# Senju Tobirama vs Uzumaki Nagato



## pluuuuffff (Mar 15, 2015)

Senju Tobirama vs Uzumaki Nagato

Restrictions: -
Knowledge: -
State: Nagato PRIME, Tobirama PRIME and he can use 2 Edo Tenseis (only for Gojuu Kibakuu fuda).
Battlefield: Madara x Kages
Starting Distance: 50 meters. 
State of Mind: They want to KILL each other.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

Tobirama looses 
Everyone would tell u that 

His explosive tag jutsu though would only make Nagato dog summon much stronger 

Nagato would use that to escape . I don't believe ST or other means would work


----------



## Joakim3 (Mar 15, 2015)

Zero knowledge on Nagato?

lol, Tobirama gets stomped like an insect and ends up with a chakra rod through his skull


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 15, 2015)

Nagato wins this mid diff at the very most 
a large scale ST pastes tobirama, 
CST and CT are just overkill


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 15, 2015)

Nagato wins with just Chibaku Tensei as Tobirama has no knowledge and any tags he does set up gets pulled up by Chibaku Tensei.

 Edit: Oh wait, is this Nagato against Hanzo, or Nagato against Itachi, Naruto, and Bee?


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Nagato wins with just Chibaku Tensei as Tobirama has no knowledge and any tags he does set up gets pulled up by Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> Edit: Oh wait, is this Nagato against Hanzo, or Nagato against Itachi, Naruto, and Bee?



It's the prime one.

The one who fought Hanzo (physical), but he has Rinnegan control.

Anyway, I don't see a stomp. Tobirama's inteligence and ability might cause a little trouble.

However, I don't see him winning, it depends on how Nagato approachs. If he gets distracted, Tobirama can do the same he did against Izuna and tried against Madara...


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

No knowledge is worse for Tobirama, though to be frank he still has a chance if Nagato fucks around. 

FTG is one the most dangerous Ninjutsu in the manga, if there is a tag near him at all Nagato will be killed by Tobirama.

No knowledge on ST is worse, however. It succeeded in hitting characters such as SM Naruto, Killer Bee and Sharingan Kakashi when they lacked knowledge. 

If Tobirama had knowledge I do believe he could avoid it as he would notice Nagato putting his arm out and might even sense it before it happens, but without knowledge he's not going to be looking for a gravity burst from a random ninja putting him on his ass.

Now, ST doesn't kill him, but it puts him in a position where Nagato can flank him under duress and end him with Preta Path and/or Human Path, aside from a Chakra Rod in the head.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

tobirama is a sensor even without moving his hands 
tobirama should be able to tell that built up chakra coming his way

considering he fights with clones nagato  wont find it easy 

however his victory is certain


----------



## Bonly (Mar 16, 2015)

Nagato would win more times then not as Tobi gets overwhelmed sooner or later. Preta path+Deva to absorb/repel his ranged jutsu and the rest to put on quite a bit of pressure on Tobi and one slip up is gonna be the end of Tobi so unless he managed to tag Nagato somehow, he's not likely to come out on top.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

the only threat to tobirama is deva powers and human path 

preta is of no threat to him at all 

now ST was avoided by killer bee. so i dont see why tobirama who is faster cant avoid it 

however because of CT tobirama must loose. he isnt getting a tag that far away with no previous knowledge


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 16, 2015)

Actually, Bee didn't avoid it. On that stage, when Nagato appeared on his back, the repulsive force was already weaker.

Nagato's power is stronger. But Tobirama's style, using Space/Time techniques, it's a risk even for someone like Nagato. But more risky than that, is his inteligence. Tobirama has a great knowledge about almost everything in the world, and he is the kind of guy that strikes in the right time.

It's hard for him to find out about the 5 seconds delay, since Nagato alone has a lot of options (Different from Deva Path, Nagato has Fuuinjutsu Kyuuin, Shinra Tensei, Shurado's body, SENSOR)... But I don't see it as impossible.

I see Nagato winning more times than losing, but I see him losing at least in 2,3 situations. BUT, it depends on How both of them react.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> tobirama is a sensor even without moving his hands
> tobirama should be able to tell that built up chakra coming his way
> 
> considering he fights with clones nagato  wont find it easy
> ...


KCM Naruto was also a sensor, and he did not understand what was happening when Nagato levitated him in mid-air with gravity. Moreover, sensing chakra buildup =/= anticipating a burst of invisible and untraceable gravity. 

As far as 5-second delay is concerned on Deva's powers, it doesn't exist. Nagato ST'd Killer Bee to the side and levitated (BT) Naruto directly afterward. The delay was not mentioned by Naruto as a means of a strategy, even though he was practically helpless for most of their bout. 

Nagato obviously used two BTs consecutively when he pulled KCM Naruto and a rock out of the lake (I considered it a meteor but others suggest it came from the lake) at the same time. There is no delay for that path when Nagato uses it.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

because it came out of the lake
thats why others consider it a rock which came out from the lake 

nagato not having a cool down was never mentioned. 

eitherway its not like tobirama can exploit it. nagato has other options so he would have no way to know if its use is optional or limited


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> because it came out of the lake
> thats why others consider it a rock which came out from the lake
> 
> nagato not having a cool down was never mentioned.
> ...


Based on people suggesting water was flowing off of it, not fire, which is debatable, aside from the fact that it was dropping from above not being pulled from the side, which would obviously have been more logical if it were pulled from the lake adjacent to Nagato. 

Doesn't have to be mentioned, he proved there was no cool down when he used two BTs consecutively.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

fair point davizwiz
but considering bee on panel casually tanked nagato ST 
why do people make it sound like its going to turn tobirama into paste

if nagato attempts such a weak ST 
tobirama leaves a kunai behind and takes nagato head off 

also on panel konan did say the stronger nagato ST the more cool down there would be. hence why his village busting one prevented ST for a really long time


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

As far as the panel I posted previously, I discovered the reason Naruto didn't fall was because of the Chameleon's tongue which was hidden by the invisibility. That was my fault, unless he BT'd and wrapped with the tongue, it's probably just the tongue though. 

However, the double BT still stands as proof IMO. 

Konan suggested if he used CST through Deva Path it would be weakened and the cool down would be longer. That also wasn't Prime Nagato, that was skeleton Nagato controlling Deva, and it was clear she was talking about the path's capabilities- not Nagato's own. 

Prime Nagato may well be capable of using large-scale ST without any drawbacks, or even as skeleton Nagato capable of chain-gunning small-scale ST without any viable cool down between uses.

There's a clear difference between the power he uses through his paths and his own, and there's probably an even clearer difference between skeleton Nagato's capabilities and Prime Nagato's.

A lot of people have used the distance for the chakra transfer for the technique as a means of why there is a cool down with the undead path, I simply think the path was simply not capable of chain-gunning it no matter the distance. It was clear, however, that the path needed to be closer to Nagato to use CT.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

Fair but baseless assumption on prime Nagato ST ablities 
As for double BT
It wasn't a doubLe BT
BT pulls eveything toward him . BT was never described to pull only a singular object 

He pulled naruto and the rock towards him so that they run into each other

That's just 1 BT usage

what i would like to know is why ST gets such hype. outside taking out frogs and fodders. it hasnt really done much. i mean kakashi took 4, bee took one from nagato himself. naruto clones survived it. 

so what i want to know is how exactly is kakashi more durable than tobirama? i agree nagato wins but its not because of ST.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

It doesn't need to be said, Icegaze. Not every technique needs to have it's abilities written in the databook or talked about in the manga. 

Nagato pulled a rock out of the lake and down toward Naruto, who was being pulled toward Nagato. If he were pulling everything to himself the rock would've crushed Nagato and it would not have been targeting Naruto, it was clear he was guiding the techniques in differing directions and eventual differing locations.

BT also doesn't just pull things to himself, Deva Path guided a boulder directly into KN6 Naruto's face from afar and Madara levitated Sasuke in mid-air with his Rinnegan. 

Nagato <- KCM Naruto horizontally directly toward

KCM Naruto <- Rock vertically directly toward


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

@davizwiz u dissapoint me yet again 

if i am at the center of something and 2 things not parallel to each other are coming my way are u saying its impossible for them to collide first? seriously ? then again u think its a meteor which somehow appeared right above a lake, and the water on it is flames. so i dunno how to argue with u 

BT makes him the center of gravity does that mean anything he pulls comes crashing into him? no it doesnt

so i dont see how the giant boulder into KN6 face who was directly in front of deva counters my point 

last part of ur post has me confused. do look at the scans again. nagato pulled both things towards him 

the rock to his left, naruto in front of him. rock collides with naruto. its not rocket science 

and yes most techniques limitations are described in the DB. or stated in the manga. i dont see why on earth one should argue with them


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 16, 2015)

Only way nagato can lose is if he acts retarded again which only happened under kabuto's control(who didn't even know about nagato's great chakra sensing).

Here he would control the match up with deva path abilities, asura path+sensing counters and soul ripping for edo's(which are not even part 1 oro standards IIRC). Animal path and preta path is just fluff against someone as fast as tobirama who relies on blitzing and slashing his opponent down but nagato doesn't really need them.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

@blackguyinpinksuit 
Tobirama supports his ET and has his explosive tag jutsu the combo of the 2 far far outclasses oro use in part 1 
Soul ripping the ET. Makes Nagato the prime victim of explosive tag jutsu . He would be perfectly placed to eat a never ending blast . Granted I don't believe that puts him down but still just saying tobirama with ET 
Is more dangerous than what oro showed in part 1 

Actually Nagato would need his summons for extra eyes on the battlefield to prevent blitz from behind . Even sensors can't alwsys perfectly avoid attacks they can't see


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @blackguyinpinksuit
> Tobirama supports his ET and has his explosive tag jutsu the combo of the 2 far far outclasses oro use in part 1


I was talking about the control aspects of the technique not their firepower. Kabuto the best user of the technique stated that orochimaru refined the technique further than tobirama did. They can blow up but it would be hard catching high-top tier characters with edo that have garbage physical stats and tobirama not having alot of control over them.



> Soul ripping the ET. Makes Nagato the prime victim of explosive tag jutsu . He would be perfectly placed to eat a never ending blast . Granted I don't believe that puts him down but still just saying tobirama with ET


I was under the impression once the soul leaves the edo vessel then the body is useless(it looses form and turn to a ash pile). Tobirama jutsu can't work if the soul binding the edo to world is remove. Unless you think that jutsu can be set up and go off before nagato can touch it(hiruzen was even able to dash away from it and hashirama felt the need to hold down mindless juubito for it to work).



> Actually Nagato would need his summons for extra eyes on the battlefield to prevent blitz from behind . Even sensors can't alwsys perfectly avoid attacks they can't see


Your right especially if tobirama uses clones yeah this would be favorable.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

> @davizwiz u dissapoint me yet again


Not sure why I would disappoint you, did you pay for my services? Lol



> if i am at the center of something and 2 things not parallel to each other are coming my way are u saying its impossible for them to collide first? seriously ? then again u think its a meteor which somehow appeared right above a lake, and the water on it is flames. so i dunno how to argue with u


Dude, if you don't think he was guiding them both in front of him, you are blind. 

[1]
[2]

The boulder literally crashes in front of Nagato, not on Nagato, and it does not collide with Naruto AT ALL.  It's clear he's remotely controlling the boulder's trajectory. 

Your inability to admit fault is fucking comical, you lost the argument Icegaze, it's plainly obvious. 



> BT makes him the center of gravity does that mean anything he pulls comes crashing into him? no it doesnt


No it does not, have you been reading the fucking manga Icegaze?

Deva Path remotely controlling the trajectory of his boulder, moving it fast enough to crash into KN6 Naruto pushing him into his own bomb:
[1]


> so i dont see how the giant boulder into KN6 face who was directly in front of deva counters my point


Your point = Bansho Tenin attracts things to the user

My Scans = Nagato + Deva Path moving boulders into targets separate from themselves

The rock did not go to Nagato, it went to the front of Nagato to crush Naruto. The boulder did no go to Deva Path, it went into KN6 Naruto's left jaw and pushed him down into the ground.  

If the boulders were attracted to only the user, they would fucking crush the user. 



> last part of ur post has me confused. do look at the scans again. nagato pulled both things towards him


No he did not, if he pulled them toward him he would be fucking crushed. Do you understand basic logic? The rock fell onto the ground _in front of Nagato_. The boulder hit KN6 Naruto on the side of the face and pushed him down, who was _in front of Deva Path_. If the boulder was being attracted to Deva Path, it would have hit him from the backside not on the side of the jaw pushing him down. He pulled the boulder to KN6 Naruto. 



> the rock to his left, naruto in front of him. rock collides with naruto. its not rocket science


The rock didn't collide with Naruto, it hit the ground directly. He used a chakra arm to push off of it. 

Nagato slammed the rock into the ground in front of him- not onto himself. He was remotely controlling it's trajectory.

But this much should be obvious, if he pulled a rock from a lake to himself, how the fuck did it fall from above him? It should have hit Naruto from the side not from above. He literally pulled it above the lake then pulled it down in front of him, remotely controlling it.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 16, 2015)

Sure davizwiz

U find someone else who agrees with ur theories 

BT has a DB description I'll stick to what Kishi says 

@blackguy in pink suit 

Yes tobirama has less control howveer their physical stats aren't that relevant when they are getting Hirashin supprt 

That's what he would use to get them in range to blow up


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @blackguy in pink suit
> 
> Yes tobirama has less control howveer their physical stats aren't that relevant when they are getting Hirashin supprt
> 
> That's what he would use to get them in range to blow up



Yeah that's been a viable method of using his but against a opponent of nagato's caliber and versatility, babysitting clones and fighting at max efficiency...i just can't give tobirama that much benefit of a doubt.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 16, 2015)

> Sure davizwiz
> 
> U find someone else who agrees with ur theories
> 
> BT has a DB description I'll stick to what Kishi says


It's not a theory, it's plainly drawn by the author in black and white.

I wouldn't recommend sticking with databook entries as it's generally only good for it's paper- that is, to wipe your ass with.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

erm so whats the manga???? cardboard?? a tree???

If nagato use of BT was different naruto would have mentioned it. naruto knew all of the paths techniques. 

he even mentioned nagato use was quicker, you dont think if kishi wanted us to think it could be used to pull 2 different objects he would have had naruto comment on it. considering that was nagato opening move??

@blackguyinpink suit..
its not baby sitting really. his ET would be marked, he throws kunais at nagato or clones and eitherway. it gives him a range of options. either he appears next to his ET and goes for hirashingiri or sets them off. 

Also note, so long as his ET are linked to his chakra. he can hirashin his ET at will to any mark..while using hirashin himself to go to a different mark. trust me its abit tougher for nagato than you think 

considering his ST didnt do squat to bee or KCm naruto


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @blackguyinpink suit..
> its not baby sitting really. his ET would be marked, he throws kunais at nagato or clones and eitherway. it gives him a range of options. either he appears next to his ET and goes for hirashingiri or sets them off.


Only problem is he must be in contact with his ET's to move them around to markers. With nagato's gravity powers, asura path body mods and human path interfering with tobirama's flow he won't just be able to do all that for sure. If tobirama was so fast he could just perform all that with him interfering he could just blitz him and tear him down period but that's not the case. Tobirama just has too much on his plate.



> Also note, so long as his ET are linked to his chakra. he can hirashin his ET at will to any mark..while using hirashin himself to go to a different mark. trust me its abit tougher for nagato than you think


Nagato would just CST to interrupt or fly to slow down tobirama's onslaught and strategies if he gets the chance to become that annoying. 



> considering his ST didnt do squat to bee or KCm naruto


None of those were on the level of the toad wrecking one of CST. Also remember even something as freakish as naruto 6 tail formed was needed to prevent being sent flying when pain was using more serious shinra tensei.

Anyway i think you believe tobirama doesn't win but can just hang for a while. That's no problem with me.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Only problem is he must be in contact with his ET's to move them around to markers. With nagato's gravity powers, asura path body mods and human path interfering with tobirama's flow he won't just be able to do all that for sure. If tobirama was so fast he could just perform all that with him interfering he could just blitz him and tear him down period but that's not the case. Tobirama just has too much on his plate.



wrong!!! the ET have his chakra. he can hirashin anything connected to his chakra. remember the fodders he saved. ET are controlled with his chakra. there he can remotely hirashin them
its easier to move ET who cant die towards nagato than him going himself. they serve as distractions and to also test nagato ability. however if he goes in by himself and is countered he could get killed 



> Nagato would just CST to interrupt or fly to slow down tobirama's onslaught and strategies if he gets the chance to become that annoying.



CST would interrupt however it wont kill. also CST is fan made. call it what it is ST. which btw KCM and bee tanked point blank 


> None of those were on the level of the toad wrecking one of CST. Also remember even something as freakish as naruto 6 tail formed was needed to prevent being sent flying when pain was using more serious shinra tensei.



like i said u gotta prove they werent. he sent the toads flying, was it stated it was a stronger than the normal one? he was still on a 5 second cool down. its replusive force. he did the same and took out chouza squad because of the force they came at him with or something. 

i dont really get it but knocking out the toads was just that. he knocked them out. good for him. he also failed to do that against kakashi 4 times. so then why didnt he? was he not trying to kill kakashi??



> Anyway i think you believe tobirama doesn't win but can just hang for a while. That's no problem with me.



he doesnt win that much is clear. am just arguing against ur ideas of how Et would be useful in battle and the ST hype despite it failing to KO killer bee, KCM naruto and kakashi(btw zero durability feats from kakashi to suggest he is any more durable than any other ninja)


----------



## Ghost (Mar 17, 2015)

Tobi is not fucking winning this. He dodges Nagato's lesser attacks and then gets pasted by CST.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Tobi is not fucking winning this. He dodges Nagato's lesser attacks and then gets pasted by CST.



Tobirama can dodge that by leaving the area and coming back, as long as he leaves behind a mark.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

yes rocky i agree but tobirama simply cant kill nagato 
all tobirama techniques can be countered without nagato needing to move. 

preta+deva+asura+animal path summons seal the deal. tobirama would not find any openings to exploit. 

Also his ET can get chakra rods in them and be controlled against him. taking away a good part of his arsenal 

that leaves him with a kunai. which really wont cut it


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> wrong!!! the ET have his chakra. he can hirashin anything connected to his chakra. remember the fodders he saved. ET are controlled with his chakra. there he can remotely hirashin them
> its easier to move ET who cant die towards nagato than him going himself. they serve as distractions and to also test nagato ability. however if he goes in by himself and is countered he could get killed


Okay this is true i remember that scene now. Still being unable to outright blitz, flight, deva path reflecting the kunai's he gotta get near nagato and potentially soul ripping the edo's still fucks up tobirama's game i believe.





> CST would interrupt however it wont kill. also CST is fan made. call it what it is ST. which btw KCM and bee tanked point blank


KCM naruto and bee never tanked the ST that pancaked konoha tho(that's what i call CST). The one they took just messed up some of the forest.




> like i said u gotta prove they werent. he sent the toads flying, was it stated it was a stronger than the normal one?


It don't really gotta be stated if we go off feats. He probably put more power into it but pushing those giants to the village outskirts is on a high level than say pushing naruto's clone or a nail a few meters.



> he was still on a 5 second cool down. its replusive force. he did the same and took out chouza squad because of the force they came at him with or something.


True but even there those akimichi ain't get flung out the village. Is there something wrong with deva just pumping more power in the attack at the time he attack the toads to you?



> i dont really get it but knocking out the toads was just that. he knocked them out. good for him. he also failed to do that against kakashi 4 times. so then why didnt he? was he not trying to kill kakashi??


Well plot for one. Also wasn't he looking to get info out of kakashi(just like with all the other shinobi in the village) before he decided to kill him?


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 17, 2015)

It's feasible for Tobirama to kill Nagato, just because Nagato is very reckless and seemingly susceptible to surprise attacks from behind - of which Tobirama is a master of, according to Madara. In the grand scheme of things, though, Tobirama isn't quite in the same league and I see Nagato winning more often than not.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 17, 2015)

None of them have the speed and reflexes of JJ Obito or Madara, and Tobirama is very smart in the actually smart way, and also has two edos he can tag to gather knowledge and be immortal jump points, plus FTG to save himself and any of them from any attack.  His clones being able to operate on kage level with near enough his own reflexes for Pain bodies evens numbers out further.  CST is possible, but it's unlikely he will get to use it with the fastest most do something man is around, and I don't think it will kill him if it hit his holy Senjuness, and Chibaku tensei is countered by a couple of edo going paper mache suicide on the core.  He can lose if Nagato nukes when he has no edos left, but Tobirama would have to be very not Tobirama to let all of his edos get soul ripped when he can stab the two soul rippers in the brain.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama can dodge that by leaving the area and coming back, as long as he leaves behind a mark.



