# Itachi's Tsukuyomi vs. Hashirama



## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

What happens?


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## Bonly (Jul 1, 2015)

Hashi deals with whatever Itachi throws his way and he'd prolly end up in decent fight condition afterwords


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## Alex Payne (Jul 1, 2015)

Willpower, strong chakra and passive high-end regen? Hashirama will be shaken but in a decent condition afterwards.


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## Ghost (Jul 1, 2015)

Hashi won't be able to break out on his own but will still be conscious after taking it.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

He more-or-less shrugs it off.

I also wouldn't be surprised if his overwhelming chakra, which absolutely dwarfs Itachi's and is Ashura incarnate chakra no less, allowed him to break out of it with some effort.


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## Garcher (Jul 1, 2015)

Hashirama will suck Itachi's dick probably if Hashi is lucky

if he has bad luck he will faint and be completely brainfucked


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## Six (Jul 1, 2015)

This is a hard one, literally Itachi could torture him for days if not years due to the fact that he controls time.

Everyone, no matter how strong you are has a breaking at which they just crack and can no longer take anymore. If Hashirama can somehow break out early and come out with little damage then he should be good.

But I give it to tsukuyomi 6 maybe 7 times out of 10. At the end of the day, no matter how strong he is, he is still human. He was killed by blades and kunai so the second most powerful genjutsu destroying him isn't far fetched.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 1, 2015)

Uneffective via fighting against Madara before


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

As much as I like Hashirama, Itachi drops him with Tsukiyomi.
We've seen how a weaker shinobi can pose a lethal threat to a god level one, Sasuke & Naruto vs Shin.

Just because Hashirama is fuckloads stronger than Itachi doesn't mean he'll just shrug off everything Itachi throws @ him.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> He more-or-less shrugs it off.
> 
> I also wouldn't be surprised if his overwhelming chakra, which absolutely dwarfs Itachi's and is Ashura incarnate chakra no less, allowed him to break out of it with some effort.




Too bad thats not how Genjutsu works, in fact Naruto a guy with the strongest Biju's chakra in him and who is actually the successor of Ashura, couldn't break out of Itachi's regular Genjutsu, Let Alone one of the strongest MS Genjutsu. Hashirama ain't breaking out of Tsukiyomi

Now for the Thread since Hashirama is so god mode and all that, I wouldn't be surprised if he could Tank it, like physical torture would be pointless with the life Hashirama lived he's used to pain having fought every day. What possible mental torture could Itachi give to Hashirama? its not like Itachi knew him personally, just Generic torture wouldn't work. So probably wearied but still able to fight afterwords.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Too bad thats not how Genjutsu works, in fact Naruto a guy with the strongest Biju's chakra in him and who is actually the successor of Ashura, couldn't break out of Itachi's regular Genjutsu, Let Alone one of the strongest MS Genjutsu. Hashirama ain't breaking out of Tsukiyomi


My god man. Did you just compare early to middle Shippuden Naruto to Hashirama?


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> My god man. Did you just compare early to middle Shippuden Naruto to Hashirama?




You're acting like i'm comparing them in strength, I'm not, I'm directly comparing their amount of chakra which according to you will help break Tsukiyomi instantly  which not only makes zero sense. But also obviously not true since Naruto had MORE chakra then Hashirama had and couldn't break out of a REGULAR Genjutsu. According to you, Naruto should have just walked out of the Genjutsu. Or why couldn't Kurama a Biju MADE of Chakra be affected by Genjutsu at all? It literally has UNLIMITED amount of Chakra, According to you it shouldn't be possible to put it in a genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

Hashirama won't notice he is even in Tskuyomi 
It hits him . He thinks impressive he got good eyes but Yh am hashirama


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> As much as I like Hashirama, Itachi drops him with Tsukiyomi.
> We've seen how a weaker shinobi can pose a lethal threat to a god level one, Sasuke & Naruto vs Shin.
> 
> Just because Hashirama is fuckloads stronger than Itachi doesn't mean he'll just shrug off everything Itachi throws @ him.



Right on, Shin. Right on.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> You're acting like i'm comparing them in strength, I'm not, I'm directly comparing their amount of chakra which according to you will help break Tsukiyomi instantly  which not only makes zero sense. But also obviously not true since Naruto had MORE chakra then Hashirama had and couldn't break out of a REGULAR Genjutsu. According to you, Naruto should have just walked out of the Genjutsu. Or why couldn't Kurama a Biju MADE of Chakra be affected by Genjutsu at all? It literally has UNLIMITED amount of Chakra, According to you it shouldn't be possible to put it in a genjutsu.


Actually strength is directly correlated to how well an individual is able to utilize their chakra. Or did you forget how Naruto had to learn how to use KCM and then was able to access more of Kurama's chakra unrestrained when he gained BM? Or is your position that beginning of PTI Naruto = Hashirama in terms of chakra efficiency and control?


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Actually strength is directly correlated to how well an individual is able to utilize their chakra. Or did you forget how Naruto had to learn how to use KCM and then was able to access more of Kurama's chakra unrestrained when he gained BM? Or is your position that beginning of PTI Naruto = Hashirama in terms of chakra efficiency and control?




Nowhere in your original post was this brought up, All you said was Hashirama because of his overwhelming Chakra would break out of Tsukiyomi. So using that logic Naruto should be able to break out of a Regular Genjutsu. Now that your talking about Chakra control and BS then obviously Naruto isn't good at compared to Hashirama. Though in Tsukiyomi Chakra control won't help you break it, there isn't enough time to break it with that method, being that you only have 1 second in Real time to do it. Which is why it was pretty much stated you need MS or atleast another Sharingan to break it. If Raw Chakra Control was the only factor required to break it why would it be Hyped as Itachi's Strongest Genjutsu, if it can be broken like any other genjutsu.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Nowhere in your original post was this brought up, All you said was Hashirama because of his overwhelming Chakra would break out of Tsukiyomi.


