# 'Version 2' Killer Bee takes on the powerhouses.



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 23, 2013)

*Location:* The crater of Konoha
*Distance: *40 meters
*Mindset:* Bloodlusted
*Knowledge: *Manga
*Restrictions: *None

He fights the following one-on-one. This is not a gauntlet.

Ay, the Fourth Raikage
Tsunade, the Fifth Hokage
Current Sakura
Jiraiya
Gai
Sage Naruto
Third Raikage


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## RedChidori (Nov 23, 2013)

He pwnz everyone IMHO. Question: Does Tsunade have Katsuyu and Byakogu?


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2013)

Sakura or Tsunade it comes down to if there Byakugo would allow them to tank V2 Lariate and if their punches or mass Katsuya Acid could get through V2 Shroud. Personally I think they could get through the shroud, but it would take awhile and B would have a better chance of busting them in half before they managed to do so, considering his superior speed and the versatility of V2 Shroud. V2 B wins.

Ei has no way to get through the shroud and while he could dodge around w/ his max speed, I think V2 B should be close enough in speed where the extra versatility of B's shroud will allow him to get the drop on Ei. Worst case scenario it becomes a stamina contest which V2 B would win. V2 B wins

Jiraiya's only way to take down V2 B would be Frog Song, however that would require extensive in battle prep and it would reveal his location allow B the chance to take him down before the Song took effect. Most likely on such an open field J-man looses. V2 B wins.

Gai's only hope would be the 8th Gate, so at worst it's a draw, otherwise V2 B tanks Gai's attacks till Gates run their course and than he finishes him off. So win or at worst draw.

Sage Naruto would depend on if FRS (Maybe Chou FRS based on the recent chapter) could bust through V2 Shroud enough to damage B. I'm really not sure on this one since the limits of V2 shroud have never been tested fully. So 50/50 on this.

Sandaime Raikage was able to force a draw w/ the Full Hachibi so I'd assume he wins or draws here, unless V2 B is quick enough to pull out Naruto's strategy of smashing Sandaime's Hell Bringer back into him. But otherwise Sandaime Raikage is really the ideal enemy for taking on something like V2.


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 23, 2013)

V2 B would lose to only SM Naruto and the 3rd Raikage. Chou FRS and Nukite should be able to indubitably get past the v2 shroud, while the 3rd Raikage can tank anything B throws at him and Naruto avoids and counter attacks via his Sage Sensing and enhanced reflexes.


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## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

Ay, the Fourth Raikage -* Bee wins*, he's probably on the same level of speed as V1 ei maybe a little faster, has the durability in this form to take lots of hits and has much more power than his brother.
Tsunade, the Fifth Hokage - *I'd favor bee*.  They probably have very similar power, Bee has way more durability but tsunade makes up for it with her regen, however Bee is much faster and I'd see him landing more hits on her than he on she.  Though the variables are so uncertain that 50/50 would be a safer bet.  Katsuya really isn't doing anything against Bee.

Current Sakura - *The weaker she is comparative to tsunade is the worse she fairs, so i'd favor bee unless she is tsunade's equal*
Jiraiya - *If he can get into SM Jiraiya wins* SM Chou oodama rasengan is most likely more powerful than the V2 lariat, if the techniques clash, bee is the one who is getting hit.  Jiraiya isn't totally outclassed in the speed department and has things like dust cloud which really messes bee up since he can't sense.

Gai - *His only chance is hitting Bee with AT, i'd say 50/50*  If it's the AT that destroyed madara's susanoo instead of the one that kisame survived, he will win if it hits.  If not, there's really nothing he can do to bee.  Physically, Bee is comparable in speed to gated Gai, and just over the top far more powerful in strength, durability and the length of time he can hold his form.

Sage Naruto - *SM Naruto wins.*  If Bee is faster than Sandaime raikage, it isn't by much and he sure isn't more durable than the guy.  Naruto clashes FRS with lariat, bee dies same as a chou oodama rasengan except bee might survive it.

Third Raikage - *Third wins*.  1 Finger nukite >>> lariat if both clash bee is going to die.  Sandaime can take bee's hits bee can't take his.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Ay, the Fourth Raikage -* Bee wins*, he's probably on the same level of speed as V1 ei maybe a little faster, has the durability in this form to take lots of hits and has much more power than his brother.



Version 1 Killer Bee was already equal to V1 Ei in terms of sheer speed and power.

Given the exponential increase in chakra that Version 2 grants, I'd be comfortable in saying Bee's physical attributes are accordingly far superior to that of V1 Ei.



> Jiraiya - *If he can get into SM Jiraiya wins* SM Chou oodama rasengan is most likely more powerful than the V2 lariat, if the techniques clash, bee is the one who is getting hit.  Jiraiya isn't totally outclassed in the speed department and has things like dust cloud which really messes bee up since he can't sense.



Can a single Sage Art: Massive Rasengan really defeat in Bee in one go? 

I also doubt Bee would be foolish enough in physically clashing with such a large, dense mass of chakra head-on, without realizing the risks of doing so. He'd likely just evade it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Version 1 Killer Bee was already equal to V1 Ei in terms of sheer speed and power.
> 
> Given the exponential increase in chakra that Version 2 grants, I'd be comfortable in saying Bee's physical attributes are accordingly far superior to that of V1 Ei.


Don't know about speed, but Base Bee sheer strength and power already trumps full power, V1 A.




> Can a single Sage Art: Massive Rasengan really defeat in Bee in one go?
> 
> I also doubt Bee would be foolish enough in physically clashing with such a large, dense mass of chakra head-on, without realizing the risks of doing so. He'd likely just evade it.


Well what is V2 Bee's greatest defensive feat? Cho Odama Rasengan is high town level in terms of power (439 kilotons).


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## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Version 1 Killer Bee was already equal to V1 Ei in terms of sheer speed and power.
> 
> Given the exponential increase in chakra that Version 2 grants, I'd be comfortable in saying Bee's physical attributes are accordingly far superior to that of V1 Ei.


double lariat never required equal speed it was only stated to require equal power, in addition to that bee started much closer to kisame than ei did.

If they are the same speed and power in V1, then unless you argue that V2 Bee has the same speed as V2 Ei's, Bee's hits in V2 are even weaker than max speed ei's.  And that's not something I got from the manga, in fact, i think that *V1 bee's hits* are *comparable in power to V2 Ei's hits.* at least when bee forms the bull horns.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Can a single Sage Art: Massive Rasengan really defeat in Bee in one go?
> 
> I also doubt Bee would be foolish enough in physically clashing with such a large, dense mass of chakra head-on, without realizing the risks of doing so. He'd likely just evade it.


What durability feat does the V2 cloak have that allows it to block a SM COR?  Kakashi was able to peel off Han's V2 cloak with raikiri, Sandaime raikage's arm was slightly cracked from a normal SM rasengan.  Bee's cloak doesn't seem more durable than the other V2 jinks nor is his overall defenses greater than Sandaime raikages.

And if bee charges at jiraiya in the air like he did to sasuke, he can't dodge the COR, he also doesn't really have any other choice of offense other than lariat in those forms, and finally, jiraiya has means of landing the hit on him like swamp of the underworld, kagebunshin and dust cloud.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> double lariat never required equal speed it was only stated to require equal power, in addition to that bee started much closer to kisame than ei did.
> 
> If they are the same speed and power in V1, then unless you argue that V2 Bee has the same speed as V2 Ei's, *Bee's hits in V2 are even weaker than max speed ei's*.



Wait, what? Why is it necessary that I argue that Version 2 Bee's hits are weaker than maximum-speed Ei's if my initial premise is that the speed and power of Version 1 Bee are equal to that of initial-speed Ei?

The way Bee's chakra cloak enhances himself and the way that the Lightning Shroud amplify Ei could be entirely different. The Lightning Shroud appears to enhance Ei's speed, mostly - power, for Bee. Version Two Bee could just as well be far physically stronger (ergo, with much more power in his hits), yet slower than V2 Ei. They don't have to be proportionally scaled from V1 or Version One Chakra Cloak.




> And that's not something I got from the manga, in fact, i think that *V1 bee's hits* are *comparable in power to V2 Ei's hits.* at least when bee forms the bull horns.



Visually, yes, but we've seen it explicitly stated that for a perfect Lariat to be achieved, power must be balanced and equal between the two users. Thereby, it's indubitable that V1 Ei = Version One Bee.



> What durability feat does the V2 cloak have that allows it to block a SM COR?  Kakashi was able to peel off Han's V2 cloak with raikiri, Sandaime raikage's arm was slightly cracked from a normal SM rasengan.  Bee's cloak doesn't seem more durable than the other V2 jinks nor is his overall defenses greater than Sandaime raikages


.

When did that happen?



