# Dlanor A. Knox (Umineko) Vs Saber (Fate)



## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

*Red Key (Umineko) Vs Avalon (Fate)*

Wanted to test Red Key vs Avalon. This isn't exactly a match (since by stats, Dlanor seem to be superior), but to see whose ability would trump in a clash.

Here ya go.
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Vs

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How does this go?

Edit: Title edited in order to avoid further misunderstanding.


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## AliceKumo (Mar 29, 2013)

You kidding right?

Saber or any Servant for that matter get destroyed.


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## MAPSK (Mar 29, 2013)

Even speed equalized, this match is a terrible idea


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

As I've stated in the OP, this isn't a match between the characters but between the Red Key and Avalon. I know fully well that Dlanor would be able to solo 99% of the Nasuverse.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2013)

Did you even read the text for the Red Key

Obligatory:


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## Byrd (Mar 29, 2013)

really?

You were better off putting Saber against one of her sisters


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

So the Red Key should be considered Multiversal? Since Avalon seems to be unaffected by anything else.

Then again, I am not sure how would Gae Bolg affect Avalon either.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2013)

... Avalon isn't multiversal.


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## Byrd (Mar 29, 2013)

avalon being multiversal


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## lokoxDZz (Mar 29, 2013)

Avalon multiversal.... Wut?


Dlanor rapes every servant that comes for her


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

What I meant is that Avalon basically creates an impenetrable dimension that defends against attacks even from parallel universes. So I guess the Red Key needed to have something akin to a Multiversal range in order to bypass it.


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## lokoxDZz (Mar 29, 2013)

Gameline said:


> What I meant is that Avalon basically creates an impenetrable dimension that defends against attacks even from parallel universes. So I guess the Red Key needed to have something akin to a Multiversal range in order to bypass it.



No. Besides red key its a conceptual weapon it doesn't matter if defends from parallel universes its impenetrable it ignores everything,nothing can protect against a conceptual atack


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

I see. Looks like Red Key is way more powerful than I imagined. Would Arcueid or ORT be able to tank it?

On another note, how would Gae Bolg act against Avalon?


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## OtherGalaxy (Mar 29, 2013)

I don't think anyone bar Akasha would have any luck with that Red Key


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## Crimson King (Mar 29, 2013)

What's next, The Shrike vs a crippled kid with brain damage?


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## familyparka (Mar 29, 2013)

Quality Thread


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

What the FUCK?

Dlanor can practically solo Nasuverse, barring Akasha.


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## Nevermind (Mar 29, 2013)

Shades of 2012 for sure.

April, you cannot come fast enough.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

I mean, she's practically next to Will as far as her standing goes.


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

I wonder why so many people seem to consider this thread as a direct match between Dlanor and Saber.

Is the title the only thing most people read these days?


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## Byrd (Mar 29, 2013)

Because Sabler Avalon isn't saving her from Dlanor thats why... they are worlds apart.
You obviously don't know the rules behind the red truth, which is basically the red key... and even then the red key is under restrictions due to how powerful and broken it really is


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

Considering rule 2 of the Knox Decalogue is built into the Red Key...



> Knox's 2nd
> 
> It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique.



And there's the Red Key's full description...



> Textual definition of the novel
> 
> A weapon for emergencies used by official Inquisitors of Heresy belonging to Eiserne Jungfrau. Dlanor's primary weapon. Unlike a normal weapon, whose purpose is to cause physical damage, this special tool is known as a conceptual weapon, and it is used to deny the existence of concepts.
> Regardless of whether the target is physical, mental or conceptual, it is impossible to use any defensive concept, such as physical barriers, mental isolation, and conceptual inheritance, to defend against this weapon. Because the concepts themselves are denied, even the concept of resisting an attack does not exist, and it is impossible for the target to endure regardless of their stamina. Furthermore, all supernatural methods of buying time, such as teleportation, time reversal, revivals, and inheritance are impossible. Because denials of concepts conform to verdict procedures dictated by the Great Court, all future concepts that disobey them will be denied immediately. In addition, when the Red Key forms a complete Barrier, all concepts of evasion cannot be successful.
> ...


