# Kimimaro vs Itachi



## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

Location: Sannin battleground
Distance: 100 meters
Knowledge: full
mindset: IC going for kill
Stipulations: both combatants are healthy, MS, izanagi and izanami are restricted


who wins?


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## Rocky (May 6, 2014)

Full knowledge was a admirable attempt, but that doesn't save Kimimaro from Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu.


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## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Full knowledge was a admirable attempt, but that doesn't save Kimimaro from Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu.



why is that so?


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## Rocky (May 6, 2014)

Because Itachi will just force eye contact with his superior speed and Sharginan enhanced movements. Kimimaro hasn't trained to fight looking at the feet like Gai, so his combat effectiveness will be diminished.


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## Risyth (May 6, 2014)

As wanked as I've said Kimimaro is, at least he gets his (somewhat futile) respect.


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## Cognitios (May 6, 2014)

This was made like last week.
I'd give it to Itachi mid-high diff.


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2014)

Kimimaro doesn't need to be trained in Gai's ways to avoid being forced into eye contact when he can just sprout spikes from any part of his body at will.


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## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Because Itachi will just force eye contact with his superior speed and Sharginan enhanced movements. Kimimaro hasn't trained to fight looking at the feet like Gai, so his combat effectiveness will be diminished.



When has itachi done that to someone with full knowledge on his abilities?  Rather, when has any MS genjutsu user done that to someone with full knowledge on their abilities?  I don't remember minato, bee, or the five kage's abilities implied to have been significantly diminished while having to avoid direct eye contact, and they were up against far stronger opponents.

Plus, why is normal sharingan genjutsu even gg for kimimaro?


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> When has itachi done that to someone with full knowledge on his abilities?  Rather, when has any MS genjutsu user done that to someone with full knowledge on their abilities?  I don't remember minato, bee, or the five kage's abilities implied to have been significantly diminished while having to avoid direct eye contact, and they were up against far stronger opponents.
> 
> Plus, why is normal sharingan genjutsu even gg for kimimaro?



Itachi caught Naruto who had knowledge on sharingan twice. Once with ephemeral and the second time with crow genjutsu, what is he gonna do here? He doesn't have  partner, and if Naruto (a Kyuubi Jin, Uzumaki) couldn't couldn't get enough chakra rolling to break his non sharingan genjutsu, than Kimmi is fucked. Also Itachi caught Bee, who had knowledge on Uchiha and their genjutsu as he admits chapters later.

What illusion resistant feats does Kimmi have? Sasuke's much less superior version Ko'd people like Shi who have excellent chakra control, and Sai who is in the same bucket.

genjutsu + Fire flow = good game.


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## Rocky (May 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Kimimaro doesn't need to be trained in Gai's ways to avoid being forced into eye contact when he can just sprout spikes from any part of his body at will.



He doesn't need to grab onto Kimimaro. He can just position his own eyes where Kimimaro is looking, or catch him in a passing glance like he did Killer B. Itachi didn't have to grab B, who's far more of a physical presence than Kimimaro.


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2014)

Since when was it only a passing glance that he caught Bee with?


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Since when was it only a passing glance that he caught Bee with?



Bee gets entranced here

Gets out here

he used the cover of Crimson nails (Bee had to look at them to block them and his eyes were in view) to land the genjutsu.


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## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi caught Naruto who had knowledge on sharingan twice. Once with ephemeral and the second time with crow genjutsu, what is he gonna do here? He doesn't have  partner, and if Naruto (a Kyuubi Jin, Uzumaki) couldn't couldn't get enough chakra rolling to break his non sharingan genjutsu, than Kimmi is fucked. Also Itachi caught Bee, who had knowledge on Uchiha and their genjutsu as he admits chapters later.


The only reason itachi caught naruto with those two genjutsus was because naruto had no knowledge on them.  

First time: Naruto knows about sharingan genjutsu, but doesn't know about finger genjutsu = gets caught by finger genjutsu.

Second time: Naruto knows about sharingan and finger genjutsu, doesn't know itachi placed shinsui's eye in a crow = gets caught by shisui's eye.

In otherwords, itachi has only caught naruto due to naruto having no knowledge on itachi's ability to cast it.  Kimimaro has full.

Breaking a genjutsu obviously isn't just about chakra quantity that one puts into his or her kai. 



Dr. White said:


> What illusion resistant feats does Kimmi have? Sasuke's much less superior version Ko'd people like Shi who have excellent chakra control, and Sai who is in the same bucket.


Yet the genjutsu that sasuke used on Shi hurt sasuke just like his MS jutsu he used against Bee did.  Sai isn't in the same bucket as Kimimaro or shi....



Dr. White said:


> genjutsu + Fire flow = good game.


sure, if he lands a genjutsu that puts kimimaro to sleep and then katon him its gg.  But what are the chances of him doing so before kimimaro shanks him?



Rocky said:


> He doesn't need to grab onto Kimimaro. He can just position his own eyes where Kimimaro is looking, or catch him in a passing glance like he did Killer B. Itachi didn't have to grab B, who's far more of a physical presence than Kimimaro.


bee is a jinchuriki who has overcome even Sasuke's MS genjutsu, he didn't care if he gets hit by 3 tomoe genjutsu.


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## Rocky (May 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Since when was it only a passing glance that he caught Bee with?



If you're talking about the Shuriken fire trick, then Itachi can use that here...


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2014)

I'm just talking about how there was more opportunity than a mere passing glance.



Dr. White said:


> he used the cover of Crimson nails (Bee had to look at them to block them and his eyes were in view) to land the genjutsu.



How do we know Itachi didn't start the process after he dodged Samehada's swing, when Bee's eyes became straight ahead of Itachi's own and remained that way until after the shuriken event?


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## Rocky (May 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> He didn't care if he gets hit by 3 tomoe genjutsu.



There isn't any evidence of that. 3-Tome genjutsu still creates small openings.


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The only reason itachi caught naruto with those two genjutsus was because naruto had no knowledge on them.


Yeah true I thought this was Rep, or manga. But despite this Kimmimaro simply knowing about it does little, hence why villages made the 1 and run rule despite knowledge, there is so little you could do to avoid eye contact in a fight, not even taking into account the other person forcing eye contact. Then we throw in Itachi just needs him to look at his eyes, finger or a crow? Kimmi's odds are extra slim.




> Breaking a genjutsu obviously isn't just about chakra quantity that one puts into his or her kai.


With regular genjutsu it is hyped to work, hence why Itachi says Naruto's improved. Itachi is above average genjutsu user (as seen with Kurenai), and has genjutsu'd sharingan users, chakra beast, and his base sharingan even managed to entrap Bee for a while.




> Yet the genjutsu that sasuke used on Shi affects him like an MS jutsu would.  Sai isn't in the same bucket as Kimimaro or shi....


Nah, clearly 3 tomoe used here, Sasuke's chakra was just darker as commented on by Karin. MS genjutsu is clearly different, this one is similar to the one used on Sai. Sai is a good chakra controller like shi, because it is needed to use Fuinjutsu. So clearly sharingan genjutsu cares not for quality or quantity of chakra.

sure, if he lands a genjutsu that puts kimimaro to sleep and then katon him its gg.  But what are the chances of him doing so before kimimaro shanks him?
The chances Kimmi lands a hit on Itachi without SnY are stupendously low lol. He was pushed by drunk lee, and needed to bring out CS against him. Itachi's speed, and reactions put that to shame.


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2014)

Jiraiya said you're supposed to try and _stop the flow_ of your Chakra, not just get enough Chakra rolling.

What does quantity have to do with that?


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya said you're supposed to try and _stop the flow_ of your Chakra, not just get enough Chakra rolling.
> 
> What does quantity have to do with that?



I thought you were suppossed to try and stop it then flood it again? Chakra control needed to stop it on a dime, and quantity to re boot the engine if you will. If I am mistaken then only chakra control matters, which people like Shi, Sai, and Sasuke can attest to.



FlamingRain said:


> I'm just talking about how there was more opportunity than a mere passing glance.
> 
> 
> 
> How do we know Itachi didn't start the process after he dodged Samehada's swing, when Bee's eyes became straight ahead of Itachi's own and remained that way until after the shuriken event?



Because we clearly see Kishi focusing on both of their eyes. either way it wouldn't matter, as if he created during Bee turning around, or after Crimson Nail, Bee was still caught in under a second (a passing glance). Hell if it is as you suggest Bee was under the illusion longer, which means more credence to Itachi.

We can reasonably deduce by the focusing on the eyes, and Itachi subsequent crow body after landing that the panel I showed is when he genjutu'd him.


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2014)

Jiraiya's instructions in the Viz are: _*"Listen...if you're caught by Genjutsu...//...try to stop your Chakra flow as much as possible."*_

That is before he mentions the partner method of course.

Back to Bee: idk...Kishi focusing on their eyes may very well just mean that that was the point at which eye contact had been maintained for a sufficient amount of time for the Genjutsu to start as opposed to Itachi just then initiating his capture attempt.


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## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There isn't any evidence of that.


Sure there is.  Outside evidence that suggests that was the case is how Sasuke and madara fail to get the kages in genjutsu unless they force them into it.  Also, the fact that itachi tells bee: *"don't look at my eyes" *suggests  Bee wasn't attempting to do that before the warning.



Rocky said:


> 3-Tome genjutsu still creates small openings.


sure, but at the same time, the MS genjutsu gave *bee the opening to do this.*  plus, we've seen that the small opening that the three tomoe created didn't do anything to bee, so the risk of that doesn't outweigh not having to avoid eye contact.



Dr. White said:


> Yeah true I thought this was Rep, or manga. But despite this Kimmimaro simply knowing about it does little, hence why villages made the 1 and run rule despite knowledge, there is so little you could do to avoid eye contact in a fight, not even taking into account the other person forcing eye contact. Then we throw in Itachi just needs him to look at his eyes, finger or a crow? Kimmi's odds are extra slim.


The 1 and run rule is for normal shinobi.  For kage level shinobi who are experienced, skilled, and reflexive enough, they don't have the same problems avoiding eye contact as fodders do.  That's why at the kage level, the only people who get put in sharingan genjutsu are those who are forced into it or don't care about it.  It never happens because they happen to accidentally look at the eye while normally fighting. 




Dr. White said:


> With regular genjutsu it is hyped to work, hence why Itachi says Naruto's improved. Itachi is above average genjutsu user (as seen with Kurenai), and has genjutsu'd sharingan users, chakra beast, and his base sharingan even managed to entrap Bee for a while.


Sure, itachi's genjutsu is well above normal genjutsu that naruto's kai should have worked on.  We've seen that people like orochimaru can kai out of both sasuke and itachi's sharingan genjutsu.  so it depends where Kimi is in relation to those two.  




Dr. White said:


> Nah, clearly 3 tomoe used here, Sasuke's chakra was just darker as commented on by Karin. MS genjutsu is clearly different, this one is similar to the one used on Sai. Sai is a good chakra controller like shi, because it is needed to use Fuinjutsu. So clearly sharingan genjutsu cares not for quality or quantity of chakra.


undoubtedly it's 3 tomeo.  However, it is linked to his MS which is why it shows susanoo in the background and why *shi says this.* but that's besides the point since like you said it's a three tomoe genjutsu.  



Dr. White said:


> The chances Kimmi lands a hit on Itachi without SnY are stupendously low lol. He was pushed by drunk lee, and needed to bring out CS against him. Itachi's speed, and reactions put that to shame.


what is SnY?  base kimimaro who was moving through sheer willpower wasn't able to beat drunk lee, yet when he entered CS he started dominating lee.  That's the same lee that knocked out Gai btw.  Healthy kimimaro far superior to that kimi.  We've seen in the war that he can hold his own alongside chiyo, and by hype, he could be around Hebi Sasuke's level.  

In fact from the way orochimaru was talking about him, he would have rather taken over kimi than have taken over sasuke.


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Sure there is.  Outside evidence that suggests that was the case is how Sasuke and madara fail to get the kages in genjutsu unless they force them into it.  Also, the fact that itachi tells bee: *"don't look at my eyes" *suggests  Bee wasn't attempting to do that before the warning.


Kages already knew not to make eye contact, and also it is called plot progression. Kishi can't have the answer be genjutsu to everything. Madara 1 v 5 wouldn't waste time unless he could Tsukuyomi them and put them out of the fight, they would just chakra transfer out anyway. Raikage got busted in a second to the problem was tying his fast ass down. So if an Uchiha can make eye contact long enough as Madara did they got Ei.




> sure, but at the same time, the MS genjutsu gave *bee the opening to do this.*  plus, we've seen that the small opening that the three tomoe created didn't do anything to bee, so the risk of that doesn't outweigh not having to avoid eye contact.


Sasuke's genjutsu canonically < Itachi's. It just goes to show you Itachi 2 tomoe over MS Sasuke Base genjutsu. 

Itachi could have used Amaterasu, or totsuka in that time period and Bee would have no idea until free'd as he thought shuriken were crows. He was caught for 9 panels, which is more than enough time to land a decisive hit.


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya's instructions in the Viz are: _*"Listen...if you're caught by Genjutsu...//...try to stop your Chakra flow as much as possible."*_
> 
> That is before he mentions the partner method of course.
> 
> Back to Bee: idk...Kishi focusing on their eyes may very well just mean that that was the point at which eye contact had been maintained for a sufficient amount of time for the Genjutsu to start as opposed to Itachi just then initiating his capture attempt.



then it is more about chakra control. genjutsu, healing, and sensing require it. Kurenai, Sasuke, Shi, and Sai can attest to that doing jack, as they are all relatively good at it. Hell even Kabuto (top tier in all of those categories) was hiding his eyes.