Because it goes without saying. Hashirama _is _the individual being discussed here, so I don't need to remind everyone how his efficiency and control over his chakra is top-tier.



> So using that logic Naruto should be able to break out of a Regular Genjutsu. Now that your talking about Chakra control and BS then obviously Naruto isn't good at compared to Hashirama. Though in Tsukiyomi Chakra control won't help you break it, there isn't enough time to break it with that method, being that you only have 1 second in Real time to do it. Which is why it was pretty much stated you need MS or atleast another Sharingan to break it. If Raw Chakra Control was the only factor required to break it why would it be Hyped as Itachi's Strongest Genjutsu, if it can be broken like any other genjutsu.


I'm not sure where you're getting half the things you have here. No where did I say that Hashirama of all people being able to break-out of Tsukuyomi with his overhwhelming chakra makes Tsukuyomi a fodder-level genjutsu. In fact, since I specifically referenced his overwhelming chakra that should be an indicator that not just any ham-and-egger with "ordinary" chakra could do so.

Secondly, as BZ so eloquently eluded to: the Sharingan is just another tool at a shinobi's disposal. It's helps, but is not necessary. An expert with a stone can beat a novice with a shuriken and Hashirama just happens to be in his own tier as an expert in many facets massively ahead of guys like Itachi. The mere fact that BZ _thought _it possible that Sasuke w/ his 3-tomoe could overcome Itachi's Tsukuyomi by being better with his rock (Shaingan) tells you all you need to know.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 1, 2015)

Hashirama Tsukuyomi's Itachi.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 1, 2015)

Bringer of darkness GG.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Shin is a tool with a weak-as-shit technique and bested two individuals who could each stomp Hashirama. So Itachi landing Tsukuyomi and Tsukuyomi being successful isn't ludicrous.

The manga outlines that only Uchiha with the Sharingan can best Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Hashirama fits neither of those. And Madara was never shown/said to have a time-manipulated Tsukuyomi.

-

Chakra control is a non-factor with Itachi's Tsukuyomi, because the technique begin and ends within the same moment. There's no time for chakra to move at all.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 1, 2015)

I don't think Itachi could ever successfully hold Hashirama in Tsukuyomi with the latter's extremely powerful chakra or masterful control of it. The fact that Madara has never been able to get the best of him even while likely being a superior or at the very least equal genjutsu user to Itachi means Hashirama can without a doubt break out.

I mean, do people think TBM Naruto can't break out of Tsukuyomi as well? Think of no-limits fallacies here. The most skilled, chakra-control-wise, that Itachi has ever bound in Tsukuyomi is Hebi Sasuke. Naruto was already shitting on Minato in terms of skill whilst battling against Jūbi.

Tsukuyomi isn't an insta-win, just as Zetsu thought Amatrrasu wasn't an insta-win against Sage Naruto.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 1, 2015)

Hashirama's willpower, stamina and chakra reserves are just to freakish for him to be put down by  tsukyuomi. 

He withstands(or less likely break) the illusion and makes a comeback afterwards.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

The consensus seems to be that Hashirama has the feats to withstand 72 (or more) straight hours of full-blown torture and still be in fighting condition. 

Interesting.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't think Itachi could ever successfully hold Hashirama in Tsukuyomi with the latter's extremely powerful chakra or masterful control of it. The fact that Madara has never been able to get the best of him even while likely being a superior or at the very least equal genjutsu user to Itachi means Hashirama can without a doubt break out.
> 
> I mean, do people think TBM Naruto can't break out of Tsukuyomi as well? Think of no-limits fallacies here. The most skilled, chakra-control-wise, that Itachi has ever bound in Tsukuyomi is Hebi Sasuke. Naruto was already shitting on Minato in terms of skill whilst battling against Jūbi.
> 
> Tsukuyomi isn't an insta-win, just as Zetsu thought Amatrrasu wasn't an insta-win against Sage Naruto.



Thats purely speculative. 
There is actually no evidence that Madara was a better genjutsu user than Itachi or he possesed a genjutsu of Tsukiyomi's caliber.

I am pretty sure Hashirama could deal with regular genjutsu, otherwise he wouldn't survive against Uchiha that long, but Tsukiyomi is alot different than regular sharingan genjutsu.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The consensus seems to be that Hashirama has the feats to withstand 72 (or more) straight hours of full-blown torture and still be in fighting condition.
> 
> Interesting.



And some crazy people, actually think he can break out of it casually, completely ignoring  how Tsukiyomi works and how breaking it like regular Genjutsu wouldn't work. Basically Itachi downplaying.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> And some crazy people, actually think he can break out of it casually, completely ignoring  how Tsukiyomi works and how breaking it like regular Genjutsu wouldn't work. Basically Itachi downplaying.


Actually the crazy ones are those who think he can't given that BZ thought it not crazy that Hebi Sasuke with his 3-tomoe could do it. Basically Itachi slurping.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Actually the crazy ones are those who think he can't given that BZ thought it not crazy that Hebi Sasuke with his 3-tomoe could do it. Basically Itachi slurping.



Didn't know Hashirama had 3 tomoe sharingan and was a natural born Uchiha.
And Zetsu didn't know shit before the retcon. He didn't even know what Susano'o was. Come on now


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## Kaiser (Jul 1, 2015)

BZ said tsukuyomi causes a break down in the opponent's spirit and i think Hashirama's willpower is great enough to withstand the 72hours of torture and still operate significantly


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Didn't know Hashirama had 3 tomoe sharingan and was a natural born Uchiha.
> 
> And Zetsu didn't know shit before the retcon. He didn't even know what Susano'o was. Come on now


The bias is astounding, it really is.

