itachi stopped him from moulding chakra effectively after showing the images of Team 7. So, after that, Itachi stopped his real body from weaving seals as well. But chiyo and sakura noticed Naruto's odd behavior and broke him out. Simple.

In order to break a genjutsu ( which Itachi admitted Naruto was doing well) you must mould chakra to your actual brain.

Genjutsu of the kind Itachi casted is no different than a lucid dream. Some of Naruto's dream world actions aren't reflected in the body, but in order for Genjutsu Kai to be a viable way of breaking genjutsu, then attempts to cast genjutsu : Kai in the dream world must be uninhibited . As in if the brain imagines itself casting genjutsu Kai : in the dream/illusion, then the same signals are also manifested in the actual victim's body, the spinal cord and chakra network aren't inhibited and replicate what the dreamworld body of the victim is doing.

If you have ever dreamed, you would know a dream that is vivid and/or lucid feels like the real thing. Your brain thinks it's reality, it's just that the spinal cord inhibits your real body from replicating those actions you take in the dream in your actual muscles. But in REM Sleep disorder, your spinal cord is unable to inhibit these messages, so your body acts out what you are dreaming.

That's exactly how you are supposed to think of genjutsu.


Illusory said:


> It’s stated Madara is playing games. Am I to believe you don’t think Rinnegan Madara could kill Tsunade without PS?


He could, just not with 5 Susano'o wood clones doing nothing but kenjutsu.




Illusory said:


> I think she might beat base A4, but likely not v1, and definitely not v2. Although you thinking she beats v2 A4 at least makes it more understandable why you think she dominates Itachi here.


She does dominate Itachi if MS is restricted

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 12, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> And I didn't say anything about her being unable to heal comatose. What I said is the inability to heal mental disorder, which is completely different



well, all tsunade need to worry about is the comatose part here. 

having a mental disorder won't stop tsunade from winning.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Dec 12, 2020)

Itachi is stronger than her, he swapped hands with sage kabuto and kcm naruto. He redmists her

Also he likely has better regen as well, given how long he lasted with coronavirus AND the blindness of MS. Any punch Tsunade hits him with gets regened

MS not needed

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 12, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> And I didn't say anything about her being unable to heal comatose. What I said is the inability to heal mental disorder, which is completely different. we have seen ninjas aren't any more resilient to trauma and wavering will than real humans (Kakashi breaking down and losing will when he realized Tobi was Obito, Tsunade from Dan/Kawaki's death, etc).


She doesn’t need to heal any mental disorders I don’t really see what that has to do with anything.


ThirdRidoku said:


> It's like saying tsunade/ Sakura could have healed Obito's trauma and the resultant change in personality from rin's death with medical ninjutsu. It just isn't a thing in the real world ( at least not yet) nor has that been shown in the manga. Medical ninjuutsu heals physical damage to the mind or body, not negative impacts on one's personality.


I never argued such...


ThirdRidoku said:


> Her ability to heal Sasuke and Kakashi was because like I said, they didn't suffer any personality disorders from Tskuyomi, only comatose. So it's a false equivalence. Comatose and mental disorder could be made as a dual package depending on the duration of Tsykuyomi, and the sensations and images shown. It's power isn't a static property. We are told in the 2nd databook Tskuyomi's efficacy depends on the images shown.


I’m not worried about personality disorders because the main threat of the jutsu is falling unconscious.


ThirdRidoku said:


> So just because Sasuke/Kakashi only had to deal with comatose, doesn't mean any and all other victims would be so lucky or resilient enough to resist a personality disorder from it's effects. There is no proof Tsunade healed any mental disorders they recieved, as Sasuke went to bed immediately from Tskuyomi, while Kakashi was still awake, but clearly had nearly full mental faculities despite his poor state, he could reason and hold conversation, he showed no signs of depression, just fatigue and neuron damage were his only shown symptoms. But that's JUST HOW KAKASHI could hold up against THAT specific Tskuyomi illusion.


Again a personality disorder in itself isn’t what I’m concerned about is the coma which would definitely impact fighting.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Lol no. It took a toll on him after wasting 50 percent of his chakra with exploding shadow clone and casting two times with massive time dilation, and amaterasu plus the other techs he used. What I'm saying is, he can dilate time very insignificantly or remove it all together, since he is explicitly stated to control the time passage however he likes, as per his own description and Danzo's descriptuion of the techniquw.


Chapter 257 page 7 and 8 Kakashi speaks his analyses out loud about the massive chakra cost in which Itachi compliments him on figuring it out from their one battle. Kakashi also recalls Kisame warning Itachi that overusing his eyes was dangerous.




ThirdRidoku said:


> Itachi casted it without time dilation to control Kabuto and make him spill the beans on Edo Tensei, and also used it against EMS Sasuke without any time dilation as a partner method ( as the Tskuyomi lasted as long as it took for Kabuto's hydra to reach Sasuke, and all that happened in Tskuyomi in parallel was Itachi freeing Sasuke from the snakes in the illusion), proving he can cast it just fine without dilating time. The time passage between the genjutsu and real world was equal or greater in the real world in both cases.


Itachi said he intended to use it to gather that information from Kabuto however such evidence gathering should have been possible with the regular Sharingan as well. I also don’t remember putting forth an argument that dealt with the passage of time 


ThirdRidoku said:


> He casted it the same way against Hebi Sasuke as well. He kept Sasuke in the genjutsu long enough for his real world-crows to fly away, for Black Zetsu to react from outside the illusion, and for Sasuke to lift his hands from waist level to head level, since Sasuke's hands are on his left eye when he was freed from the genjutsu, when it wasn't when he entered the illusion, and Zetsu clearly reacts to Sasuke losing his eye in the genjutsu, so it makes sense he would have seen Sasuke lifting up his hand to his eye, and reacted to that, and why when the illusion is dispelled we see Sasuke holding his left eye, with his head planted down into his left hand.





ThirdRidoku said:


> He clearly had him trapped in it for several manga pages.
> 
> So no, Itachi can control her with Tskuyomi, and can use it for mind control, so she isn't breaking out , if he uses it like a normal but potent MS Genjutsu. Sharingan plus bloodline or bust here.


Tsukuyomi can control the passage of time not mind control a person. If I’m not mistaken. He used his regular genjutsu to get Kabuto to stop edo tensei. Which he states in chapter 587 page 1


ThirdRidoku said:


> Healing comatose =/=healing personality disorders or depression.


Never made an argument stating otherwise I believe. People can still function normally with depression as well so I don’t see how that would be a factor.


ThirdRidoku said:


> If he does use Tskuyomi this way, Seeing Dan/Kawaki die for one day is nothing compared to seeing it happen for 80 years, with no hope of escaping. There is a difference between remembering a bad event for many years, and being forced to experience said traumatic event over and over directly, for many years.


You’re under the impression that Tsunade may not have already relived it over and over again without help. I would be more inclined to agree with you if she hadn’t already gotten through her trauma.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

Thé 5 clones < noob MS sasuke as those 5 managed to do less damage to A4 than sasuke did 

not sure why those clones are being hyped . If you can breach or stop susanoo you win rather easily like onoki did 

if you can’t it’s tough 

Minato , obito , kisame , Nagato , jiraiya etc sold have a much easier time agains those clones than tsunade did . It doesn’t make them immune to Itachi attack all of a sudden

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Azula (Dec 13, 2020)

Tsunade can deal with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu and stalemate with Susanoo but Yata and Totsuka will prove a Challenge.

Totsuka can bypass her healing because it breaks plot so Tsunade will win with MS restricted but may lose with MS unrestricted.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> Tsunade can deal with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu and stalemate with Susanoo but Yata and Totsuka will prove a Challenge.
> 
> Totsuka can bypass her healing because it breaks plot so Tsunade will win with MS restricted but may lose with MS unrestricted.


How does she extinguishes Amaterasu ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> Tsunade can deal with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu and stalemate with Susanoo but Yata and Totsuka will prove a Challenge.
> 
> Totsuka can bypass her healing because it breaks plot so Tsunade will win with MS restricted but may lose with MS unrestricted.



Even cerebrus couldn’t deal with Amaterasu and it has significantly better regen feats than tsunade

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Azula (Dec 13, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> How does she extinguishes Amaterasu ?





MHA massive fan said:


> Even cerebrus couldn’t deal with Amaterasu and it has significantly better regen feats than tsunade


Tsunade has been shown to be able to repel flames using her strength when she repelled Madara's katon jutsu. She can heal whatever damage Amaterasu leaves after the flames have been repelled.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> Tsunade has been shown to be able to repel flames using her strength when she repelled Madara's katon jutsu. She can heal whatever damage Amaterasu leaves after the flames have been repelled.


It has been debated already, she will not face a projectile fire, the black flames will spawn upon her.


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> Tsunade has been shown to be able to repel flames using her strength when she repelled Madara's katon jutsu. She can heal whatever damage Amaterasu leaves after the flames have been repelled.


So are you saying she can punch every single fire base attack? Flames of samadi, Madara flame ash technique etc? So long as it’s fire she can punch it is that the logic

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> Tsunade has been shown to be able to repel flames using her strength when she repelled Madara's katon jutsu. She can heal whatever damage Amaterasu leaves after the flames have been repelled.


Do you also think she can punch a rasenshuriken?


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Do you also think she can punch a rasenshuriken?


No apparently she can only punch fire based things regardless of shape manipulation 

using her will of fire no less

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Azula (Dec 13, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> So are you saying she can punch every single fire base attack? Flames of samadi, Madara flame ash technique etc? So long as it’s fire she can punch it is that the logic


Whatever is within her strength. She could punch away a big V3 Susanoo so I assume jutsus at least as big as Susanoo are getting punched.

Amaterasu starts off small so it is within her limit.

It is a lot similar to out of chakra Naruto defeating amaterasu by pushing it away wih Kurama chakra.



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> It has been debated already, she will not face a projectile fire, the black flames will spawn upon her.


How Amaterasu appears is irrelevant. Once it has made contact with Tsunade she can apply her strength to repel it. Makes no difference if it is a projectile or it spawns.



KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Do you also think she can punch a rasenshuriken?


Rasenshuriken will either cut her hand or explode in a sphere and engulf her. Not sure how this is relevant...




MHA massive fan said:


> No apparently she can only punch fire based things regardless of shape manipulation
> 
> using her will of fire no less


She has been show to repel a fire jutsu.