That doesn't even make sense. Itachi's vision was obstructed by Sameheada and then his crimson nails which means it wouldn't be continuous eye contact.* It is clear as day, as to when Itachi caught Bee.*


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## FlamingRain (May 6, 2014)

Once Samehada was swung it was to Bee's _side_, meaning it wasn't obstructing anything; and there are a multitude of gaps between each of the flaming Shuriken, so those didn't necessarily obstruct anything either.


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## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kages already knew not to make eye contact, and also it is called plot progression. Kishi can't have the answer be genjutsu to everything.


kishi doesn't have genjutsu beat people because unlike in part 1, the standard combatants are kage level and are far more informed about the sharingan than the people of part 1.



Dr. White said:


> Madara 1 v 5 wouldn't waste time unless he could Tsukuyomi them and put them out of the fight, they would just chakra transfer out anyway. Raikage got busted in a second to the problem was tying his fast ass down. So if an Uchiha can make eye contact long enough as Madara did they got Ei.


If they are attacking madara 1 by 1, genjutsu is a very viable option.  Plus, what about when madara made it 5 vs 1 after he brought out his clones?  



Dr. White said:


> Sasuke's genjutsu canonically < Itachi's. It just goes to show you Itachi 2 tomoe over MS Sasuke Base genjutsu.


No it isn't.  Sasuke's MS genjutsu is canonically < itachis, nothing about their three tomoes.  In fact, orochimaru even portrayed them as equals in that regard.  Plus, that doesn't show itachi's 3 tomoe > MS Sasuke's base genjutsu, itachi's was intended to deceive, Sasukes was intended to knock out.  



Dr. White said:


> Itachi could have used Amaterasu, or totsuka in that time period and Bee would have no idea until free'd as he thought shuriken were crows. He was caught for 9 panels, which is more than enough time to land a decisive hit.


No he couldn't have.  Itachi would have to activate his MS, then build the pressure and let blood drop from his eye and then amaterasu.  
He'd take even longer to use totsuka since he'd have to form a V4 susanoo.


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## Aduro (May 6, 2014)

Even if Itachi's genjutsu (which Kimimaro has NO feats for dealing with besides fighting blind which he also hasn't  tried before) was restricted, Kimimaro has absolutely no feats so suggest he could touch Itachi, who is faster than Post timeskip Sasuke and Kakashi. Kimi's feats barely put him above drunk Lee straight after his surgery, Itachi could just dodge around while conserving chakra until Kimi can't keep up the immensley chakra consuming cursed seal anymore for ITachi to burn him with a few fireballs.


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> > kishi doesn't have genjutsu beat people because unlike in part 1, the standard combatants are kage level and are far more informed about the sharingan than the people of part 1.
> 
> 
> more people got beat by genjutsu in pt. 2 than in pt. 1
> ...


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## Dr. White (May 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Once Samehada was swung it was to Bee's _side_, meaning it wasn't obstructing anything; and there are a multitude of gaps between each of the flaming Shuriken, so those didn't necessarily obstruct anything either.



No not at all. you essentially making a case out of ambiguity, but there is none here. We know exactly when Itachi did per panel, I don't know why you must reject it.

the crimson nails would have blocked his sight because they were in front of his face, and therefore blocking his view until they began travelling, he also had to turn his head to breathe fire unto the shuriken (which are at different angles in the air.). you're making the ridiculous case that Itachi needed from the millisecond Bee's sword was brought to his side after the swing, all the way until after the crimson nails are launched which not only doesn't make sense (as I pointed out above) but is clearly contradicted by the manga, it is clear as day that he used it when they made eye contact after the crimson nails were fired.


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## Sans (May 6, 2014)

This is hilarious.

Kabuto thought he was the closest thing to the Sage of Six Paths. He also prepared a method of fighting pre-battle that avoided eye contact entirely, for Itachi's genjutsu.

Itachi was able to genjutsu Kirabi mid acrobatics.

Kimmimaro gets punk'd and stabs himself.


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## Bonly (May 6, 2014)

Genjutsu GG? Genjutsu GG. Kimi ain't ready for prime time baby


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## Wrath (May 6, 2014)

If Itachi needed Genjutsu to beat Kimimaro I would be shocked.


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## Csdabest (May 6, 2014)

Itachi isn't beating Kimimaro Healthy without Mangekyo or Izanami. Itachi has no legit way to force Kimimaro to look him in the eyes and kimimaro has better field control with sawarabi no mai. Itachi jutsu in his regular arsenal are quite dodgeble if you ask me. If Itachi gets any wear close to kimimaro he is getting skewered through by dance of the willow.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2014)

I wonder how are Itachi's jutsus (fire, Kunais...etc) going to kill Kimmimaro when Gaara's huge attacks, did not! @>@

I really doubt that those jutsus are stronger than this for example!
*bee the opening to do this.*

or his Kunais might be stronger than that, since itachi is the one who's throwing them anyway. @<@


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## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

Hard to call. Based on "feats" Kimi would win as Itachi literally couldn't do anything to him given his Bloodline-limit. However personally I believe Itachi has a plethora of Jutsu that he hasn't shown in the manga given how long he's had the Three-Tome Sharingan and traveling the globe with Akatsuki; Kabuto also supports this with his statement. So it's possible Itachi has something up his sleeve that could damage Kimimaro, though it's equally possible he does not given the absurd level of Kimimaro's defenses. Than there is whether Itachi can deal with Kimimaro's techniques, and based on "feats" i'm not convinced to say the least, as I do not see Itachi being able to do anything against CS2-Kimi in CQC or  Swarabi no Mai. Though again I could see him perhaps having certain jutsu up his sleeve that could help defend him to a certain extent. 

As for how strong Kishimoto intends for us to see them, well that depends on their physical condition. Sick-Kimi was weakened enough where through the combined efforts of SRA-Naruto, SRA-Lee, & SRA-Gaara he was held off long enough for him to die of his illness. Obviously if those characters could pull such a thing off so could Itachi, heck even Sick-Itachi should be able to without too much issue. So I doubt Kishimoto would have Sick-Kimi defeat even Sick-Itachi. Healthy or Edo-Kimi on the other hand I believe is suppose to be seen as around Hebi-Sasuke's level and with that taken into consideration I could see Healthy-Kimi not defeating Sick-Itachi, but forcing him to utilize Mangekyo-Sharingan, but since that's banned here he'd probably loose. Healthy or Edo-Itachi on the other hand i'm not sure as I still find how strong Itachi is suppose to be seen outside Mangekyo-Sharingan to be a bit ill defined. So to me that is coin toss, though I lean slightly towards Itachi


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## Ersa (May 6, 2014)

Yeah Kimimaro stands no chance here, even with MS restricted.

As people have pointed out, someone like B still managed to get caught in Itachi's genjutsu and Kimimaro is not faster nor any more skilled then B is so he suffers the same fate. Itachi can then control him to disable bone defense (per Shikaku's words) and rip him to shreds with_ Katon Hosenka Tsumabeni_.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Yeah Kimimaro stands no chance here, even with MS restricted.
> 
> As people have pointed out, someone like B still managed to get caught in Itachi's genjutsu and Kimimaro is not faster nor any more skilled then B is so he suffers the same fate. Itachi can then control him to disable bone defense (per Shikaku's words) and rip him to shreds with_ Katon Hosenka Tsumabeni_.


AO was clearly referring to fodder, like how Itachi controlled that woman in the hotel. Itachi does not have Geass abilities, that's Shisui's racket.


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## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> ueharakk said:
> 
> 
> > more people got beat by genjutsu in pt. 2 than in pt. 1
> ...


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## Ersa (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> AO was clearly referring to fodder, like how Itachi controlled that woman in the hotel. Itachi does not have Geass abilities, that's Shisui's racket.


I love how you refer to these Jounin as fodder yet the Sound 4 aren't fodder despite losing to 2 Tokubetsu Jounin. And controlling a mass of people is harder then controlling one.

Itachi was able to control a borderline top tier (SM Kabuto) with Tsukiyomi, to suggest he can't do the same to a vastly weaker opponent like Kimimaro with regular Sharingan genjutsu doesn't fit with the manga. Orochimaru struggled with Itachi's base genjutsu and unlike him, Kimimaro doesn't possess a 5 in genjutsu. 

He's shown to be capable of controlling both fodder and high-top tier as well as Jounin and Chunin alike by Shikaku. I don't think Kimimaro's 3 in genjutsu and feats suggest he's not susceptible to regular Sharingan genjutsu mindfuck.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 6, 2014)

Kimimaro is going to have a difficult time fighting Itachi effectively while avoiding not only eye contact, which is easy enough, but also his hands. That basically means he can't look at Itachi's upper body if he wants to be safe, and he probably will want to be safe, since even finger genjutsu could be a problem for him. Kimimaro not only has no feats defending against genjutsu, but based on the stats which could conceivably be relevant to defense (a 3 in genjutsu, 3 in seals, and 4 in ninjutsu), it's questionable whether he could even beat the weakest of Itachi's genjutsu. And between the speed of Itachi's movements, shruikenjutsu, bunshin feints, and offensive ninjutsu, I think Kimimaro would have a very hard time not getting forced into genjutsu. And let's not forget that Itachi can conceal his Sharingan crow, which can cast genjutsu as well, amidst others. They are quick enough to prevent Sasuke from outmaneuvering them. With Itachi's genjutsu cast through Shisui's Sharingan against someone like Kimimaro, I could very much buy that he might be able to control Kimimaro for a few moments. And if not he could at least put him to sleep. Which could give him ample time to test the limits of the man's endurance when he wasn't prepared, if death is necessary to win. 

And with full knowledge, I doubt very much that Itachi is going to get caught by Kimimaro's ordinary bone attacks. He's faster than Kimimaro and has the Sharingan to boot, and is no slouch in terms of his skill in movement, being not so far off from Kimimaro himself in that regard. The only real threat is Sawarabi no Mai. But the implication was that if he was healthy, or his eyes had been working, or his body wasn't reeling from having Tsukuyomi broken he would have been able to dodge the whole of Sasuke's rather difficult to evade shruiken combo. I think he ought to be able to avoid being skewered by the bones as well, tap dancing amidst the sides of the bones to avoid the points. And with full knowledge he will expect Kimimaro's own emergence. Yeah, I'd give this to Itachi 9.5 times out of 10 with mid difficulty. I don't think no MS Itachi is actually all _that_ much stronger than healthy Kimimaro, but if you have no real counter to his genjutsu, it doesn't matter.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I love how you refer to these Jounin as fodder


What Jonin? Give me names. The only time we see Itachi utilize this ability on panel is against a civilian.



> Itachi was able to control a borderline top tier (SM Kabuto) with Tsukiyomi, to suggest he can't do the same to a vastly weaker opponent like Kimimaro with regular Sharingan genjutsu doesn't fit with the manga.


Tsukuyomi is literally stated to be as far above even regular Mangekyo-Sharingan Genjutsu as the heaven is above the earth. Even then Itachi could only get Kabuto to make a few hand-seals and that was after his mind was already trapped by Izanami. Maybe he could do more than that, maybe he could do it w/o Izanami; it's possible but Itachi hasn't done anything like that in the manga-cannon, and certainly AO saying he could control some unnamed people and him doing so to a civilian is not enough portrayal wise to support it ether. Not to mention another possibility is that his ability to control people comes from Mangekyo-Sharingan or even Tsukuyomi itself; and is not even a Three-Tome ability.

In-fact I suspect it actually is the later, considering that Itachi specifically used Tsukuyomi just to control Kabuto to use those hand-seals, and that was after Kabuto was completely immobilized in terms of both his mind & body, by Izanami. If he could control non-fodder with three-tome, the specific focus on Tsukuyomi doesn't make any sense whatsoever.



> Orochimaru struggled with Itachi's base genjutsu and unlike him


Itachi never controlled Orochimaru through Genjutsu; so this is not an apt comparison.



> and unlike him, Kimimaro doesn't possess a 5 in genjutsu


You've been on the forum long enough where your aware that a Genjutsu stat does not determine a person's ability to combat Genjutsu. So don't pretend to be ignorant of this fact.



> e's shown to be capable of controlling both fodder and high-top tier as well as Jounin and Chunin alike by Shikaku[I don't think Kimimaro's 3 in genjutsu and feats suggest he's not susceptible to regular Sharingan genjutsu mindfuck


When did he ever control a Jonin or even a Chuunin with three-tome? He can cast visual illusions or binding Genjutsu on them, but that's Irrelevant to the topic at hand.


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## Bkprince33 (May 6, 2014)

Itachi wins kimmi is not avoiding eye contact and fighting on par with someone who is faster then him and has sharingon to boot 


Nice attempt with full knowledge and 100 meters but kimi has no effective way to fight itachi and not get caught by genjutsu, the man had trouble with drunk lee.



itachi stepped with kcm and bee I mean seriously its not hard to figure out.


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## ueharakk (May 6, 2014)

I understand that a good case can be made for Itachi winning, but that doesn't mean you can just type anything and call it case closed:



Bkprince33 said:


> Itachi wins kimmi is not avoiding eye contact and fighting on par with someone who is faster then him and has sharingon to boot


since when does being faster and having better reactions than an opponent mean sharingan genjutsu gg?