On one hand you want to dismiss Zetsu's rock and shuriken analogy, which is completely applicable here, but enforce the only-an-Uchiha-can-beat-an-Uchiha shit Itachi was talking about before we know there were God-Tiers, like Hashirama, who tower over individuals like Itachi in just about everything. Take the homer-goggles off man.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Actually the crazy ones are those who think he can't given that BZ thought it not crazy that Hebi Sasuke with his 3-tomoe could do it. Basically Itachi slurping.




You do know the reason why the Sharingan can counter Tsukiyomi has no relation to chakra control right? Besides Itachi straight up went easy on Sasuke so we don't even know if Sasuke's base 3 tomoe Sharingan would even be enough to really break a full power Tsukiyomi. 


Though once again the Sharingan has nothing to do with Chakra control so Breaking out of Tsukiyomi with Sharingan and breaking out of it with Tsukiyomi have NO relation whatsoever. Besides it really doesn't even matter since I don't think Hashirama would be THAT badly effected by Tsukiyomi torture, I just don't think he can fucking walk out of it like your implying he is. 

Also Itachi is my least favorite character in the series take that as you will.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The bias is astounding, it really is.
> 
> On one hand you want to dismiss Zetsu's rock and shuriken analogy, which is completely applicable here, but enforce the only-an-Uchiha-can-beat-an-Uchiha shit Itachi was talking about before we know there were God-Tiers, like Hashirama, who tower over individuals like Itachi in just about everything. Take the homer-goggles off man.



Zetsu's shuriken analogy isn't applicable because Zetsu thought Itachi was genuinely trying to kill Sasuke which was wrong. I have no idea why you even brought that up.

Also I am not enforcing "only an Uchiha can beat Uchiha" shit, because there are non Uchiha characters that can beat Itachi.
In Hashirama's case, it won't happen through tanking Tsukiyomi, though.


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## The Undying (Jul 1, 2015)

I don't think it was ever implied that massive chakra reserves alone are sufficient to break out of something like Tsukuyomi. I can't see Hashirama casually walking away from this, and the fact that he's a far superior combatant to Itachi doesn't really change anything here. He might not collapse like Kakashi did, but he isn't going to be in any condition to keep fighting after withstanding days of torture.

Tsukuyomi wins.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

@GilgameshXFate

Didn't respond to my last rebuttal so I'm not even going to bother.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Zetsu's shuriken analogy isn't applicable because Zetsu thought Itachi was genuinely trying to kill Sasuke which was wrong. I have no idea why you even brought that up.


A statement of fact can be justified whether the conditions apply or not. Again, Zetsu merely believing it possible is enough to justify the statement. That doesn't mean if was true for Sasuke, but on the same token doesn't disqualify it's relevance to other applicable cases. And Hashirama would just happen to be such a case.



> Also I am not enforcing "only an Uchiha can beat Uchiha" shit, because there are non Uchiha characters that can beat Itachi.
> In Hashirama's case, it won't happen through tanking Tsukiyomi, though.


Hashirama dwarfs Itachi in terms of willpower, stamina, chakra, and overall mental capacity so I doubt that highly.


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## Six (Jul 1, 2015)

Why are people saying tsukuyomi only has a 72 hour time limit. Itachi is freely able to control time and space in that dimension, so it could range from 72 hours to 72 days to 72 years. In all likelihood, if you aren't able to break out of tsukuyomi in the minutes after your capture, then you most likely aren't as you get progressively fatigued from the never ending torture.
To make it simple, the long it takes you to break out, the harder it gets.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

Stickastick, how do you quantify "will power" and "mental capacity?"


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## Alex Payne (Jul 1, 2015)

No character _dwarfs_ Itachi in terms of willpower and mental capacity. What is this.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Stickastick, how do you quantify "will power" and "mental capacity?"


What do you mean exactly? I can say that will-power is something like the ability to fight through a situation based on an inner-strength alone. Since Hashirama is the embodiment and most prevalent symbol of the "Will of Fire" this goes without saying. 

Mental capacity is somewhat related to will-power but deals more so with an individual's ability to be-there-own-wo/man, if that makes sense. You know, when someone lacks mental capacity that generally means they lack the ability to make decisions for themselves and without some kind of resolve. Hashirama's embodiment of the Will-of-Fire is one aspect of this but also as well his triumphing in the face of considerable pressure from Madara concerning philosophical matters, not standing down even when it would have meant sacrificing his own life, and ultimately establishing his own village and neutering further generations. Itachi made one incredibly difficult decision and another to sacrifice his life for Sasuke but Hashirama basically did the same things (one being he was prepared to) and some others. 

It's also worth noting that Hashirama is basically a clone of Naruto who has arguably thee greatest will-power and mental capacity in the entire manga.

Good enough?


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

I said quantify, not define, but I guess we got somewhere.

I wanted to know how you reached the conclusion that Itachi was "dwarfed" in these categories by Hashirama.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The bias is astounding, it really is.
> 
> On one hand you want to dismiss Zetsu's rock and shuriken analogy, which is completely applicable here, but enforce the only-an-Uchiha-can-beat-an-Uchiha shit Itachi was talking about before we know there were God-Tiers, like Hashirama, who tower over individuals like Itachi in just about everything. Take the homer-goggles off man.



Both the manga and databook indicate _Sharingan + Uchiha_ is needed.

Hebi Sasuke is both. Hashirama is neither.

It's _not_ biased to follow the guidelines of canon.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I said quantify, not define, but I guess we got somewhere.
> 
> I wanted to know how you reached the conclusion that Itachi was "dwarfed" in these categories by Hashirama.


Quite frankly how the fuck am I'm supposed to quantify these things: they're not tangible. They can however be viewed in a vacuum and then compared to the merits of other individuals. 

But okay Rocky, let's make this super easy. You list the points that each has on their respective resumes in these categories (will-power and mental capacity) and we can go over them and you can tell me how Hashirama's merits aren't significantly more impressive than Itachi's.