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## lokoxDZz (Mar 29, 2013)

Gameline said:


> I wonder why so many people seem to consider this thread as a direct match between Dlanor and Saber.
> 
> Is the title the only thing most people read these days?



Its not just like dlanor vs saber,you put a conceptual weapon against a weapon,dlanor alone with redkey can solo nasuverse actuallly pretty easly maybe bar by akash but i doubt it,the gap of diference from redkey is a way more powerfull than everything and anything in the nasuverse,so its look like you want a godstomp against nasuverse(bar akasha here maybe)


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

I mean even without the Red Key, she can still use her Blue Key normally. Plus having access to the Red Truth which really negates the idea of even having the Red Key in the first place.

Even then her raw stats still backhands the verse more or less. 

Hell, nobody can particularly hurt her since she practically no sold Battler's Golden Longsword.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

As for Avalon, it's multi-dimensional numbnuts.

Not exactly good against something that auto-shutdown defenses, or the supernatural for that matter.


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

Yeah, I hadn't understood full well the extend of a conceptual weapon's power. I thought the matchup between the two abilities would be akin to "The Strongest Spear against The Strongest Shield". Guess conceptual weapons are on a class of their own.

Still, no one has an idea of how Gae Bolg would fare against Avalon?


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## OtherGalaxy (Mar 29, 2013)

Avalon's supposed to slip Sahbray into another dimension of some sorts right?
Or so I've heard
Has GB ever countered something like that?


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## Asune (Mar 29, 2013)

Ok here is the thing

Red key is the ultimate conceptual weapon wield by Dlanor A. Knox

1) It deny any defensive concept (the concept of resisting the attack doesn't even exists)
2) Deny the evasion
3) Deny the use of barriers, escapes like isolation, conceptual inheritance, etc.
4) It also denies method of buying time.

In other words, a single slash is required to win.

Even with speed equalized, Dlanor just has to swing her blade, Saber wouldn't had time to react before being hit

Now regarding Avalon.
Let me point first, that Red Key can form a barrier to prevent any method of escape.
Meaning is useless.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

I mean it's comparable to the Golden Longsword and we've seen how strong that is. Same with Will's Archbishop Sword. 

This is pretty much a weapon in the hands of someone in the universal range, debatable, against something that performs a Musou Tensei and shown at best city level defenses with multi-dimensional properties.

This is like asking a match between the Ultimate Nullifier against the Death Star's shields.


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## Amae (Mar 29, 2013)

Saber is sentenced to death. I am curious about the limits of Avalon, though, since it's capable of blocking all five Magics.


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

What are exactly the limits of Red Key then? I mean, Dlanor was able to survive the Golden Sword, which had about the same destructive capacity.

As for Avalon, should its limits be defined as "Best Nasuverse's shield"? I guess it should be able to block anything from its own verse, though I still am unsure about Gae Bolg and it's causality reversal thing.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

Amae said:


> Saber is sentenced to death. I am curious about the limits of Avalon, though, since it's capable of blocking all five Magics.





> Its function as a Noble Phantasm is an "absolute defense" that completely shields its user in the domain of fairies, Avalon, the unreachable utopia that Arthur dreamed of and was said to have gone to after her death. It is the greatest protection in the world that goes beyond defending or reflecting, completely isolating its user in a world completely separate from the regular world. The scabbard dissipates into countless tiny particles in the air and engulfs the user to become a "portable fortress" that shuts out all interference. It is the Bounded Field of the tranquil domain of fairies that keeps out all filth from the outside world, and allows nothing to harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon. The individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, transliners from parallel worlds, and multidimensional communication as far as the sixth dimension. It is on the level of true magic, an actual true magic in itself, that transcends all magecraft, and not even the Five Magics can overcome the barrier.