Bkprince33 said:


> Nice attempt with full knowledge and 100 meters but kimi has no effective way to fight itachi and not get caught by genjutsu, the man had trouble with drunk lee.




base kimimaro who was moving his body with pure willpower had trouble with drunk lee, the same drunk lee who knocked out base Gai.  CS1 kimimaro was stomping

This thread has healthy kimimaro who's potentially hebi-sasuke/chiyo level. 



Bkprince33 said:


> itachi stepped with kcm and bee I mean seriously its not hard to figure out.


All that means is that kimimaro will have a harder time landing hits on itachi than itachi will have on kimi.


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## tkpirate (May 6, 2014)

Itachi should win this with high difficulty.


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## Bkprince33 (May 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I understand that a good case can be made for Itachi winning, but that doesn't mean you can just type anything and call it case closed:
> 
> 
> since when does being faster ter reactions than an opponent mean sharingan genjutsu gg?
> ...



By itachi being faster he can casually set up Kimi for a genjutsu and kimi won't even notice it.

He can clone feint him and force eye Contact like he did with kakashi's shadow clone.

He can clone feint him and use finger genjutsu.

Kimi is way slower and can't even make direct eye contact with itachi, how is he gonna fight effectively against a faster opponent with sharingon precognition? You should of at least gave him gai proficiency in fighting the sharingon without eye contact.


even if u argue kimi was sick, as a edo he didn't display anything over his alive incarnation.


gai also wasn't approaching Lee as a enemy so I don't see your point.


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## Csdabest (May 7, 2014)

Forgot about Itachi's finger Genjutsu. So I guess Itachi still wins sadly. Since Itachi is a god with genjutsu and kimi is featless.


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## blk (May 7, 2014)

I don't think Kimimaro has any feat of breaking a genjutsu, or at least one that suggests that he can.
Given the above, it's highly unlikely for Kimimaro to be able to continually fight efficently someone faster than him, without looking his entire upper body and paying attention to random crows.

On top of that, Itachi can also opt for fighting at mid distance with his fireballs, while Kimimaro doesn't have a credible mid-range fighting capability (except for Sawarabi no Mai, which is a one-time jutsu that Itachi can probably avoid by simply running away with shunshin).


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## Ghost (May 7, 2014)

Someone explain me why Itachi won't just dance around Kimi, create couple of shadow clones and fill Kimi's brain with kunais before the latter is even able to react.

or just genjutsu gg.


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## Stermor (May 7, 2014)

always fun putting an snail up against itachi.. kimi has no business fighting jounin until he can casually outspeed base lee.. since he has never done that.. nor will ever be able to do that..

he will always be to slow to even compete with most jounin(his defense beeing his only saving grace) most elite jounin and up utterly rape him.. 

sadly though itachi is likely not strong enough to rape kimimaro in my prefered way (ripping kimi's skeleton out of him bone by bone..)


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> When has itachi done that to someone with full knowledge on his abilities?  Rather, when has any MS genjutsu user done that to someone with full knowledge on their abilities?  I don't remember minato, bee, or the five kage's abilities implied to have been significantly diminished while having to avoid direct eye contact, and they were up against far stronger opponents.
> 
> Plus, why is normal sharingan genjutsu even gg for kimimaro?



He did that to Kakashi who happens to have more physical strength than Kimi and sharingan precognition.

Itachi grabs Kimi's neck and forces eye contact. Besides what rocky said, Gai method requires training. Kimi can't pull that off effectively.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

There is absolutely no compelling argument that based on "feats" Itachi wins. Here's why

*Speed*
Kimi's speed in DBII is a 4.5, the same "base" speed as Hebi-Sasuke, who kept up just fine with Itachi. Sasuke has Three-Tome Sharingan to enhance his speed further, but Kimi has CS to enhace his speed further as well. Sasuke, who has utilize both powers compares CS1's increase in speed to Sharingan's. But that is just CS1, Kimi has CS2 to further enhance him beyond that. Sasuke also had CS1/CS2 of course, but he didn't need to use them to keep up with Itachi's physical speed (only Amaterasu). On top of that Kimi's Taijutsu ability is beyond that of Hebi-Sasuke's [5 vs 3.5 -- in-fact also superior to Itachi's 5 vs 4.5]. This also effects speed as Lee tells us a Taijutsu master has no wasted movement . On top of that one of the strength of Kimi's Shikotsumyaku Kekkai-Genkai is stated to be it's unpredictability; like how B's-Swords or KN1-Chakra claw defeated Sharingan's predictive capabilities, Shikotsumyaku should allow Kimi to do the same. 

However this is simply talking about traditional speed; Kimi actually has another method of speed beyond this. This method being transmitting his body through his bone via Sawarabi no Mai. According to Gaara & DBII he buried Kimi 200m underground with Gokusa Maisou. This means that Kimi transmitted his body via his bones across a distance of 200m+ [as the forest extended well above the ground] in an insanely brief period of time. Furthermore it offers a great deal of unpredictability as Kimi can appear out of anyone of the "bone-trees" and attack from the enemies blind-spot. This offers such great speed and unpredictability to Kimi's movements that there is no way Itachi can compete with it.

Of course Itachi is healthy here so he may be a bit faster, but Kimi is also healthy here, and if illness hampered one of them worst, it was clearly Kimi, considering he was moving on pure will power during the SRA-arc.

With all this taken into consideration it's actually Itachi who will be lucky if he can handle the speed and unpredictability of Kimi's movements, not the other way around.

*Genjtutsu*
Kimi has built in Genjutsu defense thanks to Shikotsumyaku. As we've previously seen via pain breaks some one free of illusions. Kurunai broke free when Itachi casted her illusion back on her by biting her lip. Orochimar was freed from Itachi's binding illusion when he suffered the pain of having his hand cut off. These are of course examples of Itachi's Genjutsu specifically, there are more examples of Genjutsu in general that further support this, but I won't delve into that here. Kimi can cause himself pain in a flash instance at any time by simply using Shikotsumyaku to manipulate his bones (piercing his skin, muscle tissue, what have you), and of course he can do this even if he's bound. So Kimi should be able to break any illusion fairly easily by inflicting pain on himself.

However outside of Kimi's ability to break Genjutsu, there are two other issue at play. Will Kimi get caught and if Kimi does get caught will he loose the match. I'll tackle the former first. Kimi has full knowledge here meaning that he'd have to be an idiot to make eye-contact [unless of course he can break the illusion]. Fighting w/o eye contact is potentially an issue for other fighters, but not Kimi. We saw Kimi accurately target Gaara/Lee while having no field of vision due to being underground and transmitting his body across his own bones. There are two possible explanations for this:

1) Kimi has some means to fight while blind 
2) Kimi is able to see throw his bones

If it's the former than Kimi can fight Itachi just fine without needing eye contact. If it's the latter than Kimi w/ full knowledge would simply use Sawarabi no Mai to fight Itachi while avoiding eye-contact. Ether way I don't see how Itachi is going to actually catch Kimi when Kimi has full knowledge.

Moving on to the latter issue of whether, Kimi looses if he does get caught in Genjutsu [and can't break it]. Firstly depending on the type of illusion it's useless. For example binding Genjutsu isn't stoping Kimi as he can simply use Shikotsumyaku to extend his bones out for attack and defense -- Sawarabi no Mai if necessary -- despite the illusionary wedges being driven through his limbs. If it's an illusion like the one Sasuke used against C to KO him, someone like Kimi who was able to move his body via force of will would likely be able to withstand such an illusion. The only type that could prove effective would be the illusionary type giving Itachi and opening to hit Kimi.

However let's say Itachi does hit Kimi. If Kimi is CS1/CS2 form that hit would be laughed off as Itachi has absolutely nothing [at least as far as "feats" are concerned] outside of Mangekyo-Sharingan that has greater offensive might than Gaara's Sabaku Taisō and Sabaku Sōsō, which Kimi laughed off in his respective CS forms. If Kimi is in "base" Itachi's hit wouldn't be straight up blocked by Kimi's durability, but Kimi's regeneration would recover him from any bow Itachi could dish out while restricted from Mangekyo-Sharingan. After-all Kimi even in "base" regenerated instantly from pulling bones out of his fricking neck of all places. Additionally once Itachi inflicts the damage of his Jutsu/attack Kimi can than activate CS/CS2 to recover even faster, in CS2 we saw him instantly regenerate from his entire spinal cord being ripped out, and even exist as half a body, the other half being fused totally with bone when he used Sawarabi no Mai.

And that's the main problem Itachi's got nothing "feat" wise to actually kill Kimi with. He could maybe stop his mind with Izanami, but I actually think Kimi does accept himself, so that's probably not going to work ether.

*Kimi's Offense*
Kimi can tank his way through everything Itachi can throw at him and he can use the speed as well as unpredictability of his movements to catch Itachi and overpower him in CS/CS2 forms. There is really nothing by "feats" Itachi can do to stop that except utilizing bushin feints and LOS blocking grand-fireballs to try and keep his distance, but even if he turns this into a stamina contest Kimimaro would best him in that regard as well (4.5 vs 2.5). 

Than there is Sawarabi no Mai which Itachi has absolutely no way to deal with, going off "feats". Gaara's sand which was fast enough to move at the same speed as CS Kimi barely evaded the eruption of Sawarabi no Mai, and that was evading it vertically, which is much easier than having to evade it horizontally which is what Itachi would have to do. And no Shunshing backwards isn't going to cut it when the DB states that Kimi can literally generates Tens of Thousands of Bone-Trees to cover an absolutely massive area in an instant. So by "feats" I do not see how Itachi would survive the initial bone eruption, but even if he does pull it off some how he'd be stuck in a forest of bones that Kimi both controls and can pop out of in an instant to attack him from a blindspot. Again he has no feats of being able to handle something like that.

Itachi is simply outclassed "feats" wise. I actually think he might be able to pull it out based on portrayal, but the idea that he'd win based on "feats" needs to stop.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

Stermor said:


> always fun putting an snail up against itachi.. kimi has no business fighting jounin until he can casually outspeed base lee.. since he has never done that.. nor will ever be able to do that..
> 
> he will always be to slow to even compete with most jounin(his defense beeing his only saving grace) most elite jounin and up utterly rape him..
> 
> sadly though itachi is likely not strong enough to rape kimimaro in my prefered way (ripping kimi's skeleton out of him bone by bone..)



The fuck are you talking about? He's got a 4.5 in speed.


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## Ghost (May 7, 2014)

^ Means jack shit. He was in the same speed league as Lee.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

*Drunken Fist Lee - who is considerably faster and stronger than normal Lee.


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## Ghost (May 7, 2014)

How does alcohol make him faster and stronger? His taijutsu becomes unpredictable. If you have proof feel free to post. Either way, fifth gate > drunken fist.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

saikyou said:


> How does alcohol make him faster and stronger? His taijutsu becomes unpredictable. If you have proof feel free to post. Either way, fifth gate > drunken fist.


Speed was never the issue. Kimi even casually reacted to Lee's speed even after Lee opened the first inner Gate [and that was with barely using any of the CS's power mind you]. The issue was unpredictability, which Lee was able to use to overcome the difference in speed & taijutsu skill, that is until Kimi became even more unpredictable by using his Shikotsumyaku powers:
alone


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

saikyou said:


> How does alcohol make him faster and stronger? His taijutsu becomes unpredictable. If you have proof feel free to post. Either way, fifth gate > drunken fist.



alone

Drunken Lee was apparently such a monster that he managed to knock Guy unconscious. 

Drunk Lee is a different animal compared to normal Lee.


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## Ghost (May 7, 2014)

^ Comic relief and Guy didn't want to hurt him.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (May 7, 2014)

I can't tell if Turrin is actually being serious, and if Turrin truly believes that DB stats somehow make Kimimaro equal to Itachi in Taijutsu.  Does he like playing devil's advocate or something?


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Someone explain me why Itachi won't just dance around Kimi, create couple of shadow clones and fill Kimi's brain with kunais before the latter is even able to react.
> 
> or just genjutsu gg.



Someone who can survive the pressure of Prison Sand Burial ain't being taken out with a fucking kunai.

Be serious now.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> I can't tell if Turrin is actually being serious, and if Turrin truly believes that DB stats somehow make Kimimaro equal to Itachi in Taijutsu.  Does he like playing devil's advocate or something?



He's actually better than Itachi at taijutsu.


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## Nikushimi (May 7, 2014)

Restrict Genjutsu so that at least Kimimaro will be able to fight back while Itachi is plucking him like a chicken.


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## Nikushimi (May 7, 2014)

Vice said:


> Someone who can survive the pressure of Prison Sand Burial ain't being taken out with a fucking kunai.
> 
> Be serious now.



If kunai are still threatening to guys like Killer B and the 4th Raikage, Kimimaro shouldn't get a free pass.

He's still got eyes, after all--soft, fleshy, stabbable eyes.



Turrin said:


> There is absolutely no compelling argument that based on "feats" Itachi wins. Here's why
> 
> -long list of bullshit-
> 
> Itachi is simply outclassed "feats" wise. I actually think he might be able to pull it out based on portrayal, but the idea that he'd win based on "feats" needs to stop.



Itachi looks Kimimaro in the eyes and rapes his mind.

Good game.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Restrict Genjutsu so that at least Kimimaro will be able to fight back while Itachi is plucking him like a chicken.



Without genjutsu Itachi ain't got shit to put Kimimaro down in this match up.