@Strat. Post the relevant material and we can go over it. Possibly later. I need a break.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You list the points that each has on their respective resumes in these categories (will-power and mental capacity) and we can go over them and you can tell me how Hashirama's merits aren't significantly more impressive than Itachi's.



You can do that. You clearly have the examples you want me to gather in mind (because you made the assertion).

I don't feel like gathering your evidence for you.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

If Tsukuyomi from other Uchiha didn't work on Hashirama, Itachi's won't do anything.

This includes guys like Madara and other Uchiha more talented than Itachi*.

*Tobirama suggested that more Uchiha were able to take their Amaterasu to the Kagutsuchi level unlike Itachi, who doesn't even have unique Susanoo items.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

No other Uchiha has Itachi's Tsukuyomi. It's unique to him. Without his time-manipulation, it's basically normal genjutsu. (And no ninja is more talented than Itachi. Period.)

Moreover Kagutsuchi wasn't something that was "developed." It was another eye technique entirely, in Sasuke's other eye. Itachi could no more develop it than Obito could develop Amaterasu.​


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

Each Uchiha has different eye powers. Itachi's Tsukuyomi is his and only his.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Each Uchiha has different eye powers. Itachi's Tsukuyomi is his and only his.



We never saw Madara's EMS ocular powers outside Susanoo; Kishi hates repetition with eye powers. That's why we didn't see the same Rinnegan jutsu that Nagato used, re-used so often with Obito and Madara. Same applies to MS.

The only Uchiha who have radically different ocular powers are those who had some form of Hashirama chakra, or cells, upon their (presumed) activation of their MS. Obito, that case is obvious: Zetsu said he'd have totally different powers due to being half Senju. 
Shisui: the chakra colour from Danzo's shoulder (along with the eye and arm) was said to be *exactly* the same colour as Shisui's chakra. We know what's significant about Shisui's shoulder.

Seemingly with no Hashirama chakra influence, all MS seem to have the same jutsu.

Shin, who knows. Though we know he only has that Hiraishin style Kamui type of jutsu and no powers outside that. The seal is a big part of his other jutsu. Now chances are, since he's Orochimaru's experiment we know he obviously know there's some contamination akin to the Hashirama type of influence.



Strategoob said:


> No other Uchiha has Itachi's Tsukuyomi. It's unique to him.



Except when we saw Sasuke use it. Even before that, we had the databook saying it was a jutsu accessible to MS users. Then another databook explicitly states that Tsukuyomi is one of the Doujutsu that need to be mastered for normal MS users to access Susanoo; Sasuke used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu - before he could even use Kagutsuchi - when he unlocked Susanoo prior the Kage Summit.

Tsukuyomi's reputation predates Itachi as per Zetsu's wording.



> And no ninja is more talented than Itachi. Particularly in genjutsu.



More statements the Itachi side can't adequately back up. Genjutsu, ha! All he can do is control people over long distances with normal Genjutsu.

His Tsukuyomi feats are something all Tsukuyomi users can use. It just happens that other, more talented MS users, such as Madara and Sasuke (even the Kagutsuchi users Tobirama cited) had more to offer than simple Genjutsu. 

Well, I suppose Itachi would have to compensate with his appallingly low chakra reserves. Of course, not being able to afford to pump a lot of chakra into Tsukuyomi in-itself implies Itachi's Tsukuyomi is pretty much going to do nothing against Hashirama, whose logically faced worse.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

Post the panel of Sasuke using Tsukuyomi.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Sasuke was specifically put below Itachi for not having time manipulation.

Madara was never indicated to manipulate time either.

i.e. Hashirama's never come across a genjutsu like Itachi's.

And probably expects he could break any Sharingan genjutsu.

Uh-oh. 72+ hours of inhumanly impossible torture incoming.

Databook also calls Tsukuyomi *the* most powerful jutsu. 

Now that we've Shin troll Naruto and Sasuke.

I can see Itachi trolling god tiers.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Post the panel of Sasuke using Tsukuyomi.



You forgot about Sasuke vs Killer B? 



Strategoob said:


> Sasuke was specifically put below Itachi for not having time manipulation.



Normal Sharingan Genjutsu lacks the time manipulation *Tsukuyomi* has.
Danzo just said Tsukuyomi>normal Genjutsu. Nothing about Itachi>Sasuke.



> Madara was never indicated to manipulate time either.



He has Susanoo, meaning alongside Amaterasu he had Tsukuyomi as per the manga and databook.



> i.e. Hashirama's never come across a genjutsu like Itachi's.



Only if we disregard manga and databook facts to force the idea that Itachi is a special snowflake in that regard.



> Databook also calls Tsukuyomi the most powerful jutsu.



That's nice. Arguably you can say Tsukuyomi is the most powerful ocular illusion... arguably. There's still Koto. 

Koto would actually be a threat to Hashirama though.


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## Kai (Jul 1, 2015)

Itachi's fanboy trolled two god tiers.

Itachi himself can troll one top tier.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You forgot about Sasuke vs Killer B?



He puts B in an illusion using the Mangekyou, but _nowhere_ do we see him calling that genjutsu Tsukuyomi.

So again, post the panel.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You can do that. You clearly have the examples you want me to gather in mind (because you made the assertion).
> 
> I don't feel like gathering your evidence for you.


Sorry Rocky no can do. If you want this to be a real debate then you need to put in some of the leg-work, not just ask me what I think, (attempt to) pick apart my points and expect me to continue in this cycle. 

Shit, I've already revealed part of my hand in my last post, so you go ahead and tell me why I'm wrong and I promise you I'll engage and defend my position. However if you expect me to do all the work then it's not happening.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> A statement of fact can be justified whether the conditions apply or not. Again, Zetsu merely believing it possible is enough to justify the statement.


And he was wrong, so what significance does it have ?



> That doesn't mean if was true for Sasuke, but on the same token doesn't disqualify it's relevance to other applicable cases. And Hashirama would just happen to be such a case.