What is the problem is if we argue against another fire jutsu using what has already been shown...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> It is a lot similar to out of chakra Naruto defeating amaterasu by pushing it away wih Kurama chakra.


It was the Nine tails cloak that prevented it from ever making contact with the body and not all kind of cloaks can do that as evident from Raikage's situation.



Azula said:


> Once it has made contact with Tsunade she can apply her strength to repel it


There is no repelling it, the target itself catches fire and the fire itself can't be extinguished that easily. She will have to cut off her head.


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> Whatever is within her strength. She could punch away a big V3 Susanoo so I assume jutsus at least as big as Susanoo are getting punched.


This is rather stupid . How do you punch something on your body without punching by yourself? 


Azula said:


> Amaterasu starts off small so it is within her limit.


 tell that to Hachibi , sasuke , cerebrus . Covered their bodies in 1 panel . Please tell me where has it started off small ?


Azula said:


> It is a lot similar to out of chakra Naruto defeating amaterasu by pushing it away wih Kurama chakra.


Tsunade doesn’t have a cloak though so daft comparison ... are you a dupe account serious question 


Azula said:


> How Amaterasu appears is irrelevant. Once it has made contact with Tsunade she can apply her strength to repel it. Makes no difference if it is a projectile or it spawns.


Actually very relevant as you can’t punch it away from you if it’s on your bkdy


Azula said:


> Rasenshuriken will either cut her hand or explode in a sphere and engulf her. Not sure how this is relevant...


Quite relevant as naturally Amaterasu also engulfs her. Unless you think she is larger than Hachibi 


Azula said:


> She has been show to repel a fire jutsu.
> 
> What is the problem is if we argue against another fire jutsu using what has already been shown...


And yamato survived a lightning jutsu hope you don’t think that makes him immune to Kirin 

thafs the sum of your logic


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## Azula (Dec 13, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> It was the Nine tails cloak that prevented it from ever making contact with the body and not all kind of cloaks can do that as evident from Raikage's situation.


Okay, but it is not necessary to prevent contact to defeat amaterasu.

There are different ways to defeat amaterasu.

Nagato repelled it with gravitational so that is another way.

Tsunade can repel it with her strength and manga favors her by giving her flame repelling feats.

I used Naruto example to show how amaterasu can be defeated before it grows bigger.


KakashixMeixShizune said:


> There is no repelling it, the target itself catches fire and the fire itself can't be extinguished that easily. She will have to cut off her head.


See above.

Amaterasu can bedefeated before it becomes bigger.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Azula (Dec 13, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> This is rather stupid . How do you punch something on your body without punching by yourself?


But nobody said anything about punching herself.

Reread how she deals with Madara's jutsu. She sort of shakes it off. Not punching. The flames hit all over her arms so that is not a punch.


MHA massive fan said:


> Tsunade doesn’t have a cloak though so daft comparison ... are you a dupe account serious question


A cloak is not necessary to defeat amaterasu. There are different ways just like there are different ways to defeat regular katon jutsu.


MHA massive fan said:


> tell that to Hachibi , sasuke , cerebrus . Covered their bodies in 1 panel . Please tell me where has it started off small ?


It starts off a small burst and then gets bigger. Literally every use ever.

Sasuke had just been given a large chunk of Juugo's sage chakra and he took a lot of time to initiate amaterasu. So that was an outlier.

Every other usage follows this patyer. You are not judging time correctly by panel.


MHA massive fan said:


> Actually very relevant as you can’t punch it away from you if it’s on your bkdy


See above where Tsunade repels flames on her arms.


MHA massive fan said:


> Quite relevant as naturally Amaterasu also engulfs her. Unless you think she is larger than Hachibi


It will be throw off her body before it gets bigger.


MHA massive fan said:


> And yamato survived a lightning jutsu hope you don’t think that makes him immune to Kirin


A very bad analogy.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Trojan (Dec 13, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Thé 5 clones < noob MS sasuke as those 5 managed to do less damage to A4 than sasuke did
> 
> not sure why those clones are being hyped . If you can breach or stop susanoo you win rather easily like onoki did
> 
> ...


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

Azula said:


> But nobody said anything about punching herself.
> 
> Reread how she deals with Madara's jutsu. She sort of shakes it off. Not punching. The flames hit all over her arms so that is not a punch.


 she punched away a projectile . Amaterasu isn’t a projectile . So to use her strength to get rid of it she has to punch herself 


Azula said:


> A cloak is not necessary to defeat amaterasu. There are different ways just like there are different ways to defeat regular katon jutsu.


 . Name them 


Azula said:


> It starts off a small burst and then gets bigger. Literally every use ever.


Fan fic .. case in point Hachibi and cerebrus 


Azula said:


> Sasuke had just been given a large chunk of Juugo's sage chakra and he took a lot of time to initiate amaterasu. So that was an outlier.


Cerebrus . ... Itachi wasn’t given any chakra 


Azula said:


> Every other usage follows this patyer. You are not judging time correctly by panel.


False 


Azula said:


> See above where Tsunade repels flames on her arms.
> 
> It will be throw off her body before it gets bigger.
> 
> A very bad analogy.


Refer to the manga and stop using head canon

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tanto (Dec 13, 2020)

Ay Had a cloak he couldn’t get rid of Amaterasu 

Yet somehow Tsunade somehow can

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (Dec 13, 2020)

Tanto said:


> Yet somehow Tsunade somehow can


it's not "somehow" we literally see her does that Vs Madara 
we know how she will do it...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

New Folder said:


> it's not "somehow" we literally see her does that Vs Madara
> we know how she will do it...


Like I said outlandish
Slapping a projectile isn’t the same as slapping something that appears on you
Thought you only state facts


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## Trojan (Dec 13, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Like I said outlandish
> Slapping a projectile isn’t the same as slapping something that appears on you
> Thought you only state facts


why is it not the same? 
it "appeared" on Nagato, and he got rid of it just fine. 

Also, the dragons hit her entire arm-length. That is no "slap" lol

you only thought it's outlandish because you didn't know what you are talking about.


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 13, 2020)

New Folder said:


> why is it not the same?
> it "appeared" on Nagato, and he got rid of it just fine.


He didn’t punch it . Cute to equate a punch with a gravitational force 


New Folder said:


> Also, the dragons hit her entire arm-length. That is no "slap" lol
> 
> you only thought it's outlandish because you didn't know what you are talking about.


 
In short you are a liar

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Bob74h (Dec 13, 2020)

Ether tsunade one shots him before he can use his hax or itachi bodies her with his hax, It all depends on who gets the first hit.
Itachi could win if he hits tsunade once with the tosuka blade or looks at her however thats going to be hard considering tsunade would know not to leave her eyes open like that plus she's far faster then itachi anyway like itachi could not dodge lightning whilie tsunade scales kid kakashi who cut lightning out of the sky

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## Phenomenon (Dec 13, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> Ether tsunade one shots him before he can use his hax or itachi bodies her with his hax, It all depends on who gets the first hit.
> Itachi could win if he hits tsunade once with the tosuka blade or looks at her however thats going to be hard considering tsunade would know not to leave her eyes open like that plus she's far faster then itachi anyway like itachi could not dodge lightning whilie tsunade scales kid kakashi who cut lightning out of the sky


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 13, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> anyway like itachi could not dodge lightning whilie tsunade scales kid kakashi who cut lightning out of the sky



lol.

@ThirdRidoku @blk @King789

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Bob74h (Dec 13, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> lol.


Part 1 kakashi would get bodied by tsunade saying as she bodied orochimaru and that same kakashi got scared by even being around orochi.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Tanto (Dec 14, 2020)

New Folder said:


> it's not "somehow" we literally see her does that Vs Madara
> we know how she will do it



Except she won’t be able to hit the flames off. Amaterasu will appear on her and she’ll be unable to extinguish it.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 14, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> Part 1 kakashi would get bodied by tsunade saying as she bodied orochimaru and that same kakashi got scared by even being around orochi.



maru... 



Tanto said:


> Except she won’t be able to hit the flames off. Amaterasu will appear on her and she’ll be unable to extinguish it.



good thing she can peel off the burning parts using chakra scalpels or rip off the burning parts like ay4 did and heal with byakugo.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Azula (Dec 14, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> she punched away a projectile . Amaterasu isn’t a projectile . So to use her strength to get rid of it she has to punch herself


Punch = hitting with fist.

You can't punch with your arm.



Wherever the flames hit they are getting repelled.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tanto (Dec 14, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> good thing she can peel off the burning parts using chakra scalpels or rip off the burning parts like ay4 did and heal with byakugo.



Tell us how’s she going to do that in a Genjutsu 

What’s she gonna do if she gets hit in the face 

It’s not like Itachi’s just going to sit there.

Amaterasu, Genjutsu, and Totsuka seal the deal.


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## Bob74h (Dec 14, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> maru...


What makes you think im maru?


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## Tanto (Dec 14, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> when has itachi shown the ability to use genjutsu and amaterasu back to back?



Nice strawman. I didn’t say he’d need to use it back to back. He only needs to use Genjutsu and Amaterasu once. He was spamming ms techs in his fight with Kabuto and in his fight with Sasuke, he also spammed his ms techs in his fight with Naruto and Bee. He can surely use Genjutsu and Amaterasu without a problem.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> only totsuka.
> 
> nothing less will do. maybe amaterasu, but i doubt it



Yup Totsuka seals her.

Itachi can put her in a Genjutsu and control her as he did with Kabuto. He can simply turn her regen off similar to how he made Kabuto release ET.

Amaterasu burns her to a crisp. There’s Legit nothing she can do if she’s hit in the face.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 14, 2020)

Azula said:


> Punch = hitting with fist.
> 
> You can't punch with your arm.
> 
> ...


 lariat disagrees with you


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 14, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> lariat disagrees with you



lariat isn't a punch.


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 14, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> lariat isn't a punch.


Lariat uses his arms 
Point is being able to smack fodder fire balls with your arm has no baring on defending Amaterasu that spawns square on your chest 

what is she gonna use ? Her tits to slap them off ?


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## Azula (Dec 14, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> lariat disagrees with you





MHA massive fan said:


> Point is being able to smack fodder fire balls with your arm has no baring on defending Amaterasu that spawns square on your chest


I don't even know what you are arguing anymore. 

Anyway more evidence that what works for regular katon jutsu will also work for amaterasu.

Kurama chakra protects against regular katon by Madara.



Kurama chakra also protects against amaterasu.



So you shouldn't dismiss Tsunade's feat.