You be serious too.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> If kunai are still threatening to guys like Killer B and the 4th Raikage, Kimimaro shouldn't get a free pass.
> 
> He's still got eyes, after all--soft, fleshy, stabbable eyes.



Well good thing he's got a 5 in taijutsu and a 4.5 in speed then. And if his tiny little eyes are the only feasible target on his body, then good luck with that.

Or does he just stand there like an idiot like every other opponent of Itachi's in the battledome?



> Itachi looks Kimimaro in the eyes and rapes his mind.
> 
> Good game.



Knowledge is full, Kimi ain't looking in his eyes.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (May 7, 2014)

> He's actually better than Itachi at taijutsu.



I'm surprised people think this.  He isn't that impressive to me, and neither is part 1 drunk Lee.  By part 2 standards I don't see how Kimmaro is impressive at all.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> I'm surprised people think this.  He isn't that impressive to me, and neither is part 1 drunk Lee.  By part 2 standards I don't see how Kimmaro is impressive at all.



Well, 5 > 4.5 so Kishi certainly believes so.


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## Nikushimi (May 7, 2014)

Vice said:


> Without genjutsu Itachi ain't got shit to put down Kimimaro in this match up.
> 
> You be serious too.



Katon and basic ninja tools should do the trick, over time. Kimimaro has no fire/heat resistance feats whatsoever, and if we scale him off of Hebi Sasuke (which I don't even know why we would, because Sasuke was the far superior shinobi of the two and had better durability feats than Kimi ever performed), he's going to suffer some burns from even a single exposure to a Goukakyuu. Accumulate enough of that damage over the course of a fight with someone who is faster _and_ physically stronger, with Sharingan, and it's going to result in Kimi's death eventually if his poor health doesn't kill him first.


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## Nikushimi (May 7, 2014)

Vice said:


> Well good thing he's got a 5 in taijutsu and a 4.5 in speed then.



*Kimimaro*

Taijutsu: 5
Power: 3
Speed: 4.5

Itachi

Taijutsu: 4.5
Power: 3.5
Speed: 5


Itachi is faster than Kimimaro, stronger than Kimimaro, and damn near as proficient in Kimi's own area of expertise.

And Taijutsu is Itachi's weakest asset other than his stamina.

Just a testament to the utterly enormous difference in their levels.

Oh yeah...and Itachi has Sharingan, which Kimi doesn't.



> And if his tiny little eyes are the only feasible target on his body, then good luck with that.



Itachi is perhaps the one person in the entire manga who has proven that would not be a problem for him at all.



> Or does he just stand there like an idiot like every other opponent of Itachi's in the battledome?



It's funny you say this when the manga is rife with such examples like Orochimaru, Deidara, Kakashi, and Nagato... Just saying.

Not that it matters what Kimimaro does, because Itachi is better than him in every conceivable facet that matters to the outcome of this battle.



> Knowledge is full, Kimi ain't looking in his eyes.



Kimimaro doesn't really have a choice, given that Itachi is faster _and_ stronger than him.

He can quite literally just grab Kimi and choke him into a Genjutsu.

Kimimaro's not even specially trained to fight Genjutsu users, let alone Sharingan users, let alone Sharingan users that happen to be as adept at Genjutsu as Itachi.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Katon



Fodder jutsu



> and basic ninja tools should do the trick



What? Like kunai and shuriken? Fucking laughable.



> over time. Kimimaro has no fire/heat resistance feats whatsoever



Kimimaro's skin heals himself every time a bone pierces through it, not sure what a little fire damage is supposed to do to him.

Not even taking into account that fire jutsu ain't doing shit to CS2.



> and if we scale him off of Hebi Sasuke (which I don't even know why we would, because Sasuke was the far superior shinobi of the two and had better durability feats than Kimi ever performed)



What the fuck? No he doesn't. At all.



> he's going to suffer some burns from even a single exposure to a Goukakyuu.



Itachi's silly little katons definitely ain't going to do shit to a him once CS2 is activated.

Itachi being stabbed to death with no durability feats and no Susanoo is a far more likely outcome than a CS2 Kimimaro being killed from fodder jutsu.



> Accumulate enough of that damage over the course of a fight with someone who is faster _and_ physically stronger



Itachi is not physically stronger than a CS2 Kimimaro, he's barely even stronger than him in base.

And Kimimaro's better taijutsu and physical durability makes up for Itachi's small advantage in speed.



> and it's going to result in Kimi's death eventually if his poor health doesn't kill him first.



Both combatant are healthy.

And I'd like you to tell me what Itachi's counter to this is without Susanoo:


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (May 7, 2014)

> Well, 5 > 4.5 so Kishi certainly believes so.



Ah, you put faith in databook stats, that explains it.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> *Kimimaro*
> 
> Taijutsu: 5
> Power: 3
> ...



In base. Once CS2 is activated, Kimimaro shits on him.



> And Taijutsu is Itachi's weakest asset other than his stamina.
> 
> Just a testament to the utterly enormous difference in their levels.



You have a weird definition of "utterly enormous", but I guess that would mean the difference in taijutsu proficiency between the two is "utterly enormous" in Kimimaro's favor too.



> Oh yeah...and Itachi has Sharingan, which Kimi doesn't.



And Kimimaro has full knowledge, CS2, better durability and better taijutsu while Itachi is restricted to only base Sharingan techs.

Pretty sure he'll be fine.



> Itachi is perhaps the one person in the entire manga who has proven that would not be a problem for him at all.



Sure. If the target isn't moving at all and isn't *looking* to defend against him.



> It's funny you say this when the manga is rife with such examples like Orochimaru, Deidara, Kakashi, and Nagato... Just saying.



It sure is funny that I figure a match up in the battledome doesn't restrict one from moving at all nor am I under the assumption that only one person is allowed to attack or that their attacks are only allowed to be effective at all.



> Not that it matters what Kimimaro does, because Itachi is better than him in every conceivable facet that matters to the outcome of this battle.



Itachi has NOTHING without his MS techs to overcome Kimimaro's durability with full knowledge.

Fucking katons that never hurt anybody in this manga and kunai who aren't doing shit compared to Gaara's sand isn't going to cut it. Just because it's Itachi doesn't mean it's magically going to work now.



> Kimimaro doesn't really have a choice, given that Itachi is faster _and_ stronger than him.



Not in CS2.



> He can quite literally just grab Kimi and choke him into a Genjutsu.



Yes, getting close to Kimimaro and his stabby-stabby offense without Susanoo is a REALLY smart idea.



> Kimimaro's not even specially trained to fight Genjutsu users, let alone Sharingan users, let alone Sharingan users that happen to be as adept at Genjutsu as Itachi.



Knowledge is full, doesn't matter.


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## Vice (May 7, 2014)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> Ah, you put faith in databook stats, that explains it.



Kishi wrote them, don't see why I shouldn't.


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## Cognitios (May 7, 2014)

> In base. Once CS2 is activated, Kimimaro shits on him.


In base Itachi has no Sharingan


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## Trojan (May 7, 2014)

Vice said:


> Kishi wrote them, don't see why I shouldn't.



From what I know, a lot of people jump to conclusion and claim that anything from the past
is either old, or reteconed, and thus they are not true. Unless Kishi slaps them every time
and make them return to reality as he did about a lot of things such as, the 8th gate, the Shukaku and priest, and Byakugan and the Shraingan origin...etc 

Of course if they are things in itachi's favor then it's alright to use no matter how old they are. For example, the Amatersu being as hot as the son, only an uchiha who can break the Tsukiyomi (?), his age when he graduated, or what the Academy teacher said about him...etc 

That just how I see it though, I might be wrong.


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## Cognitios (May 7, 2014)

The only reason I need that databooks don't know what they're talking about.


> Choji Databook 2: Handseal Stat: 1.5
> Choji Databook 3: Handseal Stat: 1


How does your hand seal ability get worse after a timeskip?


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (May 7, 2014)

When stats are put out you have to ask yourself it they make sense in relation to the manga.  If Frieza was given a 4 in speed, and Buu Saga SS Vegeta was given a 3.5 would you say they were equal?


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## Trojan (May 7, 2014)

The thing is the manga conflicts itself as well. Does that mean we should discredit the whole thing?

Examples.
1- Obito not being able to use Kamui as the Juubi's host. Then madara all of sudden can!
2- Sasuke couldn't keep his Susanoo up when his sight became weaker, and then madara all of sudden
can use it without even having his eyes.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 7, 2014)

The manga is rife with seeming inconsistencies. The ordinary way of dealing with that, in battledome terms since we are trying to make for a way of reasoning out what might really only be explained as "Kishi sucks", is to find a way to interpret them so that they make sense. In some cases, the manga inconsistencies and the databook inconsistencies might be to all reasonable parties, beyond the possibility of reconciliation. In that situation though, it helps to have multiple standards a great because then you have something to fall back when you decide to ignore some particular stat or feat or statement. For the record, that is the standard of evaluation Strat wound up using most of the time, and he is the one who compiled that list.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (May 7, 2014)

Two wrongs do not make a right. 

1- Should be obvious.  He used Kamui in every single fight.  Shounen manga fights need variety.

2- It's fucking Madara. And the full mechanics of Susanoo were never stated.

But don't quote those two, because that's not important.  The point still stands. Inconsistencies in the manga do not make the databook any more credible.  I don't know why you'd think that.


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## FlamingRain (May 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No not at all. you essentially making a case out of ambiguity, but there is none here. We know exactly when Itachi did per panel, I don't know why you must reject it.



No, the fact that I can stand here and make a case out of ambiguity proves that we DO NOT know exactly what Itachi did per panel.

The Shuriken going at different angles doesn't necessitate that any of them cut off the line between Bee and Itachi's eyes because those things are all thin and there are significant gaps all over the place, so they can be in front of Itachi's face without necessarily cutting eye contact itself. That means Itachi may very well have had the opportunity for more than a mere glance in order to instigate his Genjutsu, which leads to you having no support that it was merely a glance that's any less arbitrary than whatever explanation I or anyone else can come up with concerning the signal given by the panels highlighting their eyes.

Call it what you want but that mess _isn't_ clear.


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## Csdabest (May 7, 2014)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> When stats are put out you have to ask yourself it they make sense in relation to the manga.  If Frieza was given a 4 in speed, and Buu Saga SS Vegeta was given a 3.5 would you say they were equal?



*sighs* its because people do not know how to read the databook stats and think it means overrall ability when it really just means base ability. The Databook stat reflect physical condition and knowledge. These stats do not include enhancements by Doujutsu, Ninjutsu, Transformations, special types of chakras, or any bloodline ability. Ninjutsu stat isnt even dictated by the level or power of your ninjutsu that you actually own. Its determined by your knowledge and proficiency in that skill. 

Shinobi in this manga RARELY EVER attack with Shunshin or at full speed because its basic manga law that shinobi can not react at those speeds w/o some type of perception enhancements. When a shinobi dodges a shinobi who is faster. You need to look at it as Mike Tyson physically dodging a punch from Mayweather(Its clear Floyd is faster between the two) rather than seeing it as that shinobi dodging an insanely fast Shunshin from the faster shinobi who speed was enhance by chakra.

If you look at it correctly. The Stats make sense. Its why Sasuke is sooo much faster than Deidara when both of them have 4.5 stats. Its because Sasuke had sharingan boosting his perception and had Curse Seal enhancing his physical attributes and chakra.


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (May 7, 2014)

I'm well aware that they refer to only base stats.  Even then they don't make sense.  Which is why I said SS Vegeta instead of just Vegeta.  If the databook specifically mentioned sage jiraiya ect...

I did this so some fool wouldn't say base vegeta is still slower then Frieza even in the Buu Saga.  Blah, blah, blah, but it seems either way people feel like spouting common knowledge.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> I can't tell if Turrin is actually being serious, and if Turrin truly believes that DB stats somehow make Kimimaro equal to Itachi in Taijutsu.  Does he like playing devil's advocate or something?


I can't tell if your being serious, when the author directly tells us Kimi is better at Taijutsu than Itachi, and your still not just arguing against it, but acting like it's absurd.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 7, 2014)

Well i guess kimi shits on tsunade and base jiraiya with summons restricted to think we slept on kimmi this whole time.

 this thread has become comical


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## Edo Madara (May 8, 2014)

Itachi with genjutsu take this.


----------



## blk (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There is absolutely no compelling argument that based on "feats" Itachi wins. Here's why
> 
> *Speed*
> Kimi's speed in DBII is a 4.5, the same "base" speed as Hebi-Sasuke, who kept up just fine with Itachi. Sasuke has Three-Tome Sharingan to enhance his speed further, but Kimi has CS to enhace his speed further as well. Sasuke, who has utilize both powers compares CS1's increase in speed to Sharingan's. But that is just CS1, Kimi has CS2 to further enhance him beyond that. Sasuke also had CS1/CS2 of course, but he didn't need to use them to keep up with Itachi's physical speed (only Amaterasu). On top of that Kimi's Taijutsu ability is beyond that of Hebi-Sasuke's [5 vs 3.5 -- in-fact also superior to Itachi's 5 vs 4.5]. This also effects speed as Lee tells us a Taijutsu master has no wasted movement . On top of that one of the strength of Kimi's Shikotsumyaku Kekkai-Genkai is stated to be it's unpredictability; like how B's-Swords or KN1-Chakra claw defeated Sharingan's predictive capabilities, Shikotsumyaku should allow Kimi to do the same.
> ...