Deva's CST flattened Konoha and Nagato's should be even stronger, no? I don't see how Tobirama could avoid it even with Hiraishin. He doesn't have a pocket dimension like Obito does, so no matter where pops up he gets hit? Correct me if I'm missing something here.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Deva's CST flattened Konoha and Nagato's should be even stronger, no? I don't see how Tobirama could avoid it even with Hiraishin. He doesn't have a pocket dimension like Obito does, so no matter where pops up he gets hit? Correct me if I'm missing something here.



I count the tags spread around the world as standard equipment (Sasori's puppets, Deidara's clay, Sakura's Byakugo no In, etc.) because the characters as we know them in the manga would never be in a battle situation without them.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I count the tags spread around the world as standard equipment (Sasori's puppets, Deidara's clay, Sakura's Byakugo no In, etc.) because the characters as we know them in the manga would never be in a battle situation without them.



Even if we were to allow that Tobi would still lose. The tags spread around the battlefield with Nagato are gone and he cannot teleport back. I thought its a general consensus that Minato nor Tobirama have any tags prepared before hand.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I count the tags spread around the world as standard equipment (Sasori's puppets, Deidara's clay, Sakura's Byakugo no In, etc.) because the characters as we know them in the manga would never be in a battle situation without them.



Even so, without any knowledge, it's hard for Tobirama to dodge it like that.

He is a sensor type, but not even a Sharingan user, or Naruto's Kyuubi/SM sensor did something against it.

Also, Tobirama can't tell that Nagato's going to use a Shinra Tensei strong enough to wipe out the entire area.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 17, 2015)

Of my ten desires, posting twice is one.

If this is just Nagato, Tobirama tags his edos and sends them in.  All of the Edo kages used their edo forms to gather knowledge, because that's reasonable.  Nagato kills them, and they reform.  Nagato's only counter to the edos is soul rip.  But that's close range, and they explode relentlessly as a gift, and if they're tagged, Tobirama can do  to Nagato.  Nagato probably can't react to Hiraishin-giri with knowledge, and in this case he has none.



Saikyou said:


> Even if we were to allow that Tobi would still lose. The tags spread around the battlefield with Nagato are gone and he cannot teleport back. I thought its a general consensus that Minato nor Tobirama have any tags prepared before hand.



If Tobirama tags his edos, their tags will remain and reform.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 17, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> It's feasible for Tobirama to kill Nagato, just because Nagato is very reckless and seemingly susceptible to surprise attacks from behind - of which Tobirama is a master of, according to Madara. In the grand scheme of things, though, Tobirama isn't quite in the same league and I see Nagato winning more often than not.



I do agree with you.

Even knowing that Nagato's shared vision and sensor gives him a potential defense against Tobirama's Hiraishin, he has no speed to dodge it. He needs his Shinra Tensei, and Shurado's Path to  do it.

Tobirama isn't in the same league, but he has chances because of his genious intelect and opportunism.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

General consensus is not law Saikyou, and it'd be wrong if that were indeed the case. I'm personally not sure why it'd be any different than Gaara bringing a gourd prepared with Charka-Infused sand to a fight.

Regarding this fight, why would any tags disappear? They'd just be pushed aside like all of the village ruble was. It's also worth noting that Tobirama teleported to a location inside the boundaries of Konoha and thus utilized a tag _post Nagato's village-destroying CST._ It isn't like he was around to replace them. 

Also, what PoW said.



			
				Pluf said:
			
		

> Even so, without any knowledge, it's hard for Tobirama to dodge it like that.
> 
> He is a sensor type, but not even a Sharingan user, or Naruto's Kyuubi/SM sensor did something against it.
> 
> Also, Tobirama can't tell that Nagato's going to use a Shinra Tensei strong enough to wipe out the entire area.



If Tsunade was able to realize it and cover multiple villagers with Katsuyu while also spreading out her chakra to all of the different slugs despite _not_ being a sensor, I think Tobirama will manege.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 17, 2015)

Wait, Tobirama has access to edo tensei here? I might need to review this.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 17, 2015)

The Moderator didn't read the opening post?


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Wait, Tobirama has access to edo tensei here? I might need to review this.



really **


----------



## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he doesnt win that much is clear. am just arguing against ur ideas of how Et would be useful in battle and the ST hype despite it failing to KO killer bee, KCM naruto and kakashi(btw zero durability feats from kakashi to suggest he is any more durable than any other ninja)



Kakashi tanked like it was nothing a surprise Domu-enhanced kick from Kakuzu that send him flying for metres away and breaking some giant trees , the same enhanced body blow from Kakuzu destroyed an enormous door enhanced with a special seal, and remember that with the same level of skill and strength a kick will be always stronger than a punch (1)(2)(3); just some seconds after Kakashi got standing and fended of Hidan, then dodged Kakuzu's surprise point blank massive AoE Fuuton, then he dashed to intercept Kakuzu's Raiton Gian directed against the team 10. He tanked a couple of Shinra Tensei, and didn't lose consciousness even from the also third one, as Choza (one who could jump right in between Asuma' Katon ash ninjutsu tanking it like a boss) did faint. Kakashi also fought a lot of times with wounds and injuries without his performance being hindered. Saying that he has no durability feats it's wrong, he is a really tough friend.

On the actual match up, I'd say that this is an open match. Nagato is probably stronger on a general level, but Tobirama could defeat him.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 17, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The Moderator didn't read the opening post?



I do what I want.

(I read the opening post a long time ago, when the thread I was made and I scanned over it to make sure things were okay. I forgot, though. I'm ill, shut up.)

On another note, I think I'm more inclined to agree with PoW if Tobirama has access to regenerating suicide zombies.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 17, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Wait, Tobirama has access to edo tensei here? I might need to review this.



Yes, he has. I gave him 2 Edo Tenseis BUT he can only use it for GOjuu Kibakuu fuda.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 17, 2015)

> If Tsunade was able to realize it and cover multiple villagers with Katsuyu while also spreading out her chakra to all of the different slugs despite not being a sensor, I think Tobirama will manege.



Well, Nagato was concentrating all the chakra that he had in the other 5 corpses in Deva's. Because of that, it took enough time to Tsunade realizes that Pain was going to do something catastrophic.

Here, we have a Prime Nagato, a health one with full chakra, and all the chakra that was divided in 6 bodys are in the same now.

So, I guess that he needs no time to do that Shinra Tensei. In my opinion, he was going to need the same time that he needed to use that one that reppeled 3 frogs, what means - instantenously.

BUT, even knowing that Nagato wants to kill Tobirama, CST isn't something that I'm seeing Nagato using at the start without any knowledge from his opponent.

That's why I see chances for Tobirama, when he has his genious intelect, opportunism, S/T techniques, speed, and better reflexes than nagato's.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Regarding this fight, why would any tags disappear? They'd just be pushed aside like all of the village ruble was.


The location is Madara vs Gokage. There is nothing but those rock formations and ground for Tobirama to tag. Only tags left would be the ones Tobirama has put on kunais which would get pushed very far away.






> If Tsunade was able to realize it and cover multiple villagers with Katsuyu while also spreading out her chakra to all of the different slugs despite _not_ being a sensor, I think Tobirama will manege.



Not comparable situations imo. CST would happen a lot faster in here than it did during Pain's invasion (all that slowly rising to the sky etc.)

I don't really see Tobirama playing around Nagato's CST. Plus ST isn't the only thing in Nagato's quite vast arsenal that can screw Tobi over.


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I count the tags spread around the world as standard equipment (Sasori's puppets, Deidara's clay, Sakura's Byakugo no In, etc.) because the characters as we know them in the manga would never be in a battle situation without them.



We've seen Sasori without his puppets, Deidara short on clay, and Sakura without her seal charged in battle situations before, haven't we? 

I still think leaving the specified battlefield itself like that is a forfeit.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> The location is Madara vs Gokage. There is nothing but those rock formations and ground for Tobirama to tag. Only tags left would be the ones Tobirama has put on kunais which would get pushed very far away.



Those rock formations would be pushed aside like the buildings in Konoha were, and Tobirama would teleport to them (or any left behind Kunai) and jump back into the battlefield. 



> Not comparable situations imo. CST would happen a lot faster in here than it did during Pain's invasion (all that slowly rising to the sky etc.)



Since Tsunade didn't know that CST was on the way, I don't see why the "slowly rising" thing would matter here.



FlamingRain said:


> We've seen Sasori without his puppets, Deidara short on clay, and Sakura without her seal charged in battle situations before, haven't we?



Unless specified otherwise, those aren't the versions we use in the Battledome. 



> I still think leaving the specified battlefield itself like that is a forfeit.



That rule is taken from the OBD, where characters only lose should they be unable to return to the battlefield in a reasonable amount of time. Just leaving isn't an auto-forfeit. I don't know where you are getting that from.

If that were the case, Obito would be worthless here.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Those rock formations would be pushed aside like the buildings in Konoha were, and Tobirama would teleport to them (or any left behind Kunai) and jump back into the battlefield.


Eh, I'm fairly certain the rock would get turned to dust just like the ground beneath Deva Path did. I don't see how they would just "be pushed aside". Solid rock/earth is very different from buildings that are made of wood and concrete with steel/iron support. 



> Since Tsunade didn't know that CST was on the way, I don't see why the "slowly rising" thing would matter here.



3

Tsunade starts preparing immediately after Deva takes off giving her some time. Tobirama also has zero knowledge while Tsunade had information of Pain's abilities coming to her through out the invasion. 

And was it actually said that Tsunade made Katsuyu to protect the citizens and not Katsuyu acting on her own? 

Anyways, I don't see how Tobi is out playing an attack so powerful and unpredictable as CST.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Eh, I'm fairly certain the rock would get turned to dust just like the ground beneath Deva Path did. I don't see how they would just "be pushed aside". Solid rock/earth is very different from buildings that are made of wood and concrete with steel/iron support.



The difference is negligible, so I don't see a reason that those formations wouldn't just crumble and be pushed aside. Though Tobirama still has Kunai....and immortal zombies...if this is truly an issue. 



> 3
> 
> Tsunade starts preparing immediately after Deva takes off giving her some time. Tobirama also has zero knowledge while Tsunade had information of Pain's abilities coming to her through out the invasion.



All I see in that scan is wariness that Pain may have something else planned. 

If Tsunade is capable of reacting to "Pain's plan" with Creation Rebirth, then why would Tobirama be incapable of responding with Hiraishin? Does that sound right to you?

Regarding the knowledge, Tobirama will have garnered all he needs to know by the time CST is a problem.



> And was it actually said that Tsunade made Katsuyu to protect the citizens and not Katsuyu acting on her own?



It's irrelevant. It isn't like Katsuyu had anymore foreknowledge Tsunade, and Tsunade still funneled her chakra out to the villagers.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Btw, I'm not even saying that Tobirama will win the fight. He just isn't losing to CST.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 17, 2015)

I agree that Tobirama _can_ survive CST but I find it highly unlikely to happen.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

If that's your viewpoint despite everything I've said, then so be it. I just disagree.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 17, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Only way nagato can lose is if he acts retarded again which only happened under kabuto's control(who didn't even know about nagato's great chakra sensing).



How did he act retarded in that battle?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 17, 2015)

I do think Tobirama can win this as Prime Nagato was completely reckless with his usage of the Rinnegan and that resulted in him actually getting caught by explosive tags by Hanzo. 

 That same Hanzo was then effortlessly assassinated by Pain who's said to be inferior to an Older Nagato, so I do think Prime Nagato is much weaker than Adult Nagato (as shown against Bee, Naruto, and Itachi).


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi tanked like it was nothing a surprise Domu-enhanced kick from Kakuzu that send him flying for metres away and breaking some giant trees , the same enhanced body blow from Kakuzu destroyed an enormous door enhanced with a special seal, and remember that with the same level of skill and strength a kick will be always stronger than a punch (1)(2)(3); just some seconds after Kakashi got standing and fended of Hidan, then dodged Kakuzu's surprise point blank massive AoE Fuuton, then he dashed to intercept Kakuzu's Raiton Gian directed against the team 10. He tanked a couple of Shinra Tensei, and didn't lose consciousness even from the also third one, as Choza (one who could jump right in between Asuma' Katon ash ninjutsu tanking it like a boss) did faint. Kakashi also fought a lot of times with wounds and injuries without his performance being hindered. Saying that he has no durability feats it's wrong, he is a really tough friend.
> 
> On the actual match up, I'd say that this is an open match. Nagato is probably stronger on a general level, but Tobirama could defeat him.



so all that just tells me tobirama can also tank ST the same way. wow u got a kakashi hard on though. 80% of your post about a character not even in the match up


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How did he act retarded in that battle?



Because he was just dreaming after his chibaku tensei got destroyed and then got raped by the totsuka without even trying to do anything the whole time.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 18, 2015)

No one has ever been able to anticipate or predict ST in the manga, 
SM naruto and KCM Naruto failed to sense it whilst edo itachi and EMS Sasuke failed to see the so called built up through their sharingan 

Tobirmaa is no exception to this either, he isn't sensing it not is he seeing it coming and he isn't reacting to an instant intangible force that will knock him kilometers away and break every bone in his body, and to top it off all the surrounding markings will also get repelled eliminating tobiramas chances of coming at nagato during his interval, not that he is ever getting back up from ST that strong and attacking him before his cool down finishes 

@Icegaze - I don't see why you want the manga to spoon feed everything for you, nor do I see the logic behind you comparing a small ST to a large one saying that tobirmaa with no special durability can tank a boss sized ST just because SM naruto survived a minuscule ST , come on now


----------



## Trojan (Mar 18, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Because he was just dreaming after his chibaku tensei got destroyed and then got raped by the totsuka without even trying to do anything the whole time.



But they were inside the smoke, he was not able to see anything, and the attack was too fast. Not to mention him not being in control of his acts either, and the fact that he was not able to move even if he wants too. I wouldn't consider that to be "retarded" honestly.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> But they were inside the smoke, he was not able to see anything,


That doesn't even hinder a sensor at nagato's level who could sense kabuto kilometers away behind a barrier that was supposed to hide kabuto's presence from the outside of it. If they are fighting nagato should be aware and doing something to prepare being able to always sense enemies presence. But instead he was just...staring.



> and the attack was too fast.


When he can control a corpse with his own chakra/reactions to dodge shit like FRS at point blank then a totsuka stab should not be out of his dodging limits. Totsuka doesn't really have any feats beyond that or nailing speedy moving targets etc so i would rank it in the "too fast" category some other projectiles been put it. 



> Not to mention him not being in control of his acts either, and the fact that he was not able to move even if he wants too.


I said that in my first post you quoted but yeah that is the reason it happened. It was still retarded.



> I wouldn't consider that to be "retarded" honestly.


If any high/top tier goes into a daze after one of their strongest techniques being destroyed i certainly wouldn't call that normal or smart.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 18, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> It's feasible for Tobirama to kill Nagato, just because Nagato is very reckless *and seemingly susceptible to surprise attacks from behind* - of which Tobirama is a master of, according to Madara. In the grand scheme of things, though, Tobirama isn't quite in the same league and I see Nagato winning more often than not.



Well Nagato is a sensor which should give him a heads up to an attack from behind just like Muu was helped from a blindside attack and as we saw Asura path was able to make extra faces, each face with a Rinnegan and we know how shared vision and help as well so that could help in stopping a blindside though that depends if Nagato is smart enough to think of it.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If this is just Nagato, Tobirama tags his edos and sends them in.  All of the Edo kages used their edo forms to gather knowledge, because that's reasonable.  Nagato kills them, and they reform.  Nagato's only counter to the edos is soul rip.  But that's close range, and they explode relentlessly as a gift, and if they're tagged, Tobirama can do  to Nagato.



Technically if Nagato summoned the Gedo he could use soul rip from a long distance and not have to deal with any "gifts" in that fashion though that would prolly leave him open to attacks unless he can use other Rinnegan abilities while connected to the Gedo in which case he'd be good. Or he could use CT to get rid of them and as long as any tags placed is within CT's ranged, if Hiraishin is used then they would be teleported right back into CT. 




blackguyinpinksuit said:


> That doesn't even hinder a sensor at nagato's level who could sense kabuto kilometers away behind a barrier that was supposed to hide kabuto's presence from the outside of it. If they are fighting nagato should be aware and doing something to prepare being able to always sense enemies presence. But instead he was just...staring.
> 
> When he can control a corpse with his own chakra/reactions to dodge shit like FRS at point blank then a totsuka stab should not be out of his dodging limits. Totsuka doesn't really have any feats beyond that or nailing speedy moving targets etc so i would rank it in the "too fast" category some other projectiles been put it.



He wasn't in control, Kabuto was, what the fuck do you expect Nagato to do when he's not in control of his own body, river dance?



> I said that in my first post you quoted but yeah that is the reason it happened. It was still retarded.



Then why even say anything about Nagato being/acting retarded, wouldn't it be smarter to say Kabuto is retarded since he was in control rather then calling the person who can't control his own body retarded? I mean I wouldn't even call that retarded, I would call when your boy Kiba told people to look at the moon when MT was being used retarded but that's just me


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 18, 2015)

> Technically if Nagato summoned the Gedo he could use soul rip from a long distance and not have to deal with any "gifts" in that fashion though that would prolly leave him open to attacks unless he can use other Rinnegan abilities while connected to the Gedo in which case he'd be good. Or he could use CT to get rid of them and as long as any tags placed is within CT's ranged, if Hiraishin is used then they would be teleported right back into CT.



I guess technically, but why would he start with the gedo in a no knowledge situation?

That's not to say I'm impressed by the gedo's soul rip anyway.  Lots of fodder dodged it's rampage, and edo's are connected to Tobirama via their chakra link.  Which means Tobirama can warp them at will without physical contact.  But if Nagato starts with it, and hits both of them, and also covers himself from multiple angles, Tobirama can still set up with a clone rush or something.  

I don't think Chibaku tensei's core can take two of  if it sucked up the edos.  But that's also assuming Nagato opts to cast his life shortening techniques to deal with zombies of BT+soul rip.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 18, 2015)

The manga has shown us how Hiraishin users fares against sensors when Tobirama tried to use it on Madara. Madara sensed him and effectively avoided him.

Sure, we can say that Madara is faster than Nagato. However, Nagato doesn't need to dodge Tobirama when the latter tries to blindside him.

Tobirama warps behind Nagato and eats a Shinra Tensei. Tries to teleport to mitigate the already bad damage, and keeps momentum behind and still crashes.

Just like happened to Minato when he teleported to save himself from Obito. He kept the momentum he gathered from Obito's Kamui and crashed. (1) (2)

And Tobirama wouldn't crash that soft with Shinra Tensei.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 18, 2015)

he teleported behind obito several times tho...


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 18, 2015)

But that was before being pulled, if i am not mistaken. The only time he was so close to be warped, to the point of having his body pulled, he couldn't erase the momentum with Hiraishin.

Or did you mean he managed to get behind Obito with Hiraishin even with sensing?


----------



## Trojan (Mar 18, 2015)

> Or did you mean he managed to get behind Obito with Hiraishin even with sensing?



yes. 
I didn't get what you mean with the whole pulling stuff. -_-


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> yes.



But Obito wasn't a sensor before becoming a Juubi Jin, if i am not mistaken. (Even though how he located Minato makes me doubt). But i don't see the problem. Tobirama also did it behind Madara and would certainly do it against Nagato.

I just said that Nagato would sense him just like Madara did and blasts him with ST.



> I didn't get what you mean with the whole pulling stuff. -_-



Oh. That Tobirama won't avoid crashing hard against the floor if he's hit with ST using Hiraishin as he will keep all (or almost all) the momentum behind. And i put an example of how Minato crashed when Obito was pulling him and he teleported. Probably because the momentum he had with the pull went with him.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> But they were inside the smoke, he was not able to see anything, and the attack was too fast. Not to mention him not being in control of his acts either, and the fact that he was not able to move even if he wants too. I wouldn't consider that to be "retarded" honestly.



 This. Kabuto mentioned that the gang countered everything he had and could not avoid it due to lack of mobility, which he attempted to fix with Kuchiyose Rinnegan which of course, was countered. Nagato was not being an idiot. Nagato managed to separate Killer Bee, Naruto, and Itachi away from each other and nearly killed Naruto and Bee using that strategy.

 That's not "retarded", that's absolutely downplaying what Nagato managed to do in that match. Kabuto does analyze the battle situation and managed to revive Madara and even deceive Obito by managing to summon ET Madara without Obito knowing despite Kabuto having Zetsu spores attached to his own body. That's not retarded. That's actually pretty smart.


----------



## Joakim3 (Mar 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> This. Kabuto mentioned that the gang countered everything he had and could not avoid it due to lack of mobility, which he attempted to fix with Kuchiyose Rinnegan which of course, was countered. Nagato was not being an idiot. Nagato managed to separate Killer Bee, Naruto, and Itachi away from each other and nearly killed Naruto and Bee using that strategy.
> 
> That's not "retarded", that's absolutely downplaying what Nagato managed to do in that match. Kabuto does analyze the battle situation and managed to revive Madara and even deceive Obito by managing to summon ET Madara without Obito knowing despite Kabuto having Zetsu spores attached to his body. That's not retarded. That's actually pretty smart.



It was badly management on Kabuto's part. 