Amaterasu is the strongest katon jutsu but it will still follow some similar pattern as a regular katon jutsu.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 14, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Lariat uses his arms



that doesn't make it a punch, maru.



MHA massive fan said:


> Point is being able to smack fodder fire balls with your arm



imagine calling madara uchiha's fireballs ''fodder''. 

even the dude's physical capabilities are high enough to block ay4's punch without damage and (when rejuvenated) overpower sm naruto cleanly, yet you're out here calling madara's kage killing katons ''fodder''.  



MHA massive fan said:


> has no baring on defending Amaterasu that spawns square on your chest





MHA massive fan said:


> what is she gonna use ? Her tits to slap them off ?



i think using chakra to repel the flames off is a possibility. 

even if it wasn't, tsunade could use chakra scalpels to shear the burning parts off and have byakugo regenerate new flesh.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Phenomenon (Dec 14, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> that doesn't make it a punch, maru.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is easily a more viable counter to Amaterasu tbh.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 14, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> This is easily a more viable counter to Amaterasu tbh.



and the best part is, it seems way more ic than tsunade literally ripping her own arms off and then regenerating them.

more practical too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 14, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> *Thé 5 clones < noob MS sasuke* as those 5 managed to do less damage to A4 than sasuke did
> 
> not sure why those clones are being hyped . If you can breach or stop susanoo you win rather easily like onoki did
> 
> ...


You say this as if the same doesn't also apply to 3T Itachi. I think you're missing the entire point of what people have been saying, no one is trying to say that the clones themselves are super strong. We're  just saying that even though the clones are rather weak, we have no reason to believe (or at least I don't) that 3T Itachi with his kunai and shurikens is more a threat than 5 Susanoo-wielding clones.


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## zaddyxx22 (Dec 14, 2020)

tsunade immediately releases her seal to counter any genjutsu then red mists itachi eventually. itachi needs to immediately use susanoo to have a chance to win

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 14, 2020)

zaddyxx22 said:


> tsunade immediately releases her seal to counter any genjutsu



funny, if it was that simple, naruto would've broken out by going kyuubi mode...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## zaddyxx22 (Dec 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> funny, if it was that simple, naruto would've broken out by going kyuubi mode...


naruto doesn’t have perfect chakra control

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 15, 2020)

zaddyxx22 said:


> naruto doesn’t have perfect chakra control



''perfect chakra control'' my ass. tsunade doesn't have it either. 

in fact, naruto has better chakra control feats through creating the rasenshuriken


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## Sloan (Dec 15, 2020)

Cep/Cec gg

Reactions: Funny 1


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## zaddyxx22 (Dec 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> ''perfect chakra control'' my ass. tsunade doesn't have it either.
> 
> in fact, naruto has better chakra control feats through creating the rasenshuriken


byakugou is the pinnacle of chakra control sir, but you should know that... naruto can’t even do simple medical ninjustu which is said to require delicate chakra control.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 15, 2020)

zaddyxx22 said:


> byakugou is the pinnacle of chakra control sir, but you should know that...



proof?

also, being great at chakra control does not make you immune to genjutsu. naruto was helpless before utakata even after learning to create the rasenshuriken. tsunade has no feats of resisting or countering genjutsu at all.



zaddyxx22 said:


> naruto can’t even do simple medical ninjustu



because he was...never trained to do it? he never learned to? lol.



zaddyxx22 said:


> which is said to require delicate chakra control.



i seriously hope you're not suggesting learning basic medical ninjutsu > using sage mode or the rasenshuriken in difficulty


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## zaddyxx22 (Dec 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> proof?
> 
> also, being great at chakra control does not make you immune to genjutsu. naruto was helpless before utakata even after learning to create the rasenshuriken. tsunade has no feats of resisting or countering genjutsu at all.
> 
> ...


The absolute pinnacle of Medical Ninjutsu~~ a forbidden regeneration technique!”

“Created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body’s cell division is forcibly stimulated, reconstruction all organs and all tissues making up the human body!” - databook

looks like i was mistaken but it still doesn’t help that naruto admits inferiority to sakura in boruto in terms of medical ninjutsu. if rasenshuriken is so difficult then something simple like medical ninjutsu should be a breeze right?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 15, 2020)

zaddyxx22 said:


> The absolute pinnacle of *Medical Ninjutsu*~~ a forbidden regeneration technique!”



medical ninjutsu =/ all ninjutsu.



zaddyxx22 said:


> looks like i was mistaken but it still doesn’t help that naruto admits inferiority to sakura in boruto in terms of medical ninjutsu.



medical ninjutsu =/ dealing with genjutsu.

naruto has fewer feats of medical ninjutsu than dealing with genjutsu, in fact.

thanks for playing.



zaddyxx22 said:


> if rasenshuriken is so difficult



wait...are you doubting that it's difficult? 

even though the super genius fourth hokage and kakashi were unable to do it themselves? 

the fourth being a greater genius than tsunade or sakura himself objectively speaking?



zaddyxx22 said:


> then something simple like medical ninjutsu should be a breeze right?



apples to oranges. you're also acting as if naruto actually even tried to master medical ninjutsu like he mastered the rasenshuriken.

y'know, the jutsu he worked so hard to learn *so he could save sasuke*?


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## VoiceofLogic (Dec 15, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Tsunade is a juggernaut whose strength is in her inability to be put down, but genjutsu IMO largely counteracts that advantage. With crow genjutsu or finger genjutsu, Itachi initiates a battle on his playing field that he would win.
> 
> Outside of that, I think Itachi’s advantage in speed, reflexes, and the ability to make clones (feints or otherwise) would also enable him to cut or punch Tsunade’s head off (with Itachi’s own CES feat) while evading Tsunade’s powerful but straightforward attacks. The DB also has Itachi knowing wind ninjutsu, so he likely has cutting attacks there as well (since that’s what wind does) if you don’t think a kunai would be sufficient. I think easily taking a hand with when much young with a kunai would translate into him taking a neck as an adult though.
> 
> In Byakugo, she is fairly fast (I personally consider her between base and v1 A4), but still not on Itachi’s speed tier IMO and his precognition sweetens the deal for him there. It would be like 3T Sasuke vs KN0, except Itachi is also faster than Tsunade whereas KN0 was way faster than Sasuke. So Itachi is in a good position.


_*Even if Itachi can use genjutsu, there’re many ways to counter it like other MS users did, SM users did, experienced Taijutsu fighter like Gai did, or basically counter it by having stronger Dojutsu. 
EMS, Rinnegan, Rinne-Sharingan, Tenseigan, etc.,

Under this condition, Tsunade wins.*_

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 15, 2020)

VoiceofLogic said:


> _*Even if Itachi can use genjutsu, there’re many ways to counter it like other MS users did, SM users did, experienced Taijutsu fighter like Gai did, or basically counter it by having stronger Dojutsu.
> EMS, Rinnegan, Rinne-Sharingan, Tenseigan, etc.,
> 
> Under this condition, Tsunade wins.*_



but how does tsunade do it? she has no doujutsu, none of the sm tactics, or guy's method.


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## VoiceofLogic (Dec 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> but how does tsunade do it? she has no doujutsu, none of the sm tactics, or guy's method.


_*Tsunade is a seasonal Taijutsu user, she should’ve an idea when it comes to fighting a Genjutsu master, especially if that Genjutsu master cannot utilize his biggest weapon.*_


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> He didn’t punch it . Cute to equate a punch with a gravitational force
> 
> 
> In short you are a liar


are you dumb? 
I never said Nagato punched it.
All I said wether it "appears" on someone directly or not, that doesn't change the fact that it can be repeled.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 15, 2020)

VoiceofLogic said:


> _*Tsunade is a seasonal*_



i think you mean seasoned lol. 



VoiceofLogic said:


> _* Taijutsu user, she should’ve an idea when it comes to fighting a Genjutsu master, especially if that Genjutsu master cannot utilize his biggest weapon.*_



i'm sorry, but...ideas are not good enough. implementation is what matters.

kakashi isn't half bad at taijutsu himself, is a literal genius, knows genjutsu, and has a sharingan. yet itachi crushed him with genjutsu before.


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## VoiceofLogic (Dec 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> i think you mean seasoned lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Trying to go H2H with Tsunade will cause lethal damages, she has that one-shot ending KO punch. Itachi while pretty good at Taijutsu, he still not a specialist at it like Gai, Tsunade, 3rd Raikage, Ay. It isn’t his bread and butter nor his fight-ending technique like Genjutsu is to him. So that’s why I think he will lose._


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 15, 2020)

VoiceofLogic said:


> _Trying to go H2H with Tsunade will cause lethal damages, she has that one-shot ending KO punch. Itachi while pretty good at Taijutsu, he still not a specialist at it like Gai, Tsunade, 3rd Raikage, Ay. It isn’t his bread and butter nor his fight-ending technique like Genjutsu is to him. So that’s why I think he will lose._



huh? i thought we were talking about genjutsu, not taijutsu?


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## VoiceofLogic (Dec 15, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> huh? i thought we were talking about genjutsu, not taijutsu?


_Op said no genjutsu allowed, so I thought you meant how does Tsunade beat a non-genjutsu Itachi, lol
With it, Akatsuki Itachi should mid-low diff WA Tsunade. 
Like others, Taijutsu won’t carry you forever, you will need other offensive techniques that can hurt your opponents both short-long range.
Tsunade will be taking out by Amaterasu or Totsuka eventually, or even Tsukuyomi (if she forgot herself and let her guard down for a few secs)._


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## Phenomenon (Dec 15, 2020)

VoiceofLogic said:


> _*Tsunade is a seasonal Taijutsu user, she should’ve an idea when it comes to fighting a Genjutsu master, especially if that Genjutsu master cannot utilize his biggest weapon.*_


She's a veteran yes but Itachi isn't a generic Genjutsu practitioner even amongst other Genjutsu specialists she will be wanting to use distractions to her benefit like Katsuya since she doesn't use Clones.


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## Phenomenon (Dec 15, 2020)

Can someone explain to me why Tsunade never uses Clones??? I know she seemingly doesn't have them but they would make her much deadlier with her strategy to close and pound.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 20, 2020)

New Folder said:


> are you dumb?
> I never said Nagato punched it.
> All I said wether it "appears" on someone directly or not, that doesn't change the fact that it can be repeled.


 
Waiting for tsunade feats of doing such till then she burns when Amaterasu lands on her


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## MHA massive fan (Dec 20, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Can someone explain to me why Tsunade never uses Clones??? I know she seemingly doesn't have them but they would make her much deadlier with her strategy to close and pound.