DB stats are a bullshit.
Lee, a genin, was able to react and keep up with Kimimaro just fine without even open a gate.
If Kimimaro was anywhere near Hebi Sasuke's speed, he would have blitz Lee.

Itachi has full knowledge, Kimimaro's unpredictability won't be very usefull.

Gaara and Lee were able to escape from Sawarabi no Mai from this position [1], meaning that the bones aren't that fast; Itachi can probably shunshin out of the field.
Also, the bones leave considerable space between one another, which means that Itachi can also avoid them by staying in the safe space between them.



> *Genjtutsu*
> Kimi has built in Genjutsu defense thanks to Shikotsumyaku. As we've previously seen via pain breaks some one free of illusions. Kurunai broke free when Itachi casted her illusion back on her by biting her lip. Orochimar was freed from Itachi's binding illusion when he suffered the pain of having his hand cut off. These are of course examples of Itachi's Genjutsu specifically, there are more examples of Genjutsu in general that further support this, but I won't delve into that here. Kimi can cause himself pain in a flash instance at any time by simply using Shikotsumyaku to manipulate his bones (piercing his skin, muscle tissue, what have you), and of course he can do this even if he's bound. So Kimi should be able to break any illusion fairly easily by inflicting pain on himself.
> 
> However outside of Kimi's ability to break Genjutsu, there are two other issue at play. Will Kimi get caught and if Kimi does get caught will he loose the match. I'll tackle the former first. Kimi has full knowledge here meaning that he'd have to be an idiot to make eye-contact [unless of course he can break the illusion]. Fighting w/o eye contact is potentially an issue for other fighters, but not Kimi. We saw Kimi accurately target Gaara/Lee while having no field of vision due to being underground and transmitting his body across his own bones. There are two possible explanations for this:
> ...



The genjutsu defense via pain might work, however breaking the genjutsu is only part of the problem.
Before breaking a genjutsu one has to realize to be into it, which isn't easy (especially with Itachi and for someone like Kimi who has apparently no big experience with them).

The "see through bones" thing is probably limited to Sawarabi no Mai (and even if it isn't, i don't see how he could actually fight with this method, considering the extremely limited line of sight that a bone offers). Or perhaps Kimi heard them speak, considering that they heard him from under 200 meters.
Another possibility is that he simply sneaked out of the sand trap while the bones were spawning and saw them.
In any case it is unlikely that Kimi will be able to continually avoid Itachi's genjutsu.

Kimi apparently cannot regenerate his internal organs (or at least not to any meaningful degree), since he needed to use bone masks under his skin for survive to Gaara's attack [2].
If he is caught in a genjutsu he won't be conscious and thus not able to protect his internal organs from, for example, the heat of a fireball.



> *Kimi's Offense*
> Kimi can tank his way through everything Itachi can throw at him and he can use the speed as well as unpredictability of his movements to catch Itachi and overpower him in CS/CS2 forms. There is really nothing by "feats" Itachi can do to stop that except utilizing bushin feints and LOS blocking grand-fireballs to try and keep his distance, but even if he turns this into a stamina contest Kimimaro would best him in that regard as well (4.5 vs 2.5).
> 
> Than there is Sawarabi no Mai which Itachi has absolutely no way to deal with, going off "feats". Gaara's sand which was fast enough to move at the same speed as CS Kimi barely evaded the eruption of Sawarabi no Mai, and that was evading it vertically, which is much easier than having to evade it horizontally which is what Itachi would have to do. And no Shunshing backwards isn't going to cut it when the DB states that Kimi can literally generates Tens of Thousands of Bone-Trees to cover an absolutely massive area in an instant. So by "feats" I do not see how Itachi would survive the initial bone eruption, but even if he does pull it off some how he'd be stuck in a forest of bones that Kimi both controls and can pop out of in an instant to attack him from a blindspot. Again he has no feats of being able to handle something like that.
> ...



Everything written in here is already addressed above.


----------



## Ghost (May 8, 2014)

Vice said:


> Someone who can survive the pressure of Prison Sand Burial ain't being taken out with a fucking kunai.
> 
> Be serious now.



CSlvl2 Kimi using his Kekkei Genkai is totally as durable as base Kimi not using his Kekkei Genkai.

Kimimaro doesn't have the reflexes to activate his bone defenses before Itachi shanks him.


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## Vice (May 8, 2014)

saikyou said:


> CSlvl2 Kimi using his Kekkei Genkai is totally as durable as base Kimi not using his Kekkei Genkai.



Durable enough to not be taken out with a fucking kunai.



> Kimimaro doesn't have the reflexes to activate his bone defenses before Itachi shanks him.



Starting distance is 100 meters and knowledge is full. At worst he'll have his entire body calcified before Itachi can even reach him. At best he can activate his curse seal and then it's over.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2014)

blk said:


> DB stats are a bullshit.


Basically calling the author's opinion BS than.



> Lee, a genin,
> I


Pointless distinction to make. Lee was a genin, but he possessed elite skills in CQC. Even outside of the author point blank stating it via DB Stats. Kakashi acknowledge Lee as being "fast" even in "base". 



> and keep up with Kimimaro just fine without even open a gate.


This is simply not true. Kimi was effortlessly dodging all of Lee's attacks. The only time Kimi had any trouble with Lee was when he used drunken fist -- something Gai the master of CQC acknowledge Lee was a master in -- and it was not Lee's speed that gave him problems, but his unpredictability. That is until Kimi himself became more unpredictable and once again dominated Lee and even  casually reacted to First-Gate Lee. And Kimi did all of this with barely drawing on any of the CS's power. 



> If Kimimaro was anywhere near Hebi Sasuke's speed, he would have blitz Lee.


Kimi casually reacted to First-Gate Lee and than proceed to blitz him. And again that was using only a tiny bit of the CS's power. 



> Itachi has full knowledge, Kimimaro's unpredictability won't be very usefull.


Lee had knowledge that Kimi could jut out his bones as well, it didn't help him. The reason being is knowing Kimi can do it still doesn't tell the fighter when and were Kimi will have bones suddenly jut out at his enemies.



> Gaara and Lee were able to escape from Sawarabi no Mai from this position [1], meaning that the bones aren't that fast;


The bones had to extend 200m through the ground in that instance and Gaara only had to lift Lee and him up vertically. Itachi has to escape the scope of Tens of thousands of Bones Trees horizontally. He has no  feat of crossing anywhere near that distance in the time that would be required.



> Also, the bones leave considerable space between one another, which means that Itachi can also avoid them by staying in the safe space between them.


I don't see how Itachi would predict where every one of the tens of thousands of bone trees and their even more numerous branches are going to pop up. But assuming he does that he's still left in a Kimi's playground and fucked ether way.



> The genjutsu defense via pain might work, however breaking the genjutsu is only part of the problem.
> Before breaking a genjutsu one has to realize to be into it, which isn't easy (especially with Itachi


Which is why I said the best chances would be the illusionary Genjutsu



> and for someone like Kimi who has apparently no big experience with them).


100% baseless. We have no clue what Kimi's experience is with Genjutsu. Though we do know he traveled around with Tayuya, Kabuto, and Orochimaru all of which are extremely skilled in Genjutsu.



> The "see through bones" thing is probably limited to Sawarabi no Mai (and even if it isn't, i don't see how he could actually fight with this method, considering the extremely limited line of sight that a bone offers).


Okay and he'd just use Sawarabi no Mai to fight Itachi than.



> Or perhaps Kimi heard them speak, considering that they heard him from under 200 meters.


Which would mean he can fight with hearing alone, thus enabling him to avoid eye contact.



> Another possibility is that he simply sneaked out of the sand trap while the bones were spawning and saw them.


So let's say Kimi can just sneak around fusing and un fusing with his bones, that would still enable him to avoid making eye contact.



> In any case it is unlikely that Kimi will be able to continually avoid Itachi's genjutsu


Why? 



> Kimi apparently cannot regenerate his internal organs (or at least not to any meaningful degree), since he needed to use bone masks under his skin for survive to Gaara's attack


He existed without half of his internal organs when using Swarabi no Mai. Pulling out ones spine and juting ones bones the way Kimi did numerous times would have caused trama to internal organs. 

Gaara's sand was dangerous as it would have completely obliterated everything and turned him into mush. 



> If he is caught in a genjutsu he won't be conscious and thus not able to protect his internal organs from, for example, the heat of a fireball.


Grand-Fireball is doing absolutely nothing; never has never will. Itachi himself who has no regeneration tanked an even stronger Katon from Sasuke with only minor burns. Sakura with lesser regeneration than Kimi tanked a point blank explosive note, that not only generate heat like grand-fireball, but also explosive force. The list goes on and on. Grand-fireball is one of the lowest end offensive Jutsu in the manga and never has caused damage even remotely close to someone who can regenerate in an instant from removing their own spine.

Edit: I also want to point out that knowledge goes both ways, and if for some reason Kimi does consider Itachi's basic Ninjutsu or physical attacks a threat to him despite his regen than he'll go CS1 or CS2 to mitigate that threat, anyway.


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## Sans (May 8, 2014)

Fucking ;ppp;;;;


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## Veracity (May 8, 2014)

The DB is terrible I don't think people should use it. 



DB stats are unreliable.
• Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
• Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
• Tsunade with a "3.5" blitzing Shizune and Oro.
• Hidan with 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to 4.5+ Sharingan Kakashi 
• Hebi Sasuke with the same speed stat as Deidara not blitzing albeit the fact that Deidara was distracted and has a poor Taijustu stat.
• Yamato and Kisame holding the same speed stat.
• PTS Lee, Kakuzu, Kisame, and PTS Kakashi all sharing the same speed stat.
• Tenten> Hiruzen in speed.
• PTS Neji> Hidan in speed.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The DB is terrible I don't think people should use it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem isn't the DB, the problem is that people look at a stat like speed and expect it to tell them precisely how fast a character is. Whether for better or worse that's not how the DB works.

The speed stat measures someone's "general" speed and the reaction speed. However, someone's proficiency with hand-seals is actually measured by the "seals" stat. Which of course would be a measure of one's hand speed and dexterity, that goes into forming those seals. So by "general" speed the DB most likely means foot-speed. Some characters can move their hands faster than they can move their feet. For example Kakashi could follow Itachi's foot-speed, but couldn't follow Itachi's hand-speed. So some characters can cast certain Jutsu or throw shuriken faster than they can move; and we need to consider both stats in that regard. Than there is also the issue of wasted movement, which according to Lee the amount of waste in someones movement is determined by their Taijutsu mastery, so the Taijutsu stat would measure that, and someone with less waste in their movement will be quicker than their speed stat indicates. Than there are speed enhancing abilities like channeling chakra to ones appendages or Shunshin, a person's skill in both would be measured by their Ninjutsu stat. 

This is to not get into special abilities and power ups.

The stats aren't flawed it's just people's expectations are too high. They want to look at one stat and be done, but it doesn't work that way. I will admit that Kishi did a bad job, naming the "speed" stat, as it is confusing to readers who don't pay attention to every detail, but i'm not sure what else he could have called it lol.

As for a detailed comparison of Kimi and Itachi's speed based on stats.

Itachi's foot-speed is faster than Base-Kimi's; but Kimi has CS to bridge that gap. Itachi's reaction speed is better, but that's to be expect with Sharingan; however Kimi's unpredictability would likely bridge that gap as well. Kimi's Taijutsu skill is greater than Itachi's however, which means less wasted movements, which ultimately should give Kimi the advantage in speed, at least when using CS. Though between two people who are both comfortably masters in Taijutsu we probably aren't going to see any major difference here. Than Itachi will probably had an edge when using Shunshin or channeling chakra to his appendages because his Ninjutsu stat is higher than Kimi's; though Kimi's is quite sufficient with a 4, so I'd expect him to be fairly good with those abilities as well. 

Where Itachi is decisively faster than Kimi is in hand-speed. He'll cast Jutsu faster than Kimi and throw shuriken/kunai faster than Kimi. Which is why I don't doubt Itachi can land Jutsu on Kimi [though the issue there would be can Itachi's Jutsu damage Kimi] or land shuriken/kunai on Kimi [which in that case won't do anything to Kimi].

Edit: The main defining factors in Kimi vs Itachi in CQC is strength. Kimi with CS far excels Itachi in that regard and thus overwhelm Itachi's guard winning the CQC struggle for him. That is until Itachi steps things up to Mangekyo-Sharingan and has Susano'o's strength backing him. There is still the issue of stamina, but that only becomes an issue if Kimi lasts long enough for Itachi's stamina to run down. Kimi won't be lasting that long when faced with Susano'o. Regen and durability are also factors, but these become obsolete thanks to Susano'o's Totsuka Sword. That's not to say Itachi necessarily needs Susano'o to defeat Kimi, that just to say in terms of pure physical combat he needs that to turn the tables on Kimi.


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## Veracity (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The problem isn't the DB, the problem is that people look at a stat like speed and expect it to tell them precisely how fast a character is. Whether for better or worse that's not how the DB works.
> 
> The speed stat measures someone's "general" speed and the reaction speed. However, someone's proficiency with hand-seals is actually measured by the "seals" stat. Which of course would be a measure of one's hand speed and dexterity, that goes into forming those seals. So by "general" speed the DB most likely means foot-speed. Some characters can move their hands faster than they can move their feet. For example Kakashi could follow Itachi's foot-speed, but couldn't follow Itachi's hand-speed. So some characters can cast certain Jutsu or throw shuriken faster than they can move; and we need to consider both stats in that regard. Than there is also the issue of wasted movement, which according to Lee the amount of waste in someones movement is determined by their Taijutsu mastery, so the Taijutsu stat would measure that, and someone with less waste in their movement will be quicker than their speed stat indicates. Than there are speed enhancing abilities like channeling chakra to ones appendages or Shunshin, a person's skill in both would be measured by their Ninjutsu stat.
> 
> ...