There is a reason Nagato (when in control of himself) *chose* to stay airborne as opposed to go offensively on the ground (even with him being by far the strongest opponent on the field atm)

Kabuto _knew_ Nagato was limited in mobility and _still_ chose to put him on the ground in a rash craze to capture Killer B & Naruto which resulted in him canonically forgetting Itachi was present on the field for a few seconds (allowing Nagato's summons being blinded in the process)

Now I'm not saying that Nagato would have one that fight, but had Kabuto been a) less brash or b) Nagato was allowed to control himself, the fight would have gone down quite differently


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 18, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> It was badly management on Kabuto's part.
> 
> There is a reason Nagato (when in control of himself) *chose* to stay airborne as opposed to go offensively on the ground (even with him being by far the strongest opponent on the field atm)



_Naruto_

 Kabuto was controlling Nagato the entire time and he obviously wasn't being serious until he had Itachi actually attempt Amaterasu or Tsukyomi.

_Naruto_

 To further confirm Kabuto had control over their bodies until Itachi managed to break free from his control. 



> Kabuto _knew_ Nagato was limited in mobility and _still_ chose to put him on the ground in a rash craze to capture Killer B & Naruto which resulted in him canonically forgetting Itachi was present on the field for a few seconds (allowing Nagato's summons being blinded in the process)



 He never forgot about Itachi. He relied on his Kuchiyose Rinnegan to cover Nagato's blindspot, but unfortunately, Itachi's proficiency with ninja tools came in handy as it countered Nagato's Kuchiyose Rinnegan which is impressive considering that's never been done, so it's not like Kabuto would've known about it considering the only character who countered the Rinnegan's shared field of vision up until that point was nobody.

 And actually, Kabuto was never on a raze craze. He separated each one of them as to deliberately defeat each one of them one by one. That's not a raze craze. He was being cautious the entire time. Hell, he managed to immobilize KCM Naruto with his Chameleon despite KCM Naruto's sensing. He managed to use the situation to his advantage in order for KCM Naruto to not have his sensing activated to detect the Chameleon. He also grabbed KCM Naruto once he knew KCM Naruto had nothing to counter Nagato's arsenal which was shown during their fight and furthermore, he still effortlessly grabbed Killer Bee and nearly killed them both. How was Kabuto blinded?



> Now I'm not saying that Nagato would have one that fight, but had Kabuto been a) less brash or b) Nagato was allowed to control himself, the fight would have gone down quite differently



 It would not have as Nagato's mobility hindered him and his most powerful technique which was CT was hard-countered meaning there was nothing Nagato could do against the gang once they were actually together.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The manga has shown us how Hiraishin users fares against sensors when Tobirama tried to use it on Madara. Madara sensed him and effectively avoided him.
> 
> Sure, we can say that Madara is faster than Nagato. However, Nagato doesn't need to dodge Tobirama when the latter tries to blindside him.
> 
> ...



You got me fucked up BRUH like literally fucked up.

Not only can you not even put Sage Madara and Nagato in the same tier in terms of actual reactions but that entire scene with Tobirama was absolutely trash and plot . Not only this but if you actually pay attention to the feat, Tobirama really didn't even use his actual HandSpeed but pure momentum based on the dark lines around his body meaning he was already pre attack when he warped there and was working off of momentum.

Nagatos sensing wouldn't do anything in the situation where he is already tagged. Not at all. A weakned Tobirama's kage Bunshin was canonically able to warp behind Juubito and grab his shoulder before letting his orb explode. He was also able to tag Obito 6 times mid shunshin, and make trump KCM Minato in arm speed. All of which is physically faster than Nagato can even perceive.

I'm not saying Tobirama wins here, but under the circumstance that Tobirama actually tags Nagato? He isn't stopping the FTG blitz. Not at all. Unless you discredit all of Tobirama feats except the one against Madara and then I can do the same and assume Totsuka blitzes him.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 18, 2015)

> The manga has shown us how Hiraishin users fares against sensors when Tobirama tried to use it on Madara. Madara sensed him and effectively avoided him.



Given that Jiraiya told us normal sensing in inferior to normal vision, do you think sage mode sensing and reflexes in the same class as normal sensing?


----------



## Bonly (Mar 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I guess technically, but why would he start with the gedo in a no knowledge situation?



Hell if I know, I don't understand Nagato's mind to good enough to know why he would or wouldn't do it right off the bat. 



> That's not to say I'm impressed by the gedo's soul rip anyway.  Lots of fodder dodged it's rampage,



When the dragon first went out it caught all fodder in it's range then Nagato had the dragon float in the air before he sent it after Hanzo. We didn't see "lots of fodder dodging it's rampage", we saw fodder that was in it's LoS get hit by one attack then Hanzo dodge but that's about it.



> and edo's are connected to Tobirama via their chakra link.  Which means Tobirama can warp them at will without physical contact.



Sure that is possible though then that begs the question, would Tobi with no knowledge of what the dragon can do waste some of his chakra by using Hiraishin to teleport them to safety before they get hit or would he let them get hit while thinking they could come back from any damage while he can use them to gather information? 



> But if Nagato starts with it, and hits both of them, and also covers himself from multiple angles, Tobirama can still set up with a clone rush or something.



Sure but as a sensor Nagato has a good chance to know where the clones could come from and with the ability to use multiple paths at the same time and the Gedo on the field and him not already being marked at the start, Nagato should be able to defend himself from any clone rushes or something if he chose to start with Gedo.



> I don't think Chibaku tensei's core can take two of  if it sucked up the edos.  But that's also assuming Nagato opts to cast his life shortening techniques to deal with zombies of BT+soul rip.



The Edo's would have to stick their hands in their chest and then throw the tags in order to do such so if they got to close to forming sphere then they wouldn't be able to do such. Not only that but Tobi would have to think of using it right off the bat before the core gather too much earth which allowed CT to basically tank 6tails Naruto's Bijuudama as well as Tobi needing to find a way to stay out of the AoE of two of that jutsu going off while also dealing with the pull of CT himself and controlling the duo Edo Tensei ninja which apparently wasn't as good as Part one Orochi's Edo Tensei at the same time.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> No one has ever been able to anticipate or predict ST in the manga,
> SM naruto and KCM Naruto failed to sense it whilst edo itachi and EMS Sasuke failed to see the so called built up through their sharingan
> 
> Tobirmaa is no exception to this either, he isn't sensing it not is he seeing it coming and he isn't reacting to an instant intangible force that will knock him kilometers away and break every bone in his body, and to top it off all the surrounding markings will also get repelled eliminating tobiramas chances of coming at nagato during his interval, not that he is ever getting back up from ST that strong and attacking him before his cool down finishes
> ...



 
what on earth is a boss sized ST??? knocking out the toads means nothing. it couldnt take out base bee or kakashi despite deva clearly stating he wanted to kill kakashi. 

maybe the toads size had something to do with how far they were set. i believe the force of incoming attack is *repelled against the opponent* no bloody different from kaiten. which pushses u away harder, the harder u come at it 

also if we on the subject then u must also be thnking hiashi air palm can 1 shot well most ninja. if u cant agree to that i dont get ur ST hype. pushing away 3 toads isnt more impressive than sending a giant juubi arm flying. considering 4 of those arms tanked bijuudama, multiple kyuubi enhanced air palms and mifune attack 

kishi does spoon feed u just not smart enough to grab that spoon and eat

ST has been used dozens of time. its best feat is knocking out 3 toads. i guess u gonna say deva was holding back against kakashi. nagato was against KCm and Bee 

yh right

as for explosive tags being able to destroy CT core thats entirely possible. the explosion never stops in fact well before the ET get to the core tobirama who is as smart as itachi would know to go for the core. the ET explode that shit. a never ending explosion being pulled into the core would have no issues destroying it. 

as for the escaping CT very simple. create a clone outside its range and swap. its not like kage bunshin users must create the clone right next to themselves. 
i mean all that is needed is for tobirama to create a clone behind nagato which is obviously out of the range of CT or nagato would be pulling himself in


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> You got me fucked up BRUH like literally fucked up.
> 
> Not only can you not even put Sage Madara and Nagato in the same tier in terms of actual reactions but that entire scene with Tobirama was absolutely trash and plot . Not only this but if you actually pay attention to the feat, Tobirama really didn't even use his actual HandSpeed but pure momentum based on the dark lines around his body meaning he was already pre attack when he warped there and was working off of momentum.
> 
> ...



I never talked about reacting to Tobirama while being tagged. I don't think Tobirama will tag him before dying.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Given that Jiraiya told us normal sensing in inferior to normal vision, do you think sage mode sensing and reflexes in the same class as normal sensing?



I've never seen much of a difference, actually. But i see no problem with sensing Tobirama with normal sensing, even if it needs to be helped by Linked Vision.


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 19, 2015)

Well, If Tobirama tags Nagato, it's over.

But using Hiraishin through Kunais, I don't think that's going to be enough. Nagato has sensor, and he can probably sense the enemy's chakra signature in the Kunais, no?

But even if he can't, while using the shared vision he has his Shinra Tensei. Nagato has no reflexes or body speed to dodge someone like Tobirama, but since Shinra Tensei use is almost instaneously, it's hard for Tobirama to take him.

But I'm sure about this: If Tobirama has enough time to analyse the Shinra Tensei delay, Nagato's almost fucked. He needs to take Tobirama down quickly as possible. 

That's why I made this comparation. I see both with great chances, because even knowing that Nagato's powerfull, Tobirama's skilled and inteligent enough to give him a lot of problems.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2015)

I Think Tobirama is around healthy Itachi's level. He is not surely in the level of a EMS user, as he was not much of a threat to Madara, and was the rival of Izuna, an MS user. He might be a bit above.

Nagato, on the other hand, is above the level of any MS user. Don't know if confortably, but i dare to say it. However, Hiraishin is a pain, but it's not as advanced as Minato's. And even then, i don't see Minato in the level of Nagato either.

Not without KCM or BM, wich puts him above.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

Tobirama sucks. Dude can't defeat some fodders. However, he is stronger than MS user(s?).


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama sucks. Dude can't defeat some fodders. However, he is stronger than MS user(s?).



Do you really think that?

Izuna was said to be on Madara's Mangekyou level. Tobirama won against him.

And he didn't lose for "some fodders". Kinkaku's squad dude, they are powerfull as hell!

He is not on Nagato's level, but he has a lot of changes in winning this match!


----------



## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

> Do you really think that?


Yes.


> *Izuna was said to be on Madara's Mangekyou level*. Tobirama won against him.


No


> And he didn't lose for "some fodders". Kinkaku's squad dude, they are powerfull as hell!


I don't see how they are different from the other fodders. 



> He is not on Nagato's level, but he has a lot of changes in winning this match!



Don't think so...


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 19, 2015)

People should not bring up the kin gin thing as a pro or con because it will always look bad and faulty.

"He is weak cause he lost against them" yet we have no real idea how it went down tobirama could have had near zero chakra for all we know.

"They are strong you can't blame him kin gin and 18 no names so strong!" yeah not foolin anyone i hope people don't think tobirama would have a problem with darui and chuunin level back up. The fact kin gin had edo buffs make it worse.

Can we please find some new shit to bring up when talking about tobirama?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

When it comes to hussain tobirama is a reoccuring nightmare for him 
its best to ignore him. 

but truth is as for this match nagato really has the tools to win. 

normally against other opponents tobirama use of ET would be hard to deal with, but nagato can deal with them just fine


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 19, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No knowledge is worse for Tobirama,* though to be frank he still has a chance if Nagato fucks around*.
> 
> FTG is one the most dangerous Ninjutsu in the manga, if there is a tag near him at all Nagato will be killed by Tobirama.
> 
> ...



When has he ever done that?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

what nagato? putting his hand out? erm the 2 times he used ST 
not like he must 
but it seems to be a habit of his


----------



## Meruem (Mar 19, 2015)

Human is a very strong counter to Edo Tensei.  Also, without knowledge, it's far too easy for Tobirama to get pulled in by bansho tennin and have his soul ripped out or have a chakra rod shoved into his eye socket.

I think people here are focusing a bit too much on levels of power and not enough on how the fight would actually play out.  Without knowledge, Pein is going to roll over almost anyone because he has a good amount of one hit kill moves as well as a counter to virtually every fighting style.  In order to avoid those you need knowledge on how they work.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

hirashin will always and forever prevent BT
with or without knowledge. i mean its an auto counter to it. why mention it?

nagato isnt going to be laying a hand on tobirama. however he can overwhelm tobirama which is how he wins

i dont see how someone with the best escape technique is going to be getting a rod up his eye socket or having his soul ripped out


----------



## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> People should not bring up the kin gin thing as a pro or con because it will always look bad and faulty.
> 
> "He is weak cause he lost against them" yet we have no real idea how it went down tobirama could have had near zero chakra for all we know.
> 
> ...



The manga has ended. There is no new shit. We can only work with what we have.


----------



## Meruem (Mar 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hirashin will always and forever prevent BT
> with or without knowledge. i mean its an auto counter to it. why mention it?
> 
> nagato isnt going to be laying a hand on tobirama. however he can overwhelm tobirama which is how he wins
> ...



Where would his destination for hiraishin be?  Also, Bansho Tennin is still quite useful against the Edo Tensei zombies in combination with human's soul ripping if we assume that Tobirama will set up tags around the battlefield before BT is used or that he has them placed beforehand (not sure if OP wants us to assume that any tags he has placed will already be there at the start of the battle).  Once the Edo Tensei zombies are gone, Tobirama's most valuable tool for facing 6 opponents is gone.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The manga has ended. There is no new shit. We can only work with what we have.



He has feats he performed on panel. So why resort to that same old flashback tale that has no panels about what happened in detail at the time it happened.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

His feats were along side other characters that are superior to him. With the benefits of ET as well from regenerating the body and the chakra. Those abilities he showed on panel ARE his same abilities that he had when he was defeated.

It makes no sense that Kishi values his level to be below Kin/Gin, and that we should put him above the likes of Nagato who almost killed Naruto and B in no time even though each of them is stronger than Tobirama. 

Returning to his feats against obito, most of the feats he showed are really only teleporting the others to do the attacks. Even some of that were with help as well for them to be successful.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> His feats were along side other characters that are superior to him. With the benefits of ET as well from regenerating the body and the chakra. Those abilities he showed on panel ARE his same abilities that he had when he was defeated.


But they still are on-panel feats we can  to come to conclusions on his performance in the dome. Better than unseen flashbacks. As for benefits if that's the case we should not value any ET performance. So from now on muu, gengetsu, A, rasa etc are all featless because they didn't perform while alive. He may have had those abilities but we have no under what circumstances he died. Just like hashirama and other legends.



> It makes no sense that Kishi values his level to be below Kin/Gin, and that we should put him above the likes of Nagato who almost killed Naruto and B in no time even though each of them is stronger than Tobirama.


He is not above nagato he is below him only a couple of people here put him on nagato's level. 



> Returning to his feats against obito, most of the feats he showed are really only teleporting the others to do the attacks. Even some of that were with help as well for them to be successful.


Well for someone who mainly uses ftg that is all he really needs. Just like he can teleport others to do attacks he can simply teleport himself to do attacks. This isn't hard.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

> [=blackguyinpinksuit;53146926]But they still are on-panel feats we can  to come to conclusions on his performance in the dome. Better than unseen flashbacks. As for benefits if that's the case we should not value any ET performance. So from now on muu, gengetsu, A, rasa etc are all featless because they didn't perform while alive. He may have had those abilities but we have no under what circumstances he died. Just like hashirama and other legends.


I did not say they have to preform them while alive. Those kages you mentioned were fighting by themselves. What I mean is the teamwork did improve the overall quality of their work. On other words, what they did in a team is not necessarily doable if they were by themselves. 

In Tobirama's case we know who killed him, and we have seen their abilities on-panel as well. We know Hashirama got killed in the War, but we don't know who they are, or even how many. Anther example, the 3rd Raikage got killed off-panel. However, that death is NOT used against him, but rather to his advantage. Kishi wanted to show how great of a kage he is, so he fought 10,000 for 3 days. 

If Kishi wanted the same impression be used in Tobirama's case, then he would have used number over 20. As you can see, both got killed off-panel, but they left different impression.  


> He is not above nagato he is below him only a couple of people here put him on nagato's level.


Good, and since we agree that he is going to lose, then there is really no need for all this argument. The roads differ, and the end is the same. 


> Well for someone who mainly uses ftg that is all he really needs. Just like he can teleport others to do attacks he can simply teleport himself to do attacks. This isn't hard.



Teleporting by itself is not necessarily enough tho, and I believe there are many factors that should be taken in considerations. That's why although both Tobirama and Minato can teleport, but the result in their fights were hugely different during the wars in their times....


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

Meruem said:


> Where would his destination for hiraishin be?  Also, Bansho Tennin is still quite useful against the Edo Tensei zombies in combination with human's soul ripping if we assume that Tobirama will set up tags around the battlefield before BT is used or that he has them placed beforehand (not sure if OP wants us to assume that any tags he has placed will already be there at the start of the battle).  Once the Edo Tensei zombies are gone, Tobirama's most valuable tool for facing 6 opponents is gone.



erm anywhere outside its range. if KCM and killer bee can shunshin and avoid it 
tobirama should have no issues getting out of range with hirashin

again BT happens, tobirama creates a clone. and swaps with the clone. the end BT avoided. 

or he is being pulled, once nagato is at point blank range. tobirama lets go of his kunai. and he appears behind nagato

this is 1 on 1. nagato vs tobirama. why on earth didnt u read the OP?


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> what on earth is a boss sized ST???


the ST that one shotted the boss toads 



> knocking out the toads means nothing.


Uhh yes it does, 
durability of boss toads >>>>>>> durability of tobirama, so he gets wrecked



> *it couldnt take out base bee or kakashi despite deva clearly stating he wanted to kill kakashi. *



if youre claiming that those ST have the same power as the one used against the boss toads then you need to get ur head checked, 
ur jjust proving your stupidity here, 
first of all, the ST that was used was just a flat out force, 
nagato has already showed the ability to pinpoint all of his force onto a target, which yields much much better results, 

claiming that ST used on kakashi was the same as the one used against the toads is a joke, 
and if thats ur basis than im not wasting my time, 



> maybe the toads size had something to do with how far they were set. i believe the force of incoming attack is *repelled against the opponent*



Wrong, the toads attacked, but failed, since deva evaded their attacks and only then he used ST, 
toads attacking him before and stopping had nothing to do with the power of ST, 
it was pinpointed on them and hence why it one shotted them,
ttobirama gets the same treatment, only difference is that he gets pasted 



> no bloody different from kaiten. which pushses u away harder, the harder u come at it


No it is bloody different, 
the stronger the force the further it pushes you away, its only that simple, 
nothing like kaiten, 
nice try though 



> also if we on the subject then u must also be thnking hiashi air palm can 1 shot well most ninja.


Bringing irrelevant things as a form of downplaying devas feat doesnt count as an argument, 



> if u cant agree to that i dont get ur ST hype. pushing away 3 toads isnt more impressive than sending a giant juubi arm flying. considering 4 of those arms tanked bijuudama, multiple kyuubi enhanced air palms and mifune attack


Does it need to be strong enough to repel the juubi arms to eradicate tobirama? No it doesnt
so i suggest you to stop downplaying feats

pushing away and one shotting not one but 3 boss toads, with one of them being able to combat the fkn one tails, and hold down the kyuubi, is definitely impressive, 

especially when we consider the fact that this time its nagato using the force, and would pinpoint it on a much less durable entity, so he gets pasted 



> kishi does spoon feed u just not smart enough to grab that spoon and eat



This is coming from a guy who thinks that preta has no limits bcz it wasnt stated in the manga,
yet says that nagato absorbing one TBB would go numb and left immobilised against killer bee, yet on the other hand says that nagato can beat BM Minato, a much superior character to bee, 



> ST has been used dozens of time. its best feat is knocking out 3 toads. i guess u gonna say deva was holding back against kakashi. nagato was against KCm and Bee



Its best feat is flattening konoha despite the force being all spread out to the whole village, 
and that was from deva path, let alone nagato, let alone nagato focusing all that force into a single point,

never said holding back, however there is a difference in power between each ST, 
nice try on countering though, 



> yh right
> 
> as for explosive tags being able to destroy CT core thats entirely possible. the explosion never stops in fact well before the ET get to the core tobirama who is as smart as itachi would know to go for the core.



Explosive tags are not busting CT, when we consider the fact that tobirama and his edos are drawn in by CT, so if he uses it, tobirama dies, 

being smart doesnt equate to being able to counter, 
itachi was smart yet he needed naruto and bees help to counter CT, 

funny thing is that CT is not needed at all, 



> the ET explode that shit. a never ending explosion being pulled into the core would have no issues destroying it.