Because she was never smart enough to learn to use clones


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## Maverick04 (Dec 20, 2020)

Good lord. Can't believe people are actually arguing that Tsunade is gonna punch away Amaterasu something that spawns on target and is more powerful than regular fire style which burnt Tsunade. Lmao I'm done with this place. 

OT: Itachi burns her to crisp with Amaterasu or worst case scenario seals her the fuck away mid diff. Tsunade wins against 3T Itachi

Reactions: Like 1 | Lewd 4


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## Beyonce (Dec 20, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> ''perfect chakra control'' my ass. tsunade doesn't have it either.
> 
> in fact, naruto has better chakra control feats through creating the rasenshuriken


IA Naruto doesn’t have better chakra control than Tsunade. He doesn’t eclipse her until after KCM where he’s able to give people kyubi cloaks imo

Tsunade’s best feat of chakra control is easily Katsuyu’s long range healing. The reason medical ninjutsu is so difficult to begin with is because you have to match your chakra precisely to your patients, and if you don’t you end up overcharging them and putting them into comatose.

Tsunade did this to the scale of an *entire village *both regular fodder citizens and ninja alike. Even Shizune herself said this jutsu was something she couldn’t even do.

Even the ability to command your chakra to auto-regenerate itself is an act of extreme chakra control (pinnacle of medical ninjutsu, medical ninjutsu being a chakra control extensive technique). 

While I’m not doubting rasenshuriken definitely requires above average chakra control (more-so than BoS Sakura imo), I don’t quite think it beats out techniques like long distance healing and auto-regeneration

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MustardPN (Dec 20, 2020)

R1: Tsunade mid diff
R2: Itachi no diff


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## Trojan (Dec 20, 2020)

Maverick04 said:


> Good lord. Can't believe people are actually arguing that Tsunade is gonna punch away Amaterasu something that spawns on target and is more powerful than regular fire style which burnt Tsunade. Lmao I'm done with this place.
> 
> OT: Itachi burns her to crisp with Amaterasu or worst case scenario seals her the fuck away mid diff. Tsunade wins against 3T Itachi


"good lord! I can't believe Tsunade can do something she actually did"
"But I can totally believe Amaterasu will do something that it never has (burning someone to death)"

Reactions: Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 22, 2020)

Damn, Tsunade fans really brigaded this thread by upvoting the worst arguments possible in favour of her and downvoting any critism.

It's no wonder why they call sannin fans a cult. 

As for the match, Tsuande gets the oro treatment.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Speedyamell (Dec 22, 2020)

New Folder said:


> "good lord! I can't believe Tsunade can do something she actually did"
> "But I can totally believe Amaterasu will do something that it never has (burning someone to death)"


The irony though


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## Maverick04 (Dec 22, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Damn, Tsunade fans really brigaded this thread by upvoting the worst arguments possible in favour of her and downvoting any critism.
> 
> It's no wonder why they call sannin fans a cult.
> 
> As for the match, Tsuande gets the oro treatment.


What do you expect from them? I just put them on ignore. There's only so much trash you can deal with.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 23, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> funny, if it was that simple, naruto would've broken out by going kyuubi mode...


Perfect cooperation with your tailed beast is canonically the reason why jins are immune to most genjutsu though. Cause the beast acts as the partner that sends their chakra into the host to break them free of the genjutsu. So why is Tsunade using her seal to break free a stretch of the imagination?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 23, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Perfect cooperation with your tailed beast is canonically the reason why jins are immune to most genjutsu though. Cause the beast acts as the partner that sends their chakra into the host to break them free of the genjutsu. So why is Tsunade using her seal to break free a stretch of the imagination?



because it is not the partner method.


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## Beyonce (Dec 23, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> because it is not the partner method.


But mechanically it’s the same is it not? Bijuu floods their host with chakra to break them out of genjutsu

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Perfect cooperation with your tailed beast is canonically the reason why jins are immune to most genjutsu though. Cause the beast acts as the partner that sends their chakra into the host to break them free of the genjutsu. So why is Tsunade using her seal to break free a stretch of the imagination?





Beyonce said:


> But mechanically it’s the same is it not? Bijuu floods their host with chakra to break them out of genjutsu





So let me ask you a simple question, what does Tsunade have to do break the seal?

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 23, 2020)

Projecting isn’t healthy Ziggy


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Projecting isn’t healthy Ziggy



Before this turns into purley off-topic insults.  Perahps you can answer the question in their place?



> So let me ask you a simple question what does Tsunade have to do break the seal?



don't be shy now.


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## Beyonce (Dec 23, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> You guys are dumb asf.
> 
> So let me ask you a simple question what does Tsunade have to do break the seal?


Literally nothing dumbass. No hand seals or anything.

Releases her seal here with no handsigns []
Releases seal again with no handsigns []
Sakura releases seal here with no handsigns []
And again here after literally taking it off []
And once again here []

Only times handseals were ever utilized were when she does mitotic regeneration to heal herself, and they clearly indicate that.

Like here []
And here []

_Infuin Kai _the "jutsu" needed to break the seal literally only requires cognizant thought.

Tsunade even released the seal fast enough before Pain's jutsu could obliterate the entire village. []

Even though the page RIGHT before his jutsu she was still chasing Pain with her seal in tact []

So what exactly are you trying to prove? That she can't undo the seal because genjutsu is somehow immobilizing her?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

I'm trying to prove that Itachi can make her think she's released the seal in the genjutsu realm, even if she hasn't done so in the real world.  The argument wasn't contingent upon hand seals.  But she still needs to make a cognitive thought, which Itachi has control of.   If she's going to fight him, she needs a partner or to avoid all forms of visual contact.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> Literally nothing dumbass. No hand seals or anything.
> 
> Releases her seal here with no handsigns []
> Releases seal again with no handsigns []
> Sakura release



Also nitwit, she actaully was making seals in that second example.  

Look at the second panel


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## Beyonce (Dec 23, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I'm trying to prove that Itachi can make her think she's released the seal in the genjutsu realm, even if she hasn't done so in the real world.  The argument wasn't contingent upon hand seals.  But she still needs to make a cognitive thought, which Itachi has control of.   If she's going to fight him, she needs a partner or to avoid all forms of visual contact.


Right, because Itachi with manga knowledge is going to use genjutsu to sift through Tsunade's memory and get full knowledge that she has a regeneration technique that not even her own two partners knew about, AND conjure a genjutsu realm to trick Tsunade into using said jutsu that he just found out about  At best, Itachi's genjutsu has only ever shown to play on opponents worst fears, but that in itself isn't necessarily going through the past.

Itachi still needs time to learn the handseals here []
And Sasuke still needed people to answer his questions here []


Ziggy Stardust said:


> Also nitwit, she actaully was making seals in that second example.
> 
> Look at the second panel


Good catch. If anything it can be written off as an inconsistency from the others, or the hand-seal is simply optional. There are still 4 other examples of the seal being released with no use of handsigns, especially in example 1. One showing of it using hand-signs doesn't rule out 4 other showings, especially more recent ones. We've seen characters use no hand-seals for a jutsu, but then, later on, use that same jutsu with hand-seals.


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 23, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Before this turns into purley off-topic insults.  Perahps you can answer the question in their place?
> 
> 
> 
> don't be shy now.


I mean you threw the first insult so don’t try to take the high ground here. I can care less about what you guys are discussing just simply don’t be an asshole. You can disagree all day without resulting to insults.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> Right, because Itachi with manga knowledge is going to use genjutsu to sift through Tsunade's memory and get full knowledge that she has a regeneration technique that not even her own two partners knew about, AND conjure a genjutsu realm to trick Tsunade into using said jutsu that he just found out about



He made Naruto think he used Rasengan when in reality he was standing still, despite never seeing it, just with his finger...



> At best, Itachi's genjutsu has only ever shown to play on opponents worst fears, but that in itself isn't necessarily going through the past.



The fact he can manifest deepset fears into vivid phantasms is more proof in favour of this.


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 23, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I mean you threw the first insult so don’t try to take the high ground here. I can care less about what you guys are discussing just simply don’t be an asshole. You can disagree all day without resulting to insults.


Did Ziggy insult you  
Yo @Ziggy Stardust  Sakura and @Beyonce  are off limits

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 23, 2020)

King789 said:


> Did Ziggy insult you
> Yo @Ziggy Stardust  Sakura and @Beyonce  are off limits


It wasn’t directed at me it seems to be specifically directed at Beyoncé and Isaiah. However that being said this increased hostility isn’t necessary to have a discussion. It’s partly one of the reasons why I don’t frequent here as much.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It wasn’t directed at me it seems to be specifically directed at Beyoncé and Isaiah. However that being said this increased hostility isn’t necessary to have a discussion. It’s partly one of the reasons why I don’t frequent here as much.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Zero890 (Dec 23, 2020)

Damn Itachi is so overrated

Reactions: Agree 2 | Lewd 1


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## Beyonce (Dec 23, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> He made Naruto think he used Rasengan when in reality he was standing still, despite never seeing it, just with his finger...


He made Naruto think he used Rasengan. Naruto still had free-will and cognizant thought and was the one who used it, Itachi just set up the illusion to where Naruto thought he was hitting him.

If Itachi had such skill with genjutsu to where he knows Naruto's full arsenal and how to do it with just a simple look of his finger, again, why the hell is Kabuto having to teach him the handseals to undo 



Ziggy Stardust said:


> The fact he can manifest deepset fears into vivid phantasms is more proof in favour of this.


No, it simply just triggers the prefrontal cortex where trauma is stored in the brain and produces said effect of nightmares. It's not him actually seeing through Naruto's entire past and finding out his innermost fears in the span of moments, when clearly that's not the case seeing as, again, Sasuke still needed the person he was interrogating to give him .

So yes, Tsunade simply releases her seal when she finds out she's caught under genjutsu. The seal pumps chakra into her system. Releases the genjutsu.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> He made Naruto think he used Rasengan.



Correct.



Beyonce said:


> Naruto still had free-will and cognizant thought and was the one who used it, Itachi just set up the illusion to where Naruto thought he was hitting him.



Correct again.



Beyonce said:


> If Itachi had such skill with genjutsu to where he knows Naruto's full arsenal and how to do it with just a simple look of his finger, again, why the hell is Kabuto having to teach him the handseals to undo



Never said he did.  I said he can trick Tsuande into thinking shes using techniques she already has b,ut he quite clearly doesn't even have to know about said techs.  He did so with Rasengan despite never seeing it before.