Zetsu being wrong disqualifies it.



> Hashirama dwarfs Itachi in terms of willpower, stamina, chakra, and overall mental capacity so I doubt that highly.



Itachi is a greater Shinobi than Hashirama(by his own admission), and based on their character and behaviors, I don't think Hashirama was above Itachi in terms of willpower or mental capacity.  As Sasuke pointed out, Itachi endured far more.

And chakra capacity has nothing to do with overcoming genjutsu.


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## Hachibi (Jul 1, 2015)

Wait, what willpower feat does Hashi has?

I see it brought up alot but I see no evidence that it is enough for mind-raping

And no, willpower=/=vitality.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He has Susanoo, meaning alongside Amaterasu he had Tsukuyomi as per the manga and databook.



Kakashi rendered this argument invalid, as did Sasuke, as did Shisui.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Databook 3 also said Tobi was Madara. I guess we have to ignore the manga and pretend that is the case.

It isn't like the databook can only explain and expand on information that is given up to that certain point in time of its release or anything


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## Hachibi (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Databook 3 also said Tobi was Madara. I guess we have to ignore the manga and pretend that is the case.
> 
> It isn't like the databook can only explain and expand on information that is given up to that certain point in time of its release or anything



Lightspeed Haku


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Lightspeed Haku



Kamui being attained by hardwork


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## Hachibi (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kamui being attained by hardwork



Invincible Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Invincible Itachi



He still is


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Sorry Rocky no can do. If you want this to be a real debate then you need to put in some of the leg-work, not just ask me what I think, (attempt to) pick apart my points and expect me to continue in this cycle.





I haven't made any claims here. We aren't debating. I didn't pick apart your points (or attempt to). You asserted something and I asked you where the hell it came from. 

You can't even answer, which says alot. Asking others to provide _your _evidence for you isn't going to get you anywhere. Acting like you're "doing all the work" when in actuality you've done *nothing* to support the one claim _you've_ made is rich.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

@Rocky. Whatever dude. You think that.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm just going to take that as an admission that you don't actually have a point to begin with.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 1, 2015)

"Wow Itachi, your genjutsu sure is cool!  Even Madara would be impressed."


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## Kyu (Jul 1, 2015)

What I got from this entire thread is that Hashirama shrugs off Tsuykuyomi because he's Hashirama.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

Kyu said:


> What I got from this entire thread is that Hashirama shrugs off Tsuykuyomi because he's Hashirama.



That's more believable than BM Naruto dodging a floating sword


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He puts B in an illusion using the Mangekyou, but _nowhere_ do we see him calling that genjutsu Tsukuyomi.





Right, so he can use an illusion from the relevant eye, have inverted panels and even hold the relevant eye when the illusion fails (just like Itachi)... but you need a name. 

I guess any time Hiraishin isn't named, but used, it isn't Hiraishin.



Strategoob said:


> Kakashi rendered this argument invalid, as did Sasuke, as did Shisui.



Sasuke didn't. Shisui had some Hashirama chakra influence, as it was implied twice. Obito had half Senju cells, which links to Kakashi's MS... he wasn't a pure Uchiha awakening it.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm just going to take that as an admission that you don't actually have a point to begin with.


I made points in my initial response, to which you ignored and asked why I didn't quantify them instead, as if that mattered. So yeah, you're blatantly wrong there. 

How about this, that post _is _my opening argument and now you can tell me why you disagree and we can continue from there.


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## Rocky (Jul 1, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Right, so he can use an illusion from the relevant eye, have inverted panels and even hold the relevant eye when the illusion fails (just like Itachi)... but you need a name.



You sound as if you're saying that every Mangekyou illusion is Tsukuyomi.


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## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

I think this panel would indicate he doesn't have it, considering his stamina reserves stuff like Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are not even a consideration considering he used final Susanoo and Enton on Zetsu fodder. *[1]*

As for actual thread, Hashirama probably survives but isn't in good shape. Strong physical vitality does little to combat mental damage. A wrestler isn't any less vulnerable emotionally then your average Joe. And we've seen low tiers (Rock Lee) seriously injure top tiers (Edo Madara) before so the notion of a high-top tier doing it is not really that convoluted.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I think this panel would indicate he doesn't have it, considering his stamina reserves stuff like Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are not even a consideration considering he used final Susanoo and Enton on Zetsu fodder. *[1]*


Devil's Advocate: Why is Itachi using Tsukuyomi here and not a generic genjutsu when Sasuke was able to break the hold with a generic Sharingan genjutsu. This is actually pretty strange when you think about it  a reasonable deduction could be that Sasuke's generic genjutsu was on par with Itachi's Tsukuyomi and thus he didn't need to use his own Tsukuyomi, if he possessed it.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 1, 2015)

Its pretty obvious from that panel that Sasuke's sharingan genjutsu is superior to Tsukiyomi.


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## The Undying (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Devil's Advocate: Why is Itachi using Tsukuyomi here and not a generic genjutsu when Sasuke was able to break the hold with a generic Sharingan genjutsu. This is actually pretty strange when you think about it and a reasonable deduction could be that Sasuke's generic genjutsu was on par with Itachi's Tsukuyomi and thus he didn't need to use his own Tsukuyomi, if he possessed it.



Didn't Danzou specifically say that Sasuke's Genjutsu skills were inferior to Itachi's? I don't know why they would suddenly skyrocket in a month or so.


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## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Devil's Advocate: Why is Itachi using Tsukuyomi here and not a generic genjutsu when Sasuke was able to break the hold with a generic Sharingan genjutsu. This is actually pretty strange when you think about it and a reasonable deduction could be that Sasuke's generic genjutsu was on par with Itachi's Tsukuyomi and thus he didn't need to use his own Tsukuyomi, if he possessed it.


If I would hazard a guess it is because he has regenerating stamina and can use his most powerful techniques freely. Would you put more faith in a sniper bullet or a pistol pullet to put someone down? Tsukuyomi was the quickest way to break the genjutsu.