> *And if bee charges at jiraiya in the air like he did to sasuke, *he can't dodge the COR, he also doesn't really have any other choice of offense other than lariat in those forms, and finally, jiraiya has means of landing the hit on him like swamp of the underworld, kagebunshin and dust cloud.



They're on a flat battlefield. Jumping from the air is by all means unlikely here.

Swamp of the Underworld ain't got no feats to support trapping someone as strong as Version Two Killer Bee, though.


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## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Wait, what? Why is it necessary that I argue that Version 2 Bee's hits are weaker than maximum-speed Ei's if my initial premise is that the speed and power of Version 1 Bee are equal to that of initial-speed Ei?
> 
> The way Bee's chakra cloak enhances himself and the way that the Lightning Shroud amplify Ei could be entirely different. The Lightning Shroud appears to enhance Ei's speed, mostly - power, for Bee. Version Two Bee could just as well be far physically stronger (ergo, with much more power in his hits), yet slower than V2 Ei. They don't have to be proportionally scaled from V1 or Version One Chakra Cloak.


If the chakra cloak enhances the speed more than power, then that means base bee is significantly faster, but at the same time weaker than base Ei since they break even when Ei's speed is increased more than bees and when bee's power is increased more than Ei's.




ATastyMuffin said:


> Visually, yes, but we've seen it explicitly stated that for a perfect Lariat to be achieved, power must be balanced and equal between the two users. Thereby, it's indubitable that V1 Ei = Version One Bee.


Which is why I said 'at least when the bull's horns form' when comparing V1 bee to V2 ei's striking strength.

.


ATastyMuffin said:


> When did that happen?


 You can see the cloak peeled to the left exposing *the flaps of han's armor that line his waist.*

rasengan causes some minor cracks on sandaime's arm:





ATastyMuffin said:


> They're on a flat battlefield. Jumping from the air is by all means unlikely here.
> 
> Swamp of the Underworld ain't got no feats to support trapping someone as strong as Version Two Killer Bee, though.


True about the battlefield.  Swamp of the Underworld doesn't have to trap him, just limit his mobility or inhibit him which makes it easier to land a hit on him.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Ay, the Fourth Raikage



The Raikage wins. The difference in speed and acceleration is such that he can comfortably take shots at V2 B all day. The hard part will be putting him down, but it's only a matter of dealing enough damage over time.



> Tsunade, the Fifth Hokage



At this distance, Tsunade has time to activate Byakugou and summon Katsuyu. Then V2 B blitzes and rips her in half.



> Current Sakura



Sakura also has time to summon Katsuyu and release her Infuin. But she too gets ripped in half.



> Jiraiya



Gets ripped in half.



> Gai



With the 7th Gate, he's got the speed to evade B's V2. He can beat B down for a while, but he can't get past the chakra cloak before the Gates exhaust him. Gai's only chance at victory would be the 8th Gate, which we've yet to see (and would supposedly result in his death).



> Sage Naruto



Gets ripped in half.



> Third Raikage



Catches B's Lariat and runs him through with Nukite.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Nov 23, 2013)

Guy could potentially win with 8th gate hype, SM Naruto wins low-mid diff, 3rd Raikage wins low-mid diff. 


Rest get fodderized pretty quickly.

Edit: Forgot JMan was in line, he also wins very handily.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The Raikage wins. The difference in speed and acceleration is such that he can comfortably take shots at V2 B all day. The hard part will be putting him down, but it's only a matter of dealing enough damage over time.


Given how a fucking full powered A couldn't even _dent_ a base Killer Bee means he won't be putting Bee down. V2 Bee shrugs off A's attacks, should have enough chakra to keep up and in the end, instead of merely having the wind knocked out of him in a base lariat, a V2 Bee Lariat would blow A's torso apart.




> At this distance, Tsunade has time to activate Byakugou and summon Katsuyu. Then V2 B blitzes and rips her in half.


And Katsuyu puts Tsunade back together and she smashes Bee in the jaw with enough power to damage a Complete Susano'o from Madara and lays into him. 




> Sakura also has time to summon Katsuyu and release her Infuin. But she too gets ripped in half.


Sakura like Tsunade only needs a few hits to win, if not fewer. While with Sozo Sasei Sakura can heal from Bee's attacks and Katsuyu can shield her. Could honestly go either way.




> Gets ripped in half.


Not even. Jiraiya is comfortably on a higher level unless Bee is fully transformed. Jiraiya is durable enough to tank most of Bee's attacks in V2 (given he flat out tanked the force of thousands of tons hitting him through steel and concrete without damage), and if in Sage Mode Jiraiya really isn't getting hurt due to the massive durability increase. Jiraiya's ninjutsu however would be powered enough to make Killer Bee hurt. Senjutsu Rasengans which can damage fucking Jyubi Obito, Cho Odama Rasengan which can wipe out large towns if exploded, Killer Bee is solidly outclassed.




> With the 7th Gate, he's got the speed to evade B's V2. He can beat B down for a while, but he can't get past the chakra cloak before the Gates exhaust him. Gai's only chance at victory would be the 8th Gate, which we've yet to see (and would supposedly result in his death).


Since when does the Seventh Gate give him the speed to keep up with V2 Bee? And given Daytime Tiger couldn't even _knock Kisame unconscious_, I don't see how Bee, being shielded in his V2 Cloak would be put down. 




> Gets ripped in half.


What is it with your general downplay of Sage Mode users like Naruto and Jiraiya in general, Nikushimi? You gave your favorites on this topic not only the benefit of the doubt but ignored (most notably A) that they are either solidly outclassed by BASE Bee or in the case of Gai actually act he can last longer than a Sannin or a Sage Mode user. Sage Mode Naruto wins _handily_, and could even defeat Gyuki in one on one combat from his feats against Kurama. Naruto's Sage Mode sensing is enough to dodge Bee's attacks, and if he IS hit he has the durability to tank Bee's attacks. Not only that, with clones he can throw Bee off and then land a Cho Odama Rasengan or blitz him with a Futon: Rasenshuriken.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given how a fucking full powered A couldn't even _dent_ a base Killer Bee means he won't be putting Bee down.



A was not trying to kill B, so that wasn't his full power.

A at full power, with his right (non-dominant) arm, matched V1 8-tailed B for the Double Lariat, which *requires* both users to attack at equal power.



> V2 Bee shrugs off A's attacks, should have enough chakra to keep up and in the end, instead of merely having the wind knocked out of him in a base lariat, a V2 Bee Lariat would blow A's torso apart.



V2 B has no chance of hitting the Raikage. The Raikage can dodge Sasuke's _eyes_.



> And Katsuyu puts Tsunade back together and she smashes Bee in the jaw with enough power to damage a Complete Susano'o from Madara and lays into him.



Once Tsunade is split in half by the initial V2 Lariat, B can prevent her from being repaired; he can simply grab Tsunade's lower half and run off with it. Good luck catching up to him when your only means of transportation is a giant _slug_.



> Sakura like Tsunade only needs a few hits to win, if not fewer. While with Sozo Sasei Sakura can heal from Bee's attacks and Katsuyu can shield her. Could honestly go either way.



No, B splits her like a log and throws her halves kilometers apart just to be a dick.



> Not even. Jiraiya is comfortably on a higher level unless Bee is fully transformed. Jiraiya is durable enough to tank most of Bee's attacks in V2 (given he flat out tanked the force of thousands of tons hitting him through steel and concrete without damage), and if in Sage Mode Jiraiya really isn't getting hurt due to the massive durability increase.



Meaningless. Even in Sage Mode, Jiraiya is ripped in half; Kisame lost his chest despite guarding with Samehada, and he was able to remain intact after Hirudora- a far better durability feat than J-man getting rammed by Pain's summon.



> Jiraiya's ninjutsu however would be powered enough to make Killer Bee hurt.



Too bad V2 Lariat will cut right through everything Jiraiya has.



> Senjutsu Rasengans which can damage fucking Jyubi Obito,



That's because Senjutsu is the only thing capable of damaging Obito; it's unclear if he has a special weakness to it or if other attacks are just rendered ineffective magically, but we know Senjutsu is a special case either way.



> Cho Odama Rasengan which can wipe out large towns if exploded, Killer Bee is solidly outclassed.



Chou Oodama Rasengan never wiped out any large towns; even FRS isn't on that scale.

Lariat is vastly more powerful than Hirudora, which actually is on that scale.



> Since when does the Seventh Gate give him the speed to keep up with V2 Bee?



Gai with less than the 6th Gate was fighting Obito's V2 Jinchuuriki Pain- alongside Kakashi, with apparently no Gates. Gai with the 6th Gate and above is faster than any V2 form, although this should've been stupidly obvious already given that his limbs catch on fire.