Which still doesn't change that it hasn't shown anything to defend against something like the Red Key.



> What are exactly the limits of Red Key then?



I just said it.



> I mean it's comparable to the Golden Longsword and we've seen how strong that is. Same with Will's Archbishop Sword.
> 
> This is pretty much a weapon in the hands of someone in the universal range, debatable, against something that performs a Musou Tensei and shown at best city level defenses with multi-dimensional properties.
> 
> This is like asking a match between the Ultimate Nullifier against the Death Star's shields.


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## Amae (Mar 29, 2013)

> Which still doesn't change that it hasn't shown anything to defend against something like the Red Key.



Yeah, I knew all of that already. I meant like against an opposing force from another verse.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

Then it'd be hard to hurt her unless you're faster than her or more broken.


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

Universal? That's quite impressive. The VN didn't exactly portray it as some sort of Ultimate Weapon. Then again conceptual weapons seem to be in a completely different class.

In that case, what is the strongest being in Umineko the Nasuverse (bar the nearly featless Akasha) would be able to defeat?


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## TehChron (Mar 29, 2013)

Musou Rosa?

Mahou Chef Gouda?

Base Kinzo maybe?


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## Byrd (Mar 29, 2013)

It would have to be one of the family members (except Maria & Battler) or probably the weaker demons (but they are as strong as the person who summons them usually).

I don't think anyone in Nasu can handle a witch


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

By EP8's feats, didn't Rosa, Kyrie and Rudolf completely dominate Erika?

So, characters from Virgilia and up is out of Nasuverse's league then?


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## Byrd (Mar 29, 2013)

They didn't dominate Erika... but Rosa was keeping up with her as she teleported around

Virgilia and above literally are faster than the majority of Nasu (from what I remember) and have the hax to deal with a great many of them


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

I see, I guess my perception of that scene from EP8 was a bit wrong then (probably from my desire to see Erika get some payback).


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## familyparka (Mar 29, 2013)

Asune said:


> Ok here is the thing
> 
> Red key is the ultimate conceptual weapon wield by Dlanor A. Knox
> 
> ...



This makes me wonder.

Would Void Shiki be a fair fight for her?


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## Asune (Mar 29, 2013)

Not at all.


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## Gameline (Mar 29, 2013)

Not really, since Nasu stated that Shiki would only manage a defensive match against an average servant, while Dlanor, according to most people, would solo everything barring Akasha in the Nasuverse.


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## Asune (Mar 29, 2013)

Well...
As Willy says.
Nasuverse is the battle of concepts.
And well Dlanor has a very broken conceptual weapon.
She doesn't really have a DC, her attacks hit directly the existence of the target (it's concept).
Although not accurate, neither exactly the same. You can picture her attack's damage as doing a similar effect that Mystic eyes of death perception, and similar to Gae Bolg regardless at how can be defended or evaded (Again, just a comparison, as both are different)


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

Actually it would be powerscaled from Battler and Will so her having no DC is not exactly correct.


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## Asune (Mar 29, 2013)

True, won't deny that.
But it isn't big deal, when her haxx is above what could be her DC.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 29, 2013)

It's the fact that she can hurt those on that level that really gives her hax that edge.

Otherwise if she was way way weaker than it wouldn't really mean much.


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## Kazu (Mar 29, 2013)

I think Avalon can defend against most Hax, and DC up until Planetbusting (No gaia->No Fairyland-> No avalon)


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 29, 2013)

Didn't I pit Dlanor against a universal cosmic horror from Doctor Who not too long ago?

With uncertain results?

Somehow I think Saber is a little out of her league.


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## Byrd (Mar 29, 2013)

Saber is wayy out of her league right here


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## familyparka (Mar 30, 2013)

Gameline said:


> Not really, since Nasu stated that Shiki would only manage a defensive match against an average servant, while Dlanor, according to most people, would solo everything barring Akasha in the Nasuverse.



Yeah, he did stated that. But based on feats, that's bullshit...


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