Yet the explosion clearly stopped, yet GKF still ended after a certain amount of time, 
so its not really a never ending explosion, 



> as for the escaping CT very simple. create a clone outside its range and swap. *its not like kage bunshin users must create the clone right next to themselves*.



clones are formed from the original, they need to be formed nexxt to themselves, you cant use KB and form a clone thats kilometers away, no one has done that, and nothing implies that you can, so NO, he is not getting out of its range, his markings are drawn up, and he gets done for



> i mean all that is needed is for tobirama to create a clone behind nagato which is obviously out *of the range of CT or nagato would be pulling himself in*


Yeah, obviously NO, 
nagato himself is not affected by CT at all, that is just flat out dumb, 
nagato has already showed himself to be capable of who to affect when he uses his deva path powers,

so far the only argument i have seen from you is that since kakashi survived a normal ST, than tobirama survives all ST regardless of how big it is, 
and the rest is all just downplaying of large scale STs, and bringing completely irrelevant things as a means to undermine my post when in actuality it just makes you look like a fool


----------



## Trojan (Mar 20, 2015)

> Uhh yes it does,
> durability of boss toads >>>>>>> durability of tobirama, so he gets wrecked



The bigger you're, the stronger the fall is. 
Tobirama won't get as much damage as they did.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The bigger you're, the stronger the fall is.
> Tobirama won't get as much damage as they did.



Yeah, but the toads are alot sturdier and heavier than tobirama is, meaning that it would require alot more force to push them that far, 

for tobirama he gets pushed back to an enormous distance where the force of gravity would still be enough to break his bones, 

the above argument is only valid, if the targets durability is the same which clearly isnt the case so tobirama gets pasted


----------



## Trojan (Mar 20, 2015)

Such a thing never happened with human characters as far as I can tell. Kakashi, Naruto, Choji, Choza...etc
all survived.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> the ST that one shotted the boss toads
> 
> 
> Uhh yes it does,
> ...



yh whatever
why didnt deva kill kakashi with it then?
so deva was holding back for the lolz?

odd how in all ur BS post u dont mention how easily KCM naruto and bee avoided nagato ST. it did nothing to them 

boss toads arent more durable than tobirama. why would they be? they are bigger good for them. 

are they more durable than kisame? or jugo ? or tsunade? they arent. why assume that?

fact still remains kakashi tanked 4 ST while deva path was trying to kill him. 
Bee did the same. why didnt nagato send him flying and break every bone in his body? with his magical boss sized ST? 

1 shotting toads =/= 1 shotting ninja. nothing in common. Ei chopped off hachibi horn it doesnt mean he is going to be splitting ninja in half. 

anywayz u just wanking ST. which so far failed to kill kakashi despite being hit point blank twice

*kakashi and gai apparently found counters to it. it cant be that great *

bee is slower than tobirama. he avoided ST tobirama will do the same

 what a silly child 
GFK stopped because obito negated it.  
isnt that what omyoton does?? it did negate amaterasu while it was burning. why wont it do the same to GFK?? thats common sense


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2015)

Fukusaku said the more power someone uses, the bigger the cooldown.

Obviously ST can be stronger and weaker. If it was based on weight, increasing the power, like Fukusaku stated wouldn't be even needed to mention.

The boss toads were sent flying far and hard not because of their weight, but because of the power Deva used to fodderize them.They fell harder because of the powerful push, not because of their size. At least, the most part of the damage was made by the initial hit and the speed at they were launched.

Tobirama would outright lose the battle if he is hit that hard.

Choza was almost dead, Kakashi was left out of battle the moment Deva Path felt cornered and decided to end the battle.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Fukusaku said the more power someone uses, the bigger the cooldown.
> 
> Obviously ST can be stronger and weaker. If it was based on weight, increasing the power, like Fukusaku stated wouldn't be even needed to mention.
> 
> ...



ok. 
but why would he be hit? KCM naruto and killer bee avoided it just fine. with ease i must add
why imply a sneaky fellow like tobirama who waits to strike would get hit 

my point is more often than not. ST is used and the victim gets up just fine. why keep using such weak ST?? 

and if the cool down is longer the stronger the ST as kishi did state then if tobirama avoids a large scale one, somethign perfectly reasonable then nagato wont be able to use deva powers for a while

as for flatening konoha as my dear friend argus mentioned thats impressive, doesnt mean it would do more damage to say Sandiame raikage than FRS did for example

i just think ST is hyped to no end despite its best feat taknig out toads which most high level techniques can do with nasty ease. 

Take for example Ei chop, he can chop through them toads yet cant even kick through gaara little gourd sand


----------



## Trojan (Mar 20, 2015)

> but why would he be hit? KCM naruto and killer bee avoided it just fine. with ease i must add



where did they avoid it?


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ok.
> but why would he be hit? KCM naruto and killer bee avoided it just fine. with ease i must add
> why imply a sneaky fellow like tobirama who waits to strike would get hit



They didn't avoided it. Naruto came from off panel, he might've not been targeted by ST and only Bee, or he might've been hit. Just like Itachi, who didn't appear after some time.

But i think that ST was to separate the three.

 Aside from that, it depends how Nagato uses it and if Tobirama can see it, because Shinra Tensei is invisible.

He can be hit if he tries to attack Nagato like Kakashi did, because the jutsu activates instantly and he cannot know when it's gonna be used.





> my point is more often than not. ST is used and the victim gets up just fine. why keep using such weak ST??



Actually, i don't know. It's understandable with Naruto, as Nagato was probably taking it easy to avoid killing him, because with Choza, for example, he didn't have mercy and with Bee we can say he wanted (Kabuto, assuming he knew what he was doing) to absorb his chakra and rejuvenate Nagato.

It's all i can say about that. Because he actually showed he could use more power on the attack, and was stated as well.



> and if the cool down is longer the stronger the ST as kishi did state then if tobirama avoids a large scale one, somethign perfectly reasonable then nagato wont be able to use deva powers for a while



Well, yeah. However, the boss sized one didn't seem to affect him that much. But i don't know if he had to wait more than 5 seconds after that one, but i don't think he has to wait much.


> as for flatening konoha as my dear friend argus mentioned thats impressive, doesnt mean it would do more damage to say Sandiame raikage than FRS did for example



ST and FRS have different mechanichs. ST is pure blunt force, while FRS has cutting power. But if you see, Kakuzu was alive when he was hit by Naruto's FRS directly and Kakashi had to finish him off. I don't think he would be alive after eating CST.



> i just think ST is hyped to no end despite its best feat taknig out toads which most high level techniques can do with nasty ease.
> 
> Take for example Ei chop, he can chop through them toads yet cant even kick through gaara little gourd sand



Yes, most high level techniques can do that. The difference with ST is that it's like Amaterasu, for example. We don't know when Nagato can use it, if he wants, he doesn't need to say a word to use it.

One mistake and Nagato's enemy will eat a blast strong enough to send giant beings very far with a hit. And if you are covered in a shroud to protect yourself, say good bye to it, as ST will erase the ninjutsu either way and you'll be fucked.

I think it's more powerful and useful than Ei's chop and Gaara's gourd sand.

Coupled that, the ST that destroyed the toads, was used by a weaker beign than Edo Nagato, whose attacks were in another level of Pain's, and who is weaker than living Nagato.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> They didn't avoided it. Naruto came from off panel, he might've not been targeted by ST and only Bee, or he might've been hit. Just like Itachi, who didn't appear after some time.



bee was 100% fine. any proof it was used to separate them? VS takign them out 



> But i think that ST was to separate the three.



ref to above 



> Aside from that, it depends how Nagato uses it and if Tobirama can see it, because Shinra Tensei is invisible.



true. however bee was able to avoid it. 



> He can be hit if he tries to attack Nagato like Kakashi did, because the jutsu activates instantly and he cannot know when it's gonna be used.



tobirama fights with clones. unlikely his real body would be getting hit 






> Actually, i don't know. It's understandable with Naruto, as Nagato was probably taking it easy to avoid killing him, because with Choza, for example, he didn't have mercy and with Bee we can say he wanted (Kabuto, assuming he knew what he was doing) to absorb his chakra and rejuvenate Nagato.
> 
> It's all i can say about that. Because he actually showed he could use more power on the attack, and was stated as well.




i can agree. however why not use ST to break all his bones. makes it easier to capture wouldnt u say?



> Well, yeah. However, the boss sized one didn't seem to affect him that much. But i don't know if he had to wait more than 5 seconds after that one, but i don't think he has to wait much.
> 
> 
> ST and FRS have different mechanichs. ST is pure blunt force, while FRS has cutting power. But if you see, Kakuzu was alive when he was hit by Naruto's FRS directly and Kakashi had to finish him off. I don't think he would be alive after eating CST.



i dont see why kakuzu wont survive it. most people in konoha did. didnt they? if kakuzu can survive a number of poison wind blades slicing him. sure one impact force would be handled just fine 



> Yes, most high level techniques can do that. The difference with ST is that it's like Amaterasu, for example. We don't know when Nagato can use it, if he wants, he doesn't need to say a word to use it.
> 
> One mistake and Nagato's enemy will eat a blast strong enough to send giant beings very far with a hit. And if you are covered in a shroud to protect yourself, say good bye to it, as ST will erase the ninjutsu either way and you'll be fucked.
> 
> ...



yes but my point is sending boss toads flying doesnt suddenly make it super strong. hence my reference with hiashi air palm. it sent a juubi tail flying but it doesnt remotely mean if gai or anyone else got hit by it they would turn to red paste. 

i think people overhype taking down the toads. which again isnt anything that great


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> bee was 100% fine. any proof it was used to separate them? VS takign them out
> 
> 
> 
> ref to above



Because that was what happened. The three of them were separated.



> true. however bee was able to avoid it.



Bee didn't avoid it. He was blasted away.


> tobirama fights with clones. unlikely his real body would be getting hit



Yeah, but Nagato is a sensor. And considering that clones are weaker than the real, Nagato has linked vision and is proficient enough to counter Bee, who's able to keep up with MS users (that are generally in the level of Tobirama) in close combat, i don't see clones doing much or needed to be taken down by Shinra Tensei. Not when Nagato here is notably stronger than his Edo version and can use other ninjutsu.


> i can agree. however why not use ST to break all his bones. makes it easier to capture wouldnt u say?




Yeah, it's a bit inconsistent. Or he was afraid of killing him or just an inconsistensy. But i, myself, cannot say it was because he couldn't, because Naruto is not more durable than even Choza, probably, and Choza and the more durable summons couldn't take the hit.

If you see, Shinra Tensei didn't kill people that were meant to live (like Tsunade's punches as well, only used on monsters or Edos), but with fodders or not very relevant characters like Choza, it helped greatly. Even Kakashi was left unable to move by one.



> i dont see why kakuzu wont survive it. most people in konoha did. didnt they? if kakuzu can survive a number of poison wind blades slicing him. sure one impact force would be handled just fine



Kakuzu survived that because he didn't have organs. The other in Konoha, the ones that survived, only did it because Tsunade was healing them and protecting them with Katsuyu The Forbidden One, and even then, the CST didn't hit them directly. It hit the center of the village and the people were protected by the destruction it created.

A direct one would kill most shinobis if they are hit.




> yes but my point is sending boss toads flying doesnt suddenly make it super strong. hence my reference with hiashi air palm. it sent a juubi tail flying but it doesnt remotely mean if gai or anyone else got hit by it they would turn to red paste.
> 
> i think people overhype taking down the toads. which again isnt anything that great



Well, i do think that Hiashi's air palm would cause damage, but Air Palm is air. But Shinra Tensei is superior. The boss sized ST should damage badly anybody with average durability. Gai might be too resilient and durable to be turned into red paste, however, i see him badly damaged as well.

It's not taking down the toads that's amazing. It's having enough power to send three gigantic frogs, one that could take a Bijuu's attack, flying amazingly far. An that not even being all of Nagato's strenght, just a glimpse.

Therefore, imagine a stronger one from a stronger man


----------



## Veracity (Mar 20, 2015)

Tobirama at MS level based on what? Him being able to casually take down an MS user in his younger years ? The years where he was massively inferior to his hokage times...

Hokage Tobirama is far superior to MS Izuna and just because he is inferior to EMS Madara doesn't mean he's still on an MS level.... The gap between EMS Madara and any MS user is enormous. EMS Madara could take on sets of MS Sasuke and MS Itachi at the same time and still come out victorious, there just happens to be a big gap between the two. Tobirama in between the gap of MS and EMS, and his CQC ability is actually above Hashirama and Madara's and is actually far above the level of Killer Bee. So saying that Tobirama is MS level, and because KB overwhelmed an MS user that Tobirama = KB, is a bad argument...


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2015)

Mmm? I never said Tobirama was = KB. Just that a Kage Bunshin is far from bothering Nagato. As strong as Tobirama could be, a KB won't be stronger than Killer Bee (not even close, actually), and Nagato would dispatch it with minimal effort. 

EMS Madara would also defeat Itachi + Sasuke + Tobirama if he desires. I know the gap is huge, but i see him around that level (Around Healthy Itachi's level), unless he has someone tagged, wich makes him or Minato quite the problem.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Mmm? I never said Tobirama was = KB. Just that a Kage Bunshin is far from bothering Nagato. As strong as Tobirama could be, a KB won't be stronger than Killer Bee (not even close, actually), and Nagato would dispatch it with minimal effort.
> 
> EMS Madara would also defeat Itachi + Sasuke + Tobirama if he desires. I know the gap is huge, but i see him around that level (Around Healthy Itachi's level), unless he has someone tagged, wich makes him or Minato quite the problem.



In terms to a threat compared to Nagato?, He's far superior to healthy Itachi. As Itachi and him aren't even in the same speed class. 

His KB aren't superior to killer bee, but are still faster and can be used to land marks on Nagato. His CQC ability is above killer bee. I actually don't see Nagato dispatching a clone that can warp with a thought and lay hands on Juubito; quite easily that is.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

*


LostSelf said:



Because that was what happened. The three of them were separated.



Bee didn't avoid it. He was blasted away.

Click to expand...

*


LostSelf said:


> so no proof then? . they were separated yes. but was that nagato plan?? cuz that was an attack. was it not. why not knock them down and capture them? wasnt that kabuto plan?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mercurial (Mar 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so all that just tells me tobirama can also tank ST the same way. wow u got a kakashi hard on though. 80% of your post about a character not even in the match up



You said something canonically not true, so I had to correct you. I agree that Tobirama can definitely tank at the very least a couple of Shinra Tensei (not CST, obviously, but in that case the gravitational force would push him so far that he could make in time to teleport away with Hiraishin before he impacts with the environment). Remember that Shinra Tensei's gravity doesn't do damage itself, what damages it the impact because of the powerful force that swats the opponent away.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

thanks for the clarification Raikiri 
considering bee avoided very casually nagato ST which btw was fairly large scale i dont see why tobirama cant avoid a larger one. oh and btw if tobirama is sent flying. he creates a clone behind nagato and swaps with that clone
thus negating ST.  that should work


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> thanks for the clarification Raikiri
> considering bee avoided very casually nagato ST which btw was fairly large scale i dont see why tobirama cant avoid a larger one. oh and btw if tobirama is sent flying. he creates a clone behind nagato and swaps with that clone
> thus negating ST.  that should work



Hm, I don't see Shinra Tensei as offensive jutsu but a defensive one.

However, I don't see Tobirama surviving a Shinra Tensei version like the one who reppeled the frogs or stronger... Also, Bee is one of the mosts resistant characters in the serie, I would say that him, Sandaime Raikage, Yondaime Raikage, Hashirama, Madara and Tsunade might be the strongers in that area.

Tobirama's squishy target... 

But again, his intelect, speed and S/T ninjutsu can be a problem. Madara after stabbing Tobirama said  that if he were alive (not an Edo Tensei), he would probably kill him on that situation. And it was Madara, not some random.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> Hm, I don't see Shinra Tensei as offensive jutsu but a defensive one.
> 
> However, I don't see Tobirama surviving a Shinra Tensei version like the one who reppeled the frogs or stronger... Also, Bee is one of the mosts resistant characters in the serie, I would say that him, Sandaime Raikage, Yondaime Raikage, Hashirama, Madara and Tsunade might be the strongers in that area.
> 
> ...



what makes the frogs more durable than tobirama? go on ill wait 

tobirama will not be attacking nagato with his body. not when he can use ET and clones

he a sneaky type fighter. so sneaky in fact that he invented kage bunshin

yh base bee isnt much more durable than tobirama. no reason to think he is. and he was just fine after ST 

the last bit of your post is made up. 

I agree nagato wins but i just dont get the ST hype
sending frogs flying doesnt translate to being able to do the same to ninja at a much higher level

when were those frogs said to be super durable?


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Such a thing never happened with human characters as far as I can tell. Kakashi, Naruto, Choji, Choza...etc
> all survived.



choza died, protecting choji, and kakashi was on his knees after a minisucle ST, 
naruto was never hit with a strong ST, so nice try, 

tobirama gets raped by CST, and thats that


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 20, 2015)

I can see Tobirama tagging * Prime * Nagato before he even decides to use CST. 

 But if Tobirama gets hit by CST, it's really all over.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 20, 2015)

Who said Choza died? 



> naruto was never hit with a strong ST, so nice try,


lol, what? 

I don't see why would Nagato use "CST" against Tobirama honestly, but my perspective in Tobirama's level is clear, and that he is below Kin/Gin's level. So, I am not arguing that he might win here against Nagato, but only point some points that I don't think are good enough.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yh whatever
> why didnt deva kill kakashi with it then?
> so deva was holding back for the lolz?


He did kill kakashi, especially when kakashi was on his fkn kneees after the minisucle ST that he used on him, so try again,

the bold seems like denial, and your only real argument from you here 



> *odd how in all ur BS post* u dont mention how easily KCM naruto and bee avoided nagato ST. it did nothing to them


ohh the irony, and the insults from you, just goes to show how butthurt youre getting now,
do you really want me to quote all your  previous crap to show how wrong you really are most of the times? 

and LOl at your example, they didnt evade shit, they survived it, and it wasnt pinpointd on them either, just some pure blunt force, which was just a regular ST from nagato,  
completely different things, 



> [B]boss toads arent more durable than tobirama. why would they be? they are bigger good for them.[/B]


And this is why no one here should waste time with you
so according to you if someone is bigger than something, then they are less durable, 
so by this logic, a normal ninja is more durable than Kyuubi or PS, since they are smaller than them, 

great work pal 




> are they more durable than kisame? or jugo ? or tsunade? they arent. why assume that?


Bunta tanked shukakus forest blowing wind bullets, 
they are certainly more durable than the likes of tobirama 
not seeing why youre bringing kisame or  tsunade, when they have nothing to do with this matcch up at all, 

and whats funnier is that tsunade doesnt have  any special durability, she has special regeneration so she recovers from any damage dealt, 

again, fail on your post 



> fact still remains kakashi tanked 4 ST while deva path was trying to kill him.


Kakashi tanked one minisucle ST, and on the second ST he was brought doown on his knees, 

having a killing intent doesnt mean that you immediately start with your best move,

sasuke had a killing intent against naruto, did he immediately start with BPS? No he didnt, 
naruto had a killing intent against pein did  he start with FRS? no he didnt, 
madara had a killing intent against hashirama, did he immediately start with Iso Susanoo? no  he didnt 

''killing intent'' being your argument only proves your incomepetence here 



> Bee did the same. why didnt nagato send him flying and break every bone in his body? with his magical boss sized ST?


he was controlled by kabuto, who instead absorbed his shroud and resorted to shooting his skull with a missile 



> 1 shotting toads =/= 1 shotting ninja. nothing in common. Ei chopped off hachibi horn it doesnt mean he is going to be splitting ninja in half.


Yes, if he lands that chop on a ninja with far less durability than he is getting chopped much worse than the hachibi, 



> anywayz u just wanking ST. which so far failed to kill kakashi despite being hit point blank twice


Great counter man, again welll done

i provided counters for your downplaying, and you resort to saying that im wanking ST, again just goes to show your incompetence 

atleast you stopped saying that kakashi tanked it 4 times, so i believe thats an indirect concession


> *kakashi and gai apparently found counters to it. it cant be that great *


Can you name them please? 
saying you can counter something doesnt mean that its a counter, 

SA formed doton wwalls as a counter for V3 juubidama? ddid it counter that? 
No it didnt, 



> bee is slower than tobirama. he avoided ST tobirama will do the same


He didnt avoid shit, he survived it, completely different things 



> what a silly child


And this is coming from? 


> GFK stopped because obito negated it.
> isnt that what omyoton does?? it did negate amaterasu while it was burning. why wont it do the same to GFK?? thats common sense


no theres a limit to the explosions, 
it doesnt just go on forever, 
obito in his V1 state does NOT even have onmyoudon, he only blocked it with his TSB, 
so the explosion wasnt negated, 

nice try though,


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Who said Choza died?
> 
> 
> lol, what?


Yep choza died, 

I don't see why would Nagato use "CST" against Tobirama honestly, [/QUOTE]
A pinpointed large scale ST would rape tobirama, 
CST woud just paste him, whether you think he uses it or not is entirely up to you 



> but my perspective in Tobirama's level is clear, and that he is below Kin/Gin's level. So, I am not arguing that he might win here against Nagato, but only point some points that I don't think are good enough.