Kishi doesn't seriously look at these stats the way you seem to be implying. You seem to overcomplicated things far more then they need to be. When we have concrete feats of a slower character outright blitzing a faster character then there is no excuse you can make for such. Hand seal proficiency has what relevance to hand speed Turrin ? It's merely how proficient a character is at hand speed. You seem to be incorporating ur own opinions into the DB and viewing them as facts at this point.

Could you link me to Lee saying such about taijustu?

Speed is simply how fast a character can react move( foot and hand speed) and their reactions to attacks. As that's exactly what speed means. Kisame Moving all of his heavy ass sword under V1 Bee( certainly a 5 in speed) after KB moved is a ridiculous feat and shouldn't quantify that Kisame merely has a 4 in speed and reactions. Not to mention his hand seal speed is only a 3.5 and KB clearly posses equal or greater taijustu skill as him. This feat directly contradicts the DB and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Shikamaru also posses scores of 
Taijustu: 2
Speed: 2.5
HandSeal: 3 

Kakuzu:
Speed: 4
Taijustu: 4
Handseals: 3.5 
Yet failed to blitz Shikamaru with a blindside attack while he was focusing a Justu. There is also no debating this as it directly contradicts the DB.

Also we have no way to judge how advanced someone's shunshin is unless it's stated in the manga( Minato, Naruto, Ay, etc) so it's extremely complicated to associate that with the speed stat to determine speed. Gaara sports a 5 in Ninjustu ,yet I doubt his shunshin is any superior to Asuma or Kisames.


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## trance (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Basically calling the author's opinion BS than.



Yea, because Kishi is totally consistent 100% of the time, amirite?


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## blk (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Basically calling the author's opinion BS than.
> 
> 
> Pointless distinction to make. Lee was a genin, but he possessed elite skills in CQC. Even outside of the author point blank stating it via DB Stats. Kakashi acknowledge Lee as being "fast" even in "base".
> ...



DB stats are inconsistent with the manga, which is the primary source.

I wrote that Lee was keeping up with Kimimaro, not that he blitzed him. You can clearly see in the manga that none of them had any significant advantage in speed over the other (both weren't able to land an hit on one another by using a speed advantage).
Therefore, unless Lee is as fast as Hebi Sasuke (and by feats he isn't), Kimi cannot be as fast as Sasuke.

Lee didn't have _full knowledge_, he had a superficial knowledge of Kimimaro's abilities. For example, he didn't know that Kimi could put bones out of his chest [1 ; 2]. Itachi will be much more carefull.

You seem to be under the impression that the bones spawn faster than Itachi can run and Shunshin away, which i don't think is the case.



> Which is why I said the best chances would be the illusionary Genjutsu
> 
> 
> 100% baseless. We have no clue what Kimi's experience is with Genjutsu. Though we do know he traveled around with Tayuya, Kabuto, and Orochimaru all of which are extremely skilled in Genjutsu.
> ...



What i meant is that he could guess their general position by hearing their voice, not that he can literally fight effectively just by hearing people's noises.

Attacking via fusing and un-fusing with the bone trees is, imo, the only way for him to avoid Itachi's genjutsu for a significant time and still be able to fight efficently.

It's more likely that fusing with the bones render him able to live without a standard body. Otherwise, it would mean that he can regenerate from nothing (since before appearing at Gaara's location he was completely fused with the bones) which is not the case.
Therefore, losing his internal organs (not by fusing with bones) should kill him.
I don't know why putting out bones should hurt his organs.

I'm pretty sure that Sasuke's fireball hit only part of one of Itachi's arms.
If a fireball is sent in the face of an unconscious Kimimaro, the latter won't simply tank it with few burns.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2014)

blk said:


> DB stats are inconsistent with the manga, which is the primary source.


I disagree, give me examples and I'll gladly refute them. 



> I wrote that Lee was keeping up with Kimimaro, not that he blitzed him. You can clearly see in the manga that none of them had any significant advantage in speed over the other (both weren't able to land an hit on one another by using a speed advantage).
> Therefore, unless Lee is as fast as Hebi Sasuke (and by feats he isn't), Kimi cannot be as fast as Sasuke.


Except Kimi using barely any CS power blitz'd First-Gate Lee. Lee was only able to keep initially thanks to his unpredictability, the moment that failed Lee was done



> Lee didn't have full knowledge, he had a superficial knowledge of Kimimaro's abilities. For example, he didn't know that Kimi could put bones out of his chest [1 ; 2]. Itachi will be much more carefull.


The problem remains the same. Itachi won't know where, when, or how Kimi is going to have his bones jut out



> You seem to be under the impression that the bones spawn faster than Itachi can run and Shunshin away, which i don't think is the case.


No I think the bones spread in all directions so Itachi avenue of escape will be cut off. It's not that the bones appearing in front of him will happen too fast for him to react, it's that at the same time other bones will be appearing in other directions. I mean I think the fact that Itachi can't simply dodge all the bones was pretty clearly illustrated when he used Susano'o to counter them, something that would be unnecessary, if he could simply evade.



> What i meant is that he could guess their general position by hearing their voice, not that he can literally fight effectively just by hearing people's noises.


So why can't he just hide in his bones and than use sound to target Itachi.



> Attacking via fusing and un-fusing with the bone trees is, imo, the only way for him to avoid Itachi's genjutsu for a significant time and still be able to fight efficently


So there you go.



> It's more likely that fusing with the bones render him able to live without a standard body. Otherwise, it would mean that he can regenerate from nothing (since before appearing at Gaara's location he was completely fused with the bones) which is not the case.


No it would just mean he can live without internal organs functioning. Hardly surprising given the massive internal damage he was causing with his bones jutting out of his body all the time. Also not something we haven't seen before from regeneration freaks, which Kimi's feat of regenerating instantly from ripping out his own spine places them up there with. 



> Therefore, losing his internal organs (not by fusing with bones) should kill him.
> I don't know why putting out bones should hurt his organs.


There are a-lot of things that go into making an organ function I would think jutting out bones all over ones body or ripping out ones own spine would cause issues with those functions. 

And again let's assume Itachi does have a Jutsu that can hit Kimi's internal organs and Kimi would die from that, than why with full knowledge wouldn't Kimi just calcify his bones to defend from that happening?



> m pretty sure that Sasuke's fireball hit only part of one of Itachi's arms.
> If a fireball is sent in the face of an unconscious Kimimaro, the latter won't simply tank it with few burns.


Why does it matter where the fireball hit. It still hit Itachi and we saw the damage was some burns; rather than his entire arm being turned to ash. Are you really suggesting that Kimi can't regenerate from some burns when he instantly regenerated from ripping his own spine out?


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## ueharakk (May 8, 2014)

turrin, both kiba and lee have 3.5 speeds in the 1st databook while sasuke only has a 3.  Second databook gives sasuke a 3.5 and it bumps kiba and lee up to 4.

How is that possible when:
1) Kiba even with his speed enhancing powerup isn't as fast as weightless lee
2) Sasuke and Lee are explicitly stated to have the same base speed


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## Turrin (May 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> turrin, both kiba and lee have 3.5 speeds in the 1st databook while sasuke only has a 3.  Second databook gives sasuke a 3.5 and it bumps kiba and lee up to 4.
> 
> How is that possible when:
> 1) Kiba even with his speed enhancing powerup isn't as fast as weightless lee
> 2) Sasuke and Lee are explicitly stated to have the same base speed


Actually it was specifically stated that Sasuke utilizing Lee's speed consumed a considerable amount of his stamina. Thus suggesting it's probably not his natural speed, supported by Base-Naruto keeping up with Sasuke later on in the manga (unless you think Naruto was equal to unweighted Lee in speed). Most likely Sasuke was charging chakra to his limbs just like he did to match Haku's speed, who incidentally has a 4, the same stat Lee has in DB1 in speed. That combined with Sasuke copying Lee's movements with Sharingan to a certain extent and seemingly copying the opening of the 1st-Gate is what granted him that speed. 

Kiba does not have the same speed as Lee. Lee has a 4, and Kiba has a 3.5. This combined with Lee having superior Taijutsu skill (2.5 vs 3.5) and thus less wasted movement, Makes his speed comfortably above Kiba's.

Everything actually fits perfectly.


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## Risyth (May 8, 2014)

What's going on here. Who's still debating for Kimimaro.


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## ueharakk (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually it was specifically stated that Sasuke utilizing Lee's speed consumed a considerable amount of his stamina. Thus suggesting it's probably not his natural speed, supported by Base-Naruto keeping up with Sasuke later on in the manga (unless you think Naruto was equal to unweighted Lee in speed). Most likely Sasuke was charging chakra to his limbs just like he did to match Haku's speed, who incidentally has a 4, the same stat Lee has in DB1 in speed. That combined with Sasuke copying Lee's movements with Sharingan to a certain extent and seemingly copying the opening of the 1st-Gate is what granted him that speed.


Both lee and Sasuke had the same stamina issue of staying at that speed, so that alone would make them equal in speed.
Next, the amount of stamina it takes in order for Sasuke to move at a certain speed is irrelevant since that's a stamina argument.
Every shinobi uses chakra to the feet to enhance their movements, if the databook doesn't take that into account, then the speed stat is practically worthless.
In addition to that, no it was never even implied that Sasuke copied and learned how to open the gates.



Turrin said:


> Kiba does not have the same speed as Lee. Lee has a 4, and Kiba has a 3.5. This combined with Lee having superior Taijutsu skill (2.5 vs 3.5) and thus less wasted movement, Makes his speed comfortably above Kiba's.


That's the first databook.  The second databook has kiba with a 4 and lee with a 4.  Plus Kiba uses chakra enhancements + soldier pills and still isn't anywhere near lee's base speed while Sasuke with the 3.5 speed stat and no enhancements moves at lee's speed.
Plus, taijutsu skill doesn't factor into the raw speed that everyone observed lee to have.



Turrin said:


> Everything actually fits perfectly.


Absolutely not.   Just look at what you have to do in order to claim that.  You have to claim that the speed stat doesn't tell you how fast a person is.  Rather if you want to actually know how fast a person is, you have to combine the speed stat with the taijutsu and stamina stat, and even then it doesn't take into account how fast that person would be if he uses chakra to enhance his movements (which is what every shinobi does).  With that kind of logic, the databook is practically useless.  When a character has a higher speed stat than another, that character should be faster than the other, not faster only if he has the same taijutsu and stamina score + you can prove that both are/aren't using and are equally skilled at applying chakra to their feet to enhance their movements.


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## Cord (May 9, 2014)

I'm also inclined to believe that Itachi, with his Mangekyo Sharingan restricted, isn't that far above Healthy Kimimaro. But I also think that Genjutsu will screw him up as Kimimaro never actually displayed anything that suggests he won't be vulnerable to it. Also note that merely disrupting chakra flow isn't going to be enough in dispelling a Genjutsu that is cast by a Sharingan user - hence Chiyo's statement: _"If it's one on one, surely flee. If it's two on one, take the rear."_ 

Note that such statement *doesn't apply to all characters* and perhaps would only hold true to few characters who do not belong in the high-Kage spectrum. Kimimaro however, is not an exemption. He wasn't shown to have any viable counters to Genjutsu and to someone has always been known to cast it almost flawlessly, whether through his eyes or fingers. Take into account, that the same maneuver blindsided a former Sannin almost effortlessly. 

There will be some sort of struggle between the two, definitely. I'm just going to lean towards Itachi whom I'd trust to be more than capable of placing Kimimaro in a Genjutsu, eventually.


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## Bkprince33 (May 9, 2014)

If we go by portrayal itachi soloed his master with genjutsu, oro then admitted he was inferior, I doubt kishi would then draw itachi losing to one of Oro henchmen,  it just makes no sense.


from a feat standpoint itachi sparred with kcm and bee and came out unscathed.


kimmi was struck by drunk Lee who wasn't at 100 percent, it's clear itachi is above his level,  not saying he stomps without ms, but the gap is clear and apparent.


----------



## Turrin (May 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Both lee and Sasuke had the same stamina issue of staying at that speed, so that alone would make them equal in speed.
> .


When was it stated that Lee and Sasuke had the same stamina issue?



> Next, the amount of stamina it takes in order for Sasuke to move at a certain speed is irrelevant since that's a stamina argument.
> Every shinobi uses chakra to the feet to enhance their movements, if the databook doesn't take that into account, then the speed stat is practically worthless.


Depends how you look at it. You can tell someone's base-speed from the speed stat and than guesstimate how good they should be at the chakra skill from their Ninjutsu stat. 



> In addition to that, no it was never even implied that Sasuke copied and learned how to open the gates.


*Don't waste my time.
*



> That's the first databook. The second databook has kiba with a 4 and lee with a 4. Plus Kiba uses chakra enhancements + soldier pills and still isn't anywhere near lee's base speed while Sasuke with the 3.5 speed stat and no enhancements moves at lee's speed.
> .


Okay and I have no problem believing Kiba is close to "base" Lee's speed, though ultimate inferior as he has more waste in his movement not being as good as Lee at Taijutsu.



> Plus, taijutsu skill doesn't factor into the raw speed that everyone observed lee to have.