Beyonce said:


> No, it simply just triggers the prefrontal cortex where trauma is stored in the brain and produces said effect of nightmares. It's not him actually seeing through Naruto's entire past and finding out his innermost fears in the span of moments, when clearly that's not the case seeing as, again, Sasuke still needed the person he was interrogating to give him .



And likewise, he should be able to trigger the prefrontal cortex where memories are stored and produce illusions that make them think they are fighting when they're actually not.  Although you don't have to take my word for it, he's done this in the manga.



> So yes, Tsunade simply releases her seal when she finds out she's caught under genjutsu. The seal pumps chakra into her system. Releases the genjutsu.



Assuming this is possible there are already multiple problems that she can run into here.

The first is this



> she finds out she's caught under genjutsu



Itachi is able, and has simulated reality to the point where adversaries either need 1) a sharingan 2) a trained eye to descern.  He can construct a reality where Tsuande kills a dummy while the real Itachi decapitates her and she wouldn't know any better.



> he seal pumps chakra into her system. Releases the genjutsu



When Jiraiya described the Kai method he said "you have to stop the flow of chakra as much as possible" It's not clear that her seal does this.  But even if it did, it wouldn't help her against Tsukyomi.


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 23, 2020)

No thank you.


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## Beyonce (Dec 23, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Never said he did.  I said he can trick Tsuande into thinking shes using techniques she already has, but he quite clearly he doesn't even have to know about those things.  He did so with Rasengan despite never seeing it before.


Naruto still used rasengan, just not on a target he could see. There's no indication that he was just standing still the entire time. His location at the beginning of the genjutsu and where he did rasengan are the same.

Sasuke had to fool Danzo into thinking his sharingan eye was still closed, as opposed to your strategy of just straight up using genjutsu to make him think he used izanagi.



Kakashi having to play to Zabuza's paranoia and create an illusion of him to suggest his next handseal, as opposed to your logic of making him do said hand seals and copying it since he's not "actually" doing it



If genjutsu is able to fool people into fake-using jutsu, then genjutsu kai would be completely irrelevant seeing as the caster could just make them think they're using it.

Hence why Itachi had to cut off Orochimaru's arm when he tried using genjutsu kai, as opposed to your logic of just making Orochimaru think he used it.



Itachi places Tsunade under genjutsu, she uses byakugou, and instead it will break her out of genjutsu. Since again, she's actually using the technique not fake-thinking that she is.



Ziggy Stardust said:


> Itachi is able, and has simulated reality to the point where adversaries either need 1) a sharingan 2) a trained eye to descern.  He can construct a reality where Tsuande kills a dummy while the real Itachi decapitates her and she wouldn't know any better.


This is besides the original point of saying Byakugou can break out of genjutsu, but I'll still entertain it.

Itachi's genjutsu has only ever fooled BoS Naruto (and fodder) who is canologically a dumbass when it comes to intellectual genjutsu and recognizing it.

Is it not strange that Itachi pointed his finger at the entire , yet the only person who got caught up was Naruto?

Even though it was Sakura who mentioned how he was in ?

Even in The Last, Naruto was unable to recognize he was caught under genjutsu, but it was Sakura who broke him out. Sakura being taught practically everything she knows by Tsunade, the same person who was claimed a war hero with decades load of experience and on top of that a 5 in intelligence. I find it very hard to believe he'll construct such a complex genjutsu that would fool a veteran like her, especially when she's already coming into the battle *knowing *her opponent is a genjutsu master.

But I find it even harder to believe that Itachi is decapitating Tsunade.

Sasuke's kusangi bounced right off the Raikage's 

While Tsunade's piercing durability isn't exactly 1-1 with the Raikage, it's definitely around his ballpark. She survived Mabui's teleportation ninjutsu, which only people like the Raikage can come out  without being torn to literal shreds

Tsunade walked out of it with , even saying  when asked of her condition

A kunai isn't doing jack shit here.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> When Jiraiya described the Kai method he said "you have to stop the flow of chakra as much as possible" It's not clear that her seal does this.  But even if it did, it wouldn't help her against Tsukyomi.


You're misunderstanding the entire point. Jiraiya tells Naruto that HE must stop his own chakra flow, in the assumption, there is no outside source of chakra to disrupt his.

When he mentions that in the event there is an outside source, they simply just have to pour their chakra into his and disrupt it. Byakguou is the outside source.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Santoryu (Dec 23, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> genjutsu +kunai slashes seal the deal



Best post in this thread

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 23, 2020)

didn't tsunade tank mabui's jutsu using her seal? either way, no way is a kunai killing her.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Santoryu (Dec 23, 2020)

Kunai can kill hashirama but it can't kill Tsunade? 

People need to wear clothes. 
I know unjustified covid restrictions make it hard for people, but amazon and eBay sell clothes of all sizes

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## Beyonce (Dec 23, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> didn't tsunade tank mabui's jutsu using her seal? either way, no way is a kunai killing her.


Unlikely, considering her seal was still fully intact *during* her . Unless we want to say Tsunade activated her seal *before* reaching her destination (at the speed of light), which would give her a disgustingly impressive reaction feat. But again, that's very unlikely as opposed to what actually happened



Santoryu said:


> Kunai can kill hashirama but it can't kill Tsunade?
> 
> People need to wear clothes.
> I know unjustified covid restrictions make it hard for people, but amazon and eBay sell clothes of all sizes


A kunai wielded by Hashirama stabbing himself is viable. Itachi wielding a kunai and trying to decapitate Tsunade isn't working unless you want to admit he's doing the same/or even close to the Raikage, who again, had a Kusangi bounce right off his neck.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> Naruto still used rasengan, just no on a target he could see.



I see you're walking back your original premise.  And I doubt it.  If Naruto Rasenganed and threw weapons at thin air it wouldn't have taken the team so long to realise and break him free.  Instead, he experienced about a chapter of torment.




Beyonce said:


> There's no indication that he was just standing still the entire time. His location at the beginning of the genjutsu and where he did rasengan are the same.



In the illusion, he met Itachi in the middle to "Rasengan" him.

You didn't have trouble admitting this earlier, although we already established Itachi can access the prefrontal cortex and use those memories within the illusion, which by the way, is different from extracting information in the real world.  You have to remember that Itachi isn't experiencing the illusion himself.



Beyonce said:


> Sasuke had to fool Danzo into thinking his sharingan eye was still closed, as opposed to your strategy of just straight up using genjutsu to make him think he used izanagi



Itachi is not Sasuke.



Beyonce said:


> Kakashi having to play to Zabuza's paranoia and create an illusion of him to suggest his next handseal, as opposed to your logic of making him do said hand seals and copying it since he's not "actually" doing it



Itachi is certainly not part one Kakashi.



Beyonce said:


> If genjutsu is able to fool people into fake-using jutsu, then genjutsu kai would be completely irrelevant seeing as the caster could just make them think they're using it.
> 
> Hence why Itachi had to cut off Orochimaru's arm when he tried using genjutsu kai, as opposed to your logic of just making Orochimaru think he used it.



21 year old Itachi isn't 13 year old Itachi.




Beyonce said:


> This is besides the original point of saying Byakugou can break out of genjutsu. Itachi's genjutsu has only ever fooled BoS Naruto (and fodder) who is canologically a dumbass when it comes to intellectual genjutsu and recognizing it.



I know it's besides the original point, I was counting it as an additional problem.  He fooled Deidara and Bee into attacking thin air too, and Deidara specifically trained his eye to counter this, something Tsuande hasn't done.



Beyonce said:


> Is it not strange that Itachi pointed his finger at the entire , yet the only person who got caught up was Naruto?



Umm. he pointed his finger at Naruto, and he was specifically addressing Nardo at the time too.  And it's not that strange considering Itachi has limited chakra as a clone and Nartuo is the biggest potential threat of the squad.



Beyonce said:


> Even though it was Sakura who mentioned how he was in ?



Probably because (in the real world) Naruto was standing still for some period of time while dribbling over himself.




Beyonce said:


> And even then, decapitating Tsunade is a feat I doubt Itachi can do at all against Tsunade.
> 
> Sasuke's kusangi bounced right off the Raikage's
> 
> While Tsunade's piercing durability isn't exactly 1-1 with the Raikage, it's definitely around his ballpark. She survived Mabui's teleportation ninjutsu, which only people like the Raikage can come out  without being torn to literal shreds



The 4th Raikage came out _unscathed_ in base.  So that doesn't even begin to draw a reliable comparison to his natural hardiness.  We can forget about Sasuke's inability to damage him when while he's using lightning armour.



Beyonce said:


> You're misunderstanding the entire point. Jiraiya tells Naruto that HE must stop his own chakra flow, in the assumption, there is no outside source of chakra to disrupt his.
> 
> When he mentions that in the event there is an outside source, they simply just have to pour their chakra into his and disrupt it.



NO.  He tells Naruto someone else must stop his chakra flow in the assumption that he can't do so himself.  This is why I don't think arbitrary amplifications are any substitute for the kai method.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 23, 2020)

@Beyonce The mere fact you have to try and downplay Itachi's genjutsu ability by using examples of his 13-year-old self and part one Kakashi speaks volumes to your genuine confidence in Tsunades ability to win the match.

The fact that you tried to compare Tsuande to Lightning shrouded Ay's durability (when she suffers a bad comparison with Base ay) tells me how little you want to rely on her actual feats, while on the other hand I haven't mentioned anything Itachi hasn't accomplished himself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beyonce (Dec 23, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I see you're walking back your original premise.  And I doubt it.  If Naruto Rasenganed and threw weapons at thin air it wouldn't have taken the team so long to realise and break him free.  Instead, he experienced about a chapter of torment.


Trying to capture your teammate whilist they're launching rasengans and throwing kunai isn't exactly easy. Especially if they're throwing Kunai in your original . Not to mention the fact Itachi himself is still actively .


Ziggy Stardust said:


> In the illusion, he met Itachi in the middle to "Rasengan" him.


No he didn't. He's still literally a foot away from. As opposed to his original positon 


Ziggy Stardust said:


> You didn't have trouble admitting this earlier, although we already established Itachi can access the prefrontal cortex and use those memories within the illusion, which by the way, is different from extracting information in the real world.  You have to remember that Itachi isn't experiencing the illusion himself.


I said Itachi can replicate nightmare visions. That's not at all saying Naruto is stagnant at his exact position.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> Itachi is not Sasuke.