Lol still grasping at straws are you? 
Tobirama clowns any one of the level of Kin/Gin, 
he is pretty much on par with Base Minato, 

you not admitting it is just denying the manga


----------



## Joakim3 (Mar 20, 2015)

Oh the usual _Shinra Tensei_ debate

Tendo literally one shotted Hinata, Chozu (a bigger and stronger version of Choji bar BM) & Shima (a sage) with fodder _Shinra Tensei_, flattened Kakashi as well when Nagato decided to end things with a bigger _Shinra Tensei_ and was popping SM clones with minimal effort

If you honestly think a prime living Nagato can't put lethal force behind ST to the point where he can snap Tobirama's body like tooth picks than everyone might as well agree to disagree (especially in the manner and distance Tobirama would be attacking him)

_Shinra Tensei_ works via rapid gravity shift, and does it's damage via blunt force damage due to acceleration  

What people fail to realize is that being accelerated rapidly is _just_ as damaging as being decelerated rapidly as at the end of day, each exert the same G-force on the body (with on being positive + while the other being -). It's why if you were strapped to a hyper sonic rail rocket you be reduced to fucking pudding do to the 100's of G forces you'd experince


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 21, 2015)

chouza didnt die. Tsunade told chouji to take him to the hospital. try harder Argus 

@joakim that nice and all but killer bee got hit twice by it. didnt even bother to mention it as being a problem 

further more kakashi and gai said *obito paths wont even waste their time with such techniques since they have counters to all of them*

doesnt speak highly of said techniques if u ask me

especially when kakashi took ST three times at point blank. considering deva was trying to kill him.

@Argus u are clearly an imbecile 
i never said the frogs are bigger so they are less durable u moron. i said why would being bigger make them more durable. to which u fail to answer and decide to act in ur usual foolish ways


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 21, 2015)

> Tobirama would outright lose the battle if he is hit that hard.



If Deva chooses what power level his standard ST is, he is the worst judge of voltage ever, and I have zero reason to believe he's going to get it right this time over every other time he didn't.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks pirate
like i dont dispute the feat of sending toads far away
but why does that translate to him being able to 1 shot tobirama or other ninja

since when were the toads said to be more durable ?

i would like to point out thats its *completely out of character * for nagato to use ST capable of breaking bones. Considering both times he used it revived it wasnt worth shit. 
With deva 3 times on kakashi and those couldnt kill him

So why do people assume nagato would be using one capable of killing tobirama off the bat?

by the time nagato resorts to his stronger versions. tobirama would have marked the battle field

thats what he does. when he returned juubito orb to him. u would notice that before comign to face juubito he had already marked somewhere far off as a safety net

the did the same thing again when he saved naruto after the god tree rendered him useless. he had already marked somewhere far off and thats how he got naruto to safety 

So unless nagato uses a massive ST from the start St would not be doing much


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Argus u are clearly an imbecile
> i never said the frogs are bigger so they are less durable u moron. i said why would being bigger make them more durable. to which u fail to answer and decide to act in ur usual foolish ways



concession accepted, 
you have yet again failed to counter anything at all, 
and instead of actually acknowledging defeat or atleast providing some arguments, you resort to using insults yet again, and would continue to spout your usual ridiculous claims which have been refuted countless times


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 21, 2015)

Prove the frogs are more durable 
since u think they are
go on ill wait 

you making baseless claims. what makes them more durable? 

am not insulting u, far from it. just making accurate observations

btw fanfic king. choza didnt die. read the manga again 

and killer bee didnt barely survive nagato ST. it wasnt even worth him mentioning it. it pushed him back and he countered attacked. thats all that happened


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 21, 2015)

One of these days I should respond to Bonly.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 21, 2015)

The only thing i find unfair in most posts is the ST hype. it took out 3 frogs therefore it can GG most ninja
yet Air palm dont get that. Despite it knocking back something several times larger than the frogs. 

What people also dont realize is that if nagato sees ET he isnt going to use ST as he knows that wont defeat them 

he is more likely to try and chakra rod them or rip their souls out. which could make him vulnerable 

to tobirama explosive tag jutsu or hirashingiri

Like i said though nagato wins but its far from an easy match


----------



## Heisenber (Mar 21, 2015)

Nagato is much better than Tobirama. 

Nidaime has no answer to Chou Shinra Tensei and he can't protect his tenseis from getting out their souls through Gedo Mazou dragons. 

In fact, Tobirama has NOTHING that can be dangerous for Nagato. Hiraishin Giri is stoped at Shurados mechanical Body, beyond Shinra Tensei.

He can't surprise Nagato cause of his shared vision and sensoryal power.

So, Nagato wins...


----------



## Trojan (Mar 21, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Yep choza died,
> 
> 
> Tobirama clowns any one of the level of Kin/Gin,
> ...



- No he did not. It would be useless of Tsunade to say that he can be saved or whatever if he was already dead. 
[2]

- That's must be why they wiped the floor with him. Nice logic you got there. lol

- No, you're the one who is being delusional, and denying the manga, not me. You can go
and read the manga again instead of fan-fiction and it stated several times how they clowned him. You just keep wanking him for whatever agenda you have. 

I don't know what the manga that you're reading where Tobirama can clown them. However, I wouldn't mind take a look to whatever manga you're reading.
So, may you please give me a link to that manga where Kin/Gin did not wipe the floor with Tobirama?


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If Deva chooses what power level his standard ST is, he is the worst judge of voltage ever, and I have zero reason to believe he's going to get it right this time over every other time he didn't.



Indeed. I actually think it doesn't matter, as i don't think Tobirama is going to only eat one Shinra Tensei before Nagato kills him.

Actually, i don't see Tobirama winning even if we only factor ST as a way to push him back. And it might get worse the moment Nagato sees Tobirama rapidly disappearing and sees him as a threat easier than Tobirama finding out the mechanics of Shinra Tensei before Nagato finds Hiraishin to be a problem.

And it gets worse for Tobirama with Linked Vision, because we've seen how Hiraishin can be "countered" if someone looks at it from another angle. If Killer Bee could save the Raikage before Minato actually executted him with his Kunai of doom that bypasses the shroud, then Nagato should be way more than capable of even side stepping or blasting him away.

But well, too many misteries for Tobirama to find out, while Nagato only needs to know about one and only once.


----------



## Joakim3 (Mar 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @joakim that nice and all *but killer bee got hit twice by it. didnt even bother to mention it as being a problem *



Except Killer B is one of _the_ most durable characters in the manga, when you consider he tanked a Jugo's CS2 aerial hay-maker (which had the the power of Ei's _Liger Bomb_ behind it).... with his _face_ 

Killer B in base is _literally_ more durable than Sasuke's Ribcage _Sasuno'o_ to put things into perspective. There is a reason Killer B could retaliate almost immediately after Nagato's assault while Itachi & Naruto were off panel for 1/4 of the chapter

Seeing Tobirama is nowhere near that ball park of durability, yes he does indeed get one shotted like anyone else in his *durability tier* if Nagato puts serious intent behind


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

base naruto got hit by st. 
and so did Kakashi.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Except Killer B is one of _the_ most durable characters in the manga, when you consider he tanked a Jugo's CS2 aerial hay-maker (which had the the power of Ei's _Liger Bomb_ behind it).... with his _face_
> 
> Killer B in base is _literally_ more durable than Sasuke's Ribcage _Sasuno'o_ to put things into perspective. There is a reason Killer B could retaliate almost immediately after Nagato's assault while Itachi & Naruto were off panel for 1/4 of the chapter
> 
> Seeing Tobirama is nowhere near that ball park of durability, yes he does indeed get one shotted like anyone else in his *durability tier* if Nagato puts serious intent behind



ah ur funny arent u. what on earth tells u jugo cs2 hay maker is on the same level with laiga bomb

good luck proving that. KB can be stabbed by a blood knife, rib cage susanoo cant. clealry bee is not more durable than rib cage susanoo 

lol erm naruto wasnt off paneled for even half a scan. he showed up right after. itachi plan was simple, wait for the opportunity to attack 

do prove tobirama is no where near that level of durability. can they both be stabbed??? yes they can 

so unless u somehow got some kishi statement saying killer bee is super durable then no he isnt any more durable than any ninja at his level

lovely fan fic though. but manga writting is not ur forte at all. dont quit ur day job

i guess u would soon tell me kakashi is more durable than  tobirama


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 22, 2015)

ST varies on power. If Bee and Kakashi (not counting Naruto, because Pain was not going to kill him) didn't suffer much, then they were hit by a ST not strong enough to damage them. Actually, Kakashi was hit by one that defeated him.

I don't see the difficulty, really .


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

my point is it isnt IC for nagato to use an ST strong enough to kill tobirama
considering the cool down period increases the stronger it gets. 

tobriama can exploit that to his advantage

since its not like nagato off the bat would use one strong enough to kill him or he would have against kakashi


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Gamabunta can withstand hits from Manda and the Ichibi, so Boss Summon's durability are certainly above the Shinobi's durability, but I agree, bigger doesn't mean greater durability.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

u would have to prove that high level shinobi cant take those hits. considering shinobi can beat their summons 
Ei and his dad are shinobi and they have greater durability 

chouji increasing his size doesnt make him more durable. my point is KO boss summons doesnt automatically mean can KO a shinobi


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u would have to prove that high level shinobi cant take those hits. considering shinobi can beat their summons
> Ei and his dad are shinobi and they have greater durability



 Why? KCM Naruto got knocked out of his Kyuubi Cloak against Son Goku and Gamabunta withstood hits from Ichibi. 

 Ei and 3rd Raikage are a special case and no one has durability on their level, not even Tsunade which is evident when Tsunade needed Genesis Rebirth to withstand instantaneous teleportation while Base Ei was perfectly fine. Comparing Ei and the 3rd Raikage to a Shinobi's Durability seems a bit strange to me.



> chouji increasing his size doesnt make him more durable. my point is KO boss summons doesnt automatically mean can KO a shinobi



 It depends. We have to take into consideration that the mass of the Boss Summons are considerably higher than a Shinobi's meaning they will be accelerated at a much higher rate compared to Boss Summons. That would logically mean that the Shinobi's would take more of a toll from a Boss-Sized ST compared to Boss Summons. This is independent from applying an opposing force such as what KN6 Naruto which can reduce the impact of it.

 Even then, Tobirama should be able to avoid it considering the size of the crater that was left from Pain's Boss-Sized ST wasn't * wide * enough to affect the surrounding Paths, so Tobirama should be able to Hiraishin out of there provided he places a couple of tags outside of that range.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 22, 2015)

Nagato might not use a boss sized ST right of the bat to kill Tobirama. However, the time will come where he resorts to it. If he doesn't choose to use CT first.

Actually, it's not we (The ones that say that boss sized ST can take down Tobirama) that has to proof it can. It's the ones saying it can't that needs to prove Tobirama has more durability than Gamabunta, because absence of evidence it's not evidence. And if a Shinobi has not shown something, it doesn't mean we will assume it has it.

Tobirama might be more durable than Gamabunta, but he hasn't shown anything that let us believe he is. Aside from that, that boss sized ST is not the strongest one Nagato can make. The strongest we've seen is the one that wiped out Konoha, and that was coming from a path weaker than Edo Nagato who is weaker than living Nagato. 

So, even in the case where Tobirama be more durable than Gamabunta doesn't mean Nagato cannot dish out a stronger ST than that to kill him.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 22, 2015)

Not that I agree with a lot of what Icegaze says, or the burdens of proof he's trying to pin on you, but you have to show Nagato has, at minimum, greater reactions than Obito with Kamui does, since that dude got tagged by Minato pre-KCM boost to show he can even react to hiraishin, or equal to Living Madara with one eye enhanced by Hashirama's sage mode spider sense.  That's not something I find adequately addressed by shared vision, since seeing Tobirama appear in shunshin stab behind Nagato, doesn't mean he's going to get off a Shinra Tensei in time, and JJ Obito's counter to having a tag behind him was keeping the space constantly occupied with eraser balls post knowledge.  That implies that he couldn't simply react to it and kill them when they attacked.

We also have plenty of cases where there were multiple paths looking at one opponent, and a body got wrecked.  Jiraiys had all the paths looking at him, and he kicked the eyeballs out of Human.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Edo Nagato who is weaker than living Nagato.
> .



From where you came up with this?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 22, 2015)

Plus the zombies.  Honestly, the ways Nagato can win involve a lot of scripting and guessing at what he'd do, and most of those guesses involve him quickly spamming his ultimate and most life shortening jutsu, often back to back or in conjunction with each other, which we don't even know if he can do, and setting up systems to cover and mitigate his weak points.  Whenever we've seen him fight, he's never done this.  The ways Tobirama have to win are more reasonable and IC, while Nagato's involve giving him the benefit of the doubt in every scenario.  So Tobirama is more likely he wins.

Everything else is sort of just beside the point.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Why? KCM Naruto got knocked out of his Kyuubi Cloak against Son Goku and Gamabunta withstood hits from Ichibi.
> 
> Ei and 3rd Raikage are a special case and no one has durability on their level, not even Tsunade which is evident when Tsunade needed Genesis Rebirth to withstand instantaneous teleportation while Base Ei was perfectly fine. Comparing Ei and the 3rd Raikage to a Shinobi's Durability seems a bit strange to me.
> 
> ...



what makes u say tobirama cant withstand hits from the ichibi?? when was taking his air blast such a durability feat. kisame withstood hirudora. yet can get stabbed by a knife same as tobirama or any other ninja. 
asuma took a punch from supersized butterfly mode chouji and wasnt turned to paste. 

when were ninja considered so weak that anything would send them flying and break bones. 

regardless of this. considering how nagato used it in battle, nothing indicates that by the time he opts for one capable of doing damage that tobirama wont have set up every possible escape. by which point ST wont matter

do note stronger ST means longer cool down. something vastly unwise against someone with hirashin. I dont see why nagato would even use ST when he sees edo tensei, he will know attacking them doesnt help him when and would try to rip their souls out. which only helps tobirama. 
then again we have seen nagato himself use ST twice and it really didnt do anything. the assumption that it does here is just that. an assumption


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Plus the zombies.  Honestly, the ways Nagato can win involve a lot of scripting and guessing at what he'd do, and most of those guesses involve him quickly spamming his ultimate and most life shortening jutsu, often back to back or in conjunction with each other, which we don't even know if he can do, and setting up systems to cover and mitigate his weak points.  Whenever we've seen him fight, he's never done this.  The ways Tobirama have to win are more reasonable and IC.  So it's more likely he wins.



Although I believe that Tobirama will get fodderstompped. But for your first point, isn't it like this for almost all the characters, and especially Tobirama as well?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

tobirmaa looses but fodderstomped is an exaggeration and for no reason. nagato is superior but not by that much. tobirama gets fodderstomped when u start talking hashirama and up


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

> tobirmaa looses but fodderstomped is an exaggeration and for no reason. nagato is superior but not by that much.



maybe. lol



> tobirama gets fodderstomped when u start talking hashirama and up



Nah, he gets fodderized when I talk Kinkaku and up according to the manga.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

if it makes u sleep at night

i guess hashirama is fodder level. since he got killed by some unknown person 

ah the god of shinobi is just fodder


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Although I believe that Tobirama will get fodderstompped. But for your first point, isn't it like this for almost all the characters, and especially Tobirama as well?



We have a lot of information and instances to draw on when we decide how a character will act in different situations.  We do for Tobirama.  We don't for Nagato.

We have means to make comparisons between characters through their relationships and showing with other characters.  We do for Tobirama.  We don't for Nagato.

What I'm saying is that Tobirama is a character in the manga, and we can point to his feats and battle and say, "Tobirama started fight like this this and this, and followed this kind of logic, and his jutsu hit Obito who was really fast in comparison to other characters we know to be fast."  From the source material, we get interpretations of him.  Arguments for Tobirama, and most character, look like, "I think Tobirama can and will do X because of because of these reasons.  [Citations]"  This is how they should look.

Prime Nagato is pretty much a fictitous character invented by the battledome, who has never appeared in the manga.  We don't have source material on Prime Nagato, to give us interpretations of Prime Nagato.  We have inventions of Prime Nagato.  We invent his mindset, we borrow his jutsu from various incarnations of Nagato and Pain, and we make up what his new limits are.  So the arguments for Prime Nagato look like, "I think Prime Nagato can and will do X, because I think he can.  I don't know what Prime Nagato _would_ do, but Nagato has a long list of abilities, and when I look at the list of things he might be able to do I think this combination will work."  That's not how arguments should look like.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

@Icegaze

He is overrated that for sure. However, unlike tobirama whom we know who killed him, defeated him before, and their number. Unfortunately, we don't know any of that when it comes to Hashirama. I would have used that as well if I know who defeated him, rather than hearing the delusional things about him being undefeated or all that crap. lol

However, the problem with Tobirama is the number really. You don't see people criticising the raikage for battling 10000 do you?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 22, 2015)

Also, scripting is bad.  Scripting is custom tailoring a scenario where one character wins, and then saying that because they win in that one instance, they win always.  So say a character wins 1/1000 times.  A scriptor will say that they win in that 1/1000 time, and this is how that fight goes.  Then they say this is how the battle will always go.

Most Battledome scenarios are taken from the average of many battle, or from the most likely outcome.  Sometimes some people will list the various possible outcomes.  Either this happens and x wins, or that happens and y wins.

Scripting relates really well to Nagato, because no one knows Nagato's mindset, and Nagato has a lot of powers.  So it's really easy to pick a set up (the 1/1000) that wins him a fight, and tell everyone else to prove it doesn't work.  Which people try to do when they shouldn't, and then you get arguments about how boss toads are less durable than Tobirama.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

> [=The Pirate on Wheels;53171965]We have a lot of information and instances to draw on when we decide how a character will act in different situations.  We do for Tobirama.  We don't for Nagato.


How do you do for Tobirama, and not Nagato when we actually have seen Nagato in more battles, and we have a better idea of him? Especially that those battles we have seen of him were him alone Vs other characters. Unlike Tobirama who we mainly seen him fighting along side other characters. 



> We have means to make comparisons between characters through their relationships and showing with other characters.  We do for Tobirama.  We don't for Nagato.



What do you mean their relation? 
and again, in term of showing we know for Nagato, and don't for Tobirama actually.  


> What I'm saying is that Tobirama is a character in the manga, and we can point to his feats and battle and say, "Tobirama started fight like this this and this, and followed this kind of logic, and his jutsu hit Obito who was really fast in comparison to other characters we know to be fast."  From the source material, we get interpretations of him.  Arguments for Tobirama, and most character, look like, "I think Tobirama can and will do X because of because of these reasons.  [Citations]"  This is how they should look.



I don't see how we can't do/say the same about Nagato. 
the thing is however, those characters do NOT start all of their fights the same way the did in previous fights. For example, we have seen Nagato using the GM right away against Hanzo. However, he never used it against Jiraiya, Konoha, Naruto, or as an ET. In addition, the circumstances differs, and especially in Tobirama's fights where you see a lot of fan-fiction do to the limited amount of information we have.  

For example, his explosion tags jutsu is still being debated on how he uses it, and whether it kills him or not (regardless of the fact that the DB states it does), and you see people saying he will use ET, mark them, and replace them with himself blah blah blah. When we don't even know if he can fight and control the ET at the same time since we have never seen such thing like that. So, in Tobirama's case it depends way too much on speculations. However, we know very well about Nagato and how his jutsu work since we actually have seen them several times, and we have seen how he start fighting in different cases. 


> Prime Nagato is pretty much a fictitous character invented by the battledome, who has never appeared in the manga.  We don't have source material on Prime Nagato, to give us interpretations of Prime Nagato.  We have inventions of Prime Nagato.  We invent his mindset, we borrow his jutsu from various incarnations of Nagato and Pain, and we make up what his new limits are.


Well, that's more or less like healthy itachi who is also a fan-made character. So once again, it's not only Nagato. Heck, even in Tobirama's case we have only seen him as an ET, and we don't really know his "real" limitations had he been alive. For example, Tobirama was exhausted when he was using the barrier Ninjutsu, and he barely had any remaining chakra, but because he is an ET he regained that chakra very fast. Or, the feet that a lot see it extremely impressive when he tagged obito, it wouldn't look nearly as good if he was alive and died right there.

At least we have an idea of Nagato's abilities from his fight against Hanzo, and the trio. The only missing piece is how fast he really is. 




> So the arguments for Prime Nagato look like, "I think Prime Nagato can and will do X, because I think he can.  I don't know what Prime Nagato _would_ do, but Nagato has a long list of abilities, and when I look at the list of things he might be able to do I think this combination will work."  That's not how arguments should look like.