> And given Daytime Tiger couldn't even _knock Kisame unconscious_, I don't see how Bee, being shielded in his V2 Cloak would be put down.



Wow, you're actually capable of being right. I agree; that's why I said Gai *can't* put B down. The 8th Gate is his only hope, but we have no feats for it and it kills him anyway.



> What is it with your general downplay of Sage Mode users like Naruto and Jiraiya in general, Nikushimi? You gave your favorites on this topic not only the benefit of the doubt



I'm not downplaying them. V2 B's Lariat is insanely powerful; it pierced Samehada, blew off Kisame's chest, and sent him flying. Kisame is physically comparable to a Sage Mode user (excluding speed), and I say that despite the fact that withstanding Hirudora is a much better durability feat than anything an SM user has shown. You want to talk "benefit of the doubt"? I just gave it to SM users, because I still think their durability is on par with Kisame's even though his feats are better.



> but ignored (most notably A) that they are either solidly outclassed by BASE Bee



You say this because base B beat A in a Lariat clash one time, even though A beat him once and matched him once. A also casually pushed aside B when he went for the killing-blow on Naruto. So you're mistaken about that.

The Raikage's strength is comparable to V1 B's. His speed exceeds even V2 B's by a wide margin, and that's why he wins.



> or in the case of Gai actually act he can last longer than a Sannin or a Sage Mode user.



Gai has the speed to run circles around V2 B, that's why.

Look, I'll concede this much: SM Naruto and SM Jiraiya CAN fight B for a while, but I don't think it makes a difference; in the end, he is going to tag them with Lariat at some point and it's going to go right through whatever they throw at him. Because of the size and the way it's held, Naruto can't just push it through B's chest with a Rasengan like he did to the 3rd Raikage's Nukite, either.



> Sage Mode Naruto wins _handily_, and could even defeat Gyuki in one on one combat from his feats against Kurama.



The Hachibi would very easily wipe SM Naruto out with Bijuudama in his general direction. Sage Naruto doesn't have the firepower to take down a Bijuu, either; he would only injure it. The 3rd Raikage's Nukite is better than anything in Naruto's arsenal, and that was the best he could do.

V2 B just needs to hit him with Lariat eventually, even if it takes several attempts to land it.



> Naruto's Sage Mode sensing is enough to dodge Bee's attacks, and if he IS hit he has the durability to tank Bee's attacks.



Sage Naruto is not tanking a V2 Lariat; he's going to learn that Kage Bunshin isn't the only way a person can split.



> Not only that, with clones he can throw Bee off and then land a Cho Odama Rasengan or blitz him with a Futon: Rasenshuriken.



Lariat blows through all of that. Hell, Hirudora blows through all of that.


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## Rocky (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Once Tsunade is split in half by the initial V2 Lariat, B can prevent her from being repaired; he can simply grab Tsunade's lower half and run off with it.




No lie this visual had me rollin'.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No lie this visual had me rollin'.



I was going to add something about him taking the lower half into the bushes for a little quality time, but I felt that was too much.


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## Bonly (Nov 23, 2013)

I only see B losing to the last three with it being a 50/50 shot against Gai.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> If the *chakra cloak* enhances the speed more than power,



You mean the Lightning Shroud. That's what I said.



> then that means base bee is significantly faster, but at the same time weaker than base Ei since they break even when Ei's speed is increased more than bees and when bee's power is increased more than Ei's.



And is any of this supposed to be contradictory? For all we know, it could be true. 



> Which is why I said 'at least when the bull's horns form' when comparing V1 bee to V2 ei's striking strength.



Ah, yes, now I see what you mean. 

*the same size as the hachibi's crater.*

This is a much different Version One Bee than 

*the same size as the hachibi's crater.*

And presumably stronger, given the formation of that shroud.
.


> You can see the cloak peeled to the left exposing *the flaps of han's armor that line his waist.*



What? I do not, at all, see where Version Two Han's skin is 'peeling'.



> rasengan causes some minor cracks on sandaime's arm:



Don't all Edo Tensei have natural cracks? 



> True about the battlefield.  Swamp of the Underworld doesn't have to trap him, just limit his mobility or inhibit him which makes it easier to land a hit on him.



Some food for thought. 

If Swamp of the Underworld completely rendered immobile Human Realm, who is >= Sage Jiraiya in strength, the latter of which has enough strength to kick the former hard enough to punch a cave in a boulder (which is superior to this feat by V1 Ei) even with prior skidding force slowing the launch, it's possible that the Swamp might cause Version Two Killer Bee some problems. But Killer Bee in that form, is, after all >>> V1 Ei in pure strength, so I'm still quite confident that he can rip out of the Swamp quite easily before Jiraiya gets to him.


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## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> You mean the Lightning Shroud. That's what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wondering whether you agreed with me or disagreed.

and really man, you're gunna pull the "for all we know" phrase?  That can be used to argue pretty much any assertion in the manga.
.



ATastyMuffin said:


> What? I do not, at all, see where Version Two Han's skin is 'peeling'.


Does the V2 chakra cloak completely cover the user?  
What color is the V2 chakra cloak?
Why isn't part of Han's clothing covered by the V2 chakra cloak, coincidentally i might add where kakashi just struck the cloak with Raikiri?




ATastyMuffin said:


> Don't all Edo Tensei have natural cracks?


they sure do, they just usually don't have those natural cracks coincidentally radiating from the point of contact of an attack.




ATastyMuffin said:


> Some food for thought.
> 
> If Swamp of the Underworld completely rendered immobile Human Realm, who is >= Sage Jiraiya in strength, the latter of which has enough strength to kick the former hard enough to punch a cave in a boulder (which is superior to this feat by V1 Ei) even with prior skidding force slowing the launch, it's possible that the Swamp might cause Version Two Killer Bee some problems. But Killer Bee in that form, is, after all >>> V1 Ei in pure strength, so I'm still quite confident that he can rip out of the Swamp quite easily before Jiraiya gets to him.


mind fed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> A was not trying to kill B, so that wasn't his full power.
> 
> A at full power, with his right (non-dominant) arm, matched V1 8-tailed B for the Double Lariat, which *requires* both users to attack at equal power.


A went into his V2 Cloak, that IS his full power. He gave Bee a challenge and Bee not only met it, but exceeded A's expectations.

The manga flat out says Bee's been _lowering his attack power_ to equal A's.


> V2 B has no chance of hitting the Raikage. The Raikage can dodge Sasuke's _eyes_.


A's fast, without a doubt. But the second he goes into an attack Bee is not only fast enough to counter, but tank it and deliver it back ten fold. Bee can tank everything A dishes out and deliver it back without any trouble.




> Once Tsunade is split in half by the initial V2 Lariat, B can prevent her from being repaired; he can simply grab Tsunade's lower half and run off with it. Good luck catching up to him when your only means of transportation is a giant _slug_.


Given said slug is capable of great speeds, splitting into smaller halfs, shooting acid? And Tsunade could still just PUNCH him to let go...you really like making scenarios where your favorite does something out of the ordinary don't you?




> No, B splits her like a log and throws her halves kilometers apart just to be a dick.


Which he has the feats for? Oh wait he doesn't.




> Meaningless. Even in Sage Mode, Jiraiya is ripped in half; Kisame lost his chest despite guarding with Samehada, and he was able to remain intact after Hirudora- a far better durability feat than J-man getting rammed by Pain's summon.


Jiraiya can comfortably tank it. His durability exceeds Kisame's. Kisame, barely conscious after Hirudora isn't the same as what Jiraiya did. You love downplaying Jiraiya, Naruto, Kurama, and wanking Kisame, Itachi, A, Bee, and Gai that your judgement is out of place. Jiraiya could tank being kicked by Gai, being punched by Tsunade, survive and defeat KN4 Naruto, survive in base being plowed through metal and steel by a battering ram weighing thousands of tons. You downplay since hey, you consider Jiraiya 'chunin level' and you love wanking your favorites.




> Too bad V2 Lariat will cut right through everything Jiraiya has.


Jiraiya tanking thousands of tons of force sending him through steel and an entire building in a gigantic trench which dwarfs any Lariat from Bee. He couldn't even knock Kisame through a fucking TREE with a V2 Lariat.




> That's because Senjutsu is the only thing capable of damaging Obito; it's unclear if he has a special weakness to it or if other attacks are just rendered ineffective magically, but we know Senjutsu is a special case either way.


Senjutsu merely can't be wiped out by the Yin-Yang weapons Obito uses. His body though is still damaged by it.




> Chou Oodama Rasengan never wiped out any large towns; even FRS isn't on that scale.


Cho Odama Rasengan can hollow out mountains, canonically. That translates to destroying large towns _if it explodes_. And the FRS, which is 53 megatons of power can't do it? FRS's explosion took up half the Chibaku Tensei crater which is as large as a mountain range as we can see here.