Right because 30% Itachi with a finger genjutsu is better than Mangekyo Sasuke's sharingan genjutsu, and is able to pull off this spectacle of a genjutsu feat while Sasuke can't.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> Itachi is certainly not part one Kakashi.


30% Itachi. Whereas 100% Itachi had to use  against part 1 Kakashi as opposed to just doing him in with regular sharingan genjutsu or hell even non-sharingan genjutsu. While I understand breaking out of genjutsu =/= cancelling it, it still goes to show Kakashi isn't exactly far off 30% Itachi's level.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> 21 year old Itachi isn't 13 year old Itachi.


Again. 30% Itachi isn't pulling off a better genjutsu feat with NO SHARINGAN better than FKS Sasuke or his earlier 13 year old variant who frankly we don't even know how much better he is. For all we know Itachi's illness could've very much degraded him past his old self.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> The 4th Raikage came out _unscathed_ in base.  So that doesn't even begin to draw a reliable comparison to his natural hardiness.  We can forget about Sasuke's inability to damage him when while he's using lightning armour.


Fair point, I still don't see how regular-degular kunais from Itachi are doing jack shit to people with Ei4 and Ei3 level durability in base. Being thrown at the speed of light and only coming out with minor cuts is still an extremely impressive durability feat that frankly Kunais from Itachi aren't cutting.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> NO.  He tells Naruto someone else must stop his chakra flow in the assumption that he can't do so himself.  This is why I don't think arbitrary amplifications are any substitute for the kai method.


No. Read again.

He doesn't tell Naruto that someone must STOP his chakra flow. He tells him that someone else must SEND chakra INTO him to DISRUPT his chakra flow. It's different from being able to stop your OWN chakra flow because you actually have control of that.





Ziggy Stardust said:


> @Beyonce The mere fact you have to try and downplay Itachi's genjutsu ability by using examples of his 13-year-old self and part one Kakashi speaks volumes to your genuine confidence in Tsunades ability to win the match.


No, you're saying 30% Itachi is able to do this extreme genjutsu feat when FKS Sasuke can't and had to rely on keen observational skills to use genjutsu, which is essentially what genjutsu is. 


Ziggy Stardust said:


> The fact that you tried to compare Tsuande to Lightning shrouded Ay's durability (when she suffers a bad comparison with Base ay) tells me how little you want to rely on her actual feats, while on the other hand I haven't mentioned anything Itachi hasn't accomplished himself.


This is my bad and I concede on this. However, I still don't buy a Kunai decapitating someone who is close to base Ei4 and Ei3, just the mere fact she's able to go through teleportation at that speed without being torn to shreds tells me you'll need to up the ante from regular kunai.


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## Tanto (Dec 23, 2020)

Sakura who even surpassed Tsunade  couldn’t activate byakugo to escape Sasuke’s Genjutsu. 

 However Byakugo is supposed to be Tsunade’s saving grace

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Phenomenon (Dec 24, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> didn't tsunade tank mabui's jutsu using her seal? either way, no way is a kunai killing her.


Kunai gg should be saved for Fodder Shinobi.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 24, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> But mechanically it’s the same is it not? Bijuu floods their host with chakra to break them out of genjutsu


Itachi was playing with a curse mark Sasuke who moreover had Orochimaru himself inside him. You need an actual sentient being to do the chakra transfer.


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 24, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> He made Naruto think he used Rasengan. Naruto still had free-will and cognizant thought and was the one who used it, Itachi just set up the illusion to where Naruto thought he was hitting him.
> 
> If Itachi had such skill with genjutsu to where he knows Naruto's full arsenal and how to do it with just a simple look of his finger, again, why the hell is Kabuto having to teach him the handseals to undo
> 
> ...


Tsunade would have drowned in Dan's, Jiraiya's and her brother's blood for a decade before Itachi lets her go. Then he Amaterasu fodderises her if she can still stand.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 24, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> Trying to capture your teammate whilist they're launching rasengans and throwing kunai isn't exactly easy.



Not _Ransengans_ in the plural but _Rasengan_ in the singular.  Don't try and extrapolate with what you're not given. The first time Naruto tried to kill thin air should have been enough warning for either Sakura or Chiyo to get their shit together and act... unless of course the real Naruto isn't doing any of those things and is instead standing still like a lemming, explaining the delay in the team's response.

I'm also enjoying the very liberal use of "capture" here given what you admit below :



Beyonce said:


> No he didn't. He's still literally a foot away from.



A small factoid that should make his "capture" _exactly easy _as you put_. _



Beyonce said:


> Not to mention the fact Itachi himself is still actively .



_*actively fighting Kakashi _and not sakura, depicted in the panel kindly bought to our attention.



Beyonce said:


> I said Itachi can replicate nightmare visions.



You said, ad verbatim, that Itachi can access the prefrontal cortex where traumatic memories are stored, which is what he would need to give life to those nightmares.  And of course, if he can use memories against victims caught in the hellscape, he should also be able to make them think they're fighting too.  This is, of course, exactly what he did Naruto... meaning the proof is in the





Beyonce said:


> That's not at all saying Naruto is stagnant at his exact position.



You might not be saying it, but it is true.

The final nail in the coffin is that we see Illusion Naruto 
While the real Nardo is just 

He can make them think they're acting in the genjutsu when they're doing nothing at all in the real world.  He did the same to Kabuto with Izanami.  He can also control the actions of his victims during battle, such as with Deidara.



Beyonce said:


> Right because 30% Itachi with a finger genjutsu is better than Mangekyo Sasuke's sharingan genjutsu, and is able to pull off this spectacle of a genjutsu feat while Sasuke can't.



Right indeed.  Itachi's natural talent isn't defined by the arbitrary limits of Sasuke's imagination with the Sharingan.  The same goes for any Illusionist that develops something sans Kekie Genkai.  Perhaps you should tell ma & pa they're not actually using genjutsu when trapping 3 pains, the same goes for the Trolllkage, Gengetsu etc.  What you're doing is the equivalent of denying Sasuke Kirin because MS Itachi's techniques can't bust a mountain.  Itachi has more feats, hype and better databook stats then Sasuke and P1 Kakashi. When Kabuto was reviving the most notorious ninja in history only Itachi was deemed capable of controlling multiple targets at enormous ranges, because of his skill.



Beyonce said:


> tachi had to use  against part 1 Kakashi as opposed to just doing him in with regular sharingan genjutsu or hell even non-sharingan genjutsu. *While I understand breaking out of genjutsu =/= cancelling it, *



I think you meant to say that breaking out of genjutsu doesn't equate to parity in _casting it_, nothing else really needs to be said on that note.  3T Sasuke broke Tsukomyi, but wasn't able to produce anything that condensed time with the MS.  Deidara trained his own eye to see through genjutsu but has fuck all means of casting it.  Genjutsu resistance is a separate branch of power. 




Beyonce said:


> Fair point, I still don't see how regular-degular kunais from Itachi are doing jack shit to people with Ei4 and Ei3 level durability in base. Being thrown at the speed of light and only coming out with minor cuts is still an extremely impressive durability feat that frankly Kunais from Itachi aren't cutting.



You haven't substantiated partiy with the Ei's.  So far you've come up with this - Tsunade gets hurt against something that fails to scratch the Raikage, and said wounds necessitate Creation Rebirth, a skill that's only used when necessary due to drawbacks.  That doesn't tell anyone how well she holds up to the boys, because you've failed to establish the weakest thing than can pierce them.

Now, the raikage comparison doesn't work.  But I'll give you this - that she could survive a light speed journey without dying probably speaks something to her hardiness.  Perhaps Itachi can't decapitate her, giving her round one.  And maybe you're not as much of an idiot as I once thought, this debate has been somewhat fun.  However, Round 2 is Itachi's, and the arguments against Ama and Tsuku are laughable af.





Beyonce said:


> He doesn't tell Naruto that someone must STOP his chakra flow. He tells him that someone else must SEND chakra INTO him to DISRUPT his chakra flow. It's different from being able to stop your OWN chakra flow because you actually have control of that.



"Stop", "disrupt" and "disturb" are being used as synonyms my boy(?)


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## Duhul10 (Dec 24, 2020)

Itachi copies her genes with the sharingan and proceeds to neg diff with his new, cool rinnegan.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Steven (Dec 24, 2020)

Shitachi is still wanked as hell hä?

Tsunade is physical far above Shitachi´s paygrade and knows how to deal with Genjutsu


She stomps him into the ground and calls it a day

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Lewd 3


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## ItachiHokage (Dec 24, 2020)

Acno said:


> Shitachi is still wanked as hell hä?
> 
> Tsunade is physical far above Shitachi´s paygrade and knows how to deal with Genjutsu
> 
> ...


Lol Itachi destroys her with genjutsu and she isn't landing a hit on someone so fast. He's out of her league

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bob74h (Dec 24, 2020)

ItachiHokage said:


> Lol Itachi destroys her with genjutsu and she isn't landing a hit on someone so fast. He's out of her league


Yet he booked from jiraya.
Totally out of her league btw

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Steven (Dec 24, 2020)

ItachiHokage said:


> Lol Itachi destroys her with genjutsu and she isn't landing a hit on someone so fast. He's out of her league


>ItachiHokage
>Lol

Itachi running away from Jiraya and Tsunade is in the same ballpark as Jiraya.Hence,Tsunade>Loltachi

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 24, 2020)

Acno said:


> >ItachiHokage
> >Lol
> 
> Itachi running away from Jiraya and Tsunade is in the same ballpark as Jiraya.Hence,Tsunade>Loltachi


SMH. Unironically believing Itachi actually wanted to hurt one of Konoha's better shinobi.
If people wanted to, they can wank Itachi's KCM Naruto Taijutus feats but he can still fodderise the Sannin without it.
Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Tsunade, and Itachi made a fool of him as a teen and yes Itachi's Kunai amputates and kills

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 24, 2020)

Too many Tsunade wankers.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## ItachiHokage (Dec 24, 2020)

Acno said:


> >ItachiHokage
> >Lol
> 
> Itachi running away from Jiraya and Tsunade is in the same ballpark as Jiraya.Hence,Tsunade>Loltachi


Ignoring that Itachi doesn't want to hurt Jiraiya otherwise he would've beat him like oro...running away means nothing even Jiraiya himself ran against 3 paths so can you tell ne how that fight ended? But to entertain you Oro ran away from Itachi and Tsunade is in the same ballpark hence Itachi > lolnade


Also lmao at Tsunade being in the same ballpark as Jiraiya but it's not like that matters much when the strongest Sannin was embarrassed against Itachi.