This problem is in all of those threads that people assume the characters have their mentality, and they will do this or that. Or if they don't want X character even though they know that they have a jutsu that can end the fight in their favour they will only say "It is not going to happen"  

and besides many other factors and information that we lack. That's why judging of how important that character is to the story is more accurate because feats are really irrelevant. lol


----------



## Joakim3 (Mar 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ah ur funny arent u. what on earth tells u jugo cs2 hay maker is on the same level with laiga bomb
> 
> good luck proving that. KB can be stabbed by a blood knife, rib cage susanoo cant. clealry bee is not more durable than rib cage susanoo




Cutting damage =/= Blunt force trauma so the point you make is moot. You can casually stab someone through a bullet proof vest thats designed to stops .50 cal bullets

This was Jugo's one handed CS2 enhanced punch AoE (which he tanked with his face) and the crater left after his haymaker

Ei cracked Sasuke's initial ribcage _Sasuno'o_ with a relatively lesser force, than what Jugo exerted on Killer B, simply based on AoE damage to the enviornment



Icegaze said:


> lol erm naruto wasnt off paneled for even half a scan. he showed up right after. itachi plan was simple, wait for the opportunity to attack




Naruto was gone for more a _minimum_ of 5 seconds (seeing Nagato used 2 _Shinra Tensei_ and he has a 5 second gap between them) and this is before you consider the time it took for Nagato to absorb Killer B's V2 cloak. 5 seconds is a ridiculously long time in Narutoverse fights

Or Itachi could have been flattened, regenerated and then went about his summon man hunt. Itachi was off panel for 10 pages... 10, thats half a chapter, it doesn't take Itachi of all people 10 chapters to plant some shuriken into some summons eyes



Icegaze said:


> do prove tobirama is no where near that level of durability. can they both be stabbed??? yes they can
> 
> so unless u somehow got some kishi statement saying killer bee is super durable then no he isnt any more durable than any ninja at his level




Again... your grasping at straws as blunt force trauma resistance is very different than cutting/stabbing resistance, they deal damage in VERY different ways

The burden of proof is on you as *your* making the claim that Tobirama is as durable as Killer B without providing evidence. I've already showed you Killer B with stands things that a normal physical character would be turned into paste by



Icegaze said:


> lovely fan fic though. but manga writting is not ur forte at all. dont quit ur day job




Or maybe you lack reading compression and/or are an active participant of selective reading/listening/debating? 



Icegaze said:


> i guess u would soon tell me kakashi is more durable than  tobirama




Which would be a problem why.... if his feats backed it up?

Blame it on Kishi for portraying Kakashi as a resilient mother fucker  Whether it was against the V2 Jins, 7 Swordsmen, Sasuke, Obito, Kakuzu/Hidan, the mans taken some serious abuse. The fact that he withstood 3 low level _Shinra Tensei_ when Hinata was lol one shotted, before he (along with everyone else in that fight) was foddered by the 4th is just icing on the cake

Oh and FYI, Kakashi has nothing on Killer B's durability just to further prove the point


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain, I would like you to define Prime Nagato, and then show me an image of him under his normal mindset from the manga.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 22, 2015)

I hate when people use the AoE on the environment to scale how physically strong a character is.  That is extremely inconsistent, and it should be considering Kishi isn't scaling all attacks perfectly like that when he decides to draw a panel. No illustrator in manga does that's comical.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hussain, I would like you to define Prime Nagato, and then show me an image of him under his normal mindset from the manga.



[YOUTUBE]kDUIVTfNscw[/YOUTUBE]

with his usage of the jusu against the trio.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 22, 2015)

He was bloodlusted and or possessed by the rinnegan.



Unless he always walks into battle with this face.

That wasn't Prime Nagato who fought the trio, that was Deva.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

possessed? 



> That wasn't Prime Nagato who fought the trio, that was Deva.



wut?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> [YOUTUBE]kDUIVTfNscw[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> with his usage of the jusu against the trio.



 I would consider that Nagato to be considerably inferior to the Nagato everyone else refers to when they say Nagato roflstomps.

 The reason for that is Nagato's inexperienced with the Rinnegan and that was shown with his reckless usage of it  as well as the fact that Hanzo of all people who struggled to beat a Young Mifune tagged Nagato with explosives where Konan was needed to him withstand part of the blow.

 What strikes me as odd is how Pain managed to kill Hanzo rather easily while Prime Nagato failed to do the same thing with his strongest technique and we all know general consensus is Nagato >> Pain.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

Which is why I said with Nagato's' usage in the war. 
prime Nagato to me is one who can actually walk just fine like in video, and can use his jutsu as he did in the war.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Which is why I said with Nagato's' usage in the war.
> prime Nagato to me is one who can actually walk just fine like in video, and can use his jutsu as he did in the war.



 Oh never mind, I actually misread the scan. Konan never did protect Nagato from the tags. That, somewhat, changes my view on Prime Nagato's strength, but not by much.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Which is why I said with Nagato's' usage in the war.
> prime Nagato to me is one who can actually walk just fine like in video, and can use his jutsu as he did in the war.





> prime Nagato to me is one who can actually walk just fine like in video, and can use his jutsu as he did in the war.



Okay, show me a scan of your description of him from the manga.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 22, 2015)

Kakashi after a moderate ST was used on him, 
*but the power equivalent to 2 TBB (TBB and PS chidori) shrugged off the face and the entire left side of PS, *

Choza pretty much almost dead, despite being more durable than the average shinobi 
Link removed
Link removed

an ST  that was nothing infront of the one that was used on the boss toads, as seen by the change in environment
*but the power equivalent to 2 TBB (TBB and PS chidori) shrugged off the face and the entire left side of PS, * 

tobirama gets flattened, 
nagato can also use all that force to pin him down on the ground similar to what he did to hinata (albeit on a much higher scale), where his skull gets fractured,


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 22, 2015)

Do people really think tobirama is more durable the gama trio(note: not as durable meaning he would still get wrecked but _more_ durable) or that he will tank something that can wreck a village in one-shot? Where are the durability feats coming from. 

Ah well. Shame the only way tobirama can win is if you ignore nagato's destructive feats while at the same time fabricate durability feats for tobirama.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Okay, show me a scan of your description of him from the manga.



I already did in that video. I don't feel like searching the manga. you can go and reread Naruto and Nagato Tnj by yourself is you so desire... U_U


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 23, 2015)

You gave me a scan of Deva and a video of bloodlusted teenaged Nagato who got owned by exploding tags.

Then we get emaciated Gedo Nagato who gets tnj'd, and edo wheelchair Nagato, and then Mobile Nagato under Kabuto's mind control.  

"Prime Nagato" doesn't exist in the manga.  But you insisted we had everything we need for him except reaction feats.  NarutoX28 is right, the Nagato that you showed certainly isn't the impression of one people say stomps the second strongest Senju.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

never said tobirama was more durable than the toads
all i say is why assume the toads are more durable 
which is a perfectly reasonable question 

ST can kill tobirama 
never said it couldnt however it isnt IC for nagato to use those. i dont see why IC logic doesnt suddenly apply to nagato yet every bloody itachi match its oh he wont start with tskuyomi 

but somehow nagato who used 3 ST on kakashi before it could do anything is suddenly goign to be killing tobirama on his first attempt. nah thats silly


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 23, 2015)

This IC BS needs to stop here as all it really shows is someone running circles around the inevitable or avoiding it bcz their said character can't counter it

ST is nagatos main move and this time he's facing the fkn hokage
Why on earth would he not use his stronger ones? 

Nevertheless this is the battledome and a characters entire moveset shud be taken into perspective 
Using things like IC is a mere assertion to help sugar coat their argument when in reality just makes it flawed


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 23, 2015)

> Why on earth would he not use his stronger ones?



I dunno, why didn't he?

Why didn't he slam everyone into the ground all the time like he did with Hinata?

Is Hinata from a clan famed for their durability and vitality and raw power?  Is that why she survived the attack that crushed the bones of the Gama Trio, or did Deva hold back even though there's no reason on earth for him to not use his stronger ones?

What was up with the one that Naruto tanked with clone props?

What happened to the one the Kyuubi powered through?  That didn't warrant beyond the basic?



> ST is nagatos main move and this time he's facing the fkn hokage



He didn't use it all against Jiraiya.  He used it zero times against Naruto and Bee, letting himself get burned to death until Kabuto made him.

It's almost like he's an inconsistent and terrible character with an inconsistent and ill defined move set.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Not that I agree with a lot of what Icegaze says, or the burdens of proof he's trying to pin on you, but you have to show Nagato has, at minimum, greater reactions than Obito with Kamui does, since that dude got tagged by Minato pre-KCM boost to show he can even react to hiraishin, or equal to Living Madara with one eye enhanced by Hashirama's sage mode spider sense.  That's not something I find adequately addressed by shared vision, since seeing Tobirama appear in shunshin stab behind Nagato, doesn't mean he's going to get off a Shinra Tensei in time, and JJ Obito's counter to having a tag behind him was keeping the space constantly occupied with eraser balls post knowledge.  That implies that he couldn't simply react to it and kill them when they attacked.
> 
> We also have plenty of cases where there were multiple paths looking at one opponent, and a body got wrecked.  Jiraiys had all the paths looking at him, and he kicked the eyeballs out of Human.



I already explained why. When Minato was going to kill the Raikage, Killer Bee had enough time to extend his Tentacle and save him.

Aside from that, we've seen how "mental" ninjutsu in activation helps the user quite a lot without the need of dodging and helps them to counter extremely fast jutsus.

Itachi used Susano'o before Kirin struck his head.
Madara used Susano'o before Naruto's Rasengan and the earth Jutsu Onoki used crushed him.
Sasuke used Susano'o before KCM Minato could even touch his right shoulder with his left hand. Something that a normal human being can do in less than a second.

Why cannot Nagato do the same against a slower opponent with an attack that's basically the same in activation speed?

Also, i always saw as Juubito was caught off guard fighting against numerous opponents. Tobirama would've never made something like that in a one on one confrontation. However, if Nagato is tagged, i already said Tobirama has his chances of killing him. What i don't see him making is killing Nagato like he tried to do with SM Madara,as Nagato should be able to counter confortably.

However, the main reason why i say Nagato wins is that i don't see Tobirama managing to tag him. And considering how big of a tank Nagato is, i don't see how much damage Tobirama can dish out to him with a Kunai, since he lacks Minato's Kunai of doom, and Nagato can cover himself with Asura Path if he feels threatened by Hiraishin after seeing Tobirama using it.

Refering to the post above: Shinra Tensei is like Amaterasu and Tsunade/Sakura's punch. They are not used on people that are going to be living or that cannot counter it, because that would kill them and are only used on fodders, like the poor Gama trio. Wich is bad for the three characters, as sadly, the St Nagato has been using varies in power, or at least, the one used on the summons looked incredibly bigger than the one used on Naruto.

Jiraiya was outright defeated without the need of ST. He was being defeated by 3 paths before Frog Song, now 6 and with knowledge on the jutsu was overkill.



Hussain said:


> From where you came up with this?



Edo Tenseis are weaker than their living counter part. Tobirama, who is weaker than Nagato couldn't be revived 100% by a stronger Edo Tensei used with Hashirama's DNA.

Kabuto's Edo Tensei should be weaker than the one Oro used on the Kages the second time. Coupled with that you might not be strong enough to summon the Gedo Mazo with a fake Rinnegan, obviously the eyes won't be as powerful as the real ones.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

@ARGUS
I entirely agree with u
hence why i said tobirama looses off the bat

now make sure u keep to that frame of mind and dont go flaky on me. so then i am sure u agree itachi vs jiriaya matches have always been silly since itachi can amaterasu jiraiya off the bat and win or tskuyomi him off the bat

this is the part where u change ur mind now...i knew u would flake. which really sucks no one can actually hold up a consistent argument

doe like i said tobirama uses, am using the popular NF logic of IC here which has always been an excuse for the inevitable. glad someone agrees with that +reps if u dont flake on me. sadly i know u would


----------



## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

> Edo Tenseis are weaker than their living counter part. Tobirama, who is weaker than Nagato couldn't be revived 100% by a stronger Edo Tensei used with Hashirama's DNA.
> 
> Kabuto's Edo Tensei should be weaker than the one Oro used on the Kages the second time. Coupled with that you might not be strong enough to summon the Gedo Mazo with a fake Rinnegan, obviously the eyes won't be as powerful as the real ones.



Except Kabuto's edo is stronger than Oro's.  
that's why we were told that some characters are exactly as powerful as they were, and others more powerful than they were (Madara's case)

it's not about being strong enough to summon the GM, the fake one does not summon it.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

actually the only summon which was brought back more powerful than they were in life was madara
as he said madara was special 
every other ET was weaker than they were in real life


----------



## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

Not really. Deidara could have used C0 over and over again if he wanted. Itachi was stronger than how he was as well. Mu was as powerful, and so was the raikage....etc

The ones who were weaker are the ones who lost their tools. For example
Sasori, Chiyo, some of the 7swordsmen. Hanzo for losing his "faith"


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

the manga, kishi and the creator of ET (tobirama)
disagree firmly with you 

despite hashirama DNA tobirama couldnt be brought back to full power. kabuto even said oro chakra improved the power of his binding 

and u think its the fodder bodies kabuto used for his ritual that would bring back ET to full power 

think again. 

ET dojutsu doesnt compare to alive dojutsu. all 9 bijuu made that remark. they clearly said he cant summon mazo with ET eyes 

please, lol !!! this was stated in the manga tirelessly


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I already explained why. When Minato was going to kill the Raikage, Killer Bee had enough time to extend his Tentacle and save him.
> 
> Aside from that, we've seen how "mental" ninjutsu in activation helps the user quite a lot without the need of dodging and helps them to counter extremely fast jutsus.
> 
> ...



The Bee interception feat is dumb and makes no sense.  Which falls in line with interceptions being dumb and not counted precisely because you get stupid stuff like Sasuke needing his top speed and sharingan precog to handle VI Ei, but Suigetsu totally not.  

Mentally we saw that Regular Madara could block V2 shunshin, and becoming living gave him a huge boost in everything, as did sage sensing.  He _very_ narrowly avoiding getting a kunai to the brainstem, so Nagato avoiding it with a "mental" jutsu is dubious.  

Sasuke is also non-sensical and stupid, but at least has eyeballs that show him the future, and random gigantic boosts to Uchiha's might base speed.  Every last one of the impressive feats of shared vision came when some path or body or summon kept their eyes trained on the target the entire time.  Whenever someone wooped in or appeared or vanished and came back into the field of vision, Painato got trashed.  

We also have many instances of ST being barely sufficient against much slower attacks and opponents, and the All Power To One Close to Home Deva Path noting that he needed to maintain a particular distance against the kyuubi to be able to activate a ST in time.  Nagato would have to be so much better and more reflexive that his buffer space becomes nil.  

Him not needing it against Jiraiya doesn't contradict him not using it despite it being his go-to jutsu.  Though Jiraiya did kind of escape from him and kill a Pain body Ma drug off, and ST or a quick BT would have been awfully handy about then.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the manga, kishi and the creator of ET (tobirama)
> disagree firmly with you
> 
> despite hashirama DNA tobirama couldnt be brought back to full power. kabuto even said oro chakra improved the power of his binding
> ...



you're as delusional as ever, icegarze. 
Yes, Oro's chakra improved Kabuto's because he gained even more power than his, so what? 
he stated his is better than Oro even before he captured Anko. 

but anyway, if that helps you to sleep at night, then sure, why not.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

lol the denial is strong in your trollssain
it was already stated in the manga, tobirama himself said i wasnt brought back at full strength 

why would kabuto ET somehow surpass that despite lacking Hashirama DNA for the sacrificies 

lol u trolling clown..funny as ever


----------



## Joakim3 (Mar 23, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I hate when people use the AoE on the environment to scale how physically strong a character is.  That is extremely inconsistent, and it should be considering Kishi isn't scaling all attacks perfectly like that when he decides to draw a panel. No illustrator in manga does that's comical.



It at worst can give us a _relative_ ball park of how strong x character is


----------



## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol the denial is strong in your trollssain
> it was already stated in the manga, tobirama himself said i wasnt brought back at full strength
> 
> why would kabuto ET somehow surpass that despite lacking Hashirama DNA for the sacrificies
> ...



the stupidity in this response is beyond comprehension.  
Did I say Tobirama was not brought back at almost full power? No, I did not. 

Has the manga stated that Hashirama's DNA is needed to make the jutsu at full power? No it did not.
you just pulled that out of your ass. 

fuck, Oro used the ET BEFORE he got Zetsu. 
they went with genjutsu
they went with genjutsu


Kabuto's ET > Oro's. that's what was shown and stated in the manga, period.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @ARGUS
> I entirely agree with u
> hence why i said tobirama looses off the bat
> 
> ...



It wasn't aimed at you nor did I flake on you for saying tobirmaa wins, 
Only for downgrading a feat, 

This is Just aimed generally bcz I'm getting sick of this IC BS


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> It wasn't aimed at you nor did I flake on you for saying tobirmaa wins,
> Only for downgrading a feat,
> 
> This is Just aimed generally bcz I'm getting sick of this IC BS



i know it wasnt aimed at me
and i appreciate you like madly!! atm i have been saying that ish for a while. and all i here is oh no he wont start with that cuz its not IC, which fucks me off. so i got used to it

i never did say tobirama would win. he cant win, that has always been my position. 

all am saying is its not a slaughter 

I agree eg no reason deidara cant start with C4 or itachi with V4 susanoo etc. (considering deidara did try such off the bat against onoki) so yh good reason to believe any ninja would use any jutsu at their disposal to win as smartly and quickly as possible 

imma rep u


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except Kabuto's edo is stronger than Oro's.
> that's why we were told that some characters are exactly as powerful as they were, and others more powerful than they were (Madara's case)
> 
> it's not about being strong enough to summon the GM, the fake one does not summon it.



Oro had Hashirama's chakra and DNA and even yet he couldn't revive Tobirama at full power. Kishimoto bothered to mention why Tobirama, who was brought almost at full power, couldn't regain control. The jutsu was stronger.

Madara had some modifications. And the other shinobis you listed have nothing to prove they were weaker because we never saw them. Not even Itachi was shown fighting healthy, but yeah, he had the luxury of having unlimited chakra.

Madara also "regained his past powers" once he was alive, and he was brought back by Kabuto's Edo Tensei. Fake Rinnegan is hardly being in the level of a real one, in my opinion.

They being able to use their strongest jutsu doesn't mean they were brought back at full power either unless their strongest jutsu uses all of their chakra and power. Deidara, like almost all the edos, also had a terrible showing. Being blitzed by Sai when he could react to Sasuke and Gai is another hint to that.

But everything points (at least to me) that Edos are not brought back at full power.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

> =LostSelf;53180436]Oro had Hashirama's chakra and DNA and even yet he couldn't revive Tobirama at full power. Kishimoto bothered to mention why Tobirama, who was brought almost at full power, couldn't regain control. The jutsu was stronger.



Except Oro used the ET BEFORE he gets Zetsu, and I have already explained that lost. Also, who said that Hashirama's chakra makes the jutsu ITSELF stronger?

it only makes the BOUNDING more powerful. 


> Madara had some modifications. And the other shinobis you listed have nothing to prove they were weaker because we never saw them. Not even Itachi was shown fighting healthy, but yeah, he had the luxury of having unlimited chakra.



We have seen Sasori, Chiyo...etc, and they were weaker. Onoki stated Mu is just as powerful as he was...etc. 


> Madara also "regained his past powers" once he was alive, and he was brought back by Kabuto's Edo Tensei. Fake Rinnegan is hardly being in the level of a real one, in my opinion.


No, Madara stated to the Kages that he used his full power. With Kabuto's modification he is stronger.
Unless you can prove that Hashirama has Hiruzen's magical Ball in the after-life and he had knowledge on everything was going on after his death. 


ET Madara > Edo Madara > living madara. That's how it is in the manga. 



> But everything points (at least to me) that Edos are not brought back at full power.


Kabuto, onoki...etc disagree though. There are only specific cases that we were told that they were not at their full power like in the 4 Hokages case, and even then, they were almost at full power. People just love to exaggerate and make it seems like if they are no where near their full power. -_-

would that 5 or 10% really makes all the different?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

Living Madara >> Edo Madara I would think considering Madara was boasting about being more accustomed to fighting which would indicate a power boost.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

No, it was stated Edo Madara > Living madara.
Madara himself did not deny that.

and honestly it's pretty obvious that edo Madara is stronger than EMS Madara. 
I don't know in what world is the EMS > EMS, Rinnegan, Wood, immortality, and endless chakra.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i know it wasnt aimed at me
> and i appreciate you like madly!! atm i have been saying that ish for a while. and all i here is oh no he wont start with that cuz its not IC, which fucks me off. so i got used to it
> 
> i never did say tobirama would win. he cant win, that has always been my position.
> ...



Thanks man, and yes, this whole IC BS is stupid, 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I dunno, why didn't he?
> 
> Why didn't he slam everyone into the ground all the time like he did with Hinata?


does it matter? he did it to someone far  weaker than Tobirama,, ,

this is the battledome, we take all the abilities of a character into account and inlcude them in our arguments, 
ignoring and running circles around an ability by saying ''IC'' is a piss poor of an excuse 



> Is Hinata from a clan famed for their durability and vitality and raw power?  Is that why she survived the attack that crushed the bones of the Gama Trio, or did Deva hold back even though there's no reason on earth for him to not use his stronger ones?