> Lariat is vastly more powerful than Hirudora, which actually is on that scale.


Or that Hirudora, which barely chipped the rocks around Turtle Island, isn't as powerful as you claim despite all its flash?




> Gai with less than the 6th Gate was fighting Obito's V2 Jinchuuriki Pain- alongside Kakashi, with apparently no Gates. Gai with the 6th Gate and above is faster than any V2 form, although this should've been stupidly obvious already given that his limbs catch on fire.


Gai was in the Sixth Gate given he immediately could launch Asakujuku against Saiken's acid mist. And if he was so much faster than any V2 form, why was he knocked away like a bitch? Shouldn't he have just dodged it according to your logic?



> I'm not downplaying them. V2 B's Lariat is insanely powerful; it pierced Samehada, blew off Kisame's chest, and sent him flying. Kisame is physically comparable to a Sage Mode user (excluding speed), and I say that despite the fact that withstanding Hirudora is a much better durability feat than anything an SM user has shown. You want to talk "benefit of the doubt"? I just gave it to SM users, because I still think their durability is on par with Kisame's even though his feats are better.


Kisame has no feats whatsoever equalling a Sage Mode user. He has no feats of sending boss summons into the sky. He has no feats of tanking a fucking stomp from Kurama and living to tell the tell (Kurama being strong enough to claw himself out of Chibaku Tensei puts everything Kisame's done to shame). V2 Lariat couldn't even knock Kisame through a tree. Hirudora couldn't even knock him out. Yet Sage Mode Naruto, who can tank _Kurama's massive physical strength_ or Base Jiraiya, who can survive Gai's strength, Tsunade's strength, and the fucking boss ram with thousands of tons of force behind it slamming him _through steel and concrete and creating massive, deep trench that you couldn't see the bottom of_ is on the same level of Kisame? 




> You say this because base B beat A in a Lariat clash one time, even though A beat him one and matched him once. A also casually pushed aside B when he went for the killing-blow on Naruto. So you're mistaken about that.
> 
> The Raikage's strength is comparable to V1 B's. His speed exceeds even V2 B's by a wide margin, and that's why he wins.


Bee thought he got through to A which is why he didn't expect that punch. And not only that, A explicitly went all out against Bee in that lariat clash and Bee STILL overpowered him. The manga made it clear Bee was lowering his strength down to A's level, not the other way around. 




> Gai has the speed to run circles around V2 B, that's why.


Which is why he could here huh?


> Look, I'll concede this much: SM Naruto and SM Jiraiya CAN fight B for a while, but I don't think it makes a difference; in the end, he is going to tag them with Lariat at some point and it's going to go right through whatever they throw at him. Because of the size and the way it's held, Naruto can't just push it through B's chest with a Rasengan like he did to the 3rd Raikage's Nukite, either.


Or they could just tank it given they've tanked things with more force than what Bee can dish out from feats. And if they meet a Lariat with a Odama or Cho Odama Rasengan, or in Naruto's case a Rasenshuriken, they're going to plow through the ox skull that Bee wields.




> The Hachibi would very easily wipe SM Naruto out with Bijuudama in his general direction.


Not really. Sage Mode Naruto can dodge the Bijudama through sensing it and avoiding it. He can also get in close, grab Gyuki by the tall and power slam him down like he did Kurama. Then he can aim a Rasenshuriken to Gyuki's chest. Despite tanking his own Bijudama, the Rasenshuriken deals two different damage which Gyuki is still susceptible too.


> V2 B just needs to hit him with Lariat eventually, even if it takes several attempts to land it.


And even if a V2 Lariat hits, Naruto's tanked far worse in Sage Mode.




> Sage Naruto is not tanking a V2 Lariat; he's going to learn that Kage Bunshin isn't the only way a person can split.


Naruto, via a clone, could tank Chibaku Tensei clawing out force from Kurama, something far higher than what a V2 Lariat can dish out. And Killer Bee is susceptible to a clone feint.




> Lariat blows through all of that. Hell, Hirudora blows through all of that.


No, it really doesn't. Senpo: Odama Rasengan has enough force to send Biju sized summons into the stratosphere. Futon: Rasenshuriken plows both attacks apart. Cho Odama Rasengan plows it apart. Sorry, you're wrong Niku.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

SSM12 Nagato's fucking ram is not stronger than v2 Bee. 

Bee, even in v1, is one of the most physically powerful Shinobi to exist. Nagato's bull is not.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> SSM12 Nagato's fucking ram is not stronger than v2 Bee.
> 
> Bee, even in v1, is one of the most physically powerful Shinobi to exist. Nagato's bull is not.


Dude, a boss ram has literally thousands to tens of thousands of tons of force behind it in a charge. Its like being hit by a battleship, yet Jiraiya took it without any damage.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, a boss ram has literally thousands to tens of thousands of tons of force behind it in a charge. Its like being hit by a battleship, yet Jiraiya took it without any damage.



A battleship? lol No.  Just no.

I am curious though. Where are you drawing your info from?


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## Jad (Nov 24, 2013)

Why are people still saying Gai can only launch one Hirudora? Was he not beaten, tired and out of juice when he used one against Madara and still did not drop from consciousness immediately? Does that not tell you how much Hirudora takes out of him? I say he can do a few.​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> A battleship? lol No.  Just no.
> 
> I am curious though. Where are you drawing your info from?


Boss summons have an extreme amount of mass and weight, Rocky. Gamabunta, whose the same size as the boss ram was estimated to weigh above 6000 tons. 

And I'm not referring to a battleship like the Iowa-class, I'm talking about pre-Dreadnought class ships that ranged from 4000-6000 tons.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Boss summons have an extreme amount of mass and weight, Rocky. Gamabunta, whose the same size as the boss ram was estimated to weigh above 6000 tons.
> 
> And I'm not referring to a battleship like the Iowa-class, I'm talking about pre-Dreadnought class ships that ranged from 4000-6000 tons.




Specify next time; current battleships are like 90 million pounds and such force would ruin Jiraiya's life.

That said, since you're using the OBD, I'll use it. Gai's Mourning Peacock, the weaker of his two attacks, was calculated at Town Level....

So since Hirodura is stronger than Asa Kujaku, and Nagato's Ram is stronger than Hirodura, then Nagato's fucking Ram is Town Level.  Furthermore, Base Jiraiya has Town+ Durability. Guess Base Jiraiya really can take Kisame & Itachi! 




.....please, have some sense.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Specify next time; current battleships are like 90 million pounds and such force would ruin Jiraiya's life.
> 
> That said, since you're using the OBD, I'll use it. Gai's Mourning Peacock, the weaker of his two attacks, was calculated at Town Level....
> 
> ...


Dude, come on. And we don't have any 'current battleships', all battleships have been retired ever since 2006. 

And why shouldn't Nagato's ram be that strong dude? He's basically summoning Kaiju which weigh thousands upon thousands of tons.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, come on. And we don't have any 'current battleships', all battleships have been retired ever since 2006.
> 
> And why shouldn't Nagato's ram be that strong dude? He's basically summoning Kaiju which weigh thousands upon thousands of tons.




Whatever. Modern maybe was the better word, but you have shit like the USS Missouri which is a good 40,000 tons, meaning millions of pounds. Good Bye Jiraiya.

And why shouldn't Nagato's ram be town level? You shitting me? Does its headbutt _look_ like an attack capable of leveling a town? Do you _*honestly*_ think Base Jiraiya has "Town-Level" (you know, _Rasenshuriken_ level) durability?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Whatever. Modern maybe was the better word, but you have shit like the USS Missouri which is a good 40,000 tons, meaning millions of pounds. Good Bye Jiraiya.
> 
> And why shouldn't Nagato's ram be town level? You shitting me? Does its headbutt _look_ like an attack capable of leveling a town? Do you _*honestly*_ think Base Jiraiya has "Town-Level" (you know, _Rasenshuriken_ level) durability?


Rasenshuriken is _city_ level at 53 megatons, Rocky. And look at all the mass and weight thrown around by creatures 91-100+ meters in size. How come they wouldn't have that much force behind it Rocky?


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

I must've missed FRS's recalculation then, but whatever.

Now answer my question. Did that charge look like an attack capable of leveling a town?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I must've missed FRS's recalculation then, but whatever.
> 
> Now answer my question. Did that charge look like an attack capable of leveling a town?


Not outright. Lets take Godzilla for an example, Rocky. First incarnation was 50 meters tall and 100 meters long: weighing up to 20,000 tons. Basically he would have 20 kilotons of power if he just fell from the sky and impacted like a meteorite. But merely moving around doesn't cause that damage. Now lets take the size and mass of the boss Ram here: Around 49 meters tall and 91 meters long, it should weigh 6000 tons or as much as Gamabunta was calculated due to his sheer size. Merely moving around doesn't cause the destruction but its focused right on the charge. 6000+ tons of force behind it plowing right at Jiraiya, how much power should be behind that?