Itachi > Orochi > Tsunade
Itachi > Jiraiya > Tsunade
Itachi > Jiraiya = Orochi = Tsunade

The bottom line?

Itachi > Sannin


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 24, 2020)

Why are there 8 pages of this?

Itachi solos as always

Reactions: Like 4


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## Itachі (Dec 24, 2020)

Acno said:


> >ItachiHokage
> >Lol
> 
> Itachi running away from Jiraya and Tsunade is in the same ballpark as Jiraya.Hence,Tsunade>Loltachi

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ItachiHokage (Dec 24, 2020)

Lol don't bother with him typical Itachi hater

They say Itachi ran from Jiraiya so he's weaker yet even Jiraiya ran from 3 paths so I guess the 3 paths > Jiraiya

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 24, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> because it is not the partner method.


But it works exactly the same in every way.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> So let me ask you a simple question, what does Tsunade have to do break the seal?


Think.


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

This is still being discussed  
Tsunade stomps, unless you think Itachi is stronger than 5 Madara's legged susanos

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> This is still being discussed
> Tsunade stomps, unless you think Itachi is stronger than 5 Madara's legged susanos


If only every thread could be resolved by ABC logic.
She has no counter to Amaterasu, Genjutsu


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> If only every thread could be resolved by ABC logic.
> She has no counter to Amaterasu, Genjutsu


We've already been over this 
It just that you wont admit she does because of your bias

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> We've already been over this
> It just that you wont admit she does because of your bias


I don't have a bias. I accept that she is one of most durable and destructive Ninja but Itachi is > Sannin level because of his haxes and feats.


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## Duhul10 (Dec 25, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> I don't have a bias. I accept that she is one of most durable and destructive Ninja but Itachi is > Sannin level because of his haxes and feats.


There is no Sannin level.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> We've already been over this
> It just that you wont admit she does because of your bias


No one has a counter to Tsukoyomi unless they have a Sharingan.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> No one has a counter to Tsukoyomi unless they have a Sharingan.


Or unless they already negged it with their weakest medical technique too

Reactions: Like 1 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 2


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Or unless they already negged it with their weakest medical technique too


When did Tsunade find a way to perform surgery while in a coma?


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> When did Tsunade find a way to perform surgery while in a coma?


Byakugo regeneration is automatic so ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Byakugo regeneration is automatic so ...


And that fixes Tsukoyomi because...?


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> And that fixes Tsukoyomi because...?


Because her regular shosen already fixed it and byakugo is the strongest medical technique ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Because her regular shosen already fixed it and byakugo is the strongest medical technique ?


No, she healed Sasuke and Kakashi from the coma, not from Tsukoyomi.
The Tsukoyomi was already over, that was just the aftermath.


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> No, she healed Sasuke and Kakashi from the coma, not from Tsukoyomi.
> The Tsukoyomi was already over, that was just the aftermath.


Yeah 
Itachi will use Tsukyomi on her (assuming he gets the opportunity to, ofc lol)
She feints or barely stands still (most likely the later) after the mental damage done to her 
Byakugo heals the after effects and she will be in fightning condition again

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Yeah
> Itachi will use Tsukyomi on her (assuming he gets the opportunity to, ofc lol)
> She feints or barely stands still (most likely the later) after the mental damage done to her
> Byakugo heals the after effects and she will be in fightning condition again


Or he just makes his Tsukyomi last more than one second and uses Susanoo magic sword to insta seal her?
Or just insta seal her while she feints or barely stands still?


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## ThirdRidoku (Dec 25, 2020)

SakuraLover16 said:


> he doesn’t need to heal any mental disorders I don’t really see what that has to do with anything.





SakuraLover16 said:


> I’m not worried about personality disorders because the main threat of the jutsu is falling unconscious.


You aren't really listening to what I said at all. The main threat isn't just falling unconscious, period, so you absolutely need to worry about personality disorders. You not worrying about it doesn't change the fact that it's a strong possibility. Kakashi/Sasuke not obtaining a personality disorder  from the specific versions of the jutsu they were hit with* doesn't mean the jutsu *won't be able to achieve such an effect.  People deal with different forms of trauma differently. And as already stated, Tsykuyomi's power isn't a static property. Itachi used it for 24 hours/72 hours in those instances, which is nothing compared to even a year, or decade. And his high-end feat is 80 years in the novels, and we were never given an upper limit as a matter of fact, all we are told is he can freely manipulate time in the manga. 

In addition
"The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command*. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency."

*


SakuraLover16 said:


> Chapter 257 page 7 and 8 Kakashi speaks his analyses out loud about the massive chakra cost in which Itachi compliments him on figuring it out from their one battle. Kakashi also recalls Kisame warning Itachi that overusing his eyes was dangerous.


This is a non-sequitur. The jutsu being chakra taxing is irrelevant as you are exaggerating the degree to which it is.  Itachi used Susano'o  long enough to battle oro and seal hydra and then deal with final attacks from Sasuke, and like at least 3 more Amaterasu after using Tskuyomi against Sasuke.  And Susano'o is quite obviously the most taxing of the three jutsu as it's the only one that damaged FKS Sasuke to the point he was coughing up blood and every cell in his body was aching the whole time.

You're claiming the guy can't hold the jutsu long enough to make an opening on Tsunade even if he doesn't apply massive time dilation ( which likely adds to the cost) when he he held it for a few real world minutes against Hebi Sasuke on panel.

And in P1, he used two  tskuyomi and amaterasu after dividing his* chakra by over  half. *

But he can't use one Tsykuyomi against Tsunade for mind control for a few minutes, when LESS than that is what's needed to get a finishing blow in.




SakuraLover16 said:


> Itachi said he intended to use it to gather that information from Kabuto however such evidence gathering should have been possible with the regular Sharingan as well. I also don’t remember putting forth an argument that dealt with the passage of time





SakuraLover16 said:


> Tsukuyomi can control the passage of time not mind control a person. If I’m not mistaken. He used his regular genjutsu to get Kabuto to stop edo tensei. Which he states in chapter 587 page 1




Itachi explicitly states he will have Kabuto tell him the seals while in tskuyomi, then have him undo the jutsu while keeping him trapped in the Nightmare Realm. doing these things takes time, as kabuto needs to speak aloud in the real world to tell him the seals, and cast the seals with his real body for the jutsu to take effect, which all happen much longer than in instant.

Tskyuyomi doesn't just controls the passage of time. Tskuyomi controls all mass and time in the time-space and all images shown.

For the third time, he _ freely_ manipulates time (perception of time to be completely accurate) , meaning he can do whatever he wants in terms of how the time passage in genjutsu compares to the real world.

Tskyuomi is still an MS genjutsu and can be used for the same basic functions like any other MS genjutsu can. You're making up limitations here that go against what Itachi said on panel.




SakuraLover16 said:


> You’re under the impression that Tsunade may not have already relived it over and over again without help. I would be more inclined to agree with you if she hadn’t already gotten through her trauma.





SakuraLover16 said:


> Never made an argument stating otherwise I believe. People can still function normally with depression as well so I don’t see how that would be a factor.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> well, all tsunade need to worry about is the comatose part here.
> 
> having a mental disorder won't stop tsunade from winning.



Most people don't experience themselves trapped in a closed-off space for years on end being exposed AND RELIVING their worst fears. You need to think about practicality. Tsunade *remembering *the events of that day  on a regular isn't the same thing as being forced *to physically live through it over and over with no hope of escape.* It's not an   equivalent scenario. Sasuke was physically reliving the events of Uchiha massacre for 24 hours straight with no break, not just recalling them periodically over a long period of time. 

Tsunade didn't function well with depression in the slightest. Kabuto had his way with her while she was depressed, and could have went for a finishing blow had he wanted in that time. Itachi can do the same.  we aren't talking about mild depression, we are talking SEVERE depression.


Tsunade getting through her trauma doesn't mean trauma doesn't come back. her initial trauma was only short- lived in comparison. This one is gonna happen on repeat for years on end. And it took her decades to overcome the first trauma alone. She only seems normal when she is introduced in canon because she has had years to recover. Her memories of Kawaki/Dan were only triggered at the sight of blood by the time we are introduced to her in the manga, when several decades had already passed from the events that caused her trauma. Before that she could have been worse for all we know, and had slowly recovered to the point where she is fine outside of the blood stimulus being exposed to her.

So no, Tsunade having decades to make a full recovery, and then making a final push when Naruto's life was on the line isn't applicable here, given she won't have decades to make a second recovery.

Tsunade cried when Jiraiya died as well, so no she isn't some gal with immunity to boiling emotions during bad experiences. She has emotions, and those emotions can be exploited over a long enough time period, and it's not just the emotions.

Itachi nearly broke Naruto, someone whose willpower inspired Jiraiya to come back from the death, with just a minute or so of nightmares from his closest friends, and would have broken him entirely if not for Sakura/Chiyo with by far the weakest genjutsu he has showcased, as it was only at 30 percent of his normal power and didn't use his Sharingan.


Scale up to Tskuyomi and it's a different case.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Bob74h (Dec 25, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> She has no counter to Amaterasu, Genjutsu


If itachi could not body jiraya with those techniques then he would not body his superior tsunade with those same things
sannin tier is too much for someone like itachi


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## KakashixMeixShizune (Dec 25, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> If itachi could not body jiraya with those techniques then he would not body his superior tsunade with those same things
> sannin tier is too much for someone like itachi


Cmon man Itachi didn't actually wanted to fight Jiraiya. He said those things so that his cover as a Konoha agent would remain.


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## Bob74h (Dec 25, 2020)

KakashixMeixShizune said:


> Cmon man Itachi didn't actually wanted to fight Jiraiya. He said those things so that his cover as a Konoha agent would remain.


Thats headcanon and itachi's internal monologue even states that the frog tongues were fast meaning that even jiraya's most basic jutsu intimidated itachi while a basic punch from tsunade nearly killed the jman


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Bob74h said:


> If itachi could not body jiraya with those techniques then he would not body his superior tsunade with those same things


He didn't use any of those techniques against Jiraiya.


Bob74h said:


> sannin tier is too much for someone like itachi


Proven by Itachi literally one shotting a sannin without lifting a finger.


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Or he just makes his Tsukyomi last more than one second and uses Susanoo magic sword to insta seal her?
> Or just insta seal her while she feints or barely stands still?