Was the ST used on the boss toads the same as the one used on hinata? 
no it wasnt, so i suggest we stop being ignorant here 



> What was up with the one that Naruto tanked with clone props?


Thhat was a regular ST, and the only reason he managed to do that because he was completely surrounded by his clones who aided the original to brace the impact to reduce damage 



> What happened to the one the Kyuubi powered through?  That didn't warrant beyond the basic?


Nothin special on that ST either, 
does that mean that KN6 could power through any ST? regardless of how powerful it is? it certainly shouldnt, 



> He didn't use it all against Jiraiya.  He used it zero times against Naruto and Bee, letting himself get burned to death until Kabuto made him.


He didnt want to fight naruto and bee so that throws your argument out the window, 
the whole time it was kabuto using him, 

as for jiraiya, not only was he figting through Peins but deva wasnt even there for the whole fight until the very end
[/QUOTE]


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, it was stated Edo Madara > Living madara.
> Madara himself did not deny that.
> 
> and honestly it's pretty obvious that edo Madara is stronger than EMS Madara.
> I don't know in what world is the EMS > EMS, Rinnegan, Wood, immortality, and endless chakra.



 He did by questioning if Kabuto even knew how powerful he was in his Prime where Kabuto literally stated, "No." 

 No it's not. Edos such as Tobirama and Hashirama are implied to be inferior to what they were when they were Alive. It's clear Madara wasn't revived at full strength despite what Kabuto stated. Hell, he couldn't revive Nagato with complete mobility.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He did by questioning if Kabuto even knew how powerful he was in his Prime where Kabuto literally stated, "No."
> 
> No it's not. Edos such as Tobirama and Hashirama are implied to be inferior to what they were when they were Alive. It's clear Madara wasn't revived at full strength despite what Kabuto stated. Hell, he couldn't revive Nagato with complete mobility.



Madara stated his full power to be his PS, and we know he indeed does not have anything stronger than that. 
However, in addition to this he has all those additional power.

- That's your opinion sweetheart. Edo Madara is stronger than his living self, whether you like it or not, that's what the manga stated/showed.  

because Nagato died as such.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 23, 2015)

EMS Madara w/Kyuubi >> Edo madara, 
Hussain i have already debunked your claim several times yet you continue to say the same thing over and over again, 

Edo Madaras full power = PS 
VOTE Madaras full power = PS+Full Kurama, 
PS+Full Kurama >>>> PS,  
and having base mokutons and a fake rinnegan doesnt compensate for the massive loss in firepower either


----------



## Trojan (Mar 24, 2015)

your opinion =/= fact. Get over it. 
Edo Madara > Living madara = fact.
Living madara > Edo madara = Fan-fiction.

Also, it's not like if Edo Madara can't summon Kurama really. Even if it were a living madara, he wouldn't get an already sealed Kurama either.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> your opinion =/= fact. Get over it.
> Edo Madara > Living madara = fact.
> Living madara > Edo madara = Fan-fiction.
> 
> Also, it's not like if Edo Madara can't summon Kurama really. Even if it were a living madara, he wouldn't get an already sealed Kurama either.



 Edo Madara can't summon Kurama considering Naruto still has 50% Kurama and the other half was sealed away inside Minato's body.

 So now, Edo Madara can't summon Kurama. 

 VoTE Madara however, does not have that restriction.

 Even then, Edo Madara never used his Rinnegan against Hashirama meaning it was entirely useless. It's clear that Perfect Susano'o > any technique Madara can use with his Rinnegan barring Limbo (potentially).


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 24, 2015)

ARRRRGUS said:
			
		

> This IC BS needs to stop here as all it really shows is someone running circles around the inevitable or avoiding it bcz their said character can't counter it





> i suggest we stop being ignorant here



I'm a little surprised that any decent battledomer would downplay mindset.

"Mindset" is considered an essential criteria for posting a good match up.  It's fundamentally important.  In fact, it's up there where knowledge and distance and location and who is even fighting.  You can find that in the , and in the example for how to write a good battledome thread.  Bloodlusted, IC to kill, To Capture, Friendly, ect can all drastically change the outcome of a match, as much as any of the other requirements or special conditions.  

I will let you be privy to my universal evaluation of matches, which I've made public before.  So it's not really very privy at all...

Can a character win?  Yes/No.  If a character can't win, they basically have to lose and the match is settled.

Can a character lose?  Yes/No.  If you can't lose, then you basically have to win.

If both characters can win, then we have a match.

Now here comes the tricky part.

Can and will the character use the strategy/tools/jutsu they need to win before the opponent uses the strategy/tools/jutsu they need to defeat that character?

This is dependent on Mindset and in character preferences and reactions and how the match plays out, and it's based on what we've seen them do in the manga from their natural state.  If they do, they win.  If the other does first, they win.  Sometimes there are multiple probably outcomes, and give them rough percentages and factor them together to see who wins more times than not.  This quantification, or estimation, is of vital importance to have.

Can Jiraiya can kill his opponents?  J-man has a move that can turn opponents into a frog, so he can, at least theoretically, beat anyone.  The problem is, the jutsu sucks, and is basically impossible to deploy, and he only ever did it for interrogation.  So if that's his only way to win, then it's almost guaranteed that he's not going to think of it or pull it off before his opponent play their winning hand.

Contrast that to kamui happy Kakashi, who will gleefully warp away any opponent he knows is stronger than him, can hang with any opponent who can't quickly beat him until he knows he needs it, or it strong enough to take without it.  If Kakashi for some reason _never_ used kamui even though he totally could, then his wins by warp out would be very low indeed, because the opponent doesn't have to worry about countering jutsu Kakashi won't use.  Much like no one has to worry about Jiraiya turning them into a frog in any match ever.  Does this make sense?  If it does, you should already see why Nagato's unknown IC mindset is kind of a big deal.  For more middle ground examples, you will never ask what a character's counter to Naruto's Futon Rasengan is, because Naruto doesn't remember he ever learned that jutsu.  You will seldom ever mention Taka's Nagashi, because he forgot he could do that as well.  Though you might with Hebi, because he has a different mindset.  

I agreed with Rocky, or meant to agree, that if Nagato did the XYZ, he would likely win, and I even said in my initial posts that he has ways to screw up Tobirama.  But when I asked Rocky what the likelyhood of Nagato employing those strategies are, so I could run some percentages and change my opinion, because I don't know, he said...



> Hell if I know, I don't understand Nagato's mind to good enough to know why he would or wouldn't do it right off the bat.



Rocky's a great poster who knows the manga pretty well.  Won awards and everything.  If he don't know, and I don't know, I can't quantify, and that's a problem.  I can't say Nagato will do those things and win more often than not.  All I can say is that it's possible to do those things, but possibility is not probability, and how I or you would use jutsu is different from how the characters might.  One need look no further than the KC to see how true that is.

So can Prime Nagato win?  Yes.  Nagato has loads of jutsu that he can theoretically use in many combinations to let him kill pretty much anyone.

Can Prime Nagato lose?  Yes.  He is killable.

Can and will the Prime Nagato use the strategy/tools/jutsu he need to win before the opponent uses the strategy/tools/jutsu they need to defeat that character?

I don't think so, but I don't really know Nagato's mind.  So what to do...  One could say they don't know who wins, because Prime Nagato matches are inherently missing vital information to qualify as a good match up to discuss.  They stop short of being able to draw a meaningful conclusion with any confidence, because every action and combination of jutsu has about the same probability of being used at any point in the match. 

Or they could say probably Tobirama wins, because Nagato probably won't start with his life endangering moves and multi-path combinations off the bat, and leave the burden of proof on Nagato and his supporters to show he will do these things, since they should side with the evidence.  Certainly if the battle drags on, you can give Nagato the benefit of the doubt that he'll start to get creative, or use his more powerful jutsu.  I like this option, because it's conservative, and runs the least risk over overestimating or scripting battles.  

Or, one could try to prove Tobirama can definitely defeat every jutsu and possible combination of jutsu every iterations of Prime Nagato might be able to do.  If Tobirama can do that, he can definitely win, which is basically what every Nagato fanboy insists you do, and no one wants to get negged in the library for that again.  I'm _so_ sick of getting negged by Itachi fans for being a Nagato fanboy...  But it's a stupid approach, because we aren't talking about characters fighting or how the match might play out with these conditions in the manga.  We're picking better movesets with no regard to the characters who own them or the conditions they're placed in, and that's not the question being asked.

btw



> he's facing the fkn hokage



Does he know it's the Hokage, or does he think he's fighting a Senju in blue armor?  He doesn't even have manga knowledge or hype.  I'm open to disagreement of interpretations of no knowledge.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

mindset is used as an excuse to give the weaker person in the encounter a chance at winning 
nothing more 
that much makes sense what stops the stronger person from decimating off the bat.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Even then, Edo Madara never used his Rinnegan against Hashirama meaning it was entirely useless. It's clear that Perfect Susano'o > any technique Madara can use with his Rinnegan barring Limbo (potentially).



Except those useless characters got off-paneled because they were not important. We don't know what did Madara use. The only thing that might be taken as a hint is Hashirama telling Madara that he can't absorb his jutsu anymore, which indicates that Madara did at least use Preta Path. 

Second, not using it does not mean it's useless. Madara did not use the other paths against the Gokage either, does that mean CT, ST...etc were all useless? 

that's the problem with most of the debaters I have seen. They think the characters must use ALL of their jutsu in every battle, every single one of them. When in fact that *NEVER* happens.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> mindset is used as an excuse to give the weaker person in the encounter a chance at winning
> nothing more
> that much makes sense what stops the stronger person from decimating off the bat.



Excuse is a word used by people who are angry that they have to think about matches and read the opening posts.  

Reason is the word smart and cool people use.  Aren't you a smart and cool person Icegaze?


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2015)

In my opinion, Edo zombies were clearly not at full power. If not outright stated in some cases (Madara, Tobirama, etc.) then we could clearly see enormous performance gaps (Sasori, Deidara, etc.)

We saw Madara's huge jump in physical ability, and we know that even with Hashirama's DNA backing him up, Orochimaru only brought back the Hokage at maybe 90%.

So it stands to reason that Kabuto, who didn't have Hashirama's DNA in him super-powering jutsu (example: Kotoamatsukami) then he might only bring back ninja at a smaller number, like 70%.

And again, Sai blitzed Sasori and Deidara. I personally don't think that would happen if those ninja were alive, given Deidara was reacting and outplaying Gai, Kakashi, Neji, and KN3 in life.

This kind of goes with the whole "zombie" thing anyway. Zombies slow down a bit in terms of agility from living counterparts, but they also get ridiculous resilience (gotta' shotgun their heads.)​


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 25, 2015)

I really hate using the plot card because everything in the manga is motivated by plot in some sense, but plot-induced-stupidity applies so strongly and obviously in the Deidara/Sasori example that I'm surprised anyone would try to use it as evidence for _anything_. Well, not really, because I know who this is indirectly hyping. Sai didn't just dash at them: he drew a bird, had the bird rush, drew two ink giants after he got up there, and then the two ink giants punch Sasori and Deidara out of the sky. Really _even if_ Sasori and Deidara were brought back at say 70% that blitz _still_ should not have _ever_ happened, so I don't think that works as an explanation.


Orochimaru brought back the Hokages _before_ leaping to Zetsu's body, and Tobirama noted that they'd been brought back at full power _before_ Orochimaru started using Hashirama's cells. Why Kabuto's would be less powerful is beyond me- if anything Orochimaru's were so much better this time around because he acquired Kabuto's knowledge before casting the Jutsu.

Ohnoki would not have ever said Mū's Jinton was the same as ever if there was some enormous performance gap actually present in Kabuto's Edo Tensei.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I really hate using the plot card because everything in the manga is motivated by plot in some sense, but plot-induced-stupidity applies so strongly and obviously in the Deidara/Sasori example that I'm surprised anyone would try to use it as evidence for _anything_. Well, not really, because I know who this is indirectly hyping. Sai didn't just dash at them: he drew a bird, had the bird rush, drew two ink giants after he got up there, and then the two ink giants punch Sasori and Deidara out of the sky. Really _even if_ Sasori and Deidara were brought back at say 70% that blitz _still_ should not have _ever_ happened, so I don't think that works as an explanation.
> 
> 
> Orochimaru brought back the Hokages _before_ leaping to Zetsu's body, and Tobirama noted that they'd been brought back at full power _before_ Orochimaru started using Hashirama's cells. Why Kabuto's would be less powerful is beyond me- if anything Orochimaru's were so much better this time around because he acquired Kabuto's knowledge before casting the Jutsu.
> ...



You know what's sad about Sai's blitz, dear FlamingRain? (not directed to you or somebody specifically). is that if a popular character did that, then the feat would've been valid.

I was going to put Itachi and Gai there as examples, but i won't because they both are speedesters. Let's put Tsunade, Jiraiya, Base fucking Naruto and Sasuke or even Sakura, because everybody is saying she's pretty fast because she managed to run away a bit before Kaguya killed her, and any other non-speedester doing it, and the feat would be taken very valid here.

Why Sai is not getting the same treatment? We once had a huge debate of Tsunade outpacing V2 lightened Ei. Why is that different than what Sai did?

Hussain: I don't think they were brought back at 50% power either, and if Oro used Edo Tensei before using Hashirama's DNA then you have a valid point. However, like FR said, he absorbed everything Kabuto had, wich can explain why Tobirama and Hashirama weren't brought back at fodder level.

We can say Kabuto is better, however, by how much? They can be pretty much equal now. Onoki saying Mu's Jinton being equal doesn't say much. Because Jinton is not a jutsu that takes all of Prime Mu's chakra. If a jutsu uses 30% of the user's chakra, it doesn't matter if the user has 70% or 100%, he will be able to perform said jutsu.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Excuse is a word used by people who are angry that they have to think about matches and read the opening posts.
> 
> Reason is the word smart and cool people use.  Aren't you a smart and cool person Icegaze?




give me 1 good reason why itachi would be fighting jiriaya in a death match and not start with amaterasu 
or why jiraiya wont drop a toad on his head?

plot isnt involved in the battledome therefore the mind set is shaky at best. 

in the plot neither have wanted to kill each other. itachi spent the entire 700 pages not trying to kill anyone. so why on earth would you assume when trying to kill someone he wouldnt do that off the bat

we have however seen characters willing to kill and off the bat they do whats best. onoki jinton, deidara C4. 

madara off the bat against hashirama uses susanoo, when fighting fodders taijutsu and lol katon. 
EI against minato who he had no hate for goes full speed off the bat, yet bloodlusted against jugo and the rest uses V1. 

*characters do what they need to based on what they perceive as a threat. *

Same way to kill say asuma KCM wouldnt need to use FRS therefore wont use it. against a stronger opponent he could decide off the bat he needs to and uses it. how is that not logical?

tobirama would not see a rinnegan user and not go ET off the bat. nagato would not see tobirama with the level of chakra tobirama has and not decide imma ST him off the face off the earth, or try to at least.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I really hate using the plot card because everything in the manga is motivated by plot in some sense, but plot-induced-stupidity applies so strongly and obviously in the Deidara/Sasori example that I'm surprised anyone would try to use it as evidence for _anything_.



Those that performed "normally" were never seen fighting at their true living level, and it was outright stated, implied, and shown that Edo Tensei diminishes level (namely agility) to various extents.

What you're doing is systematically cherry-picking statements. 'It's only Madara and Tobirama.' And cherry-picking "plot cards." 'It's only Deidara and Sasori.' Rather than seeing it for what it is. 

And then you say your view is "so strong" and "obvious" when it's closer to delusion. And newsflash, there was no stupidity involved with Sasori and Deidara. They were looking at him. And blitzed.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Ohnoki would not have ever said Mū's Jinton was the same as ever if there was some enormous performance gap actually present in Kabuto's Edo Tensei.



Deidara's c0 was the same as ever. Madara's Susano'o was the same as ever. That doesn't mean Deidara and Madara were overall the same performers as Edos as they were in life.

Hence Deidara being blitzed by Sai and Madara's massive speed boost upon being made living once again.​


LostSelf said:


> We once had a huge debate of Tsunade outpacing V2 lightened Ei.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Those that performed "normally" were never seen fighting at their true living level, and it was outright stated, implied, and shown that Edo Tensei diminishes level (namely agility) to various extents.
> 
> What you're doing is systematically cherry-picking statements. 'It's only Madara and Tobirama.' And cherry-picking "plot cards." 'It's only Deidara and Sasori.' Rather than seeing it for what it is.
> 
> And then you say your view is "so strong" and "obvious" when it's closer to delusion. And newsflash, there was no stupidity involved with Sasori and Deidara. They were looking at him. And blitzed.​



Deidara easily performed at the level he was hyped to when he battled Onnoki. He used C3 to flip over the turtle ( same level it was at against Gaara), had the same flying speed( as he commented on Onnoki's improvement, and even had C4 casually prepped. I mean even Muu was stated to be at the same level, and if he wasn't wouldn't Onoki of all people realize ? 

Itachi even clearly performed on a level above anything he's actually shown in the manga.

Only ninja that was weakened were the Edo Hokage, Nagato, and Madara. And those were all stated.


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 25, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> You know what's sad about Sai's blitz, dear FlamingRain? (not directed to you or somebody specifically). is that if a popular character did that, then the feat would've been valid.



It wouldn't be for me. If it makes no sense then it makes no sense.



> Why Sai is not getting the same treatment? We once had a huge debate of Tsunade outpacing V2 lightened Ei. Why is that different than what Sai did?



"We" as in _me and you_ or just the BD? I don't think _I_ ever said Tsunade outpaced V2 lightened Ay. I'm actually pretty confident I've posted that Tsunade isn't faster than _any_ incarnation of Ay before.

I remember saying that she outpaced _Ohnoki_, though.



> Onoki saying Mu's Jinton being equal doesn't say much. Because Jinton is not a jutsu that takes all of Prime Mu's chakra. If a jutsu uses 30% of the user's chakra, it doesn't matter if the user has 70% or 100%, he will be able to perform said jutsu.



Maybe I could agree with that line of reasoning if Kakashi hadn't noticed that something was off after seeing Shōten Itachi use Gōkakyū (which I'm pretty sure Itachi could fire off several of before ever using up all his Chakra), and I doubt he'd be as familiar with Itachi as Ohnoki would have been with Mū.

The difference must be fairly small if Ohnoki thought it was still the same, then, right?



Strategoob said:


> ...



Please direct me to wherever I claimed that it was only Madara and Tobirama, or stop putting words in my mouth.

The stupidity was _in the event itself for the sake of the plot_. It's no part of my argument that Sasori and Deidara were being stupid themselves.

My argument is that there would need to be an absolutely *massive* discrepancy between Edo Tensei and their living counterparts in order to explain Sai ever being able to pull off everything he did against Sasori and Deidara. We _know_ there is _not_ such a massive disparity because Tobirama himself stated that they were brought back _*virtually at full power*_, not far beneath their full power. Trying to extrapolate it to such an extent that it somehow explains a punk like Sai blitzing Sasori and Deidara is simply not justified. The incident is clearly an outlier, it just plain does not make any sense, period- hence the plot card.


As for Madara's speed boost...just how large of a boost do you think that was exactly? Seriously- I sometimes question whether or not I've forgotten something.

Edo Madara was dancing through the alliance and avoiding Gaara's sand like nobody's business before Ohnoki lightened it. Even with Ay being lightened by Ohnoki's Jutsu to go even faster than he normally does in V2 the Kages still opted to try and first obscure Madara's vision with the Kirigakure no Jutsu.

He was pretty freakin' fast _before_. When he came back to life he did what? He blitzed Sai, yeah (and that hardly shows anything considering his previous displays) but Naruto blocked. Hashirama couldn't move to begin with anyways at that point, and he had benefited even more from absorbing his Senjutsu by the time Sasuke attacked him. I mean it's there but I don't think it's a massive boost.


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 25, 2015)

Madara's performance change was drastic enough for Hashirama to specifically comment on.
It is even more impressive when you consider Madara's lack of magic eyes. 
I mean think about it - ET madara fights ET Hashirama for a good while. Then he gets resurrected and loses his eyes(a big deal for Uchiha). Then he uses basic moves/taijutsu followed by basic elemental ninjutsu... And that was enough for Hashirama see the difference. Plus that performance even after stealing Senjutsu was "Madara's past powers" level. Shit's crazy.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> give me 1 good reason why itachi would be fighting jiriaya in a death match and not start with amaterasu
> or why jiraiya wont drop a toad on his head?
> 
> plot isnt involved in the battledome therefore the mind set is shaky at best.
> ...