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

You lost me. Why are we discussing Godzilla impacting the earth at terminal velocity? I don't think Godzilla's punch is 20 kilotons, nor do I think the Ram's headbutt is 6. The Ram didn't fall from space and fucking body slam Jiraiya at hypersonic speeds...it just ran into him. The yield of that headbutt clearly wasn't town level.


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## Gibbs (Nov 24, 2013)

Sage Naruto's FRS Severely damages Killer Bee to the point where his chakra network is shattered. See what it did vs Kakuzu, and vs Human Path of Pain.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You lost me. Why are we discussing Godzilla impacting the earth at terminal velocity? I don't think Godzilla's punch is 20 kilotons, nor do I think the Ram's headbutt is 6. The Ram didn't fall from space and fucking body slam Jiraiya at hypersonic speeds...it just ran into him. The yield of that headbutt clearly wasn't town level.


You do know that Naruto characters and creatures have been hypersonic+ for a LONG while right? The Ram, moving lets say Mach 32 hitting Jiraiya dead on with all of its weight behind it would be how strong?


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

I want to know how that big ass ram is Mach 32. It's charge was like building level. Did you read the Manga? Something even 10 tons hitting at that speed would've devastated the Hidden Rain, which obviously didn't happen.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I want to know how that big ass ram is Mach 32. It's charge was like building level. Did you read the Manga? Something even 10 tons hitting at that speed would've devastated the Hidden Rain, which obviously didn't happen.


I'm just going by what has been said and taking the weight of the ram and size into question.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

Said by whom?

Nagato's Ram evidently doesn't strike with town busting force, and Jiraiya cannot survive Town Busting attacks, or Asa Kujaku/Hirodua.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Said by whom?
> 
> Nagato's Ram evidently doesn't strike with town busting force, and Jiraiya cannot survive Town Busting attacks, or Asa Kujaku/Hirodua.


For something of that sheer size, hypersonic minimum is required for it to even move Rocky. Nagato's Ram can concentrate it into town-busting force and Jiraiya in Sage Mode sure as hell can survive either of that.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

Excuse me?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Excuse me?


When commenting on the size of these creatures, especially Kurama it was talked plenty of times that they'd have to be hypersonic to even appear moving.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

Um....why?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Just about the energy thing. And they can still catch shinobi that ARE moving at hypersonic+ speeds.


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## asstonine (Nov 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A went into his V2 Cloak, that IS his full power. He gave Bee a challenge and Bee not only met it, but exceeded A's expectations.
> 
> The manga flat out says Bee's been _lowering his attack power_ to equal A's.
> 
> ...



FACTS!!!
THIS FANFICTION &WANKING NEEDS TO STOP!!!


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

I don't think I've ever seen a giant creature move at hypersonic speeds, but even if they did, I think we're looking to far into it. There's too much science going on; I think Madara's meteor is a good example of Kishimoto flipping off science. It's okay to a degree, but this ram shit is getting ridiculous.


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## asstonine (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a giant creature move at hypersonic speeds, but even if they did, I think we're looking to far into it. There's too much science going on; I think Madara's meteor is a good example of Kishimoto flipping off science. It's okay to a degree, but this ram shit is getting ridiculous.



yes lets disregard facts, logic, and science to get back to wanking.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

I prefer to go with whats in the Manga instead of using a bunch of loose calculations based off other calculations to determine that Pain's fucking Ram delivered a town leveling headbutt to Base Jiraiya, who shook it off without a scratch. 

Oh, and the Ram also _*didn't level a town when it attacked in the Manga*_, despite its apparent ability to do so.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a giant creature move at hypersonic speeds, but even if they did, I think we're looking to far into it. There's too much science going on; I think Madara's meteor is a good example of Kishimoto flipping off science. It's okay to a degree, but this ram shit is getting ridiculous.


Well Madara's meteors were traveling at hypersonic speeds. Mach 38.

And why shouldn't the Ram have a lot of striking force behind it if it weighs a lot? Especially when it charges full speed?


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

A meteor that size hitting the earth at Mach 38 (or around there) flattens everything from New York to D.C., so I can assure you that meteor was_ not _going very fast. 

And neither was the ram, considering it's full speed charge was building level damage at best.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> A meteor that size hitting the earth at Mach 38 (or around there) flattens everything from New York to D.C., so I can assure you that meteor was_ not _going very fast.


Um, the meteor was _burning_ on the side that faced the ground, it had hit terminal velocity. The only reason why it didn't destroy that area was due to Onoki lightning and stopping it, Rocky.


> And neither was the ram, considering it's full speed charge was building level damage at best.


Again, why wouldn't its force be higher Rocky? Bijudama's are island level to small country and above in terms of energy, hell the Jyubi's are multi-continental level. All that energy focused in one place?


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## Ghost (Nov 24, 2013)

Sandaime Raikage is the only one who wins this for sure.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> A meteor that size hitting the earth at Mach 38 (or around there) flattens everything from New York to D.C., so I can assure you that meteor was_ not _going very fast.



Lol, Rocky.

A meteor that size hitting the earth at Mach 38 causes an extinction event. Punches right through the crust and turns whatever continent it lands on into a magma-spewing wound in the planet.



> And neither was the ram, considering it's full speed charge was building level damage at best.



Whoa, slow down there. You're getting WAY too technical for him. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, a boss ram has literally thousands to tens of thousands of tons of force behind it in a charge. Its like being hit by a battleship, yet Jiraiya took it without any damage.



And Hirudora is like getting punched in the face by the Hiroshima bomb, minus the heat.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Rasenshuriken is _city_ level at 53 megatons, Rocky.



FRS at its best showing was multi-cityblock.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not outright. Lets take Godzilla for an example, Rocky. First incarnation was 50 meters tall and 100 meters long: weighing up to 20,000 tons. Basically he would have 20 kilotons of power if he just fell from the sky and impacted like a meteorite.



Oh God, I can already tell this entire thread is going to be a goldmine of you-quotes. 

No, man. Godzilla falling would generate 20,000t (weight) multiplied by 9.81m/s^2 (acceleration due to gravity).

You shouldn't lecture other people on matters of physical science. Ever. 



> But merely moving around doesn't cause that damage.



That's because

1. Godzilla typically doesn't put his entire weight into his movements.

2. Godzilla's movements diffuse their energy through locomotion and physical contact rather than explosive force from a single, concentrated point instantaneously. Godzilla is huge and any force he exerts is transferred over a large area over a perceptible length of time. Compress that same force down to the size of a backpack and unleash it in every direction all at once, and what you have is fundamentally a suitcase nuke.



> Now lets take the size and mass of the boss Ram here: Around 49 meters tall and 91 meters long, it should weigh 6000 tons or as much as Gamabunta was calculated due to his sheer size. Merely moving around doesn't cause the destruction but its focused right on the charge. 6000+ tons of force behind it plowing right at Jiraiya, how much power should be behind that?



Nowhere near as much as went into Hirudora, which displaced a volume of water and air that makes the ox summon seem like a paperweight.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know that Naruto characters and creatures have been hypersonic+ for a LONG while right? The Ram, moving lets say Mach 32 hitting Jiraiya dead on with all of its weight behind it would be how strong?



No, let's NOT say "mach 32," because the resulting damage caused by its impact does not reflect that kind of velocity for something so massive.

Let's also NOT just make assumptions about OBD calcs and use them as the basis for other calcs, because that's called "calc-stacking" and even the OBD frowns on it.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For something of that sheer size, hypersonic minimum is required for it to even move Rocky. Nagato's Ram can concentrate it into town-busting force and Jiraiya in Sage Mode sure as hell can survive either of that.





Rocky said:


> Excuse me?



This is the correct response to what he just said there. 

There is no "hypersonic minimum" required for those summons to move. That doesn't even make sense; an object of any size or mass can move at any velocity, provided there is sufficient force propelling it.

In addition, the ox's charge was nowhere near "town-busting"; it caused damage to one skyscraper and the rest of Amegakure didn't feel a thing.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> When commenting on the size of these creatures, especially Kurama it was talked plenty of times that they'd have to be hypersonic to even appear moving.



Sure, if your name is "Superman."

I have no idea where you pull this information from. What kills me is that you just blurt it out with no self-control, without stopping to think about what you're saying.

The Kyuubi's feats are not backwards-scalable to the ox summon, in the first place. The rest is just garbled nonsense.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A went into his V2 Cloak, that IS his full power.



A does not have a Version 2 form.

He powered up his Raiton armor to its fullest level, but that doesn't mean he attacked B with intent to kill.



> He gave Bee a challenge and Bee not only met it, but exceeded A's expectations.