Yes it does, as Lee stated it factors into waste of movement. Less waste of movement the faster your going to be.



> Absolutely not. Just look at what you have to do in order to claim that. You have to claim that the speed stat doesn't tell you how fast a person is. Rather if you want to actually know how fast a person is, you have to combine the speed stat with the taijutsu and stamina stat, and even then it doesn't take into account how fast that person would be if he uses chakra to enhance his movements (which is what every shinobi does). With that kind of logic, the databook is practically useless. When a character has a higher speed stat than another, that character should be faster than the other, not faster only if he has the same taijutsu and stamina score + you can prove that both are/aren't using and are equally skilled at applying chakra to their feet to enhance their movements.


Like I said people want to just look at one stat and be done. When they are told that they need to look at more than one stat, they say the DB is useless. This is only another example of that.


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## Stermor (May 9, 2014)

are we really putting up kimi against itachi.. 

lol kurenai would be a better matchup. 

kurenai blitzed neji, neji beats lee , lee outspeeds kimi. kurenai puts kimi in a genjutsu and wins.


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## ueharakk (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> When was it stated that Lee and Sasuke had the same stamina issue?


Never stated, but it was blatantly shown.  *Lee* and *Sasuke* are both in the same physical condition after landing 2 hits on gaara, and it's because of sasuke's physical situation that lee comments that the movement uses a lot of stamina.  



Turrin said:


> Depends how you look at it. You can tell someone's base-speed from the speed stat and than guesstimate how good they should be at the chakra skill from their Ninjutsu stat.


What's the point of the speed stat then if everyone amplifies their movments with this?  Plus by that logic, naruto would have been better at using chakra to the feet than sakura, yet we know that's not true.  It's not just skill, but it's the quantity and quality of chakra that one puts into their feet.



Turrin said:


> *Sasuke*


yeah, he copied lee's taijutsu movements like the hits he did on Gaara or the lion combo that was based on the movements of primary lotus.  Obviously not the first gate. 



Turrin said:


> Okay and I have no problem believing Kiba is close to "base" Lee's speed, though ultimate inferior as he has more waste in his movement not being as good as Lee at Taijutsu.


Kiba wasn't anywhere near lee's base speed even with his powered up form, and wasted movements has nothing to do with getting from point A to point B or running in circles or lines.  If base Kiba is close to base lee's speed, then why is kiba in a speed enhanced form and chakra tripled not even close to lee's base speed?



Turrin said:


> Yes it does, as Lee stated it factors into waste of movement. Less waste of movement the faster your going to be.


When did lee say that having less wasted movements = getting from point A to point B faster?  Kimimaro completely trumped lee in having no wasted movements yet lee is able to run circles around kimi.




Turrin said:


> Like I said people want to just look at one stat and be done. When they are told that they need to look at more than one stat, they say the DB is useless. This is only another example of that.


If the databook lists a 'speed' stat, and you have to look at 3 other stats in addition to almost blindly gauging how well a person can add chakra to their feet in order to gauge how fast they are, then it is useless.  You could rationalize how person A is faster than person B, and you could also rationalize the exact reverse situation where person B is faster than person A with the same exact information.


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## Garcher (May 9, 2014)

Itachi rapes him. The potrayal about the difference in power could not be any clearer


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## Turrin (May 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Never stated, but it was blatantly shown.  *Lee* and *Sasuke* are both in the same physical condition after landing 2 hits on gaara, and it's because of sasuke's physical situation that lee comments that the movement uses a lot of stamina.
> .


I think your reaching if all you have is one panel of Lee panting. 



> that's the point of the speed stat then if everyone amplifies their movments with this?


Simple, you use multiple stats not just one to reach a conclusion. Plus the same discourse could be used against "feats", I.E. what's the point of "feats" if characters speed can keep changing depend on whether they are enhancing it or not, which Kishi doesn't really bother to show us outside of the wave-arc.



> Plus by that logic, naruto would have been better at using chakra to the feet than sakura, yet we know that's not true. It's not just skill, but it's the quantity and quality of chakra that one puts into their fee


By what logic?




> eah, he copied lee's taijutsu movements like the hits he did on Gaara or the lion combo that was based on the movements of primary lotus. Obviously not the first gate.


Certainly seems similar to when Lee opened the first Gate:
*Sasuke*

*Sasuke*

However even you don't buy that, it's really irrelevant to the discussion anyway. 



> Kiba wasn't anywhere near lee's base speed even with his powered up form, and wasted movements has nothing to do with getting from point A to point B or running in circles or lines. If base Kiba is close to base lee's speed, then why is kiba in a speed enhanced form and chakra tripled not even close to lee's base speed?


I'm not sure where your getting the idea from that SRA-Kiba isn't close to Lee's "base" speed. Can you expand on that thought first.



> When did lee say that having less wasted movements = getting from point A to point B faster?


It seems common sensical to me that if your wasting movements that your going to take longer to perform any action. Can you perhaps explain why that is not the case?



> Kimimaro completely trumped lee in having no wasted movements yet lee is able to run circles around kimi.


When did Lee ever run circles around Kimi? Kimi was effortlessly dodging Lee's attacks. The only time Lee triumphed Kimi was when he became unpredictable while using drunken-fist, which was also indicated to have upped his Taijutsu skill immensely given Gai's hype of the Lee's ability with drunken fist. Than Kimi became unpredictable himself and once again best Lee, and even blitz Lee while using minimal power from his CS.



> If the databook lists a 'speed' stat, and you have to look at 3 other stats in addition to almost blindly gauging how well a person can add chakra to their feet in order to gauge how fast they are, then it is useless. You could rationalize how person A is faster than person B, and you could also rationalize the exact reverse situation where person B is faster than person A with the same exact information.


Whether fortunately or unfortunately Kishimoto has introduced many ways for a character to augment their physical foot-speed via Ninjutsu. Due to this there are many inconsistencies in speed, whether it be in the DB or in manga-cannon "feats"; this is simply something we have to role with. However it does not make the DB speed stat in-correct for what it's measuring. As for it's usefulness well, it depends how you want to use it. if you want to simply be able to look at one stat to get the whole picture of how fast a character can be, than unfortunately it is useless. Just like looking a single speed "feat" from a certain character is useless in determining the whole picture of a characters speed. Just like we need to look at more "feats", we have to look at more stats. Though at least with the stats we can get a rough estimation of how fast a character should be by looking at 3 other stats, most of the time with "feats" we need much more speed "feats" than simply 3 more to get the whole picture. So it's kind of a pick your poison type deal.

The only time this is not the case is when the author directly states someone is using their max-speed, but that's why statements are king.


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## blk (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I disagree, give me examples and I'll gladly refute them.
> 
> 
> Except Kimi using barely any CS power blitz'd First-Gate Lee. Lee was only able to keep initially thanks to his unpredictability, the moment that failed Lee was done
> ...



The fact that Kimimaro has the same speed of Hebi Sasuke is in itself an inconsistency.
But if you want more, you can look at this thread [].

Here you can see Lee dodging all of Kimi's attacks [2]. Here Kimi runs at Lee and the latter react without a problem [3].
In the instance where Lee uses the first gate, Kimi defends himself with bones [4 ; 5 ; 6].
I don't see Kimimaro blitzing anyone in those scans.

Itachi had to use Susano'o because there were no places to go, they were sorrounded.
Even if the bones appear to spread in every direction (in a circular manner), i still don't see why Itachi can't simply jump/run back for avoid the them. Unless you mean that the bones appear at the same time in between the starting and ending points of the jutsu (doesn't seem to be the case).



> So why can't he just hide in his bones and than use sound to target Itachi.
> 
> 
> So there you go.
> ...



You are saying that Kimimaro can regenerate his organs because when he is fused with the bones, they are lost. However this would mean that Kimimaro can regenerate from nothing, since before arriving at Gaara's position he passed through the bones with the entirety of his body (which by your interpretation would mean that his entire body would be lost).
The fact that Kimi needed to protect himself from Gaara's sand prison goes directly against this interpretation.

Chances are that Kimimaro's regeneration is not enough if his internal organs are heavily damaged (putting out bones probably cause relatively minor wounds to the whole system).

Itachi immediately extinguished the fire on his arm, if Kimimaro's head is set on fire and it is not extinguished fastly he will be heavily damaged.


----------



## ueharakk (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think your reaching if all you have is one panel of Lee panting.


Cmon now.  Are we arguing truth, or are we simply sticking to whatever we initially asserted as true and attempt to defend it tooth and nail?  The manga doesn't give any evidence that lee doesn't experience the same stamina issues as sasuke.

On the other hand the manga heavily implies that BOTH experience the stamina issue as lee makes his comment after observing sasuke's condition after using that speed for multiple attacks while lee is shown to be in the exact same condition after landing 2 hits on gaara.  Lee's statement about stamina and moving at that speed was a general statement, not specifically about sasuke and his predicament which means it would also apply to lee moving at that speed as well.  The entire context of lee's statement was to point out the fact that like lee experienced, you can't beat gaara with just that super speed since you'll tire out before, you need a powerful kill move like the lotus or chidori.



Turrin said:


> Simple, you use multiple stats not just one to reach a conclusion. Plus the same discourse could be used against "feats", I.E. what's the point of "feats" if characters speed can keep changing depend on whether they are enhancing it or not, which Kishi doesn't really bother to show us outside of the wave-arc.


but those stats don't tell you how much a person's speed increases via that.  Feats don't have that problem since we get relative character speeds outside of shunshin.



Turrin said:


> By what logic?


because naruto has a higher ninjutsu stat than her, and we know that quantity and quality of chakra affects potency of techniques.




Turrin said:


> Certainly seems similar to when Lee opened the first Gate:
> 6
> 
> 6
> ...


Gai explicitly states that sasuke's speed = lee's starting speed w/o weights, therefore you can't claim that sasuke is moving as fast as 1 gated lee.



Turrin said:


> I'm not sure where your getting the idea from that SRA-Kiba isn't close to Lee's "base" speed. Can you expand on that thought first.


it's not SRA kiba, it's chuunin exam kiba since CE Sasuke gets a 3.5 in speed.  If you want to talk about SRA Kiba, kimimaro called weightless lee fast, yet the far inferior members of the sound 4 made no such comment on kiba's speed.



Turrin said:


> It seems common sensical to me that if your wasting movements that your going to take longer to perform any action. Can you perhaps explain why that is not the case?


Because the statement about wasted movements is never about a race in getting from point A to point B.  It's about a taijutsu exchanges or contorting the body, eye hand coordination in order to dodge, block and attack with the least amount of movements as possible.  Unless of course you can bring up that panel that talks about 'wasted movement' and show how it reflects ones ability to simply move from place to place.



Turrin said:


> When did Lee ever run circles around Kimi? Kimi was effortlessly dodging Lee's attacks. The only time Lee triumphed Kimi was when he became unpredictable while using drunken-fist, which was also indicated to have upped his Taijutsu skill immensely given Gai's hype of the Lee's ability with drunken fist. Than Kimi became unpredictable himself and once again best Lee, and even blitz Lee while using minimal power from his CS.


*lee running circles around kimi.* *kimi calling his speed impressive.* 



Turrin said:


> Whether fortunately or unfortunately Kishimoto has introduced many ways for a character to augment their physical foot-speed via Ninjutsu. Due to this there are many inconsistencies in speed, whether it be in the DB or in manga-cannon "feats"; this is simply something we have to role with. However it does not make the DB speed stat in-correct for what it's measuring. *As for it's usefulness well, it depends how you want to use it. if you want to simply be able to look at one stat to get the whole picture of how fast a character can be, than unfortunately it is useless. Just like looking a single speed "feat" from a certain character is useless in determining the whole picture of a characters speed. Just like we need to look at more "feats", we have to look at more stats. Though at least with the stats we can get a rough estimation of how fast a character should be by looking at 3 other stats, most of the time with "feats" we need much more speed "feats" than simply 3 more to get the whole picture. So it's kind of a pick your poison type deal.*


The bolded i completely disagree with.  With the speed stat not indicating how fast a person actually is, and the need to incorporate 3 whole other stats on top of individual skill with things like chakra to the feet, characters can be placed whereever one wants to place them.  All you are doing is making the range of error for the databook so great that it will encompass the manga feats that would outright falsify that databook score.  Yet when you do that, you eliminate the usefullness for the databook.  

And no, looking at more feats is absolutely not the same as incorporating more stats.  Our knowledge increases with the more feats we use to analyze how fast a certain character is, our knowledge decreases when we have to use more stats in order to analyze how fast a character is while we're just left with this huge margin of error that will encompass the outliers (and thus not be falsified) but at the same time, it leaves us clueless about how fast characters are in relation to each other when the databook is used as a standalone source.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

blk said:


> The fact that Kimimaro has the same speed of Hebi Sasuke is in itself an inconsistency.


Okay and we're discussing that, so....




> But if you want more, you can look at this thread [1].


I'm not going to go through every one of those faulty claims. Why don't you pick one or two you find the most let's say "controversial" and i'll address them.



> Here you can see Lee dodging all of Kimi's attacks [2]. Here Kimi runs at Lee and the latter react without a problem [3].


And that was drunk lee, who was once again giving Kimi problems due to his unorthodox movements and rise in Taijutsu skill.



> In the instance where Lee uses the first gate, Kimi defends himself with bones [4 ; 5 ; 6].


So what if he was using his bones to defend, it still shows him reacting to Lee's movements and than blitzing him. 



> I don't see Kimimaro blitzing anyone in those scans.