That's not a reasonable deduction whatsoever, it really points towards Sharingan genjutsu being his best at that point in time. He's never shown Tsukuyomi up until that point and never did to the end of the series. Granting it to him is quite frankly just a attempt to downplay but suggesting every MS genjutsu broken was Tsukuyomi.


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Didn't Danzou specifically say that Sasuke's Genjutsu skills were inferior to Itachi's? I don't know why they would suddenly skyrocket in a month or so.


Well, he did obtain EMS for one. 



Ersatz said:


> If I would hazard a guess it is because he has regenerating stamina and can use his most powerful techniques freely. Would you put more faith in a sniper bullet or a pistol pullet to put someone down? Tsukuyomi was the quickest way to break the genjutsu.


This actually doesn't make Itachi look any better, as you're suggesting that Itachi of all people wasn't able to properly and precisely judge the requisite level of genjutsu needed to break Kabuto's hold. That or he was showing off.



> That's not a reasonable deduction whatsoever, it really points towards Sharingan genjutsu being his best at that point in time.


Why would it point towards that? Why would Sasuke go overboard and use a genjutsu that wasn't necessary *if *he did possess Tsukuyomi. The idea that Itachi needed to be sure as to whether he needed to use a bullet coming from a sniper or a pistol doesn't sit well with me as far as an explanation goes. Just my opinion and I don't care to downplay Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

There's an easy explanation. Tsukuyomi _without time manipulation_ is as cheap as normal MS genjutsu. See 13 and 17 year old Itachi using _even 24 hours_ on Sasuke _without any strain_. But when it's _72 hours_ on Kakashi, then he's catching his breath. So _0 hours_ is dirt cheap, comparably speaking. Tsukuyomi is simply the name for given to Itach's unique brand of MS genjutsu.

This sliding scale of chakra input is also likely the reason for Amaterasu disparity. Sasuke barely puts any chakra in his, so they don't burn as fast, as Sasuke relies on the "inextinguishable" aspect. Queue slow-burning clothing. Itachi actually puts a huge chunk of chakra in his Amaterasu, which is why they instantly incinerate fireproof material like the toad stomach or Sasuke's Juin Wing.​


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

As one of the most efficient and precise shinobi could you blame me if I find that explanation a bit lacking.


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## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> This actually doesn't make Itachi look any better, as you're suggesting that Itachi of all people wasn't able to properly and precisely judge the requisite level of genjutsu needed to break Kabuto's hold. That or he was showing off.


Why would he need to precisely judge when he can use his best? To him with Edo stamina there is no difference between casting Sharingan genjutsu or Tsukuyomi. You forget that he thought of the plan in the first place while Sasuke just obeyed his orders.

So you're saying if you had two choices of cutting a rope you'd take the butterknife over the steak knife because it would also suffice? Okay then.



> Why would it point towards that? Why would Sasuke go overboard and use a genjutsu that wasn't necessary *if *he did possess Tsukuyomi. The idea that Itachi needed to be sure as to whether he needed to use a bullet coming from a sniper or a pistol doesn't sit well with me as far as an explanation goes. Just my opinion and I don't care to downplay Itachi.


Because due to their respective stamina and willingness to use their most powerful techniques on fodder (Amaterasu on a crow, Susanoo/Kagusuchi on Zetsu) they've shown they will use their most powerful techniques even if the situation doesn't call for it. Why didn't Itachi kill the crow with a kunai? Why didn't Sasuke dismantle the Zetsu with Chidori senbon?

Sasuke has shown zero evidence of Tsukuyomi. Danzo mocked the illusion he cast on him. What even points towards him having it other then your own opinion?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> As one of the most efficient and precise shinobi could you blame me if I find that explanation a bit lacking.



It was twice established that 24 hours of Tsukuyomi doesn't seem to exhaust Itachi at all. So when he used Tsukuyomi without any time manipulation, as an infinite chakra zombie, what's the problem?​


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## StickaStick (Jul 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Why would he need to precisely judge when he can use his best? To him with Edo stamina there is no difference between casting Sharingan genjutsu or Tsukuyomi. You forget that he thought of the plan in the first place while Sasuke just obeyed his orders.


This is the kind of reasoning I would expect from someone like Madara, not Itachi. Madara would and admitted to fucking around because he was an Edo. That's not however Itachi's personality.



> So you're saying if you had two choices of cutting a rope you'd take the butterknife over the steak knife because it would also suffice? Okay then.


Your questions somehow suggests I'm comparable to Itachi in the relevant matter. I'm not. If I was literally the expert in the field of cutting rope then I probably would know whether to bring a butterknife or a steakknife. Just saying.



> Because due to their respective stamina and willingness to use their most powerful techniques on fodder (Amaterasu on a crow, Susanoo/Kagusuchi on Zetsu) they've shown they will use their most powerful techniques even if the situation doesn't call for it. Why didn't Itachi kill the crow with a kunai? Why didn't Sasuke dismantle the Zetsu with Chidori senbon?


I'm drawing a blank: when as an Edo did he use Ama on a crow. As to Sasuke, this goes both ways as he's shown to not always use his most powerful techniques when it makes sense so I don't know what he's thinking. However, I do know that in this specific instance Sasuke's and Itachi's eyes where in a juxtaposition and it showed one using their strongest genjutsu while the other used a generic one.



> Sasuke has shown zero evidence of Tsukuyomi. Danzo mocked the illusion he cast on him. What even points towards him having it other then your own opinion?


You're getting carried away here. I never said he had it as my original reply indicates. 

And btw, Danzo mocked _MS _Sasuke, not _EMS _Sasuke.