Once. Out of three attempts. And after that, A smacked him aside like he was a minor nuisance.



> The manga flat out says Bee's been _lowering his attack power_ to equal A's.



Yet he was in V1 form when they used Double Lariat. That's not "lowering his attack power."

The link you provided doesn't even say what you're saying; the side-text claims it was the Raikage's words that enabled B to surpass him- basically as close as it gets to saying B got a plot boost.



> A's fast, without a doubt. But the second he goes into an attack Bee is not only fast enough to counter, but tank it and deliver it back ten fold. Bee can tank everything A dishes out and deliver it back without any trouble.



B can't lay a finger on the Raikage at his top speed. Sasuke's eyes couldn't do it.



> Given said slug is capable of great speeds, splitting into smaller halfs, shooting acid?



Katsuyu isn't fast enough to catch B.



> And Tsunade could still just PUNCH him to let go...



Tsunade can't punch B without her upper-body and she can't catch him without her lower-body. So all B has to do is grab the lower-half and book it. Or just Ink Seal both halves.



> you really like making scenarios where your favorite does something out of the ordinary don't you?



I like to express my creativity. 

Evidently, you do too, Mr. "Town-level Ox Charge." 



> Which he has the feats for? Oh wait he doesn't.



B split Samehada and Kisame at the same time, and he threw Gai across the entire island turtle. He has the feats to prove he can do what I suggested.



> Jiraiya can comfortably tank it. His durability exceeds Kisame's. Kisame, barely conscious after Hirudora isn't the same as what Jiraiya did.



I'll give you a chance to prove all of that.



> You love downplaying Jiraiya, Naruto, Kurama, and wanking Kisame, Itachi, A, Bee, and Gai that your judgement is out of place.



Town-level ox charge.

Town-level ox charge that puts a hole in a single building and fails to fully penetrate.

Yeah, I don't need to hear criticism of _my_ judgment coming from you.



> Jiraiya could tank being kicked by Gai,



Base Gai. Kisame did the same thing, minus the bloody nose.



> being punched by Tsunade,



Madara and Orochimaru both did that as well. Tsunade's striking power is highly variable, due to the nature of the medical Ninjutsu she uses to augment it.

Incidentally, we didn't actually see Jiraiya get up and walk away from that one.



> survive and defeat KN4 Naruto,



Kisame beat 8-tailed V2 B. Gai fought a bunch of V2 Jinchuuriki at once.

Hell, Kisame ripped through Yamato's Mokuton with his bare hands, which Yonbi Naruto was unable to do.



> survive in base being plowed through metal and steel by a battering ram weighing thousands of tons.



Kisame survived explosive force visibly equivalent to many hundreds of thousands of tons.

Kisame is physically stronger than Jiraiya by a wide margin; he could've stopped that ram with a single arm.

And with the other arm, just like...jerked off. 

Jiraiya's strength is 4.5. Gai's strength is 5. 30% Shouten Kisame pressured Gai with one arm.

Even if you assume Shouten Kisame=Kisame and _*ignore Kisame's explicit statement that the Shoutens are weaker than the originals in proportion to the chakra they are given*_, that still puts Kisame over 2x base Jiraiya's physical strength. If you really want to assume Jiraiya tanked the ox charge in base form (which I find doubtful, but we'll go with it for the sake of argument), it should go without saying that Kisame can do the same. Easily.



> You downplay since hey, you consider Jiraiya 'chunin level' and you love wanking your favorites.



Jiraiya is Sannin-level; he's a mid tier Kage-level comparable to Orochimaru, stronger than the likes of Muu and the 2nd Mizukage but still weaker than Itachi and Killer B.

Now you should stop fixating on me so much and keep your focus on the topic at hand.



> Jiraiya tanking thousands of tons of force sending him through steel and an entire building in a gigantic trench which dwarfs any Lariat from Bee.



B's V2 Lariat is more powerful than this:

from Bee

from Bee

Which makes that ox's attack look like nothing.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

> He couldn't even knock Kisame through a fucking TREE with a V2 Lariat.



Kisame braced himself against the impact and created resistance. His body and Samehada absorbed most of the force and transferred it.



> Senjutsu merely can't be wiped out by the Yin-Yang weapons Obito uses. His body though is still damaged by it.



But regular Ninjutsu can't damage Obito, isn't that the case?

I don't recall. This manga kinda lost my attention after Itachi re-died Obito's mask came off.



> Cho Odama Rasengan can hollow out mountains, canonically. That translates to destroying large towns _if it explodes_.



...No.

"Mountain" and "hollow out" are vague terms. How big is the mountain? To what extent does it need to be damaged for it to be "hollowed out"? These things aren't clarified.

Based on what we've seen from comparable Rasengan variants, you're looking at building-level destructive power, most likely.



> And the FRS, which is 53 megatons of power can't do it?



FRS is nowhere near 53 megatons; it's not even in the megaton range, with the scale of the explosions we've seen it generate.



> FRS's explosion took up half the Chibaku Tensei crater which is as large as a mountain range as we can see here.



Hirudora's blast radius is bigger than that.



> Or that Hirudora, which barely chipped the rocks around Turtle Island,



For all your accusations of downplaying, you sure don't seem to have any qualms about doing it yourself:

as we can see here.

That is the area immediately OUTSIDE of the blast radius, and those rock spikes are not "barely chipped"- they are shattered.



> isn't as powerful as you claim despite all its flash?



It was powerful enough to displace a huge volume of water over several kilometers from a point of origin roughly the size of a basketball, and produced gale-force winds several kilometers beyond its actual blast radius.

THAT is what several megatons of force looks like.



> Gai was in the Sixth Gate given he immediately could launch Asakujuku against Saiken's acid mist. And if he was so much faster than any V2 form, why was he knocked away like a bitch? Shouldn't he have just dodged it according to your logic?



He was outnumbered; it wasn't just Gai vs a single V2 Jinchuuriki, it was Gai vs. _several_ V2 Jinchuuriki- with _Sharingan_ to boost their reaction time.

And technically, I did say Gai would have to open the 7th Gate, not just the 6th. :ignoramus



> Kisame has no feats whatsoever equalling a Sage Mode user.



Surviving Hirudora is a better durability feat than anything done by a Sage Mode user.



> He has no feats of sending boss summons into the sky.



Neither does Jiraiya, but that doesn't seem to bother you.

Kisame has other feats that put him on that level. Like I cited earlier, he broke out of Yamato's Mokuton, which is something Naruto couldn't do with 4 tails.



> He has no feats of tanking a fucking stomp from Kurama and living to tell the tell



Kisame never fought the Kyuubi. If he did, he would definitely survive what Sage Naruto's Kage Bunshin survived.



> (Kurama being strong enough to claw himself out of Chibaku Tensei puts everything Kisame's done to shame).



The Kyuubi pushed its entire body out through Chibaku Tensei and probably displaced most of it simply by transforming, given its size. More importantly, all of that force isn't transferred to Naruto because Naruto's body is smaller than the Kyuubi's paw and the area of impact (and half of the clone's body was not even hit by the attack).



> V2 Lariat couldn't even knock Kisame through a tree.



Because Kisame absorbed the impact himself. With Samehada. That's how energy transfer works.



> Hirudora couldn't even knock him out.



You're scaling backwards to downplay. Yes, Hirudora failed to knock him out; that means Kisame is capable of withstanding several megatons going off in his face.



> Yet Sage Mode Naruto, who can tank _Kurama's massive physical strength_ or Base Jiraiya, who can survive Gai's strength, Tsunade's strength, and the fucking boss ram with thousands of tons of force behind it slamming him _through steel and concrete and creating massive, deep trench that you couldn't see the bottom of_ is on the same level of Kisame?


 
Base Jiraiya is far below Kisame's physical level, except where speed is concerned. Sage Jiraiya and Sage Naruto are Kisame's physical peers, albeit significantly faster. Yes, Kisame survived Gai's hits (with and without Gates), yes, he would survive Tsunade's (if she wasn't trying to kill him), and yes, he would survive getting hit by Pain's ox summon and then rip out its spine, Predator-style. He would also survive getting stepped on by the Kyuubi, although there's not really anything he could do after that.



> Bee thought he got through to A which is why he didn't expect that punch. And not only that, A explicitly went all out against Bee in that lariat clash and Bee STILL overpowered him.



Then why did B lose the first time and draw the second? Why did he try to stop A with a tentacle and then get used like a club to putt Naruto into submission?



> The manga made it clear Bee was lowering his strength down to A's level, not the other way around.



You've said this twice now and haven't provided evidence either time. If the manga makes it clear, then show me where, because I see B going into V1 to match A's power for the Double Lariat, which contradicts what you are saying.



> Which is why he could here huh?