Please refer to the first panel on this page:
Suigetsu putting him down shortly



> Itachi had to use Susano'o because there were no places to go, they were sorrounded.


Which is exactly the issue, the bones are so numerous that they cut off avenues of escape



> Itachi had to use Susano'o because there were no places to go, they were sorrounded.
> Even if the bones appear to spread in every direction (in a circular manner), i still don't see why Itachi can't simply jump/run back for avoid the them. Unless you mean that the bones appear at the same time in between the starting and ending points of the jutsu (doesn't seem to be the case).


I'm saying that the bones appear at different locations. Not all at the same time, but not at all at different times ether. Itachi would need to predict exactly where all the bones were going to appear, while bones are appearing outside of his line of sight. 



> You are saying that Kimimaro can regenerate his organs because when he is fused with the bones, they are lost. However this would mean that Kimimaro can regenerate from nothing, since before arriving at Gaara's position he passed through the bones with the entirety of his body (which by your interpretation would mean that his entire body would be lost).


Except the bones he is fused with are not nothing, that's still a piece of his body with his chakra in it left in tact. Basically there is still a structure there, which is different than if Gaara crushed everything to nothing.



> Chances are that Kimimaro's regeneration is not enough if his internal organs are heavily damaged (putting out bones probably cause relatively minor wounds to the whole system).


Pulling out ones spine causes minor wounds to the whole system? I highly doubt that.

And once again, you keep dodging this question: "let's assume Itachi does have a Jutsu that can hit Kimi's internal organs and Kimi would die from that, than why with full knowledge wouldn't Kimi just calcify his bones to defend from that happening?"

That's the issue blk, even if your right, your still wrong due to the knowledge stipulation.



> tachi immediately extinguished the fire on his arm, if Kimimaro's head is set on fire and it is not extinguished fastly he will be heavily damaged


More damage than having his spine ripped out. Come on now.



ueharakk said:


> Cmon now.  Are we arguing truth, or are we simply sticking to whatever we initially asserted as true and attempt to defend it tooth and nail?


Ueharakk your proactively arguing against what the author stated. You are basing this on the assumption that Lee consumes the same exact stamina as Sasuke via single panel of Lee panting. I do not think it's fair of you to than turn around and lecture me about truth. 



> On the other hand the manga heavily implies that BOTH experience the stamina issue as lee makes his comment after observing sasuke's condition after using that speed for multiple attacks while lee is shown to be in the exact same condition after landing 2 hits on gaara.


Panting is not indicative of two characters being in the exact same physical conditions. On-top of that this ignores everything leading up to that moment. Did Sasuke fight Gaara with insane weights on his legs prior to that moment as Lee did?



> Lee's statement about stamina and moving at that speed was a general statement, not specifically about sasuke and his predicament which means it would also apply to lee moving at that speed as well.


Saying something expends a-lot of energy does not mean the energy expenditure is the same.



> he entire context of lee's statement was to point out the fact that like lee experienced, you can't beat gaara with just that super speed since you'll tire out before, you need a powerful kill move like the lotus or chidori.


The entire point of the convo was to illustrate that if Lee couldn't win with Taijutsu how is Sasuke going to win. Hence, a set up for Sasuke utilizing a Ninjutsu; Chidori. I do not see how that helps your assertions tho.



> but those stats don't tell you how much a person's speed increases via that.


If someone has a 5 in Ninjutsu we can expect them to be able to augment their speed a great deal. Does that tell us precisely; not it doesn't, but nether do "feats".



> Feats don't have that problem since we get relative character speeds outside of shunshin.


"Feats" have the same problem as we do not know if a person is utilizing chakra to their appendages or not. So when we look at Y speed "Feat" we have no way to establish if that was their best or lowest speed. I'll however agree that for characters that are very heavily featured, we may have a better sense of their "range", due to the sheer number of "Feats" they have. But we are talking about a very select few characters that have had the necessary match ups and screen time for us to build a comprehensive understanding of that "range". In most cases the DB gives us a better sense of that range than "feats" do. 



> because naruto has a higher ninjutsu stat than her, and we know that quantity and quality of chakra affects potency of techniques.


Okay, but what is your problem with Naruto being better at that skill than Sakura? Sakura was better initially, but than Naruto trained his ass off during the wave arc, and ultimately Naruto mastered it, and did better than Sakura, reaching the very top of the tree. Additionally DBI goes up to the CE-Finals, so that's after Naruto received further training in this regard from Ebizu and legendary sannin Jiriaya, teaching him the water walking method. So I would expect Naruto to be better by the time of DB1's release and see no contradiction to speak of.



> Gai explicitly states that sasuke's speed = lee's starting speed w/o weights, therefore you can't claim that sasuke is moving as fast as 1 gated lee.


What does "starting-speed" mean? That can easily mean the speed Lee obtains when starting the initial lotus.



> it's not SRA kiba, it's chuunin exam kiba since CE Sasuke gets a 3.5 in speed.


CE Kiba is not equal to Lee in speed according to the DB. So I fail to see what your point is, can you clarify this?



> If you want to talk about SRA Kiba, kimimaro called weightless lee fast, yet the far inferior members of the sound 4 made no such comment on kiba's speed.


A lack of a comment is a pretty flimsy basis for arguing against what the author directly stated. I'm sorry it just is.



> Because the statement about wasted movements is never about a race in getting from point A to point B. It's about a taijutsu exchanges or contorting the body, eye hand coordination in order to dodge, block and attack with the least amount of movements as possible. Unless of course you can bring up that panel that talks about 'wasted movement' and show how it reflects ones ability to simply move from place to place.


Why do you think form matters when running then?



> lee running circles around kimi. kimi calling his speed impressive.


Really your big evidence is Lee running around a Kimi who isn't bothering to move. Which results in Kimi effortlessly reacting and than blitzing Lee. Come on now this is just getting silly.



> The bolded i completely disagree with. With the speed stat not indicating how fast a person actually is, and the need to incorporate 3 whole other stats on top of individual skill with things like chakra to the feet, characters can be placed whereever one wants to place them. All you are doing is making the range of error for the databook so great that it will encompass the manga feats that would outright falsify that databook score. Yet when you do that, you eliminate the usefullness for the databook.


It is completely unfair to blame the DB, because you have to look at the Ninjutsu stat to understand a characters skill with a Ninjutsu technique. 



> And no, looking at more feats is absolutely not the same as incorporating more stats. Our knowledge increases with the more feats we use to analyze how fast a certain character is, our knowledge decreases when we have to use more stats in order to analyze how fast a character is while we're just left with this huge margin of error that will encompass the outliers (and thus not be falsified) but at the same time, it leaves us clueless about how fast characters are in relation to each other when the databook is used as a standalone source.


I do not think I ever advocated the use of the DB exclusively when it comes to purely measuring a characters speed. The fact of the matter is when measuring a characters speed "feats" and DB should be considered. I am simply defending the notion that there is straight up false information in the DB, which there isn't, it's just that speed is one of the most difficult things to measure in this manga because it comes from so many difference sources (Taijutsu, Hand-Speed, Foot-Speed, Ninjutsu Techs, and even special abilities). 

With that said I find the DB more useful than "feats" in most cases, because in most cases characters do not have the comprehensive "feats" list that is necessary to use "feats" as a measuring stick. Some do, but they are few and far between


----------



## blk (May 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay and we're discussing that, so....
> 
> I'm not going to go through every one of those faulty claims. Why don't you pick one or two you find the most let's say "controversial" and i'll address them.



What about the first one: "Zaku much higher Ninjutsu than Sasuke [3.5-2.5]
Zaku's only ninjutsu being a D rank jutsu and a C rank jutsu. The argument here can't be "knowledge" because his intelligence stat (which measures knowledge and IQ) is a 1. Clearly, this guy has no "knowledge" at all".




> And that was drunk lee, who was once again giving Kimi problems due to his unorthodox movements and rise in Taijutsu skill.
> 
> So what if he was using his bones to defend, it still shows him reacting to Lee's movements and than blitzing him.
> 
> ...



Dodging and reacting to something has nothing to do with the taijutsu style, but with reflexes and speed.

That is just Kimimaro pointing his hand in the face of Lee and starting to throw a bone to his face, while the latter's legs are in part stuck in the chest bones. 

Unless you show Kimi using his raw speed (or shunshin) to overwhelm Lee (with the latter barely being able to react or not reacting at all), you have no evidences.



> Which is exactly the issue, the bones are so numerous that they cut off avenues of escape
> 
> 
> I'm saying that the bones appear at different locations. Not all at the same time, but not at all at different times ether. Itachi would need to predict exactly where all the bones were going to appear, while bones are appearing outside of his line of sight.



Ok, so you mean that the bones also appears in between the starting and ending points of the jutsu (even though not necessarily all at the same time); well, provide evidences for this.



> Except the bones he is fused with are not nothing, that's still a piece of his body with his chakra in it left in tact. Basically there is still a structure there, which is different than if Gaara crushed everything to nothing.
> 
> Pulling out ones spine causes minor wounds to the whole system? I highly doubt that.
> 
> ...



So you agree that the feat is limited to the case of Sawarabi no Mai, which also means that you agree with the notion that, outside of said jutsu, he will die if his organs are heavily damaged/destroyed.

I wrote "relatively minor", i doubt that pulling out bones completely destroys, or heavily damage to the point of no return, his organs.

I was writing with the assumption that Kimi was already under a genjutsu, therefore unconscious and unable to actively protect himself with bone masks, while Itachi hit him with a deadly attack.

Having your brain and eyes melting is less deadly than having your spine taken out? I beg to differ.


----------



## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

blk said:


> What about the first one: "Zaku much higher Ninjutsu than Sasuke [3.5-2.5]
> Zaku's only ninjutsu being a D rank jutsu and a C rank jutsu. The argument here can't be "knowledge" because his intelligence stat (which measures knowledge and IQ) is a 1. Clearly, this guy has no "knowledge" at all".
> .


I don't know why this one is even an issue. Sasuke was only packing C to D Rank Jutsu at the time himself, so it's not like he has anything super impressive that would discount the possibility that one of Orochimaru's minions could have better Ninjutsu than him at the time of DB1.

I also find the argument against  ninjutsu knowledge poorly thought out. Zaku traveled with Ninjutsu freak Orochimaru, so his knowledge may have been very high in that regard. His intelligence stat measures IQ and knowledge so his IQ may be what is lacking as well as his knowledge in other areas, rather then him having a massive deficiency in Ninjutsu knowledge.



> Dodging and reacting to something has nothing to do with the taijutsu style, but with reflexes and speed.


Better Taijutsu means less wasted movement, which means your quicker to move. Like-wise unpredictability has to with how hard it is to hit someone, as you don't know where to aim your attack. 



> That is just Kimimaro pointing his hand in the face of Lee and starting to throw a bone to his face,


Which blitz'd Lee, as he couldn't react in time and needed Gaara to save him.



> while the latter's legs are in part stuck in the chest bones.


 I don't see any indication his leg was stuck. His leg even comes free of the bones easily when Gaara saves him:
_[3]_



> Unless you show Kimi using his raw speed (or shunshin) to overwhelm Lee (with the latter barely being able to react or not reacting at all), you have no evidences.


I show Kimi casually reacting to G1-Lee and than blitzing G1-Lee, and thats not evidence. Sorry, but that explicitly shows he can not only keep up with someone of G1-Lee's speed easily, but attack someone of G1-Lee's speed before they can react. 



> Ok, so you mean that the bones also appears in between the starting and ending points of the jutsu (even though not necessarily all at the same time); well, provide evidences for this.


Look at where Lee and Gaara are in this panel. They are separated by a relatively large distance and diagonal to Garaa:
_[3]_

Yet when Kishimoto shows Sawarbi no Mai being used the bones are coming out in-front of Lee and Gaara:
Link removed

That shows them popping up in different areas.

Than when it's used against Itachi and Sasuke. You can see it popping up in one direction:
Link removed
But than in the very next panel you can see that it was also popping up behind them and to both sides of them:
Link removed



> So you agree that the feat is limited to the case of Sawarabi no Mai, which also means that you agree with the notion that, outside of said jutsu, he will die if his organs are heavily damaged/destroyed.


Nope I think the feat is limit to Kimi still have some structure to his body intact. Whether that be the Bone-Tree he's fused with or something else.



> I wrote "relatively minor", i doubt that pulling out bones completely destroys, or heavily damage to the point of no return, his organs.


His organs won't be able to function though, which means he was able to live w/o organs functioning. 

But i'm curious what attacks do you see doing this much damage to Kimi that Itachi has shown?



> I was writing with the assumption that Kimi was already under a genjutsu, therefore unconscious and unable to actively protect himself with bone masks, while Itachi hit him with a deadly attack.


I know what your saying, but i'm saying that Kimi would just calcify his bones at the start of the match or go CS2 right away. That way if Itachi did catch him he wouldn't be able to do anything.



> Having your brain and eyes melting is less deadly than having your spine taken out? I beg to diff


Once again the Katon never showed the ability to melt. Did Itachi's arm melt off.


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## Jad (May 10, 2014)

I doubt Lee and Sasuke have the same stamina issue.

Lee had just come from the second round of the Chuunin exams and had to fight against Gaara after a bit of a breather of watching other people fight. Sasuke came in fresh. Remember he used Omote Renge in the second round of the Chuunin exams (against Dosu) and needed carrying. Plus all the other injuries and scuffs he got afterwords and before.​


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