When did Itachi use Tskyomi simultaneously with susano or any MS for that matter when alive lol? A single ms technique already takes a big toll on him
And she will barely stand still just for a micro second, her resiliency is way superior to kakashis and her healing is instantaneous. She will handle the after effects way better than Kakashi did

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## GrandBenja (Dec 25, 2020)

@ThirdRidoku These are good points, actually.
If Itachi actually were the sadistic sociopath he was introduced as, his Tsukuyomi could have led to interesting character "development" for his victims. And as you explained, Tsunade might actually have a hard time dealing with this, despite being physically close to immortal.

It really is a shame Itachi ended up being a good guy. I would have loved to see him inflicting the traumas you're describing - while Kisame is just smiling in the background. He had so much potential…

The "trauma" option might be slightly limited by Itachi's knowledge of his victim though. For example, he knew exactly what he needed to show Sasuke to break him - the Uchiha slaughter. Against Kakashi, however, he went for a generic torture scene, as he probably didn't know about Rin's and Obito's (apparent) death. It appears Tsukuyomi doesn't include a full mind-probing, so regarding Tsunade, Itachi's ability to break her might depend on what he knows of her past…


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> When did Itachi use Tskyomi simultaneously with susano or any MS for that matter when alive lol? A single ms technique already takes a big toll on him


Sasuke did it literally the first time he ever used Susanoo. Why wouldn't Itachi be able to?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> And she will barely stand still just for a micro second, her resiliency is way superior to kakashis and her healing is instantaneous. She will handle the after effects way better than Kakashi did



Nah.  Kakashi said Itachi could have killed him even though his Sharingan gives him resistance.  Tsunade can't heal from instadeath.  But regardless, he can literally control her with the Tsukuyomi and make her undo the byakuyo seal.

 To many applications for fodder like tsuande to effectively counter.


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Sasuke did it literally the first time he ever used Susanoo. Why wouldn't Itachi be able to?


Well Sasuke has better stamina feats than Itachi upon gaining MS 
But what instance are you even referring to? Sasuke doesnt have tsukyomi in the first place so whatever the situation was, its not appliable to itachi


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Well Sasuke has better stamina feats than Itachi upon gaining MS



Sasuke couldn't even hold v4 for a second even after being healed by Karin. 

Sasuke surpasses Itachi with EMS like the databook says.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Well Sasuke has better stamina feats than Itachi upon gaining MS
> But what instance are you even referring to? Sasuke doesnt have tsukyomi in the first place so whatever the situation was, its not appliable to itachi


He used Amaterasu on Susanoo against A.

He may have better stamina feats, but not enough to go from using Amaterasu on susanoo without any show of special fatigue to being unable to do it due to lack of stamina.
And I'm not so sure about those better feats, IIRC his Susanoo couldn't last for any time


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> He used Amaterasu on Susanoo against A.
> 
> He may have better stamina feats, but not enough to go from using Amaterasu on susanoo without any show of special fatigue to being unable to do it due to lack of stamina.
> And I'm not so sure about those better feats, IIRC his Susanoo couldn't last for any time


Well Itachi was sick so he obviously has "way" more drawbacks than Sasuke who was fresh with the mangekyo sharingan yeah 
Hence why he never demonstrated the ability to use two ms techniques simultaneously and was shown sweating and fatigued most of the time after using a single one


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## Lyren (Dec 25, 2020)

@Tanto u mad boy?  
Dont forget to hug your itachi figurine before sleeping

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Well Itachi was sick so he obviously has "way" more drawbacks than Sasuke who was fresh with the mangekyo sharingan yeah
> Hence why he never demonstrated the ability to use two ms techniques simultaneously and was shown sweating and fatigued most of the time after using a single one


And yet Itachi could hold a full Susanoo while Sasuke couldn't.

And this was just so Itachi could kill Tsunade in less than 5 seconds, he can still just use Susanoo with the unbreakable shield and unstoppable sword and still fuck her up.
Also, unless you think Tsunade can recover from Tsukoyomi faster than literal lightning, Itachi can just use tsukoyomi, set up the susanoo and one shot her with the sword.


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## Tanto (Dec 25, 2020)

Lyren said:


> @Tanto u mad boy?
> Dont forget to hug your itachi figurine before sleeping



A hit dog will holler

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bob74h (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Proven by Itachi literally one shotting a sannin without lifting a finger.


A weakened orochimaru that has lost his arms and he's literally the weakest sannin considering feats.
itachi beat orochimaru due to hax however orochimaru is physically stronger due to his fight with KN0 naruto


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## Bob74h (Dec 25, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> He didn't use any of those techniques against Jiraiya.


He couldt because he ran out of chakra


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## SakuraLover16 (Dec 25, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You aren't really listening to what I said at all. The main threat isn't just falling unconscious, period, so you absolutely need to worry about personality disorders. You not worrying about it doesn't change the fact that it's a strong possibility. Kakashi/Sasuke not obtaining a personality disorder from the specific versions of the jutsu they were hit with* doesn't mean the jutsu *won't be able to achieve such an effect. People deal with different forms of trauma differently. And as already stated, Tsykuyomi's power isn't a static property. Itachi used it for 24 hours/72 hours in those instances, which is nothing compared to even a year, or decade. And his high-end feat is 80 years in the novels, and we were never given an upper limit as a matter of fact, all we are told is he can freely manipulate time in the manga.
> 
> In addition
> "The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command*. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency."*


While I appreciate this really long post it’s been over a week since we last had a conversation I’ll reply but likely not to the best of my ability. I am tired of the battledome and only come back in spurts now. Please forgive me if this response seems inadequate.

Your argument the part about mental disorders is based heavily on the assumption that upon experiencing Tsukuyomi Tsunade will not only develop some sort of mental disorder but that the disorder will be debilitating enough to end the fight. Firstly while people do experience trauma differently the effect that it has on a person also differs case by case. The fact that Sasuke and Kakashi didn’t develop a mental disorder does not help you in your assumption that Tsunade will. In fact based on what we’ve been shown I could say that it isn’t likely based on Sasuke and Kakashi’s response.


ThirdRidoku said:


> This is a non-sequitur. The jutsu being chakra taxing is irrelevant as you are exaggerating the degree to which it is. Itachi used Susano'o long enough to battle oro and seal hydra and then deal with final attacks from Sasuke, and like at least 3 more Amaterasu after using Tskuyomi against Sasuke. And Susano'o is quite obviously the most taxing of the three jutsu as it's the only one that damaged FKS Sasuke to the point he was coughing up blood and every cell in his body was aching the whole time.


After using it against Sasuke and Kakashi Kisame warned him over his Sharingan usage because of it. I’m not saying he is just going to fall over and die but it’s usage is really taxing. Also just because he used Amaterasu three times doesn’t mean it’s greater than the cost of Tsukuyomi (not that I can give you a solid cost I just don’t think it’s fair to compare the two techniques because even though they are both MS that doesn’t mean they share the same cost). If I’m not mistaken FKS Sasuke used Susanoo multiple times against multiple people


ThirdRidoku said:


> You're claiming the guy can't hold the jutsu long enough to make an opening on Tsunade even if he doesn't apply massive time dilation ( which likely adds to the cost) when he he held it for a few real world minutes against Hebi Sasuke on panel.
> 
> And in P1, he used two tskuyomi and amaterasu after dividing his* chakra by over half. *
> 
> But he can't use one Tsykuyomi against Tsunade for mind control for a few minutes, when LESS than that is what's needed to get a finishing blow in.


I don’t think I ever claimed anywhere that he couldn’t create an opening and capitalize on it. I’ve never heard Tsukuyomi lasting minutes seconds yes but not minutes. Also in part 1 if he used it after his clone was destroyed or after he dispelled the jutsu than that quantity of chakra that the clone didn’t use is returned back to him.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Itachi explicitly states he will have Kabuto tell him the seals while in tskuyomi, then have him undo the jutsu while keeping him trapped in the Nightmare Realm. doing these things takes time, as kabuto needs to speak aloud in the real world to tell him the seals, and cast the seals with his real body for the jutsu to take effect, which all happen much longer than in instant.
> 
> Tskyuyomi doesn't just controls the passage of time. Tskuyomi controls all mass and time in the time-space and all images shown.
> 
> ...


That doesn’t take as long as you are making it out to be. I never disagreed with how Tsukuyomi worked as far as changing the perception of time. Begrudgingly I have to concede about the mind control thing even though I take it as coercion by manipulating those five sense (example being making your opponent believe they won so they can undo a jutsu).


ThirdRidoku said:


> Most people don't experience themselves trapped in a closed-off space for years on end being exposed AND RELIVING their worst fears. You need to think about practicality. Tsunade *remembering *the events of that day on a regular isn't the same thing as being forced *to physically live through it over and over with no hope of escape.* It's not an equivalent scenario. Sasuke was physically reliving the events of Uchiha massacre for 24 hours straight with no break, not just recalling them periodically over a long period of time.
> 
> Tsunade didn't function well with depression in the slightest. Kabuto had his way with her while she was depressed, and could have went for a finishing blow had he wanted in that time. Itachi can do the same. we aren't talking about mild depression, we are talking SEVERE depression.
> 
> ...


I don’t think I like how you are making numerous assumptions regarding Tsunade’s mental state when our only two paneled uses didn’t result in any permanent mental effects. Tsunade suffered from PTSD due to the back to back deaths of her brother and lover and her powerlessness to save them. I just think there is silliness in assuming that she would acquire the same trauma she got over and take twenty more years to get over it again it’s just extremely unlikely. Kabuto had his way with Tsunade because she had been out of practice for over twenty years and he still was overwhelmed by her. Upon regaining her will of fire what plagued her before was no longer a problem.

This is not to say I don’t think Tsukuyomi is dangerous I just feel like something like Amaterasu or his Susanoo blade is the most likely to take her out. I’ve never argued for her winning against MS Itachi because I honestly don’t see how unless she possum shots.

And....I’m done. This literally took hours to write because of my ADD and when I went to post this the first time a huge amount of my progress didn’t save over. Honestly if you want I can officially concede or something I’m not suited for long drawn out posts like I used to be so ultimately most of my day ends up being taken up by this.


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## AnbuHokage63 (Dec 26, 2020)

Beyonce said:


> Location: grassy field
> Distance: 30m
> Mindset: IC but with killing intent
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...


R1: Tsunade gets beheaded 
R2: Gets burnt alive/ Tsukiyomied
In both rounds she gets low diffed.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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