V2 B doesn't have backup from five other Jinchuuriki. Or Sharingan's movement prediction. Or Rinnegan's shared vision.



> Or they could just tank it given they've tanked things with more force than what Bee can dish out from feats.



They've never tanked anything close to the level of Hirudora, much less B's V2 Lariat, which is on another level entirely.



> And if they meet a Lariat with a Odama or Cho Odama Rasengan, or in Naruto's case a Rasenshuriken, they're going to plow through the ox skull that Bee wields.



None of those Rasengan variants have generated a yield comparable to Hirudora's and Lariat is even more powerful, which means you are mistaken about that.



> Not really. Sage Mode Naruto can dodge the Bijudama through sensing it and avoiding it.



All the Hachibi has to do is hit the ground nearby and Naruto is glassed. There's no dodging that.



> He can also get in close, grab Gyuki by the tall and power slam him down like he did Kurama.



Which does...nothing. The Yonbi did it to an injured Hachibi and it did nothing.



> Then he can aim a Rasenshuriken to Gyuki's chest.



Causes him minor injury/discomfort and then he goes back to taking wild swings at Naruto.

Bijuudama didn't put him down for the count. FRS isn't enough.



> Despite tanking his own Bijudama, the Rasenshuriken deals two different damage which Gyuki is still susceptible too.



Good thing the Hachibi can regenerate and is tough and big enough to absorb all the power of FRS without being destroyed.



> And even if a V2 Lariat hits, Naruto's tanked far worse in Sage Mode.



No he hasn't. He hasn't tanked anything close to that.



> Naruto, via a clone, could tank Chibaku Tensei clawing out force from Kurama, something far higher than what a V2 Lariat can dish out.



Problem: The Kyuubi's paw is bigger than Naruto's body. That force isn't transferred entirely into Naruto- it also diffuses into the ground around Naruto, where the paw impacts.

You're also ignoring the Kyuubi's active and sustained struggling to break through Chibaku Tensei; it was not a single paw swipe.



> And Killer Bee is susceptible to a clone feint.



Anyone is, but it doesn't matter because there's nothing Naruto can do to him.



> No, it really doesn't. Senpo: Odama Rasengan has enough force to send Biju sized summons into the stratosphere.



It barely sent Pain's summons flying a single kilometer.



> Futon: Rasenshuriken plows both attacks apart. Cho Odama Rasengan plows it apart.



Neither attack has a yield on par with Hirudora's, which means neither attack is breaking through a V2 Lariat.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

SSM12, knowing you, you will probably ignore everything I just typed without bothering to respond. If that's the case, I strongly urge you to at least read this following post. This is the most important thing I have to say to you, in this thread.

It's a bit wordy, but it's more personal, more serious, and more in-depth. No bullshit.



> Sorry, you're wrong Niku.



I'm not wrong and you're not sorry. 

You consistently tell me I'm playing favorites, but you're doing a lot of that yourself. Don't just take my word for it; look at how Rocky reacted to your claims. What you are saying is not simply wrong- it's patently outrageous to the impartial observer who understands the source material.

B's V2 Lariat is way more powerful than any boss summon's tackle. That's just stupidly obvious. Killer B doesn't even need any Bijuu chakra to overpower large animals like that. I wouldn't even say he's necessarily the weakest person capable of such feats.

The bias in your comparison of Hirudora and the Rasengan techniques is also hideously transparent because of the language you use to describe both techniques; FRS can obliterate cities and Chou Oodama can hollow out mountains, hell you even claim the ox summon's tackle that only damaged a building can destroy a whole town, but Hirudora only "barely chips rock."

You can say what you want about who's right or wrong here, but what you can't deny is that you've been casting unequal light on both sides in an effort to exaggerate or diminish efficacy according to your own agenda. At least when I say one is more powerful than the other, I stick to talking about size and force and the units that describe their measurement. Let me reiterate this for your convenience, in case you already forgot about it: In this thread, you have claimed that *Pain's ox summon's charge is town-level* and that *Hirudora barely chipped rocks*. There is no way you can even PRETEND to not notice how slanted and unfair that is.

What's worse is that you are using your own self-brainwashing to justify making claims about which attack is stronger than which, leading you to conclude obvious inaccuracies like Senpou: Oodama Rasengan being stronger than Hirudora and base Jiraiya having town-level durability because he survived an attack *that put a hole in one building and left the rest of the town completely unaffected*. You are actually doing yourself a disservice because you are deluding yourself into believing things that are visibly untrue.

It's like you don't even stop to think about the implications of what you're saying. Do you realize that if we accept that the ox summon's charge is more powerful than the Lariat and accept that Jiraiya tanked it in base form, that would mean that base Jiraiya is some kind of god-like diamond man compared to Kisame, who is physically stronger than him? Do you not see the problem with that??? It puts base Jiraiya's durability on a MUCH higher level than Kisame's- he might as well be a different species. Is that _really_ what the manga has shown us? What Kishimoto wants us to believe?

And then you go and stack Sage Mode on top of that. So not only does Hirudora fail to inflict any damage on Sage Jiraiya, but even Lariat bounces off his chest like bullets bounce off of Superman. Does that make sense to you? Is that really what you would expect to see if Jiraiya was hit with the attack in the manga, Sage Mode or (God help him) without it? A chakra horn hits him in the chest with the strength of a V2 Jinchuuriki pushing it at full steam, and he just takes the hit and gets back up like nothing happened? Is this really what you are expecting me (or anyone else) to believe? Is this really what YOU believe?

If we accept what you've claimed, that means Sage Mode should make him immune to even stronger attacks than V2 Lariat. Still not strong enough for his flesh to repel Pain's chakra rod, but hey, I guess three surgical scalpels are that much more destructive than Hirudora, right? 

Please tell me you don't actually believe any of this.

Look, I make mistakes. I'm only human. But you are human too, and you have made some _very_ big mistakes here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 24, 2013)

Aside from 4th & 3rd Raikages, B wins all scenarios. Gai, Naruto and Jiraiya(assuming all 3 start the fight with their respective power ups) would be pretty decent battles, I'd say they'll be all somewhat close.

Tsunade and Sakura are just outclassed heavily here, they won't be able to put much of a fight. Especially Sakura. B'd casually decapitate her with a lariat blitz.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Lol, Rocky.A meteor that size hitting the earth at Mach 38 causes an extinction event. Punches right through the crust and turns whatever continent it lands on into a magma-spewing wound in the planet.






The Meteor that killed the dinosaurs was a good six miles wide and had a velocity of around Mach 65, which if far bigger than Madara's meteor and nearly twice that of Mach 38, and it did _not_ do that.. Madara's may end civilization, but only because of the "volcanic" winter than follows. It wouldn't be a mass extinction event, at least not for humans.


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## Mercurial (Nov 24, 2013)

Ay, the Fourth Raikage = EXTREME DIFF WIN FOR BEE
Tsunade, the Fifth Hokage = BLITZED
Current Sakura = BLITZED
Jiraiya = MID DIFF WIN FOR BEE
Gai = EXTREME DIFF WIN FOR BEE (if Gai goes 8? Gate he would win but at the cost of his life)
Sage Naruto = EXTREME DIFF WIN FOR BEE
Third Raikage = DON'T KNOW


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The Meteor that killed the dinosaurs was a good six miles wide and had a velocity of around Mach 65, which if far bigger than Madara's meteor and nearly twice that of Mach 38, and it did _not_ do that.. Madara's may end civilization, but only because of the "volcanic" winter than follows. It wouldn't be a mass extinction event, at least not for humans.



The meteor/asteroid that theoretically could have caused the climate changes that killed the dinosaurs is not the minimum requirement for an extinction event, Rocky. But nice try.


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## Rocky (Nov 24, 2013)

If a six mile meteor didn't continent bust, then Madara's certainly won't. 

I think the OBD said it was a mere mountain buster at one point, IIRC.


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## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Neither attack has a yield on par with Hirudora's, which means neither attack is breaking through a V2 Lariat.


Both SM COR and FRS are ridiculously and incomparably more damage dense than the hirudorah that Kisame got hit with.  Even the far more concentrated one Gai used on madara didn't leave a crater in the ground like a 50% FRS does.

*Kisame's skin was pierced by normal kunai*, *gets pierced by a raitonless sword*, and  *he even stated that a raiton enhanced pencil would punch a hole in him.*  Kisame gets vaporized just like human path if he takes a FRS head on and gets splattered if he takes a SM COR head on.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If a six mile meteor didn't continent bust, then Madara's certainly won't.



The Chicxulub crater, the impact site of what was ostensibly the extraterrestrial body that wiped out the dinosaurs, is 118km in diameter. Any continent that kind of energy falls on is going to get pulverized.



> I think the OBD said it was a mere mountain buster at one point, IIRC.