Strategoob said:


> It was twice established that 24 hours of Tsukuyomi doesn't seem to exhaust Itachi at all. So when he used Tsukuyomi without any time manipulation, as an infinite chakra zombie, what's the problem?​


See I'm not arguing that it cost Itachi anything, but that Itachi of all people would know _precisely _what level of genjutsu would be needed here and act appropriately, even if the difference between said generic genjutsu and Tsukuyomi were .01%. The mere thought of using Tsukuyomi as in such a situation if not necessary I would think would be insulting to him.

But eh, whatever. I was just throwing it out there.


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## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> This is the kind of reasoning I would expect from someone like Madara, not Itachi. Madara would and admitted to fucking around because he was an Edo. That's not however Itachi's personality.


Every since he got Edo perks, Itachi has used the MS in a spam-like manner. It's not a matter of personality as he is still calculative but his access to near-unlimited resources.

If anything it would be Itachi to go for the safest option.


> Your questions somehow suggests I'm comparable to Itachi in the relevant matter. I'm not. If I was literally the expert in the field of cutting rope then I probably would know whether to bring a butterknife or a steakknife. Just saying.


But why wouldn't you use the better method? It doesn't cost anything more.



> I'm drawing a blank: when as an Edo did he use Ama on a crow. As to Sasuke, this goes both ways as he's shown to not always use his most powerful techniques when it makes sense so I don't know what he's thinking. However, I do know that in this specific instance Sasuke's and Itachi's eyes where in a juxtaposition and it showed one using their strongest genjutsu while the other used a generic one.


This panel.

If he's willing to use it in a chill environment I'll more then convinced he'd opt for Tsukuyomi in a tense situation. Regardless of whether it's needed or not. Because it costs him nothing to be safer.

Right, it also shows Sasuke didn't use Tsukuyomi.



> You're getting carried away here. I never said he had it as my original reply indicates.


Alright.


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## Bloo (Jul 1, 2015)

There's no way to answer this. Itachi's Tsukuyomi was never used to its capacity, and Hashirama's genjutsu resistance has never been seen (on-panel). The only thing you can reasonably argue with is hype, and by that measurement, Hashirama would shake it off with no problem. Outside of hype, we have no idea.


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## The Undying (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Well, he did obtain EMS for one.



Which is basically just MS without the drawbacks.


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## Bloo (Jul 1, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Devil's Advocate: Why is Itachi using Tsukuyomi here and not a generic genjutsu when Sasuke was able to break the hold with a generic Sharingan genjutsu. This is actually pretty strange when you think about it  a reasonable deduction could be that Sasuke's generic genjutsu was on par with Itachi's Tsukuyomi and thus he didn't need to use his own Tsukuyomi, if he possessed it.


Simple: 

the goal was to break the genjutsu.
Itachi had unlimited chakra.
Now explain to me why Itachi wouldn't play it safe by just using Tsukuyomi? Furthermore, it gives him the benefit of time, since Tsukuyomi would let Itachi deactivate the jutsu faster. There was no reason for Itachi to act conservatively on that front. Your deduction proves nothing.


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## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

I don't see how hype for having unparalleled physical strength and vitality does anything for your mental strength.


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## Bloo (Jul 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I don't see how hype for having unparalleled physical strength and vitality does anything for your mental strength.


I don't either. But this is NarutoForum. Hashirama, by default, wins against anyone other than Kaguya, Sasuke, Naruto, Madara, and maybe Obito.


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## Six (Jul 1, 2015)

People should just stop replying to Munboy


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## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

Munboy is a known troll with a history of creating alternate accounts to flame and start shit up. Of course no one takes him seriously.

He's like a more rebellious Turrin.


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## Six (Jul 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Munboy is a known troll with a history of creating alternate accounts to flame and start shit up. Of course no one takes him seriously.
> 
> He's like a more rebellious Turrin.



Which is why it baffles me that people respond to him and the likes of Elite Uchiha


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## Ersa (Jul 1, 2015)

Elite Uchiha is funny, Munboy is just painful to read.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2015)

Well, really only one of two things can happen:

1. Hashirama is knocked out, like any other scrub without a Doujutsu.

or

2. Hashirama endures it, because he's motherfucking Hashirama and all rules go out the window when he's involved.

My money is on what's behind Door #2.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> There's an easy explanation. Tsukuyomi _without time manipulation_ is as cheap as normal MS genjutsu. See 13 and 17 year old Itachi using _even 24 hours_ on Sasuke _without any strain_. But when it's _72 hours_ on Kakashi, then he's catching his breath. So _0 hours_ is dirt cheap, comparably speaking. Tsukuyomi is simply the name for given to Itach's unique brand of MS genjutsu.
> 
> This sliding scale of chakra input is also likely the reason for Amaterasu disparity. Sasuke barely puts any chakra in his, so they don't burn as fast, as Sasuke relies on the "inextinguishable" aspect. Queue slow-burning clothing. Itachi actually puts a huge chunk of chakra in his Amaterasu, which is why they instantly incinerate fireproof material like the toad stomach or Sasuke's Juin Wing.​



This.

When Itachi used Tsukyiomi on Sasuke the first time in the flashback and later in the hotel, he wasn't phased, even a little.

But when he used it on Kakashi for 72 hours, he was panting, which means it took somewhat of a toll on him. 

Which is understandable given Tsukiyomi's strength comes from its ability that it can compress days worth of experience in an instant. The more you compress, the stronger it is, the more taxing it is.



StickaStick said:


> See I'm not arguing that it cost Itachi anything, but that Itachi of all people would know _precisely _what level of genjutsu would be needed here and act appropriately, even if the difference between said generic genjutsu and Tsukuyomi were .01%. The mere thought of using Tsukuyomi as in such a situation if not necessary I would think would be insulting to him.
> 
> But eh, whatever. I was just throwing it out there.



Or, they both used their strongest genjutsu, like any sane person would deduce from that panel.

Kishimoto already established that Sasuke'S MS genjutsu was nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi.
If he was trying to establish something different, he'd point it out.