With no knowledge, what they perceive as a threat changes, does it not?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 25, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> You know what's sad about Sai's blitz, dear FlamingRain? (not directed to you or somebody specifically). is that if a popular character did that, then the feat would've been valid.
> 
> I was going to put Itachi and Gai there as examples, but i won't because they both are speedesters. Let's put Tsunade, Jiraiya, Base fucking Naruto and Sasuke or even Sakura, because everybody is saying she's pretty fast because she managed to run away a bit before Kaguya killed her, and any other non-speedester doing it, and the feat would be taken very valid here.
> 
> ...



It's slightly more reasonable for a kage class fighter to do something stupid than some guy who's barely done anything and isn't even noted for speed within his class to do something stupid.  I don't see what's dumb about that.  Tsunade at least has a history of Jasoning people who stop looking at her.  Sasuke's kind of a speedster, and Naruto is inconsistent as heck.  Sakura maybe channeled her Sakura vs Sasori self, but all of the above examples slide down the scale of acceptable.  Jiraiya is at least sneaky and can compete against multiple kage class people.  I don't rate sneaking behind Sasori and Deidara as harder than sneaking away from the 6 paths of Pain with one arm when they're right in front of you.  So it's less to do with popularity, and more with general showing and consistency.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I mean it's there but I don't think it's a massive boost.



Still. We see speed/reaction boost when zombies are made alive. And a reaction/speed decrease for zombies when dead. The massiveness was never my point, only that it's a factor.​


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 25, 2015)

It's obvious that Tobirama, or any Edo was on his PRIME. That goes for Nagato too, and I'm not talking only about his legs.

He was shown powerfull than the 6 paths, and his feats got praised by Naruto who fought Pain. And even tho, he isn't at full power.

So, even if u consider a stronger tobirama, u need to do the same when it goes for Nagato.

Both have chances here. Nagato stomps when it comes to power, but Tobirama's skilled ninja. That's why Tobirama can win.

But, I don't see Tobirama winning this match more times than Nagato. It's the other way around. In 10 simulations, Nagato would probably win 7, and Tobirama 3.

In 100, 70 - 30. Something like that.

Also, do u really think that Tobirama's more resistant than the 3 frogs? Okay for me. However, do not forget that Naruto at SM, who's obviously more resistant than Tobirama, showed some pain on his face when he collided with the "Gravity Wall". And it was a normal Shinra Tensei. Ofc, at the next page he says that he is okay, but he has his SM, like I said before.

Now, imagine a ST at the frogs level or a CST one. Do u really think that Tobirama can resist it?

And teleport away? It's sounds difficult guys. Even a excellent sensor like Naruto SM, or Naruto Kyuubi and even Itachi's Mangekyou didn't predict the Shinra Tensei. It's too fast. 

And the CST here it's kinda diffeent from the one used in Konoha. He has his own body, he doesn't need to concentrate his powers in a body, he has everything on him.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2015)

Edo Nagato being faster/stronger than Pain puppets that are remotely controlled with chakra from miles away isn't exactly suprising... that doesn't mean living Nagato wouldn't be faster still.

And it's relevancy in this thread is that some people believe EoS Orochimaru's Edo Tensei surpassed that of Kabuto, meaning that Nagato would get a bit more of a boost when made alive. 

The reason for this being, for the most part, Madara's very notable physical boost, and to a lesser extent, the Edos in the war that performed significantly better in life.

In contrast, Tobirama said that EoS Orochimaru brought him back at almost-full-power, meaning that his boost wouldn't be as drastic. Yet he could control Tobirama easily, but not Hashirama.

... meaning that Edo Tensei is percentage-based, and not a matter of total power, as BM Minato and Hashirama are both several times stronger than Tobirama. ​


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 26, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It wouldn't be for me. If it makes no sense then it makes no sense.



Even if it's as clear as the one Sai did? Because that was the most clear speedblitz i've ever seen in the entire manga. Only surpassed by another, but from a different manga.




> "We" as in _me and you_ or just the BD? I don't think _I_ ever said Tsunade outpaced V2 lightened Ay. I'm actually pretty confident I've posted that Tsunade isn't faster than _any_ incarnation of Ay before.
> 
> I remember saying that she outpaced _Ohnoki_, though.



Oh yeah, you and i debated about her outpacing Onoki. GT and i debated about her outpacing Ei. 



> Maybe I could agree with that line of reasoning if Kakashi hadn't noticed that something was off after seeing Shōten Itachi use Gōkakyū (which I'm pretty sure Itachi could fire off several of before ever using up all his Chakra), and I doubt he'd be as familiar with Itachi as Ohnoki would have been with Mū.
> 
> The difference must be fairly small if Ohnoki thought it was still the same, then, right?



But Itachi is not a man with much stamina, and was sick. Even Zetsu noticed something weird about healthy Itachi. Plus, Itachi had 30% of his original chakra. Edo Mu should've (or could've) been, don't know... 75-80... 90?

Notice that Kisame's jutsus didn't seem weak, even though Neji never saw him before, all he noticed was a huge amount of chaka. The difference should've been the same difference between Edo Tobirama and alive Tobirama. Even though the jump Madara achieved when he revived was very notable.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 26, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's slightly more reasonable for a kage class fighter to do something stupid than some guy who's barely done anything and isn't even noted for speed within his class to do something stupid.  I don't see what's dumb about that.  Tsunade at least has a history of Jasoning people who stop looking at her.  Sasuke's kind of a speedster, and Naruto is inconsistent as heck.  Sakura maybe channeled her Sakura vs Sasori self, but all of the above examples slide down the scale of acceptable.  Jiraiya is at least sneaky and can compete against multiple kage class people.  I don't rate sneaking behind Sasori and Deidara as harder than sneaking away from the 6 paths of Pain with one arm when they're right in front of you.  So it's less to do with popularity, and more with general showing and consistency.



But i didn't mean sneaking. If Sai sneaked behind them, i, at least, wouldn't see a problem with it. The thing is that Sai speedblitzed both while both were talking to him and moved directly.

I put Tsunade as example because she hasn't been noted for speed (only high and impressive jumpings) and i don't think she is capable of speedblitzing shinobis of Deidara and Sasori's caliber. And, of course, because Deidara wasn't blitzed by a Gai that was inches away from his face. But yet, if Deidara and Sasori were looking at Tsunade, Jiraiya, Sasuke, Sakura, they stand up, Deidara yells at them, and they run and move behind the duo, blitzing them... A lot of people would take that as valid, even if said character has never been a speedester.

I put the example of Tsunade because she did something similar, even though the mindset about that changed. At first, everybody believed she outpaced V2 lightened Ei. A faster Ei than the one Naruto had to imitate the yellow flash (who could only achieve that with Hiraishin) to dodge.

Suddenly as it was, a lot of people was behind that. Especially when panels before, Madara called her slower than the Raikage.

I think that if somebody has never shown such speed in a state (angry Sai) and then showcases it, it could be valid. But when somebody has been noted as slow (not being directed at any kage) and suddenly showcases amazing speed in only one panel and never again, then that's kind of weird. But well, i am on the side of Edos being weaker, specially Nagato, because i doubt that a fake Rinnegan would pack as much power as the real one.

To put it in a question: if Mei suddenly does what Sai did, being a kage and all, and then base Naruto does it without clones and trickery, no sneaky attacks, just running and jumping to them, just a simple blitz. Wich one do you think would be valid and wich one do you think would be plot, for most of the people?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 26, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> With no knowledge, what they perceive as a threat changes, does it not?




he doesnt need to have knowledge on nagato specific abilities to know if he sees a rinnegan he should be pulling out his very best stuff

i dont need to know that a huge 6.5ft person is a boxer for me to be more careful fighting him than say someone who is 5.5. doesnt mean the 5.5 guy is weaker but looks less dangerous. 

gaara had no specific knowledge of Muu or gengetsu abilities. he still went to fight Muu because *HE THOUGHT MUU WAS STRONGER!!* despite everything in the manga putting them as equals
to which gengetsu said u went after him because he looked stronger right. 

i guess that pretty much seals my argument

you dont need to know who raikage is to be more careful when facing him than say darui based on how both of them come off. thats basic common sense

neji would appear more dangerous than say asuma because he looks it. same way no one is going on a base taijutus exchange with kimimaro if he comes at them with bones. despite them havin no knowledge beyond what they are seeing of his abilities


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 26, 2015)

You're talking about how Tobirama will react to Nagato's rinnegan, when I was talking about how Nagato will react to random ninja in blue armor.

You can look at Chouji and assume he's strong and slow, and decide to avoid taijutsu.  You can't look at Sakura and assume she's strong and slow, and decide to avoid taijutsu.  Not until she blows up a mountain.  

Here's an example from the manga.  That 20 Kagebunshin guy didn't know the blonde guy he was facing was Minato until he got soloed.  If he had the *KNOWLEDGE* he was facing Minato, he would have fled on sight.


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 26, 2015)

Would Nagato remember Tobirama's face from the Hokage Great Stone Faces?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You're talking about how Tobirama will react to Nagato's rinnegan, when I was talking about how Nagato will react to random ninja in blue armor.
> 
> You can look at Chouji and assume he's strong and slow, and decide to avoid taijutsu.  You can't look at Sakura and assume she's strong and slow, and decide to avoid taijutsu.  Not until she blows up a mountain.
> 
> Here's an example from the manga.  That 20 Kagebunshin guy didn't know the blonde guy he was facing was Minato until he got soloed.  If he had the *KNOWLEDGE* he was facing Minato, he would have fled on sight.



nagato will react accordingly  
 tobirama going all out will prompt nagato to do the same quite obviously 

nagato isnt going to see someone summoning the undead and take it easy on said person. especially when said person is going about teleporting. common its common sense!!! 

thats entirely true about sakura. however she will reveal herself and tell any ninja all they need to know by the first move she makes which will have them act accordingly.
right about chouji which was my point btw

entirely true. but here we arent putting fodders against actual ninja. these are 2 high level ninja where fleeing isnt as option. and where tobirama will go all out. so why would nagato  hold back seeing tobirama come at him in earnest


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2015)

I think Nagato should know who Tobirama is, with the knowledge invested in Akatsuki and being paired with Obito, who knew a lot.

That and seeing his hokage face in the monument.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

regardless of nagato knowign if he sees tobirama use edo tensei 
nagato will go all out quite obviously since he will know tobirama isnt to be messed with. that jutsu puts tobirama at kage level even if he couldnt throw a punch
nagato isnt messing with someone who can pull of their version of a rinnegan jutsu. 6 paths of pain jutsu or the outer path to be more precise reminds me alot of edo tensei. rinne tensei edo tensei 

no way nagato sees that and decides imma hold back. he goes ape shit the second that comes out


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2015)

Well, yeah.

To add... Nagato can sense chakra even if he is not active (?) while doing that, justl ike he felt Itachi using Amaterasu. If he senses Tobirama's inmense chakra, enough to crack a wall, he won't mess around. Just like Madara felt Hashirama's presence, Tobirama has his own, even if it's not as towering as his brother's.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

yh there is that
even tsunade who isnt a sensor felt deva path presence as well as chakra level


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 27, 2015)

The Face on the Monument argument works really well for people who live inside Konoha.  



Mostly it does, anyway.  I might agree with you anyway if he had manga knowledge or reputation.  But he has no knowledge on his opponent except what he gathers in battle.  

The only time Nagato ever used the mazo was when he went insane over the death of his friend, and we know that because he wasn't emaciated entering that fight.  Hokage hype also doesn't mean as much, because Nagato decided to take on Jiraiya with 3 bodies, and was going to challenge Tsunade with just Deva until she enraged him.  That's two kages he didn't go ape over just because of hype and rep.  He didn't even go ape against Hanzo in their second encounter.  Three kages.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2015)

Naruto and Gai are the only ones in Konoha that might not remember Tobirama, or might only do a comment like that. I laughed a lot in that part .


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 27, 2015)

Pain is great at hiding and detecting and mixing chakra signals.  That much is true, and it's essential for his Pain broadcasting to work.  He couldn't be back traced by Inoichi, and his rain jutsu could detect Jiraiya's foreign chakra to moment it fell on him.  But I think you put too much stock into Nagato the sensor.  He still couldn't sense if Naruto was in the village or not, and he needed Konan to manually scout out who and where Jiraiya was in Rain village.  Both Naruto and Jiraiya have huge chakra signatures, enough for Sage Mode, Jiraiya's of which he should be intimately familiar, and Naruto has the unmistakable tint of the 9 Tails chakra.  But instead of sensing, he manually interrogated people one by one until he learned Naruto wasn't in the village.  Backtracing the edo broadcast falls perfectly in line with his sensory skills.  Sensing Tobirama's base chakra and deciding to go crazy does not.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2015)

Pain could not detect Naruto because the dead bodies cannot sense. But as much as i remember, he would've never sensed Naruto because he was in another world.

Pain found Jiraiya either way. Unless Konan had some tracking device. 

And Nagato not only sensed Kabuto, he sensed the build up in Itachi's eyes before he used a jutsu, something explained by Juubi Jin Obito when Sasuek tried to use Amaterasu, as he said he could sense the build up in Sasuke's eyes and counter his jutsu. Literally the same thing Nagato did, with enough time to warn and for Bee to throw a blade. That's a sensing feat that wouldn't ve been possible to him if he only sensed chakra via proxys connected to him.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 27, 2015)

The dead bodies can't sense, but Nagato himself was just outside the village.  That's probably not nearly as far as he was away from Kabuto's cave.

Nagato himself was also inside his own village, and very, very close to Jiraiya, who was walking towards him the entire time.

Nagato looked at the build up in Itachi's eyes with his rinnegan.  The same way he saw Tsunade and the ANBU keeping chakra charged in their feet, and the same way he saw the barrier around Konoha.  Though he can't see through smokebombs or dirtclouds or henge.

You could say that Nagato can't sense or do non-Pain related abilities when he's hooked up to the Gedo Mazo, but that's weird since obviously he can still do the rain jutsu and other sensor related abilities, and then he also makes barriers and set up seals and does other non-Pain related jutsu through the series.  So he'd have to really specifically not be able to regular sense.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 27, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The dead bodies can't sense, but Nagato himself was just outside the village.  That's probably not nearly as far as he was away from Kabuto's cave.



They can't because this technique it's not a Rinnegan jutsu. Naruto was also in a place where he couldn't be sensed. Nagato's only choice was looking for him.



> Nagato himself was also inside his own village, and very, very close to Jiraiya, who was walking towards him the entire time.



As much as i recall, he sent Konan after Jiraiya and went to the room of bodies before going after them. How could've he found Konan and Jiraiya if he needed her to do it without being able to do it himself too?


> Nagato looked at the build up in Itachi's eyes with his rinnegan.  The same way he saw Tsunade and the ANBU keeping chakra charged in their feet, and the same way he saw the barrier around Konoha.  Though he can't see through smokebombs or dirtclouds or henge.



Nagato was behind Itachi. He couldn't have seen Itachi's eyes. He himself said he could sense it, as he felt the pressure in Itachi's eyes (1). This would've not been possible without sensing. Obscuring field of vision also works, but Kabuto never knew he could sense chakra. Even then, i guess Kabuto mentioned that Nagato only lost because he couldn't move very well. Something weird then panels before he moved behind Killer Bee and towards Naruto with ease.

Itachi's and Kabuto's comment also implies that what Nagato did was sense Kabuto's chakra, not track his location without any kind of sensing ability.



> You could say that Nagato can't sense or do non-Pain related abilities when he's hooked up to the Gedo Mazo, but that's weird since obviously he can still do the rain jutsu and other sensor related abilities, and then he also makes barriers and set up seals and does other non-Pain related jutsu through the series.  So he'd have to really specifically not be able to regular sense.



Actually, but who says the bodies are what senses in the rain jutsu? They can be capable of summoning a rain, but Nagato can be the one that senses, not dead bodies that doesn't feel pain. Nagato only sees through them, sends chakra through them. Sensing is not something that you can learn from another person like a ninjutsu. It's something that works as a body function and all that. Nagato's Pain doesn't have senses.

Otherwise Onoki would've learned that from Mu. But you can learn to use barriers and seals, because that's ninjutsu that only requires you to learn how it works and doesn't need to give your senses an extra ability.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The dead bodies can't sense, but Nagato himself was just outside the village.  That's probably not nearly as far as he was away from Kabuto's cave.
> 
> Nagato himself was also inside his own village, and very, very close to Jiraiya, who was walking towards him the entire time.
> 
> ...



i get what your saying but canon makes him a sensor in every sense of the word. therefore he will sense tobirama chakra level and respond accordingly


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 27, 2015)

I wasn't talking about Pain bodies, I said real Nagato was around and he couldn't sense Jiraiya or Naruto.  Naruto was off somewhere, but he couldn't even confirm that Naruto wasn't in the village.

Pain body found Jiraiya and Konan because Konan told him where they were.  

I never said Nagato had no sensory type abilities.  I said he very clearly did.

What's weirder is that Nagato the complete and total sensor in every sense of the word had no idea where Itachi was or what he was doing when he got ambushed by him.  Sensing might not be as exact as vision, but a ST on the chakra signiture crashing behind you doesn't need precision.

Anyway, I don't see why Nagato's rinnegan can't see chakra building up in Itachi.  Itachi's sharingan could see when Sasuke was running out of chakra.  That makes more sense than Nagato spontaneously can and can't and does and doesn't sense chakra if an whenever sometimes.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

i understand
then nagato sees tobirama chakra and realizes he should flaten him 
ze end


----------



## Bonly (Mar 27, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> One of these days I should respond to Bonly.







The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Can and will the Prime Nagato use the strategy/tools/jutsu he need to win before the opponent uses the strategy/tools/jutsu they need to defeat that character?
> 
> I don't think so, but I don't really know Nagato's mind.  So what to do...  One could say they don't know who wins, because Prime Nagato matches are inherently missing vital information to qualify as a good match up to discuss.  They stop short of being able to draw a meaningful conclusion with any confidence, because every action and combination of jutsu has about the same probability of being used at any point in the match.



From what it seems Prime Nagato is in the same boat as "Healthy Itachi". Most people just use what we've seen from Itachi and assume he won't spit out some blood, isn't as blind as his fight against Sasuke and some think he may be a tad(or alot depending on the person) faster. It seems that Prime Nagato is basically a walking Nagato Edo Nagato who has all the jutsu he's shown as an Edo as well as when using the six paths. His mindset for the most part should be the same as he's shown since Jiraiya fought his paths, at least that's how I see most people look at him so for me it's not really hard to think about his matches to much.



> Or they could say probably Tobirama wins, because Nagato probably won't start with his life endangering moves and multi-path combinations off the bat, and leave the burden of proof on Nagato and his supporters to show he will do these things, since they should side with the evidence. Certainly if the battle drags on, you can give Nagato the benefit of the doubt that he'll start to get creative, or use his more powerful jutsu.  I like this option, because it's conservative, and runs the least risk over overestimating or scripting battles.



The burden of proof would fall on the one who makes the claim which wouldn't mean it's always on the Nagato supporter(s). For example if you go back and read , you'll see that I just simply mention that Nagato can use the Gedo to use soul rip from a distance which is basically me just saying "hey POW your wrong in saying Nagato has to get in close to stop Edo" but I never said he will use it for sure or mention a point in time he'd summon it if he did chose to. But when you look at you're reply to me on said point, *You*  so in a case like this wouldn't the burden of proof fall on you? 



> Or, one could try to prove Tobirama can definitely defeat every jutsu and possible combination of jutsu every iterations of Prime Nagato might be able to do.  If Tobirama can do that, he can definitely win, which is basically what every Nagato fanboy insists you do, and no one wants to get negged in the library for that again.  I'm _so_ sick of getting negged by Itachi fans for being a Nagato fanboy...  But it's a stupid approach, because we aren't talking about characters fighting or how the match might play out with these conditions in the manga.  We're picking better movesets with no regard to the characters who own them or the conditions they're placed in, and that's not the question being asked.



Well that's how some people are sadly. Not everyone looks at how a character would fight based on the conditions and they would just assume the character would act how they think is the best way for said character to act. Though I doubt you're getting negged by Itachi fans as it's more likely that you're just under a genjutsu. Personally I blame Rocky for this


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 28, 2015)

Healthy Itachi is not on the same boat as Edo Nagato .



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Anyway, I don't see why Nagato's rinnegan can't see chakra building up in Itachi.  Itachi's sharingan could see when Sasuke was running out of chakra.  That makes more sense than Nagato spontaneously can and can't and does and doesn't sense chakra if an whenever sometimes.



It's because of his comment, actually. He thought "This pressure...!" wich is related to feeling or sensing rather than seeing. If he didn't sense it or feel it, he wouldn't have said that and would've said "That build of chakra!" or "He is building chakra in his eye..." and then warn Naruto.

I think Kishimoto would go that route if he wanted to clarify that the Rinnegan could see the chakra inside a person (As much as i recall, we only saw that when Madara saw Gai's), or at least, would've been more clear with it.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

juubito also saw sasuke chakra build up before sasuke used amaterasu


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 28, 2015)

> Personally I blame Rocky for this


I typed your name as Rocky twice in my first response.  I looked through for typos and thought, "Why am I responding to Rocky when I'm talking to Bonly?"


----------