Lol OBD. 



ueharakk said:


> Both SM COR and FRS are ridiculously and incomparably more damage dense than the hirudorah that Kisame got hit with.  Even the far more concentrated one Gai used on madara didn't leave a crater in the ground like a 50% FRS does.



Did we even get to see the crater produced by Gai's Hirudora on land? If not, then how are you arriving at this conclusion?



> *Kisame's skin was pierced by normal kunai*, *gets pierced by a raitonless sword*, and  *he even stated that a raiton enhanced pencil would punch a hole in him.*



I don't see how any of this is contradictory to what I said. B's Hachibi form can also be damaged with kunai and shuriken, even though it can withstand Bijuudama.



> Kisame gets vaporized just like human path if he takes a FRS head on and gets splattered if he takes a SM COR head on.



Doubtful, but the cellular damage would surely kill him (as it did Kakuzu).


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## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Did we even get to see the crater produced by Gai's Hirudora on land? If not, then how are you arriving at this conclusion?


Because every other attack which does cause a crater produces a crater on panel in at least once in its showings.  




Nikushimi said:


> I don't see how any of this is contradictory to what I said. B's Hachibi form can also be damaged with kunai and shuriken, even though it can withstand Bijuudama.


Bee can withstand a bijuudama because it's a combination of super durable and a giant. If the hachibi was the same size as a normal human then it wouldn't have a chance at withstanding its own bijuudama.  In addition to that, the shuriken and kunai that pierce bee either have super force behind their strike, attack his limbs, or have anti-bijuu powers something that none of the weapons that kisame was hit with possessed.

So no, Sandaime raikage can't even withstand a FRS if his RnY isn't up, and Kisame's durability is absolutely abysmal compared to his.  Obito's arm is far more durable than kisame, yet it gets damaged by a normal rasengan despite being durable enough to block the executioner's blade with zero damage.  Kisame can't survive a chidori to the gut, rasengan equals chidori and FRS = 25+ SM COR, kisame turns into dust.



Nikushimi said:


> Doubtful, but the cellular damage would surely kill him (as it did Kakuzu).


The only thing you've argued is that V2 Lariat > AT > FRS based on AT's and V2 lariat's ability to damage kisame despite the AT not being focused like it was against Madara, despite the intention of AT to incap kisame and destroy the sharks, and despite any and all of kisame's durability feats.  So in light of Kisame's other durability feats, the conclusion is that AT is either simply very inefficient at damaging a human-sized target or that the bigger the expansion is, the less damage dense the attack is.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Because every other attack which does cause a crater produces a crater on panel in at least once in its showings.



We're talking about craters here, not Schroedinger's Cat. 

It either makes one or it doesn't, and I think it's fairly obvious that Hirudora would make one.



> Bee can withstand a bijuudama because it's a combination of super durable and a giant. If the hachibi was the same size as a normal human then it wouldn't have a chance at withstanding its own bijuudama.



Actually, it would have a much better chance. Smaller surface area means exposure to less of the energy released by the explosion.



> In addition to that, the shuriken and kunai that pierce bee either have super force behind their strike, attack his limbs, or have anti-bijuu powers something that none of the weapons that kisame was hit with possessed.



I'm pretty sure Minato's kunai and Itachi's shuriken were just ordinary ninja tools.



> So no, Sandaime raikage can't even withstand a FRS if his RnY isn't up, and Kisame's durability is absolutely abysmal compared to his.



What indicates that the 3rd can't withstand FRS without his RnY?



> Obito's arm is far more durable than kisame, yet it gets damaged by a normal rasengan despite being durable enough to block the executioner's blade with zero damage.



I won't lie. I still wonder about that feat. 

But Obito's Zetsu parts really didn't sustain any major damage from Naruto's Rasengan. Hell, he took one to the head. 



> Kisame can't survive a chidori to the gut, rasengan equals chidori and FRS = 25+ SM COR, kisame turns into dust.



Rasengan doesn't cut like Chidori does. Broader point of contact, different distribution of energy output.



> The only thing you've argued is that V2 Lariat > AT > FRS based on AT's and V2 lariat's ability to damage kisame despite the AT not being focused like it was against Madara,



The distinction there is purely arbitrary, as no overt difference between the two was ever noted.



> despite the intention of AT to incap kisame and destroy the sharks, and despite any and all of kisame's durability feats.



Intention doesn't really matter when you throw a nuke in someone's face.



> So in light of Kisame's other durability feats, the conclusion is that AT is either simply very inefficient at damaging a human-sized target or that the bigger the expansion is, the less damage dense the attack is.



Any explosion that size is tremendously inefficient at damaging a human-sized target. That doesn't mean Hirudora is weak, though; we can see that's definitely not the case.


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> We're talking about craters here, not Schroedinger's Cat.
> 
> It either makes one or it doesn't, and I think it's fairly obvious that Hirudora would make one.


I don't think it's obvious at all that Hirudora would make one, in fact given its feat against kisame it would be extremely hardpressed to make one.  C2 didn't make one, yet that attack took of Sasuke's CS2 wing, which definitely is more durable than kisame.




Nikushimi said:


> Actually, it would have a much better chance. Smaller surface area means exposure to less of the energy released by the explosion.


If bee is the same size as the bijuudama he's going to take almost 40%-50% of the blast yet he's going to have hundreds if not thousands of times less mass (aka HP) to take that energy.  So the the energy exposure is incomparably smaller than the decrease in HP/mass to soak up the blast.




Nikushimi said:


> I'm pretty sure Minato's kunai and Itachi's shuriken were just ordinary ninja tools.


Itachi's shuriken were on fire and didn't even draw blood, minato's kunai was slammed into by far the weakest part of the hachibi's anatomy with enough force to crater the ground.  Kisame?  kunai thrown by aoba make him bleed, a raiton pencil would drill a hole right through him, a sword digs into his shoulder.




Nikushimi said:


> What indicates that the 3rd can't withstand FRS without his RnY?


The fact that he takes *this much damage from a combined fuuton while in base * and Temari is *blown away literally and figuratively by the sheer power of FRS* enough that she even believes it defeated him before seeing him come out of it.

Or the fact that a BM FRS cuts through the juubi's tails despite those tails not being cut by a *barrage of giant fuutons and slicing attacks coming from temari's company and the samurai.*




Nikushimi said:


> I won't lie. I still wonder about that feat.
> 
> But Obito's Zetsu parts really didn't sustain any major damage from Naruto's Rasengan. Hell, he took one to the head.


They still were damaged by it though, and no, Obito didn't headbutt a rasengan out of existence.




Nikushimi said:


> Rasengan doesn't cut like Chidori does. Broader point of contact, different distribution of energy output.


Doesn't matter if it doesn't cut, it still exerts the power of chidori into its target.  Kisame can't withstand a chidori, he can't withstand a rasengan, let alone a rasengan that's larger than his own body.




Nikushimi said:


> The distinction there is purely arbitrary, as no overt difference between the two was ever noted.


Um the fact that one of the ATs didn't even take up a significant portion of bee's whirlwind and the other AT was bigger than turtle island is a massive difference.




Nikushimi said:


> Intention doesn't really matter when you throw a nuke in someone's face.


Sure it does if intention dictates the concentration and damage density of said nuke.




Nikushimi said:


> Any explosion that size is tremendously inefficient at damaging a human-sized target. That doesn't mean Hirudora is weak, though; we can see that's definitely not the case.


Not saying Hirudora is weak, it's just not powerful compared to concentrated attacks like chidori or rasengan when used on a human sized target and expanded to the size of turtle island versus when it's concentrated in order to bust V3 susanoo.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 25, 2013)

V2 B takes them all the only one that is a problem is sm naruto with his FRS but I'm sure he could tank it. Eventually sm naruto is getting ripped in half by lariat. No one can pose a threat since with sharkskin protected under Bs cloak it can continously steal chakra and heal him. The raikages are rendered useless against B , guy can do whatever he wants his moves get tankeds B heals then once he's tired guy gets ripped in half. Sakura and tsunade obviously get owned. Jiraiya puts up a good fight but can't win


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## asstonine (Nov 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I prefer to go with whats in the Manga instead of using a bunch of loose calculations based off other calculations to determine that Pain's fucking Ram delivered a town leveling headbutt to Base Jiraiya, who shook it off without a scratch.
> 
> Oh, and the Ram also _*didn't level a town when it attacked in the Manga*_, despite its apparent ability to do so.



which means u dont understand  it, so why not disregard it.

The ram cant attack a town in one hit...  what ur saying doesn't make sense.


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 26, 2013)

asstonine said:


> which means u dont understand  it, so why not disregard it.
> 
> The ram cant attack a town in one hit...  what ur saying doesn't make sense.



ok, now ur jus bein waaay to epic, bruh


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