But if thats your way of asking the directions for the fanfiction section, I honestly don't know. You have to ask a mod or something.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 2, 2015)

Unless Hashirama's regeneration is instantaneous, I can't comprehend how Hashirama would resist the fatigue that Tsukyomi causes on the individual.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 2, 2015)

If you're asking if Itachi can kill Hashirama with just Tsukuyomi, I don't think so; however, it can leave him vulnerable to some other attack that could possibly kill him.

Hashirama's passive regeneration, powerful chakra and great willpower should be enough to overcome Tsukuyomi. I don't think he'd be in the best shape afterward, though.


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## StickaStick (Jul 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or, they both used their strongest genjutsu, like any sane person would deduce from that panel.
> 
> Kishimoto already established that Sasuke'S MS genjutsu was nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi.
> If he was trying to establish something different, he'd point it out.
> ...


Chill out dude. Why you Itachi-fans get so sensitive when someone merely throws out an alternative way of looking at things is beyond me. Quit being so defensive of your fave and realize that this is forum for honest discussion which means that not everything needs to be taken as gospel and does mean that even the most highly held opinions ought to be challenge if there's at least some basis for it. And yes, Itachi using his strongest genjutsu when one might expect him to know precisely the level of genjutsu needed to break Kabuto's hold and whether a generic genjutsu would suffice is such a point for discussion, whether you vehemently disagree with it or not.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Chill out dude. Why you Itachi-fans get so sensitive when someone merely throws out an alternative way of looking at things is beyond me. Quit being so defensive of your fave and realize that this is forum for honest discussion which means that not everything needs to be taken as gospel and does mean that even the most highly held opinions ought to be challenge if there's at least some basis for it. And yes, Itachi using his strongest genjutsu when one might expect him to know precisely the level of genjutsu needed to break Kabuto's hold and whether a generic genjutsu would suffice is such a point for discussion, whether you vehemently disagree with it or not.



I think you should chill yourself first, before you suggest someone to chill out. It generally works that way, just saying.


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## StickaStick (Jul 2, 2015)

You're the one getting irrationally defensive over your fave on a message board centered around differing opinions and contrary reasoning, not me man.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You're the one getting irrationally defensive over your fave on a message board centered around differing opinions and contrary reasoning, not me man.



I defend what I believe in, isn't that what this board is for like you are suggesting ? 
I don't see anything irrational about that.

And from my point of view, it seems like you've gotten irrationally upset over a post on a message board centered around differing opinions and contrary reasoning. So you should take a chill pill, imo.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 2, 2015)

This is gonna end well I can already feel it


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## The Undying (Jul 2, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> This is gonna end well I can already feel it



Plenty of popcorn to go around.


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## StickaStick (Jul 2, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I defend what I believe in, isn't that what this board is for like you are suggesting ?


Yeah and that's 100% fine.



> I don't see anything irrational about that.
> 
> And from my point of view, it seems like you've gotten irrationally upset over a post on a message board centered around differing opinions and contrary reasoning. So you should take a chill pill, imo.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> But if thats your way of asking the directions for the fanfiction section, I honestly don't know. You have to ask a mod or something.


Hard to claim you aren't upset when this is your response to me having an honest conversation with Strategob and Ersatz on why Kishi portrayed that scene the way he did. They handled it maturely and put forth rational explanations without the childish parting shot at the end that shows a defensive attitude.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 2, 2015)

He'll probably be brought to half his power capacity after tanking a Tsukuyomi. Sadly, half of Hashirama is still a formidable force. 

Hashirama has more chakra than pre-hagoromo Naruto/50% Kyuubi or somewhere around it (comments during War-arc)- he's a Senju and his cells are utilized by rogue ninja as a means of nigh-immortality, miraculous unrivaled stamina, unmatched cellular regeneration and pure power (take Jutsus to the next level- Cheating Koto Cooldown, empowering Zetsu, empowering Edo Tensei, opening the gateway to Mokuton & Izanagi).

He, perhaps more than anyone, is fully equip to suffer and then recover from a Tsukuyomi. 

Like Jinchuriki, he will have no issue surviving the strain from it. He comes out of it, enters SM, and is feeling good within no time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Yeah and that's 100% fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to claim you aren't upset when this is your response to me having an honest conversation with Strategob and Ersatz on why Kishi portrayed that scene the way he did. They handled it maturely and put forth rational explanations without the childish parting shot at the end that shows a defensive attitude.



I said that jokingly, I was just implying that you were a bit over to the side of the fanfiction zone there, nothing more.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 6, 2015)

Itachi wont be able to put Hashirama under a Tsukuyomi in the first place.


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## HeiLong (Jul 6, 2015)

Hashirama is about 6 tiers above Itachi. An ant cant defeat a dinosaur. Hashi overpowers that shit easily like he did with Edo Tensei.


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## Trojan (Jul 6, 2015)

I think itachi's Tsukuyomi does not have enough enough feats to suggest either way. It's feats are only defeating Sasuke when he was 7 years old, and when he was 12/13 years old. In addition to early part 1 Kakashi. 

I don't think that is enough to claim that his Tsukuyomi can defeat every single character.

On the other hand, Hashirama breaking free "because he is Hashirama" type of shit does not fly either. The amount
of chakra is really irrelevant. A with Bijuu-leve chakra was put down by Madara's Genjutsu. Obito was controlling full Kurama (who has AT LEAST twice as much of chakra as Hashirama), and even the Juubi. So, the amount of chakra is irrelevant.

Even more, Hashirama does not have the "Yin" release as shown in the Databook, which has to do with Genjutsu. I don't know how does that work since he did show Genjutsu-feat, but whatever, maybe Kishi forgot about it, or reteconned it. 

either way, he does not really have/shown/hyped/portrayed to have anything against it. 

Finally, Tsukuyomi is obviously not only for itachi. Otherwise, how would madara know about it? 
It existed since Kaguya's time, but in a whole different level of course.


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